# Arguements against bite training



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I saw this on Leerburg and thought it was an interesting topic. As far as putting it in the right place............???


Mod Edit: Here's the link to "Real Life Accidents" thread, rather than quoting a post from elsewhere w/o permission. Maybe it's OK, but maybe it isn't. 
Original Thread Click Here

This is a lot more real than I care to deal with. I have had a lot of experience with PETA people and the way that they go about getting thier aganda out.

I really have not had enough incedents during training over the last however many years to take notice. Spastic puppies on the tug account for all but one of my injuries as far as a bite is concerned. I have hurt my back catching really fast dogs, my knees from all the torqing that occurs from the bungee work, and the occasional dog that hits the kneecap area on entry.

I don't know too many people that have been hurt from a bite. How about everyone else?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is a lot more real than I care to deal with. I have had a lot of experience with PETA people and the way that they go about getting thier aganda out.


Not sure I understood this? I'm not a PETA person, just not sure I understood what you were saying here.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Jeff Oehlsen said:
> 
> 
> > This is a lot more real than I care to deal with. I have had a lot of experience with PETA people and the way that they go about getting thier aganda out.
> ...


I wasn't clear on this either. Maybe that the O.P. might inadvertantly draw replies that could fuel the PETA types?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is a huge anti-dog populace out there, and they are associated with PETA. I tried to find the dang thing on the internet, but failed.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is a huge anti-dog populace out there, and they are associated with PETA. I tried to find the dang thing on the internet, but failed.


I don't doubt that, I was just wondering why you'd dropped the reference. I know these kinds of people, Jeff, they will not show up at your house. (edited to say they will if there is a couch they can crash on...)

Well, ALF will, but they're too busy with the mink farms.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

People just dont get the fact that teaching a dog to bite, is as much about teaching them when they CAN'T bite. ](*,) 
I've been to Den trials with my terriers when the PETA folks protested cause the caged rats were being stressed by the barking dogs. :roll: 
PETA=People Eating Tasty Animals.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

The guy I train with has a 4 dog trailer which is very well ventilated with cool water for his dogs in each compartment... he went for a 2 hour lunch with the trailer parked in the shade, got back out to a hysterical woman and her hubby freaking out because this cruel man had his dogs in a trailer on a warm day. She was yelling about how she was with the sheriff's office n she was calling the cops blablabla. Turns out she was just a dispatcher n coulda gotten in alotta trouble for her lil act there. She literally went around the trailer pulling the outer doors open n lifting up the equipment storage lid. She called the cops, my trainer called a guy in the K9 unit, they sent a car down n basically told the lady that they knew the trainer n the dogs are fine n basically, get lost.

It's nice n all that people are concerned about the animals... but some people needa stop freaking out about things like working dogs being in a clearly well ventilated trailer for a few hours... these dogs are kennel dogs, it's not like they're not used to the heat.

I know someone who believes dogs shouldn't be worked unless they have a job, but working a dog for sport is cruel and just for human amusement. She entirely refused to believe that the dogs enjoy their work n that there are dogs in the world who's drive is so high that running around a fenced in back yard all day n playing fetch a few times a day isn't gonna cut it for exercise....

Point being... people just don't understand, n once they get roped into a certain belief with peer pressure from other like-minded morons, you're never gonna change their minds.

Dogs don't needa be taught how to bite, they already know how to bite... training teaches em a) to do it better and b) when not to do it, but they will never understand because their precious lil fluffy would never bite someone so it's beyond their scope of thought to imagine that there is a dog out there who just enjoys to bite, n does so as soon as there's teeth with which to bite.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You guys want to see one persons' smear campaign in action? Go to:
www.stoplynching.com

I don't know where this person came up with her stuff, but I do know she is full of it. :roll:


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

It's funny, this gal claims to have the video, yet doesn't put it on the website?
Anyone can take a still of a correction from a video, turn around, and say you were "hanging" the dog.
Here's a quote from the site about how "cruel" training is:


> Then Nitro makes a mistake, jumping toward the non-aggressive man. Johannes Grewe, a police service dog trainer, pulls hard on a blue rope tied to a pinch collar around Nitro's neck. The animal squeals and careens in a heap on the patchy grass.


Now, I don't know about you, but I think a correction on a prong for uncalled-for aggression isn't "cruel"!
Here's an interesting article from the same anti-police/protection dog type people:
http://www.geocities.com/ericsquire/articles/dogs/le060127.htm
Now, tell me how the dog did anything wrong?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> Now, tell me how the dog did anything wrong?


Well...just speculation here. The dog didn't out, correct? I mean, according to the guy's story, they had to break off the bite with a nightstick.

Jeff, consider this thread officially hijacked. Sorry man.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

The 2nd link is just a story from a CRIMINAL. His friend sped off: they were obviously doing teh wrong thing. He says they had to pry the dog off...do we know that to be true? No. The LEO's side of the story is not printed there.

Further, the man is out for money. Can't get a job b/c of a dog bite? How so? I don't know of any employers who would say, "Oh no..you can't work for me with that disfiguring scar under your PANTS all day long! No sireee bob." Could it maybe JUST be that he can't get a decent job b/c he's a convicted criminal????

As for the first lady: she's full of it. Very easy to make things look the way she wants them to look. 

And I understand Jeff's comment about PETA. It does some oddball stuff to futher it's disgusting agendas. They are for the eradication of companion animals and animals at work, and in that vein do not support no-kill animal shelters, support bans on pit bulls (including having them euthanized at intake at shelters nationwide), and have killed tens of thousands of animals themselves after taking them in the name of "rescue." Very scary organization.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> The 2nd link is just a story from a CRIMINAL. His friend sped off: they were obviously doing teh wrong thing. He says they had to pry the dog off...do we know that to be true? No. The LEO's side of the story is not printed there.
> 
> Further, the man is out for money. Can't get a job b/c of a dog bite? How so? I don't know of any employers who would say, "Oh no..you can't work for me with that disfiguring scar under your PANTS all day long! No sireee bob." Could it maybe JUST be that he can't get a decent job b/c he's a convicted criminal????
> 
> ...


I think I qualified my post enough...I'm just saying that, according to the story presented, my understanding is that the dog erred when it did not release. That's all. I recognize the context for the story as it is. I was just curious and responded to Sarah's post. I took it as a situational anecdote as it was because I'm curious to hear one of our LEOs comment on whether that was a dog error (i.e., not releasing off of a bite). It's a seperate issue as to whether the dog was showing good judgement.  It's the web, people present bias all the time.

Here's the PETA FAQ. They support companion animals but prefer those animals come from shelters, they educate people about pet store dogs, they support euthanasia shelters, they support spaying and neutering for pet owners, they advocate against tying out dogs, they are against cat declawing...these are not lunatic liberal positions, whether you agree with these points or not (I happen to agree with all these points). They also have some viewpoints some of you might consider more extreme, like veganism, anti-fur demonstrations, and no caged birds, but hey...I hate parakeets and seeing rich old women get some red water spashed on their brand new ermine jacket makes me extremely happy on a lot of levels (even though I know this is wrong).

My guess is they are like every other extreme left or right wing group in our great country, in that there are factions within their organization who will jump the thin line between freedom of expression to freedom to do as they please. But hey, thank goodness we live in a country that can tolerate PETA and freerepublic.com. Both places bug the hell out of me, and both places harbor facist nuts with different uniforms on. Whether your position is "animals should not be abused" or "the federal government is too involved in peoples' lives" you will get extremes like ALF as well as Timothy McVey. These are the risks we have as a democracy, and why (IMO) it's crucial to understand as many points of discussion as possible, whether you agree or not. That's why I love open forums like this.

I'm not a PETA apologist, I'm just trying to figure out (back to Jeff's original post! ;-))why there would be a concern about voicing opinion on accidental bites by a dog enthusiast community for fear they'd be taken out of context or that there would be some kind of targeting from the fringe groups. I guess that's a risk, but any of you sharing your real names have been at risk all along for that stuff. I would be a lot more worried about dog enthusiasts that surf these forums looking for fights that can escalate to something else, but that's why I got a working GSD for my house. :lol: 

I'm kidding. But I don't think a one-off discussion about accidental bites will change and/or strengthen the positions of some of the nitwits out there, including the www.stoplynching.com person. That's what I was initially trying to understand from Jeff before his poor thread got yanked in many different directions. I would have shut up after that, because I dont' know anyone who's taken a bite as he's asking the question.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

OK, granted I'm a dumb blond, so I appologize in advance if this is not the kind of thing you were looking for Jeff:

1. Had an agitator accidently get bitten real bad in the face. He required stiches. We took him to a small hospital emergency room & we told the hospital he got bitten breaking up a dog fight between 2 of his dogs. We never said a word about schutzhund or anything.

2. A guy opended up my drivers door (Ithink he was trying to d o a carjacking), Zorba rached accross me & bit the $hit out of him. I drove off & never heard a word about it. I think I was luicky, because he could have gotten my plate number & made some bs claim. It would have been my word against his.

Jeff, if you are looking for something other than this, or something other than the wierd lady who's website I posted, could you please have some respect for us mentally challenged blonds, & dumb down your question!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

QUOTE from Woody:

They support companion animals but prefer those animals come from shelters, they educate people about pet store dogs, they support euthanasia shelters, they support spaying and neutering for pet owners, they advocate against tying out dogs, they are against cat declawing...these are not lunatic liberal positions, whether you agree with these points or not (I happen to agree with all these points). END

I happen to agree with these positions too. And I accept that slaughter animals will always be bred and raised for food, but I will never accept that inhumane conditions and slaughter, and a life of misery, terror, pain, even agony, is acceptable just because they are born to be eaten.

What I don't agree with are terrorism tactics (which I do realize are the products of an extremist faction), the idea that dogs trained for SchH, sled-pulling, and other sports are abused (that is, that there is abuse inherent in the training and the actual competitions), and also some beliefs that in my own opinion may be generated by a skewed view of animals as furry humans (oversimplified, I know).

So while I consider myself an activist for the humane treatment of companion, farm, service, wild, and slaughter animals, I am careful which orgs I support and work for.

I want to add one other point that it took me a while to really "get." No-kill shelters can be a source of misery, IMO. Now that I know about shelter-crazed dogs, I have a slightly different view of no-kill shelters. Many mean "no-kill except for animals that canNOT be placed," but not all of them do......... and that's a very gray area for me.

And now I have contributed to hijacking Jeff's thread, and I apologize.

QUOTE:

I really have not had enough incedents during training over the last however many years to take notice. Spastic puppies on the tug account for all but one of my injuries as far as a bite is concerned. I have hurt my back catching really fast dogs, my knees from all the torqing that occurs from the bungee work, and the occasional dog that hits the kneecap area on entry. 

I don't know too many people that have been hurt from a bite. How about everyone else? END QUOTE (excerpt from Jeff's O.P.)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

PETA has a lot more to say than just that they prefer people to get animals from shelters. I just went to the Peta website, and looked at Companion Animal FAQ's. Peta is against all dog breeders because "there is no such thing as "responsible" breeding". That's a really ridiculous statement on PETAs' part. :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK. I have been bitten one time when I was 16 on a horrendously stupid catch with a hidden sleeve. I also for what ever reason pushed the sleeve higher on my arm. DUMB, and then I catght the dog, basically with my half exposed wrist. I had two holes in me from the canine teeth. Other than that, it is just puppies masacreing my hands. I hear about crazy stuff like getting bitten in the face, and other than 1 time one of our sister clubs decoy slipped and fell and got it, I don't see it happening.

As far as getting bitten in the face, what the heck happened there? Let me guess..........B&H?????


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Standard inititiation for young helper. Just kidding. He was just learning to be an agitator. Youngish dog was tied out on pole, he did a pass, dog got the sleeve. For some reason, he reached down & tried to get the sleeve from the dog! Had his face where it didn't belong & got bit. Had to get stiches because his lip got sliced by the dogs' canine tooth. He was more embarassed than hurt.

I got bit on the training field by someone else's dog. He asked me to help him with his recall. You know, when you hold the dog, the owner goes out & calls the dog to rev him up, then you release. With this dog, the owner handed him to me, turned to walk away (wasn't more than 6 feet from me), when the dog jumped on me, bit me on the chin (punctured me pretty damn good), I put my hands up & turned & called "get your dog", so he didn't get another bite on my face, just arms. Since they were just puntures I let them bleed & then just bandaged them. No need to go to the hospital. I do still have the scar on my forearm & chin. No big deal.

The guy had bought this dog with a Sch1 on him from some guy who was selling all his dogs due to illness. This dog turned out to be pretty unstable. I wasn't the only one who got bit by him. He would be acting just fine & then bite. So, the owner stopped using him for schutzhund.


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

> The 2nd link is just a story from a CRIMINAL. His friend sped off: they were obviously doing teh wrong thing. He says they had to pry the dog off...do we know that to be true? No. The LEO's side of the story is not printed there.


That's exactly what I was thinking! Not only can you not trust the guy who says "I was 17... I was scared!", but I hear the title "Savaged" and that immediately puts people in a bad frame of mind. 


> The policeman was screaming at the dog to pull off, but it wouldn't. Then he rammed his baton into its jaws and twisted its head off my leg.


For all those LEOs, is "ramming" your dog with a baton going to make it out? :lol: 
Also, listen to the inconsistent statements in these two quotes, both from the same article from the same victim:










> "I heard the van door open and the dog pounding towards me. I just froze and held my hands up - then it hit me."


Now, if he was trying to make the point that the dog was unfairly sent on him, wouldn't he want to keep repeating how he "froze and held up his hands"?


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

I just got this e-mailed to me from some weird e-mail address:
"You think Police K-9 Training is all fun and games, huh? Watch this and then reasess your opinions on the cruelty of these pigs!
http://www.thewbalchannel.com/video/2218157/index.html"

I already saw some of the video, but my resolution is so bad and my i-net speed is so slow I couldn't watch more than like, 2 seconds of it.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I can't watch it at all, it just won't play, I have everything that should let it play, popup blockers disbaled... :-k :-k :-k


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> I just got this e-mailed to me from some weird e-mail address:
> "You think Police K-9 Training is all fun and games, huh? Watch this and then reasess your opinions on the cruelty of these pigs!
> http://www.thewbalchannel.com/video/2218157/index.html"
> 
> I already saw some of the video, but my resolution is so bad and my i-net speed is so slow I couldn't watch more than like, 2 seconds of it.


What was the email address?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I dunno if this is the same video but I assume it is, Baltimore PD handler getting pissed at his Malinois...

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=baltimore_dog&Player=wm&speed=_med

I viewed this one without a problem, in case anyone else has the same viewing issue I had.

I don't agree with that the officer did, but I've seen worse. Is he trying to alpha roll the dog or something??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I can't seem to be able to view the one Woody posted. 
I've seen the one Mike is talking about. 
Although, on the surface, it looks like crap training, I don't have the full story, or LEO K9 training and expierience to make an opinion. 
Possibly some of the LEO's here could give more insight if they see anything unusual.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I can't seem to be able to view the one Woody posted.
> I've seen the one Mike is talking about.
> Although, on the surface, it looks like crap training, I don't have the full story, or LEO K9 training and expierience to make an opinion.
> Possibly some of the LEO's here could give more insight if they see anything unusual.


I think Sarah originally posted it, my guess is it's the same video that you and Mike (and me) have seen. I don't have the info or experience to comment as well, I would just like to know if someone's flaming people's email accounts they are accessing via this site. I didn't get anything.

Edited to say, FWIW, and Mike can probably either confirm this or disagree...it's probably best never to put a link to an email address you care about in any open internet forum. But I'm still curious to know if someone's pinging people here, and I would LOVE to have that email address. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'd love to watch it, I'm guessing our departments filters are prohibiting me from doing so. This whole thread has me a bit confused. I'm not sure if we are talking about a bad bite (not a legal one) or a bad handler or training practices. All three situations can carry thier own problems as you can imagine. In fact, I'm not even sure if the discussion started out talking about Law enforcement dogs to begin with. I guess I need to go back and see I can follow this thread a little closer. I'm having a senior moment I reckon.

DFrost


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

David Frost said:


> This whole thread has me a bit confused.


It basically started out with Jeff saying he was a new and proud PETA member and wanted to shoot some exploitative video of some Schutzhund routines so Connie said that she was all for both hard grip dogs as well as no-kill shelters and then Bob said he wanted to be an LEO and Mike ditto'd that and Susan talked about her hazing rituals for new handlers and how she bit a dog on the head once and then Stacia wanted to do a new ring event where she'd bail off of a moped and run away from a dog that Jeff would sic on her. While he was filming it for PETA. Meanwhile a Nigerian prince has been emailing Sarah with promises of big money in return for some banking account info of hers.

It makes sense, just read it out loud 20 or 30 times.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> David Frost said:
> 
> 
> > This whole thread has me a bit confused.
> ...


Yeah....... what's wrong with you, David? Can't you read?


ROTFLOL :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> David Frost said:
> 
> 
> > This whole thread has me a bit confused.
> ...


 :lol: @ Woody! :^o [-X 
I think I need an asprin after reading that! :lol: :wink:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> :lol: @ Woody! :^o [-X
> I think I need an asprin after reading that! :lol: :wink:


My work is done here.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

That was awesome :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > :lol: @ Woody! :^o [-X
> ...


I'm so glad I checked in this morning :wink: This end of thread made my day!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Not only am I confused, but now my head hurts.

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

*WHAT?????  *


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

ROFL :lol:


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

You're wrong Woody...just wrong :roll: . Though Jeff and I aren't letting PETA scum have our video mwa ha ha...we're selling it on the internet to raise money under the false pretenses of eraddicating moped-people-chasing-dogs so we can buy condos in Rio.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> You're wrong Woody...just wrong :roll: . Though Jeff and I aren't letting PETA scum have our video mwa ha ha...we're selling it on the internet to raise money under the false pretenses of eraddicating moped-people-chasing-dogs so we can buy condos in Rio.


That's exactly what I suspected.


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