# Natural vs Artificial environment



## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

So from a thread where egos got the best of few people, I found this quite interesting. Since that thread is now locked, I thought it might be expanded on here. 

This was in regards to Hip Dysplasia: 



> The damage starts when they are whelped and raised in a box with not enough padding, then they graduate to learning to walk on a slick floor, then they go to a hard flat surface that continually drive the ball in the socket. Remember, the bones don't solidify until the dog quits growing. That is a lot of time for damage up to what, 18 mo.


This makes sense to me. So I was wondering about other stuff that artificial environment may be detrimental for compared to a natural environment. Even the favourite topic, ENS. How much more would they get in the wild vs in an airconditioned living room with sound reducing walls, lack of different smells compared to outdoors, etc., etc...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> So from a thread where egos got the best of few people, I found this quite interesting. Since that thread is now locked, I thought it might be expanded on here.
> 
> This was in regards to Hip Dysplasia:
> 
> ...


Also view the A/C for what is does, removes many allergy causing elements from the air. The feel of grass on young skin and looking for skin reactions, carpets can contain chemicals which can cause issues. I'm feel if the dog is going to live o/s that it needs to experience all things connected to its world.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Also view the A/C for what is does, removes many allergy causing elements from the air. The feel of grass on young skin and looking for skin reactions, carpets can contain chemicals which can cause issues. I'm feel if the dog is going to live o/s that it needs to experience all things connected to its world.


Howard, I can never really tell what you are trying to say. Is removing the allergens a good thing or a bad thing? O/s dogs need to experience all things connected to life. Sounds kind of metaphysical. What "all things". A/C units and cental air both remove all the moisture from the air. Is that good or bad.

Sanda. let's start at the beginning. Pups are born inside in whelping boxes today. The boxes have flat, hard bottoms. The pus are either laying out separately in the box or they are all piled up on the few. Either way, they need some heavy padding under the hip. The padding also lessens the trauma a pup may suffer from mom accidentally laying on the back of the pup. Then the pup is learning how to walk. Slick floors is asking for trouble. It is no laughing matter when the pups legs splay straight out to the side. Dogs are not built for this and to get an adult dog into this position, you would have to break something. Next, as the pup grows, he is putting on a lot of weight. The hind quarters is heavy. Laying on the hard flat floors in a house drives the ball all the way into the socket and, at this age, the musclature is not there to give any support. As the pup moves around to get comfortable, close your eyes and picture the ball wallowing around in the socket of the hip totally unsupported. It hyas to be wearing the pad between the tow out that keeps the hip from being bone against bone. Dogs, like people have a preferred side to lay on. Finally, at about two, you have them exrayed. You have a good hip and a fair hip, or a similar combination. The lower scoring side will be the one the dog lays on most the time. It should have raised a red flag decades ago as to why you have so many dogs with two different quality hips because that is not the way genetics works. The cause to get two differnt ratings on the same dog has to be environmental. Too much money being made. Hips have become an obsession to the point that they worry bout their dogs hip more than their kids hips. As I said, the majority of both species will have "average" hips at birth.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Finally, at about two, you have them exrayed. You have a good hip and a fair hip, or a similar combination. The lower scoring side will be the one the dog lays on most the time. It should have raised a red flag decades ago as to why you have so many dogs with two different quality hips because that is not the way genetics works. The cause to get two differnt ratings on the same dog has to be environmental. Too much money being made. Hips have become an obsession to the point that they worry bout their dogs hip more than their kids hips. As I said, the majority of both species will have "average" hips at birth.


I do not agree with this. I have seen dogs with one ear that is soft while the other stands straight, one eye that is not clear while the other one is clear, one elbow that is not normal while the other is normal, and one hip that is very good while the other hip is not so good. I have seen dogs born with a dewclaw on one rear leg and no dewclaw on the other, with a P1 tooth missing on one side and the P1 in place on the other side. 
I believe that bad hips are genetic, whether it be one hip that is bad or both. I have seen too many dogs raised on slick surfaces that had great hips, backs and elbows. 
In the winter, our puppies are born inside in our whelping boxes with a plastic bottom covered with newspapers. 
After about 10 days they are moved outside in a large dog house filled with pine shavings. At about 5 weeks they are usually separated and in the summer they go into concrete runs. In the winter they go into runs with pine shavings to keep them warmer than the concrete. When the weather warms they go onto concrete floors. They live on concrete in the outdoor runs, concrete in the indoor runs with a fiberglass resting pad. We have had only 2 dogs born in our kennel with bad hips, one was a GSD, the other was a GSD X DS cross. I consider both to be genetic, if it were caused by this environment I would have 500 with bad hips.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike first let me ask, How are the hips on most of the dogs you bring in for breeding?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike first let me ask, How are the hips on most of the dogs you bring in for breeding?


Our dogs are evaluated by an FCI hip evaluator in Europe first, then they are screened by my vet here who is an orthopedic specialist. Most of our breeding dogs are further evaluated by the vet for US Customs and Border Patrol for a third opinion. If their is any question by any of the three vets then the dog is not used for breeding. More than once I have had dogs here with OFA "good" hips that we decided not to breed with because our vets pointed out some areas of consern. I just got a GSD X rayed today and my vet was telling me about an OFA "good" dog that was terrible according to the Penn HIP protocal. So to answer your question, before any of our dogs are bred with their hips are evaluated by several (3) vets and if there is ever any question then the dogs are not bred.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ok. I am going to guess you have excellents in there also. 
To start with, the bits about soft ears and different colored eyes, as many discussions as you have had on dogs, I would have expected you know that there are no aboslutes. Does the norm, or average Mal have one soft ear, or bi colored eyes. No. To help understand, I should have reposted this post from the other thread Mike

"HD and other things will never be cured. Y'all are living in a dream world if you think it is. Most dogs like people have, as a norm, average hips. I have said this before. The greatest percentage is AVERAGE. That is why it is called AVERAGE. Not good, not poor, just average. A lower # are lucky enough to have perfect hips for the rest of their build. A lower #, likewise, are the unlucky ones that are born with crap hips for their structure. How long hips last depends on life. They can slip, they can fall, they can do any number of things just like we can to damage a hip so it doesn't last into old age. Most dogs hips will get them by until they are older. Think about it. A 10 year old dog is what, 70? There are a heck of a lot of 10 year old dogs that do pretty well. Same with people. I don't have my dogs tested. I figure the hips are pretty fair because their working life is 11 to 12 years of getting knocked around. At this age, yes, they are slowing down and doing what they do, slowing down is not a healthy thing to do. People act like 12 year old dogs should still be like they were at 2 years. It isn't going to happen as the norm."

You breed to very good hips, so the norm for you is not the breed "average". An excellent or good hip will withstand more abuse than the average hip, which should fall between good and fair. What I am saying is that the average hip will last to an older age with a bit more care. Doesn't require a lot, just an understanding that the dogs have certain needs that we don't and it cost's nothing to accomodate. Cement runs and such were not used for the dogs benefit nother than sanitization. They are used for our benefit and dogs can do fine on them if they have good hips to start with. Just something to think about.
There are some posts on the other thread at about pgs 9 or 10 that may explain it better. You should be producing above average hips any way. It's kind of like and old car that is not in perfect shape vs one that is.....which one will absorb more abuse before failing.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don,

How do you know who is average and who isn't. How do you tell who is less than average. Some breeds have less than average as the norm. My guys have been goods and fairs. All are house dogs which means wood floors and a couple of bathrooms that are cermic tile. Most breeders don't raise on slick floors and pad their whelphing boxes if they are up on the environmental factors. My dogs actually avoid the doggie pillows for most of their lives. Thor is 13 and now he seeks out a pillow to lay on and does that nesting routine you were talking about. He's 4 generations of OFA and the majority of each litter [repeat] were x-rayed and certified. Ability to work as the deciding factor just doesn't tell us much earlier enough. Dogs can have heart and just plain high pain tolerance. As Mike points out, stakes are high and no time for guessing games.

Terrasita


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Another thing that came to mind when I think about two different set ups is the amount of sunshine, ie. vitamin D that dogs get. Few people that I know have kennels set up in such a way that they are fully covered on top so dogs get only a bit of sunshine when they are let out and that is most likely in the afternoon, after people get back home from work. This is probably a lot less in winter. The amount of sunshine they get would have a great effect on not only bone development, but on the immune system, etc. etc... Even if food is supplemented with vit D, it is not the same as getting it the natural way.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I'm kinda on the side of Mike here. I think environmental causes are rare and the ones who are susceptible, barring the extreme environmental issue, are probably on the way to dysplasia. I did see a litter that were raised on linoleum. The first time on grass was 7 weeks. They could barely stand up and several bunny hopped. Being outsideor in a more natural setting doesn't really help. I know too many that have lived as outside dogs that were dysplastic. Mine are out when I'm working them and a few times day for potty breaks. The good hips are still the good hips. I have prelimmed dogs at 20 weeks, x-rayed at 2 and again at 5 and one as late as 10. The good ones maintained it. I recently lost a dog at Age 10 to osteosarcoma of the pelvis. Even with that hips were tight and didn't show signs of wear and tear My dog that was dysplastic in every extremity moved beautifully until she was Age 5. The 13 and 14 year olds have never shown her degree of orthopedic decline or even close. They don't even get up slowly. They still run up and down the stairs. Thor even goes up and down the steep basement stairs. His age shows in that he doesn't do the bouvier bounce anymore. His head used to clear our six foot fence. I think its again about what you choose to gamble on.

Terrasita


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Well I am of the opinion that genetics does play a huge role in how hips will look, but we all know that it does have an environmental component as well. So I do agree with this:


> What I am saying is that the average hip will last to an older age with a bit more care.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok. I am going to guess you have excellents in there also.
> To start with, the bits about soft ears and different colored eyes, as many discussions as you have had on dogs, I would have expected you know that there are no aboslutes. Does the norm, or average Mal have one soft ear, or bi colored eyes. No. To help understand, I should have reposted this post from the other thread Mike
> 
> "HD and other things will never be cured. Y'all are living in a dream world if you think it is. Most dogs like people have, as a norm, average hips. I have said this before. The greatest percentage is AVERAGE. That is why it is called AVERAGE. Not good, not poor, just average. A lower # are lucky enough to have perfect hips for the rest of their build. A lower #, likewise, are the unlucky ones that are born with crap hips for their structure. How long hips last depends on life. They can slip, they can fall, they can do any number of things just like we can to damage a hip so it doesn't last into old age. Most dogs hips will get them by until they are older. Think about it. A 10 year old dog is what, 70? There are a heck of a lot of 10 year old dogs that do pretty well. Same with people. I don't have my dogs tested. I figure the hips are pretty fair because their working life is 11 to 12 years of getting knocked around. At this age, yes, they are slowing down and doing what they do, slowing down is not a healthy thing to do. People act like 12 year old dogs should still be like they were at 2 years. It isn't going to happen as the norm."
> ...


 
I do not think you can use the defitintion of mathmatical average to describe normal hips. Normal does not equate to Average. It's normal for a dog to have healthy hips. just because the hips in a breed average out to be less than perfect but not quite horrible...does not mean that's normal. That's an evolutionary anonmoly created by selective breeding. Normal should be a healthy well structured hip.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita, if the norm for your breed is below average, then below average is the average. Average = what the the lagest median or number of dogs are born with with in the breed.....or a smaller number are born with perfect hips, the largest # make up the average, and a smaller number make up the poor end. Also Terrasita, being outside is not a cure. If a dog has crap hips when he is born, he will always have crap hips. This whole exercise is just to say, dogs having hips within the average range will do fine for his lifetime if you take a few precautions in the beginning to help pevent undo damage before the bones harden. If you don't believe it, I am not like some, I am not going to lose any sleep over it. Your dogs are your dogs. I havn't a clue as to how all my dogs would rate if tested, but, I do know their working life is 11 years + or - and they take a lot of abuse in rough country. Think about this just for the fun of it. Someone comes up to you and says you shouldn't run your young dogs on hard surfaces because it could damage the joints. Terrasita says, "Oh my, that makes a lot of sense...and it requires no effort on my part". You think it is something that some may be interested in knowing so you post it. What do you think is going to happen? What is going to happen is the first handfull of people are going to say all their friends roaded their hounds from six months on and it never hurt them. 
So, lets just say it is something to think about. If it doesn't seem plausible, that's cool.

James, I never mentioned "normal". It isn't the same as the "norm". Just like people, hip quality varies. If it didn't everyone wouldn't be taking exrays James. The majority of the dogs are not born with excellent hips, the majority are not born with poor hips. The majority are born with hips between the two extremes....that makes up the norm for the breed....or "average" if you will. Perfect hips will take more abuse than what the average hip will take. Likewise, a bad hip will take no abuse. . Look at it this way. There is an average height for an American male, but, some are a lot taller, some a lot shorter. It is a different average than a Chinese male. Pigmy's will have a different average. Just apply that principal to hip quality between breeds.

I can't explain it any clearer. It really isn't a hard concept.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Another thing that came to mind when I think about two different set ups is the amount of sunshine, ie. vitamin D that dogs get. Few people that I know have kennels set up in such a way that they are fully covered on top so dogs get only a bit of sunshine when they are let out and that is most likely in the afternoon, after people get back home from work. This is probably a lot less in winter. The amount of sunshine they get would have a great effect on not only bone development, but on the immune system, etc. etc... Even if food is supplemented with vit D, it is not the same as getting it the natural way.


I agree Sanda. It was mentioned that AC units remove allergens from the air. Well, that is something people might think is great....but is it. The dog of today are allergic to grass, dirt and half the other things that are outside. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out since the dogs are even born in the house. Exposure is what builds immunity. Your familiar with Parvo....I remember when it came on the scene. Parvo has little to no effect on my dogs but everyone elses die. Where did they build this immunity?? From exposure to an environment other than a sterile house. Every stud and bitch in my yard has had parvo so the pups have a good immunity to it. Because I have seen enough of it, I know to give the first shot when the pups quit nursing at 7 to 9 weeks and the second shot three week later and none will get it. The Airedale population and many other breeds are plagued with skin problems. I don't have any. Why? 

We could go on and on but the simple fact, IMO, is a lot of problems our dogs are having are our fault.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

[quote=. Think about this just for the fun of it. Someone comes up to you and says you shouldn't run your young dogs on hard surfaces because it could damage the joints. Terrasita says, "Oh my, that makes a lot of sense...and it requires no effort on my part". You think it is something that some may be interested in knowing so you post it. What do you think is going to happen? What is going to happen is the first handfull of people are going to say all their friends roaded their hounds from six months on and it never hurt them. 
So, lets just say it is something to think about. If it doesn't seem plausible, that's cool.


Okay, I'll leave all that math stuff to you and James. I do have my limitations, especially at this hour. Don, what you write as far as giving them the best possible chance isn't objectionable. I think a lot of people have rules of thumbs of dos and don'ts regarding activities before those growth plates close. I don't like to see pups on slick floors and have had the padded whelphing boxes, etc. I think grass is the best surface for them. I think if you are saying that there are some environmental conditions that might help out certain dogs, I'd be in agreement.

Terrasita


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> James, I never mentioned "normal". It isn't the same as the "norm". Just like people, hip quality varies. If it didn't everyone wouldn't be taking exrays James. The majority of the dogs are not born with excellent hips, the majority are not born with poor hips. The majority are born with hips between the two extremes....that makes up the norm for the breed....or "average" if you will. Perfect hips will take more abuse than what the average hip will take. Likewise, a bad hip will take no abuse. . Look at it this way. There is an average height for an American male, but, some are a lot taller, some a lot shorter. It is a different average than a Chinese male. Pigmy's will have a different average. Just apply that principal to hip quality between breeds.
> 
> I can't explain it any clearer. It really isn't a hard concept.


Don, following what you stated I would have to say that there is no such thing as healthy heart, healthy stomach or healthy pancreas. Doesn`t medicine separate healthy from unhealthy? There may be no such thing like perfect personality, or perfect body, but there is a difference between sick and healthy. The dog with good eyes, and a blind one. There is no average, dog either has good eyes, or there is something wrong with it. If there is, then she is not healthy. If the average is not healthy then it`s pretty bad, the question is why?
And following again and starting at a point of today I would have to consider pet temperament as avrage, and breed my females because they are just the average.
Why would a perfect hip take more abuse?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maria Janota said:


> Don, following what you stated I would have to say that there is no such thing as healthy heart, healthy stomach or healthy pancreas. Doesn`t medicine separate healthy from unhealthy? There may be no such thing like perfect personality, or perfect body, but there is a difference between sick and healthy. The dog with good eyes, and a blind one. There is no average, dog either has good eyes, or there is something wrong with it. If there is, then she is not healthy. If the average is not healthy then it`s pretty bad, the question is why?
> And following again and starting at a point of today I would have to consider pet temperament as avrage, and breed my females because they are just the average.
> Why would a perfect hip take more abuse?


I didn't say average was unhealthy Maria. Average is what most things are about in a general populace. The average hip will last the dog his lifetime...in his environment. When his life is spent in our environment, it takes a bit of care to achieve the longevity. I have what I would guess would be average hips....I was never doing the standing broad jump in the Olympics....someone bless with above average structure, a more perfect specimen so to speak, is in the Olympics. 

Let's try this approach. Let's say you have average knees and you become a carpet layer. After a while you notice your knees are really starting to bother you at night, at work, etc. You know that you knees are not going to take carpet laying much longer so you... 1) find another job that does not strees your knees as badly and they last you the rest of your life....or at least until old age. Or 2) You realize what is happening and you choose to ignore it and continue with laying carpet for anothe 10 years until you can't hardly walk. Both are your choices. Dogs have been removed from the environment that nature designed them to live in. We have largely removed them from that environment and put them in ours. Dogs haven't got the options we have unless we supply a few options for them. Eventually, you notice the dog is not as strong in the back end. You take them to the vet and he perscribes something or you give him chondroitin or who knows what all. Sure it masks the symtoms but it doesn't solve the problem as to why his hips are giving out a six years.....Bad hips is something that can't be fixed once they have them. I have two dogs that come in the house. One is usually in my recliner, the other on a dog bed on the landing by choice. I have hard floors. If the house is hot enough for them to out lay on the hard floor...I put them out where they can get in a hole. There is a bricked area in front of the deck, I have never seen a dog chose to lay on the bricks voluntarily....they lay right next to the bricks in the dirt where they can make a divot in the dirt for their hip. There is a reason they don't lay on flat hard surfaces is they have an option.

As far as why would a good hip take more abuse....I will leave that to someone else to explain.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"Doesn`t medicine separate healthy from unhealthy?"

Whoa....I can be healthy as a horse and have a cold or a myriad of other things like an infection, a virus etc, etc....I can take medicine for for a lot of things...it makes me feel better but it doesn't make me healthier...usually it makes you more unhealthy. I stayed away from medicines my whole life. Haven't seen a dactor since I was twenty and had brain surgery. Got a steel plate that covers about 1/4 of the back of my head. It was put in 42 years ago. Never had a flu shot. Now society on the whole is medicine dependent. My knees are shot but now, I will use advil if I can't walk. Three advill washed down with a few shots of Kentucky's finest and I am ready to go chuck those dog food bags on my shoulder and pack them around all the dog yards. Below is my byline on my email. 

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Ok I'm not following... As a breeder looking to improve their stock shouldn't the dogs be exposed to all conditions esp the harshest? You state dogs with less than ideal hips will show it faster on hard slick surfaces than isn't that EXACTLY what your dogs should be exposed to to help weed out the lesser?? 

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tracy, you don't want to"test" them until the joints are solidified. The ball and socket are spherical, not two flat plates. Because of the shape, when the weight of the hindquarters is forcing the ball into the socket while it is still malleable is what does the damage IMO. Two flat surfaces would more evenly distrute the weight. This is where most of the damage is done. As I said, dogs like people have a preferred side to lay on. Keep in mind, this does not mean they don't lay on the other side. It would be an interestin challenge if the people that have hip exrays with diffrent rating on the hips to watch and see which is the side the dog lays on the most. Dollars to donut it will be the side with the lowest rating.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I stayed away from medicines my whole life. Haven't seen a dactor since I was twenty


You could be my sibling that was stolen by wolves


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not to say I believe it or dont' BUT,
If the trend of ENS is an attempt to expose/condition the pups to natural elements why wouldn't a natural environment be more apt to do this on it's own? 
Just thinkin again!\\/:-k :-D


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Not to say I believe it or dont' BUT,
> If the trend of ENS is an attempt to expose/condition the pups to natural elements why wouldn't a natural environment be more apt to do this on it's own?
> Just thinkin again!\\/:-k :-D


I think the hopes is to saturate the dog with more of the stimulation that the enivorment already provides. Like an athelte who takes creatine....It's found in red meat....But to supplement the athete with synthetic creatine will exponetionly (sp?) compound the benefits...Does it work with ENS...Who knows?


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Someone once mentioned *phenotypic plasticity* on this forum-ie. that for a given genotype there is more than one outcome. Take two identical twins for example and look at them in 40 years time. They will differ. They can have different diseases (one can have diabetes, the other can have blood pressure problems), yet they both have the same genetics. Therefore, the environment has a much greater effect on our dogs than I think some are willing to accept. So, I guess the question is then: do we want to see what they are truly like if we provide them with stuff they would have in their natural setting, or in the artificial environment that we have created for them? 

Is it a valid test to provide the worst possible environment (flooring for example), and then see which ones still have great hips at 4 years of age?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Someone once mentioned *phenotypic plasticity* on this forum-ie. that for a given genotype there is more than one outcome. Take two identical twins for example and look at them in 40 years time. They will differ. They can have different diseases (one can have diabetes, the other can have blood pressure problems), yet they both have the same genetics. Therefore, the environment has a much greater effect on our dogs than I think some are willing to accept. So, I guess the question is then: do we want to see what they are truly like if we provide them with stuff they would have in their natural setting, or in the artificial environment that we have created for them?
> 
> Is it a valid test to provide the worst possible environment (flooring for example), and then see which ones still have great hips at 4 years of age?


 
I understand Phenotypical plastisty...And I understand the questions being asked here. But I do think when you look at the life of the average working dog the questions are being put to the test in the extreme. I think it's safe to say, a lot of out dogs spend a lot of time in crates (hard flooring). The play in high impact sports. some live in concrete kennels. My dogs for whatever reason, would rather lay on the basement floor than the couch I bought them. I think the life of an active working dog should tell us the working life of the hips.

We have the best test for hips, the work itself. Ultimatley the dog has to have good enough hips to work, and to keep on working...also the hips have to be nice enough for the dog to work well.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Very nice thread,good opinions and i am learning.I can go along with a few things but not everything.
Imo a dog that has no HD can still carry the gene for it,therefore it is so hard to eliminate.It can skip one generation or more,maybe soon someone will be able to isolate that bad gene and eliminate the disease.
A healthy dog,in this case a dog with no HD can not develop the disease by sleeping on concrete or walking on slick surfaces.What is not there can not develop.
Also there are different kinds of certification,OFA and a few more.Xrays are taken with dogs being in different positions and last but not least breeders are not on the same wavelenght.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

its not one geen. its a plygenic trait. that is the big problem with hd


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> Very nice thread,good opinions and i am learning.I can go along with a few things but not everything.
> Imo a dog that has no HD can still carry the gene for it,therefore it is so hard to eliminate.It can skip one generation or more,maybe soon someone will be able to isolate that bad gene and eliminate the disease.
> A healthy dog,in this case a dog with no HD can not develop the disease by sleeping on concrete or walking on slick surfaces.What is not there can not develop.
> Also there are different kinds of certification,OFA and a few more.Xrays are taken with dogs being in different positions and last but not least breeders are not on the same wavelenght.


I find discussions of this type extremely helpful to me also Jack. One thing thios one has done is make me more aware of the challenges of peoples perceptions "because" of the differences of environment. James just mentioned that his dog would rather sleep on the concrete than on a padded bed. Maybe it it is cooler maybe it is because todays dogs are normally born and raised predominately in mans environment. These contadictions inbehavior tell me I am at fault, in part, in explaining things. I don't think to explain because what I do is is simply what I am totally used to doing and don't take into account that it is not what most anyone else but a few can relate to. My observations are of dogs that have never stepped foot in a house. Their behavior is not modified from birth to a human environment. I realise through these discussions that what may be very natural behavior in dogs to me, may be seen in a totally different light by others. I raise dogs as close to nature as possible because, to me, observation of a modified behaviors, that might be connected to the environment, is useless if one is trying to see "natural' behaviors. Likewise, the venues I use my dogs for, hunting fur, is a very natural thing to a dog. I can't base my breeding on what a trainer has done. Obviously, my views are going to vary a good deal from what the "average dog owner"s views. These discussions have made me more aware of the changes caused by different environments largely because we are trying to compare dogs that have been raised in different environments.

Jack said
"A healthy dog,in this case a dog with no HD can not develop the disease by sleeping on concrete or walking on slick surfaces.What is not there can not develop."

I disagree with this. I would say, a mature dog with great hips will not deveope HD if it is not there. OFA exrays are done normally at 2 years of age after the bones are set. At that point, dogs have the hips they are going to have. From birth up to that point, while the bones are growing and malleable, is what is going to determine what they will have at two. This is the reason they turn human babies in the crib. If you don't, the back of their head is flat. In a natural environment, wild canids have no slick, hard floors. They were born in rounded holes. The natural environment is the ideal.

I do think genetics plays a part up to a point. Genetics determines the quality of the hip to start with.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Andreas.
Yes you are right,there are more then one gene involved.Do you think using LMX is a good way to help eradicating this disease? It makes sense to me but in real life it probably will not work either.
Also a question i would like to ask,if a dog gets an injury from being hit by a car and his hips are damaged is this truly HD ?
There are no genes involved and maybe the dog was OFA before the accident,i am saying a pup that had a rough life growing up can it be observed the same as a littermate who never had bumps and bruises?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sanda. let's start at the beginning. Pups are born inside in whelping boxes today. The boxes have flat, hard bottoms. The pus are either laying out separately in the box or they are all piled up on the few. Either way, they need some heavy padding under the hip. The padding also lessens the trauma a pup may suffer from mom accidentally laying on the back of the pup. Then the pup is learning how to walk. Slick floors is asking for trouble. It is no laughing matter when the pups legs splay straight out to the side. Dogs are not built for this and to get an adult dog into this position, you would have to break something. Next, as the pup grows, he is putting on a lot of weight. The hind quarters is heavy. Laying on the hard flat floors in a house drives the ball all the way into the socket and, at this age, the musclature is not there to give any support. As the pup moves around to get comfortable, close your eyes and picture the ball wallowing around in the socket of the hip totally unsupported. It hyas to be wearing the pad between the tow out that keeps the hip from being bone against bone. Dogs, like people have a preferred side to lay on. Finally, at about two, you have them exrayed. You have a good hip and a fair hip, or a similar combination. The lower scoring side will be the one the dog lays on most the time. It should have raised a red flag decades ago as to why you have so many dogs with two different quality hips because that is not the way genetics works. The cause to get two differnt ratings on the same dog has to be environmental. Too much money being made. Hips have become an obsession to the point that they worry bout their dogs hip more than their kids hips. As I said, the majority of both species will have "average" hips at birth.


Not true. Dogs typically lay on their good side, not their bad, as that's the one that hurts. We're even taught to ask that question during an orthopaedic consult for that reason. For example, my own 10 year old Rottweiler has severe osteoarthritis in both hips (I got her at age 9, so not a problem I created), but her right is particularly bad. It's partially difficult to get that one into extension behind her and she has more osteoarthritis in that hip (note the less smooth appearance in the right):











Until I got her hylauronic acid injections into her hip and elbow joints starting in December, she would just about always sit on her left side (i.e.-the opposite side) and it even wore down the fur on that side's hip point. 

In terms of puppies, their hips should never be outside the joint. From your description, I don't think you understand the anatomy of how a dog's hip joint works. It's a ball and socket joint that fits kind of like an ice cream scoop in an ice cream cone held down tightly in place with a rubber band on the inside of the cone (the round ligament of the head of the femur) and cellophane on the outside (the joint capsule). There should not be the level of laxity that you are describing without abnormal forces (overweight pup during a growth spurt or trauma like hit by car) or abnormal anatomy (shallow acetabulum, poor head of the femur shape from the beginning, and so on). 

In fact, the ball of the head of the femur is _supposed_ to be driven all the way in, not lax, as that's how a ball and socket joint works. The laxity causes uneven wearing of the cartilage and eventual arthritis. It takes significant deformity to produce the luxation like you are describing (called the Ortolani's sign) and is not found in normal pups. So when the acetabulum is shallow, the round ligament is gone, and the ball and socket joint are not as tightly adhered from a combination of poor nutrition or over nutrition and unfavorable genetics, that's when you get the laxity and subsequent osteoarthritis of hip dysplasia and degenerative joint disease. Plenty of wild canid species (wolves, foxes, coyotes, etc) also have to deal with ice and snow as pups and adolescents. They are likewise exposed to slick environments. While keeping pups on hard floors their entire lives is certainly not ideal, we would not have the breed disparity that we do if there was not a very significant genetic component to hip dysplasia (which I've explained in previous threads).


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Here's a thought on HD.
Before xray how many dogs had HD, passed this on to their pups yet never in it's or the pups working life did they show any signs of HD?!
Without Xray there is no way in hell that anyone could even suggest that my dog Thunder has "Moderate HD". I think anyone in dogs for any length of time has seen this.
The other side of the coin is the dog that looks ok in xray and has to be put down because of intolerance to pain, poor movement, etc.
This is where the good, old time breeders just "dismissed" the dogs that couldn't cut it and bred the dogs that did the work. It had nothing to do with xrays or even a knowledge of HD. It was selection for the dogs that got the job done!


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> In fact, the ball of the head of the femur is supposed to be driven all the way in, not lax, as that's how a ball and socket joint works. The laxity causes uneven wearing of the cartilage and eventual arthritis.


well, no.. 
He is actually right in saying this:"Laying on the hard flat floors in a house drives the ball all the way into the socket and, at this age, the musclature is not there to give any support. As the pup moves around to get comfortable, close your eyes and picture the ball wallowing around in the socket of the hip totally unsupported. "

You dont want to be pushing femur head into the socket like crazy. Sure, the ball and socket should be perfectly matched, but its not the perfect match that keeps them in place. its ligaments and muscles. That's why extra weight, and extra stress on those developing ligaments that actually assist in keeping the ball and the socket together is detrimental, not beneficial. Why do you think we dont exercise them like crazy when they are that young. It takes time for hip ligaments and muscles to get strong enough they can take the punishment. That is exactly what was being said. 

BTW, I dont know of many animals in the wild that would take their 4 week olds to go sliding on the ice. In fact, they barely leave their nest for how long after birth?


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Here we go, the vet shares the same idea about slippery flooring and puppies: 

"There is no scientific proof, but lots of observational conclusions, that pups reared especially during the nursing period on slippery surfaces such as newspapers will be prone to hip difficulties. That is not to say that smooth concrete, wood or newspaper surfaces cause dysplasia, just that they can make a bad situation worse. Better surfaces for newborn pups would be blankets or towels... something they can get a better grip on."

http://www.mrazovack9.com/hu/dysplasia.php?lg=us


Can people suggest what other differences there might be between natural and artificial environments?

so far: allergens, surface, sunlight...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren said,
"Not true. Dogs typically lay on their good side, not their bad, as that's the one that hurts."

Very true Maren, but we are not talking about dogs that already have terrible hips. We are talking about preventaive measures from birth until the bones are hard. Dogs that gentically have just the average hip for the breed.
Also, I am very aware of how a hip jpoint is made up. My choice of saying " driven into the socket" may have mislead you. How about "with the weight of the dogs backside bearing down on a hard floor, it applies a tremendous force on the ball stressing the socket, which is still malleable....resulting in future problems.
At any rate, the discussion has nothing to do with 10 year old dogs or dogs know to be dysplastic, but is about preventing environmental trauma from birth to the age when the bones are solid.

Your post does make it obvious that I am not going to be able to use an example of which side the dogs lays on prior to any damage because once the damage has started, yes, they will then probably lay on the other side.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have been thinking of the best way to explain this. This may work. I have used the exam[ple of a babies head before. I am going to try it again in a bit more detail. A newborn babies head is soft and malleable. It remians soft and malleable for a long time. A babies head is also much lager than the ball on a hip joint which means there is more surface area with which to absorb the pressure from the weight of the head. Keep in mind, the babies head is on a mattress, not a ridgid floor. Leave the baby on his back for prolonged periods and the baby will have a much flatter head in the back than he was born with. The cause? Environmental.

A puppy, born with normal, average hips has soft, malleable bones and joints just like the babies head. Remember, he was born with normal, average hips. The weight of the pups hindquarters gets progressively heavier as the pups grow. From whelping to, say 18 mo, is a long time for the ball which is a small radius, which increases the force applied to a much smaller area , to be pressed into a soft socket under pressure. Odds of some deformation are pretty darn good. Odds that the protecting film beween the ball and the socket wall getting damaged is big. Once you have bone to bone contact, you have a degenerative disease that will only get worse with time. Was the pup born with it? No! He had average hips that would have done just fine in his own environment, or with a little bit of awareness. Now he exrays as dysplastic at two years old. Just like the babies head that was left on his back. Neither was born with what the problem but they both have it because of the environment.

That is as plain as I can put it.


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Don, I also have "dirt" in my yard, my dogs do have a choice to lay in "dirt" or on the stone bricks.
They choose bricks very often. It bothers me sometimes, because the sick one shouldn`t do it.
They are both raised in the same house and same yard, one is healthy, the other is not, it shows rather in how she walks and runs (or how long/ how fast she is able to run) then how she lays.

Aboute natural enviroment - yes, dogs had holes and lived in the "dirt", exept many didn`t survive more then few months. Nobody provided food etc.

"From birth up to that point, while the bones are growing and malleable, is what is going to determine what they will have at two. "
Exept if they already developed bad hips - if they did, it is not going to disappear.

"Without Xray there is no way in hell that anyone could even suggest that my dog Thunder has "Moderate HD". I think anyone in dogs for any length of time has seen this."

I don`t know to well how GSD moves, but I do have some experience with ovcharkas. I have seen more then a few that moved badly. I always aks for a second opinion, and usually we tell the owner to go see specialist.
We were always right, wish it was other way. 
Anyway from my experience people simply can`t see this. If there are no obvious signs like lameness, they are not able to see that there is something wrong. But it does show.
I`ve been told many times, that my own sick dog moves great and her butt seems strong and you can see how healthy she is. No, she`s not - she has bad hips and elbows, good thing I didn`t belive my first vet when he told me so.
I`m not comparing those people to Bob - just from my experience it happends all the time.

So the disease is polygenic, one can`t tell if the healthy will pass it or not, then the obvious and least to do is to eliminate sick ones, those with bad hips. If the goal is to eliminate the problem.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> Andreas.
> Yes you are right,there are more then one gene involved.Do you think using LMX is a good way to help eradicating this disease? It makes sense to me but in real life it probably will not work either.
> Also a question i would like to ask,if a dog gets an injury from being hit by a car and his hips are damaged is this truly HD ?
> There are no genes involved and maybe the dog was OFA before the accident,i am saying a pup that had a rough life growing up can it be observed the same as a littermate who never had bumps and bruises?


Forgot to comment on this last night, but it's a good question. A couple weeks ago, we had a 4 year old border collie who came in on emergency who was hit by a car (by the owner's brother! ). Although the dog ended up dying because of internal injuries, both femur bones were completely luxated out of joint that we could see on radiographs. Even under general anesthesia, we still could not reduce the legs back into the hips because he had very good hips. It took the force of a car to get them both out of socket. We would have had to go in surgically to put them back in place. The doctor who handles most of the orthopaedic cases commented that if he would have had poor hips (i.e.-with a shallow acetabulum), it would have been much more likely without doing it surgically.

So if the dog would have lived and we would have been able to reduce the luxation, would that dog have "hip dysplasia?" No, because it's technically defined as a congenital defect in dogs. But would it develop the same end result of degenerative joint disease and arthritis eventually as the dog aged? That'd be a definite possibility.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maria Janota said:


> Don, I also have "dirt" in my yard, my dogs do have a choice to lay in "dirt" or on the stone bricks.
> They choose bricks very often. It bothers me sometimes, because the sick one shouldn`t do it.
> They are both raised in the same house and same yard, one is healthy, the other is not, it shows rather in how she walks and runs (or how long/ how fast she is able to run) then how she lays.
> 
> ...


Janota, one of the two dogs may have been born with less than average hips for the breed. Nothing can really be done about it to stop further degeneration totally, but taking some preventative measures early on may have helped. It is impossible to make a call without the capability of exraying pups at birth. Just isn't going to happen. The best bet is still exraying the parents and then taking the right precautions to see to it that the offspring have the best chance. But,, to have a real impact past your own dogs, everyone would have to stop breeding less than the average and better.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don, the problem with your analogy is that the bones of the skull (classified as flat bones) are not histologically/microscopically the same as the bones of the leg called (long bones). Bones of the skull have a different job (protection of the brain) than those of the legs (weight bearing). 

Plus puppies (and kittens and rat and mouse pups) can roll from side to side and roll over just about from birth if they didn't want to be on one side or the other. They are almost always moving and squirming unless nursing or asleep. Human babies cannot roll over for 2-3 months. That's why I don't buy this theory because then, almost every puppy out there raised in the house or in a kennel would have bad hips when certainly not all do. If a dog has to lay on its side and can't move because it is paralyzed or for some other reason, they get decubital ulcers from the forces on their body from remaining in one position even in just a few days and have to be turned several times a day (we have back dogs like this in our ICU quite frequently). Do puppies raised in the house or in kennels have decubital ulcers that would show this "tremendous" stress you describe from laying in one place? No, they don't.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Here we go, the vet shares the same idea about slippery flooring and puppies:
> 
> "There is no scientific proof, but lots of observational conclusions, that pups reared especially during the nursing period on slippery surfaces such as newspapers will be prone to hip difficulties. That is not to say that smooth concrete, wood or newspaper surfaces cause dysplasia, just that they can make a bad situation worse. Better surfaces for newborn pups would be blankets or towels... something they can get a better grip on."
> 
> ...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So are you requoting it because you agree with it? I agree with it too (along with the genetic and nutrition components, which is why responsible breeders always screen their breeding stock). Slippery flooring is definitely not ideal for young joints if they pull a Bambi on ice. I rather like cattle or horse stall mats. Easy to clean but grippable. But you were saying you don't like the pressure on the hips while a dog is laying down. That's a different issue.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Don, the problem with your analogy is that the bones of the skull (classified as flat bones) are not histologically/microscopically the same as the bones of the leg called (long bones). Bones of the skull have a different job (protection of the brain) than those of the legs (weight bearing).
> 
> Plus puppies (and kittens and rat and mouse pups) can roll from side to side and roll over just about from birth if they didn't want to be on one side or the other. They are almost always moving and squirming unless nursing or asleep. Human babies cannot roll over for 2-3 months. That's why I don't buy this theory because then, almost every puppy out there raised in the house or in a kennel would have bad hips when certainly not all do. If a dog has to lay on its side and can't move because it is paralyzed or for some other reason, they get decubital ulcers from the forces on their body from remaining in one position even in just a few days and have to be turned several times a day (we have back dogs like this in our ICU quite frequently). Do puppies raised in the house or in kennels have decubital ulcers that would show this "tremendous" stress you describe from laying in one place? No, they don't.


So, what your saying is that there is no comparison and a soft hip joint will not deform with pressure applied? So don't buy the theory Maren but say something logical. I really don't think anyone has even considered a dog laying in one place for day without moving....logically, Maren, babies don't either. They don't have to to get the deformation. Are we going to play this game again? Just as long as everyone takes note on who is dogging who I am game.

Since you brought up "responsible breeders". Let's talk about responsible dog owners that keep their dogs so well that they are allowed to pack up and kill each other. How responsible is that for a vet student that talks "responsible" anything?


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

please don't play this game again cos the thread will get locked. It is quite apparent (at least to me) that many have forgotten that nature has a lot more benefits to offer to growing dogs and why I wanted this discussion continued further. So, can we move on from hips.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> please don't play this game again cos the thread will get locked. It is quite apparent (at least to me) that many have forgotten that nature has a lot more benefits to offer to growing dogs and why I wanted this discussion continued further. So, can we move on from hips.



Sounds like a good idea.
Let's get back on the OP's original thoughts! 
There should be a lot more to this then just hips. That's had it's own discussion/post.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I would happily Sanda, but, it is going to be tough if the vet student is going to pick each thing I say apart.
I put my post to you inside the quotes above, but, I am considering other environmental factors that have an effect on dogs physically, but, at the moment I have seen more difference in the general behavior.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So, what your saying is that there is no comparison and a soft hip joint will not deform with pressure applied? So don't buy the theory Maren but say something logical. I really don't think anyone has even considered a dog laying in one place for day without moving....logically, Maren, babies don't either. They don't have to to get the deformation. Are we going to play this game again? Just as long as everyone takes note on who is dogging who I am game.
> 
> Since you brought up "responsible breeders". Let's talk about responsible dog owners that keep their dogs so well that they are allowed to pack up and kill each other. How responsible is that for a vet student that talks "responsible" anything?


No, not with the normal force of simply laying down. As I've said, because if it were so, just about any dog raised on any firm surface would have hip dysplasia, which they do not. I'm sure if you surveyed the dogs who got passing PennHips or OFA fair, good, or excellent, a great many of them did just fine in a whelping box in the house or in a kennel. The vet page you quoted also reiterated how important it is for responsible breeders to take radiographs on their breeding stock. 



> There is no excuse for NOT taking pre-breeding x-rays.


That's really nothing new or revolutionary. I don't think you're going to find too many lackeys in your corner insisting that you don't have to radiograph your breeding stock, particularly if you have working dogs. That can be working dog suicide. 

I always find orthopaedics to be an interesting discussion plus I'm trying to be nice here. But just because you like presenting your theories as facts doesn't mean everyone will agree. I'm not "dogging on you." Nothing wrong with talking about theories, but if you think about it, this theory just doesn't hold up or just about every puppy raised on a flat surface would have hip dysplasia, which they don't. 

And as far as killing each other, I am confused...  Do you mean my two males that had to be kept on muzzle around each other? They didn't kill each other. I rehomed my former Mal/GSD cross who now lives with a good vet student friend of mine and now enjoys going on trail rides with his new owner on horseback several times a week and down to the barn when she works with the mules. I'm quite happy for him.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Here's a broad question for breeders...what kind of flooring do you use in a whelping area and why? At what age are the pups allowed to come out and try out different surfaces? If a pup shows substrate aversion to a particular kind of surface for the first time, how do you handle that?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I personally think A/C and central heating have an immense amount to do with skin problems. I also have a theory that I will throw out there. I have read that about 90% (or there abouts) of the dust you see in a house is actually defoliated skin. If this is true, there has to be a higher density of mites in a house in the carpet and furniture than there is outside in a natural environment. They live on defoliated skin. Many skin problems begin with scratching. I read about dogs with scratching problems all the time and the cause is not fleas. It is layed off right then to allergies$$....but is it? When I came back from the nationals with the dogs, I noticed that the ones I took were scratching big time. I changed food and a lot of other things, but then, I noticed the other dogs in the two yards with them were scratching. The nationals were in OH and it was wet. I brushed them down with a stiff brush that got down to the hide and put Gold Bond on every dog that was scratching. They all stopped after the second application because Gold Bond has eucalyptol in it which things like mites cannot tolerate as it is a natural insecticide. An intersting thing was that they started getting what appeared to be a big hot spot above the hips. The hair fell out and it scabbed over. I think that symptom is usually layed of to thyroid.....but now I wonder.....is it$$ 
Another environmental thing is the continuous bathing to keep a dog suitable for residing in the house. Washing the oils out of the hide has to be a good thing right. I have had 14 year old dogs that have never had a bath and they don't stink but they do have dirt in the hair.

Pick a topic


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Here's a broad question for breeders...what kind of flooring do you use in a whelping area and why? At what age are the pups allowed to come out and try out different surfaces? If a pup shows substrate aversion to a particular kind of surface for the first time, how do you handle that?


Pine shavings and dirt. They don't have an aversion to dirt. They come out and down the steps at about three weeks.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

> No, not with the normal force of simply laying down. As I've said, because if it were so, just about any dog raised on any firm surface would have hip dysplasia, which they do not.


thats like saying smoking cant cause lung cancer because not all smokers get lung cancer


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I personally think A/C and central heating have an immense amount to do with skin problems. I also have a theory that I will throw out there. I have read that about 90% (or there abouts) of the dust you see in a house is actually defoliated skin. If this is true, there has to be a higher density of mites in a house in the carpet and furniture than there is outside in a natural environment. They live on defoliated skin. Many skin problems begin with scratching. I read about dogs with scratching problems all the time and the cause is not fleas. It is layed off right then to allergies$$....but is it? When I came back from the nationals with the dogs, I noticed that the ones I took were scratching big time. I changed food and a lot of other things, but then, I noticed the other dogs in the two yards with them were scratching. The nationals were in OH and it was wet. I brushed them down with a stiff brush that got down to the hide and put Gold Bond on every dog that was scratching. They all stopped after the second application because Gold Bond has eucalyptol in it which things like mites cannot tolerate as it is a natural insecticide. An intersting thing was that they started getting what appeared to be a big hot spot above the hips. The hair fell out and it scabbed over. I think that symptom is usually layed of to thyroid.....but now I wonder.....is it$$
> Another environmental thing is the continuous bathing to keep a dog suitable for residing in the house. Washing the oils out of the hide has to be a good thing right. I have had 14 year old dogs that have never had a bath and they don't stink but they do have dirt in the hair.
> 
> Pick a topic


In the Ohio River valley, a more likely change would be more likely to be fungal or pollen related than mites. Demodex, sarcoptes, and Cheytiella are the three most common mites. The fungal diseases that may come to mind that are hot beds in that area (and Missouri) that aren't in the drier parts of California are things like histoplasmosis, blastomycosis, and dermatophilus ("rain rot"). Another possibility is because you live in a very dry climate, most fungal organisms are not going to do well out there except coccidioides, so with any luck, they may have gone away on their own. Incidentally, I'd much rather a problem be thyroid related. Finding a dog with a low T4 and getting a dog on levothyroxine is way cheaper, less frustrating, likely safer and easier to manage than the pretty hardcore diagnosis and treatment protocols for fungal infections or for environmental atopy to stuff like pollen.

My dogs, who are all in the house, usually only get one actual bath a year (usually in the spring to lessen the spring shed). Except this last December when the two Malinois got skunked when Fawkes decided it would make a good prey item to kill. #-o 

BTW...everyone please note that if you're actually civil to me, I can be a decent source of FREE information that Dr. Google can't always provide. :-\"


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> thats like saying smoking cant cause lung cancer because not all smokers get lung cancer


I'm not saying it can't. I'm saying it's pretty unlikely that pressure on the hips from lying on a hard surface causes it or we'd have way, way more pups of all breeds with hip dysplasia. Also doesn't mean I'm going to start lighting up either. [-X


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> In the Ohio River valley, a more likely change would be more likely to be fungal or pollen related than mites. Demodex, sarcoptes, and Cheytiella are the three most common mites. The fungal diseases that may come to mind that are hot beds in that area (and Missouri) that aren't in the drier parts of California are things like histoplasmosis, blastomycosis, and dermatophilus ("rain rot"). Another possibility is because you live in a very dry climate, most fungal organisms are not going to do well out there except coccidioides, so with any luck, they may have gone away on their own. Incidentally, I'd much rather a problem be thyroid related. Finding a dog with a low T4 and getting a dog on levothyroxine is way cheaper, less frustrating, likely safer and easier to manage than the pretty hardcore diagnosis and treatment protocols for fungal infections or for environmental atopy to stuff like pollen.
> 
> My dogs, who are all in the house, usually only get one actual bath a year (usually in the spring to lessen the spring shed). Except this last December when the two Malinois got skunked when Fawkes decided it would make a good prey item to kill. #-o
> 
> BTW...everyone please note that if you're actually civil to me, I can be a decent source of FREE information that Dr. Google can't always provide. :-\"


Whatever this problem was, it thrived in the hottest part of the year. Cleared right up with the second appication of Gold Bond. About 6 bucks.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Another thing that house dogs and puppies raised in indoors wouldn't be exposed to is outdoor bacteria, ie. soil bacteria. As intestine gets colonized very early on and by the time house raised dogs get to go outside, their intestine is already colonized with bacteria that are from mother/inside the house. If they are not natural births, than most of the bacteria would be whatever is around them at the time of birth. 

I dont know how beneficial these soil bacteria actually are so I am quite skeptical about this thing, but those types of bacteria are also something that natural environment has to offer that might be more beneficial than bacteria acquired from the artificial setting (ie. inside the house). 

http://www.upwardquest.com/pet-flora-probiotic-pgs/index.html


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> BTW...everyone please note that if you're actually civil to me, I can be a decent source of FREE information that Dr. Google can't always provide. :-\"


Well everyone else on this board provides free information too! Or is there a 'pay per post' part of this forum that I wasnt aware of (I know I am a newbie)? :-D


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Maren said...BTW...everyone please note that if you're actually civil to me, I can be a decent source of FREE information that Dr. Google can't always provide.


Maren, It is telling that you plea was addressed to "everyone" rather than just myself. Yet, you learned nothing from that. Seems your perception of what is "real" is lacking. The information you may have been able to bring to the table thus far has not been "free" as it was continually laced with your "opinion". You may find that you can have a big glasss of cold milk full of good stuff to offer, but, once the milk is spilled, even if you can clean it up....no one wants the milk anymore. I am hoping you may be able to share some of that information you were speaking of because I can't seem to find it on google. How do I put you on ignore??? Your free medical advice has to high a price for me.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> BTW...everyone please note that if you're actually civil to me, I can be a decent source of FREE information that Dr. Google can't always provide. :-\"



Maren , I appreciate the information you provide as well as others here . But I read some of your comments in the last thread that got locked and then this one and have to say I'm pretty put off buy them . 

You made a good arguement for your side but you now come across like we should be kissing your butt and owe you something for it . 

This is a discussion forum where information is supplied buy others and it's pro and cons are discussed . 

Simply because you have medical training in that field doesn't and shouldn't make the information you supply automatically exceptable to all . 

People in the medical field itself readily debate common excepted medical practices and because of this advancements have been made when commonly except medical practices were questioned and evidence was looked at in a different way . 

Your information carries alot of weight due to your experiance but it doesn't make it above questioning . 

Maybe it's just me but you are coming across like you deserve different treatment then everyone else here due to the information YOU provide . Does that mean your information is better the others here ? 

We all do and should be questioned on the information we provide and we can agree or disagree with it if we want . That's how alot of learning happens when others get questioned or disagreed with because it forces them to provide more info to strengthen their opinion or facts .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Another thing that house dogs and puppies raised in indoors wouldn't be exposed to is outdoor bacteria, ie. soil bacteria. As intestine gets colonized very early on and by the time house raised dogs get to go outside, their intestine is already colonized with bacteria that are from mother/inside the house. If they are not natural births, than most of the bacteria would be whatever is around them at the time of birth.
> 
> I dont know how beneficial these soil bacteria actually are so I am quite skeptical about this thing, but those types of bacteria are also something that natural environment has to offer that might be more beneficial than bacteria acquired from the artificial setting (ie. inside the house).
> 
> http://www.upwardquest.com/pet-flora-probiotic-pgs/index.html


Sanda, I think it is far better that the dog be exposed to the environment. There is so much in the environment such as parvo virus. It is pretty much everywhere but is only a problem when the concentration gets past so many part per billion. Trying to create a sterile environment is more detrimental than it is good.
I am actually floored that they now have disinfectant wipes at the entrance to supermarkets to wipe off the handles on shopping carts. I can't believe people have become this mindless of the eventual consequenses. They may perceive they are healthier today but I don't see beiing drug and doctor dependant as actually being healthier. People themselves are creating a lack of immunity. Eventually, they will have none....but modern science has created a euphoric atmosphere of health.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Don how about the automatic soap dispensers for the HOME so you don't have to touch the "soap pump handle covered in germs" .... You're about to WASH YOUR HANDS PEOPLE!

So much stupid


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> BTW...everyone please note that if you're actually civil to me, I can be a decent source of FREE information that Dr. Google can't always provide. :-\"


I think you're great and I wish you all the best in your career. I also think that dogs, like people, will get over most things on their own in time.

Being practical , if some malady exceeds a dogs worth, get another dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Funny Gerry! Looks like you going for that free info. LOL

One of the environmental problems encountered in the house is scewed ideas people end up with reagarding how dogs have to be raised. Look around. Half the people in the world think a dog has to be raised in the house now. This is to the point they will engage in mindless arguments and a dogs behalf regarding how unethical you are if you raised them out doors. These people don't even see the outdoors as a viable option any more. I am beginning to think that dogs must release a neurotoxin that has no place to go when kept in the house. When this neurotoxin reaches a certain concentration in and enclosed area, it greatly compromises the ability to think rationally. I quess have dog in our environment is having an effect on people also. Lets be realistic, how many "normal" people are going to get on an open forum in front of the world and -plead the case that huge yards with trees and creeks is inhumane.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Here's a broad question for breeders...what kind of flooring do you use in a whelping area and why?


8' x 8' beach towels w/ the 'rough' side up & disposable pads underneath: enough grip in the fabric for traction, easy to wash once per day. also, my box is heavy enough and the towel big enough that the dam can't bunch it all up, or any pups get underneath the towel, as the box sits on top of it and holds it easily in place.




Maren Bell Jones said:


> At what age are the pups allowed to come out and try out different surfaces? If a pup shows substrate aversion to a particular kind of surface for the first time, how do you handle that?


i pretty much leave the pups in their box for the first 3ish weeks except for when i pick them up/handle them. once they start trying to come out of their box, they get to start seeing the world, and all pups move outside into a 10'x30' run on grass/dirt full time at 4 weeks. if a pup shows an aversion to a different surface, i start watching that pup for other "sensitivities," as a part of my perpetual examination of their reactions to new things as they grow.


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