# Civil agitation reaction



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-G29qLy-sk&feature=related

At about 4 seconds into the video, the dog sniffs the decoy's hands............i thought the dog would bite instead with all the strong barking.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

This is why I like dogs that bring it to the decoys, instead of having the decoy stimulate civil aggression. 

Its hard to find them like that.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Just another bluff dog.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dog looks young. Anyway....you could see instantly the dog didn't want to be there.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

The handler almost hangs the dog and are over him and the decoy Dosent do mutch.
If the handler vuld releas the dogs leash and give him rome with the decoy doing a Move i think it wuld be diferent. Stupid situation to place the dog in, à fear biter wuld have bit, in what way wuld that be good?


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

I agree, the dog looks young and a bit confused, hard to tell with such a short vid. I'd like to see more of what was happening beforehand. Here's more vids of the same dog on a sleeve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avk-3a5Hndc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9WclPdHyHY&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Ang


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

That looks better, however, there is a lot of decoy stimulation... 
I could be wrong, but it seems to me there has been a lot of drive building done to the dog. 

I'd like to see a clearer head in the work, more active aggression and less decoy stimulation. 



Just my opinion,

Merry Christmas


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Looks like the dogs DOB is Nov. 2010, so he was about 12mo, or less, in the vids.
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/955553/Verdi-Vikar-CS/30882592884w2t4e

Ang


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

thats to much pressure for that dog plain and simple.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> That looks better, however, there is a lot of decoy stimulation...
> I could be wrong, but it seems to me there has been a lot of drive building done to the dog.
> 
> I'd like to see a clearer head in the work, more active aggression and less decoy stimulation.
> ...


if the dog withers under pressure (which he is doing) drive building is a moot point. It's like running to change a flat on a car with a blown motor. JMHO


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I realy downt get the thing with some folks and ther crasy fasiantion with wips....


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

a seven second video where the dog enters at the 4 second mark ???

forget about the dog....it's 3 seconds of watching two stupid handlers screw up a young pup imo ](*,)](*,)


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

rick smith said:


> a seven second video where the dog enters at the 4 second mark ???
> 
> forget about the dog....it's 3 seconds of watching two stupid handlers screw up a young pup imo ](*,)](*,)


Thank you rick..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

3 seconds is no where near enough for me.

Although I can say if I did that with my own dog, I would have gotten bitten, most likely...I just dont know the circumstances to make a judgement.

a young dog...maybe the first time seeing anything like that...and who knows, that coulda been his normal "training buddy" decoy, or a friend of the dog...

or maybe the guy was proving a point...who knows...

could see a lot more out of the dog if he was posted up, and given a fair chance...

anyone know the dog or individuals in the video?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm with you Rick.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Lack of equipment is the key here I believe. Especially after watching the other videos that were posted. Don't think the dog was properly given a foundation in civil work for starters.

Secondly...WTF is up with that decoy whipping the dog's neck like that when it's on the bite? I hate that sh*t. No need for it. Too easy to cause an injury. No one tell me it's to set the bite. I ain't buying it.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Lack of equipment is the key here I believe. Especially after watching the other videos that were posted. Don't think the dog was properly given a foundation in civil work for starters.
> 
> Secondly...WTF is up with that decoy whipping the dog's neck like that when it's on the bite? I hate that sh*t. No need for it. Too easy to cause an injury. No one tell me it's to set the bite. I ain't buying it.


 
What do you mean lack of equipment? Just wondering?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> What do you mean lack of equipment? Just wondering?


 Watch the two videos that the dog looks decent in. The dog appears to be in a straight up forward aggression mode but from what I see there is a lot of prey drive coming out. The sleeve is prey in those two videos. In the first video there is no sleeve. The dog is displaying a trained reaction but falls short absent the sleeve...ergo, no bite. The dog just needs to have civil work done right. JMO anyway. Even in the face of the whip the dog stays focused on the sleeve. His bark remains the same...prey bark.

A short 5 second video doesn't tell you much. Could be I'm waaay off the mark.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

granted the set up sucks all the way around..

I was just trying to figure out if the dog was supposed to be shown in a good light, or a bad one, by the video poster...that is why I asked if anyone knows the players....might just be a novice owner, of a pup out of some good dogs, messing around, and thought it was good stuff...or could be someone that knows it was not that great, and decided to post it...

I have done that kind of shit before, to prove a dog would not bite me..based on cocky know-it-all handlers that have made comments that I inquired about...that led into challenges...(been bitten a coupla times, my bad)..but my success rate is well over 80%...the most recent one was a 7 month old pup that DID bite me..had to have the owner pry him off..lost that one  .I dont do the gloved hand crap, I toss a forearm in there...which theoretically should HELP the dog...that has sleeve work...

I agree with Howard, and basically everyone who said this was a shitt setup...

there are plenty of adult dogs that would not bite in this scenario...I have tested many of them in 360 degree handler protection (civil) scenarios at PP "events"...seem to show real true aggression..barking all the way...ugly faces, eye contact...toss yer arm in the circle they almost never try to take it...i did say almost... have been bitten in the stomach a few times...for getting too close...

dog sure has his ugly face, and seems to handle pressure well...WHILE ON THE BITE...

he is young and inexperienced though, and probably was unfairly put in this scenario..and I cant judge the dog...

I also would say...I would probably not try with that dog next year..


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ah, thanks Howard and Joby. I see what you’re saying. Seems like a lot of people on here are really quick to know it all in 2 seconds? I would think that we turned on the cameras a lot we would all have a few seconds of some bad video .. or more.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

also will add..after seeing this I found a littermate to this dog that is being worked by Vit Glisnik...

ALL of the videos look way better...

here is video of Vinny Vikar at 12 months..

If you watch the ones of Verdi, you seen gathering and hesitation on the approach..

here is vinny...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5SksugTkvs&feature=player_embedded

it COULD be that vinny is getting better work, or that he is just a better dog. and I do realize it is all sleeve work in the vinny vids on youtube...but the bitework does show a difference..

one thing I can say is I could not find among the dozen or so vids of vinny on youtube, any displays of his civil work...that could be because they are not messing with him....like that...yet...

I see lots of gathering and also dogs putting on the breaks, that may not be as good, or may just have gotten the shaft in training...some where some how.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Howard, watch the first vid again, there is a sleeve on the left arm, which is probably be further confusing the dog if they're truly trying to get civil work out of him. 

4 seconds of this vid is hardly time enough to judge anything though.

Ang


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ang Cangiano said:


> Howard, watch the first vid again, there is a sleeve on the left arm, which is probably be further confusing the dog if they're truly trying to get civil work out of him.
> 
> 4 seconds of this vid is hardly time enough to judge anything though.
> 
> Ang


I WATCHED IT LIKE 5 TIMES, NEVER SAW THAT...

good eye..rest my case..


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Ang Cangiano said:


> Howard, watch the first vid again, there is a sleeve on the left arm, which is probably be further confusing the dog if they're truly trying to get civil work out of him.
> 
> 4 seconds of this vid is hardly time enough to judge anything though.
> 
> Ang


 Did not see that. Thanks.

Extremely strong prey for the sleeve to a fault possibly. Again, just a guess.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Did not see that. Thanks.
> 
> Extremely strong prey for the sleeve to a fault possibly. Again, just a guess.


I agree...possibly...but possibly not..possibly just a bad time to shoot video, from someone that does not really know any better, or someone that might have ill intentions...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ah, thanks Howard and Joby. I see what you’re saying. Seems like a lot of people on here are really quick to know it all in 2 seconds?


 I don't follow.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Just reading some of the other posts about wreaking dogs and all from 3 seconds of video


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree...possibly...but possibly not..possibly just a bad time to shoot video, from someone that does not really know any better, or someone that might have ill intentions...


 Bad time or not, the result was the same.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Just reading some of the other posts about wreaking dogs and all from 3 seconds of video


 Got it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Bad time or not, the result was the same.


I agree...not good...


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I dont look at that dog as a high "prey" dog. Real, true prey drive requires an element of aggression or seriousness. Too many dogs are classed as high prey drive when infact they are just play driven booty dogs. People then require defence in their dogs to get a level of seriousness, so the pain induced aggression is used. 
This is a GSD that I would say has real high "prey" drive and I would not take my chances with putting my hand in like they did with the orginial dog in the thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHYtXzYLjvk


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I dont look at that dog as a high "prey" dog. Real, true prey drive requires an element of aggression or seriousness. Too many dogs are classed as high prey drive when infact they are just play driven booty dogs. People then require defence in their dogs to get a level of seriousness, so the pain induced aggression is used.
> This is a GSD that I would say has real high "prey" drive and I would not take my chances with putting my hand in like they did with the orginial dog in the thread.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHYtXzYLjvk


dude you must be high..

this is a PREMIERE LOU and DON passing dog..


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> dude you must be high..
> 
> this is a PREMIERE LOU and DON passing dog..


I havent had any codiene for months....lol
I dont really care who was doing the test, I judge what I see by my own eyes.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I doubt this is a case of bad genetics. I watch a lot of glisnik videos and it seems they like to do more of prey work and their training produces very fast dogs.
I believe the dog's reaction is a result of its training. The dog never showed fear.
This i believe is a better way to test for civil drive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbHnT20OuSU&feature=related


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Obi

Better then the first video but the dog still keeps looking back at the sleeve. Training involves the use of equipment including hidden sleeves. The dog knows the difference 
I like the guys that know 100% their dogs will bite for real even though the dog has never had a live bite in his life.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I like the guys that know 100% their dogs will bite for real even though the dog has never had a live bite in his life.


Thomas there are dogs out there that will take anything offered to them. First time you stand in front of them with a sleeve, they bite it. First time someone stands in front of them in a suit, they take it. First time hidden sleeve, hidden suit, muzzel, first time leg, etc etc. Im going to give these dogs the benefit of the doubt that they will take your bare hand or arm the first time it is offered, unlike the original video.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris,

I don't disagree that there are dogs like that out there.
I'm just saying you don't know for sure your dog will bite for real until he does. Biting equipment (any equipment) is different from a live bite.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Obi
> 
> Better then the first video but the dog still keeps looking back at the sleeve. Training involves the use of equipment including hidden sleeves. The dog knows the difference
> I like the guys that know 100% their dogs will bite for real even though the dog has never had a live bite in his life.


True, 
But if i had seen the sleeve in the first video on time i won't have been as surprised. The dog was fixed on the sleeve, doesn't necessarily imply it didn't have any civil drive , it may not have viewed the decoy as a threat at all.
The second dog is also young and 'pretty green' in the video, Nate Harves is still working on him. His bitework is very good.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> True,
> But if i had seen the sleeve in the first video on time i won't have been as surprised. The dog was fixed on the sleeve, doesn't necessarily imply it didn't have any civil drive , it may not have viewed the decoy as a threat at all.
> The second dog is also young and 'pretty green' in the video, Nate Harves is still working on him. His bitework is very good.


Hi Obi

The point of testing for Civil Drive is you shouldn't have equipment around to distract the dog. Especially not actually
wearing the equipment 
Nate is an excellent trainer.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I've seen dogs being tested for "civil drive" with a sleeve on one arm and the other arm with nothing on... 

The dog would get offered the arm with nothing on and after showing it would take the arm without equipment, offered a bite on the sleeve. There was no snarling or anything involved... The dog would just take it, because it was the first thing available to grab. I dont believe in dogs that you must "make civil". 

IMO, a good dog will bite whatever you're putting in front of its mouth... Therefore, in my opinion, this explanation of civil drive vs equipment fixated, is just another debate around whether a dog has real fight drive or not. 

IMO, a good dog with true active aggression when stimulated for a fight will take whatever is given to him, simply because he loves to fight and bite.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I've seen dogs being tested for "civil drive" with a sleeve on one arm and the other arm with nothing on... .


Tiago,

I have to disagree with you there. Civil drive by definition is the willingness to bite without equipment. How do you "test" for civil drive using equipment? If you get a dog high enough in prey drive or fight drive or defense and then present a bare arm he
likely will bite it. That doesn't mean he'll bite the guy with no
equipment when pushes comes to shove?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I understand where you're coming from. I guess its easier if you witnessed than read it on a forum. 

That dog would bite you equipment on or off... He loves to bite and it does not matter what you wear when he's ready to go... sleeve or no sleeve, suit or no suit...he'll bite whatever is presented.



Regards


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

HI Tiago

I've seen a few dogs tested for civil drive both PP and Police
K9 candidates. The most interesting one was a dog tested on a back tie by a guy with NO equipment. Dog alerted strongly.
Next test is a send to a guy in a suit. While the first guy what did the civil agitation is there with a clip board taking notes......
Anyone want to guess who the dog went after? 
Civil drive A+
Bite suit drive F


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I think he ignored the guy and just took the clip board, lololol :---)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I think he ignored the guy and just took the clip board, lololol :---)


Close but nope....he did take the clip board and spit it out and bit the guy in the arm....in the belly and in the ass. I remember when they were bringing the dog (malinois) out on leash for the send .
The dog was eyeballing the civil agitator all the way. One of the
guys I trained with looked at me and I said "this isn't going to work like they planned" Dog went maybe 20 feet towards the suited decoy and then made a big U turn......I think they classify it as a "learning experience" ?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Years ago one of our trainers learned not to stand too close when we were doing dual decoy work in a building. Dog would find and bite first decoy, then another would attack the handler. Trainer was in the line of fire. Ooops.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I understand where you're coming from. I guess its easier if you witnessed than read it on a forum.
> 
> That dog would bite you equipment on or off... He loves to bite and it does not matter what you wear when he's ready to go... sleeve or no sleeve, suit or no suit...he'll bite whatever is presented.
> 
> ...


Vikar kennels trains mainly for sport work but they do test for aggression and stable nerves. Even with their 9week old puppies they try and see if the dog aggresses on the helper for trying to take away its toy or tug. The sleeve the decoy was holding might have made the dog think 'stay in prey mode'. For sure some other dogs would have bitten him but again this dog might not have seen the decoy as a threat.
Put the dog on a stake out test and you may get a different reaction.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Thomas ... does your definition of civil drive NOT include a fear biter or dogs that are aggressive to humans and very handler sensitive ???

i am working with a doberman right who will probably be put down.... a mostly kenneled (for the last year) dog that "supposedly" .... "turned on the handler" and then dumped at a facility near me ... they have given up on the dog
- i did see a session where the idiots who had it gave it a CTJ moment ,,, probably did it a LOT, and all that has done is convince the dog it IS Jesus ......and it doesn't pee when someone walks into its space with no intention of being barked off 

1. btw, if anyone has learned any successful ways to deal with this kind of dog i'm all ears, but be specific....right now i'm pretty much ignoring it and feeding it
2. i don't see it as a fear biter, i see it as a dog who flat doesn't like people to handle it ... i consider it about as "civil" as it could be 

guess what i'm asking is, isn't civil drive usually applied to a dog that has already had some level of training and control ? 
- to get to that point, wouldn't some level of equipment have been used in that process, unless of course you skipped the puppy rags, tug play, sleeve slipping and any other training or equipment that the dog knows is not part of a human body ?
...few people train that way from the get go (for civil drive only)....there is usually a cross over point imo
- and that would be when defensive pressure (aka civil agitation) is added to the dog without visible equipment in the picture ?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rCL8EbdVuo&list=UUrFvuTEXB5etqyYEYrExddg&index=27&feature=plcp

This is the kind of reaction you won't want from a dog during civil agitation.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

But they do not work the dog that smart ither do they....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That's what most dogs do. The same pressure, threatening before the bite would probably tell another story.

I actually am never in favour of videos to show the nature of the dog. Too many technics nowdays and handlers trying to show how "good" or "bad" the dog is without the background history.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Gillian, 

What is your opinion on this dog based on what you observe?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tiago,

I am not repyling to you - am having problems (internet caused).

I am replying to a post that Joby Becker made about the dog being "on the bite when the pressure was applied".

I would never judge a dog from a video alone, so sorry to disappoint you.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Why wouldnt you judge the dog based on what you see on that video? 

Because you have to make excuses for the behavior observed? Or what? 
Legitimate questions...


Regards


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Why wouldnt you judge the dog based on what you see on that video?
> 
> Because you have to make excuses for the behavior observed? Or what?
> Legitimate questions...
> ...


I couldn't even view the video -don't be so aggressive!! What's wrong on here, we're supposed to be on the same page, yet some of us are out to have a row????


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I've seen dogs being tested for "civil drive" with a sleeve on one arm and the other arm with nothing on...
> 
> The dog would get offered the arm with nothing on and after showing it would take the arm without equipment, offered a bite on the sleeve. There was no snarling or anything involved... The dog would just take it, because it was the first thing available to grab. I dont believe in dogs that you must "make civil".
> 
> ...


sober currently...

really depends on the experience and the relationship...

I work a few dogs that are not that great that would most certainly bite ME for real, but maybe not you...because of their experiences with me..

on the flip side...I also work a few GOOD dogs that would NOT bite me, but would bite YOU...based on experiences and relationship...

also a few good dogs that would NOT bite you, but would bite me..

it all depends on the relationships and what is done with the dogs...

I have had dogs that would BITE anyone...equipment or not...take what was offered...some that even chose to avoid equipment period, because they wanted to eat you, and knew what equipment was...

it all has to be taken into context...based on the dogs experience and the relationship, if there is one...

If I work and train a dog that will avoid biting equipment, and go after the man in TRAINING...is he more real than a dog that will bite equipment and focus on it more, if it is present, but still will not hesitate to bite without equipment?

granted...in original context and video, of this thread...the dog was agitated and presented the opportunity to bite, and he did not...

my question still is was he properly prepared for this? if he in fact was not an out of the box killer???

we are looking at a video of a 1 yr old dog...

3-4 yrs old would be much better to judge, and even then I would need more that 3 seconds...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> Thomas ... does your definition of civil drive NOT include a fear biter or dogs that are aggressive to humans and very handler sensitive ???
> 
> i am working with a doberman right who will probably be put down.... a mostly kenneled (for the last year) dog that "supposedly" .... "turned on the handler" and then dumped at a facility near me ... they have given up on the dog
> - i did see a session where the idiots who had it gave it a CTJ moment ,,, probably did it a LOT, and all that has done is convince the dog it IS Jesus ......and it doesn't pee when someone walks into its space with no intention of being barked off QUOTE]
> ...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That's what most dogs do. The same pressure, threatening before the bite would probably tell another story.
> 
> I actually am never in favour of videos to show the nature of the dog. Too many technics nowdays and handlers trying to show how "good" or "bad" the dog is without the background history.


I agree with you gillian. Many dogs that appear strong on video are just results of good training but still the dog in the second video i posted was obviously scared of the decoy and he seemed like a grown dog.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

seems obvious to me too much prey , too little defence , and if you have a dog with too much prey you have to do all it takes to dig out a little agression so with good trainers you will see preydogs worked mostly on agression , and civil dogs mostly worked on prey .


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