# "Real Bites"



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

So what are "Real Bites"? Some advertise the dog has had x number of real bites prior to a sale or for advertisement and sometimes in general conversation. What do you think constitutes a real bite?

For me? I beleive a dog that was sent/commanded to intentially bite someone. 

I do not beleive a broken leash in civil work, a dog coming up leash, or a dog missing the tug and getting your hand has any relevance when the term "Real Bite" comes into play, those are accidents.

Your thoughts?


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> So what are "Real Bites"? Some advertise the dog has had x number of real bites prior to a sale or for advertisement and sometimes in general conversation. What do you think constitutes a real bite?
> 
> For me? I beleive a dog that was sent/commanded to intentially bite someone.
> 
> ...


I can see it now. Some dog gets loose, grabs your arm
and tears you up, you know, bones and tendons sticking
out, blood all over.

They take you to the hospital, your friends fill out the
forms for you. The doc looks over the form, walks up
to you and says in a sneering voice:

Get your pathetic, whinney ass out of here, that ain't no real bite.

Just because some dumb ass drops a leash does not make it
for real !


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> I can see it now. Some dog gets loose, grabs your arm
> and tears you up, you know, bones and tendons sticking
> out, blood all over.
> 
> ...


 
Very funny! I can't stop laughing, HOWEVER, of course they are bites, if the dog contacts skin with his teeth its a bite, but as far a people claiming there dogs bite for real, they so many real bites, he will eat you etc etc. 

If he does have a real bite or many and your advertising that, it should say how these bites were attained as they could all be fear bites or YES A DUMB ASS that got bit doing silly shit.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Thats like the guy who comes up to you in downtown manhattan in the long trenchcoat wanting to sell you "real rolex" watches.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

So they send a dog in a building search,
he comes on a 12 year old kid who panics
and runs.

Dog nails him, kid pisses his pants.

Is that a "real" bite ?

Or a dumb ass broad in uniform puts her
service dog on a punk in cuffs. ( Happened
right down the street from you.)

Is that a "real" bite ?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> So they send a dog in a building search,
> he comes on a 12 year old kid who panics
> and runs.
> 
> ...


 
:-\":-\":-\" Forget it!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jim Engel said:


> I can see it now. Some dog gets loose, grabs your arm
> and tears you up, you know, bones and tendons sticking
> out, blood all over.
> 
> ...


 Jim you lost your mind! You forgot about the Animal Control folks coming out and putting your dog in LOCKDOWN for 30 days. Then the Division of Licensing taking your account into review for PRODUCING a civil dog w/o permits, and then the local news producing video of another BSL dog to place under the gun!!!!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody. 

If a dog is being sold for a specific purpose, and a dog has a bite in one of those circumstances or like circumstances, then IN MY OPINION, that person should state the dog has had a real bite.

Also when you get the dogs from a vendor, and the dog has come up leash, they should indicate the dog is "sharp, handler aggressive" so the handler is ready for it. 

To clear something up, I have seen a dog that would bite the handler and not a decoy. No shit, a European (who shall remain nameless because I don't remember his name) brought a dog in to test, Duke, I was decoying. the dog was brought out and attempted to bite the handler over and over. I had to take him back to the kennels because I was in a bitesuit. He nailed me a few times on the way to the kennels.

Not a real bite, but a real shitter. Biting the handler means nothing but just that. Biting the handler.

Real bite = in the application intended.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Hopefully, every police K9 unit can provide you with their "bite ratio". We really really like to have a very low bite ratio. While each bite is certainly documented. the ratio is deployments (the dog is used) vs. canine apprehension (bites). 

DFrost


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Jody.
> 
> If a dog is being sold for a specific purpose, and a dog has a bite in one of those circumstances or like circumstances, then IN MY OPINION, that person should state the dog has had a real bite.
> 
> ...


 
I agree totally, I was trying to get more feedback, but gave up. Thats exactly what I mean, a bite is just that, a bite! (Came up leash, whatever, a real bite to me is just what you said application intended). 

If I had a sport, PPD, or Street Dog and I sent him on someone and or he defended my property etc. Yes, I consider that a real bite, thats what they were instructed/told/commended/trained to do and came from me.

I see dogs advertised for sale at 6-7 months with a real bite some younger. First thing I question, what is a real bite or how did it occur? Here is what most say, "Well, he went to bite the tug and missed and got my arm, I was tore up man, he doesn't care about tugs, he wants skin"! Well, to me the dog thought he was getting the tug, he missed, but maintained, GREAT for the dog, but the intentions were not that, thus an accidental bite in my book. (Yes it was for real as some say, but the dog was not sent or commanded to bite the person, he was sent or stim was given for him to get the tug) 

See what I am getting at? If that was the case everyone who has 8wk old puppies have real bites as any good ones are at your ankles all the time! :lol:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody.

A common practice it the united states is....Flesh work.

In this common practice, a person of questionable sensibility will take payment for a bite. Payment can be in the form of thunderbird, MD 20/20, crack, money, etc. Got to make sure you stay in the fight with this method as the crack head/drunk may fight back rendering your 6 month old useless. You can incorporate table training, and KNPV frontal attacks over chairs with said questionable person. This will make the dog experience a low defensive threshold and thus attack with more precision, strength, character and will reduce the crack/alcohol affects on the dog.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Jody.
> 
> A common practice it the united states is....Flesh work.
> 
> In this common practice, a person of questionable sensibility will take payment for a bite. Payment can be in the form of thunderbird, MD 20/20, crack, money, etc. Got to make sure you stay in the fight with this method as the crack head/drunk may fight back rendering your 6 month old useless. You can incorporate table training, and KNPV frontal attacks over chairs with said questionable person. This will make the dog experience a low defensive threshold and thus attack with more precision, strength, character and will reduce the crack/alcohol affects on the dog.


Yeah, never thought of it, and we do this all the time with the adult dogs in trailer parks, under bridges, abandoned homes with bums, subways etc.....

Good Point! Gonna try it out next weekend!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dave what's the snow like your way? Will you guys train when it lets up? How dog the dogs react to bite work in it?


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Jody,

I agree. A real bite on a decoy or accidental bite is drastically different from a real bite with a sent dog. The dynamics of the situations are different.

I've had my share of "real" bites as a decoy. In those situations the dog was immediately outed, focus shifted to the decoy injury and the dog was ignored, so to speak. I believe most of the dogs actually took the situation as a CORRECTION for the "real" bite.

On the other side of the coin, as a decoy, I worked a group of sport dogs belonging to a bunch of guys in Detroit. This was 20 years ago so take it for what it was... These guys decided to "proof" their dogs. They went to great, and illegal lengths to get their dogs real bites. More like hunting than anything else... Most of their dogs passed muster. It was interesting the difference in the dogs I had worked before the proofing and after. The dogs were not the same animals mentally. They seemed to have found themselves and began to apply their foundation training in new and novel ways. Their bites became "punishing" and they were actually rather dangerous to work, mainly because if I didn't show a pain reaction to their bite they would try something else until they did. The suit meant nothing to them anymore and in fact they understood after all those "years" of suit work that the suit was not the place to hurt the decoy/victim. They tended to look for something "fleshy" to bite, not cushy. They knew all humans wear clothes, but some wore clothes that protected them and some don't. They acted accordingly...

The last real bite I took as a decoy, only the dog and I knew it had happened. I finished the exercise and made sure the dog felt they had hurt me. (in fact worked 7 more dogs with the blood flowing.) No "correction" for doing the right thing. That dog really turned on!

I take it this is what you mean.

As for someone selling a dog with real bites, I'd have to know what they think that means too.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> Jody,
> 
> I agree. A real bite on a decoy or accidental bite is drastically different from a real bite with a sent dog. The dynamics of the situations are different.
> 
> ...


Glad to see someone else is on the same page! Thanks

I do know what you mean, we get dogs that come back with multiple "Real Bites" and it is like they flipped the switch, totally different dog. We focus on other things when they return, control, tracking and detection, patrol is the last thing they need!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dave what's the snow like your way? Will you guys train when it lets up? How dog the dogs react to bite work in it?


 
We got a fair bit of snow. It is almost up to my knees, around 16-18" I think. It is the south, so all the bread, milk and eggs were all purchased in a large radius. The southerners don't normally do this, but they do when it snows. People that don't cook are drawn to the stores like zombies...I don't really get it.


I got a sick boxer right now, kennel cough, so no training. I took my other one out today and let her run in the snow and get some exercise. She hasn't exihited any syptoms and is 11 and been around hundreds of dogs and doesn't ever seem to get it.

I have done bitework previously, don't remember where in a few inches and the dogs seemed to enjoy it. Recalls were fun to watch and easier to train. Almost like slick floors when they can't straight into the decoy.

The plan was to do some, and maybe we will tomorrow with the healthy folks.

Thanks for asking!!!


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Funny how training for the "other things" can actually get easier with these dogs when there is some civil work at the end of the scenarios once in a while though... They become "inspired" to track, etc!

From what I have experienced, the handler better change too. LOL They ain't in Kansas anymore! Control can become a problem if not addressed a long the way. If done properly, the old Moreau statement of "The dog loves the one who takes him to bite." remains true!


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> :-\":-\":-\" Forget it!


 Jody, I get what you are trying to ask, and I agree with you, a real bite would of course be one with no equipment to ease the sting, the examples others used, I would call an accident or failure to control a dog on a handler's part, I got hit in the leg at a good friend of ours last summer with nothing on but a pair of running pants on, the bitch went over run and found me out in the field, I still consider this an accident, although the pain was for sure real. I just think people could be a little more specific, when they say "real bite".


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

charles Turner said:


> Jody, I get what you are trying to ask, and I agree with you, a real bite would of course be one with no equipment to ease the sting, the examples others used, I would call an accident or failure to control a dog on a handler's part, I got hit in the leg at a good friend of ours last summer with nothing on but a pair of running pants on, the bitch went over run and found me out in the field, I still consider this an accident, although the pain was for sure real. I just think people could be a little more specific, when they say "real bite".


 
LOL, I remember you telling me that one.....I consider that an accident as well, but definately a real bite! \\/


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> So they send a dog in a building search,
> he comes on a 12 year old kid who panics
> and runs.
> 
> ...


Ya, that’s a real bit. The dog was sent and it did its job. The “real” dog should not be making the judgment calls once it is sent an a target. The dog don’t know if a 12 year old is running caues he is scared or case he wants to blow the place up.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ya, that’s a real bit. The dog was sent and it did its job. The “real” dog should not be making the judgment calls once it is sent an a target. The dog don’t know if a 12 year old is running caues he is scared or case he wants to blow the place up.


I agree Chris, the dog was SENT for the bite, regardless of who he bit, right or wrong, he was sent. REAL BITE = YES

The bite was real, the accident was he bit the wrong person, HOWEVER he was sent to bite and that he did...


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Unfortunately, a lot of people selling dogs with real bites are also adding in mealtime bites.


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