# Malinois, GSD, Dutchie differences



## susan tuck

I'm moving my question here. I'm only interested in the opinions of people who actually train and/or breed in grip sports, PP, or train for military/police. I'm not asking about what people have "heard", I'm asking about actual personal experience:

IF you had 3 dogs, a good Malinois, a good Dutchie, a good (working line) GSD. If all 3 were EQUALLY good dogs, what differences would you expect to see as far as work ethic, ability, drives, trainability, etc., or would you see any differences at all (aside from the conformation)?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Yeah, it would be interesting to know if anyone in grip sports, military or LE looks at a dog besides, drives, bite quality, trainability, etc. If you have a preference for one of the three, all things, being equal, what is the basis for that preference? Oh, and please state whether you have lived with, trained/worked, all three or if part of your opinion is based upon what you have observed or heard of regarding other handler's dogs.


T


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## Jay Quinn

i don't have dutchie experience but i've lived with and worked GSDs and mals for patrol work / personal protection... it really depends on the individual dog but i find GSDs have a bit better "off" switch outside of work... at work they are a little bigger and more intimidating, especially a big black one... again depends on individual dog but they tend to be a bit slower than the mals, don't hit as hard, but there's a lot more weight in that hit... 

mals are crazy little fscks who can be harder to live with - you need to either wear them out, keep them amused, or keep them contained where they can't amuse themselves - or a combination of the above... people aren't as afraid of them because they are a smaller dog... they are incredible quick in their reactions when they strike and will still ruin someone's day... they also tend to live longer, therefore can work for longer, and don't suffer *as many* health issues as the GSDs do... 


as far as work ethic, drives etc go... i think it really depends on the lines of the dog and how much time you've got to put into training them... all of my dogs that i have worked have been chalk and cheese in terms of personality and how they interacted with me, regardless of breed... some were similar but none have ever been quite the same... look at the parents and the grandparents of the dog/litter and you can make a *guess* about what their drives and trainability will be like, but every dog is still going to be different... 

a previous boss of mine had an absolute c### of a dog - dominant as hell, just wanted to suit himself... couldn't work him, couldn't even demonstrate him, because he was more interested in eating the handler, the cameraman trying to film some OB, or would stand by and just look on while the handler was in an altercation... he has, however, produced some very nice pups who are nothing like him... go figure!


this prolly isn't the exact information you're looking for - but IMO it really comes down to the individual personalities of the dogs and there really aren't huge differences between the 3 breeds you're asking about...


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## Christopher Smith

susan tuck said:


> IF you had 3 dogs, a good Malinois, a good Dutchie, a good (working line) GSD. If all 3 were EQUALLY good dogs, what differences would you expect to see as far as work ethic, ability, drives, trainability, etc., or would you see any differences at all (aside from the conformation)?


Sue I think you are asking about the brain of the dog, so I will stick to mental aspects. Also I think of Dutch line Malinois and Dutch Shepherds are pretty much the same dogs wearing different coats. Come on, how different can littermates be? Further, there are differences in the Malinois lines also that are far bigger than the different lines of working GSDs. I think this diversity within the breed comes from the dogs being used in so many different sports. 

In general, Malinois are more reactive than GSDs. So even though the dogs do many of the same behaviors Malinois do it faster and bigger. This can be really nice in obedience and protection, but can make tracking a nightmare. 

GSDs are far more forgiving. You can teach a GSD something for years then change your mind and use high levels of compulsion to make the dog do it. So lets say you train a GSD to heel on your right side. Later you decide to change it to the left side. With a GSD you can put a pinch collar on the dog and start jerking it around until it heels on the left. Bad training but it works. With a Malinois you are either going to get bit or the dog pisses himself and runs away. It's rarely a shock to me when cops get bit by Malinois.

The Malinois is like a high dollar Italian sports car. Fast and powerful. Nothing on the street can touch it when drivin well. But you hit a pothole and there is thousands of dollars in damage and the car may never be right again. The GSD is like a muscle car. Not nearly as hard to drive. It's still really fast and powerful. It still handles better than most things on the road. And every junk yard in town has spares for cheap. 

Is that what you're looking for?


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## patricia powers

wish we had a like botton. i would "like" your post, chris


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## susan tuck

patricia powers said:


> wish we had a like botton. i would "like" your post, chris


me too! Thanks, Christopher!
8)


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## Hunter Allred

In my experience... I've gone back and completely retrained several things with my GSDs, but it wasn't with compulsion. It was actually with all positive during the teaching phase... it was not really hard to change a previous behavior. Watching some mal handlers reteach something (compulsion or motivationally), they seem much more resistant to changing an already learned and "working" behavior... like they are thinking "this is the way i've always done it, its always worked, F you I'm doing it the way I know will work".

the nice GSDs seem to be more interested in pleasing the handler than the Mals I've worked with or been around. The Mals were more focused on how to get paid. In general it seems GSDs are more affected by the handlers emotional state.

From my little experience, mals seem to be running more on instinct (following their drives) and GSDs seem to think a bit more specifically when that means being in conflict with the drive at hand.


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## Gillian Schuler

the nice GSDs seem to be more interested in pleasing the handler than the Mals I've worked with or been around. The Mals were more focused on how to get paid. In general it seems GSDs are more affected by the handlers emotional state.

I cannot subscribe to this in any way. My GSDs were more concerned with getting to the helper on their terms.

Both had excellent tracking qualitiies. The older was a b up the back in obedience in protection but excellent in the protection work itself. The younger was similar but better in obedience work. However this took months to engage him. Once engaged, he was fantastic.


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## Hunter Allred

Gillian Schuler said:


> the nice GSDs seem to be more interested in pleasing the handler than the Mals I've worked with or been around. The Mals were more focused on how to get paid. In general it seems GSDs are more affected by the handlers emotional state.
> 
> I cannot subscribe to this in any way. My GSDs were more concerned with getting to the helper on their terms.
> 
> Both had excellent tracking qualitiies. The older was a b up the back in obedience in protection but excellent in the protection work itself. The younger was similar but better in obedience work. However this took months to engage him. Once engaged, he was fantastic.


Thats fine, you don't have to subscribe to it... its just my "actual personal experience" as requested.


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## Gillian Schuler

What on earth is the difference????


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## Gillian Schuler

Hunter Allred said:


> Thats fine, you don't have to subscribe to it... its just my "actual personal experience" as requested.


What on earth is the difference??????


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## Hunter Allred

Gillian Schuler said:


> What on earth is the difference??????


OP asked for actual personal experiences. We could both handle/train/decoy for 20 mals, 20 dutchies, and 20 GSDs each. I could correctly draw conclusions from my experiences that are categorically wrong in your experiences. 

I could say "autumn foliage is all brown and not very colorful". You could say "I can't subscribe to that/I don't see that as true/etc, autumn foliage is very colorful"... but maybe you're in new england and thats true there... doesn't mean its true here. SO, I was simply saying "its just my experience, you don't have to extrapolate it to all mals (infact I discourage you from doing so), but it is my experience... use that info however you wish in whatever way it may be helpful to you".


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> the nice GSDs seem to be more interested in pleasing the handler than the Mals I've worked with or been around.


What do you mean by "worked with"? Have you ever lived with a Malinois?

In my experience Malinois and GSDs show the same amount of connection to the handler. I think the difference is the Malinois is more concentrated on his work and because of their drives they can be worked for a toy and many handlers fail to use the relationship because they can get away with not using it. Since most GSDs don't have that much drive for the toy you have to use a lot more relationship to get optimum results.

I think until you have lived with, and preferably raised and trained, a breed of dog you can't possibly have an educated opinion on the breeds personality traits.


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> What do you mean by "worked with"? Have you ever lived with a Malinois?
> 
> In my experience Malinois and GSDs show the same amount of connection to the handler. I think the difference is the Malinois is more concentrated on his work and because of their drives they can be worked for a toy and many handlers fail to use the relationship because they can get away with not using it. Since most GSDs don't have that much drive for the toy you have to use a lot more relationship to get optimum results.
> 
> I think until you have lived with, and preferably raised and trained, a breed of dog you can't possibly have an educated opinion on the breeds personality traits.


Where on earth did I say something as idiotic as " the nice GSD...... 

You have your lines crossed - I've never had a Mal not that maybe I'd not want one


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Smith said:


> What do you mean by "worked with"? Have you ever lived with a Malinois?
> 
> In my experience Malinois and GSDs show the same amount of connection to the handler. I think the difference is the Malinois is more concentrated on his work and because of their drives they can be worked for a toy and many handlers fail to use the relationship because they can get away with not using it. Since most GSDs don't have that much drive for the toy you have to use a lot more relationship to get optimum results.
> 
> I think until you have lived with, and preferably raised and trained, a breed of dog you can't possibly have an educated opinion on the breeds personality traits.


I said that. By worked with I meant, done helper work for, or aided in obedience. I meant, for example, here where I just got tagged on facebook "working with" a mal.

Incidentally, in the comments you can see the "ooooo... its that dog on TV" lol...

I'd say my male GSD is the epitome of focus and concentration btw, dare I say exceeding any other dog I've ever seen.

Also, we work with tons of toys. Plenty of drive for toys lol. 

The GSDs you seem to be describing are what I would call crap GSDs.


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## Hunter Allred

Gillian Schuler said:


> Where on earth did I say something as idiotic as " the nice GSD......
> 
> You have your lines crossed - I've never had a Mal not that maybe I'd not want one


How is "the nice GSDs" idiotic? I said that... I'm no idiot  Should I have said "the good GSDs" like the OP?


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## Jennifer Andress

I got a good lol out of "that's a stupid face the decoy is making," thanks.


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## Hunter Allred

Jennifer Andress said:


> I got a good lol out of "that's a stupid face the decoy is making," thanks.


The bane of doing helper work is the inevitable collage of ridiculous faces people amass of you.


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## Gillian Schuler

Hunter Allred said:


> How is "the nice GSDs" idiotic? I said that... I'm no idiot  Should I have said "the good GSDs" like the OP?


I think this is all getting a bit mixed up. On the other hand I have never experienced "nice" GSDs. I've experienced hard and weak GSDs.


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## Christopher Smith

Hunter Allred said:


> I'd say my male GSD is the epitome of focus and concentration btw, dare I say exceeding any other dog I've ever seen.


Come on Hunter, this is not about your dog. This is about breeds in general.


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Smith said:


> Come on Hunter, this is not about your dog. This is about breeds in general.


yeah, but we are talking about the "good ones" of each breed... I was just pointing out I don't see any issue with focus or concentration in "good GSDs". Really, amongst the good dogs of the three breeds I don't see a major difference. Once again, thats just from what I've seen

folks tend to measure everything against what the average gsd has become, not the good working line ones.


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## Gillian Schuler

Alfred Hunter said:

_folks tend to measure everything against what the average gsd has become, not the good working line ones._

I'll second that!


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## Hunter Allred

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think this is all getting a bit mixed up. On the other hand I have never experienced "nice" GSDs. I've experienced hard and weak GSDs.


I'm not sure we are on the same page, lexically... 

By "nice" did you interpret me as meaning "friendly"?


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## Christopher Smith

Hunter Allred said:


> yeah, but we are talking about the "good ones" of each breed... I was just pointing out I don't see any issue with focus or concentration in "good GSDs". Really, amongst the good dogs of the three breeds I don't see a major difference. Once again, thats just from what I've seen
> 
> folks tend to measure everything against what the average gsd has become, not the good working line ones.


Who says it's a problem or issue?


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## Erik Berg

I suppose a good dog for a certain job shouldn´t be that different regardless of the breed. As christopher said a malinois due to it´s more lively disposition and activitylevel have more big recations on things and therefore not always adapt to a situation so easily like a more calm and stable type of dog, thought and action happens more on the same time so the handler needs to be a step ahead and not 2 steps behind. So the biggest difference is probably that a malinois may need a trainer that can direct all that energy on the task, for example in tracking, where a GSD may adapt more naturally to the situation, a malinois maybe needs to learn to take it easy sometimes. 

I guess this is also a part of the malinois sucess as a sportdog, quick reactions and much drive gives a very flashy performance, both in obedience and protection. Not all breeders prefer the same type thou, just like some GSDs are more acting like a typical malinois. One breeder I know of has police/servicedogs as main goal, they prefer a malinois that thinks before it acts, a little more stability and a courageous dog, this is all realtive of course but this doesn´t sound so far from what some GSD breeders also prefer.


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## Hunter Allred

Erik Berg said:


> I suppose a good dog for a certain job shouldn´t be that different regardless of the breed. As christopher said a malinois due to it´s more lively disposition and activitylevel have more big recations on things and therefore not always adapt to a situation so easily like a more calm and stable type of dog, thought and action happens more on the same time so the handler needs to be a step ahead and not 2 steps behind. So the biggest difference is probably that a malinois may need a trainer that can direct all that energy on the task, for example in tracking, where a GSD may adapt more naturally to the situation, a malinois maybe needs to learn to take it easy sometimes.
> 
> I guess this is also a part of the malinois sucess as a sportdog, quick reactions and much drive gives a very flashy performance, both in obedience and protection. Not all breeders prefer the same type thou, just like some GSDs are more acting like a typical malinois. One breeder I know of has police/servicedogs as main goal, they prefer a malinois that thinks before it acts, a little more stability and a courageous dog, this is all realtive of course but this doesn´t sound so far from what some GSD breeders also prefer.


Simply put, I see lots of mals and my mal-like GSD who do a thing in high drive and then go "F... I shouldn't have done that" and autocorrect without me having to correct. My male never does that. If he's doing a thing, he's decided it was the correct thing. When I correct him for it, he decides to change his mind. The mals aren't making mistakes per se, but I think its losing control of that instinct for a split second.


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## Christopher Jones

The thing with the Malinois, like Christopher Smith said, is the large difference between character traits of Malis from different bloodlines. It doesnt matter what type of dog you like you will find it in the malinois. 
In general you have to be a better trainer with malis as one poorly timed reward or correction can give you a bad habit you will need to try and fix. Footstep tracking IPO style is easier with a GSD. Less conflict generally with GSDs. Easier to rehome than a mali. Calmer and less prone to destroy stuff than a mali.
Malis mature quicker than GSDs. Malis have more drive and more better drive than a GSD. Malis need less "help and baby8ng" in bite work than a GSD. GSDs are more bluff and bluster than a mali. Malis are faster and when seen in competition against GSDs the GSD can unfairly look slow and lacking intensity. GSDs when stressed or go into avoidence can be alot harder to get them back into drive. (This is one area where a mali is more forgiving than a GSD). Malis more prone to sore pads and car sickness than a GSD but a GSD is more prone to hip and elbow problems. Alot more fools gold with GSD pups.


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Jones said:


> The thing with the Malinois, like Christopher Smith said, is the large difference between character traits of Malis from different bloodlines. It doesnt matter what type of dog you like you will find it in the malinois.
> In general you have to be a better trainer with malis as one poorly timed reward or correction can give you a bad habit you will need to try and fix. Footstep tracking IPO style is easier with a GSD. Less conflict generally with GSDs. Easier to rehome than a mali. Calmer and less prone to destroy stuff than a mali.
> Malis mature quicker than GSDs. Malis have more drive and more better drive than a GSD. Malis need less "help and baby8ng" in bite work than a GSD. GSDs are more bluff and bluster than a mali. Malis are faster and when seen in competition against GSDs the GSD can unfairly look slow and lacking intensity. GSDs when stressed or go into avoidence can be alot harder to get them back into drive. (This is one area where a mali is more forgiving than a GSD). Malis more prone to sore pads and car sickness than a GSD but a GSD is more prone to hip and elbow problems. Alot more fools gold with GSD pups.


remember... we are talking about good dogs, not the average lol. the GSD you just described is a shitter. You stand a much better chance of getting a good mal than a good GSD for a given purchase... but don't believe that was the OP's intent.


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## Christopher Jones

Hunter Allred said:


> remember... we are talking about good dogs, not the average lol. the GSD you just described is a shitter. You stand a much better chance of getting a good mal than a good GSD for a given purchase... but don't believe that was the OP's intent.


Alot of what I said is about "good" german shepherds.


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Jones said:


> Alot of what I said is about "good" german shepherds.


maybe you've not seen many "good" ones. the fact that you quoted "good" speaks volumes of whether you believe a GSD can actually even be good. If a dog goes into avoidance during protection and can't recover, it probably doesn't belong on the field in the first place... I've seen GSDs do it. I've seen Mals do it, I've seen other breeds do it. I have *not* seen good Mals do that, and I have *not* seen good GSDs do that, and I have *not* seen good mutts do it.

Katya's as fast as any other dog I've come across, and there's no lack of drive... whats "more better drive"?

When I read your post, aside from the fact that hip/elbow def plagues GSDs more, what I saw was a comparison of the differences between a good *dog*, to those of a not so good *dog*.


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## Larry Krohn

I've worked with trained and lived with all three. All three have great drive, but my mal is the craziest. My GS is the greatest house dog ever and my Dutchie is great to work with but not as impressive as my mal and great in the house but not quite as perfect as my GS. So if you average it all out my Dutchie wins but again that is just these individual dogs


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## Christopher Jones

I would be more than happy to compare the numbers and quality of GSDs I have owned, bred and trained compared to what you have. GSDs I have personally bred are in police departments, prison riot dogs, military dogs, etc. Dogs I have bred have been picked out by SV SchH judges as dogs they would take home with them. GSDs bred by me have been tested by the military and have been chosen as outside stud dogs.
Would love to hear what you have bred etc.


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Jones said:


> I would be more than happy to compare the numbers and quality of GSDs I have owned, bred and trained compared to what you have. GSDs I have personally bred are in police departments, prison riot dogs, military dogs, etc. Dogs I have bred have been picked out by SV SchH judges as dogs they would take home with them. GSDs bred by me have been tested by the military and have been chosen as outside stud dogs.
> Would love to hear what you have bred etc.


Didn't say I had more experience than you, its not a pissing match dude... reeeelaaaxx... All I'm saying, is if your definition of a "good" GSD is what you described above, is not what I'd describe as a good GSD as my definition of a good GSD is held to a higher standard that what you've described. I've seen GSDs at police depts that I'm horrified are working the street... so that isn't the end all, be all...


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## Christopher Jones

Hunter Allred said:


> Didn't say I had more experience than you, its not a pissing match dude... reeeelaaaxx... All I'm saying, is if your definition of a "good" GSD is what you described above, is not what I'd describe as a good GSD as my definition of a good GSD is held to a higher standard that what you've described. I've seen GSDs at police depts that I'm horrified are working the street... so that isn't the end all, be all...


You were the one who decided to call into question ythr accuracy of my post. As I said im happy to compare the quality of GSDs I have been with. 
I think you would find my expectations are extremely high, and hence my observations.
Using you logic of only comparing the 1 in 100 awesome GSD to the best malis then this thread is a bust. For every trait people have said a GSD has over a mali I will find you a mali that matches it. There are malis just as calm as a GSD, malis just as easy to train tracking with as a GSD and so on. We are comparing the good normally occuring GSD with the same in a mali. Not freak against freak.


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## David Baker

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think this is all getting a bit mixed up. On the other hand I have never experienced "nice" GSDs. I've experienced hard and weak GSDs.



When he says "good" or "nice" he means good quality. Not "good" or "nice" in its demeanor. 


Look, im a fan of mals and dutchies as well, my next dog will most likely be a Mal, but to say that a WL GSD doesn't have toy drive, is simply retarded. (and if anyone is offended by me using the term retarded, take the dress off and put on some pants) Every one of my GSD's, one of them not even being a WL back in the day, would jump through a brick wall for a toy. They may not have Mal drive, but its apples and oranges. To make a blanket statement saying that WL GSD's dont have toy drive, is ridiculous to say the least. My current GSD would take his kong/ball/tug/rope/all of the above, over a bowl of food even if he hadn't eaten in 2 days.


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## Hunter Allred

Christopher Jones said:


> You were the one who decided to call into question ythr accuracy of my post. As I said im happy to compare the quality of GSDs I have been with.
> I think you would find my expectations are extremely high, and hence my observations.
> Using you logic of only comparing the 1 in 100 awesome GSD to the best malis then this thread is a bust. For every trait people have said a GSD has over a mali I will find you a mali that matches it. There are malis just as calm as a GSD, malis just as easy to train tracking with as a GSD and so on. We are comparing the good normally occuring GSD with the same in a mali. Not freak against freak.


I didn't say your observations were inaccurate... 

Obviously, nothing is absolute... there are always exceptions. I can find any trait in ANY breed if I look long and hard enough for it.

Good "normally occurring" wasn't my interpretation of thread. I read that as "top quality" versus "top quality". The good, normally occurring, above the average GSD is nothing impressive to me in my experience. The below average mal is probably just as good.


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## Bob Scott

I think a "good" GSD or a "good" Mal" is relative to what the individual wants or expects in the dog.
Fortunately for those that know where and how to put the effort into finding a "good" one.


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## Kevin Cyr

Christopher Smith said:


> Sue I think you are asking about the brain of the dog, so I will stick to mental aspects. Also I think of Dutch line Malinois and Dutch Shepherds are pretty much the same dogs wearing different coats. Come on, how different can littermates be? Further, there are differences in the Malinois lines also that are far bigger than the different lines of working GSDs. I think this diversity within the breed comes from the dogs being used in so many different sports.
> 
> In general, Malinois are more reactive than GSDs. So even though the dogs do many of the same behaviors Malinois do it faster and bigger. This can be really nice in obedience and protection, but can make tracking a nightmare.
> 
> GSDs are far more forgiving. You can teach a GSD something for years then change your mind and use high levels of compulsion to make the dog do it. So lets say you train a GSD to heel on your right side. Later you decide to change it to the left side. With a GSD you can put a pinch collar on the dog and start jerking it around until it heels on the left. Bad training but it works. With a Malinois you are either going to get bit or the dog pisses himself and runs away. It's rarely a shock to me when cops get bit by Malinois.
> 
> The Malinois is like a high dollar Italian sports car. Fast and powerful. Nothing on the street can touch it when drivin well. But you hit a pothole and there is thousands of dollars in damage and the car may never be right again. The GSD is like a muscle car. Not nearly as hard to drive. It's still really fast and powerful. It still handles better than most things on the road. And every junk yard in town has spares for cheap.
> 
> Is that what you're looking for?


Great Post all around!


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## Erik Berg

GSDs also comes in different shapes, even if they have been breed for IPO, some more stable and tougher in general, others more sporty and some a combination of both. Why must the GSD be able to compete with the malinois anyway in sport, is close to 100p in obedeince and protection a sign of quality that proves the dog is the best wellrounded PSD? Does it make him better in crowdcontroll or tough trackingconditions? 

Looking at competitions it´s also very small details who place on the podium, the most impressive dogs are not always the best placing either, so to strive for the GSD to be the ultimate sportdog I think will harm the breed than do good. I don´t know what is the difference between a freak GSD and a normally good one either, both in breedings and competitions, the better breeders of GSDs in my opinion are not using lesser dogs than many malinois breeders. Health concerns like HD/ED also vary much between what lines we talk about.

Looking at the results of the policedogchampionship(in sweden) this year, it was roughly the same numbers of mals and GSDs, a mal placed 1, a GSD 2, and a dutchie placed third. The dutchie was the best trackingdog but then there were more GSDs with higher scores in tracking than malinois. Coincidence maybe, but my point is great obedience and reckless attacks are maybe not the indicator of which dog is overall the best for the job. Even heard from long time malinoisbreeders they think it´s a shame people give up on the GSD for a flashier more sporty type of dog is easier to win with.

So in short, it seems what you look for when saying a breed is better than other, if extreme speed and a very quick reacting dog is a measurement of the best dogs then of course the malinois will have an edge. This doesn´t mean there are plenty of mediocre and unhealthy GSDs, but in this discussion it was good dogs of both breeds, not wich breed is the best overall.


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## Ken Seminatore

In my opinion, all these breeds are good for work provided their breeding is good.


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## Matt Vandart

Ken Seminatore said:


> In my opinion, all these breeds are good for work provided their breeding is good.


This and other breeds too.
All this 'Are Mal/dutch/GSD better' is so much bullshit. It's the dog in front of you that is the 'Good dog'.
It could be anything GSD/Mal/Dutch/Doberman/Rotty/Pitt/Bulldog/EBT/Bouv/Russian Terrier/Kelpie ....even a mutt.
You can find examples of all of these and more that are good working dogs.

My missus old man had a big Border collie I wouldn't have ****ed with that was 100% obedient and willing to take on a man.

This is more a question of who is breeding the best working dog breed on average. That I do not know, but it sure as shit aint the Doberman, lol.

More specific criteria are required to even come close to answering the OP question. What makes a good working dog? Then these answers will be subjective and it will all go round the houses again and then we can all argue about drives.......:mrgreen:


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## susan tuck

Matt Vandart said:


> This and other breeds too.
> All this 'Are Mal/dutch/GSD better' is so much bullshit. It's the dog in front of you that is the 'Good dog'.
> It could be anything GSD/Mal/Dutch/Doberman/Rotty/Pitt/Bulldog/EBT/Bouv/Russian Terrier/Kelpie ....even a mutt.
> You can find examples of all of these and more that are good working dogs.
> 
> My missus old man had a big Border collie I wouldn't have ****ed with that was 100% obedient and willing to take on a man.
> 
> This is more a question of who is breeding the best working dog breed on average. That I do not know, but it sure as shit aint the Doberman, lol.
> 
> More specific criteria are required to even come close to answering the OP question. What makes a good working dog? Then these answers will be subjective and it will all go round the houses again and then we can all argue about drives.......:mrgreen:


Actually my question was very simple and quite specific. I purposely did NOT ask which is the better breed. I asked what the differences would be in 3 equally good dogs. I asked what differences would be as far as work ethic, ability, drives, trainability. I purposely limited my question to the Malinois, GSD and Dutchie. I asked the question relative to grip sports, law enforcement and personal protection. I asked for opinions only from people who have worked or bred or handled the breeds because I don't care about the opinions of computer trainers who don't have hands on experience with whatever breeds they were going to talk about.

Christopher actually did a very good job of answering my question.


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## Matt Vandart

susan tuck said:


> Actually my question was very simple and quite specific. I purposely did NOT ask which is the better breed. I asked what the differences would be in 3 equally good dogs. I asked what differences would be as far as work ethic, ability, drives, trainability. I purposely limited my question to the Malinois, GSD and Dutchie. I asked the question relative to grip sports, law enforcement and personal protection. I asked for opinions only from people who have worked or bred or handled the breeds because I don't care about the opinions of *computer trainers* who don't have hands on experience with whatever breeds they were going to talk about.
> 
> Christopher actually did a very good job of answering my question.


Sorry I seem to have got this and the other thread cross wired.

Lol'd at the computer trainer bit, you seem to have me mixed up with someone else I'm afraid......


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## Tony Hahn

The question posed by the OP wasn't asking what breed is best or even which one is better for any given purpose.

What was being asked is what are the DIFFERENCES between the breeds. Not a comparison of which is the better working dog but rather what sets them apart from one another.

This interests me greatly and I've been following this thread closely. A few people have posted their observations. 

I hope more folks will post their observations of the differences between breeds. Even if it amounts to nothing more than anecdotal based on observing just single samples of dogs it's still interesting and informative.

ETA- This wasn't directed towards Matt or anyone in particular at all. Some interesting info has been posted and it would be nice to read more observations on the differences.


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## Matt Vandart

Hey Tony hows it going dude! You thinking of getting another GSD or maybe a Mal this time  or even a Dutch!


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## susan tuck

Matt Vandart said:


> Sorry I seem to have got this and the other thread cross wired.
> 
> Lol'd at the computer trainer bit, you seem to have me mixed up with someone else I'm afraid......


Sorry Matt, my reference to "computer trainer" was in no way leveled at you.
8)

I'm just trying to filter out the opinions of those who opinions are based on what they've seen on the Internet, but who never actually worked first hand with the various breeds in the specified arenas.


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## Tony Hahn

Matt Vandart said:


> Hey Tony hows it going dude! You thinking of getting another GSD or maybe a Mal this time  or even a Dutch!


Hi Matt,

Yeah, I'm considering it. I'm trying to learn about the Dutch Shepherd. It's difficult to beat a good GSD as an all around "second best at everything" dog, but I enjoy working with fast, motivated, high drive dogs. I really, really miss my Dobermann but I'm not sure I want to take another chance with one.

It can be difficult to get comparisons. Lots of folks are eager to say how great thier favorite breed is but I want to know the general differences that people have observed.


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## Matt Vandart

Tony:
Cool man! Good to see the heart is moving forward maybe? 
Every Dutch I have met so far has been awesome, really fun dogs! Very motivated, fast and high drive, but then I have only met good examples with proper jobs.

Like I said in the other thread, I would love a GSD one day but they just all seem to physically big for my liking, (you know I love a little dog!) love their temperament, definitely a dog for when I am old and want a slower but steady worker, it'll have to be a bitch though so I can't see that working out somehow, lol.

Seeing as I am posting here now, on the OP's actual question, I had a conversation with a bunch of LE Handlers that were all re-certifying their dogs, some were coming up for retirement and were talking about breeds they were considering as their 'retirement dog'. It was a very interesting conversation of which I can't remember everything (we were in the hotel bar) and they all said hands down a good GSD beats the rest and every one of them had a favourite in their career and if I remember correctly all but one was a GSD, the one that wasn't was a Dutch, his current dog which was a big black Male with a massive head and a very serious bite.
He is in an armed response team and his dog is said to be 'too much' for a 'regular deployment' but this dog will buzz around the bar saying hello to everyone, incredible off switch, awesome dog, I think if I remember correctly his sire was a dog called 'Tommy' (Luijken? I think) I can't remember the dogs Dam.

Anyway their reasoning was that Mali's are too much and NEED a real job, many are a nervy and/or reactive, obviously the good ones not so, but tended to be too small for what this team were after although they did have a few Mali's, Dutch were very high drive very fast but less 'headfk' if you get me, bit more weight behind them and GSD were a dog you like around the house as well as on the job they said of the three the GSD is the more 'honest dog' something I hear time and again of the old time LE handlers, havn't actually got to the bottom of what they mean on that yet, lol.

Susan- No worries!
Hope this bit has actually been of assistance. I can't give you handlers/owners feedback of my own having only owned Malinois out of that list but can talk to you all day about why dobermans are better if you want.....lol


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## Tony Hahn

Some days are better than others. Reading and researching is somewhat therapeutic. Because of my work schedule it's going to be a couple years before I'll be able to raise another puppy so I've got time to decide on both a breed and breeder.

What I'd like to find is the Dobermann's temperament, drive and athleticism in a sturdy, healthy breed. Sounds like the Dutch Sheperd *might* fit that description, but on the other hand if the DS is nothing more than a brindle Malinois, perhaps it's not the breed I'm looking for........

Guys like me will only own a few dogs in a lifetime so I've got to rely on other peoples observations to get info on a variety of dogs/breeds.


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> Sorry Matt, my reference to "computer trainer" was in no way leveled at you.
> 8)
> 
> I'm just trying to filter out the opinions of those who opinions are based on what they've seen on the Internet, but who never actually worked first hand with the various breeds in the specified arenas.


Sue,

how many of us have worked with all three breeds? 

How can one compare a GSD one has worked with to a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd?

You have my sympathy.

Gill


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## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sue,
> 
> how many of us have worked with all three breeds?
> 
> How can one compare a GSD one has worked with to a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd?
> 
> You have my sympathy.
> 
> Gill


hahaha thanks, no sympathy needed here. I am asking the question of people who have worked at least 2 of the breeds or better still, all 3. Helpers work multiple breeds, as do professional trainers, even amateurs have experience with multiple breeds. You do, just not the breeds I am asking about in this thread. 

It's a simple question, no need to over complicate. I am asking about BREED differences, nothing more nothing less.


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sue,
> 
> how many of us have worked with all three breeds?


Many people in the the US have. I have owned all three if those breeds plus a few more. 



> How can one compare a GSD one has worked with to a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd?


You work them a lot of them then form an opinion based on that experience. That's probably why Sue asked for the opinion from those that have worked all three breeds. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Haz Othman

Just did a little session with a Dutch today 3 yr old female. Also, had one living with me last summer 1 yr old female, and have had several GSDs over the years.

The Dutchies were both faster, smaller and more agile. The one I dealt with today was a prey monster. Had never seen a tug before, just played fetch with her owner. She was hesitent at first, but once I got the prey drive going its like she switched into overdrive and you really understand what people are talking about when they say Dutchies/Mals are generally like high end sports cars.

Everything became lightning fast balls to the wall intense. Super fun dog and smart as a whip training with her is going to be a blast. She is a touch nervy here and there, but when you engage the prey drive it all goes away. I plan to use that to make her more confident and overcome some of her fears like gunfire. 

Both Dutchies had some issues settling in the house, both are a touch nervy (neither were from esteemed breeding programs), both are safe around people and other dogs.

All my GSDs including the one I have now that I consider high drive are/were slower, a bit slower to learn, less prey drive and intensity in the play, less eager to please.
I love GSDs for their looks and personality but Im going to get me a nice Dutchie/Mal at some point for sport work/fun. 
Just my two cents.


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