# Pronging too soon...



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What training issues have you seen from puppies that have been exposed to the prong/pinch collar too soon? We tested a 6 month old GSD that had early OB with the prong, OMG! When it came to the end of the long line for bite work, it hollered. That's *yelled* for you northen folk!!!

I also saw early dog aggression and handler issues. How reasonable is it to think that if the prong is removed and food/verbal rewards are used, we can speed up the recovery and go into PPD foundamentals?

A nice young female but excess training issues are sending me the old *RED FLAG*...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's hard to say Howard from what you've written but I'd hazard a guess and say there's something missing in the dog and not in the use of the collar although I've never needed (??) a prong for a young pup. In retrospect it wouldn't have harmed and maybe stopped unwished for quicker.

The prong collar isn't a folter instrument unless the female is an Amazonian Bitch with sadistic intentions. The sharpened prong works like teeth and should normally stop a normal dog from doing what it shouldn't. However, drive can make oblivious to pain and some hairy individuals with thick hair around their necks might need longer prongs to even feel the priick

I know someone whose pup at 5 months started crittering and disappeared for a while - bang on e-collar. Crittering stopped.

It's all a question of what you want as someone wrote recently. And how quick you want it.

It's all very well to say a pup doesn't need this or that but some pups come into the world as monsters and stay that way unless they're checked. Here, "good boy" treatment with lots of reward might put the handler in the lion's den.

Once a pup gains success in doing what it wanted to, you have a "2" on your back that is hard to eliminate.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have to add something here:

It's not the toughness of the correction that counts but the correctness delivered to correct timing!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

"A nice young female" is that the dog or the owner????

BTW, handler/dog issues are usuallly warranted - press the button without feeling / knowing the dog / pull the prong chain without knowing / feeling the dog and retaliation is sure to come - luckily, the errant dog handler doesn't check when and that is when I laugh myself silly.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What training issues have you seen from puppies that have been exposed to the prong/pinch collar too soon? We tested a 6 month old GSD that had early OB with the prong, OMG! When it came to the end of the long line for bite work, it hollered. That's *yelled* for you northen folk!!!
> 
> I also saw early dog aggression and handler issues. How reasonable is it to think that if the prong is removed and food/verbal rewards are used, we can speed up the recovery and go into PPD foundamentals?
> 
> A nice young female but excess training issues are sending me the old *RED FLAG*...


Howard in my 16 years of bite sport I personally haven't met one single ppd handler that wasn't using yank and crank compliance training. The majority of who are trying to use there dogs as peckerstrechers as if banging on there dog could be a substitute for Viagra:^o
It sounds to me like you may be the exception and possibly have a grasp of a certain level of dog training and understanding though Jeff hasn't been able to get you to produce any video evidence of it YET :lol:
Since it doesn't sound like you are going to conform to sport any time soon you could be a shining humane example of the ppd crew.:idea: :?::?:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Someone please help threat boy learn to teach a dog, maybe charge him some money for the lessons that he so desperatley needs.

Delaware is not a southern state. Figured you might need help from a northerner on your geography.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

we need a "pass the popcorn" smiley on this forum!! 

If 6 months is too young, what age is right if you are not going to administer the correction in a timely manner and for the right reason? I've seen people over correcting for minor "infractions", along the lines of the "pecker stretcher" concept that Mike made. I've used a prong on my dog since 5 months, mainly for controlled walking, and then later for correction purposes during training. It doesn't bother him a bit, but he only gets a correction when he needs it as a last resort.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dan Long said:


> we need a "pass the popcorn" smiley on this forum!!
> 
> If 6 months is too young, what age is right if you are not going to administer the correction in a timely manner and for the right reason? I've seen people over correcting for minor "infractions", along the lines of the "pecker stretcher" concept that Mike made. I've used a prong on my dog since 5 months, mainly for controlled walking, and then later for correction purposes during training. It doesn't bother him a bit, but he only gets a correction when he needs it as a last resort.


I have all but quit using the prong for corrections. Pain loads and builds aggression in my dog so I use it as a building tool stimulator putting power and flash in his obedience "another subject I'm not going to bother explaining".
For corrections I mark with a no and use the fur saver with a tab lift him a little making him uncomfortable. Then we start again he understands.
For those that think the tenacity of the German Shepherd of old is gone use a pinch and a strong unfair correction on my little sport dog and you will see it is alive and well.:lol:


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Howard,

Seems the first owner may have been taking the "I am pack Commander" approach and you are leaning to a pack "leader" technique?

I think your specific question was, _"I also saw early dog aggression and handler issues. How reasonable is it to think that if the prong is removed and food/verbal rewards are used, we can speed up the recovery and go into PPD foundamentals?"_

The best thing about dogs is that no matter how stupid the human is you really can't break them. That means most all problems are fixable, if the human is just a little bit smarter than the dog. So I would think your answer is, very reasonable. 

The best training tip I ever got was, when you have a problem take two steps back and start over, maybe _you _wont make the same mistake that caused the problem in the first place. 

Course that was before internets, prongs, Electric collars and such _Now_ stuff, when mostly all we had to work with was patience, but I think you'll fix her fine.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I use a prong on my Bouviers but there has almost never been a time when one was put on the Border Collies. This girl took her dog to OB class and the instructor required the dog to have a prong because it was "aggressive." Undertand it doesn't weigh 50 pounds and at 6 months of age isn't that hard...

Gillian, Butch and Mike good points here. I have seen markers used and have used them. I have done some yank and crank, but more can be done and with less aggression towards the handler IF the team works as one. When this pup hit the line it yelled as if it had its foot stepped on. I did a double take to make sure the woman didn't have her hooked to the prong collar, she didn't. It was a self "correction" but as the lady said the prong was used alot. The pup seems very dog aggressive and I wonder if that wasn't from the OB class?

NO need for videos here. I don't want someone else using my image to support their lack of do! See the pics and enjoy the stills...Mike, somedays just a little change in an approach seems to make a big difference. Gillian you are "trying" to be nice  Keep up the good work.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> "A nice young female" is that the dog or the owner????


THE DOG...the owner was nice too!!!But not *THAT* nice...[-X


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

My dog was pretty dog aggressive. He's still not 100% trustworthy around other dogs, but it's come a long way. I worked on it by going to as many obedience classes as I could. Luckily a friend of mine runs an ob school and lets me take any classes I want for free. I must have done the beginner ob class 15 times. Not because the dog needed the basics that much, but to get him standing in a line with 15 obnoxious 5 month old pups. I got to the point where I could leave him off lead the entire time. I still go up there once in a while on a Saturday morning and work him with the other dogs just to keep him thinking about it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Wrong post!
I'm old ya know!


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