# CCW Question



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

It looks like Wisconsin is going to Concealed Carry "Shall Issue" status in November. Who would have guessed that? I suppose it's not Illinois, but that is still kind of a shock

Anyway, for the sake of general conversation, what do you (who are able) like for CCW?

For the sake of, well, me, I have a more specific situational question. I am thinking of getting one for CCW. At a tactical weapons class, the instructor basically said you do not want a SAO for CCW, and both the instructor at said tactical weapons class and the local CCW class instructor pretty much love Glocks. Probably the old philosophy of in the heat of the moment a Glock or similar avoids the possibility of forgetting to turn the safety off, longer trigger pull acts as a bit of a safety feature, and just generally Glock fans love Glocks for their general reliability and whatnot.

My problem? I pretty much fell in love with the 1911 platform. I love the simplicity of the design, the trigger, the way you have to have a grip to shoot, the same trigger pull (going from 1911 to DA/SA has gotten REALLY jarring for me), the trigger, and the way the safety is easily switched off when you bring the left/supporting hand up to help hold the gun. I also find Glocks really ugly, although nobody gets them for decoration or anything.

I suppose that is not much of a "problem", per se, however I am wondering if I should stick with the 1911 or go with something else? I'd be open to pro's or con's either way. 

"Something else": If I DO go with _something else_, any suggestions for a 1911 fan? I am thinking between the 1911, XDM for the Glock-alternative, a nice .357 revolver, or suck it up and get a Glock. Any thoughts?

-Cheers


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My son has an STI Spartan 1911. 45 cal w/22 cal conversion kit.
LOVE that pistol! Shoots rings around my S&W 459. 
The Spartan also feels much nicer in the hand.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

While I am not of big fan of auto's, I do have and HK 45 auto Compact that is hard to beat.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

It's what you feel the most comfortable and confident with, no matter what other people say or do. A handgun should be an extension of you arm, a very personal choice in my opinion.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

A glock is pretty hard to beat for all purpose carry. I really like the little LCP 380 also as it fits in your pocket. If it is not easy to carry you will not. I have a 1911 springfield and a XD as well. I think the Glocks are just easy to carry and shoot. If you get one in 9mm cheaper to shoot as well.


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

> I suppose that is not much of a "problem", per se, however I am wondering if I should stick with the 1911 or go with something else? I'd be open to pro's or con's either way.


"Point and press" arms are popular among a WIDE variety of individuals, simply because they are simple to operate for the lowest common denominator of shooters. There is nothing wrong with that, and there certainly are some shooters who SHOULD be using this type of firearm.

Arms with manual safeties, like the 1911, require initial and sustainment training in order to ensure the shooter is, and remains, conditioned to properly operate the safety features, regardless of potential stress issues. While this is NOT a difficult process, it DOES take long term commitment to maintain a conditioned state. Just like in dogs, if we neglect to train human behaviors, the conditioning effect can degrade over time.

IMO, as long as you are honest with yourself and maintain the commitment to train and stay conditioned, than it really doesn't matter WHAT type of firearm you choose. However, if you KNOW in your heart of hearts that you will rarely train with your carry piece, then go with a "point and press" gun for the simplicity.

I carry a 1911, and I compete with a 1911. I've "driven" firearms for a living for 20 years, and every single one had a manual safety. I have NEVER failed to operate the safety when I needed to shoot, in training, or real world. Nor has "failure to operate the safety" ever been an issue with any of my lads. We had a designated training program for that however.

For the "point and press" variety, I'd look at the Glocks, S&W M&P series, or the Springer XD series. All of those guns are pretty popular in competition, and all have met the criteria for duty use by various LEO agencies.

For the 1911's, I have had great success with Springfield arms 1911's, and STI. IMO, the STI Spartan is one of THE best guns for the price. Accurate, well fitted, and forged internal parts. Some 1911 manufacturers (coughKIMBERcough...cough) seem to have problems with quality control and fail to properly fit extractors and slides resulting in stoppages right out of the box. While these issues are relatively easy to resolve, it kind of sucks blowing $900.00 on a gun and having to immediately do extractor tuning in order to get it to run.

Another option I'd check out is the CZ 75 series. The ergonomics are excellent, they are proven shooters, and they offer the option of carrying in either single action "cocked and locked", or with the first shot double action / hammer down. If I was a 9mm fan, this would be the one I get.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Go to a shop that will let you "rent" various guns and try a few different ones on their range. The Glock 23 in .40 Smith & Wesson sounds like something you should try. Uglier than a mud fence but effective.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

eric squires said:


> A glock is pretty hard to beat for all purpose carry. I really like the little LCP 380 also as it fits in your pocket. If it is not easy to carry you will not. I have a 1911 springfield and a XD as well. I think the Glocks are just easy to carry and shoot. If you get one in 9mm cheaper to shoot as well.


 Eric I have to agree on the LCP. While a very light 9, how many would go into a shooting at 50 yards? Someone correct me on the stats but many shootings are inside of 7 yards...With the LCP that means you are in the safe distance. If the firearm is too heavy, you don't carry and that kills the reason for having it.

Buying clean used guns is also a good deal as many are cash strapped in this economy. I like my M&P C9.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Colt New Agent is pretty sweet, but the trench sights take a few rounds to get used to. I almost always have my XD45 Service model on me. I have put around 15,000 rounds through the XD, gone through several courses with it, not a single malfunction. It's the ugliest firearm I own, but it gives me the warm and fuzzies knowing its on my hip as I type this. Terry Tussey and I were going back and forth over my "plastic toy" one afternoon until we went out back and I put a 1/2" three shot group at 25 yards off hand with it. 

The Spartan is a really, really nice 1911 option, like Bob said. My wife used to carry an XD45 as well, but hated how bulky it is, so she has the Spartan now. Very nice 1911. She kept bugging me for a Kimber, but I refuse. Pieces of crap. The one pistol I see fail, over and over again, every IDPA, IPSC, 3-gun or steel match. Every time. The Kimbers I do see run well have always been gutted and rebuilt using better parts, like Wilson...and around here, Terry is the guy doing all the upgrades.

Glocks owners tend to viciously defend their pistols, but I don't care for them. They never feel right to me. Ruger makes some good carry options...or you can carry an AR15.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

James Idi said:


> Arms with manual safeties, like the 1911, require initial and sustainment training in order to ensure the shooter is, and remains, conditioned to properly operate the safety features, regardless of potential stress issues. While this is NOT a difficult process, it DOES take long term commitment to maintain a conditioned state. Just like in dogs, if we neglect to train human behaviors, the conditioning effect can degrade over time.
> 
> IMO, as long as you are honest with yourself and maintain the commitment to train and stay conditioned, than it really doesn't matter WHAT type of firearm you choose. However, if you KNOW in your heart of hearts that you will rarely train with your carry piece, then go with a "point and press" gun for the simplicity.


That makes sense. I guess what I like about the 1911 is that disengaging the safety seems very natural when bringing up the supporting hand. That and visually, it is easy to see how the safety works, so my mind pretty intuitively "got it" that I have to knock that safety down so the slide can operate. It messes with me when I go to anything else because the 1911 seems logical (just knock the safety down because it's in the notch of the slide) and tactile, whereas on anything else I have to get used to something different, and usually (since I do not shoot them as much) I have to look and see if it's red or not. The mechanism for turning the safeties off seems less natural to me (although that is where practice probably helps a bit, eh?). Plus, I do like the grip safety as a secondary safety feature.

Diligence in training & maintaining the safety makes sense. I kind of like the idea of just incorporating the flick-the-safety-off into the drawing motion every time.

Thanks for the recommendations. I'd done a bit of looking into Glock and the XD/XDM. The S&W M&P sounds promising, as does the HK45C that Don mentioned above (if money is not an option, that would be a very intriguing one). I did handle a CZ and liked it a lot as well, so if I ever get a 9mm the CZ 75 might be a pretty good option. Sadly, an AR15 as mentioned below is a no-go. They won't quite fit in my pocket or an IWB holster. Sorry.

For now, I have a Dan Wesson RZ-45 that has worked great for me on the 1911 side of things. I also have a S&W .357 available (full-sized, wheel gun obviously, not a snub nose or anything), and a Beretta 90-Two .40 that is actually a real nice shooter but maybe a bit chunky for CC.

-Cheers


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Sadly, an AR15 as mentioned below is a no-go. They won't quite fit in my pocket or an IWB holster. Sorry.
> 
> 
> -Cheers


 
Details, details. 

CZ is a good option as well. I like shooting them, and I see a lot out competing.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I took a class from a guy that used a 1911 as his competition gun, and glock as his self defense guy




also, it looks like S&W military/police is replacing springfield as the glock alternative 


http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_750001_750051_757781_-1_Y


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> I took a class from a guy that used a 1911 as his competition gun, and glock as his self defense guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The S&W M&P is a fine firearm, but the trigger is without a doubt the worst I have ever experienced.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've carried a Glock 22(.40 Cal) for most of my career . We were looking to replace all of our guns because alot of them were pretty old . 

Our range staff tested many guns of many different calibres . They choose the Glock Gen 4 9mm(model 17 ?) and S&W MP 9mm . Evidently in testing the 9mm performed very closely to the .40 cal in stopping power and it shot better . 

The 500 officers got a chance to shoot both guns and descide on one . I'm sticking with the Glock . I shot great with my model 22 and love it but I will admit the trigger pull of the S&W MP felt much smoother . I just don't like dealing with the new trigger feel after almost 18 years of shooting the Glock . I go through class next week and get my new gun . It will be intersting .

Another thing you should take into account is size . Sure you can get an awesome gun that shots nice and has stopping power but once you start carrying it and find out what a PITA a gun can be to carry , Will you keep carrying it ?

Size , reliabilty , performance(how you shot it) , stopping power , # of rounds are all things to take into account . Unfortunately I haven't found 1 gun that covers all those areas in a gun for concealed carry .


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> ...but I will admit the trigger pull of the S&W MP felt much smoother


You liked the trigger?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Brian McQuain said:


> You liked the trigger?


Better then the Glock .


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

I normally carry a Ruger snub sp101 DAO spurless in .357 magnum. On the farm it is handy to put a couple rat shot cartridges in it for snakes, tough handy little gun.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> You liked the trigger?




trigga pleaze.......


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> I've carried a Glock 22(.40 Cal) for most of my career . We were looking to replace all of our guns because alot of them were pretty old .
> 
> Our range staff tested many guns of many different calibres . They choose the Glock Gen 4 9mm(model 17 ?) and S&W MP 9mm . Evidently in testing the 9mm performed very closely to the .40 cal in stopping power and it shot better .
> 
> ...




they unload the old ones? lots of times you can get screaming deals on used PD guns, and since glocks are like toyotas, its a good buy



Im a glock fan/owner, but werent there some complaints about the new generation?


Also, depending on the ammo, 9mm can be the best. My dept is one of the few around to still use 9mm, BUT they use speer gold dot +P, so you have more rounds, and ammo that is more powerful than the 40 or 45. I still want to add a 10mm to the arsenal


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

David Ruby said:


> It looks like Wisconsin is going to Concealed Carry "Shall Issue" status in November. Who would have guessed that? I suppose it's not Illinois, but that is still kind of a shock
> 
> Anyway, for the sake of general conversation, what do you (who are able) like for CCW?
> 
> ...


I have the Taurus 1911 and it's a joy to shoot. Not really a gun to carry though 

For carry, the Sig P238 cannot be beat. Great gun, excellent shooter, and have had no issues with it.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> they unload the old ones? lots of times you can get screaming deals on used PD guns, and since glocks are like toyotas, its a good buy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They gave us a chance to buy our old ones . I woul have liked to but I'm broke . Not sure how they are dealing with the guns after that . They all have a pretty nice SPPD stamp with state capital and everything on it so I'm sure some gun folks would like them .

That's what I heard about the 9mm ammo too from our range staff . Not sure if it was more powerful . What I heard was they all 40 , 45 and 9mm tested very close .


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

> I kind of like the idea of just incorporating the flick-the-safety-off into the drawing motion every time.


I'd recommend riding the safety and using a thumbs forward grip if you are not doing so already.

During the draw, the gun is gripped with the strong hand thumb over the safety, which affords the ability to depress the safety as soon as the gun clears holster/body if needed for a stupid close retention distance shot that doesn't allow extension. That's important if your support hand is unavailable due to injury, or because you are using it to block/strike/create space.

Use of a thumbs forward grip, which may be awkward at first, facilitates a more uniform return of the muzzle from recoil, which helps make follow up shots easier. I grew up using a cross thumb grip, and finally caved in to a buddies recommendation to try thumbs forward, which resulted in immediately shaving .05 ish seconds off of my split times. Every little bit of time saved helps.

Todd Jarret has a few youtube videos that discuss grip, which should start you in the right direction.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The +P amo isn't recommended for a lot of pistols. 
aka my owners manual (S&W 459) it says +P cartridges often exceed even factory proof-test levels of pressure and should never be used.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

James Idi said:


> I'd recommend riding the safety and using a thumbs forward grip if you are not doing so already.


Funny, I was just taught that two days ago.



> *During the draw, the gun is gripped with the strong hand thumb over the safety, which affords the ability to depress the safety as soon as the gun clears holster/body if needed for a stupid close retention distance shot that doesn't allow extension. That's important if your support hand is unavailable due to injury, or because you are using it to block/strike/create space.*


Even funnier, I was wondering how you would flick the safety in case your supporting hand was injured, pinned, or otherwise unavailable. Just sort of thinking through "what if" scenarios.



> Todd Jarret has a few youtube videos that discuss grip, which should start you in the right direction.


Cool! I'll check them out. Thanks for that.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The +P amo isn't recommended for a lot of pistols.
> aka my owners manual (S&W 459) it says +P cartridges often exceed even factory proof-test levels of pressure and should never be used.


I've read the same. Pretty much that +P is (or at least can be) bad for the frames of a lot of guns. I'd probably feel pretty adequate with standard 9mm JHP's, and if I needed more I would probably just go with a .357, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP and call it a day. I am anal about little things like that, and would rather preserve the possible functionality of the pistol with standard rounds over firing hot with +P's just in case it would, you know, cause failure when I needed it the most ala. Murphy's Law.

-Cheers


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Even funnier, I was wondering how you would flick the safety in case your supporting hand was injured, pinned, or otherwise unavailable. Just sort of thinking through "what if" scenarios."


Like dog training the "what if" scenarios are a lot of fun but like dog training, get familiar/comfortable/safe with your pistol before you start planning scenarios.
You'll shoot your eye out! :grin: :wink:


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

We use the sig P229 .40 cal on our CERT team. I really like it. Everything about it is smooth and its very well layed out. Its very easy to work through hard and soft malfunctions which rarely happen in the first place. Our captain said they used to have S&W's. Not sure the models but he said they got rid of them because they were nothing but problems. We took our 229's through the O course and by the time we got down to the range our weapons had chunks of mud jammed into every nook and cranny and they fired just fine. They are also very easy to take apart and clean. My buddy just purchased a Glock cant remember the model but it seemed nice. I wasn't as fond of the layout but that is probably cause I am so used to the 229's. I'm allowed to carry off duty but don't because I feel it's more trouble then it's worth. Thats a touchy subject with lots of people but just my 2 cents!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> It looks like Wisconsin is going to Concealed Carry "Shall Issue" status in November. Who would have guessed that? I suppose it's not Illinois, but that is still kind of a shock
> 
> Anyway, for the sake of general conversation, what do you (who are able) like for CCW?
> 
> ...


I carry a Star BM in 9mm. Same style as a 1911 but shorter barrel and not quite as heavy. I don't have a CCW so I have to open carry if I carry at all, but I don't carry with the safety on, I just leave the chamber empty - only takes a second to pull that slide back and rock and roll if need be.

It also fits perfectly in a kydex (sp?) 1911 holster, now if I can only find a left handed one


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> I've read the same. Pretty much that +P is (or at least can be) bad for the frames of a lot of guns. I'd probably feel pretty adequate with standard 9mm JHP's, and if I needed more I would probably just go with a .357, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP and call it a day. I am anal about little things like that, and would rather preserve the possible functionality of the pistol with standard rounds over firing hot with +P's just in case it would, you know, cause failure when I needed it the most ala. Murphy's Law.
> 
> -Cheers




no issue for glocks, I dont know how other wuss guns do with a little heat


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I missed David R's post there. I use +P in my Star BM with no ill effects. Actually, what's in it right now are Winchester "ranger" (formerly known as black talons) which are the fragmenting hollow points, and I also have hydra shock +p+ I use in it.


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

I was surprised to find what I "didn't" like when we dove headlong into the world of CCW. I'd say that if it's possible, go to a place where you can rent several different firearms. It's expensive, but it saved me money in the long run. 
We had asked many friends etc, what their weapon of choice was and found as many different opinions.

I settled on a S&W .38 at first simply because I understood how it works, which was important for me. 

My next gun of choice..(hint...birthday present) is a sig p290. It's new this year I believe but the size is perfect for concealment in an IWB holster.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> no issue for glocks, I dont know how other wuss guns do with a little heat


"The .40 S&W has been noted in a number of cartridge case failures, * particularly in older Glock pistols due to the relatively large area of unsupported case head in those barrels, given its high working pressure.*[21][22] These failures are commonly referred to as "kaBooms" or "kB!" for short.[23] While these case failures do not often injure the person holding the pistol, *the venting of high pressure gas tends to eject the magazine out of the magazine well in a spectacular fashion, and usually destroys the pistol. In some cases, the barrel will also fail, blowing the top of the chamber off.*"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S&W#Case_failure_reports


O.k., so that is not entirely fair out of context, and not really a +P issue, but still. Nothing is infallible. Although to be fair, if you can drop it out of an airplane, drag it behind a truck, bury it in mud, and still fire the thing I suppose that is pretty close.



Ashley Campbell said:


> I missed David R's post there. I use +P in my Star BM with no ill effects. Actually, what's in it right now are Winchester "ranger" (formerly known as black talons) which are the fragmenting hollow points, and I also have hydra shock +p+ I use in it.


Could be totally fine. Reportedly high-quality guns can handle +P's just fine, and Massad Ayoob backs +P & +P+ in one of his books, and he is an authority on this stuff.

Just personal preference, I'd want to make sure the gun was designed to handle that kind of pressure so it did not blow out the magazine, barrel, and chamber in spectacular fashion, or even just wear it down faster over time in a more boring manner. Maybe I'm just being overly cautious. It's obvious they work totally fine in proper circumstances.

-Cheers


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I missed David R's post there. I use +P in my Star BM with no ill effects. Actually, what's in it right now are Winchester "ranger" (formerly known as black talons) which are the fragmenting hollow points, and I also have hydra shock +p+ I use in it.


 
Ooooo...Im gonna tell! You can't get black talons anymore. Do you shoot your Star often? I haven't heard many (or any, really) good things about them.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Brian McQuain said:


> Ooooo...Im gonna tell! You can't get black talons anymore. Do you shoot your Star often? I haven't heard many (or any, really) good things about them.


 Winchester Ranger is the same round. Totally legal. The "Black Talon" name sounded too scary for the libs so Winchester just changed the name.

I carry a Colt 1911 Combat Elite on duty. I'm the only dinosaur left who does. I have a Glock 23 for off duty but it's still a little big. I went to the Glock after a number of nightmares wherein I was shooting bad guys with a .22, .25 or .380 and the bullets either just rolled out of the barrel or the bad guy kept coming.#-o


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

In my department(about 500 officers) we shot about 7-8 months out of the year department wide . On top of that I shot with the SWAT team and had extra training with the K9 unit too . We all used the .40 cal Glock .

I've never seen nor heard of a failure like that in our department . I saw very few failures of the Glock period in my 18 years of shooting it in the department and of those failures most were due to the shooter .


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> In my department(about 500 officers) we shot about 7-8 months out of the year department wide . On top of that I shot with the SWAT team and had extra training with the K9 unit too . We all used the .40 cal Glock .
> 
> I've never seen nor heard of a failure like that in our department . I saw very few failures of the Glock period in my 18 years of shooting it in the department and of those failures most were due to the shooter .


Hey Jim, from what I gathered the .40 S&W case malfunctions with Glocks were an early-on thing, and not all the time or anything. I've read they have solved that design issue with greater head case support on Glocks, and I believe stronger cases on the actual ammo itself in at least some instances.

-Cheers


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Winchester Ranger is the same round. Totally legal. The "Black Talon" name sounded too scary for the libs so Winchester just changed the name.


 
Yeah, I was just pokin fun. The Ranger T's are actually an evolved and better version of the black talons.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Brian McQuain said:


> Yeah, I was just pokin fun. The Ranger T's are actually an evolved and better version of the black talons.


 I shoulda known by your previous gun speak you were just joshin' him.


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## John Dickinson (Apr 28, 2011)

To the OP:

I read through the 3+ pages of responses and there is some good info for you but not knowing your back ground specifically have you ever asked your self the following question:

Can I really kill someone? If you had to stop and think to long, maybe carrying a firearm for self defense is not for you. I have witnessed one or two tough guys in the past when all was said and done they moved on to a different line of work. Carrying a firearm for self defense should not be as simple a decision as WHAT GUN to carry.

just my .02

good luck


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

John Dickinson said:


> To the OP:
> 
> I read through the 3+ pages of responses and there is some good info for you but not knowing your back ground specifically have you ever asked your self the following question:
> 
> *Can I really kill someone?* If you had to stop and think to long, maybe carrying a firearm for self defense is not for you. I have witnessed one or two tough guys in the past when all was said and done they moved on to a different line of work. Carrying a firearm for self defense should not be as simple a decision as WHAT GUN to carry.


Hey John. Actually, good/interesting question. I have thought about that quite a bit. The honest answer is I do not know, and probably will not until/unless it ever happens. I sincerely hope it does not and that the closest thing I come to shooting somebody is the black silhouette variety they sell on paper. I _think_ the answer would be yes, with the big caveat it would be only if there were no other options other than to just get killed. FWIW, I have actually read a lot about the mindset necessary to actually use lethal force and the repercussions afterward, emotional and legal. I am not sure many really know until forced to action. It is not something I take lightly though, and hope my association with defensive firearms never goes beyond a what-if scenario that never actually happens and something I enjoy doing for practice with my dad.

Point taken though.

-Cheers


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

http://www.killology.com/books.htm The book On Combat is pretty good.

Hopefully you never have to shoot anyone, but it is a good mindset to be in and not need. It can help for any number of emergencies if you are switched on, know where your cell phone is, etc. 


I carry a Springfield Arms XD subcompact sometimes, but every day I carry a .32 Kel-Tec pistol. 


I had heard nothing but crap reviews on most kel tecs and saw a few and never bought. A relative had one for CCW and I liked it and his review. The one I bought had an extraction problem, I sent it back and they fixed it.

I shoot mine dirty and lint filled out of my pocket every month or two. No issues in about 500 rounds. For me, mindset, concealment and convenience of carry is the big issue, not a speedy draw, although I practice some. I drop it in my pocket every morning. Spare mag too.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The Kel-Tec .32 tears up my sausage fingers. The Bersa Thunder is a pretty neat gun.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> The Kel-Tec .32 tears up my sausage fingers. The Bersa Thunder is a pretty neat gun.



ha ha. I got small hands. Not carney small, but small enough to fit it.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The gun has a very sharp recoil. Ever had a stovepipe or failure to feed?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> The gun has a very sharp recoil. Ever had a stovepipe or failure to feed?


Never really noticed the recoil that much. It's definitely manageable. It extracted crappy and stove piped until I sent it back to the manufacturer. After that. Nothing bad noted.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

No one uses an HK compact?? Thenonly thing that bothers me is dropping the hammer over a live round for the safe but ready to fire. Just can't bring myself to do it in the house.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No one uses an HK compact?? Thenonly thing that bothers me is dropping the hammer over a live round for the safe but ready to fire. Just can't bring myself to do it in the house.


I think the price is the main obstacle. That said, the HK45 (or HK45c) has piqued my interest. I'd have to save up a bit for it. What variant (DA/SA, DAO, LEM, etc.) do you have? Any thoughts on the ergonomics or trigger? It sounds like one the most highly regarded/reliable options, and one of the closest feeling .45 ACP polymer framed to a 1911 at least in terms of the grip-to-slide angle for how it shoots, and the interchangeable grips sound nice as well. If you want to chat it up, I'll listen. It's got my interest.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It is a DA. There is no hammer spur to cock it with. I am a single action guy myself but you pull the slide back to chamber a cartridge. Whe the hammer is back you thumb the release and it drops the hammer over the live round and it is ready to fire double action. Thumbing that release over a live round just gives me the willies the way that hammer snaps down. Never seen that before this gun. Other than that, it does feel good and never had a problem with it feeding.....but I don't shoot it much.


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Hey John. Actually, good/interesting question. I have thought about that quite a bit. The honest answer is I do not know, and probably will not until/unless it ever happens. I sincerely hope it does not and that the closest thing I come to shooting somebody is the black silhouette variety they sell on paper. I _think_ the answer would be yes, with the big caveat it would be only if there were no other options other than to just get killed. FWIW, I have actually read a lot about the mindset necessary to actually use lethal force and the repercussions afterward, emotional and legal. I am not sure many really know until forced to action. It is not something I take lightly though, and hope my association with defensive firearms never goes beyond a what-if scenario that never actually happens and something I enjoy doing for practice with my dad.
> 
> Point taken though.
> 
> -Cheers


Most citizens, and LEO's alike, carry firearms with the intent to STOP threats, NOT kill. There is a difference. 

NO citizen, other than sociopaths, wake up in the morning hoping they get the opportunity to end the life of another citizen. However, there are citizens who do NOT respect the law, OR the right to life we all share, and they do NOT have the ability or desire to reason. The ONLY way they can be stopped is through the use of force, be it deadly force, or otherwise. We ALL have the right to live our life in peace, free from unlawful deadly force used by criminals to impose their will, and if it takes the use of LAWFUL deadly force to maintain that peace, then so be it.

A firearm gives you options. Nothing more, nothing less. The only guarantee afforded by carrying a firearm is that you will have a more effective option of defending your life against one or more immediate deadly threats, IF you get the opportunity to use it.

You have the potential to stop a threat/s by: 1.) Presentation alone, that stops the will to attack 2.) Wounds that stop the will to attack 3.) Wounds resulting in the death of the threat.

A firearm lawfully used by citizens, contrary to popular belief, is NOT a tool of death, but a tool of LIFE. You owe it to your loved ones to have an effective tool to defend them, AND yourself, from those that would do them violence.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> I shoulda known by your previous gun speak you were just joshin' him.


 

As for what someone asked about the Star...well, I've put several cases (1000 rounds) of ammo through it in the 8 years I've had it. I have never had it misfire, jam, or any other issues. So I can't say a thing bad about it whatsoever. It's also very accurate. 

It's a superb weapon for a smaller person - it fits my small hands well and isn't so heavy that it gives me muscle failure to hold it up - perfect chicks weapon if I do say so myself.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

when I lived in a state where I could carry, I used to carry an AMT .380 Backup, fit in my pocket, or a wallet holster in my pocket... found out a wallet holster is not legal in IN....lol...

wasnt much, but it was small and reliable...Now I live in IL...The soon to be ONLY state you cant get a permit to carry in....


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## John Dickinson (Apr 28, 2011)

James Idi said:


> Most citizens, and LEO's alike, carry firearms with the intent to STOP threats, NOT kill. There is a difference.
> 
> NO citizen, other than sociopaths, wake up in the morning hoping they get the opportunity to end the life of another citizen. However, there are citizens who do NOT respect the law, OR the right to life we all share, and they do NOT have the ability or desire to reason. The ONLY way they can be stopped is through the use of force, be it deadly force, or otherwise. We ALL have the right to live our life in peace, free from unlawful deadly force used by criminals to impose their will, and if it takes the use of LAWFUL deadly force to maintain that peace, then so be it.
> 
> ...


James I agree with you 100%. I asked my question to the OP bluntly because I did not know his back ground and I did want to be confusing. In my line of work there is always conversations about the latest piece of equipment whether it is a firearm or some other type of gear. But very seldom does the topic of mindset come up. I am a believer in situational awareness and mindset.

W.E. Fairbairn once said while training OSS/SOE operatives: We have 40 hours to teach them to shoot and hand to hand combat but we have 400 hours to train theirs minds.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I would think the legal BS you are getting into, whether anyone dies or not, would be the biggest concern. Before a person even drops the hammer he better be prepared to lose everything to prove he was in the right. When I took the class, one thing that was explained it=s that the gun is for my protection, not anyone elses. If you see a violent crime taking place, you are really sticking your neck out getting involved. There is just a lot more to this than a lot of peopkle think.

And why is Il soon to be the only state you can get a permit in?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

James Idi said:


> Most citizens, and LEO's alike, carry firearms with the intent to STOP threats, NOT kill. There is a difference.
> 
> NO citizen, other than sociopaths, wake up in the morning hoping they get the opportunity to end the life of another citizen. However, there are citizens who do NOT respect the law, OR the right to life we all share, and they do NOT have the ability or desire to reason. The ONLY way they can be stopped is through the use of force, be it deadly force, or otherwise. We ALL have the right to live our life in peace, free from unlawful deadly force used by criminals to impose their will, and if it takes the use of LAWFUL deadly force to maintain that peace, then so be it.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with this, except the "1.) Presentation alone, that stops the will to attack". If you draw your weapon, it better be because you're about to pull the trigger, and not to rely on its intimitating look. 

HK's are fine weapons, except the price tag. They do what any of the listed manufactures here do, but at double the price.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Brian McQuain said:


> I agree with this, except the "1.) Presentation alone, that stops the will to attack". If you draw your weapon, it better be because you're about to pull the trigger, and not to rely on its intimitating look.


+1

I can't imagine a single situation where I would pull my weapon and the next immeadiate action wouldn't be to pull the trigger. 

CCW holders are not cops. You don't carry a weapon to compel compliance. You carry a weapon to defend your self from an imminent and unavoidable threat. I've always thought everyone, but especially CCW holders should carry OC spray. Someone wants to fight you? 12 feet of heat.


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Brian McQuain*  
_I agree with this, except the "1.) Presentation alone, that stops the will to attack". If you draw your weapon, it better be because you're about to pull the trigger, and not to rely on its intimitating look._



> +1
> 
> I can't imagine a single situation where I would pull my weapon and the next immeadiate action wouldn't be to pull the trigger.
> 
> CCW holders are not cops. You don't carry a weapon to compel compliance. You carry a weapon to defend your self from an imminent and unavoidable threat. I've always thought everyone, but especially CCW holders should carry OC spray. Someone wants to fight you? 12 feet of heat.


I wholeheartedly agree that when the deadly force line has been crossed, then it is time to discharge the firearm to stop the threat. However, I don't agree that the firearm can not be produced, in some situations, before that line is ever crossed, and successfully used to stop a threat without having to fire a shot. I guess it depends on your experience and judgment.

I would not immediately shoot a seemingly unarmed and hostile individual trying to get in my car while I'm stuck in traffic at an intersection, however, I would certainly produce a firearm and threaten the use of deadly force in an attempt to stop his threat, and to protect myself if he breached my vehicle. That threat alone may be enough to dissuade his attack.

If I find myself being "interviewed" by seemingly unarmed criminal/s, believe an attack is imminent, and have enough time and space to draw and threaten the use of deadly force in order to stop the threat, I would do so. 

While state laws vary, I am fortunate in that I live in a state that does not have a duty to retreat requirement, and does not consider a THREAT to use deadly force, to stop unlawful force, AS deadly force. So, IF...a big if at that....given the opportunity to stop unlawful violence using a firearm without having to shoot, I'll give it a try and hope the threat doesn't make me shoot them. I did enough of that overseas, and have no desire to have to do that here in my homeland.

Regardless, do what you think is best, and best of luck.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> http://www.killology.com/books.htm The book On Combat is pretty good.
> 
> Hopefully you never have to shoot anyone, but it is a good mindset to be in and not need. It can help for any number of emergencies if you are switched on, know where your cell phone is, etc.
> 
> ...



I never had any problems with my keltec 380, in fact the first time I tried the full police qual course with it (I guess everyone else had only tried the easier/closer 'back up' course) , I would have gotten a perfect score but at the 25 yard I had 2 (or maybe 3) rounds that were center mass but just below the line so it was the hip/groin area. I was impressed since it basically has no sights.

Id recommend the ruger LCP 380 WITH laser as the best pocket gun for the money

I upgraded to a KAHR 380 with legit night sites and a crimson trace laser, head shots in low light at about 30 yards were no problem



***too bad 1) they dont sell the glock 380's in the U.S.

2) that glock doest make a pocket, single stack 380, it would have dominated the pocket gun market and they would have made many millions


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

not really, in fact it covers this in the grossman "on combat" that was just mentioned and the more popular but not as good "on killing", there are two types of people that are capable of killing (for good), and would make good soldiers/police, 1) those guys that actually want to kill, 2) those guys that dont want to but accept it matter of factly and will do it, makes me think of tom hanks in saving private ryan

I also always laugh at that seinfeld episode when they go to L.A. and get a ride from the cops and ask them if they ever shot/killed anyone, and they act all disappointed when they say no.





James Idi said:


> Most citizens, and LEO's alike, carry firearms with the intent to STOP threats, NOT kill. There is a difference.
> 
> NO citizen, other than sociopaths, wake up in the morning hoping they get the opportunity to end the life of another citizen. However, there are citizens who do NOT respect the law, OR the right to life we all share, and they do NOT have the ability or desire to reason. The ONLY way they can be stopped is through the use of force, be it deadly force, or otherwise. We ALL have the right to live our life in peace, free from unlawful deadly force used by criminals to impose their will, and if it takes the use of LAWFUL deadly force to maintain that peace, then so be it.
> 
> ...


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

something everyone should read, and they main point of all the grossman books


http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

James Idi said:


> If I find myself being "interviewed" by seemingly unarmed criminal/s, believe an attack is imminent, and have enough time and space to draw and threaten the use of deadly force in order to stop the threat, I would do so.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## John Dickinson (Apr 28, 2011)

As far as pulling a firearm and then not firing, this is where knowledge of the law in that area and lawyers come into play. I know in my area if I pulled my firearm out and did not fire, I could be charged with brandishing a weapon at a minimum. There are probably other charges I could be hit with as well. I would then have to court and prove I felt my life was in jeapardy by proving the person demonstrated
1. Ability
2. Opportunity
3. Intent
and I may also have to prove that I had no means of egress to escape the threat.

HK makes OK weapons but they are way over priced. I remember when I worked there back in the early 90's and the P7 series was still being sold, the USP was to be the savior and take the handgun market from Glock, who was dominating it at that time.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would think the legal BS you are getting into, whether anyone dies or not, would be the biggest concern. Before a person even drops the hammer he better be prepared to lose everything to prove he was in the right. When I took the class, one thing that was explained it=s that the gun is for my protection, not anyone elses. If you see a violent crime taking place, you are really sticking your neck out getting involved. There is just a lot more to this than a lot of peopkle think.
> 
> And why is Il soon to be the only state you can get a permit in?


the only state you CANNOT get a permit in..


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

QUOTE] Thats the second time this week I've heard that term "interviewed".[/QUOTE]

The "interview" is usually a part of the victim selection process used by many opportunistic criminals. It is often used as a final test to determine whether or not the selected victim is worthy of an attack, or too much of a risk.

Opportunistic criminals usually follow a sequence of events, in one form or another, prior to launching an attack.

1. Targeting- Usually from a distance. They look for signs of physical weakness, over all awareness, and weakness displayed by a lack of confident body language.

2. Close the distance- Either directly by moving toward the potential victim, or simply waiting in a position to ambush the target. They continue to assess the awareness of the potential victim, and the body language.

3. Position for an attack- This is where they conduct their "interview". They may ask some type of question, beg, or whatever. Their goal is to interact with you to see how you react and whether or not they can intimidate you. They test to see if they can enter your personal space. If you show signs of weakness, they may move to a final position of attack, or continue to distract you for an accomplice. If your response is weak, they will attack when they think the time is right.

While your body language and actions can disrupt and prevent a potential threat before they reach the "interview" phase, your actions during this phase will largely determine whether or not they launch an attack. If you lack confidence, allow them to intrude on your personal space, and don't have the fortitude to tell them to beat feet, you will most likely "pass" their "interview" and be subject to their hostile act.

I am very cognizant and protective of my personal space, and any potential threat that attempts to intrude on my space for no logical reason, will be told to stop in a manner that clearly indicates I will defend my space. Citizens, and bums alike, immediately stop and maintain the distance, and the encounter is either amicably completed, or they are told to beat feet. Should they fail to maintain their distance, they are assumed to have hostile intent, and I will defend myself as warranted.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

James Idi said:


> The "interview" is usually a part of the victim selection process used by many opportunistic criminals. It is often used as a final test to determine whether or not the selected victim is worthy of an attack, or too much of a risk.
> 
> Opportunistic criminals usually follow a sequence of events, in one form or another, prior to launching an attack.
> 
> ...


Im well aware of its definition...just isn't something I hear very often outside of people I work with, let alone twice in a week.


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