# SchH vs. PSA vs. Ring vs. KNPV vs. etc.



## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Questions, comments, concerns?
How does everyone feel about each?
Pros and Cons of each?
etc?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Oh Patrick. that is one huge question. I was thinking of how I could answwer and I just stopped.

I think it all depends on what you have available to you. Here in the South ( for right now ) the best bet is schutzhund unless you can find a PPD training group. The others are out of our range in Ga and SC. I am wanting to get Mondio or FR going at our place and maybe after the Gathering and we know more about both sports, we can get something going. I think that we are in a prime location for any of the sports you have listed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would think that all and any of them are dependent on the club you train with!


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

In our area, we are limited as to what is available. SchH & PSA. I would love to explore Ring Sports but no clubs around here train in it. We work with what we've got to work with. I prefer PSA but not knocking SchH. Pickins are slim around here as to what is avail and people wanting to decoy are few and far between!

KNPV? Would be cool if it were in the US but it isnt.


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

PSA is defiantly the most realistic.


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## Nichole Mason (Mar 11, 2010)

I think PSA is more our speed vs SchH. We may ahve to travel a bit but I think that comes with dedication to the sport and dog. No offense SchH seems to take a little longer to even get started in. From what i've seen in our area. 

Question: Do people who look for working pups consider PSA as the same caliber as SchH? Is holding a PSA Title worthy enough to mention?


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Well yes psa is realistic to some sense but the obedience is by far unrealistic and I don't see any of it truly being used in most cases especially for a police dog. The pressure in each sport I would say are about equal you have decoys in each sport that know what they are doing just like you have the novice people who are new to it as well. Each of them apply pressure in different areas. I would say schutzhund is stressfull because of the in drive, precision and focused obedience and the precision tracking. French ring the pressure is applied through the man using tools and manipulation through esquives, etc. and other control exercises not to mention stamina because the ring sports are held straight through. Mondio the pressure comes from the man and environment as well as the control and stamina. KNPV I have limited experience watching etc so couldn't tell ya but I understand that it is extremely difficult because the intensity of each of the exercises, the stamina that is needed, the physical strength and the strong nerve. I believe each of them has strengths and weaknesses to it and it is great to see dogs and handlers from each venue. I appreciate each sport and what they have to offer to proving dogs but I truly believe most people get involved because they have specific desires, they obviously want their dog to succeed so matching them to the best fit sport would usually be ideal and of course accessibility. No use in training for something such as KNPV (of course many of us do similate the exercises but not with technique and precision because we know there is no use without clubs or competitions here in the u.s. and even the inability to travel to compete with u.s. dogs) also you aren't going to join a sch. club and train sch. if you primarily have goals set to title in mondio because that is what is local and feesible to you. I think overall great topic and many of us are still trying to learn and differentiate each strengths. I am still undecided in a favorite!


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

I have to disagree here on the realism of the ob in PSA. At it's foundation it's sit,stay,come,down and heel with distractions. Of course there are variations and twists also with these commands, but isn't that the basis of all ob? It's just asked of the dog to perform with competing motivators, (bad guy, balls, sleeves, chairs etc. In most cases things that very well could be seen in a typicall day in most peoples worlds. 


Darryl


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## Hilde Van Durme (Feb 9, 2010)

I am in favour of PSA because :

PSA dogs are confortable in all surroundings, in all situations but thats how they are trained. As much different terrains and situations as possible, a lot of distraction used in ob and in bitework.
I love doing it with my dogs.

Since there is no club here, I train my dogs on my own but enrolled in the French Ring club who is available here and I must say. French Ring is a nice program and it gives me the opportunity to train in a club with other members.

Since my dogs have all the basic of PSA its not that hard to enroll in a different program, just a question mostly for me to learn the program, the dog knows what to do since in PSA almost everything is covered.

I am not comparing PSA, French Ring, Belgian Ring, Mondio with shutzhund and IPO because with these two sports its really about absolute perfection on every excercise on the field so in my opinion they lay in a total different leage and are not comparable.

KNPV is very difficult and you need a very tough dog to do it. I have no experience with it neither have the dogs for it or otherwise said, I never let one of my dogs tested for KNPV so I don't really know.


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## Nichole Mason (Mar 11, 2010)

I think we are chosing PSA becuase its is fun, and for us to use "real life scenerios," becuase my husband deploys ALOT. And I know if Im asleep ym gun is asleep but a dog truly is never asleep. It really peace of mind I guess. 

I agree that one sport can not be truly compared to the other. 

Thanks for everyones input. This is a great topic!


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I believe the BH in schutzhund is the best entry level requirement for protection sports because it challenges the handler to learn how to train a dog in drive and has a high level of expectation if the handler and dog try to achieve their best. I also think the tracking in schutzhund, while tedious and more of an obedience exercise than a test of a dog's drive to search for a "bad guy" teaches handlers a lot about their dogs and their handling skills. For me, the downside of schutzhund is that way to much time is put into refining basic protection exercises such as the B&H and blind searches, with the protection work being way too much obedience oriented and not much of a test of the dogs' nerves and courage due to the protection scenarios being so patterned with little environmental stressors. For all the time required to train a dog to a high level of scutzhund, I think many other challenges could be presented to the dogs in the protection work and PSA is a much better alternative. I think ring sports provide strong challenges, but as mentioned, the opportunities are lacking. KNPV has a unique culture do to the control that can be maintained with the smaller number of participants. Top level KNPV dogs are among the best prospects for police work which is probably the highest criteria for true working ability within the protection sports. However, we have heard from Dick, Selena and others that the sport is being watered down. 
For me, the bottom line is being able to recognize when you have an exceptional dog. Then you need to be an exceptional handler and have exceptional decoys. When you have all those ingredients, the sport probably doesn't matter that much, especially in terms of choosing dogs for breeding. I would also say that with schutzhund especially, you need to test beyond the sport in looking for top breeding prospects, whereas the other sports mentioned do a better job at identifying nerve issues, which IMO, plague the working breeds. That is not to say that most dogs competing are have major nerve problems. They might have 90% of the package of a top working dog, but the other 10% doesn't get tested in some of the sports such as schutzhund and these dogs get their titles and are bred. A dog can have excellent prey drive, super grips, great physical ability, but fall apart on slick floors, or when presented with other environmental stressors that some sports, schutzhund in particular, don't test for. I think the downside of the non-schutzhund sports is that the level of expectation in nonprotection obedience is lower and I find that disappointing. Although PSA does really challenge a dog in the protection obedience.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I believe the BH in schutzhund is the best entry level requirement for protection sports because it challenges the handler to learn how to train a dog in drive and has a high level of expectation if the handler and dog try to achieve their best. I also think the tracking in schutzhund, while tedious and more of an obedience exercise than a test of a dog's drive to search for a "bad guy" teaches handlers a lot about their dogs and their handling skills. For me, the downside of schutzhund is that way to much time is put into refining basic protection exercises such as the B&H and blind searches, with the protection work being way too much obedience oriented and not much of a test of the dogs' nerves and courage due to the protection scenarios being so patterned with little environmental stressors. For all the time required to train a dog to a high level of scutzhund, I think many other challenges could be presented to the dogs in the protection work and PSA is a much better alternative. I think ring sports provide strong challenges, but as mentioned, the opportunities are lacking. KNPV has a unique culture do to the control that can be maintained with the smaller number of participants. Top level KNPV dogs are among the best prospects for police work which is probably the highest criteria for true working ability within the protection sports. However, we have heard from Dick, Selena and others that the sport is being watered down.
> For me, the bottom line is being able to recognize when you have an exceptional dog. Then you need to be an exceptional handler and have exceptional decoys. When you have all those ingredients, the sport probably doesn't matter that much, especially in terms of choosing dogs for breeding. I would also say that with schutzhund especially, you need to test beyond the sport in looking for top breeding prospects, whereas the other sports mentioned do a better job at identifying nerve issues, which IMO, plague the working breeds. That is not to say that most dogs competing are have major nerve problems. They might have 90% of the package of a top working dog, but the other 10% doesn't get tested in some of the sports such as schutzhund and these dogs get their titles and are bred. A dog can have excellent prey drive, super grips, great physical ability, but fall apart on slick floors, or when presented with other environmental stressors that some sports, schutzhund in particular, don't test for. I think the downside of the non-schutzhund sports is that the level of expectation in nonprotection obedience is lower and I find that disappointing. Although PSA does really challenge a dog in the protection obedience.


Brother Chip, you must be my twin cuz you took the words out of my mind.(-:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am too old to read that much stuff that close together. Damn.


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Patrick Salerno said:


> Questions, comments, concerns?
> How does everyone feel about each?
> Pros and Cons of each?
> etc?


Of course it depends a lot on what we HAVE - I mean what IS available.

But if we are lucky enough and there is a choice - then we should try and see what is more appropriate for this very dog, I think. From the very first training I saw that Erko would be much happier in a ring sport but continued training him - or better, trying to train - in Schutzhund, only because most people do... It was a waste of time&money. The dog didn't want to bark at the helper - we taught him, he didn't want the sleeve, he preferred the helper's chest - we said No! You'll get nothing but the sleeve!:x 

Last Schutzhund seminar was the limit! The dog looked miserable barking at Labik, but at the end, when Labik pressed him more, gave him more challenge - the dog just refused to "out":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgDieTNnNIQ

Now everyone is happy. Erko is enjoying training in Mondioring, loves his training decoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwUufUONTR0

The dog even helps his training decoy to teach a novice decoy!:grin: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Q4KZWcQd4 

The novice doesn't feel yet how to give enough challenge to this dog "from inside", "from the heart".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6lwFQadBbU

I'm so sorry - I should have started all this long ago...


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Olga Sukonnikova said:


> Of course it depends a lot on what we HAVE - I mean what IS available.
> 
> But if we are lucky enough and there is a choice - then we should try and see what is more appropriate for this very dog, I think. From the very first training I saw that Erko would be much happier in a ring sport but continued training him - or better, trying to train - in Schutzhund, only because most people do... It was a waste of time&money. The dog didn't want to bark at the helper - we taught him, he didn't want the sleeve, he preferred the helper's chest - we said No! You'll get nothing but the sleeve!:x
> 
> ...


 
Beautiful!!! The dog looks very happy! Great job!


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Thank you very much, Patrick!


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

Olga Sukonnikova said:


> Thank you very much, Patrick!


You are very welcome! I wish everyone was as open minded and willing to dip into other protection sports, even if its only to watch.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

If they were religions.

SchH would be the Christians. The most powerful in structure....But is starting to lack some crediability because of the people who run it. The people in charge have lengthy discussions on what thier book really says....But no one really ever puts into clear cut terms. Just when you think you understand you go to mass and the man in charge says something different.

PSA would be the Sciencetologists--A few people making a whole lotta noise. But who the hell knows what they are talking about.

Ring--Islam, people true to thier convictions. But if you do not believe as they do your an infidel and literally destroying working dogs by particpating in inferior sports.

KNPV- The Bhuddists. They do not engage in much argument, but most people admire what they are doing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> If they were religions.
> 
> SchH would be the Christians. The most powerful in structure....But is starting to lack some crediability because of the people who run it. The people in charge have lengthy discussions on what thier book really says....But no one really ever puts into clear cut terms. Just when you think you understand you go to mass and the man in charge says something different.
> 
> ...



DAMN! :-k That made sense! :lol:


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## Patrick Salerno (Apr 6, 2009)

James Downey said:


> If they were religions.
> 
> SchH would be the Christians. The most powerful in structure....But is starting to lack some crediability because of the people who run it. The people in charge have lengthy discussions on what thier book really says....But no one really ever puts into clear cut terms. Just when you think you understand you go to mass and the man in charge says something different.
> 
> ...


Ineresting! Please give some specific examples of each for the rest of us to better understand your argument.


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