# early Puppy Workouts...



## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Here are some puppy foundation workouts done on a 9-10 week old pup.

Agility/Obedience
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2q3ugck

Article searches. Well, the poor fellow hasn't got a toy, it's just an item I picked from my pocket.
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=42vv2c8

Aggression...
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2zhf5l3

Enjoy!!!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

looks like a nice pup. if i didn't know better, i'd swear i see the handler give the dog a treat on the recall...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

definatly munching on a treat, mystery solved.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

There's also a sleeve for the puppy too, with all the prey movement they use in sport.  Let's not forget dogs will view anything as a 'toy', it doesn't have to be a red bouncy kong. Mine seem to think the household flip flops are theirs.

I agree, very nice, happy pup who's having lots of fun.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> definatly munching on a treat, mystery solved.



Hmmmm, what was I munching at that time?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> There's also a sleeve for the puppy too, with all the prey movement they use in sport.  Let's not forget dogs will view anything as a 'toy', it doesn't have to be a red bouncy kong. Mine seem to think the household flip flops are theirs.
> 
> I agree, very nice, happy pup who's having lots of fun.



The decoy thought of those as well, started doing prey movements like in sports till that pup nicked him in the leg instead of taking his offered sleeve. That's when he realized he must not do that again....


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> The decoy thought of those as well, started doing prey movements like in sports till that pup nicked him in the leg instead of taking his offered sleeve. That's when he realized he must not do that again....


So I take it that was after the camera was turned off then?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So I take it that was after the camera was turned off then?



No Mike, look at the video. Where did the pup strike when the decoy moved sideways and offered the sleeve? Then the decoy warded the dog off, didn't he? that was only when the pup took that extended arm with the sleeve. Then the camera was turned off. 

There was broken skin, not really much, just enough to tell the decoy something... 

There was a sendout after that, but the decoy knew better than putting his sleeved arm parallel to his chest, as commonly done.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I guess I missed that.

High in the chest is an adult dog thing, not a puppy thing. The pup doesn't know what he's supposed to do with a sleeve, n a pup that age shouldn't even be on a sleeve yet. If you are gonna have a decoy do "sport-like" training then at least do it properly. The pup went for the leg because the leg was moving n the decoy was dumb enough to let the pup get it. If you are gonna do prey work with a pup that age then get a rag, or at most a thin tug and tease the pup with it.

Not sure why you titled the video "aggression".


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I always thought that a proper puppy should nip anything that moves (or doesn't move)...

One of the biggest problems for people doing drive work for obedience is getting bit by the dog because other parts of their body is moving. I certainly would not consider this a 'big deal'.

I agree with Mike that what the decoy should have done was proper prey work at least. Even for sports that kind of work would have not been good enough. What was Jeff saying in the other topic? Something to do with active vs. reactive dogs.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I guess I missed that.
> High in the chest is an adult dog thing, not a puppy thing.


I guess it's force of habit, Mike, as I see it quite common when someone wears a sleeve. People here are shorter that with a little bending, it can be quite possible. I offer only an explanation , as I don't work that way too.



> The pup doesn't know what he's supposed to do with a sleeve...


Shouldn't that be? The dog or a pup is there to fight it out, and not to know what he's supposed to do with a sleeve. The decoy then must protect himself with what need be. Unless the pup is only trained to focus and bite on the sleeve, then....



> ..., n a pup that age shouldn't even be on a sleeve yet.


Now, can we agree to disagree here, Mike? If that's a rule, I'm happy to have broken it.



> If you are gonna have a decoy do "sport-like" training then at least do it properly.


I agree, if I knew he was going to move sideways after that agitation switching to a "sport-like" training as you say, I could have warned him and avoided that little "accident". The pup obviously doesn't need that motion to invite him to bite anyway. 



> The pup went for the leg because the leg was moving n the decoy was dumb enough to let the pup get it.


The pup went for the leg because it was the smart thing to do, immobilize the prey then sink his teeth in. That's nature and for me, that was a good sign. As for the decoy, he learned to adjust. That's the important part. If he didn't, that makes him dumb.



> If you are gonna do prey work with a pup that age then get a rag, or at most a thin tug and tease the pup with it.


Tease the pup? You think that pup need to be teased at all? Besides, I don't tease pups, Mike. Methods vary, my objective is what I want to achieve. If I could get the best results (which I do) to suit my purpose without tugs, rags, food or props, why should I bother using them? Plain and simple. 



> Not sure why you titled the video "aggression".


I understand. You work in play, I work otherwise....

Best regards...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OH BULLSHIT,you did nothing in that video except show us that your decoy knows nothing about how to work a dog.

I do agree that the lil bastage doesn't need to be teased to work. So go ahead and send him to me, as this is the first dog I have seen from you that I REALLY LIKE. : P

Why take the thing bigger than my head, when I can get a skinny leg. This is not unusual at all.

The dog was munchin on the treat you had in your hand "Oh mystic one" : P


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

how do you expect us to take all this zen stuff seriously when there's a handler giving the dog a treat after that recall?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> If I could get the best results (which I do) to suit my purpose without tugs, rags, food or props, why should I bother using them? Plain and simple.


ummmmm.....


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## SammyBlondin (Mar 27, 2007)

Although that was way more OB than I personally like to see on a dog that age (and way more prong!) it was still cute... not sure I see the problem with rewaring such a young pup with food?? Anyways, good job!

As for the decoy work.. hmm.. from what can be seen, which is limited, it leaves a lot to be desired! 

Nice pupper, although you may want to look into a new decoy... nice pupper could fast turn into ruined pupper!


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OH BULLSHIT,you did nothing in that video except show us that your decoy knows nothing about how to work a dog.


BULLSHIT, JEFF!!!!! Don't you still get it? THE DECOY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DOGS!!!!!! HE'S NEVER A HELPER IN OUR CASE!!! He's always to act menacingly againts me and my dog during bitework. Let that pup understand that it's the only time he can react aggressively and with brute force, else, he should always remain calm and stable. WORK IS WORK, NOT PLAY. IT'S THE HANDLER WHO WORKS HIS DOG, NOT THAT FREAKING DECOY. Understand? 



> I do agree that the lil bastage doesn't need to be teased to work. So go ahead and send him to me, as this is the first dog I have seen from you that I REALLY LIKE. : P


Oh, Jeff. Sorry to disappoint you but this lil bastage is a circus dog too. In fact, the very first one. He showed all other pups what pups can do, breaking all myths that pups can't be worked early. Surprised? Oh you'll surely love my other pups as well if this is the kind of pup you'll want. But they deserve a better handler, not one that pokes a dirty finger on his dog as part of his training. I wonder what's going on in that guy's head? Pretty silly, isn't it?



> Why take the thing bigger than my head, when I can get a skinny leg. This is not unusual at all.


Yeeeeeeeeeessssss, why take that thing bigger than your head? It shouldn't be unusual at all and that's mainly what I am trying to say all along. All our pups do these and it's no big deal. You're absolutely right, it's not really strange nor is it mystic training. So go ahead and tell the rest, Jeff. 




> The dog was munchin on the treat you had in your hand "Oh mystic one" : P


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Nice try, Jeff!!! You poor thing. By the way, where's that video you said you would do and show me, Oh Great Trainer? Or you're just full of hot air and you can't do what you say? I'm sorry, in our little corner of the world, we do as we say, or we lose face.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Nice try, Jeff!!! You poor thing. By the way, where's that video you said you would do and show me, Oh Great Trainer? Or you're just full of hot air and you can't do what you say? I'm sorry, in our little corner of the world, we do as we say, or we lose face.


so are you saying that the handler wasn't giving the dog a treat in that video?

lots of history here sammy. of course there's nothing wrong with giving a puppy or even a dog for that matter a treat. this greatly differs from what jose has said in the past and even in this thread. by having the puppy climb ladders and walk planks, the dog and handler build a bond where the dog only works for the handler and does nothing for itself, therefor treats and any other tangible reward are not needed. at least that's what he has said in the past...


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## SammyBlondin (Mar 27, 2007)

Ahhh my bad, did not know there was history.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The decoy has nothing to do with our dogs.

So let me guess, you visualize an attack??? Like that movie where the guy could see what the eagle could see?

And maybe i would like all your dogs at this age.......


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

*Re: I Must Be Blind...*

For what it's worth, I've seen the first video before and I just watched it again now...I still don't see anything in Al's hand. If you watch the video closely, you see(at least with my blind eyes) his hand is facing downward the whole time, and even when the pup tries to nip him it never makes contact.

That said, thanks as always to Al for sharing!


Andy.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

SammyBlondin said:


> Ahhh my bad, did not know there was history.


Oh yes, it does have history. And I suggest you track it down to know who the real buggers here are. I'm just here to say that pups can be worked early as in the olden days without any use for food or props with matching videos and pics to prove it, and you now see what I get for sharing. As if I pose a very big threat to what they do or preach.

But really, it's getting to be fun for me playing along with these guys...

Best regards...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Like I didn't start out that way. <rolls eyes>

I personally find many things you do to be useful........in a circus.LOL


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

That pup looks older than 9-10 weeks old. And (gasp!) i thought i saw a treat in your hand at the 2nd table too, Personally i don't see the need for a prong at 10 weeks old but it's your dog. Either way, nice puppy.
AL


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

There is nothing wrong with training a puppy without food or toys.

BUT...

You must also admit that you've made remarks about people who do so. Even just a tad.  I've personally found a few things said, not specifically by you I believe, that's a bit insulting, which is along the lines of "Anyone can just offer your food-trained dog food and he'll obey", and "your food trained dog is only obeying you for the food". As if a relationship could not exist "with props". Give the dog some credit--they're not that stupid.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The decoy has nothing to do with our dogs.
> 
> So let me guess, you visualize an attack??? Like that movie where the guy could see what the eagle could see?
> 
> ...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> That pup looks older than 9-10 weeks old. And (gasp!) i thought i saw a treat in your hand at the 2nd table too, Personally i don't see the need for a prong at 10 weeks old but it's your dog. Either way, nice puppy.
> AL



I commented on that on a previous forum. In fact, some degree of disappointments were expressed by my clients when they saw their dog not as big as in pictures. Can't help that.

I have worked dogs in pretty complex exercises without the use of such. I don't see why I should use one now on a VERY SIMPLE foundation exercise involving a pup.

A whole chicken, feathers and all, is all what he gets at the end of the day. No in-betweens. I don't even have one.

Don't worry about the prongs. They're big, not the small ones that could hurt the pup. Besides, I think I know how to use one by now.

Best regards...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> There is nothing wrong with training a puppy without food or toys.


I never said there was anything wrong with training a puppy with food or toys. I only said I never used such. 




Lyn Chen said:


> BUT...
> 
> You must also admit that you've made remarks about people who do so. Even just a tad.  I've personally found a few things said, not specifically by you I believe, that's a bit insulting, which is along the lines of "Anyone can just offer your food-trained dog food and he'll obey", and "your food trained dog is only obeying you for the food". As if a relationship could not exist "with props". Give the dog some credit--they're not that stupid.


[/QUOTE]

I only make remarks on people with ill-intent, as far as I know. As for the others NOT SPECIFICALLY ME who made remarks that irritated you, go check them out why they can say that. I'm sure they have reasons.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I personally find many things you do to be useful........in a circus.LOL



Don't console your obviosuly envious heart with that, Jeff. I still believe you can do better than that. So surprise me, show me your video(s). Prove me you're much more than just biteworks and canned routines. Show me that warrior heart, soldier. Let me be proud of you...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

the only video that jeff could post that would maintain balance in the galaxy would be of his dog climbing ladders and walking planks in an attic. that is the only thing that could counteract jose's video with treats and prong collars. lol...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> the only video that jeff could post that would maintain balance in the galaxy would be of his dog climbing ladders and walking planks in an attic. that is the only thing that could counteract jose's video with treats and prong collars. lol...


I'm a simple guy very easy to please. I'd appreciate that....


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> the only video that jeff could post that would maintain balance in the galaxy would be of his dog climbing ladders and walking planks in an attic. that is the only thing that could counteract jose's video with treats and prong collars. lol...



Nice try Tim, but try harder. lol


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Al, i liked the video, like i said , nice pup. One question though, do you ever use food/ball with puppy's? Why does the use of a reward seem to be a problem with puppy training in your your veiw? I ask because this is how i do it and my dogs seem to have no ill effects from it, not an attack, just a simple question,
AL


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Same with Al Curbow, I'd also like to ask why the repeated emphasis on "no food, no toy, no props, no manicured lawns"...as if there was something wrong with said things.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Al, i liked the video, like i said , nice pup. One question though, do you ever use food/ball with puppy's? Why does the use of a reward seem to be a problem with puppy training in your your veiw? I ask because this is how i do it and my dogs seem to have no ill effects from it, not an attack, just a simple question,
> AL


Al Reanto and others have posted in several topics over the year that they do not reward with toys or food; they want the dog to work for the handler, and not for "pay."

Others have found that using food and/or tugs, etc., in the teaching part of training a command is effective.

I hope that I'm phrasing it neutrally.

Based on the outcome of many threads, this is is probably a neverending controversy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

'cause it's magic!!!!!!!!

Show me the end results, not puppies in rafters. There is Mondio ring over there, they are doing quite well, so take a dog that was trained with that stupid decoy doesn't matter mentality and lets see what is up.

After all, your dog is working for you.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

> they want the dog to work for the handler, and not for "pay."


This is what I'm really curious about. Do you think (not you Connie, you as a general term) that dogs properly trained with food and/or toys are not doing it for the handler? Because you'll often find the same dog won't work for any handler other than his own, *regardless* of the training methods used.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Al, i liked the video, like i said , nice pup. One question though, do you ever use food/ball with puppy's?


Oh yes, once upon a time I did too. My intro to dogs have been that way as with everybody else. It was the trend and everyone wanted to ride the bandwagon, so to speak. Realizing it now, it seems even trainers before don’t even know nor cared why they have to use this and that, or do this and that. It was just that, a trend that everyone must do without question or prepare to be an outcast, Me myself got carried away a bit, unmindful of the fact that I’m supposed to be equipped with an intellect to question why I was doing such. Not that it’s bad, but that’s the way it’s supposed to be. It’s my dog, my time, my money and most of all, my purpose.



> Why does the use of a reward seem to be a problem with puppy training in your your veiw?


You may have gotten me wrong all this while, First Al. I reward my dogs or pups too for a job well-done. Not toys, food or balls, but a heartfelt-praise that will let them “understand” how I appreciate them. It’s not a high-pitched mechanical praise, it may very well be just a whisper or a tap, depending on myself. So should they be involved in a calamity search one day for instance, their handlers need not reward them after a find with weiners and livers in the presence of half-starving people, nor throw a ball and do a high-pitched praise in the presence of wailing relatives. But that’s just me. 

But then I have nothing against food and toy rewards. I believe it has its use, mostly in the sporting field. Some use them to start the pup up. I may also have a use for them should I have toy dogs. But with working dogs, it’s more of a distraction than an aid specially if one simulates demanding conditions that dynamically change. I’m best off without them. 





> I ask because this is how i do it and my dogs seem to have no ill effects from it, not an attack, just a simple question,
> AL


I will not ask you what you do. It’s none of my business. But if your system suits your training, then you’re very well off with it. Should you be that rare type that will want to try out something to learn better from your dog, you better have options.

Don’t worry, Al. I know a question that’s intended for clarification, or one that’s intended for disruption. This forum has taught me that much. 

Best regards…


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So a sport foundation is a bandwagon? There's nobody in the sport world that understands why they do what they do and can apply it to situations outside of sport? Interesting concept.

The next video I want to see from you is a 60 second+ video clip of an adult dog engaging a decoy in whatever style it is that you normally train, none of this puppy crap and agility anymore, show me the result of what you are training. Show me what happens before the attack, show me what happens after it, show me how the dog outs, show me any corrections or control you put on the dog, the dogs body language, the dogs face, the sound of the dogs bark, what the decoy is doing etc etc.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> 'cause it's magic!!!!!!!!


magic my a$$, You just said it's not unusual. Now which is which?

Whatever you say just pulls you down. Your post just revealed that your 30 years of training you brag about, all you saw was a sporting field, and your world revolves around it. 

You got to do better than that to impress me, soldier....


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So a sport foundation is a bandwagon? There's nobody in the sport world that understands why they do what they do and can apply it to situations outside of sport? Interesting concept.


Mike, anything that may be wrong with my personal observation is my problem, not yours. 




> The next video I want to see from you is a 60 second+ video clip of an adult dog engaging a decoy in whatever style it is that you normally train, none of this puppy crap and agility anymore, show me the result of what you are training. Show me what happens before the attack, show me what happens after it, show me how the dog outs, show me any corrections or control you put on the dog, the dogs body language, the dogs face, the sound of the dogs bark, what the decoy is doing etc etc.


... and I'll tell you what you what you want to see. A dog biting a sleeve hanging on there calmly while being whacked, kicked and punched. That will be your basis for a good dog.

No, Mister Forum-owner. I will not give you that luxury. Instead, I will allow you to use your imagination this time as to what kind of dog that pup will be one day knowing how he was raised in uncompromising discipline doing agility, scentwork and bitework at that early age, which you probably never had imagined. I will not spoil you anymore. Don't think I'm pissing you off. The truth the pups have spoken in my video did.

Best regards...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> ... and I'll tell you what you what you want to see. A dog biting a sleeve hanging on there calmly while being whacked, kicked and punched. That will be your basis for a good dog


I don't care if the dog comes off the bite, bites with half a mouth, re-targets 4 times and bites your decoy in the face, as long as the dog is showing me confidence when doing so. Show me your end result. I like sport, but that's not the only thing we train, I don't just look at dogs hanging off a sleeve, that's sport, sport is sport, I just believe in a sport foundation before getting on to the fun work.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I don't care if the dog comes off the bite, bites with half a mouth, re-targets 4 times and bites your decoy in the face, as long as the dog is showing me confidence when doing so. Show me your end result. I like sport, but that's not the only thing we train, I don't just look at dogs hanging off a sleeve, that's sport, sport is sport, I just believe in a sport foundation before getting on to the fun work.


You want confidence, Mike? Haven't you seen enough with those pups yet? Let me see your adult dogs do even just a fraction of what those pups do, CONFIDENTLY, and I'll show you what our almost yearlings can do. Deal?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> I will not ask you what you do. It’s none of my business. But if your system suits your training, then you’re very well off with it. Should you be that rare type that will want to try out something to learn better from your dog, you better have options.


i think this quote is a perfect example of why you run into so many adverse reactions on this forum. you start out trying to play the "i'm just a humble guy who trains different from you" and then turn into "my way is better than yours". you probably don't care, i just thought i'd clue you in to why you get the reaction you do.



Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> No, Mister Forum-owner. I will not give you that luxury. Instead, I will allow you to use your imagination this time as to what kind of dog that pup will be one day knowing how he was raised in uncompromising discipline doing agility, scentwork and bitework at that early age, which you probably never had imagined. I will not spoil you anymore.


and then this just pretty much blows away any shred of credibility you had. i would suspect that if such a video were to be posted by you, it would look no different than those sport dogs you seem to despise...


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Here's something. I believe this is from Al's training or his associates. 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5716530146205123132&q=mgk9

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3864907668516568839&q=mgk9

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6437024631842969110&q=mgk9

There is also the water training he posted a while back, although I'm too lazy to grab the link.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Here's something. I believe this is from Al's training or his associates.
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5716530146205123132&q=mgk9
> 
> ...


hmmmm. where have i seen training like that before....hmmmm. oh yeah, any SPORT that uses a suit.

and i find it entertaining that in spite of all the invaluable communication that was developed during the ladder climbing and plank walking stages of puppydom, that a prong collar correction is still needed to out the dog (again, not a bad thing, just goes against what jose seems to preach)...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

WOW! 

Really need to re-think that decoy thing.

Man, you are really getting it this time. Good thing we luv ya!!!!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I'd just like to add that if you see a really good dog, the fact that he's on a sleeve and/or trained that way won't deter him from making the decoy's life hell. I've seen dogs wrap themselves around the decoy, use their entire body to force them down, some have stopped the decoy during the escape, etc. A strong is a strong dog. Even with the most boring, mechanical training, a strong dog will bleed through and do what HE wants. This is often what I like to see...the hanging on the sleeve like a dead fish thing is not. But I don't blame the sport. I just use it as a basis for the quality of the dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Man, you guys are starting to get it......now if I can just get rid of Sch....LOL


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Man, you guys are starting to get it......now if I can just get rid of Sch....LOL


*having given all he could teach, Jeff gets on his spaceship and flies away...*


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Obviously there is a leak somewhere.....


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> i think this quote is a perfect example of why you run into so many adverse reactions on this forum. you start out trying to play the "i'm just a humble guy who trains different from you" and then turn into "my way is better than yours". you probably don't care, i just thought i'd clue you in to why you get the reaction you do.


Oh, that was a classic reaction, Tim. Seen that all the time. As if I, and other posters here as well, dont know what you guys are really up to. Remember, you're a police officer, so have that decency to ADMIT IT. In case you didn't know, you've been pretty much consistent since the early days I posted. 

And please be man enough not to involve others to make you look unanimous, when it's obviously just you and Jeff for the most part who had really done nothing much here except taunt and ridicule what doesn't agree with what you do. You could have simply asked nicely and all will be well. You thought you could bully posters around here and get away with it. That's childish and insecure. You see, don't start something with me that you can't finish. I will let you learn your lesson. 

I just thought i'd clue you in to see what the real problem is. 



> and then this just pretty much blows away any shred of credibility you had. i would suspect that if such a video were to be posted by you, it would look no different than those sport dogs you seem to despise...


You see, Tim, any guy half as smart will just simply go thru your post and will fairly have an idea of what the problem is. You are just so quick to see the speck in one's eye while you ignore the plank in yours. It's just so tactless. Though I know this is again classic, but why are you so afraid that you are so quick to relate all trainings with what you do? If you believe in it, at least show the confidence, though I understand the problem you expressed in a previous thread that you don't have that luxury of developing dogs yourself. Anything wrong with the dogs passed on to you? Weren't they selected and trained in the same way you advocate?

My goodness!!! All you need is to be formal and decent, and you'll have better interaction. That's it, that's all.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> ... Remember, you're a police officer, so have that decency to ADMIT IT. ...


I don't understand this, Al.

Are you saying that Tim hides the fact that he is an LEO and K9?

There is no hidden agenda in my question. I'm sincerely asking what this means.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Going all mystical is one thing, but you go too far when you suggest there is some sort of hidden agenda going on. And for the record, Tim and Jeff are not the only ones who question your methods. I've stopped participating because so much of what is said leaves the realm of logic and exists on some bizzare plane, which apparently only you and those who agree with you are capable of understanding.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I don't understand this, Al.


shhhh. connie don't tell everyone what i do for a living. i try so hard to keep that a secret...

i don't think jose understands it. it's pretty obvious that when he gets exposed, he just talks in circles. coherent? bah. who needs that?

so you think only jeff and i are the only ones who see through your BS jose? read through this entire thread again. while, yes, jeff and i remove the please and thank you's there are several other people who "question" what you say. jeff and i just remove the pleasantries. 

bullying posters would be forcing someone to agree with me or forcing them to leave. people have done nothing but ask for proof or a look at the finished product and you just give some poppycock response about how we're not privledged enough to see one of your dogs or some other BS.

keep in mind that when you first started posting here, i pretty much thought you had a nice thing going doing what you did. i still see some value in doing the things that you do. i just don't happen to believe that your dogs walk on water because they climbed ladders as puppies. i have only come out strongly against you lately because of your inclination to criticize others. it's not enough for you to be happy with the way you do things. you have to try and tear down others who don't do it. that really shows a lack of confidence in your own methods!

you often say that before you were "enlightened" you used to do things in the traditional, sport type way. then you found jesus and now your dogs are so much better. ever think that you just weren't that good at doing things "the old fashioned way"?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We just say what we say MAN STYLE cause we don't have to sissy things up where we work. LOL


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Lyn Chen,

I thought you'd be decent enough to ask me what those workouts were all about if you found them inconsistent with what I believe in. Instead you labelled it outright for the purpose of attacking me personally. You broke my heart. 

Be it to win in a competition or for any other purposes, I believe trainings are done for a purpose. Moreso for those returned dogs you see in those videos. You see a dog biting a sleeve no matter what beatings it takes, and by the way you all sound here, you seem to say it's ridiculous. You say it's sporty as if there's something wrong in sports that you accuse me of. It has its place, but obviously not there. I'd agree with all of you that for my purpose, it may really be ridiculous. Yet there is nothing wrong with a a dog taking an arm bite. So it's not at all that bad. What it needs is to understand that he may get hurt doing just that, and if he goes down his handler would surely be next, with vengeance.

In another video you see the same dog on a conversion workout doing multiple-attackers with initially 2 decoys involved. No suits, just to make sure he doesn't need one to engage. The dog needs to be pissed, not calm, as there will be no calmness in any hostile engagements. He has to learn to fight in the way an ancient described it; an art of war of a superior kind, who knows how to use the resources at his disposal (Stephanitz).

Do you see the rationale in this training? I'll tell you why. No person in his right mind will ever attack you with a PPD. If he does, then run away. Shouting "paken" and then sending your dog 20 yards away to take down a sole victim with an adoring crowd cheering, does not happen in the streets. I can only wish it were that simple. But then I understand sendout exercises are used to gauge dogs for breeding purposes, so it has a purpose.

Same with the other dog that has to understand taking a legbite is effective as well, but can get hurt if he doesn't watch it. The will of self-preservation is always strong, moreso with humans.

I don't really know if it's all worth it explaining these to you. With Jeff and Tim, nothing matters anymore because it's not what they do. I will be counting on you to be clear in the head. 

Best regards...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You can't shout "paken" anymore.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> shhhh. connie don't tell everyone what i do for a living. i try so hard to keep that a secret...
> 
> i don't think jose understands it. it's pretty obvious that when he gets exposed, he just talks in circles. coherent? bah. who needs that?



See Tim? You're behaving like a child again. Wrong, I exposed you, and I feel the bitterness in you!!!!!!!!!! You want to get even, It's all in your post!!!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

> I thought you'd be decent enough to ask me what those workouts were all about if you found them inconsistent with what I believe in. Instead you labelled it outright for the purpose of attacking me personally. You broke my heart.


Err, what? I am attacking you what where now? I believe it was Tim who said what you're quoting. If you remember, I have actually taken and applied your techniques to my own dogs as added exercises to their overall training. I have nothing against your training--I have an idea of what it's supposed to produce, and I just have to add that the exercises HAVE in fact helped my super hard dog become more tractable to me. I understand that getting your dog to climb up ladders and other weird places is putting them on stress so that obeying you relieves that stress. It is not that difficult a concept to understand. 

What I've always had a problem is our interest in your training nearly always is taken as an attack, while you continue to act as if you have nothing to learn from any other method, branding them as nothing more than gimmicks. You have never even addressed why you think that using food and toys will result in an unreliable dog or a dog who doesn't obey you for you. I would think that a guy who believes in giving his dog enough credit would realize that dogs are not that flakey to stop obeying you just because you're no longer giving them food.

There is nothing wrong with the method. I agree with the others above--it is merely the way they are presented. We all have something to learn from everything. Even Jeff.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Tim,

Level with me, man. What do you find so strange and mysterious? I can help you to the best I can if you ask me and mean well. That's all I asked ever since. Why can other people try it adn though half-bake, still see some value in it? Even Connie here worked it out and saw nothing much to it except to try. Posters gone here now doing real work have helped explain some values in the work to the point that they won't risk it if a dog hasn't got such training that you so much ridicule. If others have done it to uncover the mystery as you say it is, why can't you? Is it because your only desire is to attack and ridicule me? C'mon Tim. explain yourself...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> See Tim? You're behaving like a child again. Wrong, I exposed you, and I feel the bitterness in you!!!!!!!!!! You want to get even, It's all in your post!!!


not even close jose. there is no "exposing" of me. no secret to the way i train my dog and help others train theirs. no zen mysticism. there are videos of my dog on this site. i have nothing to hide. it is YOU who refused to post any videos of your finished dogs. lyn chen posted some. it was YOU who was exposed.

when you crticized lyn for my thoughts on the videos she posted, i think you may have misinterpreted them. i was not criticizing the dogs at all. the dog bit the arm on the sleeve? so what. i don't have a problem with that. i was merely saying that for all intents and purposes, those dogs looked no different than a dog trained in any suit sport. if i wanted to criticize, i would have said something about the dog who lets go when the decoy touches the underside of his belly.

i really never set out to bash you jose. you kind of brought it on yourself and like i usually do, i took the bait. i seem to start out with good intentions, and when the person (this time you) get defensive, i strike back. look no further than greg long's last "article" i thought my initial reply was pretty benign. it wasn't until others questioned greg and greg lashed back that i kind of joined the pack. perhaps a flaw in my personality. i just like talking dogs and training and sometimes get a bit "spirited". at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is whether or not your dog performs up to your expectations. since you say that they do, then the method that got them there doesn't really matter. it's all personal preference at that point. good luck to you and your dogs jose...


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

AL, Do you have any videos with a finished dog? I'd love to see an obedience and protection video with an adult dog,
AL


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> What I've always had a problem is our interest in your training nearly always is taken as an attack....


No Lyn, I remember myself complaining about that. You just have to visit previous threads and see where it all came from. I am quick to apologize if I have made mistakes. Its a decent thing to do. I have never waited for anyone in ambush for him to make a mistake so I can taunt and ridicule him. I only react when needed. Try to look the other side. 




> while you continue to act as if you have nothing to learn from any other method, branding them as nothing more than gimmicks. You have never even addressed why you think that using food and toys will result in an unreliable dog or a dog who doesn't obey you for you. I would think that a guy who believes in giving his dog enough credit would realize that dogs are not that flakey to stop obeying you just because you're no longer giving them food.


I have nothing to say much about other methods since I don't work it. There's still much more to learn in what I do that I will not have the time to scrutinize other methods. Besides I don't scrutinize other methods to find fault in it. Though I have nothing againts food or toy rewards and I know it serves its purpose, I cannot say anything concrete about it. So it's best to keep my silence. What I can tell you is what I do, that's all. Anyway, thank you for trying.



> There is nothing wrong with the method. I agree with the others above--it is merely the way they are presented. We all have something to learn from everything. Even Jeff.


Thank you, Lyn. Rest assured I can take constructive criticisms. But my presentations now will depend on how it was asked. You can't deny me the fact that you are aware what these people are really up to. It could all stop if only they ask and mean well. It's their choice.

Best regards...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> AL, Do you have any videos with a finished dog? I'd love to see an obedience and protection video with an adult dog,
> AL



Yes, Al. I think I do have somewhere. I still have to dig up but I hope you understand if I can't do it on time. I'm leaving very soon for your part of the world as well as others and much preparations I have to do. Those vids I posted in this thread were for Lacey who requested for pup vids. They were old vids but I do hope it served her purpose well.

By the way, I don't have finished dogs. Dogs walk with me thru life and every new stage I walk thru is like a new beginning for them. I hope you don't find that mysterious. 

Hope I can see you and we can work it together.

Best regards...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We just say what we say MAN STYLE cause we don't have to sissy things up where we work. LOL



... and when did saying BULLSHIT, CRAP or WTF, make you a man and an outstanding trainer, Jeff? I think you just cover up you're being a low-life sissy after all.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes........that must be it. That and the unfinished dog theory.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes........that must be it.



Thank you, Jeff, for being such a MAN to admit that... Sorry but all the while, I thought you never had values...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

> shhhh. connie don't tell everyone what i do for a living. i try so hard to keep that a secret...
> 
> i don't think jose understands it. it's pretty obvious that when he gets exposed, he just talks in circles. coherent? bah. who needs that?


Well, well, well. If that’s isn’t being childish, I don’t know what childish means. Of course, you don’t need to be coherent, you’re just hurling insults for your own pleasure anyway….



> so you think only jeff and i are the only ones who see through your BS jose? read through this entire thread again. while, yes, jeff and i remove the please and thank you's there are several other people who "question" what you say. jeff and i just remove the pleasantries.


Unfortunately, Tim, reading thru the thread and others as well makes it more confirmed that you only meant to bash. Admit it, you had bad intentions all throughout many threads in this forum, for reasons I don’t even know. You seem to find pleasure in it. Well, for Jeff, there’s absolutely no doubt. Questioning is never a problem. That’s what forums are for. But to taunt and ridicule, or question with intent to those is a no-no. Know where you stand, officer. 



> bullying posters would be forcing someone to agree with me or forcing them to leave. people have done nothing but ask for proof or a look at the finished product and you just give some poppycock response about how we're not privledged enough to see one of your dogs or some other BS.


Don’t make definitions for your own convenience. I know you know what’s going on here and don’t cover up. The only time I was asked for a finished video, whatever that means which I find pretty much irrelevant to this thread in the first place, was about 5 post ago. I have my reasons to believe that request was not done in good faith. Al Curbow requested and he’s going to get one in due time. Do you care to know why?



> keep in mind that when you first started posting here, i pretty much thought you had a nice thing going doing what you did. i still see some value in doing the things that you do. i just don't happen to believe that your dogs walk on water because they climbed ladders as puppies. i have only come out strongly against you lately because of your inclination to criticize others. it's not enough for you to be happy with the way you do things. you have to try and tear down others who don't do it. that really shows a lack of confidence in your own methods!


Dogs don’t walk on water, Tim, even ducks sink their legs. Dogs do swim even in deep waters and that’s a fact. So what BS are you trying to say? SO it’s my inclination to criticize others? Did I criticize you when you labelled your video water-training when I saw no water? Didn’t you flaunted negative interpretations of my videos to taunt me? Didn’t I on the contrary, lament in the previous thread for being over-criticized over my videos for no valid reasons? You’re heated arguments were over Greg’s post if I remember it right. Know your facts, Tim. 




> you often say that before you were "enlightened" you used to do things in the traditional, sport type way. then you found jesus and now your dogs are so much better. ever think that you just weren't that good at doing things "the old fashioned way"?


You're wrong about being often, Tim. It was only a few posts ago when Al Curbow asked. Anyway, so what’s wrong with being “enlightened” as you say? Will getting more and more enlightened as I work dogs each available time in situations or conditions I never worked before also be a bad thing? Did you think that I was into dogs to compete? That above statement reeks of malice, Tim. In case you don’t know. 


Anyway, for whatever its worth, I have to give you my respects for coming out to explain your side... 

Best regards…


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

just curious...was the dog who would not out until given a prong correction, working for the handler? to me it seemed that the handler was the furthest thing from that dog's mind. just looked like the dog was going for his own drive satisfaction. again, not a bad thing. in my small corner of the world, we shape a dogs drive to suit our needs.

i'll leave it at this....

i believe stressing a dog with things like ladders and planks and other environmental stuff certainly has value. i believe the value is in building environmental confidence and if done in the manner you show, build a bond between the dog and handler. what i don't believe is that it's enough to do away with things like praise/reward and corrections. i also don't feel it's a magic bullet so you don't have to work on drive development. i don't see it as a panacea for all dog training issues. the videos lyn posted prove this. again, it's clear the dog is working for himself. if he wasn't, he wouldn't need to be given a prong correction to let go of the bite. the superior communication that you profess your methods instill are not evident here. i would also say that dog MAY have some nerve issues as it clearly did not like being touched by the decoy (his reaction wasn't terrible, as he re-engaged right away). the dog APPEARS to have confidence issues while on the bite (i would never draw absolute conclusions based on such a short video).

because of this, i would assume that your initial bite training probably doesn't look too different than anybody elses on here. 

i'm trying to get this back to talking about dog training. i agree the personal attacks BOTH WAYS should stop...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> just curious...was the dog who would not out until given a prong correction, working for the handler? to me it seemed that the handler was the furthest thing from that dog's mind. just looked like the dog was going for his own drive satisfaction. again, not a bad thing. in my small corner of the world, we shape a dogs drive to suit our needs.
> 
> i'll leave it at this....


No Tim, the dog was indeed satisfying himself and the handler was the least in his mind yet. If you read thru my post with Lyn, it was a re-acquired dog (not a pup) that I was starting to size up for re-training. 



> i believe stressing a dog with things like ladders and planks and other environmental stuff certainly has value. i believe the value is in building environmental confidence and if done in the manner you show, build a bond between the dog and handler. what i don't believe is that it's enough to do away with things like praise/reward and corrections.


Tim, I don't feel anyone can train a dog without praise/rewards and corrections. How will the dog know if he conforms or violates his handler? Praise and corrections are suppose to be "markers" for a job well done and a violation respectively. The only "reward" I give is praise for reasons I already stated, that itself is controversial to many. Correct and direct is a must should the dog violate and a solid clear praise if the dog does it right. You don't have to agree with this. 




> i also don't feel it's a magic bullet so you don't have to work on drive development. i don't see it as a panacea for all dog training issues.


There's no magic in dog training, Tim. Not even shortcuts. You want it solid, then you sweat it out. As for the drive thing, I don't care to know what he's in when I work him. The bottom line is the task should be done seriously, wherever, whatever. Whether he's in a cocktail of drives shifting every split-second as the work demands is totally the dog's department, not for me to bother about.




> the videos lyn posted prove this. again, it's clear the dog is working for himself. if he wasn't, he wouldn't need to be given a prong correction to let go of the bite. the superior communication that you profess your methods instill are not evident here. i would also say that dog MAY have some nerve issues as it clearly did not like being touched by the decoy (his reaction wasn't terrible, as he re-engaged right away). the dog APPEARS to have confidence issues while on the bite (i would never draw absolute conclusions based on such a short video).


You must be talking about the second dog. That dog was overseas, and when I visited I thought the dog has turned arm-hunter. So we worked to give him leg bites while I was sizing up. He seem to be just content doing that so we made him uncomfortable with the arm again. Then he re-targetted. 

I might have the wrong assessment of that dog because a few days after, he mauled his new handler for an improper correction, hitting him just about everywhere. 



> because of this, i would assume that your initial bite training probably doesn't look too different than anybody elses on here


How do you do your bitework? Tugs, toys, rags? I'm sorry I don't use them.



> i'm trying to get this back to talking about dog training. i agree the personal attacks BOTH WAYS should stop...


so it shall be done....


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