# Just had a serious OH SH*T moment



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

An hour ago I was doing dishes and my wife came and swatted me on my rump(quite hard) and jumped on my back. My Male is always around me... he sprung up from the floor and barred his teeth at her in full on aggression mode. I choked him out for it and threw him in the dark laundry room for a good 45 minutes.

We just returned from playing ball - wife included but he's clearly weird about my wife now and inserts himself between her and I when she gets close. I've given him two knees to his side for this behavior. I need to fix this now....

My wife does almost all of the feeding and she runs or walks with the dog almost everyday without issue. His behavior was very unexpected towards her.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

That'll teach you to do dishes!  Just kidding.... How old is your male?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

he's 18mo this week. 

He seems fine now but then again he seemed fine before this moring. His behavior is something totally unexpected. We've been training PP and he would have bitten the helper so he seems to know not to bite my wife.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

My now deceased Rott would not allow anyone including friends, adult family or foe hit or push me. Family knew the situation and avoided any of that type contact. Old friends also understood. I would warn new friends not greet me with a slap on the back when he was around. Kids were never a problem.

The few times it happened he went nuts!

I was always able to call him off before any bites took place.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris BIG MISTAKE x 2.

#1 Your male didn't KNOW she was playing and thought you were the weaker of the two in that a$$ whooping. He did what he should have, let someone know to not screw with pop.

#2 One day your dog might have a real issue to deal with and then not react..."Cry Wolf."

This is the problem when folks horseplay around working dogs. Most K-9 cops don't hoseplay around the handler, even the little dumb stuff, because some dept. head will have a report to deal with regarding an inhouse K-9 bite...Just something to think about when the two of you strike the "moment." :wink: :mrgreen:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks Howard. Its well understood now there is no horseplay in the house not even in the name of love.

One of my helper buds called me back and we gave him a few bites this morning with the same type of scenario. We had his son take a bite too. The son has never worked my dog. Then I left the house and they did the same thing with only my wife as the handler. Previously she'd not done any handling with him aside from feeding, walks and runs. The dog doesn't seem to be affected by the choke out as far as I can tell. He's here by my feet as usual and performed well with the bites in the house. 

I didn't know what else to do when he turn on my wife. When I grabbed his collar he lunged and that's when I choked him and segregated him. In my eyes I was treating the situation the same as I do when he's attacked the pugs who stand no chance a dog like him. There are certain things that are off limits - pugs and wives. Can't have him biting the wife, cuz then I'd lose the wife AND the dog :roll:





Howard Gaines III said:


> Chris BIG MISTAKE x 2.
> 
> #1 Your male didn't KNOW she was playing and thought you were the weaker of the two in that a$$ whooping. He did what he should have, let someone know to not screw with pop.
> 
> ...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris glad we can roast ya! Did you go to the blind search posting...:mrgreen: 
Hammer Time...can't touch this! =; LOL 

I'll bet your wife was at a loss for words. Had a black shepherd years ago that did the same thing. Wrestling with a neighbor's kid and Tara pegged him in the calf. Nothing big, just don't mess with pop. I learned after that one! Keeping the peace. #-o


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Blind search post? um... yeah... *one* of them :^o

The wife isn't into the biting dog thing so much and if anything had happened that would have been it for him and you would have seen a posting - Rottweiler Free to good home. 




Howard Gaines III said:


> Chris glad we can roast ya! Did you go to the blind search posting...:mrgreen:
> Hammer Time...can't touch this! =; LOL
> 
> I'll bet your wife was at a loss for words. Had a black shepherd years ago that did the same thing. Wrestling with a neighbor's kid and Tara pegged him in the calf. Nothing big, just don't mess with pop. I learned after that one! Keeping the peace. #-o


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Could one deduce from this incident that you haven't taught the dog an "out" command? Excluding exercises on who the dog is allowed to bite and who he isn't (which in my mind would be very confusing) how is the dog supposed to know. An out command would have prevented the need for the choking and kneeing etc.

DFrost


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Could one deduce from this incident that you haven't taught the dog an "out" command? Excluding exercises on who the dog is allowed to bite and who he isn't (which in my mind would be very confusing) how is the dog supposed to know. An out command would have prevented the need for the choking and kneeing etc.
> 
> DFrost


He knows OUT but in my head (I don't claim to have my head screwed on straight) he warranted a severe correction for showing aggression to a member of the immediate household. I thought by outting him it's telling him it's OK to do what he did but I called him off. The knee jabs weren't hard at all I just didn't want him inserting himself between the wife and I. She's not an enemy EVER. So my thinking is screwed up? 

We haven't done any exclusionary biting exercises so I can understand how he could have been confused. I'm following the advice of many where there is no horseplay in the house period.

I really think, my biggest mistake was leaving his rayallen collar on this morning. I usually take it off in the truck after we work him but this morning there was a cat in the neighbor's yard so I lead my dog into the house with his collar and left it on for some stupid reason. 

I've been more focused on making sure the dog is still cool with me, wife and biting others in appropriate situcations. Seems like all is well. I've only been tough on him before when he was swinging a pug around in the living room by his neck.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't usually post to training dilemmas because there is plenty of advice available. There is something that is vitally important within household roles. And that is the order. Rotties are notorious for claiming space and determining the "rules". 

Equally balanced obedience to protection work can offset the dog from making his own rules, especially if he's been built in the protection role. You may consider increasing his level of obedience that occurs on and off the field. And that is probably not the whole answer. 

The other part is... if your wife walks around him when he's laying somewhere or if he'll get up and move for her. Will he give up his spot to your wife without a problem? And BTW, I wouldn't let this sleep dog on the bed and that is huge an often creates an order problem. 

The dog can learn to yield to family members and not need to yield to your decoy. By yielding, he is understanding his role. If your wife yields to him in the house, then this message is sending him a very clear message. Yielding isn't confrontational or harsh, its just a normal event that occurs in every day life and the dogs learns to respect everyone and not just choose, one person to be obedient to.

Just a suggestion.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks Melody (or Richard),

We have five dogs in the house(three rotts two pugs). Wifey knows how to not let him or any of them dominate. He doesn't get up on the furniture unless asked and he doesn't sleep on the bed on unless asked which is rare since he doesn't like being on the bed anyway. 

Could it be a rank issues? Possibly. I don't work a typical day job and when I go to the studio the dog comes with me. The dog is almost always with me. He's a velcro dog and travels from room to room with me. When I'm away for days at a time, my wife has no issues with him and she says she likes him better when I'm gone.

I think there were a couple of issues that set up the situation. One his working collar was stupidly left on, two he goes nuts at the sharp crack of anything like a whip or fly swatter. A slap on my touche generated a nice crack (no pun intended) and that set him off. His collar is like a switch in many ways. My dogs do not normally wear collars in the house.

I've seen the dog be slightly weird during female superior intimate moments so we make sure the doors are shut or the dogs are put up. I simply never expected him to show aggression to my wife. I think he's fine, he's be corrected harshly for showing aggression to the other dogs in the house and there haven't been issues since and he's still fairly dog aggressive outside the home.

As far as OB is concerned, he's very obedient. I trust him anywhere on or off leash. I was at Lowes a while ago and a woman asked if he was a guide dog because he was so gentle... yeah if she only knew... BUT he is very gentle and exhibits that classic rottie calmness when he's not chasing down a decoy.

Anyway, he bit well this morning and then again when the helper and his son drove over to work him in the same scenario to demonstrate it's OK to be aggressive to others who attack me but never the wife.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Interesting Chris,

Just last week Zauro jumped on my husband for playing around like that. My husband walked up behind me and went to hug me from behind in a very quick movement. Zauro reacted and made sure he let go of me. Because he had never reacted to him like this before, I like you wasn't sure how to correct for this action. I stood in between them and told Zo to Auf. He listened and things have been fine since. 

Now, in training, I have had scenarios where I have been attacked from behind as well as me hiding and screaming and Zo has to find/protect me. So was he reacting to a training scenarios , protecting me or both?:-k 

Zo was purchased as a ppd for me. My husband asked the trainer what would happen if he came after me with a frying pan, trying to be funny. They trainer told him that Zo would pick up a frying pan and go after him! Although my husband is a member of the "pack" and Zo will protect us, it will be me that he is most protective of because it is I who handles/feeds him.

IMO, your wife feeding and running with him is great. It's definitely to her advantage the more she is involved with him. Not to mention what a good wife she is if she doesn't understand the biting thing.8)

PS-no husband was harmed because of my dogs action=D>


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

All the things being discussed here aside from the actual incident are not relevant to the situation. Yes a dog must understand his place within a household yet we are getting away from the actual problem. 

The problem on this side is two fold, you and your wife. You both in my opinion made major mistakes… you are training a protection dog, he is expected to protect you, period. Your wife should not have come in with the horseplay while the dog was present, dog reacts as he should, as he has been taught, then you overly correct him for doing the right thing.

A dog, especially a young adult like yours can not be expected to make this type of decision. This is your role, to be the thinker behind his muscle, the person who does not let stupid situations like this come to play. You have to take many precautions with a dog who has been trained in bite work, they are often irritating and inconvenient yet necessary. If you are unwilling or unable to make these many sacrifices then you should simply not train your dog in this manner, if you are then you have to think about everything before it happens.

I know it can be frustrating, I have a Dutchy that would eat my wifes face off if she ever did something like that to me in his presence, we both understand dogs and respect what the situation calls for. Our dogs are treated as family members yet we never forget who they are and what they are trained for. 

Ground rules should be laid out and followed without exception in order for this union to work. I am not trying to criticize you in a harsh manner here, yet I feel that you should know it was your fault… not the dogs.

Just my two cents

Wayne


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Wayne, I absolutely agree with you. The guy that I train with said pretty much the same thing. 

Thank you.





Wayne Dodge said:


> All the things being discussed here aside from the actual incident are not relevant to the situation. Yes a dog must understand his place within a household yet we are getting away from the actual problem.
> 
> The problem on this side is two fold, you and your wife. You both in my opinion made major mistakes… you are training a protection dog, he is expected to protect you, period. Your wife should not have come in with the horseplay while the dog was present, dog reacts as he should, as he has been taught, then you overly correct him for doing the right thing.
> 
> ...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I had Rottweilers for a little over 20 years they are some strange dogs and they get some strange notions possessive and greedy the one I have had and the ones I have know really shouldn't be in a family or urban situation with. Kids play run scream leave the doors open neighbors stopping by. I allways put mine away when people and kids were around.
My SCH III Joker when I would do retrieves would sit in front of me looking up at me with his little stump tail wiggling growling till I outed the dumbbell. (used a little compulsion to put a little pep in his step)
I also did forced article indication with him I would go to pick up my/his article and he would be down in the sphinx position with his head on it growling and snarling . Had one judge say "glad you got to get it" 
I'm a Schutzhund guy and and Rottweilers really don't like to do Schutzhund. I'm not that good of dog trainer I'm not willing to piss around any more. Not sure how many of you all have been around good ones they are nasty basters that are strong willed and don't take kindly to much manipulation. When they decide there done you call it a day or go get your hockey goalie gear and work things out.
Chris sounds like you may have a good one :mrgreen:and may have your hands full what till he gets 2 or 2 1/2 and get a set of nutz on him. Lemme know if you need some hockey gear I don't need mine any more.:mrgreen:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote : The problem on this side is two fold, you and your wife. You both in my opinion made major mistakes… you are training a protection dog, he is expected to protect you, period. Your wife should not have come in with the horseplay while the dog was present, dog reacts as he should, as he has been taught, then you overly correct him for doing the right thing.

Finally. LOL

We have way too many new people here. LOL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Could one deduce from this incident that you haven't taught the dog an "out" command? Excluding exercises on who the dog is allowed to bite and who he isn't (which in my mind would be very confusing) how is the dog supposed to know. An out command would have prevented the need for the choking and kneeing etc.
> 
> DFrost


Well said - it's one command my dogs have to obey immediately, saved quite a few vet bills, or doctors' fees, whichever.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Well said - it's one command my dogs have to obey immediately, saved quite a few vet bills, or doctors' fees, whichever.


he knows out but I was thinking it's not ok to be aggressive to pack members period. I was PROTECTION MODE at that point. Understand this wasn't some little grumpy growl this was full on I am going to kill you aggression. I've seen that face on him before. I could have said out but my wif was going into ass kicking mode and he's taught not to back down from that game. I just know he would have engaged, he bites hard and on a 120lbs woman a bone is going to break. Besides, she needs her arms to be doing the dishes, I'm too stressed out about it now...:-({|= 


Anyway the situation is over and my eyes are more open now than this morning. It seems the dog isn't screwed up...just me. :razz:


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Actually, the reason that I mentioned the yielding issue is because your living situation is unknown to most. Many dogs get the wrong message when it hasn't learned to give up its space. Especially, rottweilers and akitas. 

I agree that the situation had several mistakes that lead to the problem which included the horseplay and associated equipment that is used during prot work. 

But in the bigger picture of things, it can be a very common issue with working rottweilers to learn how to "play the game" of do this and get what I want and they become very strong in other areas and can become opportunists. Then when they become 2-2 1/2 yrs of age, they take it too a new level which is I'm happy and friendly and you will pet me and when I am through with you, I will either nail you without warning or growl. They do this to someone they consider subordinate. 

I titled a rott in schutzhund and have owned a few others. And I've seen some really bad bites(head, facial bites) on people in casual living situations because things didn't seem significant, early on. 

But yes, a mgt. issue is the first line of defense.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> An hour ago I was doing dishes and my wife came and swatted me on my rump(quite hard) and jumped on my back.


You need to shoot the dog and pay more attention to your wife.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Wayne, well said. Thank you.

Jeff, we all started somewhere, even YOU.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm not new to Rotts or dogs BUT this is my first male rottie and he can be pretty dominant if I let him. He used do things like put all of the other dogs in avoidance with his glare. He pretty good about it now but there are times he's vibing on the others to the point they leave the room or go outside. 

Let me ask... am I creating a monster by allowing him to be a velcro dog? For the most part I like having him around but there are times where I tell him to go to bed and he will.

Our routine is fairly steady. We're out the door by 4:30-5am when I'm home. If I'm not on my way to the training field then we head down to an 11 acre field about a half mile from my home (we walk) If I go to the field then I have all three rotties, a tug and a kong. I can walk them all off lead and sometimes I do when we walk to the field. Either way its a brisk walk and they all heel - not attention heeling but heel. They all sit when I stop.

When I get to the field, I make the furthest two dogs platz while I play balabanov's game with the other one. We do most of the things in the schH OB routine sans jumps. I do the most OB work with my male because he's my competition dog.

Then I throw kong for them. There are sizeable hills in this field so I mostly make them run the hills. I occasionally make them platz from a distance (as far as I can throw the kong) Then we return home. After they cool down they get to eat. Then they sleep for the rest of the day. Around 5pm I do a little ob with my male which is articles these days. Then we eat. We subcribe to NILIF so everybody has to do something for their bowl. 

Then it's poop duty. \\/ By then my wife is home and she may or may not walk or take a short run to chill out from her job. By 10pm we drive up to the field again where I shine my hi-beams on to the grass and throw kong for 20 minutes.

Now it's bed time, the pugs sleep on the bed. My male sleeps on the floor next to my side of the bed. One of the females sleeps in the door way to the room and the other sleeps by the front door of the house - I often hear her patrolling the house in the middle of the night - hope its not a ghost.

Every morning at 4:33 on the button my male put his head on the bed in my face. That's when I usually get up. So that's my living situation. 



Melody Greba said:


> Actually, the reason that I mentioned the yielding issue is because your living situation is unknown to most. Many dogs get the wrong message when it hasn't learned to give up its space. Especially, rottweilers and akitas.
> 
> I agree that the situation had several mistakes that lead to the problem which included the horseplay and associated equipment that is used during prot work.
> 
> ...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You need to shoot the dog and pay more attention to your wife.



I'm already doing the cooking, her dirty dishes and laundry...wait a minute...something ain't right here...:-k


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote: "I'm not new to Rotts or dogs BUT this is my first male rottie and he can be pretty dominant if I let him. He used do things like put all of the other dogs in avoidance with his glare. He pretty good about it now but there are times he's vibing on the others to the point they leave the room or go outside. 

Let me ask... am I creating a monster by allowing him to be a velcro dog?"
________________________(yea... I don't know how to use the quote thing)

The domance glare is a making subordinates yield. That's why it's an exercise that doesn't hurt to practice by your wife to make him yield in non confrontation way as a reminder. It helps.

Taking him with you all the time makes you a very high stake. And because you are, a serious action for his mistake would be something that I'd expect from you. Drawing the line early on, regardless of what set off the behavior can be his saving grace later on. She's still a pack member.

I do aggressive dog evaluations regularly, and it is unbelievable the amount of people that feel the victim deserved it. (not that you did) I had one family with a boxer with control/dominance issues within the family unit, blame their 11 yr old son for doing something that the dog didn't like (it was minor, just can't remember what it was) and the dog pinned him to the wall, face to face-nose to nose. The parents allowed it by remaining silent... No intervention. The parents were responsible for empowering the dog by remaining silent, thus giving permission. OBTW, they came to me for their other boxer who was too active and jumped on people because of no manners. 
Same goes for small dogs that were spoiled, and the newly walking 1-2 yr old that won't leave the dog alone. The parents tell the kid to quit, the kid doesn't and the kid ends up in the emergency room with stitches in his cheek, lip, pick a part. This is mentally tramatic for a child and this foundation will have taught the kid to be afraid of dogs and they often carry this lesson with them throughout life. Lack of mgt and the parent's selfish ideas that it's not fair to the dog to make him change because he's always been their baby is a constant problem in the pet population. (not suggesting that you are a pet owner.... just examples of what I deal with)

I think you sent your dog a very clear message about where the line was drawn. Maybe it wasn't the best thought out, but regardless, it was a message.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> he knows out but I was thinking it's not ok to be aggressive to pack members period. I was PROTECTION MODE at that point. Understand this wasn't some little grumpy growl this was full on I am going to kill you aggression. I've seen that face on him before. I could have said out but my wif was going into ass kicking mode and he's taught not to back down from that game. .:-({|=
> 
> 
> Anyway the situation is over and my eyes are more open now than this morning. It seems the dog isn't screwed up...just me. :razz:


I guess this where I don't understand the difference between a PSD and Protection dog. Obviously, the dog didn't see a "pack" member. The dog saw an attack on you. With a PSD, the bite would have already happened, unless there was enough distance to give the "out" command.
Out is your friend. It should be as bomb proof as possible. That way, in the event another mistaken identity or oops moment happens, you have a safety.

DFrost


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