# Diamond recall expands -- again



## Connie Sutherland

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/diamond-pet-foods-expands-voluntary-recall.html



"There have been two previous Diamond Pet Food recalls, one several days ago for Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover’s Soul Adult Light formula dry dog food and an earlier one for Diamond Naturals Lamb Meal & Rice."

"Pet owners who are unsure if the product they purchased is included in the recall, or who would like replacement product or a refund, may contact Diamond Pet Foods at 800-442-0402, 8 am – 6 pm EST, Monday through Friday, or visit http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...-expands-again-23814/www.diamondpetrecall.com "
from
http://www.northcountrygazette.org/2012/05/01/no_diamond/


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## Nancy Jocoy

I returned a bag of TOTW bison but have not heard back. It had a very bad off smell that even my husband (who can't seem to tell when milk has soured) noticed it. It was produced at the same plant with a March 13 Expiration date. 

I opened it a week after the recall and the TOTW is not on the recall list.

Swapped it out for a bag of Fromm.


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## Howard Gaines III

As a FORMER Diamond user...I am no longer supporting this company by using any of their products. There have been recalls in the past, but I'm not talking chances with my dogs. Sorry about your product!


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## Nancy Jocoy

I am done. Not sure whether I will stay with Fromm or go to Origen....or another. 

Pup doing well on the Fromm though and it has very very low ash levels. (like 4-6% in all their foods)
When I smelled the TOTW that was enough for me to back off.


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## Mario Fernandez

This is the 3rd recall in less than 18 months. Amazes me that AAFCO does not take action against Diamond


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## Edward Egan

and people wonder why I feed raw!


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## Nancy Jocoy

Edward Egan said:


> and people wonder why I feed raw!


Well, I am not sure I think any higher of the USDA and what is in the food WE buy. JMO.


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## Adam Swilling

Howard Gaines III said:


> As a FORMER Diamond user...I am no longer supporting this company by using any of their products. There have been recalls in the past, but I'm not talking chances with my dogs. Sorry about your product!


 I'm with you Howard. I went to feeding raw for the morning meal and kibble in the evening. I HAD been feeding Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice for a long time. I kept noticing inconsistentcies in the color, smell, etc. I finally bit the bullet and switched to the Natural Balance Synergy formaula about 2 weeks before the recall. I feel like I dodged a bullet. I'm paying twice as much, but I love this food and so do the dogs. The only thing that bothers me now is I believe Diamond processes some of the NB lines.


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## Don Turnipseed

I may be mistaken here, but, wasn't too long ago the biggest recall ever was with Mars.....they manufacture all kinds of food for just about everyone.


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## Josh Smith

I live in SC and feed Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice. Checked my current bags and they are not listed in the recall. 

Not sure what you all are getting so riled up about. The company is issuing a voluntary recall based on their own quality testing. "No dog illnesses have been reported". Sounds like a company working hard to correct a problem. 

Instead of losing my mind and buying overpriced food or messing around with trying to make my own I am going to keep feeding Diamond and keep an eye on their recall site.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I live in SC as well and i was going to feed the non recalled bag of TOTW but it was an awful odor. We are also seeing products recalled a few weeks after the initial recall. With all the test results in the computer that should have been figured out much more rapidly.

And I LIVE in SC. I mean SC, where the labor is cheap and the workforce uneducated.

Food is made in batches. Why are they not lot testing the food BEFORE it is released? Even with that, Diamond says one thing on their web site that says it all:

"High Tech Quality Control is the best way to ensure product quality and safety" Ding ding ding they loose the GMP (good manufacturing practices) plaque. You BUILD quality into your processes not TEST it into your products. GMP 101. I had not read that before but that, alone, says they do not understand qulaity management and I am going elsewhere........to a vendor who performs HACCP or FMEA as part of process design.


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## Jerry Lyda

I don't think any dog deaths have accured with this recall but I think the reason is because the first recall had lots of deaths.After the first recall I stopped feeding it. You would think after the first recall they would watch and momitor better their standards.


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## Brian McQuain

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Well, I am not sure I think any higher of the USDA and what is in the food WE buy. JMO.


 
Yep. That why I grow/harvest most of my own food. Just filled my freezer with a lamb, as a matter of fact.


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## Brian McQuain

Josh Smith said:


> I live in SC and feed Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice. Checked my current bags and they are not listed in the recall.
> 
> Not sure what you all are getting so riled up about. The company is issuing a voluntary recall based on their own quality testing. "No dog illnesses have been reported". Sounds like a company working hard to correct a problem.
> 
> Instead of losing my mind and buying overpriced food or messing around with trying to make my own I am going to keep feeding Diamond and keep an eye on their recall site.


 
Those getting riled up probably care about their dog(s). I wouldnt poison coyotes with the crap kibble sold out there


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## Gerald Dunn

I'm changing but to what? I have three dogs 70-100 lbs and can not afford the $60 for 30 lbs dog food and have not outlet to get raw. So what do I go with, Old Roy, it has never had a recall!! What are you'll feeding??


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## Josh Smith

Brian McQuain said:


> Those getting riled up probably care about their dog(s). I wouldnt poison coyotes with the crap kibble sold out there


Coyotes would thrive on diamond foods.


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## Josh Smith

Gerald Dunn said:


> I'm changing but to what? I have three dogs 70-100 lbs and can not afford the $60 for 30 lbs dog food and have not outlet to get raw. So what do I go with, Old Roy, it has never had a recall!! What are you'll feeding??


Same here, not many other good affordable options.


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## Brian McQuain

Gerald Dunn said:


> I'm changing but to what? I have three dogs 70-100 lbs and can not afford the $60 for 30 lbs dog food and have not outlet to get raw. So what do I go with, Old Roy, it has never had a recall!! What are you'll feeding??


 
Why have dogs if you cant afford them?


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## Josh Smith

Brian McQuain said:


> Why have dogs if you cant afford them?


Why post if you don't have something helpful to say? Contribute or go play with your sheep.


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## Brian McQuain

Josh Smith said:


> Why post if you don't have something helpful to say? Contribute or go play with your sheep.


 
Seemed like a reasonable question to me. Its too hot outside for the sheep, so here I am.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Gerald Dunn said:


> I'm changing but to what? I have three dogs 70-100 lbs and can not afford the $60 for 30 lbs dog food and have not outlet to get raw. So what do I go with, Old Roy, it has never had a recall!! What are you'll feeding??


I am likewise frustrated because I have many clients that get hypnotized by the spinning ears of corn and wheat on the Beneful commercials and they insist they cannot do a higher quality food because "it is too expensive" and they don't understand how much more you have to feed. Diamond Naturals was my go to for those folks to recommend they get onto something better. I would try Healthwise, which is made by Natura. It's about $42 for a 35 lbs bag for the Chicken Meal & Rice. They have an active dog formulation as well that has a higher % of fat and protein, if that is what your dog does well on. I don't think as many people feed it because it has pretty plain packaging (no howling wolves or pictures of ingredients or other such things on the bag) so it is kind of assuming as it sits next to the EVO, Nature's Variety, and Wellness and so on.

I have visited the Natura plant in Fremont, Nebraska twice and you could eat off the floor in there. They sample and test each shipment of ingredients before they even allow it to unload into the factory. They also have a state of the art testing facility where they test not only their own food, but they will test food from other companies. I was upset when they were bought by P&G and wish they would have remained an independent company, but from what I have heard, P&G pretty much left them alone and it's business as usual. So I will continue to feed it (along with some supplemental raw).


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## Brian McQuain

I know a lot of the members in our club feed Natures Domain and like it. I guess its lower priced food as well


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## Don Turnipseed

Nature's Domain is manufactured by Diamond also.


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## Mario Fernandez

Don is right Nature Domain is the food at Costco and manufactured by Diamond. Majority of Diamonds food recall/issues (think 5 since 2005) are from the SC plant. 

Maren I feed Healthwise when I feed Kibble. I either feed their Performance or their Reduce weight. I like its Natura pet version of Iams. I also like CA Naural. Natura pet head quaters use to be in CA, before moving to NE. They would always be willing to donate bags of food for dog events. Their facility was spotless when I visited.


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## Charles Wrenn

*This is the email I received today!*

Dear Charles, 

Thank you for contacting us directly, and for your concern. 

Diamond Pet Foods did recall a batch of Diamond Naturals Lamb Meal & Rice, Diamond Puppy and Chicken Soup for the Pet Lovers Soul Adult Light Dog food. This was being done as a precautionary measure, as the product has the potential to be contaminated with salmonella. No illnesses have been reported. 

Taste of the Wild is not under any current recall


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## Gerald Dunn

Brian McQuain said:


> Why have dogs if you cant afford them?



so, how many kids can you afford :-\"


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## Brian McQuain

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nature's Domain is manufactured by Diamond also.


 
Ah. Thanks. Ill pass that along.


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## Brian McQuain

Gerald Dunn said:


> so, how many kids can you afford :-\"


 
I dunno...I dont have any. I have dogs. I can tell you that I can only afford one wife.


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## Gerald Dunn

Brian McQuain said:


> I dunno...I dont have any. I have dogs. I can tell you that I can only afford one wife.


had one of those, keep the kid


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## Brian McQuain

Gerald Dunn said:


> had one of those, keep the kid


 
lmao! damn


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## Josh Smith

Does anyone have any experience with Loyall? Tractor Supply sells their lamb and rice formula and it looks to be comparable to the Diamond Naturals. Here is the info:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/loyall-reg-lamb-rice-formula-23-14-dog-food-40-lb--1008991#product_tabs

Looks like their parent company is Nutrena. Has anyone tried this food?


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## Mario Fernandez

Nutrena is more know for horse feed...It is a sub company of Cargill. My friend used Loyall but preferred River Run and Marksman but voluntary stop using it after they had a recall...He is into bird dogs and was given some as a potential sponsor.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I guess you can pick your poison but if you look at the caloric content of these foods compared to a premium food you might find there is a point where you can feed a better product for the same amount of money.


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## Josh Smith

I don't think so. Loyall 343 k/Cal recommends 3.25 cups/day for a 60 lbs dog where health wise 428 k/Cal recommends 3 cups/day for a 60 lbs dog. Not much difference.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Calories are calories and, if anything, dogs will burn fat and protein more efficiently than carbohydrates.

Besides dog food is sold by weight not volume so that is what really matters. I guess the point I was making and should have made it by weight, not volume, was that sometimes it is more cost effective to feed a more expensive food. They vary greatly.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Josh Smith said:


> Does anyone have any experience with Loyall? Tractor Supply sells their lamb and rice formula and it looks to be comparable to the Diamond Naturals. Here is the info:
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/loyall-reg-lamb-rice-formula-23-14-dog-food-40-lb--1008991#product_tabs
> 
> Looks like their parent company is Nutrena. Has anyone tried this food?


If you are comparing it to Healthwise (like the Healthwise Lamb Meal & Oatmeal), I think Healthwise has better ingredients:

Lamb Meal
Oatmeal
Barley
Chicken Meal
Brown Rice
Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Natural Source of Vitamin E)
Pea Fiber
Flaxseed
Natural Flavors
Salt
Herring Oil
Potassium Chloride
Taurine
Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Betaine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid)
Minerals (Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate)
Lecithin
Rosemary Extract

Versus:

Lamb meal, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal, ground whole wheat, rice bran, poultry fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), dried plain beet pulp, natural chicken flavor, whole flaxseed, dried egg product, extracted hydrolyzed citric acid fermentation presscake dehydrated, menhaden fish meal, wheat middlings, bentonite, salt, vitamins: (vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), sodium hexametaphosphate, propionic acid (preservative), monocalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, minerals: (zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, zinc amino acid complex, iron amino acid complex, copper sulfate, manganese sulfate, manganese amino acid complex, ethylenediamine dihydriodide, sodium selenite), brewers dried yeast, yucca schidigera extract, mixed tocopherols (preservative), citric acid (preservative), rosemary extract

The Healthwise is a little higher in protein too. Ignore what the bag says for feeding amounts and look at the kcal/cup. For the calories, my male Malinois needs about 1800 kcal/day during times of moderate training and conditioning (I have found this through both calculations and how many cups of food he tends to need). He would need 4.2 cups of Healthwise Lamb Meal and 5.2 cups of the Loyall. Which would make a difference over time in money. This is why I go with Healthwise (though we do mix in other things from time to time as well). If you want me to calculate how much each would cost per day, I can do that too.


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## Don Turnipseed

My dogs will starve themselves before they will eat lamb and rice. It was developed for dogs with weak stomachs and is way to bland. Chicken and rice, or beef, has way more flavor and I have put feeders containing lamb and chicken next to each other and they never touch the lamb. Since my dogs are free fed, they just eat what they need. Manufacturer's of dog food have no idea what every dog does, nor, if they live indoors or outdoors so there is no way they can say what any animal needs per serving. Some people rely on that info anyway and would be lost without it. Calories are way less meaningfull than common sense.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Yeah my dogs not keen on lamb products.

You guys get roo meat in the states?? High in protein, need to supplement with fat source. Truly hormone, antibiotic etc. free.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I have never liked the results from lamb and rice on my dogs. I did some math though based on calories.

The Fromm Adult gold (I am feeding puppy gold right now) costs about $1.13/day to feed each of my dogs and has a very low ash content, and moderate protein for a food with grain. 26% actual - 24% guaranteed) The Loyall would cost about 80cents a day with ingredients not so nice. The Fromm can be shipped free to my door for $48 a bag.

If I want to hover around that same protein level as the Loyall (23%) I can feed Fromm Classic for less than $1 a day

http://frommfamily.com/products/classics/dog/dry/adult

I am still debating whether to stick with the Gold line or checkout another food. Most do not publish the ash so I will have to get from the vendor. I think that gives an idea of the quality of the meal and the stress on the kidneys. Evo, for example, was hard on my old guy and it has a whopping 11.5% ash content. Earthborn Holistic is very economical grain free-may be a bit high in calcium for a puppy though


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## Dominic Rozzi

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I have never liked the results from lamb and rice on my dogs. I did some math though based on calories.
> 
> The Fromm Adult gold (I am feeding puppy gold right now) costs about $1.13/day to feed each of my dogs and has a very low ash content, and moderate protein for a food with grain. 26% actual - 24% guaranteed) The Loyall would cost about 80cents a day with ingredients not so nice. The Fromm can be shipped free to my door for $48 a bag.
> 
> If I want to hover around that same protein level as the Loyall (23%) I can feed Fromm Classic for less than $1 a day
> 
> http://frommfamily.com/products/classics/dog/dry/adult
> 
> I am still debating whether to stick with the Gold line or checkout another food. Most do not publish the ash so I will have to get from the vendor. I think that gives an idea of the quality of the meal and the stress on the kidneys. Evo, for example, was hard on my old guy and it has a whopping 11.5% ash content. Earthborn Holistic is very economical grain free-may be a bit high in calcium for a puppy though


 
has anyone tried the blue seal foods i know some are heavy with the fillers butt hey do have a performance formula that a friend of mine uses and his dogs they do and look great---they also have a line called" by nature" seems to get good reviews---they have never had a recall i don't believe---just some thoughts


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tried Healthwise when it first came out on the market and our dogs representing three breeds had a tremendous amount of gas. Talked to the distributor and she said she had several bags returned for the same reason.

Terrasita


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## Gerald Dunn

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Tried Healthwise when it first came out on the market and our dogs representing three breeds had a tremendous amount of gas. Talked to the distributor and she said she had several bags returned for the same reason.
> 
> Terrasita


are people having that problem now?


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## Don Turnipseed

Gas is good. That's why high fiber diets keep you regular. They create gas. In dogs it causes them to bark a lot or fart a lot. In people it causes them to.....well....you can figure it out. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland

"A tremendous amount of gas" in a dog is not good.


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie Sutherland said:


> "A tremendous amount of gas" in a dog is not good.


Suddenly we are at "a tremendous amount of gas"? No in betweens? Just a little gas fart from a dog will clear a room.


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## Howard Gaines III

Josh Smith said:


> I live in SC and feed Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice. Checked my current bags and they are not listed in the recall.
> 
> Not sure what you all are getting so riled up about. The company is issuing a voluntary recall based on their own quality testing. "No dog illnesses have been reported". Sounds like a company working hard to correct a problem.
> 
> Instead of losing my mind and buying overpriced food or messing around with trying to make my own I am going to keep feeding Diamond and keep an eye on their recall site.


Josh...VOLUNTARY RECALL...the stuff should be right BEFORE going out the F-ing door!!!
Like Adam, I've spent so major bucks over the years and been very loyal to the Diamond product. When you can't get your product right, it's like the burger places feeding us that PINK SLIM sh%t and calling it pure beef. So are turds and hooves!!! 
Let the buyer beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=;


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## Howard Gaines III

Is 4health under the same group? Here I go again............


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Suddenly we are at "a tremendous amount of gas"? No in betweens? Just a little gas fart from a dog will clear a room.



Hmmm. Don. "Suddenly"? :lol:

The post above yours says


Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Tried Healthwise when it first came out on the market and our dogs representing three breeds had *a tremendous amount of gas.* Talked to the distributor and she said she had several bags returned for the same reason.


I don't know why ... I just assumed you were replying to the posts immediately above yours. The one that says "a tremendous amount of gas" followed by the one that includes a quote of "a tremendous amount of gas." 

That's why I had "a tremendous amount of gas" in quotes.

I must've misread. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

You didn't Connie....I read, or don't read, according to who the poster is....unless it is my thread. Seems to save a lot of useless rhetoric.....except in a few cases like this one. Sorry.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Somehow I have this image of teenage dogs with cigarettes hanging out of their mouths and armed with lighters at their butts. It could go right next to the dogs playing poker picture.


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## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Somehow I have this image of teenage dogs with cigarettes hanging out of their mouths and armed with lighters at their butts. It could go right next to the dogs playing poker picture.


Ooooo! Ooooo! On velvet?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Connie Sutherland said:


> Ooooo! Ooooo! On velvet?


ONLY if Elvis can play. Wonder if fried peanut butter sandwiches cause gas. Never tried one before.


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## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> ONLY if Elvis can play. Wonder if fried peanut butter sandwiches cause gas. Never tried one before.


I'm pretty sure they are supposed to have bacon and bananas in them too.

I would totally buy velvet art of Elvis playing poker with dogs, with plates of fried PB/B/B sandwiches all over the table.


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## Gerald Dunn

Howard Gaines III said:


> Josh...VOLUNTARY RECALL...the stuff should be right BEFORE going out the F-ing door!!!
> Like Adam, I've spent so major bucks over the years and been very loyal to the Diamond product. When you can't get your product right, it's like the burger places feeding us that PINK SLIM sh%t and calling it pure beef. So are turds and hooves!!!
> Let the buyer beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=;



so now what are you going to buy? I need to get some dog food today and I was feeding Diamond 60 lbs.


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## Thomas Barriano

I used to feed Diamond brand I ordered through my Vet. Then the distributor decided to increase the minimum order needed to get the wholesale price. Switched to Sam's Club house brand at $30/44 lb bag.
I just wish they had a grain free option like the Costco house brand.
Worst food I ever tried was Solid Gold. I had six dogs at the time ALL of them got VERY sick. It was also the WORST customer service. The company owner was very nasty and argued there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the product :-(


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## Nancy Jocoy

Diamond makes Solid Gold.


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## Brian McQuain

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Diamond makes Solid Gold.


 
What the hell does Diamond not make?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Brian McQuain said:


> What the hell does Diamond not make?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Pet_Foods

They make a LOT
Not Nutro, Not Purina


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## Maren Bell Jones

They don't make Natura (California Natural, EVO, Healthwise, Innova), Wellpet (Wellness, Holistic Selects, Eagle Pack), Fromm, Champion Petfoods (Acana, Orijen), Nature's Variety, and so on.

It sounds like the South Carolina Diamond plant needs a serious overhaul. I have not visited the one in Meta, Missouri, though perhaps I should some time. Now there are human cases of salmonella linked to the recall. This is pretty serious.

http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/dog-food-05-12/index.html


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## Nancy Jocoy

Have been researching some of these and the Natura products are quite high in ash and calcium - using a lot more meat meals and less meat to where the Ca is often over 2% and the Ca ratio is a bit high. Ash running around 12%. Also got the same numbers for one of three Earthborn Holistic products (with the other two being in the lower protein range-so why change from Fromm?)

Fromm and Champion are pretty good about including fresh meat and have much better ratios - Fromm runs 5-6% ash, Champion around 7-7.5% (but the Champion foods are significantly higher in protein)

I gather ash can be hard on the kidneys and too high Calcium can be bad for pups and bone development. 

Some of it comes down to me as to what is REALLY an optimal protein/fat/carbs quantity if you are not feeding raw. I would rather pay less for less meat and decent carbs if it doesn't really matter.

-------------

Honestly the statement from Diamond that QC ensures quality means they don't understand quality and will have these problems until they do. I was wondering about the linkage when we started hearing about all these salmonella outbreaks in North Carolina.


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## Joby Becker




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## Don Turnipseed

Brian McQuain said:


> What the hell does Diamond not make?


The majority of what Diamo nd doesn't make is made by Mars. Mars had the biggest recall ever.


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## Howard Gaines III

Gerald Dunn said:


> so now what are you going to buy? I need to get some dog food today and I was feeding Diamond 60 lbs.


 Been using *4health*, the small bites in the 35 pound bag.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Check your bag, Howard. It seems 4health is made by Diamond? The ingredients look very similar to Diamond Naturals as well.


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## Gerald Dunn

Howard Gaines III said:


> Been using *4health*, the small bites in the 35 pound bag.



guess what, that is made by Diamond

They also manufacture under contract, for other companies, at least some of the pet foods sold under these brands or business names.


Canidae Pet Food
Costco's Kirkland Signature
Solid Gold Health Products for Pets
Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Pet Foods
Kirkland Signature Nature's Domain (Available only at Costco)
Taste of the Wild Pet Foods
Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul
4Health (Available only at Tractor Supply Company)
NutraGold Super Premium Holistic Formulas
I got off Diamond and went to 4health, dame is there no end to this bulls$$t. I just want to feed my dogs and myself.


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## Connie Sutherland

More:_
"CDC Links Diamond Pet Food to Human Salmonella Outbreak"_

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/cdc-links-diamond-pet-food-to-human-salmonella-outbreak.html



and from the FDA:
_"Investigation of a Multi-state Outbreak of Salmonella Infantis Linked to Dry Dog Food
May 3, 2012"_

http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/CORENetwork/ucm302904.htm?source=govdelivery


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## Nancy Jocoy

Now for Mars Brands

http://www.mars.com/global/brands/petcare.aspx

Nutro
Royal Canin
Pedigree

And wasn't all of Natura bought out by Proctor and Gamble?


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## Brian McQuain

Don Turnipseed said:


> The majority of what Diamo nd doesn't make is made by Mars. Mars had the biggest recall ever.


 
Yeah, Im familiar with Mars. I have a friend who worked for them, bouncing around their manufacturing plants. First thing he ever said to me when we met was "So, you have dogs? What do you feed them?" Then he proceded to tell me the wonderful stories about what goes on and in their foods. Yum!


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## Howard Gaines III

Any issues with *Pro Plan*? Any corn or soybeans?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Have been researching some of these and the Natura products are quite high in ash and calcium - using a lot more meat meals and less meat to where the Ca is often over 2% and the Ca ratio is a bit high. Ash running around 12%. Also got the same numbers for one of three Earthborn Holistic products (with the other two being in the lower protein range-so why change from Fromm?)
> 
> Fromm and Champion are pretty good about including fresh meat and have much better ratios - Fromm runs 5-6% ash, Champion around 7-7.5% (but the Champion foods are significantly higher in protein)
> 
> I gather ash can be hard on the kidneys and too high Calcium can be bad for pups and bone development.
> 
> Some of it comes down to me as to what is REALLY an optimal protein/fat/carbs quantity if you are not feeding raw. I would rather pay less for less meat and decent carbs if it doesn't really matter.
> .


The levels of ash come from when they burn the food and what is left as minerals. 










(from the 5th edition of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition by Hand et al)

You might be interested in this paper, which shows the % ash on a dry matter basis for quite a few whole prey items. I have met the first author, who is a pretty well known zoo nutritionist. I have not heard that ash (i.e.-inorganic minerals) would be hard on the kidneys any more than higher protein would be, unless of course the kidneys were already compromised.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf


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## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> Any issues with *Pro Plan*? Any corn or soybeans?


Which one?

Here's one:

http://www.proplan.com/dry-dog-food/all-life-stages-chicken-rice-formula/default.aspx

Ingredients:

Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn ......


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## Maren Bell Jones

Nancy Jocoy said:


> And wasn't all of Natura bought out by Proctor and Gamble?


Yes, about 2 years ago they were. They are still using one of the same veterinary nutritionists (the other did not want to permanently relocate to Nebraska, not that I blame him!) and the same really nice facility though. I don't think they produce anything but the Natura products at that facility from last I heard about a year ago. I really would have preferred they would have remained an independent company but I have not noticed a drop in quality and I have heard P&G mostly stays out of their way. FWIW...


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## Thomas Barriano

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Diamond makes Solid Gold.


Where do you get that information?
At the time the founder and owner of Solid Gold Health Products for Pets, was Sissy Harrington-McGill. A totally disagreeable person. I don't know if she sold out to Diamond or what.


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Where do you get that information?
> At the time the founder and owner of Solid Gold Health Products for Pets, was Sissy Harrington-McGill. A totally disagreeable person. I don't know if she sold out to Diamond or what.


wiki...last line...


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Thomas Barriano said:


> Where do you get that information?
> At the time the founder and owner of Solid Gold Health Products for Pets, was Sissy Harrington-McGill. A totally disagreeable person. I don't know if she sold out to Diamond or what.


Here's what they say online (the SG site and FB):

_Diamond Pet Foods manufactures four Solid Gold® dry dog foods: WolfKing, WolfCub, Just a Wee Bit, and Hund-n-Flocken. The remainder of our dry dog foods and both dry cat foods are made at Crosswinds Pet Foods in Kansas. 

All WolfKing, WolfCub, Just a Wee Bit, and Hund-n-Flocken sold in the United States are made in the Diamond Pet Foods plant in Meta, Missouri. 

The Diamond Pet Food plant in Gaston, South Carolina makes a very small amount of WolfKing, WolfCub, and Just a Wee Bit for export purposes. There are no safety concerns with these Solid Gold® foods made in Gaston and they are not part of the limited voluntary recall of Diamond Pet Foods.
_


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Diamond I believe is a mill that manufactures their own and other's feed on contract. They build the various feeds according to the different companies recipes.


----------



## Joby Becker

wtf is going on here...

try this...last line

http://www.diigo.com/item/image/2nd5r/v0og?size=o


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Diamond I believe is a mill that manufactures their own and other's feed on contract. They build the various feeds according to the different companies recipes.




And their history is not good, IMHO.

In December of *2005*, Diamond found aflatoxin in a food made at its Gaston, South Carolina plant, and recalled 19 products in 23 states.

In *2007*, Diamond was one of the many in the Menu Foods recall (the Chinese wheat gluten disaster), with various items among three brands they produced: Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul, Diamond's own brand, and Nutra Nuggets.

In December of *2009*, Diamond had cat food recalls because of thiamine deficiency.

These are what I had noted in a file I was keeping. I can't swear that it's complete.


And *now* this ever-expanding recall, about which the CDC now says "Multistate Outbreak of Human Salmonella Infantis Infections Linked to Dry Dog Food" ...
_
"A total of 14 individuals infected with the outbreak strain of Salmonella Infantis have been reported from 9 states."_
_
"Multiple brands of dry pet food produced by Diamond Pet Foods at a single manufacturing facility in South Carolina have been linked to some of the human Salmonella infections."_

http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/dog-food-05-12/index.html


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Maybe the people that got infected didn't know it was dog food and you're not supposed to eat it? ;-)


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Thomas Barriano said:


> Maybe the people that got infected didn't know it was dog food and you're not supposed to eat it? ;-)


At least not the dry food. If your going to eat it stick to the canned. This thread is making me nervous about eating their food or dog biscuits. Nice thing is....all the problems are always back east. LOL


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Got to retract that last statement. QAbout 20 years ago, Nature's Recipe got some bad wheat. Kept pretty quiet but I noticed after a few days the feeders were still full. Called the company and they said they had some bad wheat and would replace the food. I told them how many bags I had and they said "no way" we will replace two bags. Told them not to worry about it and never bought another bag of the stuff......and I used a lot feeding 20 to 30 outside dogs. A few years ago I got some rancid food from a local mill. I knew it was bad because I had only put the new batch in one dog yard and they all had the hearshy squirts and they were the only ones. Now I pretty muich stick to Costco Super Premium Chicken, Rice, and Veggies. Kind of decided nothing is forever these days.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Remember that bag of TOTW I said I returned because of the foul odor?

http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/information/

Recalled! 

Funny -- last Sunday I was feeling quite puny with a low grade fever and stomach cramps. I wonder....I have a pretty good immune system and we regularly consume home-made kefir.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Thomas Barriano said:


> Maybe the people that got infected didn't know it was dog food and you're not supposed to eat it? ;-)


Or touch it. 

It's not hard at all to imagine folks, from kids to elderly people, giving the dog a piece of kibble from the hand or just handling the dog's bowl and then eating a piece of fruit out of the same hand.

I betcha lots of people pick up the dogs' dishes and don't always "thoroughly scrub their hands."


----------



## Connie Sutherland

*Re: Diamond recall expands -- again -- added TOTW, 4Health, Premium Edge, more*

It's getting worse.

* Chicken Soup for the Pet Lovers Soul
* Country Value
* Diamond
* Diamond Naturals
* Premium Edge
* Professional
* 4Health
* Taste of the Wild

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/articl...es-kirkland-and-taste-of-the-wild-recall.html


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> Or touch it.
> 
> It's not hard at all to imagine folks, from kids to elderly people, giving the dog a piece of kibble from the hand or just handling the dog's bowl and then eating a piece of fruit out of the same hand.
> 
> I betcha lots of people pick up the dogs' dishes and don't always "thoroughly scrub their hands."


I was just thinking about this. I pick up the dogs' bowls twice a day and then put them back. I definitely do not always wash my hands afterwards. 

I guess I'm lucky I feed raw! :-o :lol:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Add Natural Balance to the list:


http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/home/NB_recall.html


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Feeding raw should require scrupulous meat handling processes. When I did feed raw I used a lot of bleach as I do whenever I prepare chicken (bleach the counters, cutting boards, etc)

Salmonella is a common ingredient in raw meats--should not bother a healthy DOG but it can still hurt us.

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/01/haccp-credited-for-reducing-salmonella-cases-from-chicken/


----------



## tracey schneider

We just went through a bad bag of 4health. Ive been waiting to see if it would be included. Food smelled bad, rancid. I thought I was losing my mind, maybe it always smelled like that and I didn't notice... I'm not very observant at times :? Anyway I watched the dogs, nothing happened to any person or dog, but I'm not really touching the food, and I was convinced I was imagining it. Knew for sure it was a bad bag when it was done and I opened a new one.

Next time ill trust my nose, the nose knows.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

I think we are at a point of making your own or feeding raw--which I admit is time consuming. I'm now curious about a list of decent foods that aren't made by mass producers. One of my client dogs eats NRG, dehydrated food that I think its $100+ for 15 pounds. The Vitality formula uses naked oats. I'm curious about its digestibility vs. cooked rolled oats. The broccoli and carrots are raw and don't appear to digest looking at the stools. I can feed nearly the same formula for a fraction of the cost just buying the stuff in the store. Once again you pay for convenience and seemingly peace of mind.

T


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

So does Diamond ALSO make Wellness?

http://www.petsitusa.com/blog/?p=5012


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So does Diamond ALSO make Wellness?
> 
> http://www.petsitusa.com/blog/?p=5012


Unbelievable. Just when I was having one of my days of "making dog food is a royal PITA." Off to the kitchen. Trialing this weekend and need to get it done.

T


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Feeding raw should require scrupulous meat handling processes. When I did feed raw I used a lot of bleach as I do whenever I prepare chicken (bleach the counters, cutting boards, etc)
> 
> Salmonella is a common ingredient in raw meats--should not bother a healthy DOG but it can still hurt us.
> 
> http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/01/haccp-credited-for-reducing-salmonella-cases-from-chicken/


I know. I was joking snarkily. 

I really am not careful about washing my hands after I touch the dogs' bowls, but I was actually just being snide. 

Aside from the bowl-touching downfall (which, sadly, probably won't be corrected), I'm careful. The dog stuff is all in one big non-porous tray (from a cooler ... those big deep trays that keep the food above the ice cubes) in the fridge. Can't leak, no cross-contamination. Completely separate cutting board.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So does Diamond ALSO make Wellness?
> 
> http://www.petsitusa.com/blog/?p=5012


Huh. I'm surprised about this. I had never heard of Wellness being connected to Diamond before.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Connie Sutherland said:


> Huh. I'm surprised about this. I had never heard of Wellness being connected to Diamond before.


Neither have I -- but they were clumped in the same online info. Wish the FDA page did not lag behind -- I don't know, I thought Wellness and Eagle Pak were owned by the same company but not made by Diamond.

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/articl...alance-and-one-wellness-product-recalled.html


----------



## tracey schneider

I don't think diamond owns wellness their website does not list it. 
does not mean theyre not getting their ingredients from similar places 

From diamonds website.... 
http://diamondpetrecall.com/


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

But if Wellness is affected and not manufactured by Diamond, that opens the floodgates for just about anything.

T


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

I did see someone post on another forum that Diamond makes the Large Breed Puppy for Wellness. I don't know if that is true or not.

I get skeptical anytime someone sells out to a large agricultural related company as now we have relationships they can leverage with each other to sell us their waste.

I don't think dogs can and should eat the parts that are not desired by us, but when I bought chicken frames at a poultry plant in Charlotte and saw a tractor trailor being filled for the rendering plant - there was plenty of trash (plastic bags, strapping, etc) along with the scrap.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Ok let's backtrack here...right now only the DIAMOND label stuff is bad or has been recalled, correct?
Then the *4health *hasn't had issues?
Going for dog food in a few hours.


----------



## Larry Krohn

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I returned a bag of TOTW bison but have not heard back. It had a very bad off smell that even my husband (who can't seem to tell when milk has soured) noticed it. It was produced at the same plant with a March 13 Expiration date.
> 
> I opened it a week after the recall and the TOTW is not on the recall list.
> 
> Swapped it out for a bag of Fromm.


It is now


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Howard Gaines III said:


> Ok let's backtrack here...right now only the DIAMOND label stuff is bad or has been recalled, correct?
> Then the *4health *hasn't had issues?
> Going for dog food in a few hours.


Nope 4 Health is in the Recall

http://diamondpetrecall.com/#


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Thanks Nancy I'm off to get Pro Plan.


----------



## Josh Smith

I am switching to basic Purina. http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2010/10/well-fed-dog-is-never-fat.html


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Josh Smith said:


> I am switching to basic Purina. http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2010/10/well-fed-dog-is-never-fat.html



Hmmm. I disagree with a lot of that article.

Fat dogs are overfed and/or underexercised dogs.

And _"Why do I feed my dogs kibble? Simple: Kibble has been treated with fire."_ to make a point about how _"while cooking does not cure all ills, it cures most, and that is especially important with meat" _is kind of interesting, given that this thread is about kibble recalled because of salmonella. :lol:

Purina Dog Chow:

Ingredients
*Whole grain corn, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, animal fat *preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), meat and bone meal, *brewers rice, soybean meal, whole grain wheat, egg and chicken flavor,* animal digest, calcium phosphate, salt, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, choline chloride, *added color (Yellow 6, Yellow 5, Red 40, Blue 2)*, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, *menadione sodium bisulfite complex *(source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite. 

This is a fine example, for me, of crap-in-a-bag for dogs.

But JMO! 


PS

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/menadione-in-dog-food/

QUOTE: _And watch out! You might even come across menadione hiding behind innocent little phrases like one that refers to it as… “a source of vitamin K activity."_


http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/purina-dog-chow/

QUOTE: _... when you consider the plant-based protein-boosting effect of the corn gluten meal, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a limited amount of meat. ... Bottom line? ... Purina Dog Chow is primarily a grain-based kibble using only a modest amount of assorted by-product meals as its main source of animal protein… thus earning the brand one star. ... Not recommended._


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Back up...if a dog will eat wildlife and sheep crap, drink water from the toilet, and other nasty things...how important are some processed grains in the big pcture? If they are the lower of the main food items in the bag...I went to Pro Plan and will try it. DIAMOND has the last of my money for the time being!

Remember, all meat items must be made into a ceral form...


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> Back up...if a dog will eat wildlife and sheep crap, drink water from the toilet, and other nasty things...how important are some processed grains in the big pcture? If they are the lower of the main food items in the bag...I went to Pro Plan and will try it. DIAMOND has the last of my money for the time being!
> 
> Remember, all meat items must be made into a ceral form...


Actually, I'm talking in the post above about a grain-based diet, not "some processed grains" in the diet.  _"Purina Dog Chow is primarily a grain-based kibble using only a modest amount of assorted by-product meals as its main source of animal protein."_

Also, you asked, I believe, whether there was corn or soy in Pro Plan, and my reply to that question was "Which one? Here's one of them."



Connie Sutherland said:


> Which one?
> 
> Here's one:
> 
> http://www.proplan.com/dry-dog-food/all-life-stages-chicken-rice-formula/default.aspx
> 
> Ingredients:
> 
> Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn ......



I do recognize that dogs are scavengers. I do recognize that they can survive on some really bad and/or really random diets. 

But dogs still aren't designed for a grain-based diet like that basic Purina one.

JMO!


----------



## Josh Smith

Connie, I read the articles you linked to and couldn't find any concrete studies or facts that showed that a basic food like Purina is bad for dogs. You just said that you think a grain-based diet for dogs is bad for them in the last post. I believe this is because it doesn't fit in the philosophy you have about raw feeding.

The terrierman made some very good points and seemed to make a lot of sense. My grandmother tells me stories about her father who trained hunting dogs near Orangeburg, SC at the turn of the century. When I ask her what they feed these working dogs she said grits. It is what they had and it is what the dogs got to eat. They apparently did very well on an all corn diet.

I am getting off this crazy food merry-go-round. I will let you know how my Malinois does on the Purina. She sure loves the Diamond naturals.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Josh Smith said:


> Connie, I read the articles you linked to and couldn't find any concrete studies or facts that showed that a basic food like Purina is bad for dogs. You just said that you think a grain-based diet for dogs is bad for them in the last post. I believe this is because it doesn't fit in the philosophy you have about raw feeding.
> 
> The terrierman made some very good points and seemed to make a lot of sense. My grandmother tells me stories about her father who trained hunting dogs near Orangeburg, SC at the turn of the century. When I ask her what they feed these working dogs she said grits. It is what they had and it is what the dogs got to eat. They apparently did very well on an all corn diet.
> 
> I am getting off this crazy food merry-go-round. I will let you know how my Malinois does on the Purina. She sure loves the Diamond naturals.


*I'm with you that you should feed what you are comfortable feeding and what you think, after some reading, is right for you. That's what we should all do, I believe.*



For me, dogs aren't designed to eat a diet based on corn. From dental design and the lack of amylase in their saliva all the way through the G.I. system, dogs are not equipped to process well, or to get their protein from, a grain-based diet. 

But it would require enough text to fill a short book to explain all the points, and I have a feeling you have made up your mind for now. I completely get it about the "crazy food merry-go-round." 



_"When I ask her what they feed these working dogs she said grits. It is what they had and it is what the dogs got to eat."_

Dogs can live (survive) on pretty much anything. You're right: they are scavengers.




_"I believe this is because it doesn't fit in the philosophy you have about raw feeding."_

Well, my "philosophy" came from many years' worth of reading and research. I didn't just stumble on raw on the internet and fall for it (although I might well have done that if the internet had been around! :lol: ).

I stumbled on it via the "stinky smelly infected Pred-taking deaf-from-repeated-ear-infections allergy-ridden adopted dog" route ... and desperation.

I grabbed the one(!) book I could find (and even eight years or so later, there was really only one more that was readily available; I still have them both: they were written by two different Aussie vets who were pretty much ostracized for this insane approach about feeding species-appropriate food) and jumped in, full of fear and anxiety and not at all eager about it.

This was before we had the tons of information we have now on the internet (if we're careful about how to choose authoritative sources).

It was long before most of the zillions of books we have now, too, as I mentioned. And it was also at a time when the vet manual diet guidelines were straight (and I mean straight!) from a big kibble manufacturer.




OTOH, there are now many good commercial foods. The choices have come a looooong way from 1950, when the Chex cereal maker, Ralston Purina, began to use the extruder from their cereal line to make an extruded food based on the cheapest grain, grain fractions, and stuff like by-products from the alcoholic beverage industry: Purina Dog Chow was born. 

There are lots of good commercial foods these days. It may be hard to sort them out, but they certainly exist. We've had thread after thread here, discussing the better choices.



I really believe 100% that it's possible to feed a good, meat-based, species-appropriate commercial food. I don't have an emotional or philosophical aversion to all commercial dog food. :lol:

In fact, there are cans (three different brands) and also three big cartons of different kinds of dehydrated (from The Honest Kitchen) foods in my house. 

There would be some good kibble, too, for convenience, if I weren't averse to mixing kibble and raw. 

There would be no Purina Dog Chow, though.



All JMO. 

OK, off the soapbox. :lol: If anyone made it this far, they get a major prize (to be announced as soon as I think of it).


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

I really am looking to make a long term change and am frustrated somewhat by the lack of anything other than ad hype on "feeding the wolf in your house" by giving uber-high protein meat diets (which are also loaded with high glycemic white potatoes for the extrusion process)-- I actually like the TOTW Wetlands formula (but too high in calcium for a puppy) but my lack of faith in the quality systems at Diamond has me looking.

Right now the puppy is doing well on Fromm which is 26% proteins, 14% fat and If I add the calories from the Grizzly salmon oil (126 based on my measurement), then that adds a significant amount of fat to the existing diet...but it is meat, meat meal, and has grains and potatoes.

I honestly don't feel the need to feed a dog uber-protein because any not used for muscle development is simply burned as energy and it is a lot cheaper to burn grains than meat. Actually if you think about it, WE are omnivores and not really designed to eat grains or beans without a lot of cooking and grinding and processing either! I gather grains are really for the birds and rodents (other than the fact that without them we probably would not have the 'civilized' world.

In my mind the only value you get with a high protein food using white potatoes instead of grain or legumes is that they can falsely elevate the protein numbers in the feed as the analysis of feed proteins is a simple test for nitrogen content. .

So a meat and potato food accurately reflects the protein from the meat sources. Grains or Beans alone no matter how fully processed for digestion do not have the amino acid profile of meat. 

Those Southern dogs probably ate cornmush and black eyed peas and greens - a staple of Southern poverty cooking (and why my mother developed pellegra as a child; it was epidemic in the South) .... FWIW apparently dogs can make their own niacin unlike us....BUT the beans and corn together made for a complete protein. .. 

I t hink some of the low glycemic grains would be a better choice than white potato if they added pea protein to the mix. I am not sure why a little soy is so controversial, it would balance out the grains

Does anyone know actually how much protein and fat are actually optimal / acceptable? Anecdotally, it seems that as I push close to 30% protein / 20% fat is where I got the best endurance and heat tolerance and anything above that was a wash, but that is subjective on my part.
-------

Connie, you know I looked at THK and the first thing that jumped out was flaxseed (isnt ALA pretty worthless to a dog) and potatoes.....so .......


----------



## Josh Smith

Good response Connie. If I ever find myself with a field of sheep then I will probably learn the ropes and feed raw but for now I just want a good straight forward kibble to feed my dogs. I had settled on diamond and was happy but then the crap hit the fan. Boo. Not a lot of other choices than aren't way overpriced or hard to find.


----------



## rick smith

whenever anyone tells me what their dog "loves"....
what a dog loves has NOTHING to do with nutrition of course](*,)
most dogs love ice cream, donuts and fries
and many dogs love antifreeze

my dog hates Honest Kitchen (Force) and won't even give it a sniff.....and it looks pretty darn healthy based on the label


----------



## Connie Sutherland

And like their owners, dogs love added sugar and salt and artificial flavors. (The artificial colors are added for the owner's eye appeal.)

:lol:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Josh Smith said:


> .... for now I just want a good straight forward kibble to feed my dogs. I had settled on diamond and was happy but then the crap hit the fan. Boo. Not a lot of other choices than aren't way overpriced or hard to find.


I can look tomorrow for better (meat-based) kibbles and then make sure they're unrelated to Diamond.

The cost can't really be compared bag-to-bag, because of different amounts fed. But someone online must have cost comparisons.

I'll look tomorrow.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Interesting to see what you find. My assessment so far is that some highly rated (by the label) foods are not worth pursuing.. Slowly building a spreadsheet taking into account some of the factors.

Folks like Evo but I am sorry it is extremely high in Calcium, and ratios of calciumhosphorus are also at the limit and the ash content is near 12%. It messed with my dog's blood chemistries as well. And that was the poultry base. The red meat based formulas all seem to higher in ash. Evo is on a calorie basis one of the cheaper meat-based high protein feeds to buy.

Also - I am also having to take into account the additives (Orijen is high enough in glucosamine and fish-sourced omega 3s that I would not have to supplement and that would help offset the cost - though I would put that food in the fridge) because I don't think that flaxseed has any value other than it is an expensive source of fat.

That is why I ask how much protein and fat are really optimal?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Hey, found this article that looks worth actually reading!

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/124/12_Suppl/2745S.full.pdf

But it is 68F and it is daylight.....prime doggy time.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

And some interesting numbers on a bird dog feed.

http://www.nativedogfood.com/our-formulas/


----------



## Jim Delbridge

I do a 50/50 mix of Orjen and Blue Buffalo for my dogs. The Orjen does fine over 3 weeks in a seal container. I've been feeding it for several years. It's very expensive though. I can get the Blue Buffalo at wholesale and find it all over, so I do the half in case I need food on the road. Save the CLEI labels on the ORJEN. You can get a free bag of equitable price every 13 bags and at $68 that's worth saving the labels.

Jim


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Just got back. I was thinking of doing the same. with the Orijen + the Fromm - adjust the protein to about 30-32%. I have a spare fridge in the basement - I may just keep it in there once I open it.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Correct, IF corn or corn products are the BASE of the mix, 1 or 2 on the list. They are cheap feed and fillers. But all dry commercial mixes which use meat have to render them into a ceral form. Meat and meat by products are nothing more than scrap that couldn't make it into the human diet...by law. Well, unless we're talking about that PINK SLIME crap!=D>


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Orijen is high enough in glucosamine and fish-sourced omega 3s that I would not have to supplement and that would help offset the cost ....


Wouldn't you have to know the kibble heat temps to know if DHA and EPA survived the process intact?

I remember reading about high-heat cooking effects in an online excerpt from the book_ Chemical, Biological, and Functional Aspects of Food Lipids_ (a book I did not actually buy or read, sadly :lol: ... I think it was a one-page excerpt at Google Books).


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Valid concern.

According to Orijen not listed in this paper they cook at 95C which is below the boling point of water.

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/ar...time-of-kibble-lessens-nutritional-value.html

And I think most added oils are sprayed on after the cooking is done. Still have the issue of expsoure to air and breakdown/rancidity...but that would not be dependant on the preparation process, just air and time.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I did see someone post on another forum that Diamond makes the Large Breed Puppy for Wellness. I don't know if that is true or not.



Part of a May 5 email from Wellness:
_
We want to let you know that we have announced a voluntary recall of one recipe of Wellness dry dog food. This voluntary recall is being done out of an abundance of caution as these products were produced at the Diamond Pet Foods facility that has been linked to recent recalls of Diamond brand foods due to the threat of Salmonella._


Here's the May 4 press release:

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/news.aspx


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> I can look tomorrow for better (meat-based) kibbles and then make sure they're unrelated to Diamond.
> 
> The cost can't really be compared bag-to-bag, because of different amounts fed. But someone online must have cost comparisons.
> 
> I'll look tomorrow.


I'm looking!

If anyone has any one part of this, any starting point besides what I'm using (two-star and three-star foods as deemed by various quality comparison lists), please post. :lol:

Like .... does anyone happen to have a few names of almost-as-cheap-as-Purina-Dog-Chow kibbles? 

(The online price comparisons are almost all just for buying online, rather than in-store.)


----------



## Josh Smith

Nutro Max is rated 3.5 stars and is about $28 for a 30lb bag. More expensive than Diamond Naturals but cheaper than evo, wellness, blue. Anyone have experience with this food?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Josh Smith said:


> Nutro Max is rated 3.5 stars and is about $28 for a 30lb bag. More expensive than Diamond Naturals but cheaper than evo, wellness, blue. Anyone have experience with this food?


I was looking at that on Dog Food Advisor.

It looks to me to be a _much_ better food than Purina Dog Chow.

I don't have personal experience with it.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

I think David is a big proponent of Nutro - but I think it is the Natural version. I do know they use Menadione but not sure how much of a problem that reall is.

Lot of real working dogs living long healthy lives on it.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> ... Menadione ...


I didn't see that here, although I thought that too:

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/nutro-max-dog-food-dry/


----------



## Josh Smith

I saw someone mention Eagle Pack earlier. It seems to be the least expensive highest rated food I can find at 4 stars. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/eagle-pack-dog-food/

Works out to around $1.12 a pound. http://www.petflow.com/explorer/brand/eagle-pack 

Any opinions on this food?


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## Connie Sutherland

Josh Smith said:


> I saw someone mention Eagle Pack earlier. It seems to be the least expensive highest rated food I can find at 4 stars. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/eagle-pack-dog-food/
> 
> Works out to around $1.12 a pound. http://www.petflow.com/explorer/brand/eagle-pack
> 
> Any opinions on this food?


Another step up. Prefer brown rice to wheat.

I had the impression it was a pretty spendy brand. Good to hear it's not.


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## Anne Vaini

NutriSource is 4 stars on that website and is an excellent value. The "Super Performance" formula is as calorie dense as grain free kibble, very nice. It's about10 cents more per pound than Purina Dog Chow. Excellent value!


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## Nancy Jocoy

Which eagle pak? Lamb tends to be high in ash and I never had good results with it. 

Fromm classic is in the same fat and protein range, is slightly more expensive BUT has 404 calories / cup vs 364 for the Eagle Pak and is free of corn and wheat. I like Fromm a lot and have been delighted with the puppy gold. Not sure why they rated the Eagle Pak higher on that site but then there are a lot of reviews there that don't make a lot of sense..


http://frommfamily.com/products/classics/dog/dry/adult


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## Mario Fernandez

Did not realize Nature Domain was on the list.


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## Josh Smith

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Which eagle pak? Lamb tends to be high in ash and I never had good results with it.
> 
> Fromm classic is in the same fat and protein range, is slightly more expensive BUT has 404 calories / cup vs 364 for the Eagle Pak and is free of corn and wheat. I like Fromm a lot and have been delighted with the puppy gold. Not sure why they rated the Eagle Pak higher on that site but then there are a lot of reviews there that don't make a lot of sense..
> 
> 
> http://frommfamily.com/products/classics/dog/dry/adult


You have mentioned ash several times now but I don't see it listed on any of the nutrient lists. What are you referring to?


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## Nancy Jocoy

They do not want you to see the ash levels unless it is low so they only put it on their if it will benefit them as AAFCO does not require it on the label.

FWIW I see your dog did well on lamb so it may be good. At that protein level I doubt ash would be a problem but when you go high protein it can. Innova Evo is 11.7% ash and it DID cause problems with my dog's urinalysis and bloodwork (not just BUN). Orijen which costs an arm and a leg only has 7.5% ash because they use higher quality meat and meal sources...kind of why I asked about protein because I don't think there is much return above about 30% ....is there?

I just called the companies when I was looking and asked what their ash was - some also don't put calcium and phosphorus on the internet pages and high calcium can be bad for puppies, high phosphorus can be hard on kidneys.

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dog-food-ash/


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## Nancy Jocoy

Anne Vaini said:


> NutriSource is 4 stars on that website and is an excellent value. The "Super Performance" formula is as calorie dense as grain free kibble, very nice. It's about10 cents more per pound than Purina Dog Chow. Excellent value!


That DOES look good. It is going on my list to further check out! While the peas can make the food look like it has more useful protein than it actually has....(but so can grains)....they are MUCH lower glycemic than white potatoes (which are very high) and rice, corn, or oats (which, while not as high as potatoes are still pretty high)

And the price is right for sure!


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## Nancy Jocoy

Oh, I was looking at the grain free line but the 30/20 looks a lot better than some of the other ones out there for sure.


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## Anne Vaini

Nancy Jocoy said:


> That DOES look good. It is going on my list to further check out! While the peas can make the food look like it has more useful protein than it actually has....(but so can grains)....they are MUCH lower glycemic than white potatoes (which are very high) and rice, corn, or oats (which, while not as high as potatoes are still pretty high)
> 
> And the price is right for sure!


I switched from rotating between TOTW, EVO, Fromm, and ... something else, to NutriSource Super Performance when I moved 50 miles away from a decent pet store. I was a little worried that my dogs condition would suffer, but they thrived on it. Better than on the grain free foods. I recommend it equally as freely as I recommend grain free foods.

My fiance (is a vet) and feeds Science Diet. Even he was impressed with the value of NutriSource. (But still feed Science Diet #-o) For the record I did get him to switch to Evo 3 years ago, but that only lasted as long as we were dating, lol.


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## Maren Bell Jones

The FDA released its preliminary reports on the SC plant. Real shame...

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/...eport-cites-flaws-at-diamond-pet-foods-plant/


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## Gerald Dunn

very sad, can they be trusted now?


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## Maren Bell Jones

I don't know, but if I were Diamond, I'd shut it down in terms of both renovations and management. As I have said, I have been impressed with the quality control and the facility of the Natura plant in Freemont, NE. So that is unacceptable that they would cut corners on basic maintenance of the facility. Diamond is usually a few dollars cheaper than other brands. Perhaps this is why... :?


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## rick smith

if a product looks good from the label and is considerably cheaper i would confirm none of the "source" ingredients were sourced from China, and if the company would not CLEARLY confirm that, i wouldn't buy it
...and if the Q isn't phrased carefully the answer may be misleading 
...'specially if it reads like a lawyer wrote it 

we have very high manufacturing standards here in Japan, but i have found out even some of the J brands are "importing" ingredients...since there isn't the same level of disclosure and consumer protection here, it's hard to pin them down...one of my customers is a doc and she managed to squeeze out the truth


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## Nancy Jocoy

It depends on their approach to quality management. They say on the website that extensive QC ensures quality. No amount of testing can ensure quality. 

Look to a company that has a HACCP program, has identified critical control points and put controls around those points and QC testing AT those points. That involves participation from folks at all levels of the company to identify what has gone wrong, what can go wrong and how to prevent and detect these ocurrences if they do occur. THAT is how you ensure quality.


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## Doug Zaga

*OBSERVATION 1*

All reasonable precautions are not taken to ensure that production procedures do not contribute contamination from any source.


_Specifically, no microbiological analysis is conducted or there is no assurance that incoming animal fat will not introduce pathogens into their production and cause contamination of finished product. Also, the firm's current sampling procedure for *animal digest* does (sic) preclude potential for adulteration after sampling and during storage in warehouse. On 4/13/12, an employee was observed touching in-line fat filter and oil with bare hands._

I was under the impression that many of the foods in this recall produced by Diamond *did not use animal digest*? So, if the report is identifying an issue with their animal digest sampling what does that tell us?


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## Howard Gaines III

Having switched to *Purina Pro Plan* from the *4health/Diamond* brands, I've noticed NO runs or other loose diarrhea issues with any of my dogs. The coat looks good and they have lots of drive. I will not go back after this many issues. Price is only about $2.00 more!


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## Tiago Fontes

I do Orijen and raw meat...chicken carcasses, necks, liver... beef. 
The dogs look good, are lean and I dont make it too complicated. 

Sometimes fish and thats it!


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