# Vocalizing and Conflicting Drives



## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

I have a 3.5 year old Dobe bitch that just started bite work about 6 months ago. Mostly we have been doing a lot of prey work, and grip work.

Her grip on the sleeve is really nice. Very full, hard and WAS calm.

This is the problem I am having. I really thought she would do the work only through prey. She is a prey monster and I have never seen a defensive bone in her body.

Well, lately working with the helper there has been some vocalizing on the sleeve. First, it was growling which really surprised me, and then some whining when we added pressure(no stick hits yet). Her grip on the sleeve has never changed. It is still really hard and full, but when we slip her the sleeve, she won't carry it. She either thrashes it, which she never did before, or, she will spit it out and start barking at the helper.

She used to carry no problem in that stupid Sch circle that everyone seems to do LOL:?: I have no idea why this is even done, but she used to do the exercise just fine. 

Now, she is not interested in leaving the helper, she just wants the game to resume as soon as she is slipped the sleeve.

This is causing conflict with her and I as I am making her run this little circle and she doesn't wan to and it is creating stress I think. Our TD is adamant that we do this to unload her.

I want her to be able to unload as now it seems she is taking this a lot more serious than she ever did before and is flip flopping between prey and defense. I can't seem to onload the stress though, and then she tends to get a little hectic. I would settle for her just holding the sleeve clamly, but she won't do that anymore...

I don't want to ruin a great dog with my lack of experience, and my club isn't all the helpful in terms of offering any solutions, so I thought I would ask here. I know it is so hard to comment without seeing the dog, but I appreciate any input.

Thanks!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

She is growing up and taking it a little more serious, nothing wrong with that. I went through the exact same thing with my dog at one point, he wouldn't carry (age 5mo-8), now he will hold it all day if I let him...unless I do full circle back to the decoy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So your Dobermann acts like a Dobermann. Wow, what to do, as it doesn't want to act like a GSD anymore. LOL

I think you should just continue to train the dog and stop worrying if the dog doesn't want to act like a GSD.

How is your OB ????

How is your tracking ???
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I agree with your TD, she is stressed and needs to unload, instead of running in a circle, run away from the helper, that should make her holding on to the sleeve longer, and giving her a chance to calm down, he could also putting on too much pressure too quick and not enough prey bite making her more focus on the man than the equipment.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Sometimes I wonder if "Killing" the sleeve in the presence of the decoy is nothing but avoidance in some dogs in certain circumstances. Sometimes she kills the sleeve, other times she refocuses on the decoy? Maybe too much pressure too soon? Or is it just too late at night for figuring stuff out?

Howard


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Haha Yeah, maybe she is just being a Dobe. My first sport dog, so I really have no idea. My club is all GSD though, so I think they are leading me to believe that her behavior is abnormal...maybe it is just that they have never worked a Dobe before.

Her obedience is excellent, and tracking, well, it's okay, but she had a poor foundation, so that's my fault. Thanks for the input, I will have to tell the club to quit treating her like a GSD.

Wish I knew better, but I guess I will learn via trial and error


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Videotape a session and lets see if she is just being a Dobermann.

I have seen more than a few Dobermanns that because they did not get early work, ACTUALLY act like Dobermanns and not GSD's.

Either way, you just work through it. The carry is not really important for every stinking dog, that is a Sch thing for sure. Stressing over the dog not carrying the sleeve is silly. : )

I am sure that your helper will figure a way to get her just right.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree, video it, yet more then likely a Doberman being a Doberman.

Not every breed works like a herder, not every breed should be worked like a herder.

Just my two cents...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I think Jeff and Wayne are right, dobe being a dobe. I also think that there may have been too much presure too soon, but I don't know that. I would like to see a video, this would help us all out.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Okay, here is a video I took last night. We put a leash on the sleeve so we could keep back pressure on the sleeve, that way if she tried to spit it out right away, she would loose it. That actually worked right away with her as after the first time we saw that she was holding it better.

Also, i tend to agree with the too much pressure comment. Not in this video, as this is not my TD, but in the past, the TD has put a lot of stress into her bite work by working her a lot in defense which I don't think she really needs. So, here is the video link....thanks for taking the time to watch!!

You can hear some vocalizing here too, same as what I was describing. This is my first Dobe, so I have no idea what she is doing LOL If she is being a Dobe, great...Guess I need to learn what that looks like!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oV5A6su5hY


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

One thing I would change, and that is just me is that you are all over this dog. I am sure someone told you to do this, but you are way too much.

I would have you back off on the line so she is a bit further from you, and then have you come up the line to 6 feet or so, and the three of you do the carry, although I think you are wasting valuable training time with it.

So the dog doesn't want to walk in circles like an idiot. Let her drop it.

I will watch this again, as I know that I am missing something. Kinda doing the insomniac thing lately, haven't slept in a few days for some reason.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff is right...too on top of the dog. Also, is this your regular training area? If not, the echo and slicker floor may be causing an issue.

Secondly....I assume you are teaching the bark and hold here? The decoy is still exhibiting a little pressure even in this video so I'm wondering why all the barking.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Just my take yet tape it again without the breaks. 

I can not develop a full picture of what is happening with the dog based only upon what you have provided, a TON of information is lost when the video stops everytime the dog gets towards the end of an individual exercise, so much is told after that.... let the dog work as you normally do, don't change becouse you know it is going on video, you defeat the purpose.

Let us see the whole thing... just a few minutes, yet everything from when she walks out to when she goes back to her crate.

Wayne


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Yep, someone told me to do that LOL I think I am just interfering, and she doesn't like it at all. I have had to stand over her as when I get too close, she moves away from me.

She has been in the facility before, several times but not to work any bite work. This has happened even on our training field, so I don't think it is the location.

I will have to let the girl know that was taping to do that. She probably didn't know I was going to be using it to problem solve, so I will let her know what to do, and try to get a better one.

I was told, again, probably misinformed, that she should hold this sleeve, so this is why I am doing it LOL Seriously though, I find she gets a little too worked up if she doesn't have a minute to calm down, so that is why I have actually bought into the idea of her holding the sleeve.

Thanks for the input!


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

This is in response to your first post and having watched the video.

Don't worry about running the dog with the sleeve. Some dogs do it/need it and other dogs don't.

Your dog seems to me to be vocalizing in the video because nothing is happening. It's just holding on to the sleeve but feels that it's not influencing the helper. There's no fight or escape just a static situation. I'd say make something happen, have the dog try to stop the decoy from escaping and also have the decoy fight the dog but llet the dog understand that it's winning in some way. I believe that's what the dog wants to do.

I understand why you're making the bites so long but I don't see a point in it. Instead I'd try do out and bite again out and bite again in relatively quick succession. Have the helper give up make the dog think it won, make her let go then the helper gets animated again. I think this will make make more sense to the dog than just holding on. It is a dobe after all.

I understand why you're on top of the dog all the time, you think you're going to calm it down. I don't believe this does anything in this situation.

Lastly I'd try working her on a flat collar just to change it up and see what happens if you haven't done so already.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Awsome Emilio, thanks for the suggestions. I sort of thought that was the problem....all this static exercise is doing nothing for her. She likes to fight with the helper and is quiet when that is happening. It seems to be how everyone here works dogs though for some reason. This whole being a newbie thing is ultra frustrating when there isn't anyone around that has any knowledge to help!!

The more I learn, the more I see that some of the TD's here aren't very knowledable. Mostly, they just regurgitate the same info they learned on one or two dogs, and then train others with that limited information. Well, I have started to ask questions, and now my TD doesn't really have any answers!! 

Thanks for the input...we will certainly give that a try, hopefully with some better results!!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

That looks like good helper work to me. I would be curious to see what the dog does on a back tie with the handler out of the picture. Conflict can come from the handler as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I want to make sure that you know I am not saying that your helper is an idiot or anything like that. It would be great if he was on here to tell us what he is seeing as well.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Tamara, I'm just curious as to whether you guys have done any post work or not? One thing that comes to my mind in watching the video (and I do this too  ) is that it looks like you are moving forward and then back and then forward alot when holding back the line. I am a novice to the sport, so maybe others can comment here on this better than I but what we've done at our club when doing this type of work (if we are not using the actual post) is that the handler stays planted/still while "posting" the dog and the helper is the one who moves in/moves out etc. Then when the dog gets the bite, the handler does some holding back on the line while the helper works the dog, and then the handler works his or her way in after the dog has been worked a bit before we have them go into a sit/hold position (eg after the dogs pulls back a few time, while the dog is in the pulling back motion, then we facilitate them into a sit). Not sure if this makes sense to anyone?

Good thread!


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

I have only done a few sessions of post work. I have been told one hundred times to stand the f$*& still LOL I seem to have a problem  I am aware of this though, especially more so after having watched the video where I thought I actually was standing still LOL Thanks for picking up on that though!!

I suppose post work is totally fine too. I could certainly try some post work with me totally out of the picture. I do know that she tends to have as much conflict with me as with everything else. I don't think it is any one factor at work here. Is a bungee line the desirable tie out for post work?

I will also try to see if Dave will join in on the thread. I will email him tonight. Good suggestion. I think he is better than I thought he was. I have only worked with him a few times, but he has a pretty good sense about him, and can read the dogs quite well. So far, I am pretty happy with him.

I would prefer to do my bitework with him, but then what of the club? Do I just not do any bitework there? I would like to still be able to work at my home field!! I think I need to decide the direction I will take with Flair's training, and then try to articulate it to the helpers at my club. I just don't want to be doing one thing with Dave, and then the exact opposite at the club, as I have a funny feeling that will be what happens!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I would like to say thanks for posting the video. For another newbie, the video and the great interpetative comments are a great learning tool for learning to read the helper and the dog and even how the handler can negatively or positively influence the situation.

Terrasita


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

> I have been told one hundred times to stand the f$*& still LOL I seem to have a problem


LOL Its easier said than done isn't it! I do find that actually using the post is far easier for myself, as I do physically have a hard time holding Jax back and she is only about 70 lbs! In addition to that, I am thinking that I would like to see Jax go back on the post. We've lots of issues to work through, but on the suggestion of an excellent trainer who lives outside our region that myself and a couple other club members have been working with, I really can see the benefit of it in regards to improving grip etc. 

I can completely appreciate what you are saying re: working with club, different approaches etc. We have had these discussions over and over at our club as well. We keep adding more tools to the toolbox so to speak, so it is a matter of figuring out which ones will work for both us and our dogs as a team...To compound all of it even more so, I think it is even more difficult when one is relatively new to the sport (as I am)  and just trying to figure out the most basic of things!


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

> Is a bungee line the desirable tie out for post work?


Apparently we used to have a bungee type line years ago that someone "unbungee'd" :-k so it's of no use and I'm therefore not sure how to use one of those properly. I'm sure someone else with more know-how than me can answer this better, but at present time at our club we use a heavy duty line with a heavy duty quick release snap for the post and then we keep a lead line attached to dog as well. 

When starting each guarding session, we usually have the handler stay close by the dog and someone who helps to control the line standing aways behind the dog and handler to help prevent the line from bouncing up too high (and causing the dog to flip back if that makes sense). We are very careful to remind each other to walk our dog close to the end of the line at the start of each new guarding start so the flip back thing and hard jerk doesn't happen once the dog is released to guard/pas auf on the helper. Does that make sense?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I don't trust a bungee or any of the things supposedly designed for this sort of thing that I've seen for sale, like this bit of nonsense.



















I like to use a garage door spring. Use the right weight spring for the dog. Too strong a spring and you lose the cushioning effect, to light and the dog can straighten it out.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Drat, I went over the allocated edit time with dial up on my end! 

Anyhows, I just wanted to show you a couple pics from some post work to give you an idea of what I was trying to explain. 

Pic 1 you can see Jax in guarding mode, one neutral/non-threating helper is off to the side; I am behind Jax (actually holding the line in my left hand) and not too close to her but ready to move in to guide her into a sitz & hold once the helper has given her the bite and she has done some pulling back etc; the helper (not visible in the first pic) is agitating her. The line, as you can see is very taut in both pics, but as soon as she wins the sleeve, she will go into a sit & hold with some slack on the line. Then after the out, there will still be a bit of slack, but not much and I will hold the line to prevent the line snapping too hard effect. then I move back a bit. Hope the visuals help a bit??! (And yes, in the second pic her bite is too high on the sleeve but I won't tell anyone if no-one else doesn't  )

Would love to hear others' thoughts and ideas on post work and/or any feedback  




















OK...no more distracting myself...back to work I go!


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Wow, those are some contraptions LOL I think the post at our club just has two quick release ends, and a spring, and then some rope, but I would have to go take a closer look. Likely when the 4 feet of snow we have here melts LOL

Thanks for sharing the pics Nicole. Yeah, Flair is about 70 pounds right now, usually 75 in the summer when in shape  but I really have a hard time holding still. I am always leaning and then I am off balance. God, maybe if I have more co-ordination, I would get better results LOL 

Seriously though, I will try more post work with her. I have gotten a ton of great suggestions from this forum, and also some Dobe friends that don't live in the area, but have reviewed the video. I am learning that Dobes are so much different in terms of training needs, so I need to learn to stand my ground when it comes to working Flair. I tend to say ok, let's try, instead of suggesting something that will be better for Flair. Part is just my insecurity in my newbie knowledge....not sure I am always saying the right thing etc...


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

If your TD have a good record of taking dogs to the highest level of your sport, I suggest you listen and trust him rather than people you don't even know on the internet, talk to him about your concern and see what he have to say, rather than shooting video and post in on the internet and let people (some probably have never got a title on a dog) critique his work, he might think that it's time to step up and put more pressure on the dog and so he needs you to release stress, he works the dog, he knows the dog better than anybody on the internet watching a few clips, everybody have a different way of training, even though it is different, sometime the end result is the same, if I was your TD, and you come up to me and tell me that people on the internet think you should train another way, running with the sleeve is a waste of time... or whatever, I would tell you that you are welcome to go train with people on the internet since you believe in them and not me.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Interesting opinion, but actually, our TD has not titled many dogs to a very high level. What would you consider to be many dogs? And, just b/c they have titled, doesn't mean they did it well!!

The world of Sch here is very small, so sometimes, you get that position by default. He is probably one of the most experienced in the club, but that means nothing!

Personally, I do not agree with many of the methods in his obedience training, which I am very experienced in, much more so than protection. So, the fact that his methods are not effective in obedience leads me to believe that he likely doesn't have a great handle on the protection aspect of things either.

I appreciate you defending the TD, but in this case, he has no idea how to work a Dobe. I don't think we have ever had a Dobe out at our club, never mind one that has titled, so I think he is sailing in unchartered waters here. Not to mention he doesn't like Dobermans, so he really isn't putting in any effort to help with our problems. If it can't be trained like a GSD, than he isn't that interested.

Lastly, just because I post a video and ask for some advice, doesn't mean I am taking it as the gospel. If I was intelligent enough to realize that there was a problem in my dogs work when no one else noticed, I would like to believe that I would also be smart enough to take the advice with a grain of salt and do what works best for my dog.

Oh, and in no way am I saying my TD is stupid or a bad trainer or anything else. I do know though, that he has no idea how to work my dog, and I am sure he would be open to suggestions at this point, as he certainly doesn't seem to have any ideas.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Follow your instincts...


















Unless you're crazy!


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Tamara is there any one else in the club who can post your dog? I do my own, because I am fanatical about it taking the slack out and putting pressure on the line to help the dog with his grip etc. But many of the women in our club use another member to work the line so you can be there with your dog and not have to worry about keeping still. 

We train inside as well during the winter and we have no post to tie up to so as a benefit we work each others lines when needed.

Also I agree with most of the people on here a little too much involvment on your part. It looked like you are trying to cradle for calming, but you were on top of your dog rather than on the side (this can be very stressfull for a dog). I have always been told this is a big no no. Maybe you can get to the right ot left and try to cradle from under the jaw while stroking her side rather than her head. 

Having said this I have no idea why you are doing this, but if your trainer said to and if he is good listen to him.

I work an off breed and I always say a dog is a dog your dog may be a different breed, but ALL dogs are different. There are many different temperments in the GSD and our TD uses different approaches to work these dogs but nothing different for the boxers or the bulldogs.... Many bulldoggers make the excuse well he doesn't know how to work my dog. I say bullsh!t. Any decent helper can do it. It is your dog you are in charge of your training. 

Don't let the Dobe thing be an excuse. You have a very nice dog and a good helper you just need to learn to work together and that takes some time.

Good Job.

Julie


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Thanks Julie....I have TRIED to get beside her and I am just not strong enough to hold her. Flair just whips away from me. I just don't think this holding thing is worth fighting her over LOL but time will tell. I will have to get someone else to help me...there is another facility we train in that has a big beam that we use for a post, so likely I will be there this week, and will try that.

As for the Breed thing, well, I hate for it to sound like an excuse, and when I first started training this summer with Flair, I would have never said that. I have noticed a difference in the way a Dobe works from the way a GSD works. Dobes also hate repetition, so what we can do 5 times with another dog, Flair gets frustrated with after a short time. She learns very fast, and the club doesn't seem to like to progress too much. I realize we don't want to skip any steps here, but we need to keep progressing, however small the steps in order to keep her interested, and not frustrated. This is just what I have been learning about Flair lately.

I guess that's what's so neat about dogs, and dog sport. There is always something to learn. New dog, new learning curve


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

You know your dog better than anyone. She may learn fast, but she must get her foundation in properly on the bite work or you can develope serious problems later on when you start putting in the control.

How many times a week are you working with the helper? I would suspect that she will settle in and start progressing to the next level before you know it.

My TD is working all of the young dogs on defense and has been the last 6-8 sessions. It is kind of frusterating because I want to move on to finish the bark & hold training but I know what my helper is doing will better our performance in the end so I have to be patient. I just can't wait to get my dog out of the stupid harness.

I have never been able to cradle my AB near the helper. No problem he used to carry but now he just spits is out bc he likes the fight. My TD never liked bulldogs either but my guy has his respect now. 

I was wandering what club you are training with? The helper work looks decent enough. It is hard enough to find helpers. I say give him a nice bottle of beer when he is done and a big THANK YOU. 

Julie


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

I hear you on the foundation, I certainly don't want to rush, but I do want to see some progression. We have been working lately, about once a week, but are getting a location so we can get out at least twice starting this week...I hope 

I train with the GSD Club in Edmonton. Good group of people, just not sure they have a clue what to do with Flair LOL

The helper working Flair in the video is not my club TD, he is a friend of mine that doesn't belong to the club. Long story there...but he does a decent job. I would like to see a few things different from both him and I, but we have discussed that, so hopefully we can work with some of our ideas next session.

What I would like, is to develop Flair with Dave, the helper in the video as much as possible. He has has the patience for Flair. Hopefully we will earn our respect at our club too


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

> I have TRIED to get beside her and I am just not strong enough to hold her. Flair just whips away from me.


I had a similar problem with Jax for awhile so we worked on lots of repetition with doing the side thing with tug toys and the bite wedge away from the helper (eg at home, during obed etc) just to get her accustomed to coming into my side and sitting while hoilding (with me gently placing my hand under her mouth and light calm praise and calming strokes). This took alot of doing it over and over. Having her on the post helped with this too when it came to actually doing it in protection. I still have her come into my side on command pretty much every time we use the tug when doing even obed work. Out of the sit and hold position, I then mix it up between having her out, or I resume a quick tugging session, or I release her and let her run with it some more. This has really helped in preventing her from learning to anticipate, and like your dog, she gets bored with repeition too, so it mixes it up. So now she associates being at my side as a more self willing action rather than cohersive, if that makes any sense.

As for the helper having patience, I think this is so very crucial and I could not agree with you more! Jax can get quite annoying (not saying Flair is!) when her drive is super high (as you will bear witness to during the seminar I am sure  ), and I know she drives some people mental while I am waiting her out to calm, but any form of loud verbal or physical correction only escalates her behaviour. It can be hard for others to understand what something is like when they have not been in the same shoes :smile: 

I sure wish I had magical answers and solutions for all the issues I have in training! And trying to find what works for one particular dog over another is certainly not without its challenges...


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