# Lyme disease vaccination: Yay or Nay



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

After spending a couple of hours on the net reading all I could find on the subject I'm still not sure if doggy vaccination is a good idea or not even for those who live in the worse infected areas. The people on this forum who do live in those high risk areas certainly have first hand knowledge and your opinion on this matter would be appreciated. As I live North of the USA/Canada border, at the moment, a Preventic collar should do but since eventually we may be going to trials in the USA I would like to have the knowledge to make a informed decision on doggy vaccination when the time comes.

Thanks,


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

If you are just coming for trials I wouldn't be too concerned with it. Not knowing your specific type of trials I would think your exposure is relatively light and the collars should probably be sufficent. Especially since when you're not actively working I imagine your dog(s) are crated or in a vehicle. Not doing a lot free ranging.

I'm outside of Philadephia in Chester County and Lyme is rampant here in SE PA. Both my sons had Lyme's and one had his face paralyzed by it and required IV treatment. The other son had it twice. Almost every child in my neighborhood has had Lymes. Caught early it's not an issue. The girl two doors up even had the only case of Rocky Mountain Spotty Fever in PA last year. 

Since I do wilderness SAR with my dog we did the vaccinations. No issues from it at this point. But I understand it may only be about 60% effective. We also use Advantage. But that doesn't stop a bite, just attachments.

I would also ask the hosts of the trials if they can give you any incident information on Lymes in their county. Most county health departments track Lyme infections and can give you historical values fortheir area IF it is a concern to their county. You may find many areas where it is no concern.

I would say Nay for the vaccination unless you have a local issue.

Craig


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Craig, thanks for your time and advice.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

These sites might help you depending on where you're going in the US.

http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/incidencebystate.html

I'm very close to the border with DE. One of the highest states.

California map by county: http://www.ajtmh.org/content/75/4/669/F3.expansion.html

Pennsylvania fact sheet: http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=18&objID=1066378&mode=2

On page 5 of the above document is a link to a great statistics page the shows the incidence of Lymes throughout the state. (i'm the bright red county in the SE corner!) Most states where Lymes is a problem will have simialr maps and charts.

While Lymes can be a problem anywhere, PA, NY, MA, MD, CT, DE, NJ, MN, MI seem to have the highest issues.

Craig


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Craig Snyder said:


> If you are just coming for trials I wouldn't be too concerned with it. Not knowing your specific type of trials I would think your exposure is relatively light and the collars should probably be sufficent. Especially since when you're not actively working I imagine your dog(s) are crated or in a vehicle. Not doing a lot free ranging.


Not sure if the dogs who competed at the 2011 WUSV who apparently had babesia felt the same. But then again, I have not heard definitively what caused it.



> Since I do wilderness SAR with my dog we did the vaccinations. No issues from it at this point. But I understand it may only be about 60% effective. We also use Advantage. But that doesn't stop a bite, just attachments.


Do you mean K9 Advantix? Advantage does not work on ticks, just fleas.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Not sure if the dogs who competed at the 2011 WUSV who apparently had babesia felt the same. But then again, I have not heard definitively what caused it.
> .


No idea about that event. He asked about Lyme's. I can only comment on what I've seen in my area and how various K9 events are handled here. I'd still say the exposure potential to deer ticks is low at a controlled event. Not to say it can't happen. I never said his dogs couldn't get it.

Looks ike the WUSV event was held in a stadium which I would suspect any tick exposure would normally be low. But I don't know what surrounded the area and if cattle or deer were close by. The web site for it had a tick warning posted on it. Maybe that is boiler plate stuff for all events. Maybe they knew they had a problem in the area before hand.

He could also choose to apply a topical spray insecticide on the dog when attending the event, especially before going into any grassy areas or fields to compete. I haven't used any of these so I can't comment if they are good or bad. I do know that during tick season here, some of our SAR K9 handlers do use them on their dogs immediately before heading out on training or a search. These seem to be mostly the longer haried dogs, i.e. GSD's and Shiloh's. In their fur you'd have almost no chance of spotting a freshly attached deer tick. A dog tick yes, but not a deer tick. 

With my very short-haired dog I've only found one deer tick on her and that was on an ear. I'm assuming I've missed a whole bunch more over the years. I have deer going through my yard and neighborhood on a nightly and daily basis. And that doesn't count her exposure during SAR training 2-3 times a week at different, usually deer infested areas, and daily trips to the local preserve for exercise.



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Do you mean K9 Advantix? Advantage does not work on ticks, just fleas.


Yes.. Advantix.


By the way.. you didn't weighi in with a vote. Would you do the vaccination? Do you think I shouldn't have? My wife was against it but our vet recommended it given our exposure.

Craig


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Gerald Guay said:


> Craig, thanks for your time and advice.


 
BTW: I 'm sure you found this in your research, but the vaccine for us was a series of three shots I believe. (At least it was when I had it done). You can't just run out and do it before leaving. 

But I'm still a Nay.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Sounds like some nasty shit especially for kids.Over here the health dept said we didnt have it in our country and for years they denied it and more people got symptoms but they still denied it and only now are they starting to buckle to pressure


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

brad robert said:


> Sounds like some nasty shit especially for kids.Over here the health dept said we didnt have it in our country and for years they denied it and more people got symptoms but they still denied it and only now are they starting to buckle to pressure


When not caught early it can be very difficult. When my son got Bell's Palsy of the face he was a senior in high school. It was a tough time for him as he looked like a stroke victim. Couldn't close his mouth completely, drooled, trouble talking, etc. His senior picture showed the effects. To this day he still has some residual nerve damage to the right side of his face but is now barely noticeable.

I really, really, hate the stuff and the ticks that carry it.

Craig


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Ah bells palsy i have seen that before.Poor kid.


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## Kiersten Lippman (Apr 1, 2012)

I think prevention is much better than cure- but I wouldn't vaccinate, personally.

I would double up with a preventic collar and advantix. Advantix actually claims to repel ticks- and in my experience living in very high tick areas- it worked. Another option, which perhaps few vets would be on board with, is to treat with low-dosage doxycyclin if your dog is likely to be exposed. When I was dealing with tick disease in my dogs I read about military working dog recommendations to treat with low-dose doxy if dogs were going into tick territory. I've never heard of a vet doing this, but it's something I'd consider with my dogs if I were passing throug tick central (southern Illinois, and PA in my experience). MA is bad, too, especially if you run your dogs in low-lying wetlands. 

I have pretty furry dogs. There is not way I'd trust myself to find and remove every tick as a preventitive. I'll go with the chemicals every tiime, but not the vaccine. Everything I read indicated it wasn't a good option in it's present form.

PLUS- the vaccine does nothing for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever or erhlichia- both very serious and potentially deadly. In my experience, Lyme is the least of your worries when it comes to tick borne illness. The others hit hard and fast and aren't as well known by vets.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I had my dog vaccinated once (worked at a vet's office, "why not?") and then heard that it makes it harder to get a clear test back if you later test for lymes. Any truth to that? Since then I vote no for vaccine.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Kiersten Lippman said:


> I think prevention is much better than cure- but I wouldn't vaccinate, personally.
> 
> I would double up with a preventic collar and advantix. Advantix actually claims to repel ticks- and in my experience living in very high tick areas- it worked. Another option, which perhaps few vets would be on board with, is to treat with low-dosage doxycyclin if your dog is likely to be exposed. When I was dealing with tick disease in my dogs I read about military working dog recommendations to treat with low-dose doxy if dogs were going into tick territory. I've never heard of a vet doing this, but it's something I'd consider with my dogs if I were passing throug tick central (southern Illinois, and PA in my experience). MA is bad, too, especially if you run your dogs in low-lying wetlands.
> 
> ...



Agree 100%!!


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Jackie Lockard said:


> I had my dog vaccinated once (worked at a vet's office, "why not?") and then heard that it makes it harder to get a clear test back if you later test for lymes. Any truth to that? Since then I vote no for vaccine.


My understanding is that the blood titers for Lymes are higher after vaccination. So you should probably have a blood test after vaccination to serve as a baseline.

Everything I've read also indicates that risk of infection, (including Rocky Mountain), is directly correlated to length of attachment of the infected tick. So I think Advantix is great in this regard. Even though the ticks might bite, they probably release and drop off very quickly. At least I haven't seen any ticks on my dogs that looked like they where on for any amount of time.

If trialing in a high risk area I would suggest applying Advantix the two months prior to the event and the month of the event. These come in a three application pack so it makes it easy.

Craig


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I never used Advantage but use Frontline regularly. I think the thought with Frontline is the ticks are not in the dog long enough to pass the disease and infect the dog. I will say that I have never had to pull an inflated tick off my dog when using frontline. I think Advantage does the same?
 Its not uncommon to go in the woods around here and come out covered in ticks if you don’t have spray on. At times you can just looks at the sand covering the ground and see them. There have been many times I had to change before getting in my truck because I could not get the ticks of my cloths, or drove my home in my underwear. Ya that’s a little weird. 
After a being in the woods there were times my dogs slept in the garage and in the morning where they were laying would be a pile of dead ticks, easily 100 or more when using frontline. So it does do something. 
And don’t forget the chiggers, they are a whole nother story, nothing worse than having a chigger bite every few sq inches on your body. You go nuts for 2 weeks.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Craig Snyder said:


> My understanding is that the blood titers for Lymes are higher after vaccination. So you should probably have a blood test after vaccination to serve as a baseline.
> 
> Craig



Makes sense.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jackie Lockard said:


> I had my dog vaccinated once (worked at a vet's office, "why not?") and then heard that it makes it harder to get a clear test back if you later test for lymes. Any truth to that? Since then I vote no for vaccine.


Not much, the tests are always being developed and improved upon. I believe it used to be true but now is not neccessarily. The test are not all the same. I'd talk about this one with the vet clinic(s) that you go to and find out if the particular test they use is affected by vaccination. The test my fiance uses at his clinic is not affected by the lyme vaccine.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I previously was very anti-lyme vaccine. I had a lot of wrong information and was not well educated on vaccines in general. Like the tidbit on lyme vaccine makes future lyme tests positive. It was presented to me as "lyme disease makes your dog permanently ill with lyme disease". Neither parts of that info-bit are true.

My fiance had a job collecting ticks and testing them for lyme disease. Because of what he learned, there are some state parks we will NEVER go to because the rate of ticks carrying lyme is so high. I don't know if all states have a program like this or if the information is public, but it's probably worth the hassle of finding it.


Now I vaccinate for lyme. I also use Certifect religiously.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Not much, the tests are always being developed and improved upon. I believe it used to be true but now is not neccessarily. The test are not all the same. I'd talk about this one with the vet clinic(s) that you go to and find out if the particular test they use is affected by vaccination. The test my fiance uses at his clinic is not affected by the lyme vaccine.


The Idexx C6 test can tell the difference between vax and infection antibodies.

If it's positive, there's a second test (I think it's blood sent to Idexx) that allows for monitoring the treatment progress.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jackie Lockard said:


> I had my dog vaccinated once (worked at a vet's office, "why not?") and then heard that it makes it harder to get a clear test back if you later test for lymes. Any truth to that? Since then I vote no for vaccine.


I also vote no, but for different reasons.

Last I read, most vet schools don't recommend Lyme vax because of the seriousness of potential side effects and the short-term limited protection.

JMO, though.



eta

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Lyme.htm
Scroll to _Lyme Vaccination for Dogs_


http://drschoen.com/articles_L1_11.html
Scroll to the fourth paragraph from the bottom starting with _"As far as prevention goes, this is a sticky wicket. There is a great deal of controversy concerning the dog Lyme vaccine."
_

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/...edicine/newsletters/vaccination_protocols.cfm
_“Canine Borrelia burgdorferi (Lyme) Vaccine
The incidence of Lyme disease in California is currently considered extremely low. Furthermore, use of the vaccine even in endemic areas (such as the east coast of the US) has been controversial because of anecdotal reports of vaccine-associated adverse events. .... ”
_


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I also vote no, but for different reasons.
> 
> Last I read, most vet schools don't recommend Lyme vax because of the seriousness of potential side effects and the short-term limited protection.


I'm assuming that varies by location? These are human cases, but it gives an idea of areas with high risk. http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/resources/ReportedCasesofLymeDisease.pdf


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Yeah, and I'm under all that blue somewhere in SE PA!!

As our vet explained it, (at the time which was about two yrs ago now), the vaccine can result in higher blood titers than normal. A vet reading results of future lyme tests must take that into account and not just assume an elevated titer is a result of an active infection. It could just be the new baseline of a vaccinated dog. That the measure of Lyme once vaccinated is really the difference from the baseline.

Now maybe with newer testing, that is no longer a problem.

But prevention is everything. Chemicals (frontline, advantix, colars, sprays, whatever your choice) are a neccessity. There is no way you'll find deer ticks on dogs so you can't say "I'l just check my dog for ticks". Deer ticks are TINY! about 1/10th to 1/4 the size of a regular dog (wood) tick. Smaller than most freckles on people. People rarely find them on themselves.

Craig


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

I vaccinate yearly for lyme disease. 

I live in New England and the ticks are INSANE. 
The vaccine is about 80% effective.. and I also use flea and tick preventative as well. 

Even with all that, one of my dogs still got lyme disease. She was three legged for a few days, and then returned to her normal self. Other than that had NO symptoms. It was only when I went to enroll her in the blood donor program that I found out. She had a c6 level of over 800! We treated with doxy and her c6 levels dropped dramatically back to normal... she also had a fever of unknown origin a few months ago that we associated with a tick borne illness. 

None of my other dogs have ever gotten the disease, however... and I will continue to vaccinate.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> Even with all that, one of my dogs still got lyme disease. She was three legged for a few days, and then returned to her normal self. Other than that had NO symptoms.



Kara, I think this is the very reason some of us do not vaccinate. 


One of my dogs contracted Lyme while I still lived in the Northeast, and he also also extremely lame and feverish, so I chose to do the 28 days of doxy, and within a few days he was back to normal. *knock on wood*, he hasn't had another flare up, but the fact that so many Lyme vaccinated dogs go through the same thing, further solidified why I won't vaccinate for it. 

The same can be said for why I don't vaccinate for Bordatella. I've previously had dogs who were vaccinated get kennel cough.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Gerald Guay said:


> After spending a couple of hours on the net reading all I could find on the subject I'm still not sure if doggy vaccination is a good idea or not even for those who live in the worse infected areas. The people on this forum who do live in those high risk areas certainly have first hand knowledge and your opinion on this matter would be appreciated. As I live North of the USA/Canada border, at the moment, a Preventic collar should do but since eventually we may be going to trials in the USA I would like to have the knowledge to make a informed decision on doggy vaccination when the time comes.
> 
> Thanks,


So Gerald... Were u able to devise a plan after reading all this!! :grin:

Craig


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Britney Pelletier said:


> Kara, I think this is the very reason some of us do not vaccinate.
> 
> 
> One of my dogs contracted Lyme while I still lived in the Northeast, and he also also extremely lame and feverish, so I chose to do the 28 days of doxy, and within a few days he was back to normal. *knock on wood*, he hasn't had another flare up, but the fact that so many Lyme vaccinated dogs go through the same thing, further solidified why I won't vaccinate for it.
> ...


well, the lyme vaccine has much more coverage than the bordetella... and the influenza vaccine. 

Lyme is 80% effective, and out of ALL of the dogs I've ever owned, one contracted lyme. 
Pretty good. I'll take it. 

Guarantee I would have had more show up positive if I didn't vaccinate. some coverage is better than none.


I also think it depends where you live (if you want to vaccinate or not)... how tick infested your area is, how prominent lyme is in the area, etc.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi Craig,

First, thanks to all participants for their input. It's been informative.

I've decided that, when the time comes to trial in the USA, I'll start Advantix 30 days prior and add the Preventic collar 4 days prior to departure.
How does that sound?


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

IMHO, I think that would be fine. I'd make sure that that you time the Advantix or Frontline so that the second treatment is done about 48 hrs before you come to the states. I don't think you need to worry about using the collar until you are in the states.

And of course, once you leave the states be extra observant of any lameness or lethargy in the dog. If so get to a vet and get antibiotics started ASAP.

Craig


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Craig Snyder said:


> By the way.. you didn't weighi in with a vote. Would you do the vaccination? Do you think I shouldn't have? My wife was against it but our vet recommended it given our exposure.
> 
> Craig


So in Missouri, there is little Lyme disease. So no, I don't even carry the vaccine. But there is a TON of ehrlichia and some Rocky Mountain spotted fever and anaplasmosis (for all of which there is no vaccine), so I do watch out for those and recommend "tick titers" for weird lameness/fever combos. I had a client who didn't like using any chemicals on her dog, so she gave her dog Heartgard, but refused to use Frontline. Her dog had a sore neck and fever and was almost immediately responsive to doxycycline. Titers came back as RMSF, so from then on, she uses Frontline.


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