# Scratch Pants



## Andy Andrews

Okay, so I'll be getting a bitesuit soon, but our little group does occasionally train in/for schutzhund. So, I'm curious about scratch pants and how much protection they offer against dirty bites? 

Also, has anyone heard of CAN-AM before? They have an eBay store for dog training equipment and their prices don't seem bad at all.



Andy.


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## Phil Dodson

> I have talked to a few people who have ordered equipment from him, I heard nothing negitive. I trained with Pierre LaFond (owner) of Can Am in the 80s several times with our malinois MWDs when he had his dog training business, "Washington K-9 Acadamy" in Tacoma, Wa. He was quite an honest and straight forward person then.


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## Amber Scott Dyer

I don't know about scratch pants, but I have heard a couple of people say that the bitesuits from Can Am won't last any length of time with hard biting dogs.


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## Howard Gaines III

Andy, I use scratch pants instead of an apron. I have the Ray Allen leatherlites. They have a front "cup" plate, zip legs, and are very well made. I have had them for about 10 years. As far as bite protection, I've never had that issue with them so I can't tell you anything. Traditionally they will do very little with a hard biting dog. They do keep you from being cut up with the dog's nails and give nice warmth for this time of year. You will spend about $350 for them. I give them two thumbs up!


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## Kyle Sprag

Scratch pants can save your azz. This is a friends dog that bites Very hard, the guy escaped with minor injuries. I am not impressed with CanAm equipment at all. I have some Bende synthetic ones that work well but like the leather the best.


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## Phil Dodson

> Man, that was a "BITE"!!!


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## Jerry Lyda

You need a more legged decoy. A dog can get a full grip on that one. ) If you are going scratch pants go with the leather and more leg.


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## Andy Andrews

Thanks for the photo, Kyle! Reminds me of the situation I narrowly escaped yesterday... Found out my training partner's dog retargets as I lost my balance and nearly fell over during a bite!  #-o LOL

About the CAN-AM stuff. Not sure about the quality, but like I said, their prices are pretty nice. Saw a pair of scatch pants auctioned off for like $86 the other day. Plus, there are several levels of padding thickness to choose from. So I'm thinking they'll probably be good enough for our use.

Jerry, 

What do you mean by 'more leg'?



Andy.


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## Jerry Lyda

Bigger around, just for protection sake.

I'm just funnin.


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## Greg Leavitt

I had a pair of the can am scratch pants and they ripped after less than a month. I ponied up and bought the schweirkt aero leatherlike scratch pants last year and love them. Talked to an experience decoy at a trial yesterday who said he had had his schweirkts for over ten years and they are still in good shape.


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## Howard Gaines III

Kyle that's not a dog bite, it'a a K9 tatoo! YIPES!


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## Tamara Eckhardt

I'm not sure if this can help, as this company is in germany. 
We've got many articles from that distributor for our club when train a Schutzhund. 

The other fact is, that our manager (I hope this is the right translation for a high club member) is a police man. He trained his prospects for the Nuremberg area. Many articles we have to train with, are ascertained ones from the police. 

http://www.schweikert-hundesport.de/corporate/en.html

Greetings from Tamara and Fenja


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## Justin Eimer

Kyle Sprag said:


> Scratch pants can save your azz. This is a friends dog that bites Very hard, the guy escaped with minor injuries. I am not impressed with CanAm equipment at all. I have some Bende synthetic ones that work well but like the leather the best.


The dog looks like the late Risen Star's Olaf AKA Vito. If it is him, he was a very nice, hard biting dog!
Scratch pants will afford some minimal protection, but nothing you can rely on. 
As for CANAM, a buddy had a suit (PSA Decoy) that held up very well for a number of years. The suit was made to his specifications. I have heard positive and negative, but for the price... Good luck finding anything comparable at such a steal.


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## Howard Gaines III

Kyle how long ago did that bite happen and did it look "better" 4 days later? What did you put on it? Some folks talk about "Liquid Freeze."


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## Andy Andrews

Thanks to everyone for the input. I'm thinking I'll just go ahead and try a pair of CAN-AM pants with heavy padding. We'll see how they hold up...



Andy.


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## Kyle Sprag

Justin, yes it is.

Howard, luckily that was not my Leg but having taking bites from this dog many times I was VERY suprised just how much protection the scratch pants gave. I think the pic was taken the same day, not sure what It looked like but can bet it was pretty ugly.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Howard Gaines III said:


> Kyle that's not a dog bite, it'a a K9 tatoo! YIPES!


No, THIS is a K9 tatoo

(don't look if your stomic gets upset easily, that's why I place it as a link)

http://www.vanleeuwen-hollandseherders.nl/images/dogbite.jpg


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## Andy Andrews

WTF is that, Selena??  




Andy.


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## Matthew Grubb

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> No, THIS is a K9 tatoo
> 
> (don't look if your stomic gets upset easily, that's why I place it as a link)
> 
> http://www.vanleeuwen-hollandseherders.nl/images/dogbite.jpg


Almost as good as the rather graphic one where the bad guy got bit in his "twig and berries".


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Andy Andrews said:


> WTF is that, Selena??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andy.


a dogbite.. :mrgreen:


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## David Frost

Thank you Selena. I have a feeling some of these folks had never seen a real dog bite until that picture. 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III

Selena you got the *TOP BITE PIC* award. Now that IS a bite. Anyone you know? When the command goes out, "STOP or I will send my dog" some folks might have that flash back going off. I'm just wondering if the dogs bite that good in Georgia. Looks like a gator bite to me, what do you say Jerry?


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## Jerry Lyda

We have been trying something new, to us. For the winter this works great. We bought a wet suit that divers wear and wear it under a bite suit. It may help under scratch pants as well. It is made out of neoprene(sp). Summer time down south it would be way too hot.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jerry is it a 3mm or 5mm suit? We have been thinking of the same, how do you like it and does it make you sweat too much? Coming out would be a BIG chill down. I use a neo-sleeve under all bite sleeves and wonder why I never did it before. Who says growing older doesn't make you wiser at times?


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## Andy Andrews

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> *a dogbite.. :mrgreen:*


Believe me, I know that it is, I have a scar on my leg from a similar incident. I'm just left wanting to know the details of THAT bite!! LOL 


Andy.


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## Jerry Lyda

Howard I don't know what mm it is. I bought it for my son, Jay, he may have to give you that info. I do know it's hot and he sweats a bunch like me anyway. He also uses neoprene under his suit top. We got his from a sporting store where they sell football stuff.


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## Andy Andrews

Hold the presses. Anyone ever heard of Horton's Leatherworks? I saw them mentioned once on Leerburg, and after visiting their website they seem to be making quality products. Prices aren't too bad, either.

Thanks.




Andy.


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## jay lyda

Howard, its either 2.5 or 3mm, I can't remember. Actually I cut the suit in half, its a short sleeve and shorts type of wetsuit. I cut it in a way where I can still put on the top if I want, say in the colder months, (yes we actually have cold months here in GA). Right now I sent the shorts part to a friend to sew on some belt loops and make me a belt for it so I can pull it tight so it doesn't ride down on me. But yes, it works great, I would suggest getting one if you catch a lot of leg dogs, HARD biting leg dogs. Another thing to add, is that it matches my bite suit. :razz: 

As far as the scratch pants go, all I wear is a pair of carhart overalls. I have worn them for a few years and they do fine for me and a lot cheaper. They do have a few rips in them but if you are worried about getting bit then you shouldn't be decoying. :razz:


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## Howard Gaines III

jay lyda said:


> I would suggest getting one if you catch a lot of leg dogs,


Jay great news, our dogs in Delaware have legs, four of them...darn thing though, when you try and push them over, you get bit!
OH! You meant leg biters 
We are doing alot of that and it hurts. I got some athletic foam sheets, 12" x 12" and slide them into the leg section of that ROCA suit. Man does that foam get beat! I'm going to look into that soon. It gets humid here and the wet suit might only work for a short time. We are "training" another guy to do decoy work, gives us "crips" a break. Thanks.


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## jay lyda

Wearing just the shorts isn't too bad. Its really not that hot, 'bout like wearing regular shorts I guess. But lets not forget about cups, a while back I have purchased myself a good cup. Another smart move. =D> The wetsuit shorts holds it in place good too. Try the wetsuit out, I think you'll like it.


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## Andy Andrews

Cups? LOL!! 

My training partner got a real kick out of me telling him that I bought a new muay thai cup to work his dog. Something about it being made of steel, or perhaps the way it's traditionally worn. Whatever. He thought it was funny... :mrgreen:

I mean, it's not so much that I'm afraid to get bit. Hell, I got bit the first time I worked his dog. I'm just not ready for emergent vascular surgery or getting my 'beans' bit off!! :twisted: :twisted:




Andy.


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## jay lyda

Exactly......I can take A LOT of pain, BUT, when it comes to taking a bite there, call me a wimp if you want, but that shit hurts!! If you don't wear a cup, then you just haven't worked enough dogs yet to understand the importance of it. :razz:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

about cups:

How about learning a dog not to target in the private part area?


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> about cups:
> 
> How about learning a dog not to target in the private part area?


I worked a female mali once that came from FR background, the dog would do an out/guard then re-bite in the crotch....... the original handler must have been a female


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## Trish Campbell

Husband has Schwiekert scratch pants...always has really liked them.


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## Andy Andrews

I'm really starting to like the Horton scratch pants. Might have to spend the extra money and get those instead of the CAN-AM's.


Andy.


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## jay lyda

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> about cups:
> 
> How about learning a dog not to target in the private part area?


How about, decoying trials, you have no control over where the dog was trained to target. The dogs that we train that are leg dogs DO NOT target the private area BUT on occasion they do get dirty and rebite and yes the cup can come in handy. The dogs are corrected by the handler but sometimes the damage is done. I never get bit in that area on the initial bite, so I guess we do not teach our dogs to target the private area. :razz:


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## Jerry Lyda

They don't bite you in the privates on a football nor on a baseball field but us guys learn, some not as quick as others, that protection in that area keeps our voices lower.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

jay lyda said:


> How about, decoying trials, you have no control over where the dog was trained to target. The dogs that we train that are leg dogs DO NOT target the private area BUT on occasion they do get dirty and rebite and yes the cup can come in handy. The dogs are corrected by the handler but sometimes the damage is done. I never get bit in that area on the initial bite, so I guess we do not teach our dogs to target the private area. :razz:


If that would happen on a KNPV trial, you are out of the trial. You have to garantee your dog is safe to the decoy. 
I can imagine it could happen with a young green dog, but as a handler (or 3rd man on the field) you're always close by to prevent it, or get the dog out really soon...and tell him that that is a bad thing to do..


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## jay lyda

The third man is a good idea. We like to use that one. I did not know that about KNPV as I don't compete in that, but sounds like a good idea about making sure that the dog is safe to work. I for one do not like it when dogs happen to hit that area, but it happens. Oh well, part of the game I guess. Its just something else to have to correct with training.


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## Jerry Lyda

If it happens with APPDA it's a major point deduction. If it happens enough times he will DQ. Just because a dog bites the crotch don't mean he is unsafe. If more decoys would think more about the family jewels and wear a cup, there's no way this bite would be unsafe. If that was the case then any dog that bites at all would be deamed unsafe and we know that is not true. In training true you try to prevent it from happening that's part of the training, but at trial you can't. If he does it there's a point deduction and everytime you give him the out command another point deduction. After a while he will have enough points deducted, a long with other point deductions, he will DQ. Training is important to keep this from being an issue as well as all the other places a dog will loose points. Dogs will give dirty bites no matter where the bite lands. DECOYS wear a cup.

I will start another thread to see how many decoys do not wear a cup and if not give me one good reason you don't.


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## Andy Andrews

For the record, I am NOT against a dog targeting the twig and giggle-berries. I'm just not in the habit of being unprotected in activities that allow contact...be they bjj, muay thai, or biting dogs! :twisted:

In fact, the cup idea was actually one of the first things a helper told me about getting involved in protection work from this end. I'ved taken heed to that advice and am all the happier for it. lol



Andy.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Jerry Lyda said:


> Just because a dog bites the crotch don't mean he is unsafe. If more decoys would think more about the family jewels and wear a cup, there's no way this bite would be unsafe.


In KNPV it is considered unsafe, also because the leather and jute doesn't protect much in the private area. A french suit has more protection there.
I know of decoys who wear cups, but far more don't.


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## Jerry Lyda

Shame on them.


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