# Which would you rather have?



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Which would you rather have as part of your club?
A certified trial helper
A helper who is not certified but knows how to read dogs and bring them up


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

One who can read and train dogs over a trial only helper everytime


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Why not a certified trial helper that knows how to read dogs? Anyway, how does a helper become certified and NOT know how to read dogs?


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Easier to get a smart helper certified than teach a certified to train.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

darryl theres plenty of people that get certified and dont know how to read a dog. Not saying that all trial helpers dont know how though. And for this post it can only be one or the other. :-$


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Why not a certified trial helper that knows how to read dogs? Anyway, how does a helper become certified and NOT know how to read dogs?



The job of the trial helper is to challenge the dog in the prescribed
way so the judge can evaluate him. Reading a dog and adapting
would be a form of discrimination.

Yes, in the catch the helper needs to see the dog's trajectory
and present the sleeve properly.

But beyond this reading the dog and adapting is contrary to his
responsibility.

There is all the difference in the world between the trial helper and
the training helper, although many man can do both very well.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

That's a good explanation. But, I would have guessed (maybe incorrectly) that most helpers begin in training, and advance to trialing.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Im just a traning helper, I like to train dogs and se them evolve from Green to the high clases. I can do the test If I want to "been decoying for 4 years" but I realy downt se the point. I train alott if difrent dogs in difrent stages, I cose who I want to train with and If I downt feel like traning I do not nead to, this always make dog traning Fun for me

I know In the begining I wanted to be a Trail helper, but its only doing the same stuff al the way. No changes, no reeding, just safe catshes and when I hade traind dogs long egnuf so that I culd do that It was not Fun to just do that  

I think its greate that some peopel want to do that so ther still is somone to trail on  but to me its nicer not to go upp at 5 in the morning and drive 50 mile one way for no pay to catsh dogs for peopel you downt know  
and on topp of that peopel critecise decoys almost everytime


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Ps. I do not decoy Ring. I think that that wuld be more Fun to be à trail decoy in becaus ther you trye to fool the dog and ther is more acrobatics  and dog reeding


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Why not a certified trial helper that knows how to read dogs? Anyway, how does a helper become certified and NOT know how to read dogs?


Daryl very excellent point and THANK YOU!
Certified for what venues as well? Who does the training? Testing in some sports also requires book knowledge, a written test with a high score across the board, this goes along with the hands on skills. Reading dogs is only part of the TOTAL package.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think it depends on the sport.

I would guess that FR trial decoys can "read" dogs quite well, if they are good decoys. They are there to find holes in the dogs and their training, can't do that very well if you cant read dogs...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> Which would you rather have as part of your club?
> A certified trial helper
> A helper who is not certified but knows how to read dogs and bring them up


In my opinion, for a club, better to have a training helper who knows how to read dogs and bring them up. It's great when a certified trial helper can do both, but the two don't necessarily go hand in hand, and you do need both. There is a big difference between what a helper does when working to assist the training of a dog (from puppy rag work to green dog to adult trained and beyond) and what a trial helper does.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The point is mute! There are far too many more important variables here than “this or that.” For a PPD club, the standards are as different as those for LE. The certification needs in the K-9 venues of PSA, SDA, SCH, or FR aren’t the same. Therefore the reasoning for testing must be to help folks qualify for the position that they will be working down the road. 

If certifications are meaningless, why do law enforcement folks certify their dogs and do it under certified trainers? Why offer higher education after high school? All horses should win the Kentucky Derby…all dogs should get a best in show position.

IMO, I want a decoy/helper who will safely work my dog without falling on it, stepping on its feet or poking its eyes with stick hits. I don’t want neck or spine injuries either. Helpers/decoys should understand the drives which a puppy or dog are showcasing, they should test only after training a dog. 

The more knowledge, skill, certifications, clinics, qualifications, and the ability to read dogs, and the past skills in working of a variety of dogs the person has…these are what make the TD in my book. 

You wouldn’t go to a surgeon who passed the boards by one point; why have a “Bubba” work and train your dog? You can’t scuff off testing for good intentions…


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Hell, I'd just like to have a helper of any kind!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Actually, in schH, there is no official classification/certification for a training helper, but good ones are worth their weight in gold and while many do certify for helper work in trials, many of them have no interest or intention of ever working trials which is why they don't bother getting certified for trials. 

In fact the USA Helper Program booklet goes out of it's way to state:
"To meet the Helper Program objective of “standardized” education, *the Helper Program Curriculum does not include instruction to develop a Helper's knowledge as a Training Helper, since the philosophies of how to train dogs in protection vary drastically, and thus are not "standardized"*

Right off the top of my head I can think of a number of excellent training helpers that are either not certified at all, or are certified only at trial or regional level, who I trust 100%, and am always very grateful to have work my dogs any time. Truth be told there's also someone qualified to work national trials who I wouldn't let anywhere near any of my dogs regardless of trial or training situation.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Training helper for me is the most important. With his help I will train my dog to handle any level of helper on trial day.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

So this certified trial helper lacks a sufficient amount of traininer helping experience, or you just don't approve or trust in their ability? I've attended a couple helper certification seminars, but I think everyone paticipating had a reasonable level of training experience prior to that. Not like going to colledge without getting through grade school first.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> So this certified trial helper lacks a sufficient amount of traininer helping experience, or you just don't approve or trust in their ability? I've attended a couple helper certification seminars, but I think everyone paticipating had a reasonable level of training experience prior to that. Not like going to colledge without getting through grade school first.


Generally it's not the newly certified guys who work the young, inexperienced dogs, the new guys get to be trained by the dogs who wear the old hats, because they need to get a lot more experience under their belts before they can consider themselves to be good training helpers.

If you are asking about the guy I wouldn't let work my dogs, it's because I think he's a shitty helper, and that's all I'm going to say about him.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> So this certified trial helper lacks a sufficient amount of traininer helping experience, or you just don't approve or trust in their ability? I've attended a couple helper certification seminars, but I think everyone paticipating had a reasonable level of training experience prior to that. Not like going to colledge without getting through grade school first.



Daryl, I took a guy from working his first dog to USCA certified helper in less than a month.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

The question was which would you rather have for your club, and my answer would most definitely be a good training helper for our Schutzhund club. 

I just wanted to point out USCA doesn't certify anyone. They classify trial helpers. 

Laura


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Why not a certified trial helper that knows how to read dogs? Anyway, how does a helper become certified and NOT know how to read dogs?



Daryl

EASY, A trial helper has to be athletic and consistent and follow the judges direction. A training decoy has to know how to react to the dog. When to put on pressure and when not to.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I just wanted to point out USCA doesn't certify anyone. They classify trial helpers.
> Laura



Hi Laura,

That's too bad. I know a lot of people in UScA that I think are certifiable and I'm not just talking about decoys


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> The question was which would you rather have for your club, and my answer would most definitely be a good training helper for our Schutzhund club.
> 
> I just wanted to point out USCA doesn't certify anyone. They classify trial helpers.
> 
> Laura



Daryl, I took a guy from working his first dog to USCA classification helper in less than a month.

Ahhh....that does make a big difference.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Daryl, I took a guy from working his first dog to USCA classification helper in less than a month.
> 
> Ahhh....that does make a big difference.


:lol:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

What do you mean 'classify'?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/documents/USCA_HELPER_PROGRAM _80.pdf

USCA HELPER CLASSIFICATIONS

Entry Level

Basic Level 

Club Level

Regional Level

National Level 

Teaching Helper


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I want Michelle Jenneke as my club decoy (any club) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMgmYutL9W0


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Why not a certified trial helper that knows how to read dogs? Anyway, how does a helper become certified and NOT know how to read dogs?


Amen!!


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## Megan Bell (Apr 20, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Right off the top of my head I can think of a number of excellent training helpers that are either not certified at all, or are certified only at trial or regional level, who I trust 100%, and am always very grateful to have work my dogs any time. Truth be told there's also someone qualified to work national trials who I wouldn't let anywhere near any of my dogs regardless of trial or training situation.


I agree with this 100%. It makes me think why the good helpers choose not to qualify for national events. I know my training helper used to do plenty of nationals, yet everytime he went to them people would criticize and complain that he was too "tough" on the dogs. This just seems to be the way schutzhund has gone. No reason a good tough helper should want to work a national event when they are going to get scrutinized.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Megan Bell said:


> I agree with this 100%. It makes me think why the good helpers choose not to qualify for national events. I know my training helper used to do plenty of nationals, yet everytime he went to them people would criticize and complain that he was too "tough" on the dogs. This just seems to be the way schutzhund has gone. No reason a good tough helper should want to work a national event when they are going to get scrutinized.


I'm sure for some that's true, and for others it's simply a matter of where their interests lie. Many good helpers do trial work, but some prefer to concentrate only on training dogs.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I want Michelle Jenneke as my club decoy (any club)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMgmYutL9W0


Yes, shes got a great smile. :lol:


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

A good training decoy any day of the week.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Okay...club or trial. PSA, SDA, Mondio, LE, and Schutzhund all have THEIR standards for becoming decoys/helpers in those venues. I know folks in some of each and if they had no ability to read and work dogs, if they caught dogs on the sleeve and the dog was swung, jammed, or the person fell all over them...what then?

What total value is put on a person's higher interest, education, and ability to work dogs? You can be good...but if your "skills" aren't safe, would you still want them working YOUR dog? A safe person is a good decoy reguardless of venue!


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Howard that is not the question. The question was very simple a certified trial helper or a helper who can read dogs.Though I would venture to say that if someone has trained long enough to be able to read and build a dog up, they probably know how to catch them properly.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

sam wilks said:


> ...I would venture to say that if someone has trained long enough to be able to read and build a dog up, they probably know how to catch them properly.


So then it might be safe to conclude that the old saying, "Practice makes perfect" is ok with you?

I disagree with your point and that saying. All you have done is generated a perfect* imperfect* practice! PERFECT PRACTICE, MAKES PERFECT...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Okay...club or trial. PSA, SDA, Mondio, LE, and Schutzhund all have THEIR standards for becoming decoys/helpers in those venues. I know folks in some of each and if they had no ability to read and work dogs, if they caught dogs on the sleeve and the dog was swung, jammed, or the person fell all over them...what then?
> 
> What total value is put on a person's higher interest, education, and ability to work dogs? You can be good...but if your "skills" aren't safe, would you still want them working YOUR dog? A safe person is a good decoy reguardless of venue!


Hi Howard: I'm sorry, I'm missing your point, it's going right over my head!! I think everyone would agree they only want helpers who know how to catch dogs safely, no matter whether it's a training helper or a trial helper, but the fact that someone does not hold a classification to be a trial helper has no bearing on whether or not they can catch dogs safely.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> Howard that is not the question. The question was very simple a certified trial helper or a helper who can read dogs.Though I would venture to say that if someone has trained long enough to be able to read and build a dog up, they probably know how to catch them properly.


I disagree. The mechanics of proper decoy work of being technically correct and safe for all possible are hard and they are not something that everybody has. Otherwise I wouldn't have to drive 4 hours one way to go work with mine. I don't mind doing pups and young dogs, but no way I'm going to take 50 yard courage test on an adult dog. Anybody can put on a sleeve or suit and be a tackling dummy. True decoy work is an art form and I don't think it's something you just pick up along the way without really becoming a student of the sport.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

If I went to a club and found they were letting their inexperienced, newbie helper(s) work the young dogs/older pups, unless that helper was incredibly talented, I'd take that as a big red flag warning of the clubs bad judgement skills and/or sign of their own inexperience and pass that club on by. There are worse things than not working a young dog/older pup.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I would be happy to have some one just interested in dogs and becomeing a decoy. That would be nice cuz I have no decoy.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Anyway, how does a helper become certified and NOT know how to read dogs?


Umm.. extremely easily, actually! :roll:


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Right off the top of my head I can think of a number of excellent training helpers that are either not certified at all, or are certified only at trial or regional level, who I trust 100%, and am always very grateful to have work my dogs any time. Truth be told there's also someone qualified to work national trials who I wouldn't let anywhere near any of my dogs regardless of trial or training situation.


Amen!


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Howard WTF are you talking about. The point Im trying to make is simple. Some people think that just cause they are a certified decoy in a sport they are gods gift to dog training. They fail to realize that there is more to dogs than just catching them. When the time comes they actually need to train a dog they either dont know what they are doing and either get humbled or screw a dog(s) up cause they cant put their pride aside. I posted this to prove a point to someone thats all!


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

It was pretty interesting at Dogstock in June, watching different helpers working a lot of different dogs in one place so you could compare their styles and get an idea of their skills. Certified or not, it gives you an idea of who you'd want to train with, given a choice.


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