# Does Neutering Significantly Reduce Drives?



## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

Hello to everyone.

I've been off the forum for a very long time, but I still turn to the collective experience on this forum when I have a serious question.

For those of you who know me, we finally decided to put Dominic up for adoption and we've found a very good home. Boring details aside, the husband has had GSDs for 15 years and a Belgian Shepherd (Groenendael) before that, and he trained over in Germany for several years before moving back to the States with his dogs (military). 

We "advertised" Dominic as being neutered because we had every intention of getting it done before allowing him to leave our property, but this gentleman has asked if we would consider leaving him intact instead. He has no intention of breeding him, but his concern is with Dominic's drives. Dom has very, very looooow drives (pick one, any one), and the concern is that neutering him will lower them even further. His plans are just to do OB with him, but he uses a lot of prey/ball drive to train.

So back to my subject line...

Does neutering significantly reduce drives? Is there a noticeable difference? Is it a legitimate concern if he plans to work with Dom?

And yes, he is the type of person that I believe would never breed Dominic or I wouldn't have even considered placing him in the home .

Thanks, as always.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

"_And yes, he is the type of person that I believe would never breed Dominic or I wouldn't have even considered placing him in the home ._"

Just a thought- but I would say if you found the dog a good home, someone you feel is reliable and responsible, why not let the dog go to him intact ?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree, if it is a good home, I would let him go intact. If it would make you feel any better, can you sell an adult dog on a limited registration with AKC?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Unless he is under two, nothing changes with neutering.


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm normally a big spay/neuter advocate because of uneducated or irresponsible owners, and I was pretty set on neutering Dominic before adopting him out because I firmly believe that his genetics would not be an asset to the breed...

However, I wouldn't mind letting this guy keep him intact because I trust his intentions.

The problem is my partner, Chelsea, feels very strongly on the subject - always has, always will, and especially after her work with shelters/rescues - and Dominic is her dog. Ultimately it's her decision.

I'm just asking about the impact (if any) on his drives to decide if this is an issue worth arguing with Chelsea. If leaving him intact will really make his new owner's job easier (by being able to utilize what little drive he has), then I'll push it.


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Unless he is under two, nothing changes with neutering.


Jeff, he turned 3 last week.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm assuming he's trying to be competitive with him in some venue? There are tons of neutered dogs that do competitive obedience. To a point, I think you can do some drive building, but in the end, they've either got the drive or they don't. If he doesn't, taking away most of his testosterone ain't going to make it any worse or better. If his drives are_ that_ low anyway, why even bother competing with him? Just neuter him and adopt him out to be an active pet. There's quite a few shelter/rescue dogs who have excellent ball and/or food drive. That's often how they ended up in rescue in the first place is because they were driving their original owners crazy (lots of labs and border collies in that category!). :roll:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Alicia Mertz said:


> Does neutering significantly reduce drives? Is there a noticeable difference? Is it a legitimate concern if he plans to work with Dom?


WHAT? Neutering stops the chances for breeding. Poor genetics equals poor drives! A mean spirited person will always be mean spirited, neutered or not. Dogs are no different in my book. :-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

After two nothing changes. Howard, reading comprehension is important. She doesn't want to breed, and neither does the guy she is giving the dog to.

The question was if there is a drop in drive if the dog gets neutered. LOL

Nice one spas.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sex drives or bite drives is how I viewed it. I can still make out some of those big words Jeff! :wink:


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

I agree that in this case I don't think it will make a difference.

However, if you have a high drive dog that likes to hump the sleeve after conquering the helper, I would think it would effect his drives. There have been studies of both human and animal that suggest a link between sex and aggression.


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

I'll take that as a resounding "no", then. LOL Thanks for the input. Off he goes to be neutered.

Maren - This guy isn't planning to be competitive with Dominic. He just does OB with his dogs to give them a bit of a mental workout, and since Dom already has A.D.D. and low drives, he was just worried that neutering him might make him even more difficult to...focus (only word I can think of).

As always, you guys gave me exactly what I needed. Thanks!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, if he's just going to be an active pet and wants to do obedience as a hobby, I'd say go ahead and neuter him. If the drives aren't there, they aren't there. There's plenty of well mannered neutered dogs out there. There's a decent chance he could be actually more focused if he was neutered, particularly around intact bitches in estrus, even miles away. Definitely why geldings are so popular. 

Might as well make sure that if that's not desirable that those genes don't remain in the gene pool as God knows how many people are like "oh, sure I won't breed him!" *wink wink, fingers behind the back* and next thing you notice is 4 months later an ad in the paper for "outstanding German working line German shepherd puppies: $200!" :roll: And by then, he's not your dog any more, so it's out of your hands. A real test would be that if he insists on keeping him intact, just offer to go get him a vasectomy instead. If he balks, you may know what you're dealing with...


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren - I was actually joking last night that we should just get a vasectomy. It's a win-win for everyone. Chelsea feels comfortable with the fact that Dom can't impregnate any females, and the new owner gets to keep the testosterone. ...But I was just kidding. They really do vasectomies for dogs?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, if he's just going to be an active pet and wants to do obedience as a hobby, I'd say go ahead and neuter him. If the drives aren't there, they aren't there. There's plenty of well mannered neutered dogs out there. There's a decent chance he could be actually more focused if he was neutered, particularly around intact bitches in estrus, even miles away. Definitely why geldings are so popular.
> 
> With kids horses at least one major reason for gelding is to make the animal more docile, calmer, which I believe is why geldings as riding horses are more popular (at least it was that way around here when I had horses, things maybe have changed.)
> 
> I ran into one of the rangers while I was hiking with my dog a couple years ago, she has a young male sable GSD she is training in SAR. She told me she had him neutered for exactly the reason Maren stated, so that he would be more focused.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Alicia Mertz said:


> Maren - I was actually joking last night that we should just get a vasectomy. It's a win-win for everyone. Chelsea feels comfortable with the fact that Dom can't impregnate any females, and the new owner gets to keep the testosterone. ...But I was just kidding. They really do vasectomies for dogs?


Yes, it's a very simple 5 minute procedure if you find someone who will do it. I've done it on male mice in grad school and it'd be simple to learn with practice. I would certainly offer it to clients who wanted to keep their animals intact for a time, but didn't want them to be able to be bred. In general, if it was an average pet owning client, full castration would be the way to go, but if it was a larger breed where staying intact long may be beneficial, I'd offer it as an option. I'd still get him all the way neutered depending on his age. Just about all intact males will show signs of benign prostatic hyperplasia just like human males as they age.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My 12 yr old, nuetered JRT still tries to piss higher, farther and more often then either one of my intact GSDs. He was nutted about 2 1/2 yrs old and nobody's told him yet! :roll: 
Before 2yrs is totally dependant on the dog. Before 1 yr is a disaster, IMHO!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Then there's Zoso who started lifting his leg at about 3 years of age, particularly off home turf...and was neutered at 4 months?  I chalk that one up to too much testosterone in utero, I think. Silly boys!


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> My 12 yr old, nuetered JRT still tries to piss higher, farther and more often then either one of my intact GSDs. He was nutted about 2 1/2 yrs old and nobody's told him yet! :roll:
> Before 2yrs is totally dependant on the dog. Before 1 yr is a disaster, IMHO!


Our pug was neutered at 5 months, when he started lifting his leg, and he's 6 yrs old now and marks more than my intact GSD. He'll spend an hour outside doing nothing but marking. Most of the time nothing even comes out. He'll mark, turn around sniff, then hit the same spot from the other direction.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

My bitch was spayed at 18 months and she lifts her leg and marks everything in sight! It didn't diminish her drives at all. 

That said Judge isn't neutered and probably won't be for awhile, he's only 17 months old. 

Courtney


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I know many judges that haven't been neutered but should have been according to their amorous intentions.........

Quite seriously, I've had about five male dogs, one neutred at 11 yrs. for enlarged testicle but the others were allowed to remain intact.

Why neuter a dog just because you don't want to breed from him.......... Fill the vet's purse for one or educate the dog for another. 

Sorry, me no understand.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here in the US, neutering is shoved down our throats as a way to keep down the number of dogs in shelters, even though it has never shown to have made a dent, they pass laws in certain towns that you have to have your dog fixed.

I have had too many people neuter a dog, and then see what is being bred, and say how stupid they were to have neutered their dog. It is touted as responsible ownership. Apparently, responsibility does not include keeping your dog from randomly breeding, as we are too stupid, so they must be neutered.

It is becoming clear that neutering is not the super healthy thing that I was told about OH so many times. I have heard about the rampant testicular cancer that exists in .0000000003% of all dogs and how if I do not neuter my dogs will get cancer. Knock on wood, I have had a lot of dogs and no cancer of the testicles.

To me it is a money maker for the vets, and that is all. At 100 plus a pop, for a 5 minute surgery, I can see why they would promote it.


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

Believe me, I'm not one of those fanatics that believes every dog has to be spayed or neutered. I'm just not willing to be responsible for the ignorance or irresponsibility of other people.

I'm with you, Jeff - I don't believe it's oh so healthy, nor do I think it's going to drastically cut down on dogs in shelters. Seems as though the people who are concerned enough about the overpopulation problem to spay or neuter their pet are the same people who would make sure their dog didn't "randomly breed".

Anyway... As I said originally, not my decision (at least not 100%), but the discussion has now changed from "neuter or not neuter" to "neuter or get a vasectomy". My regular small animal vet, who normally puts up with my crazy crap, laughed at me. My equine vet, however, laughed...and then said it actually sounded like a decent idea. He's supposed to be doing some research and calling me back. Thanks Maren.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dr. Bling...NEXT!:-o 8-[


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## Sara Findley (Feb 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here in the US, neutering is shoved down our throats as a way to keep down the number of dogs in shelters, even though it has never shown to have made a dent, they pass laws in certain towns that you have to have your dog fixed.
> 
> I have had too many people neuter a dog, and then see what is being bred, and say how stupid they were to have neutered their dog. It is touted as responsible ownership. Apparently, responsibility does not include keeping your dog from randomly breeding, as we are too stupid, so they must be neutered.
> 
> ...


 yeah and San Antonio has that mandatory spay and nueter law that just passed.. [-(


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree with Jeffs definintion of "responsible dog ownership", and I do not believe the definition requires neutering, although I would definetly stop short of calling this campagn a veterinarian conspiracy to make money. I do NOT like the attitude I have seen in a couple of veterinary practices of vets practically running roughshod over clients from the minute they bring in an 8 week old pup "OK, LET'S MAKE THE APPOINTMENT TO NEUTER YOUR DOG NOW". No asking the owner what the plans are for the dog, no asking if the owner is considering neutering" just assuming it's a "done deal" and 'LET'S DO IT AT 6 MONTHS" which is also REALLY wrong.[-X


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't know any vets in the area who really make money on spays and neuters. Most do it really near to cost to supplies and for anesthesia, bloodwork, fluids, etc. I know I will! Neuters can be done in 5-10 minutes and spays in 10-15 minutes (though I saw one take nearly an hour because it was a morbidly obese lab, yuck!), but spays in particular are still invasive major abdominal surgeries that would cost tens of thousands of dollars for human women. Don't forget, you're paying for the doctor's time and expertise, not just the cost of supplies (which is always a pet peeve of mine when people complain when they feel a vet charged them a nickel over the cost of supplies). 

Anyways, like we had a discussion a while back on, for the average pet owner, spaying and neutering makes good sense. Perhaps not right away for the performance or working dog, but I think that's why it's important to have a questionaire about a new patient/client. That way, I'll know who I'm dealing with and what their goals are for their dog. Dogs that are already owned by someone should be treated as individuals, though dogs from shelters are treated more like a herd (shelter medicine is closer in many respects to herd health medicine for food animals than small animal) and in that respect, I feel it's best to castrate that animal when it leaves, whether 8 weeks, 8 months, or 8 years. It's more a utilitarian approach, if that makes sense.

If it's an owned coach potato or weekend warrior pet, I also don't have any major issues with spaying or neutering all but the very large and giant breed dogs at 6 months either. Your average poorly bred American Rottweiler is still way more likely to end up in the pound or euthanized because of behavior/temperament problems (perhaps they shouldn't have been bred for in the first place?) or because of overpopulation than ever get osteosarcoma or hemangiosarcoma, where there is a possible link to very early spay/neuter. Don't get me wrong, I don't insist on spaying or neutering, but for average pet owners (which you guys are not necessarily), it's really the best way to go.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't know any vets in the area who really make money on spays and neuters. Most do it really near to cost to supplies and for anesthesia, bloodwork, fluids, etc. I know I will! Neuters can be done in 5-10 minutes and spays in 10-15 minutes (though I saw one take nearly an hour because it was a morbidly obese lab, yuck!), but spays in particular are still invasive major abdominal surgeries that would cost tens of thousands of dollars for human women. Don't forget, you're paying for the doctor's time and expertise, not just the cost of supplies (which is always a pet peeve of mine when people complain when they feel a vet charged them a nickel over the cost of supplies).
> 
> Anyways, like we had a discussion a while back on, for the average pet owner, spaying and neutering makes good sense. Perhaps not right away for the performance or working dog, but I think that's why it's important to have a questionaire about a new patient/client. That way, I'll know who I'm dealing with and what their goals are for their dog. Dogs that are already owned by someone should be treated as individuals, though dogs from shelters are treated more like a herd (shelter medicine is closer in many respects to herd health medicine for food animals than small animal) and in that respect, I feel it's best to castrate that animal when it leaves, whether 8 weeks, 8 months, or 8 years. It's more a utilitarian approach, if that makes sense.
> 
> If it's an owned coach potato or weekend warrior pet, I also don't have any major issues with spaying or neutering all but the very large and giant breed dogs at 6 months either. Your average poorly bred American Rottweiler is still way more likely to end up in the pound or euthanized because of behavior/temperament problems (perhaps they shouldn't have been bred for in the first place?) or because of overpopulation than ever get osteosarcoma or hemangiosarcoma, where there is a possible link to very early spay/neuter. Don't get me wrong, I don't insist on spaying or neutering, but for average pet owners (which you guys are not necessarily), it's really the best way to go.



I should "get spayed" to reduce my risk of ovarian cancer. And while they're at it, a complete masectomy will lower my risk of breast cancer. 

:lol:

Maren, when you're a vet, don't get upset if I tell you that "spaying is for people that can't keep their dog on a leash." ROFL :lol: One of my vets got pissed when I said that to her. Of course, the only reason I should alter (according to her) is to lower the cancer risk.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> I agree with Jeffs definintion of "responsible dog ownership", and I do not believe the definition requires neutering, although I would definetly stop short of calling this campagn a veterinarian conspiracy to make money. I do NOT like the attitude I have seen in a couple of veterinary practices of vets practically running roughshod over clients from the minute they bring in an 8 week old pup "OK, LET'S MAKE THE APPOINTMENT TO NEUTER YOUR DOG NOW". No asking the owner what the plans are for the dog, no asking if the owner is considering neutering" just assuming it's a "done deal" and 'LET'S DO IT AT 6 MONTHS" which is also REALLY wrong.[-X


I was told to neuter at 6 months "because that's when hip xrays are done and it saves money on anethesia." O.M.G.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I should "get spayed" to reduce my risk of ovarian cancer. And while they're at it, a complete masectomy will lower my risk of breast cancer.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> Maren, when you're a vet, don't get upset if I tell you that "spaying is for people that can't keep their dog on a leash." ROFL :lol: One of my vets got pissed when I said that to her. Of course, the only reason I should alter (according to her) is to lower the cancer risk.


Sadly, I actually agree with that! God knows how many people are completely baffled that every intact male dog in a 3 mile radius comes a callin' when they let Pookie outside in the yard in heat. :roll: Although I think one of my professors put it best...as you get older, your gonads are not your friends!  Ask any woman in her 60s with mammary cancer or man in his 70s with benign prostatic hyperplasia (which isn't so benign when you can't pee and end up like a blocked cat!). Your reproductive organs don't care if they help kill you when you're 50+. They just want to pass on your genes by 35 for us gals (interestingly the life expectancy for a long time before about 100 years ago). 

And my mom was so thankful when she "got spayed" (got an ovariohysterectomy) when she was in her early 40s. I can definitely see some perks! Of course, I wish there were more of a mandatory spay/neuter for certain people...YOU! Out of the gene pool! :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was just thinkin how Maren should get spayed.

Oh those rampant cancer rates !! Live in fear !! Live in fear !!


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Cancer is still the #1 cause of death in pets and how many of them are neutered? Over 35 years we have lost more dogs to old age and other forms of cancer than that related to the dogs being intact.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I was just thinkin how Maren should get spayed.
> 
> Oh those rampant cancer rates !! Live in fear !! Live in fear !!


It's not the cancer that'd be the helpful thing. Having to take about 1000-1200 mg of naproxen one or two days a month just to be functional SUCKS. Maybe some of you ladies know what I mean...


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> It's not the cancer that'd be the helpful thing. Having to take about 1000-1200 mg of naproxen one or two days a month just to be functional SUCKS. Maybe some of you ladies know what I mean...


Most of us men know too


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Apparently Jeff didn't get it...probably not enough time around the ladies other than the ones at the bar?


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> It's not the cancer that'd be the helpful thing. Having to take about 1000-1200 mg of naproxen one or two days a month just to be functional SUCKS. Maybe some of you ladies know what I mean...


I found a cure for that but the cure only lasts about 9 months and has some minor side effects. My wife would only go for the cure 4 times tho :mrgreen:.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sorry David, like any good working female, I've gotta get all those important titles after my name before I can be bred!  Still got two more to go...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Apparently Jeff didn't get it...probably not enough time around the ladies other than the ones at the bar?

I really don't listen to chicks speak. Never have, as it is usually nothing I want to hear. I have been working on this. At the bar, you pay just enough attention to hear if she is saying yes, then you go back to ignoring what she is saying.

I try to listen anymore. You still rarely have anything interesting to say. LOL


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I was told to neuter at 6 months "because that's when hip xrays are done and it saves money on anethesia." O.M.G.


 
wow - by who? 


i too am sick of the S/N rhetoric. S/N your pet is almost looked at as the hallmark of responsibility in the US nowadays... ](*,)


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