# Muzzle Work Theory



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I've never seen muzzle work in person and therefore have a limited knowledge of the practice and theory of it. 

Can someone give me a For Dummies Guide to Muzzle Work?

I understand it can be used to build frustration in a dog. It can also be used to test if a dog will bite a man with no equipment. I've heard term "teaching the dog to fight with it's head" which is confusing to me. Why would a dog need to use it's head when it has teeth?

How do you typically start muzzle work?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Did you do a search? I would really think this would have been beat to death. I might be wrong though, just saying, well you know, sorta kinda


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Yeah I searched and there are no good threads addressing it from a basic point of view...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> I've never seen muzzle work in person and therefore have a limited knowledge of the practice and theory of it.
> 
> Can someone give me a For Dummies Guide to Muzzle Work?
> 
> ...


Some people use prey only in the work, others use it in conjunction with civil agitation...some people use it to teach the dog to punch hard with the initial strike only, and others use it for ground fighting. Sometimes it used it for control work. Sometimes used to get dogs focus off of equipment, or to get dogs to be more indiscriminate, or to work on passive suspects in street clothes. sometimes it is for sport such as an OG, or the Swedish Protection sport.

what would be your reason for doing it, to what goal? 

There are several articles online about it. some are similar some aren't. There are more out there, here is a few.

Mark Oliver
http://www.dog-training-tips-now.com/police-dogs-muzzle-fighting.html

Terry Bradshaw
http://www.tarheelcanine.com/blogtc/1/2008/10/Effective-Muzzle-Fighting.cfm

Joe Tovar
http://www.texaspsp.com/article/muzzeletrainingarticle.htm



Here are some videos..not giving opinions on them just giving video links...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N54T75k9_xA&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgr52Ii1UKs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA0uqi_NAyE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ZCcbeF7kA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ShFW9353ek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDd6JkKiZLM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOg0nqMmEJ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vP68hfxy94

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12lL5UC4l_I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTSa8Rp56OU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoI_Yz7VfSs

http://www.youtube.com/user/topflightk9?blend=23&ob=5#p/u/0/aOsGup34rDo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIbvk7wVrlw


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> what would be your reason for doing it, to what goal?


Thanks Joby!

Honestly it's 100% curiosity. More of my training is self taught than should be and this is just something I was curious about.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

This is just speculation, something to think about.

The new materials and construction methods have reduced the 
emphasis on the muzzle, which could be thought of as a way 
for a man to train a dog in a more interactive manner.

The older style suits, similar to KNPV in construction, were
pretty heavy and restricting.

My impression is that the sleeve style sports, mostly Schutzhund,
have not put too much emphasis on the muzzle work.

Interesting photo:

http://www.angelplace.net/Angel/Cendrillo.htm


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> This is just speculation, something to think about.
> 
> The new materials and construction methods have reduced the
> emphasis on the muzzle, which could be thought of as a way
> ...


Jim.

Do you mean materials of suits have reduced the emphasis on the muzzle? Nice pics.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> Jim.
> 
> Do you mean materials of suits have reduced the emphasis on the muzzle? Nice pics.


Sorry, I was typing faster than I was thinking, again.

Sixty years ago, suits were heavy and stiff. So the dog's adversary was
always this awkward, slow, puffy creature. Not reality. Notice in the photo
it looks like the helper is wearing the pants but not a jacket.

The muzzle allowed the dog to engage a more agile, quick, realistic
bad guy. More like real life. More like a real criminal a police dog would see.

But the new fabrics have made suits much lighter, much more flexible.
The helper no longer looks so much like pillow suit guy. So the training
experience is more realistic.

So there is less need for a muzzle to show the dog the agile, quick helper.

I am not claiming some great historical revelation, just something to think about.

Like everything else in life, things go in and out of fashion.

Read the Conrad Most book, just about 100 years old now. See how many
"new" ideas are just rediscovered.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> Sorry, I was typing faster than I was thinking, again.
> 
> Sixty years ago, suits were heavy and stiff. So the dog's adversary was
> always this awkward, slow, puffy creature. Not reality. Notice in the photo
> ...



Thanks for clarifying, and interesting perspective. I am tired. I have a question I can't get out.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I like the muzzle to teach ground fighting. Safety for the decoy is the main reason. Also, By using a muzzle you can tell which dog is more prey driven as opposed to being in a combat mode. There's no question that the use of the muzzle can build commitment to the strike. The trick is to have a decoy that knows when to reward a proper muzzle strike to teach the dog to come in harder.

Finally...a side benefit is teaching the dog to be relaxed while in a muzzle. There are times when the muzzle does not mean time to bite. Properly conditioned, the muzzle is just another peice of equipment and not a trigger.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> I like the muzzle to teach ground fighting. Safety for the decoy is the main reason. Also, By using a muzzle you can tell which dog is more prey driven as opposed to being in a combat mode. There's no question that the use of the muzzle can build commitment to the strike. The trick is to have a decoy that knows when to reward a proper muzzle strike to teach the dog to come in harder.
> 
> Finally...a side benefit is teaching the dog to be relaxed while in a muzzle. There are times when the muzzle does not mean time to bite. Properly conditioned, the muzzle is just another peice of equipment and not a trigger.


Howard, I have only seen limited muzzle application. 


Could you expand on "reward" in this context ?

Do trainers often wear a gauntlet or hidden sleeve just
in case a dog get's the muzzle off ?

I think every dog should be accustomed to a muzzle. If he is injured it 
makes it much easier for the vet to help him if you can easily muzzle your
dog. We usually bring a muzzle along to the vet, just in case.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I require my teams to perform obedience and the agility course as well in muzzle. After they have learned the basics I have them mostly perform searches and upon locating engaging in any position the quarry has decided to assume.

If all you do in muzzle is manwork, I feel as well he is harder to control in it.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> Howard, I have only seen limited muzzle application.
> 
> 
> Could you expand on "reward" in this context ?
> ...


 Hi Jim,

When I say "reward" by the decoy, I mean a reaction to what the dog is doing. Should a good strike be made the decoy should react in a positive way ie: grunt, groan and physically react in a way which gives the dog confidence in what he is doing. An exceptional strike should bring the decoy to the ground....a piss poor strike shouldn't bring the decoy down. A good decoy is a great actor. To stand there like superman on an excellent strike doesn't do a thing to help the dog.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Muzzles can build some dogs up. My DS was a beast, especially when wearing his muzzle. A good decoy is a must because a dog needs to win in the muzzle if your doing manwork. At first, if the dog slightly touches the decoy, down he goes. I've never worn hidden sleeve or gauntlet during a muzzle fight exercise but be aware- accidents can and do happen.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't care or recommend ground fighting in a muzzle. Most of you know why. I'm not saying I would do it but maybe two times. After that you will know what the dog will do on the ground and will not need to do it again.

I'll try to search those videos. If someone finds them before me Please post.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> When I say "reward" by the decoy, I mean a reaction to what the dog is doing. Should a good strike be made the decoy should react in a positive way ie: grunt, groan and physically react in a way which gives the dog confidence in what he is doing. An exceptional strike should bring the decoy to the ground....a piss poor strike shouldn't bring the decoy down. A good decoy is a great actor. To stand there like superman on an excellent strike doesn't do a thing to help the dog.


I expect that since the actual bite is not there it is the "actor" skills of the decoy that makes the whole thing effective.

This seems to be pretty much a police trainer sort of thing; it is kind of sad that "sport" and police work have diverged so much, especially in America. I have been a Schutzhund enthusiast for years, and still am in the original way the sport was meant, but it is going in the wrong direction, and everybody is in denial.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I don't care or recommend ground fighting in a muzzle. Most of you know why. I'm not saying I would do it but maybe two times. After that you will know what the dog will do on the ground and will not need to do it again.
> 
> I'll try to search those videos. If someone finds them before me Please post.


Muzzle come off ???


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

No it stayed on. The videos on that thread are no longer there.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I don't care or recommend ground fighting in a muzzle. Most of you know why. I'm not saying I would do it but maybe two times. After that you will know what the dog will do on the ground and will not need to do it again.
> 
> I'll try to search those videos. If someone finds them before me Please post.


 I will agree with this statement for dogs with good combat skills. Dogs with high prey drive generally will stop trying to bite once a decoy stops moving on the ground. I want a patrol dog to bite a passive target so the dog needs to be taught to continue to bite on passive.

Special care must be taken to ensure that the muzzle is safely in place. Muzzle fighting is not for the faint of heart. A dog properly introduced to the muzzle wont try to remove it in the fight which enhances the safety for the decoy. In ground fighting with an intended bite we use covert equipment and a tag line on the muzzle. Once the dog is really in it hard we remove the muzzle via tag line and give the dog a bite. Good Line handling skills is a must. This teaches the dog that the harder he fights, the better the chances of a bite to satisfy his need to finally physically engage. I've always done it and will continue to do so for PSDs.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jim Engel said:


> This seems to be pretty much a police trainer sort of thing;


Although PSA is the only really active sport here in the US that includes muzzle fighting, I know quite a few sport trainers who do muzzle work with their dogs. More than you might think, I just think most don't put photos or videos of it on the WWW. I have a few videos on the web, one of them was linked to earlier in this thread, but most of the muzzle sessions I've seen nobody is video taping, for various reasons.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Although PSA is the only really active sport here in the US that includes muzzle fighting, I know quite a few sport trainers who do muzzle work with their dogs. More than you might think, I just think most don't put photos or videos of it on the WWW. I have a few videos on the web, one of them was linked to earlier in this thread, but most of the muzzle sessions I've seen nobody is video taping, for various reasons.


PSA has muzzle fighting? can you describe what they do? what levels or give link? is that new?

thanks


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm not too worried about the safety of the decoy when dog is wearing the muzzle. What worries me is the picture you are giving the dog during ground fighting with the muzzle on. The dog is then trained to bite whoever is on the ground even during a LE fight. If the dog is trained to ground fight and the LE is on the ground guess who is going to get bit. This was the video that I was looking for. In the training video that was posted of the LE being on the ground the dog DID bite the officer 90+ % of the time.

We don't ground fight and I had said our dogs would not bite us. We posted video which proved my case. Out of three different dogs NONE bit the handler.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i remember that video jerry--and it was rather shocking that the dog really did try to engage his handler if it was the handler that was on the ground or, if i remember correctly, the bottom man.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> PSA has muzzle fighting? can you describe what they do? what levels or give link? is that new?


I'd have to go look in the rule book for what levels it's allowed at, but I've seen it used at multiple trials. One trial it was a send on a passive person reading a newspaper, after the hit then they fought. Another trial I don't remember the exact setup, but I believe it was a fight with an active person. Like a lot of things in PSA, it's pretty much up to the judge how they do the scenario.

It's not something new, the trial I remember with the passive person was at least 3 or 4 years ago. They also have a heel in muzzle exercise now, which I believe was implemented 2-3 years ago. Someone more active in the sport would probably have more details, I've competed a few times, but mainly attended trials as a spectator.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

We use to teach the dog to use its weight and pack a initially harder punch like somebody already mentioned and civil side as well to see if the dog will engage for real along with hidden equipment to make a accurate determination.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

In psa Level 3 muzzle work is possible but not mandatory, in the threes every trial is different and the judge decides out of the level three scenerios what will have to be performed.......im about 99.9 im right on this but if im wrong...Someone will correct me.. but i can garuntee muzzle sends has been done in the threes in past trials!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

You're right Ann , the PSDs went for the bottom man (his handler). The PPDs that we used went for the bad guy 100% of the time.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> You're right Ann , the PSDs went for the bottom man (his handler).


yep, and it looked to me like a training issue for sure, and one LE should have been aware of, but hey, i'm just an internet trainer, esp with PSD/PPDs. 

but how to fix the issue once it's there? seems like it could be sticky. but don't have even a morsel of an idea. hmmmm....


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