# What "Offbreed(s)" Are Most Likely for a "Comeback?"



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Maybe not the right terms, however I suspect most would know what I mean. Which breeds, either non-traditional or traditional-but-not-a-Malinois/Dutch-Shepherd/German-Shepherd seems most likely to make a comeback or develop into a viable option for a working dog? Granted, there are noted good-to-great individual dogs or breeders of various breeds, however generally speaking most will lament how breed _________ is not like they were in the good old days and how hard it is to find a good working Dobermann/Rottweiler/Airedale/Boxer/etc., or even a good German Shepherd.

On the contrary, you'll see reports of a great individual dog/breeder, or about Tim Welch and his Beauceron Avatar hitting FRIII, Leri Hanson getting her APBT Cassie to FRIII, Butch Henderson competing at national and world-level compatitions with Dobermanns and Bouvier.

Just wondering what, if anything, you think might make a "comeback" and be seen as a viable high-level breed again (or develop into one) the way most see the Malinois, or the way they saw the traditional K9 breeds back in the olden days?

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Maybe not the right terms, however I suspect most would know what I mean. Which breeds, either non-traditional or traditional-but-not-a-Malinois/Dutch-Shepherd/German-Shepherd seems most likely to make a comeback or develop into a viable option for a working dog? Granted, there are noted good-to-great individual dogs or breeders of various breeds, however generally speaking most will lament how breed _________ is not like they were in the good old days and how hard it is to find a good working Dobermann/Rottweiler/Airedale/Boxer/etc., or even a good German Shepherd.
> 
> On the contrary, you'll see reports of a great individual dog/breeder, or about Tim Welch and his Beauceron Avatar hitting FRIII, Leri Hanson getting her APBT Cassie to FRIII, Butch Henderson competing at national and world-level compatitions with Dobermanns and Bouvier.
> 
> ...


A working dog in what capacity? what function? that is a wide net to cast...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> A working dog in what capacity? what function? that is a wide net to cast...


Well, that was kind of intentional. 

Let's say to be functional (whatever that means to you) in Police, security, sport, protection, etc. on a fairly consistent basis. If you want, you can limit it to venues that function in bitework/protection, since you could go real wide and open it up to hunting/detection/SAR/etc. Which might be interesting (so if one is so inclined, go nuts), but might also be a bit broad.

-Cheers


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

With the Dobermann the chalanges are not so much the working ability, because you can find good working line Dobermann's. The main issue is the health problems in the breed and the tiny gene pool of good ones. 50% will die before the age of 7 from Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM), cancer will take out a lot of others, then you have some liver issues, wobblers, hypothyroidism and to a much lesser extent Von Willebrand's disease. Combine that with so few quality trainers handling a Dobermann and I think it makes any comeback a steep slope.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Sadly, probably not a lot of them will ever make much of a comeback. There will of course always be pockets of good dogs, but that tiny pocket means a tiny gene pool, so even if you expand the size of the population, focusing on breeding only the best working examples, you end up running the risk of also expanding the health problems.
But the real reason they're not likely to make much of a comeback, is kinda what Steve said in his last sentence. You have to convince the end user that a bouvier (for example) is just as good a bet as a malinois for his next working prospect. No matter if the end user is a top trainer with championship aspirations, or a police department looking for a police dog.
Until that happens, in significant numbers, the offbreeds will continue to be handled and worked on a smaller scale, mostly by people with an emotional attachment to the breed.
Derek


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Bulldogs don't need a "comeback" there are plenty of good bulldogs out there. They just don't have handlers or trainers who know what to do with them. 

I firmly believe there are plenty of bull breeds esp pit bulls out there that could complete very well with the herders if they had the right trainers and handlers.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't want the Dobermanns to make a come back. People that like Dobermanns can find a good one. The quickest road to ruin for any breed is popularity.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Comebacks...chances are none will have a measured comeback. Once something is gone, it's gone. The Labrador Duck never made a return to the wetlands! The key as I see it, keep your K-9 interest in the public eye for as long as it can be done. When folks run it down...defend with all it is worth!!!:x


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> With the Dobermann the chalanges are not so much the working ability, because you can find good working line Dobermann's. The main issue is the health problems in the breed and the tiny gene pool of good ones. 50% will die before the age of 7 from Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM), cancer will take out a lot of others, then you have some liver issues, wobblers, hypothyroidism and to a much lesser extent Von Willebrand's disease. Combine that with so few quality trainers handling a Dobermann and I think it makes any comeback a steep slope.


I think your numbers are incorrect. _Up to 50% of Dobermans will eventually die of cardio disease._ Not 50% will die before 7 years. A Doberman can die at 13 years of cardio disease. That is something very different than one that dies at 6 of it.

I think Dobermans are making a comeback.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Mine died of DCM at 11

I think bull breeds may become more popular.

anyone know anything about the Donovan pinscher?


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

We have recently been down the Donovan Pincher thread, do a quick search. You all keep your hearders, I'll stick to the bulliest. Evey body happy!


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> anyone know anything about the Donovan pinscher?


I don't know much about the breed but I saw one trial in IPO recently. Interesting little dog with reasonable quickness and decent intensity but they're just too small for me. We have a female Boxer that's bigger than that dog was and she's only 10 months old. I think the same is true for the good pits I have seen - most people doing bite work want a dog that's formidable. No doubt a good working pitbull is intense, and i wouldn't be lining up to take a live bite from one, but a 40lb dog soaking wet can only look so impressive hanging off a sleeve IMO.

As others have said, I think there are great working lines of most breeds out there if you do the research - they're just not as prevalent in the most popular working venues because most people prefer to stack the deck in their favor.

Its hard to overlook the herders if you want a dog that will work for extended periods of time and in any weather condition.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Comebacks for many of the sporting, working, and herding breeds may never move from the background. Again, it has lots to do with Breed Specific Legislation, folks in insurance and homeowners associations which "target" them. Last by not least are the handlers/owners who sit on the sidelines and NEVER say or do anything to promote the positive elements of the "lost" breeds and those getting kicked to the curb!:-k


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Comebacks for many of the sporting, working, and herding breeds may never move from the background. Again, it has lots to do with Breed Specific Legislation, folks in insurance and homeowners associations which "target" them. Last by not least are the handlers/owners who sit on the sidelines and NEVER say or do anything to promote the positive elements of the "lost" breeds and those getting kicked to the curb!:-k


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Maggie, your still waiting for the Proclaimers to make a comeback, let alone a whole breed of dog.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Maggie, your still waiting for the Proclaimers to make a comeback, let alone a whole breed of dog.


You mean, you understood that ^^^^ ?

Why on earth would an off breed make a comeback ??? Poster must be stoned, no ?

As for Proclaimers.. I concede!


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I know my breed of choice will never out number the shepherds, rotties and other sheep herding dogs in sports. But after being a groomer for 10 years, and being involved in other dog sports for nearly 20 years. There are two types of working dog's i'm not interested in. Bird dogs and sheepdogs. Both are too hyper, spastic, mouthy, vocal, smelly, hairy and pushy. All the stuff that dog training people in the field and training arenas love! 
I like a dog that has a mellow off button, but can fire it up when it's needed. Payne is more drivey then my last bunch of dogs. And smaller at 65 lbs. But she packs a punch, shows great obedience drive now that i've figured out hat that is..... Loves her agility work and retrieves like no other dog i've had before.
She's fun but without the problems i'm seeing with the GSD and Rotts at our training group. I'm always going to be the odd dog out in the pack.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

none of them in the US ... the culture in general is ever softening and getting weaker by the day ,, there are already areas folks are having to hide to train biting dogs,,,,next we will have to be quiet and watch over our shoulders even discussing them.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> You mean, you understood that ^^^^ ?
> 
> Why on earth would an off breed make a comeback ??? Poster must be stoned, no ?


Sorry, not stoned/drunk/high/etc. But thanks for the vote of confidence. :roll:

As for why an "off-breed" would make a comeback? Or somehow rise a bit to the forefront? Why not? Not that they'd replace the Malinois, however different people are passionate about different breeds. I know, that's the minority. However, some people really like working German Shepherds, Boxers, Pit Bull Terriers, and Bulldogs. Also, in America we like options.

So I could see certain breeds/types making a bit of a "comeback" or proponents making an effort to reconstitute a pocket of working Dobermanns, APBTs, Presa, or whatnot. Moreover, I've heard evidence of that happening to some extent. Not wholesale, and not to where you'll see a couple dozen Rottweilers at top-levels of competition in Ring Sport, or old-school Airedales and Boxers rising up to reclaim their spots as police dogs. However I'll occasionally see somebody say they've started seeing more nice dogs from Breed X, or you'll see an FRIII Beauceron.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Derek Milliken said:


> Sadly, probably not a lot of them will ever make much of a comeback. There will of course always be pockets of good dogs, but that tiny pocket means a tiny gene pool, so even if you expand the size of the population, focusing on breeding only the best working examples, you end up running the risk of also expanding the health problems.
> But the real reason they're not likely to make much of a comeback, is kinda what Steve said in his last sentence. You have to convince the end user that a bouvier (for example) is just as good a bet as a malinois for his next working prospect. No matter if the end user is a top trainer with championship aspirations, or a police department looking for a police dog.


Hey Derek, makes sense. For me a "comeback" would be more about a fairly sustainable gene pool that was free of the types of health problems and genetic issues you're talking about. Not so much popularity, just that you did not have people looking for a good working dog of Breed X, Y, or Z, and being told they're as rare as hen's teeth.



Thomas Barriano said:


> I don't want the Dobermanns to make a come back. People that like Dobermanns can find a good one. The quickest road to ruin for any breed is popularity.


Hey Thomas, I can agree with you about the popularity. However, I know people who _used to be_ fans of Dobermanns, German Shepherds, Beauceron, or Rottweilers (amongst others) that got sick of dealing with the lower percentage of good dogs, or just had a few heart-breakers that died young a/o did not pan out and just got a Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. Granted, I have also heard of good breeders for most any breed I've ever cared to look into, so it is not like i think they have disappeared off the planet. However, it is kind of sad to see people who loved their breed of dog and can no longer find the types they used to see and have moved on just because it was generally a safer bet to just get a Malinois.

-Cheers


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> there are already areas folks are having to hide to train biting dogs,,,,


I have been looking for a place like this. Where is it and why do they have to hide?


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> However, it is kind of sad to see people who loved their breed of dog and can no longer find the types they used to see and have moved on just because it was generally a safer bet to just get a Malinois.


I would be one of those people! But it wasn't a lack of working ability I was worried about with getting another Dobermann - I know what breeders and what lines I could have called to get a dog that would perform the way I wanted. I just wanted a healthier dog. 

and realistically - both those problems have to be fixed in the Dobermann before it can ever be considered a legitimate working prospect again. Yeah, we need a wider gene pool of really strong dogs - but no matter how strong the dogs end up being, you're never going to see them as widespread police or military dogs if they're still dying off in their prime.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Karen M Wood said:


> Both are too hyper, spastic, mouthy, vocal, smelly, hairy and pushy. .


If you're talking about some of the dog handlers I've met - good on ya!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Maybe not the right terms, however I suspect most would know what I mean. Which breeds, either non-traditional or traditional-but-not-a-Malinois/Dutch-Shepherd/German-Shepherd seems most likely to make a comeback or develop into a viable option for a working dog? Granted, there are noted good-to-great individual dogs or breeders of various breeds, however generally speaking most will lament how breed _________ is not like they were in the good old days and how hard it is to find a good working Dobermann/Rottweiler/Airedale/Boxer/etc., or even a good German Shepherd.
> 
> On the contrary, you'll see reports of a great individual dog/breeder, or about Tim Welch and his Beauceron Avatar hitting FRIII, Leri Hanson getting her APBT Cassie to FRIII, Butch Henderson competing at national and world-level compatitions with Dobermanns and Bouvier.
> 
> ...


This is an interesting subject and I have been thinking about it for the last few days and here are some thoughts.

You have a belief that these breeds were at some point great working dogs. Really? What are you basing that on? Maybe these breeds were always marginal and now that the criteria for a good working dog has gone up and these dogs simply can't compete at this higher level? There was a time when LEO would laugh at the idea of a duel purpose dog and now they are common place if not the norm. I remember when it was a big deal that a dog didn't blow any exercises in schutzhund. Now the vast majority of dogs don't blow any exercises. What we are asking dogs to do today is incredible.

Don't get caught up on the freaks. Dogs like Avatar and Cassie are freaks. Marvelous freaks, but still freaks. They are not some glimpse into the past. These dogs would have been freaks at anytime in history. If their outstanding qualities were in the gene pool, to any great measure, you would find other great working dogs in their siblings, families or offspring. 

I used to be into Rotties. I didn't leave the breed because I could not find ones that worked. I left because I couldn't stand the people involved in the breed. I could and still can find a Rottweiler that works as good as the Rottweilers from 30 years ago without a problem. Would it work as good as a Malinois? Of course not! It would not have worked as good as a Malinois 30 years ago either.

Can these breeds be improved? I'm dubious. They simply don't have enough breeders breeding purely for working traits. All of these breeds are shackled to breed clubs that insist that all the dogs have to conform to show/conformation standards and have breed test that exclude dogs from breeding for conformation traits. For instance, you can have the best working Rottweiler in the world that was absolutely perfect in every way except he has a pricked ear and that dog is unbreedable according to the breed clubs. This is short bus stupid!!!! I honestly believe that breed testing, as practiced in the German way, destroys working ability in the long run. Think about it for a minute, every breed that has rigorous breed test is in decline. Yet we don't see this in KNPV or NVBK Malinois or working Border Collies. Why is this? If breed test produce better working dogs then why are the breeds that have no breed test so much better in the work? 

So in answer to your question, there will never be a comeback because they were never there in the first place. And they will never catch up because the breed testing holds them back and they do not have a big enough group of breeders interested ONLY in the working abilities.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

I have no idea which breeds seem poised for a comeback, however, I would like to see more nice quality dobes and boxers. Mostly so I can have some shorthaired options.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

catherine hardigan said:


> I have no idea which breeds seem poised for a comeback, however, I would like to see more nice quality dobes and boxers. Mostly so I can have some shorthaired options.



So if there was a Doberman or Boxer, with a slightly longer coat, you wouldn't want it?


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Christopher, interesting response.



Christopher Smith said:


> This is an interesting subject and I have been thinking about it for the last few days and here are some thoughts.
> 
> You have a belief that these breeds were at some point great working dogs. Really? What are you basing that on? [snip] What we are asking dogs to do today is incredible.


If I am honest and strip away ye olde tyme stories? The fact these breeds were legitimate choices for police/security/etc. Yeah, you can find hype for any breed history. Still, these dogs that have a history of being working breeds in police/military/protection/etc. all seemed like legitimate choices, not just "if you don't want a Malinois." Plus, there are the accounts of people who used to be able to find good/great dogs in various breeds not being able to do so now, or at least not quite so readily.

FWIW, I have also seen some Malinois people (for example) that were genuinely impressed by certain breeders' dogs or certain lines of other dogs. Granted, they had different strengths/weaknesses, but it seems like there are still some great working dogs in the alt-breeds.



> Don't get caught up on the freaks. Dogs like Avatar and Cassie are freaks. Marvelous freaks, but still freaks. They are not some glimpse into the past. These dogs would have been freaks at anytime in history. If their outstanding qualities were in the gene pool, to any great measure, you would find other great working dogs in their siblings, families or offspring.


I can see your point. However, those traits got there from somewhere. Part of why I wonder about that is Oden. I know, for American Bulldog folk this is the sort of thing of legend, and I'm sure he was more the exception. That said, you had a dog that from what accounts I've read was not really chosen for a Ring dog, none of his siblings were even tried in Ring that I know of, yet he got his Ring 2 and through one leg of his Ring 3 from what I read. Avatar, Cassie, and Agir all benefited from pretty highly-accomplished handlers, so I am not completely oblivious to that part of the equation. Still, for every Avatar, how many Beauceron (or whatever off-breed) might have what it takes to be a serviceable sport/police/military dog but gets overlooked because it's not be quite as good or is slower to mature or may be different to train or any number of reasons and the handler just got a Malinois or German Shepherd?



> I used to be into Rotties. I didn't leave the breed because I could not find ones that worked. I left because I couldn't stand the people involved in the breed. I could and still can find a Rottweiler that works as good as the Rottweilers from 30 years ago without a problem. Would it work as good as a Malinois? Of course not! It would not have worked as good as a Malinois 30 years ago either.


Fair enough. Just thinking aloud, might there not still be a niche for that type of dog though? Still, I can see your point if it's between settling for a dog that's probably good enough for job X, Y, or Z, and a dog that's the best tool for the job. Still, there do seem to be some dogs in various breeds that seem perfectly capable working dogs (not that you were arguing differently or anything, just sort of musing).



> Can these breeds be improved? I'm dubious. They simply don't have enough breeders breeding purely for working traits. All of these breeds are shackled to breed clubs that insist that all the dogs have to conform to show/conformation standards and have breed test that exclude dogs from breeding for conformation traits. For instance, you can have the best working Rottweiler in the world that was absolutely perfect in every way except he has a pricked ear and that dog is unbreedable according to the breed clubs. This is short bus stupid!!!!


Point taken. Still, there seem to be a few within every breed. It would be nice to think at there are always enough people breeding for working traits that the traditional working breeds would at least remain viable choices and they could maybe still develop and evolve in a positive direction. It would obviously help if they were not hamstrung by overly strict confirmation requirements.



> So in answer to your question, there will never be a comeback because they were never there in the first place. And they will never catch up because the breed testing holds them back and they do not have a big enough group of breeders interested ONLY in the working abilities.


Thanks for the reply.

-Cheers


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm with you on a lot ofy our post. I guess a lot of the today's "off breeds" were maybe not seldom but not leading the ranking lists. They were there but not in large numbers.

However, I can't agree to this:

I honestly believe that breed testing, as practiced in the German way, destroys working ability in the long run. Think about it for a minute, every breed that has rigorous breed test is in decline. Yet we don't see this in KNPV or NVBK Malinois or working Border Collies. Why is this? If breed test produce better working dogs then why are the breeds that have no breed test so much better in the work?

*You think about it for a minute*. As long as a breeder adheres to the standard, he can breed the type of dog he wants. The strong nerved type of dog that cannot wait to fight the helper. Or, the type of dog that does a neat obedience round and skates through the protection work without making a mistake but not making his mark!!

Don't just blame the breed tests. No breeder is forbidden to rise above these and many do. The ones who breed dogs who can be good allrounders, i.e. tracking, obedience, protection but without that necessary bit of gumption are forgiven.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Okay Gillian I have a very simple question. If breed test work then why are the breeds that have no breed testing doing so well?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You didn't read my post properly.

There are breeders that breed dogs who pass the breed test but then some! Dogs that surpass the other breeders whose dogs just pass it.

Breed test or no breed test - it's up to each individual breeder to breed healthy, nerve strong dogs willing to not only work out obedience, track well and challenge the helper.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Chris you can add to that a missing tooth or eyes that are too light in color...let's not forget now with the tail standard for Rotties we can get DQ'd for that also...find a white marking and you're gone...none of those things have shit to do with working ability. 

Vast majority of Rottie people only offer lip service when they say they want dogs that can really work.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Think about it for a minute, every breed that has rigorous breed test is in *decline*. Yet we don't see this in KNPV or NVBK Malinois or working Border Collies. Why is this? If breed test produce better working dogs then why are the breeds that have no breed test so much better in the work?


 
I think that decline might be the wrong word here. Maybe a better word might be stagnation. Maybe the dogs have stayed the same but our criteria of what a "good" dog is has changed?

I also think that the training has changed a lot and that plays a big role also. I don't see people training these other breeds the way that they have in the past, now they want to train it like it's a Malinois. You simply can't get the most out of these other breeds when you are not training for the strengths and weaknesses of that particular breed. Look at all of the trainers promoting training videos. How many have Malinois? 

Just a couple more ideas :-k


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> You didn't read my post properly.
> 
> There are breeders that breed dogs who pass the breed test but then some! Dogs that surpass the other breeders whose dogs just pass it.
> 
> Breed test or no breed test - it's up to each individual breeder to breed healthy, nerve strong dogs willing to not only work out obedience, track well and challenge the helper.


I understood your post fine. But humor me.... If breed testing can produce top working dogs then why are most of the best working dogs coming from systems that do not breed test?


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

I have also thought a lot about this topic. Maybe these systems (NVBK, KNPV, French Ring)are the best breed test. I believe that the DMC opened their stud book for this reason. When they could only breed to dogs that had passed the korung, they were not seeing the improvement they had hoped for.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

The things my foundation breeds could make a comeback at are now illegal. How many breeds currently are successfully utllized in a working capacity, as in a job united with a handler for a rather meaningful application? What are they doing? What makes the dogs currently utilized for that type of work the chosen few? And of the others previously mentioned what edge could they bring even at the height of their working capacity over what is currently utilized today?

Times have changed and encompassed in that a lot changes that far exceeds the measurement of time. Naturally, with that shift further changes occur with social needs/standards and values. In the end, change amounts to the loss of things we can't get back and in other cases there's aspects of change that represents aspects of the past that we simply don't have a need for anymore.

Basically, what I am getting at is the things that many working dogs were once used for has changed a good deal. I think we all can reconcile with the fact that times and needs are different now, perceptions of breeds have changed, people have too, how we fight wars is different as well. What once was a criminal running away upon being spotted while stealing is now the unknown hiding IEDs or in another place the criminal may be attacking LE with powerful weapons and bullet proof vests touting agendas few of us can even begin to understand.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I don't know what breeds make comebacks if any. I once asked a dog trainer from Europe why Belgian Malinois were not used as much as GSD until recently( the last 30 years or less). She said that the mals used to have alot of nerve issues and were not used as much. They have been around at least as long as the GSD probably much longer. I don't know if that means that malinois had a comeback but I think it means you can improve on any breed of dog through selective breeding.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> So if there was a Doberman or Boxer, with a slightly longer coat, you wouldn't want it?


Vacuuming and cleaning up after shepherds is a bitch. If I could find a dobermann or boxer with equivalent ability, health, and cost to a herder... then yes, I would probably consider one. Short coats are practical for house dogs.

Sorry if that doesn't jive with your idea of how a working dog should be selected.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

My first love will always be an American Bulldog. But try to find one that can compete with a mal or shepherd. pretty hard. 

Anyone who trains knows that these off breeds , most, are physical specimens, but they fall apart when the stress of percision OB is required. Mentally, most of these off breeds cannot deal with it. Certainly, you can hide it with training but it is not a dog I would enjoy owning. Simply put, they cannot process conflict well and they break down without bouncing back right away.

The biggest point is, as a trainer, you make mistakes. The dog MUST COME BACK. Resilient. Of course, as a handler you will do the utmost to regain TRUST with consistently expectant training.

Finally, people want to win. They want the best. A working shepherd with the right training in conflict is really hard to beat, in power and precision. LOL......but I still dream of going back to an Bulldog....probably never happen, but I can day dream. LOL.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

This might ruffle a few feathers, but I think a lot depends on what you think of as quality. I watch a lot of video on the internet. Mostly of training. 90% of what I see is a high level of prey attraction. I see very little real pressure. I am speaking of IPO. I don't know much about FR. Most of what I see there appears as prey attraction to me but I will leave that alone as I have not watched enough to probably justify much of a response. 

I think this is where a lot of the fallout in the Mali vs Shepherd argument has occurred. The type of training described above is perfect for the Malinois. Face it what the person from Europe said about why Mali's were not used as much as Shepherds still rings true to a degree. You take a prey monster, but somewhat sensitive and a bit nervy, Malinois. You train only in prey. What aggression you see is mostly frustrated prey aggression. This is evidenced by so many Malinois looking a bit empty in terms of depth of power, especially in guarding phases. As long as clubs , adhere to a type of training (and in some cases even trialing) where a minimal amount of real direct pressure is applied, and use super high prey attraction in the work then the Maliinois is going to excel. Some of this even occurs in trials and to a degree major championships. Where they are really going to carry the day is in obedience. With their speed, willingness to please, and sensitivity you can train without much conflict. As a matter of fact you can train almost without conflict because just withholding reward (negative punishment), might even get you the results you want there. Even at a major championship level the amount of points difference (between a dog that is techically correct but empty vs a dog that has a lot of power, is not going to be great enough, to make a difference. This is especially true if the judge cannot tell the difference between a V and low SG performance to begin with, or if the powerful dog makes a few technical errors. 

To take it a step further a good or great GSD is going to look mediocre if trained in the system described above. To bring a good shepherd to a high level means you have to bring pressure, more than most people probably realize. This is the biggest difference between the two breeds.. the training. I think this is also why some of those top professional Malinois handlers do so crappy at big events when handling a shepherd.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I think in some cases an American bulldog will compete with a mali or shep. Living in the house, being protective, biting,being civil, not chasing the cat, walking in parks, etc... You can find mals and sheps that fit the bill too. What most everyone is lacking is what they really want and need in a dog. No one knows what they really want because they have been told so much, what to like and want, that they haven't had to put any great thought into it.

The post about a short haired dog is important. If you KNOW what you want, and KNOW what the dog needs to do, then you can find what you need.

Most people don't want to be a high level competitor. It takes a lot of time, resources, ability, commitment, physical fitness, etc. If everyone were honest with themselves, they'd realize that their lack of commitment and desire holds their off breed dogs back, that otherwise might make it with strong competition.

Being on the fringe and enjoying it is easy if you are comfortable with yourself and who you are. Until I know exactly what I want, I am comfortable with free and unique dogs. If I have a purpose in mind, I'll buy or find what suits that purpose.

A comeback of a breed, like anything else, would have to be defined. The downfall that led to it, etc. I think you'd find the downfall more in the humans than the dogs. Revisionist history in the first place, about how great something was can do great things to make what is here now appear less than it truly is, not to mention a lot who don't know what they see in front of them.




Peter Cho said:


> My first love will always be an American Bulldog. But try to find one that can compete with a mal or shepherd. pretty hard.
> 
> Anyone who trains knows that these off breeds , most, are physical specimens, but they fall apart when the stress of percision OB is required. Mentally, most of these off breeds cannot deal with it. Certainly, you can hide it with training but it is not a dog I would enjoy owning. Simply put, they cannot process conflict well and they break down without bouncing back right away.
> 
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting about how the pressure and intensity issues often come up when talking about sport dogs .... especially from the LC camp 
- and with that said, i applaud that the LC camp is trying to bring more intensity into SchH
- but from what i have SEEN (but not competed in), SchH/IPO puts the least amount of pressure on the dog than other bite sports such as FR/KNPV/MR/PSA, etc
- so to me, seeing less pressure probably has a lot to do with seeing less intensity from a dog who should want to "get it on" and "bring it"; to use a couple of lame expressions
- but i do think putting too much emphasis on "prey drive" without considering the whole picture is insufficient to judge K9 intensity

- of course, i'm sure i sometimes i just see things from a totally different perspective ? 
case in point : i am MORE impressed by a smaller dog that will aggressively launch, get airborne and hang off a sleeve than a larger one; and i'm NOT talking about the "cute factor" when i see it, and realize why small dogs don't appeal to a lot of other people

and i don't understand what "Offbreed" really means either, so i don't see the merits of discussing an "Offbreed comeback"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> This might ruffle a few feathers, but I think a lot depends on what you think of as quality. I watch a lot of video on the internet. Mostly of training. 90% of what I see is a high level of prey attraction. I see very little real pressure.


Steve, I am not sure if you ever actually explained it, but can you show a couple videos or give a further description of what you call real pressure..

I have seen very similar posts to this one above, and asked what real pressure is, but no one ever seems to define it or show an example of it.
thanks.

I think I know what real pressure might be, but my idea of real pressure might be something entirely different than someone elses.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think Nicole hit the nail on the head.

The functions have changed, the focus has changed, the training has changed, entire societies have changed, hell even HISTORY has changed LOL...

With lots of these offbreeds, the actual functions aside from being solid dogs, mostly used to involve blood being shed, by fur, dogs, or people.

The uses for dogs to bloody animals, other dogs, themselves or people up, are few and far between.

Dogs that used to be capable of fighting large dangerous animals or people to the death if need be, that were used a capable guard dogs, are now being looked at as how well they will fit into a multidog household, and how social and freindly they are with other dogs, farm animals, and people, and how NON-aggressive they are, and how well they can be trained for sport work routines.

Fight is the word that comes to mind, many of those offbreed dogs used to be used alot more to fight stuff, control stuff with strong powerful bites,and kill stuff. animals, people whatever.

How much of that is going on these days..

Look at how much even basic functions such as guard dogs, or dogs for real world protection is frowned upon by most, even working dog people.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I think Nicole hit the nail on the head.
> 
> The functions have changed, the focus has changed, the training has changed, entire societies have changed, hell even HISTORY has changed LOL...
> 
> ...


True, especially some of the Bulldog/Bull-and-Terrier/Terrier breeds. That said, there are still people that hog hunt. You can also see a small undercurrent of APBT/American-Bulldogs/Bandogs/Presa/etc. being used for sport. It's understood they're not going to be doing it like or necessarily to the same level as a purpose-bred Malinois, however that's totally fine with me. Yes, most of my examples are the "freaks," however in the bully breeds I think there is a decent amount of untapped potential. They have a different ceiling, so maybe they are their own conversation (and they're not the most historically relevant for a historical Police/K9/Military discussion).



> Fight is the word that comes to mind, many of those offbreed dogs used to be used alot more to fight stuff, control stuff with strong powerful bites,and kill stuff. animals, people whatever.
> 
> How much of that is going on these days..
> 
> Look at how much even basic functions such as guard dogs, or dogs for real world protection is frowned upon by most, even working dog people.


True. However, there are some pretty fight-minded dogs that are used for police or sport work. Feel free to rebut this, however some seem to use that sort of fighting mentality (whether it's a Bulldog or a Malinois that really wants to fight/hurt the guy) and just control it. Overall the expectations may have changed, however couldn't you still use what the dog brings to the table and just train toward a certain goal, or if doing sport just use it as a test/outlet for the dog to sort of see what they can do rather than a test of the dog's worth?

Anyway, specific to the traditional Police/Sport/military/protection/guard/etc. breeds, let's say you have a really nice working Dobermann, Beauceron, Bouvier, Riesenschnauzer, Airedale, Boxer, or whatever that has a more old-school mindset (kind of like Christopher's Rottweiler that matched those you would find thirty years ago). Two questions;

How much does the old-school package really matter in making it work in today's expectations (for sport/police/guard-type work)?

How rare are really good/great-and-healthy examples of those types of breeds? Or maybe a better question (maybe not), how big do the pockets of those breeds need to be to sustain healthy dogs with good working traits and longevity? If very few are really working to save the working Riesenschnauzer, Beauceron, or Dobermann and clear up healty/genetic issues, at what point is it unsustainable?

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> The things my foundation breeds could make a comeback at are now illegal. How many breeds currently are successfully utllized in a working capacity, as in a job united with a handler for a rather meaningful application? What are they doing? What makes the dogs currently utilized for that type of work the chosen few? And of the others previously mentioned what edge could they bring even at the height of their working capacity over what is currently utilized today?
> 
> Times have changed and encompassed in that a lot changes that far exceeds the measurement of time. Naturally, with that shift further changes occur with social needs/standards and values. In the end, change amounts to the loss of things we can't get back and in other cases there's aspects of change that represents aspects of the past that we simply don't have a need for anymore.
> 
> Basically, what I am getting at is the things that many working dogs were once used for has changed a good deal. I think we all can reconcile with the fact that times and needs are different now, perceptions of breeds have changed, people have too, how we fight wars is different as well. What once was a criminal running away upon being spotted while stealing is now the unknown hiding IEDs or in another place the criminal may be attacking LE with powerful weapons and bullet proof vests touting agendas few of us can even begin to understand.


I can get behind that. I think for a lot of the Molossers (just to make a vague blanket statement), or at least the Bulldog/Bull-and-Terrier breeds, you are seeing a shift more toward either hunters or manwork, sport or personal protection. Not to mention agility and whatnot. I know, I'm throwing out pretty groundbreaking stuff here. :roll: However, I think we are seeing an evolution; not sure if the dogs are changing, but what most are doing with them probably is. So for them I do not think it's about a "comeback" so much as a "rising" or just evolving to use the traits they got from their nefarious histories in different jobs, whatever those may be.

Even with the more historically used breeds for this kind of stuff, I see your point that their jobs are changing. Not sure I have much to add to it. Still, let's say Malinois and Labs get used commonly for those types of jobs (sorry, no stats to back that up, just my perception), for bitework and detection. It would be interesting (in some dream world) if a breeder of good Dobermann Pinschers or Riesenschnauzer or maybe Avatar got people more interested in working Beauceron, and they produced good dogs that were suitable to that these modern jobs, if they might make a comeback. Not necessarily as popular as the Malinois is going to be, but still a viable option for certain jobs/situations. Other than the numbers of dogs suitable to such work (where Malinois and German Shepherds are going to win out), nothing pops to mind why a nice dog of the usual working breeds ("off" or otherwise) could not adapt to those tasks.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Irony. Saying this:



rick smith said:


> and i don't understand what "Offbreed" really means either, so i don't see the merits of discussing an "Offbreed comeback"


After your post discussing in the thread on offbreeds making a comeback. ;-):-\"

And I will presume you figured out I meant "offbreed" as anything other than the primary breed selected for a task, so generally anything other than a Malinois or German Shepherd, dependent on the venue/job.

-Cheers


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

"With lots of these offbreeds, the actual functions aside from being solid dogs, mostly used to involve blood being shed, by fur, dogs, or people.

The uses for dogs to bloody animals, other dogs, themselves or people up, are few and far between."

Hunting Airedales exemplify this point. Perhaps 90% plus of their hunting is bird work.Flushing upland and water retrieving.
Used to be they were primarily fur dogs, treeing bears,to a lesser extent hog dogs and always a vermin eliminator.

The DDR lines are also good for above as well as man work.There are a scattering used as police service dogs in Europe. This is a relatively minor strain in the general Airedale population.
It is abhorred by a small but internet vocal contigent that despite 70 plus years of Airedale participation, view dog sport as an anathma to having a "good dog" 
Presently the vast majority of Airedales are pets with the usual show suspects.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

so what does the "off" part mean ?
commonly used, normally used, widely used, etc. i'm fine with that
to me, "OFF" has a negative connotation, as in mutt

it's a no brainer and widely known that certain breeds have been used for certain jobs, but that hasn't ever prevented other people training their dog to do other things ... which they do, etc
- but if you need to standardize you go with the breeds that work the best "most" of the time like everyone else does ... for sport or real world use
- if you're more of an individualist and like to break with the norm, you choose the less common breed you own and take on the challenge
- no big deal either way

- common jobs, rare jobs, OK ... but then when you start talking breed standards, it gets VERY subjective, as in "protective" breeds, and then the words "traditionally" and "historically" get tossed in 
- of COURSE societies evolve and so do the jobs that dogs do ... how long have cops been using dogs ? you think it's on the decline ? actually it's a relatively new area of dog training when you look at it in terms of canine evolution, that goes hand in hand with urban development and drug use

anyway, just seems like "a discussion for the sake of discussion" rather than something to learn or something to avoid, so that's the main reason i had limited interest and probably shouldn't have posted in the first place //lol//
... sorry to have popped off; it obviously interests others and it's not my place to judge. a common problem of mine ... back to read only mode


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> ...
> Where they are really going to carry the day is in obedience.
> ...


But regarding schutzhund, isn't that the point? I am very young and pretty inexperienced, but even I can see the paradigm change in schutzhund over the last thirty years or so... the shift from rewarding power/seriousness to sparkling obedience. The sport seems to have become - more or less - one big OCD obedience event.

It's nice to see that Lance Collins, and some others, are fighting the good fight and trying to preserve the original tone and intent of schutzhund. However, I'm not sure how much good it will do in the long run.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Rick, just a few bullet-points:



rick smith said:


> so what does the "off" part mean ?


In this case, "off" just means not what is normally used. I suppose it _can_ have a negative connotation, but until/unless some other better term comes along, it was the easiest way to put into the title without writing a dissertation on the thing.



> - if you're more of an individualist and like to break with the norm, you choose the less common breed you own and take on the challenge


There are all sorts of reasons though. It's not necessarily even being a rebel or an individualist. Maybe you just know how Airedales or American Bulldogs or Dobermanns work and they fit into your lifestyle needs better. Granted, you can probably find a Malinois that would fit in pretty well, however you also have people getting them and they're a poor fit, or they'd just prefer to live with or work with a Dobermann/Boerboel/whatever.



> anyway, just seems like "a discussion for the sake of discussion" rather than something to learn or something to avoid, so that's the main reason i had limited interest and probably shouldn't have posted in the first place //lol//


My rebuttal to that would be I think some breeds might make a bit if a bounce-back of some sort in quality, or end up evolving to be more suited to protection/sport/whatever. Not widespread, however you do hear about maybe not a "comeback" but where a good breeder or breeders take an interest in, for example, American Bulldogs, for sport/protection work, or hear a few good Beauceron breedings. Nothing earth-shaking, however they're garnering some interest and they are both breeds that may be a better fit for some people than a lot of Malinois/Dutch Shepherds out there. So yes, part is just my curiosity. Partly, I think it's worthwhile to follow who is breeding what in various lines/breeds/types that are of interest to you, and the state they are in.



> ... sorry to have popped off; it obviously interests others and it's not my place to judge. a common problem of mine ... back to read only mode


It's not a big deal either way. I'm not opposed to dissenting opinions or anything. I just thought you were maybe overly dismissive, however even if I'm right worse things have been posted on the Internet.

-Cheers


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> This might ruffle a few feathers, but I think a lot depends on what you think of as quality. I watch a lot of video on the internet. Mostly of training. 90% of what I see is a high level of prey attraction. I see very little real pressure. I am speaking of IPO. I don't know much about FR. Most of what I see there appears as prey attraction to me but I will leave that alone as I have not watched enough to probably justify much of a response.
> 
> I think this is where a lot of the fallout in the Mali vs Shepherd argument has occurred. The type of training described above is perfect for the Malinois. Face it what the person from Europe said about why Mali's were not used as much as Shepherds still rings true to a degree. You take a prey monster, but somewhat sensitive and a bit nervy, Malinois. You train only in prey. What aggression you see is mostly frustrated prey aggression. This is evidenced by so many Malinois looking a bit empty in terms of depth of power, especially in guarding phases. As long as clubs , adhere to a type of training (and in some cases even trialing) where a minimal amount of real direct pressure is applied, and use super high prey attraction in the work then the Maliinois is going to excel. Some of this even occurs in trials and to a degree major championships. Where they are really going to carry the day is in obedience. With their speed, willingness to please, and sensitivity you can train without much conflict. As a matter of fact you can train almost without conflict because just withholding reward (negative punishment), might even get you the results you want there. Even at a major championship level the amount of points difference (between a dog that is techically correct but empty vs a dog that has a lot of power, is not going to be great enough, to make a difference. This is especially true if the judge cannot tell the difference between a V and low SG performance to begin with, or if the powerful dog makes a few technical errors.
> 
> To take it a step further a good or great GSD is going to look mediocre if trained in the system described above. To bring a good shepherd to a high level means you have to bring pressure, more than most people probably realize. This is the biggest difference between the two breeds.. the training. I think this is also why some of those top professional Malinois handlers do so crappy at big events when handling a shepherd.


 I've seen a couple of malinois with nerve issues recently. I've also seen some really good ones. I know that at least half the police dogs around here are malinois. So I think there have been some improvements in the genetics... gradually... over the years. Otherwise it would be hard to pass the patrol dog tests.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cho said:


> My first love will always be an American Bulldog. But try to find one that can compete with a mal or shepherd. pretty hard.
> 
> Anyone who trains knows that these off breeds , most, are physical specimens, but they fall apart when the stress of percision OB is required. Mentally, most of these off breeds cannot deal with it. Certainly, you can hide it with training but it is not a dog I would enjoy owning. Simply put, they cannot process conflict well and they break down without bouncing back right away.
> 
> ...


are bulldogs bred to be sport dogs ? I think the qualities of what most bulldog people think of in good bulldogs, have little to do with precision and sport competition, personally.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

If I remember correctly, which I may not, the first police dogs in USA were Mailinois, I think it was boston but not 100% so that would make it a comeback I spose

'Off breed' EBT were also used but not as dual purpose, which is weird they have very good nose's


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> If I remember correctly, which I may not, the first police dogs in USA were Mailinois, I think it was boston but not 100% so that would make it a comeback I spose


Actually (ironically?), Malinois and Dutch Shepherds could have been considered an "off-breed" of sorts for SchH (and maybe Police work, although that's probably a stretch) at one point since that was a German Shepherd breed suitability test, or at least a German test dominated by the German Shepherd for a number of years. Granted, the Belgian, Dutch, and German Shepherds were all developed as working dogs from day one as I understand it, however I get the feeling that the German Shepherd was the first choice for a lot of people (at least in the North America and probably most of Europe) until a bit more recently. However, feel free to tell me if I'm off there. Still, I wonder how much evolution there was to the lines of Malinois once they gained prominence. Some of the old school Belgian Malinois look a lot different than some of the more modern ones. A Malinois like Arat looked like he was built like a tank; most of the ones I see are a bit sleeker and more agile looking.



> 'Off breed' EBT were also used but not as dual purpose, which is weird they have very good nose's


That would be interesting. Breed stigma and the physiological changes due to the show lines would probably make that largely a dead end. The EBT was a lot more interesting to me whenever I'd look at the old historic pictures, like this:



















Before being bred for an egghead, it sounds like they had some nice attributes and I've heard there are some that are still pretty good overall athletes.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> are bulldogs bred to be sport dogs ? I think the qualities of what most bulldog people think of in good bulldogs, have little to do with precision and sport competition, personally.


Yeah, you don't get a Jeep for hairpin turning ability or top speed. It doesn't mean it would be tons of fun to take one to the Autobahn though. Especially if you have something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bWYabI2cLE

Which is not to say a Bulldog can't do fine at sport, however your criteria and expectations probably are (or should be) a little different than if you had a sport-line Malinois and got it solely for that one job. It's all relative. Unless somebody develops a sport line of Bulldogs, however that probably only works if it does not sacrifice what people look for in a Bulldog, if that is possible.

-Cheers


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

David Ruby said:


> Yeah, you don't get a Jeep for hairpin turning ability or top speed. It doesn't mean it would be tons of fun to take one to the Autobahn though. Especially if you have something like this:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bWYabI2cLE
> 
> Which is not to say a Bulldog can't do fine at sport, however your criteria and expectations probably are (or should be) a little different than if you had a sport-line Malinois and got it solely for that one job. It's all relative. Unless somebody develops a sport line of Bulldogs, however that probably only works if it does not sacrifice what people look for in a Bulldog, if that is possible.
> ...


 
Yes bulldogs are being bred for sport, WITHOUT sacrificing what makes them a bulldog. Numbers of ABs being trained, titled, tested, selected and bred for sport increases every year. If you know where to look there are great dogs to be found. It is difficult to pin down an AB to excell at sport compared to the top 3 breeds, in large part because just about every breeder will tell you their dogs are awesome and capable of everything you could imagine training a dog to do... lot of idiots, scam artists, day dreamers in this breed. You have to know bloodlines and what you want in a dog and how to select for it if you want to get a Bulldog for sport.

People new to sport or to the breed often get a pup they are told will be great and it is of course, not. Many people getting a bulldog for sport are pet people that have never trained a dog to do anything but sit for a biscuit and not piss in the house. OR they got the dog with no intention of it being anything but a pet and decided to give sport a try and find out Fido couch potato doesn't have it. It never helps that many clubs are not very supportive of off breeds. Too many people say that bulldogs and other off breeds require "special" training in order to succeed. No, sorry, just because it is X breed it does not need special super secret squirrel training to be able to work. Low drive is low drive, poor nerve is poor nerve.... no matter what breed the dog is. People make excuses for dogs based on breed. Yes, certain breeds are known for certain things in a general sense, like many mastiff breeds have low prey drive. But bulldogs specifically there are dogs to fit just about any lifestyle, there are hyper very high drive crazy mal like ABs, and there are no energy low drive hold down the couch dogs.

I train and work with a lot of different dogs and breeds. Currently in my clubs we have mals, gsds, dobes, pits, rotties, and of course my bulldog. These dogs are training in/for IPO, PSA, MR, or FR. I see more mals and gsds I wouldn't own than the offbreeds.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> I see more mals and gsds I wouldn't own than the offbreeds.


 
I wanted to add that I actually like GSDs, Mals, and DS... I currently co-own a really nice GSD pup, and will be getting a mal and ds in the next couple years. So I am not one of those breed people that dispises the primary working breeds because they are more successful in the working world. Any good dog (that suits my personality/has the drives and traits I want) is welcome and will get worked at my house.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

David Ruby said:


> Actually (ironically?), Malinois and Dutch Shepherds could have been considered an "off-breed" of sorts for SchH (and maybe Police work, although that's probably a stretch) at one point since that was a German Shepherd breed suitability test, or at least a German test dominated by the German Shepherd for a number of years. Granted, the Belgian, Dutch, and German Shepherds were all developed as working dogs from day one as I understand it, however I get the feeling that the German Shepherd was the first choice for a lot of people (at least in the North America and probably most of Europe) until a bit more recently. However, feel free to tell me if I'm off there. Still, I wonder how much evolution there was to the lines of Malinois once they gained prominence. Some of the old school Belgian Malinois look a lot different than some of the more modern ones. A Malinois like Arat looked like he was built like a tank; most of the ones I see are a bit sleeker and more agile looking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can still get bull terriers with a stop, they are easy to find in pakistan and you can still find lines in the uk, but much harder, I had one:

This is him at about 4 months, his stop became even more pronounced as he got older:
Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Got no pics of him when he was older, he was a beut, could really get the war face on and had a bite that snapped cow bones in one chomp, lol.

Here is a modern EBT with a stop:










and here is a whole litter:









Here is a nice one:


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

ill tell you what dogs are going to come back 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmegYstVkAc

working mastiffs / bandogs all the way back from medieval times ;-)
to protect land, property and family


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> ill tell you what dogs are going to come back
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmegYstVkAc
> 
> ...


nice collage of pictures.. any video?

I get people that come to training all the time and snap 100's pf pics..pic out the few that the dog looks good in, and wallah, he is awesome....even though if video was taken it would be obvious that the dog was not nearly as good as it looks in a picture...hell sometimes the dogs barely bit...but they sure looked good in the picture, while they had the sleeve in their mouth for that second


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> nice collage of pictures.. any video?
> 
> I get people that come to training all the time and snap 100's pf pics..pic out the few that the dog looks good in, and wallah, he is awesome....even though if video was taken it would be obvious that the dog was not nearly as good as it looks in a picture...hell sometimes the dogs barely bit...but they sure looked good in the picture, while they had the sleeve in their mouth for that second



Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner folks!


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Joby we have two bandog breeders in australia that i know of that compete in k9 pro sports and do very well.

although i havent seen any mastiff pitbull mixes, i have seen some very nice game bred pitbulls ( bred by breeders who also breed show dogs :-\") , and i have a feeling with no previous training some of them would have passed mike suttles bite test ;-). not saying all pitbulls, but some. And i think you will agree, that once those dogs get going theres not much that can stop them. actually trying to stop them seems to make it worse


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QD8D3ZWo3w

i was looking for some videos of pitbulls and i came across this.
this pisses me off.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

notice the dog first runs at the (brave) lady, who takes a small step back , dog doesnt do anything. 
it then runs at the (pussy) police officer who pulls out his gun.


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## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Michael, I doubt very many bulldogs or bandogs would pass Mike's bitework test as an instinct test. 
I'm a bulldog guy through and through. I would love to have Mike test 2 of my dogs, I know my old guy would love it. 

I love my bulldogs and I'm proud of how capable they are, but they'll never be the breed of choice. 

My dogs are often underestimated and it's fun to watch the helper's eyes light up when they realize the dogs have substance. 

The reality is there's not a lot of support for off breeds. It is what is, I take what I can get and leave the rest.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> notice the dog first runs at the (brave) lady, who takes a small step back , dog doesnt do anything.
> it then runs at the (pussy) police officer who pulls out his gun.


Really?

'Cause what I saw was a man lying on the ground in need of medical aid, and a dog that would let NO ONE near her master. Every time someone approached, the dog went after them. I also see many bystanders, including some getting very close and nearly bit themselves (it even looks like the dog made contact with one). It finally culminates in the dog rushing the cop with serious intent.... 

Not sure what this video has to do with off breeds making a comeback though.....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> Joby we have two bandog breeders in australia that i know of that compete in k9 pro sports and do very well.
> 
> although i havent seen any mastiff pitbull mixes, i have seen some very nice game bred pitbulls ( bred by breeders who also breed show dogs :-\") , and i have a feeling with no previous training some of them would have passed mike suttles bite test ;-). not saying all pitbulls, but some. And i think you will agree, that once those dogs get going theres not much that can stop them. actually trying to stop them seems to make it worse


ok and?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QD8D3ZWo3w
> 
> i was looking for some videos of pitbulls and i came across this.
> this pisses me off.


what pisses you off about this video? just curious..

If it was because the dog was shot, and that is why you are pissed, who is to blame for the shooting, and what do you think should have been done?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

want to get pissed about a dog being shot ?

watch this one....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kJVnA5KXJw


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ i understand why the usa has the death penalty now


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

personally i wouldnt have shot the dog, i would have risked getting a bite rather than killing the dog that obviously was trying to protect his owner. he could have called animal control agencies if the ambulance came before the dog handlers then (i wouldnt have) but i could have understood that they were trying to get to the man in time etc

two , if i did shoot the dog i wouldnt have watched it suffer for as long as it did, unless i was sure it wasnt a faital shot. he should have shot the dog again.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: " want to get pissed about a dog being shot ?
watch this one....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kJVnA5KXJw "

just saw this .... where in the hell is this PD ???
..... did this dog just KILL someone ????? if it did, why fumble around with a catch pole ??? still looked like it took two shots :evil::evil:

any K9 LEOS have a comment or should it be stuffed in the "don't know the full story, so can't comment" file :-(


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re: " want to get pissed about a dog being shot ?
> watch this one....
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kJVnA5KXJw "
> 
> ...


 then you comment anyhow LOL. 

The dog was running loose, female in heat...bulldog...broke her tether I think from the looks of it. did not bite anyone, growled at a kid I think though.

they were chasing her for like an hour I think. Officer said the dog growled at him...

I am not real emotional about dogs in general, I just cant see why you bother to chase a dog for an hour, corner it, and snare pole it. just to shoot it for growling at you when you finally catch it and have control of it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

it's an extreme vid and easy to see why it would get comments
i was asking a what i thought was a legitimate question ... there was NO sound at all on the video i watched, just a methodical, clumsy catch and then he shot it point blank when it was barely moving, and after it had clearly calmed down a few minutes earlier .... and then decided to fire again; maybe since the tail was twitching ... meaning, the whole video made NO sense unless it had just killed or savagely mauled a human, and justice was being served on the spot.

LEOs should see what other LEOs do, good and bad, and not suppress comments because it is another LEO on film, which is often the case. and a LEO comment, especially a K9LEO, should carry a lot more weight than any comment i could make. silence and apathy speaks as loud as outrage, imo ](*,)](*,)

you seem to know more of the background events that lead up to this; i sure didn't ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> it's an extreme vid and easy to see why it would get comments
> i was asking a what i thought was a legitimate question ... there was NO sound at all on the video i watched, just a methodical, clumsy catch and then he shot it point blank when it was barely moving, and after it had clearly calmed down a few minutes earlier .... and then decided to fire again; maybe since the tail was twitching ... meaning, the whole video made NO sense unless it had just killed or savagely mauled a human, and justice was being served on the spot.
> 
> LEOs should see what other LEOs do, good and bad, and not suppress comments because it is another LEO on film, which is often the case. and a LEO comment, especially a K9LEO, should carry a lot more weight than any comment i could make. silence and apathy speaks as loud as outrage, imo ](*,)](*,)
> ...


the story is that the dog was loose, growled at a couple people that approached it, but did not hurt anyone. Gave the guys a hell of a time catching her, they got her chained up, then re-chained her to a pickup truck, then got the pole and the dog acted aggressively while attempting to be loaded.

dog got loose, ran towards a child, the mother was able to keep the dog away fairly easily, went inside and called police, then went back outside with some dog food, and was able to get line around the dogs neck herself and tie it up, without incident.

There was no animal control there, and the dog was running loose..

Looks bad, even got me a little mad, just because the dog was already poled, but a good lesson for not letting your dogs get loose, the dog had gotten loose before.

Guy got ticketed, and a few months later got a gun charge for being a felon in possession of a gun and ammo. Filed a lawsuit not sure what happened. Of course the dog was not registered, which somehow is relevant, since that is in almost every story LOL...

Department brought in investigators to analyze it.
here is better dashcam..

looks like as usual the info was not correct, dog was already tethered when police got on scene, and they were able to get a leash on the dog and remove it from the tie-up without incident. The dog got "aggressive" when he tried to lift it into the back of a pickup truck, and then was "lunging" on the pole, so it "was on" according to the officer that shot the dog.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=626_1276905053

I get it, but it is still stupid, police or not..just happened to be two guys that were scared of the dog, and didnt really know what to do with it.

if a lady can give the dog some food and tie it up, the people that come to get it should be able to get it into a crate if that was the intent, not once did either of those guys even try to kneel down, and see if the dog would come over to them. Dog was freaked out for sure, and yeah maybe would bite, but only if forced to, from the looks of it...easy to second guess, but hell not everyone knows much about dogs...they are not dog people obviously...


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> A working dog in what capacity? what function? that is a wide net to cast...


 If you are talking from IPO capacity , I would presume it may be Giant schnauzer or riesenschanuzer making a comeback recently . I may be wrong , but that;s what I heard that schnauzer quality improved .

Anyway, I believe that Popularity leads to degeneration and exploitation .

Lalit​


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