# Can the GSD be saved? German article.



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Anyone else read this article of the German Shepherd's plight? :-o
Dumb and Dumpy: Can the German Shepherd Be Saved? - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

10/28/2011
Once an icon, bad breeding has earned the German Shepherd a reputation for being sickly and dimwitted. In Germany, police have replaced them with the more aggressive Malinois. But one American breeder is trying to bring classic German Shepherds back.

Even though Wayne Curry lives in the American hinterlands, he has managed to acquire a respectable German vocabulary over time. He knows the German commands Fuß! (heel), Sitz! (sit) and Aus! (drop it).

Curry loves Germany. He has a Porsche and a BMW in his garage. But most of all, he loves the German Shepherd.

He owns a large piece of land in the small town of Rochester, Washington, a one-and-a-half-hour drive from Seattle. The property was once a Christmas tree farm, but now Curry raises and trains German Shepherds there.

He left the evergreen trees standing, and now all of his kennels are designed so that each dog has his own Christmas tree to run around. The Germanophile calls his camp "Kraftwerk K9." K9 stands for "canine."

His company signs feature the black silhouette of a German Shepherd's head. "I like Germans," he says. "They're my peers. They're competetive. They go to win."

Next to the Labrador Retriever, the German Shepherd is the second-most popular dog breed in the United States. And Curry is the most successful German Shepherd breeder in the country. He has devoted the last 20 years of his life to German Shepherds. He once raised Rottweilers, but it was a long time ago. "They don't stand a chance against the German Shepherd. They take off when they've had enough," he says.

And what about the Doberman, the Pit Bull Terrier and the Great Dane? "Not a chance!" he says.

Hitler's Favorite 

The latest copies of Schäferhund Magazin (German Shepherd Magazine) from Germany are on a table in his office. Has Curry heard that there is a passionate debate underway in Germany at the moment over the decline of the breed? And has he heard that German police forces now prefer to work with the Belgian Shepherd, or Malinois?

"Excuse me?" Curry asks, with an icy look in his eyes. He composes himself, and then launches into an angry tirade. "Even in Germany they call (the Malinois) a throwaway dog. The German Shepherd can concentrate, but the Malinois can't. And that's time and time again. I wouldn't let a Malinois near my family." And then he adds: "I think it's an ugly dog."

Nowadays, one has to travel far and wide to find such an ardent supporter of the German Shepherd. Unlike Curry, German breeders are divided over the question of what exactly makes a good German Shepherd.

Purists want to see the breed standard returned to its original form. In 1898, the cavalry captain Max von Stephanitz chose Horand von Grafrath as the first stud dog, and in doing so established the most well-known of all dog breeds. For a long time, Horand's descendants strongly resembled their progenitor. The body was relatively slim and wiry, and the back was straight as an arrow.

These animals had all the virtues that helped to make the German Shepherd an icon. Police officers in democratic countries and dictatorships alike have always valued the breed, because of its stamina, reliability and extraordinary courage. 

The classic German Shepherd became a dubious symbol under the Nazis. For a time, Adolf Hitler had three of his own. He even had an obstacle course built for his beloved dogs at the Wolf's Lair complex in present-day Poland. The Führer's favorite was a dog named "Blondi."

Because Eva Braun's terriers "Negus" and "Stasi" ran free at Obersalzberg, Hitler's mountain retreat in Bavaria, Hitler had to beseech his companion to allow him to spend time with his beloved dog. "Evi," he would ask, "won't you allow poor Blondi to spend half an hour with us?"

Hitler had the words "Always with you" stamped into her collar, and he meant it. On April 29, 1945, he sent Blondi to her eternal hunting grounds by giving her a cyanide capsule. The next day, Blondi's master and his wife Eva followed suit.

'Dog in Front, Frog in Back' 

For the last few decades, many breeders have been pushing for a new standard, so that the dogs will look better in shows. A new ideal emerged that defined what an attractive German Shepherd should look like, and it fundamentally changed the shape of the entire breed.

Today's model German Shepherd is bulkier than the breed was in Blondi's days, and now its straight back slopes sharply downward. Its curious appearance has earned the modern German Shepherd many a derisive comment. The black-and-brown breed has been mocked as a "hatchback," "carp back," "downhill dog" and "dog in front, frog in back."

Helmut Raiser from the central German town of Hannoversch Münden is one of the breed's leading critics. It's a pitiful sight "when a dog doesn't carry its tail held high, and constantly walks around with its rear end tucked in, as if a brick were hanging from its testicles," the dog trainer wrote in the Austrian dog lovers' magazine Wuff.

Dog experts say both the appearance and the performance of the former model dog have suffered. "These dogs are too stupid to run away," they say derisively.

From the standpoint of veterinary medicine, it's also more than just an aesthetic problem. Nowadays many German Shepherd puppies already show the first signs of future skeletal problems. 

Experts suspect that up to 50 percent of all puppies develop a condition called hip dysplasia. In the final stage of this painful disease, a worn femoral head rubs against the hip socket, and the nerves of the periosteum become extremely irritated. Some dogs are reduced to hopping along conspicuously, a symptom that experts call "bunny-hopping," or they lose their ability to walk altogether. Even relatively young and otherwise healthy animals often have to be put to sleep because of the condition.

Replaced by the Malinois 

Veterinarians have developed a promising treatment for another extremely painful condition known as lumbosacral stenosis, a pathological change in the region of the lumbar vertebrae and sacral bone: Using a pin, they fix in place an affected dog's seventh lumber vertebra. This enables the four-legged patient to walk with relatively little pain, although the early invalids are of course lost to the glamorous world of dog shows.

When the police in the populous western German state of North Rhine-Westphalia recently decided to do without the services of the sickly German Shepherd, it seemed that the fate of the Teutonic canine had been sealed.

They argued that the dogs, with their hip and spinal problems, were hardly creating the impression of dominance anymore, but instead were displaying the placid nature of the more lethargic St. Bernard. Law enforcement officers have recently come to prefer the hyperactive and highly aggressive "Malis," as the Malinois is known in the field. Many officers also believe that this breed is easier to train.

But there are still lovers of the classic breed all over the world. Thanks to them, traditional German Shepherds can still command absurd prices.

The New York Times recently reported on well-heeled customers who are paying close to $250,000 for individual dogs. Curry's German Shepherd breeding outfit in Washington was also mentioned in the article, which Curry found extremely irritating. "I am not pimp daddy -- I'm not going to pimp my dogs!" he says.

But Curry knows that fortunes are being paid for individual dogs. German Shepherds are particularly in demand in China at the moment. Curry himself has already received offers from shady individuals, but he says that he has turned them all down.

He says his motto is: "Put the money outside and live like the poor guy." He learned his trade from older breeders in Germany. "They are tough guys, man," he says. He used to play drinking games with the veterans until well after midnight. Eventually the Germans revealed their tricks to their strange American friend.

Maintaining Quality 

For instance, they taught him how to keep a lineage stable. Curry doesn't mate his magnificent stud dogs with just any female to produce as many offspring as possible, a common practice among many younger German breeders -- and one that produces poor results when it comes to quality. "I don't make a low-level German Shepherd either," he says.

A descendant of Irish immigrants, Curry also has an extremely valuable advantage over breeders in Germany. For example, he can have the sperm of his top stud dogs frozen and then use it when needed. The Association of German Shepherd Dogs (SV) prohibits artificial insemination in its breeding rules, which state: "Puppies that are produced in this manner are not accepted into the studbook or the membership registry of the SV."

Sperm from several of Curry's breeding dogs is stored in a laboratory in nearby Portland, Oregon. "My line will never die out," says Curry.

The undisputed alpha male in his pack is "Oruger," fondly known as "Rudy," a jet-black beast that looks frightening enough to terrify any Little Red Riding Hood lost in the woods.

The pack leader spends most of his time lounging on the floor in his master's house. But when given the right command, Rudy can bark himself into such a frenzy that foam begins to drip from his snout.

Experts distinguish between show and working dogs. In Germany, the interest of breeders has shifted almost exclusively to show lines: dogs with extremely limited capabilities, whose existence is justified solely by mindless 15-minute appearances. These dogs are not suitable for police service. Nevertheless, the offspring of champion show dogs command a high price.


Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> he has managed to acquire a respectable German vocabulary over time. He knows the German commands Fuß! (heel), Sitz! (sit) and Aus! (drop it).



I was going to just quote that and ](*,) but it was like watching some kind of grossly disfigured child emerging from the womb..."In Germany, police have replaced them with the more aggressive Malinois" YES, thanks media!!

I lose all faith when one must explain what K9 stands for. What kind of blind teenage groupie wrote this shit?? Please tell me it got lost in translation.


Edit: It gets better with revolutionary training techniques that are going to save pet owners everywhere just by letting the dog use their nose.

The last two segments of this article:

*Training Techniques* 
Working dogs like Rudy couldn't even win an honorable mention at dog shows, and yet every police officer would be happy to have a guard dog like Rudy at his side. Training these German Shepherds is time-consuming, and it takes strength and determination.


Curry doesn't do it alone. His business partner, Anthony Akers, is a member of the Marine Corps and spent several years in Afghanistan, during which he saw three friends die. Like many elite soldiers, he has a Shakespeare quotation tattooed on his forearm: "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war."


"Tony isn't afraid of anything," says Curry, which is why he has a special responsibility at the training facility -- to sharpen Rudy's instincts as a fighting machine. After a training session, Akers' arm is covered with bruises, despite the protective sleeve he wears. "Rudy could rip off your arm if you let him," says Akers.


For Akers, dog training isn't some militaristic macho game. The soldiers Akers saw die in Afghanistan were killed in attacks with explosives. The military dogs should have detected the bombs, he says. He and his mentor, Curry, are convinced that dog handlers often use the dogs incorrectly, with devastating consequences.


"They put the dogs on a leash, and the handler determines the direction. The dog would go in a different direction if he caught a scent, but when in doubt, of course he'll obey his handler," says Curry.


*Forgiving Nature* 
To address this problem, Curry has developed a training method that focuses entirely on the dogs' unique sniffing ability -- and dispenses with human handling altogether. He has built a course with small metal boxes installed at various heights. The German Shepherds are supposed to find a pistol that is hidden in one of the boxes, which could just as easily be used to hide marijuana or explosives.




A metal tube is mounted above each box. If a dog has sniffed out the right box, Curry, who is out of the dog's sight, presses the button on a remote control. The metal tube opens and a rubber ball -- the dog's reward -- drops out.

"It's important to divorce the handler from the reward. The dog has to learn to rely on itself," the trainer explains. But this goal has often been ignored in other training programs, says Curry. "Instead of following their instincts, what the animals learn is: 'I'll get something if I do my master a favor'."


According to Curry's philosophy, the human being is always the weak, and never the animal. "Nobody is a perfect dog trainer, everyone makes mistakes," he says. "The dog has to forgive me, so the forgiving nature of the German Shepherd by itself is enough."


_Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan_


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"A metal tube is mounted above each box. If a dog has sniffed out the right box, Curry, who is out of the dog's sight, presses the button on a remote control. The metal tube opens and a rubber ball -- the dog's reward -- drops out."


Ahhh yes, something old made new again. Ingenious I tell ya. 

DFrost


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I recently wrote an interview for Police K9 Magazine that will be forth coming with Mark Hilger a K9 officer in NRW region where the article on shepherds was written. I addressed the issue and much of it has to do with cost & longevity of the Malis vs the DSH. Mark is one of the few that buys dogs fo the police there also training SWAT dogs & works with other states. The show dog is an anethema to the breed because of the money involved in shows. He says they can't run for twenty minutes much less herd sheep all day. But the DSH will make a resurgence. Buy the magazine and read the articles ;-) my dogs aren't sport dogs either, if they won't bite civil they are gone. Koos Hassing of Tierkerhook has some words about the failure of judges in the breed. Try finding a local club or one that trains more than twice a week here in the USA. You can complain or write about stuff but it only helps to do the right thing for the breed. JMO!


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

What the article did not say is that you have to pay 3 thousand to 3500 dollars to get an 8 week old german shepherd puppy from Wayne. We had 2 in our club. One was the 1st pick male. Nice GSD but you cannot tell the difference between him and the one that comes out to next that cost less than half what he paid for his "Wayne" dog! We had his female litter mate in our club that had to be put down at 7 months due to sever hip issues. There is another litter mate sister lives up island from our club she is not a bad dog but not nice enough for that price.

In my humble opinion he is like most - full of Hype. How many pups in a GSD litter will work compared to that of a Mali? I seriously doubt that Waynes litters are any different. I have nothing against Wayne at all I am just saying I don't believe all the hype - Unfortunately like so many I have had my experiences with others who hype - you find out the hype isn't the reality of what you get. 

By the way I am not breed prejudice I own a GSD and a Dutchie.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

The whole basis for the article is flawed. There are LOTS of good working GSD's. Yes there has been a toll taken on them by the show and pet crowd. But which breed hasn't been affected negatively by the same thing. The biggest threat to the working GSD now is the mal or DS. Regarding the breeder and subject of the article. I don't know him nor have I had any dealings with him.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Brian u said pet n show, would u add sport? It would be the next biggest market and most breeders set up to feed demand.

not sure if gsd's in general are ever going to be as easy to find as top sport dogs nor should they.

not everyone wants a fizzy reactive dog. so not sure it's fair to compare, if mals drive down the price of good gsd's and stops overbreeding thats good.

all the probs with the gsd will happen with mals and any other breed once the puppy farmers get busy with them.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Brian u said pet n show, would u add sport? It would be the next biggest market and most breeders set up to feed demand.
> 
> not sure if gsd's in general are ever going to be as easy to find as top sport dogs nor should they.
> 
> ...


Pete I'd say that the sport enthusists are beneficial to maintaining the working characteristics of the GSD. Especially in some of the more advanced bite sports. They require a strong dog and good trainer to do well in. Not every Mal or DS bred is suitable for that kind of thing. But the sport dog community is relatively small compared to the numbers of dogs produced. As far as easy to find a good GSD. I can make a few phone calls and have a nice prospect. There is one thing we can't do and thats control what other grown people do. If a fad gets started and backyarders start breeding pretty blue dogs with sweet yellow dogs. They are headed south in a hurry. I have these boerboels out here and they are nice dogs. But for the most part they are pretty sad as a breed. The show crowd has seen to that. I see now there are more and more "breeders" popping up and its just going to make the problem worse. But there will always be a core group who's interest is to truly preserve the original or at least try to get as close as possible to it. Its a never ending debate really thats been going on for as long as I can remember.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

I believe Mr. Curry and author need to extract their heads from their asses. The methane fumes are beginning to affect their intelligence(what little there may be)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm just wondering if the number of good dogs ever really changes much the ratio of good to worthless does and IMO that makes the situation appear worse possibly???

Strangely as it gets easier to get inferior dogs their price increases???


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## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

Holy fanboy "journalism"...


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Charlotte Hince said:


> Holy fanboy "journalism"...


It's nice to know that it happens in other languages besides english.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

This article is pretty silly and self serving, but it did make the ABC news web site.

But there is a grain of truth here. There is virtually no show dog community or control by show dog people for the Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. In Belgium, the Malinois people broke off from the show organizations in 1963 to form the NVBK. The KNPV is separate from the breed clubs.

The SV in Germany is every bit as much a show dog club as is the AKC in America, and the problems are the same. Go to the SV web site, and look around. On the front page you have a herding picture, probably a show dog scared to death of the sheep, some of the rally dogs, some obedience dogs, some show dog photos. Very difficult to find a picture of a dog with a sleeve or the mention of IPO or Schutzhund.

SV puppy registrations have dropped from 30,000 per year to 15,000 per year and the SV and their bureaucrats are in panic mode. They are throwing the real German shepherd, the police style dog, under the bus in a desperate attempt to prop up silly price puppy sales of show line crap.

There are a lot of great German Shepherds out there, but they are increasingly outside of Germany and outside of the WUSV community.

In America USCA, the United SCHUTZHUND Clubs of America is now primarily run by and for the benefit of the SV show dog breeders, and is increasingly a show dog organization. Not good for those who believe in real German Shepherds.

Yes, the article is greatly exaggerated and mostly nonsense, but the German Shepherd as a breed is in desperate danger from the enemy within, the SV and the American organizations increasingly under SV control.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Does this mean that Helmut Raiser's organization, the RSV2000, is the GSD's last organised chance at not becoming the next Lassie dog?

I hear from people overseas that the RSV2000 has been growing quite well in the last couple of months.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Gerald Guay said:


> Does this mean that Helmut Raiser's organization, the RSV2000, is the GSD's last organised chance at not becoming the next Lassie dog?
> 
> I hear from people overseas that the RSV2000 has been growing quite well in the last couple of months.



I admire and respect Dr. Raiser and hope that his organization prospers.

By throwing him under the bus, the SV pretty much showed what they are made of, what their real values are.

But there are a great many breeders and trainers, many outside of Germany, who continue to produce excellent German Shepherds; the breed is not in imminent danger.

But the problem is that the SV is pussifying the image on purpose in order to sell pets, and in order to blur the distinction between their candy ass show dogs and real German Shepherds.

To an outsider, to the general public, the SV is after all the organization of von Stephanitz, the mother club in the mother land and if the SV projects the candy ass image hard enough and long enough that is going to stick in the public perception.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

The concern/argument about the "demise" of the GSD is years old and will never go away. The finger is pointed at one organization or another as to who's to blame. The finger is pointed at "back yard breeders". The finger is pointed at vendors, accusing them of just breeding dogs to make a buck. I've heard people blame puppymills and the "pet" crowd and the show crowd. Here's where I get somewhat baffled. I've never been to a dog show. I don't personally know anyone who owns a GSD as strictly a pet. Nothing against them, we just don't run in the same circles. I go to a working dog club to train and attend trials when I can. So, why is it that I see so many GSD's that are so unimpressive? I've asked myself that queston a million times: Why do I see so many GSD's that, IMO, are shitty and owned by working dog people and working dog breeders?

I'm not talking about newbies here either. I'm talking about people who've been training and breeding for awhile. The working dog community does contribute to some of the GSD's issues as well. We've all seen people buy dogs based on pedigree alone. We've all seen working breeders breed a dog that's marginal in one trait because it's strong in another. Or spend thousands on a stud and breed it to a mediocre bitch. 

Maybe my standards are just too high. Maybe I'm just too naive and think everyone's honest with themselves about what their dogs truly are. With all that said I do know that there are breeders out there that do breed what the GSD should be. But I don't think that those are the majority.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> Or spend thousands on a stud and breed it to a mediocre bitch


 I've seen these breedings listed right here for sale in the classifieds:-\"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> I've seen these breedings listed right here for sale in the classifieds:-\"


which ones?


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I forgot, maybe you can help me:-k


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> I forgot, maybe you can help me:-k


I am not familar, personally, with any of the GSD dams currently listed in the classifieds..thought maybe you were..


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## Richard Ramirez (Sep 6, 2011)

I'd be very interested in reading your interview,Steve! There are more very good males here in this country than females in my opinion.And, there are some people here in this country that produce very good dogs.I believe that there are enough people with the knowledge of breeding to keep the GSD what it is meant to be. Also, I never realized that the RSV2000 was an organization. I've seen it on working-dog.eu. Keep us posted on what's going on out your way.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I am not familar, personally, with any of the GSD dams currently listed in the classifieds..thought maybe you were..


Neither am I


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> Or spend thousands on a stud and breed it to a mediocre bitch.
> .


This is not a german shepherd thing. It happens in all breeds. I think this also happens alot more often than some people realize. Alot of people put an emphasis how great the stud is and the female is just there to carry the pups


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> The concern/argument about the "demise" of the GSD is years old and will never go away. The finger is pointed at one organization or another as to who's to blame. The finger is pointed at "back yard breeders". The finger is pointed at vendors, accusing them of just breeding dogs to make a buck. I've heard people blame puppymills and the "pet" crowd and the show crowd. Here's where I get somewhat baffled. I've never been to a dog show. I don't personally know anyone who owns a GSD as strictly a pet. Nothing against them, we just don't run in the same circles. I go to a working dog club to train and attend trials when I can. So, why is it that I see so many GSD's that are so unimpressive? I've asked myself that queston a million times: Why do I see so many GSD's that, IMO, are shitty and owned by working dog people and working dog breeders?
> 
> I'm not talking about newbies here either. I'm talking about people who've been training and breeding for awhile. The working dog community does contribute to some of the GSD's issues as well. We've all seen people buy dogs based on pedigree alone. We've all seen working breeders breed a dog that's marginal in one trait because it's strong in another. Or spend thousands on a stud and breed it to a mediocre bitch.
> 
> Maybe my standards are just too high. Maybe I'm just too naive and think everyone's honest with themselves about what their dogs truly are. With all that said I do know that there are breeders out there that do breed what the GSD should be. But I don't think that those are the majority.


I think you're right. I rarely see "pet" GSDs. The SV or AKC aren't the only ones registering/promoting GSDs. There is a working community outside of both. What is it producing? I think its all become too much about registries, competition and money. As long as you cater to the working competitions that are controlled by registries, you are going to have the same issues. Personally, I say look to the breeders. They control what's out there and its quality. There are people out there that are interested in working venues but the expense and health issues toss them in the direction of mals. We have a local dog training school that doesn't get too many GSDs for their students because a working GSD with sound health is too hard to come by or a student doesn't have the thousands it can cost to buy one. Its all about imported this and imported that and a hefty price tag. Pimp the pedigree when sire and dam aren't even worked. We need working venues that aren't based on pedigrees/registrations that people will support. 

Terrasita


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think you're right. I rarely see "pet" GSDs.


We must run in different circles  I see "pet" GSD all the time, walking down the street with their owners, showing up at the obedience class for their basic/CGC classes, etc. I see a lot of show and working dogs also, but I'd say 50% of the GSD I see are what I'd consider pet dogs from a BYB type of breeding vs dogs specifically bred for show or work, from pedigrees full of dogs who have been successful in the intended venue.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> This article is pretty silly and self serving, but it did make the ABC news web site.
> 
> But there is a grain of truth here. There is virtually no show dog community or control by show dog people for the Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. In Belgium, the Malinois people broke off from the show organizations in 1963 to form the NVBK. The KNPV is separate from the breed clubs.
> 
> ...


I been trying not to comment on here, but sometimes I need to. First let me say this is one of the more worth reading qoutes on a thread in awhile Jim:-D.

Secondly your right the NVBK and the KNPV protect the mal and dutchie in their countries just like the SV has try to protect their loved breed. But make no mistake you will see the mal and dutchie eventually head down the same road here in the USA like the GSD many years ago. Folks here don't give a shit about breeds they just care about the color GREEN.](*,)

We have some big time breeders here that just throw litters out back to back or in spurts throughout the year and sell to anybody who has a dollar to pay for one. Theres already crappy breedings being done by others that want to try and dabble for the sake of a few extra bucks and crap being produced and it grows up and bred to other crap or a decent male in the hopes of fixing the crap that should not of been bred in the first place. I am not a breed warden so I cant vouch for every breeding done but some are obviously scary:-\" You don't believe check the forums and check the multi-sites that you can list on with Christmas around the corner you'll see.

On a lighter note once again Jim nice job on calling it as it is and where it seems to be heading.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> This is not a german shepherd thing. It happens in all breeds. I think this also happens alot more often than some people realize. Alot of people put an emphasis how great the stud is and the female is just there to carry the pups


=D>AMEN=D>, I just got done typing this myself in so many words.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> We must run in different circles  I see "pet" GSD all the time, walking down the street with their owners, showing up at the obedience class for their basic/CGC classes, etc. I see a lot of show and working dogs also, but I'd say 50% of the GSD I see are what I'd consider pet dogs from a BYB type of breeding vs dogs specifically bred for show or work, from pedigrees full of dogs who have been successful in the intended venue.


I would even venture to say that Kadi is being more than way over generous with giving it a 50% split, where we all know that number on the pet side climbs way way higher than that in ratio to the good GSD out there that are being intended for their usage of the ancestry. In saying that I am a fan of a GOOD solid working GSD just for the record of all that think I dont appreciate the breed.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

I know that my comment about people buying an expensive stud and breeding it to mediocre bitches doesn't just apply to the GSD. But that is one of the issues with the working quality of the GSD. I also agree with Harry that WAY more than 50% of GSD's are in pet homes. I just don't see them as often because of the dog people I'm actually around. Maybe I don't get out enough LOL. But it's the WORKING dog folks complaining about the issues with the breed, not the pet folks. I would venture to say that most of us have heard more than one GSD breeder say something like this: "I bred a litter once that was really HOT, but I ended up with people wanting to bring them back because the dogs were too aggressive or handler hard, etc. I won't do that again. I don't make any money if the dogs are coming back and I can't keep them all." So, John Q. Breeder dumbs down the next litter so he/ she can move them. Here's a thought: most "working" dog breeders don't exclusively breed for their income. How about not breeding 10 litters a year and try doing one or two and breed what these dogs are supposed to be? Then try being a little choosier about who you're selling to. I LOVE a great working GSD. I have since I was a kid. I know they're out there. But I for one am not going to pay the ungodly prices that are typically attached to them just because they have Timmy or Troll or, lately, Javir, on a piece of paper. For now, I'll stick with the mals/dutchies.

Harry is right; with the growing popularity of the malis, the odds are great that the breed will head down the same road. I say it all the time: if you want to !#$% up a great breed, bring it to the States and give us 10 years. I'm already seeing litters of crap malis being bred because most people just can't handle what these dogs should be; everyone wants a "real" dog until they get one. IMO, breeders have to step it up. Quit paying attention to a piece of paper and breed QUALITY bitches. Call a spade a spade; if the dog can't produce don't breed it, regardless of whether or not it was a world competitor or a brother to so and so. And for Pete's sake, quit worrying about getting rich from it. But I don't see that happening any time soon.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> I know that my comment about people buying an expensive stud and breeding it to mediocre bitches doesn't just apply to the GSD. But that is one of the issues with the working quality of the GSD. I also agree with Harry that WAY more than 50% of GSD's are in pet homes. I just don't see them as often because of the dog people I'm actually around. Maybe I don't get out enough LOL. But it's the WORKING dog folks complaining about the issues with the breed, not the pet folks. I would venture to say that most of us have heard more than one GSD breeder say something like this: "I bred a litter once that was really HOT, but I ended up with people wanting to bring them back because the dogs were too aggressive or handler hard, etc. I won't do that again. I don't make any money if the dogs are coming back and I can't keep them all." So, John Q. Breeder dumbs down the next litter so he/ she can move them. Here's a thought: most "working" dog breeders don't exclusively breed for their income. How about not breeding 10 litters a year and try doing one or two and breed what these dogs are supposed to be? Then try being a little choosier about who you're selling to. I LOVE a great working GSD. I have since I was a kid. I know they're out there. But I for one am not going to pay the ungodly prices that are typically attached to them just because they have Timmy or Troll or, lately, Javir, on a piece of paper. For now, I'll stick with the mals/dutchies.
> 
> Harry is right; with the growing popularity of the malis, the odds are great that the breed will head down the same road. I say it all the time: if you want to !#$% up a great breed, bring it to the States and give us 10 years. I'm already seeing litters of crap malis being bred because most people just can't handle what these dogs should be; everyone wants a "real" dog until they get one. IMO, breeders have to step it up. Quit paying attention to a piece of paper and breed QUALITY bitches. Call a spade a spade; if the dog can't produce don't breed it, regardless of whether or not it was a world competitor or a brother to so and so. And for Pete's sake, quit worrying about getting rich from it. But I don't see that happening any time soon.


 Not directed at you Adam : Thats another big problem, is assuming the dog is good because its a brother or sister or half litter mate or littermate to the well known so and so or came from world competitor of so and so. Well thats great for the people that have those dogs, but guess what you DON'T, not saying that genetics dont play a huge part, I am heavy and Hot into genetics but I also look at each dog as a INDIVIDUAL. If we had more people see it that way then oh I have my nose up in the air because I have so and so thats related to so and so, I believe the mal and DS might stand a better chance or hold on longer than there competitor breed the GSD. Of course you got to start somewhere and that somewhere is a pup of so and so out of good genetics of your choice, which I agree with 150%. But dont tell people that the dog at 8 weeks or even 6 months old is going to be a police dog or MWD or world competitor and guarantee that for god sakes, I cant help but smile and say to myself what a jerk off I am talking to when I hear those accusations. Anyways everybody is entitled to their own opinions and that is mine.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> I would even venture to say that Kadi is being more than way over generous with giving it a 50% split, where we all know that number on the pet side climbs way way higher than that in ratio to the good GSD out there that are being intended for their usage of the ancestry.


I am, I know that way more than 50% of the population are pet/BYB type dogs. But since I am around dogs for Schutzhund, police, personal protection, etc and generally don't go to places like the local dog park, my percentages of actual hands/eyes on is pretty conservative. 

The GSD was #2 in registration numbers with AKC last year. Last time they released actual numbers, now they just release rankings, the GSDs were around 50,000 per year for registrations. That's 50,000 pups per year, and that's only the AKC ones, doesn't count ones that aren't registered, or are registered with UKC, SV, CKC, WWKC, etc. By comparison Malinois registrations were around 1000 that same year.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kadi, my observations are for where I live and what I see at the local obedience shows, etc. You see a sprinkling of GSDs and the same people have had them for 25 years. Rarely do I see GSDs walking down the street as pets. One problem I see is that we dont get new people involved in working/performance. Its the same ol, same ol. Adam/Harry are correct in the money aspect. There's a lot of pimping working pedigrees. Parents don't work or are titled. No health certifications that are worth anything and its a $1000-$2000 puppy because of the 2nd to 4th generation pedigree; or, its an imported litter. It costs soooo much money to acquire the dog and then add the club/travel costs, its no wonder that the working venues are stagnate. To establish a line, it can take a lot of breeding and therefore money. But the dog world has gotten away from how Germany started with the club/training and dogs a way of life tradition. Now its more about puppy sales.

Terrasita


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I am, I know that way more than 50% of the population are pet/BYB type dogs. But since I am around dogs for Schutzhund, police, personal protection, etc and generally don't go to places like the local dog park, my percentages of actual hands/eyes on is pretty conservative.
> 
> The GSD was #2 in registration numbers with AKC last year. Last time they released actual numbers, now they just release rankings, the GSDs were around 50,000 per year for registrations. That's 50,000 pups per year, and that's only the AKC ones, doesn't count ones that aren't registered, or are registered with UKC, SV, CKC, WWKC, etc. By comparison Malinois registrations were around 1000 that same year.


Oh I know, we 've talked and I know you are a working dog lady through and through. I was just letting folks know the you were being a generous lady.;-)

Thos numbers are completely sickening:-&, I would venture to guess and this is just a guess that maybe on the high high end being generous maybe 5000 of that is working and thats being generous in my eyes. God please I hope that mali / DS never see those kinds of numbers here in the USA.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Oh I know, we 've talked and I know you are a working dog lady through and through. I was just letting folks know the you were being a generous lady.;-)
> 
> Thos numbers are completely sickening:-&, I would venture to guess and this is just a guess that maybe on the high high end being generous maybe 5000 of that is working and thats being generous in my eyes. God please I hope that mali / DS never see those kinds of numbers here in the USA.


Harry I think the DS and MAL are different in that their numbers arent there and they are not typically your cuddly couch buddy type dog. But brother that might be wishful thinking on my part. The US hasn't seen a breed of dogs they won't ruin. Sad to say that but it is the truth.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I would be more worried about the' bandogge' community getting interested in the mals.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Harry I think the DS and MAL are different in that their numbers arent there and they are not typically your cuddly couch buddy type dog. But brother that might be wishful thinking on my part. The US hasn't seen a breed of dogs they won't ruin. Sad to say that but it is the truth.


Your right the numbers arent there, and before 9/11 people were like what the F is that, now since then and over the last years especially they have come on more hot and heavy then ever, and its not slowing down, I get nosey and pop on differeing web pages like the pedigree database, the forums, Facebook, next day pets, puppyfind, stud dogs and some others, google and I see these people with fancy websites and all, so human nature I pick up a phone and call, when I hang up the phone all they have is exactly that a fancy website. its been some years since I have done that but now I can almost pick them off like a sniper picking off his target and I just stay away and avoid them. But believe me its moving in the wrong direction slowly. All we can hope for is that the DS / MAL dies off with popularity unlike the ever so famous GSD.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

The numbers in reference to the Mal's/DS are not there YET....A year ago, I rarely if ever saw a Malinois in this neck of the woods. The last couple of days I've seen 4 - owned by "pet people". And someone around here is breeding the "special and rare Black Malinois". After talking to them for a bit I asked what led them to the Malinois - all 4 replied along the lines of "this is the breed of dog that went with SEAL Team 6". Out of the 4 I can almost guarantee 3 of them will breed their dogs. I liked it alot better when most pet people had no clue what a Malinois was and would ask me if my PSD's or personally owned Malinois' were a mix between a coyote and shepherd Of course I replied - yup

As for the GSD - I never thought after working and owning more then a few Malinois over the years that I would ever go back to the GSD.....but I have.... and would not trade my current female GSD for any other breed right now. She can hang with any Malinois or DS


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Interesting Lacey can you post a link of a pedigree im always interested in GSD with those traits.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Not directed at you Adam : Thats another big problem, is assuming the dog is good because its a brother or sister or half litter mate or littermate to the well known so and so or came from world competitor of so and so. Well thats great for the people that have those dogs, but guess what you DON'T, not saying that genetics dont play a huge part, I am heavy and Hot into genetics but I also look at each dog as a INDIVIDUAL. If we had more people see it that way then oh I have my nose up in the air because I have so and so thats related to so and so, I believe the mal and DS might stand a better chance or hold on longer than there competitor breed the GSD. Of course you got to start somewhere and that somewhere is a pup of so and so out of good genetics of your choice, which I agree with 150%. But dont tell people that the dog at 8 weeks or even 6 months old is going to be a police dog or MWD or world competitor and guarantee that for god sakes, I cant help but smile and say to myself what a jerk off I am talking to when I hear those accusations. Anyways everybody is entitled to their own opinions and that is mine.


I'm with ya, Harry. I get so sick of hearing that shit. "This dog's mother was the half littermate to Fritz vom Shitzalotofgold, who was on the All Universe Team, so we're sure he'll produce eventhough he's only got one nut, his hips are marginal, and he pisses himself when he hears the word boo." I can literally count on one hand the breeders I know who can handle what, IMO, they should be breeding. You have to breed the extreme dogs to get above average offspring if you hope to TRULY better the breed. I have personally owned genetically loaded dogs that, individually, weren't anything to write home about. But I was honest with myself about what they were. Here's another thing: IMO, the Dutch breeders, by and large, have it figured out. They are so in tune with what lines produce what that they know what each litter will give them before the dogs start sniffing each other. They have line breeding down to a science. So do what few "old school" German GSD breeders are left. Here's my question: If the people who have been doing this for literally generations have shown that their thought processes, methods, and types of breeding stock are successful, why in the hell would a breeder want to go away from what has worked for decades? I've got my own answer to this, I'm just curious as to what the feedback will be.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Too easy, bigger market for pets.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Lacey Vessell said:


> After talking to them for a bit I asked what led them to the Malinois - all 4 replied along the lines of "this is the breed of dog that went with SEAL Team 6".


And this will be the beginning of the end. I wish the Navy had just lied and said it was a beagle.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Lacey Vessell said:


> The numbers in reference to the Mal's/DS are not there YET....A year ago, I rarely if ever saw a Malinois in this neck of the woods. The last couple of days I've seen 4 - owned by "pet people". And someone around here is breeding the "special and rare Black Malinois". After talking to them for a bit I asked what led them to the Malinois - all 4 replied along the lines of "this is the breed of dog that went with SEAL Team 6". Out of the 4 I can almost guarantee 3 of them will breed their dogs. I liked it alot better when most pet people had no clue what a Malinois was and would ask me if my PSD's or personally owned Malinois' were a mix between a coyote and shepherd Of course I replied - yup
> 
> As for the GSD - I never thought after working and owning more then a few Malinois over the years that I would ever go back to the GSD.....but I have.... and would not trade my current female GSD for any other breed right now. She can hang with any Malinois or DS


Yea well I been waiting for a conversation or thanks to the dam media exploiting the seals and the seal dog and announcing the breed wheter it would impact in any way and form and I'm sure it is more than we all know. I think the media and the normal civilian class of people should forget the mali / DS and go chase another breed, and they should honor the seal teams but leave them to what they do best. I mean seal team 6 has been secret for how many decades and thanks to the media they are no longer the quiet perfectionist team that protects us all no thanks to the media.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> And this will be the beginning of the end. I wish the Navy had just lied and said it was a beagle.


:lol::lol::lol: What ya reading my mind, you know the old saying great minds think alike8)


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> :lol::lol::lol: What ya reading my mind, you know the old saying great minds think alike8)


 LOL, that's what I hear. You and I being on the same wave length isn't going to tarnish my rep is it?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> I'm with ya, Harry. I get so sick of hearing that shit. "This dog's mother was the half littermate to Fritz vom Shitzalotofgold, who was on the All Universe Team, so we're sure he'll produce eventhough he's only got one nut, his hips are marginal, and he pisses himself when he hears the word boo." I can literally count on one hand the breeders I know who can handle what, IMO, they should be breeding. You have to breed the extreme dogs to get above average offspring if you hope to TRULY better the breed. I have personally owned genetically loaded dogs that, individually, weren't anything to write home about. But I was honest with myself about what they were. Here's another thing: IMO, the Dutch breeders, by and large, have it figured out. They are so in tune with what lines produce what that they know what each litter will give them before the dogs start sniffing each other. They have line breeding down to a science. So do what few "old school" German GSD breeders are left. Here's my question: If the people who have been doing this for literally generations have shown that their thought processes, methods, and types of breeding stock are successful, why in the hell would a breeder want to go away from what has worked for decades? I've got my own answer to this, I'm just curious as to what the feedback will be.


 
Yea but you breed extreme to get above average ( with I agree with 150% ), but then you need to finish the steps taken, and do the right thing and put them in the right secure homes, because u get to many people that want these hard dogs and cant handle them. Then they end up in rescue, shelters or even worse killed off for being above average. Your right the dutch do have it down and there good at it too, I just hope that they continue to sell to folks like me and not throw us all in one equation of jerk offs that are ruining there beloved dogs.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> LOL, that's what I hear. You and I being on the same wave length isn't going to tarnish my rep is it?


You were done when you said you agree with me in a earlier post:lol:, dont worry though theres actually alot of pm's and emails that i get of people that agree and ask for thoughts of this mad mind HAHA, also when people actually meet me and we train they see I'm alright just more so passionate, only have a small group of public haters to my knowledge but who doesnt , at least I cant be knocked for honesty and shooting you straight, The other good thing is when you walk away from me you make it to where ya going with no worry of a flying knife HAHAHA, so i would venture to say your safe, although if you do get a email,pm or phone call I would love to hear about it.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Yea but you breed extreme to get above average ( with I agree with 150% ), but then you need to finish the steps taken, and do the right thing and put them in the right secure homes, because u get to many people that want these hard dogs and cant handle them. Then they end up in rescue, shelters or even worse killed off for being above average. Your right the dutch do have it down and there good at it too, I just hope that they continue to sell to folks like me and not throw us all in one equation of jerk offs that are ruining there beloved dogs.


 Absolutey right, and I should have pointed that out in my post. I guess I thought that was an understood thing (going to the right homes). I guess if I can't get a good Dutch bred dog one day, I'll have to start training the bad ass honey badgers.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> You were done when you said you agree with me in a earlier post:lol:, dont worry though theres actually alot of pm's and emails that i get of people that agree and ask for thoughts of this mad mind HAHA, also when people actually meet me and we train they see I'm alright just more so passionate, only have a small group of public haters to my knowledge but who doesnt , at least I cant be knocked for honesty and shooting you straight, The other good thing is when you walk away from me you make it to where ya going with no worry of a flying knife HAHAHA, so i would venture to say your safe, although if you do get a email,pm or phone call I would love to hear about it.


LOL, I'll definitely let you know if I do.I mean, I've already soiled my rep so might as well jump in to my neck.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> Absolutey right, and I should have pointed that out in my post. I guess I thought that was an understood thing (going to the right homes). I guess if I can't get a good Dutch bred dog one day, I'll have to start training the bad ass honey badgers.


Yes most understand it, but dont take it for granted because there are alot out there that will jump all over the green stuff and not think twice about it hoping that the phone never rings and if it does they are thinking on how to flip the dog again on others misfortune, where they should be just thinking of another good place to be putting it wheter theres green involved or not. Trust me there out there, ones that you think wouldnt do it probally are the ones that would. Dog people are the wierdest folks on this earth to offer:lol:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> LOL, I'll definitely let you know if I do.I mean, I've already soiled my rep so might as well jump in to my neck.


Thats right:lol:, you should be alright its just a forum of many opinions.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I doubt that the military actually said the dog was a malinois, i bet cnn and their cohorts just made that up to make stories just like they are concentrationg on bangkok in this thailand flood issue. I live in bangkok and i didn't have to leave my apartment until 2 weeks ago.
That aside those who want a hard highly driven GSD know where to go and those interested in less drivey GSDs know where to go. The British police are a good example, they use a lot of show line GSDs, even females because they don't want 'SAVAGE' dogs. These kinds of attitudes create a market for these mediocre german shepherds. IMO breedings between showline and working line GSDs are as common as GSD-malinois breedings.
Even as an avid GSD lover i must say that a lot of so-called working breeders have goals that are detriemental to the GSD breed, people breed dogs just for SAR, pet, etc a lot of really dumb stuff. The malinois on the other hand appeals to people that want extreme dogs and those people continue to breed the best to the best.
I dare say that if the GSD show line people start to breed malinois, in a few years their lines would be of much less quality than their original stock.
Germany is not the heaven for police dogs, if they don't fancy the gsd again, it is their business. Czech republic, denmark, switzerland etc still use these dogs for police and military work, the US military has german shepherds and malinois alike working in afghanistan.
I know the OP (Christopher) doesn't believe there are very good working gsds and he's posted the article to share his idea but truth is if the gsd is really that bad we won't be seeing them still working in S.W.A.T, patrol, etc. If you want a good GSD go for a breeder that isn't just a pedigree or title freak, go and look at the actual dogs. IPO in my opinion cannot save the breed, breeders have to judge the dog's overall temperament. I posted the video of a dog some days ago that got a good score in its VPG test but went behind the handler in civil agitation, we don't need dogs like that in the GSD gene pool.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I mentioned creating a VPG like test in a previous post but many people didn't see the use. I don't believe the GSD was created to be as 'hyper' as many malinois appear but a more important issue is nerve and health. Dogs that won't bite on slick floors, new decoys, run away from strange objects etc. 
In the end all this is just a discussion. The lazy breeders will use average dogs as studs and breed them to their nervy bitches. Doesn't stop the police kennels in the czech republic or k9 officers who are also breeders from breeding hard police type GSDs. 
Lastly i think breeders and people alike should pay less 'homage' to the SV. All this pure-bred obsession has no positive results. I think PSA and other 'bite-suit' sports have a better contribution in selecting breeding dogs. I doubt the SV hip evaluation and other health tests don't have alternatives. In the end it lies in the hands of breeders.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Lame article. Also, I´m not so concerned if the germans have problems with their GSDs, germany are not the only place who breeds working GSDs and using them for service. People live different lives today so no wonder there are less demand and breeders of working GSDs today compared to the heydays of the 1960-1980 when the GSD was registred in great numbers each year. 

If the germans only pay 2000 euro for a policedog I guess there are many breeders that rather sell the good dogs to civilans. So I wonder if it´s only a factor of less good GSDs availabe. Don´t think the GSD need to be "saved" yet when it´s still the most common policedog in many countries.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Erik Berg said:


> Lame article. Also, I´m not so concerned if the germans have problems with their GSDs, germany are not the only place who breeds working GSDs and using them for service. People live different lives today so no wonder there are less demand and breeders of working GSDs today compared to the heydays of the 1960-1980 when the GSD was registred in great numbers each year.
> 
> If the germans only pay 2000 euro for a policedog I guess there are many breeders that rather sell the good dogs to civilans. So I wonder if it´s only a factor of less good GSDs availabe. Don´t think the GSD need to be "saved" yet when it´s still the most common policedog in many countries.


Thanks for echoeing my thoughts. I think the czech republic and slovakia on the average breed more police type GSDs than germany or any country for that matter.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This article was published in Spiegel Online Germany

and for whatever reason it has been translated so that the English speaking population can have their say.

I am well aware that the Malinois has its nose in front sport and police dog wise.

What I cannot understand is that the majority of people publishing this article are owners of other breeds, mostly Malinois. 

What on earth tempts these handlers who have the upper hand in the canine sport and police dog world to circulate such articles?

Are they formerly thwarted GSD handlers? Are they secretly thwarted Malinois handlers and hope by such methods to push the GSD breeders into breeding better GSDs?

Whatever the reasons, I find it repulsive. I had the choice of GSD, Malinois or Giant Schnauzer and I chose the GSD and have not regretted it.

Tobi suggested changing the temperament test, if I'm right. Why? RSV 2000 has a completely new method of testing the GSDs from puppy to adult, irrespective of the SV. 

One just has to read it for oneself, or ask questions but seemingly you know it all over the pond in whichever direction.

A few of you on this forum, over the pond, are members of the RSV 2000, so please excuse my tirade.

Those of you who are not illiterate, I would suggest you read or ask questions instead of damning a breed just for the sake of it.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

"Like many elite soldiers, he has a Shakespeare quotation tattooed on his forearm"


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

My suggestion to change the breed tests stems from the fact that IPO style tests of any kind rarely test a dog's nerves.
The korung IMO is a much tougher test that will weed out more of the weak individuals. I posted a video sometime ago of a dog that did well in a VPG test but showed avoidance in civil agitation. I think breeders are the ones still making the breed what it is, not IPO tests, some breeders still look for aggression and other important traits, not all breeders are title freaks so to speak.

Not a big fan of malinois but in this video you can see a very strong dog A'Tim, being tested roughly IMO. Even though the kicking in the first part of the video was a bit extreme i like the idea of a test with random scenarios that tests a dog's nerves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-emBLEj9Ow8

I also wish there were more breeders competing in ringsports and KNPV. All in all , the GSD is not dead, Czech republic, slovakia and france are still breeding some tough police dogs.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ol. you obviously love the breed, dont sweat it man. the people seeing the inferior dogs are just talkin to the wrong breeders, that includes the OP'er.

good gsd's will still be around long after we're not.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The RSV 2000 doesn't rely on the IPO as a test at all. They test their young dogs before the dog is of an age permissible to enter an IPO trial and environmental sureness is part of it.

BTW a test is only as good as the people evaluating it are qualified to read dogs, whatever the breed.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Tobi, on the other hand all sports are limited in what they test, IPO just like ringsport or KNPV. Policedogs and dogs being tested outside IPO is not a rarity in GSD breedings that don´t follow the german system. 

Gilian, what exactly is the test RSV 2000 using, I know there are different parts for younger dogs and so on, but what I´ve seen it looks like similar to the old breedsurvey, at least their körung, what is the enviromental test you talk about? I haven´t found an explanation on their website what their testing consist of, at least not in english.

RSV 2000 may be good for germany, but the GSD outside germany have been breed for other sports and tests long time and seems to do just fine with what they have. So I don´t see RSV 2000 so special and saviour of the breed, if it is in a state it needs to be saved that is


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

I'm not so negative regarding the efforts been made by the RSV2000. Cheers to anyone or any group trying to go in the right direction. 

Their tests are called 'sichtung" and you can find them for every dog approved for breeding. Here is a list of the males approved so far:
www.rsv2000.de/de/198/Deckrueden.html?sid=14xVBjmV.Tug6
by going to this page you can then click on the "sichtung" for every dog listed so far.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey Gerald I'm a member of RSV2000 but I'm completely lost on the website. Can you tell me where I can find the description of the Breed Survey tests? I can use google to translate if I can at least find the right page!!!!


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi Susan,

There is a lot of stuff under "Downloads" but I have not seen any "criteria". It must be somewhere. I don't speak German either so that makes searching their site difficult. Do you know if they have a rep here in America?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

No, they don't. Whenever I have questions, they are answered by Gabby Raiser, but I don't like to bother them. I'm hoping Gillian will respond to this thread again because she is graciously helpful and I'm MUCH more comfortable pestering her!!!!!
:-D


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Susan, you can pester me all you like. Obviously RSV 2000 isn't going to be able to wave a magical wand and "lo and behold the GSD will stand there as Canine Working Dog No. 1". The breeders are the ones who can change things. There are lazy breeders who just fulfill the minimum requirements of the SV and those who really want to produce solid working dogs for sport and police work. I guess there are such breeders in both camps.

I honestly thought that I had seen something about environmental issues.

There are about 16 evaluation pages on Sichtung or Kür 1, 2 or 3 and environmental soundness is evaluated.

As for environmental issues - does a dog have to be tested in a separate environment for this. The Molosser Club here wanted to start up a test at the train station, i.e. noises, people, etc. Just imagine, one dog would have the fast train, one would be confronted with a slow train, some with few people, some with rush hour. My husband was President then and introduced something similar to the SV test - nothing spectacular - but even the gunshot test was horrifying to them.

I have 2 GSDs. The elder is environmentally correct with limitations that I saw as a pup. He would act aggressively but with control this is not a problem but I wouldn't breed from him although his working abilities are exceptionally good. He hasn't been tested. He doesn't come up to my expectations outside of work.

The younger one was "what does the world cost, I'll buy it" from the start. However, no one can take liberties with him. I like this in a dog. A friendly dog but still his own master.

A good breeder or dog handler can test a pup for environmental issues very easily. 

I'll see what I can do. Maybe those attending the Raiser Seminar can ask questions???


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