# imprinting pups



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

specifically, WHEN and WHAT do all you experienced puppy-raisers out there imprint your pups on?

and just what does it mean to "imprint"? i started Brix on food pads for tracking when he was 16 wks old ( waited for the snow to melt)--was that "imprinting" or just starting tracking? are there "windows" for imprinting? and what are they?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ajay the GSD, was started on scent pads as soon as Betty started feeding them solids I believe. 

Jesea was given cadaver scented toys as soon as she came home at 9 wks. 

The litter that we are hoping for will be imprinted on cadaver toys at one week...

Plans for the new arrivals will be lots of handling, holding them in different positions and as they grow and start moving around, I will introduce them to all kinds of environmental stuff, different surfaces, a cd player will play different kinds of sounds (starting at low voumes and gradually increasing), they will travel with me as a group with mom and then when they can be away from mom I will take a few at a time to the office and the fire station with me. 

They will all learn to be crate trained before they are shipped or delivered to their new owners. 

My hopes for doing this is to acclimate the puppies to all of this stuff to build their confidence, so that when they arrive to the new owner, they are used to things and the transition from litter to new home is easier for them. 

Hope that makes sense.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

The optimum window for imprinting is 6 - 12 weeks, when the rate of learning is fastest.

I will imprint everything that I expect the pup to use within it's lifetime, and everything I expect the pup to use within it's lifetime if it would wash out for the purpose for which the dog was acquired.

ETA:

I use clicker training to introduce every thing, capturing behavior and moving on to the next as quickly as possible, without putting it on cue. It's pretty magical how much the dog will remember even a year later.

There is some evidence to suggest that retrieving must be introduced before 16 weeks. My experience has been that this is true.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> There is some evidence to suggest that retrieving must be introduced before 16 weeks. My experience has been that this is true.


Is there an on-line source for reading this evidence? If so, can you post it?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I wish I could find the dang article I read that talks about females doing odor detection are more than likely "imprinting" the pups in the womb on the odors they are trained for......UGH...KIM G, do you remember that? 

I will keep looking. I had thought I bookmarked something but cannot find it.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Is there an on-line source for reading this evidence? If so, can you post it?


This comes from the Handboook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training, Volume 1. I can check tonight and see if there is a specific study referenced that may be available online.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Reason I'm asking is that I have had experience with 2 dogs (both Malinois) who didn't seem to have a clue what a retrieve was when I got them as young adults (10 mos. - 18 mos.), but lit up like firecrackers once I showed them what the game was. It seemed to me as if they had never retrieved before in their lives, but became obsessed with retrieving as soon as they were exposed to it. 

Let me know if you find that info on a particular study in that book. Unfortunately, I don't own it


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I use clicker training to introduce every thing, capturing behavior and moving on to the next as quickly as possible, without putting it on cue.


will you explain this in greater detail please? "capturing behavior", etc. thanks.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Capturing is simply rewarding a behavior that the dog already does, to get the dog to repeat the behavior.

With a pup, I start with the behavior of focus and I will load my marker at the same time. So every time pup looks at me, I will mark and treat, until pup will look at me to get a treat. At this point I can start to capture anything. I mark and treat everything that I like. Walking backwards, a natural stack, a certain gait, a bark, 4 feet on the floor, positions, scenting behavior, retrieving, touch pads, going to crate, coming to heel. By rewarding everything I like and ignoring what I don't, I can shape the puppy into what I want it to be without ever teaching the pup a cue.

Here is a video that shows a 12 week old pup's trained behavior (look at me/come to me) but it also shows a _captured_ come-to-heel. I didn't train the come to heel. She offered it as a puppy-jumping-on-me and I shaped it into a finish in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ4SCtGFzs4


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Reason I'm asking is that I have had experience with 2 dogs (both Malinois) who didn't seem to have a clue what a retrieve was when I got them as young adults (10 mos. - 18 mos.), but lit up like firecrackers once I showed them what the game was. It seemed to me as if they had never retrieved before in their lives, but became obsessed with retrieving as soon as they were exposed to it.
> 
> Let me know if you find that info on a particular study in that book. Unfortunately, I don't own it



message deleted. wrong thread.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For me, imprinting the "come" has always been #! with any pup I've ever owned. 
Before they are 12-14 wks old they don't want to be left alone for any period. I simply take them for off leash walks in the woods, fields, etc.At this early age they soon learn to keep up if they don't want to be left. If they get interested in something and stop paying attention I simply hide behid a tree, lay down on the ground, anything to hide from them. 
When the pup realizes it's alone it will get a bit excited and start looking. I then show myself with a simple "here" command or use the pups name. It comes in flying and gets a reward. 
I was doing this as a kid and not even realizing what I was doing. If I had a new pup and I went up to the park or school yard the pup just followed. 
Other then for competition "front" position I've never had to formally "train" a dog to come when called and I've never had a dog, that I raised, that didn't come when I called. 
I've seen way to may "competion" dogs that were trained for a particular set of exercises but weren't worth a crap as just good old companion dogs. What I've always referred to as truck dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

http://www.gonetothedogs.com/imprinting.asp

Day-by-day imprinting. Very interesting but makes me wonder how much the dog's nature is taken into consideration. Genetically weak or strong pups will turn out differently? Negative imprinting might ruin one dog but another will get over it.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> At this early age they soon learn to keep up if they don't want to be left. If they get interested in something and stop paying attention I simply hide behid a tree, lay down on the ground, anything to hide from them.
> When the pup realizes it's alone it will get a bit excited and start looking. I then show myself with a simple "here" command or use the pups name. It comes in flying and gets a reward.


I think "come" is an important thing to imprint at a young age as well, however, I don't think I'd do it this way. I would worry that this would cause problems for me later. My dogs need to be independent searchers, meaning they leave my side and go way out of sight for a significant duration while searching for buried live human scent. The dog can't be worrying about me and shouldn't be checking back in with me.

Bob - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this since you also did wilderness SAR. Thanks!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

_Imprinting- a learned behavior._

The *sound of noise* from metal pans beaten daily, the sound of keys, the lawn mower, the wheelborrow, 2x4s clapped together. 

*"Come"* the command equals something good, food.

A swivel snap or two placed on a collar, now fighting the leash at 8 weeks of age isn't going to happen.

Light body taps early, lifting off the ground, calming voice tones to let the pup know "pop" has the "problem" under control...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

One week????? What the heck ? ? ? ? THey cannot see hear or think, so I am curious.

Just do half of them. :-D I want to see if that is BS or not. (I am on the side of BS)


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> One week????? What the heck ? ? ? ? THey cannot see hear or think, so I am curious.
> 
> Just do half of them. :-D I want to see if that is BS or not. (I am on the side of BS)



They can smell though, they use their nose from birth....We don't expect them to hear, see or think about anything at that age....but we put the scented toys in there so that they get used to it. It is not a huge source of scent, mild actually, so much so that we cannot smell it...

If your willing to buy a pup Jeff, I will keep one back and not imprint it....just kidding. 

The good fun of playing with them until they are up cruising around with eyes open and they notice us. 

We will handle them from day one. Starting out gradually and then working into them being held in all kinds of positions and getting used to being touched on their feet, ears, mouths and such. 

It may or may not be myth, but I have had pups that were handled like this and not handled like this and the ones that were handled and imprinted seemed to adjust better from the first day home.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I think "come" is an important thing to imprint at a young age as well, however, I don't think I'd do it this way. I would worry that this would cause problems for me later. My dogs need to be independent searchers, meaning they leave my side and go way out of sight for a significant duration while searching for buried live human scent. The dog can't be worrying about me and shouldn't be checking back in with me.
> 
> Bob - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this since you also did wilderness SAR. Thanks!


 
Konnie, good point but I haven't seen that with my dogs. I can't honestly say it's how I raise/train them, how I select them or both but I don't think compliance has to contradict independence or go along with being needy. 
When not on a command all my dogs will follow me anywhere it in the yard or in the middle of nowhere, but my GSDs and the working terriers I've had have always had strong hunt drives. They have always hit high gear with a "find" or a "check it out" command. 
We also did a lot of building search training. I had more directional control on my dogs then most on the team but that didn't have any effect on the desire to keep going. They were just more Biddable while searching. 
Same can be said for the herding test I did. They were very biddable and controlable while on the sheep but it didn't keep them from working full tilt. 
Now, with Schutzhund, I see the same "drive" to get to the helper on a blind search. That drive doesn't mean I can't stop them on a dime with a command or that they can't do the work without constantly needing direction. 
I actually don't like a "needy" dog but I do expect compliance.


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## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> Capturing is simply rewarding a behavior that the dog already does, to get the dog to repeat the behavior.
> 
> With a pup, I start with the behavior of focus and I will load my marker at the same time. So every time pup looks at me, I will mark and treat, until pup will look at me to get a treat. At this point I can start to capture anything. I mark and treat everything that I like. Walking backwards, a natural stack, a certain gait, a bark, 4 feet on the floor, positions, scenting behavior, retrieving, touch pads, going to crate, coming to heel. By rewarding everything I like and ignoring what I don't, I can shape the puppy into what I want it to be without ever teaching the pup a cue.
> 
> ...


Point very well made Anne!!!
The one question I have is, when you click do you also say "good boy/girl,OK"o or do you remain quiet and let the clicker do the whloe job??


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

CLICKER? Gunfire! That's the ******* way...:-#


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jose' Abril said:


> Point very well made Anne!!!
> The one question I have is, when you click do you also say "good boy/girl,OK"o or do you remain quiet and let the clicker do the whloe job??


:lol: It depends. I eventually drop out the clicker and use "Yes." (And I am in a habit of good boy/good girl _after_ the click.) For puppy imprinting, it's only the click.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> CLICKER? Gunfire! That's the ******* way...:-#


Wellllllll Howard....I do live in South Dakota....HAHAHAHAHA


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Imprinting???? Cut tails at 3, 4,or 5 days. Put them back in the box until they start coming out at 3 1/2 weeks. By 4 weeks they are getting pretty stable and I see which ones have the most confidence and handle the ones that are lacking. Sometime between 5 and 7 weeks I take them out together, away from mom and dad and put them in the yard and let them wander and start visiting all the other dog yards and visiting the older dogs while I go in the house and watch from the window. I figure they get plenty of touching from mom and dad nosing them around. After that they get plenty of touching from older pups and dogs I do make sure they are used to having me reach over their heads to be picked up otherwise they back out of reach. When someone comes to look at pups, they may get to come into the house two at a time(One confident and one not as confident) while I explain what the people are seeing. Things like how long it takes their tail to come up the first time indoors, how they react to their first time on a slick surface. I take a couple of minutes and teach them to sit. That always blows people away when they see it only takes 2 to 4 little pieces of hot dog. Pet people willingly take the less confident because the confident one has run through the room pulling everything down. Not sure if I imprint or not. 
I use Bob's method of luring them into the water. I cross in a shallow spot and hide. Eventually, they decide they have to cross.....but they make the decision to do so on their own. I try to put them in situations that natually lure them into learning things on their own.
The other day some folks where here to pick up a 5 mo old female. I had 7 seven week old females loose in the yards visiting. They came in the yard and were laughing about these pups being scattered all over the 2 acres. I told them to stand by the gate while I put them up. I yelled out, "Let's go, come on!!" and there were pups running up out of the dry creekbed, three from another yard climbing through the gate....they were running in from every direction and all gathered in front of me. I opened the gate to their pen and they all filed in like clockwork. People have a hard time believing that you can get them to do that at 7 weeks without the constant human intervention. Let them be dogs and put them in an environment that can challenge them and go in the house and have a drink and leave them alone. They learn to relate to other dogs, they learn their boundaries, they learn by exposure. They learn fast.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm noticing a lot of fuzzy distinctions between _what is imprinting_ and _what is habituation or desensitization._ Any thoughts about the difference?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don, your imprinting! You just haven't larnt to use all them fancy words. :grin: :wink:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

When you cut the tails and put them back in the box, how do they get out at 3 1/2 weeks?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl, good question, what exactly is habituation and desensitization? Is this as opposed to imprinting?

How do they get out at three and a half weeks? These are three weeks. The white stuff outside thye door is snow.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh you guys and your "semantics"  gives me nearly as many grey hairs as my 19 and 16 yr old children (who are up for adoption, BTW--they REALLY are good kids and i'll take them back after they've graduated fr. college...lol)

the reason i asked initially was to find out (obviously) WHEN the best 'impriniting age" was; i think the answer has been 4-16 weeks. 

i personally think that "what" a person chooses to ty to imprint on their pup has a great deal to do with what that pup's job is going to be in adulthood. i happen to greatly admire not only Don's breeding program, but also the way he raises his pups. that method isn't for everyone, nor is how and what and when to imprint the same for everyone. i also greatly admire Daryl's breeding program (and a lot of others too numerous to name, but i could).

i just find the "imprinting" periods as fascincating and what everyone (as a breeder or a puppy-buyer) does, and finds successful, a neat subject for discussion.

better than frickin politics/economics here lately....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ann would you believe I now have a dog named Palin. It just came to me some time back while I was watchin TV. Not real sure where I got that name but she is a leggy little girl with a lot of spunk


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I totally despise politics :-(

I find imprinting fascinating as well, but with decades of study there has been little conclusive scientific evidence that supports many of the ideas behind it. I think I prefer Locke's Theory of Neurolinguistic Devolopment which makes use of the term _sensitive period_ rather than _critical period_: a period which is optimal for "tuning". I don't believe the valve simply shuts off any particular day or week.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh don, NO WAY!! i think you're pullin' my leg...but if she's like that, no problem  she'll kill a hog or 3, right?? 

i am entirely TOO gullible sometimes...maybe i should buy her fr ya--we do have feral hogs here that can be hunted (once the crops are off..), nice fat hogs fattened up on corn/soybeans...no no no no no. stop it!

daryl i'm not a behavioral psychologist, so Locke's Theory means nothing to me(and is this theory applicable to which species?). however, re imprintng pups, it seems now we're getting down to the da#m semantics--i was simply asking for the basics as they apply to beginners. like me.

ie: with an 8-wk old pup, fresh from the airplane, what and when and how do experienced ppl imprint behaviors? beyond crate-training/housebreaking.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't knpow about imprinting an 8 week old dog Ann. I always considered something simple like conditioning for a specific response through repetition of an enjoyable such as a piece of hot dog. Is conditioning the same thing as imprinting, habituation, or desensitization. I always thought imprinting was 1) The first thing the pup sees. 2) That bright red mark shaped like a womans hand on the side of a mans face.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

> But is imprinting learned, or is it innate and unlearned behavior? Does it represent some combination of learned and innate behaviors? No one quite knows, but these are questions the psychologist and ethologist address.
> 
> _~John P. Houston, Fundamentals of Learning and Memory, 3rd ed._


And many of the experts don't necessarily agree, either. It's just theory. Most experiments conducted have been on birds, so perhaps not so useful in regard to dogs. Some experts have attempted to characterize imprinting as no different than ordinary learning, and there's been little success proving either side of the argument. What the ethologists attempted with the concept of a "critical period", was an unsatisfactory explanation for what occurs, and admit there is merely a lessening of the tendency to imprint following this critical period, and an increase in the tendency to flee from any novel stimulus. Several experiments support the idea that fear blocks imprinting beyond the critical period. Wasn't the fear period supposed to be 8 to 10 weeks? What about the "novelty gene", the exploratory puppy? Maybe its all just overlapping thresholds of both innate AND learned behavior, fear AND attraction?



> Purely innate behavior represents one extreme end of the dimension. Present a stimulus to the animal, and the response will occur automatically. Neither practice nor reinforcement is necessary to establish this association. It seems as if the connection is already there, or built into the animal's nervous system.
> 
> At the other end of the continuum we find events that just do not seem to be learnable, no matter how much practice or reinforcement is involved.
> 
> ...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Personally, I see much of this theory as BS. The fear period is this... the learning period is that. I have seen many pups that show extreme avoidance at 2 1/2 to 3 weeks old. For all intense and purpose they are as feral as any undomesticated coyote or fox. While many want to put a time frame to everything, it simply cannot be done. It took me a while to realize that what I was seeing in these very young pups was not so much a lack of confidence as it was they were simply feral. They don't fully get over it and it starts before they can walk. When I see time lines applied to living animals, I am skepticle to say the least. There are simply a lot of things I have to question. Fear definitley overrides any learning process. When there is fear, they don't have a learning curve even close to the confident pups. Recently I had several litters. All conceived in hot weather where the dogs all live outdoors. The male is the determinate for what sex is being born. There were 23 pups born. 3 males and 20 females. I went and pulled the records for the ones conceived in the winter last year. 33 pups. 16 males and 17 females. When I get time, I will go back and pull records for previous years but I suspect there will be a correlation because the male sperm is noted to be weaker than the female. When a weak litter is born, the newborn males are the first to go. What I am trying to say is there is simply a lot of unsubstantiated info written about dogs.....One of these go to the other thread. There are whole books written about the Dominace Theory. I think it is BS but at least it is referred to as a "theory". Daryl aptly pointed out that most of the studies concerning imprinting are simply opinion and not based on fact.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I hear ya, Don. If there's some magical voodo, only the skeptical pragmatist will find it, because of all the BS you need to wade through and find out for yourself what works and what doesn't. Even Darwin's theory of Evolution, is just that -- a theory. Albeit one that can't seem to be either proven or disproved. A well established theory with overwhelming evidence to support it, is a far cry different from what is proposed with imprinting, though. Imprinting is a poorly defined, narrowly researched concept.



> Is conditioning the same thing as imprinting, habituation, or desensitization.


I mentioned the terms, only because pots and pans and body taps had little to do with imprinting, that I could tell. Imprinting is different, while the others are fairly interrelated and would involve lessening the (undesireable) response to a stimulus. If you think terminology in the dog disciplines is confusing, it's much worse in psychology, ethology, etc. There's habituation, desensitization, adaptation, or UCS (unconditioned stimulus) preexposure effect, and other closely related terms among the various specialist disciplines. An example in dog training might be, lessening the affects of exposure to gunfire, or the lessening of response to a prong collar correction. Resulting in the effects of decreasing a response from the dog, either for good or bad. Imprinting would elicit a behavior, not quell it.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> 2) That bright red mark shaped like a womans hand on the side of a mans face.


don, wouldn't that be aversive conditioning?? haha. but you could call it imprinting as well =D>


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Don's discovered the sixth process!  You might need an agent to get your work published. ;-)



> The evolution of learning
> Bruce R. Moore
> Department of Psychology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada B3H 4J1 (E-mail: [email protected])
> 
> ...


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