# I have just about had it ...



## Nancy Jocoy

I love my GSD and he is a really good worker [cadaver ] but this is beating me to death.

In the past week I have had the wind knocked out of me twice, had an egg sized hematoma on my shin from him banging into me full force with his head, my arm is killing me from tug, and the foot on my uninured leg - the leg with the metal plate in the ankle because a dog broke that one a few years ago - stepped on. 

I have been threatening to try to train a terrier for cadaver work and think I really am getting closer to trying either that or a beagle for my next dog - Something less than 30 lbs. 

Just in a bad mood tonight .........then I see him work and start planning for the next GSD. 

Struggling with the pros and cons. I figure since he is 6 I better start planning for getting the next dog in about a year and a half or two. 

He can jump through the kudzu like a deer but a smaller dog could run under it. He can reach the water from the bow of a jon boat but then on the big lakes we are normally on a much bigger boat anyway..so does it matter [Hell, I could probably dangle a little one off the bow hehehe] .He can jump up in and on things but I could put a little dog up on and in things......But then he can detail a car without jumping too much on it and how does a little dog get their nose in the right places, but then how many cars do we REALLY ever work? 

Ok so everybody here works bigger dogs, even the ESS - does anybody have good little dogs on their teams or know of any really good ones doing cadaver work? I have seen some at some trainings but the ones I have seen are more of a novelty than top notch working dogs.


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## Chris McDonald

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I love my GSD and he is a really good worker [cadaver ] but this is beating me to death.
> 
> In the past week I have had the wind knocked out of me twice, had an egg sized hematoma on my shin from him banging into me full force with his head, my arm is killing me from tug, and the foot on my uninured leg - the leg with the metal plate in the ankle because a dog broke that one a few years ago - stepped on.
> 
> I have been threatening to try to train a terrier for cadaver work and think I really am getting closer to trying either that or a beagle for my next dog - Something less than 30 lbs.
> 
> Just in a bad mood tonight .........then I see him work and start planning for the next GSD.
> 
> Struggling with the pros and cons. I figure since he is 6 I better start planning for getting the next dog in about a year and a half or two.
> 
> He can jump through the kudzu like a deer but a smaller dog could run under it. He can reach the water from the bow of a jon boat but then on the big lakes we are normally on a much bigger boat anyway..so does it matter [Hell, I could probably dangle a little one off the bow hehehe] .He can jump up in and on things but I could put a little dog up on and in things......But then he can detail a car without jumping too much on it and how does a little dog get their nose in the right places, but then how many cars do we REALLY ever work?
> 
> Ok so everybody here works bigger dogs, even the ESS - does anybody have good little dogs on their teams or know of any really good ones doing cadaver work? I have seen some at some trainings but the ones I have seen are more of a novelty than top notch working dogs.


 :-&:-({|=:-&


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## Nancy Jocoy

Yeah, I know its a whiney butt post but I don' t do that too much and I really have been struggling for several years with the idea of working a smaller dog. 

Maybe I should just try it and if it does not work out find a new home for it.


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## Carol Boche

Talk to Jerry Lyda about a Boston Terror......I mean Terrier....LOL

OR......teach your dog that you have your own personal space....I had to do it with Jesea after a couple black eyes and a bloody nose.....\\/:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Nicole Stark

Watch what you wish for, you just might get it. Course it does seem that your dog is having one heck of a time with this life sized toy he's been given


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## Nancy Jocoy

LOL - well this is a long training and testing weekend so won't be around so much but I think the thing that threw me off the edge was the email...........

"I have a 7 year old lab and I think he would be real good to train for search and rescue.............."

I must admist I was poltely blunt in responding that 7 was too old to start a dog.


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## Chris McDonald

Nancy Jocoy said:


> LOL - well this is a long training and testing weekend so won't be around so much but I think the thing that threw me off the edge was the email...........
> 
> "I have a 7 year old lab and I think he would be real good to train for search and rescue.............."
> 
> I must admist I was poltely blunt in responding that 7 was too old to start a dog.


 
Big deep breaths Nancy big deep breaths, and a glass of wine


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## Carol Boche

Nancy Jocoy said:


> LOL - well this is a long training and testing weekend so won't be around so much but I think the thing that threw me off the edge was the email...........
> 
> "I have a 7 year old lab and I think he would be real good to train for search and rescue.............."
> 
> I must admist I was poltely blunt in responding that 7 was too old to start a dog.


At least it was a LAB and not a shitter American bred GSD....LOL

Hang in there Nancy.....it will pass.....:mrgreen:


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## Chris McDonald

Nancy Jocoy said:


> LOL - well this is a long training and testing weekend so won't be around so much but I think the thing that threw me off the edge was the email...........
> 
> "I have a 7 year old lab and I think he would be real good to train for search and rescue.............."
> 
> I must admist I was poltely blunt in responding that 7 was too old to start a dog.


 
Did you ask how the owner’s ankles were? :-\"\\/ 
are the yellow heads helping me out here?


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## ann schnerre

was reading this and (besides the boston terror thought) thought "what about a poodle?" a standard poodle isn't so small, but if you can find one on the smaller side...or the next smaller size (whatever THAT is).

just a random friday night thought, lol


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## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I have been threatening to try to train a terrier for cadaver work and think I really am getting closer to trying either that or a beagle for my next dog - Something less than 30 lbs.


I know of two jack russels, different handlers, different teams; that are very good detection (cadaver) dogs. Besides, I believe the coast guard also uses JRs to detect non-indiginous snakes from coming in on ships. 

And of course, a border collie is also a lot less dog to handle and know of quite a few, that are excellent in wilderness, cadaver and USAR.

And then their is a combination of the two, the "border jack" that often has the hunt drive and mental toughness of the russell but a little longer in the leg for size. Flyball competitors bred this combination.


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## Thomas Barriano

*Border Jack*



Melody Greba said:


> And then their is a combination of the two, the "border jack" that often has the hunt drive and mental toughness of the russell but a little longer in the leg for size. Flyball competitors bred this combination.


Hi Melody

I think I saw a Border Jack on the Taco Bell value menu?


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## Melody Greba

*Re: Border Jack*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Melody
> 
> I think I saw a Border Jack on the Taco Bell value menu?


Was it listed under one of their "fiery items"?


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## Jennifer Coulter

I would seriously consider a Toller. I have a breeder in mind for you if you are interested. I have visited her and her dogs and am seriously impressed. What I saw was pretty consistant through 3 generations she showed me. Canada customs is a repeat client of hers. She competes in field trials, trains others in fieldwork/hunting and runs a small breeding program.

They are different than other floppy eared dogs. Faster, more agile, lower thresholds, more aloof. 35-50lbs depending on line and male or female. Easy to train IMHO.


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## Gillian Schuler

Well you have my sympathy, one of my GSDs is 90-99 pounds, haven't weighed him lately. He's not fat, unfortunately, but I have one over you. I had a Briard that weighed a bit less but was leggier and not as muscular but with good bone structure. He taught me quite a lot. He wasn't a dog to play with in the dark and I have a number of scars to prove this!!

In our REDG team we have / or had, haven't had personal contact for quite a while, a Laekenois and Therese Jans, a rough-haired Viszla. Denise Affolter was vice champion worlds in "Trummersuche" (?) ("bust-up" buildings) due to explosion, earthquake, landslide, etc.

Both these girls were / are in frequent deploy and have been in various parts of Europe, i.e. Turkey, Italy etc.

On the IRO trial side I think Theres was once World Champion.

Here are the links:

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=60628&new_lan_en

http://www.redog.ch/uploads/media/redog_kh_et_0810.pdf

One of my friends also had a rough haired Visza in S&R (trials only) but it worked well and looked "feather-light" to me.


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## Guest

I've trained with a few field trial bred Goldens that were tiny. About 30-35 lbs and worked very well. They look more terrier than typical Golden. Faster, more agile, more stamina, more drive than GSDs, impeccably social with dogs and people, really sweet personalities and wanting to work work work. Small enough to load into a crate in a Yaris, agile enough to climb up or go under whatever, driven enough to go through heavy brush while the humans go around, weather proof and crazy energy... total package sar dog if you ask me.


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## Nancy Jocoy

After a full and very exhausing weekend of re-certifying with NAPWDA in cadaver. I just had to be thankful for what I do have, scars and bruises and all that.

I guess that kind of wreckless enthusiasm is just part of his package. Total abandon. I think he is just a pointy eared lab, thats it. We have some time. 

Tollers - I have heard a lot good about
BC's - you know I just don't like them. I think they are "sneaky" little dogs - don't ask me why.....
GSP - heard much good about them.
Jacks - Maybe if I could get past the dog agression potenial.

You know that weight range though is still within the bounds for a small female GSD........would just have to find another home for my "washed" female with HD as she does not like other girls - but it would be worth a try.......


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## Geoff Empey

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You know that weight range though is still within the bounds for a small female GSD.....


Cough cough ... Malinois ...:lol: Why play with the rest when you can have the best! ;-)


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## Nancy Jocoy

A maligator is not out of the question..........I have heard there is on in GA - 35lbs and kick butt. Part of my challenge is determining if I am up to the level I can take one on! GSDs are very easy and forgiving - that has been my hesitation in switching breeds.


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## Carol Boche

nancy jocoy said:


> \.i have heard there is on in ga - 35lbs and kick butt.


pocket rocket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Geoff Empey

Carol Boche said:


> pocket rocket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That about describes my Maligator .. Not to many canines or humans can keep up. Though Nancy it sounds like you have more than enough oom pah pah to keep up. Especially if you raise it from a pup and do your own foundation work.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I will talk with Mickey about it [NAPWDA Master Trainer] she has a soft spot for Malinois and years of experience with them and knows my capabilities and limitations as a handler.


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## Barrie Kirkland

You can keep your gsd & malis for Human remains work.... they just dont have the longevity that these wee bad boys have.

Same you yanks dont have good spaniel stock like us brits do... cause for ability imo they cant be touched


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## Candy Eggert

Hi Barrie,

We have friend in Henderson, NV K9 unit who has the coolest Dutchie as a partner. Loose in the vehicle, laid back, doesn't load on people or dogs going by. Social, enjoys interaction with people. Fricking off the wall biting machine =P~ 

Locked up in the cage insert?!?! Flippng around in circles like a hamster wheel? Spaniel, detection dog! Off the hook ;-) Very cool (little) dog!! Definately bred for the work


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## Barrie Kirkland

we favour them over here, tons of drive , envirometally sound.... just little nutters

thats my dog sam, nightmare to live with... but great working dog


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## Barrie Kirkland

Funny you mention a dutchie i have been looking for a different breed for my next PD hopefully and have been fortunate to have a maliX getting run on for me just now


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## Jennifer Coulter

Barrie,

The spaniel is interesting to me and seems to have a lot of the same qualities that I love about the Toller, though they would be different personality wise I think. I enjoyed the detection vids you posted a while back.

I would like to see some nice ones in North America. The one that I have seen here did not impress me, but I judge not on seeing one dog.

I would not choose it for avalanche for the same reason I will not choose ANY longer haired or curly haired breed for that dicipline again. Snow balling, and snow sticking to coat. 

If I was just doing wilderness, or disaster, or HRD I would be looking for another toller or something like the spaniels you have shown.

Nancy, I am with Geoff that if you like your GSD, but just want something smaller, a Mal might do the trick. If you are looking for a floppy eared dog...well, you already know my opinion!


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## Barrie Kirkland

i have intention of getting him filmed whilst training, as he is rapid at quartering and it would highlight how he works scent... as even the untrained can see him "knocking" & triangulating the scent source


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## Nancy Jocoy

I definitely need a dog that has incredible heat tolerance and wont get its hair hung up in briars. 

We also have a lot of red mud.

I am thinking a small female GSD, a malinois, or possibly a working kelpie - talking with some folks using them for HRD work -


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## Al Curbow

Nancy, i'm not being a smartass but have you done any ob with your dog?


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## Geoff Empey

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I definitely need a dog that has incredible heat tolerance and wont get its hair hung up in briars.
> 
> We also have a lot of red mud.
> 
> I am thinking a small female GSD, a malinois, or possibly a working kelpie - talking with some folks using them for HRD work -


Kelpies are cool little dogs Nancy. But finding a good one to work over here would be like finding a Spaniel like Barrie's over here. You already have a small pool to draw upon for Spaniels and then over here they are all conformation crappers. Working Kelpies are going to rare as Hen's teeth! 

The lady that we do herding with from time to time just got herself a nice little Kelpie and she has been doing really well on sheep. I just don't know how her nose would work compared to an equal Malinois or a GSD. The will to move stock is there. But I'd like to try her hunting for a ball and see if she has that basic drive as well, just to see for my own curiosity. 

Red mud you say? It'll blend right in with a Malinois! ;-)

Briars I don't know about but bulrushes do get caught on Sasha's coat we have a plethora of them around our Ring field and when she goes out in the field to do her business she does get them in her coat but they are easily removable.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Geoff, you make a good point. I do know some SAR folks with working kelpies but think it would involve getting a puppy. I would really rather get a young green dog.

Working malinois, however, are quite abundant, I could wait a little longer, and I am sure get some real good help on finding just the right little firecracker. 

I am thinking that the traditional breeds - labs, GSDs, malnois are probably more "accepted" by LE since they are used to them as well. After watching a person on our team working with a lab, I know she is going back to a "pointy eared dog" the next time.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Al Curbow said:


> Nancy, i'm not being a smartass but have you done any ob with your dog?


Nothing formal other than loose heeling, sitting, down, long down, working on drop on recall, directionals, recall


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## Chris McDonald

I don’t know much but would a good ezy command be negative to have for some reason? That video where I fall of the log I give him an ezy to slow him down on the icy log and you see him slow down dramatically. I use the shit out of that command when he is towing me


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## Candy Eggert

Barrie Kirkland said:


> we favour them over here, tons of drive , envirometally sound.... just little nutters
> 
> thats my dog sam, nightmare to live with... but great working dog


And the fact that you can pick them up like a 6 pack has it's advantages too 8)

Great news about your new PSD Barrie! Best of luck with your new dog. I think Dutchies rock!!!


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## Nancy Jocoy

Barrie - maybe you could come over here to play with some *real* training material and you could just tuck one of those working ESS dogs under the plane seat


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## Bob Scott

ESS dogs over here have a reputation for being nut bags because of the, not to uncommon, Springer Rage Syndrome. 
Such a shame! Not sure of any true working lines here but there would have to be some....hopefully.


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## Maddy Freemont

Nancy,

Don't do it! Don't go to the dark side! Stick with pointy ears!

Ironically, the scariest time I had playing victim was for a black lab and when he found me I had to yell out to the handler if he'd been trained for apprehending! He was spitting as he was viciously barking at me on his hindquarters. And I was supposed to reward him with ground beef by hand. Ya right!


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## Nancy Jocoy

No way I would EVER go to a lab. NO NO NO don't worry.

That's the thing is there a personality for dog handlers with pointy vs floppy eared dogs? People even say there are only two kinds of SAR dogs - pointy eared and floppy eared - I know a real good trainer should be able to work with anything and.........

They really ARE GREAT detection dogs in the right hands but I have seen the struggle a team member has had bringing a lab up to a consistent working level and her GSD was just so easy to train for this. 

My scariest hide was for a great pyrenees who jumped me from behind and started to hump on me with his jaws right against my neck. I can take the barking but I flat out refused to EVER hide for that dog again.


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## Maddy Freemont

Nancy Jocoy said:


> No way I would EVER go to a lab. NO NO NO don't worry.
> 
> That's the thing is there a personality for dog handlers with pointy vs floppy eared dogs? People even say there are only two kinds of SAR dogs - pointy eared and floppy eared - I know a real good trainer should be able to work with anything and.........
> 
> They really ARE GREAT detection dogs in the right hands but I have seen the struggle a team member has had bringing a lab up to a consistent working level and her GSD was just so easy to train for this.
> 
> My scariest hide was for a great pyrenees who jumped me from behind and started to hump on me with his jaws right against my neck. I can take the barking but I flat out refused to EVER hide for that dog again.


 
That is over the top- being humped as a subject!!! Oh, I think we have a new thread topic in "what's your most memorable time being a SAR subject?"


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## Anna Kasho

Bob Scott said:


> ESS dogs over here have a reputation for being nut bags because of the, not to uncommon, Springer Rage Syndrome.
> Such a shame! Not sure of any true working lines here but there would have to be some....hopefully.


The only springers I have seen in my area all have that long thick show coat, like the american show cockers. Totally useless, and temperament to match, but overall happy and mellow dogs. I have seen a couple of cocker-type spaniels with a practical coat for working (tight, short coat, minimal amount of feathering) and they seemed active and higher energy, and not biters like a lot of cockers. Also a bit smaller in size. They *might* have been able to work, but did not have crazy high drives. Ironically they both were from shelters.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Maddy Freemont said:


> That is over the top- being humped as a subject!!! Oh, I think we have a new thread topic in "what's your most memorable time being a SAR subject?"


You know - the first day I was alone with Grim he tried to hump me but I figured if he was going to be my dog I would have to be able to set him straight even if it cost me physically, and he NEVER tried that again.

but a someone else's dog with his teeth right at my neck ....fortunately she was only 20 feet away when it happend and I was yelling "get him offa me!" and she made some lame excuse that he was only "playing" - In my mind that is attempted dominance.


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## Barrie Kirkland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Barrie - maybe you could come over here to play with some *real* training material and you could just tuck one of those working ESS dogs under the plane seat



springer rage haha didnt think that was a known term over your way


We have had decades of breeding towards working springers via the hunting circles.So working lines are easy to find in springers & cockers. Im a die hard ess fan i find cockers a wee bit too soft for what i like

for sar, border collies are the preferred option... but to me for remains work an ess everytime they make malis look sedate :-\"


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## Bob Scott

Maddy Freemont said:


> That is over the top- being humped as a subject!!! Oh, I think we have a new thread topic in "what's your most memorable time being a SAR subject?"



A young coyote sniffing my boots as I lay there "dead". 
Thought the critter was going to shit himself inside out when I started laughing.


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## Maddy Freemont

Bob Scott said:


> A young coyote sniffing my boots as I lay there "dead".
> Thought the critter was going to shit himself inside out when I started laughing.


 
ohhhhhhh, man..... awesome! Add it to the thread i started will ya?


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## Geoff Empey

Barrie Kirkland said:


> for sar, border collies are the preferred option... but to me for remains work an ess everytime they make malis look sedate :-\"


Now that my friend I'd love to check out! 

What else do you use over there as PSDs? Any other what us North Americans would consider off the wall breeds?


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## Barrie Kirkland

In my force the majority of general purpose dogs are gsd , with a mix of gift dogs which are more your classic show lines , and working lined bred dogs down from sch lines

I have the latter, we even have a rotti/gsd cross. I recently got them a knpv line Mali/x which is with another handler and it's our first Mali


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## Barrie Kirkland

Candy Eggert said:


> And the fact that you can pick them up like a 6 pack has it's advantages too 8)
> 
> Great news about your new PSD Barrie! Best of luck with your new dog. I think Dutchies rock!!!






he is getting run on for me at the moment , im sure he will make the grade

Sorry for the thread hijack


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## Maddy Freemont

Barrie Kirkland said:


> he is getting run on for me at the moment , im sure he will make the grade
> 
> Sorry for the thread hijack


Oh my god, what a BEAUT!!!!!!!!


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## ann schnerre

Barrie Kirkland said:


> ... we even have a rotti/gsd cross.


the best dog i have ever owned in my life was a rottixgsd bitch i bought for $25.00 30 yrs ago. i owned her fr 8 wks til 15 yrs old; she was (in retrospect), a dog that could've "done it all": hard, high prey drive, absolutely sound socially, plenty of territorial aggresssion, low thresholds (but not TOO low)....

wish i could get her back now; well wis she'd never had to die....

at any rate, there are some really good ideas here--better than a poodle, lol!!:-\"


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## Don Turnipseed




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