# Police Dog Real Bicep Bite



## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

OUCH!!!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-SQpi1xL45Jg/police_dogs_vs_criminals_part_6/


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

If the guy didn't sit down and turn his back to the dog, that dog probably wouldn't bite.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Yeah, its easy to sit here and monday morning QB it.. but that seemed a little off.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Yea, I'm not sure either if he would have bitten, but I bet next time he'll be more likely to bite. He seemed to enjoy it once on the bite.


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## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

I don't like the fact that it took some time to get the dog off the arm, aren't they suppose to let go when told?. The handler finally had to flank the dog to make him let go.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

that seem pretty weak?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Matt Grosch said:


> that seem pretty weak?


Compared to biting a sleeve or suit, yes. I would just be tickled pink if someone would post a video of their dog trying this, maybe for the first or second time.

Then you would hear excuses you've never heard before in anyones lifetime :lol:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I think the dog was being punished for not going straight after the guy. If you don't want to bite then you just stay there till you like it.

Just Kidding.

The guy is lucky they didn't 10-2 him off the bite, and I'm not kidding here.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It looks like there maybe wasn't sufficient environmental offset in this dogs foundation. The dog doesn't seem to take issue with biting but because of the commotion he seemed momentarily confused about exactly where to go or who his target was.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> It looks like there maybe wasn't sufficient environmental offset in this dogs foundation.


Ya, that's it.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Nice enough engagement I thought... nothing too quick to miss...

Took hold of the bad guy nice and keep hold...no rebites etc...or anything that would look bad for the hairy-fairy-liberals...

Nice 'flanking' by the officer at 1:02 in the film.. 8-[


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

if this is the one i have seen this before
search more on the internet and you'll find the breakdown
the cops shot the dog and bad guy with rubber bullets on the way in, you can see him flinch


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I saw a better quality video of this before . The dog did get hit by a beanbag while coming in . 

Anybody here work with flashbangs going off and beanbag rounds flying . There are a ton of distractions going on in this scenerio besides that . 

The smoke from the flashbang is distracting also . My dog will try and go around the smoke many times no matter how many times I practice this . I have to have the SWAT officer throwing it take that into account . But anyone who has been in a real situation like that knows things don't go as planned no matter how hard or much you train . I would like all our situations like this to go down like a well planned Special Forces take down but in the real thing it often doesn't and you have to change up and improvise . My guess is most Special forces take downs don't go as planned and if there was video of it anyone could monday morning quarterback it to death . That's why we debrief afterwards and discuss what went wrong and needs to be aware of or corrected and there is ALWAYS things that need to be corrected and improved upon .

There are definately things I would improve in this scenerio . The dog isn't one of them . He did a good job . Went after the guy amongst many distractions took a beanbag round coming in and though it threw him off a bit coming in he did go in and engage the badguy well . 

The dog outed slow after being drivin that hard and being in pain from taking a bean bag round . After all that I would expect most dogs to out slow . I think the dog outed pretty quickly considering all that . 

You guys kill me .


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That certainly explains it. I couldn't get the video to reload after I watched it once so I appreciate hearing a different perspective on the matter. Seemed a bit bizarre to me that the dog reacted the way he did when he went in but once got his bearings I liked what I saw and I didn't think twice about the speed of his out.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Jim,

It's hard to argue the results. Dog got a good bite. Bad guy in jail.D>

Simple really.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

WTF are they doing still shooting the bean bags when the dog is released ??

The fact that the dog did his job anyway seems good enough to me. I am pretty sure that if you were to shoot any of my current dogs with a bean bag they would turn and come back to me. You know, a correction ?? I could never be sure, but I have seen the damage those things do on a jackass episode, and that is a hell of a correction for the dog to work through. I thought he got hit more than once, but the video is not clear enough to see the first time. Looks like it though.

I will not be testing the bean bag theory anytime soon to see if the dog keeps going.

Reminds me of the guy that got shot up in LA when they shot him AND the dog. Dumbass video. Couldn't find it, and I am kinda glad. That one pissed me off a bit. The guy was holding the police off with a sandal.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WTF are they doing still shooting the bean bags when the dog is released ??
> 
> .


I'm sure in your world, where everything in perfect, such things of course don't happen. In the real world, as Jim said, not everything goes as planned. So you adapt, improvise and overcome. You may have heard that somewhere. 

DFrost


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Reminds me of the guy that got shot up in LA when they shot him AND the dog. Dumbass video. Couldn't find it, and I am kinda glad. That one pissed me off a bit. The guy was holding the police off with a sandal.


Very true..that's one of the things that worries me about policing in different parts of the world..

_"When you rely on a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail"_


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'm sure in your world, where everything in perfect, such things of course don't happen.

Forgive me for expecting a COP of all things to be able to control his trigger finger. I know it is at the end of his arm, AND his hand, and sooooo far away from his brain.

Remember in the film they show you where there were this big percentage of cops that would get overstimulated from the sirens going off as they were going to a crime in progress, and eventually (pavlov) any time the sirens went off ??

If you cannot figure out that the lone person out there with a dog on a leash is the K9 unit, and that firing a ****ing weapon would PROBABLY not be a good idea.........................

What dumbass forgives this kind of stupidity ?? You are actually sticking up for this guy ?? Double dumbass.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

In the perfect world there is communication. Communication never fails, everybody knows what everyone else is doing. In the real world, it doesn't always work like that. Has nothing to do with me sticking up for the guy that shot the bean bag. I would hope there was an debrief so that particular problem won't happen again. In the perfect world, that is exactly what happened. I don't know if it did in that world or not. Don't remember saying anything about forgiving anyone. Just pointing out that when the fit hits the shan things happen that weren't planned for. 

DFrost


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2009)

The trend I've seen includes the following:

Handler not always being explicit about what he needs ahead of time.

After being told, everyone else forgetting/disregarding those things _anyway_ and monkeying with cars and potential tracks.

Brass forgetting/disregarding that K9 is in charge upon arrival, and doing peculiar things like disbanding perimeters for no particular reason.

Am I hearing continued shots even while the dog is ON the guy? Or is the noise out of sync?

If it's not out of sync it sounds like 1 or 2 individuals...and I'd be comfortable calling them out. It's not just the dog down there...the handler is pretty close too. Jesus H....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
In the perfect world there is communication. Communication never fails, everybody knows what everyone else is doing

She was right there in front of everyone. I think he was overstimulated and ignored the obvious and should retrain. If I had that narrow a field of view I would be dead right now. His advantage was that it was 1 guy.

The guy is still a dumbass.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Reminds me of the guy that got shot up in LA when they shot him AND the dog. Dumbass video. Couldn't find it, and I am kinda glad. That one pissed me off a bit. The guy was holding the police off with a sandal.


 
Didn't you post that up on here. I have seen that one too. They lit both the dog and that guy up. Dog didn't even make it to the guy. They deployed the dog and then the boy pulled the flip flop and must have been over 100 rounds went off. The back story on that one was bad too. The original handler didn't want to send in the dog. So the "whoever was in charge" was drunk at a bar/or party calling in what needed to be done and removed the original handler and had a rookie deploy his dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

They definately need some time on the firing range. It was pathetic. Like they just couldn't wait the guy out. 30 guys cannot wait out 1 idiot.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I didn't know that they were shooting bean bag, I was watching it with no audio cuz I don't want my dog to go nuts when he hears all the noise and stuff, but if the dog got hit and still bit then he is a good boy(-:, I wouldn't be to hard for him not wanting to out after being hit by people on his side, well trained dog then, but maybe the cops should have better training, stop shooting when your side is engaging the bad guy.(-:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Regardless of the level of the confrontation the "fog of war" is not just a saying. It's a real event. Each event gives opportunity for training.

DFrost


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

the siren thing is true Jeff, heart rate jumps at the sound
and remember all it takes is being 21 years old and a 4 month academy to be a cop, its all on the job training
I am not knocking them, im retired myself, just saying big difference between 20 years experience and 2
we used to train with a siren on, eventually after years certain personalities calm down more in high stress vs. getting geeked up

all that said...i am with Jeff the beanbag guy is ****ed up...sorry
but that could have easily been a real gun and a person


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Regardless of the level of the confrontation the "fog of war" is not just a saying. It's a real event. Each event gives opportunity for training.

It was 1 ****ing guy. Fog of war ?? What, insurgents were coming up the flanks ?? Snipers were reported in the area?? A regiment was closing in on their small unit ?? 

Would have been even more ****ed as he had tunnel vision and shot his own ****ing side.

At least you are consistant in supporting idiocy in police depts.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff, I think that was just a manner of speach.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Look at what he said, and tell me how it was a mannerism. Looks pretty clear.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

How accurate are the bean bag rounds? Just curious. I mean, does anyone believe the operator had to actually be aiming at the dog to hit him or was it just an errant round due to "The fog of war?" Either way the dog was street wise enough to not take it as a correction per se. I would love to have been a witness to the "conversation" between the handler and the shooter afterwards!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff, so you're saying that "fog of war" only exists if there is more than one person, or possible attacks from more than one side? I'm saying when a person is so tunnel visioned on a particular event, they fail to see what else is going on; for that person it is "fog of war". Better, or more or even proper training may have helped the officer perform better, but we are seeing reality. Obviously he either didn't have the proper training or enough of it or it was his first time or he's (the officer) is a blithering idiot. At any rate, it is what happened, real world, real time. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am going with blithering idiot. My definition of fog of war comes from the stress of the dangers involved fighting an ARMY, of some sort, not some random guy out in the street. LOL


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

The dog getting hit by the beanbag is one of the things I'm sure they looked at . Accuracy with those is usually good but they aren't bullets and some can go way off target if they start spinning wierd coming out of the barrell . I can see why they were still shooting . It wasn't having the effect it usually has on people and they still needed to keep the badguy busy for the dog . It's also hard to see the dog when your busy sighting in the guy and taking shots .

I've heard all this crap before about waiting out theses things . We wait out the majority of our guys like this but you can only do it so long especially if the department is short on resourses . How long can most departments tie up officers for this . There are other crimes going on in the city and the Officers usually answering outside of this standoff situation are usually working with very little backup . 

Radio channels are tied up , vehicles , rushhour maybe approaching , heat(takes a toll on the people out there) darkness , layout of the situation , etc are many factors on why the waiting game must end . 

I wouldn't be too happy if my dog got shot like that but I know it's a possibilty and the the guys were only trying to help my dog but sh*$ happened and I know we are going to work on not having it happen again .

We shot a guy in a very similiar situation as this . Guy had a real gun though and raised it at the takedown team . On another like this the beanbags worked great guy had a gun in each hand and the beanbags did the job . Guy thought he had really bean shot . Now put these SWAT guys in this situation . Do you think they might be taking it serious (fog of war) . Regardless of who it is most are going to be amped up . So it ain't Iraq it's still a big deal to that Officer because he dealing with a possiblly armed individual .


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Your efforts to play down the fact that the guy is a "blithering idiot" are not really working. I didn't see a gun in his hand. 

I would probably think more in terms of effective range. Looks like they didn't have that correct either.

HA HA


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

To get back on topic just a bit....anyone notice the dog was looking for the arm? Yea, he took a shot from a bean bag. Yes, there were distractions all over the place. The dog did a great job despite the conditions, no taking that from him at all but, why is he looking for an arm?

Had the guy been armed with a gun or knife things could have gone differently. I'd love to see that dog hit the guy from the rear in the shoulder, tricept or waist. The dog has huge potential, make him the best he can be.

Howard


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## Ron Swart (Jun 7, 2007)

That was a standoff that happened in downtown Phoenix in the midst of rush hour if I remember correctly. The suspect was claiming to be armed and concealing the weapon under the yellow sweater. 

Its been a while since I heard the story but the plan was to engage the suspect with beanbags, toss diversionary devices, and send the dog from cover. 

Once it was initiated the dog didn't have target ID and the handler left cover to go out in the middle of the street to send the dog. They had to yell at her to LOOK OUT! Definitely not part of the plan. SAU had to adapt and move up to cover her.

Watching the video you can see the beanbags impacting the suspect are being fired from the right side of the screen. In fact the yellow sweater is shot from his hands with beanbags. You can hear the beanbags being fired as the handler moves up, releases the dog, and then they stop. 

The round that hit the dog was fired from a SAGE gun (37mm rubber baton round) from the Officer on the left side of the screen. It makes a distinctive blooping sound when fired. 

Watching the video closely at :14 it looks to me like the round impacted the suspect, bounced off of him and struck the dog. Listen and watch closely, one shot suspect reacts by starting to fold up, the dog reacts, and suspect goes down from it. 

Yeah he sat down because he just got hit with something that impacts like a 120 mph fastball! In fact the Officer fires several more times with the dog on the bite striking the suspect on the leg and not the dog.

I dont work for Phoenix but the Phoenix Special Assignments Unit is full time SWAT. I have trained them and been part of training they have put on. Generally Officers dont get on SAU until they have many years on. One guy I knew had 16 years on the Department and multiple testings for SAU before an opening came up and he was able to get on the Unit. 

Just a long winded way of saying there are not any rookies on SAU and they don't suffer "blithering idiots". If one managed to get on somehow he would not last.


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## Ron Swart (Jun 7, 2007)

Reading Jim's post about not waiting this guy out. It was in the afternoon in downtown Phoenix at Central and Virginia. God knows how many people are stuck in buildings in the surrounding area because of this idiot.

I found another video that says the suspect was claiming to have a pipe bomb. Which makes the throwing motion in the video pretty sinister. In fact he's probably lucky he didn't get shot by a sniper.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Thanks for the info Ron. Sounds like Murphy was present too!

Anybody ever thought of putting a live stun gun on the end of a muzzle for a "Dog delivery?" A slow out would be quite a "shocking experience" for the bad guy, LOL. I bet the dog would really get off on the effect. Naw, bites are so much more fun!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am going with blithering idiot. My definition of fog of war comes from the stress of the dangers involved fighting an ARMY, of some sort, not some random guy out in the street. LOL


I've been there as well. We may have a similar perspective relative that situation. I've also seen it in less environments. I would imagine, if you been in a situation involving the fighting of an army, you've also seen people react much differently than they did in training. I've seen that. I don't think a conflict has to be of a particular size to have confusion, panic, uncertainty and even the fore mentioned "blithering idiot" surface.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ron, I admit to responding without knowing all the facts. It's good to hear all the facts. I can see where there were certainly some well choreographed movements, if what you say is true. If the handler was moving from cover after deploying the dog, I'm even more impressed that the handler has trained enough with SWAT to cover and move during a canine deployment. You probably realize as I, there are still handler not using a cover and move during building searches. That's another story though. while the possibility of "blithering idiots" is still possible in a deployment, from what you've stated on this deployment, I don't see it.

DFrost


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> I didn't know that they were shooting bean bag, I was watching it with no audio cuz I don't want my dog to go nuts when he hears all the noise and stuff, but if the dog got hit and still bit then he is a good boy(-:, I wouldn't be to hard for him not wanting to out after being hit by people on his side, well trained dog then, but maybe the cops should have better training, stop shooting when your side is engaging the bad guy.(-:


Saw a vid clip about a PSD got shot by own police fellowmen. Think some of you might have seen that vid. They released the PSD and at the same time fired live at the criminal. That poor PSD was shot from the back. Poor chap.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Colin Chin said:


> Saw a vid clip about a PSD got shot by own police fellowmen. Think some of you might have seen that vid. They released the PSD and at the same time fired live at the criminal. That poor PSD was shot from the back. Poor chap.


That was a really bad video. Just no defending some idiots. 

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I was talking about another video that was talked about in this thread. It was night and the guy claimed to have a gun but only had a flip flop shoe. They could have waited him out. The dog was killed and so was the man pinned on a porch at night. He had no place to go. Not the guy in this video.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

David Frost said:


> That was a really bad video. Just no defending some idiots.
> 
> DFrost


Hi David,
In such instance, do you think that cop that shot the PSD will be held responsible ?

Colin


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

We just retired a K9 possibly shot by another Police Officer . I'm not going to go into details since a lawsuit may be pending for the guy who stated he wanted to die via police and succeeded . But knowing the facts the officers did what they had to do and the dog wasn't sent on a suicide mission but events unfolded quickly and shit happened and the dog was shot . 

Reviewing it the cops did a good job , the K9 Handler did a good job and the dog did a good job . 

Like in this case it's good to have all the facts before you condemn anyone . Dogs getting shot aren't good but it doesn't neccessarily mean someone F'd up .


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Since the thread has gotten off topic I'll make a point:

The dog dragged that son of a bitch all over the place, executing the best correction a dog can execute in an apprehension supposing the first bite is deep and firm, unless you think a head shake and shredded flesh is a better alternative for the 10 o'clock news.

My personal opinion is that the dog was confused b/c the suspect was sitting on his ass at the merge. I doubt that dog has ever done a take on a decoy sitting on his ass.

The missing comment from the thread is, 'good thing the dog didn't do a take on guy's face', cause a public whah whah whah fest would ensue and the dog would get prematurely retired. Just my $.02. Now, I'll go back to carving my precious little GSD figurines out of soap.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

He aquitted himself very well once you dissect the deployment, would I be disappointed if it were my dog? Yep
Does that mean the dog turned in a subpar performance? Nope


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## Ron Swart (Jun 7, 2007)

David, the handler left cover to stand in the middle of the street to send the dog. It wasn't planned for and SAU had to move up to protect her. 

I've seen the LA video with the suspect armed with a sandal too and agree with the other posters that was screwed up!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Colin Chin said:


> Hi David,
> In such instance, do you think that cop that shot the PSD will be held responsible ?
> 
> Colin


Colin, I seriously doubt it. I honestly don't know what happened in the aftermath of that case, but I doubt the officer would be held responsible. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ron Swart said:


> David, the handler left cover to stand in the middle of the street to send the dog. It wasn't planned for and SAU had to move up to protect her.
> 
> I've seen the LA video with the suspect armed with a sandal too and agree with the other posters that was screwed up!



Then I'd question her tactics. Wasn't there though, so can't criticize. Was she ordered to deploy the dog? 

DFrost


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## Ron Swart (Jun 7, 2007)

David, Yes but from what I heard she was supposed to send the dog from a position with SAU and when the dog wasn't picking up the suspect the handler moved up without clearing it with SAU.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

So we're back to poor communitcation. I'll withdraw the blithering idiot comment. 

DFrost


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I am relieved that not a single sexist comment was made


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

The important thing to take out of it is the importance to train with swat on a regular basis and to prepare your dog for these type of encounters.


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## Ron Swart (Jun 7, 2007)

Matt's right. We have a couple of newer dogs we need to do some LSDD training with. They have been exposed to DDs on SWAT calls but have never been sent after a DD has been tossed. 

We are planning to do some training with DDs and sending them in on a suited decoy. I'd like to also have a beanbag shotgun and fire it as they are sent too. Just have to figure out how to have the target away from the decoy!

We are training with SWAT this month doing long line building searches.


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