# Training to Focus on the Man



## Lyn Chen

What do you guys do to ensure your dogs don't become equipment oriented?


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## Tim Martens

TABLE TRAINING!!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I use the table to promote fight drive. All dogs have it, but only Tim and I can see it. Soooo, to schedule your seminar with us, (min 5 days) go ahead and pm me. Also have your credit card ready. For additional $$$ I can bring Edit* Santa Clause.


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## Andres Martin

Jeff...you're finally coming around. You can see the light! I helped to sway opinions a bit, so if you get attendees, I'll take a small commission. :lol:


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## Tim Martens

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I use the table to promote fight drive. All dogs have it, but only Tim and I can see it. Soooo, to schedule your seminar with us, (min 5 days) go ahead and pm me. Also have your credit card ready. For additional $$$ I can bring Edit* Santa Clause.


no, no, no. you've got it all wrong. very few dogs have it. only we can see it. the only dog around here that has it is mine. want to buy a puppy from him? only $1500....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You have to ask for 2500. Or, even better keep them for 9 months and charge 3500.

I forget the fight drive thing. Remind me before the seminar, so I don't screw it up. :twisted:


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## Jerry Lyda

DEFENCE....................


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## Jeff Oehlsen

This is sad. I get edited??? WTF is wrong with you people? I happen to have just had a real nice phone conversation with the guy, and then he gets to be Santa Clause?

OK, so back to reality. How old is your dog? What are you training him for? And can you show us videos of some work? (not so easy I know)

I need more info on the dog than the 0 you gave me to work with.


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## Lyn Chen

I was just curious about various people's methods, but if we'd rather talk about your newfound calling, that's fine too. :twisted: :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Still not telling me what you are training for. If it is PP then that is one thing, but if your dog is not real strong then there are different methods for doing this without crushing the dog in defence. If the dog is real strong, then no biggie. Just need more info.


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## Lyn Chen

Double post


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## Lyn Chen

The thing is I am merely concerned in getting the dog 'too equipment oriented' so I'd like to see what other people do before we do any actual work, sort of to educate myself before I jump in there and end up going to someone who'll do something stupid to him. I am hoping to be able to do PP with him, but because I also do obedience schutzhund routines I do drive work using Bernhard Flinks' method (through the video). He is very uhh--shall we say too drivey towards the item to the point that he'll shut down if it's so much as just lying there in the field. I have been working on desentisizing him with that by just pulling the tug out, dropping it in the field, and walking around and doing other stuff, but it's hard to keep his concentration during this time. I don't really know how he'll act otherwise, though he's barked a couple of times at people who've stared at him too long even though he's normally a quiet, not-so-barky type dog.

...he also chases after pine cones and rocks, so I'm REALLY concerned he'll end up becoming this type of dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Thats nice, but how old is he? Have you done work with him on a decoy? Many dogs seem to shut down and focus only on the prey item, so that is not that big a deal.

If you are worried about the equipment fixation, it has nothing to do with you and the drive work.


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## Lyn Chen

He's 11 months. Some work done on a decoy, only prey work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Well, first of all, there is no such thing as only "prey" work. Dogs slip in and out of drives according to what THEY are feeling at the time.

I am assuming that you are doing PP. At 11 months you should be working on his OB so that he has it down really well.

In the "old" days I wouldn't do bitework with a PP dog till 18 mo, but I worked the dog behind a fence, or at a distance at dusk, with the dog always winning. The fence allows more pressure. I kept at this until the dog was really confidant that he could kick the crap out of me.

Then, at 18 months after lots of work chasing off the bad guy, I would work the dog down the fence and then PRESTO there is no more fence and the dog gets a bite.


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## Andres Martin

Equipment orientation - In my Opinion - happens when a) dogs see the equipment as the only cue for biting, or b) more commonly, when the equipment is the prize.

So...here go some unpopular techniques...that help in preventing your dog from becoming equipment oriented:

For a)
1) Have the decoy agitate in prey if you wish, and then chase the decoy away without the decoy wearing any equipment. You don't need to go into defense with this, specially if you have a high prey dog. There's more stuff with this that's pretty useful...but it's long and can't be described. It can only be seen by Jeff and Tim...and only if they're given advance notice. :lol: 
2) Do night work with a threatening decoy...at a distance...and get the aggression on cue. Have the decoy move closer and closer as the dog gains confidence.
3) NEVER use a sleeve for training; use only suits.
4) Teach the dog about opposition, and that opposition comes from the man.
5) The dog ONLY wins via the decoy running away, or falling to the ground and/or remaining passive.

and for b)
1) NEVER feed a sleeve as a prize.
2) Never have your dog parade around with a sleeve in his mouth.

Also, in protection...you must not remain in a dog's comfort zone too long, as it is wastes time. When you train for protection, push the dog a tiny bit EVERY time. If you don't reach obstacles, you will not ovecome them.

So the basic concept for not making your dog equipment dependent, is to teach the dog that the "fun" really is on the man, not the equipment, and that victory is as it is in the canine world: The adversary either submits or runs away.


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## Kristen Cabe

My dog is very equipment (sleeve) oriented right now, but he's only been biting for a month or two total, so it's still very new to him. He hasn't really been worked in defense yet (he's just 13 months old), and he has been allowed to win the sleeve and parade around with it in his mouth - er....rather, thrash it around as I try to get him to run back to the crate with it. :roll: 

Last weekend, the guys threw all the sleeves and ect. around on the ground, and tried to get him to focus more on the decoy, but he was confused and basically ran back and forth barking at the stuff laying around on the ground around him, with the occasional bark at the man. 

Lastnight, they decided to see what he would do with the suit. He's never bitten anything but a sleeve, but he had absolutely NO problem watching the decoy AND biting the suit. No hesitation at all. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, use whatever you want to start out with, whether it be a sleeve or a suit or whatever, and then you can transition to the suit and/or no equipment at all as the dog matures and learns. Once you start doing defensive work with him, he'll start to view the man more and more as the thing to be watching rather than the sleeve. 11 months of age is still a puppy. Some already have good defensive drive at that age, and others (like Jak) do not. 

Just my newbie $0.02


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## Mike Schoonbrood

My trainer has trained many police dogs who have excellent street bite records and does 2 things that contradict what Andres said... 1) He uses sleeves for all the grip work until the dog is ready for suit and muzzle work, 2) Dogs win the sleeve as a prize and carry it.

There is lots of civil agitation when we work dogs, we'll toss the sleeve in one direction n continue to agitate the dog, if the dog chases after the sleeve then sting the dog in the butt with a whip n he'll quickly realize that the man is where his focus needs to be... it doesn't take more than 3 minutes to make a dog realize this, provided you have done civil work with the dog from the beginning. People get very weary of doing "defensive work" with a puppy, but if a dogs temprement can handle it, throw in some "challenges" while doing prey work, very quick, maybe 1 or 2 seconds, you're not threatening to kill the dog, but you're building a foundation to get the dog focused on the man later in their work. We have some very nice dogs at training who, if you were to slip the sleeve, they will spit the sleeve and come back at you... then we have other dogs who you can slip the sleeve and they will run around happily with it in their mouth, but they have bitten people for real.

My general philsophy is "there's more than one way to skin a cat"... dogs can see a bite suit as equipment too, but they never learn a proper grip if all they do is suit work... some people will argue that grip is only important for sport.... I agree with this to a certain extent, but a dog nipping at the end of the suit instead of jamming their mouth over the whole arm is gonna end up biting a suspects jeans or t-shirt in a real life apprehension, the full or 2/3 mouth bite is important to make sure someone really gets bitten, a dog hanging onto clothing is as useless as not having a dog.

Whatever works for you or your trainer is fine, but I wouldn't say there is only one way to do it, because it's been proven time and time again that there's more than one way  Some dogs are just equipment oriented, they seek comfort in the equipment and don't understand the concept of biting a real person, other dogs have no problem transitioning from sleeve work to civil work and couldn't care less what they bite, as long as they bite something.


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## Jerry Lyda

DEFENCE.........................table


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## Phil Dodson

I agree with agitating the dog and then chasing after the quarry repeating the exercise a few times before rewarding with a bite. We did this exercise with great results in the military. This worked for several of our equipment orientated MWD's.
I disagree about the suit. The suit is as addictive as a sleeve if not more. I have instructed at several PSD seminars over many years and have observed several dogs just as uncontrolled with the suit on as a visible sleeve.
I have always started my PSD's with the sleeve first, and once holding firmly and taking a challenge I then proceed to other methods, concealed sleeve, body suit, muzzle. I still believe in doing civil drive exercises to keep them profiient on the quarry not only for manwork but upon finding the quarry while searching also.


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## Andres Martin

> some people will argue that grip is only important for sport.... I agree with this to a certain extent, but a dog nipping at the end of the suit instead of jamming their mouth over the whole arm is gonna end up biting a suspects jeans or t-shirt in a real life apprehension,


A dog that does not fight and bite well TO BEGIN with...from day one...should not be "repaired" to go into street work. Sport dogs are another matter entirely.

Just today I decoyed a GSD specialty show here. Three dogs passed the "protection" phase with "pronounced". And they were "repaired" by me, including civil agitation. Their appearance was great, but there is NOTHING to back it up. NOTHING.

Civil agitation does very little except increase the probability that your dog will bite. Fighting teaches a dog to stay there. Read: PAIN. Read: suit work.

I think...(Reiner, sorry. I'm plagiarizing your phrase) :lol:


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## Andres Martin

Mike,

This...


> There is lots of civil agitation when we work dogs, we'll toss the sleeve in one direction n continue to agitate the dog, if the dog chases after the sleeve then sting the dog in the butt with a whip n he'll quickly realize that the man is where his focus needs to be...


 needs to be evaluated in the following light: what if I give the dog the sleeve, and then remain ABSOLUTELY passive. Again, What if the dog releases the sleeve, comes back to me (decoy) and I remain passive. Most dogs, when they're OFF LEASH and at a distance, will clearly prefer to prance around with the sleeve, or will approach the decoy with sleeve still in their mouth, or will drop the sleeve and aproach the decoy in confusion. The odd dog that will spit the sleeve and slam into the decoy, wanting to chew him up, would have done quite well biting the suit to begin with. The whip helps a bit, sure, but FOR ME...that is not the way.

I will readily admit that a decent trainer can get a dog to use his teeth on a sleeve...but you must also entertain the fact that JUTE makes "sticking" to the sleeve MUCH, MUCH easier. Training prey/play then defense is easy.

I train both "styles", regular prey work, then defense AND response to threats (defense) only...a lot. And I want MY dog to not have EVER been paraded with a sleeve in his mouth. The prize is the decoy down...or running away. This style of training is not suitable for marginal dogs or handlers.


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## Gregg Tawney

Andres - 

I think the bottom line is this....."a good dog is a good dog". I know....this is a brilliant statement. 8) 

I think you can teach a good dog grips on the sleeve and even let them carry it to get calmness and teach the dog to win through biting. I also believe that you can do this without ruining a good. I like to balance the dog with muzzle and table but the fact remains that a dog that is born with the desire to bite the man will not loose this desire simply by letting him carry a sleeve. As a matter of fact, all of my police dogs will carry sleeves and they have had success on the street. 

There are many police dogs that carry a sleeve in training and then go on the street and bite the heck out of the bad guys. Interestingly enough there are a lot of police dogs that only bite upper body in training and bite primarily legs on the street. Why, because they know training is just sparring. 

There are a lot of trainers that like to take credit for a good street dog when the fact is the dog had the genitics to be a strong police dog and the trainer did little to prepare them for the street. In reality the trainer should get credit for not screwing the dog up and that is about it. 

Case and point..........Tim's dog. It is an IPO dog that has carried many a sleeve. He did very little muzzle or civil work and he had no issues on his first few bites. He is a good dog. I have worked his dog and he is a dog that when in drive gentically wants to bite people. He was born with the desire to bite a man. 

If your dog is biting a sleeve or suit they can and will become somewhat fixated on equipement. It is inevitable. Just because they dont get to carry it does not mean that it is not a prey attraction. That is okay. That is why you select the right dog and follow up your training with muzzle and civil agitation. 

Gregg


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## Tim Martens

Gregg Tawney said:


> Case and point..........Tim's dog. It is an IPO dog that has carried many a sleeve. He did very little muzzle or civil work and he had no issues on his first few bites. He is a good dog. I have worked his dog and he is a dog that when in drive gentically wants to bite people. He was born with the desire to bite a man.
> 
> Gregg


are you saying my dog has "fight drive"?  \/ 

haha. just kiddin. so are we still on for woodward? haven't heard from you in a while. how is ROMBO. i really want to see him. what's your schedule this week? oh, shoot. just let me know via email or something so i don't further hijack this thread...


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## Reinier Geel

eeeee


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## Reinier Geel

*As for training grip and focus*, what about the run up to it, what is required before we can train this.

Yes I am of the option that they go hand in hand, (had a personal one on one with Bernard when he was visiting here and we exchanged some views on this), although we train to the same principle, we train from a different prospective, towards getting the same results. Namely: Grip and Focus.

_The handler has to be part and parcel of the training:_

Giving advice to people that have not trained bite work is like showing them pictures of Mars  they have heard of it but they have never been there, so it is hard to grasp the environment. The fact of the matter is, every dog is different no two dogs coming into man work will be trained consistently in one fashion, with one recipe.

_The handler must be responsible:_

I will not train any civilian that him self is not of good character and sound temperament  let alone his dog, I have seen these people get their training somewhere else, and it ended in disaster.

_The breed must sort into one of two attack trainable categories:_

The training also revolves around breed characteristics. With *working breeds*, are the fighters, and mostly very aggressive, especially if not well socialized as a puppy and young adult they tend to become domineering adult dogs, all around, with a will of their own. This behaviour transpires early on, with jumping up on people, growling,, and refusing to come when called, or lie down flat on command. These aspects are important indicators as to what to expect in bite training.

The other *herding breeds* are calmer and more suited for first time trainers; they tend to be less hardheaded and approachable. The German shepherd for instance could work dawn-to-dusk if they are fit.

With a few exceptions, working breeds are not suitable for first time dog owners without a commitment towards formal obedience training, and willingness to establish and maintain control over the dog, from the moment the puppy walks in the door.

_The dog must be well socialised and obedience trained, with no foundation you have no recourse._

Unpredictable movements and high-pitched voice can trigger prey drive, or fear, in unsocialized or poorly socialized adults of these breeds, so it is imperative to seek out a dog, with good temperament. These working dogs also must have work to do  or regular training to go to, or they can become destructive, and might even become uncontrollable.

Focus starts with this criteria: in place. Good advices have been given here, I am just afraid that someone tries this on their own accord, and then it all goes wrong.

*This is the good dog they are refereeing to * :evil: 

I think
:wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:I will not train any civilian that him self is not of good character and sound temperament  let alone his dog, I have seen these people get their training somewhere else, and it ended in disaster. 

If we did this here, all these internet sensitive pants would be denied dog ownership. I have never seen a bigger bunch of sissies than I do here on the net. Getting mad all the time........ha ha.


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## Gregg Tawney

By the way..........one of those sleeve carrying dogs that prance around just got another bite on a three striker (someone on Parole that does not want to go back to prison) last night. 

The suspect stole a motorcycle and after a pursuit he ran from police and was caught by Rico. The dog bit him in the upper thigh while running away. Both went to the ground and the suspect refused to comply for about two mintues. The suspect was taken into custody and recieved staples for the K-9 bites. He was asked in a post bite interview if it hurt when he got bit. He stated that on a scale from one to ten it felt like a 9.5.  

This is Rico.....

http://www.norcaldogs.com/rico2.html

It is all about selection................. 8)


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## Connie Sutherland

Wow, nice video clip! What a deceptive grin on Rico!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:By the way..........one of those sleeve carrying dogs that prance around just got another bite on a three striker (someone on Parole that does not want to go back to prison) last night.

I have had a lot of people talk about the whole carry/no carry thing in regards to this work. I could never figure out why that would make a bit of difference for a dog in a real-bite situation. I always figure it is gonna be up to the dog.


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## Matt Hammond

IMO time and training will take care of it for you. If you push to much hidden sleeve/suit you run the risk of a dog that loses the ability to target. Which could cause more problems down the road. 

If the dog is young then owrry about the basics right now. Get the dog biting/holding/carring/outing, then ince this is going good wokr on the equipment stuff.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:If you push to much hidden sleeve/suit you run the risk of a dog that loses the ability to target.

How so? In training, why would you not target the dog?


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