# Castration vs Sterilisation



## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

due to recent happenings in my surroundings, and due to a new book I got from a friend and old topic got interesting again.
Was wondering how this topic is precieved over here.

In short: In Germany amputation or removal of bodyparts/ organs are prohibited by law unless there is health issue. 
This includes Castration! 
Besides the fact of legality, there are certain health risks involved with a castration. and as I read through this book "Kastration und Verhalten beim Hund" by Sophie Strodtbeck//Udo Ganslosser there are some valid behavioral factors to consider. 
Sterilisation( cutting of ovary/testicle tubes), more comon is the Kastration, the total removal of the Organ/ testicles.
Years ago i took in a dog to get sterlilized and got it back castrated... I was in shock. My fault though I should have asked more questions. Besides that:
What is anybody elses opinion on castration vs Sterilisation. 
Why Castrate? What are the real health benfits? Are there real health benefits? Is it just a convenience at cost of the animal? Sterilisation yes, but we rreally don't want the mess of a bitch in heat? dominanz issues still a problem then??? Or is dominance fixable with a castration???!?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Long-term neutering health effects (both positive and negative) come about because of the cessation (or major reduction) of repro hormone production from surgical removal of the ovaries and the uterus, and surgical removal of the testicles. 

As far as I know (and I am not a health professional), ability to reproduce would be the only long-term health effect of tubal ligation and vasectomy. 


_"Why Castrate? What are the real health benfits? Are there real health benefits?"_
This paper is five years old but remains one of the most even-handed sources I've read on the long-term health effects of surgical removal of the ovaries and the uterus, and surgical removal of the testicles:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Interesting article.

For the breeds that I have, I have never had a problem. The bitches are spayed between 9 -12 months generally before their first heat and the boys are castrated at about 2 yo.

So far all have lived long healthy lives. I dont understand the whole obesity thing with spayed and castrated animals and believe that probably contributes to many of the associated health problems and orthopedic problems as it does in humans. I have always kept my dogs super lean and fit. It is not hard, I mean we control what we feed them and how we exercise them. 

I have had more friends with entire dogs lose them to cancers and several lose their entire male dogs to cars after escaping after a bitch on heat. So I am not convinced about the whole thing really, that is in my breeds. If I had an at risk breed, I might reconsider my options.

Where I live I have an added incentive, threat of wild dogs that will kill entire males if attracted by the scent of a bitch on heat. I can do without that drama.


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## Rachel M. Reams (Nov 29, 2012)

Both of my dogs are intact (Canaan Dog bitch and Rhodesian Ridgeback dog), and will remain that way. The CD because she will be bred as part of the conservation efforts for the breed, and the RR because after reading the various pros/cons, I have decided it's in his best interest to keep those hormones.

Under different circumstances, I might have a different opinion! 

The CD has gone through two heats, and I did not find it especially onerous to keep the dogs separated; I honestly don't know anyone who has a problem with keeping their intact dogs separated. It seems like it's a non-issue with the people who actually have intact dogs, but it's blown way out of proportion by people with altered dogs who are banging on the spay/neuter drum. Certainly it is a normal, accepted occurrence that there will be in season bitches at any dog show, possibly even right before your male in the line up, and your male is expected to ignore the bitch and get on with the business of showing, and that's exactly what happens. Obedience is frequently done in the same building as conformation, and with the same dogs/bitches. 

Here in the US, spay/neuter is the norm for pet owners and most non-conformation dog sport competitors; there are some AKC sports where dogs must be intact (they're not allowed to compete if they have a fault that would be a disqualifier in conformation). Very rarely do you hear of veterinarians willing to do a vasectomy in lieu of orchioectomy, or a tubal ligation in lieu of a total hysterectomy. I have started hearing rumbles about a zinc-based injectible being used in the US (previously heard about it in Mexico), which I am very leery of. All it takes is one malicious vet tech ...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I have 6 working dogs on my farm and I must say that I would find it onerus to deal with if they were all intact. As it stands I dont have to worry, seems out this way there are often oops litters where sheep dogs are intact, including several Dingo crosses. One of mine is from an oops litter and he was diagnosed along with several litter mates with mild HD so once he was matured off they came.

Interesting about the AKC sports, which are they out of interest?. Over here dogs can compete in all ANKC sports regardles of their status.

If you can responsibly manage intact dogs there isnt a problem. Trouble is most people I know with pet dogs have a lot of trouble managing entire animals. I remember when I allowed one of my bitches to have her first heat in suburbia, I had male dogs coming from far and wide scaling my fences. It was a right pain. I had to keep her in the house at all times unless I supervised her. Then just after the heat she got pyo and I nearly lost her. Put me off the whole thing.

Seeing as I have never had any health problems with any of the 40 odd dogs my family has owned over the years I will continue doing what gives me and my dogs the least hassle. The dogs recover so quickly from the surgery I dont see it as a big deal really. They would all get straight back to work the next day if I let them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mine are intact unless there is a problem. For a male dog, I'm much more in favor of a vascetomy than neutering.

T


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I have 6 working dogs on my farm and I must say that I would find it onerus to deal with if they were all intact. As it stands I dont have to worry, seems out this way there are often oops litters where sheep dogs are intact, including several Dingo crosses. One of mine is from an oops litter and he was diagnosed along with several litter mates with mild HD so once he was matured off they came.
> 
> Interesting about the AKC sports, which are they out of interest?. Over here dogs can compete in all ANKC sports regardles of their status.
> 
> ...


There are zero AKC sports that require the dog to be intact. Only in the breed ring do they need to be intact.

I know so many people, show and pet people, that have tons of problems with their bitches in heat. They have their other males tearing through doors and ripping through chain link kennels, trying to get to them. The males are barking and whining the whole time and many develop prostate problems due to the frustration. The bitches are smelly and messy. And I know way too many that came down with pyo and barely survived the surgery to save them.

I have intact males, no bitches, and they are fully capable of trialing with a bitch in heat, but that doesn't mean they would be fine to live with one.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Elaine Matthys said:


> There are zero AKC sports that require the dog to be intact. Only in the breed ring do they need to be intact.
> 
> I know so many people, show and pet people, that have tons of problems with their bitches in heat. They have their other males tearing through doors and ripping through chain link kennels, trying to get to them. The males are barking and whining the whole time and many develop prostate problems due to the frustration. The bitches are smelly and messy. And I know way too many that came down with pyo and barely survived the surgery to save them.
> 
> I have intact males, no bitches, and they are fully capable of trialing with a bitch in heat, but that doesn't mean they would be fine to live with one.


 
Ya know I currently have intact bitches and males as house dogs. My young male is crated next to a bitch in season. There's no smelly mess, barking, whining, clawing scratching, etc. For the last 20 some odd years we've had intact males with the girlz and there has been an occasional howl or off food for a couple of days--not much to pay attention to. "Too many" that come down with pyo?????? Really? In all my years amongst breeders and show people, this is still a rarity. Pyo and prostates can be management issues and more of a geriatric factor in most dogs. Herding dogs are expected to deal, regardless. I had Rhemy in the car last week with two bitches in full heat to work at another farm. We've had a month of bitches in season. He still worked his stock and he isn't lovesick and pining away. I lived in the city for 20 years and never had stray dogs tearing through or coving over fences. Many of my acquaintances have intact animals as well and its not the horror that you depict in your post. Again, its a lifestyle issues that is based on personal preference and a balancing of several factors.

T


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## Rachel M. Reams (Nov 29, 2012)

Sara Waters said:


> If you can responsibly manage intact dogs there isnt a problem. Trouble is most people I know with pet dogs have a lot of trouble managing entire animals.


Most people I know with pet dogs have a lot of trouble managing altered animals too. 

My experience and the experiences of the people I know who have intact animals is similar to Terrasita: There's no smelly mess and the males are manageable, not intolerable. Sure, the boys mope and whine, but they're not out of their heads. Although, to be fair, the first heat my RR had to sit through was pretty damn miserable for him; the second heat he just muddled through with some grumbling. 

I wonder if the difference is that he's been exposed to showing since he was six months old, so he had the opportunity to learn that just because it smells good, it doesn't mean that he's gonna get a piece of it? 



> I remember when I allowed one of my bitches to have her first heat in suburbia, I had male dogs coming from far and wide scaling my fences. It was a right pain. I had to keep her in the house at all times unless I supervised her. Then just after the heat she got pyo and I nearly lost her. Put me off the whole thing.


I fortunately haven't ever had to deal with this, and I don't know of anyone who has. It's a possibility, though!



> Seeing as I have never had any health problems with any of the 40 odd dogs my family has owned over the years I will continue doing what gives me and my dogs the least hassle. The dogs recover so quickly from the surgery I dont see it as a big deal really. They would all get straight back to work the next day if I let them.


This is good wisdom for anyone, whether they're keeping dogs intact or altering them.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ya know I currently have intact bitches and males as house dogs. My young male is crated next to a bitch in season. There's no smelly mess, barking, whining, clawing scratching, etc. For the last 20 some odd years we've had intact males with the girlz and there has been an occasional howl or off food for a couple of days--not much to pay attention to. "Too many" that come down with pyo?????? Really? In all my years amongst breeders and show people, this is still a rarity. Pyo and prostates can be management issues and more of a geriatric factor in most dogs. Herding dogs are expected to deal, regardless. I had Rhemy in the car last week with two bitches in full heat to work at another farm. We've had a month of bitches in season. He still worked his stock and he isn't lovesick and pining away. I lived in the city for 20 years and never had stray dogs tearing through or coving over fences. Many of my acquaintances have intact animals as well and its not the horror that you depict in your post. Again, its a lifestyle issues that is based on personal preference and a balancing of several factors.
> 
> T


 
My experiences are similiar to yours. Not that big of a deal. I no longer have any intact females though (put my last ol girl down this year  ). Whenever one of my bitches where in season, my males turned into monkeys, but still worked, still ate, didnt destroy anything, but I also am there to supervise. Whenever there is a bitch in season at the ranch, my boys still work as well.

I currently have a house full of intact males, and contrary to what Im told by the average pet dog owner, they dont piss on everything in the house, they dont fight, they dont break out and roam the streets...except for me, but this is about my dogs. 

Last dog I had that was neutered (not my choice...rescue) ended up dying from prostate cancer, and he was snipped at less then a year old.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

[

```
QUOTE=Elaine Matthys;366031]The males are barking and whining the whole time and many develop prostate problems due to the frustration. The bitches are smelly and messy QUOTE]
```
That is a myth, it has been proven that not breeding, over a period of years or not at all, is a normal thing in canid packs. And no prostate problems as a result.


```
bitches are smelly and messy
```
... no they are not, it is how they are kept that makes them smelly and messy. unless I misunderstood your comment?!? . 

as i said earlier i had no' concept' of castrations unless medically indicated before.
stray dogs happened but you kept yours safe and if a male made it out, you usually had a tag on him for the owner to retrieve him- or they were out looking for them anyways... maybe it is more inconvienient...but it works...
I have a dog having problems resulting from a castration. 
what concerns me is the missing hormones... they have a very delicate function in the body... they balance each other... I do recall a human having her uterus taking out, she got replacement hormones, why do humans and dogs don't?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> [
> 
> ```
> QUOTE=Elaine Matthys;366031]The males are barking and whining the whole time and many develop prostate problems due to the frustration. The bitches are smelly and messy QUOTE]
> ...


I agree with you. I have huge concern for keeping the doggie endocrine system intact for optimum health. 

T


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Ok, besides the regular concerns, i am working my way through the book.

It explains all hormones and the functions of it, not too technical but what they do and what they affect specialized in behaviors that could be named as a reason for castration.
Very interesting so far.

A bit further back in the book is a quik refrence and i though this might be very interesting for everybody. I know whitout reading the book it is a bit harder and there is not a real explenation but if one cares i am pretty sure one can figure it out. I do my best to accuartly translate:

"Kastration und Verhalten beim Hund"
page 148, 

Decition table for the quik reference


Behavior behavior expected after castration
Dog/Bitch


Hunting no improvement/in some cases getting worse

starying

if only during heat cyles improvements possible
generell  no improvements
Agression pending on hormone,brain interplay
individual analysis needed
Territorial defense

defensive: Cortisol regulated, exacerbation possible
offensive: like dominant behavior , little change


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's the book, I believe:

http://www.amazon.de/Kastration-Verhalten-beim-Hund-Gansloßer/dp/3275018205

If you Google the title _(Kastration und Verhalten beim Hund) _instead of clicking on this direct link, there will be a translation option.

I'm mentioning this because we can't post text from a copyrighted source (like a published book) without a link to the source.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Behavior expected behavior after castration

male

Food agression Cortisol regulated, exacerbation of behavior 

Fear agression Cortisol regulated, agrevation of the problematic nature

Jealousy partner protection) Vasopressin regulated, most likley no change 

defense of the young Prolaktin & testosteron regulated: no change or
exacerbation of behavior 

Status agression can improve, depending on Breed, if behavior is not saved 
,yet, as successfull strategie. Educational corrections 
necessary

Fear , Panic too much cortisol production: exacerbation of behavior

humping 

true sexual behavior possible improvement, if behavior is not,yet, pattern
movement stereotype depending on stress type ,no change or exaberation
as domince or in play no or little change
marking only over urin of "intact" female is a chance of betterment- 
all other , same





Bitch/Female expected behavior after castration

defense of the young Prolactin regulated

in cycle if it happens dureing the cycle, chance of improvement
outside influences i.e pregancy of owner, cuteness : outside influences, minmal change
jealousy (not sexual) no change

constant competing agression, with females/ all year loutishness: no change or exacerbation of behavior,de pending if is female
testosteron regulated

bitchyness exclusivly during cycle improvement

foodagression exacerbation of behavior

Fear Panik, stress sensitivity, fear agression cortisol regulated, depending on cycle time

and personality improvement possible, stays the same or exacerbation of behavior



that should help with some insight, I hope.....


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Here's the book, I believe:
> 
> http://www.amazon.de/Kastration-Verhalten-beim-Hund-Gansloßer/dp/3275018205
> 
> ...


 
thank you I appreciate it....


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I must say that my dogs except one have never had any behavioural problems, work well and are nicely focussed at trials. Any ortho problems were already there before they were neutered.

My mother had an ovohysterectomy after she nearly died in childbirth at age 34 and certainly never received any supplementry hormones then or ever. She is now in her early eighties.

When my bitch was in heat she wasnt messy so I didnt find that a problem, it was more the frustration of staving off other peoples dogs. 

I lived in an area where there was a high proportion of uneutered dogs and they roamed, there was also a high number of puppies dumped at the pound and bitches abandoned due to medical problems during pregnancy or birth. I worked in rescue at the time and they flowed in. 

Not all areas are the same so it depends and of course there are plenty of responsible people as well.

Many people I know who have multiple entire dogs out here keep them securely kenneled against wild dogs and separated from each other at all times. I dont have those facilities and my dogs are happy together.

I think it really just depends on a lot of factors and I have no problems with people keeping their dogs entire if they manage them well. 

I just wont be frightened into thinking it is bad for them, my experience just doesnt support this. I have had friends who have lost dogs to testicular cancer, breast cancer and ostesarcoma and all have been entire. My mothers current ex breeding bitch rescue currently as a soft tissue sarcoma. The obesity thing is easily prevented as far as I am concerned.

I have had a round with pyo and know of several dogs lost to pyo. It is certainly not uncommom according to vet friends and the dogs are often lost when their owners fail to recognise the symptoms untill it is too late.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I must say that my dogs except one have never had any behavioural problems, work well and are nicely focussed at trials. Any ortho problems were already there before they were neutered.
> 
> My mother had an ovohysterectomy after she nearly died in childbirth at age 34 and certainly never received any supplementry hormones then or ever. She is now in her early eighties.
> 
> ...


 
Sara,

Your mother is one of the lucky ones. Perhaps its a difference in gene pools but here there is plenty of documentation of increased cancer risk depending on age of spay/neutering. My take is that the study was done with certain issues. I wonder about a study of dogs spay/neutered late in life and incidence of osteosarcoma. Some things are incidental and some there is a occurence pattern. I don't think anyone tries to frighten anyone into anything. At this point, I go along with if you must, do it after growth plate closure. Placed a male puppy several years ago and they contacted me about neutering. They wouldn't have neutered him if I didn't consent. My response was that he was their dog. I see no reason to neuter him but if they must, after growth plate closure which is what they ended up doing. Failure to recognize symptoms is a huge part of several issues along with genetic predisposition and management. As for togetherness, mine care more about being with me than eath other. Rhemy isn't missing Khyndra one bit. So far with my dogs, intact have lived to 14-15, spayed/neutered 9-10 and lost to some cancer. As you said, our thoughts are based on experience.

T


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

I don't want to frighten anybody... 
I just am curious about other peoples opinions and my lack of experience or the bad 1 expereince I have with this...

As we could read in the other article that Connie S. posted, the book i read goes fairly close alonmg with this, a bit more extensive but these are valid points.

for me a preventive- for whatever reason -castration is kinda wierd. 
Granted pyo can't happen if it the organ is not there, but if one pays attention it can be not deadly...
I do not remove my appendix either, cause sooner or later it could burst and i die...

the thing for me with castaryion is, you mess with hormones, and hormones are not a single relay system, they interwine and effect each other. I expereinced thyrodproblems on my girl and belive me it gets expensive, causes more long term problems, then if i she would have been sterilized.

As i keep reading it has a tremendous affect on the brain developemnt, if early castration is done. I even was under the impression to wait atleast for the first cycle to end before -if at all- it should be done. this book refers to sexual hormans and their roll in brain developement/ and body deveelopement if done too early, and early for them means the adouldthood of the dog is not reached until after the 3rd cycle in females, and males of the same breed hit maturity at the same age.

I know also that growth plates need the maturing with the sexual hormones... there is so much. and now all the other information, testosterone as counter partner to Cortisol... more stress in my dogs life cause of castartion???

Retrospective i think I do scare myself, what have i done?! Not asking the questions, cause I was under the impression things are the same everywhere.... How much damge have I caused?!?
I will focus on the now, and eventhough this happened years ago, but still i like to know what all is effected. Research was little several years ago. now they are starting, I want to know.
Just because somethingw as doen a long time like this and it was not bothering anybody and worked "wel" for many others- doesn't mean it is right or a good thing to do....l


@ Sara Waters: For my clarification, why can breast cancer,ostesarcoma, and soft tissue sarcoma be prevented by castration???


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Good points, Kat.

One important point, IMO, is to differentiate between pediatric and mature altering when considering pros and cons.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Good points, Kat.
> 
> One important point, IMO, is to differentiate between pediatric and mature altering when considering pros and cons.


Mine have been spayed/neutered age 5-8.

T


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> [
> 
> ```
> QUOTE=Elaine Matthys;366031]The males are barking and whining the whole time and many develop prostate problems due to the frustration. The bitches are smelly and messy QUOTE]
> ...


How can my personal experience be a myth?! I am very involved in the dog world and have many friends with intact bitches and males, and this is their first hand experience. I would never own a bitch, much less an intact one. I have, however, boarded one that came in heat while I had her and it was like living with a stuck pig. There was blood everywhere and you could smell her a mile away!!!!!! 

Smelly, messy bitches are quite prevalent and just about every intact male I know that lives with a intact bitch has prostate problems and goes just about insane when the bitch is in heat. Most of my friends end up boarding out the male or female for the duration of the heat. 

I also personally know males that have ripped their way through doors in the house and even one that went through a chain link fence.

If you want to down play how unpleasant living with a bitch in heat is, that's your business, but it's not a myth and anyone thinking of keeping their dogs intact should be aware of this. There are homes that do fine and have no issues, but that doesn't mean that's the norm. People's homes are not the same as a wild canid pack and comparing the two is absurd.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> @ Sara Waters: For my clarification, why can breast cancer,ostesarcoma, and soft tissue sarcoma be prevented by castration???


Breast cancer can be reduced by speying a bitch at a certain age. Dont know about the boys and castration I doubt it has any effect at all. 

One of the points made was that the risk of osteosarcoma is increased by neutering an animal. The only 3 dogs that I know of that died of osteosrcoma were actually 3 entire Rotties, 2 males and one female.

People seem to have the idea that there are all these increased health risks by neutering an animal. I was just saying that I know plenty of entire dogs that have had health problems and cancers.

I also know that often people allow their neutered animals to become overweight and we all know that that can play havoc with health. 

I keep mine very lean and fit and so far they have all died between the ages of 15 and 17 with very few health issues apart from a couple of genetic ones.

I have also castrated all my male horses as colts and never had any problems with them either. Lived to ripe old ages and were athletic and competed in showjumping without problems.

Someone mentioned thyroid problems, well I have had thyroid problems and 2 of my friends have had their thyroids removed and as far as I know none of us are sterilised.

I dont believe in very early neutering. My boys are done at 2 yo and my girls between9 and 12 months and if they have a heat cycle in between so be it. Although I know many males and my family have owned males done at 6 months old, all our hunting whippets were done then, years ago. Now we would probably wait a little longer.

My longest lived dog was over 17 and she was done at 6 months old, and was proably the healthiest dog I ever owned, a true station bred cattle dog with tough genetics. 

I just think that too many people become worried about castration or speying and then find themselves struggling to manage their dogs with sometimes not good consequences. 

I have known, owned and competed with so many neutered animals, male and female over the years and I really struggle to see any major health issues that I dont also see in then entire animals I know.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Elaine Matthys said:


> I have, however, boarded one that came in heat while I had her and it was like living with a stuck pig. There was blood everywhere and you could smell her a mile away!!!!!!
> 
> If you want to down play how unpleasant living with a bitch in heat is, that's your business, but it's not a myth and anyone thinking of keeping their dogs intact should be aware of this. There are homes that do fine and have no issues, but that doesn't mean that's the norm. People's homes are not the same as a wild canid pack and comparing the two is absurd.


I think it depends. The one bitch I had come on heat was not messy. My mother fostered a Jack Russel bitch a while back and she came on heat and bled like a stuck pig. She was also pretty feral and my mum had her work cut out with that one when she was on heat.

From my own situation I dont like the idea of all 4 of my bitches coming into season at the same time.

I think if I had just males and no females I would not be in any hurry to castrate them. I would see how things turned out. 

I did leave my males for awhile, but both being the same age and one a rescue I left them till 2 yo and they started to become very aggressive towards each other and having females in the mix may not have helped. 

I had a couple of full on dog fights that required medical attention. To be honest castration has really reduced that tendency and they have a truce now rather than trying to tear each other to pieces the whole time. They now race shoulder to shoulder pushing and shoving, but what used to escalate into a full on dog fight now doesnt, it sort of fizzles out. If I hadnt taken in the rescue male I may well have left my boy unneutered, I dont know.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Elaine Matthys said:


> .
> 
> 
> > I have, however, boarded one that came in heat while I had her and it was like living with a stuck pig. There was blood everywhere and you could smell her a mile away!!!!!!
> ...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I just think that too many people become worried about castration or speying and then find themselves struggling to manage their dogs with sometimes not good consequences.
> 
> I have known, owned and competed with so many neutered animals, male and female over the years and I really struggle to see any major health issues that I dont also see in then entire animals I know.


Sara,

For some of us with intact animals, there is no struggle--management or otherwise. I don't know where you got the idea of thyroid=sterilization. It certainly is linked to a multitude of issues. You seem to have experiences with individuals who are incapble of manaaging their animals responsibly or is there some larger agenda involving the irresponsible pet/companion community. Regardless, it boils down to individual choice/prefernce.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara,
> 
> For some of us with intact animals, there is no struggle--management or otherwise. I don't know where you got the idea of thyroid=sterilization. It certainly is linked to a multitude of issues. You seem to have experiences with individuals who are incapble of manaaging their animals responsibly or is there some larger agenda involving the irresponsible pet/companion community. Regardless, it boils down to individual choice/prefernce.
> 
> T


Kat mentioned it in one of her posts, not quite sure what she meant but she mentioned sterilisationin the same sentence.

I think it is a larger issue among the pet community. Working in rescue I just saw so much irresponsibility. We once pulled a sack of 11 dead puppies out of a local river.

Yes I have know some irresponsible pet owners and also know several where their unneutered males could scale very high fences and were actually quite difficult to manage. One finally castrated the dog and the other who was against castration surrended his to rescue and it was then rehomed and castrated. That one was completely illogical (sigh).

For me it is because I dont want to attract in wild dogs with bitches on heat and because it is a personal choice. I have no interest in dealing with entire animals. If I thought the health risks were significant I would change my mind and manage them. But my personal belief is that it doesnt put them at risk.

I have absolutely no problem with people having entire dogs when they manage them responsibly.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> > Breast cancer can be reduced by speying a bitch at a certain age. Dont know about the boys and castration I doubt it has any effect at all.
> 
> 
> would you tell my what age and why you think it would be prevention?
> ...


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes I have know some irresponsible pet owners and also know several where their unneutered males could scale very high fences and were actually quite difficult to manage. One finally castrated the dog and the other who was against castration surrended his to rescue and it was then rehomed and castrated. That one was completely illogical (sigh).
> 
> For I have absolutely no problem with people having entire dogs when they manage them responsibly.


I understand your frustartion, and I really agree, it does not make sense. but besides the peronal preference don't you agree that a sterilisation might eb healthier to a dog then a castration?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> I understand your frustartion, and I really agree, it does not make sense. but besides the peronal preference don't you agree that a sterilisation might eb healthier to a dog then a castration?


Kat, my own personal experience would suggest that there is very little difference among the breeds that I am mainly associated with between neutered and unneutered males and females.

I have no problems castrating a dog once he has matured physically.

Your questions with breast cancer. It has been proven that the risk of breast cancer in a bitch increases with every heat cycle upto her 3rd or 4th, after that it makes no difference. Speyed before her first heat cycle she has a 1% chance of breast cancer.

In answer to your other question, I have met people who have been told that neutering their dogs will casue all sorts of health problems so they get scared. 

They are often people who have no concept of managing entire dogs and they dont realise how determined a male dog can be or they dont recognise a heat cycle untill its too late and their 9 month old bitch is pregnant to the dog next door, or their male dog escapes and get run over. 

Just working in rescue or reading the pet forums demonstrates this. I mean if you are going to leave a dog intact, you familiarise yourself with a dogs reproductive cycle and all that goes with it right? mmm not in many cases.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Sara, Yes, I again have to agree. But this is a problem of society, where the dog has to suffer from the consequences.
i know the image of the cute little puppy especially under the christmas tree or just to have a dog, but no purpose for the dog. i know all them stories...
for this thread i want to focus not on the stupidity of some pet owners, though... 

but on the facts of the difference between castration and sterilisation.
Fact is, that castration poses health threats. incontinence etc etc....
maturity is a hot topic as well. when is a dog actually physical mature.... brain developement goes, according to my information, through the 3rd or 4th heat cycle. something new i learned. 
but once again, sterilisation does the trick, and still allows the dog to mature... with all the hormones and all benefits. 
On a brighter note i have heared that one of the Vets in my area, has reached out to the local shelter in question of sterilizing the dogs rather then castrating them. There seems to be a changing approach.


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

Kat, I have had only one bitch in heat in my house - and I will never have another. I have a lot of friends in the show world where there is a high percentage of intact dogs and that's what I am basing this on.

The males can go insane living with the bitch in heat and not only is there the noise, but the prostate problems. Depending on the dog, it can range from minor hematuria to dripping frank blood and difficulty urinating requiring emergeny neutering.

There are a lot of smelly messy bitches and males with prostate problems out there and just because this doesn't fit in with your world view, doesn't mean it isn't true. And it always seems that people begin to compare the domesticated pet dog with wolves and wild dogs when they can't make their point. The domesticated dog hasn't been a wolf or lived like a wild dog in a very long time so comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.

Let's also not forget that the bitch is always either coming in or going out of heat, blowing coat, mental with hormones, and having false pregnancies.

I am strongly in favor of most folks, especially pet people, spay/neutering their dogs as soon as possible because most people aren't responsible enough to have an intact dog. For the well informed, responsible home, I don't care if they do this or not.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> but on the facts of the difference between castration and sterilisation.
> Fact is, that castration poses health threats. incontinence etc etc....
> maturity is a hot topic as well. when is a dog actually physical mature.... brain developement goes, according to my information, through the 3rd or 4th heat cycle. something new i learned.
> but once again, sterilisation does the trick, and still allows the dog to mature... with all the hormones and all benefits.
> On a brighter note i have heared that one of the Vets in my area, has reached out to the local shelter in question of sterilizing the dogs rather then castrating them. There seems to be a changing approach.


I guess I just disagree that castration (not very early) has major health conseqences. 

I have one incontinent bitch and she has a congential deformity of her urinary system there from birth. I have not had incontinence problems in any of my speyed bitches and I have had about 20 over the years. I realise though that it is more likely to occur in speyed bitiches usually later in life. I just havent had that problem with mine.

In short I just have not had any of these problems after castration. My dogs are well muscled and lean, they dont have lanky legs and narrow heads and their behaviour is fine. Any ortho problems have been there already prior to sterilisation and so far health has been excellent. 

The nearest I came to losing a bitch was from pyo - in the bitch with the congenital incontence problems when I decided to see if having a heat cycle would mature her urinary tract system and she had to have an emergency spey any way.

Very early neutering at shelters does carry concerns I agree. However they find themselves between a rock and a hard place so sterilisation may be a good option.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Elaine Matthys said:


> Kat, I have had only one bitch in heat in my house - and I will never have another. I have a lot of friends in the show world where there is a high percentage of intact dogs and that's what I am basing this on.
> 
> The males can go insane living with the bitch in heat and not only is there the noise, but the prostate problems. Depending on the dog, it can range from minor hematuria to dripping frank blood and difficulty urinating requiring emergeny neutering.
> .


 
The males wont go insane. 

The people in the show world would think my dogs are insane when they are just hanging out. Actually, they do think that, and I have been told that if they had dogs like mine, they'd put them down. Love the show world.

Only prostate problem I personally have ever seen was the dog I commented about, the neutered APBT who had prostate cancer. None of my intact males, none, have had prostate issues from my bitches in heat.

When i used to dogsled, we had over 40 dogs, one giant containment space divided in the middle. Boys on the right, girls on the left. All were able to roam free with each other on their side. All intact, never bred any of them. Collected on one boy named Blizzard who worked everyday during the winter up until 16. Never had a male go insane, never had a prostate issue. Once in the harness, we could put a bitch in heat next to an intact male and he could care less. .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> The males wont go insane.
> 
> The people in the show world would think my dogs are insane when they are just hanging out. Actually, they do think that, and I have been told that if they had dogs like mine, they'd put them down. Love the show world.
> 
> ...


I have had males that can be determined though if not crated or kenneled ..had one chew through both sides of a plaster wall.when I was about 20 years old and a lot dumber. interesting mix, Presa Canario male over Rottweiler female...

I agree though I never owned a neutered male dog and always had intact females around them without too much trouble..

But trust me once you breed a male a time or two, it makes a big difference with some dogs, as to how they will react..


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> But trust me once you breed a male a time or two, it makes a big difference with some dogs, as to how they will react..


 
I believe that. We studded out a BC a couple times. He changed, but nothing too drastic. He did, however, gain the ability to touch his ears together over the top of his head whenever he was near a bitch in heat. That started after his second breeding I think.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> I believe that. We studded out a BC a couple times. He changed, but nothing too drastic. He did, however, gain the ability to touch his ears together over the top of his head whenever he was near a bitch in heat. That started after his second breeding I think.


that is an amazing skill..  congrats


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Kat, my own personal experience would suggest that there is very little difference among the breeds that I am mainly associated with between neutered and unneutered males and females.
> 
> I have no problems castrating a dog once he has matured physically.
> 
> ...


 
I've also worked in rescue and right now deal with a neighbor who likes to bring home dumped cats for his barn and not feed them. Guess where they come when they are cold and hungry? I don't think you understand the point of Kat's thread; i.e. the best way to preclude the ability to reproduce: sterilization vs. castration. One will keep the endocrine system intact and the other does not. My vote if you must----sterilization. Mostly I have intact bitches for breeding although some are never bred so they are never spayed in the earlier part of their lives. I see no reason to sterilize or castrate a male. My working dogs are not rescues or washouts. They are generally selected from someone's highly regarding breeding program and bring a lot to the table so never consider spaying or neutering unless they wouldn't pass their health testing which hasn't happened either. My understanding is that your working dogs are rescues or a dog or two that didn't quite cut it for someone else but has worked great for you. These dogs are not wanted for future breeding so if you want to spay/neuter---understandable. Mostly when we are discussing issues on this forum we are not taling about irreesponsible pet people or puppy milliers who don't pick the breeding best or manage their animals. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I've also worked in rescue and right now deal with a neighbor who likes to bring home dumped cats for his barn and not feed them. Guess where they come when they are cold and hungry? I don't think you understand the point of Kat's thread; i.e. the best way to preclude the ability to reproduce: sterilization vs. castration. One will keep the endocrine system intact and the other does not. My vote if you must----sterilization. Mostly I have intact bitches for breeding although some are never bred so they are never spayed in the earlier part of their lives. I see no reason to sterilize or castrate a male. My working dogs are not rescues or washouts. They are generally selected from someone's highly regarding breeding program and bring a lot to the table so never consider spaying or neutering unless they wouldn't pass their health testing which hasn't happened either. My understanding is that your working dogs are rescues or a dog or two that didn't quite cut it for someone else but has worked great for you. These dogs are not wanted for future breeding so if you want to spay/neuter---understandable. Mostly when we are discussing issues on this forum we are not taling about irreesponsible pet people or puppy milliers who don't pick the breeding best or manage their animals.
> 
> T


Of for goodness sakes of, course I understand what Kat is talking about. My point is that I dont believe that as Kat thinks that the dogs are paying the price by being castrated instead of sterilised and leaving the endocrine sytem in place. That was the question she asked and my experience leads me to belive otherwise.

I would castrate my dogs regardless of if I thought them breeding quality or not. As I said over the years I have had many dogs all castrated and none of them have paid any price. They have lived long healthy fit lives, kept lean and well muscled and I have had some excellent quality dogs over the years. Not all my dogs are rescues I have one and one other that didnt cut it for someone else. 

I have a serious purpose for castrating my dogs, to reduce the chance of wild dog attack on them and my sheep. Many people have gone out of sheep in my area, one of the reason being wild dogs. 

I do this in the personal opinion that the chances of them having problems due to this is in my opinion not high. I have knowm many dogs both castrated and entire and frankly I have never seen a difference healthwise.

So I dont vote for either way. I dont believe from what I have seen about all the hype that castration is bad, not for my breeds anyway. Sure I dont believe in real early neuter and based on what I have read and not actually what I have observed over the years I now leave my boys till they are about 2yo.

Belonging to a working dog forum doesnt instantly guarantee that everyone is a resposnible dog owner so I dont need patronising on that front either.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My working dogs are not rescues or washouts. They are generally selected from someone's highly regarding breeding program and bring a lot to the table so never consider spaying or neutering unless they wouldn't pass their health testing which hasn't happened either. My understanding is that your working dogs are rescues or a dog or two that didn't quite cut it for someone else but has worked great for you. These dogs are not wanted for future breeding so if you want to spay/neuter---understandable. Mostly when we are discussing issues on this forum we are not taling about irreesponsible pet people or puppy milliers who don't pick the breeding best or manage their animals.
> 
> T


Actually both my kelpie and BC are from someone elses highly regarded breeding programs, both bred form top working dogs with multipe arena and utility wins and dogs working on very large sheep properties. I suspect in much more experienced hands and on a much larger property with a lot more work that my BC would be a wonderful sheepdog. As it is he is a good sheepdog despite my inexperience. I have no intention of pretending that I am something that I am not and my dogs are other than what I have helped to create.

None of that makes my opinions on this topic any less valid than yours.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

@ Brian McQauin: I want a picture of that ear skill!!!!

As i know, the only precaution we did at dogtraining was the bitches in heat, didn't come to training- or if granted to come were the last on the field. 
We also had play sessions after trainingw ith lots of mixed breeds and intact females and males, it wasn't a problem.
Someone said earlier the show dog people think that their dogs are nuts regardless - i have to think that person was talking about working dogs.... Cause mine are the same... most show people wouldn't touch a working dog or would deem them dangerous -cause they don't know any better!!!
Getting through walls and getting out of kennels and crates... well been there done that. Had a dutchie in training and he was capable of getting out of almost everything. And it was *not *related to females in heat. He was just very smart and active.

i guess in that part we agree, it is all about management.

Here is some more tid bits of compiled information about castration and it's effects on the body:

Metabolism: 
slows down; appetite decresing sexual hormone is gone, increased appetite- contary less need of energie. if you don;t watch the weight follow deseases like the metabolic syndrom can occure., diabetes and all the other things caused by obesity. that list is long.... looks like castrated animals need 30% less energy.

Incontinence:
all over risk of 30%, little breeds under 10% only .some breeds are prone regardless of weight. no difference if it is a ovariektomie or ovariohysterectomie. early castration often less incontinence risk, late castrated it increases rist of incontinence in wake and sleep phases

musculoscelatal system:

joint disfigurement, increased risk of HD- especially high risk in castrated dogs under 6 month;increased risk Anterior cruciate ligament injury, intact dogs get it half as much; muscle reduction and connective tissue especially in males due to less testosterone.

tumors:
increase of prostate tumors in castrated males, (three times more likely); increased occurence of perianal tumors in males in females, decreased in males. increased occurance of spleen tumors, some types of osteosarcoma and heart tumors; osteosarcomas more risk the younger the dog

coat:
increased ground hair in females, cause of missing testosteron males do get duller coat and more fluffy(puppycoat) some do even get symetric hair loss

brain and behavior:
cause of the missing oestrogen increased risc of age demencia; typical senior "diseases" like ability to orient themselves, social forgetfullness,increased nervousness, sleep troubles, increased agression due to changed performance speeds and nerve paths.
increase of cortisol based "behaviors" like fear stress thereof resulting agression (e.g castrated females: 60% increase of resource agression) , eleveated cortisol levels can lead to prone to infections, bad wound healing... less self asteem (missing trstosteron)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> What is anybody elses opinion on castration vs Sterilisation.
> Why Castrate? What are the real health benfits? Are there real health benefits? Is it just a convenience at cost of the animal? Sterilisation yes, but we rreally don't want the mess of a bitch in heat? dominanz issues still a problem then??? Or is dominance fixable with a castration???!?


I guess if I had to choose, I would choose sterilization over castration, but I prefer my animals keep all their parts and hormones. I don't believe the benefits of castration outweigh the benefits of allowing an animal to remain intact.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> @ Brian McQauin: I want a picture of that ear skill!!!!
> 
> As i know, the only precaution we did at dogtraining was the bitches in heat, didn't come to training- or if granted to come were the last on the field.
> We also had play sessions after trainingw ith lots of mixed breeds and intact females and males, it wasn't a problem.
> ...


It is also a matter of level of risk. If a dog has a 1% chance of getting a particular disease and this is doubled, still not a high risk.

It is also interesting to know how the assessments were done. Often the less desirable structures and genetics are castrated and the more desirable animals left intact which may influence the studies. Be intersting also to know the weight profiles and breeds of the dogs.

This is my experience with about 40 of my families dogs:

Metabolism - probably does slow although you would never know it with my lot. They eat like horses and stay fit and lean even my old girl. They do a lot of running.

Incontinence - have to say have never had this issue as a result of spey

Muscularskeletal. The only dog I have had cruciate problems in was a cattle dog bitch of poorer structure - straight in the stifle and allowed to get very overwieght while staying with friends when I was away for a long stretch. I know a number of poorly structured entire dogs that have had cruciate problems.

Any dog of mine that had HD or ED was diagnosed long beofre I castrated them. I believe genetics, breed, and as well as nutrition and how you exercise them early has a lot to do with this. An entire labrador for example is more at risk of ED and HD than a castrated whippet.

Tumours - fortunately have avoided these so far in all our dogs except for my motheres elderley ex breeding bitch (soft tissue sarcoma). Hope I havent jinxed myself now.

Coats - sleek beautiful and shiny, no fluffy dull coats here.

Behaviour - none of those problems. My seniors (15 -17) had all their marbles. The only fear aggressive dog I have had was like that from word go. I sterilised her at 12 mo but she already had a screw loose.
Castrating my 2 males has very much reduced their agression towards each other and my females have never been aggressive to each other, apart from the odd scuffle every now and then. In a stress environment, my super confident BC has shown no change since I castrated hime. My confident dogs have remained confident and my more timid dogs have not got worse.

Wound healing excellent and we have had a few from life on the farm


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> It is also interesting to know how the assessments were done. Often the less desirable structures and genetics are castrated and the more desirable animals left intact which may influence the studies. Be intersting also to know the weight profiles and breeds of the dogs.


 they have several resources listed, 
I found some of the studies, online:
focused on the english ones...though

regarding incontinence
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2762792
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787155


testosterone replacement .....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21441459

comparison reproductive parameter between wolves and domestic dogs
http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/...89CA8D1B57005BEFC?gitCommit=4.13.8-6-g6e31ff9

comparison of long term effect of ovariectomy and ovariohysterectomy
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9404289


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

IMO to many people look at spay/neuter as a cure all for a dog's behavioral problems or simply a convenience thing. They are training issues and rarely anything more. I've had intact males with intact females and never had a problem. The worst thing that ever happened is the males would go off their feed for a week or so.
I suppose if their was a real need I'd opt for sterilization.


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

I have one intact bitch and three intact males (2 of which have bred multiple bitches). I have never had an issue with them going nuts around bitches in heat. In fact my bitch is in heat right now and we had fun this evening doing down stays with all of them. I also show all of them in the breed ring with no issues. 

Personally I feel that if you expect them not to act like raving lunatics and get after them if they even *think* of acting like an idiot, you will not have issues. I have had people bitch and moan when I show my bitch in the breed ring when she is in heat. My response is that they either become a better trainer or get a smarter dog because there is no excuse for poor behavior in my opinion.

As to castration vs. sterilization, I have nothing to add except this video clip always comes to mind when I think of sterilization  

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nMQ50ZXV194


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> IMO to many people look at spay/neuter as a cure all for a dog's behavioral problems or simply a convenience thing. They are training issues and rarely anything more. I've had intact males with intact females and never had a problem. The worst thing that ever happened is the males would go off their feed for a week or so.
> I suppose if their was a real need I'd opt for sterilization.


Maybe some but not all as far as behavioural problems go. Most of my friends opted for neutering simply because as family dogs they didnt want the hassle of managing a bitch on heat with young children. So yes a convenience thing where they dont have to worry about the dog next door or the kids inadvertantly leaving a gate open. We all did lots of family camping trips with the dogs and there was never a hassle there either.

Same with males. In one town I lived as a kid was adjacent to farmland. Most farmers in this area had unsterilised bitches so there was always a bitch on heat somewhere. A wandering male let out by the kids was usually executed on the spot. I know because that is how we lost our only unneutered male, he was very very motivated by bitches on heat and my parents usually took great care all the time and took lots of measures with fencing, leaving him in the house when they were out etc, unfortunately when he was 5yo he was accidently let out by a visiting child, went after a farmers bitch on heat and was shot and the corpse returned to us. 

The neutered dogs owned by friends were usually well behaved and had very few problems. Just good all round family dogs. 

As to me now partly a convenience thing and partly because of wild dogs. I dont mind at all if other people are happy to manage their entire dogs. Me, I dont have the setup with the number of dogs I have, and my dogs are happy as is. I dont need or want to deal with it, have to set baits for wild dogs and risk my dogs, or risk my stock.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> IMO to many people look at spay/neuter as a cure all for a dog's behavioral problems or simply a convenience thing. They are training issues and rarely anything more. .


I agree, especially aftger getting all this additional information... most of the reasons why dogs are castrated are not fixable by castration or maybe even getting worse... But not sufficient knowledge made even Vets suggest this option. and lots of misinformation is still out there. Granted i do allready have a different attitude towards castration since i grew up with a different law background to it as compared to other areas of the world. 
so Castration was for me the last resort. Thus the additional info made even clearer, where it will improve things if necessary ,what additional risks it intails and when it is plain useless and counter productive.
And that it is often done for the conveniece of the owner.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Brian is right about the show world people and all the hocus pocus they carry on about.Yes some bitches are messier then others its normal.And yes some males from some lines are a lot more forceful in there determination to get to bitches and have known dogs that have basically injured themselves so badly they disabled themselves to get to a bitch it does happen and also sometimes it doesnt


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Brian is right about the show world people and all the hocus pocus they carry on about.Yes some bitches are messier then others its normal.And yes some males from some lines are a lot more forceful in there determination to get to bitches and have known dogs that have basically injured themselves so badly they disabled themselves to get to a bitch it does happen and also sometimes it doesnt


In the end comes down to personal choice. Convenience is a valid reason in my book if people know they dont have the resources to manage.

I have also read information and I have read summaries but have yet to find a well analysed trial that has biometrically factored in and accounted for all the variables. Having peer reviewed many research papers in my time it is amazing sometimes how poorly designed some trials are particularly if the researcher has a bias.

Anyway I think it will always be a much debated subject. I am happy with my choices and the health of my dogs and my convenience factor.


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