# Weird Problem in Bitework.. Ideas??



## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

So I uploaded a series of pics of my young male Boerboel mastiff Neb going in for a tricep bite, hoping it might kinda show the issue I'm having with him.

Neb is very mellow & social when not "in gear".. quite a few people saw/pet him at the 2010 ARF Championship. He is multi-titled in various temperament & beginning working stuff (CGC, CSAU, ATTS, Olympic Dog, CAL1&2). Once "turned on", he's extremely serious & to make matters a little more challenging, he's extremely intelligent (not_ really_ typical for most male molossers IME ;-)). Basically, he tries to figure out how to get around equipment too.

In short, when sent on a back-bite he doesn't really want to bite on the back.. he tries to work his way to the front. In the pics you can see how he's headed to the tricep, then intentionally goes out to the side (even pushing off the decoy's side for leverage) & tries to go over/under the arm -the decoy has to practically elbow him in the face to get him to take it. Without leash-tension to lock him in, he still tries to work his way to the front. On front bites, when he's put in the armpit, he often will try to work his way over into the chest. He seems to really enjoy looking the decoy hard right in the eyes when on the bite, & isn't shitey-nerved. He bites full, hard, & deep -looking to find the decoy in the suit making the most of his shitey little short muzzle. He will "dig in" when pressured & look to hurt the decoy back.

We've had to deal with fixing people's dogs who try to pull around *behind* the decoy to escape pressure, but this is the 1st time I've had a dog that wants to be right up front all the time.

Has anyone dealt with this issue.. thoughts?? Experiences?? Thanks!


































































I threw these in just cuz they're part of the series, tho they have nothing to do with the problem. ;-)


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I would put dog on stationary tie out, tight line and target target target with him..also work on getting him comfortable on the actual Back of the suit, not just the back of the arm..give him a nice fold to hold on too,bring elbows back...

the pics are really hard to tell..it does look like dog is on loose line, and the decoy does appear to be pulling his arm forward and turning with the dog in them..

It also looks like he is just holding it up there and running...tight line tie out, have him create some prey, move the arm up and turn his body so that dog has to take the tricep, or if possible YOU put dog on the tricep.

target target target,make dog bite where you want him..build experience and confidence on that area..

all I can really say. that is what I would do if dogs was doing what you describe....the pics could be deceiving and don't know your dog...


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

You can use all sorts of things to get him to bite wear you want. A bungee line can help with him holding the grip. Have the decoy stretch the line when he gets on a back bite. If he adjusts to move around to the front, the bungee line should pull him backwards and off the bite. He'll learn to bite and just stay with that grip on the back or he will lose it and go flying. The Europeans have used plastic targeting covers for years for bite placement. I'm not sure where you can get them but I've made from plastic buckets and leather straps. I put the straps on the bicep/tricep area and if the dog bites there, they just slip off. After a few misses, they'll grab what is presented to them. 

I'd go with a bungee line first and do bites all over the suit in an effort to teach the dog to bite once and hold no matter where he is. But hell, he is a dog..... it might work, it might not.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Waw. nice dog. is that lady using a stopwatch or texting in the background. if stopwatch why so. if texting how rude. 

Joby - "target target target,make dog bite where you want him.." what specific training techniques are you referring to for this training problem.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Waw. nice dog. is that lady using a stopwatch or texting in the background. if stopwatch why so. if texting how rude.
> 
> Joby - "target target target,make dog bite where you want him.." what specific training techniques are you referring to for this training problem.


target the dog to the area you want him, keep him there..let him gain experience and confidence on that area...

I said what type of presentations I would try and how I would try to put him there...

dogs don't always bite where you want them too, most of the time there is targeting work done...

what are you asking exactly?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

what i am asking exactly is how to get say an arm bite in the middle n centre of a sleeve not towards either end eg hand or shoulder. not sure if that makes a differnce ie biting in the middle or is the quality of the bite what all anyone cares about?? maybe just a looks thing when dog hits sleeve right in the centre. my inexperience talking here.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> So I uploaded a series of pics of my young male Boerboel mastiff Neb going in for a tricep bite, hoping it might kinda show the issue I'm having with him.
> 
> Neb is very mellow & social when not "in gear".. quite a few people saw/pet him at the 2010 ARF Championship. He is multi-titled in various temperament & beginning working stuff (CGC, CSAU, ATTS, Olympic Dog, CAL1&2). Once "turned on", he's extremely serious & to make matters a little more challenging, he's extremely intelligent (not_ really_ typical for most male molossers IME ;-)). Basically, he tries to figure out how to get around equipment too.
> 
> ...


Tell your decoy to quit looking at him, He's turning his body half around and putting his elbow as the target. He turns right as the dog gets there, seems like. Walk away. Hold the arm up high. See if he'll come in a little more clearly that way. Does he move his grip once he's on the bite?

I agree with Joby partially, put the dog on a backtie and get him to come in where you want over and over and over. I don't agree with getting him in the back. Doesn't do any good for anything, especially since your dog is moving toward the chest on a frontal bite. Just get him high up on the tricep, keep back tension to set his grip and let him push the decoy around.

Keep messing with it and see what works after several repetitions of different methods


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Tell your decoy to quit looking at him, He's turning his body half around and putting his elbow as the target. He turns right as the dog gets there, seems like. Walk away. Hold the arm up high. See if he'll come in a little more clearly that way. Does he move his grip once he's on the bite?
> 
> I agree with Joby partially, put the dog on a backtie and get him to come in where you want over and over and over. I don't agree with getting him in the back. Doesn't do any good for anything, especially since your dog is moving toward the chest on a frontal bite. Just get him high up on the tricep, keep back tension to set his grip and let him push the decoy around.
> 
> Keep messing with it and see what works after several repetitions of different methods


now that you point it out I was not thinking of the movement issue, just the targeting... if he is moving with a mouthful of armpit/shoulder, I can see him moving on the back for sure, at this point in training...

good point..

If you don't like the back, that is fine too...if it is never gonna be a target...I was just saying if it was me would expose him to it, to give him some experience there...in case the arms are not exposed and the dog has to take the back sometime...might be an issue for some dogs..especially if they don't have a lot of leg work and come high. 

or if guy is hiding under something with only back exposed...

that is all I was saying...


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> now that you point it out I was not thinking of the movement issue, just the targeting... if he is moving with a mouthful of armpit/shoulder, I can see him moving on the back for sure, at this point in training...
> 
> good point..
> 
> ...


On the back bite, I am more concerned with what he said about the dog on the front. Moving toward the chest. If you encourage this on the back, I could see it happeneing more in the front. That's all.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Actually, yea, had the same problem with my dogo.....he would arc around to the front to get that bicep bite when we were doing short sends on the tricep....had to backtie him and just like JOby said....target,target,target....all you let your dog get is the tricep bite, where you have your helper agitate and then back into him with his upper part of his arm parallel to the ground and his forearm up higher so he can only get at the tricep...keep doing that for a few weeks to make them go for that area as a force of habit.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> On the back bite, I am more concerned with what he said about the dog on the front. Moving toward the chest. If you encourage this on the back, I could see it happeneing more in the front. That's all.


If you are saying the large area of the back may encourage the dog to move to the large chest area in the front, even if dog is not allowed to shift...this also makes sense.. 

( I was not saying to have dog move from tricep to back, which I am sure you knew...)

Tashi
Sounds like an interesting problem for sure...

Why do you think dog is shifting off the armpit to the chest? taking it real personal? trying to really hurt the guy you think? the not looking at the dog like was pointed out is also a good point. 

It is a little strange to have serious dog shift off a bunch of armpit meat to move to chest full of suit...is decoy allowing dog to get good bite on him, or is he slipping out of it? maybe have decoy really react well on the armpit when dog gets in there...or move him down to bicep a little for a better grip...just tossing out ideas..

Out of curiosity, does dog target well if sent frontally to the armpit/bicep or does he go center more. I have seen a lot of dogs target chest initially and then move to armpit/bicep to get some meat. 

Have not seen many shift the other way, unless they were real hectic and moving a lot.

Has there been a lot of targeting work, or has it kinda of been a free for all?

sounds like while getting tricep worked out, you might try to get the front worked out too...

is he TOO hot? maybe calm him down some...

video would be great to see....like I said interesting problem...I am sure you'll figure it out..


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Now keep in mind im KNPV but this is what I would do...

first of talk to the decoy...you want him on the left arm on the back mid tricep...so tell the decoy to stand straight facing away from the dog, you want the dog at a certain spot the present it to him clearly !..left arm up and bent at elbow...set the dog if need be, by SET i mean grab the collar and force the dog to the place you want him to go...keep this up a while and let the dog get used to this place. use a cover on his lower arm as soon as you stop setting the dog in his place...a hard cover made out of plastic so that when the dog bites and doesnt go to the desired area he wont get a grip and whill be forced to go to mid tricep. tell you decoy to stop being confrontational with the dog, this dog from what i gather from your story is taking up the decoy on the confrontation and confrontating him right back...thats not a bad thing but it will keep him going to where you dont want him to go...make clear to the dog where you want him to bite, i think that part is largely missing, maybe you are speeding things up a bit to much here and should take a step back to first learn the dog to target the correct area


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> is that lady using a stopwatch or texting in the background. if stopwatch why so. if texting how rude.


 Huh? Looks to me like she is videoing it using her cell phone. :-o


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

How was bite work started with this dog? was he taught to hit the arm pit and chest first? 

Most dogs have a spot they like to bite over any other. A spot they are most comfortable with. If the dog is allowed to get to that spot on their own (even after sending him on a different, less happy spot) They will try to get there a lot of the time if at all possible that is why the dog needs to be controlled in target work. Weak dogs will find a spot on the decoy that provides them the most comfort and least confrontation while making them feel as safe as they can be because they really don't want to be on the decoy in the first place.

I'm not saying this dog is weak. I have no idea why he's doing what he does without a video to give some sort of clue. Even a video assessment can be suspect. I do believe he's hitting a comfort spot. What is comfortable to him may not seem that way to us with our analytical minds. In our mind a frontal attack is very confrontational and would belie this dogs fighting spirit. In reality, it may just be that he prefers to be there.

Fixing the problem? Control where you want him to bite. Don't allow him to make the decision. Get a decoy that works well with the dog and follows instruction well. There are a number of ways to teach targeting. Some have been discussed here on this thread already and is good advice.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The dog was started on a sleeve. That is my guess, and this suit thing is fairly new. Biting on the suit three times does not count as work on a suit.

The dog is not being confrontational or any such BS as that, he is trying to get to the forearm and your decoy needs to go to formation and learn how to work a dog correctly. Not saying he sucks, but just because you bought a suit doesn't mean you are a decoy.

The fact we have to tell you what to do to fix this shows you that he is not a decoy. Please send him to learn how to work a dog, you will be very happy if you send him to work with Jimmy Vanhove, or bring Jimmy to work with him. Jimmy is going to run him retarded, so he may not want to actually be a decoy. LOL


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dog was started on a sleeve. That is my guess, and this suit thing is fairly new. Biting on the suit three times does not count as work on a suit.



I agree with both. Where is it posted the dogs' only been on the suit 3 times? I re-read the posts but didn't see it. If so, The newness of the suit can cause a problem.


----------



## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks everybody for your comments & ideas.. I'll see about getting some video, as I'm sure that'll make it a lot easier to see what's up. 
We definitely don't rush the training of our dogs.. most people would say we go "too slow", but we really try to operate at the dog's pace. I hate competing (horrible ring nerves), but LOVE the training so I'm never personally in any rush. I did get a couple new ideas, so I appreciate everybody's participation.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dog was started on a sleeve. That is my guess, and this suit thing is fairly new. Biting on the suit three times does not count as work on a suit.
> The dog is not being confrontational or any such BS as that, he is trying to get to the forearm and your decoy needs to go to formation and learn how to work a dog correctly. Not saying he sucks, but just because you bought a suit doesn't mean you are a decoy.
> The fact we have to tell you what to do to fix this shows you that he is not a decoy. Please send him to learn how to work a dog, you will be very happy if you send him to work with Jimmy Vanhove, or bring Jimmy to work with him. Jimmy is going to run him retarded, so he may not want to actually be a decoy. LOL


Brett has worked with Jimmy.. & Brett runs marathons, so I think he already runs himself retarded. 
I'd guess Brett has been learning suitwork for about 3 years now. Obviously newer, but we all have to start somewhere & IMO he's come quite a long way already. I consider myself lucky to have him, as he's always working to make a dog better & not one of the ego-driven knuckleheads. Brett is under Bill's tutelage & it'd take me forever to list all the various things _he_ has gone & done. Minimally, I would guess you'd respect his FR decoy cert under Serge Occard (President of the SCC) back in '99..? He was one of three people to pass (John Johnston got his Nat'l cert at the same time).

If I didn't like you as much as I do Jeff, I'd let ya (try to) give him a sleeve bite.















Thanks for playing: Neb wasn't started on a sleeve.. his very 1st bite was an armpit bite on a Michel trial suit at 6mo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI5tddZ1pTI

He was a very intense puppy, but didn't have much interest in biting toys/tugs/objects, so we waited til he was old enough to tease him up & get him frustrated/PO'd, then Bill gave him an inside bite. Once we got him started, we did put him on a sleeve to do some gripwork & as a quick reward, but he was back on the suit before he was 10mo.. & he's over 2.5yo now.
Not to sound like the typical My-Dog's-Such-A-Badass idiot (cuz that's not what's going on here), but he's always been fairly "man-oriented". We've worked long & hard at trying to get him to enjoy "winning" the equipment at least a little bit, as I'd hoped to do some Ringsport with him. We've kept him away from civil as much as possible -he's already "geared that way", so there's no reason to go poking at it IMO.

Poo-poo if you want, but I don't have any problem trying to seek out help when I'm running up against something we haven't had to deal with previously. I know there's folks on here that have been training since I was a zygote.. why belong to a Working Dog community if I'm not going to take advantage of it? _Other than_ to poke fun at my friends, watch the catfights, etc...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sounds typical..serious intro...serious attitude..

calm him down some..make it a game..cant hurt...just saying..


----------



## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> now that you point it out I was not thinking of the movement issue, just the targeting... if he is moving with a mouthful of armpit/shoulder, I can see him moving on the back for sure, at this point in training...
> good point..
> If you don't like the back, that is fine too...if it is never gonna be a target...I was just saying if it was me would expose him to it, to give him some experience there...in case the arms are not exposed and the dog has to take the back sometime...might be an issue for some dogs..especially if they don't have a lot of leg work and come high.
> or if guy is hiding under something with only back exposed...
> that is all I was saying...


Thanks Dave & Joby.. On a posted "fed" bite or if I put him on the bite, KNPV-style, he bites where he's "placed", as there's back-pressure to help keep him locked in.
But if there's no back-pressure either from a back-tie or me, he will usually start trying to chew down the tricep a bit & under the armpit to the front. It's like he's part spidermonkey! I don't let him continue his wanderings like that though. ](*,)

He has had a decent amount of legwork & will bite what he has to (legs, ass, side, etc), to catch somebody, but will then switch up almost always. He definitely prefers the upper body.
I've been pretty much only letting him bite the back for over a month now, FWIW.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> I've been pretty much only letting him bite the back for over a month now, FWIW.


video? lol


----------



## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> *Tashi Sounds like an interesting problem for sure...
> 
> Why do you think dog is shifting off the armpit to the chest? taking it real personal? trying to really hurt the guy you think? the not looking at the dog like was pointed out is also a good point. *
> 
> ...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well, good luck then. I am sure that if you have all those people to help you out then you will figure it out. 

I have no problem giving him a bite on the sleeve. Let me know if I am in the area, and I will do that for you. I am sure he will bite it just fine.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> He has had a decent amount of legwork & will bite what he has to (legs, ass, side, etc), to catch somebody, but will then switch up almost always. He definitely prefers the upper body.
> I've been pretty much only letting him bite the back for over a month now, FWIW.



As suspected, he has a preference. Either restrict the other areas, or use bite guards like Alice suggested.

Having him only bite the back with no other stimulator to keep him there is a problem. He gets satisfaction from the front bites so try and find out what you can do to make the back more appetizing as opposed to the front. It's going to take a skilled decoy.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Another idea is if youaren't using it already, we started off on a Can-Am tri level suit that has velcro on piece that has a front and back(bicep and tricep) bite bar....worked great to teach targeting to my dogo....
http://www.dhart.com/canam-k9/can-am.htm


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Another idea is if youaren't using it already, we started off on a Can-Am tri level suit that has velcro on piece that has a front and back(bicep and tricep) bite bar....worked great to teach targeting to my dogo....
> http://www.dhart.com/canam-k9/can-am.htm


I would not work Tashi's dogs in a Can-Am suit...not me....8-[


----------



## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Tell your decoy to quit looking at him, He's turning his body half around and putting his elbow as the target. He turns right as the dog gets there, seems like. Walk away. Hold the arm up high. See if he'll come in a little more clearly that way. Does he move his grip once he's on the bite?
> 
> I agree with Joby partially, put the dog on a backtie and get him to come in where you want over and over and over. I don't agree with getting him in the back. Doesn't do any good for anything, especially since your dog is moving toward the chest on a frontal bite. Just get him high up on the tricep, keep back tension to set his grip and let him push the decoy around.
> 
> Keep messing with it and see what works after several repetitions of different methods


 

Good call!! I see the same thing


----------

