# book review



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

have started reading a book about the aus. Kelpie by Tony Parsons. has anyone read this book. i don't own a Kelpie but it sure is good reading a working dog book by someone who has spent a lifetime breeding n workin a breed they are passionate about.

i will type in the beginning quote later - it could be about any true working dog breed. also plan to read that GSD book by Von Steph...anyone know the title and if it is still in print? amazon??

anyone know of any other books of this calibre, don't care what breed its all interesting.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Why do I suspect that someone saying on a working dog forum _... "that GSD book by Von Steph? Anyone know the title?" _ is trolling -- maybe out of boredom? :lol:





But just in case: 

The German Shepherd Dog
(in Word and Picture)




Reprints are pretty easy to get.

http://www.workingdogs.com/book008.htm


Or you might want to go this route....

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000J2N00Q/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used


----------



## Carlos Machado (Dec 28, 2008)

Amazon is charging through the nose for the 1950 8th edition which is edited the British decided to exclude all mention of the Wolf in the breeding of the German Shepherd dog so I would never pay 200 to 450 for a book missing important information. Now 75 dollars for the 1927 reprint is the way to go.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thats great info about the edit Carlos, will definately make sure i get the right one. wonder how many people bought the book n didn't know that - i would feel ripped off.

Connie relax there is not a hidden agenda to everything, sometimes a simple question is just that. start reading too much into everything you might get accused of the one doing the "trolling". BTW thanks for the link i appreciatte any actual help - n you know i need it


----------



## Carlos Machado (Dec 28, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> thats great info about the edit Carlos, will definately make sure i get the right one. wonder how many people bought the book n didn't know that - i would feel ripped off


I had a discussion about 6 months ago and from the response of disbelief most people didn't believe that there were 4 wolves in the first stud book and many crosses including Max Von Stephanitz favorite dog was 1/4 wolf and the most used stud. He asks the future breeders to not add any more Wolf as enough has been added. The British and Americans called them the Alsatian wolf dog then the name was changed back in 1977.
here is the original post with some links
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/how-far-we-really-13844/index4.html
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/how-far-we-really-13844/index3.html


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

i make trophies..there are only 5-6 dogs available for figures..one is the alsatian dog...looks like a GSD in plastic..LOL


----------



## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Peter
bet that Kelpie book is really interesting. I had one up to a year ago. His sire was an import. That dog was a working fool from the time I got him at 4 mo old. It was all instinct. No training on my part. Definitely "eye" dogs and phenominal to watch when they run over the backs of sheep in crowded pens in order to turn them around or separate a few from the bunch. Wild colors, too, altho mine was the typical black and tan. People always mistook him, because of his coloring, for a dobe cross. 

Feel free to tell us any highlights of your literary discoveries


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

cheers i am a slow reader so might be awhile. will definately type in the intro soon. there must be other good breed specific historical books people know of. there is a mal one around but reports are it is not that informative on the history / deveopment of the breed.

never owned a Kelpie but from what i have learned they should justifiably be considered one of the worlds super-breeds. the breed nearly lost credibility internationally when US farmers imported show champions to the states n wondered why they didn't work. the sitauation was fixed when they got a batch of actual working dogs now the numbers are esacalating in the states n world-wide.

definately not best AKC trial dog but for hard work in yards they leave the BC behind eg the backing on stock like you said BC just doesn't compare.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> cheers i am a slow reader so might be awhile. will definately type in the intro soon. there must be other good breed specific historical books people know of. there is a mal one around but reports are it is not that informative on the history / deveopment of the breed.
> 
> never owned a Kelpie but from what i have learned they should justifiably be considered one of the worlds super-breeds. the breed nearly lost credibility internationally when US farmers imported show champions to the states n wondered why they didn't work. the sitauation was fixed when they got a batch of actual working dogs now the numbers are esacalating in the states n world-wide.
> 
> definately not best AKC trial dog but for hard work in yards they leave the BC behind eg the backing on stock like you said BC just doesn't compare.


Do you have the latest Parson book? I have heard that it is great...but I have only seen it available from Fishpond in Australia...and it is an expensive book!

I would love to know which book you have.

I have my first Kelpie, she will be 2 in July. It is amazing to see how natural she works! I have also heard people say they are not "guard dogs" Well, sneak into my house and you will find out differently  Maybe she learned that from my Beaucerons...LOL

Just an FYI...the Australian Working Kelpie is not recognized by AKC. There is much debate amongst the factions on whether AKC recognition is good for the breed...or not[-X

As far as I could find out, there is no US breed club for the Bench Kelpie.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

book is Parsons, at home so have to wait to check edition, i only just bought it so i expect it to be latest edition or will take it back. how many editions are there? appreciatte if you reply me that info ASAP so i can exchange if needed. 

yes very expensive AUS $150, a lot considering i don't even own the breed. but hey to me a workin dog is a workin dog. 

what proof is there that AKC recogntion does anything to enhance the working attributes of the breed. hell even AKC sports has changed breeds to match score sheets at possible/arguable loss of other traits. 

my curr line is not registered for this very reason, a breeder already approached like "if you can breed big white dogs with splashes of colour n 2 blue eyes we can sell the pups for thousands of dollars - GGGRRRR me punching walls now. these people don't get it n they never will. they are just smart enough to know they are the stupidest people around.

Kellie please if you love the breed resist/oppose the AKC, keep em as a workin dogs - i'll beg if i have to. the facts are in, how much proof do you want

BTW have you played at any agility, Kelpies rock, some owners are showing up at the venues around the world with good results.

cheers


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> .. there is not a hidden agenda to everything, sometimes a simple question is just that. start reading too much into everything you might get accused of the one doing the "trolling".


You mean sometimes a cigar is just a cigar? 

You're batting about a hundred so far in the "non-trolling" department, but I'll keep a reasonably open mind. :lol:


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> book is Parsons, at home so have to wait to check edition, i only just bought it so i expect it to be latest edition or will take it back. how many editions are there? appreciatte if you reply me that info ASAP so i can exchange if needed.
> 
> yes very expensive AUS $150, a lot considering i don't even own the breed. but hey to me a workin dog is a workin dog.
> 
> ...


There have been several different books by Tony Parsons. The latest, out last year, is some where around 700 pages. I have put in the Birthday request for it LOL

You are preaching to the choir\\/ I would really like to see the CH be required to have an Advanced working title to even be considered for the CH. That will NEVER happen.

I have seen what the Beaucerons have gone through...now if a dog has the PT, they are considered "working" I am pretty certain, with the right sheep, a Chihuahua could get its PT](*,)

No agility...strictly stock work. But maybe in the future...only so many hours in the day!

Maybe you will be inspired to get a Australian Working Kelpie


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Connie i actually don't get the cigar or batting metaphor at all?? but i think i get yr drift, don't troll. thanks got it


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

CH, PT, ??? i'm sure that means something about dog titles perhaps??

maybe Kelpie one day, there are some good breeders around here. a bit maxed, 1 hound n GSD pup on way, yeah book i got is huge. will pass on details to you tomorrow. 

cheers


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> CH, PT, ??? i'm sure that means something about dog titles perhaps??
> 
> maybe Kelpie one day, there are some good breeders around here. a bit maxed, 1 hound n GSD pup on way, yeah book i got is huge. will pass on details to you tomorrow.
> 
> cheers


yes...AKC CH= breed/conformation/beauty champion
PT= pre-trial tested. One of the very most basic herding tests

sounds good!


----------



## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Kelly
would love to see pic of your little girl. We lost ours last year at 13. He had a seizure or stroke one Sunday and was neurological after - not getting up, falling over, wobbling, so made decision to PTS. Buried in back pasture. He had North American Kelpie Assn papers which never really meant anything. At least to us, just was a working fool and lovely personality. Never had to leash him, always walked behind, swinging back and forth behind you. Smartest dog I think we have ever owned.

Please post pics! Keep reading, Peter. You can key us in on all the important parts. Don't know what $150 AUS translates to in US but darn expensive book!


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

still trying to get my head around the show concept, so a champion GSD is the one that looks most like a GSD, presumably compared to a written standard about looks eg the best is the most standard looking. 


what about the one where differnt breeds compete at shows against each other how is the best looking dog decided when they compare a greyhound and a St. Bernard to see which is the best dog?

actually don't answer - some things i don't want to know.


----------



## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> still trying to get my head around the show concept, so a champion GSD is the one that looks most like a GSD, presumably compared to a written standard about looks eg the best is the most standard looking.
> 
> 
> what about the one where differnt breeds compete at shows against each other how is the best looking dog decided when they compare a greyhound and a St. Bernard to see which is the best dog?
> ...


Indeed, Peter. Some things are better left unanswered, ie, American show line GSD vs German working lines. 

Kelly, I agree with Laney, please do post some pics of your Kelpie and tell us more. At some point down the road, I do intend to get a Kelpie strictly for farm work. At present, have 2 ACDs and an Aussie/BCX, as well as the GSDs but they dont work my stock. Any info on Kelpie lines you are familiar with would be helpful.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter said;
"what about the one where differnt breeds compete at shows against each other how is the best looking dog decided when they compare a greyhound and a St. Bernard to see which is the best dog?"


They are each being compared to their own standard, not the other breed. Does the greyhound fit it's standard better then the St. Bernard fit's it's standard.
Of course the politics too! :twisted:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi Kellie, yep i got the 700 page (exactly) version, figure that is the latest one. you might want to only skim read some of the training sections - with respect to a man that has been on top of his game since 1944, longer than most folks here have been living for, i think the modern trainer has moved on a bit in some training techniques. 

the history n insight into the lines is comprehensive n detailed. the shifts in selection is well documented with the impact of sport - 3 sheep trialling and yard competitions - is interesting in the context of a practical farm dog n not always necessarily beneficial. 

also 3 chapters on the north american experience with names n lines of some of the best breeders in the states. you americans screwed up big time buying show champions for work purposes but that was rectified somewhat in the late 70's and the breed has been gaining ground ever since for good reason. 

there is a lot of angst in the book about the negative impact of the show world in destroying the breed with their "true purebred" dogs. could just as well be any other working breed - these people need to be called on their destructive practices worldwide.

according to the details in the book i am only an hours drive from the author (at time of writing anyways) so am keen to go visit the man. haven't really got an excuse to rock up to his place as i don't even own a Kelpie n i got a habit of scaring the sh*t out of people - never figured out why that is. i would take any opportunity to visit somoene that has spent a lifetime doing anything at the top level, these people are typically rare as they are passionate, humble n knowledgable etc.

hey if the book is to expensive for any WDF members i would be happy to UPS it to you if i knew i would get it back, hell i can prolly get you a signed copy - working dog groupies tehe


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Bob i can get how you would get a best St. Bernard etc n win that comp but if it is already the best St. B what does it mean when it goes for another title against other breeds when compared to its own standard?? isn't that double dipping?? i think imight not undertsand the strucure of the title or something cause it still doesn't make sense to my brain.

secondly as what i have seen the show people seem to breed for extreme type eg the most sloping back GSD, the most rounded nose bull terrier, the shortest leg daschund etc (refer 1/2 dog 1/2 frog)whats more improtant being a statistical outlier as it seems compared to the standard or to be the most representative which would be the mean or most normal dog (statistically). don't want to get into a debate on mean limit theory but hell seems to be no logic.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

There are a few other photos of Gracie in my album here on WDF.

Peter, you are lucky to be so close! I certainly would pop over. It is not often you get a chance to sit down with a breed legend. Especially a working dog man!

I had "Kelpie" fever and was returning a ram that we borrowed for the season. And there in the round pen was a littler of Kelpie pups:-o I really wanted a female...and lucky me, there was one female available. She was the most spastic crazy one of the bunch! and I thought that's the one for me 

I don't know too much about her bloodlines...met the dam and sire and watched them both work. That was really all that mattered to me. If I was looking for a breeding female, I would do more research...and may in the future. Time will tell.

There is something about the way a Kelpie looks at you , that reaches down into your soul...it is a little creepy sometimes..LOL


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

"There is something about the way a Kelpie looks at you , that reaches down into your soul...it is a little creepy sometimes..LOL"

haha Tony P does mention that the cruelest thing you can do to a Kelpie is ignore it.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Bob i can get how you would get a best St. Bernard etc n win that comp but if it is already the best St. B what does it mean when it goes for another title against other breeds when compared to its own standard?? isn't that double dipping?? i think imight not undertsand the strucure of the title or something cause it still doesn't make sense to my brain.
> 
> secondly as what i have seen the show people seem to breed for extreme type eg the most sloping back GSD, the most rounded nose bull terrier, the shortest leg daschund etc (refer 1/2 dog 1/2 frog)whats more improtant being a statistical outlier as it seems compared to the standard or to be the most representative which would be the mean or most normal dog (statistically). don't want to get into a debate on mean limit theory but hell seems to be no logic.



I did the dog shows for 10-15 yrs. It's all about status and winning. I'll drop you a PM because show "stuff" doesn't really belong on a working dog forum.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Bob thats 10-15 years of your life lost . 

have read the PM thanks, n yes lets not talk of such things on the WDF. 

i thought the WDF would be the sworn enemy n most vocal lobby group on the planet to stop the breed destroying madness of these %&**#@'s, does the WDF lack a pair or something.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro
i thought the WDF would be the sworn enemy n most vocal lobby group on the planet to stop the breed destroying madness of these %&**#@'s said:


> At this point it is like trying to put out a range fire with a garden hose.
> 
> At least te WDF is a place for like minded folks to find each other. In the breed clubs, if you are a working dog person, you are odd man out for sure.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Kellie given the organised stucture of this forum and (despite all the s%#t talk) the number of passionate, dedicated knowledgable people in it from all over, i would like to think there is potential for much more.

i was thinking about how many dog generations n costs it would take to get a decent line of dogs locked in and the amount of hard culling decisions involved etc - the time involved is longer than the average lifetime of most kennels which is long term bad for the breeds, with the interwebs instant communication, AI, modern transport, organised elite sport for monitoring performance, vet science etc seems logical that breeding programs would become more globally integrated n breeds should be producing something better than what our forefathers gave us - a lot of opinion around here for the most part suggests our working breeds are declining in quality???

i'm new to this but it doesn't add up, i will figure it out though.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Why do I suspect that someone saying on a working dog forum _... "that GSD book by Von Steph? Anyone know the title?" _ is trolling -- maybe out of boredom? :lol:


Kudos Connie! It seems your BS radar was spot on! Impressive ;-)


----------

