# How early can you test for hunt drive ?? ..



## Geoff Empey

I've heard that it is hard to test for hunt drive in a younger pup. Is that true? Can't you show a pup a treat and hide it close but hard to get, (say in a pocket) to see how hard the pup works for it? 

Is there any methods you can use for puppy testing this to get an idea of a pups future hunt drive?


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## Carol Boche

I dunno....I am working on that with Ash....throw her ball from the living room to the kitchen and she chases it, and it rolls under or behind something and she looks all over for it. She will come back to me once or twice but then turns and runs back right away. 

I started it after she figured out that I was actually tossing the ball for her to chase.


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## mike suttle

You can see hunt drive in some puppies very early on.


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## Geoff Empey

mike suttle said:


> You can see hunt drive in some puppies very early on.


How early? What indications are we looking at outside of Carol's ball description? .. and if that is 100% reliable such as my description for going for food in an unaccessable pocket.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I agree with Mike, you can see it very early in some pups. In really young pups I find it's easiest to test with food, I take them somewhere and sprinkle food around then watch who stays focused on the search, how they search (visual vs smell), how hard they will work to get to an area to check it or get to something they have found, how easily they are distracted and if they are distracted do they go right back to searching or wander off, etc. I do this individually and as a group since some pups will show differently in each situation. Later I'll do the same thing but hiding a toy.


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## Harry Keely

Once my pups started eating dry food on a regular I started them with scattering there food and make them hunt for it to eat some caught on quicker then others but its a excellent start to teaching young pups to use there noses then you just progress it from there with obstacles and dark areas, elevated and so on.


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## will fernandez

With older pups that know the game I will throw a object into high grass, watch them to see from what distance they pick up the objects odor and work their way to it. Also like to throw objects from outside in the daylight into a dark shed. I like to watch for how they enter the dark area...without hesitation or do they slow down before entering and searching.


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## Geoff Empey

will fernandez said:


> With older pups that know the game I will throw a object into high grass, watch them to see from what distance they pick up the objects odor and work their way to it. Also like to throw objects from outside in the daylight into a dark shed. I like to watch for how they enter the dark area...without hesitation or do they slow down before entering and searching.



How old are we talking about here Will? 8-10 weeks?


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## will fernandez

I have never tried it on a pup that young(I like to deal with dogs a little older). I cannot see why it would not work--if the pup does a fine job of it...there's a good chance you have something to work with.


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## mike suttle

here is the thing......some puppies will show you excellent hunt drive by 8 weeks old. And other puppies will show you zero hunt drive and focus on anything at that young age, but still develop excellent hunt drive and focus on the task as they get older. 
So while you can see good hunt drive in some puppies early on, many puppies will hunt fine as adults even if they showed no hunt drive as puppies. 
I kept a male Malinois from Arko two years ago because no one wanted to buy him. He simply did not work at all for the first 6 months of his life, he would not bite, would not look at a toy (and would sure as hell not hunt for a toy for one second), would not chase a rag.....nothing. I tried to give him away a few times but no one wanted him. By the time he was 15 months old he passed the US Customs and Border Patrol selection testing but was returned during the 30 day probation period for biting a handler. 
They have some of the strictest hunt drive criteria in the business and he passed it. I got him back and started doing bitwork with him since he was now older and ready to work.He was then sold as a dual purpose patrol/narc dog to a dept in MD and he is now the best dog they have.
The point is that you can see some traits in very young puppies, or with some dogs it can take a long time to come out.


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## will fernandez

I agree with Mike


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## Konnie Hein

I expect an 8 week old pup to hunt for food or a toy (on a very elementary level), if I'm going to pick it as a detection pup. I'd actually prefer to use a toy instead of food, only because I've had a couple of puppies that hunted with a lot of persistence for food, but never developed very persistent hunt drive for a toy/ball. I don't have experience with testing puppies younger than this. Kadi - how early have you seen these traits?

Nothing is ever 100%, and so it goes with puppies too. :wink:


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## Bob Scott

Ditto on the 8 wks! 
My older GSD was finding me in the woods at 12 wks old after I had a 4-5 min lead.
I don't look at the "find" so much with a young pup as much as I look at continued effort. If I toss a ball into a corn field I want the dog to still be looking 20 mins later if he hasn't found it. 
You can teach a lap dog to find something in the house.
Hunt drive is the willingness to keep looking!


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## Geoff Empey

So if a pup offers up 'hunt drive' at a young age does that reflect on what that drive would be as an adult? 

Or could it be like Mike's example where a dog needed to mature to bring out those working drives that we all are looking for? Could that example work in reverse .. say as a pup it is go go go and then as it matures it turns into a dud? Or can that drive to 'hunt' be built upon?


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## Kadi Thingvall

> Or could it be like Mike's example where a dog needed to mature to bring out those working drives that we all are looking for? Could that example work in reverse .. say as a pup it is go go go and then as it matures it turns into a dud?


And that's the joy of breeding  Pups can show things young that they don't have as adults, and vice versa. I've seen dogs like Mike's example, who basically showed nothing until 12-14 months then suddenly turned on in a big way. And I've seen pups that were hell on wheels seem to loose it, usually around teething, and never get it back. That's where knowing your bloodlines is very important. Knowing how the lines usually mature, when certain things seem to "kick in", etc so you can predict what the adult dog will be like. But it's kind of like predicting the weather, you may be right a lot, but you won't be right 100% of the time. 



> Or can that drive to 'hunt' be built upon?


Drives can definitely be built on, and on the flip side they can be squashed. You can't create something that doesn't exist at all, but you can improve on something already there. How much depends on the dog and how good you are as a trainer. On a scale of 1 - 10 (1 being lowest) you aren't going to make a 1 a 10 just through good training, but you might make a 1 a 2 or 3, and an 8 a 9 or 10. Conversely you can make a 4 a 1, pet homes do it all the time, or a 10 a 6 or 7.


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## Carol Boche

Geoff Empey said:


> So if a pup offers up 'hunt drive' at a young age does that reflect on what that drive would be as an adult?
> 
> Or could it be like Mike's example where a dog needed to mature to bring out those working drives that we all are looking for? Could that example work in reverse .. say as a pup it is go go go and then as it matures it turns into a dud? Or can that drive to 'hunt' be built upon?


I think that is the million dollar question. 

I would say that what the pup does at a young age plays a part as to what they will be like when they grow up. 

Ya just never know. And, I think that the way the puppy is raised has something to do with it too. There is always the chance that someone can "kill" the drive in a pup....

I agree with Bob....it is not the finding of the toy or whatever that I am interested in, it is the willingness to keep searching for it that I like to see. 

With young pups, I will "help" them after a while by changing position, but I will never "show" them where something is at.....BIG rewards when they do find it. I feel that the find encourages a youngster to want to keep doing it time after time.


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## Geoff Empey

Thanks all, 

Makes sense. You know me gotta keep asking those million dollar questions or else I'll never get those million dollar answers!  

My upcoming litter has some pups reserved for SAR homes. I'm taking it very seriously that the pups that go to these homes are the best for that discipline that they can be. To me it is the most important job a K9 can have. As all of you that work in that discipline know that one successful track or find makes a big difference for someone and their families, nothing more honourable IMO.


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## Daryl Ehret

I turned in my SAR application today at the sherrif's office. Found out about a drug dog class being held here on Sunday also. Finally a chance to get actively training with my dogs, and pick up some new skills. It's been three weeks since my move, and I feel like I've been slackin' off.


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## Carol Boche

Daryl Ehret said:


> I turned in my SAR application today at the sherrif's office. Found out about a drug dog class being held here on Sunday also. Finally a chance to get actively training with my dogs, and pick up some new skills. It's been three weeks since my move, and I feel like I've been slackin' off.


Excellent!!!! Congrats and HAVE FUN!!! Keep us posted on what happens please. :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott

Geoff Empey said:


> So if a pup offers up 'hunt drive' at a young age does that reflect on what that drive would be as an adult?
> 
> Or could it be like Mike's example where a dog needed to mature to bring out those working drives that we all are looking for? Could that example work in reverse .. say as a pup it is go go go and then as it matures it turns into a dud? Or can that drive to 'hunt' be built upon?



When a good breeder tests the dogs and says "this dog will do this and that dog will do that" it still depends on how the pup is brought up by the new owner. 
The pup with all the potential in the world could be crap if it isn't raised/trained correctly.


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## Geoff Empey

Bob Scott said:


> When a good breeder tests the dogs and says "this dog will do this and that dog will do that" it still depends on how the pup is brought up by the new owner.
> The pup with all the potential in the world could be crap if it isn't raised/trained correctly.


Yeah that's why I'm really particular where these pups will go. I've already dismissed some people who want a pup already. It just doesn't make sense to hand some people a loaded gun if you know what I mean. Plus after the pup placement I intend to offer as much support I can. Point less experienced people in the right direction and encourage the experienced.


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## Howard Gaines III

Going back to my Lab days, I'm thinking young. Does the puppy show a marked interest in staying with the scent to find a bumper or ball? Using the duck/goose wing for me works as there is the "smell" factor...


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## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> When a good breeder tests the dogs and says "this dog will do this and that dog will do that" it still depends on how the pup is brought up by the new owner.
> The pup with all the potential in the world could be crap if it isn't raised/trained correctly.


 Ah Mr. Scott you are so right! Beat it up and it will be a PPD for sure. Geoff screen them close!


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## Jennifer Michelson

So, I have my first puppy in 10 years....I got my current guy, Griffin, at 4-5 months old and was really semi-clueless about how to start. My current pup now is 15 weeks old. 

What are you all looking for in hunt drive--how long do you expect a puppy of this age to try to get at his food/toy? Remus is more food drivey now than ball/toy (though he really likes the rag...)

And what exactly do you do to try to develop this behavior?

I do remember Griffin having a pronounced hunt drive when young, but I also remember going through a period where I thought he didnt have much drive--I'm not really remembering how young he was--but probably 6months or under. He is considered very high drive at this point and will hunt for as long as it takes.

Remus will be an HR dog, so obviously hunt drive is very important to me. I had been reassured by the breeder that his prey drive is good, but hadnt thought about the hunt drive until this thread.


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## Carol Boche

Ash is a peristent little crapper.....I will toss her toy and she will look for it for a few minutes, come back to me, grab my pant leg or jump on me and then go back to looking for it......she might get sidetracked on the couch corner and I just give a "NO", "let's go" command and she goes back to looking for it. 

Last night I used a little food duck (stuffed toy that holds food) and put some boiled chicken in it....geesh....she was not gonna give up on that one....in fact, when she found it she killed it before she brought it to me to open.....

IF I see her losing interest then I will change position so that she "hunts" closer to the object.....I want her to have success before she gives up.....

I guess I don't have a time limit per say, I just watch her and make sure I do not push her to the point that she gives me the "screw it, I don't want it" behavior.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I take Extra out to the Schutzhund club, sprinkle a few pieces of food around in the grass (our field has tall "lawn grass" vs the really shortly mowed stuff) and sit there holding her long line while she searches. When possible I do this loose, but since she may try to go get involved with the dog on the field she has to stay on a line. Every once in awhile I will toss a few more pieces out there, so there is always something for her to hunt for. We'll do this for 20-30 minutes straight and other then occasionally glancing up because a dog/handler came our direction she hunts the entire time. Usually I put her up because I've either run out of food, gotten bored watching her, or its time for me to get one of the adult dogs out to work. I've been doing this with her since she was 8 weeks old or so, started out with more food in a smaller area (what she could reach on a 6 foot leash) and progressed to a lot less food in an area the size of a long line or flexi-lead. She's almost 4 months old now.

Normally I let my pups watch more of what is going on out on the field, but Extra was way to "into" (not in a good way) the other dogs when I got her, so we started this as a desensitization thing, keep her focused on the food/hunt and not the other dogs. Now I'm just doing it to build the hunt drive. I've also started doing similar things with toys, although they have to be hidden in areas of taller grass 

At home I will have my son hold Extra (or whatever pup I'm raising) while I walk around the room pretending to hide a toy or food item in various spots (I do hide it in one) then when I'm done he turns them loose and we let them search. Eventually this game turns into a whole house search as I go out of sight while he holds them then come back and turn them loose. 

Works really well to wear out a young dog during bad weather  Scent work is actually pretty exhausting.


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## Daryl Ehret

I do 20-30 minute sessions also, maybe 2 or 3 times in a day, with two or more hours between them. I gradually increase the difficulty of the search with each venture out, by doing things like throwing/placing the object further out, and aiming it/hiding it in more difficult terrain (thick brush, woodpile, whatever). This increases the search length of time, naturally, and tests the dog's persistance. I'd always want the dog to succeed, so less is more, so to speak. If my dog gives up, then I would feel like I failed, not him. Sometimes I'll toss an object way out as far as I can, letting the dog see where it lands, but then spin him around a circle or two before releasing him to search. Sometimes I'll make the dog platz behind a blind, and not see where I've thrown it, and make sure he doesn't begin until I give the command 3-5 seconds later.


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## Konnie Hein

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Remus will be an HR dog, so obviously hunt drive is very important to me. I had been reassured by the breeder that his prey drive is good, but hadnt thought about the hunt drive until this thread.


I think it really depends on the lines as to what you'll get later based on what you're seeing now. I remember meeting a friend's GSD puppy when he was only 10 or so weeks of age. I thought he was a complete dud. No interest in me or toys, so he wouldn't hunt for anything. He now has pretty decent hunt drive. He flunked out of USAR training (wasn't so great on the rubble, more from a structural standpoint than anything), but does a great job in HRD work.


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