# Breed snobs??



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Enjoying my IPO group immensely. Curious about your views on one conversation we got into though. A member was cutting down a friend's friend for buying a $2000 labradoodle (for a pet). Most of our group jumped on the bandwagon. 

I commented that the price seemed high, but what's really wrong with a crossbreeding like that if the breeder is A. Producing healthy dogs with sound temperaments and B. There is really a good market of responsible/educated buyers.

When I say breeding for healthy dogs, I expect hips checked for sure on large breeds and then anything else that would pop up as a problem for either parent. 

So, the Doberman breeder told me she has zero respect for crossbreed breeders and sellers across the board. Why, "because a breeder like this could never even get their hands on a good bitch or dog in the first place because no one would ever sell to them." I called her a "breedist" in a somewhat playful way. I don't really know what that meant exactly, but it just came out.

Then another in the group said that as for crosses, he hasn't even seen a good shepinois and he has seen more than ten of them from good parents. ( I've never seen good working ones either, but have only seen randomly bred ones). He said, the difference in the two breeds makes it super random to produce anything good.

Just curious on what people know about crossbreeds. I'd like facts and not just breed snobbery. 

On a side note, can't stand that fact that a visitor mentioned "culling" for a possible Dutch shepherd breeding to keep pups out of the wrong hands and more so because it was to be a close breeding. Also, why is culling used for killing, AND for just limiting the buyers breeding rights. I think this lady meant killing!

Just your thoughts.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I'll turn it around. Why did you choose a purebred dog? Why did you choose the breeder got your pup from?

Would you have paid the same amount for a back yard bred dog? No papers, of course, which limits the venues you can compete in, and keeps the breeders costs down, but a healthy, happy pup with promises of being a nice pet. No need for titles, training or competing with the parent dogs, because the puppies are only going to be "pets" anyway. 

Culling can have different meanings, and doesn't always mean killing, but yes, its a gentler way of saying it. Much like people prefer to use terms like passed on when referring to people who are dead. No one wants to hear about killing puppies. 

Ask me about the short shitty ****ed up life of my now dead dutch shepherd foster dog and how everyone around her failed her, including me, and perhaps it will shed light on why some people are concerned that the pups they breed end up in proper homes.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Personally, I don't see myself paying 2K for a 'designer dog'. Mostly because I don't see it bringing anything special to the table. That being said I have paid 1,500 for a german shorthair puppy, something I didn't think I would have done 10 years ago. Not when I got my first 2 GSPs for free and my third was (gasp!) $600. But I liked the lines of this puppy and it matured into a really good search dog. So when the opportunity to purchase an AI puppy bred from the now deceased grandsire, I took it. Interesting to see the drive difference between son and grandson. 

Would I have paid 1,500 for a gsp destined to be a pet dog. No. Not when there are lots of good GSP pups out there for a lot less. Including several I've seen in breed rescue.

The biggest grief I have with folks like your labradoodle breeder is I think they are taking advantage of folks. But I guess that just follows with the adage: a fool and his money are soon parted. If someone is willing to cough up that much money, then can you fault someone for taking it?

As far as culling to keep out of the wrong hands, depending on the type of dog that may be the responsible thing instead of having them dumped off at a shelter down the road when they find out just how much dog they have. Yeah, I know the contract may say the dog will be returned but some won't. There was a famous GSP kennel where it was known that gun shy or gun sensitive dogs never made it off the field. Some may think this harsh but, to date, I've never seen a weak nerved dog from their lines. Instead its the exact opposite.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gina Mezin said:


> So, the Doberman breeder told me she has zero respect for crossbreed breeders and sellers across the board. Why, "because a breeder like this could never even get their hands on a good bitch or dog in the first place because no one would ever sell to them."
> 
> Just curious on what people know about crossbreeds. I'd like facts and not just breed snobbery.
> 
> I think this lady meant killing!


She probably did.

Just my opinion of course... the Doberman breeder doesn't know jack shit about what it takes to breed a good dog. The notion of purebred is a facade. None of the dogs we have are pure. The lines are documented, easily falsified, to include the occasional and intentional cross breed dog.

So what would you like to know about cross bred dogs?


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Ask me about the short shitty ****ed up life of my now dead dutch shepherd foster dog and how everyone around her failed her, including me, and perhaps it will shed light on why some people are concerned that the pups they breed end up in proper homes.


Amen. 

Leslie, you never failed that dog. That much I am certain of.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks for your input ladies! No, I wouldn't pay 2,000 for a Labradoodle. I have been impressed with several I've seen though. For some reason, they've been owned by people that took them out into the public and the dogs appeared balanced. I also saw a Labradoodle explosives dog hired by Disney. That guy probably cost a lot. He served a purpose which was being cute while doing a job. 

I don't know the actual cost of doing a good job breeding any particular breed, it must vary a lot, but with health checks going a ways back, and other expenses, it doesn't seem unreasonable that designer pups could cost around $1000. As for me, I think the person paying even $300 for a papered dog without the parents' hips being done (or other important breed specific tests) is much more foolish. I'm sure most would agree that papers don't mean much if you don't really understand if the dogs in the pedigree are really worth anything. It seems to me that the majority of purebreds being sold are this way, just backyard breeders that give papers. So, for me, like I said, it just comes down to whether the breeder really cares about the whole package of what they are producing and aren't just full of themselves or in it for the pay check. If it's a designer dog or working dog or pet doesn't matter. 

As for killing pups in a litter that aren't deformed or mentally unsound, I think this isn't respectful of life. Those are my values. I believe that breeders should be prepared to find 12 or more good homes and if they must do a no breed contract or keep the pups and get them fixed themselves before they are sold , so be it. Sure these surgeries arent super great for dogs, but most of these dogs live very full lives. I'm not sure I believe that doing a breeding so close that some pups are expected to come out messed up is ethical or to the betterment of a breed. Just the way I value the life of dogs. I'm sure a lot of our beauty pageant and working dogs we love had plenty of culling in their backgrounds. Was it necessary or worth it? As for the common man being able to afford a well bred dog, thats a question too. Keeping prices on some breeds super high may do more to help the breed, but it may not. Thanks for all the input again!!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The origin of the Labradoodle was intended to be a good thing.

Supposedly it was to breed a dog with no shedding or dander and also hybrid vigor.

The down side was everyone jumped on the band wagon and bred any poodle to any Lab for nothing more then money.

I have no issue with ANY responsible breeder if they take responsibility, as much as can be done anyway.

I've always thought the labradoodle could be a nice combo but as happens, there are probably way to many crappers out there compared to good ones.

Cost?

I've never paid more then a grand for any dog, ever. 

My top 3 favs that I've owned, one was a Humane society dog, one my dad paid 15 dollars for and the 3rd was a grand.

You don't necessarily get what you pay for but often you get way more then you expected regardless of price.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks Nicole for that! Yeah, I kept thinking where do they think our "breeds" come from. So Nicole, why or why not would it be hard to get a good crossbred IPO or bite sport dog for example, and have you seen one? I am not in the market for one at all, just interested. Do police departments ever use crossbred dogs successfully? Thanks!!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not to answer for Nicole but the police and the military both have often had Mal/GSD crosses and Dutch/GSD crosses.

Many people look at the Dutch as nothing more then a brindle Mal.

Both the Dutch and the Mal can throw the other's color in their litters as well as long haired dogs.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gina Mezin said:


> So Nicole, why or why not would it be hard to get a good crossbred IPO or bite sport dog for example, and have you seen one? Do police departments ever use crossbred dogs successfully? Thanks!!


Sure, I've got one. She's about as good as you could hope for. LEO/Military folks use dogs bred like her often (KNPV lines). I know that's not exactly what you were getting at but it's about as good of an example as one can have.

I won't speak from a position of authority, but certainly more than a handful of times the Dutch have used dogs with the qualities ideal for the work they were doing. The GSD/Mal is just one example of that. If you know your dogs well enough, you can easily pick it up in certain lines.

The Donovan is another example as are some of the bulldog varieties, bandogges, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaPD3gSq_UE


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

I agree that you can get more than you pay for Bob! Liked your response, and awesome that you never paid more than a grand. I bought at a pet store once, but I got a great dog. Going through all that switching of hands and coming out unscathed said something for him. Also, bought from a backyard breeder. He said, the litter was a mistake, but others hadn't been = $200. I'm by no means innocent, but have changed for the better I think. Truth is though, there will just always be jerks who don't care about dogs' welfare. I try to help adopt, and save dogs from getting hit (if its safe!) when I'm able.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks again Nicole. I learn a lot from you. I want to learn more about this as it will surely come up on conversation again. As for Dutch Shepherds, how many are there do you think in the U.S.? Are they in danger of being bred too tightly, or what are your thoughts on the breeding of Dutch Shepherds in the U.S? We have this helper who I think may really be a good helper, but he is the guy whose friend told him he'd better cull pups if he breeds a certain litter. My friend may buy a Dutch puppy that he already has, but he may want it as a stud later.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks for the video Nicole!


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gina, I have some loosely formed thoughts on the questions you asked. There's a few guys /gals that are actively posting who I think may be better qualified (more well rounded/knowledgable) to answer your questions, so I'd like to refrain from response. I'd like to hear what they have to say on the topic. If no one replies in a day or so I will share my thoughts ok?


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

No problem Nicole.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I think any breeding, whether of purebred registered dogs, unregistered dogs of known pedigree or just two good dogs should be done with care and thought and consideration for what each dog brings genetically and what you hope to produce, ideally with a goal in mind. 

I am not an expert, but the top sled dogs now are mixed breed Alaskans. Kennels have their own lines and track pedigrees, but the dogs are not a recognized breed, and do not have a uniform look. Performance is everything. Good feet, good eaters, temperament, and sound conformation are more important than ear set and tail carriage Skijoring dogs are big houndy pointer crosses with a touch of sighthound. 

Throwing two random dogs together to produce something with a cutesie designer name or just to see what you get is not breeding. Buyer beware.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Gina Mezin said:


> Enjoying my IPO group immensely. Curious about your views on one conversation we got into though. A member was cutting down a friend's friend for buying a $2000 labradoodle (for a pet). Most of our group jumped on the bandwagon.
> 
> I commented that the price seemed high, but what's really wrong with a crossbreeding like that if the breeder is A. Producing healthy dogs with sound temperaments and B. There is really a good market of responsible/educated buyers.
> 
> ...


The highlighted is a clue to why this convo even happened, Doberman people tend to be very snobby about "purity" and many are full of shit. 
I banged on for years about the need for an outcross in dobes and all I got was shit for it. Interestingly I have seen some of the most vocal on a doberman outcross page on FB now, so maybe the tide has turned, which would be nice. 

In reference to paying 3k for a labradoddle, i wouldn't pay 3k for any dog, like someone else said "fools and their money"


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> I think any breeding, whether of purebred registered dogs, unregistered dogs of known pedigree or just two good dogs should be done with care and thought and consideration for what each dog brings genetically and what you hope to produce, ideally with a goal in mind.
> 
> I am not an expert, but the top sled dogs now are mixed breed Alaskans. Kennels have their own lines and track pedigrees, but the dogs are not a recognized breed, and do not have a uniform look. Performance is everything. Good feet, good eaters, temperament, and sound conformation are more important than ear set and tail carriage Skijoring dogs are big houndy pointer crosses with a touch of sighthound.
> 
> Throwing two random dogs together to produce something with a cutesie designer name or just to see what you get is not breeding. Buyer beware.


This is my philosophy ^^

Also I don't think it unreasonable for a "professional breeder" to charge that kind of moolah, the work they put in is full time and so they need to be compensated as if they were working a "normal" 9-5 job and you can bet their hours are more like 7-11. I just wouldn't pay it, unless I too was a professional breeder and I knew that dog would make me that outlay back at least times 10.

Breeding "crossbred for purpose" dogs is really risky and I experienced this first hand with Tilly's litter. Very few people wanted to take the risk on a pup but after they saw how they turned out I get quite a few requests on whether I will be repeating it, interestingly not for the purpose I bred them for. I get the idea there was quite a few lurkers watching my litter some for good reasons as above but many more to jump on and attack when it was a **** up and are now conspicuous by their absence of voice. Which amuses me greatly.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks for your take Matt. Always appreciate it. Good to hear that a few Dobe breeders care enough about health (and more) to think out of the box. This Dobe breeder went on and on about the AKC standards like they were sent down by God himself, but then she dislikes American Dobes, so that didn't fit. I find it weird that even when Amercan's are importing all these European dogs that dogs a few generations out born in America are considered crap unless they are bred by the breeder you are presently talking to.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Sled dogs are a good example of really careing about function. Thanks.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Matt, I see what you mean by risky in that others won't trust your "vision". Glad people are liking the results.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I like what i see with those Donovan Pinschers, I didn't find out about them till very late in the day but it turned out what Dom is trying to create is basically the same as what i was trying to do, part of the reason I packed that project in tbh as I'll just wait till he has a properly set type then get one of them. I also like his Paterdon project.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Have a read of this:

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/an-update-on-the-genetic-status-of-the-doberman-pinscher


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Wow, Matt. Thanks for that!!!! Great, but sad research. Breeders of many breeds need to step up now! ALL breeders need to look at this.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Culling was mentioned so I will give my thoughts on it.

Dog breeds today are in serious trouble for one simple reason.

100-150 yrs ago dogs were bred for function. If those dogs didn't function at what they were bred for they were often shot.

Puppies born with physical issues were culled.

The big changes came during the Victorian era when the dog shows became more of a beauty pagent as opposed to hunters coming together and bragging about what their dog could actually DO.

Dogs, especially in the towns became pets instead of working dog and people started saving those puppies with health issues.

Those issues were often inherited and passed down to their pups, etc and the results you now see is as the Doberman article in Matt's post.

I doubt now there there is any breed today that is completely free of genetic problems. 

If a person is going to breed then they need to except that not all of a litter will make a healthy and/or temperamentally sound dog.

If not then they should be willing, at the very lest to keep those pups until they are old enough to be spayed or neutered.

One of many reasons that for being in dogs all my 71 yrs I've never bred any of them.

It's one hell of a responsibility!

I showed dogs in the breed ring for 15+ yrs and I saw to many thing that would make you toes curl and MANY of those dogs were later bred.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Even many breeders that are aware of their dog's issues wont change because it would mean starting over and fighting against the ridiculous interpretations of their breeds standards at best.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i also agree culling strengthen a line. it happens in the wild for a good reason. 

us humans might want to speed up mother nature's method, but here's an example of warped culling 
and i know it's true cause i saw it with my own eyes 

a guy i knew had a pet store and wanted me to get him some live vaccine, which isn't used allowed here in japan, and he thought i could score him some since i could purchase thru the Navy base system, etc etc

he sold ankle biters in a storefront window. i always wanted to check out his kennels so this was a good excuse to get him to invite me over.
- already knew he was a puppy farmer but had only seen the set ups on TV or the net, so he let me go check out his place

'undesirable' pups in every litter would be culled (aka: dead as a door knob) as soon as they could see what color pattern was developing ! 
- only the cutest color patterns lived
- he said it was necessary to save expenses and cut down on food, shots etc but of course never mentioned SQUAT about breed vigor or genetic improvement :-(((((((

unbelievable :-((((((((
- culling in the worst possible way !

the farm got shut down about a year later


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

took a long time since this was before the time cell phones had a camera feature


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Not to mention Bob, filtering through all the shit others have covered up. It can take years to sort that out. I also suspect it's why you see people doing these offshoot breed creations.

Any time money enters the picture there's room for corruption - that's just how it goes.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My first "show dog" Was a Kerry Blue. She had three cancer operations before she was 8 yrs old and I said "enough" and had her put down.

I told the breeder about this and her comment was "Oh, that goes back to her great grand sire. He was a cancer producing machine". 

I wanted to choke that ignorant bitch because nothing was mentions about ANY health issues when I got the dog. 

I've seen dogs that were given uppers, downers before going in the ring in order to "pep it up" or "calm it down".

I could go on forever with this crap!


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Been there... the cruelest lies are told in silence.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Culling was mentioned so I will give my thoughts on it.
> 
> Dog breeds today are in serious trouble for one simple reason.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Bob. In Germany, there was two line of thoughts on German Shorthairs. One said if you bred for form (structure) then the dog would be able to perform the function. Another breeder disagreed and bred for performance saying that form would follow. I forget how many years they did this but the first breeder failed miserably. He was breeding beautiful dogs but the dogs failed in the field work. The second breeder went on to be one of the foundation kennels of the GSP. Good working, healthy, structurally correct dogs.

Keeping excess dogs is a privilege of people who can afford it. Back in the day, people kept dogs to perform certain jobs. Today we have dogs without expecting them to earn their keep. 

I was down at NC State getting an MRI done on my dog. There was a bunch of King Charles Spaniels going in and out. I asked and the vet said they were doing a study to see if they could help reverse syringomyelia (which is a major breed issue due to the human changing the size and shape of the skull without regard for the size of the brain that has to occupy that space). They were doing MRIs and genetic testing to see if they would find dogs that were not carrying the genes for it. When I asked if they were successful, he told me "no". They were actually stopping the study early because they were unable to find a single dog that wasn't carrying the trait.
This went hand-in-hand with a documentary I saw on the breed in England. There was this breed champion that the owner was breeding to every bitch in sight even though the dog was displaying clear signs of the defect.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

definitely agree with all of the above

- unfortunately the handwriting on the wall has been coming for decades. less farming, less hunting and more urbanizing and high rising :-(
- more dog rights along with human rights. decreasing numbers and the PC watering down of protection sport rules haven't helped either. don't know the state of field trials for the bird dogs but we have a member who does if he joins this thread.

i've never been a big fan of agility, flyball and other 'inside sports', but at least they might help save some breeds from disintegrating. even dock diving and weight pulling might be legit alternatives to doing nothing. lure coursing probably falls somewhere in the mix too

people who look down on the fun sports because they aren't 'real' enough fail to realize they may be all we have in a few more decades even tho we'll still keep breeding the heck out of dogs and making more and more

hate to say it, but sooner or later some high tech geeks will probably come up with a fairly decent sniffer and the Chinese will produce em cheap enough to replace another K9 job :-( they've already started getting rich enough to create a huge new market for designer dogs :-(

sorry ...but the political comment was intentional


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Loving the responses guys! Like your comment Rick on how the fun sports could actually help in producing healthier, smarter dogs.

I'm still at blaming 90% of the health function problems on breed snobs. I think ethical culling (not normally killing!!) is being done and that can be good especially with all the problems that keep being created. Designer breeds as a whole and especially cross breeds with a working function are not a problem, but can be a help, and new breeds too.

The heart of the problem is what Bob said- the interpretation of standards trumps health and function for many show breeders. ......more later


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Mix breeds have health problems, too, as do badly bred purebreds, speaking as the former owner of a severely dysplastic Lab mix who didn't see his ninth birthday. 

I wonder what the ratio of well planned litters vs oops litters, puppy mill and bred for profit BYB litters is. I'd put most of the "designer dogs" in the latter category. 

Much as I support rescues (Adopt, don't shop) and the good work the reputable ones do, I am just as supportive of ethical breeders. I'm going to spend a lot of money on a dog during its life, I'd sooner pay it up front to someone who cares about what they're producing and stands behind their dogs, breed snob or not, than down the line in vet fees and trainers trying to fix what's genetically broken.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Agree with you for the most part Leslie. I just frequent the shelter and don't see the cutsey designer breeds there. With you on the oops litters. If the purebreds were in better shape so would the oops litters be.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Gina Mezin said:


> Loving the responses guys! Like your comment Rick on how the fun sports could actually help in producing healthier, smarter dogs.


Actually, rick doesn't say this at all. what he said was that it might prevent some breeds from disintegrating. Disintegration isn't the same as producing healthier, smarter dog. I take what he says is that it might prevent their downhill slide to oblivion by keeping some of their skill set functioning at some level even if minimally.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Right Sarah, sports can't help directly. You said it more clearly.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

BYBreeders love their AKC registrations. Most people aren't educated enough to know that their registration doesn't mean anything about a dogs health. What would the problem be with AKC requiring certain health tests? Would they just loose money, or are there reasons why this isn't feasable or would be negative? I understand that dogs have to be a certain age before hips can be done for example. But can't the AKC do things to help fix the serious problems that many of the breeds have?


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Pretty massive task for a registry to police every single breeder, every kennel, and every litter of puppies to guarantee that they are of a certain high standard. How would you do this? Who would pay for it? What happens if a registered puppy is not up to snuff? 

Better the buyers educate themselves on what a good breeder is, and what a well bred example of their chosen breed is. Won't happen. Too many people want a cheap puppy, or an off standard pup (blue Malinois), or the latest popular doodle mix, so there will always be a market for unscrupulous breeders. Besides, lots of people don't want a "show dog", so could care less about papers or pedigrees, or titles.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As Leslie said the AKC is but a registration body. They can fine or take away registration rights IF they get enoough complaints against a breeder but that's nest to impossible to enforce.

Missouri is one of the worst puppy mill States in the country but there are way to few inspectors to even get to all the complaints.

As to breeds being controlled by snobs the one that pissed me off was the JR.

The JRTCA (Jack Russell Terrier Club of America) does not register litters. It only registers individual puppies and that's only after they have passed a health check for issues that come up in the breed.

In the 90s a number of breeders decided to go AKC. 

first off the JRTCA sued the AKC because they didn't want the name Jack Russell Terrier being used and they won.

In the AKC the breed is now the Parson Russell Terrier and their standards have eliminated a number of things the breed is know for and it has become another cookie cutter breed in the AKC.


----------



## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

Bob Scott said:


> As Leslie said the AKC is but a registration body. They can fine or take away registration rights IF they get enoough complaints against a breeder but that's nest to impossible to enforce.
> 
> Missouri is one of the worst puppy mill States in the country but there are way to few inspectors to even get to all the complaints.
> 
> ...


Can you elaborate on what was eliminated? I have an issue with the lawn ornament dogs. The ones that look like the breed, but don't act like the breed. Or the owners who want a certain breed, but want it for the looks, not the characteristics.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm trying to embed the video but it may not work. If you go to the second facebook addy and scroll down a bit you can find the video. 

<iframe src="http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/breed-snobs-48985/https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FEricsson.stockdogs%2Fvideos%2F664083587095810%2F&show_text=0&width=560" width="560" height="315" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>


https://www.facebook.com/Ericsson.stockdogs/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf

https://www.facebook.com/facebook/videos/10153231379946729


Here's a good video of the difference with dogs loosing characteristics and becoming "ornaments".

"This video shows the importance of good breeding. You'll see the instinct of two different blood lines and even though one of the dogs is over 1 yr old and has been exposed to a lot of stock, she does not work near as well as the pup who has been introduced to stock only two times. Granted, the puppy was a more expensive purchase, but already she is able to completely control her the stock. Whereas the older dog, with even more exposure, is unable to control the herd and lacks the desire to bring them to the handler. The old saying, "Buy the best, and only cry once," is still good advise. If you are going to invest your money in a dog to help you in your work, look for good WORKING parents, spend the extra money, and get one worth its keep... You will be happier when it's all said and done!"

Although the first dog may pass a lot of herding instinct tests, if one of the farm dogs did this, they would probably be shot. Same if it was the neighbor's dog come visiting. We would classify this as chasing and harassment. Which means we get to shoot the dog free and clear. A dog chasing sheep like this would cause them to abort lambs. The second dog is clearly the better genetic line showing the right characteristics.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

the links dont take one to anything specific I'm afraid, which sucks because I really want to see them


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> the links dont take one to anything specific I'm afraid, which sucks because I really want to see them


let me work on this. I put the link up on my FB page but trying to get it to translate to WDF.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

on facebook, put in the name "Ericsson Stockdogs"

It should bring up his site. Right now the vid is playing at the featured choice. If it's just his whole page, then scroll down his page a bit past the puppy pics and click the video link of the one with a guy in a brown coat standing in a snowy field with a BC by his side.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=ericsson%20stockdogs

trying new link. appears to be working...


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks for the video!! Love that instinct. Love working BCs. I may be remembering wrong, but I thought I had heard BC people didn't like a dog that was mostly white because it looked like a sheep way in the distance. Seemed silly that one couldn't tell a dog from a sheep, but I don't know. Then, a Pyrenees was supposed to be white, so it didn't look like a wolf. Keeping color variation should be good for stronger genetics unless it truly interferes with purpose. Of all the breeds, a show line BC, really offends me. What's the point? Wonder if this whitish dog is classified as a border collie or isn't.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't know the breeding but I've seen a range. I think that color is more important to breed folks than working dog ones but I could be wrong. The whitish coat may not be the final coat. That was a 5 month old puppy, in a winter coat. Very fuzzy to my eye. I know with my shorthairs, I don't see the flecking or speckling until they shed out their puppy coats. Until then it's white hair and patches.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeremy White said:


> Can you elaborate on what was eliminated? I have an issue with the lawn ornament dogs. The ones that look like the breed, but don't act like the breed. Or the owners who want a certain breed, but want it for the looks, not the characteristics.


With the AKC they have narrowed down the height requirement, the coat type and registration of litters as opposed to each pup getting a separate registration after a health exam. 

The JRT works to keep the hunting ability in the dogs and at their working terriers shows the dog can earn what is called a Bronze Medallion.

That "show" category can only be entered if the dog has been witnessed and dug to by a JRTCA working terrier judge.

The dog had to have been dug to on at least three different quarries.

One of my hunting partners was a working terrier judge and because of that I've helped work many of the earthdog breeds. 

If this judge didn't like anything that went on with the dog then it didn't get approved.

My own JRT had what is called a "high toe" which was on of the toes (index finger on a human) that was so high as to look like a dew claw. 

A dog with this fault couldn't be "registered" but it could be "recorded" which allowed it to get certified on the hunt with a JRTCA judge and also enter the fun events at the working shows.

I was interested only in hunting so I didn't bother to even "record my dog although he had been dug to with four different quarries. 

As mentioned above about the Border collie

The true working border terrier club will register pups ONLY if thier parents are from working lines and have actually worked on stock.

The Border Collie can be registered in both the working registration and the AKC BUT the working people are so strong on keeping the line working that they will remove any dog registered with them that earns an AKC show CH (Championship) title.


----------



## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

Bob Scott said:


> With the AKC they have narrowed down the height requirement, the coat type and registration of litters as opposed to each pup getting a separate registration after a health exam.
> 
> The JRT works to keep the hunting ability in the dogs and at their working terriers shows the dog can earn what is called a Bronze Medallion.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Exactly what I mean. Does that make me a type of breed snob?


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks Bob for sharing that.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

First, thanks Jeremy for participating in the thread. I'm definitely not one of the more educated dog folks on here or the most eloquent writer, but I'm glad many still bring something out of my discussions.

Are you a breed snob as I define it by my limited cultural/ethical, educational, views? See my list at the end of this post.

NOT to get into a religious discussion, but first and foremost, I believe that humans do play a part in a larger plan to enjoy and care for creation. I think the huge level of diversity in the dog type animal is beautiful and lots of fun for many humans.

Culturally, I also give dogs more protection and a different type of value than some other creatures (bugs, fish, even cattle to some extent). On the other hand, human well-being and safety trumps that of animals for me. 

We all have our world views and personal preferences. Some qualify things by saying, "this is scientific," " this is biblical," or "this is just my philosophy.

A breed snob for me is someone who believes in any of the following:

A. Thinks a dog is just a toy to genetically manipulate to the point that it causes pain for the next K9 generation and it's humans

B. Uses a dog for work, sport, or show, without balancing the dog's happiness with their own........


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

C. Thinks that their breed club's standards are to be followed by all of humanity. Standards that have nothing to do with happiness or health of dogs, just personal preference. 

D. Thinks they are protecting their breed by keeping it's ownership within an elitist circle and not being open to new fans.

E. Doesn't think any new breeds or crossbreeds should be created. 
F.

Doesn't think that mixing other breeds into their breed is ever necessary, even when their breed is becoming pitifully sick.

There is my rant. Love you guys for reading, sharing and educating me.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jeremy White said:


> Thanks. Exactly what I mean. Does that make me a type of breed snob?


Nah. Everybody needs to have standards. If you're an unreasonable dick about it, then maybe :-\"


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Nah. Everybody needs to have standards. If you're an unreasonable dick about it, then maybe :-\"


I agree 100% on the need for standards.

Unfortunately most standards have to much wiggle room for breeders and show judges to decide how to interpret them.

When I was showing in the breed ring I kept records of what judges liked and disliked about my dogs.

Also in my records were what judges were a waste of time to show under if certain professional handlers showed up at a given dog show. 

You knew the dogs, the judges and pretty much the handlers before you got to the show. 

Lots of politics can be involved in the "game".


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I agree 100% on the need for standards.
> 
> Unfortunately….
> 
> Lots of politics can be involved in the "game".


Bob. Two things… if I may.

%. a game only exists if you agree to play it.
#. acceptance can be the key to freedom or an eternal thought prison.

No one is required to agree to either.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree to both. 

When I was showing, the politics didn't really start heavy until you got into the Specials class.

That means champion against champion. 

example

My male Border terrier was never beaten in the classes on his way to the CH title.

He never showed against more then 5-6 other Border at a time until he went to the National specialty.

He showed against and won over 80 other Borders and finished his Championship there and all three shows for that weekend.

NOW is wear the political "stuff" comes in because it's loaded with professional handlers.

Dogs that didn't even place behind me in the classes were now beating me although for a owner handler I did pretty good. 

I finished 5 different terriers, 4 different breeds to their CH but stayed away from the Specials class for the most part.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> NOW is wear the political "stuff" comes in because it's loaded with professional handlers.


That has a familiar "ring" to it…. [-(


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think that fits most of daily life. :lol::wink:


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i like your list Gina !

don't hesitate to make them long if you feel it's needed
as you know i don't mind long posts and it's usually an indicator that the poster has given it more thought rather than simply posting a "chat-like" comment 

getting ready to do a big photo shoot so i'll have to wait before commenting in depth. since it will involve dogs and models it has priority right now //LOL//


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Sometimes breed clubs can be their own worst enemy. There was a discussion between the Deutche kuzhaar club and some other shorthair folks. The DK folks were all "we are maintaining the breed standards for a working dog" due to requiring performance tests, hip xrays, etc. The other shorthair folks countered that they were breed snobs. That they were causing inbreeding and intensifying latent genetic problems because of the closed stud book. That if they (the DK) were really serious about being a performance club that ANY shorthair that passes the performance tests, the xrays, DNA test, etc should be allowed to register into the DK club.

Just from my point of view, I see the intensifying of genetic injury due to the closed club book. When you have to start listing in-breeding coefficients, IMO, you have a problem.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Very interesting controversy Sarah. At least booth agreed about the health tests and performance. I'm sure not familiar with the breed, but of course it makes me think of the separation of the Belgians over here. My Malinois breeder has Tervs born every few litters and she bred back to one recently, I think. Her longhairs have to be registered as Tervurens, but would never enter the show ring because their coats aren't long enough. I think I'd agree with you to accept both coats for the genetic diversity, but how far apart should different dogs in a breed get before they aren't like the same breed at all? Glad it's not my problem.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

I guess you sort of answered it with the in breeding coefficients. Yes, there has to be a line drawn for health and geneticists may be able to give breeders an idea to where. Soo far over my head.


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Rick, thanks for reading and your comment. Hope you have fun with your endeavor and hear from you soon.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gina Mezin said:


> Very interesting controversy Sarah. At least booth agreed about the health tests and performance. I'm sure not familiar with the breed, but of course it makes me think of the separation of the Belgians over here. My Malinois breeder has Tervs born every few litters and she bred back to one recently, I think. Her longhairs have to be registered as Tervurens, but would never enter the show ring because their coats aren't long enough. I think I'd agree with you to accept both coats for the genetic diversity, but how far apart should different dogs in a breed get before they aren't like the same breed at all? Glad it's not my problem.


Here in the States the UKC (United Kennel Club) recognizes the Belgain Shepherd (black long hair) and identifies the Mal, Terv, Lack as varieties of the Belgain Shepherd.

From my understand that is how it is in Belgium. 

If you think about ti the GSD and the Belgain 100+ yrs ago were very similar dogs. 

Again, because of the Victorian era dog shows started categorizing and placing standards on breeds as opposed to just being good herding dogs from this or that area of the world.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Gina
the shoot was at a dog friendly restaurant. owners are korgi breeders. i counted 28 on scene. some guests brought their own, but i noticed there were more in the back. i was too busy to try out the food and talk breeding with the owners, but did get to mess with the dogs for a few min after we finished.
- they wanted some different dogs in the mix so i talked my assistant into bringing mine 

was promised a free meal so i'll def go back and talk to them about breeding if you're interested in a Ja perspective


----------



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Sounds like it was fun Rick. I think corgis are kinda neat because of their spirit. My husband can't stand the look of them.


----------

