# to neuter or not? (continued)



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Hi there,
> Yes I do have a spayed dog, and if i could i would reverse it.
> she has border line Thyroid, so she is treated for that, had the suspicion for a couple years, but it took me a while to find a Vet that was seeing the symptoms like i did, as well as referring to another nice book about only Thyroid and talking to Dr Dodds, I do believe it is a result from the spay.
> I know siblings and parents etc, other related half sisters/brothers and none has Thyroid.
> ...





Sara Waters said:


> It is against the law in your country because that is the philosophy of your culture with regards to dogs. Do you geld or castrate your male horses, cattle and sheep? and cats? If it applies to one animal surely then to all?
> 
> Here vets think differently and I am glad for the freedom of choice to castrate ones animals depending on individual needs, that is our culture.
> 
> ...






Kat Hunsecker said:


> As it states, i translate... s if ti is not 100% correctly worded.sorry!
> 
> Prohibited is the complete or partially amputating of bodyparts or partially or fully removal of organs or tissues of vertebrates.
> 
> ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Prohibited is the complete or partially amputating of bodyparts or partially or fully removal of organs or tissues of vertebrates.

And yes we do geld stallions, the others not sooo much. "_


I'm sorry I missed what country this is. Is it Switzerland?

I'm curious about why stallions are not included under the law that prohibits surgically neutering dogs and other vertebrates.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Prohibited is the complete or partially amputating of bodyparts or partially or fully removal of organs or tissues of vertebrates._
> 
> _And yes we do geld stallions, the others not sooo much. "_
> 
> ...


That is what I was thinking. I was also asking if the domestic house cat was included.

Kat there probably has been some of what I meant lost in translation. I live in Australia and here wild dogs are an very serious problem. I live on the edge of a vast area of rangeland and inland desert, some properties are millions of hectares in size and the sheep range over these areas. The domestic dogs have interbred with dingoes and number in their many many thousands perhaps millions across the continent.

The government builds thousands of miles of dog proof fencing, employs full time doggers to maintain and build the fences, and trap, bait and shoot these dogs. It is not really the case of a few sheep being mauled, we are talking thousands. The whole problem is a major economic threat to agriculture. If you are travelling with dogs there are many areas where if you let your dogs out off leash they are likely to take a bait, such is the scale of the problem.

The wild dogs can be and are attracted on to a property by the scent of bitches on heat. They are bold, aggressive and strong and most sheepdogs are no match for them and are likely to be killed. If attracted in one then has to shoot or bait them. I obviously dont like baiting my property because of my own dogs.

My dogs dont roam free when I am not there to supervise them because of snakes, livestock etc. but I also dont have kennels, my dogs remain together in the house yard and have the run of the house through a dog door. I also sometimes have to spend long days away from home so if wild dogs were attracted in by a bitch on heat I would be very uneasy when I was away.

Not having a bitch on heat and I have 4 of them, greatly reduces the chances of my dogs crossing paths with them.

Really if I thought that my dogs were put at risk by castrating them I would think twice. However as we have discussed I dont believe that to be the case. There is always a risk of surgery, however all my dogs have recovered very quickly and I just would rather not put my dogs at added risk of being killed by wild dogs. 

I guess you have to live where I do to understand what I am talking about. I think it is a very different environment from where you live.

Not sure about long term risk of anathesia. I myself have had a number of major anathesias and I dont feel any the worse for wear. Most of my dogs will have several anathesias over their lifetime for having grass seeds extracted from within their bodies which is a yearly hazard out here, and other injuries from working sheep in very rough country.

The dog I nearly lost to pyometra was probably the sickest dog I have ever had, she took quite a long time to recover from that experience.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I guess you have to live where I do to understand what I am talking about. I think it is a very different environment from where you live.


It sounds like you have a very specific, and very unusual set of circumstances that would not apply to the vast number of people who own dogs; and your reasons for wanting to alter them while sound, would not be applicable to most... Not that I don't think most pet owners shouldn't alter their pets, but your vehement defense for it come from a very different place than most ever experience... I would absolutely alter in your situation as well.... 

Now if we are going to bring horses into the discussion, then lets use them. If you alter a colt prior to maturity, it will _most likely_ never develop the traits of an adult male, intact horse. From bone and musculature which can be easily observed, to presence which is harder to define. They are specifically gelded to force them to remain less mature physically and even a bit mentally. It doesn't make them stupid or to loose the ability to work... That would be counter productive... #-o

It does not guarantee a calm, biddable horse either, you can have punk geldings as easily as chill stallions. This is more about innate character, training and handling. Gelding early may temper it a bit, but high strung lines will throw high strung gelding as often as stallions or mares. It will usually temper the desire to breed, but geldings allowed to get away with it can also be punks around an in-season mare too. This is the biggest reason I see to geld. Unlike dogs, mares come in-season every 20-23 days from spring through fall until they are bred or winter with its shorter days. That's a lot of distraction for a stud colt when he is young and still learning what is going on, what the rules are for behavior and attention if you have mares on the property, and worse if you have many; a constant estrus fest! It is not like a bitch that comes in once or twice a year... Since mares are almost never spayed, they can all be bred.

But when one looks to horses as an example, I think it is silly not to say that altering does NOT affect the horse physically. It is very clear the difference in bone and muscle tone from a gelding to a stud.:?: To argue that it does not change anything...? Geld late and you will end up with a stud that can't breed. Everything else stays pretty much the same from desire to breed to structure, but you can loose a bit of muscle tone. 

We had six Arab studs on our ranch, and all were well behaved normal horses. They were regularly pastured together and could be handled by anyone. It was just expected that they be that way and that was how they were trained. No magic. As it is a breeding facility, most mares are bred early and seasons are few around there. We had about 15 breeding mares, 10 or so surrogate mares (for double breeding or showing mares), six studs and a handful of colts/geldings under the age of two.

However, still using horses, I don't think altering a dog is going to make them get sick and die either. That would be silly. If given an informed and confidant handler, a level headed well trained animal and an ability to keep them from breeding inadvertently (and discounting millions of wild dogs in your back yard) then I see no reason to neuter. Change any of that, and then it is safer to neuter. All my opinion only


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Speaking of horses, i was looking at the stats on winning horses for 2012 and of about 305 horses ranked 79 were geldings. So nearly a third of the horses running throughbred races are castrated. Appearently gelding horses is not having all that much affect on their ability to win against intact mares or stallions. And horse racing is really, really big money compared to dogs.
And in preformance events in dogdom, i'd say better then half of all dogs entered in agility or obedience that i have laid eyes on are altered. And i go to a lot of agility and obedience events as a club member in my area of central florida. On the flip side all dogs in conformation and protection sports are intact.

We haven't got packs of wild dogs running the range, but we do now have coyotes.
Your more likely to encounter a loose pit bull here than a wild dingo. Pounds is slammed full of pits all waiting to die because they are bred way too often by idiots. Who could care less what becomes of their animals.

As for having our own organs removed? I've finally got a Dr, to agree that i need my uterus removed. Because the damn thing is nothing but problems and i do not want to breed and add to the human populations. (I'm a mean bitch) 
I think by and large this is a cultural issues and not so much a serious health issue. My fixed dogs have been very healthy, living to 14, 13, 10 even 16 years old. And only one ever had any sort of problem.
And that is my current elder dog of 10 years. 
But it has been a very interesting thread. I hope that of all this info something positive is coming out of it.
Thanks
Karen


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

""Speaking of horses, i was looking at the stats on winning horses for 2012 and of about 305 horses ranked 79 were geldings. So nearly a third of the horses running throughbred races are castrated. Appearently gelding horses is not having all that much affect on their ability to win against intact mares or stallions. And horse racing is really, really big money compared to dogs.""

Is this horses in the U.S. or WW? I suspect in the U.S..?
Back to the topic, I think I may have posted this link before, problem is I can't remember what I ate last night. So if redundant mea culpa.....:-k
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Yes it has been interesting discussion. Look I realise that obviously castrating is going to have effects on an animal, but in my experience it has not always been negative. 

I think if you can handle an intact animal and think it a more natural way then I am fine with that but I just think that in many situations, castration is a very real alternative and dogs are not automatically doomed to health problems, behavioural problems and mental problems in old age because of it.

The problem in this country with wild dogs and feral cats stems from many humans being unable to deal with uncastrated animals which has left a devastating stamp on this huge and fragile country. Kat indeed comes from a different country and culture.

My mother had an ovahysterectomy at age 34 for medical reasons and now in her eighties has never suffered any ill effects, never had any hormone replacements and still doesnt have grey hair and has great skin( most likely genetic) and most definitely has all her marbles and still handles dogs and is physically very fit for her age.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Steve Estrada said:


> ""Speaking of horses, i was looking at the stats on winning horses for 2012 and of about 305 horses ranked 79 were geldings. So nearly a third of the horses running throughbred races are castrated. Appearently gelding horses is not having all that much affect on their ability to win against intact mares or stallions. And horse racing is really, really big money compared to dogs.""
> 
> Is this horses in the U.S. or WW? I suspect in the U.S..?
> Back to the topic, I think I may have posted this link before, problem is I can't remember what I ate last night. So if redundant mea culpa.....:-k
> http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


 
It would apply to horses in Aus I think too.

Thanks for the article. It seems to be a fair and balanced review of the research available. I castrate my males and females once they have reached maturity and keep them lean and they are not among the listed breeds of being high risk of certain conditions, so am happy with the decision. For others there would be different decisions of course

Interesting that there were not enough geriatric entire female dogs to complete the study on cognitive abilities? Certainly all my old females (15-17) have been in full control of all their mental faculties.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> Thanks for the article. It seems to be a fair and balanced review of the research available.


I think so too. 

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f25/castration-vs-sterilisation-25495/#post365933


Yes, Steve, I think you and I have both posted it more than once. :-D


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

i neutered my male before I had any idea I was going to do anything other than have him as an active pet and while it may not have been the best decision, there is no undoing it now. I adore him, but he was the pet quality pup in the litter, so there seemed no compelling reason at the time to keep him intact.

It was not an easy decision for me to spay my bitch, but in the end, I decided it was in her best interest and mine to go ahead with it.

She is not breeding quality. She is a nice, but not exceptionable bitch, in my opinion. She has a very minor, yet still inheritable genetic defect, so in my mind, she should not be bred. Plus there is my own lack of interest in breeding, raising puppies and worst of all, having to find suitable homes for Dutch Shepherd puppies.

From a quality of life point of view, I think I made a good choice. While I realize that it is major surgery, my dog recovered quickly. My human friend's 'spay' surgery resulted in two months off work to recover. My DS was pestering me to throw her ball for her two days following the surgery. Keeping her quiet for the required time period was the hardest part of the recovery.

My dogs run loose in my house. They are never crated at home. Never. But even my neutered male will respond to a bitch in heat, and unless I want him tying with her day after day, they both need to be crated when she is in heat. Seems grossly unfair to force both dogs into lockdown and completely alter their carefree and relaxed lifestyle for two or three weeks, just because I want an intact bitch. No lounging about the house barking at cats in the yard and chasing off burglars while I work, no sleeping on the bed or hanging out on the couch. No long walks together in the morning chasing balls in the park. No playing together. Maybe others don't manage their dogs the way I do, so none of this is a problem, but for me, I don't think my dogs or I would be better off for having to deal with regular heat cycles.

And then the statistics about pyo... seems a significant enough risk for a bitch that I have no intention of breeding, combined with my personal experience of a friend's young dog dying during surgery for it. Too close to home not to affect me. 

I still have wistful maybe she would have made awesome puppies moments, but aside from that, why wouldn't I spay?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For a very long time John Henry (race horse) was the biggest money winner of all times. It all came after he was gelded and he was said to be almost uncrontrollably aggressive befoer that and sold a few times because of it.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> From a quality of life point of view, I think I made a good choice.
> My dogs run loose in my house. They are never crated at home. Never. But even my neutered male will respond to a bitch in heat, and unless I want him tying with her day after day, they both need to be crated when she is in heat. Seems grossly unfair to force both dogs into lockdown and completely alter their carefree and relaxed lifestyle for two or three weeks, just because I want an intact bitch. No lounging about the house barking at cats in the yard and chasing off burglars while I work, no sleeping on the bed or hanging out on the couch. No long walks together in the morning chasing balls in the park. No playing together. Maybe others don't manage their dogs the way I do, so none of this is a problem, but for me, I don't think my dogs or I would be better off for having to deal with regular heat cycles.
> 
> And then the statistics about pyo... seems a significant enough risk for a bitch that I have no intention of breeding, combined with my personal experience of a friend's young dog dying during surgery for it. Too close to home not to affect me.
> ...


 
Wild dogs aside, the quality of life is also what I like for me and my dogs. I have 4 bitches and 2 dogs and we also have a very carefree and relaxed lifestyle in that regards. I think that having to manage them all as entire dogs would impact on us all. I am just not setup to manage them that way. Having come within in a whisker of losing a dog to pyo, it also makes me nervous. I also have a friend who lost her breeding bitch to pyo, they couldnt control the infection even after surgery and euthanaised her.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Prohibited is the complete or partially amputating of bodyparts or partially or fully removal of organs or tissues of vertebrates._
> 
> _And yes we do geld stallions, the others not sooo much. "_
> 
> ...


that'll be Germany...
and there are some exceptions of course, some hunting dogs are permitted to get cropped tails, and of course if it is beneficial (don't nail me on the judical wording) for future use of the animal and protection of it and others...
which i would have to check with a Vet, but I would have to think this is where the geldings fall, since stallions all over are a different issue, then dogs...

Stallions/Geldings deveope differntly then dogs,I do believe someone pointed this out allready.

Germany has tons of intact dogs, and not that big of an issue with it-as it appeares to be in the US...
which might join in in the questions why is this so different from country to country?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> that'll be Germany...


Germany has a law against surgical neutering? I had read that Norway did. 

Anyone have a link?

I tried Googling these words (with Germany in quotes) and got nothing, but I'm sure if I knew any German I'd do a whole lot better.  

Quote (Kat): _"Prohibited is the complete or partially amputating of bodyparts or partially or fully removal of organs or tissues of vertebrates."_

I'm just curious about the "vertebrates but not horses" part and how that could be worded.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Jessica Kromer said:


> It sounds like you have a very specific, and very unusual set of circumstances that would not apply to the vast number of people who own dogs; and your reasons for wanting to alter them while sound, would not be applicable to most... Not that I don't think most pet owners shouldn't alter their pets, but your vehement defense for it come from a very different place than most ever experience... I would absolutely alter in your situation as well....
> 
> Now if we are going to bring horses into the discussion, then lets use them. If you alter a colt prior to maturity, it will _most likely_ never develop the traits of an adult male, intact horse. From bone and musculature which can be easily observed, to presence which is harder to define. They are specifically gelded to force them to remain less mature physically and even a bit mentally. It doesn't make them stupid or to loose the ability to work... That would be counter productive... #-o
> 
> ...


As a very long time breeder and competitor with horses, and being born on a cattle ranch, the statement that it is as likely to have a punk gelding as a punk stud is absolutely not correct! Obviously a stud can be taught to be nice around mares, etc, but it is a chore, I ride cutting horses, and every show has numerous studs that are good as a gelding around other horses, but any number of trainers will tell you if you saw what they had to do to make them that way, you wouldn't like them anymore!

Male dogs aren't like stud horses, anyway. Good thing, too


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Jim, I'm a longtime horseman myself having just recently moved from a 33k ac. working ranch, & I totally agree that the behavior is the issue not the testicles (as women would have you believe) my past stud dogs were always taught that they didn't get bred until I as pack leader said so! Seen stud horses the same. Makes for safety to both animals & IMO should always be the case. I have a great lady friend who owns a large boarding stable 400+ horses, she has an icon on her desk that says, "if it has tires or testicles it's bound to cause problems". Just my 2cents.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Germany has a law against surgical neutering? I had read that Norway did.
> 
> Anyone have a link?
> 
> ...


 Here is the complete paragraph on this...
to be found in
TierSchG
Ausfertigungsdatum: 24.07.1972 "


> *§ 6 *
> 
> *(1) Verboten ist das vollständige oder teilweise Amputieren von Körperteilen oder das vollständige oder teilweise Entnehmen oder Zerstören von Organen oder Geweben eines Wirbeltieres. Das Verbot gilt nicht, wenn 1.der Eingriff im Einzelfall a)nach tierärztlicher Indikation geboten ist oder
> b)bei jagdlich zu führenden Hunden für die vorgesehene Nutzung des Tieres unerläßlich ist und tierärztliche Bedenken nicht entgegenstehen,
> ...




Here is the link to it...
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tierschg/BJNR012770972.html

As for the horses,I did a bit poking arround on the web. It seems it is justified by the phrase about uncontrolled reproduction and the further use of the animal... 
i do not have current contact to a german vet, but ion time i might be able to figure it out.
I do not have the book that interprets the laws, so i am abit struggling ehre with the horse issue. but it could be covered under the two issues i mentioned.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

So then (without being able to translate yet), uncontrolled repro might mean that while you can control the dogs' repro, the horses are out in a field ..... I guess?

But .... they could be separated just like the intact dogs.

I need to translate. I'm not less confused than I was. :lol:

Thank you for the link!


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

For the dog part i know it is not that easy, cause you have to prove that changing the invironment and the way you manage the dogs isn't helping. It is not that easy to castrate a dog. the mass production fear is more with animal horders, or peolle that aren't capable to do take care of the dogs properly.
other then that it has to be indicated by a Vet that it really is necessary....

horses, I think there the use of the animal also comes in play... maybe even the danger part. i will try to figure this one out... 

Laws can be confusing...LOL


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Ok, here is the law part for the horses.. and where it is covered...

*



<H3>REGRESSFALLE "KASTRATION DES HENGSTES" - OPERATIVES VORGEHEN UNTER BERÜCKSICHTIGUNG DER FORENSIK

Click to expand...

*


> Gerhards, H.
> 
> *Rechtliches*
> Die Kastration des Hengstes mit gesunden Hoden und Hodenhüllen hat zum Ziel, die Befruchtungsfähigkeit und das Hengstverhalten operativ auszuschalten. Da der Eingriff in diesem Kontext nicht einer Heilbehandlung dient, handelt es sich um eine grundsätzlich verbotene Amputation eines gesunden Körperteils eines Wirbeltieres, die aber durch die Ausnahme nach Â§ 6 Satz 5. TierSchGes vom 25.05.1998 legalisiert ist. Forensisch handelt es sich bei der Kastration des normalen Hengstes (= nicht kryptorchen Hengstes) um einen Werkvertrag, d.h. der Tierarzt schuldet den oben definierten Erfolg.


</H3>to be found here:
http://www.tierklinik-hochmoor.de/index.php?id=125

which refers to this:


> 5.zur Verhinderung der unkontrollierten Fortpflanzung oder - soweit tierärztliche Bedenken nicht entgegenstehen - zur weiteren Nutzung oder Haltung des Tieres eine Unfruchtbarmachung vorgenommen wird.


Which means it is to control the uncontrolled reproduction or- if there are no health concerns- for the further use of the animal a castration/sterilisation is done.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

OK for the horses, which i can't find the link because i'm at work right now. It was all horses raised and trained anywhere in the world. And it was a Wika link.

As for neutering dogs? It is very simple 15 minutes surgery, i've watched hundreds of cats and dogs being neutered because i worked for a vet.
Dog is given IV sedation cocktail here usually (TKX) dog is under in about 15 minutes or less.
They then intubate with ISO gas and prep the surgery site. Clipping the coat from the area between the penis and testies. Dr. preps the spot with surgical scrub and cover with small drape.
Incision is made where the scrotum meets the body and pushes one testie into the area of the cut. The covering is slit and the testie popped out. Two hempstats are used to clamp off the cords the areas between are tied off with sutature and the area between is severed. Then the other testie is done.
Doc pushed the stumps back into the opening and removes clamps. Most of the time they close with skin glue or if very large dog a few sutures. ISO is turned off and dog is allowed to wake up.
On the other hand spay take a lot longer and involves going into the body cavity to and fishing around for the uterus. Pluuing it loose of it's moorings and making sure it's not tangled in any intestine. 
I'd say a neuter is a lot less stressful then a spay. 
And i'm sure there are different methods of neutering but this is what i have watched done by my vet.
K


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Horses are huge animals that can jump, climb, or tear down fencing if they really wanted to, at risk to both themselves or others. Keeping the average stud in an average pasture next to mare in heat (and again, keep in mind they come in season every 21 days and have a standing heat that lasts 2-8 days, so almost constant estrus) would be a joke. Most can jump a fence in a heartbeat, and others will try even if they can't (like dogs). Keeping them in a covered stall for the entire breeding season is impractical. But 1200 pounds is 12x the animal to control when compared to a dog that is ill behaved dog. 

Also like dogs (and kids), an adolescent male horse needs to learn how to control his hormones and what is acceptable behavior...


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I put off neutering my dog until he was 2.5 years old and then did so because he would drive us nuts if he smelled a female in heat in the area. The first two weeks after the surgery he actually acted worse but the third week brought improvement and now you can put him right next to a female in full heat and he could care less. However, I do think he has lost muscle since the neutering. He also lost a lot of his coat but that should come back since sometimes the anesthesic can cause a major shed. A breeder I know said had he been raised with females in heat he might not have been so reactive but I do not know this to be true. All I know is he was a male that took things to the extreme as I have had intact males that were very easy to live with. I hated having to neuter him but since I wasnt going to breed him I felt it was kinder to him to put him out of the misery his hormones were causing him.

I raised Quarter horses. We had cutting horses, show pleasure prospects and racing horses. I remember hearing on the track that sometimes a stallion after he was gelded could run faster. Not sure why.

I have an 8 month old female puppy now. I will spay her after her first heat and after she gets her championship. I have had people already asking if I have plans on breeding her because she is so nice. 
They think it is a crime not to breed her and I say there are enough puppies and breeders that I do not need to add to it.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I have a young male 17mos. Thatis being raised around females in estrus & yes it's a matter of control.
Maybe those horses run faster because they are lighter :-\" but seriously even male athletes are discouraged from sex, which like animals gives them more energy & better focus???
I always wondered about Lance Armstrong but I guess I don't have to wonder anymore.....


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

vicki dickey said:


> I have an 8 month old female puppy now. I will spay her after her first heat and after she gets her championship. I have had people already asking if I have plans on breeding her because she is so nice.
> They think it is a crime not to breed her and I say there are enough puppies and breeders that I do not need to add to it.


Well, the no breeding part I can understand, but who says she has to be bred? there is means to prevent it.
If this is the only reason why? why would you want to put a healthy dog through this? And if you are concerned about unwanted puppies, why not consider the less invasive sterilisation???
what would it be in your case that would justify this surgery? the total removal of an healthy organ?!?
Not picking on you. Just want to know what really drives you to do this?!


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> I have a young male 17mos. Thatis being raised around females in estrus & yes it's a matter of control.
> Maybe those horses run faster because they are lighter :-\" but seriously even male athletes are discouraged from sex, which like animals gives them more energy & better focus???
> I always wondered about Lance Armstrong but I guess I don't have to wonder anymore.....


hmm I might not be su sure about the weight... but well ones never knows.... maybe you should conduct some studies...LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Well, the no breeding part I can understand, but who says she has to be bred? there is means to prevent it.
> If this is the only reason why? why would you want to put a healthy dog through this? And if you are concerned about unwanted puppies, why not consider the less invasive sterilisation???
> what would it be in your case that would justify this surgery? the total removal of an healthy organ?!?
> Not picking on you. Just want to know what really drives you to do this?!


Some people read the research info available and make different decisions from yours.

It's very possible to read something like this http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf and decide on spaying at adulthood (or even before).

_" ... what would it be in your case that would justify this surgery? the total removal of an healthy organ?!? Not picking on you. Just want to know what really drives you to do this?!" _, with the _"?!" _added, comes across as a bit confrontational, rather than information-seeking.

Just sayin' ......


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Wasn't meant that confrontational... sorry it came across like this...
And thank you again for adding the link...:grin:


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> Maybe those horses run faster because they are lighter :-\"


Racing horses are kept intact _unless_ they will never be bred (for what ever reason) or just can't settle down to run and controlling them becomes just too much. Then you end up using techniques that lead to comments like this:


jim stevens said:


> trainers will tell you if you saw what they had to do to make them that way, you wouldn't like them anymore!


There is big money in breeding after the stallion retires, so gelding is usually a last resort. 



Bob Scott said:


> For a very long time John Henry (race horse) was the biggest money winner of all times. It all came after he was gelded and he was said to be almost uncontrollably aggressive before that and sold a few times because of it.


He was an ass, and even after gelding he was a jerk that no one wanted to handle. Some are just like that....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm sorta like Steve. I've lived with intact males and females for the last 20+ years and my males have never been obnoxious and like Steve says--its when I say. Right now I have two intact girlie dogs in the house that come in twice a year--big deal. It doesn't interrupt pack harmony and togetherness. I take my dogs out for runs and while Khyndra was in season Rhemy had a long line and besides Khyndra runs at Mach 90 and he can't catch her any way. Even if he's chasing her, if I start reward games, he forgets about her. His crate is right next to hers. So its micromanage for a few weeks but that's life. I see absoulutely no reason to neuter a male and don't spay bitches unless I sense a problem. This isn't religion for me and I believe in keeping the endocrine system intact and watching for any type of imbalance. I don't legislate for the masses and don't think everyone is incapable of managing their animals. I try to share information but in the end I believe in people making their own decisions. Bitches and mammary tumors are a valid concern. I'm less concerned about pyometra because I really manage and watch them in season and post and know their slightest twitch. You can manage your dog hormonally the same way you would yourself. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I think that stallions can most certainly be controlled, my brother in law had a stud with several stallions at stud and a racing stables that had quite a few young colts. I did quite a bit of the track work with the young colts when they came back from being broken in.

So I dont get the uncontrolled breeding part. The stallions were strictly managed in stables and paddocks with electric fencing. The colts were in stables when they wernt training on the track. There were plenty of mares around.

It would just be less convenient and a lot more management for the average horse owner.

I am interested as to how those European laws deal with cats. I guess the cats would need to be strictly kept inside at all times or they would be a nightmare to stop breeding.

Certainly in Australia I think that many people do have trouble with mananging uncastrated animals. We have so many vulnerable slow moving marsupials and reptiles and such a vast fragile unpopulated environment that was wide open for invasion by feral cats and dogs due to people not being able to control their animals. I think the culture and environment is very different. Here if people tire of an animal they can just dump it in the bush and many people dont care what their cats do at night.

There are obviously many responsible people but there are enough people who have no idea to allow their animals to have long lasting irreversible impacts on the environment. Feral cats and dogs are probably the two most devasting results of this. Goodness knows what sort of environmental meltdown we would go in to if all cats and dogs had to remain intact.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> It would just be less convenient and a lot more management for the average horse owner.


That is the problem. The average horse owner, at least around here, boards their horse and the barn owner/manager is the one left dealing with it. The average owner sees their horse _maybe_ three times a week, some even less (based on having managed two separate boarding facilities for a number of years) and don't have to be the ones dealing (and being responsible for a randy boy getting to the mares when neither belong to him). Couple that with unbred mares flagging them all the time with little exercise or stimulation. And a huge number are not kept in stables, but paddocks or pastures since stabling them that much would not be fair to the animal (again, ridden a few times a week if that). It is actually hard to find a boarding facility around here that will let you board a stud... 

I agree though. It is not that much work to handle a stallion :wink: Indeed, far from:


jim stevens said:


> ...the statement that it is as likely to have a punk gelding as a punk stud is absolutely not correct! Obviously a stud can be taught to be nice around mares, etc, but it is a chore... every show has numerous studs that are good as a gelding around other horses, but any number of trainers will tell you if you saw what they had to do to make them that way, you wouldn't like them anymore!


 I am lucky to have access to the family ranch where boys are kept whole unless there is a good reason to cut them.


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