# I see a definite pattern developing



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am curious if anyone has bred enough to see this pattern. Over the years, I have had some beautiful, but very masculine females. They had the males massive heads, build and attitude. They have all been crap producers, bar none. If they breed, they have a couple of small litters and they are finished. Problem is, they don't look like this as pups. They just grow into it. I have one now that had 5 nice pups the first time. Was bred for sure the second time and had no pups. Her sisters, both very feminine looking threw 14 and 12 pups first go around. Had two others, very masculine that didn't breed at all, and one several years back that produced some nice pups and quit after two litters. There has to be something to it.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Someone on the forum commented to me about something similar a while ago. I believe it was something along the lines of never again breeding the masculine females that lift their legs to pee and have other masculine traits/habits, that they are nuts and seem more likely to kill all their puppies. I could be remembering it wrong. Maybe he will see this thread and chime in.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't know if I agree with this, I've had females that are masculine in appearance, and females who are feminine in appearance but lifted their leg and such. Each has had 8-13 pups in different litters (10 seems to be about average) and each has been a very good mom. Also no problems getting pregnant.

It might be a trend if you looked at 100 females, I'm only thinking about 3 different ones, but none had the problem. I did hear from a long time breeder one time that her best competition females were (in general) not very good moms, and her more average females (competition wise) were actually her better moms and producers. So she did see that trend in her dogs. Interesting side note, she was the breeder of the mother of one of the dogs I mentioned above. So although she saw it in her dogs, I didn't see it in mine, even the ones that come down from hers.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Didn't Maren comment on a study about the female being carried in the womb between two males as being more masculine? Als a male that is carried between two females being less masculine?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Tiko must have been between 2 females then.

Was there a study on pups being influenced by clowns? That would be Yasko.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Are we talking all breeds here?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have Airedales but am curious if it is noticeable in then other breeds as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I experienced something similar to what you are experiencing, but it wasn't a particular build.....which is interesting by the way. I had found that certain lines just sorta die out. One of my criteria for breeding is definately large numbers of puppies, versus less. I do not like to breed females that act like males, never have, so maybe that is why I did not see what is occuring with you. Sterility definately occured with one line I bred tightly on, to the point where I had 1 out of a litter that produced..........or made pups I should say.

I have the obvious questions, like is this females pups more likely to look like her ? Do her sisters produce this as well ?

How many lines do you have ???

By the way I love this shit. I really like guessing what is gonna happen......as no one really can guess x amount of generations down the line. So much fun to talk about.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff, it apparently is tied to the fact that these particular bitches got more than their share of testoterone. They are very feminine as pups but they just keep muscling up and the head keeps getting broader like a male as they mature..... but more slowly.

The feminine sisters are great producers. The one I am seeing this in at the moment is the oldest of the three sisters to produce the reverse cross. The mother is a great producer also even though she will go around behind the males and hike her leg. She will also go toe to toe with the males but she lack the size these other bitches have.
I originally kept these pups because they were tenatious at 6 weeks and a couple were the roughest in the litter. In the ones where they were not the roughest, the top male was a bad Jose and usually good sized.
The 10th generation produces my favorite pups as a whole and luckily, they are back to a mid sized(75lbs +/-) dog as a norm. I didn't like that they kept getting bigger because some were toping 100 lbs in the later generations.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff, coming back to your questions. I have one line. Couldn't begin to afford 2. I only keep high producing females because I tightened them up the losses grew. At the worst time, I would lose as many as 80% in some crosses. Some naturally, some with help. At his point it was do or die and I tightened them up again. Only lost 50%. Kept tightening until some are 100% again. I only use the mid generation dogs to get a specific male or female now and am concentrating on two 10 gen crosses which come from two pairs of bro/sis crosses. Basically the same cross but one is the bro/sis in reverse. These are the first two crosses that produced all confident pups with no conditioning. When I am in the yard I have to drag them around on my pants leg. Took a chair out there the other day to play with them and as I picked each one up, the rest were all at my feet. Didn't know it at the time but they chewed the laces off of both boots. Gotta love em. These pups were never touched until they were 4 weeks old. I do believe al this socializing today is BS. It is conditioining pure and simple. The purpose is to cover the inherent weaknesses in a good percentage of most litters. Let's face it, would you buy a pup that ran from you?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The purpose is to cover the inherent weaknesses in a good percentage of most litters. Let's face it, would you buy a pup that ran from you?

Don, most people do not like to face the reality of their breeding program. Many have a public image to protect, so they do a lot of work with the pups. And **** no, I would not buy a pup like that.

I am sure this "style" of puppy rearing came around as breeders started listening to the idiot buyers. I have to talked with a lot of breeders and it is a pain in the ass to deal with the public for them. Like here, (forum) people with no practical experience will "tell" you what you are doing wrong.

I am thinking that you will be clearing up this anomaly, and creating even stronger dogs. I remember having a problem around the 10th gen as well. I always figured it was me, but I have had some smart people tell me that it happens with everything bred this way.

Still would like to see what you could do with Mals LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don, I don't remember if you saw or were on that thread, but here's the one I started a while back on the effect of intrauterine position on males and females (the one Bob mention). 2F female mice (females that are sandwiched between two sisters and thus have higher levels of estradiol_ in utero_) are considered more attractive by males and 2M females are more aggressive towards conspecifics and males find these less 2M females less attractive. This effect in 2M females is likely amplified if she's spayed. I posted the final draft of that paper I wrote (it's not too long) on page 4 of the thread.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/females-mostly-male-litters-1830/

Edit: oh yeah, you did see that thread. May be connected, who knows?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren, I do remember that thjread. Also, I am dying to see you post on inbreeding and the immune system. You promised!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Haha, sorry, I know, I just got back in town real late last night. I was helping Ann Freier get her new GSD up to Nebraska for her and then I was visiting the parentals for a few days. I didn't forget! :grin:


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