# Zimmerman



## Thomas Barriano

Just saw that the jury found him not guilty. Nice to see they voted the law and the evidence but expect there will be riots because of it :-(


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## susan tuck

Why do you think there will be riots?


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## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> Why do you think there will be riots?


Past history with trials like this where the media slants the news to fit an agenda. IMO you can lay any riots at the feet of NBC and any other media outlet that put out the edited 911 call and used a five year old picture of Trayvon etc.
The prosecution over charged the crime (if there was a crime)
I hope I'm wrong about the riots but the media has been fanning the flames for too long.


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## Joby Becker

I just went to the tiny gas station here.

it comfortably fits about 3 people in the customer area but is always packed with 6-7 people jammed in like sardines, and it has 2 foors so there is always confusion on who is in line where, since there is one register only.

As I was going in one door, 2 young black men were coming in the other door..

As the line progressed a few people I motioned for the guys to go ahead of me, cause I thought that they started coming in first, they told me to go ahead, I said thanks..

I was second in line when the one kid asked the other to grab him an Arizona Iced Tea..While I was at the register, the one guy was grabbing some candy, when his friend told him to grab some Skittles..The guy told him, what are you? fukking crazy.... you already got the damn iced tea, now you want the skittles too? 

They both started laughing at that, and the guy grabbed something else for his friend..

I did not want to laugh, but I couldnt help myself the way those kids were laughing about it...

I told them I was sorry I couldn't help but to laugh, the one guy said it was fine that it was pretty damn funny. I agreed with him and started out the door.

His friend in the back held the door for me, and told me to have a nice evening.

The couple of other people in the gas station must have thought it was odd or something, as they looked like they did not see any humor in it...

I am just glad that he said it and not me, cause I almost opened my big mouth and said something similar to the guy.

seemed fine in the gas station...

I didn't hear any chants of No Justice, No Peace....like I did on the TV...

Thomas you are not joking HLN has been not only fanning the flames they have been pouring gasoline all over them...

Dr. Drew should be taken off the air in my opinion.


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## Christopher Smith

susan tuck said:


> Why do you think there will be riots?


Because when a person's voice can't be heard they sometimes scream.


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## Kevin Cyr

Christopher Smith said:


> Because when a person's voice can't be heard they sometimes scream.


:-k:-#


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## Meg O'Donovan

Joby Becker said:


> I just went to the tiny gas station here.
> 
> it comfortably fits about 3 people in the customer area but is always packed with 6-7 people jammed in like sardines, and it has 2 foors so there is always confusion on who is in line where, since there is one register only.
> 
> As I was going in one door, 2 young black men were coming in the other door..
> 
> As the line progressed a few people I motioned for the guys to go ahead of me, cause I thought that they started coming in first, they told me to go ahead, I said thanks..
> 
> I was second in line when the one kid asked the other to grab him an Arizona Iced Tea..While I was at the register, the one guy was grabbing some candy, when his friend told him to grab some Skittles..The guy told him, what are you? fukking crazy.... you already got the damn iced tea, now you want the skittles too?
> 
> They both started laughing at that, and the guy grabbed something else for his friend..
> 
> I did not want to laugh, but I couldnt help myself the way those kids were laughing about it...
> 
> I told them I was sorry I couldn't help but to laugh, the one guy said it was fine that it was pretty damn funny. I agreed with him and started out the door.
> 
> His friend in the back held the door for me, and told me to have a nice evening.


When I read Joby's story above, for some reason it made me think of this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H0coPhlpy4

I hope it's a quiet night, and that everyone succeeds in keeping peace.


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## susan tuck

Joby Becker said:


> I just went to the tiny gas station here.
> 
> it comfortably fits about 3 people in the customer area but is always packed with 6-7 people jammed in like sardines, and it has 2 foors so there is always confusion on who is in line where, since there is one register only.
> 
> As I was going in one door, 2 young black men were coming in the other door..
> 
> As the line progressed a few people I motioned for the guys to go ahead of me, cause I thought that they started coming in first, they told me to go ahead, I said thanks..
> 
> I was second in line when the one kid asked the other to grab him an Arizona Iced Tea..While I was at the register, the one guy was grabbing some candy, when his friend told him to grab some Skittles..The guy told him, what are you? fukking crazy.... you already got the damn iced tea, now you want the skittles too?
> 
> They both started laughing at that, and the guy grabbed something else for his friend..
> 
> I did not want to laugh, but I couldnt help myself the way those kids were laughing about it...
> 
> I told them I was sorry I couldn't help but to laugh, the one guy said it was fine that it was pretty damn funny. I agreed with him and started out the door.
> 
> His friend in the back held the door for me, and told me to have a nice evening.
> 
> The couple of other people in the gas station must have thought it was odd or something, as they looked like they did not see any humor in it...
> 
> I am just glad that he said it and not me, cause I almost opened my big mouth and said something similar to the guy.
> 
> seemed fine in the gas station...
> 
> I didn't hear any chants of No Justice, No Peace....like I did on the TV...
> 
> Thomas you are not joking HLN has been not only fanning the flames they have been pouring gasoline all over them...
> 
> Dr. Drew should be taken off the air in my opinion.


I don't get it. What's your point?


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## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> I don't get it. What's your point?


the point was that all was well, so far in my travels and experiences, not much beyond that...

those 2 young black guys told a joke to themselves, in a funny way, not a fake funny way full of underlying malice, and me, a white dude with a shaved head laughed at it, and no one was pissed off about anything, and I think those guys were funny and genuinely nice individuals that were not looking to make trouble, or even over react in that situation, which could have went a little differently depending on who was invovled..and it was far different than what I was seeing on the TV when I left to go there, which was people chanting "No Justice, No Peace" and a bunch of media people trying to inflame.

One would hope there is no riots or too many violent incidents, but there will be some I am sure, there already has been.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Too bad Marissa Alexander did not have the same legal team.

Apparently in FL if you shoot a warning shot in your own home out of fear of a husband against whom you had a restraining order and you were in fear of your life you get to go to prison for 20 years but if you provoke a teenage kid into fighting you then kill him you walk free.


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## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Too bad Marissa Alexander did not have the same legal team.
> 
> Apparently in FL if you shoot a warning shot in your own home out of fear of a husband against whom you had a restraining order and you were in fear of your life you get to go to prison for 20 years but if you provoke a teenage kid into fighting you then kill him you walk free.


what is provoking someone to fight? 

That is pretty variable for sure, but as far as the law goes, I think there is a standard on what constitutes being legally allowed to punch and fight someone, especially if they are not a willing participant in said fight.

I have been in a few fights and seen many more, I have a ex-friend that I watched throw a guy through a window at a bar for bumping into him. I saw that same guy insult people on purpose or give them the "eye" hoping to instigate them into fighting him amny times, and finally stopped hanging out with him, when he accused me of "not having his back" when he got beat down by a group of dudes, when he was waht I would call the "instigator". He liked to fight...I don't.

I pulled that guy out of more than a couple fights, because I thought he was gonna kill someone, the last time was in a parking lot, when he was mounted on a guy, punching his face, and that guys head sure was bouncing off of the pavement. 

It is easy for people to talk about what should have happened, that was a tragedy for sure, but I am guessing that if either party did things a little differently, that would not have happened that way.

I saw a 17 yr old real skinny dude beat the crap out of large muscular dude in his mid-20's and knock him unconscious when the guy made a crack about him cheating at cards. 


People are like dogs in a way I guess. Some things would cause a fight to occur with some people, that may not cause a fight to occur with others. Different people are more "social" as well, and have different "thresholds" for fear or what consitutes reacting with violence, and there are also differences in strenghts of response, if the decision is made to engage. 

SOme people get scared much easier than others as well, regardless of how it happened initially, I dont think you or anyone else is saying that being on the ground and having your head hitting the concrete while someone on top of you is something that will not cause some major concerns of being seriously hurt or killed.

It was a tragedy for sure, The problem was that the evidence was not there to support the charges, and this case was more about emotions and politics than the laws themselves. 

I watched the special prosecutor tell everyone that she charged Murder 2 because she was certain there was enough evidence to get Murder 2, and thought they had a strong case, they had NO case for murder 2, they did have a much better case for Negligent Homocide in this case, but I highly doubt that would have satified people to find him guilty of such a low charge, so they went for the bigger charges, even though they had no evidence to support it, other that trying to convince people that Zimmerman was frothing at the mouth wanting to kill someone. 

That is a huge issue, in many ways, the overcharging of people.

Sure his actions set things in motion, like I said, if he just went to Target, or stayed home, this obviously would not have happened at all.

Society has a fickle balance at best. There have been lots of changes over the years. Changes in respect given to others, race considerations aside, people just dont have a lot of general respect for others as much as they used to.

This is clearly evident to me, even in dealing with some 10-12 yr old kids on my block, as well as the adults. 

I was a teenager once too, I got stopped and confronted by quite a few strange adults for various things, I did not get into fights though either on those occasions.

Nobody knows exxactly how this went down, except GZ, that is the truth. And yes it was a tragedy, and yes he was at fault. If they would have charged him appropriately for the case that they had, he probably would have been found guilty in my opinion.

Sadly this case became a race issue.

There are things that happen everyday that are comparable or worse. Tragic things happen, our legal system is not perfect, nor are the laws, or our society.

I could site 100's of cases that no one ever heard of that are just as tragic, ending in loss of life. 

And many others that were travesties of justice that resulted in people of all races getting convicted on weak cases as well.

That is what happens when people all try to live together, people get killed sometimes, some people get away with it, others dont, some are justified some are not, like it or not, that is the truth. 

I was a big supporter of the West Memphis Three, who finally got freed for prison for a murder they did not commit. 

People escape prosecution all the time, get away with stuff, and others get incarcerated or executed when they are not guilty of the crimes they were found guilty of.

Each case is an individual proceeding with lots of variables. And yes there are some really messed up laws that get put into place, especially concerning guns.

IF manslaughter was the charge and he was convicted he faced 30 yrs for the gun enhancement with I think a minimum of 25 yrs, although they kept saying 10 years so I could be wrong, if he used knife or a club or something, it would have been 15 yrs max. The average sentence for manslaughter in the US is a little over 5 years.

Our legal system nor our society is perfect, we all know this.


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## Skip Morgart

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Too bad Marissa Alexander did not have the same legal team.
> 
> Apparently in FL if you shoot a warning shot in your own home out of fear of a husband against whom you had a restraining order and you were in fear of your life you get to go to prison for 20 years but if you provoke a teenage kid into fighting you then kill him you walk free.



I was curious, so I read some of the details of the case. The woman went to HIS house where HE lived without her...and fired the shots there. BIG difference. Read the details if you are interested. She was in the wrong.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Skip Morgart said:


> I was curious, so I read some of the details of the case. The woman went to HIS house where HE lived without her...and fired the shots there. BIG difference. Read the details if you are interested. She was in the wrong.


She had left and went to THEIR former house to retrieve some of HER clothes thinking he was not there. Bad judgement. Kind of like the bad judgement Zimmerman had for ignoring the police direction to stay in his car. 

She did not kill or even injury anyone.


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## Skip Morgart

Nancy Jocoy said:


> She had left and went to THEIR former house to retrieve some of HER clothes thinking he was not there. Bad judgement. Kind of like the bad judgement Zimmerman had for ignoring the police direction to stay in his car.
> 
> She did not kill or even injury anyone.


We can go back and forth, but her story sounds mighty fishy. There was a protection order, so SHE shouldn't have went to his house. Send somebody over there to get "her clothes". If she was in fear, she should not have went to his house, or at least without the authorities to accompany her. I don't buy her story, and it seems like the judge didn't either.


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## James Downey

Anyone want to go around tonight and confront people who we think look like criminals? They don't have to be actual criminals....Just look like what we think a criminal looks like. I have already been told by authorities to not do this. But **** them. I will anyway. Bring your gun. Because people seem to get really irritated when you stop them and confront them. And just in case they feel threatened by what we are doing and start getting hostile. We'll just shoot em'.... It's completely legal here in America to do this. To infringe upon innocent peoples rights. Then when they express their right to stand their ground....you shoot em'. That' way they don't have a voice and you walk.... Self defense. Completely legit.


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## tracey schneider

In


Skip Morgart said:


> We can go back and forth, but her story sounds mighty fishy. There was a protection order, so SHE shouldn't have went to his house. Send somebody over there to get "her clothes". If she was in fear, she should not have went to his house, or at least without the authorities to accompany her. I don't buy her story, and it seems like the judge didn't either.



I've seen a few comparisons on this but again leaking what they want you to hear.... 911 calls are here.... I can't see the comparison... She grabbed the gun, they began to run (father and son) she shot. Not the same. Unfortunately our state has mm which basically means we don't trust our judges to sentence case by case, no grey. 

http://m.jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-05-16/story/marissa-alexanders-husband-says-it-was-her-violent-nature-led-shooting


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## Terrasita Cuffie

James Downey said:


> Anyone want to go around tonight and confront people who we think look like criminals? They don't have to be actual criminals....Just look like what we think a criminal looks like. I have already been told by authorities to not do this. But **** them. I will anyway. Bring your gun. Because people seem to get really irritated when you stop them and confront them. And just in case they feel threatened by what we are doing and start getting hostile. We'll just shoot em'.... It's completely legal here in America to do this. To infringe upon innocent peoples rights. Then when they express their right to stand their ground....you shoot em'. That' way they don't have a voice and you walk.... Self defense. Completely legit.


That's about the size of it. The only true witness will be dead and you'll get off on circumstantial evidence and reasonable doubt. And as long as you're white and can meet up two black guys in a gas station and joke about it, all is right in the world because you don't care and they don't either. 

T


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## Laura Bollschweiler

I admit I haven't followed this story too closely. But I get the gist. And situations like these always make me think of these questions:

What country in the world has a better judicial system than USA's?
What would make ours better?
What have you done to change it?
When you got called for jury duty, did you try to get out of it, or did you serve? 

Just curious. 

Laura


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I don't really see it as a system issue. I see what is being discussed outside the system as a reflection of what others value and what motivates them. Its all about fear of who and fear of what and that will be the deciding the factor.

T


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## Nancy Jocoy

I went the first time I was called for jury duty but was dismissed for an honest viewpoint I had. I went the second time but they did not need any of us as they settled out of court and cancelled.

I would say we have an excellent judicial system as it is envisioned, but in practice...well...maybe I am jaded at what I have seen over the years. Justice truly seems to escape the poor or the disenfranchised. 

What have I done to change it? My efforts have been at changing the laws, i.e., through hounding my elected officials. 

Once I retire you can bet the state is going to be housing me some in jail as I will carry on the protests that are hard for parents of young children and folks with jobs to do. Civil Disobedience has a long history in our country. 

I am relatively uneducated about the judicial systems of other countries. I do know that we have about 5% of the world's population and about 25% of the inmate population. People serve decades for offenses that are not even punished (and in some cases not even considered crimes) elsewhere and walk free for murder.


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## Thomas Barriano

The media exaggerated the story by editing the 911 Tape and using inaccurate photographs. Once the profession race baiters got involved, the story went down hill. The jury reached the right decision based on the charges and reasonable doubt.

Why didn't the murder of another 17 year old young black male get the same media attention?
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/07/14/17-year-old-Darryl-Green

Darryl Green gets murdered by gang bangers in Obamas home turf and the national media ignores it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

The media, the media, the media. As if no one can think outside what the media said or does. I don't watch the media and believe wholeheartedly in freedom of the press. I haven't seen any pictures and until these threads didn't know that GZ was Hispanic. He could have been Jewish for all I know or care or Black. Regardless, what regard did he have for the person involved. It was the fact that that the 911 tape utterances reflected motive that caused the outrage. Its simple, the only witness as to what took place between them is dead. Everything else you have is what came out the alive but ooohhhhh so dehumanized George Zimmerman's mouth. The dehumanized individual in all of this is 6 feet under with a grieving family. The victim was a kid but I don't care if he was a 35 year old super stud he has the right to walk the street undisturbed--freedom of assembly. And whether there was a robbery last week, he had a hoodie on, he was a big black buck and ooohhhhh it was raining and dark, shouldn't justify someone thinking they have the right to interfere with his personal space or movement. 

I love the ra ra George Zimmerman threads but when Patrick posts about LE and dogs, which is at least relevant to the Board, you get all of this ohhhh lets stick to dogs and training and don't post that crap here type sentiments. 

I need to call my kid to see what the hell he is up to. Its not raining and its too hot for hoodies. Ya see I raised him with all that land of the free, guilty until proven innocent and the I have a dream vision and it makes him think and believe in equality. I didn't raise him in Joby's vision of fear when accosted or questioned and it may just get him killed. That was how Black women raised their kids for the last couple of hundred years and everybody wonders why you have entire generations of people who don't believe they can be anything but inferior.

T


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## Lee H Sternberg

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The media, the media, the media. As if no one can think outside what the media said or does. I don't watch the media and believe wholeheartedly in freedom of the press. I haven't seen any pictures and until these threads didn't know that GZ was Hispanic. He could have been Jewish for all I know or care or Black. Regardless, what regard did he have for the person involved. It was the fact that that the 911 tape utterances reflected motive that caused the outrage. Its simple, the only witness as to what took place between them is dead. Everything else you have is what came out the alive but ooohhhhh so dehumanized George Zimmerman's mouth. The dehumanized individual in all of this is 6 feet under with a grieving family. The victim was a kid but I don't care if he was a 35 year old super stud he has the right to walk the street undisturbed--freedom of assembly. And whether there was a robbery last week, he had a hoodie on, he was a big black buck and ooohhhhh it was raining and dark, shouldn't justify someone thinking they have the right to interfere with his personal space or movement.
> 
> I love the ra ra George Zimmerman threads but when Patrick posts about LE and dogs, which is at least relevant to the Board, you get all of this ohhhh lets stick to dogs and training and don't post that crap here type sentiments.
> 
> I need to call my kid to see what the hell he is up to. Its not raining and its too hot for hoodies. Ya see I raised him with all that land of the free, guilty until proven innocent and the I have a dream vision and it makes him think and believe in equality. I didn't raise him in Joby's vision of fear when accosted or questioned and it may just get him killed. That was how Black women raised their kids for the last couple of hundred years and everybody wonders why you have entire generations of people who don't believe they can be anything but inferior.
> 
> T


I get a kick out of this silly thread. For someone who didn't know if Zimmerman was Jewish or not and allegedly never followed the case, you have all this opinionated BS.

Three lengthy paragraphs of nonsense.](*,)


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I get a kick out of this silly thread. For someone who didn't know if Zimmerman was Jewish or not and allegedly never followed the case, you have all this opinionated BS.
> 
> Three lengthy paragraphs of nonsense.](*,)


Another fear biter. If you can't do it with guns, then sick the dogs on them. And when that isn't going on, there's always what's the drink of the day. 

T


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Nancy, that is excellent. I get tired of seeing on FB people posting about getting the "dreaded" jury duty notice and how they're going to get out of it and now these same people are complaining about our judicial system. 

You're one of the few that will speak up instead of sitting back and complaining!! 
I appreciate that. 

Laura
PS I would have quoted what you said but it's too hard on my phone.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I get a kick out of this silly thread. For someone who didn't know if Zimmerman was Jewish or not and allegedly never followed the case, you have all this opinionated BS.
> 
> Three lengthy paragraphs of nonsense.](*,)


+ infinity x infinity


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## Lee H Sternberg

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Another fear biter. If you can't do it with guns, then sick the dogs on them. And when that isn't going on, there's always what's the drink of the day.
> 
> T


Hey T. After that hysterical post try calming yourself with a COCO LOCO.\\/


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey T. After that hysterical post try calming yourself with a COCO LOCO.\\/


Naahhhhh, that and a gun or bad ass dog is what I think the fearful rely on. Hysteria is when you are having nightmares about darkness, rain, males in hoodies and having a chance to turn that nightmare into a dream and wake up a free George Zimmerman. 

T


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## Lee H Sternberg

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Naahhhhh, that and a gun or bad ass dog is what I think the fearful rely on. Hysteria is when you are having nightmares about darkness, rain, males in hoodies and having a chance to turn that nightmare into a dream and wake up a free George Zimmerman.
> 
> T


Hey T, L here again. You had that second post wrong! 

For me it's the bad ass dog first. If that doesn't do the trick then the artillery. Third comes the COCO LOCO celebration.


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The media, the media, the media. As if no one can think outside what the media said or does. I don't watch the media and believe wholeheartedly in freedom of the press. I haven't seen any pictures and until these threads didn't know that GZ was Hispanic. He could have been Jewish for all I know or care or Black. Regardless, what regard did he have for the person involved. It was the fact that that the 911 tape utterances reflected motive that caused the outrage. Its simple, the only witness as to what took place between them is dead. Everything else you have is what came out the alive but ooohhhhh so dehumanized George Zimmerman's mouth. The dehumanized individual in all of this is 6 feet under with a grieving family. The victim was a kid but I don't care if he was a 35 year old super stud he has the right to walk the street undisturbed--freedom of assembly. And whether there was a robbery last week, he had a hoodie on, he was a big black buck and ooohhhhh it was raining and dark, shouldn't justify someone thinking they have the right to interfere with his personal space or movement.
> 
> I love the ra ra George Zimmerman threads but when Patrick posts about LE and dogs, which is at least relevant to the Board, you get all of this ohhhh lets stick to dogs and training and don't post that crap here type sentiments.
> 
> I need to call my kid to see what the hell he is up to. Its not raining and its too hot for hoodies. *Ya see I raised him with all that land of the free, guilty until proven innocent and the I have a dream vision and it makes him think and believe in equality. I didn't raise him in Joby's vision of fear when accosted or questioned and it may just get him killed*. That was how Black women raised their kids for the last couple of hundred years and everybody wonders why you have entire generations of people who don't believe they can be anything but inferior.
> 
> T


T. you are something else, no one is RAH RAH RAH for George Zimmerman.

People are not happy about this situation as a whole, the plain truth is that the prosecution over charged the case, and did not get a conviction. 

I am not suprised by this at all, as legally there was not enough evidence to convict him on the charges that the prosecution pushed. If he got convicted, I would be amazed as they did not prove their case. Florida has some pretty strong laws concerning this case.

I would love for you to tell me what you think my vision of fear is...
I dont understand what you are saying by this???? This I think needs some explanation.


Why would you raise yuor kid to think you are guilty until proven innocent? That does not make sense.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> Why would you raise yuor kid to think you are guilty until proven innocent? That does not make sense.


Boy that was a Freudian switch--good catch but a reality of what I see play out time and time again in reading what people have written about this case and how they see life, generally. Ironic how George Zimmerman gets the benefit of the governing principle of our legal system but it didn't occur to him to afford Treyvon Martin the same. 

As for fear, read your own posts.

T


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## susan tuck

I would hope the one good thing that will come of this is Neighborhood Watch Organizations will provide better training on how to be "eyes and ears", this tragedy will serve as an example of what NOT to do, hopefully no volunteer will ever cross the line that George Zimmerman crossed.


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## Nancy Jocoy

My concern is more along the lines of a ton of nervous nellies and control wannabees and vigilante justice. What ever happened to the concept of removing yourself from a dicey situation and calling the authorities? Sure if someone is being attacked-that is different but.........

Yeah, I hate the booming music and understand this next guys frustration but to kill because he "thought" he may have seen a gun (there was no gun)? There were a bunch of witnesses on this one. I hope justice is served.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/04/17/jordan-davis-parents-dunn-trayvon

When I was in graduate school, I became friends with a black man in the same program. We were both married with families about the same age. Of racism, he said the thing that hurt the most was that people were scared of him and would even cross the street to avoid him and not make eye contact, even though he behaved in a culturally white way.....without the mannerisms and demeanor often associated with black people (which should not matter anyway)....

Just being scared of a stranger is enough justification in "stand your ground" to shoot and kill and anybody can get a gun......


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## David Ruby

Christopher Smith said:


> Because when a person's voice can't be heard they sometimes scream.


Christopher, when have riots actually helped matters in contemporary times? Mob violence and vigilante justice are not the answers for a better justice system.

If you really want to make a difference, fight to change the laws. As-written on the books, Zimmerman broke no law if the situation went down like he said. _If_ it went down as he said, whether you thought he was justified or not in tailing Trayvon Martin it was still not illegal. Again, _if_ it went down as Zimmerman said, Trayvon escalated it from chasing/harassing to a fight. Once Zimmerman is in fear for his life in a fight he allegedly did not start, it becomes a case of self-defense. That is how the laws are set up.

Everything was on Martin's side until/unless he turned it into a fight using deadly force. If you disagree with me, fine. However, he was tried and acquitted by a jury of his peers. I would like to think that holds some weight. We are a nation of innocent until proven guilty. Not innocent unless public opinion and outrage make rioting and vigilante justice o.k.

Rioting or some vigilante-killing of Zimmerman (which has also been discussed on the Internet) will not bring back Trayvon Martin. We will end up with more Reginald Denny's, greater racial divides, and more of these "revenge beatings."

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/20...-revenge-beating-in-chicago-alton-l-hayes-ii/
http://the-american-journal.com/78-year-old-victim-trayvon-martin-revenge-attack/

That sort of action seems like a slippery slope on a number of levels. Especially since these riots are going to be against people who have nothing to do with this case.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby

James Downey said:


> Anyone want to go around tonight and confront people who we think look like criminals? They don't have to be actual criminals....Just look like what we think a criminal looks like. I have already been told by authorities to not do this. But **** them. I will anyway. Bring your gun. Because people seem to get really irritated when you stop them and confront them. And just in case they feel threatened by what we are doing and start getting hostile. We'll just shoot em'.... It's completely legal here in America to do this. To infringe upon innocent peoples rights. Then when they express their right to stand their ground....you shoot em'. That' way they don't have a voice and you walk.... Self defense. Completely legit.


It was ruled self-defense because Martin escalated it from a foot chase to assault with deadly force. Following somebody is not a crime. Attacking somebody for following you is. Attacking somebody with deadly force is grounds for self-defense. Following somebody does not forfeit your right to self-defense if it comes to that. That is how the laws are set up.

Why are we not taking a look at the laws and acceptable practice in these situations instead of jumping to riots as an acceptable solution? We cannot retroactively convict Zimmerman or anybody else for breaking laws that do not exist. Nor should we disregard a jury-rendered decision.

I believe that Zimmerman was outside his role in chasing Martin. I also believe it was wrong for Martin to assault Zimmerman for chasing him to the point of breaking his nose and smashing his head into the ground, repeatedly. There were things either side could have, and should have, done differently. What I am most interested in at this point is what can we do better. I do not feel particularly _good_ about all this, despite believing Zimmerman innocent of murder. I would not have felt good regardless of the verdict to be honest. However, I think rioting is not the answer. Working to see what is flawed in the system and fixing that seems more constructive.

-Cheers


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## Nancy Jocoy

Honestly, had Martin had a weapon (ooops he was a kid, guess that would be illegal!) and killed Zimmerman he could have claimed self defense / stand your ground. 

Good lesson there, eh?


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## David Ruby

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Honestly, had Martin had a weapon (ooops he was a kid, guess that would be illegal!) and killed Zimmerman he could have claimed self defense / stand your ground.
> 
> Good lesson there, eh?


True. However, he would have had to have been in fear for his life. That gets sticky if Zimmerman is just running after him, as opposed to actually attacking him. You still have to defend your use of force. Stand Your Ground means you do not have to retreat, not that you can carte blanche shoot anybody for chasing you or scaring you. For self-defense, you have to actually be in fear of great bodily harm, and prove it to a jury if it gets to that stage.

But yes, potentially, had Martin been an adult and lawfully armed and Zimmerman had made him legitimately in fear of his own life or of great bodily harm, Zimmerman could have lawfully been shot dead.

I do _not_ think Florida law (or any SYG law) is meant to make it easier to justify killing people by not standing down and shooting them so you can claim self-defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

I do think you need to be careful, and culturally we should focus on de-escalating things so they do not get to that point. That is where I think, even if it was completely legal, chasing down somebody puts them in a defensive mindset and is going to just heighten things to potentially dangerous levels. As Susan said, hopefully this leads to changes not just in neighborhood watch, but legally, or in how we think of our interactions with people in general whenever possible. Not that it will work miracles and make us all just get along, however I think there ARE things that can be changed to make things better.

-Cheers


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## Hunter Allred

Joby Becker said:


> People are like dogs in a way I guess. Some things would cause a fight to occur with some people, that may not cause a fight to occur with others. Different people are more "social" as well, and have different "thresholds" for fear or what consitutes reacting with violence, and there are also differences in strenghts of response, if the decision is made to engage.


I find that when I'm trying to get a "read" on a person, its always now the same sort of way and using the same terminology that I would for a dog... there are people who are very sharp, strong/weak nerved, low/high threshold, socially aggressive, hard/soft to the people they are strongly bonded with ("handler") etc... nothing in characterizing how a dog reacts to environmental experiences doesn't apply to people as well. The evolutionary process that made dogs, chimps, rats, and deer behave the way they do also created us... we just *think* we have free will and are the civilized species among beasts lol


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## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Federal Charges?*

http://www.mail.com/news/politics/2...eviews-zimmerman-case.html#.2718-stage-set1-3

IMO There has been way too much interference from outsider racial baiters and agitators (Sharpton, Jackson etc.) and the Obama White house. If the Martin family wants to file a civil court
case for wrongful death that that is their right. I am tired of seeing the case being used for political purposes.


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## Sarah Platts

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Honestly, had Martin had a weapon (ooops he was a kid, guess that would be illegal!) and killed Zimmerman he could have claimed self defense / stand your ground.





Nancy Jocoy said:


>






David Ruby said:


> But yes, potentially, had Martin been an adult and lawfully armed and Zimmerman had made him legitimately in fear of his own life or of great bodily harm, Zimmerman could have lawfully been shot dead.




Anything can be a weapon. And anyone of any age can have a weapon. Whether its guns, knives, baseball bats or a fist, all it takes is opportunity, capability, and intent. The legality of it is a social contruct.


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## Edward Weiss

Much of the debate of the outcome of this trial revolves around motivation and the immediate circumstances of the encounter which turned violent and deadly.Few facts are available aside from the autopsy report and documented medical wounds. Some background below offers context if not a definitive answer.


The Retreat at Twin Lakes is a 260-unit gated townhome community in Sanford, Florida.[79][80] The population in the development at the time of the shooting, was about 49% non-Hispanic white, 23% Hispanic (of any race), 20% black, and 5% Asian, according to Census figures.[67] Both George Zimmerman and Tracy Martin's fiancee were renting homes in the development when the shooting occurred.[45] At the time of the shooting, Martin had been staying with his father's fiancee at The Retreat.[11]
From January 1, 2011 through February 26, 2012, police were called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times.[67] During the 18 months preceding the February 26 shooting, Zimmerman called the non-emergency police line seven times. On five of those calls, Zimmerman reported suspicious looking men in the area, but never offered the men's race without first being asked by the dispatcher.[81][82][83] Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting.[84] Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood.[2]
In September 2011, the Twin Lakes residents held an organizational meeting to create a neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman was selected by neighbors as the program's coordinator, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department.[5][5][85]
Three weeks prior to the shooting, on February 2, 2012, Zimmerman called police to report a young man peering into the windows of an empty Twin Lakes home. Zimmerman was told a police car was on the way and he waited for their arrival. By the time police arrived, the suspect had fled. On February 6, workers witnessed two young black men lingering in the yard of a Twin Lakes resident around the same time her home was burglarized. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. The next day police discovered the stolen laptop in the backpack of a young black man, which led to his arrest. Zimmerman identified this young man as the same person he had spotted peering into windows on February 2.[2]


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## susan tuck

In my opinion, states that have "stand your ground" type of laws, should also require more in the way of training, than a certificate from a standard hunter safety course in order to obtain a concealed weapons permit. I also think those civilians who are licensed to carry a concealed weapon should be held to the same standards as a police officer when it comes to justified or unjustified shootings.


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## jamie lind

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Honestly, had Martin had a weapon (ooops he was a kid, guess that would be illegal!) and killed Zimmerman he could have claimed self defense / stand your ground.
> 
> Good lesson there, eh?


I read a story from florida of a convicted felon shooting a guy and successfully used stand your ground as a defense. So even though he was in possesion of an illegal firearm. He still was able to use it as a defense. I would think he would still be guilty of the firearms charge though.


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## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> My concern is more along the lines of a ton of nervous nellies and control wannabees and vigilante justice. What ever happened to the concept of removing yourself from a dicey situation and calling the authorities? Sure if someone is being attacked-that is different but.........
> 
> Yeah, I hate the booming music and understand this next guys frustration but to kill because he "thought" he may have seen a gun (there was no gun)? There were a bunch of witnesses on this one. I hope justice is served.
> 
> http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/04/17/jordan-davis-parents-dunn-trayvon
> 
> When I was in graduate school, I became friends with a black man in the same program. We were both married with families about the same age. Of racism, he said the thing that hurt the most was that people were scared of him and would even cross the street to avoid him and not make eye contact, even though he behaved in a culturally white way.....without the mannerisms and demeanor often associated with black people (which should not matter anyway)....
> 
> Just being scared of a stranger is enough justification in "stand your ground" to shoot and kill and anybody can get a gun......


So you had one friend that was black who said that it hurt the most that some people appeared to be scared of him, that you befriended in graduate school? and?

When I was 7, living in suburb of Chicago, I lived in an all white neighborhood. A black family moved in next door. The kid immediately became one of my closest friends.

As we grew up, maybe a dozen black families loved into the neighborhood by the time we entered highschool. While I cannot speak to others feelings, everyone I know accepted and befriended them. And no one that I know of seemed to be scared of the people, and there were never any incidents that I am aware of. My mom was on the schoolboard and we often had people over, including two of the black women that were also on the school board, when there were literally only 4-5 black students in my elemantary school.

When I was in highschool, I became a lifeguard at a public pool in a pretty much all black neighborhood in nearby city, which I did for 5 years.

I also started to teach swimming lessons for about 15 years on and off, almost exclusively for black children and adults. Because I was astounded how many black people could not swim, and to me being able to swim is a necessity of life, not optional, as people drown all the time from not being able to swim.

When I was 20 one of my very best friends was black, that is about the time I got into dogs pretty heavily, and started doing some training. More people involved in training with me were black than any other race. 

For many years I lived in very bad areas in my life (high crime areas, low income areas), if you will, and got know many many black people on a very personal level. 

I worked a lot of dog shows promoted by black people that I knew, and attended more than 1 event where me and the person I came with were the only white people there. And many others where the ratio of attendees was probably less than 5% white.

I also 4 times ran dog training classes at local park districts in black neighborhoods, mostly with children attending. It was done at very low cost, and one time I actually went out and found people to come, so I could run the class, and paid out of my own pocket to cover the cost that was needed, when the class was going to get bumped for low attendance.

I worked on at least 20 houses, volunteering for habitat for humanity, most of which were for black families.

Hell I even pushed a car off of the road by myself, when an older black lady decided to leave it parked in a traffic lane, on a 50 miles an hour street, with herself and 5 children in the car. Yes I pushed it by myself, no one got out of the car to help either, the mother told the 2 teenage boys to stay in the car. I did it because although that woman did not see any threat in sitting in a car on that road, I saw massive potential for a collision. That woman did not even thank me either, not that I needed to be thanked.

As an adult, a high percentage of my acquaintances and friends have been black. 50% I would guess. When things were slow at the trophy shop I worked (me and another white guy) at for 4 years, many times people would hang out and chat. Mostly Black guys that I gave real good deals too, for their football teams and basketball teams. Because many of those teams, the parents would not pay what they were supposed to, and the coaches often had to spend their own money to fund the teams in various ways, including the awards. In some cases we just sponsored the awards, because what they could afford to buy, was very weak and sad.

Currently I would say I have 5 real close friends, and 2 of them are black.

I personally have only had 1 bad relationship in real life with a black person, a guy involved with dog training, that had a problem with my use of the word Ghetto, that I used to describe his less than desirable activites. 

Although I am not a black person and do not presume to imply that I know what it is like to be a black person in America today, I have spent literally 1000's and 1000's of hours talking to 100's and 100's of black people in my life.

I found a dead black teenager in the alley behind my house, and had a double murder at the house across the street from me once.

I can say this, in all my life I have encountered many people of all races, and racists in all races, as well as people with irrational fear, or prejudice.

And throughout most of my life, most of those people that were racists were black. Most of the people saying prejudical things have been black.

I have talked for many many hours about these issues with many many black people, and have also talked to a few black people about this Zimmerman affair at length.

Nancy, you can feel sad about the fact that your friend was sad that people were scared of him, but almost all of the black people I have encountered see much more serious problems within the black communities, generational welfare cycles,broken family units, lack of respect for one another, lack of respect for people and life in general, violence, racism by blacks and hatred of whites and each other as well. Yes there are many people that are black that harbor outright hatred, as well as many that live in fear of their own people. The black on black crime is one of the biggest problems today. The culture that tells a black person not to help solve the double murder of their own family members, for fear of getting murdered themselves, or looked at as a "snitch" is really really messed up, as is the notion of "sticking together" to hinder other investigations of serious crimes, by not co-operating the police. Almost all of the black people I talk to as well, see a huge issue with the prominant black leadership who seem to constantly promote the racial divide.

This is not only my opinion, all these very serious concerns, I came to look at these things by learning about them as I have been involved in the black community.

I am not saying I am angel or a black man in white skin, or there are not major problems on all sides, socially, politically, whatever else, but all I can say is that as a 42 yr old white male, the worst things I have heard about black people, seen done to black people, and tragedies befallen to black families, has been from black people themselves. 

If this offends anyone, just pretend I am black, and then you can agree with me.

What happened to Trayvon was a tragedy, as are 1000's of other things that happen every month in this country.

I have to go now, help donate some time to do some hard labor to help a black guy build a living space, a close friend of mine, who is moving on to another white friend of mine's house, who is paying for almost of the cost of the building the dwelling. 

While we lugging the lumber and working side by side all day, me and Tony, the black dude, working lockstep all day, I assume that we will be discussing the issues of the day, like we always do when we hang out. I will be sure to mention the fact that I just gave a stranded black guy a jumpstart last night at Walmart, in case he thinks I have an issue with black people...  Maybe I will ask him if I should feel guilty for being white...

Terrasita your assumptions about what I think cut me to the bone. They were rude, I cant wait to here your analysis of my "vision of fear" from your ignorant ass.


----------



## David Ruby

susan tuck said:


> In my opinion, states that have "stand your ground" type of laws, should also require more in the way of training, than a certificate from a standard hunter safety course in order to obtain a concealed weapons permit. I also think those civilians who are licensed to carry a concealed weapon should be held to the same standards as a police officer when it comes to justified or unjustified shootings.


To be fair, Zimmerman did not use "Stand Your Ground" for his defense.

I also think Americans in general should have standard firearms training. Good luck getting that passed, but if you shoot or ever might have to handle a gun for whatever reason, it would be nice if you knew what you were doing, how to safely handle, unload, etc. I also think we should be emphasize a more defensive mindset, both in any gun-safety course (which probably include a facet of that anyway), and culturally. I think that may be more of a cultural thing to some extent. It is also on the individual to use what they have learned. It is easy to play the "what-if" game, however I would argue it is USUALLY easy to remove yourself from the situation or play it cool and calm a situation down, with better results than resorting to violence unless it is absolutely unavoidable.

-Cheers


----------



## susan tuck

David Ruby said:


> To be fair, Zimmerman did not use "Stand Your Ground" for his defense.
> 
> I also think Americans in general should have standard firearms training. Good luck getting that passed, but if you shoot or ever might have to handle a gun for whatever reason, it would be nice if you knew what you were doing, how to safely handle, unload, etc. I also think we should be emphasize a more defensive mindset, both in any gun-safety course (which probably include a facet of that anyway), and culturally. I think that may be more of a cultural thing to some extent. It is also on the individual to use what they have learned. It is easy to play the "what-if" game, however I would argue it is USUALLY easy to remove yourself from the situation or play it cool and calm a situation down, with better results than resorting to violence unless it is absolutely unavoidable.
> 
> -Cheers


I should have just said that in my opinion, any state that issues concealed weapons permits should require more from applicants than a certificate from a hunter safety course.

Here is the Florida application for a concealed weapons permit:
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/FORMS/ConcealedWeaponLicenseApplicationInstructions.pdf

Here is the study guide to a typical Hunter Safety course approved by Florida Fish & Game
http://www.hunter-ed.com/florida/studyGuide/201010

Doesn't have much to do with carrying a gun for defense in an urban setting.

Beyond this, if you take it on the Internet then all you have to do to get your Hunter Safety Certification is 4 hours in the classroom and 3 hours on the range.

The license is good for 7 years, and there is no requirement to prove proficiency beyond that Hunter Safety Course. Even upon renewal in 7 years there is no proficiency requirement.

To my way of thinking, this is not good at all.

I think that those who obtain concealed weapons permits have a grave responsibility to the rest of society, and should be held to the same standards as a police officer when it comes to proficiency and ability to know when and when not to fire that weapon.


----------



## David Ruby

susan tuck said:


> I should have just said that in my opinion, any state that issues concealed weapons permits should require more from applicants than a certificate from a hunter safety course.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Doesn't have much to do with carrying a gun for defense in an urban setting.


True. However, I am not sure how much is readily available for defensive firearms training in an urban setting. For states to require that, such materials need to be available. That is something culturally we would need to change. Not saying that sort of training is a bad idea, however you would need to look at what the training covers and what should be added to supplement it. Maybe it should be a broader firearms training, and renamed to something other than "Hunter Safety." There is probably room for improvement. However, a lot of what you mentioned may be handled in concealed-weapon instruction courses (which I think most anybody who does not already have their hunter safety license already has to take). So it may not be reinventing the wheel so much as modifying what is already in place, in Florida or elsewhere.



> To my way of thinking, this is not good at all.
> 
> I think that those who obtain concealed weapons permits have a grave responsibility to the rest of society, and should be held to the same standards as a police officer when it comes to proficiency and ability to know when and when not to fire that weapon.


The role of police and ccw-carriers are completely different. Police are trained to apprehend. Citizens have the right to bear arms and are generally approved to shoot in self-defense. The standards are not entirely compatible. Not saying I have the answer, however ccw-carriers are never going to be at the same proficiency as somebody who is a professional police officer, and the standards are going to be different based on their roles in society. They should_ not_ be the same for that reason. Besides, there are already laws for what you do with your firearms. All a ccw license does is make it legal for you to have it concealed on your person, as opposed to in your house or secured elsewhere. You will always be responsible for what you do with a firearm, legally speaking, in your home or elsewhere.

-Cheers


----------



## susan tuck

David Ruby said:


> True. However, I am not sure how much is readily available for defensive firearms training in an urban setting. For states to require that, such materials need to be available. That is something culturally we would need to change. Not saying that sort of training is a bad idea, however you would need to look at what the training covers and what should be added to supplement it. Maybe it should be a broader firearms training, and renamed to something other than "Hunter Safety." There is probably room for improvement. However, a lot of what you mentioned may be handled in concealed-weapon instruction courses (which I think most anybody who does not already have their hunter safety license already has to take). So it may not be reinventing the wheel so much as modifying what is already in place, in Florida or elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> The role of police and ccw-carriers are completely different. Police are trained to apprehend. Citizens have the right to bear arms and are generally approved to shoot in self-defense. The standards are not entirely compatible. Not saying I have the answer, however ccw-carriers are never going to be at the same proficiency as somebody who is a professional police officer, and the standards are going to be different based on their roles in society. They should_ not_ be the same for that reason. Besides, there are already laws for what you do with your firearms. All a ccw license does is make it legal for you to have it concealed on your person, as opposed to in your house or secured elsewhere. You will always be responsible for what you do with a firearm, legally speaking, in your home or elsewhere.
> 
> -Cheers


There is no "concealed weapons course" required, that's my point. All you need is a certificate from a hunter safety course, and that's not good enough in my opinion.

As far as the safety of the general public is concerned, if someone chooses to carry a gun around that public, they absolutely should be held accountable when they shoot that gun at someone, just as an officer of the law is held accountable, and they should be held to the same standard.


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## jamie lind

http://www.caintv.com/calm-reigns-black-americans-do


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## Nancy Jocoy

Joby, I was sharing and enlightement about how white people often "fear" black people because they are black.

I have spent most of my life in the south and have known and had as friends several black people, not just this one and my daughter dated a black boy for a good while. I don't claim to "know black"; it is a different culture but I have been to enough black events, black church services, etc. to have an opinion...and know how whites react even to black folks "acting like white folks".

In Fort Mill, SC there was a black neighborhood called Paradise and the white folks told us what a dangerous place it was and how we should not go there and we were crazy for going there. This was around 2005. It was a common sentiment, this fear and I saw it. Don't tell me I did not. We moved freely down there as we were members of the Optimist Club which was 98% black and met in the black church there. 

We moved from Madison GA when our kids were babies because we found out it was so segregated (25 years ago) that they had a black prom and a white prom. I found out recently that around 2011, they finally integrated..and just this year I think the last one "fell".

My grandfather was well liked by the black community in his small town (that was where he got his bathtub gin and liquor) and I had no issue with them. 

Also, coming from Baltimore (early childhood) I knew extreme racial hatred coming from whites. The whole town is rough and violent only when I was a kid it was Italians and Irish folks, then black folks started moving downtown and they became the target of hatred and I remember downtown Baltimore when it was mostly white. Actually, that level of hatred still exists in my cousins up there.

I do believe though that "fear" of black people seems to be a real phenomenon among many whites.

I also have memories probably older than yours of racial segregation race riots, and fear of blacks who have a lot more to fear from whites and each other than we have of them.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Joby, I was sharing and enlightement about how white people often "fear" black people because they are black.
> 
> I have spent most of my life in the south and have known and had as friends several black people, not just this one and my daughter dated a black boy for a good while. I don't claim to "know black"; it is a different culture but I have been to enough black events, black church services, etc. to have an opinion...and know how whites react even to black folks "acting like white folks".
> 
> In Fort Mill, SC there was a black neighborhood called Paradise and the white folks told us what a dangerous place it was and how we should not go there and we were crazy for going there. This was around 2005. It was a common sentiment, this fear and I saw it. Don't tell me I did not. We moved freely down there as we were members of the Optimist Club which was 98% black and met in the black church there.
> 
> We moved from Madison GA when our kids were babies because we found out it was so segregated (25 years ago) that they had a black prom and a white prom. I found out recently that around 2011, they finally integrated..and just this year I think the last one "fell".
> 
> My grandfather was well liked by the black community in his small town (that was where he got his bathtub gin and liquor) and I had no issue with them.
> 
> Also, coming from Baltimore (early childhood) I knew extreme racial hatred coming from whites. The whole town is rough and violent only when I was a kid it was Italians and Irish folks, then black folks started moving downtown and they became the target of hatred and I remember downtown Baltimore when it was mostly white. Actually, that level of hatred still exists in my cousins up there.
> 
> I do believe though that "fear" of black people seems to be a real phenomenon among many whites.
> 
> I also have memories probably older than yours of racial segregation race riots, and fear of blacks who have a lot more to fear from whites and each other than we have of them.


We are all pre-programed to pigeonhole ourselves into ever smaller containers of "we and them"... Country, race, state, hometown, clan, tribe, USC vs Clemson, family, and ultimately "me". I don't think it is possible to remove this natural tendency... its been critical to our survival over the past millennia. We are just animals that learned a few clever tricks... but animals.


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## will fernandez

Zimmerman in my opinion was wrong. But since trayvons death, in savannah alone, forty young black men have been murdered in their neighborhoods. How many thousands have died more senseless deaths than Trayvons across America Why don't the voices rise up for those....


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## Mark Sheplak

will fernandez said:


> But since trayvons death, in savannah alone, forty young black men have been murdered in their neighborhoods. How many thousands have died more senseless deaths than Trayvons across America Why don't the voices rise up for those....


+1


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## Thomas Barriano

jamie lind said:


> http://www.caintv.com/calm-reigns-black-americans-do



Another interesting perspective on who the racists are

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell070913.php3#.UeRS9qxcWxI


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## jamie lind

Thomas Barriano said:


> Another interesting perspective on who the racists are
> 
> http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell070913.php3#.UeRS9qxcWxI


I think this wouldn't have happened if travon sp? was white. That doesn't change the fact that there was no evidence to convict zimmerman. I also don't think this would have happened if zimmerman was black.


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## Thomas Barriano

jamie lind said:


> I think this wouldn't have happened if travon sp? was white. That doesn't change the fact that there was no evidence to convict zimmerman. I also don't think this would have happened if zimmerman was black.


The same incident would have happened but it wouldn't have been reported outside of the local media.


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## jamie lind

Had trayvon killed zimmerman that night I would expect him to be inocent too. In my opinion both of them could have prevented this. A situation like this happened to one of my brothers. He was hunting on another of my brothers property when he was confronted by a neighbor. He explained that he was on my brothers property and difused the situation. I know the guy wouldn't have acted like an ass to him if he was white, because I've run into the same neighbor and he was very polite to me. I have no doubt he acted different to me because I was white. Both of them were armed and it could of ended badly if my brother wasn't the better man and stayed calm.


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## jamie lind

Thomas Barriano said:


> The same incident would have happened but it wouldn't have been reported outside of the local media.


Maybe. Well never know.


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## David Ruby

jamie lind said:


> I think this wouldn't have happened if travon sp? was white. That doesn't change the fact that there was no evidence to convict zimmerman. I also don't think this would have happened if zimmerman was black.


It certainly _could_ have. If it's a white kid in a hoodie who gets chased, then knocks down down the guy from neighborhood watch and starts beating on him, ultimately getting shot if he takes it too far and the guy on the bottom becomes fearful for his life. That is not terribly hard to believe.



jamie lind said:


> Had trayvon killed zimmerman that night I would expect him to be inocent too. In my opinion both of them could have prevented this. A situation like this happened to one of my brothers. He was hunting on another of my brothers property when he was confronted by a neighbor. He explained that he was on my brothers property and difused the situation. I know the guy wouldn't have acted like an ass to him if he was white, because I've run into the same neighbor and he was very polite to me. I have no doubt he acted different to me because I was white. Both of them were armed and it could of ended badly if my brother wasn't the better man and stayed calm.


It all depends how it would have played out. If Zimmerman hadn't shot Martin, Zimmerman could have been seriously injured, with brain damage, or ended up dead, and Martin could have ended up on trial for attempted murder. If eyewitnesses had seen who started the fight or any of the circumstances surrounding the fight, this could have turned out much different as well.

-Cheers


----------



## jamie lind

David Ruby said:


> It certainly _could_ have. If it's a white kid in a hoodie who gets chased, then knocks down down the guy from neighborhood watch and starts beating on him, ultimately getting shot if he takes it too far and the guy on the bottom becomes fearful for his life. That is not terribly hard to believe.
> 
> 
> 
> It all depends how it would have played out. If Zimmerman hadn't shot Martin, Zimmerman could have been seriously injured, with brain damage, or ended up dead, and Martin could have ended up on trial for attempted murder. If eyewitnesses had seen who started the fight or any of the circumstances surrounding the fight, this could have turned out much different as well.
> 
> -Cheers


And if that happened I think martin would have been found innocent. 
If there would have been witnesses there wouldn't be all this speculating. There wasn't any.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> So you had one friend that was black who said that it hurt the most that some people appeared to be scared of him, that you befriended in graduate school? and?
> 
> When I was 7, living in suburb of Chicago, I lived in an all white neighborhood. A black family moved in next door. The kid immediately became one of my closest friends.
> 
> As we grew up, maybe a dozen black families loved into the neighborhood by the time we entered highschool. While I cannot speak to others feelings, everyone I know accepted and befriended them. And no one that I know of seemed to be scared of the people, and there were never any incidents that I am aware of. My mom was on the schoolboard and we often had people over, including two of the black women that were also on the school board, when there were literally only 4-5 black students in my elemantary school.
> 
> When I was in highschool, I became a lifeguard at a public pool in a pretty much all black neighborhood in nearby city, which I did for 5 years.
> 
> I also started to teach swimming lessons for about 15 years on and off, almost exclusively for black children and adults. Because I was astounded how many black people could not swim, and to me being able to swim is a necessity of life, not optional, as people drown all the time from not being able to swim.
> 
> When I was 20 one of my very best friends was black, that is about the time I got into dogs pretty heavily, and started doing some training. More people involved in training with me were black than any other race.
> 
> For many years I lived in very bad areas in my life (high crime areas, low income areas), if you will, and got know many many black people on a very personal level.
> 
> I worked a lot of dog shows promoted by black people that I knew, and attended more than 1 event where me and the person I came with were the only white people there. And many others where the ratio of attendees was probably less than 5% white.
> 
> I also 4 times ran dog training classes at local park districts in black neighborhoods, mostly with children attending. It was done at very low cost, and one time I actually went out and found people to come, so I could run the class, and paid out of my own pocket to cover the cost that was needed, when the class was going to get bumped for low attendance.
> 
> I worked on at least 20 houses, volunteering for habitat for humanity, most of which were for black families.
> 
> Hell I even pushed a car off of the road by myself, when an older black lady decided to leave it parked in a traffic lane, on a 50 miles an hour street, with herself and 5 children in the car. Yes I pushed it by myself, no one got out of the car to help either, the mother told the 2 teenage boys to stay in the car. I did it because although that woman did not see any threat in sitting in a car on that road, I saw massive potential for a collision. That woman did not even thank me either, not that I needed to be thanked.
> 
> As an adult, a high percentage of my acquaintances and friends have been black. 50% I would guess. When things were slow at the trophy shop I worked (me and another white guy) at for 4 years, many times people would hang out and chat. Mostly Black guys that I gave real good deals too, for their football teams and basketball teams. Because many of those teams, the parents would not pay what they were supposed to, and the coaches often had to spend their own money to fund the teams in various ways, including the awards. In some cases we just sponsored the awards, because what they could afford to buy, was very weak and sad.
> 
> Currently I would say I have 5 real close friends, and 2 of them are black.
> 
> I personally have only had 1 bad relationship in real life with a black person, a guy involved with dog training, that had a problem with my use of the word Ghetto, that I used to describe his less than desirable activites.
> 
> Although I am not a black person and do not presume to imply that I know what it is like to be a black person in America today, I have spent literally 1000's and 1000's of hours talking to 100's and 100's of black people in my life.
> 
> I found a dead black teenager in the alley behind my house, and had a double murder at the house across the street from me once.
> 
> I can say this, in all my life I have encountered many people of all races, and racists in all races, as well as people with irrational fear, or prejudice.
> 
> And throughout most of my life, most of those people that were racists were black. Most of the people saying prejudical things have been black.
> 
> I have talked for many many hours about these issues with many many black people, and have also talked to a few black people about this Zimmerman affair at length.
> 
> Nancy, you can feel sad about the fact that your friend was sad that people were scared of him, but almost all of the black people I have encountered see much more serious problems within the black communities, generational welfare cycles,broken family units, lack of respect for one another, lack of respect for people and life in general, violence, racism by blacks and hatred of whites and each other as well. Yes there are many people that are black that harbor outright hatred, as well as many that live in fear of their own people. The black on black crime is one of the biggest problems today. The culture that tells a black person not to help solve the double murder of their own family members, for fear of getting murdered themselves, or looked at as a "snitch" is really really messed up, as is the notion of "sticking together" to hinder other investigations of serious crimes, by not co-operating the police. Almost all of the black people I talk to as well, see a huge issue with the prominant black leadership who seem to constantly promote the racial divide.
> 
> This is not only my opinion, all these very serious concerns, I came to look at these things by learning about them as I have been involved in the black community.
> 
> I am not saying I am angel or a black man in white skin, or there are not major problems on all sides, socially, politically, whatever else, but all I can say is that as a 42 yr old white male, the worst things I have heard about black people, seen done to black people, and tragedies befallen to black families, has been from black people themselves.
> 
> If this offends anyone, just pretend I am black, and then you can agree with me.
> 
> What happened to Trayvon was a tragedy, as are 1000's of other things that happen every month in this country.
> 
> I have to go now, help donate some time to do some hard labor to help a black guy build a living space, a close friend of mine, who is moving on to another white friend of mine's house, who is paying for almost of the cost of the building the dwelling.
> 
> While we lugging the lumber and working side by side all day, me and Tony, the black dude, working lockstep all day, I assume that we will be discussing the issues of the day, like we always do when we hang out. I will be sure to mention the fact that I just gave a stranded black guy a jumpstart last night at Walmart, in case he thinks I have an issue with black people...  Maybe I will ask him if I should feel guilty for being white...
> 
> Terrasita your assumptions about what I think cut me to the bone. They were rude, I cant wait to here your analysis of my "vision of fear" from your ignorant ass.


Joby,

I'm not about to take a trip down memory lane through your posts regarding your fear. I don't assume anything. Its what you've said. First you say you don't know what I mean and I need to explain it. Now you say my reference to your fears cut you to the bone and are rude. If you don't know what I'm talking about, why so emotional and back to attack mode? Ignorance is thinking that your little giggle in the store with two black males is a reflection that all is right with the world. Ignorance is after starting this discussion as part of the GW defense, as the doors open, switching to this long "I am down with black folks" diatribe to address and deny so called "white guilt" which is what your aftermath has turned into. Now those with closet baggage want to drag in as many so called black negatives as they can find. Why? You realize that those who aren't guilty wouldn't dream of offering a defense and don't assume they are the accused in anything? All you're doing is demonstrating the actual baggage you carry. As usual, you go into attack mode. But fear and reality can do that. Ignorance is thinking that you can speak for the totality of white and black experience and that you even know what it is. This isn't about neighborhood watch or CCW or educating anyone about how to conduct themselves regarding either one of them. Having participated in neighborhood watch, I can tell you that its "watch" and make a phone call. Neighborhood watch doesn't have anything to do with carrying a weapon or going on your own personal seek and find mission. Have you ever made a 911 call and given a description? Basically, its a height description, clothes description, and race. Walk into my son's high school and most of them are wearing the same thing. Half of them are the same height. So when I've done a 911 call and given a description, I'm sure the dispatcher would think 1/2 the population fit that description which is why I think an earlier post stating GZ's prior calls added something to this was waaayyyy off the mark and doesn't enlighten or justify any of GZ's actions. Young black male approximately 5'10--6' wearing . . .is pretty generic. The movie ****** High comes to mind. It started as being about one man who thought he had the right to infringe upon someone else's rights. All you know about the other individual's response [verbal or physical] is what GZ said. But then GZ had to go and muck it up with some of his comments as to what he was going to do and why, which should have been indefensible. But then folks wanna come in defend GZ's thought process. That's when all the closet doors started opening. Now here and on FB, you get all this negative Black crap. How is that relevant and why are so many people including themselves with GZ and going on the defensive? And then look at what they offer as a defense. They can't fathom that one wrong doesn't justify the other.

Regardless, like I said, George Zimmerman was afforded all the benefits of this country's legal system. Treyvon Martin was not. Black, white or green. That's the problem. Then comes the issue of why he was denied the rights George Zimmerman so enjoyed. Then you get into some pretty ugly realities. Surprisingly, the least discussed is Florida's laws.

T


----------



## john simmons

After 6 pages of mostly nonsense bar a few(Joby and yes, Tom), I must interject. There are no winners in this case. If anyone here thinks George, not GZ, is free, walk in his shoes for the next few years- most would rather be dead! 
For those who don't believe, or their country doesn't allow, the right to carry a firearm- you probably shouldn't comment because this case was not about the 2A. It also wasn't about race!! It was about 2 men and yes TM was a man! He was man size and he was behaving like(wannabe?) a man. Not on this night but he was making the transition... Smoking weed, playing with illegal(17yr old) guns, other fighting scenarios, etc. is not "kid" stuff. He did not identify himself as a "kid" as well as George probably didn't identify himself as a neighborhood watch volunteer. What happened after the 2 met will always be suspect to question. 
It is quite apparent that most people didn't follow the trial closely or not at all and are commenting based on what they hear from their like minded friends, the media and celebrities. Here and around you can still hear that TM supporters are still skewing the few FACTs that did come out. 
The racial aspect has been being stoked since Obama said TM could be his son. What BS because one of the few facts that did come out was that George didn't act based on racial bias!!! If anything the facts should that it was no an issue at all to George. This man shot another man because he believed his life was in imminent danger. Who know's if the next punch was the one that turned George into a vegetable? Actually, George, per the law, didn't need to have a scratch on him to feel threatened to the point of shooting. There is nothing in the law that says one must take a beating before they must protect themselves- reasonably. 
As I sit and listen to the media, activists, and celebs make this a racial issue- they should hang there heads in shame- they are the TRUE racists!!
I'm not saying that is what's going on on this forum but I am venting since I have a little down time at work...
I feel sorry for Trayvon's and George's family because all of their lives are changed for ever!!!


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## Christopher Jones

From an outsider it is interesting to see just how divided people are in the us over race. I was watching a doco about race problems in LA where blacks are been ran out of traditional balck areas such as Compton and Watts by Latinos using violence and intimedation to cleanse the area of blacks.
Its very sad that people cant be left alone to live their lifes without having some f wit who thinks they have the right to interfer with you because of who your parents were.


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## Lee H Sternberg

john simmons said:


> After 6 pages of mostly nonsense bar a few(Joby and yes, Tom), I must interject. There are no winners in this case. If anyone here thinks George, not GZ, is free, walk in his shoes for the next few years- most would rather be dead!
> For those who don't believe, or their country doesn't allow, the right to carry a firearm- you probably shouldn't comment because this case was not about the 2A. It also wasn't about race!! It was about 2 men and yes TM was a man! He was man size and he was behaving like(wannabe?) a man. Not on this night but he was making the transition... Smoking weed, playing with illegal(17yr old) guns, other fighting scenarios, etc. is not "kid" stuff. He did not identify himself as a "kid" as well as George probably didn't identify himself as a neighborhood watch volunteer. What happened after the 2 met will always be suspect to question.
> It is quite apparent that most people didn't follow the trial closely or not at all and are commenting based on what they hear from their like minded friends, the media and celebrities. Here and around you can still hear that TM supporters are still skewing the few FACTs that did come out.
> The racial aspect has been being stoked since Obama said TM could be his son. What BS because one of the few facts that did come out was that George didn't act based on racial bias!!! If anything the facts should that it was no an issue at all to George. This man shot another man because he believed his life was in imminent danger. Who know's if the next punch was the one that turned George into a vegetable? Actually, George, per the law, didn't need to have a scratch on him to feel threatened to the point of shooting. There is nothing in the law that says one must take a beating before they must protect themselves- reasonably.
> As I sit and listen to the media, activists, and celebs make this a racial issue- they should hang there heads in shame- they are the TRUE racists!!
> I'm not saying that is what's going on on this forum but I am venting since I have a little down time at work...
> I feel sorry for Trayvon's and George's family because all of their lives are changed for ever!!!


Zimmerman might not be free but he's going to be rich. Books, movie rights. speeches, etc are all in the works for him. I'm not sure he would trade all those benifits for the months of what he went and is going to go through.


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## Mark Sheplak

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Surprisingly, the least discussed is Florida's laws.
> 
> T


Exactly which aspect of Florida's law came into play? 'Stand your ground' had zero to do with this particular case. How would this situation been any different legally in another state that has a concealed weapons permit law? 

It is a tragedy to be sure, but the self defense angle of this case is universal. Again, no one knows what happened for sure, but if a guy is sitting on top of another guy beating him and he is fearing for his life, self defense is self defense from a legal perspective. 

I just don't see how Florida's laws uniquely led to this verdict. 




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## susan tuck

David Ruby said:


> It certainly _could_ have. If it's a white kid in a hoodie who gets chased, then knocks down down the guy from neighborhood watch and starts beating on him, ultimately getting shot if he takes it too far and the guy on the bottom becomes fearful for his life. That is not terribly hard to believe.
> -Cheers


I think the question is would George Zimmerman have thought Trayvon suspicious if he were white, would he have initiated the call, etc.. 

The answer is I'm not so sure. 

I'm not talking about overt racism, I'm not saying that George Zimmerman consciously was suspicious because Trayvon was black and wore a hoodie. I'm talking about unconscious bias. 

I'm sure everyone is familiar with the term "bias". Unfortunately most people have a bias they are not even aware of. 

The problem is when you are constantly on the receiving end of this bias, having to deal with people every day who show you their "unconscious bias" in a million little ways every single day, it gets real old, real fast, doesn't really matter that it's unintentional.

http://people.uncw.edu/browna/documents/UnderstandingUnconsciousBiasUnintentionalRacism.pdf

To see what I'm talking about, take the Project Implicit raceIAT (Implicit Association Test). Some may be very surprised by their results.: 

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/aboutus.html

Whether people want to acknowledge it or not, there are race issues in this country, and sweeping them under the rug does nobody any favors.


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## susan tuck

oops sorry, made a mistake disregard this post please.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I am sure it will never be fully sorted out but to me the main issue here is of people playing cop. 

GZ did his intervention, and it should have stopped with the phone call. Sure, if one person is hurting another person, by all means step in to stop it but otherwise, leave policing to the police and that is exactly what neighborhood watch teaches you! GZ should have called the police then initiated the neighborhood watch telephone tree.

There is also plenty of evidence that 17 year old males typically do NOT have fully adult brains, particularly in the area of impulsive behavior but I am sure there was some adrenaline at work in TM that day.

Honestly, I don't care if he spends the rest of his life looking over his shoulder. In the end, it may be worse than prison.

I do totally agree, though, that there are serious race issues in this country. Some of which have improved, others have not. There are also issues of class and GZ, while partially hispanic, had a very well positioned white father and that was worth something to him. FWIW, I have not listened to the piece yet but I understand he wants his gun back and an apology. He also said he would do exactly the same thing again.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Mark Sheplak said:


> Exactly which aspect of Florida's law came into play? 'Stand your ground' had zero to do with this particular case. How would this situation been any different legally in another state that has a concealed weapons permit law?
> 
> It is a tragedy to be sure, but the self defense angle of this case is universal. Again, no one knows what happened for sure, but if a guy is sitting on top of another guy beating him and he is fearing for his life, self defense is self defense from a legal perspective.
> 
> I just don't see how Florida's laws uniquely led to this verdict.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She better stick with herding sheep. She just doesn't seem to have a clue!#-o


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> Exactly which aspect of Florida's law came into play? 'Stand your ground' had zero to do with this particular case. How would this situation been any different legally in another state that has a concealed weapons permit law?
> 
> It is a tragedy to be sure, but the self defense angle of this case is universal. Again, no one knows what happened for sure, but if a guy is sitting on top of another guy beating him and he is fearing for his life, self defense is self defense from a legal perspective.
> 
> I just don't see how Florida's laws uniquely led to this verdict.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


State law is state law and each one can be different in terms of what it takes to prove something. Without knowing anything about it since the occurrence, except what I've read here my take on it has always been that how do you disprove his so called self defense theory if one of them is dead and you don't have witnesses to what was said between them or their actions. Do I really assume George Zimmerman is credible? No. But it comes down to what you can prove. Proving state of mind with circumstantial evidence can be pretty precarious. If this is about self defense then why is anyone discussing hoodies, darkness, rain, etc.? He followed him. To do what? He took his gun with him. Why? He said he was tired of "the assholes getting away," or so they say. I don't care what the race or ages are, that makes it all suspect. You have a civilian playing cop and he has no right. You have an individual who has a right to go and do as he pleases outside the intervention of law enforcement; or so I presume. From there you don't know what happened other than what GZ says. I think James Downey had the best synopsis of it. Its like a drunk guy starting something in a bar and then when shit hits the fan, he pulls his gun when he gets the crap beat out of him. Since when is it self defense when you start it? Again, just going by what has been said here. I don't have the trial transcripts, police statements or 911 transcript. You'll never know because the only witness is dead as to what took place from the point in time the two first came into contact with each other. Every crook knows its damn hard to get convicted of something if they don't have a witness; especially if they keep their mouth shut. The rest is just arguing hypotheticals and a lot of assumptions as to what Treyvon Martin did or didn't do.

What continues to come out of this is lets make the kid a man [guns, marijuana, etc.] and justify George's actions and thought process. Go to any high school or middle school for that matter and take a poll on how many have indulged in alcohol or marijuana ages 13-18. I would love to know the hoodie sales for Hollister, Aeropostile and American Eagle each season. My neighbor just told me he bought his 2 year old his first BB gun. As for Obama, he isn't the only one that thinks that could've been his. Its a scary thought that walking around in something as generic and universal as a hoodie makes you suspect for the local wanna be cop to think he is going to follow you and detain you and heaven help you if you think you have the right to say no or resist. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Lee H Sternberg said:


> She better stick with herding sheep. She just doesn't seem to have a clue!#-o


No you don't if you think state laws as to the proof elements are universal.
Unless you have the laws sitting in front of you along with jury instructions, its speculation at best. Stick to the coco locos.

T


----------



## john simmons

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> State law is state law and each one can be different in terms of what it takes to prove something. Without knowing anything about it since the occurrence, except what I've read here my take on it has always been that how do you disprove his so called self defense theory if one of them is dead and you don't have witnesses to what was said between them or their actions. Do I really assume George Zimmerman is credible? No. But it comes down to what you can prove. Proving state of mind with circumstantial evidence can be pretty precarious. If this is about self defense then why is anyone discussing hoodies, darkness, rain, etc.? He followed him. To do what? He took his gun with him. Why? He said he was tired of "the assholes getting away," or so they say. I don't care what the race or ages are, that makes it all suspect. You have a civilian playing cop and he has no right. You have an individual who has a right to go and do as he pleases outside the intervention of law enforcement; or so I presume. From there you don't know what happened other than what GZ says. I think James Downey had the best synopsis of it. Its like a drunk guy starting something in a bar and then when shit hits the fan, he pulls his gun when he gets the crap beat out of him. Since when is it self defense when you start it? Again, just going by what has been said here. I don't have the trial transcripts, police statements or 911 transcript. You'll never know because the only witness is dead as to what took place from the point in time the two first came into contact with each other. Every crook knows its damn hard to get convicted of something if they don't have a witness; especially if they keep their mouth shut. The rest is just arguing hypotheticals and a lot of assumptions as to what Treyvon Martin did or didn't do.
> 
> What continues to come out of this is lets make the kid a man [guns, marijuana, etc.] and justify George's actions and thought process. Go to any high school or middle school for that matter and take a poll on how many have indulged in alcohol or marijuana ages 13-18. I would love to know the hoodie sales for Hollister, Aeropostile and American Eagle each season. My neighbor just told me he bought his 2 year old his first BB gun. As for Obama, he isn't the only one that thinks that could've been his. Its a scary thought that walking around in something as generic and universal as a hoodie makes you suspect for the local wanna be cop to think he is going to follow you and detain you and heaven help you if you think you have the right to say no or resist.
> 
> T


T- my point exactly- you didn't read anything except hearsay hear and other outlets of opinion. You really shouldn't comment without knowing the facts that were presented at the trial. 
i second Lee's last comment...


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## Kevin Barrett

It's an unfortunate instance all the way around but it's hard to judge ages of some of the young people these says, the 13 year old kid who mows my yard is every bit of 6'2" almost a half foot taller than me. White, black, brown or green I'm sure nobody wants the hell beat out of them. I can't help to think if it was a white on white or black on black or even black on white we would of heard about it hundreds of miles away. Bad things happen its not always racially motivated.


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## Mark Sheplak

T.,

You didn't really address how the laws in Florida affected this case. You stated that no one is talking about them and I wanted clarification about how they differ from another state. I don't see how Florida's laws played any role in this case. 


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## Lee H Sternberg

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> State law is state law and each one can be different in terms of what it takes to prove something. Without knowing anything about it since the occurrence, except what I've read here my take on it has always been that how do you disprove his so called self defense theory if one of them is dead and you don't have witnesses to what was said between them or their actions. Do I really assume George Zimmerman is credible? No. But it comes down to what you can prove. Proving state of mind with circumstantial evidence can be pretty precarious. If this is about self defense then why is anyone discussing hoodies, darkness, rain, etc.? He followed him. To do what? He took his gun with him. Why? He said he was tired of "the assholes getting away," or so they say. I don't care what the race or ages are, that makes it all suspect. You have a civilian playing cop and he has no right. You have an individual who has a right to go and do as he pleases outside the intervention of law enforcement; or so I presume. From there you don't know what happened other than what GZ says. I think James Downey had the best synopsis of it. Its like a drunk guy starting something in a bar and then when shit hits the fan, he pulls his gun when he gets the crap beat out of him. Since when is it self defense when you start it? Again, just going by what has been said here. I don't have the trial transcripts, police statements or 911 transcript. You'll never know because the only witness is dead as to what took place from the point in time the two first came into contact with each other. Every crook knows its damn hard to get convicted of something if they don't have a witness; especially if they keep their mouth shut. The rest is just arguing hypotheticals and a lot of assumptions as to what Treyvon Martin did or didn't do.
> 
> What continues to come out of this is lets make the kid a man [guns, marijuana, etc.] and justify George's actions and thought process. Go to any high school or middle school for that matter and take a poll on how many have indulged in alcohol or marijuana ages 13-18. I would love to know the hoodie sales for Hollister, Aeropostile and American Eagle each season. My neighbor just told me he bought his 2 year old his first BB gun. As for Obama, he isn't the only one that thinks that could've been his. Its a scary thought that walking around in something as generic and universal as a hoodie makes you suspect for the local wanna be cop to think he is going to follow you and detain you and heaven help you if you think you have the right to say no or resist.
> 
> T


HeyT, L here! You just keep digging a deeper and deeper hole of ignorance on this subject with these nutty posts!#-o


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No you don't if you think state laws as to the proof elements are universal.
> Unless you have the laws sitting in front of you along with jury instructions, its speculation at best. Stick to the coco locos.
> 
> T


Hey T, L here! My God gal this gets better and better!:lol:


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Mark Sheplak said:


> T.,
> 
> You didn't really address how the laws in Florida affected this case. You stated that no one is talking about them and I wanted clarification about how they differ from another state. I don't see how Florida's laws played any role in this case.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


NO SHIT! They didn't play a role.


----------



## David Ruby

susan tuck said:


> I think the question is would George Zimmerman have thought Trayvon suspicious if he were white, would he have initiated the call, etc..
> 
> The answer is I'm not so sure.
> 
> I'm not talking about overt racism, I'm not saying that George Zimmerman consciously was suspicious because Trayvon was black and wore a hoodie. I'm talking about unconscious bias.
> 
> I'm sure everyone is familiar with the term "bias". Unfortunately most people have a bias they are not even aware of.


Agreed. It is hard-to-impossible to say. Legally, I do not think it makes much difference what motivated him to follow Martin, not in the murder case I am not sure in terms of the upcoming civil suit. Everybody has some bias in various ways. It is human nature. However, it is still going to be hard to know definitively what caused Zimmerman to go after Martin. It could be because he was black, because of his clothes, because of how Martin looked him (which could easily have been because some guy he never met was staring him down when he was doing nothing). Who knows?



> The problem is when you are constantly on the receiving end of this bias, having to deal with people every day who show you their "unconscious bias" in a million little ways every single day, it gets real old, real fast, doesn't really matter that it's unintentional.


Agreed. Still, we have to build on society and our alleged civilized nation. Even if it gets old and fast, that still does not legally excuse you to use an unwarranted amount of force. _If_ that is what happened. Martin took it to a dangerous level. _If_ it happened some other way, then you can argue he was a victim. The evidence does not support Zimmerman actually starting any physical altercation, and sadly he is not around to tell his side. I understand bias and that there are racial problems. Legally, we still have to have rules and look at it regardless of creed, color, religion, sexuality, gender, etc., etc.



> Whether people want to acknowledge it or not, there are race issues in this country, and sweeping them under the rug does nobody any favors.


True. The important question in my mind is what do we do about it? Can we ever get beyond our differences or our history? I would like to believe so. Incidents like this have me highly skeptical I will ever see it. There is something completely deflating about that.

-Cheers


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## Sarah Platts

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You'll never know because the only witness is dead as to what took place from the point in time the two first came into contact with each other.


Actually there is a* second* witness. GZ is the second witness and he told LE what happened when they met. Now whether or not you believe him, is a personal choice.


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## Nicole Stark

Sarah Platts said:


> Actually there is a* second* witness. GZ is the second witness and he told LE what happened when they met. Now whether or not you believe him, is a personal choice.


Perhaps that's where the prior statement of "guilty until proven innocent" (misstated precept) actually came into play? :lol:

There's a lot of "what if" type of thinking taking place here. I kinda like that. I mean earlier today I wondered what if I had a tail. My first thought was then I'd have to start wearing more skirts and dresses to hide it or or if I didn't want to hide it, I could just replace all my pants and shorts with ones that had a little hole in them. That kind of thinking led me to wonder what if I could wag my tail... the good thing about becoming an adult is we wonder about different things than what children do. Some do anyway. 

I don't know about any one else but sometimes I just want to look at what is. I might not even care to talk about it. Sometimes I just want to know that I feel a certain way and understand it for what it is. No one else even needs to know or hear about that.


----------



## susan tuck

David Ruby said:


> Agreed. It is hard-to-impossible to say. Legally, I do not think it makes much difference what motivated him to follow Martin, not in the murder case I am not sure in terms of the upcoming civil suit. Everybody has some bias in various ways. It is human nature. However, it is still going to be hard to know definitively what caused Zimmerman to go after Martin. It could be because he was black, because of his clothes, because of how Martin looked him (which could easily have been because some guy he never met was staring him down when he was doing nothing). Who knows?
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. Still, we have to build on society and our alleged civilized nation. Even if it gets old and fast, that still does not legally excuse you to use an unwarranted amount of force. _If_ that is what happened. Martin took it to a dangerous level. _If_ it happened some other way, then you can argue he was a victim. The evidence does not support Zimmerman actually starting any physical altercation, and sadly he is not around to tell his side. I understand bias and that there are racial problems. Legally, we still have to have rules and look at it regardless of creed, color, religion, sexuality, gender, etc., etc.
> 
> 
> 
> True. The important question in my mind is what do we do about it? Can we ever get beyond our differences or our history? I would like to believe so. Incidents like this have me highly skeptical I will ever see it. There is something completely deflating about that.
> 
> -Cheers


Absolutely, 100% agree that we will never really know. We can argue until the cows come home, but it will all be conjecture. I would imagine that like in most things in life, both parties have responsibility in what happened.

I also agree that at this point, it doesn't make any difference with regards to the George Zimmerman case, but it is important to realize that when people say it may have been racially motivated, they aren't necessarily calling Zimmerman a flaming KKK Racist, but may be referring to an unconscious bias/unintentional racism, and they are quite possibly right. This is a problem. 

I think it's important for people to realize this issue exists, and take steps to correct it within themselves and realize what's going on when they see it in others.

Like good ole Doc Phil says "when you know better, you do better"

:smile:


----------



## Kevin Cyr

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/15/holder-zimmerman-trayvon-civil-rights/2518435/


----------



## kerry engels

I thought this was interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF-Ax5E8EJc


----------



## john simmons

kerry engels said:


> I thought this was interesting.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF-Ax5E8EJc


Very good!! Remember, not guilty doesn't mean innocent but this was a lot of the evidence the prosecution fought and won to keep out of the trial!! So the flip side would be dead doesn't mean victim...


----------



## David Ruby

susan tuck said:


> Absolutely, 100% agree that we will never really know. We can argue until the cows come home, but it will all be conjecture. I would imagine that like in most things in life, both parties have responsibility in what happened.


I agree. My suspicion (the best I can do all things considered) is both parties probably helped escalate things to the end result presumably nobody wanted.



> I also agree that at this point, it doesn't make any difference with regards to the George Zimmerman case, but it is important to realize that when people say it may have been racially motivated, they aren't necessarily calling Zimmerman a flaming KKK Racist, but may be referring to an unconscious bias/unintentional racism, and they are quite possibly right. This is a problem.
> 
> I think it's important for people to realize this issue exists, and take steps to correct it within themselves and realize what's going on when they see it in others.


To me, given the unfortunate fact Trayvon Martin is dead, that is the important thing. _Nothing_ will bring Trayvon back. No matter what justice does or does not happen with George Zimmerman, the fact we are talking about this means there are deep-seeded issues in this country and maybe with all of humanity. I think most people are genuinely good and are pretty accepting of all races/creeds/colors/etc.

In short... What do we do now?

If the (I would argue vast) majority are not racist or exceptionally prejudiced, even noting we all have some bias based on human nature and our personal histories, where do we go from here? I can self-correct the rest of my life. Not bragging, however I think I am pretty neutral concerning your personal background or history. I'm just generally oblivious, for better or worse. At large, I do not want these sorts of things to be an issue, and I try to view you without much thought of your race, sexuality, economic background, or whatever. I just want to view you (and hopefully be viewed by you) for who you are as a person.

Relative to...



> Like good ole Doc Phil says "when you know better, you do better"
> 
> :smile:


_Do_ we know better? And if so, what can we do to _be_ better? I am not sure I have the answers. I feel pretty confident in saying this incident, whatever side you are on, has reinforced we still have a long way to go. Still, if any good is to come from all of this, hopefully it is an examination of what the "right" thing is, and how we can improve. I wish that at some point, whatever happens in regards to this case, we could grow to where these kinds of debates were items of history. Things from our past. Not things happening now, in the present, well over a century after our Civil War when we largely agreed that all men were created equal. The fact we are not at that point is beyond saddening to me. I feel dejected knowing these issues still play such a role in American society.

-Cheers


----------



## Joby Becker

Holy Crap..

I wonder if all of these protestors that got free signs actually know what the *World Workers Party* is? 

Communist movement again taking any chance they can get to try to take down our country.


----------



## susan tuck

David Ruby said:


> I agree. My suspicion (the best I can do all things considered) is both parties probably helped escalate things to the end result presumably nobody wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> To me, given the unfortunate fact Trayvon Martin is dead, that is the important thing. _Nothing_ will bring Trayvon back. No matter what justice does or does not happen with George Zimmerman, the fact we are talking about this means there are deep-seeded issues in this country and maybe with all of humanity. I think most people are genuinely good and are pretty accepting of all races/creeds/colors/etc.
> 
> In short... What do we do now?
> 
> If the (I would argue vast) majority are not racist or exceptionally prejudiced, even noting we all have some bias based on human nature and our personal histories, where do we go from here? I can self-correct the rest of my life. Not bragging, however I think I am pretty neutral concerning your personal background or history. I'm just generally oblivious, for better or worse. At large, I do not want these sorts of things to be an issue, and I try to view you without much thought of your race, sexuality, economic background, or whatever. I just want to view you (and hopefully be viewed by you) for who you are as a person.
> 
> Relative to...
> 
> 
> 
> _Do_ we know better? And if so, what can we do to _be_ better? I am not sure I have the answers. I feel pretty confident in saying this incident, whatever side you are on, has reinforced we still have a long way to go. Still, if any good is to come from all of this, hopefully it is an examination of what the "right" thing is, and how we can improve. I wish that at some point, whatever happens in regards to this case, we could grow to where these kinds of debates were items of history. Things from our past. Not things happening now, in the present, well over a century after our Civil War when we largely agreed that all men were created equal. The fact we are not at that point is beyond saddening to me. I feel dejected knowing these issues still play such a role in American society.
> 
> -Cheers


If what happens serves as an opportunity to look at the bigger picture, to begin open, honest and sincere dialogue regarding prejudice today, how to recognize it, how to deal with it, how to fight it, then as a people, our evolutionary wheel rolls forward, progress towards a better society. 

If what happens serves nothing but continued squabbling about Trayvon vs Zimmerman who did what and when to whom, then we will just remain mired in the muck...for now.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Lee H Sternberg said:


> HeyT, L here! You just keep digging a deeper and deeper hole of ignorance on this subject with these nutty posts!#-o


Keep drinking.

T


----------



## john simmons

susan tuck said:


> If what happens serves as an opportunity to look at the bigger picture, to begin open, honest and sincere dialogue regarding prejudice today, how to recognize it, how to deal with it, how to fight it, then as a people, our evolutionary wheel rolls forward, progress towards a better society.
> 
> If what happens serves nothing but continued squabbling about Trayvon vs Zimmerman who did what and when to whom, then we will just remain mired in the muck...for now.


I think the 74 people shot/ 12 killed mostly from gang violence over the 4th of July weekend in Chicago would be a better "big picture" to discuss prejudice than the G/ T case...


----------



## susan tuck

john simmons said:


> I think the 74 people shot/ 12 killed mostly from gang violence over the 4th of July weekend in Chicago would be a better "big picture" to discuss prejudice than the G/ T case...


Well whoop deedoo and yay for you. You want to argue with me over whats a better "big picture"???? Sorry, I am not having that retarded conversation with you or anyone else. [-X Who fing cares which example starts the conversation so long as the conversation is started? 

Prejudice and racisim, unintended racism and bias SUCK, no matter what, whether one person dies or 12 people die.

My point is, as a nation, it's an important and relevant dialogue we need to have, and if the George Zimmerman/Trayvon case is the cause for that dialogue to start, then that's great. 

What's important is that the issue is addressed.


----------



## john simmons

susan tuck said:


> Well whoop deedoo and yay for you. You want to argue with me over whats a better "big picture"???? Sorry, I am not having that retarded conversation with you or anyone else. [-X Who fing cares which example starts the conversation so long as the conversation is started?
> 
> Prejudice and racisim, unintended racism and bias SUCK, no matter what, whether one person dies or 12 people die.
> 
> My point is, as a nation, it's an important and relevant dialogue we need to have, and if the George Zimmerman/Trayvon case is the cause for that dialogue to start, then that's great.
> 
> What's important is that the issue is addressed.


Susan, I said it not to argue but I truly believe the G/ T case was not about race or prejudice. I followed this case very closely for personal reasons. It is a fabricated element of a tragedy that occurred for other reasons than racial bias or prejudice.
The conversation has been ongoing for decades and will continue to occur, morph and change over the next decades... Have a good night!


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## Bob Scott

My background to clarify my thoughts based on actual life experiences
I grew up in St. Louis city's North side in an area that was mixed since I was in kindergarden (1950). St. Louis passed school deseg in 1953. The Catholic schools started in 1947. 
We moved out of the city when I was 19. That was years after the "white flight" of the 50s and we had some great neighbors before and after that idiot period. There were idiots of all sorts before and after the "change".
I recall one of my uncles commenting to my dad when the house next door sold that we should get out now. I didn't understand my dad's response until years later. I was very young but it always stuck for some reason. Dad said "That man and his wife had to work twice as hard to get that house then I did". "I'll welcome them to the neighborhood". He did!
When I got married I moved to the area my wife grew up in . Typical St. Louis suburb area. In ten yrs that neighborhood became mixed. Again, we had great neighbors before and after. I stayed in that area because of great neighbors before and after the change. Education and econimics later changed the neighborhood again. It was not color. People of all color move out. It's pretty much a ghost town now. The school district has no accreditation and it has the highest crime rate in St. Louis County. You can now by a house there for 8-10 thou and the ones not vacant are mostly rental. !!!Education and ecopnomics!!!
I moved out of there 6 yrs ago to another mixed neighborhood in North St Lois County. I still have white, black, Hispanic, Muslim, young, old neighbors if you care to break it down like that. I prefer to say I STILL have nice neighbors aside from the occasional idiots.
There will always be idiots of all description in all neighborhoods.
I have served jury duty. I was sequestered for 8 days during a murder trial.
I have been called and showed up for Federal jury duty 2 times but was never selected, I suspect, because of honest answers concerning gun laws. Some make sense to me and some are useless.
I believe in CCW but feel the need to make the laws tighter. It's to easy!
People being afraid of one another because of color, religion, etc has always amazed me. 
We have excellent conceal carry laws in the State of Missouri but I still think it's to easy to get one. 
What happened in Florida was a deep tragedy because a life was lost. I wont get into the how and why of it all. I can only say, "according to Fla law" no laws were broken. It sounds like responsible people are working to change some of this. The blame can be shared somewhat by both parties but that will never make the tragedy of a life lost go away. 
The loss of life over the years, both justified or not seems to be the only way we've gotten our asses in gear to change the laws. Wish it wasn't such a tragedy in ALL the cases, justified or not!


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## susan tuck

john simmons said:


> Susan, I said it not to argue but I truly believe the G/ T case was not about race or prejudice. I followed this case very closely for personal reasons. It is a fabricated element of a tragedy that occurred for other reasons than racial bias or prejudice.
> The conversation has been ongoing for decades and will continue to occur, morph and change over the next decades... Have a good night!


Many people followed the case, some agree with you, some don't, but that's not important. 

What's important is the bigger issue of race relations, bigotry, racism, understanding racial bias, etc.. As to the conversation having been ongoing, it ebbs most of the time, hopefully it will continue to be discussed, especially when things happen like this case, which spark interest and bring these important issues into the national focus.


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## Joby Becker

Well I had a talk with my buddy Tony today.

We were talking about profiling. I shared with him that I myself as a white person living in a heavy African American populated area, that I was "profiled" on several occasions myself, while driving or walking. I was told I should just go home more than once for being in the "wrong neighborhood" (my own neighborhood).

Tony also told me that if he was going to be walking around in a strange area, that even as a black man, he would feel much safer if that area was not a heavily African American populated area. 

He went as far as to say that at night, in the rain, he would even prefer to walk around in an all white neighborhood, over most of the neighborhoods that he has lived in.

He did say he might get "interrogated for being black" or "profiled" and seemed a little upset by that,, but he said that beats getting robbed, shot or killed which is what he thought would probably happen if he decided to start walking around the hood at night often.

Tony grew up on the south side of Chicago in a few different places, then lived in the City on the North Side (where I met him), and now lives up in WI, in Racine.

He got shot in his foot for trying to go pick up a girl to go out on a date with, in a South Side neighborhood 7 yrs ago. He was waiting in his car, and another car pulled up and opened fire on him. Luckily his foot was the only thing that the guy hit..apparently his dreadlocks looked similar to someone elses that people wanted dead, at least that is what the girl told him that the "word on the street" was, that crime ws never solved, even though he was pretty sure that the girl had knowledge of who shot him.

I told him the concerns that some people on here have stated about how some people are fearful of black men and they think that is sad. HE actually shook his head and laughed at that one...

He actually told me that being pissed at white people for being "scared" or "suspicious" of a black guy is basically the same as blaming a rape victim for being fearful or not tristing of men in general. His words not mine, from a black man in his mid-40's. I was shocked mysel a little to hear that come out of his mouth.

We both pretty much agreed that both of us pretty much walk around with our heads on a swivel after dark no matter where each of us are, that everyone is a "suspect", regardless of race, and both agreed that is being aware of your surroundings and keeping your eye out for trouble.

Whenever I was able to legally, in Indiana, I almost always carried a gun, and usually had a trained dog with me as well, while walking around, you can call that being "scared", I call it being smart, as there was an unualy high rate of murders and violent crimes, Tony agreed, he said "you woulda been a fool not to"....

Tony also had a novel idea when we were talking about the race baiters, and supposed black leaders (that he feels are doing far more harm than good for race relations)....we talked a little about Jessie Jackson, since we both lived in Chicago...

His idea was that Jesse Jackson and the leaders of the black community in Chicago should organize the young black men to go out into the community and start fixing up the homes there, instead of whipping everyone into a frenzy about George Zimmerman.

Tony is especially critical of Jesse Jackson when he started the Rainbow Coalition in the 80's and what he did with Chicago's SUMMERFEST.

Jackson thought that the summerfest was too "white" that it was designed to attract people from the Suburbs and bring them into the city. He got the city to shut down Summerfest, basically like a big carnival atmosphere, food, bands, rides and things. The complaint was about the bands, and the food mostly, there were lots of Rock and Heavy Metal bands in the 80's that played Summerfest, and baically the charge was that it was not black enough. Since summerfest was stopped, which was a very profitable event for the city, and was replaced by Taste of Chicago, which does draw a lot less people than Summerfest did, and generally loses around a million dollars a year. This is personal to Tony, becuase he was in a Heavy metal band with his brother and cousin that used to play at Summerfest, the band was called Snowhite, and later changed to Znowhite, and Jesse Jackson made the comment that his band was trying to be white not black, because they were Heavy Metal, and the Summerfest that got cancelled was going to have record label scouts present, so they sorta blame Jessie Jackson for hurting thier chances of success.

He says it is very easy to get people to blame others for thier own problems, especially people in the black communities, and that instead of blaming people or the system, encouraging blame or trying to divide, that people should be uniting to fix the problems.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> T.,
> 
> You didn't really address how the laws in Florida affected this case. You stated that no one is talking about them and I wanted clarification about how they differ from another state. I don't see how Florida's laws played any role in this case.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Somewhere around post #30 there is a reference to "Florida having pretty strong laws governing this case." Like you, I thought, such as? But nothing more was said other than GZ didn't pose a stand your ground defense. Otherwise, for the clueless wonders, its a state law case and they have to prove it up according to state law. I don't assume all state laws are universal. When I think of guilty until proven innocent with what has been stated about this case, its not GZ that comes to mind, its Treyvon Martin. But my comments have been about people's defense of GZ's perceptions and motivations for following TM. Thread #1 started with a statement that walking in the rain in the dark is enough to make you suspicious to a neighborhood watch person. Why, and should it be? A statement like that has nothing to do with this case but everything to do with how you view people and individual rights. At what point does someone else have the right to infringe upon another's personal space and/or freedom of movement? That is what is at stake here--for me. Interestingly enough, it was the exact same question that came up prom night when you had teachers sniffing clothing, peering into the kids' eyes, following them to and searching from the outside parked cars.

T


----------



## susan tuck

Yes Joby, it's true that being interrogated for being black, beats getting robbed or killed, that doesn't make it right, or acceptable, and certainly is not a good reason to allow it to continue, it just makes it the lesser of a couple of evils. 

As far as your friend laughing at people who think it's wrong to be afraid of someone because of their color - that's one man's opinion, certainly doesn't speak for me, or anyone I know for that matter. 

With regards to uniting to fix problems, I'm on board with that, 100%, uniting everyone is the way, which is one of the major reasons I was a volunteer in South Central Los Angeles schools for many years before I moved up here, I wanted to do my part, too. Turns out it was the most rewarding thing I ever did in my whole life, I think I got way more out of it than the kids got, I miss it very much.

I don't think accepting the status quo as good enough because it beats getting beat up fixes anything.


----------



## Tony Hahn

Every state has “pretty strong laws” governing these types of cases. The basic principles behind Use of Force law is not that difficult to understand. 

In very simplistic terms, to legally use force against someone there must be several elements in place-
Ability
Opportunity
Jeopardy

Additionally, Preclusion comes into play as well as a proportional level of force.

People ‘follow’ us around throughout the day. Having someone walk behind you, even if they are obviously following you does NOT allow you to use force against that person.

Someone can piss you off or even frighten you, but unless ALL the elements justifying the use of force are present- if you use force against them you are NOT “defending” yourself. What you ARE doing is attacking them, which every state has “pretty strong laws” against. 

Before Martin could legally use force against Zimmerman, he (Zimmerman) would have had to perform a COMBINATION of acts that would make a reasonable person believe that he had the Ability and Opportunity to place Martin in Jeopardy, and furthermore a reasonable person would need to believe that Martin was Precluded from avoiding the Jeopardy. 

A reasonable person in Martins position would have to believe that he/she was about to be harmed and had no way to avoid that harm besides attacking Zimmerman. Obviously, there is plenty of evidence showing that not only was there no reasonable threat from Zimmerman, but also plenty of support for the fact that Martin could have easily avoided any perceived threat. 

Instead Martin chose to pound Zimmerman’s head into the cement and voice his intent to kill him. 

At that point Martin had-
The Ability to inflict death or serous physical injury on Zimmerman.
The Opportunity to inflict death or serous physical injury on Zimmerman.

At that point Zimmerman was placed in Jeopardy of death or serous physical injury.

Also at that point Zimmerman was Precluded from retreat or avoidance.

There are “Pretty strong laws” in all fifty states governing the justification for the use of deadly force in this type of case.

Zimmerman should have never been charged with a crime in the first place.


----------



## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> I don't think accepting the status quo as good enough because it beats getting beat up fixes anything.


Susan, it appears that you are only adressing part of the issue, a small part, I think fixing all the other issues is more important than attempting to fix the very small minority of people that are racist or predjudiced. And to fix those other things it is gonna take a major push from within those communities, not from White suburbia...

The only reason this whole thing blew up is becuase Zimmerman was reported to be white. If George Zimmerman is white, then so is Barack Obama...He is Hispanic, not white-hispanic, or self proclaimed-hispanic.. 

Hispanics kill black teenagers everyday in droves..as do African Americans kill other African Americans...where is the outrage..the hispanics damn near drove the African Americans straight outa Compton...and you are seriously concentrating on George Zimmerman?

Take New York, where stop and frisk is a huge issue..stop and frisk has not been proven to be very effective, but minority-group leaders and civil liberties advocates that are complaining about stop-and-frisk tactics do almost nothing to help combat crime in minority neighborhoods.

97% of shootings are commited by Hispanics and African Americans, 96% of the victims are also Hispanics and African Americans.

Minorites make up 89% of murder victims,and 86% murder suspects.

Assualts are 81% minority victims, and 88% minority suspects.

70% of Robberies that occur involve African American criminals, but only 30% of those victims are black

National Rape statistics show that white women that are raped get raped by white dudes 44% of the time, and 33% by African Americans. They also show that 100% (statistically) of African American women that are raped are raped by African American Men.

all of this, and George Zimmerman is a huge deal? seriously? why??? tell me that, yes it is tragic I agree, but this sort of thing happens everyday.

...that is the death of 1 child, by a Hispanic male. In every city, there are far more numerous and worse things that happen all the time...

What I dont like is how so many different groups are exploiting this incident..Anti-Americans, Communists etc..etc...

Everyone wants a civil rights case made, got news for those people, ain't gonna happen either...

If I was on neighborhood watch, everyone would would be a suspect, especially in the rain..Did anyone even baother to look at the stats for Zimmermans housing developement that was posted? 

I would profile everyone, no matter the race. I do this now, but only concerning myself and my stuff. Call me cynical...I am not saying I would shoot anyone, but sure would keep an eye on them.


----------



## Joby Becker

Even the great Jessie Jackson himself admitted he was scared when being approached by Black Males in Chicago.

...but somehow it is now a crusade to make every white person abandon all suspicions and predjudices against any minority people, no matter how innocous or minor they may be?...that is BS...

come down to Chicago and walk around a little bit at night Susan, see how suspicious or scared you might be yourself..or what kind of profiling might be going through your mind....come to North Chicago, or Waukegan or Racine WI.

How do we stop me from getting profiled or watched, or bing victimzed if I walk around in certain areas?


----------



## Nicole Stark

susan tuck said:


> Like good ole Doc Phil says "when you know better, you do better"
> 
> :smile:


Kinda like the actor "Eric Camden" of 7th Heaven says, "People do the best they can for who they are at the time."


----------



## susan tuck

Joby the issue I am addressing is unconscious bias/unconscious racism. If you think this is a minor issue, that's your opinion. I completely disagree with you, I think this is a social issue that needs to be addressed. I also think if people could move from arguing about the specifics of the case to a discussion of the larger social issues

I made a huge deal of George Zimmerman? Really? You're the one who brought the issue to this forum. You're the one who watched every day of the trial according to you. I'm all for moving from endless discussions of the specifics of this case to a more broad discussion of social issues, and if this case makes people think about broader issues, I think that's a good thing, but I guess some people are bound and determined to continue to bring the focus back to the specifics of this one case.

Pretty sure everyone is aware of crime statistics. There are far more numerous and worse things that happen then the death of a child? No kidding - do you think no one knows that?

If you were a neighborhood watch volunteer you would profile everybody, huh. How's that even possible Joby? All a neighborhood watch volunteer is supposed to do is report suspicious behavior, so I guess if you find everyone suspicious, that means you would be making a lot of phone calls to the police.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Joby Becker said:


> He actually told me that being pissed at white people for being "scared" or "suspicious" of a black guy is basically the same as blaming a rape victim for being fearful or not tristing of men in general. His words not mine, from a black man in his mid-40's. I was shocked mysel a little to hear that come out of his mouth.


Not really. An individual rape victim has been severely violated and has a REASON to fear and not trust men. Most white people fearing black people is without basis.

I really think they need to focus on the guy who shot the kids in the car if they want a posted child for a white on black crime, though. Lots of witnesses, clearer than ever......just too muddy with Zimmerman...


----------



## Mark Sheplak

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Somewhere around post #30 there is a reference to "Florida having pretty strong laws governing this case." Like you, I thought, such as? But nothing more was said other than GZ didn't pose a stand your ground defense. Otherwise, for the clueless wonders, its a state law case and they have to prove it up according to state law. I don't assume all state laws are universal. When I think of guilty until proven innocent with what has been stated about this case, its not GZ that comes to mind, its Treyvon Martin. But my comments have been about people's defense of GZ's perceptions and motivations for following TM. Thread #1 started with a statement that walking in the rain in the dark is enough to make you suspicious to a neighborhood watch person. Why, and should it be? A statement like that has nothing to do with this case but everything to do with how you view people and individual rights. At what point does someone else have the right to infringe upon another's personal space and/or freedom of movement? That is what is at stake here--for me. Interestingly enough, it was the exact same question that came up prom night when you had teachers sniffing clothing, peering into the kids' eyes, following them to and searching from the outside parked cars.
> 
> T


T,

Thanks for responding. I still think that this situation would have legally played out (if initially charged) in the same manner regardless of the state. I wish people would stop blaming FL. 

It is a tragedy that could have been avoided by both parties. Zimmerman could have stayed in his car and TM could have went straight home instead of turning around to confront. Society has lost a 17 year old who may have turned his life around and his parents are left to mourn. GZ will be 'free', but a marked man for the rest of his life. I echo Will's comments about the lack of outrage for the senseless slaughter of young inner city men that happens on a daily basis without comment from the Sharpons if the world. The media pays very little attention. How many potential Ben Carsons are lost every year?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Not really. An individual rape victim has been severely violated and has a REASON to fear and not trust men. Most white people fearing black people is without basis.
> 
> I really think they need to focus on the guy who shot the kids in the car if they want a posted child for a white on black crime, though. Lots of witnesses, clearer than ever......just too muddy with Zimmerman...


That is what I said to him as well. His point was that depending on where you are at, according to him, most of the serious crimes nearby are commited by black people.. I even told him that is not neccessarily true. I do usually win the debates with Tony, in my mind at least, and no it doesnt have anything to do with him being black... plus he did say the media reports on the crimes and it scares people more.

If anyone is looking for a poster child for white on black crime, they sure do need a someone else, starting with the fact that George Zimmerman is NOT white, regardless of witnesses..

I was not saying that there is not white on black crime, or there is not racism or prejudice. I was saying that there is a ton of housekeeping that needs to be done on all sides, before anyone starts accusing anyone else of anything.


----------



## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> Joby the issue I am addressing is unconscious bias/unconscious racism. If you think this is a minor issue, that's your opinion. I completely disagree with you, I think this is a social issue that needs to be addressed. I also think if people could move from arguing about the specifics of the case to a discussion of the larger social issues
> 
> I made a huge deal of George Zimmerman? Really? You're the one who brought the issue to this forum. You're the one who watched every day of the trial according to you. I'm all for moving from endless discussions of the specifics of this case to a more broad discussion of social issues, and if this case makes people think about broader issues, I think that's a good thing, but I guess some people are bound and determined to continue to bring the focus back to the specifics of this one case.
> 
> Pretty sure everyone is aware of crime statistics. There are far more numerous and worse things that happen then the death of a child? No kidding - do you think no one knows that?
> 
> If you were a neighborhood watch volunteer you would profile everybody, huh. How's that even possible Joby? All a neighborhood watch volunteer is supposed to do is report suspicious behavior, so I guess if you find everyone suspicious, that means you would be making a lot of phone calls to the police.


It means I would stop and give everyone the once over to ascertain what they are doing, if I was keeping a vigilant eye. It does not mean that I would be calling the police a lot..

I am not really close to many of my neighbors here but have stepped up and gotten into a couple situations over the past 3 years, although here there is not much profiling neccessary, as it is easily over 95% hispanic population.

RIght now my neighborhod watch profiling activity is mostly concentrated on the canine variety of offenders. Ever since I have moved here I attempt to detain and investigate every canine I come accross that is not with his people. I keep an eye on the goings on a little when I am driving and from what I can see from the windows of the house mostly.

Although I can tell you I was damn close to camping out in the woods during election season when people were stealing or vandalizing my political signs I was putting out on the public corner lot almost on a daily basis to attempt to voice an alternate opinion.

In the last 2 weeks before the election, I went through 12 signs. 

Ok, got you, you did not make a huge deal about Zimmerman, I guess that was more directed at the surprise as a whole the amount of hatred and concern about George Zimmerman...

my interest in the case was from a legal standpoint more than anything else, this type of thing is old news...I knew what the verdict was going to be because I watched the trial..

I am pretty surprised that he was even charged at all..honestly.


----------



## susan tuck

Joby Becker said:


> Even the great Jessie Jackson himself admitted he was scared when being approached by Black Males in Chicago.
> 
> ...but somehow it is now a crusade to make every white person abandon all suspicions and predjudices against any minority people, no matter how innocous or minor they may be?...that is BS...
> 
> come down to Chicago and walk around a little bit at night Susan, see how suspicious or scared you might be yourself..or what kind of profiling might be going through your mind....come to North Chicago, or Waukegan or Racine WI.
> 
> How do we stop me from getting profiled or watched, or bing victimzed if I walk around in certain areas?


Is that what I said Joby? I want to start a crusade? Not hardly, well unless your definition of crusade is different from mine. I would just like to see some good come from this incident, and in my opinion, since so many people are talking about it anyway, dialogue addressing the issue of unconscious bias would be moving in a better direction. Also unconcious bias is not something exclusive to white people only, so not sure why you focused on that, I sure didn't.

As far as prejudice, uh since the definition of prejudice is "Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience", yeah I would like to get rid of that too. Amazing you find that offensive, or consider it to be BS, but whatever, that's your problem, not mine.

News flash for you, Joby believe it or not, you aren't the only person who has dealt with issues, in an inner city.

So calm the fukkkk down and stop putting words in my mouth. Also I never said I hated George Zimmerman.


----------



## Edward Weiss

Zimmerman
From the Left and the Right with some agreement

http://news.investors.com/ibd-edito...d-in-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case.htm

http://news.investors.com/ibd-edito...darity-with-trayvon-martin-under-a-hoodie.htm


----------



## Kevin Cyr

Twitter was in meltdown when the verdict came Saturday night in the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin trial. Facebookers like this one were among many writing their fair share of posts on the trial and its outcome.
One online site in particular captured considerable attention – well over 100,000 visits a day and a public post-trial thank-you from Robert Zimmerman, father of the younger Zimmerman: “I have thanked Mark Omara and Don West. Now I would like to extend our heartfelt appreciation to you, our friends at CTH.”
The Conservative Treehouse (aka “CTH” and “The Last Refuge”) earned Zimmerman’s grateful acknowledgement because of its extraordinary investigative work undertaken throughout the saga, particularly in obtaining through Freedom of Information Act and publishing public records that revealed the corruption and racism connected to the charges and the trial itself, naming who was involved regardless of how high up the political food chain it went, in what the investigative bloggers called “The Zimmerman Railroading.”
Among its reports, Trayvon Martin’s drug use, explaining how the Skittles and Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail drink he carried that night are ingredients that, when mixed with dextromethorphan (DXM) cough syrup, create “Lean”, a concocted high which can cause psychosis and aggression over the longer term. According to the autopsy report, Martin’s liver showed damage consistent with DXM abuse.


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## susan tuck

Kevin Cyr said:


> Twitter was in meltdown when the verdict came Saturday night in the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin trial. Facebookers like this one were among many writing their fair share of posts on the trial and its outcome.
> One online site in particular captured considerable attention – well over 100,000 visits a day and a public post-trial thank-you from Robert Zimmerman, father of the younger Zimmerman: “I have thanked Mark Omara and Don West. Now I would like to extend our heartfelt appreciation to you, our friends at CTH.”
> The Conservative Treehouse (aka “CTH” and “The Last Refuge”) earned Zimmerman’s grateful acknowledgement because of its extraordinary investigative work undertaken throughout the saga, particularly in obtaining through Freedom of Information Act and publishing public records that revealed the corruption and racism connected to the charges and the trial itself, naming who was involved regardless of how high up the political food chain it went, in what the investigative bloggers called “The Zimmerman Railroading.”
> Among its reports, Trayvon Martin’s drug use, explaining how the Skittles and Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail drink he carried that night are ingredients that, when mixed with dextromethorphan (DXM) cough syrup, create “Lean”, a concocted high which can cause psychosis and aggression over the longer term. According to the autopsy report, Martin’s liver showed damage consistent with DXM abuse.


Usually when I post a link or a quote, I attempt to ascertain the validity of what I'm quoting or linking, before I post it. Same thing when I read other people's quotes or links, I check them out as best I can. Take the above for example. I couldn't find any official confirmation for any of the claims made by the website:

Turns out the only drugs found in Trayvons system were trace amounts of THC, the active ingredient in pot. You can read it for yourself in the toxicology report:

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/nmslabreport84.pdf

Granted he wasn't a choir boy, but smoking a little pot is not uncommon in older teens these days.

Looks like there was no evidence of any other drug, including cough syrup in his system, nor did the medical examiner mention any evidence of liver damage due to cough syrup. Read the autopsy report for yourself:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf

As to the infamous cough syrup concoction, "Lean", also mentioned above, when I click on the link provided, here's what comes up: 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lean

-Promethazine w/Codeine VC <- Sizzurp (active ingredient) 
-Original Sprite Soda <- Mixing ingredient (although different flavors of sprite are now used, such as sprite remix) 
-Jolly rancher candy <- Flavor additive 

I don't see any mention of "watermelon ice tea and skittles" does anyone else?

I saw Urban Dictionary also mentioned something called "sizzurp", so I checked that out too, thinking it might have the secret ingredients listed:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sizzurp

Promethazine w/Codeine syrup 
Any fruit flavored soda 
A jolly rancher 

Nope, no watermelon ice tea or skittles there either.

The watermelon ice tea and skittles combo isn't mentioned in the Urban Dictionary recipe for "Purple Drank" either.

In fact I couldn't find any "official" record or proof that Trayvon was a drinker of this stuff at all. I saw some conservative websites make mention of a facebook passage, but couldn't find any actual proof of it. But I got tired after looking for more than a couple hours. He might have been, he might not have, but like George Zimmerman was afforded the luxury of only being judged on actual evidence, I think Trayvon Martin deserves at least the same consideration in death, I mean does anyone think it fair to heap unsubstantiated character assassination on top of Trayvon Martin's dead body?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

I did the same research and came to the same conclusions that the kid just had a little pot in his system (which I could have said of most of my friends from the 70s who are now typical white collar Americans) and had an edge (not uncommon for a teenage boy to get into a fight).

I DO believe all the race issues discussed exist and there is plenty of evidence to me that do. The more I learn, the more inclined I am to think this particular case was simply wannabee cop gone bad. 

Trumping the race card on this particular case is going to backfire, while other cases that are more relevant are being ignored.

GZ's life is probably pretty much ruined and he will now live in fear every waking day of his life. In that regard, I think justice has been served.


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## Hunter Allred

I don't remember any riots when OJ was acquitted, and I think we all agree that he in all probability did commit murder. I also don't remember any race cards being played

As far as "GZ's life is probably pretty much ruined and he will now live in fear every waking day of his life. In that regard, I think justice has been served."

Justice isn't served if that is the case. He was charged, tried, and found not guilty. Vigilante justice isn't justice, and is simply skirting the law we are all supposed to agree to honor. What ever happened to being found not guilty, and so you don't pay for the crime. To try a man by a jury of his peers, find him not guilty, and then punish him just the same is not any form of justice I'm aware of.

If a civil suit is filed and he is found liable, then in that case, justice is served.


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## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I did the same research and came to the same conclusions that the kid just had a little pot in his system (which I could have said of most of my friends from the 70s who are now typical white collar Americans) and had an edge (not uncommon for a teenage boy to get into a fight).
> 
> I DO believe all the race issues discussed exist and there is plenty of evidence to me that do. The more I learn, the more inclined I am to think this particular case was simply wannabee cop gone bad.
> 
> Trumping the race card on this particular case is going to backfire, while other cases that are more relevant are being ignored.
> 
> GZ's life is probably pretty much ruined and he will now live in fear every waking day of his life. In that regard, I think justice has been served.


This is truly amazing to me how people can be so very different in opinion.

you believe ALL the race issues discussed in the GZ case/trialmedia circus exist?

I am curious as to why you believe that race even has anything to do with the GZ case?

I am of the opinion that anyone that had GZ on the ground fighting like that he would have also shot.

I also believe that someone who is concerned about crime and takes an active role, and is involved in Neighborhood Watch, that takes that role seriously would have taken an interest in anyone hanging out in the rain after dark in an unlit area close to housing units, especially if the person runs when spotted. It is no secret that the rain provides better conditions to commit crimes, as does darkness.

Also when you say in this case it was a *wannabe cop gone bad*, what do you mean exactly? 

I also think it is pretty sick that you feel justice was served because GZ now has to live his life in fear, after being acquitted.

So if GZ gets murdered himself, that is Justice?


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## Joby Becker

This case involved a Hispanic and an African American, for the record, and the neighborhood was a pretty good mix of races, multiracial.

GZ has black friends, and mentored black children, even making the effort to continue to do so after the program was shut down that he was involved with.

GZ became interested in Neighborhood Watch, after the police came into the development and solicited volunteers, he was VOTED in by the community to be the Captian, he also turned down a uniform and a car that looks like a police car that he could have gotten and used to patrol the neighborhood. I would think anyone that was a wannabe cop would have taken that deal and would be patrolling all over the place with his new found "authority" via the car and uniform...

The dude was driving to the store, saw some behavior that he deemed suspicious and attempted to keep an eye on the person until the police arrived. The is what he did to facilitate the event. 

this case has been promoted as a racial event, it is not, in my mind...it is an unfortunate event that took place, in which both parties involved could have done things very differently, and this whole thing would have not happened. It is also a legal case in which the prosecution given the current laws there, overcharged GZ. 

The opinions of course vary, but there are actually people that believe that GZ is a raging white racist, that went out of his way to get into a position where he could kill a black kid and get away with it..that is pretty sad state of affairs if people actually believe that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I find it amazing that you think that a few good deeds is dispositive of someone's racial views. I'm sure Nancy growing up in the south is just as amazed. From the age of 2-6, my son had a playmate. The playmate's family was heavily involved in church good deeds for all sorts of people and projects, including people of various races. I always took said playmate along for any outings to the zoo, book store, science center, botanical gardens etc. When the boys were 6, Susan moved in on the corner and the twosome became a threesome. Susan thought my son was all that. Wonder of wonders, the male playmate pulls her aside and says, "you know, white people are better than brown people." Later came things like, "your mother is going to hell because I don't see any bibles in your house," and "Al Gore kills babies." His parents were the epitome of charitable good deeds--always helping the elderly in the neighborhood [most of which who were black] and other people as well.
When the psychologist are studying racism and its historical basis [including slavery], there is this concept of paternalism that they have noticed that goes along with it. You should look it up and maybe you can understand what Susan and Nancy are trying to tell you. Boyz in the hood is not everyone's reality--white or black.

T


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## Hunter Allred

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I find it amazing that you think that a few good deeds is dispositive of someone's racial views. I'm sure Nancy growing up in the south is just as amazed. From the age of 2-6, my son had a playmate. The playmate's family was heavily involved in church good deeds for all sorts of people and projects, including people of various races. I always took said playmate along for any outings to the zoo, book store, science center, botanical gardens etc. When the boys were 6, Susan moved in on the corner and the twosome became a threesome. Susan thought my son was all that. Wonder of wonders, the male playmate pulls her aside and says, "you know, white people are better than brown people." Later came things like, "your mother is going to hell because I don't see any bibles in your house," and "Al Gore kills babies." His parents were the epitome of charitable good deeds--always helping the elderly in the neighborhood [most of which who were black] and other people as well.
> When the psychologist are studying racism and its historical basis [including slavery], there is this concept of paternalism that they have noticed that goes along with it. You should look it up and maybe you can understand what Susan and Nancy are trying to tell you. Boyz in the hood is not everyone's reality--white or black.
> 
> T


I'm born and raised in the south, went to public schools that were over 70% black. Every racist person I know would not be involved with, enter business with, do acts of kindness, etc for other races regardless of what race we are talking about. Racists blacks distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with non-blacks by choice. Racists whites distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with non-whites by choice. Prejudice Jews distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with gentiles by choice. GZ doesn't fit that profile to me.

By the way, I don't think Jeantel didn't know "cracker" was a racial slur for a second. You know what sucks about being white? You're supposed to just take racism directed at you on the chin... as though racism can only go in one direction


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hunter Allred said:


> I'm born and raised in the south, went to public schools that were over 70% black. Every racist person I know would not be involved with, enter business with, do acts of kindness, etc for other races regardless of what race we are talking about. Racists blacks distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with non-blacks by choice. Racists whites distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with non-whites by choice. Prejudice Jews distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with gentiles by choice. GZ doesn't fit that profile to me.
> 
> By the way, I don't think Jeantel didn't know "cracker" was a racial slur for a second. You know what sucks about being white? You're supposed to just take racism directed at you on the chin... as though racism can only go in one direction


White slave owners intermingled with black women and bore children with them. And??? Sure, cracker is a racial slur. That's the problem here. You all think that black racism towards whites and any other group [jews, hispanics, muslims, etc.] is forgiven or acceptable by those of the same race. ITS NOT! A friend of mine called me after reading this thread and asked what the hell is "black people acting like white people." I told her that's one of those racial stereotype concepts. Its one of the things my brother, son and I discuss. When you don't fit their stereotype, you're either labeled "acting white" or they think you are from another country--as if people are cookie cutter by race or neighborhood for that matter. Usually, they think you are from another country which is why you get asked what country are you from. As for GZ, I don't know why you all think you know him to the very core. 

T


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## Hunter Allred

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> White slave owners intermingled with black women and bore children with them. And??? Sure, cracker is a racial slur. That's the problem here. You all think that black racism towards whites and any other group [jews, hispanics, muslims, etc.] is forgiven or acceptable by those of the same race. ITS NOT! A friend of mine called me after reading this thread and asked what the hell is "black people acting like white people." I told her that's one of those racial stereotype concepts. Its one of the things my brother, son and I discuss. When you don't fit their stereotype, you're either labeled "acting white" or they think you are from another country--as if people are cookie cutter by race or neighborhood for that matter. Usually, they think you are from another country which is why you get asked what country are you from. As for GZ, I don't know why you all think you know him to the very core.
> 
> T


no one knows him to the core... but I've never met a racist who displayed goodwill towards the race he proclaimed he hated lol.

Who said I thought black racism aimed at whites was acceptable or forgiven?


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## David Ruby

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I find it amazing that you think that a few good deeds is dispositive of someone's racial views.


What else do we have to go on? Other than this incident, all we have to go on is his past history. _All_ of us are pretty much making hypotheses based largely on pure conjecture about what his character may or may not be like. The best way to do so is through is history, not solely on this one incident. Specifically an incident where he acted as a neighborhood watch, followed somebody seemingly at least in part because he was frustrated the police never caught the robbers, and ended up allegedly (and sort of reinforced by a jury-rendered verdict) in fear of his life enough to ultimately shooting somebody on top of him who had broken his nose and was slamming his head into concrete.

All we really have to base our view of Zimmerman on, if we want to be fair and not focus entirely on this one horrible incident that might not be representative of his true character, is his history. You call it "a few good deeds." Is that not more a pattern of his character? That is not to say he is Mother Teresa. I cannot speak to that anymore than I can speak to his racial views without meeting him, unless there is evidence one way or the other. However, if you are making claims or implications toward George Zimmerman's racial views, unless you are speaking hypothetically, it would be nice to have evidence supporting such implications. Without really getting to know him, that is all we have to base any impressions on; his past behavior insofar as we know it. Not that your examples do not have some merit, however it is perhaps unfair to use that singular example of a kid with racist tendencies and make too many generalities based on it. I realize it is one example, however that does not inherently negate any positives George Zimmerman, for instance, has done with people of different ethnic backgrounds, much less show he is a racist in culturally/racially-altruistic clothing.

-Cheers


----------



## David Ruby

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You all think that black racism towards whites and any other group [jews, hispanics, muslims, etc.] is forgiven or acceptable by those of the same race.


I really do not believe that at all. I doubt others do either.

You really seem to be painting us with overly broad brush strokes. While I doubt many if any of us actually believe racism from any group toward another is o.k. (white toward black or otherwise), I can only assure you I do not believe that. I also think you were wrong to compare conversation on this board to Jim Crow mentality. Most of us seem to view it as terrible Trayvon Martin was shot. However, some can see how things could have happened where George Zimmerman was not a racist or profiling or chasing Martin because he was black. There _were_ other possibilities. Plus, if it went down as Zimmerman said, even if he was overzealous in chasing Martin because he was frustrated with the robberies and the police never being able to do anything, if Martin jumped him and beat him up that is still illegal and as the law stands he had every right to defend himself without it being a racial issue. However, it is frustrating trying to discuss that on an open forum when you basically get called a racist for making that point. I guess you are going to have to take my word that I am not racist and I do not believe I am able to see how things could have happened that way because of some secret racial bias on my part. Yet, it sounds like that is what has happened.

I understand this is an emotionally charged issue. However, we should still be able to discuss this without people assuming we have not read about racism and how "you should look it up and maybe you can understand what we're talking about" (slight paraphrase), or these broad, sweeping statements about how "you all think that (fill in the blank with something it is unlikely hardly any of us think)." I mean, most of us do not know each other nearly well enough to make those kind of broad assumptions. I suppose you _can_, even if they might be wrong. However, that is not especially likely to help us (not just here, but as a nation) learn from this and figure out what to actually do. Sure, racism and prejudice still exist. However, we also have a Black President. We have made so many great strides. There is a decent chance most of us are _not_ actually racists. Perhaps we should focus on that for a bit instead of assuming the worst about each other.

-Cheers


----------



## Joby Becker

Hunter Allred said:


> I'm born and raised in the south, went to public schools that were over 70% black. Every racist person I know would not be involved with, enter business with, do acts of kindness, etc for other races regardless of what race we are talking about. Racists blacks distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with non-blacks by choice. Racists whites distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with non-whites by choice. Prejudice Jews distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with gentiles by choice. GZ doesn't fit that profile to me.
> 
> By the way, I don't think Jeantel didn't know "cracker" was a racial slur for a second. You know what sucks about being white? You're supposed to just take racism directed at you on the chin... as though racism can only go in one direction


Hunter, Cracker is a description.it is used to describe the ones that cracked the whips during the times of slavery. It is not a racial term according to some people or so I hear...anyhow GZ is Hispanic, so not really sure how it would apply anyhow to be honest...

I was talking to my friends 79 year old mother yesterday, she said they used to use the N word as a descriptive term, when she was young, such as "I am going to get some bread in N-Town, I'll be back in an hour.".. it was a descriptive term at that time that was not meant to be a racial slur...at least not by everyone using it.

but lets be fair here, TM was a teenager, teenagers say all kinds of things, and this is not the 1940's.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Joby Becker said:


> Hunter, Cracker is a description.it is used to describe the ones that cracked the whips during the times of slavery. It is not a racial term according to some people or so I hear...anyhow GZ is Hispanic, so not really sure how it would apply anyhow to be honest...
> 
> I was talking to my friends 79 year old mother yesterday, she said they used to use the N word as a descriptive term, when she was young, such as "I am going to get some bread in N-Town, I'll be back in an hour.".. it was a descriptive term at that time that was not meant to be a racial slur...at least not by everyone using it.
> 
> but lets be fair here, TM was a teenager, teenagers say all kinds of things, and this is not the 1940's.


Fully aware of the origins of the word (and thats just a theory). I can makeup a word and use it in a derogatory manner and make it an ethnic slur... its the manner in which its used that makes it offensive... and down here, in the deep south, "cracker", "honky", and "peckerwood" are ethnic slurs used to agitate, insult, or otherwise disparage a white person. I asked the black guy sitting next to me just to make sure. He concurred.

TM used it as part of an insult "creepy ass cracker" or whatever it was... it wasn't used as a term of endearment... I'm young, can't speak to the nature of its use back then, but I can speak to the nature of its use in my experience, and every single time it was used it was used as an insult.

I just stating it is, infact, an ethnic slur, as defined in every dictionary I've referenced and in wikipedia. Wasn't debating whether or not teenagers use appropriate language, or how much we should expect from nearly legal adults.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

David Ruby said:


> What else do we have to go on? Other than this incident, all we have to go on is his past history. _All_ of us are pretty much making hypotheses based largely on pure conjecture about what his character may or may not be like. The best way to do so is through is history, not solely on this one incident. Specifically an incident where he acted as a neighborhood watch, followed somebody seemingly at least in part because he was frustrated the police never caught the robbers, and ended up allegedly (and sort of reinforced by a jury-rendered verdict) in fear of his life enough to ultimately shooting somebody on top of him who had broken his nose and was slamming his head into concrete.
> 
> All we really have to base our view of Zimmerman on, if we want to be fair and not focus entirely on this one horrible incident that might not be representative of his true character, is his history. You call it "a few good deeds." Is that not more a pattern of his character? That is not to say he is Mother Teresa. I cannot speak to that anymore than I can speak to his racial views without meeting him, unless there is evidence one way or the other. However, if you are making claims or implications toward George Zimmerman's racial views, unless you are speaking hypothetically, it would be nice to have evidence supporting such implications. Without really getting to know him, that is all we have to base any impressions on; his past behavior insofar as we know it. Not that your examples do not have some merit, however it is perhaps unfair to use that singular example of a kid with racist tendencies and make too many generalities based on it. I realize it is one example, however that does not inherently negate any positives George Zimmerman, for instance, has done with people of different ethnic backgrounds, much less show he is a racist in culturally/racially-altruistic clothing.
> 
> -Cheers


I don't really make any claim toward's GZ's racial beliefs--supposition at best. I think Nancy's take on it is all you can do with it--wannabe cop or control freak gone bad. I also don't think you can make any claim based on things like good deeds towards other members of a racial group. You don't have to be extremist KKK or the Neo Nazis that jumped in on this to be racist which is I think Susan may be trying to get at.

My son hates it when I use his life examples. He grew up with another "friend" from elementary school. They played soccer together, did sleepovers, swapped video games, baseball caps, etc.--all the stuff that friends do. A couple of years he mentions that said friend was "conservative." I asked him what he meant. He stated that he didn't believe that black males should be romantically involved with which women. He didn't like it when I said well, that's a few centuries old. I then asked him, how many black girls has he been with. He said several. I asked, well why doesn't it go both ways?

T


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## kerry engels

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/04/z...o-investigated-martin-shooting/#ixzz2Z9MO5mLR


Based on the above link, and other evidence it seems unlikely Zimmerman was a racist. The FBI came to the same conclusion in there investigation of Zimmerman.


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## Hunter Allred

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't really make any claim toward's GZ's racial beliefs--supposition at best. I think Nancy's take on it is all you can do with it--wannabe cop or control freak gone bad. I also don't think you can make any claim based on things like good deeds towards other members of a racial group. You don't have to be extremist KKK or the Neo Nazis that jumped in on this to be racist which is I think Susan may be trying to get at.
> 
> My son hates it when I use his life examples. He grew up with another "friend" from elementary school. They played soccer together, did sleepovers, swapped video games, baseball caps, etc.--all the stuff that friends do. A couple of years he mentions that said friend was "conservative." I asked him what he meant. He stated that he didn't believe that black males should be romantically involved with which women. He didn't like it when I said well, that's a few centuries old. I then asked him, how many black girls has he been with. He said several. I asked, well why doesn't it go both ways?
> 
> T


The anecdotal story aside, where do you want to draw the line of "racism" at? Of course we'd all agree that Hitler was racist... but what if I say "I am only physically attracted to white women" am I racist? What if I said "hispanic people are hard physical laborers" am I racist? What about "I'm scared of all black men" Am I a racist? What if I added "because I've been robbed and beaten by several black men" Still racist? Are black people in the south who are distrustful of whites because they have experienced racism also racist for generalizing all those of another race?

p.s., the above are just food for thought, not representative of my personal experience or beliefs  Curious as to your answers


----------



## David Ruby

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't really make any claim toward's GZ's racial beliefs--supposition at best. I think Nancy's take on it is all you can do with it--wannabe cop or control freak gone bad. I also don't think you can make any claim based on things like good deeds towards other members of a racial group. *You don't have to be extremist KKK or the Neo Nazis that jumped in on this to be racist which is I think Susan may be trying to get at.*


I get that. However...If he has a lot of time under his belt mentoring Black kids and has a mix of friends including Black friends, that is not just that he is not an extremist, it just paints more a picture of him as, generally speaking, just a guy who seems fine with a mix of different backgrounds. So I disagree that you cannot make claims of his views on different racial groups when he has a history of associating with them in a mentorship-type role. It is also not that he is just not an extremist KKK or Neo-Nazi. The man is a mixed-race Hispanic himself who freely associates with Black friends and mentors Black children. Barring evidence to the contrary, I am going to say outside of the obvious incident, he seems to get along with different ethnicities just fine. It is not like he has some known history of being racially insensitive or bigoted. If he had, chances are the media would have jumped on it (not to mention his lawyers would have used it to establish a pattern of previous behavior). So to make speculation to the contrary without evidence just seems unfair.

-Cheers


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

David Ruby said:


> I really do not believe that at all. I doubt others do either.
> 
> You really seem to be painting us with overly broad brush strokes. While I doubt many if any of us actually believe racism from any group toward another is o.k. (white toward black or otherwise), I can only assure you I do not believe that. I also think you were wrong to compare conversation on this board to Jim Crow mentality. Most of us seem to view it as terrible Trayvon Martin was shot. However, some can see how things could have happened where George Zimmerman was not a racist or profiling or chasing Martin because he was black. There _were_ other possibilities. Plus, if it went down as Zimmerman said, even if he was overzealous in chasing Martin because he was frustrated with the robberies and the police never being able to do anything, if Martin jumped him and beat him up that is still illegal and as the law stands he had every right to defend himself without it being a racial issue. However, it is frustrating trying to discuss that on an open forum when you basically get called a racist for making that point. I guess you are going to have to take my word that I am not racist and I do not believe I am able to see how things could have happened that way because of some secret racial bias on my part. Yet, it sounds like that is what has happened.
> 
> I understand this is an emotionally charged issue. However, we should still be able to discuss this without people assuming we have not read about racism and how "you should look it up and maybe you can understand what we're talking about" (slight paraphrase), or these broad, sweeping statements about how "you all think that (fill in the blank with something it is unlikely hardly any of us think)." I mean, most of us do not know each other nearly well enough to make those kind of broad assumptions. I suppose you _can_, even if they might be wrong. However, that is not especially likely to help us (not just here, but as a nation) learn from this and figure out what to actually do. Sure, racism and prejudice still exist. However, we also have a Black President. We have made so many great strides. There is a decent chance most of us are _not_ actually racists. Perhaps we should focus on that for a bit instead of assuming the worst about each other.
> 
> -Cheers


Don't include yourself within definitions that don't apply to you or assume I'm referring to you.

T


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Hunter Allred said:


> I'm born and raised in the south, went to public schools that were over 70% black. Every racist person I know would not be involved with, enter business with, do acts of kindness, etc for other races regardless of what race we are talking about. Racists blacks distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with non-blacks by choice. Racists whites distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with non-whites by choice. Prejudice Jews distrust and don't interact, intermingle, or otherwise associate with gentiles by choice. GZ doesn't fit that profile to me.
> 
> By the way, I don't think Jeantel didn't know "cracker" was a racial slur for a second. You know what sucks about being white? You're supposed to just take racism directed at you on the chin... as though racism can only go in one direction


Well, I have already stated I did not think GZ's actions arose out of racism and there is some conflicting info on his status with neighborhood watch. He certainly was not acting consistently with directions given to NW volunteers.

But since we are still talking about racism. My great great great grandfater William Milton Davis (b1841) was a slaveowner who lost a leg fighting in the "war of Northern Aggression"..my mother's family has been in the south since before the Revolutionary War. My grandmother grew up with the black children of former slaves, and the family "kept" some of the older slaves after the war, yes. I won't tell you their names, it is embarrasing. They all loved each other and my mother was raised by a black woman while my grandmother worked in the sewing mills. Such was the rural south and the culture that set the scene. I never knew anything but amicable relationships between blacks and whites when I went to visit my grandparents, but the black folks "knew their place" .... limited opportunities were available to them, and they were/still are perceived as "inferior" to whites in a paternalistic condescending way. The southerners did not fear black folks. I am old enough to remember black men in their 70s calling me "yes ma'am" and being distressed when I called them "sir". We are not so far from this as I certainly went to segregated schools (private church schools till we moved to Florida in the late 60s).

My more northern family- 1800s immigrant stock from Europe hated and despised black people. Actually they hated and despised folks from other countries. I learned on my grandfather's knee derogitory terms for folks of every nationality except germans and my grandfather armed himself with an ice pick under his car seat. It went through that whole side of the family. There it was fear of the difference and lack of familiarity. My cousins on the BCFD, also very hateful towards blacks. Their experiences in slums where fire trucks were routinely blocked and firefighters assualted probably did not help change their viewponts but it was a different kind of racism. They never went to school with black folks. Catholic School for them. It took awhile for my cousin to understand I would not tolerate his language in my house. 

Honestly, I did not attend classes with a single black person until 1967 in Junior High School and that was only in gym. We had one black guy in one of my high school science classes as "phasing" [by then we were in Florida due to the space race and classes were segregated academically] effectively kept the races separate. We all got along and found him interesting but we had different groups of friends and never socialized outside of school. 

I absolutely believe racists can be nice to folks up front and stab them in the back by the 'good old boy' network. That is the essense of race relations in the south from my eyes and to me the worst form of racism. My own husband worked for a vending company where they could not ask for race on the application so he would overhear, "here is a new applicant, and he's black". FWIW, none of my relatives ever advocated violence against any black or, to the best of my knowledge, participated in the clan. But it is a form of racism that closes doors right in peoples faces and it is still going on.


----------



## David Ruby

A fairly interesting look at this from Adam Carolla that seems pretty pragmatic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWXZqjf8idQ&feature=youtube_gdata

-Cheers


----------



## Hunter Allred

The tragedy is he could have said "I live right over there" and nothing would have come of it.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Well, I have already stated I did not think GZ's actions arose out of racism and there is some conflicting info on his status with neighborhood watch. He certainly was not acting consistently with directions given to NW volunteers.
> 
> But since we are still talking about racism. My great great great grandfater William Milton Davis (b1841) was a slaveowner who lost a leg fighting in the "war of Northern Aggression"..my mother's family has been in the south since before the Revolutionary War. My grandmother grew up with the black children of former slaves, and the family "kept" some of the older slaves after the war, yes. I won't tell you their names, it is embarrasing. They all loved each other and my mother was raised by a black woman while my grandmother worked in the sewing mills. Such was the rural south and the culture that set the scene. I never knew anything but amicable relationships between blacks and whites when I went to visit my grandparents, but the black folks "knew their place" .... limited opportunities were available to them, and they were/still are perceived as "inferior" to whites in a paternalistic condescending way. The southerners did not fear black folks. I am old enough to remember black men in their 70s calling me "yes ma'am" and being distressed when I called them "sir". We are not so far from this as I certainly went to segregated schools (private church schools till we moved to Florida in the late 60s).
> 
> My more northern family- 1800s immigrant stock from Europe hated and despised black people. Actually they hated and despised folks from other countries. I learned on my grandfather's knee derogitory terms for folks of every nationality except germans and my grandfather armed himself with an ice pick under his car seat. It went through that whole side of the family. There it was fear of the difference and lack of familiarity. My cousins on the BCFD, also very hateful towards blacks. Their experiences in slums where fire trucks were routinely blocked and firefighters assualted probably did not help their experiences but it was a different kind of racism. It took awhile for my cousin to understand I would not tolerate his language in my house.
> 
> Honestly, I did not attend classes with a single black person until 1967 in Junior High School and that was only in gym. We had one black guy in one of my high school science classes as "phasing" [by then we were in Florida due to the space race and classes were segregated academically] effectively kept the races separate. We all got along and found him interesting but we had different groups of friends and never socialized outside of school.
> 
> I absolutely believe racists can be nice to folks up front and stab them in the back by the 'good old boy' network. That is the essense of race relations in the south from my eyes and to me the worst form of racism. My own husband worked for a vending company where they could not ask for race on the application so he would overhear, "here is a new applicant, and he's black". FWIW, none of my relatives ever advocated violence against any black or, to the best of my knowledge, participated in the clan. But it is a form of racism that closes doors right in peoples faces and it is still going on.


I'm also a product of many generations here. My ancestors were plantation owners and had slaves. After the civil war, they all stayed and worked for pay. I'm not embarrassed by it. Why should you be? All of it was said and done long before I took a breath. 

There will always be a mentality of "favor the person who's most like me". Regardless of the country, timeframe, or circumstances. Thats instincts.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Hunter Allred said:


> The tragedy is he could have said "I live right over there" and nothing would have come of it.


The tragedy is that the older and, presumably more mature, Zimmerman could have followed the rules of neighborhood watch and let the police do their job and not approach him. 

When we get someone strange walking around we call the assigned officer (through the program) and then use the phone tree to let everyone know to keep their eyes open. 

I think that is how that is supposed to work. One night someone had been seen going through back yards and within 20 minutes everyone's flood lights were on.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Hunter Allred said:


> Fully aware of the origins of the word (and thats just a theory). I can makeup a word and use it in a derogatory manner and make it an ethnic slur... its the manner in which its used that makes it offensive... and down here, in the deep south, "cracker", "honky", and "peckerwood" are ethnic slurs used to agitate, insult, or otherwise disparage a white person. I asked the black guy sitting next to me just to make sure. He concurred.
> 
> TM used it as part of an insult "creepy ass cracker" or whatever it was... it wasn't used as a term of endearment... I'm young, can't speak to the nature of its use back then, but I can speak to the nature of its use in my experience, and every single time it was used it was used as an insult.
> 
> I just stating it is, infact, an ethnic slur, as defined in every dictionary I've referenced and in wikipedia. Wasn't debating whether or not teenagers use appropriate language, or how much we should expect from nearly legal adults.


Hunter, I agree with you. One minute there is the argument that TM wasn't a child or child-like. Now to discount racial issues, he's suddenly a teenager and they speak a language that doesn't have the same meaning and context and adults. My son and I have debated this as well and I've told him, teenagers just don't live with teenagers. Its a world composed of multiple age groups, ethnic identities, sexual orientations, etc. Its like saying its okay to use the N-word because blacks use it. Number 1, why define yourselves with a word that was used by others to label your inferiority. Why buy into someone else's definition of you? Two wrongs, so to speak don't equal right. You can't look at the surface on all things and assume you know what it is. Sometimes you have to dig deeper to understand the complexities and its not always black and white.

T


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Hunter Allred said:


> I'm also a product of many generations here. My ancestors were plantation owners and had slaves. After the civil war, they all stayed and worked for pay. I'm not embarrassed by it. Why should you be? All of it was said and done long before I took a breath.
> 
> There will always be a mentality of "favor the person who's most like me". Regardless of the country, timeframe, or circumstances. Thats instincts.


I am not embarrased by it, but I don't think it was all "said and done" but that those scars are still trying to heal.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The tragedy is that the older and, presumably more mature, Zimmerman could have followed the rules of neighborhood watch and let the police do their job and not approach him.
> 
> When we get someone strange walking around we call the assigned officer (through the program) and then use the phone tree to let everyone know to keep their eyes open.
> 
> I think that is how that is supposed to work. One night someone had been seen going through back yards and within 20 minutes everyone's flood lights were on.


It was the same with our neighborhood watch. The suppositions here abound. If the kid would have said--I live over there, who says that would have ended it. Fear has a way of interfering with judgment. I read the girl's testimony [[he says he's being followed. she says run] and I think why automatically say run? But really, take race out of it. Someone is following you, do you really think there is a good deed involved? I'm out walking my dog one night and a guy obviously was following me after a couple of blocks. I start kicking up the pace trying to get home. Dog picks up on it [one I thought was more like a golden retriever], turns and goes into a snarly rage. Guy stops and disappears. My heart was in in my shoes. I still don't get why everyone want's to impute all these warm and fuzzy feelings about GZ even when you take race out of it and if the kid would have acted different he would have been alive today. 

T


----------



## David Ruby

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The tragedy is that the older and, presumably more mature, Zimmerman could have followed the rules of neighborhood watch and let the police do their job and not approach him.
> 
> When we get someone strange walking around we call the assigned officer (through the program) and then use the phone tree to let everyone know to keep their eyes open.
> 
> I think that is how that is supposed to work. One night someone had been seen going through back yards and within 20 minutes everyone's flood lights were on.


I think the tragedy is that somebody died.

I would contest Zimmerman made a mistake, at least according to the evidence available filtered through my opinion. You can argue they both did. Some have argued Zimmerman did nothing wrong. Barring evidence to the contrary, the rest of the details are largely conjecture, some of it unsupported by much aside from emotion. It is an interesting debate, however how much should Zimmerman pay (tangibly or otherwise) for his role in this incident? Especially after being found innocent and portrayed in the media as a racist "White" guy regardless of all evidence to the contrary, and already forced to live with the fact he killed somebody, which should not be so readily discounted?

Not saying I have the answer, just sort of thinking aloud.

-Cheers


----------



## Hunter Allred

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hunter, I agree with you. One minute there is the argument that TM wasn't a child or child-like. Now to discount racial issues, he's suddenly a teenager and they speak a language that doesn't have the same meaning and context and adults. My son and I have debated this as well and I've told him, teenagers just don't live with teenagers. Its a world composed of multiple age groups, ethnic identities, sexual orientations, etc. Its like saying its okay to use the N-word because blacks use it. Number 1, why define yourselves with a word that was used by others to label your inferiority. Why buy into someone else's definition of you? Two wrongs, so to speak don't equal right. You can't look at the surface on all things and assume you know what it is. Sometimes you have to dig deeper to understand the complexities and its not always black and white.
> 
> T


The whole "18 is an adult except when we feel like changing it" is a whole diff issue. Either 18 is an adult, and a 17 year old is a minor even if he murders 50 people and you wish you could try him as an adult, or we draw that line somewhere else. That crap annoys me.

And not so long ago a woman was successfully mothering children at 16 at men were successful at business at 20. I wager most 30 year olds today are less mature than the 15 year old of 200 years ago, and yet science shows we are physically maturing faster


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Hunter Allred said:


> The whole "18 is an adult except when we feel like changing it" is a whole diff issue. Either 18 is an adult, and a 17 year old is a minor even if he murders 50 people and you wish you could try him as an adult, or we draw that line somewhere else. That crap annoys me.
> 
> And not so long ago a woman was successfully mothering children at 16 at men were successful at business at 20. I wager most 30 year olds today are less mature than the 15 year old of 200 years ago, and yet science shows we are physically maturing faster


Its been inconsistent for a long time. You have 18 year olds still in high school if they were fall/winter babies. How many 18 year olds can still enlist, fight wars and die but aren't considered of legal age or mature enough for things like purchasing alcohol? For me, 17-18 year olds are still kids. Physical age and mental age/maturity/experience are two different things.

T


----------



## Hunter Allred

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its been inconsistent for a long time. You have 18 year olds still in high school if they were fall/winter babies. How many 18 year olds can still enlist, fight wars and die but aren't considered of legal age or mature enough for things like purchasing alcohol? For me, 17-18 year olds are still kids. Physical age and mental age/maturity/experience are two different things.
> 
> T


At a certain point the physical piece of mental maturity is complete and the rest is "maturity by necessity" and we just don't require it


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Hunter Allred said:


> At a certain point the physical piece of mental maturity is complete and the rest is "maturity by necessity" and we just don't require it



That's part of the great parental and societal debate. 

T


----------



## Zakia Days

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's about the size of it. The only true witness will be dead and you'll get off on circumstantial evidence and reasonable doubt. And as long as you're white and can meet up two black guys in a gas station and joke about it, all is right in the world because you don't care and they don't either.
> 
> T


LOLOL! Yup.


----------



## Jessica Kromer

susan tuck said:


> Usually when I post a link or a quote, I attempt to ascertain the validity of what I'm quoting or linking, before I post it. Same thing when I read other people's quotes or links, I check them out as best I can. Take the above for example. I couldn't find any official confirmation for any of the claims made by the website:
> 
> Turns out the only drugs found in Trayvons system were trace amounts of THC, the active ingredient in pot. You can read it for yourself in the toxicology report:
> 
> http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/nmslabreport84.pdf
> 
> Granted he wasn't a choir boy, but smoking a little pot is not uncommon in older teens these days.
> 
> Looks like there was no evidence of any other drug, including cough syrup in his system, nor did the medical examiner mention any evidence of liver damage due to cough syrup. Read the autopsy report for yourself:
> 
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf
> 
> As to the infamous cough syrup concoction, "Lean", also mentioned above, when I click on the link provided, here's what comes up:
> 
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lean
> 
> -Promethazine w/Codeine VC <- Sizzurp (active ingredient)
> -Original Sprite Soda <- Mixing ingredient (although different flavors of sprite are now used, such as sprite remix)
> -Jolly rancher candy <- Flavor additive
> 
> I don't see any mention of "watermelon ice tea and skittles" does anyone else?
> 
> I saw Urban Dictionary also mentioned something called "sizzurp", so I checked that out too, thinking it might have the secret ingredients listed:
> 
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sizzurp
> 
> Promethazine w/Codeine syrup
> Any fruit flavored soda
> A jolly rancher
> 
> Nope, no watermelon ice tea or skittles there either.
> 
> The watermelon ice tea and skittles combo isn't mentioned in the Urban Dictionary recipe for "Purple Drank" either.
> 
> In fact I couldn't find any "official" record or proof that Trayvon was a drinker of this stuff at all. I saw some conservative websites make mention of a facebook passage, but couldn't find any actual proof of it. But I got tired after looking for more than a couple hours. He might have been, he might not have, but like George Zimmerman was afforded the luxury of only being judged on actual evidence, I think Trayvon Martin deserves at least the same consideration in death, I mean does anyone think it fair to heap unsubstantiated character assassination on top of Trayvon Martin's dead body?


You know... Reading Urban Dictionary is NOT going to educate you about drug use...

Lean did originally start as a specific recipe, but was quickly modified to personal preference. Kids (and adults) use ANY kind of light (not syrupy) drink ranging from fruit based sodas to straight fruit juice and anything in between. The point is to dilute the thickness of the cough syrup and make it easier to drink a whole bottle (or two) of the stuff, and quickly. There is no longer a "specific" liquid to use at all. 

The candy is used as flavor enhancer. ANY sweet/fruity candy is used. Jolly Ranchers "happen" to be the original type used and come in many flavors, but all types of candies are used. The idea is to flavor the drink created above to your personal preferences. Lemon Heads with Sprite is a popular mix around here, as is as is strawberry-kiwi with watermelon Jolly Ranchers. 

The cough syrup can be any brand. It does NOT have to be the prescription Codine kind. It is often called "robo-tripping" (or Roboting) because Robitussin is used (Robo pills are used as well for the high, and do not have to be cut with anything to get the high) as is Benylin DM, Mucinex DM, NyQuil, Dimetapp, Vicks, Coricidin, Delsym, TheraFlu, and others. 

Not saying that the teenager was going to use the fruit juice and candy FOR Lean, but they are most definitely two of the three ingredients for it. And via his Facebook page, he was at one point looking for hookups for the prescription Codine and was told it wasn't necessary, just get the over the counter stuff.


----------



## dewon fields

Those of you who want and need a black friend.........pick me, pick me!!!(hand in air)


I read all the comments on here..... I'm still enjoying the ignorance. You people dont have no clue about American history, besides what you learn been thru school text books and tv. 

It's been " open season" on colored men in America for 400 years. Plus u can still get away with it. TM/zim outcome didn't sadden me at all. Rodney king case did shock me.


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't really make any claim toward's GZ's racial beliefs--supposition at best. I think Nancy's take on it is all you can do with it--wannabe cop or control freak gone bad. I also don't think you can make any claim based on things like good deeds towards other members of a racial group. You don't have to be extremist KKK or the Neo Nazis that jumped in on this to be racist which is I think Susan may be trying to get at.
> 
> My son hates it when I use his life examples. He grew up with another "friend" from elementary school. They played soccer together, did sleepovers, swapped video games, baseball caps, etc.--all the stuff that friends do. A couple of years he mentions that said friend was "conservative." I asked him what he meant. He stated that he didn't believe that black males should be romantically involved with which women. He didn't like it when I said well, that's a few centuries old. I then asked him, how many black girls has he been with. He said several. I asked, well why doesn't it go both ways?
> 
> T


I dated 3 black girls in my life and I can say that none of them ended well, ended by family racial pressure. None of it from my family. 2 Of them were ended by the girls' older brothers, both of whom had several white GF each...one was ended by the girl's father, and that girl was 24 yrs old at the time. go figure. In all cases I can say the factor was race, because that is what I was told.


----------



## Joby Becker

dewon fields said:


> Those of you who want and need a black friend.........pick me, pick me!!!(hand in air)
> 
> 
> I read all the comments on here..... I'm still enjoying the ignorance. You people dont have no clue about American history, besides what you learn been thru school text books and tv.
> 
> It's been " open season" on colored men in America for 400 years. Plus u can still get away with it. TM/zim outcome didn't sadden me at all. Rodney king case did shock me.


Dewon, what is it gonna take, do you think, to move forward on the racial divide?

Everyone is thinking this incident will lead to the conversation and move forward to some solutions. It is very easy to talk about starting the conversation, but when does the actual conversation really start, with a real effort to move forward?


----------



## susan tuck

Jessica Kromer said:


> You know... Reading Urban Dictionary is NOT going to educate you about drug use...
> 
> Lean did originally start as a specific recipe, but was quickly modified to personal preference. Kids (and adults) use ANY kind of light (not syrupy) drink ranging from fruit based sodas to straight fruit juice and anything in between. The point is to dilute the thickness of the cough syrup and make it easier to drink a whole bottle (or two) of the stuff, and quickly. There is no longer a "specific" liquid to use at all.
> 
> The candy is used as flavor enhancer. ANY sweet/fruity candy is used. Jolly Ranchers "happen" to be the original type used and come in many flavors, but all types of candies are used. The idea is to flavor the drink created above to your personal preferences. Lemon Heads with Sprite is a popular mix around here, as is as is strawberry-kiwi with watermelon Jolly Ranchers.
> 
> The cough syrup can be any brand. It does NOT have to be the prescription Codine kind. It is often called "robo-tripping" (or Roboting) because Robitussin is used (Robo pills are used as well for the high, and do not have to be cut with anything to get the high) as is Benylin DM, Mucinex DM, NyQuil, Dimetapp, Vicks, Coricidin, Delsym, TheraFlu, and others.
> 
> Not saying that the teenager was going to use the fruit juice and candy FOR Lean, but they are most definitely two of the three ingredients for it. And via his Facebook page, he was at one point looking for hookups for the prescription Codine and was told it wasn't necessary, just get the over the counter stuff.


I'm aware of all that. The reason I used Urban Dictionary is because that's what the Conservative Tree House linked as if that was some kind of proof. My point was not to educate everyone on kids and drugs these days but to show that the Conservative Tree House quote was nothing but a nonsensical opinion piece, a hatchet job done on a dead kid, with no actual evidence to support it's "theories".

As you mentioned, any fruit drink can be used, also sprite and other carbonated sodas are also used. Any fruit candy can be used. It's so broad, it's crazy in my opinion, to assume Trayvon Martin purchased those items for the purpose of mixing them with cough syrup, many kids eat candy and drink pop with no intention of getting high. I think the only way to logically conclude bad intent would be if there was evidence of cough syrup, either in his possession or in his system, neither of which there was.

In fact, and as I mentioned in the post you quoted, I have yet to see any actual FB entry from Trayvon Martin regarding anything even related to cough syrup or codeine, though it's often stated as an accepted fact in op ed pieces. I did spend a couple hours trying to find any actual proof of the claims made in the Conservative Tree House piece but could find nothing.

When I read these hatchet jobs couched in terms to make people believe what they spew is fact, I am reminded again to "consider the source" and also "garbage in garbage out". The Internet is such a great tool, but at the same time, you still have to remember to fact check.


----------



## Travis Ragin

Joby Becker said:


> 2 Of them were ended by the girls' older brothers, both of whom had several white GF each...one was ended by the girl's father, and that girl was 24 yrs old at the time. go figure. In all cases I can say the factor was race, because that is what I was told.


In the first two cases,it's possible that the *factor* was because you weren't man enough in those instances to tell those older brothers to stay out your business and let the young lady decide who she wanted to be with.



I'm figuring--in the third case,it absolutely can't be denied that strong father's do have considerable influence on their baby girl's lives..but still,that young lady was twenty four years of age,she *could and would* take off with you to live in the jungles of Borneo,*IF she wanted to...*


So actually..Race was not the factor in *any* of these cases causing your relationship(s) to *end*.Respectfully.


t


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## Joby Becker

Travis Ragin said:


> In the first two cases,it's possible that the *factor* was because you weren't man enough in those instances to tell those older brothers to stay out your business and let the young lady decide who she wanted to be with.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm figuring--in the third case,it absolutely can't be denied that strong father's do have considerable influence on their baby girl's lives..but still,that young lady was twenty four years of age,she *could and would* take off with you to live in the jungles of Borneo,*IF she wanted to...*
> 
> 
> Race was not the factor in *any* of these cases causing your relationship(s) to *end*.Respectfully.
> 
> 
> t


it was dating Travis not true love obviously. Two were a coupla of months and 1 was about 5 months. 

I would say that the pressure that had to do with race that was put on the girls from their family members was certainly a factor, as that is what I was told by them, considering that tears were shed, and "it will just never work out" was said, even with some protesting by me....and the fact that I was told that the fact that I was white was the issue, I think race was the issue.

Of the 3 girls I was only allowed in one of the homes, no one directly said anything to me about it, aside from the girls I got the stink eye for sure. But aside from that, everyone was quasi respectful towards me in my presence at least. No real reason for me to try to force my way into someone's house and confront someone's older brothers in a dating situation, but yes you are right I also just walked away fairly easily, not my business to get in the middle of family members, especially after the girls also did not think it was worth the effort after issues for them arose within their families.

I also walked away from a relationship with a Pentacostal white girl whose mother thought I was the devil LOL...and sent her crazy brother to attempt to confront me and break into my house when the 23 yr old girl did not call her mom for 2 days, while she was living with me. She told me her mom thought that I killed her and was hiding the body in my house..

In that case I told her "this is not going to work out"...

I have no interest in causing trouble for others, or getting trouble from others,,,

I see your point though, but still stick to mine as well. 

One of the younger girls did end up moving away and marrying a white guy a few years later..the other one got pregnant shortly after we split up..I ended up teaching her child how to swim..

The older one moved to Cleveland OH after about a year and became a nurse.

Overall I suppose that the issue was weakness of conviction, by either party, to overcome the familial racial opinions...


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## Kevin Cyr

Joby Becker said:


> Dewon, what is it gonna take, do you think, to move forward on the racial divide?
> 
> Everyone is thinking this incident will lead to the conversation and move forward to some solutions. It is very easy to talk about starting the conversation, but when does the actual conversation really start, with a real effort to move forward?


Don't know what it will take, but it just isn't happening...that's just the way it is and always will be.....been the same for far too long....some move forward but not all...


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## Jessica Kromer

susan tuck said:


> I'm aware of all that. The reason I used Urban Dictionary is because that's what the Conservative Tree House linked as if that was some kind of proof. My point was not to educate everyone on kids and drugs these days but to show that the Conservative Tree House quote was nothing but a nonsensical opinion piece, a hatchet job done on a dead kid, with no actual evidence to support it's "theories".
> 
> As you mentioned, any fruit drink can be used, also sprite and other carbonated sodas are also used. Any fruit candy can be used. It's so broad, it's crazy in my opinion, to assume Trayvon Martin purchased those items for the purpose of mixing them with cough syrup, many kids eat candy and drink pop with no intention of getting high. I think the only way to logically conclude bad intent would be if there was evidence of cough syrup, either in his possession or in his system, neither of which there was.
> 
> In fact, and as I mentioned in the post you quoted, I have yet to see any actual FB entry from Trayvon Martin regarding anything even related to cough syrup or codeine, though it's often stated as an accepted fact in op ed pieces. I did spend a couple hours trying to find any actual proof of the claims made in the Conservative Tree House piece but could find nothing.
> 
> When I read these hatchet jobs couched in terms to make people believe what they spew is fact, I am reminded again to "consider the source" and also "garbage in garbage out". The Internet is such a great tool, but at the same time, you still have to remember to fact check.


Until you said "Conservative Tree House" I never knew what that was... I was going on ONLY what you said there... Since, quite frankly, it appeared that you were making the point that the stuff he bought were NOT ingredients that would be used for Lean, and you sited a site that did NOT list Watermelon juice and Skittles as ingredients, I felt the need to point out that these items ARE used and regularly.

Trayvon was a punk kid as many young teenagers are. I do emergency foster care and have kids like this come in and out of my house regularly. Of all races; hispanic, black, white and mixed of all three. This area in general does not have issues with races (my BIL is black as well as three cousins and their kids and I won't go into the hispanics in the family 'cause that is just "normal" in this area). I feel that he was very likely acting "off" and as a result drew suspicion. I also feel that he was likely AS culpable as GZ in what happened, and that I would also have likely used deadly forces "in the moment" if I were being held down and beat up. It royally SUCKS that TM had to die, and it makes me seriously think about what I tell my boys and my fosters.


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> I dated 3 black girls in my life and I can say that none of them ended well, ended by family racial pressure. None of it from my family. 2 Of them were ended by the girls' older brothers, both of whom had several white GF each...one was ended by the girl's father, and that girl was 24 yrs old at the time. go figure. In all cases I can say the factor was race, because that is what I was told.


And boys and girls, that's not a story you will hear on Mr Rogers every day, if ever.  Joby, your stories are weird. Your thought process is twisted and kinda funny. I guess that's one of the reasons why I like you. I don't know about any of that other stuff though but um, thanks for sharing?

Dewon, I don't know about that friend thing either. Do white people have some sort of color coded friend quota? I'm mixed race so don't go thinkin' that I was asking because I wanted to keep up with the Joneses or anything like that.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> And boys and girls, that's not a story you will hear on Mr Rogers every day, if ever.  Joby, your stories are weird. Your thought process is twisted and kinda funny. I guess that's one of the reasons why I like you. I don't know about any of that other stuff though but um, thanks for sharing?
> 
> Dewon, I don't know about that friend thing either. Do white people have some sort of color coded friend quota? I'm mixed race so don't go thinkin' that I was asking because I wanted to keep up with the Joneses or anything like that.


Just trying to contribute here.


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> Just trying to contribute here.


Indeed, and that also is another reason why I like you. Your intentions are always in or come from the right place.


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## susan tuck

Jessica Kromer said:


> Until you said "Conservative Tree House" I never knew what that was... I was going on ONLY what you said there... Since, quite frankly, it appeared that you were making the point that the stuff he bought were NOT ingredients that would be used for Lean, and you sited a site that did NOT list Watermelon juice and Skittles as ingredients, I felt the need to point out that these items ARE used and regularly.
> 
> Trayvon was a punk kid as many young teenagers are. I do emergency foster care and have kids like this come in and out of my house regularly. Of all races; hispanic, black, white and mixed of all three. This area in general does not have issues with races (my BIL is black as well as three cousins and their kids and I won't go into the hispanics in the family 'cause that is just "normal" in this area). I feel that he was very likely acting "off" and as a result drew suspicion. I also feel that he was likely AS culpable as GZ in what happened, and that I would also have likely used deadly forces "in the moment" if I were being held down and beat up. It royally SUCKS that TM had to die, and it makes me seriously think about what I tell my boys and my fosters.


*Sorry for any confusion Jessica, but if you look at my original post that you quoted, you will note that I inlcuded the quote from Kevin Cyr's post, to which I was responding (see below). Note that if you click on the word "lean" in the below quote, it will take you to Urban Dictionary, which is why I copied and pasted the info from Urban Dictionary. Not to belabor the point, but perhaps this will clarify for you the reason for my post and why I used Urban Dictionary.:*



Kevin Cyr said:


> Twitter was in meltdown when the verdict came Saturday night in the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin trial. Facebookers like this one were among many writing their fair share of posts on the trial and its outcome.
> One online site in particular captured considerable attention – well over 100,000 visits a day and a public post-trial thank-you from Robert Zimmerman, father of the younger Zimmerman: “I have thanked Mark Omara and Don West. Now I would like to extend our heartfelt appreciation to you, our friends at CTH.”
> The Conservative Treehouse (aka “CTH” and “The Last Refuge”) earned Zimmerman’s grateful acknowledgement because of its extraordinary investigative work undertaken throughout the saga, particularly in obtaining through Freedom of Information Act and publishing public records that revealed the corruption and racism connected to the charges and the trial itself, naming who was involved regardless of how high up the political food chain it went, in what the investigative bloggers called “The Zimmerman Railroading.”
> Among its reports, Trayvon Martin’s drug use, explaining how the Skittles and Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail drink he carried that night are ingredients that, when mixed with dextromethorphan (DXM) cough syrup, create “Lean”, a concocted high which can cause psychosis and aggression over the longer term. According to the autopsy report, Martin’s liver showed damage consistent with DXM abuse.


*If there is a way I could have been more clear, let me know, but I think this kind of confusion is bound to happen in these threads with multiple topics and cross conversations going on! *


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## Joby Becker

Susan, do you expect that the Facebook posts would still be up on facebook? if they were in fact once there?


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## Jessica Kromer

Nonono... I saw what you were quoting... BUT while you were very clearly quoting again and again the Urban Dictionary (and other assorted links) versions of what Lean and its likenesses are as defined, you were also very clearly implying that BECAUSE Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice was not listed (as well as Skittles) that they were NOT ingredients. Any and all fruit based liquids and candies can be used for Lean. 

Had this teenager NOT have discussed not only the ingredients, but also how awesome they are I would have disregarded the whole thing. But taken into context, the reality of what this guy was accustomed to doing SHOULD be a material fact. 

To put it another way, if my 14 year old stepson was regularly talking about the ingredients and highs that one can get from Lean, and then he had the ingredients FOR lean in his possession along with THC in his system, I would have no choice BUT to draw the most logical conclusion. He is using. Trev could deny it all he wants... Same with weed. he can say the baggie is his friend's (  ) or that the pipe is for flavored tobacco. But if he is on his phone or Facebook page talking about where to get weed or prices or what ever, I HAVE to (as a responsible parent) assume that he is using and breaking the rules. 

And while it may seem like my opinion is a nod to he conservatives, you should know that my (adopted at 11) brother was arrested by my ex-husband for accessory to murder. He was the fist behind the leader of the Mexican Mafia here in my home town. We all knew it, and all hated it, but when Ray became an adult, there was no choice for our family other than to say, "good luck with you choice..." At that point you are not gonna change his mind, you can only tell them that you will be there to support, but do not agree. Ray is my brother and I love him, and visit him in jail when I take his kids, but his choices led him to where he is today. Did Trayvon deserve to die? No. But his choices are what led him to the conflict that took his life. Right or wrong, good or bad. GZ could have also made different choices, but I don't see his as any worse than TM, only different. Should GZ have been the one to die because he was in his 20's rather than his teens? There are others I would MUCH rather see made into an example and scapegoat for the anger felt today. But the media and some political leaders made THIS the case to discuss... I wish they had chosen a more clear cut case....


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## susan tuck

Joby Becker said:


> Susan, do you expect that the Facebook posts would still be up on facebook? if they were in fact once there?


No, I'm saying I've personally been unable to find corroboration by an independent, credible source, of what Conservative TreeHouse said had been posted on FB, or any of their other claims made by "Conservative Treehouse" in the quote provided.


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## susan tuck

Jessica Kromer said:


> Nonono... I saw what you were quoting... BUT while you were very clearly quoting again and again the Urban Dictionary (and other assorted links) versions of what Lean and its likenesses are as defined, you were also very clearly implying that BECAUSE Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice was not listed (as well as Skittles) that they were NOT ingredients. Any and all fruit based liquids and candies can be used for Lean.
> 
> Had this teenager NOT have discussed not only the ingredients, but also how awesome they are I would have disregarded the whole thing. But taken into context, the reality of what this guy was accustomed to doing SHOULD be a material fact.
> 
> To put it another way, if my 14 year old stepson was regularly talking about the ingredients and highs that one can get from Lean, and then he had the ingredients FOR lean in his possession along with THC in his system, I would have no choice BUT to draw the most logical conclusion. He is using. Trev could deny it all he wants... Same with weed. he can say the baggie is his friend's (  ) or that the pipe is for flavored tobacco. But if he is on his phone or Facebook page talking about where to get weed or prices or what ever, I HAVE to (as a responsible parent) assume that he is using and breaking the rules.
> 
> And while it may seem like my opinion is a nod to he conservatives, you should know that my (adopted at 11) brother was arrested by my ex-husband for accessory to murder. He was the fist behind the leader of the Mexican Mafia here in my home town. We all knew it, and all hated it, but when Ray became an adult, there was no choice for our family other than to say, "good luck with you choice..." At that point you are not gonna change his mind, you can only tell them that you will be there to support, but do not agree. Ray is my brother and I love him, and visit him in jail when I take his kids, but his choices led him to where he is today. Did Trayvon deserve to die? No. But his choices are what led him to the conflict that took his life. Right or wrong, good or bad. GZ could have also made different choices, but I don't see his as any worse than TM, only different. Should GZ have been the one to die because he was in his 20's rather than his teens? There are others I would MUCH rather see made into an example and scapegoat for the anger felt today. But the media and some political leaders made THIS the case to discuss... I wish they had chosen a more clear cut case....


If you feel I implied there is no way that those ingredients could be used, then my apologies for not being clearer, however Jessica, I know my own intent, better than you do, believe it or not, and that was not my intent.

My point is there is no clear cut evidence Trayvon purchased Skittles and Ice Tea for the purpose of getting high that night. He had no cough syrup in his possession, there was none in his system as verified by the toxicology report, and there is no evidence of liver damage caused by cough syrup in the autopsy report, despite the claims made by Conservative Tree House. Oh and as far as the THC, please note it was trace amounts, he most likely had not smoked any pot within 24 hours of being killed. Aside from that, pot doesn't make anyone violent. It's more of a make love not war kind of drug.

As far as what happened that night, I will once more state my original premis, and then I truly am done with this mess:

Had GZ not had a gun, he would never have chased Trayvon on foot, and both would be alive, safe and sound. I am not against guns or CWPs, but I do think having that gun made GZ feel braver than he should have, and consequently he got out of his car on that dark and rainy night, and followed Trayvon. I think there is very good reason why most Neighborhood Watch programs discourage their volunteers from carrying guns, or even outright do not allow volunteers to carry guns. You actually have no idea if Trayvon felt cornered and felt he had no other choice but to fight, nor do you know who threw the first punch, and neither do I. The difference is I leave room for the possibility, especially since there is no evidence either way, other than GZs word.


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## susan tuck

Jessica Kromer said:


> Nonono... I saw what you were quoting... BUT while you were very clearly quoting again and again the Urban Dictionary (and other assorted links) versions of what Lean and its likenesses are as defined, you were also very clearly implying that BECAUSE Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice was not listed (as well as Skittles) that they were NOT ingredients. Any and all fruit based liquids and candies can be used for Lean.....


You know what - now I'm getting pissed off:

1. If you saw what I was quoting then why did you say you had no clue who Conservative TreeHouse was until I mentioned it? It was in the quote I included how could you miss that?

2. I copied the passage in the Urban Dictionary link which is where the link in the CTH quote took me. In that passage "sizzurp" was also mentioned so I then included a link and a quote to "sizzurp" in the Urban Dictionary to Sizzurp. 

3. The other links and passages didn't have a goddamn thing to do with the candy/juice ingredients in Lean or Sizzurp or whatever the hell you want to call it. The other links were to the autopsy and toxicology report, both of which report traces of THC, but nothing else. 

You best believe if I say to you that's what I meant then guess what - that's what I meant. Where do you get off trying to tell me what my intent was? WTF do you think you are?

I am so done with this, it's gone from the ridiculous to the bizarre.


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## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> No, I'm saying I've personally been unable to find corroboration by an independent, credible source, of what Conservative TreeHouse said had been posted on FB, or any of their other claims made by "Conservative Treehouse" in the quote provided.


not saying that these are real, but they are out there. I tried to view them but they are gone..


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## Jessica Kromer

susan tuck said:


> You know what - now I'm getting pissed off


 Really? Why? 'Cause I disagree with you?


susan tuck said:


> 1. If you saw what I was quoting then why did you say you had no clue who Conservative TreeHouse was until I mentioned it? It was in the quote I included how could you miss that?


 Welll.... 'Cause I was skimming the posts, read yours, then went back and read Kevin's. No biggie, but when I clicked on HIS posts, I READ the info, didn't really concern myself with who said it. Was more concerned with the info therein.



susan tuck said:


> 2. I copied the passage in the Urban Dictionary link which is where the link in the CTH quote took me. In that passage "sizzurp" was also mentioned so I then included a link and a quote to "sizzurp" in the Urban Dictionary to Sizzurp.


Saw that....But while you proceeded to quote passage after passage (from the same site) and relayed with authority that the two items that Trayvon had on him were in fact NOT ingredients of Lean, you disregarded the fact that they ARE ingredients. Here, let me refresh your memory:


susan tuck said:


> As to the infamous cough syrup concoction, "Lean", also mentioned above, when I click on the link provided, here's what comes up:
> 
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lean
> 
> -Promethazine w/Codeine VC <- Sizzurp (active ingredient)
> -Original Sprite Soda <- Mixing ingredient (although different flavors of sprite are now used, such as sprite remix)
> -Jolly rancher candy <- Flavor additive
> I don't see any mention of "watermelon ice tea and skittles" does anyone else?





susan tuck said:


> I saw Urban Dictionary also mentioned something called "sizzurp", so I checked that out too, thinking it might have the secret ingredients listed:
> 
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sizzurp
> 
> Promethazine w/Codeine syrup
> Any fruit flavored soda
> A jolly rancher
> 
> Nope, no watermelon ice tea or skittles there either.





susan tuck said:


> The watermelon ice tea and skittles combo isn't mentioned in the Urban Dictionary recipe for "Purple Drank" either.


You IMPLY with condensation (or is it creative license) that anyone who thinks watermelon juice (not iced tea, but that is a whole 'nuther topic) and Skittles are ingredients is wrong. They are in fact two of three options. Most that are involved in the drug culture will tell you that, and quite frankly if you need to be using a source for your research such as Urban Dictionary to validify your case then you have little business commenting on it. Hell, kids don't even need to cut the DXM to use it for a high. Here is a post writen by a 16 year old who stole two bottles of Delsym to see how it affected him. He describes the feeling and is then instructed on how to use it properly as well as the correct dose. THIS is the culture that we deal with today. Kids are not worse than ever, but they have MUCH more info at their fingertips and more options available.

In today's world off label use for a high is a very real danger. I have to keep EVERY drug in the house under lock and key. It sucks that this is what it has come to, but it is very real. 

I am NOT saying that Trayvon deserved to die. I do truly feel that he was failed a LONG time ago and made some piss poor decisions since then and became a late teenage, very nearly a legal man, delinquent. This does not mean he was not loved, or is not now missed, nor does it mean he should have died, but his CHOICES as much as GZ's led him up to that point. 




susan tuck said:


> 3. The other links and passages didn't have a goddamn thing to do with the candy/juice ingredients in Lean or Sizzurp or whatever the hell you want to call it. The other links were to the autopsy and toxicology report, both of which report traces of THC, but nothing else.


 Wellll..... I didn't refer to that section of your post, nor did it have anything to do with my point.... What are you getting at?



susan tuck said:


> You best believe if I say to you that's what I meant then guess what - that's what I meant. Where do you get off trying to tell me what my intent was? WTF do you think you are?


Who the fuk do you thing you are?l Seriously? This is how you deal with conflict? 

Let me tell you who I am. As a child I was abused and molested by those other than my birth mother and father. As a teenager I made some piss poor decisions with drugs, delinquency, and had been arrested. As an adult I made some GOOD choices and became a responsible, contributing woman that can help kids that are as bad off or worse than I was. Race does not matter, I get them all. Many have no interest in making good choices and are perfectly fine following their mentors onto the path of users and have as much chance of ending up in jail as they do as successful adults. Many need only to be given the chance. Trayvon was one of these kids. Could he have been fixed, we'll never know, but he was definitely going down the wrong path for that... And there are a million more just like him that get no attention at all from the media. So Susan, who the fuk are you? 



susan tuck said:


> I am so done with this, it's gone from the ridiculous to the bizarre.


 So those that disagree with you go from "ridiculous to the bizarre." Trying to discredit your opposition because you get angry makes your position that much weaker, not stronger.

You (and many others) are guilty of many logical fallacies, but for THIS topic you are making an argument from silence; your conclusion is based on the LACK of evidence, rather than the existence of it. You are also guilty of a continuum fallacy. Just because something is imprecise, does not make it false. Quite frankly Trayvon had shown himself to be a drug user, he asked a friend for a codine hook up, and talked about Lean and his experiences with it. With that evidence, the two items in his possession have a bit more meaning. He did not need to die for these stupid choices, but they all played a part of his character and why/where he was that fateful night. Perhaps even his disposition that night. Don't know.... But 6 jurors that heard a hell of a lot more than we did from the media came to a decision...


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## Chris McDonald

I try not to follow the news all to close due to how twisted it is by time we get to see what they want us to see or read what they want us to read. But I had these links sent to me and found them interesting. 
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/06/getting_the_facts_straight_in_the_zimmerman_case.html 
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/06/what_the_media_choose_not_to_know_about_trayvon.html


And I want to post this because I found it funny as hell. Bad taste but funny as hell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm5JGX2or-s


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## Chris McDonald

Nancy Jocoy said:


> She had left and went to THEIR former house to retrieve some of HER clothes thinking he was not there. Bad judgement. Kind of like the bad judgement Zimmerman had for ignoring the police direction to stay in his car.
> 
> She did not kill or even injury anyone.


 
I don’t think it is really thought that Zimmerman ignored anything? The reading of the links I attached are interesting and the noise of the wind on the phone does kind of make things sound as they say. But the truth is we will never really know. As wrong as the whole thing is and we can list “shoulda coulda wouldas” all day long for both guys involved in the end I think the jury did what they should have. 
As for the woman that received the 20 year sentence for firing of a shot. I think the judge did what was supposed to have been done as the law says. I just don’t think I agree with the law. Firing a round off during an assault is a mandatory 20 years. All that an assault consists of is the husband saying he was scared and him saying he was begging for his life. Or a few other little things, I saw some on tv explain how this sentence came about. She fit the bill to receive 20 years. 
I guess if Florida is going to allow for concealed carry and a stand your ground law it is going to need to b strict about people firing there weapons off. I would think you need to really know the law if your going to carry or have access to a firearm and you better be sure as hell about the repercussions if your going to fire it?


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## Chris McDonald

Chris McDonald said:


> I don’t think it is really thought that Zimmerman ignored anything? The reading of the links I attached are interesting and the noise of the wind on the phone does kind of make things sound as they say. But the truth is we will never really know. As wrong as the whole thing is and we can list “shoulda coulda wouldas” all day long for both guys involved in the end I think the jury did what they should have.
> As for the woman that received the 20 year sentence for firing of a shot. I think the judge did what was supposed to have been done as the law says. I just don’t think I agree with the law. Firing a round off during an assault is a mandatory 20 years. All that an assault consists of is the husband saying he was scared and him saying he was begging for his life. Or a few other little things, I saw some on tv explain how this sentence came about. She fit the bill to receive 20 years.
> I guess if Florida is going to allow for concealed carry and a stand your ground law it is going to need to b strict about people firing there weapons off. I would think you need to really know the law if your going to carry or have access to a firearm and you better be sure as hell about the repercussions if your going to fire it?


I did not read all the posts so I might have repeated something… or something like that or something .. you know?


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## kerry engels

I found this interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls#at=601


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