# How much OB before Herding?



## Jenna Lea (Jul 25, 2010)

As someone who has never done herding but is interested in it, how much basic obedience is generally recommended or expected by trainers before you bring a dog to be evaluated for herding instinct?


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Jenna Lea said:


> As someone who has never done herding but is interested in it, how much basic obedience is generally recommended or expected by trainers before you bring a dog to be evaluated for herding instinct?


wow, I did not know a mastiff had any herding instinct at all to test...that would be interesting to see.
Typically in herding instinct tests there is an experienced handler that administers the test and will manage the dog. I would check with the club that is sponsoring the herding test to find out what they expect of you and your dog.
If it were me, I would have to say a reliable recall would be the most important thing for me if I were testing.
good luck, keep us posted that would be neat to see.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

A firm 'down' is a must which means the dog stops at any point on the field and downs immediately. The terms are easy to remember but dont think that herding is easy as it takes a fluid combination of stock reading by both handler and dog with timing of essence.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

For the Herding Instinct not a whole lot - mostly a recall (they do evaluate on the dog's sensitivity to handler direction but I don't think that matters as much as its interest in sheep and shown instinct). I didn't handle my own dog in the instinct testing either though I understand it happens sometimes.

For going to a trainer, they will most likely feel better if you have basics - a reliable recall and a reliable down, particularly for a large dog. Easier on them and their sheep...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I've instinct tested a lot of dogs--sometimes 30 a day. Rarely does their prior obedience transfer. I always have a long line attached. A few have recalled though. If you have done obedience in drive, then it may have some use or transfer to the stock pen. When we did RWDC, no problem recalling and being in the picture with most of the trained dogs. The younger dogs and puppies, we stepped on the line to catch them up. Ya kinda have to try to get a feel for the dog first for whether you can turn him loose. From there, its intinct and maintaining position to keep the dog moving around his stock. Good stock that orient to the handler and don't panic is imperative. I don't think I've ever asked anyone about the obedience aspect. I'm usually more interested in how they perceive pressure.

If after the test you have a really drivey dog, I can't say enough about how great Balabanov's "The Game" and in motion work are for cross training for herding.


Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

T, is a really reliable "platz" a "MUST"? how about a really reliable "WAIT" in which the dog stops, but doesn't necessarily platz? just stops and waits for direction from handler?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ann, not trying to answer for T but Thunder will do better with a "wait/stand" then a "platz".
He launches off the platz with to much speed and power. That can set the sheep to running again even if they are at the other side of the pen/field.
He comes off his "wait/stand" without all the launch.
I think his size has some to do with that. when he comes off the platz, the rise up from the down seems to give more visual intimidation to the sheep. 
He is less apt to break a platz though.
His favorite platz is in the water trough after training. He has learned something from those spooky little black and white fuzzy dogs. ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ann, 

Like Bob said, I don't make a habit of downing dogs on stock. There are spots in the work I might use a down but it isn't often. When you down the dog and let the sheep run off, the dog launches himself because he knows he is out of control of the stock. He wants to run to catch up. The GSD frame isn't akin to down, up, down, up. My square bouvier is built better for that. My little guys think down is the equivalent to belly up and losing control of the stock. We use a stand/stop. If I say stop, I don't care what position the dog takes. It just means stop motion. Thunder works much better with his stand. But that said, his platz is super cool in motion as well. 

For the beginning dog, I don't care that he has the stop or down. As Bob will tell you, I work their butts off and its all about learning to cover and the handler learning to move in relationship to the dog. After that, then we move on to the mechanics. You have to be careful not to build frustration. I see a lot where the dogs have that super snappy lie down or platz and no in motion control or cover. This was especially true at the Malinois national. I kinda work on the dogs learning to gauge their speed instead of all those lie downs. Again for our type of dog, this just gets you a lot of frustration and with that, usually comes a grip. I've also learned with Thunder, he releases or chanels his drive with movement. Keep him stationary and it just builds. He's not the explode type like my bouv but you will see a grip or two.

I'll be starting a young GSD pup after the fall trials it looks like to add to the two cardigans I have on board. We had to virtually shut down training over the summer with so many days of 95+. My asthma issue wasn't that great either. 

If you are getting your youngster ready, work with Balabanov with the drive and The Game. This is the most valuable work you can do.

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Ann, not trying to answer for T but Thunder will do better with a "wait/stand" then a "platz".
> He launches off the platz with to much speed and power. That can set the sheep to running again even if they are at the other side of the pen/field.
> He comes off his "wait/stand" without all the launch.
> I think his size has some to do with that. when he comes off the platz, the rise up from the down seems to give more visual intimidation to the sheep.
> ...


i almost thought about (well i did, actually) if the explosion from the platz could be from the send-out, but then thought about the re-attack after the B&H from Sch--which makes a bit more sense to me (previous conditioning, etc., etc).

i wonder if the release from th platz looks too much like a "stalk/kill" to the sheep, whereas a forward movement from a "wait/stand" looks less, shall we say, "lethal" .

but then why do BC's always sneaking around on their bellies not get the same reaction? it's gotta be the "sneaking", we all know GSDs do NOT "sneak", right ;-)#-o


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ann,

Moving from the stand is more fluid and the dog's frame of mind is different. The launch out of the down is more prey like. Its a sudden jerky movement with a different intent. 

Part of it is the sneak or what can be called rate. The are tip toeing around that flight/fight bubble/zone around the sheep. Of course my BC had to be the hard ass type. He doesn't sneak either. BCs vary. Some don't have any more eye or stalk than my bouv or the GSDs I've worked in the past. You're right, a GSD isn't going to sneak around the pressure zone/bubble. He is heading straight in to handle it. 

T


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

we were posting at the same time, T! 

i love the way you think--are my 'theories" without merit at all? or is it simply brreed differences (sneaking vs exploding, and why the stock reacts as they do?)?

i'll have to check ebay for the Balabanov DVDs...


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## Jenna Lea (Jul 25, 2010)

Kerry Foose said:


> wow, I did not know a mastiff had any herding instinct at all to test...that would be interesting to see.
> Typically in herding instinct tests there is an experienced handler that administers the test and will manage the dog. I would check with the club that is sponsoring the herding test to find out what they expect of you and your dog.
> If it were me, I would have to say a reliable recall would be the most important thing for me if I were testing.
> good luck, keep us posted that would be neat to see.


Oh I don't plan to try it with my Amstaffs LOL I can only imagine the insanity with the ones I have, though a relative of a couple of my dogs was trained to herd from a very young age and did fantastically at it. Diane Jessup's Pit Bull "Dread" did herding as well. But again, not something I plan to do with the Amstaffs. I had heard conflicting advice: some saying the dog has to have an ironclad recall and some saying no just take in a raw dog and see what happens so I was just wondering although I would think basic OB couldn't hurt even if it might not necessarily help.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

ann schnerre said:


> we were posting at the same time, T!
> 
> i love the way you think--are my 'theories" without merit at all? or is it simply brreed differences (sneaking vs exploding, and why the stock reacts as they do?)?
> 
> i'll have to check ebay for the Balabanov DVDs...


No, I think you are dead on regarding the explosive quality of coming out of the down. Thunder has a LOT of analysis. I don't think any of the Sch training matters in terms of the send out and him linking the two together. He has a high attraction and drive for the stock. You will get nothing but fight with pressure/release old school training but that was true of my dogs that weren't Sch trained. Training or not, the drives can and do come into play. Its why I find the Sch so applicable. What his prior training gave us is the marker foundation and being in his head when he is in drive. As long as you stick to that, he just flows in the work. Any thing you teach him, he performs and he keeps. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jenna Lea said:


> Oh I don't plan to try it with my Amstaffs LOL I can only imagine the insanity with the ones I have, though a relative of a couple of my dogs was trained to herd from a very young age and did fantastically at it. Diane Jessup's Pit Bull "Dread" did herding as well. But again, not something I plan to do with the Amstaffs. I had heard conflicting advice: some saying the dog has to have an ironclad recall and some saying no just take in a raw dog and see what happens so I was just wondering although I would think basic OB couldn't hurt even if it might not necessarily help.



I was gonna say before I instinct tested a club Pit Bull I pulled up the info on Dread. No the basic obedience can't hurt, especially if worked in drive.

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ann,
> 
> Moving from the stand is more fluid and the dog's frame of mind is different. The launch out of the down is more prey like. Its a sudden jerky movement with a different intent. T


ok so i was on the right track, anyway.

i have mike ellis' "the power of playing tug..." dvd--is that comparable with B's?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As to the original question about obedience
One of the things I've seen at trials is "some" obedience dogs are more apt to become mechanical/placement dogs. 
To much pressure from the handler and the dog starts to focus to much on that handler and that can shut down the dog's working instincts.
Great for AKC competition but not for a real working dog. This is where the AHBA is more realistic in it's trials. The judges look at the DOG'S ability as much as handler control. AKC is more about handler control.
This is the reason T talks about the Balabanov training. The dog is being trained in drive. To much of the wrong obedience will take the drive down.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think Ellis is better at explaining the how and why of what he's doing.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

ann schnerre said:


> ok so i was on the right track, anyway.
> 
> i have mike ellis'  "the power of playing tug..." dvd--is that comparable with B's?


Crap, Bob loaned me one and I made a note that I would buy it when I get the GSD puppy, but I can't remember which. If I remember correctly, it focused more on presentation of he tug and stablizing it for the out but not as much as Balabanov with the dog performing in drive for the bite. Bob, help me out. Do you think Ellis gives you the same as "The Game?" Incidentally, Bob worked Thunder with the Balabanov game and his in motion work was to die for on the stock.

My thoughts on my next pup is to really work with this as foundation work for the herding.


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"The Game" probably goes into a bit more of the ob stuff.

:-k :-k  Hey T, I've seen two refferences to "my new GSD puppy" .
What am I missing here? :lol::lol::lol:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, I think you are dead on regarding the explosive quality of coming out of the down. Thunder has a LOT of analysis. I don't think any of the Sch training matters in terms of the send out and him linking the two together. He has a high attraction and drive for the stock. You will get nothing but fight with pressure/release old school training but that was true of my dogs that weren't Sch trained. Training or not, the drives can and do come into play. Its why I find the Sch so applicable. What his prior training gave us is the marker foundation and being in his head when he is in drive. As long as you stick to that, he just flows in the work. Any thing you teach him, he performs and he keeps.
> 
> T


ok, i just oftentimes "overthink" stuff, but in this case, from a "prey" animals POV it just seemed like seeing a "predator" exploding from a platz would get even ME wanting to run 

now, when Ikon "herds" the 4 horses here (and his training is, shall we say, ummm, "lacking"-but he has a really good recall, lol ), he both "leads" them where he wants them to be by yelling at the dominant horse and thereby teasing him into following (ie, trying to strike Ikon) Ike where Ike wants him to be, and then "herds" the other 3--once he manipulates the lead horse, he gathers the other 3 with a combination of "yelling" to get them coming forward and yelling from behind. 

it's a fascinating process to watch. i do get a bit paranoid that Ike'll transfer the 'tail-grip" he's learned with the horses (keeps them from kicking his head off) to cattle; don't think it'll work so well there, lol. and with sheep--a "tail-grip"???? hahaha....(kinda)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

and yeah, T--what/who is this GSD puppy????????


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Local woman. She had another one that helped her with her horses and just picked up on what she needed. She'd like to train this one. Told her I wasn't going near any horses but would be glad to work with the pup with sheep or goats. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> "The Game" probably goes into a bit more of the ob stuff.
> 
> :-k :-k  Hey T, I've seen two refferences to "my new GSD puppy" .
> What am I missing here? :lol::lol::lol:


Hahahaha, now see there. I did not say it was MINE. Besides if I were looking at a puppy, you'd be the first to know so you can look at them too.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

ann schnerre said:


> ok, i just oftentimes "overthink" stuff, but in this case, from a "prey" animals POV it just seemed like seeing a "predator" exploding from a platz would get even ME wanting to run
> 
> now, when Ikon "herds" the 4 horses here (and his training is, shall we say, ummm, "lacking"-but he has a really good recall, lol ), he both "leads" them where he wants them to be by yelling at the dominant horse and thereby teasing him into following (ie, trying to strike Ikon) Ike where Ike wants him to be, and then "herds" the other 3--once he manipulates the lead horse, he gathers the other 3 with a combination of "yelling" to get them coming forward and yelling from behind.
> 
> it's a fascinating process to watch. i do get a bit paranoid that Ike'll transfer the 'tail-grip" he's learned with the horses (keeps them from kicking his head off) to cattle; don't think it'll work so well there, lol. and with sheep--a "tail-grip"???? hahaha....(kinda)


Uhhhhhh, horses are higher risk than cattle. You are a braver woman than I.

Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I didn't even have a reliable "sit" when I started with my dog, instead developed obedience as we went along. But if the dog is interested in the work, finds it rewarding, I'd suppose that'd make the question similar to asking "How much OB before rewarding with toy" or "How much OB before feeding".


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## Jenna Lea (Jul 25, 2010)

Interesting responses, thanks all!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jenna Lea said:


> As someone who has never done herding but is interested in it, how much basic obedience is generally recommended or expected by trainers before you bring a dog to be evaluated for herding instinct?


 It all depends upon the trainer or clinic. The handler is expected to have a dog under control, the dog is expected to respond to the handler. After that...it becomes the game of can or can't. Can't make moon pies from mud and a dog with no skills will not do well.

Then you have true use folks and competition folks, like air brushed "working" waterfowl decoys and utility products! What do you want to do and how willing are you to make life changes? If it works out...it's fun!


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## Jenna Lea (Jul 25, 2010)

Thanks Howard, I have a young Mal that I thought I might take in the Spring to the herding folks in my club and get evaluated. I would be more interested in doing this just for competition not real life utility as I don't live on a farm. I obviously have several months before Spring to be working in OB I was just trying to reconcile some of the conflicting info I've heard from folks that do herding over the years.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Working horses with one dog is a pia. 
As a kid I hunted on a farm that had 3-4 collies. The did a great job with the milk cows, the bull and sheep. When it came to the horse he just flat outran any one dog. 2-3 could contain him.

Always ready to look at puppies! :-D:-D:-D


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Working horses is definitely a challenge. I was given a 1 year old border collie/belgian sheep dog cross while I was managing a horse farm. She went with me everywhere on the quad. When we ran the horses up to the north forty (literally) in the summer, she helped tremendously. We round them up for inspection every day. When a boarder wanted their horse, she was instrumental in helping to locate it and bring it to me for haltering and she helped to drive it back down too...pretty impressive actually now that I think about it.
She is a brave and tenacious critter,she would work horses all day but does not have the time of day for sheep Interestingly.
I think that because she had so much obedience on her that is how we were able to get the job done. At the time I had zero experience with herding handling and neither did she. We later took some lessons and learned more of course, then in came my corgi Wink..and it was all over for her, lol.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> She is a brave and tenacious critter,she would work horses all day but does not have the time of day for sheep


OT but there's two or three SV's in this area who work on a cow farm but who will fail even the herding instinct test because they won't pay any attention to sheep .

I think in Sweden, they do the vallhund HIT on cows sometimes since they're supposed to be cattle herders. Not sure about this though. Or if I would let my guy in on cows the first time he was ever around stock...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

If you're into challenges, get your dog to herd a playground full of first graders!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika Friberg said:


> OT but there's two or three SV's in this area who work on a cow farm but who will fail even the herding instinct test because they won't pay any attention to sheep .
> 
> I think in Sweden, they do the vallhund HIT on cows sometimes since they're supposed to be cattle herders. Not sure about this though. Or if I would let my guy in on cows the first time he was ever around stock...


 
My Khaiba is one of those dogs. He saw cattle as stock and maybe goats---not so much sheep and definitely not ducks. He's of an age now where I need to take him out to see if he has what it takes on the cows. 

As for the playground, that's not even funny. One of mine bet not see a kid as something to herd.

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i've heard that herding cats can bee quite a challenge, lol. 

the thing about Ike is, we don't herd the horses "formally"--this is just something he does completely (and figured out to this extent) on his own...just an interesting behavior. haven't exposed him to anything else as far as stock goes yet. i want to get some goats, but....that stupid "$$" deal keeps stopping me


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Quite frankly, I wouldn't let him work the horses. One good kick and he's a goner. The fact that he grabs tails is scary.

Terrasita


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Horses are taboo at my place also.
l go to the trouble of ruling out horses as stock as early as l can.
When you are working stock on steep country you dont want a dog paying any attention to your horse or you could end up in a world of hurt. And from the dogs point of view , l have seen too many dogs hurt or killed by a flashing horse kick or strike.
Tony


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

there is that, T. and i've had enough "goners" in the past 4 years. 

so: training opportunity. beyond taking him out on the longline and working on the "wait", what do you suggest for a "cease and desist" command? "out"? is there a specific command used in herding for this?

it would also be a proofing opp for the recall, etc., etc. if this needs a new thread i'll ask bob to move it for me...

and thaks for your comment, tony--i was actually wondering what you've been up to as i was typing the above


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The traditional herder's command for job is done is "that'll do." "Out" is generally used for the dog to increase his distance away from the stock. For this we use "move off" for Thunder and I have a "get off" command. If you are going to train him in protection stuff, I'd come up with different commands. Other than that, you can use any word you want as a call off. I work with a stop in motion. If I say "that'll do" I'm either unhooking them to flank them or "that'll do, here" recall.

T


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Gday Ann , just been busy handling stock, we have had a good season finally and with feed available have been getting in new stock to take advantage of it.
A lot of the topics are outside my comfort zone also !

As T said you can use any words that fit with you and dont have a cross meaning to your dog.
However, l would not use a call off or that'll do to get your dog away from horses . This indirectly implies he is coming off "work" and that would make it seem OK to do in the first place, l would just go with whatever your version of "No" is at first , because he needs to understand it is a "definitely dont do that " situation
regards Tony


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

hey tony--glad to hear you're having a good season! got some good rain, did you? we had the wettest summer here in YEARS--i've never seen the pasture looking as good as it did in August. lots of feed.

you make a GREAT point--and i have just the perfect word for it too: "uh-uh"--he knows that means he's to STOP whatever he's doing. or else, lol


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Yes Ann , plenty of soaking rain, we dont get that much of it here.
Good to have more feed than the stock can handle for a change. Our river is flowing and dams are full of water. Everything is actually believing we will have a Spring for a change. The cattle are in shock over actual green grass, and l can put off fence repair for a while , l cant see them !!!
Tony


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