# sit. good sit.



## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

I overheard someone training thier dog while i was walking Arrow this morning. she told her young pup to sit, and when it did, she said "good sit". I think this would confuse the dog as to whether Sit means to put your but on the floor, or whether sit means you should already have your butt on the floor. It seemed me to like one of those (and no offense to any that do only positive) positive only gimics. 

thoughts?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Not sure it would confuse the dog. I have seen tons of people train this way with good results. 

However when I train obedience stuff, the dog gets the command, performs the command and then I say "good" or "yes". 

If the dog tries to break, I simply repeat during the learning process. Once I know that the dog understands completely what I want is when I would correct if they A) did not do what was told or B) tried to break. 

Personally, I try to keep what I say to the dog short and sweet since if I add more I tend to screw up more...


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> ...
> If the dog tries to break, I simply repeat during the learning process. Once I know that the dog understands completely what I want is when I would correct if they A) did not do what was told or B) tried to break...


Is age also factor for when you start adding corrections? If so, how do you gauge when the dog is mature enough? Does that also depend on drive levels? I'm a bit conflicted in this area. I want to keep it fun and positive but also want the dog to eventually obey even if it doesn't want to.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jaimie Van Orden said:


> I overheard someone training thier dog while i was walking Arrow this morning. she told her young pup to sit, and when it did, she said "good sit". I think this would confuse the dog as to whether Sit means to put your but on the floor, or whether sit means you should already have your butt on the floor. It seemed me to like one of those (and no offense to any that do only positive) positive only gimics.
> 
> thoughts?


I see a lot of people do this. I still can't make any sense of it. The thought behind it is you would be "reinforcing the command."

But when the dog learns the behavior first, before the behavior is named, the "sit, good sit." is unneccessary, and suddenly seems confusing and ridiculous.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I see a lot of people do this. I still can't make any sense of it. The thought behind it is you would be "reinforcing the command."
> 
> But when the dog learns the behavior first, before the behavior is named, the "sit, good sit." is unneccessary, and suddenly seems confusing and ridiculous.


Ahhhh. So keep command only to the ACTION not both the sit POSITION and sit ACTION. I keep wanting to do what you describe to reinforce the command with the position in addition to the action. I think I'll change to just say gooooooooood for holding the position. It does seem that would be more consistent for the dogs mind.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

OK Carol, you and I are on the same page. Foundation work in training I always say sit then treat, then good sit and treat again when he don't get up and then I release him. If he does get up I tell him no and the correction is no reward. He MUST do it correct to get the reward. The best correction in foundation training is no reward. When he understands and you know he knows, then I would use a small leash correction because then the dog is just blowing you off, sticking his tounge out at you, shooting you the bird.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> OK Carol, you and I are on the same page. Foundation work in training I always say sit then treat, then good sit and treat again when he don't get up and then I release him. If he does get up I tell him no and the correction is no reward. He MUST do it correct to get the reward. The best correction in foundation training is no reward. When he understands and you know he knows, then I would use a small leash correction because then the dog is just blowing you off, sticking his tounge out at you, shooting you the bird.



Exactly....thank you for explaining that. I was just popping in to do so...:mrgreen: 

I wanted to explain that when I say correction, I do not use a yank and crank method of correction very often, if a dog needs one of those, I have done something very incorrect in the training dept. 
I know there are times that my dogs just flip the furry finger, BUT, we must ask ourselves "WHY are they doing it?" 

Have they become bored because of too much repetition in training? Is the reward ENOUGH to make it better than anything else out there? OR, even though I gave the command, did I do something to confuse the dog or allow the dog that second of disrespect?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Is age also factor for when you start adding corrections? If so, how do you gauge when the dog is mature enough? Does that also depend on drive levels? I'm a bit conflicted in this area. I want to keep it fun and positive but also want the dog to eventually obey even if it doesn't want to.

No, age is not a factor. Consider that dogs learn the situation and pattern that get them what they want LONG before they know what you are talking about.

Always take this into consideration before using a correction. 

An example of this is your at a BBQ and your buddy is telling you his dog knows the basics, and then proceeds to chase his dog around going sit, sit, sit, and the dog is looking at him like a retard.

However, if you take that same dog into the kitchen, by the refrigerator, he will bust out a sit like he knows it well.

This is the meaning of foundation work. If this is all that has been done, you can see where the shit is gonna topple. So before busting out a correction, your dog should be able to sit every time in front of you, at heel, behind you, to your right, at a distance, in the middle of doing something, ect before you can say that he "knows it".


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .... before busting out a correction, your dog should be able to sit every time in front of you, at heel, behind you, to your right, at a distance, in the middle of doing something, ect before you can say that he "knows it". .... _ This is the meaning of foundation work._


I cannot count the number of times that someone has said "I KNOW he knows the command; he's just being stubborn (or giving me the furry finger, or testing me, or whatever)" when the real issue was exactly that: different venue, different circumstances, even different inflection. And a biggie: The owner has been accidentally setting a pattern in the order of commands when doing basic ob work, and then upsets the pattern that he has trained, all unaware.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Related to what Connie just posted, I always got a kick out of what I call the "ninja moves" - when folks in my obedience classes would contort their bodies with one arm extended towards the dog while slinking away from their dogs saying, "staaaaay....staaaaay.....staaaaaaay" 

Then they couldn't figure out why the dog wouldn't stay when they simply said stay and walked away.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> .... I always got a kick out of what I call the "ninja moves" - when folks in my obedience classes would contort their bodies with one arm extended towards the dog while slinking away from their dogs saying, "staaaaay....staaaaay.....staaaaaaay"
> 
> Then they couldn't figure out why the dog wouldn't stay when they simply said stay and walked away.


AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I can picture the palm towards the dog, human walking backwards while using a 5-syllable "staaaaaaaaay" command .....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I used the "goood sit" for years before I did marker training. I think it boils down to the difference in tone between a "SIT" and a soft "goood sit". Tone and inflection means a hell of a lot more to a dog then the actual word. I was useing it as a bridge (IB). I just didn't know it then. :lol: 
As far as age for correction goes. A dog with high drive for food or toy is corrected by the loss of reward, as Jerry commented. Loss of reward can be just as crushing as any physical correction. 
Not meaning to do an add here but I just got the new Leerburg DVD on marker trianing. It's as good as any training DVD I've seen. Great explinations for all the phases of marker training. 
Ed also adds correction to his marker training but he goes into a nice explination of the difference between correction and compulsion. A great DVD! JMHO!
The "I KNOW he knows the command" is totally situational, as Jeff commented.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I think my most favorite part of training is when your dog's light bulb starts to get brighter.....I love it when the pups start throwing behaviors (before we even speak to them) in anticipation of the reward. 

Somehow it is really endearing to watch the ears up, eyes bright and you know the brain is firing as they sit, flop down, run between your legs, look around and then repeat the process. You know your training is paying off when the pup offers behaviors for the reward......

And then, when you finally give them a command, they do it with a force that says...."GIMMMEEEE...."


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I used the "goood sit" for years before I did marker training. I think it boils down to the difference in tone between a "SIT" and a soft "goood sit". Tone and inflection means a hell of a lot more to a dog then the actual word. I was useing it as a bridge (IB). I just didn't know it then. :lol: quote]
> 
> I'm in this boat, the "good" started out my marker but is now usually all my dog gets as a reward. I rearely pop my dog for not doing a command when he gets "no" instead of good, it's almost as harsh in his eyes as a crank. He's quick to fix the problem and jumps at the chance to do it right.


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