# Training the dog that hates you, lol



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

You guys know about my fiance's dog that has been hating on me for 2 years. He is a 5 year old Golden Retriever. His attitude towards me has changed with the dog that I own. I have a spayed female now - my dog, not an in-training or foster dog. He has been more friendly, but still growly.

My trainer wants me to stop picking at my dog and train a second dog. And this is the dog that I have to work with. He has tons of potential for pretty obedience.

He will play fetch and tug with me. He will do the few commands he knows (sit, stay, come) for me. He will accept treats from me.

Yesterday, I was starting heeling, Mike Ellis style. I had him on a 20-cent slip lead. Just luring with treats. 

He acted relaxed and enthusiatic, BUT, he would still growl if I touched him in praise. So I stopped touching him. Then for a while, he growled every time I gave him a treat. But accepted the treat happily.

I'm concerned that I'll reinforce growling if I ignore it. If I correct it I can kiss positive training (and potential bonding) goodbye.

Should I ignore? Withhold treat? Correct? Stop training immediately after a growl? (That might be reinforcing the growl, or it could end the game and be a correction?).

I think I can get video tonight. His growl is pretty quiet, so I don't know if it will be audible.


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## Petra Dabezic (May 23, 2011)

I'm sorry, but this is a weird situation. I suspect you're kind of a weird girl who is giving off a weird vibe, and the dog just doesn't like it. I'm not sure there's a great solution to that. Maybe you don't agree, but you know what I'm getting at? Whenever our dogs give wierdos the stink-eye, we suspect their judgement is good and we're proud of them. Not so fun when you're the weirdo. I'd forget training for a while and take him on long exhausting runs next to a bicycle. Maybe try shutting your mouth for a while and stop picking at the dog as your trainer suggested for your other dog. In fact, it sounds like your trainer might have accurately described your training style IN GENERAL if he flippin' told you to leave your other dog alone.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

DON'T train the dog, work on the relationship with the dog.
If as Petra suggested, you're just giving off weird vibes, then find another hobby or find someone else to train your dog.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

My vets dog does the same exact thing. We ignore it, the dog listens and does his OB and thats just how it is. To me it's no big deal, the dog obeys so who cares.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

haha! I AM a wierd vibe, lol. \\/

I have a private lesson on Friday for this, but still want to see what WDF opinions are.

I don't understand why he will play, take treats, petting (usually), but then also growls. I don't understand why I've been able to teach him to play disc (catch it in the air) and doc dive (not hesitating), which are things that my fiance said he would never be able to do. But after working on those things slowly through play, he still growls at me.

Clarify - he only growls if I am really close and trying to change his behavior. No other times. I can groom him, clean his ears, brush teeth, give food, pick up something next to him while he's eating, tell him to come or go, pet him, play fetch, tug, disc, dock dive, and give treats. 

I don't get it, I've never come across this before. 

I can ignore it IF giving him a reward for a correct behavior doesn't reinforce the growl. Do I have another option?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I had rotts that would growl all the time, this dog growls at me too. It this case it is not about HATRED though...nothing like what you describe...

being that it is a retriever, can you try a toy instead of food? a tug, or a ball? this dog is more growly with a toy, but it is a much different kind of dog than yours I am sure..

the touching is not praise for him.

If that is the dog you want to work with,,,I would PLAY with the dog for a while and make that the "training". 

Also, instead of looking for strict OB... why not train something else...
Tracking, detection/hunt games, agility type stuff, fetching games.

The real question, taking the whole situation is:

How many times, while you were in The "Dark Place", have you put your hands on this dog, or treated it unfairly? 

the relationship has never been good, admittedly he doesnt like you much, so work on that before you try to "train" him...
just my .02...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I worked my last PSD for 8 years and the ungreatful bastard growls at me all the time . I got him knowing he was handler aggressive . 

I tried everything to get him to stop . Tried to bond with him the first few months . Hand fed him his meals , just hung out played fetch , let him make up the descision to come over and be social . Made him see the light on other occassions when this aggression had gone too far .

Set some boundaries over time but he's still a big growler . Still bothers me but as long as he does what's told it's no big deal and if he is disobediant I correct for his disobediance not the growling . After awhile I didn't worry about the possiblity of reinforcing the growling if I rewarded him for something else and he growled . I just ignored it . 

He turned out to be a great dog , found many many badguys at work , was picked to be on the SWAT team due to his control amongst other things . Also won some trophies with him to boot . Some dogs are just assholes as long as they listen I don't think it's that big a deal . 

Now I don't know your dog but I would try within reason to bond with him but if it doesn't happen you'll just have to settle for his obediance to you . JMO .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Some dogs are just assholes as long as they listen I don't think it's that big a deal .
> 
> Now I don't know your dog but I would try within reason to bond with him but if it doesn't happen you'll just have to settle for his obediance to you . JMO .


Back in the stone age, we conducted a study to see if we could retrain sentry dogs into patrol dogs. I was assigned a dog named Kobo 750M. He was a dick from the word go. The problem was he excelled in anything we threw at him for the patrol dog school. The dog did not like me. He was a growler and on occasion would just try to bite me. It was not uncommon for him to at least snap at me at the end of training, when I was leaving him in the kennel. When he certified as a patrol dog, I thought I would be done with him. It was at that time we did the feasibility study on training drug dogs (late '68, told you it was the stone age). The asked me to keep Kobo for that project. I hated that dog. We were on the Air Force Demo team, because he was that good. he bit me twice during demos, when of course I couldn't do anything to him. During the time I had him, we had knock down drag outs, I slammed him into a wall one time, slammed his head in the kennel door on a couple of occasions and found a whole lot of dope, ha ha. He was sent to Viet Nam in 71. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Back in the stone age, we conducted a study to see if we could retrain sentry dogs into patrol dogs. I was assigned a dog named Kobo 750M. He was a dick from the word go. The problem was he excelled in anything we threw at him for the patrol dog school. The dog did not like me. He was a growler and on occasion would just try to bite me. It was not uncommon for him to at least snap at me at the end of training, when I was leaving him in the kennel. When he certified as a patrol dog, I thought I would be done with him. It was at that time we did the feasibility study on training drug dogs (late '68, told you it was the stone age). The asked me to keep Kobo for that project. I hated that dog. We were on the Air Force Demo team, because he was that good. he bit me twice during demos, when of course I couldn't do anything to him. During the time I had him, we had knock down drag outs, I slammed him into a wall one time, slammed his head in the kennel door on a couple of occasions and found a whole lot of dope, ha ha. He was sent to Viet Nam in 71.
> 
> DFrost


Sounds like Bingo's great granddad . I have a love / hate thing with mine . Love his work , hate that he's a dink . I can't send him anywhere now . He's on day 6 of being just a pet now and he faced off with me today when I went to take him for a walk . He seems to be a little pissed off about me losing the squad car . Looks for it all the time .


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the comment about verifying what the growl meant was a very good one ... some dogs are just growlers and it is not an warning something more aggressive is around the corner....some love to growl when playing
- if it is an aggression indicator there are always other signals displayed unless a handler has beat them out of the dog :-(

but regarding OB and a behavior problem..... i have never found that OB solves a behavior problem and could cite many many instances to prove it anecdotally from my experience....i also feel layering OB on ANY behavior problem is counterproductive, altho it is frequently recommended as the first thing to do ..... altho it may appear and often does allow the handler to "get control", i see NO way how it solves the behavior problem, or even has an effect on it (except maybe to mask it), and in some extreme cases adds another layer of stress the dog has to deal with....this of course will seem like "feel good" crap to pack leader types, but i've never been one and don't believe in that theory anyway


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I've never laid a hand on him except to lift him up by his collar for growling at me. Was totally ineffective, so haven't done that for a long time. I sort of baby him. He wasn't used to compete with another dog for playing fetch, so I still favor him or hold back my dog so that he gets a fair chance to play. Mostly we ignore each other, live in the same space, don't interact much.

He's not handler aggressive. Hatred is dramatic, lol. He has never forgiven me for taking his spot on the couch 2 years ago. That is when the growling started, lol. I tried to encourage him to come on the couch. He'll hop up, come over and lie down with his head on my leg, then start shaking and growling. Jeez dog! The couch is big! If you don't want to be near me then go on the other side of the couch.! :roll: I gave up on that. Sometimes (like right now) he'll lie on the other end of the couch, but he gives me the stink eye. :-D

I don't expect him to like me. He's much more relaxed when we're outside - trainable. I'm wondering if ignoring it during training will reinforce it?


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Sorry Anne, I'm ignorant of the history you spoke of.
Has the dog actually ever taken a run at you? Or is it just this vocalization with no other overt aggressive behavior?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

He has never come after me. I think that if I caused him pain - like a hard prpng correction he didn't understand - I think he would snap and try a nip. But that has never happened. He used to hackle last year but doesn't anymore.

If he has no aggression and there's no danger then ignoring would be correct?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> the comment about verifying what the growl meant was a very good one ... some dogs are just growlers and it is not an warning something more aggressive is around the corner....some love to growl when playing
> - if it is an aggression indicator there are always other signals displayed unless a handler has beat them out of the dog :-(
> 
> but regarding OB and a behavior problem..... i have never found that OB solves a behavior problem and could cite many many instances to prove it anecdotally from my experience....i also feel layering OB on ANY behavior problem is counterproductive, altho it is frequently recommended as the first thing to do ..... altho it may appear and often does allow the handler to "get control", i see NO way how it solves the behavior problem, or even has an effect on it (except maybe to mask it), and in some extreme cases adds another layer of stress the dog has to deal with....this of course will seem like "feel good" crap to pack leader types, but i've never been one and don't believe in that theory anyway


Whose comments on OB are you referring to ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You've been around this dog for two years and still haven't made a connection with it? 
Use a different dog...and bond/get to know/have fun with it instead of trying to train it right out of the gate.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Randy Allen said:


> Sorry Anne, I'm ignorant of the history you spoke of.
> Has the dog actually ever taken a run at you? Or is it just this vocalization with no other overt aggressive behavior?


Here ya go Randy this oughta bring you up to speed!
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f52/my-bfs-dog-hates-me-15532/


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I doubt if this has any relevance but my Border collie always growls when I run him in agility. He is very intense and he loves to run flat out. He always growls when I get in his way or dont give him directions at the speed of light or if he thinks I am being in anyway incompetent in my handling of him. Sometimes it is just from shear joy at taking the obstacles at warp speed.

Doesnt do it on sheep, just in agility. He doesnt hate me he just wants me to be a competent handler and move a bit quicker LOL

If you pick on your own dog how is your training style going to be any different with another dog?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> I think I can get video tonight.


Did you happen to take any video tonight?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

similar story to the BC in agility....
i trained with a GSD for therapy work
he was a growler....he was vocal....he growled whenever he was having fun:::it was HIS "thing"
owner said he failed two evaluations because of the growling 
....the dog was "DQ'd" and didn't even get a full test
so she tried EVERYTHING to stop it and had failed......came to me
...in short, we took a different approach and later went for another eval.

I explained to the evaluator up front his growling was a plus not a minus and how he would be using it to "talk" to patients and demoed a few little "cutesy" drills we had taught him

i then asked the evaluator to work the dog any way they wanted to and demonstrate that the growling was a sign of aggression..... evaluator failed ... dog passed

fwiw, currently no longer advertising Purina for the DELTA people .... she joined another outfit that doesn't prohibit therapy dogs from enjoying a bone every now and then


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Is this still the Golden from a year ago we're talking about!?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sure sounds like the same thing with the same dog to me and after wading thru a LOT of pages you supposedly had it under control "back then", but i thought i also read "back then" that you had smacked thumped or in some other way had a little more physical contact than just "lifting his collar" like you now claim, and that you really didn't care whether he bonded or not....would quote you exactly but don't want to dig thru all the pages to find it again, but for sure u got a lot of advice "back then" that you obviously didn't take based on the comments you are making now...
if you got a professional working dog that HAS to work you can live with socialization issues rather then spend the HELLUVA lotta time and patience it takes to FIX it, which usually CAN be fixed if you focus DIRECTLY on the issue instead of indirectly, REGARDLESS of how many "social" genes it came with

those who can't fix these problems usually can't recognize the causes in the first place, (as in he got pissed when i took his sofa spot, or some type of related comment), have a POOR understanding of basic canine behavior and in EVERY case have way too little time or patience to even try and deal with it.

i was going to actually provide some specific techniques based on dealing with it operantly that have worked for me, but after reading the first thread that got locked why bother

of course this will piss you off and you may "block" me like others in your first go around, but don't bother asking me if i care cause i won't be watching this Re-run anymore 
this is a PET golden for christsakes, and TOO many issues were already pointed out to you that appeared to get rejected because they didn't fit your training style.....JMO of course but lots of other better threads for me to watch and learn from

p.s. - if it's a different dog you probably need to state your problems a lot more clearly than you have so far


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick how but posting how you'd fix it anyways .


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Rick how but posting how you'd fix it anyways .


I'd like to see how Rick would fix the problem too. I do understand what Rick is saying. It seems that Anne is more interested in the attention she gets with her "problem" then in solutions to the problem? :-(


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

First you have to define the problem.


T


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Last night was 4H OB with my neighbor and "my" dog.  It's not pretty but, good enough. They made some progress.

I'll try again tonight! I just need a body to hold the camera.  I have my private lesson tomorrow and can't think any reason why I can't get video then.  Excited to see if I learn anything tomorrow!

Training style on this dog is totally different. A dog that I've trained to be a service dog is accustomed to long training sessions. 1 to 8 hours. Little things are a big deal when your trusting a dog with your life.

The golden - Hunter - is literally 3 treat training session. No leash or a slip leash loose. No "molding" of any kind. He hates the clicker. Doesn't have enough experience to really understand a "yes" marker. I think he has lots of potential - but not for the way I am used to training. I betcha $10 if I pick on him he'll bite me. :mrgreen:

FWIW, the one person that pissed me off I unblocked because the advice is always sound.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

That's what is so confusing, is Anne talking about 'my dog' or Hunter?

If you'll allow me untill Rick gets back; the first thing I'd do is determine is what source of the volacization was, ie. aggression or just being vocal? (I've met many Goldens that are vocal)
The next thing is, I'd stop with demanding the hand over the head stuff. Some dogs don't like it, period.
Next I'd start working one on one with the dog. No more having the dog waiting around (begging) for attention.

Get BF involved....it's not fun to be left sucking hind teet.

And I'd make damn sure the dog gets his own bed back. There wouldn't be any of this 'oh the dogs will decide' BS.

So Anne, let's be honest what is the present situation?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Randy Allen said:


> That's what is so confusing, is Anne talking about 'my dog' or Hunter?
> 
> If you'll allow me untill Rick gets back; the first thing I'd do is determine is what source of the volacization was, ie. aggression or just being vocal? (I've met many Goldens that are vocal)
> The next thing is, I'd stop with demanding the hand over the head stuff. Some dogs don't like it, period.
> ...


Sorry - "my dog" is Cabella. The chocolate lab I posted heeling video of a couple weeks ago. His dog is Hunter - the golden.

Hunter is vocal about greetings and people/animals near "his" yard. He is not normally vocal in the house, maybe a play growl if he is playing with my fiance. They are best buds and really get into it.  Then the growl at me when he doesn't want me to tell him to do something.

The odd thing about that growl is it has changed depending on what dog I have. It was worst last year when I posted the thread. I had a female puppy then. When she was placed, his attitude towards me improved hugely. I had a male chocolate lab after that. The were best buds and the growling was less again. I placed that lab last year and now have MY dog, a littlermate to the last choc lab I trained. Growling was more for a couple months and has settled down to a RARE occurrence.

Present situation: I know he dislikes being handled and I believe it is because he does not know what I want and doesn't know how to figure it out. I know that he will growl at me if confused or pressured. I know that he has no intent for aggressive behavior. The number of incidences he has growled at me is low. The last two times were when I touched him in training. It doesn't happen day-to-day just being in the house. Both dogs got upgrades and new beds. Hunter sleeps on the couch at night. Cabella sleeps by the side of my bed. Both dogs are in and out all day. Ring the bell to go out, bark once to come in. Hunter lays in the sunshine most of the day. I know that he has a very strong bond with my fiance and no bond at all with me. I HOPE that doing a little obedience training will improve how we get along. I have no trial or competition goal. I would like to train attention heeling and the AKC Novice exercises. Present situation - he complies in general but only as far as the food or toy reward is obvious. Which is fine, barely even started luring!

My worry is that training him will bring it out and then when I reward a correct behavior, he might be reinforced for the growling? I'd imagine that he'll get start to understand what we are doing, stress goes down and growling goes away. I hope so! What do you think?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Video!  There was no growling in the session. 

HOWEVER, in the house I called Hunter and he hid behind my fiance in his chair. My fiance laughs at this. (If my dog did that to him I would bust her ass for refusing his command!) I offered a treat, he came for it... but so did my dog and he growled. I put my dog in a sit in a different room and then called him out sucessfully and rewarded. He did not growl or show any reservation after that. 

If my fiance isn't home, he doesn't hide like that and then get growly. When my fiance is gone, he just comes when called.



Well here is tonight's video. I apologize for the light quality. I was luring come-to-heel, luring moving forward with head up, and playing around with positions. He does not know the stand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjTBoxL0V6E


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

What you still haven't put the dog down!!!? Your husband/boyfriend or whatever he is to you , is one weak stupid son of a bitch and definitely not a real man! Since he is allowing you to continually terrorize Hunter. A veterinary of all things to boot! I guess he secretly likes watching you do it. I mean what the hell is wrong with "you people"?
This is the kind of shitty treatment of animals that pisses the crap out of me! And there's no excuse for let your ego getting the best of you! 
Honestly Anne why do you insist on treating Hunter in this manner? You know he clearly doesn't like you and with good reason! You hate the dog and have said so in not so many words along with put your hands on him in an unkind manner.

*THE DOG DOESN'T LIKE YOU AND IS SCARE TO DEATH OF YOU!!!!!!! GET THE HELL OVER IT!!!!*

*Hunter is the daily reminding proof that you aren't the Master Dog Trainer you've made yourself up to be in your head! **
AGAIN GET THE HELL OVER IT AND MOVE ON!!!!*
Seriously, you have your own dog now! Focus on screw it's head up and leave Hunter alone. Hopefully the one who makes the decisions in your head will read this and stop all this damn nonsense.


In this case just continue to whine about and don't try to train or work Hunter.
Peace out I'm gone! 
I'm sorry Bob but sometimes person needs to hear it ugly!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Somebody didn't watch the video.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> Somebody didn't watch the video.


If I thought I was some demi-god of dog training I would be telling you what to do, not asking a question that leaves me vulnerable to criticism.

Please explain how giving a dog a couple of treats is "torture". Wait. Don't.

I'm glad you're "off". If you can't see relaxed and happy body language in a video, that's your problem. If I was mistreating him he has complete freedom to walk away. He chose not to.

I find it extremely offensive that you suggest a healthy, happy dog be euthanized because he occassionally isn't completely high on life. #-oHe has a good life. He just doesn't like me.


OK. moving on.




Lots of chat, but no answer to my question!! ](*,)

If I ignore it: If I use marker training I reinforce the behavior that happens when I mark. If I mark correct obedience but he growls at the same time, do you think I'll create a "superstition" that the growl is to be reinforced?

I've decided from the posters above that I won't correct the growl. I'm doing this for fun (for both of us), no reason for corrections and if I did correct it I can "kiss it goodbye" - he won't choose to train. 

I have that private lesson with Hunter in about an hour. I'll post back what I've learned.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> If I ignore it: If I use marker training I reinforce the behavior that happens when I mark. If I mark correct obedience but he growls at the same time, do you think I'll create a "superstition" that the growl is to be reinforced?


I would not be worried about it. Assuming he understands the whole marking game, there may be some confusion regarding what you are marking on his part at first, but since the" marking for growling" should appear random to him, ie sometimes he thinks it's what you want, but then when he repeats the behavior he gets no mark, or the "no reward mark", he will realize reasonably quickly that it's the other behavior you were marking. Especially when that one is consistently marked.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I too don't understand why you have resurrected this. Why can't you just leave the dog alone. He's not some objective play toy. All the focus is on you and what you want and need. What about what the dog needs. Your trainer said to quit picking at your dog so now Hunter is back on the chopping block. I've never had a dog hate me but hubby and I have had his and her dogs where the dog preferred one over the other. We didn't disturb that. My mother always said a dog truly only has one master. We've always respected that. We can each handle, care for each other's dogs but we don't assume the master role. We didn't have such need to CONTROL that or any other dog's existence. I had a rescue Mazie that I rehabbed to a certain point and she was a great house dog. One fear that we didn't screw with was her fear of a man picking her up. We didn't feel the need to get her over it and make her tolerate it. It wasn't important in managing her. She would do anything you asked of her. Why put her in fear of her life and who knows how she got that way. Any human or dog has its limits and thresholds. You have to respect that and MOVE ON. You have your limits and thresholds. Respect that the dog has his and move on. You've never liked or respected the dog. He knows it. His entire life was disrupted and his master abandoned him to the whim of a new dog and human pack. The best thing you could do for this dog and yourself is to leave him alone.


Terrasita


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Lynda Myers said:


> What you still haven't put the dog down!!!? Your husband/boyfriend or whatever he is to you , is one weak stupid son of a bitch and definitely not a real man! Since he is allowing you to continually terrorize Hunter. A veterinary of all things to boot! I guess he secretly likes watching you do it. I mean what the hell is wrong with "you people"?
> This is the kind of shitty treatment of animals that pisses the crap out of me! And there's no excuse for let your ego getting the best of you!
> Honestly Anne why do you insist on treating Hunter in this manner? You know he clearly doesn't like you and with good reason! You hate the dog and have said so in not so many words along with put your hands on him in an unkind manner.
> 
> ...



**applause**
'Nuff said.


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

Just a quick thought... do you often do your lure training with the dog in front?

Your body language is fairly full on in this position, you lean forward a lot too and it's increasing his tendancy to jump up / back and be too excitable - which'll in turn increase his arousal.

How about clicker training some behaviours with him by your side, or with you sat down. I think he is also a dog for slightly calmer training, rather than hype training.

Let us know what the trainer says.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I would not be worried about it. Assuming he understands the whole marking game, there may be some confusion regarding what you are marking on his part at first, but since the" marking for growling" should appear random to him, ie sometimes he thinks it's what you want, but then when he repeats the behavior he gets no mark, or the "no reward mark", he will realize reasonably quickly that it's the other behavior you were marking. Especially when that one is consistently marked.


Thank you! That's what my trainer said today.  He said to not worry about it, ignore it, and that it will fade away as Hunter and I start to build a play-based relationship.

I'm curious to see how it all unfolds from here.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> Your body language is fairly full on in this position, you lean forward a lot too and it's increasing his tendancy to jump up / back and be too excitable - which'll in turn increase his arousal.
> 
> How about clicker training some behaviours with him by your side, or with you sat down. I think he is also a dog for slightly calmer training, rather than hype training.
> 
> Let us know what the trainer says.


You are right about training style. It's hard to adjust to a different type of dog. I don't know exactly what to do except slow down.

I think the idea of me sitting down during training is very interesting. Thank you! I will try it and let you know how he responds.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Training session video. 

The first part is the 3rd little session with Hunter. 

The second part is trying to get Hunter to growl. That sort of petting or asking him to jump up is what has made him growl before. He did not today.

The third part is talking with the trainer. Check out Hunter's body language. (Obviously he is tortured with stress. :roll: )

Apologize for video quality - my budding filmaker is 12 years old. I might make you a little sea-sick 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjTBoxL0V6E


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If any dog growled at me whilst I was training it, I would have to consider what I was doing wrongly.

Jim Nash, I guess you are the only person on here that I would believe what you say about your dog growling. All others, I would say, you are making big mistakes. You are going forward before you have realised why the dog you are training is growling at you and before you have fixed it.

Training has to place the dog in a relaxed position if he is to learn anything. Growling doesn't enter this at all.

Growling can mean that the dog doesn't see you as the Boss!!

We had a Swiss Army Instructor (a friend of ours) on visit. He managed to put our Fila Brasileiro into "Platz" and Sitz", all the while the Fila growled. But we were present.

If you are looking for a career in sport, growling at you is not acceptable.

Jim,. I guess your dog obeys you wiith or without the growl and here is the difference.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

What I was getting at is that with some dogs growling is not a sign that if left unresolved your house made of cards will come crashing down . We train from 12 to 30 new patrol dogs a year and I see growlers like this once every couple of years . With these dogs we did what we did with all dogs that growled at their handlers corrected the snot out of them even though they had been obeying commands .This just increased the growling and many times started an unneccessary fight . Because of this I hardly ever correct for a dog growling nowadays . Instead I deal with the disobediance if there is some . If the dog growls but obeys the growling isn't an issue . Now I always have the handlers try some bonding techniques with dog outside of the regular patrol training but most of the time with these types of dogs the growling remains . IMO with these dogs they growl when they are problem solving . Could be during positive marker training even . Its due to stress but just the stress of figuring out the correct behavior to get the reward nothing more and minor stress to the dog . Same goes for the proofing phase down the road .I'll relate it to the amount of stress a person has figuring out a crossword question . Where we might say "hmmmmm..." the dog does this with a growl . We then make a bigger deal of it then it is to the dog . Because growling can mean different things with different dogs I don't really deal with it outside of bonding training . To me disobediance is the sign I look for that a dog doesn't see the handler as boss . Growling can and cannot be a sign of this .Sorry for the one paragraph I'm on my phone .


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Excellent post Jim -
need a "like" button on these forums....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good point Jim!
When I groom my dogs they are on their sides on a table. To roll them over I stand at their back and grab all four legs and roll them over. That's one of the very few times Thunder will growl at me while looking me dead in the eyes. He doesn't like to be on his back if he's not getting a belly rub (which he freely will offer at other times). I respect that and just ignore the growl. It's a complaint from him not an attack. 
My other dog Trooper may growl from stress when I do the same to him. BOTH dogs could probably pushed into a confrontation, for different reasons, if I took the growling personal. One of the big reasons, IMO, for "handler aggression".


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Give me a dog that "hates" me (which I don't think a dog has the capacity for to start with lol). He won't be hating me long I assure you. Forget the "training" stuff and hang out with the dog and let him know its you and him in it for the long haul.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

When I watch the video, I don' t see a dog that hates you, I see a dog that seems overwhelmed by you. He looks like he has the typical soft golden temperment with a desire to please, but he seems scared/intimidated/stressed by what you want from him. As someone else pointed out, your body language and presence is strong. From what I see on the video as you jump forward to reward, he bounces back to get out of your space.

Will he come forward to take food from you? Will he follow you driving into your hand to get the food?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

leslie cassian said:


> When I watch the video, I don' t see a dog that hates you, I see a dog that seems overwhelmed by you. He looks like he has the typical soft golden temperment with a desire to please, but he seems scared/intimidated/stressed by what you want from him. As someone else pointed out, your body language and presence is strong. From what I see on the video as you jump forward to reward, he bounces back to get out of your space.
> 
> Will he come forward to take food from you? Will he follow you driving into your hand to get the food?


 
I didn't know the answer so I had to go find out!

I held a Milkbone in both my hands, not leaning forward, not saying anything. He came up and took it. Somewhat cautiously? His drive for the food overrid his discomort. He didn't look overtly stressed, but he wasn't anything like my dog who would claw me up and down to get a treat if I didn't tell her "off".

He was taught (not my me) to take treats gently. He's just following the treat in my hand - when luring the heel position, and that took some verbal encouragement. I HOPE he will get really comfortable and drive into my hand.

We were out fishing/camping for the weekend. Dock diving and (me) swimming with the dogs. Hunter is very relaxed on the boat and doesn't growl if I need to tell him to go away or turn around. His attitude is very relaxed and confident on the boat or near water. He gets all excited when he hears a fish on the line - his reward is he gets to lick the fish. Eww! 

I will try to focus on my body language. Stop the stand postiion which requires me moving into his space. Work on a close front instead which he moves into my space, gets close for a food reward.

Thank you for the feedback on body position! I'll post again when I get video or if anything changes for better or worse.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I am sure it is different, but this dog growls (I think) to induce tug play (reward), and to push me around a little, which is fine with me, I don't dominate the dog. 

If I do OB with her, and she has the tug in her mouth, she growls almost constantly, I am sure sometimes because she thinks I am going to try to take it, but also to induce me to try to take it from her, i think....she likes to play rough and noisy....

with a ball, it might be some kind of warning growl, but I ignore it...

who knows though.

She does not like me brushing the underside of her tail much, or clipping her nails, even then she doesn't growl, she goes to mouth me or snap a little..I do a little, then let her run off a little, then she comes back and we do a little more...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

My dog is a growler...never bothered me, I view it as communication and not necessarily as any kind of warning or defiance as such.

He growls when I touch his legs, or groom his stomach. He growls when I lift his empty food bowl or when I pass too closely when he is in his bed.

He growls when he thinks I am not removing his toy or tug in the correct manner :smile:, he's just, well...a growler, I don't mind that he's vocal, I'm pretty vocal myself.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I don't mind that he's vocal, I'm pretty vocal myself.


no way....


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I don't mind that he's vocal, I'm pretty vocal myself.



No sh** really ?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Get lost you pair !!!

I reckon if you dole it out...you ought to take it too. I like interactive crack, dogs are ok at that too if you let them !


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

it all fun and games, until someone gets hurt


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> it all fun and games, until someone gets hurt


That is for the inexperienced and/or paranoid.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> That is for the inexperienced and/or paranoid.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Leslie sent some great ideas about teaching driving into the hand as a separate exercise. I love it. After I read it and thought about it for a while I think it will work. 

I was assuming that I would get the driving into my hand for reward as a by-product of heeling.

Leslie teaches it as a separate behavior.

Sounds like everyone says Hunter is stressed and/or overwhelmed. So breaking everything down into teeny-tiny behaviors, then chain then should work? Instead of come to heel + head up + chase lure + stay at heel + forward motion + halt... I'd just teach the drive into hand. Shape it into drive into hand up. Then drive into hand up and forward. At the same time, separately, work on swing finish. Then put them together occassionally. Then start adding steps.

Make sense as a process to do over... 5? sessions?

We're completely pooped out from camping/fishing/swimming. I don't think there will be a video tonight.


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## chris mercer (Apr 1, 2009)

I wish I could see the dog more clearly but from my inexperienced eyes I can only see a happy dog. We
all have our own likes and dislikes in training but I prefer to address my dog by it's name before naming a cue,is his name bud? Also, I like a starting and stopping point with a release to let the dog know it is free to goof off, not just wander away. This topic has certainly gotten lots of comments from qualified trainers but I ask why in two years this problem still exists. Thank goodness he's neutered, as breeds we don't need aggressive Goldens. Has he bitten you yet? If not why not. A truly dominant dog pushed would likely go on you. If he has some genetic problem put him down and move on. Are you consistent in your training?Then go see a better trainer for help. 

Chris Mercer


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

chris mercer said:


> I wish I could see the dog more clearly but from my inexperienced eyes I can only see a happy dog. We
> all have our own likes and dislikes in training but I prefer to address my dog by it's name before naming a cue,is his name bud? Also, I like a starting and stopping point with a release to let the dog know it is free to goof off, not just wander away. This topic has certainly gotten lots of comments from qualified trainers but I ask why in two years this problem still exists. Thank goodness he's neutered, as breeds we don't need aggressive Goldens. Has he bitten you yet? If not why not. A truly dominant dog pushed would likely go on you. If he has some genetic problem put him down and move on. Are you consistent in your training?Then go see a better trainer for help.
> 
> Chris Mercer


you need all the background...

dark spooky places...medications...and physical abuse of other dogs in the household...

I imagine the dog has been a witness to things he wants no part of...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I tried half-assed and gave up. I think that counts as "inconsistent", lol. Bad me. I have done maybe a dozen? 2 dozen? training sessions with him in 2 years and most of those in the last 2 weeks.

@ chris -- I use a dog's name as a command that means "look at me / come to me", so I never use it in training unless that is exactly what I want. Hunter doesn't know this yet, I instinctively don't use a dog's name until this is trained. Is it the best way? I don't know. Just what I have done in the past many times and have continued to do.

I don't think he understands start / stop / markers yet. I don't intend to teach them individually. He HAS been living with me for 2 years and I do instinctively use markers / releases. Even if something as simple as feeding him with a release, or letting him out the door with a release. Y'know? Make sense? I *think* he has some general idea of what these are and that he'll figure it out soon. Maybe not? 

But on the other hand, I DO want him to choose to interact with me. Have you ever heard of training a "happy button"? It's a touch pad command. You put out a "button" and when your dog hits it you drop everything and play. I want ME to be the "happy button" when it comes to training. Not me leashing him and saying "we start now", but him coming with me and saying "let's play". 

I KNOW how to put obedience on him fast. But that's not my intent. 

Anyone forsee future problems with my theoretical "happy button" approach?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I KNOW how to put obedience on him fast. But that's not my intent.
> 
> >Nothing I've seen or heard so far would lead ME to that
> >conclusion
> ...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Happy news. 

Hunter's worst behavior has been when my fiance is in his recliner in the corner and I ask Hunter to do something. His typical old behavior was to go behind the recliner and lie down.

Tonight however,

I called him. He looked at me, walked over to my fiance (who was sitting in the recliner). I called him again and he came to me. (I just about fell over) without growling. without obvious stress.

I felt like it was a breakthrough moment! 

We did driving into my hand for a reward like Leslie suggested. Like. He bit me accidentally going for the treat. Like. (his hestitation going into my hand is less). Did one of these leading into me, like in front moving backwards and he shoved his head right into me.   Decided to stop before I lose a body part, lol.

Then did a little bit of come to heel. I remembered my fiance's cue and tried to "layer" it in. Result was sloppy but dog relaxed so call it good.

I grabbed a toy and tried to introduce the idea of a toy drop in heel position. We played tug. He growled all over the tug game (normal for him when playing with my fiance), so that put a smile on my face.

I took 5 milkbones, so 15 - 20 treats session. Short. Good.

Funny how a little bit of effort goes a long way? :-\" I think tomorrow I will train his name as a command. He responds to his name and recalls on an average level, so it's not going to be breakthrough session, but something easy for him, familiar, and IMO important groundwork.

Saw my trainer today, he stopped into the clinic something about a microchip scanner malfunction at the animal shelter? anyhow I was at a break between grooming and got to see his mali. I told him about this thread and he said "forget it, you know what to do. do it." Ummm.. OK. heck of a vote of confidence. I guess we will all see how this unfolds.

I can't train my dog formally through July because my neighbor is finishing her for 4-H. So Hunter is my current "victim". :twisted: I don't know how far I'll take it. Some familiarity, reduce stress, some semblance of a bond would be great. He could be a sweet little AKC OB dog, but wth, not really interested.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Anne i am the least experienced trainer here so can't add to whats already been said but you seem like one,

OBSESSED, HYSTERICAL person, 

U SCARE THE CRAP OUT OF ME,

i'm not surprised yr dog growls at you, i would run as far and as fast as i could from you.

why don't you just stop bothering that dog. 

WHAT ARE U TRYING TO PROVE.???


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I'n in awe of this topic, as in..aww this can't be for ****ing real can it ?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'n in awe of this topic, as in..aww this can't be for ****ing real can it ?


yup, for reals.  responses range from helpful (thank you) to funny.

@ peter -- nothing to prove. Just trying to make life better for everyone here. Heaven forbid I take action to help a dog relax, play and be happy? Sounds absolutely criminal, doesn't it. :twisted:

I'll stop haunting and post back with TRAINING info, questions, ideas. Hope for video again soon. Want to know if you guys see a change in Hunter's attitude and if I'm fixing my handling.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Have I told you that you probably should get a different hobby ? Maybe fish or something ?


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Ok guys does this sound like a caring, concerned dog trainer? Anne is this stuff still going on? 

Quotes from Anne regarding Hunter see thread My BF's Dog Hates Me (http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f52/my-bfs-dog-hates-me-15532/)

*



If I have a training pouch and treats, he shuts down. If my bf is home, he runs and hides behind his chair.

Click to expand...

*


> If we're out in the yard with a toy and he thinks it is a game, no problem training him.
> 
> *If he thinks I am trying to get him to do something *- like if I'm trying the herd him from one room to another so I can wash the floor -* he growls at me. He growls at me other times. He ALWAYS gets a firm crack on the snout from me or my bf. We do not tolerate it at all.*
> 
> ...


Clearly your not!!! Liar, Liar crazy's pants on fire hanging on a telephone wire! Liar, Liar crazy's pants on fire hanging on a telephone wire! Liar, Liar crazy's pants on fire hanging on a telephone wire! Liar, Liar crazy's pants on fire hanging on a telephone wire!



> I'd like the dog to not be miserable.


I that's why you let this go on...HUH?


> *Because between me and my dogs, he has to compete for toys, attention and lost his spot on the couch - and usually doesn't even get his old dog bed because my dogs like it best. He doesn't lay on the couch for hours curled up and watching tv with bf anymore. He doesn't even get to go out fishing without having another dog (and me and my son) along with. He doesn't get to go hiking with bf anymore.*
> 
> My adult dog IS the dominant dog here. My dog goes up to bf's dog. They sniff noses and my dog's tail goes straight up in the air and bf's tail drops. *The puppy harasses him and tries to steal away his toys when they are playing fetch. My dogs can run faster than him. My dogs are pretty good at harassing him.
> 
> bf thinks it is a little funny, and not worried about it. Thinks the dog will get used to it sooner or later.*


Yeah this really sounds like someone truly concerned about the BF's dog not being miserable doesn't it...not! No, actually appears to be the* POLAR* opposite more like you were getting off on the fact that Hunter was getting stream roll by everyone!

So here we are about a year later and you've picked up where you left off with Hunter. Why are you so driven into scrambling Hunter brain and emotions? Is it because yours are and misery loves company? 

Bottom line: You are unable to recognize basic behavior and definitely are no a dog trainer! Because dog trainer knows when the stop! I dare say your not even a dog handler! On top of it your a liar. 

Liar, liar crazy's pants on fire hanging on a telephone wire! Liar, Liar crazy's pants on fire hanging on a telephone wire!


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