# German Shepherd Stud Needed



## Charles Saul (Dec 12, 2008)

Searching for stud in the Okeechobee area of FLorida. Father has nice female from Leerburg Kennel that has just come into heat. Born 7/16/04 out of Xando Vom Haus Leigbiter and Ramona Vom Leerburg. She has never been tested but does have excellent prey drive, ball drive. This wil be her first breeding. Any references would be appreciated.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

What would make this bitch suitable for breeding? 

No working titles and/or certifications. 
Has the dog had its OFA done? 

This is such a rough time in the economy that I would really worry about producing puppies that don't come from stellar parents. Not when there are so many dogs available from working homes.


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## Charles Saul (Dec 12, 2008)

Nancy,
 Thanks for your response. This breeding is for personal use and not an effort to make money. Our concern is not what titles a dog possesses but what we can see from the dog.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Charles, 

I would probably ask the same questions that Nancy did. If the litter is for personal use...what are you going to do with all those pups? LOL you are going to be one busy man.... 

Having her hips and elbows OFA'd is really a good idea, as it relieves you of any heartache later down the road. It is no fun raising a pup, putting all the time and effort into training only to find out that the dog has issues with it's hips or elbows that will not allow the dog to progress, and possibly be on pain management for the rest of it's life. 
I have been there, and it is no fun.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Charles Saul said:


> Searching for stud in the Okeechobee area of FLorida. Father has nice female from Leerburg Kennel that has just come into heat. Born 7/16/04 out of Xando Vom Haus Leigbiter and Ramona Vom Leerburg. She has never been tested but does have excellent prey drive, ball drive. This wil be her first breeding. Any references would be appreciated.


 I know the dog Xando he and Cindy were in our club he is a decent dog but nothing special.Could you explain why you think your untested bitch should be bred:-x


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Charles, she must be OFA'd if she isn't.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Charles, she must be OFA'd if she isn't.


Good hips and elbows are a start chasing a ball is still falling a bit short of being breed worthy. 
No wonder the German Shepherd is becoming the crippled caricature laughing stock of the working dogs this is bullshit


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Good hips and elbows are a start chasing a ball is still falling a bit short of being breed worthy.


Agreed.....


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## Charles Saul (Dec 12, 2008)

Didn't mean to start a debate. Personally 90% of the dogs we read about and people brag about are shit dogs. They are dressed up and made to sound good by friends and family. While I know the dog should be OFA'd tested etc, I am wanting the pups for my purposes not to try and advertise as the best pups in the country etc. Hell, they're are enough shit dogs coming out of "top dogs" in this country as it is. My goal was to find someone who may have a suitable stud who is willing to breed.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Charles Saul said:


> Didn't mean to start a debate. Personally 90% of the dogs we read about and people brag about are shit dogs.


Ummm....I don't think there is a debate going on. And I definitely think your percentage is off, especially with some of the dogs that are owned by people on this forum. 

Would never say my dogs are the greatest, but they definitely aren't shit either. 

Good luck in your endeavor though.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

A serious breeder puts a lot of work and time into his breeding. What you're doing is simply mating two dogs which is inadvisable, even if you say the progeny is for your own use. To call it breeding is an insult.

I was once asked by someone if I would let my dog mate her friend's bitch. She assured me that the person was responsible and had a good bitch. My dog was 16 months old, I didn't have his hips and elbow results back, although the vet assured me they were super. I didn't need to think before I said no.

You'll probably have to find a breeder who's in it for the money only if you want to go down this hazardous path. Luckily a lot of stud dog breeders are interested in their breed and don't just let their dogs mate any bitch, especially one that's not even been tested for hips and elbows, let alone proven for character.

And the bit about the 90% is rich when one thinks what you are going to contribute maybe.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I think people are giving you grief over it because its just so easy to F%^K up a German Shepherd litter. Without xraying hips and elbows you are playing with fire, because if she has problems and you breed her you could easly get 2 or 3 pups that have crap hips, or elbows for that matter.
It really does take more effort and knowedge to breed a good GSD litter than a Mali litter, not just in regards to character but health. 
Dont take it personal, I think people are just trying to save you possible headaches. Theres enough backyard breeders producing shit of the worst order without adding to it. If you did xray and did some work with her and tested her and it all came back good people would happly help you with a possible stud.
I know of people who spent MEGA bucks importing some awesome GSD's to breed, all titled strong dogs, and all xrayed good, and they still got issues.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

what does "personal use" mean? that you're keeping ALL the pups? why would anyone need 8-12 GSD, + the dam, for "personal use"?? do you have a huge acreage and 100's of sheep?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I agree with other posters on the thread. PM sent.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

In addition to the very valid points made by other's in this thread, even if this untitled, non-OFAed bitch is the best GSD female ever to grace the breed, you're not going to have much luck finding a top notch, quality, proven to produce stud dog who's owner is willing to even consider breeding to a bitch who is untested, no OFAs, etc... Particularly if you are limiting your search to such a small area of the country. Best you're going to find for a female who has no breeding credentials is a male who also lacks the proper credentials for breeding.

Sorry, but this sounds like yet another "working line BYB" breeding. Not what this breed needs.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Charles Saul said:


> Didn't mean to start a debate. Personally 90% of the dogs we read about and people brag about are shit dogs. They are dressed up and made to sound good by friends and family. While I know the dog should be OFA'd tested etc, I am wanting the pups for my purposes not to try and advertise as the best pups in the country etc. Hell, they're are enough shit dogs coming out of "top dogs" in this country as it is. My goal was to find someone who may have a suitable stud who is willing to breed.


So it would be a good idea to add even worse shitters to the dog pile? I am not saying I agree with your 90% figure, but it sounds like you are saying there are so many shitters out there who cares if you breed even more shitters!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Charles Saul said:


> Searching for stud in the Okeechobee area of FLorida. Father has nice female from Leerburg Kennel that has just come into heat. Born 7/16/04 out of Xando Vom Haus Leigbiter and Ramona Vom Leerburg. She has never been tested but does have excellent prey drive, ball drive. This wil be her first breeding. Any references would be appreciated.


This sounds like a last minute descision if the bitch is already in heat and you have not selected a proper stud to use. You will have to really rush to get her OFA'd, titled, and then have her really selection tested to determine if she is actually suitable to be used for breeding. Then get her tested for brucellosis, and then find a proven stud with the correct bloodlines that will compliment hers. For me this process takes about 2 years, and usually involves a trip or two to Europe. If she is just coming in heat, then you have about 10 days to get it all done.........GOOD LUCK !!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

This may be another thread but I've heard that a bitch in heat is not the best time to OFA her. because of the birth process with the hips. I don't know, just what I've heard.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> This may be another thread but I've heard that a bitch in heat is not the best time to OFA her. because of the birth process with the hips. I don't know, just what I've heard.



Been told that when in heat the hips become "looser" and can produce OFA's that are not accurate. As well as being told not to x-ray for at least 3 weeks after heat to allow the hips to tighten back up. Doubt it applies to elbows.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My x girlfriend had a pup out of xando and he was put down due to spine problems. He also was monorchid.

Do what you want, but at least you will know this much. When leerburg was contacted, a fit was thrown, and spinal problems could never happen bla bla bla.

She and I went and trained at the club where xandos first owners trained and when they heard that her dog was a son, they basically said that the dog was an asshole, and not in a good way.

So there you go, that is what I know of the dog, hope that helps when you choose.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Unfortunately he will find somebody willing to breed his fathers bitch. All here had good points, I don't think he wants to listen.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: but it sounds like you are saying there are so many shitters out there who cares if you breed even more shitters!

Who here can prove him wrong ??? Every one of you show me a litter that you have produced and lets look and see if "what he sounds like he is saying" is true.

Any GSD breeder out there got the balls to show us what they are producing ???

Healthy shitter is still a shitter. LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: but it sounds like you are saying there are so many shitters out there who cares if you breed even more shitters!
> 
> Who here can prove him wrong ??? Every one of you show me a litter that you have produced and lets look and see if "what he sounds like he is saying" is true.
> 
> ...


First define the parameters, what is a shitter? 

A shitter for someone who competes on the national and international level might be a club level dog. A shitter to someone who competes on the local level may be a dog not capable of anything but barely passing scores on schH1 on the dog's home field.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: but it sounds like you are saying there are so many shitters out there who cares if you breed even more shitters!
> 
> Who here can prove him wrong ??? Every one of you show me a litter that you have produced and lets look and see if "what he sounds like he is saying" is true.
> 
> ...


LMAO You do have a way with words Jeff. 

Honestly, most people start breeding this exact same way. My first dale was a bitch I saw a ton of hunt in. She was a show bitch and I found a show male and was off and breeding. The driving force was the number of people that told me I couldn't do what I was doing. While people cried about OFA, I was busy running the offspring in front of a truck for 20 miles and figured I didn't need to OFA and I didn't. They cried about Cerf but I ran my dogs through the forest at night and figured their eyes were just fine because they weren't running into trees even in the dark. Then people started throwing this "for the good of the breed" bullshit at me because I culled all but the strong and I sat there and watched them save all the shitters "for the good of the breed" of course.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I got the balls, but it's sort of difficult to do, after the litter has separated and they've "disappeared". Unlike some breeders that claim to do, I don't bother my clients unless they decide themselves to stay in touch.

Last night however, a first time unusual circumstance. I just picked up a dog from DIA that's nearly two years old, from one of my former breedings. He was too difficult for his owner, with dog aggression issues. Other than a good set of basic obedience instruction, he's had no formal training, and I'm able to see a lot of what's underneath the surface. But so much by this stage also has to do with development/environment after what genetics has provided, what would you hope to see?

I prefer not to make it my business to condem anyone else's breeding practices. The owner of the dogs are in a better position to evaluate what they're breeding on. But I admit, this proposal would not interest myself or most of us here in the least bit, by most measures of any worth. And also, in his lack of definition as to what "suitable male" could mean, while at the same time expressing disdain for "top producers", I have to wonder how to interpret that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sad thing is the assumption was the dog was an unhealthy shitter from the start.

I just think that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. There are people on this board breeding shitters that we have seen, and know that they are actually shitters, so whats the difference really ???

I would breed to the guys bitch if he went and got a brucellosis test. What would be the worst that could happen ?? Some dogs get sent to the pound ?? happens every stinking day by the hundreds.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

I don't breed, but who can say that he doesn't end up with a litter of old school pups that can handle whatever. Its been said on several other posts that the malinois breed has a lot of dogs that others wouldn't want, but this is what makes the malinois great. Why can't he end up with pups like that? Maybe he's going to give the pups to his family.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

My take on this: I'm not too concerned if the dog has no titles as long as I can see the dog and determine for myself what I see in the dog. Most of us knows what drive looks like, most knows a good temperment when we see it. These are things we seem to just know because we have seen many dogs. It's experience. We know structure, body build etc.. We don't know what's seen through x-rays. This is a must. If the ofa is not good I would not breed it. Does that mean that this dog with bad hips would reproduce it, no. Chances are that it will. I also look at the pedigree. That too doesn't mean the dog will reproduce that but again the chances are better that a good pedigree helps. None is set in stone.
Titles are good. This is something that shows the workability of a dog. I would breed my dog to a dog if the ofa is good (no health issues) and I saw in that dog what I want to add to my dog. It's still a crap shoot and you don't really know what you are going to get untill you breed. Proven breeding is as good as you can get, like what Don is doing. Then you have a basis of what to expect. Don't just throw the dice, think about what you are looking for and hope for the best.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

"crap shoot" - I hate the term, I wish everyone would quit using it, instead say "weighted decision", "best guess", "lowest risk" or something along those lines. The gambles we take are _all relative,_ and nothing so totally random. How often do two shitters ever create a top performer? I think the "crapshoot" term implies some reasonable chance for hope, and perhaps on rather rare occasions there is, but not something to encourage. A _shot in the dark_ is going to require a lot of unsuccessful attempts, before it ever proves fruitful.

_"The most successful people are those who are good at Plan B."_
~James A. Yorke, Chaos Mathematician

Chaos Theory: the basic gist is, _random stuff happens from predictable causes._ There are with certainty, various mechanisms that underlie the seemingly unpredictable behaviors in nature.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

If you thought I was encouraging this you my friend are wrong. The term crapshoot you may not like but at the same time the terms you used are no different. Weighted decision, best guess, how is there any difference in crapshoot, none. Luck is the crapshoot, weighted decision and best guess. Daryl, I agree with most of what you say but this is no difference. Even with two top preformers you never get complete results. Yes the chances are better but it's still a crapshoot. I'm sure in your breedings you have found this to be true. I'm not a breeder but Ray Charles could see that.

Love you man, good discussion.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

It only bothers me, because I don't believe in random chance, and it sounds as if to say, _"you can get equal opportunity for results, no matter what the ingredients, so why bother selecting the best possible match within your grasp."_ To me, it then seems necessary to emphasize that all puppies are _not equal_ from "ground zero", and that a breeder can very significantly influence favorable potential _before _they hit the ground running.

I realize I seem weirdly sensitive about it, but a couple core tenets of my belief are...No matter how random or senseless something may appear, there's always a hidden pattern, that just needs to be sorted through the proper filter or seen through the proper lenses. And Nothing is ever free from influence.

If risk and gamble is the point, I understand. But an analogy of dice rolls are less easily influenced by the player than a round of poker or blackjack would be. I think it paints a misconception of the breeder's role. A card game analogy would make more relative sense, given the context.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Point taken.


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