# Defending your dogs...



## Julianne Ramanujam (Jan 15, 2013)

About two months ago, I was given a male malinois by an individual who found the dog too aggressive and couldn't handle him. From what I understand, the guy was intent on doing French Ringsport with the dog, but never joined a club, and at the first sign of aggression when he was a 5 month old puppy, the pup spent more and more time in the basement, kenneled, with no socialization, until he was ten months old and handed to me. I accepted the dog initially because a. I felt sorry for him. The dog was in a bad place. b. I didn't want the dog to go to someone who would exploit him. He was intact and AKC registered. c. I thought I could train him up and find him a good place.

So I did my best. The dog came around, and I was able to work with him, but I just couldn't get him past his defensiveness with other people. I didn't have enough resources - namely, experienced people to surround myself with. I also had school and work, outside of training this dog, so although I always dedicated a couple hours a day to working with him, those hours weren't always at the right time for everyone else. I did the best I could. He went through three different owners, two of them being previous military dog handlers, and he was returned to me each time. I had minimal, if any, support from the breeder. Yesterday, I made the decision to put him down. For the sake of my life, I cannot have a dog that no one else can, in the least, feed and water, and at this point, I don't have the facilities to support that. Making that decision was much more difficult than I'd imagined it. We had grown very close over the past couple of months.

I've made my share of mistakes during this whole operation. I wasn't fully prepared. I didn't make a good enough assessment of the time I was going to be able to dedicate to this. I didn't see my limits.

Before anyone asks, yes, I do have experience with the breed. I own one malinois, and I have been a part of Utah Protection Sports here for years, only taking time off for school, and prior to that, I trained with other decoys and clubs since 2005. 

But back to the point, I get the impression sometimes that some individuals think that breeding dogs is some kind of "personal" thing, as if it's as mildly provocative as a piece of art hanging in their living room. This sucks. These dogs are weapons. Shouldn't they be treated with responsibility and respect? Don't we place any value on these animals past the worth of our kitchen appliances? Or are they just another "thing to have?" I was out in Malad, Idaho and they've got 63 pit bulls that have been turned into their shelter from some homicidal asshole's art collection, and man, with the rising popularity of these dogs, are we going to end up in that direction too?

Would anyone be interested in developing a reliable method to screen and register owners and future buyers, that everyone in this industry can use and refer to? Or are there people doing that? Am I being naive and freaking out? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Thanks.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

How much of an effort did you make to find this dog a suitable home before you decided to PTS ? When this is your first post to the biggest Working Dog Forum on the Internet?
Is the dog dead yet?

Owning one Mal previously does not an "expert" make :-(

THREE owners in two months after spending how many months locked up with the original owner? Good Grief this gets worse by the minute. No wonder the dog is screwed up


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julianne Ramanujam said:


> ... But back to the point .....




Has the PTS decision been carried out?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I think the majority of breeders already screen buyers. I agree with Thomas, there are a number of people (appropriate) who would have taken this dog.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Also owning one mal really doesn't mean you are experienced with the breed. One of mine is laid back, easy, that almost any dog owner could handle. He definitely does not represent the breed well. People see him and instantly want one, and I have to explain they aren't typically like him.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm a bit disappointed at the fact the dog was put down after the stress it most probably has had to deal with in the constant owner switch.

Did the dog even get the time to really settle in? You say you had grown close to the dog yet it went to 3 different owners? 

I am sorry, going to be harsh now.... Putting a dog down because no one else can feed or water it? Other people should not have been your focus, the dog should have been! 

I can agree with one thing in your post. You sure did overreach yourself when taking on this animal and the dog paid the price for it. Really sad that it apparantly is so easy to have a dog put to sleep for something that might have been quite fixable to start with.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry. but it's hard to get a timeline the way you posted this ... how old was the dog when you decided killing it was your only option ?

as it has been pointed out, owning one doesn't guarantee you will be able to deal with other problems that come up with that breed, and being in a club might not prepare you to deal with the problem you described either. not to mention that human aggression should probably be worked out before you train for it at any level, so i don't get it ??

as others have also asked, is the dog dead or alive now ??

unless you just found this forum, i think you really needed to explain this situation in much more detail before you were making these kinds of final decisions

sad for you and sadder for the dog if it's dead already


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry, read it again a few times

it was about ONE YEAR OLD when you made this "decision" ???


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> sorry, read it again a few times
> 
> it was about ONE YEAR OLD when you made this "decision" ???


The decision was made yesterday, but it's not clear if the decision was carried out yet?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

The O.P. has left the board (via P.M.) for the present. She added additional info about efforts made but did not tell mods it was OK to share P.M. info.

I am assuming (I was not told) that the dog is dead, since none of the questions about that were answered.


Maybe this could turn into some kind of teaching/learning thread for others .... I don't know what else to say. :-(


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Just out of curiosity, could someone write me a list of experienced malinois owners who would currently take in dogs with serious defensive aggression or nerve issues?

Oh, and promise to not put them to sleep if they couldn't make them adoptable?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm not the type who really cares if a poster is a real person telling the truth or someone posing as someone else to stir the pot. but in this case i hope it was a pot stirrer :evil:

as far as any teaching value :
- MAYBE if people faced the reality and called it what it is, they might give it more thought ????

...one doesn't "put a dog down" or "put it to sleep" ... they KILL it. whether they stick a needle in it, or shoot it, or let a vet do the dirty work for them

might make the person saying it feel better, but i GUARANTEE the feeling isn't mutual on the dog's part ... it's D.E.A.D. ..... DEAD 

.... anyone else concur or do i just seem like i'm a cold hearted bastard ??


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Curious as I have no experience at all with Mals. Is being fear reactive towards people a common trait? It seems like I run across a lot of threads in which its alluded to and it almost seems to be an accepted thing? Correct me if Im out to lunch please.
IMO in GSDs the less fear reactive one's out there the better.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> i'm not the type who really cares if a poster is a real person telling the truth or someone posing as someone else to stir the pot. but in this case i hope it was a pot stirrer :evil:
> 
> as far as any teaching value :
> - MAYBE if people faced the reality and called it what it is, they might give it more thought ????
> ...


I concur .................


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> The O.P. has left the board (via P.M.) for the present. She added additional info about efforts made but did not tell mods it was OK to share P.M. info.
> 
> I am assuming (I was not told) that the dog is dead, since none of the questions about that were answered.
> 
> ...



When you voluntarily take responsibility for another living creature and then decide to KILL it. You should be prepared to answer some hard questions. Don't you dare come here after the fact, with some BS post trying to blame the breeder or anyone else. Then you throw out some plan to prevent the same thing from happening in the future? Here's a plan, if you don't have the experience or skill to deal with a problem/aggressive dog? Don't take responsibility for it.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

We may not agree with what she has done,but i will at least give her credit for taking responsiblity. So many people would have just dumped the dog at a shelter and called it good. I see that one all the time.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

eric squires said:


> We may not agree with what she has done,but i will at least give her credit for taking responsiblity. So many people would have just dumped the dog at a shelter and called it good. I see that one all the time.


+1


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

eric squires said:


> We may not agree with what she has done,but i will at least give her credit for taking responsiblity. So many people would have just dumped the dog at a shelter and called it good. I see that one all the time.


REALLY? She took a free dog she couldn't handle. Kept it for two months in which time she placed it three times and then killed it.
After she kills the dog then she comes to the WDF?
WTF didn't she come here for advise and help two weeks or two months ago? She failed this dog 100% :-(


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's a little more information. The OP has another WDF membership under J Ramanujam and has been a member since
12/07 so it's not like she wasn't aware of this resource. She apparently claimed she was leaving via a PM to Connie BUT both the old and new memberships are still showing as active.
My suggestion is ban both memberships. We don't need people like this on the WDF

http://www.saltlakemugshots.com/Mug...ujam/1030606-c03df91a62f26affcde18610557d57a8

I"m not willing to pay to see what the charges were. Maybe someone else has access to the arrest record?


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Sad really. I feel for this dog. Taught to fear people, then killed for it. Un-teaching fear is difficult surely, but not impossible.

Obviously the owner/handler was overwelmed, too bad she did not come here first.

Jeff.


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## Geneva Sieffert (Apr 15, 2013)

So sad.  I am sure that someone here could have helped or been willing to take the dog in before it was put down.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> The O.P. has left the board (via P.M.) for the present. She added additional info about efforts made but did not tell mods it was OK to share P.M. info.


The O.P. has requested (and of course received) reinstatement for reply.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> The O.P. has requested (and of course received) reinstatement for reply.


Which of her two memberships does she want reinstated?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, she included this to post for her if no reinstatement, and she has not posted (although she was reinstated, as mentioned above). So here is what she sent via PM.

QUOTE:
_
Thomas, I stopped using the forum because life had me. I was busy training in the real world and going to school. I got back on here a few months ago hoping I could meet some new contacts and glean some new information on training. When I jumped back in, I couldn't access my old account and the moderators decided to just give me a new account. 

My mugshot was taken when I went to jail for not paying a parking ticket. Unfortunately, I did not inform the cities I moved between that I was moving, I forgot to pay my ticket, and when I was pulled over a year later for not using a blinker at a turn, I ended up in jail for 7 hours with a class C misdemeanor. Life happens. Stop making assumptions about my person and character.

When I am able to, I will have that mugshot eradicated. As it stands, I have to wait.

Concerning the dog, I am sorry I cannot show you what I went through to save him. I had 40+ people come and look at him and I had to turn most of them away for being too inexperienced to handle him. A lot of others might have been good enough handlers, but didn't want to deal with him. The three that took him on, were people with real experience, and he was returned to me in under 24 hours each time.

The reason why I took the dog in the first place was because the individual who owned him prior had a wife who was about to have a baby. I could not convince myself to leave this dog with him, his wife, and his unborn baby. I could, at least, handle the dog.

I spent hours calling people, and I called and sent e-mails every single day, working to generate interest in the dog, sending out pictures and compiling videos to save him. Shelters and rescues turned him down, many of them telling me that he would be euthanized in their care. 

If he was going to be euthanized, I wanted it to be with the people he loved - myself and my boyfriend. It was a very difficult decision to make, and I hope that none of you ever find yourselves in this situation. _

END QUOTE


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I euthanized one dog because I didn't have the resources to deal with him, but that was a long time ago, long before rescues were so common and long before the internet was there to help me. I still believe I made the right decision (based on his age, health issues and history), though I wish I could have done things differently. 

I did a transport a few weeks ago for a 13 week old Malinois pup that had been rehomed to a family and wasn't working out. I was told that the surrendering owner had been advised by a couple of people, including dog trainers, to euthanize the pup because he was too aggressive. I met a sweet, confident, friendly puppy... wtf? Foster home thinks he's awesome and I'm thinking I would have kept that pup in a heartbeat if I had space.

I think there are dogs that are not right in the head, but there are far more that are just in the wrong homes. I'd be interested to hear more about the OP's dog and the decision to euthanize. No one in your training club wanted to help? The former military handlers - what was their assessment of the dog? They both took him on and then bailed... why? Why wouldn't the breeder take the dog back? 

Sad story.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I'd like to know who the breeder is. Whey didn't he/she take it back? Sorry, but we don't know how dangerous the dog was. She was in over her head. She tried three times to place it and it was returned so her screening abilities weren't working either. Granted, you don't rehab this type of dog in 2 months. Given his genetics and management during the formative periods, this was probably a tall order. Rather than see it in the wrong hands, and worse, it hurt someone--maybe she considered the best option since she didn't have the resources or knowledge to work with the dog. The irony is that she wasn't any more an ideal person for the dog than the first owner. I'm the kind of person that as long as it doesn't want to bite the human hands that feed it, the rest we will deal with. However, everyone has their limits. I don't think we know enough about the dog and what happened with the placements to really judge.

T


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> When you voluntarily take responsibility for another living creature and then decide to KILL it. You should be prepared to answer some hard questions. Don't you dare come here after the fact, with some BS post trying to blame the breeder or anyone else. Then you throw out some plan to prevent the same thing from happening in the future? Here's a plan, if you don't have the experience or skill to deal with a problem/aggressive dog? Don't take responsibility for it.


I have also been naive and "rescued" working dogs. And I have come to realize that not every dog deserves chance after chance after chance. Some dogs will never be at peace until they get the blue juice. 

I have taken in dogs because I felt bad for the dog and the owners. And my husband has been attacked, my mother so badly she needed surgery to reconstruct part of her arm, my property has been damaged, my own dogs have been hurt and I have been left feeling frustrated. 

I would not and will not do it again. The stress on my family and my life was unbearable. 

But my ethics wouldn't let me place the dogs in homes that couldn't handle them, and quite frankly there are NOT that many homes that can handle dogs like that. And very few ppl holding their hands out to offer help. 

There are too many good dogs, stable dogs out there. Sometimes it is just not worth the fight. The world can not be saved and every dog does not deserve to be saved.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Just out of curiosity, could someone write me a list of experienced malinois owners who would currently take in dogs with serious defensive aggression or nerve issues?
> 
> Oh, and promise to not put them to sleep if they couldn't make them adoptable?



I took in three last year, and have a nerve bag bitch here that will likely stay unless the perfect home comes up. One was pure hell, the other two typical mals in the wrong place. 

Currently, that's on hold since I just had a baby, but once he is past toddler stage and had a respect for dogs I'm sure I'll take in more.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> I have also been naive and "rescued" working dogs. And I have come to realize that not every dog deserves chance after chance after chance. Some dogs will never be at peace until they get the blue juice.
> 
> I have taken in dogs because I felt bad for the dog and the owners. And my husband has been attacked, my mother so badly she needed surgery to reconstruct part of her arm, my property has been damaged, my own dogs have been hurt and I have been left feeling frustrated.
> 
> ...


+1


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

julie allen said:


> I took in three last year, and have a nerve bag bitch here that will likely stay unless the perfect home comes up. One was pure hell, the other two typical mals in the wrong place.
> 
> Currently, that's on hold since I just had a baby, but once he is past toddler stage and had a respect for dogs I'm sure I'll take in more.


 
See that's what curtailed my rescue involvement--birth of the baby. Too risky. I won't keep an unsound dog with a kid in the house.

T


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Just out of curiosity, could someone write me a list of experienced malinois owners who would currently take in dogs with serious defensive aggression or nerve issues?
> 
> Oh, and promise to not put them to sleep if they couldn't make them adoptable?


Good question. And if anyone has such a list for other breeds (not just Mals) or if the they would take other breeds I know of several breed rescue groups that would love to know this information.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie,

Your first post was after you'd already killed the dog
You can rationalize and make excuses. No one on this list was given the chance to help this dog. So I don't know why you're so worried about what any of us think now?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tamara,

This was a 10-12 month old poorly socialized poorly trained PUPPY not a psycho adult. Too bad we'll never really know if he could have been rehabilitated. Sorry but lots of Police K9 handlers don't have the skills to deal with a problem puppy/dog :-(





Tamara McIntosh said:


> I have also been naive and "rescued" working dogs. And I have come to realize that not every dog deserves chance after chance after chance. Some dogs will never be at peace until they get the blue juice.
> 
> I have taken in dogs because I felt bad for the dog and the owners. And my husband has been attacked, my mother so badly she needed surgery to reconstruct part of her arm, my property has been damaged, my own dogs have been hurt and I have been left feeling frustrated.
> 
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Julianne Ramanujam said:


> About two months ago, I was given a male malinois by an individual who found the dog too aggressive and couldn't handle him. From what I understand, the guy was intent on doing French Ringsport with the dog, but never joined a club, and at the first sign of aggression when he was a 5 month old puppy, the pup spent more and more time in the basement, kenneled, with no socialization, until he was ten months old and handed to me. I accepted the dog initially because a. I felt sorry for him. The dog was in a bad place. b. I didn't want the dog to go to someone who would exploit him. He was intact and AKC registered. c. I thought I could train him up and find him a good place.
> 
> So I did my best. The dog came around, and I was able to work with him, but I just couldn't get him past his defensiveness with other people. I didn't have enough resources - namely, experienced people to surround myself with. I also had school and work, outside of training this dog, so although I always dedicated a couple hours a day to working with him, those hours weren't always at the right time for everyone else. I did the best I could. He went through three different owners, two of them being previous military dog handlers, and he was returned to me each time. I had minimal, if any, support from the breeder. Yesterday, I made the decision to put him down. For the sake of my life, I cannot have a dog that no one else can, in the least, feed and water, and at this point, I don't have the facilities to support that. Making that decision was much more difficult than I'd imagined it. We had grown very close over the past couple of months.
> 
> ...


are you in the "industry"? what methods did you try to use to get the dog to act right?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It's interesting to observe the energy that the WDF outrage of the month brings to the forum. I often wonder if the people who comment on these issues really are as confrontational and critical as they come off on the forum. 

To the OP, about your original question. No, I'm not. I don't have the resources, experience, nor the time to undertake such a project. Everything else aside, whatever you went through with this dog I hope that if there was an error in judgement/handling that perhaps there may be some productive dialogue that can be extracted from this thread to help another in some way. If not, and nothing else could be done within your means or resources then I applaud you for making the decision that you did.

Jennifer asked a question about people who might take on problematic dogs. If I trusted the source and the dog did not have nerve issues, then yes absolutely I would. I've said here many times that I am open to and have sought out opportunities to work with other puppies/dog and I certainly wouldn't turn down a chance to help out in a situation where I could make a difference.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Julie,
> 
> Your first post was after you'd already killed the dog
> You can rationalize and make excuses. No one on this list was given the chance to help this dog. So I don't know why you're so worried about what any of us think now?


Thomas was this to me?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

registering owners does not sound good to me. Dont need to be on another list made by anyone.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

No way of knowing if the dog was a rehab candidate or not. No way of knowing if this is BS or not.

A lot of people are quick to talk about saving dogs but when it comes down to it thats what it is...talk. When placing a dog, any dog, it is no easy task finding an appropriate home.

I have rescued many dogs, placed some, kept some, and put quite a few down. Every dog I ever put down, minus one, I held when they went to sleep.

There is nothing dis-honorable about erring on the side of caution. There are too many good, stable, low liability dogs that need homes.

Maybe she made some mistakes, which she admits to, but I don't think she did anything wrong nor needs to get beat up about it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Well said Chris. 

Making the hard decision is too often put off amid a plethora of excuses....and then done later by someone else.





Chris Keister said:


> No way of knowing if the dog was a rehab candidate or not. No way of knowing if this is BS or not.
> 
> A lot of people are quick to talk about saving dogs but when it comes down to it thats what it is...talk. When placing a dog, any dog, it is no easy task finding an appropriate home.
> 
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Keister said:


> Maybe she made some mistakes, which she admits to, but I don't think she did anything wrong nor needs to get beat up about it.


I agree with the first part, but do not agree with her effort to get some kind of registry of owners and buyers going, for sure...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't agree with any owner registries and would kick this responsibility back to the breeder. Agree with what Chris said. I for one, wouldn't feel comfortable placing a dog like this unless he was fully rehabbed and even then, it would have to be with a proven individual. The whole rehab thingi is a huge commitment. Took me a year with one dog. My last rescue was found on the street with a front leg broken in two places. Rescues didn't want him. Tried placing him a couple of times. I've had him 6 years. When you take them in, you have to be prepared that someone else might not want them. He's a cool dog with just about perfect temperament, even if he is a BC.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Question? Why does it allways end up being the breeders responsibility?

That's something that doesn't quite make sense to me? The dog gets ****ed up by a previous owner BUT lets hand responsibility back to the breeder?

Seriously? What is a breeders responsibilty? And how long does it last? Till the day the dog dies, age 12?


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Question? Why does it allways end up being the breeders responsibility?
> 
> That's something that doesn't quite make sense to me? The dog gets ****ed up by a previous owner BUT lets hand responsibility back to the breeder?
> 
> Seriously? What is a breeders responsibilty? And how long does it last? Till the day the dog dies, age 12?



Note: I'm coming from the pet side of things a bit here...

I would argue that being a responsible breeder should mean that yes, for the life of that dog the breeder is responsible for making sure it has a place to go when all else fails. They produced the dog, they should be prepared take it back no matter how damaged it is, then maybe take at look at their placement process. Sh*t happens to even the best breeders of course, but if this happening a lot and they're so overwhelmed with dogs they're getting back they may need to re-evaluate their process. This doesn't just apply to the small hobby breeders either even the broker types raising dogs to sell for police, military, etc should still be prepared to take a dog back. What they do with the dog then may decide in if they see it as a living thing or as property but they should be prepared to take back any dog they breed.

That being said I'm also very much pro-euthanasia. I've seen a few dogs that were euthed at rescues or by foster homes that I know I could have turned around (typically I hear that they were euthed after the fact...it sucks like that) however realistically there are NOT enough homes for problem dogs and I can totally understand a person being iffy about adopting out a dog that has known behavioral issues especially with aggression, it could come back to bite them. 

Everyone says that they "would have taken the dog" after the fact but how many people actually would have taken a completely unadoptable dangerous biting monster often sight unseen right at this moment? True, sometimes dogs that are described as horrible dogs in whatever way end up being victims are poor handling or questionable evaluation technics (I have two of those as permanent residents actually, one "vicious child eating monster" and one "nervebag who can't ever do bitework" according their previous owners....) but you can't count on that.

Responsibilty SHOULD lay with the breeder, the more breeders we have properly checking homes then cleaning up their mess when things don't work out the less dogs end up in situations where they aren't adoptable and stuck with people who could be helping 10 perfectly adoptable dogs who did nothing wrong in the time it would take to get one with sever issues safe enough to be adopted out to a professional with a fort knox style kennel where it would live it's life isolated from all people and other dogs.

The idea of having to keep a sever problem dog forever because it will never be adoptable is not reasonable for many people and shouldn't have to be....that's how people who do rescue get burnt out.

I do not know the situation of the OP, and yeah, I do wish they'd exhausted all resources before killing the dog (especially if it was only a year old?) but at the same time I don't think they should be attacked for it. And I do think the breeder has some fault in the situation (assuming the breeder was given the option to step in).


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jami Craig said:


> Note: I'm coming from the pet side of things a bit here...
> 
> I would argue that being a responsible breeder should mean that yes, for the life of that dog the breeder is responsible for making sure it has a place to go when all else fails. They produced the dog, they should be prepared take it back no matter how damaged it is, then maybe take at look at their placement process. Sh*t happens to even the best breeders of course, but if this happening a lot and they're so overwhelmed with dogs they're getting back they may need to re-evaluate their process. This doesn't just apply to the small hobby breeders either even the broker types raising dogs to sell for police, military, etc should still be prepared to take a dog back. What they do with the dog then may decide in if they see it as a living thing or as property but they should be prepared to take back any dog they breed.
> 
> ...


Actually as for my question, I was thinking outside the topic and thinking of breeding in general and where the responsibility for the breeder should or should not end.

Now, putting forward that I am not a breeder, but have had a few litters over the last 25 years I am of a mind that people should not automatically assume that the breeder has responsibility towards a dog that they chose to purchase.

I own a pet and working dogs. The only reason I would go back to the breeder would be if it was a pup that was sickly and had an infectious disease or if I had problems that made it impossible to care for it any longer. Health issues per example. If I couldn't take care of my dog anymore I would talk to the breeder and see if he wanted the dog back, or might know of a good home to place it...

That, for me, is where it ends with breeder responsibility.

To say that the breeder has a lifelong responsibility for the dog? Are you KIDDING ME! Seriously? Hell no! I am sorry but that just makes no sense at all.

That is a good way to shift blame for ****ups with a dog and then tell the breeder to deal with it! I honestly can not believe that people think like that!

The breeder should be available for questions you might have... thats it!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Wrong button! Wasn't done yet! :twisted:

It is pretty easy to get rid of your own responsibility by saying the breeder should take care of everything. Beats having to look for answers I guess.

No one held a shotgun to your head when you got the dog. If a dog has 4 different owners does the breeder still have responsibility for the dog? ](*,)

I am shocked at people who dare to think that way. If you buy a carton of milk and its low fat and you don't like the taste, do you try and shove it back into the cows? The cow is afterall where the milk came from, right?

My god.... I don't think I have ever been this :twisted::twisted::twisted: about a statement on this forum as I am now.


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

I don't mean blanket responsibility for every aspect of the dog's life, the owner bought the dog....they're responsible for taking care of the animal until they transfer ownership or it dies.

However do think that the breeder should always be prepared to take back a dog that they have bred, at any point and in any condition. What they do with the dog is dependent on the condition and adoptability of the dog (which is why I added the pro-euthanasia part) but why should something THEY bred be someone elses problem when things go wrong? Why should a rescue organization or an individual who had NOTHING to do with the dog existing be obligated to take it and care for it? Especially if it has some issue making it difficult to care for? 

If there is a qualified rescue or person that wants the dog, sure, they can take it, if the owner can sell the dog, sure...sell the dog...if the owner can rehome the dog then they should (this all assuming there are no contracts, etc). However if there is absolutely no place for that dog to go and the owner can't appropriately sell, rehome, euthanize, etc the dog on their own why should someone who had nothing to do with the dog existing be charged with having to give that dog a place to go?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jami Craig said:


> I don't mean blanket responsibility for every aspect of the dog's life, the owner bought the dog....they're responsible for taking care of the animal until they transfer ownership or it dies.
> 
> However do think that the breeder should always be prepared to take back a dog that they have bred, at any point and in any condition. What they do with the dog is dependent on the condition and adoptability of the dog (which is why I added the pro-euthanasia part) but why should something THEY bred be someone elses problem when things go wrong? Why should a rescue organization or an individual who had NOTHING to do with the dog existing be obligated to take it and care for it? Especially if it has some issue making it difficult to care for?
> 
> If there is a qualified rescue or person that wants the dog, sure, they can take it, if the owner can sell the dog, sure...sell the dog...if the owner can rehome the dog then they should (this all assuming there are no contracts, etc). However if there is absolutely no place for that dog to go and the owner can't appropriately sell, rehome, euthanize, etc the dog on their own why should someone who had nothing to do with the dog existing be charged with having to give that dog a place to go?


A breeder should take the dog in regardless of age or condition? Simply because they bred it? I think it is nice if a breeder would do such a thing. To expect it? Totally different thing and quite arrogant at that. 

Something THEY bred and lets not forget, THEY sold to a new owner, therefor all responsibility goes to the new owner and not the breeder. 

God I can see it now... I buy a dog, am in way over my head or maybe I'm just lazy or mean and I **** it to fubar proportions... Now I have a problem, lets see if I can get rid of it by making the breeder responsible. Thats it! Great plan....lets make the breeder responsible so I can forget all about it and move on to **** up my next dog! 

Hows about, we as dog owner all take responsibility for our own actions instead of trying to get rid of our problems by making other people responsible for them? Like I said before... No one was holding a gun to our heads when we bought the dog.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Hows about, we as dog owner all take responsibility for our own actions instead of trying to get rid of our problems by making other people responsible for them? Like I said before... No one was holding a gun to our heads when we bought the dog.


Alice, 

I agree with you on many points. I don't think dumping everything back to the breeder is right or fair. I agree that people should be responsible for their actions, nor do I hold someone trying to help out for the sake of the dog taking steps necessary to resolve the situation when they have done all they can do to the best of their ability. 

But it's nice when the breeder will be the open door to help out someone who has purchased one of their dogs and needs help. I would rather one of my dogs comes back to me then get dumped into a bad situation when I could maybe get the dog into another home or take the necessary action to prevent the dog from injuring another innocent.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "Hows about, we as dog owner all take responsibility for our own actions instead of trying to get rid of our problems by making other people responsible for them?"
..... ROTFLMFAO !!!!
..... you are soooo old school Alice 

responsibility and accountability started fading from the vocabulary about 25-30 years ago
...there IS a reason the "blame game" was only coined recently //lol//
.... nobody F...ks up any more .... they just make "errors in judgement" :-(

i do foster dogs occasionally, and i assume some degree of "breedership" for them...my policy is pretty simple :
1. i NEVER give them away free; ESPECIALLY a mixed breed mutt ..... if a person gets a dog for nothing that is often the value they place on it. i have never had much trouble rehoming rescues
2. i also tell em if for some reason they have to give it up, don't dump it or take it anywhere b4 calling me back
3. and the turnover is ALWAYS done at my favorite vet clinic, right after the dog gets done what i scheduled for it and the new owner pays up 
... win - win

anyway, as usual this has gotten way off topic ... a "lister" who only "listed" after killing a dog without giving many specific details of why she killed it ... the lister should get back on and continue where they left off if they really wanted to learn something. and the lister DID make mention of a breeder in the post. more importantly, i think there ARE a few people here who know a little about aggression work and fostering rescue dogs ...

and the lister is pretty naive if they were surprised at some of the reactions they got based on what was written


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

julie allen said:


> Thomas was this to me?


No the OP Julieann


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

If you don't have the time and ability to deal with a dog with problems? Then don't accept responsibility for the dog !
Take a free dog, keep it for two months try to place it (sell it?) in three different homes before you KILL it and then act like you're some kind of hero? Then you criticize the breeder who probably bred a decent dog that was fuked up be the original owner?




Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't agree with any owner registries and would kick this responsibility back to the breeder. Agree with what Chris said. I for one, wouldn't feel comfortable placing a dog like this unless he was fully rehabbed and even then, it would have to be with a proven individual. The whole rehab thingi is a huge commitment. Took me a year with one dog. My last rescue was found on the street with a front leg broken in two places. Rescues didn't want him. Tried placing him a couple of times. I've had him 6 years. When you take them in, you have to be prepared that someone else might not want them. He's a cool dog with just about perfect temperament, even if he is a BC.


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## Julianne Ramanujam (Jan 15, 2013)

I'll respond when I'm good and ready, thanks Rick. There's obviously no need to keep chipping ice cubes into this pot of hot oil. When I've gotten a moment, I've been here.

When I wrote the "breeder/owner registry" question, I was just trying to throw an idea out and brainstorm a fix for something that I saw as a problem. I don't mind if you don't like the idea. 

It looks like the one thing that people did come up with was a phone number listing. No brainer, we could've used that. If anyone would actually be interested in listing their phone number as someone to contact as a resource for "out of control" issues, please send me your phone numbers, and I will work to have them listed, either under rescues' websites, or I will create my own website for this matter.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not suggesting placing a dog with temperament problems in just any home. I'm saying if you don't have the skills or time to rehab such a dog then don't take the dog. I'm saying two months is NOT sufficient time to rehab even the most basic issues. I'm saying placing a dog in three homes where he's returned within 24 hours shows a complete lack of any screening process.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Alice,
> 
> I agree with you on many points. I don't think dumping everything back to the breeder is right or fair. I agree that people should be responsible for their actions, nor do I hold someone trying to help out for the sake of the dog taking steps necessary to resolve the situation when they have done all they can do to the best of their ability.
> 
> But it's nice when the breeder will be the open door to help out someone who has purchased one of their dogs and needs help. I would rather one of my dogs comes back to me then get dumped into a bad situation when I could maybe get the dog into another home or take the necessary action to prevent the dog from injuring another innocent.


Thats what I said, its nice when the breeder would do this, I would consider the breeder first as well depending on the circumstances I mentioned earlier. But to assume it as scripture is just plain wrong.

What annoys me is statements that the breeder should feel responsible regardless of the dog and how it might look, feel, think or react and thats not even mentioning age... Too many responsibility is thrown towards the breeder, not enough responsibility is taken by the owner.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> A breeder should take the dog in regardless of age or condition? Simply because they bred it? I think it is nice if a breeder would do such a thing. To expect it? Totally different thing and quite arrogant at that.
> 
> Something THEY bred and lets not forget, THEY sold to a new owner, therefor all responsibility goes to the new owner and not the breeder.
> 
> ...


We're in agreement. Everything is always the breeder's fault. God forbid they didn't run a criminal background check on a puppy buyer.

Breeders don't keep Lo-Jack on their puppies. How am I as a breeder supposed to know where all of my dogs and puppies end up? This breeder probably has no idea the dog was rehomed. You can't stay in contact with everyone. And you can't expect buyers to follow your "contract" rules and offer the dog to you first.

Bad home matches happen for every breeder, even people breeding sweet little Yorkies. It's inevitable. But I don't ever automatically put the breeder at fault.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

What gets me most about this post, is not the fact that a dog was killed. If it truly was that aggressive and could not be worked with that's one thing. Two months was spent on this dog and during that time it was put into three different homes, which just isn't fair to the dog. 
Plus the op was not a trainer. Obviously the dog was ok with her, so why wouldn't he have worked out in the right place?
Not every dog can be saved, and we don't know the whole story here, but having done this myself, the time given to the dog wasn't enough, the training wasn't adequate, and he shouldnt have been placed in three homes. 
I have bred a few litters and I would take the dog back had it been mine. ONLY because I think what happened here is wrong, not because it would be my responsibility to take a dog someone else had screwed up.

I did take a pup back last year. The buyer wanted a protection dog (yes a puppy) had never owned a mal, but had a professional trainer and had been around mals.
I sold her a pup, shouldn't have. The pup was just average. In three weeks she called, said the pup was crazy, aggressive, attacking them and their other dog, and the trainer recommends he should be put to sleep. 
At 13 weeks old.
So I drove three hours, got the pup, not a thing wrong. Typical mal pup. The trainer had no experience with any more than pets, (thoufh I was told she had trained police dogs, found out that "police dog" simply means a german shepherd. One.
Anyway he is in Memphis now, doing pretty good in his training with some big shot lawyer . 
I never trust a person's description of an aggressive dog without seeing it, or knowing the experienced person evaluating the dog.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

What angers me is that a dog has been put to sleep for all the wrong reasons and most probably it wasn't even called for.

1 dog, 4 owners (everyone forgets the OP) 2 months time. 

As a member of this forum there was a world of information available to the OP and she didn't use it. 

a 1 year old dog paid the price for ignorance and that is a sad thing indeed. It is so easy to put a dog to sleep, its much harder to make the effort and take time to see what is actually there to work with.

1 year old, thats a pup still... a developing character that still has many things to show. 

Let me be blunt... I do not care how bad the dog was, how it lunged for people and how hard it was to handle and how agressive it is, how unsocialised it might have been. At 1 year old there is so much that you can do for it if you give it time... 

Hell in 2 months, that dog wouldn't have even left my kennel except for walks with me...or maybe I would let it walk around the yard for a few every day, but just with me around so as to get it to focus on me and nothing or no one else...I wouldn't even consider working or training it or putting pressure on it...I would just let it live, breathe and get used to me for starters and take it slowly from there....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

In defence of breeders, I can only say that the woman we bought our Fila Brasileiro from in Germany, vetted us entirely before selling us a pup.

We had our eye on a silver beige pup but unfortunately it broke its leg and she wouldn't sell it to us. She also kills off any new born pup which she finds does not have a good living chance. She told us that the one we chose, had no breeding faults but would not win titles at a show - he was too much of a "farm dog" in conformation.

After hearing about one of her pups being not well treated, she travelled miles to find it and, having done so, won a court case to take it back.

It is up to the buyer to search for a good breeder. Having found one, this does not, in my mind, entitle the owner to a life long guarantee for a dog that doesn't fit his/her circumstances, etc. ad lib. A lot of breeders are helpful. A lot ask questions about how the dog will be kept but have to be reliant on what the buyer tells them.

There are serious breeders and poor breeders. This will always be a moot question about who has the responsibility but breeder and buyer each have a responsibility, the breeder to breed his best and the buyer to ensure that the pup / dog lives in a healthy environment, is excersized sufficiently, health problems taken care of, etc.

To say that the breeder is responsible for each and every pup from sale onwards is ludicrous. Dogs are not consumer goods with a 2-3 year guarantee.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

bond with the dog..

if it is just an asshole at that young of an age, and not fearful, a good choke slam can work wonders.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

On the topic of rescues taking dogs like this, I had a friend email today saying he and another person i know were turned down for a dog by a Malinios rescue. The reason it sounds like is both people listed their experience training dogs in schutzhund. I know both of these people well and have trained with them for years. They both have or have had Malinios that they have titled.I would consider either person to be be excellent canidates for dogs. So my point is sometimes the best people for these dogs are getting turned away form taking these dogs in the first place.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

eric squires said:


> On the topic of rescues taking dogs like this, I had a friend email today saying he and another person i know were turned down for a dog by a Malinios rescue. The reason it sounds like is both people listed their experience training dogs in schutzhund. I know both of these people well and have trained with them for years. They both have or have had Malinios that they have titled.I would consider either person to be be excellent canidates for dogs. So my point is sometimes the best people for these dogs are getting turned away form taking these dogs in the first place.


 
Probably a group that is 'against teaching a dog to bite.' As for breeders, you bring it here, its your responsibility. Everyone wants to place responsibility on the OP that was in over her head but here the breeder could have stepped in and saved their own dog. Maybe its an AKC show world concept but you are certainly frowned upon if you won't take back your own and there is a problem--damn near ostracized if it turns up in rescue and you won't lend a hand. The bottom line is that you don't want the dog to end up in the wrong hands or PTS. I agree that the OP bit off more than she could chew but she tried. She could've just left the dog there. Who on this list was going to ship the dog and take it? Not every dog can be rehabbed, I don't care how young. My bouv breeder was called in once to evaluate a bouv puppy owned by a Sch training helper. He said then to put the dog to sleep. I know from getting two dogs from him that he has zero tolerance for temperament faults. Seemed harsh but inside of an hour he had blood dripping from his arm. Person decided to persevere. Dog first bit the pregnant wife in the face. Next him. The older he got, the crazier. He finally put him down at 14 months. He said he tried multiple things to work with the dog and nothing really helped. 

I don't get the "free dog" thing. It should've been free. Its a project and a very difficult one. If you ever have to rehab one or deal with temperament issues, its a lot of daily WORK/TIME and money. You have to get other people involved that know what they are doing it and do tons of traveling to different places. I'm sure the OP learned a huge lesson in that rescue/rehab is a take over your life commitment. I'm sure she learned that as much as the breeder didn't screen and support the placement, she couldn't find the right placement for the dog either. 40 people for one dog??? What industry are we dealing with? It sounds like with time the dog can adjust to people that he lives with. This would be fine for me. But none of the placements that she dealt with wanted to go through that process of getting the dog to trust and accept them. It takes a certain person who doesn't flip out over getting bit to deal with a dog of that nature. There aren't very many of those around. How many people are subject to being hurt before the inevitable? 


T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Sounds like they were going to abuse the poor fur baby with that abusive schutzhund training.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jami Craig said:


> Note: I'm coming from the pet side of things a bit here...
> 
> I would argue that being a responsible breeder should mean that yes, for the life of that dog the breeder is responsible for making sure it has a place to go when all else fails. They produced the dog, they should be prepared take it back no matter how damaged it is, then maybe take at look at their placement process. Sh*t happens to even the best breeders of course, but if this happening a lot and they're so overwhelmed with dogs they're getting back they may need to re-evaluate their process. This doesn't just apply to the small hobby breeders either even the broker types raising dogs to sell for police, military, etc should still be prepared to take a dog back. What they do with the dog then may decide in if they see it as a living thing or as property but they should be prepared to take back any dog they breed.
> 
> ...


Agreed. On a broader note, you want to continue to have bite sports and promote aggression, you need to be careful who gets ahold of it. Otherwise, some legislative idiot along with AR money starts to promote its the breeding for bite and aggression and allowance of the training and the sport that's the problem.

T


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Eric,
You're probably right that that was why your friends were turned down. Most of the rescue groups I have talked to over the years have policies in place that say they won't adopt dogs out to people who they think will protection train the dogs (at least for those breeds that might be suitable for protection work).

All things considered, it's probably a good policy. I hate to generalize but most people training protection aren't titling multiple dogs year after year (and I'm NOT starting the PPD vs. sport debate again, I've done both and support both). And that's the same generalization those rescue groups are making.
Derek


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Sadly too many "rescue" groups would rather kill a dog then give it to someone doing a bite sport or God forbid use a prong or e-collar to train/rehab. Yeah dogs are much better off dead than be "abused" with one of those horrible looking prong collars or evil Shock collars :-(


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Thomas,
Not at all saying the dog is better off dead, I'm on your side in this argument.
Last fall I euthenized my old dog, this dog was killed. There is a distinction. 13 years vs. 1. Nearly blind and fully deaf vs. just a pup. We even took him out with a sleeve a few days before, he thought he was in his glory, even though the helper barely had to jog on his pursuit bite.

The policy doesn't exist for people who are likely to frequent this forum, yourself and myself included, but for the guy who walks into the pitbull rescue and wants a "guard dog".
Derek


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Not all rescues work out, despite good intentions. 

Remember this story?

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/soci...efighter-dawn-brown-1-week-after-adopting-dog


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I was keeping an open mind on this, and even thought it bad taste to post a mugshot.... But then this.... Coincidence? One day he's worth 5k the next dirt nap? Can't be.... 


http://www.k-9classifieds.com/k9-for-sale/l1876.php


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

On the topic Imo a lot of this falls on the breeder, you breed a dog you're responsible for it for life, or at least you should be. From what she said they offered little to no support... Not cool if that's the case... As a breeder of working dogs one should be particularly diligent... What I'm gathering is she tried to help out, was to much dog she in turn needed help, breeder wouldn't assist. .. If this is all true, they made the choice the dog had no worth just as much as she did... If it's true.... still don't get the classified just days earlier?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

tracey delin said:


> I was keeping an open mind on this, and even thought it bad taste to post a mugshot.... But then this.... Coincidence? One day he's worth 5k the next dirt nap? Can't be....
> 
> 
> http://www.k-9classifieds.com/k9-for-sale/l1876.php


Does make you wonder doesn't it? I would hope this was for another 1 year old dog she owns but somehow I doubt that....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ohhhh, its the dog peddling industry, not rescue/rehab. Nothing like a smoking gun. 

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

tracey delin said:


> *On the topic Imo a lot of this falls on the breeder, you breed a dog you're responsible for it for life, or at least you should be. From what she said they offered little to no support...* Not cool if that's the case... As a breeder of working dogs one should be particularly diligent... What I'm gathering is she tried to help out, was to much dog she in turn needed help, breeder wouldn't assist. .. If this is all true, they made the choice the dog had no worth just as much as she did... If it's true.... still don't get the classified just days earlier?


Nothing falls to the breeder since they did not turn the dog into the state that it is now, poor ownership did that. Little to no support does not make this a bad breeder. That is HER view, she felt she got little support from the breeder, she also felt that 2 months of owning this dog and shoving it around from owner to owner was actually doing the dog a world of good! Then she decided to kill it/have it killed. 

I do not understand why people feel the need to point fingers at breeders for something they have no hand in.

Should a breeder follow up on every pup for the rest of its life? If that is the case he might as well stop selling them to new owners.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Probably a group that is 'against teaching a dog to bite.' As for breeders, you bring it here, its your responsibility. Everyone wants to place responsibility on the OP that was in over her head but here the breeder could have stepped in and saved their own dog. Maybe its an AKC show world concept but you are certainly frowned upon if you won't take back your own and there is a problem--damn near ostracized if it turns up in rescue and you won't lend a hand. The bottom line is that you don't want the dog to end up in the wrong hands or PTS. I agree that the OP bit off more than she could chew but she tried. She could've just left the dog there. Who on this list was going to ship the dog and take it? Not every dog can be rehabbed, I don't care how young. My bouv breeder was called in once to evaluate a bouv puppy owned by a Sch training helper. He said then to put the dog to sleep. I know from getting two dogs from him that he has zero tolerance for temperament faults. Seemed harsh but inside of an hour he had blood dripping from his arm. Person decided to persevere. Dog first bit the pregnant wife in the face. Next him. The older he got, the crazier. He finally put him down at 14 months. He said he tried multiple things to work with the dog and nothing really helped.
> 
> I don't get the "free dog" thing. It should've been free. Its a project and a very difficult one. If you ever have to rehab one or deal with temperament issues, its a lot of daily WORK/TIME and money. You have to get other people involved that know what they are doing it and do tons of traveling to different places. I'm sure the OP learned a huge lesson in that rescue/rehab is a take over your life commitment. *I'm sure she learned that as much as the breeder didn't screen and support the placement, she couldn't find the right placement for the dog either.* 40 people for one dog??? What industry are we dealing with? It sounds like with time the dog can adjust to people that he lives with. This would be fine for me. But none of the placements that she dealt with wanted to go through that process of getting the dog to trust and accept them. It takes a certain person who doesn't flip out over getting bit to deal with a dog of that nature. There aren't very many of those around. How many people are subject to being hurt before the inevitable?
> 
> ...


Curious.... Where did you find out that the breeder didn't screen or support the placement? Thats a pretty huge assumption you're making....wonder where it came from?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Dang just lost my post.... Short version... 

Yes if a breeder is selling working dogs and as any breeder should trying to improve their program they should do their best to keep up on them. But that is besides the point... This dog was brought to their attention as a problem... In the wrong hands... At that point., as a breeder if you don't offer to take the dog, advice to help the situation, or helping to rehome you have given your consent to whatever outcome it may be.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Curious.... Where did you find out that the breeder didn't screen or support the placement? Thats a pretty huge assumption you're making....wonder where it came from?


 
The OP's statements which are pretty suspect at this point given Tracy's link to the advertisement posted a few days ago. As for the screening, its no wonder he was returned. Ad doesn't seem to do him justice. I have to wonder if she really put such a gold mine to sleep or is there something else going on and that's the cover.

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

tracey delin said:


> Dang just lost my post.... Short version...
> 
> Yes if a breeder is selling working dogs and as any breeder should trying to improve their program they should do their best to keep up on them. But that is besides the point... This dog was brought to their attention as a problem... In the wrong hands... At that point., as a breeder if you don't offer to take the dog, advice to help the situation, or helping to rehome you have given your consent to whatever outcome it may be.


You and I both know it is impossible to keep tabs on everyone at all times. Apart from that, the dog was brought to their attention and they provided minimal help, but help non the less, the OP felt it was minimal but we do not really know what the help offered was, do we? Could be anything.... The thing is, the breeder somehow gets a bad wrap here when in all honesty, the breeder has nothing to do with this. 

Why should the breeder offer to take back the dog? Because its the nice and proper thing to do? He did nothing wrong to begin with! He bred a litter, sold the pup, the new owner ruined it due to whatever reason, then it went to 4 different owners in 2 months and now the breeder is responsible? 

If someone buy a car and drive it into a brick wall its ruined, do you go back to the dealer? Blame him because the car is now messed up and unsuitable to drive? Or do you take responsibility for smashing it into the brick wall to begin with? We were the one's that made it unsuitable but the breeder should flash his magic wand and fix it for us now?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its not a matter of blaming the breeder. 


T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its not a matter of blaming the breeder.
> 
> 
> T


Okay, lets call it "Shifting responsibility" The owner denies responsibility and shifts it to the breeder.

Its semantics....


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## Julianne Ramanujam (Jan 15, 2013)

I did put the dog up on K9 classifieds. Somehow I thought that if I advertised him as a dog worthy of a "higher-class trainer" maybe I could find someone willing to tackle this challenge. But he was sold for a minimal price to the one person who paid for him, no different than what I see dogs listed as for adoption, and I refunded all of the money on his return. I'm sorry, I was open to trying as many venues as possible to find him a home, even if I did use that, but I was honest with people in phone calls and e-mails, and nothing was generated from this ad. 

Like I said, I made mistakes. Think of me as you will, I spent as much time and effort as I could devising ways to find a place for this dog, even if it did include methods that were a little desperate.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> I was keeping an open mind on this, and even thought it bad taste to post a mugshot.... But then this.... Coincidence? One day he's worth 5k the next dirt nap? Can't be....
> 
> 
> http://www.k-9classifieds.com/k9-for-sale/l1876.php


Ok, 
You win.
Unless the OP can say this isn't the same dog.
I still stand behind the rescues not adopting to the bunch of us, for all the right reasons, but if this was a $5000 dog one week and PTS the next......
The OP needs to tell us why, and justify her opinion.
Of course, if she doesn't, what's the worst we can do? 
Derek


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Julianne Ramanujam said:


> I did put the dog up on K9 classifieds. Somehow I thought that if I advertised him as a dog worthy of a "higher-class trainer" maybe I could find someone willing to tackle this challenge. But he was sold for a minimal price to the one person who paid for him, no different than what I see dogs listed as for adoption, and I refunded all of the money on his return. I'm sorry, I was open to trying as many venues as possible to find him a home, even if I did use that, but I was honest with people in phone calls and e-mails, and nothing was generated from this ad.
> 
> Like I said, I made mistakes. Think of me as you will, I spent as much time and effort as I could devising ways to find a place for this dog, even if it did include methods that were a little desperate.


Desperate? If you call placing a deceiving add desperate I don't know what to call outright lieing anymore.. Creative honesty? 

It makes me doubt every word posted by you...

Enlighten us if you will? Does the dog still live or did you have it killed?

When did finding a good home for a dog involve people paying YOU money? I am very sorry but your words have no weight what so ever at this point. It looks more like a quick buck you saw to make and it backfired on you when you got your hands on more dog then you could handle...

Sad thing is? Dog paid the price for your stupidity and greed.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Julianne,
10 minutes ago was the first time I saw your add for this dog.
It took me near that long to write my last reply.
Now it seems to be down already?

I'm certainly not the most prolific poster on this site, but I like to think that when I do, I have something to say, or a reasonable question to ask.
So? Was this dog worth $5K 24 hours before you killed it or not?
If it was, why so? And why did you put it down insead?
If not, why not? And why were you asking the price of a half decent police/sport dog prospect for it?
Derek


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

This is why shopping for a dog can be downright scary if you dont have the hookups.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Julianne Ramanujam said:


> I did put the dog up on K9 classifieds. Somehow I thought that if I advertised him as a dog worthy of a "higher-class trainer" maybe I could find someone willing to tackle this challenge. But he was sold for a minimal price to the one person who paid for him, no different than what I see dogs listed as for adoption, and I refunded all of the money on his return. I'm sorry, I was open to trying as many venues as possible to find him a home, even if I did use that, but I was honest with people in phone calls and e-mails, and nothing was generated from this ad.
> 
> Like I said, I made mistakes. Think of me as you will, I spent as much time and effort as I could devising ways to find a place for this dog, even if it did include methods that were a little desperate.


I ask again, what methods did YOU use to try to correct the dogs behavior?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Does it matter now, Joby? The dog is gone. Maybe he was salvageable, maybe he wasn't. Is it because the dog was a Mal that is getting people's knickers in a twist? What if it was a different breed? Like a husky or a lab? 

I suppose I see a bit of myself in the OP's situation... you try to do the right thing by removing a dog from a bad home and get in over your head. I don't know the dog or the OP, but who wants to take on a dog with a dodgy temperament that isn't good enough for work or nice enough to be a reliable pet?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Does it matter now, Joby? The dog is gone. Maybe he was salvageable, maybe he wasn't. Is it because the dog was a Mal that is getting people's knickers in a twist? What if it was a different breed? Like a husky or a lab?
> 
> I suppose I see a bit of myself in the OP's situation... you try to do the right thing by removing a dog from a bad home and get in over your head. I don't know the dog or the OP, but who wants to take on a dog with a dodgy temperament that isn't good enough for work or nice enough to be a reliable pet?


it does matter a little bit, in the aspect of maybe once she gets that registry/list rolling to screen and register potential buyers, that she maybe should put herself in the catergory of people NOT to get mals to... working dogs such as mals in my opinion should not always be expected to be reliable pets, for people that are not qualified to properly handle them. Breeding working dogs to be reliable pets for the masses is the major reason that working traits decline in breeds.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Does it matter now, Joby? The dog is gone. Maybe he was salvageable, maybe he wasn't. Is it because the dog was a Mal that is getting people's knickers in a twist? What if it was a different breed? Like a husky or a lab?
> 
> I suppose I see a bit of myself in the OP's situation... you try to do the right thing by removing a dog from a bad home and get in over your head. I don't know the dog or the OP, but who wants to take on a dog with a dodgy temperament that isn't good enough for work or nice enough to be a reliable pet?


A dog is a dog, no matter the breed, its a life worth saving. 

You see a bit of yourself in the OP? Did you actually read how far she went? In 2 months she tried to rehome it 3 more times, not counting the placement in her one home. She advertised it as a sweet, reliable, good working dog for $5000 on april 14th and the next day says the dog wasn't salvagable and was going to be killed? Funny enough, the moment she was caught and asked about the advertisement on forum, she deleted it. Came up with a crooked story about being desperate to get the dog rehomed somehow....

I'm pretty sure she was desperate allright... $5000 worth desperate.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I"m getting an error on the URL for the ad. Did the OP delete it ?
I think Julianne grabbed a free dog and thought she'd make a quick buck. I don't buy for a minute the "I thought I'd ask for x$ to attract an experienced handler but I didn't charge that much and returned the money anyway" story. When was the dog PTS if it was? What does the breeder have to say about what happened to this puppy? Was he even notified that the dog was going to be PTS ? What is the OP's relationship with the Original owner?
There are a whole lot more questions then answers and a lot of stories that don't make sense :-(


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> A dog is a dog, no matter the breed, its a life worth saving.
> 
> You see a bit of yourself in the OP? Did you actually read how far she went? In 2 months she tried to rehome it 3 more times, not counting the placement in her one home. She advertised it as a sweet, reliable, good working dog for $5000 on april 14th and the next day says the dog wasn't salvagable and was going to be killed? Funny enough, the moment she was cought and asked about the advertisement on forum, she deleted it. Came up with a crooked story about being desperate to get the dog rehomed somehow....
> 
> I'm pretty sure she was desperate allright... $5000 worth desperate.


take the dog home, bond with it...figure out the problems, fix or determine the work arounds, then re-home with full disclosure.

why bother getting involved with a rescue situation at all if you cannot do this? take the dog to a qualified trainer if you are not qualified.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Leslie,

Is the dog gone or not? The OP came on and said she decided to euthanize the dog but it is unclear when or if it's been done?
This is the Working Dog Forum and this is/was a working line Malinois started in French Ring so there is going to be a little more interest then a pet dog.

How bad was the original home and how much of a behavior problem was there? We're going by the descriptions of the OP and her word isn't exactly reliable



leslie cassian said:


> Does it matter now, Joby? The dog is gone. Maybe he was salvageable, maybe he wasn't. Is it because the dog was a Mal that is getting people's knickers in a twist? What if it was a different breed? Like a husky or a lab?
> 
> I suppose I see a bit of myself in the OP's situation... you try to do the right thing by removing a dog from a bad home and get in over your head. I don't know the dog or the OP, but who wants to take on a dog with a dodgy temperament that isn't good enough for work or nice enough to be a reliable pet?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> take the dog home, bond with it...figure out the problems, fix or determine the work arounds, then re-home with full disclosure.
> 
> why bother getting involved with a rescue situation at all if you cannot do this? take the dog to a qualified trainer if you are not qualified.


Exactly! I would even go as far as to say that the dog should have been left where it was... Perhaps not a great life, but a life non the less. Who knows, maybe a week later or a month later someone else would have gotten their hands on the dog and things might have turned out differently? I know, big if...but still a possibility...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I"m getting an error on the URL for the ad. Did the OP delete it ?
> I think Julianne grabbed a free dog and thought she'd make a quick buck. I don't buy for a minute the "I thought I'd ask for x$ to attract an experienced handler but I didn't charge that much and returned the money anyway" story. When was the dog PTS if it was? What does the breeder have to say about what happened to this puppy? Was he even notified that the dog was going to be PTS ? What is the OP's relationship with the Original owner?
> There are a whole lot more questions then answers and a lot of stories that don't make sense :-(


Yes, immediately after she visited forum. Here is a cached copy of the page.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> There are a whole lot more questions then answers and a lot of stories that don't make sense :-(


Welcome to the internet, more specifically, the world of the WDF. ;-)


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Well, aren't most rescue dogs advertised for $5000 lol. How sad for the dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what was the problem with the dog again? either not much at all, or this AD is TOTAL BULLSHIT... cant have it both ways Julianne..



> Both parents Dual Purpose working Police Dogs.
> 
> Description:
> Training details.
> ...


glad you got it Alice...I have terabytes of stuff/videos that people like to pull offline, in case people get dishonest.


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## Julianne Ramanujam (Jan 15, 2013)

Yes, desperate. Once I was on the phone or talking over e-mail with anyone who showed interest in him, I asked for $600, negotiable, to cover the costs of neuter, transportation, and otherwise, the work I’d put into him. 

Alice, finding a home for the dog did not involve paying me money after the first individual tried him for $600. 

Derek, the dog was not worth $5000 when I put him up. I did it to see if that made him more worthy of someone’s interest. I removed the ad last night because the only options for the status of the ad are “available” and “!!SOLD!!” and he was neither.

Joby, I worked on building his trust. I took him on long walks – during the first week, these generally took up about four hours of my day – and looked for methods to build his confidence that didn’t conflict with our building of trust. Initially, he was muzzled most of the time, and then, I would take his muzzle off at the middle and end of the walks to feed him and give him some water. 

He had been trained using very harsh methods prior to my receiving him, and he had sores from where the prong collar had been left on him for too long. So, he was very sensitive and reactive to the prong, and I didn’t use it for a while. I would put him on an e-collar when I took him out, and if he tried to go after someone, I would correct him, and we would continue on. I didn’t make a big deal out of it, other than correcting him, as he needed to come out of his shell too, and I wanted to focus on other things. 

Initially, I spent a lot of time trying to just “broaden his world.” He’d never really been outside much, so I took him everywhere. We’d go hiking, to the park, to parking lots and pet stores, and sometimes, I would bring along my other mal, because she helped to calm him a little. The more I exposed him to, the calmer he became around me.
Now, a note about the muzzle, he could receive treats through the muzzle, but he wasn’t very food motivated, and most of the time, he wouldn’t eat them. Even without the muzzle, I had a difficult time getting him to eat sometimes.

I have been volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitation center for some time, and as those individuals have experience and interest with wild and aggressive animals, they were willing to help me out with training. I would bring the dog, and we would work to put him in a non-defensive state around people. I’d have him in a group of people not paying attention to him, and he could sniff around, Again, he was always on an e-collar and muzzled during this, because he was a liability. Half of the time he would be fine (provided no one looked at him) and sometimes, he would, very spontaneously, just go for someone.

I took him to other trainers, generally twice a week. I put ads up to ask the local community if anyone would be willing to help. I received no responses.

Eventually, I was able to work with him without the muzzle. He wouldn’t react to me, and his reactions to others around me were reduced significantly, although they still happened on occasion. He had high ball and toy drive, but initially, he wouldn’t keep these items for long, and if he got too excited about them, he would shut down. I’m guessing he was corrected for not outing or displaying too much drive. I worked him through this, and although he would still cap himself here or there, we finally got to a point where he wasn’t afraid of getting excited about the ball or tug, and playing with me. After that, we could actually start some training, and I worked with him 2 – 3 times daily on obedience, in many different environments. 

I have this monster tug that’s half the size of me that he really liked. I’d take him out, and we’d play with it for a bit, and then I’d walk him with him holding that tug for an hour or so, and he loved it. I attached a leash to the tug, so I could control it a bit better, and when he’d get nervous about someone yards away, I’d pull the tug and get him playing. That helped quite a bit, at least for his focus on the toy and me, if not for correcting his ultimate issue.

Unfortunately, no matter how much I did to expose him to being in close proximity with regular people and other trainers, he would still have these “spontaneous moments,” where I just couldn’t figure out what happened. They were so strange. Also, while he eventually became very attached to my boyfriend, he never really came around to my roommates, even though they were helping me feed him and walk him too. Eventually, they got bored of it – there’s nothing fun in receiving nothing from something you’re taking care of, and while they might help me if I asked, they have lives too. And speaking of life, I had to get back to mine. This dog took anywhere from 4 – 8 hours of dedicated work every single day. I spent an incredible amount of money taking him to trainers. Not only that, he was a liability, and he had plenty of potential to send me to jail if an accident happened. We didn’t want to risk that. His obedience improved, but his character never did. At that point, I’d hoped I could find a job for him that would suit a character like that, and called up the Idaho Correctional Facility’s sentry dog program. They turned him down. We spent five hours at the local shelter trying to find anyone we hadn’t already contacted or someone, anyone, who would take him in. 

When we made the decision, the individuals at the vet’s office treated us like “this was just business.” Like “obviously it didn’t matter to us.” 
My god, I think that experience was much more difficult than putting a dog down at old age. We had tried everything and we had failed, and for as sweet as he was to my boyfriend and I, we felt like there was nothing we could do. And you don’t see my face right now. You don’t know how difficult this was and is. We were in the office with his body for around an hour. The nurses waived our fee on the way out. We didn’t even leave the parking lot for another hour. I don’t think you realize how hard this was. I don’t think you know how difficult it is for me to write about it, right here, right now.

I have been taking in dogs like this for years, since about 2005, and not only have I never met a case like him, but I have always successfully rehomed the dogs. I had never seen anything like this, and despite his learning to be fine around myself and my boyfriend, I could never get him over it with strangers. I took him to a local working dog club some time before I put him down, and they asked me to remove the muzzle. I was hesitant about it, but did as they said, and on that day, he was fine. 

He didn’t react to them. Were they doing anything different than, say, the military dog handler that I sold the dog to? No. But I don’t have any video to show you, and that’s my loss. The military dog handler had the same success that these individuals had initially with him, in one session (after I had been working with him for two months). He was returned to me in under 12 hours for “going after” that same handler.

I don’t know if I ever could have fixed him, or if anyone else could’ve for that matter. I don’t know if his problem was genetic or caused by his background, but I do know that early socialization could’ve helped a TON. I was mad, and I wanted to see something change, so I came here, hoping I could get ideas.

As it stands, it’s been 24 hours since I made my post asking for phone numbers for references to add to rescues’ and shelters’ lists/to add to a project I am currently working on, and out of the dozen-or-so of you who have criticized me for my efforts, I have not received a single phone number from any of you. Should you change your mind, don’t hesitate to get in contact with me. I am working on a website that will address the issue of the rescue, rehabilitation and rehoming of these serious “out of control” dogs, and contain a phone number directory of people who are willing to, in the least, offer support, and potentially, last-resort housing, whether temporarily or permanently. In the meanwhile, if this project interests anyone else, please PM me.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks Alice and Joby for the information

Nicole,

BS stories are one thing but when you started killing working dogs that could have been rehabbed because you got in over your head and couldn't make a quick buck? That's another story :-(


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

julie allen said:


> Well, aren't most rescue dogs advertised for $5000 lol. How sad for the dog.


Speaking of, I wonder how Carlos is doing these days. [-X 

Hmmmm, I see the Friday Nicole has escaped from her cage... with 45 minutes of sleep under my belt, I think I'm gonna roll with it. :twisted:

Oh and Thomas, I said what I needed/wanted to in my earlier response to the OP. I really don't have all that much interest in what happened beyond that. I respect the fact that you and others have expressed interest in this story. Go with it. I hope you find some answers to your questions and if not, que sera sera.


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## Julianne Ramanujam (Jan 15, 2013)

There is just too much training info to discuss in one paragraph like that, and generally. Joby, if you have specific technique questions you would like to ask me, be specific and do.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Julianne Ramanujam said:


> Yes, desperate. Once I was on the phone or talking over e-mail with anyone who showed interest in him, I asked for $600, negotiable, to cover the costs of neuter, transportation, and otherwise, the work I’d put into him.
> 
> Alice, finding a home for the dog did not involve paying me money after the first individual tried him for $600.
> 
> ...


I don't know what to say.... Well I do know but I'm pretty sure it will get me a slap on the wrist, if not worse.

Here I sit and read this story and then I look back at the advertisement you posted for the dog and all I can do is shake my head. Here you say the dog was pretty much a demon and then some, where in the add you go about saying the dog is pretty much brilliant? And you still expect people to believe you? When was the dog put down? Your story is full of holes and untruths... From what I understand you sold the dog based on the add you placed? Add was placed the 14th of april? Dog came back again? You are spinning stories here faster then Keyzer Soze (moviebuffs will know who that is) 

I'm sorry, I don't believe a word that you write and any word you utter as explanation is suspect from them moment you decided to play footsy with truth... Not even going to mention the fact that your version of the truth cost a dog its life?

**** it....if I get slapped on the wrist or banned for my views, then so be it.

You should be removed from this forum for life! I am disgusted at the way you dealt with this, and how you sought to make money over this dogs back. You got greedy and had a dog in your hands to much to handle and it bit you on the ass. Finding you couldn't sell the dog you decided to bury the problem. Shame on you....

Think my view is harsh? Too bad, only one I have and trust me I was containing myself...I can do a lot worse in the state of mind I am right now...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Julianne

Are you serious? What a load of crap and rationalization. You killed a dog that you took responsibility for and couldn't handle.
You come here after the fact and wanted to blame the breeder.
Now after the ad is revealed you spin another tale about how you tried your best and took him to different trainers and spend x dollars and 8 hours a day etc..................... I call Bull Shit
It's the breeder fault?
It's the owners fault? So what's the real story was the dog trained with harsh methods (e collars and sores from a prong collar) or was he neglected in a kennel in the basement. Try to keep your stories straight. Trying to shift the blame to the people at the clinic where YOU took him to be killed. Again try to get your story straight. We're they cold and unsympathetic or did they waive the euthanize fee? What a bunch of bastards everyone on the WDF is for not jumping on your rehome list project. Everyone to blame for the situation except the person that killed the dog :-(


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Julianne, so the dog was sweet and loving with the family? or did it like to attack its handlers and need to be muzzled? was he loving with the family, or did he not warm up to your roomates, cant have it both ways, that ad is a real piece of work, looks nothing like what you have described here.

after reading all of it, I still think you are full of crap. 

I can see why you put the dog down, given what was expected of him under your care, and also agree that finding a suitable home for him might have been fairly difficult, sucks all the way around.

I personally would never attempt to rescue a dog with those kind of issues, and expect him to become a 100% trustable pet, or rely on people living with me to handle the dog.

This is one reason why I am not very emotional about dogs in general, if he was a total nutter, put him down if you cant control him or find someone that can.

I am on the fence about most of the rescue stuff anyhow, most people that I have encountered that are involved in the rescuing are just as eager to pass the crap forward, as they are to save the dog, as your ad appears to solidify in my mind.

I see no mention of any of the issues. 

I wont beat you up for putting him down anymore, sucks all the way around. If you spent that much time trying to fix the issues, the methods used were not very effective. 

Note to self, dont try to rescue animals that have major problems that I am not familiar with fixing. lesson learned...move on, dont beat your self up..but for gods sakes be honest about the dog.

was this outright fear or just non-social, fight, aggression with people?


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## Julianne Ramanujam (Jan 15, 2013)

Alice, he was "brilliant" when he was with me. That's it. Nobody bit on the ad, and the rehome with the military guy was prior to the posting of this ad. Like I said, that was a last resort idea- to post an ad for an awesome dog (which he was, with me) and see if anyone would be interested. It wasn't a good idea, and I never felt very good about it, but it was something to try.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Julianne Ramanujam said:


> About two months ago, I was given a male malinois by an individual who found the dog too aggressive and couldn't handle him. From what I understand, the guy was intent on doing French Ringsport with the dog, but never joined a club, and at the first sign of aggression when he was a 5 month old puppy, the pup spent more and more time in the basement, kenneled, with no socialization, until he was ten months old and handed to me. I accepted the dog initially because a. I felt sorry for him. The dog was in a bad place. *b. I didn't want the dog to go to someone who would exploit him. He was intact and AKC registered.* c. I thought I could train him up and find him a good place.
> 
> So I did my best. The dog came around, and I was able to work with him, but I just couldn't get him past his defensiveness with other people. I didn't have enough resources - namely, experienced people to surround myself with. I also had school and work, outside of training this dog, so although I always dedicated a couple hours a day to working with him, those hours weren't always at the right time for everyone else. I did the best I could. He went through three different owners, two of them being previous military dog handlers, and he was returned to me each time. I had minimal, if any, support from the breeder. Yesterday, I made the decision to put him down. For the sake of my life, I cannot have a dog that no one else can, in the least, feed and water, and at this point, I don't have the facilities to support that. Making that decision was much more difficult than I'd imagined it. We had grown very close over the past couple of months.
> 
> ...





Julianne Ramanujam said:


> Yes, desperate. Once I was on the phone or talking over e-mail with anyone who showed interest in him,* I asked for $600, negotiable, to cover the costs of neuter, *transportation, and otherwise, the work I’d put into him.
> 
> Alice, finding a home for the dog did not involve paying me money after the first individual tried him for $600.
> 
> ...


:---) and thats only on inconsistency....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> ...I can do a lot worse in the state of mind I am right now...


Shit Alice, since you started then why not use my logic and go all the way. If you're going to commit to something for good, heck, even if it's a f'up, then be sure to make it a doozey. =D>


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Shit Alice, since you started then why not use my logic and go all the way. If you're going to commit to something for good, heck, even if it's a f'up, then be sure to make it a doozey. =D>


:lol: I never do things halfway ;-)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Julianne Ramanujam said:


> I did put the dog up on K9 classifieds. *Somehow I thought that if I advertised him as a dog worthy of a "higher-class trainer" maybe I could find someone willing to tackle this challenge. But he was sold for a minimal price to the one person who paid for him,* no different than what I see dogs listed as for adoption, and I refunded all of the money on his return. I'm sorry, I was open to trying as many venues as possible to find him a home, even if I did use that, but I was honest with people in phone calls and e-mails, and nothing was generated from this ad.
> 
> Like I said, I made mistakes. Think of me as you will, I spent as much time and effort as I could devising ways to find a place for this dog, even if it did include methods that were a little desperate.





Julianne Ramanujam said:


> Alice, he was "brilliant" when he was with me. That's it.* Nobody bit on the ad, *and the rehome with the military guy was prior to the posting of this ad. Like I said, that was a last resort idea- to post an ad for an awesome dog (which he was, with me) and see if anyone would be interested. It wasn't a good idea, and I never felt very good about it, but it was something to try.


Something to try? Here's a novel idea... its called honesty! Try it sometimes, it will do you a world of good, also saves you having to remember detail? Just a suggestion.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Julianne, I've pm'd you my number. But I won't pat $5000 or $600 and shipping costs are up to you to cover. 
Rescue dogs get expensive. Vet costs, feed, time spent, training.

As far as the wildlife rehabbers training him... Wildlife has nothing to do with dogs period. I was a licensed rehabber for many years. There is no training involved period, and minimal handling. 

There is also a Belgian malinois rescue, even if they won't take in an aggressive dog, or was he sweet from the ad I'm not sure?? Anyway they can get you in touch with many people. 

Who was the breeder of this dog, and what did they say when you called them for help?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Speaking of, I wonder how Carlos is doing these days. [-X
> 
> Hmmmm, I see the Friday Nicole has escaped from her cage... with 45 minutes of sleep under my belt, I think I'm gonna roll with it. :twisted:
> 
> Oh and Thomas, I said what I needed/wanted to in my earlier response to the OP. I really don't have all that much interest in what happened beyond that. I respect the fact that you and others have expressed interest in this story. Go with it. I hope you find some answers to your questions and if not, que sera sera.


Yeah, I wonder where Carlos is now? Was a big stink on facebook for awhile, but haven't seen anything lately
:/


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> what was the problem with the dog again? either not much at all, or this AD is TOTAL BULLSHIT... cant have it both ways Julianne..
> 
> 
> 
> glad you got it Alice...I have terabytes of stuff/videos that people like to pull offline, in case people get dishonest.


lol before I even posted the link, I took a screen shot.... had a feeling it may disappear [-(


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> You and I both know it is impossible to keep tabs on everyone at all times. Apart from that, the dog was brought to their attention and they provided minimal help, but help non the less, the OP felt it was minimal but we do not really know what the help offered was, do we? Could be anything.... The thing is, the breeder somehow gets a bad wrap here when in all honesty, the breeder has nothing to do with this.
> 
> Why should the breeder offer to take back the dog? Because its the nice and proper thing to do? He did nothing wrong to begin with! He bred a litter, sold the pup, the new owner ruined it due to whatever reason, then it went to 4 different owners in 2 months and now the breeder is responsible?
> 
> If someone buy a car and drive it into a brick wall its ruined, do you go back to the dealer? Blame him because the car is now messed up and unsuitable to drive? Or do you take responsibility for smashing it into the brick wall to begin with? We were the one's that made it unsuitable but the breeder should flash his magic wand and fix it for us now?



Of course its very difficult to keep track of every dog especially if you breed a lot... think I covered that with "they should do their best to keep up on them." We dont know what help was offered... sorry my original long drawn out had a bunch of "if this and if thats" but on the second go it was late and I assumed we all can read this as a big fat assumption based on the information given by one party so no need to clarify it. 

Not sure how the breeder is getting a bad wrap?... I guess I dont see it the same. Imo if you dont care enough to help out with a dog you bred in some way, then you dont care about the outcome and are basically in agreement with whatever it may be. 

You say why should a breeder offer to take the dog back yet you are up in arms about the dog being put down... exactly my point. If you're a breeder of a dog and you're going to be upset by a a dog being "killed", then you do something... if you dont... then you really have no say in what happens... But lets talk about assumptions.. we dont really know if the dog was or was not ruined... we do not know if it was a genetic mess or upbringing or both.. or if the proper home could have done well by the dog... we will never know this.

On the last paragraph... not really what I am saying... there is a dog that is a problem and dangerous.. you bred it, its brought to your attention you do minimal... basically wash your hands of it.... you no longer have a say in the outcome... in that respect it is part your responsibility that the dog is dead... you didnt do anything either. again going on assumptions here and kinda taking a sidetrack.

t


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

julie allen said:


> Yeah, I wonder where Carlos is now? Was a big stink on facebook for awhile, but haven't seen anything lately
> :/


I never quite got the concept of being guilty by association until he was sold to Van Guard K9. Then I felt compelled to remove all Carlos references from any public material I had out there as I didn't want my dog being tied to Carlos (specifically Van Guard) at that point. I can't relate to what he projects but, and this is completely off topic, (actually it's not considering the subject line) but if anyone here has ever talked to that guy (what's his name anyway?) and found him to be a legitimately decent individual let me know.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Given the lack of honesty on the part of the OP We have no idea if the breeder was even aware of the problems with this dog or that Julianne was planning on killing him. Did the original owner give Julianne a $5K dog to find him a good home or did he wash his hands and didn't care if he was killed
in two months. I'd guess the guy that had him for ten months was more bonded then the money grubber who killed him after two?






tracey delin said:


> .. there is a dog that is a problem and dangerous.. you bred it, its brought to your attention you do minimal... basically wash your hands of it.... you no longer have a say in the outcome... in that respect it is part your responsibility that the dog is dead... you didnt do anything either. again going on assumptions here and kinda taking a sidetrack.
> 
> t


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I never quite got the concept of being guilty by association until he was sold to Van Guard K9. Then I felt compelled to remove all Carlos references from any public material I had out there as I didn't want my dog being tied to Carlos (specifically Van Guard) at that point. I can't relate to what he projects but, and this is completely off topic, (actually it's not considering the subject line) but if anyone here has ever talked to that guy (what's his name anyway?) and found him to be a legitimately decent individual let me know.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ob5-kUBq2U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_M03852wmlA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Jj9QJNtDs


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Given the lack of honesty on the part of the OP We have no idea if the breeder was even aware of the problems with this dog or that Julianne was planning on killing him. Did the original owner give Julianne a $5K dog to find him a good home or did he wash his hands and didn't care if he was killed
> in two months. I'd guess the guy that had him for ten months was more bonded then the money grubber who killed him after two?


yup, nothing but assumptions on all of it from one party... but from that... doesnt really sound like any of them gave too much about the dog or the right thing :roll:


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> stories here faster then Keyzer Soze (moviebuffs will know who that is) ...


I LOVE that movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQv2-JCpKMk


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

why not attempt to keep this on track a bit longer so there would be a possibility of some take aways for others ? 
- i have strong feelings on this subject; especially when it involves a dog who is killed for any type of aggression
- i quickly lost it when i read the age of the pup, but i'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt since some grow up faster than others

1. but so far, only ONE post that contained specifics, and when i read it i was trying to connect the dots ... but there weren't very many dots
- and there is NO reason why some of the "others" who worked with the dog couldn't write up what they did and all she has to do is cut/paste to the forum

2. other comments were made about things that didn't add up ... i'm SURE she can explain those too

3. all i read so far was about someone trying to make a drivey working immature pup into a friendly pet thru "socialization", but whenever i have worked with a dog that shows aggression to strangers i go about it a LOT differently than how she wrote it up. if it could be described as a "ten step process", i didn't read much that would have progressed beyond a two, if she did all that she said.... 6-8 hours a day
.... and we probably shouldn't go into "how we would do it" until she has spoken up first

4. finally, her ad clearly stated : " video : YES "
.. GREAT... that means she has em ... lets SEE em ... i'm sure someone could assist her on how to get em posted ... and then she can connect the dots to match her advertising write up, etc

all i'm asking is maybe give her a chance before hanging her, so that others may learn ? she started, so she should be "good and ready" to continue .... and if she's not willing to do that or has nothing further to add; never mind, because any further critique would be a waste of our time


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ob5-kUBq2U
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_M03852wmlA
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Jj9QJNtDs


Yeah I saw all that which is why I said what I did about not being able to relate to what he projects. Can you answer my question? I know you talk to a lot of people, I figured if anyone has talked to him besides Jeff it would have been you.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> I LOVE that movie
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQv2-JCpKMk



You and me both! Best movie ever, followed up by Man on Fire.

Favorite scene ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdeCPGNRjOU 

Favorite Quote ---> Keaton always said, "I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of him." Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Keyser Soze.

Sorry for the off topic but this was a matter of life and death! :lol:


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## Ken Seminatore (Apr 20, 2011)

It's the same old story with the Mals. They get passed on to family to family because they do not understand the Breed and how to deal and train these dogs. Finally, the Mal does not fit into that situation, the Mal can't really exist in a "no traning, no play, no sport, no LE work, nothing. DO NOt get mals or DS for only pets. Get a yorkie, or other non-working breeds and you will be happier. JMO


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:

"It's interesting to observe the energy that the WDF outrage of the month brings to the forum. I often wonder if the people who comment on these issues really are as confrontational and critical as they come off on the forum."

One dog out of, maybe, thousands, has been euthanised when he "might" have had a life with someone who could have given him a future.

I've euthanised a few dogs in my time because their time had come (or, to my shame, maybe could have been euhanised earlier). However, they didn't suffer - I have a good vet who gives them just one injection, but enough!

When we found out that Darach was monorchide, I said maybe we could exchange him but Toni said "No, we would never know what kind of life he would lead with an another handler" however good he turned out to be otherwise"

Today, I'm glad he decided this. Our little lad had a good life with us. We paid for the operation to see if the testicle would be able to be brought down but it was unsuccessful.

We are not "saints" but whatever comes under our responsibility is to protect, perfect or not.

On another side - the technical - not the emotional one:

*How can a breeder be expected to be responsible for each and every pup he breeds? He's not producing an article that can be technically well documented and ensured. He's reliant on the breeders who went before him.*

I don't think it is even a question of who did what wrong or right - come on folks, who can tell?. Is it a genetical fault or has the handler "ruined" the promising pup?

Many breeders will tell you the handler has ruined the pup and many handlers will say the breeder is at fault (although he cannot explain why).

Why don't we look forward, save our breath for the future and leave that that we can't alter be?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thinking about this, I had to laugh - I am sure my mother would gladly have pushed my brother and me out of the litter if she could have - we were not the ideal offspring. But she really loved us and so we were allowed to stay.

But who would she have blamed??? My Dad probably :lol:


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