# Minimum age?



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Hi,
Didn't know where to start this topic, so hope it's okay here ..

I was wondering : what do you think is the minimum age to see if a puppy (young dog) has the qualities to make it as a good pers. protection dog, and suited for reality-training?
Do you think there is a difference between a malinois/dutch shep and a gsd when answering this question? 

Thanks! Jo


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

This is a very interesting question in my opinion. I think you can see at a very young age if a pupy will some day be able to do real world scenario protection stuff. I would think that a puppy with solid nerves, decent prey and sure in different environments would have a good shot at making the grade, but its still a crapshoot with a puppy.

As far as the difference between mals/dutchies and gsds From the few numbers I have seen it seems to me that gsd mature much slower than mals and therefore maybe you could get a more accurate evaluation earlier on.

Very interested to see what others will think.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanks for your reply Greg & good to hear you share somewhat the same opinion. You indeed have to be lucky with a 8weeks old puppy, despite good observations, etc etc etc.. (I'm talking real world, protection).

As for the GSD vs. Mals/Dutchies, I can only say my malinois is a very mature acting dog at 12 months, my Gsd male .. well he's still a child at 2.5  ; so i think it's harder to judge a f.e. 6mnths old German than a Mal?

Thanks, Jo


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I have heard complaints from people saying "dutch dogs mature too slowly for my tastes". But every GSD I see at 12 months old is still a giagantic puppy, whereas my "dutch dog" was working like an adult at 10 months old!? Her mental state was not ready for serious work like a mature dog, but her mentality about the work was very intense and focused at an age where GSD pups seem to still be tripping over grass trying to chase butterflies and flop around with a puppy rag.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Have no experiences with Dutchies Mike, but as said above, totally agree with you re. Germans.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Dutchies and Mals are about the same  More about the difference in lines than the breed itself, since they're all crossed with mal's anyway.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I think it depends on what the dog has as for as genetis. I've seen some GSD that mature faster than others and I'm sure it's the same with the Mals. I've seen more mature Gsd at the same age as Mals. This is of course not always the case. I think genetics is the big player in this maturing thing and really not the breed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I was wondering : what do you think is the minimum age to see if a puppy (young dog) has the qualities to make it as a good pers. protection dog, and suited for reality-training?

I took this as what kind of things would you see in a pup, not so much maturation rates.

I have seen pups that when you play tug on a line, they grab with thier legs, focusing on you, or do not pay attention to the rag/tug at all but focus on you as good potential candidates for a dopg that is civil. Then there is the puppy that grab you as opposed to the tug when you are playing in the yard.

There are traits that you can see when they are small, but sometimes they get extinguished with all the socializing, and repetitive work. Sometimes they show up later in conflict with what the dog would like to do at a given point, and what he has been conditioned to do.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanks Jeff, some very interesting 'tests' I didn't know about.
I'll probably go and see a puppy in about 3 weeks, so any other good small 'tests' from you or the others please?

j


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have only seen this twice but when you roll them on their back, some of the nastiest males I have ever had reacted like this. 

I put them on their back, and they were like....ok, rub my belly time?? Then as time went on and they realized I was holding them there, at first they struggled, but then they were trying to bite me, and when the test was over and I let them up, they went after me.

I have seen pups do peices of this, but the initial response was not to struggle. The pups that struggled right away did not go after me in the end either. I did this and other tests on my pups back in the day. I was raising Rotts.

I am not sure if it would translate to a mal or gsd, but my bet is that it would.

When the two that I described matured, They were stable dogs, but not for the faint of heart. They also had this habit of not going for the sleeve. Both of them figured out that the sleeve was not the place to bite, as it had no effect. ( I hate that) AND, you were protected by these dogs a bit too much. No hugging or close contact without giving them a command not to bite.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To further what Jeff said, the pups that react immediately when you put them on their backs often are doing it in a panic mode.


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