# Help with Aggression



## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi
I'm not to good at the computer yet so I've asked for help.

I don't know how to copy and paste yet, so I'm have asked Connie to do it for me from my email, because I would like helpful suggestions on continuing my training of an aggressive rescue.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Valerie Oneill said:


> Hi
> I'm not to good at the computer yet so I've asked for help.
> 
> I don't know how to copy and paste yet, so I'm have asked Connie to do it for me from my email, because I would like helpful suggestions on continuing my training of an aggressive rescue.


Here's Valerie's email, copied and pasted:

FROM VALERIE:


My rescue was human-aggressive when I got him, and would go from calm to "charge and bite" with no warning.

I worked with him by training him to bark and warn.

However, he will still occasionally, with someone approaching my gate or myself, especially looking threatening (say, a paper delivery person holding the rolled paper high) charge with no warning I can see. He occasionally growls threateningly at neighbors from his yard, but they are close and must be close to use their walkway.

He is on lead and he does recall (slowly and with protest). 

I need more help with this. I think his behavior in his youth and the lack of warning now might indicate instability, but I also think I have made huge progress with him.


He is muzzled when he is around grandchildren, etc., and he is not offlead outside his own property.

What would be my next steps? Should he be not allowed near the neighbors' side of the yard? I would appreciate suggestions about this powerful and aggressive dog who I believe I have made a lot of headway with.

I want him to bark/warn, but not to charge.
..............................................................

BTW, Valerie, WELCOME to you and Moses! Connie


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

A prong collar and a correction would be a good start.

Greg


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What would be my next steps? Should he be not allowed near the neighbors' side of the yard?


i can tell you that is not the thing to do. every bad behavior is an opportunity for a correction. don't avoid those situations. seek them out. the only time i would keep him away is when you are not able to give a correction (this will lead to him behaving when you are around which is where the e-collar comes in)...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> > What would be my next steps? Should he be not allowed near the neighbors' side of the yard?
> ...


This is so exactly correct, and I'm sorry I didn't say it in email exchange!  How many times have I heard people like Cesar Millan say to seek out and welcome opportunities to correct the unwanted behavior, and get it all out there and dealt with!


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Tim Martens said:
> 
> 
> > Connie Sutherland said:
> ...



Thank you all very much.
Would you use his mussel on walks when seeking out these situations?
I'm asking because when I've used it people go to the other side of the street or back away. Showing fear making his behavior worse and the correction much more of a harder one.
I've been using a pron on him my e-collar that belongs to someone else has very little shock to it so I've not been using it. I dont know what is wrong with it and it is not mine. But I can hardly feel it on my arm on high.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

the muzzle issue i can't answer. how much faith do you have in your ability to control the dog? do you think he could get away from you? if you do, then yes, use the muzzle. if you feel you can control him, then i wouldn't use it.

as far as the e-collar goes....if the only time you are using it is to zap him for this aggressive behavior, then you are only contributing to the problem. the e-collar must be introduced prior to this. uncle lou goes by the rule of 2. teach the dog 2 behaviors (down, or sit) using the e-collar. the dog learns to turn off the collar by doing what is asked. this light switch MUST go on for the dog prior to using it for any type of aggression control. he learns he gets zapped for unwanted behavior and that he can turn it off by doing what is asked. if you just slap it on there for aggression, the collar can increase this aggression because the dog may think it's being caused by the very people he's showing aggression to and make it worse.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not to be overly negative, I haven't seen the dog, but have done a lot of rescue. Why do you feel compelled to keep this dog, when as we speak, there is one losing his/her life that could be a great companion to you??

I am speaking from lots and lots of experience with rescue dogs. I think this dog is an accident waiting to happen. Think of it this way, I only have to be right once for someone to get hurt. The way you are describing it, this dog has problems that are genetic as well as influenced by the way he was raised.

I would move on. I know it is sad, but I tried very hard to "fix" this type of dog when I was younger. I am not an inexperienced trainer, and was not one then. Luckily, I have very forgiving friends. I had a lot of really close calls as well. At my age now, in those same situations, more people would have gotten hurt, I am not as fast as I was then.

Either way, I wish you luck.


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> the muzzle issue i can't answer. how much faith do you have in your ability to control the dog? do you think he could get away from you? if you do, then yes, use the muzzle. if you feel you can control him, then i wouldn't use it.
> 
> as far as the e-collar goes....if the only time you are using it is to zap him for this aggressive behavior, then you are only contributing to the problem. the e-collar must be introduced prior to this. uncle lou goes by the rule of 2. teach the dog 2 behaviors (down, or sit) using the e-collar. the dog learns to turn off the collar by doing what is asked. this light switch MUST go on for the dog prior to using it for any type of aggression control. he learns he gets zapped for unwanted behavior and that he can turn it off by doing what is asked. if you just slap it on there for aggression, the collar can increase this aggression because the dog may think it's being caused by the very people he's showing aggression to and make it worse.


Yes I can control him with the prone and voice, that's greatfully is not a problem anymore. It was when he first came to me a long time ago but not now. 
The major problem is this no warning complete calm to flying. The teaching him to bark and warn has help but I would like to stop the no warning thing altogether. 
On walks I don't let people reach out to pet him and always step to the side to let mainly men walk by. He will calmly sit and wait I've not had a problem unless they reach for me or refuss to listen and start for him and now he is warning. 
But I cant' trust him on a long lead in my front yard,(and he did not have on a prone) that is when he charged the guy, he did recall, but he gave no warning.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm no pro here and I don't have any experience with working with these types of dogs. With that said one thought that I have that may help to release some of his frustration and anxiety and to, hopefull, take some of the edge off of him is to exercise him tremendously prior to some of your "socialization" or "desensitization" sessions. Long walks might help in this regard. An even better exercise, imho, is to hit tennis balls to him and run the snot out of him! Of course that is contingent on him retrieving a ball (many dogs will) and if you have an isolated or enclosed area to do this. He'll be easier to work if he's well exercised, at least that's been my experience. Addtionally, these types of activites help significantly to build the bond with the dog. 

I would also like to add that it's much more difficult to resolve dog issues if there is not a solid obedience foundation already in existence. I'm not suggesting that's the case with your situation. But if he doesn't sit, down, stay, come, etc. very well, then that's something that needs to be addressed, issues or no issues. Having good communication, understanding, respect and rapport with the dog will go a long way to address any issue with a dog.

Good luck and please keep us posted on what happens.


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## Mike Armstrong (Mar 29, 2006)

You haven't mentioned the age or breed, which I suppose doesn't make that much difference. I'm am an inexperienced trainer, don't have the background that Jeff and others have (maybe I shouldn't be writing anything [-X ) and don't offer this as anything other than my limited experience. 

I've really only worked with one dog like yours - my current one, Nettie. Got her as 1-1/2-yr-old GSD from rescue with no known history and obviously little obedience. Iniitally, she was what I considered to be very fearful and acted aggressively toward most people and dogs. After I had her a few days, was at the vet's where she was fine for about 15 min. and then suddenly charged and barked at the doctor - scared the s#!t out of me and him.  He suggested we reconsider keeping her.

It's now 8 mos later and she's 95% or more improved. She still doesn't like the next door neighbor mowing the lawn, barks at meter readers and door-to-door salesmen [that's o.k.!] and will get agitated with some people that come to close when she's in the car. Her obedience is progressing nicely and she has done very well socializing with people and other dogs, even surprising me on her 3 trips to the new local dog park (where I said I would NEVER go . . . but this one is different - yeah, right!)

From day one, I took the role as her undisputed leader. I expose her as much as possible to other people and to be around other dogs, but not with the goal of being "friends" with all of them. I just keep working her with the idea that she WILL say calm around people and dogs and this seems to result in a reciprocal response from most other dogs, at least initially. I've been consistent with appropriate levels of corrections when necessary and use a prong collar a lot when I think it'll help. And, yes, sufficient daily exercise is absolutely critical.

I have no great inclination to "save" a rescue or shelter dog. I wouldn't hesitate to get rid of a dog that I felt was unstable, unpredicable or dangerous. After working with her, I don't think Nettie is. Trust her around my toddler grandkids? Nope, not for a moment. Someday? Maybe. I think it is and will always be an on-going process. It's something each dog owner needs to evaluate based on a reasonable assessment of the dog they have (maybe by someone else) and the knowledge, skills, attitude and committment they can bring to the training process. 

JMO :|


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Mike Armstrong said:


> You haven't mentioned the age or breed, which I suppose doesn't make that much difference. I'm am an inexperienced trainer, don't have the background that Jeff and others have (maybe I shouldn't be writing anything [-X ) and don't offer this as anything other than my limited experience.
> 
> I've really only worked with one dog like yours - my current one, Nettie. Got her as 1-1/2-yr-old GSD from rescue with no known history and obviously little obedience. Iniitally, she was what I considered to be very fearful and acted aggressively toward most people and dogs. After I had her a few days, was at the vet's where she was fine for about 15 min. and then suddenly charged and barked at the doctor - scared the s#!t out of me and him.  He suggested we reconsider keeping her.
> 
> ...


You all are great and I'm greatful for your help. I hope I can answer all the questions. I got Moses as a rescue as a pup and badly abused already by about 9 or 10 weeks. The shelter he was at was going to put him down because be had already biten everyone who tryed to touch him.
He is a Doberman/Chow/Pit/maby some Lab mix and is now 5 years old.
I do some training outside of my own dogs but Moses is a real challenge.
He has only bit me once when I first got him, and he thought his life had come to an end. He respects me and obeys me no problem. As long as I'm there to see what is happening first. He disllikes men greatly and only under my ok will he allow them close. 
Yes, he knows come, sit, down, stay or mine is wait, fine it, bring me my shoes, turn off the light, knows he can't go through a doorway before me, 
and walks at sloopy heel, and a bunch of other stuff I can't think of right now I done extra weird things with him to keep his mind busy.
I really have worked very hard with him, 
I do play a game kinda like frizbe in the back yard but the yard is not as big as it really should be for a good time of exercise and the walks are good. 
I would love to get to a point where he can run at least on a long lead and enjoy being a dog, without me having to worry if he is going to explode before I can catch it.
This has been his nature from the get go, calm to explode with LOTS of drive and focus. 
With me he is calm and submissive, but mainly with men he is completely the other way around. 
I can control him, but I do have some concerns if a man was to grab me or get in my space and staay there to long there would be a problem and he would need a hard correction. Maybe that is just what needs to happen. If I can find someone to be my ginnpig :idea: he will recall.
What do you think ? to dangerous ?


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## Mike Armstrong (Mar 29, 2006)

Valerie Oneill said:


> . . . What do you think ? to dangerous ?


Uh. . . yeah! You need professional help if you're going to keep this dog. Sounds like the aggression hasn't improved too much from the puppy stage at the shelter to 5 yrs. later. That's a lot of history to deal with. If this dog is to be rehabilitated, it'll take a lot of work with a really skilled trainer.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Armstrong said:


> Valerie Oneill said:
> 
> 
> > . . . What do you think ? to dangerous ?
> ...


I thought someone from here would pop on their bite suit and go to Kansas......

I know you've mentioned being in a rural area with no trainers, Valerie, but I wonder if you have contacted a club, maybe, to ask serious dog people about trainers? I know you have brought him from biting everyone to not biting you, but not to reliably not biting others. A pro could assess him, even if you had to get someone from some way off.

A professional assessment -- wouldn't that be a help?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What is the purpose of trying to salvage a dog like this? A pet for someone? Not in my lifetime would I turn over a dog to anyone with the history you've given. 
I hate to say it, but the best thing for this dog is to be put down. JMHO!


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> What is the purpose of trying to salvage a dog like this? A pet for someone? Not in my lifetime would I turn over a dog to anyone with the history you've given.
> I hate to say it, but the best thing for this dog is to be put down. JMHO!


I really respect all of you and want to thank you for your help. I know it is hard to see the whole picture from the few examples I've given. And you don't know me and have never seen this dog. I really do understand, I'd probably be saying the same types of things. 
He really has come a lot farther than I can try to ramble on on paper. 
He is hand controled and voice controled. I don't know what has cause this set back but I do know he is a dog worth working hard with.
Just so maybe you know how important dog safety is to me, I'm working with one of the schools to start a program to teach dog saftey. 
I am one of the biggest voices in this area and trying to get into as many place as possible to teach people all dogs will and can bite and it is the dog owners who need to protect the people around their dogs.
So please understand this is not a dog that is just treated like a "every day house pet" he is not and never will be. 
Sorry for being so wordy, I really do want to thank you for trying to help and not treating me like don't know completely anything.
I'm an OB trainer so for these last 5 years I've gotten on the job training of a different kind.
This has been like tring to stop the drive that I see most of the working dogs breeders want in there dogs. And that makes it very hard but not impossible. 

If any of you have sugguestion of things to do with him to train him to do that will help, I'm all ears.

Connie I have looked for trainers that are anything other than show or OB or pet store trainer want a be and have honestlly come up empty. 

That is why I turned to you all.
Tell me what work to do with him and I will do it other than what I'm doing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:I got Moses as a rescue as a pup and badly abused already by about 9 or 10 weeks. The shelter he was at was going to put him down because be had already biten everyone who tryed to touch him. 

From everything you have written, it sounds like the dog has genetic problems, and you will not be able to train that out of him. As far as training in general, keep at what you are doing, and maybe get a book of dog tricks, and teach those as well. At least you are trying hard, and keeping his mind stimulated.

Since you know he will bite, keep him from those situations (I know...DUUUUUHHH) and keep training him. I think that you will learn some really valuable things, and it will help you in your training.

As far as the abuse, anytime a shelter gets a dog with bad nerves, they say it is "abused" I have seen dogs that were never abused at any point in their life exhibit these behaviors. But then again, these are the same people that test for food aggression, or child aggression with rubber hands on a stick, and dolls. Not the brightest bulbs on the sign. :roll: :roll:


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff,
I was just fixing to write the same thing  

A pet peeve of mine is the "Oh, he was abused" explanation for a genetically fearful or weak dog. Obviously none of us have any idea of this dog's puppyhood but unless he was found with half healed burn marks, cuts or some other overt sign of continued cruelty the chances are far greater that a mix like that just has ingrained issues. All this coming from someone who has done more than my share of rescue and shelter work. I've seen a lot of genetically strong dogs overcome some tremendous abuse with few mental scars and known dogs from birth with enormous mental conditions. 

Although I'm NOT saying it is the case here, and obviously you are doing a lot to work with this dog (kudos to you for it!), it just bugs me that in many examples people use the "Oh, he was abused" line as a total excuse for an out of control dog. Truthfully, it keeps a lot of people from adopting perfectly good dogs because they fear the behavior problems misrepresented in "abused" dogs. Uggh.

Either way, best of luck with the boy. Like a few have said, I would continue to proof him to the situations, giving a strong well timed correction, be it via prong or e-collar.

-Kristina


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Kristina Senter said:


> Jeff,
> I was just fixing to write the same thing
> 
> A pet peeve of mine is the "Oh, he was abused" explanation for a genetically fearful or weak dog. Obviously none of us have any idea of this dog's puppyhood but unless he was found with half healed burn marks, cuts or some other overt sign of continued cruelty the chances are far greater that a mix like that just has ingrained issues. All this coming from someone who has done more than my share of rescue and shelter work. I've seen a lot of genetically strong dogs overcome some tremendous abuse with few mental scars and known dogs from birth with enormous mental conditions.
> ...


Thanks, to all of you !
Oh how a agree with the not so bright "But then again, these are the same people that test for food aggression, or child aggression with rubber hands on a stick, and dolls. Not the brightest bulbs on the sign"
I hate that when they take a poor starving dog give it a bowl of food and then stick a rubber hand in the food and pull the food away and except the dog to just stand there.... not to bright

I have come up with a different training plan that will cause him to have to either stop and sit then bark, lots more very controled walks and I have spoken with some friends who (is not a trainers) but is very good calm and good at setting a good baundarys and who have owed serveral either GSD or Dobermanns over the years. He and his wife are willing to help work with Moses, if we need to with a mussel on but my hope is that we can work him with out. Moses needs to know to men are not all bad. 
We are going to work on nutral ground. Mainly doing the same commands I do with him only with me there and just letting them walk him, uncontrol. I'll know in the first few min. if things will go easy or not. But I'll let you know.

I think I'm understanding a little more about the term you use when you say weak nerves. 
Even though Moses did get the tar beat out of him as a puppy, dogs live in the NOW. His over dislike for men is NOT from the abuse but from fear. Is this what you are saying? If so it will help me in how I reaact to his out bust.


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Valerie Oneill said:


> Kristina Senter said:
> 
> 
> > Jeff,
> ...


Thought I would give a short up date on Moses and what I've been doing.
Have some friends with a 40 acres that are willing to let me work him on a 50 foot lead and harness so he can run and run and run ....... in a safe conrtoled place. Them I'm taking him on very controled walks before he gets to rest. 
He LOVES the tall grass and all the smells of the country and gets REALLY tired.  and that a good thing.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> uncle lou goes by the rule of 2. teach the dog 2 behaviors (down, or sit) using the e-collar. the dog learns to turn off the collar by doing what is asked. this light switch MUST go on for the dog prior to using it for any type of aggression control. he learns he gets zapped for unwanted behavior and that he can turn it off by doing what is asked. if you just slap it on there for aggression, the collar can increase this aggression because the dog may think it's being caused by the very people he's showing aggression to and make it worse.


That's an excellent distillation of how I treat aggression Tim. Only it would take me 3X as long to get it out there. LOL. 

Here's an article from my website about a rehab of an extremely fear aggressive (probably the most common kind of aggression) dog that was done by someone who describes himself as a "novice" with the Ecollar. http://loucastle.com/simon.htm


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lou, in your opinion, how much can a geneticly fearful dog be controlled, and is it JUST controlled, not really saftly trained?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Lou, in your opinion, how much can a geneticly fearful dog be controlled, and is it JUST controlled, not really saftly trained?


Bob I think that this method of training with the Ecollar actually builds the dog's confidence. I'm not sure if you've seen the other rehab story that's on my website, about a dog named Roma, but I'd suggest that you take a look at it. At the end of that article http://loucastle.com/roma.htm is a brief explanation of why I think it has this effect. 

Briefly it says, "My theory on why this method works to give dogs confidence is that the dog is forced by an unseen force, the Ecollar, to stay in one place. The penalty for going into fight or flight as Roma was doing, is the discomfort of the stimulation."

In this case the dog was taught the recall on one day and the sit, which includes the sit at a distance, the next. Then she was placed into fearful situations and the sit was reinforced with the Ecollar used at low levels. The dog didn't go into fight or flight (as was her previous habit) because the Ecollar kept her in one place. And lo and behold, nothing bad happened to her. She didn't die and she didn't get hurt. Previously she'd either fought or fled. The fact that she'd survived fearful encounters made her believe that her survival was due to her response to the fearful situations. But now she had to hold her ground and she achieved success by doing that instead of her previous behavior. 

I think this goes far beyond just controlling the dog's behavior. Her confidence increased as a result of the training. This translated to less fear and therefore fewer (actually a complete stopping) of the fearful behaviors. 

Your question is rather specific in that it's asking about a "genetically fearful dog." I don't know if either Simon or Roma was "genetically fearful" or if the fear was due to the environment. But either way I think some improvement can be made with fearful dogs with the Ecollar. How much progress is up to the individual dog and the handler.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Lou! That makes a lot of sense. Excellent description as usual!


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > Lou, in your opinion, how much can a geneticly fearful dog be controlled, and is it JUST controlled, not really saftly trained?
> ...


Thanks, I don't know that Moses is "genetically fearful" either but this is very very good. And will use the training part of it, thanks.


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