# #1 Dutch Shepherd in the World?



## Kevin Cyr

Blue Dutch Shepherds and Number one in the world? I couldn't find out any qualifications or competitions that would justify this? Anyone?

http://vanguardk9.com/blue-dutch-shepherd-males.php


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## Brian McQuain

Not in this world.


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## Howard Knauf

Their videos say it all.


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## Jill Lyden

What he could really use is someone to edit his spelling and grammer!!!
](*,)


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## Brian Anderson

oh the fun that can be had with those videos ,,, LOL hip hip radio DJ meets hood rat worlds greatest dog trainer/breeder... those videos are priceless


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## Christopher Jones

Uses the term "hard mouth" and keeps his dogs on buried car axels and on chains. Think hes into the wrong breed....


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## Brian Anderson

Christopher Jones said:


> Uses the term "hard mouth" and keeps his dogs on buried car axels and on chains. Think hes into the wrong breed....


the ones with his kid being the "decoy" are priceless ... the drunk hood rats talking about what great dawgs they are LMAO


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## Kevin Cyr

Glad I wasn't the only one thinking this was crazy...


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## Bob Scott

I never could find out what he's "best in the world" at. :-k :-k ;-)


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## rick smith

maybe "best" at marketing blue dogs over the saturated pit market ??

dogs are about as blue as the Master ](*,) ... if i said more about the vid i'd probably be accused of being a racist //lol//

for some reason i feel like i've seen links to this guy posted here before. didn't he buy a dog that was owned by a WDF member and do a similar promo vid with it ?


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## Ben Thompson

I like a dog that can find 100 dollar bills. You can never be too rich or too thin.


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## Marcel Winter

He bought Carlos van Guard the brother from Wibo van Leeuwen
such a waste, I wish this dog was stayed in Holland.

An other clown who,s marketing...........


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## Christopher Jones

Marcel Winter said:


> He bought Carlos van Guard the brother from Wibo van Leeuwen
> such a waste, I wish this dog was stayed in Holland.
> 
> An other clown who,s marketing...........


He will always be Carlos van Vos, and never Carlos van Guard in my mind.


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## rick smith

Tx....now i remember


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## Marcel Winter

Christopher Jones said:


> He will always be Carlos van Vos, and never Carlos van Guard in my mind.



Carlos van Vos ofcourse :idea:


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## Joby Becker

Jill Lyden said:


> What he could really use is someone to edit his spelling and grammer!!!
> ](*,)


*grammar*


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## Sarah Platts

I dislike when people change a dog's name to their kennel. Seems a bit dishonest or false advertising because it makes it appear that the dog is a product of their kennel and not the bought product of another's.


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## Ben Thompson

Joby Becker said:


> *grammar*


LOL!


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## Jill Lyden

OMG - now I'm embarrassed!!! LOL no excuse


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## Haz Othman

Wow...who would watch the vids and think its a good idea to buy from him. Training is so piss poor and the commentary...lol.


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## Derek Milliken

The biggest problem isn't just the loss of Carlos to Holland. 
It's that he will be breeding that dog. Either he's got crap females and he'll be breeding crap puppies, or he's got good females and he'll be breeding good puppies. Either way I'm betting VERY few of them end up in good, working homes, and most end up being destroyed. 
And so endeth another good breed of dog, at the hands of the unknowing and greedy. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> *grammar*




That were juss rood! :grin: :wink:


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## Brian Anderson

Derek Milliken said:


> The biggest problem isn't just the loss of Carlos to Holland.
> It's that he will be breeding that dog. Either he's got crap females and he'll be breeding crap puppies, or he's got good females and he'll be breeding good puppies. Either way I'm betting VERY few of them end up in good, working homes, and most end up being destroyed.
> And so endeth another good breed of dog, at the hands of the unknowing and greedy.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Thats all history brother ... Suttle got rid of that dog because he wasnt producing the kind of dogs he wanted ... I passed on him myself before this guy got him for the same reason. I have no clue how many breedings have been done with him... but I was told recently there were very few. that was heresay so I cant vouch for that. A lot of these dogs wind up in a bind because people get them and they wind up being to much.. a lot of those are so called "working dog homes" ... so go figure.


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## Marcel Winter

Better send Carlos back to Holland they would be very happy.
. I,ve seen in Holland good offspring from his brother Wibo first hand.

I,m sure Dick has the knowledge to breed with Carlos.


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## Kevin Cyr

Marcel Winter said:


> Better send Carlos back to Holland they would be very happy.
> . I,ve seen in Holland good offspring from his brother Wibo first hand.
> 
> I,m sure Dick has the knowledge to breed with Carlos.


 
what just breed it to his sister or mother again and again?


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## Marcel Winter

Kevin Cyr said:


> what just breed it to his sister or mother again and again?



Have you seen the bloodlines from Carlos it,s outcross that is one of the reason I like him

There are more breeders in Holland who have some knowledge and good quality females to use him i.m.o


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## Kevin Cyr

Marcel Winter said:


> Have you seen the bloodlines from Carlos it,s outcross that is one of the reason I like him
> 
> There are many breeders in Holland who have good quality females with this bloodlines.


Just because the dogs blood doesn't mean the dog itself is any good or should be bred? Thats like saying an entire litter is breed worthy. 

Just because a dog is titled doesn't mean it should be bred

Just because it was trained by Vos doesn't mean it should be bred

Just because someone from Holland says the dog is worthy doesn't mean everyone else does...OR is an idiot for not thinking like a dutchman

Carlos may have been a great dog or is a great dog.....or just a food bill isn't for me to decide, I just think sometimes the way people talk/type on here, they sound like they are mightier than now and if it comes from Holland, or was titled/trained in Holland it has to be good....That is just BS

And on another note, why don't we see so many Van Leewan dogs in the US in PD's or anywhere else.....Im just asking since you think so highly of the line....they must have thousands of dogs everywere as much breeding that has been done, but where are they? Oh yeah, I forgot all over Holland I am sure....


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## Marcel Winter

Kevin Cyr said:


> Just because the dogs blood doesn't mean the dog itself is any good or should be bred? Thats like saying an entire litter is breed worthy.
> 
> Just because a dog is titled doesn't mean it should be bred
> 
> Just because it was trained by Vos doesn't mean it should be bred
> 
> Just because someone from Holland says the dog is worthy doesn't mean everyone else does...OR is an idiot for not thinking like a dutchman
> 
> Carlos may have been a great dog or is a great dog.....or just a food bill isn't for me to decide, I just think sometimes the way people talk/type on here, they sound like they are mightier than now and if it comes from Holland, or was titled/trained in Holland it has to be good....That is just BS
> 
> And on another note, why don't we see so many Van Leewan dogs in the US in PD's or anywhere else.....Im just asking since you think so highly of the line....they must have thousands of dogs everywere as much breeding that has been done, but where are they? Oh yeah, I forgot all over Holland I am sure....


 Maybe you can ask van Leeuwen himself where are his dogs worldwide ............

If the breeders and dogs are so good in the USA why do they buy the best KNPV bloodlines for many many years again and again , they don,t know how to breed that is clear for me.

Breeding is not only buying good dogs males or females. and looks what gonna happen.........


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## Brian Anderson

Marcel Winter said:


> Maybe you can ask van Leeuwen himself where are his dogs worldwide ............
> 
> If the breeders and dogs are so good in the USA why do they buy the best KNPV bloodlines for many many years again and again , they don,t know how to breed that is clear for me.
> 
> Breeding is not only buying good dogs males or females. and looks what gonna happen.........


I wouldnt disagree ... nobody can screw a breed up better than the US ... hard to deny that one ..


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## Brian Anderson

Kevin Cyr said:


> Just because the dogs blood doesn't mean the dog itself is any good or should be bred? Thats like saying an entire litter is breed worthy.
> 
> Just because a dog is titled doesn't mean it should be bred
> 
> Just because it was trained by Vos doesn't mean it should be bred
> 
> Just because someone from Holland says the dog is worthy doesn't mean everyone else does...OR is an idiot for not thinking like a dutchman
> 
> Carlos may have been a great dog or is a great dog.....or just a food bill isn't for me to decide, I just think sometimes the way people talk/type on here, they sound like they are mightier than now and if it comes from Holland, or was titled/trained in Holland it has to be good....That is just BS
> 
> And on another note, why don't we see so many Van Leewan dogs in the US in PD's or anywhere else.....Im just asking since you think so highly of the line....they must have thousands of dogs everywere as much breeding that has been done, but where are they? Oh yeah, I forgot all over Holland I am sure....


It really comes down to what style or type dog you want and what its gonna be used for. VL dogs are a certain type of dog they prefer for the work. Dick has had good luck with them for a lotta years ... I have one out here a female. They dont do a lot of breeding so you wont see tons of them running around. They obviously work great for PSDs in Holland. But I agree that genetics alone and breeding lines do not a stud dog make. On the other hand matched up with a different type female one never knows the outcome.


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## Christopher Jones

Kevin Cyr said:


> Just because the dogs blood doesn't mean the dog itself is any good or should be bred? Thats like saying an entire litter is breed worthy.
> 
> Just because a dog is titled doesn't mean it should be bred
> 
> Just because it was trained by Vos doesn't mean it should be bred
> 
> Just because someone from Holland says the dog is worthy doesn't mean everyone else does...OR is an idiot for not thinking like a dutchman
> 
> Carlos may have been a great dog or is a great dog.....or just a food bill isn't for me to decide, I just think sometimes the way people talk/type on here, they sound like they are mightier than now and if it comes from Holland, or was titled/trained in Holland it has to be good....That is just BS
> 
> And on another note, why don't we see so many Van Leewan dogs in the US in PD's or anywhere else.....Im just asking since you think so highly of the line....they must have thousands of dogs everywere as much breeding that has been done, but where are they? Oh yeah, I forgot all over Holland I am sure....


Carlos poduced very well in Holland, and came from a litter of four pups were every single dog was super. Put to the right female he produced, but thats breeding all over.


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## Christopher Jones

Jill Lyden said:


> OMG - now I'm embarrassed!!! LOL no excuse


I guess the 'a' key and the 'e' key are kinda close to each other on a keyboard....kinda.


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## Michael Murphy

Brian Anderson said:


> It really comes down to what style or type dog you want and what its gonna be used for. *VL dogs are a certain type of dog* they prefer for the work. Dick has had good luck with them for a lotta years ... I have one out here a female. They dont do a lot of breeding so you wont see tons of them running around. They obviously work great for PSDs in Holland. But I agree that genetics alone and breeding lines do not a stud dog make. On the other hand matched up with a different type female one never knows the outcome.


what type are they? how would you describe them?


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## Sarah Platts

Michael Murphy said:


> what type are they?


Canis Lupus Familiaris as opposed to the Canis Lupis or Canis Latrans



Michael Murphy said:


> how would you describe them ?


Head, ears, tail, mouth full of teeth, 4-legged with medium density fur averaging 56-66cm at the shoulder, weight ranges from 25-34kg depending on sex. Color: various ranging from brindle to black to a range of browns


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## Gillian Schuler

Jill Lyden said:


> What he could really use is someone to edit his spelling and grammer!!!
> ](*,)


It's grammar not grammer

No offence


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## Howard Knauf

Gillian Schuler said:


> It's grammar not grammer
> 
> No offence


 You're going to feel silly after you read more.


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## Gillian Schuler

I very often feel silly but do enlighten me :lol:


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## Sarah Platts

Gillian Schuler said:


> No offence


What Bob is alluding to: Offense not offence But we all know what you meant.


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## Brian Anderson

go watch the videos ,,, its hilarious on the one hand and terribly sad on the other ,,, if you think his grammer is bad in writing ... LOL


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## Sarah Platts

now you got me doing it...... Howard, not Bob. Geesh...!


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## Gillian Schuler

Sarah Platts said:


> What Bob is alluding to: Offense not offence But we all know what you meant.


I definitely hope you do because offence is English - probably offense Am. english!!

He who laughs last... so who's feeling silly now?

No offence lol


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## Brian Anderson

Michael Murphy said:


> what type are they? how would you describe them?


Michael they are the type that works really well in a dept in Holland and they fare quite well in KNPV. One of my fav vids Spike RIP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTUwVWO8qO0


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## Howard Knauf

Gillian Schuler said:


> I very often feel silly but do enlighten me :lol:


 On page one someone already addressed the grammar issue. You may have missed it....that is all.


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## Kevin Cyr

Brian Anderson said:


> Michael they are the type that works really well in a dept in Holland and they fare quite well in KNPV. One of my fav vids Spike RIP
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTUwVWO8qO0


 
Brian, have you ever had one? Raised or older?


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## Brian Anderson

Kevin Cyr said:


> Brian, have you ever had one? Raised or older?


Kevin I have had 3 ... raised from pups,,, I have also worked with 1 (adult) that works for a dept in East Texas .. I want to say that one was actually bred by someone here in the states buy im not sure on that. I have worked with a number of dogs that are closely bred to them as well. what is they say on fourth of july ? when they hot they hot LOL


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## Kevin Cyr

Brian Anderson said:


> Kevin I have had 3 ... raised from pups,,, I have also worked with 1 (adult) that works for a dept in East Texas .. I want to say that one was actually bred by someone here in the states buy im not sure on that. I have worked with a number of dogs that are closely bred to them as well. what is they say on fourth of july ? when they hot they hot LOL


ok, I guess you got lucky, not the outcome I have had numerous times as well as many others I have discussed with and seen first hand through the years. No worries


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## Brian Anderson

Kevin Cyr said:


> ok, I guess you got lucky, not the outcome I have had numerous times as well as many others I have discussed with and seen first hand through the years. No worries


have some bad luck with that line? Unfortunately all the lines have some good and some not so good. Had you asked me if the ones I had were outstanding dogs I would say no. I haven't seen an outstanding dog in a while or at least what is outstanding to me.


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## Michael Murphy

Kevin Cyr said:


> ok, I guess you got lucky, not the outcome I have had numerous times as well as many others I have discussed with and seen first hand through the years. No worries


what was wrong with them, drive? nerves? aggression?


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## Michael Murphy

Brian Anderson said:


> have some bad luck with that line? Unfortunately all the lines have some good and some not so good. Had you asked me if the ones I had were outstanding dogs I would say no. I haven't seen an outstanding dog in a while or at least what is outstanding to me.


what was lacking in them, that made them not outstanding?


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## Kevin Cyr

Michael Murphy said:


> what was wrong with them, drive? nerves? aggression?


All I will say is I expected alot more and it may of been based on other things. In a range of 12 to 15 dogs of that line, they were very much the same. They all lacked hunt to do basic odor work but had decent retrieve. Not clear headed and were very reactive. Nervy for some Im sure. They would bite, but nothing special by any means. They also couldnt put two things together when training got tougher or added pieces. For example they understood bite decoy....they understood building search....they understood gunfire....they understood pressure.......BUT put two of these things together or add an envioremental piece "outside of drive" and crumbled.

This was various trainers with different styles as well as myself young and adult.

Just my experiences


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## Brian Anderson

Michael Murphy said:


> what was lacking in them, that made them not outstanding?


Hey Michael! Not any one thing I could point to as a bad weaknesses in these few I have worked with. I tend to be more drawn personally to the heavier mal influenced dogs. The adult male PSD was a spinner when I first met him. That drives me freaking nuts. They just dont have the over the top hunt drive I have seen in some other dogs. (not sure about ALL of them just these I have hands on with)...they are different in many respects to, say, my personal dog Rocco who is out of Arko Kikkert. They share similiar heritage but are totally different types of dogs. Theres a kennel I want to say in WV. that breeds heavily on their dogs. I cant remember the name. They are LE people. They have good luck with them and Im sure know way more about them than I do.


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## Ben Thompson

I thought the Dutch had their search dogs in a separate category. In other words the dogs that do the biting are never expected to search for anything and the dogs that do the searching are never expected to bite anyone. Could be wrong seeing as I've never been there.


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## Brian Anderson

Ben Thompson said:


> I thought the Dutch had their search dogs in a separate category. In other words the dogs that do the biting are never expected to search for anything and the dogs that do the searching are never expected to bite anyone. Could be wrong seeing as I've never been there.


KNPV has super hunt dogs,,, article search (and the Dutch KNOW how to train that too)

Every KNPV titled dog I have ever handled had no lacking in going to get it


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## Timothy Saunders

Brian Anderson said:


> Hey Michael! Not any one thing I could point to as a bad weaknesses in these few I have worked with. I tend to be more drawn personally to the heavier mal influenced dogs. The adult male PSD was a spinner when I first met him. That drives me freaking nuts. They just dont have the over the top hunt drive I have seen in some other dogs. (not sure about ALL of them just these I have hands on with)...they are different in many respects to, say, my personal dog Rocco who is out of Arko Kikkert. They share similiar heritage but are totally different types of dogs. Theres a kennel I want to say in WV. that breeds heavily on their dogs. I cant remember the name. They are LE people. They have good luck with them and Im sure know way more about them than I do.


Cole mountain kennel


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## Ben Thompson

Brian Anderson said:


> KNPV has super hunt dogs,,, article search (and the Dutch KNOW how to train that too)
> 
> Every KNPV titled dog I have ever handled had no lacking in going to get it


They are impressive to watch work in sport. Don't know if it is easier to work with green dogs or titled dogs. I've always looked at pups because I like my dogs trained to my exact specifications for personal protection.


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## Brian Anderson

Timothy Saunders said:


> Cole mountain kennel


ROGER that sir! Thanks for that bro


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## Brian Anderson

Ben Thompson said:


> They are impressive to watch work in sport. Don't know if it is easier to work with green dogs or titled dogs. I've always looked at pups because I like my dogs trained to my exact specifications for personal protection.


they are all fun! Just more challenge with the older trained dogs. But I love em all


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