# Checking out breeders early



## Victoria Rosenthal

I hope this is the right section for this. I am looking into breeders I might/will be interested in for when I am ready to own a dog. I am not tied down to any breed YET, but I am focusing my research towards GSDs, Dutchies, and Mals. I am open to suggestions, but please don't be offended if I don't take them or don't agree. I will playfully debate if necessary. 

So, let me know what you guys think of these breeders or if you have any experience with them. They are not in any order but I am fond of certain ones over others even this early in the game. I am not experienced in what to look for except for basic things, so feel free to hold my hand through this if I need it!

http://www.vomeisenherz.com/index.html - Vom Eisenherz
http://www.truehaus.com/index.htm - True Haus
http://vangoghkennels.com/index.shtml - Van Gogh
http://www.sportwaffenk9.com/index.shtml - Sportwaffen
http://www.johnsonhaus.com/index.htm - Johnson Haus
http://www.wildhauskennels.com/ - Wild Haus
http://www.adlerstein.com/index.html - Adler Stein 
http://www.bojovnikak9.com/ - Bojovnikak
http://mohawksmalinois.com/ - Mohawk's
http://www.dantero.com/ - Dantero
http://www.dutchshepherds.us/ - Vrijheid

Thanks guys!


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## ann schnerre

if i could own an adler stein dog, i'd be in heaven as far as GSD. Mals--dantero. but if i could even train with Anne at adler stein i'd be ok. she knows her GSD, she breeds them to BE a GSD and she trains/decoys as well.

IDK Mals, but Dantero breeds good 'uns from what i've heard/seen. if i was to walk on the dark side, that's where i would start.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Adler Stein is one of my favorites/top of my list for GSDs so far. I am in love with her Ikon.


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## Dave Colborn

Any boxers?


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## Victoria Rosenthal

I have actually never considered a boxer. They never really appealed to me and I honestly don't know much at all about them.


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## Kelly Godwin

Out of the ones you have listed, I would look hard at Van Gogh. I believe there are 3 Van Gogh dogs at Nationals this year. Also, Claudia and Steve are both super people. 

We have a Van Gogh dog in our club and he is super. Got his Sch 1 today at the Brushy Mountain Trial today. I believe he got high in trial and high in protection. 

Van Gogh puts out some great GSDs. 

If you're open to breeders not listed, I'd recommend Logan Haus for a mal or dutchie. Really nice dogs coming out of there and Mike is a straight shooter. 

Good luck!


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## Faisal Khan

If you want to train/compete then look for dogs from kennels that are qualyfying/competing at top level in your venue of choice. That criteria alone will eliminate majority of the posted kennels and introduce new ones to select from.


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## James Downey

Of the Malinois breeders you listed.

Dantero and Mohawk's have had some very succesful dogs...Based on that it would be which pairing of dogs that maybe be more use. depending on what you want. I think both breeders have good stock and experience.

Mohawk is a good friend of mine...and I like his dogs. So obviously he's going to be someone I recommend. Dantero, I am familiar with watching on the field and having lived close to that kennel seen a handful of dogs. 

To add a breeder, whom's dogs I think are very, very nice I would Debbie Skinner into that mix. She has very some strong dogs, that have produced what I believe are very good Malinois.

Beyond that...and this is just saying. I would consider a breeder by how they do buisness. But breeders do not produce puppies, dogs do. So, beyond that...I would also have to like the breeding that's taking place.

So, I start with looking for breedings I like...then I decided If I want to buisness with that kennel.


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## Dave Colborn

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> I have actually never considered a boxer. They never really appealed to me and I honestly don't know much at all about them.


They are only the best dog for everything.


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## Jonathan Katz

I vote Bojovnika. I might be bias, but Ema is one of if not the strongest GSD bitches I have ever had the pleaser of decoying. JMHO


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## Victoria Rosenthal

She's absolutely stunning isn't she?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> http://www.dantero.com/ - Dantero
> http://www.dutchshepherds.us/ - Vrijheid
> 
> Thanks guys!


I have experience with the last two. My Mal is from the O litter from Kadi (Ordre du Phenix du Dantero BH, WH, AD, EV Cadet, CGC, TT). My favorite dog I've ever owned. Healthy too (OFA good, normal elbows, OFA cardiac clear, CERF, degenerative myelopathy free). I'm not a big trialing person, but we should end up with a few more titles at some point with some luck.

I've known Asheley Winters of Vrijheid for a good number of years now and would definitely take a dog from her breeding. Love her two girls Dana and Krumel, though I like all her dogs. She was kind enough to let me stay with her for a week while I externed at the vet clinic she works for. She's very knowledgeable about reproduction.


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## Ryan Venables

Along with those I'd recommend De Las Flores Working Dogs in Seattle... Les Flores has two Dutchie imports from Holland that were just bred. I have a Mal from him, and would not hesitate in going back for another.


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## Ryan Venables

I also like the Dantero dogs... Kadi seems to have a good number of Contes d'Hoffmann dogs... which I personally like... IF I was allowed to get another puppy, I'd be putting some money down on her breeding of Extra x Mac.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thank you for your input Ryan!


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## Ryan Venables

np.. pm sent.


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## Lisa Brazeau

What do you want to do with the dog? Ring? Schutzhund? Pet? Purpose will help you select a breed and breeding....


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## jeremy anderson

I have 2 females from True Haus. Sif (Tom x Cayanne) Faja (Tom x Gitta) Wouldn't go anywhere else. They have real nice breeding's & *they title there dogs constantly*. Jim & Cindy are very good people. Video's & pics of there dogs working all over the net. Can't go wrong with them. Good luck with whoever you choose 8)


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Lisa, my first dog will primarily be a pet. I am not sure which sport I will be doing. I am currently researching clubs in my area. I would love to do the ring sports but I think I would have to travel a lot farther than for a Schutzhund club. I believe there is a PSA or SDA club that is also within my reach. I am not tied down to any sport yet but I would prefer to do ring, like I said, or PSA or SDA.

Thank you Jeremy! I really love the looks of the True Haus dogs, the fact that they are titled, and just the general impression I get from the website. I have not contacted any breeders yet, but they will most likely be one I speak to if I decide on a GSD. I still have plenty of research to do and a lot of time to do it.


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## Dave Martin

Unless you definitely have your heart set on a ring sport, I would definitely start in Schutzhund with your first dog since we have such a wealth of excellent clubs and trainers in our region. 

I think you would learn a great deal about dog training and dog behavior and you'd be able to watch various breeds work at different trials all over the state.

Just my personal opinion for whatever it's worth.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thank you Dave! I don't have my "heart set" on anything at this point as even if I have this absolute need to do ring sport, if there aren't any clubs in my area then I don't have a choice. I just want to be involved because I think that I would really enjoy participating in a sport with my future dog. That and the caliber of dog I want to own is not suitable as only a family pet.


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## Richard Ramirez

Hi Vickie,
You should probably clarify what you want in a dog,what you want it for,if its for work,sport,or just a good companion. Things like that. Steve Miller of Vom Haus Miller has some very good breedings. Bill Kulla of Vom Geistwasser has some very nice breedings. Steve Estrada here on this forum has some very nice breedings. Raino Flugge in Canada has an excellent breeding program. There are some others I can't think of off hand. I hope this helps. I,myself, am doing two breedings this winter...........


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## Brian McQuain

Dave Colborn said:


> They are only the best dog for everything.


 
Always with the Boxers, this guy! Since everyone is throwing out suggestions, I'll suggest Gieske Working Dogs.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thanks Richard! Honestly, I have a general idea of what I want in a dog, but I am forming a better idea the more I research. The sport I decide to do will also help my decision, in my opinion. It's all a work in progress and I have plenty of time to learn all that I can before whichever breed I choose will be a part of my life. 

As of right now, my dog will be a companion first, working dog second. I am not sure how often I will be able to get out and train so I don't know how involved I will be. I would like a "harder" dog than most people would want, however I do need a dog that can handle being in public around other people without wanting to go after anything that catches its eye. I do not care for dogs that want to be friends with everyone. I want a one person dog, but I do not want to have to deal with uncontrollable aggression around strangers. My dog does not have to allow others to touch/pet/play with it. The Mals and Dutchies really attract me because of how quick to react they are and that spark they have. I love a good GSD but I am just more drawn to the former two breeds whether I decide they are suited for me or not. I hope that helps out, that's all I can come up with at the moment.


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## Joby Becker

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> I am not sure how often I will be able to get out and train so I don't know how involved I will be. I would like a "harder" dog than most people would want, however I do need a dog that can handle being in public around other people without wanting to go after anything that catches its eye. I do not care for dogs that want to be friends with everyone. I want a one person dog, but I do not want to have to deal with uncontrollable aggression around strangers. .


things go hand in hand...Don't bite off more than YOU can chew..

what do you mean by HARD?

you also want a ONE person dog...that is what? friendly? under control?

THAT DEPENDS ON YOU...

Don't wish for what you cannot handle...just giving good advice here...not picking on ya..

Example..

I could sell you dog that fits your needs perfectly..BUT it might put holes in an idiot....if YOU are lacking..you might even BE the idiot...


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## Brian McQuain

Joby Becker said:


> things go hand in hand...Don't bite off more than YOU can chew..
> 
> what do you mean by HARD?
> 
> you also want a ONE person dog...that is what? friendly? under control?
> 
> THAT DEPENDS ON YOU...
> 
> Don't wish for what you cannot handle...just giving good advice here...not picking on ya..
> 
> Example..
> 
> I could sell you dog that fits your needs perfectly..BUT it might put holes in an idiot....if YOU are lacking..you might even BE the idiot...


Good advice


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## David Petruescu

I agonized over a similar list, and although there are a number of great breeders out there I decided on a specific breeding from Dantero as my first choice (wanted a Mal). Matter of fact, I put down a deposit and I'm hoping to get a puppy Jan/Feb time frame.

Wish you all the luck.


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## Richard Ramirez

Vickie,
There is a very good friend and mentor that I have known for quite a while. His name is John Skalski. He retired from the Detroit Police K9 unit several years ago and headed up that unit for a number of years. He's into Dutches. His partner "Hannibal" is a very excellent example of a good Dutch. You can access him through Facebook. Good luck and knowledge will get you want you want!


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Joby Becker said:


> things go hand in hand...Don't bite off more than YOU can chew..
> 
> what do you mean by HARD?
> 
> you also want a ONE person dog...that is what? friendly? under control?
> 
> THAT DEPENDS ON YOU...
> 
> Don't wish for what you cannot handle...just giving good advice here...not picking on ya..
> 
> Example..
> 
> I could sell you dog that fits your needs perfectly..BUT it might put holes in an idiot....if YOU are lacking..you might even BE the idiot...


Thank you for your advice. By doing all of this research, don't you think I am ensuring that I don't bite off more than I can chew? I don't mean that to sound snobbish or offensive, but I am serious. I am looking into this so heavily because I understand that I might not be able to handle exactly what I want yet. I am flexible. I am not saying I NEED to go out and get a hard ass Mal right now that I can't control or train or keep up with. I agree with what you have said though, because I am sure you guys get your fair share of idiots wanting too much dog and not willing to accept they need to start underneath that.

By hard I mean not a ridiculously happy go lucky wants to be friends with everyone type of dog. Serious, if you will. I said somewhat because I am not looking for the extreme in that sense at all. One person dog meaning again, not friends with everyone. Neutral to strangers, indifferent. Bonded to me, willing to work for mostly only me or someone more experienced then myself. I hope that all makes sense and if there are "holes" in anything I've said please point them out to me. 

Again, I am not trying to be offensive or know-it-all. I am just willing to defend myself as I believe I am doing the responsible thing by putting in the effort to learn what I do not know before just jumping the gun and buying a puppy from whoever is willing to sell me one.


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## Joby Becker

Practical HANDLING is the ONLY way to insure that..

Research and WEB whatever...WILL not ensure ANYTHING...

there are alot of people that want to catch a dragon by the tail, UNTIL they do so..


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Absolutely, I agree with you. I know that practical, hands-on experience is the only way to truly learn how to handle but you can learn a whole lot from other people who do it online or off. Right now I am starting on the computer as it is my only resource until I can find clubs in my area where I can go see this stuff in person (which I have found a few). 

I haven't seen any working dogs in person and I have already learned a TON. I am researching pedigrees and lineage, general information about the breeds I am looking into, and breeders and how people who actually work these dogs feel about those breeders. I think it is a good start and like I said, I have a lot of time before I will own a dog so I am not doubtful that I will get plenty of opportunities to go and look at dogs in person.


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## Brian McQuain

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> ...until I can find clubs in my area where I can go see this stuff in person (which I have found a few).
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thats where to start. Find someone with a hard, asshole of a dog, and observe...take it from there, and as Joby said, practical handling is the best way to insure your dog becomes what you want it to be.


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## Joby Becker

OK

If I was YOU... I would NOT tell a breeder of strong working dogs that I wanted a ONE person dog..or a dog that is super HARD (that could be handler hard..or HARD or whatever...)

IF YOU HAVE NEVER OWNED AND HANDLED *HARD* WORKING LINE DOGS.


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## Jackie Lockard

I have a friend who got her first working dog (a Mali) a couple years ago, did a ton of research and wrote a letter describing her perfect dog. What she wanted to do, what drives she wanted, the social aspects, what purpose the dog would have, ect ect. I decided it was a pretty nifty idea and have done the same to help me pick out my next pup. She also forwarded her list to her potential breeders, which I think would be a great help when you have an honest breeder. They'll be able to tell you what their dogs are like and how those parents rank on YOUR list of requirements. A good person will also be able to point out if you are possibly biting more than you can chew (you either have it or you don't, being a first time owner doesn't mean shit, you're pretty thorough in your research from what I see), or if you're correct in thinking you need whatever drives/attributes you're asking for.

I will comment, you say the dog doesn't have to tolerate being touched by other people...are you skilled enough to handle a dog like that when its got a broken leg and has to take that er trip to the vet? Secondly, is your vet comfortable with a dog like that or are they going to drug up at the first hint of a growl?


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## Joby Becker

Jackie Lockard said:


> Secondly, is your vet comfortable with a dog like that or are they going to drug up at the first hint of a growl?


Nope a muzzle and a head lock, or rear naked chokehold...from me is enough..


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## Lisa Brazeau

Hey Victoria,

Going to the clubs is a great idea. I think you'll find that most people don't 'dable' in dog sports (those who try don't stick around long). It's more like a lifestyle. Show up for all the weekly meetings for 3 months. See what you think then.

Lisa


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Joby, I NEVER said I would tell a breeder I wanted a super hard dog. I do not want a super hard dog. I want the lower end of that spectrum. I understand that I can't own a dog of that intensity knowing as little as I do. 

Jackie, that is a great idea. Once I have a set list of breeders I'd like to contact, I will write up a document listing everything I want and the breeders are free to help me decide if a breeding I am interested in is too much or just what is right for me. I trust their judgement as they should know their dogs and I have no problem outlining every single thing about my home life, what I expect, etc. 

As far as the vet/broken leg scenario, honestly I would muzzle the dog right before the trip to the vet or at least before the dog is brought into the clinic. If it is my dog, that shouldn't be a problem for me. Also, I think the vet is a little different than what I was talking about. I mean strangers on the street, not someone that the dog will see from a young age, even if it isn't on an incredibly frequent basis.

EDIT: Sorry Lisa, forgot to respond to you! I do intend on attending as many club meetings as I can for different clubs to see how I feel about it, what it will cost once I get a dog, etc. I didn't think that many people "dabble" in the dog sports as I know it takes a lot of commitment. That is something I also need to get into and research more throughly before I choose my breed. I would love to dedicate a lot of time to it but I am also heavily involved in the horse industry so I would have to see how or if I can divide that time. If it's possible in any way, shape, or form and I truly enjoy the sport that I am able to train in, I will make time.


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## Jackie Lockard

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> As far as the vet/broken leg scenario, honestly I would muzzle the dog right before the trip to the vet or at least before the dog is brought into the clinic. If it is my dog, that shouldn't be a problem for me. Also, I think the vet is a little different than what I was talking about. I mean strangers on the street, not someone that the dog will see from a young age, even if it isn't on an incredibly frequent basis.


I didn't mean that literally, hopefully your dog won't actually break a leg. But if he's not going to be tolerant of a stranger petting him then he's not going to tolerate a vet's poking and prodding. Even with a muzzle, are you prepared to deal with a fighting, scrambling dog that's freaking out? Especially if you decide to go Mal/Dutch.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Vic.as someone who was recently in your postition can i suggest you get a mentor preferably a face to face one who has a lot of experience they might save you a lot of time money and best of all save you getting a "wrong fit".

plenty of good people here for that - just that soemone extra to privately bounce ideas off, i wish i woulda had one and not had to learn the hard way.

good luck on yr journey


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## Jennifer Michelson

Victoria, T Floyd and Carlos Rojas are in NJ and are both well respected in schutzhund. I know T and have one of his dogs as do several of my teammates (SAR). I have heard good things about Carlos as well. It would be easy to visit their kennels and talk to them and get get a feel for what kind of dog you want.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Jackie, yes I am absolutely prepared to deal with that. I know that some people may not appreciate the example, but I handle horses for common procedures that bite, strike, kick out, rear, etc. without drugging and using the equivalent of an equine "muzzle" of sorts. As far as scaring me, no. I have not dealt with that situation before but I am confident that I could quickly deal with it without anyone getting hurt and getting done whatever needs to be done. Thank you for providing a real life situation. Definitely food for thought. 

Peter I would love to have a mentor. It reminds me of having a trainer in the equine industry to help you purchase your first horse. I understand how important that is. However, from the research I've done so far, the trainers close to me are very biased towards a particular breed or not willing to accept anything other than that breed which makes me very wary. I don't want to get sucked into buying a dog from their program if I don't really like the dogs or if we don't agree on something. I will try my hardest to find someone who can help me, as I would love to discuss this with someone in person who has experience.

Jennifer, thank you. I have heard of Carlos, but not Floyd. I will look into that.


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## Kelly Godwin

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> Joby, I NEVER said I would tell a breeder I wanted a super hard dog. I do not want a super hard dog. I want the lower end of that spectrum. I understand that I can't own a dog of that intensity knowing as little as I do.
> 
> Jackie, that is a great idea. Once I have a set list of breeders I'd like to contact, I will write up a document listing everything I want and the breeders are free to help me decide if a breeding I am interested in is too much or just what is right for me. I trust their judgement as they should know their dogs and I have no problem outlining every single thing about my home life, what I expect, etc.


Joby is providing some great advice. The term 'hard' is relative. What you see as hard and a working line breeder see as hard are likely very different things. Many people want a fire breather until they have to live with it. As an inexperienced handler, you risk putting yourself at risk, others around you at risk, and the dog at risk if you acquire the wrong type of dog that you are not yet skilled enough to handle. It is much more than you can learn by researching on the Internet or watching a couple of Tim Stacy training videos. Haha

Good luck to you and your future pup!


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Just as I agreed with Joby, I also agree with you Kelly. I don't want a "firebreather" and if I used the term HARD when contacting a breeder I would not just blindly say I want a hard dog. Even if I misused the term hard, the length of the description of the dog I would want would say otherwise and I'm sure I would not end up with a dog I couldn't handle. I am not afraid to tell each breeder I contact what my experience is and the fact I am completely new to working dogs and although I am going to make a great effort to meet as many dogs as I can and go visit the breeder even if that means a plane ticket across the country, I know I am still inexperienced. Again, to make it clear to everyone, I DO NOT WANT a hard ass working dog meant for an experienced handler. I am not trying to come off as cocky or anything, far from it. I just know my limitations and I know you all mean well with your advice. I appreciate it more than you could possibly know.


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## Charlotte Hince

I'm by no means an expert but do you have somewhere lined up to live with this dog? I graduated a few years ago and where I went to school there is a serious lack of dog-friendly housing and those that are dog friendly had some pretty extensive breed bans e.g. No Shepherds, No Bullies and some went and added weight restrictions plus additional pet deposits some monthly and all absurdly expensive. This was all pre-renter's insurance. I inherited 3 dogs and recently picked up one of my own so now I'm stuck in the house I got with the dogs but I know I have to move for grad school and I know housing is already going to be an issue. Ninety-percent of the reason I didn't get a Mal was because landlords don't care if it isn't a GSD. I've been told they're "close enough". Homeowner's Insurance also gets tricky. 

ACDs have a bad enough rap and I've had several people actually ask if she's a coyote. 

Edit: I'm really not trying to discourage you. I'm jealous you have options at where to train etc but I know the minute you walk up to a landlord with something that has prick ears you get some looks.


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## Kelly Godwin

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> Just as I agreed with Joby, I also agree with you Kelly. I don't want a "firebreather" and if I used the term HARD when contacting a breeder I would not just blindly say I want a hard dog. Even if I misused the term hard, the length of the description of the dog I would want would say otherwise and I'm sure I would not end up with a dog I couldn't handle. I am not afraid to tell each breeder I contact what my experience is and the fact I am completely new to working dogs and although I am going to make a great effort to meet as many dogs as I can and go visit the breeder even if that means a plane ticket across the country, I know I am still inexperienced. Again, to make it clear to everyone, I DO NOT WANT a hard ass working dog meant for an experienced handler. I am not trying to come off as cocky or anything, far from it. I just know my limitations and I know you all mean well with your advice. I appreciate it more than you could possibly know.


Good luck to you. You have chosen some very nice breeders. Please be sure to stick around and let us know how everything goes.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Charlotte, I'm a little confused. The beginning of your post almost looks like you're implying school housing and how I will fit a dog into that lifestyle. I am moving into a different area entirely after school because I have a job opportunity lined up.

If you were referring to just plain regular housing situations, then of course that's different.  I will consider all fees and restrictions when seeking out what/where I'm going to rent. Obviously if it isn't allowed in the area I need to live in, then I will not get the dog until I am able. I will not try to bend those rules or do it anyway. Having a dog is a luxury and I will not make the animal suffer because of things like that. 

I do have the option to live in my family owned house in the area I will be living. It is not definite but if that is the case then family will be my landlord and will obviously be able to discuss with them. I highly doubt it would be a problem, but again, if it is, then I will wait. 

Don't be jealous of me! It's still a decent drive to any of the clubs and some in my state are over 2 hours away! Good thing the equine industry has dulled me to long drives. 

EDIT: Kelly, I most certainly will. As much as people seem to say that advice online is not so wonderful, I am a firm believer that it is a great supplement to real experience as well as just a great learning tool. It's also a great sense of community here as well. I'm not scared of people discouraging me or telling me that they don't agree with me. I'm here to learn from just that.


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## Charlotte Hince

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> Charlotte, I'm a little confused. The beginning of your post almost looks like you're implying school housing and how I will fit a dog into that lifestyle. I am moving into a different area entirely after school because I have a job opportunity lined up.
> 
> If you were referring to just plain regular housing situations, then of course that's different.  I will consider all fees and restrictions when seeking out what/where I'm going to rent. Obviously if it isn't allowed in the area I need to live in, then I will not get the dog until I am able. I will not try to bend those rules or do it anyway. Having a dog is a luxury and I will not make the animal suffer because of things like that.
> 
> I do have the option to live in my family owned house in the area I will be living. It is not definite but if that is the case then family will be my landlord and will obviously be able to discuss with them. I highly doubt it would be a problem, but again, if it is, then I will wait.
> 
> Don't be jealous of me! It's still a decent drive to any of the clubs and some in my state are over 2 hours away! Good thing the equine industry has dulled me to long drives.


Ha, I mean the latter. The school I went to didn't allow animals in their dorms period but the city itself lacked animal friendly rentals. I didn't think you'd set yourself up in an untenable situation but it really sucks to get jazzed about getting a pup and then realize it's just not feasible at the time. (Yeah, had that happen).


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## Victoria Rosenthal

That is unfortunate and I can understand how anyone including myself would be upset if I got my hopes up and then could not have a dog. However, I am not a child and I understand the practicality of it and putting the dog first. I can be patient and wait it out if I have to, as much as I might bitch and moan. Maybe I could convince my boyfriend to wear a prong and bite a sleeve on four legs.


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## Joby Becker

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> Just as I agreed with Joby, I also agree with you Kelly. I don't want a "firebreather" and if I used the term HARD when contacting a breeder I would not just blindly say I want a hard dog. Even if I misused the term hard, the length of the description of the dog I would want would say otherwise and I'm sure I would not end up with a dog I couldn't handle. I am not afraid to tell each breeder I contact what my experience is and the fact I am completely new to working dogs and although I am going to make a great effort to meet as many dogs as I can and go visit the breeder even if that means a plane ticket across the country, I know I am still inexperienced. Again, to make it clear to everyone, I DO NOT WANT a hard ass working dog meant for an experienced handler. I am not trying to come off as cocky or anything, far from it. I just know my limitations and I know you all mean well with your advice. I appreciate it more than you could possibly know.


 good for you...just trying to give some helpful advice...

example...

I would NOT call up Bill Kula and tell him you want a hard, "one person" dog. He probably would not sell you one of those anyway..but his "hard" one person dog is probably much different than what the average gsd owner would want, even if they thought they did at first...


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thank you Joby.  That was one of the points I was trying to make. No reputable breeder would (at least I hope) sell me a dog that will be a truly hard, one person dog. So many levels of interpretation, as you said. BUT, I'm sure this guy and other good breeders get ridiculous newbies contacting them all the time and won't accept anything less than a man killer.

I'm not that naive.


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## Kelly Godwin

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> Thank you Joby.  That was one of the points I was trying to make. No reputable breeder would (at least I hope) sell me a dog that will be a truly hard, one person dog. So many levels of interpretation, as you said. BUT, I'm sure this guy and other good breeders get ridiculous newbies contacting them all the time and won't accept anything less than a man killer.
> 
> I'm not that naive.


We have a Geistwasser GSD from Bill Kulla. Give him and Jen Acevedo a call to discuss what you want in a pup. They both are some of the nicest people in the sport. You can also check out their webpage at www.kulladogs.com. I'll shoot you a PM when I have more time.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thank you Kelly! You guys have ALL been so helpful thus far.


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## Brett Bowen

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> Thank you Joby.  That was one of the points I was trying to make. No reputable breeder would (at least I hope) sell me a dog that will be a truly hard, one person dog. So many levels of interpretation, as you said. BUT, I'm sure this guy and other good breeders get ridiculous newbies contacting them all the time and won't accept anything less than a man killer.
> 
> I'm not that naive.


I don't personally know any of those breeders on your list. But I'd just be mindful that there are always those people out there that would take advantage of your level of expierence. There was a post recently that seems like the breeder (name wasn't mentioned, but I have an educated guess) was taking advantage of the guys lack of knowledge and sell him what appeared to be a crap dog for an obnoxious amount of money. 

I would most definitely hang out at some clubs and watch and learn. Get to know the people, find a trainer, etc. The in person learning is by far your best source of education.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thank you Brett! I refuse to be taken advantage of and I know I am new to this, but I could recognize an obnoxious price tag when I saw one. Or at the very least, I would ask the opinions of several other people. 

Trust me, I can't wait to get out to a few clubs and meet people and meet some breeders too who have graciously allowed me to come and meet their dogs and see their facilities.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Victoria I think the very best thing you can do for yourself is to get out there and start meeting and seeing dogs in person. You will find that what people say on the internet about a dog can often be very different from the opinion you form of the dog once you see him in person. Some people exaggerate, some form opinions differently, some have agendas, some have never seen the dog themselves and only regurgitate what hey themselves read on the internet as if it was their own experience, there are all sorts of reasons for it. A great dog to one person may be junk to some one else based on nothing more then personal preferences. 

Find a few local clubs and start attending their training, go to any trials, be prepared to drive a fair distance if necessary to view experienced dogs and handlers in action. Not only will you learn more, but you will start to meet the people involved, get any inside scoop, breeders will treat you differently as a buyer if they know you or if some one they know can refer you then if you're one of many Joe Shmoe's off the internet that wants a hard working dog.

BTW, to me when you say the word hard, I picture an independent dog that needs to be whacked over the head with a baseball bat 10 times and then looks up at you and says is that all you have, not a dog that is simply not overly social. I don't think that's the dog you want based on what else you have said. A dog like that might not be a good pet/starter working dog and can be a complete pain in the ass to live with. It has nothing to do with being a skilled enough handler, some dogs are just self serving anti social assholes. You'll find people who have dogs like that enjoy working with them but wouldn't want to live with them as house pets, they get thrown in a kennel instead. 

Really your best bet to be happy with what you get is to see the dogs in person and form your own opinion, or find some one you know has a similar taste in dogs or at least a predictably opposing taste.


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## Brian McQuain

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Victoria I think the very best thing you can do for yourself is to get out there and start meeting and seeing dogs in person. You will find that what people say on the internet about a dog can often be very different from the opinion you form of the dog once you see him in person. Some people exaggerate, some form opinions differently, some have agendas, some have never seen the dog themselves and only regurgitate what hey themselves read on the internet as if it was their own experience, there are all sorts of reasons for it. A great dog to one person may be junk to some one else based on nothing more then personal preferences.
> 
> Find a few local clubs and start attending their training, go to any trials, be prepared to drive a fair distance if necessary to view experienced dogs and handlers in action. Not only will you learn more, but you will start to meet the people involved, get any inside scoop, breeders will treat you differently as a buyer if they know you or if some one they know can refer you then if you're one of many Joe Shmoe's off the internet that wants a hard working dog.
> 
> BTW, to me when you say the word hard, I picture an independent dog that needs to be whacked over the head with a baseball bat 10 times and then looks up at you and says is that all you have, not a dog that is simply not overly social. I don't think that's the dog you want based on what else you have said. A dog like that might not be a good pet/starter working dog and can be a complete pain in the ass to live with. It has nothing to do with being a skilled enough handler, some dogs are just self serving anti social assholes. You'll find people who have dogs like that enjoy working with them but wouldn't want to live with them as house pets, they get thrown in a kennel instead.
> 
> Really your best bet to be happy with what you get is to see the dogs in person and form your own opinion, or find some one you know has a similar taste in dogs or at least a predictably opposing taste.


 
I work with dogs I consider "hard". They laugh at prongs and e collars. When training, these guys have several leashes hooked up to them at various places, give everyone the finger (including the owner/handler), and try their best to do whatever the hell they want to do. PITA. I personally enjoy working them...probably because I have a similiar personality.

I also log in hundreds of miles every week traveling to train...


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Marta, yes, this is exactly what I plan on doing. I am already speaking to a couple of breeders about going out to meet some dogs and see facilities (not necessarily to purchase as I can't at this point) but to meet the different breeds, see some different personalities and traits, and see how they work. I am loving the experience already and I will plan on seeing trials of as many different sports as I can, even the ones I don't plan to participate in. I am speaking with someone, for example, who does herding and it is actually quite close to me. Even though I'm not necessarily interested in herding, I'd love to get a chance to see something new and to meet a GSD and a Mali as well in the same day. I think that's great.

Also Marta, thank you for actually defining the word hard more in depth. I was misusing the word a little bit. That makes it much more clear. No, I do not want a dog like that, not at this point. In all honesty, that would probably eventually be the dog I like the most. I know I love that personality in a horse and that is when I am sitting on this 1200 pound animal while it's frolicking, bucking, rearing, bolting, whatever. Animals that are too easy to handle are boring. BUT, I understand as a novice that I can't start out with a truly hard dog and I have NO plans to, trust me. 

Brian, your description of hard was very helpful as well. Thank you. I know the driving is going to be a part of this as I will probably end up wanting to do the sport that is the furthest club from me, but I am used to a lot of driving from the horse industry so it doesn't bother me. I'd just like it to be closer so that I can go more often, but we'll see how things pan out once I actually know which club I'd like to truly attend with a dog and after I actually have a dog since I do not yet.


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## Thomas Barriano

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> Maybe I could convince my boyfriend to wear a prong and bite a sleeve on four legs.


HI Victoria

Make sure his obedience is solid before starting any bite work


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## Brian Anderson

Brian McQuain said:


> I work with dogs I consider "hard". They laugh at prongs and e collars. When training, these guys have several leashes hooked up to them at various places, give everyone the finger (including the owner/handler), and try their best to do whatever the hell they want to do. PITA. I personally enjoy working them...probably because I have a similiar personality.
> 
> I also log in hundreds of miles every week traveling to train...


I know these dogs LOL .... Brian admit it your an adrenilene junky and those other dogs just don't give you that fix anymore lol.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Victoria
> 
> Make sure his obedience is solid before starting any bite work


His obedience is rocky right now. Do you have any suggestions for getting his responses to be sharper and more precise? :/


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## Jackie Lockard

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> His obedience is rocky right now. Do you have any suggestions for getting his responses to be sharper and more precise? :/


Ecollar. One of the 1900s, don't skimp. But I think your training goals are kinda strange.


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## Thomas Barriano

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> His obedience is rocky right now. Do you have any suggestions for getting his responses to be sharper and more precise? :/


Tritronics Pro 200 G3 with 2 receivers tuned to the same frequency


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## Bob Scott

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> His obedience is rocky right now. Do you have any suggestions for getting his responses to be sharper and more precise? :/


I'd be willing to bet that reward based training would work wonders for him. :grin::grin::wink:


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## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> I'd be willing to bet that reward based training would work wonders for him. :grin::grin::wink:


food or TOY???


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## Victoria Rosenthal

I could think of a great place to stick a TOY that would DEmotivate him. LMFAO.


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## Brian McQuain

Brian Anderson said:


> I know these dogs LOL .... Brian admit it your an adrenilene junky and those other dogs just don't give you that fix anymore lol.


Ha! You know whats up!


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## Thomas Barriano

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> I could think of a great place to stick a TOY that would DEmotivate him. LMFAO.



Hey Victoria,

You're a little bit of a pervert aren't you?
You're going to fit right in to the WDF ;-)


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Pervert? Me? No way...:-\"


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## Christopher Smith

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> I hope this is the right section for this. I am looking into breeders I might/will be interested in for when I am ready to own a dog. I am not tied down to any breed YET, but I am focusing my research towards GSDs, Dutchies, and Mals. I am open to suggestions, but please don't be offended if I don't take them or don't agree. I will playfully debate if necessary.
> 
> So, let me know what you guys think of these breeders or if you have any experience with them. They are not in any order but I am fond of certain ones over others even this early in the game. I am not experienced in what to look for except for basic things, so feel free to hold my hand through this if I need it!
> 
> http://www.vomeisenherz.com/index.html - Vom Eisenherz
> http://www.truehaus.com/index.htm - True Haus
> http://vangoghkennels.com/index.shtml - Van Gogh
> http://www.sportwaffenk9.com/index.shtml - Sportwaffen
> http://www.johnsonhaus.com/index.htm - Johnson Haus
> http://www.wildhauskennels.com/ - Wild Haus
> http://www.adlerstein.com/index.html - Adler Stein
> http://www.bojovnikak9.com/ - Bojovnikak
> http://mohawksmalinois.com/ - Mohawk's
> http://www.dantero.com/ - Dantero
> http://www.dutchshepherds.us/ - Vrijheid
> 
> Thanks guys!


Hi Victoria,

If I were you I would take another approach. First off I would forget about breeders and concentrate on breedings. I have experience with a some of the breeders on your list and have seen some good and great dogs from them but no breeder dosen't produce some crap. IMO, this is even more prevalent with breeders that are pushing the envelope. When you breed for extremes you are bound to get some extremly good dogs and some extremely bad ones. 

Also, GET OFF OF THE INTERNET AND GO LOOK AT THE DOGS WITH YOUR OWN EYES!!!! You have kennels on your list you have NEVER seen a dog from. How do I know this? Because you have kennels on here that have not produced many very good dogs, but they talk a good game on the internet. Mean while they haven't done anything with a dog of their own breeding. If their shit is so tight why aren't they out there trialing dogs from their own breedings? If they know what they are doing, and have been at it for decades, why don't they have dogs with 4 or 5 generations of their breeding? 

Once you see a dog that you like, talk to the owner about the dog. We all love to talk about our dogs and most people will be glad to tell you the dog's pedigree, breeder and traits. After talking to a bunch of people you will find that the same lines and breeders start to be said again and again. Then try to find litters that have the lines that keep being mentioned.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thanks Chris for your input. 

My list of breeders has seriously downsized since I posted this. I am still in the very beginning stages of honing in on what I want. No, I have not looked at dogs in person yet. Keep in mind I am in my senior year of college right now so I don't have all the time in the world. I plan on going out and seeing as many breeders/dogs as I can whenever I can manage to do it. I am going to visit two breeders after I get out of school. I am going to see a herding trial and/or club meeting locally as soon as I get the schedule. I will have the chance to meet two different breeds I am interested in. I am also still compiling a list of clubs and contact info so I can see which clubs will allow me to visit and observe without a dog. I am also looking into how I can educate myself better about obedience training and dog behavior besides just reading a few books.

In conclusion, I am pretty much doing everything I possibly can in my situation to learn as much as possible. 

I agree about your comment on all breeders producing dogs that just don't cut it. Looking at individual breedings is a good approach. However, I feel as though I need to get more comfortable/knowledgable about reading pedigrees before I will go out and be able to choose a breeding for myself. That's why I would feel more comfortable finding a good breeder that I can go and see the dogs and meet the parents of a potential litter and then make my decision.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Chris makes a good point. Don't just visit the breeders and judge them based on the best dogs they have kept for themselves. You might not get an accurate picture of what they actually produce. You're better off talking to all the other people who have their dogs or who have worked them. A little harder as the dogs will probably be scattered all over the place but that's one of the reasons to go to lots of places and meet lots of dogs and people. 

And I would agree, don't get too hang up on picking a breeder. Once you pinpoint the type of dog you want and from which lines, it might be easier to look for a specific breeding that will fit what you're looking for. 

Who knows you might even end up deciding you want to buy a young adult you come across, or import one, or import a puppy... so many ways to get a dog


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thanks Marta! I forgot to include that I have the opportunity to meet a dog from a kennel I am considering. I will make sure to ask that of the other breeders I will be visiting as well. 

I am keeping my options open, but I highly doubt that I will be importing a puppy. I am not THAT serious about sports yet and I have not even chosen a sport I would like to participate in. That will be something I will consider after my first working pup and then the option to import might be much more appealing to me.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I would add to this that you should probably decide on a breed first, or you may spend HOURS researching and talking to breeders only to decide you don't even want that breed. Unless you really are neutral on breed and just looking for a dog with X, Y and Z traits. But I think once you get out there and do some "hands on" research you will find that one breed stands out as the one you are most attracted to.

That alone will narrow down the field and get you heading in the right direction on your research.


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## Victoria Rosenthal

Thank you Kadi! I agree. I am waiting to truly decide on the breed until I meet representatives of each breed. I could say I love the Mal in theory all day long, but until I meet a few of different personalities, energy levels, and work ethics, I won't know what I truly prefer. I can't stress enough that I am a ways away from getting a dog, so I'm not looking to make this decision in the next few days, weeks, months, possibly even more than a year.


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## Bob Scott

Victoria Rosenthal said:


> Thank you Kadi! I agree. I am waiting to truly decide on the breed until I meet representatives of each breed. I could say I love the Mal in theory all day long, but until I meet a few of different personalities, energy levels, and work ethics, I won't know what I truly prefer. I can't stress enough that I am a ways away from getting a dog, so I'm not looking to make this decision in the next few days, weeks, months, possibly even more than a year.


I spent over two yrs looking for my first GSD. It was worth the wait! :wink:


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## Katie Finlay

Bob Scott said:


> I spent over two yrs looking for my first GSD. It was worth the wait! :wink:


My experience has been the same


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## Cayla Morrow

I have a female from Wildhaus, the K litter. She is almost 9 months old now and has been an awesome dog so far. My first working dog, she has a ton of drive...almost too much for me at times (a green handler), but I like a challenge and we have made great progress in the last couple months. Chris Wild did a great job meeting my requests with this dog. Shoot me a PM is you want more specifics.
My pup's littermate is also training with our club. She is a really nice too. These two pups have made even our Mal-fanatic trainer say he would consider a male from that breeding. 

Another club member just got a Dantero pup, male. He is a little asshole, even at 12 weeks, but seems to be really cool, we can't wait to see how he turns out.


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