# Identifying a bitch in heat



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't intend on spaying my female, I don't want to spay or neuter until they are fully matured, and even then I like the option of breeding if the dog turns out to be an awesome dog! My male is un-neutered. I don't have a problem with preventing \"accidents\" from happening, but having never owned a female dog other than our family pet when I was 7 years old, I don't know what the signs of a bitch going into heat are. Naturally I would need to keep them seperated while my girl is in heat, but what are the signs that it's time to seperate the dogs?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

This would be great info for an informed user to post...I have to take my GSD through her first heat as some help with her early urinary tract infections, I would like to know when to start preparing for the heat. No other dogs, just want to keep the house clean and the walks more tightly controlled.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Well easy enough if you´ve any males around...they´re getting very interested :lol: 

First time in heat for a shepherd is somewhere between 7 mo. and 14 mo., usually when they´re about 1 yr old (is my experience). There in heat for 3 weeks. First 10 days you´ll find some blood, especially when they get up after laying down (sleeping). They usually clean up their own mess, and keep their genitals clean. Sometimes you have to attent them to the spot, but nature is wel balanced.
After aprox. 10 days it becomes dangerous, because they can be bred (dekrijp). She wil stand with her tail beside her so the male can penetrate her. After a week, she sometimes will bleed again. Then everthing is back to normal.

All my males and females are intact, why do you spay/neuter them so early? I only spay/neuter if it´s a medical emercency e.g. more then once not-real- pregnancy (don´t know english word: schijnzwangerschap), heavy infections like a whominfection or prostate infection.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Personally I don't like neutering or spaying, it's un-natural and I feel it affects the temprement and personality of the dogs. Cujo is un-neutered and unless he has a medical problem, that's how he is staying. I would hate to spay my puppy then when she is 3 find out she is an amazing working dog that should be bred, then regret listening to people who tell me she's going to get cancer if I don't spay her at 6 months.

Vet's in the US love to make money from the surgery so they tell you things like \"if you neuter your male puppy then he won't be aggressive, he won't mark his territory and pee on everything, he won't be dominant\" etc etc etc, it's all bullshit, I told my vet \"if I need surgery to do that then it must mean I'm not a good trainer!\". With females, there's percentages about reducing the risk of cancer if you spay a bitch before her first heat, Connie Sutherland knows the statistics -- but I'll take my chances with not spaying her unless there is a medical reason to do so. Maybe a dumb pet owner who will have accidental puppies should spay their bitch so they don't create more mutts to fill up the animal shelters, but if you're a responsible owner I don't see a problem. I also think the statistics are too skewed by unhealthy dogs and mutt's. Also pet owners don't want to deal with blood on their carpet. But who am I? I'm not a vet, so maybe I'm wrong, but I'll take my chances 



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> After aprox. 10 days it becomes dangerous, because they can be bred (dekrijp).


So the first few days of bleeding she can't get pregnant? So I can wait to see if she's bleeding, THEN seperate them?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks for this information, Selena. It's valuable! I just want to get it over with.

Neutering Annie is actually part of the contract I signed with my breeder, and something I'd do anyways. No interest in breeding, no interest in accidents, no interest in dealing with repetitive heat cycles, and only positives, health-wise, for Annie relative to my situation and my goals for her. It just makes the most sense for me and I certainly understand why others would not want to close that option for their own animals.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Selena van Leeuwen said:
> 
> 
> > After aprox. 10 days it becomes dangerous, because they can be bred (dekrijp).
> ...


Yes you can wait till she starts bleeding. Oh forgot to tell, usually a female becomes in heat twice in 13 mo.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> usually a female becomes in heat twice in 13 mo.


Interesting, I knew it was twice a year, didn't know 13 months.

Thanks for the info, makes it alot easier to manage 2 dogs knowing when I need to worry :lol:


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I dont like spaying or neutering either.I agree with Mike,it aint natural.Responsible owners dont need to neuter.Yes , vets here in the US push spaying and neutering like they are trying to sell you a used car.There are far too many irresponsible owners and way too many homeless mutts but IMO those people shouldnt own a dog anyway. :x 

Greg


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike your male will be sure to let you know when she is comming into heat.   The really be careful time is between 10-13 day of cycle. That is when she is most likely to conceice. I just went thru it with my female & my male really let me know when she was coming into heat. I knew about when she should be due & when to start keeping an eye on them. It may be a bit harder to pinpoint with a first heat cycle. So you may just have to watch you boy for him to let you know. My male is very well behaved & I was able to let them be together with me in the house thru out the whole time. (with my eyes on them of course) If he looked like he was going to try to mount her, I just told him no & he would stop. I only had to crate one of them for about 4 days in the middle of her cycle when it was just too much for him to lay down not fidget in the den in the evening when I was watching tv or on the computer. Up until that point & after it they were together with no problems. I had none of the screaming & barking & crying that you hear about with my male. Outside I kenneled him & let her be in the fenced yard so that they could still interact & play with the kennel seperating them. I of course also kept an eye on them so that he did jump out of my 6' kennel (he has jumped out of a 5' one several time before I had him). My female has not yet been bred ( he has sired about 4 litters) so she didn't know enough to try to mate with the kennel between them, which I have heard has been done. Again, I kept a good eye on them & it was all fine. The female usually will start to swell in the vulva area when they are coming into heat & they may start to spend more time licking that area also. They also may become flacky about things that they usually are not. My female will work just fine while in heat but is flacky about some things & is sometimes skiddish about things when the hormones surge. I guess that I was lucky with my male, he is a good guy. And Al, in case you are reading this....NO PUPPIES !!!!! I hope that this might help, Mike.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I forgot to add that the first heat & even the next 1 or 2 may not be exactly 6 mo so keep an eye out. My female came in the 1st time at abouty a year & then the next time it was 4 months later & them the next time it was 7 months & the last one was 6 months. So you will need to pay attention to the signs. SHe is only not quite 2 1/2 yrs so she has only had 4 heat cycles. I also do not intend to spay her or neuter my male. I may spay her at some point after she is about 4,if I decide not to breed her, but I don't intend to neuter my male unless it becomes medically necessary.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks Anne.

I hear Zasha is a wild one, you sure you wouldn't like some demon spawn from Elvis??   Do you have any video of her?


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah, she is a handfull or maybe even 2, alright. That's mygirl    You must have been speaking with Al, he has seen her in action. I don't know if I could handle the combination of her extreme drives, hardness & then Elvis's civilness on top of that. At least she is pretty friendly for the most part, (not that I let people interact with her out in public) but she will alert on someone on her own when she feels it's necessary. I have a new digital camera that will do short videos if I can ever figure out how to do it. Took me forever just to learn how to take pics with it. I just should have gotten the point & shoot kind. Maybe Al can take one when we get together. I know he has the camera for it. That is if we can find some poor slob that wants to be on the other side of the sleeve from her so Al can take the video. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

lol I'd do it if you lived down here, but if you lived down here I wouldn't need the video  I show friends video of my decoy work and they all think I'm insane. Funny. Maybe they don't feel comfortable having a dog attack them while laying on the ground, go figure...










I think that, based on what I hear from both y'alls dogs, you'd have some very cool puppies if you could pass on the right traits :lol:

[Edit: The dog in the pic is Jay Murphy's Malinois \"Dante\", to give credit where credit's due! ]


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

To bad, she'd love to nip on you. :lol: You could always take a trip to CT to visit your friends up here !!!!!  Zasha would love that.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Maybe one day I will, I'm sure my dogs would like to dig thru snow


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Maybe one day I will, I'm sure my dogs would like to dig thru snow


We had a little snow here two weeks ago (first in 30 years at sea level, where I am), and my dogs LOVED it. As food.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> .....Neutering Annie is actually part of the contract I signed with my breeder, and something I'd do anyways. No interest in breeding, no interest in accidents, no interest in dealing with repetitive heat cycles, and only positives, health-wise, for Annie relative to my situation and my goals for her. It just makes the most sense for me and I certainly understand why others would not want to close that option for their own animals.


Me too. This is something I've been rabid (haha) about, for PET dogs. 

Now I am learning just what a difference there is between spaying a PET dog and a working dog. I also see that the repro cancer stats just might be affected some by quality of food and quality of life in general, and that often (don't hit me!) is related to the quality of training.......

So, while I'm still working on my knee-jerk reaction to leaving PET females intact, I'm learning that it isn't necessarily breeders only who have valid reasons for keeping females intact.

I do think, regardless of all this, that the current fad of doing neutering early (8 wks to 4 mos) instead of the older ideas about just in time to avert a 1st heat might demonstrate problems down the road. It's a new enough practice that I believe it hasn't been proven to be OK. And for males, although I see the point of doing it before sexual maturity (6-9 months) and the urge to roam, etc., I'm still reading about the advice to wait until age two for long-bone development reasons.

And maybe there are drive reasons, too. I don't know enough yet to comment, but I'm pluggin' away at the newest papers and books!


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey, maybe the vets are now pushing the earlier than ever spay/neutering to replace the lost income on the vactionations. Now that a good % of the general public has finaly wised up to the BS about their pets needing yearly shots, it has hit the vets right where it hurts....in the pocketbook


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't use the word \"ain't\" because ain't ain't a word, but I do agree with Mike and Greg, other than Greg's Oklahoma word choice :lol: . I did tons of research on pros and cons of neutering b/c Caleb MAY have a questionable hip, and that would be a condition for his replacement. I decided NO! Keep your puppy if you're gonna make me break (not fix) mine! 4x more likely to develop prostate cancer if neutered; if intact, may develop testicular cancer,but it is rarer than prostate and hardly ever fatal, unlike very aggressive prostate cancer. All-around bad for bones and connective tissues, and if my dog MAY have an issue, why on Earth would I do something KNOWN to cause more problems? Also, intact males are far less likely to develop cognitive difficulties and incontinence in later years than neutered males. I can't stand vets who give these BS lines about neutering; of COURSE neutered dogs don't get testicular cancer! :roll: If I cut off my head, I wouldn't get brain cancer either!


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> I don't use the word \"ain't\" because ain't ain't a word


Aint that a double negative?

I love it when the vet asks if your dog is \"fixed\" yet?How is that fixing anything?The problem of stupid people who own dogs is bigger than ever, so no I dont think that is fixing the problem.

Greg


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

Ain't ain't a word, so I ain't gonna say ain't no more. 

I laugh at the term \"fixed\" too; what exactly are they fixing? Not behavior, not health (usually-there are exceptions), so what exactly? I just wish vets were objective and gave people the facts, not just the ideas that help perpetuate neutering without knowing why you're doing it. I think everyone should know the real reasons for their actions.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

What forum am I on here, anyway? I'm rating all you guys one star. :lol: 

I'm kidding. I just feel good and confident about my decision to neuter Annie, it fits my needs with her. Definitely not something I'd do because it was suggested to me.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> What forum am I on here, anyway? I'm rating all you guys one star. :lol:
> 
> I'm kidding. I just feel good and confident about my decision to neuter Annie, it fits my needs with her. Definitely not something I'd do because it was suggested to me.


Neutering should be a personal decision not one based on vetiranary pressures or peoples opinions on a message board. If you want to spay or neuter your dog, no problem!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey Mike Dante use to belong to Matt and I. He's nice. Didn't know you've worked him.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Scott and Jay decided to teach me how to use a bite suit with him since he's a very clean dog, he's a cool dog, I enjoyed working with him alot.


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## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

Keep in mind, some bitches are very clean or just don't bleed much when they come into heat. If you male has any kind of sex drive, he'll let you know for sure. Other things to watch for are a slight swelling of the vagina (and sometimes is can be major swelling). Also it will soften a bit.

And some bitches can come into heat every 4 months! We've got one like that.


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

Here is an article I wrote on female dogs, and the hormones which govern sexual behavior:
Like most mammals, dogs are ruled hormonally by their pituitary gland. One of the most important hormones in a bitch's life is the hormone FSH, which stimulates the production of estrogen. In all mammals EXCEPT humans, an increase in estrogen production is needed to allow a full display of sexual behavior. Under the influcence of estrogen, bitches might be more active, will urinate more, at least certainly in the presence of dogs, and will behave in a receptive manner with male dogs or even with their owners. A female in heat will sometimes cock her leg to urinate and seem to increase her territory markings with urine. Under the influence of estrogen, some bitches will whine and moan more, others will be more nervous and irritable, some will even mount males or non-estrous females. There are, however, certain false myths about breeding in bitches as there are with dogs. It is not necessary, for example, for a bitch to have a litter. It will not make her more emotionally mature or stable.
Under FSH influence, estrogen is seasonally produced in the ovaries of the dog but then, after ovulation, the other female hormone, progesterone, becomes dominant. Progesterone is an amazing chemical, thought to have a calming effect on the dog's mind. Certainly in large doses, it has a sedative effect. In fact, modified only very slightly, it is actually used as an anaesthetic in animals. While estrogen increases in the dog's body for a short length of time, progesterone remains in the circulation, influencing the brain for two months after each estrus and can have a dramatic effect on canine behavior. The most common behaviors are those associated with pregnancy: nest building, guarding possessions, and milk production. In most instances the behavior is not associated with a true pregnancy, but rather with a false hormonal pregnancy, a progesterone induced false pregnancy.
The behavior of a bitch experiencing a false or phantom pregnancy can change dramatically. The sedative effect of progesterone on some bitches can be stultifying and it is not uncommon that pet owners bring in their post-estrous bitches to the vet thinking that they are seriously ill when in fact they are only subdued. This is a very subjective diagnosis. One bitch I owned, Leonora, became overwhelmingly subdued for two months after each season, so much so that I was not afraid to call it a depression. She sat or lay under tables or behind furniture and flatly refused to play with anyone or anything. Then, as if by magic, over a period of a week or so, she snapped out of this state of mind and reverted back to her natural playful state.
Some bitches will experience changes in their taste buds. After ovulation, some will only eat specific things, such as meat, and won't touch anything else. A favorite treat will not tempt them in the slightest.
Guarding toys, dolls, rags, slippers or anything else that can be carried is another common behavioral consequence of the surge in progesterone. Progesterone, like estrogen, influences behavior by acting on the brain. This is why it is now frequently used as a treatment in behavior modification in male dogs. Dog pups, as mentioned in the earlier article titled "Castration of the Dog: Pros and Cons", have a surge of testosterone right before or right after birth that 'masculinizes' their brains. Females don't have the equivalent. The lack of the secretion of ANY hormone at birth allows for the development of a 'female' nervous system.
Giving estrogen to a male dog can actually stimulate male sexual activity, but progesterone on the other hand seems to have a sedating effect and it is likely that this sedative effect makes the dog more amenable to behavior modification therapy. The calming effect of the high level of progesterone is also the reason why it is best to avoid spaying bitches for two months after esterus. Spaying during this time can result in a precipitous drop in progesterone levels with possible accompanying emotional disturbances, irritability, aggression and depression.
Whether to spay, and if so when to spay, is a perennial question in veterinary medicine. If pet owners do not plan to breed from their bitches, most vets strongly recommend spaying in most instances before the dog's first season. Unlike male dogs, females come under no sex hormone influence until they reach puberty. Suddenly a short sharp surge of estrogen, then a prolonged two month surge of progesterone, dramatically alter the dog's behavior until both hormones subside and the dog gets back to "normal" again, back to 'anestrus'. A male dog lives with a constant supply of male hormone circulating in his body and influencing his mind. Females, on the other hand, only come under sex hormone influence typically twice yearly for a total of four months, although there are some bitches that will come into estrous three times yearly.
During that time, and specifically, under the influence of progesterone, ther can be dramatic departures from previous behavior patterns. The most unpleasant is the possesiveness that can develop over objects. Once they develop this hormone induced behavior, it becomes a learned behavior that can continue for life, independent of whenther the bitch is spayed in the future or not. As long as a female is anatomically mature and doesn't have an infantile vulva, then the safest time to spay her is before her first season. That way she will probably never suffer from mammary tumors, the most common tumors in bitches, and she will never suffer the emotional upheavals of estrus and the consequent and normal phantom pregnancy. Spaying affects a dog's ability to work only in that it saves the dog from losing the ability to work because of hormonal surges. Spaying doesn't change the personality of a bitch. If anything, it preserves the natural personality of the animal. The only potential behavioral consequence of spaying is that inherently dominant bitches might become more dominant. Spaying prevents estrous cycles but it does not make a dog less feminine. It can't because in the absence of the testosterone influence at birth, a dog's brain simply IS feminine, as is the human and other mammilian brains. Spaying can, however, stimulate a dog's appetite and alter her metabolic rate. This is why some spayed dogs become overweight. This potential problem can easily be avoided by reducing the calorie intake by around 10-20% after spaying, and by ensuring that the bitch continues to get sufficient exercies.


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