# The "out" command in puppyhood



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I already have my opinion on it, but how import do some of you place the "out" command with puppies doing bite work?

IMO, you are teaching a motor skill and a verbal directive. Why would you want or require the puppy to release the thing it has been in a FIGHT to get? I let them enjoy the moment and when they release the tug, I will then say, "Out!." 

This is one of the building blocks to bite work as I see it taught...nothing different than what many of you do.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

We do it similar in that we say the out command after the puppy releases. However we try to associate the out with the puppy becoming immediately active by barking and thus signaling a new round of play.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't have a problem teaching the out to a puppy. It's all markers and reward based so the out is just another behavior that the pup knows it will be rewarded for doing.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don't believe that teaching a puppy to out will have any influence on his willingness to bite. I didn't reward them personally - the reward was being able to bite again.

My dogs always outed cleanly (apart from one trial where we had had an end of year party at the club and the trial was next day right up in the mountains). I remember standing there dumbfounded and thinking "what should I be doing next?" The dog needed a second command to out - he wasn't at the party!

The "out" with my older GSD I used and use for all sorts of situations - when he packed the younger GSD or once when he packed another dog. Also when he was obsessively biting in his coat, it worked. For him, "out" is a jaw release.

The younger GSD outed slowly at first but then I played less tug and out and more “Agility” exercises with him as he was far more athletic at 8 weeks than his older colleague. It might have been his more independent and tenacious nature of course.

Whatever, never be afraid to give clear and maybe harsh commands to a pup. Never think he might not become the “Biter of the year” because you forced him to out.

I would really welcome comments to this posting of mine. Only so can we work out the issues regarding the "out".

I must admit I am convinced of what I have written but would welcome other ideas. Only so, can the thread exist.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I don't have a problem teaching the out to a puppy. It's all markers and reward based so the out is just another behavior that the pup knows it will be rewarded for doing.


We spend a lot of time building drive and possession for toys, sleeves, etc. but also start shaping the out command at a young age. We teach the puppies when the first object goes dead, a second one comes alive. When they are releasing consistently to pursue the second object, we start timing the out command so it happens immediately before they drop the first object.

I've also starting shaping the out command with food for the more possessive puppies who want to keep their first toy while pursuing the second or who just don't care about the second because they're happy with what they have. Most young puppies with decent food drive will eventually drop what they have to eat the treat they smell ...it takes persistence sometimes and doesn't work as well as the puppies get older and more possessive, but I think building the positive association with the out command from a young age is helpful.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Each puzzle has an important piece, for dog training, I see the "out" command as just another step towards success.

Since I'm NOT in favor of choke or lift offs, I think conflict free commands speed the way towards overall success for the venue you train.

The 8 month old GSD puppy I'm working is doing the out command and will quickly rebite and own the puppy sleeve. I have a puppy that skipped the rag work and tug...and went STRAIGHT TO JAIL! :twisted:


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## Ken Seminatore (Apr 20, 2011)

I don't do "outs" yet with puppies. Let the puppy enjoy the game with the decoy. Slight stick work, touching the puppy, may be the decoy, with the proper size tug, will go to ground, then he gives the tug to the puppie, and the handler "calls" the dog. Later, after the puppie is going down on the long line, and the puppie grasps the tug, the decoy still gives it up to the puppy, thats the reward. It is a step by step process. THEN, I intoduce the "out" by me showing the puppy with the small tug as his "out" reward.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ariel said

"I think building the positive association with the out command from a young age is helpful."



I think building a positive association with ANY command from a young age is helpful. The need for later correction will be at a much lower level if the dog understands that reward, be it tug, food or another bite can result.
For many dogs that bite reward can be as stimulating as anything else. Even a bite crazy dog can learn to understand this.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I think "out" should mean "guard" however you want guard to be in your sport. This way it is a "to do" cue instead of a let go command and I find I can avoid the pressure normally associated with it as the dog gets older. As soon as my pups are biting good and with full grips, I introduce the concept of the out. The reward is to bite and fight again.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

I think the 'out' command should be included in basic obedience along with 'yuck'. 'out' for something that is allowed in your mouth but now I want it (sleeve, toy, tug, etc) and 'yuck' for things that are not allowed to be there (rocks, poop, nails, etc). To teach the 'out' command I do the trade at first. They have a toy, I have a toy, I say out, they spit it out and get the other toy in my hand AND a new game of tug begins (I mark it with a verbal marker). As they get older I increase the time between the action and the reward and ask for more vocalization. The "yuck" command is a simple marker. They spit it out, I mark it, they get a tasty noms. "yuck" means high value food treat, "out" means more fun to follow.

Never had an issue with the dog being possessive with ME.... with a decoy? They are a little possessive


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Like the rest of you, I too taught the out at a young age. I started using the command immediately when I brought the boy home at 7 weeks. I used the term to mean "spit it out". As he got a little older, we made a game of trade out of it. 

His outs are good. I've also been taught to use "out" as a turn off command when he's a little too aggressive at the door. 

It works for us.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Shade Whitesel said:


> *I think "out" should mean "guard" *however you want guard to be in your sport. This way it is a "to do" cue instead of a let go command and I find I can avoid the pressure normally associated with it as the dog gets older. As soon as my pups are biting good and with full grips, I introduce the concept of the out. The reward is to bite and fight again.


I like this idea.

I train out as "cease all activity and be still until your next command" rather than 'let it go' not saying this is better.
Seeing as I will be participating in sport now I suppose this above quoted method is useful?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Matt Vandart said:


> I like this idea.
> 
> I train out as "cease all activity and be still until your next command" rather than 'let it go' not saying this is better.
> Seeing as I will be participating in sport now I suppose this above quoted method is useful?


So if the dog ceases all activity, does it return to the handler? For what sport are you training?

"That'll do" is used in herding, some use "free" for OB. To my way of thinking, the OUT is only used for bite work and then the dog is to guard the bad guy/decoy/helper...=;


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> I like this idea.
> 
> I train out as "cease all activity and be still until your next command" rather than 'let it go' not saying this is better.
> Seeing as I will be participating in sport now I suppose this above quoted method is useful?


I went to a Shade seminar and she showed me this. My dog outed like crap.... Now he's bomb proof. As with any training it wasn't a completely direct path from the crappy out, to the out/guard. But in the end... It's like the ushi finger hold from kung fu panda....I figured it out.....Skidoosh.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So if the dog ceases all activity, does it return to the handler? For what sport are you training?
> 
> "That'll do" is used in herding, some use "free" for OB. To my way of thinking, the OUT is only used for bite work and then the dog is to guard the bad guy/decoy/helper...=;


Schutzhund.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Cease all activity and trading sleeves does not work in our system. It seems to me this _might _work if you had a silent guard (which I think looks like crap for most dogs). The out for us is the signal to start the bark and hold/guarding exercise. This is taught from a pup. This lays the foundation for good guarding later.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Shade Whitesel said:


> I think "out" should mean "guard" however you want guard to be in your sport. This way it is a "to do" cue instead of a let go command and I find I can avoid the pressure normally associated with it as the dog gets older. As soon as my pups are biting good and with full grips, I introduce the concept of the out. The reward is to bite and fight again.


 
This sums up most behaviors taught a dog with any desire to have it show drive. And it's easier. 

Teach the dog what to do, vs what not to do. It is a state of mind in the trainer when you think "I want a silent or barking guard, vs. I want the dog to stop biting."

Stimulus = Response = Reward IE "verbal out" = the dog outing (and sitting in the end) = rebite. The way I have been taught the progression is a quick reward for the out, though, which means we are actually telling the dog to stop something and then it will start more vigorously. We just extend the out into a sit or barking guard or between the leg guard, or whatever... 

You can replace the dog outing with dog going into a guard, because that is what the dog is doing. I take a lot of the training I have done and trainers I have been around for granted. This seems like there wouldn't be any other way to teach this well. In retrospect it isn't how I learned it in DoD though. I wonder if they teach it like this now. Once again, how we teach doesn't really matter compared to how the dog learns...

In obedience with pet dogs, even, it's much easier to teach an alternate behavior to a conditioned bad behavior. Teaching a down instead of no jumping. You end up chaining the new to the old (teach a down, then the dog jumps, give him a down and a reward. Soon the dog starts skipping the jumping as a response to whatever stimulus makes him jump, to do a down to get to the reward), the new behavior gets the reward, therefore the old appears extinguished.


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