# Cost of a Stud?



## Haz Othman

Seems like every few years we get big name dogs being sold over here. Or prospective younger stud dogs.
Obviously dont want exact dollars and cents but roughly what does a dog like Drago or Bomber run you? Or maybe a less well known dog like Bandit V Wolfshiem Caro or Lubeck? 
Have always been curious.


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## Tiago Fontes

Haz Othman said:


> Seems like every few years we get big name dogs being sold over here. Or prospective younger stud dogs.
> Obviously dont want exact dollars and cents but roughly what does a dog like Drago or Bomber run you? Or maybe a less well known dog like Bandit V Wolfshiem Caro or Lubeck?
> Have always been curious.


Guessing here:

But I think you wouldnt be looking at anything under 40k.


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## Haz Othman

Tiago Fontes said:


> Guessing here:
> 
> But I think you wouldnt be looking at anything under 40k.


Are we talking Drago type or a less well known dog like Bandit?


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## Gus Pineda

most I've seen are roughly the cost of a pup, but like pups, there will always be someone who wants 10 times more. Among (my) friends, 1 pup if between 2-6 pups, 2 pups if more than 6 are born.


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## Haz Othman

Gus Pineda said:


> most I've seen are roughly the cost of a pup, but like pups, there will always be someone who wants 10 times more. Among (my) friends, 1 pup if between 2-6 pups, 2 pups if more than 6 are born.


 
Not the fee the dog itself is what Im talking about.


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## Tiago Fontes

Haz Othman said:


> Are we talking Drago type or a less well known dog like Bandit?


Hey Haz, 

I have no idea. Just threw a number of what I thought would be the price for those dogs. Could cost more, could cost less.


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## Gus Pineda

Haz Othman said:


> Not the fee the dog itself is what Im talking about.


ooohhhhhh, gotcha.


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## Britney Pelletier

hate to say it, but it really all depends on who you know and who you buy the dog from.

Many dogs are sold for FAR above their actual worth, all because there was someone willing to pay it. Many are also sold for pennies in comparison because you came across a seller who was a lot more realistic. I have been very lucky to purchase some very nice dogs from Europe over the last several years and have mostly experienced the latter.


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## Haz Othman

Britney Pelletier said:


> hate to say it, but it really all depends on who you know and who you buy the dog from.
> 
> Many dogs are sold for FAR above their actual worth, all because there was someone willing to pay it. Many are also sold for pennies in comparison because you came across a seller who was a lot more realistic. I have been very lucky to purchase some very nice dogs from Europe over the last several years and have mostly experienced the latter.


Yes I suppose if you have a go between it helps. You purchased a Vito son recently that looked good any pups yet? 
Its weird that there is so much secrecy, seems like there is less with horses cattle etc. Even knpv dogs, Mike gave good info on the going rate for a good dog. 7-10k if I recall correctly


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## Joby Becker

Haz Othman said:


> Yes I suppose if you have a go between it helps. You purchased a Vito son recently that looked good any pups yet?
> Its weird that there is so much secrecy, seems like there is less with horses cattle etc. Even knpv dogs, Mike gave good info on the going rate for a good dog. 7-10k if I recall correctly


I think ther is a pretty big difference between a "good dog", and a "Good Proven Stud Dog".


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## Sarah Platts

Joby Becker said:


> a "Good Proven Stud Dog".


What steps are necessary to fall into this category? How many litters? What qualifications achieved by the puppies? Do certain number of pups have to attain this qualification? A percentage of the total number of pups born? How much time usually elapses before a "good dog" becomes a "good proven stud"?


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## Howard Gaines III

Sarah Platts said:


> What steps are necessary to fall into this category? How many litters? What qualifications achieved by the puppies? Do certain number of pups have to attain this qualification? A percentage of the total number of pups born? How much time usually elapses before a "good dog" becomes a "good proven stud"?


 I want one that reproduces itself within the litter. Proven only means it can reproduce, IMO, I want to see the best of both parents in a litter. None of this means anything IF the female is a bad mother as she is the one they see for 7-10 weeks.8-[


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## Sarah Platts

Howard Gaines III said:


> I want one that reproduces itself within the litter. Proven only means it can reproduce, IMO, I want to see the best of both parents in a litter. None of this means anything IF the female is a bad mother as she is the one they see for 7-10 weeks.8-[


And how long does this take? Say a dog takes 2-3 years to gain the level of criteria that says you want to breed him. Do you only use selected bitches? All bitches? One? Two? 

Then the pups get born and it takes them 2-3 years to make their mark. So it may take 4-5 years to see the grown and demonstrated results. Because it's not just his first crop but 2nd and third also. So now the stud is 8-9 years old. Is this the way it works? 

But how many pups does it take? You could have one litter (out of how many) where the genes link up great or certain cross works better than others. Do you base it on the one or the many?

On average, how many litters get born, tracked, followed to maturity and tested? How many of his get must meet the mark to make the claim of 'proven'?


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## Joby Becker

I thought the question was how much will a good proven stud dog like Drago or Bomber cost.

I think that depends on the breed, who has the dog and who wants the dog.

good proven means good proven.

proven means proven.

sorry for the confusion.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sarah Platts said:


> What steps are necessary to fall into this category? How many litters? What qualifications achieved by the puppies? Do certain number of pups have to attain this qualification? A percentage of the total number of pups born? How much time usually elapses before a "good dog" becomes a "good proven stud"?


I don't think its is as much as how many litters as bitches of different lines/families. I think within a specific geographic area where people have the opportunity to see puppies and young dogs develop over time, it will be real obvious how particular dogs produce--bitches and dogs. I once picked a stud dog after seeing puppies from four different litters/bitches. They were consistent and he produced his good points, several of which, the bitch didn't have. I bred to him and he produced himself. Similarly, the dam, bred to two different dogs/lines, produced her good points. The keeps of both of those litters were improvements upon both their sire and dam.

T


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## Haz Othman

Was talking to someone in the dog game today and the speculated number for Drago/Bomber was 70k.


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## Stefan Schaub

Haz Othman said:


> Was talking to someone in the dog game today and the speculated number for Drago/Bomber was 70k.


yes and a Lincoln on the top


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## Haz Othman

Ill take that as a no . What do you think Stephan? What would Bomber cost as opposed to a less well known male?


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## Stefan Schaub

Haz Othman said:


> Ill take that as a no . What do you think Stephan? What would Bomber cost as opposed to a less well known male?


The question should be!!! Why was he sold??


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> The question should be!!! Why was he sold??



Because someone paid the right amount of money...


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## Hunter Allred

Tiago Fontes said:


> Because someone paid the right amount of money...


Everyone has their price!


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## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> Because someone paid the right amount of money...


right!!!
so maybe someone paid 120000$??
studs in sv germany regulations!!!60 for germany +30 for outside countries a year, 3 years 240studs= 240 studs times 500 euro 120000euro (166000$) in 3 years. for sure i would sell my dog than.

Drago have make in 2011/12 134 studs=67000Euro


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## Ben Thompson

Stefan Schaub said:


> The question should be!!! Why was he sold??


 Whats good over there can be great here.


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## Hunter Allred

Ben Thompson said:


> Whats good over there can be great here.


There are plenty of great dogs by any ones measure from any side of the world being bred here in the US.


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## Haz Othman

They sold Drago but then he went back for more breedings, not exactly a sign of a crap dog.. Is 70k really outragious if he can make 6700 Euro a year in Germany doing stud service?

So what about Leon vd Staatmacht Stephan give me a ballpark what that quality of dog should go for. He is a good dog but maybe not as popular like Bomber or Drago.


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## Daniel Lybbert

6700 a year x 8 years?= 53600 plus food vet training equipment etc. Not 70000.


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## Haz Othman

Daniel Lybbert said:


> 6700 a year x 8 years?= 53600 plus food vet training equipment etc. Not 70000.


 
That doesnt include all the pups your selling for top dollar when you breed him to your females. Not saying 70k is fair or anything..I really dont know.


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## Joby Becker

thats 67000 not 6700


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## Ben Thompson

Hunter Allred said:


> There are plenty of great dogs by any ones measure from any side of the world being bred here in the US.


 Alot of the dogs I want to get a pup off of are from imported studs and brood bitches.We just don't have the interest in dog sports they do.


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## Hunter Allred

Ben Thompson said:


> Alot of the dogs I want to get a pup off of are from imported studs and brood bitches.We just don't have the interest in dog sports they do.


True but that doesn't mean some of the best dogs aren't originating from outside Europe. As Stefan pointed out, it doesn't make financial sense to export your top stud. So what's imported vs what's produced here is ever more in favor of what's produced here


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## Stefan Schaub

Daniel Lybbert said:


> 6700 a year x 8 years?= 53600 plus food vet training equipment etc. Not 70000.


he have make 67000 in two years


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## Stefan Schaub

Haz Othman said:


> They sold Drago but then he went back for more breedings, not exactly a sign of a crap dog.. Is 70k really outragious if he can make 6700 Euro a year in Germany doing stud service?
> 
> So what about Leon vd Staatmacht Stephan give me a ballpark what that quality of dog should go for. He is a good dog but maybe not as popular like Bomber or Drago.


He was sold because his back was done.Spondylose. after a while people fond out and studs get less and less.


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## Hunter Allred

What about the argument that its not supposed to be about money, its supposed to be about bettering the breed... so give me the top stud for free to improve the local bloodlines lol


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## Hunter Allred

Stefan Schaub said:


> He was sold because his back was done.Spondylose. after a while people fond out and studs get less and less.


Less studding because there is a genetic element to it?

BTW, it would please you to know in the past month we've had an influx of very experienced handlers/trainers and a helper at the club . One couple from Germany, and one couple from Slovakia. So now I'm getting all that help I need ;-)


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## Stefan Schaub

Hunter Allred said:


> What about the argument that its not supposed to be about money, its supposed to be about bettering the breed... so give me the top stud for free to improve the local bloodlines lol


right!!because you give all the puppies than for free,plus free training,free food and free vet for a few years.if someone have the luck to get a puppy with breed quality and than spend a lot of time and training in it, than he should also get his money back.
Drago was like a small power ball win.


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## Stefan Schaub

Hunter Allred said:


> Less studding because there is a genetic element to it?
> 
> BTW, it would please you to know in the past month we've had an influx of very experienced handlers/trainers and a helper at the club . One couple from Germany, and one couple from Slovakia. So now I'm getting all that help I need ;-)


that is great!!!!(for the help)

one vet say it is the other it is not. but why use a sick dog for breeding.does it improve the breed? i like playing with fire but sick is sick!!!!
here in the US is a big hype with DM testing,but the real problem in gsd is spondylose and caudal equina. so all the nice DM test do not really tell you if the back is clear. maybe we should go back to the straight wall and than we see who is able to get over it or not.


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## susan tuck

Stefan Schaub said:


> that is great!!!!(for the help)
> 
> one vet say it is the other it is not. but why use a sick dog for breeding.does it improve the breed? i like playing with fire but sick is sick!!!!
> here in the US is a big hype with DM testing,but the real problem in gsd is spondylose and caudal equina. so all the nice DM test do not really tell you if the back is clear. maybe we should go back to the straight wall and than we see who is able to get over it or not.


Sorry to hear that about Leon. I agree with your statement about backs and I think adding the Palisade back into schH would be a very good idea.


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## Christopher Smith

stefan schaub said:


> maybe we should go back to the straight wall and than we see who is able to get over it or not.


HAHA! I think Stefan is a fan of science fiction.


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## Stefan Schaub

Christopher Smith said:


> HAHA! I think Stefan is a fan of science fiction.


not really!! but my mind is that every X-ray in the world is a f…. scam.

no one knows who have lay on the table,how much the vet have done to bring the dog in form that it fits, why does the sv want a id X-ray after 30 studs??
If a dog after 3 years is still able to go over the wall his bones can not be too bad.


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## Hunter Allred

Stefan Schaub said:


> not really!! but my mind is that every X-ray in the world is a f…. scam.
> 
> no one knows who have lay on the table,how much the vet have done to bring the dog in form that it fits, why does the sv want a id X-ray after 30 studs??
> If a dog after 3 years is still able to go over the wall his bones can not be too bad.


I've had two veterinary orthopedic surgeons tell me "we really don't know all that much about HD. I've seen too many dogs with horrid X-rays with great placement never show a symptom over a 10+ year life and dogs with amazing X-ray's act like they are in severe pain their entire life"


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> not really!! but my mind is that every X-ray in the world is a f…. scam.
> 
> no one knows who have lay on the table,how much the vet have done to bring the dog in form that it fits, why does the sv want a id X-ray after 30 studs??
> If a dog after 3 years is still able to go over the wall his bones can not be too bad.


I x-ray my dogs, but I think the same way you do...if the dog performs until old age...who am I to say his bones are crap?


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## Ben Thompson

Stefan you gotta make sure they keep the stick hits in before you can concider bringing the wall back.


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## Haz Othman

I think Stephan was saying Drago had back issues not Leon.


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## jamie lind

Haz Othman said:


> I think Stephan was saying Drago had back issues not Leon.


No leon not drago.


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## Gus Pineda

Haz Othman said:


> I think Stephan was saying Drago had back issues not Leon.


That's how I read it as well.


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## Stefan Schaub

Gus Pineda said:


> That's how I read it as well.


Leon Staatsmacht!!!!!


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## Haz Othman

My mistake, its a pity I loved his protection vids.


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## Bob Scott

Hunter Allred said:


> I've had two veterinary orthopedic surgeons tell me "we really don't know all that much about HD. I've seen too many dogs with horrid X-rays with great placement never show a symptom over a 10+ year life and dogs with amazing X-ray's act like they are in severe pain their entire life"



100% agree!
One of my GSDs was xrayed at 2yrs old and graded "Moderate HD". He was always an excellent jumper. He's now 10+ and just in the past 10-12 months he's slowing down in the hips. The vet says it's more arthritis then just the HD. 
I "believe" the possibility of another gene that allows one dog to to have no pain or a higher pain tolerance that allows it to perform at a high level. 
One of my sisters had a Husky that was put down at 6-7 months old even though xrays showed very mild HD.


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## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> 100% agree!
> One of my GSDs was xrayed at 2yrs old and graded "Moderate HD". He was always an excellent jumper. He's now 10+ and just in the past 10-12 months he's slowing down in the hips. The vet says it's more arthritis then just the HD.
> I "believe" the possibility of another gene that allows one dog to to have no pain or a higher pain tolerance that allows it to perform at a high level.
> One of my sisters had a Husky that was put down at 6-7 months old even though xrays showed very mild HD.


My old Zorba v Tiekerhook had SHITTY hips and SHITTY elbows, and SHITTY shoulders, and a SHITTY back, he had back surgery when he was 9 and other than that, had no problems and didn't act painful until he was 10, then I had one of his hips replaced. After that he got bone cancer in the other hind leg but that's got nothing to do with this.

F****ing GSDs...If it's not one thing it's another...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> not really!! but my mind is that every X-ray in the world is a f…. scam.
> 
> no one knows who have lay on the table,how much the vet have done to bring the dog in form that it fits, why does the sv want a id X-ray after 30 studs??
> If a dog after 3 years is still able to go over the wall his bones can not be too bad.


Dogs will often disregard pain in drive. 3 years is nothing. How about 8-10. The DM test is faulty. They are about at the point of openly admitting that. Clears and carriers have had DM on necropsy. A dog related to one of mine that was symptomatic and at risk by test, was DM negative on necropsy. There were other findings that could have been a basis for the clinical symptoms. X-rays and/or technique isn't the issue. Accepting the findings and selecting accordingly is.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hunter Allred said:


> I've had two veterinary orthopedic surgeons tell me "we really don't know all that much about HD. I've seen too many dogs with horrid X-rays with great placement never show a symptom over a 10+ year life and dogs with amazing X-ray's act like they are in severe pain their entire life"


We know that when you select against GSD, we reduce the frequency of it.

T


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## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Dogs will often disregard pain in drive. 3 years is nothing. How about 8-10.
> T


This is what I think too. I think my old dog probably had a lot of pain for a long time, he just didn't let it slow him down, which is not the same at all as not feeling pain. So the question becomes since the dog will work despite the pain, is that good enough. For me, no, I don't want that for my dogs.



Bob Scott said:


> I "believe" the possibility of another gene that allows one dog to to have no pain or a higher pain tolerance that allows it to perform at a high level.
> One of my sisters had a Husky that was put down at 6-7 months old even though xrays showed very mild HD.


I've not heard anything about this, but would love this to be true, much better than the thought of the dogs just powering through, despite the pain.


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## Michael Murphy

the working GSD is done, they must outcross to healthy malinois to have any chance of regaining some of their glory


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## Hunter Allred

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> We know that when you select against GSD, we reduce the frequency of it.
> 
> T


Do what now? Saying we should just throw out the GSD all together?


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## Hunter Allred

susan tuck said:


> This is what I think too. I think my old dog probably had a lot of pain for a long time, he just didn't let it slow him down, which is not the same at all as not feeling pain. So the question becomes since the dog will work despite the pain, is that good enough. For me, no, I don't want that for my dogs.
> 
> I've not heard anything about this, but would love this to be true, much better than the thought of the dogs just powering through, despite the pain.


I think, dare I say I know, if one pursues a lifetime of active and rigorous activities there will be, without a doubt, pain. My males grand sire was OFA fair. He also had a 9 year career as a swat dog, and competed in sport as well. That's a good life and what a shame it would have been if OFA fair put him on the couch for life. 

By 16 I was skydiving and racing enduro/motocross. At 18 I joined the Marines. I'm my 20s I did submission fighting for years. At 27 I broke my back in a few places on a motocross track. Now I'm doing helper work many times a week for years now. Do I feel pain? Of course. I feel it in all my joints. I feel pain everywhere except for one place that spinal nerve damage rendered unsensitive. I expect to feel pain. Will it get worse? I'm sure. Will I likely be using a walker (again)? Probably. Am I suffering? Nope. I enjoy it and have enjoyed it every step along the way. The prize is worth the price. A good dog I view the same way.


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## Hunter Allred

Michael Murphy said:


> the working GSD is done, they must outcross to healthy malinois to have any chance of regaining some of their glory


Lol if you say so.


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## Stefan Schaub

Michael Murphy said:


> the working GSD is done, they must outcross to healthy malinois to have any chance of regaining some of their glory



thank you!!you make my morning way more funny than it was .


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## susan tuck

Hunter Allred said:


> I think, dare I say I know, if one pursues a lifetime of active and rigorous activities there will be, without a doubt, pain. My males grand sire was OFA fair. He also had a 9 year career as a swat dog, and competed in sport as well. That's a good life and what a shame it would have been if OFA fair put him on the couch for life.


Who said anything about not working a dog with OFA Fair hips? It's a passing grade, why wouldn't the dog be worked? In fact no one anywhere said a dog with bad hips shouldn't be worked, especially since muscle tone will help a dog with bad hips. That sure doesn't mean I want to discount the issue of hips or disgregard because if the dog has a ton of drive he will push through the pain.

Yes, of course people work with aches and pains, as do dogs, but there's also plenty of people who would love to be able to work but can't because the pain is so severe I guess then using your analogy those people just don't have enough drive?


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## Hunter Allred

susan tuck said:


> Who said anything about not working a dog with OFA Fair hips? It's a passing grade, why wouldn't the dog be worked? In fact no one anywhere said a dog with bad hips shouldn't be worked, especially since muscle tone will help a dog with bad hips. That sure doesn't mean I want to discount the issue of hips or disgregard because if the dog has a ton of drive he will push through the pain.
> 
> Yes, of course people work with aches and pains, as do dogs, but there's also plenty of people who would love to be able to work but can't because the pain is so severe I guess then using your analogy those people just don't have enough drive?


Well the thing I was addressing was "if a dog feels any pain but works through it, is that bad"

Yes that analogy is somewhat what I meant. Ofcourse there are people with very severe pain who cannot do anything, and those with mild pain who also "cannot do anything". Theres no way to compare one humans pain threshold to anothers with any sort of reliable method.... however some people let pain stop them, and some do not, and I think we can agree on that


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## susan tuck

Hunter Allred said:


> Well the thing I was addressing was "if a dog feels any pain but works through it, is that bad"
> 
> Yes that analogy is somewhat what I meant. Ofcourse there are people with very severe pain who cannot do anything, and those with mild pain who also "cannot do anything". Theres no way to compare one humans pain threshold to anothers with any sort of reliable method.... however some people let pain stop them, and some do not, and I think we can agree on that


"some people let pain stop them". Hunter there is also the type of pain that is so bad that even you, superman, wouldn't be able to work through it. :smile: 

So anyway, what's your point? We should purposely breed shitty hips into dogs so we can know we have the kind of dogs that "won't let pain stop them"?


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## Hunter Allred

susan tuck said:


> "some people let pain stop them". Hunter there is also the type of pain that is so bad that even you, superman, wouldn't be able to work through it. :smile:
> 
> So anyway, what's your point? We should purposely breed shitty hips into dogs so we can know we have the kind of dogs that "won't let pain stop them"?


Certainly there is that level of pain for every person/animal. I just haven't had it yet, and I've experienced enough to have a decent handle on I have a higher pain tolerance than most. Thats not me proclaiming "super status", its just a simple objective observation.

The point was as I stated above. The question was brought forth if a dog had shitty xrays, but no symptoms, was it just the case that his pain tolerance was too great to show symptoms and should such a dog be worked anyway... 

I think you know the answer to the last question which I don't think anyway would disagree


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## susan tuck

Hunter Allred said:


> Certainly there is that level of pain for every person/animal. I just haven't had it yet, and I've experienced enough to have a decent handle on I have a higher pain tolerance than most. Thats not me proclaiming "super status", its just a simple objective observation.
> 
> The point was as I stated above. The question was brought forth if a dog had shitty xrays, but no symptoms, was it just the case that his pain tolerance was too great to show symptoms and should such a dog be worked anyway...
> 
> I think you know the answer to the last question which I don't think anyway would disagree


Unless I'm missing something (and it wouldn't be the first time), I think you're referring to my post?: 

"So the question becomes since the dog will work despite the pain, is that good enough. For me, no, I don't want that for my dogs."

I can see why you would think I meant if a dog is in pain it therefore shouldn't be worked, (because my grammar SUCKS), but that's not actually what I was trying to say. I meant SINCE a high drive dog will work despite the pain, is that good enough reason to not be concerned with breeding bad hips, that's what I meant by "I don't want that for my dogs". 

As far as the Superman remark, that was meant to be funny, not a dig at all. I actually find inspiration in people who work through severe pain.


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## Gregory Doud

Hunter Allred said:


> Well the thing I was addressing was "if a dog feels any pain but works through it, is that bad"
> 
> Yes that analogy is somewhat what I meant. Ofcourse there are people with very severe pain who cannot do anything, and those with mild pain who also "cannot do anything". Theres no way to compare one humans pain threshold to anothers with any sort of reliable method.... however some people let pain stop them, and some do not, and I think we can agree on that


Scientifically, the definition you are discussing is pain tolerance. There is a huge difference between pain threshold and pain tolerance. Evidence suggests that pain threshold is genetic and cannot be changed. Science has proven that pain tolerance can be changed if it is built up gradually - you see it practiced in combat sports all the time. It is crucial to be aware of the two differences especially if you do any sort of protection work. - Greg


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## Hunter Allred

susan tuck said:


> Unless I'm missing something (and it wouldn't be the first time), I think you're referring to my post?:
> 
> "So the question becomes since the dog will work despite the pain, is that good enough. For me, no, I don't want that for my dogs."
> 
> I can see why you would think I meant if a dog is in pain it therefore shouldn't be worked, (because my grammar SUCKS), but that's not actually what I was trying to say. I meant SINCE a high drive dog will work despite the pain, is that good enough reason to not be concerned with breeding bad hips, that's what I meant by "I don't want that for my dogs".
> 
> As far as the Superman remark, that was meant to be funny, not a dig at all. I actually find inspiration in people who work through severe pain.


We are in agreement. I meant only to explain that there will always be some level of pain involved with any dog (or person) that is highly active.


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## Hunter Allred

Gregory Doud said:


> Scientifically, the definition you are discussing is pain tolerance. There is a huge difference between pain threshold and pain tolerance. Evidence suggests that pain threshold is genetic and cannot be changed. Science has proven that pain tolerance can be changed if it is built up gradually - you see it practiced in combat sports all the time. It is crucial to be aware of the two differences especially if you do any sort of protection work. - Greg


Poor wording on my part. I meant the threshold at which the person stops the activity due to pain, not the threshold at which pain is first experienced.


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## susan tuck

Hunter Allred said:


> We are in agreement. I meant only to explain that there will always be some level of pain involved with any dog (or person) that is highly active.


yes, agreed. :smile:


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## susan tuck

Gregory Doud said:


> Scientifically, the definition you are discussing is pain tolerance. There is a huge difference between pain threshold and pain tolerance. Evidence suggests that pain threshold is genetic and cannot be changed. Science has proven that pain tolerance can be changed if it is built up gradually - you see it practiced in combat sports all the time. It is crucial to be aware of the two differences especially if you do any sort of protection work. - Greg


Greg I've not heard this before about methods to increase pain tolerance, but would seriously like to know how it's done. Can you (or anyone who is familiar with the technique) point me in the direction of website articles that address increasing pain tolerance? Is it a method of desensitization?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hunter Allred said:


> We are in agreement. I meant only to explain that there will always be some level of pain involved with any dog (or person) that is highly active.


What do you base this statement on. I work dogs over the course of their lives 8-10+ years and there is no level of pain. Structure and health determine this. Do dogs push through pain to perform what they want? Sure. Does it justify continued breeding of negative health traits? No. This baby and bathwater argument has ruled GSDs and its the reason the breed is in the state it is in. Noch Zuch bred to fast normal????? Reliance upon 1 year x-rays? As long at it bites and people can win, they don't ask questions and insist on things like spine x-rays and appropriate age hip/elbow certifications. Cost of stud?? Pure marketing and hype most of the time. Who will delve past the surface and look for the health production. Interesting the working line Mals in this area are popping up with the same issues--hips, ACL, etc. My first herding dog was x-rayed dysplastic in all four extremities when she was 2. She came from one of those baby and bathwater pedigrees and some of those surgically fixed UAP elbows. She was asymptomatic until she was 5--in the prime of her working career. Had to retire her--couldn't cover her livestock and issues getting in my Camry. Would she have continued to work--in a heartbeat. Would it have been fair to her? No. Everyone has a story of a dog that was asymptomatic or had so called pain tolerance or could scale a wall. Means absolutely nothing when it comes to making breeding decisions. Its just avoidance and continuing to gamble.

T


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## Hunter Allred

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What do you base this statement on. I work dogs over the course of their lives 8-10+ years and there is no level of pain. Structure and health determine this. Do dogs push through pain to perform what they want? Sure. Does it justify continued breeding of negative health traits? No. This baby and bathwater argument has ruled GSDs and its the reason the breed is in the state it is in. Noch Zuch bred to fast normal????? Reliance upon 1 year x-rays? As long at it bites and people can win, they don't ask questions and insist on things like spine x-rays and appropriate age hip/elbow certifications. Cost of stud?? Pure marketing and hype most of the time. Who will delve past the surface and look for the health production. Interesting the working line Mals in this area are popping up with the same issues--hips, ACL, etc. My first herding dog was x-rayed dysplastic in all four extremities when she was 2. She came from one of those baby and bathwater pedigrees and some of those surgically fixed UAP elbows. She was asymptomatic until she was 5--in the prime of her working career. Had to retire her--couldn't cover her livestock and issues getting in my Camry. Would she have continued to work--in a heartbeat. Would it have been fair to her? No. Everyone has a story of a dog that was asymptomatic or had so called pain tolerance or could scale a wall. Means absolutely nothing when it comes to making breeding decisions. Its just avoidance and continuing to gamble.
> 
> T


I'm not talking about "can't get in the camry" level pain. I'm talking about "having a beer on my couch right now as I check the forum because a long hard life makes me feel a little constant pain" level pain. Of course I wouldn't agree either with breeding poor health traits regardless of the motivation, but money being the most distasteful to me.


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## Haz Othman

We can all agree pain is bad. 
Now back to how much studs cost..lol. Maybe Mike Murphy can give us some insight into what he would charge for a male Shepinois.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hunter Allred said:


> I'm not talking about "can't get in the camry" level pain. I'm talking about "having a beer on my couch right now as I check the forum because a long hard life makes me feel a little constant pain" level pain. Of course I wouldn't agree either with breeding poor health traits regardless of the motivation, but money being the most distasteful to me.


Don't assume all have had a long hard life. High activity doesn't always equal injury or pain.

T


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## Hunter Allred

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don't assume all have had a long hard life. High activity doesn't always equal injury or pain.
> 
> T


Allow me to rephrase then. High *risk* activities lol


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## Bob Scott

susan tuck said:


> This is what I think too. I think my old dog probably had a lot of pain for a long time, he just didn't let it slow him down, which is not the same at all as not feeling pain. So the question becomes since the dog will work despite the pain, is that good enough. For me, no, I don't want that for my dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> I've not heard anything about this, but would love this to be true, much better than the thought of the dogs just powering through, despite the pain.




I had a GSD x Dane that was put down because of advanced DM. The vet said he was in no pain because of the degenerative nerves in his spine but he no longer could use his back legs. This is also one of the not uncommon health problems in the GSD. 
I was always lery of the Dane side in him because of their 6-7 yr life expectancy but it was the GSD issue that got him at 9yrs old.


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## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> I had a GSD x Dane that was put down because of advanced DM. The vet said he was in no pain because of the degenerative nerves in his spine but he no longer could use his back legs. This is also one of the not uncommon health problems in the GSD.
> I was always lery of the Dane side in him because of their 6-7 yr life expectancy but it was the GSD issue that got him at 9yrs old.


The GSD I had right before I got the Tiekerhook dog had the same thing happen, and was diagnosed with DM in 1989. Though years later my vet told me that knowing what he now knew about discs and GSDs he always wondered if it might have been an injured disc rather than DM, but who knows, right?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I've seen DM estimated at 50% in Pembroke Welsh Corgis [the breed used in the UMC study]--particularly Rhemy's sire line. One of the things we are looking at is dogs that are at risk and never acquire the disease. A couple of breeders swear that vaccines and commercial kibble are a factor. Cancer vet Dr. Messonier concurs regarding vaccines. 

T


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## Bob Scott

This was back in the early/mid 80s. The first sign was the dog would stand on the knuckles of his rear feet and he would go up the deck steps backwards. 
I don't really know it those signs could have bee a disk problem but at the time the vet said they we're sure signs of DM. 
Again, this was in the 80s so I have no idea how far it's come since that time


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Bob Scott said:


> This was back in the early/mid 80s. The first sign was the dog would stand on the knuckles of his rear feet and he would go up the deck steps backwards.
> I don't really know it those signs could have bee a disk problem but at the time the vet said they we're sure signs of DM.
> Again, this was in the 80s so I have no idea how far it's come since that time


Proprioception loss can be a DM or disc/nerve sign. Big difference is that usually in disc/nerve, there is a pain generator like Bob's vet said. In Pembrokes the age range is generally 10+. But of course the fear is that number becoming less. The problem is that there are other spinal neurological diseases that have the same symptoms as DM. I wonder what the frequency is in other countries with the same pedigrees.

T


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## susan tuck

The signs of a herniated disc mimic those of DM, you can't tell which it is by physical examination. Left untreated a herniated disc will result in total paralysis, nowadays it's possible to determine if it's a herniated disc by performing an MRI, CT or Myelogram.


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## John Wolf

susan tuck said:


> Greg I've not heard this before about methods to increase pain tolerance, but would seriously like to know how it's done. Can you (or anyone who is familiar with the technique) point me in the direction of website articles that address increasing pain tolerance? Is it a method of desensitization?


Susan, I can't address any specific articles or methods specifically, but I would imagine it would be how a lot of people inadvertently do it with the improper use of an e-collar. Just keep dialing it up and when the dog acclimates itself to that go higher.


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