# Muscle Memory - what is it, really?



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I have heard this term quite a bit. I first heard it when I was doing agility in reference to the weave poles. Keep practicing the weaves and soon the dog will have muscle memory and do them automatically.

Since then, I've heard the term used for every freaking thing possible: Heeling. Teach improper heeling and the dog will have muscle memory and do it wrong always and forever more. Blind search. Try to run the blinds the other way and it will mess up your dog because he's got muscle memory to do them the way he's always done them. Fronts. Putting up little barriers to make sure your dog comes in straight either does or doesn't teach muscle memory (I've heard it both ways).

It's one of those terms that is starting to really annoy me. I thought muscle memory was like a baby learning to walk. Soon the baby doesn't have to think "this is what I do to move my legs forward" but just does it without conscious thought. Whether he always walks perfectly is another question.

If atheletes mastered the art of muscle memory, wouldn't every golf swing be precise and land the ball exactly where intended?

Just curious as to your thoughts.

Laura


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

pro golfers, for the most par,t have "mastered" muscle memory. At least better than the rest of us that try and call what we do golf.

and weave poles would absolutely be muscle memory. any motor pattern you or your dog does is pretty much muscle memory and until the nervous system and muscles adapt, it always takes a bit more concious thought and is never as smooth or fast as one that is ingrained as a learned motor pattern.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm no expert but I am always trying to read up on these sorts of physiological topics. My understanding is that the body is made up of nerological pathways with some being more developed than others, of which can be stengthen through repetition.

One example is teaching someone how to create power when power cleaning. Of course we all know how to use our hips, but in order to use the action of opening the hips in a explosive manner while recruiting all of the neccesary muscle groups to create enough bar speed to get the weight up, takes lots of practice, but once you get the "form" down, it becomes second nature and you no longer have to think about it.

We all know how to squate and stand up, but to do it in an explosive and precise manner requires developing those nerological pathways. Teaching an animal how to build those pathways is... something else.

Its really interesting stuff.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I've always thought that there are things that are mechanical skills. For me they have been activities like typing or knitting. Maybe for others it's learning to play an instrument. It doesn't matter how smart you are, the only way to get good at it is to practice until it becomes easy and natural. Developing muscle memory is just the fancy description for that.

For dog training, think about something like training a dog to go over a hurdle. You want them to arc over it cleanly, not touch on the way over or not go straight up and land on all fours, so you teach correct form over smaller jumps and with whatever props (spreads, brushes, wings) you need to achieve that form and build from there. 

For me, the footwork I was talking about in another thread... all that practice without the dog is me trying to learn how to do it correctly and fluently without having to think about what every body part is doing (developing muscle memory) so I can concentrate on helping my dog get it right, too.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Laura if you did not have muscle memory. You would still be taking 45 minutes every morning to tie your shoes. It's real, and it's necassary for survival. The brain warehouses repeated actions in it's memory bank so it can use it's power in other tasks that may take a lot of concentration for survival. Also, you do not really do them without concious thought, you do...it just takes a fraction of the conciousness it used to put one foot in front of the other. You ever try to do math while walking and stop walking to do the math....that's because your brain needed the resources used on walking to do the math. Now, I don't think the side of a blind a dog chooses is muscle memory, even if it's repeated a billion times. That's not muscle memory...that's just plain old memory.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Now, I don't think the side of a blind a dog chooses is muscle memory, even if it's repeated a billion times. That's not muscle memory...that's just plain old memory.




That's my point, Jim. I think way too much is being attributed to muscle memory. 


Example: Last night we switched the blinds around. The live blind was on the other side of the field. Normally we start with one to the right. Last night we started with one to the left. Kinda blew a dog's mind, and it was attributed to muscle memory. I disagreed. That, to me, is just plain ole memory in the brain, not the muscle. 


Is heeling a muscle memory action, or is it just plain ole memory? Straight fronts? Quick finishes? I can see a jump technique being achieved through muscle memory. But the fact that the dog learned to run out, jump, pick up a dumbbell, turn around quickly, run back, jump and sit in a straight front...if he does that whole series of actions 10,000 times perfectly, does that create muscle memory?



When I was doing agility, I saw the dogs that did mainly AKC go to a UKC trial with differently spaced weave poles thunk around at first before they figured out it was different. They had to think about their footwork to navigate the wider gaps, whereas before, they just knew if I single-step like this, I get around them. 


Just something I was thinking about. It's not going to solve world peace or teach my dog better habits, just something to consider. If I lure the dog with a ball held over his head in my left hand and teach him perfect heel position for a million miles of heeling, will muscle memory take over and create a perfect heeling dog? If I keep two little barriers on the sides to make sure my dog has a perfect front each time for 10,000 times, will he never ever be out of position thanks to muscle memory? fronts and heeling are two things I've heard in context of muscle memory.


Laura


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It's simply doing something enough times that it becomes a conditioned response. 
It's not something actually stored in the muscle but in the brain. That's why changing a physical motion requires more thought process. It's no longer a conditioned response. 
aka: A baseball pitcher that tries to pitch underhand. 
Obviously muscle "conditioning" is also involved.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Muscle memory is the basis of all athletic endeavours. Hitting a baseball, shooting, throwing, all are honed with muscle memory. When I was shooting a lot competitively, I shot better in speed events when I did nothing but concentrate on a target and let my training take over. On days when I was 'in the zone ' I could adjust while the gun was going off.

Muscle memory gives a body a default position to fall back to. When an athlete is in the zone this is muscle memory taking control over the mind. I think this is an easy thing for a competitive athlete to grasp, it trains your body and mind a fallback position. That's why you take repetition to the extreme on both human and animal athletes. There's really no difference.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Agreed! When I did a lot of running I would fall into what some call a runner's high. There was almost no effort and I seemed to just glide along. Of course long distance was the equalizer on that one. 
My nephew (Maj in the USMC spec ops) is an ultra marathoner. His last race was 100 miles. Towards the end (not sure of mileage) they have an escort run with you because you can become disoriented. I guess your muscle memory goes down the tubes on that and it's purely conditioning. :lol: 
He still does this after being shot in the foot in Afghanistan. :-o ](*,)


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

First off golf isn't a sport;-) Now for the real gotcha: dogs don't have memory, it's called unitary perception, it's association producing images. That's the simple explanation! I refer this article all the time to clients setting the hook by saying, "dogs have no memory". http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/dogthink.html
And I would have thought you all would know this  now women have muscle memory, right Laura?  http://http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/dogthink.html


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Years before I got back into dogs I was heavy into the martial arts.
My Kung Fu patterns developed a muscle memory that's hard to ignore. I might only do my patterns very infrequently at this point, but they still come together every time.

The difference is, running weave poles, no time to think between poles, that's muscle memory.

Running SchH blinds, lots of time to think between blinds, that's OB and decision making.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Laura it's just another stupid dog term. 

Make up a new term. Sell a lot if seminars and DVDs. That's the game and it never changes.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Agreed! When I did a lot of running I would fall into what some call a runner's high. There was almost no effort and I seemed to just glide along. Of course long distance was the equalizer on that one.
> My nephew (Maj in the USMC spec ops) is an ultra marathoner. His last race was 100 miles. Towards the end (not sure of mileage) they have an escort run with you because you can become disoriented. I guess your muscle memory goes down the tubes on that and it's purely conditioning. :lol:
> He still does this after being shot in the foot in Afghanistan. :-o ](*,)


I can't remember the guys name...he holds several records for the ultra marathons..but I was reading one of his articles years ago and he said he was able to take naps WHILE he was running. Short naps of course, and he wasn't able to keep running in a real straight line when it happened. I would call that muscle memory.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Now, I went to a shade seminar. I was very impressed by how "micro" Shades criteria for what responses got rewarded. Her sit in motion was not just the dog sitting, putting it's but down. IT had to stop with both front feet together, then the back end of the dog had to suck up right underneath the dog. Now, This is where muscle memory is important. If the dog sat any other way....no reward. So, I think it has it's value. To be aware that in some parts of the training you want the dog go from working from concious thought to muscle memory. It also ties into to how stress effects the dog. They are going to default on thier most conditioned muscle memory.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James, Not sure if I misunderstood you. Wouldn't you thing that you would default *TO *conditioned muscle memory under stress? This is the whole point of military training.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So you want the position they default to under stress to be as correct as possible. 

I think this ties into the it's not 'practice makes perfect', but perfect practice makes perfect.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Derek Milliken said:


> Years before I got back into dogs I was heavy into the martial arts.
> My Kung Fu patterns developed a muscle memory that's hard to ignore. I might only do my patterns very infrequently at this point, but they still come together every time.
> 
> The difference is, running weave poles, no time to think between poles, that's muscle memory.


As well as many of the other non biting things we do in protections sports too. A-Frame, Palisade, Hurdle any of the jumps I think have a lot to do with muscle memory with the dog's placement and set up positioning especially for the send and return. That's if you practice the exercises with that type of mentality. Having Martial arts in my background I 'get' that pattern training big time. Though sometimes you have to think outside the box to apply it in the 'world' according to the dog. 



Derek Milliken said:


> Running SchH blinds, lots of time to think between blinds, that's OB and decision making


Exactly! Watching the dogs in our training group that train IPO. It's more of a muscle memory thing for the handler sending the dog to blind#1 then for the heir and be at the proper spot to send the dog to #2 and so on and so on up the field. It's the timing and being in position that makes or breaks this exercise from the handler's skill that kills it for the dog, from what I've seen in my experience.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

is this muscle memory;


way haredr than it looks;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bFLSaeoQs4&feature=related


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hand eye coordination! I suppose that could be classified as muscle memory. It's a learned, physical response.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

"learned physical response" - and muscle memory is...?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> "learned physical response" - and muscle memory is...?



Your brain telling your body what to do and doing it enough times that it becomes an easy behavior. 

As you say, this isn't easy (guy flying the remoter chopper) but his practicing pays off when he starts doing it with out having to think about which way to push the remote. !! Muscle memory!!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> *Your brain telling your body what to do and doing it enough times that it becomes an easy behavior.*
> 
> so easy he doesn't have to think...then
> 
> ...


 
splitting hairs or myth busted??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Your choice! I'm happy with it! :grin: :wink:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Me happy to.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I played a lot of baseball, always an infielder. I had a little bit of a reputation of being very quick to the ball, it was all muscle memory. When I quit playing and started umpiring some games, it took me several years to get over flinching when the ball came off the bat. If I was umpiring at second, I would see the ball come off the bat, and make an unconscious flinch/step towards where it was going to end up, without intending to. That is muscle memory at work. I could literally go to the place at the crack of the bat without realizing how I figured out where it was going, literally unconsciously. As a matter of fact, I had a hell of a time trying to quit doing it! I think the ones that have been athletes can relate to this, as that is what it is all about, practicing something so much you can do it without thought, just reacting, and doing it properly. 

It is the basis for training animals as well, for we are just somewhat advanced animals. At least in some situations we give the impression that we are advanced more than the average 'possum.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

So from reading this thread I gather it's just a new term for what we used to call building a solid foundation. 

What's that old song? The more things change the more things stay the same?


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Don't know that much about training dogs for sports, but in athletics it's always been called muscle memory. Most can have different names for the same things, in other words a solid foundation will produce muscle memory.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> .... in other words a solid foundation will produce muscle memory.


Thanks for the clarification. I think this is a really good thread by the way, I have learned from it, so thanks for starting it Laura!
:grin:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Probably something to be said for muscle memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh yeah? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2oZ6Kv_qo


:lol:


(You can stop watching at about 9 seconds.)



PS
Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyR-oPPnPsk


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh yeah?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2oZ6Kv_qo
> 
> ...


That aint mm, cant be trained its just super cool awesomeness sca, he was that good from the very first time he picked up a rifle — prodigy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> That aint mm, cant be trained its just super cool awesomeness sca, he was that good from the very first time he picked up a rifle — prodigy.


You think?

I agree that it's super cool awesomeness, though. 

Not just in that opening sequence. There are many scenes where the camera does not cut away and there is no editing where he is equally super-cool awesome.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i was so serious watching that show as a kid.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

And here I thought Muscle memory was remembering 30+ years ago. When I had muscles ;-)


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i was so serious watching that show as a kid.



It's on re-runs here every saturday...I usually watch one or two.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Skip Morgart said:


> It's on re-runs here every saturday...I usually watch one or two.


Can you watch that an F—troop for me an some banana splits.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I loved the rifleman.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I loved the rifleman.


The Rifleman was OK
Wanted Dead or Alive, now that was a Western ;-)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Do you guys remember this Chuck Conners series?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV-7D4io1Rs

All but one man died....there at bitter creek....and they say he ran away....BRANDED!!!

The series was short lived, many might not remember it but, I bet lots of folks remember the more catchier verse of the theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B32A5jieFZI

STRANDED!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_Do you guys remember this Chuck Conners series?:_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV-7D4io1Rs

_All but one man died....there at bitter creek....and they say he ran away....BRANDED!!!_



Yup. Jason MacCord!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The Rifleman was OK
> Wanted Dead or Alive, now that was a Western ;-)


Oh, yeah! Steve McQueen, right? And another rifle?




ETA:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051327/


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Back in the day, Chuck Connors lived in the same neighborhood I grew up in. When I was a kid I bumped into him in the supermarket once - literally! Neat guy.
:smile:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, yeah! Steve McQueen, right? And another rifle?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, a cut down version of a Winchester Model 92 called a Mare's Leg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOzdhnqhxSw
Notice Michael Landon who went on to do Bonanza and then Little House on the Prarie. The other guy is Nick Adams who played Johnny Yuma in the TV western The Rebel.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Those were the days when westerns dominated TV and Warner Bros dominated TV westerns.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Yeah, a cut down version of a Winchester Model 92 called a Mare's Leg.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOzdhnqhxSw
> Notice Michael Landon who went on to do Bonanza and then Little House on the Prarie. The other guy is Nick Adams who played Johnny Yuma in the TV western The Rebel.



Wow! Michael Landon as a bad guy! :!:


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Do you guys remember this Chuck Conners series?:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV-7D4io1Rs
> 
> ...



remember it well. Good show. He had the broken sword.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wow! Michael Landon as a bad guy! :!:


Michael Landon's very first movie was "I Was a Teenage Werewolf". A classic B grade horror movie. Even then I guess in the final scene you couldn't call him a bad guy.
As he fell off a cliff his last words were "MOOOOMMMMYYYY"! 
The scariest thing about the whole movie was walking home in the dark through Fairgrounds Park. We just knew that every wino on every park bench was going to turn into a werewolf and come running after us. 8-[ 8-[


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