# Boris Doeze pups



## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

I know there are several people in the states that have pups out of Boris Doeze, I was wondering if anyone could tell me what they are seeing in their pup/dog. Good traits, bad traits and how they are progressing in your training program. Share some video too.
Thanks!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I have two female littermates. One is mine and the other I am training another for someone else. Both have good prey, aggression and solid bites. One is biddable the other is a pain in the ass when it comes to corrections. Both are solid medium sized females. I would say both are good dogs but not special.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

will fernandez said:


> I have two female littermates. One is mine and the other I am training another for someone else. Both have good prey, aggression and solid bites. One is biddable the other is a pain in the ass when it comes to corrections. Both are solid medium sized females. I would say both are good dogs but not special.


Thanks will.. thats exactly what I'm looking for! How old are they and who was the bitch?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have had three litters from Boris now. What I have noticed in all three of those litters has been pretty similar. Good nerves and good grips. Overall I'd say they have below average prey drive, however I have had a few that were very driven pups. I had a solid black male in my first litter from Boris with Noa that was on track to be a monster, had good prey drive , great nerves, and a monster grip, I sold him and I heard he was later re sold. I'd love to have that pup back now.
I had one litter with Boris X Noa, one litter with Boris X Maud (Jari Berghorst daughter) and one litter with Boris X Chanel (Ringo Wolterink daughter) The nerves of about every pup was pretty good, and most of them had very full grips.

Here is a video of a female Boris pup from my first Boris litter. The black male that I sold was much better, but this was a nice female.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1kVNM0FwZ4&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=20


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

low prey drive for a malinois? how would you compare it to the prey drive of a good gsd?

what about the bitches did their lines produce low prey drive or higher?

is boris the brother of Tyson brn = 16786? (i dont know how to use the knpv pedigree database)

PS is Boris's bloodline known for producing low prey drive or is it something he produces himself


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## Mladen Bezak (Jan 15, 2011)

I have son from Boris, I expected good working prospect, but I get just pet dog. 
Very low aport and hunt drive, very handler sensitive and average bite. 
Small size... slow mature, so just average dog.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> low prey drive for a malinois? how would you compare it to the prey drive of a good gsd?
> 
> what about the bitches did their lines produce low prey drive or higher?
> 
> ...


Low drive is low drive, in my opinion a good GSD should have the drive of a good malinois.
But I didn't say Boris produced low drive dogs, what I said was many of the Boris pups in my three litters had below average prey drive, but some had excellent prey drive. 
Boris is not a brother to Tyson.
Boris is a son from Django, one of the best produces of high prey drive dogs that I've seen.
Boris is an excellent dog and I have seen excellent dogs from him, but the litters that I had were average overall with very good grips and strong will to fight, also good nerves, but less prey drive than what I like.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

thanks

also mike if you dont mind me asking, i know you have had a lot of breedings, which stud do you think produced the best pups you like, over a variety of different females?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> thanks
> 
> also mike if you dont mind me asking, i know you have had a lot of breedings, which stud do you think produced the best pups you like, over a variety of different females?


Here in our kennel without any doubt at all it was Arco Roosen. From what I have seen so far my Rudy (a Django son) is producing very well too, but time will tell if his pups are as good as the ones from Arco.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

do u mind posting the pedigree


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

My pup has nice prey drive. He is not a crazy prey monster like some but he has more than enough to do the work and still keep a clear head. Also, his prey drive was a little slow developing. We really started to see it come out nicely around 12 to 16 weeks. That may be normal, I am just comparing him to my female who was a prey nut out of the box. 

I have also seen him get very serious about his bite work in the last week (about 7 months). He has become more combative and really gets off inflicting pain on the decoy. 

Also


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> do u mind posting the pedigree


Do you mean the pedigrees of Arco and Rudy? or the pedigree of Boris? You can see all three of them on bloedlijnen. Search Arco Suttle, Rudy Suttle, and Boris Doeze.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

how do you use that website its all in dutch


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Austin Porter said:


> My pup has nice prey drive. He is not a crazy prey monster like some but he has more than enough to do the work and still keep a clear head. Also, his prey drive was a little slow developing. We really started to see it come out nicely around 12 to 16 weeks. That may be normal, I am just comparing him to my female who was a prey nut out of the box.
> 
> I have also seen him get very serious about his bite work in the last week (about 7 months). He has become more combative and really gets off inflicting pain on the decoy.
> 
> Also


Hey Austin, 
Your pup was one of the best two pups in that litter from Boris X Maud. He had more prey drive than most of the Boris pups I've seen. His nerves and grip was also very good from the beginning which I see in most Boris offspring. Your pup is going to be very nice because he has the typical Boris grip and nerves with the addition of good prey drive. I liked yours from the beginning, at 4 weeks old I knew he was gonna be a good one!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> how do you use that website its all in dutch


Click on the English flag in the bottom right corner of the home page, that should make it easier for you to navigate.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i cant believe i never saw that! i guess i wont be getting much sleep tonight


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

I love these" what does so and so produce" threads. Good info, keepit coming! :grin:


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

mike suttle said:


> Hey Austin,
> Your pup was one of the best two pups in that litter from Boris X Maud. He had more prey drive than most of the Boris pups I've seen. His nerves and grip was also very good from the beginning which I see in most Boris offspring. Your pup is going to be very nice because he has the typical Boris grip and nerves with the addition of good prey drive. I liked yours from the beginning, at 4 weeks old I knew he was gonna be a good one!


Yes sir we are very happy with him.
I believe we took 4 male pups out to the school when I was at your place. Two Boris x Maud pups and two pups out of Ivo (I forget the bitch, maybe misty?). What impressed me most about the two Boris pups was their nerves. All 4 chased and bit as much as a 7 week old puppy can. However, the Boris pups were doing a 100 in a new place, slick floors, on chairs, stairs, and dark rooms ect.

I would have been happy with either I'm sure but I picked the one that was fat lol.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

7 months old, "gets off inflicting pain on the decoy"

Classic


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Drew Peirce said:


> 7 months old, "gets off inflicting pain on the decoy"
> 
> Classic



Ha.. I know.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm always interested in how you guys quantify prey drive. Any video of:

1) high prey drive or what is desired
2) average good prey drive that can do the work
3) low prey questionable as to ability to do the work

T


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Mladen Bezak said:


> I have son from Boris, I expected good working prospect, but I get just pet dog.
> Very low aport and hunt drive, very handler sensitive and average bite.
> Small size... slow mature, so just average dog.


 Did he have a really bad color as well? :-k


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> low prey drive for a malinois? how would you compare it to the prey drive of a good gsd?
> 
> what about the bitches did their lines produce low prey drive or higher?
> 
> ...


 you could go to his owners youtube channel and he has tons of videos of Boris offspring and see what some of them are like as well.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Borishollander


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Low drive is low drive, in my opinion a good GSD should have the drive of a good malinois.
> But I didn't say Boris produced low drive dogs, what I said was many of the Boris pups in my three litters had below average prey drive, but some had excellent prey drive.
> Boris is not a brother to Tyson.
> Boris is a son from Django, one of the best produces of high prey drive dogs that I've seen.
> Boris is an excellent dog and I have seen excellent dogs from him, but the litters that I had were average overall with very good grips and strong will to fight, also good nerves, but less prey drive than what I like.


Its interesting, Boris himself as a young dog had good drive but wasnt an extreme prey nutter like other dogs, but he grew into an extreme dog. Maybe they are better judged as older dogs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqX_ixh9UQw


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Did he have a really bad color as well? :-k


How old is the pup now? Be careful. Sometimes the slow maturing dogs turn out to be the BEST dogs. If you throw everything at him too soon, at once you may turn him off or he may develop in his own time. Be certain of what you're observing.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> How old is the pup now? Be careful. Sometimes the slow maturing dogs turn out to be the BEST dogs. If you throw everything at him too soon, at once you may turn him off or he may develop in his own time. Be certain of what you're observing.


That can absolutley be true. The saying I heard in Holland was "The trees that grow the slowest grow the strongest".


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## Mladen Bezak (Jan 15, 2011)

> Did he have a really bad color as well?


No, color is only thing that is ok. Because of close incest (father - daughter ) bad teeths also. 
On YouTube we can see only the good ones. It seems many of them are only average or even worst.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

chris how would u judge the prey drive out of ur rico?

from the videos on youtube ur boy produced good drive with the wibo bitch


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> chris how would u judge the prey drive out of ur rico?
> 
> from the videos on youtube ur boy produced good drive with the wibo bitch


 Rico pups drives are really good. The nerves on the pups are really soild, pups are all social and open. Just as I like. Boy has produced exceptional, and that bloodline of Arko to v Hoek dogs is a no brainer, it was a very good click. Boy is the equal in quality to the males I bought semen in from. Different in some ways, same in others.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Mike, has Arco produced the same aggression as Arko?

does he produce good nerves?
prey drive?
grip?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> Mike, has Arco produced the same aggression as Arko?
> 
> does he produce good nerves?
> prey drive?
> grip?


NO, thank God Arco does not produce the same aggression in his pups as my old Arko did. 
The prey drive is better from Arco pups than from Arko, both dogs produced super nerves and very nice grips, no difference there that I can tell.
I have 5 males from Arco bred to an Arko daughter that we will be keeping till they are adults, they are 6 months old now, one of them will likely be used for breeding here down the road, they are really that nice.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Here in our kennel without any doubt at all it was Arco Roosen. From what I have seen so far my Rudy (a Django son) is producing very well too, but time will tell if his pups are as good as the ones from Arco.


Mike. This is the Arco Aimee's dog is out of?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Mike. This is the Arco Aimee's dog is out of?


I'll answer for Mike because he's asleep on the couch ...again!

Yes, same Arco that Aimee's pup is out of.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'll answer for Mike because he's asleep on the couch ...again!
> 
> Yes, same Arco that Aimee's pup is out of.


 
She is a nice little dog. I don't like puppies but she is starting to grow on me. Aimee likes her which is the more important part


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I've seen in person and/or video of Arko pups/dogs from one combination. I was wondering if you could shed some light on the pups from this combination. One I know, has a not so great handler/trainer and so that could be part of the reason. The other I'm not so sure. His training looks good. OB is nice. Nerves on the dogs are good. Hard to correction when in drive, but seem pretty compliant when out of drive. Both grip/fight the decoy in much the same fashion from what I've seen and both live on "opposite ends of the Earth" if you will. If you watched biting video of the two males you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. Idk if they are litter mates, but they are from the same combo. I'm not sure how much different Joby Becker's dog's training has been. He has done a great job with her. He would have to answer for her bite training and grip work technique or training. What comes naturally to her and what he had to train or encourage. Encouraging some dogs and reinforcing the behaviour from a pup on to adulthood is helpful, but the character of the dog always shines through. Not so sure the other two I've seen had this kind of training and Idk if Joby's dog has had it either. Just an observation I'd made from what I'd seen.

Again, I've only seen three of them from the same dam. The rest of the litter could be phenomenal. Dogs/pups from combinations w/ other females are very much different, I'm sure. Training and upbringing play a part, and as in most breedings, who the male is paired with plays a big part. 

Do you have video of Arko pups or dogs from breedings done here in the US? Are there videos available from Arco pups/dogs from breedings here in the US? Don't think I've seen video or live work of any Arco Roosen dogs. What are they like?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i think chris's Boy is out of arko, i think he said his was pretty social, not 100% sure about that

but Arco over Arko sounds really good 

im assuming Wibo would produce high prey drive (or fight #-o) as well from the bitch they got here in australia and what shes produced so far

im assuming all the well known studs like wibo, tommy, jary, carlos produce high prey drive (consistently) ?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i think chris's Boy is out of arko, i think he said his was pretty social, not 100% sure about that
> 
> but Arco over Arko sounds really good
> 
> ...


Boy is social. He doesn't fear other people.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Zakia Days said:


> I've seen in person and/or video of Arko pups/dogs from one combination. I was wondering if you could shed some light on the pups from this combination. One I know, has a not so great handler/trainer and so that could be part of the reason. The other I'm not so sure. His training looks good. OB is nice. Nerves on the dogs are good. Hard to correction when in drive, but seem pretty compliant when out of drive. Both grip/fight the decoy in much the same fashion from what I've seen and both live on "opposite ends of the Earth" if you will. If you watched biting video of the two males you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. Idk if they are litter mates, but they are from the same combo. I'm not sure how much different Joby Becker's dog's training has been. He has done a great job with her. He would have to answer for her bite training and grip work technique or training. What comes naturally to her and what he had to train or encourage. Encouraging some dogs and reinforcing the behaviour from a pup on to adulthood is helpful, but the character of the dog always shines through. Not so sure the other two I've seen had this kind of training and Idk if Joby's dog has had it either. Just an observation I'd made from what I'd seen.
> 
> Again, I've only seen three of them from the same dam. The rest of the litter could be phenomenal. Dogs/pups from combinations w/ other females are very much different, I'm sure. Training and upbringing play a part, and as in most breedings, who the male is paired with plays a big part.
> 
> Do you have video of Arko pups or dogs from breedings done here in the US? Are there videos available from Arco pups/dogs from breedings here in the US? Don't think I've seen video or live work of any Arco Roosen dogs. What are they like?


Hey Zakia, I dont have may videos of our Arko pups, but there are some on our Youtube channel from a few years ago. I haven't seen many of the Arko pups that I have sold now that they are adults, but the ones that I have seen have all been very good biters. Of course it depends on the way they are trained for sure. I will say this, I'd have to go back and count how many Arko sons I kept and raised here to sell as adult police dogs, but there were many and all of them had excellent grips and hard attacks, they all had great nerves and agility. However many of them did not have the hunt drive that I prefer to be honest, and that is the biggest reason I stopped using him as much for breeding. 
You can also find a few videos of my Arco pups on youtube as well.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

to chris , i didnt mean i was doubting what u said, i just couldnt remember if that was what u said about boy or if it was another dog


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> I've seen in person and/or video of Arko pups/dogs from one combination. I was wondering if you could shed some light on the pups from this combination. One I know, has a not so great handler/trainer and so that could be part of the reason. The other I'm not so sure. His training looks good. OB is nice. Nerves on the dogs are good. Hard to correction when in drive, but seem pretty compliant when out of drive. Both grip/fight the decoy in much the same fashion from what I've seen and both live on "opposite ends of the Earth" if you will. If you watched biting video of the two males you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. Idk if they are litter mates, but they are from the same combo. I'm not sure how much different Joby Becker's dog's training has been. He has done a great job with her. He would have to answer for her bite training and grip work technique or training. What comes naturally to her and what he had to train or encourage. Encouraging some dogs and reinforcing the behaviour from a pup on to adulthood is helpful, but the character of the dog always shines through. Not so sure the other two I've seen had this kind of training and Idk if Joby's dog has had it either. Just an observation I'd made from what I'd seen.
> 
> Again, I've only seen three of them from the same dam. The rest of the litter could be phenomenal. Dogs/pups from combinations w/ other females are very much different, I'm sure. Training and upbringing play a part, and as in most breedings, who the male is paired with plays a big part.
> 
> Do you have video of Arko pups or dogs from breedings done here in the US? Are there videos available from Arco pups/dogs from breedings here in the US? Don't think I've seen video or live work of any Arco Roosen dogs. What are they like?


I can answer what you want, but dont really know what the question is.

I am pretty sure what I have done and did not do with my dog is probably different than what others have done or not done.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I can answer what you want, but dont really know what the question is.
> 
> I am pretty sure what I have done and did not do with my dog is probably different than what others have done or not done.


The two males I'd seen, I was not impressed w/ their biting. They are possibly littermates, idk. One I know for sure did not get good bite foundation as a pup. Not sure if as a pup his grip was full or not. (FYI, I'm basing this all on what I like to see in the biting. I prefer a "pusher"; one that likes to drive into the bite and punish. he/she is purposeful in their biting. I expected to see this in these lines. I'm looking for this always when watching dogs). Minimal pressure the dog does not look confident where he is. Handler did A LOT of "slip the sleeve, slip the sleeve" instead of building the dog while in the grip and he did not approve of the helper/decoy praising the dog for biting. I imagine this is why his biting looks the way it does. Idk anything about the other dog's bite training. Only that when I watch video of the dog he looks exactly like his brother. Again, if I didn't know better, I'd think it was the same dog. It could be those two only. I'm sure the rest of the litter in the right hands looks great. 

@ Mike. Did none of the Arko pairings w/ your females have the hunting drive you were looking for? I assume so, since you said you stopped using him. Did they have at least some, but just not the level you prefer? How was their possession? Where can I find video of Arco pups/adults training? Arco himself training or trialing?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Zakia Days said:


> @ Mike. Did none of the Arko pairings w/ your females have the hunting drive you were looking for? I assume so, since you said you stopped using him. Did they have at least some, but just not the level you prefer? How was their possession? Where can I find video of Arco pups/adults training? Arco himself training or trialing?


I have had some excellent hunters from my old Arko with several different females, but overall I did not get the type of hunt drive that I prefer with enough consistancy. However, I did get SUPER biters with every Arko pup that I kept back and trained myself.
The only video I have of Arco pups is on my youtube channel, Arco was at the 2011 KNPV Championships so I'm sure someone has some video of that soewhere, but I dont have it. There is one video of Arco on my youtube channel, and I think Jeff Gamber has some video of him working as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA13ZXpqrNI&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=2 video of an Arco litter at 6 weeks old.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnFZSYndHSo&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=3 video of Arco 

The interesting thing is that Arko had much more drive and intensity to hunt and retrieve than Arco. But the offspring from Arco seems to consistantly hunt much better than the offspring from Arko. Both dogs were super biters and always produced great biters as well, but I think that Arko produced better biters than Arco. This is of course assuing that the offspring were properly trained.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ Mike you said Arko produced the better biters
im sure you have bred from a lot of different studs and seen litters from many.
out of the well known studs such as rudy , tommy, wibo, jary , arko etc 
mainly considering dogs that are still alive , who would you consider to produce the best biters (with nerves) ?
feel free to mention any studs not listed above ofcourse , (malinois knpv studs included)


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ Mike you said Arko produced the better biters
> im sure you have bred from a lot of different studs and seen litters from many.
> out of the well known studs such as rudy , tommy, wibo, jary , arko etc
> mainly considering dogs that are still alive , who would you consider to produce the best biters (with nerves) ?
> feel free to mention any studs not listed above ofcourse , (malinois knpv studs included)


I have seen good biters from all of these dogs. From the 5 you listed here I think Rudy produced the best dogs for dual purpose work. Every young Rudy I ever saw was super social and had a lot of drive to work, and perhaps most important for police work they had super hunt drive.
I think Tommy, Arko, and Wibo produce tougher dogs, but not as complete for police work as what Rudy produced, because they had much less hunt drive. And from Tommy I have seen so many health issues that I don't even have him in my bloodlines anywhere. Jary also seems to produce very nice dual purpose dogs from what I have seen, but to be honest I have not seen as many offspring from him. 
I really like what Django produced even better than the dogs on your list here, I also liked Arco and Berry II better than the ones on your list for producing the most complete dogs for dual purpose work.

If your only goal was to produce the best biters with no regard to health or hunt drive then Tommy would be a good place to start. But for me there are so may other things besides biting that I look for.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

thanks mike , u always get to the point and answer the questions , very much appreciated

also if you dont mind, from that tommy, wibo and arko ( im assuming all produce great nerves)
from who have you personally seen producing the strong dominance , fight drive


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

also for dual purpose police work, your refering to hunt driving only as the difference between the dogs?

is django still alive :???: and producing


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## james mackey (Mar 28, 2009)

I have an Arko son and a Rudie son. I think that between the two, the shape of the head could have a bit to do with the power in the bite. My Akro son has a more massive and wider head with much more muscle about the jaw. The intent to bite is excellent in both, but the power of the bite is different.

Just an observation.

James


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

"I have had some excellent hunters from my old Arko with several different females, but overall I did not get the type of hunt drive that I prefer with enough consistancy. However, I did get SUPER biters with every Arko pup that I kept back and trained myself."

I was referring to your "old Arko" the entire time. I don't know of this new one. LOL. Thanks for the info. The hunt drive, had this guy known how to train better, would be tremendous on this dog. I liked him more and more as he matured. The dog has some scent work, but wasn't properly imprinted and trained for it. You can see, though, despite his handler that he has a great deal of potential. He needs to let us fix the biting and the sniffing, lol. Ah well. 

Thanks again for the response(s).


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