# breeder's guarantee



## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

A friend of mine wants to buy a german shephard puppy. Where I live there is not alot of breeders to choose from, My question is if they are a reputable breeder what kind of guarantee should they have for their puppies, like for their hips if someone is paying for a higher price dog, should they expect the dogs hips to be able to pass ofa certifacation, and if they dont what is a good breeders responsibility in it. I would appreciate any input.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I've offered a 5 year for _anything congenital_, except a 2 year on fair or better hips (+ necessary OFA certifying time). Never had any problems though, at any age. IMO, health should be high priority.

I think more than before, breeders are now allowing for 2 years than only 1 year on hips. But, if the dog's going to have it at two years, it should be evident in the prelims.

There are many breeders that will make good on your satisfaction though, without ever the need of a written contract. Just research the breeder before you buy.


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've offered a 5 year for _anything congenital_, except a 2 year on fair or better hips (+ necessary OFA certifying time). Never had any problems though, at any age. IMO, health should be high priority.
> 
> I think more than before, breeders are now allowing for 2 years than only 1 year on hips. But, if the dog's going to have it at two years, it should be evident in the prelims.
> 
> There are many breeders that will make good on your satisfaction though, without ever the need of a written contract. Just research the breeder before you buy.


 Should dogs with a normal hips be the only dogs that should be bred. If a person bred 2 dogs with a normal hips, that doesnt neccesarily mean that the puppies wont have a problem? One more question, If a person buys a puppy with future breeding in mind from you, and that dog has not reccomended hips to breed than do you replace that puppy, and if so under what conditions. I appreciate your feed back.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, this is a pet peeve of mine. a "guarantee" is worth the paper it's written on--maybe. so a puppy "contract" is nice, but you can't separate a reputable breeder from one that's not based upon one. and every breeder has some type of contract (well, 99% anyway).

with that said, i would ask for references from past buyers; find out if they breeder's had a pup/dog returned and if so, what happened to that pup/dog--and follow up on this; just cause they "say" they rehomed the animal, doesn't mean it was. if the breeder's unwilling to part with this info, let them know you'd be glad to provide your phone #, so the adopter can call YOU.

if the breeder's been in business more than, IDK, 5 yrs, and never had a dog returned, well--that's cool, but get references!!

i got burned (didn't take much to figure THAT out, right?) on my first dog, did a lot of research on my 2nd, including references and an independent check of the kennel (as it was too far to just drive over), and have never been happier. as a matter of fact, when i went down to pick up Ike, they had 3 adult dogs and one green dog that had been returned, all due to life circumstances (well, one was "too much dog" since sold to a K9 unit), and the breeder had driven to MA to pick up one of them.

bottom line is: a dog that she bred will NEVER be without a home, and she will find, and go way beyond the norm, to ensure that. THAT makes a reputable breeder--not a piece of paper. 

plus, and here's another big thing to look for: does the breeder work/train/trial their dogs? mine does, and she knows what she has. this is important, IMO. you can import all the titled dogs you want based on pedigrees, but unless you work the dogs you have and thier offspring, you don't know what you're actually producing.

rant over   hope it's a bit helpful...lol


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

as far as hip guarantees are concerned, i want one. but know going in that, unless you're a breeder,or trainer focussed on the nationals/worlds, by the time you even get prelims done, you're attached to the dog and probably wouldn't return it under most circumstances. 

which your friend might be, for all i know.


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

ann schnerre said:


> as far as hip guarantees are concerned, i want one. but know going in that, unless you're a breeder,or trainer focussed on the nationals/worlds, by the time you even get prelims done, you're attached to the dog and probably wouldn't return it under most circumstances.
> 
> which your friend might be, for all i know.


 Exactly, Some breeders probably count on that too.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't expect any guarantee because Ann is right, it's not worth it economically to fight a breeder. The only thing i would never accept from a breeder would be any limitations on the registration,


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh **** al, forgot about THAT. yep, no limited reg. i can see a breeder's rationale for it, but nope; i bought and paid for the dog, it's mine (just like my kids, haha). 

i think the only (kind of) exception would be in a situation where the dog is obviously unbreedworthy (undescended testicle), where full reg is offered, but only on the condition the dog is nuetered. and even that's not a "limited reg".


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree with Ann 100%. A breeder might have an outstanding guarantee, nothing less than OFA excellent......or what? Breeders usually offer a replacement pup, of their choosing, and usually the guarantee is not extended to the replacement. A shitter is a shitter, and if all the breeder has is crap it doesn't matter what is guaranteed. Nowadays just about all USA GSD breeders offer some sort of guarantee on hips or hips and elbows. Also take a hard look at the contracts. Some actually require you feed a certain food in order for the contract to be valid. Some only guarantee against "crippling" hip which is a very subjective term. Some will tell you they reserve the right to review the xrays and only then will make a determination of dysplasia. Just remember nobody in the world can guarantee any pup won't end up dysplastic (at least not yet). They can only tell you what they will do if your pup does end up dysplastic.


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

ann schnerre said:


> oh **** al, forgot about THAT. yep, no limited reg. i can see a breeder's rationale for it, but nope; i bought and paid for the dog, it's mine (just like my kids, haha).
> 
> i think the only (kind of) exception would be in a situation where the dog is obviously unbreedworthy (undescended testicle), where full reg is offered, but only on the condition the dog is nuetered. and even that's not a "limited reg".


 I have seen dogs that have been imported that sold for like 6ooo that had some training like med obedience, and med bite work, but I seen there reg and it said noche deplasen. I'm sure that is spelled wrong but is that often that dogs are imported from Germany with that low of rating on their hips?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I second what Ann says about the guarantee/contract being worth the paper it's printed on. Good breeders will honour theirs, fly by night, only for profit breeders may not.

I suspect there are a lot of less reputable breeders who count on the fact that many puppy buyers will be so attached to their dog by the time that issues surface that the owners will not be willing to give up the dog, especially if they think the breeder will just euthanize it. 

I have heard of different arrangements breeders have made in regard to problems - keep the original pup and take another, partial or full refund on the original pup, payment for corrective surgery. I think it's something to discuss with any breeder about what happens if the dog doesn't work out for whatever reason.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Depends on the breeder. 

We require prelims by 13 mos and finals by 26 mos. We want to know. If the dogs is a female, we work with the owner on heat cycles, if they fall around that timeframe. We updated our document to reflect fair or better. But, in the case of something happening, you work with the owner. Bottom line. That was our focus, since my own prior experience was not good years back.

And we prelim our own as well.

And Gabor is focused on the nationals/worlds, but he lets the dog grow up/have a relationship the 1st 1.5 years, minor work. 

We have 1st right of refusal and have exercised it in the past. You learn.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Some breeders wouldn't ask for the original dog to be returned, so it shouldn't be assumed. Just ask them about all your "what if" worries before you buy. But, if you're too suspicious as to seem accusative, or so overdetailed to the point of coming off as a pain in the a$$, you might be directed elsewhere.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

For me the bottom line is the guarantee is way far down on the list of priorities, it's more important that the breeder has earned an excellent reputation within the community, and is breeding solid, sound dogs. A bargain really never is a bargain.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

All of the GSD breeders that I know guarantee that the dogs will not be dysplastic in hips and elbows. But bear in mind that does not mean that the dog will have breeding quality hips, depending on what your opinion of breeding quality hips may be. Most of the breeders I know have gone to PennHip and don't breed anything higher than .3 on the PennHip scale. I do know breeders that place limited registration on the dog until the hips are scored and are good as way of making sure dogs with wrecked hips don't get bred. As far as guarantees go, I agree with what's been said already. You've got to do right by the buyer.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

We guarantee that we do all we can to reduce the odds of any genetic health problem. If a puppy from our kennel or an adult develops any genetic health problem we will replace that puppy or adult dog. I do not ask for the dog to be returned to us. You can return it if you wish and I will rehome it, or if you want to keep it that is fine too, and I will give you another puppy of the same pick that your puppy was from the next litter. I only ask for proof that the dog has a genetic health issue. I dont care what you feed him, or what surface he lives on, or what type of work you did with him at what age......if he has bad health, I consider that a genetic problem, not something you caused. This has happened twice in the last 5 years.
I will also replace puppies if they go to accomplished trainers and they are not working on a case by case basis. Usually I let the trainer keep that puppy and I will give them another puppy. This has only happened a few times in the last 5 years.
There is no way to guarantee that a puppy will work great as an adult, nor is there any way to guarantee that a dog will be 100% healthy as an adult. Just like we can not guarantee that of our own children. 
A good breeder does all they can to reduce the odds of any problems, and is willing to replace or refund the dog if a problem occurs.
Breeders charge a lot of money for dogs so I feel that it is important to get the customer the dog they are happy with.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike, for me that's what i want to hear from somebody i'm buying a dog from. No bullshit, here's the deal straight up. You're now on my approved breeders list (like that means anything), LOL


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> We guarantee that we do all we can to reduce the odds of any genetic health problem. If a puppy from our kennel or an adult develops any genetic health problem we will replace that puppy or adult dog. I do not ask for the dog to be returned to us. You can return it if you wish and I will rehome it, or if you want to keep it that is fine too, and I will give you another puppy of the same pick that your puppy was from the next litter. I only ask for proof that the dog has a genetic health issue. I dont care what you feed him, or what surface he lives on, or what type of work you did with him at what age......if he has bad health, I consider that a genetic problem, not something you caused. This has happened twice in the last 5 years.
> I will also replace puppies if they go to accomplished trainers and they are not working on a case by case basis. Usually I let the trainer keep that puppy and I will give them another puppy. This has only happened a few times in the last 5 years.
> There is no way to guarantee that a puppy will work great as an adult, nor is there any way to guarantee that a dog will be 100% healthy as an adult. Just like we can not guarantee that of our own children.
> A good breeder does all they can to reduce the odds of any problems, and is willing to replace or refund the dog if a problem occurs.
> Breeders charge a lot of money for dogs so I feel that it is important to get the customer the dog they are happy with.[/quote I think thats outstanding Mike, You are way above most breeders. I've been helping my friend do some research and theres alot of B.S out there. Would it be ok to give my friend your name and info, maybe have him get a hold of you when he is ready. I forget if you breed GSD or MALS or both. THANKS


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Debbie Dibble said:


> mike suttle said:
> 
> 
> > We guarantee that we do all we can to reduce the odds of any genetic health problem. If a puppy from our kennel or an adult develops any genetic health problem we will replace that puppy or adult dog. I do not ask for the dog to be returned to us. You can return it if you wish and I will rehome it, or if you want to keep it that is fine too, and I will give you another puppy of the same pick that your puppy was from the next litter. I only ask for proof that the dog has a genetic health issue. I dont care what you feed him, or what surface he lives on, or what type of work you did with him at what age......if he has bad health, I consider that a genetic problem, not something you caused. This has happened twice in the last 5 years.
> ...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Debbie Dibble said:


> A friend of mine wants to buy a german shephard puppy. Where I live there is not alot of breeders to choose from, My question is if they are a reputable breeder what kind of guarantee should they have for their puppies, like for their hips if someone is paying for a higher price dog, should they expect the dogs hips to be able to pass ofa certifacation, and if they dont what is a good breeders responsibility in it. I would appreciate any input.


 How do you put a guarantee to hips? What if the owner feeds the young puppy all day, it gets FAT, more weight and stress is placed on forming joints, and then the hips and elbows go? How is that the breeder's fault? Puppies are and will forever be a crap shoot!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> How do you put a guarantee to hips? What if the owner feeds the young puppy all day, it gets FAT, more weight and stress is placed on forming joints, and then the hips and elbows go? How is that the breeder's fault? Puppies are and will forever be a crap shoot!


you start by doing enough research to make sure that the people who get your puppies dont let their dogs get that obese. But even then I think a sound dog will have sound joints even if he is a little too heavy.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> you start by doing enough research to make sure that the people who get your puppies dont let their dogs get that obese. But even then I think a sound dog will have sound joints even if he is a little too heavy.


Take the same concept, issue a driver's test, then a license, and now you have created a sound and responsible driver...wrote too many tickets to prove that idea off! The idea is nice Mike but when people leave and the "face" comes off after they leave the driveway...then what. Back to the owner being responsible.

A history of "sound" hips can help, but unless you KNOW the history from the begining...you can still see a spook and owner issues can still arise. Why are there so many "good" pets in the SPCA? =D>


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

For starters you look at the history of dog ownership behind the people who you are considering placing a dog with. How well informed are they about the issue, what's there experience with it, what existing preventative or precautionary measures do they take to keep their dogs sound, do they exercise and care for their dogs responsibly, etc. This information should at least give you some idea of what to expect.

You can x ray pups as early as 9 wks using an extended view or 16 wks for PH, so at the very least - if you are really worried about it you could do an early film to give you some idea of what you are working with/sending off. Assuming of course you would want to wait till the pups are 9 wks before placing them.


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## Johannes Gilbertson (Jul 4, 2009)

*Mike, I wish I had bought my patrol dog from you. The vendor I bought from sells A LOT of dogs but their "guarantee" proved to be WORTHLESS when he got very sick with kennel cough induced pneumonia shortly after I took him home. *

*I have bought many dogs over the past 15 years and there is only one other breeder I personally know who offers a guarantee like yours. Well, at least I recommend you to people asking me where they should get their next working dog from! :mrgreen:*


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> We guarantee that we do all we can to reduce the odds of any genetic health problem. If a puppy from our kennel or an adult develops any genetic health problem we will replace that puppy or adult dog. I do not ask for the dog to be returned to us. You can return it if you wish and I will rehome it, or if you want to keep it that is fine too, and I will give you another puppy of the same pick that your puppy was from the next litter. I only ask for proof that the dog has a genetic health issue. I dont care what you feed him, or what surface he lives on, or what type of work you did with him at what age......if he has bad health, I consider that a genetic problem, not something you caused. This has happened twice in the last 5 years.
> I will also replace puppies if they go to accomplished trainers and they are not working on a case by case basis. Usually I let the trainer keep that puppy and I will give them another puppy. This has only happened a few times in the last 5 years.
> There is no way to guarantee that a puppy will work great as an adult, nor is there any way to guarantee that a dog will be 100% healthy as an adult. Just like we can not guarantee that of our own children.
> A good breeder does all they can to reduce the odds of any problems, and is willing to replace or refund the dog if a problem occurs.
> Breeders charge a lot of money for dogs so I feel that it is important to get the customer the dog they are happy with.


This is exactly why I bought a pup from you. BTW, he's doing SUPER & is all business! We trained in a big Casket warehouse last night. lol Nothing phased him and he was awesome in the work! Can't wait to come up there & train. BTW, the Dutchie female you sold Greg is a wonderfully EVIL bitch!  He is very pleased with her and there are several people wanting her if he ever decides to sell her.


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