# Babies and working line dogs



## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Going to be having kid sometime.. My Bouve pup is now 7 months at 80 lbs. He likes me, wife, my mom and he tolerates our decoy(decoy boarded him for a weekend, so he gets along ok with him now). I'll be honest and say I'm a little worried about bringing in a baby. So any recommendations on how you have gone about this and given that he is not very social (even though he has been socialized more than any dog I have). I've read stuff, but want opinions from working dog type people.

I would hate to have to put the kid up for adoption.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

With a new born baby and having working dogs it gets a little tricky and needs to be looked at on a dog to dog basis. Some are great with kids some are not.

We have pups and adults here all Dutchies and occasionally Malis. My son is 3.5 years old now. When we brought my son home my wife would lay on the couch with him and I would have the dog on his collar leashed. 

At first we would keep the distance but in the same room just letting the dogs get use to the fact of a new little one living in there domain. Eventually letting them get closer and closer of course with a occasional correction from us until the point that they would be laying at the foot of the couch. As my son got older in duration and started to become mobile they would sniff him and the slightest prey drive kicked in we would correct them and redirect there minds. I know sounds kind of Ceasar Milan gay but it worked. 

Now hes three and half and he now knows how to behave more than most adults do around working dogs I know that sounds gay to but its true. We still don't let my son have a ball all anything round if there out in the house just as a precautionary device. 

They now except him for the most part and vice versa. Hes also alot of times there dog treat source so they kinda of seeing him coming and all go into a alert sit thinking there getting treats. Main thing though is to teach your kids not to run around the house wild screaming, thats not a good thing, it puts even the pups into prey mode. But all of this takes time. Good luck with everything. Hope it was some what helpful and clears up somethings for you.

Just remeber no matter how much you trust you dogs always keep in the bag of your head its a animal.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Kevin, 

I think the best advice I can give, which is what worked for Doug's daughter and her family with Taten (who is a month old now) would be: 

Teach the dog that the nursery is off limits, they are allowed to lay at the door but not enter that room. 

If you buy things for the baby (blankets, clothing, carseat ect....) allow the dog to check those things out. And leave them out so the dog gets used to them being there. 

Make sure the dog gets the attention, training and exercise he needs and try not to change his routine drastically but rather gradually. 

If the wife can, have her spend time with the dog, take him for walks together as she gets further along. 
Allow her to give the dog commands and feed him. That won't hurt your training with him at all. And it will teach the dog to respect her and what she expects of him. 

When the baby is here, before you bring your wife and the baby home, take a blanket for her and the baby to scent up and then take it home and allow the dog to sniff it and leave it lying around for the dog to get used to. I had Steph and Ajay do this two or three times throughout the 24hr period she was in the hospital. 

Once home, allow the dog to investigate things like the car seat, blankets, clothing and what not with the baby's scent on them. 

I would not banish the dog to a crate or outside when baby is around, but rather keep him on lead and let him be in the same room as baby. 
Allow him to sniff mom and baby with him on lead so that IF anything happens you are right there. 

Gradually done, it can be a good transition. You must teach the dog that the baby is ABOVE him in pack order, which is why you make the nursery off limits and when the baby is in the room, you make sure the dog is behaving and following your rules. 

The main thing NOT to do is punish the dog for wanting to investigate all the new things that you are going to be bringing in. Keeping it from him is only going to make him want to investigate more and this is where people run into issues. 

The transition with Taten went well.....although their dog is not a working line, he is a spoiled thing and now after a month he does not really want to interact and "see" the baby, but he does lay near the door of the nursery, bassinette, and the rocking chair when Steph is feeding Taten. He does not get excited when Taten cries of fusses and they make sure to give the dog as much time as they did before, just a different schedule. 

For the first week or so, when they fed the dog, they did so while one was holding him and the other got the food ready and fed. Not sure if this had anything to do with the transition as that is just how they did it. 

But Steph is no longer worried that the dog will do anything (and the dog does NOT like small children) and they know that as Taten grows and starts crawling and what not, they will have to teach him to respect the dog. 

The good thing with their dog is that he leaves a situation he does not like and goes to his crate. He will not act out towards kids unless he is pushed or cornered by unruly kids that don't listen to their parents or people that tell them to leave something alone.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Pretty much I concur with Carol info too. Something else to add to Carol's post is that you might want to put up a baby gate at your childs room to. Yes the dog can put its nose through it and yes the baby can stick there arem to it, yes the dog will probally jump over it. But it is your job to teach the dog to respect the visual deterence of it. All the things that I have mentioned including some of Carol's have worked vey well. I am speaking from experience and not just feeding you propaganda.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Thanks Harry, I did forget to mention baby gates, but should have. Those are your friend too....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I'm old school on this. Dog MUST be appropriate with baby/kid. Second, raise kid to be appropriate with dog. My son was a year old when we picked out Thor. We eliminated 1/2 the litter at 3 weeks based on response to him. Thor is the serious type--more civil/defense than prey. Around 6 months he had to be reminded of the pecking order between him and the kid. I also kept him home with me for a few days and had kid feeding him and walking holding the lead. Prior to that hubby took him to work with him every day. Thinking back this was a growth stage and probably a result of me not folling with him much because I wanted him to bond to hubby. It took one correction and me keeping him home with me and baby a couple of days to address the pecking order issue. Later as an adult, Thor always distinguished kids/babies from adults. He had no use for adult strangers but silly putty for a kid/baby. He went with me and kid to the playground at least weekly. We followed all the household rules cited above and for the first time, I didn't play bite games with a dog. When my son was born, I had two GSD bitches ages 6 & 9. I came home from the hospital and sat the carrier in the floor. Each of them sniffed and licked his ear and Ingrid took up residence/guard underneath the crib. There were never any issues. I never had kid and dog alone until he was about 3 ish and even then probably just a few minutes. Ingrid--GSD I swear thought she was his surrogate mother. There were times when I would leave for a few minutes to get something and tell her "watch the baby." She wouldn't allow anyone to pick him up except me or hubby unless I told her she had too.

The only dog I ever worried about is my 5 year old prey driven bouv bitch. Kid was 9 when I got her and she treated him like a ring sport decoy until I came across the muzzle at 12 weeks. Her hardness was scary. She just looked up at me with that quizzical look---what??? Never any problems after that. I had been trying for weeks with all sorts of warm and fuzzy stuff to convince her that she was not supposed to crouch and spring for an upper body bite when he entered a room. I do LOTS of socializing. Her prey switch turned on as a young dog when babies cried on the TV. I'd never seen this. I took her around lots of toddlers and she was fine on lead. I would never let her run loose with screaming kids in a back yard, even till this day. I've seen her ears prick up in prey in the park when little kids run by screaming. She knows she's not supposed to respond but its still there. 

At 7 months, you should have a feel for how he sees kids. If he is who I'm thinking of, I'd suggest talking to Howard about the sire and dam and how they are. Regardless, a seven month old, I have out and about to different places on a weekly basis so they can encounter all walks of life including kids and babies. Like suggested above, I'd have your wife handle him a lot and spend lots of time with him. I used to swear that Ingrid and Tasha knew I was carrying my son or at least had a feel for it--espeically Ingrid. 

Terrasita


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Now that's some good info! Thank you.

GloK's pappy Howard's male Rock would prolly eat kids!

I'm hoping he matures and there will be no problems. I think he is what he is, a confident bully civil A-hole but very lovey with those he likes.


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## Kevin Cramer (Jan 26, 2008)

Kevin,

I don't have experience bringing home a baby with a dog. I've attached a video of my now two year old daughter and 1.5 year old Mali. I think I got the dog when my daughter was 11 months. I'm sure I did plenty wrong but I've always worked on control with the dog and I think this is a good video to show that.

It's funny, I marker train my dog and my daughter started to to use the dogs release before she throws a piece of food or toy. 

Congrats on the baby. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubKB8uV3hd8


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I brought home a baby with a working dog in the house. Actually 2 babies and 4 dogs . I was concerned about bites and what not. I kept the dogs gated off in a room of the house so they could see, smell and hear the kid crying and being a baby. so when the kid did cry, the dogs got to eat. Baby crying meant food was coming. Not go and bite, when ever I saw any reaction in the dogs to the kid, I diverted them with food. if the kid got by the gate, I through food into the back of the room. then got the kid. when the baby would come close, the dogs ran to the back of the room....after a week or so, something magical happened. The dogs started to view the kid as nothing more than a piece of furniture....completely uninterested the kid. One of my dogs has become the kids pet....the most gentle one. 

The biggest problem my kids have with the dogs is getting run over....I guess that's part of being a dog who views children as nothing more a piece of furniture.

I also prepped the dogs, by going to the park....I even pulled up videos of babies crying on you tube and feed the dogs while playing them. I am not a believer in the hope and pray method. Introducing a child to a dog that has never lived with a baby needs to be prepared and guided on how to act around the baby. I never corrected or scolded the dogs for any unwanted behaviors they may done in response to the child. I figure the dogs can associate pain with the presents of a child and may soon think that a simple to avoid pain is to simply get rid of the kid.

I would do whatever you think is going to create positive associations. baby cries, dog eats. Baby crawls, dog comes to you for a game of tug.

And there are simple rules that help....dogs are not present when child eats. 

Now my oldest is 4 and helps me train.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I will add that much depends on the individual dog. Most can learn to get along with the kids/family but some will always be to much, one way or the other. 
Both my GSDs get along great with the grandkids but the younger one is very excitable and it can look like bowling for babies if I'm not careful.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Remember the vids you put up where you were encouraging the dog to be an ass as a pup ?? All comin back to bite you now. 

Just call Ceasar.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I would sell the kid and get another Bouv...they are nicer in pairs!!!;-)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I brief all handlers not to allow small children to interact with the dogs without strict adult supervision. The dogs are picked because of their high drive. they are picked with due deliberation. None-the-less, they are dogs. Dogs have 42 teeth and a different way expressing when they are fed up with an annoying child. ha ha. With dual purpose, they sign a letter stating they understand the potential dangers of a large, high drive dog and will take appropriate caution.

DFrost


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I brief all handlers not to allow small children to interact with the dogs without strict adult supervision. The dogs are picked because of their high drive. they are picked with due deliberation. None-the-less, they are dogs. Dogs have 42 teeth and a different way expressing when they are fed up with an annoying child. ha ha. With dual purpose, they sign a letter stating they understand the potential dangers of a large, high drive dog and will take appropriate caution.
> 
> DFrost


Sage advice for anyone with a working dog  More so with a PSD.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I will add that much depends on the individual dog. Most can learn to get along with the kids/family but some will always be to much, one way or the other.
> Both my GSDs get along great with the grandkids but the younger one is very excitable and it can look like bowling for babies if I'm not careful.


I totally agree....

....bowling for babies is definitely an issue to be thought about. 




David Frost said:


> I brief all handlers not to allow small children to interact with the dogs without strict adult supervision. The dogs are picked because of their high drive. they are picked with due deliberation. None-the-less, they are dogs. Dogs have 42 teeth and a different way expressing when they are fed up with an annoying child. ha ha. With dual purpose, they sign a letter stating they understand the potential dangers of a large, high drive dog and will take appropriate caution.
> 
> DFrost


I think this is the most important statement in this thread. I was coming from having an infant and getting the dog used to the baby being in the house and becoming part of the "pack". 

I think it is highly important that children are taught to respect dogs early on. Nothing aggravates me more than a small child letting loose of his parents hand and running at the "pretty doggie"....and the parents are saying "be careful sweetie"......I know that my dogs get spun up and would jump on the child (except for the Dutch...he actually loves any size child) and scare the crap out of them, so I have to step in front, tell the kid to stop, which invariably pisses the parents off because I reprimanded their child......they don't realize I just avoided a situation where the child would probably be scared out of their wits......or possibly worse. 

And then, who's fault is it? UGH](*,)](*,)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Trooper [Bob's dog] is BIG and exuberent. If he wagged his tail, he could knock one over. Once you send him calming signals, he can chill out. He has this big happy, puppy play drive mentality. You could raise a baby around him and he'd just love it to death. David's PSDs have been selected for a purpose and its not the family pet so there is a warning and release. That's different. We are getting beyond breed specific temperaments and now have to consider purpose temperments [PPD, PSD, sport, etc.]. Once you start breeding them up in drives/reactivity [whatever the buzz word of the moment], they can be unreliable in certain situations. If you are breeding purpose dogs, maybe they should come with a warning such as what David refers to. Referring to a bouvier that would eat a kid is not funny. They are supposed to have judgment. But if its a purpose dog bred beyond that, then maybe it should have a warning/disclaimer. The rule in my house is if the dog isn't 100% reliable around the kid, it goes. Beyond basic manners for the dog and kid around each other and supervision through the toddler years, you shouldn't have to worry about it. 

The dog in question is only 7 months old. He's old enough to assess one way or the other and also *prepare *such as has already been suggested.

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't have kids, but I've done childcare for age 0 to 10 years at a local church for going on 8 years. I don't think anyone has mentioned teaching the dog to take treats nicely and teaching kids how to cup a treat with their hands so they don't get nipped. An underrated skill. :wink:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't have kids, but I've done childcare for age 0 to 10 years at a local church for going on 8 years. I don't think anyone has mentioned teaching the dog to take treats nicely and teaching kids how to cup a treat with their hands so they don't get nipped. An underrated skill. :wink:


yyeeeahhh....I don't let kids give treats. I have some grabbers and it is just not something I practice. But it is a good idea to teach kids that so that they know how.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> I brief all handlers not to allow small children to interact with the dogs without strict adult supervision. The dogs are picked because of their high drive. they are picked with due deliberation. None-the-less, they are dogs. Dogs have 42 teeth and a different way expressing when they are fed up with an annoying child. ha ha. With dual purpose, they sign a letter stating they understand the potential dangers of a large, high drive dog and will take appropriate caution.
> 
> DFrost


 David these DARE dogs aren't real?! LOL
100% agree with you...drive matters and unsupervised kids and critters spells "issues."


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> yyeeeahhh....I don't let kids give treats. I have some grabbers and it is just not something I practice. But it is a good idea to teach kids that so that they know how.


I start my puppies out taking them to playgrounds and public places where I'll run into little people. Hadn't thought about it until this thread, but I've never had strange kids offering food to the dogs. Haven't really had grabbers that I can think of but wouldn't risk it. Even with my own kid, I remember letting him sit the bowl in the floor but he was fairly old and school age before feeding them from hand. They certainly loved high chair clean up though. My kid is now 15 and the younger siblings of his friends are all grown up and not much value so with my next dog, its back to visiting playgrounds. 

Terrasita


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't think anyone has mentioned teaching the dog to take treats nicely and teaching kids how to cup a treat with their hands so they don't get nipped. An underrated skill. :wink:


You should have posted this years ago. Because you didn't, I no longer have index fingers. :^o:mrgreen:


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I will add that much depends on the individual dog.


I think Bob hit the nail on the head. It's really about knowing YOUR dog, but don't assume the worst can't happen.

My son (now nearly 7) began crawling and, with me watching like an EAGLE, began to crawl on my dog, Jake. Jake emitted a low-level growl and I INSTANTANEOUSLY gave Jake a very strong verbal admonishment and sent him to his "place". A week or so later the exact same scenario repeated itself. After that we never had a problem. It's not that I would allow my son to crawl, grab the dogs, but I wanted to see what would happen and have a chance to get the message across to Jake. Again, I wouldn't allow my son to have free-reign with my dogs but, inevitably, we sometimes get distracted and sometimes take our eye off of our kids, dogs, etc. So, I wanted to have a mind-meld with Jake so that he knew that, no matter what, he was not allowed to display any aggression toward the baby. Jake is a very stable, trainable dog and so, with him, it worked. 

Now, I have a 2.5 year old bitch Czech GSD that is, shall we say, intolerant. :twisted: If kids are around she's put away. I know her and I know her threshold, and it takes very little to get an aggressive response from her and I would have NEVER allowed my baby to crawl on her. 

So, like Bob said, it's really about knowing your individual dog(s). I know my dogs and one is pretty trustworthy and the other I don't trust a bit. Good luck!


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I start my puppies out taking them to playgrounds and public places where I'll run into little people. Haven't really had grabbers that I can think of but wouldn't risk it.


I need to be able to control the environment and the interaction to insure that this experience is positive for my pup. So, depending on my dog, I might allow a child to pet the dog provided they do it my way. I watch them closely and if they're under 3, "guide" their petting, including putting my finger under theirs so that, if they "grasp", they'll grasp my finger and not my dog's hair. 

One day I saw a toddler grab some ladies poo-poo dog by its hair and the dog started yelping and the lady and the mother of the kid were trying to get the kid to let go while simultaneously trying to keep the kid from pulling any further on the dog's hair. #-o Needless to say...that's what one does NOT want to happen when they're "socializing" their pup/dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> I need to be able to control the environment and the interaction to insure that this experience is positive for my pup. So, depending on my dog, I might allow a child to pet the dog provided they do it my way. I watch them closely and if they're under 3, "guide" their petting, including putting my finger under theirs so that, if they "grasp", they'll grasp my finger and not my dog's hair.
> 
> One day I saw a toddler grab some ladies poo-poo dog by its hair and the dog started yelping and the lady and the mother of the kid were trying to get the kid to let go while simultaneously trying to keep the kid from pulling any further on the dog's hair. #-o Needless to say...that's what one does NOT want to happen when they're "socializing" their pup/dog.


The kids are allowed to pet and I say when and where. I control it 100% and that means always being in control of my dog's head/teeth. Again, as said, you have to know your dog. My personal dogs have to be absolutely reliable around my kid. That means if kid for some reason lost his head, dogs had to deal appropriately which means take it. Kid was never the run, shout, jump scream type so it was pretty easy. Kid learned from babyhood about touches and respecting the dog and I supervised him with the dogs until Age 5. There are stages and I watched the dogs through each one [crawl, walk/run, etc.]. Ingrid was no issue. Tasha I got at 3 and didn't trust as much but she never gave me reason to distrust her after the initial introduction. Teva, like Ingrid decided instantly that it was her job to guard the kid. If other people's children were visiting, dogs were with me under voice command or in their crates--house rule. I've never done loose dog in the yard with kid(s) without me out there with them. Bouvier prey drive amps outside in a way that I haven't seen with our other breeds, so Khira was especially watched outside. I can deal with a dog that itsn't the greatest with strangers. However, they have to be reliable with human folk in my house. 

Terrasita


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't have kids, but I've done childcare for age 0 to 10 years at a local church for going on 8 years. I don't think anyone has mentioned teaching the dog to take treats nicely and teaching kids how to cup a treat with their hands so they don't get nipped. An underrated skill. :wink:


I teach all puppies to take food gently from the mouth, while kneeling down on their level. Yes, I've had a few pierced lips from those dang puppy teeth. Once they understand the mouth brings good things it's rare to get nipped. I HATE being banged in the mouth. Grrr! Call me the human "pez dispenser" 

I don't have little kids but if I did I'd teach them and the dogs/pups too to be gentle. Mouth and/or hands.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> yyeeeahhh....I don't let kids give treats. I have some grabbers and it is just not something I practice. But it is a good idea to teach kids that so that they know how.


Both Mals have pretty high food drive and the Rottie has moderate food drive, so I just teach them the hand closes if they get grabby or mouthy and will open if they sit quietly, nudge politely, or lick gently instead. With Fawkes as a pup, I had to grit my teeth a few times as we were shaping this behavior, but he's much less nippy while still being drivey, if that makes sense. 

Our therapy dog club requires the dog be able to take a treat *very* gently, so we worked on this quite a bit with my two certified girls. When I take them on a visit, many kids in the children's hospital or seniors in the nursing home want to give them food of all sorts as treats, so I take some healthy treats along so they're not getting Oreo cookies, french fries, or McDonald's apple pies (all of which have been offered, among other things!). :lol: It's pretty easy if you just have the kids cup their hands like you'd feed a carrot or apple to a horse. I teach bite prevention presentations with Elsa the Rottie, so I also teach the kids this, which the kids love, of course. Elsa does too. ;-)


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Kevin Cramer said:


> Kevin,
> 
> I don't have experience bringing home a baby with a dog. I've attached a video of my now two year old daughter and 1.5 year old Mali. I think I got the dog when my daughter was 11 months. I'm sure I did plenty wrong but I've always worked on control with the dog and I think this is a good video to show that.
> 
> ...


That's a cute girl... She obviously doesn't take after you!:lol:


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Remember the vids you put up where you were encouraging the dog to be an ass as a pup ?? All comin back to bite you now.
> 
> Just call Ceasar.


LOL.. I wish it was that easy, cus then the dog would learn, down, stay, sit, don't crap in the house, don't chase the cat, do bite the decoy, do bark .... After only one time!


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Thanks to all... GloK will be almost 2 by time a rug rat gets here.

Kevin


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

kevin holford said:


> Thanks to all... GloK will be almost 2 by time a rug rat gets here.
> 
> Kevin


 Holford!!!!!!! You should have said that before 'cause my advise would change...get a pony saddle and start the GloK off right...modified carting!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :---)


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