# More Corgi Sheep Herding



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Okay, so this time I didn't consciously put that much pressure on Conan. This is still probably better handling than I've ever done. I'm supposed to be doing figure 8s but am not doing so well.

Anyway, you can see what normally happens in the pen for us. It's not so bad, but it's not where I want to be. I do feel like I am improving though, especially from Terrasita's help! Thanks, and enjoy.

http://vimeo.com/9431894

http://vimeo.com/9431965


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, much better. I can see what's in the dog. Listen to your trainer say get a BC in the first video. You are causing a lot of the splits by walking in front of the dog and cutting him off. Then there is the endless circle in one direction. You look kinda bored meandering and you're not helping the dog to stay right. But of course your trainer isn't offering anything in terms of how to go from point A to point B and keep the dog balanced on the stock. Your dog is sensitive to pressure---your's not so much the stock. You never talk to him to let him know what right is. I understand you're sort of out there waiting for something from your trainer. Sensitive dogs that shut down with the pressure can be kinda difficult to work for a first timer. But again, you don't know the things to do and she's not telling you. Look at the video for when you walk straight into him or cross in front of him and what happens. 

The trainer offers more in the second video. Where you are now is that you are letting him split and bust and then when he has them all together, she says you should be backing up. The first step is to teach him not to split them in the first place; i.e. the path to the stock is around them, not through them. Then when he reaches the top, back up---not go around in a circle. Put out two cones--one at one end of the pen and the other at the other end of the pen. You have to first practice sending your dog to collect the sheep and being in the right place to make sure he goes around. Once he is behind them start backing up to the cone in a straight line. Its his job to keep the sheep to you. You can help him by blocking so that he does not do circles. Next you have to be able to send the dog around for the turn at the cone and go back the other way. After that I do random turns. The dog should make appropriate adjustments to keep the stock to you during these walkabouts and turns. After we work on the being able to move stock from point A to point B and balance with random turns, then comes the working perimeter---i.e. working the stock from farther away. This is kinda my order of things for the beginning and it doesn't matter what breed---GSD, aussie, corgi, bouvier or the goofy BC that I don't work enough and that would be a gread dog for Bob.

Terrasita


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thank you so much Terrasita. I do talk to him in the pen, you just can't hear me. Even when he leaves I call him back but you can't hear that either. Probably because it's video from a digital camera and not an actual camcorder.

But I probably don't do it enough anyways and should praise him more. The problem is... I don't really know when he's doing anything right! But I think you've realized that as well. I thought it was just me not understand how to be a good handler at first, but I always secretly felt I wasn't really getting any guidance. Now I know that's not entirely the case. 

I am having a lot of fun, I'm just very confused. I am still waiting for an email back from the trainer we talked about through PMs and if not I might have a few more people to contact. Our last lesson with this trainer is next Sunday.

Thanks again!


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Do the sheep learn to stay close to the human?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm told they do. My trainer says those are pretty broke sheep. But I don't feel like they follow me anywhere.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeah, they do, but I don't use sheep that will stay with the handler regardless of what the dog does beyond the first few sessions. Its the dog's job to maintain the correct position to keep his sheep grouped and moving in a line. Katie, in tape #1 the dog is working more. In tape #2, do you see how you walked straight into him pushing him into the fence then he started sniffing. Think peanut butter sandwich and the sheep are the peanut butter. You and the dog do NOT belong on the same side. Also in tape you start putting the flag on him and he spends more time off the stock. You have to learn where and when to put pressure on the dog and where and when not to. The sheep are a little more resistent in tape #2 so he has to work harder. So he has pressure from them and pressure from you. You had one point where you directed him around the sheep nice with the flag and moved off for him to continuing bringing them to you. That's the picture you want and to keep walking straight across the pen. Notice how you only turn him to the away side??? You are making him one sided. You have to work with him being able to work both sides. This trainer seems more interested in getting you a BC. If Judy is too busy to respond, I would try Cathy Modica. But keep in mind how pressure sensitive he is. As far as that flag is concerned one of mine would have run through it, jumped it or just plain grabbed it. He's really sensitive to it so you have to be careful. Incidentally, a 2 year old male is mushy brain and pressure sensitive. This is generally the age that we kind of coast along. Age 3-5 is mecca in terms of how they handle pressure, consistency, etc. You want to work on him being sustained in his work so you have to be right to keep him that way and you need someone really interested in developing him. You need to learn how your movement and placement affects him and the stock.

Maybe if it EVER stops snowing here I can get some film of my little rugrat Khaldi and show you what they are capable of. 


Terrasita​


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

She wasn't telling me to get a BC, she was telling one of the other girls to. It's a group lesson. She's mostly talking to that other girl, who has a Corgi/Boston Terrier mix and wants to get into trialling. 

I only go right because it's the only way I know how to go! I don't know how to change directions and really am mostly following the sheep. I was walking between them to change direction (the only thing that I thought might possibly work). I won't do that anymore. 

I'm really afraid of ruining this for him or breaking him. He's very soft. But he's usually very stubborn. He was very tired the last time around (what you saw in the second video) and I thought that's what it was, along with the other dog hanging around outside the fence. I didn't realize it was from me putting pressure on him. I'll keep in mind what you said about his age too. He is still maturing, that's for sure.

I would LOVE to see videos of you and your pups. Photos too. But videos would be a great learning tool!

Thanks again Terrasita, and I will contact Cathy Modica (though I think she only works Monday mornings, which I can't make).


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie, 

Its the trainer's job to point these things out to you. I know she wasn't talking to you. It just shows her frame of mind. When I started, I got emails from BC people almost saying the same thing verbatim. I think the trainer should be really vested in making you the best with YOUR dog. You can't chit chat on the sideline. Herding is very split second in the moment. Case in point I took the camera to shoot pictures of Thunder. I was so involved in what he and Bob was doing, my pictures were lousy and I'm generally pretty good. I can go out and work a session with the ducks and have hubby video for me maybe. Usually I have Bob setting so he can't futz around with a camera but maybe to show some of the beginning stuff just to show walkabouts and turns. You have to realize that a LOT of trainers don't think corgis are capable of higher levels of work so I'm extra-sensitive to that sort of thing. They should approach them with the same level of interest and high expectations. So I'll work on the video.

Terrasita


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks Terrasita! I see the light now. I didn't realize so many people didn't think Corgis could work! Now I'm REALLY determined...

Definitely can't wait for those videos!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Ooh ohh, yeah Terrasita, bring on the videos. This is very informative since I can't get any herding help in person.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looking much better Katie. The dog suddenly looks like it's working instead of following you around. 
Your movement is causing the dog issues. DUH, do I have THAT ringing in my ears :lol: :wink:
Al, some dogs are natural gatheres (keeping them to the handler). 
What T said about the sheep being followers. IF the dog gathers correctly the sheep have no choice. 
Thunder is a gatherer but he still puts to much pressure on the sheep (to close) but when they pass me by he immediately goes to their head and turns them. The ideal (were working on it) is for the sheep to be behind the handler and the dog is following the sheep. Not necessarily directly behind but in a position to see the front of the flock. Thunder's pressure, at this point in time, keeps the sheep directly ahead of me. The fuzzy bassids are using me as a blocker. :lol: 
I'm in no hurry to "correct" him for this because I want a natural working dog. It will come! To many just place the dog with commands. That works for trial time (points) but nothing like watching a herding dog using it's head. That often times means dissing my command and using his head. 99 times out of 100 the dog is correct. I'm just not quick enough to respond as fast as the dog. To may will correct for this "disobedience" and the dog starts second guessing what the handler wants and not necessarily what the stock needs. 
T, if I came home with Ricky you'd probably never see me again. Neither would my neighbors, the family, the police even. Cool little crazy dog...even if he is a BC.  :-# :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

PS
T, you shoulda had pics of Khaldi working ducks at the trial. As good as it gets!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks Bob, sounds like Conan does a lot of things Thunder does. He puts a lot of pressure on the sheep. Next weekend I think I'll just let him have fun. I'll try not to put any pressure on him and I sure won't walk in between him in the sheep.

I'm at an AHBA trial right now. So cool watching all the dogs. One Pembroke and a lot of Cardigans here. Two GSDs too. 

It looks hard, but I really want to do it. It's a really nice, relaxing trial. Not anything like I thought. 

I'm still looking for more trainers in Southern California. I want as many recommendations as possible please!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

katie-thanks for posting those, and please keep them coming! i personally like corgi's (they think they're GSD), and they WERE bred to herd. hopefully some day Ike will get some sheep experience.

anyway, someone that's on your side of the coast that is an excellent resource for herding knowledge: shelly, at http://tehillahgermanshepherds.com/.

and, as always, here at WDF, T!! once Ike gets some age and training on him, we'll be making a road trip--almost got it done last summer with Edge. and i promise to post any vids i get of us stumbling thru the process as well, ok?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks Ann! It's definitely starting to look up for me. I'm beginning to feel like a title is possible. And I agree, Corgis really are like mini GSDs. 

I'd love to see your photos and videos! I'm really glad I went to this trial. I met some good people and was invited to a Corgi herding instinct test just to hang out, watch, and meet people (since Conan doesn't need to test). I'm really excited.

Thanks everyone for the kind words and encouragement!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

a corgi HIT would be cool to go see--what parameters do they use for corgis (vs other herding dogs)? or is it just the 'standard" HIT but exclusively for corgis? and it was nice to hear that there were a # of cardigans working as well; they're even more rare than a pembroke from my understanding.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

It's the first trial I've ever been to so I'm not 100% sure. The Corgis there only did the JHD test, whereas the other dogs were doing higher levels. I hate to say it but the Corgi handlers were really trying to get titled too fast (a husband and wife had the three Cardis). One was only 7 months old! The wife was just really frustrated and was actually chasing each dog at one point in their trial period.

Hopefully Conan and I can do much better!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

PLEASE keep in mind that corgis aren't typically soft. They are generally stock hard and handler hard, for that matter. They don't need special classes. They were bred to work cattle. Their tool kit is usually speed, bark, bite and in that order. Their tool kit isn't the best for the usual light sheep that we get in trials but they can and do get the job done. I won't work a corgi that can't work all stock and get the farm chores done. I hold them to the same working standard as my GSDs and bouv. You wanna see a gorgeous BC outrun, watch Khaldi. I trialed her one day with a BC judge coming out of her chair exclaiming---"that's the only outrun of the day." Khaldi is my best dog in the pasture and she can work pens and chutes with the best of them. They are different and ya gotta know them and LOVE them to get the best out of them. They do hate repetition and all the paw step detail involved with A Course. Mine run best in the AHBA ranch type chores. The only draw back for Khaldi at 10 inches is that she is too short for the trailer work for the higher levels around here. Khaldi's drawback is trying to get rate and pace. She is the busiest dog I've worked and she isn't the most biddable creature but she is all HEART and FUN. 

Terrasita


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I'd take a Corgi over any other dog any day. That's why I have one. And I certainly expect the same from him as any other herding breed. Conan will run and split the sheep, like you've seen, and he'll bite them too. Especially on the shoulders. The other week actually he was confronted by a sheep and had to get head butted before he backed off.

Our next lesson, the last one with our current trainer, I'm just gonna let him have fun in there I think. I don't know why he's so soft with me. I use marker training and he really doesn't get corrected often. I guess he's just really handler soft.

I just want him to have fun and am afraid to ruin it for him.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

poor sheep  lol

Don't know crap about herding but saw a video of a gsd doing it in germany, and he was nailing the sheep in the shoulder/neck area, that was surprising to me. Most breeds nip at the legs right?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The grip in the GSD is the neck withers and sometimes to the back of the leg. More often its to the neck withers. The day I saw my GSD Asta eyeing the withers of a cow I knew I was in trouble. Just worked the bouv a few weeks ago on cattle with one that thought it could fight in the corner. They came out of the corner with her on its neck. That was scary. Just did a few minutes out in the snow with the ducks. They did NOT want to move which was actually good. For the first time, Khaldi was in the pocket using a force bark. Joby, you will have headers and heelers. My first corgi would hit the nose and once the neck when a sheep was running toward my then toddler to stop it, but never did he heel. Whereas my Morgwyn is a true heeler--biting real low to to the hock with her head almost on the ground--no way to kick her. The good ones like Rory could gauge which was the weighted foot vs. non-weighted.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, here's about 10 minutes of working in the snow with COLD ducks that didn't want to move. You'll see her outrun as she runs along the fence to get to the back of the ducks in the wire basket and then we fetch them. I did some turns and fetches. Khaldi likes to work close and will bump the ducks with her chest to make them move which is NOT effective so I have to work alot on pace and her giving them time to move off her. Today she actually BARKED to make them move while she stayed behind them. She never barks while working. She prefers to wear in big sweeping flanks to keep stock moving and group which isn't effective in AKC work so as I back into the fence I'm saying no, stay in the pocket and keep them moving forward. Where you hear "yes" that's basically a marker and release. You can see the effect of how she responds to my hands and the stick vs. no hands, stick.

http://www.dropshots.com/kyndaara#date/2010-02-15


Terrasita


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita, that was WONDERFUL! Thank you so much for filming that. Especially out in the cold!! Yeesh that must have felt like twice the work for all of you. Thank whoever filmed you for me too! By the way, Khaldi is just a doll. Conan is pretty verbal, so I'm used to the barking 

I really have such a better idea about things now. After that video and talking to the people I met today, I am really excited to get things going. I go to meet Judy Vanderford and all the other Corgi herders down here on March 7th. I am SO happy. Thank you everyone so much for everything!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

No problem. We lucked out that its Valentines Day and since I'm low maintenance and don't really require roses, there's videoing snow herding. I can't remember the last time I worked Khaldi so actually WE were having fun. She was a bit wired. Hubby and the ducks didn't find it as amusing. I'd rather do snow than torrential rain. We're trialing in a couple of weeks and with the way the weather is going, we could have the same conditions. Have fun with Judy and if you meet Jerry and Sharon Pratt, tell them I said hello.


Terrasita


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Glad you both got to have fun. It really was a lot of help and it was fun to watch! I like your husband at the end, clearly wanting to be done lol. 

Good luck trialing! Let us know how it goes :grin: And I will definitely send them your hello!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Poor ducks

Very cool stuff. Interesting


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I love watching that busy little $#!+ 
In response to someone asking if the stock is trained to follow the handler;
Look at the times these ducks willingly pass T or even stay in one spot when T moves away. That's where the dog's job is to "return" them to T. Stock worked long enough will eventually learn to follow the handler but that can slow down the dog's job of learning what needs to be done. Good for beginning but not necessarily for the advanced dog. 
I will add that Khaldi is a great little dog for breaking in "green" ducks because her instinct to hold them to T is so strong.
khaldi's strong suit is her WIDE outruns and flanking. She rarely splits stock by going right into them. 
I've also never seen her take a bite or even nip at the ducks but she'll happily nail a stubborn ewe in the nose to convince it she's running the show.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob, she did five laps around the stock tank while I was walking from the porch to the duck pen. I remember running her in the started classes when she was three and she still hasn't slowed down. She HATES going at their pace. She's never going to have Khira's eye/rate but her holding her side with the force bark, I'll take. If she worked with more distance, she wouldn't have to feel the pressure all the time. Did you notice the evil duck taking a swipe at her as she bolted in for the lifts. He also of course thought he'd go hide in the branches under the tree but she fixed that and toodled right out. Naahhhh, she's not gonna bite down on a duck. She will do a pounce, hold and bump with her chest and I still love how she takes her nose and flips them out of the corners when they want to burrow in.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I forgot about her nose flipping in the corners. Beats Khira's method of clearing a corner. Pick em up and carry them to the center of the pen and setting them down. That's going to be a hard one to forget. Or Thunder standing there with one of the nasty ducks actually biting and hanging onto Thunder's shoulder. Thunder had that WTF look on his face before he shook it off. 
A little Khaldi, a bit of Khira and some of Thunder and we've have one helluva dog.
Come to think of it we got three helluva dogs. :wink:
In time Trooper is going to add his............ :-k.........joyfullness to the group.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

One of the guys in Scotland remarked how peculiar American herders are in insisting that one dog be able to do it all. He went out every morning with a Beardie and a BC. Each had its own job. Each dog brings his own special talents. Not one person could qualify at the ASCA trial on those non-broke ducks until Khaldi worked all 40 of them through the course to break them and show them the ropes. She's an absolute dream on breaking lambs because she is so wide and she releases pressure. Yet rate/pace work can be a deal breaker. You never got to see Teva-GSD work but she was the go to dog for not making a mess of it and you could just talk to her. There was a time when I got all the cows and the goats in that little alleyway behind the corral. I did not want to let them all out and start all over. I climbed up on the fence and was able to point to each goat for Teva to take that one out and keep the cows in at the same time. Teva didn't have Khaldi's coverage so lost her sheep out in that 9 acre pasture her first time out. They took off for the trees. With that ground scent tracking of hers, she located them off in the forest somewhere and brought them back clean as a whistle. She worked clean without messes. She was also great with the lambs. Khira has the most precision of any dog I've worked. I don't recall outscoring all the BC handlers ever and she did that her first trial. Yet she has that load/explode feature. She is not the dog for light/fright sheep but can be her weight in gold with breaking cattle. 

You work with what the dog brings to the table. Katie's dog is a tad handler soft. Yet at least twice he dealt with a sheep facing him off. A shorty needs that ability or else the stock will walk into the pen thinking they can make mince meat of him. In the name of trialing, you can't take that out. I always let the dog know that the hierarchy in the pen is handler, dog, stock and yep, the poor quackers have to live by that rule too.


Terrasita


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Thanks Terrasita! I see the light now. I didn't realize so many people didn't think Corgis could work! Now I'm REALLY determined...
> 
> Definitely can't wait for those videos!


What! Corgis cant work livestock? Oh my, they are dynamite! I figure that is why God made 'em that small lol:. No, I have seen many, mostly Cardigans herd down in our area (Louisiana). One handler's guys are so tough and tenacious, they have been NQ many times for damage to the sheep. I have thought many times about downsizing from my GSDs and DS to a Corgi as the years come on. But did acquire a nice little Cattle dog last year who I hope to start on ducks rather soon. (Have been raising a couple dozen Pekings and KCs iin anticipation).

I know I am late in this thread but have enjoyed the heck out of reading the herding lingo and scenarios again. Nothing like watching a herding breed do what comes natural. Personally, I am not a BC type person although a dear friend who I introduced to herding about 5 years ago has BCs and is actually now a herding judge!! Travels all over the place for trials. Yeh and he is supposed to be moving back to our state so I look to be getting some lessons soon, hence the reason to start raising the ducks. =D> The GSDs do much better on the C course but most trials dont accommodate them so we havent gone far. The closest training is a 4+ hour drive so my training with the GSDs was sparse. Low training time equates to damage control on the field. So, the costs was prohibitive to say the least!! 

Sure hoping this little Cattle dog works out. I'll let ya know. 

I hope ya''ll keep up this thread on the latest herding endeavors you're involved in. I esp like the videos. Thanx again for sharing.


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