# Training an Intact Male Around Females in Heat



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So my foster dog had been having her butt sniffed a lot last week and was being whinier than normal. I looked and no spay scar, of course. Sure enough, last weekend she was in heat. I haven't had an intact male in the same house as an intact in estrus female before (one or the other, but not both), so this was pretty new for me. Dolly got spayed on Monday, so sorry, no MalinRotts, but she's apparently still smelling like she's in season judging by the amount of adolescent whining and carrying on by Fawkes. :roll: Poor girl just had major abdominal surgery and the amorous teenager tries to jump her every time I let her out of the crate. ](*,) He also had no attention span today when working on the concertina down that we're trying for agility and other stuff, even though she was in the house in her crate (she's hardly been out of it since Monday) and we were outside. Other than the "obvious" solution, any ideas that you all with intact male/female households use?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Look at it as just another distraction. Maybe a bigger one then the dog is ready for but a distraction non the less.


----------



## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

indeed, just a "normal" distraction,
that is why from a young age on I just train with dogs in heat and also walk them together, the it isnt something "new" it is just normal to work also when nice smells are around...


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I experienced alot of distraction from my intact male on the field last training session, and he unexpectedly attempted to take off from me, before I was informed that the other female on the field was in heat. Great practice for distraction, sure. But if you bring your dog to train among others while it's in heat, do the polite thing, and inform those beforehand who it might affect.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

You can bathe her, that may help reduce the smell. You can also put a small dab of Vicks near his nose. But, I would just work him through it. We deal with this ever 6 months at my house, luckily all the girls cycle together otherwise I could concievably deal with this year round since I have 4 intact adult females right now. My boys get a little more restless and whiny at home, but when it's time to work they are ready to go. Even if I have one of the girls in a crate right next to them in the vehicle. 

I would work on making the rewards bigger/better then normal, to keep his focus on you. You may also need to add a few more corrections then normal. Might not be the best time to start training something completely new, work more on things he knows and can have easy success with, but definitely work him. It's a good habit to set now, when he's a little more mature he should be able to focus and work through any heat cycles if you start laying the groundwork for it now.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for the great responses, everyone. Unfortunately, I can't bathe her with the surgical incision quite yet, but I had been using those flushable wet wipes down in that general vicinity. She seems to be coming out of it due to the spay as he was about as happy to try to wrestle and play with her today as try to mount her, which she still can't do much of for a few more days. Dogs really are pretty amazing. A human female getting a hysterectomy would still be in the hospital for a day or two and she already wants to play just after 4 days.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

maren-she was spayed while in heat? i must be thinking something wrong here, but isn't a spay at this time a lot more risky due to increased blood supply to the uterus? i may be thinking of ppl that want "morning after" spays though.

Gracie's doing fine, BTW, losing some weight, actually canters 3-4 strides at a time on occasion. gotten a lot more black on her too; i think her food's agreeing with her. she is a plumb sweety, and she loves Caitlin most. which is ok w/me. i'll get Cait to get some pics up here for everyone: before and now. but her hips are shot, we're looking at how long she can maintain quality of life with them...anyway, another thread there.

ann


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

ann freier said:


> maren-she was spayed while in heat? i must be thinking something wrong here, but isn't a spay at this time a lot more risky due to increased blood supply to the uterus? i may be thinking of ppl that want "morning after" spays though.


Yeah, it's not normally something that should be routinely done except in these kinds of cases, as the uterus itself gets bigger and there's an increased blood supply to that area, so it tends to bleed a bit more. She had a small amount of bleeding under the skin and I put her on crate rest for 2 days after, but she's back to her old self now.

She was on the short list to get spayed anyways and we had some folks come in from out of town to meet her, so she needed to be done in case they wanted her. They ended up going with another female Rottie instead who was older and had already been used multiple times as a brood bitch :evil:, which was fine by me as she was going to be harder to adopt out than Dolly. Dolly might end up going to one of my vet school classmates and she's going to go meet her in a little bit, yay!



> Gracie's doing fine, BTW, losing some weight, actually canters 3-4 strides at a time on occasion. gotten a lot more black on her too; i think her food's agreeing with her. she is a plumb sweety, and she loves Caitlin most. which is ok w/me. i'll get Cait to get some pics up here for everyone: before and now. but her hips are shot, we're looking at how long she can maintain quality of life with them...anyway, another thread there.
> 
> ann


Good to hear! What supplements do you have her on? Feel free to start a new thread if you want. I'd load her up on fish oil, glucosamine/chondroitin (Synovi G3 chews is what I have Buck and Dolly on), vitamin C, you name it. I'd much rather have a couple of good quality years once she gets back into shape than continuing on the way she had been. It's almost criminal people let a dog get that overweight. How much did she weigh anyways? Hopefully that satisfies Caitlin's desire for a Malinois! :lol: And yeah, get some pictures of that big sweetie up here! :grin:


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Good to hear! What supplements do you have her on? Feel free to start a new thread if you want. I'd load her up on fish oil, glucosamine/chondroitin (Synovi G3 chews is what I have Buck and Dolly on), vitamin C, you name it. I'd much rather have a couple of good quality years once she gets back into shape than continuing on the way she had been. It's almost criminal people let a dog get that overweight. How much did she weigh anyways? Hopefully that satisfies Caitlin's desire for a Malinois! :lol: And yeah, get some pictures of that big sweetie up here! :grin:


_
"Feel free to start a new thread if you want."_

Please do! And I wanna see pics too. Big ditto on the supplements (plus E with the fish oil).


----------



## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

Welcome to my world. I have 4 intact bitches and two intact dogs, and all of them are house dogs. I have two separate fenced areas in my yard. When girls are in heat the boys are never allowed on the "girls" side of the yard to sniff where they have peed. And the girls all have their crates in my room on one side of the house, while the boys have their crates in a guestroom on the other end of the house. It's just a matter of keeping them completely separated for a time. At my training club bitches in heat go last during the day so they don't stink up the field for the boys.


----------



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

One thing you might consider before training around a female in heat. Training done while the dog is distracted may cause a sloppy are less than perfect maneuver. This can quickly form a bad habit that might come back to haunt you in later competitions.


----------



## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

> One thing you might consider before training around a female in heat. Training done while the dog is distracted may cause a sloppy are less than perfect maneuver. This can quickly form a bad habit that might come back to haunt you in later competitions.


Aren't you the one who was at the NW Working Dog's Expo in Oregon? I was there with my red doberman bitch. That was one LOOOONG day with so many dogs doing the ATTS thing and the CGC. I didn't know you were on this forum.


----------



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

That was a LOOOONG day and I am the one that was there. I do remember your Dobe I think, glad you survived the day, did you get your certification?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Butch Cappel said:


> Training done while the dog is distracted may cause a sloppy are less than perfect maneuver. This can quickly form a bad habit that might come back to haunt you in later competitions.


Are you advocating not training a dog around distractions?


----------



## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

> That was a LOOOONG day and I am the one that was there. I do remember your Dobe I think, glad you survived the day, did you get your certification?


Yes, she passed both of them. I was half asleep for them as we were almost dead last to go, but it was a fun day.


----------



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

No! But yes? 

I probably should have spelled that out a little better, as usual language can be a problem sometimes. 

There are three T's to a good dog, Training, Testing, and Trialing. 
Training is any set of exercises where the outcome can be controlled and obtained. You don't start training a dog to come by going to the dog park, turning it loose and screaming "Here Dog!" You can't control and therefore can't teach in that situation.

Once the "Training" portion is satisfactory then you begin the "Testing" by adding higher degrees of difficulty, distractions, etc. But the Training portion already has the dog reliable, in the trainers opinion, otherwise it is simply an exercise in frustration.

Congrats Julia, you can certainly say she *Earned* her titles that day.


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Thats what I got from that too Kadi.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

So many drives. Food drive you train food refusal, Prey drive you train not to chase the cat, sex drive you train not to pay her any attention. You go to trial, no problems. If training is done right you will not have those problems at trial. Obedience is control and control is obedience. Train with the girls in heat, your male will thank you for it, really. You'll be glad you did.


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_



There are three T's to a good dog, Training, Testing, and Trialing

Click to expand...

Hi Butch, quick question- if you were going to do "training" around a female in heat, well first-would you at all, or do you hope that wouldn't come up during a trial session...
OR if you did decide to train around a female in heat, would you wait until you have your dog perfected with other distractions first and then add this as another distraction?? thanks Mo 
_


----------



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Mo,
As most Kennel clubs and groups don't allow females in heat, or at least hold them to the last entry position on the field, I never really worried about it.

In my Security dog business I never ran across a thief that would go to the trouble to find a female, wait till she was in heat, and then try a break in.

So that never really was a priority like, say food refusals. 

If I were going to proof for it I think I would do it as you suggested. Get the easier distractions in, and then add the "heat" distraction.


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

> _
> As most Kennel clubs and groups don't allow females in heat, or at least hold them to the last entry position on the field, I never really worried about it
> In my Security dog business I never ran across a thief that would go to the trouble to find a female, wait till she was in heat, and then try a break in.
> 
> ...


_Thanks...You are right, most clubs and especially the sport venues I like to participate in, try to be considerate and run the females in heat last..
....if the thief did go to the trouble to bring along a female in heat, if she were anything like my Tora she would be a real B...h to be around...=;and I am sure the thief would attract a lot more 4 legged company than he would like anyway..so not a good idea..thanks again Mo_


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

We do not always make a female in heat go last. I for one have on purpose brought my male out onto the training field directly behind a bitch in heat, he worked with no problems. We have also brought other males out and again with no problems. A distraction is a distraction, you should train through it and for it.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

jay lyda said:


> We do not always make a female in heat go last. I for one have on purpose brought my male out onto the training field directly behind a bitch in heat, he worked with no problems. We have also brought other males out and again with no problems. A distraction is a distraction, you should train through it and for it.


I always wondered that...I mean, if the intact female is in a crate in the car in the parking lot like 100 feet away from the training area, I'm sure the males (and other females for that matter) can smell her just fine whether she's just been on the field or not.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

You are so right Maren. They can find her from miles away.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jay lyda said:


> We do not always make a female in heat go last. I for one have on purpose brought my male out onto the training field directly behind a bitch in heat, he worked with no problems. We have also brought other males out and again with no problems. A distraction is a distraction, you should train through it and for it.


We have a particular "potty" area at club that is away from the field. Those of us with advanced males will often go to this area when females are in heat just to "wind them up". Like I said originally, It's just another distraction.


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Exactly Bob. It seems that people who do sports should really train under this circumstance since there is no telling what order you may go in during a trial. What if its after a bitch in heat, if the dog is sheltered from this, then guess what. You can't blame the dog, so who should you blame??? Personally, in my mind it makes no difference if you are training for a sport or a PPD or a PSD, ITS A DISTRACTION!!! Like I said before, train through it and for it.


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

The Reason most trial venues make a in heat bitch go last is because it would be unfair for someone to go before and someone else go after. It would be an added distraction for some competitors and not others. NOT because most don't train in and around this all the time.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That is true Kyle, that is why it's done. Again though, the dog nose knows. If she is anywhere close, they know. When she has been on the ground and they can get a first hand smell that is what really makes it hard for the males after her. Train for it and through it and we won't go wrong.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When we moved out of an apartment and bought our first house in '69 I immediately got three pups. A Wimariner (sp) and two mutts. 
When the female came in heat I kept her in the garage. I'd get home from work and put the two males on a sit at the garage door and let her out to do her job. I was somewhat of a control freak in those days.  :grin: :grin: :roll: 
Now I'm just a nice old granpa! O


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

My boy is in a crate in the house/car or in the kennel next to my female all the time, heat or not. He deals with it just fine.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Just because a club/sport doesn't allow a female in heat to compete until the end, doesn't mean she wasn't all over that field the day before during the "open field". Or even the entire week before if there was a seminar or she's a member of the hosting club. Same thing for being out walking around to stretch, potty, etc in the areas around the field during the day of the trial. The boys are going to know she's there, doesn't matter what precautions are taken, and chances are good they are going to end up in areas where she's been.

This is also a "worst case" scenario, but I did have it happen once. We held an FR trial, and as usual the females in heat (2 of them) went at the very end. One was actually one of mine. We got done with our trial, and as soon as we got our jumps and stuff off the field, they started the obed/protection portion of a Schutzhund trial. So all the Sch dogs got to work on a field that had 2 females in heat all over the entire thing, about 30 minutes earlier. I've also trialed quite a few times at trials which were broken up into two different trials over the weekend, one on Sat and one on Sun. So Sat evening the females in heat go at the end of the first trial, and Sun morning the new trial starts.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Our club field is also at a public park so no telling what/who has been running around on it. Dog walkers all over the frickin place. Because we reserve the field on a yearly basis we have the right to restrict anyone going on there but only during training.


----------

