# pushing vs tugging



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i hope this won't get too long (i'll try to keep it concise), but i'd like some input on this.

my 21 mo old green GSD (bad hips, so no SCH, the only sport avail to me here), when playing tug either to build drive or as a reward, will grip, use his weight backward to try to win, then come up and "push" when that doesn't work and will simply hold on when i pull back, to the point where i'm holding him off the ground (literally all the way off the ground, but not for long, as he's 87# and i haven't done much weight-work lately), or at least have him way up on his hind legs.

he doesn't chew, re-grip or fight, he simply grips and takes the weight off his forequarters as i pull on the tug. he's kinda "giving" with the pull (hope that makes sense!). sometimes, he will again throw his weight backward and start actively fighting to win the "prize" (at which point i let him have it w/praise).

when he doesn't actively fight me, just holds on like a frickin pit til he wears out my arms, i let him have it or "aus" him (he's good at "aus" and doesn't resent it). if i just let him have it, he comes right back at me, pushing me with it. if i "aus" him, he comes right back wanting some more.

so right now, he has a win-win-win situation. should i do something different with him? i don't want to ruin his grip (i know, who cares if he's not doing bitework, right? but he's got such a GOOD one), and i'm not so sure that pushing with the tug is such a bad thing either, re selena's training with her dogs.

thoughts? advice? do you need more information? please remember that i'm one of those newbies and be gentle with me =; also, that Brix will, at best, get what tracking/OB titles that are available to an unregisterable dog.

i'm really looking forward to your responses, as they will possibly help me with my next (registered AND with good hips :!: ) dog.


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Does your dog show any signs of pain in his hips? 

If he does not look like he is in pain then why not do Schutzhund. Many really nice dogs have displastic hips but have no issues doing the work. Get your dog into really good shape might be the best thing you could ever do for your dog. You say your dog is 87 lbs, sounds fat to me. A fat dog with displastic hips is not good. I would put your dog on a diet and a lot of exercise. Water is great for bad hips. Make those muscles around the hips strong and you might not ever have an issue.

I would only be concerned about hips if the dog is being breed or showing signs of pain.
Why are you worried about grip if you are not training for Schutzhund? If you never want to do Schutzhund then leave the helper work to the helpers at your club. Forget about the pulling or pushing.

Just my 2 cents.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

hi daniel, 
he is a very lean 87# (i'm anal about fat dogs). so that's not an issue.

and, while he's not exhibiting pain at the moment, the vet who (IS very good ortho vet) said he would be a good candidate for total hip replacement in BOTH hips but esp his R hip, suggested a less-strenuous sport in order to prolong his life. i'm all for that.

and lastly, i believe i mentioned the "why worry about it of he's not doing bitework" in my original post, and i think i had 2 good reasons for wondering (NOT worrying): one, he has such a sweet grip now, and two, for future reference.

i'll try to get some pics uploaded of him so everyone can admire how beautifully he's conditioned, but till then, do a "search", i'm thinking i posted some pics this spring...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My dog pulls until he feels the helper shift his weight, then immediately pushes into the helper. Good or bad, I have no idea. It's just the way he works the sleeve.
Schutzhund prefers the pull. Ringsport prefers the push. Maybe my dog is just confused!


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

ann freier said:


> hi daniel,
> he is a very lean 87# (i'm anal about fat dogs). so that's not an issue.
> 
> and, while he's not exhibiting pain at the moment, the vet who (IS very good ortho vet) said he would be a good candidate for total hip replacement in BOTH hips but esp his R hip, suggested a less-strenuous sport in order to prolong his life. i'm all for that.
> ...


I understand. Just putting in my two cents. I hope it works out well. I teach my dog when they pull they win. Pulling is good. I know some want to push. I train for Schutzhund and want the dog to pull the sleeve out of the pocket.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

not to discount either daniel or bob, but aren't there any more opinions out there???

they don't even have to be dog-specific opinions; like i said, i'd like some for future reference. if this has already been covered "ad nauseum", a link would be appreciated also...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ann freier said:


> not to discount either daniel or bob, but aren't there any more opinions out there???
> 
> they don't even have to be dog-specific opinions; like i said, i'd like some for future reference. if this has already been covered "ad nauseum", a link would be appreciated also...


Some dogs will shake the crap out of the sleeve/arm. For Schutzund that isn't a "calm, full grip". 
I caught a dog like this today at training. My presentation was off a bit and I caught him on the wrist. Thought the sumbitch broke it when he started shaking. If I was a rat I'd be deaderna door nail. He really enjoys the game.
I might add that Thunder, my almost 4 yr old dog, has "moderate" hips. He's extreamly athletic and has never shown a problem. I'm hoping that, at worst, he may just age a bit faster. I intend on working him as long as he's happy and comfortable.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Schutzhund prefers the pull. Ringsport prefers the push. Maybe my dog is just confused!


 LOL! Really? :grin: Is there a reason why both are doing it differently?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lindsay Janes said:


> LOL! Really? :grin: Is there a reason why both are doing it differently?


Schutzhund uses a sleeve and the judges are really anal about dogs having to bite full and "calm". A dog that pulls keeps his mouth closed and holds on. A pushing dog looks like he is chewing the sleeve because he is constantly trying to bite deeper into the sleeve, so you lose points for not having a full calm grip. Ideally, the dog bites and simply holds on, no pulling or pushing, but since dogs usually either push or pull, pulling is preferred for the look of the grip.

Ringsport is biting on a suit and they are less focused on how the dogs grip "looks". Since it is harder to grip a suit than it is to bite a sleeve, the emphasis is on getting the dog to bite deeper into the suit. For police work this would ensure that the dog is biting the persons limb rather than just biting clothing and tugging on it.

Most will argue that a dog that NATURALLY pushes vs. a dog that naturally pulls, is the more dominant dog, that is trying to dominate the decoy by driving into him. From a "guy being bit" perspective, it hurts ALOT more when the dog thrusts his face into you as hard as he can, vs a dog that bites the suit, doesn't actually get your arm or leg in his mouth, and starts pulling on the suit. Makes for easier decoy work, but in a real life situation where someone is wearing a thick winter jacket, it might be less effective if the dog doesn't manage to get a body part in his mouth.

Or something like that......


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Thanks for explaining! :grin:


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