# Dangerous



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I am by no means trying to stir things up or compare any dog sports. 
I have seen many video clips of bite work through the years but since joining this site i have been viewing allot more of the ring videos. I have been blown away by some of the power and speed and most unbelievable shots some of these dogs make and take. (see my signature)
I really have to ask how many injuries happen to these ring dogs. I'm not blind or a idiot. 
When dogs come in that fast with perfect helper work or not there has to be injuries. 
In my sport every thing is orchestrated and practiced hundreds and hundreds of times. The dog bites with in a 1' area on a sleeve every time. In ring looks like any thing can happen and dose!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

It's probably why I think ring sports are more realistic and closer to what we teach in the PSD world. While we don't necessarily teach a specific target, I do want the dog to take best "hit" it thinks it has under the circumstances. Like you, I have no doubt, on occasion there are injuries. Less than you would think though.

DFrost


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Not at all an expert on ring sports, and I have been reluctant to put my dog in ring sport because of the appearance of neck injury risk. That said, my mal had a lot of visits to the chiro, especially after a protection training session, and he was working on schutzhund. He was young and inexperienced and would occasionally miss his timing on the takeoff for the bite and end up in all sorts of contortions. As he gained experience and became more sure-footed, he had less of that. The vet just blinked and nodded when i told her my dog had done a head stand - which he had, quite literally - at one point.

A friend of mine had to retire a dog at an early age because of an injury on an agility a-frame combined with an injury he got while in a crate.

So, I suppose life is dangerous. I also worked with event horses for a few years, which is quite dangerous. With the proper foundation work, the horses learn how to manage themselves and learn the timing for their take offs. I would imagine the same is true of dogs.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree with you David and Marcy. Injuries happen in any contact sport or in real life. Cops can get hurt tackleing a bad guy and he can get hurt in training to take down a bad guy. Dogs are no different. They get hurt in training and they get hurt on the street or in a sport just like football players. Any type of contact can get us or them hurt. That's all part of it. Of course we do all we can to keep us and them from getting hurt but it don't always work out. My dog Bentley injuried his ACL going after a bad guy, before he caught him.

It's like football, more people play that don't get seriously injuried than do. Dogs are the same. 

I hope this helps.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

It's been my experience that with most dogs you don't see the damage done until later on in life. Most of these dogs are so driven that a little sore spot here or there isn't going to slow them down. It's later in life when they are 10, 11, etc that you start to see the results of years of slamming, torque on bad catches, etc. 
For example, I know many people with Malinois who are not involved in protection sports. Instead their dogs are conformation dogs, or obedience, agility, herding, or family pets. Their dogs are living to be 14, 15, 16 and some are even making it to 17 or 18. And they die because of old age, organs failure, or they get cancer, etc. The working dogs I know are generally being put down at 12 or 13 and it's not because of cancer or any problems with their internal organs, but because of problems related to arthritis or old injuries. Occasionally one makes it to 14, but the ones who make it older seem to have not had as active of a working life. IE they trained and titled, but either got a later start, or took a few years off, or retired earlier then average, etc.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kadi, you make a good point. It's kind of the same with us humans as well. I know my body is now paying for many of the things done when much younger. 

DFrost


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

That was a great post, Kadi. I never really thought a lot about this topic before now. It kind of makes me think about how much involvement I really want my dog to have in long term "sports".


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

And while the sports are dangerous, so is everything else...yesterday I took my dog to a park and while he was sniffing for a place to potty near the edge of the parking lot, he didn't notice the curb. His foot caught the edge of the curb, his leg twisted and buckled. I haven't seen any indication of injury from it, but it certainly could have been. I'm not sure how much sense there is in shying away from sport as a way to prevent injury. 

I think the best approach is to do everything possible to minimize injury (make sure the dog is physically fit (strong muscle supports the rest of the body), make sure the foundation training teaches the dog how to maintain his footing and how to best judge the take off for bites as well as for jumps, and preventative care afterwards ~ such as chiro, massage, liniments, heat, etc.). also proper warm ups and cool downs to begin and end a session.

Now, I'm not saying I know how to do all that adequately. As an example ~ When I worked for a 3-day event rider, any time her horses had a strenuous day of training (jumping, galloping) she would poultice their legs that evening. Not that there was an injury, but as a therapeutic prentative.


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## Sharon Novak (Jan 31, 2008)

Last summer when my little bitch, had her dew claws removed, I asked my vet to do a spine xray, since she had just turned 7 the previous May. I was really amazed and slightly depressed at how much inflamation/arthritis was seen in her back especially the upper spine. Since, I have spoken with many people who say that's "normal" in fast hard hitting dogs whose drive is so strong that they don't slow down in their entries. 

So, now, we have a very short list of who we let work her and her trial career is shortening, with us being very selective about when we play. Also, with the exception of trials, we usually do her suit work from close distance, something normal for some serious ring folks I know. For the days before, during and after training/trialing we use meloxacam, the pill version of metacam, which is a great non-steroid anti-inflamitory. Also, whenever we work her, we warm her up slow and make sure that we NEVER put her up right after working. We cool her off a bit after walking and stretching a bit until she's not breathing so heavy. In a past life I was an acupressure massage therapist and so I use that on the doggies as well.

As yes it sucks like when you have blown out knees when you are older. But when you are young, you think you're invincible....

http://www.californiamondioring.org/ysha-flee/ysha-flee_content.html

is video of a mondio trial with little girl when we both were a little younger. The decoy was very experienced, but as is often the case, he saw a tiny little girl and underestimated her


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I understand what you are saying, Marcy. But three plus years of quality of life is something to consider. Not having anything against any kind of dog sports, I would personally consider early retirement after reading these posts.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Injuries are something that happens in life and for the life of me, I cannot understand why such a big deal is made. 

If your dog gets broken, it is not in the best interest of dogsports and the breeds to run about telling of the dangers of the sports.

I saw little kids on the playground running around with helmets on. I thought they were retarded, but no, it cut down on injuries according to the teachers. 

It all goes back to my theory that the meek shall inherit the earth not being a good thing.

Mals are supposed to do what they do, unfortunately for the most part, by the time most people get around to doing dog sport, they are already over the hill as an athelete, and so the dog gets crunkled here and there. I have a dog that does it to himself, and enjoys it. I will not be looking at X rays at 7, as I have seen him crunch in hard enough that he runs back a bit crooked. Unfortunately he loves every minute of it. I am quite sure that he will have a lot of pain when he gets older.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

That's what rymadyl is for.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Or a heavy dose of barbituates.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I just paint Ms on all my Advil.


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Hi Mike,

Being not as experienced in schutzhund, to me schutzhund looks more risky -- hard blunt object (sleeve), inexperienced certified helpers, forward momentum, really fast dog. I guess it's just perspective and what you are accustomed to.
Like the PSA dogs biting in the pocket, when the dog hits -- the decoy swings -- It's not skill, it's cent. force.

I hope a decoy might chirp up here -- ??


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Injuries are something that happens in life and for the life of me, I cannot understand why such a big deal is made.
> 
> If your dog gets broken, it is not in the best interest of dogsports and the breeds to run about telling of the dangers of the sports.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on 2/3 of your post. The dog thing I don't and here is why. We have bread these animals to perform beyond there own self preservation. Ill give you a example of my gun dog from many years ago. I could not allow the dog to hunt 3 full days in a row he would litterlay ware his nose down to a bloody globs. He would also run the pads rite off his feet to bloody globs. He would ware all the hair off his chest beyond the skin. 
I let this happen once. This animal was breed to perform/hunt There is no way I would settle for any thing less in my gun dog then or my sport dog today.
After your mention of bringing lite to dog injuries got me thinking I should not have made this post and kept it a thought. Every one has different views of dogs and I understand and have no problems with most of them. I have no problem with a one way hunting trip if called for.
But damn ya got a good dog I think it is up to you to watch out for him if he will suicide.
Now that I wish I didnt start this post I may as well try and make my point with this analogy.
Ring sport to me would be like taking my gun dog Pheasant hunting by some cliffs. Sooner or later something going to happen. I do enjoy watching it and admire it damn it looks risky.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

[But damn ya got a good dog I think it is up to you to watch out for him if he will suicide.]Quote Mike Scheiber

I agree totally. I don't need to go into detail but I owned a great GSD who was so prey driven he did just that at 3 years old. ](*,) I still feel guilty because I could have prevented him from going to the extreme.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> [But damn ya got a good dog I think it is up to you to watch out for him if he will suicide.]Quote Mike Scheiber
> 
> I agree totally. I don't need to go into detail but I owned a great GSD who was so prey driven he did just that at 3 years old. ](*,) I still feel guilty because I could have prevented him from going to the extreme.


My previous Shepherd got a nasty jam though he recovered. the helper had caught him since he was a pup he took a month or two off. He he shows back up at training he works my dog send him for a long bite bam folds him up backwards. Dog recovered but I always had to shine him up before I would trial him and build his confidence. The young dog I have now same thing crazy crazy nuts pray. I wont be making the same mistake this time. If a dog is will lay it all out I will do my best to protect him.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lisa Geller said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Being not as experienced in schutzhund, to me schutzhund looks more risky -- hard blunt object (sleeve), inexperienced certified helpers, forward momentum, really fast dog. I guess it's just perspective and what you are accustomed to.
> Like the PSA dogs biting in the pocket, when the dog hits -- the decoy swings -- It's not skill, it's cent. force.
> ...


Hi Lisa
There are going to be very few people that I am going to allow to catch this dog full field maxim threat.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I remember a bitch getting jammed at a National event...the judge gave the dog another chance on the long bite after the first jam, and the owner sent her again-jammed a second time, the dog screamed! It was awful to watch...I would have said forget it and gotten my dog off the field and to the Vet ASAP..I guess I love my dogs and if I can prevent something like that, I sure will.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Trish Campbell said:


> I remember a bitch getting jammed at a National event...the judge gave the dog another chance on the long bite after the first jam, and the owner sent her again-jammed a second time, the dog screamed! It was awful to watch...I would have said forget it and gotten my dog off the field and to the Vet ASAP..I guess I love my dogs and if I can prevent something like that, I sure will.


I hate to say it but sometimes I honestly believe personal pride takes over in situations like that. i.e. Self delusional: he will be ok, that wasn't so bad, I put all this time and money into this showing/event, traveled so far...yada yada; we are going to finish it and deal with results afterwards! I hate that idea!](*,) 
I could care less if we (my dog and I) are unable to finish or dont stand on the podium as long as he comes home safely and we had some fun! 8) 
This is not to say that I am not competetive! You can be sure that I am. :evil: 
Every trial/event is a learning experience, I learn from our mistakes as well those of others. I am not insinuating that I am a person who has trialed tons of times, (with working dogs I haven't yet...he is still a pup) but I have trailed with field trial labs and felt the same way.


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## Gloria Maxwell (Oct 28, 2007)

I adopted a Malinios from Ms. Hobby. She is called Ceyenne(Pepper) she is hot. Full and extreme. I love her. She is my protection and hopefully with a long full pampered life. She don't allow no arguments here. Wonderful protector. What else can you ask?

Gloria


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If your dog gets broken, it is not in the best interest of dogsports and the breeds to run about telling of the dangers of the sports.
> 
> Mals are supposed to do what they do, unfortunately for the most part, by the time most people get around to doing dog sport, they are already over the hill as an athelete, and so the dog gets crunkled here and there. I have a dog that does it to himself, and enjoys it. I will not be looking at X rays at 7, as I have seen him crunch in hard enough that he runs back a bit crooked. Unfortunately he loves every minute of it. I am quite sure that he will have a lot of pain when he gets older.


Jeff .. your post is a great honest post I have been following this post since the beginning and for the life of me I don't get what the OP is trying to tell us. He says one thing in his signature that his dog is the next big thing then posts that he thinks Ringsport is like taking your dog retrieving next to a cliff .. #-o That statement to me is false and misleading. 

I see my dog engage the decoy with her tail all wagging and the tail just doesn't stop when it comes to the jumps and obedience. She loves the action, and I wouldn't let her stop because of a fear of injury for the life of me. To me she is a working dog so make her work. Why someone would want to make a big deal about bumps and bruises from dog sport is beyond me. My dog sure wouldn't be happy kept in a plastic bubble away from all perils. 

To me the real dangerous thing for a dog is the plethoria of off leash dog parks. Every time I have ever attended one of those things there is some dog off in the distance getting the snot beat out of it in a dog fight with the owner crying and bawling to stop it. Or some other related dumb dog owner nonsense. Really to bad as I'd love to be able to take my dog to someplace like that so I could throw a frisbee or make her retrieve with a Chuck-it. But the influx of untrained dogs and even less trained owners makes that a much more risky proposition than training in Ringsport. Not just from physical trauma from bites etc, it is mental trauma especially for a young dog. 

Another horribly dangerous condition that causes more physical injuries to more dogs than Ringsport is the poorly trained and proofed recall. I'm sure every vet office probably daily gets a Dog in that has been nailed by a car or bus, ripped open by a fence, maybe with a face full of porcupine quills or worse yet skunked because of poor or non existent recall. I can call my dog off of pretty well any critter now. We learned that in Ringsport .. go figure .. 

I don't know but I have gotten a pretty awesomely trained stable and social dog because of Ringsport. Dangerous .... see my eye .. ;-) :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sometimes the dogs get hurt because of the work of and inexperienced decoy that has been progressed to fast and has nothing to work with when a dog does something odd, sometimes it just happens, and sometimes the dog is just to stupid for his own good. All need to be evaluated before "dangerous" gets to some stupid PETA people and they begin a massive effort to shut us down.

For every dog that gets broken there are many many more that do not. That is why there are more than one or two in a litter.


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