# Introduction and Breed Qualities Discussion



## Carraig Stanwyck

Good Morning,

My name is Carraig and I am new to this SAR thing. My current dog, Drake, is a retired agility dog and I wanted to try something new. The altruistic nature and advanced training requirements for SAR, along with my passion for fitness and the outdoors, make SAR a good fit for me.

Drake was an accidental success, adopted as a pet from a pound at 11mo old, he proved to be an amazing dog. A dog that would have been nearly perfect for SAR had I started him in it when I adopted him. He is a heeler mutt that will fetch all day, but does so not for the love of fetching, but for his absolute loyalty, desire to please, and obsession to work. His reward is merely being allowed to work. Now that he's nearly 9 years old with bad hips (was hit by a car), he just doesn't have the stamina to turn into a SAR dog.

I want to find another amazing mutt, because I believe that different breeds bring different characteristics to the table. My problem is that I can't find a breed breakdown for SAR. In fact, until I started reading Jim's posts, I didn't even know airdales could do SAR.

Obviously each dog will be different, but my experience with dogs leads me to believe that different breeds will have trends.

There is a lot written about Labs, Goldens, GSDs, and Border Collies doing SAR work, but what about other breeds?

How do the bird dogs do? (GSPs, Vizlas, Weimaraner, etc)
How do the other herding dogs do? (Corgis, Kelpi, Heeler, etc)
What about the US breeds? (Texas Blue Lacy, Catahoula)
Rotts are supposed to have a great nose for human scent, however the size is a detriment, so would a Rott/BC be a promising mix (assuming it passed the eval)?

Which dogs are "generally" best for which types of SAR work?

I would love to see everybody contribute their experience with their breed of choice, and the ups and downs of each. I know I am new here, but having a sticky advising newbies like me of general trends would be very helpful. For instance, I learned recently that Catahoulas have been used successfully, but are naturally dog aggressive if not socialized from an early age. This is important when considering adopting an older juvenile dog.

Google and Wikipedia are great for general information about dog breeds, but rarely do they focus on the traits specific and necessary for good SAR dogs.

I have loved reading the posts here and look forward to participating in the future as I eventually find and train my own SAR dog.

Regards,
Carraig


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## Meg O'Donovan

At the top of my list for good qualities in a potential SAR candidate:
- no fear or aggression towards humans
-no fear or aggression towards other dogs
-physical confirmation supports durability and stamina in a huge variety of work environments and weather and for extended periods of time 
-tough feet
-obsessive hunt drive. Will not quit until it finds.
-natural retriever
-fast and independent
-confident to try new things, even if a little careful/curious when it first checks them out, e.g. water, boats, riding on quad, heavy machinery, confined spaces, flashing lights, weird situations...
-curious and explores the world by means of nose and mouth
-would play tug and/or ball games with owner and other people to the point of exhaustion if allowed
-loves to meet and smell people; when meeting people, dog wants to take in the scent of the person, every person.

I don't think the breed is as important as the dog: confident, smart, willing, able, and tenacious. Some breeds have more of that than others. 

Welcome to WDF and enjoy the learning curve. 
What kind of SAR interests you? Wilderness air scent? Disaster?


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## rick smith

Hi Carraig

don't wanna throw water on your fire, but i think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective (by starting a "what off breeds can do SAR ?" discussion)

if you are going to do SAR with a dog, super. find a SAR group and volunteer to do Anything with them. surround yourself with professionals. learn how they selected their dogs.

- talking about how one particular breed of dog became a SAR dog, or by hearing that xx% of SAR dogs are xx breed ?? how is that going to help you find and select a dog ?

there is a thread going on asking how to test for SAR potential. read it. there are lots of SAR sites that also go in to selection testing. read them. too. start learning how to see SAR potential in a dog, or get to a breeder who has bred dogs for SAR.
- getting a "SAR breed bias" up front is counter productive .... imo of course 

- you probably already have a few breeds you like. chances are if they are working breeds, some may have done SAR work.....so why not find a good breeder on your short list of breeds you like or are already familiar with ?

but reading about someone who writes about the Chi-dog in Japan who became SAR certified is just another dog story 

i know this is not the type of response you want to read, but just wanted to say it anyway in hopes you might be willing to modify your perspective and maybe get a good dog sooner

best of luck 
..... and be thankful you are still fit enuff to do SAR work


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## Meg O'Donovan

Carraig, I just realized I didn't "pick" a breed.

Why did you leave Malinois off your list of potentials? Is is it because Malinois are "high-maintenance" ?

That is my SAR dog's breed, and I have seen other very able Malinois working in SAR. The Malinois SAR dogs I have seen are willing, fast, smart and persistent workers, blessed with great noses.


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## rick smith

correction to my post ... 
the "current thread" is not about SAR selection ... but i'd still read it


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## Jim Delbridge

I've traded a few emails with Carraig prior to this, but felt this string was of benefit to discuss. 

I did join a SAR K9 group and basically got my flanker skills up to snuff and observed their dogs for six months before I ever started looking for a dog. That original group were all out of Schutzhund folk and only considered GSDs and Rottweilers as decent working stock. I did have a wolfdog at the time, but never considered him for SAR for what should be obvious reasons due to the mythology against such crosses.

I did lots of research into breeds and I chose the Airedale because it was the common working breed during WWI before the brits and americans discovered the GSD. I like dogs known for spunk, problem solving, tenacity, etc and the Airedale fit the bill. It took me nine litters of testing to find that first Airedale. It's taken me four dogs to learn a big lesson on dog selection. The three successful working Airedales I found all came from ranches where the Airedales were actively worked for either hunting coyotes or feral hogs. The Airedale that came from stellar pedigree and hunting titles knows the game, but has no work ethic. His breeder told me up front that she bred for pet quality.

I ticked off the conformation Airedale community long ago because I've always stated that I didn't care if my dogs would win a beauty contest, but I definitely cared if they could "hunt". I put "hunt" in quotes because it means something to those backwoods hunters (not those getting titles who basically train for artificial conditions and select dogs conducive to stim-collars). To the hunters that hunt to put food on their table, a dog that can "hunt" is tenacious about the scent work despite the conditions. The original Airedales were described as able to hunt cougar and bear. Not many bred today could or would do that. I took myself off most of the Airedale lists some time back because I realized that I was an HRD dog handler/trainer that likes HRD quality dogs and mine just happen to be Airedales versus an Airedale lover who trains HRD dogs. It's why I'm looking at working ranch crosses now for my next dog. Titles are nice, but they really don't mean spit as to whether a dog will "hunt" or not.

that should tick off about 70% of the dog community, but it's pretty much the truth. 

Jim Delbridge


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## Sarah Platts

Carraig Stanwyck said:


> Obviously each dog will be different, but my experience with dogs leads me to believe that different breeds will have trends.
> 
> There is a lot written about Labs, Goldens, GSDs, and Border Collies doing SAR work, but what about other breeds?
> 
> How do the bird dogs do? (GSPs, Vizlas, Weimaraner, etc)
> How do the other herding dogs do? (Corgis, Kelpi, Heeler, etc)
> What about the US breeds? (Texas Blue Lacy, Catahoula)
> Rotts are supposed to have a great nose for human scent, however the size is a detriment, so would a Rott/BC be a promising mix (assuming it passed the eval)?
> 
> Which dogs are "generally" best for which types of SAR work?
> 
> I would love to see everybody contribute their experience with their breed of choice, and the ups and downs of each. I know I am new here, but having a sticky advising newbies like me of general trends would be very helpful. For instance, I learned recently that Catahoulas have been used successfully, but are naturally dog aggressive if not socialized from an early age. This is important when considering adopting an older juvenile dog.


Every breed has their pros and cons. The 5 major breeds used are Labs, GSDs, Border Collies, Mals, and BHs. Some people choose a breed they know and are comfortable with. Some pick a breed that suits their area of the country more (Catahoulas for example are very heat tolerant) or the task. Labs are very easy to train while other breeds can be more stubborn. Some breeds have more health issues than others. What disciple of sar can also determine the breed used. If it requires a dog to work off-lead then you don't get a BH. Come in with an exotic breed and who ever trains the dogs may not know or understand how work with that breed. For example, I have German Shorthairs but the folks I first worked with really only knew BHs and Labs because that's what they had. They didn't know how to work with hunting breeds and so I got a lot of bad advice.

And just because I have shorthairs and I like the breed, they are not suitable for everyone. I understand that and recognize it. In fact, the GSP sar handlers started up their own yahoo group just to discuss concerns and training aspects particular to the breed or related ones like the Vizla.

You mentioned Rottis but there are several breeds that have declined because it's hard to find good ones. I spoke to the woman who runs the Nat'l Disaster Dog training site and she was lamenting the fact that it was hard to find good goldens and the few she did find couldn't compare of the ones of 25 years ago. They just had to many problems. So maybe this is what is driving the trends you see. The decline of the breed due to the emerging problems associated with the breed and since we still need dogs to do the work, a new one is picked.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Carraig, one thing is find a group first. See what they are working, what works well in their group what does not. 

Many breeds can do SAR but sometimes it is an easier run if you have the same breeds most of the folks on the team has just because the handlers know their quirks.

Give you an example. Myself and another woman on the team do cadaver. We both have WL GSDs. Pretty easy to get help from the LE who help us because they "know" high drive toy driven GSDs, Mals, and Dutchies. A third person has a rat terrier. We have *all* been at a loss helping her get through the terrierness of the little dog ..and it is a darned good hunter...but it has been taking a lot of 3rd party help and she will have probably got 2+ years into training before certifying the dog. Both of our shepherds took about 4-5 months for the first cert.


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## Carraig Stanwyck

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Welcome to WDF and enjoy the learning curve.
> What kind of SAR interests you? Wilderness air scent? Disaster?


Thanks Meg!

Your question is a good one. Our local team for years required every dog to be certified in HRD, trailing, and wilderness air scent. Though the team has been called to work disasters, such as the Joplin tornado, the majority of the work is HRD work supporting law enforcement, wilderness air scent, and trailing people (such as those with alzheimers who don't return home). In requiring the cross certification, they realized that they were washing a lot of dogs that may not excel in one area, but were great in another, and have only recently changed the rules to allow specialization.

Despite that change, the team still requires all new members to train their dog in each specialization, if only to find out which area the dog does best in for future specialization.

Regarding your question on Malinois, I meant to include them as a breed that there is already good information about related to search and rescue.



rick smith said:


> if you are going to do SAR with a dog, super. find a SAR group and volunteer to do Anything with them. surround yourself with professionals. learn how they selected their dogs.
> 
> - talking about how one particular breed of dog became a SAR dog, or by hearing that xx% of SAR dogs are xx breed ?? how is that going to help you find and select a dog ?


Hi Rick. I am already volunteering with a SAR group and do not plan to get a dog immediately. With that said, I am not new to dog training or working with dogs and I believe my extensive military background including numerous years deployed downrange makes the transition into an organization like this more fluid than if I was coming off the street unaccustomed to hard work, poor working conditions, or a higher than normal level of dedication.

I have spoken with Jim Delbridge at length (based on the thread you mention which I read in full) and he has been an extreme wealth of information (Thanks Jim!), and I am blessed with a very communicative team and training officer. I started going out to evaluate puppies and younger pound dogs to practice the evaluation process, based on advice from Jim and my training officer, and quickly realized that it will likely take a long time to find that perfect dog anyway. 

I agree with you about the bias, which is why I am completely open to a mutt from the pound, something that many who work SAR are biased against. However there are trends for what dogs tend to be good at what, and that is the information I wanted. For instance, in our group the GSDs and a lab have an affinity for trailing, and while the Border Collies can trail, they just don't like it and enjoy wilderness air scent and HRD better. 

My current dog is a blue heeler cross and is, at 9 years old, not as energetic or agile as he once was. He is almost calm enough now to make a decent indoor pet . Because of my familiarity with the cattle dogs (my last dog before Drake was a border collie cross), I tend to lean in that direction. With that said, I wouldn't want a heeler crossed with a husky because husky's are independent and not known for their trainability, and there is a chance that trait wins out over the heeler's. Yet a heeler crossed with a GSD is almost certainly, in most cases, a better candidate. At least that is my thought process. Like Jim said though, I tend to like the working dogs and have found they don't really exist that often outside of a working environment.



Sarah Platts said:


> Come in with an exotic breed and who ever trains the dogs may not know or understand how work with that breed. For example, I have German Shorthairs but the folks I first worked with really only knew BHs and Labs because that's what they had. They didn't know how to work with hunting breeds and so I got a lot of bad advice.


Hi Sarah,

That is great feedback. The president of our team is a lab guy through and through, and not having experience with labs personally I didn't know how much different they would be from other bird dogs like GSPs, Vizlas, etc. The training officer on our team works exclusively with herding breeds and they do amazing work, and because of her familiarity with them (and my own), I am leaning towards a herding breed so she'll have an easier time walking me through the steps since she knows them well already.



Jim Delbridge said:


> I've traded a few emails with Carraig prior to this, but felt this string was of benefit to discuss.


And again Jim, thank you for your willingness to share you experience. Your situation is what encouraged me to reach out about breeds. While Rick is right, that a bias can hinder the search for a good dog, the lack of knowledge can as well. I never would have thought before reading your posts that an airedale could make a decent SAR dog. Likewise, I saw a post on another forum today about how Corgis are not accepted as FEMA search dogs which seems counter intuitive since they are another intelligent (though a little small) herding breed. Supposedly there is at least one team who has a couple of exceptional corgis.

Anyway, thanks to all who responded. I enjoyed and benefited from the discussion and would love to see additional posts such as Sarah's (with her GSPs) and Jim's (with his Airedales) that educate the community on non-traditional SAR capable dogs.

Regards,
Carraig


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## Bob Scott

"Our local team for years required every dog to be certified in HRD, trailing, and wilderness air scent. Though the team has been called to work disasters, such as the Joplin tornado, the majority of the work is HRD work supporting law enforcement, wilderness air scent, and trailing people (such as those with alzheimers who don't return home). In requiring the cross certification, they realized that they were washing a lot of dogs that may not excel in one area, but were great in another, and have only recently changed the rules to allow specialization".

I was with a team that required cross training. We did live find, air scent, wilderness, HRD, boat work, article search. In looking back and hearing serious SAR people her in discussions I wouldn't do it again. 
My dog (GSD) was solid in training but, in reality, I wouldn't want to be responsible for a dog passing up a live victim because of the stronger smell of HRD.

The first wave of dogs in the 911 disaster were live find only. That was because of the possibility I mentioned.


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## Sarah Platts

Carraig Stanwyck said:


> quickly realized that it will likely take a long time to find that perfect dog anyway.


I think there is no such thing as a perfect dog, just shades of really good dogs. And every dog starts out as perfect but then may not be so you learn to work with what you have (or wash it and find a new one).



Carraig Stanwyck said:


> Likewise, I saw a post on another forum today about how Corgis are not accepted as FEMA search dogs which seems counter intuitive since they are another intelligent (though a little small) herding breed. Supposedly there is at least one team who has a couple of exceptional corgis.


Corgies, while small, are dumpy dogs. The length of their body coupled with short legs make them less viable candidates than other breeds. If you've ever seen or worked on a rubble pile you will understand the dog needs enough agility and ability to jump, manuever, step across obstacles to get safely across the site. I know of one gal that runs petite basset griffons but she does mostly HR work. A disciple that is well suited to that body structure. I worked with another in a trailing class I was teaching in Europe. A very nice trailing dog and again suited to the task. I would not want to work rubble with the breed or one with the same structure. Maybe this is breed bias but it goes back to matching the dog with the task required.


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## Holden Sawyer

I know a few people who have had good luck with pit bulls or mixes. They have a lot of good qualities like athleticism and intelligence and there are often many in the shelters. You'd have to deal with breed specific legislation, clubs that won't work with them, insurance and housing issues. The levels of dog aggression vary and shelters often put down even reactive dogs. A normal one is very people friendly. Of course now shelters are loaded with poorly bred offshoots of the breeds like XXL or bullies, but if you are going around testing anyway you could always keep an eye out for a prospect. Of course I am biased, Am Staffs and APBT are the only breeds for me. But you asked, and I know the numbers of pit bull types vs. cattle dog types that come through the shelters might just give you better odds when looking for that needle in a haystack. Best of luck on your search for a new partner - your heeler sounds like an awesome dog. I love them! We had an amazing ACD pup come through the shelter about a year ago. He would have been a candidate!


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## Meg O'Donovan

It would seem that the long backs of the corgis or the bassets (or dachshund) or any other long-backed breeds would set them up for physical issues in the long term, maybe sooner if they were doing a lot of hard physical work. My extended family has had 3 corgis; smart, tough little dogs, but their backs/joints did give them trouble eventually.


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## Sarah Platts

Holden Sawyer said:


> I know a few people who have had good luck with pit bulls or mixes.


My team has not have any luck with the breed or mixes thereof. Not saying there may not be that rough diamond out there but we never found one. We had a member that adored them and after 3 years and 7 failures, we told him enough was enough, no more. He quit rather than try something else other than a pittie. I only met one of the breed doing the work out of hundreds of other breeds and mixes. So on that basis alone, I caution folks against the breed. If I'm are going to spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars toward something I would rather do it with something that has the characteristics and breeding to make the cut.


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## Sarah Platts

Meg O'Donovan said:


> It would seem that the long backs of the corgis or the bassets (or dachshund) or any other long-backed breeds would set them up for physical issues in the long term, maybe sooner if they were doing a lot of hard physical work. My extended family has had 3 corgis; smart, tough little dogs, but their backs/joints did give them trouble eventually.


The other issue is that they have to be able to climb ladders or cross over on a horizontal ladder. Those short back legs just can't reach out the 12 inches to make it from rung to rung. They also have to go across stringer boards which are either 8 or 10 inches across. Their wide front build doesn't allow the short legs to angle in under their body to get their paws down the center of the board so that they tend to hang over or only can grab the edges - not the safest of methods.


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## Carraig Stanwyck

Holden Sawyer said:


> I know a few people who have had good luck with pit bulls or mixes. They have a lot of good qualities like athleticism and intelligence and there are often many in the shelters. You'd have to deal with breed specific legislation, clubs that won't work with them, insurance and housing issues. The levels of dog aggression vary and shelters often put down even reactive dogs. A normal one is very people friendly. Of course now shelters are loaded with poorly bred offshoots of the breeds like XXL or bullies, but if you are going around testing anyway you could always keep an eye out for a prospect. Of course I am biased, Am Staffs and APBT are the only breeds for me. But you asked, and I know the numbers of pit bull types vs. cattle dog types that come through the shelters might just give you better odds when looking for that needle in a haystack. Best of luck on your search for a new partner - your heeler sounds like an awesome dog. I love them! We had an amazing ACD pup come through the shelter about a year ago. He would have been a candidate!


Hi Holden!

I absolutely agree with you that APBTs are great dogs. In fact, if not for the dog I had before drake, an APBT / Border Collie cross, I would never have become interested in dog training. Rakib had too much energy and was the first dog I ever worked with seriously on advanced obedience and beginner agility stuff. Somewhere I have a video of him running up a vertical rock wall on a beach near Big Sur California and getting on top...it was just under 8ft from sand to the top of the truly vertical rock face. He was also the only dog I've had smart enough to unlock and open the sliding glass back door (and close it again before running off...), and smart enough to figure out on his own to climb a tree in order to defeat an underground electronic fence.

Our team members are not biased against APBTs, and our training officer has heard of a number of them that excel in SAR work, however they are not allowed on the team. This is for two reasons. First and most importantly, APBTs and APBT crosses are illegal in nearly every Kansas City suburb. Stupid but true. Second is that a lot of the work around here is Wilderness Air Scent for missing hikers and such. 

From what I have been told (realize I am new and none of it is personal experience), if a dog trained in wilderness air scent for live people finds the lost person but, instead of getting the great positive reaction it's expecting it gets a fearful reaction due to the stigma of the breed, it can ruin that dog for future work. (Also why other bully breeds and bite-type dogs like Dobs are discouraged)

Obviously I am not qualified to debate the merits of that argument, but it is the position of the team here. Just as some teams are fine with dogs that have had bite training but failed out of it, and some teams require that a dog has never had bite training.

Regards,
Carraig


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## Carraig Stanwyck

Sarah Platts said:


> My team has not have any luck with the breed or mixes thereof. Not saying there may not be that rough diamond out there but we never found one. We had a member that adored them and after 3 years and 7 failures, we told him enough was enough, no more. He quit rather than try something else other than a pittie. I only met one of the breed doing the work out of hundreds of other breeds and mixes. So on that basis alone, I caution folks against the breed. If I'm are going to spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars toward something I would rather do it with something that has the characteristics and breeding to make the cut.


Good to know from somebody with personal experience.

-C


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## Holden Sawyer

Yep Carraig that is why I mentioned the BSL. I didn't even look at your location but yes KS is one of those areas! I hope you find the pefect dog, so worth the time and effort.


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