# Anybody have any ideas for an alternative to frozen RAW??



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm aware of Honest Kitchen but the place that is supposed to carry it in my town .. doesn't. 

We are heading up to a cottage for 2 weeks with no electricity so my cooler will only keep about 4 days worth of the Slop that I get. 

I'd love to snag some Honest Kitchen as a product like that would be ideal. Is there anything else out there that is dehydrated like that? I'd hate to buy the uber expensive kibble again.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> I'm aware of Honest Kitchen but the place that is supposed to carry it in my town .. doesn't.
> 
> We are heading up to a cottage for 2 weeks with no electricity so my cooler will only keep about 4 days worth of the Slop that I get.
> 
> I'd love to snag some Honest Kitchen as a product like that would be ideal. Is there anything else out there that is dehydrated like that? I'd hate to buy the uber expensive kibble again.


Can't you get HK shipped to your cottage?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You can use the canned EVO 95% line. They have beef, chicken/turkey, venison, rabbit, and duck and all is AAFCO formulated. I feed the venison, duck, and rabbit pretty frequently (maybe once a week) for variety. Nature's Variety also has a similar line. Wellness CORE does too, but it's just intended for supplemental feeding, not a long term thing.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Forgot to add...THK is really expensive per pound, even with the water added. More so than kibble and probably moreso than even the canned. I use Preference (the veggie mix), but that's cause I don't have a food processor.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> I'm aware of Honest Kitchen but the place that is supposed to carry it in my town .. doesn't.
> 
> We are heading up to a cottage for 2 weeks with no electricity so my cooler will only keep about 4 days worth of the Slop that I get.
> 
> I'd love to snag some Honest Kitchen as a product like that would be ideal. Is there anything else out there that is dehydrated like that? I'd hate to buy the uber expensive kibble again.



There is a Canadian dehydrated raw product called NRG

http://www.nrgpetproducts.com/

I use it when camping and stuff like that. I have tried the Buffalo and the Salmon ones. My dog's stool gets a little soft (not runny), but no big deal. Probabaly just the abrupt change.

I know a couple of SAR dog handlers that feed it as the main diet for their dogs seem to do very well on it. 

I have seen it in a store in Ontario but can't remember which? Maybe Global Pets?

It is not cheap, but I don't feed it all that often, generally just when travelling.

Caution: the website and packaging are not super flashy.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks Terry, Maren and Jennifer. 

Jenn that's exactly what I was looking for I found a local retailer and will check in tomorrow. So Farley had soft stools did you change his diet radically i.e. from Buffalo to chicken when you did it? As this formulation is pretty close to what I give her now .. http://www.nrgpetproducts.com/maxim.html the chicken version.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Thanks Terry, Maren and Jennifer.
> 
> Jenn that's exactly what I was looking for I found a local retailer and will check in tomorrow. So Farley had soft stools did you change his diet radically i.e. from Buffalo to chicken when you did it? As this formulation is pretty close to what I give her now .. http://www.nrgpetproducts.com/maxim.html the chicken version.


No not radically different. I feed buffalo, chicken, fish and other proteins on rotation raw. Maybe it is the no bone? Like I said, not talking runny, just different. 

I just go straight from raw to the NRG and it is no big deal. Perhaps if he was on it for longer than a couple of days at a time his stools would firm up. I have not been terribly concerned.

Maybe you should do a little trial before you leave?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

My guess it is the lack of bone that is the culprit for the softer stools. The More bone Sasha gets the firmer and whiter her stools become. Hopefully the local retailer has stock so I can do a little trial as we don't leave until next Friday. So I could still mix it in with the RAW I usually feed to get her used to it. She seems to have a pretty strong gut for a shepherd type of dog though, so it may not matter. 

Thanks for the tip!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

would taking a cooler full of dry ice help?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> would taking a cooler full of dry ice help?


It probably would but it has to last 14 days ... I need at least 18 1lb blocks of my frozen stuff to make it those 14 days. So I'll need to supplement something or keep running back to town which I don't want to do.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

How about checking camping supply stores for dehydrated people food? You *might* be able to find something that would be suitable for your dog and at least you wouldn't have to worry about keeping that stuff cold.


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> How about checking camping supply stores for dehydrated people food? You *might* be able to find something that would be suitable for your dog and at least you wouldn't have to worry about keeping that stuff cold.


I just noticed that our local restaurant supply store has big cans of meat (cooked chicken, beef in a couple of different forms, etc.) which may also work for supplementing a diet? Not raw, obviously, but pretty shelf-stable.

(I will add that I didn't actually check the ingredients because I was in a hurry, so there may be undesirables in there. I'm planning to go back and investigate before we head off on vacation in August, for supplementing kibble.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I'm aware of Honest Kitchen but the place that is supposed to carry it in my town .. doesn't.
> 
> We are heading up to a cottage for 2 weeks with no electricity so my cooler will only keep about 4 days worth of the Slop that I get.
> 
> I'd love to snag some Honest Kitchen as a product like that would be ideal. Is there anything else out there that is dehydrated like that? I'd hate to buy the uber expensive kibble again.


Are you looking for a complete dehydrated food or one that you add RMBs to?

Or, like THK, one that can stand alone but is better with RMBs?

And when do you leave? The bucket of THK can be shipped to you and it's not heavy (because it's dehydrated).


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

We are leaving this Friday so I need something lined up before then. My local retailer is getting an order of this Connie. This formulation is pretty close to what I give her now .. http://www.nrgpetproducts.com/maxim.html the chicken version. Jenn Coulter recommended it. I found out the cottage we are renting does have some sort of fridge but it most likely is a relic from the 70's with the small top freezer so I may be able to bring more of her regular diet as well. 

Can you take a look at the link Connie? Just to see how the specs stack up? How long can I go without RMBs with a diet like this for cleaning her teeth? I was figuring that I would give her a chicken thigh every 3 or 4 days.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I have used freeze dried raw food from AFS when camping and traveling with my dogs. Here is their website, link on AFS products
http://www.animalfood.com/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> We are leaving this Friday so I need something lined up before then. My local retailer is getting an order of this Connie. This formulation is pretty close to what I give her now .. http://www.nrgpetproducts.com/maxim.html the chicken version. Jenn Coulter recommended it. I found out the cottage we are renting does have some sort of fridge but it most likely is a relic from the 70's with the small top freezer so I may be able to bring more of her regular diet as well.
> 
> Can you take a look at the link Connie? Just to see how the specs stack up? How long can I go without RMBs with a diet like this for cleaning her teeth? I was figuring that I would give her a chicken thigh every 3 or 4 days.


Oh man, do I hate black background web pages. :lol:

Where does the calcium come from? I see that it says calcium at 95% of RDA, but I don't see a calcium food.

Is there a real ingredients list, including micronutrients?

But yeah, I wouldn't worry about dental plaque when you're giving RMBs every few days, and it's only two weeks.

The canned dog foods recommended earlier are good ones. 

People canned meats and people dehydrated foods aren't suitable because of the lack of bone. Of course, there is no bone in most commercial dog foods, either, but calcium is added to replicate the amount that the dog would get with the muscle meat if he was eating the prey animal.

Giving canned meat meant for people (except as a minor ingredient in the diet) would be like feeding a raw diet of all hamburger and no bones -- a nutritional disaster for dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I have used freeze dried raw food from AFS when camping and traveling with my dogs. Here is their website, link on AFS products
> http://www.animalfood.com/


THAT looks interesting. How does it work? Do you add water?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Forgot to add...THK is really expensive per pound, even with the water added. More so than kibble and probably moreso than even the canned. I use Preference (the veggie mix), but that's cause I don't have a food processor.


It is spendy. Used as kind of a "side dish," it works out OK. As you mentioned, I know other folks too who use it for convenience as the produce part of a raw diet -- reconstituted fairly thin and used kind of like a gravy.

That doesn't help Geoff, of course. :lol:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh man, do I hate black background web pages. :lol:
> 
> Where does the calcium come from? I see that it says calcium at 95% of RDA, but I don't see a calcium food.
> 
> ...


Calcium comes from ground egg shells or so it says on the box next to me.

Real ingredients on my box (buffalo):

Dyhydrated fresh buffalo, squash, carrots, liver (doesn't say what kind), cooked whole egs (including egg shells as a calcium source), grapefruit, wheat germ, broccoli, cranberries, papaya, parsley, and garlic, apple cider, goat milk yogurt, ground flax seed, cidar vinagar, kelp, salmon oil.

Nutrient Analysis
Protein 26%
Fat 18%
Fibre 3.5%
Calcium 0.95%
Phosphorus 0.85%
Sodium 0.30%
Potassium 0.84%
Sulphur 0.31%
Magnesium 0.2%
Copper 3mg/kg
Iron 85mg/kg
Zinc 61 mg/kg
Manganese 52mg/kg
7,516 IU Beta Carotene/kg

VS. Force " Real Ingredients" for example:
Ingredients:
Hormone-free chicken, organic flaxseed, potatoes, celery, sweet potatoes, apples, alfalfa, organic kelp, honey, zucchini, green beans, cabbage, bananas, papayas, yogurt, basil, garlic and rosemary.




Protien 21.0% (min)
Fat 14.0% (min)
Fiber 5.5% (max)
Moisture 7.0% (max)
Calcium1.6% (min)
1.8% (max)
Phosphorus 1.0% (min)
1.2% (max)
Magnesium 0.09% (min)
0.12% (max)
Sodium 0.2% (min)
0.24% (max) 
Force also adds a human grade vitamin supplement, it seems that NRG does not. 


I warned the NRG web sight was bad!!!!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh man, do I hate black background web pages. :lol:
> 
> Where does the calcium come from? I see that it says calcium at 95% of RDA, but I don't see a calcium food.
> 
> Is there a real ingredients list, including micronutrients?


Off the link with the horrible black background \\/ this is the ingredient list ..

_Free range muscle meat (chicken, salmon, or buffalo),
squash, carrots, pumpkin, liver, eggs, grapefruit, 
wheat germ, broccoli, cranberries,papaya, parsley 
and garlic, apple cider, goat milk yogurt, ground flax 
seed, cider vinegar, kelp, blueberries, egg shell, 
salmon oil, coconut oil._

I'm assuming all the calcium is coming from the eggs and the extra eggshell unless you see something different. 

Here is the micronutrient list same page .. 

_Nutrient Analysis
Protein 26%
Fat 18%
Fibre 3.5%
*Calcium 0.95%
Phosphorus 0.85%*
Sodium 0.30%
Potassium 0.84%
Sulphur 0.31%
Magnesium 0.2%
Copper 3mg/kg
Iron 85mg/kg
Zinc 61 mg/kg
Manganese 52mg/kg
7,516 IU Beta Carotene/kg_

Does that Calcium/Phosphorus ratio seem right as a complete diet albeit short term? Remember I will supplement with real RAW chicken parts every few days.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> ... I warned the NRG web sight was bad!!!!


And boy, were you right!

Someone should tell them. I would if I could stand the site long enough to find the "contact us" box. :lol:

I'd feed that food on vacation.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Calcium comes from ground egg shells or so it says on the box next to me.
> 
> I warned the NRG web sight was bad!!!!


Cool, LOL I was writing my post as you were posting. I'm not to worried about their www to me it looks like a smaller operation, goes with the territory.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Cool, LOL I was writing my post as you were posting. I'm not to worried about their www to me it looks like a smaller operation, goes with the territory.


Oh, no, it's not the elegance or inelegance of the site -- it's the unreadability. :lol:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And boy, were you right!
> 
> Someone should tell them. I would if I could stand the site long enough to find the "contact us" box. :lol:
> 
> I'd feed that food on vacation.


Oh even funnier is the box that says:

Dehydrated with %100 Pure Canadian Rockie Mountain Air

I have e-mailed them and told them their website sucked. 

That said I don't have an issue with feeding this on vacation at all.

In fact their site is WAY better than the folks that sponser us with free raw food. If it wasn't for the fact that I pick up the food (unannounced)at the factory, and see them making it, the ingredients as they are comming in, the freezers, the staff, the cleanliness, I would never buy the food because the website is so poor. 

They are a nice older couple who started making raw food for their kennel and some friends and it got a little big. They have NO techno knowledge and when I tell them they need to fix their website to get more business, they tell me they don't want anymore! If I was making it I would change a few things in it, but then when it is free, I just supplement the diet with what I want....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... also has a similar line. Wellness CORE does too, but it's just intended for supplemental feeding, not a long term thing.


Why is it that the Core (no grain) canned is "part of" the diet or a "healthy treat," and the kibble (no grain) version is meant to be a complete diet? Do you know?

I keep meaning to compare the two ingredients lists and figure it out, but haven't done it yet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> .... when I tell them they need to fix their website to get more business, they tell me they don't want anymore! ....


OK, THAT cracks me up. :lol: Maybe they've had too much of their private air supply.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> OK, THAT cracks me up. :lol: Maybe they've had too much of their private air supply.


Never underestimate the power of private clean air. Send me your address Connie and when I'm up at the cottage I'll jar some for you, then send it via express mail so you can have a whiff of it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Never underestimate the power of private clean air. Send me your address Connie and when I'm up at the cottage I'll jar some for you, then send it via express mail so you can have a whiff of it.


OK. Plain brown wrapper, right?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> OK. Plain brown wrapper, right?


With a clean clear jar so you can see the freshness of the product .. can't have it any other way, we don't want the FDA to get involved.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Why is it that the Core (no grain) canned is "part of" the diet or a "healthy treat," and the kibble (no grain) version is meant to be a complete diet? Do you know?
> 
> I keep meaning to compare the two ingredients lists and figure it out, but haven't done it yet.


I'm not sure, but I'm sure it probably has to do with the vitamin/mineral content in the food is not meant to be stand alone according to AAFCO standards.

It's certainly not only Wellness that does this. One of the community practice doctors (who is also a nutrition resident) kind of lamblasted Sheba cat food for doing this as well on some of their lines during a presentation he gave. I think Merrick also had a "dessert line" of stuff like blueberry cobbler or something. The problem with these is that 99% of owners do not read labels AT ALL other than glance at the glossy picture on the front and so when the owner picks up a tin of food and sees "wow, bison! Rex would love that!" or "wow, all seafood! Fluffy will love that!" and doesn't see the "for supplemental feeding only" in itty bitty print. Veterinary nutritionists HATE that cause they'll get in cats or dogs who have been eating nothing but that for months with nutrition deficiencies just cause the owner doesn't look at the label. :-?


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