# teaching the out



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I have inherited a 3 year old Dutchie. He was "trained " in protection, was never taught to out. Not gonna be a SAR dog, he is aggressive. He knows sit and down, that's it. He goes nuts when he sees a sleeve, or anyone he thinks is a decoy. 
So training is starting completely over. We have lots to do, as anything I pick up he thinks is his, and he has no reservations trying to take it. He is learning to wait, and the brief obedience we have been doing he is picking up fast. When he gets a tug, ball, anything in his mouth, its his and he is not giving it up. Both trainers have said basically choke him out. 

So what do you do to properly teach the out at this point?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hey Julie, is that Dutchie that got transported down to you? Mike A. was telling me about him today. Pretty interesting...

Anyways, could you do a motivational out instead? If he's real possessive, choking him out would theoretically make him more so.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maren, I'd be inclined to go that route as well. I'd take the path of motivating him to release in order to obtain and "possess" another reward, by possess I really mean physical engagement not an actual take away to enjoy on his own. 

This worked well with my DS. I started with two tugs, two people. Bite, fight, immobilize, and then have the other activated. Watching the dog it's pretty clear when they're gonna release so as they start to I give the command. Out at that point turns into a transitional command that leads to engagement and fight. For my own dog because she is so easily tempted to get anything that someone else has it was easy, clear, quick to teach.

Everyone's teaching style and approach tends to be as different as the dogs we own so I expect at the end of the day whatever method you use will be whatever meshes best with you and the dog.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Im with maren, try to make à posetive out. Choking is crap and does nothing to lern à poesive dog to let anything go. À simpel rule is the more you pull à dog back the more it Will strive forward.
If you want the dog to hit the decoy harder you pull it back befor you release, if you want it to do à closer heel pusch it away from you i stead of trying to pull it into your leg, if you want it to dig deeper in the bite pull it back and so on. The same with an Out, if you trye to choke the dog out he will only fight more and more every time. 

Start switching toys, à good toy for à greate toy  when it works ok Move over to à decoy. You wher trying to get him calmer and in more control around the decoy, se that you have that first. Then do à heel around the decoy, when he is focust and in control let him get à bite, just à wery Quick fight, then the decoy stops, you show à tug give the comand "à new one" and play with him mutch mutch more then the decoy did. The decoy can be prety "boring". the. Do it again, heel, decoy, tug.
When this works you can have the decoy as the only reward. Heel> decoy, the decoy frees, when you fel he Will releas on you comand you tell him to and when he releases the decoy Will give à new bite. Then you just do it like that an increase the distans from you to the decoy. I often lett the dog win the sleeve, suit when hes done 3-4 nice outs in à row.

But to do this downt forget to train him to come to you with the toy, tug, sleeve. You are wher the Fun hapens  prety basic stuff but it do work.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks y'all. They laughed at me when I was trying to trade off toys. It has been working with a ball, or if he grabs a stick, but the tugs, or sleeve he is obsessed and hangs on with teeth and feet. He does have a deep full grip . I he really doesn't know to play here, as he is serious. I did get him playing a little with me. I am teaching him to wait when I have a tug, as he just tries to climb anyone with something he wants.

Maren, yes lol interesting dog. Tell Mike he is running in the crate now, and the only time the muzzle had to be used was at the vet. He has really been sweet with me. Anyway, I'm not seeing where choking this dog is going to teach anything. I have just never seen one with this type of "training" before.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Are you well versed in teaching a motivational out?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> The same with an Out, if you trye to choke the dog out he will only fight more and more every time.
> 
> Start switching toys, à good toy for à greate toy  when it works ok Move over to à decoy. You wher trying to get him calmer and in more control around the decoy, se that you have that first. Then do à heel around the decoy, when he is focust and in control let him get à bite, just à wery Quick fight, then the decoy stops, you show à tug give the comand "à new one" and play with him mutch mutch more then the decoy did. The decoy can be prety "boring". the. Do it again, heel, decoy, tug.
> When this works you can have the decoy as the only reward. Heel> decoy, the decoy frees, when you fel he Will releas on you comand you tell him to and when he releases the decoy Will give à new bite. Then you just do it like that an increase the distans from you to the decoy. I often lett the dog win the sleeve, suit when hes done 3-4 nice outs in à row.
> ...


 This is exactly what I did with this dog.....
http://www.specialistk9.com/capovideo.html

When he came to us from Romania he was so bite driven than an out was impossible. To be considered a viable prospect to any LE agency I had to get him under control so I did exactly what Andreas said. The video is after 2 weeks of work. It's a bit boring but shows how it's done. At this point the tug was taken out of the equation.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I am good with motivationals, but all the dogs I have dealt with will engage in play. He is just starting to see this is fun. I have not had him a week yet, but I really want to get him on the right track, and didn't agree with the trainer on this issue. They are great, and I respect thier methods mostly. They also listen to my ideas and give an honest opinion if I'm thinking like an idiot or not lol.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

to make it visual , here is how I would do it , A young dog from my breeding in luxemburg , helper is jos patrissi multiple WUSV and FCI

in the beginning the helper gives the out command , for reasons of timing and direct refocussing at the helper at right moment
if you do this long enough there will be a connection on the dogs harddisc between command out , and opening his mouth
same has to be done with toys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5plll-hjHo&list=UU1cHvGPkZKo1OLvA6Aq1w_g&index=51&feature=plcp


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

herman williams said:


> to make it visual , here is how I would do it , A young dog from my breeding in luxemburg , helper is jos patrissi multiple WUSV and FCI
> 
> in the beginning the helper gives the out command , for reasons of timing and direct refocussing at the helper at right moment
> if you do this long enough there will be a connection on the dogs harddisc between command out , and opening his mouth
> ...


Herby, I think you may have posted the wrong video.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

no , in the beginning of the clip you can see how Jos is doing it , give bite , let win , grab other pillow and yell OUT , and give bite again


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

herman williams said:


> no , in the beginning of the clip you can see how Jos is doing it , give bite , let win , grab other pillow and yell OUT , and give bite again


OK, then it's the block from viewing the video, your link displays ablock video from you county message, then it jumps to another video of a trial.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

yeah I hate the new youtube setup , as they automatically go on to show the next video in line


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

herman williams said:


> no , in the beginning of the clip you can see how Jos is doing it , give bite , let win , grab other pillow and yell OUT , and give bite again


Herman, I am not sure about Julie's dog but her limited description led me to believe she might have the same challenges that I did with mine. We attempted the technique described above. It did not work. Once she had it on the ground and began to fight with it we'd have to choke her off of it. 

I mentioned elsewhere that as long as she didn't get the chance to take the object off someplace (i.e. to the ground) to fight with, outting off the object was very easy and was done on the first attempt when I put her on a sleeve. Obviously, previous to that I did have her outting off the jute tugs using the method I mentioned above.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i like the dog a lot

what i hated to watch in this video was a nice dog with a handler constantly yanking on it, not even always holding the lead in the correct hand, who was getting NO training benefit with her dog from this short session, and maybe happy after it finished thinking "she" accomplished something 

nit picking of course without knowing the full picture, and maybe she took over and copied what she saw ... the dog already has nice engagement and a nice out imo, but i don't think it needs any more sleeve "giveaways" ...some were slipped very quick...i think it's definitely ready for more outs while ON the sleeve with rebites ... with the command coming from the handler

i've felt lots of sleeve giveaways builds possessiveness and can make the out harder to train ... but if that is wrong could you explain why ?

btw, this clip might fit nicely in the "lead thread" ... 
- of how not to use one


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

call me crazy...but one thing I would not do with him, is allow him to HAVE anything. 

I would not let go of, or throw anything, until he starts outing of of stuff that is being held...and being more controlled and respectful of you.

And would do lots of stuff like what Howard has posted, as well as with sleeves on the ground...


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## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Im with maren, try to make à posetive out. Choking is crap and does nothing to lern à poesive dog to let anything go. À simpel rule is the more you pull à dog back the more it Will strive forward.
> If you want the dog to hit the decoy harder you pull it back befor you release, if you want it to do à closer heel pusch it away from you i stead of trying to pull it into your leg, if you want it to dig deeper in the bite pull it back and so on. The same with an Out, if you trye to choke the dog out he will only fight more and more every time.
> 
> Start switching toys, à good toy for à greate toy  when it works ok Move over to à decoy. You wher trying to get him calmer and in more control around the decoy, se that you have that first. Then do à heel around the decoy, when he is focust and in control let him get à bite, just à wery Quick fight, then the decoy stops, you show à tug give the* comand "à new one"* and play with him mutch mutch more then the decoy did. The decoy can be prety "boring". the. Do it again, heel, decoy, tug.
> ...


Andreas, what do you mean by "a new" command? If I have been using the command OUT for the tug switch during play, do I have to use another different command for switching the decoy to the tug?

What if the dog likes it too much to possess the sleeve of the decoy than to release for the tug?



herman williams said:


> to make it visual , here is how I would do it , A young dog from my breeding in luxemburg , helper is jos patrissi multiple WUSV and FCI
> 
> in the beginning the helper gives the out command , for reasons of timing and direct refocussing at the helper at right moment
> if you do this long enough there will be a connection on the dogs harddisc between command out , and opening his mouth
> ...



Herman, if the helper gives the command for the OUT, the dog will learn to respect the helper, won't it? and wouldn't this be undesirable?

Appreciate your comments.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I would hazard a bet that this dog will most likely ignore a tug if in the presence of a decoy or helper with bite equipment, especially once he is allowed to bite..the tug will be invisible, and have zero influence, that is my bet..

one thing to have your helpers consider, and talk might be to have the helper choke the dog INTO the sleeve, have seen this work well...

as far as outing by the helper, and the dog respecting the helper, depends on what your gonna do with the dog I suppose...lots of people do this for various sports...

"Might" not be a bad idea for this type of dog to trust and respect the training helper, if that helper is gonna be doing all the initial work with the dog, getting him back in line....cant say 

My dog will out for my main helper, he is her buddy... it does not translate to other people that work the dog.

no expert here...just thinking out loud....


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

He is not ready for a decoy yet, as I have no control. 
Joby, I did let him have stuff the first couple of times, but even if I hold it makes no difference once he grabs it. Even if he takes the tug, he is not aggressive towards me trying to take it, yet anyway. He just will nit let go. I see your point I believe about winning it, as ye doesn't want to play, just take possession of whatever. 
I will try some different things with him this week, and really appreciate the ideas. I can already see him watching and wanting to engage to play.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> He is not ready for a decoy yet, as I have no control.
> Joby, I did let him have stuff the first couple of times, but even if I hold it makes no difference once he grabs it. Even if he takes the tug, he is not aggressive towards me trying to take it, yet anyway. He just will nit let go. I see your point I believe about winning it, as ye doesn't want to play, just take possession of whatever.
> I will try some different things with him this week, and really appreciate the ideas. I can already see him watching and wanting to engage to play.


the waiting game is most likely in your future...

try some food...who knows might work....doubt it though..

keep us posted...will be a good topic...to keep tabs on...

good luck with him...


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Joby, I don't think anything will get him off the helper right now. Maybe the second decoy, as someone mentioned above.
I tried the choking into, but it was just with a stick he had grabbed in the yard, and he had it gripped to where it wouldn't go back enough in his mouth. He ended up exhausted, he is not in shape at all, layed down, still attached lol. I did get him distracted with s tug then.

Really have no plans for him, so if he is a crapper that's not a big deal, but he has to learn manners, and I would like to give him a "job" he enjoys. His previous owner thought he would make a good SAR prospect.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm guessing he likes to fight a bit too, if not a lot. If this is the case use it to your advantage by utilizing the out for him to initiate a new fight. I found that tugging wasn't enough of a reward, it had to be rough and intense. Then once I immobilized the tug and she was presented with a new opportunity to get engaged in a fight that's all that was needed get her to release on her own. It really didn't take all that long to remove the second person out of the picture and narrow it down to just me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> Joby, I don't think anything will get him off the helper right now. Maybe the second decoy, as someone mentioned above.
> I tried the choking into, but it was just with a stick he had grabbed in the yard, and he had it gripped to where it wouldn't go back enough in his mouth. He ended up exhausted, he is not in shape at all, layed down, still attached lol. I did get him distracted with s tug then.
> 
> Really have no plans for him, so if he is a crapper that's not a big deal, but he has to learn manners, and I would like to give him a "job" he enjoys. His previous owner thought he would make a good SAR prospect.



just thinkin out loud, you'll get it figured out....

he might make a good SAR prospect, unless he thinks a person is ready to do some bitework :-o:-o 

good luck, keep us posted please..


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

@ esther , its not so much who gives the command at first , but more for the dog to link the command to the action , the reason the helper gives it is purely a timing matter


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## Kirk Russell (Aug 2, 2010)

If he is so bite driven and will not out yet, it might be better to go back teach things to start with food and then work slowly on the toy and then maybe a sleeve. After all the dog probably likes the fight and the choke off will not work on him. When I read this post i thought you might want to even try some of what Iva does on his tapes for a problem out dog, don't know if it will work or not.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think you can teach the out off the field with toys and tugs. The nvbk has the most impressive quick outs and this I how they train, unfortunately this is an adult dog so I understand it may be more difficult .......Im sure you'll need some assistance from an experienced trainer.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Thank you all for the replies. I have been working on this with something he really values, but not in the same drive. 
I have been using Ham to trade for his chew bone. Great success. Works well for a ball too.
The tug however, he is not buying it. So I have been really getting him going with a second tug, also teaching the wait when he does let go as he just leaps for the second. This is going well. Not introducing the sleeve until we have this down on tugs, and he is more in fight, as right now I am working on this when he is calm.
He doesn't get aggressive, I can pet his face, he just will not let go and holds on for dearlife. Knothead lol.
I work with two trainers about twice a week, they are the ones who recommended the choke. At this point, I feel he just needs to be taught the out. 
One of the trainers has a department in Mississippi i believe, wanting him. So that may work for him. I was really looking forward to just training this dog though. But I can't use him for SAR, and if he will work there its perfect.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sounds like he's making at least a little bit of progress learning what trade is. I've had some luck renaming the cue word since they may have previous bad associations with a certain word and end up thinking "okay, I remember this, aus is no fun because I lose the object, so I will hold on _even longer_!" Keep us posted.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

julie allen said:


> I am good with motivationals, but all the dogs I have dealt with will engage in play. He is just starting to see this is fun. I have not had him a week yet, but I really want to get him on the right track, and didn't agree with the trainer on this issue. They are great, and I respect thier methods mostly. They also listen to my ideas and give an honest opinion if I'm thinking like an idiot or not lol.



You've had him less then a week. Step back from training for just a bit and help the dog learn how to have fun. :wink:


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Bob is right! Don’t expect miracles over night. To him the command to out means..”Fight and hang on”. You have to change his mind, I had the same problem with one of my older dogs took me months to get a nice out.
You can start using a trade of food or toys in the beginning, but their comes a time where the dog must out for you, even when he doesn’t want to! Start him on a tug with you to teach him the new expectations.

With a dog who get as loaded as this dog sounds, that calls for a correction. I use a hang for those types as the dog is given no other choice but to drop it, and you reward immediately at the start. Hanging also takes the drive out of a dog, where as a prong (and sometimes electric depending on its past use) can cause the dog to come up in drive or cause hectic behavior. You want to work the dog calmly at first and once he can out cleanly off the tug with you in all scenarios, only then would you consider bringing a helper/decoy into the picture as that is only going to “amp” him up. Baby steps..you have to completely go back and re teach him and that is not a quick fix. For safety reasons, with a new dog, when I am alone I work my dogs on a post so I am always in control.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

yes I think we have been doing pretty much what you said Tracey, except the correction as I don't feel he knows the command, so I don't think correcting something he doesn't know will benefit. 

We are working slow, and he is progressing nicely I feel. 

Maren I haven't thought about a different cue word,thank you. Really after talking with his owner, I don't think any words were given as commands. He thought fuss was bite.

Playing is a big deal, he really doesn't know how. I don't mean it to sound that I am working him much. He comes to training with my other two dogs, but he gets out and we fetch, or play hiding toys in desk drawers and lockers. Maybe five minutes of obedience with food rewards. No real training, just getting out so he sees places as fun.

I really wish there was sport training close to me, hearing from y'all I'd lime to try some things out.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

is he a sleeve dog? suit dog? or?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

anytime a young dog is only conditioned to bite and hang on it will be harder to condition them to let loose of it later ... regardless of the sport involved 
in too many cases this is what happens

imo they can/should be taught both....as pups; when it is FUN.....if this happens, outing is usually conflict free

but so many people think it is so wonderful when their baby alligator can hang on a tug, rag or whatever ](*,) ...then they let em prance and dance all over the yard with it because it is sooo cute to watch ](*,)

i know this doesn't help you but just had to throw it in


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tracey Hughes said:


> With a dog who get as loaded as this dog sounds, that calls for a correction. I use a hang for those types as the dog is given no other choice but to drop it, and you reward immediately at the start. Hanging also takes the drive out of a dog, where as a prong (and sometimes electric depending on its past use) can cause the dog to come up in drive or cause hectic behavior. You want to work the dog calmly at first and once he can out cleanly off the tug with you in all scenarios, only then would you consider bringing a helper/decoy into the picture as that is only going to “amp” him up. Baby steps..you have to completely go back and re teach him and that is not a quick fix. For safety reasons, with a new dog, when I am alone I work my dogs on a post so I am always in control.


I don't think this requires a correction at this stage of learning. The issue I see with hanging is that for a dog with a high level of possession (like this dog seems to have) who doesn't know what out means and who is kind of uncontrolled and unstructured in the bitework, they aren't really figuring out on their own as fast because you are making them do it and not motivating them to do it (other than to avoid being hung). Then you set up this cycle of conflict and who can outlast who and you get these dogs that hold a tug or sleeve while they are being hung for seemingly an eternity because they don't know what out means other than "hold on until I *must* out simply because I'm running out of oxygen." I have had better luck having the dog think it's their idea to out rather than being made to do it, at least in the learning phase. This dog sounds like he is strictly at the learning phase. So when you brace a tug and it goes dead, so they out, or you play two ball, they learn its *their* behavior that makes the game go again, not a consequence of you doing something to him. Yes, when you hang them, they eventually let go, but they didn't have a choice in the matter so it's not really teaching. Plus since they know you are doing the hanging, that can build some conflict with the handler for some really possessive dogs when you come close to them when they are on the bite because they anticipate you're coming up to out them. You want to build up the sense of team work when the dog is on the bite, not conflict that "oh crap, the handler's coming up to hang me again..."

Once they learn the out and are motivated to do so by lots and lots of marking and immediate rebites, then you can proof and start correcting. I prefer the e-collar for this, though the prong is fine too. Just not a fan of hanging in the learning stage since it can cause conflict in really possessive dogs. On the opposite side, I had a pretty low drive dog when I first started Schutzhund that everyone told me to hang off the tug and he basically would almost shut down when I did that. He was probably thinking, "this isn't very fun because even when I get the toy, I am being hung off it it." I agree with the rest of your points though. Just wanted to comment on the hanging thing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> For safety reasons, with a new dog, when I am alone I work my dogs on a post so I am always in control.


depending on the dog and its previous training, I would be very careful in the use of the post, what might be fostering safety with one dog, might be not be safe for another...and might be inviting aggression...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

agree w/ Joby 100%

u may think the post may make it "safer" for you, and maybe that is true, but when you tie out a dog, it is being restricted and they feel it, and that will add conflict to a lot of dogs

be safe but keep your mind in the dog's head to read it well


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Well for me..the post is used as a safety precaution. I have re trained quite a few dogs with handler aggression, out issues etc. And if you keep the dog at the end of the line there is no room for him to strike out and grab you. Of course you have to know what you are doing. Just a suggestion, works for me=P~ I’d much rather that then dealing with a dog “free line” at the start if I know he is going to be a handful.

I have never had hanging cause a conflict. Of course it is a last resort, I haven’t had to do it with all dogs. If you can start motivationally of course that is the way to go but usually a time comes where the dog gives you the finger and then you need to make him out. I use fur saver, e collar, prong, cable whatever works best on the dog I am training. If all else fails, you need a dog to understand there is no other option but to obey.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I so wish I had this Guy as a pup! His training has really been none. I don't understand who would work a dog in bite work with zero training. Ugh.
Anyway, he is leaving, and I will still keep up with his training to see how he progresses. Hate to see him go honestly. Though this Guy agreed with me on the teaching the out before he goes any further in sleeve work.
I doubt he has seen a suit. When he sees a sleeve he goes nuts, or the decoy getting the other dogs fired up. He is very protective, wouldn't let my ex husband in the house the other night. Or my son, but that's been worked on lol.
An up note, one of the nearby county guys I train with has a friend with a Dutch/mal mix pup. He has to move so the pup is coming here. She hasn't had much training either, but no aggression and is 6 or 7 months. Starting to feel like a rescue center lol.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I have never had hanging cause a conflict. Of course it is a last resort, I haven’t had to do it with all dogs. If you can start motivationally of course that is the way to go but usually a time comes where the dog gives you the finger and then you need to make him out. I use fur saver, e collar, prong, cable whatever works best on the dog I am training. If all else fails, you need a dog to understand there is no other option but to obey.


I understand what you're saying and I likewise will correct for non-compliance for an out, but that's also when the dog knows what out means. For an adult dog with no out or an inconsistent out who is learning, that's often when you get the conflict. So when you do the hanging, they start to look hectic or slightly frantic, they clutch the sleeve or tug with their front legs, you can hear them whining or vocalizing with the sleeve in their mouth, or that may even whip around and try to bite the handler when they finally do out from frustration. To me, that's creating conflict and even increasing the level of possession in some dogs (not all) and not really teaching that out is desirable.

Edit: not that outing is necessarily "desirable" to the dog, but that that it understands that if it complies, it gets rewarded and less stress/conflict all around.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

I read in some psychology magazine years ago that the vast majority of the human population is predisposed to misunderstand if then statements. This sort of makes me think that if most people are muddy on the difference between telling a dog "you can have this if you let go of that", and "you can have this if and only if you let go of that" then what chance does the dog have of understanding. And even then you have to take it for granted that the dog is holding onto that because he gives a damn about that and will hold onto this because he gives a damn about this, yet doesn't care more about this than that or that than this.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Lol, I think sometimes people think too much.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

At least you're thinking. Action without thought is the providence of dogs.


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