# Hunt Drive vs. Prey Drive



## Bart Karmich

How would you distinguish these? I know it may be a matter of semantics, but is there a difference between hunt and prey drive? How would you characterize each? Have you seen or could you describe a dog that had a lot of hunt but not much prey drive and vice versa, a lot of prey but not much hunt drive?


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## maggie fraser

Bart Karmich said:


> How would you distinguish these? I know it may be a matter of semantics, but is there a difference between hunt and prey drive? How would you characterize each? Have you seen or could you describe a dog that had a lot of hunt but not much prey drive and vice versa, a lot of prey but not much hunt drive?


I currently have one dog (gsd) which searches for golf balls everyday. He will not even lift his head if a squirrel calls by, or if another dog descends on him. I think of him as quite intense and focused. He does have prey drive, but it is (has become) secondary to his hunt drive. Is that any use to your question?


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## Bart Karmich

yeah.. what do you do with him? how would you train him differently? If you have a golf ball does he show prey motivation for it? Like if you toss it for him? Is it an obession with the golf balls that causes him to hunt them to play prey games with them or does he just enjoy the hunt for itself?


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## maggie fraser

Bart Karmich said:


> yeah.. what do you do with him? how would you train him differently? If you have a golf ball does he show prey motivation for it? Like if you toss it for him? Is it an obession with the golf balls that causes him to hunt them to play prey games with them or does he just enjoy the hunt for itself?


 
He does show prey motivation for the golf ball, and has become quite obsessive although there are no prey games on finding it. No real reward other than a calming kind of 'good boy' when he finds one....don't want to spin him up with too positive a reward. He immediately then continues to go and find the next one, he likes to work and hunt.


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## Guest

Bart Karmich said:


> How would you distinguish these? I know it may be a matter of semantics, but is there a difference between hunt and prey drive? How would you characterize each? Have you seen or could you describe a dog that had a lot of hunt but not much prey drive and vice versa, a lot of prey but not much hunt drive?


 
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/drive-vs-thresholds-19066/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f50/hunt-v-prey-18843/


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well I was quite pleased working my dog on HRD on a farm this weekend. Bunch of loose animals everwhere, one problem was set up inside a large shed with hundreds of free range chickens, turkeys, ducks, guineas, and peacoks ......... a small source of human muscle tissue had been hid in a nest box. 

It was a cacophany of noises and smells and motion that the dog completely ignored to find the target scent so he could get his ball. and he worked scenarios like this all weekend never loosing interest in the hunt. Most of these problems involved a lot of time in areas negative for the source odor. 

The goat that was running around and the baby calf that kept following us also did not cause any loss of focus. He can have a deer jump right up in front of us while working and not miss a lick. Unless the moving object is his ball there is no interest.

I think that is hunt drive - I am not sure about the prey drive. He will chase balls all day long but his joy is in possessing them more than chasing them.


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## Nicole Stark

Jody, me thinks you are a bit of a repetitive thread Nazi. Bart, my dog is a bit like that (higher hunt then prey) though she really doesn't have a lot of anything to give until something really turns her on. Then you might find yourself with a case of whiplash or hyper extended knee if you aren't paying attention.

She's nosey and likes to look for stuff. Being from a small town I can relate to that behavior and find it fairly easy to indulge. I just make stuff up for her to go looking for. It's like a sickness, she really can't seem to help being as nosey as she is so I always manage to find something for her to do. The reward is her nosing around through stuff or eating once she finds whatever I sent her looking for. That's about it and yeah, I am kinda being facetious - kinda.


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## Bob Scott

Pretty simple to me but then again there are a ton of interpretations on just about any word or term in dog training.
Prey is the desire to chase something it has in sight.
Hunt is the desire to find something it may never have seen.
Tremendous prey in a long dog but if it looses sight of the quarry it may or may not have the drive (hunt) to keep searching for it. 
A bird dog has tremendous hunt for the bird but is trained to hold position while the bird flies off. Lack of prey? It could be interpreted as that.
I've hunted with terriers that were strong on both. That can be a pia if you can't call one of rabbits, deer, etc.

Nancy, nice Job! :wink:


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## Dave Colborn

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Well I was quite pleased working my dog on HRD on a farm this weekend. Bunch of loose animals everwhere, one problem was set up inside a large shed with hundreds of free range chickens, turkeys, ducks, guineas, and peacoks ......... a small source of human muscle tissue had been hid in a nest box.
> 
> It was a cacophany of noises and smells and motion that the dog completely ignored to find the target scent so he could get his ball. and he worked scenarios like this all weekend never loosing interest in the hunt. Most of these problems involved a lot of time in areas negative for the source odor.
> 
> The goat that was running around and the baby calf that kept following us also did not cause any loss of focus. He can have a deer jump right up in front of us while working and not miss a lick. Unless the moving object is his ball there is no interest.
> 
> I think that is hunt drive - I am not sure about the prey drive. He will chase balls all day long but his joy is in possessing them more than chasing them.


Tell me if I am wrong, Nancy. First day training with this dog, would he hunt around chickens? Would he be interested in a prey item (ball) over the birds(PREY)? I would guess no. I think what you are seeing here is competing motivations that have been conditioned to let the dog know the ball is the ok part of this deal. Dog understands there is more of a reward in the ball from significant wins with a ball. I also think your dog probably has pretty significant prey drive to carry him through live prey to his fake prey (a ball).

I think hunt can be conditioned, we do it every day when teach a dog to find his toy, or dope or bombs. Prey drive has to be there to get the dog to hunt though. The amount of prey drive determines the possibility of how good the hunting will be. Some dogs are just naturally better at it. IE if it is low, he'll eat and hunt to find food when hungry. If prey drive is high, and it is bent towards a toy, then the hunt will be exceptional. Some dogs generalize the hunt better as well.

I agree with bob scott in general, I'd add a little. Prey =chase, catch, kill. Hunt = use nose or eyes to find and chase catch kill


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## Bob Scott

Dave said:
" Prey =chase, catch, kill. Hunt = use nose or eyes to find and chase catch kill"


Not always a given on the catch, kill WITH chase or hunt.
Most dogs will happily chase a cat all over kingdom come. The "average" dog will put the breaks on when the cat stops. They loose all "drive" for the catch kill.
We've selectively bred for some of the traits while breed away from others.

In the Coppinger book "DOGS' they talk about how a wild canid's Orient-eye-stalk-chase-grab-bite-kill-consume has been selectively bred for different combinations of these behaviors depending on what the dog is used for.
That's just a small part of where all the different interpretations can get ****** up. To many definitions for simple behaviors.


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> Dave said:
> " Prey =chase, catch, kill. Hunt = use nose or eyes to find and chase catch kill"
> 
> 
> Not always a given on the catch, kill WITH chase or hunt.
> Most dogs will happily chase a cat all over kingdom come. The "average" dog will put the breaks on when the cat stops. They loose all "drive" for the catch kill.
> We've selectively bred for some of the traits while breed away from others.
> 
> In the Coppinger book "DOGS' they talk about how a wild canid's Orient-eye-stalk-chase-grab-bite-kill-consume has been selectively bred for different combinations of these behaviors depending on what the dog is used for.
> That's just a small part of where all the different interpretations can get ****** up. To many definitions for simple behaviors.


Why do they not attack the cat? Risk vs reward? Not hungry? Had their ass handed to them by their owner or their cat? Low prey drive, but enough to chase? Could we take a mediocre dog and not feed him, and get him spun up enough to eat a cat?


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## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> Why do they not attack the cat? Risk vs reward? Not hungry? Had their ass handed to them by their owner or their cat? Low prey drive, but enough to chase? Could we take a mediocre dog and not feed him, and get him spun up enough to eat a cat?



That would be hard to say. The easy answer would be, Depends on the dog or all the above but I think most pets anyway just don't have it in them to do more then chase. 
How many so called working dogs just don't have that catch, kill in them. Anyone that trains police K9s will tell you that. Most will tell you that with many dogs you won't really know till the dog has it's first street bite. 
Take any bite sport dog and how many can anyone honestly say could do the job of a street K9.


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> That would be hard to say. The easy answer would be, Depends on the dog or all the above but I think most pets anyway just don't have it in them to do more then chase.
> How many so called working dogs just don't have that catch, kill in them. Anyone that trains police K9s will tell you that. Most will tell you that with many dogs you won't really know till the dog has it's first street bite.
> Take any bite sport dog and how many can anyone honestly say could do the job of a street K9.


So it may not have anything to do with the desire to chase catch kill, but more self preservation (Cat/owner kicking his ass).

Why does a dog hunt, bob?


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## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> So it may not have anything to do with the desire to chase catch kill, but more self preservation (Cat/owner kicking his ass).
> 
> Why does a dog hunt, bob?


Simple answer is instincts.
More complicated answer could be channeling those instincts through proper training.
Not all dogs have the instincts anymore and not all can be trained.


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> Simple answer is instincts.
> More complicated answer could be channeling those instincts through proper training.
> Not all dogs have the instincts anymore and not all can be trained.



Instinct to what? Eat? Breed? It always comes back to chase catch kill. Or reproduce. Maybe a kong filled with scent o bitch. This may be a big idea. Getting some male dogs to hunt for some wild rewards...


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## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> Instinct to what? Eat? Breed? It always comes back to chase catch kill. Or reproduce. Maybe a kong filled with scent o bitch. This may be a big idea. Getting some male dogs to hunt for some wild rewards...



I don't recall who it was/is but there is a breeder out there that requires his stud dog to do an obedience routine before it is allowed to breed.
We'll agree to disagree about it always coming back to chase catch kill. Not all dogs still have all of those instincts combined due to breeding away from them. Show line dogs are a perfect example. Some have it but most don't. 
I'm gone for the night! \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Take any bite sport dog and how many can anyone honestly say could do the job of a street K9.

Buko could. Esko could, Soda Pop could, had many in the past that could. 

You have to remember how much more control we place on our dogs than they do. You could easily spin the dog the other way. We constantly do things that take away from what they would want. Most people put their dogs under their thumbs without even knowing they are doing so.

Look at the posts Bart has put up in the last few weeks, he is squashing his dog and doesn't even know that he is doing wrong, as he reads how others play with their dog, and just does that, and is not paying any attention to what is going on in the dog. I remember him saying "I have been playing tug with the dog for over a year, and he should be able to handle some rough "play".

I am pretty hard on a dog. Not sort of, or kind of, I am hard on a dog. I try not to be hard on a dog, but fail a lot. It is not always giving them a correction, it is making the dog do an exercise over and over and over, or working them past where most people would have put the dog away long ago.

I only worry about the heat, but if it is cold out, I will work a dog until I am tired. It is one of the ways I weed them out. Kevin is always telling me I work the dogs way too long. I worked Buko every day for a month and a half before Nationals last year. I have never been easy on a dog that way. 

I am trying to change this, but I also can get an awful lot accomplished. Maybe we go and work for two hours, but when I am done, the dog (other than Buko) gets the point, and 95% of the time, we are having fun.

Esko loves it when we train like that, Soda, who I only train here and there loves it when I spend a couple hours working with her. Only problem with that is if I do it, I cannot get her off the field after a short session without yelling and blustering.


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## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Take any bite sport dog and how many can anyone honestly say could do the job of a street K9.
> 
> Buko could. Esko could, Soda Pop could, had many in the past that could.
> 
> You have to remember how much more control we place on our dogs than they do. You could easily spin the dog the other way. We constantly do things that take away from what they would want. Most people put their dogs under their thumbs without even knowing they are doing so.
> 
> Look at the posts Bart has put up in the last few weeks, he is squashing his dog and doesn't even know that he is doing wrong, as he reads how others play with their dog, and just does that, and is not paying any attention to what is going on in the dog. I remember him saying "I have been playing tug with the dog for over a year, and he should be able to handle some rough "play".
> 
> I am pretty hard on a dog. Not sort of, or kind of, I am hard on a dog. I try not to be hard on a dog, but fail a lot. It is not always giving them a correction, it is making the dog do an exercise over and over and over, or working them past where most people would have put the dog away long ago.
> 
> I only worry about the heat, but if it is cold out, I will work a dog until I am tired. It is one of the ways I weed them out. Kevin is always telling me I work the dogs way too long. I worked Buko every day for a month and a half before Nationals last year. I have never been easy on a dog that way.
> 
> I am trying to change this, but I also can get an awful lot accomplished. Maybe we go and work for two hours, but when I am done, the dog (other than Buko) gets the point, and 95% of the time, we are having fun.
> 
> Esko loves it when we train like that, Soda, who I only train here and there loves it when I spend a couple hours working with her. Only problem with that is if I do it, I cannot get her off the field after a short session without yelling and blustering.


Jeff. Everyone knows bite sport dogs don't bite. Stop being silly. Genetically they can't do it.

I passed north of San Antonio recently headed to El Paso. Had a desire to come see you and your dogs. I shook it off. This time. I don't agree with some of the shit you say, but I'd walk away better from talking to you, I'd bet on it. Even if it just stirred up the fire a little to prove to myself that you are wrong about something. That and a little part of me wants to see some mondio stuff.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What was I thinking ? LOL


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## Howard Gaines III

Dave Colborn said:


> Jeff. Everyone knows bite sport dogs don't bite. Stop being silly. Genetically they can't do it...


 Is that b/c their mouth is too small? :-$


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## Gerald Guay

In the early 80's these is the definitions I got at a seminar from a German decoy.

Hunt = to find, to locate.
Chase = to pursue.
Prey = catch and kill. (overlaps with next one if prey fights back)
Prey fight = fight with prey...............all the way to defense.

GG


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## Bart Karmich

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Look at the posts Bart has put up in the last few weeks, he is squashing his dog and doesn't even know that he is doing wrong, as he reads how others play with their dog, and just does that, and is not paying any attention to what is going on in the dog. I remember him saying "I have been playing tug with the dog for over a year, and he should be able to handle some rough "play".


That's fair. Honestly, I am concerned about doing this. The reason you see that trend in my posts is because I am sitting here thinking, "where did I go wrong?" I am not seeing what I thought I would see in my dog. I thought he would be more like "those other dogs." So I am not simply playing like others do but in oblivion to my dog's reactions, but I'm also wondering, am I squashing this dog? because of what I see in him.

I raised the puppy from the beginning mindful not to do things that might cause drive suppression. Obviously I have doubts about whether I succeeded or not. I also did the things I thought would reward the expression of his instictual "prey drive." For example, I played tug with the puppy from day 1 and now he's about a year and a half. In all that tug play, I let him "win" the tug almost all the time. I never ripped it off him. I either stole it because his possession lacked or I gave him an out command and a opportunity to win it back. How did I teach the out? By freezing the toy and stopping play until he outed and then rewarded him by immediately starting play again. As for playing rough, it is a balance between being too rough or too soft. If I am too soft, the tug is freaking boring right?

I could go on and say what a great job I did raising the puppy, but the bottom line is yes, I have doubts about squashing this dog. I see a ton of hunt drive compared to prey and it makes me wonder how did I jack up the prey?


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## maggie fraser

Bart, what is it exactly you want from your dog, what is it you would you like to do with your dog? 

What is the big deal to you drawing academic distinctions between prey and hunt drive, when it seems you are apparently experiencing difficulty in reading and understanding the behaviour on a fairly basic level?

Are you reading about dogs so as you are able to discuss a little about them without actually understanding....or is it a trick question of yours ? "_ I could go on and say what a great job I did raising the puppy, but the bottom line is yes, I have doubts about squashing this dog. I see a ton of hunt drive compared to prey and it makes me wonder how did I jack up the prey?_ "

I know with my particular dog, I subdued/squashed, or at best, did not feed his prey drive in order to or as a result, develop his hunt drive I suppose. That is on account of him having a spinal condition whereby focused and steady activity is more appropriate and enables him to lead somewhat of a stimulating life (or at least provides some release/outlet for his drive), for a dog with a handicap.

I just thought I'd elaborate a little on that detail.

Are you suggesting pronounced hunt drive comes about by squashing the prey drive?


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## Joby Becker

a dog will HUNT his obsession. that can be his toy, object that leads to a toy, prey, or adversary.

what is the question again? LOL...

I never worked on hunt drive promotion when dog was a young dog, her best hunt is for toys she likes and guys to bite.


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> a dog will HUNT his obsession. that can be his toy, object that leads to a toy, prey, or adversary.


Ya, and those are the best kind for sure. But there are some who hunt just for the sake of doing it and by that I mean it simply - just looking for shit. Bart, I don't know how often you make yourself available to this dog of yours but has the thought ever crossed your mind that you are simply too accessible to the dog? 

I went through that same crap, why me, what did I do wrong, etc. I figured out that this dog of mine is just wired a quite a bit differently than I was accustomed to. It was a little like trying to play a game of pool with a catchers mitt. Anyway, find something else for the dog to do, put the rules you should be playing by aside, and put some distance between you and the dog. See what happens. It takes time and maybe you will get what you want out of your dog, maybe you won't but if you can stop thinking about it for a while and just go with the flow of what feels right you might see things from a different perspective.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> if you can stop thinking about it for a while and just go with the flow of what feels right you might see things from a different perspective.


100% agree


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## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> a_* dog will HUNT his obsession. that can be his toy, object that leads to a toy, prey, or adversary.*_
> 
> what is the question again? LOL...
> 
> I never worked on hunt drive promotion when dog was a young dog, her best hunt is for toys she likes and guys to bite.


 
Isn't that just prey drive...using his instint of hunt to find his prey?:idea:


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## Joby Becker

Jody Butler said:


> Isn't that just prey drive...using his instint of hunt to find his prey?:idea:


I guess if pvc (and whatever else you tease a tied out dog with...metal pipe, ball, tug, wood, towel whatever) and a human is prey???...(hunt kill eat) then YES....


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## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> I guess if pvc (and whatever else you tease a tied out dog with...metal pipe, ball, tug, wood, towel whatever) and a human is prey???...(hunt kill eat) then YES....


 
Maybe Smartguy Mr. Colburn will explain? I remember a discussion about this sometime ago...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: That's fair. Honestly, I am concerned about doing this. The reason you see that trend in my posts is because I am sitting here thinking, "where did I go wrong?" I am not seeing what I thought I would see in my dog

This is good. You are doing what you need to do to get better.


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## Bob Scott

Bart, I didn't really catch where you were going with the questions. DUH! That's on me. Jeff caught it!
Bottom line is you need to have fun with the dog and not try so hard.


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## Joby Becker

Jody Butler said:


> Maybe Smartguy Mr. Colburn will explain? I remember a discussion about this sometime ago...


maybe...


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## Don Turnipseed

Hunt drive/prey drive.... it is the same thing...the prey drive is what drives the hunt. Dogs with that won't hunt for something unseen don't have enough prey drive to start with. IMHO of course. How many dogs do you see that have great hunt drive and zero prey drive?


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Hunt drive/prey drive.... it is the same thing...the prey drive is what drives the hunt. Dogs with that won't hunt for something unseen don't have enough prey drive to start with. IMHO of course. How many dogs do you see that have great hunt drive and zero prey drive?


?? not sure..

if prey drive is prey and hunt...(hunt kill eat)???

what drive is being satisfied from a dog hunting, finding, and possessing a piece of metal or pvc pipe, with no further reward or prey object? dogs cannot kill and do not eat metal or pvc...


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## Don Turnipseed

Last time I watched dogs in prey chasing balls and such...they never got to eat them either. Doing bitework in prey...what does the dog get to eat? Chewing on and eating isn't the same. So, how many dogs have you seen with great hunt and no prey. Prey is why they hunt...in the hunting world anyway.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Last time I watched dogs in prey chasing balls and such...they never got to eat them either. Doing bitework in prey...what does the dog get to eat? Chewing on and eating isn't the same. So, how many dogs have you seen with great hunt and no prey. Prey is why they hunt...in the hunting world anyway.


chewing? who said anything about chewing??? LOL

just stirring the pot. I have never seen good hunt without good prey personally, although others seem to have seen it.


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> ?? not sure..
> 
> if prey drive is prey and hunt...(hunt kill eat)???
> 
> what drive is being satisfied from a dog hunting, finding, and possessing a piece of metal or pvc pipe, with no further reward or prey object? dogs cannot kill and do not eat metal or pvc...


Ok, try this. Dog doesn't have to go through all this to eat any more. All these exercises simulate what nature programmed dogs to do. He now gets excited over a fast moving ball. If yopu put the ball on a string and lay a track with it, he will track up that ball with enthusiam if he know that is what he has to do to eat. Quit feeding your dog and teach him this is what it takes and you can get him to track anything. That would be realistic.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

This is why discussing drives is goofy. The more you break down "prey" instead of getting clearer, it gets muddier.

Instead, the OP needs to find a club and get some help with his dog and his misunderstanding of the difference between his ideas of what the dog is thinking and what the dog is actually thinking.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, try this. Dog doesn't have to go through all this to eat any more. All these exercises simulate what nature programmed dogs to do. He now gets excited over a fast moving ball. If yopu put the ball on a string and lay a track with it, he will track up that ball with enthusiam if he know that is what he has to do to eat. Quit feeding your dog and teach him this is what it takes and you can get him to track anything. That would be realistic.


interesting take on it. I would agree if a dog had to track for food he would, is tracking the same as hunting?


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is why discussing drives is goofy. The more you break down "prey" instead of getting clearer, it gets muddier.
> 
> Instead, the OP needs to find a club and get some help with his dog and his misunderstanding of the difference between his ideas of what the dog is thinking and what the dog is actually thinking.


Which is exactly why larger police departments teach a particular way. In a sense it's a club. Whether the definitions "I" use in "my" program are agreed upon by other trainers, or discussions isn't all that important. What is important is; when an officer gets on the witness stand, he testifies to what he was taught. It eliminates the arguement. 

I liken it to using an intoximeter. There was a time when you would almost have to explain how an intoximeter worked. Now, the court says, all you have to be able to testify too is; you were trained, certified and used in the matter prescribed. Let the arguments to the "experts". The working people just need a name to hang on to a behavior, so that those training with you know what you mean. The important line of communication is with those you train.

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> interesting take on it. I would agree if a dog had to track for food he would, is tracking the same as hunting?


No, it isn't an interesting take at all Joby. I am not sure how all this hunt drive got construed as something separate in the first place. A coyote goes into stealth mode by a patch of high grass, he knows a rabbit is in there but can't see it. Coyote moves quietly and deliberately into the grass, suddenly he sees slight movement and pounces. How can you separate the first part from the second?

Ok, you are using a ball with a dog that is nuts about his ball....so it goes like this,

A dog goes by a patch of high grass, he knows his ball is in there but can't see it. Dog walks into the grass because he already knows the ball won't run. He sees it, picks it up and takes it to you. Dog was never in a drive. May as well be taking a nap.

Then there is the next thing that separates them from the first two. Involving a dog that likes a ball well enough to chase it on a visual.

A dog goes by a patch of high grass, he knows his ball is in there but can't see it. Dog goes and takes a nap.

Tracking isn't much different. You let the dog smell and article, he does his job and trackes it up, no drives involved. It is his job. No different than people. The only drive people get into when going to their job is their car. How do you get a dog to do a job like track a scent article? Put a reward he values at the end of it. Dogs don't have control of drives, drives control the dog. If this dog don't hunt, it is because he has no prey drive. This is why you can teach a dog a job that has no prey drive on his own. A lot of bird dogs will retrieve because they are taught to retrieve. It is a job.....just don't drop a bird in the tullies because he won't spend time looking for it unless he knows the hand signals. Retrieving is not hunting...it is a job like tracking.


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## Bart Karmich

Nicole Stark said:


> Ya, and those are the best kind for sure. But there are some who hunt just for the sake of doing it and by that I mean it simply - just looking for shit. Bart, I don't know how often you make yourself available to this dog of yours but has the thought ever crossed your mind that you are simply too accessible to the dog?
> 
> I went through that same crap, why me, what did I do wrong, etc. I figured out that this dog of mine is just wired a quite a bit differently than I was accustomed to. It was a little like trying to play a game of pool with a catchers mitt. Anyway, find something else for the dog to do, put the rules you should be playing by aside, and put some distance between you and the dog. See what happens. It takes time and maybe you will get what you want out of your dog, maybe you won't but if you can stop thinking about it for a while and just go with the flow of what feels right you might see things from a different perspective.


 
This is interesting. What kind of dog do you think benefits from social isolation? Why? My dog has access to people 24x7. Personally I am spending several hours in the morning and evening with him. Typically we are walking around sniffing up critters and getting exercise. Sometimes I take a bike and sometimes I walk. I am not trying to train. Other than that he hangs out with people in the house from the time he wakes up until he falls asleep. If it is not the time he expects to get fed or go for a walk he usually lays down at my feet or paws at me for attention. He likes to just sit with his paws on me. I will try to get him to play with toys, a ball or a tug or something and if he plays it is not with much enthusiasm, not compared to the drive I see hunting critters. He's like a hound dog, mad on the trail and other than that he likes to lay back. Maybe I suck at playing but that's not what the people at the clubs are telling me. They say the dog needs to mature. Maybe I am fretting. Yeah go to the clubs, but lately the weather is canceling all the practices.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, it isn't an interesting take at all Joby. I am not sure how all this hunt drive got construed as something separate in the first place. A coyote goes into stealth mode by a patch of high grass, he knows a rabbit is in there but can't see it. Coyote moves quietly and deliberately into the grass, suddenly he sees slight movement and pounces. How can you separate the first part from the second?
> 
> Ok, you are using a ball with a dog that is nuts about his ball....so it goes like this,
> 
> A dog goes by a patch of high grass, he knows his ball is in there but can't see it. Dog walks into the grass because he already knows the ball won't run. He sees it, picks it up and takes it to you. Dog was never in a drive. May as well be taking a nap.
> 
> Then there is the next thing that separates them from the first two. Involving a dog that likes a ball well enough to chase it on a visual.
> 
> A dog goes by a patch of high grass, he knows his ball is in there but can't see it. Dog goes and takes a nap.
> 
> Tracking isn't much different. You let the dog smell and article, he does his job and trackes it up, no drives involved. It is his job. No different than people. The only drive people get into when going to their job is their car. How do you get a dog to do a job like track a scent article? Put a reward he values at the end of it. Dogs don't have control of drives, drives control the dog. If this dog don't hunt, it is because he has no prey drive. This is why you can teach a dog a job that has no prey drive on his own. A lot of bird dogs will retrieve because they are taught to retrieve. It is a job.....just don't drop a bird in the tullies because he won't spend time looking for it unless he knows the hand signals. Retrieving is not hunting...it is a job like tracking.


I have never had a dog that hunts with its eyes. Sometimes I thought they were blind as a bat..

the bird dogs I have seen have hunt drive and prey drive out the wazoo...

I was commenting on the dog working for food aspect of your post..that is what I said was an interesting take on the subject.


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## Don Turnipseed

I thought maybe you already left for St Louis Joby.

Joby said,


> I have never had a dog that hunts with its eyes.


You working a blind dog or does he just reach such a high state of euphoria his eyes are closed in anticipation. You sure you wouldn't like to rescind that statement? :grin:


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## Dave Colborn

Jody Butler said:


> Maybe Smartguy Mr. Colburn will explain? I remember a discussion about this sometime ago...



What is the question?


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> I thought maybe you already left for St Louis Joby.
> 
> Joby said,
> 
> 
> You working a blind dog or does he just reach such a high state of euphoria his eyes are closed in anticipation. You sure you wouldn't like to rescind that statement? :grin:


Not til Sunday...

LOL...I meant hunt with nose. Not talking about Coyotes..I am not referring to live prey either, irrelevant to me. 

if object is visible (not hidden) of course dog will see it eventually unless it is 100% blind...Your scenarios are based on visibility, I said I never had a dog that hunts with his eyes, it is nose, when dog sees what he is hunting, he is not hunting anymore, in regards to what I was saying. Once he sees it the hunt is over.

not sure if we are areeing or not LOL....what is the point again?

this is your 2 scenarios..


> 1)
> A dog goes by a patch of high grass, he knows his ball is in there but can't see it. Dog walks into the grass because he already knows the ball won't run. He sees it, picks it up and takes it to you. Dog was never in a drive. May as well be taking a nap.


way i see it is dog cannot see his ball, he hunts for it with his nose, dog goes into grass to find ball with his nose, he goes in grass to find ball period, the ball not running does not really have anything to do with dog entering grass, dog goes into grass looking for his ball. Dog cannot find ball easily and searches for it for 10 minutes methodically until he locates it by scent, when he finally gets on it he can see it.and gets it.. he is using hunt drive. 

Take this example. go outside, bury tennis ball under 6 inches of snow somewhere in the yard, or under the dirt.. Ball is NOT visible. wait 30 minutes, take dog out outside, sit dog, let him sniff your hand with the tennis ball scent on it, or just tell him to FIND if that is how he works....dog takes off on his own and uses his nose, searching high and low to find his ball, for 10 minutes methodically, he smells ball and digs into snow or dirt to get it, he cannot see it until it is dug out, that is hunt drive.



> 2)
> Then there is the next thing that separates them from the first... Involving a dog that likes a ball well enough to chase it on a visual.
> 
> A dog goes by a patch of high grass, he knows his ball is in there but can't see it. Dog goes and takes a nap.


dog chases a ball on visual while it is moving....if ball is hidden in grass and dog does not see it, and goes and takes a nap, he is not using hunt drive at all....


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## Jim Nash

This has been fun to read . 5 long pages on something that should be pretty simple . Just another example of how the discussion of "Drives" sucka** nowadays . Way too many versions of something that was meant to clarify things and make training easier .


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jim Nash said:


> This has been fun to read . 5 long pages on something that should be pretty simple . Just another example of how the discussion of "Drives" sucka** nowadays . Way too many versions of something that was meant to clarify things and make training easier .


I respectfully disagree, if Don T aka "here's a pic of my dog by a dead pig " says it is so....it must be so.


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## Jim Nash

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I respectfully disagree, if Don T aka "here's a pic of my dog by a dead pig " says it is so....it must be so.


My apologies . I stand corrected . LOL .


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## Don Turnipseed

I see Gerry was up late last night to deliver one of his very normal "Gerry" posts.

*mod edit*.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Maybe I suck at playing but that's not what the people at the clubs are telling me. They say the dog needs to mature. Maybe I am fretting. Yeah go to the clubs, but lately the weather is canceling all the practices.

Here is some advice. Sell the dog, and get a different dog. If the second dog ends up sucking like the first one, then sell it and get a third. On the third dog, do everything completely different from the first two.

Even if this dog comes around, you are still going to be bitter about the dog. Also, dogs that suck do not come out of the crate to go for wonderful fulfilling walks. They stay stuck in their sucky crate until they prove themselves worthy.


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## leslie cassian

Bart Karmich said:


> This is interesting. What kind of dog do you think benefits from social isolation? Why? My dog has access to people 24x7. Personally I am spending several hours in the morning and evening with him. Typically we are walking around sniffing up critters and getting exercise. Sometimes I take a bike and sometimes I walk. I am not trying to train. Other than that he hangs out with people in the house from the time he wakes up until he falls asleep. If it is not the time he expects to get fed or go for a walk he usually lays down at my feet or paws at me for attention. He likes to just sit with his paws on me. I will try to get him to play with toys, a ball or a tug or something and if he plays it is not with much enthusiasm, not compared to the drive I see hunting critters. He's like a hound dog, mad on the trail and other than that he likes to lay back. Maybe I suck at playing but that's not what the people at the clubs are telling me. They say the dog needs to mature. Maybe I am fretting. Yeah go to the clubs, but lately the weather is canceling all the practices.


You (or human company) are a resource to your dog. If the dog has constant access to resources, then he won't feel any need to work for them. If I worked in a chocolate factory and could eat as much as I liked, I wouldn't be much motivated to do anything for the promise of chocolate as a reward. 

So if your dog isn't loaded with drive, you need to manipulate what you have. What does he want? What will he work hard to get?

My labx didn't have much drive. He liked to hang out and he liked his cookies, but he wasn't willing to work very hard for them and I wasn't willing to do what it would have taken to make him work for me - like let him go hungry for a day or two, so he really, really wanted a cookie. I just let him be the dog he was. My Mal wants to work. It's his idea of fun... he came hard-wired that way, all I had to do was run with it.

One of the things I learned at a seminar I attended was the idea of building a work ethic in your dog - the dog has to do something to get something. Or as the pet people say... nothing in life is free. Dog wants something, he has to work for it. Just try to make it fun.


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## Gillian Schuler

maggie fraser said:


> I currently have one dog (gsd) which searches for golf balls everyday. He will not even lift his head if a squirrel calls by, or if another dog descends on him. I think of him as quite intense and focused. He does have prey drive, but it is (has become) secondary to his hunt drive. Is that any use to your question?


My Dad had two Jack Russells and although an avid trainer of Airedales and Greyhounds, I must doubt his talents at training these two JRs but... the male JR found golf balls for him that he was able to sell back to the Golf Club where the dog had found them.

One embarrassiing moment was when Nick grabbed the golf ball that was "still in the game" and the man who had hit the shot got nasty!!! Nick, true to his worth, got nasty too. Dad retreated with both dogs.

Tina, the bitch, as a pup, on one of these outings, found a mouse in a bottle, and from them on searc hed bottles, much to Dad's disgust!!


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## maggie fraser

Yes Gillian, these golf balls go back to the club too. There are a lot of trees which border throughout this particular golf course and it's very hilly too, the views are panoramic from the top.

I've taught him the fairways are a no go area for the balls for when there are golfers on the prowl, we know the spots quite well now where some of the golfers experience a little difficulty (and where their vision is limited ). As we've pretty much cleared the course since the snow went in Jan/Feb, they are becoming a little harder to come by. Sometimes we have to be very quick ;-);-).....don't know who finds it more exciting, me or the dog.

I have a couple of hundred I'll pop into the club over the next couple of days.... we're starting to get dirty looks!


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## Bart Karmich

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Maybe I suck at playing but that's not what the people at the clubs are telling me. They say the dog needs to mature. Maybe I am fretting. Yeah go to the clubs, but lately the weather is canceling all the practices.
> 
> Here is some advice. Sell the dog, and get a different dog. If the second dog ends up sucking like the first one, then sell it and get a third. On the third dog, do everything completely different from the first two.
> 
> Even if this dog comes around, you are still going to be bitter about the dog. Also, dogs that suck do not come out of the crate to go for wonderful fulfilling walks. They stay stuck in their sucky crate until they prove themselves worthy.


 
No way. Seriously Jeff, you've been genuinely helpful to me and if I keep whining and bitching beyond this point I risk betraying that by having wasted your time. I just need to train my dog. I really like the dog and all my belly aching on here is an expression of self-doubt. The bottom line is the dog would rather be on vacation than work and I'm all conflicted about it because I think it's due to my inadaquacy as a trainer. I'm not bitter about the dog, but about my results as a dog trainer and the fact that it reflects on the dog who doesn't deserve it. I feel like a parent with a kid that's kind of a dud for now but it doesn't mean I want to trade him. I was a zero myself for a while. For me it took a miracle of God to get out. I'm getting help with the dog (from the clubs) and will make the most out of this dog I can, but if we're never in a trial with you he's still a good dog and I have other hobbies.


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## tracey schneider

what kind of dog is it? I must have read over that....

t


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## milder batmusen

I have a female gsd and I think she has alot of hunt drive as well as alot of preydrive

when we are out walking she is often searching for something to hun down birds,cats,and other animals

she does not have to see any of the animals she is searching for it herself and when she finds it she will try and hunt it down.
it is difficult to walk her besides a lake with ducks o other animals because she will try and catch them jumping in the water and swimming for a long time.

So she will like a hunting dog search for prey to hunt i believe that is hunt drive.

her prey drive is also exstrem for a gsd.


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## Peter Cavallaro

"Here is some advice. Sell the dog, and get a different dog. If the second dog ends up sucking like the first one, then sell it and get a third. On the third dog, do everything completely different from the first two.

Even if this dog comes around, you are still going to be bitter about the dog. Also, dogs that suck do not come out of the crate to go for wonderful fulfilling walks. They stay stuck in their sucky crate until they prove themselves worthy."

Jeff are you for real when you say this stuff, i know its normal to overblow things in interweb talk, i BS most of the time, no harm in that. but with you i can't tell what is bravado, what is real, what is a deliberate provocation etc. i mean if this is real - do you even like dogs, are you a mindless jock who uses dogs as an extension of your own ego - i don't get it n i don't get the menatlity behind these sort of posts.


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