# Stability issue



## Todd Setaghian (Dec 5, 2009)

So here is the situation with my 12 month old dutchie. I've had him since he was 3 months old and did the basics in introducing him to his new life. Took him to parks, walks, around people, other dogs, the whole bit. He has great ball drive, loves to be with other dogs, and perfect in the yard. He gets daily play time with my neighbors bulldog and a hour walk in the afternoons. Being a dutchie you'd think he would have some ba**s, but anytime we get around new people he turns into a little kitty and tries to run/hide from anyone trying to approach him. He's never been aggressive, never tried to defend me, the yard, nothing. He's FCI papered, but still has some nice work titles in his pedigree. Any suggestions to turn this character around. He's a pet and I intend on keeping him that way for the time being, but the whole insecurity issue bothers me.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Maybe Dutchies are the new and latest "ultimate must have dog" fast headed the way of the GSD in the 80s. Supreme home protector cum family companion, super dog, marketed that way, helped by KNPV youtube videos.

Cannot make a lion out of a lamb. Why not try heel work to music, flyball or frisbee.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ask the people politely not to approach the dog. Instead, ask them if they would just stand there with you and allow the dog to approach them. Have them ignore the dog (no talking, eye contact ect.....) 
Maybe keep a treat pouch on you and give the person a couple and when he approaches them, just have them open their hand so he can take them. At the point he takes them you can praise him quietly. 

Won't turn him into super dog, but it may help him get over the run/hide thing a little bit. 

Sounds like people are approaching him in the normal "oh look at the doggie" way that some do and it is too much for him right now.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Sounds like nerves to me...deal with it the best you can, but as a pet it isn't so bad!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Todd Setaghian said:


> So here is the situation with my 12 month old dutchie. I've had him since he was 3 months old and did the basics in introducing him to his new life. Took him to parks, walks, around people, other dogs, the whole bit. He has great ball drive, loves to be with other dogs, and perfect in the yard. He gets daily play time with my neighbors bulldog and a hour walk in the afternoons. Being a dutchie you'd think he would have some ba**s, but anytime we get around new people he turns into a little kitty and tries to run/hide from anyone trying to approach him. He's never been aggressive, never tried to defend me, the yard, nothing. He's FCI papered, but still has some nice work titles in his pedigree. Any suggestions to turn this character around. He's a pet and I intend on keeping him that way for the time being, but the whole insecurity issue bothers me.


 sounds like a normal FCI Dutchie to me.


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## Michele Fleury (Jun 4, 2009)

Yeah, what Carol said...

My female Dutch was like that when she was really young, and I used the food treats with strangers and it helped a lot. She is not friendly or gregarious, and other than a quick sniff she prefers to ignore strangers we meet out and about. She will bark and approach folks that come to the house and once I tell her it's ok, she leaves them alone. But if I ever had an issue with someone in the house or out in the field, I'm pretty sure she would defend.


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## Todd Setaghian (Dec 5, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> Ask the people politely not to approach the dog. Instead, ask them if they would just stand there with you and allow the dog to approach them. Have them ignore the dog (no talking, eye contact ect.....)
> Maybe keep a treat pouch on you and give the person a couple and when he approaches them, just have them open their hand so he can take them. At the point he takes them you can praise him quietly.
> 
> Won't turn him into super dog, but it may help him get over the run/hide thing a little bit.
> ...


That's exactly how it is Carol. They see me with this rare looking dog and they come up all 'lovey dovey' and he just doesn't like it at all. I've done the whole 'please ignore him' deal, but doesn't fix the issue. I'll try the treats too.



mike suttle said:


> sounds like a normal FCI Dutchie to me.


Mike I saw a few of your 'washouts' that were listed for adoption. Just curious on your honest opinion. Would you say that they would generally behave in the same way as my dutchie, or would they have a little more confidence in the circumstance I explained.



As a side note, this is my FIRST DOG EVER and up until now my guy has been a great starter for me. I know some of the more high energy workers that you all have wouldn't do so well with a first time dog owner, so I guess it sorta works out. Maybe if I had a more rambunctious dutchie things wouldn't have turned out as good as they have in terms of ease of care. I'll just work on the exposure more to see if he'll turn around a bit.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Todd Setaghian said:


> Mike I saw a few of your 'washouts' that were listed for adoption. Just curious on your honest opinion. Would you say that they would generally behave in the same way as my dutchie, or would they have a little more confidence in the circumstance I explained.


To be very honest with you, dogs with bad nerves usually are not given away, they go somewhere else. Most of my washouts just dont have the working character that I require, but most people like them just fine. To me it sounds like your dog has bad nerves. Maybe it can be worked through, but my guess is that it will never go away.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Todd,
What Mike said. It won't go away. With that said you can learn a lot about behaviour with your dog.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Funny that Al would come in here. I placed a washout with a guy from his club a couple months ago. The nerves of that dog were about as thin as I will allow to leave here, and I think Al would agree that that pup does not behave the way you described.


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

I have a 19 month old non-registered dutch. She doesn't want to have anything to do with anyone besides me and my family or anyone with a sleeve or a suit on.
She has always been "lippy" when the judge approaches to shake my hand. I guess maybe its nerves, but I just always thought of it as independence. She doesn't need anyone else to pet her to get any sort of comfort or gratification. 
Obviously its something I am always keeping my eye on in social situations, but I usually just mention that she doesn't like to be pet by strangers. Off lead I usually muzzle her and then no one wants to pet her anyway 
:mrgreen:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike, i saw that pup that one time and he was fine, lot's of prey and i believe he'll be okay with some exposure. He bit anything moving, lol


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## Todd Setaghian (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks for the input. Most definitely he has nerve issues when in places with strangers in close-proximity, but it's only when they approach to pet him. It's evident he doesn't like it, but if he's off lead in a backyard of a friend, he'll be more than happy to run around and just chill. He just doesn't like to be approached. I doubt this behavior can be turned around in terms of protection work b/c I think he'll crack under pressure, but I'm hoping he doesn't become aggressive as he gets older (non-neutered).


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Todd Setaghian said:


> That's exactly how it is Carol. They see me with this rare looking dog and they come up all 'lovey dovey' and he just doesn't like it at all. I've done the whole 'please ignore him' deal, but doesn't fix the issue. I'll try the treats too.


I would try the treats with someone you know and trust to do what you ask first.....

As for the people who insist on the "oh all dogs like me" and keep approaching, that is when I either stop being polite and tell them to stop OR just say "he bites" LOL


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2010)

Todd Setaghian said:


> Thanks for the input. Most definitely he has nerve issues when in places with strangers in close-proximity, but it's only when they approach to pet him. It's evident he doesn't like it, but if he's off lead in a backyard of a friend, he'll be more than happy to run around and just chill. He just doesn't like to be approached. I doubt this behavior can be turned around in terms of protection work b/c I think he'll crack under pressure, but I'm hoping he doesn't become aggressive as he gets older (non-neutered).


Please neuter the dog. The last thing you want is a litter off him. Sorry to be harsh but there is no reason to keep such a dog intact. And definitely have him assessed for your own liability issues and peace of mind. If he bites someone that is going to be a lot more expensive than an assessment by a behavior consultant.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So what you are saying is that the only time he gets weird is when people approach him. What if they are just walking by and not paying attention to him at all ?? Does he still do this ??

Does he just get smaller, or does he back off ?? Do his hackles come up ?? Does he growl ?? If someone is in the backyard with you, and pays no attention to him at all, does he eventually come up to them ??

How about if you are playing tug on a line ?? Does he seem interested, or does he shrink from that ??

How about environmentally ?? Does he shy from trash cans at night, or flinch a lot if things go bump in the night when on a walk ??

Sorry experts, but you left out a LOT of questions that would need to be answered to help this guy out. 

I have known dogs that just don't want to be touched at that age, some are junk some grow up and are civil.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I think Jeff is right. The dog is still pretty young, if he is ok with other things in the environment and just has problems with people it could be that he is going to have a higher amount of defense when mature. 

My first working line GSD I imported as a pup and she was nervous of people from 8 weeks until about 14 mos, when I asked her breeder, Dieter, about it, he told me at 2 yrs she would be fine. He said I should not force people on her but make her work around them. He was right, she ended up being a nice bitch. Honestly, if I hadn’t lived through it, I never would have believed the change. 

She never had any nervousness of noises or anything in her environment, only people. She matured out to be ok with confident people, but if someone acted hesitant around her, it was in her nature to want to be aggressive with them.

If you can find out what the lines behind the dog are like, that may help. I have seen FCI DS that are very nice confident dogs, and KNPV lines that are crap..so don’t judge a dog on its papers or lack of.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So what you are saying is that the only time he gets weird is when people approach him. What if they are just walking by and not paying attention to him at all ?? Does he still do this ??
> 
> Does he just get smaller, or does he back off ?? Do his hackles come up ?? Does he growl ?? If someone is in the backyard with you, and pays no attention to him at all, does he eventually come up to them ??
> 
> ...


I think alot of those questions should be asked, but as anything else, I still think it's nerves based on what information WAS provided, maybe I am jumping the gun, I have seen many dogs that are like that and very few that were NOT nerves. At 12 months, I don't think it's merely the fact that the dog doesn't want to be touched. Enviormentals may be sound and/or lacking, but how the dog handles the situation and reacts, overcomes are his nerves. 

I have seen dogs whose hackles come up and had nothing to do with nerves, out front of leash confident and no fear aggression etc. as well as papered or unpapered dogs, you have your share of terds in every bunch. 

I would take the dog everywhere and make any new situation a pleasant one building his confidence as much as possible.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Piloerection is not going to be the case if the dog is slinking.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> I have seen dogs whose hackles come up and had nothing to do with nerves, out front of leash confident and no fear aggression etc
> 
> 
> > One of my training partners has an old Czech book that explains body language. Hackles up with the tail up is a sign that a confident dog is ready to fight.


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## Todd Setaghian (Dec 5, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So what you are saying is that the only time he gets weird is when people approach him. What if they are just walking by and not paying attention to him at all ?? Does he still do this ??
> 
> Does he just get smaller, or does he back off ?? Do his hackles come up ?? Does he growl ?? If someone is in the backyard with you, and pays no attention to him at all, does he eventually come up to them ??
> 
> ...


He's perfectly fine walking at nights, in alleys, new places, passed people, cars, bikes, trash cans, gargage trucks, construction zones, playgrounds, the whole nine. It's only when we get in a situation where there iis a group of people that he gets uneasy. Even then, if i let him off leash in a park or yard where there are people he doesn't know, he'll be fine and do his own thing. It's the approaching that he doesn't like.

He will tug till his teeth fall off. Will chase anything that moves, but again if there's a new person in the situation, he's a bit reluctant to play as hard with the tug. He'll have a grip, but keep his eyes on the new guy.

As far as aggression. His hackles do come up if another dog barks at him, if something startles him, and has done it a few times when he saw an unkown person at night. I do see a slight increase in confidence after the sun goes down.

I've even taken him to the dog beach in Huntington, CA and he loved it. Tail up, running all over the place with the other dogs.

I've noticed that as he has freedom to run around and keep an eye on everyone he is totally ok, but as soon as someone tries to play chase with him or come up to us he gets nervous. He's given huff/puff barks here and there, but nothing crazy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Fcuk, where did all the experts go ??

So, how is it that knowing your dog doesn't like people, there are people out there trying to play chase with him ?? 

Lets see if I can pick apart his story, or IF his story will hold. 

Anyone taking bets ??

How about a poll. 

I say this guy ****ed up

How many think it is the dogs genetics ??

Sorry, but since no one replied, I have to make this a bit interesting.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

How many think it is the dogs genetics ??

Sorry, but since no one replied, I have to make this a bit interesting.[/quote]


BOTH!


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## Todd Setaghian (Dec 5, 2009)

The chasing thing has happened a few times and it wasn't a full on chase where someone was running after him. It was more of a playful approach to see how he would react. Most dogs take to a playful challenge and enjoy the fun. I don't sit and let people chase him and cause unnecessary stress if that's what you were assuming. Anyways, it's weird that we acts so calmly and confident in basically all other situations, but can't seem to get over strangers.


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2010)

Piloerection indicates arousal, period. It can be any kind of arousal. Some dogs hackle up during play and it is perfectly normal. You have to look at a whole helluva lot more than that.

Whether the guy f'ed up or not doesn't matter does it? The dog is the way it is and some sort of behavioral intervention might be something he should consider. At least get someone to actually look at the dog instead of posting some verbal snapshot here. Its necessarily genetics and environment together and there are ways to modify and/ or manage the dog's behavior either way.


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