# So what's the problem?



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Just looking at some of the other threads and Chris made the comment that he was tired of Schutzhund. This was ringing like bells in my head! So, what is the problem you are having with the training area you're in or were in? Tracking, Ring, Schutzhund, or other venue. I think it would be interesting to hear about some real issues without "calling out" clubs or TDs.

For me the sport Schutzhund thing was a training time joke. Big egos, it seemed like nobody wanted to help because THEY were too good to help, and then when you get to the next level in the game...nothing but hate and back stabbing. "It's all about ME!" [-X I hated it...

Now I do like the K-9 training group I'm in because it is about real training and just having fun...like a new shot of fresh air. Folks want to help, give their ideas without feeling like they are being shot down, and there's no real pressure unless you put it on yourself.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Now I do like the K-9 training group I'm in because it is about real training and just having fun...like a new shot of fresh air. Folks want to help, give their ideas without feeling like they are being shot down, and there's no real pressure unless you put it on yourself.


The above description fits my schH club nearly to a T. The only difference is that my TD puts a bit of pressure (on me anyway!) to really think things thru...challenges me a bit so that I HAve to think it thru...I appreciate that too, that he doesn't necessarily come right out and hand over "the answer".

eek: I wonder if he's reading this! Don't want it to go to his head!!! LOL) 

But Howard, I think you just were not training with the RIGHT scHH club.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michele I fully agree with that, it was the WRONG club and the mix of self centered people. Much good can be had from a positive group!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm happy and exited I've been with my club MVSV/Minnesota Vally Schutzhund Verein for soon to be 15 years I have a super young dog and look forward to SH I, II, III next year. I wish we had more helpers all the nubys are women so any one from the Minneapolis St Paul twin cities area looking for some great Schutzhund and lots of girls/women come on out!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'm happy and exited I've been with my club MVSV/Minnesota Vally Schutzhund Verein for soon to be 15 years I have a super young dog and look forward to SH I, II, III next year. I wish we had more helpers all the nubys are women so any one from the Minneapolis St Paul twin cities area looking for some great Schutzhund and lots of girls/women come on out!



Mike's club was great when I went for a visit. 

The clubs I know in AZ all have issues. I've been a part of two them and left both.

I'll write more later.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

A small one really, but...

Aside from all my personal issues (learning to be a better handler, having a dog that may not the best candidate for the sport, trying to get out to training often enough) one of the issues I'm having is working a Malinois in a GSD centered sport. 

Some of the posts I've read here in different threads on gsd vs malinois action/reaction is so bang on for my dog, it's like I sit here and go yes! that's _my_ dog! That's exactly what he's like. He's not a GSD. I just wish there was some way to communicate that to the people I train with. Not that they may not be open to it, but just that they are used to working dogs a certain way and that works for them... and who am I, as someone new to the sport, to say they're not doing it right??


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> A small one really, but...
> 
> Aside from all my personal issues (learning to be a better handler, having a dog that may not the best candidate for the sport, trying to get out to training often enough) one of the issues I'm having is working a Malinois in a GSD centered sport.
> 
> Some of the posts I've read here in different threads on gsd vs malinois action/reaction is so bang on for my dog, it's like I sit here and go yes! that's _my_ dog! That's exactly what he's like. He's not a GSD. I just wish there was some way to communicate that to the people I train with. Not that they may not be open to it, but just that they are used to working dogs a certain way and that works for them... and who am I, as someone new to the sport, to say they're not doing it right??



try working with a rottweiler and the attitudes against them.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> try working with a rottweiler and the attitudes against them.


Long ago apon entering the Schutzhund with my Rottweiler for obediance I walked up to the Judge Bill Fields RIP and introduced my self. He replyed I'm going to start you at 85 points 10 for coming out here with a Rottweiler and 5 for letting me see you take that pinch off at the gate. 
Our score was 88 :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Clubs are very similar in some ways as forums like this. You take in all that's said then decide who makes sense and who doesn't. It won't take long to figure that out. You don't even have to like the person making the comment. Good dog training makes sence when you hear it. IF you listen to it! 
Nobody is worth getting excited over if they dissagree with you. Nobody is worth "drinking the koolaid" either. 
Many?most clubs are created as off shoots of another club based on personality conflicts or training diasagreements. I can work next to any personality. I can work alonside someone that disagrees with me. I can work next to people I don't even like!
I do this all because !!! I ENJOY PLAYING WITH MY DOGS !!!
I'm also a nice old grandpa now. :evil: :evil:
Read my sub line/biline/whatever they call that wonderful quote at the bottom of my posts! :-D :-D O


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree fully, Bob. You don't have to like the instructor, he just has to make sure you make the mark. A good trainer produces even better trainers. I was trained by 2 machos but they knew what they were doing. A thick skin is useful, especially around the helpers but I have found that the nice, friendly helpers don't get the results and the dogs do what they want with them. Just my experience.

We've got lots of clubs - all breed, SV (here "SC") and most have their internal problems - just like work places. Some just come to profit and some help the club and the less experienced members. 

The difference between clubs and forums in my mind is, that you can't brag and get away with it if you're trialling, especialy in small country like ours.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

There are four clubs in my metro area. I've been an executive member of two clubs and have visited the other two that I never joined. 

When my dog was 16 wks old, I called club #1. I told them I met Mike Ellis the week before and he thought I had a good looking prospect but they wanted to evaluate the puppy as expected. I asked about training methods and they said they employ positive motivation techniques ala Balabanov... that's exactly what I was looking for so I went to check out the club and have the pup evaluated. The TD asked at this club asked how I met Mike Ellis and I met him via xxx xxxxx - a local trainer and schH afficianado I'd been seeing since the dog was 8wks old. As soon as I mentioned his name the attitude at club #1 changed, suddenly the TD thought my dog was crap and had no drive. I was told then and there they didn't think my dog was suitable for schH. I know what a drivey pup is like and he was a very mouthy and drivey pup and had already been evaluated by two top notch schH guys. I questioned the TD and then I was asked to leave. OK, whatever....

I called my OB guy and he suggested club #2 because his club doesn't work with puppies unless you're already a member or have titled several dogs or was overwhelmingly voted in. He said the way I was treated at #1 was expected as there is bad blood between both parties. He said don't take it personally. I didn't.

I went to club #2. At the time I joined one of the Nat'l schH trial helpers left club #4 due to political reasons. He was very encouraging and thought my little guy was special for a rottweiler. He said he had an eye for it. This made me feel good especially since Mike Ellis had said the same thing two weeks before. Things were great for awhile. A few more people joined and soon enough I was taken under the wing of a very experienced handler. This is when things became divided. Now there were two people who had the credentials to be the TD BUT they trained in very different ways and those guys didn't like each other. Soon after the in fighting began. 

I don't understand why the members couldn't just train they way they wanted. I wasn't into the yank, crank and shock style of training and the guy I liked was a Balabanov guy. Things became so divisive that there became two camps within the club and attitudes vs the other always flared. Four of us left this club and started our own.

Welcome to Club #3. Now we were a bunch of guys just training dogs and we had a major trial helper running the show. The problem was there was nobody to work his dogs so he started inviting other training helpers to the club to work his dog. This "new" helper noticed my dog and thought I should be doing different things and he'd like to help. Since he lived close, I started working with him on the side (no charge) - after a few sessions it's clear that my dog is becoming strong and is now the most prominent dog in the club. I still show up to every session that club #3 holds, sometimes, I was the only guy there! I like the way my dog is being worked by the new helper and start telling the TD what I want him to do. Which was add a bit a pressure (hand in the face or over the head) and don't chunk the tug into the dog's mouth, make him strike it. Basic training stuff.

Soon after that a schH USA judge in Cali was working our dogs. I'm talking to him and telling him what were working on. The TD from club #3 tosses out a bite wedge. I said were working on a sleeve now. Then Mr nat'l trial helper steps in and says, "that dog needs to be on a bite wedge, he's not ready for a sleeve." So Judge says "let's test him" a few rounds with the wedge and then a few with the sleeve. HE'S READY FOR THE SLEEVE" Afterwards he said "I've maybe seen five Rottweilers like that one." :grin:

The next time I go to the club I'm told the TD helper will no longer work my dog and the newly crowned "basic level trial helper" was going to work the young dogs. I questioned that and said young dogs need a good foundation and work with an experienced helper and an inexperienced helper could screw him up. The TD said "well that's the way it's going to be." So I left the club.

In the mean time, I'd been training with several people on the side from club #4. These are the people I train with now. 

To summerize, the schH people I've met (not all) seem to have the "my dog is better than yours attitude". So what? That's like saying my wife is prettier than yours. To me it doesn't matter. I don't understand why it matters and why people can't work to help each other to make each other's dogs as best as they can be. There were guys in every club I've been a part of that had dogs that just didn't have it. I always tried to help them however I could where others always ignored them.

Until I see otherwise schH people are no different than show people. Of course this doesn't apply to everybody especially if my dog is better than yours. LOL


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I feel ya on that Chirs. If someone wont work my dog the way I want, I go to someone who will. I avoid the Sch clubs but have worked with Sch decoys, they have their strong points but the clubs themselves get crazy if you train with someone else. Like they want all the credit if your dog turns out nice. I dunno what it is besides allot of ego but it's not for me. I go where my dog needs to go and if someone doesn't like it, they can kiss my you know what. I'm there for the dog not the politics.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> nts but the clubs themselves get crazy if you train with someone else. Like they want all the credit if your dog turns out nice. I dunno what it is besides allot of ego but it's not for me.


Sometimes it's ego, but sometime it isn't. I've been in quite a few clubs over the years, was one of the main decoys for one of the clubs for many years. And one thing I've seen over and over is someone who takes their dog to someone else to train it "because my dog needs X and they will do it" and one of two things happens
1) they don't tell the club where they are going or what they are doing, the club is training the dog like usual, and what the club is doing is directly counter productive to what the other person is doing. Even if the training each group is doing is good training, it can clash sometimes. So the dog isn't making progress on any front. 
2) The outside training screws up the dog, and then the person brings the dog back to the club and expects the club to fix it. 

After this has happened a few times at a club, I can't say I blame the club for taking a "choose a trainer and stick with them" attitude. Especially with people that are newer to the sport. It's frustrating to put a ton of time and effort into a dog only to see the handler take the dog somewhere else, and set back your training by months. On the flip side, as someone who will occasionally go to someone who I feel has something to offer that my dog needs/is missing, I can understand the frustration with the "train here and nowhere else, or find someone else to train with" attitude also.

So I see both sides of it. And it's not always ego driven, although sometimes it is.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I agree Kadi but in my circumstance, I mentioned to the TD that his friend wants to train on the side with me what do you think? His words were "If he'll do that for you then go for it". I did it with his blessing. Afterall, I was working with the guy HE brought in to work his dog.

In this case it was clearly ego and that's too bad because I really liked those guys. I haven't begun to tell the stories about how I felt screwed over.

I said I was quitting because I was part of a club that only has one helper and he won't work my dog. That meant there was nothing I could get out of the club. I was the OB guy so they couldn't help me there AND that club didn't have any equipment ie; Jumps etc. So there was literally no reason to be there. The President begged me to stay and I said I'd come back if there was a helper. Then there were arguments about how HE was a certified helper. Yeah certified trial helper a few weeks before. The TD didn't even want him working his dog. Why should I have let him work my puppy? I let him try once and he would get full frontal on him and just stand there. XXX you have to move the tug side to side and don't stand full on like that... shit my wife worked my dog better than him the one time she tried.

Anyway, I didn't come back and then they started sending nasty emails to my work. Labeled PERSONAL EMAIL. In short, I now think they are a bunch of losers. And definitely don't help the schH attitude that many of us perceive. 





Kadi Thingvall said:


> Sometimes it's ego, but sometime it isn't. I've been in quite a few clubs over the years, was one of the main decoys for one of the clubs for many years. And one thing I've seen over and over is someone who takes their dog to someone else to train it "because my dog needs X and they will do it" and one of two things happens
> 1) they don't tell the club where they are going or what they are doing, the club is training the dog like usual, and what the club is doing is directly counter productive to what the other person is doing. Even if the training each group is doing is good training, it can clash sometimes. So the dog isn't making progress on any front.
> 2) The outside training screws up the dog, and then the person brings the dog back to the club and expects the club to fix it.
> 
> ...


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

A lot of years ago, I had an awesome young shepherd, new to any kind of sport venue and was interested in Schutzhund, went to a local club,watched them train, and when inquired how I could go about getting involved, getting my dog tested, all I got was a very cold shoulder...so I trained with the local sherrif K9's trainer...who treated me very well and taught me tons! Later I was welcomed by the ring guys and the Protection sport guys-PSA, ASR,K9prosports etc.-
maybe some day I will go back and try out Schutzhund? don't know, pretty happy with the type of training I am doing now.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I had experience with one Sch club. They evaluated my pup when he was about 4 months old, said he could do it, but the whole vibe I got from all the members aside from the TD was not good. Snooty/snobby. I didn't go back, and didn't do any kind of "formal" bite training for 2 years after that. We played a lot of tug and rag work since that stuff is easy to read about and do with your dog.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> Until I see otherwise schH people are no different than show people. Of course this doesn't apply to everybody especially if my dog is better than yours. LOL


Hi Chris

I know or know of most of the folks you are referring to and feel your pain. Yours is not an isolated case and it is what really frustrates me with this sport. For some reason this sport lends to huge, fragile egos, that's why there are so many clubs. If there is a difference of opinion instead of working it out a new club is formed. Now we have a bunch of small clubs who dictate the way dogs should be trained and what methods the members can use. Heaven forbid a member should seek outside assistance or go to a seminar that isn't approve by the TD. Instead of embracing a different method to suite the individual they toss you out of the club or say the dog's a "piece". Our club is fortunate to have a TD that is open to any and all training methods as long as it is safe for the dog, helpers and fellow club members. That might not have been the case a number of years ago but it is now, maybe he's just softening with age  I know there are also some other clubs in our region that also share that same philosophy vs "my way or the highway". We have many years of experience and valuable resources that could be shared and a more cohesive region if the egos were simply put aside.


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