# Aggression In the Work



## AJ Johnson

Just want some feedback from you guys on how you or the decoys that are working your dogs are developing your dogs true aggression. I personally believe in using a fence but I also know their are several other methods and figured here would be as good a place as any to discuss them. FYI I know Prey is great but Aggression when developed is strength


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## David Frost

I guess it would depend on your objective. My objective is to pursue, engage and remain engaged until I call the dog off. I develop the dog to whatever level that satisfies that objective. 

DFrost


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## Ben Colbert

Could someone explain why a fence brings out aggression?

I understand using a fence in order to frustrate a dog and how a frustrated dog tends to be more intense but I'm not sure how a simple fence would bring out a totally different drive. Could someone break it down for me?


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## Faisal Khan

AJ Johnson said:


> Just want some feedback from you guys on how you or the decoys that are working your dogs are developing your dogs true aggression. I personally believe in using a fence but I also know their are several other methods and figured here would be as good a place as any to discuss them. FYI I know Prey is great but Aggression when developed is strength


Would depend on the individual dog and it's prey/defense balance and thresholds. Some just require the helper to stop motion some require the table...


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## Joby Becker

Ben Colbert said:


> Could someone explain why a fence brings out aggression?
> 
> I understand using a fence in order to frustrate a dog and how a frustrated dog tends to be more intense but I'm not sure how a simple fence would bring out a totally different drive. Could someone break it down for me?


Depends on the dog. 

Aggression is not a totally different drive, aggression can be expressed in several drives.

Fence adds confidence in most dogs, dog knows there is not a direct threat to its safety. It also can add a sense of frustration to a strong prey, strong nerve dog, and get certain things out of that dog. Fence is used sometimes to increase aggression, but that aggression can stem from a bunch of sources...prey, frustration, defense/fear, fight, territoriality..etc.etc.etc..some people use it to get a little more intensity in the work...

I have found that a backtie at night really adds intensity, dog is pressured from the tie, and the darkness. adds a good deal for the dog to deal with, without the man having to do a whole lot, can get a younger dog over the hump...


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## Jerry Lyda

Al, you don't think there is strength in prey? Dogs do not have to be mean to work. Confidence is what the dog needs to work.


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## David Frost

Jerry Lyda said:


> Al, you don't think there is strength in prey? Dogs do not have to be mean to work. Confidence is what the dog needs to work.


amen, amen and amen. There is a lot of difference in a "mean" dog and one that is trained to bite and hold.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I know Prey is great but Aggression when developed is strength.

Is it ?? Please explain this to me. I think this statement is crap, AND heres why.

You go out and scare the dog, to bring out "aggression", right ?? I mean you give it a word so it is pretty, like defense, or active aggression, but bottom line you go scare the dog.

So you scare the dog at that level for a while, and the dog figures out that you are full of shit, and a big fat pussy, because you won't cross the line. So you get a dog that shows his war face and you feel good about yourself, but the deal is, the dog figured out you are a big fat pussy, and is back in prey, but shows his war face, and has gained a little confidence.

Repeat the above step to add "more pressure" and the dog still sees that you are a big fat pussy, and won't cross the line.

At what point do you figure out that the dog has figured you out ?? All you end up adding is a war face to the dog, as with regular work, the dog is going to gain that confidence anyway.

So to make it perfectly clear, the dog now shows the "look" that you want, and you feel better, but the dog would have gained this confidence through the work anyway.

Now some dogs need this sort of work to bang through their stupid thresholds, and some don't. I look at this sort of thing as the way people were taught to do the work, and they are not really reading the dog at all. The one thing that this type of work can do for you is toss out the shitters, as they will not respond to this sort of work, and when they are hiding behind their owner, it will make it sort of embarrassing for them, and they will be less likely to keep the dog. I know people that will do this to dogs, and then sell one of theirs.

This is a cute trick. How may of you have had someone do this to your dog, and then they try and sell you a dog ?? Kinda curious.


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## David Frost

Jeff, you're crude and rude, but I do agree with you. ha ha.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think I overcompensate a bit thanks to all the useless PC shitters I have to deal with. Belly crawlers. You know the type.


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## Joby Becker

Working dogs at night CAN improve the intensity of the fight. So can prey guarding. So can fencework. 

Dogs tend to be a little more serious when out in the dark. The stress comes from sources other than the decoy, so the man does not have to do the pushing (stressing) in the work...and not become a big scary pussy. And also not overstress the dog with direct defensive techniques.

Not sure why some people feel aggression is so different from prey. 

A high prey/high fight dog can have a lot of real aggression in the work...if he has some defense as well.

Also not sure why defense work is viewed as such a taboo by some...If done correctly it puts A LOT more on your dog than just a scary face...

More quotes that I agree with, to put it into writing...I highlighted some..

Armin W.

*Defense* drive counts as one of the dog’s aggression behaviours, and it can appear in conjunction with other behaviours. Threatening, staring, and biting are typical defensive reactions. Defense behaviour is generally triggered by threats, real or perceived, or open aggression. The goal of defense behaviour is always to create avoidance behaviour in the threatener. Defense drive may appear as defense of prey, defense of puppies, defense of territory, defense against the unfamiliar, or self-defense. The drive is satisfied in each case when the aggressor shows avoidance behaviour. *Defense drive is not subject to exhaustion, so it can be activated at will. It should, therefore, be part of the combative behaviour of any protection dog. Furthermore, it is responsible for behaviours like countering when under stress or when threatened. The great danger when working a dog in defense drive is that the same stimuli which cause defense behaviour also cause avoidance behaviour. Which of the two possible behaviours is displayed by a dog when a trigger stimulus is presented is dependant on a variety of factors, among them confidence and temperament of the dog as well as the threatener, life experiences of the dog, age and maturity of the dog, location (unfamiliar or home turf), distance between adversaries, and the presence of other external influences (prey, mate, puppies). Author’s note: Hopefully this allows people to see defense for the double-edged sword it is. Defense is one part of protection training. The idea that good dogs should only be worked in defense is a dangerous one which has wrecked many great dogs.*

...*Aggression increases through maturation and practice. It can also be increased or decreased through training and through external influences, for example pain can be aggression stimulating*. Other factors which affect aggressive behavior are location and hormone levels. *Two factors which affect aggression that a protection helper needs to be aware of are: personal acquaintance blocks aggression; and passive acceptance of a dog’s aggression impresses a dog deeply and causes unsureness.*
*A negative side effect of aggression in dog training is that it greatly reduces the dog’s learning ability.
Author’s note: We all want to see our dogs work aggressively against the “bad guy,” but we need to keep in mind that that is the final picture we want to see. Too often high quality dogs don’t reach their potential because their owners want to see them aggressive right from the start, forgetting about the fact that the dog has to learn many intricate exercises before he can walk onto the competition field. So if possible teach the dog an exercise first, then make him perform it aggressively.
*
*Fighting Drive
*Again the question of whether or not an independent fighting drive exists has not yet been answered. Some dog-experts feel that a fighting drive must exist and that it is related to the play drive. The term fighting drive is an oxymoron. It combines the word drive refers to an inherited trait which serves to preserve life and species, with the word fight which refers to physical combat. *A drive to fight would then be an internal motivation which leads the animal into a potentially harmful situation. But even in social aggression the non-physical ritualistic showdowns are much more common than the injurious physical fights. However, that argument aside, the term fighting drive is a useful description of a desirable behavior in the dog. We want to see a dog who has fun fighting with the helper. But only a dog who doesn’t feel like he is fighting for his life can be unstressed and have fun. Therefore I (Raiser) feel that fighting drive is an extension of prey drive.*
*What qualities make up good fighting drive – meaning the spontaneity? Practical experience has shown that dogs who work primarily in as a result of their defensive drive may still lack fighting drive. Dogs like that then often fail to engage the helper if he does not present any defensive stimuli, but work confidently while under threat. The desire to “seek the fight” is an essential ingredient of fighting drive. In all dogs with pronounced fighting drive, I also found pronounced prey drive.* Making prey is a passionate activity which does not stress the dog. *However, prey drive alone is not equal to fighting drive, the dog also has to use defense behaviour. The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression. Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival. The object of competition could vary: it could be the prey (hence the relation to prey drive); or it could be social rank, which works well with dominant dogs. So in order to increase fighting drive, we have to promote prey drive, build up defense drive, and strengthen aggression by teaching the dog that he can defeat and dominate the helper.* *This should make it very clear that as much as fighting drive is a very desirable quality, one cannot expect to see it fully developed in a one year old dog.
Author’s note: Do your dogs a favor and help them develop all the components that make up good fighting drive, rather than waiting until it magically appears out of thin air because the dog should have “it” naturally.*


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Not sure why some people feel aggression is so different from prey.

I guess you didn't read what I wrote. Maybe get a home course on improving reading comprehension.


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## AJ Johnson

AJ Johnson said:


> Just want some feedback from you guys on how you or the decoys that are working your dogs are developing your dogs true aggression. I personally believe in using a fence but I also know their are several other methods and figured here would be as good a place as any to discuss them. FYI I know Prey is great but Aggression when developed is strength


*Where did I say in the above tell me what you think about aggression in terms of the drive. I asked how people feel best to develop it only one person answered that the rest was BS*




Ben Colbert said:


> Could someone explain why a fence brings out aggression?
> *The fence adds numerous things to the dogs aggression development. this includes but is not limited to focus,safety,territory and a sense of calm. This allows the dog to bring and change the reaction of the decoy in a sense the dog behind a fence determines the act of what the decoy does. In a more direct manner then running back and forth in prey making the dog react. By having the dog cause the reaction no different then having a dog bark for a reward it causes the dog to develop further. It turns aggression when a threat and presence are brought to the safe zone. (the fence) I have explained in further detail in another post on this forum just search for it*
> 
> I understand using a fence in order to frustrate a dog and how a frustrated dog tends to be more intense but I'm not sure how a simple fence would bring out a totally different drive. Could someone break it down for me?


*Fences are not used for frustration. Whip cracking is frustration fences when used properly by a decoy that has the experience develops a dogs aggression nicely. I dont see aggression and defense as the same drive.*



Jerry Lyda said:


> Al, you don't think there is strength in prey? Dogs do not have to be mean to work. Confidence is what the dog needs to work.


*I never said their was no strength in prey so read it again. Secondly most of these sports have the dog play not work. My background if for working dogs that take the work seriously and not in a prey game mode. Aggression btw is not defined as mean btw. If I was talking basketball and said he drove the lane aggressively that does not mean he had an attitude. Aggression is proactive and not solely reactive. Mals are more proactive then say Rotts who tend to be reactive.*



David Frost said:


> amen, amen and amen. There is a lot of difference in a "mean" dog and one that is trained to bite and hold.
> 
> DFrost


*All mean dogs that are truly mean do bite and hold. Scared dogs bite and let go I dont train scared dogs. As I stated above mean and aggressive are two different things.*



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I know Prey is great but Aggression when developed is strength.
> 
> Is it ?? Please explain this to me. I think this statement is crap, AND heres why.
> 
> You go out and scare the dog, to bring out "aggression", right ?? I mean you give it a word so it is pretty, like defense, or active aggression, but bottom line you go scare the dog.
> 
> So you scare the dog at that level for a while, and the dog figures out that you are full of shit, and a big fat pussy, because you won't cross the line. So you get a dog that shows his war face and you feel good about yourself, but the deal is, the dog figured out you are a big fat pussy, and is back in prey, but shows his war face, and has gained a little confidence.
> 
> Repeat the above step to add "more pressure" and the dog still sees that you are a big fat pussy, and won't cross the line.
> 
> At what point do you figure out that the dog has figured you out ?? All you end up adding is a war face to the dog, as with regular work, the dog is going to gain that confidence anyway.
> 
> So to make it perfectly clear, the dog now shows the "look" that you want, and you feel better, but the dog would have gained this confidence through the work anyway.
> 
> Now some dogs need this sort of work to bang through their stupid thresholds, and some don't. I look at this sort of thing as the way people were taught to do the work, and they are not really reading the dog at all. The one thing that this type of work can do for you is toss out the shitters, as they will not respond to this sort of work, and when they are hiding behind their owner, it will make it sort of embarrassing for them, and they will be less likely to keep the dog. I know people that will do this to dogs, and then sell one of theirs.
> 
> This is a cute trick. How may of you have had someone do this to your dog, and then they try and sell you a dog ?? Kinda curious.


*The above was retarded. If your decoy is trying to scare your dog two problems you need to find a real decoy that knows how to train dogs. Secondly you need a dog that will work without fear. All the above in your response is crap and stupid. Dogs that excel in bitework shouldnot be biting in fear. Aggression and fear shouldnt even be discussed in the same thread.*


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## Jim Nash

AJ stated;
*All mean dogs that are truly mean do bite and hold. Scared dogs bite and let go I dont train scared dogs. As I stated above mean and aggressive are two different things.*

AJ , I'm guessing your definition of a "mean" dog is a confident dog . Forgive me if I'm wrong . Problem is many people think a dog that is highly defensive (putting on a good show of aggression but only in hopes of making the badguys run away) is a "mean" or confident dog when in fact it isn't too far from getting run off . As envidenced by some in a recent discussion .

Hard to tell over the internet where you're at but when I hear all this defensive and aggression talk along with criticism of prey training to develope a dog it raises red flags and smells of the old push a bunch of civil aggitation on a dog too soon or too much . Then when they get a really scarey looking dog they think they have the total package .

We've had this type of discussion many times before and Emilio and that Lee guy come to mind . I have nothing against defensive training or prey training . I used both those aspects on the dogs I've trained . But it depends on the individual dog , how much of either I use and when I might use them . 

As for fence training , we used it alot years ago when training PSD's here but don't use it near as much as we use to and haven't noticed any change for the worse in the quality of the dogs we put out . 

It's just another form of civil work . Nothing magical about it . When we do use it now it's just a different look for the dog if we want to say put some more presure on them . We can even do prey work too , just a different look for the dog which can be beneficial . Too much of one thing in developing a dog in many cases can just leads to it being a waste of time . Dogs been there done that . I've found changing it up , giving the dogs new scenerios , locations , different behaviors in helpers , etc. to be much more beneficial in developing a confident dog .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Fences are not used for frustration.

So the dog cannot get to the helper, but that is not frustration ?

Quote: The above was retarded. If your decoy is trying to scare your dog two problems you need to find a real decoy that knows how to train dogs. Secondly you need a dog that will work without fear. All the above in your response is crap and stupid. Dogs that excel in bitework shouldnot be biting in fear. Aggression and fear shouldnt even be discussed in the same thread.

So, defense is not a fear based drive ?? So the term fear forward is just made up ??

Quote: All the above in your response is crap and stupid.

Ok, show me how it is wrong. I do not train that way, but many do. I also can read a dog, but many cannot. Show me this aggression you are talking about. Show me how a dog that cannot reach the helper is not frustrated.

Show me your work.


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## Jerry Lyda

Jim , I too see Emilio and Lee.


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## David Frost

AJ stated;
All mean dogs that are truly mean do bite and hold. Scared dogs bite and let go I dont train scared dogs. As I stated above mean and aggressive are two different things.


Perhaps as Jim pointed out, it's just a terminology issue. When I think of "mean" dogs, I'm thinking of two specific types: 

1. the dog that is basically working from fear behavior, which in my line of work is less than worthless. 

2. Like the old military sentry dogs. Fearless, would attack a tank but virtually no control. Releasing a sentry dog was like firing a gun. Once it's released there is no calling it back. Also not desireable as PSD.

DFrost


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## Christopher Jones

These Mike Ellis clips are well worth the watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9siVtZyeE7k part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrhqAPFMJLs Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hanG2YGYzZg Part 3

I cant believe there are still people who think dogs need to be worked in defence to actually destroy people.


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Jones said:


> These Mike Ellis clips are well worth the watch.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9siVtZyeE7k part 1
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrhqAPFMJLs Part 2
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hanG2YGYzZg Part 3
> 
> I cant believe there are still people who think dogs need to be worked in defence to actually destroy people.


Great vids..

I personally don't think a dog needs to be WORKED in defense to be able to destroy a person..

I do think that some of it here and there can help many dogs bring out intensity you may not see without it...They put the dog in a slightly uncomfortable spot, or elicit a defensive response, and he gets to work through it, coming out stronger..

An example:

Get a dog in to start working...

He is 18 months old, has done some bitework and has good prey and good nerves. He is happy biting but does not have any intensity. no barks, is happy holding on to the suit, but the bite is not all that powerful.

After getting to know the dog, and feeling him out..

I might try some prey guarding of equipment (dropped sleeve, leg sleeve) to see if that works...threatening possession of the equipment.

I might also try some tie out work, for frustration purposes, if necessary adding a slight threat... that might work....

I might try an assault on the handler to see if that elicits a stronger response.

I might give him a pop or two with the whip.

I might strike him while on the bite...(not super hard) and posture some..

I might use a fence...

I might also work the dog at night on a tie out. the stress of the situation 
may add that intensity. But the decoy is not the direct cause of the stress. Doing the same things that are done in the daytime. 

Whatever works to teach the dog to do his thing in a more serious manner..Dogs are all different, if they need it, one of the above usually works.

Not everyone has super great dogs, this stuff CAN help a dog come out...

I wouldn't do it with every dog, and would not do it often. 

I have seen good dogs that just need a little help, improve significantly, literally overnight.

I'm not talking about flanking, beating the crap out of the dog, or making to dog think you want to kill him...not working the dog in straight defense, repeatedly, with no reward for his actions...

I'm talking about little things here and there to add intensity and elicit some sort of defensive response with good prey reward, and a speedy withdrawal to boost him up.

To the OP. 
the fence can be used also in strong prey/strong nerve dogs that may have problems barking. They don't bark when onleash with decoy in front of them. They just wait for the bite. Put them behind a fence they may start to bark out of frustration, and the barking can be rewarded. This can also add aggression from the frustration of not being able to get the bite.


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I know Prey is great but Aggression when developed is strength.
> 
> Is it ?? Please explain this to me. I think this statement is crap, AND heres why.
> 
> You go out and scare the dog, to bring out "aggression", right ?? I mean you give it a word so it is pretty, like defense, or active aggression, but bottom line you go scare the dog.
> 
> So you scare the dog at that level for a while, and the dog figures out that you are full of shit, and a big fat pussy, because you won't cross the line. So you get a dog that shows his war face and you feel good about yourself, but the deal is, the dog figured out you are a big fat pussy, and is back in prey, but shows his war face, and has gained a little confidence.
> 
> Repeat the above step to add "more pressure" and the dog still sees that you are a big fat pussy, and won't cross the line.
> 
> At what point do you figure out that the dog has figured you out ?? All you end up adding is a war face to the dog, as with regular work, the dog is going to gain that confidence anyway.
> 
> So to make it perfectly clear, the dog now shows the "look" that you want, and you feel better, but the dog would have gained this confidence through the work anyway.
> 
> Now some dogs need this sort of work to bang through their stupid thresholds, and some don't. I look at this sort of thing as the way people were taught to do the work, and they are not really reading the dog at all. The one thing that this type of work can do for you is toss out the shitters, as they will not respond to this sort of work, and when they are hiding behind their owner, it will make it sort of embarrassing for them, and they will be less likely to keep the dog. I know people that will do this to dogs, and then sell one of theirs.
> 
> This is a cute trick. How may of you have had someone do this to your dog, and then they try and sell you a dog ?? Kinda curious.



The simple basics that every dog on the planet has figured out in order to chase of that damn mail carrier that messes with their house every day. 
Even the shitter dogs come to view themselves as BA in this scenario. That door/fence is wonderful for their ego. :grin: :wink:


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## AJ Johnson

As I stated Mean is not the same as scared. I have a k9 background and PP background. A scared dog is of no use for me or anyone for that matter. Confident interchanged with the word aggression more closely defines my desire in a dog. As for Prey work I am not against it at all and am all for balanced dogs. I do however see more often then not in this sport world dogs that are all prey and no bite. You can call it equipment oriented if you like but even still I have seen dogs that are too prey oriented not take a bite when offered. The most important thing IMO is a balanced dog no matter what. I simply asked what some methods that people here in the sport world were using to build a dogs confidence in the work in a more real life orientation and outside of simple prey. I dont believe in a dog in defense and rather not have a dog in mostly defense as even then the dog needs to be loaded to perform well and that is also less then desirable. I like assassins for dogs. Highly confident in any situation calm clear headed and ready to strike without even the slightest raise in BP when asked to do so not when reacting to a situation. Hope that makes sense.


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## Mike Scheiber

AJ Johnson said:


> As I stated Mean is not the same as scared. I have a k9 background and PP background. A scared dog is of no use for me or anyone for that matter. Confident interchanged with the word aggression more closely defines my desire in a dog. As for Prey work I am not against it at all and am all for balanced dogs. I do however see more often then not in this sport world dogs that are all prey and no bite. You can call it equipment oriented if you like but even still I have seen dogs that are too prey oriented not take a bite when offered. The most important thing IMO is a balanced dog no matter what. I simply asked what some methods that people here in the sport world were using to build a dogs confidence in the work in a more real life orientation and outside of simple prey. I dont believe in a dog in defense and rather not have a dog in mostly defense as even then the dog needs to be loaded to perform well and that is also less then desirable. I like assassins for dogs. Highly confident in any situation calm clear headed and ready to strike without even the slightest raise in BP when asked to do so not when reacting to a situation. Hope that makes sense.


A good and well trained sport dog should take a bare hand or arm with out thought if offered, a good but badly trained sport dog will bite someone in the face. It shouldnt matter what drive the dog works in all I want rage.


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## AJ Johnson

Mike Scheiber said:


> A good and well trained sport dog should take a bare hand or arm with out thought if offered, a good but badly trained sport dog will bite someone in the face. It shouldnt matter what drive the dog works in all I want rage.



As do I. That was well said. Too often I see the latter the good but badly trained sport dog mostly because decoy's are out their apparently scaring dogs that shouldnt be doing the work in the first place. Or at least thats what I gather by some of the responses in this thread. In one regard training a dog that has the correct drives is not rocket science however too many I feel are training a bunch of shitters. I like rage, I love aggression, Well balanced in all aspects Priceless.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I think of rage as uncontrolled and extreme anger. Would that preclude a dog from being clear headed? Just curious, but Is that really desirable in a sport dog?


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## David Frost

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think of rage as uncontrolled and extreme anger. ?



As to do I. I just chalked it up to terminology differences. If in fact it's rage as I understand it, it would not be ideal in a PSD. Sitting in and maintaining a heel position while a moron is standing in front of you, flailing his arms about, raising his voice etc, is difficult enough. An example of why I don't want the dog "interpreting" whether or something is a threat. 

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda

Prey , defense combination of both. The Gathering showed the true test. Dogs should have never passed what we threw at them. The dogs that have been on a bite suit did well. They were trained in different ways as stated above. Should have been there.

We're thinking of doing another this fall. When it's cooler.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Other than the terminology he uses is different, he just sound like one of those PPD guys that when you see their dog in person, it is embarrassingly different than what they are describing. 

Anyone who is looking for "rage" in a dog is a ****ing tool. I think we have a couple pretty good candidates here. *mod edit*


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## James Degale

There are many great trainers in Europe who are generations old in terms of dog culture, who will read this thread in bewilderment. To them a dog either bites or doesn't bite. Secondly, it is the type that either gets angry or does not get angry. The first consideration is the most important. For the second, it would be nice to have a dog that can get angry but not big deal if it doesn't, as long as it bites.

Sometimes it is good to keep it simple.


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## Diana Abel

Jerry Lyda said:


> Prey , defense combination of both. The Gathering showed the true test. Dogs should have never passed what we threw at them. The dogs that have been on a bite suit did well. They were trained in different ways as stated above. Should have been there.
> 
> We're thinking of doing another this fall. When it's cooler.


Ooo, cooler weather! Now I may have to cruise down to GA for that. Thank God we train late evenings/nights or I would be taking the Summers off.


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## Mike Scheiber

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think of rage as uncontrolled and extreme anger. Would that preclude a dog from being clear headed? Just curious, but Is that really desirable in a sport dog?


Extream anger yes!!!! uncontroalad cant have that. My dogs anger and rage stem from prey that is what he is. His hold and bark is shit JMO and most Schutzhund judges will agree, helpers will tell you different :grin: I cant wait for him to nail me in front of a judge when I call him out of his H&B.
Hes angry and frustrated this is what I call rage.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Other than the terminology he uses is different, he just sound like one of those PPD guys that when you see their dog in person, it is embarrassingly different than what they are describing.
> 
> Anyone who is looking for "rage" in a dog is a ****ing tool.
> ?



*mod edit*


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## Jeff Oehlsen

*mod edit*
I am sure that your dog probably needs the helper to prop him up, but if you could read a dog, which you obviously cannot, you would see that the dog is in quite enough drive.

*mod edit*, you just keep watching how it is done, ad what kind of dog you need to do it with. LOL So, yeah, what a tool.


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## Bob Scott

Lets get off all the childish bullshit!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have no idea what you are talking about Bob. LOL Please be more specific. Was it where people want rage out of a dog ?? Was it this precious quote? 

I like rage, I love aggression, Well balanced in all aspects Priceless.

So rage. Hmmmm. What would balance out rage ? Sleep ??


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## Al Curbow

Uncontrollable Rage?? LOL, that was the best one yet.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Hey Al, what are the odds *mod edit* has the stones to put up a video of his dog, the rage machine ???? HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


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## Martine Loots

James Degale said:


> There are many people in Europe who are generations old in terms of dog culture, who will read this thread in bewilderment. *To them a dog either bites or doesn't bite. Secondly, it is the type that either gets angry or does not get angry*. The first consideration is the most important. For the second, it would be nice to have a dog that can get angry but not big deal if it doesn't, as long as it bites.
> 
> Sometimes it is good to keep it simple.


I second that.
The first consideration is important for people who want to practice sport with their dog.
The second consideration is important if you need the dog also for other purposes on if it's important for you to have a serious type of dog.

Everything depends on your targets. High sports results can be achieved (and often more easily) with a sporty type of dog but if you want to be sure you can always depend on him in real life situations, you need more then that.

I always wonder who created all those definitions about "drive" and why they only seem to exist in countries where it's common to give seminars and theory classes? Please note that this statement is not meant to be offensive.


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Mike Scheiber said:


> Extream anger yes!!!! uncontroalad cant have that. My dogs anger and rage stem from prey that is what he is. His hold and bark is shit JMO and most Schutzhund judges will agree, helpers will tell you different :grin: I cant wait for him to nail me in front of a judge when I call him out of his H&B.
> Hes angry and frustrated this is what I call rage.


 
I just call that, not clear in the head. Tranfered aggression. Not sure how many LEO's or anyone in their right mind "wants" a dog leaving the threat and nailing them? You just described, uncontroled.


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## Gillian Schuler

I'd call it a frustration bite


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## Chris Daleo

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I just call that, not clear in the head. Tranfered aggression. Not sure how many LEO's or anyone in their right mind "wants" a dog leaving the threat and nailing them? You just described, uncontroled.


 I agree. Jeff...LOL! Don't know you from Adam, but you sound like my kind of guy. I have read & re-read these posts trying to keep an open mind and understand the semantics. Email & webposts suck for that. I was a salesman for a long time and learned enough about body language and eye contact, that I can't stand email communication without a follow up phone call to ensure someone gets my meaning or clarify, so that being said... I can only say what someone told me years ago when getting involved in dogsports..."Everyone has an opinion on dog training and as you know opinions are like @$$holes...everyone has one and they all stink." Well they don't ALL stink but most do. Stick to the three tents- insisTENT, persisTENT & consisTENT.
First what do you want the dog to do...?
What do you want to do...?
I purchased my Malinois with the idea that I would like to join a Ringsport club and enjoy the camraderie and the hobby of training the dog. I' have found it difficult even locating one, I know I am imperfect, I know I will make mistakes, I know I will never be a "competition level" handler. I may desire that, strive for that, but I am realistic. I am also realistic about what my dog can or can not do (or will be - he's 14wks).
Without seeing the dog in "drive" vs. in "defense, I can't comment to AJ or Mike specifically that it is a terminology difference. But my initial question is Why do you want that, whats the motivation for you to have this "berserker" of a dog? Do you think uncontrolled rage/anger/aggression will make the dog harder...ergo...bite harder...ergo... score higher...ergo...impress people...ergo...get more breedings or higher stud fee? Perhaps it will, but what are you sacrificing in the bonding with your dog to put him in defense and frustrate him to the point that the pressure he feels causes handler aggression?
I am impressed by the dog that can go out on the field turn it on, perform a tight SchH III obedience routine, knock down a helper and then turn it off and go be a therapy dog with senior citizens or disabled kids. Then relax on the living room floor at my feet while I watch tv. That to me is impressive. That is what I strive for.Yes there is a dog like this, a Malinois in Rockland County NY.
I'm also trying to reconcile the fact that there is little to no care for the conformation of Malinois in the working sports. I came from USRC/ADRK where they strive for the yinyang of working ability and conformation. It was a noble cause and they didn't want the Rottweiler to go the way of the GSD in terms of show vs working lines. Not there is anything wrong with wanting something pretty to look at...if that's your gig, kudos. I a more of a total package guy.
I think balance is the key here. Isn't that what breeding is all about, trying to find the best of both working ability(what the dog was meant to do) and conformation (to the breed standard set by whatever "governing authority" you ascribe to) Might you have to push the dog a little to get him to engage a more dominant/imposing decoy? Maybe. but you build on the drive from the foundation...toy to rag, rag to jute, jute to tug, tug to sleeve, etc. all positive, all prey driven. Naturally, a little frustration has to be there to continue to engage in the prey drive. For me and I know for some they are, but a dog is not a commodity nor a measure of my masculinity or prowess. He's a friend, a companion and protector, but above all he is just a dog. Just my 2 cents.


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## Mike Scheiber

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'd call it a frustration bite


yes simply put as I said earlier *mod edit*


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## Candy Eggert

Damnit David....slow down on the Mod Edits ;-) I'm missing all the good stuff  I think?! LOL


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## David Frost

You are only missing the childish bull sh**. I'm on a mission from God. ha ha.

DFrost


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## Mike Lauer

imho the best dog would work in prey all the time, because he is so ****ing confident he sees you as a little tiny rabbit that he is going to crush and eat. 
a confident dog isn't scared of you so why be defensive. you ever see a dog bark or pull away from a rabbit? no its all attack and forward
do trained mma fighters fight with rage?


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## maggie fraser

Mike Lauer said:


> imho the best dog would work in prey all the time, because he is so ****ing confident he sees you as a little tiny rabbit that he is going to crush and eat.
> a confident dog isn't scared of you so why be defensive. you ever see a dog bark or pull away from a rabbit? no its all attack and forward
> do trained mma fighters fight with rage?


Anthing that is all prey....has a screw loose! Just doesn't make any sense, unless you're having a crack at humour ? Ever seen a full grown lion pull back off a tiny wee peed off wart hog ? That analogy was fresh on my mind from another thread, sorry to be repeating myself.


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## Al Curbow

Maggie,
My dog is all prey, lol


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## maggie fraser

Al Curbow said:


> Maggie,
> My dog is all prey, lol


 
Hey Al, get yourself sorted out with a session with Joby.... the king of defense lol :grin:


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## Candy Eggert

David Frost said:


> You are only missing the childish bull sh**. I'm on a mission from God. ha ha.
> 
> DFrost


Does that mean a slow day at work?!?!?  

Seriously I caught part of it...and you're right! Childish and b.s. (butt Sir). :smile:


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## David Frost

The morning was slow, ha ha. Afternoon got extremely hectic. Tomorrow is TATP and HMTD training, so slow early morning, miserable the rest of the day. ha ha

DFrost


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## Mike Lauer

i was kind of exaggerating, 
but once you see a dog that confident and that high in prey it will make you re-evaluate all the dogs you have ever seen


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## Mike Scheiber

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I just call that, not clear in the head. Tranfered aggression. Not sure how many LEO's or anyone in their right mind "wants" a dog leaving the threat and nailing them? You just described, uncontroled.


Call out ends the hold and bark exercise my dog is clear its frustration ware the holes come from Ive gotten full points on both his trials. What exercise demonstrates is the dog being able to follow direction even in there highest drive state.
This has nothing to do with leaving the helper or LEO street dogs its a Schutzhund exercise.


----------



## Candy Eggert

David Frost said:


> Tomorrow is TATP and HMTD training, so slow early morning, miserable the rest of the day. ha ha
> 
> DFrost


hahahaha Now the inmates know the schedule from those who run the asylum :mrgreen: They'll be warmed up by the time you get back ;-)


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## Bob Scott

Candy Eggert said:


> hahahaha Now the inmates know the schedule from those who run the asylum :mrgreen: They'll be warmed up by the time you get back ;-)



Maybe not! :twisted: :wink:


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## Matt Grosch

this brand new michael ellis video (from yesterday?) hits on a lot of this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q17Cye6IwoE


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## Christopher Smith

Mike Lauer said:


> i was kind of exaggerating,
> but once you see a dog that confident and that high in prey it will make you re-evaluate all the dogs you have ever seen


Yep. Until you see it all fall apart one day when the dog sees the threat and does not have the training to know how to deal with it. :-D


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## Matt Grosch

actually, Im not sure if thats the one where he is talking about very confident dogs, etc, but its all great


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## Candy Eggert

Bob Scott said:


> Maybe not! :twisted: :wink:


Oops, the night shift has spoken :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:i was kind of exaggerating, 
but once you see a dog that confident and that high in prey it will make you re-evaluate all the dogs you have ever seen (Matt)

Quote: Yep. Until you see it all fall apart one day when the dog sees the threat and does not have the training to know how to deal with it. (Chris)

I have to disagree with this. I have seen plenty of dogs that are not going to budge because they see threat, just because they are basically prey driven dogs.

If you have a dog that responds to defense, you would work the dog that is in front of you. But if you go out there, and put on your show, and the dog does not respond to it, what is the point of then going out and working defense ??


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## AJ Johnson

yeah keep posting that shows you know what yuor taliking about Im sorry I evern started this thread its full of a bunch of Childish BS good riddens


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## maggie fraser

AJ Johnson said:


> yeah keep posting that shows you know what yuor taliking about Im sorry I evern started this thread its full of a bunch of Childish BS good riddens


 
Does that mean you're taking your bat and ball....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He has a bat, but no balls. LOL


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## David Frost

AJ Johnson said:


> yeah keep posting that shows you know what yuor taliking about Im sorry I evern started this thread its full of a bunch of Childish BS good riddens


The childish remarks we can deal with, and for the most part have. However, when you post a question or a remark, people are free to disagree with you. Through that disagreement, there can come learning or confirmation that you were right. Either way, disagreements, on topic, are not moderated. 

DFrost


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## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have to disagree with this. I have seen plenty of dogs that are not going to budge because they see threat, just because they are basically prey driven dogs.


*Jeff are you honestly saying that you believe that a dog can have such a high prey drive that it will NEVER see a threat?

Or are you saying that the dog will see the threat and simply not react?
*


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sure. Are you so hell bent for leather that you are going to INSIST an pushing a dog into defense ??

I only do Mondio. I am not looking to set the world on fire, and I am sure there are dogs out there that don't need to see defense, as there is no point to showing it to them. 

I am talking about training. I am sure that there are dogs that have little defense response in training, maybe so you wouldn't notice it. I just don't understand why it SEEMS like people would try so hard to do defense work with a dog like that. What is the point ? The dog bites so who cares ??


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## Christopher Smith

Let's stick to one thing at a time.

*Jeff are you honestly saying that you believe that a dog can have such a high prey drive that it will NEVER see a threat?

Or are you saying that the dog will see the threat and simply not react?
*


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Have you seen a Mondio trial ?? Have you seen the work that we do ? I know you are down under and are training for something, I don't know what, but I have watched a few of the videos you put up, and it really is sort of a look at my dogs big balls sort of video. 

I just do Mondio. I am pretty sure that dog of yours, if he was my dog training for Mondio would not go into defense. I just don't need to toss my dog about, or stick him in a tiny room filled with crap. It has no application for what I do.

I have had a hard enough time getting this dog trained without wasting time on stuff that has nothing to do with Mondio.

Hope you can see what I am talking about.


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## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sure. Are you so hell bent for leather that you are going to INSIST an pushing a dog into defense ??


Yes, I believe that the dog should understand what to do when he sees a threat.



> I only do Mondio.


 I'm sorry.:razz:




> I am not looking to set the world on fire, and I am sure there are dogs out there that don't need to see defense, as there is no point to showing it to them.


Unless the dog is incapable of seeing a threat there is a point. Do you know of a dog that can't see a threat? How do you know that a dog can never see a threat? Is there some type of test?



> I am sure that there are dogs that have little defense response in training, maybe so you wouldn't notice it. I just don't understand why it SEEMS like people would try so hard to do defense work with a dog like that.


So are you saying that you do train with defense but it's minor? Are you using this minor defense in a constructive way to help your training or are you just letting whatever happens happen?



> The dog bites so who cares ??


You take pride in your dog (rightly so) and you will when the blinders fall off.


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## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Have you seen a Mondio trial ?? Have you seen the work that we do ? I know you are down under and are training for something, I don't know what, but I have watched a few of the videos you put up, and it really is sort of a look at my dogs big balls sort of video.
> 
> I just do Mondio. I am pretty sure that dog of yours, if he was my dog training for Mondio would not go into defense. I just don't need to toss my dog about, or stick him in a tiny room filled with crap. It has no application for what I do.
> 
> I have had a hard enough time getting this dog trained without wasting time on stuff that has nothing to do with Mondio.
> 
> Hope you can see what I am talking about.


*Jeff are you honestly saying that you believe that a dog can have such a high prey drive that it will NEVER see a threat?

Or are you saying that the dog will see the threat and simply not react?*


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## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't know what, but I have watched a few of the videos you put up, and it really is sort of a look at my dogs big balls sort of video.


You are *mod edit* mistaken. Find one video of my dogs, that I have posted, anywhere on the internet.


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## David Feliciano




----------



## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't know what, but I have watched a few of the videos you put up, and it really is sort of a look at my dogs big balls sort of video.


You are *mod edit* mistaken. Find one video of my dogs, that I have posted, anywhere on the internet.

This mod edit makes it look like I cursed or said something rude to Jeff I simply said he was not telling the truth.:twisted:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Why all the mod edits again ?? LOL

I don't train defense. Sure, the dogs sometimes don't see it that way, and may go into defense, but I am not there to make them defensive. I don't see any point. THe dog either has the balls to do the work, or he doesn't.

I have trained dogs that don't appear to be showing any defense. I do a sport called Mondio, and there is plenty of time to go from a to b to c to d.

The exercises are set up with rules, and I am going to show the dog over time what he will see, and then some. I break it down to the point where the dog is not getting all worried and weird if I can. If they do, then they do, I just don't care. If the dog is that worried, then I certainly would not spend any time with them. Not the way that I work. The dog is taken through the training and I have certainly worked with a few that showed no sign of defense.

Now, what is it that you do that you feel the need to push a dog into defense again ?? Are you SURE that it is defense that you are seeing ?


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## David Feliciano

Jeff, when you had rottweilers did you like to see defense from your dogs?


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff,

I've been confused lately. One of the clubs I've been training with has a portable 3 piece barrier (like a fence only stronger). Flan does better when I work on confidence building and aggression. The TD says "lets work Flan in the fence" and it sounds like "lets work Flan in defense"
and I say I don't want to do that. The TD says "I thought you wanted to work on confidence? It's so confusing


----------



## Candy Eggert

Christopher Smith said:


> You are *mod edit* mistaken. Find one video of my dogs, that I have posted, anywhere on the internet.


Jeff has you confused with Christopher Jones (Dutch Shepherd) in Australia. You know all Christoper's look alike :razz:


----------



## AJ Johnson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He has a bat, but no balls. LOL


Im not going to allow myself to be reduced to your level of BS. I didnt start in sport training. I train dogs to protect my life for me this is not a game. Keep your comments to yourself. My training is proved every day k9 officers come home to their families safe and sound. Please try and defend that with some sport titles.

"It is better to be thought of as a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

Thank you for removing all doubt. BTW just because you have a fan club of fools does not change the fact that sheep follow in flocks.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Candy Eggert said:


> Jeff has you confused with Christopher Jones (Dutch Shepherd) in Australia. You know all Christoper's look alike :razz:


Jeff said "I know you are down under and are training for something, I don't know what, but I have watched a few of the videos you put up, and it really is sort of a look at my dogs big balls sort of video. 
I just do Mondio. I am pretty sure that dog of yours, if he was my dog training for Mondio would not go into defense. I just don't need to toss my dog about, or stick him in a tiny room filled with crap. It has no application for what I do."

WOW...I didnt say a thing, and still found out what Jeff thinks about me and my dog.......8-[ 
But your right Jeff, my dog doesnt go into defence, and he does have quite large balls......


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## Mike Scheiber

Ive had entire posts disappearing you train IPO Jeff is band from the Schutzhund section no way to have any dog discussion with out him boring in with his jeff's 1 man world of goofy yammering.


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## Christopher Smith

Candy Eggert said:


> Jeff has you confused with Christopher Jones (Dutch Shepherd) in Australia. You know all Christoper's look alike :razz:


Yeah figured that out. Too bad the moderator decided to make me look like a cussed Jeff out for making a mistake with his "edit".


----------



## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Why all the mod edits again ?? LOL
> 
> I don't train defense. Sure, the dogs sometimes don't see it that way, and may go into defense, but I am not there to make them defensive.


 Ok , fair enough. Dogs you train sometimes go into defense but that is not your intention. 
When you train a dog that it's about as controlled a situation as there is, yet your dogs sometimes still get defensive. So we can all safely assume in a situation that you have less control over your dog will get defensive more often...like in a trial. So instead of avoiding defense altogether or trying to build my dog up to the point that he will never see the threat (impossible IMO) I prefer to teach the dog to become more aggressive when he gets defensive. It seems to me that if the dog is getting defensive, like your dogs are, and you allow it to go untrained or channeled it may go into some type of behavior you don't want.

And teaching dogs to work through their insecurities does not have to involve some of the BS people are yapping about. You don't have to do a lot to work with some defense. It might just be a stare from the helper, tension in the body or slow movement. It might be very little coming from the helper and stressing the dog with the environment. The level of stress used has to correspond to the dog's temperament , drive, age, purpose, etc. 

With the above said, I understand perfectly well why you want to avoid aggression with a Mondio dog. In that sport the aggression can be exploited and you lose points. But in IPO it's much harder for the dog to be exploited like that so I choose to play my sport with some aggression. It makes things more fun and interesting for me too. 



> Are you SURE that it is defense that you are seeing ?


 I'm too old to be sure of anything these days.


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## ann schnerre

AJ Johnson said:


> BTW just because you have a fan club of fools...


i was just reading along, watching the drama queens get all wild, when i came across this. 

aj, i don't know you, but i take exception to be called a "fool" by you (you don't know me either, BTW). 

jeff certainly doesn't need me to defend him, that's not why i'm replying. 

just please do not call me a fool because i happen to think jeff knows a "leetle bit" where-of he speaks. and i'll take his opinion over yours ANY day, just because i know him, respect his views and you have posted, what, 20 times here? and i have never seen you on any other working dog board that i've been a member of, ever.

so perhaps instead of being all hateful, mean and ugly, you could simply state your position and defend it LOGICALLY--you may get more respect here.

just sayin' =;


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: WOW...I didnt say a thing, and still found out what Jeff thinks about me and my dog

You could have just asked me. I think you have a really nice dog, and I watch you beat it about for no known reason. Not like I am hiding shit. Although I have to admit to having done so in the past, I moved on from that kind of work, and if I thought you would not do so, I would break your balls about it. How I feel about a person is different from how I feel about training. Just like a normal person. LOL

My GF is in the hospital, and has been for the past month so I am pretty much just typing for something to do other than think about that. 

Quote: It seems to me that if the dog is getting defensive, like your dogs are, and you allow it to go untrained or channeled it may go into some type of behavior you don't want.

I don't see much of that. Soda is defensive, but the other two I don't see defense that often. I let the character of the dog take care of that. If the dog is gonna run from a decoy, so be it. I have other things to worry about and it is just a dog. IF the dogs character is weak, and he runs, I am sure I will see it in training long before the dog takes the field.

I also know how easy it is to put a dog in avoidance by applying pressure to early, to often, or just oops. I trained Buko without accessories until I moved to Texas, and they asked me if he had seen them. I said no, he went right through them, as his character is good, AND I had conditioned him to have a strong entry.

Lastly, I have had enough problems finding decoys, and have had to train all the decoys that did most of the work with Buko. I am not about to let them **** about in defense work. I just let it sort itself out. If the dog gets into a situation on a trial field and decides to run, well, I chose the wrong dog. To say that it is necessary to show the dog that I am tougher than he is goes against how I train.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I train dogs to protect my life for me this is not a game. Keep your comments to yourself.

What are you gonna do, sic your dog on me ?? LOL


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
And teaching dogs to work through their insecurities does not have to involve some of the BS people are yapping about.

I do not want to train a dog that has insecurities.

Quote: Yeah figured that out. Too bad the moderator decided to make me look like a cussed Jeff out for making a mistake with his "edit".

I don't mind being cussed at. Never gonna bother me, AND I didn't think you were cussing me out. However, I have no idea why they would edit a response to me. I don't really take it personally.


Quote: Ive had entire posts disappearing you train IPO Jeff is band from the Schutzhund section no way to have any dog discussion with out him boring in with his jeff's 1 man world of goofy yammering.

I have no idea what you are saying. I have yet to do anything other than make you look like an idiot. Your blatant insecurities keep you from posting video of a dog you say you want to show rage and other goofy shit like that. I point out that without all that aggro from the helper your dog melts out, and that is what I call being propped up. You can deny this all you want, and maybe some will believe you, I just don't.

I have everything I have video taped on youtube. Good and bad. I don't edit to make the dog look special, not that I could. That is the difference between us. You have no video of your dog or work, so what you say is just hearsay.

I wish you luck getting your Sch3 on your dog. 

I will be up there this fall. I will bring my suit, and you can try and run my dog, and I will run your dog. Got the guts for that ??


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I trained Buko without accessories until I moved to Texas, and they asked me if he had seen them. I said no, he went right through them


Didn't you get Buko from Ann P as an adult? I'm not questioning his character, but if his foundation was in MR with Ann, even if you weren't training him with accessories, when he saw them in TX it wouldn't have been any big deal, just a case of "I remember this". I do accessory work with my FR dogs as pups for this very reason, so later in life if we do some cross training it's just no big deal, been there done that.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

He was 10 1/2 months. Ann had problems getting him to sit. He was Stuart Hilliards dog. They all say that they did nothing with the dog. I also asked Stuart, who said the same thing.

Who knows what they did with him. I only know what they tell me. I don't see any point in rushing accessory work. Look at the dogs at Nationals that should have been kept off the bite. I know they saw the accessories early. Didn't do them much good. Emily's bitch that she got from Brigita never saw the accessories and went right through them two years later with Kees. It is a matter of character and conditioning. Unless you see it differently.


----------



## Jim Nash

AJ Johnson said:


> yeah keep posting that shows you know what yuor taliking about Im sorry I evern started this thread its full of a bunch of Childish BS good riddens


AJ stick around , we are too far into this for you to bail out now . So far all I've seen from you are opinions and brief statements about your experiance . How about qualifying your opinions with what you have seen through your training with dogs you trained that varified for you that your training is successful .


----------



## Christopher Smith

> I let the character of the dog take care of that.


 I call that pray drive. And I'd rather train than pray. 



> If the dog is gonna run from a decoy, so be it.


 Now that's just F'ed up. Why would you let your dog be put into a situation without giving him the tools to deal with it?



> I have other things to worry about and it is just a dog. IF the dogs character is weak, and he runs, I am sure I will see it in training long before the dog takes the field.


 How are you going to see it if, by your own admission, you don't ever push the dog into his insecure zone? How do you know what a dog's limits are if you never get close enough to see those limits?




> I trained Buko without accessories until I moved to Texas, and they asked me if he had seen them. I said no, he went right through them, as his character is good, AND I had conditioned him to have a strong entry.


 No doubt Buko has nice character. I saw the dog at the Nationals and liked him. But as for him being "conditioned for a strong entry", we both know that as much as we condition a dog to do something sometimes there is a breakdown. I saw other break downs in Buko's conditioning. 



> Lastly, I have had enough problems finding decoys, and have had to train all the decoys that did most of the work with Buko. I am not about to let them **** about in defense work. I just let it sort itself out.


 That sounds perfectly reasonable and I would do the same thing. But this is a long way from you saying that using defense is stupid and useless.



> To say that it is necessary to show the dog that I am tougher than he is goes against how I train.


 This statement shows a fundamental lack of understanding about using defense. You shouldn't be showing the dog that you are tougher than him. You should be teaching the dog that he's tougher than you.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: This statement shows a fundamental lack of understanding about using defense. You shouldn't be showing the dog that you are tougher than him. You should be teaching the dog that he's tougher than you.

There are many ways to do this. I just do it a different way. 

Quote: Now that's just F'ed up. Why would you let your dog be put into a situation without giving him the tools to deal with it?

What situation ? How is it that the dog cannot deal with it ? I pretty much know what my dog is up against, and we train harder than the level three when they are ready for it.

Quote: I call that pray drive. And I'd rather train than pray. 

Did you see the dog run ? I have yet to see a dog in training that I thought would run not run. Mondio is only so hard as far as pressure. I don't need anything else, and I feel that a lot of people are training pretty weak dogs and so maybe they feel the need to do a lot of extra things like work defense. I let the dog work it out. If I see that the dog will run, then he can go to a nice pet home. Mondio is hard, but REALLY ?? REALLY ??

Quote: How are you going to see it if, by your own admission, you don't ever push the dog into his insecure zone? How do you know what a dog's limits are if you never get close enough to see those limits?

Again, I have no idea how to explain to you what I see in a dog. The dog goes A, B, C, D, E, F,. I go way past what a ring three would see. If I see insecurity, then the dog can go live a nice pet life somewhere. I would question the quality of either your dogs, your training, or your ability to read a dog if you still think that the dogs need special training. No character, they run. If you cannot see the character of the dog without training defense, then what can I say. I didn't start training dogs yesterday, and neither did you. I do know plenty of people that do not have the ability to read a dog. 

Quote: No doubt Buko has nice character. I saw the dog at the Nationals and liked him. But as for him being "conditioned for a strong entry", we both know that as much as we condition a dog to do something sometimes there is a breakdown. I saw other break downs in Buko's conditioning. 

Thanks. Maybe the word conditioning is incorrect on my part. He is a dog that decides to do what he wants sometimes. There is a long history of "interesting" decoy work with that dog. LOL Green dog, green decoy, the chickens are coming home to roost. I would like to say I was surprised, but when I walked to the gate, they told me they were not ready yet. THis is a sure way to get my dog stupid. Then, after spending all that money to compete against Tim, to have him replaced on a decision that was not the judges, I have to say I was a bit pissed. There are PLENTY of discrepancies between Tim's work and Jeremy's work. Now before someone loses their damn mind, just go look at the work, and tell me that the work was consistant. I like Jeremy just fine, so no one go there either. It ****ing sucked.

Quote: That sounds perfectly reasonable and I would do the same thing. But this is a long way from you saying that using defense is stupid and useless.

I believe that it is. You believe that it is not. What can I say ? Have you trained a dog the way I do ? I certainly have trained a dog the way you do, I just stopped. 

Quote: This statement shows a fundamental lack of understanding about using defense. You shouldn't be showing the dog that you are tougher than him. You should be teaching the dog that he's tougher than you

No, this statement shows my disdain for that type of work. That is all. I feel that a decoy should be the dogs bitch. If he is the dogs bitch long enough, and the decoy steps up, the dog should have the character to knock that bitch back. I do not think like other people. I want the dog to prove to ME that he is worth a ****. If he cannot, then he can run off the field. 

Back when I was young, we shot them if they ran, but the old ladies would probably flip if I did that. I considered it that day, believe me.


----------



## David Feliciano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Back when I was young, we shot them if they ran, but the old ladies would probably flip if I did that. I considered it that day, believe me.


So instead you sold him to Carol Boche?


----------



## Martine Loots

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Why all the mod edits again ?? LOL
> 
> I don't train defense. Sure, the dogs sometimes don't see it that way, and may go into defense, but I am not there to make them defensive. I don't see any point. THe dog either has the balls to do the work, or he doesn't.


Fully agree here. This is the perfect summary of the topic.

Either a dog is serious, or he isn't and this has nothing to do with training. And as a handler you should be objective enough to "read" your dog and know which type of dog he is.

And indeed, for SPORTS I don't see any point to make a dog go into defense. 
Also with serious dogs, we always try to keep the training a game and very clean. Otherwise you get problems with control and outs, because a serious dog will keep going into fight modus if you provoke him.

For a dog that has to work the streets there is a difference. I'd also confront him with as many situations as possible so he gets experience. But then again, it's ONLY to give the dog experience. NOT to form his character and make him more serious, because this has to be there genetically.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Martine Loots said:


> Fully agree here. This is the perfect summary of the topic.
> 
> Either a dog is serious, or he isn't and this has nothing to do with training. And as a handler you should be objective enough to "read" your dog and know which type of dog he is.
> 
> And indeed, for SPORTS I don't see any point to make a dog go into defense.
> Also with serious dogs, we always try to keep the training a game and very clean. Otherwise you get problems with control and outs, because a serious dog will keep going into fight modus if you provoke him.
> 
> For a dog that has to work the streets there is a difference. I'd also confront him with as many situations as possible so he gets experience. But then again, it's ONLY to give the dog experience. NOT to form his character and make him more serious, because this has to be there genetically.


So you want an active fight driven dog rather than a re-active defence based dog. 
Makes sense to me.


----------



## AJ Johnson

ann schnerre said:


> i was just reading along, watching the drama queens get all wild, when i came across this.
> 
> aj, i don't know you, but i take exception to be called a "fool" by you (you don't know me either, BTW).
> 
> jeff certainly doesn't need me to defend him, that's not why i'm replying.
> 
> just please do not call me a fool because i happen to think jeff knows a "leetle bit" where-of he speaks. and i'll take his opinion over yours ANY day, just because i know him, respect his views and you have posted, what, 20 times here? and i have never seen you on any other working dog board that i've been a member of, ever.
> 
> so perhaps instead of being all hateful, mean and ugly, you could simply state your position and defend it LOGICALLY--you may get more respect here.
> 
> just sayin' =;


I did not specifically point out who the fan club of fools were. HOwever thank you for showing yourself LOL. I could care less about respect on boards you guys are retarded if you think the board defines success in training methodology or level of importance. I train real life and real aspects. I posted a question in hopes to have some educated discussion regarding topics I like to discuss. Instead it turned into a bunch of idiots bashing and trying to have a sword measuring contest. As you add to my post count as if that measures my knowledge on anything on the board discussed. That comment in and of itself locates your mental level. Thanks you.


----------



## maggie fraser

AJ Johnson said:


> I did not specifically point out who the fan club of fools were. HOwever thank you for showing yourself LOL. I could care less about respect on boards you guys are retarded if you think the board defines success in training methodology or level of importance. I train real life and real aspects. I posted a question in hopes to have some educated discussion regarding topics I like to discuss. Instead it turned into a bunch of idiots bashing and trying to have a sword measuring contest. As you add to my post count as if that measures my knowledge on anything on the board discussed. That comment in and of itself locates your mental level. Thanks you.


 
Did you forget your ball ? ;-)


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## Al Curbow

AJ, let's see some video of your training and your dogs.


----------



## tracey schneider

I don’t see a reason to work defense in the ring sports, but I am just going by one trial and a few videos on the internet but it appears to be all prey work so why would anyone go there? Correct me if I am wrong. As already mentioned you hear of it more in Sch/ IPO. Sch is supposed to have “defense” exercises and be a “balanced” sport showing defense/ prey and the dog’s ability to transitions seamlessly while maintaining a clearhead under strict control. Can you get away without utilizing defense in Sch today? yes

t


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

tracey delin said:


> I don’t see a reason to work defense in the ring sports, but I am just going by one trial and a few videos on the internet but it appears to be all prey work so why would anyone go there? Correct me if I am wrong.


OK, you have been corrected 

Ring sports are not prey only sports. The shift in drives in the dog while it's working isn't as obvious as in Sch, since many of the Sch dogs are trained specifically in one drive or another, to "showcase" the drives. But there is a "flow" of drives, usually seen more by a shift in the body posture, ears, tail carriage, etc but sometimes shown by the dog heading the opposite direction from the decoy. 

The Ring decoy is not just some bunny rabbit the dogs chase and dominate, if that was the case any dog with the desire to bite could go out and get an FRIII, MRIII, BRI, etc He's there to fight the dog, find holes in the training, and if possible (within the appropriate level of work for that level of competition) keep the dog from biting.


----------



## Martine Loots

tracey delin said:


> I don’t see a reason to work defense in the ring sports, but I am just going by one trial and a few videos on the internet but it appears to be all prey work so why would anyone go there? Correct me if I am wrong. As already mentioned you hear of it more in Sch/ IPO. * Sch is supposed to have “defense” exercises and be a “balanced” sport showing defense/ prey and the dog’s ability to transitions seamlessly while maintaining a clearhead under strict control*. Can you get away without utilizing defense in Sch today? yes
> 
> t


?????
No offense, but I don't see where a dog needs courage in SCH or IPO.
On the contrary, the dogs I see performing well there all are sporty types. Will to please dogs. 
The exercises are always the same so almost every dog can be conditioned to do them.

This doesn't mean I don't respect these disciplines. Performing on high level deserves respect in any sport and it takes a lot of work to get there.


----------



## tracey schneider

Kadi Thingvall said:


> OK, you have been corrected
> 
> Ring sports are not prey only sports. The shift in drives in the dog while it's working isn't as obvious as in Sch, since many of the Sch dogs are trained specifically in one drive or another, to "showcase" the drives. But there is a "flow" of drives, usually seen more by a shift in the body posture, ears, tail carriage, etc but sometimes shown by the dog heading the opposite direction from the decoy.
> 
> The Ring decoy is not just some bunny rabbit the dogs chase and dominate, if that was the case any dog with the desire to bite could go out and get an FRIII, MRIII, BRI, etc He's there to fight the dog, find holes in the training, and if possible (within the appropriate level of work for that level of competition) keep the dog from biting.


No I don’t think any dog could go out and Ring III because it can bite, is not the “mentally hardest” part of Ring the OB, OB during bitework, maintaining the drive and control throughout, and then there is the physical aspects on top of that? Some sports add the environmental pressures. Not all dogs that can bite can do that, I don’t think that for a second. Is it not that if a dog is shifting in and out of "defense" drive in ring, is that not back on the dog itself and not so much the sport? Does ring specifically require defense? Im seriously asking… as I haven’t looked at all the rule books. Can you share some videos…. 
t


----------



## tracey schneider

Martine Loots said:


> ?????
> No offense, but I don't see where a dog needs courage in SCH or IPO.
> On the contrary, the dogs I see performing well there all are sporty types. Will to please dogs.
> The exercises are always the same so almost every dog can be conditioned to do them.
> 
> This doesn't mean I don't respect these disciplines. Performing on high level deserves respect in any sport and it takes a lot of work to get there.



Did you read what I wrote? Ill highlight the parts I think you missed or misunderstood and I didnt write courage anywhere so I cant highlight that one:wink:

Sch is *supposed* to have “defense” exercises and be a “balanced” sport showing defense/ prey and the dog’s ability to transitions seamlessly while maintaining a clearhead under strict control. *Can you get away without utilizing defense in Sch today? yes*


----------



## tracey schneider

Martine Loots said:


> ?????
> This doesn't mean I don't respect these disciplines. Performing on high level deserves respect in any sport and it takes a lot of work to get there.


yup yup, definitely agree. not into the sport bashing.... its all just a sport.:-D


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

tracey delin said:


> Does ring specifically require defense? Im seriously asking… as I haven’t looked at all the rule books. Can you share some videos….


French and Mondio Ring requires that the dog bite. Belgian Ring requires that the dog bites full. The difference between the biting style (BR scoring it, FR/MR not) being based in part on the difference in the style of decoy work between the sports.

In Ring as long as the dog is biting, it doesn't matter what drive(s) the dog is in. This is why I said Sch is supposed to showcase each of the drives, making the shift in drive more obvious and in Ring it is more of a subtle flow when it happens.

This attitude (lack of concern about specific drives) has been mentioned on her before, the players in Ring in Europe talk about wether the dog bites or not, or talk about the dogs character, but you don't hear discussions of drives. 

IMO the reason we have these discussions in the US so much, including among the players in Ring, is because Schutzhund was the first major protection sport in the US, and to this day is still the biggest. And it's the only one that specifically wants to see the dog in different drives in different parts of the routine. I would also estimate that over 1/2 the people currently training in Ring (MR or FR) in the US came from a Sch background. And many of those that didn't, are in clubs where the more experienced members did. 

I have lots of FR videos on my website www.dantero.com/videos.php


----------



## tracey schneider

Ok that answered my questions and I THINK we are saying the same thing?.... hard to tell on a mb. I don’t have time to sift through videos this week… I hope to play around with them next week and I may have more questions or comments then.

Thanks Kadi…

t


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> NOT to form his character and make him more serious, because this has to be there genetically.


Did anyone say that that it was to "form character"? 

I don't use defense for that. I use it to teach the dog what to do when his character is not enough or his training fails him. For instance, let's say a dog with great character is put into a novel situation. He sees helper with a style that he has never seen before and the helper starts to find holes in the training that confuse and stress the dog. Some dogs that don't know what to do when they feel overwhelmed in this situation will quit engaging the decoy. Whereas if someone had taught the dog that when he is put in this situation he can overcome this helper by becoming more aggressive he might not leave the helper. 

And you're right about it being there genetically. But just like other drives if it is never trained the dog might not show it at the times we want him to. 

All dogs, like people, have character flaws. All dog's training can be exploited. ALL OF THEM. I just choose to train with as much of what the dog is giving me as possible. If you choose to do otherwise


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> ?????
> No offense, but I don't see where a dog needs courage in SCH or IPO.



If a tree falls in the woods and Martine is not there to hear it........


----------



## Gillian Schuler

First off, have never done Mondio Ring, French or Belgian Ring but have trialled lIPO 3 with a Briard, SG.

I have a little bit of trouble here in understanding the bitework. All our (good) dogs, GSD and Malinois bite!
The problem some have is to ensure that the dogs bites when and not before he should! Here I'm talking about Schutzhund (IPO), i.e. control work.

We're talking about two completely different sports and somehow I feel that some folks are saying, Schutzhund - any dog will do and Mondio, Fr/Bel Ring only the strong dogs will do. I know that most of you don't intend to say this (or do you :roll but I know for a fact that a weak IPO Malinois entered Mondio and had better results (who knows why?).

We have strong Malinois and strong GSDs in Europe that are difficult to conduct through the IPO /SchH trials. Some of these dogs are good breeding material but, cannot high score! There is fortunately a number of handlers in Germany (and Switzerland) who prefer these dogs even so.

One day, I will get behind this. We have Mondio and IPO helpers who interact.

If I were many years' younger, I would try Mondio or FR Ring as I see a lot of advantages in it but, I have to question a lot of USA handlers who condemn Schutzhund as "nothing" but,
at it's highest level, Schutzhund is acclaimed in the USA and otherwise not????


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> Did anyone say that that it was to "form character"?
> 
> I don't use defense for that. I use it to teach the dog what to do when his character is not enough or his training fails him. For instance, let's say a dog with* great character* is put into a novel situation. He sees helper with a style that* he has never seen before and the helper starts to find holes in the training that confuse and stress the dog*. Some dogs that don't know what to do when they feel overwhelmed in this situation will quit engaging the decoy. Whereas if someone had taught the dog that when he is put in this situation he can overcome this helper by becoming more aggressive he might not leave the helper.
> 
> And you're right about it being there genetically. But just like other drives if it is never trained the dog might not show it at the times we want him to.
> 
> All dogs, like people, have character flaws. All dog's training can be exploited. ALL OF THEM. I just choose to train with as much of what the dog is giving me as possible. If you choose to do otherwise



I put the parts in bold that don't go together...
I can follow what you are saying but IMO then you don't have a dog with "great character". If your dog has "enough", he won't get owerwhelmed in any situation. Only problem you could have is the control. He may get in overdrive and not "out" anymore. But I can live with that ;-)

We never use the terms "prey" and "defence" over here but one thing I know for sure from all I read here: I certainly wouldn't keep a dog if I had to go through all those procedures to get a result. For me he has to face the fact that he has to be a real dog without all the "fixing". If he doesn't, too bad, then he'll go to a home where the only thing he'll have to do is bark and eat...


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> All dogs, like people, have character flaws. All dog's training can be exploited. ALL OF THEM. I just choose to train with as much of what the dog is giving me as possible. If you choose to do otherwise



I want that specific dog with the least character flaws, but I admit this isn't easy. However the ones that don't answer the "ideal dog image" aren't worth it to continue the training


----------



## Martine Loots

Gillian Schuler said:


> We're talking about two completely different sports and somehow I feel that some folks are saying, Schutzhund - any dog will do and Mondio, Fr/Bel Ring only the strong dogs will do.


No, I also know a lot of highh scoring ring dogs that I wouldn't want in my kennels...



Gillian Schuler said:


> We have strong Malinois and strong GSDs in Europe that are difficult to conduct through the IPO /SchH trials. Some of these dogs are good breeding material but, cannot high score! There is fortunately a number of handlers in Germany (and Switzerland) who prefer these dogs even so.



True. Strong character and flashy, will to please just don't go together


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Thank you. Agreed.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have to question a lot of USA handlers who condemn Schutzhund as "nothing" but, at it's highest level, Schutzhund is acclaimed in the USA and otherwise not????


It's a bad idea to form opinions based on what you read on discussion boards. Come on over and see things for yourself. :smile:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

You paying my ticket huh!


----------



## David Feliciano

Christopher Smith said:


> Did anyone say that that it was to "form character"?
> 
> I don't use defense for that. I use it to teach the dog what to do when his character is not enough or his training fails him. For instance, let's say a dog with great character is put into a novel situation. He sees helper with a style that he has never seen before and the helper starts to find holes in the training that confuse and stress the dog. Some dogs that don't know what to do when they feel overwhelmed in this situation will quit engaging the decoy. Whereas if someone had taught the dog that when he is put in this situation he can overcome this helper by becoming more aggressive he might not leave the helper.


Chris, do you mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-emBLEj9Ow8


----------



## David Feliciano

Martine Loots said:


> I can follow what you are saying but IMO then you don't have a dog with "great character". If your dog has "enough", he won't get owerwhelmed in any situation. Only problem you could have is the control. He may get in overdrive and not "out" anymore. But I can live with that ;-)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-emBLEj9Ow8

I guess this dog just didn't have enough


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> We never use the terms "prey" and "defence" over here ....


Maybe not in your sport, but I know for a fact they use those terms in IPO.


----------



## Martine Loots

David Feliciano said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-emBLEj9Ow8
> 
> I guess this dog just didn't have enough



One thing I know for sure and that is that he had far too much for you to be able to handle :wink:

And if you don't see the reason why the dog hesitated here then maybe you should hurry to improve your knowledge 
Do some googling and you will know what happened there (and what they also admitted). I'm not going to write it down again :wink:

I can't help it that you're so frustrated :wink:


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> Maybe not in your sport, but I know for a fact they use those terms in IPO.


Could very well be, but when I say "over here", I don't mean IPO.


----------



## David Feliciano

Martine Loots said:


> One thing I know for sure and that is that he had far too much for you to be able to handle :wink:
> 
> And if you don't see the reason why the dog hesitated here then maybe you should hurry to improve your knowledge
> Do some googling and you will know what happened there (and what they also admitted). I'm not going to write it down again :wink:
> 
> I can't help it that you're so frustrated :wink:


LOL you know nothing about what I can or can't handle. You couldn't handle my BBC. He hesitated cause Herr Scherkl put the wood to him. He hadn't seen such pressure and didn't have enough character to overcome it without additional training


----------



## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> You paying my ticket huh!


Nope, but I'll give you a place to stay, a car and feed you.


----------



## Martine Loots

David Feliciano said:


> LOL you know nothing about what I can or can't handle. You couldn't handle my BBC. He hesitated cause Herr Scherkl put the wood to him. He hadn't seen such pressure and didn't have enough character to overcome it without additional training


"zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz" good night. Keep on dreaming...


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Maybe one day!


----------



## David Feliciano

I dreamt once I saw of video of your dog running off the bite after being flanked, being held off by Gene Simmons with cheerleader pom poms, and refusing to run up a hill to attack the decoy


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz" good night. Keep on dreaming...


It takes character and training to stay in the fight.:-\"


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> If your dog has "enough", he won't get owerwhelmed in any situation.


There is only one dog that can't be overwhelmed.


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> It takes character and training to stay in the fight.:-\"


The fight has to be worth it and I wouldn't call this a fight :wink:

(hope I understood you right (no fighting with you, I mean). If not, don't blame me as English is not my native language)


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## David Feliciano

No speaka English

My girlfirend is in the hopistal

My dog is sick

Looks like Christopher Smith is the conductor. Now boarding the Excuse Express. All aboard!!!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
I want that specific dog with the least character flaws, but I admit this isn't easy. However the ones that don't answer the "ideal dog image" aren't worth it to continue the training

Well, America would drive you shit house. We train all kinds of shitters here. I wouldn't feed most of the dogs I have seen in competition. Yet here we just train them anyway, and then make the sport easier, so that people can compete with their shitters.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Don't think it's different anywhere else in the world!

Sometimes, yes, but always not!


----------



## Al Curbow

Again, i've seen plenty of video of Martine's dogs and training, let's see some of yours Christopher.


----------



## David Feliciano

Al Curbow said:


> Again, i've seen plenty of video of Martine's dogs and training, let's see some of yours Christopher.


You mean Martine's husband's dogs and training?


----------



## maggie fraser

David Feliciano said:


> No speaka English
> 
> My girlfirend is in the hopistal
> 
> My dog is sick
> 
> Looks like Christopher Smith is the conductor. Now boarding the Excuse Express. All aboard!!!


You forgot....

Menofuk all and likestostirtheshit Felatio.!


----------



## David Feliciano

maggie fraser said:


> You forgot....
> 
> Menofuk all and likestostirtheshit Felatio.!


----------



## Martine Loots

David Feliciano said:


> You mean Martine's husband's dogs and training?


Nah he meant me and my dogs too. Just google honey, there"s plenty... :wink:


----------



## David Feliciano

Martine Loots said:


> Nah he meant me and my dogs too. Just google honey, there"s plenty... :wink:


Will do sugar nips


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Christopher Smith said:


> Did anyone say that that it was to "form character"?
> 
> I don't use defense for that. I use it to teach the dog what to do when his character is not enough or his training fails him. For instance, let's say a dog with great character is put into a novel situation. He sees helper with a style that he has never seen before and the helper starts to find holes in the training that confuse and stress the dog. Some dogs that don't know what to do when they feel overwhelmed in this situation will quit engaging the decoy. Whereas if someone had taught the dog that when he is put in this situation he can overcome this helper by becoming more aggressive he might not leave the helper.
> 
> And you're right about it being there genetically. But just like other drives if it is never trained the dog might not show it at the times we want him to.
> 
> All dogs, like people, have character flaws. All dog's training can be exploited. ALL OF THEM. I just choose to train with as much of what the dog is giving me as possible. If you choose to do otherwise


I'm glad you wrote this Chistopher. I had this happen to my dog at trial, thankfully when the decoy showed him some weird moves and my dog failed to get a good bite and found it very hard to get in there for another, he kept at it. That guy saw the hole, tried to run my dog but my dog stuck with his ass, getting stepped on and ran over. Unfortunatly, we didn't pass because then he wouldn't out the guy for punking him. The next day, my dog adjusted to his style and landed every bite on him but didn't forget this was the guy that screwed him, and still wouldn't out. First time I have seen my dog get pissed or take anything personal. We don't have an out problem but we sure looked like it that weekend.

It does have to be there in the genes, but it is good for a dog to see he can be pressured and overcome it on top. Thankfully we train that way and not all in prey.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Martine Loots said:


> Nah he meant me and my dogs too. Just google honey, there"s plenty... :wink:


That would ruin his moment if he did that Martine. :-\"
I read a quote on another forum that said "Its the empty cans that rattle the most". 
So please keep uploading your videos of your badly trained, soft, non-defence minded dogs, and I for one will continue to enjoy watching them.


----------



## Diana Abel

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I'm glad you wrote this Chistopher. I had this happen to my dog at trial, thankfully when the decoy showed him some weird moves and my dog failed to get a good bite and found it very hard to get in there for another, he kept at it. That guy saw the hole, tried to run my dog but my dog stuck with his ass, getting stepped on and ran over. Unfortunatly, we didn't pass because then he wouldn't out the guy for punking him. The next day, my dog adjusted to his style and landed every bite on him but didn't forget this was the guy that screwed him, and still wouldn't out. First time I have seen my dog get pissed or take anything personal. We don't have an out problem but we sure looked like it that weekend.
> 
> It does have to be there in the genes, but it is good for a dog to see he can be pressured and overcome it on top. Thankfully we train that way and not all in prey.


Damn, I hope you got video of that!


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Christopher Jones said:


> So please keep uploading your videos of your badly trained, soft, non-defence minded dogs, and I for one will continue to enjoy watching them.


I really enjoy watching your videos also.


----------



## David Feliciano

Looks like Martine lacks the character to stay in the fight when it stops going her way. Or maybe like her dog she just didn't see the point in fighting? Training issue IMO


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I'm glad you wrote this Chistopher. I had this happen to my dog at trial, thankfully when the decoy showed him some weird moves and my dog failed to get a good bite and found it very hard to get in there for another, he kept at it. That guy saw the hole, tried to run my dog but my dog stuck with his ass, getting stepped on and ran over. Unfortunatly, we didn't pass because then he wouldn't out the guy for punking him.

I cry bullshit. I have seen just as many dogs worked in defense run, or quit. The character of the dog is not improved by defense. Sorry, just don't see it that way. Your dog would have done that regardless of that kind of work. The dog has good character, and NOTHING you do in training is going to improve on that.


----------



## Martine Loots

David Feliciano said:


> Looks like Martine lacks the character to stay in the fight when it stops going her way. Or maybe like her dog she just didn't see the point in fighting? Training issue IMO


 
Never heard about world time zones???
I wasn't going to lose my sleep waiting until you finished googling...


----------



## Martine Loots

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The character of the dog is not improved by defense. Sorry, just don't see it that way. Your dog would have done that regardless of that kind of work. The dog has good character, and NOTHING you do in training is going to improve on that.


I second that.
I also admit that it's good to show the dog as much as possible to prepare him for this kind of situations, but there is no need for defense to do this.


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## David Feliciano

Martine Loots said:


> I second that.
> I also admit that it's good to show the dog as much as possible to prepare him for this kind of situations, but there is no need for defense to do this.


If showing the dog as much as possible happens to bring the dog into defense it is best to have a decoy that knows how to capitalize on this. If the dog is going to go there then you better know how to handle it in training. Otherwise you are training in pray drive, hoping and praying the dog either doesn't go into defense during a trial or deals with it appropriately without any training (very unlikely). There seems to be a misconception on this thread. A dog who goes into aggression or defense during a trial isn't necessarily going to become hesitant or weak. Quite the opposite might happen.


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## Martine Loots

David Feliciano said:


> If showing the dog as much as possible happens to bring the dog into defense it is best to have a decoy that knows how to capitalize on this. If the dog is going to go there then you better know how to handle it in training. Otherwise you are training in pray drive, hoping and praying the dog either doesn't go into defense during a trial or deals with it appropriately without any training (very unlikely). There seems to be a misconception on this thread. A dog who goes into aggression or defense during a trial isn't necessarily going to become hesitant or weak. *Quite the opposite might happen*.


This is true and this is exactly why we avoid it during training. If my dog gets really angry, he won't out anymore and I'll have to go deep with the punishment to keep control. And he'll get angry because I punish so hard and get into fight drive even more. This turns into a vicious circle with a big risk of control problems or getting bitten.

So yes, I prefer the risk of him getting into fight drive and not wanting to out anymore if such a situation would occasionally occur during a trial.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No no, Martine, listen to him. He knows.


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## andreas broqvist

Martine.
How do you work you digs in Muzzel?
Do you use prey drive ore do you tap in to a more serius/domenationg side.


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## Michelle Reusser

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I'm glad you wrote this Chistopher. I had this happen to my dog at trial, thankfully when the decoy showed him some weird moves and my dog failed to get a good bite and found it very hard to get in there for another, he kept at it. That guy saw the hole, tried to run my dog but my dog stuck with his ass, getting stepped on and ran over. Unfortunatly, we didn't pass because then he wouldn't out the guy for punking him.
> 
> I cry bullshit. I have seen just as many dogs worked in defense run, or quit. The character of the dog is not improved by defense. Sorry, just don't see it that way. Your dog would have done that regardless of that kind of work. The dog has good character, and NOTHING you do in training is going to improve on that.


OK, fair enough but how many want to wait until trial to see what a dog will do? I had big time faith in my dog but I still allmost shit my pants there for a few. How are you going to know what you have until you show the dog and see his reaction? How many want to shitcan a dog BEFORE he gets ran at a trial? I have always thought my dog was strong but I never stop wondering what he will do when he sees something new for the frst time. 

Like they say "every dog CAN be ran" do most just HOPE it doesn't happen at the wrong time? Even if a dog is strong, isn't it better for him to see as much as possible, build slowly before really putting it on him? I'm sure the answers are different per venue. It's not life or death if a sport dog gets ran but could be if your talking PPD or PK-9. I wanna know, cause I wanna know what my dog really is before I decide to breed.

I'm realistic and know your not going to take a shitter and make him a winner but who doesn't try and build up a good dog even more? The way some talk about working in defense, it's like you really believe it's tearing them down or doing some sort of damage to a dog. I know it can happen (seen some terrible video of idiots working dogs) but if you have someone who really can read dogs and just touches on defense here and there, what is the harm?

I feel like it may be equivalent to getting your wife a gun, but not showing her how to load or shoot it. She may feel prepaired/safe but is she really? I don't think it's enough to show a dog he can bite and send him out into the world with just that. She may get a lucky shot off or have some raw tallent but you wont know until you give her the tools and watch what happens. The more she shoots, the more comfortable she gets, hopefully her aim improves at a steady pace.

If my post doesn't make sense, it's 330am I'm going on 3hrs sleep.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: How are you going to know what you have until you show the dog and see his reaction?

Maybe train a few more dogs and learn to read them ? I am being serious. How many people did all that defense work, and the dog still ran ? Do you think that it was beneficial then ? What happens when oooops, the new helper puts your dog into avoidance ? I trial to see what my dog is, as well as (well before Buko) to see my training. If the dog runs, and I didn't have a clue, well, all the defense crap is not going to save you from a dog with shit character.

Quote: but who doesn't try and build up a good dog even more?

Read what Martine wrote about this, and then you start judging what you have in front of you, and what should be considered as the standard for "good". That is a start. The other thing is you are not making a dogs character better. It is what it is. What you are doing is making YOURSELF feel better about the dog. When you can admit that your own insecurities are projected through the dog that way, you can get on, and stop wasting energy training things that don't matter.

Quote: I don't think it's enough to show a dog he can bite and send him out into the world with just that.

But that is what many many people do at a base level, (see martine's example) and their dogs are doing nicely. Not only that, they are doing better than our dogs here in the states where defense is done a lot. 

I give my dog as many opportunities to see what he will come up against. He is not unprepared, and I cannot prepare character. They are what they are. You can break them in training with too much pressure, and they will run, you can do defense and they will run, you can do no defense and they will run. It is just what they are.

Quote: Even if a dog is strong, isn't it better for him to see as much as possible, build slowly before really putting it on him?

Why not just train the exercises ? Are they not enough ? Going slow is not going to change what the dogs character is either. I know you almost shit your pants, but why had the dog NOT seen whatever it was before he went to trial ?? Are you guilty of training for the one, then going out and getting it before training the two, ect ect ??


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## Martine Loots

andreas broqvist said:


> Martine.
> How do you work you digs in Muzzel?
> Do you use prey drive ore do you tap in to a more serius/domenationg side.


This was Fils' first time with the muzzle. 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2331983905478258851#


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## Martine Loots

Michelle Kehoe said:


> OK, fair enough but how many want to wait until trial to see what a dog will do? I had big time faith in my dog but I still allmost shit my pants there for a few.


As Jeff already said, a handler must know his dog and be honest about that. He should know the dog's qualities and weaknesses. I don't need those tests to know what my dog is capable of.
And I think you did too as you said you always were very confident about him.

And shit happens, also during trials but often there are other reasons then the dog's character. 
If so, well too bad, next time better.
I've seen a very good strong dog do a stopped attack when he shouldn't have, just because he bit the stopped attack a few times and they had been punishing him to solve the problem. The next trial the attack looked exactly the same then the one he had been punished on for biting. So he did a stopped attack and lost 35pts.
Does this mean he's a shitty dog? No, not at all. Of course people started talking but the handler didn't care as he knew the reason why it happened.


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## Michelle Reusser

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 
> Maybe train a few more dogs and learn to read them ? I am being serious. How many people did all that defense work, and the dog still ran ? Do you think that it was beneficial then ? What happens when oooops, the new helper puts your dog into avoidance ? I trial to see what my dog is, as well as (well before Buko) to see my training. If the dog runs, and I didn't have a clue, well, all the defense crap is not going to save you from a dog with shit character.
> 
> I'm trying to handle a few more dogs but keep shitcaning them because they aren't as strong as this dog. I don't want to go backwards or start making excusses for my dogs.
> 
> Read what Martine wrote about this, and then you start judging what you have in front of you, and what should be considered as the standard for "good". That is a start. The other thing is you are not making a dogs character better. It is what it is. What you are doing is making YOURSELF feel better about the dog. When you can admit that your own insecurities are projected through the dog that way, you can get on, and stop wasting energy training things that don't matter.
> 
> I'll agree about my insecurities and trying to prove things to myself. I get told time and time again, to stop worrying about my dog.
> 
> 
> Why not just train the exercises ? Are they not enough ? Going slow is not going to change what the dogs character is either. I know you almost shit your pants, but why had the dog NOT seen whatever it was before he went to trial ?? Are you guilty of training for the one, then going out and getting it before training the two, ect ect ??


Excersizes change and have variables. I have been thinking hard on why this decoy had this effect, I thought a different catching style and driving technique? He seemed to esquive the dogs rather than absorb the hit and many dogs were having the same issue with him but in the long run, it's still my fault for not having him see that. I went to different clubs when he was a pup, Sch, FR and PSA, we also used to have allot more visitors from Mondio, Police etc in the begining but things have really slimmed down along with my pocketbook. We aren't seeing as many decoys as we used to. I'm starting to sound like I'm making excusses, so I'll just shut up now.

No I'm not really guilty of training just for the 1, we have been getting ready for the 2's for awhile now. Actually we did the 2 OB portion the second day of trial and if my stupid dog would have outted this guy in the 1's, we would have passed the 1 with flying colors and finished up the bitework portion of the 2's at the end of the day.


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## Michelle Reusser

If you can see well enough, shred away. Not sure about anyone else but it's too dark to see much, unless I stand up and look down at my monitor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVGgya2wuMY

Please no comments on my fat pregnant state. Video is 2/3's trying to get the dog to out and the trial secritary helping me choke him off, which still wasn't succesfull. ****er wagged his tail the whole time and was countering into the bite while being lifted.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I'm starting to sound like I'm making excusses, so I'll just shut up now.

Don't fall for the excuses bullshit. 

You always have to look at your training like that. Sometimes money is a big issue. Logistics are a bitch here in the US. 

However, if you DO think like that, you can work out a plan to solve the issues for the next trial. I just don't look at them as excuses, just reality, and how do I get around it ?? 

Logistics have come back to bite me in the ass, as I had to train new decoys on my dog way too many times. I always feel I am being selfish if I don't let them work a dog that knows the 3 exercises. 

However, if you watch the Nationals, you can see how big that chunk is out of my ass. Buko does what he wants, and damn the punishment, and has been like that a long time. Then he will go out and do really nice work as well. Not going to change much now, as he is almost 7.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sorry, I cannot see shit.


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## Michelle Reusser

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sorry, I cannot see shit.


I know, sucks. My husband is fired since he can't seem to use the zoom. Our club video'd also, maybe one day I will get that version.


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## Joby Becker

It looked like he had to work a little for that one, and just wasn't letting it go..

just said F you...


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## Christopher Smith

> Maybe train a few more dogs and learn to read them ?


 If you believe that your dog is has so much character that he can NEVER be overwhelmed, maybe you should learn to read a dog. 



> How many people did all that defense work, and the dog still ran ?


 I don't know , nor do you. But this is not about dogs running it's about using all that the dog brings to the table to make him the best he can be. 




> What happens when oooops, the new helper puts your dog into avoidance ?


 You kick your own ass for putting your dog on an inexperienced helper. 



> If the dog runs, and I didn't have a clue, well, all the defense crap is not going to save you from a dog with shit character.


 Jeff listen up and listen good. It's not about a dog running. Some dogs are going to spin up and get uncontrolled. Some are going to make little mistakes on exercises they are normally perfect with. The point is that if the blinders fall off and the dog sees the threat his behavior will change from what he normally does in the safe, warm marsupial pouch of his normal pray training. 



> The other thing is you are not making a dogs character better. It is what it is


 Stop with the false arguments. You and Martine are the only ones on this thread that are talking about it changing the dog's character.




> But that is what many many people do at a base level, (see martine's example) and their dogs are doing nicely.


 Some are doing nicely, but unfortunately some are not doing so nice. And of those doing nice maybe some can do even better if all of their drives were utilized. 



> I know you almost shit your pants, but why had the dog NOT seen whatever it was before he went to trial ??


 Jeff a person has to be delusional of just plain stupid to believe that you can show a dog everything.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: If you believe that your dog is has so much character that he can NEVER be overwhelmed, maybe you should learn to read a dog. 

I do Mondio Chris, what the heck are you thinking is going on, and what is it that you think the decoys are doing, and what has this to do with the fact that training defense is for the insecure, or the behavior shapers. Lets face it, you cannot prove one way or the other that a dog benefits from defense.

I have never seen it matter. However, have you trained a dog without all the defense ? I mean if you have, then your opinion is a little more valid.

Quote: I don't know , nor do you. But this is not about dogs running it's about using all that the dog brings to the table to make him the best he can be

Myth conjecture and superstition. I have seen some really nice dogs, and so have you, that competed at very high levels against the best competition out there, that didn't go through this balancing crapola that you sell. They aren't buying, and neither am I.

Quote: You kick your own ass for putting your dog on an inexperienced helper. 

Wrong, the answer is just don't waste your time with it. It makes no difference in the dogs character.

Quote: Jeff listen up and listen good. It's not about a dog running. Some dogs are going to spin up and get uncontrolled. Some are going to make little mistakes on exercises they are normally perfect with. The point is that if the blinders fall off and the dog sees the threat his behavior will change from what he normally does in the save, warm marsupial pouch of his normal pray training. 

Listen, and listen good ? You ****ing crack me up. I don't believe any of that crap you just spewed all over my screen. You compete in the most pathetic of all the bitesports, and you think that working a dog in defense is going to save the dog from making little mistakes ?? Good God that's retarded. What happens when you have to whip the **** out of them to get them to respond ?? What happens then Chris, do you whip the **** out of them ? If you have to do all that, and your sport has three stick hits total, doesn't that sorta seem silly ?? I guess a high threshold for defence or what you would call a really confident dog NEEDS to be broken down some right ?? Gotta show him the scary side of those three stick hits. LOL

Quote: Stop with the false arguments. You and Martine are the only ones on this thread that are talking about it changing the dog's character.

Ok, what is it that keeps a dog from running, or showing stress instead of just kicking the crap out of the guy ? Is it a drive ? Is it REALLY training, or is it the dogs character? Also, go back and show me where I said that defense will change anything about a dogs character ?? I said it is NOT going to change shit.

Quote: Some are doing nicely, but unfortunately some are not doing so nice. And of those doing nice maybe some can do even better if all of their drives were utilized. 

OR, just maybe that dog and handler team just isn't as good as the other dog and handler team. ****, there are many many things that can happen from logistics to the differences in experience, and on and on. Could just be a bad day. As far as drives, they are not quantative, and get muddier the more you try and explain them, so it really boils down to character when the pressure is on.

Quote: Jeff a person has to be delusional of just plain stupid to believe that you can show a dog everything.

I am sure in Sch you can. Pretty limited. But better bust out the defense training to make the handler feel better.


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## Tim Martens

damn. came to party wayyyy late on this one. lots going on here...



AJ Johnson said:


> Im not going to allow myself to be reduced to your level of BS. I didnt start in sport training. I train dogs to protect my life for me this is not a game. Keep your comments to yourself. * My training is proved every day k9 officers come home to their families safe and sound*. Please try and defend that with some sport titles.
> 
> "It is better to be thought of as a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
> 
> Thank you for removing all doubt. BTW just because you have a fan club of fools does not change the fact that sheep follow in flocks.


can you please tell us what agencies YOU train. not an agency that you decoy for or hide in trees for, or what agency YOU worked a dog for? 

just curious



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I also know how easy it is to put a dog in avoidance by applying pressure to early, to often, or just oops. I trained Buko without accessories until I moved to Texas, and they asked me if he had seen them. I said no, he went right through them, as his character is good, AND I had conditioned him to have a strong entry.


while i generally agree with your stance in this thread, you do show some contradictions. you speak of applying pressure to early. this would tend to suggest that you feel applying pressure has some value. i think that is what most people really mean when they talk about training defense. whether it be pressure from the decoy or environmental (i have no crap idea what "accessories" are). 

i think what you are saying is that you don't have decoys apply pressure beyond what the dog would see in a MR3? again, getting back to your statement about applying it too early or often would suggest you advocate advancing a dog in steps through pressure. why? if the dog "has it" is there any need to apply pressure at all once you've determined the dog "has it"?

you say in another post that you believe it's the decoy's job to be the dog's bitch. another way of saying this is that you are building the dog's confidence. through many successful encounters with the decoy, the dog learns he is king shit stud and can overcome anything the decoy may offer him. those who advocate stressing or "pressuring" (to use your word) are also teaching the dog they can overcome whatever the decoy may offer them even when they feel "pressured".




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Did you see the dog run ? I have yet to see a dog in training that I thought would run not run. Mondio is only so hard as far as pressure. I don't need anything else, and I feel that a lot of people are training pretty weak dogs and so maybe they feel the need to do a lot of extra things like work defense. I let the dog work it out. If I see that the dog will run, then he can go to a nice pet home. Mondio is hard, but REALLY ?? REALLY ??


this is where this debate starts to break down a bit. you make no bones about only caring about training your dog for mondio. christopher seems to be talking about IPO and PP stuff (lame, but let's go with it). i agree with your training premise that you pretty much know what you're up against and train accordingly. if your interests lie outside of the sport world, i feel like you're doing your dog an injustice if all of his bitework is viewed as a game. sometimes it's not so fun in real life. now this doesn't definitively mean that "pressuring" or "working in defense" has any value. you may be right. it might be 100% character. either dog stays in or he runs. but what if it does have value?




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Again, I have no idea how to explain to you what I see in a dog. The dog goes A, B, C, D, E, F,. I go way past what a ring three would see. If I see insecurity, then the dog can go live a nice pet life somewhere. I would question the quality of either your dogs, your training, or your ability to read a dog if you still think that the dogs need special training. No character, they run. If you cannot see the character of the dog without training defense, then what can I say. I didn't start training dogs yesterday, and neither did you. I do know plenty of people that do not have the ability to read a dog.


all dogs have their breaking point. can that point be raised? i don't know. you've made statements that would suggest it can. you said it was important that the helper be the dogs bitch. again, this implies that the repeated act of being the dog's bitch will build his confidence. no need to build it if it can't be built right?




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No, this statement shows my disdain for that type of work. That is all. I feel that a decoy should be the dogs bitch. If he is the dogs bitch long enough, and the decoy steps up, the dog should have the character to knock that bitch back. I do not think like other people. I want the dog to prove to ME that he is worth a ****. If he cannot, then he can run off the field.


again, this implies that you either: conditioned, trained, built up (choose your term) the desired response. 



Martine Loots said:


> Fully agree here. This is the perfect summary of the topic.
> 
> Either a dog is serious, or he isn't and this has nothing to do with training. And as a handler you should be objective enough to "read" your dog and know which type of dog he is.
> 
> And indeed, for SPORTS I don't see any point to make a dog go into defense.
> Also with serious dogs, we always try to keep the training a game and very clean. Otherwise you get problems with control and outs, because a serious dog will keep going into fight modus if you provoke him.
> 
> *For a dog that has to work the streets there is a difference. I'd also confront him with as many situations as possible so he gets experience. But then again, it's ONLY to give the dog experience. NOT to form his character and make him more serious, because this has to be there genetically*.


as for the bolded, i agree that the dog needs experience and that experience doesn't form character, but i do believe it enhances it. you must also if you feel that experience is important.



Martine Loots said:


> I second that.
> I also admit that it's good to show the dog as much as possible to prepare him for this kind of situations, but there is no need for defense to do this.


very interesting. i think this cuts to what was talked about in the beginning of the thread. if a dog has very high prey drive and has strong character, the dog probably doesn't need much prep work, but the interesting thing is you don't know much about the dog's character until you put the screws to it. i'm sure we've all seen very high prey dogs that don't handle pressure well and no amount of defense work will bring the dog up. as soon as it stops being fun or isn't a game, the dog doesn't want to play. that dog can still be a decent sport dog because as jeff has said, he knows what the dog will face in a trial and he can be conditioned to it.

my dog has pretty high prey drive and that gets him through a lot of things (i don't think my dog has GREAT character). over the top prey drive can mask a lot of deficiencies in character fortunately. maybe you're right jeff. maybe it's all a game to make the handler feel better about the dog performing well in unusual situations. you can't beat the peace of mind that comes from a well trained dog and if that insecurity drives you to train harder and longer, then it can only be a good thing (provided your training is sound).

bah, lots of rambling here. that's what i get for coming late


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## Jeff Oehlsen

WOW Tims BACK ! ! ! ! I haven't gotten to talk to you in a long time.

Quote: you speak of applying pressure to early. 

Yes, like everyone else, I trained with defense as well as prey. I know the pitfalls. However, I am not advocating it's use. 

Quote: again, getting back to your statement about applying it too early or often would suggest you advocate advancing a dog in steps through pressure. why? if the dog "has it" is there any need to apply pressure at all once you've determined the dog "has it"?

You need to teach the exercises. If the dog has good character, you don't worry about working defense to make him stronger you just teach the exercise. That is what I am talking about. The bite stuff is the easy part. it is the "wait don't bite yet part" that is hard. Lets look at the exercises for three.

face attack over an obstacle
face attack with accessories
flee attack

Defense of handler
Search/escort
call off
Guard of object

I separated them so you can see the first 3 are charge the beach type exercises, and the other 4 are control exercises.

Now tell me, what good is going to do me in early training to spin the dog up with defense work ? The type of dog used is pretty much at that point as it is. I need the dog to have lower thresholds so that he is in drive. I don't want to have to spin a dog up so that he stays in drive, I want him to do so on his own. 


Quote: if your interests lie outside of the sport world, i feel like you're doing your dog an injustice if all of his bitework is viewed as a game. sometimes it's not so fun in real life. now this doesn't definitively mean that "pressuring" or "working in defense" has any value. you may be right. it might be 100% character. either dog stays in or he runs. but what if it does have value?

So what are you asking me here ?? If the dogs character is one where he is going to step up, what is it you are looking for then ? 

Asking me if it has value tells you what ? That you think there is a magical drive ? Like "fight drive" ?? You know, the one created by the magical mixing of prey and defense ? LOL

Quote: all dogs have their breaking point. can that point be raised? i don't know. you've made statements that would suggest it can. you said it was important that the helper be the dogs bitch. again, this implies that the repeated act of being the dog's bitch will build his confidence. no need to build it if it can't be built right?

I have trained dogs for PP that there is NO way that the dog was ever going to stand in the door....... oooops, he did. You see that dog training, and no way. NO way. However, he did. His character was good, he stood in the door and kept his mistress from getting raped. This is where I started thinking maybe what I thought I knew, was wrong.

Confidence is not character.


QUote: 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Oehlsen 
No, this statement shows my disdain for that type of work. That is all. I feel that a decoy should be the dogs bitch. If he is the dogs bitch long enough, and the decoy steps up, the dog should have the character to knock that bitch back. I do not think like other people. I want the dog to prove to ME that he is worth a ****. If he cannot, then he can run off the field.
again, this implies that you either: conditioned, trained, built up (choose your term) the desired response. 

Yes. What has this to do with not using defense ? 


Quote: i'm sure we've all seen very high prey dogs that don't handle pressure well and no amount of defense work will bring the dog up. as soon as it stops being fun or isn't a game, the dog doesn't want to play. that dog can still be a decent sport dog because as jeff has said, he knows what the dog will face in a trial and he can be conditioned to it.

No they can't. They run, or don't bite. The dog you are describing runs.


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## Gillian Schuler

I don't think I've got the be all and end all of a dog, but tested (helper without sleeve or stick in a corner - dog loose) after two good bite sessions at 9 months' old, he showed 2 months later he had a lot of aggression. Gave the decoy a good picture on which he could work on. A dog doesn't just become stronger, he becomes more experienced. The genes give him the input, that is all.

He said the dog was extremely confident in bitework and so he knew what he had to work with. As Tim said, the experience is important. The dog shows what he has, now he has to show what he can do. 

I must admit I had trouble later with the control but have solved it. Sometimes, the expression "the tougher the dog, the tougher the correction", doesn't always work.


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## Martine Loots

Tim Martens said:


> all dogs have their breaking point.* can that point be raised*? i don't know. you've made statements that would suggest it can. you said it was important that the helper be the dogs bitch. again, this implies that the repeated act of being the dog's bitch will build his confidence. no need to build it if it can't be built right?


Yes, but certainly not by using what is described here as "defense".
If the point has to be raised then this means there is a problem with the dog, otherwise it wouldn't be necessary. And that the dog needs a boost of confidence. But no way you will achieve this by using defense. On the contrary, it's going to break the dog's confidence.
If confidence has to be boosted this only will work if the dog feels GOOD at it, so the important thing is to LET HIM WIN. This is the only way to fix the problem and I know a lot of top scoring dogs that have been worked like this.

But I'm talking about SPORT here. Good training can fix a lot but it can't fix what is not there (character), so yes this type of dog can score high on trials but no way I'd trust my life to him in real life situations. It's not the type of dog to work the streets and be there if necessary. 




Tim Martens said:


> as for the bolded, i agree that the dog needs experience and that experience doesn't form character, but i do believe it enhances it. you must also if you feel that experience is important.


What I meant is that there is a big difference in training for sport and training for real life work.
We look for the strong character dogs, but this means that there is a lot of work in the beginning. Not to make them bite, because that isn't the problem, but to make them behave with strangers around. Make it clear to them that they should just do their job and leave everybody alone.

And yes, then they need the confirmation from their handler that they are ALLOWED to bite in a real life situation. That they won't be punished. That's the only reason I could think of to give them experience.

For instance, my 15 mths old dog would attack without hesitation, if something would happen in real life, because he isn't as conditioned to "behaving himself with other people" yet". But my 7yr old competition dog would need a confirmation that he is allowed to do it.

Difficult to explain but I hope you can get my point.



Tim Martens said:


> very interesting. i think this cuts to what was talked about in the beginning of the thread. if a dog has very high prey drive and has strong character, the dog probably doesn't need much prep work, *but the interesting thing is you don't know much about the dog's character until you put the screws to it*. i'm sure we've all seen very high prey dogs that don't handle pressure well and no amount of defense work will bring the dog up. as soon as it stops being fun or isn't a game, the dog doesn't want to play. that dog can still be a decent sport dog because as jeff has said, he knows what the dog will face in a trial and he can be conditioned to it.
> 
> my dog has pretty high prey drive and that gets him through a lot of things (i don't think my dog has GREAT character). over the top prey drive can mask a lot of deficiencies in character fortunately. maybe you're right jeff. maybe it's all a game to make the handler feel better about the dog performing well in unusual situations. you can't beat the peace of mind that comes from a well trained dog and if that insecurity drives you to train harder and longer, then it can only be a good thing (provided your training is sound).
> 
> bah, lots of rambling here. that's what i get for coming late


I bolded the important part here. If I have a dog then I perfectly know how he is exactly, how is character is. No need to have been in certain situations. As a handler you know your dog through and through and you know what he is capable of.
If he is capable then I know and he doesn't need the defence to confirm it. If he isn't then I know too and then it's up to me to decide if he can be a good SPORT dog or not. If he can, then there is work to be done, but certainly not by using defense because this will have the opposite effect.


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote MarleneLoots

But I'm talking about SPORT here. Good training can fix a lot but it can't fix what is not there (character), so yes this type of dog can score high on trials but no way I'd trust my life to him in real life situations. It's not the type of dog to work the streets and be there if necessary.

Unquote

I'd trust my GSD because he's territoriallly and possessively gened. I would'nt breed from him as there are certains things that I don't like about him, but, and this is the strange thing (?) not all well-balanced dogs are good protectors.

Sometimes, the lesser "stable" dogs make the better protectors. Because "fear enters more quickly???"


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## Tim Martens

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WOW Tims BACK ! ! ! ! I haven't gotten to talk to you in a long time.
> 
> Quote: you speak of applying pressure to early.
> 
> Yes, like everyone else, I trained with defense as well as prey. I know the pitfalls. However, I am not advocating it's use.


i've thought a lot about this topic since i posted last night. i think there is a distinction that needs to made during this conversation. pushing a dog to the point where he ellicits a fear response (showing teeth, hackles up, etc) and then continuing to work the dog in a manner that continues to ellicit this response is what i would call "training with defense" or "training in defense drive". i agree that if you have to use that type of training, chances are it's a shitter. 

i've worked with dogs that need this type of training. not too long before i got started with PSD's it was pretty much unheard of to send back a dog. our guy had his guy who had his guy in germany, we'd get the dogs and you got what you got. if you got a low drive shitter who turn away from you or just not show enough interest in the decoy, the decoy flanks him and let's the dog bite him after that. that sort of thing. again, a dog with enough drive (prey), obviously doesn't need that type of crap.

what i'm advocating and i think some others who are trying to justify training "in defense" are talking about is making the dog uncomfortable on the bite. as you have said, a decent decoy who knows how to read a dog is key. if you can do something either with posture, body language, eye contact, pain, environmental, etc that makes the dog uncomfortable (tail stops wagging, maybe the grip changes a bit for the worse, etc) and then be the dog's bitch after he works through it, i think there's value in that lesson. again, as our good friend david frost likes to point out, this is where our need to classify drives and terms fails us. you may call that conditioning. someone else might call it giving the dog experience. another might say it's just training.

working the dog past the point where discomfort becomes fear (defense) i don't feel has value with the right dog and only has the capability to set the dog back or screw it up, not make it stronger. with a shitter it can help and sometimes is necessary.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Now tell me, what good is going to do me in early training to spin the dog up with defense work ? The type of dog used is pretty much at that point as it is. I need the dog to have lower thresholds so that he is in drive. I don't want to have to spin a dog up so that he stays in drive, I want him to do so on his own.


have you ever personally seen a dog that had never been run in training, run on the trial field (in any sport)? i can't say i have, but i've heard of it happening. if you have seen it, what would have caused the dog to run? could it have been avoided with different training or was it just a matter of time?




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So what are you asking me here ?? If the dogs character is one where he is going to step up, what is it you are looking for then ?
> 
> Asking me if it has value tells you what ? That you think there is a magical drive ? Like "fight drive" ?? You know, the one created by the magical mixing of prey and defense ? LOL


"stepping up" can mean different things to different dogs. again, all dogs have their breaking point.

as for "fight drive", i think you've read me say enough times that i don't believe in such a thing. it's a misnomer. most of the time when people talk about a dog having a lot of fight drive, i would just call it a good dog that has been trained well.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have trained dogs for PP that there is NO way that the dog was ever going to stand in the door....... oooops, he did. You see that dog training, and no way. NO way. However, he did. His character was good, he stood in the door and kept his mistress from getting raped. This is where I started thinking maybe what I thought I knew, was wrong.


so what do we take from that? that you misread the dog?



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Confidence is not character.


so you're saying they aren't mutually inclusive. so it's possible to have a very confident dog with poor character? or a dog with no confidence that has great character?

if that is what you're saying, then you probably believe that experience breeds confidence and you should be open to the idea that exposing a dog to things that make it uncomfortable and working the dog through it has value.




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Jeff Oehlsen
> No, this statement shows my disdain for that type of work. That is all. I feel that a decoy should be the dogs bitch. If he is the dogs bitch long enough, and the decoy steps up, the dog should have the character to knock that bitch back. I do not think like other people. I want the dog to prove to ME that he is worth a ****. If he cannot, then he can run off the field.
> again, this implies that you either: conditioned, trained, built up (choose your term) the desired response.
> 
> Yes. What has this to do with not using defense ?


this topic has spawned additional ancillary discussions. one of which was that a dog is what it is and cannot be built up or trained to deal with stressors.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: i'm sure we've all seen very high prey dogs that don't handle pressure well and no amount of defense work will bring the dog up. as soon as it stops being fun or isn't a game, the dog doesn't want to play. that dog can still be a decent sport dog because as jeff has said, he knows what the dog will face in a trial and he can be conditioned to it.
> 
> No they can't. They run, or don't bite. The dog you are describing runs.


again, i would go back to the example of the dog that has never been run in training, getting run on the trial field. i'm sure you've seen the SchH dog get run simply from a FR decoy shaking the clatter stick. could that have been avoided if the dog were exposed to the clatter stick constantly since it was old enough to bite a rag like most puppies are raised to do FR do? if not, then why bother exposing the puppy to the clatter stick? it would either have enough character to overcome it or it wouldn't. 

what i'm saying is that a dog with GREAT genetics can probably overcome just about anything and that a dog with so so genetics can be conditioned to overcome many things presented to it in a trial. therefor it's not ALL about genetics.


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## Joby Becker

Great thread..great input...from different schools of thought...
thanks for posting guys...


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## Gillian Schuler

It's not all about genetics granted, but conditioning a dog with sowieso genetics to a trial will one day show it's flaws and hopefully (?) will not be bred from?


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> It's not all about genetics granted, but conditioning a dog with sowieso genetics to a trial will one day show it's flaws and hopefully (?) will not be bred from?


if someone conditions a dog...and trials it....with so so genetics...I think that the owner already would know that dog has only so so genetic expressions. that dog would not show his faults (in regards to character) in a trial unless he really sucked bad...after all he has been conditioned for it..

and then he will get bred


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## Gillian Schuler

Exactly!, exactly, exactly, oriiginal (text too short).


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
working the dog past the point where discomfort becomes fear (defense) i don't feel has value with the right dog and only has the capability to set the dog back or screw it up, not make it stronger. with a shitter it can help and sometimes is necessary.

I can see that. My question to many is this, do you train with defense because that is what you know? And the other would be, is propping up the dogs that way really helping the breed ? Not every dog is all that great, so you do what you have to to get the dog where you want to go. I understand that. I just feel that the NEED that many people have to see if their dog is brave and wonderful is sorta silly. Training through defense borders on the cult with some people. They NEED to see the dog come through, although how many times does the dog figure out the guy isn't crossing the line, and just shows his teeth in compliance to the training and what not.

Quote: so what do we take from that? that you misread the dog?

Yes. This was the mid 90's. I was all about drive and building and teeth and that dog made me re-think what I was looking at.

Quote: so you're saying they aren't mutually inclusive. so it's possible to have a very confident dog with poor character? or a dog with no confidence that has great character?

if that is what you're saying, then you probably believe that experience breeds confidence and you should be open to the idea that exposing a dog to things that make it uncomfortable and working the dog through it has value.

We work the dogs from pups. With a pup that is good, it should take no time at all to get him to understand how much fun biting is. So, this is a very small amount of time. I can see where people would think that defense should be part of it, but there are many many people that do not work defense, and the dog turns out fine. 

Quote: what i'm saying is that a dog with GREAT genetics can probably overcome just about anything and that a dog with so so genetics can be conditioned to overcome many things presented to it in a trial. therefor it's not ALL about genetics.

Yes, but lets raise the bar a little and just not work with dogs like that. Much more fun with better dogs.


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## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> If I have a dog then I perfectly know how he is exactly, how is character is.




This is the type of bull that novices say. No one knows there dog perfectly.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Seriously, that is all you have to say ?? They work the same lines of dogs for 20 years and this is your response ? I would say that they know the dogs. 

Kinda novice response as well there buddy.


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## Mike Scheiber

Joby Becker said:


> if someone conditions a dog...and trials it....with so so genetics...I think that the owner already would know that dog has only so so genetic expressions. that dog would not show his faults (in regards to character) in a trial unless he really sucked bad...after all he has been conditioned for it..
> 
> and then he will get bred


Do you think the majority of people that get a title on a dog have the intention of breeding the animal or because the dog gets titled it should breed worthy.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> This is the type of bull that novices say.* No one knows there dog perfectly.*


This "novice" does ;-)


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## maggie fraser

Martine Loots said:


> This "novice" does ;-)


 
I believe you Martine.


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## Bob Scott

Mike Scheiber said:


> Do you think the majority of people that get a title on a dog have the intention of breeding the animal or because the dog gets titled it should breed worthy.



Not always just the novice.
The show folks certainly do believe it.


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## Tim Martens

Martine Loots said:


> This "novice" does ;-)


i don't doubt that you do. again, the difference between PSD's and your dogs. i don't have the luxury of working with the dog from the time he is born. we get our dogs when they are already 2-4 years old. it takes us time to see what the dog has.


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## Joby Becker

Mike Scheiber said:


> Do you think the majority of people that get a title on a dog have the intention of breeding the animal or because the dog gets titled it should breed worthy.


I wouldn't say either is true for a majority, but some of both are present, and make a substantial minority impact on breeding trends...couple those with the confirmation breeders..that may be a majority for some breeds, who knows...


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## Gerry Grimwood

Mike Scheiber said:


> Do you think the majority of people that get a title on a dog have the intention of breeding the animal or because the dog gets titled it should breed worthy.


 
Maybe not you, but most of the GSD people do...don't believe me ? look at the GSD Database site, they are breeding anything with a heartbeat and a title and sometimes not even the latter.


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## Connie Sutherland

Gerry Grimwood said:


> ... look at the GSD Database site, they are breeding anything with a heartbeat and a title and sometimes not even the latter.


And sometimes not even the former!


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## Mike Scheiber

Joby Becker said:


> I wouldn't say either is true for a majority, but some of both are present, and make a substantial minority impact on breeding trends...couple those with the confirmation breeders..that may be a majority for some breeds, who knows...


The reason I ask is I don't see it much with in Schutzhund the sport specifically within the working lines German Shepherd.
I'll use our club as a example we have no one at this time breeding any club dogs, through the last 17 years we have had a couple of different members that have bred 2 or 3 well thought out working litters done the SV way with pink papered dogs.
Our club is pretty much the norm with in our North Central Region I would say maybe 1/3 to1/2 the clubs do have a senior member that breeds a litter every year or two and they may have connections in Germany or some ware and bring in a dog or 2 a year.
Bill Kulla is prolly the biggest breeder and importer in our region which is nice I like the same sort of dogs he tries to bring in and use in his breeding stock, if a dog dont have what it takes it dont stick around long there. Any way he'll be on my short list again of breeders/importers I'll be looking to for my next dog/pup.


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## Candy Eggert

Connie Sutherland said:


> And sometimes not even the former!


Viola c'est :wink:


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## Daryl Ehret

But if the _real emphasis_ is in the dogs, why bother with pink papers?


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## Mike Scheiber

Daryl Ehret said:


> But if the _real emphasis_ is in the dogs, why bother with pink papers?


If you expect to get my attention its going to tale more than Daryl the dog man telling me hes got what I'm looking for.


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## Daryl Ehret

Whatever. But, would you mind answering the question?


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## Mike Scheiber

Daryl Ehret said:


> Whatever. But, would you mind answering the question?


Its tough enough finding good dogs with proper papers much less checking out dogs that people have that are to lazy or what ever to put the effort into getting breed surveyed and titled. At least the breeders doing so appear to be serious about my breed and narrows down the search and makes for a baseline if its to much bother to do it the way it is supposed to be done. I'm not going to bother with them first, there are still people a hand full doing it the way its been done for over a 100 years with care and thought.


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## Daryl Ehret

But, if the litter has pink papers, that must mean the dogs were titled overseas first, then imported after being bred, right? That's just as lazy, and doesn't impart any special knowledge to the importer/"breeder".

We all know you can just as easily get "shitters" that are titled and imported, only they'll cost more because of the BS that's on paper. Just because that's the way it's been done, doesn't mean anything significant to me. _"Tradition is what you resort to when you don't have the time or the money to do it right." ~Kurt Herbert Alder_

The depth of your suspicion is a little amusing, but please keep in mind I haven't sold a pup in over two years, and wouldn't doubt it'll be another two years before I do. Besides, you're not my type of buyer.


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## Mike Scheiber

Daryl Ehret said:


> But, if the litter has pink papers, that must mean the dogs were titled overseas first, then imported after being bred, right? That's just as lazy, and doesn't impart any special knowledge to the importer/"breeder".
> 
> We all know you can just as easily get "shitters" that are titled and imported, only they'll cost more because of the BS that's on paper. Just because that's the way it's been done, doesn't mean anything significant to me. _"Tradition is what you resort to when you don't have the time or the money to do it right." ~Kurt Herbert Alder_
> 
> The depth of your suspicion is a little amusing, but please keep in mind I haven't sold a pup in over two years, and wouldn't doubt it'll be another two years before I do. Besides, you're not my type of buyer.


First I didn't mean to make a rip on you personally and it did sound that way and I apologize.
What I meant was people breeding dogs to there own standards, not that there haven't been some good dogs come about this way its just not the base line I'll start from.
Pink papered imports or dogs bred to the SV/USA standards here in the US is ware the search starts seeing the dogs show in trail or word of mouth is next then detective work and so on.
However if a exceptional adolescent dog happened to cross my path I surely wold never say never.


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## Daryl Ehret

Hey, thanks for the apology. I tend to look from the same baseline myself, but I've tried to keep an open mind the last couple years. I'm somewhat keeping an eye on the uncommon breeders (over here) that are pointedly attempting to produce a line through generations of their own breeding, rather than continually folding and expecting to get lucky on the next fresh hand they're dealt with imports.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

This is a subject for a completely new thread, but I feel to many still go outside the country for breeders here to do well.

A breeder like Daryl needs to have buyers that can give him feedback one way or the other. This does not happen enough. People get all PC and the breed suffers for it.

It is rather telling when a club that has been around for almost 20 years would rather go outside of the country, and not breed the dogs that they have.


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