# Breeding to old studs



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hi guys,
Just thought i would ask something i had been thinking of for a while. We talk of how good the old studs were, if we still have the semen of these "Great dogs' we could breed them to our prsent bitches and maybe produce some better dogs, i'm talking of dogs like-

Troll v haus milinda
Nick vom heiligenbosch
Fero
Yoschy
Belshick
Tom vant leefdalhof
Pike
Orry antverpa
and many more...........


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

What exactly is the question? Are you asking if people would do it, or what old dog they would like to have semen from or ??


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Well the question is if doing it will help improve the quality of the breed by having a higher population of very good dogs.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Old studs are usually retired for a reason, some of them being low sperm count leading to small litters on non conception, poor quality pups after they pass their prime, or genetic defects that only display themselves after the dog is well into maturity.
Same goes for dams. The potential for good in such a practice does exist, but is usually outweighed by the negatives. But I've always believed in keeping the better bloodlines around by line breeding then outcrossing them for a little vigor. 
But thats just my opinion.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Old studs are usually retired for a reason, some of them being low sperm count leading to small litters on non conception, poor quality pups after they pass their prime, or genetic defects that only display themselves after the dog is well into maturity.
> Same goes for dams. The potential for good in such a practice does exist, but is usually outweighed by the negatives. But I've always believed in keeping the better bloodlines around by line breeding then outcrossing them for a little vigor.
> But thats just my opinion.


I think he is talking frozen semen, or hypothetical, I think these dogs are dead...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Yeah i mean frozen semen, i think Ed frwaley did similar things with natan v busecker schloss.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Yeah i mean frozen semen, i think Ed frwaley did similar things with natan v busecker schloss.


 Has anyone even heard how any of those Natan pups turned out? There was a litter of them here a number of years ago, not much chop.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I checked his progeny on the pedigree database site, i didn't see any popular dogs there.


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas (Oct 1, 2009)

You have to start Breeding With Malinois to improve the Breed!!! (kidding lol)

I Think it would be Great to have Frozen semen of all the great Studs (already dead) available for the Breeding programs.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think it can be quite useful. Look at how many people linebreed on some of the better known dogs. Then think about taking the female back to the dog himself, instead of using his son, grandson, etc to try to linebreed with. If you are trying to concentrate certain genes, best way to do it is to go to the source.


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

I totally agree Kadi.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks for the input kadi, i think this is kind of what koos hasssind was doing with nick vom heiligenbosch and i like what he has produced especially the very hard females he has bred. I think mali breeders did a lot of breedings on their very best males and they are pretty successful now. 
@kadi What percentage of the average mali litter would be good fo police work/top sport? People complain about GSDs and from what i've heard in a litter of 8 you'd probabbly have 1 or 2 police k9 prospects. And what do you think is responsible for the mali now IMO having such a high success rate in police work and top sport???


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## Janette Oglesby (Dec 2, 2009)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=645989&modir=578191

I have the above breeding in mind for next spring.I think it does what you are referring to.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

It would still be safer to linebreed from progeny, cuz sooner or later, your gonna run out of semen from the original stock. That's if the idea is to increase the population of working prospects.
It may take a few years & a good deal of time, money,effort,research, record keeping & unbiased assessment of the pups qualities for each pup in each litter,but its doable.
Also as a bonus, one could potentially breed for increased isogenicity, to recreate the original stud's genetics as close as possible. Again it would be a lot of work,but doable.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

thought this was a thread about jeff o


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

@Janette- That's a nice pedigree with the heuske dogs in it, but an example of what i meant was like having half vom ruhbachtal as the stud and hindi down or something like that.
@ricardo-that's another good idea i think. I also think that in breeding from progeny once a good stud has been identified he should be bred to as many good bitches as possible, i think variety should come more from bitches. I noticed that sportwaffen has used stuka a lot and i have seen a lot of good progeny from him, in my opinion people are too quick to produce stud dogs from their own breedings, i think its better to select bitches from the litter and go with proven studs.
PLS I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE BREEDING DOGS MOST OF THIS IS MY COMMON SENSE AND OBSERVING PEOPLE'S BREEDINGS. I'd like opinions of more experienced people here.;-)


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> @kadi What percentage of the average mali litter would be good fo police work/top sport?


First it depends on what sport, and if you have handlers that are capable of taking a pup to that level. But I think a couple top sport, a bunch that can do sport or police, and a couple that won't make the grade for police/sport is about normal in a well bred Mali litter. Hows that for specific LOL



> People complain about GSDs and from what i've heard in a litter of 8 you'd probabbly have 1 or 2 police k9 prospects. And what do you think is responsible for the mali now IMO having such a high success rate in police work and top sport???


I think it's simply because the focus in Malinois breeding is work, and nothing else. In other breeds the focus is split between sport titles and a conformation rating. IMO many times once a person has put all the time, effort and money into getting a Schutzhund title and conformation rating, they figure that means the dog is breed worthy, and dang it they are going to breed it. Buyer's have a tendency to do the same, if it's got a SchIII, V whatever rating it must be a great dog and worth getting a pup from. And honestly, most other breeds are prettier than a Malinois LOL What else are you going to breed it for, other than work? :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Hi guys,
> Just thought i would ask something i had been thinking of for a while. We talk of how good the old studs were, if we still have the semen of these "Great dogs' we could breed them to our prsent bitches and maybe produce some better dogs, i'm talking of dogs like-
> 
> Troll v haus milinda
> ...


The SV only allows natural breedings, no AI, no frozen semen. Though some of these dogs were in Belgium they were all still registered under the SV system so therefore this is a moot point, yesterday and today.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> The SV only allows natural breedings, no AI, no frozen semen. Though some of these dogs were in Belgium they were all still registered under the SV system so therefore this is a moot point, yesterday and today.


So if someone in the US does an AI, and AKC registers the litter. Can pups from that litter get FCI/SV registration at a later date, if they were sent to Germany? Since there is nothing on the AKC papers that indicates how the breeding happened, short of the stud dog being 30 years old (ie frozen semen from 15-20 years ago) would the SV even know?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> So if someone in the US does an AI, and AKC registers the litter. Can pups from that litter get FCI/SV registration at a later date, if they were sent to Germany? Since there is nothing on the AKC papers that indicates how the breeding happened, short of the stud dog being 30 years old (ie frozen semen from 15-20 years ago) would the SV even know?


http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/individual_registration.htm


B. Individual German Shepherd Dog previously registered through AKC, CKC or other recognized foreign registry:

International FCI rules prevent the issuance of any new registration document for dogs seeking individual registration.
The registration documents from the original registering organization (such as AKC, CKC, etc.) will be stamped by the SV Breed Registry Office, indicating dual USA/SV registration.
--------------------------------------------------
It has been my experience the SV does scrutinize the registrations that they stamp. For example, initially they rejected my current dog because the imported mother's SV registration showed only the wife of my breeder to be the registered owner, but the AKC registration showed both of them as the owner of the dog. Therefore, the SV would not approve until both registrations of the bitch showed the same ownership.

It's my understanding most breeders in Europe either agree with the practice of live breedings only, or go along with it because they are members of SV and do not ship semen. I'm pretty sure they would not approve the registration of a dog who's father has been dead too long to sire the litter, but I guess it could slip by. Obviously I am only speaking of GSDs.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Also, obviously AKC has no issue with dual registations, I have had dogs with duel registrations as I'm sure just about everybody here has, but apparently it does not work both ways.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> It's my understanding most breeders in Europe either agree with the practice of live breedings only, or go along with it because they are members of SV and do not ship semen. I'm pretty sure they would not approve the registration of a dog who's father has been dead too long to sire the litter, but I guess it could slip by. Obviously I am only speaking of GSDs.


I'd be curious what the SV's rationale is behind this. In what way is preventing AI or the use of frozen semen helping the breed? 

I can see wanting to be sure both the male and female are capable of natural breeding, I don't do AI on a maiden bitch for that reason. But once he or she has done a breeding naturally, I don't see any harm in AI and do see potential benefits. Such as not having to ship a bitch half way around the world for breeding. Or being able to use semen from a dog who has died. 

I realize you may not have the information on the SV's rationale, just wondering if anyone knows?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'd be curious what the SV's rationale is behind this. In what way is preventing AI or the use of frozen semen helping the breed?
> 
> I can see wanting to be sure both the male and female are capable of natural breeding, I don't do AI on a maiden bitch for that reason. But once he or she has done a breeding naturally, I don't see any harm in AI and do see potential benefits. Such as not having to ship a bitch half way around the world for breeding. Or being able to use semen from a dog who has died.
> 
> I realize you may not have the information on the SV's rationale, just wondering if anyone knows?


You're right, I have not the foggiest idea as to why. I'm hoping Sue DiCero will chime in here, she knows all about this stuff. I'm going to send her a PM and ask her to pontificate for us on this thread.


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## Danny Craig (Dec 19, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'd be curious what the SV's rationale is behind this. In what way is preventing AI or the use of frozen semen helping the breed?
> 
> I can see wanting to be sure both the male and female are capable of natural breeding, I don't do AI on a maiden bitch for that reason. But once he or she has done a breeding naturally, I don't see any harm in AI and do see potential benefits. Such as not having to ship a bitch half way around the world for breeding. Or being able to use semen from a dog who has died.
> 
> I realize you may not have the information on the SV's rationale, just wondering if anyone knows?


It's not just the SV. I know the DMC does not allow AI. So it may be that all German registries that do not allow AI. The only reason I can see that they have prohibited this practice is to ensure that dogs do not lose the ability to conceive naturally. I agree with you that there are lots of benefits to AI however.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> You're right, I have not the foggiest idea as to why. I'm hoping Sue DiCero will chime in here, she knows all about this stuff. I'm going to send her a PM and ask her to pontificate for us on this thread.


I meant Gillian.( Sorry, senior blonde moment head desk head desk head desk) I'm sure Sue also knows, but Gillian participates on this forum more regularly and will probably check her PMs quicker than Sue.

Anyway I sent Gillian a PM.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Quick question? I have an AKC/SV bitch. Do I have to breed her to a AKC/SV male in order to have the pups SV?


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## Bob McKown (Apr 13, 2010)

Well I hope this breeding i,m doing this spring will bring back some old gentic qualities. It,s not seman from the old studs but I hope they will show up in the whelping box.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=509123&modir=588801


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

There's no interest in old studs. I can walk the shopping malls for hours and get absolutely no interest. :-# 8-[


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> There's no interest in old studs. I can walk the shopping malls for hours and get absolutely no interest. :-# 8-[


They said old STUDS...Bob...not old men....there is a difference..I seen it on TV.... on the extenze commercials or something like that...and the malls are not a good market, even an old stud, is just a creepy old guy at a mall....geeezzzz....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I meant Gillian.( Sorry, senior blonde moment head desk head desk head desk) I'm sure Sue also knows, but Gillian participates on this forum more regularly and will probably check her PMs quicker than Sue.
> 
> Anyway I sent Gillian a PM.


Just quickly before I check out the SV site:

Die künstliche Besamung ist gemäß §11 der Zuchtordnung im Schäferhundverein RSV2000 erlaubt. 

The artificial insemination is, according to Article 11 of the Breeding Rules, permissible in RSV2000.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> They said old STUDS...Bob...not old men....there is a difference..I seen it on TV.... on the extenze commercials or something like that...and the malls are not a good market, even an old stud, is just a creepy old guy at a mall....geeezzzz....


Yea but...but...outside the mall you have to start off each conversation with "Are you a cop"? :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Dear old SV,

It's anchored in their breeding rules that artificial insemination is forbidden. Pups conceived in this manner will not be registered in the "Zuchtbuch".


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks Gillian...Yet another reason I am glad to be a member of and therefore supporting RSV2000.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> They said old STUDS...Bob...not old men....there is a difference..I seen it on TV.... on the extenze commercials or something like that...and the malls are not a good market, even an old stud, is just a creepy old guy at a mall....geeezzzz....


But wasn't the guy in the extenze commercials named Bob?

:-o


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'd be curious what the SV's rationale is behind this. In what way is preventing AI or the use of frozen semen helping the breed?


Good question, I'd like to see the rationale as well. Same thing for thoroughbreds registered through the Jockey Club have to be registered with live cover only. :-k


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

[FONT=&quot]Thanks kadi,
I think people should be a bit less converned about what the SV prefers. Germany has good dogs but they are not indispensible, czech guys have proven that.
@Kadi-just a couple for police work!!!??-same with my GSDS\\/LOL.[/FONT]


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Just seen that the RSV 2000 have more articles in English, the one on aritificial semination and there are more on training:

http://www.rsv2000.de/en/74/Sperm+Acquisition+and+Artificial+Insemination.html


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> [FONT=&quot]@Kadi-just a couple for police work!!!??-same with my GSDS[/FONT]


Actually I said "But I think a couple top sport, a bunch that can do sport or police, and a couple that won't make the grade for police/sport is about normal in a well bred Mali litter."

I probably should have clarified that IMO the ones that can do top sport can also usually do police work, but the ones that can do police work can't always do top sport.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Good question, I'd like to see the rationale as well. Same thing for thoroughbreds registered through the Jockey Club have to be registered with live cover only. :-k


As far as I can see, there isn't one!!!

The Austrian German Shepherd Club and the Swiss forbid it too but the Swiss gives the reason as unecessary due to "high population".

The Malinois Club in Germany allow it with prior permission from the Breed Club and proof that the stud dog has fathered litters naturally.


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