# trial recap that segued into abuse/neglect in WD world



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I we had a crazy number of people enter the trial, it was a ton of fun. I think Katrina is working on the scores and all that jazz right now so they should be available soon. I trialed two dogs, Cobra my mutt and Seven my young dog who is not 2 yet.

Seven got his PDC but I did not pass Level 1 obedience, we still have some control issues that I am working on fixing. Also my down in motions turned into sit in motions. Today I noticed he has no skin on the dew claw part of his paws and won't lay all the way down. I think he might have been hurting so that's why he didn't go all the way down, instead he hovered. Who knows. :/ 

I still did level 1 bite work with him and passed that with distinction. Too bad it didn't count lol. Cobra's long down turned into a sit outside of the cones and did some other stuff that cost me my level 1 as well. Her bite work was good and I really just did it for fun.  It was a tourney style trial so I ended up placing 1st with Seven in level 1 and 3rd with Cobra in level 1.

I have so much training to do but I learned a lot as this was my 1st time to try for a level 1. I had two level 2 guys in my club with awesome performances but did not pass the obedience. That stuff isn't easy! We had one level 3 in my club who passed obedience but not bite work, oh well next time. All in all it was a blast and I can't wait to do it again.  Here's a little clip of Seven from the trial. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X3UOFT-mlI


*This trial recap is now over here:*
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f37/dallas-psa-trial-recap-25401/


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

georgia estes said:


> I we had a crazy number of people enter the trial, it was a ton of fun. I think Katrina is working on the scores and all that jazz right now so they should be available soon. I trialed two dogs, Cobra my mutt and Seven my young dog who is not 2 yet.
> 
> Seven got his PDC but I did not pass Level 1 obedience, we still have some control issues that I am working on fixing. Also my down in motions turned into sit in motions. Today I noticed he has no skin on the dew claw part of his paws and won't lay all the way down. I think he might have been hurting so that's why he didn't go all the way down, instead he hovered. Who knows. :/
> 
> ...


 

Heres what the PSA 2 OB routine looked like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkSZ-de2hrc

We failed back to work.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

kerry engels said:


> Heres what the PSA 2 OB routine looked like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkSZ-de2hrc
> 
> We failed back to work.


You did very well Kerry, that's crazy hard. We will get it next time!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kerry engels said:


> Heres what the PSA 2 OB routine looked like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkSZ-de2hrc
> 
> We failed back to work.


WTF did he fail for?


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## Dominic Rozzi (Aug 2, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> WTF did he fail for?


looking at it quickly the dog and handler have the potential to pass---it looks like to me the heeling was not fluid, the turns need work, he missed the second jump, on the recall and down he was very slow and on the retrieve --the handler should get the item before he drops it and although i couldn't hear ---i am thinking there were multiple commands on some of the exercises


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## Dominic Rozzi (Aug 2, 2009)

Dominic Rozzi said:


> looking at it quickly the dog and handler have the potential to pass---it looks like to me the heeling was not fluid, the turns need work, he missed the second jump, on the recall and down he was very slow and on the retrieve --the handler should get the item before he drops it and although i couldn't hear ---i am thinking there were multiple commands on some of the exercises



also big congrats to the texas group for some nice numbers-- and to everyone who helped---to all who hit the field and to the greg, jonathan ( apprentice judge) jeff and the decoys for a job well done---


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Dominic Rozzi said:


> looking at it quickly the dog and handler have the potential to pass---it looks like to me the heeling was not fluid, the turns need work, he missed the second jump, on the recall and down he was very slow and on the retrieve --the handler should get the item before he drops it and although i couldn't hear ---i am thinking there were multiple commands on some of the exercises


 
You pretty much nailed it \\/ We have lots of work to do before the next attempt.


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## Dominic Rozzi (Aug 2, 2009)

kerry engels said:


> You pretty much nailed it \\/ We have lots of work to do before the next attempt.


 good luck to you i think you two will be fine


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kerry engels said:


> You pretty much nailed it \\/ We have lots of work to do before the next attempt.


Kerry,

You can keep PSA if that was a failing performance.
How many dogs passed at the trial?
Two words for you..........................Mondio Ring


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kerry,
> 
> You can keep PSA if that was a failing performance.
> How many dogs passed at the trial?
> Two words for you..........................Mondio Ring


Does this mean you think PSA looks harder to pass than mondio? I ask because I haven't seen a mondio trial yet, and can't see this video.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Does this mean you think PSA looks harder to pass than mondio? I ask because I haven't seen a mondio trial yet, and can't see this video.


Definitely harder to pass, but not because the exercises or scenarios are that much harder. The judging is crazy and some of the decoys seem to have more macho attitude then talent :-(


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Definitely harder to pass, but not because the exercises or scenarios are that much harder. The judging is crazy and some of the decoys seem to have more macho attitude then talent :-(


Harder than mondio, got it. 

What did you see though. Can you articulate what was macho in the decoys and crazy in the judge?


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Harder than mondio, got it.
> 
> What did you see though. Can you articulate what was macho in the decoys and crazy in the judge?



I'd love to know, as well.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

kerry engels said:


> Heres what the PSA 2 OB routine looked like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkSZ-de2hrc
> 
> We failed back to work.


Kudos to you, Kerry.. great performance and I am sure you'll pass with no troubles next time! 



*
Trail recap moved over here:*
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f37/dallas-psa-trial-recap-25401/


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Harder than mondio, got it.
> 
> What did you see though. Can you articulate what was macho in the decoys and crazy in the judge?



You need to see the video. There were some mistakes, but failing?
No way in hell. If people like PSA they're welcome to it. If any sane sport person can look at the video and call that a failure. I question their sanity.


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

Oh Thomas the ever present hater , please impress me with your knowledge that must come from your overwhelming experience with PSA that allows such a statement


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> You need to see the video. There were some mistakes, but failing?
> No way in hell. If people like PSA they're welcome to it. If any sane sport person can look at the video and call that a failure. I question their sanity.


I think mondio is probably a pretty good sport. With standards and stress etc. I have seen some of the exercises trained, so I can specifically back that up.

I can articulate.

If you can articulate crazy and macho, but can't give specifics, then I question your sanity. You are insane. Crazy.

Again. Just kidding. 

What do you see that makes it not a failure? The sport does require control and the dog to perform to standards. What's macho about the decoys and crazy about the judging?


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Britney Pelletier said:


> Kudos to you, Kerry.. great performance and I am sure you'll pass with no troubles next time!


 
Thanks, I like PSA the way it is. If it was easy to earn a PSA2 title then it wouldn't mean much. I think the Judge and Decoys did a great job. We will be back! :-D


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

kerry engels said:


> Thanks, I like PSA the way it is. If it was easy to earn a PSA2 title then it wouldn't mean much. I think the Judge and Decoys did a great job. We will be back! :-D


:mrgreen:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

kerry engels said:


> Thanks, I like PSA the way it is. If it was easy to earn a PSA2 title then it wouldn't mean much. I think the Judge and Decoys did a great job. We will be back! :-D


 
Congrats on your attempt, and your point of view. Without even seeing the video, I am sure you'll get it at some point. 

I don't know if it was the same club hosting, but I went to a trial down there, and it was terrific. Good food and lots of support from club members that were involved in other sports, and just supporting PSA..


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Congrats on your attempt, and your point of view. Without even seeing the video, I am sure you'll get it at some point.
> 
> I don't know if it was the same club hosting, but I went to a trial down there, and it was terrific. Good food and lots of support from club members that were involved in other sports, and just supporting PSA..


 
Thanks.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

JOE SAMSON JR said:


> Oh Thomas the ever present hater , please impress me with your knowledge that must come from your overwhelming experience with PSA that allows such a statement


NO interest in impressing you Joe. All I have to do is look at the video and look at the pass rate. I tried PSA ~ 10 years ago with a SchH III female. I thought it was dominated by PPD types then with ridiculous scenarios, uneven judging and inconsistent helper
work (all pressure and yelling, little finesse) The only thing that's changed is there aren't as many bully breeds now. I don't care enough about PSA to hate it. I gave an opinion of the video, nothing more.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> NO interest in impressing you Joe. All I have to do is look at the video and look at the pass rate. I tried PSA ~ 10 years ago with a SchH III female. I thought it was dominated by PPD types then with ridiculous scenarios, uneven judging and inconsistent helper
> work (all pressure and yelling, little finesse) The only thing that's changed is there aren't as many bully breeds now. I don't care enough about PSA to hate it. I gave an opinion of the video, nothing more.


So you didn't pass?


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## Dominic Rozzi (Aug 2, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> NO interest in impressing you Joe. All I have to do is look at the video and look at the pass rate. I tried PSA ~ 10 years ago with a SchH III female. I thought it was dominated by PPD types then with ridiculous scenarios, uneven judging and inconsistent helper
> work (all pressure and yelling, little finesse) The only thing that's changed is there aren't as many bully breeds now. I don't care enough about PSA to hate it. I gave an opinion of the video, nothing more.


unfortunately you tried it ten years ago and there has been some things are the same and there has been some changes,in any sport that is growing like psa is there are growing pains, the decoys are better prepared and safer i think then they used to be with the increase of dogs that cross over they are better versed in legs then they used to be and there is a certificate for arm dogs that want to give it a try---there are quite a few bullys and molosser types in the sport and doing quite well i don't recall how many were in the sport ten years ago to be truthful , i think the sport like others are dominated by a certain breeds ---and i'll say there are more women achieving great scores and results and more everyday people looking for a sport to do with their dogs then ever before---although there are police officers and their dogs involved i would say that it is by no means dominated by ppd types...thomas when i get the results i will post them if you are still interested to see the ratio but usually if there are that many dogs entered you will be top heavy in the pdc's and 1's so your success rate might be lower ..but i think awhile ago that routine might of passed in the 1"s --maybe not, but with the changes and what the judges now look for the routine fell short---but i don't know the score but i wouldn't think by much

and like i said earlier---he will be fine if he addresses those issues just my opinions


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> So you didn't pass?


Not passing isn't a problem.
Not having a chance to pass is.
Give PSA a try if you want Dave. Then you'd have your own experience to make a judgement.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Not passing isn't a problem.
> Not having a chance to pass is.
> Give PSA a try if you want Dave. Then you'd have your own experience to make a judgement.


Thanks for taking the time to answerThomas. I have been around PSA for about 10 years off and on as well as work permits. I have trialed three dogs to PDC and no further. I have seen a lot of people pass PDC, 1,2,3. I think your information and therefore your opinion may be old, and you should come out again. 

I'll pay your entry fee and yearly membership for the trial of your choice if you want to come give it a shot!!!

Take care


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Excellent trial and fun times. We failed PDC OB because Gnash decided to go un-OB on me. Time to reel him in so he gets a chance to bite next time 

Kerry and Odin's performance was phenomenal and a pleasure to watch.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks for taking the time to answerThomas. I have been around PSA for about 10 years off and on as well as work permits. I have trialed three dogs to PDC and no further. I have seen a lot of people pass PDC, 1,2,3. I think your information and therefore your opinion may be old, and you should come out again.
> 
> I'll pay your entry fee and yearly membership for the trial of your choice if you want to come give it a shot!!!
> 
> Take care


Interesting , but probably not possible given what else I've got going on. Where can I find a list of PSA clubs? There was one in Colorado but they weren't planning a trial in 2012. Maybe they've got one planned for 2013, but I don't see anything close on the schedule? If there's a trial in Colorado in 2013 I'll take you up on your offer ;-)


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Interesting , but probably not possible given what else I've got going on. Where can I find a list of PSA clubs? There was one in Colorado but they weren't planning a trial in 2012. Maybe they've got one planned for 2013, but I don't see anything close on the schedule? If there's a trial in Colorado in 2013 I'll take you up on your offer ;-)


 
Try it, you will like it!\\/ http://psak9.org/


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kerry engels said:


> Try it, you will like it!\\/ http://psak9.org/


Kerry,

I'd like to try it (especially if Dave C is paying) but it looks like Centennial Working Dogs in Colorado is no longer listed as a PSA member club (and they still charge $100/month training fees? )
and the nearest closest club is in Lubbock Tx (500+ miles away).
Doesn't look like it's going to work.
Good luck at the next PSA 2 attempt. I would have passed you this time ;-)


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kerry,
> 
> I'd like to try it (especially if Dave C is paying) but it looks like Centennial Working Dogs in Colorado is no longer listed as a PSA member club (and they still charge $100/month training fees? )
> and the nearest closest club is in Lubbock Tx (500+ miles away).
> ...


 
Thanks! Come to our trial next year. I will buy you a barbecue sammich and a funnel cake.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Also interested in hearing how Thomas came up with the terms macho to describe the decoys, and crazy to describe the judges based on watching the video.

You might label the judges crazy, but they are juding based on what the rules are, and the judging requirements, as in any sport.

Maybe it would be better served if you said that the requirements to pass are crazy in your opinion, not that the judges themselves are crazy.

And macho decoys? what are they supposed to be? feminine?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby,

This is what happens when you don't read properly. What I said was "The JUDGING (NOT the judge) is crazy and SOME of the decoys seem to have more macho attitude then talent"
This was a local trial NOT the Nationals or even a Regional.
The dog in question was working under pretty heavy distraction from two decoys. He did ALL the exercises with some minor errors (missed the window jump, dropped the retrieve item) Those are point deductions NOT enough to fail the dog. How many points get deducted for a missed jump or a dropped retrieve? 





Joby Becker said:


> Also interested in hearing how Thomas came up with the terms macho to describe the decoys, and crazy to describe the judges based on watching the video.
> 
> You might label the judges crazy, but they are juding based on what the rules are, and the judging requirements, as in any sport.
> 
> ...


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I didn't see any macho pissing contests going on with any of our decoys. They all did exactly what they were supposed to. In level 1 they are supposed to bring it, it's a test of courage for the dogs. Most dogs would run from pressure like that. Just in my opinion, I like to see a decoy going balls to the wall on my dog. I want to know the dog has what it takes in my eyes. What if a bad guy jumped out of an alley with a hula hoop with steamers on it? What would I do if I didn't train PSA?.... lol kiddin' but I do love this sport.

The upper level scenarios are damn hard. There was one where there are two active decoys in suits on the field, and one guy with no suit standing sideways about 20 yards away. The dog is sent to muzzle attack the plain clothed guy. That seems pretty hard to me, but that's what makes it fun. \\/

Oh and we had homemade funnel cakes at our trial... it doesn't get much better than that. Oh and Dave, you competed in my clubs trial two years ago, same one that hosted this event.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

georgia estes said:


> Oh and we had homemade funnel cakes at our trial... it doesn't get much better than that.


 
\\/ :mrgreen:


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

It was fun, sadly, we failed the PDC, but not super surprising considering we haven't been working as hard as we should. And...in his case, he did break two down's in his enthusiasm!

And holy cow those were good funnel cakes....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

how do you make a funnel cake?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Georgia...did Cobra get his level 1 title or not.

you posted on here,

"Cobra's long down turned into a sit outside of the cones and did some other stuff that cost me my level 1 as well"

but then on Donovan's board, they are saying you passed.

just curious..to keep things accurate.


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> how do you make a funnel cake?


You heat up lots of oil, you put a batter similar to donut batter in a funnel and drizzle it in the oil. Fry it up...then it comes out and gets totally doused in powdered sugar. 
In New England you also put lemon filling, cinnamon and sugar...and other flavors on it as well. They are awesome!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Karen Havins said:


> You heat up lots of oil, you put a batter similar to donut batter in a funnel and drizzle it in the oil. Fry it up...then it comes out and gets totally doused in powdered sugar.
> In New England you also put lemon filling, cinnamon and sugar...and other flavors on it as well. They are awesome!


is this like an elephant ear sort of? and can cinnamon be involved?


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Yes, similar to an elephant ear, but just drizzled and looks like one long drizzle on the plate...covering the plate!
Yes to the Cinnamon


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I plugged up the end of the funnel and filled it with batter. Then I placed the funnel in the hot oil and it melted. What am I doing wrong? ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> What am I doing wrong? ;-)


posting on this thread...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks for living up to my expectations Joby


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what?

you cant make funnel cakes. and hate PSA...lol


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Karen Havins said:


> You heat up lots of oil, you put a batter similar to donut batter in a funnel and drizzle it in the oil. Fry it up...then it comes out and gets totally doused in powdered sugar.
> In New England you also put lemon filling, cinnamon and sugar...and other flavors on it as well. They are awesome!


 That is some good stuff right there Menard!!!!\\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

do you have to use a ring to contain it like i see on youtube in a pan? 
and can you use regular sugar instead of powdered sugar?

I have everything here except a ring and powdered sugar. I have a deep fryer.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> do you have to use a ring to contain it like i see on youtube in a pan?
> and can you use regular sugar instead of powdered sugar?
> 
> I have everything here except a ring and powdered sugar. I have a deep fryer.


 I believe the ring is used so ya can make more than one at a time and think powder sugar is used because it adheres better to the cake. But hell use what ya got and let us know how it goes.:mrgreen:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok..I'd call it a failure, far worse than anyone that failed to pass their PSA levels this week.

I think my problem was that I poured the batter into the fryer from too high of a height, I did not lay it in there gently...and it did not fuse correctly, so I ended up with a bunch of tiny pieces of funnel cake like stuff, and 2 small chunks, many of which were overcooked slightly. overall looks like some crunchy stuff that came from Long John Silvers...with powered sugar on it. The piece in the forefront of the picture was my largest chunk by far.

tasted good enough though ... and I still like the looks of PSA.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

its like anything else takes practice! :-D Most important thing is that is taste good! 



Joby Becker said:


> ok..I'd call it a failure, far worse than anyone that failed to pass their PSA levels this week.
> 
> I think my problem was that I poured the batter into the fryer from too high of a height, I did not lay it in there gently...and it did not fuse correctly, so I ended up with a bunch of tiny pieces of funnel cake like stuff, and 2 small chunks, many of which were overcooked slightly. overall looks like some crunchy stuff that came from Long John Silvers...with powered sugar on it. The piece in the forefront of the picture was my largest chunk by far.
> 
> tasted good enough though ... and I still like the looks of PSA.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Holy shit. I open the last page of this thread only to find that it veered off into the ditch and turned into the Joby Fricken Stewart show. That was kinda bizarre.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Holy shit. I open the last page of this thread only to find that it veered off into the ditch and turned into the Joby Fricken Stewart show. That was kinda bizarre.


really? was it THAT bizarre?


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> ok..I'd call it a failure, far worse than anyone that failed to pass their PSA levels this week.
> 
> I think my problem was that I poured the batter into the fryer from too high of a height, I did not lay it in there gently...and it did not fuse correctly, so I ended up with a bunch of tiny pieces of funnel cake like stuff, and 2 small chunks, many of which were overcooked slightly. overall looks like some crunchy stuff that came from Long John Silvers...with powered sugar on it. The piece in the forefront of the picture was my largest chunk by far.
> 
> tasted good enough though ... and I still like the looks of PSA.


I'd eat it! No one ever said funnel cake had to be pretty :mrgreen:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> really? was it THAT bizarre?


Well if you want to know the truth, I thought it was a little bizarre. Does that make you feel better?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I thought you would be de-sensitized to some of this stuff by now.

but on a more serious note, does anyone know for sure why my funnel cake turned into funnel pieces? was it because I poured it into the fryer from about 7-8 inches above the oil? that is my guess


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I thought you would be de-sensitized to some of this stuff by now.


I don't respond that well to training.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

To fast a pour and to high of a temp on the oil


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> To fast a pour and to high of a temp on the oil


THANK YOU JAKE, I will practice and attempt again for the next trial


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

kerry engels said:


> Heres what the PSA 2 OB routine looked like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkSZ-de2hrc
> 
> We failed back to work.


WOWWWWW!!!!! Gotta LOVE PSA. That called for some serious distraction/control and scenario training. I'm curious. Who judged? Anyway, thanks for posting the video. Good luck to you and Odin on the next one.


T

Oh, PS, Thomas, quit hatin. You gotta admire the training that goes into this. Wait until you see some of the PSA 3 distance/control stuff.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> WOWWWWW!!!!! Gotta LOVE PSA. That called for some serious distraction/control and scenario training. I'm curious. Who judged? Anyway, thanks for posting the video. Good luck to you and Odin on the next one.
> 
> 
> T
> ...


Never mind. I looked. Just who I expected.

T


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

Who did you expect ?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

JOE SAMSON JR said:


> Who did you expect ?


Bradshaw. Have only seen a few trials. His scenarios stand out for the distraction element. Will be interesting to see more and compare. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

n/m disregard


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> the scenarios are pre-written, and chosen from a list, no matter who is judging. what do you mean his scenarios stand out, and that you want to compare? just curious.


Its been over a year since I looked but it seems the scenarios could have certain elements or variations. Even here, I'm not sure who ended up judging--Greg Wiliams or Bradshaw. It just comes down to different trials under different judges. I haven't seen trials since the re-vamp. Joby, its just interesting to see how it varies, even if slightly from judge to judge. Read the rules, and you tell me if there is room for variations from judge to judge: http://psak9.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2010-2011-PSA-Rulebook.pdf. These were the 2010-2011 rules. Don't know if these have been updated.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its been over a year since I looked but it seems the scenarios could have certain elements or variations. Even here, I'm not sure who ended up judging--Greg Wiliams or Bradshaw. It just comes down to different trials under different judges. I haven't seen trials since the re-vamp. Joby, its just interesting to see how it varies, even if slightly from judge to judge. Read the rules, and you tell me if there is room for variations from judge to judge: http://psak9.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2010-2011-PSA-Rulebook.pdf. These were the 2010-2011 rules. Don't know if these have been updated.
> 
> T


yes, that is why I erased my post within 5 seconds of posting it, because I wanted to make sure what I was saying was accurate and was going to look into it more, since I realized after I said it, that it might not be as accurate as I thought it was.

Kudos to you for beating me to that punch, and for quoting me faster than anyone else ever has on here before. I give credit where it is due...


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> is this like an elephant ear sort of? and can cinnamon be involved?


Ahhhhh, good old fellow Illinoian, elephant ears, god I miss them. But yes, it's pretty much the same thing, just presented differently.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh, PS, Thomas, quit hatin. You gotta admire the training that goes into this. Wait until you see some of the PSA 3 distance/control stuff.


Good Grief, I liked and was impressed by the dog and handling.
I thought the judging was exceptionally nit picky and harsh.
I would have passed the dog with mid 80's at least.

I'm amused when people post videos on PUBLIC forums and then bitch and moan about "Hating" if you don't happen to agree with them. What's even more amusing is when someone other then the actual handler bitches and moans about "hating". I'm not interested in doing PSA for reasons previously stated. If you are, knock yourself out. I enjoy IPO.
I don't care if you don't do it. Go train your dog in "something"


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Good Grief, I liked and was impressed by the dog and handling.
> I thought the judging was exceptionally nit picky and harsh.
> I would have passed the dog with mid 80's at least.
> 
> ...


Hi Thomas, I thought Greg did an excellent job, he is tough but consistent like that with everybody, PSA gave him a standard to judge for that level and Kerry did not reach that standard so he failed, if I was a judge I would have failed him too, PSA is hard, but if you don't earn it you don't get it, they are not going to hand out titles, it might not be a popular sport, but I love it, it is such a challenge at the upper level, especially in level 3 where everything is surprise scenarios, you really have to think fast and make a right decisions in order to pass, it is a challenge for both handler and dog, I hope Kerry has the Protection part on video, he nailed the surprise scenario and it was awesome, it is a directional send, there were a passive sitting decoy on a chair, another decoy was about 20 feet away, he has to send his dog to the passive sitting decoy, as he send the dog, the active decoy ran away behind the sitting decoy and his dog just nailed the sitting decoy and almost knock him off the chair, man that was pretty good and hard,most dog would have gone after the running decoy, Kerry should be proud, he is the first time handler and his dog is only 2 years old, I'm sure with better OB he will get his level 2 tittle in the near future.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't have any video of the protection But I have some pics:-D The Decoys catch from the chair was amazing!


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)




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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Thomas I find it absolutely incredible that you are basing all of your opinions about PSA on a trial that you went to 10 years ago when the sport was in it's infancy. Every sport has it's own intricacies, which is what makes that sport world so diverse and well rounded. I love the precision of of IPO OB, the technical training of FR, the variations of MR, and the pressure based surprise of the upper levels of PSA. What I don't understand is the need for anyone to bash another sport because a dislike of how they do things, or as in your case, a complete lack of understanding of a sport. 

It is true that in the beginning of PSA there was a look and feel of backyard PPD training, but that is certainly not the case today. The sport has evolved well past that, even though there are some people who are still stuck in the past, normally those who have no actual involvement in the sport. The lower levels have been completely standardized so that you know what to expect and to make the judging consistent across the board. The ideal picture for OB is IPO precision with escalating levels of distraction as you make it through the levels. I consider the PSA III OB routine pretty much a MR Defense of Handler with basic OB commands thrown in throughout. The bite work focus on pressure based exercises in the lower levels and then precision and control in the upper levels. This is backwards of all other sports, where you teach the technique and control the gradually add pressure through the levels. Directionals, passive bites, muzzle work, area searches, call off, redirects, escorts, etc. all done in different scenarios and combinations is what it takes to be successful in the upper levels. 

The comments referring to the "macho" attitude of the decoys just shows a total lack of knowledge. In every sport the decoy has a specific set of guidelines and manner in which they work dogs in a trial. Each sport has a required skill set and decoys who are successful in those skill sets. The decoys job is to test the dog for the judge within the rules set before them. In PSA, the ability to safely catch a dog in many different scenarios and situations is first and foremost. Then, the ability to apply pressure onto the dog is what makes or breaks a PSA decoy in certification. There are many different ways to put pressure on a dog as we all know. I will use my club as an example. We have 4, soon to be 5, certified PSA decoys in our club. Three of use are also Level I FR decoys, two are IPO helpers, and in the near future three of us hope to attain our Level I MR decoy certs. When it comes to PSA, we have some who are not the fastest but have the ability to properly reads dogs and find the holes in their training and exploit those holes. We have some that are great in the handler attacks with the distractions. And I personally feel that I bring a speed that most dogs are not used to seeing. There is no my dick is bigger contest, no look how many dogs I ran, no attitude of my self worth as a decoy is being the biggest and baddest. This is the attitude of the majority of decoys in PSA. It is our job to test the dogs in a trial. When you step on the field as a competitor, you and your TD have decided that your dog is ready for the task at hand and if not, shame on you for not being prepared and putting you dog in that situation. 

Also I have never understood the whole idea of, well it is just a club trial so things should be made easier. This is one of the major issues I see with all dog sports. If you are playing any sport, the rules don't change because it is a regular season game or get more stringent because it is a championship. The rules are the rules and should be strictly judged at all times. By not having this mind set, we are cheapening every title earned at a club trial, plain and simple. I am extremely competitive and am more critical of myself and my training/decoy work than anyone else will ever be. When I step on the field, I don't want anything to put a cloud of suspicion of the titles earned or the work that I do. The need to make everyone feel good about themselves and pass out what has almost become participation titles have weakened many a sport and lessened the achievements of those of us who hold a higher standard for our sport and our dogs. 

You are right that by putting a video up on the internet makes it free game to any and all who have an opinion. You are free to critcize it, but please have a basic understanding of what you are looking before you make asinine comments which only make you look like an uneducated dick with a stick up your ass over a sport you don't know anything about. IPO is not my cup of tea and I know nothing about how things are judged or what is expected. Therefore I am not going to do anything but congratulate those who participate and support my fellow working dog enthusiast. 

Khoi and his club put on a great trial. He put 50 dogs on the field without a hitch and his hospitality towards the decoys and judge was fantastic. Thanks for having me out, congrats to all who competed, congrats for the titles earned, and congrats for an incredibly successful trial.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey Khoi

Is there any video of a passing level II Ob routine? I'd like to see what it took to pass. When I tried a PDC the pass rate was ~ 8%
I'm not as rich as you and Kerry, I can't afford to enter 10-12 trials
for a PSA I title 
Best wishes for your club and future trials and titles


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF5iE--aZ-c&list=UUpt98r1JA0n6I0a9PPRepAQ&index=13

Thomas you don't have to be rich, just know the rules and expectations for a sport.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Here is the Protection of the same dog and trial, passing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SKdEwxPsJ8&list=UUpt98r1JA0n6I0a9PPRepAQ&index=12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWfVrn4mi9E&list=UUpt98r1JA0n6I0a9PPRepAQ&index=11


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jake,

Thanks for posting the Xander videos. I could do something like that. Nice to hear that PSA has evolved and standardized the scenarios. Are you trying to tell me that they don't use high pressure water hoses, weed wackers and chain saws as distractions anymore?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

In the level 3s yes but how is that any different than your beloved MR having blowup halloween and christmas decorations.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Less potential for dog injury from decorations and hula hoops then from high pressure hoses and air horns blown in the dogs ear. Maybe things haven't changed that much after all? Just moved to the higher levels.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Joby I did not get my title, I had enough points to go into protection so I did it but we failed OB by 5 points.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> Joby I did not get my title, I had enough points to go into protection so I did it but we failed OB by 5 points.


it is ok  I cant make funnel cakes....YET!!!

was just curious, as things got a little twisted on a couple other boards...

congrats on the performances and good luck in the future...looks like it was a great event as well.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Next time Georgia atleast you went and trialed!

Joby do a Youtube searches on funnel cakes... resubmit picture!! :-D


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

There are no high pressure hoses or air horns. Water out of an everyday house hose sometimes. When any type of motorized device is used all the moving parts are disabled.

I am glad that you have found your faults in the sport again. Care to man up and address any of the other points in my post discrediting your previous disparaging remarks?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

I liked the videos of Zander thanks for sharing...nice team!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> There are no high pressure hoses or air horns. Water out of an everyday house hose sometimes. When any type of motorized device is used all the moving parts are disabled.
> 
> I am glad that you have found your faults in the sport again. Care to man up and address any of the other points in my post discrediting your previous disparaging remarks?


"Man up" really Jake?
No I choose not to address the personal attacks in your previous post or to justify my opinion of PSA.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Complete copout Thomas. I guess calling someone on their uneducated comments and making them actually defend what they say are personal attacks. You have slowly become the new Jeff of this forum. Lots of negativity and always preaching MR as the greatest thing of all and bashing every other sport. You like to point out every fault in any video that is put up, but when people get sick of it and post your MR trial you get all up in arms and cry foul. There have been very few times that I have ever stepped in when people are being negative or critical but for me you crossed the line. Hope you are able to defend yourself with an actual responses verses just shutting down.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> yes, that is why I erased my post within 5 seconds of posting it, because I wanted to make sure what I was saying was accurate and was going to look into it more, since I realized after I said it, that it might not be as accurate as I thought it was.
> 
> Kudos to you for beating me to that punch, and for quoting me faster than anyone else ever has on here before. I give credit where it is due...


I bet we were doing an accuracy check at the same time. 

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jake,

Not shutting down, just ignoring your attempt to interrogate me.


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

Thomas just saw your post , it would take more than you running your mouth about something on the Internet to get me bitchn about anything . I am very new at this and don't understand where you are coming from on PSA my experience is just like yours with PSA brief and yours is over 10 years old and tainted with failure so i guess i will take advantage of the Nice weather and go work my dog and leave you to make these feeble attempts to soothe your fragile ego by taking pot shots at someone else' hard work


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jake,
> 
> Not shutting down, just ignoring your attempt to interrogate me.


Thomas.


I saw it ten or eleven years ago, and it doesn't appear much different to me now. I know the judging is a little more standardized, 1 and 2 pattern is made for quick field set up, no TC now and a few other things. I think you either have to like it for what it is or not. If you do, you do, if you don't, you don't.


I wish there was a club closer to you. I like promoting the sport, and am glad you accepted my offer. Maybe one day you can see first hand it first hand, again.


Take care!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey Dave,

Agreed, you like a sport or you don't. At this point I have three full time (2 Dobermanns and a GSD) and one semi retired (Dutch Shepherd) doing IPO, Mondio Ring and K9 Nose Work. I got the 2nd MR I leg on my DS and an IPO I and II on my male Dobermann and a K9NW I on my female Dobermann and BH's on my male GSD and female Dobermann (at the same trial) this year. If there was a PSA club close by I could probably cross train MR and PSA without a lot of trouble. There isn't, so I'll concentrate on what's available to me. I'm certainly not going to waste a lot of energy on the rantings of someone with NO titles or much experience in any sport. If you're ever traveling through Colorado stop by and try to steal my popcorn ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I got the 2nd MR I leg on my DS. ... I could probably cross train MR and PSA without a lot of trouble.


any video of the second leg? if it was anything like the first, I do not see it being such an easy task to cross train and compete in PSA successfully.

the second leg with Belatu? was there a vast difference or something over the first leg? shown below? 

I know I dont compete in either sport, but I do see a huge difference in what is considered a passing performance when I watch videos, and attend PSA trials.

http://vimeo.com/24302445


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

i would rather have some experience while having fun learning with an open mind and than be in your shoes buddy rather pathetic


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> Agreed, you like a sport or you don't. At this point I have three full time (2 Dobermanns and a GSD) and one semi retired (Dutch Shepherd) doing IPO, Mondio Ring and K9 Nose Work. I got the 2nd MR I leg on my DS and an IPO I and II on my male Dobermann and a K9NW I on my female Dobermann and BH's on my male GSD and female Dobermann (at the same trial) this year. If there was a PSA club close by I could probably cross train MR and PSA without a lot of trouble. There isn't, so I'll concentrate on what's available to me. I'm certainly not going to waste a lot of energy on the rantings of someone with NO titles or much experience in any sport. If you're ever traveling through Colorado stop by and try to steal my popcorn ;-)


Not a chance, mister. If you do decide to get ready for a PDC and a 1, let me know. you'd probably pass a PDC with no training, but I can give you a lot of pointers for the one. two and higher, I am not your guy.

I really do hope you'll come out at some point. You seem to enjoy your dogs, and you get out and trial. Should be a good addition to PSA.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

JOE SAMSON JR said:


> i would rather have some experience while having fun learning with an open mind and than be in your shoes buddy rather pathetic


You're NOT my buddy and I have no interest in your opinions on anything. I'm having fun and so are my dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> any video of the second leg? if it was anything like the first, I do not see it being such an easy task to cross train and compete in PSA successfully.
> 
> the second leg with Belatu? was there a vast difference or something over the first leg? shown below?
> 
> ...


Belatu got his first passing MR I leg and only missed the second leg by 3 points. I'm very happy with that performance.
There is probably some video of the second passing leg somewhere but it's not important to me to locate. Belatu is now a MR I end of story for me. I never claimed to be a super trainer or to need or want to be number one. I feel sorry for dogs owned by people that think any sport is more important then the dog.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> I feel sorry for dogs owned by people that think any sport is more important then the dog.


I disagree with you. My dogs have a good life. Sport is what gives them a purpose. If not for sport they would be fat lazy and So would I


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

kerry engels said:


> Heres what the PSA 2 OB routine looked like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkSZ-de2hrc
> 
> We failed back to work.


this is my first time seeing a PSA OB routine ... wow. that doesn't look easy! i thought you did great


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Tyree Johnson said:


> this is my first time seeing a PSA OB routine ... wow. that doesn't look easy! i thought you did great


 
Thanks, the dog wants to bite, and the Decoys give him a good opportunity to do just that.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bradshaw. Have only seen a few trials. His scenarios stand out for the distraction element. Will be interesting to see more and compare.
> 
> T


Jerry didn't actually judge this trial.. he was in Taiwan. 


PS. for those that are not familiar, the level 2's have been "standardized" as far as their routines are concerned for the past few years. The OB is a set pattern and the bitework scenarios are always the same, except for the one surprise scenario that is the judge's discretion to create under the guidelines of what type of distractions/scenarios are allowable for that particular level.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I disagree with you. My dogs have a good life. Sport is what gives them a purpose. If not for sport they would be fat lazy and So would I


Ditto! and mine would drive me nutso.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

passing PSA3 obedience routine.. actually one of the highest passing scores ever. 98/100.

Guess it's not impossible! I was there for this trial and last I knew, her dog didn't lose her hearing or have her limbs cut off from the distractions 

http://youtu.be/mh5o3A0IwMs


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

another passing PSA3 OB routine.. 88/100.

http://youtu.be/rxrQCe_anR0

It was beautiful to watch. Even in the upper levels, attentive heeling is key, which I'm sure Kerry got dinged quite a bit for.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Tom, and I do have first hand experience going to and training at a "PSA" club(I dont think they are official, cause I dont see them listed on the PSA site). There was no OB on these dogs, every dog got flanked just to piss it off and make it bite,none outed on command and had to be choked off the bite, and the bigger these dogs were , the better,even if it was totally out of the breed standard. I am sure not all PSA clubs are like this, but, seems like the concensus says a lot are,and it is a shame, cause the concept of PSA is great, but some of the people it is attracting is really giving it a bad rap.


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

Which club was this ?


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Not gonna name names.....and it sucks cause 2 womenI highly respect train in PSA and know they arent like that with their dogs


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Unfortunately, I have to agree with Tom, and I do have first hand experience going to and training at a "PSA" club(I dont think they are official, cause I dont see them listed on the PSA site). There was no OB on these dogs, every dog got flanked just to piss it off and make it bite,none outed on command and had to be choked off the bite, and the bigger these dogs were , the better,even if it was totally out of the breed standard. I am sure not all PSA clubs are like this, but, seems like the concensus says a lot are,and it is a shame, cause the concept of PSA is great, but some of the people it is attracting is really giving it a bad rap.


 
Dogs like you describe won't make it through a entry level PDC. PSA is all about control under distraction, If dog bites in OB you will fail. If dog does not out in 3 commands you will fail.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Yea, I know Kerry, none of the dogs are titled in anything. Also know an AB at ur trial went after a judge and had to be beaten off with his clipboard. Not good.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Yea, I know Kerry, none of the dogs are titled in anything. Also know an AB at ur trial went after a judge and had to be beaten off with his clipboard. Not good.


 
That situation could happen in any dog sport were the dog is ever "off leash" for any amount of time. Short of Judges and Stewards wearing a bite suit at all times I don't know what else could be done. I think Judging from a distance from behind a fence would be difficult.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

kerry engels said:


> Dogs like you describe won't make it through a entry level PDC. PSA is all about control under distraction, If dog bites in OB you will fail. If dog does not out in 3 commands you will fail.


Kerry,

Not everyone that claims to be training for PSA will ever trial for much less pass a PDC and you can get temporary control (enough to get through a trial) with heavy compulsion and/or an E-collar.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kerry,
> 
> Not everyone that claims to be training for PSA will ever trial for much less pass a PDC and you can get temporary control (enough to get through a trial) with heavy compulsion and/or an E-collar.


 
Very true,and it's a lot harder when they take away your E-collar and prong.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kerry,
> 
> Not everyone that claims to be training for PSA will ever trial for much less pass a PDC and you can get temporary control (enough to get through a trial) with heavy compulsion and/or an E-collar.


exactly. 

I can also add in about the egotistical decoys in PSA....one decoy in yet another club was balsy enough to tell me that , "no one else in the world trains like that," in reference to another trainer's methods.....

for whatever reason, PSA is attracting some not so ethical people....y'all might want to look into why and try to change that so that some of those in the dog sport world won't look at PSA so negatively, JMHO


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> exactly.
> 
> I can also add in about the egotistical decoys in PSA....one decoy in yet another club was balsy enough to tell me that , "no one else in the world trains like that," in reference to another trainer's methods.....
> 
> for whatever reason, PSA is attracting some not so ethical people....y'all might want to look into why and try to change that so that some of those in the dog sport world won't look at PSA so negatively, JMHO


 
Duly noted, this has not been my experience in the two years I have been involved in PSA, and that experience is all I can accurately comment on.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I can also add in about the egotistical decoys in PSA....one decoy in yet another club was balsy enough to tell me that , "no one else in the world trains like that," in reference to another trainer's methods.....


That is ballsy? This seems to be the norm in dog sports and dog training ](*,)


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I am sure not all PSA clubs are like this, but, seems like the concensus says a lot are,and it is a shame, cause the concept of PSA is great, but some of the people it is attracting is really giving it a bad rap.


con·sen·sus 
*/kənˈsensəs/*

Noun:
1. General agreement.
2. An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole

So what "consensus" would this be?


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> That is ballsy? This seems to be the norm in dog sports and dog training ](*,)


lol.. seriously. 

Welcome to the dog sport world! 

If you're concerned with politics and "people giving sports a bad rap", then I'd highly suggest you don't participate in ANY dog sport.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> for whatever reason, PSA is attracting some not so ethical people....y'all might want to look into why and try to change that so that some of those in the dog sport world won't look at PSA so negatively, JMHO


I'm sorry that this is your perspective Maureen, but that is the dog sport world. Period. 

The governing organizations cannot police the conduct of every single person or club who has paid for a membership. If things become unethical, completely unprofessional, inhumane, abusive, etc.. then those issues should be brought directly to the organization. Not bitched about on a public message board. If it is that much of a concern, then it would get voiced where it appropriately should. Otherwise, nothing can be done about it. 

I have seen more than a fair share of individuals (some considered "top" trainers/handlers) in Schutzhund and Ringsport that have abused/starved/neglected/killed either their own dogs or dogs that belonged to other people, yet they are still active members of their respective sport community and the vast majority of membership does not choose to use those individuals as reflections of the sports as a whole.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> That is ballsy? This seems to be the norm in dog sports and dog training ](*,)


Doesn't make it right now does it? Everyone has differences in opinions and people need to learn to respect one another's.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Doesn't make it right now does it? Everyone has differences in opinions and people need to learn to respect one another's.


:-k ......Not looking at right or wrong just strong opinions from competitve "dog people" ...I rather say toughen up who cares what others think or say as long as I feel my TD and helper are doing the right thing for me and my dog.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Britney Pelletier said:


> lol.. seriously.
> 
> Welcome to the dog sport world!
> 
> If you're concerned with politics and "people giving sports a bad rap", then I'd highly suggest you don't participate in ANY dog sport.


 
HEY!!!!! =; =; =; 

I didn't infer that!!! :???:


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

I usually dont care what others say or think, I only make judgements based on my own first hand experiences....but when your own experiences match what others have told you....you have to stop and think. Thank God my dog didnt get screwed up from this AH, but a friend's dog now has issues from this same person. People that are newer to dog sports are easily influenced and dont know right from wrong and are easily fed and eat up their BS.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

NONSENSE, name ONE dog that you have personal knowledge of that has died as a result of abuse from its owner/handler.
Much less you've "seen a fair share"
You complain if anyone says anything negative about PSA, but you throw out a ridiculous statement (below) about Schutzhund and Ring :-(



Britney Pelletier said:


> I have seen more than a fair share of individuals (some considered "top" trainers/handlers) in Schutzhund and Ringsport that have abused/starved/neglected/killed either their own dogs or dogs that belonged to other people, yet they are still active members of their respective sport community and the vast majority of membership does not choose to use those individuals as reflections of the sports as a whole.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> NONSENSE, name ONE dog that you have personal knowledge of that has died as a result of abuse from its owner/handler.
> Much less you've "seen a fair share"
> You complain if anyone says anything negative about PSA, but you throw out a ridiculous statement (below) about Schutzhund and Ring :-(


I can name a couple dogs that died an others that were severly starved an/or neglected from "fr" and "ipo" trainers doing board and trains..as well as PP or even OB.. you think this shyt dont happen????


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Then name one Joby. ONE dog Schutzhund or Ring dog that died as a result of abuse from it's owner trainer. Not an allegation of a board and train death.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Then name one Joby. ONE dog Schutzhund or Ring dog that died as a result of abuse from it's owner trainer. Not an allegation of a board and train death.


abuse, neglect, or negligence? or any?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> abuse, neglect, or negligence? or any?


Britney made the statement:


"I have seen more than a fair share of individuals (some considered "top" trainers/handlers) in Schutzhund and Ringsport that have abused/starved/neglected/killed either their own dogs or dogs that belonged to other people, yet they are still active members of their respective sport community and the vast majority of membership does not choose to use those individuals as reflections of the sports as a whole."

I"m looking for ONE name from either of you of a "top trainer or handler" that has abused/starved/neglected/killed either their own dogs or dogs that belonged to other people" 
__________________


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Britney made the statement:
> 
> 
> "I have seen more than a fair share of individuals (some considered "top" trainers/handlers) in Schutzhund and Ringsport that have abused/starved/neglected/killed either their own dogs or dogs that belonged to other people, yet they are still active members of their respective sport community and the vast majority of membership does not choose to use those individuals as reflections of the sports as a whole."
> ...


what is top level? top in a geograhpical area? top in a country? or what..

tops in the country tops in the area...

what about HEX?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> what is top level? top in a geograhpical area? top in a country? or what..
> 
> tops in the country tops in the area...
> 
> what about HEX?


You'll have to ask Britney what she meant.

RE: Hex

Either ran over by a truck cause his owner let him out close to the road if you believe the police reports

OR

Stolen and murdered if you believe his owner


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> You'll have to ask Britney what she meant.
> 
> RE: Hex
> 
> ...


sounds like neglect to me..and I already know what YOU believe. case closed.


----------



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Unfortunately, I have to agree with Tom, and I do have first hand experience going to and training at a "PSA" club(I dont think they are official, cause I dont see them listed on the PSA site). There was no OB on these dogs, every dog got flanked just to piss it off and make it bite,none outed on command and had to be choked off the bite, and the bigger these dogs were , the better,even if it was totally out of the breed standard. I am sure not all PSA clubs are like this, but, seems like the concensus says a lot are,and it is a shame, cause the concept of PSA is great, but some of the people it is attracting is really giving it a bad rap.



Who is this woman who lives 10 miles from me who has this CONSENSUS? Let me get this straight, you went out and frolicked with some no name club, who is not PSA sanctioned, who flanked some dogs and now the 'consensus' is that we are 'attracting the wrong people'. I've got news for you, every sport has some ghetto morons in it who don't know what they're doing who gather 'round and 'train' and have big dick contests with each other over whose dog is the meanest. Since you live so close, I'd love to have you visit my club, meet me, and see people with titles in not only PSA, but Mondio, and SchH train and tell me just what kind of people PSA attracts.


----------



## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Then name one Joby. ONE dog Schutzhund or Ring dog that died as a result of abuse from it's owner trainer. Not an allegation of a board and train death.


Not an allegation. I have personal, first hand knowledge of it. However, it is not my place to name names.. just as Maureen chooses not to identify who the people or person(s) are that are "giving PSA such a bad name".. 

The difference is, I don't expect NARA, UScA, ARF or DVG to "do something about it" and I don't judge the sports as a whole based on the conduct of a few individuals. 

I'm even so crazy I compete with my dogs in IPO! gasp.


----------



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Mods, can we lock this thread, it was just supposed to talk about a recap of the trial and show some fun videos of the OB and bite work not turn into WW3 with the PSA haters. If anyone has anything to talk about with me they can PM me.



*
Note:*
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f37/dallas-psa-trial-recap-25401/


----------



## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I can name a couple dogs that died an others that were severly starved an/or neglected from "fr" and "ipo" trainers doing board and trains..as well as PP or even OB.. you think this shyt dont happen????


Ditto.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have a close friend that boarded a couple dogs with a well know FR guy in my area...both came back over 20 lbs underweight, meaciated. one with a tail amputation from a fight. tail was finally amputated after months of the dog chewing it off..

a SCH guy, boarded some dogs that DISAPPEARED completely, without explanation..after allegations of neglect and abuse.

it is my belief that some of the worst dog people alive are people that are working dog people. based on numerous experiences, and stories..


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

georgia estes said:


> I we had a crazy number of people enter the trial, it was a ton of fun. I think Katrina is working on the scores and all that jazz right now so they should be available soon. I trialed two dogs, Cobra my mutt and Seven my young dog who is not 2 yet.
> 
> Seven got his PDC but I did not pass Level 1 obedience, we still have some control issues that I am working on fixing. Also my down in motions turned into sit in motions. Today I noticed he has no skin on the dew claw part of his paws and won't lay all the way down. I think he might have been hurting so that's why he didn't go all the way down, instead he hovered. Who knows. :/
> 
> ...



This trial recap thread is now over here:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f37/dallas-psa-trial-recap-25401/#post363948


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Britney Pelletier said:


> Not an allegation. I have personal, first hand knowledge of it. However, it is not my place to name names.. just as Maureen chooses not to identify who the people or person(s) are that are "giving PSA such a bad name"..
> .


An unsubstantiated claim is exactly what an allegation is

Noun
A claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong, typically one made without proof.

You claiming to have "Personal Knowledge" of something doesn't make it fact and I certainly wouldn't name names if I were you (or Jody) either. "PSA haters" have complained about the sport and the way it is run. None of us have accused anyone of abusing and killing dogs or anything like that


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*

Maureen..

I have experience with non-official PSA club..along with unofficial SCH, and FR club

One dog we put together was a regional Champion this year in PSA. 2 were titled in FR, and a few others were titled in IPO.

some dogs in the club were flanked. I was not aware that flanking was such a bad thing in ALL CASES. Although I agree it can be misused..

I remember when you posted a long thread about that foreign guy with the Dogo that you thought was being mistreated...I thought we got past some of this...not all dogs are worked in straight prey and some are worked in defense and occaisionally dogs are flanked or stung with a whip or whatever. and OB is worked on at various stages, depending on the people, the dog, and the program..

PS I still like you as a person very much


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And this thread stays here (moved out of seminar/trials section). Thank you.



Joby Becker said:


> I have a close friend that boarded a couple dogs with a well know FR guy in my area...both came back over 20 lbs underweight, meaciated. one with a tail amputation from a fight. tail was finally amputated after months of the dog chewing it off..
> 
> a SCH guy, boarded some dogs that DISAPPEARED completely, without explanation..after allegations of neglect and abuse.
> 
> it is my belief that some of the worst dog people alive are people that are working dog people. based on numerous experiences, and stories..


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And this thread stays here (moved out of seminar/trials section). Thank you.


 
Ive seen dogs go into boarding and lose weight just due to stress, not neglect.

Are you sure the so called Sch guy didn't "sell" the dog??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Ive seen dogs go into boarding and lose weight just due to stress, not neglect.
> 
> Are you sure the so called Sch guy didn't "sell" the dog??


well there were visitors to the kennel that alerted the owners, and when they inquired about there dogs as concerned owners, they were told the dogs were stolen.

the FR guy gave the dogs back to another friend emaciated, no doubt about it. hip bones and spines poking out everywhere, seen them myself...

I know what you mean though my dog came back 8-10 lbs underweight last time she was boarded, was told she would not eat.. not suprising..

I left for work today, left the dog with the GF, gave her a biscuit, and when I came in the door, she picked it up and ate it...6 hours later...and then scarfed up her meal that was there all along.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I have a close friend that boarded a couple dogs with a well know FR guy in my area...both came back over 20 lbs underweight, meaciated. one with a tail amputation from a fight. tail was finally amputated after months of the dog chewing it off..
> 
> a SCH guy, boarded some dogs that DISAPPEARED completely, without explanation..after allegations of neglect and abuse.
> 
> it is my belief that some of the worst dog people alive are people that are working dog people. based on numerous experiences, and stories..


The statement wasn't that a "well know French Ring guy" or 
"a SCH guy" abused any dog. The statement was that the upper echelon was involved with killing dogs. The statement wasn't "working dog people" it was SchH and French Ring people. I'm not interested in you repeating a story you heard
or something about a PPD "trainer" from the hood or some back woods bull dog trainers. Tell us about your direct and personal knowledge of the "upper echelons" of ANY legitimate
sport (SchH or any Ring sport) abusing or killing any dogs


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*

Sorry Joby, this went above and beyond, and some others that have been there say the same. So yeah, I am a bit beyond the dogo thing you bring up. I have no problems with flanking or compulsion, but this was beyond excessive. Young,green dogs being flanked and having tons of pressure put on them when they were totally not ready for it. My friend's dog now has stick issues from it and will have to be retrained to get over it from it(she took him to a well known trainer for an eval).


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The statement wasn't that a "well know French Ring guy" or
> "a SCH guy" abused any dog. The statement was that the upper echelon was involved with killing dogs. The statement wasn't "working dog people" it was SchH and French Ring people. I'm not interested in you repeating a story you heard
> or something about a PPD "trainer" from the hood or some back woods bull dog trainers. Tell us about your direct and personal knowledge of the "upper echelons" of ANY legitimate
> sport (SchH or any Ring sport) abusing or killing any dogs


i did...HEX..neglected...

Thomas I do not claim to know many, or any TOP upper echelon trainers, never said that.. If you would like to think that no dogs being housed by top people/kennels are ever abused, neglected or die from that, then you are free to do so, I however am a realist, and have to assume it happens, whatever the cause...overheating, whatever.

your fight is obviously with someone else, as I already named a dog from a well known SCH that died of neglect, in which you stated that yourself.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Maureen A Osborn said:


> Sorry Joby, this went above and beyond, and some others that have been there say the same. So yeah, I am a bit beyond the dogo thing you bring up. I have no problems with flanking or compulsion, but this was beyond excessive. Young,green dogs being flanked and having tons of pressure put on them when they were totally not ready for it. My friend's dog now has stick issues from it and will have to be retrained to get over it from it(she took him to a well known trainer for an eval).


sorry to hear this..
but is it really a reflection on PSA?
a yahoo, crappy training group, saying they are a PSA CLUB, when they are not..

what if I said I have seen the exact same thing at an unoffical SCH/IPO club, does that really reflect on the sport of SCH and the honorable competitors/clubs? in the eyes of a realistic, working dog savvy person?

I have seen that, by the way..


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*

well, when people that have been doing dogsport for many years are telling you what PSA is like and then the very first club you go to is like what they told you....its gonna make you think twice. not saying it is a true reflection on PSA, but they formed their opinions from their experiences with the people they knew in PSA.Oh, and like I said, before, 2 women I highly respect have their dogs titled in PSA and I know the dont do that crap with their dogs. I honestly like the concept of PSA, but too many people I know equate PSA with unethical people, and there obviously must be a reason behind this, and that is why I said people may want to take a step back and figure out why some people still feel so negative about PSA.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Maureen A Osborn said:


> well, when people that have been doing dogsport for many years are telling you what PSA is like and then the very first club you go to is like what they told you....its gonna make you think twice. not saying it is a true reflection on PSA, but they formed their opinions from their experiences with the people they knew in PSA.


makes sense to me honestly..

I heard certain things about SCH as well.

First club I went to, the guy was on his knees trying to wave a rag around for a very well trained adult PP type dog, the dog just sat there. was told he would not work, he had low drive...


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Maureen A Osborn said:


> well, when people that have been doing dogsport for many years are telling you what PSA is like and then the very first club you go to is like what they told you....its gonna make you think twice. not saying it is a true reflection on PSA, but they formed their opinions from their experiences with the people they knew in PSA.Oh, and like I said, before, 2 women I highly respect have their dogs titled in PSA and I know the dont do that crap with their dogs. I honestly like the concept of PSA, but too many people I know equate PSA with unethical people, and there obviously must be a reason behind this, and that is why I said people may want to take a step back and figure out why some people still feel so negative about PSA.


You don't have to take a step back, all you have to do is read you post. Separate fact and opinion, and you are all set.

You "heard from people what PSA is like". You "went to a non-PSA club and it was like that". Has nothing to do with PSA from what I can see. Your negative opinion is based on a decoy rebuking someone for a training method.

I am not sorry that adecoy voiced an opinion about training he saw as bad, any more than I am sorry you are voicing your opinion. If I were there I would ask him why he had that opinion, just like I am asking you for facts that support your opinion. This is what makes the world go round.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*

Actually Dave, I've been in contact with a PSA officer and this isnt the first time this person and this club has been brought up to him, so I am quite correct with my observations of them and I will leave it at that, I will not go into it any further.

As far at the decoy's reasoning of his opinion, it was because, "I don't believe in the type of training..........and actually no police or military department in the world or any legit sport program including PSA train that way either".....his own words in quotes, with the ......... to keep the anonymity of trainers involved. That is an egotistical comment, the second part.....I respected the first part, but to add in the second half to attempt to back up your opinion is BS.....I don't agree with/believe in a lot of things, but it doesnt make them right or wrong, just different.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Maureen A Osborn said:


> Actually Dave, I've been in contact with a PSA officer and this isnt the first time this person and this club has been brought up to him, so I am quite correct with my observations of them and I will leave it at that, I will not go into it any further.
> 
> As far at the decoy's reasoning of his opinion, it was because, "I don't believe in the type of training..........and actually no police or military department in the world or any legit sport program including PSA train that way either".....his own words in quotes, with the ......... to keep the anonymity of trainers involved.


 

So, no facts. Nothing you can disclose. So, just baseless statements about PSA being in a negative light.

The decoy, you just don't agree with. I guess you can think PSA is negative because of me too, because I don't agree with you either about this. Considering disagreement is your litmus test for something being negative, I think you may have trouble on this forum, finding anything positive. People disagree here and in life all the time. It doesn't make things bad, only better.

What sport do you train in? What type of dog do you have? Close to trialing yet?


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*

Dave, I think you may have a bit of a reading comprehension problem, being that 1) I did speak of "facts" of what I observed, you just need to go back and reread my posts,and,2) if you look at my signature,avatar, and profile, it will answer your last set of questions.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Maureen A Osborn said:


> Dave, I think you may have a bit of a reading comprehension problem, being that 1) I did speak of "facts" of what I observed, you just need to go back and reread my posts,and,2) if you look at my signature,avatar, and profile, it will answer your last set of questions.


Maureen. Could you recap the facts out of what you have stated thus far? Maybe I did misunderstand what you are saying in regards to PSA. 

I have heard folks that train in one thing and the avatar shows another. But truthfully, I can't tell what type of dog is in your avatar, nor whether you'd be ready to trial yet or not. Just curious, but of course it's your prerogative to come on the WDF and not be willing to talk about your dogs or their training.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Dave Colborn said:


> Maureen. Could you recap the facts out of what you have stated thus far? Maybe I did misunderstand what you are saying in regards to PSA.


Does this help you Dave? [-o<



Maureen A Osborn said:


> Unfortunately, I have to agree with Tom, and I do have first hand experience going to and training at a "PSA" club(I dont think they are official, cause I dont see them listed on the PSA site). There was no OB on these dogs, every dog got flanked just to piss it off and make it bite,none outed on command and had to be choked off the bite, and the bigger these dogs were , the better,even if it was totally out of the breed standard. I am sure not all PSA clubs are like this, but, seems like the concensus says a lot are,and it is a shame, cause the concept of PSA is great, but some of the people it is attracting is really giving it a bad rap.





Maureen A Osborn said:


> exactly.
> 
> I can also add in about the egotistical decoys in PSA....one decoy in yet another club was balsy enough to tell me that , "no one else in the world trains like that," in reference to another trainer's methods.....
> 
> for whatever reason, PSA is attracting some not so ethical people....y'all might want to look into why and try to change that so that some of those in the dog sport world won't look at PSA so negatively, JMHO





Maureen A Osborn said:


> I usually dont care what others say or think, I only make judgements based on my own first hand experiences....but when your own experiences match what others have told you....you have to stop and think. Thank God my dog didnt get screwed up from this AH, but a friend's dog now has issues from this same person. People that are newer to dog sports are easily influenced and dont know right from wrong and are easily fed and eat up their BS.





Maureen A Osborn said:


> well, when people that have been doing dogsport for many years are telling you what PSA is like and then the very first club you go to is like what they told you....its gonna make you think twice. not saying it is a true reflection on PSA, but they formed their opinions from their experiences with the people they knew in PSA.Oh, and like I said, before, 2 women I highly respect have their dogs titled in PSA and I know the dont do that crap with their dogs. I honestly like the concept of PSA, but too many people I know equate PSA with unethical people, and there obviously must be a reason behind this, and that is why I said people may want to take a step back and figure out why some people still feel so negative about PSA.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*

Copied and pasted from a few pages back:

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Tom, and I do have first hand experience going to and training at a "PSA" club(I dont think they are official, cause I dont see them listed on the PSA site). There was no OB on these dogs, every dog got flanked just to piss it off and make it bite,none outed on command and had to be choked off the bite, and the bigger these dogs were , the better,even if it was totally out of the breed standard. I am sure not all PSA clubs are like this, but, seems like the concensus says a lot are,and it is a shame, cause the concept of PSA is great, but some of the people it is attracting is really giving it a bad rap.

Young,green dogs being flanked and having tons of pressure put on them when they were totally not ready for it. My friend's dog now has stick issues from it and will have to be retrained to get over it from it(she took him to a well known trainer for an eval).


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Maureen A Osborn said:


> Unfortunately, I have to agree with Tom, and I do have first hand experience going to and training at a "PSA" club(I dont think they are official, cause I dont see them listed on the PSA site). There was no OB on these dogs, every dog got flanked just to piss it off and make it bite,none outed on command and had to be choked off the bite, and the bigger these dogs were , the better,even if it was totally out of the breed standard. I am sure not all PSA clubs are like this, but, seems like the concensus says a lot are,and it is a shame, cause the concept of PSA is great, but some of the people it is attracting is really giving it a bad rap.).


Maureen, there is only one fact here, just your statement that PSA attracts people that give it a bad rap. You were attracted to it. You have just given it a bad rap. Self proclaiming prophecy. Nice job. 


I do agree that the sport doesn't need you giving it a bad rap. I think it needs guys like Thomas, who trials his dog and is willing to accept an invitation and come out and trial. He has an opinion based on fact from 10 years ago that I am willing to try and change. You don't have an opinion based in fact.

And how is your dog training going? Ready to trial?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*

Doug. Thanks for your cut and paste. Do you think any of what Mo O wrote is fact?


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Dave Colborn said:


> Doug. Thanks for your cut and paste. Do you think any of what Mo O wrote is fact?


In her mind! \\/

BTW since we are discussing facts... it was multi quoting not copy and paste!


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Doug Zaga said:


> In her mind! \\/
> 
> BTW since we are discussing facts... it was multi quoting not copy and paste!


 
I stand corrected. you sir, are amazing with your mulit quoting. 

I always wonder when things get silly where people stand. who believes what based on what is written.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*

Guess we will have to agree to disagree there Dave. Currently, Dave, I work my dogs for their utter enjoyment to work and to create a better bond with my dogs, for my working all sorts of long hours and variable shfts(ER RN) don't allow me to perform the consistancy of training that it would take to properly prepare a dog for a trial.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



I honestly like the concept of PSA said:


> I don't think people need to follow the herd. There is good and bad in any venue. You have to step back and be able to sort out who knows what they are doing and who doesn't. I can remember seeing that PSA was considered negative when I joined this board. Given what I had read, boy was I surprised at the first trial I went to. They demand precision and control and its extremely obvious in the critiques. I've also been to ca couple of their decoy camps. You don't just get a pass. You have to demonstrate an understanding of the program, technique and the ability to follow the judge's instructions. Some pass. Some don't. What's nice is how dedicated some of the certified decoys are to travel and bring their dogs and offer assistance and explanations to whoever asks--the same for the individual doing the seminars. The education is there if you want it. So insead of the wannabes, find the ones that are actually doing it and doing it well. Then find who you are compatible with training-wise if you are interested in trying it. Just because a club or group of individuals call themselves something, doesn't mean they are.
> 
> T


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't think people need to follow the herd. There is good and bad in any venue. You have to step back and be able to sort out who knows what they are doing and who doesn't. I can remember seeing that PSA was considered negative when I joined this board. Given what I had read, boy was I surprised at the first trial I went to. They demand precision and control and its extremely obvious in the critiques. I've also been to ca couple of their decoy camps. You don't just get a pass. You have to demonstrate an understanding of the program, technique and the ability to follow the judge's instructions. Some pass. Some don't. What's nice is how dedicated some of the certified decoys are to travel and bring their dogs and offer assistance and explanations to whoever asks--the same for the individual doing the seminars. The education is there if you want it. So insead of the wannabes, find the ones that are actually doing it and doing it well. Then find who you are compatible with training-wise if you are interested in trying it. Just because a club or group of individuals call themselves something, doesn't mean they are.
> 
> T


 
well said.


----------



## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Maureen A Osborn said:


> Actually Dave, I've been in contact with a PSA officer and this isnt the first time this person and this club has been brought up to him, so I am quite correct with my observations of them and I will leave it at that, I will not go into it any further.


Just in case you are unaware, the "officers" of PSA have reformed quite a bit recently, so perhaps your concerns with what you saw at a club that isn't even affiliated with the organization were not directed to the appropriate individual(s).

Like I said, if it was that bad and you felt it was worth your time to hop on WDF and voice your concerns about what the organization should and shouldn't do about a training group/decoy/trainer/etc that is shedding a negative light on the sport, then why wouldnt you actually consider sharing your concerns where they might matter?


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

And, somewhat ironically, a current thread on WDF with videos of "bad shit training" are videos of *gasp* SCHUTZHUND trainers!

Training is where you get it, I don't care what sport (or not) you are interested in.

Also, I don't understand protecting the guilty. If you have something to say, just say it. Stop hiding behind excuses of not wanting to "name names' or throw people under the bus.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I honestly like the concept of PSA said:


> whenever PSA is being discussed, I always seem to here the same comments like the one above. Not just recently, but over and over the past few years, why is that?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> whenever PSA is being discussed, I always seem to here the same comments like the one above. Not just recently, but over and over the past few years, why is that?


I think like other bits of information on the WDF, people heard it 8 years ago, once, and repeat it today like it's gospel. 

Look at the post by Maureen A. Osborn in this thread for example. Does what she's said in any way give you any intel on anything related to PSA? Not really, other than she doesn't like it. Good thing she's into Ringsports.

Assume that the information in her post was worthy of the death penalty or jail time. Can you find one shred of anything in her post that would even lead you to investigate further or convict? 

In this case, the glove doesn't fit from what I have seen first hand. (little pun there with hand and glove)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



doug zaga said:


> in her mind! \\:d/
> 
> btw since we are discussing facts... It was multi quoting not copy and paste!


amazing!!


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> Also know an AB at ur trial went after a judge and had to be beaten off with his clipboard. Not good.


Doesnt just happen in PSA. 2 years ago Baltazar went to the French cup(FR) in 1 place. He went to bite the judge on the Gun attack. Sometimes dogs get confused.


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

Sad part about this whole thread is that Georgia is trying to give credit where credit is due. To the club, competitors, decoys, judge, and the spectators, and it gets ran to the ground. I hear ya Georgia. 
My club members had a good time as well did I. Thanks goes to you and all else mentioned.


Darryl





*copied to new trial recap thread at * http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f37/dallas-psa-trial-recap-25401/index3.html#post364137


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Darryl Richey said:


> Sad part about this whole thread is that Georgia is trying to give credit where credit is due. To the club, competitors, decoys, judge, and the spectators, and it gets ran to the ground. I hear ya Georgia.
> My club members had a good time as well did I. Thanks goes to you and all else mentioned.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Maureen A Osborn said:


> Guess we will have to agree to disagree there Dave. Currently, Dave, I work my dogs for their utter enjoyment to work and to create a better bond with my dogs, for my working all sorts of long hours and variable shfts(ER RN) don't allow me to perform the consistancy of training that it would take to properly prepare a dog for a trial.


did you champion out your dog?


----------



## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*

>>>If dog bites in OB you will fail. If dog does not out in 3 commands you will fail.>>>

Kerry or others. so I don't have to read the rules ... what is a passing score? is there anything else that is an "automatic fail"... what was the most common reason the dogs failed at your last trial?

Also what kind of collars are allowed?

PS. I heard from someone (when I was picking up a new puppy) who had talked to Khoi about the club. He had said there was someone there who did Schutzhund (me) but they quit...Say hi to Khoi and yes I did quit the club but didn't quit dog sport - I decided to refocus on IPO and am having to work out problems because of doing too much "bite work" without OB/control ... as in I can't do any bitework at all right now (until we get the BH and better control)...and my dog still doesn't have an out  I'm sure its more a reflection on me as a handler (newbie) and my dog (strong dog) than the club...but that was my experience. started there and left there with a very strong in drive biting dog.

still you guys were alot of fun!

Wish I'd known you were going to have such a big entry for your trial. would have come by.

Donna


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

*Re: Dallas PSA trial recap...*



Donna DeYoung said:


> >>>If dog bites in OB you will fail. If dog does not out in 3 commands you will fail.>>>
> 
> Kerry or others. so I don't have to read the rules ... what is a passing score? is there anything else that is an "automatic fail"... what was the most common reason the dogs failed at your last trial?
> 
> ...


I don't know without looking it up, but I think you have to get 75% of the points available to pass OB. IMO, heeling is were most points are lost in OB. In PDC and PSA1 dog wears a fursaver on the dead ring. You add a flat for the car jack. In PSA 2 and 3 the dog is naked.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

uhhh...wow. We dont all have to like each other's sport(s)...we just all have sport dogs in common. There are bad people everywhere. In all sports. In all DOG sports. In all walks of life.

That being said....congrats to the TX club that had this big fat trial with tons of dogs and tons of great feedback from the trial.


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## Robert Hillebert (Dec 20, 2009)

Great Job Kerry ! Odin looks great !!


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Robert Hillebert said:


> Great Job Kerry ! Odin looks great !!


 
Thanks for the compliment Rob. And thanks for breeding him and selling him to me! I really love this dog!


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