# Tired



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I am tired of all these discussions on here lately. I am tired of all intolerence through ignorance especially directed at my use of the sharpened pinch collar, the fact that I punched my Fila Brasileiro between the eyes. 

I was judged but no one asked any questions of me. No one was interested to know why and how.

A sharpened pinch collar needs only to be tugged gently. The dog's skin will not be penetrated, even with dogs with little undercoat. 

The blunt prongs are regarded over here in Switzerland and Germany as harmful. The blunt prong collar needs to be pulled far more fiercely for the dog to feel it but - they have been known to cause inner injuries to the throat.

I was also disturbed to find that people found that my "punch between the eyes" to be alarming. 

I am a female, knee high to a grasshopper and punching a Fila Brasileiro with a weight of 50 Kilos (you could liken him to a Rottweiler) was not in the least painful to him but it got his attention in a precarious situation.

Nost of you refrained from posting. Those who "raised their eyebrows" didn't ask questions.

I have very rarely treated my dogs unfairly and I resent the implications of non-response or exclamations of my having done it.

Also the unfair attacks on the Swiss Tracking Judge at WUSV 14 and the unsporty behaviour of the American Team disgusted me.

I wish my friends on here well but at the moment have no desire to post.

Gillian


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

1. Seriously??? Come on Gillian don't let them get you down. Anyway I hope you don't mean it and you don't leave us. 

2. You're still letting those who had negative comments about the fact that you used a sharpened pinch and once punched your dog bother you? They weren't there, they are only posting based on their own experiences. So who cares if they like it or don't? This is a forum, people post their opinions, sometimes completely baseless opinions, sometimes helpful opinions, take what you need and leave the rest. I use ecollars and pinches and I used a sharpened pinch on my old Tiekerhook dog - my goodness if I got all butt hurt every time someone made harsh remarks regarding ecollars and pinches I'd never post on any forum.

2. You started a couple threads about Debbie Zappia (who I'm pretty sure was never a member of this forum). I'm not sure why you started them, but you did. Now you are accusing the USA team of unsportsmanlike conduct? Where did this come from? I've seen lots of chatter from everyone BUT team members, who have actually said very little. If you think it's unusual for spectators, whether live or via video, to second guess and critique and disagree with judges, then I don't know what to tell you. Do you remember Lance Collins awarding 100 pts in protection back in 2009? There was TONS of Internet chatter over that, some of it highly critical, but so what, I think every judge knows, right or wrong, fair or not, it comes with the territory, and it's not ever going to change.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dudette, I have no problem with either topics of conversation. I think I posted about the Fila getting a crack between the eyes what I said was 'you wouldn't get away with that over here' because that is a fact, it's a PIA. Not because I disproved of your actions I find them entirely understandable tbh. Timed correctly it is one of the most effective methods I have used, it's just not viable any more I feel. PC twats are everywhere in the UK.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Also I love your no-nonsense approach to training, it's no wonder this forum is turning shit, Dave never posts, Alice has disappeared, Micheal Murphy has evaporated in a cloud of green smoke, you're thinking of leaving......


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I am tired of all these discussions on here lately. I am tired of all intolerence through ignorance especially directed at my use of the sharpened pinch collar, the fact that I punched my Fila Brasileiro between the eyes.


 People will hate. Were you abusive to the dog? I think there's a big difference between abuse and self preservation. Somehow I don't get the feeling you abuse your dog on the regular. You did what you have to do. End of story. How many police dogs get shot by cops when they bite another officer or handler? More than you think.




> A sharpened pinch collar needs only to be tugged gently. The dog's skin will not be penetrated, even with dogs with little undercoat.
> 
> The blunt prongs are regarded over here in Switzerland and Germany as harmful. The blunt prong collar needs to be pulled far more fiercely for the dog to feel it but - they have been known to cause inner injuries to the throat.


 I'm not here to judge the use of sharpened prong collars but to me the fact that you get better results leads me to believe they cause more pain. I may be wrong here but the fact that a regular blunt prong works better than a choker is mostly because they have a higher correction value than a choker....it's just one more rung up the ladder. Again, it's just perception.





> I am a female, knee high to a grasshopper and punching a Fila Brasileiro with a weight of 50 Kilos (you could liken him to a Rottweiler) was not in the least painful to him but it got his attention in a precarious situation.


 Probably hurt less than a good ol flanking I'm sure.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gillian, you need to take lessons to toughen up and come totally unhinged when anyone gives you shit. 

Just hand back a total ass wooping.

I get roughed up once in awhile on here. Who cares? 

You aren't going to have any of those MOFOS over for cocktails and dinnier anyway, EXCEPT ME OF COURSE. ☺


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Gillian, my dogs get punched, kicked or whatever deemed necessary, until proper behavior is obtained. They get walks, raw food and sofa time also. Who gives a damn! I was glad to read you handled things properly and didnt buy into this political correctness bullshit. Stand proud.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Gillian, my dogs get punched, kicked or whatever deemed necessary, until proper behavior is obtained. They get walks, raw food and sofa time also. Who gives a damn! I was glad to read you handled things properly and didnt buy into this political correctness bullshit. Stand proud.


If my dogs went near the sofa they would get punched, kicked, etc. &#55357;&#56832;


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Ah, don't go. Just give a shrug of the shoulders and move on.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm still waiting for my pics of your prong so i can make one
did you forget ?? //lol//

or go to the Sali thread and read how i am stressing out some poor gsd with all my corrections //rotflmao//
- shoulda used a prong that nite //lol//
--- that should make you feel less abusive

its no biggy Gillian

my sweet little wife used a 2x4 on her big akita years ago when it acted up in front of her house. wish i coulda been there to see that
- she said the dog never had another episode of being an asshole around the neighbours

michael from OZ has NEVER contributed anything to this forum that i can remember and never followed up with ANYTHING about the dog he searched high and low to get :-(


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian, Your opinion is respected here in spite of a few. 

I punched my JRT once.........tried anyway.

That was my hard of hearing, one eyed, gimpy, 12 yr old JRT. 

:-o You'd have thought I was trying to juggle a running chain saw. Onry little bassid! :grin: 

Practice the subline below all my posts. 

It's easy! :wink:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> If my dogs went near the sofa they would get punched, kicked, etc. ��


Mine only get sofa time after being thoroughly abused... It's my way of apologizing! (joking of course) lol

Now seriously, I establish the weekend rule... after training and eating they get to enjoy some of the commodities in the house... which includes sofa time.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

rick smith said:


> my sweet little wife used a 2x4 on her big akita years ago when it acted up in front of her house. wish i coulda been there to see that
> - she said the dog never had another episode of being an asshole around the neighbours


 Yea, we had an Akita like that. She needed a 4x4 though.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I am tired of all these discussions on here lately. I am tired of all intolerence through ignorance especially directed at my use of the sharpened pinch collar, the fact that I punched my Fila Brasileiro between the eyes.
> 
> Gillian


I wouldn't worry about it. Those that know and understand, do what the situation calls for. It's pretty simple.

Surely, many folks on this forum objected to the use of prongs or e collars until they were put into a position and taught how to use one or both of them. Now, they're likely the greatest proponents of them. BTW, a punch was probably appropriate to get your Fila's attention at the time. 

I can relate to that through this experience. If my 48 lb (at the time) snipe can drag two normal sized adults to the ground going after something she wanted and then required a third (man) to help get the situation under control, it's very likely that had you not done what you did, the dog would have gotten the upper hand. If I hadn't been holding the leash with two hands and leaning back I could have gotten the situation under control (by whatever means necessary). But I grossly under estimated the dog and by the time I realized it things were too far in her favor. She was all of about 2" off the ground digging in and pulling the entire time. Every time I tried to change position she got another foot or so ahead, which is why the second person stepped in.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thank you all


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Many ,many years ago i attended a CKC meeting in Toronto. The discussion of training equipment came up, i brought up the subject of prong collars. You could have heard a pin drop. Obviously the CKC board at the head table was uneasy, & said it was cruel & abusive to use it on a dog. I said , " you need three corrections with a "CHOKE COLLAR" emphasizing " CHOKE" , using a prong collar , i need only one, how is that cruel.
I have used this demo many times when clients want to leave their dog with me for training, see the prong collars hanging in my office on the equipment rack. I ask if i can put a choke collar on one of their thighs & a prong collar on the other. I gave correction using the choke collar , then a correction using the prong collar. After about an hour discussing the training program, i asked which leg do you still feel the correction ?, they would reply the one that had the choke collar on. 
As to sharpened prongs , used them in the early 1970s' & on , for extra long coated dogs , or particularly stubborn dogs.
punch to the forehead, i acquired a dangerous Dobe male , had just bit his owner. Took me a long time to get close to this dog , to start the training. I was up a ladder , @ 16 feet, the dog came up the ladder aggressively , i stood the ladder straight up, to get him to back down , he did , now i had to get down. He came at me , i nailed him between the eyes, stopped him cold, never had a problem with him again.
Sold him for indoor security , & he did his job.


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