# Bouncing off bites



## butch wellington (Jan 29, 2014)

I have a 23 month old Mal, on run aways he will bounce off the sleve 20% of the time. He doesn't do it if the decoy is close just on the break aways. He was doing it before I got him because we saw a video of him and he did it once. Just figured he was only 14 months old at the time and was a timing issue and would get it figure out. But he hasn't gotten any better. Doesn't matter if it's a bar or hidden sleve. Just wondering if anyone else has had this issue and what they did to correct it.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

There could be many reasons. Possibly a bad experience as a young dog and he got jammed? How's his health (teeth, jaws, neck)? Is he a PSD? And if he is I'd lose the sleeve and stay with a suit. Long, high speed runoffs are just an ego builder IMO. If he's a certified patrol dog there's really no need to do a lot of long runoffs. Too many opportunities for him to get injured and possibly be forced into early retirement. The fact that he doesn't do it close would lead me to believe he's had a bad experience in the past, or that the high speeds are causing discomfort. Just a guess without seeing him work.

If you're hell bent on solid long runoffs then start close and over time gradually extend the distance. It's not something that you'll fix in just a few training sessions. If it's a medical problem then address that and start the slow process as already stated.

Also...how much muzzle work has this dog had? Some dogs will just impact with the body on long muzzle runoffs. If he's had alot of muzzle work he may be naturally transferring to a body shot as a default. Again...just spitballing.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool answer dude! 
Pure guess but maybe lack of confidence at a distance?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Cool answer dude!
> Pure guess but maybe lack of confidence at a distance?


 That too.


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## butch wellington (Jan 29, 2014)

I think his health is fine, was examined by our vet in November when we got him. I brush his teeth daily and see no evidence of any tooth or gum issues. He is a service dog and we don't do alot of break aways but we do have to do them for the uspca certification and so we do alot more of them when we are getting ready to certify. I dont think he has had any muzzle work, when I first started putting a muzzle on him he would fight it like he hadn't had one on before. For a while I made him wear it back and forth to work to get him use to it. I then tried to do a little muzzle work with him with my decoy ( who is experienced in muzzle work) but the dog wouldn't stay engaged, so we stopped and figure would pick it back up as he got a little bolder. He had only been with us a couple of months and we didn't want to stress him too much at first. Only tried the muzzle work because he has plenty of bite drive but when he couldn't bite quit engaging so we figure we would let him settle in and get more relaxed with the decoy before picking it back up again. I just assumed it was because of his age, the other 2 K9's I had were 2 years old when we got them and have never had this kind of issue. The one thing I did forget to mention was it's almost always his first bite that he bounces off of which there again just made me think it was a young dog not being able to concentrate and then after the initial nerves had settled down would lock on. But I would think by now he would have figured it out. Thanks!


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Try tire drags. It will slow him down so he can adjust/time himself better, and at the same time cause him to dig in and actually put some effort into it. The decoy can also use it as tension to help set the bite.

Ang


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Would love to see some video of his bitework before making a diagnosis but if I had to make a guess I would say he needs some confidence building. I would get yourself a good decoy and take him back to sleeve work on the post. Lots and lots of lift off’s while you whisper sweet nothing’s in his ears working on building him up. .. then transfer it to SHORT sends.
Remember… distance can be a confidence killer in a dog if his bitework skills are lacking. And if you are doing sends on a running decoy, his prey drive should be driving him into that sleeve. If it isn’t and his drive ISN’T THE ISSUE and he was a properly selected dog, then you need to work on building him up. 

Make sure you rule out some sort of medical issue like Howard mentioned however… tooth and spinal problems could mask the same problems easily.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ang Cangiano said:


> Try tire drags. It will slow him down so he can adjust/time himself better, and at the same time cause him to dig in and actually put some effort into it. The decoy can also use it as tension to help set the bite.
> 
> Ang


A bungee would work too


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

A service dog at that age with no health issues ,i would put the test to him.
No good? bye bye.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

for what its worth

sometimes dogs will engage much better in muzzle and on sends if they have a personal reason.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> A service dog at that age with no health issues ,i would put the test to him.
> No good? bye bye.



Not everyone has that luxury. In a perfect world, yes. Sometimes you have to groom, grow and mould a candidate. Different dogs mature at different rates. This dog being only 14 months old with no health problems....and properly driven, should be okay. If this is his only issue I don't think it's a deal killer. My biggest complaint is that the police are forced to work with such young dogs nowadays. Too young most of the time. JMO


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

butch wellington said:


> I think his health is fine, was examined by our vet in November when we got him. I brush his teeth daily and see no evidence of any tooth or gum issues. He is a service dog and we don't do alot of break aways but we do have to do them for the uspca certification and so we do alot more of them when we are getting ready to certify. I dont think he has had any muzzle work, when I first started putting a muzzle on him he would fight it like he hadn't had one on before. For a while I made him wear it back and forth to work to get him use to it. I then tried to do a little muzzle work with him with my decoy ( who is experienced in muzzle work) but the dog wouldn't stay engaged, so we stopped and figure would pick it back up as he got a little bolder. He had only been with us a couple of months and we didn't want to stress him too much at first. Only tried the muzzle work because he has plenty of bite drive but when he couldn't bite quit engaging so we figure we would let him settle in and get more relaxed with the decoy before picking it back up again. I just assumed it was because of his age, the other 2 K9's I had were 2 years old when we got them and have never had this kind of issue. The one thing I did forget to mention was it's almost always his first bite that he bounces off of which there again just made me think it was a young dog not being able to concentrate and then after the initial nerves had settled down would lock on. But I would think by now he would have figured it out. Thanks!


How is his attack on itself? Does he show anything at all before bouncing off the bite? Does he go in a straight line or is there a bend to his attack. Does he go through the middle, aiming straight for the decoy, or does he come at the outside of the decoy? All these things will tell you where the confidence of this dog is. The biggest give away is the approach from a distance... if he deviates and constantly bounces of the first bite but recovers and rebites well the 2nd time then its a courage/confidence issue...

At 2 years old, good luck of getting rid of it. I give you little hope that it will bounce back if that is the actual problem.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jack van strien said:


> A service dog at that age with no health issues ,i would put the test to him.
> No good? bye bye.


+100


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> Not everyone has that luxury. In a perfect world, yes. Sometimes you have to groom, grow and mould a candidate. Different dogs mature at different rates. This dog being only 14 months old with no health problems....and properly driven, should be okay. If this is his only issue I don't think it's a deal killer. My biggest complaint is that the police are forced to work with such young dogs nowadays. Too young most of the time. JMO


this dog is 23 months old, Howard. 

Bubye if at 23 months it is still showing the same problems that it showed at 14 months. If in 9 months the bouncing of the bite can't be fixed and the bouncing of the bite is persistant then it should be tested to see where its courage levels are at... Bouncing of the bites with no health reasons behind it what so ever is either bad training or lack of character/courage and is not something that can be repaired easy or at all.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Is the dog hitting feet first?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> this dog is 23 months old, Howard.
> 
> Bubye if at 23 months it is still showing the same problems that it showed at 14 months. If in 9 months the bouncing of the bite can't be fixed and the bouncing of the bite is persistant then it should be tested to see where its courage levels are at... Bouncing of the bites with no health reasons behind it what so ever is either bad training or lack of character/courage and is not something that can be repaired easy or at all.


 Where the hell did I get 14 months old?](*,) OK, I see what I did. He got him at 14 months old and it's been a problem for almost a year.

23 months old...I have to agree with you and Jack.


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## butch wellington (Jan 29, 2014)

Here's a link to the video when he was 13 months old while he was in europe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIVrtylke4k I don't think it's a courage issue but I'm just a small town boy who really don't know much of anything. It just always seemed to me that he just can't seem to consistantly clamp down at the the right time. My experienced decoy is on vacation but I have a new guy that we have started teaching to decoy. Unfortunately we just have to find fellow employees to help us decoy and do the best we can with what we got. The dogs belong to the state and we aren't allowed to participate in any sporting dog activities. But will try and get a video taken.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

My opinion is there is your problem right there, dude semi blocked him with mistiming, easily done, don't think it's a confidence thing, dog has enough prey to carry him through that. Check his neck, then start short again. Make sure dog and decoys timing coincides.

Like I said just my opinion, more experienced people up there ^^


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## butch wellington (Jan 29, 2014)

Here's some footage from today. This is a new decoy becasue my experienced one is on vacation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urgGZ4Y1rhM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehFj7k7vC9c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT3OkdZKyUA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyIvXq4TKMM


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

This is a PSD right? Get rid of that damn sleeve! I HATE seeing a patrol dog swing wide to grab a sleeve. He should be targeting the body on a runoff. Do you have a live street engagement yet? 

You're probably using a barrel sleeve and it's size just does not fit this dog. Get a Suit or soft sleeve if you have to have one. JMO from viewing these videos. The dog doesn't appear to have confidence issues, just training issues.


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## butch wellington (Jan 29, 2014)

It's a hidden sleeve, just didn't put the jacket on. Our policies dictate that we certify through the uspca and they HAVE TO go for the arm and they do their attack with the decoy running straight away. We do have a suit and his bites are better on the suit but the problem is when we certify it will be run away bites with the hidden sleeve and during the certification a couple of weeks ago he bounced on one of the three bites. He still certified but we got dinged pretty hard on the missed bite so I'm just trying to find away to fix it. I will do more work with the suit if you think it will help. I guess we have just been lucky with the other dogs because about the only time we use the suit is for building searches. No live bite yet and I work for the dept of corrections so actual runaways aren't something we really have to deal with, it's just during the certification.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

The first video does not mean anything,easy to get a dog to look good.runaway bite and no out.
What i see in the other video's is a dog who is not very confident,he is not on a mission.
In a real challenge he would fail,sorry but it is my opinion that the dog comes up short.
Maybe if you would go back and actually help the dog he may get better but never good.
Imo if you would test him properly he would not show up for work.
I know it is not nice to hear your dog has issues(i have been there)but you need to hear the truth.
I am sure you will get more opnions.


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## butch wellington (Jan 29, 2014)

What should I do to challenge him?


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Where are you located?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Why work the constant long bites when there is no chance for you to support or help the dog. Put him on the bite and support him, keep it short and forget the long bites for a while. On the long bites he has issues and from what I can see there is something lacking on his attitude. Jack is right, he will leave you standing there when you need him most. Put him to a real test, full pressure, screams, pain, blablabla.... He might beat you to the car in that situation. If this an actual working PSD I would not be happy with him. Its to no fault of the dog at all tho, he just doesn't show to have what it takes. If you are wondering what it is that I feel is lacking in him... Convinction!

He does not show conviction in his bite and or attitude. He bites and works because its what is expected of him but not because he feels there is something in it for him. He doesn't seem to see the decoy as something that he owns. 

JMO


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Butch you will have to ask yourself what do you want from your dog?
Will you be working indoors or also outdoors?will there be any oflead attacks?
From your earlier post it seemed you are only worried about passing certification.
What will happen if a 300lbs inmate decides to try and kick or maim your dog?
If at any time your life could be in danger and the only thing between you and the bad guy is your dog then you should really be able to rely on him.
I saw in one video he is really looking and aiming for the sleeve and staying low to the ground,does that tell you anything?
What do you think would be a fair test?
If you have no idea i will tell you my idea later.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Alice you resonded while i was typing my last post.We are looking at things from a different angle but you are totally right.You and i would not keep this dog for KNPV purposes because he would not cut it.
But Butch has to make up his mind what he wants from his dog and take it from there.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jack van strien said:


> Alice you resonded while i was typing my last post.We are looking at things from a different angle but you are totally right.You and i would not keep this dog for KNPV purposes because he would not cut it.
> But Butch has to make up his mind what he wants from his dog and take it from there.


You are right, I would not keep him, Jack. he would get a fair chance with me but if he didn't shape up he would be out the door. Its not even as much for KNPV reasons as the fact that I would want to sell any dog I have trained into law enforcement and this dog just doesn't have what it takes in my eyes to keep his handler safe when needed. I would not dream of keeping a dog that would be a half measure at best and that "might" be there when push came to shove.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

The problem is Butch doesn't get a say in this. This is the dog he was given and I'm assuming unless the head trainer washes the dog this is the dog he's got.

The dog seems very puppy like in behavior. Personally I think he needs to see this as a real confrontation, right now it's just a fun game for him which is why he's lacking intensity.

Ang


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

That he targets from the side is indeed a bad sign, but could also be the course of poor training.
As far as i can see he is a happy/sport type dog. Noting wrong with that. You just need to know how far you can push him/how far he will go. 
Suit up a decoy en let him wrestle the dog on/to the ground, and put some pressure on him till he tends to back off. Than you know.
Simulate scenario's that you suspect to encounter on the job, it will prepare the dog and he will show stronger.
I would not be to worry'd about not using a sleeve. At a trail a hidden sleeve is (normally) presented very clearly to the dog so he will go for that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

dont know the dog, but re-iterating



> for what its worth
> 
> sometimes dogs will engage much better in muzzle and on sends if they have a personal reason.


commitment intensity, love of fight can increase dramatically


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Do some simple things. Scenarios, but very basic and much less distance. DOC?. Anything in your SOP. Track with a bite. Cell extraction. Bite situations you might actually encounter in your job within your SOP. Learn how to get the dog to target. Get him to bite similar position to knpv. Up in the arm pit. Down in the legs. It's a tall order, but teach him to bite where you want him to. With the targeting he has now it may take a bit to get him to go to useful targets. Get him on a suit and hidden sleeve. Start getting your decoy to build the dog up while teaching the targeting. Test the dog once he has a fair shot at passing. If he fails an honest test, wash him. All the videos show is a dog basically biting a guy with a tug or a guy making a dog miss the bite. At his age he should look much different, but it could be attributed to poor training. I am not judging. A dog that doesn't work can get you killed, though. Good luck.



butch wellington said:


> What should I do to challenge him?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> You are right, I would not keep him, Jack. he would get a fair chance with me but if he didn't shape up he would be out the door. Its not even as much for KNPV reasons as the fact that I would want to sell any dog I have trained into law enforcement and this dog just doesn't have what it takes in my eyes to keep his handler safe when needed. I would not dream of keeping a dog that would be a half measure at best and that "might" be there when push came to shove.


I don't understand why would you not keep a dog who is so pretty, isn't that all that matters?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't understand why would you not keep a dog who is so pretty, isn't that all that matters?



The day I keep a dog in my kennel because its so pretty is the day I walk of the field and quit training all together and take up knitting as a hobby :lol:

Dogs nae need to be pretty to be great workers. Rather have an ugly dog that is there when needed then a pretty pretty boy that leaves his handler standing with his d**k in his hand, wondering why his dog made it quicker to the car than he did. 

Besides... as ugly as a dog might be, if hes a good worker and reliable then he only gets better looking in my eyes


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Ben, i take it you are being just a little bit sarcastic?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Butch....

Do you have any input regarding certification? Based on what I am seeing you guys are training for certification (not your fault) and it is starting to show in the dog. It will eventually (if not already) show in the dog on the street and it could get you hurt or worse. 

I will preface this by saying that I am biased base on my association with NAPWDA but I do believe that our certification requirements are as "real world" as they can be and still cover all of the components required to protect the department from liability. 

In our aggression certification we will wear suite to accommodate the different biting preferences trained into the dogs... There is no encouragement to bite one area over another. (I love back bites  )


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I will preface this by saying that I am biased base on my association with NAPWDA but I do believe that our certification requirements are as "real world" as they can be and still cover all of the components required to protect the department from liability.
> 
> In our aggression certification we will wear suite to accommodate the different biting preferences trained into the dogs... There is no encouragement to bite one area over another. (I love back bites  )


USPCA does actually give the handler/decoy the option of using hidden sleeves, hidden suits or hidden jackets during certifications.

Ang


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> Ben, i take it you are being just a little bit sarcastic?


I wanted to see if she would get mad.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> I wanted to see if she would get mad.



Alice doesn't get mad. She gets even! 8-[ :grin:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Alice doesn't get mad. She gets even! 8-[ :grin:


 She doesn't get even...she gets ahead!:-o


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## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

*Hi Butch, 
I would like to ask for clarification. Being a Service Dog Owner for 14 years I admit to confusion. Harley alerts me to obstacles, changes in terrain and exercises Intelligent Disobedience when asked to guide me across a street. 
Below you stated that the pup is a Service Dog.
Do you mean a dog individually trained to mitigate a disability of an individual that is disabled? The U.S. D.O.J.'s definition of a Service Dog?
Or do you mean a working dog trained to do patrol, suspect apprehension, explosives/narcotics detection?
Thanks
Wayne And Harley


*


butch wellington said:


> I think his health is fine, was examined by our vet in November when we got him. I brush his teeth daily and see no evidence of any tooth or gum issues. He is a service dog and we don't do alot of break aways but we do have to do them for the uspca certification and so we do alot more of them when we are getting ready to certify. I dont think he has had any muzzle work, when I first started putting a muzzle on him he would fight it like he hadn't had one on before. For a while I made him wear it back and forth to work to get him use to it. I then tried to do a little muzzle work with him with my decoy ( who is experienced in Imuzzle work) but the dog wouldn't stay engaged, so we stopped and figure would pick it back up as he got a little bolder. He had only been with us a couple of months and we didn't want to stress him too much at first. Only tried the muzzle work because he has plenty of bite drive but when he couldn't bite quit engaging so we figure we would let him settle in and get more relaxed with the decoy before picking it back up again. I just assumed it was because of his age, the other 2 K9's I had were 2 years old when we got them and have never had this kind of issue. The one thing I did forget to mention was it's almost always his first bite that he bounces off of which there again just made me think it was a young dog not being able to concentrate and then after the initial nerves had settled down would lock on. But I would think by now he would have figured it out. Thanks!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> I wanted to see if she would get mad.





Bob Scott said:


> Alice doesn't get mad. She gets even! 8-[ :grin:





Howard Knauf said:


> She doesn't get even...she gets ahead!:-o


All this speculation :lol:



I just didn't want to state the obvious answer to Ben's question!

All my dogs have always been naturaly beautiful and pretty... just like their owner. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

hes going in with is eyes closed ... watch him and you will see


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## butch wellington (Jan 29, 2014)

Wow! I started this thread just thinking I had a young dog with a timing issue at running speeds, but now you guys got me about afraid to walk the yards. I’m not near as knowledgeable as you guys so you will have to bear with me. Ang is correct I didn’t have a say with this dog. We had a reputable vender that we used since the late 90’s who would exchange dogs without hesitating and could do this within a week or two. Which worked out well for us because of our environment, a lot of dogs that work well on the streets were too edging on the inside. (I work for the dept of corrections) My particular institution has around 1,000 inmates that are in a dormitory style setting so a calm social dog is a must due to law suits. They decided to bid this new dog out instead of going back to our normal vender. It took 3 months to get the first one and within the first hour I could see he wouldn’t make it. The chaos was too much for him. This dog took another 3 months to get and no he is not the dog I would have pick but nothing seems to bother him and the few things that do he gets over in no time and we checked him when we got him and didn’t have any issues with him engaging but after reading your posts I put my a decoy in a suit and he threw a 30 gallon metal trash can (not a cheap Wal-Mart version) but a heavy institutional one, threw chairs on him, rolled over him on the ground and up on a table and nothing would knock this dog off the bite. However I think we did find the issue, he would bite nothing but the arm, no matter if you offered him an area and kept the arms where he couldn't get them he wouldn’t bite and just kept trying to get to an arm. I put the decoy in a corner and had him tuck his arms up inside to where the dog couldn’t bite where he wanted and got him bite the back of the bicep, and then had him go behind a door and stick nothing but a leg out. The dog didn’t want to bite it but once he did we let him drag the decoy out and I figure he would move to the arm once he could but he didn’t so I’m guessing it’s just the way he was taught. I guess I should have caught it but the first few months was getting him use to the environment and getting him imprinted for narcotics and try to get ready for the narcotic certification and then went to getting him ready for the police dog 1 certification. Thus all the runaways. Brian I asked the decoy about his eyes and he says they are open the whole time. He says the only time he closes them is he will blink when you go over his head with something.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Still assume he's a liability until you teach him what he needs to know. Get outside help if you can. Sounds like you have a decent dog if he can learn to bite people instead of equipment.

General advice. Don't go full throttle on him like you did testing him with trash can. Testing is done for now. Train and Go slow. Basically you have an adult with some things that should have been addressed between 6 months and now and werent. 

Back tie. Teach him legs. Have your decoy lay down and present the leg sideways then stand up once he's biting. Lift him off after a bit. Lay down and repeat. Third or fourth bite in the session, stand up and present at about 45 degrees. 

There is so much that goes into this its hard to explain it all. Back tension, head turned outside on the bite, etc. Things that can help teach him to do it right when he is off the back tie later on.

Good luck. Realize you always need a back up plan and that your inmates may be on this site reading about you and your dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> The day I keep a dog in my kennel because its so pretty is the day I walk of the field and quit training all together and take up knitting as a hobby :lol:
> 
> Dogs nae need to be pretty to be great workers. Rather have an ugly dog that is there when needed then a pretty pretty boy that leaves his handler standing with his d**k in his hand, wondering why his dog made it quicker to the car than he did.
> 
> Besides... as ugly as a dog might be, if hes a good worker and reliable then he only gets better looking in my eyes


Can you knit?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Ben, i take it you are being just a little bit sarcastic?


 Maybe he can't knit :-k


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Can you knit?


Yes 8-[


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> This is a PSD right? Get rid of that damn sleeve! I HATE seeing a patrol dog swing wide to grab a sleeve. He should be targeting the body on a runoff. Do you have a live street engagement yet?
> 
> You're probably using a barrel sleeve and it's size just does not fit this dog. Get a Suit or soft sleeve if you have to have one. JMO from viewing these videos. The dog doesn't appear to have confidence issues, just training issues.


 +1

Thomas Barriano mentioned the Bungee line. We used this for a Rottweiler - no great distance to helper obviously.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I must confess, I cannot sew or knit.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You don't look as though you can:roll:


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Hahahahaha


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

after looking at the videos .. I would have a problem with that dog as it is now,,,, I see many things I do not like personally and things I know can cause failure on the street. Most of which has been pointed out by others. I wouldnt be working him on a sleeve like that ... that can be a BIG problem when its go time. Id like to see him working on a suit up close in closed quarters under some pressure. In the video when the decoy was showing him some civil action I cringed honestly .. 
Best of luck with him.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

How did this get onto knitting? looooooooooool 

I can't knit, I have tried, I don't have the patience.


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