# How do you pick the pick of the litter



## Julia Tompson

I am wondering if some of you have some good ways of determining the best of the litter starting from birth. 

I am planning to keep one pup of Marsha's litter and I want it to be a dog I could do PP, ASR, or Shutzhund with. 

Every pup is different I was just wondering if you experienced breeders have certain qualities you look for in a pup from day?


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## Hil Harrison

I'm not a breeder Julia and maybe not much help here as there are others who are. I know from a friend of mine who is, she gives the pups a colour tag and observes daily and writes down what she sees. She looks at the temprement, development an sociaal charachter of each pup individually and very closely.

In some pups there is an obvious progression line and the charachter is very stable in the first few weeks up to 7 weeks. The one pup will go off and explore when able as soon as it can and another will stay around the mother. Check out the link underneath, it goes into some detail, and saves me typing it all :lol: 

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0044.htm


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## Julia Tompson

Very informative reading Hil. Thank you that was very helpful. I will keep diary of there behavior and see how they develop. 

Thanks!


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## Greg Long

I look for the one with the most social aggression.Thats about it.

Greg


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I just pick the pup I like most...did it since I was a little child ( my father bred mali´s, so I grew up with litters, breeding and IPO & KNPV).
Can´t describe what makes me choose one of them, but all my favourites did well in sport :wink:


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## Bob Scott

Although I'm not a breeder, I've helped pick pups for lots of folks. It mainly depends on what you want the pup for. Even though a good SAR candidate has many of the same traits that a good sport dog has, the selection begins with knowing a lot about the parents. Thunder was originally chosen for SAR. His dam is awesome on the schutzhund field, but it was her exceptional clear headedness that made me want to look at her pups. I boiled it down to two pups, and chose the one I liked best on color.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

From the last litter we have 1 female for ourselves (well me actually), to bred when she´s ready for it. I have chosen her on the first day  she was the fattest, most independend one around. First day would try to get out of the whelping box. She´s now 9 mo. and a medium height, very heavy built girl with a good grip, stabile. She´s just my little girl  


 bragging I know, Anne at 7 mo.


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## Hil Harrison

Nice well built dog. Im not suprised you kept her.......think Im gonna go Dutchy.....anyone wanna buy 5 mali's :?: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Julia Tompson

I am wondering if anyone has seen or knows of the Carmen Battaglia, 'choosing the best puppy' screening techniques? I just ordered it... I am told it is a great tool for determining the best pup suited for work. I would love to hear some feedback from those who have used his methods. 

Carmen is also the author of the early neurological stimulation theory.


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## Dana McMahan

I did one of Battaglia's short seminars. He really does know dog breeding and had some great ideas on improving a breeding program. I think everyone left the seminar having learned something. Not sure about his videos but I think any material is going to make some contribution to what you know. 

Both the breeder and I picked my bitch the day I saw the litter (day 2). She said \"That mauve puppy just screams bloody murder\" .... mauve was first born girl .... I said THATS THE PUPPY. I could've picked her the day they were born.

Obviously we watched the litter grow up but as they did, she remained the pushiest, most dominant female in the litter. She was the first to explore the puppy pen when they moved from the whelping box, the first to explore the yard when we let them in the yard .... she was always crawling over things or under things .... 10 feet from the rest of the littermates .... and later when they'd all go exploring together, she was the one knocking potted plants over on her brothers! 

One breeder once told me that they pick the puppy before its even dry because its the one that chooses the best nipple on the bitch. I also believe that is true.


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## Julia Tompson

Hi Dana,

I am glad you like Battaglia. I have one female that since birth strays away from the group a lot. She eats and then slithers off by herself while the others tend to say close together. She is only 8 days old and has been doing this right alone. 

As a breeder... what would that mean to you? 

I have also been doing Battaglia's early neurological stim on these pups and this same female tolerates it better then the other dogs, meaning she doesn't resist it that much and she doesn't cry much even when put on the cold wash cloth. Would that indicate anything to you about this pup?

One more question, when you say the best nipple is the best the biggest? Can this test be done at any time or is it just the first time the pup goes to on the nipple that counts.

Thank you!


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## Dana McMahan

Well I'm not an expert but that sounds like the right puppy. The best nipples are the two at the end (caudal) .... they have the most milk and you will usually find your fattest puppies are hogging those nipples. This is usually where my bitch was (under one her gigantic brothers). An old time breeder told me that the puppy he saw go to that nipple the first day was always the pick puppy. From there on, the puppies on those nipples (IMO) shows who's dominant in the litter. The fact that this pups willing to move away from the group shows confidence and security. All puppies eventually want to get out and explore. This puppy just is ahead of the game. One of the boys in our litter was \"red boy\" .... he was twice the size of everyone at birth and first born. He was absolutely gigantic! Eventually the size evened out but he always remained the puppy that slept on the other side of the pen. Very independent. He is now a big impressive young man (2 years old) going through dominance issues because the owner didn't realize how much dog he would become. 

Interesting thing my breeder did when transfering the puppies from the whelping box to the puppy pen (8 X 8). She put all the puppies in a makeshift tote (lid on so it was dark) with an opening for the puppies to crawl out. Funny thing with my puppies uncle....it was the only litter of puppies she ever had where she had to PULL him out of the tote. He was the \"cowardly lion\" of the litter and always remained that way through adult hood. I can't remember but I think my mauve puppy and red puppy were the first two to head out of the tote and explore the puppy pen. These are the kinds of things you'll want to make notes on. For some reason, the drive to explore translates well to a good working dog later on. 


Keep watching those puppies grow. I was lucky that my breeder liked me and had a spare bedroom. I helped her with the litter at various stages and stayed with her for a few weeks as they developed. Its priceless information to just sit and watch the puppies interact with eachother. I would sit and watch for hours, taking in their temperaments. The only thing I wish I had done was shoot more video and take notes. Particularly video of their first time in the pen, first time outdoors, and then typical play sessions outside. 

Hope this helps!


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## Julia Tompson

Dana Williams said:


> ...Hope this helps!


Thanks Dana it really does help. I am taking notes and pictures of everything. It's all very interesting and a lot of fun. I can't wait till they get a little more mobile and fun. :lol:


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## Bob Scott

At aprox 21 days, you'll think someone switched litters on you. That's when they really come ALLIIIIiiiiiiiiiiive!  :lol:


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## Ingrid Rosenquist

*Picking pups*

Last summer I went through all of this for my current puppy. I had \"pick of the litter\" and wanted to carefully evaluate the litter to ensure there was a nice working prospect in the bunch, and if so, which pup. Here is some stuff that I found useful:

*The Puppy Puzzle video by Pat Hastings* - basically shows how to evaluate puppies conformationally - goes into signs of potential problems later on in the pup's life. While I know you are more concerned about temperament, bad front and/or rear angulation will kill you in this sport. Can't do the wall if you don't have the structure to handle it ;-)

*Another Piece of the Puzzle book by Pat Hastings* - Has a series of articles in it written about evaluating puppies for temperament etc.

*Peak Performance book by Chris Zink* - Good all around book by a sports med vet. Fantastic seminar if she is ever in your area.

I combined two puppy evaluation tests for the litter I was looking at:

*The Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test * - 

http://www.volhard.com/puppy/pat.htm

*The PAWS Working Dog Evaluation* - 

http://www.malinut.com/write/paws.shtml

I lived about 350 miles away from the breeder of the litter so I went and saw the pups at 5.5 weeks and than for the final evaluation at 7.5 weeks. I had a local friend check out the pups at 3 weeks as well. At 5.5 weeks I did stacked photos, head shots, and brought a bunch of fun stuff like chamois tugs, plastic balls in a tub (like the ones you see at McDonald Playlands) among other things. I watched how the pups interacted with humans as well as their littermates, whether they would tug and fetch, and what their response was to being put in the tub of balls. 

I did as many environmental things as I could as I knew that the breeder did not know about the *\"Rule of Sevens\"*:

http://www.katwala.com/sevens.html

This is something that I recommend any breeder doing.

At 7.5 weeks, I had a Malinois breeder friend of mine do the final evaluation. Interestingly enough, the pup I had liked in pictures at 3 weeks and continued to like at 5.5 weeks was the final choice. He just had that *something* special.... I did up a binder with a section for each of the 5 pups with photos at 1, 3, 5.5, and 7.5 weeks as well as my written evaluations at 5.5 and 7.5 weeks. I could send you a email copy of a pup's written evaluation if you would like to see what I did.

For the pup I kept, I put up a photo page that shows the \"structure\" progression of the pup so you can kind of see what I did in the first few weeks (and months for that matter ):

http://www.pbase.com/cattledog/growing_boy

One of the things that I wanted to ensure with the pup I got was that he had good rear angulation as his sire and uncle did not have great rear angulation. Luckily, this pup is an improvement on both his sire and uncle.


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## Bob Scott

Excellent articles Ingrid!
A willingness to retrieve would be one of the top requirements for me. That shows a willingness to be part of a team.


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## Ingrid Rosenquist

Thanks Bob! Yes, retrieving was high on my list as well. Sinjin (the chosen pup), retrieved well at 5.5 weeks but at 7.5 weeks was not the strongest retriever - he chased the ball, grabbed it and than laid down and chewed on it. However, the pup that was better than Sinjin lacked many of the other qualities I was looking for (ability to quickly recover, coming to a person when called, tugging, etc). 

To this day, what we saw at 7.5 weeks is his personality. He is VERY into me and has tons of toy drive. Will retrieve anything I throw, however, he has that independent streak that shows when *he* decides that he does not want to come when called or would rather take off with the toy  I just deal with it as I figure there are worse things than a little bullheadedness in a pup!


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## Bob Scott

Yes, definately a combination of things to look for. My reasons for the retrieve being so important is that if there is no desire to chase and retrieve, I don't look any harder at that particular pup. I will also select a pup that doesn't have the best retrieve if all other things stack up well. 
For instance, in SAR work, it's very important that a pup will continue to look for a lost toy. Without that \"hunt drive\" they will loose interest on a search way to fast. Some pups will loose interest as soon as the object is out of site. Others will obsess on finding it.


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## Julia Tompson

*Re: Picking pups*



Ingrid Rosenquist said:


> ... I did up a binder with a section for each of the 5 pups with photos at 1, 3, 5.5, and 7.5 weeks as well as my written evaluations at 5.5 and 7.5 weeks. I could send you a email copy of a pup's written evaluation if you would like to see what I did...


Ingrid, 

That was absolutely the most amazing response. :lol: Thank you so very much. I mean that was as thorough as anything I have read to date including a 200 page book. I know what book I will be ordering today :wink: 

You are a gem. If you dont mind emailing the binder to me that would be awesome

Do you mind telling me what you saw in the 3 week old pup that made him stand out as special? At that age they are still so young but if you have an inside secret I would love to hear it. 

And Bob, you too :lol: - From birth to 3 weeks when they are stills so boring are there any little clues I should watch for? 

My pups are only 13 days old but one puppy seems really independent she seems to prefer to sleep off by herself. Then I have another pup that mouths everything already. Hell try to suck on your face or the floor. It funny to watch him. 

Ingrid thanks again for all time you put into that post.


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## Dana McMahan

Ingrid's post reminded me of something a top breeder friend of mine did (she has 40+ years experience and her breeding program is known all over the world for the impact she has on her breed).....


She is a real stickler about puppy diaries. She did videos of every litter she bred .... each puppy stacked and movement as well as just playing. 

She also took polariod photographs of each puppy stacked front/rear/side and labeled them on the back of the photo. (polariods, BTW are great because I took regular photos and when I developed them a week later I realized how bad certain photos were and it was too late to take new ones of that particular week!)

Anyways she said she laid all the photos out for each puppy for each week (1 wk, 2 wk, 3 wk). Then picked her favorite puppy from each set of photos.

She said she knew her Pick of Litter because when she flipped over the photograph, it was the same puppy throughout the weeks. This, of course, was a conformation breeder but it was not only valuable documentation of the puppies progress but was great to compare later on when she had bred her first multi BISS winning (breeder/owner/handled) dog, she had photos of him and later picked other pick puppies by comparing him at those ages to the current pups. 

While I'm thinking about it, \"Winning with Purebred Dogs\" by Alvin and Beverly Grossman has a great chapter on picking puppies, that includes their own documantion of a Cocker Spanial litter. Again, conformation but its the documation that is important. The more you record, the better. Especially as they develop and start offering up more behaviors and responses to their environment.


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## Colin Chin

Hello Folks,
That was an awesome piece of infor and discussion about selecting a desireable pup. Cheers.

p/s: Hi Ingrid, may I have the infor of binder that you mentioned earlier on ? 


Regards,
Colin


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## Liz Monty

In the past I always picked the puppy who had a great prey drive showing up and showed confidence, not necissarily the dominant of the pack. They turned out good, if not for protection, always for search work.
This new puppy is a whole different ball game. She was imported in from Germany and I had not even looked up her lines. Just knew she was west german and I was used to East or Czech lines. She got me the minute I laid eyes on her. She acted smart. She showed thought and decision making. I had not seen this before and just fell head over heals for her. I hope my immediate liking of this girl is what I am hoping for. LOL


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## Greg Long

Either wait until everyone else has picked and take the one that's left or walk in backwards with your hand behind your back and take whichever one you grab first. That's the only way to ensure you'll get the "pick of the litter."


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## Andres Martin

> "There is no squabbling so violent as that between people who accepted an idea yesterday and those who will accept the same idea tomorrow."


 Is this thought the disguised Chihuahua's? If so, my hat's off...

You can only go so far with a given gene set...
A given gene set expresses some of itself early on...
Greg...when you walk in backwards, are you carrying a rearview mirror and a copy of the "Monks of New Skete" book?

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guest

I have never had a first hand opportunity to pick a pup, mine have always been from quite a distance from me.

Just as well, I would probably be wrong in my choice. I look for a breeder that works their dogs in some way similar to what I want to do. Having a look at the parents working will give someone a *general* idea of what you might expect, but with pups it's still like a toss of the dice.

It would be nice to pick the best, but sometimes even second or third is more than what most expect, with the right training.


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## Lyn Chen

Would prefer a breeder who has consistency in his lines so most of the litter would be uniform...I don't believe in 'pick of the litter', in a general sense. Maybe at that age. Good luck in twelve months.


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## Colin Chin

Hope my next question here is still falls within the intended discussion of this topic. Talking about uniformity of a particular litter. What's the precentage/ratio in a working line litter that is useful for working purposes ? I was told before that in a litter, may be 1 or two are working prospects. Correct me if I am wrong in my assupmtion. Cheers.

Regards,
Colin


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## Lyn Chen

Define "working purposes".

If club level sport, possibly most of the litter would be good.


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## Colin Chin

Hello Lyn,
My defination of 'working purposes' are like Law enforcement work, military, SAR. Not relating to sports training.


Regards,
Colin


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## Daryl Ehret

In one breeding, I had 2 or 3 good working prospects of 11 pups. Later in a repeat breeding, same parents, all 8 would have made suitable prospects for work, a very uniform breeding. It's just a roll of the dice if the parents are differing in type. Like Gerry mentioned, looking at the parents is the first important step.

In a non-uniform litter, there may be more obvious shortcomings or advantages with a particular pup that makes selection easier. But I've experienced exceptions to the "best nipple" rule. In 8-12 weeks, the smallest pups can easily catch up in size, or develop the best agression or pack status. Sometimes the "wild child" can mellow out through adolescence.

Early enviromental and social influences are fluctuant, though the genetic makeup is set. The breeder's and your interaction and involvement with the pup are going to have the most impact on later development. Puppy imprinting or mild stress induction can help shape this development. Some things are considered genetic, for example sound-sensitivity, and these are what you really want to watch for when selecting. The least "adventuresome" pup might be avoided as well.

Research the parents, compare their characteristics, see what they've produced themselves, and what they were produced from. That's the single most important step prior to selecting from the litter. It's probably safer to choose a litter from parents of similar type, depending on your pick status, but not essential.


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## Colin Chin

Another issue I would like to raise here is the age of the dam. Does age has anything got to do with the uniformity in a litter ? Daryl has pointed out that his second breeding on the same sire and dam produced eight working prospect in that litter as compares to the first litter that has only two working prospect.

Another off track point is that at what age should a dam be retired from breeding ? Thanks.


Regards,
Colin


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## Daryl Ehret

Not in that particular case, the parents are just very dissimilar. That particular female I mentioned was about 3 1/2 years old in my first breeding with her, and had produced prior to my owning her. But yes, I think age can make a difference, and the first litter may not be as successful as the next. I prefer to wait until the female is about two years old, more mature and confident for her first breeding.


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## Don Turnipseed

Before this thread gets to outdated, I will share how I pick pups. First, they are born and reared outside in suitable whelping boxes. They are not handles for the first 4 to 4 1/2 weeks. During this time, they have had ample opportunity to hear my voice when cleaning the pen. Once they can navigate up and down the two step in and out of the whelping box. That is when I go out and sit and watch them and talk to them. I want to do this before the environment has any impact on them. The dogs are bred close so they will all hunt, but, how outstanding they are will be determined by their individual confidence. All I look for is confidence. The first one to boldly walk up is noted, each of the rest in successive order also. The, they are noted for confident/ independent or confident/dependent depending on what type of work they will be doing. It's really simple...leave em alone and let mom raise them for a few weeks. The only pups that benefit from all the conditioning from day one is the less confident ones. The gooduns belly up to the bar with or without conditioning.


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## susan tuck

I'm with Selena & would go with the pup I liked the best. Of course I'm assuming they are bold, outgoing & inquisitive. JULIA, WHICH ONE DID YOU KEEP?


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Before this thread gets to outdated, I will share how I pick pups. First, they are born and reared outside in suitable whelping boxes. They are not handles for the first 4 to 4 1/2 weeks. During this time, they have had ample opportunity to hear my voice when cleaning the pen. Once they can navigate up and down the two step in and out of the whelping box. That is when I go out and sit and watch them and talk to them. I want to do this before the environment has any impact on them. The dogs are bred close so they will all hunt, but, how outstanding they are will be determined by their individual confidence. All I look for is confidence. The first one to boldly walk up is noted, each of the rest in successive order also. The, they are noted for confident/ independent or confident/dependent depending on what type of work they will be doing. It's really simple...leave em alone and let mom raise them for a few weeks. The only pups that benefit from all the conditioning from day one is the less confident ones. The gooduns belly up to the bar with or without conditioning.


Don, have you seen any of the of the biosensor studies on newborn pups?
My GSD Thunder was exposed to all of this. I don't know if or how much influence it had but he's one fantastic dog!
Coures he had some pretty nice genetics also. 
http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/achiever.html


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## Don Turnipseed

I thought a lot of it looked real familiar Bob. At the end when it Mentioned the Super Dog Program....I knew where I had seen it. Interesting study and it has been a long time since I have seen it. I can see some correlation in the comments to what I see in the yard here. Particularly in reaching my hand over their head. I have to get them accustom to that early but is is more with the less confident as is most other things on the downside. From what I have seen over the years, even though all the dogs are homozygous, there is still a big variation in confidence levels. I think the most confident pup can do the most with what they are born with. The problem is, it is difficult to pick them out when they have been handled from day one. It is surprisingly easy if you wait till they are on their feet....but you have to do it before the environmental influence begins. What you see this way is the most basic natural dog. If he is naturally confident, it shows. If he is independent and confident...it shows. I am not sure there is any perfect way.


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## Bob Scott

By waiting for the 4-4 1/2 weeks that would eliminate any "man made" confidence.
Very interesting!


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob, I breed for working ability. The breeding for traits has a lot of pitfalls. One of them, IMHO, is the practice of conditioning all pups to being handled under the guise they make better dogs. First off, conditioning prevents you from easily recognizing the sound good dogs because they all "appear" to be outgoing and confident. Believe me, after years of breeding, the one thing I can't control is the confidence level. Some are inherently more confident than others. Conditioning "only" benefits the less confident. The truly confident pups come walking up to me to check me out with no problem. The next ones that were standing back not sure what to think, then gain confidence in seeing that the first ones seem to be enjoying the contact with me. Then there are the pets....they are still not confident enough to make the move towards me but will in due time.....maybe an hour or maybe a day. It doesn't matter. If I want a dog that will be in a high stress situation....I want one of the first dogs that strolled up to me. Conditioning only makes the less confident appear confident. Going back to the link you gave me. It mentioned that all things being equal, there is something that better equips some dogs to use their inherent abilities better. I think it is the confidence level. Confident people even are usually the most successful even if they are not as smart. 

In short, as a breeder, I don't want to see a conditioned pup. I also don't want to try and evaluate that pup after it has been in the yard with 25 dogs for two months. I want to evaluate the pup and nothing else, no conditioning and no environmental influence. That, IMHO, is the only way you can pick the pup with the most potential from litter. The other pitfalls may be that the dogs are not really working bred dogs. Maybe none are going to be good prospects. A friend of mine just spent a few years and a lot of $ on schutzhund. He decided the dog is to soft and asked what he should look for. I told him to look at the pedigree first. If it is truly a working bred dog, you will see the same kennel names paired up on every line of the pedigree. I told him to compare some of the European pedigrees to American pedigrees. In Airedales, one is lucky to see the same name more than a couple of times. He came down from Washington a couple of weeks ago. when he came in the yard, he had one of those dummies on a rope that he twirled around and threw out there in front of some 6 mo old pups. He said he wanted to see if they had any drive. I have never watched any of this before but here is a picture.


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## Daryl Ehret

Here's an analogy: I learned to read on about a 4th grade level before I was in kindergarten (age six). Opening my senses to early learning, didn't do a whole lot for me, as I still barely graduated from highschool with a 2.0 average. I was a consistent A+ student in some areas I liked alot, but failed in others. A few straight years of 98%+ on SAT scores could have earned me a scholarship, but behavior is partly a learned thing, and my habits were not where my aptitude could have taken me.

_"One of the fascinating aspects of the dog's mind is that learning improves when the emotion of INTREST is aroused..."
Bruce Fogle_

Could be wrong, but I don't think that Early Neurological Stimulation creates anything "man made" or any real kind of "Super Dog", just as imprinting or conditioning for early learning that helps to facilitate later training, which may not be of any overall consequence in the total measure of the dog. Some training, I would do when young, some when older. The pace I took would just depend on the dog.


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## Bob Scott

Just as I would have expected! 
A working bred terrier without drive? 
Isn't that a contradiction! :lol: :lol: 
Do your dogs have a pretty good coat? Is it coarse?
Other then my Kerrys I've always hand stripped all of my terriers. That would be quite a job with one of the big guys. 
I've seen to many Airedales with really linty coats if they weren't handled with care.


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## Don Turnipseed

Daryl Ehret said:


> Here's an analogy: I learned to read on about a 4th grade level before I was in kindergarten (age six). Opening my senses to early learning, didn't do a whole lot for me, as I still barely graduated from highschool with a 2.0 average. I was a consistent A+ student in some areas I liked alot, but failed in others. A few straight years of 98%+ on SAT scores could have earned me a scholarship, but behavior is partly a learned thing, and my habits were not where my aptitude could have taken me.
> 
> _"One of the fascinating aspects of the dog's mind is that learning improves when the emotion of INTREST is aroused..."
> Bruce Fogle_
> 
> Could be wrong, but I don't think that Early Neurological Stimulation creates anything "man made" or any real kind of "Super Dog", just as imprinting or conditioning for early learning that helps to facilitate later training, which may not be of any overall consequence in the total measure of the dog. Some training, I would do when young, some when older. The pace I took would just depend on the dog.


 I am not going to say what is right or wrong for the general masses Daryl. This works for me and I have raised them in the living room and kissyface them from day one with the best of them. Didn't like playing roulette when it came time to make the choices of you got what. There is a picture of Curtis at 7 1/2 mo in schutzhund training. Picked him at 4 weeks shipped at 6 and he was keeping up with all the breeds. They said he was a bit aggressive with the other dogs at 4 mo but they could control it. He was a freebie just to check the breeding. I have dogs doing a lot of things from birds, water retrieving, state certified therapy dogs, bear dogs, hog dogs, lions and coyotes. Some have CD's and CDX's and one was the high point obedience dog in the 2005 Great Western Terrier Show in So. Ca. One thing they haven't done is conformation but I can live with that. This may not be the end all way of doing things, but, the way I see it, they are dogs. If they are not allowed to be dogs then all dog training needs revising because it was designed for dogs.

Now, I finished HS in adult school and both my folks were teachers. The only thing I excelled at other than being expelled was I was in the 99 percentile nationwide in abstract reasoning. It has been a curse of sorts...like looking at several, seemingly, unrelated things and forming a conclusion. I have come to the conclusion that the key is confidence...but no one can tell em apart. But, it is just my opinion.


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## Daryl Ehret

> I am not going to say what is right or wrong for the general masses Daryl.


I guess in a round about way, I was saying I fully agree with you. Especially if you're selecting for breeding, why try to confuse matters with cover-up conditioning. The bit I might do is mostly for puppy buyer's benefit or request, and even then it's not too terribly hard to see through to the true nature of the dog. Like you say, "If he is naturally confident, it shows." And I'll add _intrest or enthusiasm for the work._


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## Don Turnipseed

Daryl, I really thought you were in disagreement...which most people do. In all honesty premature handling and stimulation have any detrimental effects on the pups. Mom licks them all the time to stimulate certain responses. Also, by not handling for 4 1/2 weeks, there are many things that I have to be very aware of. the hand shyness in the less confident can be pronounced if you put your hand "over" their head, not as much so if I come under their chin. Once I realized I always brought my hand up, the problem was easily solved. I have had pups that were really independent and would blow me off every time I told them to come. If I chased them it became a game and would quickly be ingrained because it is not a desirable thing. Some time back I noticed one of the other pups always ran and grabbed any that ran from me by the neck and he would hold them till I got their. Luckily, he picked up the "go get em Joe" command in just a few times. Those running dogs quit running after he catches them up a few times and come to me. He doesn't hurt them but he isn't near as rewarding as I am. Anyway, getting back to the subject, I do have to watch each of the less confident pups and handle them a lot after I have decided they are no going to working homes. 

Bob, I have a few with cotton coats but mainly the older ones. The younger ones are getting back to what they should be. I have never stripped a dog. I use a pair of Stewart's horse clippers. From the time I set a dog on the box, after being out all winter, I can have them off the box in 30 minutes all clipped except for the bottoms of their feet. I will never use another pair of dog clippers.


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## Maren Bell Jones

My parents read to me when I was very very young so that I could read enough on my own to start kindergarten when I was 4 (this isn't done anymore). I graduated top 10%, very respectable SAT/ACTs, got my two degrees in biology and religious studies and a minor in history in four years from the University of Missouri with departmental and Honors College honors, I'm getting my masters in biology in three years and woulda had it done sooner, but there's a reason research is sometimes called "re-search." :roll: I'm hopefully going to vet school for next fall (I'll find out in April or so). Typical of parents being really gung ho with their first kid, they did not read to my brothers nearly as much. Two are not doing so hot in college (one dropped out) and one is doing fine (he's a senior finance major at a private school). So same parents, similar genetics (but not identical, of course), the same home environment. I'm definitely reading to my kids at a very early age! Or maybe I'm just by genetics a hard tempered, socially aggressive bitch. Hubby has to watch out for dominance mounting. Spaying might just make it worse. :twisted: :lol: 

Point is, Don, I see your reasons for wanting to pick the best purely on genetics and not environmental factors, but it sure doesn't seem to hurt to do those sorts of manipulations early on for the benefit of the other pups. Even if you had your one very very good pup from the get-go that would be totally suited for law enforcement or military work, what about those other pups? They don't just go away (I disagree with culling other than not letting them breed later on). Let's get some benefit from them with this protocol for sport homes or high energy pet homes. From how you describe, you might not be able to see the confidence so undeniably black and white, but I think the benefits to the rest of the litter outweigh some possible ambiguity. JMHO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am with Don on this one. This thread has made me think a lot about some very interesting things.

Here is one to think about. We did not do much with pups when I was young, and the shy ones lost out. Most people agree we had some pretty good dogs back then, just not overly willing.



Consequently, In our quest to improve willingness, by making ourselves known from the start, did we improve willingness, or pack drive?


Answer this one smarty pants      :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren, aside from parents always spoiling the girls. :lol: It is only four weeks Maren. Contrary to popular belief, they don't turn in to monsters and the pups actually make better pets for the average pet owner than would one of the one I would pick. I am set up with electric fences in between yards and on outer fences to keep control of my personal dogs when some are coming into heat etc etc. You will find, I challenge most of today's beliefs regarding dogs. My dogs give me a purpose but, I don't believe they are my equal today nor will I tomorrow. I raise them to have a purpose. If they just want to sit in my lap, they are outa here. If they walk with me while hunting, they are outa here. I have them in huge yards with oak trees every where and seasonal creeks. They do not go to town with me or for rides. when I walk out the door with a pistol or a rifle, pandemonium breaks out. They all vie for who is going. They know where they are going and they know what they are going for. They are intense. Airedales hunt for the fight. That is their reward. When the game is dead, they have no interest in it, you either get a leash on them or they leave and look for another hog. I hunt what is commonly referred to as alpha dogs together. The drive is strong enough there are no problems but, when they are coming back in to the truck and the hunt is over things can get dicey fast. Hunter has to be picked up first regardless. If I so much as touch another dog he is on them. 

I spend more time with the pet pups than any of the other if that helps.  They are the ones that need it. Maren, think about this, I love my dogs, I love the breed, that is why I am the way I am with them. I have expectations of them and they will meet them or I will quit breeding working dogs. I didn't start this to be fair to the weak. That is what is wrong with so many breed today. IMHO of course :roll:


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## Daryl Ehret

An army veteran, I know a bit about pack drive in my own way, and have an intrest in bettering the quality of the breed and restoring the qualities that may becoming more scarce, such as stronger nerves. I'm not sure about sure about willingness of the dogs of the past, but I think genuine intrest and enthusiasm for the work, rather than subordinate-placating-behavior is the key to "real" pack drive. Sort of a 'patriotism' or 'team spirit'. If compulsion was the primary method of training, then it would be no surpise that sort of willingness was not overly abundant. Not to say that compulsion does'nt have an appropriate place. My opinion is that all the emphasis on 'positive training' has had an impact on modern breeding selection. I think it is leading to weaker nerved dogs. I don't believe that over-selection for unbalanced drives can be good for the breed. I think that positive training and compulsion both have their place among today's methods, as opposed to training by solely one or the other. Most people that are against one approach or another often don't even realize that they actually use both to some degree.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: but I think genuine intrest and enthusiasm for the work, rather than subordinate-placating-behavior is the key to "real" pack drive

You have lost me. Must be an Army thing.  

So in your terms, willingness is along the lines of subordinate-placating-behavior? AND consequently, bad?

And, interest and enthusiasm for the work, do you call that drive? More drive, more interest?


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## Daryl Ehret

I don't want to get into what's a drive or what's not.

Either you do something or you don't.

When you do, it's either because you have an actual desire to, or you're just avoiding the consequenses of _not doing it,_ or maybe even somewhere in between.

Is pack drive more than a 'willingness to please'? I think so.

Does a strong social bond with the handler show a lack of independance? Not necessarily. Depends on yours and the dog's basic demeanor.

A dog can have a desire for something that is not crucial to it's survival, not just a base instinct. This 'want', this desire, is what 'drives' the activity. I think the 'motivation' behind the drive is as important at the energy that pushes it. I suppose confidence and pack drive are more of an aspect of temperament. Where pack drive is the bond with the handler, and confidence is the attitude in which the duties are performed.

We often hear the coined term "balanced drives", but what about "balanced temperament" or "balanced thresholds"? "Hardness to the handler" seems to mean higher threshold and less "pack drive", meaning more compulsive training methods. "Too soft" or "weak nerved" seems a place for purely positive methods. IMO, purely positive just can't work well alone on a strong nerved dog, even with a good social bonding with the handler.

A balance of strong nerve AND intrest for the work AND intensity in the work is primarily what I'd look for myself. My next male will be from a Max van Tiekerhook breeding, so I expect there will be a higher social-agression and more intense drives than some people would care for. But I feel it will complement my breeding program well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: so I expect there will be a higher social-agression and more intense drives than some people would care for.

Then there are the Mal people.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

One of these days I am just gonna have to call, or come by. This typing forum crap is driving me nuts this morning. I am not even close, so I am quitting for now.


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## Maren Bell Jones

If you did the protocol for those kinds of manipulations, I would think it would be of benefit to the very confident pups to make them more confident, a benefit to the middle of the road of the litter to push them over the hump so to speak, and the pups that have shoddy *insert nerves, drives, confidence, whatever here* that it wouldn't make a ton of difference. If you've got a practiced eye, you can still tell who will be more appropriate for which kind of home. Sorry to go back to the rodent thing, but mice and rats who are handled every day from birth by a human just for a few minutes have lower adult corticosteroid levels and they do not tend to stress out as easily as adults as those pups raised with a hands off approach. Just something to think about. It's always environment playing on the genetics.


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## Don Turnipseed

Don't quit now Jeff, differing views are what make it interesting and informative. 

Maren, I have raised pups in the living room and handled them from day one as I said. My intentions are no to "push" any over the hump. My intentions is to place them properly according to the tools they are born with. I have never been able to control varying confidence levels in a litter. I suspect they would have to be cloned to even approach that. I think, people dogs and everything else is born with a specific threshold of confidence. Manipulating them may make them "appear" to be more confident but, it is just that....only appearance. Many venues, serious man work, facing 300lb hogs on their turf are extremely high stress situations. That threshold of confidence will limit the amount of stress any individual dog or person can withstand. If it is passed, they cave in. I am not looking for dogs that 90% of the time "appear to be solid"..I want a dog that is so solid it can come close to ding and turn around and do it again the next day ....and want to do it. They are out there. If you go back a post or two, you will see what my dogs do raised this way. It is not harmful, but beneficial to the dog in my mind. There are dogs, out of the same cross doing protection and treeing 120lb lions by them selves at 7 1/2 months with older brothers and sisters Cali. State certified therapy dogs which is heavy on temperament and obedience. The 7 1/2 mo old was sold as a pet and was picked solely because he was the biggest in the litter and I do have reservations on how far he can go but he is surprising me at this point. Solid, sound dogs as opposed to dogs that have been manipulated by different rearing practices today, are like apples and oranges in my mind. In big game hunting, everything is totally dependent on the "natural ability of the dog. They have it or they don't and there is no in between. There are no manipulation by man that can make a dog something he is not. Manipulating is an excellent word for what is done because it just covers up what is really inside.

I want to ask You Maren, if you have ever run across a study of canines pertaining to siblings and blood relatives protecting each other even up to the loss of their own life. I think this studies findings were that this behavior is common up to first cousins but it may stop sooner. I have lost this study and would sure like to find out where I can find it. I doubt many of these studies are valid when the test animals are manipulated prior to the study ....


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## Maren Bell Jones

I don't know about wolves or other canids, but Belding's ground squirrels are the classic mammalian example in kin selection and altruism. The female scouts would be more likely to whistle for danger the more closely related they are, even for nondescendent kin (i.e.-aunts, cousins). Here's a summary:

http://www.taumoda.com/web/PD/library/kin.html


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: a benefit to the middle of the road of the litter to push them over the hump 

Kind of NOT what we should be trying to do.


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## Don Turnipseed

Daryl Ehret said:


> An army veteran, I know a bit about pack drive in my own way, and have an intrest in bettering the quality of the breed and restoring the qualities that may becoming more scarce, such as stronger nerves. I'm not sure about sure about willingness of the dogs of the past, but I think genuine intrest and enthusiasm for the work, rather than subordinate-placating-behavior is the key to "real" pack drive. Sort of a 'patriotism' or 'team spirit'. If compulsion was the primary method of training, then it would be no surpise that sort of willingness was not overly abundant. Not to say that compulsion does'nt have an appropriate place. My opinion is that all the emphasis on 'positive training' has had an impact on modern breeding selection. I think it is leading to weaker nerved dogs. I don't believe that over-selection for unbalanced drives can be good for the breed. I think that positive training and compulsion both have their place among today's methods, as opposed to training by solely one or the other. Most people that are against one approach or another often don't even realize that they actually use both to some degree.


,I agree, Daryl, about the "positive training" and "compulsion". I asked a question an the bite work forum regarding how to increase a dogs drive in the bite. If he is not highly drive, why worry about increasing it. I think positive training techniques may have arisen because of the lack of good dogs being bred for any really intense purposes. Most people in today's society feel they owe the dog something and will keep them for better or worse. They got a dud or a mediocre dog but they want to do schutzhund. Positive training techniques make it possible and I have even see dogs titled to schutzhund III that were meat heads. First off the dog only performed well on home turf where it was trained. Secondly, it received the sch III when the owners significant other was doing the decoy work but, that is who the dog was used to. There are ways to title dogs but that doesn't mean the are deserving of the title. Positive training made it possible in part because the dog would have folded to start with with many of the other methods of training. I am afraid the trainer that caused an ill equipped dog to fold these days would be labeled as a lousy trainer.


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## Maren Bell Jones

> Kind of NOT what we should be trying to do.


Jeff, depends on who "we" is. I'm not saying that is the greatest idea if your interested in having these dogs be PSD or MWDs. On the other hand, if the middle of the road dogs might be decent sport prospects, might as well give them a boost. It's not a life or death situation if your dog doesn't get titled as high as you'd like afterall. I'm trained as a biologist, so my point is that it is not so simple to just have your genetics carry you through without a helping hand from the environment. I still say the benefits to all or most of the pups (including the top pups) of doing those manipulations outweigh possible ambiguousness in selecting the top dog(s) from the litter.


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