# Drives



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have seen and heard much on the subject of K-9 drives, what they are and how they occur. There are some who will tell you K-9 drives are driven by the decoy or created by the handler or a breeder. It matters little that your dog is a sport, service, or personal protection animal. The same basic drive is the foundation for your dog. I see these drives as belonging to mainly one of three groups: *prey, defense,* and* fight.* 

*Prey and defense are the two foremost drives.*

*Prey drive* is the dog's willingnes to chase an item, decoy, rabbit, car, or anything that moves. It is also a non-pressure drive. The animal has little chance of being hurt. Beagles chase rabbits, rabbits run away. Working dogs chase the decoy or the moving sleeve, get the bite and are happy campers!

*Defense drive* is the dog's willingness to fight or to stand its ground. There is pressure in this venue and some form of physical or pack leadership outcome will take place. Dominance can come in the form of verbal, raised hair, eyes fixed, lips pulled back, or increased body presence. This can be physical and mental.

*Fight drive* is the dog's willingness to spar, to fight, to mix it up. It involves the full body (mind, spirit, body) it is the way of a warrior. If a dog is very strong in the defense drive it will also have a strong fight drive. Alpha dogs have this drive.

*Avoidance* is found with weak nerve dogs. They fear almost anything. Avoidance can be a physical or mental thing. If the dog can physically move away, it will. If it can turn its back and "tune you out" it will. I have tested PPDs that turned their back, would pee on a post, roll over, crawl between the handlers legs, and go completely into another "zone" for protection from the decoy.

Some folks would like the novice to think that basic K-9 drives are created. This is a half truth. They are created, it's called *GENETICS*! Dogs that chase things and carry things are in a prey mode. Dogs whose drive is to become physical are showing defensive drives. Again, this is genetic and nothing else. Now, basic drives can also be shaped through environmental and training influences. The support is easy.

A Lab is by nature a prey drive animal; they carry things in their mouth and hunt for things downed in the field. This drive is shaped through training. Labs can do blind retrieves and doubles, they can be trained to work in water and to quarter a field like a spaniel. Many sport dogs have higher prey drives, many police or security dogs are stronger in defense. Pit Bull terriers are trained to fight and as a result you see what is called a fight drive. If a dog gets a hard verbal correction, it can go into avoidance to the handler, it is removing itself from an area of conflict. 

I am posting this based on my opinion and educational background with respect to K9 training. For those who would try and pick it apart, it is not a 100% position and can't be. There are always execptions to the rule. For folks who are new to this forum, this information may be useful in helping you understand the type of dog that you are dealing with and the genetic drive that you are seeing.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I see avoidance as a negative part of defense. Defense to me is always a choice between fight or flight.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have also had it in prey, "I don't want to do it, so there." Back turned and no effort. This was a GSD that was assessed for PP work. A West German show lines animal.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

for me if the dog was in Prey and quit wanting to chase, catch etc....because it was board or being stuborn I would say it lacked prey drive not avoidance.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)




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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam !


_Today is a good day to die!_


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


>


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Grasshopper spoken wisely! Just when the Grasshopper became the Master, the Master becomes the Student!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


>



Nicely put.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Sorry, this topic has been beaten to death. Do a search for "Fight Drive" and related type searches and you will find plenty to read.

I am almost tempted to just lock the thread, because no good can come of this and the people who have valuable input have already given their input on this topic a number of times.

However, I will leave it open, for now, in case someone says something interesting.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"However, I will leave it open, for now, in case someone says something interesting."

I once planted a 20 ounce block of C-4 in the visitors entrance of the White House. True story, a bit on the bragging side, but I thought it was interesting.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!..........No.......not this time?.......DAMN!
Tim said it best! :grin: :grin: :grin: :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> "However, I will leave it open, for now, in case someone says something interesting."
> 
> I once planted a 20 ounce block of C-4 in the visitors entrance of the White House. True story, a bit on the bragging side, but I thought it was interesting.
> 
> DFrost


OK, that IS interesting. :lol:

That qualifies --- right, Mike?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

But is the Statute of limitations up long enough for David to comment further? :grin:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> But is the Statute of limitations up long enough for David to comment further? :grin:



I was working, working I tell ya. And under a very tight group of observers I might add. 

DFrost


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Yes, this does come up time after time*

So many that I have gathered my responses together:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/Drives.htm


I have sent in this reference before and had interesting and useful
response, so, since I intend this to become part of a new book,
I am most interested in comment.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Yes, this does come up time after time*


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Yes, this does come up time after time*



Tim Martens said:


>


Eloquent.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Ya have to wear a tie to beat a dead horse ?*

Sorry, I did not know, promise to do so next time.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Yes, this does come up time after time*



Jim Engel said:


> I have sent in this reference before and had interesting and useful
> response, so, since I intend this to become part of a new book,
> I am most interested in comment.


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=21534&highlight=drives#post21534

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=1386&highlight=drives

These are two of thousands. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

" Ya have to wear a tie to beat a dead horse ? "


Or a nice sweater-vest over a collar shirt (never a t-shirt)....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> " Ya have to wear a tie to beat a dead horse ? "
> 
> 
> Or a nice sweater-vest over a collar shirt (never a t-shirt)....


 
Whatever you wear, it's for sure well worn!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike, Open the mind and unleash the power! To lock any topic is to prevent others who are new from exploring this venue to its fullest. If any topic is that old, which most are in dog training, why have a forum?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Typically when it comes to "this" topic, people fall on one of 2 sides of the fence, neither side is interested in learning because both sides believe that their way is the right way.

For people interested in learning, there are several threads on this forum that have all the information already.

For those interested in debating, you're about 2 years late and we're all sick of it anyway.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks for sharing Mike! One of the draw backs of being a senior to the forum...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike's a senior?!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ............sorry Mike! :grin:


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

David reminds me of my own White House story...

I think what I'm about to say can be blamed on the influence Calvin and Hobbes has had on my life, but as a kid I successfully smuggled one of these babies past security:










However, my stealth failed to endure thanks to my own vanity; I couldn't wait to comb my bowl cut until *after* the guided tour. No, I had to whip it out like a greaser in westside story! And the result? Well, let's just say the guys with the cuff-link microphones, ear pieces, and MP5's under their jackets get credit for not waxing a little bastard that day! #-o :-\" :twisted: 

Anyway, back to the OP's terms. Where exactly does 'gameness' fit into the equation? Fight drive, perhaps? LOL




Andy.


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