# Automatic Out?



## Brandon Harper (Dec 25, 2015)

Hi everyone, I'm new to protections sports but have a pretty solid foundation in behavior modification and retriever training. I'll be getting a mal puppy in about a week. I plan on doing some sort of protection sport, not 100% sure which one. One thing I've noticed while attending the local club's (IPO) training day is that typically the dogs automatically "out" the sleeve when the helper stops. The handlers still scream "OUT!" but its clear that the command isn't necessary.

What is the consensus of an automatic out, necessary? desirable? 

It seems like it could be beneficial in IPO, but not in the suit games since the decoy sometimes moves very slowly while the dog is biting. I could see a grey area which the dog would have to make a decision of when to out and when to continue engaging. 

It also seems like a behavior that would be pretty tough to go backwards on. I.e. Once a dog automatically outs, it'd be tough to teach the dog to bite passively. 

If it is undesirable, what steps can one take to prevent it? My initial guess would be to create some play LONG before teaching the out in which the dog gets used to biting / tugging without applying energy to the toy.

Please forgive me if I missed something, just a newbie trying to put the bazillion pieces of the puzzle together.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yeah auto out is bad, even when I was doing IPO I don't teach auto out, so stupid in my opinion, IPO has become so much a points sport and so sometimes it is good for them to out automaticly when the decoy freeze up to avoid point loss for slow or dirty out, but for protection work or other protection sport like PSA, it is a major points deduct.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

BTW, to avoid auto out, if you are playing tug, when you freeze up, don't out your dog, this will get him into a routine/pattern trained, freeze up for a second, then play again, mix it up, sometime you out sometime you don't, the key is not teaching him the pattern.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Khoi Pham said:


> BTW, to avoid auto out, if you are playing tug, when you freeze up, don't out your dog, this will get him into a routine/pattern trained, freeze up for a second, then play again, mix it up, sometime you out sometime you don't, the key is not teaching him the pattern.


Same method we use... it works well for us too


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Hey Brandon ... you will find opinions all over the place about how to out...depends on the work for dog... I dont want a LE dog spitting out a bad guy because he thought he heard a whistle or out command. But I want a sport dog to pop off that bite on cue. You will have to see what his temperament is and kinda get the feel for where you want to be at in his realm and kinda hunt and peck from there. Khois advice I agree with and do it te same way usually.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I Like to start a puppy on a tug by locking up BUT, ASAP when the pup starts got "get it" then movement slowly comes in and builds. 

Agree 100% that to much can create issues with outs thus the ASAP.

As mentioned above there are may way to each the out.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Brandon
how did you happen to find this forum ?


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