# just the command



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

A few of us trainers at our club tonight tried something that Bob Scott has brought up a few times, and we all failed to some degree: We each turned our back on dogs we were working with and gave a command that the dogs (supposedly) knew well. 

No one got the same level of compliance that we got when facing the dog.

One person said that this wasn't necessarily due to a loss of unnoticed body or face language -- that the dog just isn't immediately aware of being commanded because we are not looking at the dog.

BTW, no one had his/her own dog in this exercise.

Any thoughts about this?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I work like this all the time, in my opinion it is necessarily, to me if the dog does not do it, then he is not clear in his head, and that he does not fully understand what the command is or you don't have his full respect, if you keep working on it, you will be amazed at the reliability he will give you when you are facing him or when you are doing exercises in motion.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Work on commanding from all angles, voice inflections, places, and positions/distances (to include your dog not seeing you while you say the command)...and have other people command your dog and teach him to NOT obey. If you put in the time, you'll get the results you're looking for.

Position changes are good for ensuring your dog knows the verbal cue - by itself. Specially if you say stuff like, "Sit. Down. Stand. Down. Down." to make sure your dog is not anticipating, or trying to form a pattern, and that he understands the meaning of each cue.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> I work like this all the time, in my opinion it is necessarily, to me if the dog does not do it, then he is not clear in his head, and that he does not fully understand what the command is or you don't have his full respect, if you keep working on it, you will be amazed at the reliability he will give you when you are facing him or when you are doing exercises in motion.


Yes. We will not have a lot of opportunity to work much more with these dogs, who are a bunch of service dogs getting ready for certification and with whom we had only three or four meetings.

I saw the lower level of compliance, as you say, as lack of clarity. The dogs did all comply when they were clear that this was for them. :lol: 

It was interesting to me how dogs who knew their names and knew the commands didn't "hear" it when they couldn't see our faces.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:BTW, no one had his/her own dog in this exercise.

What was the point of this? Kinda defeats the exersize by using more than one variable, and at once.

Not really fair


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

In Schutzhund shouldn't there be an exercise where during the fuss you say "Platz" and keep on walking and the dog falls behind you?

In any case, I train a lot with my voice alone. While it is easier to teach a dog something by using body gestures, it is detrimental in the end...imagine having to point at where you want the dog to go rather than simply telling him the exact place. It is very inconvenient. Starting the foundation motivationally and keeping hands in pockets is a good way to get the dog acquainted with the voice command, and the voice command, alone. Sometimes I even have to use my foot to correct the dog. 

Later it's a matter of adding hand signals, the dog will catch to it faster than the other way around.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:BTW, no one had his/her own dog in this exercise.
> 
> What was the point of this? Kinda defeats the exersize by using more than one variable, and at once.
> 
> Not really fair


Oh. Well, we didn't have our own dogs handy when we thought of trying it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you were walking around just picking up peoples dogs out of their yards?

Where the "F" is your dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So you were walking around just picking up peoples dogs out of their yards?
> 
> Where the "F" is your dog.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: Yeah, that's the scenario.


These were other people's dogs. My dog was there, but on the sidelines, not being trained.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

> ...and have other people command your dog and teach him to NOT obey.


Good point. I was in a Schutzhund trial once where the owner asked the dog to heel, and the dog pressed himself against the helper's leg instead. After that I came home and did some obedience, and I had someone the dog was close to holding a ball and calling him and shouting commands. I had no ball and managed to hold the dog's attention. The first few times the dog ignored him, but then he got confused and started getting up when the other person called "Come!" and coming to *me* instead. It was funny but I put a stop to it...stay means stay. :roll:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Work on commanding from all angles, voice inflections, places, and positions/distances (to include your dog not seeing you while you say the command)...and have other people command your dog and teach him to NOT obey. If you put in the time, you'll get the results you're looking for.
> 
> Position changes are good for ensuring your dog knows the verbal cue - by itself. Specially if you say stuff like, "Sit. Down. Stand. Down. Down." to make sure your dog is not anticipating, or trying to form a pattern, and that he understands the meaning of each cue.


We are all going to do this with our own dogs. I hope that we get better compliance with our own dogs, but I am ready to be dismayed! :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: ...and have other people command your dog and teach him to NOT obey.

This is something to really think about. When I had Rotts, I had quite a few that ignored everyone but me. Sounds cool right?

Try leaving for a week and have the dogs ignore and harass to the point of dangerous your best friend.

OR, Try finding a kennel to watch your dog. 

If you have a dog with good drives, and you are just doing sport, you might want to not do this.

I can see teaching the dog to ignore the decoy. Cheating bastages


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff, for close friends the dogs know it's okay that they tell the dog stuff like "Get off the furniture," "Stop doing that," and so on. I just want to deal with the distraction of someone shouting commands while I want the dog's attention on me on the field. Basically the dogs follow me for formal commands, but it doesn't mean they don't trust other members of the family or listen to them.

As for leaving him in a kennel........I'd rather not go on a vacation. :evil:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: ...and have other people command your dog and teach him to NOT obey.
> 
> This is something to really think about. When I had Rotts, I had quite a few that ignored everyone but me. Sounds cool right?
> 
> ...


OR, since I was working with someone else's dog, that would've been a pretty bad plan. :lol:


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Years ago I read some article somewhere about a Police dog who's handler was hospitalized during illness or injury, don't remember. His dog would not eat any food given to him by the person watching him, may have been a kennel.Again I don't remember. But it turned out, that they decided to bring the dog's dish to the handler and have him run his hands through it to put his scent on the food. Then the dog ate.
Of course, I assume and from reading about the subject, it is my understanding that these dogs are trained to not take food from anyone other than the handler, so as to avoid poisoning.
So in my own personal opinion, I would like to see a dog have at least one other close person that they trust and will follow commands from in case needed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:As for leaving him in a kennel........I'd rather not go on a vacation.

I have worked in and run kennels and I do not understand this. I hear some bad stories, but the few that "supposedly" happened at a kennel I used to work at ended up being just that, stories.

And while I am sure that things happen, they are in the 2% or less catagory.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff, I'm sure you've met a dog who will have diarrhea from one single piece of popcorn. I'd rather not come back to a bloated dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Then again, probably should of been a cull. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

We have two good kennels in our area which take in Police and trained working dogs regularly. Both kennels follow the directions given about the dogs. There has only been one incident that happened but it happened because they did not know, nor did I how driven the dog was if kenneled. She was people friendly, so no directions about problems with feeding or cleaning kennel. Although, after my surgery, they told me she scaled the chain fence and up and over to the outside of the kennels. Luckily they also have an exterior property fence and noticed her out there and got her back. Then she was placed in the section reserved for aggressive dogs that has a climb proof roof connecting the the top of the chain run fence.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Then again, probably should of been a cull. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


With the amount of gas he emits, I think he might be.

Good thing I didn't pay full price for him. :twisted:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Like paying for a cull is less of a rip-off.   Ha Ha.

Beano works for dogs, although culling works too. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Nah, it's fine. He's a good bedwarmer if the fan isn't on. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:BTW, no one had his/her own dog in this exercise.
> 
> What was the point of this? Kinda defeats the exersize by using more than one variable, and at once.
> 
> Not really fair


 :roll: AW JEEZE! I think I'm gonna have to agree with this!
Turning your back AND using a different dog kinda null and voids the validity of the test.


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## Michele Moore (Mar 27, 2006)

I practice this stuff all the time. My dogs are getting really good at complying when I am laying on the sofa with a beer in my hand. :twisted:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

There's 2 kinds of kennels in Orlando that I know of.... fluffy playtime kennels, I'd probably be paying alot of vet bills for sticking Cujo into general population with other males... and the vet's that stick the dogs in a crate n let them out at 9am and 330pm for an on-leash walk. Many places won't take unneutered or unspayed dogs either for some reason, even a few places that keep the dogs seperated. I walked into one boarding kennel one day n the second I opened the door they all screamed at me to close the door, so I step inside with my dog n close the door, then they all yell at me all pissed off n tell me to get out. So I look down n there's this 15lb lil mutt just walking around the back of the office paying no attention to the door or Cujo n everyone was freaking out like the dog would bolt out the door or something. I walked to my car pretty pissed off at being yelled at for walking into a dog kennels office n never went back there. My 2 boarding choices are either dumping my dogs with my parents, or with my trainer in his kennel runs. Generally I time my out-of-town time with my parents being in-town since they travel alot, or if it's something drivable I'll bring the dogs with me n figure out where I can stay that allows dogs. Worst case I leave them in the truck with ventilation during the cooler season.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We have several boarding kennels on contract across the state. If a Trooper is on annual leave or sick leave, if he's sick enough, we pay the boarding. I don't allow them to keep a dog at a vet's office, unless the practice has a seperate kennel facility for sick and boarding dogs. We've been fortunate in having kennels that provide pretty good service to us.

DFrost


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> we've been fortunate...


Old Chinese saying: "Fortune is where preparation meets opportunity." :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I think I'm gonna have to agree with this!
> Turning your back AND using a different dog kinda null and voids the validity of the test.


I was commanding a dog I had been training...... not a stranger-dog. :lol: I didn't REALLY scoop the dog out of someone's yard.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'm gonna have to agree with this!
> ...


That makes sense then if you and this dog had been training together.
As far as scooping the dog out of someone's yard.................well...........consider the source of that comment. Nuff said! :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The dogs also have to learn to ignore other's commands.
For working with the dog to keep the decoy from commanding the dog, we do our courage test without holding the dog. The Decoy can call the dogs name, give him commands, rush him in a threatening manner (withing a certain distance. To close is unfair to the dog) whistle, whatever he can do to try and cause the dog to break. 
Our dogs sit at our side and wont go for the bite without the handler giving the command.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:As far as scooping the dog out of someone's yard.................well...........consider the source of that comment. Nuff said!

Some of the best dogs I ever trained came out of the backyard. Heck, look at G'Bibber. Found at a farmers house.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I was younger and lots faster over a fence I "scooped" a lot of pitbulls in this area.


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## Beth Fuqua (Dec 26, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> A few of us trainers at our club tonight tried something that Bob Scott has brought up a few times, and we all failed to some degree: We each turned our back on dogs we were working with and gave a command that the dogs (supposedly) knew well.
> 
> No one got the same level of compliance that we got when facing the dog.
> 
> ...


Hi Connie. This very concept came up at our training session last Saturday. Several of us are at the point of starting to work the sit/down/stand out of motion for SchH OB. For the actual field routine, the dog has to look at the "back" of the handler for quite some time.

For most of us in training here, the "reward" involves verbal praise, and also a favored toy (tugs for most, balls for some). Our trainer suggested that occassionaly rewarding the dog while the handlers back is to the dog helps with this. When he said that, the suggestion made tons of sense. Up to this point, literally all rewards have come from the handler while facing the dog, or at least facing the same direction (not opposite directions) as the dog. Why let the dog think that while handler is facing away, no reward is potentially forthcoming? That's the theory around here anyway!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yep, since I made that post, we have all been working with this (with our own dogs, as opposed to dogs we are training for someone else).

I like that reward aspect!!

I found this harder than I expected. My dog seems to think I am not talking to him unless I look at him.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The key to this is still in the marker. Facing or back turned, the dog still knows the reward will come when it gets the marker. :wink:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

so here i am, imagining connie and bob w/elastic headbands on that have a mirror mounted backward on it in order to know when to mark the behavior :lol: :lol: :lol: OMG, i DO amuse myself  

seriously though, it seems like you'd have to have either a contraption as above, or a partner in order to know when to mark. is that pretty much it? and where can i get one of the headband/mirror deals?


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## Beth Fuqua (Dec 26, 2006)

ann freier said:


> so here i am, imagining connie and bob w/elastic headbands on that have a mirror mounted backward on it in order to know when to mark the behavior :lol: :lol: :lol: OMG, i DO amuse myself


Ann, that is so funny! And you know what? Our trainer will be getting such a home made gift very soon.

LOL - When my hubby Gary first started doing longer tracks with Ferguson, he made this gizmo he called the "Track Master." It involved materials that ALL guys seem to love including 1) PVC pipe 2) Duct Tape and 3) Beer among some other odds and ends. The "Track Master" has a shoulder strap, a holder for the flags, and bag for the food, a holder for a beverage, etc.

Keep bringing on these ideas! I'll start an on-line SchH Gizmo Gag Gift store one of these days - you wait and see!


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Pups are placed on a downstay alltogether while watching their handlers walk away to the woods till unseen. After sometime, a handler may call his pup and only that pup must move to look for his handler in the woods. Once the handler sees his pup coming, the handler continues to walk away unmindful of his approaching pup and when he sees his pup catch up beside him, he praises his pup "Good Come" and continues to walk this time with his pup. The other handlers will do that as well. There's a continuation to this but this exercise alone shows complete recall on a pup by an unseen handler with just the voice.

This is a regular experience.

Best regards...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

When I was an instructor at the DOD Dog School, it was customary for the graduating class to put on a demo on graduation day. Generally there were 24 dogs in a class and the events were attended by quite a few people, friends, family and people local to the area. While preparing for the demo one time, as a young and quite cocky instructor, I was putting the dogs through their paces and generally showing off. Close order drill, to the winds, all kind of fancy moves. I marched them into a tight circle, again showing off for collegues. All was well until I told the handlers" Without your dogs, Forward March. I marched the handlers around the circle doing flanking movements etc, then halted the handlers. To this day, I don't know what possessed me to do it, but I then commanded; Recall dogs. Welll, I wanna tell ya, it was not a pretty sight. 24 dogs, all running to the center of the circle looking for their handlers. The ensuing dog fight was of epic proportions. I think I still hold the record for number of puncture wounds on dogs and students within a 5 minute (which seemed like and hour) time frame. A result of that incident was my first letter of reprimand in the military. I can still hear the Colonel saying; "What were you thinking". The bright side was, I also learned how to prep, clean and suture wounds on dogs. The graduation went on schedule. The dogs did look a little funny though with shaved spots with gentian violet and stictches all over the place. Ahh yes, somethings I have really paid the "stupid tax" on.

DFrost


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Take advantage of the pup's following instinct that way.  How about asking the pup to sit from a down stay while the owner's back is turned? I find most dogs would come to you easy enough, but the actual action combined with a voice command alone is difficult to establish IF it was not done in the beginning in the first place.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

David Frost said:


> When I was an instructor at the DOD Dog School, it was customary for the graduating class to put on a demo on graduation day. Generally there were 24 dogs in a class and the events were attended by quite a few people, friends, family and people local to the area. While preparing for the demo one time, as a young and quite cocky instructor, I was putting the dogs through their paces and generally showing off. Close order drill, to the winds, all kind of fancy moves. I marched them into a tight circle, again showing off for collegues. All was well until I told the handlers" Without your dogs, Forward March. I marched the handlers around the circle doing flanking movements etc, then halted the handlers. To this day, I don't know what possessed me to do it, but I then commanded; Recall dogs. Welll, I wanna tell ya, it was not a pretty sight. 24 dogs, all running to the center of the circle looking for their handlers. The ensuing dog fight was of epic proportions. I think I still hold the record for number of puncture wounds on dogs and students within a 5 minute (which seemed like and hour) time frame. A result of that incident was my first letter of reprimand in the military. I can still hear the Colonel saying; "What were you thinking". The bright side was, I also learned how to prep, clean and suture wounds on dogs. The graduation went on schedule. The dogs did look a little funny though with shaved spots with gentian violet and stictches all over the place. Ahh yes, somethings I have really paid the "stupid tax" on.
> 
> DFrost



Once I told new handlers to downstay their high-prey dogs and walk a meter in front facing them. Each dog was spaced about a meter apart (that alone was a feat) :lol: . Then I told the handlers to jump, stab the air and shout out loud. What happened next you wouldn't want to know. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

That's why you gotta proof the dog to respond to a release command alone during a stay...


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