# Black x Bicolor=? & Blue x Bicolor=?



## Debbie Skinner

A friend and I were discussing the possibility of cross-breeding to improve the Beauceron. This is completely hypothetical at this point. The breed needs improvement of temperament and health and this would be one way to get there...maybe..

I don't know color genetics well. If you breed a black malinois with a bicolor Beauceron what will you get???

If you breed a blue malinios x bicolor Beauceron = ??? 

I know sable x bicolor = a lot of sable. However, if blue is recessive to sable then would you get bicolors when breeding to a blue?

There are bicolor looking malinios (not sure if they are true bicolor or dogs with extended saddles). If they are true bicolor then that would be another option: Bicolor Malinois x Bicolor Beauceron.

Just curious.


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## Anna Kasho

I'll give it my best shot... I think that is correct... If anyone sees any glaring errors feel free to point them out, I am still figuring this stuff out too!

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html page on dog color genetics
http://malinut.com/ref/write/voodoo// mali color genetics page
http://www.jmadesign.com/Frankenhaus/colorgen01.shtml a GSD genetics breakdown. 


I thought this was a good explanation, but I don't know enough to see if there are any errors. Based on that information, I would guess...

homozygous recessive black malinois x bicolor Beauceron = bicolor pups carrying the recessive black
dominant homozygous black mal x bicolor Beauceron = black pups carrying recessive bicolor
dominant heterozygous black mal x bicolor Beauceron = 1/2 pups black carrying recessive bicolor and 1/2 pups sable carrying recessive bicolor (I am not sure, guessing)


homozygous blue(dilute)homozygous recessive black malinois x bicolor Beauceron = bicolor pups carrying the recessive black and recessive blue (dilute)
homozygous blue(dilute)homozygous recessive black mal x bicolor Beauceron = black pups carrying recessive bicolor and recessive blue(dilute)
homozygous blue(dilute)dominant heterozygous black mal x bicolor Beauceron = 1/2 pups black carrying recessive bicolor and recessive blue(dilute) 1/2 pups sable carrying recessive bicolor and recesive blue(dilute) (I am not sure, guessing malinois Sable is dominant to Bicolor?)




> I know sable x bicolor = a lot of sable. However, if blue is recessive to sable then would you get bicolors when breeding to a blue?


sable x homozygous blue(dilute)homozygous recessive black = visual sable, carrying recessive black and recessive dilute
sable x homozygous blue(dilute)homozygous recessive black = visual black, carrying recessive sable and recessive dilute
sable x homozygous blue(dilute)dominant heterozygous black = 1/2 pups black carrying recessive sable and recessive blue(dilute) 1/2 pups sable carrying recesive blue(dilute)
blue sable x bicolor = visual sable, carrying recessive bicolor and recessive dilute



> There are bicolor looking malinios (not sure if they are true bicolor or dogs with extended saddles). If they are true bicolor then that would be another option: Bicolor Malinois x Bicolor Beauceron.


Going by the GSD pics, my "bicolor" mali appears to be a black and tan, extended saddle? She does not look like the bicolor pics. I can't find any info about the non-standard color genetics in malinois... I know her coloring is recessive to sable, both parents were masked sable malinois

Another thing to consider is the masking gene in the mal, the one creating the black "points" - I have no idea what happens when that gene is present in a bicolor dog?


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## Karin Niessen

Everything you would want to know about dog coat colours:
Click here
I know the title is Dutch, but the site is bilingual, so in Dutch and English... You can see what happens when you mix colours

A totally black mal: aa BB CC DD or Dd EmEm kk mm SS tt
A totally blue mal: aa BB CC dd EmEm kk mm SS tt
A normal mal: ayay or aya BB CC DD or Dd EmEm kk mm SS tt
A normal-blue masked mal: ayay or aya BB CC dd EmEm kk mm SS tt
A Dutchie: ayay BB CC DD EmEm kbrkbr mm SS tt although not quite sure about the mask don't know if they have a msk or not... If they don't it's EE instead of EmEm

A black and tan Beauceron: atat BB CC DD EE kk mm SS tt
A blue merle Beauceron: atat BB CC DD EE kk Mm SS tt
And a stupid breeder double merle beauceron: atat BB CC DD EE kk MM SS tt

Have fun using the programme to make the combinations you want to check


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Are you looking to make sure the color is right ?? OR are you attempting to get a dog that has lower thresholds, and better at the work ??

I did not have great experiences with getting better thresholds that way. 

Not sure if that helps, as there just may not be that many out there with lower thresholds.

I would also be curious if it was a training problem. I noticed a pattern with a lot of KNPV dogs that came here and were all that, but when bred, the pups did not do much, but then again, the training was NOT the same.

If you look at all the things that you see the KNPV trainers are doing with frustration, and a LOT of stimulation, that might be the answer you are looking for. The dog is teased up and then is allowed to bite some slippery milk jug.

Maybe you have done this, I don't know.


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## Debbie Skinner

Regretfully the color has to be right (Bicolor for Beauceron)..but, it would be a project to improve temperament and drives. The gene pool in Beauceron was destroyed after WWII and with the practice of strict "confirming" for breeding dogs. 

I don't think it's a training problem as the good ones (when you get them) train up fine. 50 years ago, I'm told from the old-times and I see in the ring statistics the number of Beaucerons titled in ring was higher than it is today. Even 20 years ago, when I started in the breed, it was higher than today. I'm talking about France, not the USA as it's a rare breed here.

Possibly with the KNPV dogs, you have to look at what lines to combine together to get success and also do you know if they get a litter of 10 and cull down to just a few that work or what?

The teasing x milk jug thing...I don't think I want to work that hard. I want a dog that wants to work though.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Then talk to Don turnipseed about what he started out with, compared to what he has now.

I know you don't want to work that hard, but is there really a big demand for these dogs out there ?? Aren't they rather expensive for a HUGE maybe ???

For me, if you want to improve something, you don't add, you ruthlessly cull and tightly breed the ones that are doing the job. After a few years, you either have a working dog again, or the recessives were too much, and the line dies out.

One or two litters a year are not gonna get anyone anywhere.


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## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Then talk to Don turnipseed about what he started out with, compared to what he has now.
> 
> I know you don't want to work that hard, but is there really a big demand for these dogs out there ?? Aren't they rather expensive for a HUGE maybe ???
> 
> ****possibly. ](*,) It's an idea a few of us are tossing around. Malinois are definitely easier.
> 
> For me, if you want to improve something, you don't add, you ruthlessly cull and tightly breed the ones that are doing the job. After a few years, you either have a working dog again, or the recessives were too much, and the line dies out.
> 
> ****Doesn't seem to be a strong enough gene pool to support the tight line-breeding to fix the breed's problems. What works in the Malinois isn't working well with the Beauceron as Malinois have a large genetic base. I do line breed and have for about 20 years. The working breeders in France are commenting on the same problems that I've experienced first hand.
> 
> You can add to improve. Look at the Quarter Horse as they add Thoroughbred to certain lines to get speed and improve legs. The has been Malinois and GSD added to both breeds at different times in the breeds history. Another example is the Desert Bighorn sheep with it's small genetic pool, there has been several occassions that European Mouflon was added to widen the genetic base and improve hardiness and health. You must look outside if it can't be found inside sometimes.
> 
> One or two litters a year are not gonna get anyone anywhere.


**No, one must work with other small breeders. Agreed 1-2 litters and one breeder won't make a difference.


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## Debbie Skinner

Thanks Anna and Karin. All those letters and possibilities are swimming in my head now! ](*,) Sometimes it seems that one must do a "test" breeding to know what the chosen out-cross "blue", "bicolor" or "black" is. The puppies would tell the story to some extent.


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## Anna Kasho

I made two mistakes, not reading what I had typed. Fixed now. 



Anna Kasho said:


> homozygous recessive black malinois x bicolor Beauceron = bicolor pups carrying the recessive black
> dominant homozygous black mal x bicolor Beauceron = black pups carrying recessive bicolor
> dominant heterozygous black mal x bicolor Beauceron = 1/2 pups black carrying recessive bicolor and 1/2 pups sable carrying recessive bicolor (I am not sure, guessing)
> 
> homozygous blue(dilute)homozygous recessive black malinois x bicolor Beauceron = bicolor pups carrying the recessive black and recessive blue (dilute)
> homozygous blue(dilute)homozygous DOMINANT black mal x bicolor Beauceron = black pups carrying recessive bicolor and recessive blue(dilute)
> homozygous blue(dilute)dominant heterozygous black mal x bicolor Beauceron = 1/2 pups black carrying recessive bicolor and recessive blue(dilute) 1/2 pups sable carrying recessive bicolor and recesive blue(dilute) (I am not sure, guessing malinois Sable is dominant to Bicolor?)
> 
> sable x homozygous blue(dilute)homozygous recessive black = visual sable, carrying recessive black and recessive dilute
> sable x homozygous blue(dilute)homozygous DOMINANT black = visual black, carrying recessive sable and recessive dilute
> sable x homozygous blue(dilute)dominant heterozygous black = 1/2 pups black carrying recessive sable and recessive blue(dilute) 1/2 pups sable carrying recesive blue(dilute)
> blue sable x bicolor = visual sable, carrying recessive bicolor and recessive dilute


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## Christopher Smith

> If you breed a blue malinios x bicolor Beauceron = ???


 Bi color (tan points) color dogs with brown sable coats. All will carry the blue gene. 


> I know sable x bicolor = a lot of sable. However, if blue is recessive to sable then would you get bicolors when breeding to a blue?


 A sable to bi color breeding will produce 50% sable and 50% bi color. Assuming that both parents of this combo carry the blue gene you will get blue pups. Here is the break down:
If one parent carries the blue gene and one doesn’t you will get 25% of the pups carrying the blue gene. 
If one parent is a visual blue and one parent does not have the blue gene you will get 50% carrying the blue gene.
If you have one visual blue parent and on parent that carries the blue gene you will get 25% visual blue and 50% blue carriers.
If you have two visual blue parents all of the pups will be visual blue. 
Blue is not a recessive to sable. Blue is a modifier gene that makes black pigment blue. That’s why blue Malinois have blue only in the areas that would normally be black and the whole dog is not blue. 
I'm saying this assuming that Beauceron Bi color is the same as GSD. Double check this because it’s off of the top of my head; but I’m pretty sue I’m right.


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## Christopher Smith

> If you have one visual blue parent and on parent that carries the blue gene you will get 25% visual blue and 50% blue carriers.


Sorry this should have read ....If you have one visual blue parent and on parent that carries the blue gene you will get 75% visual blue and 25% blue carriers.


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## Debbie Skinner

Christopher Smith said:


> Sorry this should have read ....If you have one visual blue parent and on parent that carries the blue gene you will get 75% visual blue and 25% blue carriers.


So I guess blue would not be a good choice as the desired result is bicolor. You mean blue like a blue malinois, right which I guess is a diluted sable?


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## Christopher Smith

That's correct.


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## Anna Kasho

Christopher Smith said:


> If you have one visual blue parent and on parent that carries the blue gene you will get 75% visual blue and 25% blue carriers.


No, if you do the punnett square calculation, you should get an even 50/50 visual blues and carriers. If you breed two carriers you get 25% blue, 50% carriers, 25% non-carriers. It doesn't work like that in one, two, litters, but the bigger your number of pups from this combo, the closer you would get to the theoretical percentages...

Also, you would only get 50% bicolor 50% sable fom a sable x bicolor breeding, if your sable is het (heterozygous, split, carrying, whatever the usual dog terminology is) for bicolor too.

When I wrote sable carrying recessive blue/dilute, I meant only that it is not expressed visually, therefore the one dilute gene is recessive to the other normal-non-dilute gene copy at that locus. Not that it is recessive to sable. Guess that wasn't very clear. 

In any case, I agree that for the purposes of producing bicolor pups, introducing the dilute gene (blue) is not necessary. Better use a recessive black x bicolor, than a dilute recessive black or dilute dominant black. (aka visual blue)


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## Debbie Skinner

Anna Kasho said:


> No, if you do the punnett square calculation, you should get an even 50/50 visual blues and carriers. If you breed two carriers you get 25% blue, 50% carriers, 25% non-carriers. It doesn't work like that in one, two, litters, but the bigger your number of pups from this combo, the closer you would get to the theoretical percentages...
> 
> Also, you would only get 50% bicolor 50% sable fom a sable x bicolor breeding, if your sable is het (heterozygous, split, carrying, whatever the usual dog terminology is) for bicolor too.
> 
> When I wrote sable carrying recessive blue/dilute, I meant only that it is not expressed visually, therefore the one dilute gene is recessive to the other normal-non-dilute gene copy at that locus. Not that it is recessive to sable. Guess that wasn't very clear.
> 
> In any case, I agree that for the purposes of producing bicolor pups, introducing the dilute gene (blue) is not necessary. Better use a recessive black x bicolor, than a dilute recessive black or dilute dominant black. (aka visual blue)


I'm sure it was my error calling it a dilute...I just don't know a lot about color genetics. I believe Malinois would be the breed to introduce and was trying to figure out what color that a Malinois-type dog comes in would be the best choice (given its a awesome working dog with a pedigree to match). Ok, so a recessive black would basically be a black malinois that would produce black when bred, right? Or, am I totally thinking wrong again? Because if I understand right, I could go get a tough short-haired black malinois with a super strong pedigree breed her to the best male Beauceron and then hopefully get some bicolor pups that are worth a crap?? :-D


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## Konnie Hein

Newbie/ignorant question: How does that work with their registry then? Or does it not matter?


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## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> Newbie/ignorant question: How does that work with their registry then? Or does it not matter?


This is just a discussion. However, the breed club in France could get it's head out of the sand and sanction such a project. Also, there is "a title initial" where you can register a Beauceron as long as it looks the part in France. Ideally would be a sanctioned project with the breed club's blessing. Right now it's just a "what if" discussion.


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## Anna Kasho

Debbie Skinner said:


> I'm sure it was my error calling it a dilute...I just don't know a lot about color genetics. I believe Malinois would be the breed to introduce and was trying to figure out what color that a Malinois-type dog comes in would be the best choice (given its a awesome working dog with a pedigree to match). Ok, so a recessive black would basically be a black malinois that would produce black when bred, right? Or, am I totally thinking wrong again? Because if I understand right, I could go get a tough short-haired black malinois with a super strong pedigree breed her to the best male Beauceron and then hopefully get some bicolor pups that are worth a crap?? :-D


I am still learning the dog genetics, but I have more of a background with fruitflies, mice, rats, cockatiels, snakes, and chinchillas. Different animals, same concept. 

A recessive black malinois would be for sure guaranteed to be a recessive if it comes from regular-looking masked sable mal parents (who are both carrying a recessive black gene) The recessive black mal wouldn't produce black when bred to a regular malinois, if the regular malinois isn't carrying a recessive black gene as well. Bred to a bicolor, in first generation you would get all bicolor pups, who are all carrying the recessive black gene. No idea what they'd look like otherwise, or if they'd have those weird dewclaws.... 

If your goal is to then eliminate the recessive black gene altogether, you would do it by breeding back to a bicolor beauceron, producing second generation of pups, (which gives you 50% bicolors carrying the recessive black and 50% pure bicolors, theoretically), and then test breeding the 2nd generation to a recessive black and selecting out any dogs who produce any black pups, and all their pups. After this third, test generation, you would pretty much know who the pure bicolors are. (though theres always a chance that a recessive doesn't show up in one test breeding/ one litter, it takes big numbers to come close to the theoretical percentages. But chances are good that you will see some black pups from black carriers in that test. ) Then you would concentrate on selectin for work ability I would think. 

Theoretically speaking.

Realistically speaking, the main problems I see with this, is you would either way have a lot of dogs to raise and train to see if they are any good, and it creates a whole lotta dogs/pups that aren't to breed standard looks, and perhaps may not make the cut for work ability, so what to do with them? Cull/kill? Now there's a what if discussion...:???:


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## Jason Moore

Debbie Skinner said:


> This is just a discussion. However, the breed club in France could get it's head out of the sand and sanction such a project. Also, there is "a title initial" where you can register a Beauceron as long as it looks the part in France. Ideally would be a sanctioned project with the breed club's blessing. Right now it's just a "what if" discussion.


As with the AB's a relatively new breed or as this case seems to be a low number of this particular breed. Any ways, with the american bulldog as long as it looked the part that's how they started when they started out. If you go back to some of the original Johnson lines having started out with a bull mastiff english bulldog and pit bull as one of his main breed bitches. Also still if you can get a vet today to say it is an american bulldog then NKC will register it and start another line. Or this is what i was told when questioning an american bulldog pup with missing names on the pedigree. So this must be or seems to be the case with the bauceron if it looks like a bauceron walks like a bauceron and talks like a bauceron then it must be a bauceron right:-\"nope its half bauceron and half mal. lol Just like all the AB's out there with alot of pit mastiff what ever in them. But if it's to improve the breed hay get to it. This is why alot of people out there bost of there AB's having a full 6 line pedigree.


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## Tanya Beka

Why would you want to introduce another breed to improve a breed that is already established? That makes the offspring NOT the original breed...and if they are sold as Beaucerons, but are genitically part mal, isn't that a bit deceitful?

One doesn't improve a doberman by breeding it with a rotti and hoping that the dog will look dobie, that's just ridiculous because the dog issn't a dobie anymore, it's a mutt!

If you want to breed a mal and a beauceron, then do it and *call it* a mal crossed with a beauceron, *NOT* a pedigreed beauceron, for pete's sake. Unless the beauceron has mal in it's original breed makeup, whoever did this would be doing a huge disservice to the breed and being very deceitful as well. Sounds like something someone who needed to feel important would want to do just to say they did it. 

What kind of breeder asks this question anyways?


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## Bob Scott

Some yrs back there were some English Pointers bred into the Dalmation in order to try and eliminate certain liver problems common in the Dals. It was done with the AKC's blessing but I think the Dals had to have 5 generations of Dals in order to register them.
The Basenji was also bred to brindle Basenjis for African villages in order to get away from health problems in the Basenji. All that did was bring in other health problems they didn't expect. Any brindle Basenji goes back to the Afican dogs. The brindle color wasn't recognized before that. 

Tanya, most of our dogs were mutts till not much more 100 yrs ago. Breeds were developed either accidentally (dominant stud in a small village) or intentionally(selected for) by humans. ALL started out as mutts.
Direct inbreeding created geneticly similar dogs (breeds).


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## Christopher Smith

Tanya Beka said:


> What kind of breeder asks this question anyways?


A Malinois breeder!:-\"


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## Debbie Skinner

Tanya Beka said:


> Why would you want to introduce another breed to improve a breed that is already established? That makes the offspring NOT the original breed...and if they are sold as Beaucerons, but are genitically part mal, isn't that a bit deceitful?
> 
> One doesn't improve a doberman by breeding it with a rotti and hoping that the dog will look dobie, that's just ridiculous because the dog issn't a dobie anymore, it's a mutt!
> 
> If you want to breed a mal and a beauceron, then do it and *call it* a mal crossed with a beauceron, *NOT* a pedigreed beauceron, for pete's sake. Unless the beauceron has mal in it's original breed makeup, whoever did this would be doing a huge disservice to the breed and being very deceitful as well. Sounds like something someone who needed to feel important would want to do just to say they did it.
> 
> What kind of breeder asks this question anyways?


You really need to LEARN to read. READ the original threads and catch up. 

You LOVE the word Deceitful. What's up with that! You have some kind of past trauma?

This is the kind of breeder I am: A breeder that cares deeply for a breed and knows the serious problems this breed has in Europe as well in the USA. The breeder of the #1 Working Beauceron in North America and also the #1 AKC Beauceron and Westminster breeder in the USA, A breeder with 20 years of experience in the breed, a breeder that isn't afraid to state the problems and possible solutions for a breed...

BTW, who are you and what have you done? You don't seem to have much knowledge based information to contribute. You act like a 3 year old.


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## Debbie Skinner

Christopher Smith said:


> A Malinois breeder!:-\"



Ha!Ha! Too good!:-D


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## Debbie Skinner

Bob Scott said:


> Some yrs back there were some English Pointers bred into the Dalmation in order to try and eliminate certain liver problems common in the Dals. It was done with the AKC's blessing but I think the Dals had to have 5 generations of Dals in order to register them.
> The Basenji was also bred to brindle Basenjis for African villages in order to get away from health problems in the Basenji. All that did was bring in other health problems they didn't expect. Any brindle Basenji goes back to the Afican dogs. The brindle color wasn't recognized before that.
> 
> Tanya, most of our dogs were mutts till not much more 100 yrs ago. Breeds were developed either accidentally (dominant stud in a small village) or intentionally(selected for) by humans. ALL started out as mutts.
> Direct inbreeding created geneticly similar dogs (breeds).


My friend that has working Beaucerons also, was just talking about the Dalmatian project, but she said German Pointer (she probably has it wrong). She said they were able to create a healthy line in a few generations that looked like Dalmatians. Before that she mentioned that the breed was plagued with deafness and pra (eye dz). 

What about Helmet Rizer's GSD project? Isn't that using Malinios?


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## Debbie Skinner

Anna Kasho said:


> A recessive black malinois would be for sure guaranteed to be a recessive if it comes from regular-looking masked sable mal parents (who are both carrying a recessive black gene) The recessive black mal wouldn't produce black when bred to a regular malinois, if the regular malinois isn't carrying a recessive black gene as well. Bred to a bicolor, in first generation you would get all bicolor pups, who are all carrying the recessive black gene. No idea what they'd look like otherwise, or if they'd have those weird dewclaws....
> 
> Theoretically speaking.
> 
> Realistically speaking, the main problems I see with this, is you would either way have a lot of dogs to raise and train to see if they are any good, and it creates a whole lotta dogs/pups that aren't to breed standard looks, and perhaps may not make the cut for work ability, so what to do with them? Cull/kill? Now there's a what if discussion...:???:



Thanks! For the record I hate the dew-claws. They can get hung up. Also, in a hypathetical breeding project such as this, it adds another factor to the equation. Double-dews are an antiquated requirement and can be hazardous in real work situations.

Yes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ok, back to one of the original things I can see going wrong. Thresholds.

I have seen dogs that with enough stimulation to get through their stupid thresholds, have very high drive.

I have bred these dogs and the problem is that you are not gonna get very many with the lower threshold.

Then you go back to problems seen in experiments with working dog mixes, and that is you really never get past f2, without having to mix in more of what you started with.

The only way to make better B's is to breed many many litters and to inbreed tightly to only the best.

I am not sure why you would even try, as I don't see a huge surge in a call for this breed. Not real familiar with them, but the 1 or 2 that I liked seemed like a hell of a lot of dog. Sooooo that takes us back to who is gonna deal with them ??

Not trying to rain on your parade, and I like Mals for what they are, but they are pretty ****ing dumb dogs that recognize situation and patterns extrordinarily well.

Take them out of the pattern, and they are completely lost. 

Then, what part of the Mal do you think will "take" in these dogs ??

I think any discussion on ****ing color genetics in a working dog is about as dumb as it gets. If you are gonna go out on a limb and do this, then do it, and see if it will work first. Keep 1 or 2 and snap the rest.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Why would you want to introduce another breed to improve a breed that is already established? That makes the offspring NOT the original breed...and if they are sold as Beaucerons, but are genitically part mal, isn't that a bit deceitful?

One doesn't improve a doberman by breeding it with a rotti and hoping that the dog will look dobie, that's just ridiculous because the dog issn't a dobie anymore, it's a mutt!

If you want to breed a mal and a beauceron, then do it and call it a mal crossed with a beauceron, NOT a pedigreed beauceron, for pete's sake. Unless the beauceron has mal in it's original breed makeup, whoever did this would be doing a huge disservice to the breed and being very deceitful as well. Sounds like something someone who needed to feel important would want to do just to say they did it. 

What kind of breeder asks this question anyways?


If ANY of the working dog breeders need to pull their head out of their asses on the whole, it is the Dobermann breeders.

These dogs USED to be all that and then some, and the breed is sorely in need of a makeover.

I have no problem with attempting to improve a breed at all. I do not know enough about the Bauceron to even guess if it could survive heavy inbreeding, if there is enough genetic garbage in there, then the line could just end with a litter of genetic defects. THis is what happens when two genetic time bombs are bred together.

If they are healthy enough, then fine, this would be the way that I would suggest, and I would suggest that Dobermann folks look seriously into this as well. Although who would be brave enough, as they are as far as I know the biggest genetic time bomb out there in the working dogs.


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## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ok, back to one of the original things I can see going wrong. Thresholds.
> 
> I have seen dogs that with enough stimulation to get through their stupid thresholds, have very high drive.
> 
> I have bred these dogs and the problem is that you are not gonna get very many with the lower threshold.
> 
> Then you go back to problems seen in experiments with working dog mixes, and that is you really never get past f2, without having to mix in more of what you started with.
> 
> The only way to make better B's is to breed many many litters and to inbreed tightly to only the best.
> 
> I am not sure why you would even try, as I don't see a huge surge in a call for this breed. Not real familiar with them, but the 1 or 2 that I liked seemed like a hell of a lot of dog. Sooooo that takes us back to who is gonna deal with them ??
> 
> Not trying to rain on your parade, and I like Mals for what they are, but they are pretty ****ing dumb dogs that recognize situation and patterns extrordinarily well.
> 
> Take them out of the pattern, and they are completely lost.
> 
> Then, what part of the Mal do you think will "take" in these dogs ??
> 
> I think any discussion on ****ing color genetics in a working dog is about as dumb as it gets. If you are gonna go out on a limb and do this, then do it, and see if it will work first. Keep 1 or 2 and snap the rest.


The brain and health of the Malinois. Open up the gene pool. The breed is very inbred if one follows pedigrees back. The breed was nearly destroyed during WWII. At that point some breeder put Gordon Setters in..for me that was such a horrible choice.

Jeff, you know that there is GSD in Malinois, right? The malinois breed is about as pure as a performance Quarter Horse is. If you like Boscaille and many of the NVBK lines, then you like the mix that is malinois.

It's a hypothetical discussion unless the breed club will sanction a project for breed improvement. There is a problem with DCM (heart)as well in the Beauceron. They are trying to develop a dna marker and if it is found to be a large problem then that coupled with the character problems will put the Beauceron breed in serious jeopardy. I just heard that the boxer now has a dna marker for DCM. I think the dobie is close or possible has one now??

I personally always thought the malinios was the only way to improve working in health, but they are sable which is dominant. But, then thought about the "off" colors in the Malinois. I wouldn't want to do "it" w/o a lot of thought behind it as if you can't get the color and that color is required, why set out on a project to "snap necks" as you put it. That's the worse part of breeding and no one should take it lightly. Most people that have had to cull don't never speak lightly of it. :-s


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## Karin Niessen

Debbie Skinner said:


> I'm sure it was my error calling it a dilute...I just don't know a lot about color genetics. I believe Malinois would be the breed to introduce and was trying to figure out what color that a Malinois-type dog comes in would be the best choice (given its a awesome working dog with a pedigree to match). Ok, so a recessive black would basically be a black malinois that would produce black when bred, right? Or, am I totally thinking wrong again? Because if I understand right, I could go get a tough short-haired black malinois with a super strong pedigree breed her to the best male Beauceron and then hopefully get some bicolor pups that are worth a crap?? :-D


A recessive black Mal crossed with a Beauceron would give at-a pups (as that really is the only gene we're talking about here, the rest is the same for Mals and Beau's as far as I know).

Now the hard part is that it is easy to get a dominant gene out of the genepool, because you'll always see it if the dog has it. You won't however with a recessive gene. If you see it like that, you really would be wiser to throw in 'normal' sable Mals. You'd get exactly the same cross. All F1 will be Sable, but if you then breed the F1's The F2 will be 25% pure sable (AyAy), 50% sable/tanpoint (AyAt), 25% pure tanpoint AtAt).

The great thing about the A locus is that it sometimes is possible to distinguish between a AyAy (pure sable) and an AyAt (sable/tainpoint). You can sometimes see the tanpoint 'shimmering through'. At least that's what I've understood (I can ask someone I know for pics of the difference if you want). So you'll just throw out all the sables, 'cause you know you don't want them, if you recognise them, keep the AyAt's if you need more breeding material (And keep throwing out the pure sables), and you have a group of which you're sure they are tanpoint...

That really is the big plus of using sable mals. But (and that's a big but) you must be sure that there isn't recessive black in the mals-lines... Or this equation won't add up, and you'll get the recessive black anyways, which is hard(er) to get out of the lines, as it isn't always visible...

edit: Ok I just checked it out and I was wrong, AyAt is the only combination at the A locus you can't recognise, lol... So you'll just keep the 25% tanpoint offspring of the F1 cross and immediately have the right colour back lol...


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## Anna Kasho

Karin Niessen said:


> A recessive black Mal crossed with a Beauceron would give at-a pups (as that really is the only gene we're talking about here, the rest is the same for Mals and Beau's as far as I know).
> 
> Now the hard part is that it is easy to get a dominant gene out of the genepool, because you'll always see it if the dog has it. You won't however with a recessive gene. If you see it like that, you really would be wiser to throw in 'normal' sable Mals. You'd get exactly the same cross. All F1 will be Sable, but if you then breed the F1's The F2 will be 25% pure sable (AyAy), 50% sable/tanpoint (AyAt), 25% pure tanpoint AtAt).
> 
> The great thing about the A locus is that it sometimes is possible to distinguish between a AyAy (pure sable) and an AyAt (sable/tainpoint). You can sometimes see the tanpoint 'shimmering through'. At least that's what I've understood (I can ask someone I know for pics of the difference if you want). So you'll just throw out all the sables, 'cause you know you don't want them, if you recognise them, keep the AyAt's if you need more breeding material (And keep throwing out the pure sables), and you have a group of which you're sure they are tanpoint...
> 
> That really is the big plus of using sable mals. But (and that's a big but) you must be sure that there isn't recessive black in the mals-lines... Or this equation won't add up, and you'll get the recessive black anyways, which is hard(er) to get out of the lines, as it isn't always visible...
> 
> edit: Ok I just checked it out and I was wrong, AyAt is the only combination at the A locus you can't recognise, lol... So you'll just keep the 25% tanpoint offspring of the F1 cross and immediately have the right colour back lol...


Another interesting link about Belgians genetics.
http://www.belgiansworld.com/belgian-shepherds-info-coat-genetics.htm

And now I have some questions...

Are there AwAy mals? What about AyAs? Mine appears to be a "extended saddle" black and tan mal rather than bicolor. I didn't see the "saddle" option on that website calculator you posted, but I have seen it written about the GSD genetics. 

Also a more specific question about Beauceron cross, what would a AtAtEmE or AtAtEmEm dog look like? Since mals have the mask genes and beauceron do not. Are there non-masked mals?

Would you, or anyone, make a guess what these pups are, phenotypically? I'm sorry I don't have any better pics. My black and tan mali came from this litter... Are the two darker sable pups that color due to carrying something recessive, or normal variation of the expressed Ay gene? Or is it possible they are Aw, and how could someone tell that apart from Ay? I'm a bit lost...8-[











The only problem with a dominant gene is you do not know what recessives maybe there, especially when there are probably xMals somewhere back in the pedigree... As evidenced by this litter from two sable mals... I agree the dominant gene would be a lot easier to remove from the genepool, since you always see when the dog has it.


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## Debbie Skinner

Karin Niessen said:


> A recessive black Mal crossed with a Beauceron would give at-a pups (as that really is the only gene we're talking about here, the rest is the same for Mals and Beau's as far as I know).
> 
> Now the hard part is that it is easy to get a dominant gene out of the genepool, because you'll always see it if the dog has it. You won't however with a recessive gene. If you see it like that, you really would be wiser to throw in 'normal' sable Mals. You'd get exactly the same cross. All F1 will be Sable, but if you then breed the F1's The F2 will be 25% pure sable (AyAy), 50% sable/tanpoint (AyAt), 25% pure tanpoint AtAt).
> 
> The great thing about the A locus is that it sometimes is possible to distinguish between a AyAy (pure sable) and an AyAt (sable/tainpoint). You can sometimes see the tanpoint 'shimmering through'. At least that's what I've understood (I can ask someone I know for pics of the difference if you want). So you'll just throw out all the sables, 'cause you know you don't want them, if you recognise them, keep the AyAt's if you need more breeding material (And keep throwing out the pure sables), and you have a group of which you're sure they are tanpoint...
> 
> That really is the big plus of using sable mals. But (and that's a big but) you must be sure that there isn't recessive black in the mals-lines... Or this equation won't add up, and you'll get the recessive black anyways, which is hard(er) to get out of the lines, as it isn't always visible...
> 
> edit: Ok I just checked it out and I was wrong, AyAt is the only combination at the A locus you can't recognise, lol... So you'll just keep the 25% tanpoint offspring of the F1 cross and immediately have the right colour back lol...


Actually that is great news as there are many more "correct" sable malinois to choose from for a project than having to narrow it down to the rarer colors. Great. Thanks! So Mal x Beauce = Sables. I would for discussion sake keep the best females from this as I think the strength is in the maternal line. Then the best would be bred to a top Beauceron again and then I select the best bi-colors and go from there. 
...Hypothetically that is.


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## Karin Niessen

Anna Kasho said:


> Another interesting link about Belgians genetics.
> http://www.belgiansworld.com/belgian-shepherds-info-coat-genetics.htm
> 
> And now I have some questions...
> 
> Are there AwAy mals? What about AyAs? Mine appears to be a "extended saddle" black and tan mal rather than bicolor. I didn't see the "saddle" option on that website calculator you posted, but I have seen it written about the GSD genetics.
> 
> Also a more specific question about Beauceron cross, what would a AtAtEmE or AtAtEmEm dog look like? Since mals have the mask genes and beauceron do not. Are there non-masked mals?
> 
> Would you, or anyone, make a guess what these pups are, phenotypically? I'm sorry I don't have any better pics. My black and tan mali came from this litter... Are the two darker sable pups that color due to carrying something recessive, or normal variation of the expressed Ay gene? Or is it possible they are Aw, and how could someone tell that apart from Ay? I'm a bit lost...8-[
> 
> The only problem with a dominant gene is you do not know what recessives maybe there, especially when there are probably xMals somewhere back in the pedigree... As evidenced by this litter from two sable mals... I agree the dominant gene would be a lot easier to remove from the genepool, since you always see when the dog has it.


As I have understood it (from a genetics specialist), saddle is a tanpoint modifier (like harlequin in the Great Danes is a merle modifier). I'm not sure about Aw, don't know enough about mals for that...
The darker mals are probably Aya. I was correct in that you could see the different A locus things together, only AyAt is not visible. The chance of it being Aya is even bigger because of the black mals also in the litter...

So the light sables are (probably) AyAy, the darker Aya and the black ones aa. That's something only the A locus does...

I will check about the masks, don't really know about that. But will a mask be visible with a Beauceron? Isn't it black there anyways?


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## Karin Niessen

Debbie Skinner said:


> Actually that is great news as there are many more "correct" sable malinois to choose from for a project than having to narrow it down to the rarer colors. Great. Thanks! So Mal x Beauce = Sables. I would for discussion sake keep the best females from this as I think the strength is in the maternal line. Then the best would be bred to a top Beauceron again and then I select the best bi-colors and go from there.
> ...Hypothetically that is.


Yes,

You would first do a Beauce x sable Mal (though you would have to find one without dilute or recessive black in the lines and still there is a possibility of being unlucky there because of the recessive aspect of it).

Your F1 would then be all AyAt's

So you would havve to do an F2 with either those, or make a cross back to the Beauce.

F2 would make 25% AyAy, 50% AyAt, 25% AtAt, and a strong Mal influence (50% Mal, 50% Beauce)
Crossback would be 50% AyAt, 50% AtAt, (and (about) 25% Mal, 75% Beauce blood)


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## Debbie Skinner

I will check about the masks, don't really know about that. But will a mask be visible with a Beauceron? Isn't it black there anyways?[/quote]

Yes see photos


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## Karin Niessen

Debbie Skinner said:


> I will check about the masks, don't really know about that. But will a mask be visible with a Beauceron? Isn't it black there anyways?


Yes see photos[/quote]
Stupid of me, lol. Mask is dominant like Sable, as far as I know. So you could easily filter the masks out, same as sable, if I'm correct. But I'll checik this for you...


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## Anna Kasho

Karin Niessen said:


> The darker mals are probably Aya. I was correct in that you could see the different A locus things together, only AyAt is not visible. The chance of it being Aya is even bigger because of the black mals also in the litter...
> 
> So the light sables are (probably) AyAy, the darker Aya and the black ones aa. That's something only the A locus does...


They are not black, they are black and tan, it is hard to see the tan, sorry... Mine, at a year old, looks like a "blanket back" GSD. So that would be tanpoint with or wthout saddle modifier? And then AyAy, AyAt, and AtAt... Right? 

I have no idea where those other pups went or what their genetics really are, so this is just guessing...


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## Jason Caldwell

Debbie,

Nice post.

You pose an interesting question about coloring but an outcross between breeds, say a beauceron and a malinois, would make me curious about the shape and formation of the haunches. Would it look like a malinois with a beauceron's haunches? Either way, the beauceron would now be a much faster dog on a send!

I'd be interested to read a thread you might start to help better educate other forum users on the disposition, bite, speed, and aggression of beaucerons. There are many people on here who might begin to give beaucerons the same level of interest as GSDs and malis.


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## Karin Niessen

Anna Kasho said:


> They are not black, they are black and tan, it is hard to see the tan, sorry... Mine, at a year old, looks like a "blanket back" GSD. So that would be tanpoint with or wthout saddle modifier? And then AyAy, AyAt, and AtAt... Right?
> 
> I have no idea where those other pups went or what their genetics really are, so this is just guessing...


The 'blacks' could be B&T or saddle (which I have checked now, and is indeed tanpoint with modifier). It's hard to make the difference at that age (just to show, two pics of my dog, as puppy, and now).
As a puppy








now:










My source says there isn't tanpoint in Mals, so the only thing I could think about that litter is that they are no pedigree Mals but a (probably German Shephard) mix (maybe the German being far far away)?


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## Karin Niessen

Anna Kasho said:


> They are not black, they are black and tan, it is hard to see the tan, sorry... Mine, at a year old, looks like a "blanket back" GSD. So that would be tanpoint with or wthout saddle modifier? And then AyAy, AyAt, and AtAt... Right?
> 
> I have no idea where those other pups went or what their genetics really are, so this is just guessing...


I've asked the person I learned everything from (the Marjoleine named on the site I gave somewhere on the first page) and sent her the pic. Let's see what she says...


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## Anna Kasho

I don't want to sidetrack the thread too much, so I will pm you


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## Christopher Smith

Anna Kasho said:


> Another interesting link about Belgians genetics.
> http://www.belgiansworld.com/belgian-shepherds-info-coat-genetics.htm
> 
> And now I have some questions...
> 
> Are there AwAy mals? What about AyAs? Mine appears to be a "extended saddle" black and tan mal rather than bicolor. I didn't see the "saddle" option on that website calculator you posted, but I have seen it written about the GSD genetics.
> 
> Also a more specific question about Beauceron cross, what would a AtAtEmE or AtAtEmEm dog look like? Since mals have the mask genes and beauceron do not. Are there non-masked mals?
> 
> Would you, or anyone, make a guess what these pups are, phenotypically? I'm sorry I don't have any better pics. My black and tan mali came from this litter... Are the two darker sable pups that color due to carrying something recessive, or normal variation of the expressed Ay gene? Or is it possible they are Aw, and how could someone tell that apart from Ay? I'm a bit lost...8-[
> 
> 
> The only problem with a dominant gene is you do not know what recessives maybe there, especially when there are probably xMals somewhere back in the pedigree... As evidenced by this litter from two sable mals... I agree the dominant gene would be a lot easier to remove from the genepool, since you always see when the dog has it.


I think your confusion may be caused because you are only thinking of one gene that causes black and tan. In a lot of GSD literature they write about two different causes of black and tan. On is the bi-color gene and the other is an extreme form of the saddle back gene. 

There is also the theory that many mals carry an unexpressed or partly expressed bi-color gene. This means that the dogs have the gene but another gene is covering it up. Just like the white in GSDs is a color that covers up the dogs "real" color(sable, bi-color, saddle, etc). You can even see a slight bi-color pattern on a lot of Mals. Lo's of dogs in your dog's family show bi-color.


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## Anna Kasho

Christopher Smith said:


> I think your confusion may be caused because you are only thinking of one gene that causes black and tan. In a lot of GSD literature they write about two different causes of black and tan. On is the bi-color gene and the other is an extreme form of the saddle back gene.
> 
> There is also the theory that many mals carry an unexpressed or partly expressed bi-color gene. This means that the dogs have the gene but another gene is covering it up. Just like the white in GSDs is a color that covers up the dogs "real" color(sable, bi-color, saddle, etc). You can even see a slight bi-color pattern on a lot of Mals. Lo's of dogs in your dog's family show bi-color.


Thanks  

Part of my confusion was the markings with mask, part was seeing pics of very dark bicolors with the only tan markings on paws and face.

So according to the experts, what I have is a tanpoint, aka bicolor dog, with mask. No saddle genes. It is probably due to GSD somewhere back in the lines...

Hey Debbie, a Beauceron with a malinois mask gene would have a black face, like this


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## Karin Niessen

Christopher Smith said:


> I think your confusion may be caused because you are only thinking of one gene that causes black and tan. In a lot of GSD literature they write about two different causes of black and tan. On is the bi-color gene and the other is an extreme form of the saddle back gene.
> 
> There is also the theory that many mals carry an unexpressed or partly expressed bi-color gene. This means that the dogs have the gene but another gene is covering it up. Just like the white in GSDs is a color that covers up the dogs "real" color(sable, bi-color, saddle, etc). You can even see a slight bi-color pattern on a lot of Mals. Lo's of dogs in your dog's family show bi-color.


With sable you can also see black. Sable is in the beginning reddish (from yellow to a dark tan/brown colour) with black hairtips. Most of the black tips will disappear with time (so the best time to see whether a dog is a sable or a yellow/choc is in the litter, when newborn, very clearly to be seen in the pic Anna posted last page), but in some dogs the black will stay visible... All of those shades have the same genetics: Aya? (as sable is dominant). A very dark sable could be Aya (the recessive black making the sable darker than it would be on it's own) but it will remain a sable. And to make it even harde: A dark sable could be just that, a dark sable :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott

Is the merle/harliquein color a fault in the breed? Would this color have to be a consideration in the breed expierment?


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## Karin Niessen

Bob Scott said:


> Is the merle/harliquein color a fault in the breed? Would this color have to be a consideration in the breed expierment?


You shouldn't use the merle (harlequin according to the stupid Frenchmen that won't call the colour by it's right name lol) in either the F1 cross, or the F2 as merle can be hard to see on a sable once it's grown up (as the merle is only visible with choc and with black, so when the black tips 'disappear' or at least become less visible in the sable dog, you won't see the merle either) and you don't want double merles of course, because of the problems that can cause. Merle is dominant so just use a normal B&T Beauce with the sable and there won't be a problem.


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## Debbie Skinner

Bob Scott said:


> Is the merle/harliquein color a fault in the breed? Would this color have to be a consideration in the breed expierment?


Harlequin/Merle is a recognized color. However, I wasn't considering this color as it's a "rare" color of the Beauceron. I've never met one that is a good working dog. Would using a merle colored dog have an advantage if a good one is found with a good working pedigree? It's a big "if" that this could be found?


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## Karin Niessen

Debbie Skinner said:


> Harlequin/Merle is a recognized color. However, I wasn't considering this color as it's a "rare" color of the Beauceron. I've never met one that is a good working dog. Would using a merle colored dog have an advantage if a good one is found with a good working pedigree? It's a big "if" that this could be found?


If you see my post, you'd rather not use the merle/harlequin, because you would get the chance of breeding double merles (so MM) as merle can be hard to see in sables. In my opinion it would be wise to stay on the safe side and just use the normal bi-coloured Beauce


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## Stephanie O'Brien

Ann, to answer your question about your bicolor malinois female:

Her mother is a Malinois named Gonda. Gonda is a daughter of Byrak aka Dovre Fjeld Xhone, an excellent dog that I used to own with Waleed. He was a very dark sabled dog. He has no GSD in his immediate bloodline but being that he is from the NVBK, far far back who really knows. What I can tell you is that there was ONE bicolor male in a litter we did with a Perle de Tourbiere bred female years ago but when repeated, none. He does tend to throw some dark sabled malinois though.
Gonda's mother was Tosca (full littermate sister to A'Tim). Again, NVBK lines.

Your female's father is Edoc du Ciel Rouge. His pedigree is heavier on Elgos, lots of sable coloring in there. Im sure there are a few GSDs back there somewhere 
Using GSDs in the NVBK (and KNPV) breeding programs was not uncommon as Debbie already said. One of the most well known examples is probably Bart Bellon's Cat. 1 champ Flup (Joeri). He was 1/2 GSD and used ALOT for breeding there and also in the US, primarily in the northeast. 
Interesting discussion...

I definitely see a connection with heavy sable malinois lines popping out some odd colors here and there, bicolor being one.


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## Kristen Cabe

Jason Caldwell said:


> There are many people on here who might begin to give beaucerons the same level of interest as GSDs and malis.


I'd LOVE to have a Beauceron. I've liked them for years. They are just very rare and expensive, as Jeff said, and you don't have as much assurance as to what you might be getting with them.


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## Debbie Skinner

Karin Niessen said:


> If you see my post, you'd rather not use the merle/harlequin, because you would get the chance of breeding double merles (so MM) as merle can be hard to see in sables. In my opinion it would be wise to stay on the safe side and just use the normal bi-coloured Beauce


I agree with you. Especially since merles generally are even worse "upstairs" than the bicolor. Besides hypothetically the project would include my favorite male bicolor Beauceron "Avatar" FRIII and his sire Phantom for the males.


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## Debbie Skinner

I googled for "beauceron malinois croise" searching for photos on French sites. thumbnail photo is 11 mos old.

Also, a bunch of photos of Malinois/Beauceron x : http://www.linternaute.com/nature-animaux/temoignage/temoignage/177350/malinois-croise-beauceron/


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## Debbie Skinner

Kristen Cabe said:


> I'd LOVE to have a Beauceron. I've liked them for years. They are just very rare and expensive, as Jeff said, and you don't have as much assurance as to what you might be getting with them.


Yes, crap shoot and you could end up with a "crapper" especially since they are slow to show what they are about.


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## Anna Kasho

How interesting... I can see the tan points under the sable...He is a handsome dog, I wonder if they all come out looking that way? Based on the pics I would have guessed that was a GSD cross. I wonder if that coloring always means they're carrying the bicolor gene? I have seen pics of several malinois with very similar color and markings.

Question. You mentioned breeding a female malinois to beauceron male. Why is that any better than beauce female to mal male? I do not see a difference, it is the same cross... Unless you are thinking of specific dogs, where you have a good male available but not female?


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## Debbie Skinner

Anna Kasho said:


> How interesting... I can see the tan points under the sable...He is a handsome dog, I wonder if they all come out looking that way? Based on the pics I would have guessed that was a GSD cross. I wonder if that coloring always means they're carrying the bicolor gene? I have seen pics of several malinois with very similar color and markings.
> 
> Question. You mentioned breeding a female malinois to beauceron male. Why is that any better than beauce female to mal male? I do not see a difference, it is the same cross... Unless you are thinking of specific dogs, where you have a good male available but not female?


I always put more stock in the female (maybe it's superstition). Also, it's much harder to find a good female Beauceron than male Beauceron. When you find one for work, it's almost always males. I wasn't thinking of specific dogs. If there is anything to it that females influence more, I would want to start with a malinios bitch. I think the good female Beaucerons because it's hard to find would be bred to Beaucerons. I'm sure you could do it with Male Malinois x Female Beauceron as well.


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## Tracey Hughes

My male Malinois produced a couple of bi-colors in his first litter. If I do the breeding I have in mind with him this winter and I get any bi colors this time I will see if at that time you are needing one for your program. I would gladly donate one and if it turns out good enough to be used then go for it if you don't mind a UKC reg'd dog.

I have been a Beauceron fan for along time(weird as I have never seen a workin one in person yet lol). I was a member of the BCA sometime in the early 90s. I had a couple of your videos and Flam to this day remains one of my fave dogs. I also liked Champion and the "I" bitches you had back then. I was so close to getting a pup from you I believe off Isabeau but just before that I had a shot at a GSD from Lindenhalle kennels(Dieter to this day is one of the few people I admire in dogs) so there went that plan and since that time it has been mainly Mals and GSDs for me(with an Am Bulldog thrown in from time to time)..

I still plan on getting a male Beauce one of these days but it had better be really soon as I am getting weaker and older....

Kudos to you and your honesty with your breed...all the best.


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## Debbie Skinner

Hi Tracey. Do you think your male produce true bicolors with the marks on the chest, nose, eyebrows, legs, or an extended saddle? One friend told me that a true bicolor will have the penciling marks on the toes, but I'm not sure if that's always an indicator. Yes, you have been a fan of the Beauce for years! I have a daughter of Isabeau still and she is 8 years old and a 10 year old great-grandson of Champion. We are all getting older! Just yesterday I put the first ride on a filly that I raised so hey, you are only as old as you think! LOL THANKS for the offer. I'll let you know if this idea becomes a project. Right now it's all in the "talk" stage. I hope the breed community can wrap their heads around the possibility..


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## Tracey Hughes

I'll try to dig up a puppy pic of the bi color daughter, I placed her at 4 mos in an Agility home as they didn't care about her "off" color..she looked just like a bi GSD, but I don't recall any pencilling so perhaps she wasn't "true". Bloodlines similar to what Stephanie had mentioned, Perle de Tourbiere and lots of NVBK dogs way bac

I am on one of the Beauceron lists and I am saddened to see that most people(as in all breeds I suppose) are still in denial about how we are losing the strong working dogs over time...it is a long road back when only a couple of people see the truth.


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## Debbie Skinner

Tracey Hughes said:


> I'll try to dig up a puppy pic of the bi color daughter, I placed her at 4 mos in an Agility home as they didn't care about her "off" color..she looked just like a bi GSD, but I don't recall any pencilling so perhaps she wasn't "true". Bloodlines similar to what Stephanie had mentioned, Perle de Tourbiere and lots of NVBK dogs way bac
> 
> I am on one of the Beauceron lists and I am saddened to see that most people(as in all breeds I suppose) are still in denial about how we are losing the strong working dogs over time...it is a long road back when only a couple of people see the truth.



Do they look like Anne's bi-color Malinios (photo on page 5 of this thread)???

I'm saddened too  It seems many folks are happy with a dog that looks the part but ain't. I some up most of these dogs as "maturbators and liars" as they look big and tough, but are not and they are just self absorbed and self serving animals. I joking say the solution is to develop a DNA marker test for the breeders/owners to check for delusional disorder and this would go a long way to fix the problems in "working" breeds that no longer work.


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## Debbie Skinner

I mean "sum" not some.. probably other mistakes like always too..


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## Anna Kasho

Debbie - Here's a full-body pic. I'd offer her, but she's not really breeding material. She bites, but she's a nervous, high-strung little thing, the lack of exposure while she was raised didn't help. You could meet her if you like. I think you mentioned getting supplies at Henco, out in the valley? I've seen your card on their ad board before. I go there with a friend every couple months.


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## Debbie Skinner

Anna Kasho said:


> Debbie - Here's a full-body pic. I'd offer her, but she's not really breeding material. She bites, but she's a nervous, high-strung little thing, the lack of exposure while she was raised didn't help. You could meet her if you like. I think you mentioned getting supplies at Henco, out in the valley? I've seen your card on their ad board before. I go there with a friend every couple months.


Anna, thanks for the offer...definitely need hard and calm I think for the female. But, thanks. I'm very picky about the female and I think ideally the brood bitch should come from a line that produces several exceptional puppies in each litter..example her sire and dam came from litters of many good puppies and then she also came from a litter of many great siblings. 

I don't know if we or anyone in the Beauceron community will do this project ever actually. If the French club isn't interested, I don't see a reason to do it. Even over in France many of the "working" Beauceron breeders will see a dog they like working and then ask "does he calm down?" "how is he in the house?" "Is he good with children, other dogs, puppies?", "does he bark in the kennel?" The dog must be exceptionally "easy to live with" for many to breed the dog. 

I do go to Henco when I'm taking a litter of Beaucerons for ear crops (Dr. LaBounty in Studio City). Henco is a long drive so I don't go otherwise as I live south of Temecula in Aguanga..out in the hills and Henco is clear in Sun Valley. I wish I could go more often as they have great prices on the Innova EVO. My next Beauceron litter is not planned until sometime in 2010.


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

I Agree te black and tan on Malinois is obviously related with x Lines on the past

Long time ago there was some "rumors' Zodt was a malinois x pitbull cross,that was only a Rumor, but is common to zodt to give colored chldren.

I had seen from black and tan Malinois from ZOdt and also a puppie from zodt that looked like a weimaraner when puppie.

This is a pedigree of an inbreeding based on zodt look ath the sire

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/296960/Ledicky-Dances-with-Malinois

As you already said bart bellon had on the past a gsdx mali dog

so who knows, GSD, pitbull?

Remember that for some belgian breeders the Malinois is the "working dog from Belgium" no matters the lines they come from, and on Holland they dont want a purebrred dog, they are looking for High Quality working dogs, so Who really knows the truth behind the pedigrees?

I think is not a weird think for the beauceron people to look for improvement on the breed using another breeds as long as keeping the standar of the breed an improving it qualities.

Most of the breeds we have are related to other breeds, and working dogs breeders use that resources to get better dogs, look at the Dutch sheperds they use Malinois all the time to improve working characteristics.

We have a quote on our country

if looks like a duck, walks like a duck and makes noise like a duck is a DUCk

or i would say? If Looks as a Beauceron, walks like a beauceron and barks like a beauceron is a Beauceron!, and if he works like a Malinois, I want ONE!


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