# Reward at source



## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I'm new to dog handling and the only method I've ever been taught for detection involves the reward at source- both the initial delivery of toy and any additional play occur as close as possible to where the human deems the odor source. 

QUESTION - could it be contradictory that I only play with my dutchie who loves the fight at the odor source? What are the chances this is causing an adversity where he enjoys pulling away from odor to win the fight rather than remembering that sniffing the odor got him paid originally?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Personally, I don't see it as a problem. Initially, the reward is at the source because you are teaching an association that odor = reward. Once that is built in then you can start playing at the indication site but then you will be moving out from the indication site due to the playing. The whole "fight" is happening because of the indication (I think you are talking about more than just a tugging episode). I know with my cadaver dog I do not want to be playing all over his indication site. If I throw a ball, it's not at him, it's off to the side *away* from the indication area. Does he understand that he is getting the ball because of his indication? Seems so to me because if I hold it back - he's digging into my pocket looking for it. ("Thanks, Mom for the bologna but where's that X%$# ball?")

On a side note, depending on the footing or the physical area, there are times you will probably not be rewarding at the indication site simply because there is a risk of injury to the dog or the environment won't allow it. I guess it's not a problem when you can do it but you might get used to the idea of doing something different now and then.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Ya I can see the value of switching things up. Other thought I have in rewarding detection dogs at all relates too high a reward value. Many times, mostly reference OB, I've heard the suggestion that you have to build value in the reward but also change reward value and frequency once skill is learned. Therefore the whole process of providing abundant verbal praise and a high value toy seems to me to be distracting assuming dogs are as 'in the moment' memory wise as people say.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I was trained up just like you. Reward, reward, reward at the source and only over and at the source. But then I gained experience, started getting out more, seeing more people's dogs than my own or my unit's. And I started to question some of what I was taught. I began to see things that couldn't be explained by the old rules. Now, I don't know how much a "reward" plays into things or if there is more value (to the dog) of having interaction and praise from the handler (as is happening with your fighting reward). Yes, I think some dogs work for the reward since it's something they really want to do and the work is just a means to the end. 

And the value of the reward can change. With Sam, at first it was all about the bologna and zero interest in the ball but that changed over the last 2 years. I have a bucket of balls that I constantly throw for the pack at the house but if Sam caught one, one of the others would go over and make him give it up. He never got to "play" with his balls (Don't go there, Lee S.). He would catch one and immediately drop it. But what he found was during cadaver training, he got a ball at the end and there was NO ONE there to make him give it up. He could run and carry it around as long as he liked. Low value reward became higher value during cadaver work. I still have balls all over the house but he has minimal interest unless dead folks is involved.

I don't know if this changes anything for you but I've seen many dogs rewarded with things other than their high value reward and not stop doing the work because of it. For me if the dog changes then there are other issues going on. But you need to do what works for you and your dog. If the fighting and interaction with you is what floats this dog's boat then keep that for the final if working a multiple hide problem.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My SAR dog was trained with a kong on a rope and his reward was always a game of tug with that kong on a rope. That was for cadaver, boat work, article search, whatever.

I don't see it being any different then a dog being rewarded for a sit. They know what's required for the reward so breaking that required "behavior" will only happen if the training is lax or incorrect. 

I think a good detection dog is one that loves the search "game" and the tug, ball, Kong, whatever is just icing on the cake.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> I think a good detection dog is one that loves the search "game" and the tug, ball, Kong, whatever is just icing on the cake.


This is how I started seeing it with the dogs that had the urge for detection work.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

This post started because I recently watched a video version of a 'battle born k9' class on TAC ppv. The instructor, Mel English, stresses bob's sentiment that the right dog is one that hunts relentlessly and the right training is that which makes the hunting and sniffing more important than the toy payoff.

For me it comes down to bridging the gap between my initial training which focused on that obedient sit indication and this new approach (which provided instant improved results) for how much and where to involve the tug. 

If I understand Mr. English's training right then in my mind SAR/ bird dogs/ cadaver dogs self reward in a way. The generally longer more challenging problems they run allow that type of dog to be in that natural hunt progression for longer than a narc dog for example working a few rooms or few vehicles.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Part of the problem with the hunt driven dogs is that if you work uninspiring, mundane, or to many quick problems is that the dog will elongate out the problem on their own. By that I mean they will actually work to keep from making the find. They will search every place else *but *where the material is at. Eventually, they will get there but it will be the *absolute last* place they search. 

This is when the handler needs to step up their game and begin to challenge train or their dog will just blow them off.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Never heard of or seen that but don't doubt it's possible as smart as dogs are. The hard training is a must with any dog simply as a way to be better than the (in my case) criminal element that has nothing better to do that devise ways to beat the dog


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Ms. Platts, after further thought I don't agree that the long search/ hesitancy to make actual find are the dog's ways of screwing off. I don't have a good explanation but my counter is what biological reason do dogs have for avoiding what they want? A selection tested detection dog is all about the hunt we have agreed. So why then would a dog not show great interest in the hide we through training have established as either the end of or a massive checkpoint in the problem: the gateway to success? I've seen dogs fail to go to trained indication if the handler waits to pay and the dog wants to keep working but eventually they come back to the hide knowing they must to get paid. To me that's more of a confusion on the dogs part of what particularly is getting them paid- sniffing odor or doing obedience at odor


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> This is when the handler needs to step up their game and begin to challenge train or their dog will just blow them off.


Sarah, what is "challenge train"? I saw what I think you are describing at a cadaver seminar but figured it wouldn't hurt to ask what you mean.

Nick, I wish I knew the "right" answer to your question. Everything I ever read or saw on video showed rewarding at or as close to the source as possible. As I learn more I get the impression though that how close just might to some extent be odor specific. For example, less critical and perhaps problematic when working cadaver training problems but more so when doing Narc searches. This is probably not all that helpful but I didn't want to just swoop in on your thread and not comment on what you asked even if its just stated as speculation.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Ms. Platts, after further thought I don't agree that the long search/ hesitancy to make actual find are the dog's ways of screwing off. I don't have a good explanation but my counter is what biological reason do dogs have for avoiding what they want? A selection tested detection dog is all about the hunt we have agreed. So why then would a dog not show great interest in the hide we through training have established as either the end of or a massive checkpoint in the problem: the gateway to success? I've seen dogs fail to go to trained indication if the handler waits to pay and the dog wants to keep working but eventually they come back to the hide knowing they must to get paid. To me that's more of a confusion on the dogs part of what particularly is getting them paid- sniffing odor or doing obedience at odor


Nick, I won't say the dog is screwing off but they are not avoiding what they want. Trust me, they are sniffing the pee spots, the new odors, the interesting smells but they are avoiding is what *you *want. 
There is not a biological reason for this, but a conscious decision on the part of the dog. I won't get into the whole willful disobedience thread discussion but if their needs (physical stimulation/mental stimulation) are met then they will work as expected. A lot of this is more on the handler than the dog. Give a great handler an average dog and they will take that dog get so much out of him that he becomes a great dog. Give a great dog to a lackadaisical or even an abusive handler and the dog will become average or even less. When you have a dog that used to perform well and then stops..... there may be a physical reason but more times than not, it seems to stem from the handler meeting or not meeting the dog's needs.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> So why then would a dog not show great interest in the hide we through training have established as either the end of or a massive checkpoint in the problem: the gateway to success?


Nick you bring up a very good question. Until I had seen it first hand I doubt I would have known what Sarah was talking about. I saw it occur with three different dogs but I don't why it was happening. I also was confused by the handlers methods for correcting or addressing this behavior. It was curious to me and not something I'd personally be comfortable doing. The reason for that is simple. Lack of experience - I don't know or understand why it occurs but there are many MWD, Narc, Cadaver, SAR, Trailing, etc. members here that I hope are willing to offer some insight on this topic. I'd like to understand what it stems from and hear from experienced handlers regarding what they know to be an effective solution for it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Ms. Platts, after further thought I don't agree that the long search/ hesitancy to make actual find are the dog's ways of screwing off. I don't have a good explanation but my counter is what biological reason do dogs have for avoiding what they want? A selection tested detection dog is all about the hunt we have agreed. So why then would a dog not show great interest in the hide we through training have established as either the end of or a massive checkpoint in the problem: the gateway to success? I've seen dogs fail to go to trained indication if the handler waits to pay and the dog wants to keep working but eventually they come back to the hide knowing they must to get paid. To me that's more of a confusion on the dogs part of what particularly is getting them paid- sniffing odor or doing obedience at odor


what if they enjoy the activity of searching as much or close to as much as the end reward itself?

some dogs love to track / trail /search.. seemingly just as much as getting "paid" for success...in the handler's view... the drive to track or hunt can be as strong or stronger than the food or reward item drive I imagine...


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Sarah, what is "challenge train"? I saw what I think you are describing at a cadaver seminar but figured it wouldn't hurt to ask what you mean.


Challenge training is just that. Challenging you or the dog. Most folks work the same kind of problems with little variation. Nick's comment about training for the criminal element is similar to what I mean. The lengths some folks go to hide or conceal evidence is sometimes inspired. It's stepping outside the box and changing up things. Let the imagination go a bit wild. Take you and your dog out for a spin and actually see what you can do..... Wheeee!
For example:
I was hiding for a couple airscent/trailing dogs but decided to climb a tree on top of a hill. It was a good tree and I got up about 50-60 feet. Of course the tree I had chosen didn't have any limbs low enough so I climbed a nearby one and then leaped to my chosen tree. The question the handler and I had was could the dogs indicate on the initial tree and then locate me in the second tree. It was a yes and no answer based on a lot of factors.

Another time, I was hiding for an airscent dog. The dog located me but when he left for the refind, I quickly bolted away to a new location. The dog went to the old location, then had to find the new one. Once he found and then left me, I bolted again. It's amazing how far you can run in a short time. After the third go, the dog wouldn't leave me since he was tired of constantly having to hunt me up again. So he stayed and started a rolling bark alert. I tried it with my dog and he stopped doing refinds but 'walked' me to the subject. 

For trailing dogs, how many times do you have the subject in plain view at the end. A lot of children, when they go missing, will hide. Adults too. I hid one time for a prison BH and at the end of the track in some woods just laid on the ground and covered myself up with a brown coat. They never found me. Wandered all over the place and almost walked right on me but never found me. Eventually, I coughed up my location and when they got to me the dog still didn't find me until they took off my coat. The dog was like "oh, there you are...." The dog had the scent but they were looking for a standing or sitting person. 
How many times does your victim backtrack themselves, give wandering behavior, try to conceal their odor, or behave in a strange manner? 

Another good trailing problem is the subject who never leaves. Several times children are believed to be missing but are actually in the family car or a shed. How about hiding your subject inside their own scent pool at the staging location. A lot of trailing dogs are conditioned to GO somewhere when scented. When the subject doesn't, it throws them off their stride. How about scenting on a baby that gets carried off?

For cadaver, take carpet squares and soil some with blood or human material. Try to clean them with a variety of products and see how your dog does. Take some sheetrock and paint it. Break into some pieces and put a drop or two of blood on several different ones. Figure out different ways to conceal it. wash some, paint others, etc. How does your dog do? Swap out material with someone else, put it in non standard locations. 
Work in a pitch-black room and see if you can tell when the dog alerts. Do a box line-up with distracting odors. At one seminar, they did a cadaver hide inside a taxidermy-ed deer. My dog spent a lot of time smelling it but didn't alert and I'm not sure I would have taken it if they had. 

And so forth and so on. I call it Having Fun With Dogs. Once the dog is past the basics then you get to have fun. Then you get to pull out the history files of past searches, every error another dog team made, every funky thing any criminal ever tried, every sad search ending, and give it a go.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh. That's very different from what I was thinking you meant. Glad I asked. Sounds fun and just up my alley. What I was thinking was what I saw the handlers doing when their dogs were doing what you described earlier. 

Speaking of the unexpected, I encountered something interesting with the Dutch during a cadaver seminar. I'm still not sure but I think she led me to a recent (within minutes) crime scene. With what occurred that prompted discovery of the location, the amount of blood, and general look of the area including blood spatter I don't see how it could have been anything other than a crime scene.

OK sorry Nick, I didn't mean to derail your thread.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

There A solution for this dog that only wants to sniff but doesn't like being rewarded? Allowing the sniff to continue after the first find and accepting he will be frustrated when you put him up?


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## Brian Smith (May 26, 2013)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> This post started because I recently watched a video version of a 'battle born k9' class on TAC ppv. The instructor, Mel English, stresses bob's sentiment that the right dog is one that hunts relentlessly and the right training is that which makes the hunting and sniffing more important than the toy payoff.
> 
> I absolutely agree about having the right dog for the work. I would challenge the part about making the hunt more important that the payoff. I think too often people change their thinking and training approach when they shift gears from bite work or obedience and move into scent work, whether it be tracking/trailing or narc/bomb/nose work. Dogs learn the same way regardless of the activity but for whatever reason we forget what we know.
> The value of the toy/reward is extremely important in detection training and I think everyone knows this. But, what is important to remember is that the dog is working for the "chance" to get that reward. The reward itself is actually less rewarding than the anticipation of receiving it. So high value rewards get good work and low value rewards get crap work. This is why hunting and searching are self satisfying behaviors, because each time the dog does it, there is a chance for something good to happen. In the wild, that chance is food which equals life.
> ...


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Brain, I agree with 99 percent of what you say. I hadn't ever thought of non-reward on street deploy as extinction training but can totally see that line of logic. I have no disagreement with high value toy, never have. Only real question I had was where to play with the toy to get full benefit of dog putting his sniffing action and the reward together mentally. 

Food for thought, I had never heard of the sniff being important but saw immediate results. The way it was described was dog thinking in this new way "sniff odor, reward arrives" vs old process of "sniff odor, sit, stare, hey I got a reward for staring at this spot." It takes some reps but now (week 1) my dog does his passive alert then I wait till he sniffs the odor again and the toy arrives much more instantaneously related to the drug odor sniff. Not my place to say when you reward, I just had great success and am trying to fill in unknown of where to play tug after initial delivery for the system I am using to work best


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Here is how I look at it... I selection test "the right dog" for detection work. I make him crazy for the toy during the imprinting stage. I learn his "alert" by learning to read his body language and behavior changes when he has located odor.

Then I teach the trained response. This to me is nothing more than an obedience exercise for the toy that he is already crazy for. We marker train.. so the delivery of the toy is irrelevant. I get the behavior I want... the behavior gets marked... the crazy dog gets his reward from the handler. (often far from odor source) The play with the handler is the mega reward in my eyes. The dog can leave the odor source if he wants to after the mark is given... I don't care. The dog figures out dang quick that the reward does not come from the odor source... we end up rewarding the dog for things other than locating the source of the odor.


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## Brian Smith (May 26, 2013)

I honestly don't think it matters at all where the play actually occurs. As long as you are marking the correct behavior/response it should not effect the dogs learning/understanding of the game. I reward at source also but often it is not me who delivers the reward, especially when I work him off lead, as he is typically 15-20 feet from me. He gets rewarded and brings the ball to me for play time.
I am very cognizant of making sure the dog is rewarded for the exact behavior I want. He doesn't get it for alerting and looking at me, he must be looking at the source. I find that requiring the dog to do this makes him work to the odor source as best as possible instead of alerting at the first bit of fringe. Very important when working parking lots with multiple vehicles and a slight wind as it can push against other vehicles and cause a dog to alert on the wrong one. 
My point is, capture the behavior you want by marking at the appropriate time. The ball is nothing more that a visual marker telling the dog he has done what you want and is now released from the session. That's where/how the associations are made, not the play afterwards. The play really only effects the next search. Crappy play can get you crap on the next search. 
Shifting gears, Nick, I would like to know where your new approach came from. Hadn't heard of it but would be interested to look at and maybe learn something. 
Matt, I'm confused by your last sentence and was hoping you could explain. Are you saying that you often don't reward the dog for locating the odor and instead reward the dog for something completely different? I agree with everything else but was lost on that one.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Brian, it's somewhere earlier in the post but the new method was from a video called enhanced hunt behavior by Las Vegas officer Mel English on the site tacppv.com (a site I heard about here). The videos are discounted to $6 right now (idk how long) but even at full $20 price that's hundreds cheaper than an in person seminar I've ever been to


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

unsure if this should be a new topic of discussion but:

We select certain breeds of working dog because their anatomy allows them to smell well (no smashed snout breeds) but more importantly their drive is proper for us to manipulate it for training purposes. Is there any evidence (scientific or observed through training) that within the working breeds or within any one specific breed that one individual dog would have better or worse smelling abilities than another individual dog?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I think if you use breeds that, genetically, are bred for increased sniffing ability or the trait that reinforced use of the nose then you have a dog that is more prone to use their nose OR have more scent receptors. 

That aside what I have seen through observation with my own dogs, is that the nose needs to be "turned on". By that I mean, yes, all dogs smell but there seems to be a learned connection between using their nose and using their nose well. Like the difference between a General Practioner and a Surgeon. Both are doctors but one is general and the other more skilled. I found this out when they are puppies and I'm playing hide and seek games with their toys. There comes a point when you see a definite difference in their hunt. A change in their intelligence of the hunt if you will. I find it a little hard to describe but when when people can see it in action its very obvious.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nick I don't have an answer to your question but I think people are too quick to discount shorter nosed dogs. I have one of each. I've got a good deal of time into the Dutch as far as handler dog interface goes. The bull face has got hundreds of hours of time doing a very different type of scent work behind her. 

Without question my bull faced mastiff does much better than the Dutch I have. I always wondered how they both might do if imprinted on a new odor together at roughly the same time. The bull faced dog had 24 hrs less time on the front end and flat stomped the Dutch in the ground in speed and accuracy. In fact she was easily able to hang with the certified dogs to include a dog used for trailing.

This particular dog is a bit of an exception by most standards. I've often said it's not just that she can capably locate odor but that she seems to see through scent, the remnants of action. Sometimes it's like seeing an entire sequence of events unfold when I watch her work.


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