# Private or Commercial Breeders



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Where would you buy your next dog or puppy from, a private kennel or a commercial breeder, and why?


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

I don't buy dogs from "commercial breeders". It just sounds too much like a fancy name for a puppy mill for my taste. Private breeders are also capable of such conduct, but usually not too often. And if they plan on keeping one or two from the litter, you're better able to tell if they're breeding for cash or to improve on their own stock.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

From Craigslist, if we had a Craigslist !


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Depends on what your calling a commercial breeder. Do you mean someone who makes a living breeding dogs? Is a private breeder a hobbyist with a few dogs? Or?


----------



## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Would you consider Kreative be commercial? Who would be considered a private kennel? Backyard breeder?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I would buy my next dog from the same guy i bought my current dog from only i wouldn't waste time and money with selection etc. i would just pay whatever he was asking for it and tell to freight one up.

BTW whatever breeder isn't a commercial one??

There a breeders that breed dogs to give away for free??

Have their contact details, they got good dogs?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Depends on what your defintion of a commercial breeder is.. Cause we breed more than 20 pups per year we're per law considered as commercial, so we have a little company cause law and tax say we must do that. So from the 350 euro (about$ 500) per puppy, i pay 19% taxes + expensives of the litter, so much profit isnt there..from the profit we got, i buy dogfood.


@ peter: i think we breed good dogs ;-)


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

from Logan Haus- he has quallity dogs, with the temperment I am looking for, is established and credible -not sure if he is considered Private, as it is just him, or is he commercial, as he is getting well known ?


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I would buy my next dog from the same guy i bought my current dog from only i wouldn't waste time and money with selection etc. i would just pay whatever he was asking for it and tell to freight one up.
> 
> BTW whatever breeder isn't a commercial one??
> 
> ...


Mike Suttle of Logan Haus frequently gives dogs away that he does not feel are good working prospects. These dogs generally lack drive or the nerves for the work. However, I have heard of dogs he has given away as ending up as PSD's or doing well in sport. But, he has very high standards the dogs he sells must meet. He's got some of the top KNPV producers in his kennel. 

Keep an eye on the classifieds section, he'll post them up there when available.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Selena, u sayin yr gonna send me one of yrs??

I'm sayin hell yeah, which litter?


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

As I sit and am honest with myself about my intentions and the quality of dogs I need to acquire for my projects honestly - whoever has the better quality dog/pup available when I need it. My latest pup is from what most would consider a commercial kennel - he's a great quality dog - but you do see some developmental differences between him and dogs that are raised on a smaller scale. Nothing so far that would be a deal breaker from the same place but we'll see how the world develops between now and 2-3 years old. 

That said I tried going with smaller breeders before going to the commercial breeders. Most were handing me what anyone with five years within my breed would consider crap type, crap temperament and telling me I should be happy I'm getting offered that because all their puppies are just swell and poop rainbows. Where with the commercial breeder I turned down the first three puppies offered to me after clearly spelling out why I turned them down - I was then offered a pup they had planned on keeping and really - pedigree-type-temperament he was the puppy I wanted and needed. We'll see what the adult dog looks like but I think he'll be a dandy little dog.


----------



## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

I personally dont mind who its from as long as its a nice pup/dog. I also don't have any qualms with an individual who makes a profit from selling dogs/pups. If he or she knows what they are doing, making sure of quality, and honest people, then i don't care how much they make from selling them. Hobby breeder, primary source of income, won't matter. As long as its quality animals. No different than the commercial livestock breeders. Some good, some not. Some profit, some hobby. Profit is profit, weather its a dog, cat, car, cow or whatever.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And I guess that is the real point, getting a quality animal. 

Yes after taxes and other expenses, you really end up with little profit. When a pencil is put to feeding and feed costs, kennels, kennel clean up time, vet bills, time training or maintaining a dog; the end result seems small.

I still want the most bang and quality for my money. And when things aren't right, a breeder or vendor who stands BEHIND what they provide for the reason of the purchase!


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

There's commercial breeders, private breeders and backyard breeders. Probably can find good puppies in each, however, do they do their homework. Some breeders will breed dogs with known allergies, hip problems etc just to get the money, other because they have two dogs and why not? while some have knowlege of the dog's parents, grandparents, siblings, health issues ob both sides and what they have done in the ring and in the field. I also like a breeder that knows his litter and can tell me what the pup is like to this point. There are always stories that the shyest pup is now a movie star, the smalles is now the biggest and the clumsy one has an agility MACH but the more information you have the better off you should be. I will take a smaller breeder that has a good reputation in his area.


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Isaiah Chestnut said:


> I personally dont mind who its from as long as its a nice pup/dog. I also don't have any qualms with an individual who makes a profit from selling dogs/pups. If he or she knows what they are doing, making sure of quality, and honest people, then i don't care how much they make from selling them. Hobby breeder, primary source of income, won't matter. As long as its quality animals. No different than the commercial livestock breeders. Some good, some not. Some profit, some hobby. Profit is profit, weather its a dog, cat, car, cow or whatever.


Same here. I don't care if it's commercial or not, whether the breeder makes a living breeding or if it's a hobby. To me, the most important aspect is the quality of studs & brood bitches, the breeder's character, and the quality of pups produced. Price, within reason, is not much of a concern. I will happily pay a premium for a pup from the right breeder. 

We have been blessed in that the two working kennels we have purchased from have been fantastic. Each has taken an active interest in the development of the pup and been readily available to answer any questions. To me, that is invaluable in a breeder and a product of doing one's homework when selecting which breeder you will use.


----------



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Can we define commercial vs private? I consider who I got my dog from private, but he does have a lot of litters and makes his living with dogs. Is that really commercial? Is private a hobbyist-with 1-2 dogs? How many litters separated commercial from private? Is it number of dams/sires that they use/have? Is it how they house their dogs?


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I would think "commercial" breeder would be one that has many bitches and many stud dogs that are being constantly bred. By many I would say over 5 bitches. And these dogs would be housed in kennles outdoors. I know many private breeders who have 2-3 bitches they breed for a litter every year or every other year while they show the puppies they have picked from a litter. Those pups are then sold to a show home or pet home and they show the newest pick of the litter to further their breeding program. The private breeders usually house both indoors and out depending on their set up, climate, etc. 
Backyard breeders usually are those people who have a male and get a female and produce a litter strictly for the money not to better the breed and rarely know the breed and what they should be breeding to achieve. In rescue unfortunately we see too many of this type. Puppy mills are another whole subject and in my opinion should all be shut down. They dont do anyone a service except the pet stores that sell the pups for high prices for a poor quality. The treatment of the animals are usually too awful to describe and I speak from experience that I wish I could wipe from my memory.


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Vicki, that BYB description also applies to puppy mills.


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

BYB arent the best but usually treat the puppies and dogs a bit better. I have one little female aussie that came from a puppy mill and it has been two years of showing her what it is to be on grass, learn what a toy is, that people can be kind and food and water is available every day. Noises scare her, walking on a leash is more like crawling but we have made huge steps forward. I dont have to carry her in and out of the house because she is too afraid to move, she plays with a toy now and my other dogs, she doesnt pee everytime something scares her and I never thought I would rejoice over this but she can bark when there is a knock on the door. We thought she didnt have a voice box because she never made a sound-not even a whimper. If you have never been to a puppy mill, if you have never been around a dog from a puppy mill count your blessings. In Missouri puppy mills are many and it is an embarassment to me as a Misslourian. There have been many bills to stop them and we have made some progress but so much more needs to be done. I can at least feel better giving one dog a chance at life. Oddly enough Nikki has given me more than I have given her.


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

I disagree with most of the definitions supplied so far. Type of breeder doesn't always mean quality. There are some crappy commercial kennels, hobby breeders, and nearly all bybs and puppymills produce crap but... I've been shocked before at a couple of nice dogs that came from BYBs who happened to select well. Go fig. 

Commercial breeder - usually lots of dogs, sometimes a staff, does not need to send bitches out to outside studs because they usually have enough variety in house to match bitches to ideal studs. When I think commercial GSD I think something like Kraftwerk 

Hobby breeder - usually a few dogs, no staff, breeds usually to select outside dogs which match their bitch or bitches well. When I think hobby breeder GSD I think of something like Little River

BYB - usually just a couple to a few dogs they either happen to own or happen to be the same breed or "close enough." No real selection of studs used other than both AKC flugelhundes, or producing doodles. Check your local newspaper and puppyfinder for examples of these

Puppymill - lots of dogs bred for profit with the idea of whatever is churning money on the market is what we're going to produce as fast as we can produce it. Puppyfinder anyone?


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I suppose to many people I would be considered a "commercial breeder". I own several breeding females, some live in our kennel, some are living in foster homes nearby, and I also have several stud dogs here from a few different bloodlines. We normally have several litters each year although this year we have been pretty busy trying to prepare green dogs for larger contracts and we also started doing handlers courses here so we have only had a couple litters this year. We breed combinations with the goal being to produce the type of dog that we need for our contracts in the future. We do every breeding with the intention of keeping one or two, sometimes 4 or 5 puppies back from each litter here for ourselves ( depending on the room we have available). We work every puppy with the same attention to detail whether it will stay here or be sold at 8 weeks. In many cases we decide to keep a certain number of puppies from a litter and we sell the rest first and keep what is left, this way the customer who wants to pick his own puppy can do so, and I am confident enough in the breeding and the bloodlines, (and our ability to raise a working puppy correctly) to keep any puppy from a litter here and work it for future sale the following year.
So even though I may be a "commercial breeder" I breed every litter for ourselves, so I have a very vested interested in only breeding the highest quality dogs that have passed very rigourous health testing and come from the best proven bloodlines to increase the odds of us getting the type of dog we need for our Customs and Border Patrol contracts, as well as our SF contracts. As a "commercial breeder" I also offer a heath and a working guarantee. Many breeders dont offer a working guarantee for puppies, but I feel that is important if your selling working dogs of any age.
I myself would buy from many "hobby breeders" as long as the lines were what I liked and the puppies and parents looked like strong, healthy, stable, high drive working dogs. I would however make sure that any breeder you get a puppy from has a good working and health guarantee.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> I suppose to many people I would be considered a "commercial breeder". I own several breeding females, some live in our kennel, some are living in foster homes nearby, and I also have several stud dogs here from a few different bloodlines. We normally have several litters each year although this year we have been pretty busy trying to prepare green dogs for larger contracts and we also started doing handlers courses here so we have only had a couple litters this year. We breed combinations with the goal being to produce the type of dog that we need for our contracts in the future. We do every breeding with the intention of keeping one or two, sometimes 4 or 5 puppies back from each litter here for ourselves ( depending on the room we have available). We work every puppy with the same attention to detail whether it will stay here or be sold at 8 weeks. In many cases we decide to keep a certain number of puppies from a litter and we sell the rest first and keep what is left, this way the customer who wants to pick his own puppy can do so, and I am confident enough in the breeding and the bloodlines, (and our ability to raise a working puppy correctly) to keep any puppy from a litter here and work it for future sale the following year.
> So even though I may be a "commercial breeder" I breed every litter for ourselves, so I have a very vested interested in only breeding the highest quality dogs that have passed very rigourous health testing and come from the best proven bloodlines to increase the odds of us getting the type of dog we need for our Customs and Border Patrol contracts, as well as our SF contracts. As a "commercial breeder" I also offer a heath and a working guarantee. Many breeders dont offer a working guarantee for puppies, but I feel that is important if your selling working dogs of any age.
> I myself would buy from many "hobby breeders" as long as the lines were what I liked and the puppies and parents looked like strong, healthy, stable, high drive working dogs. I would however make sure that any breeder you get a puppy from has a good working and health guarantee.


The dog I got from you is top shelf. The perfect dog for me. He is still young and there is still lots of goodness to come with him. I wouldn't put him in the extreme category. But I have 0 use for an extreme dog as my personal companion. I am having thoughts of breeding him down the road in hopes of reproducing him. He is truly a really nice example of purpose and selective breeding. I feel very fortunate to own a dog of this caliber. I am not real big on bragging (had to many dogs make a liar out of me lol) but in this case I don't have a problem doing it lol. Just for the record he has been worked by several LEO's I train with and given high regard by all. His biggest weakness is his trainer/handler but he is solid and strong enough to compensate for that. 
Mike I am pissed though!! He won't show his teeth at folks rolling up in the yard ](*,)


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Melissa your definitions are the same as everyone else just used different words. I think any of the type of breeders discussed can produce a good dog some by accident while others know what they are breeding for and can do it consistently.


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

vicki dickey said:


> Melissa your definitions are the same as everyone else just used different words. I think any of the type of breeders discussed can produce a good dog some by accident while others know what they are breeding for and can do it consistently.


I'll disagree with you because different words have different meanings. :wink: Anyway, to me sometimes examining breeding patterns, pedigrees, philosphies, etc grants a clue into what might be motivating behaviors within breeders. For instance I have seen quite a bit of "breeding pedigrees" among hobby breeders, especially the rosette chasing crowd who forget to look at the dogs they have in front of them instead of what is written on paper. Usually this doesn't pan out the way people intend but god help ya try to tell them that because the pedigree says what should be produced right? 

:lol:


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> ... As a "commercial breeder" I also offer a heath and a working guarantee. Many breeders dont offer a working guarantee for puppies, but I feel that is important if your selling working dogs of any age...


 Mike, I do the same with Border Collies and think the policy is a good one. Folks who want a worker and end up with a something far less, never got their monies worth. 

HOWEVER, how do or would you handle a dog that wasn't trained properly or the owner in some way screwed it up and then comes back with the, "It's genetically bad" issue? Or the owner who over feeds and exercises the puppy and now it has "bad hips" which would NOT be genetic?


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

@mike are you selling/sold arco and uzi or studding them out


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Mike I am pissed though!! He won't show his teeth at folks rolling up in the yard







"

_Brian.... is it because your dog is confident and not a nerve bag...and doesn't need to show his teeth and carry on and try to scare away the big bad threats? -or is he confident and he will handle business when it is time to get down to business? I have a couple of dogs from Mike- also very nice, very confident, super smart and doing awesome in their bite/protection stuff ....if you really want them to show their teeth and or carry on- you can teach it or have someone show you how to teach that....

not to get off track with the OP's question- doesn't matter if Logan Haus is termed private or commercial, that is where I will get my dogs and who I will recommend ? Quality speaks for itself


----------



## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Mike I am pissed though!! He won't show his teeth at folks rolling up in the yard ](*,)


Worthless no teeth showing dogs. I'll do you and the working dog world a favor and take him off your hands...your welcome.


----------



## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> interested in only breeding the highest quality dogs that have passed very rigourous health testing.


which breeding dogs are health tested? only Ivo,Arko have been tested :wink:


----------

