# pinch collars/fursavers and protection dogs/IPO



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Just curious if there is anyone here who trains in protection work or IPO has successfuly trained thier dog without the use of prong/pinch collars or fur savers?

The reason I ask is my GF, (who I live with) works for a local humane society and is very much an animal advocate and has very stong opinions against what she percieves to be training that is harsh or cruel. (yes I have tried reasoning with her useing the same logic and arguments used by proponents of those methods, which usually just lands me a night in the proverbial doghouse)

I personally dont have any issues with pinch collars, fur savers and other similar complusion training aids but was curious if there was any way to still effectivly train a high drive dog without the use of these to avoid the tension i am sure to get at home due to my choice to use one on my dog. "happy wife...happy life" and all that you know...


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

I don't think there is a substitute for proper corrections and I've never trained Schutz but I don't think a verbal correction no matter how much a dog understands it would be sufficient enough compared to a physical one.

What about a remote collar?


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

It would be easier to get a new girlfriend than to successfully train a dog without a collar.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Burger's comment is sound. If you cant explain the reality of dog training to her, and have her understand, think of how awkward God, politics, child discipline and where to go on vacation will be. 

This subject (prong collars used in a good training program) will give you insight into future disagreements based on the outcome.


John Michaels said:


> I personally dont have any issues with pinch collars, fur savers and other similar complusion training aids but was curious if there was any way to still effectivly train a high drive dog without the use of these to avoid the tension i am sure to get at home due to my choice to use one on my dog. "happy wife...happy life" and all that you know...


----------



## Robbie Waldrop (Aug 31, 2013)

After training my second police k9, I can say that it is possible to train a high drive dog without a prong or fur saver. Got this pup at 14 mos old and I trained him using a flat collar the whole time. I can say that a prong collar would have sped things up for me but I was willing to wait.

I'm not claiming to be in the ALL POSITIVE camp but I can say that training in drive and doing it on a flat collar has improved the relationship with my dog especially in protection. I have trained this one without prong, e collar, or choke.....just a nylon flat since he was 14 mos.

This approach takes a lot of patience. If your tryying to change the girlfriends mind then have her walk a prey driven mal through a park full of squirrels on a flat collar and then let her do the same with a prong collar. That might work.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> It would be easier to get a new girlfriend than to successfully train a dog without a collar.


 


+1 Run now!!


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Robbie Waldrop said:


> After training my second police k9, I can say that it is possible to train a high drive dog without a prong or fur saver. Got this pup at 14 mos old and I trained him using a flat collar the whole time. I can say that a prong collar would have sped things up for me but I was willing to wait.
> 
> I'm not claiming to be in the ALL POSITIVE camp but I can say that training in drive and doing it on a flat collar has improved the relationship with my dog especially in protection. I have trained this one without prong, e collar, or choke.....just a nylon flat since he was 14 mos.
> 
> This approach takes a lot of patience. If your tryying to change the girlfriends mind then have her walk a prey driven mal through a park full of squirrels on a flat collar and then let her do the same with a prong collar. That might work.


 
Show me the video of you dog doing a call off.. not one video of 20 tries doing the same thing over and over. i mean just rolling up to an active person send the dog and call of as the dog is at full speed. Show me the video.
I dont know the rules and requerments for your state but just cause your dog i "certified" dont mean it listens


----------



## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Chris McDonald said:


> +1 Run now!!


Agreed.

The dog will love you for who you are... And I'll bet the dog doesn't tell you how to train the girlfriend 😉

Keep the dog... Dump the girlfriend.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> It would be easier to get a new girlfriend than to successfully train a dog without a collar.


:lol:


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Steve Burger's comment is sound. If you cant explain the reality of dog training to her, and have her understand, think of how awkward God, politics, child discipline and where to go on vacation will be.
> 
> This subject (prong collars used in a good training program) will give you insight into future disagreements based on the outcome.


This is sound advice. You may have come here hoping to hear something else but well, everything happens for a reason...


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Chris McDonald said:


> Show me the video of you dog doing a call off.. not one video of 20 tries doing the same thing over and over. i mean just rolling up to an active person send the dog and call of as the dog is at full speed. Show me the video.
> I dont know the rules and requerments for your state but just cause your dog i "certified" dont mean it listens


I understand this post is in good mind but start a new post if you want to call someone out please. Let's keep this on topic...for fairness to the op if anything..

To the op, I was in your shoes - I sent my dog away for in board training and when it got down to the particulars of explain what the trainer was going to do and how he was going to correct him and such. It took showing her reading materials and teaching her the proper way and proving to her that it does NOT harm the dog when used PROPERLY and is nothing more then a tool in the toolbox. I personally like a prong over a fur saver because if someone doesn't put the fur saver on properly it will lock up and not unlock.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Rob Maltese said:


> I understand this post is in good mind but start a new post if you want to call someone out please. Let's keep this on topic...for fairness to the op if anything..
> 
> To the op, I was in your shoes - I sent my dog away for in board training and when it got down to the particulars of explain what the trainer was going to do and how he was going to correct him and such. It took showing her reading materials and teaching her the proper way and proving to her that it does NOT harm the dog when used PROPERLY and is nothing more then a tool in the toolbox. I personally like a prong over a fur saver because if someone doesn't put the fur saver on properly it will lock up and not unlock.


 
Great feedback guys, thx...LMAO at some of the comments..but will chose not to comment on some 

Rob, thanks for this sugestion, I will give this a go.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

John Michaels said:


> Great feedback guys, thx...LMAO at some of the comments..but will chose not to comment on some
> 
> Rob, thanks for this sugestion, I will give this a go.


Leerburg has many information videos and such on proper use of the prong collar including fitment guides.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Show me the video of you dog doing a call off.. not one video of 20 tries doing the same thing over and over. i mean just rolling up to an active person send the dog and call of as the dog is at full speed. Show me the video.
> I dont know the rules and requerments for your state but just cause your dog i "certified" dont mean it listens


+1


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

John Michaels said:


> ...
> The reason I ask is my GF, (who I live with) works for a local humane society and is very much an animal advocate and has very stong opinions against what she percieves to be training that is harsh or cruel. (yes I have tried reasoning with her useing the same logic and arguments used by proponents of those methods, which usually just lands me a night in the proverbial doghouse)
> ...





Rob Maltese said:


> It took showing her reading materials and teaching her the proper way and proving to her that it does NOT harm the dog when used PROPERLY and is nothing more then a tool in the toolbox. I personally like a prong over a fur saver because if someone doesn't put the fur saver on properly it will lock up and not unlock.




I agree with Rob...to a point. I also have to say there is the question of respect. It's one thing to have separate opinions, but it's another to nag/boss around someone who has a different approach. It's your dog not hers, she's crossing a line. If you want to train the dog with no corrections it's certainly your prerogative, but don't let her brow beat you into it.


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dump the girlfriend and as you say goodbye, have the dog in a perfect heel position, proudly exhibiting its prong and e collar.


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Use the prong on the girlfriend. She will see that it's not so bad. Hopefully she likes it. If not then get a new one.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

jamie lind said:


> Use the prong on the girlfriend. She will see that it's not so bad. Hopefully she likes it. If not then get a new one.


Sounds like a weird sex act... interesting theory.


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Rob Maltese said:


> Sounds like a weird sex act... interesting theory.


I used to see sexual innuendo in everything people said. It was a long and hard process, but I got over it.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If you want to see which one is worth keeping then lock the dog and the girl friend in your car trunk.

Take them for a ride for an hour or so. 

When you get home, open the trunk and see which one is happiest to see you. 

Problem solved! :twisted: :wink:


----------



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

I never used a pinch collar or ecollar in training. Only a ipo chain that the dog has to wear on trial. Never has it been on choke. But my dog understands a firm no, and a light tap on the head that he is wrong and has to try something else. It is possible to train without these instruments but with no corrections. Mmmm difficult. Social pressure you can use also. If he is sensible about it. But why corrections if you can set up your dog to 90 procent succes ratio. If you have to much to correct, go back youre made a mistake.


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

angelo sintubin said:


> I never used a pinch collar or ecollar in training. Only a ipo chain that the dog has to wear on trial. Never has it been on choke. But my dog understands a firm no, and a light tap on the head that he is wrong and has to try something else. It is possible to train without these instruments but with no corrections. Mmmm difficult. Social pressure you can use also. If he is sensible about it. But why corrections if you can set up your dog to 90 procent succes ratio. If you have to much to correct, go back youre made a mistake.


This approach might work if you have a super sensitive, soft dog. You then just have to have the right helper, at your home field and bring in judge BS to judge. This would for sure have at least a 90% chance of success.


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Steve Burger's comment is sound. If you cant explain the reality of dog training to her, and have her understand, think of how awkward God, politics, child discipline and where to go on vacation will be.
> 
> This subject (prong collars used in a good training program) will give you insight into future disagreements based on the outcome.


 I was at least half joking. Then again I sometimes finding myself sayiing things, and feel like I am beginning to sound like I have hung around Lance Collins too much.


----------



## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

I didn't know you could correct a dog with a fur saver.??!! The only correction that might work with my dog/ fur saver would be if you beat him on the head with it and then he would either like it or bite you.


----------



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Steve Burger said:


> This approach might work if you have a super sensitive, soft dog. You then just have to have the right helper, at your home field and bring in judge BS to judge. This would for sure have at least a 90% chance of success.


Sorry, I have a ipo 3 dog. Played 4 reality trials with a 1, 1, 2, 4 places out of 30 to 60 dogs most of them pp or security dogs but my soft sensitive dog kicked there ass. And he doesnt now al the exercises that lead to min point loss.


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Angelo...not to take anything away from what you achieved but did you not say yourself that he is sensitive?


----------



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Haz Othman said:


> Angelo...not to take anything away from what you achieved but did you not say yourself that he is sensitive?


sensitive but not soft. A huge differents.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

angelo sintubin said:


> sensitive but not soft. A huge differents.


There must be a fine line between your definition of soft and sensitive when speaking dogs.


----------



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Rob Maltese said:


> There must be a fine line between your definition of soft and sensitive when speaking dogs.


 sensitive for my is. With a minium of corrections he understands it. And stops the wrong behavior. But not lose drive or willingness' to work a soft dog shuts down when corrected.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

some great feedback you guys, thank you for takeing the time to post responses, some of them literally made me chuckle. After a huge argument; I tried a pinch on my pup with a trainer...and all i can say is WOW!....


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

angelo sintubin said:


> sensitive for my is. With a minium of corrections he understands it. And stops the wrong behavior. But not lose drive or willingness' to work a soft dog shuts down when corrected.


 
Angelo I get what you are talking about. I have two dogs here both from puppies. 

Dog 1 was hard to teach, she did not care to learn. Everything we had to do 1000 times and still sometimes she was not correct. Dog 1 was never easy in the house and outside was always difficult too. Dog 1 is the kind of dog that needs to be shown the stick very often to keep her correct in the work and just in regular life. Always likes to cheat and please herself. Dog 1 I had on the prong from 5 months and E Collar from 7-8 months. I think her work looks good now but with her I need to use alot of punishment and motivation to keep her work correct and stop her from cheating.


Dog 2 is still young but is already very different. He learns very fast. Always motivated and engaged and desires to please and earn the reward. He only needs to see something a few times to be correct. Teaching him is very easy. He is also easy in the house and in regular life. He only needs to be shown something a few times to understand. With him most corrections are verbal and he requires little physical compulsion to behave. I have not yet used prong or E Collar on him. I will likely use E Collar and prong later to make the training easier for him and I. I have corrected him a few times and he recovers no problem so far.

I have the feeling Dog 2 might be stronger in the end then Dog 1 but only time will tell. One for sure needs the prong. The other probably not.


----------



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

great. It's was never my intent to start a discussion about not to use aversive tools. Sometimes its necessary. I just want to point out that they're are other ways to teach a dog. I have respect for people who use different way of training and I always listen to them. If you show respect you will get it back. And then you can learn allot from each other. If I go visiting a other club I'm always interested in the way they train. And then when I train my dog they show interest to. That is the way that I learned allot the last 2 years. I try to keep open minded. And I liked to discuss. On a forum it's difficult to express yourself the way you mean. And also the language.


----------



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Haz Othman said:


> Angelo...not to take anything away from what you achieved but did you not say yourself that he is sensitive?


 maybe I say it because it's a easy excuses why I don't use it without starting a discussion. When lenko was 8 months old. The more experienced trained told me to use a prong, I didn't want to use it. So I said he was sensitive around corrections. So they said. Ok wait a little. Without discussion.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

John Michaels said:


> some great feedback you guys, thank you for takeing the time to post responses, some of them literally made me chuckle. After a huge argument; I tried a pinch on my pup with a trainer...and all i can say is WOW!....


well??? WOW what?


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

angelo sintubin said:


> maybe I say it because it's a easy excuses why I don't use it without starting a discussion. When lenko was 8 months old. The more experienced trained told me to use a prong, I didn't want to use it. So I said he was sensitive around corrections. So they said. Ok wait a little. Without discussion.


Gotcha .


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> well??? WOW what?


A sharpened pinch collar has never harmed a dog.


----------



## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Gillian Schuler said:


> A sharpened pinch collar has never harmed a dog.


Sharpened? Do you really find it necessary to SHARPEN a prong collar?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Herzog said:


> Sharpened? Do you really find it necessary to SHARPEN a prong collar?


sometimes a sharpened pinch is a good tool.

whether someone feels it is NECESSARY or not, who can say.

some people think it is not necessary to use a leash, a pinch collar period, an ecollar, a flat collar, a training table or box..etc etc...

all can be used humanely and effectively, including a sharpened pinch collar.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mark Herzog said:


> Sharpened? Do you really find it necessary to SHARPEN a prong collar?


It is not that one could find it necessary but that a slight tug on the sharpened prong causes a dog to quickly adjust.

The blunt prongs have been known to prouduce more damage to the dog's throat.

Imagine:

the sharp prong, although not entering the skin of the dog, causes the dog to be quicdkly beware of the handler.

The blunt prong Needs far more pressure and does not achieve what is required, i.e. Attention.

The sharpened prong collar is intended to give the dog a "reminder" that he has to obey his handler.


----------



## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> whether someone feels it is NECESSARY or not, *who can say*.


Joby, he made the statement so HE CAN SAY whether HE feels it necessary. He actually went further... He said that a sharpened pinch collar "has never harmed a dog" and I would question the accuracy of that... But that's another issue. I've seen equipment misused, as I'm sure you have as well.

I was simply asking if he really felt that it was necessary to sharpen the prongs of the collar because I have heard that people did that but have never met anyone who did. I don't tell others how to train... Anymore than allow others to dictate what I do... But I'm always interested to try and understand what others are doing and thinking.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

First off: HE is a SHE and she was advised to use a sharpened pinch collar as it is more effective than the blunt prongs in that only a slight tug is necessary to make the dog attentive.

The very blunt prongs on a pinch collar render it in my opinion to be no more useful than a chain collar as the only collar allowed in IPO. Here, as I percieve, yanking is necessary to make the dog aware of the correction. I checked out my dog's neck after first using it and found no scratches even though this was a dog without "undercoat", i.e. a Berger de Brie.

In Switzerland all pinch collars have been banned but beforehand all the trainers and handlers I came into contact with had sharpened collars.

I learned that the blunt prongs needed far more force and were likely to injure the dogs necks inwardly.

Any collar can be used to harm a dog if one so wishes.


----------



## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Gillian Schuler said:


> First off: HE is a SHE.


Point taken... No offence was intended.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mark Herzog said:


> Point taken... No offence was intended.


None meant


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Wow. How quickly people can take a thread off topic...

To the original poster - any updates?


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

*Issues:* pulling on leash, highly distractible and reactive to stimulus, ie. cars (epecially when walking on the sidewalk with the flow of traffic so that the cars come up from behind), bikes, skateboards, lunges at passersby’s and other dogs overall poor leash manners.

(_been using a combination of a fur saver and a martingale - results are identical_)

*Day 1 with pinch/prong:*

after the initial shock of having a correction applied and proper introduction under a trainer's supervision;

introduced the "leave it' verbal marker when correction is applied; observing body language (ie. perked ears and focus for longer than a few seconds) and applying correction as soon as the dog shows signs of this. Frequent correction is required but the dog quickly unfocused on the target and continues walking. *ears are pressed to his head, head held low, tail is normal, looks at me every few steps.

Correction is also given when dog moves past my front toe. Leash is loose the entire time.

After only an hour he is like new dog and continues to make progress.

*Day 3*

Dog needs very little correction (if any) and walks nicely on the left side and paces himself with my gait, and will re-adjust as soon as he realizes that he is getting a bit ahead of me.

a small swift correction is still given when his ears perk up to something for too long (correction is very minimal) given with the leave it command.

No discernable behavioral issues, other than he sometimes gets surprised by a loud car fast approaching from behind at which he will run ahead of me with his ears back and tail down. I feel very confident having him around any stimulus.

*Day 4*

After 3 days of at least one hour leash walking, day 4 GF takes the dog for a walk (no pinch) brings him to me on my lunch break and he has reverted back to the original behaviors. 

That evening after work, I throw on the pinch and go back to training from day one, feedback is the same as with day one.

*Day 9* 

With at least 1 hour per day of walking on busy main roads, and exposure to various stimulus, there are no incidents. The only thing that stands out is that when I took him to the park where we normally play, at the end of the walk, after being very composed and calm through the whole walk he all of a sudden takes of and starts running around me at full speed as if he had a the case of the “zoomies”. Getting his attention back to the being calm for the walk home takes a few minutes with collar corrections applied when he tries to jump up or bite.

Basically with the GF issue, we have come to a compromise that we each walk with him in our own way; she will not use any compulsion methods on him. I am OK with this so long as the dog is able to differentiate that with me he has to be on point and with her she can do what she wants. I am actually hoping that he will display a real contrast in behavior when she is with me as opposed to with her so I can show her of something I am now solidly convinced of. One thing I am a bit worried about is the dog either associating walking with receiveing unpleasant stimulus (ie. getting 'corrected") or that he only has to "behave" when the pich collar is put on him (he only wears it when I'm training with him). I will continue to work with him, and will post any pertinent updates as they arise. Thanks all for your feedback.




Rob Maltese said:


> Wow. How quickly people can take a thread off topic...
> 
> To the original poster - any updates?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You have used a prong collar in a fashion that has made your dog scared of stimulus as by your tale in day 3. Hears a noise and anticipates correction by displaying the look you are asking him to display by your training.

You will probably have a dog that is obedient, but scared. Not really what I want in a dog, but to each his own. 

A much better approach is to teach the dog what you want in a non-stimulating environment, get it rock solid there, then introduce stimulus. You can use a lot less correction. Also teach the dog what you want, so he can "win" and be happy. keep his ears up while looking at you, or things around him. You painted a pretty grim picture

probably re-enforced what your gf didn't like about pinch collars as a side effect.





John Michaels said:


> *Issues:* pulling on leash, highly distractible and reactive to stimulus, ie. cars (epecially when walking on the sidewalk with the flow of traffic so that the cars come up from behind), bikes, skateboards, lunges at passersby’s and other dogs overall poor leash manners.
> 
> (_been using a combination of a fur saver and a martingale - results are identical_)
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Also the inconsistency between you not allowing a behavior and your girlfriend allowing a behavior is causing the dog to go "what the ****, she allows me to do this but you don't!?" 

No matter the training method you choose, consistency is key. If you allow one thing, your girlfriend doesn't then you're creating the dog to be confused and he/she will have a hard time understanding what is expected of him/her.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> A much better approach is to teach the dog what you want in a non-stimulating environment, get it rock solid there, then introduce stimulus. You can use a lot less correction.


Good advice.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Dave Colborn said:


> A much better approach is to teach the dog what you want in a non-stimulating environment, get it rock solid there, then introduce stimulus.


Does it make a diffrence that for the first 5 months of his life upto now, no aversive methods were used? I started out working with him far from the stimulus getting closer to the stimulus over time, when he would lunge at a stimulus during a walk i would redirect him by calling him to me on a leash and rewared him with a treat when he came to me.

I also had been working on polite leash wlaking by giving him treats for staying where he should be which did get him to perform well as long as treats were on hand.

definatly could keep going with these methods and think eventually i would end up with the same result without the use of any aversive methods, i guess I am rushing it?

As a rule of thumb I just tried to keep in mind that; 

1) 1st teach the desired behavior through positive reinforcement (with treats praise, play etc.)
2) once the dog knows what he should do introduce the correction (whether useing Nagative markers aka. NRM, withholding the treat/toy, compulsion, etc.) when he does not perfrom the desired behavior.

I guess it was my understanding that once the dog knows what the desired behavior is, it is OK to not give a treat for not doing the behavior and if needed provide a correction. As I said before i am a total newbie, so assume i know nothing, i wont be offended, and i would love to learn from your guy's extesve knowledge.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

John. Video would be best.


John Michaels said:


> Does it make a diffrence that for the first 5 months of his life upto now, no aversive methods were used? I started out working with him far from the stimulus getting closer to the stimulus over time, when he would lunge at a stimulus during a walk i would redirect him by calling him to me on a leash and rewared him with a treat when he came to me.
> 
> I also had been working on polite leash wlaking by giving him treats for staying where he should be which did get him to perform well as long as treats were on hand.
> 
> ...


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

How do you guys do this? Youtube upload?



Dave Colborn said:


> John. Video would be best.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

John Michaels said:


> How do you guys do this? Youtube upload?


Yes. That's usually best.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Took this video today, as sugested to show what i was reffering to in my previous posts. Please excuse anything stupid i do in this video as i am very much a noob to dog training but would love to hear you're guy's input/advice/criticisms. Thank you in advance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOXXyrlwQsI&list=UU0mbrmrQwHKH20DcufiVtig



Dave Colborn said:


> John. Video would be best.


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I thought you were training for IPO?? If you are doing all that shit for pet dog heeling and other pet obedience stuff.., you will never have a decent working dog, with good expression and focus.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Steve, like I keep saying I don't know shit about anything about dog training I'll be the first to admit that, but I am very eager to learn, and welcome any criticism so long as it is constructive. ie. call me on stupid shit it am doing but give me a reason and offer me an alternative and I would be very thankful.

From you comment I guess i admit I am a bit confused, is it not possible to have a well mannered dog that I can trust in any situation and around anyone but also have him be a proficient IPO dog?

At the point and I imagine even down the line schutzhund events and meets will consist of only 25 percent of the time I spend with my dog; all the other times he will be required to be around children, members of my family, friends and strangers and doing a variety of activities which include stimulus I will have little to no control over.
I want a dog I can trust and feel safe takeing wherever I go. I want a dog that is non aggressive but is capable of protection work when needed but is not overly aggressive.
Until a few months ago I had never heard if schutzhund/IPO but was attracted to it as it seemed the perfect venue to teach me how to train the type of dog I was wanting. I was particularly interested in the obedience and protection phases of the training.
I know what I want to do but I guess I'm am unclear what the best way to achieve that would be. If I was to sum up my goal in a simplified manner I guess I would say I want a personal protection dog that is well balanced, trustworthy and can be my companion wherever I go, and when called upon to do so have the tenacity and aggression needed for protection work.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the video was ok but imo the editing sucked 
should have started the vid MUCH sooner when the two people were approaching in the opposite direction (approx 47sec timeframe)
- then it would have been clearer how late u were to react to his reaction 

- from what i could see, you were at least 3 seconds late, but probably more. u prob need to be "on top" of this dog at least THREE meters BEFORE the distraction is in your close proximity

have the camera holder shoot PRIOR to approaching a known distraction and forget taking video of you walking alone without distractions present

- another option when a distraction is coming from the opposite direction....
rather than try and let them pass while keeping the dog in control, try and do a 180 and actually follow along with them for a short distance.
- you can turn AWAY from the people and still have the dog on your left with some separation. when the dog starts to calm and stops fixating IMMEDIATELY praise the dog ... them move on to another "training aid"

don't know if this makes sense to you, but it's a technique i use a lot
- my goal is not to try and "dodge a distraction without an incident" ... it is to get the dog comfortable walking i very close proximity to other people and still be NONreactive


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

also, when i see people approaching in the opposite direction i ALWAYS try and move to the left and make the people pass on my right, while keeping the dog on my left hip

- with a little practice, this is very easy to do 
- with a reactive dog, i would NEVER allow them to pass so that my dog is between them and me (hard to control that way)
- people "get it" and they will move when you make it clear to them that you want them to pass on your right side

actually this is pretty easy stuff ...if you have a plan in advance


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

John. I had a nice long post that i deleted. Sorry.

Thank you for doing a video of you and your dog. Most here dont.
You are doing well by my standards. You have a dog, he and you are real. He has some rudimentary training that looks much better than described, but not what i'd want in a sport dog.

do you have a trainer?

Good job for having a dog and training it. Set specific goals now and train towards them. With specific goals you can then target members here to draw from. Pick people of the sport and level you want to train to. There are some good ipo competitors here. I am not one.

I dont like kids playing with dogs that bite anymore than i like kids twirling loaded guns. Thats just me


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks Rick for your suggestions and for being so specific on key training points you noted. Some things you mentioned (like my delayed reaction) I kinda realized myself after watching the video. Thanks again for the advice I will defianatly put them to good use.

Dave, thanks for the words of encouragement. Are IPO dogs not supposed to be doing anything other than just IPO stuff, and are otherwise crated? I guess I have this image in my mind of the kind dog I want (you know the kind of dog they tout on companies who advertise protection dogs; ie. well rounded tolerant dogs around everyone and everything until commanded to not be) but not sute how exactly to do this or if I'm what I'm doing is like expecting to build an F1 racecar that I also want to use as a daily commuter. 

I remember seeing this video on YouTube of this guy and girl walking along this mall area with thier Mal stopping to have coffee as thier dog lay next to them, passerbys would do their thing, Freud would stop and chat and the dog remained calm and couldn't care less. They would command the dog to"stay" and he would lie outside while they entered stores, he sat on the curb as they loaded thier groceries; calm and cool as can be until an "assailant" enters the scene and tries to steal the woman's purse at which the handler gives a command and the dog flips the switch and goes into protection mode and then when it is over and he is called off the dog goes back to his calm and cool demeanor again. This is essentially the epitome of what I am ultimately after. Whether it's doable or not considering my resources and knowledge; that I don't know. 

I don't want to have a lawsuit on a leash; like you said, kinda like "twirling a loaded gun"...LOL


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I would poll the ipo folks here on your exact question. Cross reference the answers with their accomplishments. 

Do you have a club? who helped you with the pinch collar?


John Michaels said:


> Are IPO dogs not supposed to be doing anything other than just IPO stuff, and are otherwise crated?


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

John Michaels said:


> Are IPO dogs not supposed to be doing anything other than just IPO stuff, and are otherwise crated?


No, it's just that most people who are training to ultimately compete in schH first train the dog for that discipline in order to cement a solid foundation, high drive heeling, correct position, things like that. Also another example is you are giving a "stay" command after you give a "sit" or a "down" command. You can't do that in schH, it would be considered a double command because in schH "sit" or "down" or "stand" or any command means the dog is to do that until you say otherwise. Another thing is your're using the same commands as you would in schH, but the behaviours you are currently looking for (relaxed heeling for the street as a companion or pet, etc..) are not what you would want the dog to do in schH so it's a bit of a conflict.

I'm not saying you can't do it the way you're going, I'm just saying it's not the norm, which is fine. You will most likely have to use different commands for schH so as not to correct your dog for things you have already taught him are OK.

My best advise is for you to get with a schH trainer/mentor.

Have you been tracking your dog?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I trained with nearly all my dogs, Swiss National, IPO, SAR, etc.

I live in a small village and have about 3-4 minutes before I reach the forest.

Even if I had not trained my dogs in sports, I would have trained them to behave in public. It is not difficult:

On the lead (always in frequented areas). Any aggresive outcome by my dogs towards dogs, humans, etc. was / is stopped.

I do not know why this is so difficult for some handlers.

If my dog pulls on the lead, he gets a correction. He has to obey the fact that he is on the lead and I am Holding it. I am his "Boss". If he growls at another dog, he gets a correction. Through the village, I call him to heel and he must obey this. In the forest or round about, he has to obey the lead if another dog challenges him.

We live in a very small country. I allow them to run free only when I have a good overall vision of what is around.

I cannot see why this is so difficult:

My dog cannot be allowed to run free unless he has a 100% recall.

My dog cannot be allowed to growl, however quietly (I have good ears) or even suggest by his Body posture that he is aversive to an oncoming dog.

I have trained my dogs in various sports. With my older dogs, I do tracking.

I ensure them a healthy life until they decide to leave me, however young or old they are.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I cannot see why this is so difficult:


It isn't. But, everyone has to start somewhere and what may appear to be obvious to others that have been at it a while, may not be for those just starting out. I don't know if the OP is the owner of the other videos on that YouTube page, but I liked what I saw and think he will find a manageable way to put the feedback he receives into something useful.

By the way I'd like to give the OP props for asking questions and doing just what Dave said, which was essentially putting some substance out there. This might be one of only a handful of times I've ever seen anyone do that. I'm glad you did.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> It isn't. But, everyone has to start somewhere and what may appear to be obvious to others that have been at it a while, may not be for those just starting out. I don't know if the OP is the owner of the other videos on that YouTube page, but I liked what I saw and think he will find a manageable way to put the feedback he receives into something useful.


Nicole, I aggree with you on some points but not on the fact that "everyone has to start somewhere".

I started on "somewhere" with a pup that grew to be 70 Kilos end weight.

It isnt't difficult. I had no dog clubs at first to help me.

I onlÿ had a vision of what might happen if I didin't get my pup to obey before he reached 70 Kilos.

Come on, "what you don't want -you don't get".


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Again, that simple statement that you posted at the end may be obvious to individuals that have a natural and keener sense where animal relationships are concerned. For those without it, that need to told certain fundamentals in plain English, they're most certainly starting from a different place. No different than people operating at different levels of consciousness. The consciousness we operate in is equivalent to the lens we use to see reality. Replace the word consciousness with life experiences and it might seem more relatable.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Again, that simple statement that you posted at the end may be obvious to individuals that have a natural and keener sense where animal relationships are concerned. For those without it, that need to told certain fundamentals in plain English, they're most certainly starting from a different place. No different than people operating at different levels of consciousness. The consciousness we operate in is equivalent to the lens we use to see reality. Replace the word consciousness with life experiences and it might seem more relatable.


Exactly. And Gillian is it not possible you may have forgotten how difficult it was in the very beginning with your first dog for sport? Training to fix bad habits is good experience but if it can be avoided all the more power to him.

To the original poster: I think it looks like you're doing a great job with the obedience for walking around. I'd keep it relaxed, not too many commands. What you're doing now is great for walking around, but not at all what you want to see in schH, so I would keep the two very separate, don't use commands you plan on using when you start training for schH, etc..


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole

Put in plain words, what would you recommend a first pup owner should concentrate on?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

"set specific goals"
,,,plus 100

my experience has been that most people set goals that are NOT specific 

i try and get anyone i work with to make a goal for a week and work ONLY on that particular issue
- especially if it involves the dog in public where reactivity is a problem

not hard to do and the public is FULL of "training aids", but FIRST you have to develop a clear cut system where you can maintain control of the dog at all times
- and this is where i see most people fail....they think "control" simply means having the dog on a lead with their head on a swivel and at "the ready" to give it a pop, and never get beyond that general mindset

good luck and good vid


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Nicole
> 
> Put in plain words, what would you recommend a first pup owner should concentrate on?


No thank you. This thread was started by someone else and he's been one of the few to actually make something out of a thread that was started to ask for guidance. I wish to respect that. Perhaps you would be better served if you asked this of him. As in what does he feel he should be concentrating on.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

John Michaels said:


> Took this video today, as sugested to show what i was reffering to in my previous posts. Please excuse anything stupid i do in this video as i am very much a noob to dog training but would love to hear you're guy's input/advice/criticisms. Thank you in advance.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOXXyrlwQsI&list=UU0mbrmrQwHKH20DcufiVtig


 I'm hoping Matt Vandart will respond, and if you do a search you might find some of his videos to be helpful.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Some great info everyone, thank you so much for takeing the time.

Susan, thank you for elaborating on the possible conflicting training (SCH vs. pet stuff). 

Thing was I guess, is that I get out and work with my dog daily and access to any SCH knowlege other then what confusing stuff is on the net, I once a week at the most. I also found that as someone whil no knowledge of dog training much less IPO, all I knew was that my dog had to be taught soothing as if I just didn't tarin with him unless I was under a knowledgable IPO SME, then I had a dog who just did his own thing and me either not doing anything for fear of training him the wrong way, or not doing anything but watch helplessly as my dog who is getting older everyday and more set in his ways is doing his own thing like lungung and biting people, and I couldn't take him anywhere, he needed excersizebut that meant him behaving in a way that was acceptable in the varied environments he is taken. If I had someone I could train with everyday and be patient with me and show me exactly what to do I would abasing love that but this is just not something that is variable. I have spoken to a trainer at my local IPO (which is quite a drive from where I live) to mentor me but he is very busy and it just hasn't worked out so far.
So with the very little knowledge and resources I have at my fingers I am doing the best I can although I realize I am messing up, believe me I feel very overwhelmed and lost most times and feel like a blind man feeling his way in a dark room full of land mines.
But I really appreciate your guy's feed back, thank you all so much for takeing the time to respond to my post and for your patience withmany of my questions which albeit are probably very common sense to you guys. It's all new to me.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Also had no idea about not having to use a "stay" command, that totally makes sense. I adapted that into my training today, and will be doing so from now on


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

John Michaels said:


> Some great info everyone, thank you so much for takeing the time.
> 
> Susan, thank you for elaborating on the possible conflicting training (SCH vs. pet stuff).
> 
> ...


I completely "get" that. It's very frustrating when you have all the heart in the world and a good and willing dog, but no one to show you the ropes. 

One thing I see you doing that's really important, and I don't think it can be over stressed (at least I think it's that important), is the development of a great bond and working relationship between you and your dog. It will go a long way to help you with the adjustments and corrections you both will have to make when you do have someone standing before you who can help you with the nuts and bolts of IPO. 

I like that you have introduced the tug, it can really be helpful in obedience, especially once a dog understands the lesson (trained with food), then introduce the tug to bring up drives, makes the work very joyful for the dog.

I sent Matt a message on FB, and I hope he will respond here either privately or on this thread. For some reason I just think he can give you some good advise....albeit from a distance!

P.S. You're a mountain climber (wow and how cool is that?)! IPO will be a cake walk for you. Hang in there.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

If you have access to an ipo trainer once a week, t
have that guy help you with a plan. Too many cooks spoil the soup. Or something like that.

Not that there isnt a lot of good advice here, but trust your trainer til you dont.



John Michaels said:


> Some great info everyone, thank you so much for takeing the time.
> 
> Susan, thank you for elaborating on the possible conflicting training (SCH vs. pet stuff).
> 
> ...


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the op is on his way to having a well mannered dog. 

That does not mean it can't also be a good IPO dog. 

All the competition dogs I've had have had two forms of "heeling". One for competition and one for basic walks down the street.

If a person walkes their dog often and also competes in any form of obedience, IMHO will burn a dog out if constant, precise "heeling" is demanded of the dog all the time.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I had a similar problem with my mal, took ages to sort out. I have a bunch of vids on it, there's a thread, bit tired now but feel free to ask questions and I will endeavor to supply information in the morning. One thing I will say is a prong never worked.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Here you go:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/anyone-here-got-soft-dog-need-help-31881/

Thread is long.


----------



## Noel Long (Mar 13, 2013)

That is just awesome that you provided a video. Way to go!

Since I'm a noob too, I'll mention some simple things OP could change. Hold the leash in the hand closest to the dog and reduce _some_ slack to reduce the lag time between your movement and that action reaching the collar. At 2:35, reward with the hand closest to the dog. If that is the only valuable thing I contribute, I am happy! Reward with the hand nearest the dog.

Like you said, 75% of your life with this dog is as a pet. I'm going to talk about the fear and temperament issues apparent in this video and how you're addressing that in a pet.

First, can you do these socialization walks in a less urban environment? Your dog is not comfortable. Here are some symptoms: the ears down, side eye or whale eye, darting eye, snapping head around, lip licking. At ~1:46 he spooked at something to the left. Did you notice that? You know your dog is chases cars and has issues with strangers. Taking him into this environment and asking him to work or just deal is "flooding." Do you live in the city? Is this what he experiences daily to go to the bathroom?

At 1:50 is a good snapshot: person is approaching holding an umbrella. He is worried about that way before you act. You could have created distance, gotten his attention, asked him for a simple behavior, etc. Instead you wait until after he reacts then attempt to snap the leash. I don't think the snap reached him. Like another poster said, definitely put yourself between him and a passerby. I have a "switch" command for this.

Even more, I would approach his fearful behavior differently and not try to suppress the response through punishment. I don't think that address the problem, only the symptoms. Others more experienced than me may disagree. I would try to keep him under threshold and classically condition him to this scary stimuli. In the post where you describe him getting the zoomies, that may be up-stressing. Dogs up stress or down stress (that city walk). Address the problem and Fido won't have so much stress to manage.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i can see that you are building a good bond with your dog
-for me, that means building trust and respect
what i am seeing at this point is more respect than trust (the reactivity relates to trust; the OB relates to respect)

you might be able to decrease the reactivity thru more OB with corrections, but that's not how i work on it
- i use increased desensitizing in reactive situations
- it suppose that can also be described as "flooding", but i don't agree that any flooding is a wrong approach 
- for me it is simply watching the dog closer and rewarding NON reactivity while increasing the proximity to the distractions 

IPO clubs can teach you IPO techniques; great
- but will they teach you how to get this dog comfortable and non- reactive in public ??
.... i doubt it 

the tug work is fine
- u can always work on better grips, etc., but at least at this point the dog will leave its feet to grip a tug ... some won't even do that 

- i think it will also help to control reactivity when you can do tug work and positions (with a longer lead) in public, with distractions, and not just in a distraction free area
- nothing wrong with carrying a tug reward along with your treats when you are out and about

*BTW
stop considering yourself a noob...you're way ahead of a lot of owners i work with //lol//


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I agree with Rick re: the tug. Helped loads with Sali


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

*Noel*; regarding some of the things you said:
I used to hold the leash with the hand closest to the dog, however I noticed that I would inadvertently tense up in anticipation of having to provide a correction when a stimuli approached which possibly contributed to the dog feeling that tension and reacting. I found that by holding the leash in my right hand and keeping a ‘slack’ in the line gave the dog more of an opportunity to decide which behavior he would do when encountering a stimulus without an initial feed back from me.
As for rewarding with that hand, I do try to do that but for some reason my left and is a bit ‘retarded’ and is awkward at doing anything lol. But yeah especially when I am doing more of a competition type heel I use that hand.
As far as decreasing the stimulus; he is totally fine with car etc. at a distance other than shown in the video. Bu I am aware that he is quite stressed; so what I try to do is start the walk far from the main road building up to the main road then depending on his reaction ( I watch for head low, ears back, looking back and other frightened nervous behaviours) or if I need to correct him frequently then I take him off that busy road and “play” with him or do other OB stuff he is already proficient in. Then when his spirits are back up I will bring him back to the busy road or if he it reverts back to the previous reaction I will take him down a slightly less busy road or walk on the other side of the street where he is on the inside of the sidewalk and I am closer to the road (he is less fearful when the cars approach from the front and not from behind and when I am between him an the stimulus. (which relates to a previous posters’ feedback earlier in this thread)
As far as my delayed response to his focusing on the people approaching, normally I would correct him as soon as he focused on the approaching people, and would normally put myself between the dog and the pedestrians I wanted to see if his intention was more of a curious nature or an aggressive one. (in both cases he merely wanted to sniff and did not try and bite or lunge at them as he used to)
*Rick;* thank you for your suggestion “- i think it will also help to control reactivity when you can do tug work and positions (with a longer lead) in public, with distractions, and not just in a distraction free area, nothing wrong with carrying a tug reward along with your treats when you are out and about” 
I do absolutely do this; have been and still do OB stuff and tug stuff near the stimulus (usually at a fenced ball park near a busy public road) I move closer to the stimulus depending on his “distractibility”. I have even done OB a few times at the gun range.
*Bob*: Yes, I think competition heeling has its place and looks amazing but to ask the dog to do this anytime I walk him is (IMO) impractical and not a standard I want to hold him to. What I hope to do is develop a competition heel, a casual walking heel (where he is right next to my left leg but free to look around, but stops and sits when I stop) and later on, (as I do a variety of mountaineering activities that I intend to take him to) a free walk where he can walk anywhere within a radius of about 3-4 ft around me or my group.
*Matt:* As you might have read in the original post; up to now I have not used any aversive training aids on my dog, and was trying to stick to ‘classical conditioning’ and other “positive” methods and while I honestly believe that it is possible to train my dog and reach the same result I think it would have taken a lot more time to just get him past his basic ‘herding breed’ inclinations; which (for me) meant that I could not take my dogs on walks, have him around anyone as he would growl and try and bit them, and if nothing else I became so nervous and overwhelmed as a handler that I am sure my dog sensed that and made him feel even more reactive. What I do now that I really think works is follow a basic guideline that “always teach a new behaviour in a reward based way (treats etc.), once he knows what is expected of him, then reward good behaviour and if necessary use a correction” If he required frequent correction I stop that exercise and move on to play or something I know he is proficient at and always try to end the session in a positive way and never give a correction when I am in an emotional and frustrated state of mind.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Also thought I'd post this very quick video of my 7 year old son's first time ever trying to walk him.

(FYI: my dog used to jump up on my son and try to bite him and if i tried to pull him away he would start growling and snarling and even try and bite me...that was before i started this thread)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrLrmT7GNhM&list=UU0mbrmrQwHKH20DcufiVtig


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I dont like kids playing with dogs that bite anymore than i like kids twirling loaded guns. Thats just me[/QUOTE]


Dave, To me all dogs “bite” are you saying kids should not really be around dogs that have had bite training?


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

rick smith said:


> also, when i see people approaching in the opposite direction i ALWAYS try and move to the left and make the people pass on my right, while keeping the dog on my left hip
> 
> - with a little practice, this is very easy to do
> - with a reactive dog, i would NEVER allow them to pass so that my dog is between them and me (hard to control that way)
> ...


Rick, am I understanding what you’re getting at? You’re saying that you purposely walk in a manner as to put you in between other people and a dog you’re walking in hopes of reducing the chances of a dog tagging someone?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

They all bite. Trained dogs bite better. Sometimes it works (dogs and kids) but if you are wrong it can be catastrophic. I think most people are too stupid to be honest with what their dog can do and their ability to handle it. Watered down soft dogs make people overconfident. Is someone a good judge if their dog doesnt bite their kid or are they justlucky?


Chris McDonald said:


> I dont like kids playing with dogs that bite anymore than i like kids twirling loaded guns. Thats just me


 
Dave, To me all dogs “bite” are you saying kids should not really be around dogs that have had bite training?

[/QUOTE]


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> They all bite. Trained dogs bite better. Sometimes it works (dogs and kids) but if you are wrong it can be catastrophic. I think most people are too stupid to be honest with what their dog can do and their ability to handle it. Watered down soft dogs make people overconfident. Is someone a good judge if their dog doesnt bite their kid or are they justlucky?
> 
> 
> Dave, To me all dogs “bite” are you saying kids should not really be around dogs that have had bite training?


[/QUOTE]


Aaaahhhh I cant say I really agree with what you are getting at as a whole, but that’s ok that’s what this is all about. I’m thinking the “kid dog” vs “kid loaded gun” was just a bit of an exaggeration to make your point? Ill agree that you do need to be careful with dogs and kids But im not going to say that all dogs can’t be trusted with kids, because all dogs can bite. I do think there are dogs that can be trusted with kids to a pretty high degree. I think we all have known a few dogs that we would trust with kids. We can probably even make a few different categories for these dogs. For example there are dogs that I would say are very, very unlikely to ever bite kids (but will note nothing is impossible). But out of this group of very trustworthy dogs we can split into 3 more groups of knock over hazards. They might not bite but are they full blow spazs that might knock over a kid, older person or anyone. And I think its fair to say that we have seen dogs that actually slow things down in the presence of kids or elders? And then there are dogs in-between. Now I personally think that this can even go for gogo working dog? I do think there are gogo working dogs trained in bite work that can be but in the “trust not to bite kids” and in the “gentle category” of the 3 “likely to trample” ratings? 
Now when I say “can be trusted with kids” I mean that I would say that it is unlikely that the dog I am thinking of would ever bite my kids to a point I cannot think of an example that may cause it. I am also willing to say that there are very few reason this dog would bite with any kid with intent. 
As far as water downed dogs I can even argue that the water downed week dogs are the ones more likely to tag a kid? Maybe that is what you meant as well? But I can also argue that I can see the spun up “prey drive” sport/ working dogs that are craved bred/ created by so many today can tag a kid too. 
Now I am also saying “tag” and not “maul”, I think you are kind of referring that a trained dog is more likely to maul a kid than just tag and retreat? Any dog that ever mauls a kid was not a stable dog in anyway. A dog that mauls is not even what I am talking about here. I am talking about a dog that tags a kid for taking its bone or feels threatened for some reason and tags. Now I can say that I am for the most part talking about kids that when old enough have proper manners with a dog and are not torturing it. 
A well-bred and raised shepherd such as the German, Dutch or Belgium should not react to a 3 year old taking its bone. The dog should realize that it is a dog and the 3 year old is a people and people rule over dogs and can take their bones at any time. If it does react in a negative manor, it’s a cull. 

Ok ok im typing in circles and aint going to read this and try and clean it up at all. I am officially over thinking your one sentence. And have only said about 1/100th of what Im thinking. Im going to stop thinking now and watch tv. 
 Sorry for the side track


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Chris 
since you asked :
-- "Rick, am I understanding what you’re getting at? You’re saying that you purposely walk in a manner as to put you in between other people and a dog you’re walking in hopes of reducing the chances of a dog tagging someone?"

i'll try and give you a more complete answer
it's more involved than what you referred to

first off, it's a given that if i am between a "distraction" and my dog i have many more ways of controlling it and can use my body to block it if it really got out of hand and lunged, etc

if the dog is in the middle (or out in front) all i can do is yank and crank to bring it in line 

but one of the main reasons i handle this way (for a reactive dog), is because i want to CLEARLY show the dog that "I" will be the one to react, not the mutt 
- meaning the dog has to go thru ME to get to anyone; even if it is just to approach them to "check em out" 
- (for a reactive dog) i don't want the dog leading me around and i don't want the dog "on point". i want it next to me or slightly behind
- and i don't want to waste my time giving it OB commands that it might obey but not have any effect on reducing the problem (i have had dogs that i could put into a sit, and they would, but all the time they were sitting they were waiting for a chance to nail the person)

- call it pack leadership if u choose to //lol//
- therefore, "I" will be the one bringing it to distractions and the dog will follow. i will decide everything, not the freaking dog. 
- the more i do this the quicker the dog learns that it's job is to follow me rather than scan the world for distractions to react to
- i would add, i will CONSTANTLY seek distractions rather than avoid them, and every dog i've worked with starts to get it sooner or later

** NOTE**
- i am NOT trying to make the dog friendly or sociable
and i'm not trying to seek out new friends for the dog
** my goal is ONLY "tolerance"
- and i have done this with VERY unsociable dogs who do NOT care to meet people, and with dogs who have bitten people

i'm trying to say my answer is a bit more than just "yes"


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

* I’m thinking the “kid dog” vs “kid loaded gun” was just a bit of an exaggeration to make your point?
[B/]

Not at all. All guns arent loaded and an unloaded gun cant hurt you. If you treat them all as loaded you reduce your risk. More people are shot by percieved unloaded guns than not. The dog version is "he's never done that before."

People are stupid. They cant say "i'm not sure". They cant ask for help or direction in a lot of cases. Sure there are child safe dogs. Then there are ones that arent. The deciding factor in the child getting bit is the parent in a lot of instances You think parents/peoples judgement is getting better or worse here in the USA ? I say getting worse based on any news i have seen lately.*


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Chris
> since you asked :
> -- "Rick, am I understanding what you’re getting at? You’re saying that you purposely walk in a manner as to put you in between other people and a dog you’re walking in hopes of reducing the chances of a dog tagging someone?"
> 
> ...


_Rick, am I understanding what you’re getting at? You’re saying that you purposely walk in a manner as to put you in between other people and a dog you’re walking in hopes of reducing the chances of a dog tagging someone?"
_
It is so much more than physically reducing the chances of a dog tagging someone. This would be a momentary action and I read from Rick's post that he is more interested in showing his dog who is "in charge".

I do very similar with my dogs. It's old school but probably the most effective way of keeping a dog in control.

Walking with the Fila on a lane next to the woods, we encountered a Newfoundland plus owner (in this order). Both are known to me and the owner took his dog on to the neighbouring field but was unable to stop him from standing on his back legs and aggressively barking.

One step further and I realised the Fila would try to cross in front of me to get at the other dog. Even a stark "Fuss" might not work, so I punched him between the eyes and called "Fuss" and we were able to walk politely past.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Gillian, I am totally new the world of dog training; would you please elaborate on what you said in your most recent comment? Do you mean that you literally "punched" you dog in the face to get his attention? (I'm sorry if this is a dumb question)


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Yes, I dd. But I hurt my fist more than I hurt the dog. However, it got his attention. The Fila was 50 Kilos and had the stature and build of a Rottweiler.

Let's face it, had he not obeyed me, the situation would not have been very pleasant. Given his 50 Kilos on 4 legs to my 50 Kilos on 2 legs......

He was otherwise a well-mannered dog but we had encountered the other dog a number of times. Unfortunately the owner never did anything to correct his dog's aggressiveness.

This has nothing to do with dog training. This is a survival instinct :grin:


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

interesting...


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dude, if you read the thread you will see I had to move to non aversives because it was making Sali worse.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Yes, I dd. But I hurt my fist more than I hurt the dog. However, it got his attention. The Fila was 50 Kilos and had the stature and build of a Rottweiler.
> 
> Let's face it, had he not obeyed me, the situation would not have been very pleasant. Given his 50 Kilos on 4 legs to my 50 Kilos on 2 legs......
> 
> ...



There is a time and place for anything and everything. ;-)


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

John Michaels said:


> interesting...


In what way?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You are right Bob. There is a time and place for anything and everything but, more important than that in my mind is the timing. My timing with the Fila was spot on and so I avoided conflict.

No one told me via the Internet how to react because we didn't have it, or at least, I wasn't aware of it.

I was brought up strictly but lovingly and I based my dog's education on this. 

What you don't want - you don't get AND be careful what you wish for.

Obviously I had a lot of valuable advice from the all breeds clubs, probably now old-fashioned, but it worked.

Dog forums are invaluable but there are a certain number of dog handlers who have never inherited the idea that a) the dog is the lowest member of the family - even the cat sets itself above it or at least tries to!! and b) it is their job to educate it so that it becomes a polite member of our society.

Dog training comes after this and there are so many competent trainers around offering their help.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

You cannot do that in the UK unless you want someone to call the police.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> You are right Bob. There is a time and place for anything and everything but, more important than that in my mind is the timing. My timing with the Fila was spot on and so I avoided conflict.
> 
> No one told me via the Internet how to react because we didn't have it, or at least, I wasn't aware of it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Without timing there can be little to no good training!


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> You cannot do that in the UK unless you want someone to call the police.


You are joking of course. Have you never physically corrected any of your dogs?

There's beem all sorts of tales on here about "hanging" the dog until it nearly passes out, etc. to avoid a serious situation.

The dog hardly have felt it (unlike my knuckles) but it got his attention which what I was aiming for. 

If the dog had started to go for the other dog, probably his owner would have let him loose and I or one or both dogs would have been injured.

As for someone calling the police, they don't even call the police when dog fighting is going on in England.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nope I'm not joking.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I understand that the animal rights people in GB make peta look like slackers.


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Bob Scott said:


> I understand that the animal rights people in GB make peta look like slackers.


 
A cautionary tale for us here.


----------



## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> You cannot do that in the UK unless you want someone to call the police.



Better than needing someone to call (you) an ambulance, yes?


.....and in the case of that 100lbs+ fila mentioned, or other large mastiff breed....they might be calling a morgue.

And I'm not joking.


----------



## Noel Long (Mar 13, 2013)

John Michaels said:


> *Noel*; regarding some of the things you said:
> I used to hold the leash with the hand closest to the dog, however I noticed that I would inadvertently tense up in anticipation of having to provide a correction when a stimuli approached which possibly contributed to the dog feeling that tension and reacting. I found that by holding the leash in my right hand and keeping a ‘slack’ in the line gave the dog more of an opportunity to decide which behavior he would do when encountering a stimulus without an initial feed back from me.
> As for rewarding with that hand, I do try to do that but for some reason my left and is a bit ‘retarded’ and is awkward at doing anything lol. But yeah especially when I am doing more of a competition type heel I use that hand.
> As far as decreasing the stimulus; he is totally fine with car etc. at a distance other than shown in the video. Bu I am aware that he is quite stressed; so what I try to do is start the walk far from the main road building up to the main road then depending on his reaction ( I watch for head low, ears back, looking back and other frightened nervous behaviours) or if I need to correct him frequently then I take him off that busy road and “play” with him or do other OB stuff he is already proficient in. Then when his spirits are back up I will bring him back to the busy road or if he it reverts back to the previous reaction I will take him down a slightly less busy road or walk on the other side of the street where he is on the inside of the sidewalk and I am closer to the road (he is less fearful when the cars approach from the front and not from behind and when I am between him an the stimulus. (which relates to a previous posters’ feedback earlier in this thread)
> As far as my delayed response to his focusing on the people approaching, normally I would correct him as soon as he focused on the approaching people, and would normally put myself between the dog and the pedestrians I wanted to see if his intention was more of a curious nature or an aggressive one. (in both cases he merely wanted to sniff and did not try and bite or lunge at them as he used to)


Being proficient with both hands takes practice. We are all retarded when we first tried using our left or non-dominant hand. You'll get it.

For the pressure of the urban environment, it sounds like you are letting the dog getting elevated then retreating, calming the dog down, then going back to the stimulus where dog gets elevated, then retreating again. I think this is common because what I'm describing may be too subtle. I'm saying you want the dog to never get that high in the first place. To sooooo gradually increase the pressure or stimuli that his heart rate never increases. Slow and steady wins the race.

For him being distracted by people. I wouldn't try to correct him after you lost his focus. Correct yourself! [-X I would get and keep his focus _before_ he moved his entire head and track to sniff the person with the umbrella. I'd also keep the stimulus to a level I knew he was capable of keeping focus in, as described in the above para.



Chris McDonald said:


> Rick, am I understanding what you’re getting at? You’re saying that you purposely walk in a manner as to put you in between other people and a dog you’re walking in hopes of reducing the chances of a dog tagging someone?


A big part of the reason I keep myself between my dog and a passerby is to control the passerby! I think it communicates a clearer message to Joe Shmoe to not fawn and fuss over my dog like some bandanna-wearing doodle :twisted:. I can also more quickly intervene if I see Joe Shmoe make a move.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: Originally Posted by Chris McDonald.... 
Rick, am I understanding what you’re getting at? You’re saying that you purposely walk in a manner as to put you in between other people and a dog you’re walking in hopes of reducing the chances of a dog tagging someone?
A big part of the reason I keep myself between my dog and a passerby is to control the passerby! I think it communicates a clearer message to Joe Shmoe to not fawn and fuss over my dog like some bandanna-wearing doodle . I can also more quickly intervene if I see Joe Shmoe make a move.

ditto...for SURE !
i always trust the dog i'm with more than the strangers i meet


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Travis Ragin said:


> Better than needing someone to call (you) an ambulance, yes?
> 
> 
> .....and in the case of that 100lbs+ fila mentioned, or other large mastiff breed....they might be calling a morgue.
> ...


I know your not joking, I'm not doing anything other than stating facts of the UK. 
I have mentioned before how bizarre this country is. You cannot correct a dog in such a manner but you can take it out the back yard 
and shoot it.

In fact in the particular part of the UK I am in E-collars are illegal and I have recently been told pinch collars are also.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Guys, I think Rick in some cases is referring to dogs he may be “evaluating” ? I understand this is done in the safest way possible with an experienced handler such as you guys and it is done for various reasons. 
I also understand that there may be dogs that have been abused and mistreated that may be a handful to control, maybe tagging people? I have little to no experience with dogs that have been abused to the point of making them aggressive. I also have mixed feelings on rehabilitating these dogs. I guess we all have different lines at which we think a dog is safe for public? To me a dog will fall back on its foundation under a stressful situation. These dogs can be very dangerous especially for an inexperienced handler who the dog fooled into thinking it was more stable than it is. 

There are certainly LE working dogs that fall into this tagging category. These dogs have tagged people including kids for just being there. Mostly in fairly tight areas such as busy rush hour, tubular type areas..
To me these dogs and handlers should only not be in public but should not be? 
But I also think you guys are speaking of sport, PP dogs, maybe LE working dogs, dogs in general? Dogs that you feel are “good” dogs but you have to be careful with around other people. 

My question is does anyone else think there is something wrong with dogs being this way? If you feel the need to get yourself in between a person and the dog for the person’s safety was there a failure with breeding or training some place along the line? Is it a sign of instability? Was it a dog that should not have been used in the field or sport it is in? Were dogs always like this? Im not necessarily speaking of a dog that wants to maul someone for no reason.. to me there is certainly a problem there. I am talking of the dog that feels the need to tag or even bite and hold for a bit. 
It was also put “to control joe shmoe” “intervene if I see joe shmoe make a move” who the hell would want a dog such as this? It doesn’t make me think this dog is tough or bad ass it makes me think the dog is weak or poorly trained?
Now im not talking about a dog that is reacting to a threat or a dog that has been trained to guard its yard I am talking about a dog that tags a 10 year olds hand because the kid runs by or tags a joe shmoe who walks by the dog and the is looking the other way talking to someone else and the dog goes for it? 

I kinda get the feeling that some people think this is a good dog that has what it takes and is the kind of dog they want? I don’t get it what good are these dogs? 
To me unless a dog was needed specifically to bite a person or kid for simply being there the dog should not be. 
To me the failure I am speaking of is in both the breeding and training. The want, breeding, crafting and training of what most refer to as “pry drive” has led to these spun up can’t control themselves dogs. The breeding for a spun up “high prey” drive dog combined with “building drive” and making a dog ball crazed has just led to making of the dog I am speaking of? Maybe not in all cases but in a lot? 
Im sure many will disagree. 
JMO


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have mentioned before how bizarre this country is. You cannot correct a dog *in such a manner ??*

I know where you're coming from *but do you or any one else think that the dog even "felt" the correction???*


The Fila is an extremely obedient dog and fairly easy to train (it has an extra plus (long life). Gaucho lived to be 14,5 years. From the Bloodhound it has excellent tracking potential.

Matt, the Fila has not been allowed into Britain since the lifting of the quarantine laws.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> I know your not joking, I'm not doing anything other than stating facts of the UK.
> I have mentioned before how bizarre this country is. You cannot correct a dog in such a manner but you can take it out the back yard
> and shoot it.
> 
> In fact in the particular part of the UK I am in E-collars are illegal and I have recently been told pinch collars are also.


 Shake Hands!!

The advantage we have over you is that our police normally drive around in cars. We live in a small village surrounded more or less by forest They have trouble carrying out their normal duties let alone checking out what collars our dogs are wearing,

We have so many laws about what we are not allowed to do with our dogs but who is going to check up on it - probably the neighbour if he doesn't like you......


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> re: Originally Posted by Chris McDonald....
> Rick, am I understanding what you’re getting at? You’re saying that you purposely walk in a manner as to put you in between other people and a dog you’re walking in hopes of reducing the chances of a dog tagging someone?
> A big part of the reason I keep myself between my dog and a passerby is to control the passerby! I think it communicates a clearer message to Joe Shmoe to not fawn and fuss over my dog like some bandanna-wearing doodle . I can also more quickly intervene if I see Joe Shmoe make a move.
> 
> ...


+1


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I think your dog felt it, it would not have been an effective correction otherwise.
I have used this method before myself with dobermans and EBT's past, it is extremely effective. wouldn't work with my mali though.
Last time corrected one of my dobermans in a similar way, I got a ton of abuse by some random chick in a car.

The police wouldn't have to inspect any collars, someone would grass one up. Every day I meet at least one such minded person.


----------



## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> wouldn't work with my mali though.



What technique ended up working for you?


----------



## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

rick smith said:


> ditto...for SURE !
> i *always trust* the dog i'm with more than the strangers i meet



Your statement here is actually declaring that you both *don't trust* your dog.......more than the strangers you meet.




Chris McDonald pointed out the root cause of your(or anyone else's) distrust of their dog in public in another post in this thread....though he *politely* phrased it as a question :
_""_ If you feel the need to get yourself in between a person and the dog for the person’s safety was there a failure with breeding or training some place along the line?_""_


----------



## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> To me the failure I am speaking of is in both the breeding and training. The want, breeding, crafting and training of what most  refer to as “pry drive” has led to these spun up can’t control themselves dogs. The breeding for a spun up “high prey” drive dog combined with “building drive” and making a dog ball crazed has just led to making of the dog I am speaking of? Maybe not in all cases but in a lot?


*'spun up' 'ball Crazed' 'can't control themselves'*

Those descriptions are very accurate, and the last one really points out the clear imbalance mindset created from over loading a dog in 'building drive' right there in the first word....'can't'. Prey drive is a primal instinct in a dog, the same way defense drive is. Time and again at training fields and on-line postings, many _psuedo_-trainer's recommend/suggest it automatically on any dog sight unseen-,for protection especially and for other tasks as well.....and from day one introduction,attempt to trigger it in a dog. 

Upon seeing a fast moving object(edible or not!!) this instinct sends the dogs mind racing on the brink of panic....that it will miss a meal. So its first instinct is to race after and bite into whatever it was that crossed their line of vision.

How might overuse of triggering THAT instinct....produce a problem in real life?

If overuse of training a dog in defense causes a problem with control-from a mind spun up on the brink of panic, then logically,overuse of prey has to cause(some) the same issues, e.g..biting inappropriately. Yes? No? 

The word balance is often thrown around too often as well....If one conducts their training, and suggests to others, in even about 70% prey drive only, how is that(creating) a balanced dog?


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Just an update; I am now very confident with my dog out in public around any kinds of stimulus. The other night i had him in a "down" and had our two other dogs walking around him a kitten ran right in front of him and had my son (who he normally jumps up on and nips) step over him and he didn’t get up and for the most part kept his focus on me. When out on walks he pays no mind to most stimulus (with the exception of small dogs) which, with either a slight correction and/or a "heel" command he will ignore the other dog but even then he doesn’t leave my side or display the behaviours he used to when faced by the same situations. He walks nicely by my side on a loose leash and stops and sits when I stop, he is 90% on the "stay" even with cars and various stimulus going by. 

The last two night though I encountered a new situation where when we are out walking, we stop and he sits like I have been getting him to do and then when its time to go (continue walking) he wont get out of the sit and will not move. i first tried luring him with food, then the tug, pulling him with the fursaver...i pretty much had to drag him by his flat collar to get him to start walking again. I thought maybe walking and heeling amidst all the stimulus is really stressful for him since he has to contain himself and he just gets frustrated and gives up....but I really don’t know. Curious to hear your guys' take on this.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

real simple, dont allow your dog to bite people it shouldnt.

I dont see it as a problem with the breeding or the training specifically.

I see it as stupidity or naiveity. in the ownership and handling of the dog itself.

not all dogs are meant to be social pets. period.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Travis Ragin said:


> Your statement here is actually declaring that you both *don't trust* your dog.......more than the strangers you meet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In Europe, the dog walks always on the left side of its handler. Stems from Military and Police dog handlers - holster right - dog left.

It is also a courtesy to passers by as the dog is always on the inside away from the passer by. I cannot control people's nervousness but I can certainly try not to enhance it.

As for hyped up dogs, we control our dogs before they enter the schutzdienst field. I don't want my dog letting out all his energy before he commences protection work. 

You would be surprised how many breeders over here are not interested in 100 % prey dogs.

A dog that has trained to be an excellent protection dog in sport, etc. can also be trained to be a quiet obedient dog on the street. It all depends on the handler.


----------



## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

How and what position a person chooses to walk their pooch is a matter of preference, just like what dog food to use. No reason ever has to be given for justification. Also,keeping a dog away/shielding them from passers by is definitely a courtesy.






> I cannot control people's nervousness but I can certainly try not to enhance it.


This is definitely true as well...
but the main issue to remember here, is the fact that you just can't easily control people-period, especially a stranger on the street. Therefore, *all* efforts must be put into controlling/training (your) dog.....because the dogs actions, are what (you) are ultimately responsible for.

When that training is done, proficiently.....the *need *for shielding(should) becomes obsolete.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Travis Ragin said:


> How and what position a person chooses to walk their pooch is a matter of preference, just like what dog food to use. No reason ever has to be given for justification. Also,keeping a dog away/shielding them from passers by is definitely a courtesy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't really think I need you to preach to me how I should walk my dog.

When the dog is on the left hand side of me, he is on the inner side. It has nothing but absolutely nothing to do with the control I have over the dog.

It is merely, as I said before, a courtesy to the oncoming passer by who is often as not, relieved to see that the dog is walking to heel but away from her/him and absolutely no threat. Are you not aware of some persons absolute Horror of dogs, heeling politely or not???

What on earth are you trying to insinuate that anyone is trying to "shield" their dog by walking it on the left Hand side, i.e. the inner side.


----------



## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't really think I need you to preach to me how I should walk my dog.
> 
> When the dog is on the left hand side of me, he is on the inner side. It has nothing but absolutely nothing to do with the control I have over the dog.
> 
> ...


Gillian I don't think he was trying to "preach" to you but it's up to Travis to answer that. 

With respect to the rest of your comments, here in North America MOST handlers also heel their dog to the left side most of the time, however, since "we" drive on the right side of the road, people normally walk on the right here, meaning that a dog that heels on left side of handler is between the handle and a pedestrian walking past. A handler or passerby needs to go out of their way to put themself between the dog and the passerby... If you wanted to "shield" the dog.

As for some people being horrified of dogs... Too bad for them. If they don't like the world around them then they can retreat from it but I'm fed up having other people tell me what I can or can't do simply because it offends them or scares them. But that's just my opinion


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"A dog that has trained to be an excellent protection dog in sport, etc. can also be trained to be a quiet obedient dog on the street. It all depends on the handler".


+1

I will say that if someone is coming from the other direction and shows concern over my dog I will move my dog to the grass in order to let them go by. 

I've never felt the need to feed my ego with a bad ass dog.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> "A dog that has trained to be an excellent protection dog in sport, etc. can also be trained to be a quiet obedient dog on the street. It all depends on the handler".
> 
> 
> +1
> ...


I agree...


----------



## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It is merely, as I said before, a courtesy to the oncoming passer by who is often as not, relieved to see that the dog is walking to heel but away from her/him and absolutely no threat. Are you not aware of some persons absolute Horror of dogs, heeling politely or not???
> .


Absolutely, another way when encountering a person walking,w.kids/w.dogs......is to give a friendly wave or call out as soon as they are spotted,and say something like 'we're ok!' or 'i got'em!'.....then continue on and *trust* that your dog understands (your) expectations.

And yes, to some people it doesn't matter, there is a dog, there is panic. 

Which is why more often it is easier to just *train *and tell your dog to keep it moving, in any needed scenario... and continue on about (your) business. No need to respond to that energy......and the dog will respond to that energy just like (you) do8)


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> real simple, dont allow your dog to bite people it shouldnt.
> 
> I dont see it as a problem with the breeding or the training specifically.
> 
> ...



This.

Travis I will address your question when I get back from taking the dogs out.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My last post, # 122 on this thread is a quote from Gillian's # 118.

My usual incompetence with these new fangled typewriters strikes again.  :grin:

Apologies to Gillian! :wink:


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Travis Ragin said:


> *Which is why more often it is easier to just train and tell your dog to keep it moving, in any needed scenario... and continue on about (your) business.* No need to respond to that energy......and the dog will respond to that energy just like (you) do8)


That ^^ is basically what I ended up doing with a combination of tugs, balls and crazy spun up drive stuff, because, she is a crazy spun up prey/ball/tug dog and really rather rude.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Travis Ragin said:


> Your statement here is actually declaring that you both *don't trust* your dog.......more than the strangers you meet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Wow, I like being referred to at polite :razz:


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Travis Ragin said:


> *'spun up' 'ball Crazed' 'can't control themselves'*
> 
> Those descriptions are very accurate, and the last one really points out the clear imbalance mindset created from over loading a dog in 'building drive' right there in the first word....'can't'. Prey drive is a primal instinct in a dog, the same way defense drive is. Time and again at training fields and on-line postings, many _psuedo_-trainer's recommend/suggest it automatically on any dog sight unseen-,for protection especially and for other tasks as well.....and from day one introduction,attempt to trigger it in a dog.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly, what you said!


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think everyone agrees? But if you cant walk down the street without being concerned what kind kind of dog do you have? Who wants it? For what? What is it good for other than letting loose on a compound in a country far far away? 
And what do you mean by meant? Breed? Trained

Somehow I got some of my responses in the box above.. I just left them there?


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't really think I need you to preach to me how I should walk my dog.
> 
> When the dog is on the left hand side of me, he is on the inner side. It has nothing but absolutely nothing to do with the control I have over the dog.
> 
> ...


 
So you’re saying you only do it as a curtesy and not because you are concerned about the dog biting?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have always taught my dogs to walk quietly by my side when on the lead in built-up areas, etc.from being young. "Fuss" is something that is drilled in to them unconditionally, however without looking up at me.

To answer your question:

I would be very concerned if one of my dogs *attempted* to bite someone passing by but after numerous dogs and no biting of persons passing by, I am confident I would recognize any attempt to do so and could thwart it.

Any dog that would bite a passerby for no reason is dangerous and has obviously never learned the unconditional "Fuss".

I onced passed a woman in the town who walked out into the road to avoid us - the dog was on my left as usual and was totally ignoring her. 

I cannot help people lose their fear but I can ensure that none of my dogs would seriously warrant it.

I've mostly always had large dogs and non-dog owners who don't know me can never be quite sure if they are under control - so yes, courtesy is also a factor.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have always taught my dogs to walk quietly by my side when on the lead in built-up areas, etc.from being young. "Fuss" is something that is drilled in to them unconditionally, however without looking up at me.
> 
> To answer your question:
> 
> ...


That was a bit dangerous wasn't it?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm not sure where this thread is heading anymore but i'll throw in one more comment regardless of how "off topic" it might be 

(it is based on MY own philosophy of working with dogs : i will always confront the issue and not avoid it or manage it)

i also think it is an area that is overlooked and one that many owners are not aware of...
- it's one of the biggest problems i have when walking a reactive dog in public. 
- or when walking a dog that may have DA issues in public

caveat : it happens even if you have total control over the dog you are with, and are using safe handling procedures

since you have almost ZERO control over "others" ... 
when they act paranoid and try and avoid you, when they scoop up their dog and run off, when they hurriedly give you space, when they act scared, or just act stupid for no reason.....

ALL these things send messages to the dog you are with.....and they are NOT good messages, because it makes your dog think they are "running off" the competition :-(
IMO it can add more reactivity (regardless of how calm you are) with the dog you are with, and handlers need to be aware of this and NOT reinforce this in any way

some things i do :
- following the "escapees", even if it upsets them. often when they see me do this they will start to get the memo and realize their action was unnecessary
- i also sometimes ask them to please stop for a second and i try to strike up a conversation
- i have a few other techniques too

my point is that i only care about the dog i'm with. 
if it works; fine....i've helped the dog i'm with 
it it doesn't work; fine too....it doesn't ruin my day 

note ** i'm not out there to make new friends for me or the dog
- this approach works for me and i will keep working dogs this way when i'm out in public, because that's what i think reactive dogs need


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> I think everyone agrees? But if you cant walk down the street without being concerned what kind kind of dog do you have? Who wants it? For what? What is it good for other than letting loose on a compound in a country far far away?
> And what do you mean by meant? Breed? Trained
> 
> Somehow I got some of my responses in the box above.. I just left them there?


I mean that if you cant walk down the street without being overly concerned that your dog is going to cause mayhem and murder, that tells me that you probably should not own that particular dog, period.

I think what comes into play here is the owners, and how competent they are in what they do with their dogs.


----------

