# Hmmm. There is death in my future....



## Kat Hunsecker

Cross training one of my girls for SAR. I thought area Search would be great for her. 
She took to the finds well, when we went out for our first runaways...
But yesterday she abandoned the run to the victim not even 10 yards away. 
She turned the opposite direction. turned out there was an HRD source planted.
she honed in on it. Absolutely no doubt. We hid it again, and she went for it again...
Then brake and another session later... No doubt she has a natural draw to it....


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## Joby Becker

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Cross training one of my girls for SAR. I thought area Search would be great for her.
> She took to the finds well, when we went out for our first runaways...
> But yesterday she abandoned the run to the victim not even 10 yards away.
> She turned the opposite direction. turned out there was an HRD source planted.
> she honed in on it. Absolutely no doubt. We hid it again, and she went for it again...
> Then brake and another session later... No doubt she has a natural draw to it....


it was human?


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## Kat Hunsecker

HRD( human remains detection) source....
So yes it was human.


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## Brian Anderson

Kat you gotta know when I read your title I had to do a double take lol ... HR work is a skill unto itself ... I cant really comment much on the topic as my experience is limited at best in this area of the work. But I do enjoy reading the comments and posts. Best of luck in your endeavor with your dog ... I have always questioned myself as to if I have the fortitude to deal with what could be on the end of the track.


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## Joby Becker

Kat Hunsecker said:


> HRD( human remains detection) source....
> So yes it was human.


gotcha...

I know what HRD means. was just wondering if it was a verified HRD HIDE or source, thats all.. and not just some bones laying around...


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## Kat Hunsecker

Brian Anderson said:


> Kat you gotta know when I read your title I had to do a double take lol ... HR work is a skill unto itself ... I cant really comment much on the topic as my experience is limited at best in this area of the work. But I do enjoy reading the comments and posts. Best of luck in your endeavor with your dog ... I have always questioned myself as to if I have the fortitude to deal with what could be on the end of the track.


Yeah... I kept a good sense of humor with this.
To be honest I was playing with the idea for a while. I had two SAR area search dogs. I had a bit of HRD source around, played with it with two dogs but seemed they weren't too interested in, and I know the best ones will show you right away.
I never seriously pursued the training, just was playing with it. 
This particular girl I had never really exposed to it or attempted to do HRD.
I know she has great nose and at this point it is more then difficult to pursue IPO with her on a regular basis, but I still would like her to have a job, as she really wants to have one. So I started going to a local SAR group. Very nice crew!
and the way she was drawn to it, there is no doubt she has a natural tendency to gravitate to it. So of course I was wondering what would happen if I really get exposed to a live find. I saw dead people. And I bet in all seriousness it is not a fun business. But I only can hope I can stomach what is coming at us. I guess we'll find out. I love doing SAR, prefer wilderness area Search though. But when I started going I went well knowing that she (the dog) will decide which route we will go at the end. 
And short of hitting me with a 2x4, I think she was clear about the HRD...lol


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## Kat Hunsecker

Joby Becker said:


> gotcha...
> 
> I know what HRD means. was just wondering if it was a verified HRD HIDE or source, thats all.. and not just some bones laying around...


Yes, it was, this source was planted for a different dog to work. We just happened to walk in the area to set her up for a nice air scent game. I did not know there was source planted, I chose the different terrain for my dog to change it up from the open field run aways...
We lived in the woods, she has been around all sorts of carcasses, yeah some interest, but I never saw anything like it. For her IPO tracking, she tracked within 20 yards of a yummy smelling deer carcass and never missed a beat. 
Of course once she is further along, we will have to proof her. To make sure... 
But the week prior she circled an area, and chewed on vegetation in the area of a buried source. (Buried longer time) . The TD at the SAR group pointed out there is HRD buried, and often dogs chew on vegetation around, but at this point I was still skeptical, since occasionally they just like to chew grass, it could have been it was very tasty stuff over there... Hindsight 20:20, yes there is a high probability that she chose this particular spot because of the source planted.... there was plenty other vegetation around to eat, she went out of her way....


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## mel boschwitz

I prefer trailing but one of my trailers did something similar. He's since been switched over. 

I'm used to seeing dead bodies so it's a non issue for me. 
But I still prefer trailing.

But welcome to the dead club. Lol


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## Joby Becker

I smell dead people.........


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## mel boschwitz

Joby Becker said:


> I smell dead people.........


Joby, perhaps we need to harness you up?! \\/


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## Nancy Jocoy

You know, I have seen a number of dead people and it still is not a non issue for me......not if they still have faces; I remember those and it still bothers me a bit. 

If they are very far gone, not so much. I am thankful I have not encountered a dead child yet though we have been on a search concerning one and that alone was tough enough on all of us.

I just think that what we are doing is a good thing and that their essence is no longer in what is left on earth.


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## Kat Hunsecker

mel boschwitz said:


> Joby, perhaps we need to harness you up?! \\/


I want video...lol


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## Kat Hunsecker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You know, I have seen a number of dead people and it still is not a non issue for me......not if they still have faces; I remember those and it still bothers me a bit.
> 
> If they are very far gone, not so much. I am thankful I have not encountered a dead child yet though we have been on a search concerning one and that alone was tough enough on all of us.
> 
> I just think that what we are doing is a good thing and that their essence is no longer in what is left on earth.


 Yes, I saw a few, I remember vivid when I was in my really early Teens I saw a person lifted of a tree by the police... You don't forget....
It is a good thing to do, not an easy thing I know. But if my girls skill/nose can bring closure...


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## Bob Scott

The drowning victims are the pits if they've been in for a while but the kids rip you heart out. 
I've seen two and I hope to never see another.
The best scenario in the world is to get a call for a lost child, drive a couple of hours and then get called off before you get there because the child turned up alive and well. 
On the alert. The team I was on went to the Body Farm in Knoxville and there were a couple of other groups were there also. 
One fast and hard driving Golden did a flying down alert....right on top of one of the "occupants" of the yard. 
I was training an Aussy at the time and she freaked out with the full bodies. Great on partial and bones though.


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## Jim Delbridge

17 years ago when I was told my dog liked human remains a lot more than live humans, I went through lots of internal debate. I'm a death investigator now(some ten years) and told that I'm definitely a twisted individual. I've taken many forensic college courses since then and determined that I'm pretty much the right person for this line of work.

So be vewwy scared and look before you step out into that crevice of life. Taphonomy is part of the life cycle and every once in a while you can help family move on or put a bad guy away.

Jim Delbridge


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## Kat Hunsecker

Bob Scott said:


> The drowning victims are the pits if they've been in for a while but the kids rip you heart out.
> I've seen two and I hope to never see another.
> The best scenario in the world is to get a call for a lost child, drive a couple of hours and then get called off before you get there because the child turned up alive and well.
> On the alert. The team I was on went to the Body Farm in Knoxville and there were a couple of other groups were there also.
> One fast and hard driving Golden did a flying down alert....right on top of one of the "occupants" of the yard.
> I was training an Aussy at the time and she freaked out with the full bodies. Great on partial and bones though.


 Most of the calls we got in my old group so far , the people appeared before we got here or before they mobilized us. My old group is also right now fixing to help look for a missing woman... missing since the flood in the area.... wish I could go help look. They had multiple volunteers out, by foot horseback... nothing ,yet. she is now believed to have drowned...

The body farm would be something I would want to try out a bit further down the road... 
I bet the full body can be equally confusing alone by scent emission like large amounts of drugs... not to speak of the sight of a full dead body....


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## Kat Hunsecker

Jim Delbridge said:


> 17 years ago when I was told my dog liked human remains a lot more than live humans, I went through lots of internal debate. I'm a death investigator now(some ten years) and told that I'm definitely a twisted individual. I've taken many forensic college courses since then and determined that I'm pretty much the right person for this line of work.
> 
> So be vewwy scared and look before you step out into that crevice of life. Taphonomy is part of the life cycle and every once in a while you can help family move on or put a bad guy away.
> 
> Jim Delbridge


 Scared... terrified...lol How deep can I sink... my husband told me repeatedly I scare him, when I talk about obtaining source.. in multiple different ways.... 
Joke aside... I'll follow my gut- and my dog.... It always proofed to be a good thing! Even if the road was more than rocky at the end, I excelled and enjoyed what my dogs pushed me to do...


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## Nancy Jocoy

First you have to get him to buy into getting the freezer. .


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## Kat Hunsecker

ROFL.... he is looking all ready..... I bet he will make sure it's not big enough for a complete body lol


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## Sarah Platts

Kat Hunsecker said:


> ..... I bet he will make sure it's not big enough for a complete body lol


That's o.k. You can cut them into smaller pieces. 8)

But seriously, if you store in jars or PVC pipes that stuff takes up room so don't get too small. I have stuff in jars/pipes that are packaged up and chucked into the freezer after sessions. And I have trays of jars stacked up on one whole side, full ammo cans on the other, and big stuff in the middle. So I can just reach in and drag out an ammo can that already contains a spread of samples. 

Better a little bigger so you can add to the library as time goes on.


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## Sarah Platts

All this talk of freezers got me thinking. I'm going to put a jug of distilled water in the freezer and let it freeze and absorb odors. Should be able to put it out this winter in a pile of snow or ice for a scent source or even this summer if I want a change of pace. In theory, even after it melts there should still be faint trace odor remaining where it melted. Hmmmm......


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## Bob Scott

Between the rodents for snake food and the HR no one would dare look in my basement freezer. 
Only rodents now.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I don't store anything in pvc...decompression is in glass..dry bone kept separate as it soaks up odors..in kraft paper bag or box

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## Nancy Jocoy

Sorry on phone....autocorrect....decomp..not decompression

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## Bob Scott

had to scratch my head a bit before I read your second post. :grin:


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## Kat Hunsecker

No freezer, yet. only cooler... a bit placenta.... but we'll see ia ammo box and some PVC tubes, mason jars.... we are working on it... lol

When you burry some stuff, in what container is i9t best to burry in?


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## Jim Delbridge

Not to complicate your world, but a lot of groups feel confident when their dog successfully identifies fresh placenta. A decomposing body can put off more than 478 different chemicals in its decomposition cycle. There are a lot of theories on which ones the dog identify. What we really ask the best dogs to do is interpolate between sources we've trained them on. Rarely are the remains we search for going to be an exact match of what you trained on. So, you want to create a collection of decomposition windows from fresh to stored in barrels without air for "a vewwy long time." (careful as my sick puppies think this is the best stuff to roll in.) I create this by putting some fresh remains in a sterile paint can and only training on it from time to time. If the seal isn't good, the decomposition gas can blow the lid off. 
Basically, I've taught the HR food groups are tissue, adipose, neural tissue(nerves/brain), blood(a special source with so many nuances to deal with), bones&teeth - can combinations of all of the above.
While there is lots of attitude against training on hair, my dogs have made L.E. happy many times by finding hair on a scene. I don't train on it specifically now, but realize that human hair is collected to for oil slicks as it will absorb oil. Adipose tissue is basically an oil as it liquifies, so hair in a source container can prevent losing it (such as in water work).

We can buy historic level bone on the internet legally, but greasy bone tends to require special connects or relaxed laws. You can make a greasy bone by saturating a historic level bone in adipose and tissue decomp. You can start training on it greasy and then let nature dry it out such that you get the different stages that nature provides.

Oh, and on the last seminar I attended, my dog had the unique feature of not only not being afraid of bear scent, but we found him rolling gaily in bear scat the instructor provided. My only thought is that he wanted to go through the forest strutting, "I'm a BEAR! Beware! I'm a Bear!"....only an airedale would come up with such an idea.

Good luck,

Jim


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## Sarah Platts

I bury in suet cages for the most part or mason jars with ventilated caps (aka holes drilled into the screwed on lids). If you are leaving out anything buried for any time frame (even over night) consider what wildlife is out there and what's the risk of something snacking on your material. 
If a big risk then you need to make sure that if something digs your stuff up they can't run off with it. Nothing breaks the heart faster than coming back to work a problem and finding nothing but the dug up hole. Use wire or some kind of light, linked chain and secure it to something that can't be carried away like heavy tree roots or run it to the trunk of a tree.
Placenta's nice but it rots away pretty fast since there is no muscle mass or bone. If you have other cadaver dog folks in the area start calling them up and offer to train with them. It can take years to build up a scent library (aka lots of dead stuff in various states of decomp) and you want to expose your dog to as much a range as possible.


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## Kat Hunsecker

I know, I need more.. I had a decent stash before I moved. this SAR group I am with ahs a nice variety, I hope to get more teeth soon. I have stuff that is various years old, but not with me. I left it with my old group, thought I wouldn't need it anytime soon, but they had use for it. Now I have to rebuilt the stash. But I can use source from the SAR group. Placenta and one more blood/ tissue sample is all I have at home right now... Might take me a couple of dentist trips again...lol

I buried stuff in mason jars before... but am always in for new ideas...


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