# Will the family pet protect the home?



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I was watching this news show on youtube they tested 4 dogs to see if they would bite a "burglar". The only dog that bit the intruder was the police dog a GSD. The guy didn't get 10 feet into the house with that dog. The rest were just typical pet dogs none of them bit the intruder. One of them did bark and growl though which is a deterrant. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_TINv4TKhk&feature=fvw


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

the comments were fun to read.

thanks for posting.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

You know it is a shame that:

a) there were no guard breeds included in their little experiment.
b) they just told all the thiefs, that hey most dogs WON't bite.

All in the interest of "news". Most dog trainers would tell you that those dogs wouldn't be likely to bite.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Interesting. Were the pets spayed/neutered? Does that have any effect on a dog's desire/ability to bite in this type of scenario?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The test were true no doubt. Unfair though. Hints: Sleeve, his training area. I bet he would bite .


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Interesting. Were the pets spayed/neutered? Does that have any effect on a dog's desire/ability to bite in this type of scenario?


I don't think it's interesting at all. Almost all dogs are condition to never bite people and most house dogs are conditioned to accept strangers in their home.

I remember the very first scenarios we did in my house with my dog who have had lots of bite work on the field. Both of them were like WTF when the decoy bust into the house "I don't bite people here". It took some agitation before they would bite at first. The Malii fared slightly better than the Rott at first but he's a much sharper dog with more confidence and natural aggression than the Rott. It took two sessions before they would reliablyl do a B&H and then bite on any movement.

Here's a pic from a cell phone cam the decoy took from the 2nd intruder session.












The dogs that most of the people on the board are different from your average house dog as they've been built up to face a person with aggression, however, it's still a crap shoot without training.

To believe your dog will be courageous and bite while alone and without training is short-sighted.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Interesting. Were the pets spayed/neutered? Does that have any effect on a dog's desire/ability to bite in this type of scenario?


 
Seriously?


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks for the personal insight Chris, but how does that answer my questions?


And I think it's interesting because a lot of people just assume their dog(s) will protect them/their property and this video, while somewhat biased, shows that it's not as likely as they might think.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Thanks for the personal insight Chris, but how does that answer my questions?
> 
> 
> And I think it's interesting because a lot of people just assume their dog(s) will protect them/their property and this video, while somewhat biased, shows that it's not as likely as they might think.


 
Take 10 different dogs TRAINED in sport, PPD, or PSD that BITE!! Do a generic stake out in the middle of an open unfamilar field, walk away for 30 minutes without anyone in site, watch the dogs behavior. Next, most stake outs of bites are with alot of prey or even not with defensive, or civil type engagements........

Now, put on a sweatshirt with hoodie down walk and creep up to the dog slowly, never looking at him at all, walk in staggered fashions never straight at him......

You will see most dogs look at that as unfamiliar in a lot of cases, some pull back, some nothing - chain is taught the whole time, some hackles go up, some spinn in circles looking for guidance from handler.....

And if you have a hidden sleeve, with no agitation see how far you can get in to the dog.........

I've gotten all the way to the stake out with the dog on the other end of chain....barking and snarling, but not engaging at all.....And then again, some met me at the end of the chain.....

And if some dogs do engage in this manner or in a house intrusion......is it fear?????

It's one of those things, if you want your dog to do something, don't leave it up to destiny or your assumptions....try it, train it and be ready for it...


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Good video, I would love to see the video done with guard type breeds though.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Take 10 different dogs TRAINED in sport, PPD, or PSD that BITE!! Do a generic stake out in the middle of an open unfamilar field, walk away for 30 minutes without anyone in site, watch the dogs behavior. Next, most stake outs of bites are with alot of prey or even not with defensive, or civil type engagements........
> 
> Now, put on a sweatshirt with hoodie down walk and creep up to the dog slowly, never looking at him at all, walk in staggered fashions never straight at him......
> 
> ...


I can appreciate the need for testing and scenario based training. If I wanted to take a dog hunting I would assess its suitability for the work so I don't waste my time or endanger myself/the dog when placed in harm's way. However, I asked specific questions in reference to spay and neuter. I would personally never hunt with an altered dog but since I don't know a lot about protection dogs I wondered if there might be similarities or if it's completley different.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

That was pretty cool thing to watch. It will be neat to see more "guardian" breeds being tested for and the nasty chihuahuas. 

I have two min pins and one of them has a weak nerves. He is kind of dog that won't bite when you walked into the room, but he will jump on your lap and stare at you until you put your face closer to his. He will bite your nose. He doesn't like when people put their faces closer to his except for a member of his family.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I would like to see that video shot with trained dogs, first in the light, then in the dark to see the differences as well.....

And realisticly cmon what is a lapdog going to do once your in, just punt it!


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Hey thats my local news station!!!
There have been tons of break ins this year.


I'm kind of curious of what my dog would do.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've had a dog (gsd) as a companion that would bite.... I know that because he did!

I learned quite a lot from that dog, he was a very dominant kind of dog, dog aggressive too - very, but very loving and gentle with the family and other animals that were part of the family/extended family.

Over a period of years, I observed how he 'targetted' certain bites, for example....

The dust cart guy who would go about his business with his broom sweeping, this dog would 'terrier' him about the ankles... he wasn't playing, just nipping and noisy telling the guy to get lost.

The neighbours that he knew but disliked; he would take a shallow arm or chest bite/nip.... that cost quite a bit because the neighbour liked his cashmere jumpers lol

My family home was quite a big house with a porch on front which was never locked, occasionally if folks thought that no-one had heard the knock they would come inside to try the other bell, I had caught the dog once and so had my brother, there may have been other scenarios whilst I was away. This dog would launch for a face/throat attack .... I had blamed this behaviour on my father at the time as he had looked after him whilst I was away from home. His philosophy had been 'allow the dog to think and do his job'....

That dog was put down at 5 yrs old as I had to travel and could no longer leave him at my folks place ... but in answer to the op, some dogs most definitely do!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I think this came up in the show "it takes a thief" as well. One time they break into a house with a supposedly "vicious" dog, and the dog does nothing - they put it out the front door, and later let it back in to not clue in the soon-to-return ownes and/or neighbors that anything is wrong. Another time, I can just remember their glee at breaking into a policeman's house with two labs or goldens or something like that. "Oooo, cop dogs! I love cop dogs, they are so well trained. Here's a treat, SIT boys!" No problem getting around those dogs either, throw treats in a room and shut the door after them.

A good point made that a forward dog with a loud bark makes an excellent deterrent in it's own right - and if they want to go through a dog, even the best trained one can be killed or disabled...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

James Lechernich said:


> Interesting. Were the pets spayed/neutered? Does that have any effect on a dog's desire/ability to bite in this type of scenario?



 James how does a dog's reporductivity ability impacts its ability to bite and protect?
Lets see...two retriever breeds, known to be people friendly as a breed goes.
Cop dog tested with a sleeve...nice.
The information presented is interesting in that many "regular" families think this way. No wonder we wash out 95% of the dogs that come here for PPD training.
I'll bet this little pisser of a Bantam chicken would put up more fight! Attacked me again today...I'm smelling chicken pot pie!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

James Lechernich said:


> ... I would personally never hunt with an altered dog but since I don't know a lot about protection dogs I wondered if there might be similarities or if it's completley different.


 How does an altered dog hunt differently from an intact one? #-oI had a spayed Lab and she would never give up until the bird was found and brought to hand or until I called her off a cripple that couldn't be safely taken.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

those bantams can be wicked evil little things. quick and vicious. i have scars on my left hand from trying to get eggs out the hen house when one of the bantams was loose in the chicken field at my buddies farm. better a bantam than a lab.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

chris haynie said:


> those bantams can be wicked evil little things. quick and vicious. i have scars on my left hand from trying to get eggs out the hen house when one of the bantams was loose in the chicken field at my buddies farm. better a bantam than a lab.


 So Chris you DO understand?! This rooster popped my coveralls the other day and this is like the 4th time this "little cocker" has gotten big. If he hears my voice, he will sound off until I see him. Funny bird.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

those bantams are nuts. my buddy also has andulusians and jersey giants. the dutch bantam roosters he has are seriously crazy and out for blood. the jersey roosters are somewhat tolerable and handleable, the andulsians just dont like but will let you work in the coop/field without problems, but those bantams want you dead. 

i wonder how these tests would have gone if the used guardian or livestock guardian breeds? just today i was at a farm getting some rabbits and the farmer had a maremma sheepdog. he just watched me the whole time but i get the feeling if i had done anything threating or stupid he would have had my leg for breakfast.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> How does an altered dog hunt differently from an intact one? #-oI had a spayed Lab and she would never give up until the bird was found and brought to hand or until I called her off a cripple that couldn't be safely taken.


The altered dogs I've seen lacked the grit and stamina to engage/stay on hogs.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> I think this came up in the show "it takes a thief" as well. One time they break into a house with a supposedly "vicious" dog, and the dog does nothing - they put it out the front door, and later let it back in to not clue in the soon-to-return ownes and/or neighbors that anything is wrong. Another time, I can just remember their glee at breaking into a policeman's house with two labs or goldens or something like that. "Oooo, cop dogs! I love cop dogs, they are so well trained. Here's a treat, SIT boys!" No problem getting around those dogs either, throw treats in a room and shut the door after them.
> 
> A good point made that a forward dog with a loud bark makes an excellent deterrent in it's own right - and if they want to go through a dog, even the best trained one can be killed or disabled...


Haha!! I've seen that show before and one time the thief actually loaded up the dog in the car they stole. :lol:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> The altered dogs I've seen lacked the grit and stamina to engage/stay on hogs.



how were they before they were altered?

There is one Mal that comes out to the club on occasion. The handler picked it up from the pound where it had been altered. That dog still hits like a freight train.

It's not the size of the balls that matter, it's the heart.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> how were they before they were altered?
> 
> There is one Mal that comes out to the club on occasion. The handler picked it up from the pound where it had been altered. That dog still hits like a freight train.
> 
> It's not the size of the balls that matter, it's the heart.


The few I've seen before and after were rougher dogs when intact, softer when altered. Didn't tolerate heat as well, either.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Guardian breeds, house breeds, hunting breeds, etc... , who gives a shit. If the dog has no formal training wheter small or large, intact or not it dont make a bit of fringing difference. Dogs if not worked and trained properly are going to be nothing but sissy's. If the dog is not conditioned and trained for these type of scenarios very few dogs in this world will step up to the plate and handle business. Look hom many dogs I have seen in the past that are bad ass in most eyes but would fail a food refusal in a heartbeat.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

We have 6 dogs right now:

1. 7 1/2 yo SchH titled dog will definitely protect
2. 8 1/2 yo relative of SchH dog we rescued at around 5 yo--almost definitely will protect
3. Pitbull female--I think will if the others do but I don't think on her own
4. 9-month-old male GSD puppy--too young right now but he has the stuff
5. Almost 2-year-old Doberman female--almost definitely will protect
6. Almost 7-month-old Black Russian Terrier--she's showing the signs that she will protect

I'll make a statement that some will disagree with--too much prey drive & the dog will not protect unless trained. They will be good biting dogs & with training they will bite on command but otherwise they do not see a threat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> We have 6 dogs right now:
> 
> 1. 7 1/2 yo SchH titled dog will definitely protect
> 2. 8 1/2 yo relative of SchH dog we rescued at around 5 yo--almost definitely will protect
> ...


I'm interested in how you determined the ratings on #1, 2, 5, and 6.

Also, how much is too much prey drive? 

How would you describe too much prey drive?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think most dogs...Have more a flight response to run. They may do some defensive posturing. If we could take pet dogs, and make them protectors...we would not need pedigrees, working trials...and that Jazz. I think most dogs, genetically are selfish, would not sacrifice themselves, and have a huge self preservation instinct. 

It's cute idea for owners to think that fido would save the day....But he would probably piss himself.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> We have 6 dogs right now:
> 
> 1. 7 1/2 yo SchH titled dog will definitely protect
> 2. 8 1/2 yo relative of SchH dog we rescued at around 5 yo--almost definitely will protect
> ...


One more reason to get a high drive dog!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Actually in regards to high prey drive dogs, I think that is the presentation of a super high drive dog on the field. High drive dogs present the picture that the dog does not see a threat, just a reward or "resource" to be won, or possessed. No matter how much the man tries to intimidate them, it does not make them move. The level of threat, and also the level of pain adminstered on a dog on the field is also a variable that is in question. But we have see the same dog, who is high drive, a few times a week on a field, with game he knows...with people he knows...and place where most likely he was made to feel comfortable....A place he always wins. This is all classical conditioning. The dog has paired this stimulus with being in prey his whole life. This a million miles away from some breaking into the house.

This is much different than being at home laying by the fire place,at 2 am, when it's dark relaxed, when a loud bang happens or a window breaks, or even somebody slowly sneaking through an unlocked door. I am not saying the dog would bite...But what I am saying is the dog is not going to be in prey drive looking for sleeve. The dog is not going to be thinking....Nothing the matter here, wheres my tuggy.They are either going to be growling,going forward...or running for the laundry room.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

My parents had a Rottweiler for more then ten years,great family dog.
He never waited when someone who did not belong to the family came in,as soon as there was enough body inside the door he would nail them!
His reputation was so fierce even after he had been dead for more then four years people would call before they came over and ask us if we could put the dog in the barn.
We never locked a door when he was around,we also tried him on a suit later on and he could not be chased.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Boston Terrier, Doodle Bug, Will eat you alive . he is a no joke.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Does anyone else think the opposite? like me,I am not so concerned if the dog would protect me. But I think about this every once in awhile...If anyone ever tried to hurt Addie. I would stop at nothing, to make sure they had to drink at least a few meals through a straw.


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## Alan R. Wyatt (Dec 28, 2008)

What I really like about our dogs is they are definately a deterrant. This was proven just before Christmas two years ago and was witnessed by a neighbor. A guy tried to break in to our house in broad daylight when my wife and I were not home. According to our neighbor the guy tried to break in through our front door but stopped when our dogs started barking and from the looks of our living room, Christmas tree and end tables knocked over by the dogs, it was pretty intense. Our neighbor was on the phone with 911 when she heard a car alarm go off , it was the same guy breaking into another neighbors car by throwing a brick through the window. The guy has not been caught yet but I seriously doubt he will come back to our house. I'm really glad our dogs were here and proud of them for doing what they did. Even though there was no actual bite involved I obviously feel they protected our home and honestly because of all the legal BS that we would probably have had to go through, I'm glad it didn't come to that. And FYI the two dogs we had at the time were a 6 year old Boxer and a 5 year old Doberman, both intact males.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> It's not the size of the balls that matter, it's the heart.


 I guess we have to genetically alter all dogs to have bigger junk...the bigger the junk, the better they hit?! My bet is that they will have a hard time leaving the ground for back bites!!!!!!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

How many threads will there be, have there been on this subject? Who is trying to convince who? Pet dogs vs trained dogs, you never know, they may bite one time, and not the next. Take the trained dog out of his safe spot where he has learned his dance steps, you don't know what he is going to do. Some of those trained dogs are just as likely going to bite the wrong person when overly excited. I have seen dogs start banging heads simply because they wanted something and were restrained. The only thing they could reach was each other. Bottom line, everyone feels better thinking their dog will bite. Training give you an edge, but it is just that, an edge. ......not a guarantee. How do most dogs react when someone hurts them. If you don't know that, you don't know if the dog is going to protect you.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

The definitive answer to the question asked in the first post - will the pet protect or will it not is this - we simply don't know.

Too many variables to give an answer. Also...

Pet GSD or pet Malinois is not the same as a pet Lab.

IfI have to offer my 2 cents on it - 98% pets WILL NOT protect. If the dog has it in him, then he can be trained to protect the home.

Acting as a deterrent, barking through the door, alerting, alarm etc... those are totaly and completely different things than engaging the guy inside the house in a real fight.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ahhhh, and here lies your answer. This is called the *WORKING DOG FORUM*. Maybe the fluffers should leave and the workers buckle down for some real K-9 issues for 2010. JMO and we don't wish anyone off "Happy Island." But this is a working dog venue and hence much of the issues should relate to that.

Or Mike can step up and create the "Princess Forum" and those who want to be can go there. 8-[


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I have an example of a "pet" dog that has bitten to protect property and relatively new master. I found this dog on Craigslist for my aunt, just wanted a dog that had drive and energy that would bark to alert of someone coming. 

He is 1/2 dane 1/4 Sharpei 1/4 pit, Rolo is 4 years old neutered a year ago. We got him on Halloween 2009. 
New Years Eve some punks came up the driveway looking for my cousin that used to live here. My aunt went outside because Rolo was barking and confronted them because they were messing around the front of the property. They have a flaglot with a hill for a driveway, and the garage and woodshop at the top outside of the main property fence. The kids were getting into the garage. My aunt opened the maingate and went out to tell them to piss off and get off the property, Rolo went with her. One of the kids, she said he was late teens early 20's came towards her like he was going to hit her and Rolo bit him in the leg. Yelling, flailing, my aunt called Rolo to her, they ran off. 

This was about 10 minutes before I got to her house. She told me what happened when I got here and even though it didn't mean anything to him I gave Rolo a couple biscuits LOL

Here he is: 









I have no idea what would happen if this dog was tested further but I don't think he is any sort of super dog. He is a great dog for my aunt, super ball driven, high prey drive, high food drive, biddable, affectionate, goofy but strong willed and a dog that you have to earn the respect of. Good with kids and cats and female dogs, is pushy and dominant towards males but not outright aggressive. Does like tugs and uses his nose a lot. If I worked with him could probably get passing scores in club level SchH I.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Tried to edit it won't let me. I think he would crumble like most dogs if he was put under any sort of pressure or in a real fight. My aunt doesn't know if he got flesh or just clothing when he bit, the kid was wearing baggy jeans. 

Rolo is about 28-29" tall and 92 pounds. Just his big dane bark and those eyes are enough to keep people from coming in the yard.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I have no idea whether or not my dogs would do anything to protect the property. My older male will bark at people who aren't supposed to be here but that doesn't mean he would do jack once they came in the house. And if I'm not home there's no protecting to be done since both my dogs are in crates.



James Downey said:


> Does anyone else think the opposite? like me,I am not so concerned if the dog would protect me. But I think about this every once in awhile...If anyone ever tried to hurt Addie. I would stop at nothing, to make sure they had to drink at least a few meals through a straw.


This is how I feel at times. If someone were to break into my house I probably wouldn't be sending my dogs after them since I don't want my boys to get hurt. If anything I'll be protecting my dogs...take the TV but let me keep my dogs.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Rolo is a handsome looking dog, with obvious good instincts.

I have only 2 dogs now. 1 is my allert dog ( 11mos young and I don't rely on him to do more than bark) the other doesn't bark much but he will bite, I am pretty sure. He's lunged at my own mom for looking at him funny through the screen door. She was inside the house, the dog was in the backyard. 

Fortunatly no one around here is stupid enough to try my dogs. I think certain dogs will lock eyes with a person and unless that person is stupid or retarded, they don't approach the dog or his area. My non barker wont even sound off when someone knocks on the door, but he sure does jump up and stand guard before I open it. So far nobody has asked to come in or wanted me to step out. They seem to like the metal screen door to remain closed, as the dog eye ****s them. He sure does help cut the door to door salesmen speel short.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> This is how I feel at times. If someone were to break into my house I probably wouldn't be sending my dogs after them since I don't want my boys to get hurt. If anything I'll be protecting my dogs...take the TV but let me keep my dogs.


I was thinking about this scenario today since we keep our dog in his crate or kennel run when we are not home, which renders him useless if someone where to burglarize the place... but I'd rather have my material things taken than the possibility of my dog being taken for good.

What i'd be more concerned about is how he would react when hes out roaming the house with my wife when i'm not home. 

Ive got a dog who only my wife and I can touch and although he gets pretty nasty on the field he hasn't been tested for real scenarios, but i've seen enough to get a feeling he'd do what was necessary.

Testing for real situations is deffinately something I want to do in the near future.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Michelle - thanks! We think he's a good lookin' dog. Looks like a small dane with a black mouth and tongue. He is a good boy, whether he never bites or tries to bite anyone again my aunt doesn't care. He is intimidating looking enough to be a deterrent and he is a great walking buddy, is obedient, happy, playful, and will do anything for a ball.

His color is cool, too. The most minimally expressed merle I've ever seen - only some flecking/speckles on his legs, belly, chest, and those crazy two-tone eyes.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I saw this awhile back, I plan on doing the same type of scenario with Judge just cause I'm curious. I've been waiting on my decoy to come and help me. If you can, I challenge people here to run the same type of scenario and post a vid of the whole thing. I will as soon as my decoy comes around. 

Courtney


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Tell us what kind of a scenario you have in mind? the setup, where, how, where is the dog, what time, day or night, what the owner does, how the decoy approached e.g door, fence, through the window etc... so, we can visualize it. Then, tell us how the dog did!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> We have 6 dogs right now:
> 
> 1. 7 1/2 yo SchH titled dog will definitely protect
> 2. 8 1/2 yo relative of SchH dog we rescued at around 5 yo--almost definitely will protect
> ...


Sue this is the problem with most. dogs oriented to a sleeve all its life ( is the dog equipment fixated ), if not how do you know. Almost defently sorry almost doesnt count in a life or death situation, almost will probally get your ass killed or somebody innocent hurt. Your other descriptions are not to swift either.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I 100% agree with Harry. I'm 100% sure my dog would bite a decoy wrapped in a suit but some stranger with no padding, would take longer to get a bite if he got one at all. Depends on the vibes he is sending out to the dog. It's home, in his relaxed environment after all. Suspicious and weird= bite, smooth and happy to see the dog= probably nothing, really aggressive and pushy= not leaving here intact. 

Put the dog on a table or staked on the field...everything is getting barked and bit. In social situations and home environment my dogs aren't ON 24/7 and aren't suppossed to be thinking BITE. One thing I do give my dog, he is right there with me wherever I am. If I get up, he gets up. If he hears something, he is checking it out. He's not completely shut off at home but he isn't barking at every noise or snapping at whatever moves either. 

Different places and situaions will and should illicit different responces. If someone approached the fence outside, they go nuts, no matter who or what age you are. Inside, your free to come to the door but the dog is right there checking you out, no tail wagging, just watching you like a hawk and a visitor is not left out of his site.

Not sure who would be down for coming in uninvited or crawling in the window unprotected to try the dog out for certain??? I wouldn't suggest a hidden sleeve because it would be pointless, requiring it be fed into his face so he wouldn't bite elswhere first. Again a suit would be pointless, of course he's going to bite an equipment invitation.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Sue this is the problem with most. dogs oriented to a sleeve all its life ( is the dog equipment fixated ), if not how do you know. Almost defently sorry almost doesnt count in a life or death situation, almost will probally get your ass killed or somebody innocent hurt. Your other descriptions are not to swift either.


 
You need to know the dogs to make that determination. Many dogs just don't like people on/in their space; house, yard or vehicle.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> You need to know the dogs to make that determination. Many dogs just don't like people on/in their space; house, yard or vehicle.


For sure! I have one high prey aggression SchH 3 dog just like that. One day he decided to punch his face through the metal security screen going after the mailman [-( And he didn't have a sleeve on either ;-) I can only imagine what that must of looked like to the mailman?! Cut from the top of the nose to between the eyes with his face punched through the metal screen. Yikes! Needless to say the door is closed now until the mail runs. Both of my boys are territorially aggressive. 

It's enough of a show (and a fairly serious one at that) to keep those who wouldn't think twice about entering a non-dog household to do harm.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

"protect" has a wide variety of meanings where dogs are concerned. I think dogs will "protect" as best they can, in regards to their genetics/training, this can range from barking to killing someone.

When I think of Guard or Protect in dog terms, I expect a lot more than alert or watch. I think of a dog that will engage a person even if that person is violently fighting the dog.

I think a good test for a dog is to see if it will protect ITSELF. Thats a good starting point for me.

Very few "pet" dogs would "protect" the home without training IMHO. By my definition. 

Never know for sure but muzzle work, passive bites and hidden equipment are good indicators for me.

I would not be satisfied with a sport title to define whether a dog would protect.

I have seen numerous titled dogs that are not equipped to handle the stress of defense work. It is not a necessity in sport work. The problem comes when the dog is actually pushed into defense and it is not capable of coping with the pressure.

Nothing sadder than a SCH 3 titled dog that will not protect itself when staked out alone. Not picking on SCH here, I have met many good sch dogs that would protect themselves, and their owners just saying.....

almost as bad as the bullmastiff or mastiff or any other breeders touting "guard dogs" in their ads, when they have done NO testing or training in regards to bite work.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I'd shit can a dog that didn't protect himself. Why feed a dog that can't protect himself let alone, YOU? I wouldn't waste anymore time or training on a dog that failed the stakeout. Interesting, I didn't think this was a real issue, who does work a dog like this?


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Joby I wasn't bragging about a SchH 3 dog that is, as clearly stated, _territorially aggressive_. In my little corner of the world, it's enough. His sport title doesn't make him what he is. He doesn't like strangers on or near the property! I sincerely doubt his training gave him those traits. I have no need/use for a "protection dog", per se. For those that do, rock on.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

A dog that is protective in a home or car is all great and crap, but how do you know the dam dog is biting out of the pure unknown and reacting out of fear. Why own a dog to protect the home that will bite out of fear thats BS. Dog that bites out of fear will probally bite a friend over the house for a cup of tea ( thats not acceptable ) that moves to quick or spooks the dog. True dog to protect home should be able to be turned on when you leave the home and then turned back off. Dog should be nothing other than a house pet unless told otherwise with the exception of training if a threat arises, then the dog should react out of his training. Any other type of dog to protect the home outside these parameters is nothing but dangerous to everyone in that house and a pure liability to everyone that comes over to visit. No ifs ends about it. The only other thing I have seen is I have a budddy up north that use to have a business. He would drop dogs of to businesses and pick them back up before they open ( not even the dam owners can get in their own business ), basically a dangerous junk yard dog. Very few and far in between need a rarity like this. Thats why he no longer does this type of BS anymore.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> Joby I wasn't bragging about a SchH 3 dog that is, as clearly stated, _territorially aggressive_. In my little corner of the world, it's enough. His sport title doesn't make him what he is. He doesn't like strangers on or near the property! I sincerely doubt his training gave him those traits. I have no need/use for a "protection dog", per se. For those that do, rock on.


Wasnt referring to you. just generally speaking. I have friend that was mugged and robbed with her SCH III dog onleash at her side. I wish that person would try it again, the dog now has the tools he needs.



Michelle Kehoe said:


> I'd shit can a dog that didn't protect himself. Why feed a dog that can't protect himself let alone, YOU? I wouldn't waste anymore time or training on a dog that failed the stakeout. Interesting, I didn't think this was a real issue, who does work a dog like this?


Who trains like this??????

The same people that are against a dog that would bite someone for real, that train dogsports. I have been asked to not return to training groups based on a few bites. Dog performed well, bit well, outed well, just scared the crap out of the club decoy, who obviously was not used to a "real" dog biting him.

You should see the look of digust on some peoples faces when the muzzles, bitesuits, guns, jugs o rocks and hidden sleeves come out, after the trial sleeves, padded sticks and scratch pants are put away. Not saying this is the norm for SCH clubs but I have seen it first hand, and have been told by several people with titled dogs that they would never want a dog that would bite for real....


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> A dog that is protective in a home or car is all great and crap, but how do you know the dam dog is biting out of the pure unknown and reacting out of fear. Why own a dog to protect the home that will bite out of fear thats BS. Dog that bites out of fear will probally bite a friend over the house for a cup of tea ( thats not acceptable ) that moves to quick or spooks the dog. True dog to protect home should be able to be turned on when you leave the home and then turned back off. Dog should be nothing other than a house pet unless told otherwise with the exception of training if a threat arises, then the dog should react out of his training. Any other type of dog to protect the home outside these parameters is nothing but dangerous to everyone in that house and a pure liability to everyone that comes over to visit. No ifs ends about it. The only other thing I have seen is I have a budddy up north that use to have a business. He would drop dogs of to businesses and pick them back up before they open ( not even the dam owners can get in their own business ), basically a dangerous junk yard dog. Very few and far in between need a rarity like this. Thats why he no longer does this type of BS anymore.


Who said the dogs would bite out of Fear? Some dogs have a level of Territory and/or Social Agression. You know when you are around and can read a dog.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Wasnt referring to you. just generally speaking. I have friend that was mugged and robbed with her SCH III dog onleash at her side. I wish that person would try it again, the dog now has the tools he needs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats what I have been trying to say on here just because a dog will bite a sleeve, suit, etc.. doesnt mean the dog will bite for real period. Heres a test for all of you that think your dog will bite for real because you assume he will bite because of the equipment you feed him or her. Take a hidden sleeve and put a football jersey or hockey jersey over it. Or if you choose to by large and tall sweat clothing and put it over the suit and try that if you wish. Make sure you by enough different clothing to wear over the protective equipment so its not visible at all so the dog does not become fixated on one type of clothing. While your at it the person that normally decoys remove him as well and let a totally new person be the decoy as well. Because dogs also become fixated on people as well as normal place of training Which you should change as well to test your dog. Just my opinion though, give it a try what do you have to loose. At least you will know if you have a dog that you think you wish to own or you find out you already own.\\/\\/\\/


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Harry, 
The junkyard dog IS the one that will bite when you're not home, it IS the one that will bite a friend over for coffee etc. Do you (not you but the general you) REALLY want a dog that bites when you're there or not? This is the dog you need. Most people on this board would washout this dog for nerves or whatever but this is the dog that no matter what you do , act calm, act aggressive, whatever, it's biting because it's thin nerved and has no thresholds. The other shit is just bullshit. I'd bet anything that even some people on this board that are pretty sure their dog will bite a stranger in the house that enter calm and collected would be very surprised at the dogs reaction, VERY surprised. Most folks wash out the nervy ones and prefer the disney thing.

I


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats what I have been trying to say on here just because a dog will bite a sleeve, suit, etc.. doesnt mean the dog will bite for real period. Heres a test for all of you that think your dog will bite for real because you assume he will bite because of the equipment you feed him or her. Take a hidden sleeve and put a football jersey or hockey jersey over it. Or if you choose to by large and tall sweat clothing and put it over the suit and try that if you wish. Make sure you by enough different clothing to wear over the protective equipment so its not visible at all so the dog does not become fixated on one type of clothing. While your at it the person that normally decoys remove him as well and let a totally new person be the decoy as well. Because dogs also become fixated on people as well as normal place of training Which you should change as well to test your dog. Just my opinion though, give it a try what do you have to loose. At least you will know if you have a dog that you think you wish to own or you find out you already own.\\/\\/\\/


 
Good GOD, Master of the Obvious!:-k BTW I own a tactical suit for a reason, IMO just a hidden sleeve won't cut it if you are really going to test. :-o


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Who said the dogs would bite out of Fear? Some dogs have a level of Territory and/or Social Agression. You know when you are around and can read a dog.


Kyle not saying anyone particular person said anything about fear I'm using it as a example of what most these dogs are and end up being evaluated as. Not saying you or anybody else has this type of dog, just saying 99% of people think they have something they really dont have and end up painting these little pretty pics in their mind. I do stand by the equipment fixation though and never will change mind on that. I have and have also assisted in evalutaing not hundreds but a good chunk of these dogs for real life and very, very few made it through the hidden suit / sleeve and pressure & punishment that was applied:-o.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Good GOD, Master of the Obvious!:-k BTW I own a tactical suit for a reason, IMO just a hidden sleeve won't cut it if you are really going to test. :-o


Kyle thats why I mentioned the suit as well bud. not sure if your being sarcastic or not, but I'm being serious here and trying to help some folk out here that might have doubt or question in their mind. Not everybody has the suit but might have the sleeve which is better than nothing. But agree the suit would be more practical for the test sir.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Harry,
> The junkyard dog IS the one that will bite when you're not home, it IS the one that will bite a friend over for coffee etc. Do you (not you but the general you) REALLY want a dog that bites when you're there or not? This is the dog you need. Most people on this board would washout this dog for nerves or whatever but this is the dog that no matter what you do , act calm, act aggressive, whatever, it's biting because it's thin nerved and has no thresholds. The other shit is just bullshit. I'd bet anything that even some people on this board that are pretty sure their dog will bite a stranger in the house that enter calm and collected would be very surprised at the dogs reaction, VERY surprised. Most folks wash out the nervy ones and prefer the disney thing.
> 
> I


I don't agree with what you say regarding that the dog bites solely out of nerve here...

I've had a gsd that regarded his house and property and the surrounding area as HIS patch, I have a few reasons why I think that. One scenario being, I had been away for a month and the dog was living at the family home in the care of my father mainly. When I entered the back yard, there was no barking from the house particularly from the dogs lookout spot from the landing where he could view all activity from, he was not there, I thought someone must have him out. It turned out no-one was home and the door was locked so I climbed in the scullery window I knew to be unlocked, and proceeded on through the kitchen/dining room. As I crossed the room and was turning the door knob I thought I heard a slight shuffle behind the door AS I was opening it, it was split second stuff then as I realised it was the dog after I had started to open the door. I screamed his name as the door was opening and he was on lift off, he did launch at me but had recognised me prior to actual contact and it was fine....but I was very shaken.

I've seen him do this on at least another couple of occasions.... like my brother coming in thinking it fun to 'wind up' the dog and he never did it again.... the dog would launch for the face/throat area.

This dog wasn't nervous.... I loved him to death but I had him put down (few bites under his belt), he was just too dangerous to live at my family home.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I don't agree with what you say regarding that the dog bites solely out of nerve here...
> 
> I've had a gsd that regarded his house and property and the surrounding area as HIS patch, I have a few reasons why I think that. One scenario being, I had been away for a month and the dog was living at the family home in the care of my father mainly. When I entered the back yard, there was no barking from the house particularly from the dogs lookout spot from the landing where he could view all activity from, he was not there, I thought someone must have him out. It turned out no-one was home and the door was locked so I climbed in the scullery window I knew to be unlocked, and proceeded on through the kitchen/dining room. As I crossed the room and was turning the door knob I thought I heard a slight shuffle behind the door AS I was opening it, it was split second stuff then as I realised it was the dog after I had started to open the door. I screamed his name as the door was opening and he was on lift off, he did launch at me but had recognised me prior to actual contact and it was fine....but I was very shaken.
> 
> ...


Maggie hate to say it but thats exactly what i was talking about in a earlier posting. Not the right candidate for a dog to protect or maybe could of been the right one for the home, You admitted to putting the dog down for the exact reason. Like I said the dog should not have acted in that manner if not told so. Because of the lack of training the dog is no longer around. Like I said earlier not acceptable and a sad situation. More time should of been put into that dog instead of putting it down or put with somebody that could of fixed that un desired behavior and was capable of handling the dog in those mannerisms. Sorry to hear about your dog though. Unfortunately its the dog that suffers for these reasons when it reallt comes down to the handler / owners responsibility to be able to control the dog and read the dogs body language ahead of time to avoid these things from going on.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I agree Harry... this was in the '80s and he had been my first gsd, I've had three/four since and they've all been 'shitters' in comparison. He had been a biting machine from six weeks old, in the right hands I have no doubt he would have been a very good dog although he was a very good dog !


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Wasnt referring to you. just generally speaking. I have friend that was mugged and robbed with her SCH III dog onleash at her side. I wish that person would try it again, the dog now has the tools he needs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've seen the looks, tried more than a few clubs when my dog was younger. I'm quite happy with my trainer who isn't affraid of a dog that will bite for real and actually prefers them. I lean towards clubs that are open to working more than 1 venue and more than 1 type of training method. I'm all for throwing everything (including the kitchen sink) at a dog at training.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I had meant to add in my last post...

My father whilst looking after my dog believed a dog should think for itself and actually developed this behaviour the way I see it, but not in the conventional way. He would take the dog out at midnight (when there was no-one around), down by the docks as we lived on the coast, lots of good hunting, the dog hunted every night in life and got a good workout.

There was not a single burglary/crime case in our place the whole time that dog was in residence.... 
I put the dog down because I didn't trust others to look out for him when I wasn't there, the dog wasn't that difficult to control.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I once had a presa that was rank dominant and socially aggressive. This dog bloodied me up over a pig ear on the ride home and it was 6 weeks old. the dog was hitting the fence at 5 months old. He was a very sharp dog with thinner nerves, the perfect GUARD dog. This dog's nerves were good enough to withstand the pressures of SERIOUS work and could handle gunfire etc etc. His bite was about 1/2 mouth most of the time, but he never once ran on a bite, regardless of what was happening. He occasionally would pop off and jump back on, but suprisingly never did this under extreme pressure.
The dog was fukkin nuts, but one of the best dogs I've owned. He had very forward active aggression, bite first, bark later. If someone knocked on the door he literally chewed on the knob trying to open it to get to the person. Me and that dog took on 4 guys on two seperate occasions (azzhole roomie that stole someones stuff and fukked some guys girlfriend, bringing these guys to MY house.) The dog had 2 live bites in these situations. I met one guy later in life that said he almost shot me. He was one of the guys that I chased off, he was sitting in the car with a gun, and took off cause the crazy guy with the crazy dog was at his car trying to open his door (he shouldnt have parked on my lawn and let his buddies try to kick my door in.) This dog was highly trained and under control. He was insanely food aggressive, I fed him only small handfuls, if you put food in his bowl, he would take anything he could find and "hide" his food...rugs, paper, shirts, socks, whatever...and then proceed to "guard" his food like he was a prison inmate. I could trust this dog out around people as long as the people "behaved". He was OK as long as people did not try to get his attention too much and only gave him a quick pet if he came around them. Most of the time he just layed around staring at people, waiting for them to do something that warranted him to attack them. There were 3 accidental bites as an adult, He would stay behind a dutch door in the kitchen and was trustworthy with this as long as normal stuff was going on in the house. One bite took place while I was in the bathroom, my roomies dad decided to go into the kitchen to put his dishes in the sink with the dog while the dog was eating, after i expressly told everyone to stay out of the kitchen while the dog was eating... i heard the dog growl, i heard the guy yell at the dog, and then I heard the guy screaming. The next bite took place when a friend of mine walked in the side door while the dog was locked in the kitchen, after being told to come in the front door. The last time was the worst, I took the dog for walks every morning at the park, I opened my rear door of my car with tinted windows and let the dog in the back seat. I instantly heard screaming and all hell breaking loose. Apparently a relative of my neighbor was drunk and crawled in my back seat to sleep it off. I did not know he was in the car. the guy was bit 5-6 times in various places and was pretty messed up, I did feel bad for all these incidents, but they were all HUMAN errors. I got in a car accident and was in the hospital with a house full of dogs. Unfortunately this one was loose in the house and my family could not get into the house to take car of the other dogs, my dad had a great idea to use a pole from the pool vacuum and lower a BUCKET of food into through the window, after that it was over. I told them to call animal control who came out and used 2 snare poles to get him in the truck, he was put to sleep. I lost a great dog that day, but after he was out of the house my family could take care of the others for me. He did learn to tolerate and even slightly obey my roomie as long as the guy was smart about it, but he was not a family type dog at all. These traits were very apparent at a young age, I told the breeder after the puppy test that these dogs were gonna be killers, the whole litter was nuts, put em on their backs and they all tried to eat you, not outta fear either, at 6 weeks. I told her only sell to very experienced people. I got a call when the dog was 7 months old and she was offering me 2 males for free that were returned to her because they attacked their owners. Most people would think these types of dogs were insane, unpredictable. He was very predictable and not insane, just a dog that required special precautions and a lot of OB and control. This dog never even growled at me after 3 months of age. The great thing was he would guard any space. I could take him to your house and he would guard it immediately as his own. The breeder put down her male (the father) even though i offered her 4 grand for the dog, as the presa was moving to be marketed as a family dog, and the strong early traits got watered down pretty quickly. All the dogs from this bloodline disappeared quickly, after I lost him I tried to get some more.
That dog was perfect for me when I lived alone or had an adult roomate that could follow instructions. I would not want to own a dog like this currently because of the hassles that come along with these traits, but he was one in a million. The days of the sharp, socially aggressive dogs are pretty much over sadly...The best thing about him was that at night if someone even stepped on my lawn he was going nuts, but never had a false alarm, did not go nuts if people were on the street, only if they came onto my property. He was a rare dog that behaved in ways that one might not expect and was the perfect gentleman as long as people didn't mess with him, his food, or my stuff.
Just ranting....I miss that dog....RIP Ares.....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

addition on ARES.

If you broke in my house, you better have a loaded gun in your hand and be ready to shoot, to save your own azz. Forget using a gun to rob me or intimidate anyone, you wouldn't get the chance.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

to whoever posted this...

This dog is one to respect, I can tell just by the picture...LOL I wouldn't slap him in the face to see how he reacted. Some dogs just have the "look" in their eyes.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Kyle not saying anyone particular person said anything about fear I'm using it as a example of what most these dogs are and end up being evaluated as. Not saying you or anybody else has this type of dog, just saying 99% of people think they have something they really dont have and end up painting these little pretty pics in their mind. I do stand by the equipment fixation though and never will change mind on that. I have and have also assisted in evalutaing not hundreds but a good chunk of these dogs for real life and very, very few made it through the hidden suit / sleeve and pressure & punishment that was applied:-o.


True Harry, I have done many simulated home invasions with bite trained dogs, unless trained IN THE HOME, many do not bite. even fewer bite if no threat is made to the dog itself. Nobody comes in your house in a bite suit screaming and knocking stuff over on purpose...LOL. and even if they do initially bite, it is a very different picture to a dog once the "kids" gloves come off and they have a real fight on their hands, even a bite trained dog.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> True Harry, I have done many simulated home invasions with bite trained dogs, unless trained IN THE HOME, many do not bite. even fewer bite if no threat is made to the dog itself. Nobody comes in your house in a bite suit screaming and knocking stuff over on purpose...LOL. and even if they do initially bite, it is a very different picture to a dog once the "kids" gloves come off and they have a real fight on their hands, even a bite trained dog.


There have been alot of good points (and some not so good) in this thread. But to me the phrase IN THE HOME says it all. The vast majority of us want to think that we have at least one dog that would protect/defend during a break-in,etc. But unless the dog is trained in the home, car, whatever, ther is NO way to know for sure, and I hope to God none of us ever has to find out. I'm really not trying to be argumentative, that's just reality. Dogs do know the difference between how they are supposed to act on the training field (i.e., it's ok to bite) and how they are supposed to act in the home, where 95% of dogs are taught to tolerate strangers and behave themselves. Some have made the point that the dog should be the pet until told otherwise, and I think that's a fair point. When I'm home, you act nice until I tell you not to be. But then how does the dog react when you're not home. Unless you train for that scenario, no one can say for sure. Sorry, the neighbor ringing the doorbell and telling you they heard your dog bark like hell does not count. I've got a 8 pound mini doxie that does that and he'll lick you to death once you're in the door. One of my mals is a great watch dog, barks like and idiot at everything. But he won't bite. My shepherd will bite if someone comes in when we're home, but I doubt he would if we were not in the house. He's not been trained for it. If you don't train for the scenario, I'm not convinced anyone can say for certain, unless you have one of those meaner than hell junk yard dogs.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> to whoever posted this...
> 
> This dog is one to respect, I can tell just by the picture...LOL I wouldn't slap him in the face to see how he reacted. Some dogs just have the "look" in their eyes.


 
That is a great pic, no denying that dog has a try me look on his face! There is also no denying the Dane bark. My female has a bark that few other dogs have, especially when it's not just a "hey who's that walking by on the sidewalk" bark, but the one when someone she doesn't know comes to the door, where she's lunging as she barks and the little strip of hair raises up from her neck to her tail, and there's that little extra intensity in her sound. 

There is a thread going on at a pet forum I belong to. It comes up once every couple months, people want a dog that "protects". The problem is, I think their definition of protect is different than what we might think here. Many of them say they have dogs that have protected them. Then you find out that their definition is the dog barks,growls, hackles, shows teeth, and whoever was giving them a hard time backs down. Now, in a way, that is protecting them, but none of them have ever had the threat go a step farther and challenge the dog, maybe even take a fear based "get away from me" bite and keep coming. My definition is the dog will engage and sustain the fight until the threat is neutralized or retreats. All you need is a few seconds to make your escape and get to safety, at that point, the dog has done his job.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Dan Long said:


> That is a great pic, no denying that dog has a try me look on his face! There is also no denying the Dane bark. My female has a bark that few other dogs have, especially when it's not just a "hey who's that walking by on the sidewalk" bark, but the one when someone she doesn't know comes to the door, where she's lunging as she barks and the little strip of hair raises up from her neck to her tail, and there's that little extra intensity in her sound.
> 
> There is a thread going on at a pet forum I belong to. It comes up once every couple months, people want a dog that "protects". The problem is, I think their definition of protect is different than what we might think here. Many of them say they have dogs that have protected them. Then you find out that their definition is the dog barks,growls, hackles, shows teeth, and whoever was giving them a hard time backs down. Now, in a way, that is protecting them, but none of them have ever had the threat go a step farther and challenge the dog, maybe even take a fear based "get away from me" bite and keep coming. My definition is the dog will engage and sustain the fight until the threat is neutralized or retreats. All you need is a few seconds to make your escape and get to safety, at that point, the dog has done his job.


Dan, you bring up a good point. If the dog does something, whatever it may be that enables you to get to safety, did it do its job? And I realize that a person's answer depends on their definition of the word "protect". I agree with you, I want a dog to stay in the fight until the threat is gone. So we sort of get back to that age old point of a dog not being your last line of defense.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dan Long said:


> That is a great pic, no denying that dog has a try me look on his face! There is also no denying the Dane bark. My female has a bark that few other dogs have, especially when it's not just a "hey who's that walking by on the sidewalk" bark, but the one when someone she doesn't know comes to the door, where she's lunging as she barks and the little strip of hair raises up from her neck to her tail, and there's that little extra intensity in her sound.
> 
> There is a thread going on at a pet forum I belong to. It comes up once every couple months, people want a dog that "protects". The problem is, I think their definition of protect is different than what we might think here. Many of them say they have dogs that have protected them. Then you find out that their definition is the dog barks,growls, hackles, shows teeth, and whoever was giving them a hard time backs down. Now, in a way, that is protecting them, but none of them have ever had the threat go a step farther and challenge the dog, maybe even take a fear based "get away from me" bite and keep coming. My definition is the dog will engage and sustain the fight until the threat is neutralized or retreats. All you need is a few seconds to make your escape and get to safety, at that point, the dog has done his job.


I've heard hundreds of stories about dogs that will "protect" for sure...they know this because their husband wraps a towel around his arm and the dog "bites" it. or they mock fight with their BF and the dog charges up between them and growls, or they wrestle with their kids and the dog gets in the middle of it.....or they say "get him" and the dog runs up and barks at their friends....or "he bit my neighbor" through the fence. or he bit my daughters BF as he was running out of the house....lol

Like I said, most dogs will try to "protect" as best they can give their genetics and training, this is no way means they will be successful in protecting anyone or anything, for some dogs its a quick bark or two and then high tail it outta there. For others its a bluff charge and thats it. 

I have used dogs to defend myself, sometimes even offensively (meaning I was not under immediate dire threat of severe bodily injury or death.) I think that the definitions vary greatly. I have a strict standard to label a guard or protection dog.

People should realize that even with a trained dog its still not a certainty.
You don't really know until you know.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Pardon me, didn't read this whole thread, too much what if's but........

I just can't see leaving my mali/dutchie loose in the house unsupervised to find out! LOL

I am willing to say YES HE WILL BITE, but that's only because whoever comes in is interupting him from tearing apart the couch......


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm probably one of the few who has experienced this scenario for real. Six dogs, two of them with plenty of civil work. Somebody broke into my house while I was home and nothing happened. Maybe it would have been different if they were alone but I don't think so. 

Since we have done several bite sessions in the house and at first both dogs were very weak and didn't want to bite in the house. Its not an issue now.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Guardian breeds, house breeds, hunting breeds, etc... , who gives a shit. If the dog has no formal training wheter small or large, intact or not it dont make a bit of fringing difference. Dogs if not worked and trained properly are going to be nothing but sissy's. If the dog is not conditioned and trained for these type of scenarios very few dogs in this world will step up to the plate and handle business. Look hom many dogs I have seen in the past that are bad ass in most eyes but would fail a food refusal in a heartbeat."

_I would have liked to see this video, with the owners of the dogs there- and I agree that most dogs need to be properly trained, but like anything that is not 100% -and think dogs will definately act differently when their owners or family are involved. A few years back I trained a GSD- obedience only-family didn't want anything to do with protection or bite work, a few years later, this couples little girl was in the back yard playing, dog was in the house, owner across the street talking with the neigbor, heard the little girl calling for the dog but the owner initially didn't think much of it, until the dog came crashing through the front window, running around the house-the owner and neighbor went running following after the dog, to find the dog stopping a dirtbag from taking the little girl out the back yard down the canal bank....dirtbag to hospital,medical clearance then to jail, little girl safe, dog got a real bone that day and a steak for dinner.....a dog with no formal protection training, but definately had a bond with this child-this one definately not a sissy


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## virginia reed (Mar 10, 2009)

I bet my Neo would.

I got her from the shelter but i bet if they knew how she really was, they would have pts.

I just adore her - she's good with my cats and just a real benevolent bully with all the other dogs.

Doesn't fight or bite the other dogs but wants to be in control of me at all times. Can be annoying.

Hey, she's a guard/protection breed - it's in her blood. i love to see it.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Pardon me, didn't read this whole thread, too much what if's but........
> 
> I just can't see leaving my mali/dutchie loose in the house unsupervised to find out! LOL
> 
> I am willing to say YES HE WILL BITE, but that's only because whoever comes in is interupting him from tearing apart the couch......


Thats another good point brought up by Mr. Butler here, how many of us can honestly and truthfully leave these high drive wack jobs loose when we are not home to even protect the house.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats another good point brought up by Mr. Butler here, how many of us can honestly and truthfully leave these high drive wack jobs loose when we are not home to even protect the house.


I can and do! I have to close off the bedrooms and can't trust both together loose in the house. One or the other has to be crated. One dog loose is okay for some reason. The longest period is 5 hours so far.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I can and do also. Two are llth generation dogs and one is a 10th generation and they are all terriers. I can leave them in the house with hot dogs on the coffee table within easy reach and they will be there when I get back. Why should the dogs think they can be any different when your not home than when you are? I don't have to leave them in the house when I leave. I do it because I can. If dogs can't be reliably trained to be left in the house, what makes eveyone think the same level of training is going to make them bite any better than any other dog when under the gun , so to speak. Just a thought.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm interested in how you determined the ratings on #1, 2, 5, and 6.
> 
> Also, how much is too much prey drive?
> 
> How would you describe too much prey drive?


The numbers are just the 6 dogs we have here now in no particular order.

Prey drive is a pleasurable experience for a dog--chasing, catching, biting, killing. Otherwise, wolves, coyotes, wild dogs etc wouldn't hunt. They would become more a scavenger type animal rather than hunter--they also scavenge but prefer to hunt & eat fresh prey.

When I say "too much" I mean a dog that sees no danger. A dog with huge prey drive--these dogs do very well with distractions in sport because they see no danger so they appear to be courageous going through all types of things without any sign of fear. The more prey drive, the more they see no danger. Most of these dogs are very sweet & wouldn't think of biting anyone.

A dominant dog with very high prey drive & is the most dangerous I think. We have 2 dogs here--both related. One of them is the SchH dog & one of them is a relative of his we rescued at 5-years-old. The SchH dog is dominant with moderate prey drive--he will protect & he is always aware & watching when we're out. He is easily controlled. The rescue has HUGE prey drive & sees no danger. This dog is extremelly sweet--he's obedient--but get between him & his ball--WATCH OUT. I think he will protect at home but this is something that will never be tested.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Boston Terrier, Doodle Bug, Will eat you alive . he is a no joke.


West Highland White--fierce!
Chihuahua--monsters!


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Does anyone else think the opposite? like me,I am not so concerned if the dog would protect me. But I think about this every once in awhile...If anyone ever tried to hurt Addie. I would stop at nothing, to make sure they had to drink at least a few meals through a straw.


The worst thing I can think of is that one of my dogs bite someone. We do everything to keep them safe. I don't want them hurt by some idiot criminal & I don't want them labelled vicious. We are their protectors not vice versa. All I want is barking & a display--I would never send them to bite.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> A dog that is protective in a home or car is all great and crap, but how do you know the dam dog is biting out of the pure unknown and reacting out of fear. Why own a dog to protect the home that will bite out of fear thats BS. Dog that bites out of fear will probally bite a friend over the house for a cup of tea ( thats not acceptable ) that moves to quick or spooks the dog. True dog to protect home should be able to be turned on when you leave the home and then turned back off. Dog should be nothing other than a house pet unless told otherwise with the exception of training if a threat arises, then the dog should react out of his training. Any other type of dog to protect the home outside these parameters is nothing but dangerous to everyone in that house and a pure liability to everyone that comes over to visit. No ifs ends about it. The only other thing I have seen is I have a budddy up north that use to have a business. He would drop dogs of to businesses and pick them back up before they open ( not even the dam owners can get in their own business ), basically a dangerous junk yard dog. Very few and far in between need a rarity like this. Thats why he no longer does this type of BS anymore.


Has anyone ever heard of a RIGID WATCHDOG? I never had until I read about it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=DA...resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> The worst thing I can think of is that one of my dogs bite someone. We do everything to keep them safe. I don't want them hurt by some idiot criminal & I don't want them labelled vicious. We are their protectors not vice versa. All I want is barking & a display--I would never send them to bite.


Sue, we are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this. I take good care of my dogs and I dare say, because I'm retired, spend more one on one time with them than most. I don't want them hurt by a criminal.

On the other hand I hope the guy I referred to in the other thread is a hurtin dude today. Maybe he will think twice before he nails his next victim. That makes me feel really good.

I don't have to be concerned about any vicious labeling here. If the dog is too screwed up somebody will just shoot it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats another good point brought up by Mr. Butler here, how many of us can honestly and truthfully leave these high drive wack jobs loose when we are not home to even protect the house.


Not me...This particular dog is not what I would call a home protector, we have tried, this dog falls into the home destroyer category, even so we have cats, the dog was not raised at my current home and is NOT good with cats...If I am there she won't eat them but the urge is there....

I suppose it could done if the cats were locked up, and I spent a huge amount of time working on the other issues, not worth it to me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> When I say "too much" I mean a dog that sees no danger. A dog with huge prey drive--these dogs do very well with distractions in sport because they see no danger so they appear to be courageous going through all types of things without any sign of fear.


I see what you are saying, I just don't define it the same way, I see this as being in the dog's nerve set. Totally separate from the prey drive. Strong nerved High prey dogs should IMHO should be exposed to defense much earlier than other types, otherwise dog can be locked up into prey.

It takes a lot of tough work to see how one of these dogs copes with defense later in life. 

I remember recently charging up a dark hallway of an empty strip mall we were working at with two jugs o rocks, a terrorist hood on, lol and trying my best to crack into the defense of a SCH III GSD that was 7 yrs old. All the "tricks"did elicit an impressive PREY bark.

I am not the greatest agitator in the world, but I know what I am doing, this dog needed to be physically "manipulated" to see any defensive reactions. He was locked up for sure.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, sounds like a junkyard dog. Only thing you "can" count on is he will bite. Oh, and destroy the house. I am mystified as to what good are these dogs as protection dogs if the owner cannot train them to the point of being loose in the house without supervision. Seems pretty contradictory to have crate the dog whenever the owner leaves and then talk like he would bite because he has had some minimal bite training. Having a dog in a crate is no different than having a gun locked in a safe at the other end of the house. Both are useless. Seems to me a very large part of being a protective dog would be to teach them the manners to be where they are needed. For this very reason the pet dogs, many times are more of a deterent than the trained dog. Especially of there is some size to the dog. Most people do not what to find out if the dog will bite and I have seen a lot that will.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, sounds like a junkyard dog. Only thing you "can" count on is he will bite. Oh, and destroy the house. I am mystified as to what good are these dogs as protection dogs if the owner cannot train them to the point of being loose in the house without supervision. Seems pretty contradictory to have crate the dog whenever the owner leaves and then talk like he would bite because he has had some minimal bite training. Having a dog in a crate is no different than having a gun locked in a safe at the other end of the house. Both are useless. Seems to me a very large part of being a protective dog would be to teach them the manners to be where they are needed. For this very reason the pet dogs, many times are more of a deterent than the trained dog. Especially of there is some size to the dog. Most people do not what to find out if the dog will bite and I have seen a lot that will.


Those couple of things puzzle me too. What good is a crated dog at home? I also have ZERO doubt either one of mine will bite someone trying to enter the house if I'm not around. It is hard enough trying to control them if I am here, especially the female.

I'm working hard on getting to the point where they both can be roaming free in the house. They tend to wrestle around and knock crap over.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I see what you are saying, I just don't define it the same way, I see this as being in the dog's nerve set. Totally separate from the prey drive. Strong nerved High prey dogs should IMHO should be exposed to defense much earlier than other types, otherwise dog can be locked up into prey.
> 
> It takes a lot of tough work to see how one of these dogs copes with defense later in life.
> 
> ...


I take it this is to test the dog, but, what is a "Prey bark?" My dogs have high prey and they don't bark at all most of the time. I don't see them as recognizing a danger to themselves with game or people. The only time they have gone after people had zip to do with any saftey for themselves. It was triggered because they perceived there was a threat to me. In these situations, they are always silent as they move in with the eyes locked on target.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I take it this is to test the dog, but, what is a "Prey bark?" My dogs have high prey and they don't bark at all most of the time. I don't see them as recognizing a danger to themselves with game or people. The only time they have gone after people had zip to do with any saftey for themselves. It was triggered because they perceived there was a threat to me. In these situations, they are always silent as they move in with the eyes locked on target.


 


Or keep quiet as a mouse so they keep on coming in....


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

My dog has distin ked prey and defensing barks. The prey is higher piched tone, while defensive is very deep and rapid. It's really a completly different bark and easily distinguished.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Those couple of things puzzle me too. What good is a crated dog at home? I also have ZERO doubt either one of mine will bite someone trying to enter the house if I'm not around. It is hard enough trying to control them if I am here, especially the female.
> 
> I'm working hard on getting to the point where they both can be roaming free in the house. They tend to wrestle around and knock crap over.


Leaving them in the hpouse requires the old time method of training Lee. Thismis why most can't go to town and leave their dogs loose. It is the punishment and reward system. IWe don't work on the premise that I amj the alpha dog. I am their god. If I come home and they have the garbage bag ripped up or they have chewed my boots up, or those hot dogs are gone. they know I am going to bring fire and brimstone down on them. Which is what happens the forst few times. Then they figure out if they just lay down and relax while I am gone, they can enjoy my return and they will get those hot dogs without the grief. They don't like being snatched up by both sides of the collar with me screaming in their face. One of the dogs is a young dog and he has been in the house with me gone since he was about 5 mo. He was raised outside until after 3 mo. It doesn't takem long. You can't control what a dog is going to do when you are not there if they don't realize there are going to be some severe penalties for screwing up. Picture this. I turn several dogs loose for a hog hunt here in cattle country. They are working a couple of miles out where I have no control of what they are doing. They come across some cows with calves. I have to be pretty darn certain they are going to leave those calves untouched even though they know I am not there. Only one thing works in such situations.... the fear of getting caught. The inability of being able to mete out the correct punishment is why people can't leave their dogs unattended in the house today. But they think they can train them to bite reliably in any situation. I don't buy it. By the way, this corporal punishment is not beating them, it is usually snatching them up off the floor and raising their face right up to mine while I make it really clear that I am not happy. They try to bite me and it will be real physical real fast.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, sounds like a junkyard dog. Only thing you "can" count on is he will bite. Oh, and destroy the house. I am mystified as to what good are these dogs as protection dogs if the owner cannot train them to the point of being loose in the house without supervision. Seems pretty contradictory to have crate the dog whenever the owner leaves and then talk like he would bite because he has had some minimal bite training. Having a dog in a crate is no different than having a gun locked in a safe at the other end of the house. Both are useless. Seems to me a very large part of being a protective dog would be to teach them the manners to be where they are needed. For this very reason the pet dogs, many times are more of a deterent than the trained dog. Especially of there is some size to the dog. Most people do not what to find out if the dog will bite and I have seen a lot that will.


Don not sure what you are talking about. 

The old dog (described earlier in the post) had the junkyard mentality with good house manners. He was crated minimally, most when me and whatever girl I brought home were "wrestling" in bed, as he took that as a threat to me.

He did have inherent traits that were controllable but never "changed". That dog saved my azz and my property multiple times and did bite.
Like I said that dog was not a "family" protector, I had no family, he was a guard dog and PP dog for ME.
His dominance, sharpness, and social aggression was not fit for a family. He was a great dog for that period, lived alone or had an adult roomie that was dog smart. never had problems with him in the house.

The dutchie I currently own (which is not able to be left in house unattneded) (if this is the one you are referring to) is not even close to what I would call a junkyard dog. She is 100% trustworthy around people, "plays" with my gf's 11 yr old 3 times a day, at least 3 days a week. She hardly ever barks at anyone, unless in the kennel or in the car, or in training. I can alert her on anyone even if passive, but she is not looking to eat anyone. 
I did not get this dog for protection, she is still young and I have done my best to not get too carried away with the civil work and haven't blown out the defense. The dog displayed high aggression and fight at about 7 months old, it took only one time with a whip to see what her "natural" demeanor was going to be in the work, which was scary. We have worked very hard to keep her calm and balanced throughout, there is time later for the other stuff. I take the dog with me most everywhere and have never had a problem with unwarranted aggression towards people.

This dog was purchased to be a sport and breeding prospect. 
Not a home protector or house pet. 
I don't think a dog that will shred towels, couches, cats, and other household items as a junkyard dog, LOL I think that is a dog that needs a lot of work to be able to be left in the house unattended, which is not a necessity for me at this time.

I do also see a difference in the application of "protection" dogs. This dog is not a guard dog, not a property protection dog, not left in the house unattended due to the reasons aforementioned, but if she is on a leash with me outside, or happened to be out in the house when we were home and something went down, I have zero doubt this dog would "protect" I could be wrong but I don't think I am. She is pure fight. Show her a fight and shes "all in".


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

What Don, no rolled up newspaper? :razz:

I never bought into the instant correction theory entirely. I'm certain it is better but I've corrected many time after the fact. The shiity behavior stopped so I know it works.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, looks like I have the two"different" dogs ovelapped. I personally see no problem with junkyard type dogs as long as you know what you got and deal with it. Pretty much the way I feel about most dogs. If the owner can actually handle them, I got no problem. When they have more dog than they can handle, it puts others besides themselves at risk.

Lee, discipline after the fact isn't a problem. I don't know who made all this 3 second crap up because if I am gone all afternoon and come home, I can look at the dogs an know immediately one or both have breach our trust. The guilty party is the one slinking around. Even though the transgression may have been committed 3 hours prior, the dog is slinking because he knows exactly what he did and he knows it is time to pay up. This is actually a good sign when they act guilty. If they don't display it then they don't realize what they have done and it is time to back up so they at least understand.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I take it this is to test the dog, but, what is a "Prey bark?" My dogs have high prey and they don't bark at all most of the time. I don't see them as recognizing a danger to themselves with game or people. The only time they have gone after people had zip to do with any saftey for themselves. It was triggered because they perceived there was a threat to me. In these situations, they are always silent as they move in with the eyes locked on target.


Don. Do you do bite work with your dogs? If so what do you do? What type of dogs do you have? Just curious. I have done a lot of work with off-breeds, bull breeds etc.....just want to see where you are coming from....

There is a huge difference in the bark of a dog that is barking out of prey drive, and a dog that is trying to ward off a "threat" to itself, it's property, it's possessions, or it's owner, (defensive).

Your dogs hunting hogs are working in prey/fight. They are not trying to ward off the hog, they are trying to engage the hog. 

I'd be willing to bet that if you staked your dog out and let it see a hog that it could not engage you would see barking. Frustration and Prey...maybe not but I'd put some money on it...

If you're dogs never bark, I am assuming you don't work them that much in bitework. (Could be wrong) I have worked with many bulldogs with strong nerves that do not bark in the work, unless they are put into "defense" drive. I don't mind a quiet dog at all, but they are a rarity.

All dogs will bark in defense drive, unless they are cowering or trying to hide or get away IMHO.



Don Turnipseed said:


> The inability of being able to mete out the correct punishment is why people can't leave their dogs unattended in the house today. But they think they can train them to bite reliably in any situation. I don't buy it. By the way, this corporal punishment is not beating them, it is usually snatching them up off the floor and raising their face right up to mine while I make it really clear that I am not happy. They try to bite me and it will be real physical real fast.


I don't understand the above statement. What does meteing out correct punishment have to do with training a dog to bite reliably? 

In my case it is not the inability to mete out the correct punishment, it is the lack of desire to do so, this dog does not need to be loose in house while unattended. 
I live between 2 different households, both with cats. The dog I own now was not raised inside a home, not raised with cats, it was a kennel dog, outside of the home. 

I could make it work, I have the ability, just not the desire. 

Plus it would do no good to my roomate or my girlfriend if I PUNISHED the dog for killing her cat while no one was home. I would be out a place to live and out a girlfriend most likely.

I do know this much though, there are plenty of dogs out there, dogs of all breeds, but especially breeds/lines that have been bred to "fight" humans, that have the ABILITY to make a person very sorry that they decided to dole out some real physical punishment. 

Good topics...not being condescending, would like to further discuss....


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Joby, this is interesting stuff. This isn't aimed at you because you stated why it is not important for you personally to have your dog alone in the house.

Also you directed this at Don but I want to throw in my 2 cents worth.

I think many people get their heads so into PPD's and other sports they loose tract of the fun of having a dog with house manners.

It's getting dark here in Costa Rica now and my 2 Dutchies are here in the house with me. They will be here for the evening loose.

It took a bit of training to get 2 WIRED dogs to be calm in a home environment but for me it was worth the effort.

It gives me more hours with them and I enjoy them being around.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm working hard on getting to the point where they both can be roaming free in the house. They tend to wrestle around and knock crap over.





Lee H Sternberg said:


> It took a bit of training to get 2 WIRED dogs to be calm in a home environment but for me it was worth the effort.


That was some fast training Lee, about 4 hrs 

I've been trying to find that other topic about live bites, but I think it has been deleted.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Joby, this is interesting stuff. This isn't aimed at you because you stated why it is not important for you personally to have your dog alone in the house.
> 
> Also you directed this at Don but I want to throw in my 2 cents worth.
> 
> ...


The dog does get out time in the house with us. Never left out alone though. 
It's not that much fun LOL... 

Not saying that this breed cannot do all these things but it would not be my first choice for a house dog that is for sure.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> What Don, no rolled up newspaper? :razz:
> 
> I never bought into the instant correction theory entirely. I'm certain it is better but I've corrected many time after the fact. The shiity behavior stopped so I know it works.


You using the rolled up paper?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That was some fast training Lee, about 4 hrs
> 
> I've been trying to find that other topic about live bites, but I think it has been deleted.



When I was talking about the fact that I had one dog crated I meant when they were here without me around. They both are in the house when I am present. I wish it would only take 4 hours to teach them to calm down in the house when I'm not around. Any hints, Gerry. :-D

If you are referring to my topic it is on the second page.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> You using the rolled up paper?


Have not done that since I was a teenager and didn't know any better. I don't even rub the puppies nose in his pee any more when he goes in the house. That was 50 years ago. Times change!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I knew what you meant in those posts Lee, didn't you see the razz thing :razz:

Hints you say...put all your shit in one room and close the door before you go out.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I knew what you meant in those posts Lee, didn't you see the razz thing :razz:
> 
> Hints you say...put all your shit in one room and close the door before you go out.


Is that what that thing means? Holy crap I use that all the time as a smiley face! :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Have not done that since I was a teenager and didn't know any better. That was 50 years ago. Times change!


good LOL.

I bought a mali a few years back. Tested him out with gunfire, a few other things but neglected to bring a stick..

Got him home..the dog did fine with everthing that did not resemble a stick, Dog crumbled when a stick, or anything resembling a stick came out.

I returned the dog because it was useless to me. I asked the guy if he had been hitting the dog, he said no of course not. While in his home I noticed the paper with the tape around it on the table. The guy them admitted he occasionally "swatted" the dog for bad house manners. 

It is amazing to me that people "hit" their dogs with objects for punishment and then expect them to stand up to an agitator or decoy wielding such objects.

Same thing with people that thoroughly dominate their dogs, or kick the crap out of them.

Some dogs can be treated like this, one of the toughest dogs I worked was routinely beat with a pvc pipe to keep him in check, this dog had an actual "battle scream" on the field, scariest thing I ever saw a dog do. But this was another one of those one in a million dogs.

I work plenty of dogs whose owners feel their dog should be scared of them, that they are god. These dogs almost always show major issues in the bitework.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Don. Do you do bite work with your dogs? If so what do you do? What type of dogs do you have? Just curious. I have done a lot of work with off-breeds, bull breeds etc.....just want to see where you are coming from....


Airedale Terriers 



Joby Becker said:


> I'd be willing to bet that if you staked your dog out and let it see a hog that it could not engage you would see barking. Frustration and Prey...maybe not but I'd put some money on it...


If they can't get to the prey and are together, yes, they will fight each other out of frustration. Broke up a lot of free for alls because of this over the years.



Joby Becker said:


> If you're dogs never bark, I am assuming you don't work them that much in bitework. (Could be wrong) I have worked with many bulldogs with strong nerves that do not bark in the work, unless they are put into "defense" drive. I don't mind a quiet dog at all, but they are a rarity.
> 
> All dogs will bark in defense drive, unless they are cowering or trying to hide or get away IMHO.


I never work them in bitework. Jennifer Marshal has a yong dog she is working right now. Had one other a few years ago that was doing well but the person had to get rid of all his dogs because of a personal situation. He was doing well and is now a service dog for the blind.





Joby Becker said:


> I don't understand the above statement. What does meteing out correct punishment have to do with training a dog to bite reliably?
> 
> In my case it is not the inability to mete out the correct punishment, it is the lack of desire to do so, this dog does not need to be loose in house while unattended.
> I live between 2 different households, both with cats. The dog I own now was not raised inside a home, not raised with cats, it was a kennel dog, outside of the home.
> ...


If you choose not to have the dog house reliable for your own reasons, that is one thing. I have seen many people state that their dogs are in crates when they are gone. Maybe they have their reasons also but a large part I suspect is they can't get them to the point they are trustworthy unsupervised. In the example on hunting in cattle country where the dogs are no under our control....I wouldn't be able to hunt with dogs I couldn't make them reliable without being there with them. I see having a dog to protect either the person or the property as useless if they have to be crated. The dog, in my mind to be worth having to protect, has to be house reliable regardless.
Your right, there are dogs bred to fight people that can make a person pay. I won't own a dog that I can't handle. Honestly, most of the dogs in the yard I couldn't handle if they saw me as an alpha dog and chose to challenge me. I am god to them. When they have crossed the line they know it and take the consequences without holding a grudge. When I cross the line, they blow me off and won't work for me till I make it right. It is as much up to me to make sure I am not crossing the line as it is up to them. It works for us.
I do know the dogs and know when they are looking to do bodily harm. I had three dogs in the van one time and got into an altercation with someone. I was hollering out the window and he jumped out and he was swearing also. I never even had time to open my door because I had three dogs going out the window after him without a bark or a growl. I was grabbing dogs by the fur as fast as I could and he was running for his car because all he saw was teeth coming through that window. Scared me as much as it did him. Many dogs posture, growl, bark, or whatever to warn a threat off......I would have felt better had they at least growled.....then I could accept that they were just giving him a warning.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)




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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks Don, 
you answered all my questions except the one about the relationship between being able to mete out punishment and successfully training a dog to bite. 

I train PP dogs, and do some sportwork as well. I have run into many dogs that people cannot handle properly and they do get crated when people are around, and I AM of the opinion that a home protector does no good if he is locked away. This of course is variable, dogs can be let out if there is time, and in my case, if my dog is with me, I would classify her as a source of protection. 

I think that a lot of the people that are on this board do not fall into the category of people you are talking about in regards to the crating though.

A fair percentage of people here have dogs that are of the type that would be too much work to get them reliable in the home unattended, or they don't have the desire to do it. There are a lot of dogs on here that I wouldn't call pets. Many are crated and kenneled and come out for training, trialing, or work. 

Some of these dogs have levels of drives and other traits that you wouldn't understand unless you owned one, and there are a lot of things you won't really understand because you do not do any bitework.

Going by your methods, the god complex, punishment and all can be counterproductive to the training and dangerous with many dogs. Snatch up some of these dogs and some will try to bite. Then you show the dog who is boss and you either get seriously hurt or knock your dog down a couple pegs, do it enough and their potential is compromised. 

Also I don't think that because someone cannot mete out severe punishment on a particular dog, means that they cannot handle the dog. I have owned several dogs that one would not want to physically punish, given the odds that they would fight back, and fight back HARD. This is especially true if you get older dogs, and don't raise them from pups. I handled them just fine.

Most of these dogs and owners probably work on a mutual respect way of training. Some of the stronger working lines produce handler hard dogs, dogs that have no problem coming up the line on the handler if they ask for it.

Some of these dogs, people cannot do their own prey work much past 5-6 months old, cause it will lead to bad things happening. 

There are plenty of dogs that no person can handle if the definition of "handling" means meting out physical punishment on the dog. but yet the are successfully owned and have a great working relationship with their owners.

I do know now why you are not as knowledgeable about some of the bite-work things discussed such as the prey barking and stuff, and I wouldn't ever classify a dog that has not done extensive bitework as a "protection" dog in any sense, a watch dog, an alert dog, a pet..fact is very few of these dogs would stand up to a violent confrontation where the dog is attacked...not insulting you just making a statement.

In my opinion, during most PP work a dog is responding to a threat to itself, it is in the later stages of training the dog also responds to a threat to its owner. Sport work training is different in a lot of ways.

just rambling now I'll shut up.... thanks for the replies...


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Look hom many dogs I have seen in the past that are bad ass in most eyes but would fail a food refusal in a heartbeat.


That's what I thought about food refusal issue. It is the easiest way to get past a well trained dog. Even if it is trained in food refusal, there's no sure way it is 100% poison proof. Cheers.

Colin


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby said,
"Thanks Don, 
you answered all my questions except the one about the relationship between being able to mete out punishment and successfully training a dog to bite."

There are only a few things that punishment is meted out for Joby. Trying to bite me draws physical correction that many are reluctant to do but, they will get pasted in the side of the head for that.....and none to gently. The dog tested me and he definitely didn't like the response.....and I have never had one do it a second time and every one of them became closer with me immediately. They knew what they were doing as well as I did.
Training them for things like being in the house isn't so much physical, other than me snatching them up off the floor and loudly voicing my displeasure. They are never hit but it is always a hands on so they do know there is going to be dues to pay. These situations are mostly for how to behave in the house when I am gone and there is no control, and for things like not attacking calves when I am 2 miles away. When teaching young dogs, I usually use the older dogs to do that and it is all reward based.. This is largely where the bitework would fall. There is no point in punishment if the dogs either don't understand, or are not up to the job. Most today don't agree with my methosd of doing most things with the dogs. but, I get it done and usually in very short time.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Let me ask a question here Joby. It has been mentioned several time about a dog getting roughed up and hurt in an encounter. How do you suppose most pp dogs would react to getting hooked in the ribs and picked up and tossed 8' in the air and 10' to 15' back into the brush by a hog. You think they will come flying back out and grab that hog by the face a second time when they realise the power they are up against? Maybe come back and finish the fight with 3 or 4 broken ribs or finish it with the fluids draining out of the peritonium because they were hooked in the stomach when they were thrown in the air. It is just another day for these dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby said,
"I do know now why you are not as knowledgeable about some of the bite-work things discussed such as the prey barking and stuff, and I wouldn't ever classify a dog that has not done extensive bitework as a "protection" dog in any sense, a watch dog, an alert dog, a pet..fact is very few of these dogs would stand up to a violent confrontation where the dog is attacked...not insulting you just making a statement."

Not taken as an insult Joby, I have heard all this stuff before and may be right to an extent. Let's find out. I am in the center of Calif about 40 miles East of Fresno. Anyone of your choice can swing up here with a bite suit and test your "opinion" . Can do it with each dog if you desire. I told you I wasn't a trainer, but that I can get a dog to bite, suit or no suit. None of the dogs has ever been worked in bitework or even seen a suit. I am always open to a good challenge even if it proves you right, but, I don't think that will happen. Dang Joby, the National Breed Club even challenged me to run these dogs against the best in the bred.....once. They told me talk was cheap....and it usually is. You know anyone out this way where we can try this. I will represent the non protection trained people. LOL 

Of course we will have to set some guidelines and since we want to see if the dog will actually protect, I assume we can do this without a leash. You know dogs get a lot braver when on a leash than off of one as well as I do. We want to give the dog a chance to flee if he chooses. Of course, since I am supposed to be in danger, I assume I can feign defending myself against the person in the suit to see if the dog will actually defend naturally with no training. I am excited. Let's do it! Oh, I have a bad knee and it slows me up. if you find someone that is willing, be sure he understands he does not want to try to flee, If I can't keep up with him, I can't get the dog off because there is no recall. Let me know.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby said,
> "I do know now why you are not as knowledgeable about some of the bite-work things discussed such as the prey barking and stuff, and I wouldn't ever classify a dog that has not done extensive bitework as a "protection" dog in any sense, a watch dog, an alert dog, a pet..fact is very few of these dogs would stand up to a violent confrontation where the dog is attacked...not insulting you just making a statement."
> 
> Not taken as an insult Joby, I have heard all this stuff before and may be right to an extent. Let's find out. I am in the center of Calif about 40 miles East of Fresno. Anyone of your choice can swing up here with a bite suit and test your "opinion" . Can do it with each dog if you desire. I told you I wasn't a trainer, but that I can get a dog to bite, suit or no suit. None of the dogs has ever been worked in bitework or even seen a suit. I am always open to a good challenge even if it proves you right, but, I don't think that will happen. Dang Joby, the National Breed Club even challenged me to run these dogs against the best in the bred.....once. They told me talk was cheap....and it usually is. You know anyone out this way where we can try this. I will represent the non protection trained people. LOL
> ...


Don, took it personally I see. Youre the one that asked what a prey bark was LOL. I wasn't talking about your dogs or challenging you. I said very few untrained dogs will "protect", a general term, not attacking your dogs or your methods. Relax. YOU WIN. I don't care if your dogs protect or not. Hopefully someone else gleaned a little insight from our exchanges, that wanted to learn something about bitework or PP dogs. 

Dude...EVERY dog can be broke down by someone. Maybe someone that lives by you and reads this would like to test your dogs out, but I don't really care. 

I think most PP dogs put up against a hog would fair about as well as if they were throw in a ring with a fighting line pitbull. Not good unless they were of the "gladiator type". It is much different thing doing bitework or hunting large game. It's the human factor, dogs look at humans differently than animals. I have worked many ab's, pits, and presa that were active catch dogs, I'm not an expert but I've seen some video of these dogs catching and most of them approach a human very differently than a hog.

Apparently you are confident in your dogs abilities and I am happy for you. 

I have "tested" hundreds of untrained dogs that did not bite, some that did bite but could not handle any pressure, and can say with confidence that a very high percentage of untrained dogs should not be depended on to save your azz. There are a few out there, sounds like you might have some of them. Congrats...


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Darn, Don, I was so hoping someone would take you up on your offer. And bring a friend with a video camera...[-o<


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Darn, Don, I was so hoping someone would take you up on your offer. And bring a friend with a video camera...[-o<


Me too Anna. Not only do I think it would be darn interesting, but I also think it would be fun. Now Joby thinks I took offense at his remarks but he is far from the only one that works PP dogs that is under the impression that most dogs won't bite. We all had dogs that we could sic on people when we were kids. Now no dogs will bite unless they are professionally trained. The pounds are full of them. 

The difference here is that while I am willing to take a chance to find out, win or lose, I seldom find those that will put their opinions on the line. It ios always safer just talking. Hey, everyone know I do my share of talking....but I will stick my neck out to back it up. I believe they call it separating the wheat from from the chaffe.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Don, took it personally I see. Youre the one that asked what a prey bark was LOL. I wasn't talking about your dogs or challenging you. I said very few untrained dogs will "protect", a general term, not attacking your dogs or your methods. Relax. YOU WIN. I don't care if your dogs protect or not. Hopefully someone else gleaned a little insight from our exchanges, that wanted to learn something about bitework or PP dogs.
> 
> Dude...EVERY dog can be broke down by someone. Maybe someone that lives by you and reads this would like to test your dogs out, but I don't really care.
> 
> ...


Joby, believe me, I am not offended at all. Most every pp trainer is of the opinion that a trained dog is the only dog that can protect. You said, " I wouldn't ever classify a dog that has not done extensive bitework as a "protection" dog in any sense, a watch dog, an alert dog, a pet..fact is very few of these dogs would stand up to a violent confrontation where the dog is attacked...not insulting you just making a statement."
Let's face it, pp dogs are not ever tested to see how they will react when hurt or when pain is inflicted on them. Most of them would cur just like most pet dogs do. Let's call a spade a spade. They are never tested until it really happens in real life.....which is usually never.

" I wouldn't ever classify a dog that has not done extensive bitework as a "protection" dog in any sense" This is the statement that peaked my interest in making a possible challenge. "Wouldn't ever" covers a lot of ground and deserves to be proven one way or another.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don,

"I wouldn't ever classify a dog that has not done extensive bitework as a "protection" dog in any sense" 

This statement means that to me the "label" protection dog is not to be thrown around lightly. To me a protection dog must meet certain high standards in BITE WORK, I buy and sell PP dogs occasionally, and train PP dogs for other people. I need to have rigid standards in what I deal with personally. I would never call an untrained, untested dog a protection dog, period. There are plenty of PP dog peddlers and trainers who have lower standards, that would label certain dogs as PP dogs.

This statement does not mean that I think it is impossible for an untrained to to protect someone. I have owned several myself that would and did, but of these dogs I would only call one a "protection" dog. I would not label a dog a protection just based on the fact that it had bitten someone either.

I think your challenge is pretty ridiculous, but I do hope someone takes you up on it. I too would love to see the video. Hopefully they are a skilled agitator. Hopefully they choose to test each dog individually, off leash. You MIGHT be suprised at what happens. you might not be. who knows.....

I would if I could. I am scared of no individual dog while in a bite suit. this does not mean i think i can break any dog that i can take any dog, it just means i will test any dog without being afraid. I have never been afraid to test any dog whether he outed or not. Ive worked many many Dogs that were way more powerful than any airedale is without fear and so far I've manage to escape without life threatening injuries.
not trying to sound like I am bragging just stating a fact.

its simple suit=no fear, I would do it, even though I have nothing to prove here. I never made any claims about your dogs. 

Hell if no one takes you up on it why don't YOU just get someone out there to do the test and video it. You said yourself you want to see it, that it would be fun. challenge yourself. That would be a sure way to find out, other than relying on someone else to come out and do it without any benefit. Talk is cheap, you are correct about that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, believe me, I am not offended at all. Most every pp trainer is of the opinion that a trained dog is the only dog that can protect.


How many have actually stated this opinion, cause I surely never have in my life.

I do not know any PP trainers that think only a trained dog can protect. I do know that most would never depend on an untrained dog, or recommend to take this route if there is a serious need for a protection dog. And I am wondering how many PP trainers you know?



Don Turnipseed said:


> face it, pp dogs are not ever tested to see how they will react when hurt or when pain is inflicted on them.


Don, untrained pp dogs are never tested, that is certain. 
It is a pretty naive statement you are making that pp dogs are never ever tested to see how they react when pain is inflicted on them. Depends on who is doing the training and what the owner wants.

I am done with the back and forth. Get someone out there to test em, I might be suprised...but so might you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL, come on Joby, If I had a need or interest in PP dogs for myself, I would have gotten into it long ago. Sure, I am curious to see if they can be trained as sport dogs where the point is to earn points and look serious with put being too much so The whole thing is, sport dogs and earning points isn't the point to the discussion. It is about dogs that will actually protect. 



> Hell if no one takes you up on it why don't YOU just get someone out there to do the test and video it. You said yourself you want to see it, that it would be fun. challenge yourself. That would be a sure way to find out, other than relying on someone else to come out and do it without any benefit. Talk is cheap, you are correct about that.


What do you think I am doing here? You notice I never suggested you do it yourself. There is geographics involved and who is doing the talking to consider. 
Joby, It was just for fun, don't worry about it. You don't have to sell me on your credentials and how fearless you are with dogs.....after all there is a reason you wear a padded suit....=no fear. This whole thing was about how all dogs don't fear the bad guy. This had nothing to do with an airedale not being the baddest of the bad because you have handled tougher dogs. I mean, let's face it, I control 20 to 30 of them every day. I would think you could do it. 

Really, what is in a challenge???? Challenges are just an entertainment feature when legs are being pulled. No more, no less.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I think if a person wants a dog that will bite a burglar when nobody is home to give commands its something you need to regularly test your dog for and work with him/her on. 

Some people may just want the dog to bark and do nothing else because of liabliity issues.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Let me ask a question here Joby. It has been mentioned several time about a dog getting roughed up and hurt in an encounter. How do you suppose most pp dogs would react to getting hooked in the ribs and picked up and tossed 8' in the air and 10' to 15' back into the brush by a hog. You think they will come flying back out and grab that hog by the face a second time when they realise the power they are up against? Maybe come back and finish the fight with 3 or 4 broken ribs or finish it with the fluids draining out of the peritonium because they were hooked in the stomach when they were thrown in the air. It is just another day for these dogs.


I think the natural hunting instincts in canines is stronger then the urge to bite a human intruder. Also many dogs will boldly chase unknown dogs off their turf even bigger dogs then themselves. Some dogs can take severe punishment from a feral hog but that does not mean he will stop a intruder of the two legged variety. It means that dog is tough and can dish it out as well as take it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> I think the natural hunting instincts in canines is stronger then the urge to bite a human intruder. Also many dogs will boldly chase unknown dogs off their turf even bigger dogs then themselves. Some dogs can take severe punishment from a feral hog but that does not mean he will stop a intruder of the two legged variety. It means that dog is tough and can dish it out as well as take it.


You are right about the hunting insticts Ben. They are stronger. Canines, wolves etc, hunt for food. They don't tackle stuff where they are going to possibly get hurt unless they have a choice of starving or taking a chance of getting getting hurt. At that point, they have no choice. It is do or die one way or the other. Additionally, normal canines do not target large predators to hunt ever. We have bred them to do that. We have bred the survival instinct out of some breeds. Additionally, some dogs can take severe punishment because they have been bred to have extrodinary pain tolerances that most dogs can't match. These high pain tolerances keep them in the fight even with severe injury even though they had the chance to flee. Most will flee otherwise.
Many think dogs are afraid to bite man. As I said, the local pounds are full of dogs that will do it......they just won't do it in an approved style that many desire anhd with control. What seems to have been forgotten is that there are a number of breeds that, when bred for the purpose "they were intended", are naturally very protective.....and since it is natural, it isn't a command only protectiveness.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

You got that right Don, the pounds are full of dogs that will most definitely bite.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

This is not exactly what we've been talking about but it's a story about a Boy and his dog in the backyard. I'm not sure a PPD trainer could train this either so it illustrates the point that either the dog has it or doesn't.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/04/boy.cougar.attack/index.html

*(CNN)* -- One lucky boy in Canada can say without a doubt that he has his own personal guardian angel -- not of the spiritual kind, but of the furry.
On Saturday an 18-month old golden retriever saved her owner from being attacked by a cougar while in the backyard of their home in Boston Bar, British Columbia, about 130 miles north of Vancouver.
The dog -- named Angel -- leaped into action and threw herself between her owner, 11-year-old Austin Forman, and the cougar that was charging at him.
Sherri Forman, Austin's mother, said her son was outside with Angel around 5:30 p.m. gathering firewood from their backyard. She explained that Angel normally runs around and plays when she is outside, but on this afternoon she was behaving differently.
"He had come in at one point to tell me how cute Angel was being because she was sticking pretty close to him in the yard, which was unusual for her," Forman told CNN.
In hindsight she realizes that Angel was protecting her son from an unseen danger.
When the cougar charged, Angel ran to protect the boy.


"She intercepted the cougar," Forman said. "Austin came into the house very upset, and I had to get him to calm down so I could understand what he was saying. Finally he said 'there's a cougar eating Angel.'"
Angel and the cougar fought under the family's deck, while Austin's mother called 911 for help. A constable was in the area and able to make it to their home and kill the cougar quickly.
Forman said when her nephew pulled the cougar's body off Angel, who at first appeared fatally injured, the dog sucked in a "big breath of air and then got up." Ever the protector, Angel "walked to Austin, sniffed him to make sure he was alright, then sat down." Despite receiving a few deep bites and scratches Angel's prognosis is good.
"She had some pretty nasty injuries across the front of her head and neck" said veterinarian Jack Anvik who is treating Angel at the Sardis Animal Hospital. "If there had been enough time for the two of them together the cougar would have probably killed the dog," he told CNN.
According to his mother, Austin is so thankful for Angel's bravery that he "went to town with his grandpa and bought a huge steak for her."
"I feel very good now that we know she's alive and the fact that she saved me and survived is amazing," Austin told CNN.
And Angel appears to be in good spirits while she recovers at the Animal Hospital.
"She's a golden retriever," Anvik said. "They're always happy."


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

i dont know the whole story, but from what i read how do we know the cougar wasnt trying to eat the dog and not even interested in the boy. not saying it didnt happen but who saw it? an eleven year old boy that just crapped his pants?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> This is not exactly what we've been talking about but it's a story about a Boy and his dog in the backyard. I'm not sure a PPD trainer could train this either so it illustrates the point that either the dog has it or doesn't.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/04/boy.cougar.attack/index.html
> 
> ...


You cannot compare a wild animal to a human burglar that is a totally different scene.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I know Ben, but still there are not many dogs that will fight such a large animal.


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## lora andersen (Jan 5, 2010)

I am currious about the differences between a dogs reaction to a human and an animal about to hurt its owner. My girl took on a crazy cow long enough for me to jump the fence. She also feels the kids fear when the pigs get to close to the yard, and chases them off, if any of the pigs nose touches me she takes it down. And just recently we brough home a new dog. He was tied up by the front door, during the introductions she acted as though she was protecting us from this new dog. White teth showing, growling, attacking, when we went back into the house, she stayed at the front door and step as if on guard, this is a door she has never been alowed to enter through, so no she was not just waiting for the oor to let her in:razz:. So I do know that if I am scared or in danger from an animal she will be there, but what about a human? Could my fear trigger the same response? And of couse the next question... if we were not at home to be scared, what would she do? I think nothing, but jump on them in over excitment?
Lori


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

lora andersen said:


> I am currious about the differences between a dogs reaction to a human and an animal about to hurt its owner. My girl took on a crazy cow long enough for me to jump the fence. She also feels the kids fear when the pigs get to close to the yard, and chases them off, if any of the pigs nose touches me she takes it down. And just recently we brough home a new dog. He was tied up by the front door, during the introductions she acted as though she was protecting us from this new dog. White teth showing, growling, attacking, when we went back into the house, she stayed at the front door and step as if on guard, this is a door she has never been alowed to enter through, so no she was not just waiting for the oor to let her in:razz:. So I do know that if I am scared or in danger from an animal she will be there, but what about a human? Could my fear trigger the same response? And of couse the next question... if we were not at home to be scared, what would she do? I think nothing, but jump on them in over excitment?
> Lori


Lori, I guess the answer is go to depend on who you are asking. I personally don't think you will see a difference with a sound dog that is protective. The problem is they are all neither sound nor protective . It isn't possible to really say how an individual dog is going to act without knowing the dog well.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

lora andersen said:


> And just recently we brough home a new dog. He was tied up by the front door, during the introductions she acted as though she was protecting us from this new dog. White teth showing, growling, attacking...


Ok I don't want to jump to conclusions which is why I am asking instead of making a statement... you brought a new dog home, left it tied up outside and your current dog attacked it? Or was she just lunging and snapping? Not to accuse you of anything but I think if this is the way you introduced a new dog into the family you may want to look up some information on how to do this so there is no conflict. Letting your dog be aggressive and take control in this way, when you are not afraid of/ or in danger of this new dog, is not a good start.


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## lora andersen (Jan 5, 2010)

Jennifer, you do not have to worry about the dogs in my care, it is all good! I did have her on a leash, and was suprised by her reaction! I had a hold of her the whole time. She did however get away from me a bit, I was amazed by her strength. I took her into the house to calm down, then took her to the front step and tied them just out of reach from each other, as soon as I was back in the house, she calmed down and wanted to play with him, they are the best of budies now!


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

you can never know for sure
I have had the same conversations with people about other people
you say you could take a life, but you never really know until it happens


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> you can never know for sure
> I have had the same conversations with people about other people
> you say you could take a life, but you never really know until it happens


You can test your dogs to see how they react. I think a dog that guards the home is just that a guard dog....and some dogs just can't do it. Its not the same as a personal protection dog IMO.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There was a show on tv this moring about bear attacks in Ak. Women running down a trail with what looked like a Siorberian. Came around a curve and there were two bear cubs in the trail. They started to run toward her and she let the leash go. The dog did a quick about face and ran. Momma bear showed up and attacked the lady.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There was a show on tv this moring about bear attacks in Ak. Women running down a trail with what looked like a Siorberian. Came around a curve and there were two bear cubs in the trail. They started to run toward her and she let the leash go. The dog did a quick about face and ran. Momma bear showed up and attacked the lady.


Not nearly the same but that happened to me once with a moose. I let the leash go and the dog stayed with her. This same dog would have fit into a yes, to the question presented that started this thread. He did with the home, my truck, the yard, etc. Guys can sometimes be a little weird and creepy with single young girls, I'm honestly glad I had that dog during that time of my life.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There was a show on tv this moring about bear attacks in Ak. Women running down a trail with what looked like a Siorberian. Came around a curve and there were two bear cubs in the trail. They started to run toward her and she let the leash go. The dog did a quick about face and ran. Momma bear showed up and attacked the lady.


Any female with cubs would be the last thing anyone would want to come between, seconded by an adult male Grizz and last but not least an young male black bear.

Dogs can't really help you there.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A friend of mine lost a JRT that thought it could take on a black bear when they came across it in a walk in the Washington State forests. 
Points for protection/courage/heart/gameness/whatever, didn't count much for the dog but it did distract the bear long enough.
That qualified it as a good PPD in my books.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This is why I posted about the incident. Several posters have said that it is more natural for dogs to take on game than humans. There are few dogs that will stand their ground againsts bears and lions. They can't win but they can be enough of a distraction to give a person time to get away. I had a bear on the truck once and a guy wanted to get a picture of his rottie with the "dead" bear. It would have taken a team of horses to even get that dog close to the truck....mush less next to the dead bear. Push come to shove, most dogs are far more likely to protect against a person than large predators. That is the point. Many seem to think people strike fear into most dogs but, you have to see most dogs around bears and lions. If they are not bred with the nerve for it, they are going to cur.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don, 
Some yrs ago we (AKC tracking club) were having a hard time keeping the dogs, mostly show dogs, on practice tracks that were baited with hot dogs. 
Some just hackled up and circled the spot with their tails tucked. Some flat out wouldn't go near the track. My Border Terrier just started screaming and pulling for the woods. All the hot dogs were gone though.:-k
I laid another track and climbed a hill to watch. 
A scrawny little coyote came out of the tree line and ran the track like a he was winning the nationals. Never skipped a beat and picked up every piece of hot dog then ran back in the trees.
We called it a day! :lol:
Now I gotta say, this Border of mine was about the most people and dog friendly little cuss to walk the planet. Just didn't like anything else with fur. ;-)


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Don,
> Some yrs ago we (AKC tracking club) were having a hard time keeping the dogs, mostly show dogs, on practice tracks that were baited with hot dogs.
> Some just hackled up and circled the spot with their tails tucked. Some flat out wouldn't go near the track. My Border Terrier just started screaming and pulling for the woods. All the hot dogs were gone though.:-k
> I laid another track and climbed a hill to watch.
> ...


That's hilarious. =D>:lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

As you have said Bob...."Gotta luv those terriers"


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is why I posted about the incident. Several posters have said that it is more natural for dogs to take on game than humans. There are few dogs that will stand their ground againsts bears and lions. They can't win but they can be enough of a distraction to give a person time to get away. I had a bear on the truck once and a guy wanted to get a picture of his rottie with the "dead" bear. It would have taken a team of horses to even get that dog close to the truck....mush less next to the dead bear. Push come to shove, most dogs are far more likely to protect against a person than large predators. That is the point. Many seem to think people strike fear into most dogs but, you have to see most dogs around bears and lions. If they are not bred with the nerve for it, they are going to cur.


 
Although you may see videos of dogs in the north engaging with these bears the photos while being of a dead bear should show you that it's not practical.

This was about a 2 yr old male, biology people at this time were paying to examine the entrails for some study and this was a legal hunt for the locals. I put my watch there for scale and the head was from the same male.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2589&c=12

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2588&c=12


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Good pictures Gerry. Definitely not what would be more natural for a dog. LOL


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I don't think its that black and white. Dogs like to hunt animals smaller wild animals especially, that doesn't mean they will all be good at it. Hounds are often used to tree bears and lions, doesn't mean they will ever replace the malinois, GSD, dutchies, rottweilers etc in protection, guard type work.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't think its that black and white. Dogs like to hunt animals smaller wild animals especially, that doesn't mean they will all be good at it. Hounds are often used to tree bears and lions, doesn't mean they will ever replace the malinois, GSD, dutchies, rottweilers etc in protection, guard type work.


Hounds are used to "chase" and tree bears. Most will scatter like the wind if the bear comes after them.....unless they are bred for the fight like plott hound. Even many of them with cur. What it boils down, to the way I see it ,is that it is in the breeding and the breed. The dog has the nerve or it doesn't. If it doesn't the best you will do with training is to make it look like it has nerve but you will never be able to put it there through training.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

How come I can't view gerry's pics?


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## Linda Pfonner (Jan 7, 2010)

I had an Australian Shepherd who bit 9 people in his 12 years. Every single time he tried to use eye and body pressure to steer the "bad guy" away from me or my mother, but when the human didn't respond the way sheep would have, by moving away, he leapt in to use his teeth. 

His bites were extremely inhibited: four punctures from his upper and lower fangs. Generally, his incisors never touched skin. A few people had slight rips because they were moving when they were hit. Once bitten, all retreated, and the dog continued to patrol the perimeter of "I said no closer" until leashed and pulled away. 

I never saw him territorial toward people, and when deer and turkey entered the yard he tried to herd them. Squirrels and rabbits were happily chased. He rounded up kids very well (got 60 in a bunch once, and never bared a tooth). He generally barked at stray dogs, but when a neighbor's Rott, dazed on painkillers, wandered into our yard, Trevor was eager to be friends... as long as he could be the boss.

He never had any training but obedience and agility.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Linda Pfonner said:


> I had an Australian Shepherd who bit 9 people in his 12 years. Every single time he tried to use eye and body pressure to steer the "bad guy" away from me or my mother, but when the human didn't respond the way sheep would have, by moving away, he leapt in to use his teeth.
> 
> His bites were extremely inhibited: four punctures from his upper and lower fangs. Generally, his incisors never touched skin. A few people had slight rips because they were moving when they were hit. Once bitten, all retreated, and the dog continued to patrol the perimeter of "I said no closer" until leashed and pulled away.
> 
> ...


 
Anyone who lets there dog bite 9 people should be put down.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Anyone who lets there dog bite 9 people should be put down.


 
That probably all depends on where you live in the world, who comes acalling and why !!

I get what you're saying though.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> That probably all depends on where you live in the world, who comes acalling and why !!
> 
> I get what you're saying though.


You are right. I wonder what her and her mother did to get themselves in a situation needing a dog to bite 9 “bad guys” 
Running a house of prostitutes?


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

why anyone would let a dog with confirmed bite history herd children is very confusing and astounding to me. herding kids with a dog who bites is kind of like getting drunk and handling guns...asking for a serious accident. ](*,) I wonder if one of the 9 "bad guys" was less than five feet tall and still in grade school?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> You are right. I wonder what her and her mother did to get themselves in a situation needing a dog to bite 9 “bad guys”
> Running a house of prostitutes?


 
Maybe they lived in a mud hut and had a prize goat ?? There are lots of variables, we could probably go from the ridiculous to the sublime.

Years back, I used to board my horse at a farm where the farmer had died and his wife took over the running of the farm. She had two ugly Norwegian Elkhounds that would bite alright, they would run on three legs pissing on your car tyres as you drew into the yard, they took a bite from time to time although fortunately, not out of me.

It wasn't a big deal, maybe folks just respected her situation and continued to board their horses there... it was a kind of come in by invitation only deal.


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## Linda Pfonner (Jan 7, 2010)

chris haynie said:


> why anyone would let a dog with confirmed bite history herd children is very confusing and astounding to me. herding kids with a dog who bites is kind of like getting drunk and handling guns...asking for a serious accident. ](*,) I wonder if one of the 9 "bad guys" was less than five feet tall and still in grade school?



NO. He herded the kids on his own; he'd escaped off his tether when the clip snapped. He was a yearling and having a ball.

He nailed the town judge when we moved to the country; he was my lawyer and was walking up behind me up our driveway; Trevor didn't appreciate it. The only men he tolerated were my father and my brother.

Yes, he was screwed up. And I'm a lousy trainer. Why do you think I'm here?! Trevor's been dead for two years: my current dog is a shelter mutt, soft as marshmallow. I'm looking at a GSD or a Doberman, but with a dog that size, I can't risk screwing up like I did with the Aussie.


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## Linda Pfonner (Jan 7, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> You are right. I wonder what her and her mother did to get themselves in a situation needing a dog to bite 9 “bad guys”
> Running a house of prostitutes?


Thanks. I like being insulted by people from whom I am hoping to learn.

The dog herded people away from us. When 'eye' didn't work, he'd use teeth. He aimed for ankles and the back of the calf, though once, to stop a man who was reaching over the dog toward me, he went straight up and punctured the web between the guy's finger and thumb

.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Anyone who lets there dog bite 9 people should be put down.


 
Who the owner or the dog? \\/


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Linda Pfonner said:


> I had an Australian Shepherd who bit 9 people in his 12 years.
> 
> He never had any training but obedience and agility.


So he did have obedience training, yet you still let him bite 9 people??? I dont get it???


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Queensland heelers are a lot lik that. They heel everybody. We used to have a female at the shop that healed everyone that came throught the door. Several people tried to kick her but one of is would put the stop to that real quick because she bit the back of their shoe and never hurt anyone but, she made em nervous. She was bred to do exactly what she was doing. Now, the male queenslands you see a round here are usually in the back of a pick up. The will bite. They enjoy it.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Hounds are used to "chase" and tree bears. Most will scatter like the wind if the bear comes after them.....unless they are bred for the fight like plott hound. Even many of them with cur. What it boils down, to the way I see it ,is that it is in the breeding and the breed. The dog has the nerve or it doesn't. If it doesn't the best you will do with training is to make it look like it has nerve but you will never be able to put it there through training.


I don't think courage on animals and courage on people are one and the same. I've known to many dogs (many of them bulldog breeds) who washed out of protection training or protection sports who went to people that hunted them successfully. And I don't mean they just went and chased something, they were used to catch, getting injured in the process. I've also seen BC's that will take on a bull in a heart beat, latching on and getting pummeled, but would never do protection work. There are also many stories of pit dogs who never cur'd but wouldn't protect a human. One of our neighbors when I was growing up raised hounds that he used to hunt bear and other animals. Some of them would fight the animals, because they'd come back from the hunts torn up, or not come back at all (he'd put them down out in the woods). But many of them were quite timid around strange people.
And the flip side can be true, I'm sure there are many police, PPD, and sport dogs out there that are very good at what they do but who wouldn't go toe to toe with a wild boar, bear, etc. I saw it with a few of my own dogs years ago (20 or so). They were dogs trained for protection work, and they were good at it, but we were camping by a river and a bear came down into camp. They chased him off, but they stayed a safe distance back while doing it, they weren't looking to actually take him on.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't think courage on animals and courage on people are one and the same. I've known to many dogs (many of them bulldog breeds) who washed out of protection training or protection sports who went to people that hunted them successfully. And I don't mean they just went and chased something, they were used to catch, getting injured in the process. I've also seen BC's that will take on a bull in a heart beat, latching on and getting pummeled, but would never do protection work. There are also many stories of pit dogs who never cur'd but wouldn't protect a human. One of our neighbors when I was growing up raised hounds that he used to hunt bear and other animals. Some of them would fight the animals, because they'd come back from the hunts torn up, or not come back at all (he'd put them down out in the woods). But many of them were quite timid around strange people.
> And the flip side can be true, I'm sure there are many police, PPD, and sport dogs out there that are very good at what they do but who wouldn't go toe to toe with a wild boar, bear, etc. I saw it with a few of my own dogs years ago (20 or so). They were dogs trained for protection work, and they were good at it, but we were camping by a river and a bear came down into camp. They chased him off, but they stayed a safe distance back while doing it, they weren't looking to actually take him on.


Definately are not the same. 
There are plenty of dogs that will take on hogs, or bulls, or fight other dogs to the death that will not stand up to a human without training. 

And also plenty of dogs that will stand up to human but will cur out in animal work.

The two are not related at all in my book. can certain dogs dog do both,? sure.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Because a dog has done the same choreography multiple times doesn't tell you he is going to bite. That is pretty much what I am saying. Be satisfied that you dog can get points on the field doing what he has been "trained" to do.....but never assume an untraind dog is a POS and won't bite you because the pounds are full of them. I took a couple to the pound myself. One was dangerous. I/2 pit, 1/4 St Bernard, 1/4 chow. I dropped him off with the stipulation he was not to be adopted out but put down. Lots of dogs there for the same reason.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Because a dog has done the same choreography multiple times doesn't tell you he is going to bite. That is pretty much what I am saying. Be satisfied that you dog can get points on the field doing what he has been "trained" to do.....but never assume an untraind dog is a POS and won't bite you because the pounds are full of them.


Not sure if you are using the "generic you" or specifically talking about my dogs here, but my dogs do a lot more then the same choreographed routine over and over. As far as the family pet goes, I don't discount them, I've met to many that would happily chew an intruder up, personally know a few who have actually done so, and read way to many accounts of others.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It's always generic unless I put a name to it Kadi.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Because a dog has done the same choreography multiple times doesn't tell you he is going to bite. That is pretty much what I am saying. Be satisfied that you dog can get points on the field doing what he has been "trained" to do.....but never assume an untraind dog is a POS and won't bite you because the pounds are full of them. I took a couple to the pound myself. One was dangerous. I/2 pit, 1/4 St Bernard, 1/4 chow. I dropped him off with the stipulation he was not to be adopted out but put down. Lots of dogs there for the same reason.


Don not looking to get into another hoohah here, but no one ever said an untrained dog is a POS. I still firmly believe that one should not "depend" on an untrained dog to "protect" them in a confrontation. It can happen sure, the pounds are NOT full of dogs that will stand up to the stress of biting a man who stands up to the dog and fights back, dogs that will stay in the fight. They are full of dogs that will bite most likely in certain circumstances, but not dogs that will stand up to a man fighting them.

I test dogs all the time, dogs that people think will protect them, it is rare that these dog stand up to a defensive test and bite.

A good decoy can get most any dog to bite him in some form or fashion, does that mean the dogs will "protect" ?? the answer is no.

And maybe some people think that a dog that displays protective instincts and may bite under certain circumstances is good enough for them. But I would never classify these dogs as protection dogs in my mind. 

I "tested" an ab/pit cross recently that was supposedly a maneater, by the owners terms. The dog had bitten his brother in the house and bit another person that came into his yard. This guy would was sure his dog was a killer.

The dog was kept on a chain when outside. I told the guy to chain him up.

I came into the yard and headed straight for the dog who was ferociously lunging and spitting and all that.

once I got about 10 feet away, the dog started to back up but still displayed his "courage". Then when I got to where the dog originally was, he was backed up to the tree, hiding behind it displaying his "courage" still. When i turned to run back out, the dog shot out like a rocket and tried to bite me. 

This is super common. 

The real bite the dog had in the yard happened when a guy came into the yard and was trying to steal a ladder, he didnt notice the dog, and when he did he turned and ran to get away and the dog bit him in the back of the leg. Did he protect the yard? yes? did he bite ? yes? when the guy was running away. Is he a good dog from the standpoint of "protection" 
NO! not in my book.

Most dogs that will bite someone under certain circumstances, do not have the courage to stand up to someone who is willing to take the fight to them.

Again there are SOME, but very small percentage indeed. 

I still stand by my statement that courage and drive on animals is hugely different than on a man. It has been proven many many times....can a dog display equally on both? sure... but very few do.

NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR DOGS. NOT SAYING ALL UNTRAINED DOGS ARE CRAP. just stating the facts as I see them. 

People have varying opinions about the word 'protection' I can see how a lot of these dogs that have a protective instinct could possibly be called protection dogs, even though they dont have the nerves or courage to stand up to a confrontational human, by some people...but they will never be called that by me.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

So, what is it you are saying Joby ?

You have a better chance of a trained dog protecting you, versus a natural protective dog to protect you ? Or that the naturally protective dog is rare ? Or that a naturally protective dog is of little value without training ?

Don't really get your point.

Personally, I would NEVER ever buy a trained ppd in even the most extreme circumstances that I can conjure up. 

PPD is raised.... not trained, if you have the right genetics !


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> So, what is it you are saying Joby ?
> 
> You have a better chance of a trained dog protecting you, versus a natural protective dog to protect you ? Or that the naturally protective dog is rare ? Or that a naturally protective dog is of little value without training ?
> 
> ...


I have to agree Maggie. The training is just to have contol of what the dog brings to the table itself.


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## Gregory S. Norton (Jan 17, 2010)

James Lechernich said:


> Interesting. Were the pets spayed/neutered? Does that have any effect on a dog's desire/ability to bite in this type of scenario?


 
The whole nuetering thing is a myth perpetuated by vets who have no idea about animal behavior.
Neutering or spaying may minimally lessen the drive but does not change the temperament of any dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> So, what is it you are saying Joby ?
> 
> You have a better chance of a trained dog protecting you, versus a natural protective dog to protect you ? Or that the naturally protective dog is rare ? Or that a naturally protective dog is of little value without training ?
> 
> ...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gregory S. Norton said:


> The whole nuetering thing is a myth perpetuated by vets who have no idea about animal behavior.
> Neutering or spaying may minimally lessen the drive but does not change the temperament of any dog.


 HEY! At last, someone who understands!!!!!! Gregory this is the point that I have been trying to tell half brained folks for years. Working dogs are a genetic creation, neutering just stops the creation from continuing. If it's a screw loose dog with balls...it's also the same without. 

My male Bouvier is very strong and protective, a driving force! But at the same time, he understands the pack formation and who is in control. Chop off the man parts and this dog STILL understands.

Possible solutions to stupid folk who don't get it is spay/neuter in THEIR direction...JMO!!!:-k


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Eighteen pages latter, what this comes down to is some dogs will and some won't. You never know unless the dog actually gets tested by a bad guy with no suit or sleeve. ANY VOLUNTEERS?

I think my dogs would go after the bad guy. I'd bet a substantial amount of bucks on the female. She wanted to fight everyone at 12 weeks old. I will never really know for sure until something REAL happens.

The male already showed he would protect the truck but the guy was trying to run. I still think he would if the dude was trying to stop and fight. MAYBE NEXT TIME!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, If you don't know for sure what your dog is going to do in a strange situation, and I don'r iknow what mine are going to do....how do you justifyably make this statement?

"1. You have a better chance of a trained dog standing up to a violent attack yes...is it a guarantee. no, but it increases the odds immensely."

I will agree that it probably true but to what extent??? Immensly may be overstating it. I don't buy that it is due to training anyway. Bite training is more to get points and stuff, what it has to do with is EXPOSURE and letting the dog win. The same thing would be true with protection dog not running from a hog if he had been exposed to it early on and you never let him get hurt. 

The real question now is, since as you said they are always allowed to win, how many of this immense number will stick when they get hit with a 2 x 4. There is simply no way of knowing is there? It's kina like the guy that touts his new hound as the best dog around on bear.....and he will prove it when bear season comes around next year and he gets to try the dog out for the first time.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gregory S. Norton said:


> The whole nuetering thing is a myth perpetuated by vets who have no idea about animal behavior.
> Neutering or spaying may minimally lessen the drive but does not change the temperament of any dog.



Uh...no. Vets CONSTANTLY have to tell clients (typically men), no, Fluffy's temperament is not going to radically change because you removed his reproductive organs. No wonder the inventer of Neuticles is laughing all the way to the bank...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, If you don't know for sure what your dog is going to do in a strange situation, and I don'r iknow what mine are going to do....how do you justifyably make this statement?
> 
> "1. You have a better chance of a trained dog standing up to a violent attack yes...is it a guarantee. no, but it increases the odds immensely."
> 
> ...



Don we agree to disagree. Some people test their dogs is different ways, many do get down and dirty with them, do "tests" and inflict pain. 

nobody is touting anything here just stating opinions. there are no guarantees, we train and test. hidden equipment and muzzle are about as close as you can get.

I agree it is about exposure and a trained dog has a lot more exposure to the job and will perform more reliably under most circumstances. Any dog can be got by somebody.

Bite training for PP work is not for points. Just as Bite training for patrol dogs is not for points. 

Some dogs have it some dogs don't. cant train a dog to be reliable if he doesn't have it. can take a dog that has it and drastically increase the chances with training.

again I see we will disagree to the bitter end, no biggie. I have stated my beliefs, you have stated yours. You have stated you do not do any bitework, so there is no need to discuss further, i'm not gonna argue with you about hunting large game with dogs. 

It is not a natural thing for most dogs to fight humans,but It can be trained. dogs that engage and fight large game are rare as well, but i imagine it comes naturally without much training. No saying one is better than the other, both have their place. But both are totally different.

There is no 100% guarantee that a bite trained dog will engage and fight a man will no equipment, you find out when the need arises, have a good dog, train him right, use hidden equip and muzzle. best you can do. If you have a dog for this purpose it would be silly not to train him, or "test" him at a bare minimum.

one last point and I'm done. 

The challenges to find out by daring someone to test the dog with no equipment are silly, and only are relevant to a trained dog in my opinion. that is what hidden equipment is for. don't know anyone who is gonna take on a well trained solid dog without equipment. 

I have tested many "trained dogs" that fail as well.

An untrained dog should see no difference between a guy in a bitesuit or a guy in a puffy jacket. 

An untrained dog that will protect should bite a guy in a suit no problem. 

An untrained dog has no idea that a hidden sleeve is there and should bite it. 

If an untrained dog will NOT bite a guy with equipment I would NOT depend on him to bite the same guy without equipment, since the untrained dog does not know what equipment is, it shouldn't make a difference to the dog whether the equipment is there. 

He bites or he doesn't. 

The vast majority don't, and very few of those that do stay in the fight if the pressure is turned up or pain is inflicted. Same as testing a dog for the hunt I imagine, just a different application.

Anyone who sees *no value* in training, and truly believes that their dog will bite an aggressive assailant, and is counting on them to do so should at a bare minimum "test" their dogs at least once, by letting them* actually bite*. A sure as shit way to get an idea about the outcome. 

I wish I did live by you, I would love to see the hunting and the dogs. Looks like you have a great breeding program going on there. I would also love to "test" the dogs on a man. Regardless of the outcome it would be a good time....

I would hope we can agree that at bare minimum a "test" should be performed if the dog is serving the function of a PP or Guard Dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Joby - No challenge intended. That was a joke! I didn't expect anyone to take a dog on with no suit or sleeve. [-o<


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, I do agree with quite a bit that you have said. Most of it actually. I even agree that a dog that had actually had the opportunity to get familiarized with biting people will be far more apt more apt to bite them. As far as untrained pp dog being rare that will bite. I find it hard to qualify. Not all bad guys are going to be aggressive with a dog they don't knoiw. I suspect they are pretty rare also unless cornered. A dog protecting his own property or person is more like going to put most people backpedaling from the get go. Most that retreat are going to get bit if the dog stood his ground that far. I will agree that in the "rare" instance some smuck wants to tackle a dog he doesn't know with the intent to inflict harm is also as rare as the dog that will stand his ground. If we do away with the "Not likey to ever happen" stuff. I think the number of dogs that will bite someone on their own property increases "immensly." I think it increases more if ther is a child involved that the dog is protecting.
When I was a kid, we used to have races starting at one end of a block and ending at the far end. About 10 houses backed up to each other with an alley in between. One of us took one side, another took the other side. We ran through all the back yards on the block. We had no idea which had dogs or high fences. It was a real learning experience concerning dogs in the 50's as you jumped into their territory. I do think dogs back then were more likely to bite you with less fear than the dogs of today but that is just more supposition.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby, thanks for expanding!

Do you think it is the same for a dog trained to bite a sleeve or a suit with all that protective material and a very confident decoy (that doesn't ever really get hurt), feels the same to a dog that is dealing with something quite different, like when he bites down on flesh and bone that is not padded.... I get the impression you think most dogs are stupid ? I don't, I respect dogs plus, I raise them from very small in my bed :grin: not so different in principal how you see some African tribes how they raise their LGDs from within the flock and what that entails.


I doubt the dog is being kidded in these situations... that is why I dislike 'conditioning' in a dog I suppose, it beats out the natural instinct, and then he is only as good as you (generic) or who 'trained' him!

Better off with a cardboard cut out! JMO

I will add, I'm not an experienced dog trainer, I did work as a horse trainer and world wide, but I've had dogs around me all my 48 yrs, I don't think dogs are quite as clueless as you would paint them.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Joby - No challenge intended. That was a joke! I didn't expect anyone to take a dog on with no suit or sleeve. [-o<


Wasn't even referring to you LOL, These challenges fly around all the time.

I have taken these challenges quite a few times and have yet to be bitten, and I personally am not that good..lol

I made a good deal of money breaking untrained dogs down on bets. and made some more on trained dogs.

I think what people are not thinking of is the fact that the dog bites is no indicator that he will have what it takes to "fight", when the pressure is turned up..

In training the dog is exposed to a multitude of situations and environmental variances, exposed to different "weapons" and things, he is taught to overcome various challenges.

I know a guy that has deterred several working k9's with a coffee mug! (at seminars)

Even with a trained dog it is pretty easy to deter them if they have not been exposed to certain things. 

A chair, a garbage can lid, a broomstick etc. can break down a good dog that has not been exposed to them. 

The problems start to really show when the dog is successfully thwarted from biting, and get a lot worse when they aren't successful on the second attempt to bite, and even worse on the third if the dog is even trying to engage still. confidence disappears very quickly in dogs that are trying to bite a human.



Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, I do agree with quite a bit that you have said. Most of it actually. I even agree that a dog that had actually had the opportunity to get familiarized with biting people will be far more apt more apt to bite them. As far as untrained pp dog being rare that will bite. I find it hard to qualify. Not all bad guys are going to be aggressive with a dog they don't knoiw. I suspect they are pretty rare also unless cornered. A dog protecting his own property or person is more like going to put most people backpedaling from the get go. Most that retreat are going to get bit if the dog stood his ground that far. I will agree that in the "rare" instance some smuck wants to tackle a dog he doesn't know with the intent to inflict harm is also as rare as the dog that will stand his ground. If we do away with the "Not likey to ever happen" stuff. I think the number of dogs that will bite someone on their own property increases "immensly." I think it increases more if ther is a child involved that the dog is protecting.
> When I was a kid, we used to have races starting at one end of a block and ending at the far end. About 10 houses backed up to each other with an alley in between. One of us took one side, another took the other side. We ran through all the back yards on the block. We had no idea which had dogs or high fences. It was a real learning experience concerning dogs in the 50's as you jumped into their territory. I do think dogs back then were more likely to bite you with less fear than the dogs of today but that is just more supposition.




agreed. but that is what the training is about, if the dog has a serious job to do, you try to train for that guy that will fight the dog. like I said every dog can be broken by someone and the average criminal is not a dog expert, but many know that most dogs are not going to stand up to a fight. If someone has a dog that is supposed to guard something or be counted on to increase your chances of surviving an attack, training increases the success of the task. 

My first dog was a nice rottie, she was very "protective" in my opinion..until I took her to training and saw how easy it was for someone to break her in half mentally. I was very dissappointed and shocked to see how easy it was. She was a good dog had the instinct, even had the nerve to back it up, just lacked the training.

Most PP dogs are family pets, people don't like someone telling them that their dog is crap and get a new one. Most people have no clue how to select a dog for a pp dog. They try to train their existing dog. If someone expressed an interest, we evaluate the dog. If the dog is truly crap and they won't part with it or get an additional dog, we work towards an alert or aggressive bluff to help deter a threat. If the dog is better we do bitework. 
If the people truly express a "need and desire" for a dog that could save thier lives, or is depended on to guard valuable property,I tell them flat out to get a new dog if he is not that good. 

I have had tons of experience with people that say there is no need to train a dog for protection, that they will protect you. 

Probably why I have beaten my head against the computer in this thread. 

Tell that to the clients I have had that have gotten robbed and mugged, or attacked and beaten, most of whom did have dogs with them. 

I even had a police officer interrupt a training group once and tell my clients that they didn't need to train their dogs, that their dogs love them and will protect them. I asked her why the police train their dogs then? and got her card...

After a few phone conversations I did end up going to her house and "testing" her loving dobermans and they did not protect her against a physical assault in her home. well ok one of the two did bite, for a second, after that they both were jumping around watching their owner on the ground getting "beaten" with a whiffle ball bat.

Truth is they will attempt to protect you the best they can. Based on genetics and training...but this "protection" varies greatly.

I also agree that societal influences have greatly diminished the breeding of "real" dogs and the type of (working breed) dogs from20, 30, 40 yrs ago is much different than today.

nice debate, now only if I can stop having the re-occurring nightmare of getting mauled by a pack of Airedales, I can sleep at night.:wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Joby, thanks for expanding!
> 
> Do you think it is the same for a dog trained to bite a sleeve or a suit with all that protective material and a very confident decoy (that doesn't ever really get hurt), feels the same to a dog that is dealing with something quite different, like when he bites down on flesh and bone that is not padded.... I get the impression you think most dogs are stupid ? I don't, I respect dogs plus, I raise them from very small in my bed :grin: not so different in principal how you see some African tribes how they raise their LGDs from within the flock and what that entails.
> 
> ...


Not sure what you are asking and dont care, you obviously have no clue about anything related to protection dogs or their training, or any bitework training. you think decoys never really get hurt!!!! 

Keep your cardboard cutout and I hope it saves your ass some day.

You trained horse worldwide for what purpose? why didn't let them use thier natural instinct, instead of conditioning them?

I don't think dogs are dumb. its the people that are usually.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Not sure what you are asking and dont care, you obviously have no clue about anything related to protection dogs or their training, or any bitework training. you think decoys never really get hurt!!!!
> 
> Keep your cardboard cutout and I hope it saves your ass some day.
> 
> ...


That's ok Joby you actually answered my question there, thankyou. Was your 'other' thread there for my benefit ? Nice pics, thanks for sharing your decoy prowess!

Some folks have a different outlook on things, often they're the kind of folks that are resistant to being force fed :-| what others insist on. This ram it down your throat quality often goes hand in hand with _over excitability,_ it can manifest itself in all kind of weird ways !

I have a different outlook to you Joby based on my own personal experience.... I'll just leave that there with you.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Oh dear....here's another video link.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9zfrbubIzQ


Look at that rockweilder go .... can't be biting to hard though if the guy throws his arm back in the dogs mouth with just a towel wrapped around it.


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