# SCH IPO GSD Real Pressure?



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have seen quite a few people post about real pressure, usually in the context of IPO, and sometimes in reference to various breed comparisons.

What is real pressure? anyone have even 1 video of it? or a description of it?

For instance, if someone says a particular dog, but cant take real pressure, what do they mean exactly?

what are we talking about here? pressure from the handler? the decoy? what?

please help, thanks..


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

There should be videos of dogs running away during trial, guess that would describe one kind of pressure sensitivity.


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## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

Pressure is in the obedience during protection. Self control. 
It isn't taking stick hits or fighting the helper, what good dog can't take a stick hit or the fight during the routine...the good dogs live for that.
Drive transitions and capping, is the pressure, IMO.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> There should be videos of dogs running away during trial, guess that would describe one kind of pressure sensitivity.



Look up video on the Sieger shows in the US. You would be surprised at how many dogs are ran with little to no "real" pressure. 

When even a halfway decent dog is trained correctly there is little "real" pressure in a trial. It's all been seen and worked out in training....or should be.
I think pressure is when a dog is exposed to what it hasn't been trained for.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Both Jane and Bob got it right.....
What the dog see's in trial isn't pressure, not if he's been trained correctly. What he see's in training, week after week, month after month, that's where the pressure happens. It's not the trial helper who applies pressure, but the training helper. 
Whether it's in the protection or the obedience phase, that's where you see the real dog, week after week.

Joby,
I think you have a lot of good ideas on this forum. I'll be PM'ing you soon (and the other respectacble PPD types on here) to pick your brains.
But for now, I know you've done it before, but please post your own videos of "real" pressure.
Derek


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

one simplified description would be any external influence (environmental, animal or human stimulus) that causes a dog to make a decision to either flee, fight or show avoidance. iow, pressure, just like beauty, is mostly in the eyes of the beholder. 

- i'm sure you know that, so are you thinking of a description that goes beyond that, Joby ? i take it your key word is the "real" part ??

maybe ... (for people who have no concept of this)... they might think any biting or barking is "fighting", when for most dogs that have been trained in protection, this is a form of play, or a trained response, because they see no pressure ?

or maybe ... very low levels of pressure just equal a "distraction" and are ignored because the dog doesn't need to make any decision in those cases ?

or maybe "posturing" is another option that should be included as a reaction to pressure ?.... more like "active avoidance", or "bluffing" ? clearly not avoidance but certainly not fighting either, and is showing weakness in the dog ... imo of course


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Derek Milliken said:


> Both Jane and Bob got it right.....
> What the dog see's in trial isn't pressure, not if he's been trained correctly. What he see's in training, week after week, month after month, that's where the pressure happens. It's not the trial helper who applies pressure, but the training helper.
> Whether it's in the protection or the obedience phase, that's where you see the real dog, week after week.
> 
> ...


Derek..or anyone else, a video of real pressure? training helper pressure?

I get the pressure of the OB, control and the stresses of the program. Just never SEE the REAL pressure that I see so many people talk about....

ANY LINKS? are they referring to the attacks by the helper?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I have seen quite a few people post about real pressure, usually in the context of IPO, and sometimes in reference to various breed comparisons.
> 
> What is real pressure? anyone have even 1 video of it? or a description of it?
> 
> ...


Personal opinion? To say real pressure would suggest there is such a thing as fake pressure as well.....

There is no such thing. There is pressure and the gradation of levels of pressure, the more unknown a certain situation becomes to the dog, the higher the levels of pressure are for the dog. 

Pressure is the highest in young dogs still learning and the lowest in trained dogs since they already have the training. (or at least that is how it should be.)

I'm not sure how to formulate it correctly but if you insist on speaking of real pressure I would go as far as to say the following: A decoy who has held back from applying real pressure on the dog, knowing it will run for cover as soon as real pressure is applied... So pretty much a building of pressure levels until the dog is strong enough in character to accept this so called "Real" pressure. And then still we are talking of pressure levels, not real pressure. But thats my personal opinion.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

The way I see it, In terms of pressure from helpers in a trial situation, there are varying degrees of it. Usually it appears more subtle and can be a bit more difficult to pick up from video. Of course there are in some cases, obvious differences. I was at a regional trial last year. To me it was the most obvious situation of a trial with a minimal amount of pressure. In the front half helper work, besides being slow as molasses, the helper never raised his stick one time during attacks, it was completely in prey, with obvious popping of the sleeve. Of course what made it obvious was that he forgot to raise the stick. Often you will see it not as obvious where the helper pops the sleeve a split second before the raising of the stick. Lack of pressure from the helper can occur with light stick hits as opposed to super heavy smacks that everyone on the field can hear. 

In the attacks out of the back transport, a lack of pressure is indicated by the helper stopping, and sometimes making a little sideways movement (prey attraction). 

In courage tests a similar thing can happen. The new rules say that the helper is not supposed to yell at the turn (which is really an attraction for the dog anyway. However the helper is supposed to do a loud yell an instant before the bite as the dog approaches. I have a good friend who is a national level helper. He says it is amazing the number of dogs that obviously have not seen intense pressure that will shut their eyes the instant the stick and the yell comes, as they are used to seeing it further back in the pursuit where it is really still a prey attraction for the dog. In addition in a trial situation the helper is supposed to essentially run through the dog, not stop a few seconds before the dog gets there(what you usually see) and make a sideways movement. 

A trial helper with real presence produces more pressure to the dog, than someone that just does not have it. Some of this is obvious on video, some of it you have to be there. 

In training a lack of pressure shows itself as a lot of jackrabbit type prey movement, especially sideways movement, on the part of the helper pre-bite. It also presents itself as popping the sleeve to signal the bite as opposed to the direct threat of the stick.

As far as posting vidoe, I watch a lot of it but don't collect it. I also know how hard it is to put oneself out there as a competitor so am not comfortable posting random video of trials of people. These folks have worked hard to get where they are at, even in cases where they trialed in situations that were less than a real test. At major events you should not see many examples of a lack of pressure but it is there if you look hard enough.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

The way I see it, In terms of pressure from helpers in a trial situation, there are varying degrees of it. Usually it appears more subtle and can be a bit more difficult to pick up from video. Of course there are in some cases, obvious differences. I was at a regional trial last year. To me it was the most obvious situation of a trial with a minimal amount of pressure. In the front half helper work, the helper never raised his stick one time during attacks, it was completely in prey, with obvious popping of the sleeve. Of course what made it obvious was that he forgot to raise the stick. Often you will see it not as obvious where the helper pops the sleeve a split second before the raising of the stick. Lack of pressure from the helper can occur with light stick hits as opposed to super heavy smacks that everyone on the field can hear. 

In the attacks out of the back transport, a lack of pressure is indicated by the helper stopping, and sometimes making a little sideways movement (prey attraction). 

In courage tests a similar thing can happen. The new rules say that the helper is not supposed to yell at the turn (which is really an attraction for the dog anyway. However the helper is supposed to do a loud yell an instant before the bite as the dog approaches. I have a good friend who is a national level helper. He says it is amazing the number of dogs that obviously have not seen intense pressure that will shut their eyes the instant the stick and the yell comes, as they are used to seeing it further back in the pursuit where it is really still a prey attraction for the dog. In addition in a trial situation the helper is supposed to essentially run through the dog, not stop a few seconds before the dog gets there(what you usually see) and make a sideways movement. 

A trial helper with real presence produces more pressure to the dog, than someone that just does not have it. Some of this is obvious on video, some of it you have to be there. 

In training a lack of pressure shows itself as a lot of jackrabbit type prey movement on the part of the helper pre-bite.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

The way I see it, In terms of pressure from helpers in a trial situation, there are varying degrees of it. Usually it appears more subtle and can be a bit more difficult to pick up from video. Of course there are in some cases, obvious differences. I was at a regional trial last year. To me it was the most obvious situation of a trial with a minimal amount of pressure. In the front half helper work, the helper never raised his stick one time during attacks, it was completely in prey, with obvious popping of the sleeve. Of course what made it obvious was that he forgot to raise the stick. Often you will see it not as obvious where the helper pops the sleeve a split second before the raising of the stick. Lack of pressure from the helper can occur with light stick hits as opposed to super heavy smacks that everyone on the field can hear. 

In the attacks out of the back transport, a lack of pressure is indicated by the helper stopping, and sometimes making a little sideways movement (prey attraction). 

In courage tests a similar thing can happen. The new rules say that the helper is not supposed to yell at the turn (which is really an attraction for the dog anyway. However the helper is supposed to do a loud yell an instant before the bite as the dog approaches. I have a good friend who is a national level helper. He says it is amazing the number of dogs that obviously have not seen intense pressure that will shut their eyes the instant the stick and the yell comes, as they are used to seeing it further back in the pursuit where it is really still a prey attraction for the dog. In addition in a trial situation the helper is supposed to essentially run through the dog, not stop a few seconds before the dog gets there(what you usually see) and make a sideways movement. 

A trial helper with real presence produces more pressure to the dog, than someone that just does not have it. Some of this is obvious on video, some of it you have to be there. 

In training a lack of pressure shows itself as a lot of jackrabbit type prey movement on the part of the helper pre-bite.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok we get the idea you don't have to repeat yourself dude ! ;-)

I think pressure from the helper is anything that isn't prey attraction.
'Real' pressure like others here have said is subjective to the individual dog and is a curve from no pressure to high pressure. What is high pressure to my Doberman may be only low-mid pressure for my Mal and may be zero to my bullies.
Pressure from the handler is IMO drive capping through obedience, for example my bullies of the past may have been able to handle oodles of pressure from the helper because they are full of fight and to them it's more of a release than pressure, the more 'pressure' applied by the helper the more they get into it. Conversely me not allowing the bite through obedience and drive capping is pressure from me to them because it is raising the stress level in them. You have to be careful because when you do let them rip after capping their drive the frustration release often leads to it being impossible to out the dog cleanly if at all, they manifest this pressure build up before the bite as basically going nuts, helicopters and such like. Sometimes the only way to out them is to press the base of their trachea to induce a vomit reaction, hanging doesn't work and flanking just makes them worse. Increase the 'pressure' = increase the reaction in them.
In fact if you and another human start pressuring each other, as in shouting/fighting etc you have to be careful Bumpy is not around because she's gonna bite one of you, usually the closest traget :roll:.

However my Dobermans are perfectly happy to sit and wait till I give the release because that is what THEY like to do, their obedience is in itself a reward and so they do not feel pressured by me capping the 'urge' to bite the prey item/helper (depending on the mode of agitation) at that instant.
This gives the impression of a dog that lacks intensity, but if you look carefully at them they are vibrating like a rampant rabbit and are eager for the bite, they just deal with the pressure of obedience more internally because they are not getting stressed about it.
So basically I think what I am saying in a very long winded way is pressure = stress put real stress on the dog and you are subjecting it to 'real' pressure. You will find it's 'pressure' limit, this is where the people say 'the dog can't handle 'real' pressure, dog is shit' what I say is 'the dog is fine, the trainer is sh*t' (assuming the dog isn't a nerve wracked pisser)
This can either be too much OB pressure which manifests a confusion or Helper pressure which manifests as weak performance of bite or no bite at all.

I think what you are getting at Joby is like me you just couldn't see any 'real pressure' in bitesports particularly IPO because if I have got this correct, like me you come from PPD where pressure is applied by the agitator much earlier and ends up more 'intense' than you will see in a trial, so you are basically desensitizing the dog to stress from an early stage in order that when it is time to face the guy in the bite suit bearing down with murder in his eyes/voice and a crow bar in hand, the dog isn't going to fold and run off/hide behind the handler. I think it is a major miscalculation in IPO as a temperament test for 'real working jobs' that this pressure is not applied properly in all cases.
I have been mulling on the idea just recently that a dogs ability to handle decoy pressure starts in housebreaking. If your gonna go apeshit over the puppy crapping on the floor/chewing the furniture/wrecking your shoes, your gonna teach the older dog that when a human is going off on one its time to hide/run away/get submissive.
I refer to this as breaking the dogs nerve and I have seen it happen in some of my own dogs in the distant past with good potential that will play the prey game with confidence but the hint of a raised voice, evil eye etc and the dog crumbles, they can't handle the pressure. This is obviously not the case for all dogs.

I have been watching some PSA videos and I have seen a higher level of helper pressure and OB pressure in protection than IPO trials and obviously your gonna see more of it in LE patrol dog training, military and PPD training and real life.

I have to say I am absolutely no expert on the sport side of things and am only just getting into it, so feel free to ignore this rubbish, lol.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Real pressure is when your dog gets run and someone elses didn't get run.

Your dog saw "real pressure". The other dog did not see "real pressure". 

This gives you something to say other than "the training of my dog sucked or my dog can't handle this and never will be able to because his genetics and my training and selection sucked."

It's all how the dog sees it through his experiences, not what we have to say about it. 

I'd like to see a video too. If I did, what we'd see would bother one dog and not bother the next dog. Then we would find out that "real pressure" is relative to the individual dog on an individual trial on a particular day. Not a specific such as "raising a stick" or "not popping a sleeve" or that "yelling draws a dog" vs. being pressure. 

I like Alices graduated explanation. Simple and concise.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> The way I see it, In terms of pressure from helpers in a trial situation, there are varying degrees of it. Usually it appears more subtle and can be a bit more difficult to pick up from video.


Steve, I consider myself fairly astute in picking up things in video, it is not much different than watching from the sidelines at the trial, and even moreso, I can play it 30-40 times, or in slow motion, if I have to. 

You are one of the people that I have seen use the term real pressure, more often than most people. Most recently when referring to videos that you mostly watch yourself...

*"I watch a lot of video on the internet. Mostly of training. 90% of what I see is a high level of prey attraction. I see very little real pressure."*

Why not give the rest of us the courtesy of showing a couple examples, as you yourself seem to be ok at watching the video and seeing the differences you are talking about. You see very little real pressure, in your words, so you have seen some of it, wiht real pressure, albiet very little, and also have put down the label of high level prey attraction to most of what you see, from the videos. I am guessing many of us can pick up on the same differences that you yourself can. So if you can see it on video, I think most of us probably can, even if we need a little explanation to see it under a different lense, and we might be missing it. SO, can you please just share a video link of what you are talking about?

_*I think this is where a lot of the fallout in the Mali vs Shepherd argument has occurred. The type of training described above is perfect for the Malinois. Face it what the person from Europe said about why Mali's were not used as much as Shepherds still rings true to a degree. You take a prey monster, but somewhat sensitive and a bit nervy, Malinois. You train only in prey. What aggression you see is mostly frustrated prey aggression. This is evidenced by so many Malinois looking a bit empty in terms of depth of power, especially in guarding phases. As long as clubs , adhere to a type of training (and in some cases even trialing) where a minimal amount of real direct pressure is applied, and use super high prey attraction in the work then the Maliinois is going to excel. Some of this even occurs in trials and to a degree major championships. Where they are really going to carry the day is in obedience. With their speed, willingness to please, and sensitivity you can train without much conflict. As a matter of fact you can train almost without conflict because just withholding reward (negative punishment), might even get you the results you want there. Even at a major championship level the amount of points difference (between a dog that is techically correct but empty vs a dog that has a lot of power, is not going to be great enough, to make a difference. This is especially true if the judge cannot tell the difference between a V and low SG performance to begin with, or if the powerful dog makes a few technical errors.* _

Your earlier posting about Mals, did not really ruffle my feathers so to speak, but did provoke some thought on the subject. I see the same thing you are talking about in regards to the mals you have seen, in other breeds, including the GSD in IPO training as well. You have laid out an opinion there, tossed in a quote from "a guy from Europe", and basically lumped all malinois into some kind of grouping that is lacking in some form or fashion, and even stated what is the perfect training scenario for Mals, vs. Shepherds..



> Of course there are in some cases, obvious differences. I was at a regional trial last year. To me it was the most obvious situation of a trial with a minimal amount of pressure. In the front half helper work, besides being slow as molasses, the helper never raised his stick one time during attacks, it was completely in prey, with obvious popping of the sleeve. Of course what made it obvious was that he forgot to raise the stick. Often you will see it not as obvious where the helper pops the sleeve a split second before the raising of the stick. Lack of pressure from the helper can occur with light stick hits as opposed to super heavy smacks that everyone on the field can hear.
> 
> In the attacks out of the back transport, a lack of pressure is indicated by the helper stopping, and sometimes making a little sideways movement (prey attraction).


got it, again not looking for lacking of pressure, just good real pressure..I get the subtly of the differences you are talking about above..



> In courage tests a similar thing can happen. The new rules say that the helper is not supposed to yell at the turn (which is really an attraction for the dog anyway. However the helper is supposed to do a loud yell an instant before the bite as the dog approaches. I have a good friend who is a national level helper. He says it is amazing the number of dogs that obviously have not seen intense pressure that will shut their eyes the instant the stick and the yell comes, as they are used to seeing it further back in the pursuit where it is really still a prey attraction for the dog. In addition in a trial situation the helper is supposed to essentially run through the dog, not stop a few seconds before the dog gets there(what you usually see) and make a sideways movement.


Yes I can imagine, there are plenty of dogs of all breeds that are not trained properly, GSD, Mals, whatever...I am pretty friendly with a couple National level helpers as well. Have been to see a few trials, and have seen a couple dogs actually bail on the courage test, and get around into the blind and lose their shit too, and those were strictly GSD. So the lack of good training is not just limited to certain breed types.



> A trial helper with real presence produces more pressure to the dog, than someone that just does not have it. Some of this is obvious on video, some of it you have to be there.


presence is presence yes I get it, but I still think watching a video is just as good as being there for much of it, unless you are the one working the dog, you are still just watching it. And with a video, it can be watching over and over, in slow motion, if necessary, so one could actually even say video is better in some regards.



> _In training a lack of pressure shows itself as a lot of jackrabbit type prey movement, especially sideways movement, on the part of the helper pre-bite. It also presents itself as popping the sleeve to signal the bite as opposed to the direct threat of the stick.
> _


yes of course..



> As far as posting vidoe, I watch a lot of it but don't collect it. I also know how hard it is to put oneself out there as a competitor so am not comfortable posting random video of trials of people. These folks have worked hard to get where they are at, even in cases where they trialed in situations that were less than a real test. At major events you should not see many examples of a lack of pressure but it is there if you look hard enough.


I was not asking for videos to be shown where there is a lack of pressure, I was asking to see a video or two, the shows the real pressure that you keep mentioning, a good example of it, so in sharing a link, you could just show us, what you are talking about it, share a good link, that shows good real pressure, I think most of us are fairly astute enough to find plenty of video that shows lack of real pressure on our own, I am just having trouble wrapping my head around the real pressure that you and many others keep talking about, the pressure that malinois cant sem to handle. You, I am sure, can find one video that shows what your are talking about...the real pressure. Hell just give a link to the best one you know of, or one of your own dog..Dont get hung up on showing lack of pressure, I am just looking for one with real pressure.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I'm also interested.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I'm also interested.


as are at least a dozen others...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

how do high prey/high fight Malinois that just see this pressure as a challenge fit into this discussion?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Personal opinion? To say real pressure would suggest there is such a thing as fake pressure as well.....
> 
> There is no such thing. There is pressure and the gradation of levels of pressure, the more unknown a certain situation becomes to the dog, the higher the levels of pressure are for the dog.
> 
> ...


I agree with this.

For me, mental pressure is a graded pressure which can only be given to the dog in the 100% form if the decoy has the ability to do this.

Very often you can feel this as a human being. The ones who worked with you fairly and correrctly, maybe shared a joke with you or, occasionally praised you, were the ones who had your dog sussed out. Often they nearly "trod on you" if you made a mistake. But, they got you and your dog to the highest you both could do.

They weren't your "must haves" at a party but invaluable as helpers and trainers. Mine were Sami Dubach, SC OG Wohlen and Alex Köpsel of Germany.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

How can we talk of ''real pressure'' if the dog has seen the scenarios or actions before? I would think that the assesment should be made of the dog in scenarios or threats that the dog has never lived and therefor isn't trained to react to.JMO
Mike


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike, I understand this but you would have to explain how this could happen.

Most dogs have been exposed to mental pressure from various ages, come what may.

How would you go about treating a "green" or, on the other hand "seasoned" dog?


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Gillian,
I only question the term of ''real pressure''. I don't consider it real pressure if there is a posibility that the dog has been conditioned by repetitve exposure to the same scenarios or actions.Therefor,a ''green dog'' would only fit that label if he has never seen the scenarios and we could then see the true unconditioned response.
As for the ''seasoned'' dog,why test it? If it has been tested before in this same manner you should already have a good idea of it's reaction to ''real pressure''.Any continuation would be equevalent to sport.
Hope this makes sense!
Mike


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I was not tying to imply that all Malinois are nervy. I was speaking in generalities that as a breed they tend to be more sensitive and in many cases more nervy than working line GSD (at least a well bred, good example of one). Of course there are nervy GSD's out there. So we are again speaking in generalities. 

In terms of a more sensitive dog, there can certainly be advantages as well to this type of dog. It can also be an advantage for some handlers to work with a more sensitive dog.

I don't have much time to search the internet at the moment, or for that matter even be on the internet. I need to prepare my dog for a trial and the tracking field is calling me.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

I know this is a step or two back in the discussion , but I dislike the overly subjective definitions that have been put forth.

Pressure on the dog becomes "real" as it approaches, or reaches, the level at which it becomes useful to the work. "Real" pressure then, is what occurs in the task to which the dog is applied, rather than being relative to how much a given dog can take or what he has experienced regularly and is conditioned to.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> how do high prey/high fight Malinois that just see this pressure as a challenge fit into this discussion?


 They dont exist. Only GSD's can have power and take pressure. His TD told him so.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

I do not want to de-rail the thread as this is interesting, but when you say "real pressure" I do wonder if you mean in the arena of sport dogs or true working dogs for LEO or military. 

From my less than tenured experiences, those who train for sport do not have to, and are normally unwilling to put their dogs in a scenario where "real pressure" could result in injury or worse to the dog....
On the flip side, police officers and military handlers may have no choice whether or not the dog is injured or killed while working.

I guess I am getting at, our dogs being slapped with rubber sticks is very different from a real attacker who may beat the dog with a ball bat or try to choke it out. Not trying to undermine the discussion, just wanting clarity since the topic can be so broad.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Shoot....scratch that and retract...I just read the damn title of the thread (Sch IPO). Sorry for the whoopsie, was in a hurry when I relied from the "what's new" section. 😜


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Not SCH/IPO, but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4 Real pressure?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Brian McQuain said:


> Not SCH/IPO, but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4 Real pressure?



That will go down with classics like "High Noon" and "Gun fight at the OK Corral". 
Also one of the best training routines to prepare for the confrontation.
" I've been napping and drinking coffee". ;-)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> Not SCH/IPO, but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4 Real pressure?


It was funny clicking on that link and seeing what came up...haha.

My opinion, yes. The dog saw pressure. From Don yelling to me just being there in his yard. He reacted accordingly.

On the other side of the coin, take a malinois that has had bad out training and watch it never want to release. In fact bite harder when corrected or forced. 

Nurture is huge in dogs. They don't do courage tests out of the womb.

Dogs decide pressure. Not us.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Also one of the best training routines to prepare for the confrontation.
> " I've been napping and drinking coffee". ;-)


 
I have adopted this training regimen and the results were nothing less then astounding. Im thinking about stealing it for my own and creating a series of dvd's, from "Foundation Training for Napping", to "Napfeine: Putting it all together." 

Sorry for the left turn off this topic. Proceed.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

What have you been doing to prep for this event?

*I've been napping alot, and consuming coffee*.... 


best part of that video


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

This guy is willing to say what pressure is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5drBt5goeo


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> This guy is willing to say what pressure is:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5drBt5goeo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVZPwf01fvQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbzwkMGb2ek

it is kinda of funny though, that they do not apply the same type of things to the dogs that they have trained, at least not in their videos...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I dunno I havn't seen any vids of dogs they have trained, just seems to be vids of them slagging off this MRAZOVAK K9 company.

I think the K9-1 company in NJ put some good pressure on their dogs.


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## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

This is pressure, not sure the dogs felt it, however....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D28HCSf_YSs&feature=youtu.be


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Yeah he's such a charmer...we had a woman who trained with us who went to this guy...said it was everything she could do to keep her husband from beating his ass once he saw one of her videos....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Yeah he's such a charmer...we had a woman who trained with us who went to this guy...said it was everything she could do to keep her husband from beating his ass once he saw one of her videos....


but he does bring real pressure to the dogs too right?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I've never seen a video of him putting pressure on anything but people...:roll:


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

I guess you guys didn't get enough of this in a thread over a year old that was locked, let's bring it up again. Get your bats out boys, this horse needs beatin'


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Eric Read said:


> I guess you guys didn't get enough of this in a thread over a year old that was locked, let's bring it up again. Get your bats out boys, this horse needs beatin'


Perhaps you should get off your knees and it wouldn't bother you so bad.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Jane Jean said:


> This is pressure, not sure the dogs felt it, however....
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D28HCSf_YSs&feature=youtu.be


 
LOL guys like this only get away with what you let them.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

Robbie de Jong as a back half helper comes close, he certainly scared me when I sent my little dog down the field, of course he is about 6'6"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLSVASe5h8 (2:10)

Here we are escorting him to the judge at the UK National in 2006 -


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I like the above video. Since Joby you are referring to IPO pressure this looks decent. Helpers are driving the dogs "down," if you will, with a good dominant, overbearing posture during the drive. Nice hard, audible whacks w/ the stick. Not many dogs see this pressure in training. Its all prey and fun back at the ranch. This type of drive will bring out a good amount of defense in the unseasoned. To the point where they may not out. Some may even run. I like the description of the new rules where the helper yells as the dog is flying through the air, just before the bite. That too will unnerve the right dog. There are also some things that can be done in the blind to "un-nerve" an unseasoned, not so well nerved dog. 

IPO can be soooo mundane sometimes. Very repetitive. No offense IPO people. I actually enjoy watching your sport and gazing at the top competitors. It takes a great deal of commitment to train and perform each of those components on the top levels. I'd love it every now and again if a club added a little flair. Bark and hold w/ the helper in the bushes, under a car or behind a tree. LOL. I'm sure dogs would like it too. LOL


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Louise,

You don't have to worry unless he starts to say "fe fi fo fum I smell the blood of an English (wo)man"


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Louise,
> 
> You don't have to worry unless he starts to say "fe fi fo fum I smell the blood of an English (wo)man"


LOL, now that would be really frightening!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Louise Jollyman said:


> Robbie de Jong as a back half helper comes close, he certainly scared me when I sent my little dog down the field, of course he is about 6'6"!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLSVASe5h8 (2:10)
> 
> Here we are escorting him to the judge at the UK National in 2006 -


Finally, lol. 
that was cool.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Zakia Days said:


> I'd love it every now and again if a club added a little flair. Bark and hold w/ the helper in the bushes, under a car or behind a tree. LOL. I'm sure dogs would like it too. LOL


Ahhhhh...yeah...that's called a training session.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Also called Mondio Ring


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

Zakia, you mean having fun in training, like in a barn or on a suit?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Louise I think we are giving out too much to the outside world. What are these people going to do when they finally figure out that what they see on the IPO field is only the tip of the iceberg?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Zakia Days said:


> I like the above video. Since Joby you are referring to IPO pressure this looks decent. Helpers are driving the dogs "down," if you will, with a good dominant, overbearing posture during the drive. Nice hard, audible whacks w/ the stick. Not many dogs see this pressure in training. Its all prey and fun back at the ranch. This type of drive will bring out a good amount of defense in the unseasoned. To the point where they may not out. Some may even run. I like the description of the new rules where the helper yells as the dog is flying through the air, just before the bite. That too will unnerve the right dog. There are also some things that can be done in the blind to "un-nerve" an unseasoned, not so well nerved dog.
> 
> IPO can be soooo mundane sometimes. Very repetitive. No offense IPO people. I actually enjoy watching your sport and gazing at the top competitors. It takes a great deal of commitment to train and perform each of those components on the top levels. I'd love it every now and again if a club added a little flair. Bark and hold w/ the helper in the bushes, under a car or behind a tree. LOL. I'm sure dogs would like it too. LOL


Zakia

You talk about the audible whack with the stick. These only happen when the dog is already biting the sleeve. Here most dogs do not feel the "whacks" which are really "touches" :lol: The pressure for me comes beforehand when the helper raises the stick before the dog has a chance to bite. I find this more of a threat to the dog.


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## Katie Karhohs (Oct 23, 2011)

Does it matter if the dog closes hes eyes from stick hits or impending stick hits? Does that have any meaning?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Katie Karhohs said:


> Does it matter if the dog closes hes eyes from stick hits or impending stick hits? Does that have any meaning?




I don't think it means much, in and of itself. But when accompanied by other behaviors it may mean something. Every dog different.


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