# Training methods-new vs old-which is better



## vicki dickey

I am torn between two training methods and would like to hear other trainer's ideas. I have a 5 month old puppy in a beginning class taught by an AKC judge. We are learning the basics with a clicker, treats and words. Positive training. She insists on a loose lead at ALL times. I have owned my puppy for a month. His former owner did not do anything with him-he lived in a crate a lot. He will now sit, down, stand and stay on all three with me at the end of a 6 ft leash for a minute and return to him goiing behind him to heel position. Oh and he also learned to shake hands at the trainer''s request that we teach him a trick. Personally I am not big on tricks but I did it. I have also taught him watch in front and heel position. I also taught him a slight pop of the leash means to watch me should he lose his focus. We also have taken up to 5 steps in heeling with him watching me. All good. But take him for a walk and that boy wants to pull you left and right. Now comes the second method of training. A friend saw the puppy doing that and asked why in the world would I let him get by with that. I explained I wasnt and was trying the all positive approach. She took the leash and the puppy and every time he would pull he would get a jerk correction with a quick release and then praise. After a few minutes of this the puppy was giving her more attention because if he did not he would get that jerk. I rememeber training like that with a choke collar years ago-it was the way it was done then.
SO which is better the old correction training or the newer positive training? My friend feels that if the dog fears (perhaps the wrong term) the correction you will have a better trained dog than one who is handed string cheese or hotdogs or hear a click. Take the hotdog away and what do you have whereas the dog trained with corrections will work out of respect or fear. That jerk is the motivation that piece of hotdog is suppose to give. Again I say fear but maybe respect would be better.I am sure I am not saying this all correctly but maybe some of you will understand what I am trying to say or ask.
The other day I resorted to a pinch collar on this puppy and it made a major improvement in him. What happenes when that collar is replaced with a reg, collar? 
I ask all of this because I do not want to make a mistake with this puppy. I prefer to get a puppy at a lot younger age than 4 months because I begin working with them immediately. But sometimes life gives you a surprise. He has learned a lot in a few weeks. I work with him daily for 10-15 minutes sessions at least twice a day. I try to keep it fun, positive but would it hurt to add a little of the old correction when necessary?
You all might remember I trained my other aussie Zak with all positive methods and yet he stopped doing well in OB at the shows. Ring sour, not his thing, too much too fast-or is all positive not so positive? Would he have done better in the old method? Zak by the way is doing great in agility and is very happy and motivated so perhaps OB was not his sport. But I wonder.


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## James Downey

vicki dickey said:


> I am torn between two training methods and would like to hear other trainer's ideas. I have a 5 month old puppy in a beginning class taught by an AKC judge. We are learning the basics with a clicker, treats and words. Positive training. She insists on a loose lead at ALL times. I have owned my puppy for a month. His former owner did not do anything with him-he lived in a crate a lot. He will now sit, down, stand and stay on all three with me at the end of a 6 ft leash for a minute and return to him goiing behind him to heel position. Oh and he also learned to shake hands at the trainer''s request that we teach him a trick. Personally I am not big on tricks but I did it. I have also taught him watch in front and heel position. I also taught him a slight pop of the leash means to watch me should he lose his focus. We also have taken up to 5 steps in heeling with him watching me. All good. But take him for a walk and that boy wants to pull you left and right. Now comes the second method of training. A friend saw the puppy doing that and asked why in the world would I let him get by with that. I explained I wasnt and was trying the all positive approach. She took the leash and the puppy and every time he would pull he would get a jerk correction with a quick release and then praise. After a few minutes of this the puppy was giving her more attention because if he did not he would get that jerk. I rememeber training like that with a choke collar years ago-it was the way it was done then.
> SO which is better the old correction training or the newer positive training? My friend feels that if the dog fears (perhaps the wrong term) the correction you will have a better trained dog than one who is handed string cheese or hotdogs or hear a click. Take the hotdog away and what do you have whereas the dog trained with corrections will work out of respect or fear. That jerk is the motivation that piece of hotdog is suppose to give. Again I say fear but maybe respect would be better.I am sure I am not saying this all correctly but maybe some of you will understand what I am trying to say or ask.
> The other day I resorted to a pinch collar on this puppy and it made a major improvement in him. What happenes when that collar is replaced with a reg, collar?
> I ask all of this because I do not want to make a mistake with this puppy. I prefer to get a puppy at a lot younger age than 4 months because I begin working with them immediately. But sometimes life gives you a surprise. He has learned a lot in a few weeks. I work with him daily for 10-15 minutes sessions at least twice a day. I try to keep it fun, positive but would it hurt to add a little of the old correction when necessary?
> You all might remember I trained my other aussie Zak with all positive methods and yet he stopped doing well in OB at the shows. Ring sour, not his thing, too much too fast-or is all positive not so positive? Would he have done better in the old method? Zak by the way is doing great in agility and is very happy and motivated so perhaps OB was not his sport. But I wonder.


 
Vicki,

This is the struggle I am having. I am the process of studying everything I can about applying aversives. Either in punishment or negative reiforcement....

But here's what I have so far. First, I would not allow the trainer to correct my dog like that. First, the dog is not being "bad" by pulling. he probably does not know what's right. It's like popping to get watch without the dog know what watch is. Also, if you clicker or marker train. You cannot expect the dog to know what a click means until you have taught them what it means.

so with pops. what I have been doing. is first I get the dog in drive on slip lead. I have been popping, not hard but putting pops on the dog, just a few while the dog is tugging with me. I hope they associate it with drive. I think this may take some of the "shock" out of getting popped and hopefully curb inducing or reducing any stress that pops may cause.

Next, I have to be sure the dog has been taught an escape route. Brittney Larrimore taught me this with Joker LDS. I think it's a Michael Ellis method. She puts the dog in front of her on a slip lead, and pops the dog in rapid succession, the dog may fight, but keep going till the dog takes a step in your direction...mark and rewards. this teaches the dog the way to shut off the pops. it gives them a clear escape route. 

Next, I think you can only use pops for one maybe 2 behaviors at a time. correcting for to many behaviors may cause the dog to believe escape is not possible.

This is every trainers challenge. moving from how to get the dgo to behave for a reward to you must behave.


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## Connie Sutherland

Have you watched any Michael Ellis DVDs, including the free ones (and there are many many free clips)?


_"We are learning the basics with a clicker, treats and words. Positive training."_

Just to get a couple of basic terms in common, you mean marker training, right? "Clickers, rewards, and words" may or may not mean proper marker training (which I have discovered --- some folks uses the term freely who don't really know what the marker means, how it's loaded, or charged, what the differences are between rewards, lures, and bribes, or even the fact that marker training is not necessarily no-correction training at all). 


ETA
It's a lot easier to make suggestions and help weigh options if we use the same definitions.


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## Edward Egan

I'd say maybe to much to fast. Slow down some, life is short, but not that short.;-)


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## James Downey

Edward Egan said:


> I'd say maybe to much to fast. Slow down some, life is short, but not that short.;-)


 
I agree with Edward. Since puppies are little sponges. I think many people assume it's the best time to learn. And it is, but it's also the easiest time for them to learn training sucks. So, I just build drive and relationship on the field. I may teach little things at home with food, and do one or two downs, sits or short heels on the field. But it's 99% playing ball and tug and 1% OB. I feel I do not even know who the dog is really going to be till about 7 months old. and then all I know is what I am working with. I wait till the dog is almost a year before I start doing what I would feel is real OB.


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## Bob Scott

Really hard to go wrong if you follow the Michael Ellis DVDs. He uses markers and correction. 
It still boils down to what your most comfortable with and what works for YOUR dog.
Unfortunately, without a lot of experience doing trying all of it, it can be a crap shoot figuring that out.


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## Tabatha Farnel

vicki dickey said:


> We also have taken up to 5 steps in heeling with him watching me. All good. But take him for a walk and that boy wants to pull you left and right. Now comes the second method of training. A friend saw the puppy doing that and asked why in the world would I let him get by with that. I explained I wasnt and was trying the all positive approach. She took the leash and the puppy and every time he would pull he would get a jerk correction with a quick release and then praise. After a few minutes of this the puppy was giving her more attention because if he did not he would get that jerk. I rememeber training like that with a choke collar years ago-it was the way it was done then.


First, I agree with getting the Michael Ellis DVD's.

I had the same dilemma with my pup about how to deal with pulling on casual walks. I didn't want her neck to become desensitized to pressure, and I didn't want to be yanked around with her in a harness. So, I used a head halter. I know most working dog people don't like them, but it worked. It kept her from pulling, and I knew it was only a temporary solution while she was in training. We live in an apartment building, so we go for a lot of walks.

We are training the heel M.E. style, using both positive reinforcement and leash pressure with a prong. She is 10 months old now and when I take her for walks I have to tell her to take a break and go for a pee. Otherwise she will pretty much continuously walk in heel position offering eye contact. 

So, I think it's too early to expect a 5 month old pup to go for a walk without pulling, and that management is the best option while you train the end behaviour that you want.


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## Dave Colborn

vicki dickey said:


> I am torn between two training methods and would like to hear other trainer's ideas. I have a 5 month old puppy in a beginning class taught by an AKC judge. We are learning the basics with a clicker, treats and words. Positive training. She insists on a loose lead at ALL times. I have owned my puppy for a month. His former owner did not do anything with him-he lived in a crate a lot. He will now sit, down, stand and stay on all three with me at the end of a 6 ft leash for a minute and return to him goiing behind him to heel position. Oh and he also learned to shake hands at the trainer''s request that we teach him a trick. Personally I am not big on tricks but I did it. I have also taught him watch in front and heel position. I also taught him a slight pop of the leash means to watch me should he lose his focus. We also have taken up to 5 steps in heeling with him watching me. All good. But take him for a walk and that boy wants to pull you left and right. Now comes the second method of training. A friend saw the puppy doing that and asked why in the world would I let him get by with that. I explained I wasnt and was trying the all positive approach. She took the leash and the puppy and every time he would pull he would get a jerk correction with a quick release and then praise. After a few minutes of this the puppy was giving her more attention because if he did not he would get that jerk. I rememeber training like that with a choke collar years ago-it was the way it was done then.
> SO which is better the old correction training or the newer positive training? My friend feels that if the dog fears (perhaps the wrong term) the correction you will have a better trained dog than one who is handed string cheese or hotdogs or hear a click. Take the hotdog away and what do you have whereas the dog trained with corrections will work out of respect or fear. That jerk is the motivation that piece of hotdog is suppose to give. Again I say fear but maybe respect would be better.I am sure I am not saying this all correctly but maybe some of you will understand what I am trying to say or ask.
> The other day I resorted to a pinch collar on this puppy and it made a major improvement in him. What happenes when that collar is replaced with a reg, collar?
> I ask all of this because I do not want to make a mistake with this puppy. I prefer to get a puppy at a lot younger age than 4 months because I begin working with them immediately. But sometimes life gives you a surprise. He has learned a lot in a few weeks. I work with him daily for 10-15 minutes sessions at least twice a day. I try to keep it fun, positive but would it hurt to add a little of the old correction when necessary?
> You all might remember I trained my other aussie Zak with all positive methods and yet he stopped doing well in OB at the shows. Ring sour, not his thing, too much too fast-or is all positive not so positive? Would he have done better in the old method? Zak by the way is doing great in agility and is very happy and motivated so perhaps OB was not his sport. But I wonder.


You are a little confused I think. You mention that you pop him to correct for inattention under your "positive" training. This is positive, it is positive punishment. 

Also he should learn a command for the watch me, not a leash correction. The leash correction is for inattention, not attention. Training is about being thoughtful of the end result. If you say you are teaching attention with a pop, you can. Then you are teaching the dog to avoid discomfort. I think you are probably actually using food or praise for this, with a correction for inattention. Seems like mincing words, but it can confuse your whole training process when you try and sort out an issue created by you or the environment. IE does the dog actually know the exercise, need less of a distraction, need more correction, etc..

You are already doing what most find to REALLY work in dog training, I think. A mix. Training motivationally is great, but at some point most dogs need to understand they HAVE to do something, IE give attention, or a competing motivation will come between what you want, and what they want.

What you are doing on the walk, I would consider unfair though. You are certainly past 5 steps when you go on your walk, and it doesn't sound like you have taught him a loose heel yet, where he has to stay next to you, without giving attention. Teach this first, without distraction, then with distraction, and teach him how to respond to a correction, and you should be on the right track. If it is a competition dog, I would skip the walks, as that isn't a goal of competition. Start the walks a little older, or allow the pulling until you teach the heeling, maybe try a longer line or a flexi.

Jerking on the dogs leash works, if your goal is just to get your dog to stay with you. Not where I head first, but it works, and some dogs respond well to this clear cut guideline. If you do this, I would personally give food or praise, right after the correction, to give heeling some value to the dog, other than avoiding correction, if he'll take food.


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## vicki dickey

Thanks everyone! 
Wording is so important on here. Loose heeling is where I am having a problem with him pulling. And maybe I am expecting too much too soon. I raised Zak from 7 weeks and never allowed him to pull so having a 5 month old pull me every which way seemed like he was too old for that behavior. I should not ever compare dogs since each develop and learn at their own speed. My trainer said " to teach loose heeling when the dog breaks the plane of your leg, walk backwards and use the leash to bring your dog back in position. Feed a treat at or behind your leg." This is directly from the worksheet she sent home. Well you cant always walk backward and I wasnt getting anywhere. That is why I am on here asking -how do you do it with a pup without causing a problem later in training. Years ago we started pups at 6 months with a choke chain and you popped in or up or back to keep them in position and you praised them. And I have to think done of my show dogs ever stopped working well in the ring. Its like I had their respect. Lke it taught them they have to do this and do it now and no hard feelings. Thats why I am sitting here scratching my head over the clickers (so hard to manever leash, clicker, treats and time it right too) and all of this positive stuff. I like being positive dont get me wrong but comparing my positive trained dog to my old choke collar trained dogs I have to say the old method worked like a charm. Maybe it is a science to mix the two methods as needed for each dog to get the best results.
I taught Indy the puppy "watch" with the clicker and treats and then switched using the word "me" . When he mastered in front and heel positions then I put him in front of me without distractions and if he looked away I would say ME and if he did not immediately look at me I would lightly pop his leash and would give him a good boy when he looked at me. Then I added a few mild distractions and eventually will eliminate the word me so that a slight pop of the leash will get him to look at me. Pop to some people might mean more of a jerk where to me it is a slight upward or sideward movement. Aussies are usually
"soft" dogs and corrections have to be geared to them otherwise I think you can make a mess of things.
Once I had a good watch at heel position I took a step, then two and have worked up to five steps. Also I work at sits at heel position doing a step and a sit against a wall for straight sits. I repeat this 5-10 times. I treat every 3 sits and will eventually eliminate the treats.
I use food for lures and rewards. If he does not do what is asked of course there is no food reward and we repeat the exercise. I also say good or if he is wrong I say nope and we start over at he point he made the mistake.
When I teach a new exercise I never put a word to it in the beginning. Also I am careful WHEN I treat because you could be treating or saying a command at the wrong time thus confusing him or teaching him the wrong thing. I hope that made sense.
I also work on recalls. A recall can save a dog's life and to me is the most important exercise to learn.
All of this sounds like a lot but actually takes vey little time and I break it all up with playing ball or tugging with his favorite rope toy.


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## Brian Anderson

I dont even use a leash when I am teaching a dog to walk with me. If the dog is having trouble putting it all together I use a chute. A chute is nothing but a narrow corridor I built using plywood. I stole the idea from a horse trainer that lives near me. The walls are independent and free standing. When I start the dog in the chute I pull the walls together close enough where there is just enough room for the dog to heel. Then over time I start to make the walls taper outward kinda like a funnel. The idea came to me when I was helping a buddy of mine train a weight pull dog several years ago (the dog went on to win the ADBA nationals and AADR nationals in the same year). I was discussing with the horse trainer about the dogs want to run off the track when it got heavy. He suggested that I put up temporary walls along the track. I did and it worked like a charm. I built on that by using it for OB. It is a great tool for teaching recall in the beginning and lots of other things. It basically allows you to do what Ellis teaches which is to work against a wall but it also eliminates distraction and clearly defines an area. 

Unless you have a 1% dog there will be a need for corrections after the teaching phase. 

Big difference in compulsion and correction.


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## Sara Waters

I usually start with my pups little free shaping games and perch work etc so when I start training them they try very hard to figure out what I want. Some of the things they try makes me laugh and they seem to enjoy it.
I also teach them attention, so if they look at me they get a click, praise or whatever followed by a treat. I may hold the treat out to one side and the minute they look at me they get the treat. This worked well for my timid and shy little kelpie, it seems to centre her and she trains better.

With heeling I do it in very small sessions and because of the free shaping games they really try hard to get into the right position. I also use a wall or fence to help them. I praise and treat when they are in the right position at my leg. They soon get the hang of it. I keep the lead loose and dont progress untill they understand where I want them. I just keep reinforcing what I want. Patience is the key I have had to learn, not trying to take short cuts - I am still learning this.

One of them like Zak is not big on obedience trials but has a beautiful reliable heel out and about with just praise as a reward. A couple of others are very enthusiastic in the trial ring so I dont think positive was the cause of my one dog not liking obedience, I think it was too much pressure too young with her. I learnt my lessons for my next dogs.

I do use the occassional correction but only once I know they understand what I want.


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## Bob Scott

Check these out for leash response. 
Worked great on my really crazy GSD. 
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=michael+ellis+and+leash+response&aq=f


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> Check these out for leash response.
> Worked great on my really crazy GSD.
> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=michael+ellis+and+leash+response&aq=f


Also, Vicky, just checking: when you say _"Loose heeling is where I am having a problem with him pulling"_ you mean casual loose-leash walking, right -- just a no-pull walk?

And do you work on this at home before taking it on the road?

Are you using a bait bag around your waist (best thing ever, for me)?

And you stop every time the leash grows taut?

At first I m/r OFTEN for loose-leash.


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## chad paquin

Brian I like what you has to say. I am alwYs looking for new ways and things to add to training. Thanks


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## Brian Anderson

chad paquin said:


> Brian I like what you has to say. I am alwYs looking for new ways and things to add to training. Thanks


check it out I think you will find it works.


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## Lynn Cheffins

Brian Anderson said:


> I dont even use a leash when I am teaching a dog to walk with me. If the dog is having trouble putting it all together I use a chute. A chute is nothing but a narrow corridor I built using plywood. I stole the idea from a horse trainer that lives near me. The walls are independent and free standing. When I start the dog in the chute I pull the walls together close enough where there is just enough room for the dog to heel. Then over time I start to make the walls taper outward kinda like a funnel. The idea came to me when I was helping a buddy of mine train a weight pull dog several years ago (the dog went on to win the ADBA nationals and AADR nationals in the same year). I was discussing with the horse trainer about the dogs want to run off the track when it got heavy. He suggested that I put up temporary walls along the track. I did and it worked like a charm. I built on that by using it for OB. It is a great tool for teaching recall in the beginning and lots of other things. It basically allows you to do what Ellis teaches which is to work against a wall but it also eliminates distraction and clearly defines an area.
> 
> Unless you have a 1% dog there will be a need for corrections after the teaching phase.
> 
> Big difference in compulsion and correction.


I've used a narrow hallway for teaching backing up but this is a great idea


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## Connie Sutherland

Brian Anderson said:


> check it out I think you will find it works.


The channel/chute method is also very helpful to me when teaching the dog to back up.

I admit that my lazy a$$ did not build anything with plywood, but for a short distance (like position, or backup) a couch pulled out from the wall makes a pretty good channel, as does the space between a couch and a coffee table.



eta



Lynn Cheffins said:


> I've used a narrow hallway for teaching backing up but this is a great idea


Ha! I was typing while you were posting.


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## Jennifer Marshall

When I get a pup I take it outside only to potty and to train. I never take pups for walks like people take an adult dog. Why? because they are not trained to heel yet.

I teach a formal heel inside along a wall or in the hallway and then move to outside later. If I take my pup outside I have it on a 20 ft line and let it do it's business and then interact. I do motivational recalls with toys and treats and just play. I use distractions as an opportunity to work on focus, I find out just how nutty I need to be in order to be more interesting than the distraction. No correction.

You have only have your pup for a month, don't think about the age the pup is, remember the length of time you have had him and the fact that it has only been 4 weeks and the pup is still just a baby. For 4 weeks of training you have sure been busy! I think you are rushing things a bit, expecting too much. You say the pup "knows" things but again ... stop and remember that you have only had this pup a month. What it "knows" (rock solid no question the dog KNOWS) is probably very little. I don't expect a dog to be solid until after it has been proofed and after the correction stage in my training. I usually don't introduce correction for specific exercises until my pups are about 7-9 months and this is after having them since 6-9 weeks old. 

I think a mix of markers/positive for teaching and correction for proofing works very well. For me and my dogs  I use markers and positive to TEACH what I want and proof the dog's understanding in various ways and when I feel I have trained the dog around a wide variety of distractions that I feel it does know what I am teling it to do, I will introduce correction to show the dog that non compliance results in physical stimulus that it doesn't like(collar pops on flat or fur saver) and compliance is rewarded.


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## vicki dickey

Jennifer I did not say the puppy was rock solid-how could a 5 month old puppy be rock solid no matter how many weeks of training it had? He is in a beginner class with other pups his age and they are all learning the same things so I do not think it is pushing him too fast. 
I take my puppies everywhere. I socialize them and get them use to as many different things as possible. This pup spent his first few months stuck in a crate so it is important to get him out and about. Tonight I took him to a local horseshow. He saw horses, people, dogs, heard loud speakers, saw big spot lights, got to climb on the bleachers and even had a taste of horse poop. And because I do take him everywhere I would like him to walk nicely on a leash-I dont expect a focused heel-just to walk with me without pulling me and yanking to go off one way or another. At 5 months of age I do not think that is asking a lot. Because this pup was allowed to pull with his former owner I am having to retrain him. I would have thought it would be easier than it is. That is why I am asking for ideas to correct him in the right way since it is something I have not worked with before. Since I was not having a lot of improvement with just postive training for a loose heel that is why I came on here to question training methods and to ask about corrections, special collars or whatever else others have tried for the same problem.
And I think the channel/chute idea is excellant and will definately give it a try. I am also viewing the videos and learning from them. Tihis is why this forum is so great you can get help and learn a lot.


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## Joby Becker

if all you want is a walk next to you without pulling...just change directions right before he gets to the end of the leash...repeat...repeat...dont say anything...he will start to stay near you and watch what you are doing..

no words put to it, trains himself to maintain pace and pay attention.


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## Jennifer Marshall

OOPS sorry Vicky that's what happens when I use netbook and don't proof read. That should have said (which to me means rock solid etc) in which case if the pup is not rock solid(my definition of "knows" then IMO it is unfair to correct. I take my pups everywhere with me also, for socialization and training. If I have an agenda such as shopping at the petstore then the pup is allowed to get away with being a pup. If not I use the distractions for training as I stated, to find out what I need to do to be more interested than everything else.


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## Don Turnipseed

Vicki, to me giving treats as rewards vs praise is like portion feeding vs free feeding. Once you start it, there is no going back. You can't spoil the child with sweets as rewards for a year and then stop and expect them to appreciate praise. Here is an example of how a dog learns.
You have two solid rows of cactus plants with 2" thorns and a 2" clear path going down the middle between the rows. The pup veers to either side and hits the thorns. He only has to experience the discomfort of those thorns a couple of times before he learns to stay on the 2" clear path. It is comfort vs discomfort. That is how they learn. 

Fearing consequenses is an intergral part of life itself. Although it is not a life or death fear obviously, it is still fear in the beginning. Shortly, the fear passes and there is no fear there, they just don't do it when they realize, on their own, that they have control of those consequences. They just choose not to do things that cause discomfort. There is no more fear of it. It is like, do you fear walking next to a street with cars doing 60 mph going by? No fear, you just stay on the sidewalk.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Vicki, to me giving treats as rewards vs praise is like portion feeding vs free feeding. Once you start it, there is no going back. You can't spoil the child with sweets as rewards for a year and then stop and expect them to appreciate praise. Here is an example of how a dog learns.
> You have two solid rows of cactus plants with 2" thorns and a 2" clear path going down the middle between the rows. The pup veers to either side and hits the thorns. He only has to experience the discomfort of those thorns a couple of times before he learns to stay on the 2" clear path. It is comfort vs discomfort. That is how they learn.
> 
> Fearing consequenses is an intergral part of life itself. Although it is not a life or death fear obviously, it is still fear in the beginning. Shortly, the fear passes and there is no fear there, they just don't do it when they realize, on their own, that they have control of those consequences. They just choose not to do things that cause discomfort. There is no more fear of it. It is like, do you fear walking next to a street with cars doing 60 mph going by? No fear, you just stay on the sidewalk.


Fuk me...it's the cut and paste ghost !!!

Of course there is going back !!! You just have to take it forward Lol

How you doing Don, long time no hear ?


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## vicki dickey

Don you echo my horse trainer daughter. She refuses to use food as a reward in training. She points out that you do not train horses that way you should not have to train a dog that way. She has a 6 month old lab puppy that is trained beautifully which backs up her training method. She says he does what she asks the first time because he knows what will happen if he doesnt. She has never mistreated him, in fact, the pup adores her. And he carries out her requests happily and quickly. Alas she is tougher than me-I am the one with the big soft heart. However I am impressed with her pup and have started to incorporate her ideas-it aint easy .


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## maggie fraser

vicki dickey said:


> Don you echo my horse trainer daughter. She refuses to use food as a reward in training. She points out that you do not train horses that way you should not have to train a dog that way. .


I wouldn't listen to your daughter Vickey, she has no concept of what she is talking about. Of course you don't train horses with food. It has nothing to do with 'refusing' to train horses with food. That is a first for me....I learn something new here everyday !!


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## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> Don you echo my horse trainer daughter. She refuses to use food as a reward in training. She points out that you do not train horses that way you should not have to train a dog that way. She has a 6 month old lab puppy that is trained beautifully which backs up her training method. She says he does what she asks the first time because he knows what will happen if he doesnt. She has never mistreated him, in fact, the pup adores her. And he carries out her requests happily and quickly. Alas she is tougher than me-I am the one with the big soft heart. However I am impressed with her pup and have started to incorporate her ideas-it aint easy .


Why does she refuse to use food for horses? There are certainly a growing number of clicker trainers that use food rewards for horses.


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## maggie fraser

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Why does she refuse to use food for horses? There are certainly a growing number of clicker trainers that use food rewards for horses.


Tell me more Maren, can you elaborate ?

Sorry for off topic.


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## vicki dickey

Lisa would be laughing her head off over this. You dont give a horse a carrot if he sidepasses or does a 360 right. You pat them on the neck and go on. If you reward them at all its when the work is over you take them on a trail ride, give them a good grooming after the ride and return them to their stall or pasture. And I DO think she knows what she is talking about only because she has proven it with her own dog. And this is not the only dog she has owned and trained. I have been around a lot of horse trainers in my life and I do not know of one that bated or lured with an apple or carrot. A horse is an intelligent animal as is the dog so I amn ot sure there is a difference there. I find it amazing that you think a horse should have bait to learn. I use to show horses and it was never done.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Sure, you can google "clicker training for horses" and you should get some good info. As a disclaimer, I'm not a big horse person and have not really formally trained horses, but I had to out of necessity and safety for two very pushy patients I ended up with last year on my equine rotation. One was a 27 year old thoroughbred gelding I was in charge of for 10 days and another was a 3 year old quarter horse gelding I had for 3 weeks and both with poor ground manners (pushy, liked to throw their weight around), but good food drive. The TB could be lunged a bit to get some energy out, but the QH had a nasty laceration down to the cannon bone that involved the fetlock joint, so he was in a cast and had too much energy from having to be strictly stall rested. 

I taught both of them to back, not turn their butts to me when I had to get into the stall, and to take treats nicely. That's what seems to scare people the most about trying it with horses is that they'll mob you for the food (just like pups who are learning it too), but be consistent and reward what you want and they will start to understand. It's just teaching them a form of communication, no different than any other animal. Not baiting or luring either. There seems to be a bit more free shaping with horses.


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## maggie fraser

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sure, you can google "clicker training for horses" and you should get some good info. As a disclaimer, I'm not a big horse person and have not really formally trained horses, but I had to out of necessity and safety for two very pushy patients I ended up with last year on my equine rotation. One was a 27 year old thoroughbred gelding I was in charge of for 10 days and another was a 3 year old quarter horse gelding I had for 3 weeks and both with poor ground manners (pushy, liked to throw their weight around), but good food drive. The TB could be lunged a bit to get some energy out, but the QH had a nasty laceration down to the cannon bone that involved the fetlock joint, so he was in a cast and had too much energy from having to be strictly stall rested.
> 
> I taught both of them to back, not turn their butts to me when I had to get into the stall, and to take treats nicely. That's what seems to scare people the most about trying it with horses is that they'll mob you for the food (just like pups who are learning it too), but be consistent and reward what you want and they will start to understand. It's just teaching them a form of communication, no different than any other animal. Not baiting or luring either. There seems to be a bit more free shaping with horses.


In other words, you don't know what you're talking about ? :-D


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## maggie fraser

vicki dickey said:


> Lisa would be laughing her head off over this. You dont give a horse a carrot if he sidepasses or does a 360 right. You pat them on the neck and go on. If you reward them at all its when the work is over you take them on a trail ride, give them a good grooming after the ride and return them to their stall or pasture. And I DO think she knows what she is talking about only because she has proven it with her own dog. And this is not the only dog she has owned and trained. I have been around a lot of horse trainers in my life and I do not know of one that bated or lured with an apple or carrot. A horse is an intelligent animal as is the dog so I amn ot sure there is a difference there. I find it amazing that you think a horse should have bait to learn. I use to show horses and it was never done.


Vickey, give it a rest. There are horse trainers on this board you know.


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## Maren Bell Jones

maggie fraser said:


> In other words, you don't know what you're talking about ? :-D


Well, the fact I am not a super horse woman is probably good indication it can work nicely since I never got bit or kicked by two horses that could have been quite dangerous, yes? If I tried to "discipline" the big TB with a smack or something like I've seen others do, I would have gotten creamed. He wasn't a very nice horse, which is too bad because of his high food drive, he probably could have been. If you can teach a tiger or orca whale, you can surely do the same with a horse. I would like my own horses in the future and I'll definitely use clicker training to teach them ground manners. Here's a good article. 

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3139


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## maggie fraser

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well, the fact I am not a super horse woman is probably good indication it can work nicely since I never got bit or kicked by two horses that could have been quite dangerous, yes? If I tried to "discipline" the big TB with a smack or something like I've seen others do, I would have gotten creamed. He wasn't a very nice horse, which is too bad because of his high food drive, he probably could have been. If you can teach a tiger or orca whale, you can surely do the same with a horse. I would like my own horses in the future and I'll definitely use clicker training to teach them ground manners. Here's a good article.
> 
> http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3139


We;re talking about training, not manners as such. Manners is training I suppose, won't disagree there..vickey was originally talking about loose lead heeling or some fkn thing thing I've forgotten now. There is NO comparison to what we are discussing.

You can train fk all when you are on a horses back with food...believe me. There is much covered or can be in ground work, but the real training goes from on top, not on the ground with food. There is not a comparison to the discussion in this thread....that was my point.


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## Maren Bell Jones

As the vet, I'm not the one riding the clients' horses, so I don't really care how pretty their dressage work is or hunter jumper work is getting along. I just don't want to get kicked, bit, or killed doing a physical, drawing blood, or giving vaccines. The farrier probably thinks the same while he's working on shoeing. Ground manners, whether dogs or any other species, is absolutely training and key to everything, just like dogs. Doesn't really make me want to take a horse out on a trail ride or to a show if he's going to be a jerk about loading or having his feet picked or anything else. Did you read that article? Apparently you can indeed train actual performance stuff with clicker training, not just ground manners. I think people just need to be open minded. It's different now even how it was only 5 years ago with dogs.


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## maggie fraser

Maren Bell Jones said:


> As the vet, I'm not the one riding the clients' horses, so I don't really care how pretty their dressage work is or hunter jumper work is getting along. I just don't want to get kicked, bit, or killed doing a physical, drawing blood, or giving vaccines. The farrier probably thinks the same while he's working on shoeing. Ground manners, whether dogs or any other species, is absolutely training and key to everything, just like dogs. Doesn't really make me want to take a horse out on a trail ride or to a show if he's going to be a jerk about loading or having his feet picked or anything else. Did you read that article? Apparently you can indeed train actual performance stuff with clicker training, not just ground manners. I think people just need to be open minded. It's different now even how it was only 5 years ago with dogs.


 
Maren you are arguing over something you know little about. I can tell you now, I can train ground manners in the right environment with one index finger, sometimes two. No need for a clicker 'cos I have two fingers, a voice and a very sensitive nature. I'm not arguing a clicker argument in horse training here. This is not about clicker training.


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## Faisal Khan

maggie fraser said:


> In other words, you don't know what you're talking about ?
> Maren you are arguing over something you know little about.


Lets get ready to RUMBLE.


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## maggie fraser

Faisal Khan said:


> Lets get ready to RUMBLE.


K then Faisal, what's your input ??


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## Maren Bell Jones

I'm very glad you can teach ground manners to a horse with one finger. Maybe you can charge people with difficult horses hundreds of dollars for a weekend clinic and show off your horse whispering magic. Never said clicker training is the only way to go. But it's a great tool to communicate and teach without force...and a difficult horse can apply a lot more force to me than I can to them. 8-[ As they say, you can't put a prong collar on a killer whale.


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## Faisal Khan

maggie fraser said:


> K then Faisal, what's your input ??


I'm just enjoying my Sunday after excellent morning training sessions (with dogs). My wife's the horse trainer/competitor, I'll ask her if you send me a question.


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## maggie fraser

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm very glad you can teach ground manners to a horse with one finger. Maybe you can charge people with difficult horses hundreds of dollars for a weekend clinic and show off your horse whispering magic. Never said clicker training is the only way to go. But it's a great tool to communicate and teach without force...and a difficult horse can apply a lot more force to me than I can to them. 8-[ As they say, you can't put a prong collar on a killer whale.


 
Maren, what is your problem ? I have relayed experience I have from working in a large commercial horse yard for one. Not some isolated horse scenario here or there. You will have no idea whatsoever how many big or tuff horses have tried pushing me around...indeed if they were trying to push me around.

There are lots of ways for teachng horses without force....you wouldn't know....that is my point.

I'm not going to argue with you, this is becoming all about an argument and about you, not about what we were discussing. If you intend on practicising as a professional, you will need to get over yourself.


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## Faisal Khan

Ok so I asked my wife and here is her input,

1. To teach manners you never use food/clicker if training/competing at high level
2. You use food/clicker to teach cute lil tricks like bowing, spanish walk etc after ground rules and respect have been established otherwise you are asking for trouble.

Ground rules and respect are established with Mr whip and sometimes an e-collar. You make the horse comfortable for desired behavior and uncomfortable for undesired behavior.

She competes in 3 day eventing (Rolex) and dressage. Her old horse was a Trakhner and her current one is a Dutch Warmblood.


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## maggie fraser

Faisal Khan said:


> Ok so I asked my wife and here is her input,
> 
> 1. To teach manners you never use food/clicker if training/competing at high level
> 2. You use food/clicker to teach cute lil tricks like bowing, spanish walk etc after ground rules and respect have been established otherwise you are asking for trouble.
> 
> Ground rules and respect are established with Mr whip and sometimes an e-collar. You make the horse comfortable for desired behavior and uncomfortable for undesired behavior.
> 
> She competes in 3 day eventing (Rolex) and dressage. Her old horse was a Trakhner and her current one is a Dutch Warmblood.


I have never ever seen an ecollar used on a horse....ever. The thought horrifies me. I've seen an electric buzzer applied to the head by some f*** wits, and I've seen the whip used by desperados. German and Dutch horses needing that shit...she must have been ripped off! :-D


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## Faisal Khan

That makes 2 of you that don't know what they are talking about, where is Jeff when you need him!


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## Maren Bell Jones

maggie fraser said:


> Maren, what is your problem ? I have relayed experience I have from working in a large commercial horse yard for one. Not some isolated horse scenario here or there. You will have no idea whatsoever how many big or tuff horses have tried pushing me around...indeed if they were trying to push me around.
> 
> There are lots of ways for teachng horses without force....you wouldn't know....that is my point.
> 
> I'm not going to argue with you, this is becoming all about an argument and about you, not about what we were discussing. If you intend on practicising as a professional, you will need to get over yourself.


Get over myself? I just don't want to get killed by a horse, especially doing something routine. I could care less how nice of a 3 day eventer or dressage or hunter jumper or whatever else kind of horse it is. 

My problem is saying it can't or shouldn't be done. Why not? Why not challenge the status quo of what can or can't be done in horses? If you never try, you get no innovation. People said the same thing even 5-10 years ago with dog training with markers ("oh, it's just for cute tricks, not serious competition or problem behavior") and look where we are now. I'm talking ground manners training for horses, not training for eventing, because that's what Vickey seems to be having a problem with in her pup: loose leash walking, a ground manners problem. Same thing with ground manners in a horse.


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## maggie fraser

Faisal Khan said:


> That makes 2 of you that don't know what they are talking about, where is Jeff when you need him!


Do you know what you are talking about Faisal ? Oh yeah, course you do, your wife told you so ??

BTW, as I recollect, Jeff knew nought all about horses.

She's got herself import crap ? Hasn't she ?? :-D


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## maggie fraser

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm talking ground manners training for horses, not training for eventing, because that's what Vickey seems to be having a problem with in her pup: loose leash walking, a ground manners problem. Same thing with ground manners in a horse.


Ok, I think i'm getting you now. The very first thing a young horse is taught in my experience, is how to walk on a halter (loose lead heeling for the young dog). It is not hard to teach a horse to walk on a halter beside the handler.....it is nothing compared to teaching a young dog in drive to loose heel. Even if you get a mature adult who appears to have never worn a halter before....there is no brutality necessary, you just have to hang on for the ride initially. Apples and oranges I think you call it.


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## Faisal Khan

maggie fraser said:


> Do you know what you are talking about Faisal ? Oh yeah, course you do, your wife told you so ??
> 
> BTW, as I recollect, Jeff knew nought all about horses.
> 
> She's got herself import crap ? Hasn't she ?? :-D


If you say so, hehe.


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## vicki dickey

Sorry I brought up the comparison of horse and dog training. I just was trying to say that Don had a valid post and that my daughter is a good example of it in the way she trains horses and dogs. Lisa does not use brute force to train either. She works with all breeds of horses-even those big Germain 17 plus hand kind. She demands respect. You must have respect when working with big animals. Her horses are trained with a firm hand but a fair one. They will lounge without a lounge line or a whip with voice commands. She can ride them with or without a bridle and usually is bareback. Her horses love her and will run across a field to her when they see her. Her dog never leaves her side and is well trained as well. She has worked with boxers, heelers,a pit bull mix, rat terrier and now a lab. All without treats or clickers. 

Back to my orginal post about the puppy pulling relentlessly on the leash and needing help. Joby wrote out something so simple. I did exactly as he explained and in about 5 minutes that puppy was watching me and more concerned about where or what I was doing instead of what he wanted to do. Thank you Joby again for the great post. Oh and we were successful without a clicker or a treat. Imagine that! He did get a good boy and then a session of tennis ball fun.


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## Don Turnipseed

Faisal Khan said:


> Ok so I asked my wife and here is her input,
> 
> 1. To teach manners you never use food/clicker if training/competing at high level
> 2. You use food/clicker to teach cute lil tricks like bowing, spanish walk etc after ground rules and respect have been established otherwise you are asking for trouble.
> 
> Ground rules and respect are established with Mr whip and sometimes an e-collar. You make the horse comfortable for desired behavior and uncomfortable for undesired behavior.
> 
> She competes in 3 day eventing (Rolex) and dressage. Her old horse was a Trakhner and her current one is a Dutch Warmblood.


In short, food is used for training tricks....ie....trick training. Thank you Faisal


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## Don Turnipseed

vicki dickey said:


> Don you echo my horse trainer daughter. She says he does what she asks the first time because he knows what will happen if he doesnt. *She has never mistreated him, in fact, the pup adores her. And he carries out her requests happily and quickly. Alas she is tougher than me-I am the one with the big soft heart.* However I am impressed with her pup and have started to incorporate her ideas-it aint easy .


I don't understand where your coming from here Vicki. In one sentence you say the horse trainer has never mistreated her dog and her dog is very obedient. In the next sentence or so, you imply you can't train that way because you have a soft heart. You have been drinking to much possey kool aid Vicki. Not using treats does not make training abusive. Being abusive will get you squat outside of a cringing dog. Being firm is not abusive. All those that say dogs correctly trained have no zip is because they didn't do it right......plain and simple. Training dogs was never rocket science. It is common sense. What I put in bold above is short of common sense. You should be aware, if you start with treats, your going to have to continue with treats. The first big mistake made is even starting them because there is no going back.


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## Jackie Lockard

maggie fraser said:


> I have never ever seen an ecollar used on a horse....ever. The thought horrifies me. I've seen an electric buzzer applied to the head by some f*** wits, and I've seen the whip used by desperados. German and Dutch horses needing that shit...she must have been ripped off! :-D



http://www.tthorse.com/ 

Had a pretty good laugh the first time I saw it. Then I realized they were serious.


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## vicki dickey

Well Don I do enjoy a good glass of wine with dinner but what I meant was I did hand out a cookie for a sit or a down and I shamelessy lured him with a spoon of peanut butter when I started to heel. I should have just said good boy. However did you know if you pay to go to obedience class you are told to bring string cheese, hotdogs or puperoni to class. Its right there on the worksheet they send home with you. The peanutbutter spoon was handed to me in class. They encourage treats for baits, reward and lures as many people on here do. I am questioning that practice now because I can see it isnt really needed. Its hard to change. I am trying hard to keep an open mind to all types of training. Your loose heel method was the greatest. If you ever write a book -I would buy it.


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## Jackie Lockard

vicki dickey said:


> They encourage treats for baits, reward and lures as many people on here do. I am questioning that practice now because I can see it isnt really needed. Its hard to change. I am trying hard to keep an open mind to all types of training.


Personally, my question is what is your goal? You have competition obedience written by your name. What are the people taking home world championships doing? Particularly the people bringing home multiple championships.

You can look at other sports too, but I know people like to throw that excuse around ("well that person doesn't do x sport") so you don't have to.


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## vicki dickey

I show obedience, rally and agility. I was thinking about all the training methods. All have merits and I am sure each have had success or they wouldnt be recognized. Maybe it should come down to the dog. What is working best for the dog you are working with. This puppy actually did better without the bait. He seemed to have more respect for me after using Don's method. Would that work as well with a different exercise? Dont know yet. 
I show my dogs and enjoy the competition. To me showing is way more than bringing home a ribbon or a title.


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## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> Sorry I brought up the comparison of horse and dog training. I just was trying to say that Don had a valid post and that my daughter is a good example of it in the way she trains horses and dogs. Lisa does not use brute force to train either. She works with all breeds of horses-even those big Germain 17 plus hand kind. She demands respect. You must have respect when working with big animals. Her horses are trained with a firm hand but a fair one. They will lounge without a lounge line or a whip with voice commands. She can ride them with or without a bridle and usually is bareback. Her horses love her and will run across a field to her when they see her. Her dog never leaves her side and is well trained as well. She has worked with boxers, heelers,a pit bull mix, rat terrier and now a lab. All without treats or clickers.


Good for her. A classmate of mine who is more experienced with horses tried to "be firm" with a 2 year old Trakehner with no manners when I was helping her with her patient and she got stomped on. That's something I try to avoid.  The problem with some of the natural horsemanship/Perelli stuff is you need to be extremely good at reading horses, which takes experience and a natural sensitivity which not everyone has. Have you seen the movie "Buck" yet about Buck Brannamen? He has a way with horses (as did his predecessor Ray Hunt) but if you watch the videos of the people in his clinic, not everyone has that natural ability and sensitivity. Same with Cesar Millan and dogs. He obviously has something going for him if he can control that many pit bulls all living in the same area together. But half his shows, especially the later episodes, the people will say how much they watch and love Cesar's methods, yet their own dog is out of control. Not everyone has that ability. They try his more physical methods and the dog is either WTF?! or may bite if they try alpha rolling like he does. 

The nice thing about marker training is that it demystifies a lot of dog training. Putting in practice is actually really easy once you get past the terminology. It doesn't have the mysticism in it. 



> Back to my orginal post about the puppy pulling relentlessly on the leash and needing help. Joby wrote out something so simple. I did exactly as he explained and in about 5 minutes that puppy was watching me and more concerned about where or what I was doing instead of what he wanted to do. Thank you Joby again for the great post. Oh and we were successful without a clicker or a treat. Imagine that! He did get a good boy and then a *session of tennis ball fun*.


There you go, that was the reward. Doesn't matter if it's a filet mignon or a squeaky toy or fetch or whatever used as the reward, as long as the dog finds it rewarding. And you don't *have* to train with markers. But it does give a level of precision and communication with the animal that are not as easy or clear with other methods. If you'd like to come out to Wentzville sometime to see how we train with markers in protection, you're more than welcome to.  I use an e-collar for certain applications too (mostly keeping my dog clean in bitework, very little in obedience).


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## Jackie Lockard

vicki dickey said:


> I show obedience, rally and agility. I was thinking about all the training methods. All have merits and I am sure each have had success or they wouldnt be recognized. Maybe it should come down to the dog. What is working best for the dog you are working with. This puppy actually did better without the bait. He seemed to have more respect for me after using Don's method. Would that work as well with a different exercise? Dont know yet.
> I show my dogs and enjoy the competition. To me showing is way more than bringing home a ribbon or a title.



Question still stands. Susan Garrett does both agility and obedience, as well as putting priority on general 
'being a pet around the home'. Here's a recall video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA58RN_78h0


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## Rivek Irwin

Just putting this out there: In the 20+ years I've been riding horses (the bulk of that on a semi or professional level), and with all of my training (I was trained by some of the best trainers in the world)...I have never once seen someone use an e-collar on a horse. In fact the thought of it horrifies me. I also have no idea WHY you would even need to use one, or what purpose it would serve.

I am not a tall guy, I'm actually very short. And I was really short as a kid. I broke my first colt from the ground up at 13 before I was even 5 feet tall and he was a big rangy 16 hand stud colt picked up mostly feral (at 2 verging on three he'd never even worn a halter, much less been halter broke). And not once did I have to resort to something as aggressive as an e-collar to get a handle on a "big tough horse".


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## Don Turnipseed

I don't know how this thread has gotten so carried away with horse training, but, any trainer worth his/her salt should be aware that they have had shock collars available for horses for a long time. If they aren't aware of it, they are not much of a trainer. Getting back to dogs, I used shock collars for a short time. It was kind of like using treats in reverse.....two exrtremes. I haven't used a shock collar in years, never used treats. Both are tools used by those that don't really understand the animals they are working with.


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## Peter Cavallaro

if you ever sat on a horse in a full bolt you would know why they don't use electricity on them. 

apart from all the graphic pictures of dog bites horses are in fact responsible for far worse injuries - they bite harder than any dog and keep spinal injury wards in business.


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## Rivek Irwin

Peter Cavallaro said:


> if you ever sat on a horse in a full bolt you would know why they don't use electricity on them.
> 
> Apart from all the graphic pictures of dog bites horses are in fact responsible for far worse injuries - they bite harder than any dog and keep spinal injury wards in business.


Indeed, Peter, indeed. I've known and lost numerous people to horse related injuries. 

As for a questioning of my experience with horses, I assure you it's a safe bet I've got more then most people can even dream about. I was a serious competitive world class equestrian for several decades. I left horse training full time after a severe knee injury left me half crippled. 

But in all of my years of experience I've never seen an ecollar used, or even heard of it until recently. The fact it would be used at all just boggles my mind. I'm sure there are plenty of other things in the horse world done that would make my head spin, but this happens to be the one that did it today. 

My biggest problem with the e-collar on a horse is I can not for the life of me figure out WHY it would be necessary. I understand and have used e-collars on dogs and can understand their full application (though I personally do not use them as a regular part of my training program). I just can not see the appropriate application of it in the horse world, though I can imagine all sorts of inappropriate applications. 

And suggesting that because someone uses an ecollar on horses it is a valid training technique is nonsense. That's like suggesting beating your dog is a valid training technique because people have done it. Soaring (the practice of putting chains on a Tennessee Walking Horses ankles to cause painful irritations that resort in permanent scar tissue) used to be common practice amongst gaited horse trainers, certainly did not make it appropriate, or even necessary (and has since been outlawed by breed registries, trainer registries and in some states can be considered illegal). 

So really I just want to know why someone would ever have 'need' of an ecollar for training a horse.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Rivek i think i was *supporting* your argument??

lets not get to uppity on the training though - have worked in most areas of horse training and the cruelty is every bit as bad as dog training and often worse - it would actually would be a difficult to say where the most brutal training techniques are based in horse or dog training - due to the money involved i would say horse trainers have more systematic cruelty but due to the ease involved i would argue dog trainers are the worst - tough question to answer but i digress.


key thing is when you look at trainer you gotts say to yourself; is the person a MOFO or not.


you ask why is it (e-collars) *necessary, they aren't*, some people just can't be bothered learning how to train though - the modern saying - "convenience or death"


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## Sara Waters

Rivek Irwin said:


> Indeed, Peter, indeed. I've known and lost numerous people to horse related injuries.
> 
> As for a questioning of my experience with horses, I assure you it's a safe bet I've got more then most people can even dream about. I was a serious competitive world class equestrian for several decades. I left horse training full time after a severe knee injury left me half crippled.
> 
> But in all of my years of experience I've never seen an ecollar used, or even heard of it until recently. The fact it would be used at all just boggles my mind. I'm sure there are plenty of other things in the horse world done that would make my head spin, but this happens to be the one that did it today.


I am with you on this one Rivek. I have ridden and trained horses all my life including track work and showjumping (although not world class level LOL) although I once strapped for one of our Olympic team members years ago when he was breaking in young race horses and have dealt with some difficult horses in my time and the thought of an e collar sounds insane to me.


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## Rivek Irwin

Oh, Peter, you were. I didn't meant that whole post to come off as directed at you. I should have made it more clear the first paragraph/sentence was to you, and the rest was directed at Don something or another. My apologies for the confusion. And I agree it would be hard pressed to determine which side (horses or dogs) has more innate cruelty in their methods.


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## Sara Waters

Some of the top obedience competitors in Australia train with toys and treats. Year after year dog after dog they always seem to win with very high scores, and they travel all around Australia to the major events and always seem to win, their dogs perform with joy and flair. I have trained with them as they are part of our dog trialing community and they most definitely train with food and toys. I did go to a training course with one and she indicated that she gets her dogs totally obsessed with a toy or food and transfers the value on to performing. She uses jackpots and surprises her dogs with unexpected rewards hidden around the obedience track when training. She and several others seem to get amazing results and they also win in agility. They are driven to win but their dogs are part of their life as well, maybe they just have that elusive ability to get the very best out of their dogs. I dont know about the whole respect thing but their dogs are certainly driven and perhaps conditioned to perform at a hight level and seem perfectly in tune with their handlers out in the trial ring.


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## Peter Cavallaro

i think the answer is linked to commodification value - if there is an industry that can be supported by an activity then the MOFO's will come out - funy thing is; if everyone around you is acting at some level of cruelty and you copied it from them and they copied it from someone else who saw someone else do it then then at some point it stops being cruel it just becomes a training tool / technique. 

things can dissapear just as quick though, look at the public attitude toward circus animals/training for centuries it considered good family fun, hell i used to love watching the "lion tamer" as a boy. now the old-school circus is generally considered as a symbol of ignorance and poor taste - maybe there is hope.


----------



## Bob Scott

Sara Waters said:


> Some of the top obedience competitors in Australia train with toys and treats. Year after year dog after dog they always seem to win with very high scores, and they travel all around Australia to the major events and always seem to win, their dogs perform with joy and flair. I have trained with them as they are part of our dog trialing community and they most definitely train with food and toys. I did go to a training course with one and she indicated that she gets her dogs totally obsessed with a toy or food and transfers the value on to performing. She uses jackpots and surprises her dogs with unexpected rewards hidden around the obedience track when training. She and several others seem to get amazing results and they also win in agility. They are driven to win but their dogs are part of their life as well, maybe they just have that elusive ability to get the very best out of their dogs. I dont know about the whole respect thing but their dogs are certainly driven and perhaps conditioned to perform at a hight level and seem perfectly in tune with their handlers out in the trial ring.



Ditto!
I trained for yrs without clickers and treats. Never had a dog refuse a come command even with distractions.
Now I'm all about markers and reward. STILL never had a dog refuse a come command even with distractions. 
:-K :-k .....Could it be that it's more about the trainer then the method? :-k  :twisted:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto!
> 
> :-K :-k .....*Could it be that it's more about the trainer then the method*? :-k  :twisted:


 
Chi grasshopper ........:grin: or just cheese


----------



## Sara Waters

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto!
> I trained for yrs without clickers and treats. Never had a dog refuse a come command even with distractions.
> Now I'm all about markers and reward. STILL never had a dog refuse a come command even with distractions.
> :-K :-k .....Could it be that it's more about the trainer then the method? :-k  :twisted:


Funny you say that. One particlar top competitor comes to mind - she has been taking major championships with her dogs since the eighties and has gone through the same changes and a couple more top competitors spring to mind.

Doesnt seem to matter what discipline she does and she has done quite a few over the years with different breeds of dogs and she seems to excel in them all.


----------



## Bob Scott

Sara Waters said:


> Funny you say that. One particlar top competitor comes to mind - she has been taking major championships with her dogs since the eighties and has gone through the same changes and a couple more top competitors spring to mind.
> 
> Doesnt seem to matter what discipline she does and she has done quite a few over the years with different breeds of dogs and she seems to excel in them all.



I started in competition in the early 80s. Still a lot of familiar faces when I last went in the ob ring in 07 and most, not all have adjusted methods with the times. 
My mentor had MANY top winning OTCH Dalmations during the 70s-80s. She still has Dals but has also put an OTCH on a rescue Shar Pe (sp) and a rescue Pug. 
I still heard the same old excuses for loosing from everyone though! :lol:


----------



## brad robert

Sara Waters said:


> Some of the top obedience competitors in Australia train with toys and treats. Year after year dog after dog they always seem to win with very high scores, and they travel all around Australia to the major events and always seem to win, their dogs perform with joy and flair. I have trained with them as they are part of our dog trialing community and they most definitely train with food and toys. I did go to a training course with one and she indicated that she gets her dogs totally obsessed with a toy or food and transfers the value on to performing. She uses jackpots and surprises her dogs with unexpected rewards hidden around the obedience track when training. She and several others seem to get amazing results and they also win in agility. They are driven to win but their dogs are part of their life as well, maybe they just have that elusive ability to get the very best out of their dogs. I dont know about the whole respect thing but their dogs are certainly driven and perhaps conditioned to perform at a hight level and seem perfectly in tune with their handlers out in the trial ring.


Very true till just recently i was training with a group of people and the lead trainer has won many titles and australian titles? for OB and never saw one bit of force used in any of there methods all food and toys.Your right sara for these people its a huge part of there life and lots of travel.


----------



## maggie fraser

Sara Waters said:


> I am with you on this one Rivek. I have ridden and trained horses all my life including track work and showjumping (although not world class level LOL) although I once strapped for one of our Olympic team members years ago when he was breaking in young race horses and have dealt with some difficult horses in my time and the thought of an e collar sounds insane to me.


Sara, in Australia, that wouldn't have been Greg Eurell would it ??


----------



## Sara Waters

maggie fraser said:


> Sara, in Australia, that wouldn't have been Greg Eurell would it ??


No, a very talented rider and top showjumper named Laurie Lever. He would be in his sixties now. He had a way with horses that man. I saw him on television many years after I worked for him representing Australia in some international event overseas. I think it was the olympics, but could have been some other event.


----------



## vicki dickey

Jackie you said your question still stands and I believe that question was what were my goals. My goals showing wise are obedience, rally and agility. Day to day living these dogs live in my home and I expect them to respect my stuff and behave. Sometimes they go to work with me. I work at a country club in a barn with horses, club members, their dogs, cats and kids. They have to have manners, a great recall, great stays, etc.
The recall video was nice. All of my dogs have excellant recalls. In the ring Zak was so fast to come in to me people would gasp and I would hope he could stop in time -at work they must come at all times on the very first call and I dont care what they are doing at the time. And they do and I do not carry Puperoni in my pocket for them or a toy to play with. They will get a good boy/girl.
My goals are a well trained and balanced dog that can show, behave around other dogs, animals and people and be a good house pet as well. I guess that is asking a lot but they get free medical care, housing and great food. 

Again I did not mean for this post to go to the horses. My daughter does not use any cruelty in working with either dogs or horses and has even stopped showing because of the cruelty some trainers and exhibitors practice to win. She does not use bait or lures or food rewards -that does not make her cruel. I use to watch her show horses and when the class was over and the horses were lined up before the judge while the other riders were fussing with positioning their horse or themselves she would be reaching forward to give the horse a well deserved pat. Believe it or not that "pat" rom their owner can mean more to a dog or horse than that piece of carrot or hotdog.


----------



## Dave Colborn

vicki dickey said:


> Believe it or not that "pat" from their owner can mean more to a dog or horse than that piece of carrot or hot dog.


You don't know this, you are guessing because no one knows what a dog thinks. The dog determines what he or she values more. A pat or a hot dog.

I don't care how you train one way or the other. But...



vicki dickey said:


> I am torn between two training methods and would like to hear other trainer's ideas.



Don't ask a question leading people to believe you are "Torn" when you already have your answer. And don't lead us to believe you made a decision in three days from your original post, after trying something Joby suggested (a valid method) for two days. 

You already have your mind made up so why are you asking? Pot stirring? 

It is obvious both methods work and people have varying levels of success with both methods depending on them, their dogs, their venue, etc. 

So that makes me want to know, what is your REAL agenda?


----------



## Faisal Khan

What do you feed your dogs?


----------



## Faisal Khan

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto!
> I trained for yrs without clickers and treats. Never had a dog refuse a come command even with distractions.
> Now I'm all about markers and reward. STILL never had a dog refuse a come command even with distractions.
> :-K :-k .....Could it be that it's more about the trainer then the method? :-k  :twisted:


Bob, just curious, did yyou go beyond club level competition with your SchH dog? I hear that top level competitors pretty much all use force. Might be that no force gets you the titles but not the scores that the high level competitors want?


----------



## Jackie Lockard

Faisal Khan said:


> Bob, just curious, did yyou go beyond club level competition with your SchH dog? I hear that top level competitors pretty much all use force. Might be that no force gets you the titles but not the scores that the high level competitors want?



I've worked with several top level Sch trainers and none of them have used force in training. One of them even has a series of DVDs...obedience without conflict.


----------



## Joby Becker

vicki dickey said:


> Sorry I brought up the comparison of horse and dog training. I just was trying to say that Don had a valid post and that my daughter is a good example of it in the way she trains horses and dogs. Lisa does not use brute force to train either. She works with all breeds of horses-even those big Germain 17 plus hand kind. She demands respect. You must have respect when working with big animals. Her horses are trained with a firm hand but a fair one. They will lounge without a lounge line or a whip with voice commands. She can ride them with or without a bridle and usually is bareback. Her horses love her and will run across a field to her when they see her. Her dog never leaves her side and is well trained as well. She has worked with boxers, heelers,a pit bull mix, rat terrier and now a lab. All without treats or clickers.
> 
> Back to my orginal post about the puppy pulling relentlessly on the leash and needing help. Joby wrote out something so simple. I did exactly as he explained and in about 5 minutes that puppy was watching me and more concerned about where or what I was doing instead of what he wanted to do. Thank you Joby again for the great post. Oh and we were successful without a clicker or a treat. Imagine that! He did get a good boy and then a session of tennis ball fun.


Boy people can make anything complicated..

Like I said in the PM, Pet Training 101, not old...not new...just works,as long as the pup is old enough, unless the dog is a basket case.
for just informal walks. Dont use formal commands (informal commands are fine).

When training pet dogs for OB, that method usually works with even the craziest pet dog, in a few minutes...unless the dog tries to bite ya,or crumbles...

Just a few little short informal walks a day, dont get too crazy with it...lol, you are not teaching formal or precision, just manners...you dont need the pup to be a "soldier" on informal walks...


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Faisal Khan said:


> What do you feed your dogs?


Don't have to feed them any more Faisal. They are in training and get plemty to eat. LOL


----------



## Sara Waters

vicki dickey said:


> Again I did not mean for this post to go to the horses. My daughter does not use any cruelty in working with either dogs or horses and has even stopped showing because of the cruelty some trainers and exhibitors practice to win. She does not use bait or lures or food rewards -that does not make her cruel. I use to watch her show horses and when the class was over and the horses were lined up before the judge while the other riders were fussing with positioning their horse or themselves she would be reaching forward to give the horse a well deserved pat. Believe it or not that "pat" rom their owner can mean more to a dog or horse than that piece of carrot or hotdog.


Vicki I have never in my life used food rewards when training a horse. Gentle hands on the mouth, clear but sensitive leg aids and seat, talking sometimes and patience to show the horse what you wanted along with some fun usually worked well. Sometimes a good seat, balance and the ability to remain calm and confident and ride out the odd buck also was required at times. A horse will soon get the measure of who you are.

The use of toys and treats in training of dogs does not mean that you have to carry them around in your pocket for your dog to behave or perform. If that is the case then you have not understood their use.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler

Jackie Lockard said:


> I've worked with several top level Sch trainers and none of them have used force in training. One of them even has a series of DVDs...obedience without conflict.


That is funny. 

Laura


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't have to feed them any more Faisal. They are in training and get plemty to eat.



Glad to see you got your dogs in training, Don. Using your food in their training instead of giving it to them in the yard just for being alive, crapping and breeding is a great idea too. Some people call that a "no free lunch program" so I don't think you are inventing anything new. Good to hear you are growing and changing, though.

Post some video of the training and let us know how it goes.


Sincerely,

Dave Colborn


----------



## Don Turnipseed

"Sarchasm"...new spelling that indicates the great void that exists between the delivering party and the one not understanding it is sarcasm.

Funny, it seems the only way to grow is to do things the way you think they should be done Dave. Am I right. LOL I will never spend my time teaching multiple exercises to "train around" one problem that is easily corrected by simply correcting it.


----------



## Joby Becker

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> That is funny.
> 
> Laura


Inside Joke????


----------



## Connie Sutherland

> ... I will never spend my time teaching multiple exercises to "train around" one problem that is easily corrected by simply correcting it.


I didn't see a problem to train around in the O.P. as much as I saw training that had not been done, and questions about "correcting" for something not yet taught.

_"She took the leash and the puppy and every time he would pull he would get a jerk correction."_

The O.P. had not trained the dog to walk with a loose leash. Teaching something is not, IMHO, "training around a problem." 


Although all training is "training around" something else, right?

When I teach them where they must be and what they must do when I am preparing dog dishes, I guess that too is "training around a problem." 

When I teach my dogs the behavior I want when people are invited to come in the door, I guess that's "training around" a barking, jumping ruckus. 

Of course, it requires doing some training. :lol:


----------



## vicki dickey

In fact Dave I was torn. I had one person telling me no treats. Training with treats will get me no where because what happens when the treats arent there. And in my obedience class I have a trainer using treats in every possible way-baiting, luring, rewarding. Both of these people are successful I have a puppy -a clean slate-to train and I asked the people on this forum their opinions. Is that an agenda Dave? I was having a problem with loose heeling in particular and was told in an easy to follow way how to fix it. It worked and I am grateful. As I was reading what everyone wrote, I could see benefits to both ways of training and I also can see how each person feels their way is the best and to some the only way. Some people started one way, tried another and found that worked as well. From what I read both ways can be successful, sometimes mixing them both can be successful and every dog is different and do what works best for the dog. I apologised for the horse reference and never meant it to develop into a debate of sorts. So my list of things to be considered or my agenda has been filled Okay Dave?
Thank you all for your advice and help. 
And Joby the puppy is doing beautifully so a special thanks to you.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> "Sarchasm"...new spelling that indicates the great void that exists between the delivering party and the one not understanding it is sarcasm.
> 
> Funny, it seems the only way to grow is to do things the way you think they should be done Dave. Am I right. LOL I will never spend my time teaching multiple exercises to "train around" one problem that is easily corrected by simply correcting it.





> Originally Posted by *Don Turnipseed*
> _Don't have to feed them any more Faisal. They are in training and get plemty to eat._


No, Don. You said you didn't feed your dogs while they were in training. Your answer to another post. I get your "sarcasm" now. A better definition of "sarchasm" might be between what is really funny, and what you say...lol. 

You have no idea how I train I can tell from all of your responses to my posts. What you are doing is looking within yourself for solutions to your dogs. Look out. That's all I am saying. 

Insanity: _doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results_. Albert Einstein.

I don't know if this was truly said by him, but I think of you when I hear this definition of insanity.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

No more flaming.

Let's address the topic and not the posters.


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## Connie Sutherland

It would be great if people who have used a method properly were the ones responding to questions about it.

This other BS is just that: BS.


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## Dave Colborn

vicki dickey said:


> In fact Dave I was torn. I had one person telling me no treats. Training with treats will get me no where because what happens when the treats arent there. And in my obedience class I have a trainer using treats in every possible way-baiting, luring, rewarding. Both of these people are successful I have a puppy -a clean slate-to train and I asked the people on this forum their opinions. Is that an agenda Dave? I was having a problem with loose heeling in particular and was told in an easy to follow way how to fix it. It worked and I am grateful. As I was reading what everyone wrote, I could see benefits to both ways of training and I also can see how each person feels their way is the best and to some the only way. Some people started one way, tried another and found that worked as well. From what I read both ways can be successful, sometimes mixing them both can be successful and every dog is different and do what works best for the dog. I apologised for the horse reference and never meant it to develop into a debate of sorts. So my list of things to be considered or my agenda has been filled Okay Dave?
> Thank you all for your advice and help.
> And Joby the puppy is doing beautifully so a special thanks to you.


Glad you found a simple solution. I liked the horse content even if it went off track. Training horses definitely helps with dog training, from what little I have done with it. I really like Monty Roberts methods and what he does. 

Good luck with your dog. I actually thought you were a different poster under an assumed name from your content. For that apparent mistaken assumption, I apologize.


----------



## Faisal Khan

Jackie Lockard said:


> I've worked with several top level Sch trainers and none of them have used force in training. One of them even has a series of DVDs...obedience without conflict.


Sigh


----------



## Faisal Khan

Jackie Lockard said:


> I've worked with several top level Sch trainers and none of them have used force in training. One of them even has a series of DVDs...obedience without conflict.


Are you serious or just kidding?


----------



## Jackie Lockard

Faisal Khan said:


> Are you serious or just kidding?


Am I going to have to define "use force"?


----------



## maggie fraser

Jackie Lockard said:


> Am I going to have to define "use force"?


I think the drift is Ivan is not a positive only trainer.


----------



## Jackie Lockard

maggie fraser said:


> I think the drift is Ivan is not a positive only trainer.


Never said he was. See? I'm going to have to mince words with "use force".


----------



## maggie fraser

Jackie Lockard said:


> Never said he was. See? I'm going to have to mince words with "use force".


I'm not arguing. I'm just being a parrot.


----------



## Bob Scott

Faisal Khan said:


> Bob, just curious, did yyou go beyond club level competition with your SchH dog? I hear that top level competitors pretty much all use force. Might be that no force gets you the titles but not the scores that the high level competitors want?



Club level only in Schutzhund. I couldn't tell you if anyone with no force training has done anything at a high level. I'd love to see or hear about anyone that has. I can't comment on your last sentence simply because I can't answer for anyone other them myself.
I'm not in the big leagues with anyone in any dog sport. Was in the past with AKC OB but that was many moons ago. 
Been involved in a number of dog sport/activity over the years for no better reason then I have fun doing them. SAR, Schutzhund, AKC OB, terrier races, terrier trials, natural earth work, lure coursing, Herding and a few others.
Even in todays AKC ob competition I don't know if anyone has taken a dog to a higher level such as OTCH with no force, motivational only. I'm guessing that's highly possible though.


----------



## Randy Allen

In between all the axes getting honed around here;
here's a thought for you Vicki.
I think you've learned a valuable lesson. Any trainer.....I'll repeat, any trainer that relies on just one method for teaching a dog the range that it takes to master any discipline is probably not worth beating yourself over the head about.
The good trainer does whatever the dog in front of them responds to. There is no blanket program that covers it all. If one thing doesn't work, time to come up with another plan.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy


----------



## vicki dickey

Hi Randy
That is why I ask my questions. You can get a lot of great ideas from experienced people on this forum. Even if you are just searching for help you have to be thick skinned to survive some of the attacks though.


----------



## Sara Waters

Bob Scott said:


> Even in todays AKC ob competition I don't know if anyone has taken a dog to a higher level such as OTCH with no force, motivational only. I'm guessing that's highly possible though.


They certainly have in Australia with scores of 200 and obedience champion titles. Same people all the time it would appear with each of their up and coming dogs so I guess they have something nailed.

Schutzhund I wouldnt have a clue, it is not a sport we do where I live for some reason.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Sara Waters said:


> They certainly have in Australia with scores of 200 and obedience champion titles. Same people all the time it would appear with each of their up and coming dogs so I guess they have something nailed.
> 
> Schutzhund I wouldnt have a clue, it is not a sport we do where I live for some reason.


Sara,

I guess we need to define "motivational only"? If you're claiming there are ob competitors in Australia that train
positive (traditional definition not as in adding) only with no
corrections or compulsion? I'd need more proof then your
say so


----------



## Sara Waters

Thomas Barriano said:


> Sara,
> 
> I guess we need to define "motivational only"? If you're claiming there are ob competitors in Australia that train
> positive (traditional definition not as in adding) only with no
> corrections or compulsion? I'd need more proof then your
> say so


Yes I can understand that. 

The only thing I can suggest is that you apply to join the yahoo OzObedience trialing group. 

They have a big heading on their group REWARD BASED ONLY along with " it is one place where we are not obliged to defend reward based training". You will find all the top obedience trialers on there plus the rest of us, not that I visit often because obedience is not really my thing, but I used to.

They welcome international visitors they say. Maybe Brad Roberts also belongs since he is in competition obedience in Australia.

It may give you an insight into how they train, short of flying out here and coming to the training sessions and trials LOL


----------



## Erica Boling

maggie fraser said:


> I think the drift is Ivan is not a positive only trainer.


I've trained with him a number of times. He most certainly is not all positive. Many times I've seen him use a very nice balance of methods. I really like what Randy said above about a good trainer using a variety of methods and no single method working with all dogs.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

if the OP watched his vids properly you would definately see that he discusses and applies corrections in them with good explanations of when to apply them, at what level and why???

is he still active in comp and does he do bitework i only ever seen obed vids.

supercool guy at least on vid.


----------



## Bob Scott

Open to visitors

www.rwdc.org


----------



## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> Open to visitors
> 
> www.rwdc.org


Bob.

Do folks train this way with older dogs? IE a two year old? I am definitely not the guy who likes putting all eggs in one basket, but if I had to pick my favorite basket, reward is it.


Can you lift a dog off a bite to create frustration? Or would that be considered a correction? 

While I have a good background in compulsion and correction as well as rewarding during training, I would love to learn more about reward and how you guys get what you get.


----------



## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> Bob.
> 
> Do folks train this way with older dogs? IE a two year old? I am definitely not the guy who likes putting all eggs in one basket, but if I had to pick my favorite basket, reward is it.
> 
> 
> Can you lift a dog off a bite to create frustration? Or would that be considered a correction?
> 
> While I have a good background in compulsion and correction as well as rewarding during training, I would love to learn more about reward and how you guys get what you get.



They have taken older, trained dogs and retrained with motivational only. 
I don't recall lifting a dog to create frustration. The bite is high level reward. Get the dog in the right frame of mind with motivational training and you'd be suprised what they will and wont do with reward based training.
Bite work is just another high level reward or distraction depending on how you use it.
Even if you use motivational only for training and then go to correction I believe the correction level will be much lower. 
I'm also not big on using only one basket.
Learn it all then use what works for you and your dog.:wink:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> In fact Dave I was torn. I had one person telling me no treats. Training with treats will get me no where because what happens when the treats arent there. And in my obedience class I have a trainer using treats in every possible way-baiting, luring, rewarding. Both of these people are successful I have a puppy -a clean slate-to train and I asked the people on this forum their opinions.


Vicki, what I tell people who say they don't train with treats because in competition the treats aren't allowed...well, might be news to them, but a prong collar, e-collar, etc isn't allowed either. ;-) Unfortunately, just like politics, it's usually just the loudest and most extreme people on both sides that passive readers think is the only way to do it: all positive or all compulsion. The reality is the majority of trainers fall somewhere in between. I train with both markers (even having my decoy give the mark when he sees my dog doing something right that I can't) and with some corrections/compulsion. I have had to use the e-collar on a fairly low level because he likes rewarding himself with an extra rebite after an out and because he's so fast, an e-collar is better for timing than a prong collar when I catch him biting dirty.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Bob Scott said:


> Open to visitors
> 
> www.rwdc.org


Bob you kept this a secret, not sure your motivation for posting the link, a lot of the "serious" (like sport is something serious) trainers would mock this and be scathing of this concept just in principle. is what you are doing????

i would , depending on a closer look, join this group just because of what they are trying to do, even though i would never be able to train with them, something i would be proud to be a part of.

haven't read the site, so hope i'm not dissapointed to find they are just bunch of a wackos, are they at least competitive. 

a 5 second look at the first page seems great.

i would rather be a soft-ass low level competitor than a K-09 T wearing, utility belt wearing, camo pants wearing, dog kicker tough guy wannabe thats not even in police or millitary.


----------



## brad robert

Thomas Barriano said:


> Sara,
> 
> I guess we need to define "motivational only"? If you're claiming there are ob competitors in Australia that train
> positive (traditional definition not as in adding) only with no
> corrections or compulsion? I'd need more proof then your
> say so


Thomas corrections would come thru the witholding of reward and from my experience that is all no force is used infact they are absolutely against it even the wearing of a pinch is not something they do as i found out.


----------



## Sara Waters

brad robert said:


> Thomas corrections would come thru the witholding of reward and from my experience that is all no force is used infact they are absolutely against it even the wearing of a pinch is not something they do as i found out.


Yes witholding of reward. But they generally try and set their dogs up to succeed so that the dog wins in the majority of times especially when teaching and shaping new behaviours. I have found with mine this motivates them more and more. Too many failures in a row frustrates the dog, but the occassional one also motivates them to work out what you want.

I have never ever seen a pinch collar, e collar or prong so would assume they are not allowed at the training clubs I go to on occasion. I have only ever seen and used a flat collar and in one of the agility venues collars are not allowed in the ring. I grabbed my collarless dog on his first ever run by the neck because he was so excited exiting the ring and his collar was way up by the start line, and got told off for scruffing LOL so good obedience is essential.


----------



## Jackie Lockard

Erica Boling said:


> I've trained with him a number of times. He most certainly is not all positive. Many times I've seen him use a very nice balance of methods. I really like what Randy said above about a good trainer using a variety of methods and no single method working with all dogs.


Is that the reason for the tritronics banners in his DVDs? FWIW I think there is a difference between force and allowing the dog to make his own decisions.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> They have taken older, trained dogs and retrained with motivational only.
> I don't recall lifting a dog to create frustration. The bite is high level reward. Get the dog in the right frame of mind with motivational training and you'd be suprised what they will and wont do with reward based training.
> Bite work is just another high level reward or distraction depending on how you use it.
> Even if you use motivational only for training and then go to correction I believe the correction level will be much lower.
> I'm also not big on using only one basket.
> Learn it all then use what works for you and your dog.:wink:


Bob.

I usually train things as positive as i can. I agree you have to use much less correction or lower levels when you do so. I like not using pressure and having happy looking responsive dogs. 

I was wondering specifically how you would go about building a dog up to bite. Do you lift them off of the bite as a youngster, or do you immediately teach them a motivational out, even if the grip is crappy, and come back to building the grip up later? Otherwise, if you have a drivey dog, how do you get them off of the bite surface?


----------



## Joby Becker

Jackie Lockard said:


> Is that the reason for the tritronics banners in his DVDs? FWIW I think there is a difference between force and allowing the dog to make his own decisions.


Can you define force methods please, for the benefit of this exchange...having trouble getting at what you meant by the top trainers do not use force.


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## Jackie Lockard

Joby Becker said:


> Can you define force methods please, for the benefit of this exchange...having trouble getting at what you meant by the top trainers do not use force.



I knew it.:lol: But it's right here: there is a difference between forcing an action and allowing the dog to make his own decisions.

Whether it's defined as "new" or "old" or "positive" or "traditional", whatever.


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## Joby Becker

Jackie Lockard said:


> I knew it.:lol: But it's right here: there is a difference between forcing an action and allowing the dog to make his own decisions.
> 
> Whether it's defined as "new" or "old" or "positive" or "traditional", whatever.


can you explain exactly what you mean by force? maybe an example of what the top trainers you know DON'T DO, ...in a training scenario..

if it is forcing an action. please describe method..for sake of definition if nothing else...

I was hoping for a definition, not a vague statement that it is "different from allowing a dog to make his own decisions"

the force methods I have seen in my very limited exposure to them, (if I even have seen it, by your definition) does still allow the dog to make its own decision.


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## Jackie Lockard

Joby Becker said:


> can you explain exactly what you mean by force? maybe an example of what the top trainers you know DON'T DO, ...in a training scenario..
> 
> if it is forcing an action. please describe method..for sake of definition if nothing else...
> 
> the force methods I have seen in my very limited exposure to them, does still allow the dog to make its own decision.


Three examples, all three have been things I have tried myself on dogs.

I know in Tom Rose's book he describes how he gets puppies to do fast positions. He puts the dog on a pedestal (tree stump, stool, whatever is just big enough for the pup to barely do a down on so it restricts choices and makes pup "more careful" so as to not fall). Every time he says a position he uses his hands to force the dog into that position quickly. So in a sit he says sit and then physically pushes the dog's butt down. There is no choice there. What is supposed to happen is that the dog never sits slowly (because he never has a choice) and therefore has speedy sits. With the down it's pushing and with the stand I believe he uses a rope or something. I always found that dogs got confused and opposition reflex kicked in at the pushing. 

Ivan outlines his methods in the DVD, I think the second one? Ask for a sit, dog does it or not and receives appropriate handler response. Correction for bad decision, reward for good decision. THAT is a choice. I believe to get faster sits or down he uses 'beat the correction' but don't quote me on that.

Now something I've started doing with my Lab, got me the best results _with this particular dog _was all rewards. Rewarded every time I asked for a position and he performed instantly, no matter how slow it was. Now they're all super speedy and with great enthusiasm. Incorrect positions got a nonreward marker and we set up the exercise again (in short).

The second two examples operate on similar theory but different consequences. Both allow the dog freedom of choice to sit or not.


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## Dave Colborn

vicki dickey said:


> I am torn between two training methods and would like to hear other trainer's ideas. I have a 5 month old puppy in a beginning class taught by an AKC judge. We are learning the basics with a clicker, treats and words. Positive training. She insists on a loose lead at ALL times. I have owned my puppy for a month. His former owner did not do anything with him-he lived in a crate a lot. He will now sit, down, stand and stay on all three with me at the end of a 6 ft leash for a minute and return to him goiing behind him to heel position. Oh and he also learned to shake hands at the trainer''s request that we teach him a trick. Personally I am not big on tricks but I did it. I have also taught him watch in front and heel position. I also taught him a slight pop of the leash means to watch me should he lose his focus. We also have taken up to 5 steps in heeling with him watching me. All good. But take him for a walk and that boy wants to pull you left and right. Now comes the second method of training. A friend saw the puppy doing that and asked why in the world would I let him get by with that. I explained I wasnt and was trying the all positive approach. She took the leash and the puppy and every time he would pull he would get a jerk correction with a quick release and then praise. After a few minutes of this the puppy was giving her more attention because if he did not he would get that jerk. I rememeber training like that with a choke collar years ago-it was the way it was done then.
> SO which is better the old correction training or the newer positive training? My friend feels that if the dog fears (perhaps the wrong term) the correction you will have a better trained dog than one who is handed string cheese or hotdogs or hear a click. Take the hotdog away and what do you have whereas the dog trained with corrections will work out of respect or fear. That jerk is the motivation that piece of hotdog is suppose to give. Again I say fear but maybe respect would be better.I am sure I am not saying this all correctly but maybe some of you will understand what I am trying to say or ask.
> The other day I resorted to a pinch collar on this puppy and it made a major improvement in him. What happenes when that collar is replaced with a reg, collar?
> I ask all of this because I do not want to make a mistake with this puppy. I prefer to get a puppy at a lot younger age than 4 months because I begin working with them immediately. But sometimes life gives you a surprise. He has learned a lot in a few weeks. I work with him daily for 10-15 minutes sessions at least twice a day. I try to keep it fun, positive but would it hurt to add a little of the old correction when necessary?
> You all might remember I trained my other aussie Zak with all positive methods and yet he stopped doing well in OB at the shows. Ring sour, not his thing, too much too fast-or is all positive not so positive? Would he have done better in the old method? Zak by the way is doing great in agility and is very happy and motivated so perhaps OB was not his sport. But I wonder.



Vicki. Again, I apologize for mistaking you for a different poster here in the similarities of your posts and views on crate training, what training with reward can do, not being big on "tricks", etc... My bad. You can tell from the work that the Mods do here keeping people off the board, it does happen occasionally that a poster will come on under false pretenses.


I sincerely am glad you got your dog under control with Joby's guidance, but could you post what your motivational trainer tells you to do about the heeling problem when you are on a walk and you want a loose heel? I am curious to see what a motivational trainer across the water would suggest.


One of my main ideas that I try to get across to people is to find a trainer they like and stick with them. Whatever the method. You should post her guidance to help with this since you have given a voice to your correction based trainer. 

Thanks!!!


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## leslie cassian

So if my dog decides, as she did in the past, that it is much more rewarding to run back down the trail, rather than end play time and get back in the car and I respond to that by putting an ecollar on her and tap, tap, tap to make the decision to run away much less appealing, is that force, or is that allowing her to decide?


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## Jackie Lockard

leslie cassian said:


> So* if my dog decides*, as she did in the past, that it is much more rewarding to run back down the trail, rather than end play time and get back in the car and I respond to that by putting an ecollar on her and tap, tap, tap to make the decision to run away much less appealing, is that force, or is that allowing her to decide?


Right? The consequence for the decision happened to be correction.


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## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> Bob.
> 
> I usually train things as positive as i can. I agree you have to use much less correction or lower levels when you do so. I like not using pressure and having happy looking responsive dogs.
> 
> I was wondering specifically how you would go about building a dog up to bite. Do you lift them off of the bite as a youngster, or do you immediately teach them a motivational out, even if the grip is crappy, and come back to building the grip up later? Otherwise, if you have a drivey dog, how do you get them off of the bite surface?


The out is taught as part of the game. Dog outs = gets another bite. We had one very serious dog that had serious out issues. Before it came to the club it it was shocked, choked, you name it to try and fix an out problem. The dog DQd at the Nats for no out. Within a few weeks it was happily outing for nothing more then the right to another bite.
The out is taught by locking up and waiting the dog out. Drivey dog or not, they learn fast what gets the next bite. 
I've never understood all the whip cracking, etc to fire a dog up. EVERY dog at this club would drag you to the bite field with no build up whatsoever.
I will say that I believe that a dog that is taught with pressure will fall back on old habits when the pressure is to great. This dog was sold and went back to old habits because the training went back to the way it was started. 

Peter, this is the club I belonged to for 5-6 yrs.
In the site my dog Thunder can be found under Club Dogs - Past Dogs. Also many pics of him under the past trail photos of Tracking/Obedience/protection. 
No video of me or my dogs. That wasn't a part of the club site while I was there.


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## Joby Becker

Jackie Lockard said:


> Three examples, all three have been things I have tried myself on dogs.
> 
> I know in Tom Rose's book he describes how he gets puppies to do fast positions. He puts the dog on a pedestal (tree stump, stool, whatever is just big enough for the pup to barely do a down on so it restricts choices and makes pup "more careful" so as to not fall). Every time he says a position he uses his hands to force the dog into that position quickly. So in a sit he says sit and then physically pushes the dog's butt down. There is no choice there. What is supposed to happen is that the dog never sits slowly (because he never has a choice) and therefore has speedy sits. With the down it's pushing and with the stand I believe he uses a rope or something. I always found that dogs got confused and opposition reflex kicked in at the pushing.
> 
> Ivan outlines his methods in the DVD, I think the second one? Ask for a sit, dog does it or not and receives appropriate handler response. Correction for bad decision, reward for good decision. THAT is a choice. I believe to get faster sits or down he uses 'beat the correction' but don't quote me on that.
> 
> Now something I've started doing with my Lab, got me the best results _with this particular dog _was all rewards. Rewarded every time I asked for a position and he performed instantly, no matter how slow it was. Now they're all super speedy and with great enthusiasm. Incorrect positions got a nonreward marker and we set up the exercise again (in short).
> 
> The second two examples operate on similar theory but different consequences. Both allow the dog freedom of choice to sit or not.


That is really only one example of FORCE. The hands on approach to physically put dog into a postition, *all* options are taken away...

That is not how force is viewed by most, I think..That is one example that applies only the simple task.

I can believe that Ivan does NOT force a dog to sit, in that manner...but you stated that you know several top trainers that do NOT use force at all.

I think the DVD for Ivan's retrieve method, is advertised as "using tension with minimal force", is that a false statement, by the marketers of that DVD? or is there some small amount of force used, possibly?


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> The out is taught as part of the game. Dog outs = gets another bite. We had one very serious dog that had serious out issues. Before it came to the club it it was shocked, choked, you name it to try and fix an out problem. The dog DQd at the Nats for no out. Within a few weeks it was happily outing for nothing more then the right to another bite.



OK. I understand this and have used it. Unfairly applied force can cause out problems. I have put "no out" dogs on a backtie, frozen up and gotten an out and rewarded with a bite. I get this idea. In a lot of cases and probably the dog you described, there was good foundation and screwed up training after. You went back to what the dog understood, or maybe even taught it, and it solved the problem temporarily. I agree with you that reward works. 

What my question is, when you have a puppy on the rag. First bite session, how do you get the dog to release it. Do you bring a second rag or flirt pole out/ do you wait til the dog drops it? How do you initially with a puppy or an older dog get the out, build the grip, etc.?


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## Bob Scott

release it. Do you bring a second rag or flirt pole out/ do you wait til the dog drops it? How do you initially with a puppy or an older dog get the out, build the grip, etc.?"

Same thing. Lock up and wait. 
As long as you are engaging the pup it will tug and fight with you. Lock up and they will stop/release. 
Obviously some have more drive to keep it but I think it's more "WTF" when you stop with the drivyer pups. 
There are a few pups that may need a second tug. I've not seen any that wouldn't give up the first (with trainer locking up) when a new tug was presented with a lot of movement.
If you get to the point that a particular pup refuses, IMHO, something in the work has created it. Even a very possesive pup will get bored with just standing and holding onto the first tug if another waaaay more interesting one is presented. Older dogs with developed issues may be more of a challenge but as I said with the adult dog above, they can all figure out what gets the tug/bite. 
Also, don't add the out command till the pup/dog really starts to understand what's happening.


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## Sara Waters

Dave Colborn said:


> What my question is, when you have a puppy on the rag. First bite session, how do you get the dog to release it. Do you bring a second rag or flirt pole out/ do you wait til the dog drops it? How do you initially with a puppy or an older dog get the out, build the grip, etc.?


This may not be applicable as I am training for agility not bite work, but the way I out my dogs while ferociously tugging with them is to stop and wait. They usually release the tug and then I praise and immediately start tugging again. I then add the word out when they catch on to what I want. I have never had a problem even with my most ferocious cattle dog tuggers with grips like vices. They release the tug instantly I say out.


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> release it. Do you bring a second rag or flirt pole out/ do you wait til the dog drops it? How do you initially with a puppy or an older dog get the out, build the grip, etc.?"
> 
> Same thing. Lock up and wait.
> As long as you are engaging the pup it will tug and fight with you. Lock up and they will stop/release.
> Obviously some have more drive to keep it but I think it's more "WTF" when you stop with the drivyer pups.
> There are a few pups that may need a second tug. I've not seen any that wouldn't give up the first (with trainer locking up) when a new tug was presented with a lot of movement.
> If you get to the point that a particular pup refuses, IMHO, something in the work has created it. Even a very possesive pup will get bored with just standing and holding onto the first tug if another waaaay more interesting one is presented. Older dogs with developed issues may be more of a challenge but as I said with the adult dog above, they can all figure out what gets the tug/bite.
> Also, don't add the out command till the pup/dog really starts to understand what's happening.


OK. So you teach the out to the pup on the first session? Are the dogs all pretty genetically strong, or do you have to build some of them up?

I trained my current dog this way exactly. I actually use sit for my out command, because that was what i used immediately after would out.


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## Brian Anderson

Dave Colborn said:


> OK. I understand this and have used it. Unfairly applied force can cause out problems. I have put "no out" dogs on a backtie, frozen up and gotten an out and rewarded with a bite. I get this idea. In a lot of cases and probably the dog you described, there was good foundation and screwed up training after. You went back to what the dog understood, or maybe even taught it, and it solved the problem temporarily. I agree with you that reward works.
> 
> What my question is, when you have a puppy on the rag. First bite session, how do you get the dog to release it. Do you bring a second rag or flirt pole out/ do you wait til the dog drops it? How do you initially with a puppy or an older dog get the out, build the grip, etc.?


I start the out right out of the bag Dave. Not the way everyone does it but I have found that conditioning it early on makes it easier later down the road when the pressure comes. No trick to it. When I start the out I wait the pup out and I might slowly lift up while being still and wait for the release. Over time I tie the out command to the act of releasing the item. There are some problems that can occur with this method if the trainer can't read the dog or rushes things etc. Using force to train the out has all kinds of snags in it. If correcting an older dog on the out the correction should be into the bite NOT PULLING AWAY FROM THE BITE. A trick I learned from Guy Powell who has probably trained and worked more good street dogs than I have seen. I am not a fan of using 2 or more items to get the release although it can and does work. It muddies the water for the dog in my opinion.


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## Jackie Lockard

Joby Becker said:


> That is really only one example of FORCE. The hands on approach to physically put dog into a postition, *all* options are taken away...
> 
> That is not how force is viewed by most, I think..That is one example that applies only the simple task.
> 
> I can believe that Ivan does NOT force a dog to sit, in that manner...but you stated that you know several top trainers that do NOT use force at all.
> 
> I think the DVD for Ivan's retrieve method, is advertised as "using tension with minimal force", is that a false statement, by the marketers of that DVD? or is there some small amount of force used, possibly?


Isn't that the definition of "force"? You don't have another option? Everything else is operant conditioning.

Ivan allows dogs to make the decision to hold the dowel tightly or not. Consequences are based on the dog's decision. Chewing, or otherwise allowing the dowel to fall from the mouth results in a correction (via nonreward or collar). Holding tightly until released results in reward. =operant conditioning. The force that I can think of is forcing the dowel into the dog's mouth. Yes force, the dog is not given the option of taking the dowel or not. Also yes to minimal force. It's not a *force*d retrieve.

Is force what Ivan bases all, or even most of, his training on? Absolutely not, same answer to the other top trainers I have worked with (I obviously cannot speak for all of them, only those whose training I have seen with my own two eyes). This wasn't a question if they're flowery cookie trainers. It was if they used force. I'm sure in all of them you will find areas that they force their dogs into things. But this imho is a far cry from trainers working in force-mode without EVER allowing their dogs freedom.

You want me to outline an entire training plan for a IPO3 routine training in force??? Waste of my time if you can't figure out what I'm talking about by the sit example...


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## Dave Colborn

Brian Anderson said:


> I start the out right out of the bag Dave. Not the way everyone does it but I have found that conditioning it early on makes it easier later down the road when the pressure comes. No trick to it. When I start the out I wait the pup out and I might slowly lift up while being still and wait for the release. Over time I tie the out command to the act of releasing the item. There are some problems that can occur with this method if the trainer can't read the dog or rushes things etc. Using force to train the out has all kinds of snags in it. If correcting an older dog on the out the correction should be into the bite NOT PULLING AWAY FROM THE BITE. A trick I learned from Guy Powell who has probably trained and worked more good street dogs than I have seen. I am not a fan of using 2 or more items to get the release although it can and does work. It muddies the water for the dog in my opinion.



Brian. I can, have, and do train dogs to out. I have worked with difficult dogs outing and am good at it. I am trying to get the specifics of how people have been successful with puppies, building the dog up to bite well, and then motivationally teach the out, or if the out is taught and then the grip is worked. That's all. I use a lot of frustration and lift offs to get to get a dog to bite well, wondering how others do it, that's all.

It's kind of a given you wouldn't want to pull away from the bite working the out, that's kind of a cherry mistake. It's not a trick, it's using the gag reflex as opposed to the opposition reflex. Pretty simple stuff.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I like that method a lot (freezing up, waiting for the out, then eventually marking it, and rewarding with a rebite), but it has created two side behaviors in my dog that I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on (sorry if this is going OT). First, it's occasionally created an automatic out when the decoy freezes up, which is not desirable in PSA. We're now working on having the decoy freeze, pause for a few seconds and restart the fight so he learns not to automatically let go until I say so. The second isssue is he's really fast and he'll go in for his own reward bite before me or the decoy says yes. So have had to use the e-collar to enforce not getting dirty and rebiting on your own. Unfortunately, I don't usually get the luxury of working with experienced decoys, so it makes it even worse if they don't pull the leg back slowly (versus quickly, which would be okay to rebite).


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## Jackie Lockard

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I like that method a lot (freezing up, waiting for the out, then eventually marking it, and rewarding with a rebite), but it has created two side behaviors in my dog that I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on (sorry if this is going OT). First, it's occasionally created an automatic out when the decoy freezes up, which is not desirable in PSA. We're now working on having the decoy freeze, pause for a few seconds and restart the fight so he learns not to automatically let go until I say so. The second isssue is he's really fast and he'll go in for his own reward bite before me or the decoy says yes. So have had to use the e-collar to enforce not getting dirty and rebiting on your own. Unfortunately, I don't usually get the luxury of working with experienced decoys, so it makes it even worse if they don't pull the leg back slowly (versus quickly, which would be okay to rebite).


1. That's a balance/proofing issue. Freezing up should really only be done in the beginning to get the dog to try different things in order to 'catch' the out to m/r. Once the dog catches the drift you start adding criteria and making things harder. If the dog outs on a freeze it'd be a nonreward marker and try again until the dog gets it right (biting until told to release). (Side question, is an automatic out desired in any sports aside from an object guard?)

2. Seems like a timing issue on the markers OR a reinforcement issue. The marker has to be clear and timing has to be perfect. If the dog goes prematurely then he should not get reinforcement for it. (Out and try again.) This can be practiced on a tug with you, don't necessarily need to do this on a decoy. This skills will always be transferred over as long as the criteria remains the same.


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## Erica Boling

Jackie Lockard said:


> Is that the reason for the tritronics banners in his DVDs? FWIW I think there is a difference between force and allowing the dog to make his own decisions.


LOL I never noticed the Tritronics banners! Will have to pay more attention the next time I watch his videos.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jackie Lockard said:


> 1. That's a balance/proofing issue. Freezing up should really only be done in the beginning to get the dog to try different things in order to 'catch' the out to m/r. Once the dog catches the drift you start adding criteria and making things harder. If the dog outs on a freeze it'd be a nonreward marker and try again until the dog gets it right (biting until told to release). (Side question, is an automatic out desired in any sports aside from an object guard?)


Right, I know it's only done in the beginning, but because marker training can be so powerful and you don't know precisely what your dog thinks you're marking, you sometimes accidentally reinforce other things from the picture that you didn't realize and it can stay with the dog for a long time. Like I taught my dog a flip finish with shaping and luring with a tug. When he started learning this, he was excited and barked. Because I was marking him for getting into the right position (from my perspective), I of course marked and rewarded. But the bark was part of that, so now he almost always barks when I have him do a flip finish. Not a huge deal, just an example.




> Seems like a timing issue on the markers OR a reinforcement issue. The marker has to be clear and timing has to be perfect. If the dog goes prematurely then he should not get reinforcement for it. (Out and try again.) This can be practiced on a tug with you, don't necessarily need to do this on a decoy. This skills will always be transferred over as long as the criteria remains the same.


Right, we've done the verbal correction, out and try again thing. A lot. :lol: I've also tried negative reinforcement and taken him back to the car any time he does that (like "oops, game over"). The lure of the stimulus (getting his own reward bite) is just more powerful and the immediate correction on the e-collar on a relatively low level seems to for him the best way to correct this. I think a prong collar correction is too slow, as is pulling him off the rebite on a slip collar (have tried both). He's pretty biddable, but does have a "are you going to make me?" side to him when he's in high drive for something as tempting as giving himself a rebite.


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## Jackie Lockard

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Right, I know it's only done in the beginning, but because marker training can be so powerful and you don't know precisely what your dog thinks you're marking, you sometimes accidentally reinforce other things from the picture that you didn't realize and it can stay with the dog for a long time. Like I taught my dog a flip finish with shaping and luring with a tug. When he started learning this, he was excited and barked. Because I was marking him for getting into the right position (from my perspective), I of course marked and rewarded. But the bark was part of that, so now he almost always barks when I have him do a flip finish. Not a huge deal, just an example.
> 
> 
> Right, we've done the verbal correction, out and try again thing. A lot. :lol: I've also tried negative reinforcement and taken him back to the car any time he does that (like "oops, game over"). The lure of the stimulus (getting his own reward bite) is just more powerful and the immediate correction on the e-collar on a relatively low level seems to for him the best way to correct this. I think a prong collar correction is too slow, as is pulling him off the rebite on a slip collar (have tried both). He's pretty biddable, but does have a "are you going to make me?" side to him when he's in high drive for something as tempting as giving himself a rebite.


So are you sure it's not a timing issue? LOL I saw that post.You can figure out what your dog thinks you're marking by testing his knowledge of the exercise. And by being aware. ;-) I just put some money into a video camera and tripod since I don't plan on going back to a club until the spring. I figure this way I can be my own spotter for things like that!

I wouldn't give him a correction, I would just make sure he knows 100% what the criteria for biting is. iidk what PSA exactly entails, but for example could be an attack, swift movements, upon command only, ect. Everything else would get nonreward, out, and try again without any reinforcement. Tug/sleeve is kept very still and no reward (fight) until he does it correctly. If you're really struggling my guess is that you would struggle with this same thing with a tug on the obedience field, so try it there first and then transfer to bitework.


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## Brian Anderson

Dave Colborn said:


> Brian. I can, have, and do train dogs to out. I have worked with difficult dogs outing and am good at it. I am trying to get the specifics of how people have been successful with puppies, building the dog up to bite well, and then motivationally teach the out, or if the out is taught and then the grip is worked. That's all. I use a lot of frustration and lift offs to get to get a dog to bite well, wondering how others do it, that's all.
> 
> It's kind of a given you wouldn't want to pull away from the bite working the out, that's kind of a cherry mistake. It's not a trick, it's using the gag reflex as opposed to the opposition reflex. Pretty simple stuff.


I am damn good at it too my brother. I posted a reply to your question for the benefit of others that might be working on that phase of their training I figured thats why you asked the question. Some of us consider the wider audience when we make posts. 

Its a trick for those that haven't figured it out  and looking at a lot of these so called trainers prying dogs off the bite they haven't figured it out either lol 

wondering how others do it, that's all <--- got my answer :razz:


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## Dave Colborn

Brian Anderson said:


> I am damn good at it too my brother. I posted a reply to your question for the benefit of others that might be working on that phase of their training I figured thats why you asked the question. Some of us consider the wider audience when we make posts.
> 
> Its a trick for those that haven't figured it out  and looking at a lot of these so called trainers prying dogs off the bite they haven't figured it out either lol
> 
> wondering how others do it, that's all <--- got my answer :razz:



Roger all that, Brian. Thanks for your input.

I am trying to keep the focus pretty narrow (for my information) (building drive, grip, etc and still getting the out motivationally) , as I see a lot of value in reward involved in training. I can get to the end (clean out with little conflict) pretty quickly applying a mix of correction and reward for a wide range of dogs (temperament and age and previous training). Wondering if I can do the same without correction as quickly, or at all. My guess is no, but trying to be open minded and get the blanks filled in. I think Bob is a wealth of knowledge on this as he has titled a few this way, and I was trying to pick his brain.


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## Brian Anderson

Dave Colborn said:


> Roger all that, Brian. Thanks for your input.
> 
> I am trying to keep the focus pretty narrow (for my information) (building drive, grip, etc and still getting the out motivationally) , as I see a lot of value in reward involved in training. I can get to the end (clean out with little conflict) pretty quickly applying a mix of correction and reward for a wide range of dogs (temperament and age and previous training). Wondering if I can do the same without correction as quickly, or at all. My guess is no, but trying to be open minded and get the blanks filled in. I think Bob is a wealth of knowledge on this as he has titled a few this way, and I was trying to pick his brain.


Okay I gotcha... roger the part about Bob .... I cant tell you that I can do it without correction. But I am just as anxious to learn more.


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## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> OK. So you teach the out to the pup on the first session? Are the dogs all pretty genetically strong, or do you have to build some of them up?
> 
> I trained my current dog this way exactly. I actually use sit for my out command, because that was what i used immediately after would out.



The command isn't used initially and all pups will miss, drop the tug,loose focus, etc. Just teasing and causing misses can channel/develop huge drive in a dog that has it in him. You just have to let the pup win on a regular basis. 
The misses and teasing will also help the low drive pup but if it isn't there I doubt much can be done. 
I don't profess motivational as the end all do all. I believe it can be a "HUGE" help for most any dog. It's a matter of finding what makes that dog tick. 
The dogs we select for all the bite training, sport, even just OB have what we want to bring out. That's why we select those dog. Not all dogs can be trained with all methods. That goes for correction/motivational/etc.


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> The command isn't used initially and all pups will miss, drop the tug,loose focus, etc. Just teasing and causing misses can channel/develop huge drive in a dog that has it in him. You just have to let the pup win on a regular basis.
> The misses and teasing will also help the low drive pup but if it isn't there I doubt much can be done.
> I don't profess motivational as the end all do all. I believe it can be a "HUGE" help for most any dog. It's a matter of finding what makes that dog tick.
> The dogs we select for all the bite training, sport, even just OB have what we want to bring out. That's why we select those dog. Not all dogs can be trained with all methods. That goes for correction/motivational/etc.


I think I understand what you are saying. I know you don't propose no correction, ever, only that you like this method. Do you think this would be repeatable for dogs of most temperaments, ages and breeds that will bite in the first place?, and how long do you think it would be until the dog understands the exercise enough to be reliable?


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## vicki dickey

Dave,
I cant imagine anyone wanting to use my name (Vicki Dickey) and to think I married into that name. No apologizes needed. 
You asked about the directions my trainer( who uses all positive training) gave us for loose heeling and it is written as follows on the work sheet she handed out:

Practice loose leash walking with your dog. When walking, the dog breaks the plane of your leg, walk backwards and use the leash to bring your dog back into position. Feed a cookie at or behind your leg.

I tried this and it failed. I couldnt always go backwards in some locations. Using the leash meant to me I would have to reel him in like a fish. Treating him with a cookie at or behind my leg was only keeping him there if I constantly held it there. So in the next class I told her that I was having a problem with it and she suggested a pinch collar. There is nothing wrong with pinch collars-let me say that right upfront-but I have never had to use one. I have always done all my training with a flat collar or a martingale collar and ten years ago in obedience classes we used a choke chain. I wanted more options and came on the forum for help. Joby was very kind and wrote to me exactly how to fix it. And for THIS puppy it really worked. It did not take 5 minutes. And today in practice he stayed right with me and I did not once have to walk in the opposite direction. Tomorrow is class night and I will bring this method up before the whole class because there are others there experiencing the same problem. I will give Joby the credit.
This trainer has taken many dogs to their OTCH and MACH. She also said in class when she gets a puppy she never lets it pull on the leash right from the beginning. However I was working with a puppy that the previous owner let him pull them wherever. I believe she is a good trainer but in this instance she did not have the answer for me. So maybe just as sometimes more than one training method is best so might it be better to listen to more than one instructor or at least be open minded in all areas of training. Do what is best for the dog not what makes or breaks your ego or your favorite instructor's lesson plan.


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## Dave Colborn

vicki dickey said:


> Dave,
> I cant imagine anyone wanting to use my name (Vicki Dickey) and to think I married into that name. No apologizes needed.
> You asked about the directions my trainer( who uses all positive training) gave us for loose heeling and it is written as follows on the work sheet she handed out:
> 
> Practice loose leash walking with your dog. When walking, the dog breaks the plane of your leg, walk backwards and use the leash to bring your dog back into position. Feed a cookie at or behind your leg.
> 
> I tried this and it failed. I couldnt always go backwards in some locations. Using the leash meant to me I would have to reel him in like a fish. Treating him with a cookie at or behind my leg was only keeping him there if I constantly held it there. So in the next class I told her that I was having a problem with it and she suggested a pinch collar. There is nothing wrong with pinch collars-let me say that right upfront-but I have never had to use one. I have always done all my training with a flat collar or a martingale collar and ten years ago in obedience classes we used a choke chain. I wanted more options and came on the forum for help. Joby was very kind and wrote to me exactly how to fix it. And for THIS puppy it really worked. It did not take 5 minutes. And today in practice he stayed right with me and I did not once have to walk in the opposite direction. Tomorrow is class night and I will bring this method up before the whole class because there are others there experiencing the same problem. I will give Joby the credit.
> This trainer has taken many dogs to their OTCH and MACH. She also said in class when she gets a puppy she never lets it pull on the leash right from the beginning. However I was working with a puppy that the previous owner let him pull them wherever. I believe she is a good trainer but in this instance she did not have the answer for me. So maybe just as sometimes more than one training method is best so might it be better to listen to more than one instructor or at least be open minded in all areas of training. Do what is best for the dog not what makes or breaks your ego or your favorite instructor's lesson plan.



Your positive trainer suggested a pinch?


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## maggie fraser

This is all sounding arse about tit...has to be a wind up !!


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## vicki dickey

Dave,
Not only suggested a pinch but brought one out to fit on the puppy. I declined and said I would work with him more.


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## vicki dickey

Maggie I am not sure what your comment meant? I assure you what I wrote is all true. I have the worksheets or homework that is sent home every week and I copied it exactly as it was written. I also asked in class about my problem with him pulling and she said I needed a pinch collar. She told the whole class that the pinch collar was not cruel, etc and demonstrated how it was fit, explained how it worked and when and when you would not use it.After class several people bought them.


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## maggie fraser

I do beg your pardon regarding my comment. It's quite common usage here...and is actually not really quite as vulgar as one could possibly interpret.

I thought you said you have been competing/training for many years now. Over here, generally, folks who are competing, at least know how to train.....and you sound like you have not a clue, hence my conclusion everything seems arse about tit :smile:.

I think you need to argue less about methods, find yourself a decent trainer....and start from scratch.

Please forgive my bluntness, I'm scottish you know.


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## Brian Anderson

maggie fraser said:


> I do beg your pardon regarding my comment. It's quite common usage here...and is actually not really quite as vulgar as one could possibly interpret.
> 
> I thought you said you have been competing/training for many years now. Over here, generally, folks who are competing, at least know how to train.....and you sound like you have not a clue, hence my conclusion everything seems arse about tit :smile:.
> 
> I think you need to argue less about methods, find yourself a decent trainer....and start from scratch.
> 
> Please forgive my bluntness, I'm scottish you know.


a coy scott just doesn't seem right anyways. Always great to have somebody say what they really mean lol. My auto mechanic is of that persuasion and he is quite forthright lol.


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## Dave Colborn

vicki dickey said:


> Dave,
> Not only suggested a pinch but brought one out to fit on the puppy. I declined and said I would work with him more.



what's the punch line? I don't get it?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Vicki with respect IMO you are trying to get it all too "right" in your training approach - what did it do to your last dog - hope you don't end up one of those people that always end in the same spot whenever you start another dog with the same confusion of how you got there - and left asking "what is wrong with *the dog*"????

of course this is comin from a guy that never trained a dog to do much of anything so feel free to disregard. just sayin i think i see a pattern here - and it has nothing to do with your dogs.


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## vicki dickey

Maggie I have not trained nor been in competition for nearly 11 years while I had to go thru several surgeries. Zak,my 16 month old, is the first dog that I have trained for competition in 11 years and in those years a lot has changed in dog training. If I sound like I do not have a clue its because of the changes and the growth in dog training since I last trained a dog. I am trying to catch up and learn. The only bad question or stupid question is the one not asked. I have never said I was some big trainer-I dont pretend to know all the answers and I do not brag about what big wins my dogs have brought home. I enjoy working with my dogs and I get joy from their successes. 
And Peter why do you think I am on here asking questions-I want to learn from my mistakes-not keep making the same one over and over. Zak might not like OB but he loves agility and is doing great. The puppy, Indy,
is doing great learning all the basics. 
I am not on here trying to brag or put on airs although I am proud of my dogs. I cant offer anyone training advice because I am trying to learn myself but I can write about how a class I am in is being taught, how using a method worked or did not work for a dog I am working with, or share something that I learned. I thought this forum was a great tool for learning and sharing with people who loved working with dogs and were willing to share their knowledge, but I think I was wrong. I doubt I will ever post again. I was never unkind to anyone on this forum and wonder why some people are so quick to put another down.


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## Peter Cavallaro

vicki i didn't notice anyone putting you down, this is not face to face so people are apt to filling in blanks that aren't there. 

you should thank people for seeking clarification/justification, sometimes justifying yourself is more constructive than some expert just telling you an answer.

JMO


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## Faisal Khan

Maggie made Vicki go bye bye.


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## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> I think I understand what you are saying. I know you don't propose no correction, ever, only that you like this method. Do you think this would be repeatable for dogs of most temperaments, ages and breeds that will bite in the first place?, and how long do you think it would be until the dog understands the exercise enough to be reliable?



Tough, tough call. I "believe" that it could benifit all dogs but I would be talking out of my ^$$ to give an absolute. 
I've seen many different temperaments do well with it. SOUND temperment is key IMHO but that can also be said for any training.
With ANY training the handler's bond with the dog, The handler's ability to read a dog, the handler's ability to grasp the method, yadda, yadda has a definite influence on how fast or how well the dog learns. 
It wasn't a struggle for me and my dog Thunder. He's been light yrs ahead of any dog I've ever had and I've had a lot of dogs in my lifetime.
Trooper, on the other hand is very soft to me, doesn't have the quick comprehension that Thunder does and is extremely reactive yet he's a dog that loves and seems to need my attention.
The "very soft to me" is a big weak spot in my training. To many yrs with terriers. :lol: 
I think it's somewhat slower but I also believe there is more retention then classical correction training. 
bottom line;
Why would a dog refuse something if it realizes that compliance will lead to reward as compared to a dog that complies in order to avoid correction? Both have their place!


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## Jackie Lockard

vicki dickey said:


> Tomorrow is class night and I will bring this method up before the whole class because there are others there experiencing the same problem. I will give Joby the credit.



If any one of my student had the gonads to come into my class and start teaching my students she would be finding herself another trainer. But the trainer doesn't sound like she's getting the job done anyway. Joby, you planning on collecting that $150?


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## vicki dickey

Its a habit now to start the day with a cup of coffee, read/answer my email and look over the new subjects on this forum. I wasnt going to post anymore on here but I want to address Jackie's comment. My instructor opens every class asking if there are any questions, problems or if someone has something they want to share. She is open minded and likes to hear about any success with your dog whether it was her training method or not and then discusses it. I would never attend someone's class and put down their ideas or methods. Why not share something that worked for me-if it helps even one more owner/dog isnt that what training is all about?


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## Jackie Lockard

That's a little different than what it sounded like you were going to do Vicky. I got the impression you were just going to waltz into class with a 'new dog' and just tell everyone how to train their dogs. I wouldn't have a problem with a success story. but good luck.


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## Kadi Thingvall

vicki dickey said:


> You asked about the directions my trainer( who uses all positive training)





vicki dickey said:


> So in the next class I told her that I was having a problem with it and she suggested a pinch collar.


I would quit describing this trainer as an all positive trainer. That may be how they describe themselves, but at this point I think that's a marketing ploy on their part. Kind of like another trainer who was brought up in this thread as "no-force". Although I'm not sure he would describe himself that way, it's not the first time I've heard him described as no-force, positive only, no-compulsion, etc on the WWW and I know for a fact that's not the case.

Anyway, any trainer who goes that quickly to a pinch is not a "positive only" trainer, they have other tools in their arsenal. I'm not downgrading them in any way, personally I think having other tools is a good thing, but I think it's misleading to call them positive only, and you are getting some "lash back" from that, even though I suspect you are simply describing them the way they describe themselves.


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## Sara Waters

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Anyway, any trainer who goes that quickly to a pinch is not a "positive only" trainer, they have other tools in their arsenal. I'm not downgrading them in any way, personally I think having other tools is a good thing, but I think it's misleading to call them positive only, and you are getting some "lash back" from that, even though I suspect you are simply describing them the way they describe themselves.


I would tend to agree. If the instructions she sent you home with are as you say well I would doubt she knows a lot about positive methods or else doesnt communicate them clearly. The instructions are totally lacking. I would have thought she would have shown you in detail the steps you need to follow. I am not surprised at your lack of success given how much detail her instructions missed. Sounded to me like you got as far as luring the puppy at your leg, not teaching it to find the correct position with marking and reward. 

She was very quick to move to a pinch collar. I find that kinda bizarre really.


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## Dave Colborn

vicki dickey said:


> Maggie I have not trained nor been in competition for nearly 11 years while I had to go thru several surgeries. Zak,my 16 month old, is the first dog that I have trained for competition in 11 years and in those years a lot has changed in dog training. If I sound like I do not have a clue its because of the changes and the growth in dog training since I last trained a dog. I am trying to catch up and learn. The only bad question or stupid question is the one not asked. I have never said I was some big trainer-I dont pretend to know all the answers and I do not brag about what big wins my dogs have brought home. I enjoy working with my dogs and I get joy from their successes.
> And Peter why do you think I am on here asking questions-I want to learn from my mistakes-not keep making the same one over and over. Zak might not like OB but he loves agility and is doing great. The puppy, Indy,
> is doing great learning all the basics.
> I am not on here trying to brag or put on airs although I am proud of my dogs. I cant offer anyone training advice because I am trying to learn myself but I can write about how a class I am in is being taught, how using a method worked or did not work for a dog I am working with, or share something that I learned. I thought this forum was a great tool for learning and sharing with people who loved working with dogs and were willing to share their knowledge, but I think I was wrong. I doubt I will ever post again. I was never unkind to anyone on this forum and wonder why some people are so quick to put another down.


Vicki,

Stay and read and you may learn lots and contribute as well. You have to do what's right for you. 

I was waiting for a punchline, because your motivational only trainer gave you a pinch. To me, she just sent you to find a another trainer, as a pinch, although positive punishment, is not really a tool in the arsenal of a positive trainer. So I was sort of waiting for the "here's your pinch, go find another trainer" "You drove me so crazy I had to renounce my positive training methods" etc, kind of comment.

There are no facial expressions, tones, gestures or anything else to help people (me in this case) understand what you are communicating in this medium. Therefore you have to be clear, or answer questions to make what you are saying clear. 

People get frustrated when terms have to be defined, but lets face it, this forum has a lot of different languages being spoken on it, all being conveyed in English for the most part. By different languages, I refer to different diciplinces, sport (mondio, psa, KNPV, IPO, SchH, Rally, ring) , police K9 (US and abroad) etc. Each area has it's own dialect in a base language of dog training. Common ground on terms has to be met, or there is no communication, and much is lost.

Also, get thicker skinned. You can always find something to learn as far as what to do or what not to do here, whether you like peoples attitudes or not. And none of us affect how you do things, other than opinion, unless you invite us to your home to work with your dogs. 

Good luck to you


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## Connie Sutherland

That saved me a bunch o' typing. :lol:

I too was waiting for either a punchline or a "Ha ha, gotcha!" ending to the purely-positive trainer with the prong. 

Definitions are major trip-ups on web boards. It's amazing how much calmer a discussion can become (note I said _calmer_, not _calm_  ) once the people shaking their heads in frustration over definitions that do not match their own understand what the problem is.


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