# light bulb just went off !



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not really starting a thread, just wanted to post this anyway

hadn't watched in ages, but the show came up while channel surfing

i FINALLY think i connected the dots and figured out why Cesar's show is so successful
- why others look down on his methods
- why others look up
- why the concept is PERFECT for a TV program

no....i don't want to discuss Cesar.....BUT
is there a takeaway for dog training ?

i think so 

take time off, then revisit and you might see something you never saw before and LEARN SOMETHING


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

My friend is a GSD breeder. There had been an incident with an adult dog of her breeding, and I went with her to see the dog in the home because I offered to foster him while she tried to rehome him. 

We were just chatting in the living room of the home and I was watching the dog and the owner to get to know what I might be getting into. Another woman, who was also interested in the dog arrived, with a male friend she'd brought along to help assess the dog. He was barely inside the door when he started barking commands at the dog. He projected an air of "Step aside, little ladies, a real dog trainer is here"

Rude, condescending and completely unhelpful. The dog looked confused and unsure. The guy was a dick. 

Yet there are people who are so at a loss with the mess they've created with their dog that they want someone to step in, take control and fix the problem they've created. Cesar is charming, photogenic and appears to know what he's doing and in an hour, fixes everything with what appears to be minimal effort on the owner's part. It's magic. It saves dogs' lives. 

Interested to hear your take, rick.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Rick, thought provoking.

1. what type of light bulb was this?
2. is it bright enough to illuminate you through similar moments of darkness?
3. how did it turn on?
4. do you recommend it for others?
5. what is the projected life of this bulb?
6. who is Cesar?

I'm feeling a breakthrough coming. Can't wait to read the follow up. :idea:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

C'mon Rick! Don't leave us in the dark and tell us what you discovered. :grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It's human nature for people to want to be led. To have a figure which they model their ideals and behaviors by. A savior of sort. It's a solution to a self created problem. The fact of and answer to all our problems (real or imagined). Veruca Salt. I want it. I want it all. I want it all right now.

A matter of eyes wide shut. Hiding in plain sight perhaps. A muse.

And, still I ask… who is Cesar? 

BTW, does anybody else besides me miss good ole Dave Colburn?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Cesar Milan is, by TV definition The Dog Wisperer.

He's more about training owners then the dogs. 

Lots of good stuff but I believe editing by the producers covers up a lot of stuff many fokes would object to. 

I have no issues with a lot of what he does.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nobody who ever whispered in a dogs ear ever got away with it. Who the hell whispers to dogs and why? Does the dog talk back?

He could stick a finger up a dogs ass and I still wouldn't care who he is. Although, I would still ask the question. Who is Cesar? It's philosophical in context. I'm sure you understand.

Rick shared his light bulb with me. I feel very inspired.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lucky lady!

I do know that sticking one's finger up a dog's ass can break up a good dog fight. :grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

and YES I do miss Dave. He had a ton of knowledge and I'll forever remember him going to California to show a dog breeder that his (breeder's) dogs would bail when pressured.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

The real deal evolution of putting your money where your mouth is. It's not too often an opportunity like that comes up. I figured it was a safe bet to take. I couldn't lose either way.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think 99% of the dogs out there don't have it in them to really go for it.

I'd bet that Howard or any of the "real" K9 LEOs would tell youo that even fully trained K9s can often fail on their first bite.

Some get over it and some just get dumped or used for scent work only.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

^^^ This is true. There's a number of reason why and I believe the main issue is the training. A dog who will bite for real only has to be taught correctly that it's okay. Even then, when the rubber meets the road and it happens for real, many are less than stellar at first. Of the dogs that I've seen trained correctly in civil work 80% or more fail to do any real damage on the first real bite. Some are quick learners and subsequent bites are ugly, some not so much their whole career. My current partner is that way and I don't see him getting a hell of a lot better but he will still leave punctures. My first two dogs were scary on real bites and it was always something in the back of my mind even though the perp deserved it in those situations. I still felt bad. You can't tell the dog to throttle back on some guys, or throttle up on others. With the first two it was balls out every time.

Am I a little disappointed in my current partner? Yes...and no. Yes I'd like him to be a little harder. No, because he's easy to train and is doing fantastic otherwise. It's a dance. End of the day, I trust him with my life and that's all that counts. I will say though that if you fight him a little switch goes off and he is a dick, much harder. On real live passive or prey only bites he's just so-so. I'm pretty honest when it comes to working dogs. I make no excuses, even for my own dog. The reason I chose him was because out of all the dogs the vendor had available, this is the only one I knew that would bite for real at the time of testing. He was only 14 months old and I had only half a school to get him ready for the street. Knowing that he was pretty civil meant that I didn't have as much work to put into him.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Howard!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> ^^^ This is true. There's a number of reason why and I believe the main issue is the training. A dog who will bite for real only has to be taught correctly that it's okay. Even then, when the rubber meets the road and it happens for real, many are less than stellar at first. Of the dogs that I've seen trained correctly in civil work 80% or more fail to do any real damage on the first real bite. Some are quick learners and subsequent bites are ugly, some not so much their whole career. My current partner is that way and I don't see him getting a hell of a lot better but he will still leave punctures. My first two dogs were scary on real bites and it was always something in the back of my mind even though the perp deserved it in those situations. I still felt bad. You can't tell the dog to throttle back on some guys, or throttle up on others. With the first two it was balls out every time.
> 
> Am I a little disappointed in my current partner? Yes...and no. Yes I'd like him to be a little harder. No, because he's easy to train and is doing fantastic otherwise. It's a dance. End of the day, I trust him with my life and that's all that counts. I will say though that if you fight him a little switch goes off and he is a dick, much harder. On real live passive or prey only bites he's just so-so. I'm pretty honest when it comes to working dogs. I make no excuses, even for my own dog. The reason I chose him was because out of all the dogs the vendor had available, this is the only one I knew that would bite for real at the time of testing. He was only 14 months old and I had only half a school to get him ready for the street. Knowing that he was pretty civil meant that I didn't have as much work to put into him.


i've also seen the reverse. lots of damage the first few bites, then not as much damage. i believe the reasons are not different than you describe above. a good dog can still be unsure of whether or not it's ok to bite a person the first couple of times. most of the time, that dog has been "phooied" off of live bites or if the handler thinks they might be eyeballing a person in training on a search (this can be greatly mitigated with muzzle work and concealed sleeves). the first couple bites for this dog may just be frontal mouth bites with several re-grips. frontal mouth bites with the canines tearing skin can make for some nasty damage. as this dog "figures it out", the bite gets deeper and often just punctures with the teeth at the back of the mouth with the first grasp (no re-bites or typewritering). i've seen this happen with a few dogs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Tim!

More good info!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the term "damage" is VERY relative !

when a dog thrashes on a bite, surface tissues tear and there is more blood...often can look bad, especially if a canine tooth does the tearing
- punctures rarely bleed much, and bleeding rarely causes pain

for me, worse "damage" happens when a dog grips and applies constantly increasing pressure.
for me the extreme pain comes from pressure on bone. from deep bruises that take a week or better to heal. some people bruise easily; i don't

anyone who has worn protective gear for any kind of bite work knows this already and anyone who does a lot of work with dogs will get bit, but the deep pressure bites will be few and far between

for me, if the dog stayed on the bite it did the job even if it had to regrip or thrash a bit. in most all applications, a K9 is supposed to be less than lethal force and neutralise the threat. no more no less
- they're not perfect and we shouldn't expect them to be. 
- TOO many variable that CANNOT be trained for. just need to be reliable, effective and motivated to improve....just like the handler 

Howard
i'd like to read more about how bad training techniques can make a dog less reliable for live apprehensions on the street


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

forgot to ask this Howard, but i read a comment about this

1. do dual purpose PSD's stay on the force if they fail to re-cert for patrol work ?
2. what is the ratio of dual purpose vs single purpose PSD's these days and are there single purpose patrol only dogs ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not that it matters anymore, but the main reason i started this thread was when i wrote this :

"take time off, then revisit and you might see something you never saw before and LEARN SOMETHING "

nobody has ever done this and had a light bulb go off ??
guess i'm just a minority of one ... as usual //rotflmao//


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> the term "damage" is VERY relative !
> 
> when a dog thrashes on a bite, surface tissues tear and there is more blood...often can look bad, especially if a canine tooth does the tearing
> - punctures rarely bleed much, and bleeding rarely causes pain
> ...


all very true and yes, by "damage" i meant tears, blood, things that don't look good in a picture.



rick smith said:


> not that it matters anymore, but the main reason i started this thread was when i wrote this :
> 
> "take time off, then revisit and you might see something you never saw before and LEARN SOMETHING "
> 
> ...


not just you. i agree and i'll say that since i've been without an active working dog for over a year, but still training others, just watching people handle their dogs you can learn a lot. some good, some bad, but watching others handle their dogs, you always pick things up that you don't catch when you're handling your own dog.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Howard
> i'd like to read more about how bad training techniques can make a dog less reliable for live apprehensions on the street
> 
> 
> ...


 Bad training techniques....

1) Sleeve only training
2) Prey only training
3) Failure to train passive
4) Failure to train female/ethnicities
5) Failure to teach dog to ground fight. 
6) Failure to train civil
7) Failure to train on basically naked decoys (use modesty of course)
8) Failure to train situational awareness in bite work

I'm sure there are a few others but off the top of my head that's what I got.

Ref a dual purpose failing to certify in manwork....The last dog I inherited left me in harms way before I put my foot down and called him a liability. I saw it right away but the PD made me document situations which unfortunately put me at risk. That dog was sold to an agency in Indiana with very stern and adamant comments that he NOT be used as an apprehension dog. This dog was badass on the field!!! Everyone lost their minds when I washed him out. They just couldn't believe that I had him so spun up and he had to go! I mean, badass. I was so proud of him. But, when it came to real live deployments...total avoidance of human odor as well as pissing himself when he couldn't avoid the bad guy. Boy I was pissed off cause all the work I put into him. I found out that the agency that bought him as a drug only dog was doing manwork with him. I put it in email that he stop immediately. The handler never contacted me again. Seems this dog tricked them as well with his great stuff on the training field.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Rick, thought provoking.
> 
> 1. what type of light bulb was this?
> 2. is it bright enough to illuminate you through similar moments of darkness?
> ...


Best post ever :lol:

I also miss Dave


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Best post ever :lol:
> 
> I also miss Dave


Well, if I can't have Dave here with me, I am grateful that I can count on you. Glad to see you around Matt!! Hope the pups are coming along well.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> I found out that the agency that bought him as a drug only dog was doing manwork with him. I put it in email that he stop immediately. The handler never contacted me again. Seems this dog tricked them as well with his great stuff on the training field.


Damn. Reading stuff like that makes my heart sink. :evil:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Well, if I can't have Dave here with me, I am grateful that I can count on you. Glad to see you around Matt!! Hope the pups are coming along well.



Ditto!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Tim Martens said:


> not just you. i agree and i'll say that since i've been without an active working dog for over a year, but still training others, just watching people handle their dogs you can learn a lot. some good, some bad, but watching others handle their dogs, you always pick things up that you don't catch when you're handling your own dog.


This, is a very good point. One that absolutely cannot and should not ever be underestimated in value. A true gem of advice. Also a stellar example of an opportunity where one can find solutions and a wealth of information.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Well, if I can't have Dave here with me, I am grateful that I can count on you. Glad to see you around Matt!! Hope the pups are coming along well.


 they are coming along nicely. They aren't quite as insane as Tillies though :-\"
Couple of ones I have high hopes for, if you are watching the vids, I'm looking to keep two from: Blue collar male, orange collar male, red collar female, purple collared female. 

Blue and Purple are fairly good facsimiles of Indie and Sali respectively. Hopefully purple won't be such an asshole but i'm not gonna put money on it, least I have ze skills this time round. Blue collar will be easy peasy like Indie. Red and Orange are looking like good "truck dogs" so it's up to what i want to train really rather than ability. 

Rick, I am of the opinion CM is an asshole so I really would like to know what this lightbulb is shining on as I have watched his stuff alot and all I see is crap tbh.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm lying actually, some of the stuff he says is spot on, his method of shutting the dogs down is what I disagree with.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Matt on CM!


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