# Some fantastic decoy work here.



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

He musta cost that dog at least 10-12m ! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icl9ZfD1q3o&feature=related


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Thanks for the video, Geoff. Impressives esquives!  

Are the decoys allowed to get both feet off the ground like that in a FR trial?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> Are the decoys allowed to get both feet off the ground like that in a FR trial?


Brevets and Level 1 the work is a lot less intense, though as you get to Level 2 and 3 it gets more and more difficult for the dog. Herve Scooped the dog at first you see with his left hand those types of moves don't happen until Level 2. The dog didn't get a lot of foundation on the arm and he got caught. A quick dog with good arm foundation probably whould've nailed him in the wrist or bicep. 

At level 2-3 the decoy gets a lot more leeway and looks for holes in the dogs training that he can optimize to his/her advantage. So that is where the difference of a strong bite work foundation comes into play. Lot's of line work with different presentations both leg/arm and upperbody/etc.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Brevets and Level 1 the work is a lot less intense, though as you get to Level 2 and 3 it gets more and more difficult for the dog. Herve Scooped the dog at first you see with his left hand those types of moves don't happen until Level 2. The dog didn't get a lot of foundation on the arm and he got caught. A quick dog with good arm foundation probably whould've nailed him in the wrist or bicep.
> 
> At level 2-3 the decoy gets a lot more leeway and looks for holes in the dogs training that he can optimize to his/her advantage. So that is where the difference of a strong bite work foundation comes into play. Lot's of line work with different presentations both leg/arm and upperbody/etc.


 
You didn't answer the question. LOL


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> You didn't answer the question. LOL


Your the decoy Kyle! LOL! According to http://www.ringsport.org/decoyguidebook.htm I didn't see nothing mentioned.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Your the decoy Kyle! LOL! According to http://www.ringsport.org/decoyguidebook.htm I didn't see nothing mentioned.


I am not a "decoy" in this context.

"The goal of the exercise is to measure the vigilance of the dog and not his biting."

I am pretty sure that move is not allowed for safety reasons. Not everything can be put in a rule book when you are dealing with athletes with great talent.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> That was an awesome escape!!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I am not a "decoy" in this context.
> 
> "The goal of the exercise is to measure the vigilance of the dog and not his biting."
> 
> I am pretty sure that move is not allowed for safety reasons. Not everything can be put in a rule book when you are dealing with athletes with great talent.


I know they don't allow the FR decoys to jump on flee attacks. I saw a video with Patrice Foucault the owner of Top Gun when he was decoying the French Cup in the 80's off of Chienplus and some of the stuff that they pulled off was insane. They would jump and hope the dog went underneath! :-o Looks like lots of guys got injured though. I'll ask my training director as he would know if that move is legal or not because I just don't know. Give me a few days.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"Looks like lots of guys got injured though."

I am more worried about the dogs. There is language in the rules that talks about the fact that the decoy is protected by equipment etc....

When I was in Colorado last year and spent a week training with Domique Pitton (sp) he talked a lot about fiarness in decoy work. Even went so far as to say he has told guys in his club in the past that if they try different things they Can do it Next Time with NO equipment and see how they like it.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I understand what you are saying but all the bite equipment in the world is not going to protect your knee or ankle from being blown out by a 65lb+ Malinois at Full clip if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. My little 48lb Bitch has tweaked both of our club decoys during training luckily with no lasting damage. [-o< I'm always worried about her too, she took down one of the guys and the way he fell could've broken her but he decided it was going to be his knee that took the tweak not her. It's all about the dogs in our club as well.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kyle /Chad this is what I got from my TD and both my club decoys. 

From my TD


> Legal depending on the judge!


From the club decoys ..


> I think it is illegal now. This guy is a ****ing machine in the suit. 'X' our other club decoy did work with him. Not every decoy can jump that height in a suit. I watched Dosta jump 4 feet off the ground during our seminar. But not trying esquive.





> Hi again .. after checking my decoy rule book. Nowhere is it written it is illegal to have the two feet off the ground...and I had also asked 2 other experienced decoys...They told me it is legal...


So depending on the judge and the experience of the decoy is my guess. 

Whatever it is, the video of his move is awesome just to see the raw talent and athletism of Hervé Mavuanga in action.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: When I was in Colorado last year and spent a week training with Domique Pitton (sp) he talked a lot about fiarness in decoy work. Even went so far as to say he has told guys in his club in the past that if they try different things they Can do it Next Time with NO equipment and see how they like it.

Can you imagine how high he would have jumped without the suit ????


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Can you imagine how high he would have jumped without the suit ????


Yeah the next new extreme dogsport it will be called Nudeoring where the decoys face off against the dogs in the nude. Nothing but a Baton and a smile!


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah the next new extreme dogsport it will be called Nudeoring where the decoys face off against the dogs in the nude. Nothing but a Baton and a smile!


This isn't new. Most pet people already participate in neutoring. It's just usually the dog!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

You may wanna rethink that. I can almost guarantee my dogs gonna go for the dangly thing center mass.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I doubt he could catch Mavunga IN the suit. He is a GSD after all. LOL


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

He's already had bites from Herve at 5 months old. =P~ He thinks he's tasty.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I believe jumping over the dog is illegal now based on conversations with judges, although they still allow the decoys at the big events to bend (really really bend LOL) the rules. The rulebook we are currently using is old now, the French are working from a different/updated book, we are still waiting for an official translation here in the US.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Thanks to all you Ringers regarding the "legal" issues. Very interesting, and again what amazing athleticism!?!!!

LOL As far as no equipment, yikes! But seriously, fans of bullfighting would have a very different show if a predator species was "seeing red". And no thanks, to either events.

I do like seeing ringsport dogs bite, and their determination after being made to miss by an agile decoy.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I believe jumping over the dog is illegal now based on conversations with judges, although they still allow the decoys at the big events to bend (really really bend LOL) the rules.



what is the reasoning behind making jumping over the dog illegal?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you fall on the dog, bad things happen.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

kristin tresidder said:


> what is the reasoning behind making jumping over the dog illegal?


It's a full contact sport .. To many dogs and decoys can get injured. It's very easy to injure oneself and end careers of both dog and decoy. As Jeff says a decoy falls on a dog bad things happen. I've seen lots of competition dogs whose backs and necks are all screwed up from either a bad catch or repeated overuse, these dogs are athletes in a pure sense and do play/train hard even at club level.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Everytime a dog takes an impact, there is damage. It all adds up and you canot tell your dog to take it easy. They are what they are. It is a numbers game and when a dog going 30+ hits a decoy who is jumping at a weird angle, there is twisting and the possibility of more damage, not to mention, if the dog manages to grab the guy, the dog and the decoy will likely land on their backs, hopefully not at a weird angle.

It is pretty when they get it right for sure. I haven't found any footage of when they get it wrong. That would explain it better.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

i get the increased potential for injury with the increase in kinesis. personally, i wouldn't want to be airborn with 70# of teeth coming at me at 20mph! being beyond new to all of it, i guess i always viewed FR, mondio, KNPV etc, with the idea that the risk of injury to the dog is inherent anyway. i suppose leaving it up to the decoy's discretion leaves too many openings for showboating and the (frequently) subsequent disaster though.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is pretty when they get it right for sure. I haven't found any footage of when they get it wrong. That would explain it better.












This might explain some of it better. This is a pic of my bitch's grandfather Django Ot Vitosha where he screwed his back. I know the the pic isn't from Ringsports bitework actually all the Malinois that I have seen damaged are from competing in IPO or SchH are from bad catches or being jammed over time on the sleeve. Something about the suit where is seems IMHO that there is less impact on the dog than from a sleeve, I maybe wrong but it seems that way to me. Me Thinks if you jam a dog on a suit it is going to hurt the decoy as much as the dog, where the sleeve offers less of that buffer zone? Maybe that is a topic for another thread though.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Wow that picture says it all...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Wow that picture says it all...


And my hart will be in my throat every time I send my dog on a long bite. 
The next time my dog will see a long bite like the one in my sig of that distance will be at trial.
I will work some short targeting and control if need be. The dog has it no need to risk injury to show off that's what my sig is for.:smile:


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