# Crappy PP dogs and Trainers...



## Joby Becker

Not sure why some people assume that all PP dogs and training are crap, have no control and can't handle any pressure. 

Just because someone isn't into training for organized sport does not mean that their dogs suck or their trainers suck.

Repost of 14 boring minutes of video from "personal protection" events.

All of these dogs are pets, average people..average "PP" type dogs...

I've done 6 of these type of shows and been to countless others, and almost all the dogs entered do not fall into the "crapper" or out of "out of control" categories.

You can pick apart the vids, the dogs, and the training..as you wish, but I wouldn't call any of these dogs crappers...or say that the dogs couldn't handle any pressure, or that they have no control, or that the training absolutely sucks.

Of all the dogs in these videos, only one had sport training, it was a french ring dog, that did not win any of the events.

Some people just don't have an interest in sports. Or the desire to train for them, doesn't mean they have crappy dogs, and are incapable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ROL6xwTUis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngDHS6GweNU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYnp5FgTkmw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRSGTDI2Gm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if5QA-rTxOQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgOUglmp5AY


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## Michael Swetz

I'm not going to comment on the videos since I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough. However, I think the conceptually the problem most people have with the very broad dog training world of "personal protection" is the quality control. 

While organized dog sport may be limiting and less realisitc to various degrees depending on your venue, it does impose criteria to evaluate against. If someone claims to be a trainer for sport x, it logically follows you can evaluate them based on how many dogs they've titled in sport x, how have they placed in regional/national competition in sport x, etc. With personal protection, you don't have that. So while yes, there are certainly legitimate personal protection trainers and good dogs, they're much more difficult to distinguish from the legions of clowns who have no idea what they're doing.

I've done various martial arts since I was about 9 and I liken this to the "too deadly" fallacy a lot of traditional arts follow. No, we don't compete. Our techniques are too deadly. They're designed to kill and cripple. Organized competitions are too artificial. In the real world, there are no referees, time limits, or limits on what moves you can do. Every once in a while, you'll find someone that really is tough and would mess you up, but they get lost in the sea of people deluding themselves about what they're capable of.


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## Joby Becker

Michael Swetz said:


> I'm not going to comment on the videos since I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough. However, I think the conceptually the problem most people have with the very broad dog training world of "personal protection" is the quality control.
> 
> While organized dog sport may be limiting and less realisitc to various degrees depending on your venue, it does impose criteria to evaluate against. If someone claims to be a trainer for sport x, it logically follows you can evaluate them based on how many dogs they've titled in sport x, how have they placed in regional/national competition in sport x, etc. With personal protection, you don't have that. So while yes, there are certainly legitimate personal protection trainers and good dogs, they're much more difficult to distinguish from the legions of clowns who have no idea what they're doing.
> 
> I've done various martial arts since I was about 9 and I liken this to the "too deadly" fallacy a lot of traditional arts follow. No, we don't compete. Our techniques are too deadly. They're designed to kill and cripple. Organized competitions are too artificial. In the real world, there are no referees, time limits, or limits on what moves you can do. Every once in a while, you'll find someone that really is tough and would mess you up, but they get lost in the sea of people deluding themselves about what they're capable of.


Understood. I have seen my share of these types, and been labeled as being one of these types as well. 

The generalization just doesn't sit well with me that's all....It's the whole PP vs. Sport thing I understand. 

I respect good dogs and good people, regardless of the focus of the training.


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## Jim Nash

There are generalizations made about everyone's venue here . Be it Sport , PPD , Police , SAR , etc. . 

It's something all of us have to deal with .


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## Joby Becker

Jim Nash said:


> There are generalizations made about everyone's venue here . Be it Sport , PPD , Police , SAR , etc. .
> 
> It's something all of us have to deal with .


I know....up until about 5 yrs ago I was a schutzhund basher, based on some limited exposure to a small segment of dogs, people, and clubs.


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## James Downey

Nothing against PP dogs or handlers at all. If I did bust on someone, It was simply because I did not agree with them. Not that I disagree with there sport. And of course, I have slang some mud just in an effort to be shit head and push buttons.

I feel the more venues of training there are, the better. Since each tend to focus on something more than the last we get exposed to things we never would as long as we stay in our own circles. I think that every venue has something to offer....This then shows up in breeding. When I breed for a SchH dog, My focus would be entirley different than a Ring, or PP breeding. Sooner or later, hopefully the strong points of each venue come together and make the breed stronger, and more capable.


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## jack van strien

James,
Can you xpand a little further on why you would look for something different in the breeding of dogs for different sports?A good dog should be able to do whatever sport or work?


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## James Downey

jack van strien said:


> James,
> Can you xpand a little further on why you would look for something different in the breeding of dogs for different sports?A good dog should be able to do whatever sport or work?


 
I agree that a good dog should be able to any sport. But we are not consistently breeding dogs that can fit that defintion of good dog yet. 

I should not have used the words "entirley different"...I think we are not looking for same things all the time. But we are not looking for the opposite either. 

a Pretty obvious thing that come to mind in selecting dogs for as breeding dogs for IPO is Grips. I see that people in IPO place much heavier value on the full, calm grip thing than other sports. Then thier is tracking...which I do not see people choosing thier breeding stock solely based on how well they track. but having a good tracker will defintly up the anty on an IPO breeding. Also, the thing that is really determining who is winning these days is who has V rated Obedience dog. Obedience can be argues a lot to do with the training. But I think there are some dogs that are just genetically not as fast and flashy as others. I also think the natural retrievers are easier to train IPO OB and get the points with. 40 points on those dumbbells...and getting the dog to go out fast is pretty easy...It's coming back that is tough. Back to the point. This demand for precision Obedience defintly takes a dog that has a certain genetic component to it. Where other sports may not have to worry so much about if there dog has a good retrieve or send out. So a dog in another sport that may not be as animated in their work "a good dog".

Also with IPO's agility being as silly as it is, I think we can get away with a dog that is not as atheletically gifted. The sports that have a pallisade defintly take a dog that is much more athletically gifted...The pallisade itself could rule out entire breeds from competeing in sports that include it in thier agility. But that IPO dog that leaves something to be desired could have a great bite, and bark, stand up to pressure well...and be deemed a "good dog"

I do not want to speak out of turn because I do not have much experience with ring dogs. But I notice the ring dog breeders like the pushers, that show a lot more fight, I myself do not care if my IPO dog shakes when he/she bites. But some IPO folks see this a negative, believeing the grip may loosen. Also, Ring defintly has an enviormental componet to it, that IPO does not. Again an enviormentally sensitive dog with a good grip, and strong nerves interacting with humans...may be deemed a "good dog"

The flavor of the month I see in IPO with Malinois is smaller dogs that are little rockets. I myself like a bigger dog. And maybe you can validate this or tell me that I got bad info...but the KNPV crowd likes a bigger dog. That maybe more of a personal preference thing...and not really have to do with dogs ability to work. But it may play a factor into what dogs people are choosing to breed to. I know size for me is important. 

And as of late, at high levels (FCI worlds) for IPO I am seeing a shift in what dogs are doing well, the sporty dog is still making a good show and doing well, but last year the amount of dogs that appeared to be real in thier work are doing better than years past. The mehcanics of the dog's temperment being taken into account, and not that he sits nice and pretty in front of the decoy during the bark and hold...that sort of thing.

And one thing that tells me that different sports attract different kinds of dogs, is the lines. There seems to be an unwritten division where people get there dogs from depending on what sport they are doing. 

And as selective breeding goes on, people will continue to choose the animals they think have traits that lend themselves best to the sport or work of thier choice. 

Also, I was not just refering to the good dogs....I was talking breeding in general, dogs in general.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

To me, PP people get stuck on the baby level, and never go past that. That is fine if that is all they want to do, but I do get ever so sick of hearing about how "real" their dogs are. 

I also get sick of how many shitters are bred that have never had any control put on them. I am not an idiot, I KNOW the majority of them had some control put on them, and they melted like butter in the hot sun, and the PP handler quit whatever it was that made his dog look like the shitter it really is, and then they go to these venues, and stink up the place.

If people want to go out and have fun, I am all for it, but the problem is that they are "generally" opinion shoppers, and when they find the opinion that fits what they want to hear, you start hearing the same drivel coming out of their mouths. It is just SOOOOOOO ****ing boring.

So off they go with their melty melty dog and start contaminating the world with it's shitter seed. Kind of like sleeve suckers in the Sch world. How many of those shitters were producing 1 or 2 out of a litter of 8 that could barely do the sports ?? LOL

So yeah, up your standards or play around in venues where you look like a ****ing beginner. I don't care to hear how "real" your dog is.


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## Howard Gaines III

Michael and Joby, you folks bring up solid points. I have said it before, for those who own working dogs, you NEED to give it an outlet.* I could care less about that venue. It boils down to the harmony you and your dog have and in the training area you use. *

Joby, I don't do videos and feel if you want to see "some action" then show up here. Like what you see GREAT, don't like it...I'm secure with that too. I have had folks drive 4 hours to be here and those who have made the trip were real good folks and had super nice dogs. We continue to share a solid bond with a New Jersey dog club even though they have taken a "sport" interest. Again, these folks are caring adults and care about the work that goes into their working dog training...

Michael you martial arts points ring real close to home! Just because you train in a certain style doesn't mean you NEED to go out and beat people up. "Yeah, slammed a few cold ones and now its time to beat the life out of granny!" RIGHT! Discipline in every form.

Solid points and one I like, thanks.


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby,

The videos you posted proved my point. I have no problem with individuals who train their dogs for PP and then TEST their training in organized events like Crunchfest or Streetwise etc. or organized scenario based "sports" like PSA or APPDA. My problem is the self proclaimed "professional" PPD trainers who charge outrageous hourly fees or $10K for a "trained" dog but NEVER show their training in any kind of independently judged event. Even worse are the "trainers" who can't cut it in recognized legitimate "sports" and then invent their own "organization" where they make excuses and change the rules at their whim. Where they make up silly "muzzle only" rules etc.
A good dog with a good trainer will be able to do sport or PP or even Military or Police K9 work


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## Adam Rawlings

Thomas,

I know you were addressing Joby with your post, so I hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions.

Why does a trainer need to trial his/her dog to be credible? If you sold one of your Sch.3 dogs, what would they be worth? All the hours of training that go into a dog must be worth something? I get a kick out people that paint all PPD trainers with the same brush, there are PPD groups that spend just as much time training a fine tuning a dog as there counterparts in sport. I'm working with a young dog towards a ring title and also have a PPD without a title out of the same working lines, please tell me what is the difference between the quality of these two dogs other than a title?


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## Howard Gaines III

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> The videos you posted proved my point. I have no problem with individuals who train their dogs for PP and then TEST their training in organized events like Crunchfest or Streetwise etc. or organized scenario based "sports" like PSA or APPDA. My problem is the self proclaimed "professional" PPD trainers who charge outrageous hourly fees or $10K for a "trained" dog but NEVER show their training in any kind of independently judged event. Even worse are the "trainers" who can't cut it in recognized legitimate "sports" and then invent their own "organization" where they make excuses and change the rules at their whim. Where they make up silly "muzzle only" rules etc.
> A good dog with a good trainer will be able to do sport or PP or even Military or Police K9 work


 So Thomas in order to be successful you have to play in a sport? Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black. Why should we have to tip our hat and get "tested" by the sports folk? If that were the case, just play the freaking sport to the fullest!!!! More info PLEASE>>>>>>>>>>>


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## Thomas Barriano

Adam Rawlings said:


> Thomas,
> 
> I know you were addressing Joby with your post, so I hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions.
> 
> Why does a trainer need to trial his/her dog to be credible? If you sold one of your Sch.3 dogs, what would they be worth? All the hours of training that go into a dog must be worth something? I get a kick out people that paint all PPD trainers with the same brush, there are PPD groups that spend just as much time training a fine tuning a dog as there counterparts in sport. I'm working with a young dog towards a ring title and also have a PPD without a title out of the same working lines, please tell me what is the difference between the quality of these two dogs other than a title?


Hi Adam,

You don't need to trial a dog to be credible. You do need to test the dog. In fact if it's your own dog, the only person you have to please is yourself. On the other hand if you're going to charge someone for training or a trained dog, then you should have to walk the walk and NOT just talk.
I would never sell any dog that I'd trained, no matter what the price. Training/trialing is something I do with my pets not to make money.


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## Thomas Barriano

Howard Gaines III said:


> So Thomas in order to be successful you have to play in a sport? Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black. Why should we have to tip our hat and get "tested" by the sports folk? If that were the case, just play the freaking sport to the fullest!!!! More info PLEASE>>>>>>>>>>>


Howard,

You don't have to play in a sport at all. Any PPD trainer should prove his "training" by independent impartial testing before he charges other people. Otherwise it's more a case of the PPD trainer with the best line of BS, then the best training, that is successfull


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## Howard Gaines III

Thomas Barriano said:


> Howard,
> 
> You don't have to play in a sport at all. Any PPD trainer should prove his "training" by independent impartial testing before he charges other people. Otherwise it's more a case of the PPD trainer with the best line of BS, then the best training, that is successfull


 OK so who would be the "tester" of that venue? Even better, how do you prove those skills, like the martial arts students that belts, can't count on the dojo as the "official" and independent testing agent!

I'm hearing those wheels turning and you're just where I want you, back to square one. There really isn't any avenue to use that isn't sport or LE connected...if so what?!!!


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## Howard Gaines III

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Adam,
> 
> You don't need to trial a dog to be credible. You do need to test the dog. In fact if it's your own dog, the only person you have to please is yourself. On the other hand if you're going to charge someone for training or a trained dog, then you should have to walk the walk and NOT just talk.
> I would never sell any dog that I'd trained, no matter what the price. Training/trialing is something I do with my pets not to make money.


 If the only person you have to please is yourself, why test? You say you would never sell a do that you trained. Nice, aren't you also selling your skills and abilities, like a resume for any job???
Thomas making money is the American way, some of what this country was founded on, I think. Being independent and free to make one's own choices...If I trained a PPD for resale, I would bring in someone I trusted to test it, and then let the buyer make the call. I have imported before. I trust my broker's skills to be my ears, eyes, and mouthpiece for this purchase. If trust isn't a multi-layered event, what is it?


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## Thomas Barriano

Howard Gaines III said:


> OK so who would be the "tester" of that venue? Even better, how do you prove those skills, like the martial arts students that belts, can't count on the dojo as the "official" and independent testing agent!
> 
> I'm hearing those wheels turning and you're just where I want you, back to square one. There really isn't any avenue to use that isn't sport or LE connected...if so what?!!!


Howard,

Start a K9 Crunchfest or Streetwise Show.
Contact your competitors. You think up a scenario or two and they think up a scenario or two put them in a hat and do the scenario you pick. Its easier to test your training then to make excuses


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## Thomas Barriano

Howard Gaines III said:


> If the only person you have to please is yourself, why test? You say you would never sell a do that you trained. Nice, aren't you also selling your skills and abilities, like a resume for any job???
> Thomas making money is the American way, some of what this country was founded on, I think. Being independent and free to make one's own choices...If I trained a PPD for resale, I would bring in someone I trusted to test it, and then let the buyer make the call. I have imported before. I trust my broker's skills to be my ears, eyes, and mouthpiece for this purchase. If trust isn't a multi-layered event, what is it?


Trialing /testing pleases me. I'm not selling my services.
IF I was asking someone else to pay me for them, I'd feel
obliged to prove the quality of what I was selling. Bringing in a trusted (and independent) person to test your training is what I 'm talking about


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## Chiat Joon

Ah, can't help noticing how caustic some comments are. So much anger. I recommmend more fibre in your diet. Helps constipation.

For real protection please refer to Guns & Ammo magazine. Can't go wrong there. 

Most of you guys here get a thrill when your "PP" dog goes for the jugular of some random drunk on the street just to satisfy your sadistic streak. Admit it. Nothing more satisfying than seeing a dog sink his teeth into your fellow man.


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## Joby Becker

Chiat Joon said:


> Most of you guys here get a thrill when your "PP" dog goes for the jugular of some random drunk on the street just to satisfy your sadistic streak. Admit it. Nothing more satisfying than seeing a dog sink his teeth into your fellow man.


lol


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## Adam Rawlings

Chiat Joon said:


> Ah, can't help noticing how caustic some comments are. So much anger. I recommmend more fibre in your diet. Helps constipation.
> 
> For real protection please refer to Guns & Ammo magazine. Can't go wrong there.
> 
> Most of you guys here get a thrill when your "PP" dog goes for the jugular of some random drunk on the street just to satisfy your sadistic streak. Admit it. Nothing more satisfying than seeing a dog sink his teeth into your fellow man.


You bet I like seeing my dog take down a drunk and for practice I send him on women with strollers.:roll:


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## Joby Becker

Adam Rawlings said:


> You bet I like seeing my dog take down a drunk and for practice I send him on women with strollers.:roll:


I train them by putting kittens in the strollers...so they know where to look...for their prey


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## Gerry Grimwood

Joby Becker said:


> I train them by putting kittens in the strollers...so they know where to look...for their prey


 Kinda reminds me of a guy named Andre who was here a few years back, I dunno why :lol: I said something he didn't like and he pm'd me with a threat.

This forum was quite interesting then, before the influx from....

I need to go outside and play with my dog.


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## Joby Becker

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Kinda reminds me of a guy named Andre who was here a few years back, I dunno why :lol: I said something he didn't like and he pm'd me with a threat.
> 
> This forum was quite interesting then, before the influx from....
> 
> I need to go outside and play with my dog.



HUH? don't get it...sorry...


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## Tim Lynam

In my opinion, PPD sector trainers are the most numerous of all the bite work dog trainers. Therefore, it also tends to have the most “fly by night” people selling a bill of goods to an unsuspecting public. See this link for a further explanation of my train of thought.

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f16/what-good-personal-protection-dog-13041/ 

I would assume, the poorest PPD trainers stand out to most of us here on this board as the ones that focus on the bite work only. With only a .27% chance of any dog biting in it’s lifetime, a personal protection dog being judged strictly on it’s biting ability and quality is just plain stupid. It’s like judging a Ferrari on how loud it’s horn is. Good trainers train the dog to keep you out of situations where it would have to bite. After all, that is what it should be doing 99.9% of it’s life.

To the “normal” citizen that wants a biting dog, buying sport dog from a titled sport trainer is the only way to go. Joe citizen can be “quickly” taught what the dog already knows via the regimented list of the particular sports regimen. Usually the foundation the dog already has lends itself well to most peoples needs. ie. control, OB etc. Also, a fair price structure can be established based on the level of the dog’s training.

With PPD’s, the “normal” citizen is usually at a loss as to what the definition of a PPD actually is. I guess it’s a dog that will bite. Simplistic and sad. That in and of itself leaves them at the mercy of the higher number of trainers that have just formed their own opinion of what a PPD is and can’t even demonstrate in real terms what that means. I guess that is what Thomas is really saying, and has taken the view to “Super Hero” or “Broken Record” status trying to protect the innocent. Take your pick, but; he still makes a valid point. To those of you that ask him what it would take to test a PPD dog, I ask you why your asking HIM? You are the experts... Bringing in another "Independent" to test the dog? What exactly would he/she test for? Therein seems to be my problem with some PPD trainers. They are just a bunch of (usually) unlicensed yahoos that can't get together and agree on ANY criteria that might shed some light on the quality of their product. Do you just lack imagination or is it your just too lazy?

Training a dog to be a good PPD takes more time and patience than training for sport. (That ought to get some people going!) After all, it's almost all scenario based. Therefore, teaching a novice (citizen) buyer/handler how the dog works is much more complicated and time consuming. That, in and of itself tends to hamper sales... “But I just want a dog that will protect my family.” (bites) Face it, most people don’t want a dog they have to stay tuned in too when they are jogging or playing with the kids at the park. They don’t want to have to be paying attention to what the dog is telling them. They want a dog that is going to take care of things themselves. Good trainers teach them that is wrong headed and such a dog will actually have the potential to screw up their life more than if they didn’t have the dog at all.

I’ll finish with an example that happened just last night. I take my Standard Poodle for a run every “night” around 1:30 in the morning. The park we go to is not near any populous area and not normally a hang out for low life types at that time of night with a foot of snow on the ground. We were about ten minutes into him checking his P-Mails when he stopped, then trotted over to me and sat, facing the massive jungle gym about 75 yards away. We normally walk by it every night... I stopped and listened hard, but heard nothing. Trusting my dog, we headed for the car. To the sudden jeers from the gym of “Where are you goin’ bitch?!" "Nice poodle, sweetie!" The dog did just what he was taught. He kept me out of a potentially bad situation. THAT’s a PPD dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg

I said this on a different thread. All things being equal and if possible, I would prefer my dog bite someone than blow the dude away with a bullet between the eyes. I'm just kinda funny that way.


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## Thomas Barriano

Hey Tim

Very well stated. Thanks for articulating my thoughts better then I did 
I recall someone training Std Poodles as stealth PPD dogs for
select clients. I even know of a couple with SchH titles.





Tim Lynam said:


> In my opinion, PPD sector trainers are the most numerous of all the bite work dog trainers. Therefore, it also tends to have the most “fly by night” people selling a bill of goods to an unsuspecting public. See this link for a further explanation of my train of thought.
> 
> http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f16/what-good-personal-protection-dog-13041/
> 
> I would assume, the poorest PPD trainers stand out to most of us here on this board as the ones that focus on the bite work only. With only a .27% chance of any dog biting in it’s lifetime, a personal protection dog being judged strictly on it’s biting ability and quality is just plain stupid. It’s like judging a Ferrari on how loud it’s horn is. Good trainers train the dog to keep you out of situations where it would have to bite. After all, that is what it should be doing 99.9% of it’s life.
> 
> To the “normal” citizen that wants a biting dog, buying sport dog from a titled sport trainer is the only way to go. Joe citizen can be “quickly” taught what the dog already knows via the regimented list of the particular sports regimen. Usually the foundation the dog already has lends itself well to most peoples needs. ie. control, OB etc. Also, a fair price structure can be established based on the level of the dog’s training.
> 
> With PPD’s, the “normal” citizen is usually at a loss as to what the definition of a PPD actually is. I guess it’s a dog that will bite. Simplistic and sad. That in and of itself leaves them at the mercy of the higher number of trainers that have just formed their own opinion of what a PPD is and can’t even demonstrate in real terms what that means. I guess that is what Thomas is really saying, and has taken the view to “Super Hero” or “Broken Record” status trying to protect the innocent. Take your pick, but; he still makes a valid point. To those of you that ask him what it would take to test a PPD dog, I ask you why your asking HIM? You are the experts... Bringing in another "Independent" to test the dog? What exactly would he/she test for? Therein seems to be my problem with some PPD trainers. They are just a bunch of (usually) unlicensed yahoos that can't get together and agree on ANY criteria that might shed some light on the quality of their product. Do you just lack imagination or is it your just too lazy?
> 
> Training a dog to be a good PPD takes more time and patience than training for sport. (That ought to get some people going!) After all, it's almost all scenario based. Therefore, teaching a novice (citizen) buyer/handler how the dog works is much more complicated and time consuming. That, in and of itself tends to hamper sales... “But I just want a dog that will protect my family.” (bites) Face it, most people don’t want a dog they have to stay tuned in too when they are jogging or playing with the kids at the park. They don’t want to have to be paying attention to what the dog is telling them. They want a dog that is going to take care of things themselves. Good trainers teach them that is wrong headed and such a dog will actually have the potential to screw up their life more than if they didn’t have the dog at all.
> 
> I’ll finish with an example that happened just last night. I take my Standard Poodle for a run every “night” around 1:30 in the morning. The park we go to is not near any populous area and not normally a hang out for low life types at that time of night with a foot of snow on the ground. We were about ten minutes into him checking his P-Mails when he stopped, then trotted over to me and sat, facing the massive jungle gym about 75 yards away. We normally walk by it every night... I stopped and listened hard, but heard nothing. Trusting my dog, we headed for the car. To the sudden jeers from the gym of “Where are you goin’ bitch?!" "Nice poodle, sweetie!" The dog did just what he was taught. He kept me out of a potentially bad situation. THAT’s a PPD dog.


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## Howard Gaines III

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I said this on a different thread. All things being equal and if possible, I would prefer my dog bite someone than blow the dude away with a bullet between the eyes. I'm just kinda funny that way.


 Lee you are so full of yourself, you know that a handgun round might average $1.00 per shot. You're just too cheap to spend the money. LOL


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## Molly Graf

Stealth PP dogs - LOL!!!!!! who would have thought. I've known a couple labs, and a Golden Retriever that would bite for real - stealth PP dogs - a new market! LOLOLOL

molly


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## Howard Gaines III

Molly Graf said:


> Stealth PP dogs - LOL!!!!!! who would have thought. I've known a couple labs, and a Golden Retriever that would bite for real - stealth PP dogs - a new market! LOLOLOL
> 
> molly


HOLD THE PHONE!

Are you the same Molly who trains with a cure dog named "GloK?" And whose owner could be just a little evil? And comes from the "You gots a friend in Pa?"

Oh my!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mrgreen:


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## David Ruby

I think there are some legitimate criticisms about PPDs and PP trainers brought up. Specifically:



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> To me, PP people get stuck on the baby level, and never go past that. That is fine if that is all they want to do, but I do get ever so sick of hearing about how "real" their dogs are.


I think there is something to that. Sport requires you to spend more time on OB and has a grading system of sorts (points, titles, etc.), and yeah, I can see how without something driving you it would be easy to get stuck at lower level stuff. That said, I would guess most (who aren't looking for a tough-guy status symbol) probably want a PPD for a handful of scenarios. Specifically the home invasion, the jogging partner, simple stuff like that. So really, in most people's lifestyles they aren't going to be doing a 45-minute advanced OB routine with jumps, retrieves, flashy OB (that really make no difference in the dog's working ability anyway), and even though I think it's kind of cool a mugger is not likely to have a hula-hoop square or a tarp and esquive the dog on a long send (although score points for Mondio, I think the environmental/objects the decoys use are probably not altogether that unlikely).

I can see your point though, and I think if somebody is going to have a dog that acts as a true body-guard type of dog, control should be paramount.



Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> The videos you posted proved my point. I have no problem with individuals who train their dogs for PP and then TEST their training in organized events like Crunchfest or Streetwise etc. or organized scenario based "sports" like PSA or APPDA. My problem is the self proclaimed "professional" PPD trainers who charge outrageous hourly fees or $10K for a "trained" dog but NEVER show their training in any kind of independently judged event. Even worse are the "trainers" who can't cut it in recognized legitimate "sports" and then invent their own "organization" where they make excuses and change the rules at their whim. Where they make up silly "muzzle only" rules etc.
> A good dog with a good trainer will be able to do sport or PP or even Military or Police K9 work


Hey Thomas, I think there are people who are interested in protection work that would love it if there was a (for lack of a better term) Ringsport for actual protection dogs. The proof of that is the existence (past or present) of ASR, APPDA, SDA, PSA, and the wet dreams (figurative, I hope) of an American KNPV-system.

I have no qualifications to know this for a fact, but I think an organized sporting event is never going to really be the same as a real test for a true PPD. There is too much structure to a lot of them, and too much opportunity to cue the dog into what they are supposed to do. I was once told that a good test for a PPD would be something like you rent a hotel room, hang out for a few hours (like three or four), relax, watch Braveheart or put in Lord of the Rings, relax, have a glass of wine, take a nap, whatever, then stage a break-in when you and the dog are not expecting it, and then have a video camera set up to record it and analyze it after the fact. That is a different environment than taking the dog out of the crate, doing the same OB routine you've done hundreds of times and you get to key your dog up for the protection scenarios.

That is not a dis on sports. I just think it would be hard to set something like that up for quite a few reasons. And maybe for most, sports are the best bet since it gives you an established test to train toward, and there is some accountability. It is probably a fact that there are exponentially more hacks than legitimately reputable PP-trainers doing street work. That said, why should a reputable PPD train toward a sport that does not test your dogs for what you are actually training for if you are trying to create a true PPD? We'll pretend this is the small minority that exists in my mind or in the real world for a moment. Then, if you believe that training a SchH dog or a Ringsport dog or even a PSA dog is less than ideal for a true protection dog, what is the answer? Do you compromise your beliefs and train to SchH (just one example) because there is no non-sport test for PPDs? Or do you say screw it all and just train how you believe is honestly the best? Or do you try some compromise and have a dog that will never be a high-points dog but that you feel will offer your clients some degree of protection yet still allow them use of sports decoys and events to work their dog and somehow prove that your training is not a backyard-training type of scam?

Not saying I have the answers. I can definitely see both sides though (e.g. the pragmatic nature of having a dog that can act as a body guard in the off-chance you a/o a family member becomes a victim of a robbery/mugging/rape/kidnapping/attack/etc. vs. the lack of an organized test and abundance of people who will no doubt take your money for an untested "real" dog).

-Cheers


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## Molly Graf

Sure, I know a black hairy looking dog who is growing very fast, named Glok - 

molly


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## Lee H Sternberg

Howard Gaines III said:


> Lee you are so full of yourself, you know that a handgun round might average $1.00 per shot. You're just too cheap to spend the money. LOL


That too!\\/


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## Lars Vallin

David 
I agree that control is everything. If it's a ppd or a psd does nor make a difference. A dog that does not have absolute rock solid obedience is a liability on 4 legs.


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