# Dominant Behavior in Dogs



## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

What, in the opinion of the users of this forum, defines a dominant dog/behavior for you?
Is the dog just always dominant every waking moment? Or are there phases of it?
Is it a matter of not letting other dogs play, or going as far as being a 'control freak' and acting aggressive to get their way?
What about dogs that will show full submission to their human owner(roll over on back when you greet them, try to lick under your jaw, backing off naturally, listening to commands, giving up toys and food without hesitation or growling, etc) but also show dominant behavior as well? In fact, how do you all compare and contrast submission with dominance?

So, why am I bringing up a topic that has probably been under the microscope a lot? Because I keep seeing it spread out into nothing. That, and you wouldn't believe that the 'modern' opinion in some dog training circles is that true dominance does not exist.
So, in all fun...:idea: I just want to discuss what true dominant behavior is, and how to manage/deal with it. 
Sorry if this has been flogged to death and beyond


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> What about dogs that will show full submission to their human owner(roll over on back when you greet them, try to lick under your jaw, backing off naturally, listening to commands, giving up toys and food without hesitation or growling, etc) but also show dominant behavior as well? So, in all fun


So have you seen the scenario above or is it just a hypothetical. "Fun." Interesting, someone used that to describe that ongoing 50+ page thread.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Oh, I should add, most people here WANT a fair amount of dominance in the dog for the work they do. Its not really given that much thought. As far as the dominance hierchy debate--that's the tree hugging pet community mostly. I select against outright submissivness so can't comment on those. I also don't "manage" the dominants. At some point, we might have a come to jesus and they realize I buy the dog food and we don't have to revisit it. There are some people who have the super dominants, so maybe they can comment on life with the ones where the handler challenge or even aggression tends to be ongoing.

Terrasita


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I think there are a lot of 'pet' people who see everything that a pushy, exuberant, drivey dog does as an act of dominance. They've watched all the dog training shows and are convinced their dog is angling for household, if not world, dominance. Call Cesar, or Victoria or Brad... the dog is out of control.

Got a dog that wants to go out the door first? DOMINANCE. Must crush it or he'll be stealing the car keys and joyriding around the neighbourhood by the time he's a teenager. Next he'll be stealing your bank card and plundering your accounts...

I have pushy, happy, goofy dogs who want to play and do stuff... I let them get away with all manner of 'dominant behaviours' like sleeping on the furniture or coming to me to be petted or going down the stairs first, but really, I don't think I have super dominant dogs and live pretty happily with them. 

I would be interested to hear what living with a truly dominant dog is like.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

are we talking people dominant, dog dominant, or both?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Truly dominate dogs are the coolest dogs in the world. They seldom show aggression except when there is a dog equal to them.....which today, is rare. Sadly, most people think a dominate dog shows more aggression. The reality is the dogs showing more aggression are weaker dogs. Truly dominate dogs, in dales anyway, can play subserviente to the master simply because they can without it being a threat to their true dominance. Very similar to wife husband relationships. One lets the other think they are in charge when they really are not.....but, when the chips are down, the dominance is clear. Makes training interesting.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The "average" dominant dog is usually nothing more then a PIA that gets away with being obnoxious.
It's one of those worn out terms most people don't have a clue about.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Truly dominate dogs are the coolest dogs in the world. They seldom show aggression except when there is a dog equal to them.....which today, is rare. Sadly, most people think a dominate dog shows more aggression. The reality is the dogs showing more aggression are weaker dogs. Truly dominate dogs, in dales anyway, can play subserviente to the master simply because they can without it being a threat to their true dominance. Very similar to wife husband relationships. One lets the other think they are in charge when they really are not.....but, when the chips are down, the dominance is clear. Makes training interesting.


Very true. 

And instead of carrying a sleeve round, just stands over it and marks the damn thing! LOL is my dog dominant then?


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

The scientist that started the entire "alpha-dominant" dog thing in the seventies David Mech, has now retracted all of those theories because they were based on artificial study situations. So it is truly a worn out, overused term tha few really know why they use it.

If you replace dominant with the word Confident, then apply Dons description, I think you would have a much more accurate description of dogs and their personalities.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> The scientist that started the entire "alpha-dominant" dog thing in the seventies David Mech, has now retracted all of those theories because they were based on artificial study situations. So it is truly a worn out, overused term tha few really know why they use it.
> 
> If you replace dominant with the word Confident, then apply Dons description, I think you would have a much more accurate description of dogs and their personalities.


Butch, while I have never cared for the alpha/dominate terms and prefer calling them the "ultimate dogs", I can see where "dominate" came into vogue. If you have a dog like this, you cannot sit an equal next to it. They simly will not tolerate it and one has to "dominate the other. Dogs of this caliber seldom profile. They just take care of business with no fan fare. Thus the word dominate came about. Lesser dogs profile because of the lack of confidence. The problem with the word alpha/dominate then becomes a question of situation. A weak dog can be dominate if he is surrounded by weaker dogs. This leads to "I have a dominate dog" dog syndrome. Compared to what??


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I had a dominant dog without really realising it until later.

It was my Briard. He wasn't crazy about other people but wasn't in any way afraid of them - he was neutral to most dogs - never looked for a fight - one dog tried to steal his dumbbell in a joint exercise. He just stood his height and the other slinked away.

He accepted our Fila Brasileiro pup as if it were his own to raise. 13,5 years we had them together, in the car box without dividing wall, etc. Out in the fields - the only time he intervened and "needled" the Fila was when this raced around too far away in his mind and he nabbed him. Just occasional "try and come up the stairs" when he was standing there "wagging" his tail.

Another chap let his dog out of the car box at training and then called "sh1t, that's the dog fighter. Eric, the Briard stood his ground and I downed him, no fight.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I am on the fence, what about dogs that leg wrap or body wrap people and hump them? I see the confident thing too...but I do see alot of dogs grabbing people, other dogs, and objects and humping them...so what is that? LOL...

I got a dog in once to use as a stud that was really pushy, a 130 lb presa...I did some bitework with him earlier in the day, letting the dog think he really beat me up....brought it the living room at night, and it started nosing and pushing us around to be petted. He was super cool until I gave him a firm NO and pushed him away,then his look kinda changed...as soon as I stood up the dog jumped to his hind legs, wrapped me up in a bear hug and growled in my face, humping me...I could barely even get out of the bear hug he had me wrapped up digging his "hooks" in my sides, pinning my arms down. LOL I had my GF pull that MF off me and put him up.
If i had to attach the word dominant dog to a dog or two, he would be one of them...another would be a dog I had that actually ran downfield and grabbed the decoy and humped him instead of biting him...LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I am on the fence, what about dogs that leg wrap or body wrap people and hump them? I see the confident thing too...but I do see alot of dogs grabbing people, other dogs, and objects and humping them...so what is that? LOL...

I got a dog in once to use as a stud that was really pushy, a 130 lb presa...I did some bitework with him earlier in the day, letting the dog think he really beat me up....brought it the living room at night, and it started nosing and pushing us around to be petted. He was super cool until I gave him a firm NO and pushed him away,then his look kinda changed...as soon as I stood up the dog jumped to his hind legs, wrapped me up in a bear hug and growled in my face, humping me...I could barely even get out of the bear hug he had me wrapped up digging his "hooks" in my sides, pinning my arms down. LOL I had my GF pull that MF off me and put him up.
If i had to attach the word dominant dog to a dog or two, he would be one of them...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I see different sets of behaviors being described when people try to explain what dominance is or isn't. Not a word I'd ever use lightly to describe a dog. I've seen many dogs people describe as dominant that I don't think are dominant at all. And whether directed at the handler, strangers or other animals, 'displays of dominance' don't make a dominant dog, but I guess you could argue that point if the dog gets the response it desired from it.

To me, Faro Policia is probably the only dog I've known that I'd call 'dominant'. He had a warm and friendly character to his handlers, but when an unknown person that was potentially a threat approached, he would stand still and watch like he was saying _'yeah, just come a little closer so I can --' _and people would just stop dead in their tracks. His mindful vigilance and confident demeanor, and some tangible quality of 'forceable presence' about him made people or other dogs mind their step around him.

I still to this day, don't really know what I'd label as dominance. If I had to, I'd say Don's pretty close. But I disagree if he makes to understand that a lesser dog lacking confidence is the only kind of dog that displays dominant behavior. There are usually more accurate terms available to describe each instance of what we're perceiving. If we were talking about people, who would you say is a 'dominant person'? A bully that get's away with it? A confident person that _doesn't assert_ their will?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I am on the fence, what about dogs that leg wrap or body wrap people and hump them? I see the confident thing too...but I do see alot of dogs grabbing people, other dogs, and objects and humping them...so what is that? LOL...
> 
> I got a dog in once to use as a stud that was really pushy, a 130 lb presa...I did some bitework with him earlier in the day, letting the dog think he really beat me up....brought it the living room at night, and it started nosing and pushing us around to be petted. He was super cool until I gave him a firm NO and pushed him away,then his look kinda changed...as soon as I stood up the dog jumped to his hind legs, wrapped me up in a bear hug and growled in my face, humping me...I could barely even get out of the bear hug he had me wrapped up digging his "hooks" in my sides, pinning my arms down. LOL I had my GF pull that MF off me and put him up.
> If i had to attach the word dominant dog to a dog or two, he would be one of them...


Over stimulated ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually, to me a lesser dog will never be a dominate dog as to what I consider dominate. I did say that in any given situation, where most dogs fall, is that if the other dogs surrounding him are less than he is, he is the dominate dog only in that situation....but he will never cut the mustard in my mind as a dominate dog. You were right about one thing in particualr Daryl, you can tell a truly dominate dog by how other dogs act around him. When all other dogs move out of the way when he walks through, there is a reason. He doesn't even have to growl. When the bad boys get up and move, you know you have the real deal.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby said,


> I had my GF pull that MF off me and put him up.


Guess that says it all. From what you said here, I don't think you "had" her do anything Joby. ....I bet you asked her real nice.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually, to me a lesser dog will never be a dominate dog as to what I consider dominate. I did say that in any given situation, where most dogs fall, is that if the other dogs surrounding him are less than he is, he is the dominate dog only in that situation....but he will never cut the mustard in my mind as a dominate dog. You were right about one thing in particualr Daryl, you can tell a truly dominate dog by how other dogs act around him. When all other dogs move out of the way when he walks through, there is a reason. He doesn't even have to growl. When the bad boys get up and move, you know you have the real deal.


I think you would need to be more specific than that Don, that is pretty much the reaction my dog receives from other dogs and I don't consider him dominant whatever that means. He is a confident dog that doesn't posture or get (overtly) insecure about stuff, I had read that as not sending out challenging signals to other dogs, but just that he was coming through and he's cool about it. I have related that more to self assurety and inate social skill, presence if you like.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maggie, I had this written in that post also but, decided to take it down." Now, all in usnison, that"s how, other dogs act around my dog!!!". I took it down rather than poke fun. I knew when I wrote it that is what many would perceive. And you are the winna!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

To better clarify for you Maggie, "When real dogs move out of the way."


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

You know something Don, you're such an arsehole sometimes! You really ought to get out some more...there is a whole world much bigger than the USA you know! 

You're a classic....you reckon you have the 'ultimate' on this topic and look what a patronising and insecure response!

I was pointing out that your description could do with a little more specifics....I wasn't actually challenging it...but you were much too insecure and cocksure to see that!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> To better clarify for you Maggie, "When real dogs move out of the way."


 
What's a real dog Don ? What's a real dog when it moves out the way ?? You seen and experienced them all have you ? You're the authority on 'real dogs' ? 

I've also cut my post short....feeling generous tonight :wink:. Cur ! LOL .


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ok let me give it a shot here...

I dont think i ever owned a dominant dog...and i have had a hell of a lot of dogs and not all of them nice of comfy or friendly at all...non of these traits mean they were dominant dogs in my eyes...it ment to me they were trying to improve or change their situation by any means possible to them...a dog in my eyes is an opportunist...its his task and nature to improve his standing within the social ranks and he will do this no matter his shape size color....and ofcourse many of you are going to disagree with me over this LOL...ill take it one step further...a dominant dog does not exist in society...the only true dominant dog we can still find is the one running out there free in nature doing its thing...its not a fighter, stubborn bastard, evil ****er...its a confident packleader that doesnt have to assert itself 24/7 in order to know its place in the way of things...its arogant for lack of a better word...it simply doesnt feel most issues are worth the time of day and if the are worth it he will deal with it swiftly and securly and go on with businness as usual....if anyone here says they have a "dominant" dog then i can well and truly state that i feel sorry for them...since then they are not at the head of their household but the dog is! 

a mean, vicious, rowdy, angry, badtempered unruly ****er with attitude does not a dominant dog make...our errors did and the way we breed for certain traits made dogs what they are which is not dominant just more persistant in my eyes...

ok now you can all jump on me and tell me im wrong


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> You know something Don, you're such an arsehole sometimes! You really ought to get out some more...there is a whole world much bigger than the USA you know!
> 
> You're a classic....you reckon you have the 'ultimate' on this topic and look what a patronising and insecure response!
> 
> I was pointing out that your description could do with a little more specifics....I wasn't actually challenging it...but you were much too insecure and cocksure to see that!


..

Maggie, it was never my desire to be like anyone so I just never worry much about it. I also didn't take it as a challenge. Anything but actually. I said I knew for a fact that some would jump up and say it fit the description of their pookie. I just can't see that as a challenge. Look at it this way also, I am not a complete asshole because I always stayed out of your dogs health posts. I did have opinions but kept them to myself. Take it from me, he is lucky to have you instead of me. On the other hand, maybe he's not....so give me a ittle credit. LOL


Visalize this Lass, you jump to the conclusion because I may be sarcastic that I am insecure. Never would accure to you that it may be simple annoyance from the predictability of a few of the posters that need a picture drawn for them.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Story from my dog park days. I had a rotti mix who was queen of the dog park. She would guard her toys from the other dogs and thump puppies and was a middle of the pack dominant dog. There was another dog owner with a pair of rotties - sometimes he would socialize with the dog park people, sometimes he would just walk the perimeter of the park. There was never an issue with his dogs. 

I ran into the rotti guy one day as I was leaving the park and he was coming in. My super tough (not really) bitch stopped, spit out her ball (unheard of) rolled over and pissed herself as his two dogs ambled over to her. No overt signs of anything from his dogs. No posturing, no noise - any body language they put out was so subtle as to be unnoticeable - to me, anyway. The sniffed her and walked off. It was a display of submission I had never seen from her and never saw again. I can only think that what I saw was true dominance from dogs that had nothing to prove.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Ok let me give it a shot here...
> 
> I dont think i ever owned a dominant dog...and i have had a hell of a lot of dogs and not all of them nice of comfy or friendly at all...non of these traits mean they were dominant dogs in my eyes...it ment to me they were trying to improve or change their situation by any means possible to them...a dog in my eyes is an opportunist...its his task and nature to improve his standing within the social ranks and he will do this no matter his shape size color....and ofcourse many of you are going to disagree with me over this LOL...ill take it one step further...a dominant dog does not exist in society...the only true dominant dog we can still find is the one running out there free in nature doing its thing...its not a fighter, stubborn bastard, evil ****er...its a confident packleader that doesnt have to assert itself 24/7 in order to know its place in the way of things...its arogant for lack of a better word...it simply doesnt feel most issues are worth the time of day and if the are worth it he will deal with it swiftly and securly and go on with businness as usual....if anyone here says they have a "dominant" dog then i can well and truly state that i feel sorry for them...since then they are not at the head of their household but the dog is!
> 
> ...


Alice, there are dominate dogs, as stated earlier, I refer to them as the ultimate dogs. Dominate fits many situations that may not involve dominate dogs. Here is what they are like in public. They are straight up cool. Take them to a dog park and they will stand there sizing up the dogs there until they spot the baddest dog. They then stroll through every dog to that dog and stand in front of him. They don't growl, they don't posture. They are just making sure they know their reign is over. Doesn't matter if it is a rottie, gsd or what ever, the dog in question bows out and once the ritual is done, my dog goes off and has a good time. They never set on small dogs....never. There have been some minor skirmishes with bulldogs but bulldogs are not about dominance, they just don't back down from a good challenge. That is dominance but many would not recognize it because it is very low keyed and the dogs never have to back up there play outside of a few bulldogs. They do their challenging like gentlemen and let the other dog decide how it is going to go down. 

They are a joy individually but present problems and have to be kept separate with electricity. One male to a yard. They try to mark anyone in the yard including me as if they are saying I can be dominate but, they can back their dominance up. Their joy in life is going head to head with bears and boars. When it is over, the walk back to the truck and I staple those needing it and administer antibitics.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> Story from my dog park days. I had a rotti mix who was queen of the dog park. She would guard her toys from the other dogs and thump puppies and was a middle of the pack dominant dog. There was another dog owner with a pair of rotties - sometimes he would socialize with the dog park people, sometimes he would just walk the perimeter of the park. There was never an issue with his dogs.
> 
> I ran into the rotti guy one day as I was leaving the park and he was coming in. My super tough (not really) bitch stopped, spit out her ball (unheard of) rolled over and pissed herself as his two dogs ambled over to her. No overt signs of anything from his dogs. No posturing, no noise - any body language they put out was so subtle as to be unnoticeable - to me, anyway. The sniffed her and walked off. It was a display of submission I had never seen from her and never saw again. I can only think that what I saw was true dominance from dogs that had nothing to prove.


So, were one or both rotties dominant?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby said,
> 
> 
> Guess that says it all. From what you said here, I don't think you "had" her do anything Joby. ....I bet you asked her real nice.


It was more like...GET THIS mf'ER outta HERE...now! which she did no problem...
i kept the dog for two weeks, without another problem...just never told him NO or made him do anything after that, except mount my bitch..a bunch of times...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Alice, there are dominate dogs, as stated earlier, I refer to them as the ultimate dogs. Dominate fits many situations that may not involve dominate dogs. Here is what they are like in public. They are straight up cool. Take them to a dog park and they will stand there sizing up the dogs there until they spot the baddest dog. They then stroll through every dog to that dog and stand in front of him. They don't growl, they don't posture. They are just making sure they know their reign is over. Doesn't matter if it is a rottie, gsd or what ever, the dog in question bows out and once the ritual is done, my dog goes off and has a good time. They never set on small dogs....never. There have been some minor skirmishes with bulldogs but bulldogs are not about dominance, they just don't back down from a good challenge. That is dominance but many would not recognize it because it is very low keyed and the dogs never have to back up there play outside of a few bulldogs. They do their challenging like gentlemen and let the other dog decide how it is going to go down.
> 
> They are a joy individually but present problems and have to be kept separate with electricity. One male to a yard. They try to mark anyone in the yard including me as if they are saying I can be dominate but, they can back their dominance up. Their joy in life is going head to head with bears and boars. When it is over, the walk back to the truck and I staple those needing it and administer antibitics.


So you are saying that your truely dominant dogs will fight each other, but not any other dogs because they are lesser dogs? 

Have you ever seen any "ultimate dogs" other than yours? Presumably if your ultimates met another dominant dog they would fight then you think? Just that you never meet any other dominant ones?

Since you mentioned it do you agree that pissing on things/people is at least a sign of dom dogs? Yours at least?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> So you are saying that your truely dominant dogs will fight each other, but not any other dogs because they are lesser dogs?


In the blink of an eye. Just takes eye contact. 



Jennifer Coulter said:


> Have you ever seen any "ultimate dogs" other than yours? Presumably if your ultimates met another dominant dog they would fight then you think? Just that you never meet any other dominant ones?


In the blink of an eye if the other dog chooses that route. What makes them special is they are so confident that they leave it open for the other dog to make the choice. Even the bull breeds. There could be 50 people standing there watching what is taking place and they would all think my dog was being a perfect gentleman. There show no aggression, they just stand there staring. In all the times I have seen different dogs interact with them, not one outside of bull dogs has ever accepted the challenge. That will give you an idea how hard it is to come by dogs of this nature. Several years back, a fellow brought his two airedales to go hog hunting with me. He had a 2 year old that he had picked up as a pup from me and one he bred out of two other dogs. Both males. He got his out, I had mine out. His dog jumped Geronimo on the spot. We got them broke up and Magnum and his dog hit it. His other airedale, stood their and if he got in the way, the other dogs just shouldered him out of the way. They had zero interest in him because he was not in their class.....and he didn't offer to jump in. This type of dog is only interested in being the top dog. Nature of the beast. They simply won't tolerate an equal. My dogs will tolerate each oither while hunting because the real fight is with game. When they come back to the truck, I have two cattle prods to facilitate getting them in individual crates in one piece. I keep two prods on hand because they can turn faster than I can move and have broke a lot of the wands off. You have to realize, there are some fine dogs oput there but dogs are like people, very few of them are real scrappers, most will back out of a fight and these are 70 lb to 100 lb terriers. You see this reluctance to fight with less confident dogs that walk around each other trying to bluff the other out of an actual fight. These dogs don't bluff but they are extremely good at what they were bred to do.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> Since you mentioned it do you agree that pissing on things/people is at least a sign of dom dogs? Yours at least?


That is the way I read it but that is up for debate. Never had any other dogs do it. All of mine do it. I think, while they let me contol things, and they do it pretty gracefully, they have to retain something of what makes them what they are. I will give them that because it is better than them openly challenging me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Just to clarify, I have put pictures up of BlackJack. I decided I was going to have a house dog after all these years. A dog to ride in the truck and go places with me. I chose the next to the last pick of the litter simply because he will make a better dog for what I wanted. I am not hung up on the toughest dog, I AM hung up on which can perform a specific task best. In this case, just paling around.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> So, were one or both rotties dominant?


Not sure. Perhaps it was that there was a pair of them and together they were very strong. It's not so much what they did, which was nothing more than approach my dog calmly as far as I could tell, it was the extreme submission from my dog, which was totally out of character for her, that made me think there was some kind of dominance thing going on.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Don although I can agree/ relate to some of what you say... Don, I'd have to wonder how many of these dogs you have come across of other breeds were. Not much more than family pets because not many owners of. "Dominate" working dogs are gonna let them romp around with other dogs and what you are describing honestly doesn't seem that rare.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am going to throw some other behaviors out there that you see in these males but not the females. Some behaviors may be linked to the dominance while others I know are because of the way it is done. They have their moments just like we do. I talk about BlackJack being reliable in the house....and he is 100%. He was next to the last pick in the litter but is the one at 9 mo grabbed my hand and told me to back off. That was settled right then and their and he knows that will not fly so they resort to other thing like what happend a couple of days ago. He came strolling into the computer room to say hi. I was busy and pushed him away and told him to go lay down. He left the room and I heard him come back in but didn't pay any attention. I heard a noise that didn't sound right and turned around. There he was, 16 mo and has never peed in the house. He was coldly staring me right in the eye and trying to pee on me. When I turned and we made eye contact, he put his leg down and just walked out of the room. When you have been around these dogs long enough, you can separate the straight up FK you defiant attitudes from other behavior. Normally because they can look you dead in the eye and do stuff they know is going to piss you off. Dogs have a good sense of fair vs unfare when working with them. I have clipped a few of them across the head for being what I perceived as stupid. If they think it is unfair, you will know by the fk you look. While some dogs may challenge you right then, these males will go get something of yours and destroy it....then they bring it and drop it at your feet so you know exactly what happened. The clincher is they do it with full eye contact. The direct stare is the dead giveaway that, in their mind, you have crossed the line. Interesting dogs to work with because they have a subtle way of letting you know that it is a two way street. You see none of this with the females.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> Don although I can agree/ relate to some of what you say... Don, I'd have to wonder how many of these dogs you have come across of other breeds were. Not much more than family pets because not many owners of. "Dominate" working dogs are gonna let them romp around with other dogs and what you are describing honestly doesn't seem that rare.
> 
> T


Good point Tracey. In situation in public dog areas most are definitely pet dogs as are the dogs people have gotten from me. They are actually all raised as pet dogs but the dogs from here always look for the one dominate dog. I wouldn't even consider taking my personal dogs to a dog park or beach. I don't take my personal dog in public at all. They are working dogs and the work they do requires them to work with no handler. Some of these situation actually happen in the field. Dan is the trainer that has Cowboy, BlackJacks brother. Dan is a dog trainer and was getting his B & T's in the van to take them to where he could work them with heavy distraction. He had Cowboy on leach as he came around the back of the van and the neighbors 5 yr old AB was there. Dan said it happened so fast it took him a second to get it under control. Cowboy was 13 mo old. The AB was taken to the vet to get a 4 " cut down the shoulder stitched up. 

The results wouldn't be any different really with working dogs. I can see the mals getting in over their heads real quick just by their nature. The dogs pay no attention to the pet level dogs anyway. I am also assuming by working dogs you are referring to civil dogs because few sport dogs are really serious dogs and only do it because they always win. I actually tried to get a Dr in S D to take his dog up to the training session at Carols when Jeff was there. He thought about it and declined because it may cause more than it was worth and he isn't that comfortable handling the dog unless he is bird hunting.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am going to throw some other behaviors out there that you see in these males but not the females. Some behaviors may be linked to the dominance while others I know are because of the way it is done. They have their moments just like we do. I talk about BlackJack being reliable in the house....and he is 100%. He was next to the last pick in the litter but is the one at 9 mo grabbed my hand and told me to back off. That was settled right then and their and he knows that will not fly so they resort to other thing like what happend a couple of days ago. He came strolling into the computer room to say hi. I was busy and pushed him away and told him to go lay down. He left the room and I heard him come back in but didn't pay any attention. I heard a noise that didn't sound right and turned around. There he was, 16 mo and has never peed in the house. He was coldly staring me right in the eye and trying to pee on me. When I turned and we made eye contact, he put his leg down and just walked out of the room. When you have been around these dogs long enough, you can separate the straight up FK you defiant attitudes from other behavior. Normally because they can look you dead in the eye and do stuff they know is going to piss you off. Dogs have a good sense of fair vs unfare when working with them. I have clipped a few of them across the head for being what I perceived as stupid. If they think it is unfair, you will know by the fk you look. While some dogs may challenge you right then, these males will go get something of yours and destroy it....then they bring it and drop it at your feet so you know exactly what happened. The clincher is they do it with full eye contact. The direct stare is the dead giveaway that, in their mind, you have crossed the line. Interesting dogs to work with because they have a subtle way of letting you know that it is a two way street. You see none of this with the females.


 
So, next to the last pick in your scheme of things means what? And are you saying the better picks can't function as house/truck dogs? I'm kinda with Tracy, we don't do doggie parks and they are trained to not interact with dogs in other things so how this all manifests itself in the dog/people interaction setting is what's most interesting to me. I guess you're saying that how the dominance manifest itself with dogs is the same as people with your airedales? I'm still not quite sure how your working scenario works. You load them up. You can turn them loose as a male/male pair to locate the hog. Because you have to doctor, I assume they engage the hog. Somehow they manage the trip back to the truck after the engagement but you need a cattle prod to load them up?

Terrasita


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## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

Butch Cappel said:


> The scientist that started the entire "alpha-dominant" dog thing in the seventies David Mech, has now retracted all of those theories because they were based on artificial study situations. So it is truly a worn out, overused term tha few really know why they use it.
> 
> If you replace dominant with the word Confident, then apply Dons description, I think you would have a much more accurate description of dogs and their personalities.


That is exactly what I was getting at.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> That is exactly what I was getting at.


He didn't retract. It just became the difference between captive and non-captive and familial heirachy vs. hiercharchy through might makes right. I say he bailed to the non-dominant interest groups. Furthermore, there are other studies besides his. Regardless there was still heirarchy and I guess you will have rank based on degree of confident and the confident will do what's necessary to maintain that rank or in Don's case, at least constantly let you know that he doesn't give a crap about yours. I had a Doberman as a kid who couldn't stand my brother. Depending on what degree of pissed off he was: take Ramon's shirt off the line and sit on it; rip a sleeve out and sit on it; or the ultimate, shred it and lay in the pile. Now Tippy never performed any of these antics with me and my brother was always teasing him and trying to get some type of rise outta him. Khira's brother Izzy likes to hunt moles. His owner made him give it up. He gave it up but several minutes later walked up and hiked his leg on her. Izzy really does think he is the stronger of the two.

Terrasita


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## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh, I should add, most people here WANT a fair amount of dominance in the dog for the work they do. Its not really given that much thought. As far as the dominance hierchy debate--that's the tree hugging pet community mostly. I select against outright submissivness so can't comment on those. I also don't "manage" the dominants. At some point, we might have a come to jesus and they realize I buy the dog food and we don't have to revisit it. There are some people who have the super dominants, so maybe they can comment on life with the ones where the handler challenge or even aggression tends to be ongoing.
> 
> Terrasita


I wanted a discussion, not some high horse crap. At least that is how it reads. 

So what is 'dominant' behavior to you?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Like I said T, I don't do dog parks or take my working stock in public. They are "au naturale". What you see is what they are. Yes, they have no problem grabbing a 350 lb bear or hog by the face. They all work the head. No heelers. They are a totally different type of dog than what you have had experience with T. These dogs, by nature, do not wait for the fight to come to them, they go looking for it. They have to be top dog but have to fight to be top dog.
How do I know what the dogs are like if I don't go to dog parks? Because I have sold a lot of pups. I have visited a lot of people that do go to dog parks and I get to go and observe.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kirstyn, confidence is everything. I pick my pup at 4 weeks according to confidence levels as you can't see many of the other points at that age. The rest is pretty much how they turn out. The most confident dog will always use the tools he is born with better. Thje real dominate dogs have, lets say, some peculiarities to their behavior. Why? Because they have to maintain some of what makes them what they are while we take everything else away from them. I give them that because if I take away what little they have left, they just are not going to be the same dog. They are going to be like people and eventually they are going to demand payback. By letting them vent a little, it keeps them thinking they are in charge because they think they are letting me be in charge. Actually, we have just leaned to co habitate. I give them what they need, they do like wise. Without that, things are just not going to go well.....and they can kick my azz also. I don't walk the yard in protective gear. It is a balancing act. I don't at all disregard dominance because it is there, but, much of it is situational.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

A wise man once said something to the effect, "Every time you push a dog to perform something that is not natural, you have to take an equal amount of what is natural away". I try to keep that in mind when they flip me off. I let them have a few minor indiscretions so it avoids the major ones.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> I wanted a discussion, not some high horse crap. At least that is how it reads.
> 
> So what is 'dominant' behavior to you?


 
A little defensive are we??? If you consider my response high horse crap then you yourself might have hierchy issues. If you wanted to debate David Mech and the studies regarding the existence or non-existence of dominance hierchies amongst dogs, we've been there done that recently and you really didn't say that. The dominance you described for most people on here really isn't dominant and the submission is a cull. As I said, most people here don't too much care. They house the dogs as what works and they select for dominance because it adds to the work. Most of us that run dogs together as a group will note that there is a hierchy amongst them. If you have a couple that just can't get along its because they will not give to one another. The human part of the equation at times can trump this. If its a real PITA and you don't want vet bills you separate and call it a day. As for dominant behavior amongst my own, the most extreme wrapped his teeth around my husband's arm at 16 months. He got over that in a session and we didn't revisit it. I don't have ongoing dominant displays toward me that I would really label dominance or even actively remember. Since I select for it to a certain degree, its a given and I train with it. With the work that we do, we want the confidence. I can't use a submissive dog with the type of stock work I like to do. Its unsafe for me and the dog. Like I said, we CHOOSE the most confident puppies to work with. Its not OMG he's dominant, how am I going to have to manage it. My Dad is in his 70s. Truth be told, my stepmother shouldn't have bought him the high drive confident Czech line GSD that she did. Too much drive for sure for a dog that is supposed to hang out in the family room. At 16 weeks, he would get in Dad's recliner and growl. That's pretty cocky dominant. Funny thing though, he tried them all except me. I show up and take all the friggin collars off, look him in the eye and tell him to act like he's had some home training and its ohhhh, okay. He's prey driven and busy. For me, he lays at me feet. On a walk with a nylon buckle collar, he wouldn't dare put tension in the lead. So is he really that dominant???? No. He considers the others weak either physically or mentally and he tries them. Treat him like and expect him to act like he has some sense and he does. He tried that snapping turtle bark that he uses on my step sister for a toy and I told him to get a clue. I started marker training and he picked up on that and worked really well with it. I see this dog a few times a year at the most. Told them he would start to settle in at 3 and he has. 

The term dominance can be relative. Does the dog display certain behaviors with some types of people and with certain types of handling or is he that way across the board. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> A wise man once said something to the effect, "Every time you push a dog to perform something that is not natural, you have to take an equal amount of what is natural away". I try to keep that in mind when they flip me off. I let them have a few minor indiscretions so it avoids the major ones.


 
This is essentially what goes on with stock dog training.


Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Like I said T, I don't do dog parks or take my working stock in public. They are "au naturale". What you see is what they are. Yes, they have no problem grabbing a 350 lb bear or hog by the face. They all work the head. No heelers. They are a totally different type of dog than what you have had experience with T. These dogs, by nature, do not wait for the fight to come to them, they go looking for it. They have to be top dog but have to fight to be top dog.
> How do I know what the dogs are like if I don't go to dog parks? Because I have sold a lot of pups. I have visited a lot of people that do go to dog parks and I get to go and observe.


 
Actually Don, I've had two dogs I've worked that got off on fight for the sake of fight and they won't give up until the animal submits. I actually trained Rory that if the other animal brought the fight, he could finish it. I swear he used to goad them into it if they gave the slightest indication. You haven't seen the bouv in the corner with a cow bucking and coming out at her or Rory with three rams on the kill at once. They wouldn't give it up and they were gonna come out on top or die trying. This mentality can be a PITA and completely nerve wracking for me. Khira weighs sixty pounds and she was attached to the cow's neck when it came out of the corner. After all the talk from the bouv community about "angry" I'd finally seen it. I haven't had her on cattle since. What's different with mine though is that I don't deal with displays towards me regardless of how they engage other animals. So its that ultimate question of whether animal vs. animal = animal vs. handler dominance. You seem to be saying for the dales/terriers, its the same. With the herders and that may be through selection, it seems to be different. Again, the super dominant "man" dog folks would have to weigh in.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

What I was referring to T is the difference in what the dogs were bred for as being totally different. These dogs have been bred for many generations for high pain tolerance and for a no holes bared battle. There is no defense. They are the aggressors always when it comes to game. Bouv's were bred for something else entirely, but, that doesn't mean they can't get angry with stock. Just the difference in purpose but it does affect the overall temperament.

There is no real aggression towards people with these dogs but I understand that many of the herders can display a lot of handler aggression. I think the difference lies in the fact that my dogs don't see me as a real threat. They just let me play boss like the allow lesser dogs to act tough. I am not a real challenge to them so they give me a pass. On the other hand, if I wanted less of a dog, like you said, I would have bred for less. I see no reason to take from the top of the heap and try to make him less than that through training or anything else.

To answer another question. The top of the heap makes great house dogs but I have a lot of them. I saw no reason to take from the top just to ride in the car and lay in my recliner as Jack is right now. It has been intersting in as much as Jack would still be more than a lot of people need....or should have. Being next to the last pick doen't really mean he is a lot less than the first pick but it does sound good in conversation. LOL He still tries to pee on me and has peed on others several times. LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What I was referring to T is the difference in what the dogs were bred for as being totally different. These dogs have been bred for many generations for high pain tolerance and for a no holes bared battle. There is no defense. They are the aggressors always when it comes to game. Bouv's were bred for something else entirely, but, that doesn't mean they can't get angry with stock. Just the difference in purpose but it does affect the overall temperament.
> 
> LOL


Don, anyone with a hard bouv will tell you they feel nothing if they truly amp up. Pain means fight harder, if they feel it and I'm not really sure they do. Have known a couple to go right through e-collars and the one was amped in a stock situation. It was a bouv that wrapped his teeth around hubby's arm. He's 14 1/2 now laying at my feet while we listen to the kid playing Chet Baker on his trumpet. He's been truly a remarkable dog and has taught me a lot. I recently told his breeder--find me another like him and we'll take it. The challenge was in adolescence and dealt with, we didn't see it again. This is a dog that a trainer remarked "in the wrong hands, he'd be dangerous." I don't really think there's anymore handler aggression than what you've described with your terriers. I think what has been pointed out and is apparent between the two threads is that frustration aggression can be wrongly labeled as dominant. Your description was a good one. The dominance doesn't happen in the context of stress/adrenalin/frustration---release aggression. You get that cold stare and deliberate action whether its refusal, a warning growl or ultimately teeth. 

Terrasita


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Here's an example of dominance. My wife has a teacup Shi Tzu bitch,named Sofie. I have eaten steaks biggfer than she is. She might weigh 3 pounds. She has other little dogs (Maltese and ShiTzus) that are twice as large as Sofie. Sofie walks in the room and the other dogs get out of the way. Sher doesn't push the point but you can see that the other dogs respect her. When she goes to the vet, she acts the same way, cool and confident. I always laugh as a lot of the larger dogs get out of her way. She doesn't back down, but doesn't push the point. Thats what I consider to a dominant dog.


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## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

Dwyras Brown said:


> Here's an example of dominance. My wife has a teacup Shi Tzu bitch,named Sofie. I have eaten steaks biggfer than she is. She might weigh 3 pounds. She has other little dogs (Maltese and ShiTzus) that are twice as large as Sofie. Sofie walks in the room and the other dogs get out of the way. Sher doesn't push the point but you can see that the other dogs respect her. When she goes to the vet, she acts the same way, cool and confident. I always laugh as a lot of the larger dogs get out of her way. She doesn't back down, but doesn't push the point. Thats what I consider to a dominant dog.


I agree


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## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

"The term dominance can be relative. Does the dog display certain behaviors with some types of people and with certain types of handling or is he that way across the board"

Now were getting somewhere. Elaborate and discuss...I know what you are talking about, but wanted to hear your opinion on it. After all, you have a lot to say ;-)

ps: Not so much high horse crap with the first post...to put it better it just 'sounded' snarky when there is no reason at all to be that way.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

I had a pet dog try to bite me in the face yesterday while training it.... I think that counts.

hehehehe





Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> What, in the opinion of the users of this forum, defines a dominant dog/behavior for you?
> Is the dog just always dominant every waking moment? Or are there phases of it?
> Is it a matter of not letting other dogs play, or going as far as being a 'control freak' and acting aggressive to get their way?
> What about dogs that will show full submission to their human owner(roll over on back when you greet them, try to lick under your jaw, backing off naturally, listening to commands, giving up toys and food without hesitation or growling, etc) but also show dominant behavior as well? In fact, how do you all compare and contrast submission with dominance?
> ...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I guess Rook sure thought of himself as dominant (Cak Piscena Boure X Pida Anrebri).

Could nearly rip my arm off playing tug, and wasn't very nice about it. I think he thought he was tougher than me, and he did snap at me a couple times while I was attempting to grab him while during a session of fencefighting with dogs. Part displacement aggression, but part beligerence also.

Took a lot of long sessions of hard corrections over a period of months to break him of cat aggression. He hardly cared what "no" meant, and didn't have much respect to comply in what was designated 'off-limits.'

As a 12 weeks old pup, he was challenging any dog that looked him in the eye, even a pair of Neo. mastiffs. This 8 month old pic was about the time he saw his first helper, and he was very ready to rock'n roll, not at all thinking it was a game.

But he wouldn't fit Don's description of _'a dominant dog not needing to display dominance'_, because he definitely wanted to do some tromping.

Jeff O. mentioned once that his "assertive dominance" might have been due something to the effect that he only had one testicle descended, and sometimes causes a dog to overproduce testoserone?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So what happened to him. Were you able to train him for sports or work?

Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yes, I would have been. He was a really nice dog that had what it took and enjoyed our training. But, I didn't want to waste my efforts on a dog that would be frowned upon for breeding, and there was only room for one dog so independantly minded. I'd not want two, and was intending to get another strong willed dog. So, I sold him to a LEO for home protection in a California rural setting.

My following prospect was Hutch van Tiekerhook, and I'm so much happier myself to have a strong dog, yet with such great desire to fulfil my wishes. We built the greatest bond I've had with any dog, and before then, I could not have known what I was missing.

That changed my perspective, my priorities in selection. Other stuff is really important, but IMO biddability means the most. Not just compliance, but real genuine enthusiasm to cooperate. Anyone who wouldn't agree, must think that's a trait that allows weakness, and never enjoyed a bond like ours. With that kind of cooperation, there's so much more potential for accomplishment, and with so much more ease.

So no, unlike the other guys you were perhaps refering to, I don't desire a dog that feels he must demonstate his strength by _initiating_ dominant behavior in a proactive way.

Since it would be a couple more years before Hutch would be ready as a producer, I also aquired a proven adult, Faro Policia, who had a few years left on him. I figured that would work out well timewise. Faro was a treasure for me as well, and while our bond was very good, he was not as consumed with a compulsion to meet the handler's needs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Did he produce the strength + biddability in his puppies?

Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

They're biddable/compliant rather than biddable/compulsory, and not when in an elevated state of prey or fight drive.

Auctually, their version of the characteristic is more similar to their mother's or Faro's. They don't put as much effort into proactively attempting to interact with me and interpreting my wishes, but always quickly comply and genuinely want to please. They're just not as compelled to make me the center of their universe and decipher what makes me tick.

Never really intending to keep them all as long as I have except Pitch, my better bond is with her. She's eager to train, but can mind her own if I let her.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I gotta agree its very relative when it comes to dominance. I like a dominate dog so I have selected on and for dominate traits. A dog with a lot of dominate traits, it is there from the beginning and Ive also had females show very strong dominate traits… One in particular. I called her a he/she. When we got her, we thought there was something (and the breeder as well) wrong with her tail as it NEVER went down like a bulldogs should lay. At 3-4 months I had to pull her off my male over a dominance fight (obviously the older dog didn’t see her as a threat). People were afraid of her but not that she ever gave them a reason, she just had that presence about her. She would bump into people almost like a “test” and no one was going to physically dominate her. By the time she was 8 months she was perm separated from my adult male as they got into a fight over a “pee spot”. At the time I was pretty green yet and was told to “hang” her… um yeah right. We learned pretty quickly that the way to reach her was NOT by being physical with her. That only taught her to be physical right back, but to bond with her through obedience. My husband struggled with her as she felt he was beneath her so then I had him start laying in the ob and you could see the difference. We got her under control where if she didn’t want to do something, she would “bitch” on a command but she would still do it. She was a humper and a leg lifter and a dirt kicker. She threw dominate traits pretty strongly and when she had her first litter, I think that was when she realized she was not a male. This bitch taught me more about dogs than any dog I have ever owned. Over the course of these dogs we have had several females show strong dominate traits. Lets see, I had a 4 wk old female puppy perm. scar my nose after I physically dominated her (hand cradle). Two 7 wk old female littermates that had to be perm separated and perm scared each other for life. The female puppy I have now, she will make a dog that generally displays dominate traits succumb to her even at 3-4 months old they would drop toys/ food for her and their owners were in shock lol. Even dogs that supposedly loved puppies, they all hated her lol. At 3 months, I introduced her to an older female, she tried to dominate the older dog so she was put her in her place, I had to pull the puppy off it was a fight she wasn’t going to lose (in her mind). Her sister at, I think, 5-6 months was humping the helper during bite work. Im sure there are more… those are just off the top of my head. My males are dominate but I have never had one take things personally like the bitches. They call them “bitches” for a reason lol. My current male, he is a strong hard dog and working him has been a challenge, he doesn’t take corrections personal AT ALL and is extremely resilient. My favorite trait about him…. He has easily accessible drive so that helps but its pretty much making him think its HIS idea. He is also a humper, so Im thinking in some cases it’s a sign. Overall in my experience, bonding is super important as is communication/ obedience. I would never intentionally send “mixed” signals. I think a dog showing a lot of dominate traits can make a great working dog and family dog….. w/ clear communication by being very black and white. In bulldogs things/ experiences may be a little different too as they were historically bred for very different things than the herders.
t


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