# Best Bully for Work?



## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

I am in an ongoing debate that Mals and GSDs are higher level workers than any of the Bully breeds. 
I'd like to hear what others think are the best Bullies for things like Iron Dog, Shutzhund or PSA.
I want to work a Presa myself but am getting a lot of negative feedback on the idea.
So what would be the hot set up for a Bully fan? Corso? AB? Presa? Rotty? Boerboel? Fila? Boxer?
Does the whole world really think the GSD and Mal are that much better a platform to start from?
Feel free to share any thoughts
Thanks


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

if you can find a rott from good working stock that's the way to go. Corsos, Presas and Boerboel are too large and too slow for my taste. I never met a boxer I liked and Filas are not good working dogs IMO - too lazy, too human aggressive and too territorial.

I have a small but hard working, fast and very quick rottie with prey drive through the roof. [email protected]


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2008)

What exactly is there to debate?

I never understood.

If you're interested in an objective bottom-line, and you find a dog, ANY dog whose size and drives are conducive to it, you got yourself an appropriate dog, right?

If, however, you're starting from scratch why would you spend considerable time wading through breeds other than those which dominate the field(s) in which you want to participate?

The idea of ye olde gladiator breed is cute and all, but the GSD, Mal, Mal x, Dutch shepherd have (or at least had) the resources of modern government administrations (police, military), and time honored civilian breeders behind them. In other words, it's not really a dice roll that resulted in the aforementioned breeds being the face of Schutz, ring, police k9s.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Yes, I think the herders are the better platform to start from if you want to do Schutzhund, PSA, FR, etc. Not sure about Iron Dog, I'd have to read up on it again, but I believe it was created for the bullies, so it's probably got things that are geared towards them in the requirements.

If you really want a bully, I'd look at either a pit or a smaller AB. There are some nice ones out there, that have the drives, temperament, grip, and athletic ability to compete in the protection sports. I'd avoid the huge ones, IE CC, Presa, etc I rarely see one that has the drives and temperament to work, and if they do the athletic ability then becomes an issue. And with the price tag they come with, you will be spending a TON of money trying to find one that will work for you, more then you might spend if you just went out and bought an already trained/titled adult herder.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

When you look at any of the K-9 sports which require bite work, the number one dog is the Malinois. Reguardless of your personal interest, like, or what you use, you still must beat a Mal. They have become the standard, the demarcation line in the sport, none equaled. My dog of choice is the Bouvier des Flandres, other folks love the Shepherd, lots of great stuff out there but all have one thing to beat.............=;


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

I am curious. What are ya'll thoughts on an Akita as a working dog/sport dog?


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Christian, I am 100% a Bully fan and will probably always own Bullies, but yes GSDs & Mals are higher level workers, _at least for PSA, SchH, Ring_. I find the work ethic and family dog combo of a Bully favorable to a GSD or Mal though. 

I don't think you will ever see a Bully breed win nationals, but you can definitely be competetive and that's what matters more to me. 

If you were to choose one of those breeds to compete, I'd do either a Rottie, Boxer, smaller AB, or a APBT. There seems to be a higher number of Rotts working and their stock is not as hard to dip into than the others. I have seen a fair amount of Boxers that _I_ really like. They were very high drive, and athletic. A Boxer has to work a bit harder on bite work because of the shorter muzzle, but they still do ok. They tend to like to punch the decoy first, then bite. ABs and APBTs are pretty similar. I really like them, and they can compete at a high level. 

The disadvantage of the other breeds you named are their size and lack of athleticism compared to the smaller breeds. We have a person in our club with a Presa. It's still a pup, so I'm very interested in seeing how she does and working w/her. 

It's up to you, I have met many people who stick with their breed and work with that they have, and there are others who get a Mal because they know that's their best shot at getting further. Although, when you do see an off-breed make it as far as a herder, that is very impressive.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Christian, what is your experience level? What is it you are looking for in a Bully Breed that a Mal or GSD doesn't have? I can give you some guidance in person but need to know more of you motivation for dogs and training.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

So on the APBT what seems to be the pro's and con's some of you have seen. Are they more tempermental, lack drive, harder to train?


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Patrick Cheatham said:


> So on the APBT what seems to be the pro's and con's some of you have seen. Are they more tempermental, lack drive, harder to train?


IMO, 

Cons: The APBT are very hard to find for working. All these a$$holes who breed for "big heads, huge chest, short & wide" have really screwed up this breed. Also, with the immense over-breeding of them, many serious folks who love the breed don't breed anymore, unless it's for themselves. They have sometimes too much dog aggression, and it's just not in their instinct to attack a human. Remember, when they were fought in the pits, they were bred to be extremely people friendly in order to be able to break up a fight. 

Pros: Extremely willing to please, smart, powerful, great athleticism, and when their drive is channeled properly, a very gamey dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We've had and have some nice Pits on our club. 
At one point in time the Boxer was second in popularity to the GSD in Germany for Schutzhund. As with the GSDs, the Boxers from working, European lines are light yrs ahead of the American dogs for function, AND looks, IMHO.
Lynsey F of this form has a tiny little 50 something lb SchHII GSD that cleaned up at a AB Iron dog trial. Aridan cam in third over all, including weight pull.
The Bully folks could tell you more about the ABs but I do know you have to be careful about "type". I like what is called the "standard". The "Johnson" dogs are wide and thick with much less drive. (As a rule. There are always exceptions)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

If you can find a well-bred APBT they are one of the hardest to train for bitework.

They were selectively bred to eliminate ALL human aggression. Many bloodlines don't retain defense drives. They have difficulty with physical stress. Their behavior patterns appear unpredictable to most TD's. Training techniques need to be modified as they aren't into the chase as much as the fight.

The helper at our group (Mark Keating) has worked one of the very few or only APBT's in FR. He says with the APBT's the helper "allows" the bite. In the only sport where the decoy is against the dog, this is a serious flaw that prevents higher levels of competition.

The question is: do you want the dog you love and play around with sports that interest you? - or do you want to get a dog that has greater potential for high levels of competition?

I stick with a dog I can love and love living with - and explore whatever potential she happens to have.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

anne, i'm thinking it's about times for some updated pics of your baby girl (and the others too). get after it!!


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

I've seen some APBT at trials before. While there were way more GSD's competeing the APBT's got more OOH's duing the protection phase. At least on this day any way. High score did go to a GSD fom our club. The APBT club was out of the Maryland area and there dogs were pretty nice.
Here in SC I would have to be very careful were I go one. Because just like cock fighting, fighting Pits are big business.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

There are only a few good boxers but I like them over the others. Good ones are very protective and will take the fight to you. I think that the reason for only the few number is because of the GSD and the Mal. Check Abbie's videos in the video section. Bob I agree with what you said about the Boxer.

Kim, no way.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> The helper at our group (Mark Keating) has worked one of the very few or only APBT's in FR. He says with the APBT's the helper "allows" the bite. In the only sport where the decoy is against the dog, this is a serious flaw that prevents higher levels of competition.


I suspect I know which Pit Mark is talking about, and I have to disagree with him as far as it being an APBT trait. The dog in question just isn't a very reactive dog. In FR, where the dog is coming down the field and the right bite target might change 5 times in 1 second depending on what the decoy is doing, this is a problem. It takes a dog who can really think fast on their feet. Good FR technique is almost like a reflex action vs a thought out response, and this dog is a "thinker". With that type of dog, regardless of the breed, a sold FR foundation is also critical.

Put this same dog in another sport, Sch, MR, PSA, etc and I think you would not even see a problem with entries. Actually I know you wouldn't  Because the target is not going to disappear at the last second, the dog doesn't have to think about where he's going, he knows where he's going. And once he's on the bite, he's not coming off, at least not until his owner tells him to 

Most of the other Pitties I've seen work are more reactive, and therefore would have better technique in FR. Then the question is just finding one who can do the jumps, take the pressure in the bitework, and has the clarity in the work for the fast outs required.

I actually think the Pit is an untapped resource in terms of working dogs. I've seen many that I thought showed enough potential to at least start training with, I think the reason we don't see more in the sports is because of the owners, not the dogs abilities. That and issues with the breeds reputation, I'd love to work another Pitty but would have to change homeowners insurance before I could even consider getting one. That's one concern, the other is I'm just not setup to deal with a highly dog aggressive dog, on the off chance the pit I got grew up to be one.


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## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

Wow Thanks all for the thoughtful and thorough responses. I am a dog person first. I really enjoy all breeds but I prefer larger dogs. I have pretty fair OB experience and no protection experience except helping to build drive in some dogs etc. Success in OB led me to wanting to take the next step. I'm looking for a dog that I can live with enjoy and participate in the various sports. I'm pretty active and social so my dog would need to run and hike and be taken into social situations as populated as a college. I have started looking around at Mal Breeders starting with one I found on this very board \\/ . I also found several Presa Breeders with titled parents health and temperament tests and Penn hip scores. Ideally I think it would be really fun to get pups of each about the same age and track their individual progress. The 2 best dogs Ive owned were a Dobie and a Rotty. Both very eager to please and sensitive to input from me. Great defense and guard instincts. The Dobie was very aloof with strangers but stable. I could get them to do nearly anything not because of drive but because the wanted to work for me. This type of dog is what I work with best (no big surprise LOL)
I'm not so much looking to come to a conclusion based exclusively on this thread as I was looking to get some of the insights of the experienced and knowledgeable members. I like to foster discussions like these because I end up learning new info.


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## Erin Sullivan (Jul 24, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> If you can find a well-bred APBT they are one of the hardest to train for bitework.


i'm not a mal or gsd handler, i have a pit bull. they may be harder to train in bitework than a more traditional breed, but i have not seen any of the pit bulls in our club have any difficulty in this regard. i have a pit bull of unknown heritage who i stumbled across and started training after having him evaluated. while we had to work to get rid of some of his baggage due to no foundation work in the sport of our choosing (schutzhund), he's eager and fun to work. he loves doing the bitework, though he's still rough around the edges. we haven't titled yet, but i think at the very least he'll be a good club dog to compete with . . . and when he's retired, i hope to find a pit bull that'll have his drives that i can start from scratch and have higher goals for. 

i know my dog is not the standard by which to judge pit bulls, but i have seen our training director and decoys working through as many problems with young sheps and other dogs as they have had to with mine . . . or with the other pit bulls in the club. and we do have a good number of them--our president has one pit bull and one AB, our training director has one pit bull, i have one, and there are two other members that own two apiece. all of them are pretty keen in the bitework, three of them have earned SCH IIs, two are going for SCH IIIs in a club trial next week. 

they are capable of doing the work, and what i like about these dogs is that a good pit bull is pretty confident, not nervy, and once its clear on the task at hand, takes to it with gusto. but of course, i'm biased since i'm a pit bull person! and I'm also new to the sport, so maybe i'll be singing a different tune in a few years, who knows, but i doubt it because i am very fond of this breed (and ABs) and can't seem to shake the disease!



> They were selectively bred to eliminate ALL human aggression. Many bloodlines don't retrain defensive drives.


They were actually selectively bred to be game and easily handled by humans. While defensiveness or aggression toward humans was not favorable, and was not selected, if the dog was going to make big wins and money in the pit, that's where its real value lay . . . I think if you read up on the history of the pit bull, you will find that plenty of biting dogs bred if they had value elsewhere. That said, I do think the threshold for aggression toward humans is lower in the pit bull, and I agree that the defensive drives in many of our dogs is lower than in many other breeds. That's why many people working with pit bulls work on developing the prey drive, at least in the beginning, which is actually quite high in our dogs. If you're working in a venue where this is something you can use to your benefit, you can probably do more than you'd think with these dogs . . . while I don't think pit bulls as a breed are all that successful in "real world" work, where you really need lots of defense, I think they can be quite successful and fun and interested in doing sport work . . . as long as the trainer and handler understand the breed and are willing to work with the dogs' innate drives rather than against them . . . because they are different than the herding breeds. 



> They have difficulty with physical stress.


I'm not sure what part of the physical stress you mean is difficult for a pit bull . . . I know the president of our club says he wishes he could find pit bulls that were larger but still balanced and not freakishly bred because things like the jumps and A-frames and stuff are designed for larger dogs and can put a lot of stress on the joints of a smaller pit bull. But if you mean physical stress, like stick hits and pressure . . . I haven't seen any problem with that in the dogs I've known to compete in the sport. I think you could hit my dog with a metal rod and he'd hang on to the sleeve, because that's what he was bred to do--fight and grip and hang on and fight some more in the face of adversity. 



> Their behavior patterns appear unpredictable to most TD's. Training techniques need to be modified as they aren't into the chase as much as the fight.


I agree that the behavior patterns may appear strange to TDs . . . mostly because this breed isn't one tons of people are bringing to structured bitework. I think many of the techniques that people have success with in a shepherd may not quite apply to working with a pit bull . . . or maybe need to be modified. And that's a valid concern, and whenever people tell me they want to do "bitework" with their pit bull, I urge them to find a club or trainer who has lots of hands-on experience with the breed and is comfortable working with these dogs . . . I am incredibly lucky to have that in my club. I might not be training in schutzhund at all, if it weren't for our TD, helpers, and president, all of whom are familiar with our dogs and handle them competently and confidently. 

I would disagree with your sentiment that our dogs aren't into the chase. An athletic pit bull with proper drives (prey, play, hunt) will indeed chase and enjoy the chase--the dog does need to be taught, though, that there is payoff in the chase. The fight drive is a big motivator in the dogs I've had and even when I'm training basic obedience in pet pit bulls, I use that to my benefit and give the dog a huge tug/physical reward for a job well done. That makes a happy pit bull! 



> The helper at our group (Mark Keating) has worked one of the very few or only APBT's in FR. He says with the APBT's the helper "allows" the bite. In the only sport where the decoy is against the dog, this is a serious flaw that prevents higher levels of competition.


I can't address this, since I'm not involved in FR and I don't know the helper or the dog in question. 



> The question is: do you want the dog you love and play around with sports that interest you? - or do you want to get a dog that has greater potential for high levels of competition?


Another question I'd ask is, do you have the resources available to you that you need to be successful with the breed you're choosing (if you go with APBT anyway)? I wouldn't want to take my pit bull to a TD who thinks the dogs can't be successful in the sport or who feels they are unpredictable or who just doesn't think they have potential to do the job. You want to be successful, you want your dog to be successful, and I think you do need the right kind of guidance to be successful . . . 



> I stick with a dog I can love and love living with - and explore whatever potential she happens to have.


and that right there is probably more important than anything else!

i also wanted to add that i do hope that there will be some evolution in the minds of those breeding the APBT . . . right now, we are inundated with people who want to breed "freaks" with huge heads and no athletic ability or drive, or people who think the only way to properly determine the breedworthiness of the dogs is to match them. there are a handful of people who are breeding the dogs with other goals in mind than fighting them or turning them into cartoonish freaks of nature. i hope to god i live to see a day where the working people can take this breed somewhere that its versatility and ability can be appreciated.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> i also wanted to add that i do hope that there will be some evolution in the minds of those breeding the APBT . . . right now, we are inundated with people who want to breed "freaks" with huge heads and no athletic ability or drive, or people who think the only way to properly determine the breedworthiness of the dogs is to match them. there are a handful of people who are breeding the dogs with other goals in mind than fighting them or turning them into cartoonish freaks of nature. i hope to god i live to see a day where the working people can take this breed somewhere that its versatility and ability can be appreciated.


Thankfully, the few are still out there. I found a breeder who breeds for a "complete dog." A small pit (45 - 55) that is agile, sound in structure, freindly, stable - and he works his dogs in personal protection, weight pull and sprint racing (sledding). He's not an exacting sort of trainer, but watching the dogs work in protection and seeing them in various environments - events, vet clinic, etc - over a period of 2 years was enough to show that the dog is more than a ball of prey drive. I don't believe he is breeding APBT's anymore - I feel I was very lucky to get one of his pups.



> you do need the right kind of guidance to be successful . . .


Coundn't agree more! There's a club here that seems to prefer to not change the training style to accomodate various breeds. Thankfully I've found another good group with experience in a much wider range of breeds.



> I know the president of our club says he wishes he could find pit bulls that were larger but still balanced and not freakishly bred because things like the jumps and A-frames and stuff are designed for larger dogs and can put a lot of stress on the joints of a smaller pit bull. But if you mean physical stress, like stick hits and pressure . . . I haven't seen any problem with that in the dogs I've known to compete in the sport. I think you could hit my dog with a metal rod and he'd hang on to the sleeve, because that's what he was bred to do--fight and grip and hang on and fight some more in the face of adversity.


I'm surprised about your club's president's comment about jumping. IME, the 40-ish lb dogs of any breed do very well in jumping. I have very different perspective here coming from dabbling in canine high jump. IMO, jumping is something that requires a lot of training to teach the dog how to take-off and land safely.

My comment was intended to be about stress in bitework - specifically hte helper putting pressure on the dog through body language. Pits in general are sensitive to / aware of people. Without taking this into account when training, you'll see the dog that does bite, but is showing signs of stress. Now, you're right this can be overcome by bringing out the gameness of the breed. Someone who is not familiar with pits might not be aware that this can be worked through. 



> An athletic pit bull with proper drives (prey, play, hunt) will indeed chase and enjoy the chase--the dog does need to be taught, though, that there is payoff in the chase.


Haha!  That's exactly what I meant by modifying training techniques - teaching that the chase brings the bite/tug/fight.

I think we agree - training a good pit in bitework is certainly possible. But it will take good guidance and some understanding of the breed.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Has anyone ever seen a dog that was a cross between a Mal or GSD and bully breed?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I've seen GSD/APBT crosses in shelters, but never seen one work.

A friend and I were talking in a "what if" way about Mal/APBT crosses. I think a careful crossbreeding could produce some very nice dogs. Of course - those are my two favorite breeds so I'm biased.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't really like any of the bully breeds, I can respect them, but I wouldn't want to own one. But I am indeed curious what a Malinois/Bully combination would produce from a working perspective. If nothing else, I wonder what the heck it would look like :lol:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's a Malinois/Pit mix..... looks like a Black GSD to me :lol:

http://caninesbest.com/about_us-heidi_saeter.html


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Has anyone ever seen a dog that was a cross between a Mal or GSD and bully breed?


I've seen a few Mal x Bully crosses and they weren't bad dogs, but they weren't good enough for me to think the cross was a good idea. I didn't think the dog was an improvement on either of the parents breeds.


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## Sam Trinh (Jul 31, 2006)

i saw a few pics of some from Chris Duhon awhile back, hopefully he still may have them? Looking at how muscular some of the Mals I see are, i would not be surprised if there was a bully cross somewhere in the lines.


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## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

I think fundementally the idea of producing a "working" hybrid dog is good. After all how did we end up with Dogo Argentino, Presa Canario, even the Doberman? I think breed loyalty can sometimes stunt growth in animal progress. Realistically, anyone who works dogs likes traits in the dogs and not necessarily the dog. It would be a pretty great project for some breeders and dog trainers of varying breed backgrounds to get together to "build" some new hybrid workers. If someone was good at grant writing, this could probably get federal funding for. If the goal was to improve military and law enforcement canines. I wish I had the time and ability for a project like that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christian Watts said:


> I think fundementally the idea of producing a "working" hybrid dog is good. After all how did we end up with Dogo Argentino, Presa Canario, even the Doberman? I think breed loyalty can sometimes stunt growth in animal progress. Realistically, anyone who works dogs likes traits in the dogs and not necessarily the dog. It would be a pretty great project for some breeders and dog trainers of varying breed backgrounds to get together to "build" some new hybrid workers. If someone was good at grant writing, this could probably get federal funding for. If the goal was to improve military and law enforcement canines. I wish I had the time and ability for a project like that.


First you have to decide who gets the grant. The perosn that wants a well ballenced type dog? The person who wants the extreme bite dog? The person that wants the extreme detection dog? 
Good GSD people can't even agree on what the good GSD is supposed to be. 
We have a gazillion "working" breeds and everyone has their own idea about what is correct in any of these breeds.
I think I'm getting way off topic!  :grin:


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Right, I think it's more the individual dogs. I was impressed to see how many Pits are working for the State of WA via lawdogsusa.org


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

In the KNPV lines there is alot of crossing, and there are so many different temperaments of dog within the same "breed", and even sometimes within the same litters I'm sure..... theres enough good blood out there to breed good dogs, the problem is that theres more crappy breeders out there than good, so while good dogs are being produced, its just really hard to weed out the crap.


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

I haven't been around in awhile so I missed this thread, but to answer the original poster's question, I would advise going with a gamebred APBT or performance bred AB. And despite what others have said here it's still relatively easy to find a good/great candidate from solid working lines. Talk to people like Diane Jessup, Leri Hanson, and Ron Marshall in addition to taking a look at the writings of Gary Hammonds.




Andy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Pros: Extremely willing to please, smart, powerful, great athleticism, and when their drive is channeled properly, a very gamey dog.

Then where are all these dogs in the dog sports???? Problem with all this "drive" is that it disappears when control is introduced. That is why they fail at the ringsports, they do not really have all this "drive" as it disappears so quickly it is just some sort of weird hectic nerve thing and not large amounts of drive. I have watched pits and AB's at the lower levels and that is about it for them. They came up with their own breed test, but the dumb asses made it look like Sch, so the retardation of the breeds continues. I am absolutely against the pits doing bitework, but that is more of a slam on who owns them than the breed. 

I like the bully breeds, just not the people that are out there breeding them non stop with no attention to where they are going whatsoever. I would have loved to see the AB become a working dog, but way to many trailer payments are being made off the pups for this to happen. So **** them.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Jeff in all fairness you can't say all the breeders of a breed you are not involved with. People in the "know" can direct some one who is interested in finding a nice working prospect AB or Pit. 

Yes there is alot of shit being produced in the AB world but compared to the GSD world it is no where near the numbers. There are nerve bag pieces of crap in all breeds, I am disappointed that you haven't had the chance to watch a good AB or pit work in your sport of choice. Too bad for you.

Their are people competing with their AB's & Pits if you get the SchH USA magazine you can find a few in each issue under trial results. Not alot- but their are some. We keep our breed of dogs because we like them and train them so we can have fun with our dogs.

Not every one who has pits and AB's live in trailers dork! I actually live in a nice house that I own. We are in the higher income bracket and are educated beyond the 6th grade!

Some people actually take their performance bred AB's to work catching wild boar off of people's farms & ranches daily.... game control....catching & holding a 250# wild boar that is trying to kill him. The conditions can be extreme and some times these dogs get injured or killed. That takes some thing that most dogs don't have. These working AB's & Pits ride together and work together not fighting. Then they come home and hang out like a members of the family.

Peace!

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, so by your choice of joke titles you choose to put up for your dog with the infamous "sch1" proving my point quite nicely. Low level titles.

Quote: Some people actually take their performance bred AB's to work catching wild boar off of people's farms & ranches daily.... game control....catching & holding a 250# wild boar that is trying to kill him. The conditions can be extreme and some times these dogs get injured or killed. That takes some thing that most dogs don't have. 

Really???? Like what ???? Have you tried another breed or is it just you spouting the breeds typical BS. I have had coondogs that would hold boar, so really, how embarrassing is that. A 50 lb ******* that can do the same job as a 120# AB. I have also had coondogs that would take on cougar as well, so I am telling you flat out that this whole hog dog thing is not impressive at all as a "point" for a breed. Look at Don T's dogs out there smoking the competition and he has Airdales. I would put my money on one of his dogs before any AB breeder out there. Also this BS about being able to settle down and be a family dog......have you owned a GSD or Mal???? Mine is perfectly fine, and comes home from training, and hangs out with me. He is fine with kids and other people, so there is more mythology trashed. If people have a herder that doesn't it is because of them, not the dog

Having said all that, I really wish that AB breeders would put up or shut up, but they do not seem to be willing to do so. I like the breed just fine.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Jeff your a neat guy. Your reputation superceeds you. It must make you feel fuzzy and warm inside.

I will keep my joke low level titles because they were fun. I am sorry it tears you up and takes away from you and your training and thoughts in general on how fu__ed up the dog world is ](*,) .

I said my peace, I will not argue about your personal experience with your **** dog (good for you). I hope you take your mal and go hunting with some one like Gary Fuller. I am not saying other dogs can't, I am just saying most dogs wont. I have watched AB's curr as well as other breeds in catch tests.

Also I personally don't know any one who would own a 120# AB for any kind of work. Most performance AB's would be 70#+ 95# would be pusing it.
I know some people in Mexico breeding GSD mixes and they are catching Javalina (smaller hogs). I have seen a GSD catch in a pen, but mostly it is AB's & Pits. I don't actively hunt but my AB's are out of catch tested or sport titled titled parents.

But Like I said before- we have the dogs we like. I am sorry that is pisses you off so much, I really am.....:twisted: 



Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Actually people like you that try and make a big deal out of these dogs disgust me. I am glad that my reputation proceeds me, as it turns out that most "bully" owners go curr really quickly as well. Nice to know that you are a pet owner....I think the bulldog forums are calling you. They love to smear excrement all over themselves by pumping the reps of these breeds up. Meanwhile, the rest of us watch as your breeds fail over and over again to obtain higher level titles all the while you and your ilk are promoting the oh so lovely "qualities" of the breed.

I have to wonder that you did not bring up Odin, the level 3 FR AB. Mind you he never actually passed FR3, but is known as the FR3 AB. 

Your flailing about just makes it more obvious that the breed is in trouble so I usually encourage it. This time I thought maybe I would have a better discussion. Then you curred before I had even gotten started. Pretty funny.........and warm and fuzzy.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Please note; this forum is for discussion. Disagreements are a part of any discussion, that is certainly understandable. In fact, opposing views have always been welcome. Don't make the arguments personal.

Thank you.

DFrost


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Thanks for the reminder David.

Jeff, Dude you are barking up the wrong tree. I may have a bulldog but I am not the fighter that you want me to be. I already agreed with you! I said there is alot of shit AB's out there! But what you didn't get is that there are a select few whom are breeding pretty nice working prospects. That being said it is really hard to place those dogs in the homes where they will be taken to a high level because most of the top trainers are uing Mals and GSD's. See Jeff you win:mrgreen: your mals are always on the podium in the ring sports and aften in SchH (look at Ivan B). I am not trying to take that away from you. I was just pointing out some of the qualities that a nice well bred AB should have- I am not knocking your mals.

I am a dog enthusiast that plays in Schutzhund. I think I have a fair grasp of temperments, nerves and the idea behind the Schutzhund and yes it ticks me off to no end when I see a nervy fear biter trained enough to get a title regardless of the breed. But as I previously stated Schutzhund is what I do because that is all that is available and I really like my TD and my club friends. We work together to acheive small goal with our canine partners.

Jeff if you can be a little more civilized and ask me specific questions I will be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge. The problem is that you probably will not like the answer and will have to shower me with insults and excrement again (yukk [-X ).

Now if you exuse me I need to go take a shower to wash the excrement off.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Wow, this got pretty bad. 

I agree with Julie. The shits outnumber the good ones, _Bulldog or Herder._


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## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff you need to play nice with the other children :mrgreen: 

I have an AB now that is a rescue dog from a shit bird breeder who killed about 50 dogs by disappearing and leaving all his dogs with no food or water. This dog has the most personality ever but most cats have more drive LOL. 

I am personally partial to the Presa Canario. I like the dog, its demeanor, size and athleticism. I know so far they are pretty low level achievers. This is a small breed and aren't many working with it. I'm not saying so far the Bullys have been developed to the level that GSD and Mals are at. But I was asking for opinions on what was the best Bully for work.

I understand some members of this forum think the Bullys are not workable


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Christian, you may have seen this already since your looking at PCs. If not, this kennel works their dogs. Link.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Coming into this a bit late, but oh well. Thought I'd just toss in my .02 cents to the already overflowing piggy bank here.

Regarding American Bulldogs. It is true. MOST ABs people see around town or in backyards or bayous are not suitable for work. But since when has MOST of a breeds population that is readily seen been the way to judge an entire breed? If you want to do that then the GSD looks like a breed totally unfit for work in the USA as the dogs you see running around everywhere are primarily show dogs or "bred as pets."

People that want their ABs worked or tested often think just because they have a bully dog it will be some man eating monster. They usually have pretty laid back low drive dogs or unstable ones. And so their dogs fail miserably.

It comes down to bloodlines and training. Stay away from Johnson bred dogs JDJ infused English Bulldog blood into his lines several times to produce "bullier" dogs. Unfortunately a lot of people with Johnson type dogs sacrifice drive and temperament for how wide they can get a dogs chest and how short the muzzle. Go for standard or 'hybrid' type dogs. The control issue regarding drives comes from people using springpoles as the primary means of drive building, or they don't teach control or focus or don't know how, or didn't have a dog that was actually suited to the work.

People used to Mals and GSDs do tend to think that ABs are difficult or unstable.. because they don't know the breed. Different ball game. You wouldn't use a football to play hockey, would you? Look at the Bouvier, G Schnauzer, and Airdale. Not many of them working compared to GSDs and Mals but they do and can work. 

The difficult part is finding the bloodlines and pups being available. Most lines of ABs lack sharpness or sharpness is all they have. Or others have lots of prey drive and nothing else, or any number of other problems that comes along with people that don't know what to look for/what they are doing, trying to breed 'working dogs.'

There are several SchH III ABs and I am getting a pup this year with the goal of taking on Mondio. There are not many working ABs. I'm not trying to say the breed is all great and fabulous but think about it, people stick to what they know. People KNOW GSDs and Mals are great dogs for the work and so why even bother with some other breed? The people most capable of taking a breed like the AB to top level are not interested because the dogs are different and "not worth the time."

All that said it is still true that "most" ABs are not suitable for or capable of work. But I hope to prove that they can be and are with the next pups I get.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

I have seen some very good sport bully breeds work such as AB and APT. There are some APT with PSA and Schutzhund titles. The first thing that one should do is research those people and breeders who actually participate in protection sports and then talk to them about getting a puppy. As with any breed even GSD and MALs you have to go to the right breeder to get the right dog and not every dog can put in the work. Also, keep in mind presas and corsos are not bully breeds they are small mastiffs. There are corso and presas with PSA and Schutzhund titles...but not many. Trust me a mastiff breed with a working title commands a high dollar for their puppies. Mastiff breeds do not work like mals, they like to take down their prey. So, when they bite the pressure that is put on the decoy is unsurpassed by any mal or GSD. You will be hard pressed to find a mastiff that has generations of protection sport in their bloodlines. Frankly most mastiff type breeds are new to protection sports. I believe in judging a dog by his natural capacity to put in the work. You just need to get out to more PP sport tournaments to see these other dogs work.

I love a challenge and prefer to work a breed that is not expected to do the work versus a breed that has 100's of years of breeding to do pp sport. I think that is the mark of a good training. After all it is all in fun...I say get different dogs and work them, take them to trial and see how you like it. Once, my group gets a kennel, I am going to purchase a Bouvier de Flandres...why not, its all in fun.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Coming into this a bit late, but oh well. Thought I'd just toss in my .02 cents to the already overflowing piggy bank here.
> 
> Regarding American Bulldogs. It is true. MOST ABs people see around town or in backyards or bayous are not suitable for work. But since when has MOST of a breeds population that is readily seen been the way to judge an entire breed? If you want to do that then the GSD looks like a breed totally unfit for work in the USA as the dogs you see running around everywhere are primarily show dogs or "bred as pets."
> 
> ...


 
Great post...I say take the challenge and work with a breed that is not expected to do the work. An AB has have lots of dirve and are very athletic, a good trainer will know how to capture the natural ability of your dog and refine him.

By the way what type f dog is in your aviator?...it looks like a crazed wolf....I love it!!!


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Mari -

It is a wolf  It's a wolf biting at water.

I DO work with ABs, and the next pup I get, hopefully this summer or fall, will be an AB from good lines. I have intentions of pursueing Mondio with my ABs. I do mostly my own training in anything that I do though I will definitely be consulting experienced mondio people if I run into problems or have questions. I am very fond of ABs, they are my favorite breed. ABs and Dobermans are my focus, though at this point primarily ABs as I search for Dobes I like.


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## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

I really appreciate the last couple posts. I have a bad habit in getting caught up in success and accomplishment. I really like the idea of working with dogs no one else is really messing with. I've decided I'm for sure getting a Presa and maybe a Boerboel or maybe kick it old skewl and try to find a good Rotty. I think that would be a blast. The whole reason most people do this is for fun and to bond with your dog.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So here's a question for ya.

Lets say you decide to go the bully route. You buy a puppy, then when he's 18 months old its clear that this dog will never achieve anything in sport.

What do you do then????


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Christian, I know what you mean. I have always been partial to "bully" dogs - first the appearence of them I like blocky heads. Then for the temperament. 

I looked at the same breeds you are, the Presa, the Canie, didn't know much about the Boerboel to interest me back then and it came down to the size and athleticism in the AB and finding a breeder that actually had a litter with available pups.

Good luck to you!


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So here's a question for ya.
> 
> Lets say you decide to go the bully route. You buy a puppy, then when he's 18 months old its clear that this dog will never achieve anything in sport.
> 
> What do you do then????


 
For me - keep the dog and get another pup.

And a question for you in return:

How would *any* breed have become successful in sport or work without the focus, diligence, and effort of those passionate and capable of breeding, raising, training, and working them?

I just find it funny sometimes how most everyone knows that "dogs are work" and yet when they encounter a dog that might be a little more work than usual (for them) they say "hell no! worthless, waste of time...":mrgreen:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> How would any breed have become successful in sport or work without the focus, diligence, and effort of those passionate and capable of breeding, raising, training, and working them?
> 
> I just find it funny sometimes how most everyone knows that "dogs are work" and yet when they encounter a dog that might be a little more work than usual (for them) they say "hell no! worthless, waste of time..."


How do YOU think they got that way? Many generations of trainers going through HUNDREDS of dogs to find "THE" perfect dog. Breeding litters, culling, inbreeding, realizing that the dog they like doesn't pass on his traits well to his progeny, so having to start back from scratch to locate that perfect producer once again.

There is an article somewhere from I believe it was Bart Bellon, where he states that he goes through some 50 dogs to find the right dog for competition.

The problem I see more than anything with the bully breeds as working dogs, is that the majority of people compare the dogs to other bully breeds they have seen, and are not seeing the overall picture of the dog. The dog might be really great "for a bully", but when people start breeding these dogs to a higher standard and spending years and years to locate and breed better dogs, only THEN will the breeds really improve.

Improving a breed isn't simply about people getting an AB, titling the dog and calling it a working dog, it is about finding the dog that can really compete at high levels and building on that.

Ofcourse, then people start throwing the "well its not a herder so you cant compare it to them" argument, which begs the question: "Why do you want to compete in herder sports then??"

I am not anti-bully-breed or whatever you want to call it, but I find people who are into those dogs to be pretty unrealistic about their dogs and make alot of excuses for why the dogs do the things they do. Its not just the bully breeds either, its most of the less common breeds in the working circles. People always love "their" dog. If I have learnt anything, it is to be honest with yourself about what your dog is and is not. Too often I see the love of a dog or the love of a breed cloud good judgement. It's like people don't want to hurt the dogs feelings by saying out-loud that he is weak.

I'm not saying not to work them, but I'm saying, unless you want to rehome a bunch of dogs or are willing to always work at low levels, unless you get real lucky, why chance it on a breed that isn't producing consistent top quality dogs?

I'm not saying herders are much different either, lots of people are really impressed with dogs that are pretty crappy. They simply haven't seen enough dogs or understand what they are looking at. Then they go off and breed their SchH1 nervebag that titled with 75/75/75 at a club trial with the same decoy that trained the dog.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

How do I think they got that way? Same way you do, based on your post  Thats my point. Without that effort nothing will really happen.

In regards to why, for me.. because I love this breed and I want to help in the effort to produce the working dogs that myself and others are after in this breed. 

Regarding the sports being for herders: Dogs are dogs. Drive is drive. It does not matter the breed: nerves, prey, defense, fight, sharpness, courage, etc etc these are all defined the same no matter the breed of the dog. It is just that certain breeds have different traits(temperament) and have been bred for different levels of common drives and traits. This is seen not only in breed differences but in different lines of the same breeds. This is the point of having different breeds, aside from aesthetics/phenotype.

Knowing what traits and drives etc are needed for sport and work allows for selection and training of dogs that possess these traits. ABs with the right combination may be harder to find than a Mal or GSD with the right combination but the difference is not that the breed is a herder vs a bully - the difference is the traits and drives in the breed and the lines you are looking at and the sheer numbers of one breed over the other. 

An AB with the same drives and common traits (sharpness for example) as a GSD still has additional traits based on breed and individual personality that it is the handlers job to work with. If a breed just totally lacks the drive or traits required it isn't because the dog isn't a herder it is because the dog is of a breed where the goal was for something else. Border Collies are herders, does the fact that they are herders make them more suitable for a sport "designed for herders" (take SchH for example) than hmm say, a Dobie(not a herder)? ... :mrgreen: 


If you want to get technical think of the total number of GSDs in the world. Then look at all the working GSDs. Now think of the total number of ABs in the world, and their working numbers. Population size may make it easier to find one but I don't think it has much to do with the quality of the dogs that are working. 30 out of 100 .... 300 out of a 1000 ... Still 10%, just more to look at.

All in good fun, of course 8)


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I am quite glad you posted that. Perhaps some of the other bully folks will read it and realize there's some rational people out there. I get so tired of people justifying why their dogs suck with the "its not a herder, you can't compare them to herders" arguments. I wasn't saying that was my view, I was saying thats usually what people say when you point out their dogs flaws.

I look forward to the day that there is more variety in breed choices, but alot will need to happen and alot of people need alot more education or it won't work.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Well thanks 8) and you are welcome.. I try to be reasonable. I can be sassy though :mrgreen: 

I wouldn't look down on you if you did have that viewpoint. I am glad you brought it up because it is a dead point, it is an excuse and not a reason. 

This has been an interesting thread. I like it here I may stick around this forum. :twisted:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Christian, I was wondering if you ever considered a Dogo Argentino. I am no expert on the breed but what little I know about them is that they are definately working dogs used for hunting and killing big game. They have tons of stamina and unlike some other breeds they are not held in reserve and then get released just for the last hurrah after the prey has been run down by hounds. 
I am just adding another option for you to consider as most of the problems I see in bullies and mollosars in general is a lack of stamina! They get one maybe two bites if their lucky then just poop right out if the decoy puts any kind of real pressure on them for more than a 5 second bite! As I said earlier, Just a thought. :-k


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

As far as the Dogo's go, they're damn good dogs. Natural wind, mouth, and they've even been used as PSD's in their native country. Definitely talk to the Dogoman if you're considering this breed.

With regard to Presa and Boerboel, I think you're gonna be hard pressed to find a good one from either breed, but moreso with Presa. Just not enough people breeding them for anything but size/looks. However, if you're hell bent on a Presa, I would have to recommend Red Star as someone else already has. Good dogs that are actually worked. For Boerboels, I think the best kennel in the country is Harris Boerboels in Kansas. 

And to Mike; with regard to bull breeds, let's not forget that there *are* people out there forwarding the breed's use and reputation. Just look at what Chris Fraize did with his little dog Rumble--a dual certified PSD. Who would have ever thought that would be possible? With the threat of BSL, certainly not me, that's for sure. Nonetheless, I am glad to see it and it inspires me to ponder what these dogs are capable of.




Andy.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Will Kline said:


> Christian, I was wondering if you ever considered a Dogo Argentino. I am no expert on the breed but what little I know about them is that they are definately working dogs used for hunting and killing big game. They have tons of stamina and unlike some other breeds they are not held in reserve and then get released just for the last hurrah after the prey has been run down by hounds.
> I am just adding another option for you to consider as most of the problems I see in bullies and mollosars in general is a lack of stamina! They get one maybe two bites if their lucky then just poop right out if the decoy puts any kind of real pressure on them for more than a 5 second bite! As I said earlier, Just a thought. :-k





Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I am quite glad you posted that. Perhaps some of the other bully folks will read it and realize there's some rational people out there. I get so tired of people justifying why their dogs suck with the "its not a herder, you can't compare them to herders" arguments. I wasn't saying that was my view, I was saying thats usually what people say when you point out their dogs flaws.
> 
> I look forward to the day that there is more variety in breed choices, but alot will need to happen and alot of people need alot more education or it won't work.





Andy Andrews said:


> As far as the Dogo's go, they're damn good dogs. Natural wind, mouth, and they've even been used as PSD's in their native country. Definitely talk to the Dogoman if you're considering this breed.
> 
> With regard to Presa and Boerboel, I think you're gonna be hard pressed to find a good one from either breed, but moreso with Presa. Just not enough people breeding them for anything but size/looks. However, if you're hell bent on a Presa, I would have to recommend Red Star as someone else already has. Good dogs that are actually worked. For Boerboels, I think the best kennel in the country is Harris Boerboels in Kansas.
> 
> ...


 
You guys have some very strong opinions about several breeds of dogs that you have lumped to bully breeds. First of all Bully breeds consist of APT, AB, Stadfordshire Terriers, etc. Presas, Dogos, Corsos and the like are mastiffs. Another thing you cannot judge several breed together, they are quite different. I would not say that presas, pitts and ABs cannot take the pressure of most sports. What sports are you involved in? Shutzhund is somewhat soft and the decoy/helper likes forearm bites without a lot of pressure... Now PSA, APPDA, K9 pro Sport and SDA, put a lot of pressure on the dogs and most Mals and GSDs cannot handle the sport. Only the best will excel. I have witnessed a PSA trial were a Mal and a GSD were run of the field and a pitt went on to not only title but but to place. So, before you make generalization you should do your homework and experience as many trails as possible before you make those blanket statements. 

I do agree that not every dog regardless of the breed will do the work. You must be selective and find a dogs that is fearless with a lot of drive. Mastiff breeds are difficult to train because you must not only train them in obedience and bite work but you must put them through endurance training. (Your best bet is with a smaller mastiff like a corso, presa or dogo. It will be difficult for the larger mastiffs to jump and move.) That is right you must work them out every day. They need to run miles to get into shape, in addition to practicing on jumps and other exercises. This is not necessary with most Mals and GSD and most mastiff owners are not willing to go that extra mile with their dogs to get them into shape. Most mastiffs spend their day lounging around doing nothing making them fat and lazy.

Here is a pitbull that is being trained by Kustom K9 in Atlanta. Blue Boy is only two and still learning but his training is going well. He tracks, retrieves and his agility and obedience is good. These are pictures from the APPDA Mock Trial in Augusta, GA....


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

I don't see where I lumped breeds together, but being a person with a fair degree of knowledge and experience with bull breeds, I don't think I need to be told which fall into those categories. However, it should be noted that 'mastiffs' such as the Presa and CC(and I would speculate to include the Dogo somewhere along the line) owe a debt of gratitude to the APBT for the infusions that helped spawn the rebirth of those breeds...so the lines of what are 'bull' and 'mastiff' get somewhat clouded.

Regardless though, with respect to what you've said about conditioning, isn't that true of any breed? 

Here's a damn good looking Boerboel on a custom slatmill made by Martin's K-9:













Andy.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Andy Andrews said:


> I don't see where I lumped breeds together, but being a person with a fair degree of knowledge and experience with bull breeds, I don't think I need to be told which fall into those categories. However, it should be noted that 'mastiffs' such as the Presa and CC(and I would speculate to include the Dogo somewhere along the line) owe a debt of gratitude to the APBT for the infusions that helped spawn the rebirth of those breeds...so the lines of what are 'bull' and 'mastiff' get somewhat clouded.
> 
> Regardless though, with respect to what you've said about conditioning, isn't that true of any breed?
> 
> ...


You are right Andy about conditioning with most dogs but mastiffs can become winded more quickly and really need to stay in shape if they are going to participate in a trial with multiple obedience and bite senarios.

Wow, that Boerboel is huge..I have never seen one fly into the air and bite..so truthfully I cannot speak to their ability to work or withstand the pressure of the fight. I need one of the slatmills on my lazy days to train my dog. Thanks for the photo... :mrgreen:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Mari Steward said:


> You guys have some very strong opinions about several breeds of dogs that you have lumped to bully breeds. First of all Bully breeds consist of APT, AB, Stadfordshire Terriers, etc. Presas, Dogos, Corsos and the like are mastiffs. Another thing you cannot judge several breed together, they are quite different. I would not say that presas, pitts and ABs cannot take the pressure of most sports. What sports are you involved in? Shutzhund is somewhat soft and the decoy/helper likes forearm bites without a lot of pressure... Now PSA, APPDA, K9 pro Sport and SDA, put a lot of pressure on the dogs and most Mals and GSDs cannot handle the sport. Only the best will excel. I have witnessed a PSA trial were a Mal and a GSD were run of the field and a pitt went on to not only title but but to place. So, before you make generalization you should do your homework and experience as many trails as possible before you make those blanket statements.
> 
> I do agree that not every dog regardless of the breed will do the work. You must be selective and find a dogs that is fearless with a lot of drive. Mastiff breeds are difficult to train because you must not only train them in obedience and bite work but you must put them through endurance training. (Your best bet is with a smaller mastiff like a corso, presa or dogo. It will be difficult for the larger mastiffs to jump and move.) That is right you must work them out every day. They need to run miles to get into shape, in addition to practicing on jumps and other exercises. This is not necessary with most Mals and GSD and most mastiff owners are not willing to go that extra mile with their dogs to get them into shape. Most mastiffs spend their day lounging around doing nothing making them fat and lazy.


Now Mari, if you look at my post you will notice that I said the Dogo was just another dog to consider. I never said it was a bully, although it had bullyblood added to it during the creation of the breed. The only thing I said in refference to bullies and mollosars is that they tend to be lacking in stamina. 

I participate in French Ring presently with a Mal pup and while I may be partial to Mals in general if you have ever read some of my other posts you will see that I have said before that there are diff breeds for diff folks and I can appreciate that. Even the fluffy little ankle biters out there make someone happy to own them. 

I understand that some people out there enjoy their breed and wish to compete in different venues of sports or work and again I say " go for it " however, it is just my personal opinion (which I am entitled to) that those other breeds will not do as well because as was stated in another post...30 out of 300 v. 300 out of 3000 cuts those chances. 

You could liken it to winning the lotto....someone has got to win but your odds sure do suck. ](*,)


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Now PSA, APPDA, K9 pro Sport and SDA, put a lot of pressure on the dogs and most Mals and GSDs cannot handle the sport.


Thats a pretty bold statement to make right there......... espeially since K9 ProSports is the biggest joke of a sport I've ever watched, unless they've made significant changes over the past 3 years.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Months ago, I was helping my brother in law choose a breed for SchH. He wanted something different as well. We looked at Dobes, ABs, Dogos and Rotts. He ended up with a Rott. We felt that was a great choice. He really liked the Dogo, they seem to fit the bill better than a PC or CC, but they are a little harder to come by. And even though, the Dogo is called the _Argentenian Mastiff, _ the Bulldog, Boxer & Bull Terrier were involved in the Dogo's creation. 

Jennifer, good post on the %'s, that is what I like to tell everyone as well. There are a lot more shit GSDs than ABs _if you want to look at total population._ And there are a lot better GSDs than ABs, _if you want to look at total population._

I still say Boxer, APBT, AB, in that order. If you're thinking of a Boerboel, there is a man who works one and is trying to do more. He has a SchH A on one, but it's not a better choice than a PC, or CC.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Alex Corral said:


> Months ago, I was helping my brother in law choose a breed for SchH. He wanted something different as well. We looked at Dobes, ABs, Dogos and Rotts. He ended up with a Rott. We felt that was a great choice. He really liked the Dogo, they seem to fit the bill better than a PC or CC, but they are a little harder to come by. And even though, the Dogo is called the _Argentenian Mastiff, _the Bulldog, Boxer & Bull Terrier were involved in the Dogo's creation.
> 
> Jennifer, good post on the %'s, that is what I like to tell everyone as well. There are a lot more shit GSDs than ABs _if you want to look at total population._ And there are a lot better GSDs than ABs, _if you want to look at total population._
> 
> I still say Boxer, APBT, AB, in that order. If you're thinking of a Boerboel, there is a man who works one and is trying to do more. He has a SchH A on one, but it's not a better choice than a PC, or CC.


 
Alex,

That is a nice boxer you have in your Avatar. Can you post some more pictures? I love to see boxers work. They have their own style of getting things done.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Will Kline said:


> Now Mari, if you look at my post you will notice that I said the Dogo was just another dog to consider. I never said it was a bully, although it had bullyblood added to it during the creation of the breed. The only thing I said in refference to bullies and mollosars is that they tend to be lacking in stamina.
> 
> I participate in French Ring presently with a Mal pup and while I may be partial to Mals in general if you have ever read some of my other posts you will see that I have said before that there are diff breeds for diff folks and I can appreciate that. Even the fluffy little ankle biters out there make someone happy to own them.
> 
> ...


Will,


I am new to this forum and I have not had the opportunity to read all of your posts. You are right I should not have lumped all you guys together in my post. Only one person referred to mastiff types as being bullys. What sport do you participate in?


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Thats a pretty bold statement to make right there......... espeially since K9 ProSports is the biggest joke of a sport I've ever watched, unless they've made significant changes over the past 3 years.


 
Mike,

Let me rephrase...Most Dogs cannot handle those sports...not just GSD and Mals. As for K9 Pro Sport it is what is is? What sports do you compete in? :???:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Hey! lol! That (Edit: Red Star Kennel) is the group I train with!  Good people.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Jeff if you can be a little more civilized and ask me specific questions I will be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge.

See here is the funny thing, I would bet (know) that I have more actual experience with the breed than you do, yet you would be happy to answer my questions. I talked to JD Johnson for a long time about the breed and what his goals were, and he said that it was not for sport. Almost everyone that was breeding these dogs to do sport has a different breed now from when I first started training the AB's for PP almost 20 years ago.

When you see the same thing over and over again, specifically that the drive dries up when control is introduced, then you just quit using the dogs, as that is fairly important, ya know.......... control? ? ? ?

Funny how the insecurities come boiling out when reality is introduced to a discussion.

Got to get back and read the rest.


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## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

I love the Dogo idea, very cool dogs.

I'll say again this is for fun for me. I'm not looking to make a living off of it. I'm not looking to start a million dollar breeding program of my spawn LOL. I'm not going to sell DVDs of my "expert" training success. I just want to work a dog that is an off breed as a personal challenge. I am of the opinion genetics is a huge piece but "dogs are dogs", and are all capable. Training methods probably need to differ and bite styles are clearly not the same. Mals are like launching what I call "dog missiles", a Boerboel is like being hit by a tank. Mastiffy breeds may be slower but I don't know any man who can outrun any dog LOL.

I have been researching Presas for some months and have found a few working breeders that I'm comfortable with, Most with Red Star roots. Others I like are from over seas. 

I really appreciate all the suggestions and I am very open to more, so if anyone want to post or PM breeders of working off breeds that would be awesome. Domestic or foreign. Presa, Corso, Boerboel, Dogo Argentino, Rotty, Dobie, AB, APBT, and anything else worth looking into.
If everyone posted the couple breeders they probably know in off breeds maybe it could develop into sort of a forum resource list? 8) (just an idea)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:...Most Dogs cannot handle those sports...not just GSD and Mals. 

This always amuses me about these types of sports. The owners themselves for the most part are nervebags, and then they cannot remember that we are the ones with opposable thumbs, so naturally we can make a dogs life miserable in our well protected, padded suits, with dogs conditioned to bite and stay in the same place.

I always laugh and wonder if they are looking for the absolutely DUMBEST dog they can find, or what exactly it is they are looking for.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:...Most Dogs cannot handle those sports...not just GSD and Mals.
> 
> This always amuses me about these types of sports. The owners themselves for the most part are nervebags, and then they cannot remember that we are the ones with opposable thumbs, so naturally we can make a dogs life miserable in our well protected, padded suits, with dogs conditioned to bite and stay in the same place.
> 
> I always laugh and wonder if they are looking for the absolutely DUMBEST dog they can find, or what exactly it is they are looking for.


 
Jeff you make a fine point, a good trained PP dog of any breed would maime a man without the big padded suit. After all, this sport thing is just in fun. 

The problem is that for many, these titles make the difference in how much they can sell their pups for, especially rare breeds. A titled rare breed dog commands thosands of dollars for their pups. I assume the same goes for the top Mal or GSD in any sport.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I talked to JD Johnson for a long time about the breed and what his goals were, and he said that it was not for sport. Almost everyone that was breeding these dogs to do sport has a different breed now from when I first started training the AB's for PP almost 20 years ago.


This is why I stay away from Johnson dogs. JDJ used English Bullogs in his breeding program to get bullier dogs that were to his liking. Are JDJ dogs all you have worked? If so I completely understand your problem with the breed. JDJ has the different breed, IMO. He is the one that took the breed away from its purpose and just wanting gnarly looking critters.

Regarding control.. thats a training issue.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Mari Steward said:


> Alex,
> 
> That is a nice boxer you have in your Avatar. Can you post some more pictures? I love to see boxers work. They have their own style of getting things done.


Thanks Mari. Yes, they definitely have their own mind of what they want to do. I'm learning haha. I don't have any other pics of training, but hopefully soon now that it's warming up and I'll post some.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christian Watts said:


> I am in an ongoing debate that Mals and GSDs are higher level workers than any of the Bully breeds.
> I'd like to hear what others think are the best Bullies for things like Iron Dog, Shutzhund or PSA.
> I want to work a Presa myself but am getting a lot of negative feedback on the idea.
> So what would be the hot set up for a Bully fan? Corso? AB? Presa? Rotty? Boerboel? Fila? Boxer?
> ...


Hay kid why do you want one of these big clodhopper dogs. Who's gonna help ya drag them out of the shade on a 90 degree day help ya lift it in the truck to get to training. Once ya get there you can drag him out and yank him around trying to get him to follow ya around so it mite appear to look like he could be heeling all the wile he's looking back at the truck parked in the shade thinking about the 5 gallon gas can of water he's going to slobber down in 2 minutes time. I think you better go watch some of these dogs before you get all whipped up about one of these 4 legged heart attacks.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Mike I agree that the bully type of the bully breeds, the dogs that have been bred for wide chests and low stature tend not to have much in the way of athletic ability but traditional/correct CCs, PCs, APBTs and ABs are quite athletic. They can jump, are agile, and when they put on the steam they are FAST!

It's pretty simple..
Athletic...









Not Athletic...


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Jennifer,

Now your post is so funny. This is a never ending argument but it is fun. I have a two year old hyper active corso. My goal is for him to perform at the top of his abilities and if we pick up some titles on the way great. My corso is 27 inches tall and 115 lbs. He is Athletic and agile. and can leap over a building with a single bound.  Bottom line participating in working sports is fun and I like the challenge of using a non traditional dog. I have a rottie also but he hates bite suits and sleeves. He would rather bite fresh. He has been known to jump over the suit and go for a face.  He is 24 inches tall and 85 lbs. he is good at agility so i am going to go that route with him. 


I say compete with the breed type that you want. I thank that breed should be judged based on the way they fight...a quick fast strike for mals, intense strikes for sheppards, High flying action for pitts and ABs and strong take down and body shake for corsos, presas and dogos in additionto superb obedience and quick outs for all.

The bite is just a 1/3 of what is important in protection sports. 3/4 of what is important is complete control and excellent obedience. I am always more impressed with handlers that have the best control over their dog and those are the handlers that get the highest points.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I was goofing on the kid some The first dog I titled to Schutzhund III was a Rott. Though he wasnt such a good one. We have a really nice Rotty in the club with a excellent handler that can motivate that dog and make his obedience look as flashy as any Mal. As for your breed AB and the pits and staff's I have seen many that can a do sport that good and look like they like it. 
I figured I get jumped but I wasnt going to re rite it because I was going to bed. Its the 100+ pound behemouths I was really referring to. 
The main point of my post was for him to go out watch these dogs work and train. There a lot more work to train and they beat the living hell out of the helper.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I was goofing on the kid some The first dog I titled to Schutzhund III was a Rott. Though he wasnt such a good one. We have a really nice Rotty in the club with a excellent handler that can motivate that dog and make his obedience look as flashy as any Mal. As for your breed AB and the pits and staff's I have seen many that can a do sport that good and look like they like it.
> I figured I get jumped but I wasnt going to re rite it because I was going to bed. Its the 100+ pound behemouths I was really referring to.
> The main point of my post was for him to go out watch these dogs work and train. There a lot more work to train and they beat the living hell out of the helper.


Mike,

I love to see the face of the helper when they are being crushed by a strong jawed corso, pitt, rott or presa. That is have the fun of watching them work. 

Are you just a Schutzhund cmpetitor or do you do other sports?


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> There a lot more work to train and they beat the living hell out of the helper.


Depends on the trainer.

Oh I was trying to be light hearted  I've seen the overly bully type dogs move. Or. well... try to. It's comical but sad at the same time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I love to see the face of the helper when they are being crushed by a strong jawed corso, pitt, rott or presa. That is have the fun of watching them work. 

And you wonder why we goof on these dogs. What I like is running the dogs off and watching how crushed people get. It is hilarious to watch when you can keep the dog off of you to the point of confusion and then run it back to it's truck. Most that I have worked don't want to bite me to begin with.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

I think he was just funnin with me, pointing out see what some of the dogs can do. In any breed you can point out specific achievers. Red Star had a dog "Cona" 27 inches 125lbs not the fastest but startlingly spry and athletic from the vids I've seen. A great combo of strength, size and agility. He could get up and over walls etc. I don't need the fastest, highest jumping, speedster. I rather enjoy a dog who can take a man down and is still reliable and stable.
This has been a great thread for me. It has taken my thought process in different directions and assessments than I first considered. This is what I was hoping for, and it made me think about my value of accomplishment vs. dogs I know I enjoy, and which is more important to me.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mari Steward said:


> Mike,
> 
> I love to see the face of the helper when they are being crushed by a strong jawed corsocorsopittrottpittpresarottr presa. That is have the fun of watching them work.
> 
> AreSchutzhundacmpetitorSchutzhund cmpetitor or do you do other sports?


I'm training my 3rd Schutzhund dog. Well Mari I think its time you start looking for a bite suit you need to be schooled.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'm training my 3rd Schutzhund dog. Well Mari I think its time you start looking for a bite suit you need to be schooled.


Mike,

I have had a bite suit on and was schooled by a Dutch Sheppard and a APBT...it was not pretty. The shook me like a rag dog ( and the dutch was a 9 month old puppy). The pitt knocked me on my butt with a light hit. I have been demoted to being a puppy helper...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm out of this one


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Just what I always wanted. Thanks Santa!!(click the photo )


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I have owned 7 Rottweilers. 5 of them from import working lines. They are very lean and fine tuned. I ove them and actually work the street as a police officer with one. I have worked many other breeds as well. The most consistant dog IMO is the MAL. You don't need to own one to win but you will have to beat one to win.:smile:


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## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

Andy Andrews said:


> Just what I always wanted. Thanks Santa!!(click the photo )


ROFLMAO!!! Vid is awesome! those dogs are just sad. I generally refrain from speaking about others dogs but those poor animals look uncomfortable being alive.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

You know Jeff I never thought I would ever say this but I will have to agree with you. I have worked a few "off" breeds in my day. Pitts, AB, Corsos, and even a Fila. Out of all of them a very select few have caught my attention. A pitt named Blue boy, he is very nice, a pitt named Shaka (I think Garland ownes him) and a few Corsos. Xander and Boggie Owned by David Kuneman, and Mojo and Mac owned by Carlos ??. That is it. And being in the south there are alot of bully and Corsos entering trials. But to say the knock decoys down would be a very far stretch. They do bite hard, but not any harder then a Mal or GSD. And never have I seen a decoy taken down by one. They are wrist and lower arms biters by nature. Xander and Mojo will take a nice bicep bite but that is it. The rest hang out around the wrist or cuff. Lack of confidence and the pressure gets to them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've always heard/believed that wrist biters (any breed) do so because that was the furthest point it coud get from the decoy and still bite. Lack of confidence!


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Matt Hammond said:


> And being in the south there are alot of bully and Corsos entering trials.


Not trying to debate your experience in any way here Matt but I would like to make a comment regarding locality. The population density of bully breeds, more specifically the AB, in the south doesn't mean much other than the straight fact that there are indeed lots of them around to look at. Using the south for population density to judge overall quality is like going to the ghetto looking for a seeing eye dog. 

Most of the ABs floating around are Johnson bred - dogs that have been bred for looks and not for ability of any sort much like the American GSD. Taking into consideration the different types and lines of dogs, how fair or smart would it be for a bully fan to start evaluating American GSDs and thus determine the entire GSD breed to be crap? 

People don't know they have s**t dogs until the fact is shown to them. I've known people with american GSDs who think that just because the dog is a GSD it could have been/be a police K9. 

ABs and other bully breeds definitely have their issues and overall you will have a lot of work in dealing with them. But the work involved is in finding the right bloodlines and the right dog, not that the dog is so much more difficult because of the breed.

I find it amusing at times that training is never brought up in breed disputes. Its as if training were not an issue at all, as if the dogs that "failed" did so entirely because of their breed and not for any other reason.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> I find it amusing at times that training is never brought up in breed disputes. Its as if training were not an issue at all, as if the dogs that "failed" did so entirely because of their breed and not for any other reason.


Training has very little to do with judging the quality of a dog. What is the point of taking a weak dog and training him to look good? If the dog is strong then an experienced person will see it regardless of the dogs training.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I agree, I was not saying that a weak dog can be made otherwise with training, I was trying to say (and apparently failed at) that a weak dog is not weak because of its breed alone and that training and handling plays a part as well. That's why I said did sp "entirely" because of the breed.

My point was that it is not because a dog is a this breed or a that breed that it was a poor quality dog, it is because of a combination of genetics and training. There are strong and weak members of every breed. 

I was not referring to Matts experience in my statement regarding training, it was just an observation that in most breed disputes (this breed is better than that breed nanner!!) training and handling are left out as if it doesn't matter the way a dog is handled or trained.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Oi I am too tired to type. 

I edited to fix spelling and still spelled it wrong. Should have read:

sp was supposed to be so.. 

And to add I am well aware that there are lots and lots of really crappy ABs and bully type dogs around everywhere, this is because Americans did to them what they did to the GSD, looks became the only priority. But it is not correct to say that the entire breed is crap and that is it because of the breed itself. It is from bad breeding practices that lead to the deterioration of the breed as seen by most. The trendy dogs are more commonly seen because they are trendy.

And again the comment regarding training was an observation, not an excuse for actual weak and poor quality dogs.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I was goofing on the kid some The first dog I titled to Schutzhund III was a Rott. Though he wasnt such a good one. We have a really nice Rotty in the club with a excellent handler that can motivate that dog and make his obedience look as flashy as any Mal.


Agree Mike. This is a young Rott bitch doing obedience here in the UK (only has a BH so far), but tons of drive....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdD8BCMUs14


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Not trying to debate your experience in any way here Matt but I would like to make a comment regarding locality. The population density of bully breeds, more specifically the AB, in the south doesn't mean much other than the straight fact that there are indeed lots of them around to look at. Using the south for population density to judge overall quality is like going to the ghetto looking for a seeing eye dog.



My experience has nothing to do with the fact the the climate in the south allows for more trials, with more trials it offers you a wider exposer to different breeds. I have worked plenty of trials in my day and the bully breeds and corso breeds are the ones that consistantly the lack the drive and confidence to do the work, now some will work but there are more that will not then there are that will. Training aside if the dog does not have it it does not have it. The problem is that the few that do make it are over bred and pups sold for up wards of $2k just because the dog has a title.

Jennifer where abouts in Oregon are you from. I grew up in Junction City, OR........GO DUCK!!!


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Oh trust me I'm not trying to dispute your experience  I'm not saying that the dogs you have seen are not weak, I trust in your ability to evaluate a dog when you see one. I know there are a lot of crappy bullies around, I've seen them. I waded through that BS getting my first AB and again for about 4 months in searching for my next pup after Cajun was stolen. 

But my goal in this is to be part of bringing the AB back to where it should be. I am fully prepared for this life long project. I am extremely passionate about this breed, I am also very fond of Dobies and plan to work with them as well but the AB is my main focus. 

I will never say that ABs in general are a great breed, but I will also not say that GSDs in general are a great breed because of the American Showline fiasco. Same thing with me and Johnson ABs. 

There are great dogs, great lines, great breeders, and great trainers, but there is no perfect breed. The human factor will always get in the way. For some reason people love to change and ruin things.

I am in Medford  Grew up here, lived in Portland, Killeen/Fort Hood Texas, and also Prospect, Oregon. Go Ducks indeed, I just moved back from Wisconsin(lived in Milwaukee, Waukesha and in Hartford) never did attempt to switch to "Go Pack!" ... couldn't stomach it..!


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> I am in Medford  Grew up here, lived in Portland, Killeen/Fort Hood Texas, and also Prospect, Oregon. Go Ducks indeed,


Oh man, you just don't realize that you have made a friend for life. Matt is a Ducks fan through and through, hence the color of his old bite suit. At least we have gotten his wife to wear some UGA stuff though, he just want go for it. All we talk about is the day when Oregon plays Georgia, he won't admit it but there WILL be some feathers plucked that day. :grin:


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jay, Matt just has taste, can't fault him for that 

Go Ducks.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Jay, Matt just has taste, can't fault him for that
> 
> Go Ducks.


I certainly don't fault Matt for having taste, I question that fact, but never fault him. My question though; What the heck is a Duck?

DFrost


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

For you Duck fans,

I lived in Eugene about 10 minutes from U of O after we got married.

My sister and her husband live in Harrisburg (right next to JC). What about the Beavers? 

Ducks are birds with webbed feet....:lol: 

Peace  

Julie


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

duck: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage. Oh and also the football team that is going to stomp the crap out of the dawgs in 2015 and 2016. Can't wait for that............I swear to you I bleed Green and Yellow.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> For you Duck fans,
> 
> I lived in Eugene about 10 minutes from U of O after we got married.
> 
> ...


Are you for real? The Beavers. Come on. Actually my wife's Cousin's Husband Shane House played for Oregon State. To this day he will not call during football season.......


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

So what is the consensus on this? 

Yes, there are not that many Bullys that can do the work, but as Jennifer said, that should not be blamed on the breed. I duno, maybe the physical appearance of a Bully has led more people to breed "just for looks" than anything else and that's the reason these dogs are in the shape they're in. 

A Bully bred for looks is just as shit as a GSD bred for looks. No 2 ways about it. 

I know a lot of people hate to see "Bully people" trying to do a sport that they think we shouldn't mess with. But you really can't blame the few people who are trying to do something for those breeds that involves the dog to have courage & intelligence. Some people just have a breed they love and will try to do whatever they can do improve it. To some people, that is more important than getting high in xxx, or winning national events. I think someone said, the BST was a bonehead test, so what should Bully people do? Dogfighting? 

You really can't blame the Bully people for trying to improve their breed, whether those sports/tests were originally made for them or not.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Sorry when every someone mentions the ducks my mind starts to drift.......Ok back on topic. 

Bullys bad
Mals Good

OK thats done what next:grin:


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

And yeah, ducks are those birds that are always in water with webbed feet and make a quacking noise. My dog loves to eat them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I think someone said, the BST was a bonehead test,

Here is the thing I thought was the funniest thing about all that, they constantly say that the AB's and pits are not herders, but then they make the test pretty much Sch. I feel sorry for AB owners wading through that shallow gene pool. Why they chose what they chose is beyond me. Just goes to show that the people that know the least, want to be in charge the most.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Alex Corral said:


> I know a lot of people hate to see "Bully people" trying to do a sport that they think we shouldn't mess with.


I agree with a lot of what you said, but have to disagree with this part. I don't think people hate to see the bully people trying to do a sport, I think what they get tired of is the people who go on about how awesome the dogs are for the sport, how much better they are then the herders, how they would beat the herders if they trialed, etc when the numbers just don't back this up. Most of the people I know have a "show me, don't tell me" attitude. Not just about the bulldogs but other "off breeds" but when they see an off breed out there doing well, they are some of the first people to support them.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I think someone said, the BST was a bonehead test,
> 
> Here is the thing I thought was the funniest thing about all that, they constantly say that the AB's and pits are not herders, but then they make the test pretty much Sch. I feel sorry for AB owners wading through that shallow gene pool. Why they chose what they chose is beyond me. Just goes to show that the people that know the least, want to be in charge the most.


 
Jeff,

Forgive me if you already answered these questions, but what kind of dogs do you have? Also, what do sports do you participate in?


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

I jumped on the american bull dog wagon about 15 years ago or better, when the Bamma boy stuff poped up, savage looking dogs, ( the hipe of the baddest dog there is) our hole project wound out to be a schizo disaster, ( and yes the johnson stuff is a joke, the pic of mean machine was them getting him to stand up long enough to take the pic) years latter I saw a line herding pigs and thaught these are well breed and seem at home, were they belong, I love the look but dont want one,

My favorite breed is pitt bull and as far as bite work gos I have mixed feelings, I have trained a few for people for protection and I never had problems, and I have had some savage pitts that would do bite work very well, but trying to breed them for sport I dont know, if you find a (cold) one that hates man then go for it, other than that I dont know,


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I love to see the face of the helper when they are being crushed by a strong jawed corso, pitt, rott or presa. That is have the fun of watching them work.
> 
> And you wonder why we goof on these dogs. What I like is running the dogs off and watching how crushed people get.
> 
> ...


If we are talking about the same thing, I have developed a simular technique, the trick is just like a bull fighter, to keep enough distance to there speed buildup and then move out of the way when they close to make them miss, not a secret but trying to keep it up for as long as you make it sound, on a lean and trained dog, you must be super man, I wish I still had KAZE, RIP, to help you out on this one


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Oh trust me I'm not trying to dispute your experience  I'm not saying that the dogs you have seen are not weak, I trust in your ability to evaluate a dog when you see one. I know there are a lot of crappy bullies around, I've seen them. I waded through that BS getting my first AB and again for about 4 months in searching for my next pup after Cajun was stolen.
> 
> But my goal in this is to be part of bringing the AB back to where it should be. I am fully prepared for this life long project. I am extremely passionate about this breed, I am also very fond of Dobies and plan to work with them as well but the AB is my main focus.
> 
> ...


 
I feel for you, AB are awsome looking and have potetial, If your a real dog person and willing to select the best and cull the rest for ever, the problem started when people like johnson breed them for what he liked and not for working, then to gather up everyones "look what I breed" was a disaster, I figured the AB has come along since my experience, or not, I dont know, but anything with mean machine in it is not good, years after my experience I looked at some of the bamma boy stuff and it acted better, one of the best obiedeint dogs I ever had was a johnson but it had droppy eyes and ears like a hound


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I think someone said, the BST was a bonehead test,
> 
> Here is the thing I thought was the funniest thing about all that, they constantly say that the AB's and pits are not herders, but then they make the test pretty much Sch. I feel sorry for AB owners wading through that shallow gene pool. Why they chose what they chose is beyond me. Just goes to show that the people that know the least, want to be in charge the most.


Jeff, I know what you mean. But really since the Bulldog's main purpose is now illegal (thank God) and weight pulling doesn't really involve courage or brains, what should a Bully sport involve? Are herders the only breed who diserve a chance at showing they can work for their master?


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said, but have to disagree with this part. I don't think people hate to see the bully people trying to do a sport, I think what they get tired of is the people who go on about how awesome the dogs are for the sport, how much better they are then the herders, how they would beat the herders if they trialed, etc when the numbers just don't back this up. Most of the people I know have a "show me, don't tell me" attitude. Not just about the bulldogs but other "off breeds" but when they see an off breed out there doing well, they are some of the first people to support them.


Kadi, I know there are a lot of people who will support a Bully in protection sports and a Herder in weight pull. I'm one of them, but when I was looking for a club to join, I had many people tell me I had the wrong breed. The club I joined was really the only club that was pretty excited I wanted to work a Boxer. Our newest member has a PC puppy. Guess what? Same exact reactions from other clubs and/or trainers. That's why I said "I know" people who don't like to see other breeds in this sport. Hate may have been a bit much, but maybe not. And really, if you look at this whole thread, the majority of the posters don't think Bulldogs can or should do the work. 

Also, I have yet to meet someone say a Bulldog can do a better job than the herder, at least I don't say that. I admitted it in my first post on this board.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I know of one boxer that'll work as good and if not better than any Mal or GSD. She belongs to my sister, and let me tell ya, this boxer is NICE.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> I know of one boxer that'll work as good and if not better than any Mal or GSD. She belongs to my sister, and let me tell ya, this boxer is NICE.


I gess its posible but every one I have worked had no wind over heated and lacked in bite because of the short muzzle


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

How where their entries?


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

I dont know sport lingo I only know personal and proporty protection but if you mean the way they hit, can be very strong and determined


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The wife of one of the club guys just got a Boxer pup. Now, if we can just convince her that we'll help train it. :grin: :grin: :grin:


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Boxers and Rottweilers are now the poster children for accomplished "bully breeds"?

That seems kind of disengenous.

I imagine they've both been products of the same culture of brutal German selection and cohesive large scale planning. I really don't know for sure, though. Just seems consistent with how they tended to do things. Heck, back when I was into the tropical fish thing, Germans had been known for their skill in breeding them as well. They were the first to get neon tetras to get in on in captivity.

I never even really thought of them as "bully breeds", and certainly not in the same league as...well...this american phenomenon of ours. But this is just based on casual observation. I know, I know, I just have to find the right lines and right breeders.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2008)

Germany, belgium, holland, czech republic....maybe a couple others.

Just skimming the histories of these places and the development of their respective flagship dogs, where is there anything comparable in it's sheer scale, organization, and clear objectives?

That alone should answer the basic points of contention.

Me? I always loved the physical package of the pitbull, for a number of subjective and practical reasons. The crap one would have had to wade through to meet my objectives was simply overwhelming for a newcomer to dogs in general. Heck, GSDs were bad enough, but at least I could point to enough dogs I saw (which I really liked) and could start to see common themes in the pedigrees. It was a start, if nothing else. Being on the outside looking in, I got the impression it was some sort of conspiracy which has kept the bully breeds consistently out of certain sports and working venues. I almost bought into that at one point. See second paragraph.


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## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

I think as the Bully and molasser enthusiast base builds new sports that aren't necessarily so suited for the herders may develop. Initially there will be a back lash from Old schoolers but I think there seems to be some evidence to suggest dog sports are on the rise in popularity. If there was diversity in task so all breeds were on a level playing field they would probably grow even faster.

Iron Dog has gained some momentum. The other sporters immediately try to invalidate it which is sad. In spite of that it seems to be growing and there are lots of people who enjoy it.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

I was interested so I googled iron dog, is that the iron dog international? they have a vid of one trial and one of the things was letting the dogs hang on a rope, I ruined a dogs neck doing that when I was new to pitts a long time ago, he was never the same, at first he wouldnt hang any more and then his one eye sank into his head, I took him to a chiropractor and then within 6 month his eye popped back out, flirt pole yes, letting any dog hang, DONT EVER DO IT


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

angelo lombardi said:


> *DONT EVER DO IT*


You're serious, aren't you?



Andy.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

For what it's worth, I'm vaguely considering putting in an application for one of Michael Vick's "fighting" dogs that are now being fostered out in San Fransisco by Bad Rap. I'd love nothing more than to make a certified therapy dog with a CGC and TT on one of those dogs. The one I'm interested in is Ernie, a patchy eyed white and brindle (my fav!) who's about 1/4 into the video:

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/vick/now.html


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

yes I am, after damaging my pitts neck I talked to a lot of dog men about it and they never let any of there pitts hang for the same reason,

If you want to have fun and bond and school your dogs for some ability I use it on my terriers and shepherds as well , go to a feed store were they sell horse stuff, get a buggy whip they come in all sizes i find the inbetween size is good and some have a little neuse at the end so you can pull a sock threw and tighten it, dont work you dogs in grass they get to much traction and can cause injurys, dont work them on concrete, find a dirt area were they wont get hirt, and dont let them do flips

I also do what I call rock skipping were I hike up foot hills, it easy for me I live on the side of one, and have your dogs follow you as you jump from rock to rock, its fun watching your dogs learn


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

I'm not sure who these 'dogmen' were that you've spoken with, but to each their own. 



Andy.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Angelo, it's called a spring pole. It isn't any more dangerous than any other sport or activity. One major factor is that you don't just have a rope tied to a tree, you must use a spring to provide some give. Like anything else you need to train and condition a dog for it - start low and increase height as the dog gains condition.

http://www.workingpitbull.com/springpole.htm

Dogs have been trained and worked on springpoles for a long time. I am also not sure who these dog men you speak of are, but a lot of bully owners use springpoles for their dogs with great results.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Angelo, it's called a spring pole. It isn't any more dangerous than any other sport or activity. One major factor is that you don't just have a rope tied to a tree, you must use a spring to provide some give. Like anything else you need to train and condition a dog for it - start low and increase height as the dog gains condition.
> 
> http://www.workingpitbull.com/springpole.htm
> 
> Dogs have been trained and worked on springpoles for a long time. I am also not sure who these dog men you speak of are, but a lot of bully owners use springpoles for their dogs with great results.


 
yeaahh lets leave dog men names out of this, and yes I know what a spring pole is and it dos the same damage trust me ive been in dogs a long time, I know a lot of poeple use it and I know the cur stratton books show it, but when you strecth a neck out and I dont care the condition of the dog, and the dog starts twisting and shaking it can cause damage, not to say you have seen it but I have trust me, go ahead and use your spring pole but note what I say, the way I told is much safer, and jennifer what the hell is that thing in your avatar it starting to scare me


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

ok I just looked at the vid and no problem with that, the damage can when they leave the ground and there body weight put pressure on there necks, and then the twisting and shaking, a stretched out neck body weight just the right motion bingo, but i know I know Im a ass just for mentioning it, dont hate me just watch your dogs, nothing but love for the dogs hear ok


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> For what it's worth, I'm vaguely considering putting in an application for one of Michael Vick's "fighting" dogs that are now being fostered out in San Fransisco by Bad Rap. I'd love nothing more than to make a certified therapy dog with a CGC and TT on one of those dogs. The one I'm interested in is Ernie, a patchy eyed white and brindle (my fav!) who's about 1/4 into the video:
> 
> http://www.badrap.org/rescue/vick/now.html


Very cool Maren! That would be great. Pits don't deserve _special_ treatment, but they do deserve fair treatment. Something man hasn't done for them in a long long time. Let us know what you do.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I've never seen a dog seriously injured with the use of one, and I'm sure if one of my dogs is ever injured by a spring pole I will reconsider its use depending on what the injury was and how it was caused. I've heard of a broken tail from a dog falling straight down and known of overall stiffness or bruising from people allowing their dogs to take a running jump that missed or placing the springpole too close to other objects and the dog slams into them. I don't allow my dogs to run and jump for the burlap, if they are suspended it is because I raise them after they have latched on.

Considering how many people do it all the time, you'd think there would be more stories than just yours. I even googled for 15 minutes trying to find anything about dogs being hurt on springpoles or danger of springpoles etc. Found nothing other than basic advisaries to use them properly and work your dog up to actual hangtime.

I'm not saying your dog didn't get hurt or that it isn't possible but injuries happen from various means. On another board it was posted that a dog broke a canine on a ball and string. Yes that is serious and we should be mindful of the equipment we use but it would make about as much sense to say that nobody should ever use a ball and string as to say nobody should ever use a springpole.

If I see some evidence that there is damage being done when springpoles are used properly, I may reconsider but for now my dogs, even Duke, loves the springpole.

You seriously don't know what my avatar is? 

I will tell you then.

It's a dragon. :lol:


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Its an old one but here is a video the old Charlotte club with some bullies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5cS0CxjBs


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

and just watch out when your dogs get tired on that spring pole, when there just hanging there to long, this is when the dog would be more susceptible,

you can also make a flirt pole so you can do it simular to what I do but it allows you to play tug war, were my way it would destroy the buggy whip


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

yes pat Ihave seen it awsome 

yes jennifer I know what it is in your avatar, I think???

yes you will not find any info, I can think of many reasons and if you want then, but Im getting tierd of writing I have lerning disabilities and my brain is shutting down

look at flirt pole, flirt pole is your friend if use proporly

and it wasnt just my dog there was others that I heard of but cant say i saw


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Angelo - I don't let my dogs just hang. I do not compete in hangtime sports. I use a spring pole for exercise and as a heavy duty tug of war. I said IF my dogs are suspended it is because I raise them. I rarely if ever raise a dog off the hind legs, usually the burlap is kept at around 3.5-4' depending on the height of the dog, its 5' for Duke with his long legs. I don't allow my dogs to take running jumps and work on the springpole is always supervised. People can be stupid with any training tool or toy which is often what causes problems.

And I know what flirtpoles are. I used them before I even knew what they were called. I have several lunge whips from my work with horses and use a variety of prey items on them, usually chamois cloth, burlap, leather or fake fur. I don't use them for tug, just prey work/play.

My avatar is of a wolf in a pool that is biting at the water.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

mostly its not stupid people, I think its more of misinformed, the stupid ones are the ones that dont learn or dont want to listen, but I know you know that, I just had to say it, yes spring pole looks very cool and is very intertaining when you have a dog that dos wild things, but Im just hear to say If they stop performing, theres a reason, and dogs dont allways give you signs right away, spring pole is unatural on the neck when hanging and doing tricks, but I shouldnt tell people to stop, its there dog, so there


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## Erin Sullivan (Jul 24, 2007)

Just got back from the Commonwealth Working Dog Club's trial a couple of hours ago. Two APBTs got their Sch IIIs today. Aja Harris' Esco and Puppy (HDK's Infinite Justice). Nice dogs. She's retiring both of them now. Esco finished his protection even though he broke a lower canine, I think on the escape, with a score of 98. It was very nice work. 

The APBT, as a breed, definitely has issues. But it's really nice to watch a well-trained, intelligent, confident, driven pit bull get down to business.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

very cool erin thank for sharing, makes me happy when people start liking pitts


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Erin Sullivan said:


> Just got back from the Commonwealth Working Dog Club's trial a couple of hours ago. Two APBTs got their Sch IIIs today. Aja Harris' Esco and Puppy (HDK's Infinite Justice). Nice dogs. She's retiring both of them now. Esco finished his protection even though he broke a lower canine, I think on the escape, with a score of 98. It was very nice work.
> 
> The APBT, as a breed, definitely has issues. But it's really nice to watch a well-trained, intelligent, confident, driven pit bull get down to business.


That's great new Erin, thanks for sharing.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Angelo, if you would read the posts properly and fully before responding it would make for far less confusion.

I did not say stupid people. I said people can be stupid with equipment. Anybody can do stupid things, the educated and the uneducated, there are various ways to accomplish a stupid act  Getting careless is one way. I do agree that people who don't know any better are the biggest cause for concern.

Springpole work is more natural than a lot of other things. In the wild, to catch large prey dogs and wild canids jump and grab the nose, throat/neck/back of neck, tail/hindquarters and legs of their prey, sometimes becoming suspended. Technically speaking no dog training is "natural" as we are asking the dogs to do to things that are not natural. Running an agility course is not natural, sniffing for drugs is not natural, biting a sleeve is not natural. 

My point is that done properly springpole work is no more dangerous than most other activities or sports. I don't do it because it "looks cool" I do it because it is a great way to get some major tug of war time on my dogs when I don't feel like being drug around the yard lol.

Great to hear of the SchH III pits, good news Erin


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Agreed. A little research quickly reveals that virtually no 'training' is completely safe. Should we take a 'don't ever do it' stance on the neck/mouth injuries that result in bitework? Hardly. So, it boils down to using training tools properly and not being a dumbass about it. The rest is left to chance and we shouldn't become paranoid and obsess over it. 

Moreover, the springpole is a facet of these dogs as the breed traits of gripping and holding with unparalleled tenacity. It's like saying a sight hound shouldn't run or that a stock dog shouldn't move cattle, all because of the potential for injury. Nonsense. If droves of dogs begin turning up lame from nothing more than acting on instincts, then I think that's an obvious sign the breed(s) are weak and it's time to start culling HARD!! But that's just me. 





Andy.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

wow you two just dont get it at all, jennifer please stop taking offence theres no need to, yes in the wild animals take risk, but on there spare time they dont hang from trees for minnutes just to get some worthless risky exersise, and when there hanging on there dinner its a risk they have to take, 

working trials for the most part are more natural as you might think,

When a boxer is getting ready for a match the closer he gets to the date the less risk he takes so he dos not injure himself before the match,same aplys for everything, what your doing as you dicribe is not what im talking about , your fine so stop taking offence jennifer, I have never dicribed what im trying to say so I might say somethig rong and it looks pritty scattered,

Now in the wild they have to eat so taking risk they must, other than that they dont unless they have to, like learning to hunt attack or cover ground, this is about risk not whats natural or not

you have to school your dog up to hit sleave, a nessesary risk, once hes schooled up and trained I dont thinkyou would be wanting your dog taking risks days before a trial, and why would you want him thrashing around on a spring pole making his neck sore days before or possibly in a trial and then have him hitting a sleave, and yes bite work looks pritty natural to me,

I am telling you this now, in the old legal days, NO PRO DOG MAN WOULD EVER RISK HIS MATCH DOGS BY HAVING THEM WORK ANY KIND OF POLE, ONLY CUR BREEDERS ADOPTED IT, END OF A SCATTERED DISCUSSION, unless I made a mistake or for got to ad something


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

yes I forgot something andy your confused on risk and conditioning and answer me on this, is the bull breeds the only ones that need to exercise there neck and jaw so much more, you can not make a dog bite harder by exercise , they ether have it or not


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

It has nothing to do with biting power or exerise 'needs'. The motivation comes from fulfillment of genetic instincts that are the result of historial purpose. And no, owners of curs are not the only people to have use springpole condiitoning/contests. They were an integral part of baiting, well before the breeds ever touched American soil.

Tell me though, what other breed(s) have been judged under such scrutiny for their grip? 




Andy.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

fullfillment of genetic insticts, you make me laugh, you must stop this trying to think your a history proffessor, all working dogs in the same work genrally act the same. 

cur breeders adopted the idea but it could have been played around with before the PITT history,

your problem now is that your pushing the history back to a clouded time, giving you the opportunity to renforce your beleives, and that is rong to do

this is the story I know, before the bulldog and white terrier cross, (we will discuss the bull dog though) they didnt have refigeration so bull dogs were used as catch dogs so the butcher could keep the animal alive till it was needed, the under shot jaw worked perfectly for "grip/ hold" and not damage the animal, they used gray hound like dogs to find and wear the animal down, and then the bull dogs were sent in, to catch, if you think they used a spring pole at this time I would say that would make no sence, and if you think they had a natural tendency to want to hang I would say no, let me know if you want me to advance the cloudy history to when they did the cross and why,

and please help me, at least give some examples and not just the google crap


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Angelo -

I'm not/haven't been taking offense. Trust me, when I take offense to something I'm not nice about it :smile: You won't see smileys in my post or "lols" or diplomacy. You seem to be the one taking the offensive here.

I'm not talking about a dog hanging from a tree for minutes, I'm talking about tug on the springpole as exercise and fun for the dog. Regarding not having a natural tendency to want to hang... then why do they love it and show a desire to grab and hang all on their own? 

I don't know how a couple of things got into this discussion regarding springpoles.. soreness before a competition for example. That goes for ANY activity, hun. Thats just common sense.

Also, I don't know where fighting came into all of this, nobody here has been talking of dog fighting but you. I am curious as to how you are such an expert on bully breeds, pitbulls, and dog fighting.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

because I hold such a love for bull dogs and I have studied them for a long time, the bull dogs have problibly the longest history of all, and a colerfull one at that, and no one is talking about dog fighting hear your confused, but you must foot step on the suject if your talking about history right, and you two are the ones that keep talking about the damm pole, and if your dogs neck or anything else is sore before a compition then you need to look over what your doing rong


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

My dogs are not sore. Can you read? Yes? Well try doing that before responding 

*"I am telling you this now, in the old legal days, NO PRO DOG MAN WOULD EVER RISK HIS MATCH DOGS BY HAVING THEM WORK ANY KIND OF POLE, ONLY CUR BREEDERS ADOPTED IT, END OF A SCATTERED DISCUSSION, unless I made a mistake or for got to ad something"*

If you are not referring to dog fighting, then what are you referring to? Bullbaiting? Bearbaiting?

My point was that you are the one that brought up fighting of any kind. 

When talking about breed histories yes I acknowledge the history of the breed for what it is, but fighting is not part of this discussion.

Many people love bulldogs and bully breeds, hence this thread. I sure do.

Where did you do all of your study and research? First hand? Owned lots of pits/bulldogs? Participate in fighting or bloodsport? Or did you know and talk to a lot of old time "pro dog men" that did?


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

This has gone from silly to ridiculous. I'm done.




Andy.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Came back too late to delete my post. Can a mod delete it? I agree with Andy and am out due to the progression from silly to ridiculous.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

im sorry, you two make me laugh so hard I was crying, 

jennifer about 25 years ago I had the chance to meat some of the old dog men before they died and pick there brains on fact and fiction.

I have been into small hunting teriers for about 15 years or better, first jack russells (untill the JRTCA ruined them), then onto FELL teriers.

I dont know sch termanoligy so all my info and knowledge is based on my knowledge of small working teriers and personal and proporty protection with shepherds, sorry to leave you two in the dark 

now I have been spanking you two up and down on dog knowlege in general the last few pages and its been fun but Im feeling better now from being sick so I must go back to work, I will check on your google spewwage next week

and jeff Im very sorry for what I said to you a few pages ago I thaough you were a dick untill I saw what you have to go threw in here


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

This thread has gone down hill far too fast. If it can't be brought back on topic and discussed reasonably, it will be closed.

DFrost


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

I will take resposibility for this, I apoligize to every one,

now back on topic, yes bulldogs can make for some very cool bite work dogs


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## Christian Watts (Feb 17, 2008)

Back to best Bully related topics, for the sake of debate and discussion I've decided that the Rotty is the best worker (Although a Mollaser) and then I like the over all size, look, athleticism, and intensity of the Presa. Which is an as yet undeveloped resource but the foundation of the animal has great potential. 
:smile: Those comments should get the discussion back on track


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