# Can't we all just get along? ...LOL



## Mike Lauer

The sport vs. protection element seems to pop up in every venue discussion
"I don't want a dog that would bite a person" "I want to know if he would bite a person"

There seems to be 2 groups out there
1. those that want realistic hidden equipment scenarios
2. Those that don't

can we accept that it is great that in America there are arena's for each to play in, and the debate of which is right or wrong is irrelevant. 
We have fast pitch and slow pitch softball, steel dart and soft tip, IRL and Nascar, NFL and Arena football

pick the one you like to do it, but why must the others be bashed?

is there competition over new recruits?
seems to me there is enough difference between the sports the same people wouldn't them all

is it self esteem issues? 
I don't mean this insulting but does dog training attract Type A personalities who would compete over who can pee the farthest if left alone

What is it?


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## susan tuck

You said a mouthful - works for me, brother!


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## Harry Keely

I personally agree with Mike, it might not be your cup of tea but might be somebody elses. As long as people are working there dogs whatever it may be and not letting thm collect dust and get ruined then thats all that should matter right. Bravo Mike


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## Carol Boche

Mike Lauer said:


> The sport vs. protection element seems to pop up in every venue discussion
> "I don't want a dog that would bite a person" "I want to know if he would bite a person"
> 
> There seems to be 2 groups out there
> 1. those that want realistic hidden equipment scenarios
> 2. Those that don't
> 
> can we accept that it is great that in America there are arena's for each to play in, and the debate of which is right or wrong is irrelevant.
> We have fast pitch and slow pitch softball, steel dart and soft tip, IRL and Nascar, NFL and Arena football
> 
> pick the one you like to do it, but why must the others be bashed?
> 
> is there competition over new recruits?
> seems to me there is enough difference between the sports the same people wouldn't them all
> 
> is it self esteem issues?
> I don't mean this insulting but does dog training attract Type A personalities who would compete over who can pee the farthest if left alone
> 
> What is it?


I agree....BUT....if someone wants to bait you into a pissing contest....you don't have to join in.....pretty hard for some people (even me at times).


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## Jennifer Marshall

Sport is sport, no matter if it has "realistic" scenarios that include hidden equipment, or not. I just have personal reasons about what I will and won't teach my dogs and instead of saying "I would never train that." or "I think its stupid" I will explain why I personally wouldn't teach X or Y exercises.

Like everybody I do have opinions and will toss them out, if someone agrees they agree, if they don't ... they don't. If I have questions because I don't understand something, I'll ask them. If I have suggestions, I'll throw those in, too.

I respect that people will train their dogs for the venue they prefer. Even if in some cases I don't understand why someone would want to participate in PP or a certain sport, I don't have to do it so I let it be. I don't think it is bad to have dogs or train dogs that will actually bite someone, as long as the training is not cruel, stupid, or create unstable animals.

I have a breed that is subject to BSL so I don't want video or pictures or discussion of my dog doing things that require hidden equipment that could be used against me, my dog, or the breed. It is easier to explain sport work with sleeves and suits, but eyebrows are raised when the point of the exercise takes away those explainable items. 

Most people don't have a clue that dog sports other than obedience and agility even exist. The people that do the most harm in promoting BSL and getting laws passed about "dangerous" dogs are those people. They don't know what Mondioring or French Ring or PSA or KNPV or NVBK (et etc) are, they are not open minded to discussion about why we train dogs to do these things. These people are blind to the fact that untrained or poorly trained dogs in the hands of stupid, ignorant, or cruel people are the real problem. The more dangerous a sport looks to someone who doesn't have a clue, the worse it is for the dogs and people participating. And so I will just refrain from doing certain things.

Everybody takes a risk when they train for sports that involve bitework. I train Mondioring and I accept that some people won't understand the difference between biting a suit and biting a person. I am only trying to reduce the number of things I train my dogs for that can be taken out of context by ignorant people. Doesn't mean I am not at risk or that I don't add to the pool of stuff people might look at and scream about being "dangerous." 

I won't bash someone for choosing to train their dog in a sport that is different from the one I train for and I agree that it is silly to do so. I am glad that people actually train their dogs and I respect the time and effort they put into that training. I may have strong opinions and be long winded with my explainations (like now) but I try to be open minded


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## Nicole Stark

Carol Boche said:


> I agree....BUT....if someone wants to bait you into a pissing contest....you don't have to join in.....pretty hard for some people (even me at times).


Me too! I like to play rough, there's a little bit of the devil in me I guess [-( I tend to play nicer watching from the sidelines and punting back in the ball once in a while. Just giving myself shizit. It's Friday!!


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## susan tuck

Oh please! Are we going down that road again? People need to act like adults and just stop the silly "my dog/sport/breed/whatever is better than yours" baiting in the first place.


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## Lynda Myers

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Sport is sport, no matter if it has "realistic" scenarios that include hidden equipment, or not. I just have personal reasons about what I will and won't teach my dogs and instead of saying "I would never train that." or "I think its stupid" I will explain why I personally wouldn't teach X or Y exercises.
> 
> Like everybody I do have opinions and will toss them out, if someone agrees they agree, if they don't ... they don't. If I have questions because I don't understand something, I'll ask them. If I have suggestions, I'll throw those in, too.
> 
> I respect that people will train their dogs for the venue they prefer. Even if in some cases I don't understand why someone would want to participate in PP or a certain sport, I don't have to do it so I let it be. I don't think it is bad to have dogs or train dogs that will actually bite someone, as long as the training is not cruel, stupid, or create unstable animals.
> 
> I have a breed that is subject to BSL so I don't want video or pictures or discussion of my dog doing things that require hidden equipment that could be used against me, my dog, or the breed. It is easier to explain sport work with sleeves and suits, but eyebrows are raised when the point of the exercise takes away those explainable items.
> 
> Most people don't have a clue that dog sports other than obedience and agility even exist. The people that do the most harm in promoting BSL and getting laws passed about "dangerous" dogs are those people. They don't know what Mondioring or French Ring or PSA or KNPV or NVBK (et etc) are, they are not open minded to discussion about why we train dogs to do these things. These people are blind to the fact that untrained or poorly trained dogs in the hands of stupid, ignorant, or cruel people are the real problem. The more dangerous a sport looks to someone who doesn't have a clue, the worse it is for the dogs and people participating. And so I will just refrain from doing certain things.
> 
> Everybody takes a risk when they train for sports that involve bitework. I train Mondioring and I accept that some people won't understand the difference between biting a suit and biting a person. I am only trying to reduce the number of things I train my dogs for that can be taken out of context by ignorant people. Doesn't mean I am not at risk or that I don't add to the pool of stuff people might look at and scream about being "dangerous."
> 
> I won't bash someone for choosing to train their dog in a sport that is different from the one I train for and I agree that it is silly to do so. I am glad that people actually train their dogs and I respect the time and effort they put into that training. I may have strong opinions and be long winded with my explainations (like now) but I try to be open minded


Jennifer you said a mouthful right there, I agree with what you have said. Most on here may not understand truly how tight the rope is that bulldoggers have to walk, simply because their breeds are not under such heavy scrutiny. If and when a bull breed bites it sells papers and boost ratings...those are the sad sad facts. Rarely does the media take into accounts the whys of the situation.


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## Bob Scott

Carol Boche said:


> I agree....BUT....if someone wants to bait you into a pissing contest....you don't have to join in.....pretty hard for some people (even me at times).


That's something I scratch my head over all the time. 
"The words of a fool offend only another fool"! ;-)
Ego, insecurity, need to dominate, need to be noticed, attention getting. 
All the above!


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## Joby Becker

Carol. It's a threshold thing.:twisted:


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## Michelle Reusser

Bob Scott said:


> That's something I scratch my head over all the time.
> "The words of a fool offend only another fool"! ;-)
> Ego, insecurity, need to dominate, need to be noticed, attention getting.
> All the above!


 
Bob, your just mad cause I can pee farther than you!


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## Bob Scott

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Bob, your just mad cause I can pee farther than you!



Hell, that ain't hard to do. I'm old ya know! :lol:;-)


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## Don Turnipseed

Actually, no, everyone can't get along because to many take anything said personally when it isn't. It isn't ego Bob, it's insecurity. Just mention POS dogs and half the people will fall apart because you just have to be talking about their dog.


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## Diana Abel

I totally agree Mike. I say each to his own. It would be pretty boring if everyone liked & did the same thing, wouldnt it? If everyone spent as much time and money as we do on our dogs, there would be a lot of happy & healthy dogs in this world.


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## Howard Gaines III

Missed a group, Law Enforcement.


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## Howard Gaines III

susan tuck said:


> Oh please! Are we going down that road again? People need to act like adults and just stop the silly "my dog/sport/breed/whatever is better than yours" baiting in the first place.


 I agree, baiting for a BS thread session. TOPIC PLEASE. Now where's that cure dog of mine?!:twisted:


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## David Frost

Howard Gaines III said:


> Missed a group, Law Enforcement.


That would be a tough one. There are members of LE in different sports. I don't know of any LE in PP except for a couple that actually offer PP training. My assistant was involved in schutzhund. I, while not involved, have been very interested in FR. I don't make fun of or denigrate other peoples pleasures though. I figure it's none of my business. Besides, among many in LE there are some serious divides on disciplines, ie b/h v. f.b - ORT v non ORT - should ecollars be worn on duty or not, among others. Those can become quite involved discussions.

DFrost


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## will fernandez

I think what gets people riled up is when people try to make fantastic claims about one venue or the other.


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## Carol Boche

> Oh please! Are we going down that road again? People need to act like adults and just stop the silly "my dog/sport/breed/whatever is better than yours" baiting in the first place.





> I agree, baiting for a BS thread session. TOPIC PLEASE. Now where's that cure dog of mine?!:twisted:


:roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I don't mean this insulting but does dog training attract Type A personalities who would compete over who can pee the farthest if left alone

Oh God no. It attracts followers and control freaks and all levels of the above. If there were real leaders in the dog sport world, most of the people on this board would be back geeking out to anime.

I like training dogs about half the time I am doing it. LOL If dog sport was more about the dogs and less about power issues and silly positioning, we would be better off.

I like to argue. Always have. If you cannot keep up with the discussion, or have to get all butt hurt about it, then I dismiss you outright. I look at those people as the wannabees. Worthless and weak. There are many many out there that cannot handle criticism of their work. I have seen grown men pout because I do not want to do things their way. I have been put against, because I feel that titles should be earned, and shitters have no place at the higher levels just because we have better training methods, and it is "so and so's dog.

I watched a shitter get a MR3. THe decoy could have held this piece of shit off indefinately, but was told to "let her in". WHen that happens, I lose it. 

I have met, and have good friends that are PP people. They know what they are selling, and it is business. They got tired of training a dog for free. However, they don't run off at the mouth like so many about how "real" the dog is. They know when the dog will do the job, and they know when they need to sell a pretty house pet that will bite a sleeve, and is good around the house and with children.

In real life, I could give a shit less about what sport anyone does. I know the logistical nightmare that doing sport can be, and it is easier to just go and do the sport that is local, especially when you are new to trianing.

It is fun to torture PP people a bit, I especially like when people melt down when my idea of a strong dog and their idea is not even close. Especially when they want to breed sleeve sucking fat pieces of shit, or worse. I REALLY hate that. AND of course, they are people that will go against you as hard as they can if you do not see how wonderful their dogs are.

I also in "real life" think that you should train the dog you have, if at all possible, and plan for another. That is another reason I go after shitter breeders with their stupid "beginning dog" bullshit. I feel if you are gonna advertise your idiocy, then it should be up for discussion. 

All in all, I do not see "togetherness" being something that will ever go on in the dogsport/PP world. To many nervebags, too many shitters and a HELL of a lot of politicians.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> All in all, I do not see "togetherness" being something that will ever go on in the dogsport/PP world. To many nervebags, too many shitters and a HELL of a lot of politicians.


Well said Jeff and I agree. I meet plenty of nervebags and shitters every day... mostly people, but plenty of dogs too.


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## maggie fraser

Quote; _does dog training attract Type A personalities who would compete over who can pee the farthest if left alone_


I've wondered about this from time to time, I had come up with it being possibly the nature of the sport/discipline ie. bite work. It seems that some folks are much better at biting than the dogs....could be because it's easy for a nobody to get a dog and then be a somebody.... that's my theory LOL


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## susan tuck

What an EGO!!!!!! No one gives a shit whether or not you dismiss them. In order to give a shit about your "dismissal" they would have to first give a damn about what you think. People just get sick and tired of the childish bullshit. There is a difference between an intelligent discussion of opposing viewpoints and a pissing match with someone who feels he must resort to name calling and personal attacks - every time someone holds a different opinion. This is not a productive back & forth it's the devolving of conversation, tiresome and boring. My mother taught me never get in a stink fight with a skunk, so I'm done with this thread.


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## Jim Nash

I don't even see this as an us against them thing . I see all this same nasty stuff amongst dog people in there own , Sport , PPD and PSD field . Hell , it's seems to be pervasive in anything involving dogs . 

I've been to Sport clubs , talked to PPD folks and certainly had my fair share of dealing with PSD folks at seminars and competitions .

I think it's ego , competitiveness , insecurity and for others it's the defensiveness of their dogs true abilities . Emotions (bonding , etc. ) run huge with anything involving dogs . 

It's interesting being a stranger at clubs , certifications , seminars and competitions . The amount of backstabbing amongst the folks that know , train and compete with each other is incredible . The worst I ever saw was at an AKC GSD show trial . 

Now , I've met some great people and learned alot of things from them and others I didn't like so much either . I've also had great times at many of these events outside of witnessing these petty things . But truely if it wasn't for the love of actually working my dog/s and seeing the awesome things they do after alot of hard work , I don't think I'd be doing this .


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## Carol Boche

Jim, 
Just wait til you get here in a couple weeks.....gonna be FUN,FUN, FUN!!!!

Had to get the last word......AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Susan, did you say something ?? I think you were dismissed. Ignore function is always available.


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Susan, did you say something ?? I think you were dismissed. Ignore function is always available.


I guess you'll never learn. I feel sorry for you if you actually believe you were kicked off the board because people can't take your amazing brand of truth. I guess letting you back on was good for one thing - a laugh, because you truly are a joke.


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## Howard Gaines III

susan tuck said:


> ... My mother taught me never get in a stink fight with a skunk, so I'm done with this thread.


I have never heard this line before and love it. This morning, I almost hit a dead skunk on the road and with a CLEAN truck! [-o<

David, I understand what you say here, makes sense to me.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Susan, did you say something ?? I think you were dismissed. Ignore function is always available.


Hang on there Jeff. Me and Susan reconciled. She is off limits. You will have to pick on someone else.

Susan darlin, I can't keep coming to your rescue like this. Everytime there is a thread where people are butting heads, you seem to be in the middle of it. Even I am beginning to wonder if you really find them that objectionable. I want you to try and stay out of this stuff because I may not always be there for you.


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## susan tuck

Don you definetly are a smooooooooooooth talker, sexy. I'll listen to you any day!


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## Candy Eggert

susan tuck said:


> Don you definetly are a smooooooooooooth talker, sexy. I'll listen to you any day!


Oh my ;-) Another WDF match made in heaven \\/ You GO kids!! 

Now see what having a sense of humor does for one's mood ;-)~ I'm liking it alot!


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## Carol Boche

Oh boy.....more chum in the water.......

really????


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## Don Turnipseed

susan tuck said:


> Don you definetly are a smooooooooooooth talker, sexy. I'll listen to you any day!


Darlin...is that you? I gotta say, I like it when you let your hair down.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I guess she just cannot bring herself to put me on ignore. You know she loves me.


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## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I guess she just cannot bring herself to put me on ignore. You know she loves me.



=;=;=;

Why is it that people can't use the ignore button anyway....I have it on two people now....LOL


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I guess she just cannot bring herself to put me on ignore. You know she loves me.


I still have a black mark in my arm from a pencil wound in grade school, ya..she had it for me bad, doubt if she remembers tho :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I often wonder that. If I am such an egotistical bastard like she says, then why would she want to see what I am saying at all ?? After all, according to her, I just speak nonsense. 

So just hit that ignore button. That way you don't see me at all.


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## Al Curbow

Jim, i think you hit the nail on the head!


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## Al Curbow

Oh yeah, a big congratulations to Don and Susan on the reconciliation! Hope you two kids make a go of it this time!


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## Chiat Joon

Do you guys want a dog or Universal Soldier?


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## susan tuck

Candy I have a great sense of humor which is why I don't put Jeff on ignore. \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen

She just cannot admit that she needs the conflict.


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## Michelle Reusser

I wouldn't put anyone on ignore, then you have gaps in your thread and shit doesn't make sense. Besides a person I want to choke one day, has me laughing my ass off the next.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jim Nash said:


> I don't even see this as an us against them thing . I see all this same nasty stuff amongst dog people in there own , Sport , PPD and PSD field . Hell , it's seems to be pervasive in anything involving dogs ...


So if we're doing such a great job of wacking our own kind with the plastic bat of hate, how do you think the none working dog folk view us? As a batch of freaking nuts! 

We can either sell our total sport/WD interest to its fullest, or then again by our collective actions the outside world can say, "See they can't even make their own interests work, how are we to view them with any real respect?"


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## Jim Nash

In my experiance Howard I don't see people outside working dogs (sport , PPD) giving 2 sh**s what we do as long as it doesn't effect their daily life and I don't think there are too many that are even aware of the fact we can't get along at times . 

For PSD's it's a little different but I don't think the fact that we may not get along with each other inside the PSD field at times is one of the things they care about . It's how and why we use our dogs . JME .


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> For PSD's it's a little different but I don't think the fact that we may not get along with each other inside the PSD field at times is one of the things they care about . It's how and why we use our dogs . JME .


I could never agree with that ------- oh wait, yes I do. Never mind.

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I wouldn't put anyone on ignore, then you have gaps in your thread and shit doesn't make sense. Besides a person I want to choke one day, has me laughing my ass off the next.


I agree with your sentiments entirely. But when some eejits nark me on here, I take "time-out". I refuse to let these ignorant people ruin an otherwise excellent forum.

A lot of members talk about the alpha dog that doesn't let itself be bothered by the rif-raff. How about taking a page out of its canine "bible"?

Susan Tuck: My Mum taught me about skunks, too!!! An invaluable lesson....


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## Howard Gaines III

Jim Nash said:


> In my experiance Howard I don't see people outside working dogs (sport , PPD) giving 2 sh**s what we do as long as it doesn't effect their daily life and I don't think there are too many that are even aware of the fact we can't get along at times .
> 
> For PSD's it's a little different but I don't think the fact that we may not get along with each other inside the PSD field at times is one of the things they care about . It's how and why we use our dogs . JME .


 Makes sense here Jim...


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## Michelle Reusser

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree with your sentiments entirely. But when some eejits nark me on here, I take "time-out". I refuse to let these ignorant people ruin an otherwise excellent forum.
> 
> A lot of members talk about the alpha dog that doesn't let itself be bothered by the rif-raff. How about taking a page out of its canine "bible"?
> 
> Susan Tuck: My Mum taught me about skunks, too!!! An invaluable lesson....


I was going to say the same myself Gillian, I just take myself out of the equation until I can deal again.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I was going to say the same myself Gillian, I just take myself out of the equation until I can deal again.

This is the reason dogsports in this country suck. Too many people JUST LIKE THIS.

Emotional wrecks with insecurity issues large enough to drive trucks through. Bi polar nightmares where the rest of us have to tread lightly or they will cry to mommy, or worse just don't know their place, and won't shut the **** up.

You are just being used as an example, mind you a good one, but just as an example.


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## susan tuck

One day, you will wake up and realize how much you embarrass yourself just about every time you open your mouth. The only emotional wreck here is you. You weren't given a time out because people can't handle your opinions. You were given a time out (like the baby you are) because of your bullshit piss poor attitude.Like when you go off on your ridiculous tantrums just because people disagree with you. Grow up and get over yourself. Wake up, Jeff because in fact the rest of the world is not crazy, it really is you. Mommies tell all their little boys they are the greatest - but that sure doesn't make it true.


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## Lee H Sternberg

susan tuck said:


> One day, you will wake up and realize how much you embarrass yourself just about every time you open your mouth. The only emotional wreck here is you. You weren't given a time out because people can't handle your opinions. You were given a time out (like the baby you are) because of your bullshit piss poor attitude.Like when you go off on your ridiculous tantrums just because people disagree with you. Grow up and get over yourself. Wake up, Jeff because in fact the rest of the world is not crazy, it really is you. Mommies tell all their little boys they are the greatest - but that sure doesn't make it true.


Wow, Susan! Don't have a heart attack over this. Calm down and eat a hot dog.\\/


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## Howard Gaines III

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Wow, Susan! Don't have a heart attack over this. Calm down and eat a hot dog.\\/


 LEE! You haven't seen the news? Hotdogs have been proven to be hazardous and to kids, it was on the TV the other day. Kids choking on them...if parents watched their kids, cut the hotdog into smaller sizes, kids wouldn't expire by a weiner! Not trying to see Susan check out on us are you?


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## susan tuck

I do know a few people who's dog training knowledge is so vast that if they were to act as rude and bitchy as Jeff (which would really surprise me by the way) it would be worth overlooking his kind of crap for the most part. The problem is Jeff just ain't one of them. He wants everyone to believe this is all about people not being able to handle the "truth", that this is everyone else's problem, not his, but what he can't seem to get through his thick skull is he just isn't that special.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Howard Gaines III said:


> LEE! You haven't seen the news? Hotdogs have been proven to be hazardous and to kids, it was on the TV the other day. Kids choking on them...if parents watched their kids, cut the hotdog into smaller sizes, kids wouldn't expire by a weiner! Not trying to see Susan check out on us are you?


I know, Howard. I have a thread going on hot dogs.


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## Howard Gaines III

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I know, Howard. I have a thread going on hot dogs.


 Sorry didn't see it, must be blind.


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## David Frost

Seems some have a hard time getting along in a thread about getting along.

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III

David Frost said:


> Seems some have a hard time getting along in a thread about getting along.
> 
> DFrost


 AHHHHH! Your cop skills at work David, you're good! O


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## Don Turnipseed

Hey, what the heck did you do to Susan's posts???
She's hot when she gets wound up like that!!! I think this reconciliation has real potential.


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## susan tuck

Jeff you remind me of that old commercial about doctors, change a few words and it could be your tag line:

"I'M NOT A REAL DOG TRAINER, I JUST PLAY ONE ON THE INTERNET"


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## David Frost

Howard Gaines III said:


> AHHHHH! Your cop skills at work David, you're good! O


Must be all those hours of observation training.

DFrost


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## Guest

I see this thread getting locked in 3...2...1.... LOL


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## Carol Boche

Jody Butler said:


> I see this thread getting locked in 3...2...1.... LOL


I HOPE so......this is f*****g REEEEDICKYOULUS...........:-D=D>


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## Guest

Carol Boche said:


> I HOPE so......this is f*****g REEEEDICKYOULUS...........:-D=D>


 
I really needed to laugh today and this helped so thanks


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## Carol Boche

LOL Jody, you are welcome. 

I have to admit, I like everyone here, even the ones who aggravate me at times, I "get over" things pretty fast since there are always going to be disagreements. We all have something to contribute, whether it is training, humor, truth, mistakes we have made or otherwise. 

I try to stay out of this stuff....and it is hard sometimes....but I have to remember that it's "not my bitch" sometimes. 

Neither Jeff nor Susan need any help with bantering back and forth, they are just fine by themselves.


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## David Frost

Not yet, but it's getting close. I think there are still some adults that may want to post on this thread.

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed

I thought Susan was a hotter when she was talking down in the dirt....Then some do gooder came along and cleaned up her posts. Ya got to admit, some women are just sexy when they let their hair down.
I was thinking....isn't it about time for a "Can't we all get along II, LOL, LOL" thread? That Mike Laur sure knows how to get it started while he sits back and looks totally innocent.


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## Joby Becker

Kumbaya....

Peace Love and Happiness for ALL!

[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X[-X


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## Howard Gaines III

David Frost said:


> Must be all those hours of observation training.
> 
> DFrost


 Retire on your time...focus on here! Besides...whose stupid thread was this anyway?! 
All I want to know is there any hope for the hotdog? =D>


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I see how it is gonna be, I am the one who gets censored. Nice job. Bye.


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## Al Curbow

Please don't lock this! It's one of the more humorous ones in awhile, LOL 

Let's put up a Jeff bashing section, we can all crack up at Susan and Molly on the attack and Jeff will love it, lol


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## David Frost

Al Curbow said:


> Please don't lock this! It's one of the more humorous ones in awhile, LOL
> 
> Let's put up a Jeff bashing section, we can all crack up at Susan and Molly on the attack and Jeff will love it, lol


I'm not locking it, not yet anyway. Like I said there may still be some adults that want to post. 

The second part of your post; No. 

DFrost


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## Carol Boche

susan tuck said:


> Oh please! Are we going down that road again? People need to act like adults and just stop the silly "my dog/sport/breed/whatever is better than yours" baiting in the first place.



Susan.....I am a bit confused.....you posted this on page 1 of this thread and you have since gone on to bash Jeff AGAIN....what's the deal? ](*,)

Not trying to start a pissing match, however, you seem to say things like this and then do the opposite.


----------



## Jim Nash

Thanks for posting that question Carol . It was something I was wondering too . Only because it was such a strong statement to make and was then followed by what we see now .


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Jim Nash said:


> Thanks for posting that question Carol . It was something I was wondering too . Only because it was such a strong statement to make and was then followed by what we see now .


You guys should have seen it before it got "cleansed" by the moderators. I don't ever want to get on Susan's shit list :lol:


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## Mike Lauer

Don Turnipseed said:


> I was thinking....isn't it about time for a "Can't we all get along II, LOL, LOL" thread? That Mike Laur sure knows how to get it started while he sits back and looks totally innocent.


hahaha
I subscribe to the old joke "arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics...even if you win you're still a ......"

i just honestly dont understand the my sport is better than your sport or that sport sucks
in reality I dont see a lot of similarities in the sports
Schutzhund the basic breed test, tracking, ob, some bites
French ring is totally different more active decoy some agility jumps
PSA hidden sleeve civil stuff

if i want civil and hidden sleeve i only have one option
Tradition, one option
agility? I mean how many rotts can do a FR wall? does that mean a rotty cant do sport or pp?

i guess the mondio FR people might be close enough to want to bash each other but the others are so different its like trying to discredit the golf team because you want more players to come play football
those guys were not going to play football anyway so let them have their thing


that was kind of my point 7 pages ago, but i think my type A personality option was found to be more true
who wants to see who can pee farther?


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## Carol Boche

Lee H Sternberg said:


> You guys should have seen it before it got "cleansed" by the moderators. I don't ever want to get on Susan's shit list :lol:


I saw it, pretty sad for someone that wants us all to act like adults....:roll:


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## Lee H Sternberg

Carol Boche said:


> I saw it, pretty sad for someone that wants us all to act like adults....:roll:


I'm not sure, Carol. Jeff has a knack for drawing people out of their shell don't ya think?


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## Don Turnipseed

Lee H Sternberg said:


> You guys should have seen it before it got "cleansed" by the moderators. I don't ever want to get on Susan's shit list :lol:


I saw it all Lee. Was actually pretty proud of her. Sue and myself kind of got off on the wrong foot about red neck bars and hotties, but, in spite of what she may have said at the time, I got a feeling we would have been leaving together when the dust settled.


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## Carol Boche

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm not sure, Carol. Jeff has a knack for drawing people out of their shell don't ya think?


Yes, and most of the time I find it humorous, but this is starting to get NASTY (and this time Jeff is pretty much the tame one),.....amazing that people will allow themselves to be led to the snake pit and then actually jump in.


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## Lee H Sternberg

I'm impressed with you MODS. Michelle's post lasted about 30 seconds. I was all set for round two.[-X


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## David Frost

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm impressed with you MODS. Michelle's post lasted about 30 seconds. I was all set for round two.[-X


chuckle, chuckle, slow day at work. One of the handler's I have in training is out sick, the other is doing NIMS training. I'm stuck in the office doing paperwork and running back and forth between this forum and the Cushman Club of America website. Our IT guy is probably tracking me as we speak, ha ha.

DFrost


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## Lee H Sternberg

David Frost said:


> chuckle, chuckle, slow day at work. One of the handler's I have in training is out sick, the other is doing NIMS training. I'm stuck in the office doing paperwork and running back and forth between this forum and the Cushman Club of America website. Our IT guy is probably tracking me as we speak, ha ha.
> 
> DFrost



I'm going to mosey over to the watering hole for a beer. Can you let me know if I miss anything?

Those 30 second Mod kill ones are often the most entertaining.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Don Turnipseed said:


> I saw it all Lee. Was actually pretty proud of her. Sue and myself kind of got off on the wrong foot about red neck bars and hotties, but, in spite of what she may have said at the time, I got a feeling we would have been leaving together when the dust settled.


Ah, road house bars, country or blues music and hotties bring back many fond memories and a few not so fond.:grin:


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## David Frost

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Ah, road house bars, country or blues music and hotties bring back many fond memories and a few not so fond.:grin:



Ahhh sounds like the Phillipines, well, from what I heard anyway. I spent all my time in the Chapel. 

DFrost


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## Lee H Sternberg

David Frost said:


> Ahhh sounds like the Phillipines, well, from what I heard anyway. I spent all my time in the Chapel.
> 
> DFrost


Now that I'm retired the things that changed is it's Reggae music and I set a limit of 3 beers. Can't pull off the big nights anymore. I tried that one night over the Holidays and licked my wounds for 2 days.:-({|=


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## Cate Helfgott

WOW! I read this thread way early on the drive in this morning and havent looked at it since....some peeps are aaaaaangry! :-({|=

Eh...what's the saying about two dog trainers? That the only things they're in agreement on is that the third is always wrong. Not that I have a problem with that...I love a good debate :twisted:

I think the main heart of the problem is that dog training for many people is like their religion....their opinions are also like their religion. Most folks have no real sense of humor about their religion. Attack their religion...or disagree with it....and it can get reeeeeeeeeeel nasty. 

Me? I gotta say...I enjoy most of Jeff's posts...though I dont always agree with him. They used to aggravate me...but a friend pointed out to me that he doesnt hide his opinion...and as someone without a brain-mouth filter I can definetley respect that.

~Cate


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## susan tuck

Jim Nash said:


> Thanks for posting that question Carol . It was something I was wondering too . Only because it was such a strong statement to make and was then followed by what we see now .


Because twice now he has come on here and actually blamed others for getting himself tossed off. No one got Jeff tossed, his big mouth got him tossed out. The mods read all the crap he was spewing and took action. Yet still, here he is trying to blame everyone else, and calling people names because he got sent to the corner. Unbelievable.


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## Carol Boche

susan tuck said:


> Because twice now he has come on here and actually blamed others for getting himself tossed off. No one got Jeff tossed, his big mouth got him tossed out. The mods read all the crap he was spewing and took action. Yet still, here he is trying to blame everyone else, and calling people names because he got sent to the corner. Unbelievable.


So this justifies your actions lately?


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## Don Turnipseed

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Now that I'm retired the things that changed is it's Reggae music and I set a limit of 3 beers. Can't pull off the big nights anymore. I tried that one night over the Holidays and licked my wounds for 2 days.:-({|=


Three tankards of hot beer is pretty hard to swallow Lee. Do they have cold beer where you go?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Oh yes, I have changed so much in the last few months years whatever. I still do the same stuff I have for the entire time I have been on the forum, so I got my account suspended for 5 days big whoop.

Tell me Susan, what happened in those 5 days ?? What was it that sent you over the edge besides the fact that you got the hots for Don, that sly ol silver tounged devil.

You just keep mentioning the suspension again and again and again and again. Weird. So weird. Didn't seem to make you happy.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Don Turnipseed said:


> Three tankards of hot beer is pretty hard to swallow Lee. Do they have cold beer where you go?


When I live here before in the jungle there was no roads or electricity. NO cold beer. I'm in a more civilized area now and cold beer is no problem. They still always ask if you want a glass and ice.


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## maggie fraser

I think folks are getting along just fine on here 

In Scotland... with the younger ones, the nastier they are to each other... the more it is they actually like each other, otherwise folks just don't respond!  In Scotland, it would appear that Susan REAAALLLY likes Jeff LOL That leaves Don out in the cold.... too nice probably! What a lot of fun!


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## Lee H Sternberg

maggie fraser said:


> I think folks are getting along just fine on here
> 
> In Scotland... with the younger ones, the nastier they are to each other... the more it is they actually like each other, otherwise folks just don't respond!  In Scotland, it would appear that Susan REAAALLLY likes Jeff LOL That leaves Don out in the cold.... too nice probably! What a lot of fun!


I think you are onto something, Maggie. I'm positive there is some strong mutual admiration there now that you mention it. How does that the old saying go? "You always hurt the one you love".#-o:grin:


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Oh yes, I have changed so much in the last few months years whatever. I still do the same stuff I have for the entire time I have been on the forum, so I got my account suspended for 5 days big whoop.


Funny - So much for having me on ignore, Jeff. I guess that was just another one of your little white lies but who's counting? Jeff I don't expect you to change, because apparently you are simply too thick to get that you were bounced because you are an asshole and not because people can't handle the fact that you have some sick need to brow beat and berate anyone who holds a different opinion about dog training from yourself.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So you are saying that you have an opinion on dog training ?? I didn't know that you trained dogs. Amazing. I told you to put me on ignore. I am just batting the half dead mouse around for my amusement.


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> I think folks are getting along just fine on here
> 
> In Scotland... with the younger ones, the nastier they are to each other... the more it is they actually like each other, otherwise folks just don't respond!  In Scotland, it would appear that Susan REAAALLLY likes Jeff LOL That leaves Don out in the cold.... too nice probably! What a lot of fun!


Oh, your the wise one Maggie. I have been wondering the same thing since Sue only seems to repond to Jeff......but I wasn't going to mention it. Maybe I'll just go play with my dogs some more before the big rain starts again.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Don Turnipseed said:


> Oh, your the wise one Maggie. I have been wondering the same thing since Sue only seems to repond to Jeff......but I wasn't going to mention it. Maybe I'll just go play with my dogs some more before the big rain starts again.


I hurt for you Don. You are OUT and JEFF is in.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Oh, your the wise one Maggie. I have been wondering the same thing since Sue only seems to repond to Jeff......but I wasn't going to mention it. Maybe I'll just go play with my dogs some more before the big rain starts again.


 
Don't you give up so easily you hear! Get stuck in.. you might get a nice/nasty surprise :grin:

Try being a wee bit more abusive, you know..like Jeff....


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## David Frost

OH lawd, lawd, lawd.


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## Lee H Sternberg

maggie fraser said:


> Don't you give up so easily you hear! Get stuck in.. you might get a nice/nasty surprise :grin:
> 
> Try being a wee bit more abusive, you know..like Jeff....


There you go Don. That is straight from the DEAR MAGGIE love column.


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## Cate Helfgott

maggie fraser said:


> Don't you give up so easily you hear! Get stuck in.. you might get a nice/nasty surprise :grin:
> 
> Try being a wee bit more abusive, you know..like Jeff....


Awsome...just plain awsome!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lee H Sternberg

David Frost said:


> OH lawd, lawd, lawd.


Don't worry David. Except for a few skirmishes we are all getting along now.\\/

It only took 103 posts.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is raining here, and it is supposed to snow. I guess I am out in the rain with DON !!!!!!


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## maggie fraser

Funny thing you should mention the rain....

Constant rain and drizzle and grey damp sure can have a bearing on how folks relate to each other.... especially when they kinda like each other. It rains quite a lot in Washington doesn't it ?

You folks who enjoy sunlight.... you just don't know what human relations are all about LOL


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## Jim Nash

Susan stated ; 

'' Because twice now he has come on here and actually blamed others for getting himself tossed off. No one got Jeff tossed, his big mouth got him tossed out. The mods read all the crap he was spewing and took action. Yet still, here he is trying to blame everyone else, and calling people names because he got sent to the corner. Unbelievable. "


Susan ,

I don't have a problem with you argueing with Jeff . I just have a problem with you saying one thing and doing another . Don't get on your high horse about how others should act then make an excuse for not practicing what you preach .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think she just wants to spank my naughty bottom while wearing leather and it pisses her off.

I said there were a bunch of crybabies, not blame.


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## Michelle Reusser

Can I at least express myself in this way to Jeff?...

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f374/breeziemom28/Me011.jpg


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## Gerry Grimwood

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Can I at least express myself in this way to Jeff?...
> 
> http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f374/breeziemom28/Me011.jpg


Great, now he's got two after him.

Jeff must be wearin Hai Karate :razz:


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## Lee H Sternberg

michelle kehoe said:


> can i at least express myself in this way to jeff?...
> 
> http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f374/breeziemom28/me011.jpg


round two!\\:d/


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## maggie fraser

I don't think folks need to go getting all specific and start picking on Susan..... that's between her and Jeff isn't it ? After all, it's their relationship and we should just be a bit more respectful. 

We can advise if they experience apparent insurmountable difficulty but I think they are a long way from that as yet, meanwhile we should just really encourage them.


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## Michelle Reusser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Great, now he's got two after him.
> 
> Jeff must be wearin Hai Karate :razz:


 
Funny you say that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxMSewqmyH8&feature=related


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## Jim Nash

Man , I'm jealous . Jeff has got two women all passive aggressive after him and Lou has got another offerring him a night at her place , plus dinner and dessert for ecollar lessons . 

I didn't know being an internet instigator and internet ecollar expert could get you chicks . 

What am I doing wrong ?!


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## maggie fraser

Jim Nash said:


> Man , I'm jealous . Jeff has got two women all passive aggressive after him and Lou has got another offerring him a night at her place , plus dinner and dessert for ecollar lessons .
> 
> I didn't know being an internet instigator and internet ecollar expert could get you chicks .
> 
> What am I doing wrong ?!


Stop being nice, be abusive... and type a lot LOL


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## Jim Nash

You trying to start something Maggie !!!!


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## maggie fraser

Jim Nash said:


> You trying to start something Maggie !!!!


Not me ! Why, are you ?? What are you trying to say like ??


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## Don Turnipseed

That Jeff is the man!!! He knows how to get the lady's into an emotional state for sure. I think the rest of us should pay attention to his technique for sure.


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## Jim Nash

Ah sh** performance anxiety ! 

Sorry Maggie , seriously this has never happened to me before .


I just don't have the magic fingers those guys have . They got mad typing skills .


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## Gerry Grimwood

I'm thinkin he's an international playboy but keepin it on the down low.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Man , I'm jealous . Jeff has got two women all passive aggressive after him and Lou has got another offerring him a night at her place , plus dinner and dessert for ecollar lessons .
> 
> I didn't know being an internet instigator and internet ecollar expert could get you chicks .
> 
> What am I doing wrong ?!


What are we doing wrong. I been putting pictures of puppies up since I been here and all I got was a few promises as of late and they were no shows. I may have to start carting those pups down to town and sitting on the lawns in front of the office buildings with them again. LOL


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## maggie fraser

Jim Nash said:


> Ah sh** performance anxiety !
> 
> Sorry Maggie , seriously this has never happened to me before .
> 
> 
> I just don't have the magic fingers those guys have . They got mad typing skills .


See ?? There you go, all that charm and manners! There's just no hope for some is there ?


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## Cate Helfgott

Shit Jim...you just missed me asking Jeff to be my Yoda too. I guess that makes me a two timer. Aw well...I'm not sure I'd make it with Jeff...too much competition....not enough frustrated rage.

-Cate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jim Nash

Well Cate , if you ever get tired of badboys and don't mind a nice older guy like myself , with keyboard impotence . I'm here for you . 

Don you got yourself a goldmine there !


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Well Cate , if you ever get tired of badboys and don't mind a nice older guy like myself , with keyboard impotence . I'm here for you .
> 
> Don you got yourself a goldmine there !


Only for as long as a litter last Jim....and you can go through the pups pretty darn fast. LOL I think I would be better off just selling them because the barter system isn't that profitable.


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## Cate Helfgott

Jim Nash said:


> Well Cate , if you ever get tired of badboys and don't mind a nice older guy like myself , with keyboard impotence . I'm here for you .
> 
> Don you got yourself a goldmine there !


Aww Jim, you're a doll! I'll always know I can turn to you. Actually, I think I like you better ;p

See, we can get along :-D

-Cate 
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jennifer Marshall

Wow this thread is ..... different ... LOL

So Don, instead of being a puppy pimp, your puppies are pimping you .. ? Could be a success, I imagine they aren't abusive or require a percentage. What do they get for all their hard work, being cute pudgy little women getters?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I found something that maybe Michelle and Susan should take up instead of dogs. This should help them strengthen mentally and emotionally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLz7BSNFa7k&feature=fvhl


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## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLz7BSNFa7k&feature=fvhl



Tedious AND Time Consuming.....PERFECT!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Wow this thread is ..... different ... LOL
> 
> So Don, instead of being a puppy pimp, your puppies are pimping you .. ? Could be a success, I imagine they aren't abusive or require a percentage. What do they get for all their hard work, being cute pudgy little women getters?


OMG Jennifer, you have thrown me completely off my game here. I just never expected one of the puppy recipients to join in this conversation. What did Jager get??? A great home and the opportunity to work. Your right, this thread is really getting different. LOL I feel like a kid that just got caught doing something I shouldn't be.....Damn, I am laughing so hard I can't type....be back when I regain my composure.


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## Jennifer Marshall

It's that hand in the cookie jar feeling!!!!

I was thinking you might give them some chicken or a hot dog lol


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is raining here, and it is supposed to snow. I guess I am out in the rain with DON !!!!!!


My son just got back from San Antono. That's where he was born and reared for a good part of his early life. He goes hog hunting on a friends property every year. He said he just couldn't get away from the cold this year. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It wasn't the cookie jar Don was thinking of. : )


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## Jennifer Marshall

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It wasn't the cookie jar Don was thinking of. : )


  :lol:


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## susan tuck

Jim if you ever see me knocking a fellow members dog who just died on a tribute thread they started for that dog (would have liked to see someone tell Howard his Roscoe was a shitter), or ripping apart someone on the forum because they committed the atrocious offence of not taking my advise, or the next time you see me dog pile on someone and hit them with as many derogatory names as I can because they disagree with my training methods please feel free to jump in and let me know I'm a hypocrite. Same thing if you ever see me following along at the heels of a bully applauding, encouraging and making excuses for his brand of boorish behaviour, please be sure and let me know, because the last thing in the world I want to be is just like Jeff. Until then, my conscious is clear.


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## Carol Boche

susan tuck said:


> Jim if you ever see me knocking a fellow members dog who just died on a tribute thread they started for that dog (would have liked to see someone tell Howard his Roscoe was a shitter), or ripping apart someone on the forum because they committed the atrocious offence of not taking my advise, or the next time you see me dog pile on someone and hit them with as many derogatory names as I can because they disagree with my training methods please feel free to jump in and let me know I'm a hypocrite. Same thing if you ever see me following along at the heels of a bully applauding, encouraging and making excuses for his brand of boorish behaviour, please be sure and let me know, because the last thing in the world I want to be is just like Jeff. Until then, my conscious is clear.


Ahhhh....I see now....you are still dredging up the past, and wallowing in it. 

The comment was made yes, and a lot of us "bully supporters" agreed that the comment on the dog that passed was over the top not right. Heck, I told Jeff that on the phone....see....we can disagree without being shitty about it. 

You are being a hypocrite by telling everyone else to grow up and act like adults and then acting the way you are. 

Oh, wait, I forgot that you made some excuse a few posts back, AFTER telling all of us to grow up, that blamed Jeff for the reason you are acting the way you are.......so you are the person that follows the "It's okay for me but not for others" rule........

Get a grip, count to ten, take a walk, work out, train dogs, take some meds, grow up or something and get over it. PERIOD!!!!

You have drug out the Jeff is a Dick shit for too long.....time to move on, stop stalking the guy everytime he posts and give out some excellent working dog advice please.


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## susan tuck

You want to know what I think? I think you kiss his ass. I'm tired of seeing you follow him around making excuses for his sorry ass, and yammering on about how you think people should take his bullshit because you think he has so much to offer. Whether you like it or not, every time you or Jeff starts up with bullshit about how people are babies because they complained about him as if he holds no personal responsibility and did nothing wrong I will tell the other side - EVERY damn time. He has never appologized for crossing the line (multiple times, in multiple ways), he actually brags about it. What a man - NOT.

Feel better now Carol? I know I do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How many posts has Susan made on a topic other than me ?? Anyone care to look and see ?


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## Carol Boche

susan tuck said:


> You want to know what I think? I think you kiss his ass. I'm tired of seeing you follow him around making excuses for his sorry ass, and yammering on about how you think people should take his bullshit because you think he has so much to offer. Whether you like it or not, every time you or Jeff starts up with bullshit about how people are babies because they complained about him as if he holds no personal responsibility and did nothing wrong I will tell the other side - EVERY damn time. He has never appologized for crossing the line (multiple times, in multiple ways), he actually brags about it. What a man - NOT.
> 
> Feel better now Carol? I know I do.


WOW.....So Jeff....how does my nose feel up your ass?????

And Susan......I have always told people to hit the F******G IGNORE button. 

Xanax or Prozac will help. 

I'm done with you. You have been nice to me and then just a pure BITCH even when no one knew I was friends with Jeff......so go on being your big bad self. No One CARES.

Oh and Jeff.....all anyone has to do is hit view users posts and they can see for themselves she contributes.


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Susan, did you say something ?? I think you were dismissed. Ignore function is always available.


gee maybe both you and Carol can put me on "ignore" and then you can have your live in sign on and give people grief. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

One glass of wine and Susan is a terror. Go ahead and hit that ignore button like I told you to.


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## Jim Nash

susan tuck said:


> Jim if you ever see me knocking a fellow members dog who just died on a tribute thread they started for that dog (would have liked to see someone tell Howard his Roscoe was a shitter), or ripping apart someone on the forum because they committed the atrocious offence of not taking my advise, or the next time you see me dog pile on someone and hit them with as many derogatory names as I can because they disagree with my training methods please feel free to jump in and let me know I'm a hypocrite. Same thing if you ever see me following along at the heels of a bully applauding, encouraging and making excuses for his brand of boorish behaviour, please be sure and let me know, because the last thing in the world I want to be is just like Jeff. Until then, my conscious is clear.



Ok Susan you asked I'll oblige . 

You started out PREACHING this ;

" Oh please! Are we going down that road again? People need to act like adults and just stop the silly "my dog/sport/breed/whatever is better than yours" baiting in the first place. "



and followed it with stuff like this 



" You want to know what I think? I think you kiss his ass. I'm tired of seeing you follow him around making excuses for his sorry ass, and yammering on about how you think people should take his bullshit because you think he has so much to offer. Whether you like it or not, every time you or Jeff starts up with bullshit about how people are babies because they complained about him as if he holds no personal responsibility and did nothing wrong I will tell the other side - EVERY damn time. He has never appologized for crossing the line (multiple times, in multiple ways), he actually brags about it. What a man - NOT.

Feel better now Carol? I know I do. "




You're a hypocrite .

Like I said before I don't mind you argueing with Jeff . I don't agree with everything he says . 

But don't preach one thing and then make excuses for doing the opposite .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I would personally like to thank the moderators for letting us be the WDF again. 

Thank you
Thank you
Thank you
Thank you


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Great, now he's got two after him.
> 
> Jeff must be wearin Hai Karate :razz:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAnU9zT87j4


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nice !!!!!


----------

