# Are KNPV handlers stupid ?



## Marcel Winter

Most of the good studs and bloodlines are sold to other countries most
of this dogs are in the USA, in Holland most of the proven studs
are sold. I don,t like this personal to see ,nowadays KNPV is more business
I think about a few years there are not much real quality dogs with important proven bloodlines in Holland
most of them are all sold to the USA. Very sad devolopment IMO
American business people with no any KNPV backgound make all the BIG bucks
](*,)


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## Matt Vandart

Marcel Winter said:


> Most of the good studs and bloodlines are sold to other countries most
> of this dogs are in the USA, in Holland most of the proven studs
> are sold. I don,t like this personal to see ,nowadays KNPV is more business
> I think about a few years there are not much real quality dogs with important proven bloodlines in Holland
> most of them are all sold to the USA. Very sad devolopment IMO
> American business people with no any KNPV backgound make all the BIG bucks
> ](*,)


Interesting thread , I hope it takes off


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## Mike Di Rago

Another interesting question as a followup to yours,might be, what happens to those dogs once imported.How many of their progeny end up in working,or sport homes and how many end up as pets?
If they are sold to breeders with a plan to strenghten their own lines,I don't see a problem.If they are bought with the sole idea of making money,I think that is a shame and a loss.But money rules!
Mike


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## Gus Pineda

Mike Di Rago said:


> Another interesting question as a followup to yours,might be, what happens to those dogs once imported.How many of their progeny end up in working,or sport homes and how many end up as pets?
> If they are sold to breeders with a plan to strenghten their own lines,I don't see a problem.If they are bought with the sole idea of making money,I think that is a shame and a loss.But money rules!
> Mike


I was thinking the same thing. What happens to them in the US?


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## Gerald Guay

If properly used they could strengthen bloodlines on this continent however there is more to breeding then just throwing 2 good dogs together. What does not come with those dogs is the knowledge that made they what they are.

GG


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## Christopher Jones

Alot of the good KNPV dogs have always been sold outside Holland. Im not sure if its any worse than before? There are some people that didnt sell their dogs out of Holland. Wibo, Tommy, Berry 2, Jary, Biko, Castor, Boris, Rico, Danko, Big Roy etc stayed there. You also have had super dogs sold along time ago. Most of Hans Pegges old dogs were sold to the US such as Bono, Marco, Rocky etc. 
And the KNPV is different to everything else because its a police dog factory. The goal is to train and title dogs to PH1 and then they are sold into police or military. 
My bigger issue is that the US has been getting so many quality dogs from Europe, for so many years and yet they still arent capable to breed their own bloodlines. Ivan B has shown that you can build up a kennel to where a US breeders kennel name is thought of just as highly than a European one.


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## Kevin Cyr

Christopher Jones said:


> Alot of the good KNPV dogs have always been sold outside Holland. Im not sure if its any worse than before? There are some people that didnt sell their dogs out of Holland. Wibo, Tommy, Berry 2, Jary, Biko, Castor, Boris, Rico, Danko, Big Roy etc stayed there. You also have had super dogs sold along time ago. Most of Hans Pegges old dogs were sold to the US such as Bono, Marco, Rocky etc.
> And the KNPV is different to everything else because its a police dog factory. The goal is to train and title dogs to PH1 and then they are sold into police or military.
> My bigger issue is that the US has been getting so many quality dogs from Europe, for so many years and yet they still arent capable to breed their own bloodlines. Ivan B has shown that you can build up a kennel to where a US breeders kennel name is thought of just as highly than a European one.


 
That's cause most of the dogs are bought by vendors with the intent to sell to a police department or military for work, not breeding.


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## Marcel Winter

What I mean the foundation from te proven bloodlines 
that is very important to get good
quality litters. Ivo Iedema,Arko Kikkert,Arco Roosen,Rudie from 
Hans Pegge was a very quality dog,Carlos Vos, Jochie ,
Ronnie Henk Verbeek,Tygo and there many more strong quality dogs .
At this moment Berrie II, Boris Doeze and now Big Roy are too much used as a stud IMO we get very small bloodlines about a few years 
I hope I,m wrong.


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## Michael Murphy

how good is tygo (assuming carlos son) as a producer? his mentioned as a great *sport* dog in the discription?


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## Michael Murphy

and also with big roy, he seems to slow down a lot before engaging the decoy unlike most of the other hard hitting flying knpv dogs i usually see


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## Michael Murphy

and berry 2 his getting a lot of breedings , i can see he produces high drive dogs just like the dogs line bred on duco seegers or out of django. what differences have you noticed from the berry dogs vs the django/duco dogs?


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> and also with big roy, he seems to slow down a lot before engaging the decoy unlike most of the other hard hitting flying knpv dogs i usually see


Go away, Michael..First answer questions that have been asked on other topics before asking more stupid questions.


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## Sarah Platts

Marcel Winter said:


> What I mean the foundation from te proven bloodlines
> that is very important to get good
> quality litters. Ivo Iedema,Arko Kikkert,Arco Roosen,Rudie from
> Hans Pegge was a very quality dog,Carlos Vos, Jochie ,
> Ronnie Henk Verbeek,Tygo and there many more strong quality dogs .
> At this moment Berrie II, Boris Doeze and now Big Roy are too much used as a stud IMO we get very small bloodlines about a few years
> I hope I,m wrong.


Does anyone recognize that there is another side to this equation? Unless you have a nice capable bitch line then having a "name" stud might not mean much. How about giving equal time to the bitches that contribute the other half of the genetics?


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## Marcel Winter

Sarah Platts said:


> Does anyone recognize that there is another side to this equation? Unless you have a nice capable bitch line then having a "name" stud might not mean much. How about giving equal time to the bitches that contribute the other half of the genetics?


Yes that is very true females are even or more important but the influence
of the male number of breeding litters is higher as the female.

Example a good female Goya van Hoek 3 litters 

Duco II between 100-200 litters . Berrie II more than 300 litters


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## Ellen Piepers

Michael Murphy said:


> and berry 2 his getting a lot of breedings , i can see he produces high drive dogs just like the dogs line bred on duco seegers or out of django. what differences have you noticed from the berry dogs vs the django/duco dogs?


I don't think this is related to the issue that Marcel tries to address. If I'm not mistaken, he is implying that (regardless of the differences between these dogs) the effect of the number of dogs exported combined with the trend to only use a couple of popular sires, the genetic base from which to choose from is becoming smaller and smaller. This is bound to have a long term impact.


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## Michael Murphy

what about nero II celik's home is going to town with breeding that dog, checked out her pedigree , line breeding on rambo through rudo vulpen with some breston massop in their too. any opinions on this dog?
looks like a pedigree van leeuwen would like
i would buy some semen if i had the money , chris , any room in the semen bank of yours? :razz:


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## Marcel Winter

Ellen Piepers said:


> I don't think this is related to the issue that Marcel tries to address. If I'm not mistaken, he is implying that (regardless of the differences between these dogs) the effect of the number of dogs exported combined with the trend to only use a couple of popular sires, the genetic base from which to choose from is becoming smaller and smaller. This is bound to have a long term impact.



Thank you Ellen exactly;-)


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## Sarah Platts

Marcel Winter said:


> Yes that is very true females are even or more important but the influence
> of the male number of breeding litters is higher as the female.
> 
> Example a good female Goya van Hoek 3 litters
> 
> Duco II between 100-200 litters . Berrie II more than 300 litters


True, the male has numbers on their side but out of those hundreds of litters (out of those thousands of pups) actually went on to be performers? And where those performers out of good bitch lines or just run-of-the-mill, dime-a-dozen females?


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## Marcel Winter

Michael Murphy said:


> what about nero II celik's home is going to town with breeding that dog, checked out her pedigree , line breeding on rambo through rudo vulpen with some breston massop in their too. any opinions on this dog?
> looks like a pedigree van leeuwen would like
> i would buy some semen if i had the money , chris , any room in the semen bank of yours? :razz:


Nero II is the father from my dog the Rudo and Rambo line is one of the
best and proven bloodlines in KNPV ,in future Celiks home will use in
more linebreeding on Rudo and Rambo .

Lucky this dogs has never been sold


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## Sarah Platts

Alice Bezemer said:


> Go away, Michael..First answer questions that have been asked on other topics before asking more stupid questions.


Alice,
I don't think he's capable of it. He's all flash and no pan and probably is a long term resident of a Hoiday Inn Express.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Ah8WTL2i8

:mrgreen:


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## Marcel Winter

Sarah Platts said:


> True, the male has numbers on their side but out of those hundreds of litters (out of those thousands of pups) actually went on to be performers? And where those performers out of good bitch lines or just run-of-the-mill, dime-a-dozen females?


In Holland the litters this moment are maybe more quantity than quality time will talk.


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## Sarah Platts

The thing is why not sell a stud that you’ve gotten all the pups out of that you want? Why would you want to let any one stud (or closely related studs) grab too much of a genetic line? Isn’t that what the GSD folks did with their program? Also studies are showing that the older the ages of the male and female the negative impact on the progeny due to age-related declines in the quality of sperm ( due to DNA strand breaks and chromatin changes) and eggs (chromosomal damage or low energy levels).
The chances of getting the best get of a stud or dam occurs during their earlier versus later years. So instead of keeping them past their middle age, it appears that you are better off getting the cream of the crop – so to speak – and selling them once they are past their youthful prime. You may think of it as a slow bleed but doing this does allow some of the better genetics to trickle out to areas that lack the strong genetic base to build up from.


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## Kevin Cyr

Michael Murphy said:


> how good is tygo (assuming carlos son) as a producer? his mentioned as a great *sport* dog in the discription?


tygo is dead


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## Haz Othman

Tygo was here in Ontario. I dont know what they did with him while he was here, doesnt seem like much.


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## jack van strien

Maybe part of the problem is some people only want dogs from big names(murphy).
There are a lot of good quality dogs that can do the work but because their parents (or handlers) are not well known a lot of people don't go for them.
Money is a big factor and some bloodlines sell themselves,unfortunately.
I wonder how a lot of handlers would do with a good pup but with the parents unknown?
I can understand why dogs are being sold,big business!
Marcel maybe you should take a few minutes and write down all the money you have spend on your dogs,sure it is a hobby but for some people a really expensive one.
If your dog is being used as a stud at 300 euros each time,say 250 times.
Tax free?
I think just because a lot of dogs are being sold to the USA,the Dutch are starting to use more big names.
It is called marketing and it is working so far.


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## Ellen Piepers

jack van strien said:


> I think just because a lot of dogs are being sold to the USA,the Dutch are starting to use more big names.
> It is called marketing and it is working so far.


It is working for attracting buyers and selling dogs, but it will have an effect on the ling run on the population here locally.


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## Marcel Winter

Jack I agree with you this days KNPV is a lot of marketing and hyping
some dogs. Personal I don,t care of the big names , there are also some people in the KNPV who have good quality proven dogs end are more 
anonymous they don,t need the social media for hyping I prefer those handlers/breeders, at this moment KNPV looks more like a business too commercial
and we all know what happens with the quality from the dogs in the long
term.


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## Marcel Winter

Mike Di Rago said:


> Another interesting question as a followup to yours,might be, what happens to those dogs once imported.How many of their progeny end up in working,or sport homes and how many end up as pets?
> If they are sold to breeders with a plan to strenghten their own lines,I don't see a problem.If they are bought with the sole idea of making money,I think that is a shame and a loss.But money rules!
> Mike


 In the USA and other countrys handlers, breeders buying the best KNPV dogs
and bloodlines for many years but have they got good trainers, and can
they breeding there own quality dog?, thats an other discussion.
For many dogs its a waste they are sold to them IMO.


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## Mike Di Rago

Marcel,
There are good trainors and good handlers in most countries. I have yet to hear of one country that has a monopoly on good trainers and handlers!The question I find important is to the breeders.Do they have a plan on short term and on medium term.If they buy a dog (stud) do they have a plan for their lines or is it just hype to sell pups?If they have a plan to improve what they are already producing,then I think it is not a waste,as you say.If it is to continue improving the working aptitudes of the breed,it is not a waste.And this is valid for all countries.
Mike


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## Marcel Winter

I have no problem if people are buying some quality dogs,
most of KNPV dogs are going to LE and military all over the world thats
why they are breeding for but a lot of good quality KNPV dogs are only 
using as a commercial stud , example have the USA improving the KNPV dogs NO they fishing the good dogs and bloodlines out of Holland for many many years

You can buy a certified KNPV dog from Holland between 3-5000 euro 
I have seen prices to sale the same dogs in the USA for 20.000 and more this have nothing to with improving the breed its business.
Same some breeders selling KNPV puppies for 1500 dollar and more


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## Christopher Jones

Marcel Winter said:


> In the USA and other countrys handlers, breeders buying the best KNPV dogs
> and bloodlines for many years but have they got good trainers, and can
> they breeding there own quality dog?, thats an other discussion.
> For many dogs its a waste they are sold to them IMO.


It is sad to see alot of super dogs get sold to the US and then dissappear, normally sold from one person to the next, until the dog dies. At the end of his life the dog was bred to a number of poor females, produced nothing of note and his line ceases to exist. 
Now im sure that this happens the world over, but as the US buys most of the good dogs its the best example to use.
But hey, no one is forcing the Dutch to sell off their top dogs. You dont see the French selling their best Ring dogs off, nor the NVBK selling their best Ring dogs off.


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## Marcel Winter

Christopher Jones said:


> It is sad to see alot of super dogs get sold to the US and then dissappear, normally sold from one person to the next, until the dog dies. At the end of his life the dog was bred to a number of poor females, produced nothing of note and his line ceases to exist.
> Now im sure that this happens the world over, but as the US buys most of the good dogs its the best example to use.
> But hey, no one is forcing the Dutch to sell off their top dogs. You dont see the French selling their best Ring dogs off, nor the NVBK selling their best Ring dogs off.


I don,t say that someone forcing the Dutch handlers I noticed only
the current situation .

Original most of the KNPV dogs are coming from the NVBK/ ringsport malinois
and have the Dutch handlers and breeders an improving impact on the breed I think so.


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## jack van strien

Yes some top dogs are being sold but not after the dogs have been used as stud in Holland.
Another thing is scores,still too many people think top scores mean a top dog.
I remember many years ago i first saw a KNPV dog who had received his ph 1 met lof and also full points.
It was in Assen during the motorcycle grand prix and there were a whole lot of people and their dogs for security at night.( a great way to get a live bite at that time) 
We had to pass in between two buses ,all of the dogs did except the perfect score dog.He had to be pulled along by his handler,so much for scores.


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## Alex Scott

If I am understanding this thread correctly, exporting dogs to the United States has been flagged as a problem. Nearly all super dogs get sold to the US and it is sad that nothing noteworthy is done with them once they arrive. But why is this is a 'problem? 

Dogs are property with legal conditions of ownership (food, water, shelter etc.) but they can be bought, sold and disposed of like any other item. The handlers in the Netherlands need to eat to. 

Dogs are improving all the time, go back and watch the tape from the 80s and 90s, the dogs and training is a whole lot better than it used to be. The improvements are be seen quickly. Go watch the BSP from 2000 when Ernst won and tell me they dogs used to be better...

In my mind, if the trainers in Holland are selling the dogs after the have bred to them there is no issue as the improvement will be carried in the progeny. If they haven't bred to the dog, well obviously there is a reason and it probably should be moved out of the kennel to maybe... the US.


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## Zakia Days

Alice Bezemer said:


> Go away, Michael..First answer questions that have been asked on other topics before asking more stupid questions.


LOLOL! Hilarious Alice. Lost a bit of beer to that one!


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## Zakia Days

Michael Murphy said:


> and also with big roy, he seems to slow down a lot before engaging the decoy unlike most of the other hard hitting flying knpv dogs i usually see


He better slow down on entry. He's freaking 90+ lbs! Unless he wants to fk himself up in the process. Sheesh!


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## Alice Bezemer

Zakia Days said:


> He better slow down on entry. He's freaking 90+ lbs! Unless he wants to fk himself up in the process. Sheesh!


Big Roy is a large dog with a lot of height and weight to him... What Michael doesn't seem to grasp is that the larger the dog is the slower he will become. It has nothing to do with quality of the dog and everything with size. Then again, there's a whole list of things that Michael doesn't seem to grasp :-| This is just a new one to add to his ever growing list :lol:


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## Marcel Winter

Alex Scott said:


> If I am understanding this thread correctly, exporting dogs to the United States has been flagged as a problem. Nearly all super dogs get sold to the US and it is sad that nothing noteworthy is done with them once they arrive. But why is this is a 'problem?
> 
> Dogs are property with legal conditions of ownership (food, water, shelter etc.) but they can be bought, sold and disposed of like any other item. The handlers in the Netherlands need to eat to.
> 
> Dogs are improving all the time, go back and watch the tape from the 80s and 90s, the dogs and training is a whole lot better than it used to be. The improvements are be seen quickly. Go watch the BSP from 2000 when Ernst won and tell me they dogs used to be better...
> 
> In my mind, if the trainers in Holland are selling the dogs after the have bred to them there is no issue as the improvement will be carried in the progeny. If they haven't bred to the dog, well obviously there is a reason and it probably should be moved out of the kennel to maybe... the US.


No you don,t understand a lot of good dogs are being sold directly after
the trial becasse the handlers get a BIG offfer for the the top dogs a lot of this dogs have never be using as a stud in Holland, they gonna be used
as a stud in the US and other countries its only a money question.
The basisc from many good KNPV dogs are going to the good lines from the 70 ,80 s, and 90 ,s at that time KNPV was not (commercial)as today the foundation was very good because a lot of this studs never leave Holland they make a lot of good litters.

The old and more experience people saying the KNPV dogs in the earlier days are better I don,t now I,m not
that old


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## Marcel Winter

jack van strien said:


> Yes some top dogs are being sold but not after the dogs have been used as stud in Holland.
> Another thing is scores,still too many people think top scores mean a top dog.
> I remember many years ago i first saw a KNPV dog who had received his ph 1 met lof and also full points.
> It was in Assen during the motorcycle grand prix and there were a whole lot of people and their dogs for security at night.( a great way to get a live bite at that time)
> We had to pass in between two buses ,all of the dogs did except the perfect score dog.He had to be pulled along by his handler,so much for scores.


 Yes and too may people looking to the famous handlers in Eindhoven
the Dutch Championship you see many time the same handlers that
has a reason, I don,t think the best police dogs are in Eindhoven every year
that are only the 440 point dogs , there are a few good handlers who
can make this result evey year but you also need a specific type
of dog IMO. But its a honor to be there and its not easy all the respect.


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## Christopher Jones

Marcel Winter said:


> No you don,t understand a lot of good dogs are being sold directly after
> the trial becasse the handlers get a BIG offfer for the the top dogs a lot of this dogs have never be using as a stud in Holland, they gonna be used
> as a stud in the US and other countries its only a money question.
> The basisc from many good KNPV dogs are going to the good lines from the 70 ,80 s, and 90 ,s at that time KNPV was not (commercial)as today the foundation was very good because a lot of this studs never leave Holland they make a lot of good litters.
> 
> The old and more experience people saying the KNPV dogs in the earlier days are better I don,t now I,m not
> that old


There are the big name handlers in Holland whos dogs always get bred to in big numbers. Many of the best dogs get very few, or no litters due to the fact their handlers are unknown or unable to promote their dogs, and so yes they get sold without any impact on the bloodlines. 
There is also some crazy money that is thrown around for a good dog. A friend had a 10 month old dog that was crazy good for his age. He was offered 6,000 Euro for him on the spot by some people outside Holland and so he took it. Cant blame him really.


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## Alex Scott

Marcel Winter said:


> No you don,t understand a lot of good dogs are being sold directly after
> the trial becasse the handlers get a BIG offfer for the the top dogs a lot of this dogs have never be using as a stud in Holland, they gonna be used
> as a stud in the US and other countries its only a money question.
> The basisc from many good KNPV dogs are going to the good lines from the 70 ,80 s, and 90 ,s at that time KNPV was not (commercial)as today the foundation was very good because a lot of this studs never leave Holland they make a lot of good litters.
> 
> The old and more experience people saying the KNPV dogs in the earlier days are better I don,t now I,m not
> that old


So, the dogs are being sold before the are available for stud in Holland? What is the going rate for a stud fee? I know that Dutch Shepherds are available quite a bit cheaper without x ray and pedigree requirements. Maybe, the issue is that the dogs and stud fees are too cheap in Holland to be compete with the international market.


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## Marcel Winter

Alex Scott said:


> So, the dogs are being sold before the are available for stud in Holland? What is the going rate for a stud fee? I know that Dutch Shepherds are available quite a bit cheaper without x ray and pedigree requirements. Maybe, the issue is that the dogs and stud fees are too cheap in Holland to be compete with the international market.



Most of KNPV the dogs are X rayed ellbows ,hips,back.

Most of the very good dogs are sold before the trial.

Stud fees between 200 end 300 euro depends the owners for
some handlers its only a hobby.


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## Joby Becker

Alex Scott said:


> So, the dogs are being sold before the are available for stud in Holland? What is the going rate for a stud fee? I know that Dutch Shepherds are available quite a bit cheaper without x ray and pedigree requirements. Maybe, the issue is that the dogs and stud fees are too cheap in Holland to be compete with the international market.


no one is buying adult dogs without xrays, unless they are a moron.


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## Marcel Winter

www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/new-knpv-stud-u-s-jochie-21167/


I,m curious how he inhired and if he produces as strong as himself
are there handlers who can handle this type of dog?


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## Khoi Pham

I don't know about Jochie because I have never seen him work except in video but we have one of his offspring in our club and he is mentally the strongest dog in our club. This is video of him https://vimeo.com/41750030 when he was a pup and he just got his PSA 1 a couple of months ago.


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## Marcel Winter

Khoi Pham said:


> I don't know about Jochie because I have never seen him work except in video but we have one of his offspring in our club and he is mentally the strongest dog in our club. This is video of him https://vimeo.com/41750030 when he was a pup and he just got his PSA 1 a couple of months ago.



Thank you Khoi looks very promising good drives and nerves what I
can see on the video. what was is name of the female Jochie litter ?


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## Khoi Pham

Sora is the bitch.


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## Mike Di Rago

Very nice work handling the decoy work with this pup!
Mike


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## Christopher Jones

Khoi Pham said:


> I don't know about Jochie because I have never seen him work except in video but we have one of his offspring in our club and he is mentally the strongest dog in our club. This is video of him https://vimeo.com/41750030 when he was a pup and he just got his PSA 1 a couple of months ago.


Nice pup. Got any video of him older?


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## Khoi Pham

This is last year when he was going for his PDC, it is beginning level of PSA, kind of like a FR Brevet. https://vimeo.com/76991554 long video you have to fast forward to the middle that is when bite works begin.


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## Khoi Pham

Thanks Mile, he is not very big but he got heart and hit you like a bullet.


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## Marcel Winter

Khoi Pham said:


> Thanks Mile, he is not very big but he got heart and hit you like a bullet.



Sora is te litter out of Mosley X Corrie some pitbull in his blood
thats why is not very big.

Mosley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7B8Um_9rdk


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## Christopher Jones

Marcel Winter said:


> The old and more experience people saying the KNPV dogs in the earlier days are better I don,t now I,m not
> that old


When I have spoken to KNPV people I know they tend to think the dogs are better today than in the early days. They tend to say that you get alot more consistancy of good character and working abilites now than ever before, but that maybe in the old days they did get a few more super crazy ones than nowdays, but the issue was yes, you got two super hard and crazy pups in the litter but pups number 3 to 10 were not as good and they quality fell away really sharply. Now from good litters you can pick a pup based on colour or size and still not really miss out on a good pup.

Would be interested to see if Dick etc think the same or have seen it differently. Obviously people who live in different parts of Holland and are using different bloodlines might get different results.


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## Marcel Winter

Christopher Jones said:


> When I have spoken to KNPV people I know they tend to think the dogs are better today than in the early days. They tend to say that you get alot more consistancy of good character and working abilites now than ever before, but that maybe in the old days they did get a few more super crazy ones than nowdays, but the issue was yes, you got two super hard and crazy pups in the litter but pups number 3 to 10 were not as good and they quality fell away really sharply. Now from good litters you can pick a pup based on colour or size and still not really miss out on a good pup.
> 
> Would be interested to see if Dick etc think the same or have seen it differently. Obviously people who live in different parts of Holland and are using different bloodlines might get different results.



What I can see handlers wash out this days al lot of young dogs in KNPV!!
I don,t agree you can pick up a good pup so easy this days . one of the points they put a lot of popular studs on every female thats why there
is a lot of trash. Also there are some good quality litters but you have to study and know the bloodlines and have some patient.( lucky there are some wellknown and wise breeders they know what they doing)


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## Marcel Winter

Don,t forget also a lot of good dogs and bloodlines are sold

I noticed in the earlier days there are many more KNPV females certified
than today than you have also a better picture from the female on the field IMO.


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## Khoi Pham

Marcel Winter said:


> Sora is te litter out of Mosley X Corrie some pitbull in his blood
> thats why is not very big.
> 
> Mosley:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7B8Um_9rdk


Yeah his body and hair feels just like a pit.


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## Matt Vandart

Zakia Days said:


> He better slow down on entry. He's freaking 90+ lbs! Unless he wants to fk himself up in the process. Sheesh!


Was gonna say this but then I just couldn't be ****ed, no point anymore I feel


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## Matt Vandart

Marcel Winter said:


> Sora is te litter out of Mosley X Corrie some pitbull in his blood
> thats why is not very big.
> 
> Mosley:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7B8Um_9rdk


some pitbull? lol

Nice, I like him


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## Sander Meegdes

I'm not 100% agreed with Marcel about breeding,

Now a days is bred better than in the old days, In the old days
you placed two dogs on eachoter who were working good without the possibility with checking the complete bloodline, today you have internet and alot of other options to check the full bloodline of the dogs.
With the possibility to check 3/4 generations back. So there is bred with brains. in the old days people bred also with brains but in these days you can check 3/4 generations back in 30 minutes. 
The KNPV is a high demanding sport for dog and handler so you have always dogs who aren't suitable for it, That's the reality.

Also about training, Now a days people train and adapt to what his specific dog needs with better results in the final examination. The KNPV
is in the decenia more stricter so handlers need to adapt to this situation.
So how we build up dogs is done with more brains and by handlers another traithcraft is used. the final conclusion is that you have dogs that are better, stable, less rough in the program and in the end a better final result. 

I got a 7 month old dog Berry 2 x Hella de perle tourbiere 
Wouldn't asked for more, does everything i want.

Any questions send me a PM.


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## Marcel Winter

Sander Meegdes said:


> I'm not 100% agreed with Marcel about breeding,
> 
> Now a days is bred better than in the old days, In the old days
> you placed two dogs on eachoter who were working good without the possibility with checking the complete bloodline, today you have internet and alot of other options to check the full bloodline of the dogs.
> With the possibility to check 3/4 generations back. So there is bred with brains. in the old days people bred also with brains but in these days you can check 3/4 generations back in 30 minutes.
> The KNPV is a high demanding sport for dog and handler so you have always dogs who aren't suitable for it, That's the reality.
> 
> Also about training, Now a days people train and adapt to what his specific dog needs with better results in the final examination. The KNPV
> is in the decenia more stricter so handlers need to adapt to this situation.
> So how we build up dogs is done with more brains and by handlers another traithcraft is used. the final conclusion is that you have dogs that are better, stable, less rough in the program and in the end a better final result.
> 
> I got a 7 month old dog Berry 2 x Hella de perle tourbiere
> Wouldn't asked for more, does everything i want.
> 
> Any questions send me a PM.



It,s the opinion form older and experienced people I have spoken Sander. this days you don,t see the more difficult to train and extreme 
hard dogs on the field ( there are exceptions)its more sport and the training methods is also changed maybe you are right Sander I,m not that old

The dogs are changed and maybe the handlers are changed the police/ LE /Military ask
this days very social dogs with a lot of ball drives !!!

All the best Sander with the youngster Berry II


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## Timothy Saunders

Mr Winter, do you think that the good breeders are selling their proven studs before they find a new one?


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## Marcel Winter

Timothy Saunders said:


> Mr Winter, do you think that the good breeders are selling their proven studs before they find a new one?


KNPV people do not all handlers are also breeders in KNPV .......money talks

Also I know some ( a few) people who never sold there quality studs


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