# Different Training Exercises



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd like to hear how everyone teaches different exercises, from ob to bitework, i know everyone is different, so, throw some ideas out here and try to be detailed because i'm not to smart  ,
AL


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

ob/heel.. start about 8 mo. playing with a biteroll, what is going to be the reward. After playing hold the roll against my chest with a verbal pay attention. If she follows for a few steps, she gets the bite roll. I build it up from there. Left/right following and beside a bicycle.

You mean something like this?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Everything starts with the attention exercise at heel position. It takes a little patience at first, but the split second the dog makes eye contact, a food reward is given, with a marker for the behavior. \"Good\". The treat is ALWAY given in the sight line between my eyes and the dog's eyes. I use food because I think many dogs have a hard time focusing with toy in sight. Once the dog is solid, and really understands the exercise, then, and only then do I use the toy as a reward. Of course this varies with every dog. One thing I consider EXTREAMLY important is the site picture you give the dog. Always stand straight, shoulders forward. If you turn your shoulders to give the reward, THAT'S the site picture the dog associates the reward with. This, IMHO, is what causes a lot of dogs to do the wrap around heeling. That and giving the reward with the right hand. Only after you have good solid focus form the dog, can ou take the first step. Only one step, then guide the dog back into the sit with the food treat brought back over his head, and slightly to his left. Going slightly to the left will keep the dog from comming around to your front. One step at a time, sit, one step at a time, sit, etc. Trying to take to many steps, at first, will just set the dog up for failure. When that one step, sit, one step sit, etc is solid, start adding a few more steps.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I might add, the difference between this and the (also very effective) Flinks method, is the dog is rewarded for his eye contact with me. Not his staring at the food/toy reward. It doesn't take long at all before I can hold the food/toy out at arms length. The dog is rewarde ONLY for his eye contact with me. I don't want him focusing on the food/toy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Everything starts with the attention exercise at heel position. It takes a little patience at first, but the split second the dog makes eye contact, a food reward is given, with a marker for the behavior. \"Good\". The treat is ALWAY given in the sight line between my eyes and the dog's eyes. I use food because I think many dogs have a hard time focusing with toy in sight. Once the dog is solid, and really understands the exercise, then, and only then do I use the toy as a reward. Of course this varies with every dog. One thing I consider EXTREAMLY important is the site picture you give the dog. Always stand straight, shoulders forward. If you turn your shoulders to give the reward, THAT'S the site picture the dog associates the reward with. This, IMHO, is what causes a lot of dogs to do the wrap around heeling. That and giving the reward with the right hand. Only after you have good solid focus form the dog, can ou take the first step. Only one step, then guide the dog back into the sit with the food treat brought back over his head, and slightly to his left. Going slightly to the left will keep the dog from comming around to your front. One step at a time, sit, one step at a time, sit, etc. Trying to take to many steps, at first, will just set the dog up for failure. When that one step, sit, one step sit, etc is solid, start adding a few more steps.


Bob just told me something I was not attending to: Shoulders (body) forward when I reward. 

Also one step, and sit, one step, sit, is something I learned only recently, and it almost guarantees success. Why did I not learn that for mpph-ty years??

I love this thread.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just goes to show you Connie. Us old dogs CAN learn new tricks. 
   I said that with my outloud voice didn't I.   :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Just goes to show you Connie. Us old dogs CAN learn new tricks.
> I said that with my outloud voice didn't I.   :wink:


LOL! I NEVER should have announced that I was about your age!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*the come*

I would love if people would describe their very first steps with training \"come.\" 

The reason I pick \"come\" is that it's probably the most vital command to have 100%, with maybe \"drop it\" as a close second, for obedience.

Al has started what I think is a terrific thread.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

That´s the only command I teach till they´re 8 mo. Calling there name and give some meat/cheese (in closed area). They will learn come very quick. Later on with a long leash in open area, if command is clear and is done always, they´re totally free. Usually they need a reminder if they´r about 9 mo. :roll: 

At that time the KNOW what the commands mean, but just won´t obey it, I work with an e-collor. They quickly will remember what come ment again :wink:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

what i've used to \"cheat\" is to keep the food treat in my mouth. when we come to a halt in the proper position and dog is looking up at me, i'll drop the treat. key is to get treats that don't taste too bad to humans!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> That´s the only command I teach till they´re 8 mo. Calling there name and give some meat/cheese (in closed area). They will learn come very quick. Later on with a long leash in open area, if command is clear and is done always, they´re totally free. Usually they need a reminder if they´r about 9 mo. :roll:
> 
> At that time the KNOW what the commands mean, but just won´t obey it, I work with an e-collor. They quickly will remember what come ment again :wink:


If you were helping with a dog who didn't have an e-collar, what would you do at that rebellious stage? What I have done is start all over with the treats in the enclosed place. Any better ideas?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> what i've used to \"cheat\" is to keep the food treat in my mouth. when we come to a halt in the proper position and dog is looking up at me, i'll drop the treat. key is to get treats that don't taste too bad to humans!


So when you say \"drop the treat\" -- this opens a new area in Ob training for me. I have always hand-fed the reward, requiring \"sit\" almost always for the treat, but with a verbal marker instantly. (Command, obedience, \"good boy,\" sit, treat.)

I am totally open to different scenarios. My own other-dog work is 99% with people who need to learn pack leadership, and very little with formal sit-stay-heel-come. My own dogs get much more of the \"formal\" training. This means that I am interested in better and more competition-level Ob training with my own dogs (just for the fun; I don't know if I will ever compete).

So is this what others do? Drop the treat from their mouth? I can certainly see that this could help with training attention on the handler's face!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

oh yeah, this only works well with a dog who can catch the treat. if the dog can't catch the treat, then he may break the sit to pick up the treat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> oh yeah, this only works well with a dog who can catch the treat. if the dog can't catch the treat, then he may break the sit to pick up the treat.


OK, I get it now! You're not letting the dog scramble around for the dropped treat!

I guess it also has to be a handler who can drop a treat with some kind of aim.......

I am going to try it. I think the GSD will do this great and the Pug might not be able to catch it. This will be an exciting new thing in the routine, though.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> what i've used to \"cheat\" is to keep the food treat in my mouth. when we come to a halt in the proper position and dog is looking up at me, i'll drop the treat. key is to get treats that don't taste too bad to humans!


I have also done what Tim describes. First taught the dog to catch treats........took a week , evry day a few times, then did the food in the mouth trick.........grilled sausage meat works great.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hil Harrison said:


> Tim Martens said:
> 
> 
> > what i've used to \"cheat\" is to keep the food treat in my mouth. when we come to a halt in the proper position and dog is looking up at me, i'll drop the treat. key is to get treats that don't taste too bad to humans!
> ...


OMG what a hilarious thing this was with the Pug! We settled on a treat we would both eat, which was easy (since there is nothing he will not eat).

But try as he might, he could NOT catch it! He kept looking in my eyes and opening his mouth but not following the path of the treat with his eyes......not even to move his head, like, 1/2 inch! The treat would hit his nose and bounce off and it was all over, or even hit the side of his gaping mouth and bounce off! And remember, he's way far away down there, half as close as the GSD for me to aim.

It was highly entertaining for everyone involved. In fact, I almost got cramps from laughing.

I was too weak to try it on Pomfret (GSD). Tomorrow...........


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*training*

I do get it, though, even if he didn't. One of us got some training.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*training*

Please keep those routines coming, though! This may not have been my best training session ever, but it was educational! And I *will* get it to work.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Tim Martens said:
> 
> 
> > oh yeah, this only works well with a dog who can catch the treat. if the dog can't catch the treat, then he may break the sit to pick up the treat.





\"Connie Sutherland\" said:


> OK, I get it now! You're not letting the dog scramble around for the dropped treat!


My Sable does this when I drop treats between her front legs on a platz. Funny
thing is, they bounce, and she'll scramble to get it :x 



\"Connie Sutherland\" said:


> I guess it also has to be a handler who can drop a treat with some kind of aim.......


I have to train myself :!:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

The trainer at a Schutzhund club here in Orlando showed me how skilled she was with dropping treats from her mouth.... she could put a whole bunch of small chopped up pieces of hotdog in her mouth, n literally spit them into the dogs mouth at a short distance with perfect aim. I've often thought about doing something like this with Cujo, but I just have issues with putting cold hotdog in my mouth LOL.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I have used this method with hot dogs since my female was 9 weeks old. All she had to do at that time we give me eye contact, I'd mark it & drop a piece of hot dog from my mouth. Still use it with my dogs for certain behaviors. And Mike you are right....I hate the tast of the hot dogs. In fact I the thought of eating a hot dog cold or hot makes me want to puke. I hate the tast of them....used to like them. But they work for the dog, so I just deal...... :roll:


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> The trainer at a Schutzhund club here in Orlando showed me how skilled she was with dropping treats from her mouth.... she could put a whole bunch of small chopped up pieces of hotdog in her mouth, n literally spit them into the dogs mouth at a short distance with perfect aim. I've often thought about doing something like this with Cujo, but I just have issues with putting cold hotdog in my mouth LOL.


yes Mike thats the trick to put a few in your mouth at once. I forgot to add that on my post. Maybe you could just warm the hotdogs up beforehand :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I may get called a BSer here, but I've never had a dog of my own that didn't come when I called it. The, hands down, best time to train this is when the pup is less then 12-14wks old. It still has a very strong desire to stay with the pack (you). I always take the new pup for very short walks in the woods. When the pup is distracted by something, I simply step behind a tree. The pup turns around, realizes his pack is gone, THEN I step out from behind the tree with a, \"Come!\" They come flying back where I give them treats and TONS of praise. Once the pup hits the 12-14wk old stage, they become much more adventurous, and the ease of this method goes down a bit.
Additionally, when it's feeding time, have someone hold the pup a few feet away. When the pup hears/sees the food dish, and starts wiggling to get loose, put the food down with a \"Come\" command. The pup will come flying. Gradually got to the other side of the room. Into another room, etc.
Also! One person holds the pup, another teases with food. No name or come command at this point. When the pup is going crazy to get loose and come to the one holding the food, THEN, the person holding the food gives a \"Come\" command, the holder releases, and the pup comes flying. This command is all about motiviting the pup to WANT to come in. 
As a kid, I was the classic \"boy and his dog\". My dogs were always with me. I grew up in the inner city. Never used a leash. Never recall being worried about them not comming. When I walked away, they followed. I didn't even know I was actually training them.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> The, hands down, best time to train this is when the pup is less then 12-14wks old....


Hello Bob,

What would you suggest to someone who rescues/adopts a juvenile/adult dog? It would seem that the food work, would work - right?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Martin Espericueta said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > The, hands down, best time to train this is when the pup is less then 12-14wks old....
> ...


This is for Bob, and I too always want to hear his answers, but I want to jump in and say YES! I've never had a puppy (since I was a kid), and treats and praise have sure worked for me.

And back to Bob..........


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yes! If the dog has good food drive, this method will work. The difference with a rescue, or any older dog, is they don't feel the same need to stay in close with their pack. In that situation, I wouldn't take the dog off lead till it was REALLY solid. Even in your own yard, the dog MUST NOT BE DISTRACTED. Calling an untrained dog, who may be distracted, is a setup for failure. Example: The dog is barking at the fence. Neighbors dog, stranger, birds, whatever. You CANNOT expect an un trained dog to respond. All you teach the dog in that situation is he doesn't have to come when he hears that word. NEVER call a distracted, untrained dog, even in your own yard. Either go to the dog, or wait out the distraction. Don't give it a reason to refuse. In teaching a dog of any age, you also have to learn the difference between bribing with food/toy and rewarding. That's why you hear people talking about food/toy training is a no, no. They just never understand the difference between a bribe and a reward. 
Also, unless a rescue dog is one of those totally dependant on people types, you need to create a bond with it before it has a reason to come to you. Many rescue dogs easily become \"velcro\" dogs when they get the attention the crave for the first time.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> .....NEVER call a distracted, untrained dog, even in your own yard. Either go to the dog, or wait out the distraction......


This should probably be carved in stone for all who adopt or rescue! For me, the way to teach the dog to come is to make it 100% desirable for the first *many* times s/he's called (once bonded, which is also a great point)........there's me, with toys and treats, and there's............well, there's nothing better around, so here s/he comes!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike, developing that skill is bound to win you a bar bet at some point in your life.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Biggest mistake I made with my dog was letting what little food drive she had go away. It was dumb. We do all our play/walking/interaction/training (usually) very early morning and late at night...in this cold MN, I ended up not carrying around the treat bag. She's okay with object rewards but food is not her first impulse, at all. I really regret this. Trying to rebuild it as we speak. She's just never been into food that much...I posted in another thread that her treats (GOOD ones, solid gold turkey jerky, solid gold lamb lung, some locally sold liver stuff) are right up on top of her crate. She leaves them alone, always. 

Unless my toddler has them. That kid fed her almost a full pound of turkey jerky one night over the baby fence...argh...she was only four months at the time. They bonded very well, but man, what a messy yard the next day.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

It's funny, people all talk about drive building like Bernard Flinks and the other folks that build drive for toys thru frustration -- but few people realize that you can build food drive the same way. My dog goes crazy for food now, while when he was younger, even though he had food drive, it was never very strong.

The smellier the food the more interest he has in it, hotdogs, freeze dried liver, cheese etc work great... but what I do with hotdogs is, well, firstly I teach him an \"eat\" command so he knows what I'm trying to get him to do... then I sit down on the bed or on the couch or the floor n call him to me (ha, if I have food in my hand there's not much calling involved), then tell him to sit/lay down/give paw n stuff, then I put the piece of hotdog in a closed fist n tell him his \"eat\" command, n let him nudge his nose at my hand... if the dog is so low in food drive that he gives up, open the hand a little bit so he can't get it but at least feels as though he has a chance, but keep denying it until he's really trying... how long you deny it means you need to read YOUR dog and decide at what point your dog is likely to give up, n reward by opening your hand before he gives up. Keep doing this over n over every day, it really builds the dogs \"hotdog drive\"  Because the dog knows that if he keeps trying he gets the reward, n because he can't have the reward he wants it even more.

To me food drive is very important, I love training with food... but I don't rely on food to train. If I don't have food my dog still has to listen, but it really builds speed and motivation and it's an easier and quicker reward to mark good behavior than playing tug, then having to let the dog win the tug, then hope you get the tug back from the dog


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree 100% about the food drive Mike. ALL my obedience starts with food. Even dogs with mediocre drives will kick into gear on an empty stomach. Until some dogs get through the learning phase, toys/balls. kongs, etc, puts them WAY over the top to learn well. 
Most dogs have something that trips their trigger. Food and toys are the most used, and probably the most common. 
I've heard a story (don't know how true) about a dog that had to do his whole Sch III routine before he could breed a bitch. Now THAT'S drive! :wink:


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

I love this stuff, there are very few posts I read that I don't learn something or get a new idea and put a personal spin on, or get a satisfying laugh from when Jeff O. posts one of his responses!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> I'd like to hear how everyone teaches different exercises, from ob to bitework, i know everyone is different, so, throw some ideas out here and* try to be detailed because i'm not to smart*  ,
> AL


Oh Lord...GIVE ME STRENGTH!!! 
Al, we do group obedience in a circle and do lots of crossing drills and dog "platz" moves. Dominance issues are then toned down, blending in some of the AKC CGC elements has also been useful.

Bite work through air scenting and short sends into hedgerows shows how well the dog can work from the handler. When the handler is on site, we slip the sleeve and let the dog win. If the dog has an issue about going into the brush, we stand out and give them a bite.

Finding a small set of woods and doing it this time of year to avoid bugs is good. Bite suit work on bleachers is something some dogs stress on. But when you them them that "we" are working on free Dallas Cowboy seats, the dog understands! 

Good Luck!


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