# Testing a REAL STUD DOG?



## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

I have been watching people rush out to import the next GREAT STUD dogs from Europe. I am talking about GSD's, MALI's and DS's imparticular. I watch the various videos online of these dogs doing their national sport in the country of origin and I then watch them come here to the US and videos are being posted of the same exact things they were doing over seas, just new decoy and handler. Truthfully, all Im see is the dog biting in sterile enviorments, no pressure from the decoys, no nerve testing,no enviormental challenges for the dogs. I'm not overly impressed with them, but I am with a few. I got a yellow lab here at my feet that bites half way as decent as some of these so called monsters! I can get a decoy to walk around with the lab hanging off the sleeve and stop occassionally and start again and yell for good measure! All I'm seeing is dogs being sent for bites nothing more! I would rather see raw footage of the newly crowned stud dogs being pushed to his limits, taken out of his comfort zone and come out with flying colors, if he can! So with all my personal crap being said and out of the way.....HOW WOULD YOU TEST A REAL STUD DOG? We can leave out hips, elbows and anything health related. Just in the work! I wish we had a National Stud Competition here in the US...no control work and no outs...just bitework under the hardest and harshest conditions!


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

When I say leave out the health related issues, I mean superior overall health is a given!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I must be missing something my own self here? Because a dog can do well in bitework doesn't have anything to do with being a stud outside the dog has proved himself as a worker.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

So Don you dont think nerves should be tested or exposed....just because he works well...doesnt mean he is very sound


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

So what do you look for Don...maybe Im missing something ?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I would rather see the control work and outs. 

A hard dog that can be made to work for the handler and still perform at a high level has seen much more pressure than any decoy could dish out.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> When I say leave out the health related issues, I mean superior overall health is a given!


That's kind of a fantasy then isn't it ? I mean superior overall health as well as all the other desirable attributes, can they be separated that easily... I wouldn't have thought so particularly in relation to gsds but I am no breeder. Just curious.


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

I started out as a crazy horse person before I was a crazy dog person...and I was involved with Warmbloods. I'm really a fan of their Stallion Tests and Keurings....I believe that most Warmblood Stallions need to do a 100 day test that involves performance, temperment, health, structure and the like in order to be approved for breeding. Not saying a dog needs to go away for 100 days...but 30-60 would generally be sufficient.

The problem would be setting up an organization like that, finding the people to administer and man it...and then paying for it O,o It would have to be breed specific and people would have to work ea. stud dogs under as similiar situations as possible. Test structure, strength, breedability (semen tests and the like) genetic tests, temperments....putting the dog through the loops for such a period of time should in theory expose most issues...though not all.

~Cate


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

I agree.....but some of these new owners are afraid of the new dog and wouldnt dare correct him.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> That's kind of a fantasy then isn't it ? I mean superior overall health as well as all the other desirable attributes, can they be separated that easily... I wouldn't have thought so particularly in relation to gsds but I am no breeder. Just curious.


Like I said if the dog is being called a stud dog then superior health is a "given". Anyone who claims to have a great representation of their working breed with a health issue is a fool for even calling him a stud! I only wanted to put health aside in order for us to get to the meat and potatoes of testing studs and not have to talk about health.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I want to see the progeny when bred to different quality females. Stud dog = able to produce well.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I want to see the progeny when bred to different quality females. Stud dog = able to produce well.


Good point!.....How many of his progeny would you like to see and off of how many different females?


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> I have been watching people rush out to import the next GREAT STUD dogs from Europe. I am talking about GSD's, MALI's and DS's imparticular. I watch the various videos online of these dogs doing their national sport in the country of origin and I then watch them come here to the US and videos are being posted of the same exact things they were doing over seas, just new decoy and handler. Truthfully, all Im see is the dog biting in sterile enviorments, no pressure from the decoys, no nerve testing,no enviormental challenges for the dogs. I'm not overly impressed with them, but I am with a few. I got a yellow lab here at my feet that bites half way as decent as some of these so called monsters! I can get a decoy to walk around with the lab hanging off the sleeve and stop occassionally and start again and yell for good measure! All I'm seeing is dogs being sent for bites nothing more! I would rather see raw footage of the newly crowned stud dogs being pushed to his limits, taken out of his comfort zone and come out with flying colors, if he can! So with all my personal crap being said and out of the way.....HOW WOULD YOU TEST A REAL STUD DOG? We can leave out hips, elbows and anything health related. Just in the work! I wish we had a National Stud Competition here in the US...no control work and no outs...just bitework under the hardest and harshest conditions!


Ron next time mike has a seminar and has the crazy special armed forces guys up they will test if a dog should be considered a stud dog or not,, just make sure you can stomache the truth lol=D>


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## Mike Ritland (Apr 11, 2009)

I think you should test for/look for whatever you want in a prospective puppy you might be buying. If you want to see environmental stability, go test the stud dog you think you might want a puppy off of in whatever environment you want to see him in. You are more than welcome to come to my place and test Dingo how ever you would like


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Nevermind. Someone else said what I was going to say. We were typing at the same time.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> Good point!.....How many of his progeny would you like to see and off of how many different females?


2-3 females of different lines that have produced well with other males (not maiden bitches if possible) and judge the offspring. If I seen really nice pups from these breeding then I'm thinking I may have a stud dog here.

There was a crazy, hard police dog in LA that I wanted to use. He was Cat 2 NVBK Belg Import. Great NVBK pedigree...One problem he had NO interest in the girls! ](*,) He was a great working dog, but NOT a stud dog. What a pity.:evil:


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

hillel schwartzman said:


> Ron next time mike has a seminar and has the crazy special armed forces guys up they will test if a dog should be considered a stud dog or not,, just make sure you can stomache the truth lol=D>


Sorry Hill,I don't like seeing dogs tested where they live!


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> 2-3 females of different lines that have produced well with other males (not maiden bitches if possible) and judge the offspring. If I seen really nice pups from these breeding then I'm thinking I may have a stud dog here.
> 
> There was a crazy, hard police dog in LA that I wanted to use. He was Cat 2 NVBK Belg Import. Great NVBK pedigree...One problem he had NO interest in the girls! ](*,) He was a great working dog, but NOT a stud dog. What a pity.:evil:


LOL sorry Debbie for laughing...not laughing at you laughing at the dog:mrgreen: ...OK I agree with you....2 or 3 females is more than enough opportunity to prove himself reproductively


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Mike Ritland said:


> I think you should test for/look for whatever you want in a prospective puppy you might be buying. If you want to see environmental stability, go test the stud dog you think you might want a puppy off of in whatever environment you want to see him in. You are more than welcome to come to my place and test Dingo how ever you would like


Kool! I will hold you to that Mike!


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> LOL sorry Debbie for laughing...not laughing at you laughing at the dog:mrgreen:


The worse thing was the expression on the face of his handler.It was if his manhood was in question. He was so depressed that his dog had no sex drive.:sad:


This dog was the prize K9 and had many apprehensions to his credit. One very hard street dog. The dog came for over at Willy's in Belgium and went back to Oke. Good bloodlines, but it's all hypothetical whether the dog would of, should of produced great ones like himself....because the dog couldn't.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> Sorry Hill,I don't like seeing dogs tested where they live!


Maybe you miss understood ,, these guys will test anyones dog not mikes but anyones and you will see what u have...
Now just ask what lines you a looking for and how much pressure can the dog take by handler and decoy and what it produces time and time again...That is what i would consider in a stud dog DH\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

I didnt misunderstand....... you werent clear! AH...and this isnt DH!


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> I didnt misunderstand....... you werent clear! AH...and this isnt DH!


Then stop using his name and come out of the closet.. LMAO\\/


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Maybe I should of said this at the start .....I like all the major dog sports...but as a prospective buyer of young dogs or pups...shouldnt stud dog owners put out footage of the dogs doing something other than what they were trained for. Attempt to show that hey....this dog is good at everything , not just what he was trained for? Im just asking.


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

maybe they are ??? maybe there dogs havent worked indoors before and they are taping them doin so, or on slippery surface....you just dont know what "holes" as dog has until you test them in that environment


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> Maybe I should of said this at the start .....I like all the major dog sports...but as a prospective buyer of young dogs or pups...shouldnt stud dog owners put out footage of the dogs doing something other than what they were trained for. Attempt to show that hey....this dog is good at everything , not just what he was trained for? Im just asking.


 I guess the answer would be for you or someone you trust test the dog. Bottom line is you are going to breed or buy a dog on someones word unless you can see for yourself. So if you trust the person you limit yourself from getting burned...Just remember in any bussiness you will get burned sooner or later..


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> ...One problem he had NO interest in the girls! ](*,) He was a great working dog, but NOT a stud dog. What a pity.:evil:


this brings up a question i have thought to myself, but never broached with the breeders involved: had really nice dog that just wasn't capable of completing a tie, kinda not interested in the girls. went ahead and collected him anyway. 

but my thought was : if he's not interested in breeding, why perpetuate that? this dog was raised by them fr 8 weeks (so no trauma in hx), multiple titled in his discipline plus practical work. is the lack of interest even a heritable trait?


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Wow! Good question....but he obviously was produced by his father...good question!


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

ann schnerre said:


> this brings up a question i have thought to myself, but never broached with the breeders involved: had really nice dog that just wasn't capable of completing a tie, kinda not interested in the girls. went ahead and collected him anyway.
> 
> but my thought was : if he's not interested in breeding, why perpetuate that? this dog was raised by them fr 8 weeks (so no trauma in hx), multiple titled in his discipline plus practical work. is the lack of interest even a heritable trait?


I don't know the answer. The times I have used A.I. when a stud dog "couldn't" was only on very old males with "bad backs" that have had a history of breeding naturally.

The police k9 that I wanted to use was never used and was in good shape and probably about 5-6 years old at the time. I asked in Belgium after this happened because I was at the club of the breeder and then later at the club of the owner/trainer. The dog was never used there. I joking said maybe that's why he was sold to the US.

I wouldn't want to keep females that couldn't breed and whelp naturally nor males that could not breed naturally. I have 2 breeds that are more what we call "natural" breeds. 

There would probably be no more bulldogs left if it wasn't for vet intervention for breeding and whelping though.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

It's a brilliant idea, if there were such a thing, doubtful it could ever come to fruition though, parties involved would have too much to lose by laying it on the line like that, probably find out that a lot of big names are just that..........names.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> Maybe I should of said this at the start .....I like all the major dog sports...but as a prospective buyer of young dogs or pups...shouldnt stud dog owners put out footage of the dogs doing something other than what they were trained for. Attempt to show that hey....this dog is good at everything , not just what he was trained for? Im just asking.


Like Therapy Dog work and Sheep herding? :lol: I know several of mine would knock all the people down, attack the wheels of the wheel chairs and bite the sheep. 

I'm sure my dogs are NOT good at everything. I'm not good at everything either as I lack the education and training..darn it! #-o


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_...Just remember in any bussiness you will get burned sooner or later.._

Or, more often than not.

That's also one of the first thoughts that I'd consider, is _How has the dog already produced?_ If not so well, then you have to ask _why?_ Because he was never brought to a decent female. Or, when the dog _has produced well_, then why? _Because_ he was brought to a decent female?

In german shepherds, there's only very few who have proven themselves well in performance sports, and also their offspring. Orry is a really good example. There's enough great dogs that never produced anything of worth, or didn't have the right opportunity to. Remember the saying, "If you like the dog, then go to the sire". That is, if it's not too late in their career.

Every great producer has to start somewhere of course. So what would help you predict _who will eventually become a great producer?_ What are some of the things you look for?


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## Greg Whelehan (Dec 1, 2008)

Ron.....
What would you like to see in "testing a stud dog."


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Drew Peirce said:


> It's a brilliant idea, if there were such a thing, doubtful it could ever come to fruition though, parties involved would have too much to lose by laying it on the line like that, probably find out that a lot of big names are just that..........names.


That's what I'm talking about.....lay it all out on the line and when the smoke clears see who is left standing!


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Your in the inner circle now greg, the nucleous


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ron Davidson said:


> So what do you look for Don...maybe Im missing something ?


It's hard for me in these discusions Ron because I put them together and look at what is produced. If I don't like it and I think a dog will produce better with a different bitch, I try that. If I don't like that one either, the dog is outa here. To me, I don't care if the dog is a world beater, if he can't reproduce well, he is worth nothing regardless of titles because his day in the sun is really just a day. There will be no offspring to take his place. To others, he is still a world beater even if he can't produce so they sell them as stud dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is something I used to do if I really thought I liked something about a dog. I bred them to a proven bitch when they were about 7 mo. If they couldn't produce, they were outa here. No point wasting a lot of time if the dog can't produce well from a breeders standpoint. That would work for trainers also. Breed them first and see if they have the makings before putting in the time and money.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Greg Whelehan said:


> Ron.....
> What would you like to see in "testing a stud dog."


Basically, anything other than simple bite work,I feel its up to the stud dog owner to impress the working dog public. Be creative...do whatever! Here's why.....if I have a female that I'm looking to breed and they are ..lets say 4 males that I'm interested in.....now I have go out and test each individual dog all over the US, not practical, but if I see raw unedited footage ...now I may have an "IDEA" about the dog. I know I know...it can all be trained or rehearsed, but I can see atleast that I can maybe narrow my choices down from 4 to 2 males! I'm just saying!


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> Your in the inner circle now greg, the nucleous


#-o#-o

So what is the real test of a stud dog?????
Time is the real test..
If you want to breed to particular stud dog for any reason only time will prove his worthiness...
You are rolling the dice ..just make sure you place your bets w/ the house...=;=D>=D>


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

How he produces is something you have to determine after they've been bred to tested and proven females, but before that can even be considered he has to meet "stud" standards, and that bar should be set as high as possible.

Hillel, what I meant was greg now owns what I know to be a "real" stud, not a name or an empty title.


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

that pretty deep hill.....did you read that in a fortune cookie ????=D>


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is something I used to do if I really thought I liked something about a dog. I bred them to a proven bitch when they were about 7 mo. If they couldn't produce, they were outa here. No point wasting a lot of time if the dog can't produce well from a breeders standpoint. That would work for trainers also. Breed them first and see if they have the makings before putting in the time and money.


WOW.......thats some of the realiest **** I ever heard!


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> that pretty deep hill.....did you read that in a fortune cookie ????=D>


Yes grass hopper


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

hillel schwartzman said:


> Yes grass hopper


I daniel son


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

hillel schwartzman said:


> #-o#-o
> 
> So what is the real test of a stud dog?????
> 
> ...


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Drew Peirce said:


> It's a brilliant idea, if there were such a thing, doubtful it could ever come to fruition though, parties involved would have too much to lose by laying it on the line like that, probably find out that a lot of big names are just that..........names.


Maybe the US needs a Stud Dog Nationals or Competition.=D>


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I wouldn't want to keep females that couldn't breed and whelp naturally nor males that could not breed naturally.


me either, which is why the question came to mind (these are "natural" dogs, BTW). i have a sneaky feeling this may be going on a whole lot in this particular breed just from the "no big deal, everyone does it" kind of attitude i got. 

ron--maybe it came from his dam's side?

just wondered what thoughts in this "world" were; a bit OT, but not much.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Possibly Ann...thats pretty damn interesting though!


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> hillel schwartzman said:
> 
> 
> > #-o#-o
> ...


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

if i can physically test the dog in person I test all aspects of the dogs workability and sociability. I like dogs that have a "switch" so i will test his bite work and see how long it takes him to switch off afterwards and return to his "normal" self. I will test his hunt drive but in a senario he can win, just to see how long he will hunt for something thats not there.Environmentals i do away from his normal environment like the kennel he sees everyday.Take him to a shopping plaza and see how he is with motion doors ,running kids,cars,loud trucks,slippery & shiny floors...etc. Retrieves i do with not so everyday objects like an axe handle,big metal wrenchs,chains..etc. anything i can pick up and throw is fair game (if it wont hurt him). Pretty much what ever i have at my disposal at the time is what i use. be creative, if someone is using a riding lawnmower take the dog over put him in a down and have them drive within a few feet of the dog.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

hillel schwartzman said:


> Ron Davidson said:
> 
> 
> > How about this test DH...
> ...


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

thats after the dogs health,pedigree,and consistancy of his offspring has been evaluated


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Hill man why you got to be so dam brutal, LOL:lol:. Hey I bet your boy would do just fine with this shit. I know theres some good blood running through that dog:-$.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Of course I believe that a stud dog should be an extreme specimen of the breed. Everyone will differ a little in terms of what traits are more important to them so I wont go into that. I will go out on a limb and say that in a true test of a dog, not many dogs on the planet would outperform Endor as a working dog. However as a stud dog there may be several who are much better. I believe that the true measure of a stud dog is what he can / has produced. The big issue is that even then people need to know how to breed the dog to the lines that mesh the best. In order to keep the working traits of the offspring the way that the breeder thinks they should be. Lately I have seen so many people who call me and ask only about the way a dog bites. They seem to forget that the true measure of a great working dog is a dog who has the toy drive, the environmental nerves, the athletisism, the courage, the health, the stability, the ability to use his nose, the overall intensity that is required of a true working dog, as well as hard full grips, fast couragous attacks and, reall aggression toward the man in combat. There is more to a dog than how well he bites, but it seams like people forget than sometimes and get all caught up in how hard the dog attacks and how hard his grip is. I feel that the dogs who are chosen for a breeding program need to be dogs who have proven to produce all of the traits that I mentioned above.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

Finally!!!!! A GOOD answer to my question! AH Hill! lol.....how about siblings? How should the stud dogs siblings be viewed, or should they be left out of the equation,Mike?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> Finally!!!!! A GOOD answer to my question! AH Hill! lol.....how about siblings? How should the stud dogs siblings be viewed, or should they be left out of the equation,Mike?


 I also think this is very important. When I look at a stud dog I also look at any siblings that I can see. When I bought Arko I looked at sevaral offspring from him and was very impressed. I also looked at his full brother Ringo and was very impressed with Ringo and his offspring as well. I have also seen several other dogs from Castor (Arko and Ringo's father) and they were all very strong dogs with extremely high working drives. With Carlos I saw his littermate sister Sara who was an excellent bitch, I saw a couple litters from Sara and they were excellent, and even though I have never tested Wibo I am certain that he is a very strong dog as well, I have had a few Wibo sons here and they were all very similar to Carlos sons so I know that those lines produce very well. I also have seen litters from Carlos and Arko daughters in Holland who were perhaps the best litters I have seen, that was the biggest reason that I bought Carlos, was to use him in my own breeding program with the lines that I already have here from Arko.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Ron Davidson said:


> Possibly Ann...thats pretty damn interesting though!


i get those on occasion, ron, LOL.

but to be clear: the particular breed/er i'm talking about isn't in the working dog world as we on the forum normally talk about it it: ie, not into bitework.


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## Greg Whelehan (Dec 1, 2008)

Ron Davidson said:


> Sorry Hill,I don't like seeing dogs tested where they live!


Ron:
Most the dogs that are at Mikes that are tested by SF or other gov't agencies aren't at Mikes long enough to become comfortable in the situation. Mike can contest to this more but some dogs come off the plane and guys are waiting to test them as soon as they get back to the kennel.

Mike is a lucky guy to have Gerban sending him some of the best dogs around to pass these tough test.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Greg Whelehan said:


> Mike is a lucky guy to have Gerban sending him some of the best dogs around to pass these tough test.



That may be the understatement of the decade............


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## Greg Whelehan (Dec 1, 2008)

I don’t post much on these boards but I have recently imported a new stud dog for my business and also purchased another dog from overseas that have been trained strictly in the KNPV program.
I can tell you the first thing I did with the new imports is take them to a in-door building with dark spots, slippery floors, bathrooms, inside locker room showers, etc, something they have NEVER SEEN BEFORE. Not only did I test them in bite work, amount of courage and overall temperament I also tested their hunt, retrieve drive and over all environmental nerve in all these areas. I think just testing a grip monster; hard attacking dog inside off grass/dirt is not a true test. Most dogs in the KNPV program will bite hard and come fast so loading them up in a new environment for bite work only, I am guessing you will see not as many issues. I can tell you both the dogs I tested never trained or have been inside a building, mostly from kennel run to field and back. 
I had a similar conversation with someone a couple weeks ago about this same subject and they said, “yeah but the other dog is titled so I would stud to him.” Is a titled dog better than an untitled dog for studding purposes? I have seen some top “titled” dogs bred and the puppies go for crazy money because the stud dog won a championship or was high in trial in numerous trials. Well I worked that same dog and it was nothing but a clean, point dog that would never fault, but because of the “status” of the dog winning this and that people flocked to these puppies.
Environmental nerves are #1 for me and I think that stands true for most good breeders, trainers, competitors, etc. I’d much rather breed to a bitch that has super nerves and bomb proof that a bitch that bites hard, or comes in hard on attacks but lacks nerve. I think you have to decide what you’re looking for. If you looking for a stud dog that produces a ton of aggression but not as much hunt and retrieve drive or a stud that is producing sport dogs you as the “purchaser” must decided your priorities. 
Understanding what certain lines produces and carefully watching these lines over many years also is important. I don’t think watching videos of dogs doing this and that is a true test of a good stud dog. You must look at health, bloodlines, etc then you must test the dogs yourself. This way you see things in the dog you like and don’t like first hand and make your decision.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

The environmental nerves are the roots of the tree so to speak, the foundation of any great dog has to start there, without the bankvault nerves it really doesnt matter what else you have, your dead in the water.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is something I used to do if I really thought I liked something about a dog. I bred them to a proven bitch when they were about 7 mo. If they couldn't produce, they were outa here. No point wasting a lot of time if the dog can't produce well from a breeders standpoint. That would work for trainers also. Breed them first and see if they have the makings before putting in the time and money.


I breed my freakin' RATS later than he breeds his dogs. You just can't make this crap up.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

what you are proposing makes a lot of sense, but will never happen, maybe with some individual importer or some individual dog sometime somewhere, but in general, it's just a nice idea, that's it. Too much money and ego at stake.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Test a STUD Dog. Breed him to 10 difrent bisthes and se if he produces fire. if not hes not a stud dog and al the test in the world done on him is usless


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

I still like my hockey rink test...lol
It is up to you to determine what you want as a stud dog,character traits, health,all the drives you want,,bloodlines ect..
The hard thing now is with technology every one wants to see what the dog is really made of.. But keep in mind if you want to see my stud dog do the hockey rink test.. I can guarantee the film is going to show you want you want or i would not publish it...
Bottom line deal with people you trust and also trust your gut...
That would make the best stud dog choice..
What you see isn't always what you get...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I wish we had a National Stud Competition here in the US...no control work and no outs...just bitework under the hardest and harshest conditions!

Here you go !!!!! These people live for this shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ROL6xwTUis

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh my goodness. 

jeff, you constantly amaze me with your ability to find stuff on you-tube.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

those crunchfest vids were posted here


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I wish we had a National Stud Competition here in the US...no control work and no outs...just bitework under the hardest and harshest conditions!
> 
> Here you go !!!!! These people live for this shit.
> 
> ...


amazing jeff. what was the purpose of this post in relation to the thread? To bag on someone and insult good people having fun with their dogs?


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Crunchfest video - looks like people having a great time with their dogs. What does this have to do with "testing a real stud dog?" - is there something wrong with people doing sport to enjoy their dogs and training? Looks like a great time to me, wish they had activities like that around here.

molly


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

These types of competitions happen all over the country. I bet there will be a few in your area, Molly.

There is one coming up soon in Chicagoland to benefit Tom Riche's family.

Troy S. and Heather Charnota are putting it all together..

All proceeds will go to the family. Should be a good weekend.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> Test a STUD Dog. Breed him to 10 difrent bisthes and se if he produces fire. if not hes not a stud dog and al the test in the world done on him is usless



Andreas,

What do you do with all the puppies from these ten experimental breedings, use them as executive Personal
Protection Dog candidates? LOL


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I wish we had a National Stud Competition here in the US...no control work and no outs...just bitework under the hardest and harshest conditions!
> 
> Here you go !!!!! These people live for this shit.
> 
> ...


Jeff,

What's the problem with this video? A little bit of obedience, some fun with puppies and little lap dogs, decent bites, nice
call offs and redirects and no judges being attacked or clip boards needed :-0

Doesn't look half bad to me.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

> Remember the saying, "If you like the dog, then go to the sire".


If you say"If you like the dog, then go to the *parents*" it would make sense. Dam is as important as the sire.

Only thing you need get tested to pick a stud dog is your own eyes. 
If I'm interested in a dog, I'll observe him many many times and in as many different situations as possible. Also watch some offspring.
Not interested in titles or scores.
A stud dog has to be "allround" and match all the qualities I'm looking for.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Hopfully you have a nice tested male and have peopel that want pups from him. BUT to say that you have a STUD dog without breeding him to 5-10 bitshes is just hoppla. A STUD produces, Thats the main thing, Hopfulle even better than him self, And with difrent Bitshes.

A Male dog used to breed based on his preformances might be a good dog, but untill hes proven Throuh his ofspring hes not a STUD dog...


Thomas Barriano said:


> Andreas,
> 
> What do you do with all the puppies from these ten experimental breedings, use them as executive Personal
> Protection Dog candidates? LOL


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