# Temperment comparison..



## Sam Richardson (May 9, 2008)

Between a working line Dobernan and a euro/american Dobie who's parents do agility/ shultz and shows.
Oh and both dogs would be neutered..

Im looking for a pet that I can opt to do agility and traking with if I wanted too, in the future.. 

Say you start do Shultz training fora year then stop? Can you keep training at home.. WIll the dog act out? Can I always replace the activity with something elsr physically and mentally taxing, right? It's the energy you want to deplete?


I WANT A QUALITY DOG! But not one that wants to bite everyone...lol


thx in advance


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## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

Sam,

There is a big difference between most American and Euro lined Dobermanns.

In general the breeders in the US have not had working ability as a high priority, while some sort of working evaluation is required in most of Europe

There are a few breeders who have succesfully produced good workers by combining Euro and American lnies, but for the most part these dogs are bred with a greator emphasis toward the show ring.

Regarding your question about a Dobe lashing out, a Dobermann with a solid tempernment regardless of lines should not be lashing out and biting people for no reason.

That said any Dobermann requires significant excersize and mental stimulation or they will entertain them selves


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## Sam Richardson (May 9, 2008)

Hmmm...Wit what Im looking for in a dog wich route do you think I should go? DO you know of any GOOD euro\American breeders? 

So the american Dobie will just want to play ball and the Euro will want to do agility type things..Simply put, right?

Is ball and running and long walks enough for a Euro Dobie? I dont want a thin looking Dobie as I plan to neuter.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

While I would have to defer to Vadim who is a dedicated and well informed ambassador for the Dobermann breed, I did find this site interesting...

http://www.caradobe.com/index.html

There are many interesting articles on the Dobe and Dobe related topics incuding the crossing of European/American lines, ideal temperament and Schutzhund.

If Schutzhund or another protection sport is your main interest it is very important to go to a breeder who is breeding dogs for this type of work. If you are looking for an active dog with good temperament to serve as a family guardian, running partner or to compete in agility or obedience with you could select a breeder who either breeds for schutzhund/protection sports or one who breeds for obedience and agility.

It is important to define you goals prior to purchasing a puppy. If you select a pup for agilty and as a household companion and decide to do Schutzhund later you may very well find you do not have a dog of the proper drives or character. If you go to a working dog breeder and have him/her select a dog for Schutzhund and then decide you just want a running companion you may find your pup is a little too much to live with easily.

For me, any breed of dog needs excercise and mental stimulation. If you choose a pug then a couple games of fetch the squeaky toy up and down the stairs and a round or two of "dog biscuit hide and seek" may be adequate. If you buy a working or performance bred dog of any breed (large or small) the least you should expect to do is a daily run, hike or swim and to actively train for some metally challenging activity such as Schuthund, agility, competetive obedience or other organized dog sport.

As far as start again/stop again Schutzhund training, here is my general feeling on the subject (I have bred working Malinois for many years)...while training for protection sports is not the same as personal protection training, much of the work looks similar. It is very important to be sure you are training with an individual/group who has titled dogs in the sport you prefer and trains in a style you are comfortable with. In the first year of a pup's training the emphasis is on play based training which in effect is a stylized game of tug-of -war. The dog is asked to put in progressively more and more effort to win the prize in the form of biting harder surfaces, fighting longer and more vigorously and eventually to initiate the game by barking.

It is my belief that although the work looks much the same through this first year it can roughly be divided into two phases...puppy imprinting and drive building. To me imprinting is the work that occurs between 8 weeks and when the pup finishes teething and drive building occurs in the period after teething until one year or so. The biggest difference during this period is not what we do but the dog's perception of the work. Sometime shortly after the end of teething the dog enters adolescence. It is during this time the happy go lucky-everyone is my pal stage ends and we start to see the onset of territorial aggression, suspicion towards strangers and other dogs, etc.. 

I believe as a general rule you must make the choice to end training for Schutzhund or other protection sports prior to when the pup completes teething (prior to six months) or see it through until the completion of the dog's adolescence. While the changes we see in the dog will happen naturally, training for sport intensifies these changes. It opens door earlier than if we had just allowed the dog to mature naturally and opens the door more "widely" if you will. Sport training encourages the dog to move forward towards threat/game and to think on its own. At the least, I encourage owners to get to the point where they have basic bark, bite, out control and the ability to get focus from the dog in the prescence of the decoy before ending bitework training in a dog from six months to approximately a year in age.

Do your homework on both the sport and the breeder and you will end up with a dog and a hobby you enjoy. Skip these steps and you will likely be sorry (and so will your dog!)


Lisa Maze
www.loupsdusoleil.com


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Very nice post, Lisa


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## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

Great post Lisa!

Cara is great choice.
Also take a look at http://www.wittrockdobermans.com/ 
Be prepared to wait, as they have long lists of interested buyers....

If agility is your first priority, you will be very happy with an American or Euro/American dog.
If Schutz is first priority I would go with a Dobermann from proven Euro lines.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Save money and get one from the pound. If you are going to play the Schutzhund game, go as far as the dog can, or don't do it at all. You can't compare European working dogs with American. All things being equal, the Europen stuff is much better. For those who don't think so, look a law enforcement folks. I don't know of many state or local departments that buy American stuff. They buy out of Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium or some of the old Czech Republic areas.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

How frequent are dobermans selected for law enforcement?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> How frequent are dobermans selected for law enforcement?


 In my neck of the woods, I don't and haven't seen any. In the 1980's Delaware have some Giant Schnauzers. The dog of choice is being the Malinois, smaller and faster than the GS and might be better on the bite. I've owned GS and not a Mal. Currently have Bouviers.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My schutzhund TD told me his favorite dog ever was a Bouvier. What are some of the differences between Bouvier and GS that you see, in regards to schutzhund?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> My schutzhund TD told me his favorite dog ever was a Bouvier. What are some of the differences between Bouvier and GS that you see, in regards to schutzhund?


Daryl I'm not sure if there are that big a differences in any breed as it relates to Schutzhund. All breeds play the game, it boils down to the temperament of the dog and those genetics that it comes with. The GS is well known and some judges will give the shepherd an edge. Some judges like the off breeds. To me it really is a matter of personal choice. 

If you like the speed of a Malinois then I don't see many faster! If it's a BIG body with a beard...an Amish guy will do!  Oh, dogs. The Bouvier has a deep chest, some have lots of coat and others have very little. The Bouvier is more independent. It is all about the critter and less about the breed. The breed is the "look" you enjoy. Dirty beards are my choice for now.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I think as far as Sam's original question, regarding a Dobie who can do agility and be a good family pet, you can pretty much take any dog for that. I have a friend who has an American bred show line dog who does agility. He's intelligent, has great obedience, and enjoys doing agility. Like any dog, find a good temperament and you will have a much easier road doing things like obedience and agility than if you get a nerve bag dog. You don't need a working line dog to do agility or competitive obedience. 

I don't agree that Mals are always the dog of choice for police work. My friend who is director of K9 for a fairly large county department around here just had a new class of around 8 recruits and every dog was a GSD.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would stay towards lines out of holland. The problem with American lines are they are pretty infested with various genetic problems.

I think that you will have good luck with a Dobe in agility, but stay away from the bitework, as Dobes are bigtime disappointers there.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> but stay away from the bitework, as Dobes are bigtime disappointers there.


Not the "look" I'd care for. Sorry Howard, but that seemed like a cop-out answer. Since I've not seen any Bouvier's in work or sport, I wonder what "generalizations" could be made about them? Does their independence disappoint for obedience?


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*The Bouvier des Flandres*

Over the past thirty years, I have perhaps been as close as anybody to the saga of
the Bouvierf des Flandres - I did in fact write the book - and all that I can say in
retrospect is that something of enormous value has been lost forever.

The Bouvier was for me the best dog in the world, but now it is almost gone, because
so many took but did not give back.

I see the same story playing out for the Doberman and find it all very sad.

People like to talk about a European reservoir of working stock, but look up
the German registrations, only a few hundred Doberman per year, not enough
to maintain a real working gene pool, and many know that so few German 
Dobermans are bred for real work, and the lines are so tight, and the genetic
diseases so well entrenched.

It is a a tragedy, for both breeds and several others.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Not the "look" I'd care for. Sorry Howard, but that seemed like a cop-out answer. Since I've not seen any Bouvier's in work or sport, I wonder what "generalizations" could be made about them? Does their independence disappoint for obedience?


Not a cop-out. How do you put a genereal statement to anything? General...They have 4 legs, like most of them. If they are out of working lines, many should work. They are a deep chested breed and can face the issue of bloat. They have been used for herding, carting milk in the 1900's, factory, prison, police and security work. Some have more coat than others. My male's coat is something like a Giant Schnauzer, the female is more plush. They are a large breed and with the proper genetics can kick butt. I think a good number of the show lines folks have screwed them up, like everything they do to *working animals*!!!!! Those who have seen and worked may male would rather let others take on this PPD. See my website.

*I'm NOT unhappy with mine*, in fact I have a litter on the ground and they are 4 weeks old. Daryl if you think you can handle the breed, then PM Jim about them as he is a foundation of Bouv knowledge. I have 3 males and 3 females. One of the females may go this weekend to a decoy near me. The man knows my lines and likes the breed. I will meet him this Sunday. Send me a PM and I'll be happy to sell you one. This is not a show lines, weak as water breeding. You had better be a GOOD and STRONG leader and be willing to learn from this breed.

I had a Giant Schnauzer and they are something like them. Again, you can't put many general tags to anything unique! Now where's my Amen? :mrgreen:


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## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

Perhaps I am particularly lucky but I have not had any trouble finding Dobermanns that are far from disappointing in bite work. 

Or maybe I just know where to look? Excellent Working Dobermanns are out there competing in all the sports. Do they win? Sometimes.... But then what breed consistently wins all breed events besides a mal?

Is it easier to find a good working Mal then it is a Dobe? 
Are mals healthier then dobes?
Sure, but then you could say that about any breed when comparing to mals......


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

> Or maybe I just know where to look?


I find this true with German Shepherds as well, when people are saying how difficult it is to find a 'good one'.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Howard, I appreciate the offer. I hope to see one "in the work" someday, but I've got a full house as it is for now.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Perhaps I am particularly lucky but I have not had any trouble finding Dobermanns that are far from disappointing in bite work. 

Maybe disappointing in the "out"        

Need to get out there more I think. I have dealt with this breed for some time now, and while I will always enjoy the "idea" of the breed, true examples are rare for sure. I have one coming to me in the next month or so. I will have an "experiment" for Mondio at least. I have seen some of what he has produced, and this dog should be out there having sex, but as he is not "showy" and "known" he just has the one litter. I would like to see this change, and maybe if he can handle Mondio, it will. Now to find owners that are not useless...............silly show people:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff 


You hit the nail on the head!!! 
Both in terms of control and especially finding good working home owners!

Send me some info on the dog you mentioned and I can help you get his name out


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