# Basic clicker training?



## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

Hello everyone just wanted some input about clicker training. I have never used a clicker to train basic obedience. Does it make training easier, more efficient ect.? 

Thanks, Sam


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I like clicker training for what I do. I can mark behaviors faster and (to me anyway) less confusion on the dog's part. But like everything, timing is a big part of it.

I would recommend you read Karen Pryor's book on the subject. Your library might even have a copy of it.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

marker training can definitely achieve some awesome results... i personally prefer a verbal mark (yes, good, etc - something short and sharp and happy) over a clicker as you can use it anywhere and anywhen, it leaves both your hands free, and you don't have to make sure you've remembered that pesky clicker...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

IMHO, the BEST at marker training, hands down is Michael Ellis. He has many great DVDs on the subject. 
Lots of his stuff can be seen on Youtube also. 
Balibanov also does a nice job but Ellis has a way of explaining not just the how but why better then anyone presently out there. Again, JMHO!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> IMHO, the BEST at marker training, hands down is Michael Ellis. He has many great DVDs on the subject.
> Lots of his stuff can be seen on Youtube also.
> Balibanov also does a nice job but Ellis has a way of explaining not just the how but why better then anyone presently out there. Again, JMHO!



I agree Bob but both do not in general use clickers, but their voices most times utilizing the word 'YES'. I use both as being a guy with a deep voice, I've been finding the consistency of the clicker to be a lot cleaner than just using my voice for marking behaviours. I use both, (voice and clicker) more so as I do a very complicated sport with my dog (French Ring) and there is many wrong things as many right things, especially in bite work. So it can be advantageous to use both methods to mark behaviours when timing is of the essence. 

As for the OP's question:


> I have never used a clicker to train basic obedience. Does it make training easier, more efficient ect.?


It can for sure but IMO it shouldn't define who you are as a trainer as with anything, you are only as good as your dog's foundation and your timing to mark and shape the behaviours you are looking for. 

If we've done the foundation of the clicker correctly we have to load the clicker with literally thousands of clicks. It has to have that pavlovian effect. The clicker loading is something that has to be done way way in advance to have significant meaning for the dog down the line. http://youtu.be/TBwrj-chNdo


Many people a common mistake when they clicker train put to much emphasis on the 'mark' and then there is a rush to get the reward to the dog which IMO is a mistake as the dog gets marked with the reward not the 'mark' which in turn can confuse the dog. 

With my dog the 'click' or 'YES' means a few things 1. that the dog has done the right thing. 2. that the dog has done the right thing and reward is forthcoming. 3 Excitement @ the prospect of the work, as the work in itself is the reward.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My dog is fixed on the helper. We are in training. I walk out with him to a certain point and the helper positions him self in the hide. The.dog is 10-15 months old. He sits by my side until I give him the command to go.

The dog has learned to bite in the hold after various lessons "biting in the open".

From now on, the dog can link up running round one hide and to the helper.

How can the dog be trained just positively to stay by me until I release him. The more the dog is allowed to bite, the more control he needs. Can this in all honesty be done with positive training??


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Can this in all honesty be done with positive training??



Of course... with dogs that have no passion for the fight... ;-) 

I have an 18 month old male that LOVES to fight... there's no way you can put control into him using positive ONLY. 

This is why when I hear of super dogs, I'm always interested in how they are trained and corrected... Simple as that.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Of course... with dogs that have no passion for the fight... ;-)
> 
> I have an 18 month old male that LOVES to fight... there's no way you can put control into him using positive ONLY.
> 
> This is why when I hear of super dogs, I'm always interested in how they are trained and corrected... Simple as that.


get in his head and you can ... I just finished with a female (already working PSD).... she was all that then some (BIOOOTCH)... not to mention had eaten up two previous handlers on the side of the road...I used a double line and patience... took me 4 30 minute sessions . Works no problems now with a pretty high degree of control (respective to being a PSD). I have done this with lots of dogs... its not that hard to do...


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> My dog is fixed on the helper. We are in training. I walk out with him to a certain point and the helper positions him self in the hide. The.dog is 10-15 months old. He sits by my side until I give him the command to go.
> 
> The dog has learned to bite in the hold after various lessons "biting in the open".
> 
> ...


yep it can be ... teach it in another context (outside of the bite work part) ..


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Check out Bart Bellon ... he does some cool stuff with clickers...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bart Bellon does a lot of "cool stuff" not just with clickers.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Bart Bellon does a lot of "cool stuff" not just with clickers.


but she didnt ask about other cool stuff ... just clickers ...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> but she didnt ask about other cool stuff ... just clickers ...


That's right .. As well just basic OB too.


> I have never used a clicker to train basic obedience. Does it make training easier, more efficient ect.?


I never understand why these type of threads go way off the tracks and turn into a discussion about how reliable this w(c)ould be, or what does my dog having a crapload of fight have to do with the OP's question? LOL! 

Using a clicker for basic OB is a good thing. Sit, Down, Stand, handler engagement, handler focus are all easily reliably trained with basic clicker methods.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Geoff said
"I agree Bob but both do not in general use clickers, but their voices most times utilizing the word 'YES'"


Thus my using the term "marker training" and not clicker training. 

I also use both. Clicker for a new dog and "yes" for after they get a good idea of how it all works.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> My dog is fixed on the helper. We are in training. I walk out with him to a certain point and the helper positions him self in the hide. The.dog is 10-15 months old. He sits by my side until I give him the command to go.
> 
> The dog has learned to bite in the hold after various lessons "biting in the open".
> 
> ...



Gillian here again is that nasty word positive. The Purely Positive folks ave invented that word and it will never apply as spoken. 
I would call it more Operant training. 
Initially I would be holding the leash. NO corrections from me but I will still just hold the leash. In operant language this would be a passive form of correction or one of those + and - things that I usually can't remeber what to call it. When the dog complies with my command it gets the "yes" marker and it will then go for it's reward, the bite. 
The dog can stare at the helper till the sun goes down but "IF" the dog truely understands Operant it will figure out that the only way to the bite is to comply with me first.


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## Edigne Deschuymer (May 1, 2014)

I love training with a clicker. Even with my voice sounds 'good boy' less good when I'm under pressure. A clicker has always the same monotone sound.

When Ingi was a pup a didn't gave any commands but clicked on the behaviour or position I wanted to see.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you can play with clickers all you want. you might have successes; you might not. imo opinion that probably depends on the dog rather than the handler.
for me it's not "training" until you take the time to learn what four words mean ... as they pertain to training dog behaviors 
:
1. positive
2. negative
4. reinforcement
5. punishment
....AND how they relate to behaviors being increased or decreased

everyone can do this in about five minutes 
- but VERY few take the time to apply it and be able to "THINK" these terms as they are being applied.
- because we are all basically lazy and would usually prefer to learn something quickly rather than slowly and methodically

That's probably one reason why people can't understand how a lead can be used both positively and negatively

i've taught over 50 owners what the 4 quadrants of OC mean by using practical applications. They all say they "get it" the first day, but it has always taken weeks to "think it" and apply it consistently ALL the time they are working with their dog ... it has also usually taken a few months after that to get the timing spot on

maybe i'm just a bad trainer and poor teacher, but that's been my experience

in the last few years i don't even use the word "training" anymore 'cause it seems to get opposition reflex from the customer ... as in something they can't do, because they aren't a "trainer"
- so now i just call it conditioning  it's a much easier term for them to understand (regarding markers) when I use the example of how they have conditioned their dog to no longer respond to its own name


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> IMHO, the BEST at marker training, hands down is Michael Ellis. He has many great DVDs on the subject.
> Lots of his stuff can be seen on Youtube also.
> Balibanov also does a nice job but Ellis has a way of explaining not just the how but why better then anyone presently out there. Again, JMHO!


I totally agree.

And like Geoff and Bob, I'd rather call it "marker training" .... verbal marker or clicker, it's a tool that I learned about 7 years ago and I'll never again train without. 8)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Using a clicker [or verbal marker] for basic OB is a good thing. Sit, Down, Stand, handler engagement, handler focus are all easily reliably trained with basic clicker methods."_

If the marker is correctly loaded/charged, the timing is pretty good, and the reward isn't telegraphed, then IMO it's pretty hard to screw it up. 

But I really hope this thread doesn't go the way of all the marker threads involving a former member who equated marker training with "purely positive."

Sure, lots of marker trainers are "purely positive" (meaning no corrections).


But there is nothing about marker training that precludes corrections when/if needed.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes we are right 'clicker' training is just another method of marker training. You can use many things to mark a behaviour not just 'voice' or 'clicker' but even a pat, remote such as a ball popper or manners minder or even your body language can be used to mark desired behaviours. But the OP asked specifically about 'clicker' so that is what I assume we are talking about, silly me.  

As a handler gains more experience in reading dogs it becomes a lot easier to understand how general marker training works. 

Just a word of caution to the OP you can mess up marker training just as easily as anything. I'd really recommend as Bob was saying to check out the Ellis and Balabanov DVDs if you don't have a local trainer to show you the basics. Especially with a dog you are going to do bite sports with. It isn't something that you should jump into without a mentor or a good understanding of where you want to go with it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> .... But the OP asked specifically about 'clicker' so that is what I assume we are talking about, silly me.


Yes, you're so silly!

:lol:

Of course, you're right that the O.P. specifically asked about "basic clicker training."


I guess I always take the opportunity when it presents itself to say that (1) clickers are a kind of marker training, and (2) _marker training_ does not mean, in and of itself, "no corrections ever."


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## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions/ opinions, I've been getting the hang of the clicker but still reading more on it, as soon as I get the clicker and treats Princess already knows where guna be dping something lol


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Samantha Martinez said:


> Thanks everyone for your suggestions/ opinions, I've been getting the hang of the clicker but still reading more on it, as soon as I get the clicker and treats Princess already knows where guna be* dping* something lol


what are you dping?


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> what are you dping?


Yes I'm wondering too. Can you supply video, it may be interesting. Unless it's illegal where you are.


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## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

Im brushing up on her obedience so we can start in IPO, so far weve only been working with a burlap sack on a rope amd shes loving it


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "as soon as I get the clicker and treats Princess already knows where guna be dping something lol"

whatever you do, i hope you realize you can use a clicker without treats.
- if you only use treats with your clicker, your sessions will be feeding sessions and not training sessions. a common mistake when people reach for their clicker and treat bag


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

When I load the clicker (or verbal marker), then that marker means "reward coming!"

So while I eventually phase out the very frequent M+R, I don't give an empty marker. (Of course, the length, or number, of behaviors before the marker will increase substantially over time.)

(And of course, food doesn't have to continue being the reward.)

For me, a beginner marker dog is marked and rewarded very often indeed .... just the loading process calls for that, in fact.

Samantha, you might find it useful to practice (without dog!) in front of a mirror to catch any tendency to hover your hand near the rewards or to move it to the reward at the same instant that you mark. 

JMO!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

rewards don't have to always be food treats


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> rewards don't have to always be food treats


Right! (I mention that above, in parens.)

But to load the marker, IMO, tiny food rewards are really the only efficient reward, fast enough to solidify the timing (and the connection between the marker and the reward).

And for the beginning marker work, food treats again best satisfy the need for a steady stream of fast (and non-interrupting) reward.

Tug and toy rewards come later, for me, and so do favorite games, rubs and pats, and so on.

JMO!


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## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

I usually use treats because thats what i have found easiest that works for her. If I have a ball or a tug she only wants to play


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## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

Connie Sutherland said:


> When I load the clicker (or verbal marker), then that marker means "reward coming!"
> 
> So while I eventually phase out the very frequent M+R, I don't give an empty marker. (Of course, the length, or number, of behaviors before the marker will increase substantially over time.)
> 
> ...


Ill try that and see if I pick up on anything, I usually have a hand full of treats broken into small pieces behind me and the clicker in front,


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I think you will like a snap-open bait bag very much. It can be worn so the pouch is beside or behind you.

When I work on basic ob with someone else's dog, the owners usually end up wanting the kind of bait bag I wear. :lol:


One thing (important) is that you will want the dog's focus on your face. Telegraphing the reward with your hand will draw his attention to your hand. (JMO)

So I do all I can to make that hand neutral as heck. :grin:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Samantha Martinez said:


> Ill try that and see if I pick up on anything, I usually have a hand full of treats broken into small pieces behind me and the clicker in front,



Get your self a bait bag or better yet a training vest. You can get a cheap fishing or hunting vest at Cabelas or Bassproshop on the cheap then you can hide the ball or tug and use those as rewards on top of the food. I put my clicker on a extendable lanyard like a janitor's retractable key ring. You can use a wrist strap too so the clicker is always close by. It makes it easier to 'mark' as well easier to reward if the tool is handy and accessible. 

As Rick and Connie was saying. The 'Mark' only means that reward is forthcoming. Reward for my dogs can be anything. A piece of food, ball, a bite on the decoy, moving ahead in the exercise, a scratch behind the ears etc.

If we've done the foundation of the clicker 'mark' correctly we have to load the clicker with literally thousands of clicks. It needs to have that pavlovian effect. The clicker loading is something that has to be done way way in advance to have significant meaning for the dog down the line. Then you can use it 'the mark' and mix up your rewards and even delivery of rewards for desired behaviours. I sometimes have another person on the field reward my dog with a toy, i.e jumps for example. 

You can really have marker training get really deep if you want. But yet is starts off so simply. It is very powerful.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Get your self a bait bag or better yet a training vest. You can get a cheap fishing or hunting vest at Cabelas or Bassproshop on the cheap then you can hide the ball or tug and use those as rewards on top of the food. I put my clicker on a extendable lanyard like a janitor's retractable key ring. You can use a wrist strap too so the clicker is always close by. It makes it easier to 'mark' as well easier to reward if the tool is handy and accessible.
> 
> As Rick and Connie was saying. The 'Mark' only means that reward is forthcoming. Reward for my dogs can be anything. A piece of food, ball, a bite on the decoy, moving ahead in the exercise, a scratch behind the ears etc.
> 
> ...


IMHO, this is a terrific post!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> IMHO, this is a terrific post!



Ditto +


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

To clarify how I use my clicker with the retractable line. I attach it to a double lanyard with my whistle I use for recalls, the double lanyard is made by Mendota. http://www.mendotaproducts.com/whistlelanyards.html 

As for the retractable spool for my clicker I picked it up at Business depot/Staples it is used for employee pass card holders. http://www.staples.ca/en/Staples-Kl...eychain-Silver-24/product_461773_2-CA_1_20001 It is cheap and very stealthy. As say when I am proofing a jump for a trial I can stand naturally and the dog doesn't see the clicker and I can mark a successful jump easily and the picture for the dog doesn't change from training to trial. It's brilliant if I must say so myself! LOL!  

I know a bit advanced for basic marker training but that is where my marker training has evolved into.


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## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

Thanks for all the info guys, I'll be looking for the bait bag this weekend or something I can improvise with.

Another question, when I'm doing the obedience with her at home she usually does pretty good does not get distracted much unless shes tired/doesnt feel like doing it lol, but when we're at the IPO club and I'm doing the obedience she starts to look at all the other dogs, trainers and just about everything else but me, so how can I get her to focus on just me. I've been working on the "look" command for about a week or so and shes getting better but it doesmt seem to be much help.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Samantha
try and get the perspective that OB in the house, with or without "house distractions" is about a .5 on a scale of 1-10 

nice place to learn a basic move, but after that GET OUT OF THE HOUSE 
- front yard with traffic going by, in public away from people, while walking the dog, in public near people, and night time as well as daytime,,,,,on and on
- be SURE and constantly raise the bar at a level the dog can still handle without conflict, and when you go too far, back it up
- then apply the same principle at training, and go more often


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Geoff Empey said:


> Get your self a bait bag or better yet a training vest. You can get a cheap fishing or hunting vest at Cabelas or Bassproshop on the cheap then you can hide the ball or tug and use those as rewards on top of the food. I put my clicker on a extendable lanyard like a janitor's retractable key ring. You can use a wrist strap too so the clicker is always close by. It makes it easier to 'mark' as well easier to reward if the tool is handy and accessible.
> 
> As Rick and Connie was saying. The 'Mark' only means that reward is forthcoming. Reward for my dogs can be anything. A piece of food, ball, a bite on the decoy, moving ahead in the exercise, a scratch behind the ears etc.
> 
> ...


I agree and I have been using an old fishing vest I bought at the sports store years ago. Works just as well for stashing a lot of rewards, equipment, water bottles etc. Im the worlds worst about running out with two handfuls of cheese or whatever and wind up dropping them etc.


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## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

Ill have to do that and amp up our training sessions lol


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## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

Brian Anderson said:


> I agree and I have been using an old fishing vest I bought at the sports store years ago. Works just as well for stashing a lot of rewards, equipment, water bottles etc. Im the worlds worst about running out with two handfuls of cheese or whatever and wind up dropping them etc.


I end up dropping the treats as well haha lol I was looking on eBay and Amazon to compare prices for the bait bags


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> Samantha
> try and get the perspective that OB in the house, with or without "house distractions" is about a .5 on a scale of 1-10
> 
> nice place to learn a basic move, but after that GET OUT OF THE HOUSE
> ...


Yes!

I start almost every command inside the house, zero distractions, but then move to the back yard, then the front yard or front porch, then on a line, maybe near the high school football field during practice, or the grassy edge of a retail parking lot, etc., etc. 

Pay special attention to _"when you go too far, back it up" _... if the dog can't focus/engage, then you've moved a bit too fast.
_
"then apply the same principle at training, and go more often"_





I know this is just repeating Rick's post, but people get all snarky about "+1." :lol:


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## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

The nearest place I have is a park so ill try the OB see how it goes, as far as going more often, sadly the club only meets on Tuesdays so far


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Samantha Martinez said:


> The nearest place I have is a park so ill try the OB see how it goes, as far as going more often, sadly the club only meets on Tuesdays so far


a pretty cool way of teaching the start of a strong recall with a clicker to start out your clicker training (plus there is no leash needed so theres no messing up with it). Have the dog in a corner of the room toss a med to low value treat into the corner. The dog will go for it ... as soon as he turns away from you give the recall command and the moment his head starts to turn towards you click and treat with a higher value food/tug. The goal is not to have a complete recall but to get that response of the head turn and look. After the response is there then start to build distance. Theres all kinds of stuff being done with clickers now and some of it blows my mind! Good luck with the clicker..


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

To keep your dog's focus on you, try to be interesting and upbeat - be the party she wants to be at. 

Don't drill obedience. Keep it short and snappy. Two minutes on the field of good intense focus is better than ten minutes where she's checking out and you need to beg or correct her into paying attention. Put her away while she's still engaged and then bring her out again later. She will be able to focus longer as you train more, but for now, just work short sessions. 

Click and treat for nothing more than being into you and being pushy. Teach her that it's ok to want what you have and that she needs to work for it.

And again, have fun. It's supposed to be fun for you and for your dog. The serious stuff comes later.


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## Samantha Martinez (May 23, 2014)

Thanks for the tips guys, even though its supposed to be it can be frustrating when all her attention goes to the slightest thing passing by lol


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Samantha Martinez said:


> Thanks for the tips guys, even though its supposed to be it can be frustrating when all her attention goes to the slightest thing passing by lol


note my reference to working with her in a corner of a room


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Samantha Martinez said:


> ... it can be frustrating when all her attention goes to the slightest thing passing by lol





Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes!
> 
> I start almost every command inside the house, zero distractions, ... then move to the back yard, then the front yard or front porch, then on a line, maybe near the high school football field during practice, or the grassy edge of a retail parking lot, etc., etc.
> 
> ...


_


IOW, if the dog cannot focus/engage, you have moved too fast. That is, you have moved from no distraction to too much distraction a little too fast. Back up to where the dog CAN focus.

Of course, this is all in addition to being the best show in town. _


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