# Marble sized swellings??



## Stephanie O'Brien

One of my young mals has identical marble sized swellings on either side of his muzzle, above the upper lip and below the eye. Anyone know what this is? Im stumped as I have never seen it before. I took him to my normal vet months ago and asked him, he had no idea and wasnt of much help at all. Someone mentioned it may be salivary glands but Im not sure there are any in that location on the muzzle? They are painless, hard, and movable (feels like a marble) and they constantly change in size......sometimes they are gone, sometimes they are very noticable. This has been going on for months now and really bugging me. Any suggestions???#-o


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## Becky Shilling

Definitely NOT salivary glands; they located up under the angle of the jaw in the very upper throat area. Equivalent to the spot where your doctor squeezes your glands to check for swelling/tenderness. My first thought would be deep upper molars related swelling. You said, "young". Is he through teething comepletely?


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## Stephanie O'Brien

Thanks, I thought the same initially but didnt see any dental issues, neither did the vet. Also, its not painful to him at all and doesn't effect anything he does. He is just over 1 year old right now and I first noticed this when he was 7 months old.


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## Anne Vaini

Can you post a picture? If it's what I'm thinking, dogs usually have a very small, very soft "swelling" in that spot. I'm thinking tear ducts of something along those lines. 

Because it's symetrical on both sides, that rules out fatty cysts or tumors, right?


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## Stephanie O'Brien

Thanks, I will try to get a picture of it. Getting him to sit still is a bit of a chore lol.


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## Stephanie O'Brien

Ok I got a quick shot of the issue. Like I said, no pain, its movable (feels like a marble under his skin). They are around the size of a nickel. This picture is from today and they have been there most of the week. There are times when the problem is not visable at all and his face is pretty normal. Other times they seem to 'flare up'. I cant seem to find any correlation to food allergies, illness etc. He is very healthy otherwise.


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## Julia Norton VMD

Prob lymph nodes that are mildly inflamed. I saw a young Beauceron w this, told o not to worry. She panicked, went to somebody else and they biopsied it, just LNs.


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## Stephanie O'Brien

is there anything I can do about it? It is primarily a cosmetic thing but it gets annoying when I take him out and people constantly remind me they are there


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## Michelle Kutelis

Change his name to Marblehead..... 

I can see the problem, Stephanie, that would draw attention!


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## Lisa Maze

How odd...Villier had those exact bumps about two months ago. I guessed salivary glands or lymph nodes but no chart of the canine lymphatic system showed nodes there and the same for salivary glands. No other glands were swollen and he felt just fine, appetite, stool, and activity level were the same.

They stayed that size for about 3-4 days (I was terrified the blue dogs and cancer warning was true!) and then shrank back down to nothing.

They were annoying though,
Lisa


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## Stephanie O'Brien

Lisa, that pretty much explains what Im going through lol. I guess there just isn't much I can do. I'll just add it to his list of 'oddities'  Maybe its another CDH thing


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## Michele McAtee

I think there are piercing shops place balls like that beneath the skin...you could look into it. Perhaps when your dog is flamed up and people ask, you could just tell them its the first series in a project from X piercer guy...that you really love his work, a nice frame up around the dog's skull is your final plan.


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## Lisa Maze

When I saw that long nose and that expression I wondered if it was a CDH dog. Odd. Who are this pups parents?

Lisa


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## Stephanie O'Brien

Hahaha Lisa... yup, once you own one or two or three, you can spot 'em from a mile away! I absolutely love him though.....even if he is a 'marblehead' right now. 

ps- Lisa, pm me and I'll tell you his 'origins'.


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## ann schnerre

would someone enlighten me as to just what a "CDH" dog is? never heard of it before.


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## Gillian Schuler

Neither have I but lool:

http://www.cafepress.com/cherubs.224916750

I'm still none the wiser:lol:


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## Jamielee Nelson

Contes d"Hoffmann puppies?????


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## Stephanie O'Brien

yes.....its stands for Contes D'Hoffmann. I just hate writing out the whole name


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## Gillian Schuler

"Les Contes de Hoffmann" is an opera by Jacques Offenbach.....still curious

Is it something to do with the pups not having all their marbles or not


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## Michele McAtee

Perhaps you can call the breeder? Check with them to see if this is something they are aware of (if they don't know and are a repuatable breeder, they'd want to know, right?) or if there is anything you can do (IE: warm compress) something, anything. ? 

It does seem odd, some type of immune something or other. ?


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## Kadi Thingvall

I saw Philippe today and mentioned the swellings to him. He's seen them before on other dogs, and said a round of Clavamox has taken care of it. So if you haven't run him through a round of antibiotics yet you might try that.


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## Stephanie O'Brien

Thanks Kadi. Yes, I told Philippe about it before and he told me he didnt know what it was but to try antibiotics. When I saw the vet, he didnt want to give me any antibiotics.....i think it may be time for a new vet?? I havent been too happy with this vet lately.

Les Contes D'Hoffmann IS the opera and is also a Malinois kennel in France (named after the opera ofcourse!)


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## Lisa Maze

Skip the round of Clavamox and just wait the ten days it would take to complete the dose. In the abscence of other symptoms that indicate infection I would hate to add stress to an immune system that is already fighting something.

Oh, and come to think of it, Villier's poofed up when my BT baby had a case of kennel cough or something similar (the "sneezles" as we call it here.)

Lisa


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## Michele McAtee

If it were me, I'd probably insist on a blood draw during one of the episodes. If you have a baseline from previous draws, you can compare what's going on during an episode. 

That's just me, but it could possibly provide other information... ?

Is your dog vaccinated? Perhaps it's a quirky reaction to vaccination. As, truly, it is not if your dog has a reaction to vaccines, but when. Right?


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## Stephanie O'Brien

Thanks everyone. He has been a very healthy dog all along, never any issues other than emergency surgery for eating a toy when he was 4 months old and constantly busting his nose up on kennel door/gates. He is fully UTD on all vaccinations and never had a reaction to any of them, eats like a horse etc. He just looks ridiculous with his muzzle marbles


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## Maren Bell Jones

Fawkes has one on his left side. It swoll up (hehe) to the side of a grape tomato one day late in the spring, so I brought him to the teaching hospital. It looked like he had a puncture mark on both the inside (a little pus came out when the vet was palpating it) and a little bit on the outside. This may have been from a run in with Zoso or maybe he bit his own cheek playing ball or tug. :roll: He had like a week of clindamycin and it seemed to go away, but it's kind of back, but much smaller. I actually kind of wonder now if it is a blocked salivary gland duct. 

Btw, there is actually a salivary gland in dogs right under the eye but above the lips called the zygomatic gland (over the zygomatic arch):


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## Stephanie O'Brien

I guess it would be a salivary gland then. The zygomatic area is exactly where they are. I am very surprised (well, not really) that my vet had no idea what it was and was very hesitant to do anything about it. I'll give it a little more time and if they dont disappear, I'll be taking him to the vet but a new vet this time ;-) Thanks for the info!


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## Lisa Maze

I thought salivar glands too but the swelling were on both sides and so symetrical and round that I ruled that out. What are the odds salivary glands on both sides in the same place would clog?

I am still going with lymph nodes in response to fighting off the kennel cough cooties :smile:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Stephanie O'Brien said:


> Lisa, that pretty much explains what Im going through lol. I guess there just isn't much I can do. I'll just add it to his list of 'oddities'  Maybe its another CDH thing


Now that I think about it,maybe it is a Contes D'Hoffman thing as Fawkes is Mac's son and Viller's nephew, right? Hmmm...here's some real quick, not very good photos I snapped. On the side view, they are right near where he's got a few hairs.





























Stephanie, from the little I read, it's not all that common clinically and I had to review my anatomy to make sure where the dog salivary glands are, so I wouldn't totally blame the vet. Anatomy sucks!  But here's a little blurb on what it *could* be...maybe they all happened to get it from biting their own cheek or another puncture wound? That was my thought for Fawkes...

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23122.htm


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## Debbie High

They look like little wart hogs!!:smile: 

Debbie


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## Kadi Thingvall

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Now that I think about it,maybe it is a Contes D'Hoffman thing as Fawkes is Mac's son and Viller's nephew, right?


Mac and Villier are both "V" year dogs, but they aren't brothers, if that's what you meant by Fawkes being Villier's nephew. I do believe all the dogs share a common ancestor though.


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## Stephanie O'Brien

Debbie High said:


> They look like little wart hogs!!:smile:
> 
> Debbie


Well, he already acts and eats like one, he might as well look like one too! I'm just waiting for the tusks to appear :-o


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## Lisa Maze

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Stephanie, from the little I read, it's not all that common clinically and I had to review my anatomy to make sure where the dog salivary glands are, so I wouldn't totally blame the vet. Anatomy sucks!  But here's a little blurb on what it *could* be...maybe they all happened to get it from biting their own cheek or another puncture wound? That was my thought for Fawkes...
> 
> http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23122.htm




With Villier there was no pain, fever and sadly no depression! The merck manual description doesn't fit Villi's bumps at all and if it is uncommon for one to clog it has to be even more uncommmon for two in the exact same location to swell, doesn't it?

The CdH tie is odd though.
Lisa


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## Maren Bell Jones

Lisa, Fawkes didn't have the pain, swelling, or fever either, but did have the pus from the abcess on the inside (yuck!). Not sure what the likelihood of both happening at the same time. Maybe I'll ask on VIN...

Kadi, thanks for clearing that up! I couldn't find Villier's pedigree, so not quite right assumption on my part.


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## Stephanie O'Brien

My guy has no pain either. I manipulate the swellings and he just looks at me like he actually enjoys it. Go figure.


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## Lisa Maze

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Lisa, Fawkes didn't have the pain, swelling, or fever either, but did have the pus from the abcess on the inside (yuck!). Not sure what the likelihood of both happening at the same time. Maybe I'll ask on VIN...
> 
> Kadi, thanks for clearing that up! I couldn't find Villier's pedigree, so not quite right assumption on my part.


This is gross to admit but I feel ripped off...I didn't get any pus! Pus is gross but entertaining!


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## Maren Bell Jones

Yeah, it was definitely sufficiently gross. The vet had his mouth open and taking a look on the inside while feeling the nodule on the outside and some greenish yellow pus came out into his mouth. Fawkes swallowed it like no big deal. :-&:-&:-&


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