# Protection dogs....



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what are they? what is required from them? what type of training is required of them?

lots of discussions always flying around about it...from all sides..

I am on a few message boards, this topic is always all over the place.

For me it is a very individual thing. 

ALL biting sports have a Protection phase...what does that mean? why is it called a protection phase?

All kinds of breeders of dogs say that thier dogs will protect the family, that they are "protective" dogs, almost all breeders of traditional type working dogs, always list protection or personal protection as one of the roles that their dogs can fill, you always see people saying that their dogs can make good sport dogs, make good protection dogs, as well as police and other real world working dogs performing various functions.

Some people say offbreeds are no good for protection...

what is a protection dog?

Is lots of training required for a protection dog? 
Does a protection dog have to be good with strange kids, and be social to people outside of the family?

What makes a dog a protection dog? is it just as simple as the owners of the dog get a piece of mind, and feel safer?

I am not sure why there is such a stigma about it, people do lots of things to add to their own protection..

for some people it is wearing a whistle, for others it is carrying mace or a stun gun, for some it is personal defense training, martial arts, being aware of thier surroundings, conducting thier lives in a security minded way...locking thier doors, surveying their surroundings, having alarm systems, camera systems, neighborhood watch, outting up fences, getting good locks, using security bars on the windows, owning guns, carrying knives, etc. etc.

people live their lives with considerations given to security and protection of themselves and their families in all manners of degrees, some people are much more into the mindset than others, some are obsessed, others are oblivious, and everything in between.

for me it is pretty simple, a protection dog to me is a dog that will bite someone for real that is a threat to me or my home or whatever else I want the dog to protect. It is more than an alert dog. It is a dog that has a strong enough character to stand up to a person and attack them, even if that person is not scared of the dog, or tries to fight the dog. When looking at protection dogs, that is about as variable as any other aspect of what people do to "protect" themselves and give themselves piece of mind..it varies alot depending on the people, the dynamics of the lives they lead, the areas they live in, etc etc...

I like to look at in comparison to somone getting a gun for protection. That is a highly variable thing. Do they take tactical classes for using the gun? do they have to? do they carry thier gun with them everywhere they go? do they feel the need to do so? how do they store or keep thier guns? are they loaded? are rounds in the receivers, ready to go? is the gun locked in a safe? is it in the nightstand drawer? is it under their pillow?

I find it very humorous most of the time internally when discussions of protection dogs come up, discussions of breeds, and what is considered legit, or neccessary, or what is expected of the dog. People are all different, they have different approaches to how they protect themselves, and what they are comfortable with, and what works for them.

Take guns...I used to shoot with my father all the time. I had a CCW at various times in my life. If someone buys a gun, some people are happy buying guns of various types and various calibers. The reality for most people is that they will never have to use it, if I was buying a gun for protection, I would want it to function, meaning I pull the trigger and a bullet comes out, and if it is a semi auto gun, I would expect the next bullet to load into the chamber, if it is a revolver, I would expect that the cylinder would rotate, allowing the next bullet to be fired...

people are variable in what they do about preparing themselves.

I have shot enough guns to know how to properly shoot and maintain one, I am aware of the proper ways to safely handle a gun. I have owned various types of guns, always stock guns off the shelf, no modifications, no special gunsmithing done to them. No special training done.

Lets say I want a gun for protection, i go out and get a little AMT .380 pocket gun, that holds 5 rounds, with a 2.5 inch barrel, and buy some decent ammo. 

Is that gun a good gun for protection? Will I be able to use it to protect my family? I say sure.. am I wrong? do I need a better gun, one that might be more reliable with all manners of bullet types, or is it fine if I find a good round that the gun likes and is reliable? do I need more training? who can say for sure...it all boils down to if I have my gun with me, when a situation arises, and I need to use it, can I use it effectively? It is more about the mindset, I personally feel I would have no issues shooting a person that entered my home, or was raping my gf or whatever. The most important thing to me is the gun will work, and that I will be able to shoot someone, be mentally prepared to do so, and be able to do it without my gun being taken from me.

Is that enough to satisfy what I need to have and do to consider myself owning a gun for protection? sure it is...for me...other people that are more security minded, and more interested in guns might think I was crazy for thinking that.

I like to shoot, but I am not a big gun nut, like lots of people are, so my opinions on what is acceptable in the areas of hardware and training is an individual thing..which may be vastly different than what others think.

If a guy breaks into my home in the middle of the night, and I shoot him dead as he is entering my bedroom, or I shoot him dead in the hallway, while he is entering the kids room, was I wrong in my choices in regards to being prepared? was it in-effective for what I needed? 

But I also like to have what I consider a good protection dog around as well, for me, the most important thing is the dogs character, and whether the dog will be effective or not for me and how I choose to use it, if I have to. I am kind of a protection dog nut, as opposed to being a gun nut. I realize the limitations of a dog, and all the variables surrounding owning a dog for protection.

My idea of a protection dog, may vary greatly from someone elses...just as my ideas on owning a gun for protection does. To me I want a dog that I am reasonably sure will forcefully engage a person, whether that means I am allowing the dog to, or commanding him to. The amount of training I would require for me personally might vary from others, the various scenarios and tactical training I might do, might be different than others. the amount of control needed, the situations I put the dog in will vary, the sociability may vary as well..

Everyone should agree that a good dog is a decent form of protection for certain situations, and will be useless in others. it is just one part of what people do to get some piece of mind, and attempt to be prepared to protect them, their home, their family, whatever...

What I find humorous is this, people on all sides of the PP dog debate seem to want to define to me what my protection dog must be like, what it must do...some hardcore pp dog people look at what I do, and call it 'sport protection" training, that the dog will not be effective, cause I do prey work, use equipment, I train targets, I like a good bite...this stems from my liking to train my dog, and enjoy doing so, and like to keep the dog and the decoys safe in training...is a good bite necessary? maybe maybe not, is targeting necessary? maybe, maybe not. is it necessary to make up all kinds of wild scenarios and train for them, maybe..maybe not.. it all boils down to personal choices.

some other people think the dog should be super social in all situations and be safe around little kids, and that I need to have major offleash control and great outs and calloffs, and the dog should never react on its own, etc. etc...is any of this necessary for me to own what I might consider a dog for protection? maybe, maybe not...

some people keep guns in their house, some people keep them loaded, some people keep them stashed all over, in the couch, under a magazine on the table, behind the door, under their pillow, some people keep guns on thier person at all times. other people have guns and keep them locked up in gunsafes, unloaded, with trigger locks on them......who is right, who is wrong? who can say...it is all variable. 

point is this...if someone breaks into my home and my dog attacks them and fights them, or someone breaks into my home and I shoot them effectively, or both things happen. that is the main requirement..all of the other variables are just that, variables...if I feel safe calling my dog a protection dog, and like to train for certain things, or in a certain way, that is what I do...so I am not really sure why some people place all kinds of requirements on what a PP dog is, like thier have to be some sort of standards, on either side of the spectrum...to me it is all personal, I have what I like my standards to be, and others will have their own standards. It is all matter of opinion, just like owning a gun for protection. It is variable on what type of training is done, what situations it will be effective for, and how you fit it into your daily life. for others to try to define what is acceptable or desirable for me, is kind of kooky...all that matters to me is that I keep the wrong people from being attacked or bitten by my dog, for reasons of liability, and public safety, and that I have a dog of the type of character that I feel will do what I need the dog to do, and the training put into the dog to be able to reasonably expect the dog to perform in whatever situations it might be used for..which may be far different than what others want or need.

how that all works out if put into action, is always a big unknown..as is any other type of defensive or protection minded tactics, or tools used...you never know what is going to work for sure. life is variable..

as far as dogs go, for me personally it boils down to character, and whatever training exposure the dog needs, which in reality may be very little, or may be very intensive, depending on the situations I choose to put the do into and the dog itself..the most important thing is that the dog is physically and mentally able to engage a person, a strong determined person, that may not be scared off by a dog barking a them, and fight them with force, to me. that is the one thing that is not variable in my definition of a protection dog. just as I would expect my little .380 to shoot a bullet if I chose to use it, and load the next one if needed, the rest is all variable.

some guys think if you train in a sporty way, that the dogs wont react for real. others think if they do sport work only that the dogs will still react in a real situation..are they right, are they wrong? who can say..the character of the dog is a huge factor..dogs are all different..

if some guy tries to rob me, and I put the dog on him, or someone breaks in and the dog attacks him, did the dog do its job? is it a protection dog? what if the dog doesnt have an out trained, what if it has no call off, what if I never did any crazy scenarios, and used bite equipment and prey training, and did not do tons of civil work in training, what if the dog was not friendly or trustable around small kids in the park, what if it is a social dog and loves kids, what if he outs perfectly, and calls off perfectly? do any of it matter? sure sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. just as keeping a gun for protection is a variable thing, so is it with a dog. what matters is that the dog and gun are handled responsibly to keep innocent people reasonably safe, and that they also will work to keep the owners reasonably safe...what is reasonable can vary greatly depending on who you talk to...

some people want dogs that will tear people apart and attack with everything they have, no rules. some people want a dog that does bitework as a hobby, some people want a gun, some people want certain types of guns, some people want to get all kinds of training to use either, others like to go shoot their guns all the time, others may not shoot nearly as much, or just shoot a few times a year at the range. 

Ill stop rambling here, but I do find it humorous at times, when people try to define what a protection dog HAS to be, or what it HAS to do...everyone is different...and also do not really understand why some people who train dogs in protection, in sport, can also be so against training a dog for protection outside of sport....


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## Ralph Tough (Jun 3, 2012)

Hey joby, you have made a number of excellent points! to consider.
Cheers Ralph


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Oh sheesh, so so so so much there Joby. 

I think to sum it all up for me though is: it depends. I think the only thing a protection dog HAS to do is be a deterrent. After that, being able to back up that deterrent with a bite is a close second. From there IMO we get into the stuff that's nice to have, targeting, outs, call off, social, off leash etc. 

In the end, different strokes for different folks. Personally, I want my dog to more than just bite in a personal protection scenario, I want the out, the call off, a guard etc. I think it looks better in court that the dog is trained beyond a basic level, providing the dog stuck to it's training and didn't do something wild.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good post!
I also believe it's an individual thing/need. 
Definitions are as mixed up as anything else we've all discussed. Some think a dog that will do nothing more then alert is a "protection" dog. The other end of the spectrum want a full blown man killer.
I'm happy with my two that will definitely alert. All I need from there is time to lock and load......and that's usually pretty well covered on any given day. 
Do I call my dogs "protection dogs? Nope, just dogs! 
I do believe that if an individual REALLY needs a protection dog then a firearm should be a required part of that need.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As to training
Any bite trained dog, sport or otherwise, would be good to have a simple CGC. I know, some think it's a lame title but the law recognizes the AKC and the CGC could go a long way in proving your efforts to have a "safe" dog in a court room.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

The dog should suit whatever need the owner/family has at the time. No one else should or needs to dictate how that role is to be defined.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Is there really such a thing? Or is it what think it is?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Is there really such a thing? Or is it what think it is?



One of those things I guess we hope to never have to find out. I think most would be terribly disappointed. :grin:


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I think many PPD people are still in the dark about what a good dog is. Just like some PSD folks were a few years back...They have such tunnel vision or are scared to be considered a fraud that they speak badly of the sport..Not realizing that it is the dog that dictates what it can or cannot do effectively...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> One of those things I guess we hope to never have to find out. I think most would be terribly disappointed. :grin:


And if someone did, I mean actually found out and wasn't disappointed in the outcome would you have a response to that too? If so, what would it be?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

thanks for taking the time to post this Joby
...btw, your post was not so long; only took me 4:30 to read it based on my stopwatch and i read slow 

i know we differ a lot; mostly for me it is when the family types try and describe the "type" of PPD they would like to have, but seem to be describing the type of PPD dog you prefer in your lifestyle, which i feel would probably not fit safely in a family setting

the decision probably also has a lot has to do with how people assess the threats they may face in daily lives, and in most cases i would recommend something other than a protection dog to keep their people and property safe. dogs are much harder to lock 'n load and use effectively than guns  ... a proper weapon in trained hands is probably much more effective personal security and last line of defense than a whole PACK of PPD's 

i also think it is easier to demonstrate "PP" in a sport than it would be to train it effectively to perform as required in a family setting, so i sure hope those sports continue to evolve and get better; especially as a way to demonstrate PSD related work in a sport environment

lastly i think you are much better prepared to talk about the pros/cons than other people who have not actually worked and trained on this type of dog work, just like i don't feel i have to have "done it" to point out some of the problems i see when discussing PPD training with more typical family people who would probably need a different type dog than one that would fit your lifestyle. in the latter case, i have never seen videos of any type for this training, no matter how the "basic" PPD dog is defined

.... so i guess for me, the environment it protects and lives in is a major training hurdle in any PPD training...as in : the more "family oriented", the harder to train ...

will comment on some specific points later


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Let's face it, in today's litigous society whether you use a dog or a firearm for self preservation you better have a good attorney and lot's of money even if all applicable state laws were followed...just my 25cents.

My boy, is a very good alerter. He sounds and looks as if he wants to kill you as you come to the door and he tries to go through it. His job is only to alert me...it is then my responsibility to defend my home as the law allows me...calling 911 first, if possible!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Now, now Doug don't go inviting common sense into this discussion. I understand why Joby brought it up but the discussion always revolves around the same points - nothing new ever seems to come of it.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

(was tempted to cut and paste from the cane corso thread)



What is legitimate does not change and is not subjective. If someone had a real desire or need for a dog that would protect them, they should never be directed to an AKC GSD over a working line GSD.

If someone has a need/desire for a gun to protect them self they should never be directed to a taurus judge over a glock or S&W M&P.


If you want a dog or gun (etc) for the sake of novelty then go for it and have fun, but it will be inferior and you will be less safe.


(of course someone may have seen an example were an AKC dog was awesome, but thats irrelevant)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you must live in the states Doug 

i like your approach and i have always said a dog who is impressive and has a nice alert bark is about all that most families would probably need in a "PPD"

family protection does require a lot of common sense to override paranoia whether you consider the canine aspect or not

i understand why some people want to consider PPD training...it's a great concept that is a big part of the human/dog relationship
- i just don't understand the training steps to get there 

but of course it doesn't really matter 
... even in a discussion, people's attitudes rarely change
...it's their dog // their way 

i still like discussing this issue mainly because it gets to the core of how much control a person has over their dog, and to me that is the basic definition of ANY dog training, and that's one reason i'm here


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> I think many PPD people are still in the dark about what a good dog is. Just like some PSD folks were a few years back...They have such tunnel vision or are scared to be considered a fraud that they speak badly of the sport..Not realizing that it is the dog that dictates what it can or cannot do effectively...


+1


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nichole, I accidentally hit edit and put this on your post. I'll change that! :wink:


Nichole said
And if someone did, I mean actually found out and wasn't disappointed in the outcome would you have a response to that too? If so, what would it be?


I'd be the first to offer them my congrats! 
What Will said in the above post about "many" people I would change to "most". There are a few in this area that think they are PPD trainers but it's nothing more then the classic "beat em till they bite training". 
I completely understand the need to "bring out" the defense on some dogs but all that is doing is creating a fear biter in many if not most of the dogs. 
I "believe" this is what Will's comment about being in the dark about what a good dog is. JMHO of course!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> I think many PPD people are still in the dark about what a good dog is. Just like some PSD folks were a few years back...They have such tunnel vision or are scared to be considered a fraud that they speak badly of the sport..Not realizing that it is the dog that dictates what it can or cannot do effectively...


Presumably you mean the genetics of the dog, not the dog itself as in making its own decisions in a PSD context. We just had this disucssion and it seems to me that everyone universally agreed that the dog did not and should not make those decisions. That's why I am asking for clarification.

Genetics are a given. At least in my mind. That aside, if a barking dog makes people feel safer and offers "protection" then this is the picture of what a protection dog is to someone, for another that might be one that offers forwardly aggressive tendencies without actually engaging, for another it might be a dog that engages with any act of forward aggression, etc. Who TF cares?

I think people give way too much thought to this topic. The average person is unlikely capable of finding an apt specimen, suitable training, or even the right set of circumstances to ever find out if the dog is real. Everyone here must realize that but even if they do some seem ignore that fact.

Maybe it's just me but I don't care enough about what other people do to object to the idea of whether or not PPDs actually exist, are practical, etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yes! Genetics!
I think any dog can be "trained" to look impressive, even bite but heavy stress will bring out the "real" dog. Bringing out a reason to defend itself (fear biter) is what most can't/don't see. A dog like that has been taught that running/turning their back will get more punishment. If they figure that out they can escape the "pressure" by running, they will.

"Objecting" is what we do here. :lol:


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

yes genetics and ability of the modern dog....not the cognitive process of the superior dog of yore


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

What I want in a PP dog is a dog that will alert me to things I need to be aware of (this can be body posture as well as or instead of barking) and that will follow up that alert with a bite if necessary. I also want a dog that is neutral to people and is under control in public. I don't even mind have a dog that is ultimately social but understands that he needs to be released by me in order to interact with someone else. I know some people with PP dogs that like dogs to be "full of hatred" and I honestly don't get that. I don't see how my dog can protect me if he's too much of a liability or a nutcase to take out in public or to trust off lead.

I agree that the dog's genetics and individual character has A LOT to do with whether or not that dog can be my kind of PP dog. It's no secret that both of my ABs had a PP type foundation put on them with the end goal being that I would dogs capable of sport that would also protect me if necessary off of the field. I will say that I only consider one of my dogs to be a protection dog and that's because he has already proven it to me. The other could be capable, but I don't like to count my chickens before they hatch.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Yes! Genetics!
> I think any dog can be "trained" to look impressive, even bite but heavy stress will bring out the "real" dog. Bringing out a reason to defend itself (fear biter) is what most can't/don't see. A dog like that has been taught that running/turning their back will get more punishment. If they figure that out they can escape the "pressure" by running, they will.
> 
> "Objecting" is what we do here. :lol:


OK Bob, training comes in all different shapes and sizes. We can all agree upon that. Let's say Will retires his PSD and I get it and call it a PPD. Who knows or cares why I label the dog as such, but let's say I do. Do you scoff at this notion despite the fact that this same dog was utilized in a near similar capacity while as a PSD? If not, then what makes that different in your mind?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> yes genetics and ability of the modern dog....not the cognitive process of the superior dog of yore


 
I am glad I wasn't drinking. How funny!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I am glad I wasn't drinking. How funny!!!


You must be one of those mean fellers when yer drinkin' eh? ha ha, just kidding. It's the way you wrote that which made it sound funny. Like when you drink you don't have a sense of humor.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> You must be one of those mean fellers when yer drinkin' eh? ha ha, just kidding. It's the way you wrote that which made it sound funny. Like when you drink you don't have a sense of humor.


 
I was thinking I would have snorted said liquid onto my keyboard, but I get your point!!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> OK Bob, training comes in all different shapes and sizes. We can all agree upon that. Let's say Will retires his PSD and I get it and call it a PPD. Who knows or cares why I label the dog as such, but let's say I do. Do you scoff at this notion despite the fact that this same dog was utilized in a near similar capacity while as a PSD? If not, then what makes that different in your mind?


 
Not sure about Bob, but what makes a difference to me is a simple standard. You have a dog and handler who certified together through some organziation that has credibility for doing a job/application is was designed to do. (PSD & Handler)

Now take your average citizen and dog, there is nothing that certifies or draws credibility, then you have what you see all over the internet and backyard BS that brings this all full circle. Whenever PPD are talked about there is so many variations and things out there and theories of what is should be, how can the dog, handler/owner or anyone be taken seriously.

Now on the other hand if Will retires his dog who is certified to do his job on the street and currently a LE officer, I STILL do not think that makes a PPD. A dog who will alert, bite, etc, but PPD? Where are the guidelines, rules.....There are so many legalities when talking PPD. Regardless of property, signs, training etc, its you ass on the line and most of the time, it doesn't go in your favor. Thats why a barking dog does more than anything else. 

Just my perspective on it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> .... not the cognitive process of the superior dog of yore


 ..... made me snort-laugh; I get it about drinking liquid and reading that. :lol: :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have read the responses..I agree with everyone...


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

The basic groups protection dogs can be lumped into are:
1. Alarm dog
2. Threat dog
3. Man stopper


Alison Grubb said:


> I know some people with PP dogs that like dogs to be "full of hatred" and I honestly don't get that. I don't see how my dog can protect me if he's too much of a liability or a nutcase to take out in public or to trust off lead.


Some people foresee being in a situation requiring a dog that can't be shut down, at least not by normal standards, multiples assailants, objects thrown at it, rough stuff nothing like you'd want to do in training. It's very very difficult to find such a hard dog that can still fit into a family environment or can be taken out in public in a normal way. So you have to give up in some area to gain in another.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

My biggest issue is trying to classify what kind of "real protection" is really needed for my clients, of course everyone wants a killer but the problem remains can they handle that type of dog? Usually not, so I also show people how to use what I call passive protection (threat) & that's using psychology towards the would aggressor. For example I tell people teach bark on command, down at the door standing behind the door so that when it opens what they see first is the dog and it can be any dog. If you don't like whose there just say "watch them" to the dog and people have a tendency to want to leave, that's for solicitors, religious groups, relatives (in-laws) etc. I teach stand again saying the same if someone is being a jerk, my favorite is at bank walk up I have my dog on a down as we're back to back. People ask if the can use the empty tellers next to me, I always say sure theyre empty! That's just some of that. But I've trained for Jewlry stores & other vulnerable situations. Most of the time people want more than they can manage. Like I don't want a .22 I need a .44 mag so I can kill anyone behind them and the neighbors. I actually have trained numerous dogs for family law attorneys, good old domestic violence threats. I use to loan dogs in battered wife situations where the dog was trained to respond to threat i.e. sound of voice etc. didnt have to say a word just don't try spanking the kids! [-X so I see a bigger picture when it comes to PPD. This is just my experience not rocket science just figuring out what is really needed is sometimes tough. JMHO


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> The basic groups protection dogs can be lumped into are:
> 1. Alarm dog
> 2. Threat dog
> 3. Man stopper
> ...


I don't see that expectation as automatically ruling out a strong and stable dog. When I read "full of hatred" I read instability or an abnormally low defense threshold. Neither of which guarantees that said dog will not run.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have read the recent posts and I still agree with everyone


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I am God. 













Keep reading Joby.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> OK Bob, training comes in all different shapes and sizes. We can all agree upon that. Let's say Will retires his PSD and I get it and call it a PPD. Who knows or cares why I label the dog as such, but let's say I do. Do you scoff at this notion despite the fact that this same dog was utilized in a near similar capacity while as a PSD? If not, then what makes that different in your mind?


Then you very well may have a great dog that would protect you. To me the term PPD alone doesn't make any statements on training or character/temperament of the individual dog. It would be like folks expecting a serious dog just because it has a Sch III title or a PSA dog to protect you simply because it has gone through the program and titled. 
I like titles myself. It's fun getting them but they address the training more then the true character of the dog.
Getting a retired dog of Will's tells me more about what's already expected of the dog, it's training and capabilities as to what it's already done in the real world. 
Can I get on that waiting list for Will's dog? I'd call it an executive protection dog if that would put me up higher on the list. Hell, I'd call it a Persian cat if that works. :grin: :wink:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> The basic groups protection dogs can be lumped into are:
> 1. Alarm dog
> 2. Threat dog
> 3. Man stopperSome people foresee being in a situation requiring a dog that can't be shut down, at least not by normal standards, multiples assailants, objects thrown at it, rough stuff nothing like you'd want to do in training. It's very very difficult to find such a hard dog that can still fit into a family environment or can be taken out in public in a normal way. So you have to give up in some area to gain in another.


Buy a gun. Buy lots of bullets. Get OC spray, and ASP, and a radio, and a cool car with lights. Oh, wait. Just become a cop.....they'll buy it all for you.

When I get attacked by several ninja assasins, I'll just fight it out the best I can.

Dogs are NOT the end all be all you portray them as either as Dan or Emilio. Fun to war game it, but if you are so bad of a person everyone wants to kill you. Change your name and go do peace corps work until everyone forgets....


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Whenever there is a thread like this it really makes me wonder where the hell you people live and what do you do that you are in constant fear of being attacked and need a dog to protect you. If you are that afraid take the money you spend on the dog and just freaking move.

I have way to much time, training, and money in my dog to ever consider me putting him in a situation where something could go wrong or he could get seriously hurt. I don't have a dog to prove ny manhood. So many times I see the PPD dog as a my junk is bigger contest. I am capable of protecting myself and more importantly, smart enough to not put myself in a situation where I would need to.

There is also liability that comes with your dog biting someone, justified or not. If we are talking about the average joe client, no one needs or is typically capable of handling anything more than a dog that looks intimidating and will bark on command. If that doesn't put your mind at ease, buy a gun and get CCL. 

When it comes to training and trainers, there is a very clear hierarchy, sport, PSD,then PPD. Not saying there aren't acceptions to this or that some PSD trainers like Will have put the time in to better their training skills, but that is a rarity.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Anyone that doesnt have a dog, gun, and burglar alarm isnt taking their safety seriously. The dog terms can be debated, but if you dont have one that is at least an alarm dog and deterrent (black lab maybe), you are missing a piece of the puzzle.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> Whenever there is a thread like this it really makes me wonder where the hell you people live and what do you do that you are in constant fear of being attacked and need a dog to protect you. If you are that afraid take the money you spend on the dog and just freaking move.


Well the world is a dangerous place there are threats everywhere if people are paying attention. It's not whether you are paranoid or not, it's whether you are paranoid enough. \\/

That being said, everyone's situation is a little bit different. For me, my biggest fear as a police officer, is that someone I've dealt with comes to my house when I'm not there but my wife and kids are. The hope is that the dog can keep the guy busy long enough for my wife to get into the gun safe. 



Joby Becker said:


> I have read the recent posts and I still agree with everyone


and come on Joby, argue with someone!:-x


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> Buy a gun. Buy lots of bullets. Get OC spray, and ASP, and a radio, and a cool car with lights. Oh, wait. Just become a cop.....they'll buy it all for you.
> 
> When I get attacked by several ninja assasins, I'll just fight it out the best I can.
> 
> Dogs are NOT the end all be all you portray them as either as Dan or Emilio. Fun to war game it, but if you are so bad of a person everyone wants to kill you. Change your name and go do peace corps work until everyone forgets....


In some countries laws are different and people can't easily obtain firearms, or can't have them at all. A gun will not on its own shoot an intruder in your home or alert you to his presnece when you're sleeping. Very strange post coming from supposedly a cop. A cop that's been at his job for any length of time knows the kind of f**k'ed up things that happen every day and can happen to anyone without them being "so bad". Perhaps K9 are only called in and used in situations where a dog is required, so they're not aware of what regular cops see every day. That could explain your ignorant POV.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> The dog should suit whatever need the owner/family has at the time. No one else should or needs to dictate how that role is to be defined.


Amen


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> In some countries laws are different and people can't easily obtain firearms, or can't have them at all. A gun will not on its own shoot an intruder in your home or alert you to his presnece when you're sleeping. Very strange post coming from supposedly a cop. A cop that's been at his job for any length of time knows the kind of f**k'ed up things that happen every day and can happen to anyone without them being "so bad". Perhaps K9 are only called in and used in situations where a dog is required, so they're not aware of what regular cops see every day. That could explain your ignorant POV.


Dan. are you emilio the banned user with the 3-4 month old rottie doing a bark and hold on someone at your door naturally?

Oh, and as important as it is to have a good dog, Dan/Emilio. It's also important to be realistic and have a plan. The mindset of a warrior. The desire to "stay in the fight". I don't think the dog exsist that you are looking for. Every home has closets and doors, and bad people have bite equipment. I bet you don't even have a hard room. Will your dog protect you??


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> The dog should suit whatever need the owner/family has at the time. No one else should or needs to dictate how that role is to be defined.


 


Nicole Stark said:


> The dog should suit whatever need the owner/family has at the time. No one else should or needs to dictate how that role is to be defined.


Amen

We all live in various areas of the globe. My area "Switzerland" is probably on the lower scale of crime. However, it can happen here, too. I find one needs to assess one's security without a dog for protection.

Caution is necessary, especially at nighttime. I feel relatively secure with my "grumpy old GSD" who vets all and sundry when we are out walking in the dark early morning or evening. Buster is only opposed to strangers who approach us. However, he is well under conrol and often ignores passers-by.

Darach, who only lived to be 6 years' old, loved kids first, and adults second, but would not endure a "clinch" from a "dog lover" or a "reproach" from our neighbours when we sat out on our terrace and they scolded him.

Maybe I am naive to place my security on the actions of my dog but I unfortunately do not know any better!!


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Good discussion! We live in a "safe" city nice "destination" neighborhood so lots of people on the street.. My work is here so we are here too. Two weeks ago, out on the night walk, we are infer the lights my girlfriend in front with the boy. Me in back with the girl. Across the


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

I moved to one of these safe towns that people talk about. I found that I couldn't handle the unicorns eating my bushes and the elves shitting on my front porch. So I moved back even though I had to pay more in property taxes.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I have 2 kinds of dogs. One that runs the yard. He barks and meets you at tthe gate with hackles up. A guy has to know dogs or at least that dog or he wont bother coming in the yard.
My other dog will bite you. He has to be in a dog run for liability. He may not bite you if you are good with dogs but he keeps even my dad out.
I got in a fight with a friend of mine one day. He said your dog cant stop me from killing you.... Nope but he would bark at you at the gate. I would look out the window and see you kill my dog. I would then get my gun and meet you at the front door, where we could settle the problem.
On the other hand if the neighbor walks in the yard with the other dog and he bites them.. that is no good either.
The best personal protection is dont be in a situation you need protection. If you have real bad people after you maybe you should rethink your lifestyle. 
That being said a person wouldnt fair well if they came here uninvited. Not because of the dogs either.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Good discussion! We live in a "safe" city nice "destination" neighborhood so lots of people on the street.. My work is here so we are here too. Two weeks ago, out on the night walk, we are infer the lights my girlfriend in front with the boy. Me in back with the girl. Across the


Sorry for partial post. - complete post below. 


Good discussion! We live in a "safe" city nice "destination" neighborhood so lots of people on the street. But a lot of homeless too (like all places now) and I don't think maybe they are all harmless. My work is here so we are here too. 

Two weeks ago, out on the night walk, we are under the lights, my girlfriend in front with the boy. Me in back with the girl. Normally no problem, we pass people, dogs might swing head around to watch them go by but generally no reaction unless its a girls night out and they all scream "cute dogs" in high voices (If we ever get attacked by a bachelorette party were are screwed..)

This night, From across street - parallel with us but coming across the path we take, comes nut. Dogs saw early and alerted, I saw just after them, girlfriend never saw. Guy was doped up (I used to work in clubs when I was young, I know). 

Dogs have only a year of ScH OB training as we learn how to teach them OB so maybe not so good OB yet. Boy has only done bite a couple of times. 

As soon as dogs alert (serious stance, very impressive) I give the command to bark and they did. Probably the only thing I did right. Good show but nut was "out there", kept coming at us, then tried hand out to dog "nice doggie". Really strange situation. I thought he would get more violent, I never expected change in tactic. In the end, they would not let him close and he gave up. They stayed on alert and barking until he was a distance away and we went in other direction. 

So dogs did great I think. Just what they should do. They saw before us and made nut think. But what if nut was a little more high or motivated? What happen then? What happens if I am on a business trip and girlfriend is walking dogs alone?

A few more thought. You ask - Dogs kept guy away so why didn't you run? At the time you make a decision without clear head. What's going on, are there more people, where are they, etc, etc.? Military guys get tactical train so they learn how to react. We have nothing so I have no idea how I will react until I react. I would like to say I will do all the right things but probably no. What about carry a gun. Sure I like guns, I learn as a kid safety and skill and shoot sometimes but again I have no tactical training. My girlfriend learn in Russian high school too like everyone (yes she can shoot or break down AK so I try to be nice to her always) for defense of country. But maybe if I can't decide to stand or run on this night I shouldn't be holding a gun trying to decide what to do with it either! I would like to get CC permit but no use without some tactical training. (Anyway, guns are expensive habit and dogs get all the money!). 

So I guess for PPD question - We have "PPD" in some way already but maybe there is a next level for dogs before killer wolf on a chain. Where dog is a little more suspicious and serious when it is time to be serious. Where dog can back up show with bite if I think we have no choice. 

But the discussion is good! It is good to think about real life. Maybe like cars, think about car first before buying because is better to get car for 80% of what you, do not 20% of what you imagine yourself doing.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> Oh, and as important as it is to have a good dog, Dan/Emilio. It's also important to be realistic and have a plan. The mindset of a warrior. The desire to "stay in the fight".


My name is Dan.

You certainly have the mindset of an internet warrior. No I don't have a desire to "stay in the fight".


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

I guess if you think you must start with dog that has good genetics you can also try this breed for PPD....

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...MmuE8g5PRLheNES8LtoQsVwMbNuQ3ZDztGHlujyvo4nZD

I am glad I don't live there.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> My name is Dan.
> 
> You certainly have the mindset of an internet warrior. No I don't have a desire to "stay in the fight".


 
AAAAhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. So Emilio was just a screen name. way to answer the question by not answering


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Might want to do some research Dan before you start throwing insults around. Knocking a guy is currently in Afganistan running a dog, lost track of how many tours he has done, and also trained more PSDs out of Tarheel than any of us could dream of is kinda silly.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Must be a nice job, so much free time.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> Must be a nice job, so much free time.


Dan, be nice to Dave or you are going to piss me off. 8-[ You are already starting to with your recent posts that were directed at him. I know Dave's an easy going guy but show a little more class will ya? Be mean to me instead. I do something at least once a day to deserve that. 

So here, I will give you something to start with. I have two dogs, one big, one little, both are ugly and neither works. I am not even sure why I post here sometimes. There that should give you something to work with. But if not I can look for something to disagree with you about. That seems to work pretty well.

Ok, ready? Fire away.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> Must be a nice job, so much free time.


Sorry your circumstances don't allow for good work hours along with finding the mythical beast you call a PPD as well as keeping your multiple screen names up. Good luck managing your time.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> I do something at least once a day to deserve that.
> 
> Ok, ready? Fire away.


Compulsion.... need to turn up the heat so it don't happen again! :-$

Hey Dave!!! Be safe Bro!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ah that just encourages me. I don't learn so well. Mmmmm hmmm.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ah that just encourages me. I don't learn so well. Mmmmm hmmm.


Just haven't had the right trainer!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

You might be right about that.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

So you don't misinterpret the lack of response. If you don't know, it means I don't see your posts.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dan Bowman said:


> So you don't misinterpret the lack of response. If you don't know, it means I don't see your posts.



"Dan" has only been on the WDF for a month and he's already tucked tail with five of us? I'm not even sure why I'm on ignore. I don't even remember any of Bowmans post until this thread. You do have to laugh at someone that has to announce he's ignoring you. And post a response explaining why he's not responding? ROTFLMAO


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## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Sheesh much ado about nothing. 

What difference in the great scheme of things does it matter how I classify/describe my dogs and or their training? 

Does applying the term PPD to a dog change anything about said dog?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> So you don't misinterpret the lack of response. If you don't know, it means I don't see your posts.



http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f13/session-13-a-10358/#post111427

You're kidding me...with this and the 4 month old guard with a rottie 20 years ago... these two guys lead similar lives for sure...wow.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBul...-sports-training-25372/index9.html#post363615

It is amazing.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

VERY interesting....hmmmmmmmmmm! 

:-k


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Skip made both lists, is that good or bad? ;-)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ignore the folks that call your hand on who you are or who you were? :-k :-k ...........:-o [-X


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

just the mention and talk of PPD and see the nonsense it brings....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Sorry for partial post. - complete post below.
> 
> 
> Good discussion! We live in a "safe" city nice "destination" neighborhood so lots of people on the street. But a lot of homeless too (like all places now) and I don't think maybe they are all harmless. My work is here so we are here too.
> ...


thanks for posting.

What was it about this encounter that was scary for you? just curious.

Sounds pretty innocent to me, but maybe I am just not seeing it how you saw it.

What I got out of it was there was a (possibly homeless) person that was walking across he street from you, that was high on drugs or drunk, and liked your dogs and was thinking he might like to pet them, so he approached you with the dogs.

Maybe it was more than that? not sure.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Just haven't had the right trainer!!!



I've found that motivational and reward based training works best with wimmins! 
Example
Tell her I need clean sox when she get home from work and I've played all day in the garage or all day with the dogs and her eyes narrow rapidly. 
I do a couple loads of laundry or empty the dishwasher and life is great. It's really easy, honest! :grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't know Bob, I've never understood some of the games women play with men. Stupid stuff like the silent treatment, implying rather than just saying what they want, creating fights when all that needed to take place was a discussion about something, etc.

Sometimes watching couples interact makes me uncomfortable with all that passive aggressive, weird communication that takes place between them.

I'm tired, and apparently rambling. The temp variance I experienced today was kinda wild, from -5 to 22 above and major gusts along the trail. 60 miles and I only saw two people along the way. It was a long, cold trip. Meanwhile, I see you guys were causing trouble here with brother Dan. ha ha. Oh wait, he did have me on that list as well...


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> thanks for posting.
> 
> What was it about this encounter that was scary for you? just curious.
> 
> ...


Nut was not homeless, clothes were wrong, but for sure whacked on something, not coherent. I mention homeless because many people in our area act like homeless are harmless. Not always true. Many are homeless for mental problems, sad but true, and when someone gets hurt everyone acts surprised. How did it happen? 

I was not scared so much but I knew this was a bad situation. Girlfriend was scared because she never saw him coming. My experience with people in clubs on this or that, tells me things can go from no problem to bad quickly. Someone with bad plan or someone on the wrong chemical does not always approach you in an obvious way, it's always unpredictable. This guy approaches in a crazy way, jerky, suspicious almost like a decoy!
The approach was to get to us for sure, why I do not know. I read his intent fine, confirmation is that he keeps keep trying to approach for maybe 2 minutes and changes tactic with two big dogs saying no to him. This is not normal. Normal person in normal state of mind say to himself ok I should go in the other direction.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Nut was not homeless, clothes were wrong, but for sure whacked on something, not coherent. I mention homeless because many people in our area act like homeless are harmless. Not always true. Many are homeless for mental problems, sad but true, and when someone gets hurt everyone acts surprised. How did it happen?
> 
> I was not scared so much but I knew this was a bad situation. Girlfriend was scared because she never saw him coming. My experience with people in clubs on this or that, tells me things can go from no problem to bad quickly. Someone with bad plan or someone on the wrong chemical does not always approach you in an obvious way, it's always unpredictable. This guy approaches in a crazy way, jerky, suspicious almost like a decoy!
> The approach was to get to us for sure, why I do not know. I read his intent fine, confirmation is that he keeps keep trying to approach for maybe 2 minutes and changes tactic with two big dogs saying no to him. This is not normal. Normal person in normal state of mind say to himself ok I should go in the other direction.


ok got it.

I guess after spending so much time in Chicago and South Bend, I have become somewhat desensitized to encounters with drugged up or drunk people on the streets.. but like you, I am always watchful...

You should see how mad and crazy some of them get when you decline to give them money... I got lots of stories about that kind of stuff

You might also probably be surprised how many people will approach an aggressive dog, drugged up or even sober..bad intentions or not....people are not very smart...
...

one time I had a crazy prositute try to claw her way into my van...she actually jumped onto the running board and tried to climb in my driver's window, after I slammed on my brakes when she jumped in front of me, and I almost ran her over, while I was going about 40 miles an hour...I tried to drive off, but had to bash her head against the door frame a couple times before she fell off and onto the street...


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

I worked the night clubs in D.C. 15 tears ago, mostly bar and some bounce, also here, some in NW too but I am not a fighter or very scary, always surrounded by bigger tougher guys, I try to talk them down first so am sensitive to my limitations. 

You make me think more about the situation and I think it was different because my girlfriend was scared, triggered a different reaction in me. Could this be the same for dogs? Do dogs react to fear of their handler different than their own fear?


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Is an LGD truly fearless or does it fight the wolf because its genetics say it must fight no matter what? Does the "responsibility" for the livestock override any fear?

http://youtu.be/hRGwiVsTaMo


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> I worked the night clubs in D.C. 15 tears ago, mostly bar and some bounce, also here, some in NW too but I am not a fighter or very scary, always surrounded by bigger tougher guys, I try to talk them down first so am sensitive to my limitations.
> 
> You make me think more about the situation and I think it was different because my girlfriend was scared, triggered a different reaction in me. Could this be the same for dogs? Do dogs react to fear of their handler different than their own fear?


I used to be driver/security for exotic dancers at private parties, full of crazy drunk or drugged up guys, of all nationalities often in homes and apartments...some of those parties got pretty hairy....I was in good shape back then, but, I sure am no tough guy either..lol...tough guys did not make it in that business...they usually ended up in the hospital sooner or later, and almost never made much money...hard to get tips when you rub people the wrong way...

nothing wrong with being careful...we are always sending signals that our dogs can pick up, intentional or otherwise...


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> ok got it.
> 
> I guess after spending so much time in Chicago and South Bend, I have become somewhat desensitized to encounters with drugged up or drunk people on the streets.. but like you, I am always watchful...
> 
> ...


Ok Chicago is tougher, you win! Next time try flowers and a nice dinner, it might be easier!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

can never be too careful....

that is the truth...


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Your example of guns dovetails with my opinion of how to define a “Protection Dog”.

IMO, in order for a gun to be defined as a “Gun” for protection, it must be able to reliably fire projectiles capable of penetrating a human deep enough to damage vital organs. 

A realistic looking toy that you brandish hoping to scare a murderer away with is not a “Protection Gun”.

An airsoft pistol whose projectiles won’t penetrate to a humans vitals is not a “Protection Gun”.

A homemade contraption or poorly constructed firearm that may or may not fire when you need it is not a “Protection Gun”.

How someone chooses to use the “Protection Gun” is dependent on both the person deploying the gun as well as the circumstances surrounding the deployment. If someone decides that simply brandishing the gun is enough for situation ‘A’ then that is their choice to make. If brandishing the gun defuses the situation, then obviously a realistic looking toy could have done the job. But if brandishing the gun isn’t enough you’re going to need to gun to fire. So, IMO the gun MUST be capable of reliably firing that vitals penetrating projectile or you can’t consider it a “Protection Gun”. 

People can choose what level of proficiency they feel is appropriate. Some may feel that “Here is how to load it. Don’t shoot yourself” is all the training they need. Other people may feel that a 2 week simulated combat course is barely scratching the surface. 

I think defining the “Protection Dog” follows the same thought process. The dog must be willing and capable of biting and fighting a human. 

A dog that looks and sounds scary serves a purpose, but it’s not a “Protection Dog”.

A dog that lacks the size or commitment to effectively fight a human is not a “Protection Dog”.

A dog that can’t be counted on to bite is not a “Protection Dog”

How someone chooses to use the “Protection Dog” is dependent on both the person deploying the dog as well as the circumstances. In situation ‘A’ barking and looking scary may be enough, but if that is all the dogs got in him, he’s not a “Protection Dog”. The dog MUST be willing and capable of engaging the bad guy when barking isn’t enough or it isn’t a “Protection Dog”.

People can choose what level of training and or socialization they want, but it doesn’t change the basic requirement that the dog be capable and willing to bite/fight.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

what type of genetics (character traits etc) does a personal protection dog require?

(ppd dog as in the literal meaning , if someone walks up to you and beats you to death in front of the dog and the dog dont join the fight, the dog has failed his job )


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm not going to comment on what a protection dog should be, what character of dog can be one, should they be social, blah blah blah ,what I am going to do is post this link and say I bet they wish they had one:

http://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/194203-reward-for-information-darwen.html


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

forget the dog needing to be social or good in a family environment etc, 
what does a PROTECTION dog need, civl? suspicious? terratorial? protective???? high defense drive? 
what do you need in a dog to work with?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

A stable temperament.


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## mark tanaka (Jun 5, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> A stable temperament.


+1

Tapd on my skyrocket


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I have read the recent posts and I still agree with everyone


 
Of course you do. You know everyones idea of a protection dog is different, just like your firearm example. Some require a certain brand, breed, caliber, breeding lines, tempermant, trainer, blah blah blah.

Me? I love lamp.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "what type of genetics (character traits etc) does a personal protection dog require?"

answer : "stable temperament" 
then a plus 1 ....
WTH ?????

that's laffable if that's all u can come up with 
.... that earth shaking one liner should be the answer for any dog on the planet ... from a 2kg lap warmer to 45kg man stopper ](*,)
.... reminds me of my wife's golden (RIP) ... VERY stable girl ... knew when to bark and knew when to STFU ... would tolerate the stupidest handling from all types of idiots, young and old ..... but certainly no ppd temperament in her ... could've staked her out and starved her for a week with daily beatings and she still wouldn't bite

if that's your best shot, it's time for me to agree with everything, just like Joby:razz::razz:

probably best to just flush this thread like most of the others and start another one next year
** but anyone who's actually TRAINING, TESTING or SELLING PPD's plse send me some links to your vids, and no music plse :razz:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

TBH Rick I can't be arsed to get into it, I could go on all day about drives and bollox like that but what I want to see more than anything else is a stable temperament. 
I don't want a dog with massive fight drive, if it's gonna kick off at everything, I don't want a dog with massive prey drive if it's just gonna take off after the paperboy.
I don't want a massively over dominant beast either that is more interested in who is boss than doing it's job. 
I don't wan't a dog that is so full of guard instinct that it is a pain in the arse, barking at helicopters and birds and old women walking past the house.
Equally I don't want a dog that flips through drives like a kids flick book comic and ends up ****in off down the road after the 'bad guy'
I want a dog with sufficient mix of drives at reasonable levels, which are stable and reliable, unchanging from situation to situation, predictable. 
One that can deal with any situation in any place at any time, doing it's job or just pissing about with the kids and a frisbe.
People go on about drives all the time because it makes them look clever, virtually no-one talks about courage any more, stable dogs are usually, in my experience fairly courageous, little if anything fazes them.
You must have a very sore head with all that wall banging you do.

Why would you stake a dog out and beat shit out of it to train it as a PPD?

By the way my old man trained a few goldens as PPD's and they were very good at their job, he certainly didn't tie them up and beat them with sticks.
I've been through all this before on other forums, can't be arsed with the arguing any more. 
I have lived with PPd's my whole life, this is my opinion, it's like my asshole, it's mine and I like it the way it is.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> TBH Rick I can't be arsed to get into it, I could go on all day about drives and bollox like that but what I want to see more than anything else is a stable temperament.
> I don't want a dog with massive fight drive, if it's gonna kick off at everything, I don't want a dog with massive prey drive if it's just gonna take off after the paperboy.
> I don't want a massively over dominant beast either that is more interested in who is boss than doing it's job.
> I don't wan't a dog that is so full of guard instinct that it is a pain in the arse, barking at helicopters and birds and old women walking past the house.
> ...


 

Do you expect your ppd to act on its own when needed, or only by command?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> plse send me some links to your vids, and no music plse :razz:


That's one of the best ways to ensure certain people won't watch them.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I agree... 

but what exactly is stable? is that another variable thing?

is stable in resting state? 
stable in bite work? 
stable=social?
stable= good with kids?
stable meaning under control when well trained?


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Stable. A dog that is not nervous and sketchy, but aware of what is going on. Watchful. Not looking for a fight, but willing to take one on when threatened. Trained to stop biting when told to and to stop before contact if commanded. So under enough control to redirect if necessary. Presence that exudes confidence to work as a deterrent.

I don’t care if the dog wants to be friends with everyone or not, just can’t eat them. He doesn’t need pretty obedience, but it doesn’t hurt. But if threatened, the dog can’t be tucking tail or they stop being a protection dog. Needs to bite and stay in the fight if it comes.

I guess those are my requirements in a dog that is around to protect me.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I think in the house an angry little (pug, jack russell, shitzu) for human detection, and a very powerful strong couch potato non breed specific that can bolt into action out of a dead sleep, appropriately, and never does otherwise. Also big dog must be willing to do an emergency down en route to the fight, so I have a clear shot... Small dog needs to latch on, become a hostage, keep the bad guy's attention and stay clear of the "A Zone" while I am shooting. In multiple attacker situations, I'd like the dogs to divide like tribbles in star trek and conduct themselves in a similar manner as written above, as I run to the flashing 240G holographic projected image flashing to upgrade my firepower...where is the spare ammo on this level...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think in the house an angry little (pug, jack russell, shitzu) for human detection, and a very powerful strong couch potato non breed specific that can bolt into action out of a dead sleep, appropriately, and never does otherwise. Also big dog must be willing to do an emergency down en route to the fight, so I have a clear shot... Small dog needs to latch on, become a hostage, keep the bad guy's attention and stay clear of the "A Zone" while I am shooting. In multiple attacker situations, I'd like the dogs to divide like tribbles in star trek and conduct themselves in a similar manner as written above, as I run to the flashing 240G holographic projected image flashing to upgrade my firepower...where is the spare ammo on this level...



I've always liked the idea of the evil little JRT to be first alert and then the GSD to take over from there.
Most of the terriers I've had would alert on someone a block away from the house while the larger dogs were still sleeping but that got them fired up. 
Perfect combo!


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

I had a Mini Schnauzer that would do that. Constantly. I think she got a kick out of watching the big boys freak out over nothing, calm down, then do it again.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> TBH Rick I can't be arsed to get into it, I could go on all day about drives and bollox like that but what I want to see more than anything else is a stable temperament.
> I don't want a dog with massive fight drive, if it's gonna kick off at everything, I don't want a dog with massive prey drive if it's just gonna take off after the paperboy.
> I don't want a massively over dominant beast either that is more interested in who is boss than doing it's job.
> I don't wan't a dog that is so full of guard instinct that it is a pain in the arse, barking at helicopters and birds and old women walking past the house.
> ...


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

like Brian said, do you expect the dog to act on its own or with command?

wouldnt a protection dog require,

civil aggression -> to bite strangers

dominance -> which i believe is required in a real situation for the dog to bite and also stay in the fight (seems to apply more to the traditional protection breeds such as german shepherd, malinois, rotty, doby)

terratorial aggression-> useful if the scenario occurs at ones home, helps alert to the threat in a timely manner and also for the dog to take action (if the idiot still desides to enter the property) before the threat reaches the victom being protected.

a suspicious dog -> a dog thats too open and friendly might be able to be manipulated by strangers/potential threats, especially if they start patting the dog and feeding it.

obviously courage

prey drive-> for early bite development 

i think a protection dog needs to be able to bite on command (especially when outside the property) , bite when thers an abvious threat without a command (when someone is physically hitting you etc) , bite without command within the property.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok I will get drawn in but just this once.



Michael Murphy said:


> *like Brian said, do you expect the dog to act on its own or with command?*
> 
> wouldnt a protection dog require,
> 
> ...




To the bolded big parts that are the OP's.
This is the part I didn't want to get into. A PPD should be able to recognise an attack on the handler/family member and engage for sure. This is the part where you get liability problems. 
The dog absolutely MUST be able to tell the difference and/or be trained to know the difference between kids mucking about, adults mucking about and a real assault.
To train this I would say the dog is acting under command/cue, the cue being the family member screaming, shouting, hitting whatever.

I see no point in a PPD being trained to bite intruders when there is no-one home. If someone is ignoreing a dog going nuts and giving the war face while they break in, they are going to kill your dog or steal it anyway.
A PPD is for protecting persons not stuff.
A guard dog/perimter dog is for protecting stuff totally different kettle of fish in my opinion with different drives/character.

What if a kid jumps the fence to get his football back?

I was taught to keep a sharp as a razor small dog to do the property guarding. Combined with a stable PPD this makes a very effective combination for the above problem.
Little dog goes for the intruder (and JRT will mostly take on anything and be the first there) intruder kicks the little dog PPD takes out intruder. I don't do it anymore though, above mentioned kid is just as likely to kick the little dog as a real perp.

At the end of the day stuff can be replaced even dogs that get stolen but a kids life cannot.
Again this is my asshole feel free to flame it, it makes no difference to me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> TBH Rick I can't be arsed to get into it, I could go on all day about drives and bollox like that but what I want to see more than anything else is a stable temperament.
> I don't want a dog with massive fight drive, if it's gonna kick off at everything, I don't want a dog with massive prey drive if it's just gonna take off after the paperboy.
> I don't want a massively over dominant beast either that is more interested in who is boss than doing it's job.
> I don't wan't a dog that is so full of guard instinct that it is a pain in the arse, barking at helicopters and birds and old women walking past the house.
> ...


Since I've already beat this dead horse, I'm going t do the +1 thingy.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Stable. A dog that is not nervous and sketchy, but aware of what is going on. Watchful. Not looking for a fight, but willing to take one on when threatened. *Trained to stop biting when told to and to stop before contact if commanded*. So under enough control to redirect if necessary. Presence that exudes confidence to work as a deterrent.
> 
> I don’t care if the dog wants to be friends with everyone or not,* just can’t eat them*. He doesn’t need pretty obedience, but it doesn’t hurt. But if threatened, the dog can’t be tucking tail or they stop being a protection dog. Needs to bite and stay in the fight if it comes.
> 
> I guess those are my requirements in a dog that is around to protect me.


ok. but "just cant eat them" is that not a training and control issue, just as the outing and call off is? of course the dog cant eat people, even if he would like to.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

On the original post's question I will add a PPD has GOT to be a 'game' animal.

Some people think that if they have a big snarling nasty looking and well trained biting machine that's good enough.
They forget there are people out there that simply are not afraid of dogs, in the slightest, whatever it is or is doing.
They will confront your dog and attack it, a well aimed kick to the ribs, bottom of the chin or whack with a 2x4, a bat or the worst a crowbar with a nail gripper/remover curl to it, will stop many dogs in their tracks if not turn them.

This gameness is obviously most pronounced in Bully breeds, my favourite being EBT's but a good staff or staff cross is full of it too.
I would prefer a good male EBT over any other dog as a PPD for the house. 
Their character/temperament generally holds the correct level of 'drives' for a PPD. Plus they naturally want to make friends so human socialisation is easy. The added bonus is if you are scrapping with a perp, an untrained one will often get involved in a fight just for the hell of it, you just better hope they hit the correct target  their bite pressure is unreal. Bumpy my current one is old now and will easily bite through a cows leg bone like she is eating a mars bar.
Their reactions are lightening quick as well, an EBT can go from sleeping to lunatic in a split second, chuck one in a barn full of rats and watch them go like a kids wind up toy, all the rats will be dead before you have finished your cigarette.
They are also murderous little gits to get hold of, just try catching one that has just stolen a chicken leg off the counter and you will see what I mean, even in an empty room with no hiding places, despite the fact that in my opinion they are the densest muscled dogs around, my last male weighed more than my dobes but was a good 5 " shorter, it was all muscle.
He literally went through my back door after a cat that stuck it's head through the cat flap in one charge, and it wasn't a glass door.

Their main disadvantages are they generally can't get the concept of 'out' which makes training difficult, they are often dog aggressive which is why I say 'house PPD' and very, very easy to steal.
All but a few I have met/owned have been usless guard dogs.

I'm getting carried away now, I'll stop there.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> On the original post's question I will add a PPD has GOT to be a 'game' animal.
> 
> Some people think that if they have a big snarling nasty looking and well trained biting machine that's good enough.
> They forget there are people out there that simply are not afraid of dogs, in the slightest, whatever it is or is doing.
> ...


so those goldens were "game"?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Not to the level of a bully or a good doberman but I suppose they must have been game enough.
They may have made up for it with dominance, a male golden can be a dominant pain in the arse.
They were my fathers dogs not mine, gameness is something I have come to seek in my dogs myself.
It's something I was just thinking about, can't ask him cos he's dead , can't ask him anything anymore which is why I started coming to forums, should have paid more attention I suppose and my mother wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about if I asked her


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> ok. but "just cant eat them" is that not a training and control issue, just as the outing and call off is?


 It could be, but I would rather it not be.... I'd rather a dog whose personality didn't require that that kind of self control be trained.

A call off and an out are both very clearly a trained behavior that needs to be tested in increasingly stressful and stimulating situations. But I like a dog that is not _looking_ for a fight, just willing to take one on if it comes. I like my men that way too 




Joby Becker said:


> of course the dog cant eat people, even if he would like to.


 Really? :-s  That was apparently my too subtle attempt at humor.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jessica Kromer said:


> It could be, but I would rather it not be.... I'd rather a dog whose personality didn't require that that kind of self control be trained.
> 
> A call off and an out are both very clearly a trained behavior that needs to be tested in increasingly stressful and stimulating situations. But I like a dog that is not _looking_ for a fight, just willing to take one on if it comes. I like my men that way too
> 
> ...


gotcha, I agree 

by stressful situations, what do you mean?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

That is they key question of it all.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> That is they key question of it all.


 
Does that mean something like......


To learn my teachings, I must first teach you how to learn.-The Sphinx in Mystery Men


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Does that mean something like......
> 
> 
> To learn my teachings, I must first teach you how to learn.-The Sphinx in Mystery Men



Yes, Grasshopper. Learn to learn you must.

He who questions training only trains himself at asking questions. 


Oh wait. Am I mixing up two wise teachers?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, Grasshopper. Learn to learn you must.
> 
> He who questions training only trains himself at asking questions.
> 
> ...


Nope. Same wise one. Wes Studi. Or Magua. Or the sphinx. All smart guys...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Nope. Same wise one. Wes Studi. Or Magua. Or the sphinx. All smart guys...



Yoda was in there. And Master Po. :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Does that mean something like......
> 
> 
> To learn my teachings, I must first teach you how to learn.-The Sphinx in Mystery Men


Ha ha Dave, and why am I wearing these watermelon on my feet?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> .... why am I wearing these watermelon on my feet?



"I don't remember telling you to do that."




:lol:


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## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

I really don't see what all the hub bub is about. 

Is the idea of training for PPD that much different from choosing one sport over another? 

While I choose to train towards the idea of a PPD it doesn't mean that I don't respect sport. I also find a considerable amount of value in sport and the various methods used in training. 

Although protection is the end goal I recognize the limitations of my given dogs due to their various differences in temperament. 

In the end it's a hobby, it's a fun way to enjoy the dogs.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Damn if there was ever a question about whether or not you are awesome you just answered it! Now, roll some lines from Clerks II into that and I will bow at your feet LOL.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> .... Now, roll some lines from Clerks II into that ....


Not me! The Internet is sacred. The Internet connection is for finding weird effed-up pictures ....




Oops. Perhaps we have gone astray.  



Joby Becker said:


> gotcha, I agree
> 
> by stressful situations, what do you mean?





Matt Vandart said:


> That is they key question of it all.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michael Joubert said:


> I really don't see what all the hub bub is about.
> 
> Is the idea of training for PPD that much different from choosing one sport over another?
> 
> ...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Amen brother and one ring to rule them all. Sorry Connie, going astray is just one of my many talents. Seriously though there's no hub bub on my end. I already said as much. Live and let live. Merry Christmas!


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> by stressful situations, what do you mean?


Probably the same thing you would mean.  Progressively more aggressive helper with increasing "presence" and pressure. More and more stimulating environmental stressors. Situations that show that dog that he can be successful when things seem to look bad.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

dam you dog ppl get distracted so easily

i got a question whats the difference between the temperment and training required for a security dog and a PPD ?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> Does that mean something like......
> 
> 
> To learn my teachings, I must first teach you how to learn.-The Sphinx in Mystery Men



 nah mun, lol.

I might have lost the direction of the thread.
I meant ramping up the stress for the dog, not to bring out more fire in the dog, but rather to help the dog deal with such stresses without getting getting too fired up.

Some people want a very dominant dog full to the brim with fight/defence and prey drive, but they are happy to keep the dog antisocial, which is fine, it works for them.
This is great for them as the dog will take more and more pressure and stress and only get more worked up. 
I prefer a dog that is not so full on and has a level of resilience where more stress/pressure does not make it get more and more mental but stays at a good calm level.
I don't wish to have a dog that gets so riled up the more pressure you put on it, that past a point, it fires off at the nearest target, rather than the correct target. The red mist has descended and it's all bets off. 
A dog that is a good stress coper rather than a dog that feeds off stress.
One that winds down very quickly once the threat has been neutralised normality returns and you don't have to put it in a quiet room on it's own for an hour.

When you have to flank a dog it can be a good indicator of what kind of dog you have, but I am in no way suggesting anyone tries this just to find out. I don't like flanking unless it is 100% necessary.

Edit: What do you mean by a security dog? A police service dog? a private security firm dog? or a dog for property security?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> When you have to flank a dog it can be a good indicator of what kind of dog you have, but I am in no way suggesting anyone tries this just to find out. I don't like flanking unless it is 100% necessary.


When is flanking 100% necessary?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Michael Murphy said:


> dam you dog ppl get distracted so easily
> 
> i got a question whats the difference between the temperment and training required for a security dog and a PPD ?


SQUIRREL!

A security dog, judging by my experience working as a canine handler for a security guard company is whatever pointy eared pos that they have in their kennel. There may have been some decent dogs in there, but of the dozen or so that I worked, I would not have put myself in a position where I was relying on the dog to get me out of trouble. I was assigned to work pups under a year old, old dogs, fat dogs, and out and out cowards, as well as a couple of nice dogs. Most were good company, and nothing more. I got an extra $1 an hour for having the dog with me on site.

As far as I know, there is no standard in Ontario for a 'security dog'. 

I think there is no set standard for what constitutes a PPD. It's whatever you want it to be. For me, despite some bitework training and some decent obedience, I don't consider my dogs PPDs, just pets. I do hope if I ever find myself genuinely needing them, that they will have enough training to be brave enough to try to protect me, but I am not fooling myself into believing they are total badass dogs who are going to save me when the bad guys come for me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> SQUIRREL!
> 
> A security dog, judging by my experience working as a canine handler for a security guard company is whatever pointy eared pos that they have in their kennel. There may have been some decent dogs in there, but of the dozen or so that I worked, I would not have put myself in a position where I was relying on the dog to get me out of trouble. I was assigned to work pups under a year old, old dogs, fat dogs, and out and out cowards, as well as a couple of nice dogs. Most were good company, and nothing more. I got an extra $1 an hour for having the dog with me on site.
> 
> ...


I think the character goes a lot further than the training if a dog has to be used for protection.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Dogs, humans - training gives them a skill set to fall back on when they're not sure what to do. Whether its to follow an order, or initiate an action, having 'practised' before hand is always helpful. 

For me, what I considered desirable characteristics in the dogs I own was based on my own situation, what I want or am capable of handling and training, and that I really don't expect my dogs to ever have to truly protect me. Strictly deterrent and my training is all geared to sport and fun. My dogs are not 'the real deal' and I'm ok with that. (But don't piss the Dutchie off, I think she has the potential to be a really nasty bitch if she gets angry.)


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

hmm otherwise seems like you need similar characteristics in a security and ppd dog.

well then does a good police dog "type" dog also make a security or ppd dog as well.
so for example knpv malinois or dutchy are excelling in the police dog / military field, does that necessarilly mean they would be the best ppd dogs as well
(forgeting that individual dogs differ and "a good dog is a good dog" stuff, based on average)
or at the ppd dog level does a rottweiler or gsd close the gap or even do better.
reason i ask is i think for a ppd dog you need more suspicion , defense drive, and civil aggression.
knpv dogs do have prey (or fight, depending on the dog) but dont seem to be very defense based and might not recognise or react to threats as quickly has a more defense based rottweiler say. obviously courage and solid nerves is assumed (do good nerve rottweilers still exist?)
and at the ppd level awesome obedience, tracking or speed in attack is not necessary.

so in summary where do the individual working breeds stand in the ppd/security category?
and not considering how they would be with family or difficulty to live with or potential liability , only based on protection ability.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I think the character goes a lot further than the training if a dog has to be used for protection.


I would agree with this. I still think that training is important, don't get me wrong. But it seems to me that there needs to be something inside the dog that compels him to be a protective force.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> hmm otherwise seems like you need similar characteristics in a security and ppd dog.
> 
> well then does a good police dog "type" dog also make a security or ppd dog as well.
> so for example knpv malinois or dutchy are excelling in the police dog / military field, does that necessarilly mean they would be the best ppd dogs as well
> ...


I have a female knpv type dog. Did no training at all really, no drive building, not much in the way of socialization...kenneled the dog at a friends house for the first 10 months. At 9 months old we tried her out on a tug, it was pretty good. Then moved to sleeve, bite was not very intense/hard...which was to be expected. put dog in kennel, had the decoy do a little fence agitation, not much at all, just a stare and some good feigning and posturing...convincing the dog that he was not her friend, took about 5 seconds, and the dog almost made it over the kennel top to try to attack the guy. Let her cool off a little, Took her back out and did another sleeve bite with a different guy...Bite was intense and hard..Guy raised the stick and the dog jumped off the sleeve and grabbed his stick arm...took about a year to calm the dog back down through proper bite work, and get her relatively safe to work. 

I did what I did for a reason, to see how the dog would react, and to see what the dog brought to the table on her own, without a lot of training. I realize this is not the ideal way to start a dog off..but like I said I did it for my own reasons...

I am not sure about all KNPV type dogs, but I think you are sort of off base about some of them. Prey is the root of fight. I think that is where the better dogs work from..and many of them bring very real aggression.

I have no clue how this dog stacks up against "the best" PP type dogs, but I sure as hell would not want to have to fight her, there is a lot of natural aggression to work with there, swimming below the surface.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think it is best to have a dog that will protect itself before even thinking about whether or not it might be able to protect people.


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## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Joby I agree that prey is often over looked as a desirable drive for protection.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> When is flanking 100% necessary?


When nothing else is working, lol.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> When nothing else is working, lol.


 
to get the dog to bite? or out?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

flanking...
i hear it used a lot but never heard it defined except in a negative sense

r u referring to slapping or prodding w/ palm/fingers/stick, etc slightly behind and below the ribs ? that's what i've always thought it meant.

if so, to me it has widely different effects on different dogs depending on how hard you flank it and how handling reactive the dog is

am i close here ?
can it be compared in the same way to a lead correction ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> flanking...
> i hear it used a lot but never heard it defined except in a negative sense
> 
> r u referring to slapping or prodding w/ palm/fingers/stick, etc slightly behind and below the ribs ? that's what i've always thought it meant.
> ...


Flanking as I know it means to grab, pinch, pull or twist the loose sensitive skin on the dogs loin, to cause discomfort or pain.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

rick smith said:


> flanking...
> i hear it used a lot but never heard it defined except in a negative sense
> 
> r u referring to slapping or prodding w/ palm/fingers/stick, etc slightly behind and below the ribs ? that's what i've always thought it meant.
> ...


Can you explain when it would be positive?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Can you explain when it would be positive?


it is always positive


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Flanking for outing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvU-_xW2Iyo

flanking for aggression...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

For outs, I don't know what the fck that second video is meant to be, some kind of dog torture camp?

the only way flanking is positive is in terms of 'something added'


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> For outs, I don't know what the fck that second video is meant to be, some kind of dog torture camp?
> 
> the only way flanking is positive is in terms of 'something added'


I know...

did you read Dave's tag line?

*"Operant Conditioning - Taking the hocus pocus out of dog training, one quadrant at a time."- Dave Colborn*

I would never flank a dog to out it...unless it was a test...to see if the dog would out, and I was being bitten....


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