# The simple difference to me



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

The simplest explanation to me between a PSD and sport dog training is this..During training both groups try their best to keep the dogs drives in check so they can learn an exercise.
When the sport dog handler goes on the trial field he wants to make sure his dog is in the right mental state to achieve the best score. So lets say the dog will be a 8 in a scale thru 10.
When I as PSD handler hit the street I want my dog at an 11 or 12 on that same scale. Whether to keep him searching through a extended track, search or to carry him through something that he has never experieced before. That same level will also help him stay on the fight even when he is hurting worse than he ever has in training or certification. Just my simple opinion


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You must have trained with some **** then. My dog is already at 10 in the car. Do you not read Scheibers posts ? Buko is 7 and did two ring threes in a day. He was ready to do 6 more. As a bonus, it was cold, which sends his drives well over what most dogs can even accomplish. I train for this. Doesn't mean it works, but he is way over ten in training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: That same level will also help him stay on the fight even when he is hurting worse than he ever has in training or certification. Just my simple opinion

So sport dogs will run off then ? Think about this. You work for a police dept in the US. What are the odds that you are not getting the bottom of the barrel choice wise in dogs ??

It is not brain surgery. Do you know LEO that can train a dog at a world class level ? Do you really know what it takes for a dog to be at that level ?


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

The difference is even more simple to me. It varies with the dog, training and handling. 

I've sold/known/trained/handled lots of PSDs that could have been sport dogs and vice versa. Lots of PSDs are far more than their handlers can control out on the street, lots are not enough for the situation. Again...same for "sport dogs". There are no golden dipped PSDs or sport dogs....there are plenty crappy of each. Someone serious and knowledgeable about what makes a truly strong, dependable dog will find and train that dog. It doesn't matter what venue he resides in. 

So, the difference between the sport and PSD? In most cases, realistically, ....whoever bought the dog first.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: That same level will also help him stay on the fight even when he is hurting worse than he ever has in training or certification. Just my simple opinion
> 
> So sport dogs will run off then ? Think about this. You work for a police dept in the US. What are the odds that you are not getting the bottom of the barrel choice wise in dogs ??
> 
> It is not brain surgery. Do you know LEO that can train a dog at a world class level ? Do you really know what it takes for a dog to be at that level ?


 

I do work for a dept in the US. I do train my dogs from pup to patrol. I can guarantee that my dogs are not from the bottom of the barrel. 

The words get run off are not found anywhere. The only thing I was trying to imply was the level and reasons for control are different. 

And guess what Jeff I do know U.S. k9 trainers that can train dogs at a world class level.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Kristina Senter said:


> The difference is even more simple to me. It varies with the dog, training and handling.
> 
> I've sold/known/trained/handled lots of PSDs that could have been sport dogs and vice versa. Lots of PSDs are far more than their handlers can control out on the street, lots are not enough for the situation. Again...same for "sport dogs". There are no golden dipped PSDs or sport dogs....there are plenty crappy of each. Someone serious and knowledgeable about what makes a truly strong, dependable dog will find and train that dog. It doesn't matter what venue he resides in.
> 
> So, the difference between the sport and PSD? In most cases, realistically, ....whoever bought the dog first.


You are right. I wasnt talking about the dogs only about the training.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You must have trained with some **** then. My dog is already at 10 in the car. Do you not read Scheibers posts ? Buko is 7 and did two ring threes in a day. He was ready to do 6 more. As a bonus, it was cold, which sends his drives well over what most dogs can even accomplish. I train for this. Doesn't mean it works, but he is way over ten in training.


 
Jeff I can only talk about what I have seen. Most people who train to teach a dog a new exercise or at a trial dont need the dog in bloodshot, foaming at the mouth overdrive. You want the dog at a level it can learn. The same on a trial field. You dont want the dog to really fight the decoy what you want is this:

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEQ9BW4b8Q&feature=player_detailpage

you get more than that on the trial field and you are ****ed.

But I need more than that and I give up a little control so the dog can reach a higher level drive

This isnt an attack on any one's training or dogs. I would take Buko or Gator (Kristina's) dog on patrol any day of the week.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

As a bonus said:


> Funny thing is Jeff, so do I. One of the reasons I will never be a national champ and neither will you.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> The simplest explanation to me between a PSD and sport dog training is this..During training both groups try their best to keep the dogs drives in check so they can learn an exercise.
> When the sport dog handler goes on the trial field he wants to make sure his dog is in the right mental state to achieve the best score. So lets say the dog will be a 8 in a scale thru 10.
> When I as PSD handler hit the street I want my dog at an 11 or 12 on that same scale. Whether to keep him searching through a extended track, search or to carry him through something that he has never experieced before. That same level will also help him stay on the fight even when he is hurting worse than he ever has in training or certification. Just my simple opinion


Will, I would whip your training butt to hell and back.

Never would I accept as in your words a 8.

The very moment my truck door opened on arrival at a trial anywhere in the world I was competing.

Game face/tude time.

I expected 100% out of my dog and myself.

Your assertion is to dilute a sport dogs drive to trial.

Sorry but u do not understand working dogs.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I guess I dont but I am sure you will let me know. Oh and Jerry I will be in Toronto in July. I will make sure to look you up and check out your ass whipping training.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

One is for fun, the other is for real. When people talk to me about abut their sport dog and say "He would be a great police dog" and most of the time I just laugh to myself. I don't believe most sport dogs are suitable for police work. I'm not saying they aren't great dogs, but most sport dogs aren't able to handle the various situations that would face them on the street. I'm talking about the extremes such as deploying a dog under a house to apprehend a bad guy. Its dark, unfimiliar, confined, with a strange "helper". Oh yeah, no equipment. There are some sport dogs that would be good PSD's. I train with a Schutzhund club. Our trainer started one of the largest and most succesful law enforcement K9 programs in the country. His dog and one other in the club I would gladly test for LE. I tell people that I take a titled dog and f*&k them all up for police work. I want my dog on the edge and I don't care about points. I need him to gladly go under that house, bite the suspect, and drag him out. Are there PSD's that shouldn't be on the street? Absolutely, what I want in a PSD may not be what some other agency wants. I was at an agitators seminar at Adlerhorst a few years ago. I worked a black GSD that was just weak and pitiful. I never thought anyone would buy him. The next day an agency from Oregon came down bought him because he was the kind of dog they wanted. I asked Dave Reaver about it and said something similar to "Everyone has a different idea of what makes a good police dog". 

I'm not bashing sport dogs at all. I've seen some great ones, but its apples and oranges when it comes to training.Some of the foundational theories and exercises may be the same but that is where the similarity ends.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

One is for fun, the other is for real. When people talk to me about abut their sport dog and say "He would be a great police dog" and most of the time I just laugh to myself. I don't believe most sport dogs are suitable for police work. I'm not saying they aren't great dogs, but most sport dogs aren't able to handle the various situations that would face them on the street. I'm talking about the extremes such as deploying a dog under a house to apprehend a bad guy. Its dark, unfimiliar, confined, with a strange "helper". Oh yeah, no equipment. There are some sport dogs that would be good PSD's. I train with a Schutzhund club. Our trainer started one of the largest and most succesful law enforcement K9 programs in the country. His dog and one other in the club I would gladly test for LE. I tell people that I take a titled dog and f*&k them all up for police work. I want my dog on the edge and I don't care about points. I need him to gladly go under that house, bite the suspect, and drag him out. Are there PSD's that shouldn't be on the street? Absolutely, what I want in a PSD may not be what some other agency wants. I was at an agitators seminar at Adlerhorst a few years ago. I worked a black GSD that was just weak and pitiful. I never thought anyone would buy him. The next day an agency from Oregon came down bought him because he was the kind of dog they wanted. I asked Dave Reaver about it and said something similar to "Everyone has a different idea of what makes a good police dog". 

I'm not bashing sport dogs at all. I've seen some great ones, but its apples and oranges when it comes to training.Some of the foundational theories and exercises may be the same but that is where the similarity ends.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Pete Stevens said:


> One is for fun, the other is for real.


 Completely agree. Yes dog training is dog training. Only the application is different. For example...the police generally don't train the object guard for the very reason of liability. What if the handler is knocked out or dead? Any other officer going to the downed handler's aid is going to get ate up. Precious time is wasted in gearing up to catch the dog (if you can get to the handler's car keys](*,)) to get the dog away so that the handler can get medical attention. Precious time wasted that may or may not save the handler.

There are some dogs that will naturally protect a downed handler, that's for sure. Most are sociable to other officers and could be called away and secured. There's no constant variables when on the street and the shit is flying.

I see this is another us vs them. My new years resolution (back in 2002) was to not get involved anymore. I feel myself slipping so I'm out.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

What I was trying to accomplish was that it is not very different. Never meant for it to be us VS them. A better understanding between the two and who knows maybe we could get a system for producing our own dogs for our use and export.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Completely agree. Yes dog training is dog training. Only the application is different. For example...the police generally don't train the object guard for the very reason of liability. What if the handler is knocked out or dead? Any other officer going to the downed handler's aid is going to get ate up. Precious time is wasted in gearing up to catch the dog (if you can get to the handler's car keys](*,)) to get the dog away so that the handler can get medical attention. Precious time wasted that may or may not save the handler.
> 
> There are some dogs that will naturally protect a downed handler, that's for sure. Most are sociable to other officers and could be called away and secured. There's no constant variables when on the street and the shit is flying.
> 
> I see this is another us vs them. My new years resolution (back in 2002) was to not get involved anymore. I feel myself slipping so I'm out.


I wonder how many Knpv PH I patrol dogs are on the streets of america...each one of those knows the Obj. Guard


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Yes, I know. How many handlers of those same dogs regularly train the object guard to maintain that exercise? How many handlers feel the need to train the OG over the many other areas that need to be dealt with first? If that exercise is completely omitted from the training program will the dog stay at that same level? Through the dog's experiences on the street and lack of OG training over it's career is it possible to get the dog safely away from a downed handler? Depends on the dog I think.

What is your take on the OG for patrol dogs?


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## steven mc couille (Aug 23, 2010)

i understand jeff your dog did 2 ring 3 in one day and your dog was able to do 6 more of course but i hope in your ring 3 triasl you were not doing 5 meters attacks like on you videos, because if this is the case my dog can do 20 ring 3 in one day.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Its not practical for what we do but it looks good for demo's. Fun to train just another thing for the tool box.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> Yes, I know. How many handlers of those same dogs regularly train the object guard to maintain that exercise? How many handlers feel the need to train the OG over the many other areas that need to be dealt with first? If that exercise is completely omitted from the training program will the dog stay at that same level? Through the dog's experiences on the street and lack of OG training over it's career is it possible to get the dog safely away from a downed handler? Depends on the dog I think.
> 
> What is your take on the OG for patrol dogs?


Although I agree that if the training isn't maintained, it will "slip", and I can agree that there is no real reason to maintain it for a patrol dog, it's not a skill they would normally use, I'm not so sure that object guard training would translate to guarding a downed handler in the first place. I think that would be more about the dogs personality, bond with the handler, etc. I don't know anyone who trains the object guard using a person as the "object", it's always some inanimate object, a box, duffel bag, basket, etc. And I've never had a problem with my dogs just randomly deciding to guard an object because of their training. I've had a few that would do it, but that was because they were possessive buttheads LOL they did it before they ever had object training.

As for the original post, I have to disagree. When teaching a new exercise I don't want the dog in 10 because I do want them thinking and learning. But when training, ie practicing something they have already at least learned the foundation for, I want them in whatever level of drive they are going to bring to the field when they trial. It doesn't make sense to always try to train at 8 if my dog is going to bring 10, 12, whatever to the trial field, he's got to learn to THINK and OBEY in trial field drive levels. If we never "go there" except in trial, we are going to fail before we even walk on the field.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Its not practical for what we do but it looks good for demo's. Fun to train just another thing for the tool box.


 You'll find it interesting to know that I trained the OG on one PSD for the mere fact it was fun, and it was more about control than anything else. Once I was finished I took the satisfaction in knowing I could do it, then stopped. That dog was extremely social and biddable so I wasn't worried about him. Also, the training wasn't a long drawn out affair that was uber intense. And yes, it does look good in demos.

Kadi, I'm not saying that the dog will just randomly guard things. My concern was transferring that intense guarding to the handler if things get chaotic and go bad. Otherwise I agree with you.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Kadi

I am sure you train at high levels. But to win at trials against the best.. your dog has to be on point. You know when you step on the field whether your dog is high in drive or overboard. High in drive you might win...your dog is over the top you lose. Now depending on the situation high in drive means I lose and over the top means I win.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> I guess I dont but I am sure you will let me know. Oh and Jerry I will be in Toronto in July. I will make sure to look you up and check out your ass whipping training.


your on, bringing the pooch. all the other cops do


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> your on, bringing the pooch. all the other cops do


Will "Cath" be there


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Kadi
> 
> I am sure you train at high levels. But to win at trials against the best.. your dog has to be on point. You know when you step on the field whether your dog is high in drive or overboard. High in drive you might win...your dog is over the top you lose. Now depending on the situation high in drive means I lose and over the top means I win.


would your police dog keep in fight with his jaw broken and canines and incisors snaped out of its mouth by the bad guy?

yes or no


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Will "Cath" be there


cath, lol, no showed


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> would your police dog keep in fight with his jaw broken and canines and incisors snaped out of its mouth by the bad guy?
> 
> yes or no


I cant answer that...I don't speculate


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> I cant answer that...I don't speculate


 
that be a no


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Oh Jerry..I have seen a good K9 take a bat to the face lose three teeth and continue on to the suspect.(with my own eyes). In training and at work my dog has taken a great deal of pressure and abuse , he has always continued on. However I cannot answer YES or NO unless it happens. Had you asked an open ended question I would have answered.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Funny thing is Jeff, so do I. One of the reasons I will never be a national champ and neither will you.

Yeah, I know. I am too lazy to be a National Champion. But at least Buko has fun. Not always the best time for me, but he is having a great time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: i understand jeff your dog did 2 ring 3 in one day and your dog was able to do 6 more of course but i hope in your ring 3 triasl you were not doing 5 meters attacks like on you videos, because if this is the case my dog can do 20 ring 3 in one day.

Show us a video. I love video. Do you do Mondio ? Time to sign up if not !


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> would your police dog keep in fight with his jaw broken and canines and incisors snaped out of its mouth by the bad guy?
> yes or no


 What a retarded statement. That's genetics, you cannot train a dog to fight through something like that
The willingnes to fight is there or it is not. This is exactly what Dick was talking about in the Ivo thread.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: A better understanding between the two and who knows maybe we could get a system for producing our own dogs for our use and export.

THis would have been done years ago. I remember when we used to train with cops all the time. Now it is double super secret laser training, and of course there is no way that we could ever understand the super secret application of cop dogs. 

I remember a couple of cops that wanted to learn and they dug in and worked until their dog was on fire and under control. I had a lot of respect for them, they put up with a lot of shit from us to make their dogs better.

What the super secret double laser trainers forget is that we are not stupid, and now we know you and we will work three times harder to get your dog where you need it to be because we want to see you come home every night safely.

Somewhere along the line the whole "real dog" bullshit ****ed that relationship up, and the sport people suddenly don't understand dog training. That is a generalization of course, but when I read about a handler releasing his dog in heavy brush and the dog gets choked to death it bothers me.

I am a big fan of don't listen to the cops get shot program.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I just posted this in another thread I think it fits here to


Mike Scheiber said:


> The trouble is most dont know the differance between this www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igqe-4iQR5g
> and shit. Some idiots think you can train a dog to be like this :lol: However you can train a dog to do this.  To bad most here don't know the difference.............





todd pavlus said:


> What a retarded statement. That's genetics, you cannot train a dog to fight through something like that
> The willingnes to fight is there or it is not. This is exactly what Dick was talking about in the Ivo thread.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

seems to me the difference is consequences for control

Sport critiques minor details, Patrol work doesn't. Hell there are psd's working right now that dont even out, they must take them off every grip.

now your sent detection is sometimes critiqued to that level
We just had one of our city PSD called in to "Testify" in court. The defense attorney claimed the officer must have signaled to the dog where the drugs were. So the same drugs were hidden in the courtroom and in front of the jury the dog and handler were called in. Handler said one word and the dog searched the whole room, walked thru the juror in the jury box, climbed on the judges desk then signaled at the file cabinet they were closed inside (mind you the drugs had also been out on the defense table, and judges desk, there must have been residual sent.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Oh Jerry..I have seen a good K9 take a bat to the face lose three teeth and continue on to the suspect.(with my own eyes). In training and at work my dog has taken a great deal of pressure and abuse , he has always continued on. However I cannot answer YES or NO unless it happens. Had you asked an open ended question I would have answered.


still a no, i asked about your dog.

bring him in july, promise i will not hurt him.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

As the expression goes "you break it you bought it"


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> The willingnes to fight is there or it is not.


This is what it is all about. And when it is there the dog really doesn't need to be in overdrive. Not for training and not for street work.
And the control should always be there, as well for training as for street work.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

But the fighting isnt all of it... you want the same desire in searching for narcotics, tracking and searching. You cannot demand the control in these areas also or you will diminish the desire.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> But the fighting isnt all of it... you want the same desire in searching for narcotics, tracking and searching. You cannot demand the control in these areas also or you will diminish the desire.


When he's searching there is no problem with encouraging. This has nothing to do with control. The dog knows that he's allowed to search and will be focused.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> would your police dog keep in fight with his jaw broken and canines and incisors snaped out of its mouth by the bad guy?
> 
> yes or no


 Is a broken leg severe enough for you? How about a K-bar to the face? Been there and done that with the broken canines as well. Thank god never had one break a jaw. Seen other dogs take an ass woopin and keep on going.

I guess Will could ask you the same question eh? Then again you probably have, that's why you asked.:wink:


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> As the expression goes "you break it you bought it"


You don't have the balls to compete with the real folks in sport.

My Axe Man, the day he finished his ring II and attained his ring III same trial. They busted his jaw in two places and took every cannine and incisor out of his head.

The dog refused to show his pain during the trial. He could fight and did so with outstanding emotional control.

In fact he went high score Ring II and Ring III defeating many Threes including a French Selectif Dog.

This poor beat up dog then went on and set multiple records that held for many years after.


YOUR FUNNY AND ALSO SCARED.

SCARED OF SPORT PEOPLE

I repeat, I will not hurt your dog. Never have and never will.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> My Axe Man, the day he finished his ring II and attained his ring III same trial. They busted his jaw in two places and took every cannine and incisor out of his head.


Got any video of it. Sounds like excellent decoy work


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> Got any video of it. Sounds like excellent decoy work


Good stuff.=D>


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I guess I will say that a good dog is a good dog is a good dog! Yes some may not be able to do sport or PSD, however I truly beleive if the dog is good he can do well in either discipline. Maybe not at the same time due to the type of training and/or different sports, however I beleive a good trainer with a good dog would do well in each. Dog selection and training are more of a factor than the dog itself. 

May agree or disagree, but I do think a good well rounded dog could be tailored and excelled in either


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Got any video of it. Sounds like excellent decoy work



For real. How does that happen?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> I guess I will say that a good dog is a good dog is a good dog! Yes some may not be able to do sport or PSD, however I truly beleive if the dog is good he can do well in either discipline. Maybe not at the same time due to the type of training and/or different sports, however I beleive a good trainer with a good dog would do well in each. Dog selection and training are more of a factor than the dog itself.
> 
> May agree or disagree, but I do think a good well rounded dog could be tailored and excelled in either


That should be a given and is in my world.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

War stories from the trial field, gotta love it


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> You don't have the balls to compete with the real folks in sport.
> 
> My Axe Man, the day he finished his ring II and attained his ring III same trial. They busted his jaw in two places and took every cannine and incisor out of his head.
> 
> ...


Ok now I have to ask :lol:

the dog broke his jaw in 2 places and lost every canine and incisor during the trail and still went on with the trial as you say....now from what I read in your post he did this yet went on to trial some more that day ? or am I reading it wrong ? am just wondering if im reading it right here  and in what part of the trial did he get this damage ?


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

howard knauf said:


> for real. How does that happen?


the curs tried but failed


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> You don't have the balls to compete with the real folks in sport.
> 
> My Axe Man, the day he finished his ring II and attained his ring III same trial. They busted his jaw in two places and took every cannine and incisor out of his head.
> 
> ...


Jerry

Just out of curiosity are you actually reading what I am writing? I am probably the biggest proponent of sport and police training together. I have never shied away from it. 

As Jody said "a good dog is a good dog" just have to train him for what you want and not have any false hopes of what you will achieve.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Jerry
> 
> Just out of curiosity are you actually reading what I am writing? I am probably the biggest proponent of sport and police training together. I have never shied away from it.
> 
> As Jody said "a good dog is a good dog" just have to train him for what you want and not have any false hopes of what you will achieve.


I think Jerry gets carried away and goes blind sometimes when he gets on here other threads and topics seem to have the same tunnel vision fever.
Maybe whisky :-s


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> the curs tried but failed


 No. How does the dog recieve that much damage from an experienced ring decoy?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Training day at my house this weekend not sure if it will be Saturday or Sunday. We'll have a couple sport dogs, a couple police dogs and maybe even a PP dog. We have different break areas for all the dogs so we don't have to see who can pee higher. All are welcome....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

What a surprise. A "my dick is bigger than yours' argument".

DFrost


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

But Dave forgets to tell you about the e-fence he has so during this pissing contest, it will be shocking for all involved. 

Some dogs are good police dogs, some are good sport dogs. Some could be good at both. I think the main reason we ormaybe just people in my area (The People's Republic of California) of LE don't train with the sport folks is the fear by some of being sued for something they were "taught" by the agency they trained with. My agencies trainer is a civilian, never worn badge in his life. But he is the best trainer I have had the pleasure to work with. The guy knows more about PSD's than anyone I know. The officer safety scenarios are done by the cops but our trainer does a great job with our dogs. 

I have learned a lot from the sport folks I train with when I do helper work for the sport of Schutzhund. I have used some of those techniques in training PSD's. Because the sport is so much more focused on details, I've been able to get more out of my PSD's when I apply some theories to our training.

Didn't someone once say "Can't we all just get along?"..I think it was in April of 1992.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Pete Stevens said:


> But Dave forgets to tell you about the e-fence he has so during this pissing contest, it will be shocking for all involved.
> 
> Some dogs are good police dogs, some are good sport dogs. Some could be good at both. I think the main reason we ormaybe just people in my area (The People's Republic of California) of LE don't train with the sport folks is the fear by some of being sued for something they were "taught" by the agency they trained with. My agencies trainer is a civilian, never worn badge in his life. But he is the best trainer I have had the pleasure to work with. The guy knows more about PSD's than anyone I know. The officer safety scenarios are done by the cops but our trainer does a great job with our dogs.
> 
> ...


Theres a SV Schutzhund Judge up in Canada who happens to have been a PSD handler and instructor who when he teaches and lectured tells the handlers to go out and watch, do helper work or get a dog and participate in Schutzhund that it would make them better PSD trainers and handlers.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Pete Stevens said:


> But Dave forgets to tell you about the e-fence he has so during this pissing contest, it will be shocking for all involved.
> 
> Some dogs are good police dogs, some are good sport dogs. Some could be good at both. I think the main reason we ormaybe just people in my area (The People's Republic of California) of LE don't train with the sport folks is the fear by some of being sued for something they were "taught" by the agency they trained with. My agencies trainer is a civilian, never worn badge in his life. But he is the best trainer I have had the pleasure to work with. The guy knows more about PSD's than anyone I know. The officer safety scenarios are done by the cops but our trainer does a great job with our dogs.
> 
> ...



Pete. Are you driving or flying out?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Theres a SV Schutzhund Judge up in Canada who happens to have been a PSD handler and instructor who when he teaches and lectured tells the handlers to go out and watch, do helper work or get a dog and participate in Schutzhund that it would make them better PSD trainers and handlers.


Doug Deacon, I presume. 

On another note I took my wife's cat to the vet about 2 years ago. There was a guy in the office who had a GSD. I looked at the dog, and commented "Hey, a working line Shepherd" He asked "how did you know?" I explained that I train at a GS Schutzhund Club. That started a conversation. He made some comment about being in Law Enforcement for a long time, Sch not being real, etc. etc. I laughed at him and invited him out to the club. The guy has been there ever since. Turns out he used to be the chief of police in the town where I grew up and raised hell. We have a lot of fun talking about the old days. You could say we were on opposite sides of the fence in the old days. People laugh their asses off listening to our stories.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> No. How does the dog recieve that much damage from an experienced ring decoy?


corrupt, almost every ring3 bite exercise was ordered redone by the judge due to cheating by all three decoys

axel was brutalised in the blind

it was not an accident.

axel was a very hard biter, he hurt most decoys and these curs decided amongst themselves to hurt axel.

I have about 50 trophies including three championship awards. One Champion and two vice champion from two dogs.. All of them are stored away in my attic.

The one and only trophy visable in my home is Axels from May 26, 1994. 

The day he beat the cheater curs.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Ok now I have to ask :lol:
> 
> the dog broke his jaw in 2 places and lost every canine and incisor during the trail and still went on with the trial as you say....now from what I read in your post he did this yet went on to trial some more that day ? or am I reading it wrong ? am just wondering if im reading it right here  and in what part of the trial did he get this damage ?



^^^^^^^^^^


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^


It happened in Ring III. My only hint of any unusual action by my dog was the first escape, A minor hesitation to re engage. He took the pain and continued to fight.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> It happened in Ring III. My only hint of any unusual action by my dog was the first escape, A minor hesitation to re engage. He took the pain and continued to fight.


With all that damage, intentionally done by a decoy, I would imagine the decoy was reprimanded by the judging body of the sport. Is he still active as a decoy. I just can't imagine a trial where all that damage, all canine and incisors knocked out and a broken jaw, could happen and it not noticed at some point. I admit I don't know that much about FR, but geez louise, you'd think someone would notice all that damage. I guess I really have been working with shitters all these years. 

DFrost


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

David Frost said:


> With all that damage, intentionally done by a decoy, I would imagine the decoy was reprimanded by the judging body of the sport. Is he still active as a decoy. I just can't imagine a trial where all that damage, all canine and incisors knocked out and a broken jaw, could happen and it not noticed at some point. I admit I don't know that much about FR, but geez louise, you'd think someone would notice all that damage. I guess I really have been working with shitters all these years.
> 
> DFrost


David, Nara has a very dark cloud that hangs over itself.

Refused to investgate, hidden from the public

The travisty was well witnessed including a few who post here.

Perhaps they would explain why they assisted in the coverup. But I doubt that will happen


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> corrupt, almost every ring3 bite exercise was ordered redone by the judge due to cheating by all three decoys
> 
> axel was brutalised in the blind
> 
> ...



And they didn't get sent to the ER? You got some self control pal.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> And they didn't get sent to the ER? You got some self control pal.


Exactly my thought. I can only imagine what would happen to someone that intentionally injured a dog that badly, during a training or trial exercise. 

dFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Exactly my thought. I can only imagine what would happen to someone that intentionally injured a dog that badly, during a training or trial exercise.
> 
> dFrost


 I have seen near brawls. Only thing stopping them was other people quickly nipping it in the bud.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> corrupt, almost every ring3 bite exercise was ordered redone by the judge due to cheating by all three decoys
> 
> axel was brutalised in the blind
> 
> ...


There must be video of it somewhere, and you must have seen it. The handler usually cannot see what is happening in the blind. At least tell us who the decoy was. If this happened to my dog, I would have no problem telling everyone who did it.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jerry

Got any video of your dogs?

Here's your shot to be relevent again...run with it my friend. Dont be scared.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

What I did do after the fact of Axel being hurt. I removed him from the sport genepool. I only bred him from that point for police and military. Which again Axel shined to the top of the working pile.

Axel had outstanding parents.

His dad was Kolos des Deux Pottois

His Mother was very famous herself. In fact in many Malinois circles here in North America.

Lison des Deux Pottois

Is concidered as the founding Bitch of the Malinois being introduced to mainstream Working Malinois in North America.

Today my kennel has many Axels still here.

One of Axels sons that I own is named Dewey. He has dews on the rear. This dog is an honest 95 lbs of working danger.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> It happened in Ring III. My only hint of any unusual action by my dog was the first escape, A minor hesitation to re engage. He took the pain and continued to fight.



I just cant imagine this happening to one of my dogs, you would have to surgicaly remove me from the decoy whilst I was spooning out the ratbastards heart and feeding it to my dog. 

spose that was the end of your trailday for you huh


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> It happened in Ring III. My only hint of any unusual action by my dog was the first escape, A minor hesitation to re engage. He took the pain and continued to fight.


Come on Jerry, this story changes every time I read it. Used to be Axel was injured in FRII, by only 1 decoy, but he was such an animal that he still finished the FRII, won, and then competed in FRIII and won that also. Screaming in pain on the bite the entire time. One time I asked how you as a handler didn't notice the dog screaming in the II, and bumped him up to III, you said he was always vocal on the bite because he loved the fight so much.

Now he wasn't injured until FRIII, and there was no noise, just a hesitation to re-engage and all 3 decoys were in on it?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Sometimes I wonder if Jerry is Cath?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Sometimes I wonder if Jerry is Cath?


ok now I have to ask you...who is cath ?


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Come on Jerry, this story changes every time I read it. Used to be Axel was injured in FRII, by only 1 decoy, but he was such an animal that he still finished the FRII, won, and then competed in FRIII and won that also. Screaming in pain on the bite the entire time. One time I asked how you as a handler didn't notice the dog screaming in the II, and bumped him up to III, you said he was always vocal on the bite because he loved the fight so much.
> 
> Now he wasn't injured until FRIII, and there was no noise, just a hesitation to re-engage and all 3 decoys were in on it?


u were there, ms judge


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> ok now I have to ask you...who is cath ?


 
Crazy chick from different forums that always had something to say-she was disciple of Baden k9. Liked to go at it with Jerry and everyone else.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

OK, now you have me really curious, I never realized this happened at a trial I had attended.

Who was the judge, hosting club, etc? I have lots of old trial videos, might even have video from this one. I'll have to go dig through my old VHS tapes.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Sometimes I wonder if Jerry is Cath?


Now that is very funny

Sorry but Cath is 100% Yankee

Steve Leigh outed her long ago.

For u coppers who read here. She was/is attached to Baden.

The dude who with a bunch of friends gang beat up a old retired Police Office in a bowling alley in Niagara Falls Canada.

A few cops paid a large price for dishing out payback.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

That be a no video?


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Jerry you are so full of Bull shit. All I ever hear come out of your mouth is bull shit spew. Your dog got hurt almost died even. He was so tough he kept biting. Like Kadi said your story changes every hour. This place is corrupt this guy did you wrong. You are such a Whooraa trainer, handler and decoy. Quit telling everyone how good your old dog was and how bad everyone else is. People ask you a question and all we get is Cudahy rhetoric. It gets old after a while. Who was the judge who was the decoys. And lets see some of your new dogs that must be so fantastic or you wouldn't even own them. How can any animal even close his mouth if it had a broken Jaw. Why didn't you pull the dog out if he lost all his teeth? Sounds like a genetic flaw to me that all a dogs teeth fell out. You must be the worst handler in the world to let your dog keep going after a beating like that. How do you know the dog was brutalized in the blind? If you saw it why didn't you stop it. If you didn't see it then how do you know? Constant BS, and Whining.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I think a good dog is a good dog. If it is with a good training team it will become good at what ever discipline. It take a lot of similar qualities to make a sport dog or a police dog (i think). It is based on how they are trained.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> corrupt, almost every ring3 bite exercise was ordered redone by the judge due to cheating by all three decoys
> 
> axel was brutalised in the blind
> 
> ...


I'm really confused here. What possible reason in the world would decoys have for purposely doing this to any dog? Decoys have more appreciation for a good hard biting dog than pretty much anyone else. If you are saying they beat up your dog because they didn't like YOU, that still doesn't make any sense, they have too much respect for a good dog to take out their frustrations with the owner on the dog, now if you told me they didn't like you, got together and beat the crap out of you in the parking lot, that might hold a little water.............but not much more than a thimble full. This just doesn't make any sense to me, sorry.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

That's a little naive, Susan. It happens. Even seen it happen among LEOs for christ sake! Jealousy makes people do stupid shit. I don't know if this really happened to Jerry's dog but it is something I believe can happen. Worst part is, how do you prove it was intentional and not a mistake? There's no way so the asswipes get away with it. Sad really.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> That's a little naive, Susan. It happens. Even seen it happen among LEOs for christ sake! Jealousy makes people do stupid shit. I don't know if this really happened to Jerry's dog but it is something I believe can happen. Worst part is, how do you prove it was intentional and not a mistake? There's no way so the asswipes get away with it. Sad really.


 
It cost just over $10,000 to repair the damage.

The first emerg vet hospital in So California could not handle the job. They wanted to send Axel to the teaching university to fix him up.

I simply pack up and narced him to the nines and return home in an emergency flight back to Canada.

My own vet could not handle the repair job.

I had to import a canine dental specialost from the University of British Columbia.

I thought that all the trauma would have ended his days in sport.

Axel had more heart than I ever emagined.

No Canines or incisors top and bottom.

He went on to set a high score record in Ring III. This record held for many many years. In fact was not beaten untill after his death. Richie was the person who took over the high score record.

Along with Two North American Ring III Vice Champion. 

Damn I miss Axel so much, but am very lucky to have his get all over my place.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> That's a little naive, Susan. It happens. Even seen it happen among LEOs for christ sake! Jealousy makes people do stupid shit. I don't know if this really happened to Jerry's dog but it is something I believe can happen. Worst part is, how do you prove it was intentional and not a mistake? There's no way so the asswipes get away with it. Sad really.


Howard I can see one decoy being an asshole and jamming a dog on purpose. I cannot see 3 decoys working in cahoots to basically destroy a dog at a trial where there are many knowledgable observers. Just doesn't make sense. I can't speak for LEO decoys but I can tell you that sport decoys love a great dog, it's why they do it - it sure as HELL isn't for the money!!!!!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sometimes serious injuries do occur, whether from bad decoying or from mistakes. Remember the 2007 FMBB in France? One dog got his sternum broke and Two dogs got their legs broken. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn_AnOiYi_c

This wasn't intentional either. I have read that the injuries were caused because they decided to use decoys more versed in ring rather than schutzhund, though I don't know for a fact that's true. I just balk at the idea of 3 decoys purposely setting out to destroy a dog.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> That's a little naive, Susan. It happens. Even seen it happen among LEOs for christ sake! Jealousy makes people do stupid shit. I don't know if this really happened to Jerry's dog but it is something I believe can happen. Worst part is, how do you prove it was intentional and not a mistake? There's no way so the asswipes get away with it. Sad really.





susan tuck said:


> Howard I can see one decoy being an asshole and jamming a dog on purpose. I cannot see 3 decoys working in cahoots to basically destroy a dog at a trial where there are many knowledgable observers. Just doesn't make sense. I can't speak for LEO decoys but I can tell you that sport decoys love a great dog, it's why they do it - it sure as HELL isn't for the money!!!!!


Something sounds kooky like Susan said there have been some accusations of turning the sleeve and some jams way back when, in our sport now with the helper selections process and all the helpers being peers of one another, video cameras shady shit is pretty risky to try. What happen to my dog last fall at our Regional I heard whispers of shadiness I think the guy was a stupid fuk trying to show off and he train wrecked my dog. 
Even having a accident you may not be working dogs at any big events depending who they are.
For three people brutalizing and destroying a dog for all to see..... meh


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Sometimes serious injuries do occur, whether from bad decoying or from mistakes. Remember the 2007 FMBB in France? One dog got his sternum broke and Two dogs got their legs broken. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn_AnOiYi_c
> 
> This wasn't intentional either. I have read that the injuries were caused because they decided to use decoys more versed in ring rather than schutzhund, though I don't know for a fact that's true. I just balk at the idea of 3 decoys purposely setting out to destroy a dog.


I cant watching that video once was enough for me


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Howard I can see one decoy being an asshole and jamming a dog on purpose. I cannot see 3 decoys working in cahoots to basically destroy a dog at a trial where there are many knowledgable observers. Just doesn't make sense. I can't speak for LEO decoys but I can tell you that sport decoys love a great dog, it's why they do it - it sure as HELL isn't for the money!!!!!



I must have missed something. I don't recall 3 decoys allegedly conspiring against this dog. If that is the case it's majorly fukked up. I see your point if that is what is alleged. One dickhead yes, 3 is a tough sell.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Howard here is the post:



Jerry Cudahy said:


> corrupt, almost every ring3 bite exercise was ordered redone by the judge due to cheating by all three decoys
> 
> axel was brutalised in the blind
> 
> ...


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

"An honest 95lbs of pure danger"

Keep'em comin jerr, your on a roll man:lol:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thanks Susan. He used the word "Cheating", I didn't make the connection. Expounding on "cheating" by Jerry might clear things up.

And if the judge is forcing him to redo each exercise because of cheating, why the frik didn't the judge step in as he obviously saw something wrong.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Drew Peirce said:


> "An honest 95lbs of pure danger"
> 
> Keep'em comin jerr, your on a roll man:lol:


I am 6'3, Dewey when he stands on his rear, can place his front legs fully on my shoulders and look me straight in the eye.

Buddy can work him in July, we will vid it


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Please do man, I have a 10mo old pup I'm raising right now that's going to be that size also, it's a new experience for me as I've always believed 80lbs to be the sweet spot for a police dog, I've seen the behemoths over the years and they just never had the speed, explosiveness, agility and most importantly endurance of the smaller dogs, but this pup looks like he could change that perception, the physical power he posesses at this age is unlike anything I've ever seen or experienced before.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> I must have missed something. I don't recall 3 decoys allegedly conspiring against this dog. If that is the case it's majorly fukked up. I see your point if that is what is alleged. One dickhead yes, 3 is a tough sell.



Don't forget there was a judge also. That makes at least 4 people involved in this conspiracy. Then there are the people that were watching. 

Let's just all give Jerry a pass on this story. It was interesting. It had good guys and bad guys. It had intrigue. it had tragedy. It was a good story. My great Uncle was in WW2 and told some great stories. No they were not historically correct, but they were great stories. It would be a sad sad world if old guys stop telling their stories. 

Tell us another story Uncle Jerry.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

You would have to wash my brain with bleach to believe this story,i know there are some reall hard die hard dogs but a dog with a broken jaw will have problems gripping a suit even if he wanted to. Apart from that the story is just tooooooooooo fake , pls try again#-o


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> You would have to wash my brain with bleach to believe this story,i know there are some reall hard die hard dogs but a dog with a broken jaw will have problems gripping a suit even if he wanted to. Apart from that the story is just tooooooooooo fake , pls try again#-o


The Judge was Valladon, why don.t u ask him


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> I guess I will say that a good dog is a good dog is a good dog! Yes some may not be able to do sport or PSD, however I truly beleive if the dog is good he can do well in either discipline. Maybe not at the same time due to the type of training and/or different sports, however I beleive a good trainer with a good dog would do well in each. Dog selection and training are more of a factor than the dog itself.
> 
> May agree or disagree, but I do think a good well rounded dog could be tailored and excelled in either


I like this. Sometimes it seems like common sense isn't so common any more.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*I think the internet is leaking testesterone again.*

Sometimes it can leak out of your computer, and ruin the finish on
your desk.


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