# Hunter cont'd



## Anne Vaini

_Previous thread locked, assumed due to another poster? If mods think my questioning and updates are inappropriate, please PM me. While it's my nature to respond to offensive comments to refute them, I won't. They had little to nothing to do with the training I am doing NOW with Hunter and were not based in observation of the actual behaviors shown in video. I do appreciate a forum to get training ideas from a wide range of viewpoints - even those very different from mine. This individual dog isn't (yet) a working dog, but I posted here because we (working dog owners and trainers) come from a similar body of knowledge and experience. Butcher and flame me all you want, but take it to PM so the thread doesn't get locked. Thank you._

I logged in to post a change I noticed today. I used a ball today because it was already out. Usually Hunter would out the ball 5 - 6 feet in front of me. He does this for my fiance also. I didn't think anything of it. Hunter also would "freeze up" a bit if I happened to lean over him - like wiping off his wet paws at the door.

Today, he started bringing the ball to my hand or my feet. When I leaned down to pick up the ball he didn't freeze up - still wagging tail.

We made zero progress on obedience but I still got a big smile out of tonight. Realizing that he was relaxed in a position that he would have growled about last year felt like a big accomplishment. Baby steps.

Here's tonight's question: He understands my reward marker as "toy/treat coming". He hears "yes" and goes into drive looking for reward. But doesn't recognize it as a break of position or end of exercise. We did down position tonight. He would go into drive, lift his elbows up a bit, but wouldn't break out of the down. It has always been my thought that you can't teach a stay/duration behavior until the dog knows a release. But I've never worked with a dog that didn't end the behavior at the reward marker.

How do YOU teach your dog(s) to break after a behavior?


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Anne Vaini said:


> _Previous thread locked, assumed due to another poster? If mods think my questioning and updates are inappropriate, please PM me. While it's my nature to respond to offensive comments to refute them, I won't. They had little to nothing to do with the training I am doing NOW with Hunter and were not based in observation of the actual behaviors shown in video. I do appreciate a forum to get training ideas from a wide range of viewpoints - even those very different from mine. This individual dog isn't (yet) a working dog, but I posted here because we (working dog owners and trainers) come from a similar body of knowledge and experience. Butcher and flame me all you want, but take it to PM so the thread doesn't get locked. Thank you._
> 
> I logged in to post a change I noticed today. I used a ball today because it was already out. Usually Hunter would out the ball 5 - 6 feet in front of me. He does this for my fiance also. I didn't think anything of it. Hunter also would "freeze up" a bit if I happened to lean over him - like wiping off his wet paws at the door.
> 
> Today, he started bringing the ball to my hand or my feet. When I leaned down to pick up the ball he didn't freeze up - still wagging tail.
> 
> We made zero progress on obedience but I still got a big smile out of tonight. Realizing that he was relaxed in a position that he would have growled about last year felt like a big accomplishment. Baby steps.
> 
> Here's tonight's question: He understands my reward marker as "toy/treat coming". He hears "yes" and goes into drive looking for reward. But doesn't recognize it as a break of position or end of exercise. We did down position tonight. He would go into drive, lift his elbows up a bit, but wouldn't break out of the down. It has always been my thought that you can't teach a stay/duration behavior until the dog knows a release. But I've never worked with a dog that didn't end the behavior at the reward marker.
> 
> How do YOU teach your dog(s) to break after a behavior?


Make the reward move away from the dog as a cue to the dog that it is okay to move (split second after them mark). You may have to move your body, not just your hand. 

Also more fun (and for your dog less intimidating) to chase the food in your hand as you move it away. You could even throw the food (bounce off ground away from dog).

This is not something I made up of course. You could see this in the ME food vid.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

> Realizing that he was relaxed in a position that he would have growled about last year felt like a big accomplishment. Baby steps.


I didn't see the first thread Anne. Reading the statement above, I have to say my hat is off to you. I haven't got the patience for that. You say that the dog isn't a "working dog yet". Do you think he will be?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Annie, you have been on this forum for half a decade, worked with Ed and Cindy, and still are struggling. You can call it what you want, but with the results you are getting after all this time, I recommend softball.

You can think I am being mean, but give it up. I think a little softball this summer and some lap swimming would do you good. Check out the local leagues, and see if there is a community pool to swim in.


----------



## Thomas Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Annie, you have been on this forum for half a decade, worked with Ed and Cindy, and still are struggling. You can call it what you want, but with the results you are getting after all this time, I recommend softball.
> 
> You can think I am being mean, but give it up. I think a little softball this summer and some lap swimming would do you good. Check out the local leagues, and see if there is a community pool to swim in.


:lol:

your brutal


----------



## Thomas Jones

I don't even wanna know what you think about me


----------



## Anne Vaini

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Make the reward move away from the dog as a cue to the dog that it is okay to move (split second after them mark). You may have to move your body, not just your hand.
> 
> Also more fun (and for your dog less intimidating) to chase the food in your hand as you move it away. You could even throw the food (bounce off ground away from dog).
> 
> This is not something I made up of course. You could see this in the ME food vid.


Tried today. I was eating lunch outside and he was crawling under my legs and chair trying to get me to play ball. (Also a big smile, not something he used to do).

I asked him to down, released with "yes", threw the ball and he sits there twitching in anticipation, lol. My fiance will put him in a sit stay and WAIT while he throws the ball. Not everytime. Just enough to remind Hunter that stay means stay.

I was talking to Hunter and when I said "go" he took off after the ball. I am going to see if hanging my marker from "yes" to "go" is the easiest solution. Back to work. Very curious what I see tonight from Hunter.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Hunter connected the dots between what I was starting teaching the flip finish and what he had been trained before my fiance got him. We did 3 come to heel. Pretty. He understood and was all happy and proud of himself.

Did a sit, verbal mark/release, then throw food away and play. 3x. No change in the release, but built food drive and he offered a behavior.

He stayed engaged for petting/play (not food or toy) for a few minutes after I stopped the more formal training. He was off-leash. He chose to come with me. I was trying to learn what kinds of petting/touching he does and does not like.

I felt like I was training a dogs that wasn't mine, not like I was training a dog that disliked me. No obvious progress on obedience, but smiles anyway.

My fiance thinks he has been "holding a grudge", and approaching that way last year was completely unproductive. Your responses to my video pointed out my handling. I agree with the comments about being overwhelming and unpredictable. And those about inconsistency -- which was beyond bad.

I'll keep going slowly with foundation training. Trying to be conscious of myself and be as consistent / predictable as possible. I'll post back if I see big improvement or setback. Training him towards AKC novice as a goal. Maybe find a job or some work or him.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Got a growl!

I got home, got out of the car and Hunter came running to greet me. He didn't used to do that, so big smiles from me. I petted him, said hello. Then MY dog came over and trying to get in for attention. Hunter growled. At me. I sent my dog away and finished petting Hunter. He was back to relaxed and happy to be pet.

Other than that, nothing eventful to report. He's QUICK on training as soon as he understands. He is far more physically soft than my dog so it's been an adjustment. He is responsive to me in heel / heel position. Yields to leash pressure easily. I like being able to use a very light touch - and he needs that.

Thoughts on the growl? Should I have corrected? I thought my dog was being a PITA, so I just sent her away and ignored Hunter's growl.


----------



## leslie cassian

Why do you say he was growling 'at you'? 

He's getting pets and your dog jams herself in there and he asserts himself a wee bit and growls. Is that not just normal dog communication? Sounds like what goes on here all the time. I would ignore it. You're trying to build a relationship with him, why would you want to start hammering him now?


----------



## Anne Vaini

I wrote "at me" because he didn't turn his head to her. He kept looking at / facing me. I thought it was a little odd.


----------



## leslie cassian

He's probably not confident enough in himself to face her down and turn to growl directly at her. It's just communication, it's not necessarily something that needs to be punished.

I would ignore it.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Good grief. Enough already.


----------



## maggie fraser

Anne Vaini said:


> I wrote "at me" because he didn't turn his head to her. He kept looking at / facing me. I thought it was a little odd.


Could he have been looking straight ahead and you were in his line of vision when this growl took place ?

Forget the growling Anne, if he bites you, you will understand a little better, and if he doesn't, well....there was nuthin to get all concerned about in the first place.


----------



## Bob Scott

My older GSD will growl at the younger one ocasionaly and he has no need to look at the younger dog. The younger dog "gets it". 
I doubt the dog was growling at you as much as telling the other dog to ****off.


----------



## Sara Waters

Good luck with your training but I find many aspects of all this perplexing. Dogs holding grudges and all that. huh? Your dog being a PITA? My feeling is that you really have to go back and learn how to read dogs


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Sara Waters said:


> Good luck with your training but I find many aspects of all this perplexing. Dogs holding grudges and all that. huh? Your dog being a PITA? *My feeling is that you really have to go back and learn how to read dogs*


 
Anne my feeling is you really have to go back and learn how to read - *what everyone here is trying to tell you.*


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Good grief. Enough already.


You may not believe this but I always think:

"in vino veritas"

In other words, Jeff, you always hit the nail on the head.

Anne:

You have to be able to read a dog before you can "work" with it. You cannot even describe the dog's action to us if you cannot read it yourself. It's absolutely impossible.


----------



## Anne Vaini

What do you mean when you say "read a dog"? If you mean predicting the dog's behavior based on its current behavior, I got that down. None of Hunter's behavior is a surprise, I can predict it based on the body language leading up to it. But I don't know what was setting him off. I could be wierd "resentment" behavior which doesn't make a whole lot of sense on the training end of things, but it sure looks that way sometimes. It could be aggression towards another dog, misdirected/misinterpreted. It could be overwhelmed/stressed by my "forward" or "unpredictable" handling/training style. I'm going with the last one since simply spending time training and interacting with him has changed his behavior "quite a bit". As in I see big progress in his body language that no one else would notice.

I screwed up in training a couple days ago. We have invisible fence. And I didn't know Hunter was wearing the collar - his long hair covers it pretty well. We were doing heeling in the driveway. Luring for correct head position. ... Do you see where this is going? Yeah. He got zapped. #-oGod I am stupid sometimes, lol. So I had to go back and start over at driving into my hand (thanks leslie!), luring going towards the house, today got luring down the driveway. He was hestitant as we got toward the fence line. He was performing the behavior, but I could see his eyes looking, a little more agitation and not in a good way. I did not press him to go to the fence line. One of "my dogs" I would have at it as a training distraction. But different goals with Hunter - to have fun and get him less stressed out around me by basically getting to know each other. Once we get there. Really get there. Maybe we'll get into AKC OB or find a job for him. We'll see.

Current agenda: continue in introducing toy drop from armpit. Continue luring at the heel position for correct head postition. Teach stand. Start change of positions or stand for exam.

Little bits of progress: Hunter will now put his paws up on me for petting. This is a big deal. IF he would do it before (beginning working with him), he would be growling, hackled, back legs shaking. Today he was totally relaxed, wagging tail. That was a REALLY BIG smile. I was less worried about the growl than his back legs shaking. That worried me. I didn't do it again (for months) until I not-thinking asked for him to come up for petting in training a couple days ago. Didn't want to push anything, but patted my chest to invite him up today and he did! Big smiles.

Change of topic:

Would you do anything to remove his stress of when my dog is nearby? They play together awesomely, fetching, tugging, chasing, keep-away, dock diving, etc. No issues if one is nearby the other at food time. But the issue if I'm praising/petting/rewarding Hunter and my dog comes over.

Which dog would you train first? My dog for getting her butt in the way? But how would she know that she's not welcome? As in, teach her to stay away -- not wait for her to come over, cause stress, and then send her away, which causes more stress since Hunter does not like my firm verbal correction voice.

Or do you train Hunter to somehow demonstrate that her presence does not mean loss of reward or training/play time?

Or do nothing? I want to do something since this is about making Hunter happy/relaxed.


----------



## Joby Becker

Anne Vaini said:


> What do you mean when you say "read a dog"? If you mean predicting the dog's behavior based on its current behavior, I got that down. None of Hunter's behavior is a surprise, I can predict it based on the body language leading up to it. But I don't know what was setting him off. I could be wierd "resentment" behavior which doesn't make a whole lot of sense on the training end of things, but it sure looks that way sometimes. It could be aggression towards another dog, misdirected/misinterpreted. It could be overwhelmed/stressed by my "forward" or "unpredictable" handling/training style. I'm going with the last one since simply spending time training and interacting with him has changed his behavior "quite a bit". As in I see big progress in his body language that no one else would notice.
> 
> I screwed up in training a couple days ago. We have invisible fence. And I didn't know Hunter was wearing the collar - his long hair covers it pretty well. We were doing heeling in the driveway. Luring for correct head position. ... Do you see where this is going? Yeah. He got zapped. #-oGod I am stupid sometimes, lol. So I had to go back and start over at driving into my hand (thanks leslie!), luring going towards the house, today got luring down the driveway. He was hestitant as we got toward the fence line. He was performing the behavior, but I could see his eyes looking, a little more agitation and not in a good way. I did not press him to go to the fence line. One of "my dogs" I would have at it as a training distraction. But different goals with Hunter - to have fun and get him less stressed out around me by basically getting to know each other. Once we get there. Really get there. Maybe we'll get into AKC OB or find a job for him. We'll see.
> 
> Current agenda: continue in introducing toy drop from armpit. Continue luring at the heel position for correct head postition. Teach stand. Start change of positions or stand for exam.
> 
> Little bits of progress: Hunter will now put his paws up on me for petting. This is a big deal. IF he would do it before (beginning working with him), he would be growling, hackled, back legs shaking. Today he was totally relaxed, wagging tail. That was a REALLY BIG smile. I was less worried about the growl than his back legs shaking. That worried me. I didn't do it again (for months) until I not-thinking asked for him to come up for petting in training a couple days ago. Didn't want to push anything, but patted my chest to invite him up today and he did! Big smiles.
> 
> Change of topic:
> 
> Would you do anything to remove his stress of when my dog is nearby? They play together awesomely, fetching, tugging, chasing, keep-away, dock diving, etc. No issues if one is nearby the other at food time. But the issue if I'm praising/petting/rewarding Hunter and my dog comes over.
> 
> Which dog would you train first? My dog for getting her butt in the way? But how would she know that she's not welcome? As in, teach her to stay away -- not wait for her to come over, cause stress, and then send her away, which causes more stress since Hunter does not like my firm verbal correction voice.
> 
> Or do you train Hunter to somehow demonstrate that her presence does not mean loss of reward or training/play time?
> 
> Or do nothing? I want to do something since this is about making Hunter happy/relaxed.


Anne if the other one is your service dog, one...I do not think you should do anything to try to correct what you might think is wrong with your service dog, based on what is going on between the two dogs.... I think you should leave that one alone, it has enough to deal with, just being your service dog, without any additional expectations..and that alone cannot be easy for the dog.

I would say to keep that one (service animal) away from the other dog you are trying to work with...while you are trying to train it for whatever.

you should not teach the dogs anything, just keep one inside, or otherwise contained while training.

that is my advice...


----------



## Sara Waters

Anne I think Joby is probably right for the moment for your situation and you as a trainer. 

It think it is probably not just about reading dogs, it is about understanding the dynamics and the bigger picture and putting it in context. I think there has been confusion, misinterpretation, lack of clear boundaries for awhile now. Your own dog has probably always run to greet you and now she has become a PITA for doing what she has always done because you are focussing on Hunter. I am not sure what you are doing with your service dog or if you are now simply doing nothing with her.

You have had a difficult relationship with Hunter in the past which havent adressed in the past but you are now working on becuase you were picking on your service dog. I think maybe you become hyper focussed on the moment and the dog of the moment and miss the bigger picture of what is going on around you. I think you need to relax more and have some fun with your dogs.

It is hard to say. I train 6 dogs and have not come across the problems you are having. I try and keep my eye on the big picture as well as each individual dog. I work my way through laying the foundations for each dog as an individual and as a domestic dynamic. I do a couple of group walks a day and work on my relationship with the dogs as a group. Hard to explain really.


----------



## Bob Scott

If you have two or more dogs you need to be able to control all of them together if you expect to train one. 
Look at some of the video Al has posted. He has a yard full of dogs while he trains one but none really interrupt the other over praise or reward. 
You need to put up any dogs your not working with if any try and interrupt training/praise/reward. 
Those of us who work with more then one at a time, myself, kadi, Al and a few others can avoid these interuptions coming because we can "read" our dogs. 
Stop it before it happens!


----------



## leslie cassian

_I screwed up in training a couple days ago. We have invisible fence. And I didn't know Hunter was wearing the collar - his long hair covers it pretty well. We were doing heeling in the driveway. Luring for correct head position. ... Do you see where this is going? Yeah. He got zapped. God I am stupid sometimes, lol. So I had to go back and start over at driving into my hand (thanks leslie!), luring going towards the house, today got luring down the driveway. He was hestitant as we got toward the fence line. He was performing the behavior, but I could see his eyes looking, a little more agitation and not in a good way. I did not press him to go to the fence line. One of "my dogs" I would have at it as a training distraction_

You are messing with his head and he can't deal with it.

Stop messing with his invisible fence collar training... why would you try to lure him to somewhere he knows he may be punished? Because he's supposed to figure out that sometimes it's ok to go there and sometimes he's going to get fried for it? One more level of stress that he doesn't need.

If you are bound and determined to 'train' this dog, stop changing the rules on him. You crash landed into his life and created huge change in his world. He may not be the most resilient dog in the world. Stop expecting him to just suck it up and deal with all you have thrown at him. Have some compassion. He's a living being, not a science experiment.

Yes, put your other dog away when you are training Hunter. Why do you even need to ask? You see it stresses him out and interferes with what you're trying to accomplish when you send her away. It's not productive for either dog. Let them hang out and be dogs together when you're not working. 

Maybe one day I will have the skills, but right now, I can't train both of my dogs together. I do some fun cookie obedience with both, but if I'm working with one dog, the other dog gets put away so I can focus.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Lame video of the day, lol  The first 30 seconds are me screwing around, dropping the reward toy and being generally clumsy - off camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T8jZCstv4A

Watching it I see I should have interacted toy-less first, then played, then put in the OB commands. I screwed up at 2:03. He growled when my hand went onto his chest. Can't blame him - probably felt like a headlock to him. One of the times I touched him with my toe he startled/growled. My bad - I do this all the time with my dog but don't think I done it with Hunter before. Then he's growling, shaking the toy "killing" it. No worries on that.

I *think* it looks like relaxed playing around with a dog with a few OB mixed in.

Compared to video posted about 2 weeks ago, you can definitely see improvement in the come-to-heel position. (Yay!). Trying to be less forward, less goal-oriented. More play, less work. Using a toy instead of food helps ME be less goal oriented and not too fussy.


----------



## Anne Vaini

leslie cassian said:


> Stop messing with his invisible fence collar training... why would you try to lure him to somewhere he knows he may be punished? Because he's supposed to figure out that sometimes it's ok to go there and sometimes he's going to get fried for it? One more level of stress that he doesn't need.


He was on a leash. He knows that when he is on a leash he can cross the fence line *on the driveway*. It was MY mistake to not check if his fence collar was on - we rarely use the collars. Because I knew it was my mistake I didn't pressure him to "get back on the horse". I played around later to see what the damage was, then fixed it. I haven't trained in the fence line area. Waiting for his enthusiasm and focus on reward to be very high (in heeling) so he crosses the line without thinking. Then reward. ThenAnd forget about it. No matter how far I take his training, I won't be needing competition heeling at that spot on the driveway.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Leslie is right, IMO. That invisible fence thing was a big mistake and I think you have to suck it up and not put any of it at all on the dog. 

Quote: "Stop messing with his invisible fence collar training... why would you try to lure him to somewhere he knows he may be punished? Because he's supposed to figure out that sometimes it's ok to go there and sometimes he's going to get fried for it? One more level of stress that he doesn't need."
_
"He was on a leash. He knows that when he is on a leash he can cross the fence line *on the driveway*."_

No. No, he doesn't. The dog "knows" that complex set of conditions, and he knows it even after the screw-up? No.


----------



## Anne Vaini

:suckingitup:

Noted something today. Hunter has this big greeting ritual. I noticed when my fiance came home today that he hackles in his normal, happy, greeting ritual. Perhaps I too closely relate hackles to discomfort/conflict/aggression?

Off to go play with a fuzzy blonde mutt. O


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Anne Vaini said:


> :suckingitup:
> 
> Noted something today. Hunter has this big greeting ritual. I noticed when my fiance came home today that he hackles in his normal, happy, greeting ritual. Perhaps I too closely relate hackles to discomfort/conflict/aggression?
> 
> Off to go play with a fuzzy blonde mutt. O



Hackling (piloerection) can mean just excitement.
_
"Off to go play with a fuzzy blonde mutt. "_


----------



## Anne Vaini

Hey! He did the greeting behavior for me. With growling. The wierd happy growl with a waggly tail and a doggie smile. Not the stiff body, shaking leg, eye rolling growl I was getting so much last year and getting occassionally when I started the most recent threads - what, 3 weeks ago? 

If Hunter starts baying and howling for me on a greeting ritual, I'll know I'm home free.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I am so glad you are enabling Annie to keep torturing the dogs. The invisible fence post........ priceless.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You are not making this better, and she should be out playing softball, or swimming laps. 

All your "advice" is just making things worse for those dogs. You do understand how mental illness works.............................. Oh wait, obviously you do not.

Annie is a good person. She should be encouraged to go back to her chalk art or something. Just not dog training. You think I am being mean, but you are just being stupid.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am so glad you are enabling Annie to keep torturing the dogs. The invisible fence post........ priceless.
> 
> You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You are not making this better, and she should be out playing softball, or swimming laps.
> 
> All your "advice" is just making things worse for those dogs. You do understand how mental illness works.............................. Oh wait, obviously you do not.
> 
> Annie is a good person. She should be encouraged to go back to her chalk art or something. Just not dog training. You think I am being mean, but you are just being stupid.


AMEN

This is getting to the point where Anne should be analysed, and not the dog. This is sick, realy sick!!

What are you all thinking about?


----------



## Sara Waters

Gillian Schuler said:


> AMEN
> 
> This is getting to the point where Anne should be analysed, and not the dog. This is sick, realy sick!!
> 
> What are you all thinking about?


I think many of the posts are trying to point this out but Anne seems to ignore them all and keeps persisting.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Let's review some situations we've discussed in the last 13 months:

Growls at me when I get out treats. _Resolved over time._
Shut down when I give command. _ Resolved over time._
Growls when I direct, command, or lead him to a different room, through a door, or down a hall. _Resolved as he learned my hand signals._
Growls when I vacuum. _Resolved when I could send him to another room with hand signals._
Growls when I tell him to get off of the couch. _ Resolved over time and with giving him his own bed - the dogs competed over one bed previously._
Growls when I go to bed late. _Resolved over time as he learned where I walk and lies down out of the way._
Growls when I talk to my dog (named "Dog") out of confusion because my fiance calls Hunter "dog". _Resolved when I swapped dogs._
Stress over having a pushy puppy, dog-dog aggressive bitch, and dominant male dog. _Resolved by changing dogs to a single not-dominant, not-pushy, adult spayed female._
Growls when I invite him up onto the couch. _Resolved over time and by not inviting him up on the couch. He will hop up on his own now, even when I'm on the couch._
Growls when I touch him in praise (in training). _Resolved by backing off touching in training, playing/training with him over 3 weeks so he gets used to me/my training, and trying to find how he does and does not like to be pet/touched. _
Y'all told me to:

Stop correcting. Ignore growling. _Done._
Back off and leave him alone. _Done - for a year!_
Change the dog-dog pack dynamic. _Done! I rehomed the dogs I had and have my female that does not challenge or pressure him._
Just play with him. _Done (and continuing)._
Train, but back off in training. _Done._
Play, but change body language to not be so "forward". _Done and trying to keep working on it._
Back off in training (again) and go back to play. _Done._
I have been reading. I have been taking your advice. I have been making changes. 

And... I'm starting to see results. Little changes in behavior that seem like huge milestones. If I was being so terribly, horribly abusive, then spending more time with him would not improve his attitude. No?

Right NOW, we're doing OK on the "hating" part. Now trying to figure out the training part. Trying to figure out a job for him to do. Maybe carting? Maybe some of the service dog tasks? (He has always intiated play. If I cry he grabs a toy and drops it on me.  ) Maybe some tracking? Or searching for sheds? Cleaning up a driving range? 

He's a damn good alert dog. My son can play alone in the yard when Hunter is out there. NOBODY - not even friends and neighbors - can get near the yard without a huge barking commotion.


----------



## maggie fraser

Jeff made a really poignant post Anne....you could do worse than give it some thought. jmo


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Anne Vaini said:


> Blah blah blah blah blah
> 
> 
> Trying to figure out a job for him to do. Maybe carting? Maybe some of the service dog tasks? (He has always intiated play. If I cry he grabs a toy and drops it on me.  ) Maybe some tracking? Or searching for sheds? Cleaning up a driving range?
> 
> more blah blah blah


Geez Anne
The dog doesn't need a job. Leave the dam dog alone.
How many people have to tell you "You're NO dog trainer"
Seems like you're trying to prove something and all you're doing is ruining a nice pet by trying to "train" him to do some
meaningless sport. You're a great artist but you SUCK as a 
dog trainer.


----------



## leslie cassian

Give him the same job most other Goldens have. Cookie-eater, ball-chaser, couch-warmer, walking partner and companion dog. Seems he's chosen baby-sitter and alert dog by himself. 

Play, train, have fun, but why does he need to be anything other than what he already is?


----------



## Anne Vaini

No real answer for your Leslie. It's my belief that a dog with a job is happier. Which is loosely based off of some scattered studies on wolf hybrids, fearful, and neurotic dogs. The general observation was that these dogs did just fine when working or hard exercise, but fell apart in between. There's the pet training of "give the dog a job", but he's not a problem dog. Then there's my personal bias towards having animals that earn their keep. 

Any basis to my thinking? 

He's got the big retriever toy drive. He's no mali, but seems like a shame to waste some nice ball / toy / hunt drive.


----------



## maggie fraser

Complete denial/deflection. Remember what Jeff inferred ?

Anne, shut your trap and grow some character, or come and join us in the canine lounge :-D.


----------



## leslie cassian

My Mali has tons of drive. Show him a toy and his head explodes. I thought he would suffer when I stopped formal schutzhund training with him this year, but he seems quite happy just to tag along with the DS, chase his ball in the morning and lay around the house all day. 

I do a bit of obedience with him because he is a retard and thinks that's fun. I tried dock diving last week because I thought that would be fun for both the dogs and me, though that is not a job, it's just another way to tire them out that they seem to enjoy.

Is Hunter falling apart because he doesn't have a 'real job'? 

He's earning his keep by keeping your son company in the yard and alerting you to anything going on. Put a price on that. Companion animal is as good a job as any. 

How old is Hunter?


----------



## maggie fraser

"Is Hunter falling apart because he doesn't have a 'real job'? "

He's falling apart because Anne came to stay is my guess. Anne takes up much more space than he does, bullies him, torments him, poisons his owner, and is determined to not let it go because she is so self centred and occupied, and requires an obsessive focus of which Hunter is it.

Someone rescue that dog please.

Stop responding to her, much better to invite her for an informal chat and a laugh.


----------



## leslie cassian

OK Maggie. 

For a change of pace and completely unrelated to anything to do with dogs

One of my favourite artists...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orNpH6iyokI


----------



## maggie fraser

leslie cassian said:


> OK Maggie.
> 
> For a change of pace and completely unrelated to anything to do with dogs
> 
> One of my favourite artists...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orNpH6iyokI


Oh hey, that is cool. But get a load of this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra2Qndv_xeE


----------



## maggie fraser

Hey Anne, what did you think about my Robert Cray track ? That stuff gets me right through to the soles of my feet.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

leslie cassian said:


> OK Maggie.
> 
> For a change of pace and completely unrelated to anything to do with dogs
> 
> One of my favourite artists...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orNpH6iyokI


leslie

Does HE train dogs too? ;-)


----------



## maggie fraser

leslie cassian said:


> OK Maggie.
> 
> For a change of pace and completely unrelated to anything to do with dogs
> 
> One of my favourite artists...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orNpH6iyokI


Hey Leslie, I reckon you and I could be good friends. Have you kicked out the male yet ? I am very close .


----------



## Doug Zaga

leslie cassian said:


> OK Maggie.
> 
> For a change of pace and completely unrelated to anything to do with dogs
> 
> One of my favourite artists...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orNpH6iyokI


I think this may be for Maggie :razz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hglVqACd1C8


----------



## maggie fraser

Doug Zaga said:


> I think this may be for Maggie :razz:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hglVqACd1C8


You're really quite naughty toward me Doug, but I'll go with it for now. I quite liked that track but it was also a kinda run of the mill music track.

Try listening to this, it's more for folks who appreciate good composition and probably who are more musically inclined....no visuals, just get yourself a good sound on it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqCBnLO_jqk


----------



## leslie cassian

maggie fraser said:


> Hey Leslie, I reckon you and I could be good friends. Have you kicked out the male yet ? I am very close .


There is no male to kick out, aside from the four legged ones, and they are good. Not a testicle among them.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Well Maggy May ...it was the lyrics...the lyrics! Very Nice...reminds me of Steely Dan.

Well, give this a listen no visual and I would disagree with run of the mill [-X ..listen and see if you can understand what Maynard is singing... could be part of this topic :-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-0rLI6-skQ


----------



## maggie fraser

leslie cassian said:


> There is no male to kick out, aside from the four legged ones, and they are good. Not a testicle among them.


Ah, you have it all sorted.


----------



## leslie cassian

If your male won't go, you could always suggest that option to him. :twisted:


----------



## maggie fraser

Lyrics are one thing, I like the music that talks to me, not words. Music isn't about words. We're going into a darker realm here, but listen out for the mouth organ solo lead in by the drums. No visuals, just get a sound on it and in it's entirety....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAlLQaDXc4I


----------



## Doug Zaga

Of course the music leads the soul but the lyrics talk to the soul 

That now reminds me more of the 80's English popsynthesizer stuff Duran Duran?

Now if you want to hear some organ and drums 

What makes this song is Page and Bonzo feeding off each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlkU-dhKMBA


----------



## maggie fraser

Doug Zaga said:


> Of course the music leads the soul but the lyrics talk to the soul
> 
> That now reminds me more of the 80's English popsynthesizer stuff Duran Duran?
> 
> Now if you want to hear some organ and drums
> 
> What makes this song is Page and Bonzo feeding off each other.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlkU-dhKMBA


I hated Duran Duran bubblegum, these guys were way ahead of their time and no-one did anything like what they did. They were proper musicians, I haven't heard anything like it, even the imposter copy cat crap didn't come anywhere close.

And besides, I was a Led Zep fan too, went and saw them live at outdoor festival at Gnebworth, I'm not gonna tell you when, but all the original band members were alive and kicking and performing at that concert ;-).

I got into music when I was young, had myself a pretty serious lung disease when I was eight, all I did was listen and groove to the music on the radio whilst bed ridden for weeks....and weeks.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Oh gawd. You guys in the canine lounge scared me away years ago.  :lol: Blame Jeff. :-\"


----------



## Anne Vaini

leslie cassian said:


> How old is Hunter?


 He's 5. And not falling apart without a job.


----------



## maggie fraser

Anne Vaini said:


> Oh gawd. You guys in the canine lounge scared me away years ago.  :lol: Blame Jeff. :-\"


That was pretty cool Anne :lol:, you can always tell when Jeff's on a dry stretch, Know what I mean ? ;-) (women talk) Lol


----------



## Doug Zaga

maggie fraser said:


> And besides, I was a Led Zep fan too, went and saw them live at outdoor festival at Gnebworth, I'm not gonna tell you when, but all the original band members were alive and kicking and performing at that concert ;-).
> 
> I got into music when I was young, had myself a pretty serious lung disease when I was eight, all I did was listen and groove to the music on the radio whilst bed ridden for weeks....and weeks.


1975... 

Maggie grooving it out ..go girl


----------



## maggie fraser

Doug Zaga said:


> 1975...
> 
> Maggie grooving it out ..go girl


Actually no, 1978 maybe 79


----------



## Doug Zaga

Just checking yes Knebworth was '79


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

listen to slayer

but not you though Anne - eek


----------



## Christopher Jones

maggie fraser said:


> Hey Leslie, I reckon you and I could be good friends. Have you kicked out the male yet ? I am very close .


Looking at playing a few games for the other team Maggie? :-k


----------



## Anne Vaini

Proud of myself. This is really, really silly. I was planning on training Hunter. But then there was confusion at the door, trying to get my dog to go inside ( she officially earned the title "****tard" ) and Hunter outside. He was stressed out. So I pruned some bushes and ignored him. He brought a toy over a few times. I threw it and ignored him. A few hours later I grabbed some biscuits. He was normal-dog happy. We did about 15 behaviors/rewards. He started by offering a down, so I went with positions. I think he might have figured out the stand. I think I am giving some body language help - need to take video of myself. I stopped doing the back up into a stand because y'all told me to back off on the overwhelming/forward body language. So I did a tiny bit of stepping forward into a stand. Apparently he rememberd it. 

Instead of trying to coddle and encourage him through stress #-o, I let it go. Came back later and we both had some fun.

Years ago I worked with some seriously neurotic, fear-biters. Really messed up shelter dogs. _Dogs that don't get better if you leave them alone. _To save them from euthanasia, I had to be very aggressive in working them through. Flooding, pushing them through shut-down. Very un-fun training for everyone. But also lifesaving. 

So I have a learned pattern of pushing a stressed dog. With Hunter, it had shown up as trying to play to eliminate the stress. Like you would work a stressed dog to fix a typewriter grip. I've learned to back off and wait until later. (Thank you). And it works. 

I'm off to go ignore a dog for a few hours.


----------



## Tanith Wheeler

How about making some simple fun obstacles in your yard? A broom over two chairs makes a jump... etc. Use the toy drive for that and it'll build his trust and confidence in you.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

How about you join that softball team I mentioned.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Tanith Wheeler said:


> How about making some simple fun obstacles in your yard? A broom over two chairs makes a jump... etc. Use the toy drive for that and it'll build his trust and confidence in you.


Like.  I think he'll get nervous with something so different. So big test for me to lay some foundation without stressing him out.


----------



## Christina Kennedy

I read through most of the Hunter posts and most of what has been written seems to be sound advice. The one thing I will comment on is your thought that a dog needs a job to be happy. I assure you, that is not true of most dogs spare the very hard working bred line dogs (and even then, many don't need a "job"). My old Border Collie had tons of drive and energy. We did agility, herding, and flyball. We trained a few times a week and trialed every weekend. I abruptly stopped everything and moved into an apartment when I started college. Here is a dog who knew nothing but her "job". Surprise surprise....she settled in very quickly and was just as happy being the college dog, swimming, and playing ball with my friends. She loved agility and came back to play a little years later. However, she did not know the difference and loved just being a dog and pet.

My driven young GSD trains very often in Schutzhund and dabbles in agility. Months sometimes go by with no training at all. He does not suffer and really does not know the difference. He is JUST as happy running the yard, swimming, playing ball, and chewing a bone. Sure there are dogs who are hard wired to NEED to do something more mentally stimulating but it certainly does not look like Hunter is that way. He sounds like he would rather be a pet, play ball, and eat food. Almost every Golden I have met wants a tennis ball, a pool or lake, food, and a kid to throw that ball in the lake. Why the NEED to make him "have a job"?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Christina Kennedy said:


> I read through most of the Hunter posts and most of what has been written seems to be sound advice. The one thing I will comment on is your thought that a dog needs a job to be happy. I assure you, that is not true of most dogs spare the very hard working bred line dogs (and even then, many don't need a "job"). My old Border Collie had tons of drive and energy. We did agility, herding, and flyball. We trained a few times a week and trialed every weekend. I abruptly stopped everything and moved into an apartment when I started college. Here is a dog who knew nothing but her "job". Surprise surprise....she settled in very quickly and was just as happy being the college dog, swimming, and playing ball with my friends. She loved agility and came back to play a little years later. However, she did not know the difference and loved just being a dog and pet.
> 
> My driven young GSD trains very often in Schutzhund and dabbles in agility. Months sometimes go by with no training at all. He does not suffer and really does not know the difference. He is JUST as happy running the yard, swimming, playing ball, and chewing a bone. Sure there are dogs who are hard wired to NEED to do something more mentally stimulating but it certainly does not look like Hunter is that way. He sounds like he would rather be a pet, play ball, and eat food. Almost every Golden I have met wants a tennis ball, a pool or lake, food, and a kid to throw that ball in the lake. Why the NEED to make him "have a job"?


 
Christina if u read this thread like u said u did u would know that yr post above was completely wasted. :-\"

hi by the way :-D


----------



## Christina Kennedy

HI! 







well yea...I guess I am stubborn as well as being a procrastinator. And I have been told I ask "why" way too much.... 

A friend recently started a discussion asking what other dog sport competitors would do if their dog woke up one day and decided they hated their "job" (we all know this doesn't happen without some incident but it was hypothetical). What would they do? The consensus was to find something else the dog enjoyed or was good at and enjoy it with him. Sound advice. 

I had a Border Collie about 2 1/2 years ago that was naturally environmentally sensitive and a bit reactive. We worked on things long enough that he COULD have a stable life somewhere. The basics necessary for him to have a good life in the right environment. He is now a very happy pet dog on a small farm where he is very much loved. My ego could have forced me into "making" him an agility dog. I could then have touted how I "fixed" all of his issues and pat myself on the back. All the while dragging a dog around to trials who would never give 100% because it was not in his nature to be a sport dog. I just don't get it. 

OK OK- I get the point Peter  My lips are further sealed.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with WHAT you said.

the OP'er is a solipist n she aint hearin ya


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with WHAT you said.
> 
> the OP'er is a solipist n she aint hearin ya


I'm not sure that Anne is that complicated?
I don't think she wants training advise. I think she just wants attention?


----------



## Anne Vaini

Christina Kennedy said:


> I had a Border Collie about 2 1/2 years ago that was naturally environmentally sensitive and a bit reactive. We worked on things long enough that he COULD have a stable life somewhere. The basics necessary for him to have a good life in the right environment. He is now a very happy pet dog on a small farm where he is very much loved. My ego could have forced me into "making" him an agility dog. I could then have touted how I "fixed" all of his issues and pat myself on the back. All the while dragging a dog around to trials who would never give 100% because it was not in his nature to be a sport dog. I just don't get it.


My goal - last year - was just to get Hunter comfortable around me. Which is good now as long as I continue to back off if he is confused.

Another goal was to stop the growling. And now I'm seeing how (1) I have caused it and (2) he's a vocal dog and I'm overreacting and (3) he growls when he is happy, in a greeting ritual, and in play. So to stop the growling, I have to blame me, not him and change my behavior.

Then next one was to start to interact, play, to brush up on goal #1, and get to goal #2. I'm on week 3? and seeing good improvement. 

I guess the question is "should I make another goal to work towards?". I could stop now and do some "maintenance" (play with him a couple times a week). Or do some OB or agility or rally or something. In reality, my neighbor will be done training my dog (Cabella) for the fair in 3 weeks. I'll get back to training my dog and forget about Hunter mostly.


----------



## Sara Waters

Anne Vaini said:


> I guess the question is "should I make another goal to work towards?". I could stop now and do some "maintenance" (play with him a couple times a week). .


The answer to the first question is in your second sentence.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Got some FANTASTIC growling yesterday. :lol:

Hunter and Cabella have different food - they sound different when scooped. They each have figured out the sound of their own food to the point they don't respond when they hear the other dog's food.

I ran out of Cabella's food. Rather than fill up her bucket, I scopped out some of Hunter's food. He comes running over. I had already put food in the dish, but hadn't released Cabella to eat. So I flick my index finger - cue to get out of my way or go away. He backs up into the living room GROWLING. I didn't move away from him and stayed ready to block him from returning to the food. I did not have to. He just stood there all weird and confused-like and growled loudly. When Cabella was done eating, he walked away and it was like nothing happened.

Supports my theory that one cause is confusion. I'm glad I didn't do anything about it. Sounds backwards on paper to ignore a sign of aggression, but I think it worked out big picture. He's not weird around me today. Didn't growl at me when I got home and sat on the couch (an old problem now resolved). He actually cuddled up with me for a little while.

Cabella is done with 4H dog project so I'll be back to training my dog and probably forget about Hunter soon.


----------



## leslie cassian

You've figured out that growling is just part of his communication, right??


----------



## Anne Vaini

Yeah, seriously freaks me out sometimes. I've had a lot of bad experiences with aggressive dogs. I'm getting my head straight that HIS growl does not necessarily mean aggression.


----------



## Randy Allen

Yeah,
Now he's just another nobody, a piece of furniture.
Is he at least going to get to keep his bed this time around?


----------



## Anne Vaini

Randy Allen said:


> Yeah,
> Now he's just another nobody, a piece of furniture.
> Is he at least going to get to keep his bed this time around?


Ya mean his dog bed, the couch, or our bed? :-$ He's back to sleeping on the couch which makes me happy. He doesn't jump off when I sit on the other end. When my fiance is gone, he lays by the door. When my fiance is home, he lays on his dog bed by my fiance's desk. He has more than one place he is comfortable and no growling when he goes from one to another. Good things. Probably most would take for granted, but really good that he's so much more relaxed than this time last year.


----------



## Joby Becker

my dog growls at me all the time...

especially when I try to push her out of correct position...that pisses her off..


----------



## Randy Allen

While you're keeping 'his' bedding for him, you may think about about letting him have 'his' food bowl back too.

What I'm trying to say Anne; is that if you don't want to regress back to yesteryear you're going to have to MAINTAIN what you have now. You can't just leave one like it never existed to go on to another and expect the forgotten one to not revert to it's default position.

Make sense?

If you don't have time, energy, attention span or etc for two dogs......then you shouldn't have two dogs around.
Think about it.


----------



## Sara Waters

Randy Allen said:


> While you're keeping 'his' bedding for him, you may think about about letting him have 'his' food bowl back too.
> 
> What I'm trying to say Anne; is that if you don't want to regress back to yesteryear you're going to have to MAINTAIN what you have now. You can't just leave one like it never existed to go on to another and expect the forgotten one to not revert to it's default position.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> If you don't have time, energy, attention span or etc for two dogs......then you shouldn't have two dogs around.
> Think about it.


I was thinking the same and I am certainly not going to spend my time answering in detail about a dog that is going to be forgotten fairly shortly. It just doesnt make sense.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Randy Allen said:


> While you're keeping 'his' bedding for him, you may think about about letting him have 'his' food bowl back too.
> 
> What I'm trying to say Anne; is that if you don't want to regress back to yesteryear you're going to have to MAINTAIN what you have now. You can't just leave one like it never existed to go on to another and expect the forgotten one to not revert to it's default position.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> If you don't have time, energy, attention span or etc for two dogs......then you shouldn't have two dogs around.
> Think about it.


I thought maintain would be to NOT do anything stupid (God I'm good at being stupid). Deal with "situations" like the food thing. Let him communicate via growling. Don't correct growling, but don't be a total pushover and back off - that would reinforce an inappropriate behavior.

I've been having an interesting chat via PM about respecting dogs' different ways to communicate. From a person with a growly dog. When I'm at work (grooming) I perceived growling as communication _that I should respond to_. A dog will "tell" me if I've pinched the quick, hit a hidden snarl or mat.

I don't have the same "respect" for a dog I know well. Probably because I'm not too woried about losing a piece of my body, and I *think* I know the situation. I *think* I know what the dog percieve and how it interprets it. I might know that for my dog because we spend so much time interacting and training. But I don't *actually* know that about Hunter, I know his basic temperament and make assumptions from there.

I think if I don't do anything stupid, continue to use predictable body and verbal cues around the house, and play with him once in a while, he'll be OK. He's a cool dog when he's not hating on me, lol.

Randy - do you think there is anything else or different I should be thinking about/doing for maintaining?


----------



## Aaron Myracle

Anne Vaini said:


> I'll get back to training my dog and forget about Hunter mostly.





Anne Vaini said:


> Cabella is done with 4H dog project so I'll be back to training my dog and probably forget about Hunter soon.


So... I'm confused. Whose dog is Hunter?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Aaron Myracle said:


> So... I'm confused. Whose dog is Hunter?


You ain't the only one Aaron 
Hunter is the boyfriends dog, which IMO makes all this obsession (post after post and topic after topic) with him so problematic?


----------



## Anne Vaini

It's been about 2 years since beginning to deal with this dog.

I learned: he was going to be euthanized for agression towards a trainer. The vet couldn't solicit an aggressive response. Hunter will get very aggressive if he recieves a correction he didn't understand. Last year I was playing fetch with him and another dog. I grabbed his collar to give the other dog a chance - this is normal. That day he must not have noticed me take his collar. I threw the ball he started off after it, hit the collar and turned around in attack. He had been sent out to a hunting trainer. I'm assuming that trainer used compulsion.

Anyway, that just an interesting story. 

Hunter finally has me figured out. Either he is an attentive dog, or he learned a lot from watching me train service dogs. When I'm starting so have problems he will come right to me and stare at me, then climb up in my lap. He's not nearly as effective as a service dog because he has no idea what he is doing, but I appreciate it anyway. He has started soliciting attention from me - and not only when my fiance is gone or busy. Most of the time he wants to play or work for a treat, but sometimes he wants to sit next to me... really weird, but OK.

Since he is getting used to my body language and non-verbal cues, he has relaxed on the couch. He now understands when I want him to move (I want his spot), or stay (I want to sit next to him). This ended a lot of grumpy getting off the couch.

I haven't done much training with him. I have not been well lately. I was bad off enough I couldn't take care of my dog and have been dogless for quite a while. I did get an interactive puzzle game; Hunter really loves it. Very nice because he was at first afraid of the plastic pieces ratling, it was nice to see him overcome that.

Cabella, my dog, I was unable to care for her. She was as intense as a mal. Maybe more. In a lab's body. She was good when she had me plus all the training my neighbor was doing every day. But after that things started going downhill. She got a little incontinent, and even with medication she couldn't be lose at night... so she couldn't do some of her service dog tasks. And my health started going downhill then. Anyhow, happy endning - She went to an awesome home, I am very happy for her.

There will be a dog in my future when I am more healthy. It will be something small, calm, and with the lowest amount of drive to make it trainable. I overestimated what I could take care of. I am fortunate to have neighbors and my (reluctant) fiance that took care of Cabella while I couldn't and until she got her home.

I wanted to update the Hunter threads that have been ongoing for so long. Please don't be offended if I can't respond to all replies. I wanted to share that Hunter has relaxed and appears to have accepted me. We're not having any of the problems I had brought up over the years. I would like to train him, but I haven't been able to. Maybe someday...


----------



## leslie cassian

It sounds like you have been through some rough times. I'm glad that you were able to do what was right for Cabella and place her in a good home. It sounds like you and Hunter are working things out and that he is not as stressed as he was and that you are more able to appreciate him for the dog that he is. Take care of yourself.


----------

