# Maturity and Introduction of Stress/Defense



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

What signs let you know that your young PPD/PSD prospect is ready to encounter stress and begin working in defense in its bitework? I have my own thoughts (unlike me to have an opinion, eh? LOL!) but I'd like to get some input from all of you. Thanks.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Patrick hey buddy.
Age is not an indicator only maturity. You can test it but not to heavily. Take your time and don't set your dog back. It's like eating an elephant, little piece at a time. Hope this helps.


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## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

It's funny that you are asking this question because I was about to ask the same thing.
I have a 6 1/2 month old GSD and at home or when she is out for a walk she is very protective and civil,but when we are on the training field it's like she knows it's a game and she is 100% prey.
Is this alright or should I be doing something different????


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

I start all my dogs in defense so it's not a question of introducing it. If they respond then I keep working with them. If they don't then I wait. The first session is not so stressful that if the dog is not ready to begin it will affect him negatively. This is not to say that there is no prey element in the work. But I always aim to keep the dog focused on the man not the equipment. There is no specific age for this. With some dogs it can be started at less than a year, others two years and yet others never. The escalation of pressure is something that is particular to every dog.

I am well aware of the methods of bite work development in prey and the introduction of pressure later on. But this is the personal protection sub forum not SCH or ringsport. Again there is a strong element of prey in defensive training if it is done correctly. The problem is that there are not many decoys that know how to do this without messing up the dog. Prey training is much more forgiving but I find that the dogs many times end up locked in prey or at the least lack the trigger which is absolutely necessary for a PPD.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's just great, 6 1/2 month in prey is perfect. Don't put defence in till much later then only when she can handle it.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

If you realy know what you are doing you can start introducing environmental and physical stressors from when they are puppies, a little bit at a time. 

There are some amazing puppy videos floating on the web where young pups are learning to deal with stress....most are ring videos.... all are total wins for the pup.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

interesting replies... as expected with a quesion like this. But no specific indicators, I guess? Just try them and see how they fare.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Ted White said:


> interesting replies... as expected with a quesion like this. But no specific indicators


 This is the art of the agitator. It is hard to describe what to look for.

What you don't want to see is avoidance behavior. If you see avoidance then you messed up and pushed the dog too much. Avoidance can take different forms. Watch the eyes of the dog, the ears, the tail, and overall body language.

What you do want to see is forward aggression or the beginnings of it. This is what you build on. An ideal situation is no avoidance and a gradual increase of aggression. You respond to the display of aggression letting the dog know that he won. Either by running away or diminishing your presence, or crying out. As long as this continues and the dogs intensity increases every time then you're doing fine.

The tricky part is that some dogs do not respond to certain levels of threat. At that point the decoy has to make a decision to increase the pressure. This will bring some dogs out but may also push them into avoidance. My feeling is that if the dog is 2 years old and not coming out, I will pressure him until he does or goes into avoidance. If he does go into avoidance I will never agitate this dog again as he is not strong enough for the work.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Very well put David. That's it in a nutshell.


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## brian ward (Oct 25, 2007)

From what I’ve seen personally, defensive behavior and “fear biting” are to completely different things. With that said if you push a pup too far too fast they’ll become fear biters and you’ll run into issues previously stated "avoidance” and also possibly aggression towards the handler and this will eventually lead into social issues, to be positive watch the body language and beware of any type of behavior that seems like “cowarding” down from a decoy. The goal is progression not regression, and if you instill a cowarding behavior within a couple sessions it could take months to undo the damage done, but use your sixth sense to guide you on how far to push the dog… but honestly I don’t put dogs in the defensive, I personally feel doing so will put the dog in a react or loose situation, if the dog reacts in a positive bite and out response with CONFIDENCE, then job well done, but if it goes the other way then you might run into a whole mess of problems….. from what I’ve learned, it’s better to produce a confident “take over the world” dog utilizing civil drive. If any one disagrees or might thinks my opinions are somewhat left of center please send me a message, I’ve only done this for seven years and would like to hear input.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Let's say a young dog shows "justified" aggression toward an "intruder" and moves forward, growling and being alert. Might this be evidence that the dog is maturing in its defensive drive?


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm not sure what you mean by justified. This is exactly what I want to see in a dog that I'm working.

Or are you saying that the dog shows this behavior in a normal situation like when you take it for a walk? If so you can't really take advantage of it unless the intruder really reacts in fear. Are you asking if this is a sign that the dog can start real civil work?

There is no harm in starting this work with your dog. You just have to decide what you're trying to achieve with your dog. Once you decide that your objective is real civil work then you just start. The decoy needs to do the reading. You don't need to wait for the dog to "mature in its defensive drive". The dogs drive becomes stronger as he goes through the training, and as it gets older. The key is just not to overpower the dog. Obedience is also very important so you can guide the dog if it reacts aggressively at the wrong time.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks David. By "justified" I mean that the dog isn't acting aggressive out of fear or for no good reason. For example, let's say the dog is barking out the window at strange man walking into the handler's front yard. Alerting and displaying some signs of aggression would indicate to me that the dog is showing some maturity and might indicate (along with other evidence as plenty of dogs look and act ferocious from the safety of their living room) that the dog is ready for an appropriate amount of "stress". 

I was originally sort of curious as to what types of behaviors or signs or cues a dog might display that would indicate that it's ready to step up. Maybe my question is a little convoluded


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

As a decoy I will tell you this. If your dog reacted like that at my first approach I'd breath a sigh of relief knowing that my work will be that much easier. That right there is something for me to work with and build on.

I would not however necessarily wait for you to tell me that the dog is doing this at home as a sign to start the training and make that first approach. Although it is a good sign. It is the decoy's responsibility to behave in such a way as to draw this from the dog. Showing the dog a side of human behavior that it may never have seen before.

If you were to tell me though that your dog is doing this at home. Taking into consideration that the dog his stronger on his own turf. I would say that it's likely he will react the same way in the first agitation session which should be done in a place other than the home.

Whether the dog will develop into a strong fighter is another matter altogether.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I will agree with David that the dog will be more confident at home, this does not mean he will be that way in another place. You can test this BUT don't go too far. You don't want to set him back from where he is now. It will take much longer to get him back to where he is now IF he ever comes back. Take it a little step at a time.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Barking out the window could also be nothing more then barrier aggression. That may or may not transfer to defense work. Many dogs will raise hell behind their own fence, in a car, in a crate,etc but show no aggression outside that situation.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> I start all my dogs in defense so it's not a question of introducing it..


I saw in the other thread that you are a Rottie person. Are you talking about Rottie's here, or do you start Mal's and GSD's in defense too?

It's funny, I have seen very little defense work being done in Belgium, and the PSD's I've come accross in Europe are great dogs all started in one of the ring sports. A common explanation I have heard from quite a few people on this side of the pond is "Defense stems from fear and self preservation, choosing a dog that bites in prey and fights out of the desire to dominate the opponent makes for a more confident dog". Perhaps PPD trainers like the defensive aggression because it looks intimidating to ward off would-be attackers? Where a PSD should just bite what he is told to bite and doesn't need the big threat display.


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Mike,
You hit it on the nail!
Getting a dog in defence drive is not something you start at a given time. You build the dog into his/her drives and if all is done correctly it will be a progression. Often handlers try to bypass the early drive building (play and Prey) to get into the more aggressive behaviour. There are several exercise you can do to test the different drives, but they need to be build in order.
I think a 6 month old pup is unlikely to be ready, i suspect it still has plenty work to do in the other drives as well as obedience. Confidence building is critical to prepare the dog for more stressful training. As the dog gets more confident in what it does, it will be more prepared to protect.
Robert


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I saw in the other thread that you are a Rottie person. Are you talking about Rottie's here, or do you start Mal's and GSD's in defense too?
> 
> It's funny, I have seen very little defense work being done in Belgium, and the PSD's I've come accross in Europe are great dogs all started in one of the ring sports. A common explanation I have heard from quite a few people on this side of the pond is "Defense stems from fear and self preservation, choosing a dog that bites in prey and fights out of the desire to dominate the opponent makes for a more confident dog". Perhaps PPD trainers like the defensive aggression because it looks intimidating to ward off would-be attackers? Where a PSD should just bite what he is told to bite and doesn't need the big threat display.


I have never been part of a club, SCH or ring. I did run a training center, obedience, problem behavior correction and guard dog training. As I matured with the work I felt a responsibility to the client, especially to those that really needed the security of a dog. Even though I could make some dogs that didn't have the juice pass for guard dogs using prey training I wouldn't do it. I would tell the customer "your dog is not capable of this work, if you have a real need you should consider getting another". I did start all the dogs in "defense", whatever the breed. There are a few reasons for this and here we can really get into training philosophy but I'll just state one which is probably the fundamental reason. If a dog does not possess in his genetic makeup a strong defensive element then he is no good for the work. It is a lot of lost time and effort to train in prey only to find this out later on. Also, lets say that you know for a fact the dog is genetically capable of strong defensive work, still IMO it will be counter productive to start it in prey. Remember we are talking about guard dogs, dogs that need most often to decide on their own when it's time to turn on the aggression. Defense provides the trigger. Later yet I realized that there are levels of defense, not all people can handle a real man stopper. For those people a barking or a threat dog would be sufficient. This too is not achieved through prey training.

I see a problem with the terms we as trainers use to talk about our dogs. The word defense or defensive is one of them. I do not want a defensive dog in the literal sense but when I talk about training I have no choice but to use the word. What I want as a finished dog is an aggressive dog or a dog that has aggression. When I try to describe how this kind of dog appears I'd say that he wants to clobber the bad guy. He is not telling the bad guy to "keep his distance" with defensive (here's that word again) barking, nor is his barking alert barking saying "dad, there's something over here you need to know about". He is saying "Oh, just let me get close enough, I will punish you so hard you will never be able to pose a threat again".

This state or motivation in the dog is achieved through a true meshing of prey and defense. There is a strong prey element in this work. But the dogs prey drive is not directed at the equipment, it is directed at the man. A dog that bites equipment in prey is not seeking to dominate the man, he is seeking to take away the equipment, this is most evident when the dog starts pulling away while holding on to the equipment.

I feel that a PP dog's job is more complicated than a PSD's.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree somewhat with David.....at least moreso than anyone else that has posted. There is no reason to even use the terms prey or defense in training or otherwise for true PPDs. People that really know what they are doing will start pups biting and recognizing a threat...call it what you want...it is for real. There is far more that goes into a true PPd than most people would like to believe. Sport training has no place in that type of work whatsoever.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

So what does one need to do to get banned from this joke forum?

Connie, you’re a freakin’ schitzo, I understand this usually happens after menopause.

Bob Scott, you’re a whiny girlie man.

David Frost, Tim Martens, you remind me of that scene in Men in black where J gets selected out of a group state produced automatons.

Mike Schoonbrood, did you start this forum? I guess you did it to learn something, keep going baby!

What all of you have in common that you know shit about dogs, yet you don’t let anyone’s voice but your own be heard.

To the silent majority.. you should speak up. These clowns are nobodies without the stage you provide for them.

BTW Berraco is the Cuban name for triggerfish, one that I like to hunt.

http://aycu30.webshots.com/image/39189/2001532974285302167_rs.jpg

Ciao sapingos.


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> Ciao sapingos.



GOOD RIDDANCE !!!!!!

That fish must have been poisened for somebody to get so high, so quick.
I guess there's always some.........:twisted: :roll: [-X

Robert


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jerry said it, age is no indicator of maturity. Mals mature faster than many breeds. Why put stress on a young dog or puppy. We test all the time in America and train very little. Think about it. Everytime we turn around we are "testing" our dogs. Training should be 95% and testing 5%. Let stress come as the puppy/young dog can handle it...looks, longer time on the sleeve before slips, body contact, etc.


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