# KNPV large article search



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Topic came up with the Lucas vids recently..

Compiled a list of all the videos I could find of training for this excercise...for anyone interested. I am sure that there are more out there, but this is what I could find...

It is pretty interesting seeing the various things that people do, and the different ways it is trained.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0BD5611C87F4DAD9&feature=mh_lolz


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks for doing that, Joby! I like it a lot.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Joby! Some really nice video there.
Amazing to see how well small pups are learning the intensity at/on the box without all the collars, double leashes, pressure training, etc. 
It's all about choices!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You do good work!!--keeps us on our thinking toes. LOVED Cobain. Watched several of these. So from the KNPV folks is it acceptable that they don't have their feet on the box. For several dogs it seemed a find and alert.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You do good work!!--keeps us on our thinking toes. LOVED Cobain. Watched several of these. So from the KNPV folks is it acceptable that they don't have their feet on the box. For several dogs it seemed a find and alert.
> 
> T


sure...it is find and bark, and keep barking vigorously until the handler gets there, without biting the box, and heel away. that is all that is required. I think some people try to get the dog standing on the box, to avoid the biting of the box, and to keep him very close (on top of) it......could be totally wrong though.

it is interesting to see some of the methods, which vary from trainer to trainer, the dogs motivations seem to be varied as well. some want the box itself, some want what may be in the box, some bark at the box itself, some just bark, some appear to be guarding the box.

there is one box that has remote control, ball falls out the side for reward.. there are also electrified boxes to stop dogs from biting the box...

...still looking, just added one more.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Dog have to be near the box, so standing on the box is amethod to know for sure he barks when he found the article.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Dog have to be near the box, so standing on the box is amethod to know for sure he barks when he found the article.


thank you...I am sure it seems very simple to you guys..

but watching the videos there seems like a lot of variety to it.

appreciate any input you are willing to share greatly...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Dog have to be near the box, so standing on the box is amethod to know for sure he barks when he found the article.


I actually like and understand the feet on the box similar to the OG. It does take care of the "near" issue.


Terrasita


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

Nice vids Joby. I have been on the WDF for quite some time. I rarely post or ask questions for whatever reason. Im more of a watch and learn, ask or interrupt as little as possible. But, i do have a question. What is the purpose or reason behind the box search? I have a pretty good idea just based on the name of the exercise but is there more to it then just search and bark?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Isaiah Chestnut said:


> Nice vids Joby. I have been on the WDF for quite some time. I rarely post or ask questions for whatever reason. Im more of a watch and learn, ask or interrupt as little as possible. But, i do have a question. What is the purpose or reason behind the box search? I have a pretty good idea just based on the name of the exercise but is there more to it then just search and bark?


As far as the rules go I THINK it is just a search, find, and bark. 

There are KNPV people that post on here, that can tell you more about the program and the reasons behind the exercises.

I just really found it interesting that for such a cut and dry simple exercise (on paper) that there is such a wide variety of training methods, and apparent differing motivations in the dogs during the training of exercises. 

I am working on compiling videos of the searching and barking for the man also. which is similar in some regards.

I am also wondering if looked at side by side, the article and the man, if there is any overlap between the two, in regards to the individual dogs, and the way the dogs perform each of the exercises.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

The original excercise of searching for a large article was designed when people were poaching ( had to use google translate: illegally shot/ catch animals) and Smuggeling people/ illegal stuff.
So the dog was used when the smuggler dropped something, its a search and alert excerzise. Still is used when police thinks a burglar dropped something on the run.

Man excerzise is when suspects surrenders, we teach it together as de schijn ( broken attack).


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

Yah that would be intresting to see. Im trying to learn more about different sports other than sch. I appreciate the reply.


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> The original excercise of searching for a large article was designed when people were poaching ( had to use google translate: illegally shot/ catch animals) and Smuggeling people/ illegal stuff.
> So the dog was used when the smuggler dropped something, its a search and alert excerzise. Still is used when police thinks a burglar dropped something on the run.
> 
> Man excerzise is when suspects surrenders, we teach it together as de schijn ( broken attack).


 
Thats actually pretty cool. it seems like a very useful tool. Thanks.


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

Isaiah Chestnut said:


> Yah that would be intresting to see. Im trying to learn more about different sports other than sch. I appreciate the reply.


 
This was a post at you Joby.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> The original excercise of searching for a large article was designed when people were poaching ( had to use google translate: illegally shot/ catch animals) and Smuggeling people/ illegal stuff.
> So the dog was used when the smuggler dropped something, its a search and alert excerzise. Still is used when police thinks a burglar dropped something on the run.
> 
> Man excerzise is when suspects surrenders, we teach it together as de schijn ( broken attack).


thank you for the descriptions, much appreciated.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

KNVP people please help. 

Zakia, was mentioning a guarding aspect to this exercise was told to him some others said there is no aggression actually needed.

I found this scoring breakdown for this exercise.










Is this accurate?

If so, how are the points for "guarding" figured in and evaluated? 

thanks...


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm going to take a guess that it means vigilance, how well the dog stays with the box how focused he is on it. Not in the sense of guarding the object from some one... but it's just a guess.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

thats what I was thinking, proximity, hopefully someone will explain.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

What Martha said: the judge will come in 10 m range, checks if dog is within 3 m of the box and calls in the handler to pick up dog.

Dick had to train some dogs to learn them to let the judge so near and dont make it a a guard the object excercise :mrgreen:


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

If it is not a guarding exercise why do some people use an electric copper box to teach it?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> If it is not a guarding exercise why do some people use an electric copper box to teach it?


 
What in th world is an "electric copper box?" As for an answer to your question, perhaps its for the "look."

T


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Timothy Saunders said:


> If it is not a guarding exercise why do some people use an electric copper box to teach it?


It creates frustration and through that more powerful and reliable barking, also stops dirty bites.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7tPOnk1PV0&list=PL0BD5611C87F4DAD9&index=3&feature=plpp_video

You get this, a dog that was taught that barking and harassing the box makes it move (electricity isn't introduced until the dog is crazy about it) but touching it leads to electricity, so you get a very intense allert, the dog stays with the box like glue barking it's head off trying to get it to move, but remembers not to touch it


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7tPOnk1PV0&list=PL0BD5611C87F4DAD9&index=3&feature=plpp_video
> 
> You get this, a dog that was taught that barking and harassing the box makes it move (electricity isn't introduced until the dog is crazy about it) but touching it leads to electricity, so you get a very intense allert, the dog stays with the box like glue barking it's head off trying to get it to move, but remembers not to touch it



To me, that sounds like building controlled aggression towards the box. That puts it in a sport category and not just a "find" exercise. JMHO of course!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> To me, that sounds like building controlled aggression towards the box. That puts it in a sport category and not just a "find" exercise. JMHO of course!


well it is a "sport" persay...

I have watched a bunch of training on video, seems like there are a bunch of different ways it is being trained, with dogs of different character traits, and the end result is also quite varied in the overall expression of the exercise.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> well it is a "sport" persay...
> 
> I have watched a bunch of training on video, seems like there are a bunch of different ways it is being trained, with dogs of different character traits, and the end result is also quite varied in the overall expression of the exercise.


Yes, seems to me that varied approaches are found in just about any activity, which there tends to be a general navigational method to achieve a desired result. I find where the difference lies is in the mindset of the competitor and their willingness/commitment to do what it takes in order to produce the image and achieve the merits which ultimately embody excellence.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7tPOnk1PV0&list=PL0BD5611C87F4DAD9&index=3&feature=plpp_video
> 
> You get this, a dog that was taught that barking and harassing the box makes it move (electricity isn't introduced until the dog is crazy about it) but touching it leads to electricity, so you get a very intense allert, the dog stays with the box like glue barking it's head off trying to get it to move, but remembers not to touch it


I agree but all the dogs I have seen trained like this would bite someone (not the handler) for messing with that box


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