# My bf's dog HATES me?



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

](*,) I can't figure this one out.

My bf has an adult male neutered golden retriever. Nice dog - a touch on the nervy side.

I moved in with my dogs in November. 

My bf's dog gets along with my dogs - they play fetch and wrestle together endlessly.

This golden hates me. I feed him. I play with him. He's totally fine then. If I have a training pouch and treats, he shuts down. If my bf is home, he runs and hides behind his chair. ](*,) If we're out in the yard with a toy and he thinks it is a game, no problem training him.

If he thinks I am trying to get him to do something - like if I'm trying the herd him from one room to another so I can wash the floor - he growls at me. He growls at me other times. He ALWAYS gets a firm crack on the snout from me or my bf. We do not tolerate it at all.

If it is me correcting him, he goes and sits down and shakes. :roll:

I'm totally fine with him being a one-person dog. I don't care to bond with this dog or train him or anything. I'd like the dog to not be miserable.

Ideas?


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Anne,

Some dogs are just weird. I have a GF who had a Mali. The dog hated her husband- it went on for 3 years until she finally rehomed the dog. I believe she even put a SchH11 on the dog.

She said everyday when her hubby came home from work he went Apesh!t. Barking/snarling etc. It was like she had to re-intorduce the dog at each meeting...... They ended up getting divorced so maybe the dog had a point. He never behaved that way with anyone else, and was rehomed with a nearby friend so she got to visit the dog often. He was always fine with her but the old ball and chain-never could even pet the dog. 

Julie


----------



## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> ](*,) I can't figure this one out.
> 
> My bf has an adult male neutered golden retriever. Nice dog - a touch on the nervy side.
> 
> ...


Punching the dog in the face for growling at you serves what purpose? And you are surprised at the dog's behavior because?


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Vin Chiu said:


> Punching the dog in the face for growling at you serves what purpose? And you are surprised at the dog's behavior because?


I don't have the luxury of keeping him on a choke collar and choking the living snot out of him when he shows aggression.

I WILL NOT tolerate aggression from a dog. Period.

You want me to give him cookies and tell him he is a good boy when he is aggressive? Maybe I should just stick my hand in his mouth. ](*,)


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> If he thinks I am trying to get him to do something - like if I'm trying the herd him from one room to another so I can wash the floor - he growls at me. He growls at me other times. He ALWAYS gets a firm crack on the snout from me or my bf. We do not tolerate it at all.


I see a couple of things right here. The dog growls at you because he's uneasy with you right? For what ever reson he doesn't trust you. So he growls. And then you close the distance and give him a good reason to not like you.

The other things it you give corrections in order to make the offending behavior less likely to happen again in the future right? And the dog still growls at you right? Then the corrections aren't working. If you were doing obedience and you were trying something that wasn't working you would try something else.

I'd say its time to either escalate the correction or try something other than physically correcting this behavior. To be clear, I'm not against corrections for dogs that growl. I just think if you are trying something and it doesn't work then you need to try something else.


----------



## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> You want me to give him cookies and tell him he is a good boy when he is aggressive? Maybe I should just stick my hand in his mouth. ](*,)



Wow... did I say anything about rewarding the dog? Don't be ridiculous.


----------



## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> ](*,) I can't figure this one out.
> 
> My bf has an adult male neutered golden retriever. Nice dog - a touch on the nervy side.
> 
> ...


First question that comes to mind is did the dog like you before you moved in? If so then something has transpired between the dog and you since your arrival. 

Personally I would quit messing with the dog and when the BF is gone dog should be in a crate or kennel run until his return. Because it's clear by his demeanor that the issue is based out of fear and for whatever reason is afraid you. I think it's unfair for you the source of the dog's fear to be correcting him as this just makes the problem worst by confirming his initial thought that you are someone to be wary of. When dealing with fear, corrections aren't usually the best method in fixing it. As the dog isn't thinking straight to begin with and the corrections may further hinder the learning process.

You mentioned not being interested in training the dog but these are your words "If we're out in the yard with a toy and he thinks it is a game, no problem training him."
I would play with him maybe but definitely would not be asking him for behaviors. Because frankly you just don't have that kind of relationship with him. But by playing with the dog no strings attached (work/training) you can begin to build or develop one.

Seriously until the problem with the dog can be resolved it would be best for all involved to just let the BF handle and take care of the dog whenever practical. JMT


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

My mother's rescue GSD was similar to your bf's Golden. If it was just hanging out, or in the kitchen playing the sit for a cookie game she was fine, but any hint of 'training' and she would bolt. Something in her tiny brain triggered a big reaction to that kind of pressure. 

As far as the growling - is it really necessary to punish it? Can you ignore it? Again, my limited experience, but my Mal growls at me when he gets crowded. From him, I see it as a stress reaction, not aggression, and while ignoring it hasn't stopped the behaviour, nor has it escalated. I'm pretty sure I could push him hard enough to make him bite me if I wanted to force the issue and maybe I'm not dealing with it correctly, but why go there if I don't need to?


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anne Vaini;192398...You want me to give him cookies and tell him he is a good boy when he is aggressive? Maybe I should just stick my hand in his mouth. said:


> (*,)


 Stick your head in there...nice trick!
Anne some dogs just have a thing for you or against you, go figure. I find if the voice changes, the attitude of the critter changes. I think dogs want to see a routine, you being the same 24/7, otherwise they have to refigure you out!

Give me homemade cookies and I'll be your "bestest" of friend!!! :^o


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

No snap judgements from across the pond but you know what they say:

You don't just "marry" someone you "marry" the whole family - dogs included!

I maybe wouldn't crate it - in my mind would tantamount to stalemate. I'd just completely ignore the dog. I found it the best way to get shy dogs to come to me. This is, if it is shy.

If all else fails, find another BF 

Good luck!


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Lynda Myers said:


> First question that comes to mind is did the dog like you before you moved in? If so then something has transpired between the dog and you since your arrival.


He didn't really care. Couldn't train him then either lol. I've trained him for disc and dock diving with no issue (offleash, outdoors). Obedience - HAH! NOT going to happen. He's pretty ambivalent about me - which is perfect. He minds if I call him to come inside, need him to sit or something. 

He has never done it outside. Only inside.

I just messed around with him a little bit. It is specifically putting my hand over his head, or a situation in which I have previously put my hand over his head (like leading him out of / into a room).

I can desensitize that, I guess.

I think it's a pack issue of sorts. I waltzed into his life and dethroned him. Sorta feel sorry for him...


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Stick your head in there...nice trick!
> Anne some dogs just have a thing for you or against you, go figure. I find if the voice changes, the attitude of the critter changes. I think dogs want to see a routine, you being the same 24/7, otherwise they have to refigure you out!
> 
> Give me homemade cookies and I'll be your "bestest" of friend!!! :^o


You're totally right about voice. If I use a "c'mere and play" voice he is SO outta there. If I use the "get your @ss over here now" voice he is fine. As long as I don't put my hand over his head...

You are probably right about consistency too, although there isn't anything I can do about it. I'm bipolar. I'm stable on medication now, but if I miss a dose, you don't know what you're going to get! My dogs have seen it all and are like "yeah whatever" and ignore me. Maybe it freaks this dog out?


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Anne writes:

he growls at me. He growls at me other times. He ALWAYS gets a firm crack on the snout from me or my bf. We do not tolerate it at all.


Could this be the source of the issue?! Hand over the head vs cracking him across the muzzle?!! Both require lifting of the hand.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I messed around with him some more. My dogs were getting in the way. I used my "do it now or else" voice with my dogs and they backed up an waited at the threshold. But bf's dog wouldn't come close to me after that. 

Before that he was doing really well with desensitizing him to my hand on his collar. But after that he growled when I came close to him. Worked on the desensitizing again and good to go for now.

My dog's name is "Dog" and bf calls his dog "Dog" a lot casually. Sometimes when I am firm with my dog, bf's dog will disappear or get edgy. Confusion I guess.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

For whatever reason, you have scared the living daylights outta this dog inside. Is there a missing fact of what happened between you indoors? What negative happened before when you put your hand over his head or on his collar or what happened to his neck while you were fooling with him. I don't know why you would "herd" a dog out of a room and what did it take to accomplish this. You turned him into prey and took up the role as predator and he's supposed to see you as positive? I say let the BF handle him, train him and just leave him alone for awhile.

T


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Seriously - pointing to the hallway and saying "go on" is a terrible thing to do?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Come on Anne. Does he know what you mean by point and saying "go on." How much body pressure did you use. You said herd. That means push or pressure otherwise. I can tell my dogs to back out of a room or go upstairs and never move a muscle. I can also send them to crates without moving toward them. In those cases its not a big deal. Somehow you put this dog into some sort of fear/defense mode. You indicate that you have some sort of episodes/behavior that your dogs understand and perhaps this one doesn't. You've said you "train" him. How? How did you teach him behaviors in response to commands. As Candy pointed to regarding the smacks on the muzzle for when he is scared of you [fear defense mode growls], how many collar corrections have you put on this dog?

I don't know if there is anything wrong with just leaving him alone. 

T


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maybe he is a good judge of character?:-o


----------



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Stick the dog out in the yard and ignore him for a couple of days, other than feeding and watering. Bring him back into the house and if he starts up again, he goes back outside. Try it for a week and see if works. Can't be any worse than beating him.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Clicker training. Indoors he won't do anything, totally freezes, so there is nothing to click and no training can be done. I tried clicker training outdoors once and trained him to go out and around a pole (begining of distance work). Dock diving and disc training is pretty simple - put the toy in the right place. If you don't like the behavior, don't reward. Do like the behavior, let the dog catch the toy and reward with a second throw or tug. He loves training disc with me. He gets the happy look on his face and goes charging full tilt for vaults. Pretty neat to watch - it's the most enthusiasm I get out of him.

I've never corrected the dog on a collar. The dogs are in the yard with underground fence. They get tons of exercise playing fetch and wrestling, and I'm tied down with a toddler, so not walking the dogs here. All off-leash. I have had him on a flexi-leash once or twice maybe. Just walking between the car and the dock. 

Sitting around tonight, I was lying on the couch and my dogs were laying by me. I was going to give bf's dog a spot on the couch. I say his name, he looks at me and goes behind bf's chair. WTF? Tried it a couple more times. I say his name and he is so outta there.

The nicer I am to this dog, the more weird he gets. I either restrain my dogs or send them after a different toy so bf's dog can play with the one he wants. Playing is bonding, right? Hmmmf. He has a sensitive stomach, but when I toss my dogs tidbits from the kitchen, I try to find something I can give him without making him sick.

He is outside most of the time. He comes and goes pretty much as he pleases. I let him in or out whenever he wants.

I might put him outside if he does it. I curbed the dogs barking at everything by sending them inside for a 1/2 hour or so every time they barked. So he would probably get the point that the behavior is unacceptbale and he is banished. Although, putting my hand on his collar and leading him outside is just asking for a bite and sounds like a bad idea.

It's not just me - he growls at my son too. My son is 3 and used to dogs he can lead around or send into another room. Bf's dog doesn't tolerate that. And * bf's dog has growled at bf for the exact same thing*. I just get it more because I am around the dog almost 24/7 and I have to interact with him more on a do-this-do-that basis. (go inside, go outside, quit barking, stand still so I can dry your feet off, go in the bathroom so you don't die of fright when I run the vacuum... normal stuff) 

The dog goes into fear/defense mode easily. Last night the dog food bag next to his food dish settled and made a little noise and he freaked and wouldn't go back to the food dish. He is afraid of putting his head under a chair to get his favorite toy (he is getting better about this). He is terrified of the vacuum. Fear/alert barking at the neighbors. He's a hackly dog!

My BP stuff ranges from excessive energy to deep depression. The dogs love the energy side because I play with them about constantly. The depression freaks out bf's dog, I think. My dog is trained to alert me to it, remind me to take medications, wake me up, apply deep pressure therapy, and some other things. The puppy does some of it too, just copying him but she doesn't know what she is doing yet.

I'm not evil and mean. ](*,) Just trying to figure out how to make the dog relax.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, I think the dog may be confused as to who you are. The only analogy I can think of is the day my brother showed up at the door after smoking pot. One of the ways she identified him was off. Looked like him but didn't smell like him. You saw the confusion. But because everything about him didn't say it was him, she wasn't going to let him in. As far as that dog is concerned you may be Jekyll/Hyde and he doesn't trust you. The dog may be afraid of kids. What was your interaction with him before you moved in? Has he ever bondd with anyone besides BF. I've seen truly genetic spooky dogs. They can't handle changes in the environment. If you compete with this dog, doesn't sound like a genetic spooky type. 

T


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> He has never done it outside. Only inside.
> 
> The dog goes into fear/defense mode easily. Last night the dog food bag next to his food dish settled and made a little noise and he freaked and wouldn't go back to the food dish. He is afraid of putting his head under a chair to get his favorite toy (he is getting better about this). He is terrified of the vacuum. Fear/alert barking at the neighbors. He's a hackly dog!


This newbie thinks you have totally shattered his feeling of secure (a dog that seems to be very insecure and not really 100% solid nerves) by not only moving in but trying to act like his boss in what he used to think was his and your bf's domain. Maybe try to be a friend first, build up the trust before you start working with him and correcting him when he appears to obviously be scared of you. I dont think you can clicker train fear of you out of him, I think it has to be an actual bonding thing...


----------



## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Clicker training. Indoors he won't do anything, totally freezes, so there is nothing to click and no training can be done. I tried clicker training outdoors once and trained him to go out and around a pole (begining of distance work). Dock diving and disc training is pretty simple - put the toy in the right place. If you don't like the behavior, don't reward. Do like the behavior, let the dog catch the toy and reward with a second throw or tug.
> 
> I've never corrected the dog on a collar. I have had him on a flexi-leash once or twice maybe. Just walking between the car and the dock. He respects verbal warning just fine. He did OK with a verbal warning on the pre-growl body language when I was desensitizing.
> 
> ...


Anne you are missing the whole thing the dog doesn't want to be bother! Hell he might just be anti-social or autistic. Not to mention you can not influence man or beast when they do not respect or in this case TRUST YOU! And from your above posts in the dog's mind you have given him ample reason not to trust you or your BF. The more I learn of this situation the more I think the best solution is to put the dog down. Because it's clear he's not happy and if your words be true his not mentally sound either. So the kindest thing would to humanely destroy him rather then to continue physically correcting ( by hitting) him. Which isn't working and actually is probably making him worst. How would you like it if every time you went into one of your episodes someone was smacking and mishandling you? Talking bout oh your gonna get over on this. It's the same difference, the dog might not be able to control it any more then you can. And by him being a dog can't go to the doctor and say ya know doc something just isn't right yada, yada is there any kind of medicine out there that could help me deal.
Ya know I find it really hard to believe that you as a dog trainer are just now recognizing the dog's issues. Ideally these should have been identified and addressed before you moved in, especially WITH A YOUNG CHILD!

I feel that until a decision is made on what's to be done with him I would just leave to dog utter alone.

Just my opinion and like assholes everyone has one!:razz:


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> Sitting around tonight, I was lying on the couch and my dogs were laying by me. I was going to give bf's dog a spot on the couch. I say his name, he looks at me and goes behind bf's chair. WTF?


wouldnt this be a typical sign of fear where he looks for the protection of your bf from you? If your bf iis also correcting him when he growls at you/reacts unfavorably to you, I can see how his behaviour can only escalate in a negative direction. I am thinking when you called him he thought you will correct him if he doesnt do something right so he freaked...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, there are some obvious pack issues with that gesture but one thing for sure, you can't MAKE this dog like you. From the dog's point of view you called him into your physical space and your elevated pack's. He acted like his life was at stake. Who knows what vibes your dogs were giving off. As for the human child, your comments in the past were that you only had client dogs and you didn't allow them within the child's bubble. Given this dog's fear/defense mode, I certainly wouldn't allow interaction with the baby. 

T


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I maybe missed it, but what's your boyfriend's opinion of all of this?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I still think the best thing would be to ignore the dog and crate if he can't be supervised (young child, etc.) but one thing is niggling my mind and that is that your dogs are a pack and it might not only be you but have you watched your own dogs' reactions to it? There are such slight "grimaces" that dogs make that humans don't always notice. Even if they're not doing this, they and you are a force to be reckoned with. 

My parents had 2 JRTs and the bitch attached herself to me wholly until I left home when she was still a pup. Whenever I went home on holiday, she attached herself to me again. My Dad then came over here to live with us and brought her (12 yrs). We had a Newfoundland by this time that was 100% mine and she was suddenly no longer "my dog" even though the Newf accepted her.

As for making a spot for her on the couch - this in my mind is like asking it to jump into the proverbial "Lions' Den".

I've always enjoyed reading your posts but here I wonder if you, faced with a situation that's new to you, are reacting like a "rejected woman" and not thinking caninewise at all. I don't suppose your dogs are making advances or challenging it are they?


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I maybe missed it, but what's your boyfriend's opinion of all of this?


He thinks the dog is "jealous" and "holding a grudge." Because between me and my dogs, he has to compete for toys, attention and lost his spot on the couch - and usually doesn't even get his old dog bed because my dogs like it best. He doesn't lay on the couch for hours curled up and watching tv with bf anymore. He doesn't even get to go out fishing without having another dog (and me and my son) along with. He doesn't get to go hiking with bf anymore.

My adult dog IS the dominant dog here. My dog goes up to bf's dog. They sniff noses and my dog's tail goes straight up in the air and bf's tail drops. The puppy harasses him and tries to steal away his toys when they are playing fetch. My dogs can run faster than him. My dogs are pretty good at harassing him.

bf thinks it is a little funny, and not worried about it. Thinks the dog will get used to it sooner or later. 

I have been clicker-training the dog to touch its nose to my hand for over a year. It is just *finally* starting to cooperate, IF I am standing next to the food bin. :roll: I was training the dog for 6 months before I moved in. He was generally non-responsive the same as now. 

The growling thing didn't start until a couple months after I moved in. The first time was when I was vacuuming and shooed him out of the room I was vacuuming in. (He is terrified of the vacuum). The next times were me telling him to get off the couch so I could sit down. 

Not sure if it matters - I have had 4 or 5 dogs (2 at a time) here over the last 6 months. I own 4 dogs, but only 2 live with me. One of the dogs was here for about 2 months - the little pit bull bitch. She would attack bf's dog without warning him - about once every 3 days. bf's dog was never injured, but probably didn't help the stress level much.

I have no intention or desire to bond with bf's dog. :-#

Gillian - you are right. I'm frustrated!

Sanda - never called him to me and corrected him. Doesn't make sense. Sending him away the issue.

Lynda - yes I have been in that situation. I've been quite aware for a long time. Just getting frustrated about it and looking for ideas of something I can DO. Even before I moved in if i was alone with the dogs he'd give me suspicious body language and I was telling bf that I thought the dog WOULD actually bite me. Still think he would. I got a pretty bad dog bite on my hand a year ago - since then I've been leary of aggressive dogs. bf's dog can see that. I can't train aggressive dogs anymore. Lost my mojo.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLGe0DJu0FM

Unfortunately the camera angle doesn't show this: When I put my hand over his head, he looks away nervous in avoidance. I get him to look at me relaxed and reward that. He does growl twice in the video.

Watch and see how evil I am. :roll:

Shortly before this I was trying to get me dog to stay on the couch while I worked with bf's dog. bf's dog freaked out. I would tell my dog firmly to go lie down, and bf's dog would go to the front door and lie down shaking. I had my back to bf's dog, but apparently he still thinks I am talking to him.

With multiple dogs, I say the dog's name before the command. But because my dog's name is "Dog" and bf has always called his dog "dog" before commands, bf's dog is crazy confused.


----------



## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> He thinks the dog is "jealous" and "holding a grudge." Because between me and my dogs, he has to compete for toys, attention and lost his spot on the couch - and usually doesn't even get his old dog bed because my dogs like it best. He doesn't lay on the couch for hours curled up and watching tv with bf anymore. He doesn't even get to go out fishing without having another dog (and me and my son) along with. He doesn't get to go hiking with bf anymore.
> 
> My adult dog IS the dominant dog here. My dog goes up to bf's dog. They sniff noses and my dog's tail goes straight up in the air and bf's tail drops. The puppy harasses him and tries to steal away his toys when they are playing fetch. My dogs can run faster than him. My dogs are pretty good at harassing him.
> 
> ...



8-[8-[Do you even read what you write? Seriously!! After reading it word for word you really don't know whats wrong with the dog.? Come on! Put the dog down that's the kindest thing you may ever do for the dog. 
After reading the above post all I can do is shake my head. I have lost virtually all respect for you as a dog person and trainer. You have singlehandedly turned a poor's dog life into a living hell and if that weren't enough told him he damn well better like it. The mentally, emotionally and physical cruelty you are subjecting the dog to is down right criminal.
I"m done!!! POOF!


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Lynda Myers said:


> 8-[8-[Do you even read what you write? Seriously!! After reading it word for word you really don't know whats wrong with the dog.? Come on! Put the dog down that's the kindest thing you may ever do for the dog.
> After reading the above post all I can do is shake my head. I have lost virtually all respect for you as a dog person and trainer. You have singlehandedly turned a poor's dog life into a living hell and if that weren't enough told him he damn well better like it. The mentally, emotionally and physical cruelty you are subjecting the dog to is down right criminal.
> I"m done!!! POOF!


 
Whatever. Clearly you watched the video of me "torturing" the dog. :roll: ](*,) Because petting and giving treats is criminal. Seriously, watch the d*mn video.


----------



## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I've had success with this type of dog by keeping a 2m line on it. 
Take the emphasis away from asking / telling dog to move - just silently grab the line at the end and place him in the other room before rewarding.

I would start ignoring the dog - perhaps keeping him tethered to you but ignoring. If he growls at you encroaching on his space, his space is now yours.

Give him a kennel or crate / bed that is his, no other dogs get to go in. If he goes there no one bothers him. Maybe get the BF to take him out and have some 1 on 1 time now & then.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If this is clicker then I can't see what it's doing for the dog. Why do you insist on the wish to touch him.

Why not sit down in the same room as the dog (all other dogs removed) and offer it a biscuit. If it comes to take it from your hand, I'd say it's a big step forward - the dog is coming to you. If it doesn't then have patience until it does. Maybe it never will. Is this a big problem?

As I see it, you're forcing your attentions on a dog that doesn't seem to want them. On the contrary, is, from what you say, completely stressed out by the whole situation and you're merely adding coals to the fire.

And if it's scared stiff of the vacuum cleaner, why did you have to shoo it out - the open door would have sufficed, or not?

I'm sorry it's turning out like it is but like most of us have said, the best thing is to ignore it until it accepts you. You'll probably make far more progress if you do.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Why not sit down in the same room as the dog (all other dogs removed) and offer it a biscuit. If it comes to take it from your hand, I'd say it's a big step forward - the dog is coming to you.


He comes to me when I call him or when I have a food or toy. Coming to me is not the issue. Leading him and putting my hand over his head is the issue. Not all the time - just sometimes.

Reminds me of a client's dog. She bit people (vet techs, owner) that tried to touch her feet, but if she was curled up on the couch cuddling with her owner, THEN the owner could touch her feet. They used to have to take her to the vet and have her under anethesia in order to clip her nails. I did the clicker training thing, and within the first 20 min. session, I could handle her paw. The owners had good results too. I trimmed the dog's nails for a year, until the owners could do it at home. 

Clicker training a dog to accept handling works. The dog interacts with me just fine - on his terms. If I can't cajole him into what I need him to do, I need to be able to handle him.

ETA: He has absolutely no problem if we are playing disc in the yard and I put my hand over his head before throwing the disc. No reaction at all. Training with treats outside gets the same reaction as training with treats inside.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

When you say "leading him" do you mean putting the lead on? 

I still can't get why you have to put your hand over his head? A lot of dogs don't like this just as much as small dogs don't always like people bending over them.

Now it sounds as though the issues are less. I hope so, especially for the dog. Can't you restrict your actions with the dog to those that don't create an issue? After all, there is the elusive BF :-k


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I think Gillian has given the best advice yet on this . 

I get what you were trying to do in the video and it was a good attempt to solve the problem but as things went on it just appearred so forced . 

The dog wanted the food enough and would put up with what YOU wanted to get it , to a point . 

As for the growling until you get a bond with this dog I would just not react at all to it . I know it's tough and as a general rule I usually don't say that but for this situation it may be the best thing . My current K9 partner is a growler since the day I got him at 2 years old . I initially tried to solve it much like you did in the video along with alot of other things to build his trust . He would have none of it . He has a lot of dominant behaviors but short of wooping his butt to the point he probably wouldn't be a good working Police Dog , I ignored it . I relaxed and just started training him for the usual stuff in PSD work if he growled , no reaction from me as long as he did what I asked him to do . 

He's still a growler to this day but a good Police Dog . Scores high in anything OB related but still growls . Don't get me wrong the growling still bugs the crap out of me from a personal standpoint because I want him to like me and a dog training standpoint where it's still engrained in my head that a dog shouldn't growl at me and MUST be dealt with . Sometimes either situational (yours) or more dependant on the individual dog's makeup (mine) , growling should be ignored or dealt with at another time . 

Until you get a bond work with your boyfriend to minimize you being put in a situation were you have to make the dog do something . Just be patient , let the dog come to you and let it realize , on it's own , that it is good to be around you . 

Also be prepared that the degree of bonding may not be what you would want . With my partner we aren't buddies (it does bug me but I have to live with it) . He's all about work eating or retreiving . If we aren't doing any of that he wants nothing to do with me . If *I* do want to pet him he just growls . I ignore it and pet him anyways but don't push it (for his sake) because I'm only petting him because I want to (selfish reasons) and keep it short. However , after 8 years he now will want me to pet him while driving in the squad . Finally and I'll take what I can get . 

Anyways , long winded way of saying I think you should give Gillian's advice a try , be patient , don't take it personal or set your expectations to high . I hope it helps . 

Good Luck .


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2010)

If you have any interest in this dog's well being I would suggest you contact either a Veterinary Behaviorist, CAAB or a certified Animal Behavior Consultant/ Tech. This dog's situation is truly unfortunate and what you have written and shown via video indicates that you need professional assistance.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Whatever. I ignored it for months and it got worse. Started this morning training it every 1/2 hour. It isn't noon yet and I can lead him by the collar around the house. Take him by the collar and/or pet him on top of the head normally - not in a desensitizing way. The dog is relaxed - not turning his head away or looking away anymore. It will take a lot more repetition, but we're over the hump, so to speak.

Thanks Gillian and Jim.  Leading I usually mean taking by the collar and guide the dog where I want it to go - not pulling on it. Just my hand on the collar the dog walking with me at heel. Issues have been during the day while bf was gone, very occassionally when bf was home - that was more the couch issues, which the dog is over now.. Don't really care about bonding - just want him to chill out and relax.

ETA: 2,000 posts! Neato.  only took 3 years. :lol:


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2010)

I'm glad you feel you are making progress. I hope you keep your daughter safe. Although I have to say, your hostility is really unnecessary and misdirected and perhaps that is part of the problem you are having with the dog as well.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Just had a random thought...do you always reward him with food by tossing the food to him? Since you want to reinforce a calm state of mind, perhaps just offering a high value food item in your cupped hand after the marker to take might make a small difference.


----------



## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

I would also like to know what you are doing with your eyes when rewarding this dog? Might not be your hand at all that bothers him...might be the sustained eye contact if you are staring at him. Try it again and refuse to look at his face...look at his front feet.

I would also be feeding treats from hand...not just the energy thing...but with that you get more frequent rewards .


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Just had a random thought...do you always reward him with food by tossing the food to him? Since you want to reinforce a calm state of mind, perhaps just offering a high value food item in your cupped hand after the marker to take might make a small difference.


Yup - we'll get there. Trying not to put pressure on him, so tossing the food. Just easy to start. I have some time this evening to work with him and will see how far I get. My dogs show more food drive when the treat is tossed. I'm not sure if it is the same for bf's dog - but thought it was worth a shot.

This dog is gonna get chubby. :lol: I'm using Science Diet TD (his regular food) for treats. He has a sensitive stomach and he doesn't really care for some of the training treats that my dogs like. Maybe we'll find something else?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

When approaching shy or fearful dogs, even ones that are familiar, I wouldn't toss treats right at them if I'm trying to desensitize and counter condition. Like Mary mentioned, I like to use calming signals like looking away, standing sideways, not maintaining heavy eye contact, cupping the food in the hand and letting them take it almost from behind, sitting instead of standing, or even just dropping the piece of food on the ground so they can take it when they feel comfortable doing so. This may actually up the food drive since he'll hopefully be feeling less stress because it's less confrontational. Don't even know how many shy/sharp/fearful dogs I have had people say "no one can pet him the first time, but you could!" just by backing off on the body language and going super super slow. You've probably seen this article by Turid Rugaas, but just in case:

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

I'm at a partial retooling/retraining stage with one of my dogs right now to back off on his possession on a tug so he'll want to engage more with me, so I can understand the frustration of starting almost back from scratch. However, it may be necessary to just treat your BF's dog like a first session client dog who is on the shy/sharp side even if you've been living with him and working with him for months. I only say this because I'm about the worst at it, but you do seem almost uncharacteristically impatient with the dog (I always thought of you as being very patient!). :lol: So I guess I'd say try your best not to let your frustration show through. Half the time, I'm a mess during herding because my attitude is not good and the work suffers for it. We always can pick up in other trainers what we ourselves struggle with, right? ;-) And always remember that it's the difficult dogs that make us the best trainers, not the ones who make it look easy.


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

I dont understand something.... How will training this dog to tolerate petting and moving him around help to resolve this situation? Talking as someone who finds training challenging, wouldnt it just be easier to let him feel safe again? To me as a newbie in training, that would take very little time, dog would be happer, pack structure back to normal and it wouldnt take that long... I would stop allowing other dogs to attack him, would encourage him spending time with his owner, and would play with him by myself on regular basis so that he doesnt have to fight with other dogs for everything. I know you said you have no interest in bonding with this dog, but doesnt training him take more time than just playing around?

Sorry, this is really now to help me understand what traners think is trainable and what just requires some good old human-dog interaction...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLGe0DJu0FM
> 
> Unfortunately the camera angle doesn't show this: When I put my hand over his head, he looks away nervous in avoidance. I get him to look at me relaxed and reward that. He does growl twice in the video.
> 
> ...


 
Okay, aside from the fact you are voice correcting the dog with a clicker, two things to consider--1) in drive for food or the toy, he can tolerate you. Out of drive, terror. One of your post says it all. Your dogs have dominated him and attacked him. You terrorized him with a vacuum cleaner. He can even have his own pillow and his pack leader has abandoned him to the chaos or what you refer to as dethroning him. I two have to question your knowledge of dog pack behavior if you don't see how he would run in terror inviting him onto a couch with elevated others. I think Gillian rightfully referred to it as a lions den. To top it off, his pack leader and person thinks its funny and he'll just get used to it. Dogs aren't stupid and they know when they are liked disliked. You say you have no desire to bond with the dog. He knows it. You can toss all the cookies in the world but as long as you totally disregard him in all other aspects, my gut says the status quo will remain. The whole dethroning statement reeks of you intending that you and yours are going to be the only ultimate for the BF. Don't think flooding and desensitization always works. Sometimes it makes them worse. You paint the picture of a physically and mentally battered dog. Even battered women profess to love the batterers but it doesn't change the fact that they are emotionally and physically abused. 

How about studying some Bill Campbell where your dog pack is concerned and inject some equalization. Stop elevating your dogs over this one. If you must vacuum do it when he is outside. That BF of yours should step up to the plate and be there for this dog insted of sitting back and acquiescing in the cruel treatment. Above all screw the training and this idea that you HAVE to handle him. BF handled him and managed him before you came along. When BF leaves, he should put him in a crate in a quiet room where he can feel safe and away from you and your pack. Let this dog have some space that he can control and feel safe in.

If the two of you are incapable of creating an environment where this dog can have some sense of safety and quality of life, rehome him or put him out of his misery as Lynda suggests. 

Terrasita


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> I dont understand something.... How will training this dog to tolerate petting and moving him around help to resolve this situation? Talking as someone who finds training challenging, wouldnt it just be easier to let him feel safe again? To me as a newbie in training, that would take very little time, dog would be happer, pack structure back to normal and it wouldnt take that long... I would stop allowing other dogs to attack him, would encourage him spending time with his owner, and would play with him by myself on regular basis so that he doesnt have to fight with other dogs for everything. I know you said you have no interest in bonding with this dog, but doesnt training him take more time than just playing around?
> 
> Sorry, this is really now to help me understand what traners think is trainable and what just requires some good old human-dog interaction...


Sanda - the issue is that the dog is totally comfotable if interaction is on HIS terms. It is a pack issue. But given that I'm not willing/able to go all and I don't think it will make a significant improvement given the dog's temperament, it's easier to train the dog to accept handling that is not on his terms.

This explains why 1) the more I leave him alone, the worse he gets, and 2) the more I give him preferential treatment or try to please him, the worse he gets.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> You terrorized him with a vacuum cleaner.


WTH? No. I know the dog is afraid of the vacuum, so I send him OUT OF THE ROOM before vacuuming before I start. He has an issue with anything he doesn't want to do - including leaving the room.



> Stop elevating your dogs over this one.


Did you not read that I specifically give bf's dog preferential treatment to make sure he gets his share of play, fetch, etc.

Usually I totally respect your POV and posts, but seriously - read posts before you freak out. #-o


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Sanda - the issue is that the dog is totally comfotable if interaction is on HIS terms.


So was he like this with you even before you guys moved in? Also what do you mean by his terms? He would come when you have food but only sometimes? Its just that you mentioned few times that he is in a fearful/shaking mode very often... I am sure its a pack issue, but I think its more that he is scared of being eaten alive rather than wanting to be the boss of the household. 

Also, when you said you left it alone for a period of time... Do you mean you didnt interact with him at all during that time while allowing attacks and hassling by your dogs to continue? This would also of course have a detrimental effect. 
Could it be that he just wants you guys to show him that as pack leaders you will protect him no matter what? Maybe its that simple...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> He thinks the dog is "jealous" and "holding a grudge." Because between me and my dogs, he has to compete for toys, attention and lost his spot on the couch - and usually doesn't even get his old dog bed because my dogs like it best. He doesn't lay on the couch for hours curled up and watching tv with bf anymore. He doesn't even get to go out fishing without having another dog (and me and my son) along with. He doesn't get to go hiking with bf anymore.
> 
> My adult dog IS the dominant dog here. My dog goes up to bf's dog. They sniff noses and my dog's tail goes straight up in the air and bf's tail drops. The puppy harasses him and tries to steal away his toys when they are playing fetch. My dogs can run faster than him. My dogs are pretty good at harassing him.
> 
> ...


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

lol @ Maren. I'm an impatient trainer. I've learned how to work around it - small goals, short sessions. I get frustrated when I can't make a training schedule, so I talk it out here.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mary Buck said:


> I would also like to know what you are doing with your eyes when rewarding this dog? Might not be your hand at all that bothers him...might be the sustained eye contact if you are staring at him. Try it again and refuse to look at his face...look at his front feet.
> 
> I would also be feeding treats from hand...not just the energy thing...but with that you get more frequent rewards .


Its also what you exude from within. Some dogs can't be fooled with seething within yet uttering sweet nothings. It would help to see her and her body language in that video. But I also say playing kissy face with treats or the disc one minute and armed with the vacuum cleaner the next is not going to convince this dog that he is safe. 

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> WTH? No. I know the dog is afraid of the vacuum, so I send him OUT OF THE ROOM before vacuuming before I start. He has an issue with anything he doesn't want to do - including leaving the room.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Read your own posts. You said you were vacuuming. Kiss and make up isn't real effective with fearful dogs. They don't forget. Something bad happens and its there forever. You've adoped the deal with it attitude and doggie hasn't.

T


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If you approached my dog like that, hand all stiff and scared looking you would get your hand bitten for sure. 

Not sure WHY you would want to hold your hand like that over a dog anyway, or force the dog to accept it if he didn't like it, when you clearly don't like the dog or want to take the time to create a good trusting bond with it. 

This dog from your description has some pretty serious issues, nerves...whatever...OR IT ACTUALLY DOES HATE YOU.

The video posted does not have much to do with the overall problem being discussed, and frankly I do not see how the training being done is going to solve the real problem. 

I'd like to see a video of the dog's behavior without the treats, just him walking around the house and interacting with the other dogs and Anne in a normal living room setting, anne sitting on the couch, getting up, approaching him, walking around etc.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Congrats Terrasitta - you're the first person I've ever blocked. Unfortunately I posted in the conflict-free section so I can't say what I really think about your posts. I'd appreciate if you refrain from posting on this thread. Thank you. :-#

Again thanks to Maren, Gillian, Jim, Sanda for letting me talk this out. I've sorted out what actually the (2) issues are, and I have 2 training protocol and 1 extra "trick" to train, and 1 change in how the dogs interact/play.

The first one is the marker/clicker training. It's an alternative protocol, but given the dog's temperament I think it is the best option. The second is the typical foundation / NILIF type putting structure into the environment. But I'm not supposed to be his pack leader, so I don't think it is most appropriate. However, I know it will work if the first is not effective.

The marker training has shown good results already. The desensitization to putting my hand over his head was effective. I am training two obedience cues. 1) Come with me (even if you don't want to) and 2) Come to me (indoors, within 10 feet, even if you don't want to). Those 2 behaviors will give me enough handling to get him moved around comfortably even when he is not in the mood. I should mention that I have trained him to go into the bathroom to get him out of my way, but I will do this with higher rewards and train it besides just using it when I need to. He IS obedient to me for cues he already knows, so teaching these cues will eliminate stress.

The last thing to work on is teaching him WHO I am talking to. Part of this would be bf not calling him "dog"  I saw a dog that was trained "simon says." The dog refused every command that was not prefaced by "simon says." So I can teach him that "trick" - to ignore commands not prefaced by HIS name. This will take away the other stressfull situation.

I don't plan to change much of what is going on between the dogs. bf's dog will stand his ground with my dogs. He will guard his highpvalue items, but share lower-value items. They take turns ganging up on each other. Last week my dogs were harassing him in play. Today he and my adult dog were harassing the puppy. bf's dog steals toys away from my dog. But instead of giving "preferential" treatment in fetch play, I'll put my dogs inside. This way bf's dog gets a fair share of play, BUT I don't reinforce his status issue by giving him preferential treatment.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> I'd like to see a video of the dog's behavior without the treats, just him walking around the house and interacting with the other dogs and Anne in a normal living room setting, anne sitting on the couch, getting up, approaching him, walking around etc.


Pretty chill. We hang out. No big deal - looks like any ordinary multiple pet dog household with a couple relaxed spoiled dogs, until 1) something spooks him (rarely, and we don't do anything about it, let him get over it in his own time, or 2) I need him to do something he doesn't want to, or 3) he's confused about which dog I am talking to.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Anne, I've just read your last post and all I can say is "if you can't convince them, confuse them!!!!!"

If you put Terrasita on the block list, then you should put me on it too. I didn't take the time to answer your posts just to "let you talk it out".

You contradict yourself on all your posts - once he's the victim, then he's "standing up to the others".
What amazed me was that you originally said you shooed him out of the room because you were vacuuming and he's terrified of the vacuum.

Protocols, "Simon says", markers, "tricks", attempting to put your hand over its head.

All the above will never get you to be able to "read" this dog and act accordingly. Your heart's not in it and I fear you mind isn't either.

I'm sorry but maybe Linda Myers is right if you're going to put it through all this rigmarole that has nothing to do with lessening the stress for the dog.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote;
"I have no intention or desire to bond with bf's dog".


Why would this dog want to do anything for/with you on anything BUT his terms?"


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> \
> 
> The last thing to work on is teaching him WHO I am talking to. Part of this would be bf not calling him "dog"  I saw a dog that was trained "simon says." The dog refused every command that was not prefaced by "simon says." So I can teach him that "trick" - to ignore commands not prefaced by HIS name. This will take away the other stressfull situation.


Simple solution to this. Call one dog "Dee Oh Gee" and the other "Dog" if you both must insist on calling the dog dog.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Quote;
> "I have no intention or desire to bond with bf's dog".
> 
> 
> Why would this dog want to do anything for/with you on anything BUT his terms?"


 
"Because I said so" :lol: :lol: That logic works for my 3 yr old son.

This is a different topic that I have gotten seriously flamed for and even banned from another forum for expressedin. I think people over-emphasize "the bond" and don't see what can be accomplished in training and in the relationship with the dog without it.

I'm never going to have a bond with this dog like he has with bf. Sure, the dog and I can hang out, interact, train some things, he minds me.

It's like the difference between a coworker and a lover. I have coworker relationships with dogs. We have friendly, cooperative, productive relationships. Only rarely do I find a "once-in-a-lifetime" dog that I end up bonding with. I have "transient" dogs. I started with rescue dogs, moved on to rehabilitating dogs, to board/train, to service and therapy dogs. "My" dogs are intended to bond with other people. If "the bond" was so important, how could I accomplish so much with each dog in so little time? I am certainly not a perfect trainer and I make a lot of little mistakes in marker training. It is not exceptional skill that gives me fast progress. Maybe being able to forge a working relationship with the dog has something to do with it?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> "Because I said so" :lol: :lol: That logic works for my 3 yr old son.
> 
> This is a different topic that I have gotten seriously flamed for and even banned from another forum for expressedin. I think people over-emphasize "the bond" and don't see what can be accomplished in training and in the relationship with the dog without it.
> 
> ...


This is your BF's dog, not some transient dog. You moved in there, and with any luck it will be a successful long term relationship. I assume he is not the type of guy that moves dogs in and out of his life like a pair of gym shoes, so YOU should want to bond with his beloved pet dog, as he has, you are part of his dog's family now. Bonding is not always necessary in these situations but your presence is negatively impacting this dog because he is a "special needs" case, in a special living situation, it appears you just don't get it. I could make friends with that dog in a week or two probably, maybe even the first day.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Video update. This is the #1 problem. A little desensitization, a little obedience and good to go. See how tortured and miserable he is. :lol: :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUkgnmN7vcg

No growling, good attitude. Good deal.

I started working on him with multiple dog obedience. He hung in there with good attitude until i asked him to do aomething he didn't know how to do (sit from a down). Then he beat it out of there, but he wasn't so stressed out.

He has had:

3 sessions of desensitization to my hand over his head/on his collar.
2 sessions of the command "let's go"
2 experiments of trying the let's go command when he didn't want to
2 sessions of ignoring commands not preceded by his name
1 session of group obedience


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

can you post a longer video of you guys interacting? I would be interested to see how he reacts and more for myself, I would like to see if there are any signals he is showing as to his state of mind while working interacting.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

How hot is it in your house?


----------



## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> How hot is it in your house?


 Are you referring to the dogs panting as a sign of stress????


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> How hot is it in your house?


Dang - it was hot here yesterday! It was a record high AND humid. Finally broke in and turned on the AC in the evening. All the dogs were panting.... so was I. I don't know what the temp was then, but it was 87 degrees F in the house by 9 a.m.!  In May!


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Not training video - just hanging out in the yard. Took this one to show how he interacts normally.

Everyone except bf hanging out in the yard. Bf had just left so you can sort of see what the dog is like when he is not really engaged. He's there... but he would much rather be there with my bf and goes to the back door where he saw bf leave. I leave him alone and he comes back to the game. He participates.... but then he hangs back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhGogtHj0EA


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Has it occurred to anyone [other than Gillian who I know it has occurred to] that the depiction of this dog's personality and trainability has completely changed in a matter of days. You have a description of a dog that couldn't be trained to touch a hand with marker training for a year [unless at the food bin] but in a manner of days he's had several marker training feats where he overcomes his ultimate fears. The thing that strikes me the most odd is the assertion that he has growled at the child, yet you are comfortable enough with him loose around the child. Of course he hangs back in the game, he's pack outnumbered. I'm still not sure who "Dog" is. Why would you ask the dog to do something he doesn't know how to do. Confusion is one of the biggest stressors. 

In order to really be able to study this a a behavior/training/rehabilitation situation, you have to be able to rely on the historian. We already know from previous posts that the golden is at his best outside with his toys. The latest video shows that. Yes dogs pant with stress and his looks a tad on the nervous side. You haven't been able to see the problem. I couldn't even hear him growl in the hand over the head video, but maybe the sound is too low on my computer. All you see of the interaction indoors are marker training treat sessions and very short ones at that. You haven't seen him after he was attacked every 3 days, shooed with the vacuum cleaner or when she has her focused attention on him without the toy or the treats and demands that he does something. You haven't seen the shaking or the running behind the boyfriend when she calls him to cuddle up on the couch. Until you see all of it, you can't really evaluate the severity of the dog's problems or the effectiveness of the training or rehabilitation. 



Terrasita


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

imo he does seem somewhat held back and not really a part of the pack. Not nearly as bad as I thought it was when I read some of the first posts, lol, but not quite at ease. He obviously loves fetching but he never goes for the ball and he never tries to interact with other two dogs, not in a way a dog with a drive for fetching would. What would he be like if your other female a pit bull girl was there?


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Sanda Stankovic; said:


> 193470What would he be like if your other female a pit bull girl was there?


Bloody. Can't let that girl near another dog if there is a toy or food involved. :roll: Bitch. 

No food or toys, he would do his best to steer clear of her (can't blame him!) and she would ignore him... until she didn't!


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alan Fielding said:


> Are you referring to the dogs panting as a sign of stress????


Yes, I was actually.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Looking for a photo of something else and came across this little gem. I can't remember what had freaked him out. It's from Feb or March this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfbpO1R6Cgc


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Bloody. Can't let that girl near another dog if there is a toy or food involved. :roll: Bitch.
> 
> No food or toys, he would do his best to steer clear of her (can't blame him!) and she would ignore him... until she didn't!


are they allowed inside the house together? Lets say if you were all in the living room together? Can she be a huge part of his fear and insecurity? Because he surely knows that she gets a preference with you and I wonder if that plays a part in how he views you.
just to edit cos I saw the 'shaking' video... Where is your pit bull female girl when he goes into his freak outs? Cos on this last video, he doesnt seem scared of you which is what I thought was the issue. 

So when you called him onto the couch, where was your other dog? When he growls at you during training (because this obviously also doesnt happen always), is that ever related to another event that happened beforehand and could have affected him emotionally...


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> are they allowed inside the house together? Lets say if you were all in the living room together? Can she be a huge part of his fear and insecurity? Because he surely knows that she gets a preference with you and I wonder if that plays a part in how he views you.


She hasn't lived here for months. Only the 2 (of my 4) dogs live with me.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Not intended to be a dog video, but shows what Hunter is like around bf. Hunter is in the beginning and the end... not so much in the middle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpaKGhZEzG0

I bet he is panting from stress again. ](*,)


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

imo Bf definately needs to spend some time alone with his dog. You see how other dogs stole him away? He even brought him a frisbee to play, and was still ignored.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sanda, compare Hunter's face in this last video and in the videos with Anne. Look at the expression of the eyes. He's happy and not worried in the last video. What you see here is a dog trying to get the attention of the person he loves and he is ignored. Hes still operating on the fringes because of the other dogs and baby. When looking at him with adoration and even changing his position doesn't work, he goes and gets the frisbee. Unfortunately, that didn't work either. BF still never engaged him. You can't compare the panting in this video to the one inside the house. Its as different as night and day. Both videos do provide though some insight into reading Hunter.

Terrasita


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Who's Hunter?

Anne, some of the situations you've described are normal for more than one dog households, especially "patchwork" ones. 

I was lucky with my last two males, Briard and Fila but now I have 2 GSD males and they are not always peaceful with each other. However, years of working with and owning dogs have taught me a bit of "doggy language".

I often "ignore" the younger one if the older one is around. He wouldn't appreciate it, if I started making "overtures" to him. He'd be looking where No. 2 is. No. 1 am I, and as all dogs do, even weak ones, (and he's the most brazen dog we've ever had) they learn to accept the pack structure very quickly. It's a pity humans don't.

I used the word "ignore" but I wonder if you understood me. With "ignore", I mean letting the dog have its space, not forcing him to do something for you, especially as Terrasita says, not something he doesn't know. If he comes voluntarily to me, then "ignore" is not relevant but acceptance and not tentative handling is.

Ach! Anne, throw away your protocols, forget your sessions and lighten up. When you ask for opinions, it's never good to go into the defensive. I wish you well but I'm confused, especially after the last video of your allowing the kids to pat and stroke a dog that is stressed.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The couch video. He's scared of getting on that couch with Anne and the baby. Very worried about the babies touches.

Terrasita


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Ach! Anne, throw away your protocols, forget your sessions and lighten up. When you ask for opinions, it's never good to go into the defensive. I wish you well but I'm confused, especially after the last video of your allowing the kids to pat and stroke a dog that is stressed.


 
Awww... I love protocols. :lol:

Yeah - right about the time I was accused of being "cruel" and "torturing" the dog, and the recommendation to euthanize, I got a little pissed off.

Good luck convincing the vet to put him down.... considering the vet IS HIS OWNER! Hmmm... tell me how that would work. :-k :twisted:

"Hunter" is bf's dog - the golden 
"Dog" is my adult dog - the choc. lab
"Caper" is my puppy - the black lab/hound/greyhound looking thing


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sanda, compare Hunter's face in this last video and in the videos with Anne. Look at the expression of the eyes. He's happy and not worried in the last video. What you see here is a dog trying to get the attention of the person he loves and he is ignored. Hes still operating on the fringes because of the other dogs and baby. When looking at him with adoration and even changing his position doesn't work, he goes and gets the frisbee. Unfortunately, that didn't work either. BF still never engaged him. You can't compare the panting in this video to the one inside the house. Its as different as night and day. Both videos do provide though some insight into reading Hunter.
> 
> Terrasita


Sanda, Terrasita, you took the words out of my mouth.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thank God I have a vet that understands dogs. I've just been to him for a skin problem on the older GSD. No problem with him and his assistant but then an "apprentice" small teenager, came in and Buster started growling seriously. I had him under control on the table but the vet's words to the apprentice were "never stare at a dog of that calibre". I hadn't noticed her staring but he reacted on the dog's reactions.


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I would "ignore" the dog - with ignore meaning "not look at and pay attention to". If you are a dog, particularily a bit nervy or unsure dog, you want to be the fly on the wall. Calling him up on the couch is not cozy to him - it's confrontational. In dogs "liking" is more "feeling comfortable with" - this dog doesn't "hate" you - he is just not comfortable with you in social situations (the ones where he doesn't know what's going to happen) whereas he works fine for you in comfortable predictability of work sessions or play.

"Because I said so" just doesn't work with some dogs - you gotta pick your battles. I've had dogs that would flat out refuse to do some things, but as they did the things that were required of them job-wise and we had a good working relationship it wasn't worth it to force the issue.

I have a 14 yr old leader that is kind of a shy dog, doesn't like to be physically manipulated, not keen on petting, not overly "affectionate" but 
she has a great recall, good off-lead,loyal, and you can thread a needle with her - but I have never been able to make her sit or down - ever. Forcing her just isn't worth it and would probably damage what we have.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think as Gillian calls it, that couch is the proverbial lions den. He really wanted to escape but he didn't think he had that choice. Lynn, I agree about the ignore. I've rehabbed three rescues and two of those that really presented in the beginning as more autistic with inability to bond. One took two months to turn around as far as the bonding. Another almost a year and it was her prey drive that allowed me into her world and got us over the hump. The third bonded right away but had many fears--one was being picked up by a man. She went into fear/defense/bite mode. We got her [Mazie] beyond most things to function as a house dog and she particularly appreciated a safehaven--basket under my nightstand that only she fit in. However, hubby and son could not pick her up and that was just fine. She could be managed just fine without them picking her up. I worked her through most of her fears but didn't feel the need to sweep or mop around her [still scared her] and son didn't kick balls out in the yard [terrified her].

Terrasita


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This thread has taught me quite a bit.

Now I'll throw out a question:

Is it not the dog that has to bond with us - we just have to give him the right signals that he can do so as opposed to the fact that the owner has to bond with the dog?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think in Anne's world training is separate from bond. Hunter is a lab rat for want of a better term. Trouble is, she doesn't represent as neutral. She seems to suggest that through her protocols, she can get the dog to *disregard* what he feels about her and perform. She just wants to train him to do things [i.e. accept her handling], whether he wants to or not. Of course whether this bears out depends on the reality and reliability of the dog's history. I think most people envision a connection with the dog but if its the true lab rat theory [Pavlov's dog], for some behaviors, bond may not matter. It is interesting and makes me think of the Sea World killer whale. I don't know that operant conditioning can accomplish everything and get you beyond every aspect of the animal's mental package.

Terrasita


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Training = bonding = playing

Bond goes two ways. I've had dogs attach themselves to me that I couldn't care a rat's @ss about. There was a rott/chow mix dog that I bonded to but he certainly wasn't going to return the favor.

I have no bond with Hunter because before the last 2 days, I haven't messed with him except for 4 (productive) training sessions _that I can remember_ over 1 year. 1 for disc, 2 for dock diving, 1 for foundations for distance work. I haven't had very many times of playing with JUST him without other dogs around. We don't cuddle up - once he used me for a pillow while we were on the couch. We coexist.

That's just fine with me. I'm never going to be the center of his world. Sure, some bond will develop with training him. Still not going to matter in the grand scheme of things. He has a strong bond with one person, and clearly, nothing else matters.

As far as what others say about bonding:

When studied, the quality of a bond between dog and human depends on the human's perception of good behavior from the dog. For example, a person who is unpredictable will not elicit good behavior from the dog and the human will not desire to bond with the dog. 

Hunter and I probably fall into that. I haven't done much with him, so he doesn't understand my patterns of behavior. He is nervous because he is confused, which escalates into a bad behavior that does not motivate me to interact with him.

When I start working with him, he begins to learn what to expect, the confusion fades, the nervousness fades with it and I am motivated to interact with him. I started working with him and the confusion has faded away so much. I can see that he is starting to predict what I want and offer behaviors. \\/ That is awesome - he has learned how to play my game. His enthusiasm for learning the game and understanding he can DO something to earn a reward ends his nervousness - he gets fully engaged (briefly). I like what I see, end the session, and am motivated to train again.

Over time, sure some bonding will happen. It's a side effect, I guess. :lol: The bonding is not my goal. Ending the confusion/stress is my goal.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Training = bonding = playing
> 
> As far as what others say about bonding:
> 
> ...


 
*Terrasita*


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Training = bonding = playing
> 
> Over time, sure some bonding will happen. It's a side effect, I guess. :lol: The bonding is not my goal. Ending the confusion/stress is my goal.


Some confusion seems to exists. Wouldn't bonding end the confusion and stress? At least the stress?


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I did read your reply - I'm not making it up. Check out the Handbook of Applied Dog Training and Behavior, Volume I, at the end there is a section on human-dog bonds. Very interesting.

There is a lot of focus in the section about the role of the dog as fulfilling a psychological need for people. That can lead to some seriously messed up bonds and interactions that the book goes on to detail.

After getting out of rescue dogs, my dogs are purposeful. I was disgusted with the alternating "I love my dog" "I'm moving and don't want it" drama in the one-sided, selfish, "bonds" between pet dogs and pet owners. 

My dogs have jobs: To earn me a paycheck in stunt performance. To model good behavior to sell dog training lessons. To perform tasks to help manage my health condition. To learn tasks to assist other disabled people. I am very selective about the dogs I bring in because if it won't work, I have the obligation of finding it a nice pet home where it is highly appreciated without the need to work. 

The whole having-a-dog-for-the-sake-of-having-a-dog thing is really beyond my comprehension now. My dogs are employees that I like having around. They get lots of perks and bonuses for a job done well. My rabbits might be spoiled rotten pets, but they have specific purpose - to produce show quality babies, produce wool, or make dinner.

There is no free lunch - everything has to work to own its keep. My 3 year old has his chores - sorting laundry, folding towels, watering plants, cleaning his room, making the bed, etc. My dogs have their jobs. My rabbits have their purpose. Everyone works.

I don't know what to do with a dog that doesn't have a job. Just like other people can't understand having an animal to do work. They think I am cruel for requiring my dogs to perform. I think they are cruel for suppressing their dog's desire to work and forcing it to get fat and lazy. Two opposite points of view.

As far a patterns of behavior, you've probably seen it in dogs. Terriers have different patterns of behavior than livestock herders like border collies and aussies. Some trainers talk about the "erratic behavior pattern" of the APBT. That is the behavior pattern I know - I can predict a terrier's response to training. However, those little white-footed-herding-dogs have me lost because i haven't handled them enough to know their behavior patterns.

I do have specific behavior patterns. Call it a training style. I use my feet a lot. For example, in attention heeling, if the dog is standing at heel and I want to praise the dog without breaking position, I will cross my leg behind me and pet it with my foot. I use my feet and legs in cues. Which foot I move, forward or back, side to side, knee bent or straight - it all means something to me and dogs I have trained. To a dog that hasn't learned it, it just looks like really weird body language and the dog doesn't know what to expect next.

The first session with a new dog, I don't use their dog to demo. It's probably going to try to take a chunk out of me. After the first session, the dog is familiar with what I do and demonstrating with their own dog is fine.

After a couple thousand repetitions of a behavior, you'll develop a certain way of doing it. For example, if you watch Cindy Rhodes heeling, she always leans her torso a bit to the right and holds her left hand out over the dog. That is her specific style, she is consistent and her dogs respond will to it. Every trainer has a style - including line/leash handling, how rewards are offered, resulting in a fluid sequence and teamwork between dog and handler. You may not realize it until you observe someone first starting out in training that is try to juggle cues, markers, a leash, toy, food, and moving their body a specific way to bring a dog into position. This is when I am most aware of my behavior patterns - the way that I "make it look easy." Each trainer develops a pattern of moving, rewarding, leash handling, etc, that the dog is very aware of - even if the handler is not. 

I don't know what to do with a dog that doesn't have a job. Hunter is just ... there. Waiting for my bf to come home. I don't have a purpose for him - a reason to pursue training him (beyond ending his confusion/stress). Like I said before - we coexist and don't really bother each other. It is the situations where there is necessity to interact AND he doesn't understand what I am trying to get him to do when there is a problem. Teaching him what to expect solves the problem.

I don't have a problem with him just being there. I'm not the center of his world. I do share responsibility for keeping him happy and healthy, so I am concerned that he not be stressed. I don't think it really needs to be so complicated!


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> Some confusion seems to exists. Wouldn't bonding end the confusion and stress? At least the stress?


What do you call bonding? 

I mean - if you were going to bond with a dog, what would you DO? Because pet dog people think bonding involves hugging and sleeping on the bed together, giving treats for no apparent reason and what I see has a general way to create behavior problems. If that is waht you mean - no.

If by bonding, you mean interaction (training, play) in which the dog learns what to expect from the person - then yes.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> What do you call bonding?
> 
> I mean - if you were going to bond with a dog, what would you DO? Because pet dog people think bonding involves hugging and sleeping on the bed together, giving treats for no apparent reason and what I see has a general way to create behavior problems. If that is waht you mean - no.
> 
> If by bonding, you mean interaction (training, play) in which the dog learns what to expect from the person - then yes.


Well given this is a working dog forum, and I do work my dog daily, and even trial once in awhile, I would say the latter. This does not mean however I only consider him a employee, he is my buddy more than anything, I have a good balanced bond.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I tested out my theory and what I found continues to strongly support what I'm saying about patterns of behavior. 

If I am facing the dog and step forward with my right foot, it is a cue to back up. My dogs know this. But Hunter didn't and he took it as body pressure. I am d*mn good at clicker training and with some carefully timed clicks, I shaped his avoidance into the backing up behavior and he stopped understanding my body language as pressure. He began to understand that the movement is a cue and started to play my game of offering behaviors to earn rewards. It's pretty cool to watch his face as he figures this stuff out and changes from confusion/stress/avoidance to cheerful and fully engaged.

THIS (dramatic change in behavior) is why I love dog training.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Good lord. Any dog would perceive it as body pressure if he hadn't been trained that it is a cue for a behavior. How they respond to that body pressure can be flight, ignore it, or even push back. Again after declaring that previousl training was unsuccessful, somebody in this relationship after two days is a genius.

Terrasita


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Good lord. Any dog would perceive it as body pressure if he hadn't been trained that it is a cue for a behavior. How they respond to that body pressure can be flight, ignore it, or even push back. Again after declaring that previousl training was unsuccessful, somebody in this relationship after two days is a genius.
> 
> Terrasita


Ummm... actually no. First dog I've seen go into avoidance. This is something I typically use in evaluations when I want to know more about a dog's opposition reflex, agility, movement, hind end awareness, and how to approach training cetain behaviors.

Some dogs will "fold up" and just about fall over on themselves because they won't move their butts. A lot of dogs will pivot. The ideal reaction is the dog to hop up and back without hesitation. Dogs that do this are very easy to train a group of behaviors that I use in fine-tuning attention heeling. They tend to be biddable with good hind-end awareness. Dogs that don't do this tend to crab. Dogs that don't hop up tend to not be hind-end aware. Dogs that don't tend to have more of an opposition reflex.

Another way to test it is to put food in the dog's face and push back. Dog's the dog let its neck jam? Or does the dog move backwards? Yeah... not going to try that on a dog I just met...

Once I have pinpointed specific things I can work on, the training part is easy. Trying to sort through my frustration and a situation to figure what the problem is - that's the hard part. When I started this thread, I didn't realize the specific things that caused stress in the dog. It seemed random, so fixing it seemed unlikely. After talking it out and being grilled here, I know what specific things cause the growling/stress reaction. Now that I have specific things I can train, it's not a problem.

I am d*mn good at clicker training and shaping behaviors, once I have a plan and a goal.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I guess you didn't have a plan and a goal a year ago and for some reason as you describe it the clicker training engaged in before two days ago was unsuccessful. As for the response to the stepping into the dog, some dogs come forward. Some dogs don't give to pressure. Body pressure is old school herding training. They want t a dog to move away from the pressure. Most of my dogs don't instinctively give to pressure. Most don't move away or give to the pressure at all. You step into them initially and they plant their feet. My bouv as a baby puppy had the ultimate push back response--she came forward and grabbed my shirt. She was in the 12-16 weeks age when I tried this. Sure with training she will now back away from me but if you are looking for what she does raw, it was to move into applied body pressure. This is a concept that we try to explain to BC trainers. BCs are bred and selected for moving off of pressure. Our dogs were bred and selected to move in and overcome pressure. As for biddability and trainability, sure if what you need is move off pressure, those that move off instinctively are EASIER to train. A really pressure sensitive dog will take flight with body pressure. Another theory of herding traiing---pressure and release. If you use pressure, you have to know when to release as to not produce fight [Thunder] or flight and the dog ultimately shutting down into avoidance. Or rescue BC is really interesting. I wouldn't have said he gave to human body pressure at first. Then when I had him around livestock, he gave and gave big--100 feet. What you get out of him without livestock is different than with. Several Scottish BC people comment on wanting a people wary dog---makes those beginning training steps quicker. There is a tendency in the beginning with having the dog move off handler pressure and later its actually off stock pressure. 

As for the attention heeling, there are other maneuvers for getting the dog to move with his rear for those pretty flip finishes and turns. Has nothing to do really with whether they instinctively move off body pressure. 

Terrasita


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't think of it this way when I am training, but I first train the dog to give to body pressure. Then I train it the opposite - if I move back, the dog comes towards me. I don't know if that is actually relevant. Then something I train later is to no give to body pressure - if I step into the dog's space when the dog is in a stay, the dog stays there.

I bet that body-pressure stuff is why I don't "get" the herding breeds. I pick out a certain type of dog for myself that responds "right" to my style of training. Makes life easier. Pet dog training clients never get to the point that these differences matter, so I don't have to worry about getting good at training it different ways. I *can* do them - it's not natural and easy for me. I have to think about it.


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> What do you call bonding?
> 
> I mean - if you were going to bond with a dog, what would you DO? Because pet dog people think bonding involves hugging and sleeping on the bed together, giving treats for no apparent reason and what I see has a general way to create behavior problems. If that is waht you mean - no.
> 
> If by bonding, you mean interaction (training, play) in which the dog learns what to expect from the person - then yes.


I would say a third thing. A mutually respectful relationship. It looks like you have bonded with your other two dogs because just form those two videos, they look happy, at ease, playful, a part of the pack. Bf's dog doesnt look like that, he is excluded from it. 


I think that if you want to have multiple dogs in a way that you have them (because they do look like they live like pets, indoor/outdoor dogs, they do interact with each other and with you a lot on regular basis, cuddle on the couch with you, etc) and you are the boss of them all, then they have to view your behaviour as unbiasing if they are all going to feel safe and secure in your pack. Respect the order that they create amongst themselves, but still be equally fair to all of them. I'm however only a pet person...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

This is why we as trainers have to be aware of fight vs. flight drives and other components/drives as well. The police officer does not want a dog that gives to pressure. He needs a requisite amount of fight drive to complement the training and what he needs for the dog to do his job. I need a herding dog that has a certain amount of fight drive. Livestock don't play nice contrary to popular opinion. When you understand and see the dogs in terms of his drives regarding of your training theories, then you will understand how to approach him. If the dog is given more to flight, you wouldn't employ anything that could be interpreted as body pressure, less you get flight/avoidance which is the ultimate training failure for me. I'd rather have the push back dog. I demo--ed this to some herding people with my GSD several years ago. Walk with a purpose toward a BC, he will back up. Walk toward Teva in the same manner and she will come forward. Pressure sensitivity comes in degrees. Regardless, when you step into a dog, its applying pressure. How that dog responds is dependent upon his temperament and basic drives. Herding trainers and training decoys have to master this concept to get the best out of the dog for work/sport. However, I also think its necessary for any training to be truly effective because it goes to the dogs ultimate mental package which dictates what method would be most effective and instructing the handler regarding the best training and management approach.

Sanda, I'm one of those sappy pet folks too. First and foremost, my dogs are pets/companions. They LOVE the work that we do but are just as content to lie at my feet or on the bed next to me. One of my corgis, Khaldi, has taught me a LOT about social drive. Pets from me is a reward for her. She craves human interaction and not just through the work.

Terrasita


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I am d*mn good at clicker training



Which begs the question. Why bother asking for advise on an internet dog forum, especially if you're going to argue with most of the advise you are given? :-0


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Which begs the question. Why bother asking for advise on an internet dog forum, especially if you're going to argue with most of the advise you are given? :-0


Why do I ask?

Because I suck at using natural behaviors. Because I often need to "talk out" a situation to figure out what is happening. Because I'm interested in other points of view. Because the situation didn't respond to my personal cookie-cutter response.

Why did I argue certain points?

Of course I will argue the point of whether or not I'm being "cruel" and whether or not the dog should be put down! And I'll always stand up for my views on bonding.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Why do I ask?
> 
> Because I suck at using natural behaviors. quote]
> 
> ...


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> I think that if you want to have multiple dogs in a way that you have them (because they do look like they live like pets, indoor/outdoor dogs, they do interact with each other and with you a lot on regular basis, cuddle on the couch with you, etc) and you are the boss of them all, then they have to view your behaviour as unbiasing if they are all going to feel safe and secure in your pack.


I think you are correct in this situation - a small pack of fairly neutral dogs, no tendencies towards food/toy/dog aggression, with a dominant dog that will defer, and fluid pack structure.

It's hard to be unbiased indoors. Outdoors is OK. I give Hunter our secret cue and then throw a toy one way. My idiot dogs run after it and I throw Hunter's fav toy the other way. Indoors is harder. My dogs are pushier than Hunter and he will get up and leave. 

But in the big picture, no. There are cases in which unequal treatment is necessary. I've come across it a couple times with some seriously messed up rescue dogs. That's a topic for a different thread.


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> There are cases in which unequal treatment is necessary.


In a way they see it as being unequal?


----------



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> My dogs are pushier than Hunter and he will get up and leave.


I dont know if this is correct way of doing things or not, but I always thought its up to me to protect all of the dogs in my pack from being obviously harassed by other 'pack' members (except me lol). So, if one dog is obviously harassing the other one, lets say wanting to play and the other one is tolerating but isnt happy about it, I tend to verbally stop it. However, I dont interfere with all of their behaviours. For example, if one of them is sitting at a prime position in front of the heater, and the other one comes along and pushes into the prime spot, I dont interfere.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Anne Vaini said:
> 
> 
> > Why do I ask?
> ...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Actually, the behaviors aren't that simple as to be breed or category based in terms of herding dogs vs. sporting dogs, etc. I've actually worked a golden on sheep. The difference between the dogs is where they fall in truncation on the prey hunt scheme. Starting with the tabula rasa is always easiest--no baggage. Its why we all like that day 49 dog. Its when you have a dog with baggage in front of you that knowing dog pack behavior, flight/fight drives and all those wonderful signals that Turid Rugas writes about become even more valuable. If you like to test and select a dog for particular purposes, it also helps to know how to evaluate them along these lines. Studies performed in a lab setting provide only results specific to that setting. Take the dog out of the lab setting and you might see different. The lab setting is somewhat neutral and devoid of certain environmental influences that affects how the dog responds. 

Sanda, the human pack leader can operate to equalize the pack in terms of how they relate to each other. We wouldn't have allowed another dog to attack Hunter every three days. With the true alpha dog leaders, you don't have that type of bullying going on. As an example, my corgi Khaldi just doesn't like my bouv Khira. Why? Khira has intense prey drive and looks at the little dogs or follows them around like they are prey magnets. She doesn't act in any sort of prey aggression but you can see she's triggered. They don't like being followed around by her, similar to our cat Tiger. In the house, I basically down Khira so she leaves them alone and I don't let the little ones outside with her. They are all fine without other bouv Thor who does't invade their space or treat them like prey drive objects. We also do not allow puppies to harrass geriatrics. Hubby has his dogs and I have mine. While we both care for each other dogs when its necessary, its when its necessary. At times the dogs seek attention from the other spouse. For instance, I don't ever feed or share my food with my dogs. i can guarantee that when I'm not around he feeds them and tosses them things like pizza crusts while he's in the recliner. They see him and think beg. We are also very careful not to set up competition situations with food or toys. I don't play with dogs as a group--only as one on one. 

Terrasita


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

So where are we now? Apart from being at page 12 or whatever?

I've had a good sleep in the meantime, dreaming of magic wands that cast spells over 4-legged pychopaths.

Thanks Terrasita, Jim, Tanith, Sanda, Linda, and all the other numerous posters giving extremely good advice. Made for interesting reading. A pity it didn't all land in the right place but you know what they say about throwing mud at a wall.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I did read your reply - I'm not making it up.
> My dogs have jobs: To earn me a paycheck in stunt performance. *To model good behavior to sell dog training lessons.* To perform tasks to help manage my health condition. To learn tasks to assist other disabled people. I am very selective about the dogs I bring in because if it won't work, I have the obligation of finding it a nice pet home where it is highly appreciated without the need to work.
> 
> The whole having-a-dog-for-the-sake-of-having-a-dog thing is really beyond my comprehension now. My dogs are employees that I like having around. They get lots of perks and bonuses for a job done well.
> ...


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

@ T.... Bingo!


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Terrasitta - I think you are full of shit and unable to read plain english. (I don't give a damn about being banned from this section.)

I have been completely clear about the frequency, success (or lack of) working with the dog. I've told you my strengths, my weaknesses. I've talked about my successes, my failures. I've shown videos of good and bad. I've thrown my brainstorming into public.

I didn't pronounce anything "cured" but that he's improved with short, focused sessions. I've stated that we're "over the hump." This isn't "done" but I have the help I need, a plan to continue training, and a goal to work towards.

I have zero market in this board and no interest in expanding the training I do. I train 1 day a week, FYI.

I will not sit and watch while people only read what they want to, only see what they want to. There was some good advice here and some questions I needed to think about - squeezed in between the jumping to conclusions and name calling.


----------

