# Standard Poodles? Good LGD or alert sentries?



## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

As many of you probably can see from my profile, I have been looking at possibly getting a Caucasian Ovcharka but, thanks to the advice of the great people on this site and considering what I really need and what I really have to offer the dog, I'm thinking I need to move on with breed selection.

What I really need is a LGD and PPD/alert dog so, I am reconsidering my options. Most of my experience is with German Shepherds but, there have been a few Beagles and Boxers along the way with a stray or two.

I am considering a Standard Poodle as an "alert" dog and travel companion because the hotels I stay at won't allow a German Shepherd or similar *aggressive* breeds (their words, not mine).

First, do Standard Poodle WORKING lines exist in the USA? I do not want a show dog or a simple pet. I also need a dog that can stand up for itself if it encounters a unfriendly dog. I'm being realistic here and don't expect a Standard Poodle to fight off a seriously aggressive big dog but, they need enough fight to hold off a seriously bad dog while retreating to the safety of my firearm or home. I will not (ok, don't expect to) be doing any bite work but, obedience and alertness are very important and I would hope that they would do more than growl if someone broke in and got the jump on me.

I assume the Standard Poodle would pair well with a German Shepherd, Black Russian Terrier, or similar breed that would fill the Livestock Guardian role and general protection of the homestead roles on the my 40 acres in East Texas.

TIA,
Sid


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of my brothers has had a couple of Standard Poodles over the yrs and a good one can be a serious, badass dog. 

VERY trainable breed also.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

as you know, standard poodles that aren't show trimmed and fluffed still give off a friendly impression, even if they have some level of PPD training under their belt. not much visual deterrence factor

since that is ok for you, have you considered the breed that looks like a golden retriever ,,,,, but isn't ?
- it might be a better all purpose dog for the requirements you have listed so far

don't live in the states, but have trained with two standard poodles. they are popular in my area. seen 6-7. none are shown in the ring and were purchased for agility. if you have an interest in my training experience with them, i'd be glad to post about the two i worked with 

i would add this
i understand why people want to stay away from "show dogs" and why they consider them NON working dogs. that's easy to say
...however 
1. a well bred show line doesn't mean you need to show it in dog shows and never make it work for a living. 
2. on the PLUS side, it might mean a HEALTHY dog that a breeder has worked very hard on to eliminate genetic deficiencies in the line. 
3. if you then train it to work for a living.....you now have a healthy WORKING dog 

one of the BEST dogs i have seen being trained as a PPD since i have been a WDF member here was a SHOW line GSD ... believe the trainer's name was Jehane (?) from South Africa maybe ???

i see very little benefit in walking a dog around in circles but don't want to get into a show line vs working line argument. both sides are WELL dug in ](*,)

just sayin a WORKING dog is a dog who WORKS .... not always a breed unto itself

i've never heard anyone look at "show" vs "working" from this perspective, but i think it is worth considering for some types of owners looking for a good dog


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bob gave me some deja vous !!!!

as a young kid i was scared of dogs for awhile after i got bit pretty bad ... by a badass black standard poodle.....at least it was 'badass' at that time in my life....about 4th grade ....in those days we used different slang....we were playing and he "sicked" his dog on me but didn't think it would bite me //LOL//


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Used to farm sit for a man who had a standard poodle along with a couple of LGDs. Very intelligent, nice size, good home protection (this was the "inside" dog). Would bark, etc. but I'm not sure if the dog would have attacked me or not because this dog had no training that way and was well socialized to accept strangers. The only thing with poodles is you have to groom them or keep the coat short otherwise it will mat up. Don't know if you are interested in a dog that will have grooming issues. Once upon a time they were considered hunting dogs in France but I don't know how much of those instincts they retain. I would not consider them LGDs, not in the sense of going one-on-one with a predator. I see them more of barking to alert you versus going out to tackle the problem.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

as long as you dont desire the dog to actually fight with a man, I like standard poodles.

there was one down the street from me a few years back, it used to escape its house and come down and try to fight my 125 lb presa canarios...

it eventually came out and decided it was going to take on 2 male rottweilers, 2 male huskies, AND the guy that was handling them, and proceeded to get mauled.

I had a toy poodle for years, SHE THOUGHT she could take on anything...including a large male aggressive rottweiler..


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Should be great at alerting and staying with you and I hear they aren't wimps. I like smart dogs. Should be able to hold its own from at least a few snaps. I know you will look into the right breeder. The most popular breeders may not be the best. Saw a poodle forum, just called "the poodle forum". You may find a line on the larger side and a great breeder may be able to pick the most courageous but still biddable pup. Biddable is what the breed is already known for anyway. Like you considered, you still might want to add something with more strength later. There is a reason why the actual LGDs have been around likely longer than other types of dogs. Their big bodies and mouths protect them. Maybe the poodle would encourage another dog to stay around better, but maybe not as was mentioned earlier about two dogs ?? A breeder with acreage like you might know. You need a rural poodle breeder that may have experience with having a tougher dog breed too. No joke, there could be someone out there.&#55357;&#56842;
But yeah, many people will discourage two young dogs at the same time. With you on that for more than one reason.
Gina


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

When I suggested an Airedale I also had the standard Poodle in mind. The only problem is finding a good one.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

About the Coyote issue.

If there is only one it can be a serious mistake for most dogs to tangle with one.

With two or more in can be deadly.

A friend had a large Dalmation that used to chase coyotes until he went after three of them.

When the dog (fortunately) got back home he was tore to crap including having his nuts tore off.

From that point on the dog would just cower and shake like baby rattle when the coyotes howled.


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

rick smith said:


> as you know, standard poodles that aren't show trimmed and fluffed still give off a friendly impression, even if they have some level of PPD training under their belt. not much visual deterrence factor


This is an advantage to me with my young nieces and nephews, and the public at large. The lack of visual deterrence is an asset while traveling. My German Shepherd was super with the young ones but, where I traveled I could not take him with me. A disarming dog that will alert me to danger is better than no dog at all. The hair versus fur argument is also in the Poodles favor since I really can't tolerate dog or cat fur on a dress suit or in my pickup when traveling on business. A Poodle is higher maintenance with trimming and washing but, I did that with show cattle growing up so, it is a routine I am familiar with in the general sense. I'm sure the first few Poodle trimmings might be a little off but, practice, practice, practice and I bet I can get "good enough" pretty quickly. My Poodle would still 'love' me even if it got a bad haircut .... :roll:



rick smith said:


> since that is ok for you, have you considered the breed that looks like a golden retriever ,,,,, but isn't ?
> - it might be a better all purpose dog for the requirements you have listed so far


Shedding is an issue for me traveling for work. Some of the sporting and herding breeds would probably be okay for a travel companion but, the fact is that when I ask the hotel about a "pet Poodle" no one will raise an eyebrow. Could I get by with something else? Maybe, Probably, ??



rick smith said:


> don't live in the states, but have trained with two standard poodles. they are popular in my area. seen 6-7. none are shown in the ring and were purchased for agility. if you have an interest in my training experience with them, i'd be glad to post about the two i worked with


I would love to hear what you have to say about them. My only real experience is with the 'toy' Poodle my grandmother had and it wasn't a very good quality dog but, it did bring her great joy and companionship.



rick smith said:


> i would add this
> i understand why people want to stay away from "show dogs" and why they consider them NON working dogs. that's easy to say
> ...however
> 1. a well bred show line doesn't mean you need to show it in dog shows and never make it work for a living.
> ...


Unfortunately, Puppy Mills, Backyard breeders, and show obsessed people have really ruined the genetics for many breeds. My great grandfather had a pair of Cocker Spaniels that were awesome hunting dogs and hell on Rattlesnakes and Water Moccasins (got a few Rat snakes too). Here in the USA genetic problems can be an issue with many 'popular' breeds. A good working dog can be a good show dog, or whatever fits its personality. The same cannot be said for most 'show' dogs I have been around.



rick smith said:


> one of the BEST dogs i have seen being trained as a PPD since i have been a WDF member here was a SHOW line GSD ... believe the trainer's name was Jehane (?) from South Africa maybe ???


Good genetics and training will always shine through.



rick smith said:


> i see very little benefit in walking a dog around in circles but don't want to get into a show line vs working line argument. both sides are WELL dug in ](*,)


Different strokes for different folks.


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Sarah Platts said:


> Used to farm sit for a man who had a standard poodle along with a couple of LGDs. Very intelligent, nice size, good home protection (this was the "inside" dog). Would bark, etc. but I'm not sure if the dog would have attacked me or not because this dog had no training that way and was well socialized to accept strangers. The only thing with poodles is you have to groom them or keep the coat short otherwise it will mat up. Don't know if you are interested in a dog that will have grooming issues. Once upon a time they were considered hunting dogs in France but I don't know how much of those instincts they retain. I would not consider them LGDs, not in the sense of going one-on-one with a predator. I see them more of barking to alert you versus going out to tackle the problem.


Your assessment is more spot on than mine. Yes, it would be my "shadow" when I work, while at home, etc. I just want it to be durable enough to get to safety if something bad is happening while it is outside, not that I want a timid dog but, I also don't want it stand up to half dozen strays or coyotes either. If it alerts me with enough time to grab a firearm when inside, problem solved for the moment. If someone got the jump on me, general harassment would be helpful even if the Poodle didn't really do any serious bite work.


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Gina Mezin said:


> Should be great at alerting and staying with you and I hear they aren't wimps. I like smart dogs. Should be able to hold its own from at least a few snaps. I know you will look into the right breeder. The most popular breeders may not be the best. Saw a poodle forum, just called "the poodle forum". You may find a line on the larger side and a great breeder may be able to pick the most courageous but still biddable pup. Biddable is what the breed is already known for anyway. Like you considered, you still might want to add something with more strength later. There is a reason why the actual LGDs have been around likely longer than other types of dogs. Their big bodies and mouths protect them. Maybe the poodle would encourage another dog to stay around better, but maybe not as was mentioned earlier about two dogs ?? A breeder with acreage like you might know. You need a rural poodle breeder that may have experience with having a tougher dog breed too. No joke, there could be someone out there.��
> But yeah, many people will discourage two young dogs at the same time. With you on that for more than one reason.
> Gina


For a LGD, I would plan on getting one about halfway through the lifespan of the current one so they can run together and get lessons learned from the senior dog. And yes, two puppies at once is realistically too much for me at one time so, probably an 'inside' dog first and LGD a year or so later maybe unless I get fed up with the livestock losses and don't get enough eradication with traps and a thermal scope on a good rifle.

The LGD is a value and investment proposition for me in addition to all the other reasons I want a dog. I am suffering real financial losses due to coyotes, stray dogs, and feral hogs. Then there is Meth and Marijuana abusers to deal with as well.


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Howard Knauf said:


> When I suggested an Airedale I also had the standard Poodle in mind. The only problem is finding a good one.


That is true for most breeds!


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Bob Scott said:


> About the Coyote issue.
> 
> If there is only one it can be a serious mistake for most dogs to tangle with one.
> 
> ...


Yes a single domestic dog is no match for a pack of Coyotes or stray dogs. Some dogs get in over their heads with bluffing and then one day their bluff gets called when they miss the fact that things have changed.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Coyote packs have been known to send a lone bitch out to lure a domestic dog into an ambush. Damn things are smart. Hard to shoot when they're on the run too.


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Howard Knauf said:


> Damn things are smart. Hard to shoot when they're on the run too.


Yes, they are very smart. And, I'm getting to be a better shot on the juveniles on the run and yes, they are hard to hit. MK-262 out of a match rifle will put them down but, a 6.8SPC is a MUCH better choice IMHO.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Sid Post said:


> Yes, they are very smart. And, I'm getting to be a better shot on the juveniles on the run and yes, they are hard to hit. MK-262 out of a match rifle will put them down but, a 6.8SPC is a MUCH better choice IMHO.


Little derail, but why would you think the 6.8 is better suited for yotes than the mk262? That's a devastating round on much bigger...umm...targets...and as you said, puts them (coyotes) down. Dead is dead, be it from an air rifle or the mighty .50 BMG. I do dig the 6.8, btw.


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

The 90gr Federal Gold Dot flies faster, is heavier, and is bigger diameter. MK-262 is great for competition and DMR shooters on the battlefield but, having shot both the kinetic effects of the 6.8SPC are better at the ranges I shoot and whether 3/8ths MOA or 1~2MOA, at my ranges the accuracy difference is irrelevant. My friend who is a former military competition shooter and a solid shot did not put down any hogs with that rifle. My 6.8SPC is a different story. Plus, my rifle is heavy enough with a 2 pound optic on it, I don't need a heavy 20" barrel 5.56. I was a skeptic until I used one and now I'm a believer because it works better FOR ME. My 6.8SPC will take hogs or coyotes either one and is much easier for me to carry around so, it just plain works better for me in my hands. And yes, I have an SBR AR-15 but, I'm not using an 11.5" 5.56 on coyotes or hogs unless that is all I have left.

I moved on after a quartering away shot on a coyote that entered the rear hip and exited by the opposing front shoulder. While not the best shot in the world, that MK-262 was like an Ice Pick. A 6.8SPC would have had hydrostatic shock and expansion to put the coyote down humanely instead of hopping, twirling and, jumping, until it finally expired. This also gives me a round good for hogs which is the reason I am generally out there anyway.

Yes, a 5.56 will put down a hog, or coyote, or most anything if conditions are right. I need the extra margin to make sure they are DRT (Dead Right There) humanely with less suffering versus bleeding out over time from a straight thru-and-thru. I get boxes of Federal 90gr Gold Dots for less than half ($10) what the MK-262 costs so, when you shoot a lot of hogs and some coyotes, a better hunting round that is a lot cheaper is hard to argue against. If I was shooting someone elses MK-262 out of an M-16 in bursts, I might be swayed but in reality I would still want my upper on the that lower and Federal Gold Dots.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

That surprises me that the mk262 failed and went straight through. Never pleasant when that happens on any living thing. The 7.62 out of the 240 likes to do that as well.

Hogs are different all together. I have a buddy that bowhunts them, and using the same bow/arrow/broadhead that blazes right through elk, bear, moose, all it does is stick 1/4 to 1/2 way in the pig. Tough beasts. I plan to bowhunt them as well soon. With a slug gun at the ready.

Whats the availability of the 6.8 these days?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't know how much stock you have but most people don't have enough LGDs. They expect one or even two dogs to do it all when, in reality, you really should have 4 or 5. That way one is not getting worked to death trying to protect stock against a tag team of varmints. Somewhere there is a video floating around of a sheep flock where they had no less then 15 dogs. I'll see if I can find it and post it.


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Brian McQuain said:


> That surprises me that the mk262 failed and went straight through. Never pleasant when that happens on any living thing. The 7.62 out of the 240 likes to do that as well.


Yea, I was surprised that the 'yote didn't offer enough resistance to yaw or do anything else.



Brian McQuain said:


> Hogs are different all together. I have a buddy that bowhunts them, and using the same bow/arrow/broadhead that blazes right through elk, bear, moose, all it does is stick 1/4 to 1/2 way in the pig. Tough beasts. I plan to bowhunt them as well soon. With a slug gun at the ready.


I would want more than a shotgun personally. A big boar is a tough beast and super fast.



Brian McQuain said:


> Whats the availability of the 6.8 these days?


I can't get anything locally. When I go to Wal-Mart, selection is very limited so, I order online and have no problems getting what I want. Lately, I have been buying from Palmetto State Armory and SG Ammo is good too. PSA has Sellier & Bellot and Federal normally in stock for prices only slightly more than the best .223 prices. While many people will dismiss it as a specialty cartridge or near wildcat, the reality is that it is a good modern production round that works well in AR-15's and it ups the power for hunting and other uses with higher SAMMI pressures and modern bullets. While it is never going to be a 30-06, .308, 30-30, .223/5.56 in terms of popularity the simple fact is that I can find it easier than .270 Winchester, .260 Remington,30-30, and other "mainstream" cartridges.


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Sarah Platts said:


> I don't know how much stock you have but most people don't have enough LGDs. They expect one or even two dogs to do it all when, in reality, you really should have 4 or 5. That way one is not getting worked to death trying to protect stock against a tag team of varmints. Somewhere there is a video floating around of a sheep flock where they had no less then 15 dogs. I'll see if I can find it and post it.


We have had newborn calves killed and I have lost hundreds of chickens, ducks, and geese. I want to add some goats but, realize I might as well take a handful of 20's and through them in the fireplace on cold night if I don't get the predator problem solved.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Don't know how true it is but I've heard a Donkey or two are good predator security. They do eat more than dogs though.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

The LGD expert I mentioned before now runs a consult service. Like $30 or $40 for a half an hour. But she would know which breeds stay put, how many dogs people need to run. LGDnevada Cinco Deseos Ranch Anyway, thought I check to see if she offered free advice anymore. Nope. Just thought Id mention it again for when or if you are ready. No rush. Have a good one,

Gina


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Howard Knauf said:


> Don't know how true it is but I've heard a Donkey or two are good predator security. They do eat more than dogs though.


Yes, they do work pretty well. The problem is finding a good one that isn't a danger to people, especially males. Finding one nobody wants is easy, the reverse is the hard part.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Don't know how true it is but I've heard a Donkey or two are good predator security. They do eat more than dogs though.




Yeah, they're pretty nasty towards coyotes and dogs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of the farms I did earth work with my terriers had a donkey in the field with the sheep.

The farmer always warned us to "tuck our crazy little dogs under our coats when we crossed that field".

He wasn't kidding.

On one hunt we had a dig very close to the fence around the field.

Damn donkey was actually trying to roll under the fence to get to the terriers.

We gave up on that dig.:-o8-[ 

That noisy sob was actually crazier then our terriers. 

The farmer said the donkey did "tolerate" the Collie type farm dog.


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## Danielle Hunt (Jan 7, 2016)

Have you considered a Bouvier?


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Danielle Hunt said:


> Have you considered a Bouvier?


Yes, I have considered the Dutch and Belgian Shepherds over the years. They are good dogs and are a good alternative for what I am looking for. For a travel companion, I suspect I would have issues similar to what I have had with my GSD regarding hotels and my insurance carrier.

For a longer or double coated dog, a Black Russian Terrier is probably a better choice because people don't associate "Terrier" with attack dog or military working dog.


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## Danielle Hunt (Jan 7, 2016)

Sorry, I should've been more clear in the first post.... I'm not sure we're talking about the same breed- a Bouvier des Flandres? They're farm dogs from France. I doubt they're on the insurance company radar in the states as an _aggressive/attack_ military type breed. Am I wrong? From my experience, no one's ever heard of them. They're on my short-list for other breeds to venture into


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

You are not wrong about that. I wondered the same thing in his response. I took his response two ways. Either he was mistaken about what the breed was or was simply stating yes he had and also had considered the following breeds....


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

I don't think of them as French myself. I had the good fortune to spend some time in Europe and always thought of them as Belgian in the French speaking part of the country.

My insurance carrier has a lot of restrictions on dogs so, while I don't recall asking about that breed specifically it fits in the same "class" as the ones I did specifically ask about.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr Sid Post, assuming you end up with something other than a readily identifiable breed, just how, do you presume that your insurance carrier can counter your saying that the dog is say… a mutt?


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## Sid Post (Feb 27, 2016)

Nicole Stark said:


> Mr Sid Post, assuming you end up with something other than a readily identifiable breed, just how, do you presume that your insurance carrier can counter your saying that the dog is say… a mutt?


My insurance carrier has a clause specifying breeds by name that void the coverage. That is part of the reason for considering breeds that are rather obscure in North America like the BRT and various European & Asian Shepherds. They basically list all the breeds by name that have gotten bad press for fighting or being police or military working dogs. Mutts, toy breeds, herding, and sporting breeds are generally okay with a few rare exceptions due to some bad press at some point in time.


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