# video of one part of our Patrol dog selection test



## mike suttle

Here is a video of one part of our patrol dog selection test. This dog was brought to me to test for possible purchase as a dual purpose police dog. This is just a way for me to evaluate the dogs heart to stay with me in a fight. He has no idea how to fight here yet, but he did demonstrate the desire to stay with me. He only needs to learn the skill set required to fight a man, but he has the heart to do it.
I am posting this video as a reference to some people who have dogs for sale so they can know what I am looking for. The dog in this video did an acceptable job, he is not ready to really fight a man yet, but he has the potential to be trained for that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LgIM3tdojI


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## Nicole Stark

What percentage of the dogs that you test in this manner, fail?


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## brad robert

Definately an interesting test and the dog definately bites well and has a clean out he did get stressed in your conflict with him and he recovered and kept on biting.He definately didnt like being picked up by the flank and dropped his grip each time and obviously all this can be conditioned out but i wonder if asking a dog to sustain this type of stress without having being submitted to it in his prior training is setting the dog up to fail?? I realise it gives you a starting point to see where he is and what he needs in more training and a test of important nerve to do the work


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## jamie lind

I have a few ?'s if you have time. Is it the first time on you as a decoy? First time in that room? How old is the dog?


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## mike suttle

First time the dog and I have ever met, first time he had ever been in that building, he is 2 1/2 years old. He was driven to me and had been in his crate on the road for three days. He pulled into the parking lot and I tested him. He did reasonably well for a sport dog that had never seen this type of work before in his life. I did not buy this dog, but he does have potential to be a patrol dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Big deal! Any of Jeff's mutts can do that even while he is kicking them in the nuts.:razz:


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## jamie lind

mike suttle said:


> First time the dog and I have ever met, first time he had ever been in that building, he is 2 1/2 years old. He was driven to me and had been in his crate on the road for three days. He pulled into the parking lot and I tested him. He did reasonably well for a sport dog that had never seen this type of work before in his life. I did not buy this dog, but he does have potential to be a patrol dog.


Thanks. One last question. What was the reason you didn't buy him. What did you want to see more or less of?


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## Matt Vandart

did you actually flank him at 1:20?
dogs got some balls that's for sure.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm also curious as to why you didn't buy the dog. Also, my concern is if the dog shows stress in the initial, yet gets through the stress. Does that set him up for cumulative stress as he experiencing more of the same work? 

T


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## Brian Anderson

information deprivation (as you said) ..but tough none the less..


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## mike suttle

Nicole Stark said:


> What percentage of the dogs that you test in this manner, fail?


Many of them fail at least one area of our testing. This one failed the hunt drive testing.


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## Drew Peirce

I feel bad for the guy driving halfway cross the country to put his dog thru that then get sent on his way 
with little more than a handshake and a "sorry bout that" to show for it.....


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## Nicole Stark

Drew Peirce said:


> I feel bad for the guy driving halfway cross the country to put his dog thru that then get sent on his way
> with little more than a handshake and a "sorry bout that" to show for it.....


I guess I wouldn't. I don't really know the circumstances that these dogs are offered up for testing but I imagine that at least a few probably really aren't all that interested in selling their dogs. I'm sure there's some that think their dogs are solid or at a certain level and ready for the kind of testing people like Mike do and I'm guessing when they do fail the trip out is worth the education they get from the experience. Course you are always going to have the people who will find a way to offer excuses of any kind imaginable for their dog failing.

As we've seen here, and more than once, lots of people talk a good game but when called on it aren't willing to back it up. Bringing out a dog for a test like that shows at least some willingness to accept the possibility that the dog wouldn't pass.


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## will fernandez

I am sure the reason for the post was as much to deter as to encourage. ...But I tell you what if I brought a dog up their and he passed all the tests I would be hesitant to sell him...breed him til his balls turn inside out maybe...or pretty much set your price higher than what he offers..


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## jamie lind

mike suttle said:


> First time the dog and I have ever met, first time he had ever been in that building, he is 2 1/2 years old. He was driven to me and had been in his crate on the road for three days. He pulled into the parking lot and I tested him. He did reasonably well for a sport dog that had never seen this type of work before in his life. I did not buy this dog, but he does have potential to be a patrol dog.


Maybe instead of showing one that did "reasonably well" you could post a video of one that did "really well "so people have a better idea of what your looking for.


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## Lori Gallo

I'd be interested in watching the hunt drive part of the test. Dogs that excel vs dogs that don't ....or a mid-level dog for comparison.


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## Dave Colborn

So you run them off the bite, then you reward it with a bite? And that passes for you?

You showed him how to turn the pressure off by failing when you flank him, it just increased the liklihood of his failing if you believe in operant conditioning.


That would be one I woudn't post on the internet. For all to see. Hope it doesn't come back to bite you from a tree hugger. Pretty sure that would get you in court, no matter who you are supplying dogs for.

Something i have learned on this tour, that I didn't know previously. The UK has all the same problems the US does with violence and prisons, kids, etc.. We don't know it as much in the US becuase the BBC doesn't post videos of all their shortcomings. I heard this from a Brit and it seems to be true, on the surface. You can find some news of their problems, but not like the US.


I get you don't want people to waste your time, but you could have used one of your stud dogs in a video that wouldn't come off the bite.


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## mike suttle

Dave Colborn said:


> So you run them off the bite, then you reward it with a bite? And that passes for you?
> 
> You showed him how to turn the pressure off by failing when you flank him, it just increased the liklihood of his failing if you believe in operant conditioning.
> 
> 
> That would be one I woudn't post on the internet. For all to see. Hope it doesn't come back to bite you from a tree hugger. Pretty sure that would get you in court, no matter who you are supplying dogs for.
> 
> Something i have learned on this tour, that I didn't know previously. The UK has all the same problems the US does with violence and prisons, kids, etc.. We don't know it as much in the US becuase the BBC doesn't post videos of all their shortcomings. I heard this from a Brit and it seems to be true, on the surface. You can find some news of their problems, but not like the US.
> 
> 
> I get you don't want people to waste your time, but you could have used one of your stud dogs in a video that wouldn't come off the bite.


Dave, I didn't "run him off the bite", I physically removed him from the suit and pitched him away from me. And I didn't reward him for coming off, I waited for him to try to come back and fight me and I rewarded him for that by letting him back on me when I saw in his eyes that he was the most intent on coming at me. This dog has no skill set at all as far as fighting the man, but he didn't quit, and he didn't run. He has the potential to make a patrol dog and yes, that was good enough for me in the bitework, but I didn't buy him because he didn't good well enough for us.
There are not many dogs that I can't remove from the suit if they have never been prepaired for that sort of work, but I don't fail a dog for allowing me to peel him off, I only fail the ones that don't want to come back and fight. If the dog has the heart to come back and keep trying to fight me when I take him off time and time again and pitch him away form me, then that is all that I need to work with and I can teach the dog to stay on the suit with training.
Most of the dogs that I buy are dogs that I peeled off the suit when I first tested them, but none of them ran when I pitched them away and charged at them, and almost all of them very quickly learned to stay on and bite harder when I put my hands on them after a couple weeks of work in the suit with me.
For 100% sure in a week or two of me working this dog on the suit I could teach him to take other targets besides the right bicep, and I could also teach him that by staying on me, biting harder and pushing into me the stress will go away, and he would for sure not come off the suit again.

I can't imagine getting into any trouble for posting this video. This is actually pretty easy on the dog, and this test is much easier than the testing that some of our clients do with our dogs here. I didn't do anything at all other that get into this dogs head a little bit, and pinch him a little on the flank.


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## mike suttle

jamie lind said:


> Maybe instead of showing one that did "reasonably well" you could post a video of one that did "really well "so people have a better idea of what your looking for.


Here are a few videos of some dogs that I considered to do really well during testing.
We don't video them all, but here are some of the ones that we did video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnFZSYndHSo&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPncb5_P80Q&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3f7rD1GRk&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFWvFQinAWw&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOM8c12_Bt0&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cftn_C54ULc&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A


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## mike suttle

will fernandez said:


> I am sure the reason for the post was as much to deter as to encourage. ...But I tell you what if I brought a dog up their and he passed all the tests I would be hesitant to sell him...breed him til his balls turn inside out maybe...or pretty much set your price higher than what he offers..


 Yes Will, I did post this video to show people some of what we do during our testing here, you would be surprised at how many people call me telling me they have super high quality police dog prospects for sale. Often times when we test them the wheels fall off very quickly. So I posted this video to show people that our test is passable, but it may be more than the dog they have is willing to endure. Not that this test, or this dog is anything special, but unfortunately it is more than a lot of dogs can handle. 
I try to make sure they understand that our tests are not easy in an attempt to save us both a lot of time if they have a marginal dog they are planning to show me. 
I have driven all over the place here in the USA testing dogs, I have flown all over Eurpoe testing, and have paid a lot of money to have dogs flown to me for testing. I don't want to waste any more time or money looking at dogs that everyone knows is not really suited for police work. The reason I don't ever have more than a handfull of dual purpose prospects on hand is because I simply can't find that many that pass all of our selection testing. But if we have a dog here to show a client as a dual purpose dog it will for sure make a real police dog. From the beginning that has been my business model. I have upset many people along the way by testing their dogs and exposing many holes in the dog and not selecting them for purchase. But I would rather upset a seller by not buying his dog, than upset a buyer by selling him a sub standard dog.


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## Nicole Stark

Mike, I am curious about something. I believe from time to time you've held back several pups, if not more from certain litters for development. Of those how many are able to go on to become DP dogs? From your post above it sounds like dogs of that caliber are not that easy to come by, which is what got me curious about what your experiences have been with the dogs you have produced.

Given the number of your own pups that you've held on to, is this something you can get a feel for it's potential early on with a young dog? By young, I mean under 10-12 months in age. Keep in mind that I am asking that question being fully unaware of what ages DP dogs are generally tested.


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm also curious as to why you didn't buy the dog. Also, my concern is if the dog shows stress in the initial, yet gets through the stress. Does that set him up for cumulative stress as he experiencing more of the same work?
> T


very few dogs will not show any stress at all in something like this, I would say. Would you say that a dog working as a dual purpose police dog, regularly fighting criminals, might also be stressful?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> very few dogs will not show any stress at all in something like this, I would say. Would you say that a dog working as a dual purpose police dog, regularly fighting criminals, might also be stressful?


You miss the point. I want to know how the dog responds afterward or with multiple exposures. This is not about whether the dog should be stressed. Furthermore, if you are looking the ideal dog, what is the ideal response and is that a result of training/conditioning or genetics.

T


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## mike suttle

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You miss the point. I want to know how the dog responds afterward or with multiple exposures. This is not about whether the dog should be stressed. Furthermore, if you are looking the ideal dog, what is the ideal response and is that a result of training/conditioning or genetics.
> 
> T


The dogs that have the heart to keep coming back to fight me time after time as I peel them off and pitch them away usually very quickly learn how to make the stress go away after a few sessions: (by staying on me and fighting, biting, and pushing in harder) This is something that can be taught to the right dog by a decoy who understands the dog and how to get this behavior out of him.


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## jamie lind

mike suttle said:


> Here are a few videos of some dogs that I considered to do really well during testing.
> We don't video them all, but here are some of the ones that we did video.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnFZSYndHSo&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPncb5_P80Q&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3f7rD1GRk&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFWvFQinAWw&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=12
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOM8c12_Bt0&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cftn_C54ULc&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A


thanks. would these also be the first time youve seen the dog?


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## mike suttle

Nicole Stark said:


> Mike, I am curious about something. I believe from time to time you've held back several pups, if not more from certain litters for development. Of those how many are able to go on to become DP dogs? From your post above it sounds like dogs of that caliber are not that easy to come by, which is what got me curious about what your experiences have been with the dogs you have produced.
> 
> Given the number of your own pups that you've held on to, is this something you can get a feel for it's potential early on with a young dog? By young, I mean under 10-12 months in age. Keep in mind that I am asking that question being fully unaware of what ages DP dogs are generally tested.


That is very correct Nicole, the dogs that we are always looking for are very hard to find. The demand for dogs of that quality is always greater than the supply of them. The biggest reason we keep so many young dogs back to raise here is simply because we can't find enough good ones elsewhere. Of course not all of the dogs we raise here meet our standards either. But depending on the litter, sometimes we do have very good success. We kept 5 males back from one of our Arko X Djenna litters and all 5 of them were what I would consider to be SF quality dogs by 18 months old. Two of them did go to an SF contract, one went to a SWAT team in Utah, and two went to US Border Patrol. That was a SUPER litter for sure, and it was better than what is normal from any litter. At the moment we have at least 6 pups here under a year old that I can say will be as good as the dog I posted this video of, and maybe two of the will be much better.


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## mike suttle

jamie lind said:


> thanks. would these also be the first time youve seen the dog?


The videos of Pajko, Hunter, Mikki, and Arco were their first time being tested by us here in the USA.


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## jack van strien

Mike,nice videos and i think maybe some people are really surprised by the amount of pressure put onto the dogs.These are not prospects for sportdogs but for real life within law enforcement or sf.
I have seen many tests done in Holland on KNPV dogs and i know what to look for.All of the dogs in your videos all ready know how to bite,in the old days we used to buy a saturday newspaper and look for dogs for sale.We would go there and test them and sometimes buy one some people would give us dogs for free!.Most of those dogs had never seen a suit before and we would challenge them without.Would they respond well we would let them bite on a jacket or a sleeve.Some of these dogs would not let go and those were the ones we took home.
I guess my question is how do you test green dogs?But then again a lot of people would not know how to recognize a green dog wich would bite,so they will not be put up for sale.


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## Chris Keister

If I owned a dog, or tested a dog, that had never been exposed to this type of pressure, and performed that well, I would be happy. 

I share the same opinion as Mike, it's not the fact that the dog came off, it was the willingness to continue to re-engage that shows the true character in a dog. 

Good test, good work, good dog.


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## Dave Colborn

It's a business. You are making money. I get it. You are doing it the way you know how.

My reaction is probably similar with other people here only I spoke up. Not that you shouldn't do it (although I don't see the point with an untrained dog,I get that its how you know to do it) but that you shouldn't video it or post it. I don't know if anyone else will speak up, but I am. 

You can condition a dog to take pressure. Why not do it? What I know is that that dog has left the bite after feeling pain. 

Not a bad looking dog before your test, but i'd like to see his reaction to a handler touching his flank now while on a bite. I wonder what other baggage you have caused him.

It's not as bad as putting a dog fighting video up, but if you find that one tree hugger who has spare time to cause trouble, it will be for you.



mike suttle said:


> Dave, I didn't "run him off the bite", I physically removed him from the suit and pitched him away from me. And I didn't reward him for coming off, I waited for him to try to come back and fight me and I rewarded him for that by letting him back on me when I saw in his eyes that he was the most intent on coming at me. This dog has no skill set at all as far as fighting the man, but he didn't quit, and he didn't run. He has the potential to make a patrol dog and yes, that was good enough for me in the bitework, but I didn't buy him because he didn't good well enough for us.
> There are not many dogs that I can't remove from the suit if they have never been prepaired for that sort of work, but I don't fail a dog for allowing me to peel him off, I only fail the ones that don't want to come back and fight. If the dog has the heart to come back and keep trying to fight me when I take him off time and time again and pitch him away form me, then that is all that I need to work with and I can teach the dog to stay on the suit with training.
> Most of the dogs that I buy are dogs that I peeled off the suit when I first tested them, but none of them ran when I pitched them away and charged at them, and almost all of them very quickly learned to stay on and bite harder when I put my hands on them after a couple weeks of work in the suit with me.
> For 100% sure in a week or two of me working this dog on the suit I could teach him to take other targets besides the right bicep, and I could also teach him that by staying on me, biting harder and pushing into me the stress will go away, and he would for sure not come off the suit again.
> 
> I can't imagine getting into any trouble for posting this video. This is actually pretty easy on the dog, and this test is much easier than the testing that some of our clients do with our dogs here. I didn't do anything at all other that get into this dogs head a little bit, and pinch him a little on the flank.


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## Drew Peirce

Your barely scratching the surface dave.........

Just a few basic points, anyone who believes those same exact test methods are used on dogs mike has either raised or imported himself and has his own time or money invested in are seriously delusional, proof of that is in the other vids, that type of testing is reserved for yahoos with their own dogs looking for a 6k payday.
A more important point is that any seasoned street cop and police dog trainer worth his salt knows that you never push a dog all the way to the breaking point either in testing or training, if that point is going to be reached, let it happen on the street with someone who doesnt have the luxury of a 30lb bitesuit on and the handler fighting by his side, now dont get me wrong, should you test them hard and condition them hard in training? Absolutely......but it's the mark of a savvy trainer to know where that line is, and your absolutely correct that dog is now set up perfectly to fail on the street from that "test".
I could go quite a bit deeper but out of respect for another party I'll stop there........


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## Dave Colborn

Drew. I don't have a bone to pick with mike. I have an opinion. The main part of my opinion is that I would like him to see is how it could hurt his business. His clients may love it and more power to them. (Hopefully they realize the dogs coming from vendors have been trained for this test.)

But someone totally unrelated without a shred of sense about police dogs can hurt his livlihood, even if it is only minimally or an irritation.






Drew Peirce said:


> Your barely scratching the surface dave.........
> 
> Just a few basic points, anyone who believes those same exact test methods are used on dogs mike has either raised or imported himself and has his own time or money invested in are seriously delusional, proof of that is in the other vids, that type of testing is reserved for yahoos with their own dogs looking for a 6k payday.
> A more important point is that any seasoned street cop and police dog trainer worth his salt knows that you never push a dog all the way to the breaking point either in testing or training, if that point is going to be reached, let it happen on the street with someone who doesnt have the luxury of a 30lb bitesuit on and the handler fighting by his side, now dont get me wrong, should you test them hard and condition them hard in training? Absolutely......but it's the mark of a savvy trainer to know where that line is, and your absolutely correct that dog is now set up perfectly to fail on the street from that "test".
> I could go quite a bit deeper but out of respect for another party I'll stop there........


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## Matt Vandart

Dave Colborn said:


> So you run them off the bite, then you reward it with a bite? And that passes for you?
> 
> You showed him how to turn the pressure off by failing when you flank him, it just increased the liklihood of his failing if you believe in operant conditioning.
> 
> 
> That would be one I woudn't post on the internet. For all to see. Hope it doesn't come back to bite you from a tree hugger. Pretty sure that would get you in court, no matter who you are supplying dogs for.
> 
> *Something i have learned on this tour, that I didn't know previously. The UK has all the same problems the US does with violence and prisons, kids, etc.. We don't know it as much in the US becuase the BBC doesn't post videos of all their shortcomings. I heard this from a Brit and it seems to be true, on the surface. You can find some news of their problems, but not like the US.*
> 
> 
> I get you don't want people to waste your time, but you could have used one of your stud dogs in a video that wouldn't come off the bite.


I can qualify this statement. 
Fact is you are more likely statistically speaking to get violently assaulted in the UK than US and scarily just under 50% happen in the victims home as compared to 12% a few years ago. It happened alot where I used to live, that's why I moved out to the sticks. One guy that lived round the corner got tied to a radiator while the bad guys emptied his house, including taking the copper pipes and boiler for scrap value.

I think Mikes test is serving a purpose and I agree that the dog did well under such pressure, I can see why such a test would be carried out in terms of financial pressures but I'm not sure I would go as far as to flank the dog in an initial test (which is why I asked). If it works for Mike then I'm not going to argue.

Nice to see a dog with so much fight in him what made him fail the hunt part of the test?

I can also see where Dave is coming from, there are assholes out there that could cause problems with this video but tbh I think if the dog did not show he had the minerals I'm sure Mike would have stopped. I don't think that dog will be permanently damaged, after all as everyone says, if he has the genetics to cope then we would expect him to bounce back from such an experience.


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## brad robert

Dave Colborn said:


> It's a business. You are making money. I get it. You are doing it the way you know how.
> 
> My reaction is probably similar with other people here only I spoke up. Not that you shouldn't do it (although I don't see the point with an untrained dog,I get that its how you know to do it) but that you shouldn't video it or post it. I don't know if anyone else will speak up, but I am.
> 
> You can condition a dog to take pressure. Why not do it? What I know is that that dog has left the bite after feeling pain.
> 
> Not a bad looking dog before your test, but i'd like to see his reaction to a handler touching his flank now while on a bite. I wonder what other baggage you have caused him.
> 
> It's not as bad as putting a dog fighting video up, but if you find that one tree hugger who has spare time to cause trouble, it will be for you.


Baggage is a good point and was more what i was trying to say earlier but u did it better 

Dogs remember discomfort well and fixing things usually take longer then training it right in the first place.


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## Michael Murphy

that Arco is the most beutiful dog i have ever seen!


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## Michael Murphy

didnt u say on a previous post that arko and some other dogs produce better biters then arco?
if so those dogs must have been gorgeous :razz:


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## mike suttle

Drew Peirce said:


> Your barely scratching the surface dave.........
> 
> Just a few basic points, anyone who believes those same exact test methods are used on dogs mike has either raised or imported himself and has his own time or money invested in are seriously delusional, proof of that is in the other vids, that type of testing is reserved for yahoos with their own dogs looking for a 6k payday.
> A more important point is that any seasoned street cop and police dog trainer worth his salt knows that you never push a dog all the way to the breaking point either in testing or training, if that point is going to be reached, let it happen on the street with someone who doesnt have the luxury of a 30lb bitesuit on and the handler fighting by his side, now dont get me wrong, should you test them hard and condition them hard in training? Absolutely......but it's the mark of a savvy trainer to know where that line is, and your absolutely correct that dog is now set up perfectly to fail on the street from that "test".
> I could go quite a bit deeper but out of respect for another party I'll stop there........


Drew, most of the dogs that I buy or import myself are tested harder than that when I am in Holland testing them, that, I can assure you. And I just tested a two year old dog that was born and raised at our place last week much harder than this as well.
This is a test guys, not a training session, although at the end I always turn it into a training session and let the dog push me around.
I have done this type of testing with about every dog that I have bought, and while all of them were able to be removed from the suit by the decoy the first time they were exposed to this, almost none of them were able to be removed by the decoy after a few weeks of building them up and exposing them to this type of work.
Furthermore Drew, his "breaking point" was far from being reached in this test, and believe me now his "breaking point" is even higher. I could see it progress as I worked him in this short session alone. 
If you are fighting with someone and they grab you and throw you across the ring, did you reach your breaking point? If you run out of the ring I guess maybe you did, but if you charge back and try to grab him aren't you still willing to fight at that point? 
I will tell you this, the initial bite from this dog was not hard, and he was growly in the beginning, that is why I calmed him down and let him settle in, then I put him on the table and again I felt his grip get weaker so I calmed him down again, and let him settle. Then I flanked him and he came off (which almost all dogs do the first time they see this) and I pitched him away from me. He came back pretty hard and tried to reengage, after I fended him off a few times with the padded shin of my bitesuit I let him back on me and calmed him down again. The second time I put him on the table his grip was already much better and when I flanked him the second time it took much more effort to remove him, and his attemt to come back at me was much more intense, when he looked into my eyes and I could see that he was the most intent on coming back I let him have me again, and again I calmed him down and let him settle in. I know for sure that the next time I tried to flank him it would have taken much more effort to remove him, but he was getting very tired and I had already seen enough. I have tested a lot of dogs this way, and the ones that I buy have not only had no baggage from this type of testing, but they were able to learn how to work through this type of work and become stronger. 
I have some clients here that test some of our dogs much harder than this, and they use those dogs in places that none of us ever want to be, but they need to know that the dog they are buying is a dog that will really fight with them when it has to. 
If we don't test the dog, really test his heart, then how will we know until it's too late?

We can just agree to disagree here, but I have tested dogs this way for a long time, and we have purchased what we and our clients consider to be very good dogs.


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## Dave Colborn

mike suttle said:


> Furthermore Drew, his "breaking point" was far from being reached in this test, and believe me now his "breaking point" is even higher. I could see it progress as I worked him in this short session alone.


 
I saw him take longer getting back on the bite the second time how do you explain that?. He was intent on regripping the first time you caused him pain and made him leave the bite, and not so intent the second time when you made him yelp and leave the bite although it took him longer to be forced off the bite. Do you suppose he thought he had better hang on for dear life so he wouldn't go where he didn't want to be? Had you progressed a third time, he would have probably been out the door. Sure you might make them take the pain for a while training like that, but in the end you'll have a dog that doesn't want to get close enough to the man to bite. 

Just out of curiosity, did you test the hunt first? Was this a titled dog? were the dogs in the other videos titled, or just trained for your test by the dutch?

Green dogs aren't going to pass your test, so why not train that dog to the level the dutch dogs are, and then test him. We know they are pre trained. Why not test the hunting and fail him for that before you leave him worse than he started?


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## Erik Berg

How is the rest of the selectiontest performed and what is the minimum level you want to see for a passing grade in those situations? Also, if a dog does pretty well like the one discussed in this part of the test, does it usually make a good impression in the rest of the testingsituations, you mentioned this dog didn´t passed because of low huntdrive, is this the most common fault for the dogs that do well in biting you in the suit?


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## Ariel Peldunas

Dave Colborn said:


> I saw him take longer getting back on the bite the second time how do you explain that?. He was intent on regripping the first time you caused him pain and made him leave the bite, and not so intent the second time when you made him yelp and leave the bite although it took him longer to be forced off the bite. Do you suppose he thought he had better hang on for dear life so he wouldn't go where he didn't want to be? Had you progressed a third time, he would have probably been out the door. Sure you might make them take the pain for a while training like that, but in the end you'll have a dog that doesn't want to get close enough to the man to bite.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, did you test the hunt first? Was this a titled dog? were the dogs in the other videos titled, or just trained for your test by the dutch?
> 
> Green dogs aren't going to pass your test, so why not train that dog to the level the dutch dogs are, and then test him. We know they are pre trained. Why not test the hunting and fail him for that before you leave him worse than he started?


Mike's outside working and I'm sick in bed so I'll answer what I can.

We tested the dog's hunt drive first. We informed the owner that we weren't interested because he didn't have what we were looking for in the hunt and the owner asked if Mike could test the dog in the bitework anyway. 

The dog wasn't titled but had a lot of work prior to coming here to be tested. The owner felt he had exposed the dog to a lot of pressure in various environments. 

Mikki and Pajko were not titled. Arco was. Not sure about Hunter. Mikki and Arco were from the KNPV program. Pajko had been in training for IPO prior to purchase and had not been on a suit much (if at all) before he was purchased.

The dog in the video took longer to bite the second time because Mike fended him off longer. Many of the dogs he tests only know one primary target area so they typically won't bite the legs even if a leg is more accessible than the bicep. It's easy to keep them from reengaging by taking away the bicep, but the idea isn't to see if the dog will figure out he can bite the leg, but to see if the dog is willing to stay in the fight. As Mike mentioned, once he saw the dog's intention was not to run, but to stay and fight, he allowed him to bite again. 

This isn't how we train everyday. This is a test. If the dog had passed the hunt test, he wouldn't have seen a test like this again for a long time ...probably only when the client came to test him. I know to someone who has never seen this before it can be upsetting, but people tend to hate what they don't understand. I've watched plenty of training videos where a dog is being whaled on with a stick or stung with a whip ...but that's more acceptable because we see it all the time.

We aren't going to take a young green dog and expect him to perform to this standard ...the testing is age and experience appropriate. This was a mature dog that had lots of prior training. However, we aren't testing training, we're testing heart and desire to engage a human even when it may not be all in fun.

To quote Drew:

"you never push a dog all the way to the breaking point either in testing or training, if that point is going to be reached, let it happen on the street with someone who doesnt have the luxury of a 30lb bitesuit on and the handler fighting by his side"

I have to disagree with this. This isn't a dog that's already on the street that we're trying to make better. This is a dog that is being tested to see if he will cut it as a police dog. I would rather know before I deployed my dog on a dangerous subject whether or not my dog really had the heart to be there. Finding out my dog won't stay in the fight in a context he at least somewhat understands on a decoy that's not really fighting for his life would be better than expecting my dog to perform when my life is at risk and realizing he won't. And the fact is, this dog wasn't pushed to the breaking point. He still came forward and bit and was allowed to win in the end.

We wash our own dogs out if we see they lack heart, but all of the dogs we have been raising here are young ...the oldest is 13 months. They still see pressure in training, but not to the extent they would see if they were older, more experienced and more mature. When they are ready to be sold, they will be tested appropriately. Some won't cut it and they will be sold as detectors or washed out.


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## Dave Colborn

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I know to someone who has never seen this before it can be upsetting, but people tend to hate what they don't understand. I've watched plenty of training videos where a dog is being whaled on with a stick or stung with a whip ...but that's more acceptable because we see it all the time.


Like I said before. I understand it's a business and this is how he knows how to do it. I also think the owner who already had the dog fail hunting made a bad choice and left the dog worse for the wear after this training session. Training, because the one important participant doesn't know he was being tested, he was just there.. What I think or what you think or what Mike thinks doesnt matter. It's that elusive tree hugging peta bastard that will cause trouble. 

I tend to mock what I don't understand more than hating it. The good news is that the dogs vendors sell Mike can be trained for this, so that it looks like the dog "Has it", when it gets there.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Erik Berg said:


> How is the rest of the selectiontest performed and what is the minimum level you want to see for a passing grade in those situations? Also, if a dog does pretty well like the one discussed in this part of the test, does it usually make a good impression in the rest of the testingsituations, you mentioned this dog didn´t passed because of low huntdrive, is this the most common fault for the dogs that do well in biting you in the suit?


We test hunting and environmental nerves first. If the dog fails there or it's clear the dog doesn't have the nerve with no pressure from a decoy, there's no need to test the biting. In this situation, the dog's environmental nerves were just fine. He was happy to walk into a new building with slippery floors, in and out of dark rooms, up and down bleachers and to jump on tables and other narrow or unstable surfaces. In that area, we just want to see a dog that looks as confident in a new environment as he does outside in a place he is familiar with. 

For the hunt/retrieve test, we prefer the dog to have the desire to possess, carry and hunt for a variety of objects. Some clients only want dogs who will retrieve metal. Others are fine with ball or PVC dogs. The point is, the dog has to want the object. Any dog can be trained to retrieve ...we want the dogs that have an overwhelming desire for the toy. When we test the hunt, we don't want to see the dog distracted ...stopping to look around, mark, drink, etc. We want a dog with the drive to hunt until the toy is found without extra commands or prompting from the handler.

We test hunting both inside and outside. How quickly the dog finds the toy isn't as important as his perseverance. Also, we take into account the dog's age and how much experience the dog has hunting in new environments. If the dog lacks experience but has the drive, we can work with that.


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## jamie lind

Do you have any video of a test you would perform on a true green dog? Or do you only buy dogs that are more "selection test" ready? Tell me if I didn't explain my question clear enough. Thanks


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## Ariel Peldunas

Dave Colborn said:


> Like I said before. I understand it's a business and this is how he knows how to do it. I also think the owner who already had the dog fail hunting made a bad choice and left the dog worse for the wear after this training session. Training, because the one important participant doesn't know he was being tested, he was just there.. What I think or what you think or what Mike thinks doesnt matter. It's that elusive tree hugging peta bastard that will cause trouble.
> 
> I tend to mock what I don't understand more than hating it. The good news is that the dogs vendors sell Mike can be trained for this, so that it looks like the dog "Has it", when it gets there.


Actually, most of the dogs aren't prepared for this test. Most come from the KNPV program and are either training for a title or have been titled. Although it would be flattering to think everyone out there is preparing their dogs to be tested by Mike, that's not the case. And the few people who do try to prepare dogs for a test like this just don't really understand exactly what's going on.

It's not about how much you can hurt or scare the dog. It's about showing the dog actual pressure from the man rather than pom-poms and clatter sticks. Most dogs have never really seen that and even when the trainers try to prepare the dogs, it's not the same. I can't explain why, but you can see it.

You seem to believe that no dogs "have it." I believe that some do. It's no different than with humans. Some back down or run from a fight and some seek them out. Some people wince and cry when they feel pain, others are angered and motivated by it. You can't teach a dog to have heart any more than you can teach a person. That's what Mike is testing for ...what do the dogs do when the deck is no longer stacked in their favor? We can spend the dog's whole life building them up and letting them win, but we'll never know if the dog really has the heart until it's tested. Better for it to be tested like this than on the street.


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## Britney Pelletier

Drew Peirce said:


> Your barely scratching the surface dave.........
> 
> Just a few basic points, anyone who believes those same exact test methods are used on dogs mike has either raised or imported himself and has his own time or money invested in are seriously delusional, proof of that is in the other vids, that type of testing is reserved for yahoos with their own dogs looking for a 6k payday.
> A more important point is that any seasoned street cop and police dog trainer worth his salt knows that you never push a dog all the way to the breaking point either in testing or training, if that point is going to be reached, let it happen on the street with someone who doesnt have the luxury of a 30lb bitesuit on and the handler fighting by his side, now dont get me wrong, should you test them hard and condition them hard in training? Absolutely......but it's the mark of a savvy trainer to know where that line is, and your absolutely correct that dog is now set up perfectly to fail on the street from that "test".
> I could go quite a bit deeper but out of respect for another party I'll stop there........


Amen.


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## Britney Pelletier

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Pajko had been in training for IPO prior to purchase and had not been on a suit much (if at all) before he was purchased.


How do you explain an IPO dog going immediately into the left shoulder of a suit if it had never been trained to target there and had not "seen a suit much, if at all"?




Ariel Peldunas said:


> We aren't going to take a young green dog and expect him to perform to this standard ...the testing is age and experience appropriate. This was a mature dog that had lots of prior training. However, we aren't testing training, we're testing heart and desire to engage a human even when it may not be all in fun.


I am curious as to what drive or combination of drives you feel these dogs are working in when they have so much "desire to fight a man".. I didn't realize that was something genetically hardwired into a canine. Fight other animals, sure.. fight a man?

Are they working in "heart drive", maybe?


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## Britney Pelletier

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Actually, most of the dogs aren't prepared for this test. Most come from the KNPV program and are either training for a title or have been titled. Although it would be flattering to think everyone out there is preparing their dogs to be tested by Mike, that's not the case.


Pretty sure Dave's point is that you are calling this your "basic selection test" for patrol dogs, which would lead many people to assume this is how you test green dogs that may be suitable candidates for patrol dogs. When, in reality, you purchase "leash finished" and/or titled KNPV dogs that have more than likely already seen a lot of similar pressure to this before arriving here. It's a little disingenuous to let people think you take dogs with zero prior training or preparation for this "test" and they just magically fly into the shoulder and stick that grip and stay there. 

Do you conduct a similar test with real green dogs on a sleeve or must it always been on a suit in order to determine how much heart the dog has?


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## Brett Bowen

I get both sides of the argument here. But a couple of my favorite phrases comes to mind. "It is better to loose a little blood in training, than all of it in real life." and "It doesn't matter, until it matters."

I think you need to find out where the dog is at as best we can before a real situation. To draw a parralell, police and military folks go to the range, train in simulated situations, over and over and over again. One of the reasons they do that is to expose if they a problem with equipment or communication etc. If I have a magazine for my pistol or rifle that malfunctions 5 rounds into firing, training is the time to find that out, not when you get in a gun fight and you have a "dead man's gun" 5 rounds in. Same thing with the dog, best to find out before you send your dog and you've got a "dead man's dog" (I need to trademark and copywright that).


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## Brian Anderson

My question (which would probably be better directed at the prospective seller but maybe you can answer). Why is the dog 2.5 yrs old and without any tools to fight the man..did they leave the dog in the kennel and one day say "Hey this dog is a dual and we can sell him to Suttle all we have to do is drive cross country and let him test the dog first" ... just curiosity more than anything on my part ..


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## Brian Anderson

Britney Pelletier said:


> Pretty sure Dave's point is that you are calling this your "basic selection test" for patrol dogs, which would lead many people to assume this is how you test green dogs that may be suitable candidates for patrol dogs. When, in reality, you purchase "leash finished" and/or titled KNPV dogs that have more than likely already seen a lot of similar pressure to this before arriving here. It's a little disingenuous to let people think you take dogs with zero prior training or preparation for this "test" and they just magically fly into the shoulder and stick that grip and stay there.
> 
> Do you conduct a similar test with real green dogs on a sleeve or must it always been on a suit in order to determine how much heart the dog has?


I'd put my money on 85% of the dogs going the other way in a scenario of testing dogs this way without prior experience at all (on the part of the dog). The definition of green dog is so varied too... everyone seems to have their own version of what a "green dog" is.


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## mike suttle

Dave Colborn said:


> I saw him take longer getting back on the bite the second time how do you explain that?. He was intent on regripping the first time you caused him pain and made him leave the bite, and not so intent the second time when you made him yelp and leave the bite although it took him longer to be forced off the bite. Do you suppose he thought he had better hang on for dear life so he wouldn't go where he didn't want to be? Had you progressed a third time, he would have probably been out the door. Sure you might make them take the pain for a while training like that, but in the end you'll have a dog that doesn't want to get close enough to the man to bite.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, did you test the hunt first? Was this a titled dog? were the dogs in the other videos titled, or just trained for your test by the dutch?
> 
> Green dogs aren't going to pass your test, so why not train that dog to the level the dutch dogs are, and then test him. We know they are pre trained. Why not test the hunting and fail him for that before you leave him worse than he started?


Dave, it took him longer to get back on the suit the second time because I pushed him harder and fended him off longer. His committment to come back the first time was good, but I didn't keep him off as long or push him as hard. His committment to come back the second time was for sure better than the first and I made him work harder, I pushed him more, and held him off longer. That is why it took him more time to bite the second time. I thought that was pretty obvious to see in the video, it was certainly very obvious for me to see when I was standing in front of him. For sure that dog was not going to go out the door the third time, in fact he may not have even came off at all if I had done that again, but the dog was getting tired and there was no need to to it a third time.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Britney Pelletier said:


> Pretty sure Dave's point is that you are calling this your "basic selection test" for patrol dogs, which would lead many people to assume this is how you test green dogs that may be suitable candidates for patrol dogs. When, in reality, you purchase "leash finished" and/or titled KNPV dogs that have more than likely already seen a lot of similar pressure to this before arriving here. It's a little disingenuous to let people think you take dogs with zero prior training or preparation for this "test" and they just magically fly into the shoulder and stick that grip and stay there.
> 
> Do you conduct a similar test with real green dogs on a sleeve or must it always been on a suit in order to determine how much heart the dog has?


If you read the description of the video or any of the above posts, you will read that the dog was a mature dog that had received training prior to testing. I can't help if people make incorrect assumptions based on their ignorance because the didn't read the explanation of the video and testing procedure.

We specifically stated that this dog only learned to target the left bicep which is why he didn't try to bite the legs. Never did we try to mislead anyone into believing that the dog had never seen any training before and magically knew to fly into the left bicep. In our definition, a green dog is not finished. It doesn't mean the dog hasn't received training, just that the dog is not considered "finished." And before you say it, I realize training is never finished, but there is an obvious distinction between green and trained enough to be put on the street tomorrow. I'm using the term "finished" for simplicity.

If the dog has only been on a sleeve, then the dog will be tested on a sleeve. If the dog is familiar with biting a suit, the the dog will be tested on a suit.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Britney Pelletier said:


> How do you explain an IPO dog going immediately into the left shoulder of a suit if it had never been trained to target there and had not "seen a suit much, if at all"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious as to what drive or combination of drives you feel these dogs are working in when they have so much "desire to fight a man".. I didn't realize that was something genetically hardwired into a canine. Fight other animals, sure.. fight a man?
> 
> Are they working in "heart drive", maybe?


As I said, Pajko hadn't been on a suit before purchase. Once he was here, he was worked on a suit a number of times before the video that Mike posted was taken. He wasn't worked in that manner, but was introduced to biting a suit and shown different target areas. He had good technique when biting a sleeve and that technique transferred to the suit easily ...it was just a matter of showing him where to bite. After a few sessions, it was easy for Mike to trigger him and get him to bite the desired target area. In the video, Mike gave him a clear target to the bicep and once he was there, he stayed there.

If you don't believe that some dogs have the desire to fight and win and sometimes even gain pleasure from it, then I don't really know how to answer your second question. We could pick it apart and try to explain what's going on using terms like prey or defense or drive channeling. I just think it's a matter of whether the dog stays and fights or runs when given the chance. In training, the dog learns the only way to make pressure go away is to fight harder. Once the dog fights harder, he is rewarded by the reaction from the decoy. If you want to simplify it, you work the dog in defense and then reward him in prey ...apply pressure, make him defend himself and then reward him by letting him feel as though he has conquered the prey. But what makes the dog willing to enter the room in the first place? Maybe it's the anticipation of killing the prey. Or maybe some dogs just enjoy the fight.


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## Dave Colborn

mike suttle said:


> Dave, it took him longer to get back on the suit the second time because I pushed him harder and fended him off longer. His committment to come back the first time was good, but I didn't keep him off as long or push him as hard. His committment to come back the second time was for sure better than the first and I made him work harder, I pushed him more, and held him off longer. That is why it took him more time to bite the second time. I thought that was pretty obvious to see in the video, it was certainly very obvious for me to see when I was standing in front of him. For sure that dog was not going to go out the door the third time, in fact he may not have even came off at all if I had done that again, but the dog was getting tired and there was no need to to it a third time.


 
I don't agree with your assessment of the video. The neat thing is I can have an opinion and it doesn't really affect you. I would like to talk to you guys in person about it and hopefully will sometime soon have the chance to do so.


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## Brian McQuain

I liked the videos. Thanks for sharing Mike! I can appreciate whats being done in them. 

You can train all kinds of behaviors to make the dog appear as if it "has it", when in reality, if something intense that the dog has never seen (like these tests) come crashing on top of the dog, its true colors come out. If I had a need for a trained dog from Mike, I'd rather know what it brings on its own, supplemented by training.

Reminds me of one time at a herding trial, one of the classes was one entry short of being able to be put on, so the judges who knew my mother, begged my mother to enter in one of her BC's, just to fill the spot. This BC wasn't even at the trial, because it doesnt herd. This dog had never seen sheep before (she was 7ish at the time). She did, however have great obedience. My mother ran home and grabbed her, came back and went out into the arena laughing all the way out saying "this outta be interesting". Using nothing but obedience, she took her class, HIT, and tons of praise on her run from other competitors who had no idea this dog didnt have a clue as to what it was doing. All faking it. If one of those sheep decided it was going to challenge the dog, everything would have been exposed, without question.


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## David Frost

I'd take him on the patrol side, would have to see more for detector work.

DFrost


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## mike suttle

David Frost said:


> I'd take him on the patrol side, would have to see more for detector work.
> 
> DFrost


That was the issue with this dog. He didn't have the hunt drive that we are looking for. Shame really, because he was good enough on the patrol side and I can always use good strong dogs like him, but they have to also hunt to pass our tests..........or yours I'm sure, David.


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## Brian Anderson

mike suttle said:


> That was the issue with this dog. He didn't have the hunt drive that we are looking for. Shame really, because he was good enough on the patrol side and I can always use good strong dogs like him, but they have to also hunt to pass our tests..........or yours I'm sure, David.


Its a real kicker when they are really strong on one side and so weak on the other.


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## Alex Eugene Blair

I am the owner of the dog in this video and this was my first time testing a dog through Mike Suttle. I understood before going there that the test were hard in the sense that he sells top quality PD dogs and dogs for top security use. This dog is titled in PSA and has a very strong bite. These dogs are worth a lot of money and have to be tested to the fullest of their capabilities. It is hard to judge anything based of the video without being there. There are keys in things to pick up from animal behavior that do not show in the video such as.. targeting especially through the eyes and body language. Mike Suttle is known for selling hard hitting high driven dogs. By posting the video all he was trying to show is the quality dog he would like to start testing in that particular test of bite work. This is the first time Drago (dog in video) has seen that kind of pressure from a decoy. Having experienced that after a week break back in the home environment he was very well prepared for anything the decoy's in this area had to throw at him... For example trying to flank him did not work to get him off the bite Also, having seen that he doesn't have a secondary target when his primary is taken away I have added in a secondary target aka leg bites. Also as I said previously this is my first time seeing Mike Suttle's test. Now I am fully capable of preparing the dogs in a way Mike will be satisfied in that field of bite work. Trying to say Mike is wrong in any part of the video is incorrect he is a very experienced and well respected member of the dog community. And the reason I didn't discontinue the test after his hunt test is to see what the rest of his test required for the next time I go to Mike Suttle to see in the sense a "green dog". But, Drago in no way lost drive or confidence in the field of bite work. If anything, he fully understands now how serious the fight with a man or any suspect can be like. Not every target is a 150 lb teenager. These dogs have to be fully prepared for the belligerent aka drunk or pcp user or larger high pain tolerance human beings. Drago could probably pass 100% of the tests administered by every canine vendor or buyer in the field of bite work. The video was not to show how to fail this test but in the sense how much heart they are looking in a dog to continue to pressure the human who doesn't go down easy and by ending with a prey bite aka the target has finally gone down, the dog learns from hard work and determination he can successfully win any fight.


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## Dave Colborn

Alex Eugene Blair said:


> I am the owner of the dog in this video and this was my first time testing a dog through Mike Suttle. I understood before going there that the test were hard in the sense that he sells top quality PD dogs and dogs for top security use. This dog is titled in PSA and has a very strong bite. These dogs are worth a lot of money and have to be tested to the fullest of their capabilities. It is hard to judge anything based of the video without being there. There are keys in things to pick up from animal behavior that do not show in the video such as.. targeting especially through the eyes and body language. Mike Suttle is known for selling hard hitting high driven dogs. By posting the video all he was trying to show is the quality dog he would like to start testing in that particular test of bite work. This is the first time Drago (dog in video) has seen that kind of pressure from a decoy. Having experienced that after a week break back in the home environment he was very well prepared for anything the decoy's in this area had to throw at him... For example trying to flank him did not work to get him off the bite Also, having seen that he doesn't have a secondary target when his primary is taken away I have added in a secondary target aka leg bites. Also as I said previously this is my first time seeing Mike Suttle's test. Now I am fully capable of preparing the dogs in a way Mike will be satisfied in that field of bite work. Trying to say Mike is wrong in any part of the video is incorrect he is a very experienced and well respected member of the dog community. And the reason I didn't discontinue the test after his hunt test is to see what the rest of his test required for the next time I go to Mike Suttle to see in the sense a "green dog". But, Drago in no way lost drive or confidence in the field of bite work. If anything, he fully understands now how serious the fight with a man or any suspect can be like. Not every target is a 150 lb teenager. These dogs have to be fully prepared for the belligerent aka drunk or pcp user or larger high pain tolerance human beings. Drago could probably pass 100% of the tests administered by every canine vendor or buyer in the field of bite work. The video was not to show how to fail this test but in the sense how much heart they are looking in a dog to continue to pressure the human who doesn't go down easy and by ending with a prey bite aka the target has finally gone down, the dog learns from hard work and determination he can successfully win any fight.


Have you got any current video of the dog? After the training at Mikes place?

Also curious for Mike, how many PSA titled dogs have you tested? How many passed. From this one it would look like "pom poms and clatter sticks" showed him how to pass your test pretty well.


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## Joby Becker

thanks for sharing the video Mike.

I honestly cant really see what the big deal is, is it becuase the dog came off or because he was exposed to a second of minor pain?

The dog was kicked away, as he would not take a leg. 

Dog was calmed down, settled with some nice patting and stroking and then while seated, and then given a nice easy bite, with a walkback, and good reactions from decoy for digging back in and biting harder, and then went to ground, with more reaction to dog, empowering him...

no matter what anyone says, this dog won that round, going got a little tough for him, he prevailed and should be stronger for it.

I did not see a dog that appeared to be very close to his breaking point..sure if he was kept off the bite for a long time, or this was repeated over and over, without boosting dog up (like was done), the dog could be broken, every dog has its breaking point.

to say that one more time and the dog would break or not want to get close to a man again I suppose is possible, but I didnt see anything close to that..in my mind at least...

ever watch dogs on pigs? or on bulls or cattle? or terriers on game? get busted up all the time, and jump right back in, and if they get really busted up, they get some healing time, and then go right back out and do it all again, if they are good dogs for the work that is..

The dog won that round....

nice dog Alex...


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## Timothy Saunders

from what I saw and the responses from those who give the test, I think all your dog needs is desire to pass the test. If he will keep on fighting or hunting Mike will buy the dog from you. He can train the rest. Pretty basic but difficult test.

just my 2 cents


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## mike suttle

Dave Colborn said:


> Also curious for Mike, how many PSA titled dogs have you tested? How many passed. From this one it would look like "pom poms and clatter sticks" showed him how to pass your test pretty well.


Dave, I have only tested a few PSA dogs for possible purchase, but I have worked several with normal pressure in a training mindset. As of yet I have not had one pass our testing for dual purpose work, but have bought a couple for single purpose detector dogs. I pressed Hill's old dog Rex pretty hard one day on a training field and he did well, he was a dog that I would have probably bought. I would have bought the dog in this video for sure if he hunted better. This dog did not pass the patrol dog portion because he was PSA titled, he passed because he had the heart to stay with me. 
I dont want to get into a what sport is better debate, but no sport gives a dog heart, desire, and character. I have tested many KNPV, IPO, and Ring titled dogs that fail miserably and some that do very well with the same test. Likewise I have tested plenty of 2 year old untitled dogs that easily pass this test, and some that dont even want to come into the building to bite me at all. I am sure there are many PSA dogs out there that would pass this test, and I am just as sure that there are also many PSA titled dogs that would run like hell when I do this to them. Wayne Dodge worked a few PSA titled dogs in an event in Florida a few years ago and I believe he ran every one of them. But again that is not really a reflection on the sport, but rather the heart of the dog. There were other dogs there that day that he couldn't run.


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## Michael Murphy

has a bitch ever passed ur test


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## Dave Colborn

Wasn't going for what sport was better. Just wondering if it was viable to find dogs there for work. Sounds like that is the case. 



mike suttle said:


> Dave, I have only tested a few PSA dogs for possible purchase, but I have worked several with normal pressure in a training mindset. As of yet I have not had one pass our testing for dual purpose work, but have bought a couple for single purpose detector dogs. I pressed Hill's old dog Rex pretty hard one day on a training field and he did well, he was a dog that I would have probably bought. I would have bought the dog in this video for sure if he hunted better. This dog did not pass the patrol dog portion because he was PSA titled, he passed because he had the heart to stay with me.
> I dont want to get into a what sport is better debate, but no sport gives a dog heart, desire, and character. I have tested many KNPV, IPO, and Ring titled dogs that fail miserably and some that do very well with the same test. Likewise I have tested plenty of 2 year old untitled dogs that easily pass this test, and some that dont even want to come into the building to bite me at all. I am sure there are many PSA dogs out there that would pass this test, and I am just as sure that there are also many PSA titled dogs that would run like hell when I do this to them. Wayne Dodge worked a few PSA titled dogs in an event in Florida a few years ago and I believe he ran every one of them. But again that is not really a reflection on the sport, but rather the heart of the dog. There were other dogs there that day that he couldn't run.


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## mike suttle

Dave Colborn said:


> Wasn't going for what sport was better. Just wondering if it was viable to find dogs there for work. Sounds like that is the case.


Oh Hell yes, absolutely. I would consider PSA a viable source to select police dogs from, as well as Ring, IPO, SDA, KNPV. Like I said, it is not the sport the dog is trained in that makes him pass our tests, it is the heart that he was born with. I won't turn down a dog from any background if he passes our tests. And I won't refuse to test one that has no working or training background at all either. I have bought dogs in Holland that had never seen any type of biting and still passed our slection test for a dual purpose prospect, although these are very rare.
I tested a 2 year old Dutchie in Holland several years ago that I will never forget.
The owner brought the dog from a barn and I took the leash, it was a very happy, social, and confident dog. I walked it around and dropped a ball on the ground, the dog ignored the ball. I kicked the ball one time and his ears perked up as he saw the ball roll, but still didn't pick it up. The owner kept telling me that the dog had never seen a ball or any toy in his life, and he had never done any bitework of any kind. But since I was there in the area testing other dogs I stopped by to look at his 2 year old 300 Euro Dutchie that happened to be a Rudy Pegge son. Anyway, I picked the ball up and teased him with it and pitched it a few feet in front of him, held him back and kicked it again and he started barking at the ball and dragging me to it. I let him have it and tugged with him a little, he ripped it from my hand and I had to choke him off of it. Then I pitched it again and he came unglued to go get it. After that he carried that ball around for the rest of the environmental and stability testing and at no point could I grab the string and snatch it away from him. I moved on to the hunt portion of the test and even though he had no technique at all he was very frantic about finding the ball and he never stopped searching for it until he found it. 
Long story short, he passed all of the detector dog testing and we moved onto the bitework. I had the owner hold him on a leash and I walked in front of him with a sleeve. He showed no interest at all, I popped a whip and he just stood there looking at me wagging his tail, not even pulling the slack out of the leash he was being held back on. I kicked the sleeve around a few times and noticed the same ear twitch that I saw with the ball testing, but still no barking or any real interest in the sleeve. After about 20 seconds of kicking the sleeve around he starting barking and getting excited about it, I picked it up and put it in his mouth and he bit it, took it from me and started thrashing it around. The handler kicked it back to me and just like with the ball, the dog started barking with a lot of excitement and really pulling hard to drag the handler to me. I put the sleeve on and gave him a miss, then a bite and he struck the sleeve like an IPO dog. Then I put the sleeve away and had the owner stake him out to a fence post. I walked up to the dog and threatened him, he wagged his tail, I threatened him harder, he wagged his tail, then I threatened him as much as I could do, he wagged his tail. Then I hurt him with the whip and he really tried to bite me and showed a lot of forward aggression immediately. At that point I stopped the test, drove the dog and owner to the vet for X rays and paid the man his 300 Euros before he changed his mind. A few weeks later that dog was sold to US Customs. He would have made a dual purpose dog for any department in the USA. I watched this dog progress more in one 30 minute session than most dogs progress in 2 months.


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## Dave Colborn

This is a similar story to my boxer (although he isn't that nutty or drivey I get what you are saying about having the ability without training, although training will cover up ability, even in your test. ). He only started taking a ball or toy after the bitework though but the bitework started similarly nothing was a threat really. loose leash. Until he had just had enough of being squared off with and stared at. Then he bit full and firm. Once he realized I would fight him for the toy, he worked for it. Not a demon for it, but for a three year old with no training not bad. I don't think I'll bring him for testing although I think he'd do decent on the bitework pressure, his hunting isn't stellar.



mike suttle said:


> Oh Hell yes, absolutely. I would consider PSA a viable source to select police dogs from, as well as Ring, IPO, SDA, KNPV. Like I said, it is not the sport the dog is trained in that makes him pass our tests, it is the heart that he was born with. I won't turn down a dog from any background if he passes our tests. And I won't refuse to test one that has no working or training background at all either. I have bought dogs in Holland that had never seen any type of biting and still passed our slection test for a dual purpose prospect, although these are very rare.
> I tested a 2 year old Dutchie in Holland several years ago that I will never forget.
> The owner brought the dog from a barn and I took the leash, it was a very happy, social, and confident dog. I walked it around and dropped a ball on the ground, the dog ignored the ball. I kicked the ball one time and his ears perked up as he saw the ball roll, but still didn't pick it up. The owner kept telling me that the dog had never seen a ball or any toy in his life, and he had never done any bitework of any kind. But since I was there in the area testing other dogs I stopped by to look at his 2 year old 300 Euro Dutchie that happened to be a Rudy Pegge son. Anyway, I picked the ball up and teased him with it and pitched it a few feet in front of him, held him back and kicked it again and he started barking at the ball and dragging me to it. I let him have it and tugged with him a little, he ripped it from my hand and I had to choke him off of it. Then I pitched it again and he came unglued to go get it. After that he carried that ball around for the rest of the environmental and stability testing and at no point could I grab the string and snatch it away from him. I moved on to the hunt portion of the test and even though he had no technique at all he was very frantic about finding the ball and he never stopped searching for it until he found it.
> Long story short, he passed all of the detector dog testing and we moved onto the bitework. I had the owner hold him on a leash and I walked in front of him with a sleeve. He showed no interest at all, I popped a whip and he just stood there looking at me wagging his tail, not even pulling the slack out of the leash he was being held back on. I kicked the sleeve around a few times and noticed the same ear twitch that I saw with the ball testing, but still no barking or any real interest in the sleeve. After about 20 seconds of kicking the sleeve around he starting barking and getting excited about it, I picked it up and put it in his mouth and he bit it, took it from me and started thrashing it around. The handler kicked it back to me and just like with the ball, the dog started barking with a lot of excitement and really pulling hard to drag the handler to me. I put the sleeve on and gave him a miss, then a bite and he struck the sleeve like an IPO dog. Then I put the sleeve away and had the owner stake him out to a fence post. I walked up to the dog and threatened him, he wagged his tail, I threatened him harder, he wagged his tail, then I threatened him as much as I could do, he wagged his tail. Then I hurt him with the whip and he really tried to bite me and showed a lot of forward aggression immediately. At that point I stopped the test, drove the dog and owner to the vet for X rays and paid the man his 300 Euros before he changed his mind. A few weeks later that dog was sold to US Customs. He would have made a dual purpose dog for any department in the USA. I watched this dog progress more in one 30 minute session than most dogs progress in 2 months.


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## Daniel Lybbert

do you have a vid of your hunt drive test? or a description of what it will entail?


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## ben litchfield

mike,do you have a separate test to check for kit orientation and civil attitude of the dog as these will progress on to be operational dogs.


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## mike suttle

ben litchfield said:


> mike,do you have a separate test to check for kit orientation and civil attitude of the dog as these will progress on to be operational dogs.


yes.......and , no. I do pick the dogs up and make sure they are comfortable with strangers handling them and are social or neutral to being lifted up by a stranger, I will put a muzzle or body harness on them to make sure they are not going to get aggressive about it. But I don't fail a dog if he doesn't like the kit, only if he gets overly aggressive about it and doesn't calm down and relax. In my opinion all of the kit work is something he can learn. Here is a video of Ivo getting some kit on, this was about two weeks after I started getting him used to it. The first time he saw this stuff he tried to take it from me and make a big game of it. You can see here he shows a little stress about having to stand to be geared up, this is due to a fight that we had over it several days before this video was shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4dGncLCdWs&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A


As far as the civil attitude, I only buy social, confident dogs. I dont really need the dog to show me open signs of civil aggression, I just need him to be stable, confident, highly driven and have a never ending desire to stay with me in a fight.
I hope that answers your question Ben, not sure if it did or not.


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## mike suttle

Daniel Lybbert said:


> do you have a vid of your hunt drive test? or a description of what it will entail?


There are several videos of this testing on our Youtube channel. If you have trouble finding them I can send you the links.


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## ben litchfield

it does answer most of it,thanks.im just also wondering if in another assessment you would slip the equipment(jacket or sleeve etc)and see if the dog would spit it out to re-engage the man.i see(and i may be wrong!!)a very good test for mental pressure on the dog,but is the dog fighting the man or has his previous training taught him to understand that a mouth full of equipment will reduce the pressure from the criminal?i would be interested to see what would have happened if you slipped the equipment in front of any of the dogs you posted clips of and continued to apply pressure(where would the focus be?)

i ask simply for my further education,not to criticize anything you have posted


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## mike suttle

ben litchfield said:


> it does answer most of it,thanks.im just also wondering if in another assessment you would slip the equipment(jacket or sleeve etc)and see if the dog would spit it out to re-engage the man.i see(and i may be wrong!!)a very good test for mental pressure on the dog,but is the dog fighting the man or has his previous training taught him to understand that a mouth full of equipment will reduce the pressure from the criminal?i would be interested to see what would have happened if you slipped the equipment in front of any of the dogs you posted clips of and continued to apply pressure(where would the focus be?)
> 
> i ask simply for my further education,not to criticize anything you have posted


I may test that in some dogs, but never fail a dog if he will take the amount of pressure that I put on him in the test I posted here. I can almost always train a dog to come back to the man after the equipment is slipped to him. That is easier for me to do than train one to have the heart I am looking for.


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## ben litchfield

ok thanks mike


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## Derek Milliken

Mike,
I think with your original video and the subsequent discussion, you've sparked one of the more interesting threads on here in a bit. 
Always good to be reminded that sport and work compliment each other but aren't the same. It would be nice to see the two camps work closer together a lot of the time. 
Derek


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## Nicole Stark

Daniel Lybbert said:


> do you have a vid of your hunt drive test? or a description of what it will entail?


I was going to link to this yesterday because a few people have asked about it in this thread. I'm pretty sure this will cover what some of you wanted to know. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/one-part-detection-dog-selection-test-19966/

If I recall correctly there were a few more threads like this that Mike created. Maybe two more... been laid up sick so I am not exactly sure how many more he made on the topic.


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## Britney Pelletier

Alex Eugene Blair said:


> I am the owner of the dog in this video and this was my first time testing a dog through Mike Suttle. I understood before going there that the test were hard in the sense that he sells top quality PD dogs and dogs for top security use. This dog is titled in PSA and has a very strong bite. These dogs are worth a lot of money and have to be tested to the fullest of their capabilities. It is hard to judge anything based of the video without being there. There are keys in things to pick up from animal behavior that do not show in the video such as.. targeting especially through the eyes and body language. Mike Suttle is known for selling hard hitting high driven dogs. By posting the video all he was trying to show is the quality dog he would like to start testing in that particular test of bite work. This is the first time Drago (dog in video) has seen that kind of pressure from a decoy. Having experienced that after a week break back in the home environment he was very well prepared for anything the decoy's in this area had to throw at him... For example trying to flank him did not work to get him off the bite Also, having seen that he doesn't have a secondary target when his primary is taken away I have added in a secondary target aka leg bites. Also as I said previously this is my first time seeing Mike Suttle's test. Now I am fully capable of preparing the dogs in a way Mike will be satisfied in that field of bite work. Trying to say Mike is wrong in any part of the video is incorrect he is a very experienced and well respected member of the dog community. And the reason I didn't discontinue the test after his hunt test is to see what the rest of his test required for the next time I go to Mike Suttle to see in the sense a "green dog". But, Drago in no way lost drive or confidence in the field of bite work. If anything, he fully understands now how serious the fight with a man or any suspect can be like. Not every target is a 150 lb teenager. These dogs have to be fully prepared for the belligerent aka drunk or pcp user or larger high pain tolerance human beings. Drago could probably pass 100% of the tests administered by every canine vendor or buyer in the field of bite work. The video was not to show how to fail this test but in the sense how much heart they are looking in a dog to continue to pressure the human who doesn't go down easy and by ending with a prey bite aka the target has finally gone down, the dog learns from hard work and determination he can successfully win any fight.


Did you buy this dog from Jonathan Katz? If so, why are you selling him? Feel free to PM me if you'd like. I'm curious as to why he's for sale if it's the same dog.


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## Alex Eugene Blair

Yes this dog was sold to me by Jonathan Kats. I bought Drago because he passed all of my tests as a green dog for potential dual purpose work. I am a dog trainer like I said before PSA is not popular in my area nor is any sport. I often buy sport dogs with good bite work foundation to use in my company for police dogs. Thanks


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## jim stevens

Joby Becker said:


> thanks for sharing the video Mike.
> 
> I honestly cant really see what the big deal is, is it becuase the dog came off or because he was exposed to a second of minor pain?
> 
> The dog was kicked away, as he would not take a leg.
> 
> Dog was calmed down, settled with some nice patting and stroking and then while seated, and then given a nice easy bite, with a walkback, and good reactions from decoy for digging back in and biting harder, and then went to ground, with more reaction to dog, empowering him...
> 
> no matter what anyone says, this dog won that round, going got a little tough for him, he prevailed and should be stronger for it.
> 
> I did not see a dog that appeared to be very close to his breaking point..sure if he was kept off the bite for a long time, or this was repeated over and over, without boosting dog up (like was done), the dog could be broken, every dog has its breaking point.
> 
> to say that one more time and the dog would break or not want to get close to a man again I suppose is possible, but I didnt see anything close to that..in my mind at least...
> 
> ever watch dogs on pigs? or on bulls or cattle? or terriers on game? get busted up all the time, and jump right back in, and if they get really busted up, they get some healing time, and then go right back out and do it all again, if they are good dogs for the work that is..
> 
> The dog won that round....
> 
> nice dog Alex...


This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I am nothing but a beginner, but I have done many of the same things, pushing my dog off with hands and feet, picking her up, backing her into objects in the house, dragging her over furniture, letting her bite in the dark, in strange rooms, etc. I have on occasion caused her to let go, but as long as she lunges in and rebites deeper, I think it's all good. One time, I pushed a little too far, and had to gather her back up, but she is only 19 months now and I'm learning. She is a pretty confident dog, and pretty fearless even as a pup, so fairly forgiving in that aspect. It has been a revelation to me that a dog needs to be subjected to bitework, or any kind of work in as many unusual situations as possible, as any variation may throw them off balance.


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## Erik Berg

Mike, if just looking at a dog in a sporttrial, can you judge what "type" of dog that has a good chance to be stronger in environments and bitework in this test, or is this very hard considering the fact you said you have tested KNPV-titled dogs that didn´t do well. I suppose these titled dogs looked good in their normal routine on the sportfield? 

Here is a selectiontest from finland, don´t know how much pretraining the dog has but I suppose this dog could do well in your test also, or?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qddFks0wZAE

Where to draw the line what is good enough or not for a dual purpose dog is not always clear I suppose, not all tests are identical and the background of the dog can vary quite much. Some even disslike the focus nowadays on stability in every possible enviroment and may feel this is easier for a breed like the malinois with very high prey that tend to take a lot of pressure as long as it has a tug or sleeve to focus on. Don´t know what to believe, but I guess a pretty green and inexperienced GSD that is very good in tracking and for protection in normal environments should maybe not be washed out for patrollwork becase he let go of a tug when dragged up on tables and heights, at least not if it´s trainable and not to much of a hindrance in his daily work. But opionions differ I suppose.

Don´t know how these dogs would fare in your test or what you think of them, the pressure from the man is not so hard, but on the other hand the bitework is more adapted to dogs that may have none or little experience in that part, so it´s hard to say what´s easier and not maybe. Even if the tests have some similarities it is not identical depending what part of the country you test the dog in, approved for policedog in this case only means suited for further training in that direction, not that the dogs necessarily is suited all the way when further training is started.

This dog didn´t pass, it doesn´t shows in the film but according to the owner the dog has a slight reservation in contacts with strangers and apparantly nipped the judge a little when he tried to make contact physically with the dog. If it´s relevant or not can be discussed, they accepted him in finland as patrolldog,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_2a5dELO8o

A GSD a little under 2 years old, tested at the same place and passed,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRWLp5vctQM

Female GSD, tested by another policedepartment, passed the test, strong parts her prey and hunt and not overly sensitive in different environments, low aggresion but with experience can be increased according to the judge,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsSYeoJCkHQ

Female doberman, some experience with IPO-training, did pass the test,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdz6Sysvrnk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH0gctQvRSM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRuUQnOvh9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXP4xzAFwQQ

Male malinois about 17 months, approved for security but not dual purpose police, reason the dog is insecure to strangers, and in combination with a serious side and little bit of "worry" it may not be suited to work indepently away from the handler and without his handlers support

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=K_9HdQ4L0S4


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## mike suttle

Erik,
Thank you very much for posting these videos. I am about to get on the road now for several days and I only had time to watch the first video. I really liked what I saw from the first dog and I am sure that dog would pass our dual purpose selection test. The environmental testing looks very similar to what I do here and that dog did fine. I will for sure watch the other videos as soon as I can when I get back.

I will try to get some videos of our test from the start to the end, but it will have to be broken down into small videos because I can not upload any video longer than about 2 or 3 minutes here where I live.


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## Ken Seminatore

Very good video. Excellent fight drive, this is not sport work. How about muzzle work?


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## Ben Thompson

PSA seems like a rougher sport then IPO to me.....maybe there are just so many more schutzhund clubs world wide.... that there is a larger pool of dogs to pick from. I don't think there is much if any scent work in PSA I don't know if that could effect how a dog does in hunt drive test......


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## Ken Seminatore

Maybe the fight was too long. The PO handler would have gotten there sooner so that the dog wins the fight.


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