# Liability: Sport vs. Personal Protection Dogs



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Do you think sport dogs are less of a liability than a personal protection dog? If so, why?

Second, do you take different precautions with a sport dog than a personal protection dog (i.e. are you more wary with a sport dog that a PPD or PSD) or do you take the same precautions with any dog trained in bitework, or is it entirely specific on how much you know & trust the individual dog?

This is more of a just-wondering question than anything else.

-Cheers


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't know if the insurance companies/courts would see a difference. Liability for ANY dog bite, IMHO, would depend on the owner's ability to show how much control (obedience) with the dog.....and, of course, the reason for the bite.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I know we used to believe that sport dogs were easier for home owners insurance to cover. For our area of SoCal, I have not found an insurance company that offers home owners insurance that covers dogs at all. We carry Kennel Insurance that covers our dogs and dogs boarded. 

However, there is no coverage that we can find to cover "damage caused by a dog" when dogs and handlers are being trained on our property. So even if a decoy got hurt catching a dog there would be no coverage. It's getting very, very difficult in California. 

I have had discussions with the local police dog brokers/trainers and they cannot find coverage either for dog bites. Everyone including us have resorted to waivers. However, if someone decides to sue you, you still must hire an attorney to defend you and this can cost thousands of $$ to fight a lawsuit. Even if you win, you can be out thousands out of pocket. 

In California, local clubs cannot find Event Insurance to cover their members or anyone against dog injuries either. It makes anyone with "deep pockets" involved in training or an event at risk. 

We had donated the use of our field for a large event last year that was to take place later this year. The National Organization does not carry any event liability insurance even though they sponsor and pay for the event. The California club has searched for months to find adequate coverage and could not find insurance against injuries caused by dogs for a dog event. The national club leaves it up to the local club and property owner to have coverage. I had to regretfully give the club the deadline of Sept 1 to find insurance and they cannot. 

Our kennel insurance provider even tried to refer us to a company in Florida that the agent said covers "odd ball" stuff such as police dogs.. The agent was on the phone with my husband, she tried to click to their web site to give him their contact information...they are gone!  Our agent was at a loss to where to refer us and urged us to not hold events or protection training as it won't be covered and would be reason to be dropped. 

I believe in other states, it's not like this...I hope not. I hear in CO that it's a "at your own risk" state where you assume there is risk when you enter into dangerous activities such as rodeo, dirt biking, dog sports. Locally the dirt bike tracks are being built on indian reservations. Maybe this is a solution for dog sports and protection dog training as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What are you, PETA ??


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What are you, PETA ??



Are you starting stuff so early? :-D I'm only on my 2nd cup of coffee.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is late for me. THis guy makes me wonder sometimes. Can't train sit, but is asking about liability.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is late for me. THis guy makes me wonder sometimes. Can't train sit, but is asking about liability.


Isn't that a good reason to ask about liability then! :-D How do you know everyone?

My friend that just hosts agility trials, recently had a junior handler get grazed by a dog when the kid jumped over the dog that was laying at the owner's feet. No one said a word until the next day. Owner didn't even realize anything had occurred. And did it? Mother is making a lot of noise about it and threatening animal control, etc. I bet she stops hosting agility trials over this. She has an awesome, dog friendly ranch. She is scrutinizing her waivers, insurance policies and the clubs event insurance policies. It has been an eye opener for me regarding liability.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What are you, PETA ??


No. Not even remotely. How did you come to that conclusion? And yes, that was a rhetorical question.

I just meant it for the sake of discussion. There seems to be the thought (implied or otherwise) that PPDs are more of a liability (legally a/o safety-wise) than sport dogs. Considering both are trained for bitework, some sport dogs are trained civilly, and both are presumably given fine foundation work with a solid obedience, I was not sure why some felt that way. As for the legal aspect of bite work liability, that is something important for fairly obvious reasons.

As an aside, I can teach and train the basic OB dog commands just fine. I am a bit of an over-analyzer though, I'll admit that, yet probably not as stupid as you are making me out to be.

-Cheers


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

PSA had a blanket Insurance Policy for their events, I remember I had to get a copy of the Binder to the county park we held one event at.

Not sure Exactly what it covered or if anyone ever tried to make a claim?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I have recently heard 3 very bad Liability stories of dogs that had changed handler 2 to 3 times before an incident and it STILL drug the original owner and or breeder into a shit storm costing serious $$$$$$$$$$


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> PSA had a blanket Insurance Policy for their events, I remember I had to get a copy of the Binder to the county park we held one event at.
> 
> Not sure Exactly what it covered or if anyone ever tried to make a claim?



Was it through Sportsman Insurance? The local ring club was reading through the policies offered (not easy due to the language) but the policies don't cover dog bites. 

It's great if PSA has a blanket Insurance Policy. Other national organizations should look into it as well.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Was it through Sportsman Insurance? The local ring club was reading through the policies offered (not easy due to the language) but the policies don't cover dog bites.
> 
> It's great if PSA has a blanket Insurance Policy. Other national organizations should look into it as well.


 
I believe it was Sportsman Insurance and I seem to remember some of the same questions as to Exactly WHAT was covered over the years, not sure what the conclusion is/was?

I believe it is well worth looking into, if someone want to be a PIA they can make a HUGE problem.


Maybe some of the Larger PSD kennels have a source of some kind of trial insurance? A friends dog almost took off a guys ear at Adlerhorst one time that required a ER visit to sew it back on, not sure how it was covered?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I view bite workas just that, bite work. Doesn't matter what you train for, it all boils down to the control of the animal and IQ of the owner! Don't need the village "tards" working chomp and chew critters!!! [-X


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I believe it was Sportsman Insurance and I seem to remember some of the same questions as to Exactly WHAT was covered over the years, not sure what the conclusion is/was?
> 
> I believe it is well worth looking into, if someone want to be a PIA they can make a HUGE problem.
> 
> ...


I know he uses waivers and ours waivers were made up by the same lawyer about 10 years ago and also posting signs in a large font at the gates about "dangers of dog training".

I got input from two kennels both that sell police dogs and do bite training and both said that they can't find coverage for working biting dogs with others or any insurance to cover bites at an event or seminar.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I am a bit of an over-analyzer though, I'll admit that, yet probably not as stupid as you are making me out to be.

No, so far you are just as stupid as I thought you would be, and I can't see you doing much in the way of training.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I think they are both about the same in the sense that it depnds on the individual dog.

What IS a liability is a POS nearve bag pet that people stupidly think is fine because the dog seems stable in the house.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I think they are both about the same in the sense that it depnds on the individual dog.
> 
> What IS a liability is a POS nearve bag pet that people stupidly think is fine because the dog seems stable in the house.



Agreed, but people do very stupid things around dogs too. I remember that I had just hired a caretaker-kennel help. I told her specifically to not go into the barn as my bitch "Orly had newbornl puppies in there. [-XWell she went into the barn and got bit in the chest. I fired her on the spot. Looking back, I was lucky regarding the liability. I guess people expect dogs to put up with everything. Also, some people can't follow directions. If I say don't pet that dog or don't go in there, it's normally for a good reason..not an exaggeration. ](*,)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is a kind of dumb ass out there that has this odd sense of reality that "THEY" are special, and that dogs will not bite them.

These are the people to run away from, I have had to deal with them in the past when I was managing the boarding kennel. You tell them that this dog WILL bite you, and that is the first thing that happens.

I had to deal with 4 women like that. I told them NOT to go into this kennel, as this dog will bite you. There is a big ass sign that says THIS DOG WILL BITE YOU and they still went in and got bitten.

One of these idiots lasted a whole 5 minutes before deciding that she knew better.

Maybe it is just me, but I can do without getting bitten.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is a kind of dumb ass out there that has this odd sense of reality that "THEY" are special, and that dogs will not bite them.


 YEP, ONE IN EVERY CROWD!


The 32-year-old leapt over bars at Berlin Zoo during the bears' feeding time yesterday. 

Despite six zookeepers' efforts to distract the four predators kept in the enclosure, the woman was bitten several times on her arms and legs.

Enlarge


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This is the reason that natural selection needs to be brought back.

People that are this dumb should be humanely euthanized, as they are a detriment to our society, and genetic trash.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I am a bit of an over-analyzer though, I'll admit that, yet probably not as stupid as you are making me out to be.
> 
> No, so far you are just as stupid as I thought you would be, and I can't see you doing much in the way of training.


 
this is real real funny, real funny


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No, so far you are just as stupid as I thought you would be, and I can't see you doing much in the way of training.


You will no doubt understand if I disagree with you on this. Considering you've never met me, seen me handle a dog, or had so much as a conversation with me, placing my sense of self-worth in the hands of somebody who has already written me off for chatting it up on a dog discussion board would be a bit of a losing effort.

Still, I am wondering. If I take the Pepsi challenge, what qualifies as "doing much in the way of training" and what do I win if I prove you wrong?

-Cheers


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It would be the Mondio challenge, and I would love to see you prove me wrong and join, and title a dog, preferably to three, as we could always use more of them.

Maybe I make a little trophy for you apologizing, with a picture of me on my knees with my hands together begging for forgiveness.

I would want at least a 2 for that.

If you get a brevet, I will buy you a bottle of Johnny Walker.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I have recently heard 3 very bad Liability stories of dogs that had changed handler 2 to 3 times before an incident and it STILL drug the original owner and or breeder into a shit storm costing serious $$$$$$$$$$


Years ago here in SoCal I heard from the lawyer that wrote up my original waivers a story involving a case. It involved a very respectable Schutzhund trainer and breeder of GSDs. They sold a couple puppies/dogs that the new owner later bred. A puppy from this litter was involved in a bite. The original breeders of the parents along with the actual breeders of this puppy were named in the lawsuit. The lawyer had to defend the original schutzhund trainers and did prevail, but they incurred a lot of lawyer fees defending themselves. They did not have insurance to cover such a suit.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

TOO FUNNY...BEAR VS Woman


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Maybe some of the Larger PSD kennels have a source of some kind of trial insurance? A friends dog almost took off a guys ear at Adlerhorst one time that required a ER visit to sew it back on, not sure how it was covered?


I know of a couple of Police Dog/PPD kennels in S CA who have insurance that covers pretty much everything from the dogs they sell to training at their facilities to events there. The Schutzhund clubs I train with all have insurance policies that cover training and trials. And one of my friends who is a dog trainer for a living has an insurance policy that also allows them to host X number of events a year, we used the policy one time when we were hosting a Ring trial. 

So the insurance is out there, it just may be hard to find.


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## Ron Skinner (May 28, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I know of a couple of Police Dog/PPD kennels in S CA who have insurance that covers pretty much everything from the dogs they sell to training at their facilities to events there. The Schutzhund clubs I train with all have insurance policies that cover training and trials. And one of my friends who is a dog trainer for a living has an insurance policy that also allows them to host X number of events a year, we used the policy one time when we were hosting a Ring trial.
> 
> So the insurance is out there, it just may be hard to find.


This is pretty vague! If you have such information, how does your post help clubs/participants in any way? If you have such information, why would you not share it with all who need it?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ron Skinner said:


> This is pretty vague! If you have such information, how does your post help clubs/participants in any way? If you have such information, why would you not share it with all who need it?


Simple, it lets people know the insurance is out there if they know where to look. I would have to ask each of the clubs/individuals I mentioned who their carrier's were before I could share that information. I know at least two policies are through Sportsman, I don't know about the rest because I didn't bother to ask at the time.


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Maybe some of the Larger PSD kennels have a source of some kind of trial insurance? A friends dog almost took off a guys ear at Adlerhorst one time that required a ER visit to sew it back on, not sure how it was covered?


 
Adlerhorst does not carry insurance for the dogs and training. From Dave's web site:

After much consideration, Adlerhorst International Inc. chose not to carry commercial liability insurance. This decision was based on the following considerations:​


Diligent efforts have been continuously made to obtain coverage but all offers of coverage were conditioned on payment of premiums so exorbitant as to be prohibitive of Adlerhorst’s continued existence.

The informed conclusion of Adlerhorst International’s owners and staff, is that their interests would be better served by retained counsel of their own choice. Counsel who would respond solely to Adlerhorst’s interests and not the business concerns (expense, bad faith litigation, etc.) with which insurance companies must be concerned.

The lack of insurance defense counsel experienced in the area of dogs, dog training and specifically police dog training and deployment.

As stated by corporate council, Mr. E. Wallace Dingman who specializes in Police K-9 defense related cases, Adlerhorst International’s K-9 training courses, selection process and certification standards make liability exposure to third parties negligible. 
In our 30 years of existence, Adlerhorst has never caused a third party any vicarious liability.
The desire of Adlerhorst International to be a responsible force in litigation of police dog-related issues and to litigate meritless claims rather than settle them (even for nominal value) prevents the encouragement of specious lawsuits. See for example: Vera Cruz vs. City of Escondido, et al. 139 F.3d 59 and the unpublished portion of decision regarding Adlerhorst; or check “David Reaver” or “Adlerhorst” on PACER for 9th Circuit cases and state court indexes for state court cases involving the same parties. Neither Adlerhorst International, Inc. nor any agency trained by Adlerhorst has ever been found liable as a result of the dog selected or the training provided.
​
Adlerhorst International appreciates your inquiry regarding liability insurance. Albuquerque, New Mexico, Arizona Department of Public Safety, U.S. Border Patrol and other agencies have all agreed to drop the liability insurance requirement from their contracts and continue to receive the finest Police Service Dogs, training and support from Adlerhorst International. 

For agencies requiring liability insurance, we can obtain an individual $2,000,000, agency specific, policy from Sparta Insurance for an additional fee of approximately $900. The cost would be in addition to our yearly maintenance training fees. 

Adlerhorst carries $1,000,000 liability on all our vehicles, and has a guaranteed renewal worker’s compensation policy. Certificate available upon request.​


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Loring Cox said:


> Adlerhorst does not carry insurance for the dogs and training. From Dave's web site:



That's what I was thinking as we used Wally Dingman for our waivers as well. LaMaster K9 does the waivers as well because they said there is no insurance to cover training with others doing bitework. Sportsman does not cover dog related injuries i.e. dog bites. Also, I had talked with Karen Duet (k9 Companions) and she said the same thing. 

There is an insurance company that insures "the odd and weird" like circus animal acts. I found their web site finally and am going to call them.

Every police and protection dog trainer that I know uses waivers because there isn't liability insurance available in CA if you are training with others and there is a dog bite injury. Sportsman Ins. seems to be as useful regarding dog bite liability as a band-aid on a severed arm. It's really a false sense of security and the property owner and owners of a dog causing injury would not be covered. 

A San Diego Schutzhund club requires proof of home owners or renters insurance with a minimum of $100K coverage that includes dog bites for each member of the club because Sportsman does not cover this nor do they cover injuries incurred by club members that hold the policy.

Insurance Companies seem to be specialists at not covering what you need covered. ](*,)


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

This is how Aztec Schutzhund handles their liability: http://www.germanshepherds-r-us.com/AztecWelcomePage.htm


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Simple, it lets people know the insurance is out there if they know where to look. I would have to ask each of the clubs/individuals I mentioned who their carrier's were before I could share that information. I know at least two policies are through Sportsman, I don't know about the rest because I didn't bother to ask at the time.



Where's the smiley icon for hot air? Like a big empty post of nothing..that's the icon I need right now.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is a kind of dumb ass out there that has this odd sense of reality that "THEY" are special, and that dogs will not bite them.
> 
> These are the people to run away from, I have had to deal with them in the past when I was managing the boarding kennel. You tell them that this dog WILL bite you, and that is the first thing that happens.
> 
> ...


Brings back memories Jeff. My 3rd wife thought she could do anything I could do. I went to work early one morning and told her to feed the dogs.BUT< put one particular bitch in the house BFORE she opened the gate to feed the other. Oh no!, That was too damned simple. She opened the gate and tried to slip through and they knocked her down and tore each other to pieces. She spent about twelve days in the hospital and had a heart attack while there. Had some broken fingers and severed tendens on one hand.....and it was all my fault of course. I went home and the dogs were covered with blood and one had the muscles and stuff hanging out on both front legs. I told the wife if she thought she could get through that gate, driving herself to the hospital should be a walk in the park and I loaded the dogs up and took them to the vet. Insurance covered most of the $35,000 back in those days. Cost me about $2000 + having the dogs put back together. She is an ex and has been since shortly after that happened.

As far as events, and insurance goes....workmans comp comes to mind if anyone gets hurt...while on the job of course.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Farmer's Insurance is another company that will provide a policy that covers injuries include bites. A friend uses it for their dog training business plus personal insurance (home, car, etc). It also allows them to host events. I think 2 events a year are included, but they can pay a fee to add more if they want.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What are you, PETA ??


P-people
E-eating
T-tasty
A-animals
=D>=D>=D>


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

kim guidry said:


> P-people
> E-eating
> T-tasty
> A-animals
> =D>=D>=D>



Yuuuuuummmmmmm!

DFrost


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Ted Nugent, Kill It and Grill It cookbook \\/


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

kim guidry said:


> P-people
> E-eating
> T-tasty
> A-animals
> =D>=D>=D>


I LOVE it! \\/
How about a pithy acronym for HSUS?


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Ah, a friendly wager?



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It would be the Mondio challenge, and I would love to see you prove me wrong and join, and title a dog, preferably to three, as we could always use more of them.
> 
> Maybe I make a little trophy for you apologizing, with a picture of me on my knees with my hands together begging for forgiveness.
> 
> ...


Mondio . . . We'll see. As things stand now, the closest Mondio club is ~3 hours away. If things change that might be a possibility. It just looks fun and there is one person around who trains long-distance and another who I think might be interested or at least willing to decoy. I've actually inquired but it's a maybe situation. If not, do I get a consolation prize for SchH or PSA?

The trophy w/ pic. Sounds hilarious. For the Brevet, can I get an upgrade? I'd prefer Ardbeg or Laphroaig and the younger bottles aren't all that pricey, or Balvenie for a cheap-but-good Scotch. Not that it's make-or-break, but if I'm getting Scotch for something I might be doing anyway, why not pick something I really enjoy? If I do nothing with a dog, you can relish in having been right all along. And of course, if I do SchH or PSA I would expect the typical cracks about that, and PPD would earn me nutter-status in your book. Sound fair?

-Cheers


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