# 'The Reward' What is the reward in sport bitework?



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey those who work dogs with slipping the sleeve or jambiere, what behaviour are we rewarding when the sleeve is slipped? 

I've been seeing lots of dogs over the years that always assume that they are going to win the sleeve, jambiere, jacket or pants. Then in trial it creates lots of problems with either outs in SchH or recalls in Ringsport. Have you seen dogs that shouldn't be let to win the sleeve. With these types of dogs what is the reward? 

The more I see the sleeve being slipped out side of building real young or green dogs the more I am not so sure I like the practice. 

What do you all think of the practice? What pros and cons do you see with or not slipping the sleeve with an experienced dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Running away from the decoy/helper like a little queer. I hate a dog that needs to "relieve" stress by running in little circles.

When you slip the sleeve, the dog should stand there and wonder why you are a little quitting bitch.

That is just what I like, and I have seen so many people dragging their dogs away it disgusts me. Where are you going ? Do you have any idea why that training came about or did you just watch that idiot Frawleys tapes and assume that was how training was done ?

I wonder how many people just do this without having any idea why ?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Except with very young pups, we never slip the sleeve. It encourages pulling in the grip and that is something we don't want.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Geoff you are ****ing killing me. I thought I had alzheimers or something. HA HA.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

wouldn't the opposite be a dog that always anticipates the out?
I am not saying one is right or wrong just wouldn't you prefer a balance of approaches?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> wouldn't the opposite be a dog that always anticipates the out?
> I am not saying one is right or wrong just wouldn't you prefer a balance of approaches?


Do you mean they would out too soon?

Normally, making them out is much more difficult then having them out too soon.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Geoff you are ****ing killing me. I thought I had alzheimers or something. HA HA.


Nope you just got old-timers like me ..sorry about that I farked up by changing out of a poll then it wouldn't let me delete the 2nd post ..



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I wonder how many people just do this without having any idea why ?


I can never get a straight answer because I don't think most people actually know why. Some say it is "to promote a calm grip by running the circles etc etc." 



Will Fernandez said:


> n my arena with young dogs we remove the dog from the bite and chase the decoy away. When the dog is older he will be outed and the decoy will leave the area or be assisted away by the other handlers like on the street. No slipping sleeves or bite jackets.


This is police work Will? 



Martine Loots said:


> Except with very young pups, we never slip the sleeve. It encourages pulling in the grip and that is something we don't want.


That's exactly what I have seen over and over a dog that will push gets turned into a pulling grip and again creates dogs that seem more equipment oriented than wanting to push push push until they feel the decoys bones through the suit. 



Mike Lauer said:


> wouldn't the opposite be a dog that always anticipates the out?
> I am not saying one is right or wrong just wouldn't you prefer a balance of approaches?


You could be right especially if the dog was repeatably outed without reward. Which brings me to how do we reward if someone doesn't slip the bite item? 

Is it eye contact and then being sent for another bite, ball, food a pat on the head?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> You could be right especially if the dog was repeatably outed without reward. Which brings me to how do we reward if someone doesn't slip the bite item?
> 
> Is it eye contact and then being sent for another bite, ball, food a pat on the head?


At first you "teach" the dog the out and then he gets a reward (like a tug or something)

By the time he matures he'll know what you mean and then he "has to" do it. If not he'll be punished.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

If you're working in defense then the bite is the reward. If you're working in prey then running away with the prey is the reward.

Only time the running gets annoying to me is when I get stuck running in five or six circles while our trainer is telling the helper a bunch of things to change with the next bite. Running and running and running and wearing out my dog so we get a long session with few bites.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Martine Loots said:


> Except with very young pups, we never slip the sleeve. It encourages pulling in the grip and that is something we don't want.


Yes, this is how I do it also.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I can never get a straight answer because I don't think most people actually know why. Some say it is "to promote a calm grip by running the circles etc etc." 

It was originally for weaker dogs to run off the stress, and keep the prize to make it more important. 

Jackie, I would just stop and have the dog take it back to the helper. Kind of a shut up and talk about this shit on your own time thing. HA HA.

If you go to my thread that I posted on Sarah and Elizabeth, you will see Minty doing it the right way, which is to never want to leave.

If running away from the helper is a reward, then you are in big trouble.

I do not mind a dog that takes off with the toy, and then comes whipping back and smashes you with it. 

Some people do just insist on running away from you, and the pup is trying to get back to the decoy/helper. Those are the people I want to stab in the neck.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Only time the running gets annoying to me is when I get stuck running in five or six circles while our trainer is telling the helper a bunch of things to change with the next bite. Running and running and running and wearing out my dog so we get a long session with few bites.


That happened to me last weekend. I was getting over the flu and I finally just had to stop running so I wouldn't cough out a lung. :-({|=


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> Except with very young pups, we never slip the sleeve. It encourages pulling in the grip and that is something we don't want.


Maybe this is why I mainly see this in Sch clubs? Because many of them do what the dog to pull as the preferred flighting style. Actually I've seen Sch helpers specifically sliip the sleeve when the dog pulls the hardest, this was how Kita's foundation was done since she spent the first part of her "career" at a Sch club.

I think it's somewhat of a catch-22 technique. The dogs who might benefit from carrying, focusing more on the prey item, are the ones least likely to do it, and the dogs who should probably be focusing more on the man will carry all day long.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jackie, I would just stop and have the dog take it back to the helper. Kind of a shut up and talk about this shit on your own time thing. HA HA.
> 
> I do not mind a dog that takes off with the toy, and then comes whipping back and smashes you with it.


If I go in more than three circles I run the dog over and give 'em a reminder of what we're doing. Or rather, I let the dog. 8)


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Some people do just insist on running away from you, and the pup is trying to get back to the decoy/helper. Those are the people I want to stab in the neck.


Do you mean after a bitework session the decoy working up the drive on the dog as the owner pulls them away back to the car?


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Christopher Jones said:


> Do you mean after a bitework session the decoy working up the drive on the dog as the owner pulls them away back to the car?


I believe he's talking about running away in circles after winning the sleeve.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Even earlier, when the puppy has the rag, they start dragging him away. He wants to give it back, and they are off to the races.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Even earlier, when the puppy has the rag, they start dragging him away. He wants to give it back, and they are off to the races.


Ok so you are talking about when the pup has the tug/sleeve in its mouth, not when the session is finished and the pup is leaving the field.


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