# would you breed.....?



## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

I have a Malinois bitch that I'm working in schutzhund. She is three years old. She does very well in all three phase of the sport and everyone that's seen her work is impressed by her. There are however..some flies in the ointment...extreme dog aggression, male,female and even puppies. She is social in that I can take her from my property and she will tolerate people she doesn't know around her. On her own turf however, I have to be extremely carefull because she will and has go out and bite.
She is not spooky and I consider her to have a high treshhold environmentaly. She is very,very dominant with her own kind.
A concern for me is...would she be a good mother? Look forward to your comments.


btw, this is the best do forum.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Robin - Hi! Glad you joined the forum.

I've had one experience with a female that was irrationally aggressive with her own kind and she ended up eating her puppies. Ate most of them when they were a few days old and then the last one at 2weeks old. This was a Beauceron not a Malinois. I chanced breeding her against my better judgment as it's rare to find a strong female in Beauceron and she was strong, not just dog aggressive.

I've never bred a female malinois with the temperament you describe (bad with all dogs even puppies). However, the part about her being very territorial and biting intruders doesn't bother me because you said she is confident and tolerant in public.

Friends in Belgium say to not breed dogs that have problems with their own kind to such an extreme and have such extreme dominance. I know several that have tried and had even resorted to muzzling the bitch to keep her from killing her own pups. The bitches would transfer their aggression to the puppies if something was going on "outside", they would kill them over food, and many external things provoked the bitch to be aggressive to the pups. After trying it once, they said never again. 

I tried it once even with all the advice...if you are prepared for the worse and can handle it w/o changing your feelings toward your bitch if things go south, then maybe..I couldn't and the female was out of here afterwards.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Thats a hard one I personally would do some serious research on all know relatives (siblings, 1st, 2nd even third cousins and grnadparents etc). and become very familar with what they are known for producing. What you are wanting to know is, is this common in the line. If it is I would not breed her because the more specialized the handler needs to be the more room there is for error. Thus leaving the door wide open to risk that some of the resulting pups would fall into the wrong hands. Besides why would you want to reproduce that kind of dog. 
Now however if you find ithis is not the case with family members I would start looking for a male within the line that possesses rock solid nerves, is balance in drives with a mild manner and able to produce it in the litters he sires. Stay away from extremes in temperament...one extreme bred to the other will only produce more of either type. You are wanting and needing balance nothing the top. 

Some will disagree but this is where inbreeding(linebreeding just another form of inbreeding) comes in handy. Because you can be reasonably sure what your going to get. This is why I suggested going back into the line. But only if you can find the male I described above. JMH thoughts.




Robin Van Hecke said:


> I have a Malinois bitch that I'm working in schutzhund. She is three years old. She does very well in all three phase of the sport and everyone that's seen her work is impressed by her. There are however..some flies in the ointment...extreme dog aggression, male,female and even puppies. She is social in that I can take her from my property and she will tolerate people she doesn't know around her. On her own turf however, I have to be extremely carefull because she will and has go out and bite.
> She is not spooky and I consider her to have a high treshhold environmentaly. She is very,very dominant with her own kind.
> A concern for me is...would she be a good mother? Look forward to your comments.
> 
> ...


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Robin how is the dog with her own pack (human or otherwise)? I had a male Am. bulldog who was very dog aggressive with better adults and pups however all I had to do was tell him mine and then he would take the pup under his wing to the point that no dogs or outsiders could do anything with the puppy. Because I had told him the pup can do whatever it wants I am the only to punish the pup.

Do your research find out how the others in the line were with their own pups. You have no cause for alarm i personally wouldn't be borrowing trouble. Wait and see what happens because ultimately there's no way to know until you do it. 



Debbie Skinner said:


> Robin - Hi! Glad you joined the forum.
> 
> I've had one experience with a female that was irrationally aggressive with her own kind and she ended up eating her puppies. Ate most of them when they were a few days old and then the last one at 2weeks old. This was a Beauceron not a Malinois. I chanced breeding her against my better judgment as it's rare to find a strong female in Beauceron and she was strong, not just dog aggressive.
> 
> ...


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

HI Debbie, thanks...a great forum.

I'm not that computer literate yet so here's where to find info on my dog: Amy des Pirates de Matra at workingdog.eur or something like that anyway.
As you'll see, she is bred on Klemm with many good producers in the pedigree. I imported her as a young dog and she came with a few scars leading me to believe that she'd a few battles over there. I was thinking that her behaviour might stem from her previous encounters and not all from her genetic makeup.
She just has so many good qualities that I'm tempted to breed her, very calm tracking,focused obedience and explosive protection work.
She is not a basket case, I have a two year old toddler running around here and she's very gentle with her.


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## Tracy Brown (Aug 3, 2009)

Here's a link to her pedigree. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=36557&new_lan_en


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Thanks Tracy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well, since you are not sure if you would breed her, then lets go the other way, and ask who would you breed her to ?? Are you going to be able to keep the male from getting hurt if she gets away during the tie and spins ??

Then there is the eating the puppies thing. A general pattern that I have seen over a long time is that if something happened to the dog, then there usually is a pass for smaller dogs, as it happened when they were small, and it was a bigger dog. It is the insecurity that makes them go after dogs, the " I will get you first " sort of mentality.

Then, is this something you dealt with, or just bypassed as it was hard enough to get to training and all that kind of stuff. Not slamming, but that is the way a lot of people go about their business, as it is messy, and can be avoided.

I am curious about that, have you gotten a BH ??? Would she be able to do a BH with the other dog walking by ?? I have seen a lot of dogs that were just asshats that with a few adjustments, (read correct the shit out of them) stopped the rediculous end of the behavior.

Then, there is the one reason that I would not breed the dog, and that is that she is not good with puppies. The mothers influence is a crucial part of a puppies upbringing. What is this dog going to impart to her pups, especially if the worst happens ?? If she wants to do horrible things to them, are they gonna feel secure ?? What is she going to leave them with ??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Also seeing you have one of the few Klemm dogs in th states...That's a tough call to not breed. Nice pedigree. I think how social a female is, has very little to do with how she will deal with her offspring. A friend of mine had a dog whom was supersocial, but looked at the pups as almost a burden...she begrudgingly to care of them, and then kicked them off as soon as she could...she also would step right on them, never once even flintching at thier screams, to say hi to people. 

Another dog, I thought for sure would be a terrible mother. was probably the best mother I have ever seen. she was always looking for them, cleaning them and she would people say high, but she would watch you. A dog that was very extreme in everyother facet of life...seemed that being a mother was the only thing that gave her a calm deamnor.

Seeing what Klemm has produced, and what he can add to lines. I would use her. I bet you'll be very suprised on what kind of mother she wil ble.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm not sure who I would breed her to but I've been reading a lot about in/linebreeding so I would look for a similar line male.
When she was in heat I had her next to my male dog and she acted very welcoming so I would hope that her romantic side would prevail.
She has the BH and on the field I have complete control of her. I will be trialing her in Nov., as she's doing a sch.3 routine now.
I'm hoping that if I breed her and that's a big IF,the behaviour she shows toward my 2 year old will be what she's like with her pups.
I'd like to try this breeding thing one more time, in the nineties had a go at it and produced some decent dogs but had a f*#! of a time finding suitable homes for them.(before the internet made the worls smaller)
Thanks for the input.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Like having a hard time finding homes is gonna stop. LOL


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Even the cops around here don't want them...they all want Rin Tin Tin.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We have 5 of the ten cops in the country who know whats up right here. LOL


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Also seeing you have one of the few Klemm dogs in th states...That's a tough call to not breed. Nice pedigree. I think how social a female is, has very little to do with how she will deal with her offspring. A friend of mine had a dog whom was supersocial, but looked at the pups as almost a burden...she begrudgingly to care of them, and then kicked them off as soon as she could...she also would step right on them, never once even flintching at thier screams, to say hi to people.
> 
> Another dog, I thought for sure would be a terrible mother. was probably the best mother I have ever seen. she was always looking for them, cleaning them and she would people say high, but she would watch you. A dog that was very extreme in everyother facet of life...seemed that being a mother was the only thing that gave her a calm deamnor.
> 
> Seeing what Klemm has produced, and what he can add to lines. I would use her. I bet you'll be very suprised on what kind of mother she wil ble.


That's encouraging talk, didn't know there were so few Klemm bred dogs in NA. Why is that so? The dog certainly proved himself on the schutzhund field. Maybe it's because the Malinois is a Belgian/French dog so trainers are more inclined to seek stock from breeders there? The Germans certainly have been doing their homework and working with Mals like they wish they could with their own native breed.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Even the cops around here don't want them...they all want Rin Tin Tin.


The past few I've seen around here have been mostly Mals. One with our local dept. and well over half of the Monroe PD was mals. They had a pic of there psd's at a local dog show I went to while taking charitable donations.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

_Extreme dog aggression, male,female and even puppies. She is social in that I can take her from my property and she will tolerate people she doesn't know around her. On her own turf however, I have to be extremely carefull because she will and has go out and bite._

Ok extrem dog agretion. Cant be trusted with strangers, and she will bite. Yes Bulldog peopel are cluless... Ther are so many mals out ther,So many that I culdent ceep track if I wante to with IPO 3 tittels, Ring tittels, KNPV tittels, good helt and they are sosial, ok with dogs AND they can be trusted around folks that dosent threten them. 
WHY wuld you breed that dog?

I culd go out and buy a dog from many difrent liters this day and I know in many generations that the dogs do not have thos problems. Its one of the bigges working breeds in the world, The dog iset even BH titteld. 

So a short awnser, No i wuld not breed the dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey, here is another rotten piece of shit spawn. Not a fan, never gonna be, as he was just another ****** Sch dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAN6p9qPps&feature=related

Bet this dog would ROCK in Sch. HA HA

Thats Tim Bartlett running the dog, USMRA's own.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> She has the BH and on the field I have complete control of her. I will be trialing her in Nov., as she's doing a sch.3 routine now.


Aren't they all, and this will make the 1 and 2 a breeze right.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Aren't they all, and this will make the 1 and 2 a breeze right.


 
As a matter of fact.....it is a breeze...what's your point?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Hey, here is another rotten piece of shit spawn. Not a fan, never gonna be, as he was just another ****** Sch dog.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAN6p9qPps&feature=related
> 
> ...


He may or may not rock in schutzhund....listen, I'm under no illusion when it comes to that sport,there are a lot of mediocre dogs tittled...however there are some good examples of the breeds as well.
One of the reasons I play in that sport is because it's the only game in town. In the nineties I played at French Ring but the level of training did not progress...to say nothing of the politics.
I agree with you that there are a lot of shitters in schutzhund...as there were in ring in North America.

Thanks


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> _Extreme dog aggression, male,female and even puppies. She is social in that I can take her from my property and she will tolerate people she doesn't know around her. On her own turf however, I have to be extremely carefull because she will and has go out and bite._
> 
> Ok extrem dog agretion. Cant be trusted with strangers, and she will bite. Yes Bulldog peopel are cluless... Ther are so many mals out ther,So many that I culdent ceep track if I wante to with IPO 3 tittels, Ring tittels, KNPV tittels, good helt and they are sosial, ok with dogs AND they can be trusted around folks that dosent threten them.
> WHY wuld you breed that dog?
> ...


 
???? try reading my post again.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> HI Debbie, thanks...a great forum.
> 
> I'm not that computer literate yet so here's where to find info on my dog: Amy des Pirates de Matra at workingdog.eur or something like that anyway.
> As you'll see, she is bred on Klemm with many good producers in the pedigree. I imported her as a young dog and she came with a few scars leading me to believe that she'd a few battles over there. I was thinking that her behaviour might stem from her previous encounters and not all from her genetic makeup.
> ...


Klemm is very good to have in the pedigree! :-D I think it depends on her temperament and not her relatives temperament as far as if she'll be a good mother. You've had litters and trained a lot of working dogs so I would say "go for it", but with the mindset that if she isn't a good mother that she's still your dog and having puppies would just be a plus. Just hope that her bad past relations with dogs or littermates (you'll never know for sure) do not make her a bad mother. Has there been any dogs or puppies that she's been friendly with..ever?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Klemm is very good to have in the pedigree! :-D I think it depends on her temperament and not her relatives temperament as far as if she'll be a good mother. You've had litters and trained a lot of working dogs so I would say "go for it", but with the mindset that if she isn't a good mother that she's still your dog and having puppies would just be a plus. Just hope that her bad past relations with dogs or littermates (you'll never know for sure) do not make her a bad mother. Has there been any dogs or puppies that she's been friendly with..ever?


Well, when she first came to me, I let her run with Mojo, my boy dog and there was no problem....till the day they had a blowout over a stick...was a tough fight to break up...no quitting.
I will try it if I find the right match for her...may contact some people in Europe to get advice as well.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

My female was bred to a very very dominant male that was Extream in possession of a toy/ball, so much so that he had put three PSD handlers in the hospital and one on permanent disability.

I had reservations about matching the two up as My female is very ball possessive as well.


They turned out good together, even ran around and played. The owner of the male was kinda taken back saying that was the first time he had ever seen Him play and enjoy the company of another dog.

BUT

I will say that it is my experience that Most Males I know are, in general, much more tolerant of Females and even more so if they think they are getting some. Not sure if it works as much the other way?


I do have a $5oo vet bill from a Tiff over a ball between my current Female and Male Mal.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> My female was bred to a very very dominant male that was Extream in possession of a toy/ball, so much so that he had put three PSD handlers in the hospital and one on permanent disability.
> 
> I had reservations about matching the two up as My female is very ball possessive as well.
> 
> ...


I hear you, I know that in the past, I have been very tolerant of some women hoping that I might get some.:-D
More serious now....I'm hoping that when the urge strikes her...she does mellow out some.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

If you look at lot of the dogs doing good right now. Klemm x Lupano's Duke... Klemm x Gismo. Klemm x Elgos...have been making great dogs.

And here is a bitch with all three in her lines. She has one of the best Koroungs I have ever seen. Check out the Koroung Video, the bite work at the end is short but impressive.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/54422/Perikefalea-A-Zora

Bendix, Cayman and Azara Vom Alderauge all have silimar dogs in thier ped's and have been doing great. 

With as much Klemm as your bitch has in her...I may look for a Duke, or Gismo, or Strong Elgos lines to breed with.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

If you are looking for a lot of Elgos and Cartouche, a friend of mine in NY has an Elgos grandson, Lupano's Erik, SchHIII: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2694/Lupanos-Erik


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> If you are looking for a lot of Elgos and Cartouche, a friend of mine in NY has an Elgos grandson, Lupano's Erik, SchHIII: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2694/Lupanos-Erik


 
I researched Erik... I heard a lot of great things about him from multiple folks. I am just trying to get away from Elgos. I have enough of him in my bitch. But if I had Klemm Daughter..... I would defintly check him out.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Really thankfull for all the information...here's where geography comes into play...I'm at the most western point in Canada......


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'd be on the fence. I've seen females who weren't good with other dogs, but were excellent with their own pups. And females who were great with other dogs but crappy with their own pups (stepping on them, ignoring them, etc). I've also seen females who were caring, nurturing, etc with their puppies then later thumping on them for coming to close to a bone so ...

One thing that would concern me is if she will pass the extreme dog aggression on to her offspring, even if she's great with them.

Looking at her photo she seems to be physically very similar to Stoned, you might also look at doing a line breeding on that part of her pedigree.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Really thankfull for all the information...here's where geography comes into play...I'm at the most western point in Canada......


On Wed, I "repo'd" a very nice Dexter son from Vancouver - Benz des Ombres Valeureux. The dog is very strong with a big bite and crazy hunt drive. He's not as big as his sire, but is 75-78lbs. Now I know it can take 1 month for a Canadian issued check to bounce <sigh> He would of been in the area and available if the guy had finished paying for him. I love these bloodlines, but they would take you in a different direction than your bitch...more like the old stuff you used to have....not "perfect" for schutzhund as the dogs are difficult to control.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/177035/Benz-des-Ombres-Valeureux


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

My old competition dog (Race Rocks Bretta) was bred by Mr. Van Hecke. I titled her in FR, won a national title in the old NAPD, and took 2nd in the first PSA western regional. I have gone through 4 dogs in the last 5 years trying to replace her.

She was a pain in the ass to live with but a nice competition dog who would bite your ass for real.

God I miss that dog!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Hi Chris,
What was the pedigree of your female?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Sire was Qujac D2P

Mom was Quirrana du Boscaille 

I would have to go back and look it up to know the dogs behind them.

She was all the good D2P and du Boscaille stuff that just isn't around closer than 3 (if your lucky) generations anymore.

I would give my left nut to have that dog back.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

By the way since we are on this subject......

People speak very highly of Klemm. Obviously his records speaks for itself, but I have asked this several times on forums and no one seems to know (or want to answer) my question about Klemm.

From a breeding stand point, what does he bring to the table?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Chris Keister said:


> My old competition dog (Race Rocks Bretta) was bred by Mr. Van Hecke. I titled her in FR, won a national title in the old NAPD, and took 2nd in the first PSA western regional. I have gone through 4 dogs in the last 5 years trying to replace her.
> 
> She was a pain in the ass to live with but a nice competition dog who would bite your ass for real.
> 
> God I miss that dog!


Man....it is a small world...Hi Chris, yes I did breed Bretta.I remember her as being a great pup! Her father, Quajac, was one of the best Mals I've ever had the pleasure of owning or knowing. He was absolutely fearless AND he survived my training. I remember wheeling him through the Paris airport ar just over six weeks of age when his crate tumbled off the cart and spilled him out into a crowd of people. He came out barking ready to take on the world...what a dog...I miss him.
Tell me some more of Bretta.


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