# How much raw should I feed my pup?



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I currently feed my nearly 5-month old pup 9 ounces of either ground chicken, beef or turkey along with 3 ounces of shredded vegetables such as carrots, green beans, brocolli and spinach. A mixture of yogurt, raw egg and olive oil is added to each meal. She is fed this 3 times per day and at dinner she receives 1000 mg. of vitamin c, cod oil and a couple of other supplements that my breeder recommended. She weighs a lean 39 lbs. 

I'm getting ready to make her meals for the next two weeks which I then freeze and then thaw daily as needed. I'm going to increase her meat intake to 12 ounces per meal. Do you think this is about right or too much/too little? Thanks.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Are you feeding any raw bones???? Those are absolutely VITAL to the raw diet. Her bones will be brittle without them. You mention ground chicken/beef/turkey, if thats all muscle meat then its not a correct diet at all.

When I fed raw I fed 70% chicken backs/necks, 25% muscle meats (ground chicken/turkey) and 5% organ meats (gizzards, livers, hearts).

I fed the organ meats about 4 days a week, on the other 3 days I added an extra 5% of the muscle meats.

The bulk or "foundation" of the meal was the chicken backs and necks.

For supplements, Vit E + Vit C + Salmon Oil + Glucosamine. Flax seed oil is also good.

You NEED to get those bone meats in there. Chicken backs and necks are ideal because they are easy to digest and the perfect ratio of bone to meat.

Feeding quantity for puppies is 5-10% of their body weight. Adjust as neccesary to keep them lean but healthy. This usually fell right around 7-8% of the body weight for me.

You can use chicken wings/leg quarters for now since its readily available at Publix, but I would get in touch with DeLoach's meat mart in Casselberry and order up some chicken backs. It is about 18c per lb so very cheap feeding for the dogs. They will order you a 50lb or 100lbs and have it ready for pickup the next day.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks Mike!


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2008)

The ground meat is not vital. The boney meats are.

Chicken leg quarters, chicken wings, drumsticks, chicken necks, chicken backs, turkey necks, pork neck, pork rib, venison ribs, rabbits, gerbils, whatever.

Plus, all that is way cheaper than ground muscle meat anyway!

Plus the sheer enjoyment they seem to experience from being occupied with boney matter.

I can plop down a frozen deer head, and he'll be blissfully occupied for 1.5 hours.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

On another note, her vet is a big advocate of a raw diet but he doesn't believe bones are nutritionally necessary and actually recommends NOT feeding bones because of the potential of an injury. 

I used to feed her raw chicken legs and she inhaled them, literally, whole. It's like they just slid down her throat and then she was ready for another and another... 

I think I will pick up some chicken backs!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

A vet that said not to feed bones? I would look for a new vet.
Edit: Or stop discussing diet with them. My vet would have me feeding Hills if it were up to her, but she is very good about everything else.

Check your PM's Patrick.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I have found that vets are just programmed to say these things about bones. Mine inhales as well, but I give leg quarters and the size requires them to be chewed up.

There just isn't a risk with raw bones. 

I never could find backs myself.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The MAJORITY of vets are the last people you want to discuss diet or behaviour with. 
Hopefully that's turning a bit. At least with diet.


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## Mike Smith (Apr 1, 2008)

Hi
A vet who is an advocate of raw feeding, not recommending meaty bones for dogs

What a load of old tripe (pun intended) do wolves go down to the butchers and order mince or best steak?


The amount of raw to give a dog is usually given as 2 to 3 % of ideal adult body weight per day, but a hard going working dog will need at least twice maybe three times that amount, pups are of course fed this in several meals per day

In practice however the amount given depends on the dog I am always adjusting the amounts my dogs are fed, nothing is writ in stone.... save for this easy rule

......if it is thin...... feed more...... up to 10% extra
..... if it is fat ......feed less......Down by 10% less
Re-assess the dog a week later 


( Now why oh why can't I practice that for myself, maybe I need a good handler to take me on )

There are as many different ways to feed raw as there are raw feeders, do your own research and good luck


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I typically feed 2.5% of target body weight to adults, but 8% of current body weight to pups.


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## Frank Smego (Feb 29, 2008)

I think discussing RAW diet is almost like tring to discuss *religion* and *politics. *

I agree with the meaty bone comments, I don't completely agree muscle meat isn't important. Varity is important feed meat, fish & poultry and organ meats are vilal. 

I don't agree with feeding any concentrated suppliments ie. pills & powers. It is not natural for ANY mammal to take in high concentrations of chemical nutriants, the liver, kidneys, gall bladder were not designed to handle high loads on a regular basis.

I also find it funny how unlogical it is to feed a RAW then feel the need for pills.

I give 60-70% ground fruit & veggies with my 30-40% meat-meaty bone feedings. I try to keep the Muscle meats 30% fat. A single egg shell has 2000mg of Cal. Spinich, Kale & Swiss chad are full of Cal. as is Plain yogurt.
Those dark leafy veggies along with Brocolli also are full of Iron & cancer fighting anti-oxidents. Fruits like pineapple, mango provide vit. c and enzimes. Apples, sweet potato, beets provide fiber.

Puppies should have More Cal. during Teething as the developemt of adult teeth does robe cal. from the bones & joints. That can be accomplished with an Egg shell & Yogurt.

RAW/BARF feeding is ment to be looked at on a weelky basis NOT daily. Also Adult dogs do bennifit from an occcasional fast.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

You sure have a high ratio of fruit to meat. Given that meat is the primary source of metabolic energy not vegetation, that seems really out of balance to me.

Dogs don't process carbs like we do. And we don't process protein the way they do.


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## Frank Smego (Feb 29, 2008)

Ted - I realize that My thoughts are a bit radical for some. I do feel the condition of my dogs does bear out the bennifits.

Meaty bones are a good part of a dog's, I feed them on a regular basis, The down side is the high phosporius & ash levels with do tax the kidneys.

From another website forum:

www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu
"In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes (Ref. 2)."

Managing a Renal Crisis by Martha S. Gearhart, DVM 
". . . at least one study has taken several groups of dogs in kidney failure and fed them diets that varied in protein level and phosphorus level. The groups with severely restricted phosphorus lived longer than the groups with normal or high levels of phosphorus. The protein intake made no difference at all in longevity. . . . 
"It is important to remember that phosphorus is more important than protein -- feeding vegetables or salt-free crackers to a dog in kidney failure will not add protein but it will add phosphorus." 

Visit the above quoted thread here: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48372&highlight=orijen+calcium+phosphorus



You are correct that a dog's GI track is short than a humans. I believe the reason ground (puree) Veggies & Fruits work is the grinding process compinsates for the short intestinal lenght in a dog. Also, we are adding enzimes to the mix (Pro-zime). The cancer fighting bennits of Kale alone are worth taking advantage of.

The insides of a dog are the same as the insides of a wolf. The DNA is the same. Wolfs do ingest partiaclly digested plant matter when the gut is eaten.

Something that I've seen people denie, then post about feeding green tripe...:mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Wolves get some fiber bennifit from the fur of the prey. Wolves also burn much more food calories that domestic dogs. Even biking a dog 4-5 miles can not compare to a wolf's patrol of it's natrual range (50 + sq. miles)in calorie consumptioin. Wolves also do not eat daily. The hunt, gourge, rest...repeat. Thier internal organs do not work daily on processing foods like meat & bones witch take a lot of metabolic engery to break down.

We have more regular demands on our dogs. Also, we hope to have our dog live longer than wolfs do in the wild.

I have a 3 1/2 Rotty bitch with OFA execlent rated hip & Clear elbow that runs 4-6 mile several days a week with me(Mtn. Bike) We are training for the AD.

I had a Malamute that I truely believe this diet & conditioning extened his life a soild year(Renal failure). He was still running 4 miles with BUN levels at 85, at 104 our VET could not believe the test results were correct due to his condition. I was told that dog wouldn't make 6 mos before I put him on this diet, he lived 18mos(not mearly survied)...He only got meaty bones once a month for his teeth & gums.

I had a 11 y.o. Catahoula that had a large Soft cancer mass removed. This dog also had displastic hips. He had a good quality of life until 13 years.

IMHO the wise dog owner looks ar all the options for feeding and remembers everyone selling something has motives($$$).

Just like Mon used to say, "Eat your vegitables, they are good for you"


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I have no issue with the bone component of your posts. Nor the occasional fast.

Simply the proportion of vegetation (30%) relative to RMB/organs (70%)

I'm not sure it's ever been proven that they eat the contents of the GI. Tends to be so acidic as to ender the contents unappetizing. I feed veg / fruit cooked and pureed: as you said their GI system is short so I try to increase the surface area for absorption.

Obviously they're omnivores, but a given a wolf's natural high proportion of meat to veggies, which I'm speculating MAY be 95% prey to 5% vegetation, I'm curious what the rationale is to swing to 30% vegetation. That's not a criticism, I'm curious.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Are you feeding any raw bones???? Those are absolutely VITAL to the raw diet. Her bones will be brittle without them. You mention ground chicken/beef/turkey, if thats all muscle meat then its not a correct diet at all.
> 
> When I fed raw I fed 70% chicken backs/necks, 25% muscle meats (ground chicken/turkey) and 5% organ meats (gizzards, livers, hearts).
> 
> ...


Patrick: This is very close to how I feed as well. The only difference is in addition to the chicken necks and backs, I rotate whole venison necks, lamb necks, pork necks & ground beef muscle & bone.

I supplement same as Mike.


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## John Andrews (Apr 3, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Patrick: This is very close to how I feed as well. The only difference is in addition to the chicken necks and backs, I rotate whole venison necks, lamb necks, pork necks & ground beef muscle & bone.
> 
> I supplement same as Mike.


Same here!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Simply the proportion of vegetation (30%) relative to RMB/organs (70%)


I think you got it backwards Ted. If I read Frank's post correctly, he feeds 60-70% VEGGIES. Thats an aweful lot of vegetation IMO.




> Obviously they're omnivores, but a given a wolf's natural high proportion of meat to veggies


I thought they were carnivores?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think so, Mike. This is a pretty good article about it:
http://www.thewholedog.org/artcarnivores.html


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Frank Smego said:


> I give 60-70% ground fruit & veggies with my 30-40% meat-meaty bone feedings. I try to keep the Muscle meats 30% fat.


This seems a bit much. I've never seen such a high content of vegetable matter promoted for a raw diet. I wonder how long I'd have to starve my (very discriminating) mals to get them to eat all those vegetables... 

Then again, I know a veggie-health-food-nut gal who has her cocker on a vegetarian diet, and the dog is still alive at 7 years old. Fat, out of shape, with nasty nasty teeth, and yeast infections everywhere, and lots of fleas. But still alive. They are a lot more adaptable than we give them credit...

Personally I feed RAW prey model, which includes whole animals whenever possible. I have yet to find a rat, rabbit, mouse or guinea pig composed of 70% vegetable matter :mrgreen: 

The reason for vitamin E and fish oil is to replace Omega3 fatty acids - what their prey animals would contain in nature, but that commercially grown do not because of the grain-fed farming methods.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Wow! This is really an interesting and eye-opening thread, at least for me. I'm certainly going to reconsider my pup's diet. 

On another note I can't help to laugh when I look back on the diet of the dog I grew up with, Barney. Barney was a 75 lb. mutt that we adopted in 1977 from an animal rescue organization when I was 12 years of age. We lived in the country outside of Columbus, Ohio and for years we roamed the fields and woods that surrounded us. 

I don't remember what kibble we fed him, it might have been Dog Chow but I don't really remember. I DO remember that he ate the leftovers from just about every dinner we ever had, including the chicken and steak bones that we obviously could not eat. If I only had a dollar for every cooked bone that dog ate! 

Barney was eventually put down at the age of 14. Up until the very end he was an extraordinarily active and happy dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Okay, a couple of things:

I don't care what the propaganda sites say, from both a biological and a nutritional perspective...*DOGS AND WOLVES ARE NOT CARNIVORES*. They are carnivorous omnivores. Even obligate carnivores like ferrets and cats need to eat the whole prey animal to get everything they need. Muscle meat and bone by itself is not sufficient. Even my snakes (obligate carnivores if there ever was one) get some plant material in the GI tracts of the rodents they eat whole. If all you do is feed muscle meat without feeding appropriate organ meat (including the GI tract), you will run into problems. I don't mind informed raw diets, but there some things I can't just let slide.

Whole prey is in my opinion the best way to go (and often the cheapest). My favorite is getting whole chickens (with giblets if possible) for around $0.80 a pound or cheaper or even better, whole turkeys at $0.50 a pound. I cut the 4-5 lbs chicken in half and each dog gets a half and with the turkey, the liver, heart, and gizzard are divided in portions so each dog gets a little. 

Even my nutrition professor and the nutrition resident found it hard to argue with that. \\/ Adults are usually fine with about 1.5-3% (depending on what you're feeding and their activity level, etc), but pups will need more. Basically to figure out how many (kilo)calories your dog need, I highly recommend playing with these two sites:

http://www.mycockerspaniel.com/mer.htm
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Like for example, if you want to feed chicken quarters raw, you'd type in something like "chicken raw" and select "[SIZE=-1]Chicken, broilers or fryers, dark meat, meat and skin, raw[/SIZE]" and you can play around with how many kcals you're going to need. But keep in mind that feeding with body condition score is more important because of individual variation. Since humans don't tend to eat bones, it also doesn't count the calcium from the bones in there either. 

I saw cod liver oil mentioned. This should be fed very sparingly as it is very high in vitamin A and you can end up with hypervitaminosis. I hope the breeder meant fish oil and not fish liver oil.

This may also be helpful as a resource: 

http://books.google.com/books?id=aqeCwxbRWvsC


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I feed the same as Mike as well, Where's Connie anyway ??


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't know where she is. She is much missed!


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## Mike Smith (Apr 1, 2008)

Hi
If Frank is feeding a large amount of veg it does not matter because unless he is smashing the cells down to break the cell walls in the veg matter his dog/s cannot digest the veg anyway 

He is just putting stuff in that is not being digested and it just comes out of the other end undigested as waste. So his true feed ratio of veg to meat is perhaps closer to what some people would consider normal for a carnivore am I correct or am I correct?

Fibre content from veg is not neccessary dogs get all the fibre they need from collagen

Come in Frank...........................anyone


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I think she got mauled by a police dog or something like that. Attempting to steal the Pink Panther diamond no doubt.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> I don't know where she is. She is much missed!



She posted elsewhere that she broke her hand training so perhaps typing is difficult at present.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Bah, I liked the diamond theory better 

Yes, she has 3 fractures on her right hand. I told her she should post in the Handler Injuries thread 

She should be back tomorrow.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh man, that sounds like it was a nasty accident. Hope she spills the goods.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Well, If you want to get all technical and everything there is this one:
http://rawfeddogs.net/Terms


They have many fine recipes for RAW such as:
http://rawfeddogs.net/RecipeDetail/58


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## Frank Smego (Feb 29, 2008)

Ted - "I'm not sure it's ever been proven that they eat the contents of the GI. Tends to be so acidic as to ender the contents unappetizing."

I've been a hunter for 35 years. I've seen what a wolf pack did to a Caribou we didn't recover before dark in Quebec. The only recognizable part of the internal organs a bit of the esophagus & stomach. I've tracked deer with friends that show the simalar patter by Coyotes here in Illinois. I've also seen this evidence by Jackels in South Africa. 

While I understand that my observations are not scientific method, I still tend to believe my own eyes.

I've also boar hunted with Curs & Hounds and watched as they took the interanal organs from field dressed boar with delight. The intestional "Tripe sausage" did seem to be quite the prize.:mrgreen: 

Veggie & Fruit are high mositure content foods. I use them as a complement to the Meaty bones & Meat *NOT *as a substitue. I do keep my dogs lean and the do a lot of conditioning.

I didn't mentiuon that I also use Fish, Olive,Flax oil it add fat to the diet.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

For small prey (small birds, rodents, rabbits), they would be most likely to eat the animal whole. For larger prey, like deer or bison, from what I hear, they typically shake out the stomach contents on the ground. However, the ruminant stomach of a deer or bison (or elk or cow or goat, etc) has a lot of projections for some amazing surface area. I know from scooping out a cow stomach of both our dissection animal in anatomy lab and a fistulated cow that unless you have a power hose, you're not going to be able to get all the stomach contents completely clean and there will be little bits of plant goodness stuck to the 4 compartments of the rumen, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Here's a handy calculator that determines what 2-8% of the dog's weight is in kg's or lbs.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I think you got it backwards Ted. If I read Frank's post correctly, he feeds 60-70% VEGGIES. Thats an aweful lot of vegetation IMO.


I did have that ass backwards


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I saw cod liver oil mentioned. This should be fed very sparingly as it is very high in vitamin A and you can end up with hypervitaminosis. I hope the breeder meant fish oil and not fish liver oil.


I hope so too. Maren's whole post is spot on, but this needs highlighting. Fish body oil, not fish liver oil, if you are going to give any kind of a useful dose.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Frank Smego said:


> I also find it funny how unlogical it is to feed a RAW then feel the need for pills.


But I don't consider fish oil and the E needed to process it as "pills" .... I see the modern grain-fed slaughter-animal diet as being unnaturally (and very recently) lopsided and heavy in Omega 6s. There are now very few ways to correct that without long-chain Omega 3s from marine sources.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

That's interesting Connie. So the grain fed diets of cattle and chickens requires Om3 to balance? When you say "correct", are you saying balance? Is there a balancing needed or simply a source for Om3 ?

I guess I'm asking if you have to increase Om3 because the Om6 is so high?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> That's interesting Connie. So the grain fed diets of cattle and chickens requires Om3 to balance? When you say "correct", are you saying balance? Is there a balancing needed or simply a source for Om3 ?
> 
> I guess I'm asking if you have to increase Om3 because the Om6 is so high?


Grass-fed slaughter animals had Omega 3s stored in their flesh and fat.

Slaughter animals are now very 6-heavy. Poultry, too.

Human and canine diets are now much heavier in 6s than 3s. 6s promote the formation of a group of inflammation-triggering hormones, and 3s promote the formation of a group of inflammation-controlling hormones.

Inflammation is a necessary healing response, but inflammation run amok is a major factor in such ailments as diabetes, arthritis, and many more.

So yes, in answer to your question.

I'm sorry this is so ridiculously oversimplified, because this is a vital aspect of a good diet.

But my right hand is broken and still swollen, so typing is horrible. (And yes, I DO realize how ridiculous it is to have three fractures from a HANDLING mishap; imagine what I could do as a decoy! :lol: )


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I'm awfully sorry to hear about your hand, Connie. I bet that was terrible.

Your post is interesting, since I may be living through some sort of inflammatory response with my pooch.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ted, this breaks down what Connie is talking about (and she's spot on). 

http://www.eatwild.com/healthbenefits.htm

Whether it is carnivore, omnivore, or herbivore, you will not be as healthy if you are not eating a species appropriate. Therefore it makes sense that if the cattle and chickens we (and our dogs) consume are not eating an ideal diet, they aren't either. The portion of the website where you can look up local farmers and producers that pasture raise and finish their animals is a wonderful resource.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

That is as frightening as it is enlightening. Glad I take a fish oil when my dog gets one.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

"From that website:

On the molecular level, CLA resembles another type of fat called "linoleic acid" or LA. (Both CLA and LA have 18 carbon atoms and two double bonds holding the chain together. The main difference is in the placement of those bonds.) However, CLA and LA appear to have opposite effects on the human body. For example, LA promotes tumor growth but CLA blocks it."

Is this true? CLA is directly from grassfeeding.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> "From that website:
> 
> On the molecular level, CLA resembles another type of fat called "linoleic acid" or LA. (Both CLA and LA have 18 carbon atoms and two double bonds holding the chain together. The main difference is in the placement of those bonds.) However, CLA and LA appear to have opposite effects on the human body. For example, LA promotes tumor growth but CLA blocks it."
> 
> Is this true? CLA is directly from grassfeeding.


 I've read about the suppression effect of conjugated linoleic acid (an enzymatic conversion of linoleic acid) on breast cancer cells, but don't have any great understanding of it.

Or, in fact, any understanding at all of the mechanism.


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## Frank Smego (Feb 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> But I don't consider fish oil and the E needed to process it as "pills" .... I see the modern grain-fed slaughter-animal diet as being unnaturally (and very recently) lopsided and heavy in Omega 6s. There are now very few ways to correct that without long-chain Omega 3s from marine sources.


Connie - I was referring to high dose cal. or Vit. C in particular that seem to invouge currently.

To Ted and others that questioned the ammount of Veg & Fruit in my feeding program, I've reread my post and I see that I wasn't very clear or accurate in my writting, please acept my apologies.

When I make up batch of BARF I puree 75% Veg to 25% Fruit. That prueed mixture is mixed with Fish, Foul or Meat in a 2 to 1 ratio. Which is about APPX. 70%-30% Veg/Fruit to Meat. per my origanal post. Also, I view cooking as an art, not a science project hence my ammounts are not stictly measured.

Were I was in error is not being clear about my feeding program overall. I really look at feeding on a weeklly basis NOT Daily. What I sould have commented on is the fact that there are several Meaty bone feeding each, week, several muscle meat(Fish, Foul or Meat) each week. Along with the BARF mix. Concidering the weekly diet I run more toward a 40%(V/F)-60 %(M) to a mix. Which does fluctuate based on conditioning load. 


In a very subjective and Non-Scientific observation, I find my dogs best preformance is see with more strachy/fruit ratio BARF for a meal or two PRIOR to hard conditioning, followed by a meaty bone/muscle meat meal to hasten recovey. The next feeding always includeds yogurt. 

Again my apologies for not presenting my thoughts eariler in a clear manner.


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## amadolabonte (Aug 21, 2021)

Hello all, I'm looking to adopt a ferret in the next couple of months, and I wanna make sure I know as much as I can before I do. So without further ado, here are my questions.

What cage size is best recommended?
where should I adopt from?
do they need another ferret to be with them, or is human companionship socially enough?
What is the best way to deal with the smell?
What toys are best?
How long will it take for them to be comfortable in new surroundings?
How well do they do with other animals, like dogs per se?
How often do they need to be bathed and let out to run freely? And any other tips would be greatly appreciated, thank you! (I apologize if this is not the right place to post this)

ferret grooming


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