# Opinion?



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

What do you think of this dog, doing a little SCH-training here? Seen his mother a few times and liked her work. Good or average? A sister to this dog is going to have a litter so I´m a bit intressted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPutv0juD-U&feature=channel_page


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Hello Erik,

Looks like a nice dog to me. He seems to have good self-control and likes to use his body to fight. I'd be interested to hear what the more experienced people have to say.

What is the pedigree of the litter?

Thanks,
Julie


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

This dogs father and mother,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/333589.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/431745.html

His sister are going to be breed to this stud, pedigree and some film,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/467101.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34gtUJRPh-g


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

The stud is very nice, huh? All of the dogs look very solidly built as well.
Keep us posted on the litter and updated if you get a puppy.

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

IF it was a repeat breeding of the litter that produced this dog, then I would look at the littermates and see if they are as good.

A sister is a whole nother ball game.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Nice dogs, that Figo is very intense, wow.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Jeff, 

the sister is a littermate to the first dog shown, so at least one of her littermates seems good. The sister that is going to be breed is a IPO 3, participated in the norweigian IPO championship, 92p in protection, some pics of her,
http://ipohund.com/gal/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=85

As I said before, have seen her mother in action and always liked here, working PP/security-dog and also several times participated in the championship in swedish style of SCH, winning in 2005, some pics of her in competition,
http://home.online.no/~eli-wold/maxxasmamma.cfm


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Is there a repeat breeding coming up??? I would go there first. Now if this dog is knocking out good pups, then that is different, but I would see about a repeat first before going to her.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

No, it´s not a repeat breeding, but the mother to the bitch have had one litter before that have been used in breeding, and the bitch´s father como v rurdamm have had many litters after him. So the lines in this combination are pretty wellknown and tested.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So the dogs sister is the bitch you want a pup out of, and she has produced well before.

I was saying that if you like this male, don't go to his sister, go to his father, preferably a repeat breeding of what produced him.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes the dogs sister is the bitch that is going to be breed, she hasn´t have any litters yet, her mother had 2 two, and her father had many. I see what you are saying now, but I´m not aware of any litters from the stud that produced the male in the first video, there are offspring of him now being used in breedings, like the bitch of this litter. Hopefully this will be a good combination and produce dogs similar to the dogs in their background, I guess the odds would be it could be a nice litter when the dogs in the pedigree have produced well before. Or is it common a line just start to produce crapdogs if the dogs behind a particular stud had produced well before?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If a combination rocked, then why go to something else if you don't have to ??


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, sooner or later you have too when certain dogs don´t live forever
I guess that what breeding is all about, found good dogs that reproduce themselves and then continue breeding with strong dogs from their offspring in turn.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You are just looking to get a dog ? Or are you considering starting a breeding program ???

I thought you just wanted a dog that worked like that one did. ](*,) ](*,)


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

No breedingprogram, but if there aren´t a repeat litter available I guess the next best thing would be to go for a combination that are close related to the type of dog you like.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Do you know the owner of this dogs father ?? Is the father still alive ??


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes, he´s alive, was breed like crazy a few years ago, it´s time for his sons to be used know I suppose. The owners site and info about como,
http://www.imzedrift.com/como_info.htm

He seems to produce above average when it comes to carachter, the few dogs I´ve seen from him were all pretty impressive, I guess depending on the bitch he also has some medium dogs, like all studs. Found two other of his sons on film,
http://www.oddvarg.no/video/Cantona Odd Ivar Protection.wmv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihfq51Feiso


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Como has a very strong pedigree..Amigo was said to be an excellent dog. His brother Aron was owned and used extensively by Jon Jabina. Aron was a tough, hard dog with alot of social aggression. Amigo was said to be more approachable then his brother Aron. His offspring typically needed experienced handlers who could correctly raise a dog with that much drive and aggression. I know from Jon Jabina that these dogs needed someone who could best raise that type of alpha dog. You have Yoschy and then bring in Crok to that mix-you could get some handler aggression in those lines. I would anticipate very strong dogs. I can see why Como was used extensively. Those are the kind of dogs that Imzedrift uses in their breeding program. 

The male the sister is being bred to is also very nice...talk to people who know him, then progeny. Even though the sister hasn't had a litter, she's being taken to a proven male. This male's sire is Angbrackens Rosso, great dog. Rosso is a son of Kimbo Karthago..I had a few litters by Kayos Karthago, Kimbo's brother. Good strong bloodlines....Could be a nice breeding.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

We have a Como son in our club out of Como X Yetty van Rowey. The Como son has extreme prey drive and extreme genetic grips. When he bites, he punches through the bite very strongly and has very full, hard grips that don't change under stress. This type is excellent for sport, as the extreme prey and grips really help in obedience and protection. The Como son's prey drive creates extreme possessiveness and interferes with the dog being able to think clearly at times, and outing has been a problem. The dog has excellent handler hardness, and strong compulsion has been required on the dog, and corrections have little effect, with some handler aggression from corrections, but nothing problematic. This dog also has a very high threshold, is very stable and social. I'm not so sure these genetics bring enough of other desirable traits for bitework, so as to consistently produce good police dogs. The dog in our club has produced some nice pups, but they largely show the extreme prey and grips, and tend to lack in anger. Also, watch for issues with slick floors.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chip Blasiole said:


> We have a Como son in our club out of Como X Yetty van Rowey. The Como son has extreme prey drive and extreme genetic grips. When he bites, he punches through the bite very strongly and has very full, hard grips that don't change under stress. This type is excellent for sport, as the extreme prey and grips really help in obedience and protection. The Como son's prey drive creates extreme possessiveness and interferes with the dog being able to think clearly at times, and outing has been a problem. The dog has excellent handler hardness, and strong compulsion has been required on the dog, and corrections have little effect, with some handler aggression from corrections, but nothing problematic. This dog also has a very high threshold, is very stable and social. I'm not so sure these genetics bring enough of other desirable traits for bitework, so as to consistently produce good police dogs. The dog in our club has produced some nice pups, but they largely show the extreme prey and grips, and tend to lack in anger. Also, watch for issues with slick floors.


Hey Chip, 
Yes I agree with you about the Como son in your club, he is VERY nice. In fact I think he is a national caliber sport dog and would have also made a fine police dog. I wish I could have bought him from Mike a few years ago when he was loosly discussing selling him. I have worked him several times and I really love the dog!


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi Mike. The thing that sets the Como son apart for me is they way he explodes into the bite, especially out of a guard and his vise-like grips. He punches the sleeve like a heavyweight boxer throwing a punch, and then is very strong in the way he swallows and dominates the sleeve. Are these traits consistent with what you are hearing Erik, about the Como lines you are looking at?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

On the website it says Tim Cruiser. Here in the states ???


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Chip,
what I´ve heard from people who have seen more offspring is that he produces above average in drive, a bit handler hard, overall nice dogs when it comes to drives and mentality. Como himself is a very strong dog, but also have a portion of dominance that may not be so easy to handle for sportwork, his previous handlers in Europe didn´t manage to title him, so he was then sold to Sweden and did actually obtain a SCH1. 

I´ve also heard that his father amigo, and also aron was very dominant dogs, to dominant some say with some nerveproblems, have bitten several of their handlers badly. That´s why amigo was sold to US and aron to denmark where he later bit a judge and was forbidden to be used in breedings anymore.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't know anything about Aron or if his biting a judge had anything to do with nerve issues, but if it didn't and his aggression stemmed more from dominance, , it could be another loss to the gene pool for the breed. Banning him from breeding seems like an overly conservative approach. It seems like a dog that might have that level of aggression, provided he didn't have severe nerve issue, would be tolerated or even valued in a different dog culture such as Holland/KNPV.


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## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> On the website it says Tim Cruiser. Here in the states ???



Jeff,
It was here in the states, but was Kevin Lanouette, not Tim. Kevin handled the female that was bred to Como. Her name was Yetty van Rowey, a nice bitch, she was imported in whelp by Como. This is the litter that produced the dog Chip is speaking of.

John


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Erik,
Here is a link to some recent video of the Como son I was telling you about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtufmYNPabE
He gets a little spazzy coming into the blind due to anticipating a correction for being dirty.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Erik,
> Here is a link to some recent video of the Como son I was telling you about.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtufmYNPabE
> He gets a little spazzy coming into the blind due to anticipating a correction for being dirty.


WTF was that supposed to be I hope not Schutzhund good god I haven't seen training like that for a very long time.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

In my humble opinion, I saw a dog that might have some potential if the handler was expecting the dog to do what it was told.. I kept hearing Platz...but I never saw it, not that in itself is important but you should have a bottom line to start with.

The dog was anticipating yes, but it seemed like it was the norm because he expected it from the start of the video through to the end.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There's a bit of dog there, I have to admit I was not expecting that. The training ????????????????   #-o


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I suppose it is easy to form opinions without really having a feel for the dog in person and appreciating his level of drive. Gerry, the handler does not use platz as a command, so I don't know what you were hearing. If people have some constructive ideas about the training, we are open to hearing them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Whenever I see a pinch used like that with the only effect being that the dog pumps up, I am going to say that the training was not so good.

When the handler tells the dog to out, it sounds like platz. LOL

Do you have any video of the dog doing OB ??? I would need more than just that video to be of any use.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff,
The handler uses "los" for out. I have mentioned to the handler that it is a balancing act with the compulsion. He needs to use compulsion for control, but it also kicks the dog into higher drive, especially in the bitework, and that is the root of the conflict. I'll see about getting some video of obedience. The dog's obedience is nice and much less conflicted because there is no sleeve involved. The dog is crazy for a ball/tug and outs much better on the toy in obedience that doesn't involve protection. When I reviewed the video, I noticed that the handler could do a little better by holding the leash a little further from the collar so that there is more slack after a correction and less of a constant pull, which just stimulates oppositional reflex. He might also try correcting the prong to the side rather than straight back. Also, I think he has developed a habit of correcting the dog as soon as he starts heeling him out on the field, which sets up the conflict right off the bat, and we have discussed all these issues. But again, I think with this dog, it is easy to be critical when you don't have the dog on the end of the leash yourself. We have used the e-collar on the dog, and that requires very high levels of stimulation to have an effect, and the result is the dog becoming even more conflicted and very aggressive. The handler has worked very hard on making sure the dog respects him and doesn't let him get away with anything, especially in non protection obedience. Mostly, I think this is a good problem to have with a dog. IMO, this dog should be bred much more than the few times he has been used at stud.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

So, the handler does not use "platz" as a command???? First he says "sitz" and then when the dog is stting, he says "platz" or "lass" = "leave". It doesn't really matter - the dog did neither. Or maybe the dog's name is "Max" 
Not my kind of handling - more blocking than anything else.

The dog didn't out on command - leave off the lead and the dog will do a good job probably but the handler will have a ""2" on his back.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Chip,

I actually heard that compulsion didn´t work with como when he was in belgium, his new owner in Sweden fixed the out with a clicker I believe Also the como son I posted a video of before, cantona, would never be in the WUSV, according to the handler if it not was a combination of experience from his handler combined with both demands and positive reinforcement in the training. Trying to train such a dog with force will probably just work against you, with more conflicts and stress as you described.

Cantona taking the helper down, and another como son in a little trainingsession for the swedish biteworkprogramm,

http://oddvarg.no/video/Cantona nm ipo 07.mpg 

http://www.dengilidengan.se/filmer/henrik_diezel.wmv

There is a PSD after como who produced 10 policedogs in two litters, very nice looking dog also,
http://hasselagotland.se/servlet/GetDoc?meta_id=1415


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

The handler uses sit for sit, los for out and af for down. He tries to get the dog to sit to get some control and help the dog settle before trying to out him. Often the dog will wrap his front legs around the helper's legs after a bite, making it very difficult for the helper to correctly position himself. The dog is physically, very strong.. Leaving the dog off lead will result in the dog totally ignoring the handler. A good exercise for this dog is to use a right and left sleeve, heel the dog up to the helper and make him sit and remain calm, then the helper pops the sleeve, get the dog to out, and quickly pop the other sleeve as a reward for outing, and repeat several times. The extreme nature of this dog's prey drive, possessiveness and handler hardness make the training very challenging.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Yes, it is easy to criticise when you are not holding the leash, I agree. But, on the other hand, I had similar problems in Schutzdienst but have more or less solved them by making my dog heel from the moment I get on to the field. I can't get him to heel as in obedience but he doesn't pull me. At the beginning someone held the long lead from the car to the field and I had him on a short, loose lead. When he tried to lunge forward, I gave him the command to "stay by me" (no need here to heel but the lead must remain loose) the other chap popped him one. 

On the field, he had to heel (Fuss) to about 20 m away from the hide, sit beside me and when he looked up at me I gave him the command "Voraus" and without conflict he was in front of the helper and not as in the video, uncertain for a second.

My dog is 45 kilos, coupled with great muscle strength and not easy to be held by a strong man, let alone me and his drive is intense.

Pulling him back on the lead and letting him pull me to the helper would not have got me anywhere. The dog realised the quicker he looked up at me, the quicker he could go to the hide.

That's why I said "without the lead, the dog will do his job but the handler will have a "2" on his back, i.e. I can't see how he will ever get control of the dog.

Even strong dogs with strong drives are capable of obeying and work no worse because of it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Any video of Como ????


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