# First Ever WDF Training Challenge…



## Matthew Grubb

Ok… Here it is… I put together a bunch of videos of dogs attacking their handlers during an assault. The dogs are from all over the US and two are from Canada. None of the US dogs train together and only two are from the same state. 
I tell you this so there is no assumption that they are/were trained the same. The filming obviously took place at a seminar they were all attending. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI08YuPsHec


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## Chris McDonald

That was interesting; I have never seen or even thought it. I can see the handler being bit or hurt by accident, but those dogs simply attacked there handler. What’s the deal bad dog? No bond? Maybe the dog was waiting a long time to do this and thought the handler dissevered it? Do these dogs stay on the street? Or are they retired to the farm?


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## Gillian Schuler

Interesting to see that the dog nearly always went for the chap on the ground first and when the opponent was floored then went for him.

Lost track of who was handler but the man on the floor always got it.


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris McDonald said:


> That was interesting; I have never seen or even thought it. I can see the handler being bit or hurt by accident, but those dogs simply attacked there handler. What’s the deal bad dog? No bond? Maybe the dog was waiting a long time to do this and thought the handler dissevered it? Do these dogs stay on the street? Or are they retired to the farm?


I think he answered your question in the another post it's TRAINING muzzle your dog and let your wife kick the shit out of you try it at home.
Interesting video Mathew this should have the ppd people busy this weekend :-k and rethinking what they know about dog's


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## Barrie Kirkland

Chris McDonald said:


> That was interesting; I have never seen or even thought it. I can see the handler being bit or hurt by accident, but those dogs simply attacked there handler. What’s the deal bad dog? No bond? Maybe the dog was waiting a long time to do this and thought the handler dissevered it? Do these dogs stay on the street? Or are they retired to the farm?



No , i think its more like they havnt done this before & the dogs were initially confused imo


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## Gillian Schuler

You'd be surprised how many times the handler gets bitten by his own dog, especially in protection when the dog is thwarted. It's always good to have a mental plan of what you're going to do when the worm turns  .


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## Gillian Schuler

Just found the rest of the other thread so forget my comments on the dog going after the weaker. What is the scene like when the dog doesn't wear a muzzle - the same???? I mean how does the dog react and not how much blood is on the floor:-D


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## Matthew Grubb

Its not that the dogs or bad or there is no bond...its all about the dog's genetics and what dogs do in the wild. 

Do some group obedience with a bunch of STRONG dogs with some rank drive. Have one one of the handlers realy start correcting their dog HARD. Watch one or two dogs fire up at the dog that's being corrected. Genetics are coming into play.. Strong dogs with some rank drive are going to reack and "jump on the correction band wagon". This excercise is no different. 

Genetics and true dog behavior come into play and the dog attacks the weaker, subbordinate person... The handler. When the handler gets up and puts the decoy in the subbordinate position the dynamic changes. 

Your dog doesn't love you no matter how much you want it to! Lol


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## Julie Blanding

The best part of the video:
"go down properly, watch your balls, watch your face and watch your ribs"

I did notice they love going for whomever is on the bottom. 

I agree with Matt. I've seen it for myself at home with my own dogs. You start correcting one dog and then at least one of my others rushes in to get in on it.

Very interesting indeed.
Julie


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## Chad Byerly

Thanks for putting together that video. Quite a pattern there! Looks like a really good scenario to train dogs for (or should I say to train against).


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## Al Curbow

I'd still be interested to see if the dogs act the same without a muzzle on, after a couple of times they know they have the muzzle on and can't bite. Matthew, was this the first time the dog/s were tested on this excersize or were you in the middle of teaching the dog not to go for his handler?


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## Phil Dodson

> With the amount of videos and lectures about this, it is amazing that it is still not included in muzzle training. Years ago I wrote an article on muzzle training. received a lot of kudos, only one person stated I forgot a topic, exactly what you displayed on the video!! Woke me up quick!!

> Phil


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## Kristen Cabe

Matthew Grubb said:


> Do some group obedience with a bunch of STRONG dogs with some rank drive. Have one one of the handlers realy start correcting their dog HARD. Watch one or two dogs fire up at the dog that's being corrected. Genetics are coming into play.. Strong dogs with some rank drive are going to reack and "jump on the correction band wagon". This excercise is no different. Genetics and true dog behavior come into play and the dog attacks the weaker, subbordinate personl





Julie Blanding said:


> I've seen it for myself at home with my own dogs. You start correcting one dog and then at least one of my others rushes in to get in on it.



Absolutely. I've seen it_ many_ times, and I actually had to deal with this just last night. My foster dog is VERY reactive, for lack of a better term, whenever there is food, or a chew bone, cow hoof, etc. anywhere in his vicinity. I knew when I brought him home that he was possessive over such things when he was in his crate, but was not told that he was also this way _out _of the crate. There have been a few instances where he's lifted his lip, growled, or actually gone after one of my dogs, and once or twice one of the cats, not because he actually HAD something, but because it happened to be within 10ft of him! As a result, I've had to really keep watch on him and correct him at the first signs (usually showing his teeth), but last night I didn't quite make it before he had lunged at Gypsy over a beef jerky _WRAPPER_ that my husband had placed on the couch cushion next to him 5min earlier. Gypsy was doing nothing but laying on the floor at my husband's feet, and Jax (the foster) came over, saw the wrapper on the couch, bared his teeth, and went for Gypsy before I could grab his collar. She, of course, retaliated because the attack was unwarranted, but by that time I had Jax by the collar and told her that was enough and she quit. However, when I started correcting him, she quickly strutted over, tail and hackles up, and was going to try and join in. She's not a fighting dog, but she doesn't back down if someone jumps on her, and she's quick to try and jump in when someone else is being fussed at or corrected. Luckily, she's easy to 'call off' as long as I'm in control of the other dog. I can simply tell her to go on, and she won't come forward any further. 



I believe you could possibly train the dog to go after the assailant, but would the dog then think that it was to go after whoever was standing up, instead of whoever was on the ground? How would you teach the dog to simply bite the person who was not the dog's handler, regardless of where the handler happened to be?


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## Phil Dodson

> I have the dogs attention taken from the handler by the quarry just prior to striking the handler on the ground by a quick movement to draw him away.

> Phil


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I would love a definition of "strong dog" and "rank drive." Maybe rank is the problem. Take out the weak is an element of nature but if your dog will join in on the kill once his handler is down, what's the point. I think in the other discussion there were two bitches that didn't join in on the kill of their handler. Why????

Terrasita


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## Lyn Chen

Opportunistic dogs aren't always strong and 'rank' dogs. You would probably get a similar result with a very opportunistic but 'omega' type dog...just looking for an excuse to climb up that ladder.


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## Chris Michalek

I wonder if it would be different in a REAL situation. In the seminar there was no tension and it looked more like play. Perhaps the dog can sense the difference?

How many of you guys have played rough with your dog especially as a puppy where you are on the ground?


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## Kristen Cabe

Lyn Chen said:


> Opportunistic dogs aren't always strong and 'rank' dogs. You would probably get a similar result with a very opportunistic but 'omega' type dog...just looking for an excuse to climb up that ladder.



My Gypsy is an excellent example. She is not a strong or rank dog. Yet, she always tries to join in whenever someone else is in trouble.


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## Anne Vaini

Is this about opportunistic dogs? Or a conditioned response?

We know dogs aren't good at generalizing. And we know dogs frequently have a "superstitution" or misunderstanding of a cue.

If a dog always bites the man that is down, the dog will respond that way. If the trainer mixes it up, the dog will learn to go for the decoy (not just the man that is down). IMO, this is not a whole lot different than teach dogs 2 decoy situations. It's breaking the conditioned response by varying the training, in order to get the desired response.

I've seen the same situation. It was used as a training exercise with some GOOD PSD's that had the conditioned response of biting the man on the ground. The video I saw was from a Kevin Sheldahl seminar. It took 2 tries to solve the problem. A quick correction (usually) verbal and redirect to the decoy...


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## David Scholes

So, it sounds like it is fixable with training... anyone disagree?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Still want that PPD ????? 

I can hear the Walt Disney bubbles poppin


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## Robin Gan

Hi,

I did muzzle work with my students (security dog handlers) recently and we never had a third party to handle someone else's dogs. The dogs will learn to accept command from the person holding the leash which resulted it going for his own handler.

I guessed good bonding and correct setting for training is the key. 

http://www.real-k9.com/Protection Training.html ( go to muzzle attack to watch video)


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## Kevin Cramer

I was at this seminar where the video was filmed. I believe the instructors stated that they do this all around the country and about 90% of the dogs go after their handler who is on the ground. Once the tables are turned and the handlers are then in the dominant position the dog then goes for the attacker. If I recall, I believe their opinion was that it is trainable to an extent.


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## Mo Earle

when I was training with a very good decoy that does FR,PPD's etc, this was a lesson he suggested we worked on, since we were working our dogs in Security. We trained first with Chico, I was knocked to the ground, and initially Chico was coming toward me- the explanation was the dog's behavior will cause him to go for the weaker, the one down- once Chico was shown, to go for the aggressor, he never targeted me again-always went after the other guy or girl-this is a great lesson for everyone to do with their dogs.


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## David Scholes

Oh boy. An attacker gets you on the ground and your own dog finishes you off and eats you for lunch. Better keep the gun. I can just imagine the headlines. Another reason to never leave a child alone with a dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood

There was a similar thread (without the proof/video) a year or so ago, not very many thought the dog would bite the handler. I don't buy the lack of bond idea, dogs will go after anything on the bottom, ever see a multiple dog fight and noticed how the one laying on its back gets the shit kicked out of him by everyone ??


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## Al Curbow

Who started this anyway , now i gotta try it, and i'm so sure my dog won't bite me i'm not going to use a muzzle, lol. I'll take video............


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## Matthew Grubb

Al Curbow Wrote: 

I'd still be interested to see if the dogs act the same without a muzzle on, after a couple of times they know they have the muzzle on and can't bite. Matthew, was this the first time the dog/s were tested on this excersize or were you in the middle of teaching the dog not to go for his handler?

Al.. This was a demonstration exercise to teach handlers what they need to do if they find themselves on the loosing end of the stick and their dog is already deployed.


Anne Viani Wrote: 

I've seen the same situation. It was used as a training exercise with some GOOD PSD's that had the conditioned response of biting the man on the ground. The video I saw was from a Kevin Sheldahl seminar. It took 2 tries to solve the problem. A quick correction (usually) verbal and redirect to the decoy...

Ann… I’ve seen that video as well and my training group commonly use that methodology in training…. It doesn’t help with THIS exercise when it is set up EXACTLY the same way. Remember… On the street, the decoy doesn’t try to target the dog or become a more appealing prey than the downed handler.


Robin Gan Wrote:

we never had a third party to handle someone else's dogs. The dogs will learn to accept command from the person holding the leash which resulted it going for his own handler.

Robin…. No one was giving the dogs any commands except for the handler. The “assistants” were merely posting the dog and dropping the leash.


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## Mike Scheiber

Al Curbow said:


> Who started this anyway , now i gotta try it, and i'm so sure my dog won't bite me i'm not going to use a muzzle, lol. I'll take video............


Well Al you obviously got a good set of seeds I hope you bundle them up good before you give it a go. 
We don't need a episode of Jackass gone wrong on the WDF


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## Matthew Grubb

Mike Scheiber said:


> Well Al you obviously got a good set of seeds I hope you bundle them up good before you give it a go.
> We don't need a episode of Jackass gone wrong on the WDF


 
Yea Al.... I know you want to try it without the muzzle but I think the result will be the same. :mrgreen:


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## Al Curbow

I'm positive he'll go for the guy in the suit...............i hope, lol


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## Matthew Grubb

Al Curbow said:


> I'm positive he'll go for the guy in the suit...............i hope, lol


Al... Thats why we use the muzzle. If we would have used a prey item like a suit or a sleeve you would have just seen a bunch of dogs engaging a decoy. With the dog in muzzle you can remove all of the problems associated with equipment like the suit.


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## Jerry Lyda

I said it and I'm sticking to my word. Give me some time to get it set up with my son. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to say it. I will do it without the muzzle but the decoy will have to wear protection. Or I can do it with the muzzle.


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## Matthew Grubb

Jerry Lyda said:


> I said it and I'm sticking to my word. Give me some time to get it set up with my son. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to say it. I will do it without the muzzle but the decoy will have to wear protection. Or I can do it with the muzzle.


Jerry… I think if you do the exercise with any type of decoy equipment you change the dynamic. Remember, the original thread that started all this dealt with equipment vs. no equipment.

I believe the muzzled dog will provide the most honest evaluation.


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## Chris McDonald

I watched this a few times I find it very interesting, my knowledge is extremely limited but I will throw in my two cents to be critiqued and a few questions I have. First off I don’t buy the “hard dog” attacking the weakest crock of crap, although I do believe this to be true in bringing down game and is part of their genetics. It’s just a really bad excuse for bad training. I think this is the result of training a dog to bite in happy ass prey drive to much. These dogs think everything is just a game there training has caused them to be such happy asses that they think attacking there owner is part of the happy ass game. Is it possible these dogs are trained as sport dogs and confused? One example I can give is if I slip the sleeve with my father’s Sch dog, if I hit him with a stick he just gets mad and shakes the sleeve. He is not slick enough to let go and attack the source of the beating. It’s all a game. I am going to assume these are sport dogs or poorly trained protection dogs. I hate to believe these are cop dogs but if they were where they allowed back on the street? If so why? Is this an acceptable standard; if these are acceptable to police k9s something is real wrong. And I heard what sounded like a bunch of 12 year old girls giggling, where they behind the camera? Is this what happens when you don’t actually attempt to be serious when training. I would think this should be considered a safety hazard why all the giggling? 
Nice video Mat, thanks for sharing it


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: First off I don’t buy the “hard dog” attacking the weakest crock of crap, 

Why not??? It would be easier to slam.....er "critique" your arguement that way. (smilie)

Quote: These dogs think everything is just a game there training has caused them to be such happy asses that they think attacking there owner is part of the happy ass game. Is it possible these dogs are trained as sport dogs and confused? 

What part of instinctual behavior are you not getting????? Dogs jump in a beat on the one on the bottom. What about this are you not understanding???

What we have dogs doing, ie running and taking a man from the front is not natural behavior.


Quote: One example I can give is if I slip the sleeve with my father’s Sch dog, if I hit him with a stick he just gets mad and shakes the sleeve. He is not slick enough to let go and attack the source of the beating. 

And you want to talk safety issues????? Maybe your fathers dog isn't enough dog, but I know enough not to do stupid shit like that with just any dog. However, be fair, your fathers dog is a sch dog, and letting go is not what he has been conditioned to do. The head shaking is a clue of what he would do if it were not for the conditioning he has had.


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## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: First off I don’t buy the “hard dog” attacking the weakest crock of crap,
> 
> Why not??? It would be easier to slam.....er "critique" your arguement that way. (smilie)
> 
> Quote: These dogs think everything is just a game there training has caused them to be such happy asses that they think attacking there owner is part of the happy ass game. Is it possible these dogs are trained as sport dogs and confused?
> 
> What part of instinctual behavior are you not getting "none of it" ????? Dogs jump in a beat on the one on the bottom. What about this are you not understanding???
> Because if the dog was hard or soft I think they both can be trained to do the right thing and not attack there handler
> 
> What we have dogs doing, ie running and taking a man from the front is not natural behavior.
> So your saying if my kid was getting beat down by a full size man my dog is going to attack my daughter. Are you saying this is always the case? What was done differently with the last dog in the video that he did well?
> 
> 
> Quote: One example I can give is if I slip the sleeve with my father’s Sch dog, if I hit him with a stick he just gets mad and shakes the sleeve. He is not slick enough to let go and attack the source of the beating.
> 
> And you want to talk safety issues????? Maybe your fathers dog isn't enough dog, but I know enough not to do stupid shit like that with just any dog. However, be fair, your fathers dog is a sch dog, and letting go is not what he has been conditioned to do. The head shaking is a clue of what he would do if it were not for the conditioning he has had.


I got a sleeve on the other arm, just never had to use id. I know I’m not the sharpest knife in the draw buy those teeth look like they will hurt

My point is if these dogs were better trained this would not happen to this degree, and you only answered a few of my questions…. Don’t be picking and choosing all or none… you are going to call me such a piece of shit when you get to NJ it gona be great


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Because if the dog was hard or soft I think they both can be trained to do the right thing and not attack there handler 

Yes, but people fail to do so, obviously.

The last dog in the video did well because of the actions of the bad guy. Notice how he draws attention to himself. The others did not do that.

Quote: I got a sleeve on the other arm, just never had to use id. I know I’m not the sharpest knife in the draw buy those teeth look like they will hurt

But again, a Sch dog is conditioned to bite and hold on to what he has.


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris McDonald said:


> I watched this a few times I find it very interesting, my knowledge is extremely limited but I will throw in my two cents to be critiqued and a few questions I have. First off I don’t buy the “hard dog” attacking the weakest crock of crap, although I do believe this to be true in bringing down game and is part of their genetics. It’s just a really bad excuse for bad training. I think this is the result of training a dog to bite in happy ass prey drive to much. These dogs think everything is just a game there training has caused them to be such happy asses that they think attacking there owner is part of the happy ass game. Is it possible these dogs are trained as sport dogs and confused? One example I can give is if I slip the sleeve with my father’s Sch dog, if I hit him with a stick he just gets mad and shakes the sleeve. He is not slick enough to let go and attack the source of the beating. It’s all a game. I am going to assume these are sport dogs or poorly trained protection dogs. I hate to believe these are cop dogs but if they were where they allowed back on the street? If so why? Is this an acceptable standard; if these are acceptable to police k9s something is real wrong. And I heard what sounded like a bunch of 12 year old girls giggling, where they behind the camera? Is this what happens when you don’t actually attempt to be serious when training. I would think this should be considered a safety hazard why all the giggling?
> Nice video Mat, thanks for sharing it


You have no clue what you were watching if you did there wouldn't be a quote above.The only reference you have made about dog training is your dad's Schutzhund dog and some dog you purchased from some over priced dog shysters. Oh video of the dog you bought doing some circus tricks
Go to youtube and search "Papillon circus dog" watch a Papillon out performing your Dutch on ladders, high wire and flaming hoop.
Ya cant rip and laugh at dog trainers and there video when you still smell like piss.


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## Frenk Delacroix

Can anyone address this issue from the standpoint of real world experience? I am thinking of police officers or other K9 professionals who were either 1) attacked by their own dog when down FOR REAL, or 2) rescued by their dog when down, also for real. Or else someone else with a trained dog but in the real world.

A hard dog that bites its handler is a common enough phenomenon. But I do not remember reading or hearing about a dog who bit its handler when the handler was really down because of attack. But maybe that's either my bad memory or a reluctance to discuss this sort of thing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Frank, have you ever done this scenario before ? ? ? ?


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## Gillian Schuler

What would happen if you repeated the exercise without a decoy? Dog is held (not so neutral as you say btw as the first dog is "set up" - the line holder "strokes" the dog along its back) but the handler runs away and throws himself on the ground. My dogs have always thought this is a great game. I had to shut them out when I did stomach crunches.

Another question, does the dog really perceive who is what - he sees a fight / rough housing (lots of noise at one end and jeering at the other and can't wait to go into the fray.

Doesn't convince me -* If *I had a PPD, he'd be on the lead next to me on the street / in the woods, wherever and wouldn't be "driven" crazy first.


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## Jerry Lyda

Gillian, You are right. A ppd will be at your side(most of the time). There will be times that he won't. In APPDA the dogs are test both with you and away from you. A psd will be in the car most of the time until he goes to work. He will have a specific job to do. The psd comes out of the car amped knowing this. A ppd is most always with you and must behave accordingly. Only when there is some sort of threat will he be expected to fire up. A ppd has to have a light switch. The psd must be always on unless they go home and are chilling with the officers family. There is a difference in the two types of dogs because of the training. I believe that a ppd can go on the street as a police k9 but most psd can't be protection dogs( because of the training).

I'll recreate this video with ppd and will use a muzzle to make it fair. Useing a suit would not be. I also stated that I would video the way we do it in APPDA. We don't use a muzzle in APPDA but in the higher titles I think this would be a good idea. I have only one dog that has ever worn a muzzle and that's Bentley. Our atm excercise is very much like this except no one is holding the dog ( he is left in the car with the window down) and we don't get knocked to the ground. When you are attacked at the atm, the decoy will cover you up to keep you from getting bit. Not all dogs will do this and may well bit the handler BUT we have to think about safety here for the competitors. Now at training I would expect them to train with the handler on the ground and use a muzzle. This whole topic has made me do a lot of thinking and I think we should add this to be one of our excercises, with muzzle.

The dogs and handlers that I will use for this video will be ,Me and Lexus, me and Bentley, Jay and Ichillies, And for good measure I'll through in Me and Doodle Bug (The Boston Terrier ). Doodle may be the best example because he don't want anybody hitting anybody period and he always goes after the one doing the hitting. He will try to get me if I very causually tell him that my wife is " that's my Momma".

All this should be lots of fun so stay tuned.


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## Chris McDonald

Mike Scheiber said:


> You have no clue what you were watching if you did there wouldn't be a quote above.The only reference you have made about dog training is your dad's Schutzhund dog and some dog you purchased from some over priced dog shysters. Oh video of the dog you bought doing some circus tricks
> Go to youtube and search "Papillon circus dog" watch a Papillon out performing your Dutch on ladders, high wire and flaming hoop.
> Ya cant rip and laugh at dog trainers and there video when you still smell like piss.


 
You make good points here Mike I do agree with you on about 95% of it and I’m not ashamed to admit it! So you do or don’t think it’s bad training? Or do you believe the man on bottom thing?


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## Gillian Schuler

Sure I'll stay tuned in \\/


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## Dan Long

Robin Gan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I did muzzle work with my students (security dog handlers) recently and we never had a third party to handle someone else's dogs. The dogs will learn to accept command from the person holding the leash which resulted it going for his own handler.
> 
> I guessed good bonding and correct setting for training is the key.
> 
> http://www.real-k9.com/Protection Training.html ( go to muzzle attack to watch video)


That video is typical attack on handler stuff and the dogs reacted as expected. When you push down the handler and run away, that puts the dog pretty much in full prey mode. Have you tried doing what was done in the 1st video in this thread, and have the handler go to the ground with the bad guy and be on the losing end of the fight? 

This is a very interesting topic and I can't wait to see Jerry's video when he posts it. Then we can discuss how to train this to have the dog go after the bad guy and not the handler if the handler is knocked down.


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## Erik Berg

As someone mentioned before, could this not just be a case of the dogs are making an association between muzzlework and going for the man that is on the gorund, they are used to the situation when a man is rolling around on the ground when doing muzzlework, therefore goes for the man on the ground. I mean, some decoy their own dogs when training on the routines in a sport, the dogs know that in that particular situation it´s OK to bite the handler, it´s just a part of the routine.


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## Frenk Delacroix

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Frank, have you ever done this scenario before ? ? ? ?


Please answer my question first. In fact I find the result very interesting and thought provoking. 

I wonder only if someone can address this issue from the side of real world experience. If not, then not. But I think a bit of skepticism, such as others have displayed, is not out of place.

On the other hand, if this is identified as a real world phenomenon among K9 professionals, then I think everyone will be interested to learn more about that. I know I will.

Btw, if you can't answer the question, the best response is no response.

-Frenk (note spelling)


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## Robin Gan

Dan Long said:


> That video is typical attack on handler stuff and the dogs reacted as expected. When you push down the handler and run away, that puts the dog pretty much in full prey mode. Have you tried doing what was done in the 1st video in this thread, and have the handler go to the ground with the bad guy and be on the losing end of the fight?
> 
> This is a very interesting topic and I can't wait to see Jerry's video when he posts it. Then we can discuss how to train this to have the dog go after the bad guy and not the handler if the handler is knocked down.


Dan,

You have a point there. I will try and create the same scenario as in the 1st video.


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## Frenk Delacroix

Chris Michalek said:


> I wonder if it would be different in a REAL situation. In the seminar there was no tension and it looked more like play. Perhaps the dog can sense the difference?


My point exactly.


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## Jerry Lyda

We had a thing at training awhile back, this is what happened.
The dog was on a long down doing a protection of the handler excercise. The handler,Travis Sharp- (dog Reba), was accidently put to the ground. I'm not sure if he sliped or the decoy pushed to hard. He was on his hands and knees, Reba came to his defence, launched off of his back and bit the decoy in mid air. I wish we had that on video.


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## Matthew Grubb

Frank... This issue was re-created because of real world experience. Handlers were finding themselves on the bottom of a fround fight... being assaulted.... when they were deploying their dogs with their door poppers they were getting hit by their own dogs. 

Point of the training.... take the pain.... get up.... get the bad guy down.


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## jay lyda

*Re: First Ever WDF Training Challenge…*

Travis went down on purpose. I told him that I wanted to take him to the ground to beat on him and Reba would have her chance to react. She did. He was on his hands and knees as I was strking him and Reba launched off his back. We had tried this previously with Ichilles except that he jumped completly over me to bite the decoy. I know this is a little different then the videos but this way worked. I see that the old man has gotten me in a battle with hiim.







It should be fun. We'll give it a shot and post it when we have it completed. Im looking forward to it.


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## Chris McDonald

Mike Scheiber said:


> You have no clue what you were watching if you did there wouldn't be a quote above.The only reference you have made about dog training is your dad's Schutzhund dog and some dog you purchased from some over priced dog shysters. Oh video of the dog you bought doing some circus tricks
> Go to youtube and search "Papillon circus dog" watch a Papillon out performing your Dutch on ladders, high wire and flaming hoop.
> Ya cant rip and laugh at dog trainers and there video when you still smell like piss.


Mike can you give me a link to the “[FONT='Tahoma','sans-serif']Papillon circus dog” clip you are speaking of I can’t seem to find it. As you mentioned I do like that sort of circus stuff and would like to see it. [/FONT]
[FONT='Tahoma','sans-serif']thanks [/FONT]


----------



## David Scholes

jay lyda said:


> Travis went down on purpose. I told him that I wanted to take him to the ground to beat on him and Reba would have her chance to react. .... I know this is a little different then the videos but this way worked....


I assume you mean by a little different that the decoy was wearing a sleave or bite suit?

VERY interesting subject. I've noticed this behavior in rough/pretend play with past dogs I've owned (not protection trained). I'm very anxious to see if this can really be completely trained away. I tend to think I'd better just stay up. None of that Gracie jujitsu stuff in front of the dog.


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## Kristen Cabe

> On the street, the decoy doesn’t try to target the dog or become a more appealing prey than the downed handler.




On the street, would the bad guy not immediately take that opportunity (cop on ground) to make a run for it, rather than standing there beating on him knowing there was a K9 in the car? 



...

I guess it would depend on the bad guy and what the offense was.


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## Jerry Lyda

Kristen, I quess that would depend on how much crack he's had.

( They are not to smart )


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## Matthew Grubb

Kristen Cabe said:


> On the street, would the bad guy not immediately take that opportunity (cop on ground) to make a run for it, rather than standing there beating on him knowing there was a K9 in the car?
> [/font][/color]


 
If they did.. there would be a lot less dead officers every year. The real bad people out there don’t care about weather or not you have a dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It's interesting how people will cling to their beliefs. PPD people prefer their own reality, which is that they need protection from the boogey man.

Jerry, set the video up exactly the same. Just don't have your bad guys all do what the last guy did, as that is cheating. LOL

Lot of pink rabbits starting to disappear for some people. Lets see who keeps their pet rabbits.

Frank, Frink, you don't have a dog right???? Get a dog and maybe I will spell your name right. Probably not though.


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## Matthew Grubb

Jeff... I never noticed that movement of the decoy at the last second. Thanks for pointing that out... that changed everyting.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Your welcome. :-D 

Back in the stone ages, when we had to figure stuff out for ourselves, we video taped everything. We learned not to always watch the dog. It's not that we figured that out right away or anything:-\" ](*,) 

Took us awhile before we started noticing that the dog would be correct, when WE were correct.

Now days, you just get Mike Ellis, or Ivan, or whoever and they show you the correct way from the start. Not sure that it is better, but less time consuming for sure.=D> =D> =D> 

The "seminar" industry has definately helped a lot of people get farther faster and better.


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## Chris Keister

I have preached this scenario for several years on many dog boards and been crucified and told I am a complete idiot. Unfortunately I never had video to back it up. I have seen or participated in this scenario well over 100 times. 

When I have done this, we do it as a traffic stop @ night. Results are almost 100% The dog will bite the person on the ground. I think I have seen a dog bite the bad guy maybe 10 times. These dogs were either trained for the scenario, or not very strong dogs. 

Dog's go after the weakest link. It is instinctual.

Glad to see this here with video. If people can get past the fairy tale of their dogs never biting them, they will be smarter,better, and safer handlers.


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## Jennifer Coulter

I took the challenge!

I remember a post on another board a long time ago about people saying that their dog protects them (dog gets agitated to various degrees) when the humans were engaging in horseplay with each other. My recollection was that these were not trained dogs, mostly pets, but it was a while ago.

I thought that this stuff is NOT really about the dog protecting you, but more about it being stimulated somehow, call it prey, instinctual whatever. I think many claimed that their untrained dogs always targetted the correct person. I wondered if my dog was just a little dumber than most, as he would not always target the agressor in a human play fight. Depended on the circumstance.

SO...glad to see my dog is perhaps NOT dumber than most.  

Here is my non protection trained, floppy eared dog in Matt's recreated scenario. No muzzle used as he has been taught not to bite people, mostly  First take:

http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/farwesttoller/?action=view&current=MOV02161.flv


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris McDonald said:


> You make good points here Mike I do agree with you on about 95% of it and I’m not ashamed to admit it! So you do or don’t think it’s bad training? Or do you believe the man on bottom thing?


I am some what miffed by the dogs reactions I am by no means saying I really know but I cant believe all these dogs are shitters. The cops obviously haven't trained for this scenario especially listing to there banter in the back round. So my guess is basic instinct reaction. I am also miffed that something like this isn't common knowledge among the K9 police community. I'm a sport guy I don't train like they do. I tell you what if a training flaw/character flaw or what ever this big cropped up in the Schutzhund community it would be monumental.
I'm staying tuned to see if the cops are able to train dependably to squelch it.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Mike Scheiber said:


> I tell you what if a training flaw/character flaw or what ever this big cropped up in the Schutzhund community it would be monumental.


That's funny, I was just going to ask what people would think a purely sport trained dog would do in this situation.

I think they would behave the same way Jennifers dog did, maybe not all but the majority would. I'm waiting to see what the PPD dogs do.


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That's funny, I was just going to ask what people would think a purely sport trained dog would do in this situation.


I think Al Curbow was going to be checking on that. Doesn't look like he has posted today hope he's OK


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## Kevin Powell

For a long time, people were telling others that the world was round but no one would believe them. It took Columbus to sail around the world without falling off to actually PROVE that this was true. Well, for a long time I have heard people telling others about this exact scenario and now here is the PROOF that it does happen. Perhaps not all the time, (we’re still awaiting video proof this) but it does happen a lot. Many of the posts above seem to still be debating if this happens or not. It does, watch the video. The question I have at this point is this: Can this be remedied by training to the point of being able to trust your dog in this type of scenario or are the primal instincts of the dog going to come out and have him attack the subject in the submissive position more often than not. What are the thoughts on this?


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## Jerry Lyda

The movement on the bad guy in the last video. Can someone tell me what the bad guy will be doing so that I can do what he does? Will he calmly walk up to the handler and just hit him, will he talk loud to the handler, will he run up to the handler, will he wave his arms as the last video shows, will he get into a shoving match with the handler? All the above? Will he even try to run away before the handler catches him?

I need to know what to present on a video. I said that I would duplicate the videos that was posted and that's what I'll do. I saw two different types. Officer being knocked on his butt from a passive bad guy and another from an animated bad guy. To make it even harder for me, I'll have the dog in a car with a window down that he will have to jump through. This will take the advantage away that the police video showed. ( the guys pumping the dogs up before the send ).


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## Chris Michalek

This is NO test in my book. There simply isn't the correct energy behind the attack. I think dogs react to energy more than what they see. It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the handler is not really being attacked. Why do we think the dog can't sense the same thing?

A few weeks ago, I had an incident outside my front door. While I was not on the ground my dog came to my aid and without hesitation he dished out two bites. Maybe it would be different if I was really getting hammered instead of having my shirt pulled. Maybe it would have been different if I were on the ground but to me it seemed as if the dog knew what he was doing.


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## Bob Scott

I know nothing about real world bite traing but how much of this can be attributed to the dog always, or often winning by taking the bad guy down during training. Most of the dog's success and reward is with the guy on the ground. Not the guy still on his feet. Is the dog unconsioulsy be being trained to a particular picture by the handler and trainier? 
There was a reality video on TV awhile back where a K9's handler was fighting with the badguy. Both were on the ground (handler more so) but the dog stayed on the bad guy. Biting more clothes then bad guy but if I recall correctly, the comment was made that the dog was a detection dog and wasn't bite trained. 
Maybe this dog just didn't see "the guy on the ground" as a reward!
Just a thought! 
I wont go into my thoughts on heavy handed training creating handler aggerssive dogs and the dog finally gettin his chance. :-# :lol: :wink:


----------



## Frenk Delacroix

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Frank, Frink, you don't have a dog right???? Get a dog and maybe I will spell your name right. Probably not though.


I know that spelling isn't the USMC strong suit, but perhaps a bit of basic respect for others wouldn't be out of place, even for a jarhead.


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## David Scholes

Don't dogs relate to people because of their instinct to belong to a pack? So essentially aren't we just pack members normally and hopefully viewed by the dog as being above them in the pack hierarchy?

It seems I've read other threads on this board about two dogs fighting and the other dogs jumping in on the losing dog, sometimes killing it. I know the book by Jack London, Call of the Wild is fiction but is this behavior described in the second chapter (see text below) something that happens in a dog pack? When we are down on the bottom, why should we be viewed differently than a dog that is at the bottom of the pile? 

This seems to be a very ingrained instinct and I'm really curious to know if it can be reliably extinguished with training. I'm thinking not by the lack of response and continuing denial. 

"Buck understands that he has been taken from civilization into a wild, primitive place, and his first day in the North is extremely unpleasant. Both the dogs and the men around him are cruel and violent, and Buck is shocked to see the way the wolfish dogs fight. Buck's traveling companion, a female dog named Curly, approaches a husky in a friendly way, but the husky attacks her immediately, ripping her face open. Thirty or forty other huskies approach, and Curly lunges at her assailant. She tumbles off her feet, and the other dogs rush in, trampling her. The men come and fight off the dogs with clubs and an ax. Only two minutes have passed, but Curly is lying dead and bloody on the ground. Buck realizes that to survive in this world, he will have to make sure that he never goes down in a fight. He also decides that he hates Spitz, who seems to be laughing at Curly's fate."


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## Milton Burton

I have saw several videos in In-service where the handler goes down(K9 Officers) in the fight and let the dog out with the remote. The bad guy freezes just as in the video and the dog bites the handler. 

I have also seen one where the handler is taken down and the bad guy runs and dog goes after the bad guy. 


In instance when bad guy keeps fighting handler and dog is released. Bad guy tried to attack dog so dog engaged bad guy.

My Lt. says don't let them get you down. If you are down your dog will bite you but should stop when you yell at his butt and send him to the bad guy. 


It is the nature of a dog to get the loser. 


This may sound crazy to some but if you are on the streets and your back is on the ground, and you have a good dog you will probably be bitten. Cuss the dog and tell him to get the other guy, thats where your training comes in.


Or would you rather have a dog that runs down stops to acess the situation then bite the bad guy. This is not the dog you want on the streets when your life is on the line because if he hesitates to bite in this situation he will hesitate in others and that could cost you the ultimate price. That's just the way I see it. 

IT PAYS TO BE A WINNER


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## Jeff Oehlsen

QUOTE: I know that spelling isn't the USMC strong suit, but perhaps a bit of basic respect for others wouldn't be out of place, even for a jarhead.

Marines don't like slimey civilians. They are weak and unfit to live in the world unless we keep it safe for them.

I wouldn't ask for the Marine version of me. 

If you asked me what was best in life, I quoted Conan the Barbarian.

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women. I believed that shit strong.

Took a while to get as nice as I am now.


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## Gillian Schuler

Going down is one of the worst things I could imagine - here in my mind you can lose control and the first thing I would do would be to give my dog a command suitable to the situation "attack", platz or whatever so that he knows I'm still in command.

Going down is for me a signal to the dog that we are equal or worse! Alone I wouldn't be frightened of my dog biting me but I'm sure he'd see it as a signal to rough house.

In our working trials first level there was no biting element as such but we had to walk through a wood with the dog on the lead and suddenly someone jumped out at us and raised a stick to the handler. This was later replaced with a biting exercise as in Schutzhund but in the original exercise if the handler was pushed down (always assuming the assailant could get past the dog to do it) I'd take my bet that the dog would attack the assailant or have to find a new home [-o< 

It was said that the dogs weren't given a command by the chap holding them but in the video one of the dogs being held was definitely physically stimulated.

If it was such an important exercise why wasn't someone commentating it - if he could have got the "interested" spectators to shut up first?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Gillian, this exercise is to show K9 handlers the weaknesses of using a dog.

If you think that your dog would get a new home, I think you might never find another dog.

Set up the exercise the way you see in the video, and try it.


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## Gillian Schuler

Gee and I thought it was to show weak k9 handlers the use of the dog :roll: 

I never mentioned *my* dogs - they won't be leaving home :-D 

Quote "Set up the exercise the way you see it in the video" Unquote Now why should I do that?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

From what you were saying, my bet is that your dogs would be leaving home.

Quote: I'd take my bet that the dog would attack the assailant or have to find a new home [-o< 

That is why I would love to see the video.:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Gillian Schuler

Why don't you go back and read my post. This was a number of years ago. The exercise has been replaced by a biting exercise, *as I said*. In my second to last post I was talking about dogs in general, not mine.

But the dog I had then went for the chap threatening me with the stick and I was able to call him off.

No video - but no bluff either.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Uh, this thread is about the dog choosing to attack the guy on the bottom, even if it is the handler.

Who cares if your dog wasn't bluffing in a completely off topic situation ????

Remember, the topic is this: In the situation where the handler is taken to the ground and the dog is sent to help, HE DOESN'T HELP HE HINDERS BY BITING THE HANDLER.

The muzzle is used for safety. These are police dogs, pretty sure that they have proven they will bite.


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## Matthew Grubb

Gillian Schuler said:


> If it was such an important exercise why wasn't someone commentating it - if he could have got the "interested" spectators to shut up first?


Gillian... There was a lot more than the 2 mins you saw... And there was quite a bit of commentary.. And actually lecture too... But that's all hush hush.. You didn't pay to attend! (Wink).


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## Phil Dodson

> Bob if you are referring to the K-9 video of the Alabama officer who ended up shooting the bad guy, yes the dog in the video was only narcotics trained.

> Phil


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Uh, this thread is about the dog choosing to attack the guy on the bottom, even if it is the handler.
> 
> Who cares if your dog wasn't bluffing in a completely off topic situation ????
> 
> Remember, the topic is this: In the situation where the handler is taken to the ground and the dog is sent to help, HE DOESN'T HELP HE HINDERS BY BITING THE HANDLER.
> 
> The muzzle is used for safety. These are police dogs, pretty sure that they have proven they will bite.


From what I saw, one of them was stimulated and the dogs were not sent, it was said the chap holding them back was neutral and didn't give a command so how does the dog perceive what he has to do - his "picture" is two men on the ground wrestling? Probably an experienced police handler could envisage the outcome without watching the video.


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## Gillian Schuler

Matthew Grubb said:


> Gillian... There was a lot more than the 2 mins you saw... And there was quite a bit of commentary.. And actually lecture too... But that's all hush hush.. You didn't pay to attend! (Wink).


I just hope it was worth the money :wink: :wink: :wink:


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## Matthew Grubb

Gillian Schuler said:


> I just hope it was worth the money :wink: :wink: :wink:


Day and night tactical problems, tactical building entries, K9 deployment for felony car stops, live fire training, deployment in chemical munitions, German muzzle philosophies and techniques, legal updates, criminal psychological profiles, tactical tracking, imprinting on hard surface tracking. 

Classroom events include lectures on liability concerns, K9 Officer Safety, training techniques and problem solving ideas…. Not to mention what all the explosive dog people were doing….. oh yes, it was well worth it!


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## Mike Scheiber

So Matthew have you been able to solve or have a training solution? if so details


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris McDonald said:


> Mike can you give me a link to the “[FONT='[LEFT][COLOR=red][FONT=serif][B][U]Tahoma[/U][/B][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=red][FONT=serif][B][U][/U][/B][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=red][FONT=serif][B][U][/U][/B][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=red][FONT=serif][B][U]Papillon[/U][/B][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=red][FONT=serif][B][U][/U][/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]/font][/COLOR]
> [COLOR=black][FONT='[LEFT][COLOR=red][FONT=serif][B][U][/U][/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]'sans-serif']thanks [/font]


I tried looking for it also my wife showed it to me shortly after I viewed your video of your dog that I was impressed with.
I asked her today where or how she found it and she said it was forwarded to her by email and deleted a wile ago. 
But after watching the video of the Pappillon it made me think of your dog's video it was very similar only at the circus. Watching a Pappillon doing death defying tricks took the wind out of your dogs video fore me. Just reminded me its all just conditioning and dog training.


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## Lyn Chen

Just a question. All these dogs are males, and their handlers are males, correct?


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## Mo Earle

for some of you non-believers, my dog Chico, as I said before, was coming right for me, actually he almost nailed me in the ribs, but the decoy( who was NOT in a suit, did not have a sleeve or any equipment for the dog to target on) was able to deflect his direction. Of course Chico was in a muzzle and had experience with muzzle fighting. For those who know Chico, know he is a "for real dog"-and prefers to bite for real and avoid the equipment. Was it because the dog does not respect me- I would like to say, I don't think so -I have worked with him doing security work, I have competed him, and he is easy to handle, and I have never hit,struck or abused the dog, so it wasn't his time to get me back. Was it bad training?- I don't think it was that either- least not ALL of his training was bad.... Gatorland's Chico 11 has had a ton of experience and lots of training- was it that the dog focused on the one on the ground, because I was losing, or that is what the dog is used to going after-which ever one, I would have to say yes. It was easy to fix, and now we train our dogs, to go after the aggressor. But if any of you people have a truly strong dog, be aware, you may be bitten if you are not prepared for this response.I was glad this Decoy pointed the possibility of this occurring to me, and I am very glad I was able to become the owner of Chico..... Mo


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## Mo Earle

Lyn, I don't know about the handlers and dogs in the video, but my dog Chico is a male belg. malinois and I am definately not male.O Mo


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## Chase Mika

> I hate to believe these are cop dogs but if they were where they allowed back on the street? If so why? Is this an acceptable standard; if these are acceptable to police k9s something is real wrong.


I've seen the same thing happen many times with police k9's. I'd say that about 95%+ of the K9's I've seen and trained with in this scenario go after the handler. For us, I couldn't say whether it was instinct or training, because it's always a scenario that's done after the basic muzzle training. I would suspect it's at least caused in part by training. Whenever I've seen police k9 muzzle training done, it starts with very basic work and as soon as the dog makes contact with the decoy, the decoy goes to ground and the dog has won and the fight continues. Same thing in bitework on visible/hidden sleeves...scenarios most often end with the bad guy being on the ground when the dog ultimately wins or is removed from the sleeve. It's just a matter of repetition....if someone is already on the ground, the step of getting them there has just been skipped for the dog.

I think it can be trained for, but obviously you'd still want to vary it. The training that was showed in the videos just continued to teach the dog to go for the person on the ground....the handler/decoy just switched around real fast (or sometimes slow). When I've trained with other k9's, we've waited til the dog engaged the standing bad guy before he went to the ground; or had the bad guy take off running; or whatever else you can come up with. The key has been to vary it and change it up and let the dog realize that it's not always the person on the ground. 

I've also made sure to try to make it easier for my k9 to identify me when he's approaching. It's easier to curl up into a ball and wait for impact, but I know my dog learned faster when he could recognize me as he was coming in. It was like a light bulb went off in his head, then he went for the bad guy...never fully engaged me. And I went beyond just "get him," to include calling the dog to me, using his name, etc., to get that recognition. Obviously over time, you'd take that out more and more cause you wouldn't be able to focus on the dog like that if you were in a real fight on the street. But it can be a training progression and my experience has been that it's trainable...just takes some time and switching things up. Hopefully the rest of the video that wasn't shown included training where the dog engaged the bad guy while he was still standing up...otherwise the dog hasn't learned much.


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## Bob Scott

Phil Dodson said:


> > Bob if you are referring to the K-9 video of the Alabama officer who ended up shooting the bad guy, yes the dog in the video was only narcotics trained.
> 
> > Phil


That's the one Phil. Thanks!
Any thoughts on my uneducated thought about it being an unwillingly trained response? The dog always/often wins with the guy on the ground?
I have seen formerly agreeable dogs go after the old and weak in a pack, but that's dogs on dogs. Not always the same. 
Again, mine is just an uneducated thought on what I see.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Chase,

Thanks for a very good explanation. It's not that I don't want to believe but I was not the only one who thought the dogs were confused. The "picture" wasn't clear to them in my mind. I also wondered why the first dog was stimulated before going in? The others weren't shown. Was this due to timing between the men fighting on the ground and the dog being let go?


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## jay lyda

Ok, so I finally got to watch this video. Are you serious? This is our challenge........Too easy. Im going to even throw this in. My dog Ichilles has never had a muzzle on and I will not put one on him until we actually do this scenario. It will be filmed so everyone can see the results. First time muzzle on, no equipment, same scenario. Oh man, this is going to be fun and too easy. It will be interesting to see Ichilles' reaction.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

jay lyda said:


> Travis went down on purpose. I told him that I wanted to take him to the ground to beat on him and Reba would have her chance to react. She did. He was on his hands and knees as I was strking him and Reba launched off his back. We had tried this previously with Ichilles except that he jumped completly over me to bite the decoy. I know this is a little different then the videos but this way worked. I see that the old man has gotten me in a battle with hiim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It should be fun. We'll give it a shot and post it when we have it completed. Im looking forward to it.


 


jay lyda said:


> Ok, so I finally got to watch this video. Are you serious? This is our challenge........Too easy. Im going to even throw this in. My dog Ichilles has never had a muzzle on and I will not put one on him until we actually do this scenario. It will be filmed so everyone can see the results. First time muzzle on, no equipment, same scenario. Oh man, this is going to be fun and too easy. It will be interesting to see Ichilles' reaction.


You finally got to see the video ??


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## jay lyda

Yes. I knew from the description what was done, I just hadn't seen "how" it was performed. Luckily I am getting a new computer in 2 wks because I can't see youtube at the house or do certain other things so I have to do what I can't at home at work. Here lately I haven't had a lot of time to sit at work and watch videos. So yes, I finally got to see the video. It just wasn't what I thought it was going to be from all the talk. Hopefully we will be able to make some better ones for everyone. :mrgreen:


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## Jerry Lyda

Looks as if this weekend we can made the videos. I told Jay this morning that we will do it like this. 1- The dog will be in a down stay with NO help from anyone behind him. 2- He will be put in a car with the window down. He will have to come out of the car to get the bite.


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## Howard Knauf

Hi Matthew,
I thought for sure I had brought this up before but it was here instead....http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/193533/page/0/fpart/1.

Your video shows exactly what I was talking about. It got more responses than my thread too. Bottom line is that this is instinctual behavour that can be altered with training. It doesn't matter what venue you work your dog, everyone should train for it.

When I train for it I use a car release via remote. No one else handles the dog. We don't do a down stay for the drill because the dog is taught handler protection obviously and will automatically break to defend the handler.

mods...if the link is agin the rules, please delete.

Howard


----------



## Matthew Grubb

Jerry Lyda said:


> Looks as if this weekend we can made the videos. I told Jay this morning that we will do it like this. 1- The dog will be in a down stay with NO help from anyone behind him. 2- He will be put in a car with the window down. He will have to come out of the car to get the bite.


Jerry... Please do it the same way, with a third party posting and releasing the dog. If you change things it won't be the same and will leave room to question caues and effect.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Matthew Grubb said:


> Jerry... Please do it the same way, with a third party posting and releasing the dog. If you change things it won't be the same and will leave room to question caues and effect.



I would like to see it both ways.


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## Gillian Schuler

Chris, me too - Jerry do it how you think fit!


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## Jerry Lyda

We will do it all three ways then. I wanted to do it with the dog in a down stay because that's control. I'm not saying all but most PSD don't have that kind of control.


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## Jerry Lyda

This is another thought. In the real PSD world, when would you have another officer hold your dog when you the handler would go to a perp? Wouldn't you both go? 

We will do it all three ways.


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## jay lyda

*Re: First Ever WDF Training Challenge…*



Howard Knauf said:


> Bottom line is that this is instinctual behavour that can be altered with training. It doesn't matter what venue you work your dog, everyone should train for it.


EXACTLY!! What a smart man. That is the same thing that I was telling dad this morning. There has been the same discussion before on this board. Some people rely on natural instinct and some don't. I for one do not, this as well as any other is a trained behavior and should over ride any instinct that the dog has. He does what he is trained to do, its as simple as that. The dogs in the vid obviously were not, but very well should be. Its not that they can't but should. Just because someone has a badge does not mean they are invincible, EVERY scenario should be trained for in case it happens on the street. If I were on the street this is exactly what I need to know, does my partner really have my back. Its our job as trainers to ensure that they do.


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## Matthew Grubb

Jerry Lyda said:


> This is another thought. In the real PSD world, when would you have another officer hold your dog when you the handler would go to a perp? Wouldn't you both go?
> 
> We will do it all three ways.


 
Were talking about duplicating a training exercise….. lets not get carried away. Jerry… please first do the exercise as it was shown on the footage I put up. Then do whatever you want. 

I think what everyone will like to see is whatever steps you take to correct any issues you come across. THAT is where everyone will benefit.


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## jay lyda

*Re: First Ever WDF Training Challenge…*



Matthew Grubb said:


> I think what everyone will like to see is whatever steps you take to correct any issues you come across. THAT is where everyone will benefit.


You are right. This is not really about whos dog can do what and whos can't. This is a training forum so any help anyone can give to help each other over come training problems is the most important thing. We are all on the same side here with the same love for what we do. But if our dogs do flop, then we won't post the vid. Just kidding. Seriously though, we will be the first to admit that our dogs failed the test if they do. And if they do then we know what WE need to work on.


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## Jerry Lyda

Matthew, we will do as in video first with each dog. Then we will play. ;o)
We're not trying to prove that our dogs are better, not by a long shot. We just don't think that our dogs will bite us, I've been wrong before, once. LOL This is a very good training discussion. And this will be MUCH fun to do. I will try to incorperate it in APPDA as well, in higher levels. That's what the American Protection and Patrol Dog Assoc. is about. We want real life situations that the dogs HAVE to be trained in. If your dog passes appda then it's a great dog. I'm not saying that the other tests of other venues aren't good, we just want to be the best of real life tests.


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## Chris Michalek

Jerry Lyda said:


> Matthew, we will do as in video first with each dog. Then we will play. ;o)
> We're not trying to prove that our dogs are better, not by a long shot. We just don't think that our dogs will bite us, I've been wrong before, once. LOL This is a very good training discussion. And this will be MUCH fun to do. I will try to incorperate it in APPDA as well, in higher levels. That's what the American Protection and Patrol Dog Assoc. is about. We want real life situations that the dogs HAVE to be trained in. If your dog passes appda then it's a great dog. I'm not saying that the other tests of other venues aren't good, we just want to be the best of real life tests.



Any chance you guys can construct a figure of Howard or better yet, Jeff Oehlsen to see if the dogs will tear them limb from limb? :-D


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## Jack Martin

It toook me all morning to read the entire thread.Could we hurry up with the video now?:-\" Very interesting stuff.Can't wait to train on this. I have a very strong feeling my bitch would eat me up.She loves to play fight and always takes the side of the kids and my wife when we fool around in the house. Although true threat is different ,I never thought of the being in the down position in an attack scenario.


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## Chris Michalek

Jack Martin said:


> It toook me all morning to read the entire thread.Could we hurry up with the video now?:-\" Very interesting stuff.Can't wait to train on this. I have a very strong feeling my bitch would eat me up.She loves to play fight and always takes the side of the kids and my wife when we fool around in the house. Although true threat is different ,I never thought of the being in the down position in an attack scenario.



Do you think your dog would bite you for real? I have a hard time believing my dog would bite me for real but then again, I'm very reluctant to try.


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## Howard Knauf

Easy now!


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## Jack Martin

After reading this thread it does throw out the "I wonder" thoughts. I know she has gotton me several times when I play rough with her, and I know I asked for it, but I would yell in pain and she would come immediately ears down trying iin my mind to say sorry.Oh yea and it hurt and I bled.I provoked her but this is completely different from the scenario's this thread is leading too. However, the numbers seem to be overwhelmingly in the favor that most dogs are going to bite the man down.
The problem I have is if you are in it for real,not sure how many people have thrown down beofore,most fights go to the ground fairly quick in a tie up. We had all just better be on top when it goes to the ground from what I am reading.


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## Howard Knauf

Jack,

Not to worry, it is fixable. I've done it before with a few dogs. Once you understand what is the driving factor in this behavior it can be changed/modified. It's done on a daily basis with other types of training. I'm not saying every dog can be fixed, but the vast majority of dogs can be manipulated to do what you want. Every one I've worked with was fixed.


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## Howard Knauf

Excerpts from a thread I responded to reference this training....

 "I started a thread on another forum titled "Much ignored handler protection training". It addresses the dogs' natural instinct to attack the person at the bottom of the pile in a ground fight between handler and bad guy. In my experience with this specific drill on a number of police dogs, nearly all of them attacked the handler if they were on the bottom. It is something that can, and should be worked on for the handlers' safety.

There are handlers out there that truly believe their dog wont attack them. They are wrong. No matter how great your bond is with your dog you are still dealing with an instinctual behavour that needs to be altered, or reigned in. Not a big deal but it needs to be worked on. The main reason why this happens is (despite instinct) the dog is not thinking, or aware of what is going on. The dog is on autopilot when he sees the fight and is released from the car etc. so he blindly does what his instincts tell him to do...hit the weaker person on the bottom. Address the way he approaches these situations and you can fix the problem.

When it comes to ground fighting with a dog, I think it is a great idea. Obviously TOH, your Sch guy wasn't too bright. Live and learn eh? I love ground fighting work. I love to watch the dog dominate and gain confidence by using this exercise. Besides feeling the dogs' grip, the tail is the biggest cue to how the dog is handling the exercise. I don't always assume that just because the dog redirects to another body part that he is stressed or weak. I love when a dog does this on the street but not in training because I'm usually on the receiving end of the redirect. 

I started another thread a year or so ago talking about ground fighting and asked if redirecting the bite under extreme pressure was a sign of fight drive. I had varying responses from "The dog should never redirect" to.."KNPV dogs are taught to do this". My personal dogs would do this on the street and I didn't have a problem with it.....of course the bad guys did!

If you want to truly find out what your dog will do in such a situation, then the drill is different from the training....as usual.

To test the dogs' reaction to the situation we used a muzzle for obvious safety reasons. We started with the dog in the car and made a big show of confronting a suspect by yelling at to him from in the car. The dog is focused on the bad guy and watches us very closely as we exit the car and confront the bad guy. A heated argument ensues between handler and suspect, then a fight. The two go down and the handler ends up on the bottom. The dog is in a frenzy at the sight of this because of all the handler protection work and when the dog is released via remote door opener the dog charges out.

When the dog exits the vehicle he momentarily loses sight of the people and when he hits the ground he's running to the fight. A dog not trained for this specific scenario has no direct focus on what is happening and his natural instincts take over....bad news for the handler if he's on the bottom.

To fix the issue we did low energy ground fighting with the dog on the tie back (no muzzle). The handler is involved in the fight on the ground but begins on top, then as the training progresses the handler ends up on the bottom. This gives the dog a look at whats going on so he keeps his focus and actually has to think about what is going on as well as using his eyes and ears. The helper is in the full suit.

The move to the vehicle brings the dog to the muzzle. We do the above scenario I first described but very low energy. Dont want to hype the dog up too much. We want him watching and thinking about what he's doing instead of reacting instinctually. As the training progresses we bring more intensity into the training to slowly proof the dog. At the end, during a full blown incident you will see the dog charge out out of the vehicle full speed but there is an obvious difference in his body language. Instead of being in a full prey run you will see the dog with the head up high and obviously looking for the correct target before engaging. Its a dramatic difference.

Because this is handler protection training. I use no physical corrections at all. If the training is progressed correctly you will barely need anything more than voice corrections. If the dog is messing up, use the decoy to step up his resistance/attack to redirect the dog where he needs to go. High praise is given when he does the right thing. Depending on the dog, it may be a slow process or quick. Obviously maintenance training has to be done."

Hope this helps.

Matthew, did the guys in the video work to fix the problem? If so, how did they approach it?

Howard


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## Matt Hammond

Jerry, Jay and I will do this and have it posted Saturday. We will do it all three ways with three different dogs. 

IMO, and Ed argued this same issue, is the dogs is going towards movement. The more movement, the more interesting. I have done this with my old Male Mal and he went for me the first time, once I was told what the deal was, I made the adjustment and he went to the decoy. Movement. We can argue and post dog instint, truth is no one really knows why a dog does this, but if the handler is not rushing to get up then he does not get bit........movement!!


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## Howard Knauf

Matt Hammond said:


> Jerry, Jay and I will do this and have it posted Saturday. We will do it all three ways with three different dogs.
> 
> IMO, and Ed argued this same issue, is the dogs is going towards movement. The more movement, the more interesting. I have done this with my old Male Mal and he went for me the first time, once I was told what the deal was, I made the adjustment and he went to the decoy. Movement. We can argue and post dog instint, truth is no one really knows why a dog does this, but if the handler is not rushing to get up then he does not get bit........movement!!


 Hi Matt,

Because PSDs and PPDs have a specific, and serious duty I'm not going to assume that movement (or lack thereof) is the way to fix this. Lets assume we don't know why dogs do this...what we do know is that they do and it's a serious problem. If "m getting my ass kicked by a bad guy, the last thing I'm going to do is cease movement in hopes the dog targets the right person. If you're training for a sport and points then by all means use whatever shortcut method you want to score high.

When I fixed this problem I taught the dog that it is a team effort and that all parties involved will be put into all sorts of different postures. That includes the handler being under the pile. Yes, initially you can use some movement to get the dog to target the decoy if need be, but to completely rely on movement for success on the street is foolish. The street is not a sterile training field and anything can happen. I want the dog THINKING, LOOKING and EVALUATING the situation before reacting, not reaction stimulated by movement. I could give a bunch of scenarios where the movement can be just as dangerous as being passive if you are the police officer. Just saying..

I am looking forward to you training videos though.

Howard


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## Jerry Lyda

This is my take on why the problem exists to begin with.

In muzzle fighting the dog hits and the perp goes to the ground. This is what caused the problem. In the videos the dog has a muzzle on and right away it's equipment and the way he's been trained. He goes for the guy, whoever is on the ground. He see's it as training and the fun way he has always done this excercise. So the problem was created through training. The idea with the dog going for the underdog I don't buy. It's a training issue period. Only one of the dogs that we will video has ever had a muzzle on. I will use him ( Bentley ) in a video without a muzzle, the decoy will wear a hidden sleeve. I am betting that he will not bite me but will bite the decoy. He won't get there fast because he is older, but that's my bet.

The way to fix this or to stop this behavior before it is a problem is don't let the dog fight the decoy on the ground, never. The dog can and will get the same satisfaction fighting the decoy standing up. The reason for fighting the decoy on the ground is to build confidence in the dog. If the dog has confidence then why do it?

Again I truly believe this is a training problem from get go.


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## David Scholes

Jerry Lyda said:


> This is my take on why the problem exists to begin with.
> 
> In muzzle fighting the dog hits and the perp goes to the ground. This is what caused the problem. In the videos the dog has a muzzle on and right away it's equipment and the way he's been trained. He goes for the guy, whoever is on the ground. He see's it as training and the fun way he has always done this excercise. So the problem was created through training. The idea with the dog going for the underdog I don't buy. It's a training issue period. Only one of the dogs that we will video has ever had a muzzle on. I will use him ( Bentley ) in a video without a muzzle, the decoy will wear a hidden sleeve. I am betting that he will not bite me but will bite the decoy. He won't get there fast because he is older, but that's my bet.
> 
> The way to fix this or to stop this behavior before it is a problem is don't let the dog fight the decoy on the ground, never. The dog can and will get the same satisfaction fighting the decoy standing up. The reason for fighting the decoy on the ground is to build confidence in the dog. If the dog has confidence then why do it?
> 
> Again I truly believe this is a training problem from get go.


I hope you don't get bit. You do have much more experience than me but I'm betting instinct. Sometimes years of experience are based on judgments that are not true. Hopefully I am wrong. Too make things equal you should also have a hidden sleeve in case the dog can identify it, IMO. Looking forward to the video but I'm feeling kind of guilty like a spectator of a roman gladiator event (should feel).


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## Gillian Schuler

Let me swerve here. What would happen if the dog were running free, far more likely to happen in real life - and a nutter turned up and tried to attack the handler? My bet is that the dog would go for the "intruder" even if he pushed the handler to the ground. Here, he sees what's happening and can act. He can't think and select (I don't buy this) but he has a clear picture of what is happening.

I'm not delusional - I wouldn't put my money on my dog saving me.

My problem is with the dog being held and, in one case, stimulated, and the time between being let loose. How's the dog going to identify me from afar unless I tell him I'm the one in the pink tutu??? I could call "Fuss" which could clear the matter?? Screaming would probably confuse things but if I call out a clear command it could work????

I'm just interested


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## Gregory Doud

The way to fix this or to stop this behavior before it is a problem is don't let the dog fight the decoy on the ground, never. The dog can and will get the same satisfaction fighting the decoy standing up. The reason for fighting the decoy on the ground is to build confidence in the dog. If the dog has confidence then why do it?

*** If you train without the dog believing he can't take the decoy to the ground no matter how hard he punches with the muzzle, then I think that's a problem also. I don't think an experienced canine should take the agitator to the ground on every single hit, but if he really strikes hard and attempts to take the helper to the floor then it should be acknowledged. Besides, most apprehensions on the street end up with the "bad guy" on the ground. LEO's need to train for this so the dog and handler are prepared for ground fighting and the tactics involved.

In muzzle fighting the dog hits and the perp goes to the ground. This is what caused the problem.

*** I agree, with an experienced canine, the decoy should not go to the floor just because he was hit. I think that to always go to the ground with an initial strike is not teaching the dog to really fight properly 
with the muzzle. In the _beginning_ of teaching muzzle agitation, the canine should be rewarded with his initial efforts of striking with the muzzle by the agitator going to the ground and battling him like he is on fire. But, not with an experienced dog. A good rule of thumb is probably less than 40% of the time. You can use training scenarios where the dog does a find and bark with a passive decoy on the ground, then stands up to fight or flee from the dog (scratch it if the department only has a find and bite canine). That way the canine doesn't always learn to fight with the agitator on the floor. But, this is an entirely different training scenario than the one shown on this thread.

In the videos the dog has a muzzle on and right away it's equipment and the way he's been trained.

*** I agree, the muzzle is a piece of equipment just like a sleeve, body-bite suit, or hidden sleeve/suit 
is. The best thing to do is desensitive the canine to the muzzle so he doesn't think protection work every time he wears it. But, no matter how you well you desensitive the canine to the muzzle, it's a piece of equipment just like everything else. However, with that said, it is the only way to really teach a dog to really fight the man without the agitator wearing any protective equipment off lead that is safe for the agitator.

Just my two cents. - Greg


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## Dan Long

Has anyone thought about handler/dog bonding in these situations? Most of the time a police dog hasn't been raised by his handler. If he's 18 or more months old by the time he gets assigned to his handler, and that handler has only had him for a few months, they won't have the kind of bond that someone might have with a dog they raised and trained since it was a young pup. It'd be interesting to see the reaction of a dog that has been raised by it's handler, if it would still go after the handler the way the dogs in the video did. If Jerry, Jay and Matt are using dogs for their experiment that they have raised from pups, that might be the difference. I think you could also consider the bond of a house dog vs a dog that is kenneled except for when it's working- the house dog might have a stronger bond, and that bond might make a difference in how the dog sees the situation when his handler goes to the ground and he joins in the fight.


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## David Scholes

Gregory Doud said:


> The way to fix this or to stop this behavior before it is a problem is don't let the dog fight the decoy on the ground, never. The dog can and will get the same satisfaction fighting the decoy standing up. The reason for fighting the decoy on the ground is to build confidence in the dog. If the dog has confidence then why do it?...


Instead, how about having the dog get used to the handler being on the ground and giving commands while on the ground? Maybe the dog has NEVER seen the handler being in control while on the ground and may not recognize the handler while wound up in drive. Puppies love to get their playmates down and maul them for fun... just natural as soon as they start to play... which is practice for real fighting.


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## Jerry Lyda

Dan, Bentley I got when he was 2 1/2 years old. He will be 11 years in April which is a lot of bonding time. His age has slowed him down but not his bite. HE BITES HARD. Ichilles Jay got when Ichilles was around 18 months, Jay can correct me if I'm off here. Lexus I got when she was three months old. I'm not real sure with this but I think Travis got Reba when she was 8 maybe 9 months old.

That's pretty much the take on that so the dogs were different ages when coming to these handlers.


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## Gillian Schuler

Jerry - are you tipping off the bonding of the dogs here by saying how long they've been with you???


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## Matt Hammond

When cops are in training they are taught that if you get knocked down get back up as quick as you can. The handler is moving more frantic then the decoy, IMO this is what is drawing the dog the handler. 

Way to much over thinking involved here.


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## Jerry Lyda

I'm being honest. How old are most PSD when they go to a handler? Around 2 years old. They will stay with that handler until the handler is moved to another dept etc........The dog then will go to another handler. A lot less bonding time for the next handler. Bonding is a very important part in this but proper training is the key.


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## Gillian Schuler

Once again Jerry, are you saying "bonding" is the answer????


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## Lyn Chen

Gillian Schuler said:


> Once again Jerry, are you saying "bonding" is the answer????


Why not?


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## Howard Knauf

David Scholes said:


> Instead, how about having the dog get used to the handler being on the ground and giving commands while on the ground? Maybe the dog has NEVER seen the handler being in control while on the ground and may not recognize the handler while wound up in drive. .


Bingo. For the record...if you introduce the muzzle correctly then the dog should not orientate it to fighting only. My dog swims, does OB, rides in the car for hours and did bomb searches in a muzzle among other things. Putting the muzzle on was no more of a clue to what was going to happen than putting on a check chain. He still hit me the first couple times we tried this drill.

There is no doubt that constant muzzle fighting can be the culprit but, in the case where the muzzle didn't cue my dog why did he do it? BTW, we have a very strong bond. So yes, certain aspects of training CAN have an affect on others, but when that variable is thrown out you still have the "Unexplained unwanted bahavior".

We have a find and bite policy. We want our dogs to continue to fight people on the ground. An effective training method is ground fighting in the muzzle. So, what to do? David's theory is my own. Expose the dog to what you expect to happen on the street. Train for the worst case scenario.

As far as a fallen officer scrambling to get up well, suppose its a 100 lb female handler and a 220 lb bad guy beating the crap out of her? Who then is the largest target making the most movement? Without specifically training for this problem then that same officer is going to to get bit...it's the last thing she needs, and very well could be the last nail in the coffin or the event that puts her out of the fight.

Jerry, I know you have the utmost confidence in your dogs. Please be sure of what you are doing. If he bites you maybe you'll be lucky and he only does it once for a short time before he figures out he f'ed up.

Howard


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## David Scholes

Lyn Chen said:


> Why not?


I used to play this scenario as kid from dogs raised as a puppy. The dog always tried to help the bad guy (a friend) on top... very ego bruising. True it was play but I believe the instinct is normally stronger than bond. I AM 90% SURE SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET BIT because they've got they're ego in pollyannaville. That's "Why not". I would LOL but someone could get seriously hurt.

Too me this is just like the video of the dog "saving" another dog by dragging it's lifeless body out of traffic. I'm probably one of the few who believe that bond was really lunch LOL. True we gain a bond with our dogs but they don't think like we do. Hmmm, on second thought there is the Donner party proving me wrong!


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## Gregory Doud

David Scholes said:


> Instead, how about having the dog get used to the handler being on the ground and giving commands while on the ground? Maybe the dog has NEVER seen the handler being in control while on the ground and may not recognize the handler while wound up in drive. Puppies love to get their playmates down and maul them for fun... just natural as soon as they start to play... which is practice for real fighting.


*** That was Jerry Lyda's reply, not mine. Mine was with the astericks. - Greg


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## Kristen Cabe

David Scholes said:


> Too me this is just like the video of the dog "saving" another dog by dragging it's lifeless body out of traffic. I'm probably one of the few who believe that bond was really lunch


Could be, but the 'lifeless' dog was not dead, according to several news accounts. It did die from its injuries, but it was not dead when the other dog was dragging it out of the road.


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## Gregory Doud

Howard Knauf said:


> Bingo. For the record...if you introduce the muzzle correctly then the dog should not orientate it to fighting only. My dog swims, does OB, rides in the car for hours and did bomb searches in a muzzle among other things. Putting the muzzle on was no more of a clue to what was going to happen than putting on a check chain. He still hit me the first couple times we tried this drill.
> 
> *** But, even with all the desensitizing, the dog still knows he's wearing the muzzle. He is just not thinking protection work while wearing it. Even if the canine is punching hard or trying to bite while wearing it, he knows he can't actually engage the man while it's on. Like I mentioned previously, I feel it's still the best training scenario for a dog to combat a decoy who is not wearing any training equipment while off leash. - Greg


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## David Scholes

Kristen Cabe said:


> Could be, but the 'lifeless' dog was not dead, according to several news accounts. It did die from its injuries, but it was not dead when the other dog was dragging it out of the road.


I couldn't see it move but if it was moving and yelping then I'm even more convinced it's lunch. I've called hundreds of canines (foxes & coyote) plus a few bears & a mtn lion to their death making sounds similar to a distressed puppy. They come in thinking free lunch. My point is they don't think like we sometimes imagine.


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## Lyn Chen

David Scholes said:


> I used to play this scenario as kid from dogs raised as a puppy. The dog always tried to help the bad guy (a friend) on top... very ego bruising. True it was play but I believe the instinct is normally stronger than bond. I AM 90% SURE SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET BIT because they've got they're ego in pollyannaville. That's "Why not". I would LOL but someone could get seriously hurt.
> 
> Too me this is just like the video of the dog "saving" another dog by dragging it's lifeless body out of traffic. I'm probably one of the few who believe that bond was really lunch LOL. True we gain a bond with our dogs but they don't think like we do. Hmmm, on second thought there is the Donner party proving me wrong!


Just because it was a dog raised from a pup or the dog has been with the handler a long time doesn't mean the bond is as strong as it *could* be. Not saying a dog totally bonded with the handler won't bite him but it's not something to discount, either. Definitely the dog's individual temperament should also come into play.

Example: why can some dogs do bitework on their own handlers, and others can't? You would think that every dog will jump at this opportunity.


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## Lyn Chen

To look at this in dog terms, or doggy instinct, "bonding" has a lot to do with proving the dog that you're the absolute, no question about it alpha, as well as having the dog's complete and utter respect. If he is secure in your position, and he is secure in his--you are strong, dominant, and provide him food, shelter, and leadership--i.e. following you always gets him success--what reason does he have to try to overtake you at the slightest opportunity? It makes no sense, from an instinct point of view. It's not like dogs have egos and try to think, "Well, he's such a good boss, but I think I can be better."


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## David Scholes

Lyn Chen said:


> Just because it was a dog raised from a pup or the dog has been with the handler a long time doesn't mean the bond is as strong as it *could* be. Not saying a dog totally bonded with the handler won't bite him but it's not something to discount, either. Definitely the dog's individual temperament should also come into play.
> 
> Example: why can some dogs do bitework on their own handlers, and others can't? You would think that every dog will jump at this opportunity.


I admit the bond will help wake the dog up and MAY... MAY... save the handler from a bite in this scenario. I just don't think it will in MOST circumstances. But I do believe most dog owners would agree with you. We all want to believe the dog who was just loving on us will always come and save us [-o<:razz:. 

After all the video and experienced testimony (from others), I'm kinda surprised at all the denial on this thread. I'll just sit back now and wait for the new coming gladiatorial video...which will probably get removed by the moderators.


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## Lyn Chen

David, read may last post. It's not about the dog loving the handler, but the dog having success with that particular handler. Gaining a dog's respect and trust is very important in bonding, and one that I admit too many people overlook (because the dog obeys and chases a ball, that is usually enough for most). Dogs have more complicated social structures with us than with other animals (or else why are we all here?), and they tend to take in more subtle things than we give them credit for. They're not humans, but at the same time it seems so blatantly unfair to generalize them.


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## Ken Thompson

When I was a young boy, I had a GSD that I raised from a pup. I can still remember standing in a play fort in the woods with my friends, when some older boys came in and started pushing me around. They shoved me to the ground and was going to whip my butt when my dog stepped in and took over. No training, just instincts. She went after the boy that had me on the ground. Needless to say all the older boys ran off. This made an impression on me I will never forget. 

I think it's a training issue.


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## Jerry Lyda

I'm still trying to figure out this ego mention. I hope it wasn't directed towards me. This is one damn good training discussion. It's the best I've been in for awhile. I see the positive points on both sides. I'm sticking to my guns here because I don't think our dogs will bite us. You will see on the video if I'm wrong and if I am it won't be the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last. This is in no way an ego trip. IF I do get bit it won't be the first or the last. I'm not tuff, just confident.Crazy maybe??? In my Navy days I did a lot worst.


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## David Scholes

Jerry Lyda said:


> I'm still trying to figure out this ego mention. I hope it wasn't directed towards me. This is one damn good training discussion. It's the best I've been in for awhile. I see the positive points on both sides. I'm sticking to my guns here because I don't think our dogs will bite us. You will see on the video if I'm wrong and if I am it won't be the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last. This is in no way an ego trip. IF I do get bit it won't be the first or the last. I'm not tuff, just confident.Crazy maybe??? In my Navy days I did a lot worst.


When I say ego, I don't mean ego trip as in acting tuff. Just that most people would never be able to admit to themselves that their dog MAY not be able to analyze the situation and think to bite the right person. Bond probably does help override it but I doubt it ALWAYS does or even most of the time. But then bond is hard to measure and I don't think if you get bit it means your dog does not have enough of a bond with you. 

Actually, I hope I'm wrong because I want to believe like Pollyanna. It's kind of depressing otherwise but I am heartened to hear that it can be corrected with training. If bond will do it ... even better!


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## David Scholes

Lyn Chen said:


> David, read may last post. It's not about the dog loving the handler, but the dog having success with that particular handler. Gaining a dog's respect and trust is very important in bonding, and one that I admit too many people overlook (because the dog obeys and chases a ball, that is usually enough for most). Dogs have more complicated social structures with us than with other animals (or else why are we all here?), and they tend to take in more subtle things than we give them credit for. They're not humans, but at the same time it seems so blatantly unfair to generalize them.


I agree almost 100%. It's just that I also know dogs will do this when in a pack situation to each other. The pack dynamic changes over time but I guess there is a chance a dog won't do this to his best buddy in the pack. I'm skeptical of if the buddy/bond theory is fool proof with all dogs and it would be very difficult to test and evaluate level of bond. Very subjective.

My dog does have a pretty good bond with "her" kitty LOL.


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## Howard Knauf

Just to play devils' advocate (and boost my own theory supported by experience :grin......If the bond issue is so key, you would think that a higher percentage of dogs would NOT attack their handler during this scenario. As it is, approx 90-95% of all working dogs I have seen will attack the handler on the first time out; Matthews video supports that number. Everyone I have spoken to over the years have experienced the same thing in their unit or club.

Now, there CAN'T be that many cops and sport people with bonds that are loose or non-existant. It just doesn't wash. I have however, seen many dogs only hit the handler ONCE, but not do it again. To me that suggests a good bond but instinct taking over during the initial drill wherein the dog is on genetic autopilot and hit the downed dog/man. BTW, those dogs were the easiest to convert. When your shit is weak and your getting your ass kicked good then most times you only have the one shot. I want to make sure it counts and the bad guy is the one getting mauled.

Howard


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jerry Lyda said:


> Only one of the dogs that we will video has ever had a muzzle on. I will use him ( Bentley ) in a video without a muzzle, the decoy will wear a hidden sleeve. I am betting that he will not bite me but will bite the decoy. He won't get there fast because he is older, but that's my bet.


I'm really interested in seeing this video, I don't think it will be a fair test because the decoy is wearing a sleeve and the dog could know that.

I think somebody's got to bite the bullet and do it without equipment on anyone to prove the point, and then it will still just be one dog, maybe two.


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## Jerry Lyda

No muzzle and no sleeve????Ain't gonna happen. )


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## Jack Martin

*NOT I said the fly*


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'm really interested in seeing this video, I don't think it will be a fair test because the decoy is wearing a sleeve and the dog could know that.
> 
> I think somebody's got to bite the bullet and do it without equipment on anyone to prove the point, and then it will still just be one dog, maybe two.


Someone should give MTV a call this could make a great episode of jackass/wildboys let one of them take the shot:razz:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jerry Lyda said:


> No muzzle and no sleeve????Ain't gonna happen. )


I can understand the dog in a muzzle, but without one and having somebody wear a hidden sleeve wont be very convincing. Don't you have any inlaws you're not too fond of ?? :idea:


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## Howard Knauf

Just watch a pack of dogs. Sooner or later you'll get to see what you want and no people will be injured. Warning....Instinctual behavior content... Sorry, had to throw that in there.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just make the damn video. It has been long enough, and I think you are out there training the damn thing. 

Should have been done a week ago. 

You guys kill me. THe bond????? LOL


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## Matt Hammond

I am with you Jeff. Way to much over thinking on this one. I feel the dogs in the Video were set up to fail, not sure why, but they were put in a no win situation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Make the seminar giver look like a bad ass. Nothing like blowing up someones training to feel better about yourself.

I may make FUN of someones training..................... LOL


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## Matthew Grubb

Someone kick me next time I even hint about putting training footage on here. #-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, but look how many people have had to dig deep to come up with rationalizations of how their dog wouldn't do that.

Once you get to know dog people, you really start understanding that it is always better to speak Walt Disney to them.

I wish I could tell you all the stupid places I have been overseas where the dogs are eating the dead. I guess the bond wasn't strong enough. LOL

They just keep breeding weaker and weaker dogs, so no one really gets the fact that his "affection" is just submissive behaviour, or, like my dog, when he sits close to me, he is telling me I haven't fed him yet. The rest is just conditioning through training.


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## Gillian Schuler

Matt Hammond said:

_I feel the dogs in the Video were set up to fail, not sure why, but they were put in a no win situation._

I feel we didn't see all and, without commentary, drew our own conclusions, rightly or wrongly. The best video can be misleading.

Bonding is not a guarantee in my mind for no handler bites, however strong. From the day even the tiniest, cutest pup enters your home, he's waiting for you to make a "mistake" so he can climb up the ladder - it's instinct. As for rescuing another dog from the road - this would mean the dog understood the situation and handled accordingly. Bet he didn't go to the funeral, though 

I love my dogs but wouldn't trust them 100%. If I brutally mishandled them, I wouldn't care to foresee the outcome, neither would I like to be locked up somewhere with them without any food for a length of time.

What happens when you're iill or incapacitated? Dogs behave as well as they should??


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## Mike Scheiber

What the video shows is the sad state cop dog trainers are in this should be a elementary training exercise this should be easily repaired much less never happen.
WTF is going on across the country with the guys running the the K9 programs nobody talks to each other. How long have cops been using dogs in this country???
Perfect example now you know why sport people laugh at the K9 and ppd trainers.


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## David Scholes

Mike Scheiber said:


> What the video shows is the sad state cop dog trainers are in this should be a elementary training exercise this should be easily repaired much less never happen.
> WTF is going on across the country with the guys running the the K9 programs nobody talks to each other. How long have cops been using dogs in this country???
> Perfect example now you know why sport people laugh at the K9 and ppd trainers.


My experience is only with one club & sport, Schutzhund. From that and reaction on this board, I don't think most sport people are even aware of this phenomena and never train for it. We live in the age of Disney and most people make decisions based on emotion. Why bother training for a situation that is inconceivable? We all know sport people develop such a strong bond that it would never happen to them :-o. I believe it is the LE guys who point out that this is fixable and with actual experience to back it up everyone else either didn't know or is in denial... ie my dog would never do that!


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## Howard Knauf

Matt Hammond said:


> I am with you Jeff. Way to much over thinking on this one. I feel the dogs in the Video were set up to fail, not sure why, but they were put in a no win situation.


 Hi Matt,

Not a fair statement. Had the bad guy been on the ground it would have been a win situation. You're right though...too much over thinking going on. We KNOW the dog is going to do it, so we train it out of them. Simple as that. It is something that has been known to cops for a long time. Why it isn't regularly addressed is beyond me given the serious nature of the job and the role in which the dog is playing. It's akin to using a dog that won't bite..whats the point?

Howard


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## Howard Knauf

Mike Scheiber said:


> What the video shows is the sad state cop dog trainers are in this should be a elementary training exercise this should be easily repaired much less never happen.
> WTF is going on across the country with the guys running the the K9 programs nobody talks to each other. How long have cops been using dogs in this country???
> Perfect example now you know why sport people laugh at the K9 and ppd trainers.



I pretty much agree with your first sentence, but not all PSD trainers are so blase'.

Ref the last sentence...I'll refrain from giving examples of why K9 trainers laugh at sport people though.:lol:


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## Howard Knauf

Ptlm. Grubb,

Personally, I'm glad you posted that video. If it saves one cops/person's' life then you sir, have done a great service. That is why I brought it up before. This is no game and anything to prevent a tragedy is worth discussing.

Howard


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## Jerry Lyda

I agree with you Howard. 

Matthew, I'm glad you posted this. It makes for a very good topic and what we can do to stop this behavior and what causes it. Thanks for posting it.


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## todd pavlus

Why doesn't somebody just take there dog out into a bad neighborhood, say something offensive, wait for the ass beating, and then see what your dog will do. But I am not volunteering:-\" . I think the outcome would be different in a real situation


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## Howard Knauf

todd pavlus said:


> I think the outcome would be different in a real situation


 I'm assuming you think that the dog will target the bad guy. That assumption would be wrong. K9 handlers have been bitten by their own dogs in "Real" situations before. As a handler you identify as many potential problems as you can, then you fix em. Thats why real scenario training for PSDs are the way to go. You can't recreate every scenario possible but handler experience through the years gives a good base line to work from until some new, dangerous glitch is discovered. When it's encountered, you fix it, then let your bretheren know about it.


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## Lyn Chen

Okay guys, so I'm assuming most of you are saying that a dog, any dog, will not exhibit defensive behaviours when their handler is threatened, and will only do it if they themselves are threatened.

There's Disney shit, and then there's anti-Disney shit to the extreme. Dogs are pack animals. There are more behaviours associated with that then just kick whoever's ass is down. Are you all saying that dogs are *only* impressed by aggression that they will automatically back up whoever's more violent?


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## Gillian Schuler

Howard Knauf said:


> I'm assuming you think that the dog will target the bad guy. That assumption would be wrong. K9 handlers have been bitten by their own dogs in "Real" situations before. As a handler you identify as many potential problems as you can, then you fix em. Thats why real scenario training for PSDs are the way to go. You can't recreate every scenario possible but handler experience through the years gives a good base line to work from until some new, dangerous glitch is discovered. When it's encountered, you fix it, then let your bretheren know about it.


Howard, 

It's a pity you are in on this - I'm beginning to have doubts:-? 

I remember posts from anoither forum and I always valued your comments.

All I have problems with is the way the dogs were set up...


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## David Scholes

Lyn Chen said:


> Okay guys, so I'm assuming most of you are saying that a dog, any dog, will not exhibit defensive behaviours when their handler is threatened, and will only do it if they themselves are threatened...


I don't think anybody said that. Of course they will normally exhibit defensive behavior. Just don't be on the ground if you've never trained for it. The dog probably thinks he's defending you as he helps do you in.


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## Gillian Schuler

[-o< [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o< [-o<


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## Mike Scheiber

David Scholes said:


> My experience is only with one club & sport, Schutzhund. From that and reaction on this board, I don't think most sport people are even aware of this phenomena and never train for it. We live in the age of Disney and most people make decisions based on emotion. Why bother training for a situation that is inconceivable? We all know sport people develop such a strong bond that it would never happen to them :-o. I believe it is the LE guys who point out that this is fixable and with actual experience to back it up everyone else either didn't know or is in denial... ie my dog would never do that!


David this is my quote from a week or so ago on page 7 or something


Mike Scheiber said:


> I am some what miffed by the dogs reactions I am by no means saying I really know but I cant believe all these dogs are shitters. The cops obviously haven't trained for this scenario especially listing to there banter in the back round. So my guess is basic instinct reaction. I am also miffed that something like this isn't common knowledge among the K9 police community. I'm a sport guy I don't train like they do. I tell you what if a training flaw/character flaw or what ever this big cropped up in the Schutzhund community it would be monumental.
> I'm staying tuned to see if the cops are able to train dependably to squelch it.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Howard Knauf said:


> I pretty much agree with your first sentence, but not all PSD trainers are so blase'.
> 
> Ref the last sentence...I'll refrain from giving examples of why K9 trainers laugh at sport people though.:lol:


My statement is a generalization and based only from the sport side You will have to talk with the PSD trainers that also do sport/Schutzhund I think MAYBE they may be better to get a unbiased opinion.
I also think Matthew did a great service shedding lite on this boondoggle.
Don't take any thing I say here to serious I'm mostly just playing.


----------



## David Scholes

Mike Scheiber said:


> David this is my quote from a week or so ago on page 7 or something


Yea. I'm just relieved to hear from those with real world LE experience who have trained for this have found that it can be fixed with training. Sounds like not all those who's life depends on their dog have trained for this. Based on reactions on this thread with all types of trainers, I suspect also many in LE trust too much in their bond and don't believe it could happen to them.

My point is just that dog people don't WANT to believe this phenomena so they don't. Their belief in their dog bond will not allow them to contemplate that their dog could ever hurt them. Why bother training for something that you KNOW :roll: will never happen to you? After all, all those guys in the videos probably beat their dog <sarcasm>. We appear not to want to believe an unpleasant truth.

To me, this human psychological phenomena is just as interesting as the dog biting the handler when he's on the bottom.

Who knows, maybe my sense of reality is now in La La Land 8-[.


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## Gerry Grimwood

It's been two weeks since this thread started and nobody has tried it yet ?? Where's Patrick ?

I could test the theory with a 5 mo old pup, he would be on me like a fat kid on a peice a cake


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## Howard Knauf

Gillian Schuler said:


> Howard,
> 
> It's a pity you are in on this - I'm beginning to have doubts:-?
> 
> I remember posts from anoither forum and I always valued your comments.
> 
> All I have problems with is the way the dogs were set up...


 Gillian,
I'm confused. What doubts do you have? I have always maintained this philosophy in regard to this specific issue. I've known about this problem for 12 years. I learned how to fix it back then, and still fix it the same way today. We may not agree on what the root cause is, but surely we can agree that it happens, especially since it is now on video.

I'm a big fan of having a good bond with my dogs. I find that less compulsion in my training and more motivation makes for a better working dog. That said...My well bonded partner tried to eat me up in this scenario. If it makes people happy I'll jump off the "Instinct" bandwagon. It won't mean a thing because the outcome will be the same...handler on bottom, dog eats handler unless it is trained out of him to not eat handler.

Even if Jerry's dog doesn't eat him, he'll just be part of the 3-5% who don't get attacked. Good for him but, lets have the rest of the membership do the same and get the results. Sometimes we dont have to know why the dog does what he does....we just know he's doing it. If its a liability it needs to be fixed ASAP.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Gerry Grimwood said:


> It's been two weeks since this thread started and nobody has tried it yet ?? Where's Patrick ?
> 
> I could test the theory with a 5 mo old pup, he would be on me like a fat kid on a peice a cake


I tried it and posted vid right away! I thought everybody would be trying it! 

I do however understand that I am nobody:| And my dog doesn't even have pointy ears, let alone protection training so it coudn't count. 

I would challenge anyone to say my dog and I do not have a great bond, despite the video outcome.


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## Matt Hammond

Mike Scheiber said:


> WTF is going on across the country with the guys running the the K9 programs nobody talks to each other. How long have cops been using dogs in this country???
> Perfect example now you know why sport people laugh at the K9 and ppd trainers.


This is a brave and stupid statement all in one. Who do you think trained these guys........Sport folks weather past or current, that have no clue what it is like to have to stand in a gap and make a choice on weather to send your dog or not. I train sport, PPD and police dogs, do you laugh at me too? It is a great world when all you have to worry about is the amount of points you will lose for a slow down, or late out.


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## Howard Knauf

Jennifer, Where's the video. I love when floppy eared dogs with no bite training attack their handlers.:razz::razz:


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## Jennifer Coulter

Howard Knauf said:


> Jennifer, Where's the video. I love when floppy eared dogs with no bite training attack their handlers.:razz::razz:


Good ol' post 63 of this long a** thread :smile:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Sorry Jennifer, I watched your video and just plain forgot.

All dogs ears are floppy when they're biting :lol:


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## Jennifer Coulter

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Sorry Jennifer, I watched your video and just plain forgot.
> 
> All dogs ears are floppy when they're biting :lol:


Now Gerry let's see that vid of the 5 month old ripping you apart while we wait for the "REAL" videos


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## David Scholes

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Good ol' post 63 of this long a** thread :smile:


Jennifer, I thought that was a great example. I guess everyone does think pointy ears and bite training make a difference LOL. My bet is there is a difference. Bloody snow.


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## Mike Scheiber

Matt Hammond said:


> This is a brave and stupid statement all in one. Who do you think trained these guys........Sport folks weather past or current, that have no clue what it is like to have to stand in a gap and make a choice on weather to send your dog or not. I train sport, PPD and police dogs, do you laugh at me too? It is a great world when all you have to worry about is the amount of points you will lose for a slow down, or late out.


I guess you didn't answer the question that makes you part of the joke.
See post #169


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## Howard Knauf

Thanks Jennifer.


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## Jerry Lyda

We did one video tonight. This was with GSD Reba. Handler is Travis, Jay is the decoy and I am holding Reba as in the first videos. Three more dogs to go. We will video those Sat. morning at 0900.

I will take this to work tomorrow and try to get it on youtube.

One down three to go. Reba had never had a muzzle on as two of the others have not. She brought blood on me trying to get it off. She settled down and was sent as in the other videos.

Stay tuned to see what happened.


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## Travis Sharpe

Suspense!!!!! Now we will see if you can upload the video Jerry.LOL! Without giving away the endind, I will say that Reba did exactly what I knew she would do when I was thrown to the ground.

Jay- Great job beating me up tonight!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Howard Knauf said:


> Gillian,
> I'm confused. What doubts do you have? I have always maintained this philosophy in regard to this specific issue. I've known about this problem for 12 years. I learned how to fix it back then, and still fix it the same way today. We may not agree on what the root cause is, but surely we can agree that it happens, especially since it is now on video.
> 
> I'm a big fan of having a good bond with my dogs. I find that less compulsion in my training and more motivation makes for a better working dog. That said...My well bonded partner tried to eat me up in this scenario. If it makes people happy I'll jump off the "Instinct" bandwagon. It won't mean a thing because the outcome will be the same...handler on bottom, dog eats handler unless it is trained out of him to not eat handler.
> 
> Even if Jerry's dog doesn't eat him, he'll just be part of the 3-5% who don't get attacked. Good for him but, lets have the rest of the membership do the same and get the results. Sometimes we dont have to know why the dog does what he does....we just know he's doing it. If its a liability it needs to be fixed ASAP.


Sorry Howard - what I meant to say was that as I have always valued your comments, I would be probably eating my words and believing you. I think the "a pity you are in on this" caused the confusion.


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## Howard Knauf

Still confused. I'm very proud to be in on this discussion. It means a lot to me to try and prevent a future tragedy for dog handlers.


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## Jerry Lyda

Howard, Gillian has confused me too. Am I missing something?


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## Howard Knauf

Jerry, we've had many an in depth discussion on another board. Most times we agreed, but sometimes not. We're good so it's nothing personal. I just can't read between the lines on this one. Maybe she'll spell it out for me.

Then again...it may just be a communication barrier due to our different geographical locations.


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## Jerry Lyda

Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. I'm just kinda confused with this. I feel like I'm standing on the corner of Walk and Don't Walk. lol


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## Jerry Lyda

OK folks, I can't get the video downloaded at work. I'll have to wait till I get home Later tonight. Darn it.......


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## Al Curbow

Howard,
I know its rare for LE to get a dog as a pup, what do you think the % of dogs that you have had from a pup would do this?


----------



## Mo Earle

_"I'm confused. What doubts do you have? I have always maintained this philosophy in regard to this specific issue. I've known about this problem for 12 years. I learned how to fix it back then, and still fix it the same way today. We may not agree on what the root cause is, but surely we can agree that it happens, especially since it is now on video.

I'm a big fan of having a good bond with my dogs. I find that less compulsion in my training and more motivation makes for a better working dog. That said...My well bonded partner tried to eat me up in this scenario. If it makes people happy I'll jump off the "Instinct" bandwagon. It won't mean a thing because the outcome will be the same...handler on bottom, dog eats handler unless it is trained out of him to not eat handler.

Even if Jerry's dog doesn't eat him, he'll just be part of the 3-5% who don't get attacked. Good for him but, lets have the rest of the membership do the same and get the results. Sometimes we dont have to know why the dog does what he does....we just know he's doing it. If its a liability it needs to be fixed ASAP."

_First I agree 100% with Howard- Secondly all of this talk on Jerry testing his dogs and getting the results-is what I don't understand- Jerry are you doing it, just to see what your dogs might do? Or are you trying to disprove that this thing does or does not occur? I don't think you can ever set up the exact scenario-and if your dogs don't bite, I don't think it will prove or disprove anything for others.Everyone should test their own dogs, to prevent a problem. Also ,your dogs MAY not have the same temperment as these dogs in the video, or Chico, that I know for a fact I had a great bond with, but did in fact target for me. Although when we tested him, he was also trained to muzzle fight, so adding a muzzle to the mix, did not cause a stressor for him-was that what caused him to go for me, the person down on the ground-possibly, and a lot of PSD's and PPD's are trained in muzzle fighting. The decoy was well aware that this might occur and suggested we train for it, since we were working K9 security together, and he was ready to deflect the dog,as neither of us had any type of equipment-none except praying that muzzle stayed on. Once we saw the problem, the decoy who was training with me, was able to fix the problem within a few minutes.
I think if you want to do the video to test your dogs, so you know what they will do is good,and might be fun for others to watch if you share But MOST importantly..... I especially feel all the handlers that have true PPD's or PSD's HAVE TO be aware this could occur-and if their dogs have the temperment with an edge, it might be something they want to train for.


----------



## David Scholes

I sure hope nobody is looking at this as a myth to be busted but just want to understand this behavior better.

I'm going to try it on my pup but she's not protection trained and only fights cows & horses. She might just run away. But she did bite me the other day when I tackled her and tied her with twine to keep her from running off my neighbors cattle that they were trying to return home while I had her out. Seems like her herding instinct is starting to kick in big time. She used to come when I called her off cattle.


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## Jerry Lyda

First let me explain to some. This test that we are doing is ONLY a test. This is not to disprove what we have already seen on video. The proof is in the video. All the dogs on that video were LE dogs I'm sure. The training that a PSD gets is somewhat different than what a PPD gets. I have a theory why I think the PSD bites the guy on the bottom and it's because of training nothing more. Theory and nothing more until I test our dogs. Will I get bit???? I damn sure hope not. Bentley is older now but he still bites HARD, ask the decoys and LE officers that have taken bites from him. Even more to why I want to test this is because it should be FUN.

The exact scenario will be just as close to what I saw on the video. It may somewhat different but so was each of those videos. We will test as close to what we saw. That's being as fair as possible.

Mo you said and I quote,"Everyone should test their own dogs, to prevent a problem." Don't bust my chops because I want to do the same. This is only a test, that is as plain as I can say it.

I'm sure that my dogs don't have the same temperment as those dogs. Mo that's what I'm counting on. I know for a fact that in his day Bentley would have made a much better PSD than a PPD. And Chico temperment Is no better than my Boston Terrier Doodle Bug. Doodle just don't have the size and he ain't scared of nothing either.

Mo you also said,"Although when we tested him, he was also trained to muzzle fight, so adding a muzzle to the mix, did not cause a stressor for him-was that what caused him to go for me, the person down on the ground-possibly, and a lot of PSD's and PPD's are trained in muzzle fighting. 
No, the muzzle was not a stressor for him. Chico knew when the muzzle was put on him he was going to get to have some fun. That is not a stressor. He simply did what he was trained to do. ( Yes Mo, Chico is a really nice dog and I mean that) He was trained to fight the man on the ground, which is my point. This is where he got to maul and have lots of fun. Only Bentley has ever had a muzzle on but he has never fought a man on the ground. All the other dogs NEVER have had a muzzle on. That's good because maybe this will uphold my theory and it's only a theory. It a test for heavens sake, nothing more. I wish that others would do this too then I would not have to risk getting bit.

Mo you said," I think if you want to do the video to test your dogs, so you know what they will do is good,and might be fun for others to watch if you share But MOST importantly..... I especially feel all the handlers that have true PPD's or PSD's HAVE TO be aware this could occur-and if their dogs have the temperment with an edge, it might be something they want to train for.

I'm going to share there's no if's about that. Wheather my theory is proven or not.

For the people being aware of what can happen is the purpose of this training section of this forum. When all this testing is done then I would like a discussion on how to train for it NOT to happen. The test must be first. Oh, and did I say that this is only a test.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Al Curbow said:


> Howard,
> I know its rare for LE to get a dog as a pup, what do you think the % of dogs that you have had from a pup would do this?


Hi Al,

Thats a good question. I would venture to say that 99% of LEO handlers do not raise their own partner from a puppy. That being said, we have to play the hand we're dealt with. I'm on a UK dog training site and I brought up this same issue there. In that country (and many places in Europe) their dogs are raised by a civilian family then given back to the PD. A lot of the handlers raise their dog from the git go if they have the room, and if they have already been admitted into the unit in the near future. 

A lot of those handlers experienced the same thing there as we do here. I wish I could give you a number of how many pups were raised by the handlers that did this but I can't. Those stats may, or may not support Jerry's thoughts about the bonding issue. Interesting question.

Now that I have viewed Jennifer Coulter's video I almost feel silly. Her dog did not attack her but did in fact go right to her. I can view it two ways...the dog was "Checking" on her to possibly see if she was OK, or she did what I believe was natural...run to the one at the bottom. Now, there was no violent dynamic in that situation where the dog (as a pack member) was cued into what was going to happen. A pack dog knows when the crap is going to hit the fan because of all the posturing and audible cues. A trained attack dog is, I believe, closer to being a wild dog and therefore has the same mentallity and reacts in a similar manner.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Jerry,

It seems we have a canundrum. Your dog not ever wearing a muzzle was stressed. How much it affected his natural reaction can only be guessed. A dog trained in a muzzle to ground fight will equate it to just that and he will be predisposed to go to ground. In my dogs case, he was completely neutral to the muzzle but he still hit me. There are a lot of variables in this experiment but the bottom line is lets figure out how to fix it. I'm 100% with you on that!

Howard


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Why do you think the dog was stressed? You haven't seen the video yet. She didn't care for it but she did her job none the less.

What is natural reaction with a trained dog??? A natural reaction would be to run away from a stressfull situation. She reverted to training and her training mode took over even though she was stressed with the muzzle.


----------



## Mo Earle

_".....Don't bust my chops because I want to do the same." :-k


_Jerry, I apparrently hit a nerve with you, and to clear the air- NOT my intention - if needed ....apology given.... 

I don't understand why you think I was just "busting your chops"- and not just adding to a discussion- something that I personally have seen happen with PSD's and my own PPD. Since you guys were making a video and talking about it,and the tone appeared you were trying to prove or disprove and decide if bonding etc were factors... I wanted to make it clear, that if your dogs acted differently than the very first video and didn't go for you , Handlers must still be aware this can and does happen, train for it, at the least expect it, so no one gets hurt....and not to come to a final conclusion as there are in fact a lot of issues ....whether it relates to temperment, training, many variables .....etc....that will affect the dogs response(again to be clear-I am not, or was not implying your dogs are any less..even your doodlebug.) My point is every dog is different, every situation is different, and it would be hard to recreate the scenario exactly everytime, to come to a final conclusion on the subject. So those that have dogs, especially working dogs need to be aware this occurs. 

You brought up the muzzle, as you discussed how Reba, Travis' dog reacted to it, and that she never did muzzle work prior to that- I would think that would cause stress-she is young, but just in the fact it is something new-not insinuating the dog has a weakness...all dogs react to stressors differently, some recover quickly, .anyway, that in itself would be a different factor in setting the scenario, from PSD's who routinely are exposed to muzzle use vs. a personal dog that does not...I think this is a good discussion, a real potential problem that a Handler could face, but something that can have an easy fix in training. I also think your group doing a video will add to the discussion.

.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Jerry Lyda said:


> Why do you think the dog was stressed? You haven't seen the video yet. She didn't care for it but she did her job none the less.
> 
> What is natural reaction with a trained dog??? A natural reaction would be to run away from a stressfull situation. She reverted to training and her training mode took over even though she was stressed with the muzzle.



Maybe I read your post wrong. I thought you said there was blood spilled on you from her trying to remove the muzzle. To so frantically try to remove the muzzle that she caused herself injury..I surmised she was stressed. If thats not the case then apologies.

you wrote.."What is natural reaction with a trained dog??? A natural reaction would be to run away from a stressful situation"...

You are 100% correct. But, she was trained to engage which is in contrast to natural behavior. You did train for that and she responded as she was trained....but the other natural reaction in play wasn't trained for.

I don't know the outcome, and I can't wait to see the video. Until then I'll stay mum as I'm digging a hole for myself with a lot of assumptions. Tomorrow's Saturday. Can't wait to see the videos.

Howard


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Thank you Mo, and you didn't hit a nerve. This is just a test and only a test. I have said in my post that I may be bit. There are many variables. Recreating will be hard because the original 4 videos were different from each other, close but there was differences. We will do the best we can to make ours as close as possible.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Good luck Jerry. A couple shots of Jack Daniels before you start wouldn't hurt a thing.:razz::razz:


----------



## Jerry Lyda

She was stressed with the muzzle. She scratched me. Better than being bitten. It was just new to her and she was trying to get it off. The good thing is she took care of business when needed. She didn't let the muzzle overcome her training.

I have tried everything I know to download her video, I think Travis put VooDoo on me. I'm not going to try anymore. I'll give it to the pros tomorrow. That thing has really got me frustrated so I give up.

I'm not trying to back out with Bentley but If he targets wrong on the bad guy (not me I hope) Jay or Matt someone will get hurt. He's a big boy so I may have to do his video later. I don't have a muzzle that will fit him correctly. I'll get one.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Howard and Jerry

If you can't convince them - confuse them!!

I seem to have made a right ....... out my thread for which I apologise. 

Sceptical by nature, I honestly didn't know what to think when this thread started. Then Howard joined in and I read his posts and wanted to say, "I've always found him to be on the same page so I started thinking "he must be right".


----------



## Howard Knauf

Jerry,

Do you have a photobucket account? I put my videos on there instead of youtube. It's pretty easy to do.

I agree with you postponing the exercise until you get a proper fitting muzzle. When working with these dogs it's always safety first!


Gillian, thanks for the explanation. Cheers.

Howard


----------



## David Frost

I've been following this thread with great interest. I really don't have anything constructive to add one way or the other. As a fellow police canine trainer, it is indeed interesting.

As a moderator, I just want to remind everyone, let's not make it personal. 

DFrost


----------



## Howard Knauf

And here I thought you were on vacation.8) I've been waiting for you to weigh in, but you were smart to just hang out and watch the show. I'm not gonna ask your opinion on this cause you'd have already posted if you wanted. Very shrewd. Bet you're thinking...."Is this the thread that Howard finally has a meltdown on?"=D>=D>=D>


----------



## David Frost

You??? Meltdown??? nahhh, It is an interesting thread though and for the most, part very informative. IT's interesting to see the varying experience levels and in fact, experiences themselves surface. 

DFrost


----------



## Howard Knauf

David Frost said:


> You??? Meltdown??? nahhh,
> 
> DFrost


 I don't know....I'm starting to feel as if I might say "Flame On!" any time now.=D>


----------



## Matthew Grubb

OHHHHH!!! Guess what all... I found some more of this video in a picture folder. I'm gonna re-post it with ALL the videos!! I'm a glutton! \\/


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Ok here we go. The first clip is of me and Lexus and the second is of Ichilles and Jay. Still can't get Reba's clip out of the camera. I can view it in the camera but can't get it to my computer. May have to do hers again.
I hope this works.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Do you need an account to see the video ?? I can't click the darn thing.


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## Jerry Lyda

Double click on the video.


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## Gillian Schuler

OK, I'll stick my neck out first - the dogs were focused!!!!!! They ignored who was holding them.

They "checked" what was happening.

Now I'll retire to the "Gods" (that's the cheapest vantage point at an opera) and await what comes...

Thank you Jerry and Jay.

Matthew, if you have more videos, great. Things like this have a right to be provoked and discussed. I have neither a PPD nor a PSD but learning how dogs tick is of use to us all. Thank you, too.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jerry Lyda said:


> Double click on the video.


Don't work for me, I had this problem trying to watch Gary Garners vids too, all I see is a picture in a film strip and can't make it do anything. Crap


----------



## jay lyda

*Re: First Ever WDF Training Challenge…*

I hate that we couldn't put Reba's vid on here. We will keep trying and get it on here. I will admit that she did the best of all them. You have to keep in mind that none of these dogs have ever wore a muzzle before. With that being said I thought they did pretty good by over coming it when they were sent. The main test was to see who they would hit first, the handler on bottom or the bad guy on top.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I second that


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## David Scholes

Does it make a difference if the guy on the bottom struggles? I'm just not seeing any movement from the bottom guy who I assume is the handler, so I'm wondering if that makes a difference.


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## Howard Knauf

Maybe its my work computer but I'm having a hard time finding it. Is it a link in the text (which I do not see) or in the signature line?


----------



## Konnie Hein

No comment on the actual training issues/scenarios (because it's way out of my realm of experience!), but I have to say that I love the acting in your videos! You guys were awesome - it looked real!!! Hollywood, here you come!:lol:


----------



## Jerry Lyda

David Scholes said:


> Does it make a difference if the guy on the bottom struggles? I'm just not seeing any movement from the bottom guy who I assume is the handler, so I'm wondering if that makes a difference.


It may, but the handlers on the first videos balled up and didn't move till the dog hit them. We got pretty close to what they did.


----------



## todd pavlus

Looks like Ichilles did what most people hope their dog would do, hit the "perp" first. Great videos, especially for dogs that have never worn a muzzle before


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## Jerry Lyda

Both dogs did, Ichilles and Lexus. Reba did too but I haven't got that video to work yet. May have to do another one of her.


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## Howard Knauf

Thanks for posting those Jerry. You should be proud of the outcome. 100% success. I'd say more but I have a lot of head scratching to do.


----------



## David Scholes

Howard Knauf said:


> Thanks for posting those Jerry. You should be proud of the outcome. 100% success. I'd say more but I have a lot of head scratching to do.


Do you think it could be lack of movement by the guy on the bottom?


----------



## Al Curbow

Nice Jerry and Jay. Nice dogs and great reps of the breed!


----------



## Matthew Grubb

Ok…. Here is ALL the footage from the exercise. The ones you have not seen yet were in the still image folder. This should add another 22 pages to this thread! For those of you that were offended by the audio last time……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8w8ArS2z0E&feature=channel_page


----------



## Matthew Grubb

One interesting comment that kept coming up was the “trained muzzle fighting” on the ground. I’d be REALY interested to see if dogs trained in the German PSP method of muzzle fighting where the fighting all takes place standing up would fair. 

Jerry’s vids lend a lot of credo to the ground fighting argument.


----------



## jay lyda

*Re: First Ever WDF Training Challenge…*

Movement is the key. It would take some time but this is what I would like to see. Handler on the ground with the perp on top, perp is simulating choking the handler which would make him the still one with the handler on the ground thrashing to get free. It would be excellent if you could get the dog to hit the perp. That would be tough but awesome if it would work.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Son, I may disagree with you with this. I think movement may, depending on the dog, have something to do with it. Looks like another test coming.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Could someone please paste the url of the movie when it is running ? I can't get the link to work.


----------



## jay lyda

*Re: First Ever WDF Training Challenge…*

How is a dog started in bitework? Its stimulated by a decoys movement. A dogs foundation is built through movement, its only later that we introduce the passive bites and teaching a dog who to bite in scenarios. How do we redirect a dog who may loose focus on the correct target, the decoys movement redirects him. Dogs are keyed on movement first. But, trained correctly you as well as I know that a dog can be trained past movement only.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

That's my boy.

Thanks Al. We think we have some pretty nice dogs too.


----------



## David Scholes

jay lyda said:


> Movement is the key. It would take some time but this is what I would like to see. Handler on the ground with the perp on top, perp is simulating choking the handler which would make him the still one with the handler on the ground thrashing to get free. It would be excellent if you could get the dog to hit the perp. That would be tough but awesome if it would work.


24 pages and you knew this along didn't you ](*,)=D>:lol:.


----------



## Matthew Grubb

In no way is what were doing a “study”… but what is the main difference between what we are seeing in the original video and Jerry’s. 

In the original video, all of the dogs were taught the same manner of muzzle fighting….. Hit…. Decoy goes down….ground fight… roll….roll…roll….fight…fight. Even though the dogs are from in some cases thousands of miles apart, they all had the same initial muzzle training. 

Jerry’s dogs haven’t had any muzzle fighting training (correct me if im wrong) and we see a different result. 

Could this be the difference?? Interesting!


----------



## Howard Knauf

Why does Jennifer's dog run to her on the bottom first? Why do pack dogs with no muzzle fighting exposure do the same during a beat down? In those circumstances I still believe that it is a pack rank/instinctual issue. My questions remain unanswered, or unknown. Jerry has answered his own in his test. Jerry...1, Dirty Howie..0. sigh...

Maybe I should take one of them there doggy behavioral courses at the local community college and get edumencated.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Ok, here is the one we did of Reba first.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

My guess is and only a guess Jerry & Jay's dogs are "custom trained" not much training prior to getting the dog/pups and developed. Also after watching some of there videos a variety modern training methods are being used. Very obvious no cookie cutter pigeon hole training.
Matthew's Quote "Jerry’s dogs haven’t had any muzzle fighting training (correct me if I'm​ wrong) and we see a different result. Could this be the difference?? Interesting!"Quote
seems also valid to me.
I still think it is a abomination and a joke why this sort of thing isn't ​elementar​y ​ knowledge to ​the people/departments​ or you guys that train dog's that have to work and protect.
I wonder how many cops have been lurking here and will go back to there head/lead trainer and make mention of some of what has been discussed here and be shot down or dismissed.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Mike Scheiber said:


> My guess is and only a guess Jerry & Jay's dogs are "custom trained" not much training prior to getting the dog/pups and developed.
> True these dogs were trained from pups up.
> 
> Also after watching some of there videos a variety modern training methods are being used. Very obvious no cookie cutter pigeon hole training.
> 
> Correct again
> 
> Matthew's Quote "Jerry’s dogs haven’t had any muzzle fighting training (correct me if I'm​ wrong) and we see a different result. Could this be the difference?? Interesting!"Quote
> seems also valid to me.
> 
> I agree, I think it all in the training. When introducing muzzle training it must be clear to the dog just as in anyother type of training what his objective is. He needs to know that the handler is the good guy.
> 
> I still think it is a abomination and a joke why this sort of thing isn't ​elementar​y ​ knowledge to ​the people/departments​ or you guys that train dog's that have to work and protect.
> I wonder how many cops have been lurking here and will go back to there head/lead trainer and make mention of some of what has been discussed here and be shot down or dismissed.


I just hope that these tests that we have done does get them to talking.


----------



## Al Curbow

Jerry,
Please ship me a Bently/Reba pup so my dog acts appropriately if i get knocked down, LOL


----------



## Jerry Lyda

I wish I could Al, Bentley is sterile. I did breed Lexus to Ichilles, have to wait and see if she took.


----------



## Matt Hammond

Our dogs are not custom trained or pattern trained, we just train. We just think of new ways and new things to throw at the dogs. Muzzle training is something none of us have been to keen about. So we don't do it. Reba, Ichillies, and Lexus are all dogs that can do anything asked of them. Reba is a working dual purpose dog for Travis at his homeless shelter. Ichillies is a demo dog for us that is trained in detection, and Lexus is Jerry's PPD, Detection dog, Riding partner, ect. 

In all of these vids you see the same thing, the dog going to movement. The difference is Jerry's vids to the originals, is the dogs go to the decoys movement rather then the handlers. Jerry is BIG on training our dogs in OB with alot of distractions (handler movement, other folks moving around) so to our dogs our movement is nothing to them, they go after the movement of the decoy thru habit. 

Great vids Jerry, sorry I missed it.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Thanks Matt, they were nice videos. I think what he meant as far as custom training is what you are speaking of.


----------



## ann schnerre

i have to say that i'm rather amazed that this thread went on so long, simply because i thought the answer to the question was self-evident: the dogs consistently went for the person on the ground even if it was the handler, therefore it was a training problem.

i'm no expert (as everyone knows), but it seems simple to me. and i'll confess to doing a "jeff oehlsen", aka a JO, aka not reading all 25 pages of discussion. well, at least for once i'm not over-thinking something


----------



## David Scholes

ann freier said:


> i have to say that i'm rather amazed that this thread went on so long, simply because i thought the answer to the question was self-evident: the dogs consistently went for the person on the ground even if it was the handler, therefore it was a training problem.
> 
> i'm no expert (as everyone knows), but it seems simple to me. and i'll confess to doing a "jeff oehlsen", aka a JO, aka not reading all 25 pages of discussion. well, at least for once i'm not over-thinking something


Actually there are some interesting INCONSISTENCIES that are starting to shed some light consistently. Now you'll have to go back and read all 25 pages :lol:.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

David, what does that mean? Or are you just messing with Ann?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Why in the name of **** all would I read all 25 pages ????

None of you are that interesting.:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Jerry Lyda said:


> Thanks Matt, they were nice videos. I think what he meant as far as custom training is what you are speaking of.


That's correct I couldn't think of another description. All these pages I dont think he read all my posts.


----------



## David Scholes

Jerry Lyda said:


> David, what does that mean? Or are you just messing with Ann?


I'm messing with her. As time goes on the inconsistencies are forming a pattern. I was a little frustrated that it took 25 pages to figure out the movement thing but I think it helped to understand better.


----------



## Kristen Cabe

Here are the direct links to the videos, for whoever it was that asked (I don't feel like scrolling all the way back to find who it was, right now)


Video 1 - Lexus: http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i160/JerryLyda/?action=view&current=Lexus.flv
Video 2 - Ichilles: http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i160/JerryLyda/?action=view&current=Ichilles.flv
Video 3 - Reba: http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i160/JerryLyda/?action=view&current=Reba.flv

On my computer this thread is only 7 pages long.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Thanks girl. I forgot about doing the links, sorry.


----------



## Kristen Cabe

S'ok. It will actually help ME out later when I'm able to actually watch the vidos. I won't have to search through 250 posts. I can just search for MY posts and there the links will be, at the top of the list! :lol:


----------



## Randy Allen

Matt,
And any one else that may remember, I read this thread through last night, it was late.

Forgive me if it's been answered already, but were these seasoned dogs? i.e. have they earned their badges yet?
Or are these dog still rather green and still in training working toward the street?

Nice job Jay and Jerry!

Randy


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Randy these are seasoned dogs. They are our personel dogs. They are trained as PPD. The green part is that they have never had a muzzle on. We compete with them in APPDA. Lexus will also compete in schutzhund. I will only do a schutzhund 1 with her though. Lexus is 4 years old, Ichilles is 3 years old and Reba is 2 years old. Bentley ( not shown is 11 and I don't have a muzzle big enough for his head. LOL He would do as the others have done. My daughter has a boxer,female and I want to do it with her and my Boston Terrier Doodle. No muzzle to fit him either but what the heck. LOL


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

It's a Boston Terrier....why do you need a muzzle?!? lol lol They can't grab too much skin...BUT I'd love to see the boston and the boxer doing it!!! I'm gonna have to try and get a video of Judge doing this when I get back home! I'm curious as to his reaction as he has had no formal protection training. 

I did it with my APBT Red back when I was training her and she ran circles around the decoy and ate duck shit off the ground instead of helping me out. BUT that's BEFORE she started her tempermant issues...so I'm curious as to how she'd react now! 

Courtney


----------



## Randy Allen

Oh yes Jerry,
I knew your dogs were seasoned. It shows......magnificately. That is, imho.

My question was really enre to the #1 post and videoed dogs Matthew originally started this book with.
Sorry if I was unclear about the distinction.
Randy


----------



## David Scholes

To me there are two different tests being done. One without handler movement and the other more realistic is with handler movement. The movement appears to be what confuses the dog and get the handler bit. 

So, what would you do to train out of this situation so the moving handler does not get bit? Would you first start with the handler not moving and make sure that is clean, then gradually add more and more movement by the bottom handler? I assume you'd use a muzzle all the time or you'd both have on suits? Do lots of training with handler giving commands from the ground? Does the handler not moving on the ground sometimes still get bit?


----------



## jay lyda

Actually if you look closely at the first vids Matthew posted there is really no movement by the handler once they are on the ground, but yet the dog still targets him. I think that these dogs where trained to muzzle fight who ever is on the ground. You see it in one of the clips, first handler is on the ground and he is hit, second he gets up and bad guy falls to the ground and then he is hit. I think movement was used to initially train this but it faded out to who ever is on the bottom is the target. Just my guess, I really don't how they were actually trained but this is what I think.


----------



## Howard Knauf

David Scholes said:


> So, what would you do to train out of this situation so the moving handler does not get bit? Would you first start with the handler not moving and make sure that is clean, then gradually add more and more movement by the bottom handler? I assume you'd use a muzzle all the time or you'd both have on suits? Do lots of training with handler giving commands from the ground? Does the handler not moving on the ground sometimes still get bit?


 David,
In an earlier post I explained how we fixed this. A cop/civilian shouldn't have to lie still to keep from getting bit.


----------



## Randy Allen

Anybody,
Please don't make me go back and reread this small novel.
Did Matthew video dogs still earning their street smarts, or were they dogs already on the beat?

Randy


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Kristen Cabe said:


> Here are the direct links to the videos, for whoever it was that asked (I don't feel like scrolling all the way back to find who it was, right now).


That would be me, thanks Kristen.

I thought Jerry and Jay's videos were great. I also thought the first videos were great for a different reason, can't say for sure but I would think a high percentage of Police dogs are sent on a fleeing or hiding suspect so getting bit by your own dog is a possibility but not in most cases. 

The dogs engaged as they were trained to do, the handler isn't usually in this situation.


----------



## Kevin Cramer

Randy Allen said:


> Anybody,
> Please don't make me go back and reread this small novel.
> Did Matthew video dogs still earning their street smarts, or were they dogs already on the beat?
> 
> Randy


 
They were all on the beat.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Gerry Grimwood said:


> , can't say for sure but I would think a high percentage of Police dogs are sent on a fleeing or hiding suspect so getting bit by your own dog is a possibility but not in most cases.
> 
> The dogs engaged as they were trained to do, the handler isn't usually in this situation.


 It only takes one case to get you killed. Fact is...the two are a team. I can't tell you how many times a bad guy would fight my dogs and I would have to help him beat the perps ass. Anything can happen when you're in a fight, especially having it go to ground. Train the dog likes it real so that he doesn't see it for the first time when it really happens.

Howard


----------



## David Scholes

Howard Knauf said:


> David,
> In an earlier post I explained how we fixed this. A cop/civilian shouldn't have to lie still to keep from getting bit.


Good enough. I'm a little confused because there seems to be to schools of thought as to the cause.

1) It is instinctual pack behavior
2) It is caused by training due to decoy movement for stimulation

I'll go with assuming it's a combo of both. I guess the cause doesn't really matter. Just train for it so the dog doesn't get confused on who to bite.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Howard Knauf said:


> Train the dog likes it real so that he doesn't see it for the first time when it really happens.
> Howard


I believe you and I hope I don't come off as judgemental, but this dog biting handler in this situation can't be a new thing, why wouldn't training to avoid this be common practice.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I believe you and I hope I don't come off as judgemental, but this dog biting handler in this situation can't be a new thing, why wouldn't training to avoid this be common practice.


 Can't argue with you there. Matter of fact, I'm in 100% agreement with you.

Reasons why it's not trained for....

1) Some cops don't know about it.
2) Some trainers don't know how to fix it.
3) It is dangerous training and some are scared.
4) Ego and denial
5) Laziness
6) Most commonly...combination of #4 and #5

Choose your medicine.

Howard


----------



## todd pavlus

And lack of updated techniques when it comes to SOME police k9 trainers


----------



## Howard Knauf

yep, still a lot of trainers living in the 60's...and they teach others the same old methods.


----------



## todd pavlus

That's why I don't understand why they do use some of the sport trainers, there are alot of good people out there. I can understand that civilans don't understand the tactical point of the training but there are alot of other area's to focus on. I respect the job police do, but their holier than thou egos get in the way of better training


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Not just for cops anymore. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiZPiK48pZ0&feature=related


----------



## Howard Knauf

Good response to Todd's final statement. And that guy didn't even go to ground. Damn holier than thou sport guys.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Here is some more reality for all the Walt Disney "mans best friend" types out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ1yyiJH18g&feature=related

Nothin like a little reality on Christmas Eve.


----------



## David Scholes

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here is some more reality for all the Walt Disney "mans best friend" types out there.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ1yyiJH18g&feature=related
> 
> Nothin like a little reality on Christmas Eve.


Shattered my faith in beasts and especially humanity. Everyone just stands there and watches screaming with no help, absolute cowardice. Then in the comments they blame it on the kid and say it was deserved because he must have been abusing the dogs. Unfortunately the Disney is so ingrained that people watching think the pack of loose dogs are totally innocent. That is twisted. I think I'll go back to my cave now.


----------



## Al Curbow

I'm still going by Jerrys vids. Good dogs, good training and a good bond with the dogs. The people watching that kid get tore up should be punished.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

That's Al, we DO try hard.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Not just for cops anymore. LOL
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiZPiK48pZ0&feature=related


That's funny the other I didn't need that. Reality any way you slice it


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Ok , guys , now where do we go from here?? Do we start a discussion on how to 1-prevent this from happening to the handler 2- How to train so that this is not an option for the dog. etc.... What ever other questions we come up with.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Well, I already know how to fix it. Question is..how to prevent it?

If it's purely a training issue (muzzle groundfighting in PSDs) then train correctly from the beginning.

If it's a bonding issue, then build a better bond. (A whole new thread...)

If it's instinctual, train the dog to ignore the instinct to give the desired result as in other aspects of training.

To be honest.....even though I sounded the instinctual horn on this one and was proven wrong by your tests...I still have a belief there as some questions of mine are still un-answered. A lot of good information has been written here on this subject which has not gone un-noticed, or ignored by me.

Be that as it may, there is only one constant......currently dogs will hit the man on the bottom. Why is still up in the air as far as I'm concerned. But that doesn't matter now. What matters is how to train for it, and how to fix it. I've already posted my technique....maybe we'll get some more to consider. I'm all ears.

Howard


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: To be honest.....even though I sounded the instinctual horn on this one and was proven wrong by your tests.

Not really, if you look at the history of their training, they do a lot of handler protection scenarios. LOL


----------



## Randy Allen

If a beginner can throw a thought in to this, mind if I try my hand ya all?

I think we have a combination of things coming together. On the instinctual/bonding front; I always thought that within the pack, rank issues were the deal. Guy on the bottom loses. That though is within the pack.
Any outside threats the pack sticks together against any and all outside interlopers........So are the dogs inadvertently conditioned to see all humans as part of the pack through our diligent socialization programs? Could that be the difference in psds and ppds?

It's fairly obvious that without due attention in training, at the moment at any rate, the dogs have no idea whom to take on and reverts to an instinctual reflex, if instinct is indeed whats happening.
Because if the only picture that's ever presented to the dog in his training is the good guy (my human) on top the results aren't a big surprise. 

I think we have a combination of things going on that can be addressed. But for the psds it may well come down to some compromises that once again our men in blue have to contend with, along with all the other bullshit they deal with from day to day.

Randy


----------



## Jerry Lyda

I don't think that there will be one sure fix or one sure way to train for it not to happen. I think we should get it all on the table and see where we go from there. There's got to more to it than we think and it's got to be an easy way to do it. Let's think about all that was brought up as to way they do it. Bonding or not enough bonding, instinctual, movement, these are all things that was brought up. Without going through the complete post again please add to this list as we remember it being brought up. Some of this will be really simple but with the things that contribute to the behavior or lack of things on a list, we can determine what needs to be done. Then we need to figure out the ways to do it in training. 

This is just one simple thing that we need to fix in order to protect the PSD handlers. Collectively we can do this. Give me your thoughts please.


----------



## Bob Scott

Again, I'm neither a PPD or a PSD trainer but (in most training scenarios I've seen) the dog takes the badguy to the ground to win the fight. That's a huge part of it's defeating the bad guy. 
Throw in the rank issues, dominance issues, lack of leadership, and unecessarily heavy handed training and the handler is set up to get bit when he/she goes down.


----------



## Tanya Beka

I just finished reading all 28 pages of this post and find it quite interesting.

I do, however have some comments on why the PSD's attacked the handler on the ground and in the videos of Reba etc they did not. There was a distinct different in the placing of the attacker and handler for all 3 of his videos with his dogs that makes it different to the dog's point of view and decion making process. 

In the videos of Reba and the other dogs, the attacker was sittinig, almost LAYING on top of the handler as he was attacking him. The handler and attacker were essestially at the same physical level as each other. When that occurs, yes, the dog will choose to attack the attacker and not the handler.

The videos were not replicated properly so you don't get the actual idea of what is happening in Matt's videos. In the video with the Toller attacking the handler, she exactly duplicated the heights of the handler and attacker and got the same outcome. BUT, if the attacker is laying on top of the handler, yes, the dog will attack the perp as the handler is under him and they are essentially at the same height.

I think it is funny that with all the talk and such, only 2 people reproduced this training scenario, and only one reproduced it accurately. The other one probably took a bunch of takes to find out how to do it so the dog would look good and he wouldn't be embarrased. (I'm sorry, I don't remember anyone's names, as I have just spent 30 minutes reviewing this and after 28 pages have forgotten names!)


*Challenge:*

Reproduce the original video _exactly_ with your dog. Post the FIRST take of it, without training for it.

Scenario: The dog is held on leash several dozen feet away from the handler and attacker. Both are standing up. They start to argue. Attacker pushes handler to the ground and STANDS over top of him, facing the dog, pretending to attack the handler. Handler is between dog and attacker. Release the dog (in muzzle!). When dog starts attacking handler on ground, handler stands up and pushes attacker to ground. Dog then goes after attacker on ground.


For those of you who think it, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the dog's pre-dosposition to muzzle fighting or how they were trained to fight with a muzzle on. It could be a dog's first time in muzzle (who accepts the muzzle and doesn't fight it) or a dog that wears it 24/7. Doesn't matter. 

It has to do with the INSTINCT of the dog. It has to do with the handler being AWARE of this instict and learning from it. It has to do with knowing of the existance of this instinctual behavior and knowing that it needs to be trained in 95% of all dogs to attack the attacker even if the handler is on the ground.


I am absolutely AMAZED that with all the people with dogs who posted in this thread that hardly anyone has the courage to set up the scenario properly to see the outcome. Pages ago, someone mentioned ego. This is not supposed to be about ego. The only one who replicated it properly was a female and she didn't make excuses for her dog like everyone else. She did it right.

Come on guys, let's see it! It's not the end of the world to know that your dog is a normal DOG. Then you can be aware of it and train for a better repsonse should the situation occur. Remove the ego and just do the scenario!!! Let's see a bunch of videos!


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## jay lyda

So it really depends on where the bad guys rear end is. If his rear end is a little higher then the handler is going to get bit and if the bad guys rear end is a little lower then the handler is safe for the dog has a clear pic on who to bite now. Ok I got it, does everyone else see now?


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## Courtney Guthrie

Umm....Jay was that sarcasm???? Cause if it wasn't...I don't get it. I thought after viewing the videos that I had a good idea of what was needed and going on in training. 

Courtney


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## Jerry Lyda

Ok, Tanya. Get a camera and get busy we can use your videos too
In the first videos the instructions to the handlers was to Cover your face and balls and protect your ribs. The idea was for the handler to be on bottom and the perp on top beating the handler. I think what we showed was just that and it looked more convincing as a real fight. We all said that ours was not exactly duplicated but it was close for practical purposses. We can do this again with another dog, Abbie my daughter's boxer. 

Now for all you out there. This was and is ONLY A TEST. It's not the fact that our dogs did not bite the handler it's about PSDs bitting theirs. This is a training discussion and in this discussion we want to come up with training to keep PSDs from bitting their handlers. The whole idea is for the police handlers to come home safe. I hope I never have to use my PPD but I know for a fact the PSDs are used dailey.

Now to you again Tanya. You can believe what you want if you can't take our word on us sending our dogs with muzzles on for their very first bite. I had no doubt who would get bit but that muzzle was a problem. They did fight the muzzle and we had to wait till they were not fighting it before we sent them. We did not train for this, we just did it. Believe what you like.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I am absolutely AMAZED that with all the people with dogs who posted in this thread that hardly anyone has the courage to set up the scenario properly to see the outcome. Pages ago, someone mentioned ego. This is not supposed to be about ego. The only one who replicated it properly was a female and she didn't make excuses for her dog like everyone else. She did it right.

I don't have a muzzle........or interest, as I have done this in the past. Most of the time I got punked by my own dog. The dogs that didn't punk me were female and 1 male and they were not trained. Go figure. I found out about this many years ago, and used to do this with my dogs. Lost interest simply because I don't train for PP, and am not a cop. I do sport. LOL

The thing that needs to impressed upon the most here, is that you need to train for this, and if any one has, it is Jerry and his group. They probably do a lot of handler defense type scenarios, and so the dog has some training to draw upon to do the right thing.

Many people are a bit blind to what a dog is really capable of, and always will be. I personally do not expect a dog to help me in a situation where I am being attacked. I would expect them to be in the way, as I train for sport, and do not train for this stuff, as I really doubt the dog would be present for this event should it occur. Why would someone that is trying to rob someone go for the person with a big dog??? You would think that they would go for something easier.

I am not reading anywhere that people are getting jacked while walking their big ass dog anywhere. I would think that would be news that would be reported.


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## jay lyda

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Umm....Jay was that sarcasm???? Cause if it wasn't...I don't get it. I thought after viewing the videos that I had a good idea of what was needed and going on in training.
> 
> Courtney


It was. I went back AGAIN and watched the first vids and then ours. The only difference was they were bending over while punching and we were more on our knees while punching. So the difference of only inches of where the bad guys hind end is should not be the issue for where the dog is or is not targeting who to get. Actually in the first vids because of their position it should have been easier for the dogs to see there correct target, in ours it was a more tighter pic.


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## jay lyda

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The thing that needs to impressed upon the most here, is that you need to train for this, and if any one has, it is Jerry and his group. They probably do a lot of handler defense type scenarios, and so the dog has some training to draw upon to do the right thing.


You are right Jeff. We do a lot of training to where we put the dog in many different situations. We train them to clearly understand who and when bite. The only thing that was new to them was the muzzle. Prior to this day none of the dogs have ever worn one.


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## Courtney Guthrie

OK! Then I still get it. I will be trying it when I get back to my dogs. I'm 1200 miles away from them now! 

I think that the videos are pretty self explanatory if you watch them closely. 

courtney


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## Matthew Grubb

As far as addressing it goes… I have a few ideas, but they all go back to basic training and the way the muzzle is taught to the dog. I’ll put together some ideas over the next few days and start a new thread.


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## Jerry Lyda

Thanks Matthew, that is what I'm thinking too. Can't wait.


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## David Scholes

I did the test with my almost 8 month old puppy, aussie/catahoula female. I've only been doing obedience and some herding training with her so far. No protection yet. I'm the only one who does training with her and the bad guy was one of my son's friends a stranger to her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYbAWVKw-xg


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## Howard Knauf

jay lyda said:


> You are right Jeff. We do a lot of training to where we put the dog in many different situations. We train them to clearly understand who and when bite. The only thing that was new to them was the muzzle. Prior to this day none of the dogs have ever worn one.


 This is exactly what I do to fix this problem. It's really simple to reprogram the dog. If you train like this all the time it is a no brainer why the dogs did so well. You train like I problem solve. 

When it comes to handler protection training, most cops do very little so it's no wonder the results are negative in these situations. Once again Jeff is right (dammit!).....and here I thought he was taking a shot at PPD trainers. 

So...train in handler protection like PP trainers and the issue may never arise. Problem is, PSDs wear so many hats in their duty there just doesn't seem to be enough time to do it right as there are so many other areas to work on. This one is very important for sure.

So Jerry....bottom line, instinctual reaction but also a training issue??


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## David Scholes

David Scholes said:


> I did the test with my almost 8 month old puppy, aussie/catahoula female. I've only been doing obedience and some herding training with her so far. No protection yet. I'm the only one who does training with her and the bad guy was one of my son's friends a stranger to her.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYbAWVKw-xg


I was pleased she came into help. By her barking, I think she took it as serious at least initially. She was confused and targeted me but didn't bite. Just poked me with her muzzle and front paws. Not sure this proves anything but just one to add to the library. It may add to the theory that there is some kind of instinctual confusion about who to target.


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## Tanya Beka

David Scholes said:


> I was pleased she came into help. By her barking, I think she took it as serious at least initially. She was confused and targeted me but didn't bite. Just poked me with her muzzle and front paws. Not sure this proves anything but just one to add to the library. It may add to the theory that there is some kind of instinctual confusion about who to target.


David, thank you for trying to reproduce exactly and for sharing your results. She behaved as any dog who had never seen this situation would behave. Good work! Yes, instinctually dogs get confused when they see prey-type behavior on the ground at their level, even if it is you down there. Instinct takes over briefly and then you can use training to take over instinct. 

I think it is fascinating and shows us that our dogs don't think like we do, they think like DOGS! We need to remember that.

Beautiful dog, btw! Gorgeous coloring!


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## Gerry Grimwood

I tried it with my untrained 5 month old, he ran right through the "bad guys" legs and tried to shove his feet in my mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzAEixrwi8Y


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## Michelle Reusser

I wish I could do this with my dog but I don't have a muzzle yet and no way in hell I'm trying without one. I love testing my dog and seeing how he reacts to stuff, just to analize it and try and use that for future refference. 

Great job to those of you brave enough to try.


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## Matthew Grubb

Howard Knauf said:


> . Problem is, PSDs wear so many hats in their duty there just doesn't seem to be enough time to do it right as there are so many other areas to work on. This one is very important for sure


 
Obedience…. 
Tracking…
Building Search….
Article Search…..
Area Search……
Narcotics….
Outs….
Recalls….
Gunfire….
Suit Desensitization…..
Agility….. And I'm sure I'm missing a few things.

With only 4 hours of training time a week can you see where handler protection gets neglected?


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## Tanya Beka

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I tried it with my untrained 5 month old, he ran right through the "bad guys" legs and tried to shove his feet in my mouth.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzAEixrwi8Y


 I love it! Was he tryin to love you or eat you?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am not doing this until I get a muzzle. Gonna train tomorrow, so maybe they have a muzzle. I am gonna get pounded. I will film it, and reap the embarrassment.


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## Michele McAtee

Gerry, It appeared your assailant was doing CPR. LOL!
My hats off to you all for the videos...I KNOW my pup would maul me when on the ground. Instinct...hell, he bites me all up when I'm standing up!


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## Jerry Lyda

These videos are an absolute blast. These young dogs are so much fun to watch but that is where you start to train this, fantastic. I see the young dogs doing what they have been doing anyway with their owners. Now you all know you get down and play fight with your dogs. I would suggest against that when the bite work starts. As pups we all do it, heck it's fun for them and us.

Jeff, go get'em. Don't worry about embarrassment. This is where it gets fun. Can't wait to see your vid.


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## jay lyda

Im sure that your dog will have fun doing it Jeff. He might see it as pay back time. :razz: LOL


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## Mike Scheiber

Matthew Grubb said:


> Obedience….
> Tracking…
> Building Search….
> Article Search…..
> Area Search……
> Narcotics….
> Outs….
> Recalls….
> Gunfire….
> Suit Desensitization…..
> Agility….. And I'm sure I'm missing a few things.
> 
> With only 4 hours of training time a week can you see where handler protection gets neglected?


This would be one problem I think I would get figured out.
I would compare it to my service gun occasionally blowing powder back in my face. 
How ever I am not a LEO or a K9 handler and I do understand this is how you make your living and you can only use the hand your dealt.


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## Howard Knauf

Once the patrol dog is on the street it should never see another sleeve unless it's there to protect the decoy for safety reasons in certain training scenarios. When training a street ready dog, scenario training is the only way to go. That way you can touch on multiple training areas in one scenario. For example.....car pursuit, track from abandoned vehicle, apprehension, then handler protection during the apprehension. Once finished, do a drug search on the abandoned vehicle.

This is a realistic scenario. I know because I've done it for real. So now you have trained in four different exercises in about 15-20 minutes; the dog gets a realistic look at his future as a PSD and the team has defeated the bad guy and won the day. It's good for the dogs cardio, keeps him thinking in real time and builds confidence in the team. Good stuff.


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## Jerry Lyda

Matthew, we train our dogs on the list that you provided. We do this because we compete in APPDA. This is American Protection Police Dog Assoc. Some people in our org. don't but our dogs are trained on both sides PPD and PSD. This makes for a better rounded dog IMHO. Much more of a challenge. We are starting an APPDA-UK as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Im sure that your dog will have fun doing it Jeff. He might see it as pay back time.

For what??


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## Jerry Lyda

For that one time you were late feeding him. LOL


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## jay lyda

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Im sure that your dog will have fun doing it Jeff. He might see it as pay back time.
> 
> For what??


For you being Jeff. LOL


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## Al Curbow

I got 10 bucks that says Buko doesn't bite Jeff, lol


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## jay lyda

I hope that he doesn't. What do you think Jeff?


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## Michelle Reusser

No way I'd touch that bet. I wouldn't even bet on my own dog not bitting me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Probably just sit there and wonder why I am letting this guy beat on me. LOL

I am going to give it a shot. He has never been in a muzzle, that will be interesting, I can see him trying to take it off, and succeeding.

Got to find one that will fit his beak. Still think he will just sit there. Am I supposed to give him a command ?? I don't remember.


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## David Scholes

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .... Still think he will just sit there. Am I supposed to give him a command ?? I don't remember.


If he just sits there:lol:.


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## Jerry Lyda

That's the spirt Jeff.


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## Ken Thompson

Jerry, I know who I want to train my dogs in bite work. How busy are you?   Great videos !!!


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## jay lyda

Thanks Ken. So how have you, the misses and the dogs been. So did you want to try this with Bear? :mrgreen:


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## Ken Thompson

Hi Jay, I think it would be good to finish Bear's training and start on Sabre's. I am keeping one of Bear's and Sabre's pups. I only have four left and I hate to let them go.    Sometime before the hot weather gets here maybe we can get together.


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## jay lyda

Any time Ken, we'd love to have you and to see you again.


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## Gerry Grimwood

I was just looking around and saw this, thought it might be relevant to this topic even after considering the source.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/274833.html


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I was just looking around and saw this, thought it might be relevant to this topic even after considering the source.
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/274833.html


Very few facts but the few that are presented it could be a case of nature trying weed out the stupid. 8)


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Any chance of uploading the original video again? I'd like to see it. When the dogs have done bitework where the decoy goes to the ground a lot that's what causes it.


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