# Is this muzzle too big?



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)




----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

The side view looks like it's not tight enough across the top and the dog could scrape it off easily, just my $0.02


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> The side view looks like it's not tight enough across the top and the dog could scrape it off easily, just my $0.02


He can't get it off. He tried and I could cinch it down further but didn't need to.

This muzzle just came today. There was a guy at the club that had one for his GSD and I liked it so I bought one. The one I was using was from Ray Allen and it's MUCH smaller and tighter that this one.

I talk to hard dogs and they said it's sized for my malinois. 

It fits the rottie much better but maybe its made to be loose? I dunno.

I need to decide to keep it or send it back by tomorrow.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maybe, but the overall construction looks a bit out of scale for the dog. What does it look like on the Rottie? I'm guessing if you think it's too big, it probably is.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I'd go with something smaller if it was me. I live right by the Ray Allen factory place, I could take my GSD bitch down and see what size fits her if you want to order another from them, probably be easier to try it on a dog with that shaped face to determine size.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

the hard dog people reminded me this one has a bite bar inside and isn't like the old muzzle I had. They say it's the correct size.


http://www.harddogs.com/mz_pozer.html


----------



## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

$225 for a muzzle! OMG! For that price it should come with a dog in it! LOL

Sorry, off topic.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> the hard dog people reminded me this one has a bite bar inside and isn't like the old muzzle I had. They say it's the correct size.
> 
> 
> http://www.harddogs.com/mz_pozer.html


Then why are you asking on here if you've already formed the opinion that it's a correct fit


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


>


From the pictures it looks too big . I like the fit of Ray Allen muzzles better plus they have more ventilation for the dog not only to breath better but to scent better when I do training scenerios where a search is required . 

The test I have for fit on any of the dogs I use are tight enough to not restrict breathing but tight enough so I can lift the dog's front feet off the ground by the muzzle strap without it coming off .

Just because the dog can't get it off before a muzzle doesn't mean much . Things change during trainig . The dogs head and neck positions change and different muscles flex and relax , before you know it the muzzles off and you're getting eaten up . 

If I remember right the Harddogs muzzle has a piece of padding at the top that makes the muzzle ride high like that . Not sure but I think there was something else inside the muzzle that we felt was effecting the fit on some dogs when we use to use them . If I remeber right we were making our own adjustments to those muzzles to make them fit some dogs better . Something I don't like to do .

JMO , but I've had better luck with Ray Allen muzzles . I do like the basket weave muzzles many other folks make but they are so expensive and for the money I think the Ray Allen muzzle is the best buy . 

My concerns with that muzzle is first tightness , second ventilation and third the gap between the dogs nose and the inside front of the muzzle . Will it hurt the dog upon impact during a muzzle hit if it comes back and hits the dog's nose ?


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Then why are you asking on here if you've already formed the opinion that it's a correct fit


LOL, I think we must be a lot alike Ashley. I thought the exact same thing and just decided it wouldn't be worthwhile to inquire about that.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Then why are you asking on here if you've already formed the opinion that it's a correct fit


I posted here and then they emailed me back after I had posted. Even so, I do not overlook the fact they are a very small company and returns mean it can be a hassle for them. I expect them to say it's fine. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I just looks bigger than I'm used to.

I just returned from talking to a neighbor who is a prison K9 handler and decoy. He said they use the same muzzle but their mals are a little bigger. He said he likes these muzzles because the dogs can bark and bite with it on. 

I'm still on the fence.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Ahh ok, I was curious. To me it looks like it'd fit a fat faced breed better - Rotti, APBT, Bulldog.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jonathan Katz said:


> $225 for a muzzle! OMG! For that price it should come with a dog in it! LOL
> 
> Sorry, off topic.



I didn't pay near that price btw- I ordered it a loooooooooooooong time ago and actually had forgetten I ordered it until it came today. I was happy the charged me the original price they quoted.

It's a well made muzzle and it looks great but it's a WTF for me at the moment.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with Jim. The bridge of the dog's face is going to take a good hit when the dog makes hard contact.
It's that cute little possum nose on those dogs that make a smaller muzzle necessary. :-o :-#


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I posted here and then they emailed me back after I had posted. Even so, I do not overlook the fact they are a very small company and returns mean can be a hassle for them. I expect them to say it's fine. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I just looks big than I'm used to.
> 
> I just returned from talking to a neighbor who is a prison K9 handler and decoy. He said they use the same muzzle but their mals are a little bigger. He said he likes these muzzles because the dogs can bark and bite with it on.
> 
> I'm still on the fence.


I'm big into muzzle training and have trained many dogs in them . That bitebar thing sounded interesting but when I used the muzzle overall I didn't like it . I'm not sure I know anyone who didn't switch over to Ray Allen or a high quality basket weave muzzle , from the HardDogs . The company name is cool though .


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm still on the fence.


Chris I went through something similar with my DDB bitch. She's got a 15" in circumference muzzle that is all of about 2 1/2" long to her nose leather so you can imagine how careful I was in ordering a muzzle for her. Yet, somehow I ended up with a muzzle that'd fit a Great Dane. Even when I sent them pictures to show how ridiculously out of size it was, they required me to return it at my expense, pay a 10% restocking fee, and then shipping again to have a properly fitted muzzle sent to me. Understand that I contacted them in advance and provided pictures of the dog and muzzle I wanted to order to be certain it would fit properly. As far as I was concerned I more than exercised the proper consumer diligence and should have either gotten what I paid for or a replacement without additional burden to me for their error.

As I said earlier, if you think it's improperly fitted based upon how you've seen similar muzzles from them fit, then it probably isn't the right one.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

if they'll take it back I'm going to return it. If not, ebay....

Thanks for your input guys. 

I'm send y'alls a virtual round of drinks. Cheers.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Reaver swore by the particular muzzle he sells on his site, he may have more experience than anyone so I'd guess its worth checking out (I think being able to detect was one of the main points)


http://www.adlerhorst.com/price-list/prices/



(see 'muzzle')


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

That muzzle sure doesn't fit the dog...
Like I would wear a giant's shoes...


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

maybe ask the decoy who is going to be at the recieving end[-(


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I doubt I would ever work that dog in that muzzle, I do like Ray Allen muzzles, so I'm biased..

but here is my take on that muzzle on that dog...

just from the pics....It looks like it is too big and too short all in one....If the dog does not bite the bar somehow, his face is gonna get smashed...it looks nice and rigid, but the rigidity means nothing with that much space away from the structure of the dog, just hangs out on the nose end mostly. 

The neck strap looks to be too big, from the looks of that pic I could pull that muzzle right off his head very easily, grab the top of the neckstrap and pull it towards the nose, I bet it will slip right off...

It appears in the first pic his mouth is actually farther back, could just be camera angle. Either way I do not like the amount of Back Mouth that the construction of that muzzle leaves exposed on that dog...very easy to lose a finger from the looks of it...

the muzzle should fit fairly tightly, pulled back by the neck straps..when pulled forward it shouldnt really move that much, just stretch some...it "looks" like that thing can probably slide back and forth a couple inches on the dogs muzzle...

Like I said I would NOT work that dog in that muzzle most likely. Hard to tell with just pics...but I would return it if I was you, you can get better fitting muzzles, even if that one supposedly fits that dog.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I have and used the Hard Dog Pozer before and continue to do so, however this muzzle in my opinion is for one application and it is muzzle fighting operationally. Not training so much as it is short and decoy can get fingers and such caught in the mouth. It has a bite bar in the muzzle and sometimes increases the dogs fight. The muzzle itself is built sturdy and has a piece of metal in the front end, and is there not to keep the shape of the muzzle as Chris will attest the leather is pretty sturdy and rigid. 

I have never had a dog hurt or ever had any issues/problems with the muzzle at all. As the pics go, yes this muzzle is far to big for this dog. I always order custom as most malinois are too small for the medium muzzle. If you see the blue or larger L-Pozer, it is HUGE and looks like you can put it on a horse. 

No issues with the muzzle, it is expensive, however I like it and it does have its applications. If your looking for a standard leather muzzle of similar design to Ray Allen (poor leather, straps deteriates over time), PM me, I can put you in contact with a small time maker of them for half the cost of a RAM and far better leather.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> I have and used the Hard Dog Pozer before and continue to do so, however this muzzle in my opinion is for one application and it is muzzle fighting operationally. Not training so much as it is short and decoy can get fingers and such caught in the mouth. It has a bite bar in the muzzle and sometimes increases the dogs fight. The muzzle itself is built sturdy and has a piece of metal in the front end, and is there not to keep the shape of the muzzle as Chris will attest the leather is pretty sturdy and rigid.
> 
> I have never had a dog hurt or ever had any issues/problems with the muzzle at all. As the pics go, yes this muzzle is far to big for this dog. I always order custom as most malinois are too small for the medium muzzle. If you see the blue or larger L-Pozer, it is HUGE and looks like you can put it on a horse.
> 
> No issues with the muzzle, it is expensive, however I like it and it does have its applications. If your looking for a standard leather muzzle of similar design to Ray Allen (poor leather, straps deteriates over time), PM me, I can put you in contact with a small time maker of them for half the cost of a RAM and far better leather.


I agree the HardDogs muzzle is put together well with better leather then the Ray Allen . I'm not impressed with the leather on the Ray Allen muzzle but have had the same one for over 13 years now with no problems . That bite bar in the HardDogs muzzle , IMO is a gimick .


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> I agree the HardDogs muzzle is put together well with better leather then the Ray Allen . I'm not impressed with the leather on the Ray Allen muzzle but have had the same one for over 13 years now with no problems . That bite bar in the HardDogs muzzle , IMO is a gimick .


 
Understood, everyone has different applications and what they want out of a piece of equipment. In the case of the bite bar, I disagree based on results, but again thats just me...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody, thanks for the explanation on the pozer and what you feel it should be used for..

I do like the idea of the bite bar and have worked dogs in a muzzle with a bite bar and I think it does give the dog some tangible satisfaction. I lost touch with the guy that had the one with the bar, it was not a pozer and this was over 5 yrs ago...

Is anyone else making muzzles with bite bars in them that you know of? will your guy put one in?


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't see the use of having a "bite bar" in a muzzle... It only encourages "uncontrolled fighting without really punching"
If you have a dog that punches as it should be, he'll break his teeth on the bar.
Our muzzles have a steel "punching bar" on the front side of the muzzle. Inside the muzzle there is a leather "cushion" that the dog can grab with his front teeth when punching. It's soft so the teeth won't get damaged on the impact.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I understand totally, however the term bite bar is NOT a bar, its a hardened leather tab or piece in the front of the muzzle that encourages a dog to push/punch hard in order to grab it, it isn't just there and he bites it. It isn't a bar, just a thick leather pad or piece that if the dog punches hard enough he can grab in his teeth, thus encouraging the hard hits. 

This had no effect on the dogs teeth whatsoever as compared to other muzzles or fighting.

The muzzle in question has a good peice of steel in the front of the muzzle coated with leather that is used for just that as well.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Ok, then it's the same thing that we call "the cushion" (I did see pics on the web of a muzzle with a bar inside so I figured that was what you meant)
But the cushion doesn't help the impact of the punch. Some dogs like it and some dogs punch a lot harder without it.
"Cushions" over here come in many different shapes, depending on the punching style of a dog. Also muzzles come in many sizes. Not just S-M-L but lots of sizes (for length, widht and height) like you would have for shoes for instance.
For each head size, you have at least 4 or 5 options for height and width to make it fit like a shoe.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm still planning to return the muzzle. I talked to the harddog guy yesterday and he has encouraged me to try it for a couple of sessions before I do and if I still don't like it, he will take it back no questions asked. He also told me how to fit it on the dog's head better and it does indeed look better though I still think it's too big. I can pick up the dog by the muzzle and it won't come off. Anyway, it's a win win for me.

We're training tonight so I will try to take some video.


----------

