# KNPV GSDs



## Olga Sukonnikova

Just liked the dog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5datpnwMDTU Does anybody happen to know who it is? Here he is with the handler: http://members.home.nl/borkseranch/...V. Rucphen 2012/album/index.html#IMG_5277.jpg

(By the way - there's no KNPV forum on workingdogforum.com, or have I missed it?)


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## Ben Thompson

Olga Sukonnikova said:


> Just liked the dog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5datpnwMDTU Does anybody happen to know who it is? Here he is with the handler: http://members.home.nl/borkseranch/...V. Rucphen 2012/album/index.html#IMG_5277.jpg
> 
> (By the way - there's no KNPV forum on workingdogforum.com, or have I missed it?)


I don't know who that dog is. Looks pretty nice though. Here is Gideon Gardefence KNPV dog. Remember Gardefence is the only GSD kennel that Alice respects! :-D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyVCMOm77U


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## brad robert

I dont know who he is either and thought he might be from the van-brandevoort kennels but im unsure


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## Ben Thompson

brad robert said:


> I dont know who he is either and thought he might be from the van-brandevoort kennels but im unsure


X2


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## Alice Bezemer

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't know who that dog is. Looks pretty nice though. Here is Gideon Gardefence KNPV dog. Remember Gardefence is the only GSD kennel that Alice respects! :-D
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyVCMOm77U


Thank you Benny! Nice video. I must have left quite the impression on you since I am still on your mind. :lol:


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## Ben Thompson

Alice Bezemer said:


> Thank you Benny! Nice video. I must have left quite the impression on you since I am still on your mind. :lol:


Hey your never wrong how could I not be impressed! :grin:


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## Olga Sukonnikova

brad robert said:


> I dont know who he is either and thought he might be from the van-brandevoort kennels but im unsure


Some nice vids with pups (& not only): http://www.van-brandevoort.nl/english/foto.htm



Ben Thompson said:


> X2



Which X2 is that?


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## Chip Blasiole

Just don't see the reckless entry I'd like to see that is more common in the best KNPV Mals and Dutchies. There is a lack of commitment. The really nice nice KNPV Dutchies and Mals start their entry about 15 feet before engaging. This dog just sort of ran up and bit the decoy. Flying with 15' entries tells you a lot more about a dog's drive and commitment. It is like Michael Joedan being able to dunk from the foul line. Only a few atheletes and dogs have that genetic potential. Other than the dog's lack of being a superstar, he looked okay otherwise.


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## brad robert

Chip Blasiole said:


> Just don't see the reckless entry I'd like to see that is more common in the best KNPV Mals and Dutchies. There is a lack of commitment. The really nice nice KNPV Dutchies and Mals start their entry about 15 feet before engaging. This dog just sort of ran up and bit the decoy. Flying with 15' entries tells you a lot more about a dog's drive and commitment. It is like Michael Joedan being able to dunk from the foul line. Only a few atheletes and dogs have that genetic potential. Other than the dog's lack of being a superstar, he looked okay otherwise.


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## brad robert

Chip Blasiole said:


> Just don't see the reckless entry I'd like to see that is more common in the best KNPV Mals and Dutchies. There is a lack of commitment. The really nice nice KNPV Dutchies and Mals start their entry about 15 feet before engaging. This dog just sort of ran up and bit the decoy. Flying with 15' entries tells you a lot more about a dog's drive and commitment. It is like Michael Joedan being able to dunk from the foul line. Only a few atheletes and dogs have that genetic potential. Other than the dog's lack of being a superstar, he looked okay otherwise.


Is this your opinion or fact??? also who said that this was the best gsd in knpv that you are comparing it to mals and dutchies?

Check out vids of Lubeck or Caro and they hit the decoys hard look at the faces on the decoys when they hit.
Dick recently wrote about decoys in knpv who test dogs hard being phased out i want to know how a dog flying thru the air for 15ft is anything other then fantastic to look at as in the real life which knpv is trying to breed for a dog flying thru the air is easier to avoid.Im not into high flying acrobats i just want a dog committed and gets the job done LOOK at the best knpv gsd on the suit working there bites they bring just as much fight as most.


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## Mark Sheplak

Here is an example of a careful entry sans drive and commitment. Just a pathetic, weak hit as well. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5KIYeOKiBA


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## Ben Thompson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgeK3VCA_PE&feature=relmfu

I like this one too same dog. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJzDemOmTfM&feature=relmfu

...and this one same dog also.


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## Bob Scott

Mark Sheplak said:


> Here is an example of a careful entry sans drive and commitment. Just a pathetic, weak hit as well.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5KIYeOKiBA



I've seen that one before. Kudos to the decoy for staying on his feet after that slam in the nads. He was sucking air after the dog was outed.


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## Brian McQuain

Lubeck rocks


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## Chip Blasiole

Brad,
I typed out a lengthy post and lost it. Bottom line is that in my opinion, the better KNPV Mals and Dutchies are flyers and it reflects their superior drive, athleticism and courage over the better KVPV GSDs.


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## Tiago Fontes

Chip Blasiole said:


> Brad,
> I typed out a lengthy post and lost it. Bottom line is that in my opinion, the better KNPV Mals and Dutchies are flyers and it reflects their superior drive, athleticism and courage over the better KVPV GSDs.


 
In your opinion a dog that flies into the decoy shows superior courage and drive? Why?

I agree about athleticism.


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## Chip Blasiole

I believe it shows a higher degree of motivation or intensity, which are other terms for drive. There is no hesitation and the dog isn't thinking about the situation too much, but rather is fully engaged as evidenced by flying/slamming his body into the decoy, even with the decoy coming toward the dog and hitting him hard with a large stick before the dog actually bites. This behavior requires a degree of courage.


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## Mark Sheplak

Chip,

O.K., so based on his KNPV work, Luebeck doesn't exhibit courage and doesn't posses a high degree of motivation or intensity? In the videos posted above, he isn't flying into the decoy with intensity? He isn't slamming into the decoy hard?


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## Chip Blasiole

Don't twist my words. I didn't say a word about Luebeck. I've heard he is a nice dog. I am speaking in general and saying that there are many more KNPV Mals and Dutchies that are more intense than the KNPV GSDs.


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## Mark Sheplak

Chip Blasiole said:


> Don't twist my words. I didn't say a word about Luebeck. I've heard he is a nice dog. I am speaking in general and saying that there are many more KNPV Mals and Dutchies that are more intense than the KNPV GSDs.


Yes, there are many more non-GSDs than GSDs in KNPV, period. 



Chip Blasiole said:


> the better KNPV Mals and Dutchies are flyers and it reflects their superior drive, athleticism and courage over the better KVPV GSDs.


Isn't Luebeck a member of the "better KNPV GSDs" group? What about Arros and Endo?

My disagreement is in your belief (your direct words above) that the top GSDs in KNPV can not match the top Mals, Dutchies and Xs. Given that 2 GSDs were co champs of the nationals this year, your statement doesn't seem to reflect reality in 2012. The top GSDs seem to be every bit the equal of the top non-GSDs based on performance. There just aren't that many of them competing.


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## Chip Blasiole

I'd say there are many fewer GSDs competing because there are so few really good ones. The breed's heyday was over a long time ago. The early GSDs were more like the better Mals/Dutch Shepherds of today.


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## brad robert

Chip Blasiole said:


> Brad,
> I typed out a lengthy post and lost it. Bottom line is that in my opinion, the better KNPV Mals and Dutchies are flyers and it reflects their superior drive, athleticism and courage over the better KVPV GSDs.


Chip,you bring up some good points and i would also agree with the athleticism being better in mals etc but I think there is a group of dedicated GSD breeders really trying and i think some great dogs are coming from those lines and should continue to with the right breed selection testing and weeding out and it gives me hope for the breed.I mean you can only breed what you test for you dont get a bird dog from a bloodhound-if enough breeders test for knpv i think the results will follow.


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## Chip Blasiole

I hope it is the case that there are breeders trying to improve the breed, but my bias is that too much valuable genetics have been lost for a variety of reasons that essentially boil down to selection. Some examples are the showlines and money, schutzhund, how it has been watered down, and how it doesn't test for traits that need to be tested for. Even Helmut Raiser said to save the breed there needs to be an infusion of Malinois genes. There are people openly breeding X's and I believe some experienced breeders producing X's unknown to the public.


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## brad robert

that would not surprise me at all about the mal infusion weather or not its needed im not sure as selectivity can change a lot but i guess its always a challenge to turn a vw into a porsche but anything is possible when you have a solid base.The fact these dogs are competing and doing well with these lines behind them is a start at the very least.


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## Ben Thompson

I don't think GSD were ever like belgian malinois. Mals have been around longer then GSD its not like they are some new breed.


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## Mark Horne

These are the results for GSD's in the 2012 KNPV Nationals, pretty good. I think and with all sports it helps to drive forward standards.


Shared 1st place in the PH1;
PH1 : Tom with Edo van Brandevoort with 440 points ! 
PH1 : Rob with Assan van Casio Hof with 440 points ! 

PH2 : Rick with Caro van Brandevoort came 7th place with 440 points !

I don't agree with the earlier point about dogs lacking courage and commitment by not taking off 15ft in front of the decoy, thats just a sport thing, they copy the training in Schutzhund for effect. A few weeks in the real world would quickly stop any KNPV taking off to hit an offender that early, the most experienced K9's barely take off at all but it's good youTube viewing and the crowds love it at the trials.

Mark


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## Chip Blasiole

Ben,
Not sure where you got the information that Malinois have been around a lot longer than GSDs. Their formal origins are both from around 1900. If you read any of v. Stephanitz's writings, you can discern that the early GSDs were much more intense and most likely more similar to Malinois.
Mark,
I'm not saying reckless entries are functional for real man work, but rather, tell you something about the dog's genetic potential. The same could be said about how a dog handles esquiving. I'm also not convinced that the majority of working K-9s or military dogs represent the best of the breeds, probably more so in the U.S and England.


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Chip Blasiole said:


> Just don't see the reckless entry I'd like to see that is more common in the best KNPV Mals and Dutchies. There is a lack of commitment. The really nice nice KNPV Dutchies and Mals start their entry about 15 feet before engaging. This dog just sort of ran up and bit the decoy. Flying with 15' entries tells you a lot more about a dog's drive and commitment. It is like Michael Joedan being able to dunk from the foul line. Only a few atheletes and dogs have that genetic potential. Other than the dog's lack of being a superstar, he looked okay otherwise.


It makes all sorts... etc, we know. Different kinds of people give preference to different kinds of dogs, and that is good. As for me, such quality as recklessness (imprudence & rashness are its synonyms) in working dogs as well as dogs' flying abilities don't appeal much to me. Instead, I would prefer intelligence, cunning, ability to analyse the situation and act accordingly. But that's my personal preference. Such dogs (the ones I prefer) might not make best "soldiers" and are quite possibly not the right type for KNPV. Only IMHO. 

Flyers. It's been discussed in some thread here what might happen to such flyer in case of esquive. But there are no esquives in KNPV. What I'm driving at - a good dog and a good dog for KNPV is not always the same. IMHO again, of course.


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Olga Sukonnikova said:


> It makes all sorts...


Takes. It takes all sorts to make the world...


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## Olga Sukonnikova

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD8Y82gGB1w


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Quite persistent fellow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfXpk0pkg3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOafEQw2M_s

KNPV is not only impetuous attacks. How long does it take to prepare a dog for PH1 exam?


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Gento vom Haus Larwin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_6di7b3EE


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## Chip Blasiole

I did not watch the video on Gento, but remember an interview I read many years ago with Gerald Van Es, who owned Gento at one time. He commented that training the dog in IPO was a waste so he was titled in KNPV as well. He mentioned how the dog was very handler hard and did not go down in drive at all with corrections, which he stated was more typical of the better Mals and not true of the GSDs, which was required to handle the stress of training in KNPV. 
In the topic KNPV 2012 Nationals, Stefan Staub makes reference to some of the harsh training approaches in KNPV. I believe that part of that harsh training is because the stronger Mals and Dutchies have a degree of dominance rarely seen in other breeds and not seen in GSDs much these days. The harsh training may in part also be cultural and hopefully changing somewhat. So with the best KNPV Mals and Dutchies, you tend to see dogs that have reckless, driven entries, are very handler hard and don't go down in drive with corrections and have a high degree of dominance which contributes to their strong fighting instincts. Few people want or can handle these type dogs.


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## Tiago Fontes

People assume way too much... Saying "KNPV training is too harsh" is an excuse when you dont have dogs with the ability to go through it... police dog life isnt soft...military working dog life isnt soft. So might as well weed out those who cant handle a demanding program vs "helping" the dogs obtaining titles.


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## jamie lind

Tiago Fontes said:


> People assume way too much... Saying "KNPV training is too harsh" is an excuse when you dont have dogs with the ability to go through it... police dog life isnt soft...military working dog life isnt soft. So might as well weed out those who cant handle a demanding program vs "helping" the dogs obtaining titles.


Wasn't marker training developed to train animals that are too strong to correct?
Are you saying training a strong dog is not possible without "harsh" training or are you saying "harsh" training is needed for people that are unable to tell the difference between a strong dog or a weak dog?


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## Tiago Fontes

Ok................................. ](*,)


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## Joby Becker

jamie lind said:


> Wasn't marker training developed to train animals that are too strong to correct?
> Are you saying training a strong dog is not possible without "harsh" training or are you saying "harsh" training is needed for people that are unable to tell the difference between a strong dog or a weak dog?


Not that I agree with Tiago about everything on this subject, but this is a false choice you present.

I think harsh training is harsh training, not that it is needed with a strong dog, or a requirement, but that it happens, and often by people that *can* tell if a dog is a strong or weak dog. IF it works for them, with the right dogs, that is what happens if they choose to use those methods.

I also would say that a weak dog will not make it through a tough training program that uses harsh methods. 

That yes, it says something about a dog that can make it through a rough training program that uses some of those harsher methods and not be ruined from it as other weaker charactered dogs might be. Not saying that it is best to use these methods or not, or that they are required to be used by anyone, that is a preference..but that it can tell you something about the dog...and I do know some people use harsher methods than others, specifically to find things out about the dogs, that may not find out without using them.

example using my variables, others are certainly possible though as well.

Take 2 dogs. Both get titled in whatever at age 3..both get the same points. both dogs are enthusiastic about the work in their performances and remain in drive and are confident..

1 dog is raised and worked with as a young puppy, tons of shaping and marker and all positive methods, is trained up using the kindest and fairest of methods and has received almost no compulsion or force in the training, the training goes smoothly for the dog and it receives very minimal physical methods in the training. it has learned mostly from witholding rewards or whatever...

The other dog is raised up in a kennel. Starts it training at 11 months. Is subjected to compulsion and force in its training, is corrected harshly and rewarded sparsely by most peoples standards..basically trained harshly for about 2 years to achieve the same title and score and works just as well as the first dog.

Which dog would you say we would know more about, in regards to its character, it's limits and ability to handle stressful training regimen, and harsh treatment, and still hold up, and be functional after going through it?

Again, I am not saying one approach is better or worse, or that dog 2 is any better than dog 1...I am saying that dog 1 is more of a mystery in certain regards, some things are left unexplored, and less is known about him...

I am also not saying that it absolutely necessary that those things be explored or found out by everyone, or in every case, or that it helps them perform the tasks any better...I am saying that one can learn different things about dogs by using different approaches, things that some people care about, and others dont...


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## jamie lind

Joby Becker said:


> Not that I agree with Tiago about everything on this subject, but this is a false choice you present.
> 
> I think harsh training is harsh training, not that it is needed with a strong dog, or a requirement, but that it happens, and often by people that *can* tell if a dog is a strong or weak dog. IF it works for them, with the right dogs, that is what happens if they choose to use those methods.
> 
> I also would say that a weak dog will not make it through a tough training program that uses harsh methods.
> 
> That yes, it says something about a dog that can make it through a rough training program that uses some of those harsher methods and not be ruined from it as other weaker charactered dogs might be. Not saying that it is best to use these methods or not, or that they are required to be used by anyone, that is a preference..but that it can tell you something about the dog...and I do know some people use harsher methods than others, specifically to find things out about the dogs, that may not find out without using them.
> 
> example using my variables, others are certainly possible though as well.
> 
> Take 2 dogs. Both get titled in whatever at age 3..both get the same points. both dogs are enthusiastic about the work in their performances and remain in drive and are confident..
> 
> 1 dog is raised and worked with as a young puppy, tons of shaping and marker and all positive methods, is trained up using the kindest and fairest of methods and has received almost no compulsion or force in the training, the training goes smoothly for the dog and it receives very minimal physical methods in the training. it has learned mostly from witholding rewards or whatever...
> 
> The other dog is raised up in a kennel. Starts it training at 11 months. Is subjected to compulsion and force in its training, is corrected harshly and rewarded sparsely by most peoples standards..basically trained harshly for about 2 years to achieve the same title and score and works just as well as the first dog.
> 
> Which dog would you say we would know more about, in regards to its character, it's limits and ability to handle stressful training regimen, and harsh treatment, and still hold up, and be functional after going through it?
> 
> Again, I am not saying one approach is better or worse, or that dog 2 is any better than dog 1...I am saying that dog 1 is more of a mystery in certain regards, some things are left unexplored, and less is known about him...
> 
> I am also not saying that it absolutely necessary that those things be explored or found out by everyone, or in every case, or that it helps them perform the tasks any better...I am saying that one can learn different things about dogs by using different approaches, things that some people care about, and others dont...


I get what is being said. But neither way changes the dog. I think if you train both dogs the same way you will find out more. I guess that's why people say train what you breed. And breed what you train. I don't tghink any title will tell you what you have including knvp.


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## Erik Berg

An article about KNPV and GSDs from the breeder that also had a GSD placing high in the championships not so long ago, 
http://www.kiridesja.com/?cat=40

I don´t agree that the dog that "fly" the longest is a proof of the strongest dog, of course a very fast 30kg dog is going to be able to fly longer than a plus 40 kg one. Strong couragetests I guess is preferable in all sports, but if a dog jumps from 2 meters doesn´t make him weaker than the one jumping from 4. In that case this GSD is stronger than some of the famous studs of KNPV unregistred lines, becaue he seems to fly pretty well,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm-jcIhh8k8&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXVglxx2aeg&feature=relmfu

Seen some very fast reckless entries from mals that have great preydrive in other sports, but not exactly the most couragesous, hard and general tough dog, more sportier type. A strong dog in IPO or other sport is probably going to do KNPV well, make sense considering in some litters one dog is doing IPO the other one KNPV.


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Erik Berg said:


> An article about KNPV and GSDs from the breeder that also had a GSD placing high in the championships not so long ago,
> http://www.kiridesja.com/?cat=40
> 
> I don´t agree that the dog that "fly" the longest is a proof of the strongest dog, of course a very fast 30kg dog is going to be able to fly longer than a plus 40 kg one. Strong couragetests I guess is preferable in all sports, but if a dog jumps from 2 meters doesn´t make him weaker than the one jumping from 4. In that case this GSD is stronger than some of the famous studs of KNPV unregistred lines, becaue he seems to fly pretty well,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm-jcIhh8k8&feature=plcp
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXVglxx2aeg&feature=relmfu
> 
> Seen some very fast reckless entries from mals that have great preydrive in other sports, but not exactly the most couragesous, hard and general tough dog, more sportier type. A strong dog in IPO or other sport is probably going to do KNPV well, make sense considering in some litters one dog is doing IPO the other one KNPV.


Thank you very much for the links! (Don't know Dutch, so tried this: http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=nl&to=en&a=http://www.kiridesja.com/?cat=40 )


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## Olga Sukonnikova

A training day pics: https://plus.google.com/11696672985...966729850388663663/albums/5760195351164595793


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## Olga Sukonnikova

A training day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyDZ41-Ksqg#Scene_1


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

People breed dogs for different reasons....GSD breeders more often than not are not interested in wreck-less entries. While high drive dogs may be prone to enter wrecklessly it doesn't mean that they are better than the dog that doesn't throw itself into the decoy. All these comparisons are not necessary. Both breeds appeal to different kinds of people. Its gets annoying when people who have only watched youtube videos start posting comments like its fact
What do you do when your hard hitting, athletic KNPV dog is afraid of slick floors, loud noises etc.....u sill use them for SWAT or riot control???](*,)


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

If GSD people were crazy about hit intensity or how wreckless a dog is, dogs like these would be popular studs but they aren't

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYHRmeFwO38&feature=plcp

Its also the reason dogs like Angsbacken's rosso are used more than dogs like Lubeck. Rosso is a good dog but i don't see the wrecklessness of Lubeck in him yet he gets the job done


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## Terrasita Cuffie

There is always a lot of assumption from sport people regarding the type of dog needed for LE or Military. How many LE/Military handlers want the handler hard/aggressive dog or dog that can get through "harsh" training? What type of action does the typical PSD see? There is a 14 week certification program typically. How is that comparable to KNPV? From a vendor perspective, how marketable is the dog that really needs boy collars for compliance because he is so handler hard or dominant?

T


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There is always a lot of assumption from sport people regarding the type of dog needed for LE or Military. How many LE/Military handlers want the handler hard/aggressive dog or dog that can get through "harsh" training? What type of action does the typical PSD see? There is a 14 week certification program typically. How is that comparable to KNPV? From a vendor perspective, how marketable is the dog that really needs boy collars for compliance because he is so handler hard or dominant?
> 
> T


It does not have to do with being "handler hard"... Its about mental resilience that will keep pushing the dog through stress and adversities in training and real life. Dogs like this, dont necessarily have to be handler aggressive as your posts seems to suggest. 

From a breeding perspective, I think the most extreme should be used for their traits will never be passed on 100%.


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## Chip Blasiole

Erik, 
I am not simply saying that the dog that "flies the longest is the strongest." I am just saying that the flying,reckless entries typical of Malinois and Dutch Shepherds show an intensity and athleticism that has been bred out of the GSD. There are many other traits that have to be considered, such as environmental nerves/strength, resiliency, bite strength, fighting instincts, hunt drive, etc. The initial video put up by Olga looked like a particularly average GSD.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Chip Blasiole said:


> Erik,
> I am not simply saying that the dog that "flies the longest is the strongest." I am just saying that the flying,reckless entries typical of Malinois and Dutch Shepherds show an intensity and athleticism that has been bred out of the GSD. There are many other traits that have to be considered, such as environmental nerves/strength, resiliency, bite strength, fighting instincts, hunt drive, etc. The initial video put up by Olga looked like a particularly average GSD.


What you need to ask yourself is IF working german shepherd breeders consider those traits as important. If not, then the the comparison is baseless and unnecessary. I love both breeds and i have seen the shit and the best of both. U cannot say something is better than another when the goals for making both are different. 
Yes, there are lots of shitty GSDs , much more than shitty malis but the best GSDs will still not act like the best malis.
I've used this example over and over but its still worth trying......i was at a mali kennel and they brought over this IPO3 mali from holland....insane strikes, super hard grip, the decoy couldn't move on the escape bite cos the dog was sort of digging his paws into the ground....i decide to give it a try and the dog won't engage me cos im dark skinned and he's never worked a dark skinned decoy....is that really a super dog??? A dog that isn't environmentally sound? That would stay in the corner of the kennel when visitors peeped through its kennel. 
Please just abandon this unnecessary debate...GSDs were not and are not being bred to fly 15 feet before engaging a decoy and thats why malis rule the sport world but dont misinterprete that as fear or inferior quality (apples and oranges sir)


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## Chip Blasiole

One of my points is that if GSD breeders consider traits such as flying, reckless, intense entries as important, it doesn't matter because the gene pool for that level of intensity has been lost in the GSD. Environmental nerve problems are prevalent in both breeds. As far as breeding a dog for apprehension, I don't see the goals for breeding Mals vs. GSDs as different. Again, another one of my points is that originally the breeds were not apples and oranges and the GSD breed has lost a lot of valuable genetics due to popularity, money, diluting the breed, etc.


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## Joby Becker

Chip Blasiole said:


> Erik,
> I am not simply saying that the dog that "flies the longest is the strongest." *I am just saying that the flying,reckless entries typical of Malinois and Dutch Shepherds show an intensity and athleticism **that has been bred out of the GSD*. There are many other traits that have to be considered, such as environmental nerves/strength, resiliency, bite strength, fighting instincts, hunt drive, etc. The initial video put up by Olga looked like a particularly average GSD.


not KNPV..but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gilN-GWVKg&list=FL5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A&index=4&feature=plpp_video


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## Chip Blasiole

If you have the chance, look at the second entirely revised American edition of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture by the developer of the breed, Max von Stephanitz. Look at the photos on pages 272-279. You see a dog clearing a five foot fence, scrambling over a ten foot high stone wall and running up a large tree to the height of about 13 feet. Von Stephanitz also tells a story of how he tested a dog by charging at him at a full gallop on his horse and the dog locked onto the horse's neck and had to be beaten off with a riding crop. Those are the genetics of intensity that are more commomnly seen in the better Mals and Dutchies and that are lost in today's GSD.


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## Erik Berg

I agree that some working GSDs are too "showdog" looking and I see no point in breeding for useless structural traits, maybe this is more common in countries that have stricter conformation rules when it comes to breeding. Or some people are just attracted to that kind of look.

Anyway, my point is extreme athleticism and intensity, what I know, are not related to a certain dominance, aggresion and hardness, or strong talent for hunting and tracking and function in different environment outside a grassfield. These qualities are not often discussed when talking about dogs that fly into a decoy, into a car or whatever. I mean, in the end this is a very minor part for many policedogs, and not the first priority for many breeders I suppose.

I guess there are also some differences what type of dog someone wants to breed, regardless if you breed GSDs or malinois/dutchies. I think it´s not so uncommon to find GSDs used in breedings that seems to be enough dog for doing both sport or servicework, even if not all dogs used in breedings are of that caliber.


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## Chip Blasiole

Erik,
I tend to disagree. Again, my point is that extreme athleticism and intensity are the product of various drives. For example, whether a Mal or Dutchie is a flyer or not, overall the good ones tend to have much more prey drive than GSDs. Focusing on KNPV Mals and Dutchies, the reckless entries are most likely a by product of their extreme drives rather than a specific trait that is selected for. Because the good KNPV breeders breed for extremes, you also tend to see traits of dominance and hardness much more common in their better dogs and to a much higher degree than in GSDs. While it might becoming bred away from in KNPV lines, I'd say there is a higher percentage of social aggression than in the better GSDs.
So it is not so much that flying entries mean a dog is a quality working dog, but rather, breeders looking for that level of intensity are also selecting for very high levels of intensity in other traits.
Certainly, there are numbers of GSDs that are "enough" to be a police service dog, but that are several notches below the best Mals/Dutchies IMO.


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## Erik Berg

Yes, but the extreme preydrive isn´t always combined with hardness, strong nerves and courage and all other traits that´s make a good dual purpose PSD for example. But I´m not sure which dutchies and mals you mean that are several notches above good GSDs, any examples? Still, if the dog is extremly flashy in his bitework but not so good in the tracking this will make him useless as a PSD, if long tracks is a common part of the job.

Some KNPV dogs are probably more GSD like than others considering what breeds have been mixed, I mean some have pretty much GSD influence.


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## Ben Thompson

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> If GSD people were crazy about hit intensity or how wreckless a dog is, dogs like these would be popular studs but they aren't
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYHRmeFwO38&feature=plcp
> 
> Its also the reason dogs like Angsbacken's rosso are used more than dogs like Lubeck. Rosso is a good dog but i don't see the wrecklessness of Lubeck in him yet he gets the job done


Is that dog in the video your dog? What is the dogs name?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

If you are going to quote von Stephanitz then there is the part that what makes a GSD a GSD is the stock sense/traits and he very much supported breeding for adequate structure that suited the stock dog function. GSDs were never supposed to be extreme in prey drive or wreckless. 

T


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Love this site. http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/eng_ppakwerk5.html There used to be some video of Robby vom Glockeneck ( http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/eng_glockeneck.html ), but can't find it now (not KNPV but used in breeding).


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Here's the video: http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/eng_video_robby2.html (I like Robby, he's present four times in one of my GSDs' pedigree.)


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## Christopher Smith

Tiago Fontes said:


> From a breeding perspective, I think the most extreme should be used for their traits will never be passed on 100%.


This is nonsense. These "most extreme" dogs are produced from less extreme parents in the vast majority cases. Dogs routinely produce dogs better than themselves.


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## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> This is nonsense. These "most extreme" dogs are produced from less extreme parents in the vast majority cases. Dogs routinely produce dogs better than themselves.


lol... Alright  

I'm going to start using lower drive dogs, because "dogs routinely produce dogs better than themselves". Why should I even care finding high quality well bred individuals. 

Really, what was I thinking!

Thanks for the eye opening.


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## Christopher Smith

Tiago Fontes said:


> I'm going to start using lower drive dogs, because "dogs routinely produce dogs better than themselves". Why should I even care finding high quality well bred individuals.



That probably is what you should do. But smart people will start with the best they can find and bred up from there. ;-)


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Ben Thompson said:


> Is that dog in the video your dog? What is the dogs name?


Sorry its not mine.....pretty old video, dog is most likely dead by now...I just used it as an example....All these unproductive arguments really get on my nerves at times lol...esp when its people who have no field experience stating 'facts'


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## Ben Thompson

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Sorry its not mine.....pretty old video, dog is most likely dead by now...I just used it as an example....All these unproductive arguments really get on my nerves at times lol...esp when its people who have no field experience stating 'facts'


 I agree 100% I'm always looking for high drive GSD studs thats why I ask. That was a AWESOME hit.


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## Chip Blasiole

Erik,
I should have added fighting instincts in addition to prey drive in my earlier post. I do believe the better KNPV Mals/Dutchies have strong fighting instincts and their desire to recklessly engage during the stick attack supports this belief. Again, the KNPV program is tough and the training methods tend to be harsh, so again, the result is likely to be hard dogs. I would venture to say that the best Mals/Dutchies from KNPV lines make some of the best PSDs for apprehension. Not so sure about the tracking, but that is largely training since most all dogs have such a keen sense of smell.
Terrasita,
Regarding structure, I believe a dog will herd all day if it has the drive to do so regardless of structure, unless there is something like HD.
Christopher,
You said that dogs routinely produce better than themselves. That sounds more like opinion than fact. I tend to believe the opposite, which is why a true stud dog that outproduces himself is so rare and valuable.


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## Christopher Smith

Chip Blasiole said:


> I tend to believe the opposite, which is why a true stud dog that outproduces himself is so rare and valuable.


So who produced this true stud dog? Was it a dog better or worse than him?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Chip Blasiole said:


> Terrasita,
> Regarding structure, I believe a dog will herd all day if it has the drive to do so regardless of structure, unless there is something like HD.
> .


We say all the time that a dog with drive and heart will out work his structure. However, over time, what will hold up better and lessens the risk of injury? I know a lot of herding dogs that are still working in some capacity at age 10-12. I just had my 14 month old out Sunday working a set of light sheep. I brought this little guy home because he has all the instinct, drive, and heart I could wish for. It is a line I know well. As a baby puppy, I surprised myself with the thought of hhhmmmmmm, he's a tad extreme. However, I do wish he had a tad more leg and better shoulder layback. When he's running, it always seems as if he is pounding on his front if that makes sense. The more drive/heart, the more they beat up on their bodies--or so it seems. So on Sunday, one of the things I wanted to see was could he get outrun. Well, that's where instinct and intelligence comes in. He kicked himself out wider and wider until he got around them. He's not going to have any issues but "ideally," I do wish he had a little more leg and shoulder layback. 

As for what Chris is saying, I've certainly seen dogs that produce better than themselves. 

T


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Otis Gardefense, PH1 - 428: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wH16TB1QYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sJfDTEEB_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH7Y0Dsu3A8


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## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> So who produced this true stud dog? Was it a dog better or worse than him?


Lemme ask you this:

If you didnt know a dog's producing ability, would you rather use for breeding a dog which expressed very intensely the traits you were looking to produce or a dog which was average in the expression of those traits? 

Which one would you use for breeding? From a practical standpoint.


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## Chip Blasiole

Chris, I did not say dogs do not outproduce themselves at all, but rather dogs that outproduce themselves as well as produce producers of producers, in terms of improving on desired traits is definitely the minority. And getting back to the decline of the GSD vs. Malinois/Dutch Shepherds, I'd say the gene pool for working GSDs has significantly decreased odds of outproducing in breedings compared to Mals/Dutchies. The ultimate is a stud dog that consistently outproduces himself and produces offspring that also outproduce themselves. Off course, the bitch is 50% of the equation.


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Arras (DWVH wedstrijd 20-10-2012): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVktiYF9EZs


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## Olga Sukonnikova

Assan Van Casino Hof, PH1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs2mv1HgVWM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wi-OS1JobQ&feature=plcp


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## Tiago Fontes

Tiago Fontes said:


> Lemme ask you this:
> 
> If you didnt know a dog's producing ability, would you rather use for breeding a dog which expressed very intensely the traits you were looking to produce or a dog which was average in the expression of those traits?
> 
> Which one would you use for breeding? From a practical standpoint.


 
Hey Chris, 

You're more than 24 hours late... Can you address the questions above?


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## Christopher Smith

Damn you're simple minded. The qualities of the parents have nothing to do with what I am saying. If the parents suck of course the offspring will suck. But in most cases you will find that they don't suck as much as the parents.

Now why don't you wait a while before you reply and that marinate for a while.


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## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> Damn you're simple minded. The qualities of the parents have nothing to do with what I am saying. If the parents suck of course the offspring will suck. But in most cases you will find that they don't suck as much as the parents.
> 
> Now why don't you wait a while before you reply and that marinate for a while.


 
Dear sir, 

A "Simple minded" qualification may be applicable to yourself not me, for it is you who always tries to twist words to suit your point of view. In fact, I would dare qualifying you as a "single track" mind, but that would imply a deep thought process, which is not evident in the posts I've read from you.

You made a statement, which constitutes a "fact" in accordance to your words and when asked to further develop that "fact", all you come up with are questions directed at those who question your "facts". Truth be told, I think your "facts" are full of it... 

As far as allowing some time for a reply/subsequent period of "marination", I am sorry to inform you that it has to do with my availability, for I am a lawyer and my time is limited to be discussing dog breeding concepts with you. 

However I can certainly understand your annoyance and attempt to qualify me as "simple minded" especially when your own words are used against you. 

Regards


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## Christopher Smith

A bird was flying south for the winter and ran into a storm. The storm was too much for the little bird and he fell to the ground, exhausted, freezing and starving. While the bird laid on the ground dying he called to a cow grazing nearby. He asked, "Dear cow...I'm dying...please help me." The cow looked at the pathetic bird and gave him a simple "yes" and turned his rear to the bird. Then the cow shit on the bird. 




While cursing the cow and her lineage, the warmth of the shit started to overtake the bird. The bird stop struggling and marinated for a while. And as he marinated he noticed small seeds in the shit and he ate them. And with his new found warmth and strength he started to get out of the shit and noticed a cat walking by. He called to the cat, "Mr. Cat please help me get out of this shit!" The cat said "Yes", promptly went over to the bird, pulled him out of the shit and ate him. 




Sometimes the person you think is shitting on you is trying to help you. And sometimes the person, that you think is helping you, has their own agenda. I asked you questions because, if you answered them, you will have the answer to your question and find out a lot more along the way. Good luck flying south little bird.


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## Tiago Fontes

Nice metaphore and all that, but sadly addresses nothing.


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## Christopher Smith

Tiago Fontes said:


> Nice metaphore and all that, but sadly addresses nothing.


It's a fable not a "metaphore".


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## Tiago Fontes

"A *metaphor* is a literary figure of speech that describes a subject by asserting that it is, on some point of comparison, the same as another otherwise unrelated object. Metaphor is a type of analogy and is closely related to other rhetorical figures of speech that achieve their effects via association, comparison or resemblance including allegory, hyperbole, and simile." 


Excuse me for "metaphore" spelling, but english is not my first language. Other than that, I think your fable qualifies as a metaphor.


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## Donna DeYoung

Erik Berg said:


> Yes, but the extreme preydrive isn´t always combined with hardness, strong nerves and courage and all other traits that´s make a good dual purpose PSD for example..


thanks for standing up for the GSD. I don't know why Chip has to bash the GSD as a whole. There are good ones being bred and worked. It comes down to individual choice on what dogs are purchased/bred/and worked. Perhaps you are seeing poor choices? There are plenty. But there are also good GSDs out there if you are willing to look.


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## Chip Blasiole

Donna,
I don't think I am bashing the GSD, but rather pointing out that as a whole, the quality of the breed has deteriorated from its origins. There are plenty of others with much more experience than myself that I bet would support my beliefs. Also, there are some very good GDSs out there. It is just much more difficult to find them, not to mention health problems. And, are they passing on their strengths? Also, I'm not sure the majority of people breeding GSDs are breeding for the extremes that keep working breeds superior at their work. For example, Google people breeding DDR GDSs. Look at how the Czech lines have changed with an influx of showline dogs in the pedigrees. A lot of these breeders claim to be breeding working lines, which technically they are, but they are actually breeding for a pet market.


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## Zakia Days

Wow!!!! I need a GSD now!!!! Love it!!!!


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## Olga Sukonnikova

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3XY_VyF3eM The dog wasn't driven over by the bike, only maybe his tail?


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## Ben Thompson

Olga Sukonnikova said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3XY_VyF3eM The dog wasn't driven over by the bike, only maybe his tail?


 i think it was his tail...I don't have slow motion on that thing. It didn't seem to bother him either way. I would try to keep the dog engaged in the bite if that ever happened. Its a good opportunity.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Chip Blasiole said:


> Donna,
> I don't think I am bashing the GSD, but rather pointing out that as a whole, the quality of the breed has deteriorated from its origins. There are plenty of others with much more experience than myself that I bet would support my beliefs. Also, there are some very good GDSs out there. It is just much more difficult to find them, not to mention health problems. And, are they passing on their strengths? Also, I'm not sure the majority of people breeding GSDs are breeding for the extremes that keep working breeds superior at their work. For example, Google people breeding DDR GDSs. Look at how the Czech lines have changed with an influx of showline dogs in the pedigrees. A lot of these breeders claim to be breeding working lines, which technically they are, but they are actually breeding for a pet market.



There is such a thing as opinion....many of the experienced people u are talking to are mali breeders that want to sell their dogs and feel the need to bash the GSD....there are many shitty GSDs for sure but that doesn't mean its as bad as you're presenting it. Maybe when u own one then you can boldly say the breed is shit. There are MANY GSDs in the US military, uk police etc.....why?????? There are so many malis for sale, why dont we all use them? Because we have our own preferences....i hope you have an open mind in the future when it comes to dogs.........Malinois are generally smaller than GSDs so they are more agile but no human will outrun the average GSD not even Usain Bolt ...so what's the recklessness for????? There are enough good GSDs and Malis for those who need them ,,,,,PERIOD!


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## Chip Blasiole

Oluwatobi,
For over 25 years, I have owned and trained nothing but workingline GDSs. MY current dog is a 7 year old male out of a sire from Czech lines, Cejlon z Hundorfu, SchHIII, DPOII, WPO, PSP-1, Certified narcotic police dog. His dam is Goldie von Castra Regina, SchH1, AD, who has many BSP participants close up in her pedigree.
MY current dog has HD, so I had to stop training him. He will and has bitten for real. He is a bit thin nerved with good prey drive and better hunt drive. He will not out on a suit unless I choke him off, partially because I believe he has strong fighting instincts, and partially because of the thin nerves.
Each dog I have gotten over the years was better than the last, but all had issues that were unacceptable to me. Also, I have decoyed for some pretty decent GSDs, but again, most of them have some type of issue that keeps them out of the category of a top working dog. For example, one dog in our club had extreme prey drive, very strong entries and grips, but poor hunt drive (would always do a building search with his eyes,) and practically shut down on slick floors. On a schH field, with the right trainer, he would have looked great. So I am speaking from some experience. I also realize there are a lot of Mals with nerve issues and poor character. But the GSD has definitely declined and it is very hard to find a top one IMO.


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## Erik Berg

Personaly I know at least one mal that couldn´t be a PSD because he couldn´t concentrate enough in the tracking, and a number of others while good sportdogs lacking to much in courage, hardness or too fearfull/aggresive around people the most common issues.

Of course many GSD is also bad, but how hard it is to find a good one seems also depending on who you ask. If looking at some of the GSDs at bigger SCH-events, or other sports, there seems to be a number of nice ones.

Saw this KNPV dog, had more than a few breedings, but what makes him so much better overall than some of the dogs used in GSD breedings, better on what if so?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTiFNnN0oTg

Is he really several levels above GSDs as this one,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRwAWVIHDJI


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## Christopher Smith

Erik Berg said:


> Of course many GSD is also bad, but how hard it is to find a good one seems also depending on who you ask. If looking at some of the GSDs at bigger SCH-events, or other sports, there seems to be a number of nice ones.


I don't think it's hard to find a good working GSD. I see them all the time. The hard part is finding a healthy one that works. There is also the fact that Malinois cost is about half of the price of a GSD that plays a huge factor. So I bought a dog that cost me less and has a better chance at being healthy.


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## Mark Sheplak

Off topic, nice powerful dog, but how did he score 100 with the dog hanging off the elbow with his canines like that on the escape? Ditto for the passive guarding? Ditto for looking at the handler as he walked over during guarding after the escape reattack? There has to be some point deductions there...


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## will fernandez

Dealt with 3 different pups from berry 2...each from different mothers...all became excellent police dogs...if he were pedigreed they would have been high level sport dogs...and/or if i were a better trainer..


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## Tiago Fontes

Mark Sheplak said:


> Off topic, nice powerful dog, but how did he score 100 with the dog hanging off the elbow with his canines like that on the escape? Ditto for the passive guarding? Ditto for looking at the handler as he walked over during guarding after the escape reattack? There has to be some point deductions there...



My thoughts exactly... But damn, that is one nice GSD... 

Going to try and see how he's bred.


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## Tiago Fontes

Another nice one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8NWIWGvBuA


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## brad robert

This thread was going along nice lets not drag it into the mal vs gsd type crap.Very few perfect dogs out there and one mans perfect dog is another mans crapper.I like both breeds and see good and bad in both no breed is perfect but buy from people who are striving for better.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> I don't think it's hard to find a good working GSD. I see them all the time. The hard part is finding a healthy one that works. There is also the fact that Malinois cost is about half of the price of a GSD that plays a huge factor. So I bought a dog that cost me less and has a better chance at being healthy.


 
I think this is it in a nut shell. Health is the main reason I don't have one. Its an incredible gamble. I've also heard the issue with price in terms of choosing between the two breeds. You may have working homes but $1000--$3000 for a puppy is outside the pocketbook.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> This thread was going along nice lets not drag it into the mal vs gsd type crap.Very few perfect dogs out there and one mans perfect dog is another mans crapper.I like both breeds and see good and bad in both no breed is perfect but buy from people who are striving for better.


I think if you like Mals, that's the breed you should stick to not argue that GSDs should be like Mals. Apples and oranges. It aso holds true for the opposite. Its the reason we have different breeds. I rarely see character traits discussed in distinguishing the two. Its words like speed, hardest hitting, hardest bite, extreme prey, size, etc. At the end of the day, in work [not sport], how relevant is all this?

T


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## brad robert

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think if you like Mals, that's the breed you should stick to not argue that GSDs should be like Mals. Apples and oranges. It aso holds true for the opposite. Its the reason we have different breeds. I rarely see character traits discussed in distinguishing the two. Its words like speed, hardest hitting, hardest bite, extreme prey, size, etc. At the end of the day, in work [not sport], how relevant is all this?
> 
> T


thats a good point i liked your first sentence.Im a gsd guy have no reason to change yet or wish my gsd where like mals mine have drive to burn.But there well bred and i expect that.

As for price over her mals and the likes same price as GSD so in that respect its a moot point really(here anyway).I keep hearing all this health talk and seriously wonder where these people are buying there gsd from obviously not good working line breeders as over here the schemes have done so well at excluding shit genetics for health it seem less and less issues with hips etc


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## Christopher Smith

brad robert said:


> thats a good point i liked your first sentence.Im a gsd guy have no reason to change yet or wish my gsd where like mals mine have drive to burn.But there well bred and i expect that.
> 
> As for price over her mals and the likes same price as GSD so in that respect its a moot point really(here anyway).I keep hearing all this health talk and seriously wonder where these people are buying there gsd from obviously not good working line breeders as over here the schemes have done so well at excluding shit genetics for health it seem less and less issues with hips etc


Brad I was told this a few years back and I looked into it. The health stats were the same in Australia were just about the same as the rest of the world. 

And remember not all health concerns have records kept in a database. I think that if a database was kept for all health issues you would see a different picture. Problems with allergies, chronic ear infections, back injuries and bloat are really common. And these are not just dogs from bad breeders.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Chip Blasiole said:


> Oluwatobi,
> For over 25 years, I have owned and trained nothing but workingline GDSs. MY current dog is a 7 year old male out of a sire from Czech lines, Cejlon z Hundorfu, SchHIII, DPOII, WPO, PSP-1, Certified narcotic police dog. His dam is Goldie von Castra Regina, SchH1, AD, who has many BSP participants close up in her pedigree.
> MY current dog has HD, so I had to stop training him. He will and has bitten for real. He is a bit thin nerved with good prey drive and better hunt drive. He will not out on a suit unless I choke him off, partially because I believe he has strong fighting instincts, and partially because of the thin nerves.
> Each dog I have gotten over the years was better than the last, but all had issues that were unacceptable to me. Also, I have decoyed for some pretty decent GSDs, but again, most of them have some type of issue that keeps them out of the category of a top working dog. For example, one dog in our club had extreme prey drive, very strong entries and grips, but poor hunt drive (would always do a building search with his eyes,) and practically shut down on slick floors. On a schH field, with the right trainer, he would have looked great. So I am speaking from some experience. I also realize there are a lot of Mals with nerve issues and poor character. But the GSD has definitely declined and it is very hard to find a top one IMO.



Well, first i must say i really appreciate your being very polite and civil in your replies. But i must say i've seen my own share of really good GSDs and being that i'm not an extremely lucky person i know there are many more out there. 
I think its important to note that there are A LOT of shit breeders out there and its possible to consecutively buy from such people over a period of over 7 years which is a short time since its not like ure buying a dog every week. And its a bit hard to explain how almost all the ones you've had the chance to decoy also had issues but believe me if they were all that terrible they wouldn't be doing RIOT CONTROL IN THE UK, and the US military would not bother using them at all....there are enough malinois to supply all those forces.


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## brad robert

Christopher Smith said:


> Brad I was told this a few years back and I looked into it. The health stats were the same in Australia were just about the same as the rest of the world.
> 
> And remember not all health concerns have records kept in a database. I think that if a database was kept for all health issues you would see a different picture. Problems with allergies, chronic ear infections, back injuries and bloat are really common. And these are not just dogs from bad breeders.


Hey Chris im not doubting the stats but what you have to remember over here showlines dominate about 90% of the litter registrations, working line breeders of merit or standing not that common.Yes i have seen allergies and ear infections i even had one of those probs with my own dog but on the average the working lines seem pretty hardy.might just be my biased and yeah i do see bad hips occasionally but usually from certain lies although most dont advertise there dogs have bad hips lol


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