# No absolutes!



## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I read a post somewhere not long ago that stated \"every dog has to have a foundation in prey\".Im not an expert by any means nor am I a professional trainer but I know as a fact this is not true.
Also, training agility and obedience with treats isnt the only way.Im not trying to argue which is better,just saying there are no absolutes in dog training.
As long as the training isnt abusive and you get the desired results their is nothing wrong with it IMO.
Personally I dont do any prey drive development like most do.Nor do I train with treats or ball rewards.I hardly ever use a tug and never work on a calm full grip.
My dogs still bite,jump,track and do obed.

I did a send away my 15 month old Mal the other day and a guy asked me if I taught him to that with a ball or tug...nope.

Again im not saying this is the best way but there are many ways to do things just as there are many different types of dogs.Just something to think about.

Greg

P.S. I hope this is in the right section.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> I read a post somewhere not long ago that stated \"every dog has to have a foundation in prey\"........Also, training agility and obedience with treats isnt the only way......Again im not saying this is the best way but there are many ways to do things just as there are many different types of dogs.Just something to think about....... Greg....
> P.S. I hope this is in the right section.


Well, I'm answering too many messages right now because they are all interesting, so sorry for being a post hound (hahaha).......

But Greg has such a great point. It does me good to really read and think about all the different viewpoints, because I do tend to start believing that if what I am doing is successful, then it must be \"the\" way to do it!

That \"foundation in prey\" quote --- did it refer to every Sch dog, or what? It sounds so weird........to me, anyway, but I have no special-training experience.

And when I read the other (non-treat) ways to teach \"look at me,\" I got a wakeup!

Thanks, Greg.


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

I couldn't agree more, Greg. There is more than one way to achieve a result, and as you said, as long as the method isn't abusive, what's wrong with it? Some things work better for some people/dogs than others.

On the flip side, however, there must be something to the methods that are favored by the vast majority of trainers, as some are. Experience does count to some degree.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie,
The \"foundation in prey\" statement was directed at ALL protection training as I understood it.I would never mention names but it did get my hackles up.

I guess I should also explain that I used to do prey drive development and train with a ball reward and yes even hotdogs.I did get good results.I even worked on grip development using B. Flinks' methods.It all worked great.
I decided that the best thing for me and my dogs was to go in a different direction.

All I ask is that everyone stay open to all training styles and then decide what is best for your dogs and your individual goals.

Greg


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Connie,
> The \"foundation in prey\" statement was directed at ALL protection training as I understood it.I would never mention names but it did get my hackles up.........All I ask is that everyone stay open to all training styles and then decide what is best for your dogs and your individual goals.....Greg


Wow! A statement so flat-out all-inclusive like that........WOW! I mean, what do I know, but I DO know that \"always,\" \"never,\" and \"every\" generally precede statements that might be best read with skepticism.

Yep, we can't learn if we don't stay open-minded! You're right!

P.S. I like the sheepdog instead of sheep signature.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

The statement was actually a shot at me because I was asking for advice on how to protection train a dog who won't play with strangers; all the \"trainers\" I know around here don't know how to train in anything but \"prey\" (play) and it is FRUSTRATING. :x


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Well,

Not everyone has a \"special\" dog like you Jen. :?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

Special like short bus? :x I'm being serious. You remember exactly what that was about, and don't pretend otherwise. :evil:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yet another reason why I like this forum. You are so right, nothing is written in stone. I think with most dogs, you do a little of this, a little of that. There are more ways than just prey! Frankly, I'm glad that here you can state your opinion without fear of getting shot down with robotic like replies! (unless you say something ridiculously dangerous).


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I had a friend who had a GSD/Mal mix. The dog couldn't possibly care less about a ball or any prey item, at least none that I could see. He was a very stable, balanced family companion and was an excellent PPD dog. 

I think prey is introduced to a pup to get it in drive and to get it to bite and grip. And it's done in such a way to make it fun for the pup. Eventually it translates to biting on a person in a suit and it's still in prey and fun for the dog. It gives the dog a chance to work on its biting while it is still maturing and it's enjoyable for the dog. 

My thought is that if the dog is to become a serious PPD dog then it will need to be put into defense and tested to see if it can handle the pressure. It would seem sensible to me to put gradual pressure and build the dog and, hopefully and eventually, the dog will be able to handle anything. Or, you'll reach a plateau and know the dog's limits. And that's better to learn while training and not when a crackhead is coming through your front door at 3 am. :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

Ah, Patrick, my new best friend! :lol: 

Thank God for people who still have brains of their own, not controlled by others! Caleb is too damn old for that puppy crap anyway. He plays ball like a nut, but only with me. If I want the dog for a potentially serious situation (I don't sic my dog on people for fun, usually), why do I want some unthinking prey monster? I'm not bashing all sport dogs; I'm just saying, why not train in scenarios that might actually happen. I don't need my dog to know how to play tug with a guy in a suit who breaks into my house. 8)


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I also meant to add that I agree with Greg that there is definitely more than one way to train. And we can endorse that idea here because the board owner is not selling a single philosophy on video tapes. Here we can speak the truth, thankfully. 

Anyway, I like the idea of bringing the dog along gradually and not putting the young dog into total defense as was done to my dog when he was less than a year old. But I didn't know any better and I was relying on the \"wisdom\" of a rather hard trainer. I can't necessarily say that it hurt my dog, in fact, it may have helped him. I can't say for sure. It's just that if I had it to do over again I would and I believe he'd still be a good dog and I wouldn't have had to scare the bejeebers  out of him to get him there.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

Greg may start selling DVDs if people keep flattering him :lol: .

Patrick, the same thing happened to Caleb. He was flanked and had a ton of stress put on him earlier on. I think it definitely set him back, but I won't say he's ruined. He's just going to take time and patience...and I am not a doctor. 8)


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg, what's the different direction you went in with regards to drive developement? I'm open to new ideas. Can you be specific,
AL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Although I'm a big believer in prey training now, I've also been around long enough to realize not all dogs have the prey necessary to be trained in that method. I started my dog training with most of the old Koehler methods. They still work, and with some dogs better than other methods. I'd still prefer to find something the dog will work for something besides \"I told you so\". Ther are to many GOOD ways to train a dog. It's all a matter of finding what works for you and the individual dog.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Al,

I dont do any type of dog sports and Im not a professional trainer.I just show the pups/dogs what I want; be it track,bite or obstacle work.I spend alot of time with my dogs. 
Its mostly direction.I direct them to climb,or bite or track.Its pretty easy once they understand what you are asking.You could say I do some prey development with the bitework but thats really not accurate either.I let them bite naturally like they want to instinctively.Their confidence grows over time as does their willingness to work for the handler.
This takes a long time to do it right.Also you have to be careful not to make something so difficult for a pup/dog that it cant succeed.

I would have to say the obstacle work is the most important aspect of this.

One thing that I want to do is get the dog to think before it reacts to a stimulus.

Im not saying this is the right or wrong way its just the way I do it and it works far better for me than the conventional ball,treat and tug methods.

A working dog wants to work for it's handler.I dont feel its beneficial or neccessary to bring a ball or toy into that relationship.

Greg

Greg


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Greg may start selling DVDs if people keep flattering him :lol:


oh dear have we gone commercial already :lol: :lol:


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: :wink: :twisted: 

Whats a DVD? :?


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> :lol: :wink: :twisted:
> 
> Whats a DVD? :?


 :? one of those lil silver frisbee things that if you throw em far enough it makes a great dog toy :lol: :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Okay, this is my opinion only & in no way am I saying it's for everyone, nor am I a professional: Back in the old days, many trainers used forced retrieve (not once the dog had been motivationally trained, but instead of). I think the theory was to instill \"you MUST & FAST every time). The SAFE zone was with dumbell in mouth, then front of handler. Personally, I think force method definetly has it's place, & not just in the retrieve, but it's got to be done right & very carefully. Also now, I think motivational first!


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I think many trainers still use this method.Yes I think it has to be done VERY carefully.I dont like the way I have seen it done but my experience with it is limited.

The word \"forced\" makes me uneasy.I dont think you need to force a dog to do anything unless its an emergency situation.I have heard and seen a little of \"forced\" training bitework and I dont like that either.
Im not into sport so I dont need the flashy fast response on everything.Just because someone doesnt use a reward system doesnt mean the training is \"forced\".

I actually do like Flink's method on the motivational retrieve(for sport)

Greg


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

We learn the retrieve of the little articles on the forced way. Playing/rewarding is with ball or tug, retrieving is with force when they are ready usually not before 18-20 mo. The reason is that almost all are dogs become real working policedogs, and you can´t afford a \"i won´t do it\" on crucial times :wink:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Selena, this is my experience too, even with sport dog! I also agree with the age that you are talking about. When & if the time comes that my dog needs it, I will be going to my breeder for help. It does need to be done right, & by someone who really knows what they are doing! When it is done right, it is very clear to the dog what you want from him/her. We did it with my last dog, & the first time was like a \"light bulb\" moment for him! It never effected his desire to play, he never had a problem with it at all, but he was a very hard dog that could take a correction & come back laughing as if to say \"thats all you got\"!


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I have read or heard KNPV trainers talk about the dog developing what they call \"sense of duty\".Any thoughts?Selena?


Greg


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My GSD is the first dog that I didn't train the retrieve with a force method. I trained for the past 40 yrs with an ear pinch. It was always reliable, but with Thunder, I've done it totally motivationally, with food. He's rock solid, but always had a strong desire to bring things to me. That wouldn't have worked with a few of the terriers I've had. 
I learned the motivation method when I was first training for cadaver work. Hot dogs in one hand. Ahhh....errrrr..training material (in a salt shaker) in the other. He was completely aware of the hot dogs, but wasn't rewarded until he sniffed, and eventually did a down and bark in front of the salt shaker. With his dumbell, it was the same process. We progressed from a nose touch for a reward, up to a take and hold. He would always retrieve anything I threw, but that was out of prey (movement of the object). He needed to be taught to \"take it\" on command. Works the same for drug work, explosives, ANY scent you want to train for. The only thing different is what alert you want. Ya sure don't want an aggressive alert on explosives.  :wink:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob, is your current GSD fast on the retrieve, both on the flat & over hurdle & wall, with no dumbell mouthing?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thunder is like a rocket in everything he does on the field. We put NO stress on our dogs in obedience. Everything is a game. He was originally a little mouthy on the field, but I think that was only because he's in such high drive out there. I refused to take it from him as long as he was mouthing. as soon as he calmed his grip, He got his reward (tug toy). Everything we do is motivational. Reward correct behaviour, ignore bad behaviour. It really works, but believe me! This is my first EVER totally motivational dog. I was a really heavy handed Ahole when I competed in AKC 20-25 yrs ago. Course I had terriers. I think they enjoyed getting their a$$ kicked. JKN of course! :wink:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob, does your GSD come by his speed naturally? If so, have you seen dogs who were perhaps not so quick \"speed up\" using your motivational method? The reason I'm asking, is of course, I would much rather train motivationaly. Thanks in advance for your advise.!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> I have read or heard KNPV trainers talk about the dog developing what they call \"sense of duty\".Any thoughts?Selena?
> 
> 
> Greg


Dont know exactly what is meant here?


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Susan, my mal has really super speed with retrieving on the flat and over hurdle and the wall, only problem was her mouthing on the dumbell when she came back all worked up due to the speed. From really fast to the sit was to much of a change. I taught her the fast retrieve by throwing the dumbell and as soon as she picked it up and turned to me, I run like an idiot away from her. She would come chasing after me and we would then play with it as in tug and hold. Once the speed was in, I would calm her down by running my finger and hand over her nose and head gently while she had the dumbell in her mouth at the sit. I worked on one, then the other then combined them. She does it great!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Okay, this sounds like a good way to not only cure dumbell mouthing, but to speed up a slow dog (yes, I know, you dutchie & mal people have no idea what \"slow\" means :roll: ). So this sounds like a really good method , & I will def try this before resorting to forced retrieve. I sure love this forum!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan, yes! Natural speed. We have a number of big dogs on the club. Rott's Pressas, ABs. They all have a slower recall, but each has been brought to its max speed by building their enthusiasm. This is one of the reasons I feel that motivational traing has an advantage over compulsion. Yes! You can make a dog faster with an e-collar, but why not make the dog want to LOVE retrieving.
A calm mouth, IMHO, is either genetic or created. Even a dog with a geneticly calm grip can get mouthy from worrying about loosing the toy?dumbell. I don't take the dumbell untill the dog is holding it calm. This goes back to initial teaching the dog that I wont always take his toy away when he brings it. The Flinks \"Training Drive Focus and Grip\" video goes into this in detail. 
When I do take it away, it's ONLY when the dog is calm. I also use the Flinks \"Motivational Retrieve\" tape idea of never taking the dumbell in training, with the same method on the field. When the dog is holding it, I tap/rub/slightly tug the dumbell from the take position, but always take it by reaching under his chin, and taking it between my fingers. It's hard to describe, but the dog learns that my touching the dumbell, doesn't mean it's going to be taken away. That starts LOTS of dog mouthing. 
Hope my rambling makes sense.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For motivational training, it's hard to beat the Susan Barwig book \"Purely Positive\". Her \"trade for food\" method was what I used with Thunder.


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