# How does fire affect human scent?



## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Can human scent withstand fire? Have you had experience with dog(s) finding clothing/articles that are charred or partially burned? If you have, would you share your experience of what you know/have observed? If you know of any science facts/theories relevant to my question, would you also share that? Thanks. NB: This is not in the context of arson dogs, but for wilderness SAR or trailing.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

It doesn't affect it much. There's a party trick that usually pops up at trailing dog seminars where the runner wipes his forehead with a tissue and then burn the tissue to ashes. The dog is scented on the ashes. I've never seen a dog not able to work the trail.

I worked a case one time where we used scent articles from 2 different victims and the dogs trailed onto the fire grounds and burned out building and indicated where the body of victim that related with the scent article had been recovered from.

The FBI has done some experimentation with pipe bombs. They made the bombs and then blew them up. On some they gathered up the fragments and then dumped them into a fire and burned them some more. They then used set up trails and the dogs were scented on either the merely exploded fragments or the exploded and burned fragments. The dogs didn't really have any issues taking the trail and locating the subjects and there was a high percentage of the dogs being able to complete the task. This is the link to the what they did.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/for.../fsc/oct2004/research/2004_10_research03.htm/

I worked a multistory building fire. The building was apartments over commercial space. The bldg. was abandoned but there was a thought that some homeless folks may have been caught in the fire. The firemen had started going through the debris by hand checking it for HR and then moving it across the fire ground to the "clean" side. Eventually someone figured out a dog could clear the area faster. I worked both my dogs and got alerts on water pooling by ground floor door and up the adjacent wall. When the dogs worked up the steps and I got alerts up the semi collapsed roof and indications on the landing at the head of the stairs. Due to the extensive floor damage there was the question that the bones may have dropped down and were under the collapsed floor or the body was under the collapsed roof debris.
The firemen continued taking the building totally down. They didn't find any body. When I ran the dogs again they started from where the landing would have been and trailed it (nose down and tracking) across the fire ground and located it in the clean pile and again indicated. 
Later investigation with the property manager uncovered that a death had occurred approx. 3 years prior when the building was still occupied. According to the property manager, the woman's bed - where she had suffered a fatal heart attack - had been located on the landing at the top of the stairs. The manager said the body had laid in the bed "a short time" until rescue arrived and took her away. The bed and mattress were never replaced and in that area there was the springs remaining from the fire consumed mattress.

At a training workshop, I had the opportunity to train on a partially charred remains. The dog didn't have an issue working to and locating the area but tended to keep working in a circle around the site. Eventually, I detailed down and the dog located and indicated. I was told this was a common occurrence for dogs working this type of aid for the first time.

So the long story, short is that Yes, human scent does survive fires and it can handle a lot of physical and thermal stress and survive just fine.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Meg,

If you are dealing with a specific issue or question you can always send me a PM.


----------



## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

No, it was a learning question based on observing my dog this past week. Your link and story were helpful. I thought maybe heat would change the chemistry. 
Dogs never cease to amaze me.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Obviously moving over to HR instead of live: We regularly train with human vs animal cremains taking great care to also have other distracters (same containers handled same way). 

Have not worked an actual fire but have trained on these and on charred human remains .. as well as watching your dog totally ignore a freshly seared cut of animal meat (distracter) while it is working.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I worked fires in so called abandoned building that were often shelter for homeless.

It was a matter of economics to find any victims instead of time and man power spent on just digging through the rubble.

It can be a very different environment. The water from the fire hoses will often wash a lot of scent in the lower parts of the buildings where no victims are found.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> No, it was a learning question based on observing my dog this past week. Your link and story were helpful. I thought maybe heat would change the chemistry.
> Dogs never cease to amaze me.


What was the circumstances with this past week?


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Not sure if I can successfully draw a parallel here but, my EDD could find source in a post blast incident. Now, burning human odor would be harder to detect than locating post blast explosive materials I would think. Much like a fired round of ammunition there is always residue of unburned explosive material just as there is unburned gunpowder in fired ammunition. It's the same with arson dogs. Finding completely burned articles that contained human odor is amazing.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dvsUmU3syQ

Good episodes to watch...........


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Harry! 

Looks like a good series..........other then Victoria S being in it. She doesn't know dog training from feeding pigeons. :-o 8-[ :-#:-$ :twisted:


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Even if you don't like VS, watch episodes 4 and 5. You get a chance to see different people trying to present the same search target. And how someone (VS), while they are used to dogs, are not used to the way you work them in this venue.

Also lots of handler tidbits such as it's not what you say but how you say it. No OB once you start working the scene. Don't expect your new dog to be like your old dog. The best one was a guy, who was getting a replacement dog, say handlers pick up bad habits over time and it pays to watch the younger guys who aren't full of bad habits [ so you can fix your bad habits]. Plus keep the feet moving....

You get so see them working blocks or a daisy wheel in episode 5. Even I learned something new about making sure you search the first 10 ft into the room. To often you start the dog at the door and the dog bounds forward so the doorway area is never searched.


----------



## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Harry Keely said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dvsUmU3syQ
> 
> Good episodes to watch...........


Thank you for posting this link.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> Even if you don't like VS, watch episodes 4 and 5. You get a chance to see different people trying to present the same search target. And how someone (VS), while they are used to dogs, are not used to the way you work them in this venue.
> 
> Also lots of handler tidbits such as it's not what you say but how you say it. No OB once you start working the scene. Don't expect your new dog to be like your old dog. The best one was a guy, who was getting a replacement dog, say handlers pick up bad habits over time and it pays to watch the younger guys who aren't full of bad habits [ so you can fix your bad habits]. Plus keep the feet moving....
> 
> You get so see them working blocks or a daisy wheel in episode 5. Even I learned something new about making sure you search the first 10 ft into the room. To often you start the dog at the door and the dog bounds forward so the doorway area is never searched.



Agree about the different little tibits in the videos. 

Fortunately the team I was on was 90% fire fighters so the Search the first 10ft was pretty much driven in on any sort of building search. 

As you mentioned some of the dog just shot into the building.


----------

