# Are the Malinois taking over the Gsd in LE?



## Ken Seminatore

It sure looks like it, what I see in LE mags sure indicate the advance of the Mals,


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## Thomas Barriano

Old News Ken, it's been happening for awhile now. Mals are cheaper, healthier, more drive, easier to train, mature faster then GSD's etc. etc.


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## Hunter Allred

Popularity will have the same effects on mals lol... Give it time :-(

I have a GSD I'd put up against any mal in the work Have several multi mal LE handlers begging for a pup from her now. That being said, she's really mal'y anyway


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## Jon Harris

I think they are making great strides in the LE field for the reasons already given. Also the breeders are taking advantage of the faster turn around on the mals so they will naturally lean that way.
Personally, I've always had GSD and will stay with that breed. Nothing wrong with the mals at all. It is just personal preference.


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## Hunter Allred

Jon Harris said:


> I think they are making great strides in the LE field for the reasons already given. Also the breeders are taking advantage of the faster turn around on the mals so they will naturally lean that way.
> Personally, I've always had GSD and will stay with that breed. Nothing wrong with the mals at all. It is just personal preference.


I'm committed to correcting the course of GSDs 8):-|


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## Matt Vandart

I believe there is a trend towards Dutch in the uk and away from Mals, or so I have herd.


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## Ben Thompson

Matt Vandart said:


> I believe there is a trend towards Dutch in the uk and away from Mals, or so I have herd.


 Thats what I was thinking. I'd pick a dutch shepherd over a belgian malinois if I were into the LE thing. I've seen some malinois with some serious nerve issues down this way. Also some really good ones too.


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## rick smith

why should we care ??

dutch, belgian, german .... they are all shepherds, right ?
avoid breed bias ... looks, purity and standards are only important in the eyes of the show people and people choosing a pup out of a litter 

...there will always be flavors of the month, year and decade; even in working lines

for working dogs, breed the ones who have the most fire in the gut and train the rest. 
.......K.I.S.S.


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## Hunter Allred

rick smith said:


> why should we care ??
> 
> dutch, belgian, german .... they are all shepherds, right ?
> avoid breed bias ... looks, purity and standards are only important in the eyes of the show people and people choosing a pup out of a litter
> 
> ...there will always be flavors of the month, year and decade; even in working lines
> 
> for working dogs, breed the ones who have the most fire in the gut and train the rest.
> .......K.I.S.S.


I wish there were not strictly closed stud books, so if the skilled breeder felt that his GSD/mal/poodle bloodlines needed a little dutchie/lab/yorkie blood mixed in for whatever reason, they could do so and not be now just breeding mutts... That's how we created all breeds anyway... Hate how at some point after intense mixing some one draws a line in the sand and says "*now* its a GSD... no more mixing anything, the blood must remain "pure" for all eternity"

Or maybe we working folks should take a lesson from the designer dog world and just make shit up after mixing breeds and make things like Dutchmen Shepherd Dogs, or German Dutchinois Dogs


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## Joby Becker

so when we say that LE in UK is using DS over Mal, or that you might pick a DS over a Mal, are we talking purebreeds here, or just using the description to describe the color of the dogs? 

When you say Dutch do you mean DS or Dutch type dogs in general.

I also know that in many cases LE and MWD handlers/departments do not even get the pedigree info..so many of them cannot even say what country the lines originate from or if they are purebred or not..

Ben, Matt....are these mals or dutchies?


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## Jon Harris

the dogs we use here in Iraq have no papers. this is my 4th dog with this company and although they all looked like GSDs and I believe they probably were ( mostly) there is no way to really tell if there was something else in there. From what I can see the military and the contract companies don't really care as long as the dog works and fit a certain profile


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## Joby Becker

Jon Harris said:


> the dogs we use here in Iraq have no papers. this is my 4th dog with this company and although they all looked like GSDs and I believe they probably were ( mostly) there is no way to really tell if there was something else in there. From what I can see the military and the contract companies don't really care as long as the dog works and fit a certain profile


this is my understanding. My coupla buddies that are overseas have no clue where there dogs are from or what they specifically are..they "appear" mali-like though for the most part


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## Jon Harris

I also think my dog here ,Mad, is maybe bipolar. Not always sure in the morning which dog im going to get.
Sometime its the sweet nice obedient detection machine, sometimes it Cujo. It changes at the drop of the hat.


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## Joby Becker

Jon Harris said:


> I also think my dog here ,Mad, is maybe bipolar. Not always sure in the morning which dog im going to get.
> Sometime its the sweet nice obedient detection machine, sometimes it Cujo. It changes at the drop of the hat.


that is the fun part


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## Austin Porter

Joby Becker said:


> so when we say that LE in UK is using DS over Mal, or that you might pick a DS over a Mal, are we talking purebreeds here, or just using the description to describe the color of the dogs?
> 
> When you say Dutch do you mean DS or Dutch type dogs in general.
> 
> I also know that in many cases LE and MWD handlers/departments do not even get the pedigree info..so many of them cannot even say what country the lines originate from or if they are purebred or not..
> 
> Ben, Matt....are these mals or dutchies?


Lol...

Arko K. and Barco?


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## Matt Vandart

Joby you make a good point.
As I said this is what I had herd, the spelling of which was the clue to the joke.


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## Mario Fernandez

I guess I am Mal person, Like all dogs...it really depends on the dept. needs and what is available. A guy I know is a broker and tells me various LE agency have their preference. Some what Mals some want GSD, some will take Dutchies..some will take mix as long as they do the job...


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## Ben Thompson

Joby it goes without saying that when we talk about working dogs we are talking about work not color. I don't know if you are aware of this but most belgian malinois and GSD are pure bred they have papers. If they were cross we would type malinois X or GSD X or dutch malinois like in the case of that first dog in your picture. The point is it is the man or woman behind the breeding that I look at. They are the ones selecting which dogs to breed. And if you buy a pup from them then you obviously trust that they test the parents of said pup to your standards.


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## Guy Williams

I would have to disagree that the UK are using Dutchies. I know of a few but most are stll GSD. There is still a good sprinkling of Malis but a lot of it is down to personal preferences of the trainers with the purse strings.

I like the sound of those German dutchinois though!


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## Hunter Allred

Jon Harris said:


> I also think my dog here ,Mad, is maybe bipolar. Not always sure in the morning which dog im going to get.
> Sometime its the sweet nice obedient detection machine, sometimes it Cujo. It changes at the drop of the hat.


I never know what dog is coming out of my trailer... even between sessions lol.


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## Ted Summers

our local PD has 12 dogs consisting of GSDs, DSs, and Mals, and a few Mal GSD crosses. Our Sheriff Dept is all Mals as far as I know. I was talking to some handlers and someone asked what 'lines' his dog was from and he shrugged and said "mean ones." :roll::lol: best answer ever. I think most of these guys have a contact or contacts that they source green or trained dogs from. My local PD is large enough they have their own training setup and they source green dogs from a few suppliers. The Sheriffs Dept usually buys trained dogs. Most of these guys are concerned with health and longevity. When they call to get a new dog the list is pretty long..... at the top of that is list is not breed. 99% of the time its money.


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## Christopher Smith

Hunter Allred said:


> Popularity will have the same effects on mals lol... Give it time :-(
> 
> I have a GSD I'd put up against any mal in the work Have several multi mal LE handlers begging for a pup from her now. That being said, she's really mal'y anyway


I love how delusional GSD people are on this subject. Popularity is not what screwed up the GSD. It was stupid breeding practices,shackleing yourselves to the showlines, following the SV and making schutzhund the only sport the breed does. 

And if they think people are paying your GSD a compliment, by saying she is like a malinois, you are not helping the siuation. A GSD should act like a GSD.

Do any of the other Malinois folks here remember back 15-20 years ago when the GSD folks were calling the Malinois a fad? HA! Good times....



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jon has a preference for GSDs and so I assume he thinks there is a difference. I'm wondering from Hunter what makes his bitch more Mal like and how she is inconsistent from session to session--something that would drive me crazy, especially from a trialing perspective. I have two spun up reactive corgi bitches and I see this as well. I've been around Dutchies and Mals and I've always felt they were different, contrary to what Joby says. Dick/Selena say they see a difference in their litters. Others say, not. [old thread]. I usually reserve on Mals since I haven't lived with them and have only had interaction with a few. GENERALLY, Mals have a spun up reactivity and a tendency towards environmental reactivity along with prey drive load explode lala land. I've read that some are calmer than others depending on lines, so you have to take that in consideration as well. I stick to what GSDs are supposed to be in totality not in coming up with the generic drive/bite focused working dog regardless of breed, sex, etc.

T


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## Jon Harris

I think for me there are several reasons i prefer the GSD. One, when I was a kid it was the first dog I ever had.. He was from Houston from that lady ( cant remember her name) that was trying to breed the Rin Tin TIn line. He was from that and a real good dog ( in a 8 year old's eyes) AND Rin Tin TIn was on TV. As an adult and in the Army in Germany, I was fortunate enough to get a really good German bred and very heavy headed German characteristic GSD. That was the best dog I ever have had including now. The GSD Club's trainer in Kitzengin constantly said the dog was too good for an American and would try to buy him from me.
That was also the first dog I had as a family, wife and 2 year old. Simply a great dog. The family has been set on GSD ever since

Now working I was drawn to the GSD from personal pref. Over the years what I have found and it is probably strictly anecdotal is I like working with the GSDs. They are a little slower. They seem to think a little more ( to me) When you send them on a bite you can sometimes see the dog re-target and check up just a bit before engagement. They seem a little softer to correct.

The mals, and I have not worked one, seem a little more driven and quicker. I think they are a little more athletic. Ive also observed when you send a Mal on the bite they are like a bullet and just go. Seems like the decision to engage is made from the start and there is no readjustment. Also they are a little faster when handling and lastly, only from my observation, every handler I know that has been bit by their own dog, it was a mal. You ask them what happened and the pat answer is " its a Mal".

I also know lots of handler that wont handler anything else except a Mal. I think there is much personal pref in it.

To me the GSD may not be the best at everything but they are good at just about everything and that has always been plenty good enough.

Simply personal experience and observations. I'm POSITIVE others will have the exact opposite experience and preference.


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## David Baker

Jon Harris said:


> I think for me there are several reasons i prefer the GSD. One, when I was a kid it was the first dog I ever had.. He was from Houston from that lady ( cant remember her name) that was trying to breed the Rin Tin TIn line. He was from that and a real good dog ( in a 8 year old's eyes) AND Rin Tin TIn was on TV. As an adult and in the Army in Germany, I was fortunate enough to get a really good German bred and very heavy headed German characteristic GSD. That was the best dog I ever have had including now. The GSD Club's trainer in Kitzengin constantly said the dog was too good for an American and would try to buy him from me.
> That was also the first dog I had as a family, wife and 2 year old. Simply a great dog. The family has been set on GSD ever since
> 
> Now working I was drawn to the GSD from personal pref. Over the years what I have found and it is probably strictly anecdotal is I like working with the GSDs. They are a little slower. They seem to think a little more ( to me) When you send them on a bite you can sometimes see the dog re-target and check up just a bit before engagement. They seem a little softer to correct.
> 
> The mals, and I have not worked one, seem a little more driven and quicker. I think they are a little more athletic. Ive also observed when you send a Mal on the bite they are like a bullet and just go. Seems like the decision to engage is made from the start and there is no readjustment. Also they are a little faster when handling and lastly, only from my observation,* every handler I know that has been bit by their own dog, it was a mal. You ask them what happened and the pat answer is " its a Mal".*
> 
> I also know lots of handler that wont handler anything else except a Mal. I think there is much personal pref in it.
> 
> To me the GSD may not be the best at everything but they are good at just about everything and that has always been plenty good enough.
> 
> Simply personal experience and observations. I'm POSITIVE others will have the exact opposite experience and preference.



Ive had GSD's since i was 4 years old too. love them, and will probably always have one, but i think im getting a mal next. Simply b/c i love their explosiveness, longevity, health, trainability, and for the fact that ive never had one. 

Referencing what i highlighted in your post, i can't necessarily agree. We've got 3 GSD's right now (2 of them are litter mates and seriously f'n twins. have to put dif colored collars to tell who's who) that have come right up the leash on us in OB training. Keep in mind, the 2 litter mates are f'n vicious on the bite. HARD hard dogs but they have all bit or tried to bite us while handling them. LoL, one of the twins actually sent a SC police officer to the hospital during a training seminar. He wanted to catch the dog in a trial suit. We advised that it was a bad idea but he insisted. Bady (the dog) went for an arm pit bite, cut the shit out of the dudes shoulder, broke a blood vessel, and the dudes arm is completely black from the elbow all the way up and into his chest. He needed stitches. We did have a mal that was a complete bad ass that came back at us but we quickly fixed him. 

The twins are doing a lot better now and have had no further accidents handling them.


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## David Baker

Oh, and i do agree about a GSD's "thinking" mind. I think that is why Mals are easier to train, along with their high drive. A well trained Mal is going to be like a robot. He receives input ("short circut" reference  ), he does what he's told. A GSD will almost always be "thinking" and sometimes you have to combat that thinking mind. Thats just my experience.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

David Baker said:


> Ive had GSD's since i was 4 years old too. love them, and will probably always have one, but i think im getting a mal next. Simply b/c i love their explosiveness, longevity, health, trainability, and for the fact that ive never had one.
> 
> Referencing what i highlighted in your post, i can't necessarily agree. We've got 3 GSD's right now (2 of them are litter mates and seriously f'n twins. have to put dif colored collars to tell who's who) that have come right up the leash on us in OB training. Keep in mind, the 2 litter mates are f'n vicious on the bite. HARD hard dogs but they have all bit or tried to bite us while handling them. LoL, one of the twins actually sent a SC police officer to the hospital during a training seminar. He wanted to catch the dog in a trial suit. We advised that it was a bad idea but he insisted. Bady (the dog) went for an arm pit bite, cut the shit out of the dudes shoulder, broke a blood vessel, and the dudes arm is completely black from the elbow all the way up and into his chest. He needed stitches. We did have a mal that was a complete bad ass that came back at us but we quickly fixed him.
> 
> The twins are doing a lot better now and have had no further accidents handling them.


Do you have a pedigree link for the twins?

Thanks.

T


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## Marcel Winter

Holland Police don,t use GSD about 15-20 years all of them are KNPV Mali/Dutchie

Belgium Police use Mali NVBK-ring/ KNPV haven,t seen any GSD yet

Germany Police some GSD / I have seen most want replace for Mali

Tracking dogs I have seen many different breeds


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## Matt Vandart

David Baker said:


> Oh, and i do agree about a GSD's "thinking" mind. I think that is why Mals are easier to train, along with their high drive. A well trained Mal is going to be like a robot. *He receives input ("short circut" reference ** )*, he does what he's told. A GSD will almost always be "thinking" and sometimes you have to combat that thinking mind. Thats just my experience.


HA! if I ever get a male Mal he's getting called Johny5! 

I love GSD but they are just too big for me.


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## Jon Harris

Well, uh, geeze, maybe I will try a Mal for my next dog. I guess I can slip over to the dark side.
Sure hope these boys dont find out!


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## Alice Bezemer

The GSD went to hell the moment that looks became more important then performance. But I guess that's a fact for most breeds, as soon as the so called idea of a show judges beauty came into play the breed was doomed to fail. It's a shame, they used to be good dogs but the good GSD's are gone, bar a very select few lines of breeders that try to bring back the performance to the standards that used to be common practice for a GSD. I hope those breeders succeed in their task.


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## David Baker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Do you have a pedigree link for the twins?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> T


 

No. Their papers are at the kennel.


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## Gillian Schuler

Matt Vandart said:


> HA! if I ever get a male Mal he's getting called Johny5!
> 
> I love GSD but they are just too big for me.


Malinois males 62 cm max., GSD 65 cm max.


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## Gillian Schuler

I am not delusional but I have a certain tendency to the GSD. On the other hand I could well envisage a Malinois on my side.

Maybe it's the year long affinity to the GSD clubs, even when I had a Briard and a Fila Brasileiro.

Many good GSDs were exported to the States over the last, at least, 30 years. Where are these offspring?

It depends what you have for ambiitions. At the moment the Malinois is in IPO no. 1 and in Mondioring obviously.

Some people want a pup that will bring them international accolade- some people are satisfied with good results at a local club.

Sometimes just being satisfied with the dog's performance in training can bring satisfaction.


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Smith said:


> I love how delusional GSD people are on this subject. Popularity is not what screwed up the GSD. It was stupid breeding practices,shackleing yourselves to the showlines, following the SV and making schutzhund the only sport the breed does.
> 
> And if they think people are paying your GSD a compliment, by saying she is like a malinois, you are not helping the siuation. A GSD should act like a GSD.
> 
> Do any of the other Malinois folks here remember back 15-20 years ago when the GSD folks were calling the Malinois a fad? HA! Good times....
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


First, I've got nothing against mals. I like mal's. I'm not bashing mal's. I just think the only way to keep mals like they are now or improve, is to hide them from the masses.

As to my bitch.... She should act like what GSD? the current showline? the average working line? This GSD?







There are so so many hugely different GSDs that the statement "act like a GSD" has no real meaning. Is she faulty to the breed standard b/c she doesn't suck? Or are you trying to subtly say "what you *really* want, is a mal... abandon GSDs and come to the dark side" lol. Honestly, I get that a lot. 

If I'm not happy with the average GSD, then breeding a GSD I like is counter productive to the breed somehow?... thats the whole point of selective breeding. I didn't have anything to do with the SV, showlines, stupid breedings, or commitment to IPO... I decided not to have mine SV rated b/c I don't care, I don't own showlines, and I train in every venue I have available to me... if anything I have a distaste for IPO. I can't do anything about what happened before my time, but I can do something about course correction now, if only by starting my own bloodline of what I want in the dogs. Guess what, the breeding of my female next year, my first breeding ever, is entirely spoken for! One guy is a police handler with... rut roh... two mali's lol. 

Its certainly not delusion... most common people have heard of a belgian malinois though most have no idea what they look like or how they are (infact more people in public ask if my sable 90lb male GSD is a belgian malinois than ask if he's a GSD... all they know is he is "K9 looking" and doesn't fit their mental picture of a GSD), and with shows like Alpha Dogs, seeing them on cop shows, etc, the masses will begin with "ooooooooo... i want one of those!". They'll get one, say its incorrigible, get rid of it, and someone will see a business opportunity & market and fill the demand... then there will be mal's that are a nothing like nice working mals of today. One woman in my neighborhood has a mal... never worked, never had a dog before, somehow got it from a breeder as part of a business deal through their catering business. I couldn't convince her to give any sort of training a try after she told me about how "hyper" he was around the house... it begins... slippery slope. When I start seeing mal's at the Petsmart puppy classes I'll know the floodgates have opened.

DDR GSDs were nice when the wall fell because they were insulated from the stupidity of the common man plain and simple. "DDR" dogs today aren't what they were a mere 30 years ago b/c of that exposure to the common man's need to cash in. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Mal is already split into working lines and showlines yes? Google the showlines and you see people saying "the showlines are more stable temperaments and can make good family dogs". Its not hard to see what will happen when Joe Shmo reads that.


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## Hunter Allred

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Jon has a preference for GSDs and so I assume he thinks there is a difference. I'm wondering from Hunter what makes his bitch more Mal like and how she is inconsistent from session to session--something that would drive me crazy, especially from a trialing perspective. I have two spun up reactive corgi bitches and I see this as well. I've been around Dutchies and Mals and I've always felt they were different, contrary to what Joby says. Dick/Selena say they see a difference in their litters. Others say, not. [old thread]. I usually reserve on Mals since I haven't lived with them and have only had interaction with a few. GENERALLY, Mals have a spun up reactivity and a tendency towards environmental reactivity along with prey drive load explode lala land. I've read that some are calmer than others depending on lines, so you have to take that in consideration as well. I stick to what GSDs are supposed to be in totality not in coming up with the generic drive/bite focused working dog regardless of breed, sex, etc.
> 
> T


She's pretty consistent session to session... partly i was making a funny, and partly what I meant was more, sometimes she comes out on the field and we can teach new behaviors easily, and sometimes she's loaded up with stupid and the OB isn't near as nice. Its hard to explain.


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## Hunter Allred

David Baker said:


> Oh, and i do agree about a GSD's "thinking" mind. I think that is why Mals are easier to train, along with their high drive. A well trained Mal is going to be like a robot. He receives input ("short circut" reference  ), he does what he's told. A GSD will almost always be "thinking" and sometimes you have to combat that thinking mind. Thats just my experience.


I agree completely, except that its not that you must combat that thinking, you just must structure teaching/training such that you leverage that thinking. When you are able to use the thinking instead of combating it, the training is just as easy... just very different than training a highly instinctually driven dog.

My male is more "GSD" than my female. I've told people he thinks more... when told to do something, he makes sure he should do it, and when he does it is very deliberate. He has never bitten me, never gotten dirty on a helper, never snapped or bitten a stranger. If he did though, it would be b/c he decided that was the best course of action, and it would be harder to call him off than my female (I think)


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## Hunter Allred

Alice Bezemer said:


> The GSD went to hell the moment that looks became more important then performance. But I guess that's a fact for most breeds, as soon as the so called idea of a show judges beauty came into play the breed was doomed to fail. It's a shame, they used to be good dogs but the good GSD's are gone, bar a very select few lines of breeders that try to bring back the performance to the standards that used to be common practice for a GSD. I hope those breeders succeed in their task.


I'm certainly going to try.


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## Hunter Allred

Gillian Schuler said:


> I am not delusional but I have a certain tendency to the GSD. On the other hand I could well envisage a Malinois on my side.
> 
> Maybe it's the year long affinity to the GSD clubs, even when I had a Briard and a Fila Brasileiro.
> 
> Many good GSDs were exported to the States over the last, at least, 30 years. Where are these offspring?
> 
> It depends what you have for ambiitions. At the moment the Malinois is in IPO no. 1 and in Mondioring obviously.
> 
> Some people want a pup that will bring them international accolade- some people are satisfied with good results at a local club.
> 
> Sometimes just being satisfied with the dog's performance in training can bring satisfaction.


I honestly don't even care about trialing anymore... I now train for the picture I want to see, not what anyone else wants to see. I've found that to be much more rewarding than chasing a score. Some of my training undoubtably costs me points in IPO lol


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## Jon Harris

Some one said I must think there is a difference. Yes I do. I think it is the thinking part that i notice the most. And you are correct, if you consider the dog thinking about what is going on and what to do then you have to think alot more about training for the thinking dog , OOOO That sounds like a book " Training for the Thinking Dog"

Anyway. I see the mals in our training and they are good and focused. Normally in the right direction but sometimes that can not be the case.
The GSDs are the same but it just seems easier to me to figure out what is going on with the GSD and adjust what Im doing to get the dog to understand what I want. With the Mals. the training is pretty much the same all the time. With a thinking GSDs I find, and maybe it is just me, that I have to adjust more to the dog to get things going in the right direction.


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## Christopher Smith

Hunter Allred said:


> First, I've got nothing against mals. I like mal's. I'm not bashing mal's. I just think the only way to keep mals like they are now or improve, is to hide them from the masses.
> 
> As to my bitch.... She should act like what GSD? the current showline? the average working line? This GSD?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are so so many hugely different GSDs that the statement "act like a GSD" has no real meaning. Is she faulty to the breed standard b/c she doesn't suck? Or are you trying to subtly say "what you *really* want, is a mal... abandon GSDs and come to the dark side" lol. Honestly, I get that a lot.
> 
> If I'm not happy with the average GSD, then breeding a GSD I like is counter productive to the breed somehow?... thats the whole point of selective breeding. I didn't have anything to do with the SV, showlines, stupid breedings, or commitment to IPO... I decided not to have mine SV rated b/c I don't care, I don't own showlines, and I train in every venue I have available to me... if anything I have a distaste for IPO. I can't do anything about what happened before my time, but I can do something about course correction now, if only by starting my own bloodline of what I want in the dogs. Guess what, the breeding of my female next year, my first breeding ever, is entirely spoken for! One guy is a police handler with... rut roh... two mali's lol.
> 
> Its certainly not delusion... most common people have heard of a belgian malinois though most have no idea what they look like or how they are (infact more people in public ask if my sable 90lb male GSD is a belgian malinois than ask if he's a GSD... all they know is he is "K9 looking" and doesn't fit their mental picture of a GSD), and with shows like Alpha Dogs, seeing them on cop shows, etc, the masses will begin with "ooooooooo... i want one of those!". They'll get one, say its incorrigible, get rid of it, and someone will see a business opportunity & market and fill the demand... then there will be mal's that are a nothing like nice working mals of today. One woman in my neighborhood has a mal... never worked, never had a dog before, somehow got it from a breeder as part of a business deal through their catering business. I couldn't convince her to give any sort of training a try after she told me about how "hyper" he was around the house... it begins... slippery slope. When I start seeing mal's at the Petsmart puppy classes I'll know the floodgates have opened.
> 
> DDR GSDs were nice when the wall fell because they were insulated from the stupidity of the common man plain and simple. "DDR" dogs today aren't what they were a mere 30 years ago b/c of that exposure to the common man's need to cash in.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Mal is already split into working lines and showlines yes? Google the showlines and you see people saying "the showlines are more stable temperaments and can make good family dogs". Its not hard to see what will happen when Joe Shmo reads that.



I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue. First off *ALL* GSDs bred to the SV standard are show dogs. To get breeding certification the dog must have a show rating. So even if you personally reject the the SV system, your dog is still a show dog because of his lineage. This need for a show rating ties your dog to a beauty standard that has no bearing on working ability. All SV GSDs are weighted down by beauty requirements. This is like putting ankle weights on a drowning man. 

The Malinois has no breed testing for the most part. They are bred, in most cases, strictly for the work. The US MWD program breeds Malinois. One of their top stud dogs has a floppy ear. Now this floppy eared dog is out there producing useful working dogs. This could never happen under the SV system. A GSD with the best working ability and health in the world will be culled from breeding because of this cosmetic fault. 

And yes there are Malinois show dogs. They are as old as the working line dogs. But they are kept separate. I only know of one Malinois club (DMC) in the world that requires a breed test/show rating. And even that club will certify a Malinois for breeding that has disqualifying faults and no FCI papers if the dog works good enough. How many times do you see working Malinois breeder using Malinois show lines?

I don't think it matters if a breed is popular. If every single house on my block had one it would not affect the good breeders. Let people get watered down version of Malinois and pretend that they have the real thing. I don't care. It will never affect what I have in my yard. Back to a car analogy. If I go out and get a 67' Shelby fastback I don't care if my neighbor gets a 67' Fastback 289. There is no way that my car is going to catch the cooties and get slower because they are both Mustang Fastbacks. One does not affect the other. 

You can't protect a breed from the general public. I got my first Rottweiler in 1979. I watched the breeders try to protect the breed with buyer screening and high prices and it didn't work. It has never worked with any breed. All it does is increase the demand. People always want what people tell them is so special that they can't have it. So why should Malinois people repeat the same mistakes?


----------



## Matt Vandart

Christopher Smith said:


> I don't think it matters if a breed is popular. If every single house on my block had one it would not affect the good breeders. Let people get watered down version of Malinois and pretend that they have the real thing. I don't care. It will never affect what I have in my yard. Back to a car analogy. If I go out and get a 67' Shelby fastback I don't care if my neighbor gets a 67' Fastback 289. There is no way that my car is going to catch the cooties and get slower because they are both Mustang Fastbacks. One does not affect the other.


Problem with this, is this is what happened to the doberman. With show idiots, comes disease, simple as that, they are (generally) feckin idiots.
The disease WILL get into the working lines, IMO.
Ironically one of the worse things that can happen to a breed is you start getting bad random dog bites of joe public, strangely for not the obvious reason. Then the complete idiots all want one and shit goes bad.


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Smith said:


> I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue. First off *ALL* GSDs bred to the SV standard are show dogs. To get breeding certification the dog must have a show rating. So even if you personally reject the the SV system, your dog is still a show dog because of his lineage. This need for a show rating ties your dog to a beauty standard that has no bearing on working ability. All SV GSDs are weighted down by beauty requirements. This is like putting ankle weights on a drowning man.
> 
> The Malinois has no breed testing for the most part. They are bred, in most cases, strictly for the work. The US MWD program breeds Malinois. One of their top stud dogs has a floppy ear. Now this floppy eared dog is out there producing useful working dogs. This could never happen under the SV system. A GSD with the best working ability and health in the world will be culled from breeding because of this cosmetic fault.


Wait a second... if a dog is judged by a third party based on conformation to the breed standard, health checks such as hip/elbow ratings & endurance tests (AD), temperament testing (the protection phase of the breed survey), and is required to show up with at least an IPO1 testing a wide range of aspects of the dog (never mind the flaws of IPO, the idea is sound), that makes it a show dog? What, besides a third party judging it and conformation to a physical appearance, makes that any different than what a good don't know-don't-care-what-its-mixed-with working dog breeder? I assume they are still testing temperament and health yes? The adherence to a breed standard is what makes it GSD breeding, or Malinois breeding...

I agree with the SV's approach in theory, just not pleased with the execution.

The *only* reason a breed, any breed, has any problem (health/conformation/workability/etc) is because the breeders did not factor that aspect into the breeding decisions they make... period end of story. Diseases won't magically appear in working GSDs b/c show dogs exist... most don't cross bloodlines first of all, and selecting against undesirable traits eliminates them over time... don't care if the trait is a horrible grip, long hair, floppy ears, too big/too small, degenerative disease, etc.



Christopher Smith said:


> And yes there are Malinois show dogs. They are as old as the working line dogs. But they are kept separate. I only know of one Malinois club (DMC) in the world that requires a breed test/show rating. And even that club will certify a Malinois for breeding that has disqualifying faults and no FCI papers if the dog works good enough. How many times do you see working Malinois breeder using Malinois show lines?





Christopher Smith said:


> I don't think it matters if a breed is popular. If every single house on my block had one it would not affect the good breeders. Let people get watered down version of Malinois and pretend that they have the real thing. I don't care. It will never affect what I have in my yard. Back to a car analogy. If I go out and get a 67' Shelby fastback I don't care if my neighbor gets a 67' Fastback 289. There is no way that my car is going to catch the cooties and get slower because they are both Mustang Fastbacks. One does not affect the other.


There are several houses one my block that have watered down versions of GSDs and pretend that they have the real thing... I don't care. It will never affect what I have in my yard either. The existence of nervy unstable showline dogs doesn't change the dogs I have or will have in the future. I don't source dogs from that stock. Popularity of a breed makes finding the good breeders harder... the best dogs won't become bad, but the average dog's quality will decline. 



Christopher Smith said:


> You can't protect a breed from the general public. I got my first Rottweiler in 1979. I watched the breeders try to protect the breed with buyer screening and high prices and it didn't work. It has never worked with any breed. All it does is increase the demand. People always want what people tell them is so special that they can't have it. So why should Malinois people repeat the same mistakes?


I agree, you can't. Its inevitable. I wasn't saying you could... however slowing the inevitable is not a waste of effort. If you are diagnosed with an aggressive cancer, unless something else gets you first its basically inevitable you will die of cancer... maybe quickly, or maybe you have decades of remission... "Remission is the state of absence of disease activity in patients known to have a chronic illness that cannot be cured." Its still a worthy effort to do what you can. I don't view fighting a losing battle as a mistake.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Matt Vandart said:


> Problem with this, is this is what happened to the doberman. With show idiots, comes disease, simple as that, they are (generally) feckin idiots.
> The disease WILL get into the working lines, IMO.
> Ironically one of the worse things that can happen to a breed is you start getting bad random dog bites of joe public, strangely for not the obvious reason. Then the complete idiots all want one and shit goes bad.


The disease will only get into working lines if working breeders don't recognize and breed against disease causing genetics... that is absolute.

If breeders write down the attributes that they factor into their breeding decisions, we can conclude that any attributes not on that list are simply left to the chaos of mutation and genetic drift... we cannot conclude they will get worse, or better... we can only conclude that we cannot project what those attributes will become.


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## Jennifer Andress

Christopher Smith said:


> How many times do you see working Malinois breeder using Malinois show lines?


I have not seen any working Mal breeders using show lines, but I have seen a fair number of show Mal breeders going back to working lines, which is not something I've seen a lot of in GSDs.

I spent a while looking at show/AKC performance-oriented Mal breeders because my current Holy Grail is to find either a GSD with the athleticism of a Mal, or a Mal with the calmer, "thinkier" personality of a GSD, and I thought maybe if the show lines are supposed to be calmer, then that might be worth considering for my purposes. I ended up mostly giving up on this quest when I couldn't find any show breeders whose dogs were doing bitesports, but I did spend a while looking.

Anyway, from what I could tell over a few months of looking, the show Mal breeders are making an effort to keep some working ability in the lines. I'm not going to argue about whether that's a good thing or not -- I don't have any idea, frankly, being a total novice to the breed -- but it does stand as an interesting point of contrast to some of the other working breeds where the show people don't even pretend anymore.


----------



## Matt Vandart

I know of one working line breeder that put a bit of show blood in his line to add some conformation. Also I have met quite a few mellow 'thinking' mals here in the UK.


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> Problem with this, is this is what happened to the doberman. With show idiots, comes disease, simple as that, they are (generally) feckin idiots.
> The disease WILL get into the working lines, IMO.


Dobermans are bred the same way as GSDs. THEY ARE ALL SHOW DOGS!!!!!!!

The show people have been around in Malinois for 100 years and it has not happened yet. But by what mechanism will disease get into the working line Malinois? Please explain to me exactly how this will happen?


----------



## Hunter Allred

Christopher Smith said:


> Dobermans are bred the same way as GSDs. THEY ARE ALL SHOW DOGS!!!!!!!
> 
> The show people have been around in Malinois for 100 years and it has not happened yet. But by what mechanism will disease get into the working line Malinois? Please explain to me exactly how this will happen?


I just did


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Smith said:


> Dobermans are bred the same way as GSDs. THEY ARE ALL SHOW DOGS!!!!!!!
> 
> The show people have been around in Malinois for 100 years and it has not happened yet. But by what mechanism will disease get into the working line Malinois? Please explain to me exactly how this will happen?


If you define show dogs, as any dog required to be evaluated by a third party to the breed spec before breeding in Germany, then sure. If you mean primarily bred for appearance, then no. Working lines gsds are bred for working.


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## Jim Engel

Not only are the German Shepherds in Germany completely under the thumb of the SV show dog establishment, USCA is being converted into an extension of the SV, which means the largest theoretically working dog organization in America is becoming little more than a sales subsidiary for the German show breeders.

Every time someone signs another $100 check for USCA membership, the people ultimately controlling those funds are SV show breeders, and they are being spent to promote show line GSD sales.

My understanding is that every GSD being registered in Germany must still pass the conformation evaluation. Also apparently in France, which is one of the minor reasons for the failure in French ring.

I think that GSD breeders in Holland, the Czech republic, Belgium etc can register any dog out of registered parents, which means a lot of the strong breeding is going on in these countries.


Americans need to put on some big boy pants and control their own fate and organizations.


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## Hunter Allred

Jim Engel said:


> Not only are the German Shepherds in Germany completely under the thumb of the SV show dog establishment, USCA is being converted into an extension of the SV, which means the largest theoretically working dog organization in America is becoming little more than a sales subsidiary for the German show breeders.
> 
> Every time someone signs another $100 check for USCA membership, the people ultimately controlling those funds are SV show breeders, and they are being spent to promote show line GSD sales.
> 
> My understanding is that every GSD being registered in Germany must still pass the conformation evaluation. Also apparently in France, which is one of the minor reasons for the failure in French ring.
> 
> I think that GSD breeders in Holland, the Czech republic, Belgium etc can register any dog out of registered parents, which means a lot of the strong breeding is going on in these countries.
> 
> 
> Americans need to put on some big boy pants and control their own fate and organizations.


The same for the states... if I have two registered GSDs, what comes out is a register-able GSD. People only do the KKL and conformation rating for marketing. Thats a double edged sword though... breeders are free to have *awesome* breedings, and "breeders" are free to pump out P.O.S.'s that don't make good show, working, or pet dogs... Same concept applies to the policy of a "closed studbook"


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## Jim Engel

Hunter, 
you are certainly correct, in principle the USA breeders have a lot more freedom compared to the people in Germany, where you can only get registration through the SV and thus only produce puppies eligible for any FCI IPO event with SV blessing. The SV locks you out, you are out.

The time may come when this makes a difference, but right now USCA is so completely under the control of SV show breeders that it makes little practical difference.


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## Hunter Allred

Jim Engel said:


> Hunter,
> you are certainly correct, in principle the USA breeders have a lot more freedom compared to the people in Germany, where you can only get registration through the SV and thus only produce puppies eligible for any FCI IPO event with SV blessing. The SV locks you out, you are out.
> 
> The time may come when this makes a difference, but right now USCA is so completely under the control of SV show breeders that it makes little practical difference.


So obviously I'm a USCA certified helper (because I'm at a USCA club... no loyalty to any group), but how can the SV show breeders effect me? Honest question.


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## Jim Engel

Hunter Allred said:


> So obviously I'm a USCA certified helper (because I'm at a USCA club... no loyalty to any group), but how can the SV show breeders effect me? Honest question.


Every time you pay your $100 dues to USCA a big chunk of it goes to support
the efforts to build up the show system under SV pressure. USCA is being
converted into a show dog organization, which what it was started to get
around in the first place.

Longer version:
http://www.angelplace.net/usca/SV Empire.pdf

More information:
http://www.angelplace.net/usca/


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## Hunter Allred

Jim Engel said:


> Every time you pay your $100 dues to USCA a big chunk of it goes to support
> the efforts to build up the show system under SV pressure. USCA is being
> converted into a show dog organization, which what it was started to get
> around in the first place.
> 
> Longer version:
> http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch17.pdf
> 
> Roll down to the section "SV Empire Builders."


I read a big chunk, but having just got home with a dog shoving a 3 foot high dragon in my lap... could you give me a few bullet points as to what SV show breeders can do that I will not like? Understand also... I can leave UScA, but that means I cannot continue membership at my club, nor trial there... thats a bit of an issue


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## Erik Berg

Taking over is a strong word, this is not so in all countries, but the malinois surely has become an alternative to the GSD, but policework also differ between countries and I guess the number of breeders of each breed.

Isn´t also belgium and czech GSDs in need of a conformation rating, even if they aren´t the german dogs are and they are used in many countries. 

I´m not sure how much the conformation rules in germany are affecting the breed there, but just because someone is breeding "workingdogs" that do IPO it´s not necessarily the best dogs for LE. In fact it seems like many pay far much attention to looks and rather mediocre dogs, the structural changes to more showlooking in many german working GSDs is a proof of that I guess. But there are also good dogs from german lines so I´m not sure if we can blame either IPO or their conformationrules for that. The picture is from a militartydog from 1935, this type is rather different comapred to what you see in many workinglines today.

Personnaly I don´t think we need conformationrules for GSDs, it seems like it has not done much for preserving the structure that was more common in older times. Here in sweden we don´t need them, the majority of dogs breed are not having hanging ears or looking like a total different breed anyway. The picture is a militaryog from 1935, quite different compared to many GSDs today, but if such dogs are OK to breed also today in germany I guess the conformationrules may not be the main issue.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> Dobermans are bred the same way as GSDs. THEY ARE ALL SHOW DOGS!!!!!!!
> 
> The show people have been around in Malinois for 100 years and it has not happened yet. But by what mechanism will disease get into the working line Malinois? Please explain to me exactly how this will happen?


Disease is already in working line Malinois.

T


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## Hunter Allred

Erik Berg said:


> Taking over is a strong word, this is not so in all countries, but the malinois surely has become an alternative to the GSD, but policework also differ between countries and I guess the number of breeders of each breed.
> 
> Isn´t also belgium and czech GSDs in need of a conformation rating, even if they aren´t the german dogs are and they are used in many countries.
> 
> I´m not sure how much the conformation rules in germany are affecting the breed there, but just because someone is breeding "workingdogs" that do IPO it´s not necessarily the best dogs for LE. In fact it seems like many pay far much attention to looks and rather mediocre dogs, the structural changes to more showlooking in many german working GSDs is a proof of that I guess. But there are also good dogs from german lines so I´m not sure if we can blame either IPO or their conformationrules for that. The picture is from a militartydog from 1935, this type is rather different comapred to what you see in many workinglines today.
> 
> Personnaly I don´t think we need conformationrules for GSDs, it seems like it has not done much for preserving the structure that was more common in older times. Here in sweden we don´t need them, the majority of dogs breed are not having hanging ears or looking like a total different breed anyway.


all breeds need comformation rules... thats what makes it a breed.. because it comforms lol. 

many breeders outside of germany get ratings, but are not required to. IPO titles are nice and all, but I probably wouldn't source a puppy unless there were strong military/police service dogs near in the pedigree, or unless I was otherwise convinced of their real world working ability.


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## Jim Engel

Perhaps the best way to look at is how come after 110 years of SV support for the German Shepherd, when Germany wins the FCI IPO championship a couple of years ago, every member of that winning German team was a Malinois?


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## Erik Berg

Why do they need it, I guess most can see if the dog is a GSD or not anyway, despite the conformationrules a GSD have in many cases changed in structure quite much over time, even more so compared to lines/countrties where conformation is less regulated.


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## Hunter Allred

Jim Engel said:


> Perhaps the best way to look at is how come after 110 years of SV support for the German Shepherd, when Germany wins the FCI IPO championship a couple of years ago, every member of that winning German team was a Malinois?


I think its a popularity thing... Joe Shmo wants Rin-Tin-Tin, but doesn't want a working dog... businessmen fill in the demand. The average GSD is what it is now. I don't agree with it, but I don't support those breeders with my money. The more realistic approach to me seems to try to change the UScA, rather than bail all together.


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## Hunter Allred

Erik Berg said:


> Why do they need it, I guess most can see if the dog is a GSD or not anyway, despite the conformationrules a GSD have in many cases changed in structure quite much over time, even more so compared to lines/countrties where conformation is less regulated.


B/c people demand proof that if they pay for a GSD/Lab/Yorkie, they get a GSD/Lab/Yorkie. Those that only care if it looks/acts/smells like one don't care about that proof... I'm not saying they haven't screwed up the interpretation of the breed spec over time, and no one can deny the dog pic i posted earlier doesn't look anything like a modern showline champion (or probably act).

Thats like saying "why does this job require a computer science degree? I'm very good with computers"... if I've got time to verify that myself, i'll hire you. however the degree'd applicant is far less risk of turning out to be a skilless idiot if I can't discover the proof myself


----------



## Jim Engel

Hunter Allred said:


> I think its a popularity thing... Joe Shmo wants Rin-Tin-Tin, but doesn't want a working dog... businessmen fill in the demand. The average GSD is what it is now. I don't agree with it, but I don't support those breeders with my money. The more realistic approach to me seems to try to change the UScA, rather than bail all together.


I agree that current USCA leadership, which pretty much believes the things that I do, is honest and committed, are good people. But they are working under enormous pressure from the SV to join the mother country in corruption of the GSD. Yes, by all means, those with a GSD should support the current USCA leadership to withstand and throw off the influence of the SV.

As for supporting "those breeders" with your money, every time you pay USCA dues big chunks of that money goes to support "those breeders."


----------



## Christopher Smith

Hunter Allred said:


> If you define show dogs, as any dog required to be evaluated by a third party to the breed spec before breeding in Germany, then sure. If you mean primarily bred for appearance, then no. Working lines gsds are bred for working.


I define showdogs as any dog that is shown in a show ring. And all dogs that get a GSD breed test from any country must first have a conformation rating.

It is becoming obvious that you don't know what the basic rules are for your own breed club. I don't have the time to go back and forth with you on this. I tap out.


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Smith said:


> I define showdogs as any dog that is shown in a show ring. And all dogs that get a GSD breed test from any country must first have a conformation rating.
> 
> It is becoming obvious that you don't know what the basic rules are for your own breed club. I don't have the time to go back and forth with you on this. I tap out.


to breed registered GSDs in America, no confirmation rating is required. I don't really care about other countries. All I require is 2 (two) GSDs registered with the registry I want the registered puppies to be registered with. I don't have to enter a show ring... I don't have to have an German judge tell me my dog is good, bad, or wunderbar, I don't have to title in any sport


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## Jennifer Andress

Matt Vandart said:


> Also I have met quite a few mellow 'thinking' mals here in the UK.


Do they still show the potential to do flashy obedience and can they still do bitework?

Because if the answers to both those questions are "yes," I'd surely like to know who bred them. I'd doubly appreciate learning about anyone you know of who might be producing similar dogs in the U.S.

I'm not looking to get a pup for another few years (or I'd just make a thread asking for recommendations), but it's never too early to start looking out for particular breeders' dogs. Sometimes it takes a while before I get the chance to see one.


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## Erik Berg

Hunter Allred said:


> B/c people demand proof that if they pay for a GSD/Lab/Yorkie, they get a GSD/Lab/Yorkie. Those that only care if it looks/acts/smells like one don't care about that proof... I'm not saying they haven't screwed up the interpretation of the breed spec over time, and no one can deny the dog pic i posted earlier doesn't look anything like a modern showline champion (or probably act).
> 
> Thats like saying "why does this job require a computer science degree? I'm very good with computers"... if I've got time to verify that myself, i'll hire you. however the degree'd applicant is far less risk of turning out to be a skilless idiot if I can't discover the proof myself


You don´t need to enter a show to register a litter and get a pedigree, some other stuff thou but no demands of conformationratings, this policedog was used quite much, he had no showratings but it´s not hard to see it´s a GSD,

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=561552-bruksmarkens-monark


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## Hunter Allred

Erik Berg said:


> You don´t need to enter a show to register a litter and get a pedigree, some other stuff thou but no demands of conformationratings, this policedog was used quite much, he had no showratings but it´s not hard to see it´s a GSD,
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=561552-bruksmarkens-monark


I don't disagree... I'm just saying why they exist.


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## Ben Thompson

Jim Engel said:


> I agree that current USCA leadership, which pretty much believes the things that I do, is honest and committed, are good people. But they are working under enormous pressure from the SV to join the mother country in corruption of the GSD. Yes, by all means, those with a GSD should support the current USCA leadership to withstand and throw off the influence of the SV.
> 
> As for supporting "those breeders" with your money, every time you pay USCA dues big chunks of that money goes to support "those breeders."


 Do you think WORKING line GSD went down hill? Or is it that peoples standards of what a good dog is changed? People want more over the top dogs instead of jack of all trades kind of dogs. 

I ask because I saw a video of WWII era dogs in Europe and they did not seem any better to me. 

One can fail dogs left and right and be moving backwards as fast as one who passes every dog. There has to be proper discrimination and judgement when looking at dogs working ability.


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## Hunter Allred

Ben Thompson said:


> Do you think WORKING line GSD went down hill? Or is it that peoples standards of what a good dog is changed? People want more over the top dogs instead of jack of all trades kind of dogs.
> 
> I ask because I saw a video of WWII era dogs in Europe and they did not seem any better to me.
> 
> One can fail dogs left and right and be moving backwards as fast as one who passes every dog. There has to be proper discrimination and judgement when looking at dogs working ability.


Its that people don't agree on what a good dog is... there are a ton of definitions of what a "good GSD" is, and many are in conflict with eachother


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## Jim Engel

For over a century, the GSD was the best dog in Schutzhund / IPO at the highest level,
in a venue created by the SV for the GSD.

Today, the Malinois constantly predominates over the GSD in their own venue.

And every other protection venue such as KNPV and Ring.

Either the GSD has diminished in potential, or the Malinois was always 
superior and just not yet on the field.

There really is no other way to explain it.

You can not state it any more simply.


----------



## Jon Harris

wasn't this about mals becoming more prevalent with law enforcement?

I thought I was normally the one that took the thread off into the wild blue yonder.


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## Bob Scott

Matt Vandart said:


> Problem with this, is this is what happened to the doberman. With show idiots, comes disease, simple as that, they are (generally) feckin idiots.
> The disease WILL get into the working lines, IMO.
> Ironically one of the worse things that can happen to a breed is you start getting bad random dog bites of joe public, strangely for not the obvious reason. Then the complete idiots all want one and shit goes bad.



The working line Dobes, what there are of them, also have the heart problems, the Von whatever bleeders disease, etc.
both working and show line GSDs have bad hips, EPI, bad backs, etc.

I believe that ANY breed can have problems from breeding to a show dog be it Crufts/Westminister or the BSP. 
I hate the looks of most show line GSDs yet one of my working line Czech/W German working line dogs has both Moderate HD and EPI. 
I've also had two Mals and didn't keep either one more then 5-6 months because of environmental issues. 
When my GSDs are past I may very well go back to the crazy little bassid terriers. Most live to 15-16-18 yrs and are still full of them selves.


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## Hunter Allred

Bob Scott said:


> The working line Dobes, what there are of them, also have the heart problems, the Von whatever bleeders disease, etc.
> both working and show line GSDs have bad hips, EPI, bad backs, etc.
> 
> I believe that ANY breed can have problems from breeding to a show dog be it Crufts/Westminister or the BSP.
> I hate the looks of most show line GSDs yet one of my working line Czech/W German working line dogs has both Moderate HD and EPI.
> I've also had two Mals and didn't keep either one more then 5-6 months because of environmental issues.
> When my GSDs are past I may very well go back to the crazy little bassid terriers. Most live to 15-16-18 yrs and are still full of them selves.


I think its more correct to say, any breed can have problems from breeding to a dog, regardless of titles, championships, or how much they love them, if they have an underlying genetically caused problem.

I think the HD issue is starting to get under control... regardless though, there will *always* be new problems to solve. Genes mutate. Sometimes in ways that are obvious at birth. Sometimes in ways that aren't detectable until you've bred that dog 100 times because he was the regional/national/world champion in whatever... thats just the way it is. Genetic drift. It has its pro's and its con's, but without it life would not exist and we'd never progress beyond single cell bacteria in primordial soup.


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## James Downey

Here's another thing that's always helped GSDs get better. Wishing the demise of the Malinois.


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## Christopher Smith

Jim Engel said:


> For over a century, the GSD was the best dog in Schutzhund / IPO at the highest level,
> in a venue created by the SV for the GSD.
> 
> Today, the Malinois constantly predominates over the GSD in their own venue.
> 
> And every other protection venue such as KNPV and Ring.
> 
> Either the GSD has diminished in potential, or the Malinois was always
> superior and just not yet on the field.
> 
> There really is no other way to explain it.
> 
> You can not state it any more simply.


It's not just protection venues, it's *ALL* venues. Well...except the show ring. :razz:


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## Christopher Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> I love how delusional GSD people are on this subject. Popularity is not what screwed up the GSD. It was stupid breeding practices,shackleing yourselves to the showlines, following the SV and making schutzhund the only sport the breed does.
> 
> And if they think people are paying your GSD a compliment, by saying she is like a malinois, you are not helping the siuation. A GSD should act like a GSD.
> 
> Do any of the other Malinois folks here remember back 15-20 years ago when the GSD folks were calling the Malinois a fad? HA! Good times....
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Too true. And if you remember back 20 years ago Malis were stereotyped as nervy, small, hectic, poor shallow grips, cant track. I can honestly say over the years the Mali breeders have improved the quality and consistancy of their breed. I am not sure the same can be said of the GSD.


----------



## Hunter Allred

yeah yeah... I get it... if its not a mal/dutchie, its shit, and you're not open to debate lol

You know... experience buys you knowledge, but the sacrifice for that knowledge is it closes the mind. You know why forced retrieves and such still exist? b/c "This works, I know what I'm doing, I've trained 2 billion dogs this way, and you don't know shit"... thats why.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Christopher Jones said:


> Too true. And if you remember back 20 years ago Malis were stereotyped as nervy, small, hectic, poor shallow grips, cant track. I can honestly say over the years the Mali breeders have improved the quality and consistancy of their breed. I am not sure the same can be said of the GSD.


you're comparing a breed that is virtually unknown in the public eye, to the third most popular breed period... cut that down to working line breeders and of course they have improved the quality and consistency of GSDs lol.


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## Jon Harris

wow 2 billion dogs
sounds like Mc Dog lds


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## rick smith

thought this would be over quickly

sure wish more LEO's would answer posts that are directed specifically at them ... i thought we had a lot on this forum, so i thought this post would get resolved rather quickly, rather than morph into the usual multi page breed debate

i'll answer for the K9 LEO's in Japan
answer is no, not yet 

for those LEO's who did answer
Thanx for posting


----------



## Jon Harris

thought I did 

i like the GSDs I work the GSDs, or what I think are GSDs.

Havent worked a mal. May someday but Im not there yet

Like I posted personal pref and just the way Ive seen the mal ive been in contact with, the GSDs see to fit me better


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## Christopher Smith

Hunter Allred said:


> You know why forced retrieves and such still exist?


Because guys that do forced retrieves still win.


----------



## David Winners

There is a pretty even mix of GSDs and Mals at VLK. Most those dogs come from Holland, both breeds. In working with a couple hundred of those dogs, I think there are some general personality differences the breeds. Like has been stated before, the mals are more robotic and "typical" to train. Some have minor environmental issues but I think it leads back to their fast twitch nervous system. With proper exposure they do just fine. The GSDs are slower but still very capable. They are hearty dogs that do well in a multitude of environments and situations. They think more, and are a bit slower because of it, but they are more than fast enough to do the work.

I enjoy training and working both breeds but I prefer the stereotypical WL GSD personally. In real world operations, I like the dog to consider what it's doing and provide me some feedback. The 3 letter agency operators and SF guys are primarily using mals and dutchies. They like the small size and super athletic dogs.

IMHO, you discover what you like through working with a lot of dogs. Then you find a breeder that breeds what you like. I personally don't care what the dog looks like, or what breed it is. On my short list of favorite working dogs I have ever worked are a GSD (Fama-Holland), a Mal (Griff-Holland), a Lab (Marshall-U.S. field bred) and an APBT (Taz-U.S. shelter dog).

Obviously, some of these are single purpose dogs, but what they have in common are their personality. We really clicked. They wanted to work with me, and we accomplished a lot together.

On this forum, a lot of weight is placed on bite work. I agree that it is an important thing, but IME, it's one thing we train for that rarely gets used. I'm speaking from a military standpoint here, obviously not sport. MWDs are used to search every day, but may never get a street bite. I have almost a hundred finds, and only a few bites. All of the bite situations could have been handled with more lethal means, but you can't replace an EDD with anything.

Outside the wire, I'll take a great detection dog that is part of a great team over a great patrol dog that only going through the motions during detection. I'll love bite work, but that's for me. Detection is for the soldiers following me.

That being said (and back to the OP) I've seen what I would go down range with in both breeds. The Mals look more impressive, but the data I have in finds is pretty even between the breeds. On the street, I don't care if the Mal gets to the find 2 seconds before the GSD and finals super fast and precise, as long as they both get there and respond.

David Winners


----------



## Ben Thompson

Hunter Allred said:


> Its that people don't agree on what a good dog is... there are a ton of definitions of what a "good GSD" is, and many are in conflict with eachother


 Thats closer to what I suspect it going on.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Christopher Smith said:


> Because guys that do forced retrieves still win.


Further validation of what I said lol


----------



## Erik Berg

In northern europe the GSD still dominates, the PSDs are often multipurpose and malinois hasn´t been around as long as in belgium/holland. I think it´s about 20-30% malinois used nowadays in sweden, roughly the same in finland and norway I would guess. Denmark has very little I heard from a malinois breeder there, but this is more due to old school thinking and conservative thinking, germany has about 75% malinois according to the same breeder, but I also know the police in one part of germany has their own breedingprogram of malinois.

An article about one of the bigger breeders here you can read on the link below, discuss some of their views on the GSD and their breedingprogram in general,
http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/en/events/personenseiten/kustmarken.html


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## rick smith

i have often read how LE cares a lot about health and don't care about show conformation or floppy ears etc etc ...and it has come up in this thread too
....great, but that is just PC "working line" talk ... lets get a little more specific and put some beef in the burger 

- how do they actually (and specifically) do that before they invest in a dog that is from "mean lines" besides have their dept vet take a look at it ??

just a guess, but i'll bet they don't spend to get OFA or PennHip certs or test for any genetic issues, etc. i suspect it's more like if the vender says it's healthy and they like what they see, they buy it and take their chances

- iow, "mean" lines will probably trump "healthy" lines 
- does LE tuck gsd tummies like the military often does ? i doubt that either

hope i'm wrong here LEO's ... please correct me if i am and give your dept's SOP for health checks
- overall i would think they would be more careful if buying gsd's and it is VERY often stated that mals are healthier, dna wise

i just don't see you can know much about "health" if you have no history of the lines it came from and don't spend the extra bucks to do a few specific tests, and money is always a budget issue.


----------



## Hunter Allred

rick smith said:


> i have often read how LE cares a lot about health and don't care about show conformation or floppy ears etc etc ...and it has come up in this thread too
> ....great, but that is just PC "working line" talk ... lets get a little more specific and put some beef in the burger
> 
> - how do they actually (and specifically) do that before they invest in a dog that is from "mean lines" besides have their dept vet take a look at it ??
> 
> just a guess, but i'll bet they don't spend to get OFA or PennHip certs or test for any genetic issues, etc. i suspect it's more like if the vender says it's healthy and they like what they see, they buy it and take their chances
> 
> - iow, "mean" lines will probably trump "healthy" lines
> - does LE tuck gsd tummies like the military often does ? i doubt that either
> 
> hope i'm wrong here LEO's ... please correct me if i am and give your dept's SOP for health checks
> - overall i would think they would be more careful if buying gsd's and it is VERY often stated that mals are healthier, dna wise
> 
> i just don't see you can know much about "health" if you have no history of the lines it came from and don't spend the extra bucks to do a few specific tests, and money is always a budget issue.


Disclosure: I'm speculating. Not LE, nor in the business of LE dog sales

I think if my budget was tight and I sent someone to get me a good dog (and I had no trusted vendor to go to), there is much more risk getting a GSD than a mal. I think it's obvious to get a good GSD, you (or someone) must search much harder, and because of that a GSD and Mal that are equals, the GSD will command a higher price. For that reason if money is no object, one could get either. If money is a concern, mal is the way to go.


----------



## rick smith

agree Hunter, 
but i am assuming ALL LE buyers trust their venders and only buy from "reputable" sources
- just guessing they often trust but don't verify when it comes to the health issues 

like i said; hope i'm wrong and hope they post to explain how i am


----------



## Ben Thompson

Jim Engel said:


> For over a century, the GSD was the best dog in Schutzhund / IPO at the highest level,
> in a venue created by the SV for the GSD.
> 
> Today, the Malinois constantly predominates over the GSD in their own venue.
> 
> And every other protection venue such as KNPV and Ring.
> 
> Either the GSD has diminished in potential, or the Malinois was always
> superior and just not yet on the field.
> 
> There really is no other way to explain it.
> 
> You can not state it any more simply.


I think the belgian malinois improved.... they have been around at least as long as GSD...so why the sudden popularity so late in their existance? I mean they were using dobermans more then mals at one point.... I heard mals used to have alot of nerve issues....I think there is also a element of truth about the SV....I just don't know how much they are actually guilty of.


----------



## jamie lind

Christopher Smith said:


> I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue. First off all GSDs bred to the SV standard are show dogs. To get breeding certification the dog must have a show rating. So even if you personally reject the the SV system, your dog is still a show dog because of his lineage. This need for a show rating ties your dog to a beauty standard that has no bearing on working ability. All SV GSDs are weighted down by beauty requirements. This is like putting ankle weights on a drowning man.


Using your logic all show dogs bred by the sv standard are also working dogs because they also have to have a working title. Sounds real cool, but its not reality.


----------



## Jon Harris

as for me as a leo
both my dogs were almost rescues. They looked good to me and they exrayed good so I took them
i say almost because i got them both by default. the first was a reject from global in texas. he turned out to be a real good detection dog and was with me on the road for three years before we got in that damn car accident. He is blind now because of it.

the second is a papered Czechoslovakian bred GSD and he was in bad shape when I got him thin and the breeder was on the skids. The dog had some broken teeth and he couldnt sell him for what he wanted. The teeth didnt bother me as I was wanting a single purpose detection prospect. The guy that had him just needed him to go away I think they had run out of money and had too many dogs.
I ended up trading an old school bus for him. He thought he got the better part of the deal. He didn't!

This dog also turned out to be really nice good hips certified detection dog with IPWADA in narcotics.
He is at home with my wife while Im over here on contract. I was going to use him on the road with the police department I was with but that went south for reasons that made me so disillusioned with local law enforcement that I went back to contracting.
Personally I think that deal probably ending my law enforcement career. I just dont want to be subjected to that any more but that is a different story.
Both departments I was K-9 for depended on me to find the dogs. Both departments wanted me to own the dogs. I got dogs that I liked and thought would work. They both did. Maybe I was lucky, I don;t really know but they worked out fine.


----------



## Matt Vandart

it's not because of genetic drift that there will be problems

it's because when you inbreed and linebreed you double up on all the genes which over time causes recessive genes and traits to become dominant

eg:
every human is carrying the genes for a fatal disease or illness but because they are carrying only one half of a copy, that is they are heterozygous at the most, the disease doesn't ever surface
but if you inbreed on that person who is a heterozygous carrier for disease X, you're eventually going to get some homozygous affecteds, and if it's not controlled or monitored, the percentage of affecteds will increase in the general population
eventually, when the population is closely related, there will be no alternative genes to select for and the disease will become uniform.

that's not saying that genetic drift doesn't cause problems, it does, but it would take a much longer period of time

take for example, vWD. It probably evolved because of genetic drift but the fact that it is found in 70-80% of the American Dobermann population is due to popular sire syndrome, and disregard for the control and containment of the disease. now they have very little options to get away from the disease and have to keep using affected dogs.


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> i have often read how LE cares a lot about health and don't care about show conformation or floppy ears etc etc ...and it has come up in this thread too
> ....great, but that is just PC "working line" talk ... lets get a little more specific and put some beef in the burger
> 
> - how do they actually (and specifically) do that before they invest in a dog that is from "mean lines" besides have their dept vet take a look at it ??
> 
> just a guess, but i'll bet they don't spend to get OFA or PennHip certs or test for any genetic issues, etc. i suspect it's more like if the vender says it's healthy and they like what they see, they buy it and take their chances
> 
> - iow, "mean" lines will probably trump "healthy" lines
> - does LE tuck gsd tummies like the military often does ? i doubt that either
> 
> hope i'm wrong here LEO's ... please correct me if i am and give your dept's SOP for health checks
> - overall i would think they would be more careful if buying gsd's and it is VERY often stated that mals are healthier, dna wise
> 
> i just don't see you can know much about "health" if you have no history of the lines it came from and don't spend the extra bucks to do a few specific tests, and money is always a budget issue.


there are a certain % that will get hips elbows and backs xrayed before purchase, others trust the vendors xrays, word, and guarantees.

I dont know anyone personally that buys dogs without seeing xrays that they trust, that are backed up by stiff guarantees, or without getting them done themselves before or shortly after purchase.

any vendor wanting to stay in business will not lie about status of xrays...

anyone with 1/2 a brain is going to at least get those xrays before shelling out 1000's of dollars, or making sure that when they do xray, if it turns up bad, they can get replacement or refund...

few % of LE dogs get bred. state property and all...the health is determined by the longevity on the job. 

deals and freebies and chance takers aside this is


----------



## Jim Engel

Ben Thompson said:


> I think the belgian malinois improved.... they have been around at least as long as GSD...so why the sudden popularity so late in their existance? I mean they were using dobermans more then mals at one point.... I heard mals used to have alot of nerve issues....I think there is also a element of truth about the SV....I just don't know how much they are actually guilty of.


Ben,
"Sudden popularity" is a matter of perspective.

A little Malinois History:

http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch7.pdf


There is also a corresponding long history in the Dutch and French chapters


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## Jon Harris

I guess I was one of those deals, freebies and chance takers.


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## Joby Becker

Jon Harris said:


> I guess I was one of those deals, freebies and chance takers.


nothing wrong with that in my eyes, I get dogs in those situations, I still usually will xray the dog first. But I have dealt in breeds with high % rate for HD..

"Slow Moe" is damn near a year, have not xrayed yet...probably should be..


----------



## Jon Harris

over in the video section as i dont want to hijack this thread
is a vid of tito the one i traded a bus for.

also he is registered GSD but looks nothing like my others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWk70oYrO_I


----------



## Ben Thompson

Jim Engel said:


> Ben,
> "Sudden popularity" is a matter of perspective.
> 
> A little Malinois History:
> 
> http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch7.pdf
> 
> 
> There is also a corresponding long history in the Dutch and French chapters


I don't think GSD were like Malinoiis at any point really. Popularity on a larger scale was what I meant.


----------



## Ben Thompson

I think todays working GSD are better then the ones in this video from the 80's? I don't know the exact year...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVDAUk1SnBA


----------



## Christopher Smith

jamie lind said:


> Using your logic all show dogs bred by the sv standard are also working dogs because they also have to have a working title. Sounds real cool, but its not reality.


Yes you got it, my logic is constant. The showline dogs are all working dogs. They are just more compromised by showing than the workingline. HA! Made you learn!:razz:


----------



## Christopher Smith

Ben Thompson said:


> I think todays working GSD are better then the ones in this video from the 80's?


How do you know it's not the training that got better?


----------



## Joby Becker

Jon Harris said:


> over in the video section as i dont want to hijack this thread
> is a vid of tito the one i traded a bus for.
> 
> also he is registered GSD but looks nothing like my others
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWk70oYrO_I


awesome.. 

got a couple short buses over here for sale right now  (seriously)


----------



## jamie lind

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes you got it, my logic is constant. The showline dogs are all working dogs. They are just more compromised by showing than the workingline. HA! Made you learn!:razz:


Why yes, I think you did. I just don't think it's what you think you taught me.


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## Christopher Smith

jamie lind said:


> Why yes, I think you did. I just don't think it's what you think you taught me.


I'm not trying to win the internets and I don't care what you learn. I just want you to learn. Maybe one day you might learn enough that you can make a convincing argument why I'm wrong. Maybe you can make me learn. ;-)


----------



## Hunter Allred

Christopher Smith said:


> I'm not trying to win the internets and I don't care what you learn. I just want you to learn. Maybe one day you might learn enough that you can make a convincing argument why I'm wrong. Maybe you can make me learn. ;-)


Remember what I said about experience, and open minds... No one can make you learn. They can, at best, help you learn. The difference being, only you can make you learn.


----------



## James Downey

I think we are probably witnessing right now the most unproductive thing that plagues our working dog. And it's a nasty virus. None of this arguing about the current state of the GSD and trying to prove the reason for that state or trying to predict the reason that will be the Malinois demise does anything to forward the usefulness of our working dogs. 

As a Malinois guy, I like my breed. Do I hope for a long and strong reign, you bet I do. But I think a lot of Malinois people bask in enjoyment seeing the current state of the GSD. I know very little about shepherds...But I do see that most GSD people admit that the state of the GSD is not at standard that they would like to see. Now, I do also see a staggering amount of people wishing for the demise of the Malinois, trying to predict what will be it's downfall....How does this help anyone? how does it help the GSD? If the Malinois does start to fall in it's workability, health, or temperment... That does not magically make the GSD any better. On the flip side, I do see a lot of Malinois folks basking in the Malinois success as a working dog. look down their nose at their GSD as a breed. I ask the same question...how does that help the Malinois? It does not. Shoot, I hope for the GSD, I hope they find the solutions they are looking for. I mean if the Malinois is that great?.. As Malinois people we should have nothing to worry about if the GSD starts to meet the working GSD communities standards. And frankly, it's none of my business on how to fix the GSD or what caused the current state. I guess it's useful information for us Malinois folks to know what pit falls to avoid...and I think we are doing that. But I would like to see the GSD become a better working dog. I would love to see the Animosity between the two communities be reduced. I think it would be good for the dogs. I have seen in my 10 year tenure as a working dog person, the breeds become more and more elite from one another. I see an increasing amount of resentment toward one another....and that's about the worst virus our communities can have. It has stemmed all kinds of disease in my sport. From rule changes, to political movements, to just plain ol' shit talking at draw night at trials. It's childish and ridiculous.


----------



## Bob Scott

Christopher Smith said:


> How do you know it's not the training that got better?


+1


Comparing dogs of today when looking at training would make the dogs of the 30s - 40s - 50s look lame. This is the era of "back when the GSD was great". 

If there is one issue that makes our dogs less then what they once were I would say it's the inability/unwillingness to cull in order to keep the good dogs going. JMHO!
Over the years I've had a number of different breeds. I've never bred a litter simply because of the responsibilities I believe are needed to keep the dogs at a high level of performance.


----------



## Jon Harris

as far as im concerned, I just want a good dog. In my line of work that means one that will find what he is trained for. I dont care if its a Mali or GSD. Ive stated I prefer GSD but I have no reason really other than I prefer them. As to competition between the breeds, it really dose not come into play where Im at. The best thing would be for both breeds to simply get better. The best thing is to work as working dog folks and not breed specific folks. 

Almost sounds like that great scholar whose words will live on forever, " can't we just all get along?" 

caveat im not a breeder, im only a handler. in my current job i dont ever really get to pick the dog i work It is assigned. I do get to voice preference and they try to fill that if that is available and my preference is GSD but Im sure Ill work a Mali in the future


----------



## jamie lind

I've changed my mind. I think I'm never going to get a breed survey on my dog. I don't want it to turn into a show dog. Next I'm going to find a floppy eared dog to breed it to. That should improve its working quality. If that doesn't work ill buy a mal from you Christopher. Thanks I learned alot.


----------



## Matt Vandart

James Downey said:


> I think we are probably witnessing right now the most unproductive thing that plagues our working dog. And it's a nasty virus. None of this arguing about the current state of the GSD and trying to prove the reason for that state or trying to predict the reason that will be the Malinois demise does anything to forward the usefulness of our working dogs.
> 
> As a Malinois guy, I like my breed. Do I hope for a long and strong reign, you bet I do. But I think a lot of Malinois people bask in enjoyment seeing the current state of the GSD. I know very little about shepherds...But I do see that most GSD people admit that the state of the GSD is not at standard that they would like to see. Now, I do also see a staggering amount of people wishing for the demise of the Malinois, trying to predict what will be it's downfall....How does this help anyone? how does it help the GSD? If the Malinois does start to fall in it's workability, health, or temperment... That does not magically make the GSD any better. On the flip side, I do see a lot of Malinois folks basking in the Malinois success as a working dog. look down their nose at their GSD as a breed. I ask the same question...how does that help the Malinois? It does not. Shoot, I hope for the GSD, I hope they find the solutions they are looking for. I mean if the Malinois is that great?.. As Malinois people we should have nothing to worry about if the GSD starts to meet the working GSD communities standards. And frankly, it's none of my business on how to fix the GSD or what caused the current state. I guess it's useful information for us Malinois folks to know what pit falls to avoid...and I think we are doing that. But I would like to see the GSD become a better working dog. I would love to see the Animosity between the two communities be reduced. I think it would be good for the dogs. I have seen in my 10 year tenure as a working dog person, the breeds become more and more elite from one another. I see an increasing amount of resentment toward one another....and that's about the worst virus our communities can have. It has stemmed all kinds of disease in my sport. From rule changes, to political movements, to just plain ol' shit talking at draw night at trials. It's childish and ridiculous.




This but swap GSD for Dobe and Mal for Mal/GSD........


----------



## Clarence Pierre

It is truly "All About" what Rick said in the beginning of this thread...plain, simple, to the point and true...PREACH IT RICK!!!! 
These statements go hand and paw.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

James Downey said:


> I think we are probably witnessing right now the most unproductive thing that plagues our working dog. And it's a nasty virus. None of this arguing about the current state of the GSD and trying to prove the reason for that state or trying to predict the reason that will be the Malinois demise does anything to forward the usefulness of our working dogs.
> 
> As a Malinois guy, I like my breed. Do I hope for a long and strong reign, you bet I do. But I think a lot of Malinois people bask in enjoyment seeing the current state of the GSD. I know very little about shepherds...But I do see that most GSD people admit that the state of the GSD is not at standard that they would like to see. Now, I do also see a staggering amount of people wishing for the demise of the Malinois, trying to predict what will be it's downfall....How does this help anyone? how does it help the GSD? If the Malinois does start to fall in it's workability, health, or temperment... That does not magically make the GSD any better. On the flip side, I do see a lot of Malinois folks basking in the Malinois success as a working dog. look down their nose at their GSD as a breed. I ask the same question...how does that help the Malinois? It does not. Shoot, I hope for the GSD, I hope they find the solutions they are looking for. I mean if the Malinois is that great?.. As Malinois people we should have nothing to worry about if the GSD starts to meet the working GSD communities standards. And frankly, it's none of my business on how to fix the GSD or what caused the current state. I guess it's useful information for us Malinois folks to know what pit falls to avoid...and I think we are doing that. But I would like to see the GSD become a better working dog. I would love to see the Animosity between the two communities be reduced. I think it would be good for the dogs. I have seen in my 10 year tenure as a working dog person, the breeds become more and more elite from one another. I see an increasing amount of resentment toward one another....and that's about the worst virus our communities can have. It has stemmed all kinds of disease in my sport. From rule changes, to political movements, to just plain ol' shit talking at draw night at trials. It's childish and ridiculous.


I am entirely of your opinion and heartily sick of hearing on this forum about the differences.

The GSD club of which I was a member had both. *We, as handlers, helped each other*. The same with Belgian Shepherd Clubs. That's what it's all about.

I'll stick my neck out and say that in Switzerland and Germany, there is not such a huge problem as on here. 

The discussion about which is better is an entire waste of time which could be better used in training issues, tracking, obedience, bitework.


----------



## Jim Engel

James Downey said:


> I think we are probably witnessing right now the most unproductive thing that plagues our working dog. And it's a nasty virus. None of this arguing about the current state of the GSD and trying to prove the reason for that state or trying to predict the reason that will be the Malinois demise does anything to forward the usefulness of our working dogs.
> 
> As a Malinois guy, I like my breed. Do I hope for a long and strong reign, you bet I do. But I think a lot of Malinois people bask in enjoyment seeing the current state of the GSD. I know very little about shepherds...But I do see that most GSD people admit that the state of the GSD is not at standard that they would like to see. Now, I do also see a staggering amount of people wishing for the demise of the Malinois, trying to predict what will be it's downfall....How does this help anyone? how does it help the GSD? If the Malinois does start to fall in it's workability, health, or temperment... That does not magically make the GSD any better. On the flip side, I do see a lot of Malinois folks basking in the Malinois success as a working dog. look down their nose at their GSD as a breed. I ask the same question...how does that help the Malinois? It does not. Shoot, I hope for the GSD, I hope they find the solutions they are looking for. I mean if the Malinois is that great?.. As Malinois people we should have nothing to worry about if the GSD starts to meet the working GSD communities standards. And frankly, it's none of my business on how to fix the GSD or what caused the current state. I guess it's useful information for us Malinois folks to know what pit falls to avoid...and I think we are doing that. But I would like to see the GSD become a better working dog. I would love to see the Animosity between the two communities be reduced. I think it would be good for the dogs. I have seen in my 10 year tenure as a working dog person, the breeds become more and more elite from one another. I see an increasing amount of resentment toward one another....and that's about the worst virus our communities can have. It has stemmed all kinds of disease in my sport. From rule changes, to political movements, to just plain ol' shit talking at draw night at trials. It's childish and ridiculous.


I agree with this in principle, a good statement.

Personally, I admire and respect the German Shepherd dog, the founders, and the many people who over 120 years have made it one of the best breeds in the world.

It is for these reasons I speak out against the SV leadership, which over the past 20 to 40 years has abandoned the principles of von Stephanitz to breed fashionable dogs with soft temperaments for pet homes in order to make money.

I applaud those old line German Shepherd trainers and breeders who hold to the original traditions, as in the dogs and handlers winning the KNPV championship last year, this was and is a good thing, for both the Malionis and the GSD.

I have one further point. It is silly to talk about breeding working dogs with "good structure" as judged in the GSD conformation ring, for the GSD show community, under the SV, has made structure detrimental to real work the so called "standard" of perfection . The banana backs are freaks of nature, not a desirable structure for a working dog.


----------



## Matt Vandart

Jon Harris said:


> over in the video section as i dont want to hijack this thread
> is a vid of tito the one i traded a bus for.
> 
> also he is registered GSD but looks nothing like my others
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWk70oYrO_I


Nice dog, what a bargain


----------



## Hunter Allred

James Downey said:


> I think we are probably witnessing right now the most unproductive thing that plagues our working dog. And it's a nasty virus. None of this arguing about the current state of the GSD and trying to prove the reason for that state or trying to predict the reason that will be the Malinois demise does anything to forward the usefulness of our working dogs.
> 
> As a Malinois guy, I like my breed. Do I hope for a long and strong reign, you bet I do. But I think a lot of Malinois people bask in enjoyment seeing the current state of the GSD. I know very little about shepherds...But I do see that most GSD people admit that the state of the GSD is not at standard that they would like to see. Now, I do also see a staggering amount of people wishing for the demise of the Malinois, trying to predict what will be it's downfall....How does this help anyone? how does it help the GSD? If the Malinois does start to fall in it's workability, health, or temperment... That does not magically make the GSD any better. On the flip side, I do see a lot of Malinois folks basking in the Malinois success as a working dog. look down their nose at their GSD as a breed. I ask the same question...how does that help the Malinois? It does not. Shoot, I hope for the GSD, I hope they find the solutions they are looking for. I mean if the Malinois is that great?.. As Malinois people we should have nothing to worry about if the GSD starts to meet the working GSD communities standards. And frankly, it's none of my business on how to fix the GSD or what caused the current state. I guess it's useful information for us Malinois folks to know what pit falls to avoid...and I think we are doing that. But I would like to see the GSD become a better working dog. I would love to see the Animosity between the two communities be reduced. I think it would be good for the dogs. I have seen in my 10 year tenure as a working dog person, the breeds become more and more elite from one another. I see an increasing amount of resentment toward one another....and that's about the worst virus our communities can have. It has stemmed all kinds of disease in my sport. From rule changes, to political movements, to just plain ol' shit talking at draw night at trials. It's childish and ridiculous.


I agree entirely... I am in no way anti mal or anti any breed. Of course I'm partial to the working GSD, I have three. Ive stated several times, i like mals, i worked 3 mals yesterday. One of my favorite dogs to work in protection was actually a border collie. I meant for my posts regarding mals, not as a "hope for their demise" in any way, just as a "learn from the history of the GSD to benefit the breed not yet faced with the same problems". It is really frustrating when the people dismiss the GSD as though there were no quality left. More importantly, like you said, it's counter productive... And I believe the mal will be best preserved by ensuring the average person sees a mal on tv and ignorantly says "wow, let's get a GSD". Pressure for a mal for the every man, *will* result in man pet quality mals, and will mean getting a good mal will require more careful selection, just as it has for the GSD

If there were not closed stud books, I'd probably look into outcrossing mal blood in to gsd lines to help offset some of the genetic problems that were brought about long before I was born.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Hunter Allred said:


> I agree entirely... I am in no way anti mal or anti any breed. Of course I'm partial to the working GSD, I have three. Ive stated several times, i like mals, i worked 3 mals yesterday. One of my favorite dogs to work in protection was actually a border collie. I meant for my posts regarding mals, not as a "hope for their demise" in any way, just as a "learn from the history of the GSD to benefit the breed not yet faced with the same problems". It is really frustrating when the people dismiss the GSD as though there were no quality left. More importantly, like you said, it's counter productive... And I believe the mal will be best preserved by ensuring the average person sees a mal on tv and ignorantly says "wow, let's get a GSD". Pressure for a mal for the every man, *will* result in man pet quality mals, and will mean getting a good mal will require more careful selection, just as it has for the GSD
> 
> If there were not closed stud books, I'd probably look into outcrossing mal blood in to gsd lines to help offset some of the genetic problems that were brought about long before I was born.


How on earth could you know that you would not be bringing in *other *problems to the GSD? The quickest way to alter a breed is by crossing it with a breed that doesn't have the same faults. In Switzerland, this would have to be sanctioned by the Swiss Kennel Club.

To eliminate certain undesirable traits might take 30 years of breeding, all supposing one knew what one was trying to alter.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Gillian Schuler said:


> How on earth could you know that you would not be bringing in *other *problems to the GSD? The quickest way to alter a breed is by crossing it with a breed that doesn't have the same faults. In Switzerland, this would have to be sanctioned by the Swiss Kennel Club.
> 
> To eliminate certain undesirable traits might take 30 years of breeding, all supposing one knew what one was trying to alter.


I said "look into" lol


----------



## Matt Vandart

Gillian Schuler said:


> How on earth could you know that you would not be bringing in *other *problems to the GSD? The quickest way to alter a breed is by crossing it with a breed that doesn't have the same faults. In Switzerland, this would have to be sanctioned by the Swiss Kennel Club.
> 
> To eliminate certain undesirable traits might take 30 years of breeding, all supposing one knew what one was trying to alter.


7 generations to completely change one aspect of a breed I heard


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Hunter Allred said:


> I said "look into" lol


Ok


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I attended the breeding seminar at Zürich University.

The minimum of years given to change a physical feature was 30 years. Crossing with a similar breed but lacking the undesired feature would be much quicker.

I can only think that temperament features would be far more difficult to define and alter.


----------



## Erik Berg

Speaking of conformation, a correct structure is a good thing, but in the GSD people pay much attention on wrong details that is a hindrance and not a benefit. Just look at all rather big GSDs from workinglines that have a back and angulation not far from the showdogs. So either the problem is people thinks this is correct and strive for it, or the conformationregulations makes it harder to get thru if you have a GSD that lack some pigmention and has a build more like a malinois. As I said earlier conformation regulations are less strict here, and I think this shows if looking at lines breed by SV-rules and those not as a generalization. I think something like this is a correct structure, a GSD doesn´t need more weird back and more angulation plus size. Likewise, the second dog, not so good looking I think, but is it wrong to breed such dogs if it has other benefits like healthy and good lines for work, I guess many would say it´s wrong in the GSD world just based on the looks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u6lAHvLauk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUbXbmvjvQs

I actually heard the same thing about the malinois as a servicedog from one of the founders of the breed here who also works in the police for long, they are getting slowy more adapted to sport and what wins there. This will give us a more easily trained sensitive dog, still great drives, but in time the lack of nervestrenght and confidence will also affect this type. Actually he didn´t mind crossing a hard GSD into the malinois population, or likewise the GSD could have some malinois influence to increase drive, health and a sounder body. Just like the workingmalinois was created in holland/belgium by mixing breeds.

If people are not intressted in this there needs to be a critical selection of the pure good lines in each breed, what´s gone wrong can also hopefully get fixed if breeders cooperate to the same goal.


----------



## Jim Engel

In Belgium you can take any dog in any breed ring 
to get a conformation rating. People often do this in
order to participate in sport programs.

If two judges rate the dog "good" then you can you 
can get provisional registration, which converts to full
registration in the third generation.

"Good" by the way is not a very demanding rating,
roughly translating as "your dog looks like it might
be of this breed, so I am not going to refuse you
a rating and embarrass you."

I think this is the right approach, the concept of
"purebred" is historically recent, and in many ways
not such a good idea.

More information:
http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch15.pdf


----------



## Hunter Allred

Gillian Schuler said:


> I attended the breeding seminar at Zürich University.
> 
> The minimum of years given to change a physical feature was 30 years. Crossing with a similar breed but lacking the undesired feature would be much quicker.
> 
> I can only think that temperament features would be far more difficult to define and alter.


Look into the Russian silver fox experiment. Temperament can be changed extremely fast


----------



## Matt Vandart

Jim Engel said:


> In Belgium you can take any dog in any breed ring
> to get a conformation rating. People often do this in
> order to participate in sport programs.
> 
> If two judges rate the dog "good" then you can you
> can get provisional registration, which converts to full
> registration in the third generation.
> 
> "Good" by the way is not a very demanding rating,
> roughly translating as "your dog looks like it might
> be of this breed, so I am not going to refuse you
> a rating and embarrass you."
> 
> I think this is the right approach, the concept of
> "purebred" is historically recent, and in many ways
> not such a good idea.
> 
> More information:
> http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch15.pdf


That is the way forward


----------



## Hunter Allred

Matt Vandart said:


> That is the way forward


I agree... A closed genetic population shrinks over time, this would mitigate that if done well


----------



## Ken Seminatore

Yes, The Dutch Shepherds are for sure, making strong advance both in Sport and LE.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Jim Engel said:


> In Belgium you can take any dog in any breed ring
> to get a conformation rating. People often do this in
> order to participate in sport programs.
> 
> If two judges rate the dog "good" then you can you
> can get provisional registration, which converts to full
> registration in the third generation.
> 
> "Good" by the way is not a very demanding rating,
> roughly translating as "your dog looks like it might
> be of this breed, so I am not going to refuse you
> a rating and embarrass you."
> 
> I think this is the right approach, the concept of
> "purebred" is historically recent, and in many ways
> not such a good idea.
> 
> More information:
> http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch15.pdf


Jim, do you know how many dogs have taken advantage of this?

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----------



## Jim Engel

Christopher Smith said:


> Jim, do you know how many dogs have taken advantage of this?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My associations are mostly Bouvier people, and except for people wanting
to take a dog in for sport competition in, for instance IPO, this has not
been at all common since the earlier era.

For working Malinois people, NVBK is more pertinent I would think,
and although I have the impression that they have pragmatic procedures,
I am not aware of the details.

I think before WW II, when there was a lot of going back and forth
with Kennel Club Belge this sort of thing was quite common.

Up through the 1950's the French registration system was really
a mess, and it was difficult to import dogs into USA for the AKC 
from France.

I know of particularly desired French dogs which were taken to
Belgium to get the papers straightened out. In this instance it
was Felix Verbanck, well known in Malinois circles, a famous breeder
and club officer, in several breeds who performed
the task for an American Bouvier breeder, who had left Belgium
one step ahead of the Nazis in WW II, through Spain. Verbanck
lived for many years prior to WW II in France, and knew Maliois
and Bouvier breeders very well.

I think Verbanck applied a little of what would be called pull
in Chicago. I have a lot of the Verbanck correspondence, it
is interesting reading.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

So this hasn't been done since the 1940s, that you have personal knowledge of?

T


----------



## Jim Engel

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So this hasn't been done since the 1940s, that you have personal knowledge of?
> 
> T


I know of specific instances into the middle 1950s.

Falsification of parents on registration is also always going
on to some extent.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I have seen hundreds of GSDs with straight backs. I suggest that you inform yourselves of what is really happening in Germany or you let this thread die a decent death.

There is no connection caninewise between Show Dogs and Working dogs in Swizerland and Germany at least.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have seen hundreds of GSDs with straight backs. I suggest that you inform yourselves of what is really happening in Germany or you let this thread die a decent death.
> 
> There is no connection caninewise between Show Dogs and Working dogs in Swizerland and Germany at least.


I see GSDs with straight backs too. They are called back yard bred pets, here in America. Can you show us one German or Swiss example of a a living GSD that has come in the top 3 dogs at any German Shepherd show or working event that has a straight back? 


What's that I hear?...Is that the Excuse Express pulling into the station? 

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----------



## Christopher Smith

I do see white GSDs with straight backs too

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----------



## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> I see GSDs with straight backs too. They are called back yard bred pets, here in America. Can you show us one German or Swiss example of a a living GSD that has come in the top 3 dogs at any German Shepherd show or working event that has a straight back?
> 
> 
> What's that I hear?...Is that the Excuse Express pulling into the station?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Why should they come first in the SV show dog shows?

All SV GSD dogs have to show their dogs to be able to breed. Mostly they feature in the last rows because of their "ugly, straight backed appearance, coupled with the fact that they have no saddle like the show dogs.

What you have in America is not relevant for me. Many good GSDs were shipped to America. Where are they and what has been done to breed from them?

Christopher, instead of shooting off your mouth about back yard bred pets in America, why don't you take a glance across the pond and inform yourself of what Germany has and is producing?


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why should they come first in the SV show dog shows?
> 
> All SV GSD dogs have to show their dogs to be able to breed. Mostly they feature in the last rows because of their "ugly, straight backed appearance, coupled with the fact that they have no saddle like the show dogs.
> 
> What you have in America is not relevant for me. Many good GSDs were shipped to America. Where are they and what has been done to breed from them?
> 
> Christopher, instead of shooting off your mouth about back yard bred pets in America, why don't you take a glance across the pond and inform yourself of what Germany has and is producing?


This was our dog's dad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMLPc_pv2bc

There are many more with straight backs. Ahron Granite Rose was our other dog's grandfather.

Germany and Switzerland are completely separated as regards Show and Working Dog Lines.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> I do see white GSDs with straight backs too
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


They are a separate breed, i.e.

Berger Blanc Suisse.


----------



## Erik Berg

Jim Engel said:


> In Belgium you can take any dog in any breed ring
> to get a conformation rating. People often do this in
> order to participate in sport programs.
> 
> If two judges rate the dog "good" then you can you
> can get provisional registration, which converts to full
> registration in the third generation.
> 
> "Good" by the way is not a very demanding rating,
> roughly translating as "your dog looks like it might
> be of this breed, so I am not going to refuse you
> a rating and embarrass you."


I thinkt this can be done in germany too and other countries but maybe not with the same rules, some ducth sheperds from unregistred KNPV-lines have done that to get their FCI-pedigree. Breeds with small genepools I know they have crossed other similar breeds into, and then crossed back into the original breed with the kennelcubs approval(in sweden). 

Gillian, straight back or not, far from all GSDs in germany from workinglines are good for breeding, healthwise and workingwise if policedog is the goal. Of course there are dogs that are less affected by breeding for looks but it seems to be quite many dogs also from workinglines where showstructure and looks in general is selected over real quality. I don´t think the issue is structure, the issue is when people breed for unfunctional structure or if the rules are too hard so a dog that is a good worker barely can pass the conformtaiondemands because it´s too "uggly", especially if uggly in this case is a perfectly healthy structure.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why should they come first in the SV show dog shows?


Where did I say anything about an SV show? I didn't. You are making things up in your own head...again.



> All SV GSD dogs have to show their dogs to be able to breed. Mostly they feature in the last rows because of their "ugly, straight backed appearance, coupled with the fact that they have no saddle like the show dogs.


Yeah... I already said that. I guess you can only see things I don't say.




> Christopher, instead of shooting off your mouth about back yard bred pets in America, why don't you take a glance across the pond and inform yourself of what Germany has and is producing?


I'm very informed on what is going on on both sides of the Atlantic. I have spent far more time in Europe than you have spent in the US so who are you to comment about what has been done in the US?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> This was our dog's dad:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMLPc_pv2bc
> 
> There are many more with straight backs. Ahron Granite Rose was our other dog's grandfather.
> 
> Germany and Switzerland are completely separated as regards Show and Working Dog Lines.
> 
> So put that in your pipe and smoke it.


I want what you are smoking that makes this dog's back look straight!:mrgreen:










I think Sid was a great working dog; but a straight back?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Erik Berg said:


> I thinkt this can be done in germany too and other countries but maybe not with the same rules, some ducth sheperds from unregistred KNPV-lines have done that to get their FCI-pedigree.


The FCI approves this in all countries and all breeds. It's up to that countries individual breed clubs to adopt the practice or not.


----------



## Catherine Gervin

Christopher Smith said:


> I want what you are smoking that makes this dog's back look straight!:mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i could be wrong--and i'm sure you'll be there rapidfire to assert that i am--but isn't this the dog in "stance"? like when Arabian horses rack? if his hind legs weren't placed that far back and he were in a stand i believe his back would look even straighter than it does in this photo. no, you cannot balance a tray of martinis on his haunches but this is something my dog does, too, and when she simply stops still, abruptly standing on command or whatever, her back is indeed quite straight. when she goes into stance and her hind feet are further back she has some rounding but it is NOTHING like the overangulationfreakshow of show German Shepherds in the US


----------



## rick smith

get real
it's a single photo in two dimensions, probably posed to show off its head profile
how can you make any conclusive judgments of body type from one picture ? i don't think it's valid
the pic shows from, the left side, that it has four legs and two ears except that it might be missing a complete tail

the video confirmed a lot more and confirmed it did have a full tail and was not a freak and moved pretty well when i watched it

you have to see a dog move to see how it's built unless it is a TOTAL freak and this dog is not a total freak of nature unless your standards are way above normal ... whatever normal is these days :roll:

what does part of the thread does this have to do with mals taking over the gsd in LE ?


----------



## Jon Harris

God I almost hate to jump in here but this dog looks a lot like the dog i have. And I have to agree that this dog even in show stance looks nothing like the poor GSDs ive seen in the AKC shows that have backs that slant sharply down starting right at the front shoulders They look like the freakshow mentioned and something I will never want. I also like the heavy german (or what I consider German) head and not the thin longer snout the "new" GSDs here have

Just my layman's observations

Also I think this thread is a long way from the original intent.

Are the Malinois taking over the Gsd in LE?
That is the question here.


----------



## Christopher Smith

rick smith said:


> get real
> it's a single photo in two dimensions, probably posed to show off its head profile
> how can you make any conclusive judgments of body type from one picture ? i don't think it's valid
> the pic shows from, the left side, that it has four legs and two ears except that it might be missing a complete tail
> 
> the video confirmed a lot more and confirmed it did have a full tail and was not a freak and moved pretty well when i watched it
> 
> you have to see a dog move to see how it's built unless it is a TOTAL freak and this dog is not a total freak of nature unless your standards are way above normal ... whatever normal is these days :roll:
> 
> what does part of the thread does this have to do with mals taking over the gsd in LE ?


Rick I have seen the dog with my own two eyes.

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----------



## Christopher Smith

Jon Harris said:


> God I almost hate to jump in here but this dog looks a lot like the dog i have. And I have to agree that this dog even in show stance looks nothing like the poor GSDs ive seen in the AKC shows that have backs that slant sharply down starting right at the front shoulders They look like the freakshow mentioned and something I will never want. I also like the heavy german (or what I consider German) head and not the thin longer snout the "new" GSDs here have
> 
> Just my layman's observations
> 
> Also I think this thread is a long way from the original intent.
> 
> Are the Malinois taking over the Gsd in LE?
> That is the question here.


No it's not as bad as some but is it straight?

This a classic example of one of the things that truly does ruin a breed. Too many people that saying it's bad, but then excuse it because it's not the worst. We can't base our perception of a good dog on the most horrible examples of the breed. They need to based on the best examples of the breed. I don't want to breed dogs better than the worst. I want to breed dogs better than the best. 

And honestly it doesn't matter what LE wants here in the US. What matters is what the brokers want to provide for sale to them. 

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----------



## Ken Seminatore

Tom, you are right on.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

The dog above [Sid?] is faulty and no he does not have a level topline. He has a dip behind the withers in motion. His proportions [length to height] are wrong or off. Croup, tail set and stifle hock length proportions are wrong. He's not stacked correctly because he doesn't have the conformation for it.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

rick smith said:


> get real
> it's a single photo in two dimensions, probably posed to show off its head profile
> how can you make any conclusive judgments of body type from one picture ? i don't think it's valid
> the pic shows from, the left side, that it has four legs and two ears except that it might be missing a complete tail
> 
> the video confirmed a lot more and confirmed it did have a full tail and was not a freak and moved pretty well when i watched it
> 
> you have to see a dog move to see how it's built unless it is a TOTAL freak and this dog is not a total freak of nature unless your standards are way above normal ... whatever normal is these days :roll:
> 
> what does part of the thread does this have to do with mals taking over the gsd in LE ?


Stacking a dog can be an art and there are handlers that have mastered it to cover up faults. However, you can't cover up this dog. The roach at the loin/croup is glaring. I went to the video to see if I could see him move and that was pretty off, as expected from seeing the stacked picture. I wonder how old he is in the video. He's so bunched up in the rear, I wonder if he needs some chiro work.

T


----------



## Erik Berg

If the malinois is taking over in LE-work how can breeding for looks and mediocre character in working GSDs not be on topic

Is the first dog really what is ideal for a workingdog in structure compared to a type more similar to the second one, not only on pictures but in real life there is a noticeable differance in structure,

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=450116-javir-vom-talka-marda

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=437478-norpatorps-gismo


----------



## Ben Thompson

...the DDR dogs had what you guys would call "real schutzhund". That must mean that their dogs are better then west german lines and czech lines. I notice their backs are fairly straight too. The DDR lines must have really cleaned house in the sport world when communism took a shit. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad2YxscPhSE


----------



## Catherine Gervin

Erik Berg said:


> If the malinois is taking over in LE-work how can breeding for looks and mediocre character in working GSDs not be on topic
> 
> Is the first dog really what is ideal for a workingdog in structure compared to a type more similar to the second one, not only on pictures but in real life there is a noticeable differance in structure,
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=450116-javir-vom-talka-marda
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=437478-norpatorps-gismo


 i know i lack the experience to see what may be obvious, but is there a difference between this first dog listed and the male picked apart as being faulty a page or two back?
now, the second dog is more square and his back is quite straight--he has a fine looking head, too--so i see the variation but, if we're not talking breeding stock (because Police dogs are usually not bred?! who's idea was that, anyways?) then isn't it a matter of the dog's achievement level? if they hold up over their careers, then isn't that a significant sign of being worthwhile?
also, there was a comparison made between the height of a GSD and a Malinois, according to breed standards from which organization i do not know, but, of the limited number of Malinois i have seen in person, ALL of them has been slighter if not all together smaller than GSDs. not to split hairs, because a fast dog barreling in with a mouthful of teeth will do the job if they weigh 60 or 100lbs, but i thought a fraction of the dogs' innate ability as a deterrent was that it looked big enough to stop you.
someone earlier said that they suspected price to be a big part of what decided which type of dog you got in LE and that sounds like it makes more sense, rather than Mals being better. are they healthier? from what the commonly available literature--i.e. dog books--says OF COURSE they are, but they're also smaller, less to lug around over all those miles and pavement and jumps, and they're also less popular in the dog community so there has surely been a staggering level of interference missing from their gene pool. they are game bred, and that makes for the purest of ability, but everyone saying they hope the breed remains less than popular is dead on...look at what they've done to all the breeds they've gotten their hands on to drag into the spotlight and under the microscope. just a decade did a world of damage to Pembroke Welsh Corgis and APBTs, and how much longer have German Shepherds been the standard against whom all other protection breeds compared?
lastly, not to say it means anything, only to mention it, when children's toys or coloring books or movies portray police dogs it's always a German Shepherd. when people stop me in the street and ask me about my dog, 75% of the time they say "Is that a K9?"--nevermind that she's a puppy and a she, nevermind that all dogs are canines-- and when my husband was in Afghanistan and took pictures of the dogs on his base in Kandahar for me, all of them were German Shepherds. when they went into the field and traveled from one FOB to the next, all the military dogs he came across were also German Shepherds.


----------



## Erik Berg

This dog has an even more extreme structure I would say than the other, problems with backs are not rare when it comes to GSDs and service, the more unnaturall a strucure becomes I guess this will have something to do with how healthy their bodies are over time. But of course a dog could have a totally normal structure but still be weak mentally, but that´s two different things.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Erik Berg said:


> If the malinois is taking over in LE-work how can breeding for looks and mediocre character in working GSDs not be on topic
> 
> Is the first dog really what is ideal for a workingdog in structure compared to a type more similar to the second one, not only on pictures but in real life there is a noticeable differance in structure,
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=450116-javir-vom-talka-marda
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=437478-norpatorps-gismo


What is working dog structure? One of the problems is the confusion regarding where the slope comes from. Higher wither into a level back is the standard. The back shouldn't have a sway or roach. The slope in the stacked position comes from the croup/pelvis angle and the angulation and proportions in the rear assembly, along with a decent wither point. There was a time that the dogs were referred to as ski sloped which really came from straight steep shoulders combined with the rest of it. Javir doesn't have my ideal back line but I'd take him over the other dog any day when you look at the work that defines what the GSD is supposed to be built like. The stacked position only tells you so much and that's if they do it correctly. I'd like to see them moving free, off leash in a trot to see how all that works together. 

T


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## Erik Berg

How come the old GSDs from the beginning of the breed had a structure more or less like many malinois or a wolf, wouldn´t that be what is most efficient and healthy then? Workingstructure for me is a dog have a structure that makes it athletic and a body that have optimum chance to hold long, common sense I guess. I doubt you can see that by only looking at a dog, but nature itself have no wolves,dingos etc that looks like what some refer as good structure in GSDs.


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## Christopher Smith

Erik Berg said:


> How come the old GSDs from the beginning of the breed had a structure more or less like many malinois or a wolf, wouldn´t that be what is most efficient and healthy then? Workingstructure for me is a dog have a structure that makes it athletic and a body that have optimum chance to hold long, common sense I guess. I doubt you can see that by only looking at a dog, but nature itself have no wolves,dingos etc that looks like what some refer as good structure in GSDs.


The wokingline has that structure because of the showline influence on the breed. That stucture has become normalised in the breed. Now most of the people with the breed believe that that's how a working dog looks. It's like pet people that have become used to seeing obese dogs. When they see a dog in good shape they think its emaciated. 

Or maybe they saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK70mATVGhs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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## Erik Berg

Yes I agree, it´s seems what many think is correct, the founder of the breed thought this was a good dog in structure yet many today would probably say it´s wrong,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=862-utz-vom-haus-schutting


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## susan tuck

Erik Berg said:


> Yes I agree, it´s seems what many think is correct, the founder of the breed thought this was a good dog in structure yet many today would probably say it´s wrong,
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=862-utz-vom-haus-schutting


Agreed. Many are so enthralled in their angles it would be funny if it weren't so sad. It's all very unfortunate.


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## rick smith

since this is now a conformation thread i have a few questions that i think might pertain:

Q- is the "decline" in the gsd breed largely due to the slope of the back, or is it the "supersizing", weakness in hips, frequency of bloating, EPI, large assortment of cancers and a weakened character that prevents many from having enuff motivation to grip and/or protect and instead prefer to be a ball chasing couch potato ?

Q- obviously i am no show dog judge, but i don't like a gsd who has trouble walking normal that needs to get up some speed b4 its anatomy starts functioning correctly, but i would like to know how the roach back that is brought up so frequently has correlated into a weakening of athletic ability ?

- i have seen and heard of many gsd life threatening physical problems, but never had any experience with a dog who had back problems that killed it early or disabled it. maybe this is because i don't know that many show dogs or it's still too early to see how this extreme angulation has resulted in physical injuries
- but the dog with the bad back structure in the one clip i watched did not seem to be hampered by this deformity and i also checked around a saw a few others from this line working in IPO 

Q - any studies that have confirmed the "roach back look" produces HD or spinal disabilities ?

Q- like many here, i don't like the "show look" either; just saying it doesn't seem to me to be as high of a priority for "restoring" the gsd breed, so why is it always the most hotly debated aspect ????

would appreciate comments to my Q's please, from those in the know 
TIA


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Erik Berg said:


> Yes I agree, it´s seems what many think is correct, the founder of the breed thought this was a good dog in structure yet many today would probably say it´s wrong,
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=862-utz-vom-haus-schutting


Perhaps he was the lessor of evil and an improvement on what was before him, instead of what was desired or the end goal. That is the problem with what is in the show ring. Just because its in the ring, doesn't mean that its correct. There are few if any perfect dogs. Still, what is working dog structure and who said that is what is and WHY?

T


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## Katie Finlay

I don't think any one thing causes a decline in any breed. I think it's a combination of things. The GSD skeletal structure is one of those things, but I don't think anyone is focusing solely on that. I think it's just easier to talk about one aspect at a time.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nothing other than working line breeders themselves has interfered with maintaining the working aspects of the breed. Selection for mental and physical soundness and the breed will prevail. For me they are a health gamble with a huge price tag. If you are not a person with a breed preference and just want certain working drives, yes you will go elsewhere.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

http://www.gsdinfo.co.uk/Breed Info/donar overstolzen.jpg

Sieger 1924 *Donar von Overstolzen, 220839, SchH, dob 15.3.1923;
Donar Overstolzen (67cm) is linebred to Arno von der Eichenburg (3-3). By the way he became 1924 youth and breed winner. He rated V3 in 1925 behind the winner Klodo von Boxberg and Sultan von Blasienberg. In his male offspring there is a lack of a dominant progenitor, so that this line ends with his descendants in the 30's. The termination of this much used line may also possibly be related to association politics. Many male animals of this line were expelled in Schaellers " Vererbungsfeststellungen beim Deut*schen Schäferhund (Observations on Inheritance of the German Shepherd Dog)" as so-called warning dogs concerning the size.


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## Bob Scott

Mother nature seems to have done a pretty good job yet "authorities" continue to declare the slope/banana backed, over angulated SV type dog as being the go to, cookie cutter look. 
Which is closer to this structure the average show or average working line GSD? Not hard to figure is it?!!
Which will break down first? The canine with the artificial flying trot that People have decided is correct in order to run around a rig for a couple of dozen times or the canine that Mom nature spent thousands of yrs perfecting so it can run all day long to wear out it's quarry?
I understanding some not wanting to compare the dog to the wolf when it comes to mental development, maturity, Pack structure,etc but the physical comparison is hard to ignore for functionality.


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## Jim Engel

Bob Scott said:


> Mother nature seems to have done a pretty good job yet "authorities" continue to declare the slope/banana backed, over angulated SV type dog as being the go to, cookie cutter look.
> Which is closer to this structure the average show or average working line GSD? Not hard to figure is it?!!
> Which will break down first? The canine with the artificial flying trot that People have decided is correct in order to run around a rig for a couple of dozen times or the canine that Mom nature spent thousands of yrs perfecting so it can run all day long to wear out it's quarry?
> I understanding some not wanting to compare the dog to the wolf when it comes to mental development, maturity, Pack structure,etc but the physical comparison is hard to ignore for functionality.


This seems to me to be a good point.


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## Jon Harris

i would agree on that
I never had a super angular dog and none of my straightish backed GSD have had hip or back problems over the years.


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> I want what you are smoking that makes this dog's back look straight!:mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Sid was a great working dog; but a straight back?


Words fail me - can't you see that his hind legs have been stretched? This is a common practice when photographing the dog - don't ask me why.


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> Where did I say anything about an SV show? I didn't. You are making things up in your own head...again.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah... I already said that. I guess you can only see things I don't say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm very informed on what is going on on both sides of the Atlantic. I have spent far more time in Europe than you have spent in the US so who are you to comment about what has been done in the US?


I have never been to the US - I am only wondering where the offspring of the dogs that have been exported there are doing good.

I have spent more time in Europe than you have I am sure. 

I have to say I think that the vast number of US handlers cannot possibly be aware of the situation in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc. but keep harping on about the SV Show Line.

It's not a question over here - occasinally one or two do good at Schutzhund. *Most working line dogs do not have any Show Lines in their pedigrees.*


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## Gillian Schuler

Jon Harris said:


> i would agree on that
> I never had a super angular dog and none of my straightish backed GSD have had hip or back problems over the years.


There maybe problems but this is not a major concern in the working line breeders. I think now the GSD has to have a spinal examination.

My extremely straight-backed Berger de Brie suffered spinal problems in old age which lead to us having to have him put to sleep.

As far as angulation is concerned, Professor Mark Flückiger of the animal hospital at the University of Zürich told us that too extreme angulation is certainly not good for the dog but could never cause hip displaysia.


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## Jon Harris

Gillian,
To me it is easy as opening your eyes to see the dog in the picture is on a show stance which naturally makes the back slope downward in an exaggerated way. Not being a show person, Ive never understood why this is done except it just is.


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## Gillian Schuler

http://www.haus-pixner.de/html/unsere-hunde.html

For all who think the GSD is doomed because of the "sloping back", scroll down to Wolfi Haus Pixner - he's been photographed in a normal stance.

As far as I know, Raiser never requires the dog to be "shown" in a "hind legs stretched out" stance.


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## Katie Finlay

Even when they aren't stacked they don't have straight backs. They're thighs are too long and standing in a "normal" pose they're too high in the rear. Just compare those photos to some of the old GSD photos posted in this thread.

Again, I don't think anyone thinks the sloped back alone is what is the major problem in this breed. It's a piece of the problem. You've just said so yourself.

I don't know why I try. All I know is that I love German Shepherds but there are multiple reasons I'll never have another one, and it doesn't always have to do with the dogs themselves.

With that, I bow out. Keep on keepin' on ye feisty ones.


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## Erik Berg

It´s not about they not crossing show/workinglines in germany, it´s about the workinglines that more and more deviate from a normal structure, or are not so high standard as far as workingability goes either. Half of the GSDs that are retired from service due to medical issues have problem with their backs according to numbers from the police, have also read other studies that says GSDs are overrepresented when it comes to L7S1 for example. To think the structural changes in the breed, larger size, longer curved backs combined with much angulation has no connection to this is naive I think.

But of course not every single GSD is bad, just sad some people are paying atttention to wrong things when breeding them, I mean a "wolf-like" GSD is beautifull as it is.


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> http://www.haus-pixner.de/html/unsere-hunde.html
> 
> For all who think the GSD is doomed because of the "sloping back", scroll down to Wolfi Haus Pixner - he's been photographed in a normal stance.
> 
> As far as I know, Raiser never requires the dog to be "shown" in a "hind legs stretched out" stance.


You just can't understand this can you? You give us a page of 9 dogs then point out the one dog that has a straight back as an argument that there is not a problem. :roll:

And the only reason that one dog's topline is straight is because they have his his legs splayed out all over the place to level it out.


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## Gillian Schuler

Erik Berg said:


> It´s not about they not crossing show/workinglines in germany, it´s about the workinglines that more and more deviate from a normal structure, or are not so high standard as far as workingability goes either. Half of the GSDs that are retired from service due to medical issues have problem with their backs according to numbers from the police, have also read other studies that says GSDs are overrepresented when it comes to L7S1 for example. To think the structural changes in the breed, larger size, longer curved backs combined with much angulation has no connection to this is naive I think.
> 
> But of course not every single GSD is bad, just sad some people are paying atttention to wrong things when breeding them, I mean a "wolf-like" GSD is beautifull as it is.


 ¨
That is clear that German speaking countries do not cross show / working lines!!!

Tell me explicitly about the ever increasing deviation from a normal structure, or are not so high standard as working ability goes either. What you are saying is something and nothing.

What is L751?

Larger size? Can you be more explicit?


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> You just can't understand this can you? You give us a page of 9 dogs then point out the one dog that has a straight back as an argument that there is not a problem. :roll:
> 
> And the only reason that one dog's topline is straight is because they have his his legs splayed out all over the place to level it out.
> 
> Forget it!


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## Matt Vandart

Slightly off topic interms of GSD/malinois, ironically I had a conversation about show/work lines relating to Dobermans and it would seem lines which are essentially 'show lines' are doing very well in working sports.
In the UK there are no 'working lines' as such, not UK working lines but dobes from show lines with a good work ethic are on the rise, which is nice.

Anyway back on topic, I found this link pretty interesting:
http://siriusdog.com/anatomy-working-canine-dog-shoulder.htm

and also this which is about Saluki's but deals with structure very well:

http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm


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## Erik Berg

Gillian Schuler said:


> ¨
> That is clear that German speaking countries do not cross show / working lines!!!
> 
> Tell me explicitly about the ever increasing deviation from a normal structure, or are not so high standard as working ability goes either. What you are saying is something and nothing.
> 
> What is L751?
> 
> Larger size? Can you be more explicit?


L7S1 syndrome is what they discuss here, the last article is in dutch, maybe some can give a short summary, it mentions the difference between GSDs and malinois I believe,

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2084&aid=456

http://www.dhcn.nl/Medisch/Rugproblemen_bij_de_Duitse_herder.pdf

My point is just because they don´t cross show/workinglines there are today pure workinglines that starting to look as showdogs, I think there already have been example of working GSDs with quite different structure in this discussion and how the type have changed. When it comes to workingdrives there is also far from all GSDs used that are above average, what some thinks is good may be mediocre for another, I think this is especially true if the dogs should be in LE-work.


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## Gillian Schuler

I'm sorry but if you can't deliver me with more detailed information, I will have to dismiss your post.

The show dog - I am now speaking of countries in which I am aware of the GSD - is a sloping back dog, mostly yellow and black with a definite saddle.

There is absolutely no saddle on the working line dog, i.e. the "grey dog" or the black or black with tan markings.

The structure of the working line dog in these countries is in no way similar to that of a show line dog.

The comparison to the Belgian Shepherd dog, i.e. the Malinois might lose out on various venues, I agree.

I like the Malinois, have never owned one but can imagine I would find satisfaction in a well bred one.


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## Leslie Patterson

Jim Engel said:


> For over a century, the GSD was the best dog in Schutzhund / IPO at the highest level,
> in a venue created by the SV for the GSD.
> 
> Today, the Malinois constantly predominates over the GSD in their own venue.
> 
> And every other protection venue such as KNPV and Ring.
> 
> Either the GSD has diminished in potential, or the Malinois was always
> superior and just not yet on the field.
> 
> There really is no other way to explain it.
> 
> You can not state it any more simply.


Umm no. GSD and Malinois is very equal in IPO.

I train in a highly competitive IPO club and out of curiosity have asked the people that work both which they think is better, they all said they are both different but one is not better than the other. 

Where I live they use GSD for LE


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## Erik Berg

Gillian, don´t know what you don´t understand really, I´m saying the old GSD was similar in structure to a malinois, a tendency to more curved backs similar to the showlines you can see in some workinglines today, there even was an example of a wellknown stud in this discussion.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Gillian Schuler said:


> http://www.haus-pixner.de/html/unsere-hunde.html
> 
> For all who think the GSD is doomed because of the "sloping back", scroll down to Wolfi Haus Pixner - he's been photographed in a normal stance.
> 
> As far as I know, Raiser never requires the dog to be "shown" in a "hind legs stretched out" stance.


I'd give it up. None of those dogs are overangulated and there is nothing wrong with the backs as they are pictured. The German show dogs have bred in roached backs and over angulation which none of the dogs pictured have. Backs are fairly straight as pictured and the croups have an angle--as they should--kinda helps in that rear follow-through and power when they move. The issues with the GSD are health and desired temperament and working ability. Picking lousy structure as the counter to lousy show structure doesn't help anything and I'm still waiting to read what is "working structure" and what determines that.

T


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## Christopher Smith

Leslie Patterson said:


> Umm no. GSD and Malinois is very equal in IPO.


The statistics strongly disagree with your conclusion. Go and research national and international IPO events. Average the scores between the breeds and the Malinois comes out on top in the vast majority of cases. In fact, for every one that you find that the GSD has a higher score I will donate $5 to the charity of your choice, up to $100. 

(This offer does not include national events hosted by Malinois or GSD breed clubs.)



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## Ben Thompson

Oh no now their betting! LOL


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## Christopher Smith

Ben Thompson said:


> Oh no now their betting! LOL




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## Gillian Schuler

I read a comparison of the GSD and the Malinois on a German Forum which I have translated.

Quote

I have only compared the dogs of both breeds from workinglines.

The GSDs that I know are generally less active, less nervy and have lesser temperament than the Malis. As well as physically, and also as physcologically, I find them quieter. The light nervy temperament that characterises the Mali is seldom to be found in the GSD.

Malis, in my experience, seem to have an even stronger bond to their handler, family, whatever. They want more than other dogs to be always and ever with them, and, at the best, they never want to be alone. They never let the tin-opener out of sight, even the trip to the toilet is accompanied. They search eye contact and read their handlers like a book. I know far more GSDs that go fully unproblematically into their kennels than Malis. On the other hand I know many Malis (mine included) that remain alone without problems but in the kennel go beserk and are fully stressed.

“Trieb macht blöd” „Drive causes dumbness“ describes the Mali very well. A Mali never gives up, whatever. Either he finds something more interesting, or one forbids him to do what his is just doing, or he falls down from exhaustion. Otherwise, he keeps on going without worrying about losses, e.g. the ball is only given up when it's atomised – the bone is only finished when it’s really in the stomach – the door will only be left alone when its open.

With the German Shepherd, I find they give up when the situation appears to be “too stupid”. That seems to be the reason why from a purely drive instinct, the Mali is stronger than the GSD.

As regards to the learning behaviour, I personally find that the Mali is superior to the the GSD. Malis appear to understand quicker. Especially in this area, it is of course entirely due to the training.

The old “Hau-Ruck-Methode” = rough and ready method (?) was strangely successfull with many GSDs. I have often see young dogs that walked around so “down” and sad that it made one nearly “heave”. A few months later, one saw them again and all pressures were forgotten – the dog trotted happily and enjoyed his ball. This is seldom with the Mali. This seems to be a point of no return where the dog once and for all loses his trust. I think Malis are very sensitive dogs, much more sensitive than the GSD.

I think in all situations, young Malis, because of their drive, show a behaviour that inexperienced handlers seem to falsely interpret as strength or maturity (as this in the case of a GSD would be). In Schutzdienst, e.g., Malis of a few months of age show the wished for aggression behaviour. Mentally, however, they are completely overstrained – they are just “children”.

There was a time in Schutzdienst when young dogs were just worked by the Helper animated just with sack or arm and were allowed to bite. A lot of hopping around, shouting and “banging” with the whip brought about the wished for drive. At one point came the point, where obedience had to “sit”, mostly around one year old. The dog was then pressed into the normal corset of the trial regulations and the trial finished. At this time the GSD dominated at all Dog Clubs.

This cannot function with the Mali. Either the poor dog is so crazily nerved, that he bites in panic everything that comes to near him, or he has become so strong, that he cannot be controlled. (Note from the author: The Service Handler has to work with these dogs, and afterwards the veterinary surgeon).

Malis do not need to be so driven, on the contrary: Good young dog training is often seen as totally boring. A lot of calm, a lot of love, a lot of safety (?) (Sicherheit), 

Of course one sees with nearly every dog good young dog training in this manner but it seems that the old methods with the GSD really do not function (sadly).

My fingers are nearly wounded but I would like to say, not every GSD or Mali is so as I have described. I have only attempted to lay down the tendencies.

Unquote


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## Christopher Smith

Who wrote that?

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## jim stevens

I can only report what I hear from law enforcement. I have several friends who are retired handlers, when they see my mali, the typical response is that they had a lot of shepherds, but the last one was a malinois and the best dog I ever had. Seems to be a recurring theme.


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