# Working red and black GSDs



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hi people,
I am very new to protection dogs and am always willing to find out new things. With the increase in the number of working dog breeders/suppliers the re are more quality dogs available for protection work. QWhat surprises me now is that as opposed to my assumption that working Gsds have to be black and tan, pure black or sable i have seen some pretty impressive black and reds which i thought are only suitable for showing. Does anyone know if these dogs are crosses between working and show lines?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Hi people,
> I am very new to protection dogs and am always willing to find out new things. With the increase in the number of working dog breeders/suppliers the re are more quality dogs available for protection work. QWhat surprises me now is that as opposed to my assumption that working Gsds have to be black and tan, pure black or sable i have seen some pretty impressive black and reds which i thought are only suitable for showing. Does anyone know if these dogs are crosses between working and show lines?


 Don't know, good guess. BLK & RED with strong drives are impressive to see...:-o


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

There are all colors in working and in German show lines as well as American show lines. All the dogs, back in the day were working lines. The color genes are still there no matter which lines. The blk and reds are what the judges are putting up so you will see more of them in the show ring. Therefore they are bred to get blk and reds. 

Yes there are some good blk and red working dogs. Reba is my blk and red and she is tuff as a 16 penny nail and a great dope dog too.


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

My WL dogs are black and red West German Working over Czech. Bred to a dog out of Belgium got R/B pups . But I care alot more about the inside that the fur color on the outside .


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

I googled specifically Black and Reds just now. I am wondering.....since everthing pertaining to this coat color ended up being breeders specific to show, do their dogs ever throw sables?? never were they mentioned anywhere. If they do get a sable, are they worth less in their world? what do they do with them?


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> I googled specifically Black and Reds just now. I am wondering.....since everthing pertaining to this coat color ended up being breeders specific to show, do their dogs ever throw sables?? never were they mentioned anywhere. If they do get a sable, are they worth less in their world? what do they do with them?


the way i understand it black and red is recessive. so it would be kind of like 2 white people having a black kid. i might wonder how that happened.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

They would never throw a sable. It takes at least one sable to throw sable.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Sables in the show world are not like working line sables. Show line sables still have the saddle pattern. They are never gray.

This is a sable showline: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/133576.html

This is, too: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/564490.html


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Sometimes you can get half ' n half, although I think this one is a cross myself.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Sometimes you can get half ' n half, although I think this one is a cross myself.


 
His name is Halv...Swedish for half :mrgreen:.




























Joke :-$.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Sables in the show world are not like working line sables. Show line sables still have the saddle pattern. They are never gray.
> 
> This is a sable showline: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/133576.html
> 
> This is, too: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/564490.html


I had a look at both of these dogs pedigrees and cannot find working lines in them!

I obviously don't know all the kennels but Holtkämper, Bad Boll, Wienerau, etc. etc. are show lines.

Here it is explained that the hereditary transmission of the sable colour is dominant not recessive and as Jerry said before, at least one of the parents must be sable:

http://www.arlett.de/sables/index.html


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

They are show lines, Gillian. I said so in my post. 

I was responding to Jerry's comment that show lines do not produce sables. They do, but they are not gray like our working line sables.

I am very aware of how you get sable puppies.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kristen, you're right, you did say they were show lines but I was confused because you called them "sable".

I thought the showlines were called yellow and black, red and black etc.?

"Sable" over here "grau" are more or less limited to the working lines, where we have grau, dunkelgrau gewölkt, etc. My elder dog is grau and the younger one is dunkelgrau gewölkt - no mention is made of the black mantle evident in many showline dogs.

PS, the link was for general interest, not just for you.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Sable refers to 'banding' of the guard hairs. Within the working lines, you get a gray (or occasionally a reddish) colored dog. Sable showlines look like the dogs I posted. They are sable because their fur is banded, but they retain the saddle pattern.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not convinced but maybe it's a language problem.

I think you just call many a dog sable with a "mantle" that really isn't a sable?

Will have to do some searching :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

A 'mantle'? Now I don't know what YOU'RE talking about! :lol:


A sable dog is a dog whose outer guard hairs are black-tipped, rather than being the same color from root to tip.


This page has many pictures of sable dogs on it, some that are, and some that are not gray: http://www.arlett.de/sables/index.html


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Sables in the show world are not like working line sables. Show line sables still have the saddle pattern. They are never gray.
> 
> This is a sable showline: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/133576.html
> 
> This is, too: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/564490.html


Those are not sable GSDs 

They are some form of genetic, roach backed, soon to be lame camel type dogs that are sable in color


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> A 'mantle'? Now I don't know what YOU'RE talking about! :lol:
> 
> 
> A sable dog is a dog whose outer guard hairs are black-tipped, rather than being the same color from root to tip.
> ...


 
What a great article!!! Thank you for posting Kristen!!!


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