# Interesting Video- Police dog FLIR Footage



## Jeremiah Johnson (Jul 1, 2010)

OK, I am really new to "working dogs" in general. So when I say working dogs it equates with protection work/police/mil/Sch/etc. Anyhow, in my mind it's "one shot, one kill"... handler releases a dog, and it will dang near rip the bad guys arm, or whatever, off once it gets to him.

With that in mind, I came across this video today- http://blutube.policeone.com/Clip-fs.aspx?key=5E1E72EAE53841E3&overrideC

I dunno, I guess I wanted to see the guy get chomped in half by the dog or something authoritative. Not the running around and ultimate Officer take downs that happened.

What are your thoughts on the video? Is this typically what happens in "real life" when a decoy isn't presenting the sleeve?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

That music makes this a bloopers tape for sure...

The dog may have bitten the guys clothes a couple times...

I would hope that most K9 units would not call that a stellar performance...


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

That video has made the rounds for quite a while now. It's not a great performance by a PSD. On a good note, he never gave up the chase. On a bad note, it seems to be a lot of play. Wouldn't be surprised if the dog had a background of early training where the sleeve was given to him at the completion of a bite. The transition was never made into taking the bite serious. I do have the advantage of being in another discussion about that video, wish I could remember where. ha ha. 

Not a stellar moment.

DFrost


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I know this handler personally. He wished this video never got out. He's very good, but this dog was quite young at the time and the product of lowest bid. He has a new partner, a Mal that is jam up.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

it looks like that could have been even more dangerous for that officer. when he took the first guy down the second guy could have come to help his buddy and it dont look like the dog would have done much about . thats what I saw.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I dont know about all k9 departments, but I work in corrections and have applied for k9 three times and not even got an interview. All three of the people that got the positions knew nothing about working dogs, one guy didnt know anything about dogs in general. Im not calling myself an expert but I am certainly more experienced than those guys. I guess when you hire enough people for a k9 department that dont know anything about dogs than you should expect those types of results. I am not talking about all police dogs and their handlers,but it does seem that alot of the ones I have seen, not that many, are nerve bags with a cocky handler that thinks he has the baddest dog in the world.


----------



## Brian McConnell (Feb 6, 2010)

in the Region Of york K-9 if you loose your dog , he dies or is baddly injured you are out of k-9 . they seem to only want new handlers so they can train them in their methods.
Seems wastful, It seems in my limited experiance that the second dog we train is sooo much smarter than the first and the third is absolutly brilliant.
Brian


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I have a Trooper on his 3rd dog. He didn't even test for sergeant. He was afraid he'd be promoted and removed from K9. I don't mind getting handlers that have no experience as long as they are a good solid Trooper. It's my job to teach them how to be a good K9 officer. There are lots of reasons you might end up with a dog like that on the street. They are not all, just because of bad training. 

PS, I start the grill in 45 minutes. Has nothing to do with this discussion, just thought I'd mention it.

DFrost


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I have a Trooper on his 3rd dog. He didn't even test for sergeant. He was afraid he'd be promoted and removed from K9. I don't mind getting handlers that have no experience as long as they are a good solid Trooper. It's my job to teach them how to be a good K9 officer. There are lots of reasons you might end up with a dog like that on the street. They are not all, just because of bad training.
> 
> PS, I start the grill in 45 minutes. Has nothing to do with this discussion, just thought I'd mention it.
> 
> DFrost


My k9 has assumed a tactical position flanking your grill, gonna bring me some foooooddd... Happy 4th...


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> I dont know about all k9 departments, but I work in corrections and have applied for k9 three times and not even got an interview. All three of the people that got the positions knew nothing about working dogs, one guy didnt know anything about dogs in general. Im not calling myself an expert but I am certainly more experienced than those guys. I guess when you hire enough people for a k9 department that dont know anything about dogs than you should expect those types of results. I am not talking about all police dogs and their handlers,but it does seem that alot of the ones I have seen, not that many, are nerve bags with a cocky handler that thinks he has the baddest dog in the world.


 Usually when you work for the S.O. it's all about who you know. That said..this video is NOT an example of this handlers' knowledge and skill. He is a very good trainer and his prior, and current dog is much better than the one in the video. 

As bad as this video looks, this dog didn't turn out too bad later on which is a testament to this handlers' abilities. Like I said before, he was quite young at the time.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

You are right it is all about who you know. I never realized it could be to such an extent till I got in with the department. I always thought it would come in handy to know someone if you needed a slight bump up. But it is insane the way they can completely dismiss people with much more qualifications(not just in k9). It is hard to watch people who have their daddies in a high position get into police departments when you know for a fact they will run at the first sign of trouble. Just thought Id chime in though I know it is not all k9 officers.:smile:


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Boy, am I ever glad there isn't any politics in my department. Every 4 or 8 years, depending on who wins the gubernatorial election, we know everyone from captain up will be replaced. LT and below are the only ones with civil service protection. In my over 20 years, I've yet to see a captain or above surive a new governor. Of course it has nothing to do with politics. I know that because I have the memo that says there will be no more politics in the Patrol.

DF, uhhhhhh Fred Schmidt


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Boy, am I ever glad there isn't any politics in my department. Every 4 or 8 years, depending on who wins the gubernatorial election, we know everyone from captain up will be replaced. LT and below are the only ones with civil service protection. In my over 20 years, I've yet to see a captain or above surive a new governor. Of course it has nothing to do with politics. I know that because I have the memo that says there will be no more politics in the Patrol.
> 
> DF, uhhhhhh Fred Schmidt


What did you grill =P~


----------



## Jeremiah Johnson (Jul 1, 2010)

"I know this handler personally. He wished this video never got out. He's very good, but this dog was quite young at the time and the product of lowest bid. He has a new partner, a Mal that is jam up. "

I figured something was up. Since the dog looks like he's goofing around in parts of the vid.


*Happy fourth, Gents*

Here's to a great nation where the office politics don't include lopping off the heads of dissenters!


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

This video has been around for quite some time. It's not an example of a good deployment. Can't say if it's bad training or a genetically unsuited dog. It could simply be that during his initial work he was "given the sleeve" as a reward for a good bite and they never transitioned to eliminate this. I've written about doing this in training before; I don't think it's a good idea and here you can see a potential result. If you do it, it must be trained away but in a stressful situation can come back. 

... Just reread some posts. With Howard's comment that the dog developed into a good working dog I'll have to go with training that left a hole (as opposed to genetic unsuitability). 



sam wilks said:


> I dont know about all k9 departments, but I work in corrections and have applied for k9 three times and not even got an interview. All three of the people that got the positions knew nothing about working dogs, one guy didnt know anything about dogs in general. Im not calling myself an expert but I am certainly more experienced than those guys.


As an aside, various people (and departments) have different ideas about this. Sometimes having prior knowledge about (in this case K−9's) is a bad thing. We once had an applicant for a K−9 position that had a dog that she'd worked in SchH for several years. She'd been to several seminars and trained with various trainers and decoys. She knew quite a bit about training. 

But when invited out to a training session, she spent most of the time telling us how the decoy should be "driving into the dog" how horrible it was to "teach the dog to bite anywhere" slamming us for wearing a suit on runaways (with dogs that had been taught to target anywhere they could get to) slamming us for doing ground work and generally running the work down. She failed to realize that there's a considerable difference between sport work and street work. She didn't get past the first level of testing. 

Sometimes having a "blank slate" to work with is an advantage. I couldn't even imagine the constant battle that every training session would become had she been chosen.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I would have said something as well. I certainly understand that they should be willing to bite a suspect anywhere to bring him down but why would you not want to teach your dogs targeting. I stopped training with a club for that reason. I realized how dangerous it was after I got my scalp chewed up and one of the other members had to go to the hospital for getting his finger bit off. I see the point you are making I just think that is irresponsible not to teach your dogs to target.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

The dogs were trained to target. Their initial target varied according to presentation depending on what the decoy was doing. If he was facing the dog as he approached, then the arm, an armpit, a bicep, a leg, etc. was acceptable. If fleeing, the armpit, upper back or a leg was acceptable. But they were also taught that if those places were not accessible, or if the fight had gone to the ground that a bite anyplace was acceptable. 

I don't want a dog not to bite because he can't get to a specific area that he's been trained to bite. If too much target work is done and the dog has not been taught that biting elsewhere is acceptable, then this can result.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> I dont know about all k9 departments, but I work in corrections and have applied for k9 three times and not even got an interview. All three of the people that got the positions knew nothing about working dogs, one guy didnt know anything about dogs in general. Im not calling myself an expert but I am certainly more experienced than those guys. I guess when you hire enough people for a k9 department that dont know anything about dogs than you should expect those types of results. I am not talking about all police dogs and their handlers,but it does seem that alot of the ones I have seen, not that many, are nerve bags with a cocky handler that thinks he has the baddest dog in the world.


When I was a trainer in our unit I found that the new handlers that had some degree of experiance training dogs(obediance , sport , protection) before coming into the k9 unit had a head start on how they handled themselves with the dogs and with timing on corrections . But when it came down to problem solving something with the dog and the technique wasn't something they agreed with based on their prior experiances it was hard to get them to fully commit to doing it right . You could almost see their internal debate going on in their heads and what their previous trainer taught them as opposed to what we were now trying to teach them . 

I personally would rather teach new handlers that just had experiance living with dogs and were comfortable around them . It took a little more time teaching them good timing and attitude around their K9 but they followed the program better and in the long run I made more progress with them .

I myself had some prior experiance with hunting dogs before I came into the unit . But I also had alot of experiance with the K9 guys having their dogs find alot of the badguys that had run from me . So I already knew how successful they were so it was easy for me to buy into what they wanted me to do in my initial training of my first K9 . 

I did have some ideas that I thought would help them but I kept it to myself , did what they told me then once I proved to them I was a capable handler I brought my ideas to them . It eventually led to me becoming a trainer years down the road when a spot opened up .

In PSD work you also have to remember it's not just about the training it's about the Police Officer you are on the streets . Does the Officer have good Officer safety skills , is he or she an active Officer on the street and 
have they proved good use of force reasoning in situations ?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I realized how dangerous it was after I got my scalp chewed up and one of the other members had to go to the hospital for getting his finger bit off. I see the point you are making I just think that is irresponsible not to teach your dogs to target.

Did you train with howard gaines ? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

God I don't want to do this with the typing wizard at all.

Quote: I don't want a dog not to bite because he can't get to a specific area that he's been trained to bite. If too much target work is done and the dog has not been taught that biting elsewhere is acceptable, then this can result.

I work on targeting all the time, but my dog will bite anywhere. I guess you were talking about Sch ? I really didn't like it after I went to Ricks place for a seminar, and he learned to hit them in the short ribs when they were trying to esquive him. That sucked, so he went on a line for a bit.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Not that Lou or I probably need affirmation in our dog training abilities, ha ha, but I made the same comment about the training in post number 3, where I stated: "Wouldn't be surprised if the dog had a background of early training where the sleeve was given to him at the completion of a bite. The transition was never made into taking the bite serious." There was a lot of play, evidenced by the grabbing of, tugging on, the guys shirt. I knew from previous discussions about this dog that it had developed into a decent street dog. 

I see this more often in dogs that recieved sport training before coming to PSD training. My personal opinion is, the discussion of prey/defense aside, the approach to bite work was more of a game. I want the dog to know he could get hurt. As for handlers, I allow handlers on their second or subsequent time through one of my classes more input. A rookie handler (regardless of his past experience) has very little say. They understand quickly it's my way or the highway. (there is a little pun there since we are a Highway Patrol).

DFrost


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> I myself had some prior experiance with hunting dogs before I came into the unit . But I also had alot of experiance with the K9 guys having their dogs find alot of the badguys that had run from me . So I already knew how successful they were so it was easy for me to buy into what they wanted me to do in my initial training of my first K9 .


 Same here. Bird dogs and hog dogs.




> In PSD work you also have to remember it's not just about the training it's about the Police Officer you are on the streets . Does the Officer have good Officer safety skills , is he or she an active Officer on the street and
> have they proved good use of force reasoning in situations ? Yesterday 08:03 PM


 This is so true!


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I realized how dangerous it was after I got my scalp chewed up and one of the other members had to go to the hospital for getting his finger bit off. I see the point you are making I just think that is irresponsible not to teach your dogs to target.
> 
> Did you train with howard gaines ? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> Jeff we have all done things were not proud of. But I have learned from my mistakes.\\/


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> I realized how dangerous it was after I got my scalp chewed up and one of the other members had to go to the hospital for getting his finger bit off. I see the point you are making I just think that is irresponsible not to teach your dogs to target.


Damn I misses this one, I see your a PPD guy for fuk sakes you got some video of this shit maybe some crotch bites to :lol:


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I only make this distinction because the thread was originally about a PSD. Two areas PSD's are not trained to target; the head and the crotch. While of course during the routine of training, dogs will target one area more than another, a good PSD is not specifically trained to target any specific area. The goal is to train to take anything that is available. During demos the question is often asked; "is the dog trained to bite the persons arm". I answer that question by stating: "No, the decoy is trained to put the arm in the dog's mouth. That is a significant difference."

Again, I say this because I'd really rather not have video of anyone doing "crotch" targeting in a PSD related thread.

DFrost


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

so what you are saying is that a psd should not target at all and the decoy should feed the dog all his bites?:-k


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> so what you are saying is that a psd should not target at all and the decoy should feed the dog all his bites?:-k


 That's not at all what he's saying. PSDs are taught to target....everything but the head and crotch. You can call it targeting, we call it bites of opportunity. A properly trained PSD will be given the opportunity to bite (and be praised) for everything but those two areas. If they are never allowed to bite there, they usually ignore those areas. Like anything else though, it happens from time to time.

I once had a burglar hiding inside a small pump house. The only thing accessible was his head. Fortunately I saw this before the dog actually bit him. Had he refused commands to come out then I would have used my backup officer to extract him while covering him with the dog. If the burglar made a deadly move to the backup then having the dog bite the head is justifiable.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

If you have a good dog then it wont be a problem. I think that a police dog should be the type of dog that wants to bite you for real. If thats the kind of police dog you have then even if it is taught targeting, when you take that away it will still bite you. No offense but this seems to be the way a lot of k9 officers I talk to think. (not all)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHD0PoOMdoM

This dog will bite you for real and if he did not have that arm he will take something else. I have been catching him with just a jacket for about a year and a half. I know I look like a dumbass trying to get his paws off me, they really hurt so just ignore that.


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

sam wilks said:


> so what you are saying is that a psd should not target at all and the decoy should feed the dog all his bites?:-k


 
The job of the decoy in the bitesuit is to teach the dog how to bite all of the places on the body we expect him to engage. .. the back, the chest, the legs. We will stay away from arm bites as much as possible. Once the dog is comfortable in all of these areas we will focus on the passive bite quite a bit. Then it’s time to put it all together in scenario training so the dog is exposed to what it is going to see on the street.

Just as an example… One of our dog’s last apprehensions was of a guy hiding 15’ in a small diameter drainage pipe. Not only did the dog find the guy during the area search… he engaged his ankle inside the dark pipe and pulled the guy out the 15’ to officers waiting outside. That was all due to 1) A properly selected dog … and…. 2) Training, training, training.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> If you have a good dog then it wont be a problem. I think that a police dog should be the type of dog that wants to bite you for real. If thats the kind of police dog you have then even if it is taught targeting, when you take that away it will still bite you. No offense but this seems to be the way a lot of k9 officers I talk to think. (not all)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHD0PoOMdoM
> 
> ...


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> PSD do target, they may have a preferred target or two even, but they should NOT "look" for these targets if not readily available, they should target elsewhere, wherever that may be.


Agreed.... I had a video of a (now) really good PSD who had a little too much arm training and not enough back and leg training. On the run away th decoy pulled his arms in so all that was available was a real nice "bite bar" high on the back.... bum bum... and legs. The dog shuts down and returns to the handler as soon as the arms disapear. The nice thing is that the vid shows how it was corrected as well as 4 or 5 back bites after the correction. If I can find it I will stick it up here.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Agreed.... I had a video of a (now) really good PSD who had a little too much arm training and not enough back and leg training. On the run away th decoy pulled his arms in so all that was available was a real nice "bite bar" high on the back.... bum bum... and legs. The dog shuts down and returns to the handler as soon as the arms disapear. The nice thing is that the vid shows how it was corrected as well as 4 or 5 back bites after the correction. If I can find it I will stick it up here.


Even with the "bite bar" on the back??? I like suits that bunch up like that, presents a nice picture...draws them off the shoulders/arms, keeps the back the focus...for the less "reckless" type dogs (or over-trained to target one area dogs) that may be looking for the arm/shoulder and may miss if not given to them, although those misses have value also.

post video please, if you can find it..was the "fix" done on a line?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> so what you are saying is that a psd should not target at all and the decoy should feed the dog all his bites?:-k


No, what I said was; "Two areas PSD's are not trained to target; the head and the crotch."


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Oh yea.... the way the decoy tuced his arms made a nice bunched up bitebar. This dog was origionally trained as a sport dog and had A LOT of sleeve work. His time on the suit was minimal at the time and although he had been trained on backbites while tied out he had never run into the situation where the arms got pulled away.

It was corrected by a decoy who knew how to work the dog in the suit and how to deaw him in towards center mass on the body. It was done with shorter sends and misses to build frustration untill the dog realized that he would miss if he targeted the arm, but a center mass hit would get him a bite 100% of the time. I want to say the dog was about 18 months old at the time.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> The job of the decoy in the bitesuit is to teach the dog how to bite all of the places on the body we expect him to engage. .. the back, the chest, the legs. We will stay away from arm bites as much as possible. Once the dog is comfortable in all of these areas we will focus on the passive bite quite a bit. Then it’s time to put it all together in scenario training so the dog is exposed to what it is going to see on the street.
> 
> Just as an example… One of our dog’s last apprehensions was of a guy hiding 15’ in a small diameter drainage pipe. Not only did the dog find the guy during the area search… he engaged his ankle inside the dark pipe and pulled the guy out the 15’ to officers waiting outside. That was all due to 1) A properly selected dog … and…. 2) Training, training, training.



What you post and what Howard said is exactly my way of thinking. I only made my post because of the reference to a "crotch" bite, and that this was originally about a PSD. I just thought it should be pointed out, professional PSD trainers just don't do that. 

DFrost

DFrost


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hey Sam,

I watched all 9 vids, I would NEVER work an actual decently trained PSD with the equipment/ clothing used, even if I knew his "preferred" target was the upper arm, I would *expec*t that I would be injured if I did so. 

I assume these are NOT police dogs, so not knocking what is being done in the vids.

But, if they were even just "good" PSD's...

Mike the decoy would most likely have gotten his ass/thigh or back chewed apart.

After the first miss minx might have taken the leg or lower abdomen.

And arras would most likely be *puncturing* that belgian arm with relish...


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> If you have a good dog then it wont be a problem. I think that a police dog should be the type of dog that wants to bite you for real. If thats the kind of police dog you have then even if it is taught targeting, when you take that away it will still bite you. No offense but this seems to be the way a lot of k9 officers I talk to think. (not all)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHD0PoOMdoM
> 
> This dog will bite you for real and if he did not have that arm he will take something else. I have been catching him with just a jacket for about a year and a half. I know I look like a dumbass trying to get his paws off me, they really hurt so just ignore that.





So what your saying is that we should train a PSD for targeting one area and then hope we picked a "good" dog when that target isn't available for real ?

I'd much rather train for what the dog will see on the streets and that's having to pick different areas to apprehend suspects . Good dogs can become confused to . If you train a dog to focus too much on one area and if that dog hits the streets and it's first apprehension doesn't offer what it's been taught to target it can become confused and that apprehesion may not go as well as it should . A good dog will probably work it out on it's own after failed attempts to try for it's area it's been trained to target but in doing so it also opens up opprotunities to escape for the suspect until the dog works it out . 

It is not good training to train targetting a specific area and then hoping it will on it's own go for something else if that target it has been trained to go for over and over again isn't available . 

Like everything else in PSD training you train preparing the dog for what it will see for real , be it evironmental , situational , or how the dog may have to apprehend(bite) a suspect . 

Sam , could you explain you reasoning for you beliefs and how you came about them ? Also how do you know that dog in your video will bite elsewhere if your target isn't available ?


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> sam wilks said:
> 
> 
> > If you have a good dog then it wont be a problem. I think that a police dog should be the type of dog that wants to bite you for real. If thats the kind of police dog you have then even if it is taught targeting, when you take that away it will still bite you. No offense but this seems to be the way a lot of k9 officers I talk to think. (not all)
> ...


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Hey Sam,
> 
> I watched all 9 vids, I would NEVER work an actual decently trained PSD with the equipment/ clothing used, even if I knew his "preferred" target was the upper arm, I would *expec*t that I would be injured if I did so.
> 
> ...


Joby, you just contradicted yourself. first of all mike the decoy is a brand new decoy that was just put on there so his wife could see it so you can take that out of the picture. how would minx have bitten me anywhere else, would she use her antigravity system. if you watch she goes flying past me when she comes back for me I have already presented her with another target, a bicep, go figure. If you ever want to come to delaware and catch arras Im sure his owner wont mind. when you do you can put on a jacket and tuck both your arms behind your back and show me that he wont engage anywhere else on your body. I wouldnt do it but since you are so confident that he is just a sport dog. the last post you made I agreed with you, then you came on with this rubbish. Isnt one of your dogs have arko for a father. Do you think arko would bite you if you took away the arms as a target.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

also joby, arras does puncture that belgian arm with relish. I just take it like a man. talk about training a dog for what he will be exposed to on the streets, we train with those light sleeves so they can feel the man underneath and not just be jacket biters.


----------



## 2170 (Jan 10, 2008)

Sam, From working Military Dogs to PSD dogs and being a MWD handler I will say that the dog you showed in the video would not be the dog I would choose as my partner. My dog now Gizmo had the decoy/helper given him a miss with the sleeve he had ojn, well then the arm "target" was just taken away, the helper would have lost chunks of meat out of his chest or legs. I posted videos on here of my dog doing some sleeve work and then suite work. When the suspect takes off je doesnt have a primary and secondary target he is going after, he is going after you and where ever he can get you.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> Joby Becker said:
> 
> 
> > Joby, I agree with what you said completely. what I was trying to show with that video is that dog will target the arm everytime, but if you take that away he will still engage what he can get. targeting is not allowing a dog to chose where he will bite the decoy every time you send him down field. that is called shitty training. what you said is correct but some of the people replying on here do not understand that. they think that you just send a dog down the field and where he bites is where he bites. he should always target a certain area unless it is took away. if it is took away then he should be taught a second target and so forth. if a dog wants to bite a suspect and they have been taught that then there should be no problems.
> ...


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> I would have said something as well. I certainly understand that they should be willing to bite a suspect anywhere to bring him down but why would you not want to teach your dogs targeting. I stopped training with a club for that reason. I realized how dangerous it was after I got my scalp chewed up and one of the other members had to go to the hospital for getting his finger bit off. I see the point you are making I just think that is irresponsible not to teach your dogs to target.



The K9 world can be a small one . I've got exclusive video of that poor sole shortly after leaving the hospital .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgwJJ3pXvOw


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Jim first of all I did not sasy you dont know how a psd works, though I have my doubts you do. all your successes? how many live bites have you had with dogs you have actually trained. not dogs you have bought, but dogs you have actually raised from puppies and trained. give me an example of some of my other posts, or was that just a general statement. I have gotten feedback an I am claiming you dont understand targeting because you dont. you dont even know the definition and you clearly demonstrate that with your posts. If you had me in one of your k9 classes as a new recruit you would tell me to shut up because you would be like most of the others and you would feel like your job was threatened by someone who actually knows what they are doing. I have no experience with PSD's and never claimed to. I have experience with dogs that will bite you for real but also target properly. Anytime you want to come and catch some dogs send me a pm. You wont need any equipment since you are so confident they wont bite you if they dont have the proper target. you can just take it away.=D>:-\"


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

YEAH JIM! Just what kinda expierience you talkin about?! :twisted: :twisted: 
When's that TV show comming back on?


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> Jim first of all I did not sasy you dont know how a psd works, though I have my doubts you do. all your successes? how many live bites have you had with dogs you have actually trained. not dogs you have bought, but dogs you have actually raised from puppies and trained. give me an example of some of my other posts, or was that just a general statement. I have gotten feedback an I am claiming you dont understand targeting because you dont. you dont even know the definition and you clearly demonstrate that with your posts. If you had me in one of your k9 classes as a new recruit you would tell me to shut up because you would be like most of the others and you would feel like your job was threatened by someone who actually knows what they are doing. I have no experience with PSD's and never claimed to. I have experience with dogs that will bite you for real but also target properly. Anytime you want to come and catch some dogs send me a pm. You wont need any equipment since you are so confident they wont bite you if they dont have the proper target. you can just take it away.=D>:-\"



Don't back out now . You stated we didn't understand . What you don't understand is the PSD handlers in this discussion have proven to me from many past discussions that they have a full understanding of the legal rulings we work under and know what they must show through their training . 

I've stated my experiance so many times in this forum that I'm tired of it . But I can assure you I have plenty of real experiance . 

But tell you what , I'll give you a detailed resume once you answer the questions I asked you first , along with your knowledge of the legal issues PSD Handlers must follow in regards to Use of Force and targetting . Don't take too long to respond it might make me think your looking for help in getting the answers .

I'll assure you I know these issues and will educate you if you don't . As for your dare , you still haven't explained why you think they will bite for real when I've asked you . 

Sam I tell you to shut up because your attitude would get in the way of actually learning and progressing . Believe me you're no threat .


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> Jim first of all I did not sasy you dont know how a psd works, though I have my doubts you do. all your successes? how many live bites have you had with dogs you have actually trained. not dogs you have bought, but dogs you have actually raised from puppies and trained. give me an example of some of my other posts, or was that just a general statement. I have gotten feedback an I am claiming you dont understand targeting because you dont. you dont even know the definition and you clearly demonstrate that with your posts. If you had me in one of your k9 classes as a new recruit you would tell me to shut up because you would be like most of the others and you would feel like your job was threatened by someone who actually knows what they are doing. I have no experience with PSD's and never claimed to. I have experience with dogs that will bite you for real but also target properly. Anytime you want to come and catch some dogs send me a pm. You wont need any equipment since you are so confident they wont bite you if they dont have the proper target. you can just take it away.=D>:-\"



Sam, I have a couple of questions of my own.You state; " I did not sasy you dont know how a psd works, though I have my doubts you do." 

My question would be are you a canine officer? How many PSD's have you trained that are operational with a law enforcement department. 

You also stated: "how many live bites have you had with dogs you have actually trained. not dogs you have bought, but dogs you have actually raised from puppies and trained. 

That statement indicates, to me, you actually have very little knowledge about how PSD's are trained. Very few departments raise puppies and then train them. They buy adult dogs. It also begs the question, how many live bite have you had with dogs you've trained. 

You stated: "I have experience with dogs that will bite you for real but also target properly."

Please tell us the stories about your experiences with dogs that will "bite you for real". We'd all like to hear them. 

I can assure you if I had you in class you would have been told, once, to keep quiet and learn. the second time you would have packed your bags and headed back to the road. I've trained a number of handlers and dogs you wouldn't even believe, so just suffice it to say, you wouldn't be the first officer I had removed from one of my classes. 

All this discussion started because I made a comment about targeting the crotch. No self-respecting police trainer, that wants to keep a job and career, would train a dog to such a thing. You got your panties in a wad because you've been shown where you are just wrong, out of your league and lacking in experience. You can bully and bluster all you want, but the signs are in everything you've posted. Including your posts and you video. This can be a great forum for learning. You can't learn however, when you challenge seasoned, experienced police canine trainers about areas of expertise where you are sadly ignorant. 

DFrost


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

David, I said that I don't have any experience with PSD's.
Are those the only good dogs. If someone trains a dog for anything but police work is that not a good dog. I know hoe police gets their dogs. They get them when they are older and already trained. Thats why I asked that. I have trained with some k9 people before that thought that all the foundation work we were doing with the young dogs was stupid. They wanted to do all the cool gi joe stuff like they did with there dogs. They had no clue there dogs and gone through similar work to get where they were. My experience with dogs that will bite me for real is a couple times a week we get together and train and they bite me. I have not been bit for real by a dog that has good targeting because they bite where they are supposed to.
So you would have sent me down the road huh. Your way or the highway? This whole conversation started by me saying that some of you did not teach your dogs proper targeting. You all felt threatened and so you took offense. Its funny, how I am the one who doesn't want to learn. All the people on here who cant teach your dogs target just come up with reason why there dogs are like that rather than just say I dont know how.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

On to you Jim, I didnt think I was backing out. I thought I was getting myself in deeper. Like everyone else on this post, you have generalized my statement. I never said you flat out dont understand. I just said you dont understand about targeting and that I am able to make that assumption by what I have read from your comments about it. I am not that ignorant to dismiss someones knowledge or ability to train a dog without having met them and trained with them._ Jim first of all I did not sasy you dont know how a psd works, though I have my doubts you do._ that statement was a bit harsh As far as legalities, I am sure you know a lot more about them than I do. I do think that if a dog bit a suspect in several different areas the judge might frown on that, they might no though I dont know. Oh and I wasnt taking too long I was working. As for what makes me think the dogs will bite for real, they are taught to focus on the man. Take that for what its worth to you, probably not much, but I am not bull shitting you when I invited you to come and train. Your welcome anytime.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

_Sam, From working Military Dogs to PSD dogs and being a MWD handler I will say that the dog you showed in the video would not be the dog I would choose as my partner._
Eric, I can respect that its your choice. If you give a dog a miss he is already in the air, if he cannot reach the helper he cannot take chunks out of him. The older dogs in the video will take chunks out of you if they can get to you. They are rarely ever provided a miss so when it happens it is a surprise to them. 
The entire point I am trying to make is that you can have a dog that targets clean that will also engage the helper when the targets are taken away. No one seems to understand this. To me its a simple statement.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Joby, I looked at your vids. I thought they were nice. I dont understand why you disagreed with me. It looks like your dog has good targeting.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> On to you Jim, I didnt think I was backing out. I thought I was getting myself in deeper. Like everyone else on this post, you have generalized my statement. I never said you flat out dont understand. I just said you dont understand about targeting and that I am able to make that assumption by what I have read from your comments about it. I am not that ignorant to dismiss someones knowledge or ability to train a dog without having met them and trained with them._ Jim first of all I did not sasy you dont know how a psd works, though I have my doubts you do._ that statement was a bit harsh As far as legalities, I am sure you know a lot more about them than I do. I do think that if a dog bit a suspect in several different areas the judge might frown on that, they might no though I dont know. Oh and I wasnt taking too long I was working. As for what makes me think the dogs will bite for real, they are taught to focus on the man. Take that for what its worth to you, probably not much, but I am not bull shitting you when I invited you to come and train. Your welcome anytime.


On to me . You have been ignorant and dismissed what experianced PSD Handlers here have told you . 

Since you answered my questions I'll answer yours . Been A K9 Handler since 97' . Handled 2 Patrol K9s , both crossed trained in Narcotics and both picked out of a K9 unit of 21 to be 1 of 4 K9's on the SWAT team . I've been a Police Officer since 91 " .

With my first K9 I had over 70 K9 apprehensions (bites) with many more finds of suspects not needing to be bit . With my 2nd K9 over 30 apprehensions and many more finds . 

I have also been a member of the 2000 USPCA National Champion team , member of other 2nd and 3rd place teams as well . I've won awards for our K9 work on the street with both dogs . 

I was a trainer in my unit for several years with plans for me to someday take over the unit . I trained 12 week Patrol courses involving 12-16 PSD candidates for our department and departments around the 5 state area . I have also cross trained Bomb and Narc detection with many of those K9s in an additional 4 week training class . These dogs are 99% green dogs with some titled dogs (KNPV and Schtz. mainly) all around a year old . They used to be older but getting older dogs is getting harder all the time . We do all of the foundational training on the dogs . I have no experiance with training puppies for patrol work .

MANY of those K9s I have assisted in training have gone on to apprehend suspects on the street asd well as find drugs , evidence and win awards for their good work .

It is obvious now through you own admission that you know very little about PSD's yet you want to come on here and tell us we are wrong and don't know about targetting . I can tell you those involved so far know way more about it then you do . Your statement about a dog bitting all over is very telling . 

As for court cases one of the biggest for Use of Force with a K9 is Graham v Connor and as to targetting Robinette v Barnes . There are many more PSD Handlers need to be aware of also . 

As for your dare I will pass I might get BIT . The question was more of a test to see if you were another one of those guys that just KNOWS a dog will bite for real when they haven't even been tested for real . You failed miserably . 

I suggest you chill and start researching PSDs . If they are as bad as you say around you then start looking harder . There are good ones out there and the handlers you have been talking to are some of them . THe little knowledge you have so far isn't helping you .


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I teach dogs to target....the whole body (minus head and crotch). I want EVERY peice of human available for immediate bite (minus H&C area) to come second nature. I dont want my dog to look for an arm first, then a leg, then a back etc etc etc. I want him to take the first peice he can get to.

Some dogs have a favorite place to bite, that's natural. But, barring that, I want them to bite whats available. I don't want a PSD to find a hidden suspect and first look for the arm, leg, shoulder etc. in whatever order...I want him to bite the SOB without calculating his move. I want it to be fluid and second nature. In our world people's lives depend on it; fractions of a second count.

I teach dogs to target so that they are comfortable biting in previously forbidden areas. Once that is done, I go to the muzzle on unprotected men. It's called training for a reason. At some point all the work comes together for the finished product.It becomes second nature for the dog to bite whatever without some calculating protocol to hinder them when seconds count.

If you esquive? a PSD enough, he will learn to target center mass on his own. He's getting the job done as efficiently as he knows how. That's the kind of PSD I like to see working...one that gets the job done as efficiently and quickly as he can.

As far as the police molding adult dogs to their needs....:roll:


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Sam says: "David, I said that I don't have any experience with PSD's.
Are those the only good dogs."

Nobody said they were the only good dogs. The thread was about PSD's. 

Sam says: "My experience with dogs that will bite me for real is a couple times a week we get together and train and they bite me. I have not been bit for real by a dog that has good targeting because they bite where they are supposed to."

Makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever. Either you spend a lot of time in the ER getting fixed up for a dog bite or your dogs don 't break skin. How else do you know the bite for real.

Of course then you say you have not been bitten for real because of good targeting. You really have to explain that to me. Are you suggesting we train our police dogs to do good target training so they won't bite. Again, that just makes no sense.

Sam says: "I have trained with some k9 people before that thought that all the foundation work we were doing with the young dogs was stupid. They wanted to do all the cool gi joe stuff like they did with there dogs."

Sam I really think the most experience you have with "cool gi joe stuff" is a result of action figures. I don't know of any canine trainer worth their salt, PSD, PPD, various sports that don't believe in doing proper foundation work. While the foundation itself may vary to some degree, we all do it. 

Sam says: "So you would have sent me down the road huh. Your way or the highway? This whole conversation started by me saying that some of you did not teach your dogs proper targeting."

Actually, the discussion started because I pointed out PSD's do not target the crotch. I don't think you knew that. I wanted to makes sure, since the thread started about PSD's that there was an understanding that was not an intentional target area. As far as sending you down the highway, oh yes sir, without question. You wouldn't have lasted as long as this discussion has. 

I can understand you being defensive. You found yourself in a very uncomfortable situation. You've shown your inexperience in an area where there just happened to be several people with not only extensive experience, but recent experience with actual bites. Not the ones like you experience in training a couple times a week. The discussion might go on a few more posts, but don't you see you've already been dismissed as, to put it politely, inexperienced in the PSD, and my guess, even the PPD field of dog training.

DFrost


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Jim, I'm ignorant because I don't agree with you? You are answering my questions, when did I ask for your resume. I didn't ask for it cause I really don't care. I keep telling you I don't know anything about PSD because I am not a k9 officer. I guess you never attend any seminars by people who have never been on a k9 unit. You could've explained those court cases, but please don't, your post are becoming excruciatingly long. A dog biting all over is very telling, When I first started, I trained with people with the same opinion about targeting as you. I got bit in the head and had my scalp tore open. I don't train with them anymore. As for my "dare", damn right you will get bit. I am just going to say that I know there are good PSD trainers and handlers out there and I never even said you were one of them just that you don't teach your dogs targeting. 

Howard, I'm not saying that in real life it is bad for the dog to bite whatever he can get to bring the man down, fluid and second nature comes with that targeting. targeting does not hinder them. Giving the dog a miss is not something we do a lot for that reason.

David, I already explained why they will bite for real. How do you find out if a dog will bite for real, we are not k9 officers so that is out of the question. I would prefer not to use my body to test it out. When I say I have not been bitten because of good target training thats what I mean. We don't have accidental bites because we don't allow the dog to bit us where they please. Again I am trying to tell you that just because they target does not mean they wont bite you somewhere else if it is taken from them. When I said k9 people, perhaps I should have specified handlers. Although I think the trainers are the ones that teach the handlers. So where does there mind set come from? I knew PSD don't target the crotch, after talking to some of you I realized they don't target anything.=D> I'm not really defensive, I haven't been desperately posting my resume on here. And I'm plenty comfortable. You keep coming back to the fact that I don't have experience in the PSD world and I keep agreeing with you. PSD training is not the best training in the world. You will disagree that you are saying that on your next post and that's fine, but your statements say otherwise. So, all of you have gotten bit for real? Not like the bites I get in training. The ones I get in trainig don't hurt right. I have been dismissed:-(that's alright, thanks for putting it so politely.

To all of you, these posts are getting rather long. And, since you have all dismissed me, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You are all welcome to come train anytime, send me a pm. I dont hate you:lol:
I will even let you all have the last word.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> I certainly understand that they should be willing to bite a suspect anywhere to bring him down but why would you not want to teach your dogs targeting. I stopped training with a club for that reason. I realized how dangerous it was after I got my scalp chewed up and one of the other members had to go to the hospital for getting his finger bit off. I see the point you are making I just think that is irresponsible not to teach your dogs to target.


 From an earlier post, Sam.

Was trying to figure out the confusion here. You got bit because these dogs weren't taught to target? What kind of club? What kind of training? Why weren't you wearing head protection? Did the handlers not warn you? If not, that's on them and a learning example for you.

I previously stated I teach dogs to target. Mainly it's to help them overcome previous restrictive sport training from whence the dogs usually come from. Being as the police don't have the luxury of specific targeting during real apprehensions, it's up to the dog to pick the spot. If a dog ACCIDENTALLY bites a perp in the head, is it deadly force? Not neccessarily. We canot predict a bad guys actions, or his choice of hiding spots (like my earlier experience I posted).

So....we teach targeting, then move on. Further teachings let the dog know it's OK to bite anywhere exposed. Have we negated the targeting training? Or have we evolved a more efficient dog for dealing with real criminals? I'm having a real hard time understanding what your beef is.

I will agree that a dog that moves from place to place on the suit needs some work unless you are ground fighting and the dog learns to mitigate itself to get the upper hand. 

Howard


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

no beef howard. you just agreed with what I have been saying the whole time. you teach targeting and if that dog loses that target then he still bites.

And to you Jim, I didn't realize that k9 cops was the show everyone referred to. real nice when that officer had to take down the suspect that ran past his k9 twice. does that count as two.


Ok now I m done sorry.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Sam says; "You are answering my questions, when did I ask for your resume. I didn't ask for it cause I really don't care."

Actually Sam, you did ask for his resume, or at least part of it, when you said: "all your successes? how many live bites have you had with dogs you have actually trained. not dogs you have bought, but dogs you have actually raised from puppies and trained."

Sam says: "I already explained why they will bite for real. How do you find out if a dog will bite for real, we are not k9 officers so that is out of the question. I would prefer not to use my body to test it out. "

So Sam, explain to me how you know the dog will bite, for real, without ever having "tested" it in some manner outside of a training environment. If you read some of the PSD threads you'll see where seasoned PSD trainers and K9 officers readily admit that we don't know exactly how a dog will act until "show time". You can target train all day long, but until you actually have a dog engage for real, we only hope, based on years of experience and training, we have the right answer. 

At any rate, you've not explained how you know the dog will bite "for real" you've only explained they are target trained so they are totally predictable during training so no one gets hurt. 

Sam says: "PSD training is not the best training in the world. You will disagree that you are saying that on your next post and that's fine, but your statements say otherwise."

You're correct, I do disagree. I don't have enough experience in sport, or PPD to make a judgement. I don't even agree with PSD trainers that teach bark and hold, another discussion I know. They just don't want to recognize the fact that I'm right. ha ha. I also agree with you that you don't know anything about PSD training.

Sam says: "So, all of you have gotten bit for real? Not like the bites I get in training." 

I can't speak for the other. However, if I was a betting man, my money would be on at least 90% of them, that have been a handler/trainer for at least 5 years have been bitten. Me personally, more than once. On one occasion it broke my arm in 2 places and I've had 3 surgeries since then. Yes, it hurt. No, I'll never admit to crying. Yes I was scared. I have no interest in training with you, but thanks for the offer. I'm known to be an egotistical SOB I know that and in fact, I agree. While there are some trainers on this forum that could probably teach me something, you sir are not one of them.

DFrost


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

OK Sam. We agree (or I agree with you, no matter). What's your issue with getting bit in the head then? When you mess with biting dogs, it's only a matter of time before you get bit.

You still didn't answer my questions. Were these dogs PSDs, sport, PPDs what? Were you informed by the offending dogs' handler how the dog works? Why weren't you wearing head protection? How is it you got bit on the head anyway? Just trying to understand the dynamic involved other than being told the dogs aren't taught to target.

Howard


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> Jim, I'm ignorant because I don't agree with you? You are answering my questions, when did I ask for your resume. I didn't ask for it cause I really don't care. I keep telling you I don't know anything about PSD because I am not a k9 officer. I guess you never attend any seminars by people who have never been on a k9 unit. You could've explained those court cases, but please don't, your post are becoming excruciatingly long. A dog biting all over is very telling, When I first started, I trained with people with the same opinion about targeting as you. I got bit in the head and had my scalp tore open. I don't train with them anymore. As for my "dare", damn right you will get bit. I am just going to say that I know there are good PSD trainers and handlers out there and I never even said you were one of them just that you don't teach your dogs targeting.
> 
> 
> To all of you, these posts are getting rather long. And, since you have all dismissed me, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You are all welcome to come train anytime, send me a pm. I dont hate you:lol:
> I will even let you all have the last word.



You are very inconsistant aren't you ? You ask about me and I tell you then state you didn't ask . You complain about the length of my responses then complain that I should have explained those cases to you when you could easily have looked them up yourself . You state you will let others have the last word then respond back . 

You are ignorant because you don't know anything about PSDs yet want to come on here and tell those who do that we don't know about targeting . You are ignorant because you state you know a dog will bite for real when the dog has never even been put in that position . You are ignorant because you say we should train a PSD to target a specific area and have other specific areas trained if that isn't available then add that if it's a good dog it will just take something if those aren't available without training for it . You are ignorant because you post about how experianced you are then show videos of yourself showing otherwise .

I have attended many seminars involving PSD trainers and Sport and learned new things at all of them .

Explain to me what my opininion on targeting is .

What you didn't get was there are legal expectations on how and where a PSD can bite and how they bite . Liabilty and worse new case law severely limiting the use of PSDs nationwide can be the result of a bad bite or bad training . We know how important targeting is , it's just not the type of targeting you think should be used and not the Russian Roulette , where's the dog going to bite or dog bites all over type of behavior you describe . 

I know reading lots of words isn't your strong suit but if you read those 2 cases I gave you in their entirety things may become clearer to you .


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> no beef howard. you just agreed with what I have been saying the whole time. you teach targeting and if that dog loses that target then he still bites.
> 
> And to you Jim, I didn't realize that k9 cops was the show everyone referred to. real nice when that officer had to take down the suspect that ran past his k9 twice. does that count as two.
> 
> ...


Who is everyone ? I saw 1 person mention it .

We certainly did get criticism from others about that show . From how our K9s tracked and found suspects , how our K9s searched and found drugs , how they searched a found guns to how all of our K9s bit . 

It was expected since the only thing 2 trainers can agree on is that the other is wrong . It does irritate me but in the long run what matters to me most is that the Officers and Citizens have faith in us because of all the good things we accomplish by putting criminals away . They still do and have come to our rescue many times when budgets have threatened to cut the K9 unit numbers . 

As for the dog you mentioned I've discussed him many times on this forum in threads about the show . I didn't blow sunshine up anyones butt about it's biting capabilities . Unlike like you who has made statements about the certainty of an untested dog you train with being able to bite for real .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So wilks knows **** all, but wants to argue as if he does know what he is talking about. Why does this always put these guys into the IDIOT catagory ?

Jim, you are so sassy. Putting all that information out there to answer his question, and the the little ****bag has the balls to say that your answer is too long ??

Just write slower, he doesn't read real fast.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> Joby, you just contradicted yourself. first of all mike the decoy is a brand new decoy that was just put on there so his wife could see it so you can take that out of the picture. how would minx have bitten me anywhere else, would she use her antigravity system. if you watch she goes flying past me when she comes back for me I have already presented her with another target, a bicep, go figure. If you ever want to come to delaware and catch arras Im sure his owner wont mind. when you do you can put on a jacket and tuck both your arms behind your back and show me that he wont engage anywhere else on your body. I wouldnt do it but since you are so confident that he is just a sport dog. the last post you made I agreed with you, then you came on with this rubbish. Isnt one of your dogs have arko for a father. Do you think arko would bite you if you took away the arms as a target.


been a long time since I been on here....
I read the updates to the thread, I don't think we agree. And don't see where I contradicted myself. I do believe a properly trained PSD should not be discriminating on where he should bite. I don't think he should look for one target and then another if that one is taken away..."almost" all major areas of the body ideally become ONE big target. 

sam...

This post is kinda crazy to me....

ARE THESE DOGS WORKING PATROL DOGS? I think not...I did not say they were sport dogs either, I said I ASSUME the are NOT working Patrol dogs. 

What I was saying is that if they were actual working police k9's, I would NEVER wear the clothing, and equipment in training that is being worn. If I did, I would expect to get bit...

Mike whether new or not would still have a great chance of getting his ass/thigh or back chewed apart.

Minx would not have to use her antigravity, she COULD easily have decided to take you by your leg or gut after the first miss, on the second attempt to bite.

And like I said Arras would most likely be PUNCTURING that belgian arm. You take it like a man? That is a bold statement. It doesn't appear that you take the dogs paws on you like a man, the pain is effecting the work to a significant degree. You are working against the dog in a counterproductive way in m opinion. I said "puncturing" with "relish", not bruising you up. There is a big difference. Next time he punctures that sleeve, and you take it like a man, strip the sleeve off and show the punctures....that I would like to see...

Again I said nothing about the quality of the dogs, or the training, just stated that I do not think they are working PSD. SO are they?

I would hope that arras would bite the body of the jacket if the arms were tucked, especially if you are saying he is a PSD. That means nothing to me...that is expected.

Go sit real still in a chair at night and slap a muzzle on that dog and send him from around a corner or something, that would be a nice video...

I do not think you should volunteer your friend's dog to be tested by people you don't know...My idea of "testing" of a PSD would be far different from what you describe as a test... 

Again not knocking the dogs, or the training even...just stating it is my belief that those dogs are NOT working police K9's. I also questioned the relevancy of posting of the video to illustrate anything that is pertinent to this thread...which is about Working PSD. 

I am not sure why you chose to include ARKO in this thread. To my knowledge he was never a PSD. 

And YES I do THINK he would bite if the arms were taken away, I do not see YOUR esquiving techniques being effective on a dog like that. That dog hits or used to hit like a fright train.

Unless it was to compare arras to arko, why bring up that dog?...

I saw the dog, took a coupla bites from him, I doubt highly that there is a comparison to be made. I walked the kennel and looked at about 75 or so dogs and picked arko out of the lineup based on his "hairy eyeball" factor alone. I think you would be a fool to consider working a dog like that, police K9 or not with just that arm on...even with no teeth.

Mike is, as far as I know a very honest person. He has seen most likely, thousands of dogs that are or go on to be working PSD or MWD, and here is his description of Arko from his website.

"ARKO - KNPV PH1 Met Lof considered to be one of the top producing stud dogs for the KNPV program in Holland. Arko has drive, power, and courage like we have never seen in any dog...

...He has a very dominant temperament, with natural aggression and is a very serious dog on and off the field. His frontal attacks are the fastest and most violent that you could imagine, his grips are punishing to the decoy, and his fight drive is extreme. He has won every hard hitting contest he has ever competed in, in the USA and in Holland! He also served as a working security dog in Holland where he hospitalized many suspects...
...Please understand that this dog produces offspring that are hard to handle, and are very aggressive. Experienced handlers are required to handle most Arko offspring."...

maybe a comparison can be made...who knows....but I doubt it...

I liked all the dogs in the vids by the way....and was really just trying give a heads up for the next guy that wants to work a patrol dog in that attire, cause he saw it on youtube...even though I don't know of any K9 handlers/trainers that would allow you to work their dogs like that...

If you are ever in the area, I would love to work dogs with you...guys that take it like a man are hard to find around these parts...I can tell, based on your decoy style and high pain tolerance, my 6'4" 275 lb decoy is a sally bitch compared to you..or he has much better acting skills.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dang, this thread is a good one!


----------



## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Purely from the peanut gallery armchair quarterback position schutzhund guy opinion, that would be my guess too... A young dog, with a lot of play training and the stakes in the poker game were never raised and the ante was never upped, a lot of song and dance display by the dog, but he didn't give up the chase, so some credit there. 

As some other people that know the handler and the dog commented and have a real life expericence on a daily basis (as opposed to me doing schutzhund and reading stuff on a dog forum), the dog was trained more and turned out better as I would imagine he would be.

What would be the expected outcome on a proven, properly trained K9 dog, guys, in this particular case? IMHO, suspect flees or tries to, dog gives chase, leap, upper back bite, suspect down, officer cathces up, cuffs on, let's go. 

Or, alternatively, as we see a clever guy take his jacket off (I do have to give that perp guy some credit for being pretty cool under pressure and circumstances to do that and other stuff shown). Dog gets more pissed for being played, spits the jacket out, goes for the leg, or upper back again SANS the jacket now, guy down, same scenario afterwards.



David Frost said:


> That video has made the rounds for quite a while now. It's not a great performance by a PSD. On a good note, he never gave up the chase. On a bad note, it seems to be a lot of play. Wouldn't be surprised if the dog had a background of early training where the sleeve was given to him at the completion of a bite. The transition was never made into taking the bite serious. I do have the advantage of being in another discussion about that video, wish I could remember where. ha ha.
> 
> Not a stellar moment.
> 
> DFrost


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chopper Cops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdoN42fDVy8


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> , but he didn't give up the chase, so some credit there.
> 
> 
> What would be the expected outcome on a proven, properly trained K9 dog, guys, in this particular case? IMHO, suspect flees or tries to, dog gives chase, leap, upper back bite, suspect down, officer cathces up, cuffs on, let's go.
> ...


The dog didn't give up the chase, as you pointed out, that is a good sign.

The expected outcome is; engage, stay engaged until the handler commands the dog to release. The "where" is whatever the dog happens to glom onto. That parallels another discussion about "targeting". The person running is trying to get free, the dog should be taking the target of opportunity. 

It's not unusual to see a lot of upper thigh bites or high shoulder bites. Either is perfectly acceptable as long as the dog engages, and remains engaged, etc, etc.

When we train, we do throw a sleeve in the path or remove a jacket or slip a sleeve. If you slip a sleeve, you really want to make sure you have another one under the first one, ha ha. 

DFrost


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sam are you off your medication or something?


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

http://m.b5z.net/i/u/6125790/m/Arko_video_clip.wmv

Joby, I am not comparing arko to arras, I have only ever seen videos of arko. I am not putting arko or mike down either.


_And YES I do THINK he would bite if the arms were taken away, I do not see YOUR esquiving techniques being effective on a dog like that. That dog hits or used to hit like a fright train.
_

In the video he is targeting and yet you do think that he would bite if the arms was taken away. 

_But, if they were even just "good" PSD's._

sounds like a diss to me.

not trying to reignite the fire just sayin.............


----------

