# Culling Female Puppies to Preserve Lines



## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

I know quite a few good breeders do it, mostly older breeders. 

What is your take on culling females to preserve a breeder's lines of dogs? 

I'm an all around dog lover (not just working dogs), so I'm not a person that could physically do that to a puppy. 
I'm also not a breeder, so I've never been in their shoes or had someone take my hard work and breeding program and destroy it. 

Couldn't breeders who will go to that length to preserve lines just charge people the cost of an early spay and sell the puppy that way? The pup could still work or just be a companion to someone without the breeder having to worry about someone breeding her.

anyway, would love to hear some opinions, breeders or not... it would be nice to hear from a breeder that does this too, to see their perspective.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> I know quite a few good breeders do it, mostly older breeders.
> 
> What is your take on culling females to preserve a breeder's lines of dogs?
> 
> ...


Not here were to greedy and could give a **** about preserving anything 10 years there going to be more Mals than Pits


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I've never really understood how a breeder can say they are preserving their line by culling females. They are selling the males aren't they? And last time I looked, males could produce puppies also. So either way if people want to breed something off a line, they can.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've never really understood how a breeder can say they are preserving their line by culling females. They are selling the males aren't they? And last time I looked, males could produce puppies also. So either way if people want to breed something off a line, they can.


very true. but I think just the females because their kennel name would not be used for the litter. 
and they usually only keep a female if they want to breed her.

not something I would do. why can't they just do early spays is what I'm asking?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> very true. but I think just the females because their kennel name would not be used for the litter. and they usually only keep a female if they want to breed her.


Unless someone is playing games with the kennel name, they shouldn't be using it for a litter from the male or the female, since it's not their kennel. I have two Contes d'Hoffmann females, but when I breed them the pups will have Dantero as their kennel name, not CdH. Same for when I breed my CdH male. 

I suspect some breeders feel that by only selling males, and culling females, they are making only half the equation available to breed "their" line. That may be true, but most breeders don't have a 100% lock on the lines they are using, so people can get a female from similar lines elsewhere to breed to the male. Or take a male from kennel X, and breed it to a female from kennel Y. Take a female from that litter back to another male from kennel X and you know have pups who are 3/4 kennel X's lines. Keep doing it, it just keeps getting tighter. So while it may have taken a couple generations, very quickly someone else has a concentration of the lines, even without a female.



> not something I would do. why can't they just do early spays is what I'm asking?


I don't think spaying is common in the European countries in general. And that is where I mainly hear of breeders who do this so they may not consider it an option.

What I always wonder is how they know, when killing all but 1-2 females in a litter at birth, that they didn't keep the crappy ones and just kill the good ones?


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> What I always wonder is how they know, when killing all but 1-2 females in a litter at birth, that they didn't keep the crappy ones and just kill the good ones?


bingo! 

p.s. I was just in Europe... did notice most of the dogs (working and companion) were not spayed/neutered. wasn't a big deal to anyone either.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dogs have less meaning in a lot of ways almost everywhere. People eat them, ect ect. Dogs really are livestock. There is no reason for anyone to think otherwise really.

Here, somehow, a dog is more important than a cow, or a chicken, or whatever. When is the last time that you had to snap a chickens neck for dinner ? See what I mean, you are so removed from reality of what livestock is, that things like this confuse you. How could they do something like that ? And then you go out and eat steak. It is our societies fault that this thought process came about.

I see breeders having litters of ten pups, and they do not cull any of them. Ten is too many. They all suffer because of the numbers, they all get less milk, when it is important. Will they die ? No, but because there are too many all suffer.

Some people say that culling is cruel and unnecessary. They are not usually breeders. They would also starve to death if they had to fend for themselves. LOL

Nobody likes to do it, and many people just say nothing. When the GF's dog had pups, one had a cleft palate. So I culled it. Didn't get too sissy about it, but it bothered me, unlike the old days where I didn't think anything of putting a pup like that out. Hate to think it, but I will have problems culling. Never did before, but the reason I stopped was because of it. 

Some breeders will tube feed, bottle feed and all sorts of stuff to keep puppies that would have died alive. That is there philosophy, and it is not right or wrong, it is how they do it. kind of like what you are learning now. Some people cull the females. That is their way, not right or wrong but how they do it.

I wouldn't think to much about it. I know of a breeder that does that, and he has some real nice dogs. If he has success doing that, then that is his thing to me.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

nice to hear a different side. 

you're right, I do think of dogs differently. they just have a bond that I don't think any livestock could give me. 

but again, I'm just an all around dog lover and I'm not a breeder... so I've never been in a position to decide to cull a puppy that was in pain, etc. 
it would be a tough decision for me personally. 
but to cull all the female puppies... you could be throwing away your best working prospect. 

idk, it's an interesting discussion for sure... cant wait to hear from more people.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I think a lot more people would choose a male for work/sport over a female. A lot of people would get a female just for breeding, and not really do much else with her. So I think this may be a way to control what is done with the pups, that they end up in good homes where they're worked. Also as far as breeding, I can't remember who said "if the pups are great, people praise the stud, if the pups are shitty, people blame the bitch" - but that is kinda true, so why would you want your lines females out there being bred to who knows what. Ruin the reputation of the line, maybe. 

Always wondered if the best ones would get culled early on. But, could you cull them if you raised them long enough to see who the best were!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Nobody likes to do it, and many people just say nothing. When the GF's dog had pups, one had a cleft palate. So I culled it. Didn't get too sissy about it, but it bothered me, unlike the old days where I didn't think anything of putting a pup like that out. Hate to think it, but I will have problems culling. Never did before, but the reason I stopped was because of it.
> 
> Some breeders will tube feed, bottle feed and all sorts of stuff to keep puppies that would have died alive. That is there philosophy, and it is not right or wrong, it is how they do it. kind of like what you are learning now. Some people cull the females. That is their way, not right or wrong but how they do it.
> 
> I wouldn't think to much about it. I know of a breeder that does that, and he has some real nice dogs. If he has success doing that, then that is his thing to me.


I'm kind of going to agree with Jeff here. Culling can be a necessary evil. A pup with a cleft palate doesn't stand a chance against healthy litter mates; much more humane to cull it yourself than let it starve. I don't know how I'd feel about culling perfectly healthy pups though, and agreeing with Jeff again, what I can't do to a dog I have no issues with shooting a cow or snapping a chickens neck. I think that's more due to the nature that I have no use for a dead dog but a dead chicken or cow is going on the grill but probably that I get more enjoyment out of interacting with a dog than I do a cow or stupid chicken. 

But to be honest, I never heard of culling all the female pups out of a litter at all until coming on here, so I don't really have an opinion on it one way or another since I've yet to see a really valid argument one way or another on the subject.

The tube feeding/bottle/culling etc has a full thread discussion the OP might be interested in reading if they haven't already. I made the thread so you can probably search it on threads I posted, because I forgot the title of it and I'm too lazy to search it for you.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

I read it Ashley! great thread... i liked reading it... 
this is a kind of a spin off on your thread...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sounds like a control issue thing to me...if you can't stand the idea of the possibility of the pups you produce being used by others, either remove their ability to breed before they leave or keep them all yourself. Or be extremely careful where your pups go. Otherwise, why kill a perfectly good pup? :-k


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Otherwise, why kill a perfectly good pup?

Who said anything about it being perfectly good ? You kill perfectly good chickens and perfectly good cows, and perfectly good shrimp. 

I cannot imagine that you know who the breeder she is talking about is, but if it is who I think it is, you should have one of your "I bred mice so I know what I am talking about" conversations with him. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Way ahead of you...I don't care who it is. Just seems a waste of otherwise good pups.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dogs have less meaning in a lot of ways almost everywhere. People eat them, ect ect. Dogs really are livestock. There is no reason for anyone to think otherwise really












We've re-hashed this probably 2-3 times on here at the minimum. Within our cultural norms and particularly what we ask performance dogs to do, no, they are not livestock. In places they actually DO eat dog, they prefer them not be intelligent. If you want to re-hash it again, we can again.



> Here, somehow, a dog is more important than a cow, or a chicken, or whatever. When is the last time that you had to snap a chickens neck for dinner ? See what I mean, you are so removed from reality of what livestock is, that things like this confuse you. How could they do something like that ? And then you go out and eat steak. It is our societies fault that this thought process came about.


I've eaten the chickens I processed (slaughtered) before. I came from a family who hunted occasionally and fished often. I recently culled my pick of the litter male who was the son of my favorite rat ever and a rat I had for over a year because he was not as good as his father and he wasn't getting along with his cagemate (not a trait I wish to breed for). Then fed him to my snake, cause waste not, want not. I want some hair sheep for meat when we move to some acreage and I wouldn't mind processing them myself if I had a good set of knives and maybe a bone saw. 

I am pragmatic and would likely agree with putting down a pup with a birth defect like a cleft palate, heart defect, liver shunt, etc, but killing pups that are *OTHERWISE HEALTHY* just to be a control freak seems silly.



> I see breeders having litters of ten pups, and they do not cull any of them. Ten is too many. They all suffer because of the numbers, they all get less milk, when it is important. Will they die ? No, but because there are too many all suffer.


Ten is too many? According to who? Most bitches have 8-10 teats and generally not all the puppies nurse at the same time. If it's a really large litter, why not ask around with other breeders and try cross fostering? All suffer? I figure you'd appreciate the chance for the strong puppies to prove their mettle and let the weaker ones fade. ;-)


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## Loren Leffew (May 11, 2009)

I was just talking about culling pups on another forum, lol.

Anyway, I think to cull perfectly healthy puppies just to try to preserve your lines is rather sickening, and I would never buy from someone that did that. There are more options, spay or limited registration (with the AKC at least) or a spay contract. When it pertains to culling pups that have problems, I can, at the very least, understand. But I simply can't understand how someone could kill a puppy that is healthy.

On a rather unrelated note, I have eaten livestock that my family has raised (though I really debated going back to being a vegetarian, lol). I know that some places view dogs as livestock. I also don't think those people should be breeding them (except as in livestock for food, I suppose). If you do not honestly love your dogs, I don't think you should be in the 'dog world.' And if you can kill a puppy that is healthy and happy, then I highly doubt you really love them. Go do something that doesn't involve actual living animals. Heck, I even feel the same way about livestock raised for slaughter for the most part. I truly loved those pigs, and cared for them as I would a pet. Did it make it harder to eat them, yes. Did it make their lives better, and my piece of mind happier, also yes.

I have every intention of breeding in the future, and I would rather never own a dog again my entire life than kill a puppy for an idiotic(in my opinion) reason, like preserving the line or too many puppies. Maybe I should go back to foo-foo dogs, and stay out of working dogs, because I've seen a lot of the 'they're just dogs' mentality here, and I'm a sissy who thinks dogs are members of the family.

Also, there was an absolutely beautiful story in a book I read about a puppy with a cleft palate that the breeder saved. Very very sweet story, maybe some of y'all should read it, lol.

Didn't mean to get so passionate.  Sorry about that; I got carried away...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My landlord was convinced that movie was about me. For years he called me Dude.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Also, there was an absolutely beautiful story in a book I read about a puppy with a cleft palate that the breeder saved. Very very sweet story, maybe some of y'all should read it, lol.

Didn't mean to get so passionate. Sorry about that; I got carried away...

Did you screw up and think this was a pet forum or something ?

If you have 12 pups, you should keep all of them alive simply because they are healthy ? Pup with a cleft palate is dead. What good is a dog with a cleft palate anyway ? What other defect does this dog have that it cannot tell you about ? 

Quote: 
Anyway, I think to cull perfectly healthy puppies just to try to preserve your lines is rather sickening.

So don't buy one then. The guy I know has some of the top Mals in the world. Who are you to tell him he is sickening ? That is what I do not get, if you were a vegetarian, then at least you stick to your convictions. Since you are not, then what is it you really have a problem with ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I figure you'd appreciate the chance for the strong puppies to prove their mettle and let the weaker ones fade.

Like some sissy that cannot deal with his own doing ? I will have a hard time with it, but trust me, it will be done.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Healthy pups are crawling and looking for the tat right after birth. Any that aren't should be culled. I see no benefit to culling the females and selling the males....but, this may go back to a lot of breeders that feel the strength is in the females.


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## Loren Leffew (May 11, 2009)

_"Did you screw up and think this was a pet forum or something ?

If you have 12 pups, you should keep all of them alive simply because they are healthy ? Pup with a cleft palate is dead. What good is a dog with a cleft palate anyway ? What other defect does this dog have that it cannot tell you about ?"_​
Haha, nope, I know where I'm at. But, like I said, I probably ought to stick with sissy pets. I just love working my dogs, and try not to bother with the drama. I don't even normally post, too much drama... oh, well. A little drama spices up life, right. :razz:

Yes, in MY opinion, you should keep them all. You bred the litter, it's your responsibility. You should have known there was a possibility that 12 puppies could be born. Unless the mother dog is in danger, you should raise all the healthy puppies. Though, if you don't want to, that's your choice, of course! I just wouldn't buy from you. (And I don't mean 'you' in particular, just in general).

A pup with a cleft palate is only dead if the breeder doesn't work their butts off to save it. I do not have a problem with others culling a puppy with a cleft palate. I wouldn't do it unless their was no way to save the pup, and then I hope I would have the guts to end it's life humanely. And a dog with a cleft palate can make a wonderful pet (crap, wrong forum again, silly me). It's not like every puppy in the litter has to go to a working dog home. And I didn't know that a cleft palate means the dog has other disorders, too, but I could be wrong.

_"So don't buy one then. The guy I know has some of the top Mals in the world. Who are you to tell him he is sickening ? That is what I do not get, if you were a vegetarian, then at least you stick to your convictions. Since you are not, then what is it you really have a problem with ?"
_​ 
Didn't I say that was what I would do, simply not buy one. I'm not a Peta-puke, I wouldn't run around screaming 'abuse.' I just think it is a rather disturbing thought. I really shouldn't judge, though, you definitely have a point there. Maybe the person who know could prove me wrong.

I only wanted to be a vegetarian for a month, and stuck with it for a year. I never intended to be one for any longer. I wanted to see how hard it was, and if it was true about the extra energy (didn't change my energy level at all, lol). But, I think I'm a little confused about that last bit? Maybe you could rephrase, and I'd be more than happy to answer.  I only threw in the vegetarian bit because I was saying that I did find it harder to eat something I had helped raise.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Why do non breeders always feel the need to jump in these threads?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why do non breeders always feel the need to jump in these threads?


For the same reasons nontrainers jump in on training threads . They think they know way more then they actually do and have no idea how stupid they sound .


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## Loren Leffew (May 11, 2009)

_"Why do non breeders always feel the need to jump in these threads?"_

Because non-breeders also have opinions, and, more importantly, the OP said that both breeders and non-breeders could reply.

Why do breeders always get so defensive when a non-breeder has an opinion? (That was a joke, please take it as one, :wink: )

You have a point, maybe people that don't breed don't understand, like how people that don't train can't understand some training issues. But, in this topic, I don't see why the non-breeders can't say what they think. They are the ones buying the puppies, right? For this topic, I think the opinions of the non-breeder (aka, the buyers) do matter. Now, if the OP had asked "What is the best method for weaning puppies," or something along those lines, I think it would be silly for non-breeders to reply.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I don't see why the non-breeders can't say what they think. They are the ones buying the puppies, right?

So, when your car breaks down, you tell your mechanic how to fix it, and what tool to use, right ? After all, you are paying him. LOL

When you know **** all, and I am not being mean, everyone is there at one point, your opinion means nothing, because you should be asking questions instead of having an opinion.

Breeders that do not cull want the money. They put a dog in a home that should have been dead, and someone, like yourself, is going to get an opinion based on that dog that should have been dead, and go and get a dog like that for themselves.

It is all part of the "everyone is special" mentality. People like to think that they are special, and why earn the right to speak, and be able to do so intellegently when you can just make noise out of the side of your mouth ???

Maren bred mice, so of course she knows what to do. HA HA

People are very rarely special. That is how they got that "special" designation. Breeders are in a really interesting catagory. They do not have to really know shit, and they are in. They are the "experts". Now there are different kinds of experts, and breeders are no different. It is not politically correct to cull puppies, so that is what they spout.

Some breeders are not going to tell you shit. They will never tell you there WERE ten pups, but now there are 6. You were not there, so their thinking is **** you. Some breeders see ten pups, and they are thinking $$$$$$$$. The current PC crap makes that perfect for them.

Shame on that Walt Disney **** that saved a cull. That is not helping the breed, it is helping his marketing. **** him. LOL


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

In the farming area I live many farmers are very matter of fact about their dogs. They breed their bitch and have a litter. They usually wait to pick the best working dog or bitch and what they then cant sell or give to another farmer they shoot. They have absolutely no compunction about shooting a dog that isnt working out on livestock in either a physical or instinct capacity.

Not something I could do personally but rehoming a working dog as a pet in is often not a solutuion either.

A breeder I know who breeds working dogs told me the strength of the kennel is in its bitches. Is it possible to pick the best females at such an early age? For herding dogs I dont believe it is.


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## Loren Leffew (May 11, 2009)

_"So, when your car breaks down, you tell your mechanic how to fix it, and what tool to use, right ? After all, you are paying him. LOL"

_Dang it, that was a pretty good comeback. Every time I think I have a good counter-argument, I find a fallacy. I hope I didn't give anyone the impression I was acting like a know-it-all! I was trying to say that the breeder should learn what the buyer wants, and at least understand why, not that the non-breeders know better.
_
"...your opinion means nothing, because you should be asking questions instead of having an opinion._"

That is the truest thing you've ever said.

_"Breeders that do not cull want the money."_

That, however, is your opinion, and probably is right 99% of the time. I wish the world did not work like that, but it does. I hope that when I do start breeding, I don't forget that money was never why I wanted to breed in the first place. If that were to ever happen, I would hope someone would smack me, lol.

_"They will never tell you there WERE ten pups, but now there are 6."
_
A very scary thought, and one I did think about. Most breeders have pictures, though, of when the puppies were just born. If not, I really wouldn't have any clue.


I'm going back to shutting up and listening now! I knew to stay quiet, then I had to go and open my big mouth. Also, Jeff, you're comments are very blunt, but I think that bluntness is rather refreshing in a way. You're not one of those people that are nice for the sake of being nice, and, as far as I can tell, you stand behind what you say. If only everyone was like that *sigh* And that you and a few other people are those that when I don't have to look at the name to know who wrote it. :lol:

Wait, almost forgot that I had a question! (I'm allowed those, right?) I realize that culling the weaker pups helps the breed (still makes me shudder, but I understand). But how could culling females or culling for numbers help? Wouldn't you run the risk of killing off your best pup? And wouldn't it be better for the breeder if people bought and worked their puppies, since it would improve their reputation? People were starting to answer that, but then (mostly my fault) we got off track.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Loren, as I said which Sara mentioned also, many believe the weight rests on the females in breeding. Old time breeders practice this culling of females moreso than breeders new to the game. Breeders new to the game would never be able to form an intelligent thought on the matter having a litter a year.

As far as having someone take the dogs and working them helping their name. How would you know who can train well enough to give a breeder a good name vs a bad name. If all trainers were that good, every kennel would look great. It works both ways and much more often for the worse. Most everyone thinks they are a trainer. Many, think they are trainers because they get paid as a trainers. The reality is, the vast majority can't train any better than I can...but they still think they are trainers.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Loren, bear in mind that there are a lot of diiferent people that make up this world we live in. 
Culling is a necessary evil that some breeders practice for their own reasons whatsoever they may be. But through the teachings of my grandfather several years ago, I've learned more than a few things about culling that you maybe haven't thought of. so allow me to share.
Breeders that cull usually dont give a rat's hindquarters about a buck. They are breeding for specific qualities from particular a breed of dog from a specific line of dogs. That's the long ,short & midpoint of the entire breeding program. Now if a dam was bred to a champion working stud to produce working line pups & has a litter of 12 pups, there will not be 12 working prospects. There may be 8 or 5 or even only 1 pup that the breeder can see would potentially be up to the task for which it was bred, be that task PP,herding,drug detection. If the others don't make the grade they are culled because

1/ other than keeping them himself( & some do) there is no way to guarantee those same pups will find a home suitable to their breeding.
2/A lot of idiots snap up pups from working line kennels to keep as pets because of how they look,run,play etc and discover the've bitten off a lot more than they know how to handle. If that pup turns 6 mo & bites their son or daughter the buyer can potentially return with the pup wanting a refund, or threatening to sue.
3/ a working dog is exactly what it is. A WORKING DOG. If a seemingly healthy pup is not strong enough or motivated enough to try to survive by finding a teat(and thats a natural instinct, not a trained one) the thought is it won't be strong enough for the work it was bred to do. In other words, his work starts the day he is born. His job is to prove he can survive.
4/ The breeder may prefer to cull apparently weaker pups or runts so that the stronger ones have the advantage of more food, training from the dam(if they're being kept), etc so that he can maximize the potential of those pups he keeps, and better assess the temperament of those he sells so as to find a home more suited to their breeding.

These are just a few reasons and there are many more, but the only reason that actually sums them all into one is this. It's solely the breeder's choice.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

loren leffew said:


> _"so,_
> 
> i hope that when i do start breeding, i don't forget that money was never why i wanted to breed in the first place. If that were to ever happen, i would hope someone would smack me, lol.
> 
> ...


There is no need for additional breeders to perpetuate working lines that have already been established by experienced and dedicated breeders who do have the respect for their breeds and the knowledge to make important decisions for the health of the litter, the genetic integrity of their stock and the longevity of its progeny.
Culling is not only necessary but warranted, it happens in nature all the time. You may not see it, but it is a regular part of the circle of life in all living things.
Get over it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Not here were to greedy and could give a **** about preserving anything 10 years there going to be more Mals than Pits


I agree Mike....its pathetic really.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Loren, as I said which Sara mentioned also, many believe the weight rests on the females in breeding. Old time breeders practice this culling of females moreso than breeders new to the game. Breeders new to the game would never be able to form an intelligent thought on the matter having a litter a year.
> 
> As far as having someone take the dogs and working them helping their name. How would you know who can train well enough to give a breeder a good name vs a bad name. If all trainers were that good, every kennel would look great. It works both ways and much more often for the worse. Most everyone thinks they are a trainer. Many, think they are trainers because they get paid as a trainers. The reality is, the vast majority can't train any better than I can...but they still think they are trainers.


Don everytime I get heady and start thinking Im a "trainer" some dog proves to me that I am still a work in progress at best lol .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

crack the can open a little farther...

What about culling pups that are old enough to puppy test some, and show signs of problems with their nerves and things that are not even concerning physical health? This is also done. Probably more rare with established working breeds..

Someone said a breeder chose to breed, and therefore they are responsible for those pups.

That is true, but they also are breeding for a goal, and if the pups are not up to snuff, or will be shotty, it is also their choice to decide what to do with them. They are playing god, god has choices...

Should a litter of pups that scatter away from a dropped food pan, or shake and hide in new environments be sold, or kept, if a strong working line is the goal? Some breeders may just sell those as pets, or restrict breeding through papers or neuter/spay, but who is in it for the money more??? someone that makes all the money disappear, or someone that sells all those weak pups, and pockets all the money?

If goal is working dogs, supplying substandard pets to people that may be dangerous as adults, may not be desirable for some people, with higher standards for their animals, and their product.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Nice post Ricardo, thanks for making those points.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

We culd at 6 weeks. 2 pups, one was aloot smaler and week/slow the othet had a broken tail "born With" and we have had this befor and downt want anyone to use thos dog, we wher thinking of culling one more du to not so good temp, but we gave her to 10 weeks and she turnd oute ok. Not anything we wuld breed on but ok as a pett/light working dog. 
She cant be breed Do to the contract we have on her. 

I wuld like to cull more, just keep 4 in every liter. But ther is just to mutch change in tempeament in the first year to not miss the good ones to. No we just cull defekts and clerly bad/week temp.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I Will Do a exprimental breeding With My bitch With à realy hard, driwy agresive male and ther i Will cull al but one dog, maby 2 if i can get the exact right home ner by me. 
I Will not sell dogs like thees becaus ther are not peopel her that i feel can handel them, but its the kind of dogs i want so therfor i Will keep one for My self and hopfully When we prove them egnuf peopel With egnuff knowlage Will want to have thos dogs to, if not i will keep doingt thos liters for My self and the fiew others that want them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: But how could culling females or culling for numbers help? 

Ricardo did a nice job with that. Culling is culling to me. I am not enjoying it, I am miserable, and if anyone came near me after I did it, I would tell them to go away. 

Ask a breeder if they have their own "Line" and you can see what I am talking about. Look at the pedigree, and when it has their name on the bitch, and dog, and then every other dog has someone else's name, and they have been "Breeders" for years, that tells you a lot. It is a percentage game, but too many "Breeders" have just bought dogs from breeders and are letting them do the work.

There is nothing wrong with either way, but if someone is doing something like culling females, that person didn't just wake up one day and say I am going to kill female pups. Something that they didn't like happened, and that was the way that they felt would fix whatever happened.

I am not going to judge someones breeding program on if they cull or not. I am going to judge it on what it has produced.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> I Will Do a exprimental breeding With My bitch With à realy hard, driwy agresive male and ther i Will cull al but one dog, maby 2 if i can get the exact right home ner by me.
> I Will not sell dogs like thees becaus ther are not peopel her that i feel can handel them, but its the kind of dogs i want so therfor i Will keep one for My self and hopfully When we prove them egnuf peopel With egnuff knowlage Will want to have thos dogs to, if not i will keep doingt thos liters for My self and the fiew others that want them.


If you have to cull them all now due to the fact there out of control and to crazy or what ever they are meant to be. What makes you think someone should have them from the next litter.
Another thing sounds like your breeding for extremes is this a good thing? or you just want to bring a something into your line, what s your goal with this, can you explain also wondering what breed of dog is this.


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## Shawn Reed (Nov 9, 2010)

When a breeder decides to cull puppy's is this more so when they are first establishing their own line or does this happen throughout the duration of their breeding career?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why do non breeders always feel the need to jump in these threads?


coze the original poster of this topic asked for breeder and non breeder to respond...hence they jump in


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

As a buyer not a breeder...

When I wanted a pup I picked a breeder after a lot of research - I liked the dogs she produced, how they performed etc.

Point is... I trusted her to give me a healthy, drivey working pup who was a good example of her breeding lines. If you trust the breeder for those things, you have to trust that they know what they are doing when it comes to stuff like culling.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

First off, I'm not a breeder but I attended a number of well organised seminars for breeders. I learned a lot from these seminars, both from the breeders attending and the lecturers. It helped me choose a serious breeder.

One breeder sticks in my mind - our Fila Brasileiro breeder. She would cull puppies that weren't likely to live a normal life. One smash against the wall at 1-2 days old and that was it. I can live with this.

When I bought my Briard, the rules in the Briard Club, Switzerland were, 8 pups only. The bitch had 10. Due to unforeseen circumstances, the breed inspector came when the pups were 2-3 weeks' old. It was decided that one with white hairs on its chest and one (with some physical attributes not conforming) would be put down. At first the Vet refused until the breeder explained. I will never forget these pups as I saw the litter from day one each and every day. But, on the other hand, the pups suffered nothing. They, healthy as they were, were robbed of a life but, they didn't suffer. *WE *did.

The breed club changed the number of the pups which could be kept to 10, and the next litter was physically A1.

Some bitches are capable of raising 10, some not.

In Germany, on a forum, they help each other out by publishing whether they can take on a few newborn pups if their bitches only have 2-3 pups and the ones with too many are happy.

For those of you who think it is cruel to eliminate pups, just think of it this way, the pups feel nothing and, if they have physical defects, it is the best thing for them. If it is done correctly, there is no need to get up on one's hind legs.

There are far, far more brutal things in the world being carried out to man and beast that would earn your criticism.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ok now im no breeder but i have bred several litters in the past and im thinking that just because it might be painless to cull puppies it doesnt make it acceptable either...now im no bleeding heart when it comes to pups and when i have a litter i let nature take its course..the bad pups will simply wither away or If i feel they dont look healthy or strong enough i will have the vet put them to sleep since i refuse to hand of poorly pups to new owners so they can spend the rest of the dogs life with it at the vets office. But this doesnt mean there would be a need to cull healthy pups regardless of them being males or females or maybe they have floppy ears or a spot in the wrong place. 

If you are a breeder and want to produce a good product you will have to take the good with the bad...culling pups at 2 or 3 weeks ? are you kidding me ? at six weeks? you should be shot! have them spayed or neutered and then give them away for ****s sake but the culling i can live with upto a certain point and it has to make sence....if its poorly or sick put it down but kill it when its healty with no obvious issues ? Im not sure thats a desirable thing....they did that with thouroughbred dogs and look where the hell that landed us and how great are all those thouroughbreds doing now ? 

and the whole thing about them not suffering....its dont hurt them so that makes it ok ? In my eyes you do not cull healthy animals.....as a breeder you should take the good with the bad and deal with whatever offspring you have that you dont want in a different manner then to simply put them down.


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## Loren Leffew (May 11, 2009)

I'm learning a lot, thanks, everyone! Very interesting thread.

I still think that it is cruel. But, since it helps the breed, I really have no right to complain. You all must understand that working dogs is fairly new to me, and was more into sissy pet dog stuff before (where if you mentioned culling, people would likely cry, lol), so some of these concepts I hadn't even heard of before now. After they've been explained a little, I can see the positives in them.

Jerry, I'm not sure why you don't think I should breed. I know I have A LOT to learn before I start. And I understand the practice of culling weaker puppies, and am beginning to see the benefit of culling females and for numbers. I still don't think I could do that. But, does that mean I shouldn't breed dogs ever?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Healthy or not, any animal is better off dead, than unwanted or needed. Who ends up with these culls? How many hands do they pass threw, just so we can feel better about ourselves? How much $ is poured into dogs with health and behavioural issues? 

I for one, don't want someone elses cast off, when it comes to a working dog. Cats, they are a different story. I'll take a homeless, mongrel shelter cat, over paying some inflated price for essentially the same thing. An annoying hairball, that does nothing but eat, shit, sleep! I gotta do my part to make the world warm and fuzzy, afterall.

I don't have any comment about culling females. Not sure how you pick at 1-3 days old which pups will be better but it's not my job to critisize someone elses practices. There must be a reason.

I do know people who cull many months down the line, after prelims and working a pup on and off for months. If it's not what they want out there, adding to the genepool, it goes. No spays, no pet homes, no dumping a shitter off on the next guy. It seems harsh but when you use common sense, it's the only responsible thing you can do in regards to the whole planet. Best for the breed, best for the dogs in question, best for the shelters, best for the poor fool who would be stuck with a broke dog or nervebag, for 10+ yrs of their life, and best for their name in the breeding/selling dog world. 

That is doing your breed a service. They end up out allot of $, time and effort but their reputaition, is worth more to them, than $.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Healthy or not, any animal is better off dead, than unwanted or needed. Who ends up with these culls? How many hands do they pass threw, just so we can feel better about ourselves? How much $ is poured into dogs with health and behavioural issues?
> 
> I for one, don't want someone elses cast off, when it comes to a working dog. Cats, they are a different story. I'll take a homeless, mongrel shelter cat, over paying some inflated price for essentially the same thing. An annoying hairball, that does nothing but eat, shit, sleep! I gotta do my part to make the world warm and fuzzy, afterall.
> 
> ...


+1


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Loren Leffew said:


> I'm not sure why you don't think I should breed. I know I have A LOT to learn before I start. And I understand the practice of culling weaker puppies, and am beginning to see the benefit of culling females and for numbers. I still don't think I could do that. But, does that mean I shouldn't breed dogs ever?


The main reason you shouldn’t breed cause your nuts! That’s why. You went from being nut job against culling to seeing the positive in culling in two pages. And anyone who thinks there dog is a member of the family is nuts. I like my dogs as much as anyone can but to rank a dog as a member of my family like my children is a bit sico. JMO


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## Loren Leffew (May 11, 2009)

_"The main reason you shouldn’t breed cause your nuts! That’s why. You went from being nut job against culling to seeing the positive in culling in two pages. And anyone who thinks there dog is a member of the family is nuts. I like my dogs as much as anyone can but to rank a dog as a member of my family like my children is a bit sico. JMO"

_lol. I saw the positive in culling weaker pups long before, but I couldn't understand how culling females was at all positive. And I still think it is extremely cruel, and will never do it myself. I just can at least understand where they are coming from, and am trying to remember not to judge before I know all the facts (which I failed at doing before). Sorry for educating myself? I do think my dogs are a member of the family. Of course I think the humans are more important! But that doesn't mean I can't think of them as family. Oh well, can't please everyone, lol.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> +1


 
Ya what he said +1 or 2


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

thanks for the responses everyone... really interesting from both sides. 
remember, I'm not talking about culling in general.......
I'm specifically talking about culling all females to preserve lines. 

It's really hard to form an opinion on this for me... 
I happen to be a psycho "my dog is a part of my family" person... I am just a little obsessed with my dogs, ahah. 

i agree with culling really sick, deformed puppes..... but again, I'm just talking about all the females in one litter... which i think is extreme.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Im not the authority on when your officially nuts or not and to many non dog people I am nuts. But I think it ok to think your dog is part of the family. Somehow part of the family is not the same as a member of the family. Once someone starts saying there dog is like a child to them or they think that they are the dogs mommy or daddy they crossed things start getting creepy. Could probably make a whole nother thread on this.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Could probably make a whole nother thread on this.


do ittt.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I personally think culling females to preserve a line is as out of style as breeders having true lines. How many breeder are there in the US today with true lines? Very few. Look at the pedigrees once they hit the US. Buy a dog here buy a dog there, all for titles. People here refer to "their lines" after a generation. One litter and they put their name on it and call it a line. A line is many generations of your own dogs. Few people in the US have a line to protect by culling the females.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am going to call this upcoming litter "my line" LOL


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> Im not the authority on when your officially nuts or not and to many non dog people I am nuts. But I think it ok to think your dog is part of the family. Somehow part of the family is not the same as a member of the family. Once someone starts saying there dog is like a child to them or they think that they are the dogs mommy or daddy they crossed things start getting creepy. Could probably make a whole nother thread on this.


I had had a bit of a chuckle here. My dogs are definitely part of my family - although they are definitely not my kids LOL, but I do definitely prefer their company to many people I know! Perhaps I am a bit physcho.

My friend was looking for a rhodesian ridgeback and she phoned a breeder who had just had a litter all taken except one female that she was about to cull because it didnt have a proper ridge. My very persistant friend persuaded her to part with it a spay contract. That dog is a fantastic dog. I actually dont agree with culling on this basis.

On the subject of rehoming a working dog that is about to be culled because it is no good. That is very common practice around here among farmers. Sometimes it is possible to find the right home - I have one of these dogs but often sadly it is not due to temperament issues and in that case the dog is better off culled humanely. Nothing worse than seeing working dogs recycled through rescues and pounds.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> \My friend was looking for a rhodesian ridgeback and she phoned a breeder who had just had a litter all taken except one female that she was about to cull because it didnt have a proper ridge. My very persistant friend persuaded her to part with it a spay contract. That dog is a fantastic dog. I actually dont agree with culling on this basis.


Sara, did you get to see that program on the BBC called Pedigree Dogs Exposed? The whole thing is on Youtube and they address the Rhodesian ridgeback issue and culling puppies without ridge. Show breeders at their finest... ](*,) Here's the part with the ridgebacks and the first part of the series from the beginning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA_DOkZRk7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbvv0vBf7t8


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

saw that! ugh.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sara, did you get to see that program on the BBC called Pedigree Dogs Exposed? The whole thing is on Youtube and they address the Rhodesian ridgeback issue and culling puppies without ridge. Show breeders at their finest... ](*,) Here's the part with the ridgebacks and the first part of the series from the beginning.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA_DOkZRk7Q
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbvv0vBf7t8


Yes I saw it, it was pretty horrifying really. Particularly when you look a the original versions of most of those dogs and see how far they have morphed when bred rigidly to some weird physical standards and fads, to satisfy fashions in the show ring. Recently there was some talk of a genetic study indicating that the homogenous Australian showbred Border Colie is actually as different enough from the working bred BC to be a separate breed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I guess when they got to the part where the breeders think that a ridgeless dog carries a genetic fault they just stopped there. Why ask more, as it may not further their cause.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So Jeff, you're more likely to believe those daft old British show breeders that are no doubt out in the African bush comparing how well their ridged show dogs hunt lions compared to ridgeless dogs? :lol: Doing crazy things to the spine is screws up anatomy. I had an English bulldog come in last weekend on a dermatology referral case that kept scooting its butt across the carpet. Turns out the tip of its tight screw tail was actually growing clear through into its skin. *shudder* They may have to amputate the tail.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I guess when they got to the part where the breeders think that a ridgeless dog carries a genetic fault they just stopped there. Why ask more, as it may not further their cause.


I know I saw that video awhile back, but don't want to go and re-watch it. Don't the dogs with ridges technically have the genetic fault and some kind of health issues associated? So, essentially, they are culling the non-faulty dogs in preference to the faulty ones?

Sorry, I know, not on topic, but I can't remember.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, that was basically the conclusion.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is their breeding program, not any of ours. Who really gives a shit ? Watch that stupid animal planet dog cops or whatever and worry about what those people do. They actually went out and GOT a dog and decided to abuse the shit out of it, and leave it out in the cold. 

For every breeder that culls, there are thousands and thousands of people who abuse dogs. These people put their dogs to sleep. They are responsible for what they are producing, unlike these other thousands and thousands of people. Get over yourselves.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> First off, I'm not a breeder but I attended a number of well organised seminars for breeders. I learned a lot from these seminars, both from the breeders attending and the lecturers. It helped me choose a serious breeder.
> 
> One breeder sticks in my mind - our Fila Brasileiro breeder. She would cull puppies that weren't likely to live a normal life. One smash against the wall at 1-2 days old and that was it. I can live with this.
> 
> ...


Yeah, i'm going to listen to a dipshit club guy to tell me how many pups I can have......sheeple. Ever see the program on show dogs and the UKC? They think what they're doing is correct too, lol


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

One thing I am still not getting is how do you know, barring obvious physical deformities, which pups to cull at 1-3 days old.I dont know any breeders of working sheepdog that do this. They all wait to pick their best dogs or bitches that they are going to keep. Then sell, rehome or cull the others as they see fit.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> One thing I am still not getting is how do you know, barring obvious physical deformities, which pups to cull at 1-3 days old.I dont know any breeders of working sheepdog that do this. They all wait to pick their best dogs or bitches that they are going to keep. Then sell or cull the others as they see fit.


eenie meenie minee moe...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> eenie meenie minee moe...


Well that cant be good


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Well that cant be good


At that age, there is no way to know. They probably have a number in mind for total to keep, and then a sex determination, and most likely keep the biggest of what they want to keep.

Much better to pick at 5,6,7,8,9 weeks, but MUCH harder to cull emotionally at that age for most people.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

It is ironic in a way that people have big problems with culling, when millions of HUMAN babies are aborted in all stages of development, and so many don't care.

I bet more people would be outraged if they found out someone culled 6 week old puppies, than if someone got a late term or partial birth abortion.

I personally think there are too many dogs AND too many people on the planet already, so I don't get worked up about either...


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> It is ironic in a way that people have big problems with culling, when millions of HUMAN babies are aborted in all stages of development, and so many don't care.
> 
> I bet more people would be outraged if they found out someone culled 6 week old puppies, than if someone got a late term or partial birth abortion.
> 
> I personally think there are too many dogs AND too many people on the planet already, so I don't get worked up about either...


 
I'm with that!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> It is ironic in a way that people have big problems with culling, when millions of HUMAN babies are aborted in all stages of development, and so many don't care.
> 
> I bet more people would be outraged if they found out someone culled 6 week old puppies, than if someone got a late term or partial birth abortion.
> 
> I personally think there are too many dogs AND too many people on the planet already, so I don't get worked up about either...


Since that's not a debate I want to get into I'll just say this - I'd rather see people culling puppies any day of the week than aborting babies - whether it's a matter of "choice" or not. 

I take this side on it, it's your choice (for either subject) and I don't have to like it because I don't have to live with it.

It does make me think now though, the litter I got my new pup from didn't have a single bitch puppy. Luck or....? Doesn't matter, I like my pup and would have bought him either way.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> At that age, there is no way to know. They probably have a number in mind for total to keep, and then a sex determination, and most likely keep the biggest of what they want to keep.
> 
> Much better to pick at 5,6,7,8,9 weeks, but MUCH harder to cull emotionally at that age for most people.


 
Very true but logically in the end if you are going to cull anyway, it amounts to the same thing, and you might end up with a better pups particularly if you are trying to breed really good working lines.

I couldnt do it but then will I never be a breeder. But I am used to farmers doing it, but then for them it is merely a business decision and they are used to culling animals.


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## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

If you feel "your line" has that "special" something due to the X Chromosome; then yeah; culling females will keep that special something in your kennel; as opposed to someone else's. I imagine the kennel that culls their female pups will eventually keep a female back to replace their brood bitch (or a daughter/sister of a good son); but of course; you'd have to ask that kennel. 

Horse breeders in the past used to offer incentives/paybacks for gelding colts -- keeping their bloodlines rare.


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