# Great working dogs, are they special even as pups?



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

I'm always fascinated by this phenomenon, any time I get a chance to talk with an owner/handler of one of those benchmark dogs I always ask if it was obvious they were going to be something special when they were pups or was it something that really didnt start to show up until later on down the road?

I really want to aim this question at Dick V.L., looking back at the rocky's the robbies and the spikes, were they just like any other pups or could you see something that let you know these were no ordinary pups?


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I saw this article on karthago and tiekerhook some years ago and the karthago kennels owner said that in some of the litters dogs that were supposed to be 'number 4 or 5' ended up being the top dogs in the litters as adults. It makes me wonder how difficult it is for a breeder to keep the best to improve his line.

http://www.grunfeldshepherds.com/new/articles/misc/SchH USA v32. no.1 1-2007-1.pdf


----------



## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Drew,
I think you are asking a very pertinent question. I think the majority of the time, training groups do the best they can with canine candidates, and are probably selecting from a marginalized gene poole. The advantage that the Dutch breeders have is that they have a true working standard/heritage and a strong gene pool,and are not selecting from a vast majority of dogs , such as in the US, where people who want to explore protection sports, but don't want a dog that is a potential liability, can get involved in, resulting in diluting the true workingdog traits.
There might be a majority of pup prospects in the states that show nice prey drive at an early age, but that is the depth of what they bring genetically to the training field. After a while, you see a dog with a nice grip if you are lucky, but the other traits that would make for a strong service/police dog are not there. Then you get into the whole sport/working thing. Strong dogs are usually a potential liability in the wrong hands. That does not mean that strong dogs are vicious, but rather, people who breed and place dogs who love to bite, need to be placed with the right handlers.
The other salient feature that I would look for in pups that show great promise, as evidenced by extreme desire to bite, is strong nerves/ or no problems with environmental stressors as a pup. 
I think there are a lot of pups that looks good when presented with basic prey drive approaches at an early age. Then you have to look at thresholds. Genetics is always the foundation.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

One thing that must be considered is exactly where did the pups go? Did they go to gifted experienced handlers or ?? One person can take a pup and get things out of it another person may not be able to etc etc. Theres a lot of factors in the grand scheme of things. But a good question!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No, not in my experience. Some were, some were not. I am talking about less than ten dogs total in my lifetime. I am not talking points, so take that into account. Great to me is how he produces.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I would say yes.
All the ones I know already showed as a pup that they were something special.
But there are a lot of those exceptional pups that never get famous because the handler isn't capable to control them and hence they never show up on the trial field.

I don't know any good *stud *dog (not talking about tites) that wasn't very promising as a pup.


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

thats what I'm really getting at here martine, and tim is a perfect example for my question

jeff production is a different topic, this is only about being able to single out a pup and see something in him or her that lets you know this is no ordinary pup, and the question always needs to be asked in reverse to owners of dogs already proven to be top of the food chain, like ulko for example, how did he stack up to his litermates?
was it obvious at 8weeks he was on another level from everyone else or was he #3 or #4 in the litter as mentioned and then really showed up big at 9-12 months?


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Drew I like the question! I think special dogs are those who want to please the owner/handler. There's a bond that seems to make them do ALL that they can to make you happy with them. My first Lab and current BC are two that I have owned and can say that about!!!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My biggest fault is that I look at production first. I am good at picking dogs to fit the person, always have been. I would say that I am not as good at picking out the phenoms simply because I have not seen nearly as many as I have just good dogs that will do the job. 

Years ago, with a different breed, I did a good job of making an overall stronger dog. Then, I found out that people THINK they want this type of dog, but reality is that they want a dog that does the job.

I would love to try and do that with the GSD, and am seriously tempted to, but I see people struggling with what I consider average dogs, I see them building average dogs and telling the world how great they are, and just shake my head when I see a dog like Spike, and how they can say their dog is great when he is obviously in a seriously different category then the "just barely not a shitter" dog that they are saying is AWESOME and GREAT ! ! ! ! LOL

I have a few ideas of what I would like to produce, hope I can afford to create that.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I pick all my pups at 4 to 5 weeks before they are subjected to the environment, people and training. I want to see what the raw pups is. In Europe, there is much better linebreeding for purpose. This leads to dogs that more similar overall which should make the best more visable at a young age. On the other hand, if your not working with a definite line, all the dgs have different traits, it may be pretty tough to even know what one is looking at in a litter and objectivity loses ground to human tendencies to pick the the dog that just likes the person best as it is seen as more maleable rather what is really an overall good working dog. In a good linebred line, many of the pups should also be pretty close in ability, but, I think the cream rises to the top very early.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think many of the great dogs would show some signs as young puppies The easiest i guess would be prey drive, a puppy that would grip the sleeve at 9weeks, dominate other puppies, be really possesive of prey items etc would give breeders signs that they have a superb pup.

@jeff, i have been thinking about what you said about people seeing average dogs as superb or not wanting extreme dogs and i think the GSD has many of such unforunately some are breeders, they use average dogs as stud dogs ad the progeny just keep getting worse,we dont see too many yoschy, nick type dogs around. it seems many of the ple with malis are generally pple that love/can handle high drive dogs. What do you think?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: it seems many of the ple with malis are generally pple that love/can handle high drive dogs. What do you think?

I think the big thing that stands in the way of understanding is terminology more than anything else. There are politics that keep some dogs from being shown as weak, there are some people that are just really nice people, and even I would have a hard time doing that to them.

One of the problems is how much (US) of a persons ego is tied to his/her dogs abilities. I have seen people (a lot) just outright quit when you showed them weakness's in their dogs. Some were shitters, and some were just average dogs, and some just needed that worked on. They get mad at you and off they go. Really unrealistic.

But trust me, there are many many very carefully put together Mals out there that if you watch them close, you can see that they could be held off.

I want to see (within the rules) the true character of the dog. If he will run, if he hesitates, whatever, I want the decoys to do their best to show the flaws. Not likely to happen, as EVERYONE but me would be all butt hurt. 

With that kind of shit mentality, the breeds will continue to get weaker, no doubt about it. Here in the states we will never see a Nick or Yoshy or Pike, as the owner would put the dog down.


----------



## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: With that kind of shit mentality, the breeds will continue to get weaker, no doubt about it. Here in the states we will never see a Nick or Yoshy or Pike, as the owner would put the dog down.


Very, very, true. It is what has perpetuated the decline in really good working GSDs for sure. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to find really outdstanding pups. 

Some of the GSD breeders that I know, are breeding 'lesser' dogs & less litters, because they can't always find good working homes for pups. Even the lower drive pups, from good working litters, are often hard to place....the normal family finds many of even these dogs 'too much' to live with. It's a shame.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Anne Jones said:


> Very, very, true. It is what has perpetuated the decline in really good working GSDs for sure. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to find really outdstanding pups.
> 
> Some of the GSD breeders that I know, are breeding 'lesser' dogs & less litters, because they can't always find good working homes for pups. Even the lower drive pups, from good working litters, are often hard to place....the normal family finds many of even these dogs 'too much' to live with. It's a shame.


With that said i think there is hope. I would love to see GSDs in other sports like KNPV, belgian ring etc. Nate Harve's Caine i respected a lot and wish he had more litters. There a still a few breeders with strong working ability in mind so there is still hope. I just wish the breed becomes less attractive to non-working people. Maybe if the military or other LE agency used them more i guess breeders wouldn't be complaining of not having good homes.Now back to the original thread!!!


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

All those dogs you mention were first picks of the litter, you can already see as pups something special in them. Their look to the world, "uitstraling" = appereance?. You just see/feel it.

Dick


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> All those dogs you mention were first picks of the litter, you can already see as pups something special in them. Their look to the world, "uitstraling" = appereance?. You just see/feel it.
> 
> Dick


Hi Selena,
Please could you explain a little i don't really understand what you said.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

It is hard to explain, we usually-just like Don- pick a puppy at 4- 5 wks. We choose definite at 7 wks, but we always end up with our initinial choice. You just "know" it, our litters are usually pretty uniform 'cause we do a lot of line-inbreeding, but also than you always have a #1 in the litter. We have it in every litter, there is always a favorite that I/we would choose for ourselves. Even if we don't keep a pup ourself.

We usually we choose both the same pup as favorite, if we choose both another pup, Dick's favorite is always the more angry one.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> It is hard to explain, we usually-just like Don- pick a puppy at 4- 5 wks. We choose definite at 7 wks, but we always end up with our initinial choice. You just "know" it, our litters are usually pretty uniform 'cause we do a lot of line-inbreeding, but also than you always have a #1 in the litter. We have it in every litter, there is always a favorite that I/we would choose for ourselves. Even if we don't keep a pup ourself.


Thanks,
I'm not surprised with your experience that is expected. Do things like bullying other puppies, being possessive of toys etc count to you?
Since you breed police type dogs do you test for 'social aggression', for example you are playing tug with the puppy then you inch a little the pull the tug away and the puppy bites you, is that a good sign. I've seen Koos hassing do it.

Here
http://www.tiekerhook.com/images/videos/ultra.wmv


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> All those dogs you mention were first picks of the litter, you can already see as pups something special in them. Their look to the world, "uitstraling" = appereance?. You just see/feel it.
> 
> Dick



thats what I was looking for................


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think you have to have a feel for it for sure, but I also think that the way that Dick breeds, and how long he has bred dogs makes a big difference as well.

Too many people have too few litters to even come close to ever really knowing if they are going forward or not. The lack of working homes is a killer as well.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

We can predict pretty accurate how a puppy will develop, in character and looks at 7 wks. A great part depends also on the handler, but about the "pure" character we're about 90-99.9% accurate. 


I always had a favorite to in my father's litter, most of my favorites in the litter later became good dogs ;-).


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks,
> I'm not surprised with your experience that is expected. Do things like bullying other puppies, being possessive of toys etc count to you?
> Since you breed police type dogs do you test for 'social aggression', for example you are playing tug with the puppy then you inch a little the pull the tug away and the puppy bites you, is that a good sign. I've seen Koos hassing do it.
> 
> ...


I pay close attention to pups that bully. I get rid of the bullies. I get rid of the pups that get bullied.  That is something that shows more at 6 to 8 weeks. The pups I pick at 4 to 5 weeks display the most confidence. Because of the confidence they display, they get along well with the other pups and the bullies don't even try to bully them. They are their own dog. Some, even at 5 weeks , will lay close to me while the others are playing and fighting. It is like they are just above that nonsence. As Selena and Dick said, some pups just have such a high confidence level, they are as different as night and day to many of the pups. I have had several in a litter that are close seconds and thirds....but there is always a tell tale sign of which is which. The ones close in the running may bang heads with each other, but if you watch them, they NEVER pick on the less confident pups. Those are the pups that take everything to the next level. I don't like the term "social aggresion". To me it actually implies a weaker dog. Social dominate works better for me. They have to dominate. Many times they have to resort to aggressin....but not very often.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I have to agree with alot of folks on here, even though I have not done alot of breeding myself over the years I have picked and started with many young puppies outside of the older green ones. Its kinda like a sixth sense that you just getting that feeling from one sometimes two pups. I have bought two pups before and have lucked out with both and have lucked out with just picking one when I thought there was one. 

My last litter I picked two and held back two and eventually down to one which happen to be a female ( my initial ) over a male ( my wifes intial ) because of a tad bit more intensity in using her nose, but they were both side by side in bite work. I would pick her still first if I had to do it all over again as pick for that special pup in the litter ( Its not always the male folks thats first pick in a litter ).


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Drew Peirce said:


> thats what I was looking for................


Most pups have that Hannibal look, especially during a garden raid.

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac13/ggrimwood/DSC_1124.jpg

If you let that special pup grow up on his own, what would you have ??


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

it's a female gerry, clarify what you mean by "on it's own"


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I meant without the training a special pup will not be a great dog, hunting dogs and sled dogs with that same potential as a pup don't need the specialised training to become what they are...they can learn most of it from running with other dogs.

The great dogs that are well known usually have great trainers/owners.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The "special" pup that you see at 5 weeks that is going into a heavily trained venue is still special. It is harder to screw the puops up, it will go farther with a less than great trainer. Most importantly, whoever works one of these pups will forever more be unhappy with anything less because they will realize the difference between really good/great vs marginal. I think the reason so many are happy with marginal dogs is that they have never worked a good, solid one.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Wow, Don well said


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm guessing that we would possibly see more special pups but not all of them fall into the right hands. 
The number of special breeders then trainers then handlers will always limit how many of these pups get "found". 
How many of these special pups are lost to average or less then average people?! 
We'll never now!


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

One thing to keep in mind, the pups that apopear to be special are only being compare to that particular litter. If the litter is just an "average" litter, then the "special" pup really isn't going to be that special....except by comparison to his littermates. The majority of pups, litters, dogs etc, fall into the "average" category.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I meant without the training a special pup will not be a great dog, hunting dogs and sled dogs with that same potential as a pup don't need the specialised training to become what they are...they can learn most of it from running with other dogs.


Respectfully disagree with you, a dog with certain traits will show it and display certain behviour, therefor you don´t need much training, also with John Smit in the suburbs and it can cause trouble for John. 
Training those dogs is to keep it controlable ;-) and bent the behaviour like you want to see it.

We don't do any formal training with pups/ young dogs befor 9 mo/ 1 yr. Only their name, and to come when called.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> We don't do any formal training with pups/ young dogs befor 9 mo/ 1 yr. Only their name, and to come when called.


But the training is still an important part of what the dog will be, if you start at a few months or a year of age ?

Pups are staked out to watch the adults working in many videos, that's still training..might be passive but it's still training.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

My previous dog was great dog at I got him at 8 weeks by16 weeks we new he was something special. His breeder wanted him back and offered to buy me any dog I wanted if they could have him back. 
I sorta thought my Jett might be a great one it turns out hes what I would call a really good one.


----------



## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The "special" pup that you see at 5 weeks that is going into a heavily trained venue is still special. It is harder to screw the puops up, it will go farther with a less than great trainer. Most importantly, whoever works one of these pups will forever more be unhappy with anything less because they will realize the difference between really good/great vs marginal. I think the reason so many are happy with marginal dogs is that they have never worked a good, solid one.


Gotta agree with you on this one Don!


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> My previous dog was great dog at I got him at 8 weeks by16 weeks we new he was something special. His breeder wanted him back and offered to buy me any dog I wanted if they could have him back.
> I sorta thought my Jett might be a great one it turns out hes what I would call a really good one.


That sorta sounded shitty, I should say Ill take 'really good ones" till the day I die most people only dream of having a dog like Jett 
Cant say it wouldn't be nice to get another go around with a great one.=P~


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> But the training is still an important part of what the dog will be, if you start at a few months or a year of age ?
> 
> Pups are staked out to watch the adults working in many videos, that's still training..might be passive but it's still training.


The 3 dogs mentioned in the beginning of the thread never been staked out. We usually don´t stake out.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hi Selena,
About how many puppies in your average litter are suitable for police k9 work?


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Anne Jones said:


> Very, very, true. It is what has perpetuated the decline in really good working GSDs for sure. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to find really outdstanding pups.
> 
> Some of the GSD breeders that I know, are breeding 'lesser' dogs & less litters, because they can't always find good working homes for pups. Even the lower drive pups, from good working litters, are often hard to place....the normal family finds many of even these dogs 'too much' to live with. It's a shame.


Anne I agree. You just touched on a big part of the problem as I see it. The general public or regular dog owner cannot deal with a normal dog much less a high drive working dog. As a whole working dog people are very few relative to the number of dogs being produced.


----------



## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Anne Jones*  
_Very, very, true. It is what has perpetuated the decline in really good working GSDs for sure. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to find really outdstanding pups. _

_Some of the GSD breeders that I know, are breeding 'lesser' dogs & less litters, because they can't always find good working homes for pups. Even the lower drive pups, from good working litters, are often hard to place....the normal family finds many of even these dogs 'too much' to live with. It's a shame._

*Sounds like a good excuse to breed bad dogs. the hard thing is that people first must know the difference between a trash, normal ,good and perfect one. how many breeders are honestly about there own dogs.about mistakes in breeding. how many breeders gave a female after two years away,not a lot, because they have spend money in her and want it now back.so she must produce puppys. breed her to famous males and sell puppys. but the true is out of an farm horse you do not produce a kenntuky derby winner.*

*good females produce work able puppys,the rest is a big thing from growing ,training and experince.*

*the real dogs find later the right handler,like nick,olex ,tyson,sid,greg and lot more*


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

The lines are also often blurred to what a working dog is. 

Working dogs in many situations double as PETS...once you bring a dog into the house with people, other pets, and children, this really has a huge influence on the traits that dog can have. 

A working dog living safely in a kennel and coming out to "work", can be a much different type of dog, than a "working"dog living in a house with children and doing everyday "pet" things, as well as working.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The "special" pup that you see at 5 weeks that is going into a heavily trained venue is still special. It is harder to screw the puops up, it will go farther with a less than great trainer. Most importantly, whoever works one of these pups will forever more be unhappy with anything less because they will realize the difference between really good/great vs marginal. I think the reason so many are happy with marginal dogs is that they have never worked a good, solid one.


Damn Don your in my head on this thread!! Right on the money...


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

For me, my male pups D'Only and Dexter were difficult, high drive, spirited, very forward puppies..not easy, but extreme. They were special from the start. I have much less experience than those across the pond and have had of course less chance to see as many pups growing up..but, have seen some. 

Regarding the females, I've found it more difficult to be sure at the start. I've kept "special" female puppies, to later discard as they mature. Not sure if others have experienced the same situation..?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oh yes, I have come to that conclusion also Debbie....and it isn't just with dogs. LOL I can think of two female puppies that I thought I hit the mother lode with...Tigger and Goldie. They were tough as nails even as 5 and 6 week old pups. Even the top males had their hands full as these two females would go head to head with them. I kept them both of course and as they matured, you couldn't tell the difference between them and the big males. Both had male heads and were built like the males. Both had one litter at 2 years old and never produced another pup. They just had too much teststerone. I even started a thread about this a few years ago. You seldom hear me talking about the great females. Female pups seem to change back and forth on a daily basis starting when thy can walk, but, by 8 weeks they seen to have reach some stability.


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

haha Don...very funny about bitches! :lol:

My best producing females were not the extreme "male-fems", but the strong, confident and most stable females. Many of the high drive competition females that go toe-toe with the males were better suited for the field than the whelping box by my experience.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My biggest fault is that I look at production first. I am good at picking dogs to fit the person, always have been. I would say that I am not as good at picking out the phenoms simply because I have not seen nearly as many as I have just good dogs that will do the job.
> 
> Years ago, with a different breed, I did a good job of making an overall stronger dog. Then, I found out that people THINK they want this type of dog, but reality is that they want a dog that does the job.
> 
> ...




Ive wondered at times if its like comparing cars. A working GSD might be like having a Camaro, people would feel like they have a fast car and brag about driving/racing/etc....

But then a Spike/Arko/etc dog would be like having a Formula 1 race car. If a regular person that got one they would likely kill themselves or someone else....

But then again...Ive heard people claim some of the hardest/best dogs they've seen were great with the family, etc....so maybe not


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> The lines are also often blurred to what a working dog is.
> 
> Working dogs in many situations double as PETS...once you bring a dog into the house with people, other pets, and children, this really has a huge influence on the traits that dog can have.
> 
> A working dog living safely in a kennel and coming out to "work", can be a much different type of dog, than a "working"dog living in a house with children and doing everyday "pet" things, as well as working.



looks like a good distinction, sometimes when people are debating it seems like they are talking about (those) two different things

dick and seleena have talked about never having their dogs around the kids, a lot of people here prob assume they will be house/pet dogs too


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Yes, there can be a great working dog in the same litter as pet working dogs.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Hi Selena,
> About how many puppies in your average litter are suitable for police k9 work?


When they leave at 7 wks, in principle all of the litter...what people make of them or not, makes that after 3 yrs 75/100 % is suitable as working dog, the ones who stay here in Holland and are trained in KNPV end up as PSD or in security.

Not much of dogs of our breeding live in the house, the few who are, are with people living alone, or families with adult kids.

Living in the house brings a lot of rules, accept stranges, kids friends etc, and on the other hand you want a bite machine... Rintintin doesn't exsist....
A few of our dogs could live in the house, some certainly aren;t suited for the house.


----------



## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen;260652... Rintintin doesn't exsist....
[/QUOTE said:


> Funny you should say that, because I've often thought that myself.
> I told myself from the beginning, I would rather have a dog that I know will bite and that goes in a kennel when company comes over, rather than a dog that I'm not sure if they would do the job.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yes, there can be a great working dog in the same litter as pet working dogs.


I more meant that to more and more people it appears that a great working dog must also be able to fit into a household family situation, that this quality is part of being a great working dog to a lot of people. 

That being a good pet is somehow a requisite for being a good working animal.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I think a "well balanced" dog can do well at both but maybe it is a breed thing. I don't consider many of the dogs I read about as being well balanced. Some, traits are far over exaggerated....but that is what people have been led to believe is a good thing. When specific traits are bred to the point of being "over exaggerated" the dog is not balanced. Breeding a dog to have strong, dependable traits to have strong traits is not the same as breeding dogs to have obsessive traits.


----------



## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think a "well balanced" dog can do well at both but maybe it is a breed thing. I don't consider many of the dogs I read about as being well balanced. Some, traits are far over exaggerated....but that is what people have been led to believe is a good thing. When specific traits are bred to the point of being "over exaggerated" the dog is not balanced. Breeding a dog to have strong, dependable traits to have strong traits is not the same as breeding dogs to have obsessive traits.


 
Couldn't agree more, creating dogs that are exaggerated in one area may be great for a specific venue and they maybe considered great in those circles but the truly great dog has "Balance" and is great in all areas and most importantly family/ pack orientated IMO. A dog heavily bread for one or two specific traits is far from balanced and isn't great unless its in all areas not just high drive and bites shit real good after specific training for many years.
GREAT is 100% subjective, like I mentioned in another thread one persons cream in a breeding program may be crap in another's program. If your working with a specific line you will notice consistencies in regards to certain dogs in a litter simply by knowing your own dogs and what the line produces, certain personalities that may seem like nothing to the unknowing person but you've seen this before in previous pups and know what the potential will be especially if your line is consistent in major factors like athletic ability, drive, intelligence, etc...when the major traits are consistent then you can focus on the fine details that create the special dogs and hopefully recreate these dogs consistently but this requires focus and raising the bar higher then what is considered "Great" by the average person with so called "Working Dogs".
A great trainer can make the average dog seem great, a great dog can make any trainer seem great, when that great dog is gone then that average trainer realizes he wasn't as great as the dog made him seem. The truly great dog transcends the training IMO and it's apparent unless he is matched with a truly great trainer then you really have something great. But the reality is greatness starts with genetics not training, a great dog is like a diamond in the rough a trainer can come along and work it polish it but never can claim to make it what it is. He can also do the same with a piece of glass or cheap stone but only the great ones will withstand true pressure and still shine because they were great before they learned their first command and received their shiny exterior that most confuse with greatness. Too many confuse a title and good hips with being a Great dog, when it equates to great training and being breed worthy at the most IMO.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Valente said:


> Couldn't agree more, creating dogs that are exaggerated in one area may be great for a specific venue and they maybe considered great in those circles but the truly great dog has "Balance" and is great in all areas and most importantly family/ pack orientated IMO.


So lets say the goal is to produce a great dual purpose type police dog, and you produce a dog that is not suitable to be kept in a household loose like a pet with the wife and kids and friends, but works like a machine in the parameters of his job doing scent and apprehension work? 

How does that dog rate?


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> So lets say the goal is to produce a great dual purpose type police dog, and you produce a dog that is not suitable to be kept in a household loose like a pet with the wife and kids and friends, but works like a machine in the parameters of his job doing scent and apprehension work?
> 
> How does that dog rate?


Thats the ideal working dog to me. If I a want a pet surely an airedale or a pit would suffice


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

To myself, a great working dog has a threefold purpose suitable for sport/work/family. It needs enough motivational desire to excel in competitive sport, enough courage to engage a real threatening circumstance with no hesitation, and a proper social disposition to safely serve as a family companion in a relaxed environment.

I know a lot of working homes don't require much emphasis on the third point, and that may be a prime reason why the working crowd have isolated themselves from the general public. I think there could be more developing interest in working dogs, if the social liability was of less concern. There's no reason to believe that a great working dog NEEDS to be without good social disposition. There's no reason to believe that social aggression NEEDS to be _dangerous to everyone_. 

I have such a dog, whose willingness is aimed at my interest, whose judgement I trust. I would consider him low threshold or "sharp", but in a clearheaded manner, and controllable of his own drives _(by learning process)_. His offspring have been entirely another matter, good for work or sport, their aggression is strong, but easily misappropriated and resolute above any level of physical correction. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's appearant to me that upbringing could not have changed this.

All other merits aside, I'm not very thrilled with that type of dog. _Hardness_ doesn't have to mean less willing or _stubborn_, although it often does, and I think that's the key difference between him and his pups. Their self interest is greater than their direct interest in pleasing me.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> So lets say the goal is to produce a great dual purpose type police dog, and you produce a dog that is not suitable to be kept in a household loose like a pet with the wife and kids and friends, but works like a machine in the parameters of his job doing scent and apprehension work?
> 
> How does that dog rate?


If it works good as a PSD it's a good PSD . PSDs are tools not pets . Most of our PSDs in my unit and that we train for other units happen to be good at home too . But it doesn't matter . If it makes a good PSD but is one of the few that isn't social around the home then the handler has to use care with that dog at home . Kennel , crate , monitor , whatever . The important thing is the work , it's not meant to be a pet .


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> If it works good as a PSD it's a good PSD . PSDs are tools not pets . Most of our PSDs in my unit and that we train for other units happen to be good at home too . But it doesn't matter . If it makes a good PSD but is one of the few that isn't social around the home then the handler has to use care with that dog at home . Kennel , crate , monitor , whatever . The important thing is the work , it's not meant to be a pet .


This goes back to my point...


Joby Becker said:


> The lines are also often blurred to what a *working dog* is.


 I don't think it is the intentions of breeders to produce traits that will make dogs that have great difficulties in a family home as "working" pets, it just comes with breeding for other traits sometimes, that are more important to the work.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Thats the ideal working dog to me. If I a want a pet surely an airedale or a pit would suffice


LOLThat's a cop out Will. I have run into some nice GSD's over the years that were as stable as could be but would eat you with one word from the owner. One of them was the nicest dog I have seen. A guy had it in a bar....huge GSD. Dog was an absolute sweetheart. Guy told me to move over by the door and raise my voice to him. He said something in German to the dog and the dog drug him off the bar stool trying to get to me. Gave the dog another command and he transformed back to a sweetheart. Nice balanced dog.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOLThat's a cop out Will. I have run into some nice GSD's over the years that were as stable as could be but would eat you with one word from the owner. One of them was the nicest dog I have seen. A guy had it in a bar....huge GSD. Dog was an absolute sweetheart. Guy told me to move over by the door and raise my voice to him. He said something in German to the dog and the dog drug him off the bar stool trying to get to me. Gave the dog another command and he transformed back to a sweetheart. Nice balanced dog.


So how was that dog's , tracking , detection work , area searches , article searching and criminal apprehension ?


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

A great police dog is very simple to define, a great sport dog, much more subjective.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOLThat's a cop out Will. I have run into some nice GSD's over the years that were as stable as could be but would eat you with one word from the owner. One of them was the nicest dog I have seen. A guy had it in a bar....huge GSD. Dog was an absolute sweetheart. Guy told me to move over by the door and raise my voice to him. He said something in German to the dog and the dog drug him off the bar stool trying to get to me. Gave the dog another command and he transformed back to a sweetheart. Nice balanced dog.


That dog sounds like it could be a good, easily managed, personal protection animal/ pet that responds to an open threat, social and will protect its owner....whether it has the qualities to work as a multi-purpose Police type dog, or has any kind of drive to work for 8-10-12 hours a day is the unknown question...


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Being a pet or social is no breeding goal for us.
If they are, OK, if they don`t, OK either...
It is not an issue for us. Altough most of them are not...

So if I understand correctly, that means they (most dogs out of our bloodline) are not great working dogs in the American way of thinking. Spike, Rocky, Robbie, Wibo, Bor, Nika, Pebbles, were/are not social as being menthioned. They were/are one-man dogs, no pets as discribed above.
Tommy (Rob Luijken), a Rocky-son and great producer of working dogs, isn´t also. He has very much the traits of his father...

Conclusion to this topic; So I don´t think my/our opinion matters in if you can see special traits in a litter to see a great working dog prospect...:razz: 

Dick


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Being a pet or social is no breeding goal for us.
> If they are, OK, if they don`t, OK either...
> It is not an issue for us. Altough most of them are not...
> 
> ...


Please don't take what some of us Americans say as speaking for all of us . Like I said earlier a good PSD is a good PSD it doesn't matter what kind of dog it is at home as long as it does it job as a PSD .


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Please don't take what some of us Americans say as speaking for all of us . Like I said earlier a good PSD is a good PSD it doesn't matter what kind of dog it is at home as long as it does it job as a PSD .


I understand, Jim.
I just want to make people THINK.. and maybe show why native US breeding programs fail (so far). Even when `good blood` is brought in from Europe for several years now....

By the way, the dogs I mentioned are the base of our breeding program and great producers in `our book`. So no wonder most of our bred dogs are not the social kind either...

Dick


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I understand, Jim.
> I just want to make people THINK.. and maybe show why native US breeding programs fail (so far). Even when `good blood` is brought in from Europe for several years now....
> 
> By the way, the dogs I mentioned are the base of our breeding program and great producers in `our book`. So no wonder most of our bred dogs are not the social kind either...
> ...


Dick, if the dog is meant to be a KNPV career sport dog, is that different in regards as one meant to be a working police K9 in your culture? in regards to this aspect of doubling as a family dog? or is it mostly the same?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Dick, if the dog is meant to be a KNPV career sport dog, is that different in regards as one meant to be a working police K9 in your culture? in regards to this aspect of doubling as a family dog? or is it mostly the same?


In our opinion KNPV and police K9 should be the same, because its the original goal of KNPV.
I should add that there are more people than before here over the pond also, who think KNPV more out of a `sporty` kind of vieuw. 
There has been a change of karakter in the KNPV/type of dog over the last years. Not always for the good in my opinion. The more willing, easy-to-train kind.
In the path followed the last years we `lost`the original special type of dogs KNPV-dogs were in the past. Those are the dogs KNPV made name with. The `sporty`ones are just one-of-a-kind, you come across all over the world and are not all that special. (but easy to sell](*,))

We want/like to follow the original type of dogs in our breeding-program. Not always the easiest dogs in training, but a dog I can go into a barbrawl with and `takes` a hit over the head with a bottle or barchair and get just angry over that....:mrgreen:

Dick


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> In our opinion KNPV and police K9 should be the same, because its the original goal of KNPV.
> I should add that there are more people than before here over the pond also, who think KNPV more out of a `sporty` kind of vieuw.
> There has been a change of karakter in the KNPV/type of dog over the last years. Not always for the good in my opinion. The more willing, easy-to-train kind.
> In the path followed the last years we `lost`the original special type of dogs KNPV-dogs were in the past. Those are the dogs KNPV made name with. The `sporty`ones are just one-of-a-kind, you come across all over the world and are not all that special. (but easy to sell](*,))
> ...


Thanks Selena,
This is one of the reasons KNPV continues to produce some of the best dogs, because these guys know that extreme doesn't always produce extreme. Not all arko sons are extreme, those good to average will be used as security/police dogs, the few extreme ones are the ones they breed. Dogs like aron and amigo von bracheler see were extreme and they produced many good dogs, not all of them were breeding quality, the few ones like eick were supposed to be bred.
I doubt any good working dog program will lack pet quality dogs. That is not what we are breeding for.


----------



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I more meant that to more and more people it appears that a great working dog must also be able to fit into a household family situation, that this quality is part of being a great working dog to a lot of people.
> 
> That being a good pet is somehow a requisite for being a good working animal.


I understood what you meant about what the public saying. I should of left off the word "yes" in my sentence. I see the confusion. No, a pet is different than a great working dog imo.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I understand, Jim.
> I just want to make people THINK.. and maybe show why native US breeding programs fail (so far). Even when `good blood` is brought in from Europe for several years now....
> 
> By the way, the dogs I mentioned are the base of our breeding program and great producers in `our book`. So no wonder most of our bred dogs are not the social kind either...
> ...


I'm having no trouble producing antisocial dogs, just saying that puts them one mark short of "great" or "special" in my book. That, and their lack of an "off switch". At least somebody has use for a dog like that, whether I care to or not. I'm pretty sure it it's in the dog's breeding, more than upbringing, that makes the difference.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Not always the easiest dogs in training, but a dog I can go into a barbrawl with and `takes` a hit over the head with a bottle or barchair and get just angry over that....:mrgreen:
> 
> Dick


 I can see that for sure!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I can see that for sure!


Me to with mine. Some dogs aim to please some will shit on you if you let them.:smile:


----------



## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

@Oluwatobi Odunuga

Amigo have live more than 2 years with me.he was a extrem player,good agrressions in protection,but best friend from my family and friends.he was real social with all animals and all what happend around him.(Forma) Eicks mother was the diffrent,she have stay during the mating with amigo five days at my house and was real antisocial.

amigo was a proud male,stalion typ,in my opinion only this kind of males can produce good dogs


----------



## Brian Batchelder (Mar 11, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> That dog sounds like it could be a good, easily managed, personal protection animal/ pet that responds to an open threat, social and will protect its owner....whether it has the qualities to work as a multi-purpose Police type dog, or has any kind of drive to work for 8-10-12 hours a day is the unknown question...


Police dogs work for 8 hours per day?  I thought they rode around in the back of a car a lot of the time. Maybe I was mistaken.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Being a pet or social is no breeding goal for us.
> If they are, OK, if they don`t, OK either...
> It is not an issue for us. Altough most of them are not...
> 
> ...



nope, they would all be good working dogs by American thinking, its just that some people also require the separate social trait...

like a soldier or cop that was very good at what they do, having a charming/friendly personality has nothing to do with their ability to do their job well, but for some situations the social aspect would be preferred or required

The american view would be that there are good working dogs that are social, and good working dogs that are not social.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Brian Batchelder said:


> Police dogs work for 8 hours per day?  I thought they rode around in the back of a car a lot of the time. Maybe I was mistaken.




the police dont want a chainsaw in their back seat that they have to get out and start up, they want one that is already running and comes flying out when they open the door


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> The american view would be that there are good working dogs that are social, and good working dogs that are not social.


Very well put.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

(thanks)


The next thing I would wonder is why americans think the social aspect is more important than countries with a better working dog tradition.


Is the 'pet aspect' more of a tradition here, with pure working dog owners (hunters, herders, etc) being a small minority? So an anti-social dog is going to be more likely to stand out as non-typical?

And arent americans more likely to have 1-2 dogs so they have more invested in them individually, and will also be more likely to have the dog its entire life, so being social has a greater impact?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> the police dont want a chainsaw in their back seat that they have to get out and start up, they want one that is already running and comes flying out when they open the door


Sorry if I were a cop it would start when the mic is keyed its game on, other wise STFU


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> @Oluwatobi Odunuga
> 
> Amigo have live more than 2 years with me.he was a extrem player,good agrressions in protection,but best friend from my family and friends.he was real social with all animals and all what happend around him.(Forma) Eicks mother was the diffrent,she have stay during the mating with amigo five days at my house and was real antisocial.
> 
> amigo was a proud male,stalion typ,in my opinion only this kind of males can produce good dogs


Thanks Stefan,
I heard amigo produced more police type dogs than aron, is that why aron was bred to more bitches?


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think Aron lived a lot longer.


----------



## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Amigo have make his first litter real late. aron started his mating early because of the bite attack against lueneberg.a lot of people believe that agrression out of no reason is a great thing,but most time that comes out of be unsafe.they grow up in that. amigo was the oposit of aron. also during stud he was diffrent. aron tried a lot of time to atack the female close to end of the stud.amigo was more gentelman,he was in love with all 

what is a police dog??? diffrent countries have diffrent minds about a k9, a real k9 is something special and only one out of 100 is good enough for that. you see it when they must work on real difficult areas and grounds. most dogs are looking real well on a field but if you bring then in dark room they forget to work,same with other grounds or in buildings,stairs,metall grounds and other stuff.you can not train that.it is genetic.


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

your second paragraph is on the money stefan


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Amigo have make his first litter real late. aron started his mating early because of the bite attack against lueneberg.a lot of people believe that agrression out of no reason is a great thing,but most time that comes out of be unsafe.they grow up in that. amigo was the oposit of aron. also during stud he was diffrent. aron tried a lot of time to atack the female close to end of the stud.amigo was more gentelman,he was in love with all
> 
> what is a police dog??? diffrent countries have diffrent minds about a k9, a real k9 is something special and only one out of 100 is good enough for that. you see it when they must work on real difficult areas and grounds. most dogs are looking real well on a field but if you bring then in dark room they forget to work,same with other grounds or in buildings,stairs,metall grounds and other stuff.you can not train that.it is genetic.


Thanks Stefan,
Do you have any amigo sons in your kennel, all the dogs on your website are Asko von der lutter progeny.
If you are not exaggerating then that is really scary, when i say police dog i mean a dog that will track all weather, go into weird places to apprehend suspects and hold its bite until its physically impossible to do so and not as a result of 'pain-compliance'. If indeed only 1 of 100 dogs were good for k9 work, we'd need a lot of litters to supply the large number of k9 departments.
Please explain your version of a police k9.


----------



## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM

that is also a police dog,you think there is only one like that in police work. they train all time on suits and sleves and for sure they all look great in training.but to make a bite on naked meet is something else.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks Stefan,
I agree that many police patrol k9 prospects may not naturally want to fight a man on their initial apprehensions, but if a dog has good prey drive on the suit, good muzzle work and fails initially on the street but later improves i think its still ok to call it a good police dog. Many good dogs i think just need a few live apprehensions, extra training and the finished product is acceptable.
The owner of the dog in the video you mentioned admitted there were training probloms but stated that that same dog made apprehensions later. I also saw a video of his brother a long time ago btiting a protester in the UK doing a riot.
I think dogs that just need extra training, exposure are not necessarily BAD dogs, what's your opinion?


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I watched that video a few posts above and saw this one off to the side (k9 bites college football player)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpfyIaS6wE&feature=related


----------



## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think many of the great dogs would show some signs as young puppies The easiest i guess would be prey drive, a puppy that would grip the sleeve at 9weeks, dominate other puppies, be really possesive of prey items etc would give breeders signs that they have a superb pup.
> 
> @jeff,* i have been thinking about what you said about people seeing average dogs as superb or not wanting extreme dogs and i think the GSD has many of such unforunately some are breeders, they use average dogs as stud dogs ad the progeny just keep getting worse,we dont see too many yoschy, nick type dogs around. it seems many of the ple with malis are generally pple that love/can handle high drive dogs. *What do you think?


Understand where youre coming from ,but I wonder many writes that gsd breeders bred average dogsnot dogs that are exeptionell or exstreme .but what are a good working gsd ???+

that is difficult to say because breeders have different opinions on what they think is a good dog or average as you wrote.

What is a good working gsd that you should breed, and traits do this dog have that many others does not???


----------



## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Amigo have make his first litter real late. aron started his mating early because of the bite attack against lueneberg.a lot of people believe that agrression out of no reason is a great thing,but most time that comes out of be unsafe.they grow up in that. amigo was the oposit of aron. also during stud he was diffrent. aron tried a lot of time to atack the female close to end of the stud.amigo was more gentelman,he was in love with all
> 
> what is a police dog??? diffrent countries have diffrent minds about a k9, a real k9 is something special and only one out of 100 is good enough for that.* you see it when they must work on real difficult areas and grounds. most dogs are looking real well on a field but if you bring then in dark room they forget to work,same with other grounds or in buildings,stairs,metall grounds and other stuff.you can not train that.it is genetic.*




I must agree with you on that, I have trouble finding a good gsd that can do the work regardless of its a dark room or stairs or something and I believe youre right its genetic, but if you only breed Schh titled dogs they never test theese traits in dogs so how will breeders know if the dog can work in everything you put them in????

many gsd breeders only relie on the Schh titles and does not put enough pressure on the dogs to test them and if they still want to do the work sorry but true


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

milder batmusen said:


> [/B]
> 
> I must agree with you on that, I have trouble finding a good gsd that can do the work regardless of its a dark room or stairs or something and I believe youre right its genetic, but if you only breed Schh titled dogs they never test theese traits in dogs so how will breeders know if the dog can work in everything you put them in????
> 
> many gsd breeders only relie on the Schh titles and does not put enough pressure on the dogs to test them and if they still want to do the work sorry but true


There's no problem with breeding only shutzhund titiled dogs. The important thing is not to look at scores but at the dog's temperament. There are many things that only the breeder/handler will know about a dog, a dog that is superb on the training field but has environmenal issues can easily be bred and many times this is the case. It is only if breeders are honest and will assess dogs temperament in total not just crazy prey drive, etc but other equally important things. Many people that train shutzhund add environmental stress like working in water, doing the revier in unfamiliar places etc, things that can test the dogs nerves.


----------



## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> There's no problem with breeding only shutzhund titiled dogs. The important thing is not to look at scores but at the dog's temperament. There are many things that only the breeder/handler will know about a dog, a dog that is superb on the training field but has environmenal issues can easily be bred and many times this is the case. It is only if breeders are honest and will assess dogs temperament in total not just crazy prey drive, etc but other equally important things. Many people that train shutzhund add environmental stress like working in water, doing the revier in unfamiliar places etc, things that can test the dogs nerves.




I Denmark many breeders only use studs because of there point not what the dog can do outside the field.

I do think that many dogs lack of enough preydrive and focuss on to much prey aggresion


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

The "special pup" that prompted me to create this thread is now 11 weeks old.............


----------



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Amigo have make his first litter real late. aron started his mating early because of the bite attack against lueneberg.a lot of people believe that agrression out of no reason is a great thing,but most time that comes out of be unsafe.they grow up in that. amigo was the oposit of aron. also during stud he was diffrent. aron tried a lot of time to atack the female close to end of the stud.amigo was more gentelman,he was in love with all
> 
> what is a police dog??? diffrent countries have diffrent minds about a k9, a real k9 is something special and only one out of 100 is good enough for that. you see it when they must work on real difficult areas and grounds. most dogs are looking real well on a field but if you bring then in dark room they forget to work,same with other grounds or in buildings,stairs,metall grounds and other stuff.you can not train that.it is genetic.


Yeah, I know that police dogs in Germany are tested like that and if they showed any weakness they brought them back to the breeder and the dog was washed out before he even got into the training. 

I have a young bitch that is superb in anything she does. She has no issues working around different grounds, metal surfaces, cattle grid... dark rooms, you name it. She's a very nice bitch and I was lucky to get her. 

She was the last one out of her litter. I was told that the last pup is the last pup for a reason, turns out I couldn't have gotten a better dog. She's everything I wanted and looked for.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Looks like a great dane pup in that photo. Hope it turns out to be a great dog for you. You said it was a female last time, or were you ****ing with someone ?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> To myself, a great working dog has a threefold purpose suitable for sport/work/family. It needs enough motivational desire to excel in competitive sport, enough courage to engage a real threatening circumstance with no hesitation, and a proper social disposition to safely serve as a family companion in a relaxed environment.
> 
> I know a lot of working homes don't require much emphasis on the third point, and that may be a prime reason why the working crowd have isolated themselves from the general public. I think there could be more developing interest in working dogs, if the social liability was of less concern. There's no reason to believe that a great working dog NEEDS to be without good social disposition. There's no reason to believe that social aggression NEEDS to be _dangerous to everyone_.
> 
> ...


So if he didn't reproduce his temperament/mental package, where is it coming from? If its the litter I'm thinking of, they didn't get it from their mother either?

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Low thresholds are great, as long as equiped with a clear head, which would help facilitate willingness, confidence, and ability to supress and abate a particular drive once engaged.

All three pups were rather sharp, less clear headed (less able to perceive a lack of threat) and with no off switch. Not avoidant, all pups tenaciously aggressive, focused and determined to "put on the hurt". Also significantly less tractable to the handler than their sire is. Altenatively, strong physical correction would only succeed in escalating that drive, heightening that determination.

It's the combination of the two parent's temperament _components_, both parents in question are fine individually. Mother has some degree of difficulty focusing outside of or interrupting her drives, and no off swith to speak of. Not as magnificently biddable, in a prompt and eager manner. As fair as the specific breed pairing goes, she would IMO be considered the weak link.

I wouldn't expect temperament to be a whole "packaged" gift to offspring from one parent or the other, but if there's enough similarity between parents, it may seem that way at times, or if one parent's compliment is particularly favored dominant for expression.


----------



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Looks like a great dane pup in that photo. Hope it turns out to be a great dog for you. You said it was a female last time, or were you ****ing with someone ?


Huh? Are you talking to me? Or the person above me.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Talking to Drew, unless your pup looks like a great dane as well. :-D


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

nope she really is a female jeff, but she's gonna be one of those rare testosterone laden females with the cinderblock head and overtly muscular physique, she was the freak of the litter pretty much from the day they hit the ground

she definately has the genetic potential to hit an adult fighting weight of 80lbs on my diet, as far as the drives, environmentals, etc, this pup is uncharted waters for me, I've never had one even remotely close to this, gonna be a trip to see this one develop


----------



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Talking to Drew, unless your pup looks like a great dane as well. :-D


Nope, mine don't look like a great dane, they are the most beautiful and gorgeous shepherds ever but we are watching one for our friends. So we do have one...


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

4 months


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Thats a fine looking animal... Best of luck!


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Great to me is how he produces.


 
Does this apply to people too?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How are your kids Chris ?? LOL

No, I am not Hitler, no interest in going there.


----------



## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

I found this thread very interesting; but had to stop half way through to figure something out.

What is "work" to a dog and its handler?

Police, military, SAR, bomb, narcotic detection, compound guard, personal protection in a high risk neighbourhood, herding daily, lifestock guardian 24-7, vermin riddance, hunt for sustenance, these to me seem to be "working" situations.

At that point; can the dog be determined as a pup to be appropriate in "drives" to fulfill its intended job?

As for Schutzhund, KNPV, French Ring et al. are these not simply methods of training and evaluation? Should these methods of training and evaluation (competition) not simply be used to create/evaluate a dog that is suitable for the above "real" job venues?

I seemed to get stuck somewhere in the middle of the thread; where people were talking about working dogs and Schutzhund in the same sentence; where I thought Schutzhund was a method of training/evaluation.

As for dogs being "social" and working in the above venues; meh; not like it matters to me whether the police officer with his canine lets him hang out with his kids; as far as I'm concerned it's like his gun and his car. If these are department issue; I -- the taxpayer -- own these pieces of equipment; and as a taxpayer; I expect the equipment (with due diligence and care) to perform as needed when needed. So no I don't feel that police dogs need to be social -- as someone mentioned above; some are, some aren't; as long as they do the job they are "paid" for; no worries. However, retiring of the equipment (dog in this case) does seem to leave some issues on the table; and I'm guessing a dog that is not so hair-trigger and is a bit clear-headed socially; would be here on this earth a bit longer than the all-work, no-play counterpart.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Sider said:


> As for dogs being "social" and working in the above venues; meh; not like it matters to me whether the police officer with his canine lets him hang out with his kids; as far as I'm concerned it's like his gun and his car. If these are department issue;* I -- the taxpayer -- own these pieces of equipment; *and as a taxpayer; I expect the equipment (with due diligence and care) to perform as needed when needed


That's pretty funny.


----------



## Lenn Heafey (Feb 12, 2011)

IMO I think that a "special" pup that has amazing attributes can still turn out to be an average adult dog, I think it really depends on how that "special" pup is raised, socialized, ect, you may have the best pup in the world but one negative experience biting as a pup may put the dog off from biting all together.


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Just about 18 weeks, now pushing 40lbs, this was supposed to be a conformation shot but it fails to accurately convey what I wanted, right now she's built, looks and moves more feline than canine











PS: Lenn, thats a swing and a miss, try again.....


----------



## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

Hey Gerry; funny, ha,ha. My trainer mentioned that to me (otherwise I wouldn't have thought a whole lot about it); she helps train/proof the K-9s and is fond of mentioning to them how much we pay in taxes to have a police force. Paying for 3 police forces doesn't make me feel so bad; when she gets the contract for dogs.


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

This is one of her littermates, also a female>>>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3aQj-8p990&feature=related


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Drew, if you want to show off the dog in a picture, get down to the level of the dog. Never take the picture looking down at them.


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

in theory your correct, but when I kneel down shes on me like a greyhound on a rabbit, so I gotta do the best I can, catching her holding still for a second is like waiting to see a shooting star


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I know what you arem talking about, Drew. Most of my puppy pictures are looking down because I have to run from them and when I stop I don't have time to stoop down, because they are all on me. LOL So I get a lot of crappy pictures shooting straight down while they are all pulling on my pants. Damned dogs.


----------



## Lenn Heafey (Feb 12, 2011)

I acquired this pup from a breeder in Alberta, I bought her because of the pray drive she has, she has a great grip, and is very persistent compared to the other pups in her litter. We did a puppy pray test at a new location so they wouldn't have the confidence of there own home to influence them. Compared to the other pups in her litter I consider her a "special" pup. I think that with the proper guidance and training she will be an amazing working dog. By proper guidance I am referring to being raised as a working dog in a working home, not a working dog in a pet home. In this picture she is 8 weeks 4 days old.


----------

