# Water Recovery Training



## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Just got back from a SAR seminar in East Texas. Did beginning water recovery with my male bloodhound that I started in HR last year. Lisa Higgins was our instructor. She said she has been training water HR for 24years and never worked with a bloodhound on the water. Go figure!

My male is a horrendous swimmer, so we learned to keep a life vest on him. Fortunately we decided this before the run where he took a header into the water going after source! Once in the water he freaked out and swam to shore, so a swim in circles indication not gonna work! I also dont want to deal with gators trying to make him a snack (although at 100lbs he would be a very large mouthful!).

He obviously has an ultra sensitive nose, so he was picking up odor way out. His land indication at source is a sit, but I know he doesnt like to sit on unstable surfaces, and while the water was calm over the weekend, cant guarantee it will always be like that, so in those instances he might not give the final indication like he does on land. He did consistently hang himself over the edge of the boat when we got to source (keeping him on lead while staying way back.), so will see in the future if that is something we can use. 

Lisa had been loaned a 100 yr old femur and a jawbone and piece of skull approximately 1000yrs old. Those were set up on land to let the dogs try. Very very simple set up, but concealed from sight. My hound hit on all 3 very quickly. Not that I plan on doing old graves with him, but it was fun to try. 

I have access to a boat and divers, so am looking forward to doing some more water HR work with my hound. I was very thrilled that he worked it out so well.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Water work is fun. Lisa is certainly one of the experts in water, but the best water instruction, bar none, I ever got was from a NAPWDA MT who had never even done cadaver but had studied how the Germans did it.

After Beau's first pass on the boat he said get your prong and make him down until you read that he hits odor. Dang. We trained all of 9 "passes" in one day on the boat and nailed the NAPWDA cert on the boat a few weeks later. I was told we got closer to source than any of the other dogs.

We did convince him why, unlike in Germany, though we cannot have the dogs launch into the water! [gators]

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Love those old bones she has.
My friend's bloodhound (LE, trailing, sadly dying of cancer) loves HR - a bit too much! We took him with us to pick up some hides and he found every last one and tried to eat them. Fortunately, they were in glass jars and we suffered no losses.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Good luck with future training!...A common misconception people have is that all dogs automatically know how to swim...ain't so!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

mel boschwitz said:


> Just got back from a SAR seminar in East Texas. Did beginning water recovery with my male bloodhound that I started in HR last year. Lisa Higgins was our instructor. She said she has been training water HR for 24years and never worked with a bloodhound on the water. Go figure!
> 
> My male is a horrendous swimmer, so we learned to keep a life vest on him. Fortunately we decided this before the run where he took a header into the water going after source! Once in the water he freaked out and swam to shore, so a swim in circles indication not gonna work! I also dont want to deal with gators trying to make him a snack (although at 100lbs he would be a very large mouthful!).
> 
> ...


We had a large BH doing water cadaver for several years. I think the biggest deterent to using them is their sheer size. When the males can clock in at 120-150lbs and the females up there also, plus they are not the most agile of dogs, can be problems when dealing with smaller water craft. One instance was when the hound was hanging over the side indicating and the handler went up to join him and it it was touch and go if they were going to flip the boat over. It was only a save cause the boat driver dove to the opposite gunnel to counter the weight. Lesson learned about weight distribution.

I don't know if your hound will scratch but I've heard that used for an alert in boats. Also reaching over to paw the water. What I have found is that dogs can be pretty inventive with finding a new alert when they can't do "the normal". 

Also you might try doing some agility type training with rocker-type boards to let the dog gain some confidence with alerting on unstable surfaces. You set up some problems where the board is wiggling/rocking/shifting as the dog walks over it. Then set up some stuff where the only area to sit at is the unstable surface. More boat time can also help as the dog gets his 'sea legs'. Good luck. Sounds like you had alot of fun!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

LOL got to thinking most bloodhounds I know have giant bear claws on those toes. I can just see that on a zodiac! 

We almost flipped a jon boat when the motor fouled. The driver and I were in the back unfouling it, and the wind shifted and put the odor coming over the back of the boat. Grim joined both of us hanging off the back of the boat and is bouncing up and down barking. Water started to come over the transom.

Come to think of it that was my drivers very first time in a boat and I think it was her last 

I imagine a big challenge for you will be getting the dog in quickly if it does go in. It does happen. With a rescue one or a jon it is pretty easy to flip a GSD over the gunnels (they will actually hook their back legs over and get themselves in if you push down on their heads) on a carolina skiff (which seems to be the default patrol boat) you can kill the engine and lure them to the step on the back. Not sure what to do on a zodiac but those are normally more in rivers and I would think you would just navigate to the shore hanging onto the collar.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> LOL got to thinking most bloodhounds I know have giant bear claws on those toes. I can just see that on a zodiac!
> 
> *Egads, forgot about the dragon claws....!!! *
> 
> I imagine a big challenge for you will be getting the dog in quickly if it does go in. It does happen. With a rescue one or a jon it is pretty easy to flip a GSD over the gunnels (they will actually hook their back legs over and get themselves in if you push down on their heads) on a carolina skiff (which seems to be the default patrol boat) you can kill the engine and lure them to the step on the back. Not sure what to do on a zodiac but those are normally more in rivers and I would think you would just navigate to the shore hanging onto the collar.


I think if dealing with a heavy dog it would be better to never have to fish it out although having a harness on it would help. But I shudder to think of trying to get back in 100+lbs of ungainly dog. And then there's that weight distribution thing agin. 

I've never made one but it was suggested that you can make a swim step by using a folding lawn chair (the ones with webbing). They put hooks at the back of the chair (where you normally rest your back) and then hung the open chair over the side. The dog stepped up on the seat and then climbed up into the boat. Sounds simple enough and would help some of the larger dogs get back in easier.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

They do make ramps and steps for getting a dog into a boat. I guess I would just come up with a plan and make sure you have a life jacket / harness.

It would not be a big deal - because it does not happen a lot - and you could just drive the dog to shore were it not for fear of gators. 

The problem with life vests is heat and some limit the dog's motion. At least 100lbs is not a big male bloodhound.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Since I work for an s.o I will get to use the dive team's boat most of the time. It's puncture proof! Lol. I will also have plenty of big guys around to pull him into the boat should he go over. He absolutely has to have a life vest on, as I have actually seen him sink without one. So we would have a little leeway there. I will keep him on lead too. As a trailing dog he is used to it, and I know how to hold it without getting in his way. At the end he seemed to use it as an "extra leg" so he could hang completely off the side of the boat without going in.

I hate to give him too many indications to deal with. He is NOT the brightest bulb in the bunch, so if I can make the sit work using Sarah's suggestions I will. When he's not comfortable with a full sit because of the terrain he will get in a position as close to it as possible, so I think it is something that can be worked through.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I would make sure you get him out on a boat when there is a good bit of chop. They learn to relax with it and not fight it. 

The fact that you have a bloodhound indicating and not dragging you to and eating source impresses me!

The dive team here has a nice boat [Rescue One with a jet engine-that thing can fly!] but other places is where we wind up on lake patrol boats. Our team jon boat does not have the power to search anything but a pond area.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Libby has a sit alert on land, in the boat its a tapping with het paw. Greta sits and barks land or boat.
If they go in water, Greta circles and bites the water, Libby swims back to shore and sits. Weird mals.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I would make sure you get him out on a boat when there is a good bit of chop. They learn to relax with it and not fight it.
> 
> The fact that you have a bloodhound indicating and not dragging you to and eating source impresses me!
> 
> The dive team here has a nice boat [Rescue One with a jet engine-that thing can fly!] but other places is where we wind up on lake patrol boats. Our team jon boat does not have the power to search anything but a pond area.


We've kicked the speed up to 50+mph and he loves it, just about takes flight with ears and jaws flapping in the wind. I will make sure to do as you suggest and take him out in some chop at slower speeds to increase his comfort level.

He absolutely loves HR, and early on he would try to stuff the HR in his mouth. He's food reward tho, so he was happy enough to exchange the HR for his treat. Lol. I've got him working off lead too (on land). But he's not a far ranging dog, which is fine since he doesnt have a real active alert.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

mel boschwitz said:


> He absolutely loves HR, and early on he would try to stuff the HR in his mouth. He's food reward tho, so he was happy enough to exchange the HR for his treat. Lol. I've got him working off lead too (on land). But he's not a far ranging dog, which is fine since he doesnt have a real active alert.


A lot of dogs seem to enjoy mouthing it. Haven't had a dog eat any on me yet but picture my hand following it down that dog's throat to get it back. My first dog would fetch it up (retrieve) it to me if he could pick it up or break it loose. I don't know how dogs feel about it but I would have a hard time carrying some of that skanky stuff in *my *mouth. And certainly not for a measly piece of bologna.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I had one eat a jar of dirty dirt. Fortunately that was all it was!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I was at the "Body Farm" in 03 there was a Golden from a California team that made a flying down alert onto a very ripe "victim".


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The FOREST requires the dogs be on a short lead though you can work offlead right up to the fence and that is helpful. What was neat there when I went was all the dogs went to the same spot in the fence and you could see that was an area where water ran off [forest fence is on a steep hill]

Honestly if Texas was not so far they have an entirely different layout. I would love to go to that one. Much more open land - each body has its own small "cage" so the dogs can work offlead the whole time.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> When I was at the "Body Farm" in 03 there was a Golden from a California team that made a flying down alert onto a very ripe "victim".


Praise the dog, and then YUCK!


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Nancy,
Where is the one in Texas?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Texas State - I know they had a seminar ther but gather it was a very closed group. would love to go but a 17 hour drive is a bit much when WCU is only a couple of hours away.

http://www.txstate.edu/anthropology/facts/


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Just some caveats from working water HRD over the years.

- Get away from the scent machine as it tends to promote alerts down wind. Go towards tissue sources with fat such that the dog learns to work the oil slick on the water. The scent machine primarily pumps out blood scent and unless the drowning was due to trauma, there won't be that much blood. Body fat oils abound though.

- One of my pet peeves in water work are the dogs taught to jump into the water to circle over the source. If you are the only dog team working this case, it's not always a big deal, but if other dogs are following you in the boat, then there is high potential that they'll bring in scent on their coats. They then proceed to dump it all over the boat. At one NAPWDA boat test, I have my dog jump into the boat and it starts nosing all the ropes, the depressions, and the puddles. I turned to the evaluator and asked, "previous dogs jump in over the source?" He said yes, so I had my dog cover the boat to dispel residual before we hit the water. In my mind, dogs jumping into the water is simply poor handling.

- Unless your dogs works live as well, there is no reason to have divers in the water. My dogs work only HRD and have never needed the "bob it, bob it, make it look alive" crap. Once my dogs can work six inch buried, then I migrate them to shoreline water work. Once they can do shoreline, we go to water. Unfortunately, a lot of handlers migrate their area search dogs to water work once they become .ummmm.....less fit for land work. I'd rather have a specialist out there that just does HRD, not someone that can't bear to retire their dog yet.

- Don't know about forcing an alert in scent. I always know what each dog's natural indication is and I tend to see this right at the start if they have a good foundation in buried and shoreline work. After that you can cue the trained alert if you want it. My second dog had a very sweet down, but L.E. always preferred the dog that went ballistic barking over the body, barking louder as we got into stronger scent and going docile once we left scent. I could talk to them till I was blue in the face about how the dog that downed had the better nose. They loved the bark. 

Course there is that one expert that has the dog steer the boat with its tail. That one still cracks me up.



Jim Delbridge


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Honestly, I am not at all fond of using the divers and have not been using it with Beau and he is doing well. No scent pump either. 

He has not worked any actual water searches yet though and I feel a need to get more "fresh" material for training. That could be where a diver would come in handy but none of the ones here have a rebreather and mainly you are getting the exhaled gasses and neoprene odors since they are all covered up with a wet suit .......

I feel requiring him to down on the bow until he hits scent though has really been good. Makes reading him much easier--and after all that stuff about *teaching* the dog to move on the boat, he does it naturally anyway. Once I see the tip of his tail start flicking, I let him get up.

After dealing with Grim who barked barked barked and frothed at the mouth until we hit odor, it is a relief. That said-Grim had several real life finds and was spot on but it was exasperating and I was always worried about heat stroke. Not to mention the fact that his barks drew a lot of attention. He was a handler soft dog too and correcting him would shut him down. Beau could take a 2x4 over his head and just get fiestier.

I was reading and calling it right before Beau's test but had not had time to figure out the "trained indication" (one day on the water).......but he got so frustrated on our test because I took a few passes back and forth to "pinpoint" that he just offered a very obvious sit, and gave me this glare - I am sure most of you know what I mean - so I said "I'll take that"-- he was dead on.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Yea was working the youngster, Thorpe, on a tricky problem in 35 mph winds. We were about 80 feet away when he located it and gives me "the look." I ignored him so he walked around the source about ten feet in every direction then came back to it and decided to give me the trained alert. I tend to teach handlers that in the dog's mind, I think the "look" is the dog thinking through the process without actually doing it. For me this means I have to focus more on the trained alert to make it a subconscious act where the dog performs it without thinking about it.

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I typically get "the look" after the trained indication. Of course I have heard that can be a herding dog thing.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Lol, Libby gives the look, and back and forth from source to me super fast. It's hilarious.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Just some caveats from working water HRD over the years.
> 
> 
> - One of my pet peeves in water work are the dogs taught to jump into the water to circle over the source. If you are the only dog team working this case, it's not always a big deal, but if other dogs are following you in the boat, then there is high potential that they'll bring in scent on their coats.
> ...


*Thanks for the post, Jim. Lots of good points.*


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