# Anyone seen teeth like this before?



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

http://qualityk9.ca/teeth1.jpg

http://qualityk9.ca/teeth2.jpg

My 2 year old malinois has stress markings on his teeth, I was worried they may break while doing bitework, however my vet said she had no idea what was going on. (typical) Since that visit, the markings have become even worst. 

I posted on L**rburg about 6 months ago, and they were no help.

Has anyone seen these markings before? And if so, should I keep him from biting sleeves and suits until he sees a K9 dental professional?

Any help would be great.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> http://qualityk9.ca/teeth1.jpg
> 
> http://qualityk9.ca/teeth2.jpg
> 
> ...



Oh yes! My dog has that exactly. I will post a pic later. I also inquired at one point if anyone had seen this and answer was "not really". The dog does NOT bite/chew on crate or anything w

I attributed it to the fact that my dog was not bred with a genetically full grip and does some serious tugging with a lot of pressure on the canines on a regular basis. I wondered if the dog doing this when enamal was being layed made those stress marks and they just discolour over time.

Other people have said that antibiotics when dog is young, illness, vaccine reactions can all cause teeth staining. I have a feeling that this type of teeth staining is not what they are talking about though. 

I have looked in canine dentistry picture catalogues on line and haven't seen it either, but may not know where to look.

My vet also had no clue, but was not worried. Teeth seem totally healthy and strong. My dog has had it for years now, still tugs hard, and has not broken a tooth yet. 

I have seen minor versions in a couple of other SAR dogs, but not too the same extent as your dog or mine.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Farley's teeth:
http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/farwesttoller/?action=view&current=teeth002.jpg

http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/farwesttoller/?action=view&current=teeth004.jpg


----------



## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

micro fractures in the tooth, it does weaken them over time, my PD lost a canine as it broke


----------



## Lisa Emerson (Mar 30, 2009)

I would guess a mild case of distemper teeth. I assume those adult teeth looked like that when they came in?


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Barrie Kirkland said:


> micro fractures in the tooth, it does weaken them over time, my PD lost a canine as it broke



Barrie, any idea if anything can be done to strengthen them?

Like a cap or something, to prevent a break?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, they certainly do exist. My granddog has two that he got when he was a young dog (pre-retirement).

This was not a cheap procedure.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

im not sure what can be done on the teeth in the condition they are in at the moment, i would think you would need to consult a dental vet

crowns can be placed on them as i know of PD that have had them

here is a link to a leading light in dental work in the UK

for your info only

http://www.dentalvets.co.uk/referral/crowns.html


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I would just really want to know why my dog and Ted's have this and not other people's dog's that bite/push/pull stuff for a living?

I mean we might surmize that BB is psycho on the bite and fractured teeth because of it...but how many of you are going to extend that theory to my Duck Toller (He does tug super hard...but come on)

What has made their teeth weak? Like I said, my dog does not chew his crate/kennel or do anything out of the ordinary other than hang off his teeth on a rag and tug crap out of the snow...

The comment about the distemper was interesting since my dog had some weird health crap for a bit as a youngster. Many felt (including a vet) it may have been a reaction to the distemper vaccine???

Ted, did your dog have any health issues when young? Vaccine reactions, antibiotics? Like I said...why would our dog's teeth be weaker than other dogs? Different breed even?

If you go to a dental vet let me know how it goes! I will be waiting until Farley's snap:| :|


----------



## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

I have met one police K9 with capped teeth, and one dog in our club has capped teeth. My one male may need his capped since he broke the tips off.... He isn't worked so I haven't worried about having it done yet. It's doable but I haven't checked into details.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I would just really want to know why my dog and Ted's have this and not other people's dog's that bite/push/pull stuff for a living?
> 
> I mean we might surmize that BB is psycho on the bite and fractured teeth because of it...but how many of you are going to extend that theory to my Duck Toller (He does tug super hard...but come on)
> 
> ...



First off "Mostly I use a low gold alloy called Argipal™ but, it makes the dog look fierce!"
hahaha, all the reason I need to start saving up for the procedure!

Jennifer, BB has been 100% healthy since I got him a 5.5 months of age. Zero antibiotics, complications..... and he has all of his shots, including lepto. 

I'm also wondering what could have contributed to this... since he's never been chewing on crate doors, His crate is painted black, and the finish is perfect, so I know he's not chewing on it. 

The only thing I can think of is him chewing on bones when he was younger, I used to give him bones to chew one, maybe this contributed.... however my other dog chewed the same bones, and he has perfect teeth.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

If you take a safety pin or other pointy edged thing and run it down the teeth can you feel grooves or is it totally smooth?

If it's smooth it's probably something that happened during the tooths development (exposure to some chemical, drug, environmental agent, etc) and the marks are internal, not from fractures. If you can feel little grooves/bumps as you run the pin over the tooth then it may be fractures. Depending on what caused the lines (minerals in the water can cause this in people) it may or may not make the teeth weaker. Depending on the cause, some minerals will do this, it's even possible it will make the teeth stronger. 

If they are fractures the teeth can actually repair themselves (remineralize) if the cause is gone, but if they are constantly causing new fractures the teeth will get weaker and caps might be in order. Mac has a cap on one canine because he chewed on chain link, the wear/tear on the tooth was going to eventually cause it to break so I capped it to prevent that. 

I've heard the term "distemper teeth" before, and also wonder if this might be caused in some dogs by the vaccines they recieve, which are all given while the adult canines are developing, about the time a pup starts teething is when they are also done with vaccines.

I'm not a dentist, but I'm friends with one who looked at some photos of a dog very similar to this for me awhile ago. But I will also second the person who recommended having a dentist look at the teeth.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> If you take a safety pin or other pointy edged thing and run it down the teeth can you feel grooves or is it totally smooth?
> 
> If it's smooth it's probably something that happened during the tooths development (exposure to some chemical, drug, environmental agent, etc) and the marks are internal, not from fractures. If you can feel little grooves/bumps as you run the pin over the tooth then it may be fractures. Depending on what caused the lines (minerals in the water can cause this in people) it may or may not make the teeth weaker. Depending on the cause, some minerals will do this, it's even possible it will make the teeth stronger.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info kadi.

I'm going to make an appointment to get his teeth assessed. I will have to wait for a while, because the dental vet who does this work, only comes up to Halifax from time to time since he's from Maine.

He works with a lot of police and schutzhund dogs, so I'll be interested in what he has to say.

I'll keep you guys on what he says.
thanks
-ted


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Kadi and Ted. Farley's teeth are definately smooth. No grooves felt at all. I can confirm that we do have water with a high mineral content here. Interesting about the distemper vax. Thanks so much for the additional info!


----------



## Lisa Emerson (Mar 30, 2009)

I didn't elaborate above, but it's certainly possible to have sub-clinical (so to speak) cases of distemper from a distemper vaccination. The "distemper teeth" used to be much more common than they are now, though, as I understand it.

This is one breeder's experience. I think it's a good read.

(One of many reasons I use recombinant vaccinations whenever possible. I have been waiting ever so patiently for them to approve the recombinant rabies vacc.)


----------



## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

The mineral content was my thought Jennifer. I know that people who drink well water with high mineral content get similar stains.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Dwyras Brown said:


> The mineral content was my thought Jennifer. I know that people who drink well water with high mineral content get similar stains.



Now that I think of it.....

BB has been on tap water his entire life, however, we do walk 3 times a day in a park near my house. he does drink from streams at least once per day. 

Maybe I could have the water tested at a clinic in town to see how this might effect him. 

I think we are on to something Jennifer, thanks for all the advice everyone!


----------



## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Lisa Emerson said:


> I didn't elaborate above, but it's certainly possible to have sub-clinical (so to speak) cases of distemper from a distemper vaccination.



I also read a study linking this with later cases of bloat.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

YEP! When they grab chainlink and bite it, it happens. All of my dogs have the same condition and this is part of the reason I switched to the Priefert kennels...


----------



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Lisa Emerson said:


> This is one breeder's experience. I think it's a good read.


Very interesting article, thanks for posting!


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

If the markings on the teeth were caused by an illness or mineral imbalance, wouldn't all the teeth be affected?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think it depends on when it happened, and where the tooth was in the development stage. In one of the photos that was posted it looks like there are lines on the large incisor right next to the canine on one of the dogs. But some of the smaller teeth might not take as long to develope (they do erupt in a fairly set order when a pup is teething) as the canines, so the canines would in theory have the longest exposure to whatever environmental/illness issue was causing the lines. 

About a month ago I was looking at photos in a dental book of lines on teeth that were caused by to much flouride, the lines were all on the front teeth, I don't recall them being back on the molars, so maybe some teeth are just more prone to having an issue? I'll have to ask.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I had to look twice at the incisors and one of the premolars in the top photo link. I'd be interested in clear photos showing all of the teeth.


----------



## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Certain antibiotics, given at certain ages, cause the same discoloration in humans. This discoloration occurs solely on the front teeth.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Certain antibiotics, given at certain ages, cause the same discoloration in humans. This discoloration occurs solely on the front teeth.


My dog has never been on antibiotics. So I have ruled this out. 

Nor has he ever chewed on his crate. 

I booked him in with the dental vet from the USA. I should know more in 3 weeks.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ted: did you run a pin over the teeth to find out if they were smooth or not?


----------



## Nick Bolton (May 1, 2009)

Does this ever happen in human teeth ? may be worth just asking your own dentist if he has every come across this in humans and then ask the question how why etc 

just a suggestion


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> YEP! When they grab chainlink and bite it, it happens. All of my dogs have the same condition and this is part of the reason I switched to the Priefert kennels...


As Ted has also stated, my dog has NEVER chewed his crate, chain link or any such thing.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> If the markings on the teeth were caused by an illness or mineral imbalance, wouldn't all the teeth be affected?


As can be seen in the pictures I posted of Farley's teeth, the markings are seen on other teeth as well. They are not quite as prominant however.


----------



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I would also be likely to rule out minerals in the water. If this were the case, would'nt a large population of dogs in several areas show this? I've raised dogs in the mountains in very "hard" well-water and never seen this. It seems like if it were a local water thing, more dogs would be effected or if only few were effected, they would be dogs with generally weak systems.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Could it be something as simple as a genetic defect? My boy had genetically soft tooth enamel so his canines were capped.


----------

