# giving eye contact whilst tracking



## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

So for 7 weeks, ive been asling for eye contact from my 15 week GSD gisd
Today, we tracked, her 2nd track. Having been having done dinner off of scent pads so far.

She went well. Nice and calm, nose down, working tail carriage, but would look at me for direction, holding eye contact. I would gude her,and off she'd go again. By indicating the footstep with food in it. Or, as i didnt want to be cuing with my hand, i tried waiting and blocking. 2 out of 3 times, she restarted work if i waited. 3 she did not. 

More assistance, or less?
doing IPO FST


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

based on what you posted, kinda hard to answer 

1. more assistance ... to make her use her nose more and eyes less 
2. maybe quit after two reps and reward that ? (also, you didn''t say how long the track was and what the target length was)
3. maybe not feed a meal in a scent box and then start her on a track ? maybe she's just associating the scent pad as a meal, getting full and then losing motivation to track ?
4. shoot a vid of the problem session and ask the club for advice ?

by the way, why the "seven weeks" comment ? i don't get that part as it pertains to nose work.
- it sounds like you're getting what you're asking for since you didn't say the seven weeks of encouraging E.C. has been a problem


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Not sure how you're the doing scent box training but, when I was teaching tracking classes which involved just regular pet dogs my scent boxes started out as 3'x3' boxes for 10 reps. Then 2'x4' boxes for 10 reps. Then 1'x6' boxes for 10 reps. From there it was baited footsteps for short 10' tracks. From there the tracks were laid in a straight line with baiting done sporadically. None of the dogs even looked at the handlers for direction. The track command was paired with the box searches from the get go. By the time we got to the first straight line track the dogs would nose down as soon as the track command was given. These were just regular dogs to include Weimereiners, Labs, hounds, Dachshund, etc. to include even a Chinese Hairless. 

Not sure why you're asking for eye contact. I'd get the dog tracking well first then teach the eye contact if that's what you want. It's a young dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Eye contact for any scent work, IMHO, creates a dog that can become to dependent on the handler for cues especially if your offering directions. 

The dog needs to rely on it's nose, not your guidance. 

If it's loosing the track you may need to back up to the basics a bit.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I read the 'eye contact' as being more used for obedience work and getting dogs attention /focus.. Not for tracking, but I could be wrong... I also believe that eye contact for tracking is dangerous territory and actually creating problems..


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

How long are your tracks?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey Shelle, sounds like you have a lot going on down your way! 

The best assistance you can give your pup is to learn how to restrain yourself from over assisting them in this kind of work. I don't want my dogs looking at me, or for me when doing anything that involves their nose especially early on. IMO from the start they need to focus on what they are doing and their environment. I shouldn't even be a thought in their head. 

Again, just my perspective based upon how I want my dogs to work.

Separately, since I cannot quite frame up in my mind how the eye contact plays a role in what you are doing I will end my post having said what I did above.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

rick smith said:


> based on what you posted, kinda hard to answer
> 
> 1. more assistance ... to make her use her nose more and eyes less
> 2. maybe quit after two reps and reward that ? (also, you didn''t say how long the track was and what the target length was)
> ...


Thanks Rick. 
I am sure she must think the scent pad is breakfast, because it is. 
More assistance: yes guiding her with my hand, feels "team like" and right, if she needs it.
Maybe less food in scent pad, same amount of pieces, smaller pieces. So she is not filling u. p on food, more scent. I'll try this. 
Shoot a vid. Yes.But i do not have sufficient band width or speed, to uploading any. So that's not going to happen. Ive tried before, and gave up on day 2 of uploading it. 
7 weeks ive had her, and been successfully training the behaviour of eye contact, and getting it on cue. Now to proof it for fluency. Position, duration, distraction, distance. My point was, its. its the one exercise, i practice a lot and so she is conditioned to offer it, and was doing so during tracking. Natural enough. But i dont want it then


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

@ Howard and Bob.
I do not want eye contact during tracking, you misunderstand me. How to discourage, not reinforce, tips being asked. I am not explaining it well to you both. Mysty had it right. 

e/c is a behaviour, she's been drilled in during engagement training/focus. She is marker trained to give e/c. Therefore, she is throwing the behaviour in tracking. I find this with marker trained dogs. When learning a new behaviour, they offer their entire repertoire of previously learnt behaviours. Does that clarify? But i dont want it, i want to know how to discourage it.

@ Sarah. My tracks are 12 paces  S shaped, up wind, dry grass, rained on night before, using meat as food in each footstep. 

@ Howard. We are doing Schutzhund Style tracking. Footstep tracking. A very different discipline to KNPV style tracking. having done both, i admire both disciplines, for very different reasons. Your style is so much more: fun, excites me, great for bonding. And it works- They can actually find things my IPO dogs cant. I consider FST to be mindfulness for dogs. And me. aka; On purpose, in the present moment, using our 5 senses. Cool stuff, especially with older dogs, that cant be allowed to run anymore.each has their place in my life but its a rare dog that can do both. And mine i lost recently. 

@ bob, i agree. 

With regard to not doing nose work till later..... I think we disagree. And that's ok.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

if you are getting a full set of "this has worked before" offerings when you try new stuff, i would reinforce your negative markers (assuming you are not 'purely positive') .... with quicker timing.

meaning : " 'nope' that will NOT get anything "
... also with an added dose of "ignore" added on if needed 
- maybe it doesn't apply to your dog, but with the majority of my customers, they don't know how to ignore unwanted behaviors and that can tend to become more like nagging, than applying markers ... as in, too many repetitive 'nopes' equals 'nagging' ;-)
- i would also try and do other drills that do NOT require E.C. in addition to the tracking drills
- i use luring when heeling as a way to get the head where i want it without having to remind the dog to give me E.C. (again, i don't know how much you are using luring either)

there are many ways to use markers, so if you only shape what you want, disregard all of the above //LOL//


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

If you have done your scent pads correctly then the dog should understand that crushed vegetation = success. I would scale back your track lengths and stop using your hands to guide the dog. It's not so much a marker thing but the dog used to getting all the answers from you. It could be you are being too helpful and not letting the dog learn on its own. Go back to the length you can do before the dog stops to give you a glance. I think the length is such that the dog is used to working for that time value without getting some kind of support from you. So she reaches that point and looks to you for assistance. 

Scale back the length, let her get to the end, praise there. Gradually increase the length by 2-3 paces per session until you are getting the longer lengths. Also increase your lead length a bit until you are off the rear quarters of the dog and away from their side which is increasing the likelihood the dog will look to you for help. If the dog starts to cast, restrain yourself from jumping in to help. Let the dog figure it out. Hold your ground until the dog is working the correct direction and follow on. 
I don't see this as a marker-trained-dog-thing but more of to-much-handler-helping-thing. I can see when the dog is going correctly to give a low-voiced, drawn out "gooood". Later you can phase out the 'goods' and use at the end or if the dog successfully works out a complicated turn.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

shelle fenton said:


> @ Howard. We are doing Schutzhund Style tracking. Footstep tracking. A very different discipline to KNPV style tracking. having done both, i admire both disciplines, for very different reasons. Your style is so much more: fun, excites me, great for bonding. And it works- They can actually find things my IPO dogs cant. I consider FST to be mindfulness for dogs. And me. aka; On purpose, in the present moment, using our 5 senses. Cool stuff, especially with older dogs, that cant be allowed to run anymore.each has their place in my life but its a rare dog that can do both. And mine i lost recently.


 The box training pretty much just pairs the crushed vegetation/human odor to the food as already mentioned. It's a segway to FST. I didn't have months to train those dogs, just 5 weeks at twice a week. Even at that fast training schedule the dogs were very close to purely FST dogs. The fact that I omitted the bait sooner, and at different intervals is the only reason they picked up more speed. I used my personal dog to demo what a trailing dog looked like. I gave them the option to transfer the training to trailing and 80% of the students wanted to do that.  It's a lot less work! Be that as it may...the FST training was the foundation.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> " using 'nope' = will NOT get anything by doing that " ... also with an added dose of "ignore"
> 
> - people don't know how to ignore unwanted behaviors and that can tend to become more like nagging, than applying markers ... as in, too many repetitive 'nopes' equals 'nagging' ;-)
> 
> shape what you want, ignore what you don't want


This was rick's general reply. I slightly trimmed and adjusted it to really just to say that this will work. 

That, and to suggest starting the track with a pup that's hungrier. Meaning, the meal is on the track. Trust me, unless you have somehow created an unhealthy dependency really early on or have an insecure pup (I doubt either applies), looking at you isn't going to be a problem if the timing of the track/feeding is correct.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Fantastic responses all, thank you heaps. I got to work straight away. 
I crated her for 30 mins. then laid a 10 step track. With extra food in step 3, and 6 and 10. 
tracked today, to her length. She got 7 paces, and made eye contact. So will set for 7, then 9 etc
she made e/c, and i gave a negative verbal marker of 'nope, try again' that ive been using, blocked and waited, she solved the puzzle. We did 3 more paces to end, and we had higher value food reward and 'free' command ball fetch. 
Im very happy, with her, and she me
I will do more tomorrow. And have a weekend with other half away, to track. twice. And club on friday consult. 

my trainer got back to me with let her work it out. Help less. Avoid learnt helplessness. This made sense, as after only having her for 1 week of having her, i was advised i had trained in passivity. And had to shape me up in removing dead spots in my play. Using movement in reward placements etc And i am used to working a weak nerved malinois, and this GSD pup does not require any where near as much assistance in training. 

Seems a unanimous "help less". allow her to figure it out. 
She is very keen to go tracking. Which is very encouraging. S she's keen to play any time really. 

3 tracks so far. left to figure it out, she does. at 7 paces. So next we'll try 10 paces. 

Luring is only used briefly in heel position. Its a lick of butter in a packet. Which she will work for. And we do a few reps of 2-3 paces. break and play. 2-3 paces. break and play, 3 paces. break and play, end. 

Or when i get her scrambling over/through stuff. 
Or to get the drop from a stand.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

shelle fenton said:


> Luring is only used briefly in heel position. Its a lick of butter in a packet. Which she will work for. And we do a few reps of 2-3 paces. break and play. 2-3 paces. break and play, 3 paces. break and play, end.
> 
> Or when i get her scrambling over/through stuff.
> Or to get the drop from a stand.


 Just an observation....The luring with the butter and stopping at short paces may be what's causing her transfer the same behavior to the track. Secondly...small amounts of bait on the track actually builds intensity to focus more on the track and to hunt for the next morsel. The jackpot should be at the end IMO but I don't have years of training FST so I could be mistaken.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Just an observation....The luring with the butter and stopping at short paces may be what's causing her transfer the same behavior to the track. Secondly...small amounts of bait on the track actually builds intensity to focus more on the track and to hunt for the next morsel. The jackpot should be at the end IMO but I don't have years of training FST so I could be mistaken.



Good point!

The only reason I would load the track is if I had a dog that worked to fast but there are also other ways to slow the dog down.


In Schutzhund/IPO FST the goal is for the dog to put it's nose in every foot step and make crisp 90 degree turns.

All for holding onto points.

In AKC tracking it isn't so critical as long as the dog gets to the end while still indicating on the article.

It's just pass or fail. 

I see that as being a bit more "natural".


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

IF ive done my scent pads correctly? I believe so. My trainers believe so. And her success, in working it out yesterday, have me confident.

@ Howard. FST training in 2 weeks! Id love to train on that course! I love watching good tracking teams from a beside them perspective. 

Her eye contact is fine. On cue. we are on duration. And the closer to meal time, the more eye contact offers lol

Im just getting to know her. Enjoying her, and don't hold any 'she must be at this stage or that' dogma. The luxury of knowing, you have 14yrs to nail it in 

Howard: The jackpot should be at the end IMO but I don't have years of training FST so I could be mistaken. 
I agree. I had been instructed to do otherwise. Go figure? I donthave decades of IPO3 tracking dogs, so i listened. And tried it. As she never got to the jackpot, its .not relevant.


The best assistance you can give your pup is to learn how to restrain yourself from over assisting them in this kind of work. YES! Must not rescue!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

in my opinion, a 'jackpot' is a general and often vague term.
doesn't only mean a pile of food at the end of the rainbow, nor does it specify the length of the rainbow 

generically it usually means a reward of significantly higher value and/or quantity than the constant reinforcer being used

both trainers might be correct in what they are telling you andi wouldn't get concerned over the diffs. it's YOUR system that will make the difference

if you don't understand, plan and/or apply the differences between constant, fixed variable, and random reinforcers, jackpotting can have mixed results

all markers are not applied equally and mean different things to different handlers/trainers....just sayin 

for me the devil is always in the details

glad you're getting the results you want and keeping the dog happy in the process. thats all that really matters


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

What Rick said.....

Good training isn't a dogma or dogmatic. It's being able to flex, float, and adapt with the specific needs of the individual dog.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

We tracked with my trainer along. I explained what i had done to fix eye contact being offered on the track. That i ignored it, waited, aind she resumed tracking. I got anxious, that i had not set foundation on scent pads? I decided to back up, easy at this point. And redo one. To show trainer. She went well. And we confirmed she knew what she was doing by: when her head came out scent pad area, she immediately came back in for success. Her nose was down hunting some tiny pieces of food in the grass, i could hear her sniffing, did not give eye contact, tail hanging limp. And she was hungrier today, and there was less food.
So then we set did 2 steps leading into a pad, and 3 steps into a 2nd pad. 
I was given a lesson needed in not contaminating the area in front of pad. Which i had.
So got to apply a lot of suggestions from y.ou all, successfully. ty

She got to work around other dogs, and her focus was good. 
I got to see her drive drop, as the heat rose. Noted that. We tend to train at same times, sun up/sun down, out of the heat. I need to move one session to when its warmer. 

She lost some teeth this morning. So no tug games. Gives me chance to play with a ball with her. 

And i got to see the effect of not practicing 3 months. As a late returning member came back after xmas. 
Prior to break, IPO1 level easy. Now OB is a struggle. Noted. 

I had a blast today. Learnt loads.


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