# How close is too close in breeding?



## eugene ramirez

A friend just asked me a question about the potential impact of breeding Father to daughter. Since I'm not a breeder, I thought it would be good to defer this post to the experts.

I have heard that most breeders prefer outcrossing and outbreeding to inbreeding or line-breeding. However, I have also heard that very few breeders will do inbreeding to fully exploits certain traits or characteristics they are after.

I've read that inbreeding will intensify both faults and strengths of the parents. The negative side, in some cases whole litters had to be destroyed due to obvious anomalies that occurred. But has anyone ever attempted inbreeding with positive or outstanding results? And even with the apparent dangers, what are the percentage of getting good results?

Thanks


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## andreas broqvist

You can never awnser that question do to its a to big difernes in difrent breeds, difrent lines and also difrent dogs in a litter.

Don on this forum is 12 ore 13 gen deep in his inbreeding. 
we Do inbreding, now 28 % and wi will do a father daugther breding probobly this year. The fater is 12 % and the daugter is 28 %. I havent don the numbers now but it will be in the high 30%


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## Selena van Leeuwen

if the dogs are healthy, the line is healthy no probs with it. You'll know exactly what is in your line with a litter like this. The good and bad things, health and characterwise.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Good topic. I have also been told that only outcrossing can "cover up" faults in a line, to only have them re-appear a couple of generations later.


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## andreas broqvist

that is true and not true 
You can outcross and get rid of a problem, IF you chose the right pup, And after that use a free pup.

If you inbreed you will be mor likely to se the faults.
But when inbreeding you will have a biger risk of geting imune problems.

Its al a chans with %, I prefer inbreeding my self becaus i want to KNOW what the line of dogs produce and what I have in ther, Both good and bad. I get a mutch clerer picture with inbreeding.


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## Shane Woodlief

I don't know why all the concerns! People have been inbreeding in Alabama for generations - Oh wait your talking about dogs - My bad -  (just kidding don't get pissy)


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## Mike Valente

Shane Woodlief said:


> I don't know why all the concerns! People have been inbreeding in Alabama for generations - Oh wait your talking about dogs - My bad -  (just kidding don't get pissy)


I'd definantly talk to one of them about the father /daughter issue they'ld know best.:lol:

It is totally subjective to the dogs being bred, outcrossing only burries faults. If your program has no rhym or reason other then simply producing dogs for selling then simply breed to healthy specimins.
If you have a specific goal in a program and specific dogs reflect this goal then inbreeding/linebreeding
is essential. If your looking to harness the males attributes then breeding to his best daughter reflecting these attributes is ideal. Some pups in a litter may be a step forward and others in the same litter may be a step back, this is the purpose or culling. The same way faults are magnified so are improvements, the only way to eliminate the faults are by breeding them and making them appearant so they can be culled out, if building a solid line is your goal. I believe in a 25% rule, 25% will be the genetic cream in a litter, 50% may be average, and 25% genetic sludge. Now this is subjective to the specific dogs again because the sludge in one line may be better then the cream in another depending on the strength of individual lines. So basically one mans cream is another's sludge depending on how serious the breeding program.


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## Don Turnipseed

Well put Mike. I agree with the percentages also up to a point. The longer the line is bred, the percentages can change as the line, as a whole, becomes more homogenous.


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## eugene ramirez

andreas broqvist said:


> You can never awnser that question do to its a to big difernes in difrent breeds, difrent lines and also difrent dogs in a litter.
> 
> Don on this forum is 12 ore 13 gen deep in his inbreeding.
> we Do inbreding, now 28 % and wi will do a father daugther breding probobly this year. The fater is 12 % and the daugter is 28 %. I havent don the numbers now but it will be in the high 30%


Hi Andreas, thank you for the reply. I just wanted to clarify your answer - sorry that I am so ignorant about breeding terminology. Don has been inbreeding for 12 to 13 generations. I got that part. What does the 28percent, the father 12percent to 28 percent daughter, as high as 30 percent refer to?


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## andreas broqvist

He he that was that I Will breed a dog that is 12 % inbreed to his daughter that is 28 % inbreed. The pups from this Will be close to 40% inbreed  
If they turn out as i like We Will probobly breed that daugter to the father/grandfater again.


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## andreas broqvist

It will be 32 % inbreed in taht first gen and if we do it again it will be 44 %


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## Harry Keely

depends on the dogs themselves, genetics and what your looking for in the final product that your wanting to produce. You can never get to up close and personal and vice versa. With tight linebreedings you can pretty much assume what your going to get usually but out cross produces some fine dogs too, you just need to know what and what not your looking for.


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## eugene ramirez

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> if the dogs are healthy, the line is healthy no probs with it. You'll know exactly what is in your line with a litter like this. The good and bad things, health and characterwise.


Hi Selena, in your experience, which is more important to focus on, the sire or dam sire in breeding. It seems many people puts the emphasis on stud. Thank you.


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## andreas broqvist

That is becaus its hard to line breed on females, you cant get so many liters out of à female. 
You culd test your male on say 3 difrent females at the same time, that will take 3 yesrs with à female.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I hear many people talk about how important the female is but from what i've seen many times a good natured, healthy female that is not a good worker bred with a good stud dog may still produce some nice puppies. I think many large scale breeders use a lot of 'normal' bitches in their kennels. That being said a good working female is with a good male IMO is better.


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## Ricardo Ashton

First off, outcrossing & outbreeding is the same thing,importing entirely different genetics from outside the gene pool of the line Line breeding & inbreeding are similar yet different. It's considered inbreeding is when using a closely related sire & dam eg. mother & son,father & daughter, & full siblings. Line breeding is when using stock thas not so closely related but still share a common ancestors within 2-3 generations. 

Some people use inbreeding & line breeding to improve their lines,& this can help set a characteristic in the line which is the prefered result. Things like biddability,intelligence, head size, height, temperament. But there are some very serious problems that come with tight long term inbreeding that can potentially render a line useless at best. Problems like imunne supression, locking in of genetic defects that may not be immediately visible in the progeny but are more likely to be passed onto its offspring, sterility in dogs & bitches, smaller litters, chromosomal disorders, chemical imbalances and a lot of other problems. That's where vigor comes into play with an eventual outcross of the line with a stud that displays the qualities a breeder is breeding for. 
I've always believed in linebreeding/inbreeding, but only if done responsibly.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: But there are some very serious problems that come with tight long term inbreeding that can potentially render a line useless at best. Problems like imunne supression, locking in of genetic defects that may not be immediately visible in the progeny but are more likely to be passed onto its offspring, sterility in dogs & bitches, smaller litters, chromosomal disorders, chemical imbalances and a lot of other problems.

So you have experienced these things in your breeding program ?


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## Don Turnipseed

Outcrossing is picking up your new genes within the breed. Outbreeding is picking them up outside the breed. Very different.


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## andreas broqvist

Im with Jeff her. Ther are SO many anti inbreeding peopel that always is speaking of thos problems. I have dogs att 35 % and we have seen NONE of thos problems. 
Its not that they jump upp from no wher.
Hey friends of us has breed to tha same male in 4 generations
Father to daugther
Father to daugther daugther
Father to daugther daugther daugther
Father to daugther daugther daugther daugther

AND not sen anny of thos problems 

Its like me saing that if you only Outcross you will loos AL the consistensy in a line and prety sone the apilety to do the work to. Plus you will spread a shitload of defect geens in your geen pool and they will all plopp up at the same time and destroy you dogs.

Its stupid, Peopel know what is to be expected from linebreding and what to look out for and Outcross befor that. Its a bitt anying that the anty line breeders give us so litle creddit, and often they use the linebreed dog on ther dogs ha ha


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## Christopher Jones

Inbreeding is great until it doesnt work. Just like everything.


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## Mike Valente

"Intelligent" inbreeding will always work, but requires starting with the right stock, lack of knowledge about genetics and traits will lead to disaster.
There are gamedog breeders inbreeding the same lines for 20-30 years, these dogs are the cream of the crop and you'll only see one if you know someone that knows someone. Inbreeding is the only way to "purify" a line by culling out the unwanted faults that will only come to the surface through inbreeding and magnify the wanted traits.
You can spent 10-20 years purifying a superior line of dogs and screw it up with one or two careless out crosses.
If you want nice dogs out cross to the best you can find and select the best produced.
If you want to develop a line of dogs it will only be a line through inbreeding, outcrossing will never solidify a consistent line.


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## Megan Bays

With the help of Dick and Selena, I imported a female bred back to her father.

It was my first litter that I've ever had, and I wanted to produce puppies that would be strong police dog candidates as well as having future breeding program candidates. I feel that the choice of inbreeding would give me a litter that was much more uniform in drives and character therefore allowing me to have a better chance of acheiving my goals with the pups.

So far I haven't been disappointed!!! 

Here's a link to the breeding:
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=18541


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Did any of them live ?


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## Megan Bays

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Did any of them live ?


Yes they did.

No weird deformities or anything either, hard to believe huh?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Megan Bays said:


> With the help of Dick and Selena, I imported a female bred back to her father.
> 
> It was my first litter that I've ever had, and I wanted to produce puppies that would be strong police dog candidates as well as having future breeding program candidates. I feel that the choice of inbreeding would give me a litter that was much more uniform in drives and character therefore allowing me to have a better chance of acheiving my goals with the pups.
> 
> So far I haven't been disappointed!!!
> 
> Here's a link to the breeding:
> http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=18541


Please don't get me wrong on this, I'm just asking.

If this was your first litter, how would you know now whether it was good or bad or if inbreeding had anything to do with it, Has the breeding ever been done before etc etc ??

I like Dutchies but I'm beginning to think even the good ones are somewhat of a one trick pony.


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## Megan Bays

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Please don't get me wrong on this, I'm just asking.
> 
> If this was your first litter, how would you know now whether it was good or bad or if inbreeding had anything to do with it, Has the breeding ever been done before etc etc ??
> 
> I like Dutchies but I'm beginning to think even the good ones are somewhat of a one trick pony.


No big deal Gerry! 

This was the first litter that I have had personally. I've been around numerous litters of pups and have/helped raised many. This is the first time that I decided to do one on my own.

The breeding was done before with a different sister and I was told that it had good results by people that I trusted. Dick and Selena recommended doing it, and since they have much more knowledge on the lines and what will and won't work good with them I trusted their judgement as they know what I wanted from the pups. Because this was my first litter (everyone has to start somewhere) I based my decisions off of those who knew more than me and that I trusted. Had it not been for Dick and Selena supporting me, I would not have done it.

What I like and want is totally subjective and may not be what someone else is looking for. I wanted to do the breeding for me and inbreeding was the choice I made, I'm very happy with what I have at this point.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

To add thereply of Megan, the litter we did (genethicly the same as the one Megan had) are about 18 mnths now. They are all 100% medicaly OK ( X-rayed, teeth, ) 
ALL are doing well in KNPV and Mondio (in Canada). We have the first choice female out of that litter ourselfs and is a high drive super stabile female with a natural ferm, full grip.

So what i'm saying is, we could out off own experience advice Megan to do this breeding, knowing her goals...

Dick


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## Joby Becker

what is the one trick?


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## Ricardo Ashton

Jeff to answer your question, yes we had quite a few pups develop into dogs with some of these problems out of a particular breeding several years ago, chemical imbalance, and sterility mostly. One of those pups i kept for my personal use, a beautiful physical specimen of a male Rottie loyal to me to a fault, only to realise while he was growig up that he was not normal. Started constantly fighting with siblings @ about 3 months so he had to be separated. At 24 months I got the the idea to use him at stud for once. He had no interest in breeding whatsoever.So we took him to the vet ran some blood tests & discovered he had extremely high testosterone levels and hypothyroidism. The next week we found out his brother had high estrogen levels in his blood, and was starting to go blind. Soon we discovered he and all his sibs had some pretty serious problems. All I'm sayin is real simple, any one considering a tight program should consider it carefully.


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## Harry Keely

I had talked with Megan on a few occasions about her litter just asking questions and was even considering a pup, I think her litter should pop off some nice good strong dogs. Probally will kick myself in the ass for not stepping into a puppy a year or two down the road when there full grown and see one, just decided that I was puppy out right now.


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## Megan Bays

Harry Keely said:


> I had talked with Megan on a few occasions about her litter just asking questions and was even considering a pup, I think her litter should pop off some nice good strong dogs. Probally will kick myself in the ass for not stepping into a puppy a year or two down the road when there full grown and see one, just decided that I was puppy out right now.


The Blue pup was almost available too Harry!


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## Megan Bays

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> To add thereply of Megan, the litter we did (genethicly the same as the one Megan had) are about 18 mnths now. They are all 100% medicaly OK ( X-rayed, teeth, )
> ALL are doing well in KNPV and Mondio (in Canada). We have the first choice female out of that litter ourselfs and is a high drive super stabile female with a natural ferm, full grip.
> 
> So what i'm saying is, we could out off own experience advice Megan to do this breeding, knowing her goals...
> 
> Dick


Thanks for explaining things better Dick.


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## Kris

Mike Valente said:


> "Intelligent" inbreeding will always work, but requires starting with the right stock, lack of knowledge about genetics and traits will lead to disaster.
> There are gamedog breeders inbreeding the same lines for 20-30 years, these dogs are the cream of the crop and you'll only see one if you know someone that knows someone. Inbreeding is the only way to "purify" a line by culling out the unwanted faults that will only come to the surface through inbreeding and magnify the wanted traits.
> You can spent 10-20 years purifying a superior line of dogs and screw it up with one or two careless out crosses.
> If you want nice dogs out cross to the best you can find and select the best produced.
> If you want to develop a line of dogs it will only be a line through inbreeding, outcrossing will never solidify a consistent line.


This isn't true. Whats good for us these days we can go to the same breed an keep line breeding staying in the same breed instead of inbreeding or linage if you will. Last 20 30 years the genetics ect have depleted by 120 % due inbreeding. Sticking to decemtancy that the cross took to make you can't go wrong. Inbreed those lines an you went way left on the success


Mike Valente said:


> "Intelligent" inbreeding will always work, but requires starting with the right stock, lack of knowledge about genetics and traits will lead to disaster.
> There are gamedog breeders inbreeding the same lines for 20-30 years, these dogs are the cream of the crop and you'll only see one if you know someone that knows someone. Inbreeding is the only way to "purify" a line by culling out the unwanted faults that will only come to the surface through inbreeding and magnify the wanted traits.
> You can spent 10-20 years purifying a superior line of dogs and screw it up with one or two careless out crosses.
> If you want nice dogs out cross to the best you can find and select the best produced.
> If you want to develop a line of dogs it will only be a line through inbreeding, outcrossing will never solidify a consistent line.


No such thing as intellegent inbreeding. 
Line breeding staying in the same breed line now thats intelligence. Inbreeding or lienage breeding if you will has been since Jay lushes time frowned upon due the 120% depleted genes due such ignorance (lack of knowlwdge) inbreed is inbreed an not pure . Why you can't just get any old pup papered. He came along way from those few far an select. The goal is to not inbreed , there is no need for it. Many breeds in a line have sire s an dams that don't an are not related unless idi is present.


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald

Bottom line is that in/line breeding decreases modes of inheritance and diversity within the line.
Decreases available response mentally and physically to conditions encountered.
It works, until it doesn't anymore. It creates the inevitability that it WILL cease to work.
Its a reductive measure that can add nothing, only remove other options. As 1st go to, it is entropy for a breed.

It has its place, when traits sought aren't to be found else where. If restricted to those situations, its pit falls could be minimized and negligable.

Breeding outside the line increases modes of inheritance, and ability of response.

Line breeding is a short term solution to replicate a state of being. The value is objective, to a 'statehood' that must prove unsustainable. End of subject.(0r state being replicated)


Breeding beyond the specifics of known lines is the slower method, but retains direction allowing continuation of evolution, towards purpose.
The value then is subjective, to environment or purpose within it.

Line/inbreeding is the wrong application of value-Objective rather than subjective.
So in/line breeding contributes to the state the breed _is already in. I_t can not improve on that. You might get the better end of that particular string this time, but its the same piece of string and no amount of piecing together the best bits is going improve its usefullness.
Its belief in a state of being, over purpose, direction or potentials.


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