# 12 week old Mal nervousness stomach



## Danielle A Scott (Jan 4, 2016)

My Mal pup Zelda gets the worst mucusy diarrhea when she's stressed. 

She also gets stressed for everything...
I haven't started crating her yet because of it. I have a section of the house blocked off so she can have a potty area and a play area while we're out and she's very good about only using the bathroom in her potty area, but when we're home and I take her outside she has a normal solid poop. But when I come home no matter how long I've been gone, her poop has turned into a watery mess. 

I am feeding her Merrick back country for puppies. She gets 2 cups a day, she was at 3, but the vet thinks over eating might be causing it. But there doesn't seem to be a change. 

She's also had explosive diarrhea every time I've taken her to puppy class. I guess the other dogs make her nervousness too. 

Any tips or pointers? I've never house trained a dog before, we've always rescued seniors, so I don't know if this is just a normal stage.


Thank you.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yike, sounds like a bad nerve Mal, if you are sure the diarrhea comes from stress, then you have to socialize the heck out of her to minimize the stress because that is the root of your problem.


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## Danielle A Scott (Jan 4, 2016)

We'll work on socializing. Once she's had her full vaccines, I'll be getting her into doggie daycare a few days a week.

It's funny because around our 8yo beagle she's the queen of the castle. She barks he gets out of bed so she can climb in (she has her own bed that's much cozier I think... But no... She has to have his.) she is pretty much his boss now and she's only been here 5 weeks. 

But take her around other puppies and she just cannot relax. It'd be cute if it weren't for the loose stomach. :-(


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

What do you intend to train her for? What activities?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Plain canned pumpkin might help keep things a bit more stable as you work through her issues. Most pups/dogs seem to like the taste and it won't hurt her to give her a heaping table spoon once or twice a day. Also, you might already be aware but you can expect that her stools may become infirm after being vaccinated and also throughout the teething phase. 

I agree with Khoi that it does sound like she's exhibiting nerve issues. Aside from being off around other puppies and when you leave what other triggers does she appear to have?

I've had pretty good luck house training my past several pups in under a week. The Dutch arrived with a call button, LOL. It was kind of cute because she started her stay doing that. Well, first she bit me with nasty intent over a pig ear, then later she barked when she had to go out. I thought, damn this is pretty cool. And it was, now when she's out of the kennel she rings a bell that I have hanging off the door when she wants to go outside.

Just a side note, there might be a method to my madness but I don't permit my puppies to dominate or overrule the position of existing dogs in the household. Could be just my own standard without necessity but I think my unwillingness to budge on that has allowed me to have multiples of same or opposite sex in the household without issues particularly once the younger one matures.


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## Danielle A Scott (Jan 4, 2016)

As soon as we get past basic obedience and recall training, we'll be joining a Schutzhund club.

Long term, I'd like for her to be a PTSD dog. I would like her to help my anxiety with going places alone, and for her to be able to get help in an emergency. 

I guess first we'll have to get past her anxiety though. Poor thing.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Interestingly, Shelle posted something about her own nervousness feeding into that of her own dogs. Think about that in the context of how you are feeling yourself when you expose her to something new. If you're uneasy this is likely transmitting to the pup. There's some thought that mental/emotional energy is transmitted like an electrical frequency that can be picked up on by others, such as your pup.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

- maybe the puppy classes are not a good idea ? what do you do there ?
- might be worse in doggy day care if left alone with others 
- how much time is the pup left alone ?
- what is your feeding schedule ? ("x"cups a day is insufficient info)
- what tests has you vet done ?
- how much time do you spend one on one in non stressful environments ?
- you haven't mentioned how you play with the pup or what it likes to do or not do
- poop hardeners might help if it is a physical problem but prob not very effective if it is a mental problem
- 'socializing the heck out of it' can mean many things; some might be good; some might make it worse. what does it mean to you and what do you do regarding socializing ?

adding more dots might make it easier for others to connect them


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of my GSDs used to have a nervous stomach and I got the same advice to make the meals small.

Instead of just cutting back I started feeding two meals a day.

It worked!

The pumpkin can also be a huge help.


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## Danielle A Scott (Jan 4, 2016)

She eats 3/4 cup at 4 am, so that she has time to go before I have to leave the house at 7. I get home at noon some days and 1600 on others. I give her another 3/4 cup of food at 1600. She gets a half cup at 1900 and I take her up to bed at around 2200. 

I believe it's nerves related because any big change seems to cause an accident. For example, I had turned an arm chair around on my bed so it was like a crib, and that's where she slept after a failed attempt at getting her to sleep in the crate. She slept well there being near me, but she wasn't in my bed which I read could cause boundary issues later on. 

After about 2 weeks and a growth spurt she was able to climb into bed, so I turned the chair around onto the wall about 2 feet away. She whined but didn't cry for about an hour and then seemed to fall asleep. She woke me up about an hour later crying and before I could get her to take her potty, she messed all over. I think she felt bad about it because as I was carrying her down to potty she kept licking my face and hands. (Maybe I'm just humanizing her though). 

I put the chair back close to my bed and she was fine the rest of the night, and then over a week I moved the chair little by little and she hasn't had another accident. 

Also, when I introduced her to stairs, she would climb a few and have diarrhea, climb a few and have diarrhea, even if it'd been hours since she ate and she'd had a solid stool after. Now she's ok with them without accidents.

During puppy class, it's just basic obedience, it's about 15 other pups and families in a large room and they have some leash free socialization. She does well for that part, but being on leash in that big room seems to make her nervous. I don't want to cut it because without it she won't meet other dogs except my old man beagle, and I don't think that will help her long term either.

The vet has tested her stool, and she recommended fiber one cereal, but I'm admittedly a little wary of feeding her grains even if it is half a cup. 

Not sure if I've answered everything, I'm on mobile and haven't figured out how to quote.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole's suggestion about the plain pumpkin is an excellent source of fiber and used by many for this very reason.


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## Danielle A Scott (Jan 4, 2016)

Oh, and we don't exactly have "one on one" time. She gets plenty of cuddles and affection every night, especially after my son goes to bed, she's not allowed on the couch if he's on it because she doesn't play gently and he's too young to understand that hitting her and kicking her just excites her more be makes her rougher. But we're working on that on both ends.

We also spend about 5 minutes after every potty trip working on sit, down, and stand.

As far as the dominance, I feed our beagle first, and I let him in first or release him from a sit first to go through a door before I let her go, other than that I kind of let them figure it out. I figured at first she was running on TPL, but at this point Snoopy may just be too tired to fight with her shenanigans. 


I really hugely appreciate all the help you guys have given so far. I was kind of thrust into the Mal life, but I'm trying to do what's best for her. She really is the sweetest pup, so much that I barely hold a grudge when I'm cleaning poop off of everything.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Is she still messing in the house?

If so one method of controlling that is to tether her to you.

That means keep her on leash and tie the other end of the leash around you.

No need for lots of commands. When you have to go into anther room just do it.

She'll have to follow and it also helps create a stronger bond when she with you.

In spite of your getting tossed into this it sounds like your heart is in it to wind up with a well mannered dog.

Do you understand marker training? 

It's an excellent form of training and the dog can learn and have fun at the same time.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anji, I worked with my pups on potty training in a manner that involved them sleeping on my bed. Well, all except the yard dart snipe (my dutch shepherd). I haven't found that it creates boundary issues but I imagine it can if there aren't clear boundaries set, as in that stops once the pup is able to sleep through the night without having to go out. Conversely, I found it's incredibly effective for a give and take relationship (this ties into what Bob asked about but sorta lets the pup control it in the opposite direction). As in the pup does something that I favorably respond to netting a positive experience and I'm also rewarded by there being few to no situations where I am cleaning up after the pup.

Usually by the third day the system is down and 7-10 days into it I'm pretty much done - to include the bell ringing. In between, if I am not doing something constructive with the pup I have them put up and I always make sure that I stick to an evening food and water schedule (cut off time) to help that out along with making sure that within 10-15 minutes of waking or after a meal the pup goes out.

I have done the tether thing and with the wrong situation (temperament of the dog) you can create a problem where the dog won't want to leave your side and can create dependency issues if not balanced out. It however does help with some aspects of training. My house training approach is simple and I don't deviate from it. It's been too successful so far for me to feel a need to stop or alter what I have done.

Also, Merrick was purchased by Purina somewhat recently. From what I understand they are not required to disclose a change of ingredients/processing until 6 months after the business transaction. I believe that the buyout occurred sometime during the summer. This was a food I recommended and fed until I learned about that.

One more thing, if the pup has to be alone for a prolonged period of time - as in while I am at work, I will feed the lesser quantity of food in the AM and the balance upon my return to work or, if I take the pup with me, during my work schedule. I'm sure you've figured this out but the feeding amounts don't have to be balanced. Hungry is not a bad thing at this age. I will leave the pup with something to chew on that does produce food at a slower rate - pups with lower food drive and weaker jaw strength can take and hour or more to eat a pig ear for example. A kong with kibble inside might be something else to offer instead of a full meal. This way she and her mind is occupied with something more productive than stress and resulting discharge.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

?? i still haven't read how you PLAY with this pup and exercise it
- how are you socialising and how are you building confidence ? these can both be accomplished during play sessions
- EVERY nervy (but otherwise healthy) dog i’ve seen is both over-reactive and lacking in confidence

re:"Oh, and we don't exactly have "one on one" time.
--that's bad and won’t help 

"She gets plenty of cuddles and affection every night,"
— in my opinion, that won't help build a lot of confidence...it might even border on coddling, which is not good either.
- i would do the opposite and PLAY vigorously and interactively. wear it out; which is not too hard to do with a pup.
**don't** cuddle til the pup is out of gas and ready to crash 
- specifically, how are you trying to build its confidence ?

by the way….it’s a mal…it should have some prey drive, be mouthy and like to bite. what are you doing to cultivate and control those instincts ? being too restrictive regarding biting can be a confidence killer too

a poop test would not be all i would want a vet to check
a number of other conditions could be responsible for the frequent runs
- what did the vet rule out so far ? that is the normal way to isolate and diagnose a problem...just seems toooo easy to recommend a specialised high fiber diet that you will probably have to buy at the vet

but it also seems like there are definitely environmental factors that exacerbate the problem. this might mean you need to make some lifestyle changes and do things differently than the way you are doing them now

was this dog purchased from a pet store or from a mal breeder ?

i'd be glad to lay out an alternative program if you don't have any success with the suggestions you've already received, so PM me if there isn't any improvement and you are willing to try some new approaches

"especially after my son goes to bed, she's not allowed on the couch if he's on it because she doesn't play gently and he's too young to understand that hitting her and kicking her just excites her more be makes her rougher. But we're working on that on both ends."
-- HOW ? a young mal WILL play rough and there is nothing wrong with that (in my mind) as long as it is with You and boundaries are taught with a firm hand...your young one needs to learn boundaries too. what specifics have you taught regarding this ? all too often it is just scolding one or the other when they misbehave and that teaches both very little. i have seen this a LOT in family situations with pups and kids mixing it up

"We also spend about 5 minutes after every potty trip working on sit, down, and stand."
-- AFTER the potty trip ?? ... how are you connecting potty trips with the OB ?
why do you feel the need to expose the pup to other pups ? ... i see very few puppy training sessions that benefit all the pups  
- 'puppy classes' are not all created equal...some are a downright clusterfxxks :-(
- usually it's more of a mixed bag with the 'leader' having a hard time watching all the pups, and the owners having a hard time trying to keep their pups focused on them. worse if the owners are a mixed bag of inexperienced/first time owners and lacking in training skills, etc
- i would suggest if you DO take the pup around other pups to focus on getting the pup focussed on YOU and ignoring the other pups. conditioning the pup that it’s just background noise to be ignored and that YOU are the source of all things interesting.
- as you can probably tell, i’m not a big fan of puppy classes //LOL//
- nor do i care for doggy day care; which often makes the dog more ‘doggy’ //LOL//
- teaching obedience and puppy tricks does not often cure a nervy dog and give it confidence. it often just gives the owner more control over their nervous dog 

as a test of your bond with your pup…go to a dog park and stay outside 15-20 meters from the fence 
- will your pup play with you and ignore the distractions ?
- if not, that might be a good place to start 

if everything fails, you might want to give it to someone experienced who will spend a LOT of time with it and address the problems directly. not what you want to hear, but maybe best for the pup if you care a lot about it

best of luck no matter what you do


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I take socializing a nervous dog over full vaccinations any day


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## Danielle A Scott (Jan 4, 2016)

Not sure where to start. 

As far as play and exercise, we spend about an hour in the back yard when we get home, we do a bunch of different things but her favorite game is of course chase the toddler all over the playground. If the weather is decent we'll go for a walk too but we live in Virginia and the weather is different every day.

I don't know anything about her lineage except that her dad was a border patrol dog and that she was from an accidental litter. I got her at 7 wo from my mom who literally gave her to my son the day before we were supposed to fly back from Texas. 

Taking her out to potty makes her very excited, so when we come in I wait for her to wind down and when she's calm (for her) we work on her commands but only for a few minutes at a time.

The puppy class is mostly for the socialization. Since she was taken from her litter so young, I read that it was important for her to be exposed to other dogs so she could learn dog hierarchy and behaviors. The instructor is actually pretty on top of it, she points out the different behaviors and explains them and tells us what we can do if we need to curb an unwanted behavior.

She's allowed to bite, she's just not allowed to bite my kid. If she starts biting him, I get her attention and offer her her bully chew, a rawhide roll, or a toy. I praise her when she chew on the right thing and I redirect her when she chews on my kid or something inappropriate. We don't really do positive punishment.

As for my kid, if she's biting him he's supposed to get a toy and try to get her to get the toy instead. This one is hard though because he's 3 and he freaks out and squeals (which excited her), I also am a little wary of her associating biting him with getting a toy.

I'm not sure if the toys we have help her prey drive, but they were recommended by one of the trainers at the pet store (which isn't where she goes to puppy class). One is a furry thing on a stick, like the cat toys but sturdier for dogs, and she likes to chase that around. The other is a laser. I let my son use both so he can play with her in a safe way for him, but I don't know if that constitutes one on one time.

I will eventually be involving her in a Schutzhund club, but I think that it's very important for her to know her basic obedience commands and for her to have recall first. I don't want her to get so excited and run into the parking lot or something.

I've considered finding her an experienced home, in fact I consider it every time I clean a wet poop off the floor, but to be perfectly honest I'm not sure that anyone else would give her the care that I can. I mean sure I can meet you and you can tell me how much experience you have and how awesome you are with Mals, but in the end I don't know if you want her to build her up or if you just want a breeder or a bait dog or a million other things that I worry about. 

She may never reach her full potential if she stays with me, but I know she'll never be mistreated or abandoned, and I know I'll always do my best to learn what she needs and how I can give it to her. I can't say that of anyone else. If that makes sense.


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## Danielle A Scott (Jan 4, 2016)

Rabies is required for the club and all the doggie daycares, and the vet won't do it till 14 weeks.


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## Danielle A Scott (Jan 4, 2016)

Just wanted to update in case anyone else has this problem.

All her bloodwork came back normal, so the vet recommended a pheromone collar and calming treats. 

We use the collar all the time, and the treats seem to help for puppy school and any time she's going to be more stressed than usual. 

No more runny stools.

Im just worried that she'll become dependent on the collar and treats, but I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get there.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Danielle A Scott said:


> Rabies is required for the club and all the doggie daycares, and the vet won't do it till 14 weeks.


Why do you want to put your dog in a doggie daycare? It is something I will never do to my dogs. I wish you the best luck with your malinois puppy.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

What is doggy day care?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> What is doggy day care?


 Think *kids*. That's what it is.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Those that use the "doggie day care" are working people that don't have time to care for the pup/dog during the day so they send them to doggie day care.

Somewhat understandable but I personally don't like it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

there are as many varieties of doggy day care as there are dog parks
- no two are alike
- the reasons why people use them are vastly different
- totally dependent on the type of dogs that are there and the people who are with the dogs inside
- can change from one day to another
- if you trust your dog to be tossed into a group of other dogs without your control and trust the people managing them ... go for it

based on my definitions above, i see no reasons to use them 
... but they can still be good places to train around for a variety of things you might want to train for, so i view them strictly as training aids

i doubt a PSA trainer would have much use for them since even though they would be great real world distractions for PPD training, i doubt the management would allow bite work to be done in the vicinity of either a dog park or a doggy day care center //rotflmao//
- too bad, since real world environments are not easy to find and there's a limit to how much you can do on a training field


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't know about other places, but our local dog park won't allow kids inside unattended...only dogs


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

sounds like less nerves are = less runny stools. that's good to hear. 
so more confidence building through pups learning, and working out how to play the games and get rewards will help a lot.

I provide _doggy day care_ for my son's dog. He is an escape artist, and likes to worry sheep/cattle for a hobby. So he stays with me, and i try not to shoot him myself at times. Much less so, now he's no longer a pup!

You mention you would like to do IPO with this pup. But will wait till you have a recall that's solid. 
Can i suggest, that going now, will assist you with obtaining that recall! a LOT quicker, and help out with everything you are trying to do alone right now. And a trainer loves a blank canvas! As opposed to some established training, intended and unintended (like bite child = you give it a reward (toy). 
Far easier to be shown how, live in the moment the behaviour is occurring, than being told how on a dog forum in my opinion.
And will teach you how to grow the confidence in your pup, to settle those nerves. 

good luck


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

my question is what type of service dog is this prospect supposed to end up as?

if a mal is this stressed over everything, I would return to breeder, or cut my losses with this particular dog, and get on to the next one.

that is IF you arent just looking for a dog to have, or a pet, and even then I might do whatever was necessary to move on.

But I have a high standard for dogs, even pets...I think anyhow...

think return to breeder.....return to breeder...


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I have not seen this mentioned but have you treated him for giardia? Or even tested for it? 

You mentioned mucousy bowels and mucous is a sign of giardia. My current pup had it when I picked him up at 7 weeks old. After 2 weeks of loose stools, I figured out that it wasn't diet and it wouldn't hurt to put him on a course of metronidazole. Fixed him right up.

He also had cystitis too and a course of clavamox took care of that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll ditto Joby on this!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : " If she starts biting him, I get her attention and offer her her bully chew, a rawhide roll, or a toy. I praise her when she chew on the right thing and I redirect her when she chews on my kid or something inappropriate. We don't really do positive punishment."

therein lies the problem as i see it.
i doubt anyone will agree but i feel nervy dogs can be made less nervy with clear firm positive punishment. delivered in the right amount and at the right time and quickly followed by simple OB that gets short verbal/physical praise and not much more

in my opinion too much "purely positive, kind redirection" can confuse a dog because it is often delivered with a nagging kinda behavior on the part of the handler (i.e., too much talking to dog and/or kid while redirecting)

--- this is pretty much a rescue dog as i read the thread, so i don't think washing it or returning is being considered

as far as the kid and the dog interacting and "socializing"....
no idea how the kid is but it might be too early to train the kid to train the dog at ANY level. and when the kid is interacting the kid IS training the dog 
- i would make it crystal clear they are mutually "hands off" at this point in time and as the owner attempts to get better control of the dog, let the kid watch from a distance
- toys for either should never be left laying around; especially dog toys

OP may have left the thread anyway .....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I'll ditto Joby on this!


As would I, adding something else that if you read between the lines I know you both probably would agree with.

If you can work around the nervous temperament/defects in such a dog, great. However, having seen how stressed these "saved" animals are throughout their lives, I do think there is a more humane way of dealing with that situation. If you have to ask what I mean, you wouldn't understand the answer. Even if one does understand but disagrees, I respect that. 

I may be in the minority concerning that perspective but the advice of returning an unfit dog/pup to a breeder just compounds the issue and IMO contributes to the "problem". Someone inevitably is going to have to deal with the situation. Unfortunately, some do not handle fearful dogs well and take their hobbled emotional intelligence and training failures out on the dog when things go poorly.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree and yes, I do avoid training fearful dogs. 

For one think I don't have any desire to and for another reason I think a simple case of nerves can possibly be worked with but I think a truly fearful dog will probably spends it's lifetime in constant stress and I wouldn't do that to a dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

fearful dogs are very common problems in the pet world where people have not researched breeders and bloodlines and therefore get dogs with problems.
- or they rescue as is....

my preference would line up with Joby and Bob
but with that said ...

if an owner wants to help their nervous dog and go to a trainer it is the trainers responsibility to try and help them as best they can
i have experienced a LOT and have found things to do that helps the problem
- i have NEVER seen a nervy dog that couldn't be helped. some more than others, but without help they go NOWHERE. ALL dogs adapt; that's what makes them great no matter how bad a problem they have 
- experience teaches you things that work and things that don't
- not blowing my own horn Nicole...i have no horn to blow ](*,)

i always take the approach we are here to help people rather than discourage them by saying what we wouldn't choose to do
- i see dogs all the time that really don't match up with their owners, but i gave up telling them that a long time ago ...it's counterproductive and you are beating a dead horse. i show them small things that will help that they never considered. some get motivated and others don't

if the OP comes back and wants specifics i'd be glad to post more

"socialize the heck out of em" teaches NOTHING even tho it is the first thing mentioned when talking about building confidence, or reducing reactivity and/or fear


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

As a owner of just such a dog, that was a rescue.
In your average pet home, this dog is likely to continue to experience high stress.
My head agrees that it should be returned to breeder, put to sleep.
My emotions led me in another direction. And did just what you recommend: got me a trainer, and learnt lots fast. It worked for us. It was a huge commitment. I doubt most others would of been prepared to put the time and energy into such a dog. But who's to say the OP is not like this?

These dogs are the long haul. And i wish her luck, as i think its going to be needed. 

I totally get why as professionals, you would of run a mile, if id turned up to you asking for help with this dog, but im glad the one i found did not. The dog and i shared a very close bond. His trust, in spite of his fear.terror, was humbling. 

If my pup turns up and is nervous pup, of course i should return it. But not sure i could.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I may be in the minority concerning that perspective but the advice of returning an unfit dog/pup to a breeder just compounds the issue and IMO contributes to the "problem". Someone inevitably is going to have to deal with the situation. Unfortunately, some do not handle fearful dogs well and take their hobbled emotional intelligence and training failures out on the dog when things go poorly.


I do agree with this, and kinda said it an even more round about way..that was understated I am sure...

I think a lot of people dont want to eat the cost of the dog if a breeder will take it back and refund or exchange or whatever if there are choices of other pups from other dogs.

the problem comes in when the breeder would try to re-sell that dog or just give it away..

I personally would put down dogs returned to me with this type of problem, and would put them down if they were ones I had if the breeders would not take them back..

that is the part some people don't get, if you bred the litter you take the responsibility for it, and that does not always mean finding them good homes, or even finding them any homes sometimes...and it also means that you should take them off the planet if you put them there and they have major problems.

that was the unsaid part I left out, due to the recent trend of not being able to say you're an animal or even a dog lover because you dont think every dog should be saved at whatever cost...

I think I love dogs, but I sure have put quite a few down in my life, and not due to old age... this is a current argument I am having with someone close to me who likes to tell me I don't love dogs, I think its maybe because I am not IN LOVE with them...which I guess is the new trend as well...

well said Nicole


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

further off topic as usual, but i'll go with the flow and toss in my .05 //LOL//

i have not personally killed dogs myself, but i have recommended to owners that their dog be killed. besides Joby, who on this forum has pulled the trigger ?

reality check : 
- in our "modern world" culling and killing dogs that are judged by someone, or some court, to be unfit to live around humans has been relegated to vets, and there are fewer who will do it. i think they conveniently like to leave that to kill shelters, which have also been in the decline. but i would guess that is where most dogs get killed.
- it's also much easier(and maybe culturally acceptable?) to do this in a farm setting rather than in an urban environment
- actually a lot of our members have had their dogs killed, but probably have used more kinder gentler terms like "let it go", "put it down", or PTS, etc etc. it doesn't change the reality. you killed your dog. but you probably loved your dog as much as i do, so that makes you a dog lover in my opinion.....so PLEASE don't talk out of both sides of your mouth ](*,)

obviously i don't think the decision of whether to kill or not should be compared to how much someone loves dogs. i also think the portion of dogs who are a danger to people and need to be killed is a VERY small percentage of 'nervous dogs'.......which i thought this thread was about.....not whether to cull or not ](*,)](*,)](*,)

i'm a DOG LOVER. with that said, years ago i made a decision that if i couldn't be able to care for my dog it would have been killed rather than passed on to someone else. my wife also agreed since she also agreed she would not be able to care for it by herself. that decision stood for about seven years. we even found a vet who agreed with our decision.
fast forward---- i have since found someone who wanted to keep my dog after i was gone and they started working him almost daily. they worked their ass off !! they gained my complete trust and i have since changed that decision....all is good....the person also happens to be a female //LOL//

back to the point
you can return a dog and hope the breeder is responsible, but maybe if they were, they wouldn't have sold or given the dog to someone in the first place ??
- sorry ---- it happens, and most dogs that i have come across that are nervous, or lacking in confidence or trust in their owner, even if they have bitten a few people in the process, do NOT need to be killed. for me, to consider that as an option for these kind of dogs is being a quitter.
- sure, you can refuse or just "decline" to work with a nerve bag, reactive dog. that's your choice. maybe you just don't have the time or motivation. reality and life takes over. i get it
- but if you are a trainer, you should do your job as best you can but not lose sight of reality

- that's how i see the world, and i realise most of our members are owners and not trainers 

still think the thread would be more productive if the OP came back and made it interactive rather than wander off into other areas that won't have any effect on the way people train their dogs


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Are you asking who has put a gun to a dogs head and pulled the trigger or are you asking who has made the decision to release an unfit dog?

All of our threads eventually flow off topic, particularly when the OP doesn't stay vested in the thread. Who cares? Alright, I know you do but I don't really know why it seems to bother you as it does. When a conversation has run it's course it's pretty common for people to naturally change the subject or take it down a different path. Some just stop communicating altogether for reasons only they know.

Why would this mode of communication be any different? Ever try to hold a proper conversation with someone via text? That is, without question, one of the most useless forms of communication ever invented. Grunting and pointing is probably more effective, maybe even an occasional moon or tit flashing to keep things interesting. But then again, aside from emergencies I see cell phones as useless garbage and brain/social drains.

To be clear. My comments were not directed at the OP or her situation with this puppy. They were directed exactly as stated, in response to Joby and Bob's comments. Off topic? Depends who you ask, the topic was nervousness stomach. It's all relative.

I also made no statements/judgments about what degree of fearfulness or defective nerve issues might qualify a dog for release. That is not for me to put out there for discussion especially not on this forum. It's no one's business but my own and possibly any breeder associated with the situation. I do not need to have my standards approved by others in order to justify what it is I deem to be acceptable or necessary. Working with the dog to the extent necessary before such a decision is made, surely was a given.

Getting this back on track, the OP seems to have a sense about what she is dealing with and is willing to hang on for the long haul. That's cool and I hope she comes back and shares updates as time goes on.


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