# the Eff Yous...



## Chris Michalek

Whats the best way to deal with puppy **** yous? I know it's just a phase and I know he prolly testing the waters but I'm getting frustrated. And these damn malinois have these beaker head that can't keep a collar around his neck. Basically, I give a command he runs away.

I've been keeping him on a long for the past couple of days when I toss the kong for him. He's doing this thing where he grabs the kong/ball and keeps on running, then he hides in the bushes. 

If we do OB with a tug or food he's fine. I know he knows his basic commands like come sit platz etc... but he's not doing anything for me unless there is a reward. He used to do all of this sans reward and I never rewarded him with food that often after he got it. 

I've been here before with my other pups but I don't recall being this frustrated.


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## Carol Boche

Chris Michalek said:


> And these damn malinois have these beaker head that can't keep a collar around his neck. Basically, I give a command he runs away.
> 
> 
> I've been here before with my other pups but I don't recall being this frustrated.


<SNORT> the beaker heads comment made me laugh out loud :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Not sure what to tell you other than, welcome to the world of Mals....they do some crazy s**t sometimes LOL (meant as a joke)


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## Chris Michalek

Carol Boche said:


> <SNORT> the beaker heads comment made me laugh out loud :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
> 
> Not sure what to tell you other than, welcome to the world of Mals....they do some crazy s**t sometimes LOL (meant as a joke)



my wife calls him Beaker and it's sad that he answers to it... "You said if we get another dog I could name it. He's named Beaker." What dumb name dammit! :evil:


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## Carol Boche

Have you tried a fur saver..... or some kind of slip collar that will not allow him to pull out of the collar?

Yeah....no Beaker......wasn't that a muppets name?


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris Michalek said:


> .. but he's not doing anything for me unless there is a reward.


How does he know?



("Bribe" is very different from "reward." If he's aware of when you do and do not have tangible rewards on you, then I'd wonder whether you bribed rather than rewarded.)


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## Chris Michalek

Carol Boche said:


> Have you tried a fur saver..... or some kind of slip collar that will not allow him to pull out of the collar?
> 
> Yeah....no Beaker......wasn't that a muppets name?


Yeah he was the muppet with the really skinny head.

I have fur saver but it's too big...yeah I'll have to get something for him. This business with him started on tuesday. I keep thinking it's a fluke but after this morning it's not.

Now I understand why Jeff Oehlsen would kick a dog in the head :mrgreen:


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris Michalek said:


> Yeah he was the muppet with the really skinny head. ...


Dr. Bunsen Honeydew's assistant. That skinny head would be a ...... beaker! :lol:


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## Chris Michalek

Connie Sutherland said:


> How does he know?
> 
> 
> 
> ("Bribe" is very different from "reward." If he's aware of when you do and do not have tangible rewards on you, then I'd wonder whether you bribed rather than rewarded.)



that's a good point. He knows if I have food because I go to the fridge and cut up weiners or he knows there's a tug in my hand. But he used to sit, platz, come and watch me without a reward no matter where we are. I know he knows this stuff he just quit doing it which is what made me go to the fridge for weiners and of course he was totally fine.


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## Carol Boche

Chris Michalek said:


> Now I understand why Jeff Oehlsen would kick a dog in the head :mrgreen:


Yes, lest not judge til we have stood in his shoes....(ICK) 
Just Kidding Jeff.....:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Like Connie mentioned, I would make sure that he really knows what you want...and take a look at the reward vs. bribe thing. 

It may just very well be a Mali test for you like you are thinking. ](*,) ](*,)


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## Chris Michalek

Connie Sutherland said:


> Dr. Bunsen Honeydew's assistant. That skinny head would be a ...... beaker! :lol:


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## Chris Michalek

Carol Boche said:


> Yes, lest not judge til we have stood in his shoes....(ICK)
> Just Kidding Jeff.....:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
> 
> Like Connie mentioned, I would make sure that he really knows what you want...and take a look at the reward vs. bribe thing.
> 
> It may just very well be a Mali test for you like you are thinking. ](*,) ](*,)


I know he's testing. I've worked with him long enough without a reward to know. We use the tug to build intensity... But around the house, at the park, mall etc... he does all his OB without any reward.


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris Michalek said:


> that's a good point. He knows if I have food because I go to the fridge and cut up weiners or he knows there's a tug in my hand. But he used to sit, platz, come and watch me without a reward no matter where we are. I know he knows this stuff he just quit doing it which is what made me go to the fridge for weiners and of course he was totally fine.


:lol:

I would probably start over, based on the realization that I am at fault more than the dog.

Starting over in order to properly phase out tangible rewards (down to "random") takes about 1/10th or less of the time that this initial bribery work took.

Ask me how I know this. :lol: :lol:


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## Chris Michalek

Connie Sutherland said:


> :lol:
> 
> I would probably start over, based on the realization that I am at fault more than the dog.
> 
> Starting over in order to properly phase out tangible rewards (down to "random") takes about 1/10th or less of the time that this initial bribery work took.
> 
> Ask me how I know this. :lol: :lol:



I don't doubt you but I only bribed him today to see if he would do anything. Up until today I'd been doing OB sessions with just a tug. It was like a flip was switched on him sometime tuesday because that's when he stopped performing for me.

So you think it's a phase or a training issue? I can accept either one.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sounds like a normal puppy. At this point the **** you is coming from your training, not necessarily the dog. Just making a point, not fun.

If you need a leash and collar, then you are not ready for outside yet.


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## kristin tresidder

when my puppies give me the canine-middle finger for more than a couple of days, i walk away from any real obedience training for a couple of days, they're too young to fight about it with, or force the issue (IMO) so - no obedience at all, and then start up again with easy stuff after a couple of days off to just be puppies. i only occasionally let the dogs, big or little, see me get their reward, whether it's treat or toy.

ETA - i guess it would depend on how young your pup is too... when i wrote the above, i was thinking of young pups...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I know he's testing.

Can't say it is a test if he doesn't know it.


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## Geoff Empey

Chris Michalek said:


> So you think it's a phase or a training issue? I can accept either one.


I think it is a bit of both Chris .. He is about 7- 8 mos right? 

Sure your pup is still that, a pup. Keep it fun but I bet you will get some good results just by going back to the basic groundwork as Connie said. Malinois are amazing animals and a young dog like that show all sorts of mature adult tendencies at a young age and we are quick to forget how young the dog is and since we are impatient humans we can sometimes ask to much. 

Get that damned slip collar/ fur saver on him with a long line or a flexi at all times. And slam his fuzzy arse into the crate all other times you are not training/playing with him. I'm betting he gets a little to much leeway as that reflects in his attitude. 

Me leading up to training or a trial my dog gets a lot more downtime in her crate. Then she seems to appreciate the fact that she is out of the crate and will perform better then just thinking that she rules the roost. 

Back to basics .. (K)eep.(I)t.(S)imple.(S)martguy .. Long line and crates are your friends!


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## Chris Michalek

he's 5.5mo.

Never needed a leash or collar until now. He was always at my side, always did what I said. It's everything, not just OB, things like not jumping into the truck, not coming out of the truck... he's just being a brat.

It could be me too, I don't doubt it. We'll see how he is tonight at the field.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

" if I run he will chase me"..... fun is fun to a dog. He is too young to get angry and I don't think it the FU's. I think he's being a pup. When you are trialing and he doesn't out I'd say that is an FU moment.

Yeah put a collar and leash on the puppy. You don't want to imprint a bad behavior when it can be avoided entirely with a leash & collar. 

My puppy will be 2 in April (((I think))) and I am still use a leash. I am not ready to test his off leash work. Soon but not yet. I use a leash on my AB (unless we are testing). 

You never get a second chance for a first impression why risk it?[-X


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## Chris Michalek

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> " if I run he will chase me"..... fun is fun to a dog. He is too young to get angry and I don't think it the FU's. I think he's being a pup. When you are trialing and he doesn't out I'd say that is an FU moment.
> 
> Yeah put a collar and leash on the puppy. You don't want to imprint a bad behavior when it can be avoided entirely with a leash & collar.
> 
> My puppy will be 2 in April (((I think))) and I am still use a leash. I am not ready to test his off leash work. Soon but not yet. I use a leash on my AB (unless we are testing).
> 
> You never get a second chance for a first impression why risk it?[-X


I know....

I don't chase him. I usually just play with the other dog and then eventually he comes out. This morning he just hid under the bushes, I had him on the long line and was trying to get him to come out then I started using the line and the collar slipped off his head. Then he ran over to the next set of bushes. 

So I just walked to the truck and loaded up the other dog. He came out from the bushes but only walked half way across the field. I called, he wouldn't come. As soon as I walked out on the the field he ran back into the bushes on the far side of the field. So I got in the truck and started driving away. That's when he came out and ran to the truck.


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris Michalek said:


> I called, he wouldn't come. ...


This is a mistake, IMHO, to call a dog when you have doubts about compliance and no way to enforce it (long line). It just demonstrates that the recall is optional.


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## Konnie Hein

Connie Sutherland said:


> How does he know?
> 
> ("Bribe" is very different from "reward." If he's aware of when you do and do not have tangible rewards on you, then I'd wonder whether you bribed rather than rewarded.)


With all due respect, in any training venue I find it hard to believe that a dog wouldn't be able to smell the reward, whether food or toy, on the handler. There's just no way to prevent that from happening unless you own a dog with no sense of smell. I don't bribe (or even do much luring) but I do practice the, "You know I have the food...I know you know I have the food...now here's what you do to get it" approach. The rest of the equation is repetition and properly timed rewards. Works fine for me, both for detection and other training.

Re: Chris's pup...I loved Geoff's post. My thoughts exactly!


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## Konnie Hein

Chris - have you tried waving around a toy (puppy rag or whatever) when the pup won't come? You know, sort of play on the "my toy is better, see how much fun it is??" thing?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Keep a long line on him until he's at least 10-12 months old, if not older, until proven reliable. And this is just me, but always always always have a high priority treat/toy on you to reward a recall if at all possible. This may or may not be desireable for sport, but I like rewarding them just for them coming back around in my general vicinity to "check in on me." Keeping a line on him in the house when he's out of the crate also highly facilitates house training too so you can run him outside real quick.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: . That's when he came out and ran to the truck.

I would have made that bitch run after the truck for a while.

Yes, Maren, tell us all how to train a dog. LOL Soda PoP is a year younger than your dog and comes when called every time. : ) No bolting either, no long line.

MAD Skills.


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## Mike Scheiber

Damn them malinois sound like fun \\/


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## Mike Scheiber

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Keep a long line on him until he's at least 10-12 months old, if not older,


You got to be kidding I would give up dog training if I was that bad or the dog was stupid.


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## James Downey

With my first Malinois, I did the leash thing for a year. It did not have the effect I had hoped. When the leash finally came off and he got some freedom....He bolted. As if he felt free now. Leashes teach oppositional reflex...to move away from you. And if you correct that you really still have only made the dog not pull...they still want to move away from you. They just do not do it because of fear of correction

My next malinois. I gave the dog the choice. I took on lots of walks with out a leash. I would hide if the dog did not pay attention. Or if I could find obstacles that were tough for the dog to negotiate I would cross them. And let the dog panic and figure it out. Everytime the dog got a little anxious because it could not find me or get to me. I would not say word just keep moving away. When the dog finally found me or crossed the obstacle...I would have a wonderful reunion with the dog. This also helps them pay attention to you. My dogs are always checking where I am when we go on walks.

Later the dog got a little braver and wanted to keep having fun on the walk. So, I did what Jeff said. I got in my truck and drove away. The first time she did not seem to care. So, I hid the truck far away...and I hid where she could not see me and I just watch from far away....she finally got anxious and came looking...It took a long time. Then subsequent times She would come running if she heard the truck start. I would make her chase the truck.

But again did I want to do this forever....So, finally the last stage I used some conflict, and taught her she had to listen.

I took her to a fenced baseball field, and did some training and played ball. I knew she was going to try and stay on the field So, I called her...she did not come. I did what every trainer says not to. I gave chase...not fast. I just stalked her. It took like an hour but she finally quit and just laid down. That was the key. She had to make the choice, and she had to learn that if I say come, your ass better come. And if you do not, I coming to get you and I will not quit.

Leashes and what not...just MAKE the dog behave. They do not TEACH the dog a behavior. it's not really training, it's containment. It would be like using a fence to keep the dog in the yard. And then expecting when the fence is removed for the dog to stay in the yard. It just does not work that way. I aslo see people stick thier finger or a remote attena down a dogs throat when the dog does not out...again this just makes the dog out. It does not teach them to out.


And as for the dog knowing if you have treats. I will put treats on fridge, on the bookcase. I have dog treats all over the house. If you use marker training you do not need to have the treats on your person. You can mark and then go get them. My dogs know just because I do not have treats on me...does not me there is no access to them.


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## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: . That's when he came out and ran to the truck.
> 
> I would have made that bitch run after the truck for a while.


"Beaker" is too young for that yet Jeff....LOL Sorry Chris, I could not resist. 8-[ :razz:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: . That's when he came out and ran to the truck.
> 
> I would have made that bitch run after the truck for a while.
> 
> Yes, Maren, tell us all how to train a dog. LOL Soda PoP is a year younger than your dog and comes when called every time. : ) No bolting either, no long line.
> 
> MAD Skills.


Haha, Fawkes didn't try that until he was over a year old and there were only two instances he did it to begin with. :razz: Which is two instances too many, as he hasn't tried it since we got the e-collar in. :twisted: Dammit, it's 12:30 PM, back to radiology. Anyone want a show and tell of the GI tract and repro system? Gotta watch out for those undescended testes.


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## Chris Michalek

Konnie Hein said:


> Chris - have you tried waving around a toy (puppy rag or whatever) when the pup won't come? You know, sort of play on the "my toy is better, see how much fun it is??" thing?


Yes, he still won't come. All of this started on tuesday. Previously he would just follow me and obey what I said. Now he's just not listening and he knows what I want when I wave another toy. He's been having the same issue with his crate. He's spent all of his life in there, he eats his meals in there, I've worked hard to keep it be a happy place for him. 

Over the last couple of days it's been war trying to get him in there. If I'm going to take a shower he knows he's going in his crate. He used to just go in there without me even prompting him. Yesterday and today, he hid behind the couch as soon as I turned the water on. I even threw a couple of weiner chunks in there but he wouldn't go an get them.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: . That's when he came out and ran to the truck.
> 
> I would have made that bitch run after the truck for a while.
> 
> Yes, Maren, tell us all how to train a dog. LOL Soda PoP is a year younger than your dog and comes when called every time. : ) No bolting either, no long line.
> 
> MAD Skills.



I would if I were in the country but it's too dangerous to let a pup run loose in the neighborhood. There happens to be an 11 acre field about a 1/2 mile from my house. It would be stupid of me to let any dog run loose an expect him to get back home.


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## Chris Michalek

we trained tonight and he got his first bit of bitework in since he started teething five weeks ago. His OB was great for a pup that only knows Watch, platz, sitz and come, but then again it was the balabanov tug game he loves to play. He had a real nice intensity. We did maybe a 5-7 minute session and most of it was more play than OB. It was a struggle to put him up. He was fighting the leash and walking back to the truck so I dragged him to his crate. We played a little more tug after that and then he happily went into his crate.

After we worked all the dogs, I thought I'd toss the ball for him to burn the rest of his energy for the night. We did a few short retrieves, he brought it to me the first two times then on the third one he refused to come back with it. The area were we were training is 8 Soccer fields in a large rectangle. He ran way out to the middle of the field and just layed there. So ignored him for at least 15 minutes when he got up and started walking towards me, that's when I praised him. He got within 10 ft of me and I put my hand out for the ball, that when he bolted again and went back to laying out in the middle of the field.

Then I took out my rottie and told him to find the ball. He went out there and took it away from the pup and the puppy chased him back to me which is when I grabbed him and leashed him up. There was another stuggle to get him to load up. But he did it and I only had to drag him a couple of feet before he realized he doesn't like it.

He wouldn't come out of the truck. Normally when I open the crates both dogs jump out and run for the front door of the house. The mal came out and squeezed between the crate and the window to get to the front part of the truck. I went to open the front door and then he ran in back. So I shut all the doors and went in the house. He been in there since I've been on this forum tonight. Maybe 20-30 minutes. Maybe he's ready to come out now. He's being quite the brat tonight.


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## Chris Michalek

well he came out of the truck with no issues. I guess he didn't like being in a cold dark truck all by himself.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Chris - My male was a little like your dog. He loved to play "keep away" for a while when he was young. The pager on the ecollar worked immediately. I think I used it maybe 15 times over a one week period and never had to use it again for the "come" command.

He comes happy, tail and ears up every time.

I don't know why but it worked great with my particular dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Chris - My male was a little like your dog. He loved to play "keep away" for a while when he was young. The pager on the ecollar worked immediately. I think I used it maybe 15 times over a one week period and never had to use it again for the "come" command.

He comes happy, tail and ears up every time.

I don't know why but it worked great with my particular dog.


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## Konnie Hein

Chris Michalek said:


> Yes, he still won't come. All of this started on tuesday. Previously he would just follow me and obey what I said. Now he's just not listening and he knows what I want when I wave another toy. He's been having the same issue with his crate. He's spent all of his life in there, he eats his meals in there, I've worked hard to keep it be a happy place for him.
> 
> Over the last couple of days it's been war trying to get him in there. If I'm going to take a shower he knows he's going in his crate. He used to just go in there without me even prompting him. Yesterday and today, he hid behind the couch as soon as I turned the water on. I even threw a couple of weiner chunks in there but he wouldn't go an get them.


I figured you tried that (it's the first thing I'd try), but thought I'd bring it up just in case. Sounds like he's quite a stinker. The last Mal pup I raised was very similar at that age (although he took it to the next level by trying to seriously attack me when I put him in his crate). Perhaps it's just a phase and he's just testing the waters? 

Isn't this the age where the testosterone starts to really get flowing?

BTW - this totally reminds me of my 3 1/2 year old daughter...same attitude! :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
I would if I were in the country but it's too dangerous to let a pup run loose in the neighborhood. There happens to be an 11 acre field about a 1/2 mile from my house. It would be stupid of me to let any dog run loose an expect him to get back home.

Let him chase the truck around the field then. I didn't mean for some great distance, or on the street.


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## Anne Vaini

> So, I called her...she did not come. I did what every trainer says not to. I gave chase...not fast. I just stalked her. It took like an hour but she finally quit and just laid down. That was the key. She had to make the choice, and she had to learn that if I say come, your ass better come. And if you do not, I coming to get you and I will not quit.


It's called "walking down" a dog and it's super cool to watch a trainer who has mastered it. I am not very good at doing it with other people's dogs, but I've done it with my dogs went I've screwed up training and need to salvage the situation. I did it with Emma once when she wandered from a long down - she stopped and rolled on her back and waited for me to get her. :lol:

Natural consequences are good! The 5 - 6 month old Mali I have her took to bolting out of the car - not to run away, but just to bolt out of the car. I put her leash on the shifter, got out of the car and went inside. She bolted as I was getting out and after a few minutes in the cold, decided the car was a little nicer. She hasn't bolted out of the car since!

The last couple days, she's becoming a little sh*tter. Lots of exercise and prey drive play keep her (mostly) calm.


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## Chris Michalek

I can't really do that Jeff. The 11 acre field is at the end of my neighborhood and behind a church. I can leave the parking lot but that about it, otherwise there are too many streets for him to deal with and it's simply too risky.

I'm thinking about "uping" the OB sessions. I purposely haven't done much other than basic OB. Now that he's older and thinks he can test me maybe I should push back and work him a littler harder. Don't these Mals mature a lot quicker than Rotts? 

I haven't done any duration work with his sitting, platz or watch me. We haven't worked on any heeling or motion exercises. Perhaps upping the ante with give me more control?

I've never had the issues with any of my other dogs that I've had with the puppy over the last couple of days. The big difference is the amount of OB. A few people suggested that my rottie had too much OB at an early age so I'm playing my cards differently this time. Different breeds though...

What do you guys think?


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Walking down a dog is a gamble, some dogs will take off and never stop, even your own dogs. If you attempt this anywhere where the dog has a possibility to get into a dangerous situation like run into traffic you're running a risk. It's a method that I scratched off the list. First I will never put my dog in a situation where I'm not sure of a recall or that the dog is contained. If against plans I find myself in a situation where I can't recover the dog I'd try crouching down, pretending I have something in my hand and running away from it first before I try to go pick it up unless it's a pup that I can outmaneuver.

I don't believe in all those psychological games. It does sound logical but flies out the window when the dog has something much more interesting to it pop up. I believe that the underlying reason why some people don't just go and teach real obedience to the dog whether it be the recall or a down is because they're afraid to do something to their own dog that will make it stop liking them.

Chris, at this point you need to stop what you're doing and start obedience training your dog systematically to the point where you can start the recall. There's no way around it unless you want to keep doing this dance forever.


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## Anne Vaini

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm thinking about "uping" the OB sessions. I purposely haven't done much other than basic OB. Now that he's older and thinks he can test me maybe I should push back and work him a littler harder. Don't these Mals mature a lot quicker than Rotts?
> 
> I haven't done any duration work with his sitting, platz or watch me. We haven't worked on any heeling or motion exercises. Perhaps upping the ante with give me more control?
> 
> I've never had the issues with any of my other dogs that I've had with the puppy over the last couple of days. The big difference is the amount of OB. A few people suggested that my rottie had too much OB at an early age so I'm playing my cards differently this time. Different breeds though...
> 
> What do you guys think?


I'd up the exercise and the OB both. The 5 - 6 mali pup here is doing 5 minute sit stays, 10 minute down stays. I've never done so much duration with a puppy. With Emma, I didn't require more than 2 seconds of duration at this age (that bit me in the arse later).

Maybe an emergency down trained in drive? That sounds super fun. I bet your pup would love it. It would be perfect to train this before adding duration to any behaviors.


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## Michelle Reusser

My dog did the same thing. I did puppy OB, sit, heel, down and when this crap started, I just quit doing any OB until he got his shit together. Regarding the running off crap, leave him kenneled or leashed at all times. My dogs sister was the same way. I quickly got sick of her shit, didn't take her out of the yard for play time to the park anymore and I never got a chance to see if she grew out of it. I sent her back. LOL 

Not sure where the running off thing came from, never had another dog do that to me. Baden will go lay away from me but not just plain leave me hangin'. Maybe she was pissy because she lived in the house for 2 months after I got her then I booted her? LOL Baden wasn't allowed by my CF BF at the time to stay inside. He was a kennel boy from day 1.


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## Anne Vaini

Chris,

How much work on attention do you do? Attention training (which is heeling, leave it, recall) can make a huge difference in a young dog.

IMO - there's no point in training ANYTHING if you don't have the attention/recall down pat.


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## James Downey

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Walking down a dog is a gamble, some dogs will take off and never stop, even your own dogs. If you attempt this anywhere where the dog has a possibility to get into a dangerous situation like run into traffic you're running a risk. It's a method that I scratched off the list. First I will never put my dog in a situation where I'm not sure of a recall or that the dog is contained. If against plans I find myself in a situation where I can't recover the dog I'd try crouching down, pretending I have something in my hand and running away from it first before I try to go pick it up unless it's a pup that I can outmaneuver.
> 
> I don't believe in all those psychological games. It does sound logical but flies out the window when the dog has something much more interesting to it pop up. I believe that the underlying reason why some people don't just go and teach real obedience to the dog whether it be the recall or a down is because they're afraid to do something to their own dog that will make it stop liking them.
> 
> Chris, at this point you need to stop what you're doing and start obedience training your dog systematically to the point where you can start the recall. There's no way around it unless you want to keep doing this dance forever.


 
I would think it's safe to say everyone here know that you should not chase a dog on a busy street...I think everyone here is past the Petco dog training classes.

And what's real obedience? My dog "really" comes to me when I call it. In fact. I can call my dog from play with other dogs, eating raw meat...Off her sleeve. 

I also think the considering the relationship you have with your dog and how your training will effect that relationship is a very very important componet to training.


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## Chris Michalek

Anne Vaini said:


> Chris,
> 
> How much work on attention do you do? Attention training (which is heeling, leave it, recall) can make a huge difference in a young dog.
> 
> IMO - there's no point in training ANYTHING if you don't have the attention/recall down pat.


as you know, I work from home so there is always a little OB every time I'm up. 

my general path is/was:

1. out/come
2. watch
3.sit along with come/sit (front)
4. down
5. Stand

(haven't started yet)

6. heel position with flip finish.
7. heel with motion forward/back/sideways
8. reverse heel
9. heel between legs
10. formal retrieves
11. running around objects
12. send out



then I add duration.


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## Bob Scott

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Walking down a dog is a gamble, some dogs will take off and never stop, even your own dogs. If you attempt this anywhere where the dog has a possibility to get into a dangerous situation like run into traffic you're running a risk. It's a method that I scratched off the list. First I will never put my dog in a situation where I'm not sure of a recall or that the dog is contained. If against plans I find myself in a situation where I can't recover the dog I'd try crouching down, pretending I have something in my hand and running away from it first before I try to go pick it up unless it's a pup that I can outmaneuver.
> 
> I don't believe in all those psychological games. It does sound logical but flies out the window when the dog has something much more interesting to it pop up. I believe that the underlying reason why some people don't just go and teach real obedience to the dog whether it be the recall or a down is because they're afraid to do something to their own dog that will make it stop liking them.
> 
> Chris, at this point you need to stop what you're doing and start obedience training your dog systematically to the point where you can start the recall. There's no way around it unless you want to keep doing this dance forever.


It's not a gamble if you truely know the dog AND the situation. My dog and my back yard. 
I've not had a dog, that I've raised from a pup, that wouldn't come when called. I've never understood having to "train" a recall.
Your correct! I wouldn't call a young dog if whatever it's interested in is higher value. I never call a pup/dog to correct it.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

You know, I don't even like to run after pups.

If you know the situation why would you do a walk down? If your dog is trained, it should come. If it's not then you shouldn't put in a position where a walk down may become necessary.


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## Bob Scott

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> You know, I don't even like to run after pups.


Probably the #1 reason pups learn to run from their owners! 
It's a bad idea wether it's to catch a runaway or just playing keep away games.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Anyone want a show and tell of the GI tract and repro system? 

Sure, why not.

I have about one incedent with this when they are that age and that is about it. I did not grow up with touchy feely dog training. If the dog runs off, I go and snatch them up by their scruff and tuck them under my arm and throw them in the crate. If they want to put on their big boy pants, which some of them do, it goes really bad for them. I do not wait around to see if they grow out of it.

I have chased a pup around a car for 45 minutes, he was terrified by the time he gave in and rolled over. I snapped a leash on him, patted his head and took him back to the house. I am sure the neighbors thought I was insane. I did not wack him, he was terrified by that point.

I have had an incedent with just about every dog I have had since a pup at this age. If the dog is not wanting to go into the crate, I throw them into the crate. I do not make a big deal of it, but they stop that silly shit right then. I will continue to throw them into the crate until they figure it out if they are stronger pups. I do not change anything that we do, I just do not put up with it.

I have the mentality that if you want to do your own thing, then so do I, and see ya. I will, and have left dogs, drove off a bit, and walked back to get them. They do panic, as they are still young and insecure. I use this against them. Soda did this for about a week and I would just walk away and go to the house. This was what I thought was best for her, but she proved me wrong, and got snatched up. She never bolted off, but didn't want to go in the house yet. Just stood there looking at me. I know the next step was the bolting shit. **** her, stay outside by yourself. I then played with Buko in the house. HA HA.

Been good about what I want since.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Anyone want a show and tell of the GI tract and repro system?
> 
> Sure, why not.
> 
> I have about one incedent with this when they are that age and that is about it. I did not grow up with touchy feely dog training. If the dog runs off, I go and snatch them up by their scruff and tuck them under my arm and throw them in the crate. If they want to put on their big boy pants, which some of them do, it goes really bad for them. I do not wait around to see if they grow out of it.


That's more or less how I raised my rotties. Everything is trained/taught in a very positive fashion but if the dog is gonna test me on it the dog is gonna lose. We started that regimen with the Mal yesterday and ya know what? He's listening now.

No issue with going into his crate this morning. No issues with getting in the car or out of the car. Yesterday I tied a 100ft section of 550 paracord to his harness. He tried to bolt and got yanked off his feet for it. Then he tried it again and got yanked off his feet for it. No incident yesterday evening, last night or this morning.

Sometimes a little ass kicking is what these dogs need. =D>

BTW- it was all followed up with a heavy amount of praise or play. All is good. We'll see how he is over the next couple of days.


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## James Downey

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> You know, I don't even like to run after pups.
> 
> If you know the situation why would you do a walk down? If your dog is trained, it should come. If it's not then you shouldn't put in a position where a walk down may become necessary.


 
Emilio, I did the walk down out of a recommendation from Uschi Fuchs. And the dog was not trained...I agree on this. as I stated the walk down was the training that proofed my recall. I only had to do this about 3 times. I have never had a recall problem again. So, the results of the walk down, by your own definition is it trained the dog. 

So, I do not understand how you can advise against something when someone is saying it worked....and was done by the recommendation of a World Champion.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Because I think it should work for many different temperaments before it can be advocated as a "training method". I raised a mastiff breed pup recently. She had a good level of what we can call pack drive? I never had to leash train her from a puppy, just took her for a walk. The bracing and straining against the pull of the leash never happened. The same compliance when she'd disobey and run off my front yard onto to the road and receive a correction. I followed a short teaching phase where she understood that I don't approve of this. When it came time to correct for the same I'd walk over and grab her, a couple of slaps on the butt and a push in the right direction, back to the house. I had to do this a few times till she knew not to run to the road any more. Even though she knew that I was coming to give a correction she never tried to run away and just accepted it. I knew it was a bluff on my part because all she had to do was bolt but I also knew the dog and knew that she wouldn't. This doesn't mean I advocate this method, I was just being lazy and could get away with it with that particular dog. Many other dogs will run once they've experienced what's coming one or two times.


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## James Downey

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Because I think it should work for many different temperaments before it can be advocated as a "training method". I raised a mastiff breed pup recently. She had a good level of what we can call pack drive? I never had to leash train her from a puppy, just took her for a walk. The bracing and straining against the pull of the leash never happened. The same compliance when she'd disobey and run off my front yard onto to the road and receive a correction. I followed a short teaching phase where she understood that I don't approve of this. When it came time to correct for the same I'd walk over and grab her, a couple of slaps on the butt and a push in the right direction, back to the house. I had to do this a few times till she knew not to run to the road any more. Even though she knew that I was coming to give a correction she never tried to run away and just accepted it. I knew it was a bluff on my part because all she had to do was bolt but I also knew the dog and knew that she wouldn't. This doesn't mean I advocate this method, I was just being lazy and could get away with it with that particular dog. Many other dogs will run once they've experienced what's coming one or two times.


Emilio I think that it's always dangerous to start thinking of terms of black and white when it comes to dog training. There is a lot of leeway when it comes to temperment from one training theory to the next. But there are some truths to dog training. There are some "constants" that remain with every dog. One of them is every behavior at its root seeks pleasure and/or avoids displeasure. Another is any behavior that fails to gain pleasure and/or avoid displeasure will go extinct. ( I know that some people here will either have or know a dog that is a exception to this rule of learning. This is a condintion known as congnative delay or for you PC hating folks, retarded.) When this is applied. Sooner or later every dog, regardless of temperment the dog will eventually figure out that running from you is never going to work and I have the sneaking suspicion most dogs will not last very long. Now will it extinuish running away in every dog, and proof it forever. I do not think so. But if you always make the dog quit. But you seem to be doing this every time the dog is called. I agree it's time to re-evaluate...And if the trainer continues to do it with no results...they, themselves most likely are retarded (I am sure we have all seen these people training).

And Emilio.... I have to ask. How many temperment types does a training theory have to be effective on in order to be classified a training method? Because my guess if it worked on one dog. it will probably work on a few more.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

James Downey said:


> And Emilio.... I have to ask. How many temperment types does a training theory have to be effective on in order to be classified a training method? Because my guess if it worked on one dog. it will probably work on a few more.


Depends a training method for what. For basic obedience the answer would be all. And the recall is part of basic obedience. Why would I waste my time with a method which if doesn't work I'll have to switch to another one. OK maybe the exact training method doesn't have to be the same but the underlying principle has to be the same.

If the dog is bolting then it is not coming. If it's not coming then it needs to be trained the recall. If it's going to be trained the recall it has to be conditioned that when it hears "come" his reaction is to turn his head to the handler and the body follows all the way back to the handler. You're not going to achieve this by walking it down and making it crouch so WTF do it in the first place.


James Downey said:


> Sooner or later every dog, regardless of temperment the dog will eventually figure out that running from you is never going to work and I have the sneaking suspicion most dogs will not last very long.


Hopefully not as long as it would take for it to get hit by a car. Think of the average city person looking to get good results trying to do this. But hey cool, to each their own. Just my side of it.


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## Chris Michalek

well I gotta say a little compulsion seems to have fixed the issue. two trips to the field, no leash, no paracord, no issues.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Good job Chris. Do you think it will hold? Although I had a dog who's recall I fixed forever with a single correction. I shot him in the ass with a sling shot and after that he'd come like lightning.


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## Chris Michalek

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Good job Chris. Do you think it will hold? Although I had a dog who's recall I fixed forever with a single correction. I shot him in the ass with a sling shot and after that he'd come like lightning.


we'll see, he's a pup. I've got not issues with shaking him up a bit. I was always afraid to in the past because he seems to frail compared to the rotties.

Anyway, it's obvious he's much more compliant and respectful.


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## Jaimie Van Orden

I hope the Eff yous are over for you=) 
A BS bitch i know takes off on her owner all the time, i was dog watching one weekend and she did it once, and only once to me, when I didnt make it a chase game, but instead just walked right up to her like she HAD to stay, she rolled. Like I said, she never did it to me again.


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## Chris Michalek

heh heh... I think he's got it now. I thought I'd try it without his harness today and he bolted on me when I told him it was time to go. He ran a few dozen feet away and looked back and saw me walking after him. Then he changed direction and ran to the truck jump in his crate. 

Good boy!!


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## Tiffany Geisen

I remember the first time Ryot decided he was going to run from me when i told him to kennel. He did it twice and both times he didn't make it very far before I tackled his ass and drag it back to the front of the crate. I didn't cram him in I simply retold him to kennel and he went in. 
Chris, we both got our pups at the same time and they are the same age. I would definetly amp up your OB. We are working on duration, heel, downs in motion and placeing on anything i think he can stand or sit on. I started recalls at 10 weeks old. The second person holds while you run like hell away from them. He would get so mad he would bite who ever was holding him from me. At first it was straight lines but then we graduated to letting him see me go and then i would hide and call hm. When he found me I would make a huge deal about it and I always had some form of reward. Luckily its stuck and he comes back when I call him. Occasionally you can see the gears aturning like he's thinking about not coming but before he can turn and run I do and he tears after me. I also rarely ask him to do something if I don't have some form of reward for what he gives me. I still get the puppy f u's mine likes to click his jaw at me every time I ask him to do anything. He does it he just feels he should let me know what he thinks about the situation. A few weeks back I had a ton of errands to run and didn't throw him in the back of the truck, instead he stayed in his crate at home. Well apparently he felt he should not have had to hold it that long so he lifted his leg and pissed out the front of his crate what do you do? He didn't pee in it..... Its been pretty crazy raising a mal and as if one wasn't enough I took in a 10 month old mal who was returned to the breeder. And it just happens to be a litter mate to crazy Soda Pop..... To say the least the last 6 weeks have been very interesting.


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## Chris Michalek

actually things have been going quite well. I got a little hard on him a couple of times and there haven't been any issues yet. Now his deal is protesting... I'll tell him to do something and if it's going into his crate then he barks at me or clicks his teeth but he always does right after I tell him.

We made it past the four minute mark on his long down yesterday and today. This is my first mal and I'm really liking the breed. I wish I had been into them ten years ago.


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> actually things have been going quite well. I got a little hard on him a couple of times and there haven't been any issues yet. Now his deal is protesting... I'll tell him to do something and if it's going into his crate then he barks at me or clicks his teeth but he always does right after I tell him.
> 
> We made it past the four minute mark on his long down yesterday and today. This is my first mal and I'm really liking the breed. I wish I had been into them ten years ago.


After leaving the Rottweiler fold I could never consider another Rott I'm a sport guy and the Rottweiler is not the dog for me I like a dog the gives I grew tired of extracting.
We have been training with Greg Doud and he really laid into Angeli's dog Griffen man he responds nice to heavy pressure. 
However that's the part I hate about Rottweilers they only give back as much as you toss at them.
About once a month we would have to put the leather to my Rott Joker and tune him up to keep him from becoming complacent. Its bullshit!!


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