# Different methods of training for tracking /trailing



## Misty Wegner

Hi everyone, I am putting this post here, although it could easily be in the tracking threads, however, I do SAR, sooo, here I place it  

Anyhow, as I've been training with my team I noticed how different each of the trailer/trackers train their dogs...all expect and get proficiency and demand excellence, however, the way it is gone about is very different. I train TTD (tracking through drive; yes drive is necessary for any tracking /trailing, it is just the term coined), it isn't common in the states, although predominantly used by the RCMP, in Canada. This method allows for longer distances early on and reading a negative 'on the fly' (you can over shoot a corner and usually see the dog give a smooth negative (run out of scent and Double back and into the scent and continue on in a smooth motion), and allows for a faster paced dog to move at the speed they are comfortable with (and you can handle, lol... I'm in greater shape now then before, haha). 

While in any endeavor, people can get locked into a particular method and of course chastise or dismiss another. I'm not looking to do that here. I think every method that produces a solid dog team is worth its weight in gold (and someone's life) and has its merits for the dog team using it and probably something for any team to glean some good tidbits to make themselves better. 

What I would love to hear (read) is everyone's method/style/training regimen and how it works for you and your dog. From how slow/fast, short and long tracks, FST or no FST, etc.. and time it took/takes for your certification.


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## Joby Becker

TTD training as you put it is fairly common in the US and also worldwide actually.

been going to leerburgs sight lately  ????


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## Misty Wegner

Lol, actually, no. I haven't met anyone doing ttd in my area. Most are fst, or slow tracking and get quite heated up if a corner is overshot even if a clear negative is given and track is reaquired.. I was taught this method when I was with CARDA in the early 90's,although no name was given it. I believe if follows a method similar to how a lot of bloodhounds are trained. But if you don't have a 'method' or follow after a person's training style it seems you loose all respect (in this area) from those who follow a given person/method/regimen. 

Anyhow, I'm interested in what you train/use, and others...


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## Sarah Platts

I think there are many roads to Rome. You like HTT because it works for you. But most of these ideas have been around for years. At just took someone to put a “name” to it and slapped it on a lunch box. This doesn’t mean they invented it, they just patented it. And marketed it. I can count on one hand the number of people who use HTT compared to the dozens who don’t.

I don’t do HTT but I understand the principle well enough. I know people who do and it works for them. I don’t lay breadcrumb trails, I don’t lay flag or streamer trails. Neither do I do footstep tracking. I don’t try to start with something that I have to later remove. My pups start with puppy runaways and a scent article. I also tend to start them on hard surfaces. I’ve trained 5 of my own dogs to mantrailing certifications (if I start with a puppy, I can usually get them trained to a working level by 8-10 months and run them through their first certification test by 11-12 months. 

The biggest drawback working a fast moving dog is that you will run into an issue finding people able to flank you. I know because mine is usually a half block behind me unless they do it from a car. It’s one thing to work these types of dogs when you are young and unbroken but when the body starts to break down….. a fast moving dog sucks.
I know, ….all of mine are joggers which is fine in the rural settings but what about the urban? Working a fast moving dog in the city has its own set of issues. Cars drag the scent, buildings funnel it weirdly. Then there are the cars, street crossings, lots of people getting in your way and suddenly speed is no longer your friend. There are times your dog will have to work slower and drop down to a walking pace. I know it frustrates the snot out of my dogs but that’s just the reality of the situation. They have to be able to change their gears – so to speak. 

I’ve written some posts on how I train my dogs. I’ve got a thread going on my youngest dog along with some video.


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## Misty Wegner

I agree 100% in that slapping a name on a concept that has been around for ages doesn't make it anything, except easier to explain to someone when they ask you what method/person etc you use.... I also agree that many roads lead to Rome. I am asking for people's response because it interests me to learn and hear of other people's way of training. 

My dog(s) ...(long ago past, and now current) started off very fast, but thankfully have moved (most of the time) to a jog. I do VST/ right off as well, although I usually have 20 or so tracks wilderness before introducing asphalt /concrete (sand, hard gravel etc is done within the 20 or so tracks). Urban comes after 50 or so tracks of solid blind wilderness or suburban tracks. I do not believe any one method is the cure all for all dogs or all things.. TTD, has worked for me and my dogs, however, other concepts are applied that I like - if they work for my dog. I am always learning and open to new ideas and feel I can learn from most anyone (even if I is just what I know I don't ever want to do, lol) 

You have been able to certify a pup before a year old? Sounds like you have a really good method/regimen /training style that brings great results .


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## ron ligtenberg

Hi,

Well I use to train tracking for puppy's and after they are 5 months I start the trailing.
Tracking is done on scented articles ( I never use food) and the dog/pup is wearing a flat collar.( don't expect an IPO style8) )
Trailing is always done with an harness on and I start with the runaway's with presenting an scented article before the run.

The dogs usually have no problem with the 2 disciplines mix.
The tracking goes at an bid higher than walking speed and I hold the dog back So he or she is pulling.

When they get the harness on its full speed when they are young so they get the experience of going to crazy and overrun big time.
I let them self explore how to work out the trail.
most of them start to use the tracking experience to get out of a problem.
they relax a bid and get more detailed.

now I don't need to run flat out anymore but jog:mrgreen:

The dogs are trained for PSD and are shepherds.


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## Misty Wegner

That's interesting Ron, a blend of alot of different styles while settling on a steadier pace in the end . I like watching a dog overshoot and explore in the negative or fringe scent and then figure out how to solve that problem.. Very cool 

If you don't mind my asking, what is the 'average' time you find it takes to get a dog to a certifiable level (obviously taking into consideration every dog and situation is different)? I ask this question, as it is unimportant in the aspect of speed. So many other factors are more important than rushing a certification... However, how dogs process the scent and learn with different styles/methods, etc is interesting and I'm curious what others have experienced. This forum is worldwide and holds more members (who don't all track or do SAR) then I have probably met, lol.. Certainly more than I have been able to ask such questions. 

One of my team members uses scent pads and trains up very solid dogs. Another uses a form of ttd taught under someone, and she too brings up highly successful dogs. I see distances happen faster with the latter teammate, and I see more precision (following the track closer to the actual laid track) although much slower with the other teammate. I admire both teams and don't feel either is superior. So my curiosity in this is peaked and I highly appreciate those who have and will respond


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## ron ligtenberg

Well you are right "never rush for certification"
Its hard to say how much time on average as I don't really look at the time.
it takes.
I train the dogs starting on the 8 weeks of age.
Like with Sarah most of them are showing confidence in what they do at 8-10 months.

As my(the ones I train now) dogs go for an police certification with bite work involved I like them to be older than 18 months at least otherwise its like taking a" teenager to battle "
Not that they wouldn't pass its just I like them to be a bid more mature for that kind of work.
All of the shepherds I train I do this tracking/trailing even if they are going as "green" or partly trained as it fore-fills their drive.
Working only on bite work is such a waist of their eagerness to learn.
(my opinion)
Now I must prize you for being open to all kinds of methods as thats how you discover what works or doesn't work for you.8)


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## Misty Wegner

Thank you for explaining in more detail . I understood the confidence in scent work at 8-10mos,but most of the certifications I know about (for SAR) require a minimum age of a year to even test.. My first Shepherd I ever trained started at about 2yrs of age and showed confidence in a few months ; although it took me longer to be confident in her, lol. My 13mos old started at about 9mos and seemed to understand and thrive in the scent so has grown tremendously fast. 

Makes an enormous amount of sense waiting for some maturity physically and emotionally /mentally for the dogs you train. Adding tracking /trailing to balance out bite work regardless of what the dog may focus on/specialize in is wise, I think. Obviously a potentially needed skill at any time, but I bet the prey drive for excitable or hard to manage 'on' dogs must get better at managing their impulses (and fulfill them) by giving them this outlet.. 

Love it


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## Sarah Platts

I think some like a year age (and some say 18 months and I've seen 24 months also) is that it keeps people from rushing puppies to much. They still have a pudding brain and the handler MUST realize that the dog is green, still growing, and to run them accordingly. Also if you are a novice handler it can take you every bit of 18-24 months to get to deployable level. If the dog is taking hard work, lots of stress on the joints - it just makes sense to wait longer so the joints don't get damaged.

The difference I see in my young dogs from 12 to 18 months is pretty dramatic to my eyes. The confidence, nose time, and stamina are noticably increased. But as you say, it really depends on the dog. And some teams have a whole list of things they want the dog to get (cgc, OB requirements, etc) and sometimes it takes time because of pudding brain. I do not recommend people rush to meet a deadline or age but take it when the dog is ready.

My current senior dog was certed in mantrailing, area search, and articles by the time he was 12-13 months (2 different agencies). Sam took everything easily while Gus was only proficient with trailing by 11 months and at 16 months is still having issues with area search and articles. So much so that I've stopped that training to focus on his trailing. I will probably give it another go once he gets older but right now it's on hold.


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## Misty Wegner

I think you brought up some excellent points Sarah! Pushing a dog for certification purposes can be more then just detrimental to the lost soul they are supposed to find.. Long term damage to young joints, and/or too much pressure causing emotional /training issues down the road. Pudding brain, lol... My area search /HRD in training dog is in that mode right now! My trail dog seems to thrive on the track, but I'm very conscientious of her joints and that at any moment she can run into some juvenile plateaus... 

This makes curious as to the reasoning behind certain methods of training...? While some methods (that term used to incorporate regimens, training styles etc) encourage the dog to move forward and be comfortable in negatives (well to at least not fret if scent is lost), other ways encourage the scent to never be lost and are slow and methodical. Obviously neither way has a monopoly on perfection, but perhaps the reasoning in a slower way is to allow for mental and emotional maturity and physical growth.. The other shall we say faster moving way allows for learning and freedom of movement but a careful monitoring of how hard the fog is being pushed is necessary... 

This great guys I appreciate your interaction and sharing your experiences


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## Nicole Stark

Sarah/Misty, regarding joint damage what specific terrain/training situation is of concern to you and what has your personal experience been with this?


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## Misty Wegner

Well hard running, especially in hard surfaces like asphalt/concrete is hard at any age, but especially when a young dog is still in its developmental stage. But putting an eager dog to work at a young age even on soft terrain like wilderness (grass, dirt etc) requires monitoring, as a high drive dog can easily be worked to hard due to their drive nature. They are very much like little kids..

I have been blessed thus far with my Shepherds, and haven't had any joint problems outside of old age arthritis. Unfortunately, I do know others who have pushed their dogs in other venues as well and had some issues earlier in the dogs life then expected. Also, with trailing /tracking, there is usually a decent amount of pressure through the line to the harness which of course will be translated into the dogs shoulders, chest, back, and legs ultimately.. It is our line of communication, but if you have dog like mine or sounds like Sarah's, it wants to move forward at a decent pace and pulls HARD if being restricted, lol.. That can be hard for any dog at any time, but couple that with a head down (usually) position and covering uneven terrain, jumping logs, quick changes of direction, etc and it just behooves us to be cautious and alert to our growing dogs, and at any age. 

That's how I see it, however, I am sure there are those with much more experience who can give a better perspective and reasons


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## Nicole Stark

Misty Wegner said:


> requires monitoring, as a high drive dog can easily be worked to hard due to their drive nature. They are very much like little kids..


Oh yes, like that woman that made her grand daughter run around her dwelling as punishment for something relatively innocuous. She was literally ran into the ground and died. Requires monitoring. IMO the key aspect when working a dog and applies to dogs of all ages. I agree that common sense is necessary, although I think people tend to take the notion of not working young dogs in certain capacities out of fear of ruining them a little too far. Some dogs are simply genetically predisposed to be structural shittage.

BTW - I work my dogs mostly for my own self interests but with regard to your question my answer would follow similar to what Sarah already stated.


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## Misty Wegner

You brought up a good point in that while responsible for making sure we don't push too hard, it is possible for the opposite extreme to occur. Although for a working dog I doubt that likely to happen as a given goal is being pursued. Coddling the dog can be detrimental too... 

Hopefully, those pursuing a job for their dogs have picked structurally sound dogs (mentally and emotionally as well), so while damage could occur from over work at a young age (just as a point of reference for my idea of what is acceptable with my you old - she has done up to 1.3mile urban, and wilderness, is worked almost everyday, but distances and terrain vary. Not saying this is the example to follow by any means, but an idea of what I feel is acceptable for where she is at and capable of without damaging her... Or burning her out) it is less likely with a structurally sound dog. 

I am curious as to those who FST, or use scent pads but later move to a more forward (faster) style, how the dogs react. Do they remain methodical on the actual track, or do you find they naturally pick some speed up when allowed to move into fringe scent, or close to it? Again, when I first did SAR in the early 90's most everyone was tracking with my group with a few area search and of course HRD. Now, the group I am with is mostly area (although rarely called out in this capacity) and HRD, so my questions are to expand my knowledge from different areas and styles


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## Nicole Stark

I live in Alaska and tend to work my dogs not necessarily more frequently but generally harder and earlier than my friends have. They start trail work (not talking scenting but traveling) at about 5 months for prick eared (like the Dutch) or around 7-9 months for the mastiffs. With the mastiff I have now I started her on the earlier end of the spectrum and put 21 miles on her in three days. 

I did this partly because of how the dog was bred, which is ultimately how and why she ended up with me. I won't get into that but she's held up exceptionally well. Her last x ray was done when she was about 7 1/2 and she will be 9 soon (thoroughly x rayed twice), hips x rayed 3 times. I estimate she has about 1500+ miles on her and the majority of time has been spent in the wilderness. This photo isn't that interesting unless you know that she was climbing up a high river bank that was about 70-80 degrees. If you click on it you will get a better view of the climb and how much effort she put into getting up it.



Regarding your questions:

_I am curious as to those who FST, or use scent pads but later move to a more forward (faster) style, how the dogs react. Do they remain methodical on the actual track, or do you find they naturally pick some speed up when allowed to move into fringe scent, or close to it?_ 

I found both to occur depending upon the environment, weather, and what the actual scent is. In her particular case since I have more time into her with scent related work, she was allowed to explore extensively in the wilderness for her first 14-18 months. At the time I wasn't all that interested in anything to do with scent related work but I started noticing interesting things from her. Out of curiosity I started FST with her and was surprised at how within 30 or less tracks she was successfully navigating aged tracks, 500+ paces, cross tracks, etc. 

When we moved to HRD she adapted surprisingly well and within one day was completing searches with nearly the same proficiency as certified dogs were. If I hadn't seen it I wouldn't have believed it, the instructors said the same thing. They had never seen anything like it before.


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> what is the 'average' time you find it takes to get a dog to a certifiable level (obviously taking into consideration every dog and situation is different?


Why the focus on certifications and the age attained?


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## Misty Wegner

Just curious if different areas (countries) had distinct differences, nothing more. Certification is important, but secondary to consistency and a steady proven track record, imho. Often a rush for certification causes more problems then not, and yet, there are those that feel it takes 2yrs or more to train a trustworthy trail dog. I'm in neither camp. Each dog team is different, some can and should be certified in 9mos of consistent work, others may need that 2yrs for their confidence (usually the humans). Again, my questions are out of curiosity, I don't have the community of tracker/trailers I used to have and my curiosity in these areas has grown.


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## Bob Scott

Starting with FST and going to real world tracking is no problem.

I started with real world (SAR) and then to FST.

It was a royal PIA but it eventually worked out.


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## Nicole Stark

Bob, as I mentioned my experience wasn't the same but then again I wasn't competing or certifying the dog. Had I, perhaps I would be reporting something else entirely. I'll never know. Anyway, I've seen you write about this before and wonder, when you did trial what were your scores? Tracking specifically.


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## Bob Scott

The last time I trialed was '08 I believe. 

My lowest tracking score was 81. He stopped at both articles, turned and looked at me and then continued on with a sort of "pick that up on your way through" look on his face. 

I jokingly said to the judge (Mike West) "Well, he DID indicate where they were". 

Mike laughed and said "No deal but he could be a 100 pt dog if you straighten that out". 

High tracking score was 91. 

Corners were his usual point loss. He almost always went past then circled once, sometimes lifting his head to air scent (shudder, shudder) and picked up the track right away.

I just didn't enjoy sport tracking after doing the real deal in SAR. 

Being the first dog I ever trained with markers, I was happy with what we did but I just didn't enjoy sport tracking after doing the real deal in SAR. 

Different as apples and oranges!

He was excellent on a track when allowed to do it naturally without the sports rules. :lol:


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole Stark said:


> Sarah/Misty, regarding joint damage what specific terrain/training situation is of concern to you and what has your personal experience been with this?


My personal experience has been one of avoidance. I've never ('knock on wood') had a significant injury. But I've had dogs come back with sore shoulders and wrists. Pads worn down to blood by the surface - common if you encourage your dog to pull on the trail - or if the dog has a foot that drags, and more pad injuries.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Sarah, what are possible reasons for a dog having one foot that drags (not consistently, just now and then, whether fresh or rested)?


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## Misty Wegner

I have Areli adjusted periodically just to be sure her shoulders and back aren't getting sore/out of whack due to any pull. I keep a steady pressure, but I try to keep it to les then a pound of pressure unless she wants to run and it's dangerous. I know others that keep the 'stance', setting way back and having the dog lean into the harness hard. I personally don't subscribe to that line of thought, although it works well for those who use it. 

I would think the possibility of worn pads on gravel, asphalt and concrete could be a potential if the dog pulls hard and often.. Ouch..


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## Sarah Platts

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Sarah, what are possible reasons for a dog having one foot that drags (not consistently, just now and then, whether fresh or rested)?


It could happen for several reasons. Whether mechanical ( structure/body) or environment (uneven surface). I am not including the gait in diagnosing injury or other issue although that's well known. 

How a dog moves naturally can be vastly different then how it moves in harness. If pulling under tension the front legs will tend to paddle foot more and the back legs tend to drag forward versus the leg being picked up/raised before moving forward. Also as the dog tires, it will not raise its legs as high and again tend to drag the toes. 

I wasn't noticing the foot mechanics when I first started until I started looking at the nail growth when I trim their feet. Dogs that pace, instead of trotting when they are working tend to wear down the nails on the inboard side versus the outside of their paws. 

If you ever think you are walking straight and square go look at the wear patterns on the soles of your shoes.


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## Nicole Stark

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Sarah, what are possible reasons for a dog having one foot that drags (not consistently, just now and then, whether fresh or rested)?


Meg, I know you asked Sarah but I wanted to answer as well. My experience is that it can be attributed to a dogs particular hip set or joint/tendon anomalies due either to injury or genetics (HD for example). Another reason is an overall physical imbalance/poor conformation of the dog that makes it prone to injury. I don't, nor will I ever buy into the notion or side with the camp that says I don't care what it looks like. I do and I always will. The reason why is simple. It's kinda like the stupid is as stupid does statement.

BTW, I have something for you. I had some personal issues come up and I was out of state for a while but, just know that I haven't forgotten. 

LOL, I saw we responded at the same time. About the movement of a dog. Something that may be common but I had never seen before was what my mastiff does with her foot falls, they fall right into one another. They have ever since I noticed it at about a year or so of age and still do. I speculate it's part of the reason why she's held up as well as she has. When tracking certain wild animals I've noticed that they often do the same.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Yes, I think wolves single track. 
Nicole, I don't feel forgotten. Pretty busy here too. 
My dog does area search and is a go-getter (Mal). But I was in the city a week ago and I could hear her nails scuff on the pavement once in a while (didn't seem to be any pattern and wasn't often). I've never had her xrayed and she is just 4. When I read Sarah's comment, it just made me wonder. Apologies for digressing from the original topic. It's all good reading.


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## Bob Scott

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Sarah, what are possible reasons for a dog having one foot that drags (not consistently, just now and then, whether fresh or rested)?



Not to answer for Sarah but a leg dragging could possibly be a nerve damaged or bruised. 

Most injuries cause pain and the dog will lift the leg as opposed to dragging it. 

Not even close to being a vet so this is just an old farts thoughts. :wink:


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## Nicole Stark

To add to this, it could be as simple as the dog turning (or even dropping) it's head to look at something and in doing so rolling ever so slightly off balance just long enough for that to happen. Imagine the flow of movement down the top line as a dog may turn to the left, more weight transfers to the front right and as the torso dips a bit the rear leg coming forward would be at a slightly lower position. 

If the dog appears otherwise sound and you are curious about it, when you have the opportunity video her in action and slow it down.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Bob & Nicole, good ideas. It is super important that she be/stay sound so she can work. This is why I like this forum. Different points of view, new info I hadn't considered... taking it all in....


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## Misty Wegner

Makes me think that I will make a monthly check of wear and tear on the nails ;see if any unevenness is ever occurring. If so, I would then have to see if it is due to my handling, her gait, etc... Thus far, her nails appear even, however, I would love to wear a gopro camera while she works a long track to observe her gait, and a I'd I am missing any tells in her body language..


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## Misty Wegner

So I've been training my pup on some articles, usually socks (as that is what my subjects are willing to allow to be slobber on, lol), and she is doing well. She likes to carry the object for awhile (a few feet before I take it) triumphantly. Not sure if this is appropriate or not... I haven't buried any or put them high, but am open to suggestions on how to progress on articles/objects..


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## Bob Scott

Ideally you want a sit and bark or down and bark for an alert. 

Picking up an article can create problems.


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## Sarah Platts

You can take nail or similar and stake it down to prevent the dog from picking up and carrying. Are you doing any non-clothing items? Like car keys, wrist watch, cell phone, etc? Some dogs will mouth/pick up clothing items where they won't on the other items. Get the behavior down with non-clothing where you are not fighting the mouthing issue and when that's good start to bring in clothing items. If you don't want the mouth then be alert and right up on them so you can correct for the touching issue.

Alot of people do article initially as part of tracking so they have the line on the dog and can prevent the victory parade with the item.


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## Misty Wegner

Thanks Bob and Sarah!! Excellent ideas and easy enough to put into practice! She has been only on clothing, although she has been scented off sunglasses, wallets, etc, so I know she could go to abstract items without a problem... 

Unfortunately, I may have caused the problem by teaching her to retrieve and bring me items as a puppy (hindsight is always 20/20).. Using non clothing, as well as teaching an alert (she sits/lays down for HRD, so probably easy enough to back chain) are great ideas. I hadn't wanted to teach an alert initially thinking it would slow her drive on the scent, however, she is very easy to refocus if stopped for some reason, so it should be a no issue. 

THANKS!


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## Misty Wegner

OK, so I had a track laid at 10am and 87°f and run at 6pm 98°f.. Wind from sw about 3mph...suburban, along a busy road.. My girl found the subject, but never looked fully on until the end.. She took me the opposite direction air scenting (flowing with direct of wind) and due to my subject being unable to distinguish her left from her right, when I questioned my dogs commitment to the direction and was told that she was going correctly, we added 3/4 of a mile wrong!

Anyhow, she never quit, she kept trying, and once recast on the actual track into the wind (which had changed from the morning), she had moments where I could tell she had scent and moments where I wondered if the scent had dissipated due to heat, cars, etc... So my question is, how long does scent last (in general) in 98°f heat? We hit the 90's around noon... It is a dry heat.. She showed obvious scent alerts when we neared end of track but a scent pool had been created, it was in the shade, and by a river. The rest of the track was in the sun, by the busy road.. I'm wondering if due to the misdirection initially she had petered out, or if the scent had dissolved...?


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## Misty Wegner

She was well hydrated and rested 2x... So I was watching out for overheating in her.


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## mel boschwitz

That to me would be very unideal circumstances to run a track in. All afternoon hot weather like that would make the track much more difficult for a dog to detect. Ideally that track would have been run the next morning when the cool air and humidity had "pulled" the scent back down. Scent rises in heat and is attracted to cool and moist air. Hence the alerts when u got off the pavement and into the cooler, moist area where the subject was located. Add the cars pulling scent around and you have a very difficult scenario. 

Scent lasts as long as a dog can detect it. And what may be undetectable at one time of day, can become detectable at another time of day. Moisture in the air can play a huge factor as well. In hot, dry climates, I hear people talk about trails becoming undetectable in less time than the cooler, monster climates. 

When she was off trail was she still working like she was on trail? was she working a long distance off trail? Or go a little bit then give you a negative indication?


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## Misty Wegner

I knew it wasn't ideal when I did it... Kinda seized an opportunity when it was offered (hard to get subjects let alone aged tracks) and knew this would be a hard 'test'. My ideal would definitely be lay the track in evening and run in morning... 

She was sending mixed signals.. Never a clear hard indication that she was on track, but indications she was in scent. When she threw a couple of odd negatives (she is normally very easy to read) I questioned if we were on track or if it was the difficult conditions. So I contacted my subject and broke the blind aspect. She told me we were going the correct way... Unfortunately, she was wrong. 5x I contacted her to get a clear answer because at this point of going the wrong way, I really wasn't getting enough solid positives to believe we were correct... 5x she told me she turned 'left'.. 

Needless to say, she had turned' right '. Once I got my girl back into odor (which was the correct track), she would give muddled responses.. So again, I figured between the heat, fatigue, scent being destroyed or messed with by the heat and conditions that her on and off indications were due to the situation. She never quit, Im very proud of her for that. 

Definitely once conditions were better for scent she was obviously showing clear signs of being on track and found her subject... I am just unsure if the scent chain was broken, destroyed (how long can it last under these conditions?), or if run in the morning he next day the scent would have survived..? 

The next time I will definitely lay in evening and run in morning... Should I be able to get another subject willing to do double duty, lol...


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## mel boschwitz

I don't know where you are at but in Texas summers with 100+ degree heat and 30% humidity during the day a trail laid one morning and ran the next is still easily viable for us. On busy roads too. 

If I'm running a difficult scenario I won't run it blind until I know how my dog is going to handle it. Although in your case it probably wouldn't have mattered since your subject doesn't know left from right.


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## Sarah Platts

What Mel said, but scent lasts longer that most folks are comfortable knowing about. It really all comes down to the dog. If they can smell it, they can work it. Don't let how old it is make you determine if the dog can work it, let the dog determine if the dog can work it. And working conditions play a lot into the scent picture not so much the age.

Getting people to run trails and hang out at the end is a perennial problem. I'm assuming that you re-inserted the runner at the end. Sometimes you can't get someone to volunteer to come back. I'm going to assume that the dog has a good indication on the victim (if they are present at the end). If he does then what you really want is not the indication on the runner but the physical act and experience of working an aged trail. 

So just have the runner lay the trail and then let them leave. Make sure you collect a scent article from the runner at the time the trail is laid and be sure to tell the runner to not come back into the area until after you work the trail. Be that hours, days, or even weeks after the trail is laid. You can also work the same trail at different time of day or on different days. Since the trail direction and where the trail was laid has not changed, then you are looking how the variables (temp, time of day, humidity) make the scent change. This way you learn what this stuff does to odor but also lets you find out your dog's sweet spot on working conditions and what the scent does under different conditions.


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## Misty Wegner

Good ideas! Thanks Mel and Sarah  

This is her first summer working, she was born in May, so was not worked during summer months so learning her weak spots. I know she works well in cold, warm and warmer (up to 88f). She had difficulty with this trail, but a lot had to do with the misinformation and extra 1.5miles she worked before getting back on track. 

Yes, she has good indications and alerts on victim, so working a track laid without a subject is a good idea, since getting cooperative and efficient subjects is really really hard, lol..


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## Sarah Platts

If you have a gps, give it to the runner when they lay the trail. That way you can see exactly where they went. Blind trails have their place but when you are experimenting and building a base line of knowledge you should know exactly where the person went. I think a lot of your problem stemmed from the subject not going where you told them to and your body language saying "this isn't right" as well as that tension going down the lead to the dog.


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## Misty Wegner

I made several errors... I should have cast her at each corner rather than allow her to roll on through an air current scent, I should have acted on my misgivings earlier and recast her in known odor and I should have had the track laid in evening and worked in morning when cooler... Unfortunately, my helper just doesn't know her left from her right, lol... At least in directions.. It was blind so I hadn't told her where to go, just a PLS and a scent article dropped. 

When I use her again it will be with GPS, explicit instructions. Getting track layers is really hard let alone good ones, lol. Oh well, I learn from each and every exercise. Sometimes what not to do and sometimes what to do..


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## Bob Scott

When I was in SAR we had a couple of Scout groups that were usually willing to lay tracks for us. Check them out! :wink:


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## Misty Wegner

Thanks Bob! It's a good idea... I live I a rural area though, so I'm not sure we have a local scout group, but I'm sure there is some sort of group that may be willing... Great idea


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> I made several errors... I should have cast her at each corner rather than allow her to roll on through an air current scent, I should have acted on my misgivings earlier and recast her in known odor and I should have had the track laid in evening and worked in morning when cooler... Unfortunately, my helper just doesn't know her left from her right, lol... At least in directions.. It was blind so I hadn't told her where to go, just a PLS and a scent article dropped.
> 
> When I use her again it will be with GPS, explicit instructions. Getting track layers is really hard let alone good ones, lol. Oh well, I learn from each and every exercise. Sometimes what not to do and sometimes what to do..


Oh, Misty, we have all been there. And, in my case, there several times and I still visit now and again. Most people, even ones that should know better, tend to keep goofing up. GPS is surely your friend in times like this.


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## Misty Wegner

Thanks Sarah  Have a feeling I will be there many more times too... Hopefully never in a time when it really matters! I try to learn from my mistakes... Some are harder then others haha.. GPS is definitely my friend!


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## Bob Scott

Misty Wegner said:


> Thanks Bob! It's a good idea... I live I a rural area though, so I'm not sure we have a local scout group, but I'm sure there is some sort of group that may be willing... Great idea


Any close, summer time County Fairs coming up with 4H groups? 

Just a thought! :wink:


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## Misty Wegner

In late August we will have our fair. Because I have students (equine) I will be on the fair grounds the whole time and will run some tracks then. LOTS of distractions, and hopefully some new subjects


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## Misty Wegner

Since the last post when Bob mentioned the fair.... 

We have worked numerous successful trails since the last mess up trail posted (lol). Aged 12hrs, urban, long, water crossings, etc.. When the fair come to our neck of the woods I seized the opportunity. Unfortunately, I live in the PNW and the fires are HORRIFIC (unfortunate about the fires not living in the PNW) so when I had my track laid the air was ridiculously smokey (the sun was fluorescent pink and it looked like we had heavy for... Brown fog). I had the same track layer as the last time (when will I learn?! Lol!). It was a semi blind track as I gave her the first leg out of the fair and onto the main city road. From that point she could go where she pleased. 

We had tons of cars, animals, people and heat once again... Dry heat... So I let it age about 15 minutes, not much but I wasn't sure under the conditions how things would go.. She took her scent article, was cast and quickly located a scent, she weaved through parked cars and headed up the correct Street I knew should be done... Here is where I once again did a stupid human trick.. Areli indicated at a street that the scent went to the right.. I in my infinite knowledge cast her across the street (because we all know tracklayers, especially this one, do what their told... NOT!).. She gave me a negative, I told the person following me that she doesn't have scent, but she wanted to go right earlier... Must be blown scent... REALLY? Trust your dog... Trust your dog, trust your dog, TRUST YOUR DOG!!! Anyhow, do you my assuming my track layer followed directions I gave a 'good girl', Areli sniffed the air and moved forward with several negatives (good Lord I'm an idiot, lol).. Thankfully it was a short Street and the wind was now blowing into us, she turned right and moved South.. She was air scenting and I knew it, but under the conditions and my stupid move (which at the time I didn't know for sure if it was as stupid as I thought it might be..) it was appropriate... We worked down several streets and to a Les Schwab, around the building and skirting another. My subject had brought a dog along and he gave a little yip when he saw us about 25ft from them and so Areli just moved that way... 

Of course when I asked my subject which direction she went she had turned down the street Areli wanted to go right on... Alas, no matter how many successful tracks you run, distance, age, VST, urban, suburban, whatever, inevitably a bone head move will show forth... And it is usually (always) ME! 

Another lesson learned... But why do I think I know more than my dog on the scent? I realize my job is to read her, to analyze terrain, help her when she gets 'lost'. We are a good team, but I'm the weakest link and it irks me... OK, rant over lol...


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## Nicole Stark

Awesome. I want to be one of your track layers. I am excellent at not following instructions. Do you think your track layer has picked up on something you haven't, yet?

Nice follow up by the way.


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## Misty Wegner

Lol! Well, outside of when I screw up and ignore my dog, when my subject has a head in the clouds moment and doesn't do what she has been asked and I listen to my dog, we inevitably get better... Problem is, sometimes you are trying to work on a particular thing. When the tracklayer doesn't do what is asked (or tells you they went the direction they didn't go...) it can actually cause problems... Do to my inconsistent tracklayer I have gotten much better at trusting my dog (usually)...


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## Bob Scott

:-k:-k:-k:-k "TRUST YOUR DOG". :-k:-k:-k:-k

Dern if that doesn't sound like a familiar term in the dog tracking world. :grin: :grin: :wink:

Sounds like you still did an outstanding job though. \\/

One thought

Often times when you know exactly where the track layer went you can unconsciously try and guide the dog.


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## Nicole Stark

Misty Wegner said:


> Lol! Well, outside of when I screw up and ignore my dog, when my subject has a head in the clouds moment and doesn't do what she has been asked and I listen to my dog, we inevitably get better... Problem is, sometimes you are trying to work on a particular thing. When the tracklayer doesn't do what is asked (or tells you they went the direction they didn't go...) it can actually cause problems... Do to my inconsistent tracklayer I have gotten much better at trusting my dog (usually)...


You know in a round about way, that set of comments I made about the struggle of left and right, and the task of figuring out which is right was one way of broadly painting a set of problems I first heard referred to via the shooting community as "training scars". A specific way of thinking, working, training, artifacts of measurement, etc.

I learned to shoot with practice of course, but as far as my fundamentals go? I got them in an email from a friend, just a few sentences that I printed out and took with me on my first day of practice. I still have them tucked away in my travel bag. Turns out every problem I ever created for myself on the range comes down to a failure to follow one of those basic instructions I was given. 

Shortly after I started, I stumbled upon a chart on line that broke down round placement and typical causes for each based upon location. Right away I noticed a pattern, the typical sources of the failures on the chart and the instructions I saved read the same. I read those instructions enough times before I had any sense about what I was doing to realize that when I discovered that chart, I found a connection to deepening my understanding about my control over where my rounds went. I knew when things were going wrong but until then I didn't understand why.

Is the type of work we do with our dogs similar in that largely it comes down to a set of fundamentals? Does the possibility exist that we also can develop training scars when working with dogs? Certainly.

I like what you said. Trust your dog. 

There is a freedom in doing that, although as you said if there's a set of expectations before you - that can be hard to adhere to and achieve presumed mutually agreed upon goals when things don't go right. I got lucky in that regard, I spent hours, weeks, years just watching my dog do what she liked to do. Long before I knew I needed to, I had learned to trust my dog.

The best thing about things not going right is you always have a safeguard. It's trusting your dog. Obviously, I'm not giving props to an absentminded track layer LOL, just encouragement to you when things don't go quite as planned.


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## Misty Wegner

Bob - you are absolutely right! I've stopped doing known tracks for the most part. This was a partially known track due to the circumstances and the fact my track layer isn't Uh, top-notch. Just the first leg was known. I tend to run blind tracks way more often due to the absolute need to trust my dog and keep developing great communication and reading her skills.. 

Nicole - I had liked your analogy of being ambidextrous (wish I was!). Ironically, when my dog was just learning I trusted her more in some ways, lol... Not saying I don't trust her now.. She is a very very good dog and doesn't really give me reason not to trust her... Hence why it is so frustrating that I make the judgment call even when she has clearly told me odor is one way, to cross the street, lol... 

Fundamentals are a huge part, I agree. Probably something that has to be readdressed throughout life to keep sharp in. Trust is built, developed, proven out... But when a bone head like myself makes a bad call due to preconceived expectations without trusting my dog (with clear signs I should), I question why I did it..? I'm not beating myself up over it.. I know the mistake was made, she overcame it and did her job, and I hopefully have learned from it... I just wonder why I aborted my trust in favor of 'knowledge of direction'. If I was with someone knowledgeable , I could see myself doing it in fear of making a mistake and being reprimanded for 'pushing my dog' too hard.. But I wasn't.. So why didn't I let her investigate the odor like I usually would? Just trying to work out my quirks, lol..


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## Nicole Stark

Get comfortable being uncomfortable.

I think it's a normal thing for people to trust their dog before they get to the point that they should be looking for opportunities to train to a higher level. This is when it's most likely that the fundamentals will or can start to fall away. 

When I took my mastiff to an HRD seminar I had no expectation except one thing, I knew I trusted her ability implicitly. The only time she "failed" me was when the source was pig bone. So I can relate to where you are coming from, had it been just me and the dog, based upon her body language alone I would have moved on but I was encouraged to keep at it.

Why did I? Because I, like most people here, was conditioned to listen to authority figures. And, of course sometimes the ego takes over and becomes an authority too. As I said, the act of letting go and trusting your dog is liberating. 

Separately, the officers and developed SAR/HR crew might say that what you did was right given your objective. I couldn't say either way what advice they'd give. I know this though, I've spent enough time with my mastiff, with and without threats to know that no matter the situation I need to trust my dog. 

She did something interesting recently. I never even realized that she was paying attention as the boat ride to my remote property is about 90 minutes and can be uneventful. One day, due to the water conditions I decided to take a different route slightly before the finger of the river I usually travel down. As I did that she lifted her head, scented, and then stood up. She looked around, scented some more and then laid back down. She knew that the usual path had been deviated from but, she also appeared to recognize that the chosen path wasn't new. Had it been, she wouldn't have laid down - that's her pattern.

She doesn't respond the same to channel changes or cut across patterns on the same river, which is why I thought it was interesting. It seemed GSPish. I am sure there's a very obvious explanation for why she did that. Either way it was cool to see.


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## Nicole Stark

Separate note - to the person who sent me a pm please email me at [email protected] i am unable to respond as your wdf account is set to not accept a response


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## Misty Wegner

It's cool how dogs do seem to have a natural GPS.. Your mastiff sounds awesome! Would love to see him work. 

If I had been with my team and they didn't know the tracklayer had made the right earlier then she should have, I would have been told my dog is off track if I had gone with the scent indication my dog gave.. Thing is I made the choice, lol and I normally never do that! I like to let my dog investigate and earn from making her choices. If she gives a clear negative (except this time) I would help her back to scent, she usually starts casting herself and I redirect if she can't find the trail. 

I agree pressure from others for sure can mess with your confidence in yourself, and your dog.. 

Did a track today in the forest. About a mile. Still sooooo smokey, blind and aged an hour and a half. Wind was about 9mph from San, 20% humidity and about 78°f. She worked the trail up to 30ft off the actual track, and due to the steady wind and gusts, it made perfect sense. She gave clear negatives, obvious positive in odor indications and I don't believe I hindered her at all, Yay! Lol.. She is a kick to work and I am blessed to have her. 

On a side... My other dog who is 5 weeks older but a malamute /gsd had started in trail, was told to go to air scent by my team, and then I focused on my other dog, he worked some HR. Anyhow, he has felt left out, so I had a short suburban track laid for him. He took a moment to get into it, but dropped his nose on the asphalt and moved with a purpose, I encouraged him and he focused and even got excited when the track moved to dirt (which was easier to follow). He found his subject and was at first a bit tentative to move in (No alert has been taught except for area search) but felt my encouragement and moved in. His reward was big and long and he trotted around like he was an Olympic gold winner.. I will keep doing some short tracks for him and see I he digs in and starts proving out..


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## Bob Scott

"She doesn't respond the same to channel changes or cut across patterns on the same river, which is why I thought it was interesting. It seemed GSPish. I am sure there's a very obvious explanation for why she did that. Either way it was cool to see".


I certainly believe many dogs have that natural instinct to find their way back from places they have never been.

In the 80s I had a Nationally ranked dog in AKC obedience that couldn't find his way home if he walked around the corner of the block we lived on..... and he proved exactly that ](*,)

I think my present younger GSD would be the same. :roll:

My older GSD is "Lassie Come Home" reincarnated.


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## Nicole Stark

I don't know about the Dutch. I never did any tracking with her… ok once I did. Anyway, I've seen that bitch catch a track and take off running, nose down after it. First time I seen it I thought that's odd, who taught you that.

Finding their way back from an unknown location is a little different IMO then knowing how to get to where I plan on going no matter the starting or end point. How is it that she knows I'm going to the bear stand or swamp instead of to the abandoned cabin of Koz and Peppers? Why not down to the creek, after all she's leading the way and all the way she somehow seems to always know where it is I want to go.

Who knows, unfortunately there isn't enough time in her life left for me to understand it or figure it out.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Maybe she noticed what you were packing/wearing/taking as cues to which place was destination. Or maybe she read your mind/heart.


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## Misty Wegner

I think dogs are so amazingly good at reading subtle body language and nuances... Why it is so easy to get into trouble in tracking /trailing with a really sensitive dog.. They are great at reading routines too, well before we even know we are doing a routine, lol


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## Bob Scott

Ditto with Meg and Misty!

Dogs easily learn the difference between leashes. what coat your putting on for what job or duties your getting ready for, etc 

Some even figure out what day your doing what with them and get excited before you give it a though. 

:-k OR, your dog has YOU better trained then you have trained the dog. 

"I'm gonna turn left here and make her follow me". :twisted: :wink:


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## Nicole Stark

Naw, where she goes there are no leashes. My attire changes but since I am usually wearing a sweatshirt, I don't put on coats. The trails go for miles and have splits in them, all of the splits are for a purpose. Some lead into where trees have fallen. Before getting to it she seems to know it and has gone the other way. 

Me, more than once I found myself moving on and then I realize why she wasn't following the more well traveled path. It was something else (not my queues) that prompted her to do that. I couldn't see it. Her behaviors and the decisions appear to me to be more complex than it sounds. It's more wild type behavior.

Could be I see this as more complex than it is but I think it's more than just picking up on queues or habits since we're only traveling and not doing anything other than what she wants to do, which is explore. I don't even know how much my queues matter to her. My only known queue would be to make a decision to change direction, turn around and not reach a destination except to go back to where we started or choose a different destination. 

She's spent a lot of time in that environment. We talk about things becoming part of the scent picture and I think that is part of what's going on. For her first 7 years she roamed freely, took herself places she wanted to go. Who knows what she was doing or who she was keeping company with but she'd bring things back from wherever it was she went. 

Bones, trachea, guts, fat, hoofs with fur and the first part of a leg. I used to say to people, if you've got bones or remains on your property she'll find it. I think she knows the area better than I do and it's part of why or how she navigates it as well as she does. It's like having my own tour guide to show me around and see the sights. 

Bitch. She DOES have me trained well. I'm going to stop following her. Maybe even get us lost on purpose, and see how she likes that!


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## Bob Scott

"Bitch. She DOES have me trained well. I'm going to stop following her. Maybe even get us lost on purpose, and see how she likes that!"

Betcha can't! :lol:


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## Nicole Stark

Bob Scott said:


> "Bitch. She DOES have me trained well. I'm going to stop following her. Maybe even get us lost on purpose, and see how she likes that!"
> 
> Betcha can't! :lol:


Get lost on purpose or stop following her? :???:


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## Jim OBrien

I think the answer to your question is really dependent on several things. The first thing I would look at is, what kind of drive you are working with?Assuming you are working with a dog with the ability and desire to excel as a working dog, I always start a dog with tracking through drive training. As I police canine trainer, most of the dogs we import do very well with that type of training and pick up it on very quickly. However, some dogs are very visual and will attempt to "cheat" in the beginning stages and become dependent on watching your track layer run away. With those dogs we use a far different approach. 
The second thing regarding speed would be safety. If you are tracking criminals speed is a major concern. I always teach our students to track at a speed that they can still be tactical and a speed that their back up units can keep up with. For most Law Enforcement officers, running a track is usually not the best option, but a good steady speed so as not to disinterest the dog is.


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## Bob Scott

Nicole Stark said:


> Get lost on purpose or stop following her? :???:



Get HER lost. You said get US both lost. :grin:

If you get both of you lost I'll also bet you give great consideration to following her then cause I doubt she'd be lost.......or you for that matter. :lol: :wink:


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## Bob Scott

Jim OBrien said:


> I think the answer to your question is really dependent on several things. The first thing I would look at is, what kind of drive you are working with?Assuming you are working with a dog with the ability and desire to excel as a working dog, I always start a dog with tracking through drive training. As I police canine trainer, most of the dogs we import do very well with that type of training and pick up it on very quickly. However, some dogs are very visual and will attempt to "cheat" in the beginning stages and become dependent on watching your track layer run away. With those dogs we use a far different approach.
> The second thing regarding speed would be safety. If you are tracking criminals speed is a major concern. I always teach our students to track at a speed that they can still be tactical and a speed that their back up units can keep up with. For most Law Enforcement officers, running a track is usually not the best option, but a good steady speed so as not to disinterest the dog is.




Jim, what is your suggestion for slowing down a dog without killing drive that wants to drag the handler?


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## Nicole Stark

Bob Scott said:


> Get HER lost. You said get US both lost. :grin:
> 
> If you get both of you lost I'll also bet you give great consideration to following her then cause I doubt she'd be lost.......or you for that matter. :lol: :wink:


Huh? Normally, we can do our lefty speak but that went over my head. Are you suggesting I dump her off somewhere and leave? :???:


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## Jim OBrien

I slow them down over time. If you go from a straight run to a slow walk you will definitely break the drive. Do this slowly and find a speed that works for that particular dog. I tell my guys to pretend they are the lady that speed walks on Sunday morning! That is usually a good pace for both the dog and actually catching the bad guy. I also teach from the very beginning that the lead always has tension on it. The fact that the dog is used to tension on the lead will really help when adding more tension to slow him. We also train tension on the lead to prevent the dog from getting wrapped into the lead when it goes slack and to prevent unnecessary "corrections" or "lead popping" from young handlers learning leash control. The trick to slowing them down is patience, patience, patience. I recently did a tracking seminar for a large agency in Florida that was having speed issues. All of the dogs have had increased success of the streets since they slowed the dogs down. The increased lead tension will also increase the dogs desire to drive forward, as it does in bite work.


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## Jim OBrien

Jim OBrien said:


> I slow them down over time. If you go from a straight run to a slow walk you will definitely break the drive. Do this slowly and find a speed that works for that particular dog. I tell my guys to pretend they are the lady that speed walks on Sunday morning! That is usually a good pace for both the dog and actually catching the bad guy. I also teach from the very beginning that the lead always has tension on it. The fact that the dog is used to tension on the lead will really help when adding more tension to slow him. We also train tension on the lead to prevent the dog from getting wrapped into the lead when it goes slack and to prevent unnecessary "corrections" or "lead popping" from young handlers learning leash control. The trick to slowing them down is patience, patience, patience. I recently did a tracking seminar for a large agency in Florida that was having speed issues. All of the dogs have had increased success of the streets since they slowed the dogs down. The increased lead tension will also increase the dogs desire to drive forward, as it does in bite work.





Bob Scott said:


> Jim, what is your suggestion for slowing down a dog without killing drive that wants to drag the handler?


I slow them down over time. If you go from a straight run to a slow walk you will definitely break the drive. Do this slowly and find a speed that works for that particular dog. I tell my guys to pretend they are the lady that speed walks on Sunday morning! That is usually a good pace for both the dog and actually catching the bad guy. I also teach from the very beginning that the lead always has tension on it. The fact that the dog is used to tension on the lead will really help when adding more tension to slow him. We also train tension on the lead to prevent the dog from getting wrapped into the lead when it goes slack and to prevent unnecessary "corrections" or "lead popping" from young handlers learning leash control. The trick to slowing them down is patience, patience, patience. I recently did a tracking seminar for a large agency in Florida that was having speed issues. All of the dogs have had increased success of the streets since they slowed the dogs down. The increased lead tension will also increase the dogs desire to drive forward, as it does in bite work.


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## Bob Scott

Thanks Jim!


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## Misty Wegner

I'm sure heavy line pressure is comforting to the PD. For SAR, however, I don't like having too much line pressure, although slowing down is nice... My girl likes a steady jog which of course equates to a rather fast jog for me.. We compromise and walk fast 30yrds or so and jog 30yrds or so, this usually works... She is sensitive in some ways and very solid in others.. The line can get stepped on or snagged and she will look to see if it was a correction if she is on fringe scent, but other times when she is hot on a track she looks at me like 'hurry up and get it together'!)... I rarely ever line check her (maybe if she flushes a deer or turkey and makes an initial jump I will post hard with an' out')... She has slowed down a lot since her first tracks which were all run (starting her at 10mos gave her speed, yikes!) and I see a maturity coming which I like..


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## Sarah Platts

Misty,

Tension can mean many things. Everything from light pressure to hold-on-to-your-hats-Boys! So it's nothing against anyone but more a general statement that tension is a good thing.

There are alot of novice and not so novice folks who let the line drag or really droop which you should not. The line is like a telegraph wire and you can sense alot of stuff just by the tension on the line. Especially when it dark. I can tell the dog slowing down, turns, etc just by the feel in the line. If a handler doesn't keep some kind of tension on the lead, you will miss all that. It's not meant to you personally.


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## Misty Wegner

Agreed, the line is a seriously important line of communication which can be ineffective if left droopy .. I guess without a guideline of what I consider alot of pressure my statement could be taken many ways.. I tend to keep about a pound of pressure on my line unless asking a question (are you sure this is the correct path? Are you strong in the odor? Etc) in which, depending on question including rating speed the amount of pressure is applied more... Not that I'm saying it's wrong to work the way I've seen (people totally set back on the line, basically using their whole body as an anchor the whole time) others, but it isn't how I like to work mine... 

Anyhow, now that little context is in place maybe my previous statement makes a little more sense


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## Bob Scott

The tension on the line can have a lot to do with the individual dog. 

My older GSD was very steady on line and didn't walk much faster then I did in sport tracking so I held the line over my head. 

In SAR work he was always off lead unless in a busy traffic area. He moved much quicker, sometimes at a dead run when on scent because he would be quartering the field, woods, etc then.

Some dogs can be sensitive to line pressure and that can be as big an issue as to tight of a line. 

Often worse.


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## Misty Wegner

Good point Bob.. Line pressure is definitely an art form, imho.. Too much and you can cause issues, too little and you may not have enough communication to convey your thoughts to the dog... There are those that are hard and fast as to amount of weight and posture in the line and those that adapt to the circumstances at hand.. Both can be successful and allow the dogs to work at their optimum.. Very cool to me to see the differences and why one does what they do


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