# Boxing is dead?



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mayweather vs Alvarez.


12 thousand fans......



......At the weigh in.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Mayweather vs Alvarez.
> 
> 
> 12 thousand fans......
> ...


Just wait!

Alvarez will win and there will be a rematch (of course) with 25,000 fans at the rematch weigh in.#-o

Pay per view, which is insane at $65 bucks, will jump to $100 for the rematch.](*,)

I used to think $10 bucks to watch Ali at the local movie house was a rip off.:roll: 

I will watch the rerun next week for free.:lol:


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

While I do not think boxing is dead...

You have very questionable, perhaps conspiracy-inducing, judging. See things like the loss two Pacquiao fights ago that everybody NOT judging the fight had him winning.

There is little to compell successful, big-name fighters who to fight. Specifically, look at the likely-never-to-happen Mayweather and Pacquiao fight. If it does happen, we might see it in years when they are past their prime. At this point, Mayweather seems content to pick fighters he should win pretty convincingly. I am skeptical Mayweather vs. Pacquiao will ever happen. Which is a problem because...

How many compelling fighters are there in boxing right now? When was the last time the Klitschko brothers got the general public's blood pumping? Who has you really amped to see fight Mayweather not named Manny? Who are today's Hitman Hearns, Sugar Ray, Foreman, Ali, Tyson, Holyfield, Hagler, or your Ward & Gatti type rivalries? Which is compounded by...

MMA. The elephant in the room. In addition to being a more stylistically open sport, for not at least it has kept a lot of the problems currently strangling boxing from entering into it.  Yeah, you have Jon Jones and Anderson Silva refusing to fight for the moment, and Dana White brings a lot of baggage in the love-him/hate-him variety. Still, it has kept boxing from being quite the king of combat sports it has been. They are different animals, and I think there is room for both. However, if boxing keeps shooting itself in the foot that may end up making it a clear distant second in that niche. Not that I expect it to fade away entirely, yet I DO think that is all helping boxing decline while making MMA seem a sexier option.

Couple that with the cost of pay-per-view and you severely limit your audience.

So boxing is not dead. Boxing as the clear-cut major combat sport? No, at least not in America. Those days may be a thing of the past. MMA seems to have taken a stranglehold on that title. I think Jujutsu (BJJ & Judo) is on the rise because of that. Martial Arts like boxing, Muay Thai, kick boxing, Karate, *****, and the like are almost seen in a lot of ways as accessories to or foundations for MMA. Especially BJJ or grappling at large.

-Cheers


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> While I do not think boxing is dead...
> 
> You have very questionable, perhaps conspiracy-inducing, judging. See things like the loss two Pacquiao fights ago that everybody NOT judging the fight had him winning.
> 
> ...


By no means is boxing the only show in town. but MMA talks about shitty judging in boxing, as if MMA is immune, it happens quite often. Second, MMA Also has had raised the publics eyebrows now in a few fights where it looks as though guys are taking falls on purpose. And that's bullshit, about Jones not wanting Silva or vice versa, that's WWE shit. Because Dana white has all those guys under contract....they are not free agents like boxing has. So he tells them what to do. 

You don't watching boxing much do you?

Nonito doniare, Glovokin, Adrian Broner, Chad Dawson, Manny, Mayweather, Rigendeaux, lucas Mattyse, Danny Garcia, Tim bradley.... Just to name a few, are all guys of Silva, Jon Jones Talent level respectively.


And I would love to see Mayweather fight Golovkin. Who is ten times better than alvarez.

Rivals? did we just not watch Manny vs Juan 4? Diaz vs Alvarez? those were wars. 

I think MMA has had it's flash in the pan... I think the shine is worn off, the hype is being figured out and people are starting to retreat. First most fans are not purists of any sport. They want simple entertainment. So listening to Joe rogan bitch fight after fight about when fans boo because they are tired of the Gay porn re-enactment of two guys hugging on the mat is telling me something. First, I don't care if there is a tactical match happening on the ground, your boring the fans, stand them up. But UFC has not done anything to speed up the pace of the fight. I am sure your right stylistically it's more dynamic, so dynamic no one (with the exception of a few people) has mastered anything. Anderson Silva is one the best strikers in MMA... Which is funny, cause no one in MMA has striking defense. so how good of striker do you have to be. in the world of striking skill....he's terrible. And I know you will defend him, but he's not clean, he's moderalty accurate, he's not a huge puncher and he's slick against guys who couldn't dodge a bean bag chair being thrown at them.

His defense sucks he just moves his heads and hopes he does not run into a punch it's not like he's making them miss on purpose. 

I think MMA has pointed a lot of fingers at boxing saying, look at how shitty they are....when they suffer from the same viruses...Like a young sport. They are rebelious and don't think they are vulenrable. Boxing is laughing and saying....you just wait.

If I had my way. I think the most beautiful combat sport there is Mauy Thai. BTW which has problems of fighters throwing fights, shitty judges and the whole shabang.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Boxing has made a few combacks since I was a kid. My dad and I Watched the old Gillette Cavalcade of Sports on Fri nights in the 50s. It got to be a joke with some of the wide missed knockouts and other thrown fights. The mob was running things at the time.
Ali brought it back and the early MMA type fights took the wind out of it's sails again. The excellent match ups today are again breathing life back into it. Will it regain it's glory with all the UFC fights going on? Hard to tell but it was one of, if not THE first Olympic sport so it has a way of coming and going.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I often wonder if the head injuries in boxing would be less if they did away with the boxing gloves and just did bareknuckle. Like in UFC they put rounds in it, made fighters stand up if it got boring, made them wear gloves, built weight classes.In short they watered it down. Then they picked the president of the UFC a Tae Bo instructor. I don't really care about that I just think its kind of odd. 

I thnk the only original rules in UFC 1 were... no biting, no eye gouging...chainsaws can be used but are frowned upon. I miss those days. 

I think boxing was more like UFC back in the 1800's.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for me it's beyond boxing ... it's pure competitive sports vs entertainment and marketing 
as you mix em together, guess what takes over ](*,)

name any sport where this doesn't apply

we have so many wrestling related events here i can't keep them straight anymore ](*,)

the promoters know people would rather be entertained, so modern technological advances in mass media and marketing brings on more entertainment ... kind of depressing to me since i think sports are exciting to watch without any added hype, but no money trail so it's a dead end

when i listen to the fan conversations it seems like they are discussing and debating the hype and "personalities" more than the competition and the sport itself. personally i don't need a light show and music videos to warm me up to watch a sporting event

hope the olympics doesn't go that route too, but these multi billion dollar bids are getting scary [-X


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

James Downey said:


> By no means is boxing the only show in town. but MMA talks about shitty judging in boxing, as if MMA is immune, it happens quite often. Second, MMA Also has had raised the publics eyebrows now in a few fights where it looks as though guys are taking falls on purpose. And that's bullshit, about Jones not wanting Silva or vice versa, that's WWE shit. Because Dana white has all those guys under contract....they are not free agents like boxing has. So he tells them what to do.


It is not that MMA is immune, it is just it has not had quite the high-profile judging disasters or the Don King types.

As for the Jones vs. Silva type fight refusals, I disagree. They are not free agents however they are not forced to fight. If they could be, why would White gain by stalling WWE-style when he could cash in on a super fight now? I cannot see any need to build up the hype anymore than it already is. However, for the non-superstars I agree; while fighters can (and have) refused fights, there is a lot of pressure to accept certain fights since they could be fired by Dana White. So there is some gray area.



> You don't watching boxing much do you?
> 
> Nonito doniare, Glovokin, Adrian Broner, Chad Dawson, Manny, Mayweather, Rigendeaux, lucas Mattyse, Danny Garcia, Tim bradley.... Just to name a few, are all guys of Silva, Jon Jones Talent level respectively.


Guilty. As of late I have not watched much. I need to get back into the more modern fights; I am guilty of living in the past.

That said, it is not that I do not think there are not great boxers, nor that I think MMA is perfect or immune to its own issues. For me, some of the things like the judging of the Pacquiao vs. Bradley debacle ruin it for me. The sport itself? I love it. Professional boxing as an organized sport? I have issues with the organization to some extent. Aside from my issues, I think a problem with boxing, which has no easy answer, is that the heavyweight division has not really been sexy since Lennox Lewis, if then. Maybe this is an unfair observation, I just do not see many household names in boxing. The public perception of boxing is in a bit of a lull.

However, as Bob mentioned, boxing's popularity has ebbed and flowed.



> And I would love to see Mayweather fight Golovkin. Who is ten times better than alvarez.
> 
> Rivals? did we just not watch Manny vs Juan 4? Diaz vs Alvarez? those were wars.


You've got me on Manny & Juan. The problem there, just from a marketing perspective, is Manny had won two in a row against Juan after a draw their first time. Juan's KO of Manny definitely helps market it as a war. If Juan had lost for whatever reason, it would have cemented that as more of a lop-sided affair than a legitimate rivalry. As opposed to the talked-about-way-too-much-yet-for-a-good-reason Mayweather/Pacquiao fight that seems like it is never going to happen. Prior to two consecutive losses you had two fighters on long winning streaks (Mayweather undefeated obviously) that everybody and their mother wanted to see. Even Juan was somebody that had obviously fought Manny hard, yet was also somebody that had at that point earned a draw at best and a two-fight losing streak at worst. That lacked some excitement coming into the match.

Mayweather is just poetry in motion. However, there is also the perception (which I am not sure that I buy) that he or management has been pretty selective in his fights to try and preserve his perfect record rather than just fighting the best fighter.

All of this is not to focus solely on Mayweather, Pacquiao, or the perception of the heavyweight division as lackluster. It IS pointing out boxing currently has a bit of a marketing problem to the general public.

If you wanted to point out I should maybe spend more time really watching the other weight classes and move past the 90's in boxing, you would have a point.



> I think MMA has had it's flash in the pan... I think the shine is worn off, the hype is being figured out and people are starting to retreat. First most fans are not purists of any sport. They want simple entertainment. So listening to Joe rogan bitch fight after fight about when fans boo because they are tired of the Gay porn re-enactment of two guys hugging on the mat is telling me something. First, I don't care if there is a tactical match happening on the ground, your boring the fans, stand them up. But UFC has not done anything to speed up the pace of the fight. I am sure your right stylistically it's more dynamic, so dynamic no one (with the exception of a few people) has mastered anything.


I think Rogan has a point there. MMA is at heart largely a grappling sport. It is different from pure boxing. As heavily integrated as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling are MMA (and for good reason), I think you really sort of have to keep the ground game. That is kind of central to what makes this different from boxing, kick boxing, or even Judo. If they are just stalling and they want to make a rule stand them up for doing nothing for too long, that is one thing. If they want to just stand them up more to make it more entertaining, that I have a problem with. However, I am a bit of a purist when it comes to this stuff.



> Anderson Silva is one the best strikers in MMA... Which is funny, cause no one in MMA has striking defense. so how good of striker do you have to be. in the world of striking skill....he's terrible. And I know you will defend him


No I won't. 



> but he's not clean, he's moderalty accurate, he's not a huge puncher and he's slick against guys who couldn't dodge a bean bag chair being thrown at them.
> 
> His defense sucks he just moves his heads and hopes he does not run into a punch it's not like he's making them miss on purpose.


Two things.

First of all, not to channel Al Davis, but Silva just wins baby! Until he got knocked out. Which brings me to...

Second, I think there are worlds of room for improvement in striking in MMA. I do think it is possible for somebody to have good fundamentals of boxing, wrestling a/o some form of Judo/Jujutsu or grappling, and make a pretty well-rounded fighter. Just because you have not seen a ton of it yet does not mean it is not possible.



> I think MMA has pointed a lot of fingers at boxing saying, look at how shitty they are....when they suffer from the same viruses...Like a young sport. They are rebelious and don't think they are vulenrable. Boxing is laughing and saying....you just wait.
> 
> If I had my way. I think the most beautiful combat sport there is Mauy Thai. BTW which has problems of fighters throwing fights, shitty judges and the whole shabang.


I like Muay Thai. However, I also like grappling and submissions, and think the footwork in boxing is arguably better or more emphasized (or so I have gathered). That said, I am admittedly only a casual observer of Muay Thai.

Really though, any of the combat sports can be great. It is about the fighter in my opinion. The organizations that run sports? Honestly, they can kind of ruin it for me. And fighters throwing fights, crummy judge, corruption, etc. If MMA makes the mistakes and succumbs to the "same viruses" as boxing, maybe you are right and it wanes or dies. However, if not, I think it could be a nice backdrop for a more stylistically open sort of combat sport venue. By no means do I believe it is a flash in the pan whose time is done now. We will see how sustainable it is or how it ebbs & flows over time.

-Cheers


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I am sure your right stylistically it's more dynamic, so dynamic no one (with the exception of a few people) has mastered anything. Anderson Silva is one the best strikers in MMA... Which is funny, cause no one in MMA has striking defense.
> 
> I think the most beautiful combat sport there is Mauy Thai. BTW which has problems of fighters throwing fights, shitty judges and the whole shabang.


 
Whats your perception of mastering a style of fighting, because most MMA (not just a few) fighters are considered experts in at least one area. Ill use Anderson Silva as an example. He's a Black prajied in Muay Thai, Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Black belt in Judo, 5th dan black belt in Taekwondo, Yellow rope in Capoeira. I'd say he's pretty well rounded, and an expert in striking and grappling.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

James Downey said:


> So listening to Joe rogan bitch fight after fight about when fans boo because they are tired of the Gay porn re-enactment of two guys hugging on the mat is telling me something. First, I don't care if there is a tactical match happening on the ground, your boring the fans, stand them up. But UFC has not done anything to speed up the pace of the fight.


Joe Rogan (is a douche imo) knows what he is looking at (he holds two black belts, and is a bad ass from what Ive heard by those who have trained with him), as do most MMA fans, I would say. The refs do stand them up when its obvious there is no work being done on the ground. 

Funny, I remember hearing the "gay porn" comments about wresting from all the "tough guys" in high school. Goooood times.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Here is what "technical" boxing gets you in a real fight. Ask James Toney how it feels to be wrestle ****ed.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_nfQHaC3iWg

I'm a Joe Rogan fan. He talked about schutzhund on his latest podcast. While his knowledge on dogs isn't top notch, it is impressive he knows some if the terminology. Go to about 2 hours 17 minutes.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kiFM2QDPbw4


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I used to be a huge boxing fan in the 70s and 80s. Even did a little myself. When MMA came around I foo foo-ed it for a couple years but then became strangely drawn to it. Fast forward 20 plus years to the Mayweather fight this week. I was bored to tears. I watched Mayweather barely win that fight and IMO he played it safe the whole 12 rounds. 

My days of watching the Friday Night Fights on ESPN, and the fights from Maryland on USA channel are over. I'd rather watch Bellator fights. I can appreciate the amount of training time, Skill, and the dulled pain receptors displayed in MMA. Hell, I even like Bruce Buffer LOL. I bet his brother Michael is pissed now that Bruce has the more popular opening hook.....Iiiiiitts Tiiiime!!!\\/


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

John Wolf said:


> Here is what "technical" boxing gets you in a real fight. Ask James Toney how it feels to be wrestle ****ed.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_nfQHaC3iWghttp://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kiFM2QDPbw4


Well, to be fair that is less "technical boxing" and more being stupid about placing yourself in a virtual no-win situation. Had somebody like Toney mastered some takedown defense and the basics of grappling to have a prayer against being taken down or being able to get out of an uke type situation on the ground, maybe we could see the efficacy of boxing. There have been a few people like say Chuck Liddell who have succeeded as largely strikers. Of course, I just looked and he also had a background in wrestling and BJJ. What I have seen, he was more of a standup striker than a wrestler/grappler in his fights.

All that aside, if you go into an MMA match, your first one, show no signs of having any clue how to defend against any of the moves a wrestler or Jujutsu practitioner is likely to throw at you, and oh yeah, your first fight is against Randy freaking Couture?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is just plain stupidity. Or arrogance. Probably both. And every time that Boxer vs. MMA thing has come about, you see the same thing. Boxer gets thrown or grappled, then get submitted or ground-and-pounded. Every. Freaking. Time.

I think there is a place for technical boxing skills in MMA, especially with the right fighter. However, you still have to pay at least some heed to everything else the rules allowed.

-Cheers


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Little Evil boxed proffesionally as well as MMA. He hung his shingle in the MMA ring after after a brief return to the sweet science in the squared circle.

Oh, and James Toney got what he deserved. It certainly was "Lights Out"...for him.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

When boxing was.... MARVELOUS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZHIo5ylQA8

One of the best fights of all time imo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mILPqwesNE


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

that Hearns/Hagler fight was nice to watch again ..Tx for posting

cool to see those classic fights

i still say Ali was in a class by himself in his prime, but he even proved he could go toe to toe, slug it out and take a punch in his latter years


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hagler, IMHO, was the best of that era in his weigh tclass but to many fighters ducked him in his prime. Same thing with "The Acorn", Earnie Shavers. Ali and all of them ducked him till he was past his prime and he still gave a good accounting of himself. 
Ali dominated the limelight not only because of excellent skills but he brought controversy and that helped bring back boxing.
The sad thing was he over shadowed a lot of lower weight fighters of the same era. One of my favs of that era was the light heavy weight champ Bob Foster. Nothing spectacular to watch but he'd lull you to sleep with his jab then take you out. I think his first, maybe only loss was when he went up in weight and challenged Ali. VERY few are successful doing that. Durant being the most noted exception. 
Look up Danny, Little Red Lopez, a Featherweight champ. He got knocked down more then any fighter I've seen but he always managed to get up and win. 
Matthew Saad Muhammmed, Light heavyweight, was as exciting a fighter as you could see. His battle with Yakie Lopez was a war from start to finish as were many of his fights.
Armondo Munitz, light weight if I recall, had the most wicked left hook in boxing.
Many, many excellent fighters of the Ali era that simply were overshadowed because the heavyweights got all the attention.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I loved to watch Freddie Roach fight. Him the same birthday as me(mm/dd/yy) is a bonus


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> I loved to watch Freddie Roach fight. Him the same birthday as me(mm/dd/yy) is a bonus


Freddie now works with a number of MMA fighters to improve their boxing skills.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Freddie now works with a number of MMA fighters to improve their boxing skills.



Yep. Too bad he's showing the effect of all those head shots from years ago.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Yep. Too bad he's showing the effect of all those head shots from years ago.



It's a rare fighter that doesn't show at least a bit of it.
I don't think you'd want to tap one of those guys on the shoulder at a gathering. :lol:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Freddie now works with a number of MMA fighters to improve their boxing skills.



No, No, no. Freddie now works with a Number of MMA fighters to improve his bank account.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

James Downey said:


> No, No, no. Freddie now works with a Number of MMA fighters to improve his bank account.


 A man still has to eat. Aren't some of his guys doing good?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> No, No, no. Freddie now works with a Number of MMA fighters to improve his bank account.



Would if I could! :twisted: :-D:wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> No, No, no. Freddie now works with a Number of MMA fighters to improve his bank account.


so are you saying that Freddie does not also have any personal interest in the fighters he is working with, and is not working to improve their boxing skills at all?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I wish there were more boxers like Freddie. Men with class.


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