# Asr?



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

After seeing the pics and movies I am/ we are wondering:

What exactly is Asr? a mix of br/fr/mr and sch.?
Is the quality of a bite judged?
Is the spot of a bite judged?
Does the decoy know, on forehand, where the dog will bite?
Is catching/opening up of arms normal?
Is a lot of movement normal?

Dick& Selena


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Which movies did you see?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> What exactly is Asr? a mix of br/fr/mr and sch.?


ASR is supposed to be a sport designed to be "a true test of a protection dog". Only a few dogs have attained ASR3 and it's supposed to be a pretty brutal test, but I've never personally seen the ASR3 routine, just 1 and 2. I don't know exactly what the routines in BR/FR/MR etc involve, so I can't compare to these. There are obedience routines, the OB doesn't have to be as flashy with focused heeling as people expect from a Schutzhund or ring dog, as long as the obedience is correct. I don't remember if it is on leash or off leash, I think the entry level is on leash, not sure about ASR1. There is a long-down where the handler walks away and steps behind a blind for a determined length of time, I personally thing the long-down in the Sch BH is a better test since the dog has the additional distraction of another dog performing the OB routine with the handler at a distance. There is a defense of handler test, a search in the woods, a search in the building (both without handler present), a retrieve of a strange (I think usually metal) object, muzzle test, hidden sleeve (I think in a vehicle) test and a few other things I'm sure I've forgotten.



> Is the quality of a bite judged?


If I remember correctly, at the end of the routine when the judge scores the dog, I think the decoy critiques the dogs bite... I don't think it matters if a dog bites full, as long as the dog isn't biting only on the edge of the suit with canines. I don't know how scoring works with the quality of the bite.



> Is the spot of a bite judged?


It's at the trainers discretion where the dog bites, I know that some folks that participate in ASR come from a French Ring background so there are FR dogs who do leg bites and it isn't judged against them. They don't like to see fore-arm bites, I think they like chest/armpit/bicep bites. I remember someone telling me that the decoy isn't supposed to present a target in trial, n the decoy doesn't know where the dog will hit unless the decoy knows the dog already. Since ASR is a small sport compared to the bigger stuff, most people know eachother and eachothers dogs to a certain degree.



> Does the decoy know, on forehand, where the dog will bite?
> Is catching/opening up of arms normal?


Answered above.



> Is a lot of movement normal?


Someone like Jerry Lyda might be able to answer this better, but as far as I remember, there's not supposed to be much/any agitation from the decoy so I would assume that movement should be limited. But the pressure also steps up between Levels 1 to 2 and 3, so maybe ASR1 is easier to get with more leniency on the dog/help from the decoy than ASR 2... I haven't competed in ASR, but I've worked a few ASR dogs in a suit n watched the videos of the Entry Level/ASR1/ASR2 routines.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Which movies did you see?


The movies are in the video-section of this forum.

D&S


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

American Street Ring has it's own site which gives detailed information under Rules section of what is/is not expected of dog and decoy if anyone is interested: http://www.americanstreetring.org/index.html


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike, the dog has to do the down with distraction (while other team is performing ob) out of site of handler in sch I,II, & III not just BH. It always cracks me up when people cal ScH obedience flashy or robotic. It is enthusiastic not flashy, there is a difference. An enthusiastic dog is a willing partner. If you want robotic, well you need look no further than AKC obedience routines.


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

At the named website I can´t look further back than 2005. 

In the past (1999)in ASR competed also Dianne SanLorenzo with Athos (dutch shepherd). He was a Van Leeuwen´s Robbie-son and the Van Leeuwen´s Rocky half-brother. I´m curious if somebody saw them compete. They came from Brooksville, FL. Dianne owned Von Christal´s kennel.

Dick


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Susan, you make a valid point, also SchH1/2/3 the down during obedience is also under gunfire, not that it's a big deal anyway because I've heard the guns they use, doesn't sound anything like the 45 we use at the police dog certification :lol: But still, it's an additional distraction. Sch OB is nice, I like it, my girl has a beautiful focused heel, Cujo's learning too, took me a year to make him look up but damnit he's doing it now!

I know about Von Crystals kennel but don't know the dog. I tried to contact them for a puppy when I was looking for one but their email address no longer worked. I'll see if anyone knows them.


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

She has stopped breeding.
She was married to a dutch KNPV decoy, Rik Wolterbeek (indonesian roots), they are divorced now. 

I know that a lot of dutch shepherds in that area were bred by her and made good working policedogs. 
Because she started her breeding dutch shepherds out of our bloodline I´m curious if there is still something left of the Von Christel´s bloodline.

The link of Von Christel´s is still working eventhough (just found it again):

http://members.atlantic.net/~vcristel/index.htm

So you can see Von Christel´s Atos competed already in ASR in 1999, so I wondered why I couldn´t find anything about that period of ASR.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Was that gun fire? Sounded like someone clapping. :lol:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

ASR has gone thru alot of changes since 1999, along with a new website, so it's not surprising they don't put anything from that far back, I think it's only been the last 3 or 4 years that it's really taken off, but I could be wrong.

There is a dutch shepherd working for Orlando PD, I don't know the lines, but it's possible he is out of Von Crystals lines. Good dog, but not very clearheaded, and very hectic, he doesn't seem to have very good foundation from whoever trained him. He bit my funnybone thru a Demanet suit about 4 months ago n made my entire left arm go numb, I had to finish working the dog with my right arm after that :lol: Hurt for 2 or 3 days. Hard biting dog, a pretty big dog, very muscular, dark coloring, he'll knock your ass to the ground in a heartbeat. I believe he was sold to the department by Cameron Ford, it wouldn't surprise me if he bought the dog as a puppy from Von Crystals since Brooksville isn't too far from Orlando.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

There is a FR1 Dutch Shepherd in California that traces back to Robby. His name is Springfalls Rex, and his mother is an Atos daughter.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:hidden sleeve (I think in a vehicle) test

This is the dumbest most amatuer crap I can think of. Almost as horrible as the ATT test, and the morons that train for the weird stranger for 18 months as not to fail a temp test.............which is supposed to be how the dog acts w/out training. Not to mention, the tightening of the leash, the unlikely motion, the attack on the passenger side.

What the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHH is this supposed to be showing me about your dog? That you can condition a response?????? OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhh.

Sorry, I look at some of these sports and get confused. Like every single catch minus a few that I have seen have been on the back of the arm. (upperbody)


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> OTOH, there's the post above. Which I just cleverly compressed with
> some artful "returns."


I just edited some returns into Jeff's post.... did you do that too? :lol: Oh well as long as I don't have to scroll 10 pages to the right I don't care what happened.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

YES!!!


How funny....... great minds. :lol: :lol:


Not the first time doing that "compressing" .... :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Great minds? In the dog world? Not likely.    

Oh, and the dog can target anywhere, but the decoy is always sideways, and the forearm is slanted back away from the dog. I always target with just about this same posture, to the back of the arm. 

The back of the arm, for the newbs is a much easier bite than if you stood facing the dog and made him come into your chest or shoulder.

Also, the leg dog got jammed on the flee. This is easy to see, but not always easy to fix. Also, on the face attack with accessories, the arm is presented for the easy bite. Is this due to the low level?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Dick van Leeuwen said:


> At the named website I can´t look further back than 2005.
> 
> In the past (1999)in ASR competed also Dianne SanLorenzo with Athos (dutch shepherd). He was a Van Leeuwen´s Robbie-son and the Van Leeuwen´s Rocky half-brother. I´m curious if somebody saw them compete. They came from Brooksville, FL. Dianne owned Von Christal´s kennel.
> 
> Dick


*The trial that Athos competed in for ASR 2 was in Bunnel in February 2000 (for those that are trying to remember if they saw this dog or not) - I found his score on their old site: (sorry, there were no pictures)

1st Place-Dianne SanLorenzo and Atos(Dutch Shepherd) 323/400 Good *


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Yes Jeff. In the upper levels the decoy can block the dogs perferred target area. When I saw the leg dog pics I thought   , that was ugly. Thats just one of them times when you have a split second decision and I just turned the wrong way. Thats the first thing I thought when I saw it; man why didn't I spin the other way. But, Oh well, sh#% happens. You can't get it perfect every time!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Try accelerating. In Ring, on the flee, you go 3/4 till the dog is 10yards? or so, and then take off as hard as you can. This helps bigtime.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

The entire ASR organization went through a major overhaul a few years ago. Completely redid the rules and formed a new board of directors. This is why you can't find any of the old records. 

The obedience is very standard and does not have to be precise.

The first bite of the ASR entry level is a standing gunfire and has very little agitation before the dog actually commits to the bite. A dog that refuses to engage under this is disqualified.

In the entry levels, the quality of the bite is not judged. In ASR I - III, the bite quality is 20 points of the final score. 

A lot of the people in the sport are or were FR or NVBK people, the goal of ASR is supposed to be providing a more realistic setting (we can't do KNPV here, gotta come up with something else  )

The dog is allowed any of the normal targeting places just like any other sport, the decoy does not offer the dog a specific target. They don't block the body with the distractions, they generally open up and then pressure the dog with the distraction afterwards. 

Here are two videos that I took at our ASR trial last weekend. The first one is a Level I dog earning his second leg to achieve his title. Unfortunately this video does not include the building and woods searches (I couldn't be in there to set up the camera). 

The second one is a Level II dog earning the second leg of his title. This is every level II exercise except the carjacking (which wouldn't show on my video) and the woods search. I did get some of the building search, what you cannot see is that the dog was sent into a warehouse with five or six offices, at the end of that hallway was a restroom. The decoy hid behind the door of the restroom and the dog had to find him and apprehend him within three minutes. Being a level II dog, they also placed flowerpots, planters, cardboard boxes on the floor blocking the door so that the dog had to go through them to get to the decoy. Also, since six or seven level I dogs had gone through that building right before with the decoy hidden in a completely different location, the dog had to concentrate on the current scent of the decoy and not get distracted by previous events. 

I like the building and woods searches. They are a true test of the dog's courage. They do require teaching the dog air scenting, which can be easier said than done. The decoy goes deep into the woods or building, deeper depending on the level, and chances are, even a dog with the courage to apprehend the decoy will not find him if he does not learn to use his nose. 

These vids are really long and might take you a minute to watch  


Click here to watch Mo-and-Hugo-ASR-I

Click here to watch Keith-Tango-ASR-II-


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Thanks Amber! A lot clearer now.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Amber is working on the complete trial and all dogs, these will be put on DVD. You can contact her and she can get you one when she's finished.


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