# rewarding during training on decoy. (Jager thread of shoot)



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

didnt want to muck up that thread.

I think Hunter's dog is almost 7 years old, not sure if everyone is keeping that in mind when talking about making it about the ball, or tug or food.

How much work and how much success have people here had trying to introduce and use these lesser rewards on an older dog that loves to bite more than anything else? just curious..

I think there is a point when you may have missed that window personally..unfortunately


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think there is a point when you may have missed that window personally..unfortunately


Yeah about 6.5 years ago for Jaeger. If you don't have a ball crazy dog that will recall off a decoy by 5-6 months of age for a ball, good luck trying to get it later in life. The only thing I'd do to help Jaeger is 2 decoys or reward bites for quick outs. If not there will be a lot of vitamin 'E' and yankin' and crankin' going on. But somehow I think that Hunter went that route before and it got him up shit creek without a paddle with this dog. So it would be time to do the reward bite thing just use some basic dog psychology on him. The answer to the problem is in the question .. 'what does the dog really want?' Which is another bite.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah about 6.5 years ago for Jaeger. If you don't have a ball crazy dog that will recall off a decoy by 5-6 months of age for a ball, good luck trying to get it later in life. The only thing I'd do to help Jaeger is 2 decoys or reward bites for quick outs. If not there will be a lot of vitamin 'E' and yankin' and crankin' going on. But somehow I think that Hunter went that route before and it got him up shit creek without a paddle with this dog. So it would be time to do the reward bite thing just use some basic dog psychology on him. The answer to the problem is in the question .. 'what does the dog really want?' Which is another bite.


thanks for sharing Geoff...Happy New Year


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah about 6.5 years ago for Jaeger. If you don't have a ball crazy dog that will recall off a decoy by 5-6 months of age for a ball, good luck trying to get it later in life. The only thing I'd do to help Jaeger is 2 decoys or reward bites for quick outs. If not there will be a lot of vitamin 'E' and yankin' and crankin' going on. But somehow I think that Hunter went that route before and it got him up shit creek without a paddle with this dog. So it would be time to do the reward bite thing just use some basic dog psychology on him. The answer to the problem is in the question .. 'what does the dog really want?' Which is another bite.


Good question, I guess that would depend on the dog and how it was trained and it's ball drive. In our club we use marker training with a "ball, tug or kong type thing early on. The problem I have seen with to many bites on the Decoy for reward is the dog can key in to much on the Decoy and you lose your tight ob and attention. Or the dog gets dirty and gets DQed.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Happy new year all. Where is the original thread? It sounds interesting.

We bought a 2 year old Mali that we tried rewarding with a ball when he was barking at the helper to see where we stood with him. He spat it out, barked a little more seriously for 10 seconds then filled the helper in.

It became obvious he wasn't interested in the ball if there was the potential for a bite. We went back to tuggers and bite pillows, recalling out for bites and built it up from there. We introduced the ball back in and he became happy to come off tuggers etc for a ball. He now comes off a bite on the helper for a ball but it is varied between ball rewards, bites on tuggers, recalling out and sending him back in or just givingh him a bite at the helper. A year later he is looking pretty reliable (touch wood). He was only 2 though and clearly had less of a biting history.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

kerry engels said:


> In our club we use marker training with a "ball, tug or kong type thing early on. The problem I have seen with to many bites on the Decoy for reward is the dog can key in to much on the Decoy and you lose your tight ob and attention. Or the dog gets dirty and gets DQed.


Yes the dog can be decoy happy but it works to use the decoy in OB for a bite, especially if you use marker training. Then the dog knows what gets him the bite which is the OB, so in reality you are just tricking the dog into compliance. In IPO you can do the OB for bite right to the end and if the training is clear to the dog and knows what you want to get the bite, you are not going to get DQed. 

We do the same thing as you in our club by loading 'the clicker' so to speak for the toy or just for telling the dog he/she is right. So whatever method we use (click/voice) to 'mark' the behaviour the dog has that pavlovian response. But there is a time frame where that has to be done with literally thousands of reps to have affect on the dog in the future, starting with food then toys. The older the dog gets the harder it is to have success IMO with this though. As once the dog gets some bad habits and then matures .. good luck having an easy time with it.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I did it with a 4.5yr old dog last summer, never too late. My problem was control and the root cause was that my value was not high enough to the dog.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I did it with a 4.5yr old dog last summer, never too late. My problem was control and the root cause was that my value (handler value) was not high enough for the dog. Random rewards from me changed the whole picture, a picture that extreme high levels of corrections did nothing to change!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

thanks Faisal,Guy, and Kerry for your input


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

There can be a lot of tempting potential "rewards" on a PSA trial field.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah about 6.5 years ago for Jaeger. If you don't have a ball crazy dog that will recall off a decoy by 5-6 months of age for a ball, good luck trying to get it later in life. The only thing I'd do to help Jaeger is 2 decoys or reward bites for quick outs. If not there will be a lot of vitamin 'E' and yankin' and crankin' going on. But somehow I think that Hunter went that route before and it got him up shit creek without a paddle with this dog. So it would be time to do the reward bite thing just use some basic dog psychology on him. The answer to the problem is in the question .. 'what does the dog really want?' Which is another bite.


Thats reasonably accurate lol. He's ball crazy, but man crazier. He hunts for eye contact and threat from men so he can posture back. I actually use low E preferably, then a pinch, and lastly my voice. He is most affected by my voice. Even very high E doesn't hurt his morale. I started training him at about 4 years of age, he'll be 7 in a few months. He is a dog that *must* have crystal clear communication of what is correct/how to win, and what is incorrect/what doesn't work. When my handling was not clear he was redirecting a bunch of venom onto the helper... crappy outs, crappy grip, etc. Even then though, he was always clear headed in that an unfair correction from me would cause him to be dirty with the helper, but never come up the lead. When my handling was clear training moved forward far faster. My bitch was able to handle my shitty handling better early on better than him. 

His outs on a sleeve are pretty nice. We've only started to do a few outs on a suit. He gets much more "in" to suitwork and I think thats why his out is shitty right now on a suit... so far suit work has been all "battle royale" and not been really any control. 

Interestingly the hardest thing to do with him is muzzle work. After every strike he will drop and try his damnest to remove the muzzle... despite months of wearing it in OB and he excitedly shoves his face in it himself... the actual bite is just too "valuable" to him, or my muzzlework helper didn't give a convincing enough performance that his strike was also an effective weapon... probably a bit of both.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I've actually started having helpers on the field milling about during OB and during long downs. Also having people he knows offering food. No issues there.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> didnt want to muck up that thread.
> 
> I think Hunter's dog is almost 7 years old, not sure if everyone is keeping that in mind when talking about making it about the ball, or tug or food.
> 
> ...


Its definitely one of those "slow progress" things with him. My female who is younger, its gone better with.

Jäger will come and play tug/ball for a few seconds but its clearly the "how long do I have to do this before I go bite that guy" type of thing still.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

kerry engels said:


> There can be a lot of tempting potential "rewards" on a PSA trial field


Exactly! You'd be crazy not to use that "potential reward" to your advantage in training. Whatever the reward, the dog has to understand that everything comes from you. When it comes to bite reward and "it" comes from 'you' or ('me' for that matter) our OB will be better in protection than in OB that's the beauty of it. 



Faisal Khan said:


> I did it with a 4.5yr old dog last summer, never too late. My problem was control and the root cause was that my value (handler value) was not high enough for the dog. Random rewards from me changed the whole picture, a picture that extreme high levels of corrections did nothing to change! Today 06:13 PM


I did it with a 2.5yr old too as I was up the same creek as you with no paddle I thought. I got a lot of it back, but it would've been a lot easier if I applied those same types of techniques in the beginning. (still not perfect and a work in progress as per this video) http://youtu.be/gDP5eFcPMdc You can see he is quite the handful and a bit slow to out at times plus I count a few dirty bites and punches at Tom, all of that cost me points even the creep at the beginning. It is what it is, at least I know even with his fruity bark he is going down the field loaded for bear. He is a dog whose bite is worse than his bark! LOL!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> He is a dog whose bite is worse than his bark! LOL!


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> Thats reasonably accurate lol. He's ball crazy, but man crazier. He hunts for eye contact and threat from men so he can posture back. I actually use low E preferably, then a pinch, and lastly my voice. He is most affected by my voice. Even very high E doesn't hurt his morale. I started training him at about 4 years of age, he'll be 7 in a few months. He is a dog that *must* have crystal clear communication of what is correct/how to win, and what is incorrect/what doesn't work. When my handling was not clear he was redirecting a bunch of venom onto the helper... crappy outs, crappy grip, etc. Even then though, he was always clear headed in that an unfair correction from me would cause him to be dirty with the helper, but never come up the lead. When my handling was clear training moved forward far faster. My bitch was able to handle my shitty handling better early on better than him.
> 
> His outs on a sleeve are pretty nice. We've only started to do a few outs on a suit. He gets much more "in" to suitwork and I think thats why his out is shitty right now on a suit... so far suit work has been all "battle royale" and not been really any control.
> 
> Interestingly the hardest thing to do with him is muzzle work. After every strike he will drop and try his damnest to remove the muzzle... despite months of wearing it in OB and he excitedly shoves his face in it himself... the actual bite is just too "valuable" to him, or my muzzlework helper didn't give a convincing enough performance that his strike was also an effective weapon... probably a bit of both.


Hello Hunter
i really like to watch your dogs on youtube.if you sit down and read this post again and really think about that, than there is one clear thing!!!!your dog was never proper trained.
His out on the sleeve is nice on the suit it is bad, does not fit!!out is out,does not matter if leg, sleeve, back or chest. but that is where it only ends because all your control work,means heel,position and so on are never straight in line,both of your dogs are steeling there a inch and again a inch,you try to fix it with a lot of handler help but not with training. in dog training there is only black and white and it does not matter how old.reward and correction is only black and white. there is nothing like half good out or close to a good heel work.
i have seen a movie from your black female and there it was the same.
maybe it is time to train with people together with a concept.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Hello Hunter
> i really like to watch your dogs on youtube.if you sit down and read this post again and really think about that, than there is one clear thing!!!!your dog was never proper trained.
> His out on the sleeve is nice on the suit it is bad, does not fit!!out is out,does not matter if leg, sleeve, back or chest. but that is where it only ends because all your control work,means heel,position and so on are never straight in line,both of your dogs are steeling there a inch and again a inch,you try to fix it with a lot of handler help but not with training. in dog training there is only black and white and it does not matter how old.reward and correction is only black and white. there is nothing like half good out or close to a good heel work.
> i have seen a movie from your black female and there it was the same.
> maybe it is time to train with people together with a concept.


Aw I thought my female looked pretty nice in her work


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Hello Hunter
> i really like to watch your dogs on youtube.if you sit down and read this post again and really think about that, than there is one clear thing!!!!your dog was never proper trained.
> His out on the sleeve is nice on the suit it is bad, does not fit!!out is out,does not matter if leg, sleeve, back or chest. but that is where it only ends because all your control work,means heel,position and so on are never straight in line,both of your dogs are steeling there a inch and again a inch,you try to fix it with a lot of handler help but not with training. in dog training there is only black and white and it does not matter how old.reward and correction is only black and white. there is nothing like half good out or close to a good heel work.
> i have seen a movie from your black female and there it was the same.
> maybe it is time to train with people together with a concept.


Spoken like a true trainer!


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> I've actually started having helpers on the field milling about during OB and during long downs. Also having people he knows offering food. No issues there.


Just remember, if you stick with PSA once you get into the two's and three's the decoy pressure in OB gets much higher. They are tempting the dog to bite in OB. If he bites in OB you are done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGMQ--jWhcU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkSZ-de2hrc


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

kerry engels said:


> Just remember, if you stick with PSA once you get into the two's and three's the decoy pressure in OB gets much higher. They are tempting the dog to bite in OB. If he bites in OB you are done.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGMQ--jWhcU
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkSZ-de2hrc


Yeah I know, but gotta start somewhere. The presence of suited decoys he doesn't get to bite is a new concept lol.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> Aw I thought my female looked pretty nice in her work


she looks pretty nice, but only with help. you must work more on straight handling and your dogs must learn to fallow straight handling. the sport have change a lot and the training have get way better, why waste time to do stupid things.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> she looks pretty nice, but only with help. you must work more on straight handling and your dogs must learn to fallow straight handling. the sport have change a lot and the training have get way better, why waste time to do stupid things.


Would you mind critiquing the video of her and tell me exactly where I am going wrong, and what I should do differently?


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> Would you mind critiquing the video of her and tell me exactly where I am going wrong, and what I should do differently?


sure let me know the video, or do you mean the one before the regional trial


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

My girlfriends GSD wuld not releas without breaking her loose 5 month ago. She is 6 years old. Now She releases in combat 50 meters away from the handler.
We just started to split the traning up.
First I hold her in the colar 10 meters away from My girlfriend. The She ampt her up with a tug ore a bal when I puld her back. Then comand/wissel and I ler her go. After that aloooot of play and fun with the tug.
After we done this a bit. We increas the distans. And repet untill this comand / wissel = a shitload of fun.
Then I put on the suit. We let her bite me in the leg, easyer than having her standing on her back feet bitnig the uperbody.
I freez and the handler is just a meter or less away showing the toy. When the dog is a bit more calm and loking at the handler/toy the comand / wissel is used and bam a shitload of fun with the handler. Then slowly make it harder and go futher away. No corection no breaking the dog of. Its only fun fun fun to go to the handler. Later on when the dog is realy clear what the comand is then you can corect if the dog wuld not releas, but it almost always does. Now She releases 99 Times' of 100 and if she does not its becaus we made it to ****ing hard


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

You realy nead to read the dog. Do not use the comand if you are not shore it Will release. And DO NOT! Use the comand twise ore 3-4-5 times. IF it does not releas. Go up and corect the dog.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> sure let me know the video, or do you mean the one before the regional trial


This is the most recent on of her http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtKGQEh14Gg

Mainly using E here so its hard to see when I'm correcting. Generally I keep my hand on the remote most of them time, in other words, just because my hand is on the remote it doesn't mean I'm stim'ing.


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