# Jak bitework 11/19/06



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Today, we started doing things a little differently with Jak since his biting is still not perfect on the sleeve. At the end of the last video, you can see where I tried to get him to carry and he just wanted to lay on the sleeve and eat it. He did carry it to the car last weekend, but we were halfway there when the helper slipped it, and he dropped it as soon as he got to the crate. It was cold; don't laugh at my tobaggan! :lol:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Kristen...in the first video...the decoy should not feed the sleeve as a reward for a shallow bite. Put some pressure on your dog - by pulling back on the lead - let him re-bite fully...and then feed the sleeve. This teaches your dog to bite with a full mouth.

Also, don't run towards your dog unless he's biting something/someone you DON'T want him to bite. Don't stomp your feet. Your dog can feel if YOUR focus is on him or on the decoy. Keep your focus on the decoy...and be firmly subtle about your dog handling. If you focus on your dog, he will focus on you.

If you want your dog to carry...or be more prey focused...the decoy work and training you've posted will never get it done. NEVER. Your dog will "carry" if he's trained to focus on the sleeve; and become possessive of the sleeve.

I hate, HATE, jute sleeves...because you can't tell if your dog's bite improves...unless your dog bites very well. It's also very difficult to improve bites with jute.

Finally, I prefer for sport dogs to be crazy about biting...so I frustrate always; I keep the tempo way up; I use suit material for the sleeves...so the dog slips off; I chase the decoy away, or the decoy goes to the ground...always one of the two. I don't choke them off, so a decoy nonchalantly grabs the sleeve again.

Before starting a sport dog...I try to decide if the dog will be a "control issue" or a "motivation issue". And even if it's a control issue...I try to develop the crazy desire to bite. I don't see any crazy behavior in your dog's videos...so I would frankly concentrate on bite development...ONLY. I wouldn't mix Obedience training with protection yet.

Anyways...as always...NICE DOG!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks for the input!!!  

In that first video, he wasn't supposed to get that first bite; it was supposed to be a pass-by, but he just barely got it and I DID try pulling back as hard as I could, but the TD told the helper to slip it so I could get him off because he was on the elbow. Also, in that same video, that was the first long bite Jak had ever done, and when I approached him, I spoke to him (said Good boy) and that's when he came off the bite. He did go right back on, though, so that's good, right? I didn't know to slow down more as I got up to him.  




> Your dog will "carry" if he's trained to focus on the sleeve; and become possessive of the sleeve.


I thought Jak _was_ focused on the sleeve. In the past, when the sleeve has been slipped and he's been choked off of it, it's been kicked just out of his reach and the helper has approached slowly, as if he was trying to steal the sleeve away and when Jak barked at him, he would run away. Like I said, I thought this was teaching him to be possessive of it. Was it not? 


He usually bites well initially, but then starts getting munchy while on the bite, like he's trying to squish it, not like he's trying to let go. Most of the time, the bite stays full, it's just not solid I guess. Does that even make sense? I wish we could get a close-up of him on the bite, but I don't think we can. The helper said a couple of weeks ago that Jak prefers to bite a specific place on the sleeve, and if he doesn't hit that spot when he bites, then he munches his way over to it. I don't know what kind of sleeve is being used (ie: puppy sleeve, medium, ect.)


There is no obedience in Jak's bitework yet. I have sort of been working on fuss with him at home, but I don't give any commands or leash corrections (aside from the choking off the sleeve, which some have said is a correction) during bitework - only praise. 


Since I got Jessie (and since it's gotten colder), Jak's been spending a LOT more time in his kennel. I think I only had him out for about 3 hours total this whole week (not counting training today). Do you think that will help or hurt him as far as doing bitework?

Do you really think he's a nice dog, despite the issues, or are you just saying that? :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with Andres. The dog is being rewarded for way to many shallow bites. That initial first bite on the elbow should have never gotten the dog the sleeve until the helper got him to regrip. Same with the other bites.
Although possesiveness is a good thing to have in the dog, we try and get the dog to focus on the "game".
Thunder didn't become possessive of the sleeve till 16-18 months old. He always spit it out and refocused on the helper. Not a bad thing at all.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Keeping the dog kenneled will probably help him. When he's in the kennel he becomes bored and restless. When he comes out and goes straight to work he'll take all that pent up energy and use it while training. Several hours before I train I like to put my dog in the kennel for this reason, it works well for her. 

As far as getting the dog to carry, the decoy is going about this all wrong. It looks to me like he is just throwing the sleeve down at the dog. I wouldn't really call that slipping the sleeve. He has to have the dog with a full bite on the sleeve and run with him, that includes you running behind with slack in the line, and then SLIP the sleeve, meaning decoy slows down and the dog slides the sleeve right off his arm while still running and you just let him keep running. It might not happen perfect the first time but keep doing it and it will work. As you run a circle and come back DON'T immediately choke the dog off. Let him hold the sleeve as long as he wants, but don't let him lay down and chew it. He will start to hold it longer and then the decoy should come up to him and play tug with the sleeve and then put his arm back in and work the dog a little and still making sure that he has a full bite slip the sleeve again and run him in a circle. When you're ready then choke him off the sleeve and then the decoy should frustrate the heck out of him and then give him a bite. Lots of frustration. What this will do is build the dogs possessiveness over the sleeve. 

By the way Jak DOES look nice, remember I've seen him in Spartanburg! I can't remember but its seems like I got to work him.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Take this with a pinch of salt (I am a a novice), but I agree with the others that changing the decoy work could help. I would expect to see more fast movement closer in front of the dog to really build the frustration so that the hit is harder. Our decoy is very fit and with the young/novice dogs he really works hard to get them going.

With the slipping of the sleeve, I know our club decoy would have a line attached to that sleeve, so that as soon as the sleeve is slipped he could maintain tension and run alongside you as you run the dog around. He can then keep that sleeve tension and reel in so that he can get back into the sleeve and start the fight again - your dog has no chance to put the sleev down or chew on it.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Since I got Jessie (and since it's gotten colder), Jak's been spending a LOT more time in his kennel. I think I only had him out for about 3 hours total this whole week (not counting training today). Do you think that will help or hurt him as far as doing bitework?


I don't understand how this would help, I would think it would make the dog frustrated and bored, yeah...but if his only outlet are those sleeve exercises...that frustration and boredom might just end up being holes in your yard or your drywall rather than a firmer grip. I'm not sure why you'd not be doing daily drive- and grip-building work. Balls, tugs, something to get focus (and in the case of my dog) and provide an outlet. My dog would not hold up well if three hours plus training club day were it for the week. I had to back up to an hour or so of actual focused play and work a day for my house dog and she's still got plenty left.

Cold?!?!?!?! In Western North Carolina???? :-({|=


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

At 8:30 in the morning, yes it was cold!  :lol: 



> I'm not sure why you'd not be doing daily drive- and grip-building work.


Because I was told not to do anything bitework-related with him at home.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> At 8:30 in the morning, yes it was cold!  :lol:


Don't move to the Northern Midwest, or Ontario.




> Because I was told not to do anything bitework-related with him at home.


What was their rationale there? They worried about the dog or worried about how you were playing with him?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> I know our club decoy would have a line attached to that sleeve, so that as soon as the sleeve is slipped he could maintain tension and run alongside you as you run the dog around. He can then keep that sleeve tension and reel in so that he can get back into the sleeve and start the fight again - your dog has no chance to put the sleeve down or chew on it.


This is the proper way to do it, in addition to Oscar level performances by your decoy, rewarding with, "Ughh's!", "Owww's!", stumbles & falls, body slack, eye contact "On" and "Off", etc., etc. during your dog's grip and fight.



> I'm not sure why you'd not be doing daily drive- and grip-building work. Balls, tugs, something to get focus (and in the case of my dog) and provide an outlet.


Daily bite work - if not done right - risks becoming repetitive and boring, thus turning into a mechanical exercise lacking in zest, fight and power. There should be a difference between bite work and play.



> Also, in that same video, that was the first long bite Jak had ever done, and when I approached him, I spoke to him (said Good boy) and that's when he came off the bite. He did go right back on, though, so that's good, right? I didn't know to slow down more as I got up to him.


I also wanted to share with you, Kristen, that usually on a dog's first long bites, the decoy does not catch the dog frontally. The best way to teach a young dog the long bite, is for the decoy to be running HARD away from the dog, and the handler does not let go of the long line. This develops speed of entry and excitement in your dog, while diminishing possible negatives like defensive posturing, anxiety, etc.

Finally, if you used a suit material sleeve cover, that would slip from the dog if he didn't bite down hard, allowing the decoy to LEAVE the area, and NOT giving the dog another bite, you would soon find YOUR dog clamping down hard and much more intense. Bear in mind MOST people say they want "intense" but really don't. From the videos you've posted, I see a bunch of potential in your dog.

I don't want to criticize your decoy; it's meant constructively. And just to be fair and balanced, your training director's intensity while your dog is engaged in bitework needs to be higher. Your dog knows him, and he's with you and your dog "on the same side" of the leash. He should not stand around like it's tea-time, chatting. He should also focus on the decoy.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

> I'm not sure why you'd not be doing daily drive- and grip-building work. Balls, tugs, something to get focus (and in the case of my dog) and provide an outlet.


Daily bite work - if not done right - risks becoming repetitive and boring, thus turning into a mechanical exercise lacking in zest, fight and power. There should be a difference between bite work and play.[/quote]

Meant bite work in the context of play. Ob and reward with tug. Don't let them get the tug every time, produce "misses" by yanking the tug out of reach but in line of attack, etc. Always in the context of play. Make them bite hard on the tug once they get it, don't let them reset bite, etc.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Tug/play with the owner does not translate to manwork.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Don't move to the Northern Midwest, or Ontario.


 :lol: I don't plan on it. I'm not a fan of being cold. 




> > I was told not to do anything bitework-related with him at home.
> 
> 
> What was their rationale there? They worried about the dog or worried about how you were playing with him?


I'm not exactly sure, but it's probably because of me being completely new to the sport, and not knowing _how_ to play with him in a constructive way. I guess.



Andres, I will try to mention some of the things you said (mainly the part about using suit material on the sleeve) next time we train, and try to do it in a way that doesn't put the TD or helper on the defensive. The helper has actually made the same suggestion Ian made, about using the line on the sleeve to keep tension on it after it's slipped, but it's never been done. In the first video, the TD told me to "just let go" of the leash, so that's what I did. In the 2nd video, he showed me how to let it slide through my hands with a little tension. I do realize you aren't trying to necessarily criticize the helper or the TD, but I agree with you. Our TD is guilty a lot of the time of being pretty ho-hum during training.  And I don't know what I'm doing, so I don't know when to be excited and when not to be!  :lol: 


Jay, I think you did get to work him a little bit in Spartanburg, but I can't remember. Weren't there two of you doing decoy work that night? You'll get to see him and Jessie at the ASR trial next weekend. I'm just coming to watch, but I'll have them both with me. I'm going to try and get as early a start as I can on Friday (my cousin is coming with me and she is NOT a morning person) so we can get down there before it gets dark.




Oh, one last question: what kind of tug would be best to use at home?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Tug/play with the owner does not translate to manwork.


What's manwork?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Dog biting a decoy.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Dog biting a decoy.


That was sarcasm. "Manwork" sounds like a interesting disco bar. So you see no benefit or skill transfer from day-to-day tug in the context of play to a dog biting a decoy? Or more importantly, no possible bad behaviors that could be carried into it?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Oh, one last question: what kind of tug would be best to use at home?


I like the Ultra Mini-Tug Ray Allen sells...it's the smallest one I can find that's durable...12X2.5 inches with two handles and it fits in pockets and my vest...what I like in particular about this one is the thickness of the handles, doesn't seem like as much "burn" as the ones with a thin strip of nylon. These seem easier to hold for my soft surgeon's hands. Synthetic material.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> "Manwork" sounds like a interesting disco bar.


Woody, manwork in the context of a club...sounds like a gay establishment. Not interesting to me.



> So you see no benefit or skill transfer from day-to-day tug in the context of play to a dog biting a decoy? Or more importantly, no possible bad behaviors that could be carried into it?


Sure...to teach the "out", particularly. Bad behaviors? Yes...a ton. Particularly, slack focus, less than stellar bite pressure, chewing, messy targeting, etc.

Kristen, your dog does not need for you to play tug with him, IMHO.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> In that first video, he wasn't supposed to get that first bite; it was supposed to be a pass-by, but he just barely got it and I DID try pulling back as hard as I could, but the TD told the helper to slip it so I could get him off because he was on the elbow.


It's the decoys job to fix a bad bite, always make it full.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

The following is a quick guide - that's not all inclusive, nor fixed, nor necessarily all correct - that should help with sport dogs' bitework. I just wrote it for people to add on to it, or improve particular items, change the order, or take stuff away. The idea - for me - is to have something that's goal oriented, that people new to dog sports can use as a guide. Bitework clearly should be addressed as a goal oriented process...where for example one session is devoted to teaching the chase, without specific regard for the quality of the bite, and once the chase is set, then quality can be addressed and so on.

Working Puppy Sport Bitework (sleeve) objectives (6 - 12 weeks):
1) It's great to use your teeth.
2) Use them on this rag.
3) Pull on the rag.
4) Want the rag.
5) Take the rag from a man.
6) Pull from a man.
7) Pull from a man, wherever.
8) Chase the man for the rag.
9) Take the rag while the man is facing you at a distance.
10) Learn the stick.
11) Learn sounds.
12) Learn to ground fight for the rag.

TEETHING.

Working Puppy Sport Bitework objectives (6 - 12 months):
1) All of the above...again, but transferred to a tug.
a) Bite deep.
b) Bite hard.
c) Hold on longer.
d) Bark for a bite.
2) All of the above...again, but transferred to a soft sleeve.
3) All of the above...again, but transferred to a harder sleeve.
4) Learn to accept true opposition.
5) Learn to submit the decoy.

Working Puppy Sport Bitework objectives (12 - 24 months):
1) All of the above, plus learn to hunt to bite.
2) Learn the "out" for a rebite.
3) Learn Obedience in Protection for a bite reward.

This should develop a dog that is a very willing biter.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Kristen, your dog does not need for you to play tug with him, IMHO.


I just don't get this, Andres. Please explain why not. "Need" is a stronger categorization than what's been talked about so far...wondering why tug work, properly done, would not help this dog's drives and focus. You're saying explicitly that tug work does not translate to "manwork" and I have never heard any trainer say this before.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> ....
> 
> 
> > So you see no benefit or skill transfer from day-to-day tug in the context of play to a dog biting a decoy? Or more importantly, no possible bad behaviors that could be carried into it?
> ...



So then are you saying that tug work has the potential for more bad behaviors than for good (out, grip), to be carried into decoy work? 

Or that you just don't think tug work is worthwhile, period?

Editing: P.S. 
Or was it specifically to Kirsten's dog? (I just realized you said "your dog" and not just "dogs".)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

CORRECT tug work can be extremely rewarding to a dog. Even if tug work/play is done less then correctly, the helper has the job of developing the dogs grip. 
Correct tug work can be helpeful for developing grip. 
My own dog can be quite chewy on a kong. ( think it may be because of the odd shape) yet none of that transfers to the sleeve. 
Same with stick fetching. He usually crushes them before he returns them. 
On a tug toy he has no problems with a calm grip.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I agree with Bob. Tug work is beneficial for bitework in a sport dog ONLY if done correctly. Otherwise - IMO - it's better to just do the bitework with an experienced decoy. If the handler is not "slick" and the dog is a good dog - as Kristen's dog seems to be - the dog is apt to become more tentative, rather than more powerful.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Not going to give advice here since this type of training is about as opposite from what I do as you can get.

However,it is interesting that the term "manwork" was used.I believe Stephanitz used the term.I use it at times mainly when Im referring to my style of protection work because it fits better."Bitework" seems to fit better for sport venues.

I do see what Andres is saying and I concur.I also agree with Bob;correct tug work is crucial but I just dont think that many people have put in the effort and time required to develop their own skills to the neccessary level for this to be beneficial.JMO.

Another thing to think about.A dog can learn a task in one repetition if the handler can communicate clearly enough.The more repetitions of an excercise such as say...full mouth bite development,the more crucial it is that the trainer be not only correct but consistantly correct.If you arent reinforcing correct behavior you are reinforcing incorrect behavior.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> The more repetitions of an excercise such as say...full mouth bite development,the more crucial it is that the trainer be not only correct but consistantly correct..... If you arent reinforcing correct behavior you are reinforcing incorrect behavior.


Great point.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Not going to give advice here since this type of training is about as opposite from what I do as you can get.
> 
> However,it is interesting that the term "manwork" was used.I believe Stephanitz used the term.I use it at times mainly when Im referring to my style of protection work because it fits better."Bitework" seems to fit better for sport venues.
> 
> ...


One event learning can be huge, for both the good and the bad!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

manwork comes from german/dutch word "manwerk" which means bitework. Meaning is clear ain´t it.

And to learn it properly on a puppy/young dog you´ll have to have some experience(espacially in reading a dog), otherwise half bites, pulling instead of pushing (in KNPV) can be rewarded etc.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> manwork comes from german/dutch word "manwerk" which means bitework. Meaning is clear ain´t it.


 To me "manwork" implies the dog is working in a more natural fashion."Bitework" refers to trying to "teach" the dog how to bite in a specific manner.I leave it up to the dog,therefore I prefer the term "manwork".Clear enough? :lol:


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