# Why?



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

From another thread, but, why do some breeders find it so hard to look at the pups they are producing and not be able to tell which are the standouts at a glance. Yes, I can understand a buyer having trouble, but a breeder? While nothing is 100%, the breeder himself ought to know what he sees.....at least I would think. My question is how many of the breeders can confidently pick their pups for the customer? I would suspect it is done all the time by most breeders.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> From another thread, but, why do some breeders find it so hard to look at the pups they are producing and not be able to tell which are the standouts at a glance. Yes, I can understand a buyer having trouble, but a breeder? While nothing is 100%, the breeder himself ought to know what he sees.....at least I would think. My question is how many of the breeders can confidently pick their pups for the customer? I would suspect it is done all the time by most breeders.


standout at what though Don?

at a glance? just a glance?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

At a glance??? Hardly Joby, the breeder is supposed to know their dogs intimately and he raised them from birth. That isn't exactly at a glance. So, what I am wondering is if James Downey, the poster that called bullshit, along with the rest of the "breeders in the know", (according to him) are just guessing at what they are producing and basically flying blind. I just don't think that most breeders are are operating on guesswork and selling their best stock to nobodies. Maybe he is right and that is the way it is done today. Just don't think the "ones in the know" operate that way.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> From another thread, but, why do some breeders find it so hard to look at the pups they are producing and not be able to tell which are the standouts at a glance. Yes, I can understand a buyer having trouble, but a breeder? While nothing is 100%, the breeder himself ought to know what he sees.....at least I would think. My question is how many of the breeders can confidently pick their pups for the customer? I would suspect it is done all the time by most breeders.


Breeders might be able to pick the standout or best puppy FOR THEM AND THEIR style of training and nurturing. But unless they know the handler very well they can't be nearly as accurate. 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> From another thread, but, *why do some breeders find it so hard to look at the pups they are producing and not be able to tell which are the standouts at a glance.*...


Hopefully you can see why I asked Don, as your initial post seemed to imply that a breeder should be able to identify standouts at a glance...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The trainer should be able to train a good, solid dog. All a breeder can do is tell them which is the strongest, most solid dogs in the litter. If the trainer isn't qualified to train em, there just isn't much can be done about that. Some pups are extremely close and it isn't going to matter because any of those dogs can cut the mustard.

What I can't help but wonder is why "some" think it is so complicated for a breeder to pick the outstanding pups. Is it because they handle and condition them so much they can't see the differences? Is it because they use someone elses dogs for stud that they just really don't know that well but has a title? Is it because there is just a huge variation, due to breeding methodology, in the pups across the board they can't decide? Is it hobby breeding maybe? Maybe it is just a gross lack of experience. Just what is the problem.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Just what is the problem.


People try to make it more complicated than what it needs to be.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The trainer should be able to train a good, solid dog. All a breeder can do is tell them which is the strongest, most solid dogs in the litter. If the trainer isn't qualified to train em, there just isn't much can be done about that. Some pups are extremely close and it isn't going to matter because any of those dogs can cut the mustard.
> 
> What I can't help but wonder is why "some" think it is so complicated for a breeder to pick the outstanding pups. Is it because they handle and condition them so much they can't see the differences? Is it because they use someone elses dogs for stud that they just really don't know that well but has a title? Is it because there is just a huge variation, due to breeding methodology, in the pups across the board they can't decide? Is it hobby breeding maybe? Maybe it is just a gross lack of experience. Just what is the problem.





Don Turnipseed said:


> The trainer should be able to train a good, solid dog. All a breeder can do is tell them which is the strongest, most solid dogs in the litter. If the trainer isn't qualified to train em, there just isn't much can be done about that.


It's not just a matter of training a good solid dog. It's a matter of bringing THE MOST out of that good solid dog. I see dogs all the time that are good solid dogs that I would never train. Sometimes it's because the dog doesn't have the personality or temperament type that would motivate me to work with him 15 to 20 hours a week. Or sometimes the dog has problems that I can't or don't want to spend time fixing. With me that good solid dog will never be worked at or near it's full potential. But if the breeder gave that same good solid dog to another handler they might be the next world champion or Osama killer.



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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> It's not just a matter of training a good solid dog. It's a matter of bringing THE MOST out of that good solid dog. I see dogs all the time that are good solid dogs that I would never train. Sometimes it's because the dog doesn't have the personality or temperament type that would motivate me to work with him 15 to 20 hours a week. Or sometimes the dog has problems that I can't or don't want to spend time fixing. With me that good solid dog will never be worked at or near it's full potential. But if the breeder gave that same good solid dog to another handler they might be the next world champion or Osama killer.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


I would think bringing the most out of a good confident, solid dog would be far more productive than bringing the most out of any dog that is something less than that. Chris, are you speaking from the viewpoint of an end user or a breeder?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I would imagine the longer the breeder has been at it, and the more tightly they are bred, the more the breeder would have a really good idea how the pups would turn out.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Breeders might be able to pick the standout or best puppy FOR THEM AND THEIR style of training and nurturing. But unless they know the handler very well they can't be nearly as accurate.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


I think this explains a lot. I am speaking from the POV of an observer and consumer, not a breeder as I've not bred a litter myself. Since I've been here with Mike, he and I discuss our thoughts on the litters and which puppies stand out and why. This is the conclusion I have come to: 

With the exception of the puppies a breeder keeps back, the breeder doesn't have much (if any) control on how they are raised, trained and worked once they leave. When a pup doesn't work out for the customer, is it genetics, the breeder's selection or the interaction the pup receives once it leaves the breeder's facility? Again, I don't believe the owner is always at fault. I do believe some pups can look like super stars when they are young and then fizzle out (and vice versa). And I do believe that breeders can be wrong in their evaluation of a litter. But I am a firm believer that nurture can be as strong or stronger than nature. I think with the strongest and weakest pups, there's not a whole lot you can do to screw them up or make them better. If they have genetically bulletproof nerves, it's going to be tough to ruin that unless you're completely incompetent or trying to. If you have a dog with no drive to work (I hesitate to say prey drive because of the debate that may ensue), it's going to be extremely difficult to raise the dog in a way that will influence that dog's genetic drives. However, for the puppies who don't fall on one end of the spectrum or the other, I believe the way the puppy is raised makes a tremendous difference. If the breeder is competent, experienced and reputable and is familiar with what particular lines produce and what type of dog is best suited for the customer's purpose, I would trust that they are selecting the best puppy for that purpose. If the puppy falls short, I believe nurture could play a big part in that.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I would imagine the longer the breeder has been at it, and the more tightly they are bred, the more the breeder would have a really good idea how the pups would turn out.


I agree with that but at the same time I would say I would not trust any other person to pick out a puppy for me. I have gotten dogs from people who have selected a puppy and it's not the puppy I want . what 1 person sees or likes in a dog is not the same as what I may see or like in my dog. and I would definitely not trust anyone to pick a dog for me who isnt involved for training in the same type of things that I am.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I would imagine the longer the breeder has been at it, and the more tightly they are bred, the more the breeder would have a really good idea how the pups would turn out.


That is probably very true.... but it is of little value unless the breeder knows his clientele,,, very well, in order to choose for them .

People ought to know what they're looking at, if they're looking for something in particular, for a particular role ? No ?

I supppose what I may be getting at is; the breeder should not be the one to say.....this one is for yoo! Sorry, Don just really makes me laff sometimes, it's bleeding into my reply.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> But I am a firm believer that nurture can be as strong or stronger than nature.


Agree wholeheartedly!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Britney agreeing with Ariel, thats a first...lol.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I depends a ton on what the person is actually going to do with the dog, and their training approach, and their preference.

a confident solid dog is one aspect of many. There are lots of other considerations, depending on who eventually gets the pup, and what they are going to do with it.

when you say "standout" pup, stands out in what way? 

there are a lot of dogs that are confident, that will not be suitable for what the person wants to do with them if they lack in other areas.

Since you started this thread Don. Aside from "confidence" (lets say for the sake of conversation all the pups are equally "confident") What is a standout to you after the confidence?

You do realize that other people do things that are drastically different with their dogs than what you do with yours, which may have an influence on what they are looking for.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Britney agreeing with Ariel, thats a first...lol.


lol, not really.. it's actually a fairly frequent occurrence. Perhaps just not on the WDF


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, if I whelped and raised the litter, I've certainly known which were better suited for certain venues. Same if I get to evaluate a litter at 3,5, 7 weeks and I've picked one. Haven't been wrong yet on it being able to do what I wanted it to do. The breeder starts it. The trainer finishes it and can make or break the puppy.


T


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, if I whelped and raised the litter, I've certainly known which were better suited for certain venues. Same if I get to evaluate a litter at 3,5, 7 weeks and I've picked one. Haven't been wrong yet on it being able to do what I wanted it to do. The breeder starts it. The trainer finishes it and can make or break the puppy.
> 
> 
> T


This is kind of it though isn't it ? This is where I get a wee bit mixed up. Folks really not ought to be loooking for a particular quality until they know what they are looking at...at least when we're starting to talk something meaningful. I think I have that approach because I am of the belief first time/novice dog owners have no business getting a dog to train in sport or venue until they have some experience/knowledge in dogs and dog ownership/experience. Not saying it is right, but it is my view. I liken it to someone learning to ride a horse. You have to learn to ride the horse before you can practice the dressage.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> This is kind of it though isn't it ? This is where I get a wee bit mixed up. Folks really not ought to be loooking for a particular quality until they know what they are looking at...at least when we're starting to talk something meaningful. I think I have that approach because I am of the belief first time/novice dog owners have no business getting a dog to train in sport or venue until they have some experience/knowledge in dogs and dog ownership/experience. Not saying it is right, but it is my view. I liken it to someone learning to ride a horse. You have to learn to ride the horse before you can practice the dressage.


Yes, to a certain point. For me there are general things like people and environmental soundness/adaptability. For anything work/performance, that's a gotta have and I don't waver on those. Then depending on what they want to do, I look at other things. There are always the pups that make wonderful companions but I wouldn't consider them for work/performancefor whatever reasons. I just looked at a litter to pick a puppy for someone who will do herding and agility. The puppy I chose was rock solid with sustained interest herding-wise and had just the right structure for the breed without being overdone or two big. I observed the litter since they were two weeks old and tested them at 7 weeks. As for he novice person, I don'tknow--you have to start somewhere and hopefully the breeder and/or training instructorcan mentor. As a breeder if you don't do those venues, it pays to go out and observe them. I've gone to watch my pups compete and/or I get video. That keeps me up on things although I will never be able to keep all those agility venues and titles straight. 

T


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don it depends what you call a breeder. I would think someone who has had a dozen or so litters has breed dogs as an experiment. I would think they would have a better idea of what one of their pups might be. Like anything else the more experience the better. The only way I can see this type of skill being learned is from experience. Not from listing to what someone else tells you. 
I would think the guy who has seen 20 generations of litters from a line of dogs would have an understanding of what pups traits will likely be as they grow. For the rest of us people I guess there may be a few general traits that may show with some form of test? If anything these test may help very minimal to slightly increase the chance of a pup being what is wanted.
This is something that has to be experienced over years. It would be interesting to hear the conclusions from the few of the people on here who have been breading the same lines for many years and have witnessed a few hundred dogs go from pup to older. 
Ariel I don’t really get what you are getting at? I think you are saying you believe nurture can be stronger than nature but not for the strongest or weakest of the ends? I would also think that nurture is important but would think proper nurture could really do a lot for the weakest or maybe even more for the weakest than another group?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

off-topic flaming deleted


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

off-topic flaming deleted


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

continuation of flaming deleted


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Don it depends what you call a breeder. I would think someone who has had a dozen or so litters has breed dogs as an experiment. I would think they would have a better idea of what one of their pups might be. Like anything else the more experience the better. The only way I can see this type of skill being learned is from experience. Not from listing to what someone else tells you.
> I would think the guy who has seen 20 generations of litters from a line of dogs would have an understanding of what pups traits will likely be as they grow. For the rest of us people I guess there may be a few general traits that may show with some form of test? If anything these test may help very minimal to slightly increase the chance of a pup being what is wanted.
> This is something that has to be experienced over years. It would be interesting to hear the conclusions from the few of the people on here who have been breading the same lines for many years and have witnessed a few hundred dogs go from pup to older.
> Ariel I don’t really get what you are getting at? I think you are saying you believe nurture can be stronger than nature but not for the strongest or weakest of the ends? I would also think that nurture is important but would think proper nurture could really do a lot for the weakest or maybe even more for the weakest than another group?


Chris, I got to agree with you on the test for this, the test for that. I don't test for anything, but, I do know the best dogs in a litter without all the mumbo jumbo that is so popular today. A good solid dog should do the job. There are factors such as dependence and independence that would strongly test the trainers ability in specific venues. Don't need a test for that either. Other than that, a lot of this is pointless other than rationalizing as to why it is so difficult to pick a great pup.. From many responses, I would say the breeder is pissing up a rope if he is breeding for confident, strong dogs when he should be actually breeding for the marginal dogs everyone is wanting. I do realize, many of the responses are coming from those that don't breed at all, when the question was aimed at actual breeders, but, not knowing what one is talking about is par for the course here.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel I don’t really get what you are getting at? I think you are saying you believe nurture can be stronger than nature but not for the strongest or weakest of the ends? I would also think that nurture is important but would think proper nurture could really do a lot for the weakest or maybe even more for the weakest than another group?


Yes, your second sentence is what I was trying to say. To answer the question about how nurture could possibly do more for the weakest puppy, the best example I have is confidence/nerve strength.

If you have a puppy with terrible nerves, you may be able to expose them to enough things early on to the point that the puppy can function and have a somewhat normal life. But you will never be able to change the part of that puppy's genetic makeup that causes it to be unable to deal with stress. On the other end of the spectrum, I have seen dogs that were born and raised in a very controlled environment with little to no socialization or environmental exposure that matured into dogs with unflappable nerves and confidence and the abliity to easily recover from a stressful situation with no lasting ill effects.

As you move away from these two ends of the spectrum, I believe the "nurture" becomes more important in pushing a puppy towards one side or another. A "middle of the road" puppy can be socialized and exposed to a variety of environments and can wind up being as confident as the genetically strong puppy ...and vice versa.

Does what I said make sense?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> A good solid dog should do the job.


What job?


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

What the heck was up with inflammatory posts on this thread? I only see that they were deleted, but can't even figure out why they would have existed in the first place.. 


Guess I shouldn't be surprised!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In almost 50 yrs of being involved in dog training in one way or the other I've never been a breeder but I've never been disappointed with any pup I've selected out of a litter, in particular a litter I have watched from 3-4 weeks of age. 
I believe that nuture is a HUGE factor in how a dog turns out. The best dog can turn out to be crap in the wrong hands. the worst dog can be "improved" in the right hands....but I work hard to NOT pick that worst dog. Why would we?!
This is why a beginner needs to get their first pup from RELIABLE breeders. That should be a big help in matching the pup to the handler/owner.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> In almost 50 yrs of being involved in dog training in one way or the other I've never been a breeder but I've never been disappointed with any pup I've selected out of a litter, in particular a litter I have watched from 3-4 weeks of age.
> I believe that nuture is a HUGE factor in how a dog turns out. The best dog can turn out to be crap in the wrong hands. the worst dog can be "improved" in the right hands....but I work hard to NOT pick that worst dog. Why would we?!
> This is why a beginner needs to get their first pup from RELIABLE breeders. That should be a big help in matching the pup to the handler/owner.


Very well put Bob.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> What job?


Any job.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what is the definition of a good solid dog?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, if I whelped and raised the litter, I've certainly known which were better suited for certain venues. Same if I get to evaluate a litter at 3,5, 7 weeks and I've picked one. Haven't been wrong yet on it being able to do what I wanted it to do. The breeder starts it. The trainer finishes it and can make or break the puppy.
> 
> 
> T


Thank you T. Simple question, simple answer. I am with you. I don't need a crystal ball to see what is sitting in front of me. Apparently some do and we are in the minority according to James.... who leaves it up to guesswork apparently. I really can't imagine any breeder not knowing his/her dogs, but, I was informed that is the way it is. I think Mr Downey should probably just speak for himself because I think most breeders know what they have.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I was extremely fortunate to follow the lives of the litter from which I wanted a dog pup. The breed was Briard and it was my friend's second litter. 

I asked her to time the pup's speed from birth to reaching the teat. I wanted a male and there were three in the litter. I focused on the one that reached the teat first.

I went down nearly every day to watch the litter (especially when my friend, a music teacher, was at school.

I must stress that I had no experience of breeding but after owning a Landseer for 12 years, an idea what I now wanted from a dog.

There were three males and I tested their reactions to various undergrounds, i.e. concrete, lawn, earth, etc. from an early age. 

I ran among them shaking a peg sack and shouting (washing for the unenlightened), I blew the barbecue blowers at them, watched them go over obstacles, etc. blew over the top of a beer bottle. Nothing really frightening but I didn't know better.

My friend said my choice was the one who tried successfully to get out of the puppy run and when I persuaded her to take them all out at 6 weeks to the fields, she agreed. My first choice lead the whole litter and I was convinced it was "the one". One of his brothers passed every test (mine was cautious with the bellows) but the brother who passed every test never came forward when we visited. The third was more cautious.

I got what I wanted - a dog that was confident, loved to do sport without rewards, was quiet in the house but energetic outside.

It is possible Don, to pick out a good pup *but at what cost*? My friend was a hobby breeder - I had reserved time to check out the litter. Even as a near layman, it is not difficult to check out the weaknesses and strengths of each pup. 

I have heard that with well thought out breeds, there are not so many differences in the litter. But, they can go both ways - an aggression to vacuum cleaner can make one pup attack and another in the litter flee.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

At what cost Gillian. Not following you there. I don't test anything in particular. I am around the pups and I WATCH how they react to different things, to each other, etc. I take note on the recovery times when they are faced with things out of the ordinary. There is no cost for the breeder to be observant if they know what they are looking at. I know it can be iffy for the end user since they are not with the pups as much. My main focus is when they first come out of the whelping box. I want to see the dog BEFORE any environmental issues. I know from that which have the best "potential". This also tells me which ones may need more attention. I give it to those and, yes, by 8 weeks they look as good as the first.....but they are not. Never will be. Nice dogs maybe, but not the top of the heap if they need the extra help to bring it out of them. They are what they are, they are not what people want to rationalize they are.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

"At what cost?" I meant the time necessary to check out each pup. Ideally it should be possible but over here in Europe with pups (GSD) at about 700 Euros, the breeders need to have a job as well as breeding dogs. With at the most 10 pups in a litter (in Switzerland at least) and I think two litters in 18 months ( I think) it isn't a lucrative hobby.

Those who manage to do it have my admiration. But, the pup has to be sold and if the buyer wants a pup that appeals to him then the breeder can only "recommend" another, more not.

In the end it's a commercial business - whatever one's ideals are.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I just think I am being honest. Can I see a "special" puppy with obvious talent. Absolutley. Can I predict what I am going to get in terms of general temperment withing a litter yes....But I think in terms of a successful dog in sport or work, at least my sport and work...What is needed is so specific, and most of the time are attibutes you see in a mature dog, not a pup. You can see predictors. But there is no guarntee.

It's like going to a kindergarden class and be able to tell who is going to be able to go to war and not puss out, or who is going to running toward the enemy. 

No one knew Michael Jordan was going to be the best basketball player ever when he was a child. His High School coach I think it was, who told him to give up basketball that he was not good. No one knew Chesty Puller or Audie Murphy were going to be some of the bravest American Military Men ever. None of what was needed was apparent as children. In fact you here about all these "prodigies" that people predict are going to be great...and they flop.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thank you T. Simple question, simple answer. I am with you. I don't need a crystal ball to see what is sitting in front of me. Apparently some do and we are in the minority according to James.... who leaves it up to guesswork apparently. I really can't imagine any breeder not knowing his/her dogs, but, I was informed that is the way it is. I think Mr Downey should probably just speak for himself because I think most breeders know what they have.


You cannot imagine a breeder not knowing his/her dogs? You played the lead role in reality T.V. show called, "The Seed knows best"

You could not even call it right with a grown dog, Whether dog was scared or not....You said he would do the work. I rest my case. I think a guy who knew his lines, from 20 + years of breeding would be able to tell if a dog he lived with for years would be able to accuratley predict how the dog would react to a stranger. 

But you can pick it out at 8 weeks, Just not at 4 years old. 

I can tell if a pup will have drive, If they like thier food, if they are independent or pack driven.... There are things you can see. But some parts of thier brains are not developed yet....like the part that gives them courage, and fight....That's big dog shit. And if we could pick it out as babies, with certainity. There would be no market for "green" dogs. There is a reason working dogs that 18 months that show they can work are worth more than pup. Because there is no risk in workability. at 18 months...what you see is what you get. At 8 weeks....What you see this week....It will be different next week. 

Also, Why are there no working trials for pups.... why for dogs? If we got the Seed, right here picking the next stud dogs at 8 weeks, and he claims he can do it with accuracy. If that were true.... Why do we have to show the world on a trial field. Don, can pre-ordain it. 

Never said there were not obvious pups every now and again.... Just wanna keep that clear but for the populous of dogs...just like children. We do not know until they are working.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

James is thinking right. It doesn't matter whether you are talking about kids, basketball players, dogs, horses, college students, whatever, potential is one thing, actually doing it is another. I guess Don could pick out a potential life mate for a wife when she was five as well. There are tons of people with 'potential' in prison, plenty of horses and dogs with 'potential' that have never done a thing except turn food to crap. It's not all the trainer's/owner's fault either. Some just progress due to mental toughness, some don't. Plenty like Darryl Strawberry who had all the potential in the world, but isn't worth the cost of a bullet. Dogs, people, horses, they all have a certain potential, but the large majority don't know how to reach that potential.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

For me the basic things are there and obvious at 5-7 weeks. I do the first round of tests at 3 weeks--then 5--then 7. You're right that certain traits don't kick in until 15 months--2 yrs in terms of courage and fight. That's the same for my livestock dogs. So far with the dogs that I've been absolutely unwavering in the area of people and environmental confidence [no recovery], those puppies developed the courage and fight. Every now and then you might have a sleeper but I would think but for the most part, if you have bred a line of dogs, certain things ought to distinguish the good ones early on. I say this of breeders who actually do the things they are selecting the dog/puppy for. I think that is what gives you a leg up. Raising and developing the puppy into that mature working dog and knowing what stages he went through and how he was affected by the training is what sets breeders apart. So yeah, instinct, drive people/environmental soundness--that's evident early on. Courage/fight or response to a threat is later. I think Stefan says he makes his initial puppy picks and then at 15 months he will see how the pup finally weighs in--from a protection/bite work perspective. 

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Vicki would find this discussion most helpful. 


Bless her little heart.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

James Downey said:


> You cannot imagine a breeder not knowing his/her dogs? You played the lead role in reality T.V. show called, "The Seed knows best"
> 
> You could not even call it right with a grown dog, Whether dog was scared or not....You said he would do the work. I rest my case. I think a guy who knew his lines, from 20 + years of breeding would be able to tell if a dog he lived with for years would be able to accuratley predict how the dog would react to a stranger.
> 
> ...


James, only an idiot would say he can't pick the most viable pup out of a litter of his own pups. Breeders been keeping the best for themselves since breeding began. Not you of course because you can only tell things like if they like the food they are eatingOne of my personaol favorites James.). You say you can't, others say it is a given. Oh, of course, I see Jim Stevens is right on your heels again. LMAO) Jim, whose must be a friend, is looking pretty stupid along with you. His dad had hounds all his life so he understands breeding. His family registered a horse every year for 50 years so he understands breeding. He whent to AI school for AI ing cattle. so he knows breeding dogs. Proudly displays his dogs linebred pedigree as if he bred it himself.... false credibility you know. Claims horses are inbred up the wazzoo and is really impressed with one that is bred to his half sisters. How many dog people just get goose bumps over a 1/2 bro/ 1/2 sis cross. One of the most common crosses in the dog world. I am impressed wih all the reasons he thinks he knows breeding dogs. I really am impressed. Give me a break. My folks were school teachers all my life... sure doesn't make me a school teacher. But Jim thinks he has to jump in and carry you every time you say something stupid. I would guess he had one of your dogs, but, looking at the pedigree, I know you didn't breed it. Maybe bought it that way. James, go back and read this last BS post and tell yourself you are a breeder.

You need to get a real life James. Last thread you lectured me on phenotype and genotype 'BECAUSE YOU READ SOMETHING YOU THOUGHT WAS PROFOUND" James, it may impress you reading stuff and thinking you have a clue what you are talking about, but don't lecture me about it because I can show both you and Jim all this stuff you read about in photos of my dogs.. But, once again, read your post and ask yourself if your reall breeder quality. Any breeder worth his salt can look at his own pups and tell what he has.


















\

James, all different parents and ages on these three girls.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Interesting thread but it is obvious is there is a difference between observing pups and"testing" them.
Some of the differences are :
Pup alone in testing no litter support
Pup is with a strange person in testing who is active not a familiar person who is passive
Pup is in strange place not comfortable stomping ground 
Pup will be confronted new and even startling event(dropped bucket on hard surface) 
Reactions to these and other new interactions are observed and recorded. Pups looked at serially provide information which may be suspected from observation but then again often different.
One caveat testing is snap shot in time.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Observing is good but, as Ed comments, testing is needed to verify what is seen in the observation. Still, the observation and testing can both be a total waste if it isn't followed through with the right handler. Thus the "snap in time".


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I think some breeders are kidding themselves that they can pick out the right pup for many different purposes. I would _prefer_ that the breeder that I'm dealing with have extensive experience in the sport/venue that I'm interested in.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Edward Weiss said:


> Interesting thread but it is obvious is there is a difference between observing pups and"testing" them.
> Some of the differences are :
> Pup alone in testing no litter support
> Pup is with a strange person in testing who is active not a familiar person who is passive
> ...





Edward Weiss said:


> Interesting thread but it is obvious is there is a difference between observing pups and"testing" them.
> Some of the differences are :
> Pup alone in testing no litter support
> Pup is with a strange person in testing who is active not a familiar person who is passive
> ...


That is a fact Ed. The breeder should know, before a test is even done, which dogs will do the best. Testing is for people that are not as familiar with the litter. The dog on my web, Curtis, was picked at 4 weeks, shipped at 6 . Did reasonably well for a dog with no protection breeding. Thye fellow that had him, had to get rid of all his dogs and Curtis ended up being a service dog for the blind. Totally different venues, but he was the best of the litter. 

Cowboy went to a trainer of 20+ years. He flew out from MD to pick a dog. He picked one. I told him Cowboy was a stronger dog, just smaller. He did his tests also and questioned why I think the other was a stronger dog. I yhad him get his pick, I got mine, and we drove over to Bass Lake, a recreational lake with people everywhere. I had him take one out about 15 yardsand drop it in the water. Then had him take the other out and do the same thing. Neither dog had been out of the yard or had ever been in the water. I took pictures of both dogs becauise I knew he wouldn't be able to see the difference. They were 7 weeks old at the time. He didn't see what I saw. Thje first picture is of that day and is of my pick on his first swim. Came out of his first swim, new environment tail, people and speed boats, with tail erect and acting like he owned the place. Customers pick was close but had to be dropped in the water 3 times before his tail came up. When he got to the bank, he froze up the first couple of times. He was a really good pup and was a close second. I really doubt if anyone could tell the difference in a test, he couldn't. Any good breeder should be able to look at his dogs and know what he has and what the limits of those different pups are. If they can't they should get a new hobby. As I explained to the trainer, that short recovery time for his pick will be the difference between winning and losing in competition today. The trainer took the pup I picked. Here are some pictures of that pup....again. LOL That dog can be left outside the mall in a down stay while he goes in and does his shopping. When nhe comes out, he always has ma crowd gathered around the dog and gets a lot of dogs in for training because of Cowboy. He doesn't have to sell people on his ability as a trainer, everyone can see it with the dog. That is what he told me he wanted, thats what he got. Any serious breed wants his dogs to be where they show the best. You can't do it if you can't tell what you hyave right in front of you. A breeder has to know if any particular pup is even capable of multitasking and what the pups limits will be. Seems like common sense to me but......


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> I think some breeders are kidding themselves that they can pick out the right pup for many different purposes.


Skip they aren't kidding themselves, they are trying to kid you.


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Don,the most viable pup as you put it doesnt always mean its the best.He might just be but no gaurantee.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

brad robert said:


> Don,the most viable pup as you put it doesnt always mean its the best.He might just be but no gaurantee.


Of course it does. Maybe it is a cultural or another terminalogy block, but "most viable", also known as the one with the "most potential", will always mean it is the best. We are talking in a specific litter. Doesn't mean any of the litter is worthy a shit, doesn't mean the pup is a world beater. It means this is the best dog in "THIS" litter. I keep hearing about testing for this and that, but, if a breeder is breeding for any specific venue(and breeding good dogs)he should know which dog is the best of the bunch without a doubt. Like I said, it is common sense. I have alwayus found it to hold very true that the most confident, strongest minded dog in a specific litter(of well bred dogs) will always outperform the littermates. If the most confident in a litter of pups can't do it better, what in the world would make anyone think a less confident one would do a high stress job better? :roll:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am begining to see the light here people. So many dogs have a hard time with really major things like changing fields, changing decoys and stuff because the strongest most confident dog just wasn't good enough and these dogs that fall apart were tested for the ease of training......because that is the way it is explained in the book or on the vid. Got it! :roll:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Of course it does. Maybe it is a cultural or another terminalogy block, but "most viable", also known as the one with the "most potential", will always mean it is the best. We are talking in a specific litter. Doesn't mean any of the litter is worthy a shit, doesn't mean the pup is a world beater. It means this is the best dog in "THIS" litter. I keep hearing about testing for this and that, but, if a breeder is breeding for any specific venue(and breeding good dogs)he should know which dog is the best of the bunch without a doubt. Like I said, it is common sense. I have alwayus found it to hold very true that the most confident, strongest minded dog in a specific litter(of well bred dogs) will always outperform the littermates. If the most confident in a litter of pups can't do it better, what in the world would make anyone think a less confident one would do a high stress job better? :roll:


hmmm. I sorta see what you mean...I agree with you, if the reason the less confident dog fails, is because he was not confident enough...
but cant agree 100%...it really depends on the actual job...I think.

there are alot of factors involved in whatever the dog's "JOB" is gonna be, I think confidence plays a huge roll, but a dog can be the most confident in a litter and be lacking in another critical piece of the pie...

I know you dont like to talk drives Don, but look at what most trainers of PSD (not sport) trainers, call drives.

one labeled as "hunt drive"...if the most confident pup in the litter is lacking in "hunt drive" that can for surely limit his effectiveness as a psd.

if he is lacking in "prey drive" but is the most confident, that is also going to limit his effectiveness as well.

say one wanted to have a dog guard a warehouse, if he is super confident, but lacks in being territorial, and does not see people as a potential threat, he is not gonna make a very good guard dog...a dog that was less confident, but was more territorial, and looked at everyone he could see through the door as a potential threat, he would make a much better guard dog.

food drive, "defense drive", possession, dominance levels also come to mind for a variety of things. 

confidence is important..but it is one piece of the pie. 

In a litter of dogs, nothing is equal..it is not like every trait is equal in all the pups, and the only one that differs is the level of confidence...

everything varies to some degree....and the most confident dog, might not be the best dog for the job...in my opinion. of course confidence is important, a dog has to be confident for most jobs...but that does not mean the most confident dog is gonna be the best for the job, just because he is the most confident. if that makes sense.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"there are alot of factors involved in whatever the dog's "JOB" is gonna be, I think confidence plays a huge roll, but a dog can be the most confident in a litter and be lacking in another critical piece of the pie..."

Joby, in the working dog world today, working dogs are bred for specific function. If the whole litter is well bred for that function, how can anyone, even without common sense, come to the conclusion that a less confident dog might be better? Of course, if they are not well bred, then it is a moot point and the breeder probably hasn't a clue anyway. I think we can agree on that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> "there are alot of factors involved in whatever the dog's "JOB" is gonna be, I think confidence plays a huge roll, but a dog can be the most confident in a litter and be lacking in another critical piece of the pie..."
> 
> Joby, in the working dog world today, working dogs are bred for specific function. If the whole litter is well bred for that function, how can anyone, even without common sense, come to the conclusion that a less confident dog might be better? Of course, if they are not well bred, then it is a moot point and the breeder probably hasn't a clue anyway. I think we can agree on that.



damn you are obtuse...I thought that was pretty well laid out, even for you...

ok take a function Don...PSD...(dual pupose...detection and Patrol work)

A breeder that is trying to produce suitable PSD pups in a litter...
There are an entire package of traits that goes into what a PSD needs to be effective at its job.

Those traits, even though the breeder is a good breeder and breeds good dogs, still vary in the litter. They are not all equally distributed all the time. Breeding dogs do not always distribute all of the traits equally into the litter...that is just how it goes....

Lets assume the pups are all confident enough to do the job of a PSD. Whatever that really means, lets says nerves or whatever...The entire litter is confident and has good nerves...ok are you with me so far?

now the breeder is satisfied with the confidence, that is priority number one, confident dogs..there is even one pup that he can say is the MOST confident out of all of them...

The breeder keeps 5 pups that he likes out of the litter to raise to sell as PSD candidates, including the most confident of the bunch, the "superstar"...

now is looking at the other traits in the puppies, besides confidence..is working with them and observing them.

he tests the "hunt drive", the dogs persistent desire to look for and find something, whatever it is...

4 of the dogs of the litter show great "hunt drive" and the other one, (the Most confident dog in the litter) is really lacking in the hunt drive, doesnt care about looking for things that much, gets distracted, gives up, moves on to something more interesting to entertain his super confident mind...

this dog while being the most confident pup, whatever that is to you, would not be the best PSD out of the litter period. 

The traits in the package are always variable amongst littermates, they are not clones of eachother...

does that make sense?

do you think that it is a requirement for breeder to produce all traits equally in a litter for him to be a good breeder?

Dogs are bred for specific functions, but not all dogs in the litter are cut out for those functions, that is when they are sold for other functions, or become washouts. dogs wash out for a number of reasons, confidence is certainly one of them, but not the only one.

Confidence is only one factor that will influence the suitability, and YES it is a big factor, confidence is a requirement..cant work a dog that is not confident...but that simply does not mean that the MOST confident dog is gonna be the superstar...period...

a dog can lack in hunt drive...he can lack in an aspect of prey drive, like intensity or duration, he can lack in defense drive (if labeled that way) he can lack in bringing aggression into the work, a dog that is better in these areas will be better at the job than his most "confident" littermate, that is not as good in these areas...
hope that goes some way towards getting the point across...

even simplified..

here is a scenario
you have 2 dogs from a litter, they are fully trained to be PSD. one loves to search his ass off all day, will track for miles..wont quit...the other not so much, but he is more "confident"..which is the better PSD?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> damn you are obtuse...I thought that was pretty well laid out, even for you...
> 
> ok take a function Don...PSD...(dual pupose...detection and Patrol work)
> 
> ...


No, I am not obtuse at all Joby, you just like prattling on any subject just to see who will listen. You keep getting in on breeding discussions, but, seems you paid for two ads here because you can't tell if a dog is pregnant?? But everyone is supposed to take you seriously when discussing breeding. You will post to anything Joby, which is why I usually blow you off and ignore you. LOL So what may be lacking in your supposed 2nd or 3rd choice pup? We already know he has less confidence. He may search for miles but you just looking for ,a straight tracking dog? If he is lacking the confidence, it won't be the only thing he is lacking.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, I am not obtuse at all Joby, you just like prattling on any subject just to see who will listen. You keep getting in on breeding discussions, but, seems you paid for two ads here because you can't tell if a dog is pregnant?? But everyone is supposed to take you seriously when discussing breeding. You will post to anything Joby, which is why I usually blow you off and ignore you. LOL


oh ok Don.
Just like you "prattle" on about training, drive discussion, PP, working dogs(non-hunting) and sport dogs, that you have next to ZERO experience in.

I may have no mass produced 1000's of puppies like you have, but I do have some breeding experience, I have bred 17 litters, in the last 22 years. Which I would think qualifies me to contribute to a thread regarding the breeding of dogs.

Already explained why I paid for ads Don, they were taken out very shortly after the breedings were done, before even YOU yourself would have been able to tell, unless you have some magic method for that as well... at least I paid..instead of plastering the board with puppy updates and pics, without paying. so what, I got drunk one day, and got pissed off and posted about that practice...big deal, so that all of sudden means I dont know crap about breeding dogs.

you dont have to take me seriously Don, but what I said is how it actually IS..it is not some fantasy about having a litter, and saying that the most confident pup is gonna be the best at the job. 

Not surprised to see you dont care to carry on the topic because you are wrong, and then hurl insults. and then starting another thread to (again) talk about drives and dog training terms to deflect off of this topic......

dogs have a bunch of traits that will contribute to what they are suitable for, and how well they will do it.... confidence is only one of them, end of story....

my obtuse label was not made as a serious insult, it was meant to imply "hard headed", which you are....on this topic especially.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LMAO Foirst Many decides I am tryimng to cover for my curs in the other thyread, now you decide I am trying to deflect off this topic. Pray tell what are you doing when you post to every thread on here. You trying to cover something up Joby. Be interesting to see an actual gragh of some of your thought processes in action. LOL I have no intention of deflecting this thread because I am not wrong. Basically, what you are saying is you never could tell the best pup in any of your litters either, you were just breeding blind? Let me see you answer that last question and tell me I am wrong Joby. :grin:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, you have an excuse for posting the ads. Ok. Getting tired of hearing it I suppose. No more tired than I am of hearing of some of my misguided descisions I assure you. So, let me refreshy your memory, of course, for someone who has had 17 whole litters, wasn't that first ad the ones you advertised were going to be civil quality pups, PD quality, blah, blah, blah. Of course this was a first time breeding and you hadn't seen the pups. You can tell all that when a dog isn't pregnant and yet a breeder can't tell which is the best pup in a given litter. You almost got laughed off the board if memory serves. By the way, that graph of your thought processes is showing a flatline son.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, you have an excuse for posting the ads. Ok. Getting tired of hearing it I suppose. No more tired than I am of hearing of some of my misguided descisions I assure you. So, let me refreshy your memory, of course, for someone who has had 17 whole litters, wasn't that first ad the ones you advertised were going to be civil quality pups, PD quality, blah, blah, blah. Of course this was a first time breeding and you hadn't seen the pups. You can tell all that when a dog isn't pregnant and yet a breeder can't tell which is the best pup in a given litter. You almost got laughed off the board if memory serves. By the way, that graph of your thought processes is showing a flatline son.


Don...yes, that was a mistake to do that, it was really over the top hype, I admit that...and was taken to task for it...

However, I am confident that if the litter did take that there would have been more than a couple pups in that litter that fit the bill, as hyped though. Breeding Carlos to a strong Arko daughter is a sure way to produce that type of dog. they surely would be able to do more than lay down in front of a store, regardless if I dropped them in a lake to test them or not...Do you even have a small clue what type of dogs Carlos and Arko are? or how many "working dogs" they have produced?

Nobody needs an excuse to post an ad here...it is not an excuse, it an explanation...

At least if you google my name, the 3rd result is not a link about a possible puppy mill, *like it is if I google High Country Airdales*

*try it, here is the link to the google search...click on the third link*, and read what it says.. seems about right to me, all things considered when I read it a minute ago...unless you have something strong to refute what it says..."pops" (since I am your son now, I guess)

http://www.google.com/search?source...untry+airedales&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=high+c


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

In case you dont know the dogs at all that I was trying to breed from. Before you say they are just sport dogs, they are STUD dogs, dogs that were not sold as police dogs, because they were kept for breeding, by serious police dog breeders, instead of being sold as police dogs, although both scored high in sport.

here is the latest video of Carlos, the dog I was trying to breed to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkLYU1X5r6c 
here is writeup about him:
_Carlos is a medium, large dog with a nice dark brindle colour. He is one of four pups in a litter where all went on to become working dogs of the highest quality. His brother is the well known police dog Wibo Van Leeuwen and his two sisters are both high quality producers and workers as well, with one of them Quinty Cornelissen, being titled PH1. The other sister was exported to Mexico for breeding and security work.

Carlos is a very hard, very extreme and a brutal biting dog. He has big thresholds and needs a very experienced handler. He has also thrown these types of character traits to his offspring. Carlos's bloodlines go back to some of the KNPV' s best producers such as Rambo van Rossum and Rocky van Leeuwen.

Gerben Kamphuis says about Carlos " This is one hard biting, brutal, serious dog."_

and one of Arko, my females father.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaTKZrPuUqc

here is write up about him.

_Considered to be one of the top producing stud dogs for the KNPV program in Holland. Arko has drive, power, and courage like we have never seen in any dog and he passes these traits on to his offspring with amazing consistency. 

Arko has perfect hips, back and elbows. He has a very dominant temperament, with natural aggression and is a very serious dog on and off the field. His frontal attacks are the fastest and most violent that you could imagine, his grips are punishing to the decoy, and his fight drive is extreme. He has won every hard hitting contest he has ever competed in, in the USA and in Holland! He also served as a working security dog in Holland where he hospitalized many suspects. He has an outstanding KNPV pedigree.
_
and my dog. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8

just videos I know, nothing super impressive...but shows the dogs.

I am positive of one thing, if that breeding did take, it would never come up on google associated with the word Puppy Mill.

Is there any video of ANY of the High Country Airedales working out there?

you would think after 100's of litters, and 1000's of puppies there would be some...let me google it and see....

ok I found a couple that come up.

here is the first one, showing what happened after the master breeder of the dogs, who knows his dogs intuitively, and selected his best 2 dogs for the testing, predicted that they would have to pried off of the guys arm that tested them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4

this is the second one that came up, 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hm_jHjelpA

although it is not a video of High Country Airedales, it is of an Airedale Watch Dog Test. and it came up with the google video search for High Country Airedales because of the most recent response made, which was this..

"Your dog does not have the genetics.
You can see the Flight response in it at 1:06, ducking.
Might be an alarm dog, definately not a Protection dog, *neither are Highcountry﻿ Airedales, they run FROM trouble.*"

so are there any videos of your dogs successfully working a job, or doing anything out there, after 25 yrs of breeding "working dogs" and producing 1000's of puppies? If so can I have the links, google doesnt show any for like 25 pages, I know, I checked...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have seen all the stuff on google Joby. Started by the guy that was here on the WDF, and the same one that told you all the pictures I have were years old film shots and grainy.( Even though I have been using digital since it came out) I don't worry about that kind of shit Joby. It happens to a lot of people. Seem when your nobody, nobody cares to take the time to write shit like that. Oh, and I may have stepped on a few toes here and there because I don't mince words to much. By the way, got Bill Wanke( that is his real name by the way) removed from a bunch of boards.....so he don't like me much. LOL I have only read anything negative from one person that actually has one of my dogs. The rest have never seen them. Not the first time the link has been posted either son. Barriano beat you to it. LOL Yes, I have raised a lot of dogs....one heck of a lot more than 17 litters, which makes me far more qualified to know what to expect pof a pup than most. Also why I have 12 gen of pretty homogenous dogs. (Do you understand the word homogenous?). Possibly that is why I can tell a good dog just by watching them and most can't. Vastly more experience maybe. Naw, I have been able to tell the gooduns for years. LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ...
> Joby, in the working dog world today, working dogs are bred for specific function. If the whole litter is well bred for that function, how can anyone, even without common sense, come to the conclusion that a less confident dog might be better? Of course, if they are not well bred, then it is a moot point and the breeder probably hasn't a clue anyway. I think we can agree on that.


what is the specific function your working dogs are bred for Don? aside from sitting in front of a store, or doing therapy work...as you stated some of your best working dog pups have done?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> what is the specific function your working dogs are bred for Don? aside from sitting in front of a store, or doing therapy work...as you stated some of your best working dog pups have done?


Joby...WTF do you not comprehend anything...Dona has said over and over his dogs are bred to HUNT! WTF pay atttention dude and stop waxing your eyebrows it is affecting your BHU!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have seen all the stuff on google Joby. Started by the guy that was here on the WDF, and the same one that told you all the pictures I have were years old film shots and grainy.( Even though I have been using digital since it came out) I don't worry about that kind of shit Joby. It happens to a lot of people. Seem when your nobody, nobody cares to take the time to write shit like that. Oh, and I may have stepped on a few toes here and there because I don't mince words to much. By the way, got Bill Wanke( that is his real name by the way) removed from a bunch of boards.....so he don't like me much. LOL I have only read anything negative from one person that actually has one of my dogs. The rest have never seen them. Not the first time the link has been posted either son. Barriano beat you to it. LOL Yes, I have raised a lot of dogs....one heck of a lot more than 17 litters, which makes me far more qualified to know what to expect pof a pup than most. Also why I have 12 gen of pretty homogenous dogs. (Do you understand the word homogenous?). Possibly that is why I can tell a good dog just by watching them and most can't. Vastly more experience maybe. Naw, I have been able to tell the gooduns for years. LOL


yes I agree that is alot of time and many generations of inbreeding breeding...much more than most breeders have. Perhaps that is why you can tell which dogs are gonna be the best, but again, the best at WHAT?

one litter you spoke of, the best one can sit in front of a store...I am sorry to keep harping on that, but those are your words..

how many dogs out of your litters go to hunters on average, how many dogs on average, from your litters are "working dogs"? since you like to prattle on about how sport dogs are not working dogs and such, what do your working dogs do? in your own words you do not sell many dogs to hunters.

Yes I know what homogeneous means.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Joby...WTF do you not comprehend anything...Dona has said over and over his dogs are bred to HUNT! WTF pay atttention dude and stop waxing your eyebrows it is affecting your BHU!


I thread them...not wax... 

waxing is for the back hair, and the hair that would hang out of my collar, even if it was buttoned all the way up....


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Yes I know what homogeneous means.


Peter "Metro" Cavallaro and the Irish pub guy?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Peter "Metro" Cavallaro and the Irish pub guy?


no...that is homozygous...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> yes I agree that is alot of time and many generations of inbreeding breeding...much more than most breeders have. Perhaps that is why you can tell which dogs are gonna be the best, but again, the best at WHAT?
> 
> one litter you spoke of, the best one can sit in front of a store...I am sorry to keep harping on that, but those are your words..
> 
> ...


The best in that litter at anything wanted. Tell me, what have you got in any working, or perceived working, dog venue without confidence? A dog that won't stand it's ground in front of a hog, a dog that has to be conditioned to each new helper, a dog that has to be conditioned to each new training ground, a dog that has to be conditioned by winning every scenario because it might cave in. That is what you you will get when you start testing and pick the one that is easyest to train.

As far as how many do I sell to hunters? It hasn't anhything to do with the topic, but not as many as I would like. Hunters won't pay the price when the dog may get killed first time out. But, let's not make it a single function since that is what is sticking in everyones craw. I have picked the dogs for people that have titled them in every level of obedience, the one that started bitework and went on to being a service dog for the blind, many other sevice dogs for the handicapped, dogs used in schools to work with the handicapped.....just all kinds of different venues. As far as hunters also, I have had probably 10 calls from hunters in the last few days. Unfortunately, I have to tell them I am not comfortable selling them a dog out of the new cross yet. Just can't quarantee something I am not sure about. Lot of questions such as nose, grit, heart( I am not sure of the new terminology used to describe these attributes today, sorry). Without maximum confidence you got nadda in a working dog. If the most confident dog in the litter seems to be missing something, your better off finding another litter because that one, maybe two dog(in most litters today) will still be the best dog. If you don't like something about him, don't look for second best because that is what you will get. Joby, It is a lot like taking a dog out hunting and trying to tell him his job. One day, the smart hunter realises he is using the dog because the dog is better at the job of finding than he is. That is when they finally let the dog do it's job. Same thing with pups. It isn't a crap shoot. If the best, most confident pup isn't good enough, WHY EVEN LOOK AT THE REST in the litter. It isn't really a hard concept to grasp......obviously it is.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Tell me, what have you got in any working, or perceived working, dog venue without confidence?" _

But I'm not reading that Joby is saying "without confidence."


_"If the best, most confident pup isn't good enough, WHY EVEN LOOK AT THE REST in the litter. It isn't really a hard concept to grasp......obviously it is."
_
Are you saying that the most confident is always the one to choose, that no other factors are considered?

I guess you are. That's what I'm hearing. But how can that be, that only one trait is considered? 

I'm certainly no breeder, or even puppy-chooser. I just can't wrap my mind around there being only one trait to consider.

Maybe (or probably) I am failing to grasp something.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Shit! Sorry, I forgot how popular confidence building is today. Buy a third string dog so you can spend forever building confidence it will never have.

You know, y'all can disagree all you want, but, next time the newbies and the experts alike, that have read this thread, are out looking to buy a pup.....you breeders that say you can't tell what your own pups bring to the table better have it figured out because the buyers will be thinking about this. :wink:


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So after the most confident one, what are the rest of them? Culls?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Tell me, what have you got in any working, or perceived working, dog venue without confidence?" _
> 
> But I'm not reading that Joby is saying "without confidence."
> 
> ...


I guess it is a harder concept to grasp than I thought Connie. In a working dog, we'll include bite sports, tell me what you have without confidence?. I used to pick for nose....like all the other hunters, yadda yadda yadda(Seems we all have to start somewhere), after a while I realised that all those barnstormers I was passing by were by far, better dogs overall. They got the job done better, they hunted with be better.....they did pretty much everything better. I haven't judged them on anything else for years. AND lo and behold, they started being very good at multitasking. Confidence is balance....pure and simple. How many unconfident, balanced dogs do you see? Zero!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> So after the most confident one, what are the rest of them? Culls?


Stupid question Leslie. You hide the best and let everyone test the rest. They are sure to find some redeeming quality. Whatever is left are pets.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So one good dog per litter and the rest are crap? So much for breeding a litter of good quality dogs if the best you can hope for is only one that makes the cut. 

I don't get why you asked your question. Not surprisingly, few breeders have weighed in on it, though it might have been an interesting discussion about what makes a puppy stand out in a litter. But given that you have decided that the only valid answer is the criteria by which you determine the outstanding puppy, it seems to have gone nowhere. 

Outstanding, to me, is pretty subjective, but you seem to have a handle on it for yourself.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I guess it is a harder concept to grasp than I thought Connie. In a working dog, we'll include bite sports, tell me what you have without confidence?. I used to pick for nose....like all the other hunters, yadda yadda yadda(Seems we all have to start somewhere), after a while I realised that all those barnstormers I was passing by were by far, better dogs overall. They got the job done better, they hunted with be better.....they did pretty much everything better. I haven't judged them on anything else for years. AND lo and behold, they started being very good at multitasking. Confidence is balance....pure and simple. How many unconfident, balanced dogs do you see? Zero!


But let's pretend confidence is measurable in exact increments. 

There is no other factor that would be considered if, say, #2 was 1/100th less confident than #1? Very very confident, a shining star of confidence, but a tiny bit less so than #1. 

And #2 in confidence is by far #1 in (since you mentioned it) "nose."

Still, do you without hesitation choose the one who is the tiniest bit more confident?

BTW, I'm not picking on you or picking apart anything just to argue. I guess it just seems to me that there is some weighing, some balancing, going on in all close choices, when the item of choice is as complex as a living individual.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_I guess it is a harder concept to grasp than I thought Connie. _

Don't go by me. :lol: I really am a complete un-expert in this topic. I'm just trying to follow everyone.


_
How many unconfident, balanced dogs do you see? Zero!_

But if we look at what I said above .... that #2 (the one who is 1/100th less confident than #1) is by no means unconfident. In fact, he is superbly confident! He is just not quite #1 in confidence. And he has that "nose" besides ....


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I pick the one with cutest eyes.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I pick the one with cutest eyes.


Well, that goes without saying. We're talking about before eye cuteness is fully developed. Eye cuteness lags behind confidence (in being perceivable) by at least 4 weeks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _
> How many unconfident, balanced dogs do you see? Zero!_
> 
> But look at what I said above. That #2 (the one who is 1/100th less confident than #1) is by no means unconfident. In fact, he is superbly confident! He is just not quite #1 in confidence. And he has that "nose" besides ....



I do understand that 1/100th is silly. :lol: But you know I mean "by the tiniest increment you can perceive."


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Pfft, you are not trained on the early indicators of eye cuteness utilising ultrasound techniques and the 10 point C scale.





Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, that goes without saying. We're talking about before eye cuteness is fully developed. Eye cuteness lags behind confidence (in being perceivable) by at least 4 weeks.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I love the idea of picking on confidence, I really do.

Don, do you ever find that the dog that is the most confident with the other dogs, is not the most confident of the litter with human strangers lets say?

Or the pup from the litter that is most confident around new noises, may not be the one that is most confident on weird surfaces (I dunno, like high bridges over a creek, or walking across a tarp for the first time)...and so on ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie, Of course there can be more than one super confident dog. No way am I saying the others are all shitters....just not the best choice if anyone is looking for a dog to train. Keep in mjind, even in the best breedings, there is the same full scale from the best to the worst. Even in the best of breeding there will be an average. Doesn't mean it is a worthles dog because the average pup may be far better than the best in another less well bred litter. The breeder should know which has the edge even with slight differences . If he doesn't, nobody knows. In the case I described withy the dog the trainer picked versus the one I picked, I had trouble knowing. Hois pick was quite a bit bigger than my pick, but, when they were 5 weeks old the smaller one was running towards me and the bigger one jumped him. My pick came from underneath and settled it in a flash and went on about his business leaving the bigger one standing there wondering what just happened. Had the small one stayed there until the bigger regained his composure, there may have been a real fight. Remember, there wasn't much difference in the swimming either. Most people would never be able to tell there was a difference. They were that close and the breeder should be able to see it.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

The only thing I can say about this is that if someone told me that he could pick the absolute best pup of the litter at four weeks, or the futurity champion cutting horse as a weanling, it would be an established fact that I was dealing with someone who has a problem with the truth. I don't have to be a dog breeder to know bullshit when I smell it. I'm an old farm boy, don't pee on my head and tell me it 's raining, I know the difference.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I love the idea of picking on confidence, I really do.
> 
> Don, do you ever find that the dog that is the most confident with the other dogs, is not the most confident of the litter with human strangers lets say?
> 
> Or the pup from the litter that is most confident around new noises, may not be the one that is most confident on weird surfaces (I dunno, like high bridges over a creek, or walking across a tarp for the first time)...and so on ?


Jennifer, Nothing is totally iron clad. A lot depends on the quality of the litter overall. You hear about those that say don't let your dog play with other dogs because they will pack bond? I have yet to see a confident dog that will pick the pack over the person. The ones that packbond lack confidence. 

Overall, many things will throw a young pup, but, they are on an accelerated learning curve. Many people will confuse a bit of caution as fear. It is the wrong thing to do absolutely. Watch the recovery time, it tells you almost everthing. If it actual fear with the first encounter you may have to help the pup work through it, or he will work through it by watching the other pups. If the dog is just cautious it may put him off, but it is the recovery time that will tell everything. Also, the way pups are raised today, much of this is a moot point because the dogs have been handled so much before you can actually see some of this that it is masked......so the breeder will have to be even more attentive to what is taking place. Regardless, the best picks should make themselves pretty obvious.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jennifer, Nothing is totally iron clad. A lot depends on the quality of the litter overall. You hear about those that say don't let your dog play with other dogs because they will pack bond? I have yet to see a confident dog that will pick the pack over the person. The ones that packbond lack confidence.
> 
> Overall, many things will throw a young pup, but, they are on an accelerated learning curve. Many people will confuse a bit of caution as fear. It is the wrong thing to do absolutely. Watch the recovery time, it tells you almost everthing. If it actual fear with the first encounter you may have to help the pup work through it, or he will work through it by watching the other pups. If the dog is just cautious it may put him off, but it is the recovery time that will tell everything. Also, the way pups are raised today, much of this is a moot point because the dogs have been handled so much before you can actually see some of this that it is masked......so the breeder will have to be even more attentive to what is taking place. Regardless, the best picks should make themselves pretty obvious.


 
Now I do agree with you on the caution, recovery Idea. I am not worried if a pup shows caution but acclimates to the stimulus quickly.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't recollect anyone suggesting picking a champion anything....just the best dog of a litter. James already tried that ploy Jim. And I am just an old ******* . Jim, I think you already peed on your hand....just didn't know it.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

You must be amazing, I often go to the NCHA futurity sale, last year the top 10 two year olds who were the best bred in the world averaged a sale price of $80000. They had about eight months of training with the best trainers in the world. One of these horses was a finalist in the futurity. And you try to tell me you can pick a pup at a month old? Go BS someone else, I'm not buying that one! If I (or anyone else) could go there and guarantee one to make the finals it wouldn't be a problem to get someone to pay $300,000 for it, hell Don could be a millionaire in no time. Don't give me that 'dogs are different' an athlete is an athlete, dog, human, or equine, takes athletic ability plus mental attitude, and you nor anyone else can pick it at that age. Sure you can pick out one that may be better, and one that is crap, anyone can do that, but that's not your claim. Go BS someone else. I'm not playing


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

But you are playing....you posted.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

No more here Peter. By the way, I like your dog in the video. He's a pretty ballsy, relatively novice dog!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks, way I read him, whatever he lacks it aint balls for the work.

Was the least confident pup in litter with the cutest eyes. 

Never tested for tyre drive tho.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So if a breeder can't make any estimate on the pup's genetic ability, what are you paying for in working dogs? Is this where the idea of puppies are crap shoots came from. How can you place a young puppy in a working home? For $1000--$3000, you have no idea of its potential?


Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

The breeder who I am thinking about getting my next dog from generally hangs on to them for about 4 months before he lets them go, He says he does that to give him a good chance to pick the dogs he wants to keep to make sure he has a good chance of continually improving his dogs and it also gives him the best chance of matching dogs with prospective buyers.

Some people may not like that, but I do as I consider him one of the best breeders of working sheepdogs in Australia and other farmers I know have been very happy with their dogs.

On another note, my parents once picked a cattle dog pup for me (as a pet dog). She was the pup at the top of the puppy A frame lording it over the rest, the pup that confidently approached them and looked them in the eyes and kept engaging with them, She turned out to be the only real natural protector I have ever owned, and that was her job, travelling with me on lonely back roads and she was a fab dog.


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

I will use a example I just expierenced with an individual that purchased a puppy from me recently, I knew this guy prior and knew that he has maybe fooled with dogs in the military according to him , the whole litter appeared very solid in the nerves and most had good drives for objects, the litter was let out multiple times a day to play and meet anyone who was crazy enough to try and pet them, which I will set most of my friends up for this I admit. Anyway I get a call the other day, with him saying the dog(11 weeks) was a coward , because it ran from a stranger. I asked what have you been doing for the last three weeks with her, he states that raising a pp dog requires that no one see or pet the dog but him and his wife, I try and reason with him, but this is how he does . Not saying he got a superstar of a puppy, but the puppy didnot know a stranger when it left my home.
I tried to buying the puppy back and stated if I had known his "training methods",
I would not have sold a solid puppy for you to turn into a weirdo .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That is a fact Charles. The breeder just does not have total control over how dogs turn out because there are just one heck of a lot of pseudo experts out there. Here is one of my favorites I hear on here often........."You just can't tell me how a pup is going to turn out because there are just so many enviromental factors involved.blah, blah, blah" I got to shake my head when the experts are talking because it is true in part, but, the more confident the dog, the better he will always handle the environment better, but, if anyone that picks a piece of shit, will always have a piece of shit regardless of the environment. No dog will teach ypou more about training than a really weak one. LMAO.. Hey, that is fine if you are making a living as a trainer and training dogs walking in the door with any customer.....but your own working dog??? Working a weak dog will teach you squat about working a confident solid dog...that is a fact!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I dont think anyone has implied that the would select a puppy that is not confident, or that confidence is not ranked at or near the top of the list of things to look at in a litter...

I even think that most people will pick the most confident puppy, if everything else is satisfactory that they see when looking at the pups, me included, unless there is some other glaring defect or issue with the puppy.

To say that the most confident puppy will turn out to be the best adult dog, for the work they will be doing is insane though. There are just too many other factors.

Like as mentioned before, all the other traits that make up the dog, besides confidence. And then you have what the actual job will be, and how the dog is trained for that job.

Most knowledgeable people select a pup that shows them what they want to see based on their own criteria, from experience (if they have it), they pick the pups that shows them what they want to see, that they feel will perform the best when it has gone through their training program and is an adult dog, doing its job, whatever that is....

Like Jim D., he picks pups that show a natural attraction to human remains, because he trains HRD, and for him, that is a trait he lends importance to.

Some people want a puppy that will retrieve things naturally and bring them back to them, and that is important to them and their training styles.

Some people want a puppy that shows possession, some want puppies that dont show much possession.

Some wand dominance, some dont.

And the list goes on and on.

Confidence is of great importance, for me (and probably most people) it is a make or break thing, if I see lack of confidence in any pups in the litter, that is a huge red flag. There has to be a level of confidence that shows. And aside from that as stated, if the dog does not show ULTRA confidence, reactions and recovery are of utmost importance.

To say that the most confident pup in the litter will be the best at the job, just doesnt make sense in reality. It depends on what the job is. 

Don in all seriousness, since you now have opened it up to include ALL functions, ANY function...which is complete 180, that brings up another question I have about all this which is still nutty in my opinion.

It is great that you have produced and picked out puppies for people, that have been successful at what the people wanted to do with them, that is a good thing, and is commendable, it shows you can pick a pup that should suit the persons needs, and it sounds like you are (from your account) good at doing that, but that does not even have any relevance to what you are saying here..

lets look at the facts. You talk about picking dogs to do multiple jobs, and have given some examples, of the successes.

Therapy Dog
Assistance Dog
Hunting Dog
Obedience Dog etc .etc.

That is great, glad everyone was happy with the dogs you picked for them and were successful.

The truth is all of those jobs may be better suited for different types of dogs than others, regardless if they were the most confident puppy in the litter or not. Each job requires different traits, and yes, ALL OF THEM REQUIRE CONFIDENCE, but also other things.

The best assistance dog from the litter, might not be the best hunter.

The best hunter certainly most likely would not make the best dog for a blind person to use for a guidance dog.

The best dog for bitework, might not make the best dog to do therapy work.

The best tracking dog, is not gonna make the best assistance dog.



In all reality Don, since you first said that today, working dogs are purpose bred for a function, and now changed it to producing dogs for a multitude of functions, that require different traits (other than confidence) that just adds to the fact, that one cannot say that the dog will be the best dog for whatever...if that was the case, you should be able to pick the most confident pup out of your new male outcross litters, and say which one would make the best hunting dog, and it should succeed as well. 

The crux of the subject is this, however.

Unless you have sold entire litters of puppies to do OB work, sold entire litters of puppies that do therapy work, sold entire litters to hunters, sold entire litters to obedience people, how can you say that the pup that YOU picked out, was the best pup for that job? You cannot possibly know this. It may be what you think and believe, but there is no possible way to be sure about it, as you seem to be. The truth is you cannot say if the new cross will make good hunting dogs, and you wouldnt be able to tell which was the best hunter, based on picking the most cofident unless you hunted with every dog in the litter. With the way that genetics work, the ULTRA confident pup in that litter, just might not have inherited the other traits that would make a great hunting dog, he might not have inherited enough nose, grit, or heart or whatever, but there very well might be a pup that is NOT the ULTRA confident pup in the litter, that did inherit enough nose, grit, heart or whatever, because that is as important as confidence. The most confident dog that has no nose, does not a good hunter make....

Just something to chew on a little for ya.

In all reality, the jobs you are talking about, while they are working jobs, and are important, noble jobs, from what you have named aside from hunting, do not require the working traits that come from purpose bred working dogs, or working lines at all. AKC show lines, mutts from the pound, all produce great therapy, guide and assitance, as well as Obedience dogs. And most people that select dogs for those jobs are not looking for the complete package of strong working traits that will come from strong purpose bred working breedings, because some of those traits will be a detriment to performing that job.

To be a good therapy dog, a dog needs to enjoy being around people, confident in his surroundings, under control and affectionate. Thats it, I would venture to say that most therapy dogs are not selected from working dog lines, and if they are, many of them are probably washouts from whatever they were actually intended to be bred for. 

And unless the working lines were purpose bred to produce therapy dogs, who can say...I would bet that if the most confident pup in the litter was the best candidate for police work, he might not be the best pick to do therapy work. The best tracking bloodhound, is not gonna make the best guide dog for the blind....etc. etc. Because while every job requires confidence, they also have requirements, other than confidence.

You are just stuck on the pup being the most confident, and actually saying that pup will be the best for anything, and that is just not true...



"The Seed" said:


> The best in that litter at anything wanted. Tell me, what have you got in any working, or perceived working, dog venue without confidence? A dog that won't stand it's ground in front of a hog, a dog that has to be conditioned to each new helper, a dog that has to be conditioned to each new training ground, a dog that has to be conditioned by winning every scenario because it might cave in. That is what you you will get when you start testing and pick the one that is easyest to train.





Don Turnipseed said:


> That is a fact Charles. The breeder just does not have total control over how dogs turn out because there are just one heck of a lot of pseudo experts out there. Here is one of my favorites I hear on here often........."You just can't tell me how a pup is going to turn out because there are just so many enviromental factors involved.blah, blah, blah" I got to shake my head when the experts are talking because it is true in part, but, the more confident the dog, the better he will always handle the environment better, but, if anyone that picks a piece of shit, will always have a piece of shit regardless of the environment. No dog will teach ypou more about training than a really weak one. LMAO.. Hey, that is fine if you are making a living as a trainer and training dogs walking in the door with any customer.....but your own working dog??? Working a weak dog will teach you squat about working a confident solid dog...that is a fact!


Without confidence you have nothing, I agree. If you have a dog that wont stand his ground, has to be conditioned to new helpers, conditioned to every scenario so it wont cave...you have a shitty unconfident dog, period, even if he was the most confident in the litter, he is shitty.

Again NO ONE HERE IS SAYING THAT AN UNCONFIDENT DOG IS BETTER THAN A CONFIDENT DOG, and no one is saying they would pick an unconfident dog, we are just saying the MOST confident dog, might not be the best dog for the job.

To say that picking a dog in the litter that will be easiest to train in a training program, and maybe not picking what you say is the MOST confident dog, that you will end up with a dog that falls apart with new helpers or surroundings, is crazy. Any dog that does that is a shitty working dog period, and picking the most confident pup out of that litter, will still lead you down the same path, because that is a glaring genetic issue most likely. Confidence is a given, it is at the top of most peoples list, but the puppy being the most confident, just may not end up being the best for the job, due to other factors. If the most confident dog in the litter is difficult to train for his job, how can one say he was the best? Dogs that are easier to train for the job will often perform better.

What does any of this have to do with therapy, and assistance dogs anyhow. Even you should admit the best hunting dog in a litter is not gonna necessarily make the best therapy or assitance dog, even if he is the most confident...if the blind person wants to visit a farm, that is crawling with small animals, and wants to hold a rabbit and pet it, the most confident best hunting pup in the litter from hunting stock, is not gonna be the best for the job.

*I repeat, again, unless you are selling entire litters to do ONE specific job, it is impossible for you to say the ones you picked, based on confidence, were the best pup for the job, when you only sell ONE puppy for that purpose, out of a litter, you can say it was a dog that was good for the job, if you said he was the best, that is only a guess...*


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oh Jim, while your trying to look credible still, your quickly loosing ground. Your sitting there saying a breeder can't pick the best pup out of a litter. That is fine, I bet when a mare foals, you can't even pick the best one......


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

This was my third litter in about three years. I have accepted the fact that no matter what, there will always be some people that are never happy, and of course the wierdos of the world that are unrealistic and believe their methods are the gospel. I breed my own dogs because I got tired of buying dogs that didnt work out for me, now I have no body to blame but myself if I end up not happy in the end. Selling a puppy does help foot the bill on the dogs you keep, I can be honest here, but sometimes I feel it's not worth the hassle.
I believe in giving a puppy the best shot at success possible, I do all I can and them some, to send out a solid nerved puppy, of course the puppy has to be solid genetically from the beginning, IMO , it does not take a rocket scientist to see a confident, free, outgoing puppy, that is into anything and everything, watching his reactions to different events that might unfold around him, nor do in I believe it take a rocket scientist to see the opposite. I've had help of course learning things you like to see and even more important , things you don't . Mike Sutttle could have charged me for all the conversations and brain picking I have did with him over the years, but he has put up with me. I appreciate it


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