# Targeting on the long bite



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Okay, I have a high drive female malinois whom is 4. She is not the craziest Malinois I have seen, But her father is. She got about 70% of his drive. So, When I say high drive...It's enough that she does everything with no regard to her own saftey...looks nice, but scares the shit out of me. I have been working on targeting since she was baby. The problem she never jumps on the longbite. just on the ground till she get's there. Also, even if you hold a toy, pillow, tug, sleeve off to the side with your arm fully extended she will target that till the last second, then she will vere in to hit the helper center mass with her body. She will still get the bite, But this making catching her extremely diffcult even for good helpers...Bert Aerts, Peter Vertachant (sp?) whom both have worked multiple world championships commented on how diffcult she can be to catch. Her last 2 trials have both been on regional level helpers...both got knocked on thier arse's. The 2 nd one as he was going down did not let go of the sleeve, and after looking at the pics of the long bite, I am suprised she did not get seriously injured. The problem gets worse when helpers try to anticpate and start to spin early, as in early I mean before she makes contact...if the helper can stay put till she makes contact things go good. But most helpers thinking of being safe, and doing a nice catch...try to move one second early. 

I have tried throwing the pillow or tug at the last second to try and make her keep her focus on the object to be bit. I have turned around with the sleeve to one side, with (I know this sounds gay) but with the helpers ass in the way if she decided to vere, so she will hit it, with little damage to the helper and making not so enjoyable for her to hit. this will work by the third one, but she always reverts back to her old flight pattern. I have tried the jump over an object to get her to jump.. I have tried having the helper back up at the last moment, to get her to jump. Some of these things do work. But what now seems to be the problem is that with all the runway required for a 3, the more room she has, the more wound up she gets and the less she thinks. My last ditch attempt to keep her safe, is ignoring the judge to send her and wait till the helper gets a bit closer. I have had some luck with moving the sleeve vertically, that is, presenting the sleeve about chin level, she will jump then...problem is most helpers hold the sleeve low in a trial. So when she sees this she does not jump. And in the last trial the helper did not present the sleeve until the final 8 feet or so this made the problem worse on that particular catch...

So what do you all do for targeting? any Ideas.

Oh way I have tried to get her to target the stick...does not work.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

You have done all the stuff that I know of. Many reps of holding the bite pillow out both left and rite seemed to work the best for Jett I had the same problem only he takes to the air sooner. 
And yes I am scared shitless for his safety when I send him long. The pillow was a safe way to work on it with out him getting hurt or slowing down his long bite. Good luck I'll be watching to see if there are some tips offered that you or I havent tried.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> You have done all the stuff that I know of. Many reps of holding the bite pillow out both left and rite seemed to work the best for Jett I had the same problem only he takes to the air sooner.
> And yes I am scared shitless for his safety when I send him long. The pillow was a safe way to work on it with out him getting hurt or slowing down his long bite. Good luck I'll be watching to see if there are some tips offered that you or I havent tried.


 
Thansk Mike...I have questioned if I have done stuff long enough. But I think this one of the problems with a dog that gets more and more driven as the routine goes on. Outs get harder and harder for her also.

and her father does the exact same thing.


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

I would suggest short distance bites (around 20-30 yards) have helper stand facing her and maybe put him behind something like a log or something she has to jump. Have the helper left the sleeve high around shoulder lenght. This should help her come higher. I would do this if you feel you must work on it. For her safety and the helpers if she is that commented to the bite then I would not do alot of distance work and work on the areas she has problems with such as out, dirty biting and if she doesn't then just enjoy having a great dog, I hope that helps, thanks Jimmy


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Okay, I have a high drive female malinois whom is 4. She is not the craziest Malinois I have seen, But her father is. She got about 70% of his drive. So, When I say high drive...It's enough that she does everything with no regard to her own saftey...looks nice, but scares the shit out of me. I have been working on targeting since she was baby. The problem she never jumps on the longbite. just on the ground till she get's there. Also, even if you hold a toy, pillow, tug, sleeve off to the side with your arm fully extended she will target that till the last second, then she will vere in to hit the helper center mass with her body. She will still get the bite, But this making catching her extremely diffcult even for good helpers...Bert Aerts, Peter Vertachant (sp?) whom both have worked multiple world championships commented on how diffcult she can be to catch. Her last 2 trials have both been on regional level helpers...both got knocked on thier arse's. The 2 nd one as he was going down did not let go of the sleeve, and after looking at the pics of the long bite, I am suprised she did not get seriously injured. The problem gets worse when helpers try to anticpate and start to spin early, as in early I mean before she makes contact...if the helper can stay put till she makes contact things go good. But most helpers thinking of being safe, and doing a nice catch...try to move one second early.
> 
> I have tried throwing the pillow or tug at the last second to try and make her keep her focus on the object to be bit. I have turned around with the sleeve to one side, with (I know this sounds gay) but with the helpers ass in the way if she decided to vere, so she will hit it, with little damage to the helper and making not so enjoyable for her to hit. this will work by the third one, but she always reverts back to her old flight pattern. I have tried the jump over an object to get her to jump.. I have tried having the helper back up at the last moment, to get her to jump. Some of these things do work. But what now seems to be the problem is that with all the runway required for a 3, the more room she has, the more wound up she gets and the less she thinks. My last ditch attempt to keep her safe, is ignoring the judge to send her and wait till the helper gets a bit closer. I have had some luck with moving the sleeve vertically, that is, presenting the sleeve about chin level, she will jump then...problem is most helpers hold the sleeve low in a trial. So when she sees this she does not jump. And in the last trial the helper did not present the sleeve until the final 8 feet or so this made the problem worse on that particular catch...
> 
> ...


James,

It sounds like you have a submariner? There are more and more upper body ring dogs. The old school of thought was, only a leg dog could be good at ring because it was so easy to esquive a high flying upper body dog. Now there are upper body dogs that are trained to NOT commit to the bite until they were much closer and come up like a Submarine.
It sounds like your girl does this naturally (genetically)?

Anyway, probably the best thing would be to only work her
on decoys that catch the dog first and don't anticipate? That
isn't likely to happen, so like others have said, do a lot of shorter sends. I'd get some sections of 2 foot tall fencing and have her jump over these for a bite. I think a meter jump is too high. You might try some call offs too. Maybe if she thinks there might be a call off she'll slow down a little?
Instead of holding the sleeve/tug off to the side, try something I saw on the latest Ivan Balabanov DVD. Hold the tug in front of you and then when she gets closer you step to the side (pivot on one leg) this is supposed to keep the dog centered on recalls, but it sounds like it would work for this too.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You should be doing ring with that dog. Maybe you are starting to figure out that there really is a reason that Mals should do ring.

HA HA


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff, I agree with you here. In this sense the sport of SchH is an absolutley all wrong for the Malinois. And Jeff, I would love to do ring...But I have a few reservations. One resources and me moving every few years makes doing SchH diffcult. I would suspect ring would be even harder. The next is because I would just like to finish what I have started here. and the final one, I would have to look at you from time to time 

And she does submarine. I will give shorter distances a try again. But the problem arises when she has the entire field to run, this causes her to build more and more drive. I also have tried the jumping of the object...at first she just ran into it, at any distance. Then she started to jump...we did this for a long, long time. The minute the obstruction was moved...she went right back to her old flight path. maybe if we go back to it, and then used something like bungee that was a little harder to see...so she would think it's there every time.

Or maybe if I put jump on command and start to command her on every bite to jump a few feet from the decoy? this would probably take hell of alot of work, but again the dog may end up maiming herself if I do not do something.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Can't say I disagree with jeff .. i know i know :roll:

I would use a jump, and have before. Start it from a short distance and at a slower pace, have the helper stand a couple steps behind it. By the time she is over the tunnel, she is committed, and the helper can adjust accordingly. It would take a couple of repetitions, but eventually she should get the idea. As she gets better at it, move her further back and have the helper step back a bit as well. 

Another very important note is to never ever have your helper bail on her (esquive). This would promote her to wait until the last second to hit a target, which is probably going to be center mass. You will not have the "launch" you are looking for, and it would make it awkward for the helper to judge her.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

I think I remember seeing those pics. Wow.
Does she target the toy fine when you present it to the side during play?

Maybe her intentions are a bit more serious than coming in to grab the booty from the helper. 

I've seen this on a few dogs as well. Either they won't commit early or they change at the last second. My dog used to do this too. After some barrier bite sessions and having really high presentations that seemed to help.

Best of luck to you,
Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just so you know you are not alone, on my 40th birthday I was working the whistle recall for the first time. I was holding a long tug to the side and he went dead center and took me out. He covered the 40 yards or so in about 2 seconds and hit me in the quad with his head....I think. I got a free limp for about 3 weeks. I had not caught him from a distance yet, I still have to kick my leg back as he still goes center. LOL

You are too far away from me to have to look at me. I am too poor to be going that far away.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Forgot to mention, I understand what you mean about fine with the barrier, but then goes back to her same pattern once it is removed.

This point was brought up to us at one of the last seminars, Sometimes the barrier bite helps because the dog can't see the feet or lower body move. So once the barrier is gone... you're back to square one.

eeeee

I think you can practice all you want, but again like you mentioned; you have no control over it in a trial situation..

Hope other ppl have more suggestions, as this would be very valuable info.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Hi james,

The only thing I can add is to cover the legs/feet of the helper visually. I have seen this done with ring dogs during the initial training to upper body bites to block the dog from going down. 

Use a sheet and two people holding it up right in front of the helper on either side. They should be far enough away to not interfere with the helper or dog. The sheet should cover from mid waist to the ground, so the dog can not see the legs or feet of the helper, only the sleeve. I would start close in and then build distance from there.

But honestly the minute the sheet comes down the dog will revert back to watching feet, because she is 4 years old and it is a habit now. Or it may work if it is always done and becomes a habit, however you would only get one or two good efforts without the sheet then the dog would revert back.

Are you able to warn the decoys at all about the issue?

Tamara McIntosh


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You would have had to started that as soon as you saw the problem and worked only with the barrier long enough to condition that response. Even then I would say it's a maybe. There just are no absolutes.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> Hi james,
> 
> The only thing I can add is to cover the legs/feet of the helper visually. I have seen this done with ring dogs during the initial training to upper body bites to block the dog from going down.
> 
> ...


In training yes, I absolutley tell the helper what I would like...In a trial though, It seems if I bring it up...now the dog is in thier head so to speak. It's almost better that they do not know.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

The trainer that helped me has seen this problem most often with Mals he said it learned by sleeve presentation across the body witch is all but one bite. From early foundation line work with rags and sausages the reward comes frontal and center mass from the helper teaching the dog to center on the man.
You mentioned you used a pillow held off to the side so did we at first it dident matter he still came in center of the helper after many reps my dog started going after the pillow rather than center of the helper.
It took several sessions of 10 or more reps befor he started targeting the pillow being held out left or rite still the first 1 or 2 reps he still may fly at the man rather than the pillow.
I bet my dog has done deep into a 100 of these he has learned to target the sleeve its self rather than throw himself at the helper and expect the sleeve to be waiting there for him. 
Just thought I would expand a bit because it worked for me the guy who showed me this trains with Ivan and Ivan trains with him for what that worth.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You can hold the pillow out to the side with Buko, and he will eventually bite you in the chest. Not a lot of fun.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You can hold the pillow out to the side with Buko, and he will eventually bite you in the chest. Not a lot of fun.


I thought this would be grounds for a broken neck in the Oehlsen house.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You can hold the pillow out to the side with Buko, and he will eventually bite you in the chest. Not a lot of fun.


 Schutzhund helpers have scratch pants and a sleeve a shot to the chest could send a helper to the hospital.
I did a bit of jacket work/playing when Jett when he was about a 1 1/2 old to take a little peek inside and see what might be in there :mrgreen: and to recheck the work done on him making sure he wasent opposed to taking a shot on the man. With out any hesitation from Jett the helper James Laney did go home with some ugly upper body purple marks and a smile.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I thought this would be grounds for a broken neck in the Oehlsen house.

There are places you can go to get help with your reading comprehension. I suggest you do so, and refrain from posting dumb shit until you can get your comprehension up to par.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

i read the original post, but did not read all of the replies, so if i suggest something that has already been mentioned just ignore me.
I would try this: (I am sure Jeff will have some fun with this one)
Take an old couch......or a new couch would also work I guess. Set the couch on the field turned around so the back of the couch faces the dog, have the decoy stand on the seat of the couch. This will raise the sleeve about 2 ' higher than normal and will also give the dog a barrier that it has to jump as well. The couch will provide a little more cushion if there is a train wreck than any other barrier will provide. this will also make the decoy stand in there longer and not bail out on her, because if he bails, he will fall off the couch seat.
I have used this at it does work,(no matter what Jeff will tell you) but it will take a while for her to get it. it took her 4 years to perfect this problem, it will not go away overnight.
Just my thoughts.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So the dog centers 2 feet higher and knocks the guy off the couch. Big win big fun. Sounds like a great idea. 

You were right.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

trust me....it will work. it works better if you use a fine Italian leather sectional couch.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I thought this would be grounds for a broken neck in the Oehlsen house.
> 
> There are places you can go to get help with your reading comprehension. I suggest you do so, and refrain from posting dumb shit until you can get your comprehension up to par.


 
And theres a bottle of Midol on the top shelf of your medicine cabinet. Maybe you can take 2 before you get your panties in a wad. It was a joke ****.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

***, what do you think I was doing ?? Being serious ?? Let me get some of your midol, I know you keep plenty around.

HA HA


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ***, what do you think I was doing ?? Being serious ?? Let me get some of your midol, I know you keep plenty around.
> 
> HA HA


Actually I thought you were being serious....But why would ask for Midol? Seems like your opening yourself up for a good joke and losing your touch jeff.... and how I love your touch.


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## Bill Whatley (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You should be doing ring with that dog. Maybe you are starting to figure out that there really is a reason that Mals should do ring.
> 
> HA HA


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Actually I thought you were being serious....But why would ask for Midol? Seems like your opening yourself up for a good joke and losing your touch jeff.... and how I love your touch.


James

"and how I love your touch" ?

Talk about opening yourself up for a good joke.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> James
> 
> "and how I love your touch" ?
> 
> Talk about opening yourself up for a good joke.


 
It wasn't a Joke Thomas...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Purely a question for the uninitiated (me); what is considered a long bite. I'm assuming it's distance, not time. 

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's the last (and most spectacular) biting phase in Schutzhund trials. The dog is sent, nearly the length of the field at the command of the judge, with the helper running up towards him. A lot of dogs fly in to the arm without hesitation and with a lot of pressure.

So yes, long is distance.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Purely a question for the uninitiated (me); what is considered a long bite. I'm assuming it's distance, not time.
> 
> DFrost


AKA the courage test. It' called the long bite for most dogs, because of distance. but for some Rottweilers or bull dogs it can get to be time related.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

James, the gayness of that last response has left me a little hesitant to respond. Midol works like a charm. Three a days were killing me, and I couldn't get enough water and was cramping. My GF gave me some and I can say it was a godsend.


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