# can you train out drive?



## Jennifer Frank (Jul 14, 2007)

I have a 5 yr old Malinois foster female that came from a puppy mill. She came to me knowing absolutely nothing, except to protect herself and her area. She loves all people, kids, babies, and is very gentle. Calm inside the house. Will destroy a crate! She is now ok with all dogs, chases to kill cats and small wild animals, knows basic commands, attention heel, french ring style down, has very high ball drive. She bites a tug only for the fight, once the fight (motion/tug) stops, she outs.

This isn't exactly a dog that is easy to find a home for. She would be a great project dog, or maybe a family pet to an experienced home.

So my question is, is there any way to calm her down, lessen the drive to make her more adoptable? I figure it's worth a shot to ask... or should I try to find her more of a sport home?


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

You can't truly "train out" drive.
You can teach the dog to mask it, but it will manifest in other ways.

I'd shoot for sport home, but if a pet home was willing to jog/bike with her, or get into frisbee or something along those lines, the dog would have a lot of outlet for that drive, in a more "constructive" fasion.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Sounds like a keeper, lol


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lily, my "failed foster," was much the same way. Lots of drive and potential, never been into a house until I got her, bred too early, dumped by the puppy pimp because of nerve damage and he didn't want her limping around the puppy buyers, so he told the vet to kill her. :evil: Six months later, I fostered her and decided after about 7 months to keep her. :grin:

Are you fostering her through American Belgian Malinois Rescue? I'd say that most folks that want a Malinois, even one from rescue, would still be attracted to their energy and drive (though not all rescue Mals have a ton of it) as an active pet at least, if not a performance dog. If potential adopters don't want to deal with that, they should probably go adopt a beagle or something from the local shelter. There's plenty of them. She sounds like she'd be a fun club sport dog and it'd be neat to see if you can find a home for her that will really make her shine.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

It wouldn’t be fair to the dog to try to diminish its drive because its part of the dogs genetic make up…. Like punishing a kid for being hyperactive. You could try to physically correct it out of the dog but all you will end up with is mis-trust and confusion. And like Alyssa said.. you will just see it manifest itself in some other way… and I bet it would end up being a true “problem”.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> It wouldn’t be fair to the dog to try to diminish its drive because its part of the dogs genetic make up…. Like punishing a kid for being hyperactive. You could try to physically correct it out of the dog but all you will end up with is mis-trust and confusion. And like Alyssa said.. you will just see it manifest itself in some other way… and I bet it would end up being a true “problem”.


Couldn't have said it better myself. 

DFrost


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> It wouldn’t be fair to the dog to try to diminish its drive because its part of the dogs genetic make up…. Like punishing a kid for being hyperactive. You could try to physically correct it out of the dog but all you will end up with is mis-trust and confusion. And like Alyssa said.. you will just see it manifest itself in some other way… and I bet it would end up being a true “problem”.


Just get a prescription for doggie prozac. After all, that's what we do to hyperactive kids in public school :evil:. It's so much easier to drug em and label them with a syndrome rather than to channel the energy into something creative :twisted:.... sorry... pet peave.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't think it has much to do with "drive" as thin nerves creating a dog with a lot of needless energy. Good leadership and a sense of security can probably help the dog calm down a little, but of course that needs to transfer over to the new home too. A lot of exercises that don't excite the dog (i.e. not trial type obedience) should really help, stuff that she has to do for you and requires her to think and calm down a bit. Walk her through a kid's playground, let her try the various obstacles but absolutely do not lure her with her toys as that is detriment to the effect we want.

Anyway, that's the stuff that helps me with one of my really energetic dogs.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn, how did you come to the conclusion that this dog has "thin nerves" ? Just curious,


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jennifer,

When the tug stops, dog outs. Will it bite a second item that is presented? Will it switch biting between two items on cue (cue can be presentation of the item)?

Will the dog catch a frisbee in the air and return it to you?

With those two skills, a disc-dog home is a good chance. Your best luck there is to take video of the dog's skills and post to k9disc.com. The disc dog community embraces those high-drive rescue dogs.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

It's just a suggestion, Al.

But I do see way too many people think an energetic dog has "high drive", in the context that we use for working dogs. She mentioned the dog outs when the tug stops moving, which to me indicates the dog may simply have lower thresholds for prey. To me a truly high drive dog will want to keep the item even if it's dead. But maybe that is just my personal thing, and she does have good drive. Nevertheless...

What I do mean by my post is that the drive should not be the problem but the dog's nerves--the calmness factor. And exercises that get the dog thinking, rather than reacting ("I sat OOH ball!"), help tremendously with these kind of dogs. Save the ball only for special instances, and for obedience out of the trial field, do not use it as a reward or even let the dog smell it. Too much stimulation won't make the dog calm down. 

A dog like this is not necessarily bad, depending on your personal preference, because plenty of our working dogs described as having that 'edge' or are quick to blow up in defensive aggression also tend to have low thresholds. It does help to know what causes the problem you're trying to solve.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

"Lower threshold for prey" ??????? lol, prey drive is prey drive.The dog is a mal, a lot of them are drivey, makes training easier,

To the op, train the dog and somebody will be happy to take it! Active couple or someone like that, perfect for yuppie hikers or bike riders


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> "Lower threshold for prey" ??????? lol, prey drive is prey drive.The dog is a mal, a lot of them are drivey, makes training easier,


That's fine if you agree to disagree. I would prefer if you don't 'lol' what I've said, though. We all use different terms to describe dogs. For me, the threshold for prey is what differentiates a dog that is easily triggered into prey drive, BUT does not necessarily have that HIGH of a prey drive (i.e. gives up the item easily, gets tired after half an hour of play, and so on) and a dog that might look half-dead but once aroused with something he knows is 'prey', will go after it to death. It is an easier way of saying a certain dog "reacts more easily" = lower threshold. But that's fine if you don't want to see it that way.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Let's see if I can't make an ass of myself.

Why would a high prey drive dog automatically hold onto prey that isn't moving?
Dead prey isn't any fun to hold.
If it was, we wouldn't have to teach our dogs to carry.

Possessiveness, IMO, is a seperate trait.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Or possessiveness is simply a higher form of prey drive. 

We can mess things up a bit here. We know that herding instinct in our dogs is a form of prey drive. Would you mean to say that the sheep has to be moving for the dog to have an interest in them? But there is still an intense attraction towards the sheep, which keeps, say, boundary herding dogs focused for hours on end. 

It is not the hold I'm worried about (since it IS as you said a taught behaviour) but whether the dog still shows an intense attraction to the seemingly "dead" prey item. If not allowed to touch it, will he sit and stare at it hoping it moves eventually? In my experience dogs that continously relinquish a prey item without giving it a second thought, have good enough drives, but I would not consider it "high". 

Maybe it's all a matter of perspective. It's good to think about, though, if it doesn't mess up your training.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Well...
I've seen dogs that were possessive, that had no prey drive. So why wouldn't it follow that a dog can have prey drive, but no possessiveness? And that therefore, they are seperate traits.

I agree that a dog should show some continued interest in the prey item even after it stops moving.

But the OP simply said the dog outs, not that the dog wanders away and licks its butt.
If the dog hits the prey again the second it moves, then I'd say that the dog has high prey drive, in that, the first bite wasn't enough to satisfy the drive, so it was willing to bite again.

I'm always happy to discuss drives, and where each behavior originates... it's fun, since technically, we don't know who is right in the end, it's 90% theory and 10% guessing, LOL.


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## Jennifer Frank (Jul 14, 2007)

If I still had the money and time, I would love to do club sports with her. She would be so much fun, and even more fun to watch. But I just don't have the money anymore. She is a dream project dog... now if I could just find someone...


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## Jennifer Frank (Jul 14, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> Jennifer,
> 
> When the tug stops, dog outs. Will it bite a second item that is presented? Will it switch biting between two items on cue (cue can be presentation of the item)?
> 
> ...


I like the idea. She will catch a ball in the air, but can't figure out frisbees or sticks yet (except to steel them out of another dogs mouth, to walk a few steps and drop it). She will drop the ball to chase another ball, I have not tried that with a tug. Thank you for the info!


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## Jennifer Frank (Jul 14, 2007)

Lyn Chen said:


> It's just a suggestion, Al.
> 
> But I do see way too many people think an energetic dog has "high drive", in the context that we use for working dogs. She mentioned the dog outs when the tug stops moving, which to me indicates the dog may simply have lower thresholds for prey. To me a truly high drive dog will want to keep the item even if it's dead. But maybe that is just my personal thing, and she does have good drive. Nevertheless...
> 
> ...


Couple of thoughts and questions....
With the ball, she will fetch and bring the ball back all day. With the tug, when it stops moving she stands waiting for it to move again. But the times she has killed small wild animals, she dropped them before they were dead and walked away, didn't care that they were moving. I would think that she would bite again if the animal was still moving. 

I have used the ball for a reward in obedience with her to help her enjoy it. In order to calm her down,(not so excited, eager to please, nervousness behavior), I should use more of a praise and correction approach to obedience training? Rather than reward (food or toy)?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Well...
> I've seen dogs that were possessive, that had no prey drive. So why wouldn't it follow that a dog can have prey drive, but no possessiveness? And that therefore, they are seperate traits.
> 
> I agree that a dog should show some continued interest in the prey item even after it stops moving.
> ...


To make it a little bit more clear, I tend to view possessiveness not as a cause but as an effect, of various types of behaviour. Sort of like aggression. You can have defensive aggression, social aggression, etcetera. So I think you have to consider ALL aspects of a dog's behaviour (which is why I just said what I did in the beginning, not necessarily said the dog was low drive, only a different suggestion from what has already been given) in order to determine why. And from what I've seen and handled, when the dog has really high prey drive, there is always a degree of posessiveness in there. The hold with a very high prey drive dog is easy to teach...just knock the prey out of their mouth a couple of times and they hold on to it while giving you a dirty eye. 

Naturally a dog that is say, low prey drive, but has a degree of insecurity, can also express possessive behaviours. But if you've seen all types of dogs you can kinda tell the difference when it's right in front of you. 

I think we're actually agreeing more than we think we are, we just use different terms.  The theory is good for coming up with solutions to problems, or maybe for breeding to see what is in the dog that hasn't been covered by training, or for arguing with strangers online.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

:smile: 

And with that, we should probably give the OP her thread back, so hopefully this dog can find a new home.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jennifer Frank said:


> Couple of thoughts and questions....
> With the ball, she will fetch and bring the ball back all day. With the tug, when it stops moving she stands waiting for it to move again. But the times she has killed small wild animals, she dropped them before they were dead and walked away, didn't care that they were moving. I would think that she would bite again if the animal was still moving.
> 
> I have used the ball for a reward in obedience with her to help her enjoy it. In order to calm her down,(not so excited, eager to please, nervousness behavior), I should use more of a praise and correction approach to obedience training? Rather than reward (food or toy)?


Sorry by the way for putting your thread a bit off topic. 

My boy is very similar and an example, if I let him out of his kennel, he will be spinning in circles and yapping every which way and trying to nip me. I just face a wall and wait, even if it takes half an hour, for him to calm down. Well, he still wants to go out, so he eventually forces himself to sit (his tail will still be wiggling). While we still do a lot of obedience with his toys as reward (and he is quite an intense dog), I consider it more of a game than real obedience...something for him to look forward to. However, to kind of offset his hyper behaviour, at times I will just leave the food and tug at home and just take him to the playground to climb up ladders, walk across boards, or climb fences and so on. No corrections, but also no reward other than marking him "Good" and giving him a calm pat on the head. I let him figure a lot of things out on his own, but insist he finishes the exercises. 

The amazing thing is after an hour of playing ball or tug he will be tired but still be rearing to go; after 30 minutes of the less intense, but more 'thinking' activities, he is so calm that I can actually sit by a hill and we could watch kids and other dogs play ball in front of us, and he wouldn't even want to chase after them. He is still young, so I am hoping his behaviour improves as he gets older...I don't expect him to change overnight, but he is getting more manageable.

Now, I suggest you keep your foster, and not worry about rehoming her.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

a couple of thoughts- sounds like from your description- she has some "ring' training- now she is 5 years old?-did she not- cut it- for the sport, in the eyes of the previous owner? so they discarded her? unfortunately that is something I have seen a LOT over the years...

also curious, Lyn- do you have Mals ?

Finally, what about redirecting that energy- if not a "ring sport" or "protection sport" owner- maybe someone that is interested in agility, or flyball, frisbee etc. One of my mals, did great on bite work, as long as things were familiar, as soon as things changed, he was a bag of nerves- he also loves the ball- so now we are playing with the frisbee- he is loving it. 
good luck- she is lucky to have you fostering her for now. Mo


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Or detection.......what do you think DFrost \\/


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Matt Hammond said:


> Or detection.......what do you think DFrost \\/


That would be great for sure but she is 5 now? What is the length of a career for a detection dog? Would she be to long in the tooth for that?

To the OP .. What about getting the dog evaluated at the local SchH, PSA, or Ringsport club? To me she sounds like a great project dog for someone. She may not get to the top of sport but this is a dog that IMHO needs something to do and Sport is a great outlet. Even herding training if there is someone local.


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