# Belgian/French/Mondio/KNPV/IPO mal line differences?



## Bernt Lundby

There are of course large individual differences within IPO and various ring lines, but is there a consistent tendency of the lines being different such as the following? Not sayiing any one line is better, but breeding for different purposes. 

*IPO/Sch lines:* A bit sharp (defence) for intensity in the hold/bark and a bit of a nerve for precision in obedience. Pullers rather than pushers into the bite. Low treshold.

*French ring lines:* Smaller dogs doing very fast turns stemming from the decoy not using accessories and doing lots of esquives. Not always full bites, but hanging on. Low threshold.

*Belgian ring lines:* Heavier, harder dogs being extremly insensitive to accessories/environmental stimuli. Pushers into the bite. Perhaps not as agile as the other ring lines since the decoy relies more on accessories and less speed. High threshold.

*Mondioring "lines":* Not yet real lines independent of FR and BR lines. Both are used or mixes of the two. Pushers, perhaps the ideal is something in between the FR and BR lines? High threshold.

*KNPV lines:* Hard dogs having to be able to survive the various beatings they get during KNPV training and competition. A lot of emphasis on the courage test and little on accessories and speed, decoys are not working as hard to outmanouver the dog (no esquives etc). Medium threshold.

This is based on what I have heard in Scandinavia and in Belgium. I have had a IPO line mal that fits the profile and my new BR line (FCI and NVBK) mal is very different (female though) and fits the BR profile. Is there some agreement on this, or am I way off?


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## Christopher Jones

Bernt Lundby said:


> There are of course large individual differences within IPO and various ring lines, but is there a consistent tendency of the lines being different such as the following? Not sayiing any one line is better, but breeding for different purposes.
> 
> *IPO/Sch lines:* A bit sharp (defence) for intensity in the hold/bark and a bit of a nerve for precision in obedience. Pullers rather than pushers into the bite. Low treshold.
> 
> *French ring lines:* Smaller dogs doing very fast turns stemming from the decoy not using accessories and doing lots of esquives. Not always full bites, but hanging on. Low threshold.
> 
> *Belgian ring lines:* Heavier, harder dogs being extremly insensitive to accessories/environmental stimuli. Pushers into the bite. Perhaps not as agile as the other ring lines since the decoy relies more on accessories and less speed. High threshold.
> 
> *Mondioring "lines":* Not yet real lines independent of FR and BR lines. Both are used or mixes of the two. Pushers, perhaps the ideal is something in between the FR and BR lines? High threshold.
> 
> *KNPV lines:* Hard dogs having to be able to survive the various beatings they get during KNPV training and competition. A lot of emphasis on the courage test and little on accessories and speed, decoys are not working as hard to outmanouver the dog (no esquives etc). Medium threshold.
> 
> This is based on what I have heard in Scandinavia and in Belgium. I have had a IPO line mal that fits the profile and my new BR line (FCI and NVBK) mal is very different (female though) and fits the BR profile. Is there some agreement on this, or am I way off?


I would say that the KNPV lines (unregistered) are the highest thresholds of them all. I would also say the BR lines also tend to be a little on the sharp side towards people, so they deff have a lower threshold from what I have seen and heard. I spoke to a Dutch KNPV guy who has a strong relationship with the NVBK guys, in that they get dogs from each other, and his comment was "The NVBK dogs are more sharp and aggressive to people than the KNPV lines are, sometimes even comming from fear".
But most of what you said seems to be the stereotypical differences.


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## Timothy Saunders

I think that you are generally right. I think you have to also consider the type of dogs that people are able to train. I would like to know what you mean by threshold?


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## Mike Scheiber

Timothy Saunders;136740 I would like to know what you mean by threshold?[/quote said:


> Another new buzz term being tossed around working dog circles.
> Just take what the dog offers and give out what the dog can take simply put if ya know what your doing it don't matter dog training.


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## Gillian Schuler

Well I wouldn't have called it a new "buzz" word in dog circles.

Roughly put, it's the point at which a dog reacts to something, be it pain or irritation, prey, etc. 

High pain threshold - pretty easy to evaluate - means a dog can take a lot of pain.

Low threshold on the other hand - quivers at the sight of a needle!!

The thresholds referred to in sport are not so easy to determine probably. But a good handler should know how quickly his dog reacts to the decoy and threats, etc.

Some say a dog has a "high threshold" some say it has a "low threshold" and don't elucidate any further but I think it's more complex than this.


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## Bernt Lundby

Like most of the terms in dog sports, "threshold" is not operationalized precisely: I view it as how much of a certain stimulus (ie pain) the dog needs before triggering a visible response (ie. fight/flight/freeze). It has to do with the sympathetic branch of the peripheral nervous system and variation in how quickly and strongly it fires in response to various external stimuli.

I don't know much about KNPV dogs, you are probably right in them needing to be high treshold to function in that sport (like BR and MR).

About BR dogs being sharp/aggressive, that may be true. The dogs on my pups sire's side are like that. It is difficult to know if sharpness/aggression stems from genetics or harsh training using high level electric stimulation though. I personally hope it is the latter in the case of my pup as I have no need for sharpness only using it as a sport (MR) dog.


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## Christopher Jones

Bernt Lundby said:


> About BR dogs being sharp/aggressive, that may be true. The dogs on my pups sire's side are like that. It is difficult to know if sharpness/aggression stems from genetics or harsh training using high level electric stimulation though. I personally hope it is the latter in the case of my pup as I have no need for sharpness only using it as a sport (MR) dog.


I think the sharpness comes through genetics. The NVBK dogs are different to the KNPV dogs, for sure. Some people will prefer the NVBK dogs and others the KNPV dogs. But as a general rule the KNPV people want their dogs to be more social, while there are alot of NVBK guys who appreciate "civil aggression". Also the NVBK is the only sport where a dog has to attack a civilian, so maybe this has given them the need for more sharpness? Not too sure. 
I appreciate both programs and both gene pools. Also in the NVBK there is a far greater need for control on the dogs to get good scores, and you need a bit more of a quicker nerved dog for this.
But that to me is the beauty of the Malinois. Whatever type of dog you want, you will find it in the Malinois.


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## Gillian Schuler

_Quote CJ: But that to me is the beauty of the Malinois. Whatever type of dog you want, you will find it in the Malinois.Unquote_

I'd like to say, whatever sport you want to do with a dog, you can find a Malinois to do it. This, to knock out those who are looking for a couch potato!!

I'm sticking with my GSDs but they are not comparable (in general) to the Malinois when it comes to physical activities on the whole.

I have a GSD that is, but I have one that isn't and, unfortunately, the drive in the "heavy duty" dog is far stronger than in the "light" variety.


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## Barrie Kirkland

Christopher Jones said:


> I think the sharpness comes through genetics. The NVBK dogs are different to the KNPV dogs, for sure. Some people will prefer the NVBK dogs and others the KNPV dogs. But as a general rule the KNPV people want their dogs to be more social, while there are alot of NVBK guys who appreciate "civil aggression". Also the NVBK is the only sport where a dog has to attack a civilian, so maybe this has given them the need for more sharpness? Not too sure.
> I appreciate both programs and both gene pools. Also in the NVBK there is a far greater need for control on the dogs to get good scores, and you need a bit more of a quicker nerved dog for this.
> But that to me is the beauty of the Malinois. Whatever type of dog you want, you will find it in the Malinois.



i wasnt aware of this...as a lay person, you would think it was the other way round


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## Kyle Sprag

Also the NVBK is the only sport where a dog has to attack a civilian said:


> What exercise is this?


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## Debbie Skinner

Maybe talking about the guard of object where the dog is muzzled and the decoy isn't suited up?


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## Brett Burton

Kyle Sprag said:


> Also the NVBK is the only sport where a dog has to attack a civilian, so maybe this has given them the need for more sharpness? Not too sure.
> 
> 
> 
> What exercise is this?
Click to expand...

At a random time during the routine they just send the dog into the crowd.

Spectator sport! :razz:


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## Christopher Jones

Kyle Sprag said:


> Also the NVBK is the only sport where a dog has to attack a civilian said:
> 
> 
> 
> What exercise is this?
> 
> 
> 
> One of the Object Guard exercises is done in a muzzel and a civilian goes in to take the object from the dog.
Click to expand...


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## Christopher Jones

Barrie Kirkland said:


> i wasnt aware of this...as a lay person, you would think it was the other way round


Yeah, I agree. With KNPV being all about training police dogs and NVBK being more a competition sport thats what you wouild expect. Nearly every person I have spoken to who have had a bit to do with noth NVBK dogs and KNPV says the exact same thing. KNPV guys want more social dogs, NVBK less social dogs. 
Heres a NVBK website where they advertise their studs, you notice they are all "not social"
http://home.scarlet.be/~mdaems1/engels/reuen.htm

Regardless, its good to see the differences between them, as this gives people options.


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## Barrie Kirkland

The only nvbk dog I have been around is own owned by a cop and I believe it's a conflict resolution dog now

I'm interested in finding more out as I'm looking to aquire a knpv lined young dog which is in the closing stages of me procuring it


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## Erik Berg

BR is not the only sport where the dogs are attacking a civilian, it´s six muzzleattacks on a civlian in the swedish protectionprogram, but a dog can be reasonable social but still has aggression and sharpness, so I don´t think that is a reason for BR-dogs being more unsocial. A little poorly filmed competition at the workingdog club in my town in the swedish program, but compared to BR the muzzlework is more extensive,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVUlCiXjq8

In general social dogs, or at least tolerant to people are more valued here in sweden for example, compared to other parts of Europe where many dogs live in a kennel and not really are expected to live in a familysituation. So I don´t think social dogs are something everybody care so much about in belgium for example, I guess it also could be part of how the dogs are raised and handled, how social a dog is as grown. 

I also suppose you have different type of characters in mals depending on the breeders goal, and not only which sport they have been breed for, just like the GSD breed for SCH for a long time could differ in character depending on what the breeders strive for. But why are the reasons mals breed for FR is considered as a generalization less strong than BR/KNPV?


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## Timothy Saunders

hello Chris , I don't think you can use Mark Daem's dogs as an example. He likes a dog like that. Also he uses as much knpv blood as he does Nvbk.


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## Christopher Jones

Timothy Saunders said:


> hello Chris , I don't think you can use Mark Daem's dogs as an example. He likes a dog like that. Also he uses as much knpv blood as he does Nvbk.


Its not just Mark Daems that likes those types of dogs, alot of them do. Mark does have an agreement with a Dutch Kennel to swap bloodlines, to what result Im not sure. One of the people who has said about the NVBK dogs being alot more sharp and aggressive than the KNPV dogs is Mark Daems partner kennel in Holland.


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## Bernt Lundby

Sounds like he is getting his info skewed toward unsocial if he is working with Daem. He advertises with civil aggression and "not social" on most of his dogs (Evgeny, Stop Dit Strike etc). Most of the breeders I talked to before buying a pup (Hantjeshoek, and some others) said their dogs were social and that this was neccesary for good results in ring sports (being secure with the decoys etc). I bought my pup from Joefarm who write this on their page:


"As recognised breeder of malinois, we garantee a qualitatively high standing pup. Because of the years experience and correct breeding we can deliver a social, well balanced and strongly built dog to the devotees.
We also want to get the story out of the world as if "a malinois is a false dog". Our dogs are super social, what doesn't mean they can't do their work as a protection dog. A well balanced, social and self secure dog will be a lot more trust worthy then a frightened and agressive dog. As recognised breeder of malinois, we garantee a qualitatively high standing pup. *Because of the years experience and correct breeding we can deliver a social, well balanced and strongly built dog to the devotees.*
We also want to get the story out of the world as if "a malinois is a false dog". Our dogs are super social, what doesn't mean they can't do their work as a protection dog. *A well balanced, social and self secure dog will be a lot more trust worthy then a frightened and agressive dog*"


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