# How do you begin? Thoughts about breeding



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

How does someone who is contemplating and considering breeding in the future begin? In an ideal and perfect world, what things must one do to become a successful breeder?

This is what Ive gotten from reading many comments, thread and articles from this forum and others. If you are wondering, I am not a breeder now. _"These thoughts are as much for me as for anyone else. I'm in this process right now"._ 

The most important question to first resolve is the why question. Why do you want to start breeding in the first place? Is it out of love, passion, attempt to improve the breed? Or is it money, building a name, hobby...etc. After settling the why question on breeding, then one can proceed.

It seems me the first steps in breeding, is *assessment*. Assess yourself and assess your dog. One has to face the brutal facts. Ask the right questions, in terms of experience and skill level, knowledge about the specific breed, strength, weakness and breed issues. What is your capabilities and limitations. How much experience or exposure and understanding do you have about breeding? 

Educate yourself, Research books, videos, etc..., of course theory is not the same as experience, but it's a good start point. Start doing something with dogs if you are not doing something now. It will fill-in the blanks so to speak about many areas in the world of dogs. Get involve with a sport, training group. 

What about your dog? Maturity level, health check ups, possible breed suitability test. Genetics and Lineage. What are these lines known for producing. What has the sibling of you dog achieved? This is why title's are important, titles is way to tract, measure potential. It's vital one get inputs from others in the know.

2nd is *identify goals*; What is your vision, and objective? What is the end product in mind? What do you want to produce? Service dogs for Police, military, sport, PP, etc.. A good starting point is writing down exactly what is your dream dog? Then adjust to what is achievable and a realistic goal.

3rd comes the *planning*, intense *preparation*: time and timing, do you have time and is it the right time to do it. What about space, or facilities. Make sure you have plenty of money set aside, "_money makes the world go around"_. and get other people to help. 

Then you can begin to take your baby steps. If possible, seek the best advise, or if you can find a partner who has the history and proven track records. Get a mentor or someone nice enough to coach you! It's important to learn from their experience and mistakes so we don't risk repeating them. 

I'm just wondering how many good breeders now, started with every aspects and components being in place prior to beginning. 

Any input would be appreciated.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

not a breeder but here is my 2cts . I would start with the best brood bitch I could afford. I would look for one that has produced good pups with males of different lines.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Breed dogs for your personal use and take everything others tell you with a huge grain of salt....I mean huge! If they all knew so much they would all have great, healthy dogs. The health of the dogs is the #1 priority. Don't look at titles look at the longevity of your dogs first. No point in wasting years trying to straighten out what others, others you are asking advice from, have screwed up. If the dogs are good and you use them, others will eventually want them. By the time that happens, you will have learned enough hopefully, to recognize valid advice.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I agree with Don, breed what you want and set à big goal and many smal ones fore every liter. 
I have changed My views in à big way sins we starten breeding ower on dogs and evaluate ouer own AND others.

To qoute Public enemy = Don't Believe the Hype  a dog is like à artist, its bigest when its dead  
So meet the dogs, train them and if you can live with them.
We baught 12 dogs when we started ouer kennel, after 4 years of resertch. 4 of thos grow up to be what we thaugt was ok to breed on. Ore from what i seen and lernd 3. If i started over i wuld only used 3 of thos 12.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

I started out buying female pups from combinations I believed in , sometimes even all female pups , raise them observe , do healttest , and keep the ones I have faith in to bring me what I want

if you start to buy so called proven females , you will end up with bitche someone wants to sell for a reason .


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Just came on my way ;-) Dick started his breeding program to produce/keep what he liked in a dog. We do combinations were we want to keep a puppy from, or with us at home, or placed with someone. 
Be alway critical, healthwise and character (good looking is nice, but not the most important thing IMO).



herman williams said:


> I
> if you start to buy so called proven females , you will end up with bitche someone wants to sell for a reason .


Doesn´t have to bad reasons though, we´ve some of our older females for sale. They have had 2-3 litters, we´re done with combining them and want to move on with their offspring. To keep those female only in a kennel, is not what we want for them. So, we sell them. To be a housedog-sportdog, or for someone else to breed.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

selena , there are allways exeptions , but I was speaking in general terms , from some breeders the leftovers are better than other breeders their first pick :mrgreen:

you and dick are definately not what I would call "in general"


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

What Selena says is true about looks & again depends what specifically you are breeding for, "but" if we are going to be continuing a line looks isn't only important aesthetically but form following function. A dogs movement is what catches my eye first (any animal) because it's one of the first things you can really evaluate. A high drive dog that can't move, well you get the picture. I also feel a responsibility to the breed to breed the best example for furtherance of the breed. Now I've seen some pretty awesome mixes that were crosses but movement is usually there. Selena this wasn't said to be contentious.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

:mrgreen: imo most of the dogs we produce are also pretty to see, although i've my preferences. By the way we breed, we breed "recognisable" dogs in looks & character.

Just bought back this 15 mo old dog


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I must admit he looks good, but doesn't look like a Duitse Herder!  I'm a fan of pigment too. I'm actually looking at a Mali for a client PP they're fun to work.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena....

Are you sure that dog is not named NESSIE???? Did you buy him back from someone who lives by a deep lake in Scotland???   He looks familiar..


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

eugene ramirez said:


> How does someone who is contemplating and considering breeding in the future begin? In an ideal and perfect world, what things must one do to become a successful breeder?
> 
> This is what Ive gotten from reading many comments, thread and articles from this forum and others. If you are wondering, I am not a breeder now. _"These thoughts are as much for me as for anyone else. I'm in this process right now"._
> 
> ...


Eugene, I had not even considered the possiblity of breeding my female, until people started asking me if I was going to breed my girl and they showed interest if I would have a litter (Btw none of those people bought a dog,,,LOL). Anyway. I think when I did decide to breed, My long term goals at first were very black and white. I had three specific lines of dogs I wanted to bring together in mine. But as I went on, I found that many variables such as studs were not availiable, or studs I wanted to use showed me something that turned me off to them, the other thing I did not count was me getting smarter...the Idea what I wanted has changed greatly. So, I think yes, I went into this (and still am very much a baby in this) I had everything laid out, nice and neat. I actually got somewhat fustrated that the road to rome was not as straight as I had planned. So these days, I am little more flexible...breeding is not as straighforward as my mind made out to be....and one litter I was really counting on did not take. So, I think it's good to have a plan, it's also good to be flexible. And by flexible I do not mean compromise your standards but be prepared to have to adpat to the resources at your feet. 

And your right, doing the research... I love looking at dogs and pedigrees. I study them. So, that was not so hard. Reading about dogs is pretty much all I read about. So, that was pretty easy for me. And more important having people whom you trust and have breeding programs you admire. And this hypothetical, if I had a friend who breeds, but I would not say they have a program. From time to time they put a good pairing together. But it looks at least to me, there is no real method to what they are doing for the long term. But that does not make them useless. especiall if they are having success...I like to know why they are picking the dogs they are. So maybe I learn how to spot a good producer from them. Now another friend has a program but I do not like the dogs they pick...They are not useless either. I can see what they are doing and see if what they said would happen is happening...and if so, how'd they get there? 

But in the end, yes we try to remove the variables in t he experiment, but in the end breeding is still very much an experiment.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And just a thought on land and space. Though very,very nice to have. It's not necassary. One thing is going to be true. It's going to take longer to hit what you want. Simply cause you cannot house all the dogs you need to. The thing you can do, is breeding contracts back to the pups you sell that you like. I have not done this yet. But have not ruled it out as an option. Some people are not very hip about the breeder retaining some sort of breeding rights. So that's another thing to consider.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

@ Joby, yep sure. Saw somebody just out of his reach, and he's a bit curious/naughty :mrgreen:

Didn't take the pic, his previous owner did.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> @ Joby, yep sure. Saw somebody just out of his reach, and he's a bit curious/naughty :mrgreen:
> 
> Didn't take the pic, his previous owner did.


He is a good looking dog alright, with one hell of a neck....


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Im not a breeder and dont claim to be but if your going to breed working dogs you better do it to create the type of dogs you want! Working dogs are hard to sell! People want the dog to be able to do everything that a top stud should do but they only want to pay 500 bucks! Your better off breeding yorkies! You can sell them all day for 750 and all they have to do is look cute and have papers. they can be little nerve bags that shake and you might sell the whole litter because the people feel bad for them!;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> Im not a breeder and dont claim to be but if your going to breed working dogs you better do it to create the type of dogs you want! Working dogs are hard to sell! People want the dog to be able to do everything that a top stud should do but they only want to pay 500 bucks! Your better off breeding yorkies! You can sell them all day for 750 and all they have to do is look cute and have papers. they can be little nerve bags that shake and you might sell the whole litter because the people feel bad for them!;-)


teddy bear dogs 2500.00
shitzu X toy poodle...no health checks no training, no testing....just breed..and sell...and no matter how nutty you are, you will be a guru...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

but I do not think what I want is so unique from certain tribes in working dogs. I am sure most breeders bred a certain kind of dog and attract a certain kind of buyer. And when people start telling me what they want, and what they want to pay. I do not even respond. My first level of weeding people out now is a prospective buyer form. People that are not even willing to fill it out?...Well it's a self cleaning oven.

My favorite statements. " I want a national level dog" My response..." how many nationals have you won?"

And "what do you guarntee?"... "I guarntee you can screw any puppy up in twenty four hours"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Selena....
> 
> Are you sure that dog is not named NESSIE???? Did you buy him back from someone who lives by a deep lake in Scotland???   He looks familiar..




I'm betting that there is a lot more "monster" in Dick and Selena's' dogs then the average Dutchie. :twisted: :wink:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Also our dogs, are just dogs ;-) we like them a lot though ;-) :mrgreen:


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Cmon i thought everyone knew for breeding all you need is some Pike dogs,FCI malinois or some of Dons dales:twisted:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

i meant no disrespect...that dog has a damn impressive long neck....


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Breed dogs for your personal use and take everything others tell you with a huge grain of salt....I mean huge! If they all knew so much they would all have great, healthy dogs. The health of the dogs is the #1 priority. _Don't look at titles look at the longevity of your dogs first._ No point in wasting years trying to straighten out what others, others you are asking advice from, have screwed up. If the dogs are good and you use them, others will eventually want them. By the time that happens, you will have learned enough hopefully, to recognize valid advice.


@ Don,
can you please clarify "Don't look at titles look at the longevity of your dogs first" what you mean by not looking at titles? Do you mean to not even consider dogs with titles? What do you mean longevity? Are you referring to the how long the Stud and Dam will live, or the longevity of the offsprings they produce? Thanks again...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

eugene ramirez said:


> @ Don,
> can you please clarify "Don't look at titles look at the longevity of your dogs first" what you mean by not looking at titles? Do you mean to not even consider dogs with titles? What do you mean longevity? Are you referring to the how long the Stud and Dam will live, or the longevity of the offsprings they produce? Thanks again...


The overall health of the dogs you are breeding is the priority. Titles today doen't mean that much. There are probably better dogs in backyards than a lot of dogs that are titled. Look at the dog if possible. If you are planning on breeding seriously, you will have to many years invested to use dogs that have a short work life. Look back as far as you can at the relatives on both sides. You have to realise, getting two unrelated dogs is the beginning. To many folks breeding to titles are putting most of their eggs in one basket counting on that one, possibly untried cross to produce real working stock. Seldom works that way....it would be nice, but, unlikely. Pick the best you see in the litter and keep breeding until you consistenly get good dogs. Pick three really nice dogs to give you some room and tighten them up and forget bringing in new blood untill you have to.


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The overall health of the dogs you are breeding is the priority. Titles today doen't mean that much. There are probably better dogs in backyards than a lot of dogs that are titled. Look at the dog if possible. If you are planning on breeding seriously, you will have to many years invested to use dogs that have a short work life. Look back as far as you can at the relatives on both sides. You have to realise, getting two unrelated dogs is the beginning. To many folks breeding to titles are putting most of their eggs in one basket counting on that one, possibly untried cross to produce real working stock. Seldom works that way....it would be nice, but, unlikely. Pick the best you see in the litter and keep breeding until you consistenly get good dogs. Pick three really nice dogs to give you some room and tighten them up and forget bringing in new blood untill you have to.


Yes I totally agree with you on the health aspect being one of the top priority. But on the titles aspect, though you may be right that for some dogs and people it may not mean that much, I do think it has value. If you can observe the impact sports or any organize competition has contributed to the improvement of any activity, it too massive to mention.

Just look at the superstar athlete we have today. Do you the think R & D, advances is sport medicine, nutritions, exercise science, etc... has affected our world today?

Another practical example. The ordinary car we drive today. Where do you think most of the advancement and improvement took place? Though they may have started in someone's backyard or garage, did it stay there or did it evolve? Do you think these car companies use any technology from the racing industry? I mean the whole free market system revolves around competition. Competition is good and necessary.

I guess the biggest issue for those who don't believe in titles, what is the standard being used? Is there a minimum, measurable, objective standard on a bigger scale than one person's opinion.

Can one utilize a scientific approach to breeding? Are there seasoned, or experienced breeders that are able to produce a high percentage of there goals in spite of all the challenges and variables involved?

thanks...


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