# Probiotics vs. Yogurt



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think I may delve into the realm of probiotics. I think Fawkes in particular would benefit as he doesn't seem to tolerate pork (except pork necks are usually fine) and beef very easily (bison is fine though). I was reading on VIN.com about one of the veterinary nutritionists would pretty much insist that their clients who want to do a raw diet get a high quality probiotic. She said that the population of the organisms plummet soon after manufacturing, which is why she prefers the refrigerated probiotic (or alternatively making your own homemade yogurt). Good for calcium, but I also worry about possible dairy issues as adult dogs are not supposed to have lactase to break down lactose.

They sometimes get a couple heaping spoonfuls of yogurt (usually organic and sometimes plain, sometimes vanilla if they are out of plain) perhaps once or twice a week. I'm thinking this is probably not enough. I know Connie is a probiotic user. Anyone else have experience with them?


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## Melissa Hoyer (Aug 28, 2006)

My GSD who has EPI gets a probiotic pill daily - it does need to refridgerated, but it is just a basic Walgreen's type. Truly, I spend a fortune on supplements for her and didn't want to add much cost by giving the probiotics, but I was surprised by the changes I saw in her once I started giving them to her. If I do not give them to her for a few days, the lovely gas she gets starts up again. I believe it has helped prevent a reoccurence of small intestine bacterial overgrowth that she is prone to.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I use yogurt daily at one feeding. And Jesea gets a Holistic Digestive Enzyme that LB sells that she does really well on. 
But I have been toying with the idea of starting a probiotic supplement as well. Just not sure which one....maybe Connie will help us? [-o<


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

I had a dog on fortiflora. He had been having a hard time with putting weight on, and a fecal analysis showed a deficiency in beneficial bacteria ~ or something along those lines. It was prescribed by the vet, but I'm pretty sure you can get it without a prescription.

I almost immediately saw a huge improvement in him.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Another excellent thread. As much as I look around there is just no other forum that goes into these sorts of excellent conversations! Connie has me using Probios, along with some other supplements from Nature's Remedy, fish oil, vitamin E. 

Very interesting about the lack of Lactase. I give pup yogurt daily (spoonful)


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ted, 

How do you like the Probios? I am looking at it right now and am thinking of going ahead and ordering it. I will have to ask Connie if I should stop using the digeztive enzymes if I go with this stuff.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Tastes pretty good... A little chalky, though.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Sorry...  

I don't know how to assess it's effectiveness. My dog had Parvo a few months ago, but it lasted 3 days. Like he had the flu, really. No big deal. I like to think the diet was a big part of all of that.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ted White said:


> Tastes pretty good... A little chalky, though.


:lol::lol::lol: 

I will remembers that.....thanks for your input from the next post...I appreciate it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I had to log on when I saw "Probiotocs vs. Yogurt." :lol:

The reason I give yogurt is the probiotic content.

So it must mean "Probiotics in yogurt vs. probiotics in capsules."


I wouldn't give much vanilla yogurt (if any) because it's so high in sugar. Giving it for the probiotics (as opposed to, say, the protein or calcium) means that I buy only live-culture yogurts (no heat treatment after culturing). 

I don't know why you'd have to stop digestive enzymes.... but I've never used them. I would, though, now that I know about them, next time I have a dog to switch to raw. I just didn't, last time.

There's a thread on here by Mike Armstrong, who bought, read, and convinced me to buy and read the book "The Probiotics Revolution." It's people-oriented, but the topics are not specific to any mammal, really.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S. I give both, I forgot to say, because you can get different cultures in the capsules than the dairy ones. But it's a new area of research, and so far, there are some researchers who maintain that dairy is kind of a pre-tested medium -- that cultures surviving the dairy fermentation process are more likely to survive the passage to the gut. 

So I give both.

I give probiotics first thing, early, before the dog's stomach acid production kicks in. Getting probiotics past the corrosive stomach acid in dogs is the goal there. The more, the better, too, so you want to read the labels in the store.... and also look for outside testing for live cultures.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I give probiotics first thing, early, before the dog's stomach acid production kicks in. Getting probiotics past the corrosive stomach acid in dogs is the goal there. The more, the better, too, so you want to read the labels in the store.... and also look for outside testing for live cultures.


Okay, this is interesting, I had not heard of having to get them past corrosive stomach acid production.

Could you instead feed the probiotics a few (like 4 hrs after lets say) hrs AFTER a meal?

Problem is I would have to wake up at 2 am to give my dog his probiotics as he wakes up READY to eat, stomach churning at 5-6 am. He is not a good sleeper and has been anticipating being fed for some time! He is on this schedule because of when we leave for work, but pushing him to eat later in the morning on weekends will often result in barfing since the stomach acids are going strong already...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Okay, this is interesting, I had not heard of having to get them past corrosive stomach acid production....



Well, this is not just dogs.....


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, this is not just dogs.....


 

Shows how much I know!!! I know they are fragile, I had just never really thought of it that way...

How long after a meal would you anticipate the stomach acids being settled enough?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Shows how much I know!!! I know they are fragile, I had just never really thought of it that way...
> 
> How long after a meal would you anticipate the stomach acids being settled enough?


I don't know, except for what I have read about delivery systems.

Most of them couch their advantages in terms of "instead of having to take them first thing in the morning....".

And the timing of gastric acid production is linked to eating (and even to seeing food and starting salivation, etc.).

So first waking would be (I gather) the low-acid time of day.

Dairy suppresses some acid, but in turn, it then triggers production of more to process it.

There is a ton out there on probiotics. The trick is to separate the sources that are selling something.

I'm still up to my eyebrows in reading about probiotics, and I'm only as far as (1) being convinced beyond doubt that introduction to as many good bacteria as possible in young pups is a lifelong advantage; (2) being convinced anecdotally that probiotics are beneficial to my allergic adopted dogs (and wishing that they had had probiotics as pups); (3) seeing that the more, the better, because the greater the number and diversity introduced (probably at the time of lowest acid production), the more survivors of the stomach there are likely to be.

In addition, it appears that different individuals need (or are short of) different strains. So where there is a measurable result (allergies), I'm going for trials of different strains and delivery systems.

If I had no condition to be "treating," I would probably vary the strains and delivery systems as much as I (practically) could.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think I agree with the vet on VIN.com. If you're going to go give yogurt instead of supplemental probiotics, homemade would probably be the way to go. Doesn't sound too hard and inexpensive too. I just need to get a candy thermometer. 

http://www.stretcher.com/stories/971110c.cfm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think I agree with the vet on VIN.com. If you're going to go give yogurt instead of supplemental probiotics, homemade would probably be the way to go. Doesn't sound too hard and inexpensive too. I just need to get a candy thermometer.
> 
> http://www.stretcher.com/stories/971110c.cfm



Oh, I agree a million percent. For one thing, as the book says, you can then introduce all KINDS of cultures to your own product.

They have cheap yogurt-makers, too, eliminating the extra thermometer.

I just haven't gotten around to it. Like many things. :lol:

But when I do, I will be experimenting with the best of the capsules in it.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

I usually feed Kefir to my dogs. Note that "kefir grains" does not mean that there are grains in kefir. The starter culture's molecular structure is, for some reason, called kefir grain.

Hope these attachments open and arrive at the correct documents:

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/kefir.htm
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=25c64d01b1bd877e6cf9284bff479d0c
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefiran.htm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> I usually feed Kefir to my dogs. Note that "kefir grains" does not mean that there are grains in kefir. ....


I would too, if I had a reliable source of no-sugar kefir. The store where I shop has a zillion flavors, but the "plain" slot is often empty.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Surprisingly I find the plain kefir in the natural foods department of our large chain grocery stores, i.e., Kroger, etc. It's also in the dairy aisle in some of the other stores.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Connie,

Any info out there as to what strains are able to be introduced in home made? Yogurt IS in fact an easy thing to make. We have some friends from Nepal than make yogurt all the time. Rediculously simple. 

But I'd be interested in how you can introduce good live cultures. Like adding Probios to the initial yogurt mix and perpetuating from there.

Great thread!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I have "the book." :lol:

I remember something about homemade in The Probiotics Revolution.... I'll look it up today.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

That would be just great. For dogs and us alike.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I have "the book." :lol:
> 
> I remember something about homemade in The Probiotics Revolution.... I'll look it up today.


Huffnagle says to choose a starter that has not only the standard Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermopilus, but also a variety of other probiotic bacteria. He says that you can either buy these starters in health food stores or online, or use a small amount of a good commercial yogurt with live cultures.

He adds that "you could even experiment by adding probiotics from supplements," opening a packet or capsule and stirring the powder into the starter. He refers to a list of what he has determined might be good choices because of their testing: Culterelle, Florastor, Jarrow-dophilus, Theralac, VSL#3, for example.

He stresses over and over that probiotics are an individual thing -- that what one body is short of or needs for a particular condition won't necessarily be what another one needs.

He recommends checking with ConsumerLab (or other consumer org) before buying other brands, and he recommends choosing brands that also make food or drugs, because of the higher standards met in those facilities. 

My take on all this has been to choose from his list the ones with the widest variety of cultures and the largest numbers of them.

It's a relatively new area of research. As he says in the book, new information comes out almost everty day.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

That's great. THanks for posting this info. I'm going to try this for myself as well. A thought struck me yesterday that we eat food with preservatives every day. The job of a preservative is to inhibit bacterial and mold growth. At what point does the preservative stop working? When it becomed molecularly altered. Does this happen in the stomach? Probably not.

So it's entirely possible that you have a series of preservative ingestions daily that do the job of stripping (or at least inhibiting) the gut of beneficial bacteria.

So there are starter cultures online? I'll have to check that out.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Ted, for starter ingredients....if you use a commercial yogurt look in the yogurt section at Meijers. If you go to the end of the aisle, by passing Danon, Yoplait and the others, you will find some excellent relatively unknown (as in no TV commercials) brands. Read the ingredients lists and you will find live culture yogurts with many different probiotics in them.

Stoneyfield is the brand I usually buy. It contains about six different cultures.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Also wondering about the Dannon Activa. They market that as whatever, and I think actually has a patented bacteria in there.

Just recalling back to a previous comment... is it possible that these commercial yogurts may have pasteurize killed some of the little critters?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Also wondering about the Dannon Activa. They market that as whatever, and I think actually has a patented bacteria in there.
> 
> Just recalling back to a previous comment... is it possible that these commercial yogurts may have pasteurize killed some of the little critters?


As I recall, that Dannon one renamed a common bacteria to call it something-regularis. Cute. (That doesn't mean it's bad, though.)

YES, yogurt that's heat-treated after culturing is not what you want. I looked at a bunch of supermarket yogurts one day and found ONE (of a zillion) that had live active cutures. I think it was Cascade. Oh, and the Dannon Activia.

"Live" or "active" cultures.... it will say on the container.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> Stoneyfield is the brand I usually buy. It contains about six different cultures.


Six is good, from what I've seen. Four is usual and eight is a good find.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Amazing. So the average yogurt has no live, active cultures... So you could take a Stonyfield and Dannon Activa, blend well and start your own culture


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Is there a difference between "Active" and "Live" cultures? I'm told that you can take any yogurt and make more yogurt, indicating they all have live cultures. So I'm confused.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm confused, too. Where do you GET the cultures, if you're going to make your own yogurt or whatever, and how on Earth do you know which ones to use?


I LOVE Stonyfield yogurt - esp. the whole milk one. Their screensaver is kind of cool, too. :lol:


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Looks like Active and Live are the same thing. Some yogurt is heat pasteurized and will not say Live or Active.

You need a starter culture and milk. Starter culture can be Dannon or anything else that says Live or Active. Or you can get starter culture from a health food store. While you're there you can look at live cultures in dry form (like yeast is dry, yet alive. Yeast isn't the culture you want, just an example of live yet dry). These would be added along with the startre culture.

Then just follow any one of hundreds of recipies online. The bacteria breaks down lactose into its primary sugars of glucose and galactose. Lactose is present in the milk of all mammals. Pups have Lactase production (Lactase breaks down Lactose), but decreases after weaning. However interestingly, I read that dogs will generate Lactase if they are fed milk for several days. The study looked at the possible adaptability of the Pancreas(makes Lactase among other things).

Either way, Lactose is only in small quantities in yogurt.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

So if you're going to use yogurt to 'get' the cultures, why not just feed yogurt?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, that's the idea is that you feed the yogurt that the bacteria are in. I sure wouldn't want to pick out 4 billion _Lactobacillus acidophillus_ by hand! :lol:


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Kristen the "starter" yogurt is like a 1/4 cup. You add something like a gallon of milk to that. 

Your home made yogurt would be cheaper, taste better, not risk heat killing active cultures and you can modify based on what additional bacteria you'd like in there. 

It's the list of recommended bacteria that is the brain stretcher, as Maren said.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I know I am resurrecting an old thread but I was searching on kefir.

My husband acquired some kefir grains and has been making it for our consumption. This stuff is SUPER EASY to make [he has also been making greek yogurt and yogurt cheese] ........ and this kefir is a lot better than the store bought kefir. My understanding is the storebought kefir is made with a mix of bacteria but not the original strain. You get the grains [the are like huge fluffy curds] and put them in the milk and about 24 hours later you have.....kefir.......you then restart the process after straining out the grains [which continue to reproduce and grow bigger and bigger]......these grains have been handed down for generations...and generations......

I searched here because I was wondering if my dogs might benefit .... it has done my digestive system a world of good.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I know I am resurrecting an old thread but I was searching on kefir.
> 
> My husband acquired some kefir grains and has been making it for our consumption. This stuff is SUPER EASY to make [he has also been making greek yogurt and yogurt cheese] ........ and this kefir is a lot better than the store bought kefir. My understanding is the storebought kefir is made with a mix of bacteria but not the original strain. You get the grains [the are like huge fluffy curds] and put them in the milk and about 24 hours later you have.....kefir.......you then restart the process after straining out the grains [which continue to reproduce and grow bigger and bigger]......these grains have been handed down for generations...and generations......
> 
> I searched here because I was wondering if my dogs might benefit .... it has done my digestive system a world of good.


I'd use kefir for my dogs if the store where I shop had plain all the time (they do not). I have been giving yogurt for years, and more since reading Huffnagle (thank you to Mike Armstrong on this board who recommended the books to me). 

How did you get the starter? I want this. 24 hours? Really?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

BTW, kind of interesting thing about kefir: the Journal of the American Dietetic Association in 2003 had an article about a study (small, I think) at Ohio State showing that drinking kefir either completely or almost completely eliminated lactose intolerance symptoms in all of the (human) participants. The researcher (a medical nutrition professor) said that kefir contains more strains of the lactose-processing bugs. 

Small study, but interesting.

Anyway, I want that stuff you got. :lol:

eta:
Do you need a candy thermometer to make the kefir?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

This thread resurection is timely, I have been meaning to PM Connie on this, but hadn't gotten around to it.

One of the doctors that does a bit of work with our skipatrol program specializes in Crones and IBS. I was asking her what she thought about probiotics.

She felt that from the studies she has seen that yogurt was not a really reliable or effective source of probiotics...some of the reasons why have been mentioned.

The source that she recommended is one that you can get from a pharmasist without a perscription in Canada. This is it:
http://www.vsl3.com/

She felt that so many probiotics on the market are not proven or tested. She felt that there was at least some clinicals trials to support this product.

Now maybe they are just a company that has courted doctors well, I don't know, but it is interesting that mainstream medicine is interested in probiotics too.

I wonder if this is a product that vets would be familiar with also?

I am not personally using any probiotics at present, but just thought it interesting info from someone specializing in digestive issues.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

In the past I've used FastTrack or Prozyme. Surprised they haven't been mentioned. Otherwise, I buy the yogurt w/ active or live cultures. Was going to place an order so was curious if others have used it.

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> ... One of the doctors that does a bit of work with our skipatrol program specializes in Crones and IBS. ... The source that she recommended is one that you can get from a pharmasist without a perscription in Canada. This is it: http://www.vsl3.com/ .... She felt that so many probiotics on the market are not proven or tested. She felt that there was at least some clinicals trials to support this product. ...


Yes, this brand was listed by Huffnagle and by ConsumerLab when I subscribed in 2008 (limited subscription just to read their probiotics test results) for active contents agreeing with the label claims.

She is also right that more than "many" -- in fact, more than half of the products the report I bought tested -- do not contain what they say they do. Maybe they did once but were handled carelessly while being packaged or maybe they never did .... but I sure learned a lesson.

I guess I will re-subscribe just to get an updated result for probiotics products.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Culterelle did not do well on ConsumerLabs last report - only 58% of the listed (on label) 10 billion of Lactobacillus GG were found when tested. Of course the manufacturer of Culterelle did respond that they believed the loss was due to the way the company, that ConsumerLabs obtained the product from, shipped the product to them. It does note on the label (as I use this brand..... and a couple more with my dogs) that it should not exceed room temperature....the back of a UPS or FedEx truck is not temperature controlled.

Jarrow-dophilus and Jarrow-femdophilus tested correctly = as labeled...... as did FloraStor

Theralac and VSL3 were not listed as being tested on the most recent report.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'd use kefir for my dogs if the store where I shop had plain all the time (they do not). I have been giving yogurt for years, and more since reading Huffnagle (thank you to Mike Armstrong on this board who recommended the books to me).
> 
> How did you get the starter? I want this. 24 hours? Really?


You get it from someone else making kefir. Right now, we are just started so it may be a few months for our grains to reproduce to the size to split but apparently that is how it has been done for centuries. From all the reading I have been doing it appears there are about 35 different strains of bacteria and several yeasts [that prevent candida albicans overgrowth]

There is no boiling, no thermometer...........you just strain the grains that look like chunks of cauliflower and throw them into milk to start the next batch. With the yogurt you have to do the thermomter thing, then keep it warm. And, wWith Greek yogurt, you strain the yogurt through cheesecloth and it is thicker.....that is why that yogurt is so much more expensive....more milk to make less product.

You can google kefir grains and there are all sorts of places to buy them inexpensively. MY husband got his from someone he met on a food-coop list and got them for the price of lunch.

There is a group here 
http://www.torontoadvisors.com/Kefir/kefir-list.php


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

When I put my token "show Beauceron" on the circuit last year with a handler, I learned about the refrigerated human grade probiotics. 

Yogurt was my old standby for dogs with digestive problems or coming off a round of antibiotics. 

However, the hander used the powdered probiotics that can be bought in the refrigerated section of places like Henrys. He used this over yogurt because he's on the road and the product takes up less space and is less messy than yogurt. He had to use a small portable dc cooler. I think the value is the same, but the powder is more convenient for feeding and more "pure". You can just sprinkle the powder on the food.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Glad this thread has been resurrected also. I've been doing a good amount of reading on probiotics as well. 

The LactoB in yogurt is an amazing probiotic all by itself. Good for people, good for animals and excellent for plants. 

Being a territorial bacteria, LactoB aggressively fights off harmful (generally anaerobic) bacteria. They're like our dogs.

As a society fixated on sterilization of everything, we have lowered the natural background level of this very beneficial bacteria, so when a bag bug comes along, we have no guard dogs waiting to pounce.

I now make a gallon of my own yogurt every other week. Simple and cheap as heck and produces the best tasting yogurt I've had. Tastes like Dannon used to taste like 20 years ago. Tastes like yogurt I've had in Europe. 

I really recommend considering making your own if you like yogurt.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I gave the dogs about 2 ounces of our home made kefir before breakfast - about 30 minutes - the bit of "zing" did not bother them one bit.

I will let you know how it goes after awhile. Grim can have horrid smelling gas.

------

For yogurt, my husband fills a styrofoam ice chest with warm water and sets the jars in it overnight. It seems to work pretty good that way. Kefir is on the counter. I am old enough to remember when gas ovens had pilot lights; they were just right for making yogurt and raising bread dough....


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I use the water bath for yogurt also. Cheap and works great to maintain the culture at 100F for 10 hours.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I feed ProBios, I know that there is a difference when they don't get it and when they do. That's all I can add as you guys are way smarter than I am in this realm! lol lol 

Courtney


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