# Border Collie is giving birth!



## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Hello All,

I've been away for abit from the forum (but lurking :? ) and have broken
my silence to announce that our 2 year old Border Collie is in the process of
giving birth!

   

She's had 5 already, w/more in her still. She gave birth to the first one at
8 pm tonight. It's now 1:16 am (and am I tired? YES! :| ) and I am with
her to make sure all is well.

Pictures will follow - but I'll post them on my website, as she is NOT a working
BC, just a really good OB pet.

I have the male too. He's a BIG Black LaB. So far, the pups are black
with white, and just one white with large black circles around her eyes!

PS: Sable, my GSD, is 9 months now, and is doing really good w/OB and
bitework, although I have been back to work ( still have the worker's comp
injury thought  ) , so I haven't had allot of time w/her like in her
younger days.

WOW ~ Another one!!! Gotta go!


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*Strange behavior from Sable*:
Sable's in her crate (in my room), and whines/cries everytime she hears
one of the pups (whelping box in the living room  ). I mean, really 
whines/cries - like she's sad that she's missing out on something!

Anyone have a reason why she's acting this way?


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

#8 just came :!: :!: :!: 

Wow!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> She is NOT a working BC, just a really good OB pet. I have the male too. He's a BIG Black Lab.


Great. More mixed-breed, pet-quality pups brought into the world. And for what reason? ...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<And for what reason?>>>

Well, ya see there was this girl dog and this boy dog, then something about bees and pollen and viola' puppies.

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

So what ARE you going to do with the pups?

There are TONS of purebred labs in shelters because they are over the top and people don't know what they are getting into.

I cannot even begin to imagine a lab x BC (clumsy hyperdog that crashes into everything?)


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I can see the possibilities of these pups becoming working dogs. The drives that both of the breeds have. I can see them as detection dogs. They could be very good at it. Play ball, Play ball, Play ball


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Well, ya see there was this girl dog and this boy dog, then something about bees and pollen and viola' puppies.


Precisely the reason most people should have their pets speutered. :roll:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I can see the possibilities of these pups becoming working dogs. The drives that both of the breeds have. I can see them as detection dogs. They could be very good at it. Play ball, Play ball, Play ball


I know people have done some crossing between different breed high drive working dogs to produce working *mixes* (but then you get into issues with 2nd geneartion outcrossing etc.) but the BC is just a pet. I am not sure how the two breeds would complement each other.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

You can into the same with total working dogs that are not cross bred. Even with a litter of working dogs Maybe just Maybe 30% will make a good working dog.

Cross breeding dogs that have good work ethics is not a bad thing. You can, sometimes, find these in pounds and you have no clue what's in their linage. Who cares as long as they will work. I have two Boston Terriers and they are not classed as working dogs but they have that drive. Both are explosive detection dogs. They love it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I will assume that the O.P. has the sense of responsibility to place every single puppy in a good home and to prevent any more accidental litters (also assuming that this was an accident that somehow happened before the pets were altered). We all know the shelter and euthanasia stats on this board, and I feel certain that we all know that a mixed litter from pet dogs is not something the dog world needs. 

Placing eight or more mixed-breed pet puppies in good homes is a formidable job. I'd start putting out feelers immediately, and requiring that each potential owner agree without exception to spay/neuter. I'm sure that every member of this board would do that same responsible thing after having been caught flat-footed and letting an accidental litter happen.

I hope they are healthy and hearty and easy to place when the time comes.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Martin Espericueta said:


> *Strange behavior from Sable*:
> Sable's in her crate (in my room), and whines/cries everytime she hears
> one of the pups (whelping box in the living room  ). I mean, really
> whines/cries - like she's sad that she's missing out on something!
> ...


Huge stressor for her; I would keep her separated 100% from the puppies. No adult dogs near them except the mother. 

I am 99.99% sure of this, but please, some breeder confirm this.

And the mother needs privacy and lack of stress even more.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Interesting that others didn't get beaten up when they were kind enough to share news of their GSD breedings with us.

I'm not impressed by accidental litters and definitely feel there's a responsibility to home (or cull)...and these types of situations should be rare...but nothing Martin's posting here makes it possible to assume 1. he "messed" up and 2. he's irresponsible to the point of throwing out in the freeway when the entertainment is up.

I agree with Connie...if you want a low-down on the actual situation, PM Martin. Maybe he's got some great pups you or a friend may be interested in...maybe he's a dern fool...maybe he's got something up on a super-breed you all would one day want. But let him explain the situation, I guess.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's a very brief guide for these first days, Martin, if you want something to read:
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/hvpup1.html#Whelp


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Martin, I really hope you weren't interfering with your BC's birth -- bad idea. Contrary to popular belief, females do not "need" help. Moral support, sure...but not help.

Keep all other dogs away from puppies, keep the whelping area quiet and stress free. Make sure all pups have access to teats on a regular basis (they should be attached to mom just about 24/7 right now). Nursing should release horomones for mom that help her cope with puppy care -- but stressing her in any way can cause her body to release chemicals which counteract hte feel-good horomones.

I am going to safely assume that this was an accident, and that you have and are taking measures to prevent future oooops litters..until then you've got your hands full...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

THANK YOU, Stacia! 8)


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Interesting that others didn't get beaten up when they were kind enough to share news of their GSD breedings with us.


The difference is they weren't breeding two pet dogs of different breeds, for no good reason. 

I wish Martin lots of luck and hope that mom and puppies stay healthy and no complications arise, but it still rubs me raw that people allow these things to happen. If you're involved in rescue to any degree, it's hard to see posts like this, or hear it in person and just be happy and talk about how adorable and sweet the puppies are. When you've worked at a shelter and helped put down dogs, anywhere from newborn to geriatric, it's just hard to find the happiness in posts like this. ... *sigh*


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Woody


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Both male and female are going to get fixed asap.
[list:472ac37652]
I've been to shelters - and know about the 1k's of dogs being distroyed.
[*]Unfortunate accident. This is not a planned litter.
[*]Unhappy event? Not for my family, nor for the people who want a *playful* pet for themselves. 
[*]Condition of "gettin' 'em fixed" before they are given to new owners - Connie, an EXCELLENT IDEA!!! I will - for sure - require this!
[/list:u:472ac37652]
Funny how people are. Most of the responsible "working line dog" owners 
on this board are either angered, or dismayed, or not happy, at my post. 
The responsible "NON working line dog" people I know in person are very 
happy and exited about owning one of these pups. 

Of course, the NON responsible "any kind of dog" owners have told me to 
dump the litter in the nearest creek or river - 'cause there's too many dogs
in the world!

So, within the past two days, I've been told: 

1) I'm a dreadful dog owner; 
2) I'm populating the dog pound with my backyard [email protected]@rd breed; 
3) Congrats on your puppies. When can I have one?

Really, I'm not taking ANY offense to ANY posting here, I'm just trippin' on 
the gammet of responses I've gotten in person and via this board.

Just wait till I tell you all about my Cockatiel giving birth to turtle eggs!!!!



:wink:


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Yes, I did NOT interfere w/the birth process, and yes, the mother/pups
comfort is being taken care of 1st priority :wink: 

*BTW, my GSD is, "working on her Bark and Hold"... (inside joke)*

Take care all.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re-buttel*

Yes, I did NOT interfere w/the birth process, and yes, the mother/pups
comfort is being taken care of 1st priority :wink:


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*r*

The father has more "ball drive" than Tiger Woods, and the female "herds
me" while we romp and play in the yard. The pups are going to be great bird dogs. 

There's a kennel out here in LB that trains all sorts of bird/gun/hunting 
dogs, and my male will be doing just that, while the female is the "family dog".

Growing up, I had a "pet" dog, several in fact, that really grew my love for
dogs. Now, were they AKC dogs? No. Were they "purebred" dogs? No. 

So, should a NON registered, or NON purebred dog, be born? Well, for 
me, I loved the dogs of my youth - and they loved me, and they were my 
best friend(s) growing up. 

So *my* answer is... _my life would have been very empty w/o them_...

And again, *my GSD is, "biting the sleeve very hard"...*


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I apologize for any misinterpretation on my part when I posted.

I was unaware it was an oops breeding since so many people are mixing and matching dogs these days making *designer breeds* without knowing anything about genetics and breeding.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Martin,

Good for you for your whole post. An accident is an accident, and we do better as we know better.

We have covered the shelter issue on the thread and in PMs, and having cleared the air with your excellent post, back to keeping us posted on the health and well-being, and you feeling free to ask questions of the puppy-savvy folks on the board.

P.S. And good for you that you plan to require neutering! That's the ONLY way to help reduce the overflowing shelter problem.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

> 1.8 MILLION dogs put down in them (shelters) EVERY YEAR





> EVERY YEAR about 3 million MORE dogs enter shelters, and 56% are euthanized without ever being rehomed. Of the 3 million, about 25% are purebred.


Wow. I will be THAT responsible dog owner, fixing my pets (from now on).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Good man! And I know we all want to help if you need mama/babies advice.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: Re-buttel*



Martin Espericueta said:


> Yes, I did NOT interfere w/the birth process, and yes, the mother/pups
> comfort is being taken care of 1st priority :wink:


Glad to hear it  . It's just that in our culture, birth is believed to be "dangerous" and everyone thinks they must "assist" or there will be certain death for mom/pups. This interference does more harm than good.

Also be sure NOT to introduce solid food to pups too early. Most people are not aware of why mammals produce milk. ALL mammalian offspring are born too early: that is to say they grow too large to house in teh mother's womb and so are born before they are capable of functioning indepdently. Evolution invented the mammary gland to counteract this problem. Milk is a complex, 300-ingredient substance meant to replacet he placenta; it contains an exact amount of fats, water, sugar, proteins, enzymes, horomones, and chemicals to foster the immune system, organ development, form teh GI tract (mammals are born with an "open gut" which closes through chemicals found in milk), and species specfic ingredients that aid in growth and adaptation. There are ingredients which kill cancer cells on contact...

At any rate interference can upset hte delicate balance of nursing, too. It's all supply and demand: the more the pups suckle, the more milk their mother will produce. Her milk changes from hour to hour, day to day, week to week as the pups' needs change (it can even change DURING a feeding to help protect from viruses/bacteria the pup has picked up that hte mother was not already immune to). All pups must latch on as they see fit and unlatch as they see fit...otherwise you can cause a nutritional imbalance (especially b/c the first part of a feeding is foremilk, which contains water, and the latter part is hindmilk, which contains the essential fats -- not allowing a pup to finish can cause a foremilk/hindmilk imbalance).

Now that I've talked your ear off with stuff htat probably doesn't matter to you...enjoy those smooshie puppy noses.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Well said Martin. It sounds to me that you are owed a few apologies. You didn't plan on the breeding but whats done is done. I know that several families and little kids are going to have excellent pets. I guess some people just don't realize that a dog doesn't have to be AKC registered or purebred to make a good companion and friend, or even a good working dog for that matter. For the sake of dogs we should be glad that there are people out there who don't care about papers or purebreds. Without these people mixed breeds would not have loving homes to go to. I know accidents happen, and it sounds like you are a responsible dog owner and care about your animals and you will do the right thing by finding the puppies good homes and requiring them to get fixed. So I am going to praise you for doing whats right instead of bashing you before not hearing a little bit about the situation. Congrats and good luck with the puppies, you sounded very excited about having them.


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

> ust wait till I tell you all about my Cockatiel giving birth to turtle eggs!!!!



OK. I'm dying to hear about this. A lot of 'teels won't sit their OWN eggs! Bet she was surprised when they hatched!!  

You can PM me with details so's we keep this thread about your DOGS!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

jay lyda said:


> I guess some people just don't realize that a dog doesn't have to be AKC registered or purebred to make a good companion and friend, or even a good working dog for that matter.


No, no no. [-X Just to clear the air, the fact that these puppies _might_ make good companions (or even good working dogs) was not the issue at all. The fact that they are not purebred was also not the issue - hell, many of us on this board, including myself, own mixed breed dogs! The issue that I had was that in the original posts, the excitement level made it sound as if this were something oh-so-wonderful, and the statement that "I have the daddy too, a big black lab" made it sound as if this were something that was planned for or that maybe he just didn't care whether or not they bred, since he allowed them to be together knowing that they could breed. Yes, puppies are wonderful! It's just that the shelter worker in me comes out when I hear about how excited someone is over their dog having puppies when the dog should never have been bred in the first place. The fact that it was bred to a dog of a different breed makes it that much 'worse' for me. ](*,) 



> I know that several families and little kids are going to have excellent pets.


True, and several dogs and puppies are going to be euthanized in the local shelter because several families and little kids are going to get one of Martin's puppies instead. What's going to happen to those puppies when those families and/or little kids get tired of them? 





> For the sake of dogs we should be glad that there are people out there who don't care about papers or purebreds. Without these people mixed breeds would not have loving homes to go to.


I totally agree. =D> I am _one_ of those people. I could care less whether a dog is a mixed breed or a pure breed, or whether a dog has papers or not. I've had mixed breed dogs my whole life; Jak is my first purebred, and also the only pet I've ever owned that isn't neutered (not counting the fancy mice and rabbits I used to have). However, some of these same people "who don't care about papers or purebreds" are also the ones that are adding to the problem by not having their pets fixed and having 'oops' litters, or purposely breeding two different breeds together either to cash in on a fad, or because they want to see what the puppies will look like as a combo of the two breeds, or because they think that dogs should be bred at least one time, or whatever. I have NOTHING against crossbreeding for a good reason, such as breeding mals and shepherds together to compliment working drives, or breeding golden retrievers and labradors because they make excellent service dogs (this has been done for YEARS).


Martin, I _will_ apologize for jumping the gun and immediately getting upset, but I will _not_ apologize for my feelings about it. What's done is done, and while I'm not glad that it happened, I'm glad that you're responsible enough to have at least the border collie spayed, and require that the puppies be speutered as well. I'm glad that you care about the well-being of the mother and pups, rather than dumping them in the river or whatever, because they weren't planned for or because you don't have the money/time to care for them. I'm glad you belong to WDF, a board that is full of knowledge and people who can help answer your questions as the puppies grow. So, yes, I will apologize for my initial response to this thread. I'm sorry that I posted in anger and frustration; it's just hard sometimes, after you've witnessed and participated in the snuffing out of innocent lives simply because there aren't enough homes for them.  

[/quote]


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

All is forgived and forgotten. You know whats funny about most issues or debates, when you get to the bottom of things usually both sides are trying to get to the same town they just take different bumpy roads to get there!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Accidents even happen with working line breeders, it's best to make the most of an accidental situation... humans do it too  Congratulations on the pups Martin, I hope you find good homes for all of them.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I also just had an ooops breeding. My WORKING Boston Terriers. We planned the first litter and soled both pups. This last time was not planned. I keep both in the house and new the female was due to come in season. Checked her every day. She was puffy but never bled. What she was in was a silent heat. Go figure. What's done is done. I guess this was meant to be. I'll just ask for twice as much for these.   :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I also just had an ooops breeding. My WORKING Boston Terriers. We planned the first litter and soled both pups. This last time was not planned. I keep both in the house and new the female was due to come in season. Checked her every day. She was puffy but never bled. What she was in was a silent heat. Go figure. What's done is done. I guess this was meant to be. I'll just ask for twice as much for these.   :wink:


So no "over-the-fence" boyfriend? :lol:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

So no "over-the-fence" boyfriend? 

No, Bentley and Lexus pretty much keep the fence patroled.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

> > I know that several families and little kids are going to have excellent pets.
> 
> 
> True, and several dogs and puppies are going to be euthanized in the local shelter because several families and little kids are going to get one of Martin's puppies instead. What's going to happen to those puppies when those families and/or little kids get tired of them?


I will be one of THOSE people who Evangelize fixing pets - I really didn't
understand the issue until the stats were shared w/me.

So, call me a convert!!! But... I just have to comment on this quote above:

True, dogs/pups in shelters will be euthanized b/c instead of adopting out
of a shelter, someone will get one of my pups. BUT - if my pups were a
PLANNED litter from two GSD working line SchH III dogs - those shelter dogs
would still be out of luck, right? So, whether I purposely bred or not (and 
again - I did NOT want a breeding from my two pets - just was too dumb
and slow w/spaying) my pets or the example above of two GSDs, the
outcome would be the same. Well, almost. I'd be ALLOT richer w/the GSD
pups.

Or does the $$$ make the diff?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Martin Espericueta said:


> True, dogs/pups in shelters will be euthanized b/c instead of adopting out
> of a shelter, someone will get one of my pups. BUT - if my pups were a
> PLANNED litter from two GSD working line SchH III dogs - those shelter dogs would still be out of luck, right? So, whether I purposely bred or not (and again - I did NOT want a breeding from my two pets - just was too dumb and slow w/spaying) my pets or the example above of two GSDs, the outcome would be the same. Well, almost. I'd be ALLOT richer w/the GSD pups.
> 
> Or does the $$$ make the diff?


I know you really aren't saying the situations are similar. The intention to buy a working dog doesn't translate into choosing a mixed-breed shelter pet rescue. A person who wants a pet might go to a shelter and choose a rescue, or take a pup from an unplanned litter.

The person looking for a working dog generally does neither of those.

The two situations, with a few statistically insignificant exceptions, are unrelated.

This is a non-discussion at this point. Come on, guys. Points have been made. Enough is enough.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

As Mike said:
Accidents even happen with working line breeders, it's best to make the most of an accidental situation... humans do it too. Congratulations on the pups Martin, I hope you find good homes for all of them. END


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