# Pulling and pushing...moved.



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hoping it will not get buried in the other post about frantic biting...it is a separate topic.



Steve Burger said:


> I was watching training today with part of my mind on this thread. I had thought the rationalizations for teaching a dog to push on the bite were ridiculous but did not want to pursue it too far, especially in consideration of the possibility that I was "not sensitive to different venues". The one rationalization that I felt was particularly absurd was the dog was going to let go of the bite, and since it was moving backward would not be able to effectively re-bite. Kind of like envisioning a couple of kids playing tug of war and one side letting go and the other falling 10' back into a mud puddle or something.
> 
> Peter was working Lance's dog Haak on the body suit as he has moved a little too much into prey for Lance's liking. The suit was custom made by Michael Schweikert according to LC's specifications. It is extremely heavy and is very thick. It was made to be able to take a bite to the middle of the body. A dog has to really bite hard to be able to hold on, as it is not soft and spongy like some suits I have seen. A tremendous amount of pressure was being put on the dog, in every aspect, from pre-bite pressure to driving the dog. Since the material is difficult to get a great grip (unlike an arm or leg), the dog came off a few times in the midst of pulling. It was able to re-bite instantly in every circumstance. As a matter of fact the re-bites in almost every case were spectacular strikes. In other words I feel the argument is no less absurd in the light of day. The other one about it being a moving target..well I still don't get the point. In many instances a big trial sleeve is a moving target as well, pre and post bite. I don't see many well trained dogs coming off bites in any of these scenarios..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Steve Burger said:
> 
> 
> > A tremendous amount of pressure was being put on the dog, in every aspect, from pre-bite pressure to driving the dog. Since the material is difficult to get a great grip (unlike an arm or leg), the dog came off a few times in the midst of pulling. It was able to re-bite instantly in every circumstance. As a matter of fact the re-bites in almost every case were spectacular strikes. In other words I feel the argument is no less absurd in the light of day. The other one about it being a moving target..well I still don't get the point. In many instances a big trial sleeve is a moving target as well, pre and post bite. I don't see many well trained dogs coming off bites in any of these
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: Pulling and pushing...moved. Steve, Dave C. etc.*

reposted. added a couple missing words...



> Originally Posted by Steve Burger
> I was watching training today with part of my mind on this thread. I had thought the rationalizations for teaching a dog to push on the bite were ridiculous but did not want to pursue it too far, especially in consideration of the possibility that I was "not sensitive to different venues". The one rationalization that I felt was particularly absurd was the dog was going to let go of the bite, and since it was moving backward would not be able to effectively re-bite. Kind of like envisioning a couple of kids playing tug of war and one side letting go and the other falling 10' back into a mud puddle or something. .


Steve, hopefully you'll respond here, not trying to go all uncle LOU on you with the dissecting of the posts, but I find I disagree with your assumptions and possibly assesments, that you so forcefully put forth in this post.

You forgot a few other RIDICULOUS rationalizations for preferring a dog push with the grip. and again wheh I say push, I do not mean necessarily trying to physically push a person around, but pushing his grip, his bodily fighting behaviors could be varied. Any of the following reasons I suppose would not make much difference if the dog is going to only be worked in IPO on a trial sleeve with a bite bar. But with a belgian syle sleeve or a suit, or even for real I think there may be some validity for these reasons.

The training decoy can actually feel the dogs grip around his body part to gauge it, work it, react to it, improve it. A dog that pulls will inevitably pull the material away from the body, making it impossible to actually feel what is going on with the grip, because the dog is not biting the decoy in the suit, he is biting only the suit. 

here is a video of a dog with a pushing grip on a suit. nothing special no hugely aggressive countering going on, but decent video to watch grip with my dog in training with a SCH helper who has never worked a dog in a suit promoting that type of grip, he has worked in suit before, but not to promote a pushing grip specifically. He too had his doubts, initially when I started working with him. But now encourages it in every non-IPO dog that he works with, because he sees more power, can feel the grip, and feels it promotes much more domination over the decoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8

here is his kid doing a couple leg bites, another guy new to this type of grip promotion, actually the first time on the legs purposely with her. again nothing big, but can see the gripping behavior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX8iG2MQfTs&feature=youtu.be

Here is a dog that pulls on a suit. arms and legs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QD5WiGFGgc

It should be very clear, which decoys can feel the grip and adjust accordingly to promote a better grip.

It also should be fairly clear as to which dog wants to engage the decoy with its mouth, work it on the man, and attempt to dominate the decoy in a more personal fashion.

Some people (not saying you) look at fight drive as a dog trying to fight the decoy FOR the suit, trying to pull it away from the man, others view it as fighting the decoy IN the suit, as seen below...a better, more experienced dog on the arm, with pushing grip better countering. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XswhqKJ5ls

and a puller
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4TC1SXC6hs&playnext=1&list=PLFE85A30D1F33EE91&feature=results_main

again should be pretty clear as to which dog is trying to dominate and fight the decoy. 

The pulling dogs will surely leave some pinching bruises on your arms, and legs, as his grip slips off of your body, and his front teeth nip into you while he closes his mouth and is trying to pull the suit from you, but they do not cause muscle trauma and bone bruising like a pushing dog crushing down on you with his molars can, went a dog is trying to bite you in the suit.
Which dogs do you think get a better grip workout for their jaw muscles in the suit? 



> Peter was working Lance's dog Haak on the body suit as he has moved a little too much into prey for Lance's liking. The suit was custom made by Michael Schweikert according to LC's specifications. It is extremely heavy and is very thick. It was made to be able to take a bite to the middle of the body.


Most suits are made to be able to take a bite to the body, that is why they are suits 



> A dog has to really bite hard to be able to hold on, as it is not soft and spongy like some suits I have seen.


ok. suits *do* come in various thicknesses and hardness. 



> A tremendous amount of pressure was being put on the dog, in every aspect, from pre-bite pressure to driving the dog. Since the material is difficult to get a great grip (unlike an arm or leg), the dog came off a few times in the midst of pulling. It was able to re-bite instantly in every circumstance. As a matter of fact the re-bites in almost every case were spectacular strikes.


Yes it is more difficult for many dogs to keep a grip on a stomach or chest bite, that is shape of the surface moreso than the material. sometimes dogs will look to re-target for something they can really sink their teeth into, regardless of the suit type, did his dog go straight back to the stomach? really just curious..how far away from his body were the spectacular strikes?

I looked around online and could not really find videos of good stomach bites on the suit to try to compare. maybe someone can.

it is too bad this was not video'd I would like to see it and draw my own conclusions, as I am not sure of your experience in suit biting dogs. I assume it is not on video?

I also wonder what you might call EXTREME pressure...while I realize these videos are allowing for easier entries, would you say the driving was comparable in pressure to these videos of good moderate pressure? it is not super EXTREME, but certainly is pressure..again...video? would really like to see what EXTREME pressure looks like to someone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC4iYosiH5s&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3f7rD1GRk&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

That dog has a pushing grip...I might actually pay a little money (like $5.00 lol) to see a video of a dog the pulls on a suit as his normal biting style, undergo something similar and stay on the bite...I have never met one that would I dont think...there might be 1000'a of them for all I know, but I would love to see even just 1.



> In other words I feel the argument is no less absurd in the light of day. The other one about it being a moving target..well I still don't get the point. In many instances a big trial sleeve is a moving target as well, pre and post bite.


In the light of day? anything to show? like a video? so everyone can judge whether the argument is absurd? if not, I would say it is only out in the open in your mind, not out in the light of day for all to see and process.

Not understanding the one about the moving target here? are you trying to compare gripping styles or the type of equipment? like a sleeve to a suit? 



> I don't see many well trained dogs coming off bites in any of these scenarios.


I thought you were talking about a well trained dog that DID come off the the bites in the scenario?

there are other reasons people like the push, besides working the grip in the suit, teaching the dogs to find and dominate and control the decoy.

Most dogs that are worked in a suit KNOW it is a suit, they also KNOW there is a guy inside the suit, that they can make contact with, and punish, so I am not really sure why anyone doing regular suit work, would actually want the dog to pull, cant think of one reason in reality, some dogs sure do pull, some people dont care, but I cant think of a reason that someone would want the dog to pull, unless thier dog is an IPO dog, can you?

A pulling grip will lose major points in NVBK, it will also lose major points in PSA, the KNPV doesnt really judge grips, but the pushing type is preferred, as pulling dogs are mostly viewed as weaker dogs, rightly or wrongly, MondioRing does not really judge the grips persay either, but watch the training videos, pushing grip is encouraged in that sport as well, hell even the FR guys mostly prefer a pushing grip, at least the ones I talk to.

So in reality, every other major biting sport aside from IPO (and maybe swedish protection) the vast majority of trainers, owners and breeders, want and prefer dogs with pushing grips, even most of the police and military guys if given a choice will prefer the pushing crushing grip in a suit, instead of a dog that pulls on it, I would bet, at least the ones I talk to. 

I guess my last question is, since you seem to have an open mind on this subject,  why do you think that is, why would almost every other sport and work seem to overwhelmingly prefer something* that you* personally find absurd??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ivan Balabanov, with Quenny Ot Vitosha, a former FCI FMBB World Champion IPO handler and his dog...

What the hell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCV0vipvUNM


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Ivan Balabanov, with Quenny Ot Vitosha, a former FCI FMBB World Champion IPO handler and his dog...
> 
> What the hell?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCV0vipvUNM


 
No seriousness in the work and if this floats your boat, and the dog has to be taught this way then that's what needs to be done.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

*Re: Pulling and pushing...moved. Steve, Dave C. etc.*



Joby Becker said:


> reposted. added a couple missing words...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Pulling or Pushing has no bearing on the drive a dog is working in. I once thought so; but i was wrong.

You must look at the overall picture based on the training, because a dog, in any split second during engagement is sliding in and out of prey and defense drive. The way a dog shifts in drives is very fluid and as a Helper I try to tap into conflict/stress while keeping the dog in Prey. 

It’s a fine balance.

The natural fighting technique for dogs is situational to that dog. 

It may be to PULL or it may be to PUSH (including thrashing), however in IPO the most effective way to stop a man without causing stress to a dog's teeth, neck and spine on the hard arm; is to PULL.

It also shows the physical ability of the dog to stop a Helper. 

If a dog PUSHES into the bite during a proper IPO drive; physics and mechanics of a dogs body and teeth causes stress on the dog (physical force placed on the dogs neck/spine and teeth), and the only way to reduce this stress is to PULL or readjust it's bite or thrash which most times means the bite quality is suffering because the dogs mouth is actually opening and shifting while on the bite. 

If you have NOT taught your dog to PULL, your dogs bite quality will suffer considerably during trial with a good trial Helper who is taught to drive into the dog directly.

The PULLING activity is encouraged by good training Helpers both during a drive and escape bites.

The hardness of the bite is the strongest when a dog is pulling. physics again; if you are pulling with your hands you are clamping closed your hand the strongest and if you release slightly the tension you may loose what you are pulling, while if you are pushing you can actually release the tension on your hands and use your body more to PUSH.

Everything we do ...don't care what format or program you train, is taught or promoted situationally in one form or another including the PULLING or PUSHING while on the bite. 

Prey bites in IPO are bites that are initiated through movement of equipment i.e. the sleeve is moved to a bite position to reward the dog for performing a certain way. 

In trial this can be detrimental because world class Helpers are taught NOT to present the arm, World Class Helpers are taught to freeze in a manner with the sleeve already positioned across the body before the “out” is given, and the trial Helper is to threat (attack) with the raising of the stick, and no movement of the sleeve unless it’s to protect themselves because of the way they are situated during the “out”. 

The dog is then expected to engage directly into the HELPER center mass. 

This is to show the judge the intent and commitment of the dog to engage the Helper without chasing a piece of equipment, and then to PULL (fight) for ownership, of the situation.

I have trained in Fr Ring ...I started out in a Fr Ring suit and was the training Decoy to the only dog so far that has attained a Belg Ring Certificate in Canada (to my knowledge).

Show me a Ring trial where a dog is driven while on the bite? Most Decoys will swing the dog’s never driving into them directly in the same form a good IPO Helper does. Two totally different techniques.

The training in the Ring program is different, with very little conflict between decoy and dog during the bite work. In fact during bitework the Decoy often times becomes surrogate Handlers during protection work. This happens more in Ring then in IPO, although it does happen as well in IPO.

Ring dogs are promoted to PUSH into the bite and for every pushing activity by the dog, the Decoy steps back and gives way; indeed even encouraging the dog to re-bite for a fuller bite even when the bite is already full....this promoting of PUSHING in and continually readjusting for a fuller bite (even when the bite is full) we do not do in IPO.

We want the dogs in IPO to feel conflict with the Helper, to bite hard, and PULL once engaged and to not shift or readjust it's bite. 

I’ve found that once a dog can handle stress and deal with the conflict/stress that the Helper gives; and the dog wins, the dogs are more explosive and serious in their work because of the conflict they have overcome with the Helper, and then it's just training again to continue to promote overcoming conflict, a full mouth bite and the pulling combined. 

Not all dogs can handle this training. Not all dogs were meant to handle this training, and if you own a dog that can’t handle this training you must adjust your training accordingly, for such a dog.

As an IPO Helper I do not promote a dog to PUSH in.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

*Re: Pulling and pushing...moved. Steve, Dave C. etc.*

D*mn Joby!!! Love the pushing vids. I especially like the loganhaus ones. Watched them a while back. I like those types. I prefer the one of my dog's daddy though! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDGpN_W7sw


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

*Re: Pulling and pushing...moved. Steve, Dave C. etc.*

@ Mr. Villanueva. I didn't see in any of the posts where anyone was questioning what drives the dogs are in during bite work or any of the phases of pressure. I don't think that is what the discussion was about. I could be wrong though. Please bring our attn to that particular post about the drives in the dogs during bitework. Maybe someone mentioned it? Idk.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

*Re: Pulling and pushing...moved. Steve, Dave C. etc.*



Zakia Days said:


> @ Mr. Villanueva. I didn't see in any of the posts where anyone was questioning what drives the dogs are in during bite work or any of the phases of pressure. I don't think that is what the discussion was about. I could be wrong though. Please bring our attn to that particular post about the drives in the dogs during bitework. Maybe someone mentioned it? Idk.


I answered a post on "fantic bite" post and thought my answer would also apply to push vs pulling thread.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

*Re: Pulling and pushing...moved. Steve, Dave C. etc.*



Zakia Days said:


> D*mn Joby!!! Love the pushing vids. I especially like the loganhaus ones. Watched them a while back. I like those types. I prefer the one of my dog's daddy though! LOL
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDGpN_W7sw


In this video there is no pressure from the "helper" like the one in loganhaus video. The dog's genetics tell him to grip full, and bite hard and crush the suit to try and punish the helper. When he pushes in the helper "gives in" a little with his leg to make the dog feel more powerful with his gripping. I believe this dog has injuries and so you will see, purposefully, very little resistance from this helper with this dog. Martine can confirm this. In general, with pressure from the helper, the dog's nerve and/or training will decide (assuming here, of course) whether or not he will fight harder, push in harder, grip harder or whatever. That's what I was taught anyway. Like your dog JOby, she has learned or taught you to play the countering game. I've seen some dogs pull a little to find leverage for making the helper lose balance so, when they re-grip pushing in hard to the helpe,r they can possibly overpower him. Sometimes they counter the helper's movements, making movemnet difficult to "display" dominance or power (maintaining eye contact, so they can shoot daggers at the helper the entire time. LOL). So many different dogs w/ so many different motives for biting, fighting or playing. Enjoyable to see and learn.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Personally I think this is an equipment issue and makes it completely artificial. Furthermore, there seems to be an obsession wih hardness for the sake of hardness when in reality human/animal flesh isn't that hard. I can't think of any herder where pulling is a reflection of fight. The shake in disect. In fight, the dog knows where to go to affect the kill and its instantaneous. Think where the dogs came from. Genetically you never want a stock dog pulling. They grip full and deep and push until the animal submits. They do not pull, slash or tear--nervy unsure dogs. Oher dogs in the kill disect mode may pull but that is not a typical mature herder. The shake is not a pull. Pullers may "look" like they are fighting but is it the man or to possess something because they want to possess or relieve the pressure. I'm working with a litter now and they try to push in, fill heir moths and crush the quarry--with one looking as if it may swallow it whole. If you want it to pull--fine but there is an article posted that says this is a function of something natural and genetic in the dog. Not so in all breeds of dogs--particularly the herders and I go back to what GSDs were bred for in their stock function regegarding the grip and what it was supposed to accomplish. But carry on.

T


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I didn't see all the videos hopefully not repeated, with push & pull impeding the helper. This is a favorite of mine & the crowds obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV7kqh2imAs&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Steve Estrada said:


> I didn't see all the videos hopefully not repeated, with push & pull impeding the helper. This is a favorite of mine & the crowds obviously.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV7kqh2imAs&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Thanks Steve!!! Very obvious how he is using his body to plant/resist while maintaining that death grip.

T


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Steve Estrada said:


> I didn't see all the videos hopefully not repeated, with push & pull impeding the helper. This is a favorite of mine & the crowds obviously.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV7kqh2imAs&feature=youtube_gdata_player


 
YES this is a how a dog did it with me. Also did it the same way during the escape bite.

If this dog would of been taught similarly during the escape bite, then this would of been a picture perfect event .


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> YES this is a how a dog did it with me. Also did it the same way during the escape bite.
> 
> If this dog would of been taught similarly during the escape bite, then this would of been a picture perfect event .


You think its teaching vs. split second dynamics where at the right time and certain mechanical circumstances he is able to pull it off?

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

This is something that I wasn' envisioning as pulling. I know of a dog that helpers say does this genetically. It was never taught.

T


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

I got ask my friend, he goes the the WUSV CH and takes notes on each dog.Thought the dog lost points due to wide blind search (blind 3) and the outs after the courage test and reattack.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You think its teaching vs. split second dynamics where at the right time and certain mechanical circumstances he is able to pull it off?
> 
> T


I believe it's both training and character of the dog to win.

The dog that did it to me; displays this same technique on different Helpers (i was not the only Helper that was stopped by this dog) and I had discussions with the handler and her Helper afterwards .


Cheers,
Chello...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> I believe it's both training and character of the dog to win.
> 
> The dog that did it to me; displays this same technique on different Helpers (i was not the only Helper that was stopped by this dog) and I had discussions with the handler and her Helper afterwards .
> 
> ...


Can you tell me what's going on mechanically from the helper's point of view? I gotta go back and look at it but it looks like a helper may have certain poisistion points of the sleeve where the right dog with the right grip can be that counter force that hinders. Anyone know the dog, pedigree of Steve's dogs and the one you are referring to Marcelo?

T


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Mario Fernandez said:


> I got ask my friend, he goes the the WUSV CH and takes notes on each dog.Thought the dog lost points due to wide blind search (blind 3) and the outs after the courage test and reattack.


I think that is a correct observation. I noticed the going wide & not looking every time. As for the outs I think or it appears maybe got hung up? Or might have lost more points? But great minds think alike #-o


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

There was another vidoe posted a while back of a GSD in trial doing the same thing to a helper a bit on the small side and a GSD a lot on the big side. He stopped the helper and put him in a standstill. To the point the helper looked up at the judge and indicated that he could not "drive" the dog. Anyone have that video or know the name of it or the dog in question? Also, if the offspring and siblings all have the same or similar "style" in their work I think its safe to say its genetic. Very nice video of this dog!


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

This is the dog that stopped Marcelo on the escape..

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=393297

Very nice dog.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

Filliph vom haus Pixner - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8NWIWGvBuA


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

louise jollyman said:


> filliph vom haus pixner - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8nwiwgvbua


 
awesome awesome awesome!


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

I feel this is really sport specific. I can only comment on IPO and KNPV as that is what I've been exposed to. I do IPO with all my dogs and work them in a suit doing KNPV style training. 

An IPO sleeve feels entirely different to a dog than a bite suit does. With an IPO sleeve, the dog can't feel any part of the human and the drive goal is stop the helper and win the arm. Also, in IPO the dog doesn't really have time to drive forwards in the grip as all five bites are with the helper driving the dog or trying to flee - meaning that the decoy is always moving. Therefore, downward pulling to stop the helper in his tracks is promoted. The IPO dog can't drive forwards on the bite when he is being driven. Once the helper surrenders and stops moving, the handler almost immediately orders his dog to release and guard in a trial. There isn't really any time for the dog to drive forwards on the grip unless he gets a short one because of the strike. 

With a suit or suit material, the dog that is driving forwards is trying to feel the man. In an IPO sleeve, this is not possible. And, driving forwards is mostly promoted when there is static biting and there isn't a sleeve to win. Also, in KNPV there is a lot of static biting. Not so in IPO. So, their trainers promote the dog to drive forwards to get a full grip to overpower their decoy when he is passive. The dog feels comfort driving forwards because the suit gives much more bite satisfaction than an IPO sleeve does. The sleeve and suit are designed totally different and therefore feel much different to a dog.

I can tell you my dogs know the difference between a suit and a sleeve and also work entirely differently depending on what the decoy is wearing and also promoting. Pulling downward to overpower the helper and win the sleeve and drive forwards in the grip to overpower the decoy with the suit on. 

Just my two cents. - Greg


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JORlVWNfDTQ


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