# Elbow Bites



## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

What does everyone think about elbow bites? I know that some trainers train a dog to bite the elbow so that the dog can force the asailent to drop the weapon. 

Does anyone know how a dog is judged on that type of bite in a competition?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Elbow bites, well they hurt. Most of the time it's due to bad timing on the decoys part.

Most people are right handed and that's were the weapon will be. The dog in most cases, is presented the left arm and the decoy has a weapon in his right hand. If the dog bitting the left arm will make the bad guy drop a weapon in his right hand then that dog has a darn good grip.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Elbow bites, well they hurt. Most of the time it's due to bad timing on the decoys


 
Yep, elbow bites can sting and give you a good bruise! Totally agree on the bad timing decoy part also.:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Elbow bites, well they hurt. Most of the time it's due to bad timing on the decoys part.
> 
> Most people are right handed and that's were the weapon will be. The dog in most cases, is presented the left arm and the decoy has a weapon in his right hand. If the dog bitting the left arm will make the bad guy drop a weapon in his right hand then that dog has a darn good grip.


 
But what happens if the dog is trained to ignorre the left arm that is being presented and he goes for the left elbow? Will a dog be penalize from trying to dis-arm the decoy? I have seen decoys use the stick to intimidate a dog and the dog release the arm presented and engage the arm with the stick.

PP trainers training differently from sport dog trainers and sometimes, I think you have to re-programa dog that has been trained in PP versus sport and vice versa...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mari there is something else to think about. Yes, those elbow bites hurt and would have the bad guy going down FAST! In Schutzhund your B & H is done in front of the decoy and the dog cannot touch the decoy. For PP or service work, you would NEVER ask your dog to sit in front of the bad guy. If a bark and hold is done, you do it 6-8 feet away for the dog's safety. We train for the bite and hold, sound is done from the bad guy crying their eyes out. :evil: 

In all cross over activities, change is done. What do you want to train for and why? Then just train...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

PP dog trainers may train differently, I have no problem with that. I don't care. As far as APPDA goes I don't care where the dog bites as long as he bites. 

Now in real life, Again I don't care where the dog bites. If the bad guy has a weapon , the dog should bite and I should run like hell. (That's the safest thing for anyone to do) I would also totally expect my dog to be DEAD. Giving me time to get out of harms way was done by the dog and that is what it's all about. That's the reason PPD are trained, to save our lives.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mari there is something else to think about. Yes, those elbow bites hurt and would have the bad guy going down FAST! In Schutzhund your B & H is done in front of the decoy and the dog cannot touch the decoy. For PP or service work, you would NEVER ask your dog to sit in front of the bad guy. If a bark and hold is done, you do it 6-8 feet away for the dog's safety. We train for the bite and hold, sound is done from the bad guy crying their eyes out. :evil:
> 
> In all cross over activities, change is done. What do you want to train for and why? Then just train...


 
Thanks Howard for your post. I have learned with Schutzhund the bite work is much more disciplined. So, am I safe to assume that there are no front bicep or rear bicep bites where the decoy is running from the dog. If that is the case, then I guess in schutzhund the dog would not have the opportunity to get a elbow bite?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> If the bad guy has a weapon , the dog should bite and I should run like hell. (That's the safest thing for anyone to do) I would also totally expect my dog to be DEAD. Giving me time to get out of harms way was done by the dog and that is what it's all about. That's the reason PPD are trained, to save our lives.


I made a similar comment about PSD’s at a training class last month… you’d have thought I had three heads from the looks I got.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Mari Steward said:


> Thanks Howard for your post. I have learned with Schutzhund the bite work is much more disciplined. So, am I safe to assume that there are no front bicep or rear bicep bites where the decoy is running from the dog. If that is the case, then I guess in schutzhund the dog would not have the opportunity to get a elbow bite?


A Schutzhund dog is taught to bite dead center of the sleeve as presented to them. They have done this over and over so many times that the odds of the dog not doing this in trial is very very slim. If it does happen, its most likely the decoys fault.

Isnt that right, Art??


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> PP dog trainers may train differently, I have no problem with that. I don't care. As far as APPDA goes I don't care where the dog bites as long as he bites.
> 
> Now in real life, Again I don't care where the dog bites. If the bad guy has a weapon , the dog should bite and I should run like hell. (That's the safest thing for anyone to do) I would also totally expect my dog to be DEAD. Giving me time to get out of harms way was done by the dog and that is what it's all about. That's the reason PPD are trained, to save our lives.


 
You are so right Jerry, after that is their jobs.:mrgreen:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I made a similar comment about PSD’s at a training class last month… you’d have thought I had three heads from the looks I got.


Reality bites.

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mari Steward said:


> Thanks Howard for your post. I have learned with Schutzhund the bite work is much more disciplined. So, am I safe to assume that there are no front bicep or rear bicep bites where the decoy is running from the dog. If that is the case, then I guess in schutzhund the dog would not have the opportunity to get a elbow bite?


*If properly trained*, there shouldn't be any top of the sleeve bites. In the escape bite and the courage test, the bite is center sleeve, like Mike said. Some dogs may come into the blind and give you a cheap/illegal bite. Doesn't mean that it can't happen. We train for PP and not Schutzhund. So our dogs often get bad but good decoy bites. I had one that left the leg and got my foot, put a hole into some nice hunting boots. ](*,)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> ...you’d have thought I had three heads from the looks I got.


Matt a man of many hats!:mrgreen:


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Matt a man of many hats!:mrgreen:


That little bit of dry humot made my day!


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