# Best muzzle fighting punch I have seen!



## Andy Deitz (May 18, 2008)

This is from a decoy seminar this last weekend, just wanted to share with everyone. This has to be one of the best hits I have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZE9nXb_n1w


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

so sweet


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## Rich Love (Sep 15, 2008)

_omg outch _


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Andy Deitz said:


> This is from a decoy seminar this last weekend, just wanted to share with everyone. This has to be one of the best hits I have seen.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZE9nXb_n1w


How many dogs are trained to target the decoys mouth/jaw while working in muzzle? It looked like a poor catch on the part of the decoy and poor targeting from the dog. Looked like more accident then anything else.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

I am with Thomas.

Bet the decoy never does that non move ever again


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## Andy Deitz (May 18, 2008)

You people are pretty amazing. Its a great video of a muzzle fighting hit, nothing more nothing less. The dogs are not trained to target the face, but the most amazing thing happened, dogs are animals and sometimes do unpredictable things(the dog actually hit in the neck)and the decoy did not move on purpose.

Most of the hits of the day where with the decoy sideways curled up a bit. They wanted the dogs to get a little different look so some where given straight on. 

And Im sure the decoy will do the non move again, he was fine and continued decoying for the next three hours


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Andy Deitz said:


> You people are pretty amazing. Its a great video of a muzzle fighting hit, nothing more nothing less. The dogs are not trained to target the face, but the most amazing thing happened, dogs are animals and sometimes do unpredictable things(the dog actually hit in the neck)and the decoy did not move on purpose.
> 
> Most of the hits of the day where with the decoy sideways curled up a bit. They wanted the dogs to get a little different look so some where given straight on.
> 
> And Im sure the decoy will do the non move again, he was fine and continued decoying for the next three hours


The line is long here and the pants got the big piss spots on they sit and wait to piss on the cheerios.
Nice Shot Man!!! ware did this take place I think I may recognise one of the cops


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

The dog hit him in the chest but his momentum took the muzzle up into his face . Nice hit . 

Mike it sure looks like Nicole but I don't know of any recent seminars around here though .


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> The dog hit him in the chest but his momentum took the muzzle up into his face . Nice hit .
> 
> Mike it sure looks like Nicole but I don't know of any recent seminars around here though .


Damn sure looks like her


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## Andy Deitz (May 18, 2008)

Seminar was in Maine, must just be a twin


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Damn sure looks like her


Yes it does . I didn't notice til you said something . I'll have to show her .


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

the guy filming laughs like santa claus


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Targetted or not, that would suck. Nice.


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

Andy Deitz said:


> You people are pretty amazing. Its a great video of a muzzle fighting hit, nothing more nothing less. The dogs are not trained to target the face, but the most amazing thing happened, dogs are animals and sometimes do unpredictable things(the dog actually hit in the neck)and the decoy did not move on purpose.
> 
> Most of the hits of the day where with the decoy sideways curled up a bit. They wanted the dogs to get a little different look so some where given straight on.
> 
> And Im sure the decoy will do the non move again, he was fine and continued decoying for the next three hours


Although I agree that a lot of folks can be hyper critical on here, I disagree that it's " a great video of a muzzle fighting hit"
Muzzle work should be done in closer proximity. You would not need it if the target was that far away.
I like to see a couple close body "punches" then quick release the muzzle.

Thanks for sharing regardless...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Kevin Walsh said:


> Although I agree that a lot of folks can be hyper critical on here, I disagree that it's " a great video of a muzzle fighting hit"
> Muzzle work should be done in closer proximity. You would not need it if the target was that far away.
> I like to see a couple close body "punches" then quick release the muzzle.
> 
> Thanks for sharing regardless...


Kevin , 

Why do you use a muzzle that way , to only closer proximity ? 

With my current PSD I've trained using the muzzle alot more then my first or any PSD I've ever trained . Regardless I utilize the muzzle for probably 99% of the dogs I've worked with . 

I start out having the dog wear it in many different situations . Just hanging out with me , basic OB , riding in the squad , around the home , etc. . Just to get the muzzle to be as neutral as possible to the dog . 

When I get into street work I do the same thing . He wears it during tracking , outside open area searches , building searches , etc. , and I mix it up if it ends in a fight or just the dog locating , barking and chasing the guy off without a fight . 

As for how it's used in a fight it's in any situation the PSD might find itself on the street . From the ends of tracks , off lead searches , on running decoys after a fake carchase , fleeing suspects , suspects that may dodge the K9 coming in , to something similar to this video . You name it if I think I might see it on the street I train for it in muzzle . I also try and use as many different decoys as possible . 


For me it's mainly an attempt to reduce the number of cues to the dog as possible that it's a training exercise . It also does expose dogs to learning the benefit of using their bodys in different ways in a fight . My current K9's first running takedown I could see the influence the muzzle had on him . He hit the guy's right tricep from behind both at a full run and swung his body into the suspect riding him to the ground . It didn't really matter to me how he did it just as long as he chased , bit and stopped the badguy , but it was interesting behavior none the less and was beautiful to see .

I like to use the muzzle in as many different situations as possible in training . As for doing alot of hits like the one in the video here , for the dogs own good I wouldn't do too much of them . I don't see a need for that dog . I'd move on to other muzzle exercises instead .

As for the ground fighting I also like to see different things by the decoy . Rolling , knees , forearms to the dog directing the dog more towards the torso . I also for some dogs like to see him crawl quickly away on his stomach as the dog fights . Wrapping , wrestling fine sometimes too . Like most of my muzzle training I want the dog to see different types of fights on the ground from length of time to how the decoy resists . If the way a muzzle training exercise has too many limits on how it should be done then that just goes against my philosophy on what it's being used to teach a dog . 

As for what this discussion was mainly about , I think the dog hit nice and knocked the snot out of the guy .


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Video can not tell the whole story.

My question is what was being done in the training.

Civil bites being preped or is the dog to be only used such as a service dog who never works the street without a muzzle on.

That was beyond a dangeous test. Far to much distance between the handler and the decoy.

That high upper chest shot could in fact knock the wind out of the decoy placing him at a big disadvantage. Not to forget the dog went next to the head. Yikes !!!!!

All that had to happen was a failure of the muzzle to stay on and buddy would have been a real bite bag until the gang could get there. Only a few moments to have an accident that is life long.

One thing I have learned over the years. The real biters/fighters. They all want eye contact and if you do not train the target then the dog will become a face biter.

That dog "appears" already into head shots.

jmo

jc


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Awesome hit, powerful dog.

I know NOTHING about muzzle training, but as someone who loves training dogs, Jim's logic seems sound to me.. Why would you only want to train under one set of circumstances? I understand safety could be an issue, but for the sake of developing a completely trustworthy dog, capable of protecting his/her handler in any situation, I feel as many different scenarios should be thrown at the dog (in training) as possible..


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> As for what this discussion was mainly about , I think the dog hit nice and knocked the snot out of the guy .


The hit was nice, the targeting wasn't. Hardly the "best muzzle punch".
Also "knocked the snot out of the guy" is a long way from knocking him out, like the title of the video said. There is so much hype and BS about dog training on the internet. If you don't go oh ahh about every mediocre video that someone posts. You're pissing in someone Cheerios? LMAO


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The hit was nice, the targeting wasn't. Hardly the "best muzzle punch".
> Also "knocked the snot out of the guy" is a long way from knocking him out, like the title of the video said. There is so much hype and BS about dog training on the internet. If you don't go oh ahh about every mediocre video that someone posts. You're pissing in someone Cheerios? LMAO


Thomas , I guess I didn't read into it the way you did . If the guy would have said " Best Muzzle Punch Ever " I would have responded differently . But he stated it was the best muzzle punch HE had ever seen . 

I never said anything about knocking him out . He didn't look knocked out to me . I did see a dog that hit the guy hard and commented on it . Sorry to piss in your cheerios .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Video can not tell the whole story.
> 
> My question is what was being done in the training.
> 
> ...



I don't know anything about the video or the training . I replayed the video a few times along with pausing it . I saw a dog comming in hard hitting the decoy in the chest and because of his speed the muzzle skidded up the chest into the face . It didn't look like the dog was going there the momentum took him there . I agree and have already said I wouldn't do that again with that dog .


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The hit was nice, the targeting wasn't. Hardly the "best muzzle punch".


100% in agreement. My sick side loved the hit but the targeting was very bad.

This is one training senario that can take a cue from the sporties.

It is called a bungy cord and those real good high trial dogs. Those distance bites are all done on bungy. The only time no bungy is trial day.



Too bad the video was cut off. We never did see if the dog wa given a real bite.

Knocked Out, Big Stretch. False

None the less, dog has the balls to work


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

No offense, but I really don't see the use of this exercise.
Why would you send out your dog to attack at such a distance with a muzzle on???

In real life work IMO a muzzle should be used to impress the subject and make him "knocked out" for just a moment. This moment would serve you to pull off the muzzle and be ready yourself too for eventual further action. No way you can achieve this by letting your dog go...
Keep the dog close. Launch him at the right moment and let him give just one lethal punch and get back to his owner. At least that's how we do it.

NVBK muzzle exercise is based on that. No fighting, only waiting for the right moment, one very hard punch and return to business.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Thomas , I guess I didn't read into it the way you did . If the guy would have said " Best Muzzle Punch Ever " I would have responded differently . But he stated it was the best muzzle punch HE had ever seen .
> 
> >I guess the OP needs to see just about any club level
> >NVBK object guard to see a better muzzle punch? There was
> ...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> No offense, but I really don't see the use of this exercise.
> Why would you send out your dog to attack at such a distance with a muzzle on???
> 
> In real life work IMO a muzzle should be used to impress the subject and make him "knocked out" for just a moment. This moment would serve you to pull off the muzzle and be ready yourself too for eventual further action. No way you can achieve this by letting your dog go...
> ...


I've never sent a K9 on a real attack with the muzzle on and have never heard of it being done . It was a training exercise to get the dog to engage someone with no equipment on to cue the dog .


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> How many dogs are trained to target the decoys mouth/jaw while working in muzzle? It looked like a poor catch on the part of the decoy and poor targeting from the dog. Looked like more accident then anything else.


I totally agree, but it was still fun to watch!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> 100% in agreement. My sick side loved the hit but the targeting was very bad.
> 
> This is one training senario that can take a cue from the sporties.
> 
> ...



I disagree . Not totally against a bungy dependant on the goal we are working on but with muzzle work I want to avoid , if possible , any equipment that is going to cue the dog . The bungy isn't bad in intitially training the hit when progressing from posting the dog and having the decoy come in . But for PSD work I want to get away from that quickly once he's hitting and targetting well . Then I want to progress into many different scenerios and situations the dogs might see for real .

If I do distance hits like this I've done things like start the dog off either with the decoy running away so the impact isn't so great or on something like in the video starting off with the dog on a slippery floor so he can't get that much speed and/or have the decoy back up before impact so it isn't so bad . I don't do too much of this high impact stuff , but it's good to give PSDs exposure to that type of situation , IMO . 

As for slipping the muzzle for another bite I don't think it was going to happen in the video . I didn't see the decoy wearing any equipment for that , unless there was someone else around waiting . 

I very rarely slip the muzzle for a bite . I have for a few dogs but for most the purpose of the muzzle in my use for it is mainly for him to engage a decoy with no equipment on , fight him and drive him away . Because of this I make sure the muzzle is on securely before the dog starts . Once again , not against it and have done it but I tend to avoid it . 

As for the dog's targetting I saw a dog targeting a little higher in the chest then most and upon impact the momentum(not the dogs choice) causing the muzzle to slide up the chest into the decoys face but not one targeting the face . Just my opinion on what I saw .

Never noticed the video's title . I guess if I thought for a minute anyone would believe he was knocked out I'd address it . I think it's obvious he wasn't . I also didn't think this discussion was started to impress anyone with the training . I at least took it that it was about the dog hitting a decoy hard nothing more . He did that . 

Thomas glad to hear you're avoiding the Cheerios .


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> I disagree . Not totally against a bungy dependant on the goal we are working on but with muzzle work I want to avoid , if possible , any equipment that is going to cue the dog . .


Big argument on my part here.

The dog was burning the floor with a lead on. Dangerous to do that.

The dog could have been caught up on the line used and broke his neck.

What is that psd worth and man would whoever pay for that mistake.


The handler learned nothing.

The pooch should have been sent without the lead. Too much distance.

Easy to walk up and reconect the dog.

Good topic, real life works for me.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've reviewed this tape some more and after pausing it several times at the moment of impact I can see the dog initially hit the decoy in the lower part of his sternum and was then driven up into the decoy's face by the impact . I don't see anything wrong with the dog's initial targeting .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Big argument on my part here.
> 
> The dog was burning the floor with a lead on. Dangerous to do that.
> 
> ...


Jerry not sure where you got out of my previous post that I was promoting sending a dog with the lead on . If that's the case for the record I don't . I agree with you on this post .


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## Rachel Kilburn (May 12, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> How many dogs are trained to target the decoys mouth/jaw while working in muzzle? It looked like a poor catch on the part of the decoy and poor targeting from the dog. Looked like more accident then anything else.


 
Thank you I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this when I saw this....


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Other than the title, who cares...the dog engaged and stayed engage.....how many have you seen that wouldn't.....if this is a PSD, then he did his job, things happen, people move, dogs slip, he engaged and stayed engaged. 

Some dogs taught so much targetting hurts them in the real world when that target isn't present, they aren't so intense to bite or hit in this case someplace else....


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> Other than the title, who cares...the dog engaged and stayed engage.....how many have you seen that wouldn't.....if this is a PSD, then he did his job, things happen, people move, dogs slip, he engaged and stayed engaged.
> 
> Some dogs taught so much targetting hurts them in the real world when that target isn't present, they aren't so intense to bite or hit in this case someplace else....


Wrong Jody, catch a selectif and see dogs enter the zone knowing the target is there even if the sight is not present.

Can be donw so why not do this

ANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

The dog did fine, no one else did


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

He targeted center mass and hit the ten ring, bullseye, all the rest is idle banter


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Wrong Jody, catch a selectif and see dogs enter the zone knowing the target is there even if the sight is not present.
> 
> Can be donw so why not do this
> 
> ...


 
Hey thanks for point out how wrong I am....


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Wrong Jody, catch a selectif and see dogs enter the zone knowing the target is there even if the sight is not present.
> 
> Can be donw so why not do this
> 
> ...


 
Send a dog in a room that knows his target and target area (bite)......said decoy lifts filing cabinet up as dog approaches, does dog just go through it????? What happens as the dog circles the decoy looking for the target??? When the legs may very well be present, takes numerous attempts or kicking the dog some time in order to get him to bite.

Not saying all dogs do this or your kick ass dogs do it, but alot of specific targetting more in the sport world is just like training a sleeve dog to bite a man for real. Most PSD's aren't taught to target, they bite when and what they are told. (Tunnels, tight areas, under vehicles, etc...sometimes your only going to get a piece of someone to grab onto)

But, who am I anyway, just a few thoughts...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Muzzle fighting is good but not on the ground. Ground muzzle fighting teaches the dog to fight who is on the ground if they are on the ground when the dog gets there. The one on the ground getting his butt handed to him could be his handler. Not a good idea to me. In my opinion if the dog has the balls to hit a stand up decoy, he'll fight to the ground. He doesn't need to be taught this.

PS : That was a hard hit no matter what.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Muzzle fighting is good but not on the ground. Ground muzzle fighting teaches the dog to fight who is on the ground if they are on the ground when the dog gets there. The one on the ground getting his butt handed to him could be his handler. Not a good idea to me. In my opinion if the dog has the balls to hit a stand up decoy, he'll fight to the ground. He doesn't need to be taught this.
> 
> PS : That was a hard hit no matter what.


You bring up a good issue for others to be aware of . I changed the amount of ground fighting I do in training because of that discussion years ago . I still feel that some ground is benificial as long as you aren't training the dog like you said , to associate fighting anything that they find on the ground . 

Jerry is talking about the issue some dogs have in a handler protection situation where the dog goes after whoever is on the bottom . Be it badguy or handler . Regardless if you do groundfighting in muzzle or not I suggest anyone who may find themselves in that position ( a Police K9 handler certainly might) that they test there dog before they might find out for real their dog has that problem . 

The best way is to do it in muzzle so the dog doesn't see any equipment to cue the dog on who to go after . Also don't use a decoy that the dog has seen before in a fight . That's also a cue . 

For PSDs we set it up leaving the dog in the squad and have the handler confront the "badguy" a fight ensues and the badguy gets the handler on the ground and is on top of the handler fighting . The handler hits his bailout and lets the dog out of the car . From there you'll soon know who the dog is going to prefer to go after .


I still wonder how much of that behavior is because of ground fighting training or a dogs natural reaction to that situation . Either way ground fighting , in muzzle or in a suit may enhance that problem .


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> I still wonder how much of that behavior is because of ground fighting training or a dogs natural reaction to that situation . Either way ground fighting , in muzzle or in a suit may enhance that problem .


My thoughts are that the dog has a natural reaction. 

Strong dogs love to be above, higher than the bad guy. Bigger than in their mind.

Same dog who has lets say a level 5 aggression from conventional (the dog) stand on the ground training.

Take the same dog and place him on a platform that puts him above the bad guy and stimulate the dog.

That level 5 goes to a higher level. You likely will say then that the dog is stronger than you originaly thought.

The situation mentioned here about an officer being thrown to the ground. Triggers the dogs desire to go for what the dog believes is below him.

Major issue that requires training to counter this problem.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> My thoughts are that the dog has a natural reaction.
> 
> Strong dogs love to be above, higher than the bad guy. Bigger than in their mind.
> 
> ...


I agree . I'd just like to see a test like the one I described using an equal number of dogs with training for ground fighting compared to an equal number of dogs without ground fighting training and see how it shakes out . 

My guess would be there would be a good number of dogs that never had ground fighting training that would still go for the handler if he was on the bottom for the reasons you just gave . I would also guess the number would be even higher for those with ground fighting training but it would be nice to know how bad ground fighting training actually increases the likelihood .


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The Lyda boys have already tested this theory. It can be trained out of the dog for sure. My thing is this...if you train hands on in concert with the dog on the ground then you should be fine. I never had a problem training ground fighting with a muzzle. How many times do bad guys hide on the ground, balled up and passive hoping the dog will leave them and not engage? 

Most of my ground fighting with a muzzle was training the passive engagement in younger dogs after they've had some standup muzzle work. It's not uncommon at all to find the dog will stop fighting a downed, passive person. Not all dogs enjoy beating the crap out of people in this situation and if you find yourself with a dog like this the behavior has to be modified to keep the dog active. Not all dogs need ground fighting but many do.


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Kevin ,
> 
> Why do you use a muzzle that way , to only closer proximity ?


I agree with all of the things you replied with, but if I am going to send a dog from that distance, he's not going to have a muzzle on.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

It was definately a powerful shot I wouldn't even say it has anything to do with targeting. I have only done I think 2 or 3 muzzle sessions with my guy and he has a desire for head, neck and upper chest. My female (in a non bitework scenario) had a muzzle on and punched a guy in his crotch. These aren't areas that I have ever targetted. I have seen several dogs change their "target" area when in a muzzle. Especially if the guy is on the ground! Thanks for sharing the video and kudos to the decoy for continuing to work, he definately could have gotten hurt worse.


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