# Singleton pups vs big litters



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

In one of the recent threads, it was mentioned that one pup litters are a bad situation, that they miss on stimulation, socialization, etc. That some breeders would choose to PTS the single pup rather than raise it alone.

So I remember, a while back, Lisa Maze posted her list of "wow" working dogs. One of them that I know of, was the only pup in the litter. Edoc du Ciel Rouge. I think she described him as "wild and angry" or something to that effect. Obviously, if he made her list, he didn't turn out so bad as a working dog... 

So this got me wondering, what happens when pups are alone vs with a bunch of siblings. What differences do you see? What is the effect on the pup's drive or temperament when a pup is raised by himself? Or in a pack of other puppies?

Does it make a noticeable difference when you look at the adult character of the dog? What would you see?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The ability to be social and understand the pack lineup is something a single pup may miss out on. I like 5-8 pup litters. You can see the broadbrushed parent backgrounds and it makes it a bit easier to find the "right one." I have also rejected pups based on it too.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Edoc is not wild and angry. He is actually quite a nice dog. I remember when he was just a dink he ran over to me and got some scrubs on his belly.

He is a good boy.


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## Heike Reimann (Jul 25, 2007)

Hi!

We had an only one pup litter 5 years ago out of my stud W' Tillmann Airport Hannover.

I would say, this single pup wasn't very social to other dogs and people.
I raised him 15 months and sold him to the SEK. Here he found his purpose!

That guy only was social with my family and pack- everyone else has been attackted. IPO or SCHH Sports wasn't possible.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is not much to affect a single pup, no littermates ect. THey are usually stronger than you would expect, as there is no one to tell them otherwise.

It is a good example of how environment will effect a dog.


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## Lisa Emerson (Mar 30, 2009)

In my breed, 3-5 pups is about average, and singletons are pretty rare. January of last year, a friend of mine gave me a female that she had never been successful getting bred. The female had a singleton pup for me, and then I had her spayed. The pup, a girl, was [super adorable,] social, and behaved. Although she didn't have any siblings to "maul", her mother and the other dogs did a good amount of teaching/correcting and playing with her. To my knowledge she turned out just fine; I'm told she gets along well with people and other dogs. I'll be doing a full evaluation of her, though, when she comes back for her first heat, which should be any time.

photos:
being taunted by a rope
dad, baby, & mom
happy baby

videos:
with her sire's dam
first time out of the nest
playing with a couple toys (As you can see, I bought her Companion Cubes... if you know what those are...)
an interesting experience The dogs were "enjoying" the helicopters circling over David Cook's concert at his high school, which is practically in my back yard. I wasn't expecting fireworks, so that was a nice touch for the dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We are not talking about hounds. LOL However, she didn't appear to be concerned by much of anything, including falling off the bed.


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## Lisa Emerson (Mar 30, 2009)

Hehe. Nope, she was pretty much a great little puppy.

Regarding hounds, though, that works out fine I guess, 'cause I wasn't talking about any hounds either. LOL. (Common modern misconception; they're actually terriers.) But hey, they are working dogs!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Edoc is not wild and angry. He is actually quite a nice dog. I remember when he was just a dink he ran over to me and got some scrubs on his belly.
> 
> He is a good boy.


Not knowing him personally  , I was only remembering what Lisa wrote about him - I finally found that post.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f13/just-out-interest-8459/index3.html#post83717
I looked up the dogs on her list, video and pics, out oif curiosity. That's why, now, I remembered Edoc was a single pup...
So does that mean he looks better than he would have turned out if he was fighting with a bunch of siblings?


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

And to add another question. Does all this mean that early separation of pups in the litter lead to better "working" qualities? A few years ago I remember reading on a mal breeder's website that they started kenneling pups separately at 4.5 weeks old and completely separated them by the time they were weaned, for this very reason. So they wouldn't be inhibited by their stronger siblings. Unfortunately I can't remember who it was, and can't find their site either, to see exactly what they said they did.

If this is true, how come I don't see more working-dog breeders doing it or talking about it? A few (I've read) keep pups together to 10-12 weeks old...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Breeders can be lazy. If the pups are sold, then they do not always do the right thing, just make it look like they do. "by appointment only"

Soda PoP was nearly killed by her littermate, and he had to be punched off of her. She is very untrusting of nearly everything. This is a good reason to seperate a litter. 

It is a good thing that Buko is one of the kindest and most gentle dogs I have ever owned. He has put up with all of her BS with only a couple of times giving her the what for. Both times he was bleeding. Both times she got beat by me as well.

Yes, I believe that Edoc is more than he would be if he had littermates. That is my opinion. But he is not generally wild and angry. I guess that is what I was trying to say. He is a good boy.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

I'd have to agree with you Jeff that often times a singleton can be a strong individual and it is a lesson on how environment affects behavior.

Over the last 20+ years, we've had 2 litters with a single pup. Both were males, and both were very strong. The difference between them was one pup went to a gal who was a "trainer" and she allowed the dog to sleep in bed with her, until he kicked her out of the bed once that he came into his own.

The other pup went to an experienced trainer in sport and the dog was definitely a Real dog but within boundaries. The owner originally did a lot of neutralization with the dog, as this dog showing a lot of attitude. The final outcome was a whole lot of dog but one that knew the rules.

Also, knew a well-known experienced coach/trainer in sport that seperates pups at around 4.5 weeks for a reason. Not bad a bad breeder, just part of behavior manipulation.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

We always seperate our litters at about 5 weeks. I was in Holland last year for two weeks and my kennel help had a huge fight with a litter of 6 week old Arko puppies, the result was one dead puppy and one that was very badly injured. Almost every time I leave a litter together until 6 weeks they fight terribly and usually badly injur each other . We start to really evaulate the way they act when they are doing things alone, without the "help" of the rest of the litter at a very early age, 3-4 weeks. I have a litter here now that is 3 weeks old today, they are eating ground raw food and soaked kibble now and by next week they will be totally weaned.They are already spending a lot of time away from each other now, and the mother is only brought in a few times a day to feed and clean them. They will be seperated at 5 weeks and the ones that are leaving will be leaving at 8 weeks old.


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## Brigita Brinac (Jun 29, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> And to add another question. Does all this mean that early separation of pups in the litter lead to better "working" qualities? A few years ago I remember reading on a mal breeder's website that they started kenneling pups separately at 4.5 weeks old and completely separated them by the time they were weaned, for this very reason. So they wouldn't be inhibited by their stronger siblings. Unfortunately I can't remember who it was, and can't find their site either, to see exactly what they said they did.
> 
> If this is true, how come I don't see more working-dog breeders doing it or talking about it? A few (I've read) keep pups together to 10-12 weeks old...


4.5 wks is way too early....they are only beginning to understand the body language and socialization of their own kind...I have found that weaning by 5+ wks is conducive to 'people' becoming their focus...however, they still need to interact daily w/their own kind at this age. If the breeder is present and on top of the pack hierarchy (I was peeling pups off each other every 5 minutes at 4 wks!)....there would be no intimidation or inhibition....I think it's an 'easy way out' for a breeder to separate the siblings and stick them in their own kennels at such an early age. Less work for him/her. As well one has to appreciate the fact that MANY times...a pup that seemed weak becomes the strongest one as he/she had to 'fight' to keep their rank--this makes a big difference in the final litter assessment and which program/home that puppy should go into.

IMO...7-8 wks is a good age to separate them in individual runs/quarters...but there are always exceptions to the rule...Personally, I've never waited until 10-12 wks to separate puppies...w/this breed the aggression and competition comes on strong and early. The earliest I've had to take away one or two 'bullies' from an individual litter is at 6 wks--and these I allowed to socialize daily with my Mali 'nanny' who is way too tolerant lol!....but the rest were left together to develop for another 1-2 wks within their own litter. Canine socialization is crucial.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Having learnt from Eberhard Trumler and he brought an American behavourist couple's methods to Europe, the name ihas escaped my memory, the pups are given over to the dog at 6 weeks 8in the wilds) which would actually indicate a handover then. (something like Scott and....-).

According to Kreipl, a German behavourist, the inter-action with other pups and dogs (for dogs of same sex) it isn't desirable and certainly, pups that are fixed on their handlers, work well and if always active, don't miss the sniff of the anal regions and whatever:roll: 

Do pups / dogs need other pups and dogs to make their lives satisfying?

Don, was it you that said you had to separate the litter because one putp would not have lived through it ? Isn't the solöution to be found in this pup and not the others, maybe.

As for JRT litters, I have recently seen scenes which leave my blood curdling but these dogs were not bred to do "Agility" where all the dogs are in close contact with one another (out of the ring, etc.)

I guess it is what the pup is intended for. I can drum into my pup and then dog, that the others are to be ignored - it's an obedience question.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have had to separate 6 and 7 week old pups before for dislocating each others shoulders and worse. In spite of that, I think raising dogs with dogs is critical. I had a singleton recently and I would put 5 mo old Dancing Girl in with hims for 4 to 5 hours a day and she loved playing with him. She would sit at the gate waiting to go see him. When dogs are not raised with dogs, they don't even know how to interact with them and it is critical when they hunt in packs or even to function as pets.

Dancing Girl and Lincoln in Lincolns yard


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I saw a Greyhound breeder on Swiss television who said she "culled" assuming ithis is eliminated (?) any "singletons".

Would this probably be the answer, whatever, the "career" for the pup?


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## Brigita Brinac (Jun 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> When dogs are not raised with dogs, they don't even know how to interact with them and it is critical when they hunt in packs or even to function as pets.



I completely agree...if we all lived on a deserted island...that would be one thing....but we don't.

And one could apply this to humans....there have been many studies (considered today to be unethical) involving children and what social deprivation (their own kind) causes longterm...


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