# Bite work with other breeds



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Any experience with Boxers or American Bulldogs and the bite work with these breeds. Have you found any problems in the bite or their drives in the protection mode?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

AB's start off well, then melt under the amount of control needed to do compete, or even DO the higher levels of sport. Basically shitters for the most part.

I like AB's, they are cute pets.

Boxers internalize their stress too much for my taste, and I have not seen any that I would do anything with other than goof around. I REALLY like their personalities though.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Howard- I do have an AB or two and Jeff is right "kind of" there are many that just can't take it but there are a few select people breeding some nicer ones that can. My Lasher did have a problem when we first started in with the control. It took a few months of work to fine tune it and the grips came back great. Looking back now I think we rushed through the foundation because he seemed ready- poor training on my part. He is solid and hard. He does tend to get a little over drive and I still have to cap him when we are working on exercizes. Totally different from the GSD I am training. I usually have very short sessions- I was taught that "less is more" with these kinds of dogs. Plus they get winded quicker. 

Also I have a very good friend from Germany who trains in my club- she has imported Euro Boxers. There is a huge difference when comparing American Show Boxers to Euro Boxers. It is like comparing American GSD's with European Working Line GSD's . What I have noticed is they are also slower to mature but again alot of fun.

http://www.workingamericanbulldogassociation.com/


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## mark chase (May 7, 2008)

>>>AB's start off well, then melt under the amount of control needed to >>>do compete, or even DO the higher levels of sport. Basically shitters >>>for the most part.

>>>I like AB's, they are cute pets.

need to adjust the training method. the dog needs to learn how to make the action happen how to start the work. Just can not pound the control into the dog. they are handler sensitive.

>>>Boxers internalize their stress too much for my taste, and I have not >>>seen any that I would do anything with other than goof around. I >>>REALLY like their personalities though.

Well if I had to judge the gsd on covey tucker hill I would think that gsd are shit also. Boxers are a little different with more fight drive than prey drive. they track fine they can do obedience and protection fine. no problem with the bite. 

the boxer was bred for bear and boar hunting in germany, then ws a butchers dog. in wwI they lost many of the breeding stock due to thier use in service. philip stockmann was the person in charge of the dogs in southern germany. he was a boxer breeder. he sold some of the dogs to the usa before the war to preserve the breed. he died in a pow camp after the war was over. his was is thought of as the mother of the breed. 

there are not as many boxer bred each year as gsd. the bk is the second largest club after the sv. the problem is they hardly trial outside of the bk. we have lost breeders with the ar cropping and more with the ban on tail docking. many of the top germany mal trainers started with boxers. I think you will find out that they left the bk for more reasons that moving to a mal. internal politics. 

Do not have a problem with a boxer amstaff pit giant airedale mix. a good dog is a good dog. you need to have one that is bred to work. not a couch potatoe show dog. 

the stats are that the gsd is not the top working breed they are the most numerous. the airedale has the best success for the number of puppies born to the number of dogs titled each year. 

there are also differences in the breeding of boxers and gsd. a breeder might keep one puppy and if it has a problem they still keep him in he family. they are more often in the house and not kenneled. a gsd breeder keeps a few dogs until 1 year and sells the rest this is just not done with the boxer. 

the boxer club here is only about 90 people. not all of them work even fewer have titled dogs. many of them are met with get a new dog and not given a fair chance until later. I think many of the owner might be almost as stubborn as the boxer. again just have to find out what motivates the dog and use it to shape the behavior chain the behavior together to make the exersize. training animals is the same whales dogs the principals are the same. it is just some dumb animals can beat on others. If the dog does not do what you want then I guess that you are not a good teacher and can not communicate to the animal that has a small brain. 

there are many roads to rome just have to choose the one you want. Can not discount the breed based on the american conterpart. to me the american boxer is not a boxer. the english dog is closer. we have three major interpritations of the breed. as well as variations with in europe.

mark chase


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A number of ABs that I've seen work seem to have a problem opening their mouths when the start leaping for the bite. Very curious! The start out with a launch/jump and hit the sleeve with closed mouths. 
I've seen a few Presas do this also. 
A lot of the bull breeds also bite shallow until taught otherwise. One bulldog person at club said he thinks it because of their "hanging on" that they need to breathe while on the grip. Most of the bulldogs that I've seen do this have done a lot of hang time on pole work. Makes sense! 
A dog with a deep bite can only breath through it's nose.


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## mark chase (May 7, 2008)

the bite was developed on a boxer for a high set nose which you do not see on an american dog. the nose is pushed back so they can breath while on the bite. I do have a very wide tug that I use and wet leather rags fro the young dogs. It is also up to the judge to look at the jaw and not the position of the nose on the sleeve. I have seen them make comment tha the dog should have a fuller grip when the sleeve can not be any further back in the jaw. then no comment on a gsd when you could see day light in the jaw but the nose was higher on the sleeve. for the nose you do want a nice shape wide nares. some dogs have them pinched this is a problem.
the same with the teeth. I try to find large teeth in the background. I stay away from dogs with small teeth. so of the american dogs only have nubs. again it all depends on what you are looking for. dog you want show dogs, or working lines. west lines or eastern european lines.

the puppy I have now reminds me of the muppets whe he opens his mouth. it seems like the hinge is at the back of the neck. like animal or one of the other puppets. his grip is full and with power. now it s up to me to keep and develop this. as soon as he is done teething I can do more.

mark chase


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

What I have noticed with the bullbreeds is they seem to do better at Sch then the Ring sports. Not saying there aren't any that can't do well in the Ring sports, but I think you have to work them differently then the average Ring trainer trains.

IMO the reason is how the dogs are trained in the two sports. In Sch it's about building the drive, building the dog, etc with a lot of focus on "gently/slowly" adding in the control, while keeping the drives and "power" up the entire time. It's done as a balancing act. In FR the average trainer tends to just put the control on the dog, and expects the dog to maintain the drive on their own. If they don't, they may work on some drive building, but if the dog doesn't bring enough natural drive to counter the control, many move on to another dog. I don't know how many times, at different clubs, I've seen an FR person put enough compulsion/control on a dog that it started to shut down, needed multiple commands to go on the attack, might stay in the bite for 3-4 seconds then out/recall before the command, the grip started to get frontal, etc. And the people training say "perfect, that's what I wanted, he's exactly where he should be, the next session will be perfect". I don't think I've EVER seen that type of training at a Sch club. And I don't know how many Bulldogs could actually handle that type of training.


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## mark chase (May 7, 2008)

there are only a couple of people working in ring with a boxer marki in tx and adrian in chicago. angel vega use to in pr. he made a brevet then the club broke up whatever happens with groups.

in france there is a newer club that is more focused on work that show boxerulti I think they are not recoganised but they train some dogs in ring very few ring III but enough ring I.

I am thinking of playing with ring also. adrian and marki keep prodding me. I think the brevet is an easy transition for the schH dog.

mark chase

http://vortexetsaian.free.fr/vortex/

http://www.boxutil.com


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Biggest problems I see in the bite are fanging themselves or having a hard time breathing. I can't stand how allot of the dogs sound like they are snoring. The fanging depends on how loose the lips are but it grosses me out and I wouldn't want to have to pull my dogs lip off his tooth every training session. The blood all over the suits and sleeve is messy. High maintanence isn't my thing.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> What I have noticed with the bullbreeds is they seem to do better at Sch then the Ring sports. Not saying there aren't any that can't do well in the Ring sports, but I think you have to work them differently then the average Ring trainer trains.
> 
> IMO the reason is how the dogs are trained in the two sports. In Sch it's about building the drive, building the dog, etc with a lot of focus on "gently/slowly" adding in the control, while keeping the drives and "power" up the entire time. It's done as a balancing act. In FR the average trainer tends to just put the control on the dog, and expects the dog to maintain the drive on their own. If they don't, they may work on some drive building, but if the dog doesn't bring enough natural drive to counter the control, many move on to another dog. I don't know how many times, at different clubs, I've seen an FR person put enough compulsion/control on a dog that it started to shut down, needed multiple commands to go on the attack, might stay in the bite for 3-4 seconds then out/recall before the command, the grip started to get frontal, etc. And the people training say "perfect, that's what I wanted, he's exactly where he should be, the next session will be perfect". I don't think I've EVER seen that type of training at a Sch club. And I don't know how many Bulldogs could actually handle that type of training.


I agree, each dog must be work individually ccording to their strengths and weaknesses. A Mal is a busrt of energy with lots of stamina. Ring sport was created to show off their athletic abilities. A good trainer should adjust his training methodology to bring out the best in the dog regardless of the breed. Some dogs are handler sensitive, I have seen GSD and Mals that coward to normal correction. Sometimes these type dogs need to be babied more and franly most handlers and trainer prefer not to take on the challenge.

It is my opinion that unlike most herders, AB's and boxers and other breeds with short muzzles like rotties need lots of exercise to build up their stamina. You cannot leave them in the kennel all week and expect for them to fly through a complete intense sport routine like ring and not be severely winded.

I have a rottie and to get him at the top of his game I have to let him run 2-3 miles a day during the week and 4-6 miles a day on the weekend. Once he has gotten in shape he can run through agility several times. keep in mind he is only 85 lbs and 24" tall. It is a lot of work not just for the dog but the handler. malinois do not require that much intense training to bring up their stamina...they re a natural ball of energy.

Howver, I like the callenge of the so-called off breeds. Eventhough they may not place or win, getting a title is an accomplishment that few come to achieve.

I think that if any bully breed were to excel at ring it would be APT. A properly bred APT tha is tall, lean and muscular will go all day. i have seen a few well trained pitts in action and I am truly impressed with their athleticism. It is just someting about terriers and their tenacity to be dtermined to get the job done.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mari Steward said:


> I agree, each dog must be work individually ccording to their strengths and weaknesses. A Mal is a busrt of energy with lots of stamina. Ring sport was created to show off their athletic abilities. A good trainer should adjust his training methodology to bring out the best in the dog regardless of the breed. Some dogs are handler sensitive, I have seen GSD and Mals that coward to normal correction. Sometimes these type dogs need to be babied more and franly most handlers and trainer prefer not to take on the challenge.
> 
> It is my opinion that unlike most herders, AB's and boxers and other breeds with short muzzles like rotties need lots of exercise to build up their stamina. You cannot leave them in the kennel all week and expect for them to fly through a complete intense sport routine like ring and not be severely winded.
> 
> ...


That may be your cup of tea I my first Schutzhund dog was a Rott and I titled him to SCH III I worked my ass off to make this dog presentable a couple of high in protection and high in trial trophies. NEVER AGHIN will I bring a monster truck to a Formula I race and try to compete. ](*,)


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## Rolf Harris (Jul 3, 2008)

I agree with many of the comments here about Boxers but the reasons for most of their problems is the way in which they are bred, for the most part they are bred for the show and pet homes with little or few being specifically bred for work. The boxer is a modern dog only just over 100 years old, the original Boxer was a superb working animal, the early breeders had to put it through some tough trials in order for it to be registerd as a working breed in its home country of Germany and against much resistance as the Germans already had fine working dogs with high standards but the boxer passed these working tests with flying colors .
But due to both world wars most of the best animals and best breeders where lost and the Boxer took a different direction, the pet/show world. 
Most of the best dogs where sent to America and after the war Frieduerun Stockmann (mother of the breed) was invited to America to judge Boxers and couldnt find anything that looked like a german boxer should and picked a 4 month old pup as best in show, he went on to be the best living boxer in american history..a show dog! after she wrote of him ,that he was too fine in build and wouldnt have done well back in germany.

Most modern breeders have lost sight of the origins of this dog and breed in many physical faults due to the demands of the over exagerations required in show dogs, such as short noses,small teeth,eccess flews along with incorrect temperments.The biggest problem by far has to be the short muzzles and small trachea, which would aplly to most bully breeds, i dont think enough attention is given to these problems this causes most of the breathing and stamina problems. The original boxer head was desigined with a much longer powerfull muzzle with a much closer bite than the modern dog. the boxer head was disigned specifically for biting and gripping based on crossing a german bulldog with an english bulldog , the early dogs could hang on to a one ton raging bull, why do they have problems now hanging on to a man in a bite sleeve? 
But saying all this there are many examples of boxers without any working lines throughout the world that achieve high working titles how many other breeds can say this? even the working Malinois is a different one from the show dog.
The best examples of working boxers are from Europe where many achieve sch111 titles, many European countries still insist that show champions have to have a working title and the working side of the boxer is kept alive.


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## Rolf Harris (Jul 3, 2008)

I agree with many of the comments here about Boxers but the reasons for most of their problems is the way in which they are bred, for the most part they are bred for the show and pet homes with little or few being specifically bred for work. The boxer is a modern dog only just over 100 years old, the original Boxer was a superb working animal, the early breeders had to put it through some pretty tough working trials in order for it to be registerd as a working breed in its home country of Germany and against much resistance too as the Germans already had fine working dogs with high standards but the boxer passed these working tests with flying colors and was incuded in the working group.
But due to both world wars most of the best animals and best original breeders where lost and the Boxer took a different direction......the pet/show world!
Most of the best dogs where sent to America and after the war Frieduerun Stockmann (mother of the breed) was invited to America to judge Boxers and couldnt find anything that looked like a german boxer should and picked a 4 month old pup as best in show, he went on to be the best living boxer in american history..a show dog! after she wrote of him ,that he was too fine in build and would not have done well back in germany; if she where alive today i wonder what she would make of the modern Boxer ?
IMO This is where the division took place and in most peoples minds today the Boxer is a goofey pet dog with a purely show bred background, not many Boxer owners or breeders know of its origins or capabililties and maybe due to adverse publicity regarding many bull breeds this isnt so bad for the Boxer, however it does nothing for his reputation as a working dog.

Most modern breeders have lost sight of the origins of this dog and breed in many physical faults due to the demands of the over exagerations required in show dogs, such as short noses,small teeth,eccess flews along with incorrect temperments for working .The biggest problem by far has to be the short muzzles, pinched noses and small trachea, which would apply to most bully breeds, i dont think enough attention is given to these problems which causes most of the breathing and stamina problems.
The original boxer head was desigined with a longer more powerfull muzzle with bigger teeth and a much closer bite than the modern dog, the boxer head was disigned specifically for biting and gripping perfect for doing bite work these dogs where bred from crossing the german bulldog with the english bulldog , both breeds with proven stamina ,tenacity, drive and biting ability,these early dogs could take down a one ton raging bull, so why do modern boxers have problems now hanging on to a man in a bite sleeve? 

But saying all this there are many examples of boxers from show stock without any working lines throughout the world that achieve working titles, how many other breeds can say this? even the working Malinois is a different one from the Malinois we see in the show ring both in character and type.
The best examples of working boxers are from Europe where many achieve sch111 titles, many European countries still insist that show champions have to have a working title and the working character of the boxer is kept alive!


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