# Terriers learning to work racoons



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Here are a few short video clips of two young terriers on a **** for the first time. I think the jagd did well, the little black Patterdale will be going down the road I think.
Question for some of the good terrier guys (Don and Bob)..........the Patterdale is about 12 months old, the Jagd is 8 months old. is the hesitation in the Patterdale from his age, or his genetic makeup? He will plow head first into a groundhog, a possum, and a baby pig. This was his first racoon and he hesitated too much for what I would like to see, but I am new to the terrier game so I dont know if this will get better or not.
This was also the first time the jagd has seen a raccon too, but she did not hesitate nearly as much, even though she is much younger.
I would normally not have put young dogs on a racoon, but this was a small **** and I sold my old Patterdale male and dont have him here to train a young dog with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIIKeS4zjko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaVF4eBkD_k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LfJzUkDLkg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PZCAaieUJ0


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't know anything about hunting with dogs, but I like that little Jagd dog. She's got some grit it seems.

Thanks for sharing Mike.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm about as far away from a bleeding heart as you can possibly get but, I see little difference in this and dog fights.

This is bloodsport, pure and simple and I don't disagree with it but that's what it is..you aint hunting for food for damn sure :lol:

You can get rid of waay more ***** with a gun or poison than you'll ever eradicate with dogs...why use dogs then ?? it's fun right ?? I don't disagree, lets have a forum for dogfighting then.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

It seems like from the short videos of one **** that the Jag terrier has more of a heart for killing. 

It looked like the patterdale was unsure, almost in prey drive with the tail wagging after she lost her grip. Possibly the dog was unsure or was bite and did not like it.

The Jagd on the other hand looked like a dog on a mission. The jag hit the **** without any playing around. It is hard to believe the dog is only 8 months old. It did not look like any kind of prey drive or playing but straight up attitude of killing the animal. 

I have not done any hunting with terriers. If I wanted a dog for eradicating varmits around the farm, I would keep the Jag terrier from what I saw. I would not keep the Patterdale. 

I would be curious to hear what the terrier men have to say about this.

I always believe that a good dog does things naturally and usually well. If you are looking for a dog to eradicate varmits or hunt with, the Jagd looks like a dog that takes to it naturally. How long did it take the Jagd terrier to kill the ****? I would imagine with a few more fights that the Jagd terrier would be hell on wheels and able to take down larger animals. I am sure with some maturing that the drive in the dog will even come out more.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

first off gerry shut up! Mike, I think my favorite was stop or Ill send the dog. That was great! I am not a terrier man but I have worked some coonhound. With **** hounds it can be an age and genetic thing. By that I mean, just like a dog in bitework might be crazy for a bite at 6 months and some might not show any interest, it is the same on a ****. I dont know if it is the same with the terriers though, but it looks like the same thing.He looked mighty interested though. The videos keep getting better and better. dont forget me on that pup I am dying for one.=P~


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> This is bloodsport, pure and simple and I don't disagree with it but that's what it is..you aint hunting for food for damn sure :lol:


It may be bloody but it is all about food. The raccoons are raiding the grain bins in Suttle's barns. The dogs are raiding the raccoons hence protecting the food. So in effect hunting for food.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Probably isn't smart to keep those videos up too long, Mike. :wink:





That patterdale looks like a cur to me.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I like the Jagd too....no comments other than that really except for I started laughing at the whole "STOP or I'll send the dog" part. LOL

Don't have an issue with what you are using them for at all. All animals hunt in one way or another. 
Better than wounding it and having it run off and suffer.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

id have to agree with james on that....i have no clue on the sport but im guessing some people find that disturbing to watch...honestly i found it disturbing to watch...not saying anything negative about it tho since im not from the states and i dont know about racoon issues and such but it was hard to watch it and im no bleeding heart but im just not used to seing stuff like that so please dont take offense ;-)


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

sam wilks said:


> first off gerry shut up!


-s -t 5 -c :lol:


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## Johannes Gilbertson (Jul 4, 2009)

*Hi Mike,*

*I enjoyed the vids but have to agree with James; it's probably best for you to remove them from youtube ASAP. There are too many "humaniacs" out there who could bring you unwanted stress if you leave them up. Being a bulldog guy for almost 20 years, I have seen many good dogmen suffer all kinds of pain because they were a little too "public" with their dog activities. *

*Take care brother!*


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'm about as far away from a bleeding heart as you can possibly get but, I see little difference in this and dog fights.
> 
> This is bloodsport, pure and simple and I don't disagree with it but that's what it is..you aint hunting for food for damn sure :lol:
> 
> You can get rid of waay more ***** with a gun or poison than you'll ever eradicate with dogs...why use dogs then ?? it's fun right ?? I don't disagree, lets have a forum for dogfighting then.


Well Gerry, there is one MAJOR difference between hunting with dogs, and dog fighting. DOG FIGHTING IS ILLEGAL, hunting with dogs is not.
As a matter of fact, there are large organizations that promote hunting with dogs. Yes it is fun, but the ***** and the dogs have options. They are not placed in a pit and forced to do this. The dogs live for this shit, as for the *****, if they dont want to fight then they should run faster.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Well Gerry, there is one MAJOR difference between hunting with dogs, and dog fighting. DOG FIGHTING IS ILLEGAL, hunting with dogs is not.
> As a matter of fact, there are large organizations that promote hunting with dogs. Yes it is fun, but the ***** and the dogs have options. They are not placed in a pit and forced to do this. The dogs live for this shit, as for the *****, if they dont want to fight then they should run faster.


Like I said previously, I have no problem with this..lets just call it what it is.



> there is one MAJOR difference between hunting with dogs, and dog fighting. DOG FIGHTING IS ILLEGAL, hunting with dogs is not.


Like possesion of a small amount of drugs as opposed to a large quantity for sale ??

Pit or no pit, neither animal really has a choice. The ***** should run faster ?? c'mon, there built to amble at best . post a vid of your dogs against a 30 pounder.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Well Gerry, there is one MAJOR difference between hunting with dogs, and dog fighting. DOG FIGHTING IS ILLEGAL, hunting with dogs is not.
> As a matter of fact, there are large organizations that promote hunting with dogs. Yes it is fun, but the ***** and the dogs have options. They are not placed in a pit and forced to do this. The dogs live for this shit, as for the *****, if they dont want to fight then they should run faster.


I like the spunk the little Jagd has. I don't see much wrong with this at all, that raccoon didn't try to escape in the 2nd video, it went after the Patterdale. You can't compare something like dogfighting, which is 100% illegal, to a legal sport.
The Patterdale looked like it would rather not be screwing around with the raccoon, my first impression was that it was playing, with the bow and the yippy "play" bark. The Jagd was all business, that raccoon had to die. 

Granted, that's just my perspective, I don't know shit about hunting with dogs.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> post a vid of your dogs against a 30 pounder.


Gerry, I guess now I am confused. Do you want to see this or dont you? In one relpy you seam to be somehow offended by it, and now you ask to see more video of it????
I dont always take the camera with me when we go out, but I will try to get some video of some larger ones for you. The two in this video are very young and this was their first ****. I would not put them on a large **** just like I would not put a 6 month old Malinois on a decoy who was really trying to destroy him.
But I just sold an adult (3 year old) male Pattedale who has been on several very large (30 lbs plus) ***** and the outcome is still the same. The only difference is the length of time it takes to finish the job.
But I will try to keep the camera with me when we go out and if I get a very large one I will damn sure video it for you.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Like I said previously, I have no problem with this..lets just call it what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, lets call it what is is..........HUNTING

even a small amount of an illegal drug is still illegal........at least it is where I come from

Yes, the dogs do have a choice, they see or smell a **** and they go CRAZY, I dont make them do it, they are just born that way and they do it on their own. When I open the kennel door they make a bee line right to the barns with or without me.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Like I said previously, I have no problem with this..lets just call it what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, tree hugger much?
Patterdale could have run away just as much as she stayed just out of reach of the **** but she chose not to. Jagd dog went in there more than willingly.
As for the ****...it is a raccoon!! Fight or die, only the strong survive...I'm pretty sure I learned all about that in school when we talked about EVOLUTION.

Geez, people are so soft these days.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> Wow, tree hugger much?
> Patterdale could have run away just as much as she stayed just out of reach of the **** but she chose not to. Jagd dog went in there more than willingly.
> As for the ****...it is a raccoon!! Fight or die, only the strong survive...I'm pretty sure I learned all about that in school when we talked about EVOLUTION.
> 
> Geez, people are so soft these days.


I dont think Gerry is a tree hugger, I think he is just pointing out a bit of double standard. 
Everything you have just said to vindicate hunting, the people who fight dogs use the same. No pitbull is forced to fight. They do love to fight. They will pull towards another dog to fight. Fight or die, only the strongest survive.
I guess for me it all depends of the motivation of the dog owner. If he is a farmer and and Foxes are killing his lambs, yeah he should be able to go out and hunt the foxes, with guns or dogs.
If there is no need for that, and he goes out with his dogs to kill animals that dont cause him any problems, and he aint gonna eat them, and as his dogs are killing the animals he is loving it, boner in his pants kinda thing, well I think a little different about that.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

So the Terriers killing vermin is legal, it's what they were bred to do, it's what by their very nature live to do.

What then is the difference between these dogs and dogs bred to fight ?? Please, not the legality thing again :razz: What's the difference between a racoon you've never seen before and a stray dog with the same credentials ??

I see it as being the same.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I dont think Gerry is a tree hugger, I think he is just pointing out a bit of double standard.
> Everything you have just said to vindicate hunting, the people who fight dogs use the same. No pitbull is forced to fight. They do love to fight. They will pull towards another dog to fight. Fight or die, only the strongest survive.
> I guess for me it all depends of the motivation of the dog owner. If he is a farmer and and Foxes are killing his lambs, yeah he should be able to go out and hunt the foxes, with guns or dogs.
> _*If there is no need for that, and he goes out with his dogs to kill animals that dont cause him any problems, and he aint gonna eat them, and as his dogs are killing the animals he is loving it, boner in his pants kinda thing, well I think a little different about that*_.


 :evil:\\/


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I dont think Gerry is a tree hugger, I think he is just pointing out a bit of double standard.
> Everything you have just said to vindicate hunting, the people who fight dogs use the same. No pitbull is forced to fight. They do love to fight. They will pull towards another dog to fight. Fight or die, only the strongest survive.
> I guess for me it all depends of the motivation of the dog owner. If he is a farmer and and Foxes are killing his lambs, yeah he should be able to go out and hunt the foxes, with guns or dogs.
> If there is no need for that, and he goes out with his dogs to kill animals that dont cause him any problems, and he aint gonna eat them, and as his dogs are killing the animals he is loving it, boner in his pants kinda thing, well I think a little different about that.


So hunting with dogs should be illegal?? That is what I got from the drug comparison.

In my honest opinion, legislation involving dogs is a slippery slope. How many animal extremist groups do you think would use your exact argument against protection/man work? That those of us involved in sport or personal protection are just doing it to get a "boner in our pants," that it has nothing to do with the integrity of the breed itself, that it serves no "real" purpose.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> So hunting with dogs should be illegal?? That is what I got from the drug comparison.
> 
> In my honest opinion, legislation involving dogs is a slippery slope. How many animal extremist groups do you think would use your exact argument against protection/man work? That those of us involved in sport or personal protection are just doing it to get a "boner in our pants," that it has nothing to do with the integrity of the breed itself, that it serves no "real" purpose.


I agree totally, it is a very slippery slope, and thats why you havent heard me call for banning of it.
So I train my dogs, and I support police using dogs and civilians using dogs for protection.
That doesnt mean I have to support this type of behaviour with police dogs. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbYRUJGW99g&p=C1E39E48AC653611&playnext=1&index=11


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So the Terriers killing vermin is legal, it's what they were bred to do, it's what by their very nature live to do.
> 
> What then is the difference between these dogs and dogs bred to fight ?? Please, not the legality thing again :razz: What's the difference between a racoon you've never seen before and a stray dog with the same credentials ??
> 
> I see it as being the same.


Gerry, I am sure you are not a farmer and have no idea how much damage these raccons can do really, so I can see your side of the argument.

If we had stray dogs killing our livestock I would get larger dogs to chase the strays and kill them if they could. I kill the racoons because they are a nuisance, for the same reason we kills skunks and groundhogs, rattlesnakes, copperheads, and horse flies around here.
I enjoy shooting groundhogs with my rifle, I enjoy snake hunting in the rocks and catching rattlers, hell, I even make a game with my sons to see who can kill the most flies with a fly swatter, and yes I enjoy seeing the litter terriers doing what they were bred to do on racoons.
I have witnessed an official dog fight one time in my life, it is not the same thing as what I am doing believe me.
their is a big difference beetween people walking dogs into a ring and squaring them off against each other, and my dogs running to the barns on their own to try to find a ****, possum, or groundhog.
if it bothers you that much I guess I can stop posting the videos here.
I guess this means you probably dont want to see the videos i have of the feral cat radication that we have been doing for my neighbor's dairy farm???


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I agree totally, it is a very slippery slope, and thats why you havent heard me call for banning of it.
> So I train my dogs, and I support police using dogs and civilians using dogs for protection.
> That doesnt mean I have to support this type of behaviour with police dogs.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbYRUJGW99g&p=C1E39E48AC653611&playnext=1&index=11


I don't think you can compare the link you provided to the videos posted in the original post. To compare the two is to belittle the three men attacked in the video you posted and what they went through.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I was born and raised on a farm and know a few things about life there. I killed lots of all types of animals but I just never made a sport of it..except for sploding gophers with the trusty .22 hornet.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Alison Grubb said:


> Wow, tree hugger much?
> 
> 
> Geez, people are so soft these days.


That's pretty funny


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I guess this means you probably dont want to see the videos i have of the feral cat radication that we have been doing for my neighbor's dairy farm???[/QUOTE]


I DO I DO, send the link!!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

people use dogs to hunt hogs, mountain lions, coyotes, *****, foxes, bear, deer, squirrels, birds, etc
it is all done for the sport of it. It is called HUNTING.
When hunting happens, animals die. That is just the way things work out for the animals.
I posted these videos for the many people who have PM'd me asking to see more videos of the little terriers working.
If anyone on this forum is offended by this type of work, then dont open any thread started my me in the HUNTING section of this forum, especially if the thread has the words "Terriers" and "Racoons" in the subject title.
I guess since this is a WORKING dog forum with a HUNTING section I thought it was a given that their would be things in there like , gee I dont know, maybe DOGS being used for HUNTING.](*,)](*,)


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> I don't think you can compare the link you provided to the videos posted in the original post. To compare the two is to belittle the three men attacked in the video you posted and what they went through.


Im not comparing Mikes videos to the one I posted, and Im not too sure how you would think that.
I am saying that I can support peoples right to hunt, with dogs even, so long as its done for a reason. I can support, and do, Mikes right to hunt animals that cause problems on his farm. But I wouldnt support Mike if he went down to the local pet shop, bought a pet lamb, and then put it in cage and let his dogs kill it for Mike to get some enjoyment out of. 
Its all relative, and Im sure Mike wouldnt do that to sweet little lambs......:wink:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Jones;213762
Its all relative said:


> And waste a good lamb??? HELL NO, I'd eat that little bastard myself!:grin:


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## John Campbell (Jul 25, 2010)

If this was video of a cat killing a rat would we be having this debate?


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So the Terriers killing vermin is legal, it's what they were bred to do, it's what by their very nature live to do.
> 
> What then is the difference between these dogs and dogs bred to fight ?? Please, not the legality thing again :razz: What's the difference between a racoon you've never seen before and a stray dog with the same credentials ??
> 
> ...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> people use dogs to hunt hogs, mountain lions, coyotes, *****, foxes, bear, deer, squirrels, birds, etc
> it is all done for the sport of it. It is called HUNTING.
> When hunting happens, animals die. That is just the way things work out for the animals.
> I posted these videos for the many people who have PM'd me asking to see more videos of the little terriers working.
> ...


=D> I never once said what you or your videos showed was wrong, I said I didn't see any difference between that and dog fighting.

Whether it's a dog or a hog, something is gonna die.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Im not comparing Mikes videos to the one I posted, and Im not too sure how you would think that.
> I am saying that I can support peoples right to hunt, with dogs even, so long as its done for a reason. I can support, and do, Mikes right to hunt animals that cause problems on his farm. But I wouldnt support Mike if he went down to the local pet shop, bought a pet lamb, and then put it in cage and let his dogs kill it for Mike to get some enjoyment out of.
> Its all relative, and Im sure Mike wouldnt do that to sweet little lambs......:wink:


:lol:
Obviously two very different situations.

If not for comparison what was the point of linking that video?


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I think what people need to remember is that this is a hunting forum. You are going to see things killed. 

I really do not understand why if it bothers people why they would watch it. It may not be the political correct thing in this culture but no one is forcing any one to watch it. 

If Mike wants to keep the videos up he should. The last time I checked this is America and he is doing nothing against the law. More people need to stand up for their rights and stop hiding. A lot of people have died to give us our freedoms. 

People are always going to find something they disagree with. It doesn't mean that if you do not like something it should be outlawed.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I am just wondering why you dont just shoot them mike , with a gun ? i would think it would be easier? quicker and so on


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

who gives a flying f_ck, what he does or how he does it, it is legal and if you don't like it, jump to another thread...as Jack said this is the hunting section...you don't just hunt for food, it is a SPORT!!!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

whoaaa jody take a pill , I am asking a question, thats all ,


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Tammy,

I think it is obvious why he does not shoot them. He enjoys seeing the dogs doing what they were bred for. It looks like the Jagd terrier likes fighting the ***** . 



Some people have a problem with breeding dogs who will bite people. If they had their way, dogs would not even be used as working dogs. 

What I find interesting in this thread is that it is the Canadians and an Australian who have a problem with him hunting dogs like this. I am not being political because I've seen people using snares to catch rabbits in Canada before. I am just making an observation. 

I do find it interesting in cultures that are not as liberal in personal freedoms and rights that you have a problem with Mike hunting these dogs. There are some things that I do not agree with, but for personal freedoms and rights, I accept them. It is a dangerous world when the few or those in power dictate what you can do in your life.

In the end, it is Mike's property, his dogs and his right to hunt these animals how he pleases. 

*I mean no disrespect to Canadians or Australians. I myself would not live in these countries due to the loss of personal freedoms.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Jack Roberts said:


> If Mike wants to keep the videos up he should. The last time I checked this is America and he is doing nothing against the law. More people need to stand up for their rights and stop hiding. A lot of people have died to give us our freedoms.


True, but in this day and age it's easy for things to get taken out of context and have it end up costing you a lot of aggravation and money. There is nothing wrong with letting dogs work(legally), filming it, or taking satisfaction in a job well done. Mike should be proud of the dogs he owns(well, except that cur! lol) and the sucess he's having putting them to work. But at the same time, posting short clips with no background information in either the clips themselves or the youtube descriptions is setting a bad precedent because there's really no way to distinguish it as a legitimate hunt versus some yahoo baiting animals for fun. 

Legal or not, all it takes is some youtube humaniac catching wind of the video, tracking Mike's IP, and then causing all kinds of headaches for him on a local, state, and national level. 



My $.02


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> True, but in this day and age it's easy for things to get taken out of context and have it end up costing you a lot of aggravation and money. There is nothing wrong with letting dogs work(legally), filming it, or taking satisfaction in a job well done. Mike should be proud of the dogs he owns(well, except that cur! lol) and the sucess he's having putting them to work. But at the same time, posting short clips with no background information in either the clips themselves or the youtube descriptions is setting a bad precedent because there's really no way to distinguish it as a legitimate hunt versus some yahoo baiting animals for fun.
> 
> Legal or not, all it takes is some youtube humaniac catching wind of the video, tracking Mike's IP, and then causing all kinds of headaches for him on a local, state, and national level.
> 
> ...


As I can't disagree with you, and not gonna go political, society has just gotten soft! Can't please everyone, has to be a winner and a loser, someone happy, someone sad....some live, some die


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

It is simple no ticky no laundry. if you don't look you can't be offended. now back to dogs. Mike I think the patterdale went in fine at first but grabbed the wrong end and got bitten. The Jagd has an advantage. even though he did come like a bat out of hell the **** was occupied with the patterdale so not teeth or claws to make him hesitate. the only pause I have with the patterdale is he didn't grab and stay in the fight. jmho


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike, I thing the Patterdale is more thoughtful of where he bites. Seems to look just for the head. Not a bad thing in my books. Maturity will speed up his work. 
Border terriers are often Two yr old before they will make contact with quarry. At maturity they are deamons. My first Border terrier wouldn't even give a mouse a second look till he was almost two. Then I had to retire him because he had no self preservation once he kicked in. 
Don said he'd like a tail dog (nad grabber ) but he's not going to change his whole breeding program for that one trait. 
The Jagd just doesn't seem to care. Larger, tougher quarry may or may not change that, but he WILL take more damage. He also went right in while the Patty was keeping the **** busy. Dogs will develop team work. I think Don will verify that. Some go for broke and some hold off till they get THEIR shot. 
I had a Kerry Blue that was a back breaker. Never dove right in but always got the job done.
My JRT never made contact in the ground but put enough pressure on the quarry that he was a great dog for bolting them out of the ground. Not a lot of dogs could do that.
One groundhog will eat 1/4 acre of soybean shoots in the spring. There is also a great deal of damage to equiptment when they break through shallower summer dens in the field.
***** will crap all over hay stored in barns. This can cause illness in horses in particular, not to mention how much hay is lost because of it. 
I'm not a fan of posting video on the web only because of the fall out that can be used with it.
PLEASE TO ALL. You have the option of not viewing the hunting forum.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I read this whole thread. Never watch vids because it takes to damned long to load them. Mike, the dog my lines are bred on was a technition. Straight up kill dog but had but had a style. ***** roll over on their backs and try to get dogs to come after a soft underbelly so they can get on their heads. He would walk a circle around them with his face just out of reach. You had to watch him close but if the **** even blinked once it was like a lightning strike and he would crush their whole chest. When it came to big game he got stupid most the time and once he made his move, he never backed up. Had to hunt that dog with a full medical kit. Spent three mo. layed up after grabbin a 350lb bear by the face....but he never let go. The patty is young and you may have to see him without another dog to see how he works.
As for Gerry, he is jealous and just wished his dogs look even close to as good as those pups. I don't really see what the boner in the pants thing is y'all get watching these vids with sport dogs and protection work. They are all over this board and you tube. Y'all think there isn't people out there that find that outrageous. You still put them up and watch them. Glad Mike didn't take them down for the pantywaists.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> I am just wondering why you dont just shoot them mike , with a gun ? i would think it would be easier? quicker and so on


 
Where’s the sport in just shooting them? If it’s all legal in his state I don’t see no problem with the videos being up on youtube. Maybe Mike should have a bite suit made for the raccoons and train some to be decoys? And it really don’t matter how long they are up once a video has been up its out on the WWW.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Mike, I thing the Patterdale is more thoughtful of where he bites. Seems to look just for the head. Not a bad thing in my books. Maturity will speed up his work.
> Border terriers are often Two yr old before they will make contact with quarry. At maturity they are deamons. My first Border terrier wouldn't even give a mouse a second look till he was almost two. Then I had to retire him because he had no self preservation once he kicked in.
> Don said he'd like a tail dog (nad grabber ) but he's not going to change his whole breeding program for that one trait.
> The Jagd just doesn't seem to care. Larger, tougher quarry may or may not change that, but he WILL take more damage. He also went right in while the Patty was keeping the **** busy. Dogs will develop team work. I think Don will verify that. Some go for broke and some hold off till they get THEIR shot.
> ...



Hi Bob,

Should the patterdale be showing more heart at this age? Do you think the Jagd terrier would act different if there was not another dog occupying the raccoon.

It seemed like to me that the Patterdale was more playing with the raccoon. I am not a small terrier man but just from what I'm observing.

Do those terriers that are hot starters usually continue on into later life?

Do you think when the Jagd terrier is in a bad fight, he may start to be more hesitant with his entries. It seems like from watching the videos that the Jagd has more of a natural instinct for killing compared to the patterdale. 

If you were going to hunt game above ground, which dog would you take from the videos? It seems like night and day between the two dogs to me but I am no small terrier man. I would like to understand which dog you would choose and why, if you could only have one of these dogs.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

What is traditional for pest control in the States such as racoon?

And to the rest of you....bloodthirsty gits!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> What is traditional for pest control in the States such as racoon?
> 
> And to the rest of you....bloodthirsty gits!


I was actualy thinking the same thing...since we dont have any sort of thing that even remotely resembles a raccoon...the worst we would have is rats and such smaller vermin...and rabbits....lots of bloody frikkin rabbits and hare's messing with our trainingfields which is a pain in the ass...we use poison here are traps but nothing as fierce as hunting them....

and i dont know how to ask this without sounding wrong so im just going to go and ask it as its in my mind...

why 2 dogs on 1 raccoon ? is there a specific idea to that trainingwise/sportwise...is this normal behaviour throughout the sport ? how does it even out strengthwise ? 

the reason i ask is im trying to understand something that is new to me....my conception of sports is that the odds should even out 1 on 1 and may the best dog/raccoon win... but im not sure if the raccoon is stronger then the dog in this case or the other way around....i realise its something that is viewed as a sport in the states and that the raccoon is a huge pest over there but im just trying to get an idea to the line of thinking here and how it evolves into the sports itself...

Im not pointing fingers or making accusations to anyone at all but in my eyes it does seem bloodthirsty to have 2 dogs working one raccoon but thats coze i dont have to deal with the raccoons themselves so maybe i would think differently if i lived in the states hence my questions...

please do not take offense at them since they were not ment that way at all.

Alice


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Alice Bezemer said:


> why 2 dogs on 1 raccoon ? is there a specific idea to that trainingwise/sportwise...is this normal behaviour throughout the sport ? how does it even out strengthwise ?


Not sure if this is exactly right or not, but, raccoons are formidable opponents for one dog, no matter the size. They have been known to drown dogs and severely damage them. 

I have always seen more than one dog used for hunting *****. As well as big cats and bears.

I think it is great that you are inquiring about the how's and why's. At least you want to learn about it.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Not sure if this is exactly right or not, but, raccoons are formidable opponents for one dog, no matter the size. They have been known to drown dogs and severely damage them.


Why use dogs then ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> Not sure if this is exactly right or not, but, raccoons are formidable opponents for one dog, no matter the size. They have been known to drown dogs and severely damage them.
> 
> I have always seen more than one dog used for hunting *****. As well as big cats and bears.
> 
> I think it is great that you are inquiring about the how's and why's. At least you want to learn about it.


Ive never seen then sence in condeming something that i dont know anything about, its far smarter to get educated..i might not like what i see but it doesnt mean i will just sit here and give my judgement when i dont understand the workings...and then still i wouldnt presume to judge since the whole raccoon issue isnt an everyday occurance in the netherlands 

mind you after seing those pats ? id like to have a few to deal with the rabbit issue here !


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jack, it is hard to say from a video and not knowing the dogs. They are both young. I have had dogs that had no finesse. Full steam ahead. Higgins comes to mind. Great dog but, after a bad boar where he ended up with drain tubes and stiches in the neck, chest and ribs, and had to have his cheek sewed back up in place so his teeth weren't all exposed on one side, he got smart. Not much point in having a bunch of dogs that are dead game when they are dealing with stuff that can kill them with one swipe of a paw or a tusk. The jagd may live top learn that lesson, the pat may have already figured it out, it would be pure speculation to say one way or the other. I hyave watched many dogs "work" game into the right position before they make their move. That is a smart dog. There is a saying in the hunting world when dealing with bad game. "That pup will be a heck of a dog if he survives the first 3 encounters." To deal with bad game they have to learn and there is only one way for them to do that which is what you see in the vids I am sure. They don't learn, they won't make the cut. If they are marginal or cur they won't make it either.

There in lies the difference between sport work and hunting. Many like to believe they are testing the dogs in sport work. It isn't testing, it is a game played for points and the dog never loses because the vast majority of them would quit if they lost. It is very regulated so the dog looks good. The only way to test the dog would be real civil work. He has it or he doesn't. That is pretty obvious when the dog is hightailing it down the street leaving you holding the bag. 

Maggie, it isn't being bloodthirsty at all. It is watching a dog to see if he is what he was bred to be. Mikes dogs would do the same thing whether he was there or not. When you see these little dogs work, you can't help but admire them. Most of them originated in England also. I have a male ordered by a rancher for pest control. Pests include anything that doesn't belong their. *****, possoms, feral or domestic dogs chasing the livestock. This is cattle country and it is ok to shoot dogs but you can't be there 24/7.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I was actualy thinking the same thing...since we dont have any sort of thing that even remotely resembles a raccoon...the worst we would have is rats and such smaller vermin...and rabbits....lots of bloody frikkin rabbits and hare's messing with our trainingfields which is a pain in the ass...we use poison here are traps but nothing as fierce as hunting them....
> 
> and i dont know how to ask this without sounding wrong so im just going to go and ask it as its in my mind...
> 
> ...


the "sport" is, will the raccoon get away? not will the racoon kill the dog? if i go fishing i'm not worried about the fish killing me. if i'm hunting ducks i dont worry that the ducks will kill me. also he is training new dogs, these arent old dogs hunting, this is their first time.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I was actualy thinking the same thing...since we dont have any sort of thing that even remotely resembles a raccoon...the worst we would have is rats and such smaller vermin...and rabbits....lots of bloody frikkin rabbits and hare's messing with our trainingfields which is a pain in the ass...we use poison here are traps but nothing as fierce as hunting them....
> 
> and i dont know how to ask this without sounding wrong so im just going to go and ask it as its in my mind...
> 
> ...


Alice, this isn't sport. There is no sport to it and you can lose a dog pretty easily. It is for real. For now, since they are pups, it has to be controlled so Mike can see what kind of starch the dogs have. When they are older, people just leave the dogs loose and they will do the same thing. Actually Mike is doing them a great sevice. If one of the dogs hasn't got what it takes he will get rid of it rather than subject him to injury that he isn't up to. By the way, ***** will gang up on a dog in a heart beat.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Why use dogs then ?


Why not use dogs. Terriers will do it anyway. It's not like they need to be trained.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Sometimes people can not use a gun. What if you are in the barn and the animals are in the bales of hay. 

Some people will send the dogs inside the hay to get the varmints out of the hay. I have heard of people using a shovel to hit the animal on the head as it came out of the hay, but what about the the animals that get away. Most people do not realize the damage pest can do and how dirty they are. Ground hogs leave holes in the ground where animals get their legs broken. Animal feces can carry disease and germs. 

I would be really hesitant to use poison to get rid of varmints, especially having dogs that could get into it.

If you have every grown a garden, you know what kind of damage rabbits and ground hogs can do. My wife is a peaceful person but after a whole summer of the animals eating her garden plants, she wants me to send the dog after the animals. She would never kill anything but after 4 months of seeing destruction of the garden, she reached her point. She no longer cares about the dog killing the rabbits.

I can see why Mike uses the dog. It is a blood sport and it is death. I do not think anyone hear is glorifying it but this happens in nature everyday. If you eat meat, then somebody was killing an animal for you. 

I think it is interesting to see how the dogs are bred and how they perform at their task. Perhaps, it is because I grew up in a non PC world, when Mutual of Omaha showed lions taking down prey and eating them. If you watched Mutual of Omaha, then you saw animals being taken down in a much more violent fashion than these dogs on the raccoon. I see nature as a much more violent than these videos. Have you seen a praying mantis eat a hummingbird alive?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> the "sport" is, will the raccoon get away?



thats actualy what i ment as well...thats what winning would be for the raccoon 

I would hate to see the dog killed or hurt even tho im sure its a significant part of the sports itself....


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

also regarding sport if i'm hunting deer it would be unsporting to "shine" them to shoot them. if my family was starving well then **** sporting. same with raccoons if they are destroying my livelyhood **** sporting


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Alice, this isn't sport. There is no sport to it and you can lose a dog pretty easily. It is for real. For now, since they are pups, it has to be controlled so Mike can see what kind of starch the dogs have. When they are older, people just leave the dogs loose and they will do the same thing. Actually Mike is doing them a great sevice. If one of the dogs hasn't got what it takes he will get rid of it rather than subject him to injury that he isn't up to. By the way, ***** will gang up on a dog in a heart beat.


Thanks for explaining, Im sorry if i got the wrong idea about it being a sport, thats just what i assumed as i read the whole thread and since i know there are huntingsports all over the world i assumed this was one of them


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

"Maggie, it isn't being bloodthirsty at all. It is watching a dog to see if he is what he was bred to be. Mikes dogs would do the same thing whether he was there or not. When you see these little dogs work, you can't help but admire them. Most of them originated in England also. I have a male ordered by a rancher for pest control. Pests include anything that doesn't belong their. *****, possoms, feral or domestic dogs chasing the livestock. This is cattle country and it is ok to shoot dogs but you can't be there 24/7."

My remark was tongue in cheek Don....it's just the absolute glee displayed on these threads that probably prompted it.

I like the little terriers, I don't like that many who hunt them don't give a shit about them....dog 'in dog 'out scenario. On saying that, my own jrts earned their keep around the place and whilst I appreciate what they do....I don't enjoy the spectacle of an animal suffering a protracted fate for sport sake, that's just my opinion. I'm not really passing judgement here, it is kind of ironic though that the origin of these dogs has now banned hunting with dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Alice, hounds are sporting dogs. They love a good chase and people like to hear them bawl. Terriers are not considered sporting dogs for good reason.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> also regarding sport if i'm hunting deer it would be unsporting to "shine" them to shoot them. if my family was starving well then **** sporting. same with raccoons if they are destroying my livelyhood **** sporting


ehm Jamie ? i was only asking a few questions in order to undertand the whole thing mate ! no need to get your nickers in a twist and blow a fuse....


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Why use dogs then ?


Why not? It is what they were bred for isn't it? 

That is what gets me (not you specifically Maggie), people see these dogs doing what they are bred to do and then don't understand why we use them. They see and hear that certain breeds do certain things and get that breed anyway because it's "cute" or because "we had them when 'I' was a kid" and then they don't understand why the dog they chose does all this "strange" stuff, when in all actuality, if they had researched the breed, they would have learned whether they really wanted that breed or not. 

Well bred dogs of their breeds, do what they were bred to do! Period. 

There are variations since people feel the need to water them down so that they can have that breed and not have to deal with a "real" representative of that breed. 

I have seen labs that won't hunt, shepherd that won't herd or gaurd, terriers that lay around (not often or they were anciently old), gaurdians that won't guard, hounds that won't track......I find it unfortunate that breeds are "ruined" (for
lack of a better word) so that someone can have it laying on their couch.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I appreciate where you are coming from Carole, but like it or not the world is evolving and we are no longer in the values of the Roman Amphitheatre. You are in the States, I am not. Peoples views on animals are changing from what they used to be and like I said, big rules over here on hunting with dogs....

And again....it is what they WERE bred for over here.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob and Don droppin' knowledge all over this thread!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> I appreciate where you are coming from Carole, but like it or not the world is evolving and we are no longer in the values of the Roman Amphitheatre. You are in the States, I am not. Peoples views on animals are changing from what they used to be and like I said, big rules over here on hunting with dogs....
> 
> And again....it is what they WERE bred for over here.


Some people's views on animals are changing. I am just happy that there are still those of us that "enjoy" seeing and using dogs for what they WERE bred for. If we gave up, they would all be watered down pets. 

I don't like the fact that people are trying to take away from anything, dogs or otherwise. If they don't like it, don't pay attention to it. 

You are correct, we are not in the values of the R.A., but it still does not give people the right to try and take things away. 

If I were to "try and lobby to take things away from them, they wouldn't like it at all......so don't try and do it to me".


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

It amazes me that educated adults who are familiar with the natural order of things have a problem with certain natural encounters.

Yes, we love for the snake and cat to eat those nasty rats. Yes, we love it when the raptor swoops down and snatches up those scary snakes. No, we hate it when the cute bunny gets nabbed, or the croc gets the sweet ol Wildebeast, or a cougar takes a fawn.

That's the way that it is. Mike isn't "training" his dogs to do these natural things; he is training them to be safe in doing it. What's the beef? So what if he gets satisfaction in ridding his property of these damaging vermin? No-one seems to care if he giggles when a 22-250 turns a groundhog inside out, do they?

I think people who protest this are thinking too much into it. They let their soft side make decisions when they post in opposition. I can understand their feelings because I hunt and appreciate the game that is killed. Sometimes it is a somber moment upon collecting certain game. I still don't oppose it.

And as far as comparing this to dog fighting..........that's such a long stretch that it's laughable.

BTW....terriers are legal to own in WVa. Hunting with dogs is legal in WVA. Hunting varmints is legal in Wva; ergo...hunting ***** with dogs is legal in Wva. The state hunting laws don't require the hunter to weep after the kill. Nor do they penalize you for having fun and enjoying a legal activity.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There in lies the difference between sport work and hunting. Many like to believe they are testing the dogs in sport work. It isn't testing, it is a game played for points and the dog never loses because the vast majority of them would quit if they lost. It is very regulated so the dog looks good. The only way to test the dog would be real civil work. He has it or he doesn't. That is pretty obvious when the dog is hightailing it down the street leaving you holding the bag.


 So hunting with a dog is real ?? You run a sleeping **** out of a barn and send 2 or more dogs on it, you send several dogs after a hog because that's what it takes...sounds pretty sporty to me 

Again, I don't have a problem with any of it..I just don't see it as some noble cause like the purists do.

I had Heelers that loved to kill shit and I let them do it, but I knew what it was and why I liked it.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Again, I don't have a problem with any of it..I just don't see it as some noble cause like the purists do.
> 
> I had Heelers that loved to kill shit and I let them do it, but I knew what it was and why I liked it.


 Ever see a pack of coyotes kill small game, or run a deer to exhaustion and feast on it while it still clings to life?

Does that apeal to you as well, or did you like your dog killing shit just because it was your dog?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry wrote,


> I had Heelers that loved to kill shit and I let them do it, but I knew what it was and why I liked it.


Probably the same here Gerry, most people that see these little terriers work are in awe of their gameness. They aren't sitting around thinking of the **** that was going to die one way or the other....at least most people aren't...sorry. LOL


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> Ever see a pack of coyotes kill small game, or run a deer to exhaustion and feast on it while it still clings to life?
> 
> Does that apeal to you as well, or did you like your dog killing shit just because it was your dog?


Yes I have Howard, I've seen Muskox killed by wolves and eaten while alive for awhile..I have an 8mm tape of one of these.

I've seen wolves and coyotes eating caribou,moose and deer...I've also seen gophers eating their relatives when they get hit on the highway.

What's your point ??


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> It amazes me that educated adults who are familiar with the natural order of things have a problem with certain natural encounters.
> 
> Yes, we love for the snake and cat to eat those nasty rats. Yes, we love it when the raptor swoops down and snatches up those scary snakes. No, we hate it when the cute bunny gets nabbed, or the croc gets the sweet ol Wildebeast, or a cougar takes a fawn.
> 
> That's the way that it is. Mike isn't "training" his dogs to do these natural things; he is training them to be safe in doing it. What's the beef? So what if he gets satisfaction in ridding his property of these damaging vermin? *No-one seems to care if he* *giggles when a 22-250 turns a groundhog inside out, do they?*


Howard, I think maybe they do care and that's the point. It probably wouldn't hurt for both sides to see each others points of view on the subject, but when folks express such enjoyment at a pretty gruesome spectacle as perceived to joe public, what kind of response does one expect. ?

I value the terriers for their pest control, but blasting images around the net in this day and time I think will hasten even further their demise. Personally I couldn't give a shit, I've gone hunting before but it was food for the dogs and there was good reason for doing it...no kill, no tucker for dogs.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Yes I have Howard, I've seen Muskox killed by wolves and eaten while alive for awhile..I have an 8mm tape of one of these.
> 
> I've seen wolves and coyotes eating caribou,moose and deer...I've also seen gophers eating their relatives when they get hit on the highway.
> 
> What's your point ??


 My point is....how do you equate the above to dog fighting? Terriers hunting sleeping ***** is no different. You can bet your arse that a wild predator will gladly take a napping prey. 

If a television viewer takes delight in watching the awesome natural unfolding chase/capture/kill of a wild event, are they any different than those that bite their nails as they watch the same event? Does the enjoyment and wonder of seeing such an event suddenly place such a person in the same mould as the dog fighter?

When I see these things sometimes I root for the predator...sometimes the prey. Hawks chase our pigeons all the time. I root for the pigeons because we have a vested interest. I stand in amazement as I witness the awesome hawk do his thing.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> but when folks express such enjoyment at a pretty gruesome spectacle as perceived to joe public, what kind of response does one expect. ?
> 
> I value the terriers for their pest control, but blasting images around the net in this day and time I think will hasten even further their demise.


I don't see people going after National Geographic or Animal Planet. For me, Mike putting up those videos is no different. 

People choose to turn the TV channel so they don't have to see it, the same should be done here. 

To be honest....I change the channel when predators are taking something down most of the time. Sometimes I watch it. Depends on my mood. 

There is a difference when you are actually out there physically doing it. 

I guess we are terrible here when we prairie dog hunt, we laugh pretty hard most of the time. 

One time, on a new PD town, I shot the first one (we use .22 mag rifles as they don't spook the whole town as much) and he dropped backwards into the hole, and since the "town" had not been hunted yet, there were like 8 of the others that ran over and looked down the hole like "dude, are you okay?" it was HILARIOUS. 
Either that or they were hungry and getting ready to eat their own, which they do. 

I used to hate it, but moving here and learning to hunt has opened my eyes to it. I hunt deer and elk every year for dog food, I hunt pheasants with dogs and for the dogs (we eat the breasts and the dogs get the rest), we kill bunnies as they kill our trees by eating the bark off. We take out excessive amounts of wild and feral cats as the mark and shit on EVERYTHING, we kill rattlesnakes, pigeons, skunks, *****.....if we don't they just take over out here and ruin things. 

The only thing I don't like to kill but will if I absolutely have to.....is the badgers. For some reason I like them and hate to see them messed with. They are mean, nasty creature of you mess with them or get to close to them, but if you back off and keep the dogs away, they amble off on their merry way.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> My point is....how do you equate the above to dog fighting? Terriers hunting sleeping ***** is no different. You can bet your arse that a wild predator will gladly take a napping prey.
> 
> If a television viewer takes delight in watching the awesome natural unfolding chase/capture/kill of a wild event, are they any different than those that bite their nails as they watch the same event? Does the enjoyment and wonder of seeing such an event suddenly place such a person in the same mould as the dog fighter?
> 
> When I see these things sometimes I root for the predator...sometimes the prey. Hawks chase our pigeons all the time. I root for the pigeons because we have a vested interest. I stand in amazement as I witness the awesome hawk do his thing.


 
Howard, you're referring to the natural order of things, it ceases to become a natural order when man is proactive and gettin his jollies!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Carole, badgers are lovely peaceful creatures, but I guess you didn't know that!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Howard, I think maybe they do care and that's the point. It probably wouldn't hurt for both sides to see each others points of view on the subject,.


I have to agree with you there but, calling it the same thing as dog fighting is over the top.

Being as the majority of people on this board own/work/train biting dogs....since when do we give a rats ass about what Mr. and Mrs. Fluffy think about our chosen K9 field? In fact, we vehemently defend our position. It's what we do.

Strange that pretty much most everyone here has no problem with hunting dogs but do have a problem if they enjoy it too much. 

Before you know it it'll be like...."HI, we are from the government, you can trust us...and we feel that you are having too much fun. Stop it now or someone will be offended!".


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> My point is....how do you equate the above to dog fighting?


I have to admit, I've never seen an actual staged dogfight..maybe I would piss my pants if I did.

However, these vids Mike posted were staged and in no way can they be compared to anything that happens in nature.

And again...I aint sayin it's wrong but it is what it is.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Howard, you're referring to the natural order of things, it ceases to become a natural order when man is proactive and gettin his jollies!



I seem to remember reading that Mike lets his dogs out and they automatically run to the barn, untethered, to get their jollies all on their own. :razz:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> I seem to remember reading that Mike lets his dogs out and they automatically run to the barn, untethered, to get their jollies all on their own. :razz:


And him at the ready with camera LOL :razz:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> However, these vids Mike posted were staged and in no way can they be compared to anything that happens in nature..



If this were a "canned" hunt I'd agree with that statement. The ***** had an escape route and the dogs had to negotiate obstacles much larger than themselves....obstacles that ***** can climb and small dogs cannot.

The way I see it is this...the gravy train is over for the bandit. Here they were all fat, lazy and happy on Mr. Suttle's bounty and got caught flatfooted. Shame on em.[-X


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

where I live they trap all kinds of things and drown them...
working dogs are working dogs cause they work...if not hunting what would be the working function of these terriers..??


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> And him at the ready with camera LOL :razz:


 A la Marty Stoufer:razz:


I think someone already brought this up but...Would it be just as bad giggling over Felix the cat as he laid waste to feed stealing rats? Just wondering.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> A la Marty Stoufer:razz:


 
Who's he ?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Who's he ?


 Famous wildlife videographer from the "Wild America" PBS shows.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Famous wildlife videographer from the "Wild America" PBS shows.


Aah, you sure wildlife photographer :razz:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I took in a young feral cat many years ago, I still have her. She is a culling machine extraordinaire. My place used to get lots of uninvited guests in the autumn, she would come and drop each kill on the doorstep....I counted six in one hour one year.

If I offered that cat some 'cat food' as appreciation, she would directly go and bring something still live for me, shrews, young rats, young ferrets, mice. So as not to upset her feelings I would accept her gift then kill it out of eyesight .


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Seems she's showing her appreciation for your hospitality. I knew a cat that would leave possums on her owners' desk chair.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Who's he ?


 #-o













That's just downright un-American...by way of Scotland! :wink:O:wink:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Stouffer


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm gonna try once more and then I don't care if you think I'm a treehuggin spurmburpin tapdancer...

In my opinion setting single or multiple dogs on some wild animal who is doing it's best to just get the **** outa there is not hunting :lol:

It may be fun, but unless they're eatin it..it's just sport.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I took in a young feral cat many years ago, I still have her. She is a culling machine extraordinaire. My place used to get lots of uninvited guests in the autumn, she would come and drop each kill on the doorstep....I counted six in one hour one year.
> 
> If I offered that cat some 'cat food' as appreciation, she would directly go and bring something still live for me, shrews, young rats, young ferrets, mice. So as not to upset her feelings I would accept her gift then kill it out of eyesight .


Not to go all off topic, but ferrets? Are they wild there or where people have turned them loose?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> #-o
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
We have The Man here...Sir David Attenborough...watched him my whole life! 

http://www.davidattenborough.co.uk/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Attenborough

But thanks ;-).


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Not to go all off topic, but ferrets? Are they wild there or where people have turned them loose?


 
Wild ferrets here and stoats.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Gerry...Not all vermin is considered edible...or palatable. Just sayin.:grin::grin:

And yes, Maggie...I shoulda been more obliging and said David Attenborough.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Wow, I just came back inside the house and took a look at this thread. It looks like i have missed a lot on this issue in the last several hours.
I am not going to go back and answer everyone who opposes this individually, but will try to enlighten you all at once here.
Yes, it is a sport, I never claimed otherwise. All hunting is a sport folks, and fishing is too. But it is a sport with a purpose and a good cause for the property (although bad for the *****). These ***** are flushed from the hay that we feed our cattle, the hay that they shit all over, and I mean ALL OVER.
We have sweet feed and corn in our barns as well and the little thieves consume hundreds of pounds of that feed annually. We have three farm tractors parked in those barns and shed around the barns and the ***** like to chew the electrical wiring on the tractors. My father and his brother live about 300 yards from those barns and they each have large gardens that get raided almost every night by the ***** and everyday by the groundhogs. 
Yes I could shoot them, yes I could poison them, yes I could trap them. I could also just burn down the barns and that would get rid of the problem too I guess. But I chose to kill them this way, I am breaking NO laws in doing so.
The reason that I used two dogs in this video is because they are both young dogs and this was their first time on a raccon. By using two youg dogs I reduce the likelyhood of one of the pups getting hurt and ruining him from wanting to work anymore *****. I use these two dogs already by themselves on groundhogs, possums, and feral cats, but for the first few times on a **** they will either be used together, or alone on a very tired **** like the short videos of the Jagd showed.
I have posted several other pictures and a couple videos and they were all of one Patterdale on one racoon. This is the first video I have ever posted of two dogs on one ****.
I could make this much less "sporty" by just letting the dogs hammer the ***** in the hay loft were we run them from, in the barn they have nowhere to escape to at all. but I wait until we get the ***** outside of the barn and then let the dogs chase them. 
It is not like I video every hunt. I only take a camera along every now and then, but the dogs go down to the barn almost every day when I let them out to run in the evening. 
Not that I have to justify what I am doing with MY dogs, on MY land anyway, but I wanted people to know what this is really about.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Not all vermin is considered edible...or palatable. Just sayin.:grin::grin:
> 
> And yes, Maggie...I shoulda been more obliging and said David Attenborough.


You big fat Americans have obviously never been hungry :grin: !

Apology accepted, maybe not all of America gets proper tv :grin:.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> You big fat Americans have obviously never been hungry :grin: !
> 
> Apology accepted, maybe not all of America gets proper tv :grin:.


 Wow!! Insults with smileys.

I'm not fat, never was. Matter o fact, I hate being called thin. Even though I'm 200 lbs I am lean so calling me fat is a compliment to me.

And....sir David has nothing on Marty. Well, that's not completely accurate. He does have more sky miles cause he has to travel so much farther and to other countries to get good wildlife video as opposed to our vast country which is full of critters. Point to David=D>


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> ...I've also seen gophers eating their relatives when they get hit on the highway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

There ya go Mike. Sell **** skin caps to cover dog feed bills.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I was just kiddin you Howard, I thought the clue was in the smilies, couldn't resist it after what's gone down on the board lately. Anyway, I know you're not big...I've seen those pics of you in your tight pants .


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Carole, badgers are lovely peaceful creatures, but I guess you didn't know that!


Uh huh....till you mess with one. Seen badger encounters on the ambulance with stupid people.....

Have one on the property on the south end, well away from the house, can hear him when we walk by his den if he is "home". Sounds like he is saying as we pass by "come on in".....not.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"If I offered that cat some 'cat food' as appreciation, she would directly go and bring something still live for me, shrews, young rats, young ferrets, mice."
_

She wanted you to cook and can the live offering?

Or she felt sorry for you and your canned crap and was giving you some real food?

Or she loved the canned food and was thanking you?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I was just kiddin you Howard, I thought the clue was in the smilies, couldn't resist it after what's gone down on the board lately. Anyway, I know you're not big...I've seen those pics of you in your tight pants with elastane for a snug fit .


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

A) I know you were kidding.

B) You had to bring up the pants, didn't you? I'm built like a light bulb...thin on the bottom, bigger up top. How I stay upright constantly amazes me.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> You big fat Americans have obviously never been hungry :grin: !
> 
> Apology accepted, maybe not all of America gets proper tv :grin:.














Attenborough has done his thing for a long time, but you know what the difference is here? We(fat Americans) know who he is, unlike you BBC boobies! And while the queen might call Attenborough sir, he can't hold Stouffers jock when it comes to the level of footage captured on screen.








:mrgreenit's all fun and games until you call someone fat)


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> You big fat Americans have obviously never been hungry :grin: !
> 
> Apology accepted, maybe not all of America gets proper tv :grin:.


America has its issues but for the most part it is a great place and the rest of the world is jealous.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"If I offered that cat some 'cat food' as appreciation, she would directly go and bring something still live for me, shrews, young rats, young ferrets, mice."_
> 
> 
> She wanted you to cook and can the live offering?
> ...


Possibly option 2...bringing me real food but not feeling sorry for me. That was my take on it!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Attenborough has done his thing for a long time, but you know what the difference is here? We(fat Americans) know who he is, unlike you BBC boobies! And while the queen might call Attenborough sir, he can't hold Stouffers jock when it comes to the level of footage captured on screen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


James, gotta agree with you there. I knew who Attenborough was:-D


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Attenborough has done his thing for a long time, but you know what the difference is here? We(fat Americans) know who he is, unlike you BBC boobies! And while the queen might call Attenborough sir, he can't hold Stouffers jock when it comes to the level of footage captured on screen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why can't he hold Stouffers jock, I'm curious about that? You're right, I hadn't heard of him before now but hey, I'll look out for him.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> I keep going back to this and laughing…. I think I went to a school like this #-o


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> James Lechernich said:
> 
> 
> > I keep going back to this and laughing…. I think I went to a school like this #-o
> ...


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Why can't he hold Stouffers jock, I'm curious about that? You're right, I hadn't heard of him before now but hey, I'll look out for him.


First, just so no one goes crying to the mods, the photo is meant to be funny! ;-)


Attenborough is the quintessential narrator, but when's the last time he got his hands dirty getting a shot? Stouffer was equal parts adventurist, naturalist, and cinematographer, and it was reflected in the shows he produced. If we were to compare the two to shows most people are familiar with these days, Attenborough would be in the Jeff Corwin/Les Stroud category and Stouffer would be in the Steve Irwin/Ray Mears category.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> First, just so no one goes crying to the mods, the photo is meant to be funny! ;-)
> 
> 
> Attenborough is the quintessential narrator, but when's the last time he got his hands dirty getting a shot? Stouffer was equal parts adventurist, naturalist, and cinematographer, and it was reflected in the shows he produced. If we were to compare the two to shows most people are familiar with these days, Attenborough would be in the Jeff Corwin/Les Stroud category and Stouffer would be in the Steve Irwin/Ray Mears category.


 
Gotchya! 

Funny pic #-o :grin:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'm gonna try once more and then I don't care if you think I'm a treehuggin spurmburpin tapdancer...
> 
> In my opinion setting single or multiple dogs on some wild animal who is doing it's best to just get the **** outa there is not hunting :lol:
> 
> It may be fun, but unless they're eatin it..it's just sport.


Gerry, most all wild animals are trying to get away from hunting dogs. They only stand and fight if they can't out run them.....that's why dogs are used in case you didn't know. We would'nt be very successful predatores without the dogs. The are a tool like a gun but a heck of a lot more expensive to have.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I have to vent . anyone who feels sorry for that damn raccoon please send me a donation for the soffit that I am having fixed tomorrow because of said raccoon. 2,500 bucks and the only enjoyment I got out of it was watching the raccoon look puzzled on my lawn looking for the tree I cut down. Mike you should get your pound of flesh from the little bast**ds. I envy you.you killed 3 birds with one stone. trained some dogs,got rid of vermin and had some fun. wish it was me  p.s it cost me 750.00 to have the tree cut down.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have a real problem with Gerry. I think he is just having to much fun when he watches his dogs really go after the decoy. Got to be sick to enjoy a dog attacking a person. Much worse than dog fighting. Or maybe it is which side of the fence your sitting on.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I have to vent . anyone who feels sorry for that damn raccoon please send me a donation for the soffit that I am having fixed tomorrow because of said raccoon. 2,500 bucks and the only enjoyment I got out of it was watching the raccoon look puzzled on my lawn looking for the tree I cut down. Mike you should get your pound of flesh from the little bast**ds. I envy you.you killed 3 birds with one stone. trained some dogs,got rid of vermin and had some fun. wish it was me  p.s it cost me 750.00 to have the tree cut down.


I hear you Tim, I got two going through my garbage. Were screwed in NJ if I shoot them Ill be in hand cuffs, if I send my dogs on them Ill be in hand cuffs. Its like Gerrys and the Racoons make the laws in my town. 
Everyone telling Mike better ideas to get rid of the ***** aint got *****. If you had ***** taking money out of your pocket and food off the table or make you pick up the trash all over the yard you’d be surprised at how quick you would let the dogs do their job.
F-Gerry 

Don, Mike has to make a bite suit for the *****


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Timothy...HOW DARE YOU OWN A HOUSE ON THE RACCOON'S LAND..

Mike SHAME ON YOU FOR OWNING PROPERTY AND NOT LETTING THE RACCOONS DESTROY IT..

I have a friend building a house, ***** come in and tear up EVERYTHING. the wires, they tear the insulation down, even peeled off his rock fascia on his fireplace... make a freaking mess everywhere...

I have another friend that keeps his dog food in his garage, the ***** ripped his soffit apart and got in after loosing so much he put it in big bins, the ***** open them up and "gaurd" HIS dog food against him...he now has to put cinder blocks on the tops of the bins, he is disabled and only can use one arm/hand, and pulled his "good" shoulder moving the blocks, those fukkers over there are mean, I went out there one night to get some tools in the dark, and almost got attacked, one flew out of the rafters and tried to kamikaze me...they wreck a lot of stuff and have killed his kittens (feral mouse cats) that breed in his garage....thought I was gonna end up like that lady in FL that got attacked by a "gang" of *****, there were a few there and they all came forward at me, even the young ones....

I have another friend that shot one in his kitchen after it attacked his dog in his own house, he shot it 3 times with a 22 and the fukker wouldn't die...we ended up herding it outside and beating it to death..

I have another friend who spent 3000 dollars saving his doberman that was attacked by a **** outside, the **** split the dog open from chest to belly, dropping his intestines on the ground, and removing a fist size ball of flesh from its shoulder...

I just moved in a trailer, I have to fix the skirting due to the raccoons that decided they wanted to get underneath and mess up the insulation on the pipes and tried to tear there way in through the floor...

we trapped a couple after they almost attacked my GF's 11 year old son....who was picking up stuff before he mowed the lawn...

I did not enjoy it so much, but I had NO problem dropping the traps in a garbage can full of water and letting them sink to the bottom...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gerry, most all wild animals are trying to get away from hunting dogs. They only stand and fight if they can't out run them.....that's why dogs are used in case you didn't know. We would'nt be very successful predatores without the dogs. The are a tool like a gun but a heck of a lot more expensive to have.


**** that, dogs are used to fight animals that haven't got enough substance to fight back with any kinda success rate against them, you will never see a dog going up against a moose :razz:, it would get stomped to shit..even all the dogs you own Don :lol:

Get ****ing real if you want to talk hunting..all you guys can hunt down there is turkeys and *****..hardcore shit for sure.


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## John Campbell (Jul 25, 2010)

Mike,
you should send Gerry a **** skin cap, it may have a few holes in it but hey its the thought that counts. 

the next time go fishing over by PETA HQ here in Va beach i can drop off his info.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> **** that, dogs are used to fight animals that haven't got enough substance to fight back with any kinda success rate against them, you will never see a dog going up against a moose :razz:, it would get stomped to shit..even all the dogs you own Don :lol:
> 
> Get ****ing real if you want to talk hunting..all you guys can hunt down there is turkeys and *****..hardcore shit for sure.


Gerry, I don't hunt small stuff, we got bears and hogs. The small stuff the dogs just kill on the way through. You don't strike me as much of a hunter anyway. You would rather sit back and get your jollies watching vids of the police turn dogs loose on someone. And you think hunting vids are worse? You wouldn't watch and post the police vids if you didn't get a rush out of it. That perp just wants to get away also...he does not want to fight those big bad police dogs. Maybe they just video them so you can get your jollies while making yourself feel normal and good by putting down dogs killing *****. Like I said Gerry, it all depends on which side of the fence your on.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> If you had ***** taking money out of your pocket and food off the table or make you pick up the trash all over the yard you’d be surprised at how quick you would let the dogs do their job.


 Metal pan
Metal garbage can
one cinder block
one car battery
0ne pair of jumper cables

Problem solved. No more dumped trash cans. Critter goes to neighbors house and aggravates him.\\/


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I have to vent . anyone who feels sorry for that damn raccoon please send me a donation for the soffit that I am having fixed tomorrow because of said raccoon. 2,500 bucks and the only enjoyment I got out of it was watching the raccoon look puzzled on my lawn looking for the tree I cut down. Mike you should get your pound of flesh from the little bast**ds. I envy you.you killed 3 birds with one stone. trained some dogs,got rid of vermin and had some fun. wish it was me  p.s it cost me 750.00 to have the tree cut down.


I might send you a donation Tim but what the hell is a "soffit"? Must be something important if it costs $2500 to fix?! :smile: And $750. for the tree?! Holy cow!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Metal pan
> Metal garbage can
> one cinder block
> one car battery
> ...


 
Oh…. id shock the shit out of myself somehow, piss myself, shit myself….. then wind up in hand cuffs in the back of the ambulance. And the raccoons and Gerry would be loving it


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Metal pan
> Metal garbage can
> one cinder block
> one car battery
> ...


I like the way you think Howard...twisted :razz: It's called "one event" learning ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> I might send you a donation Tim but what the hell is a "soffit"? Must be something important if it costs $2500 to fix?! :smile: And $750. for the tree?! Holy cow!


soffit= sheet metal on the underside of the overhangs on your house if you have them..must have been a decent sized tree,,,that is resonable for a big one around here...


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> soffit= sheet metal on the underside of the overhangs on your house if you have them..must have been a decent sized tree,,,that is resonable for a big one around here...


Thanks Joby ;-) Does that mean the raccoons were ripping the sheet metal off? Really doesn't seem like much a purpose driven reason other than total destruction hard wired in their genes :razz:We have lots of "issues" out here on the West Coast but mostly not weather related stuff like the mid-westerners have to do to their houses. 

In this economy you'd think you could get someone to chop that tree down for a couple hundred grateful dollars in their pockets. And have lots of firewood for the winter ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> Thanks Joby ;-) Does that mean the raccoons were ripping the sheet metal off? Really doesn't seem like much a purpose driven reason other than total destruction hard wired in their genes :razz:We have lots of "issues" out here on the West Coast but mostly not weather related stuff like the mid-westerners have to do to their houses.
> 
> In this economy you'd think you could get someone to chop that tree down for a couple hundred grateful dollars in their pockets. And have lots of firewood for the winter ;-)


well if it is hauling away and stump grinding. that is fair for a big tree where I live....they tear the soffit apart cause then they can get into the structure, that or the roof vents, or the chimney covers, or the skirting around a trailer home...all to get in somehow...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gerry, I don't hunt small stuff, we got bears and hogs.


Yes California is known for its large bears..I think that's the name of a football team there :razz: 

You're probably a good guy, but your hunting is just baiting..which is illegal here. If you ever had to leave your truck to hunt...you'd probably have a stroke.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I live in a city in new jersey . I shouldn't have raccoons. nothing in new jersey is cheap. that's why when I retire I movin. I was loving the good place to live thread.. now I know where to go . the land of the terrier hunter. Hey mike any land real cheap down their?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sure...low taxes too....
http://cgi.ebay.com/63-ACRES-RITCHIE-COUNTY-WV-HUNTING-LAND-/330458910998?pt=Land#ht_500wt_1154


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Yes California is known for its large bears..I think that's the name of a football team there :razz:
> 
> You're probably a good guy, but your hunting is just baiting..which is illegal here. If you ever had to leave your truck to hunt...you'd probably have a stroke.


while I agree with Don on this one, that is some funny sh*t lmao =D>


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

back on topic...lets see some more hunting...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

What about them feral cats?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> What about them feral cats?


What about em? They are awful, vile creatures....LOL


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> What about em? They are awful, vile creatures....LOL


Yeah, Mike said he had some Raids with them!!  Just waiting....


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You If you ever had to leave your truck to hunt...you'd probably have a stroke.


:razz:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have already discussed the possibility of posting the cat videos with a moderator. That moderator thought it would be a bad idea.
I guess the mothers of America, or maybe the mothers of canada would be offended by that too.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I have already discussed the possibility .of posting the cat videos with a moderator. That moderator thought it would be a bad idea.
> I guess the mothers of America, or maybe the mothers of canada would be offended by that too.


Did you intentionally leave out a word after "mothers", Mike?

PS - Canada is capitalized!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I have already discussed the possibility of posting the cat videos with a moderator. That moderator thought it would be a bad idea.
> I guess the mothers of America, or maybe the mothers of canada would be offended by that too.


That bites....this is a hunting forum. :-?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Yes California is known for its large bears..I think that's the name of a football team there :razz:
> 
> You're probably a good guy, but your hunting is just baiting..which is illegal here. If you ever had to leave your truck to hunt...you'd probably have a stroke.


Gerry, there was more to that post ....and another one that you seem to want to overlook. While you are a good guy also and I enjoy most of your posts, the one you started with oin this thread says you are a big time hypocrite. You fault Mike for really enjoying hois dogs doing what they do, while you sit back and get your jollies watching all these police vids with dogs after people. You don't see the hypocracy in this??


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gerry, there was more to that post ....and another one that you seem to want to overlook. While you are a good guy also and I enjoy most of your posts, the one you started with oin this thread says you are a big time hypocrite. You fault Mike for really enjoying hois dogs doing what they do, while you sit back and get your jollies watching all these police vids with dogs after people. You don't see the hypocracy in this??


Well I guess number 1 is.. **** you Mike, see how I don't put your name or where you come from in lower case just because you are who you are.

Number 2... Don, where and when did I state my jollies come from watching these Police videos you speak of ??

Actually I think Mike is more a number 2 than Don, at least Don is consistent.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Well I guess number 1 is.. **** you Mike, see how I don't put your name or where you come from in lower case just because you are who you are.
> 
> Number 2... Don, where and when did I state my jollies come from watching these Police videos you speak of ??
> 
> Actually I think Mike is more a number 2 than Don, at least Don is consistent.


dude, are you seroius??? you actually think that i put enough thought into my post to not capitalize the first letter in your country just to offend you? give me a break.
go back and look at most of my posts Gerry, i make a lot of grammatical mistakes, many of them are from not capitalizing words.
by the way, just out of curiousity what is not consistent about me?


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Don,

Not to take this off topic, but thanks for answering my questions about these two dogs.

It seems like it may be best to keep the full chargers held back until the smart dogs get the animals concentrating on them. It seems like the full chargers would be good for finishing the animal.

I can see why the Jagd may not work as well in the end, especially if you are only able to hunt a few times and you loose the dog. 

I really like the commitment of the Jag but can see from your post where it could be bad to have the Jagd traits. It is interesting to see a dog go full steam without regard for themselves. It seems like a good compromise is to take the full charging dog and breed them to a dog that was a little more smarter in the way he approached the fight. 

These little terriers are awesome animals. I always liked medium size to large size dogs but may have to get me one of these little terriers one day. It looks like the best of both worlds. You have a little dog that can ride along with you and also one that is very hardy and full of spunk.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

WOW, an international conflict over a dog video. Were almost like North and South Korea. I just put on my reatart helmet incase a bomb goes off over the missing capitol letter. 

Whats grammatical mean?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> dude, are you seroius??? you actually think that i put enough thought into my post to not capitalize the first letter in your country just to offend you? give me a break.
> go back and look at most of my posts Gerry, i make a lot of grammatical mistakes, many of them are from not capitalizing words.
> by the way, just out of curiousity what is not consistent about me?


Sorry I mentioned the cap thing, Mike. I was just teasing when I posted it..


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Sorry I mentioned the cap thing, Mike. I was just teasing when I posted it..


no worries, Lee. The reaction that it caused was exactly what i was talking about when i mentioned the mothers of America and the mothers of Canada. The just like to complain about anything they can.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> dude, are you seroius??? you actually think that i put enough thought into my post to not capitalize the first letter in your country just to offend you?


Apparently not :lol:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Whats grammatical mean?


LOL, it may be a word that i just made up to be honest. I was trying to say that my grammer, and my punctuation (and spelling) is not good.:razz:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

This thread is going good. I had to back track and read the whole thing. Lotta pimp slapping going on here. Who's turn to throw the next blow? Feels like this through my computer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGQKzZKLmhI&feature=player_embedded


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

good thing i did not post the video of the jagd killing a canadian goose recently, that would have caused an international incident.:razz:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Hey, I make up words when I need the too.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> LOL, it may be a word that i just made up to be honest. I was trying to say that my grammer, and my punctuation (and spelling) is not good.:razz:


that was grammatically correct and spelled correctly on top of it...but you are supposed to capitalize the word "I" Mike... at least you are consistent about that....not capitalizing things...


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> LOL, it may be a word that i just made up to be honest. I was trying to say that my grammer, and my punctuation (and spelling) is not good.:razz:


No don't go thinking you had you're own Shakespearean "refudiate" incident just now. You're safe for now...grammatical is a real word: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grammatical



;-)


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jack Roberts said:


> Not to take this off topic, but thanks for answering my questions about these two dogs.


LOL...this made me laugh...since it was WAY off topic and you brought it back.....nice one!!! =D>=D>:lol::lol:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> No don't go thinking you had you're own Shakespearean "refudiate" incident just now. You're safe for now...grammatical is a real word: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grammatical
> 
> 
> 
> ;-)


 well, it may have already been a word. But I bet im the first guy in WV to use it in a sentence.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> that was grammatically correct and spelled correctly on top of it...but you are supposed to capitalize the word "I" Mike... at least you are consistent about that....not capitalizing things...


Stole my comedic thunder by a less than a minute...





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBml1XZDg3w


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> well, it may have already been a word. But I bet im the first guy in WV to use it in a sentence.


Forget it, Mike. I just looked at my post and it's a grammatical nightmare. lol


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

OK boys, it is 11pm here and I have to get to bed. I have to leave for the airport early tomorrow to ship Wayne Dodge's new Malinois to him.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Lechernich said:


> No don't go thinking you had you're own Shakespearean "refudiate" incident just now. You're safe for now...grammatical is a real word: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grammatical
> ;-)


yes it was...=;


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## Michael Wise (Sep 14, 2008)

Mike, how long does it take for the dogs to kill 'em?

It seems from the vids that it takes a while. That's the only thing that bothers me and keeps me from watching them.

I understand that it is all part of the work.

It's the same thing that makes me hunt deer with a bow instead of a gun. The chance of wounding an animal is much greater with a bow, but I still chose to use it anyway.

Not dogging you, though. I'm about to head out now to see if my Jack Russell can catch those last couple a mutha ****in' moles that keep pushin' up my sod.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Michael Wise said:


> Mike, how long does it take for the dogs to kill 'em?
> 
> It seems from the vids that it takes a while. That's the only thing that bothers me and keeps me from watching them.
> 
> I understand that it is all part of the work.


It's hard for me to watch the younger dogs learn, the older dogs that don't mess around are easier for me.....


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Post the vid of the cats Mike, do it, do it. You know you want to. Or just add it to your channel and we can find it.

Venato ergo sum


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## Shawn Killeleagh (Mar 1, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> good thing i did not post the video of the jagd killing a canadian goose recently, that would have caused an international incident.:razz:


What's a Canadian Goose doing down there already? must be visiting his American relatives. Or maybe he is on his way to see his Mexican friends? I never imagined geese traveling that much outside of migrating times.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jack, I just got to the end of all the posts tonight but my thoughts on your questions are pretty much the same as Don's. The super hard dog's life expectancy is short if they don't learn fast.
This is the reasons I switched to JRT from the Border terriers. The Borders were to hard for their own good. Aside form the ethics, the hard dog will spend a lot of time laid up from hunting injury. The smart dog will hunt day after day. A CORRECT JRT was developed to bay or bolt the quarry for the fox hunters to continue the tally ho thing on horse back. It is/was the hounds job to finish off the fox.
The hard terriers were almost exclusively bred in Norther Gb where the ground is to rocky to dig and the fox play hell during spring lambing season. The bred the dogs to enter and finish off the fox. It's a necessity not a sport. A dog fox in GB can be 20-25 lb. Not the 10-12 lb runts over here. 
BTW, the Jagd is a German breed! "Jagdhund". Sometimes called yak/Yag/Jag terriers over here.
Maggie, the Euro Badger is a very different animal then the American one. The Euros are social and live in family groups. The American Badgers are nasty, evil tempered loners that will pretty much kill one another outside of breeding season.
I've hunted with a number of terrier men from GB and none have said they wanted anything to do with the American Badger. 
The GB terrier men also say they'd rather get caught molesaitng a child then get caught hunting badger in the UK. That's how bad the animal rights folks are over there. 
Long live the Country Alliance! 

Mike, I think I've mentioned it before but DO NOT put the hard terriers on a Badger. Even together!


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## Rox Brummer (Jul 7, 2009)

Our Honey Badgers here are savage little bastards that I wouldnt let a dog near!

The thing that realy strikes me about this thread is that is seems the people who disapprove of hunting with terriers like this are also the ones who would prefer a "fair fight" of one on one, thereby in my experience creating a situation where the prey is likely to suffer a much slower death. It doesnt make sense. The idea is that the prey is being eradicated for whatever reason, so I would rather use more dogs to do the job quickly for the sake of the animal, and for the safety of our dogs. We are infested with mice at the moment and I would LOVE to get some terriers to help out. Our ratting "dream team" of a Miniature Dachshund, a JRT and an Irish Terrier cross have all passed on over the past couple of years. Some friends of ours have a Parsons Russell Terrier and that is a cracking little dog. It throws heart and soul (and teeth) into everything. I am hoping they have a litter soon.

I am a conservationist by profession, and that is precisely WHY we use dogs. I am supposedly a "greenie" so I dont understand all the issues around using dogs that I guess are opinions I "should" share. Game meat is a free range and organic as you can get, and having dogs to follow up on any poor shot (they happen, even to the best hunters) ensures that the animal neither suffers for long, nor is wasted. My birds dogs do the same. Terriers killing vermin are IMO far more environmentally friendly than poisoning, trapping and drowning, or many of the other options. Who cares if the person working the dogs gets pleasure out of it? It isnt like the neck gets broken in a "nicer way" if the handler watches through teary eyes and has nightmares about it that night. My husband is a professional hunter and loves it. I personally dont get a kick out of the killing, but I do enjoy the dogs.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Shawn Killeleagh said:


> What's a Canadian Goose doing down there already? must be visiting his American relatives. Or maybe he is on his way to see his Mexican friends? I never imagined geese traveling that much outside of migrating times.


those damn geese live here year round, and they annoy the shit out of us.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have had dogs kill adult badgers one on one. Definitely not green dogs though.

Rox brings upo and excellent point. Seems the very same people that want to see a fair fight as in one on one, are the same ones that want it to be ended quickly. The two do not go hand in hand so you can't have it both ways. It was never meant to be a fair fight in the first place. While there is always a possibility of a dog getting injured, it would be stupid to let them start something they can't finsh.


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## Shawn Killeleagh (Mar 1, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> those damn geese live here year round, and they annoy the shit out of us.


then they are American geese, if they live there all year. LOL, the name is Canada goose, they are only Canadian if they are born here, you my friend have some American Canada geese on your hands. Yes they are worse than rats here too. with our warm winters the ponds don't freeze, the geese have no reason to fly south anymore, and they are protected if they live in cities! Damn I need a Jagd for geese!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you guys are too damn soft to watch this shit, don't. That is my recommendation. When you have ______ amount of money going down the shitter, because of vermin like that, you are eventually going to get mad, and kill them. Better this way, the dogs get to work.

The patterdale is a cur. LOL You get better Jag terriers from Russia. Obviously, the patterdale is over rated.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The patterdale is a cur. LOL You get better Jag terriers from Russia. Obviously, the patterdale is over rated.


Yes OBVIOUSLY this single video of a one year old bitch proves the patterdale is overrated!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Save the bleeding hearts if they ever saw how farm animals are processed. Hunting is now a sport, and many still hunt for food, but NOT because they need it. Calling it what it is...:-k


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff is right.....sort of. That Patterdale (a male by the way) did act like a cur on the that ****. It was his first **** and he is maybe too young to be on a **** right now. He will throttle a groundhog with no hesitation, but he ****ed me on this **** for sure. The Jagd is only 8 months old (way too young for ***** by herself) but she showed me that she aint skeert.
I will probably put the Patterdale down if does that shit again, which I am sure he will do.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> good thing i did not post the video of the jagd killing a canadian goose recently, that would have caused an international incident.:razz:


 Mike CG are protected! Thevery reason when you do goose control work, you have control of your dog/s and watching for video sharks!!! If they kill a goose, the fine goes to the handler...


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Jeff is right.....sort of. That Patterdale (a male by the way) did act like a cur on the that ****. It was his first **** and he is maybe too young to be on a **** right now. He will throttle a groundhog with no hesitation, but he ****ed me on this **** for sure. The Jagd is only 8 months old (way too young for ***** by herself) but she showed me that she aint skeert.
> I will probably put the Patterdale down if does that shit again, which I am sure he will do.


Key words "That Patterdale". Jeff made a generalized statement about the entire breed


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Feliciano said:


> Key words "That Patterdale". Jeff generalized the entire breed


I don't think that is what Jeff meant....I think he meant THAT specific patterdale, at least that is how I read it. 

Amazing thing the internet, it allows for so much variation on how some read things, and then of course, comment before we think things through. 

Wasn't there a discussion on grammar in this very thread? LOL


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

If there was a video titled "bulldogs on a boar" it would seem to belong here and I dont know how someone could decide to watch it then be upset, everyone should take their hippie sensitivities to an AKC board


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The patterdale is a cur. LOL You get better Jag terriers from Russia. Obviously, the patterdale is over rated.



Seeing as how Mike stated several times that he didn't like that patterdale, I fail to see how that dog was overrated. This leads me to believe Jeff was making a generalized statement about the breed


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Feliciano said:


> Seeing as how Mike stated several times that he didn't like that patterdale, I fail to see how that dog was overrated. This leads me to believe Jeff was making a generalized statement about the breed


Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I still read it differently. Just as in some prefer the Mal to the GSD, the Lab to the Chesapeake, the AB to the PB and so on. 

I tend not to generalize on breeds, as it depends on the dog for me, but some do and I respect their views and opinions. No sense trying to argue about it. 

It makes no difference really. THAT Patterdale is what she/he is in Mike's eyes right now, and we will see if that pup makes it or not.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Darn Mike, your going to have Gerry and some others in tears talking about putting the pat down for being a cur. Or did you say it to see what bleeding hearts are really made of. Bet not one PMed you saying they would take the dog. LOL I callem bleeding hearts of convenience.

I work a ranch belonging to a very affluent person. He was adamant about me not hunting my dogs there because, according to him, everything had a right to live. One day his wife spent all day planting flower bulbs arount their house. They got up the next morning and every flower bed was rooted up and every bulb eaten. I was the first call he made. I was given permission top hunt my dogs all I wanted and he wanted the hogs eradicated. Same thing....bleeding heart of convenience.....as long as it isn't bothering them.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry would not want him Im sure, he must have a lot of them already. In another thread he said he could get me all that I wanted so I sent him a PM and ordered 20of them and gave him the selection test and the adress to ship them to. I guess he is still getting the health certs done or something because I have not heard back from him about that.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I wouldn't worry to much about Gerry or the other one that chimed in about me sitting at the truck while the dogs hunted. They must think you can keep up with silent dogs running....or maybe they think they track game while I got them on a leash. They don't know that no one can run with the dogs. What I am saying is that they don't have a clue.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I wouldn't worry to much about Gerry or the other one that chimed in about me sitting at the truck while the dogs hunted. They must think you can keep up with silent dogs running....or maybe they think they track game while I got them on a leash. They don't know that no one can run with the dogs. What I am saying is that they don't have a clue.


You mean you cant run through the hills at 20 MPH for 3 hours? You must be getting old Don.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

I think Gerry gets credit for the truck comment as well. But that's neither here nor there. Instead, why don't we(me and my sense of humor included) come full circle and start talking about Mike's dogs again, namely the patterdale, and why it is or isn't a cur?

While I yield to, and have a great deal of respect for, Bob and Don's hunting experience, from what we have to go on(short videos), I don't like what I see in the patterdale. To me, there's a difference between a green dog's schooling revealing which tactics/targets are most effective as well as learning it needs to be smart and wait for its opportunities and a dog, however young, that hesitates when it should be taking care of business, or just plain comes off the bite, like the patterdale did in all but the last clip with the racoon in the weeds. A dog being smart about where to get in is good, so is not holding onto a bad grip indefinitely. But that's not what I see happening in the clips. I see the dog calling time out to reassess the situation because it suddenly realized it was in a fight. While the jagd may prove to be too ballsy for its own good, it at least had the heart/confidence to make contact and allow the experience to show it how best to handle itself in the future. 

To me it doesn't matter that the dog is solid against other/lesser prey, unless that's all you intend to use it for, because a cur is cur regardless and you've (likely) just witnessed the birth of a quitting streak now that the dog has reacted negatively to rougher prey. Not something I'd want to rely on because it may lead to other dogs getting hurt down the road.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you guys are too damn soft to watch this shit, don't. That is my recommendation. When you have ______ amount of money going down the shitter, because of vermin like that, you are eventually going to get mad, and kill them. Better this way, the dogs get to work.
> 
> The patterdale is a cur. LOL You get better Jag terriers from Russia. Obviously, the patterdale is over rated.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA

\\/\\/


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Gerry would not want him Im sure, he must have a lot of them already. In another thread he said he could get me all that I wanted so I sent him a PM and ordered 20of them and gave him the selection test and the adress to ship them to. I guess he is still getting the health certs done or something because I have not heard back from him about that.


See, now you're just talking shit.



mike suttle said:


> Not sure what you mean by this. Do you have the small breed terriers that I can buy from you that will work for this contract so that I dont have to think about breeding them?


This was your reply to my statement that what some people will do for money is just stupid. I didn't say I had shit for sale, the one time I offered to give you a dog to see if someone you knew might have a use for him..you wanted me to pay the shipping.



mike suttle said:


> You mean you cant run through the hills at 20 MPH for 3 hours? You must be getting old Don.


Yes.. I'm sure after all the hunting is over, Don walks 60 miles to collect the hog :lol: maybe they just run in very small circles ?? 

You guys are just like women...never wrong.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> You mean you cant run through the hills at 20 MPH for 3 hours? You must be getting old Don.


But he can drive it, while shooting.
Don, that truck line was a pretty good line. Sorry man when it’s a good one it’s a good one. You should hear what people say about my chicken legs. Sometimes its really funny stuff. I do think it would be funnier if it wasn’t about me though. 
F-Gerry


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> See, now you're just talking shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Gerry, I did not want you to pay for the shipping. I wanted you to ship him COD because I was in Holland when you contacted me about the dog and I could not get any money to you for the shipping cost. Lets not make it something it wasn't.
And when I asked if you had the small breed terriers you said you did, and ask me how many I wanted.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Well, I need at least 20 more to fill the last contract I have. I will PM you the testing requirements and an address to ship them to. Thanks for your help in finding me the right dog for the job.


I thought it was obvious I was being sarcastic and you were also. If that's not the case then I apologise.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA

Gerry, want a tissue ? Does the color yellow make you sad ?? LOL

I grew up with dogs doing this stuff, so I can see where people might get all butt hurt, but it is not like there is a shortage of ***** anywhere.

The skin is worth a few bucks, so I don't like to see the dogs chew on it. : )


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA
> 
> Gerry, want a tissue ? Does the color yellow make you sad ?? LOL


Ya know Jeff..words can hurt.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I think that Patterdale needs some frustration work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmnSMovx5ns&feature=related


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No they cannot. They are WORDS. : )


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I really like the fearless nature of the Jagd but would be interested in seeing that Patterdale again in a little while, not months but a few weeks. I suppose the cull rate in a program for this type of work really depends upon a persons priorities. For example in a situation where a person isn't all that concerned with losing dogs or dogs being set back by injury. For others something more middle of the road is more ideal. 

I think there's value in a well balanced team when it comes to dogs that work in this capacity. While having the same type of working attributes is nice sometimes a blend of critical qualities works out better in the long run.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

You are probably right Nicole, but I hate a quitter. And that Patterale quit fighting and let go of the ****, then started baying at it and acting like a damn JRT. I dont want to feed a dog like here.
No offense to the JRT folks, but they are used for two different things.
I want dogs who smash headfirst into the quarry with reckless enthusiasm over and over again.
While they may have shorter lives with that behavior, I prefer to see that type of commitment.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> You are probably right Nicole, but I hate a quitter. And that Patterale quit fighting and let go of the ****, then started baying at it and acting like a damn JRT. I dont want to feed a dog like here.
> No offense to the JRT folks, but they are used for two different things.
> I want dogs who smash headfirst into the quarry with reckless enthusiasm over and over again.
> While they may have shorter lives with that behavior, I prefer to see that type of commitment.


You are so mean. If you hurt that puppy.....I am gonna TELL!!!! :mrgreen:

Nah....I hope she turns out, but if she doesn't well, then, she doesn't. 
Have had to learn that the hard way.....I don't think it is ever easy for anyone. But how do you better a breed by keeping shitters? (ya don't of course). 8-[


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> See, now you're just talking shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Gerry, Don walks what ever it takes to get his dogs. That is why they got $1200 dollars worth of tracking equipment on them. That is why Don goes where he has to. The second reason is because those tracking collars are expensive. Third reason is to take picture to sell dogs. Fourth reaon is I have a love for pork chile verde. Apparently yopu don't know how hunting woth dogs works. You always wait till the dogs are bayed because you usually end up walking away from the bay.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

technically Gerry you can't find Mike's quote to make a point and the just say what you said . you have to post your quote as well . I did capitalize your name. I don't want you made at me.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> You are probably right Nicole, but I hate a quitter.


Mike, no doubt there. I don't either. Frankly, the first video I saw of her I thought - nope, she's done (out of there/cull). But rather than saying that in a public forum about a breed or sport I know very little about I felt it better to be more conservative about what I was really thinking. I'm also offering comments on this based upon my own experiences with encounters between dogs/prey that are much larger and thus in a split second that size difference and wreckless engagement from the dog could immediately change the outcome to a point of no return. I figure that some care or sense of self preservation is warranted and necessary depending upon the circumstance.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> You are probably right Nicole, but I hate a quitter. And that Patterale quit fighting and let go of the ****, then started baying at it and acting like a damn JRT. I dont want to feed a dog like here.
> No offense to the JRT folks, but they are used for two different things.
> I want dogs who smash headfirst into the quarry with reckless enthusiasm over and over again.
> While they may have shorter lives with that behavior, I prefer to see that type of commitment.



I'm thinking it's the Mal/Dutchie person in you Mike. 
The Mal/Jagd = reactive vs the GSD/Pat = thinking. :grin: :wink:
I do expect to see more out of the Pat with maturity. If only I had the room! SIGH!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I really like the fearless nature of the Jagd but would be interested in seeing that Patterdale again in a little while, not months but a few weeks. I suppose the cull rate in a program for this type of work really depends upon a persons priorities. For example in a situation where a person isn't all that concerned with losing dogs or dogs being set back by injury. For others something more middle of the road is more ideal.
> 
> I think there's value in a well balanced team when it comes to dogs that work in this capacity. While having the same type of working attributes is nice sometimes a blend of critical qualities works out better in the long run.


Actually Nicole, you are dead on. I have had dogs that have no back up in them. For a meat hunter, they are a PITA but you have to admire them. What those dogs are really good for is breeding because if you lose a bit, you have a great dog. My Winchester was like that and I couldn't hunt him half his life because he was laid up after every hunt.....and he was an expensive keeper. The next problem was dogs feed off the other dogs and he would suck dogs into fight with game that had no business on the head end of a bear or bad hog. What I do is a tad different as the game usually outwieghs all the dogs involved. This is one reason I usually only hunt two dogs. They just don't get as stupid as 6 or 7 dogs. Bottom line, it is what the owner wants in a dog. Mike wants to get rid of ***** and take video, I want to put chile verde on the table. Neither of us is ahead if the vet bills or loss of dogs is more expensive than Mikes feed or my chile verde cost just buying it. That is why the dogs are tested.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just another thought on the video.
While the Patterdale was baying the ****, Mike was holding the Jagd and no doubt it was getting pumped up (capping) while it watched the Pat work. That had, IMO, some effect on the Jagd busting right in on the ****. With a bit of maturity it would be interesting to see how the Pat would react in the opposite role. 
Don?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I didn't see the video but from what you said Bob, the pat would be going crazy also.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm thinking it's the Mal/Dutchie person in you Mike.
> The Mal/Jagd = reactive vs the GSD/Pat = thinking. :grin: :wink:
> I do expect to see more out of the Pat with maturity. If only I had the room! SIGH!


Bob, you are one of the guys that I posted those videos for, I know you have a lot of terrier experience, and I have almost none so I really do value your opinion. I may have set this dog back by putting him on a **** too soon, he is about 12 months old now and I should have waited until he was closer to 2 years old maybe to put him on his first ****. I saw this small **** and thought that it would be a great time to work the young dogs, maybe I should have waited.
So Bob, do you think that his hesitation will go away with more experience on *****, or will he learn that it is less painful and easier to hang back and let the Jagd do the dirty work?
As for the Jagd......even when the **** was dead, she was still biting the hell out of it, and when I choked her off of it she was screaming like only a Jagd can do and trying like hell to get back to it. The Patterdale ignored it after it was dead. Does this mean anything?
I like the Patterdale, he is a cool little dog and he is great on groundhogs and cats, but he really dissapointed me on his first ****. Should I just stick to groundhogs out of the ground and possums and rabbits for a while, then try him on a **** much later? Or should I plant him in the ground now?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Just another thought on the video.
> While the Patterdale was baying the ****, Mike was holding the Jagd and no doubt it was getting pumped up (capping) while it watched the Pat work. That had, IMO, some effect on the Jagd busting right in on the ****.


Good thought there Bob


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike, most true terries that I have been around never wool the game around like a hound. When it quits fighting, they are looking for something else that wants to fight. My dogs never play with dead stuff but they will eat it.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Yeah, the Jagd gets bug eyed if I hold her back from anything. The Patterale was also held back in the short videos while the Jagd was on the **** by herself, but the Patterdale just did not show the same intensity and drive for the fight.
I have seen him go crazy for everything else he has fought, but this time he was much more cautious. I will give him another chance, but i am afraid the outcome will be similar.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, most true terries that I have been around never wool the game around like a hound. When it quits fighting, they are looking for something else that wants to fight. My dogs never play with dead stuff but they will eat it.


I have noticed that with most of the terriers here, they will walk away from whatever they kill, but the crazy Jagd wont leave it alone. The little 9 week old Patterdale male tries to eat everything he kills. So far I have had him on a mouse, a small rat, a very young rabbit, and a baby chicken, he swallowed the mouse and the baby chicken before I could even take them from him. The rat and the rabbit got caught in his throat so I could pull them back out of his mouth.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Let him mature. If he's good on hogs then go for it. It may or may not mess it up for ***** later on. Just hard to tell until the time comes (maturity). 
As far as his leaving the quarry when it was dead, that's what's expected from a terrier. Not a problem with a young dog because the younguns are often let "rag" the dead quarry to build confidence. Not all pups will even bother with that though.
I had a show line,CH, Norwich Terrier that had no interest in actual earth work but was a pretty good mouser. Problem was he wanted to swallow the mice as soon as he caught them. "tapeworm"  :lol: 
In the days of the rat pits the dog basically herded the rats into one spot and killed them as they broke from the corner. I learned this the hard way when I tried herding with the above Norwich. herded them into the corner then broke the necks on two of them when they broke quicker then I could say "OH $#!+) 
The "contest" was how many rats the dogs could kill in a given time. If the dog spent a lot of time with a dead rat he was useless in the pits. 
I've been rat hunting on hog farms. The rats tunnel all under the feeder troughs. We stand around the perimiter of the trough with the dogs and then a couple of folks lift the trough. 
It's fast and furious and you don't want your dog waisting time on a dead rat. It's gonna miss out on the chase!
In a barn full of ***** you can run into the same situation. 
Think a sleeve obsessed dog. It doesn't care if the helper puts pressure on the dog after he drops the sleeve cause the dog wants the sleeve.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Think a sleeve obsessed dog. It doesn't care if the helper puts pressure on the dog after he drops the sleeve cause the dog wants the sleeve.


I think that's a real good analogy. I went through this with my own dog (obviously not terrier) and wondered about it for a bit. That is until I saw her reaction at the mere sight of a gun or sound of a gun shot. Apeshit. And then I thought, that'll do. After all what the hell does it matter what she does with it once it's dead. It's what leads up to it that I care about.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I've been rat hunting on hog farms. The rats tunnel all under the feeder troughs. We stand around the perimiter of the trough with the dogs and then a couple of folks lift the trough.
> It's fast and furious and you don't want your dog waisting time on a dead rat. It's gonna miss out on the chase!
> In a barn full of ***** you can run into the same situation.


LOL. Reminds me of the mouse plague they had in Australia back in the 90's. Something like 100 million mice took over a couple of farms. An extreme case, of course, but also a humbling reminder of how quickly a vermin problem can get out of hand, and why good dogs are worth their weight in gold!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Lechernich said:


> LOL. Reminds me of the mouse plague they had in Australia back in the 90's. Something like 100 million mice took over a couple of farms. An extreme case, of course, but also a humbling reminder of how quickly a vermin problem can get out of hand, and why good dogs are worth their weight in gold!



I recall seeing that on the Animal Planet. Steve Irwin and his wife were scooping them up by the handsful.....well...he was.:lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob, thanks for the tip on the American badger v Euro badger, did a wee bit research and you're right enough on the different behaviour...you're right too about badgers being a very popular mammal over here.

Apologies in order to Carole for my misinformed and sarky comment...cheers Carole !


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Apologies in order to Carole for my misinformed and sarky comment...cheers Carole !


No need for apologies Maggie. I didn't think anything of your comment at all, just answered about how nasty they can be here in my area. 

Not a problem at all.

Thank you though, I appreciate it. ;-)


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