# New advancements in training



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

What are your thoughts on the "new advancements" in training - particularly in Schtuzhund?

I ran into a local Schutzhund (trainer I guess?) yesterday who had some very strong opinions as to the "new advancements in training" versus "stuck in the 80's training". I didn't bother to inquire about these "advanced" methods because i'm comfortable with what I was taught for the type of dogs I like to train. 


Anyone of you guys aware of these new advancements in training methods in Schutzhund?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

You missed yr chance, Ms Law was about to explain the newest new stuff. 

Only thing wrong with being stuck in the 80's is orange jump suits and most of the music.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Um new advancements? As far as I know, The theories surrounding operant conditioning have not changed since skinner discovered them.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Um new advancements? As far as I know, The theories surrounding operant conditioning have not changed since skinner discovered them.


New definitions, more buttons on ecollars, subdivision of breeds into working or show lines .........lotsa new stuff


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

So is anyone still wearing orange jumpsuits and listening to their walkman while roller skating??? 


Or is it just me?? 


Lol


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Sorry... this is more or less just a rant.

Long story short, this guy used to be a member of our club, but ended up leaving after a very short time. To sum it up, he was quite proud of his sheperds and didn't not like the fact that non of us where impressed. He did have a SCH 3 dog that he bought that tracked real nice though!

But I guess since then hes gone on to start his own Sch club, where he uses these new advanced methods. :-o


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> So is anyone still wearing orange jumpsuits and listening to their walkman while roller skating???
> 
> 
> Or is it just me??
> ...


 
What exactly is a walkman???


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

How old are you?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Meng Xiong said:


> What exactly is a walkman???


The Sony invention that first allowed people to people to carry their music with them on a small device, and listen to it with (at that time) small lightweight headphones.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> How old are you?


 
I kid.. I'm 33, i used to own a sony walkman, however, I do have nephews who have only heard of walkmans. 

I can't say i've ever owned an orange jumpsuit though.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Um new advancements? As far as I know, The theories surrounding operant conditioning have not changed since skinner discovered them.



I would guess he meant operant conditioning, too, but as James says, nothing about its principles is what 
I'd call "new."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Meng Xiong said:


> I kid ....i used to own a sony walkman ... I can't say i've ever owned an orange jumpsuit though.



Whew, to both. :lol:


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

No, but really, is this where Schutzhund has or is headed? Previously, I had only heard about this from my TD who would say things about the sport and how its changed, but for me to see it first hand and locally... is lame.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Meng Xiong said:


> I kid.. I'm 33, i used to own a sony walkman, however, I do have nephews who have only heard of walkmans.
> 
> I can't say i've ever owned an orange jumpsuit though.


 Congrats on yr disclosure, yr amongst friends here, never even tried on an orange jumpsuit at home.

good enough for david lee—roth, aka david frost??


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Meng .... exactly what did you see that looked "lame" ?


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Meng .... exactly what did you see that looked "lame" ?


Its really non of my perogitive, but its a little iritating when people make bogus claims of being a world class trainer, breeder, producer of protection dogs yadi, yadi, yah.... especially when you know the person, and that person has no idea.

This guy just started SCH last season and apparently hes now a training director of his own club and all the members are people who've purchased a "protection" dog from him. Its rediculous. 

I just happen to run into this guy out in public and he goes on to tell me that my TD's training methods are outdated. I mean really... my TD has been in the sport 30+yrs and competed on a national level. Its just really retarded, hopefully its not the new generation of folks in the sport. 

That was all I was ranting about...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

any details on the actual methods that were being discusses? either the old or the "new"???


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> Its really non of my perogitive, but its a little iritating when people make bogus claims of being a world class trainer, breeder, producer of protection dogs yadi, yadi, yah.... especially when you know the person, and that person has no idea.
> 
> This guy just started SCH last season and apparently hes now a training director of his own club and all the members are people who've purchased a "protection" dog from him. Its rediculous.
> 
> ...


Just from my experience I think it's the new generation of dog trainers.

I haven't been training "forever" but I like to think I have a bit of common sense and a little experience. The people who I see the most attitude from are the "positive" "new" training methods ones...I can only assume this is the kind of person you're talking about. All the ones that I've met have lots to say, sometimes have done a lot of book reading (hey, that's where I started too), and little to show for it. Sometimes I like their dogs and sometimes I think their dogs look flatter in their work than the trainers' dogs whom they like to call "outdated" or "old fashioned" or even "abusive". And of course sometimes their dogs are out of control with plenty of excuses for their poor behavior. :lol:

I wish them luck on their journey and hope they eventually open their eyes and ears to continue learning.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> any details on the actual methods that were being discusses? either the old or the "new"???


The methods used are just like any other well established club, a good ole classical and opperant conditioning. The degree of which just depends on the dog, but for the most part I think its fair to say that my TD breeds dogs who have a streak of aggression or seriousness and as the dog progresses the training is geared towards bringing out that element in the work. Theres definately times with young dogs where training dosn't look pretty. Not everyone agrees with the decoy poping the dog under the chin with a plastic bottle filled with rocks should it come in the blind dirty, or really puting on the pressure (within the limits of SCH), but for some dogs I think its A-OK.

And lastnight, I think i may have tuned out after I heard a mumble about luring a dog with treats and strictly motivational something or other - I mean theres a time and place for that but c'mon, especially if you're a guy whos breeding. If you're not really testing your stock how will you know what you have?

He made two statements that really took me back and it was to the effect of, ' theres no doubt that (training director) breeds some of the best Rottis in the states. I bet I could take one of his dogs to a national level with my training.' "The reason why (such and such) isn't competing on a national level is because his training is still stuck in the 80's." 

Its just MY rant on a local level, but I can only imagine you get a couple of these Joes just trying to make a name for themselves and its all down hill.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Meng Xiong said:


> I kid.. I'm 33, i used to own a sony walkman, however, I do have nephews who have only heard of walkmans.
> 
> I can't say i've ever owned an orange jumpsuit though.


Meng,

They issue you an orange jumpsuit when you go to jail, but you don't "own" it. Have to give it back when you're released. At least that's what I'm told ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Meng,
> 
> They issue you an orange jumpsuit when you go to jail, but you don't "own" it. Have to give it back when you're released. At least that's what I'm told ;-)


So the whole jail thing is a big washout!? No nice jumpsuit, no nothin'?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So the whole jail thing is a big washout!? No nice jumpsuit, no nothin'?


trick is, you gotta go in naked, then you get to keep some gear.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> trick is, you gotta go in naked, then you get to keep some gear.



A good tip that I will absolutely keep in mind.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> trick is, you gotta go in naked, then you get to keep some gear.



I would want to wear as many layers of clothing that is absolutely, absolutely possible.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

and a pillow to bite on.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> and a pillow to bite on.


You only need the pillow if you didn't wear enough clothes


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

???Walkman??? :-k I can remember listening to the radio while walking around my back yard. The only problem was I couldn't leave the yard cause that dern extension cord wasn't long enough and the damn thing was heavy. 
Having trained my first dog over 50 yrs ago doesn't mean I'm any good at but I can claim to have tried a few different methods. I actually like OC. I've titled dogs with OC and motivational only. It doesn't mean I will continue using it as the only method in training but it will be a huge part of it.
Any method, old new, reborn or otherwise is worth looking at, even trying it, but I won't trash a method until I've put some real effort in it. No method is for everyone or every dog! 
:-k .......... Don't know to many folks that would consider me modern. :grin::-D


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