# Marker training a recall



## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

In marker training, when is the marker given for the come command? To me the dog's initial change of direction to come back to the handler is the start of the command being properly followed but until the dog hustles back and sits by the handler the whole command is not complete.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> In marker training, when is the marker given for the come command? To me the dog's initial change of direction to come back to the handler is the start of the command being properly followed but until the dog hustles back and sits by the handler the whole command is not complete.


Both are correct .. Though I use an intermediate mark (keep going mark) for initial change of direction and a terminal mark aka 'jackpot' mark for the end position. In teaching it anyways.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> In marker training, when is the marker given for the come command? To me the dog's initial change of direction to come back to the handler is the start of the command being properly followed but until the dog hustles back and sits by the handler the whole command is not complete.


I would have to say it depends on the dog. Training would start with just moving toward you, and incrementally shaped as you continue to the final sit. You start with a baby step, and shape until you have the whole command. I don't think any command is learned in it's entirety the first go. Most have to be "shaped".


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When teaching the recall with markers I randomly mark and reward ANY time in the process. 

When the dog turns or comes off the sit/down/whatever, as the dog is running back, when the dog gets to me.

I want the dog to know that anywhere in the behavior is reward worthy.

I look at it just like heeling.

If you only mark and reward the dog after 50 ft or so then the steps in between loose the value.

Let the dog know that anywhere and any time during the heeling is reward worthy.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think it depends on the stage of training, style of training, age of dog, and what methods or tools you are incorporating in conjunction with your "marker" training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Agreed!

My comment was strictly based on a simple recall. 

If that is solid then it can be adjusted for different venues in dog training. 

Formalize it for sport, make it reliable for a street K9, a voice call off, a whistle call off, whatever but there has to be a basic recall in the beginning.

Teaching it as a game with markers and reward in the beginning will set a great foundation and corrections when needed will go a lot smoother.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

The only problem I've found when people are trying to teach it 'marker' only is rushing the reward mark before the dog has fully understood what the mark means. Or sets themselves and the dog up for failure by not controlling the environmental distractions or adjusting for them. 

Also utilizing a reward mark from a distance you need to have the reward ready either remotely or making sure 100% that the dog knows what the mark means and that it has more value for the dog than anything else out there, which in theory is a feat in itself with all the random distractions out there.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: Geoff's last post
..... dejas voux //lol//

just the other day i started working with an owner on a recall to a front then a guard (between legs) position. dog is highly motivated in non-distraction areas and doing it well

so i showed them how to place a reward at a distance from the dog and raise the bar, rather than the handler always rewarding the dog from hand.
- it's a whole different ballgame for the owner now 
- it also pointed out how the owner was mixing their duration markers with release markers and confusing the dog 

getting a dog to stay focused with a remotely placed reward in a distraction area is not easy, ..... even if the reward is a (high value) bite

i'm still a firm believer that 'not all marker training is created equal'


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with both of you, in particular Rick's last comment about "not all marker training is created equal". 

Marker training is no different then traditional compulsion training in that each and every experienced handler/ trainer will add and subtract what they feel works for them and the individual dog they're working with at the time. 

I doubt any one of us other then green beginners will follow anyone's "style" by the book. 

After all, without those differences we would have no one to have discussions with. :twisted: 

I'm thankful for those differences. :grin: :wink:


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Geoff. I fully fully agree with your stance on distractions and distance.

I have only recently began to dabble with the what seems to me to be the newer mindset of marker training (I.e Ellis) used in the positive realm. That said even compulsion training is a marker right? The word no (or something similar) denotes impending Physical correction if compliance is not gained.

I'm not familiar with back chaining but is the come command a simple example of when that would apply? Teach the sit in front and the turn seperate then bring them together?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Geoff. I fully fully agree with your stance on distractions and distance.
> 
> I have only recently began to dabble with the what seems to me to be the newer mindset of marker training (I.e Ellis) used in the positive realm. That said even compulsion training is a marker right? The word no (or something similar) denotes impending Physical correction if compliance is not gained.
> 
> I'm not familiar with back chaining but is the come command a simple example of when that would apply? Teach the sit in front and the turn seperate then bring them together?



Back chaining is sorta like that but I'll try to make it a bit easier to understand. For example, competition heeling is a common skill that can be taught "backward" easily. Start by teaching the dog to seek eye contact first by a eye contact game or the like, then the position of the heel, then to search for the position, then to hold position, and give eye contact, then add movement, then get it all to work together! You teach each step separately and then put the steps together in reverse order starting with eye contact first as your foundation. 

Yes compulsion training would be considered a marker in the right context with the right timing and the proper context. Goes back to the 4 quadrants of dog training. Which is why Balanced trainers for the most part have better obedience overall than trainers that just do +R or +P as their main focal point. 

Ellis always gets lumped into that mindset that he is always a +R guy which in my opinion he isn't, he is one of the most talented guys out there (both as a teacher of humans and trainer) and he is one that falls into a 'Balanced' category for sure.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Clear enough.

I agree with what you say about Ellis. I don't suscribe to pure positive stuff but having seen markers in bite work and OB thru Ellis, I am trying to use them more. 

To me it takes a realist to be balanced and to know that there will arise times in the dogs life where his actions call for stiff corrections and others where simply withholding the reward will suffice. 

Are you aware of any notable service dog trainers? Out of curiosity I would be interested to see how complex assistance tasks are trained and enforced. I presume it presents the same way where marker timing and placement will correspond with dog level and training progression


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

you could use -R and markers 
without any real "shaping"...

I have seen amazingly fast recalls using markers, and double rewards with 
-R work


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My SAR, CDX, SchIII, HT, TT, CGC dog has never had a physical correction other then initial house behaviors and manners. Never for any competition training. 

He'll 12 in less then two months. 

He was my first dog to do marker training and that's with 50+ yrs of "traditional" correction training behind me before I started markers 12+ yrs ago. 

Would I do it again?

I'll take a dog as far as I can but I believe there can be a time and place for corrections with any dog.

I also believe that starting with markers will lessen the need for later corrections way down because the dog has understood the behavior with reward based training first.

Even in bite work, why would a dog refuse a foose command if he learns that compliance will get him that ultimate reward, the bite?!

IMHO Ellis is top shelf in this regard.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> you could use -R and markers
> without any real "shaping"...
> 
> I have seen amazingly fast recalls using markers, and double rewards with
> -R work


ME has a -R marker. He uses the word nope.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Bob Scott said:


> My SAR, CDX, SchIII, HT, TT, CGC dog has never had a physical correction other then initial house behaviors and manners. Never for any competition training.
> 
> He'll 12 in less then two months.
> 
> ...


Ellis says to introduce pressure not too soon that they don't understand the command, but not too late or they will not be used to pressure/correction at a time when it will just devastate them. He introduces pressure with the leash after the marker training as a way to introduce pressure.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Are you aware of any notable service dog trainers? Out of curiosity I would be interested to see how complex assistance tasks are trained and enforced. I presume it presents the same way where marker timing and placement will correspond with dog level and training progression


I'm not really aware of 'notable' service dog trainers in the big scheme of things. You might want to check out Gary Wilkes by googling him and searching him on youtube. As I know he has lots of experience with SD trainers/training, I've talked to him a lot on the internet and had a chance to do a four day workshop with him this year but had a scheduling conflict with a Ring competition. He is worth it to check out.

As well as Kayce Cpver who is a member here, she as well as countless service dogs has trained capuchin monkeys for spoon feeding paraplegics. She has an interesting way to mark the intermediate mark in training and she has helped me immensely in getting my own head around the use of markers for uber complicated tasks. 

I self trained my female in my avatar as my own service animal. I had a total hip replacement a few years back and leading up to the surgery I trained her for many tasks. Some of which included helping me get undressed and dressed, bringing the wireless phone to me when it rang, picking up anything I dropped, pick up the cane or crutch, turning off/on lights, brace me when I got up out of chair etc etc. 

It helped by having a dog that will try to retrieve anything she will try to carry a bicycle if I ask her to retrieve it, so she is a special dog it isn't as much as me being a good trainer but more about her being a better dog. Like Bob's Thunder all of these tasks were trained totally +R she has seen +P in protection but for service dog tasks none. 

All I used was a laser pointer, ball and a clicker it was easy for her.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeffrey Eggenberger said:


> ME has a -R marker. He uses the word nope.


I am pretty sure we are not talking about the same thing.
I meant -R as the use of a quadrant of Operant Conditioning, not as a description of a marker for unfavorable actions.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> I am pretty sure we are not talking about the same thing.
> I meant -R as the use of a quadrant of Operant Conditioning, not as a description of a marker for unfavorable actions.


Yes, negative reward. Saying nope or no means you don't get a reward and to try another offer.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeffrey Eggenberger said:


> Ellis says to introduce pressure not too soon that they don't understand the command, but not too late or they will not be used to pressure/correction at a time when it will just devastate them. He introduces pressure with the leash after the marker training as a way to introduce pressure.



Agree but I have no problem letting a pup know not to bite god (me). That may be a simple poke with a finger and a no or just a strong no. 

I've never had a problem but then I like a pup that has a bit of grit. 

To many yrs with terrier I guess. :grin:

Keeping my GSD pups from biting me and creating good house manners had absolutely no adverse affect on their bite training.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Bob Scott said:


> Agree but I have no problem letting a pup know not to bite god (me). That may be a simple poke with a finger and a no or just a strong no.
> 
> I've never had a problem but then I like a pup that has a bit of grit.
> 
> ...


Yes, of course. The quote was only in reference to training commands. With a puppy I use a grab with the hand kind of like his/her Mother would to reprimand/correct. I make a bark\growl sound. If you notice puppies interact with their Mother she will correct them much the same way.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeffrey Eggenberger said:


> Yes, of course. The quote was only in reference to training commands. With a puppy I use a grab with the hand kind of like his/her Mother would to reprimand/correct. I make a bark\growl sound. If you notice puppies interact with their Mother she will correct them much the same way.



I find that muzzle grips on the terriers I had would more then likely bring out the devil in the little bassids. 

Other then the Border terriers that is. They can be crushed with to much pressure even as adults. 

Scruff my JRT and you'd think you were holding a runaway buzz saw.

As scrappy as they were my Kerrys responded well to the muzzle grip. 

My GSDs were much more responsive to the muzzle grip or scruff as pups.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Geoff thanks for the suggestions.

Absent going to the point of abuse, I don't see a problem with compulsion- I have simply seen some nice results experimenting with positive marker training when time and situation allows.

As to teaching pups/dogs not to bite handler I think there is a lot of compartmentalization where dogs can be handler sensitive (or made to respect handler) but still excel in aggression/ bite work. That's the reality with my street dog at least


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "Agree but I have no problem letting a pup know not to bite god (me). That may be a simple poke with a finger and a no or just a strong no. “

- if only it was this easy 

with that said; bear with me a minute…this is not meant to be sarcastic. just reality as i see it with many people i work with, and here’s why

in the past few years since the Cesar show has been aired here i get more and more people who have failed at being god, or even being a ‘pack leader’. 
- in short, they said they went thru the same motions but they still can’t control their dog and don’t know why

they have tried the finger bite move, rib poking, done all sorts of "scruffing like momma” and muzzle holding, etc etc

the advice offered above, and most all the advice posted on the WDF is of course common sense and easy to understand
but the problem as i see it is that people really don’t read their dog well and don’t know how much discilpine they need to deliver to the dog to get a proper response from their dog.
- all too often the discipline is less than needed or the timing was off…..or both
- so instead of the dog “getting the memo”, it toughens the dog and conditions the wrong response
- they rinse and repeat … and make it worse…..get frustrated, and eventually look for a trainer

of course no one here has ever had that problem //lol//
but FOR SURE it happens a lot with a WIDE variety of owners

i have NEVER seen a dog that doesn’t require compulsion somewhere along the training process. the hard part is to figure out when to use it and how much to apply. the more stable and balanced the dog, the easier it is to get a satisfactory result. it doesn’t necessarily mean the handler was a good trainer. more like the dog was stable enuff to handle it //LOL//

there was a post awhile back that asked about when you could determine that a dog learned a command and punishment was necessary for non-compliance. nobody said much at that point and the thread kinda died out. too bad, because that, in my opinion, is the whole point of how and when to apply compulsion.

i’m a firm believer that most people either resort to physical compulsion WAY too early in the training process, or they start the whole process with physical compulsion.
- the latter course can be VERY effective in some cases. especially if the dog will need to work through a lot of pressure later in its training. but you need a very stable dog to do this
- as far as starting too early; that’s a no brainer. back up, use more patience and break the behavior into more steps that can be learned conflict free before raising the bar. 
- this is also simple to say and easy to agree with  in the real world it’s rarely that easy 

sorry this has nothing to do with training a recall …. just rambling as usual //LOL//


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with your ramble! :grin:

When watching the dog wisperer show it was usually pretty easy to see who was going to succeed and who would go back to the same old same old with their dog.

I think the vast majority of "pet" owners fall into this category regardless of training method. 

As to recall training I can only say that ever since one of my first dogs was hit and killed by a car in '56 I've had excellent reliability in recalls no matter the method.

Leadership can come naturally, with learning or some just don't get it and never will. 

It's the most important command you can teach a dog IMHO.


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