# Costs and pricing



## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

I am wondering amongst working dog trainers, what the general going rate for training is? How much would you charge if I sent you a 9 month old GSD puppy and asked you to take 6-8 months and train it for protection (obedience and all of course, the whole shuh-bang) or until the dog is finished?

Thanks!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

$800 a month.

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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

800.00. per month. Board and train.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

My two cents...cost doesn't matter. If you don't have the time or inclination to train your protection dog? Don't buy one.
I'm not talking about getting help training your dog. I'm talking about sending off a dog for someone else to train.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> My two cents...cost doesn't matter. If you don't have the time or inclination to train your protection dog? Don't buy one.
> I'm not talking about getting help training your dog. I'm talking about sending off a dog for someone else to train.


+1


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think even a better question would be How do you pick a trainer that you would be comfortable sending your dog to. PPD "trainers" being the top of my list of folks that don't have a clue. Not all of course. 8-[ :twisted:
Other then that I have to add a +2 on to Thomas's post.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> My two cents...cost doesn't matter. If you don't have the time or inclination to train your protection dog? Don't buy one.
> I'm not talking about getting help training your dog. I'm talking about sending off a dog for someone else to train.


I ask because a new client owns a large working dog kennel and just had a litter of 9 pups, so he has no time to run his kennel and train his puppies. He wants to send one to me to train so he can sell it down the line. I am all over taking the dog in for training, but i don't know what to charge for it. So cost definitely matters because I can't afford to train the dog for free.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> I think even a better question would be How do you pick a trainer that you would be comfortable sending your dog to. PPD "trainers" being the top of my list of folks that don't have a clue. Not all of course. 8-[ :twisted:
> Other then that I have to add a +2 on to Thomas's post.


I am a PPD trainer and I definitely agree with you, most trainers don't have a clue. Lucky that's not the situation here and I am not trying to figure out who to send my dog to. I am on the receiving end of the dog. Which is why I want to get ideas on what to charge.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I would suggest he pay a flat rate for actual results (i.e. titles) and not per month. I know too many trainers who charge 'per month' and then sit the dog in a kennel for months on end without ever doing anything with it. 

When I was doing sport training for people I was charging per title at a flat rate. To me it was the ethical thing to do but in the end, I was traveling several times a week and paying for field fees and putting my own dogs on the back burner and I ended up making significantly less than what I would have made on a regular pet dog board and train. 

JMO but it doesn't make sense from the breeder's perspective to pay someone very much for training at all unless it comes with titles that will significantly increase the value of the dog. A trained dog is only going for 2-5K so if he's paying even $800/month for training, he's going to end up losing money and is better off just selling the dog as a puppy.

All around it sounds like a losing proposition for both parties but thats JMO. If your going to do it, guarantee a certain result and a flat rate for that result. And definitely get a contract with everything in writing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Bird dog trainers usually train for results. Generally they will give you a time schedule on how long is required to keep the dog to get those results.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Dana McMahan said:


> I would suggest he pay a flat rate for actual results (i.e. titles) and not per month. I know too many trainers who charge 'per month' and then sit the dog in a kennel for months on end without ever doing anything with it.
> 
> When I was doing sport training for people I was charging per title at a flat rate. To me it was the ethical thing to do but in the end, I was traveling several times a week and paying for field fees and putting my own dogs on the back burner and I ended up making significantly less than what I would have made on a regular pet dog board and train.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I really appreciate the input. I was also thinking about charging for "levels" of training. Level 1 is basic on leash obedience and barking on command. Level 2 would be basic obedience on and off leash and basic protection training. Level 3 is more advanced and Level 4 is the finished dog, and pricing it based on what level he wants me to bring the dog to. For that, I am not sure on what to charge either.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Beth Koenig said:


> Thank you, I really appreciate the input. I was also thinking about charging for "levels" of training. Level 1 is basic on leash obedience and barking on command. Level 2 would be basic obedience on and off leash and basic protection training. Level 3 is more advanced and Level 4 is the finished dog, and pricing it based on what level he wants me to bring the dog to. For that, I am not sure on what to charge either.


Beth this is the approach I use. It works and is performance based. The client can see exactly what they are getting for their money. The amount depends on the market you are in and the ability of the client to pay.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Beth Koenig said:


> I ask because a new client owns a large working dog kennel and just had a litter of 9 pups, so he has no time to run his kennel and train his puppies. He wants to send one to me to train so he can sell it down the line. I am all over taking the dog in for training, but i don't know what to charge for it. So cost definitely matters because I can't afford to train the dog for free.


If your client doesn't have time to train 9 pups then he shouldn't try
If they have a decent pedigree then why not just sell the puppies at 8 weeks? If I were you, I'd definitely go with a pay per title/level. It looks like a sure money loser for the breeder to pay for training and try to recoup his investment on a sale.
If you decide to take on the project? Hopefully it works out for you at least


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

IMO this is a bad idea all the way around. If your client pays you a flat fee for a title, say 3000 and I think that's on the high end for an entry level title, you are going to screw yourself. He sends you the pup, you can't even title it in most venues until it's at least 12 months old, that means 10 months or more of board and train for 3000 which is a maximum of 300 per month for you. Not worth it IMO.

If you charge 800 per month, once again you have the pup for at least 10 months, now the client is paying a minimum of 8000 for an entry level title. Once again, not worth it.

These types of numbers are one reason I don't bother to hold back pups to raise and train for resale. It makes sense if you are doing it in quantity, and it's your job, but frankly I already have a full time job and I value my free time way to much to keep a pup I could have sold at 8 weeks for 1000, raise and train it up until 12 months, then sell it for around 4000, assuming everything goes well with the pup as it matures. 

Your client would be better off just selling the pup now. If they really wanted to send it out for training/titles they should keep it until it's 8-10 months old, having you only take it occasionally for a little foundation, and then let you have it for a couple of months to prep for trial. But since they don't have time to raise a pup and run a business, it doesn't sound like they have the time to do this, so they should just sell it now.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> IMO this is a bad idea all the way around. If your client pays you a flat fee for a title, say 3000 and I think that's on the high end for an entry level title, you are going to screw yourself. He sends you the pup, you can't even title it in most venues until it's at least 12 months old, that means 10 months or more of board and train for 3000 which is a maximum of 300 per month for you. Not worth it IMO.
> 
> If you charge 800 per month, once again you have the pup for at least 10 months, now the client is paying a minimum of 8000 for an entry level title. Once again, not worth it.
> 
> ...


+ 1


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I didnt see anything about training the dog for sport... my reference was to putting together a PP dog to whatever level of training required by the client.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Brian Anderson said:


> I didnt see anything about training the dog for sport... my reference was to putting together a PP dog to whatever level of training required by the client.


I don't remember when titles came into the discussion, but either way I think my concerns would be valid. I don't believe you can have a full trained protection dog until the dog is mentally and physically mature, so the 12+ months still come into play, and for some breeds it's a lot longer than that.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Why charge a flat rate per title when all dogs are not equally talented? Why should the owner of the super talented dog that gets trained in a few months pay the same amount as the person with a less talented dog that takes a year? 

Those of you that say that they should train their own dog are totally missing the point. If they could train their own dog then they would not pay someone else to do it. Also I think it's not always a mathematical equation of training and the perceived worth of the dog. Some people like *their dog *and want *their dog* protection trained. They don't give a shit about the final market worth of the dog post training, they just want *their dog* trained. And to them, their dog is worth a million bucks. I think sometimes we in the dog game tend to forget that 99% of the dogs in this world are pets. 

Lastly, I run a dog training *business *not a charity. And it is bad business to go into a contract where there is a good chance that I can lose money.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Chris, I get what you're saying that to some one the training of the dog could be priceless, but in this case: 



Beth Koenig said:


> He wants to send one to me to train so he can sell it down the line.


What I would also consider Beth is, considering it sounds like you will not really make money off of this, at the most your expenses will be covered (possibly not all), is there added indirect value for you to do this that could make it worth while? i.e. having it on your resume that you trained/titled this dog for him or that you're associated with his kennel in this manner. Otherwise this sounds like it would be more of a hobby venture and could be fun if you have nothing better to do with your time. 

Do you have faith that this pup can even be trained to the level he is expecting? Do you get to pick which pup from this litter gets this training? Does he have realistic expectations or could this become a total mess a few months down the road that you will wish you never considered?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't remember when titles came into the discussion, but either way I think my concerns would be valid. I don't believe you can have a full trained protection dog until the dog is mentally and physically mature, so the 12+ months still come into play, and for some breeds it's a lot longer than that.



Best answer!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Beth 
you haven't been specific as to what this guy wants ... except to sell it later
has he told you how he wants to market the dog ?
as a titled sport dog or a PPD ? ...huge difference there
or does he care as long as he can sell it ? 

imo, not very many dogs can be trained in PPD (from how i view a PPD), altho one can "train" it with that pipe dream in mind 

you arer a PPD trainer but i have no idea what your program looks like, but i also think there is a huge difference even in the foundation work if the dog is to be a PPD and that should start at a young age

if he wants sport titles there is also the travel and expenses to consider and who knows how much trial time it will take ... mucho unknowns there

imo stick to basic OB and forget either PPD or titles ... great OB never screws up a good dog for more advanced work imo and it is easy to obtain clear results and VERY easy to sell the dog to anyone after that has been polished and proofed ... and by basic, i'm not just referring to sits/downs/stands and heeling 
...and i would also make the owner put in some face time on a regular basis .... i never board and train a dog for an extended time with no owner interest involved no matter what excuse they dream up


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

It seems to me the question falls into the same old ppd BS, 'any dog can be 'trained'' to within the ppd criteria.
To a certain level, yes. Let's say, all (most) dogs can be trained to bark at an alarming situation.
But when talking about a true ppd, doesn't it come down to just how far the dog (or trainer) can extend the inherent abilities of the raw product you have in hand? 

The first thing I'd do is charge a flat fee to evaluate the prospective candidate, then starting from there give an estimate (in it's broadest terms) on what can be expected of the finished end.

Be prepared to reject any dogs that cannot possibly attain the expections of whomever is your patron happens to be at the moment.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the acceptable "level" of PPD training will be up to the buyer not the trainer ... who doesn't exist .... so how would you have any idea of the PPD level to train it ? 
seems like a TOTAL crapshoot imo
plus there are FAR fewer prospective PPD buyers than there would be buyers who want a well trained highly obedient .... dog

... still no brainer to me

example : how many dogs can you find to buy that are "turnkey" OFF lead OB trained dogs ?
...not many ... they would be worth a much higher price and be VERY marketable 

plus you should also consider that mature dogs are harder to sell/move than young pups .... UNLESS they come equipped with polished OB 

so Beth, what kinda "trained" dog does the guy really want ... to sell later ???
...i'll bet he doesn't know and is leaving that small detail up to you


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Well, there you go. You hit the nail squarely on head.

Just WHAT is being trained to? Just what are the limitations of the prospect in front of you? 
Pricing for the foundation work toward a hoped for resaults and what the finishing cost will vary widely from dog to dog. Particualarly when talking about ppd's.

Is the contract for what? 
Build a foundation for a green dog?
Make something out of something not there?
Take a 10 week pup not of your choosing and make a ppd out of it sometime in the next three plus years? (and echoing Thomas in respect to ppd's, this is all without the primary owner/handler envolved!!!?? wtf!)

Outside the cost of the initial evaluation of the pup/dog in front of you (be honest!), all bets are off thereafter enre to time and effort involved. The dog comes along toward purpose at it's own pace.

Rick has condensed the question very clearly.
Just what is being asked for and expected in the training?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Randy Allen said:


> Rick has condensed the question very clearly.
> Just what is being asked for and expected in the training?


It doesn't matter to me. I get paid for my time. 

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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Beth.

What age will the dog be sold at, and for approximately what price...

Are you talking functional Protection through adulthood, or imprinting a puppy for sport or otherwise to be sold at a younger age..say 1 year

what exactly are you going to do with the dog, and is it being kennel kept or living in your home...?

lots of variables for me...

800-1000 a month seems fair to me, for a dog you can get stuff done with...young adult-adult...puppy could be a different arrangement all together...

sorry if I missed it...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

LOL...

got caught up in the thread and did not read the OP that carefully...

9 months old...for the whole deal? would still want to here defined goals but 800-1000 still seems fair to me..if there is a fair amount of training involved.....unless it was for a close friend or partner that might be some sort of split....


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I also think the majority of the money on a board and train is not the training. It's the Boarding, the cleaning of waste, kennel cleaning, consumables used to clean and care for the dog, feeding the dog. 

And Training a dog compared to the work to care for it is not all that much. 

I could see getting some guarntee that the dog is going to get so many times a month or something. But results based payment also is not going to fair well for the buyer. I think many trainers will find the fastest way from point A to B. Which most likely will be shitting training. I can make my dog look like a finished perfect dog with a pinch and e-collar on, but getting that shit to stick takes time and thought. I think the good in people have. Is that if your in the working dog circle, it's not hard to hear about who produces dogs with quality training and who does not. 

Also, I have seen dogs sent to professional dog trainers, who have outright told the owners in clear english there is absolutley no way the dog is going to preform the work they want....and the owner keeps sending a check.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I know of trainers in Europe that will train a dog for level three title plus FH & korung for $12000. Thats a dog with talent. Now here in California someone offered to train a dog to a level 1for $6000 saying it's the going rate!!! If I take a dog to train on a board basis, it's [email protected] day and I think I'm on the low side in my area. But I rarely will do that as the client will never get from the dog what I will. Thus is never happy so I train the owner showing them what the dog can and how to get that from the dog better for the dog and client. Now someone I think Brian mentioned it's what area you live in what is charged. Keeping someone else's dog is huge responsibility, but it can be a living.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Thanks so much guys for the input!! I have a clearer understanding now as to how to price this. I also have more information about everything as I was misinformed but now I understand the situation better. There will be no scores or titling the dog, and it will be a personal owner buying the dog from a breeder. The owner does not live near me but his good friend does so he is thinking to send the dog to his good friend (my neighbor) . So I do not have to charge boarding fees, just strictly training fees. I think I will charge monthly, and add more and more to the dog each month as the dog can handle it, and the owner can decide when is the dog is good enough for him. But a dog that young in age I wouldn't eve start in true protection work, just teaching him how to bite and targeting, and waiting to put pressure on the dog until he is older.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Wow u guys are doing well, 800-1000 a month for 3 years to train a dog for no clear aim, cf that to a race horse or greyhound trainer who fully expects the animal to rake in big dollars by 2yo.

No wonder the US pet industry is well, an industry!!!

I can import a sch III dog with stupid levels of quarrantine for less than this guy is willing to train a prospect for.

Take the guys money Beth and show him whatever he thinks he wants to see.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Wow u guys are doing well, 800-1000 a month for 3 years to train a dog for no clear aim, cf that to a race horse or greyhound trainer who fully expects the animal to rake in big dollars by 2yo.
> 
> No wonder the US pet industry is well, an industry!!!
> 
> ...



Haha thanks Peter. But I will need to have a discussion with him when he is ready to find out exactly what he is looking for so I can aim for that goal. I could take the money and trin the dog for a year and purposely train him slowly for more money.... But eh, as an aspiring trainer,I want to be as honest as I can be and gain a reputation not only for dedication to the dogs' trainings, but for honesty as well, someone people know they can trust completely.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Beth cant I steal some of them fancy lines for the 'about us' section of my training facility website.

'someone you can know and trust...completely'

K&T kennels.

Nice ring to it.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

Beth Koenig said:


> I am a PPD trainer and I definitely agree with you, most trainers don't have a clue. Lucky that's not the situation here and I am not trying to figure out who to send my dog to. I am on the receiving end of the dog. Which is why I want to get ideas on what to charge.


Beth, 15 years go I sent my pet hound to a board and train facility in Northern California which cost me 1200-1500 for a month. For basic obedience.
From a business prospective, figure out the cost to you for doing the work and a reasonable profit. Then check what the market bears and find a happy place.
Example, $10K market rate for finished dog.
Price of pup was $2K...
How much work/how many hours will it take to have a reliable PPD?
What is your time worth an hour?
What will it cost you to board the dog?
As you are only a link in the chain, $8k is not going to happen. You didn't do the work in making the sale.

Hope this helps, don't sell yourself short, but don't out -price yourself. Do not lose money!


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Gotta chime in, again.

Most people have an out-sized expection of a ppd.

Either the dog is so reactive as to be a danger to the community at large or the dog is to be a entity within it's own regard and with the means to reach it's own conclusions ( which is completely unrealistic).

Both extremes are not what the ppd dog represent imho.

You can check with people that actually train ppd's easily enough. But to me ppd's are trained to a fairly narrow criteria. ie., it's important to know just what exactly the handlers concern is.
Without that list of concerns a blank slate is impossible to estimate.


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