# Does this seem right?



## Andrew Denver (Aug 2, 2016)

I recently purchased my first Mal and considering picking up another. While I am already VERY attached to my pup and happy to have him, my experience has been questionable with this breeder. First, she tells me time and again that she will send papers so that I can register my pup - I'm tired of having to continue to call her, get promises and then...nothing. Apparently, she is "Very busy"!?

While this leaves a bad taste dealing with her personally, when I travelled eight hours from Colorado to New Mexico to pick-up my dog, I arrived Friday night and made my way to her place at 7:30 the next morning - we had no set time for my arrival. She refused to come out to greet me, telling me, via text, to come back at 9:00 and how inappropriate arriving so early was, I just wanted to get on the road. Later she accused me of coming early to "inspect" her facility. I will say that I expected things to look a little different...21 puppies sharing a pen, in the dirt with chewed up plywood, shoes and kids toys for dog toys, LOADS of poo and a lot of fly traps hanging and full of flies!! 

Once we got home, took my boy to the vet and he had Coccidia, Giardia and worms, all things my vet said is not "rare" in puppies!

She had kennels away from her home with 40+ dogs as well as a few makeshift pens with a few adult dogs.

I still want another Mal and wondering...am I being irrational or does this entire scenario seem a little off!?

Thoughts!?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

IMO, I would not have shown up at 0730 at anyone's house unless they knew I was coming that early. Especially since there was no set time, I would have sent a text the night before and asked if I could have come over early tomorrow so I could get back on the road due to the long trip, etc. You probably caught her still in bed so I don't consider her response out of line.

The pens and such do not appear bad. I know its hard to see small details in pics like this but they look better than several other operations I've seen. I would rather see the pups on dirt then penned up on concrete.

My last pup came to me with giardia and had a UTI which was a first for me and could be within the realm of "normal" although unexpected as it was a first for me. The breeder had done first wormings and I followed up with a second a couple of weeks later. Worms are not uncommon in puppies. 

As far as the papers, who was the litter being registered through? You could contact them and see if they have a litter registration listed with their organization from this breeder. Has the breeder given you any timeframe of when you will see the paperwork? I know my pup was being registered in Germany and they had not yet gotten the papers back by the time I was picking up. They showed up in the mail about a month later along with the chip I needed to put in the dog.

It could also be that you have so pissed of this breeder that she's just being spiteful and delaying sending them to you give a little of your own back to you.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Why do you have to ask? Are you asking if this is typical of breeders? Maybe large volume, in it for the money, churn out puppies as fast as you can sell them breeders, but not what I would want to see if I was looking for a pup. 

When I went to pick up my puppy, oh so many years ago, I drove six hours just to look at them. Then drove home and thought about it for a couple of days before driving back to get my puppy. 

The pups were clean, the kennels were rustic, but also clean and well made, and the few dogs he had on the property looked healthy and happy. 

If I had driven into what you are describing, I would have turned around and started looking for another breeder. But that's me. Why would you want to get another pup from this breeder after all you've been through? Sick pup, rude breeder (though showing up without an appointment at 7:30 is pretty early), difficulty getting paperwork you are entitled to... you really want more of the same? What would make you want to go back there? The superior quality of her breeding dogs? The carefully thought out breeding plans? Health testing? Or was she just the cheapest around with pups on the ground? 

You are going to spend a lot of money on this pup during the course of his lifetime. Stack the cards in your favour by choosing a breeder carefully.


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## Andrew Denver (Aug 2, 2016)

Sarah Platts said:


> IMO, I would not have shown up at 0730 at anyone's house unless they knew I was coming that early. Especially since there was no set time, I would have sent a text the night before and asked if I could have come over early tomorrow so I could get back on the road due to the long trip, etc. You probably caught her still in bed so I don't consider her response out of line.
> 
> The pens and such do not appear bad. I know its hard to see small details in pics like this but they look better than several other operations I've seen. I would rather see the pups on dirt then penned up on concrete.
> 
> ...


Remind me to never buy a pup from you! !


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## Andrew Denver (Aug 2, 2016)

leslie cassian said:


> Why do you have to ask? Are you asking if this is typical of breeders? Maybe large volume, in it for the money, churn out puppies as fast as you can sell them breeders, but not what I would want to see if I was looking for a pup.
> 
> When I went to pick up my puppy, oh so many years ago, I drove six hours just to look at them. Then drove home and thought about it for a couple of days before driving back to get my puppy.
> 
> ...


This is why I asked if this was the norm! Pup wasn't cheap...well, cheap is relative. This woman has some previous negative juju online, including this Forum, but I spoke directly to her numerous times and she sold a good story. Maybe posting this here isn't such a good idea as it appears people here seem to be a bit flip and quick to attack! Think I'll just go with my gut and pick-up a Trikos dog!

Thanks anyway!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Andrew Denver said:


> Remind me to never buy a pup from you! !


Not a problem. Clearly you have certain expectations. I suggest you stop looking at pups and go find a operation with the dogs housed to your criteria. If they are housed the way you like them then get a pup from them because great housing = great pups. 

I am sorry my lack of support for your position comes across as an "attack".

Be well and have a peachy day.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

We are brutally honest on this forum. If you ask for an opinion here then that is exactly what you'll get. If you want rainbows and Unicorns this is not the place to be. If you want the truth, and great training advice then THIS is the place to be. Your choice.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Andrew Denver said:


> I recently purchased my first Mal and considering picking up another.
> 
> ** that doesn't seem right. What's the rush? Are you looking to get one from the same person? Is that why you are asking?
> 
> ...


 My responses are in your quoted material above followed by **.


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## Andrew Denver (Aug 2, 2016)

Howard Knauf said:


> We are brutally honest on this forum. If you ask for an opinion here then that is exactly what you'll get. If you want rainbows and Unicorns this is not the place to be. If you want the truth, and great training advice then THIS is the place to be. Your choice.


Maybe "brutal"?? I've seen a couple threads that were full of materially false statements when bashing a breeder. But, I get your point!


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## Andrew Denver (Aug 2, 2016)

Nicole Stark said:


> My responses are in your quoted material above followed by **.


I do find it kind of funny that some seem to laser focus on my arriving at 7:30 "without prior arrangement". Guess I would think that I wanted to get back on the road for my eight hour drive. The fact that her reply was that she voiced concern that I was "inspecting" her property is what put me off. Whether I want a dog now or in six months, I am wanting to get some input on a better choice of breeders - think I'm going to go with Trikos.

I did my due diligence and spoke exhaustively with this breeder and gave her benefit of the doubt even after this forum bashed her for having had 44 dogs seized a few years back. She won her case, got her dogs back and had all charges dropped, but this forum continued to bash her without any proof of wrongdoing - pretty much the norm with keyboard commandos!!

I'll stick with a more interactive form of vetting. Thanks anyway for the replies!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Andrew Denver said:


> Maybe "brutal"?? I've seen a couple threads that were full of materially false statements when bashing a breeder. But, I get your point!


 What that be _this_ breeder?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Andrew Denver said:


> I do find it kind of funny that some seem to laser focus on my arriving at 7:30 "without prior arrangement". Guess I would think that I wanted to get back on the road for my eight hour drive. The fact that her reply was that she voiced concern that I was "inspecting" her property is what put me off. Whether I want a dog now or in six months, I am wanting to get some input on a better choice of breeders - think I'm going to go with Trikos.
> 
> I did my due diligence and spoke exhaustively with this breeder and gave her benefit of the doubt even after this forum bashed her for having had 44 dogs seized a few years back. She won her case, got her dogs back and had all charges dropped, but this forum continued to bash her without any proof of wrongdoing - pretty much the norm with keyboard commandos!!
> 
> I'll stick with a more interactive form of vetting. Thanks anyway for the replies!


 Funny? Why is that funny to you. It's a reasonable expectation to make prior arrangements on a business deal. Dog or no dog. That's what this was and should have been treated as such. Thus, it's reasonable to expect that you would have made an appointment with her in advance.

Besides, on my end that "laser focus" stems from the fact that I sleep very little and have a busy, slightly chaotic schedule. Structure and organization are important to me. I like things that I can count upon. Let's say this breeder has a general routine that involves caring for her animals during the period of time you chose to show up. Do you feel that your desire to get on the road is more important than the well being of her animals? 

Lots of people have their dogs shipped to them. The fact that you chose the option of making a 16 hr round trip to pick the pup up, comes with responsibilities and challenges that are your burden, not hers. 

You said something interesting, which I think puts some of this into focus. The fact that at one time she had 44 dogs, which were seized would be a legitimate cause for her to say what she did to you. BUT, if she wasn't doing anything wrong I assure you those words would have never come out of her mouth. That's like freaking out because the spouse comes home early when you are normally doing something you shouldn't be. 

See the parallel? If it's the first conclusion she drew as to the purpose of your early arrival I'd say she's got something to be concerned about. A default or conclusion of guilt or assumed wrong doing sounds screwed up to me.

About asking for a better choice of breeders, why didn't you just say that? It's precisely why I joined this forum. Someone I was looking at was a member here, I figured this would be a good way to get introduced. That said, the breeder of my dog in is your home state. I got a good dog from him, at least I got exactly what I wanted and that says a lot in my book.

Anyway, I don't know who this person is. You asked questions and in some cases without proper context or a reasonable frame of reference to give you an informed answer for. As such you are going to get off the cuff responses. It's not personal, it's just what you asked for. Thoughts.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm trying to figure out what you're looking for here. Are you defending this breeder, or questioning your decision to buy from her? 

If she was "bashed" on this forum in the past, then why come here and post about her? To add fuel to that long dead fire? To tell a bunch of posters who have long since stopped posting they were wrong? Why? 

If you were put off by her, her dogs, or her facilities, why did you take a puppy? Just because you drove all the way there and had cash burning a hole in your pocket? 

Or are you just drumming up business for Trikos, home of the $55000 + personal protection dog?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> I'm trying to figure out what you're looking for here. Are you defending this breeder, or questioning your decision to buy from her?
> 
> If she was "bashed" on this forum in the past, then why come here and post about her? To add fuel to that long dead fire? *To tell a bunch of posters who have long since stopped posting they were wrong?* Why?
> 
> ...


What I wanna know is what happened to the guy who was in his "control center" he amused me very much.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> What I wanna know is what happened to the guy who was in his "control center" he amused me very much.


 Who are you talking about?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Or are you just drumming up business for Trikos, home of the $55000 + personal protection dog?


 Is that who that is? WTF...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Who are you talking about?


Guy on here ages ago who used to have a "command center" or maybe I got that mixed up with "Doberman Talk" sounds like a crazy Doberman thing to say.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Guy on here ages ago who used to have a "command center" or maybe I got that mixed up with "Doberman Talk" sounds like a crazy Doberman thing to say.


You are speaking of the (in)famous Michael Murphy, resident of the Land of Oz, that pined for a Mal that was a SuperDog capable of being radio-controlled while he was firmly ensconced in the sub-terrain command bunker. Supposed to have gotten said Mal puppy and disappeared into the Land of one's and zero's


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Andrew Denver said:


> I do find it kind of funny that some seem to laser focus on my arriving at 7:30 "without prior arrangement".


 Well, Yeah. cause it was your complaint when she didn't immediately leap from the house when she was probably still not dressed. It maybe normal in your situation to arrive on doorsteps at an early hour but not everyone shares your desires.



Andrew Denver said:


> Guess I would think that I wanted to get back on the road for my eight hour drive.


 My last puppy involved plane travel, a couple of hours of driving, border crossings, and importation requirements courtesy of the USDA. But I would not have dreamed of showing up on a doorstep at anything before 0900 without prior arrangements. 



Andrew Denver said:


> I am wanting to get some input on a better choice of breeders - think I'm going to go with Trikos.
> I did my due diligence and spoke exhaustively with this breeder and gave her benefit of the doubt even after this forum bashed her ........I'll stick with a more interactive form of vetting. Thanks anyway for the replies!


I wish you the best of luck. Sometimes its a crap shoot even after you do all due diligence. If the situation doesn't happen the way you like, then move on and find someone else you like better. If Trikos has what you want and at a price you can afford then I would be beating a path to their door.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Matt Vandart said:


> Guy on here ages ago who used to have a "command center" or maybe I got that mixed up with "Doberman Talk" sounds like a crazy Doberman thing to say.


Not Michael Murphy. He seemed a little obsessed with finding the most badass dog ever, but I don't recall him holed up in his lair worried about security breaches. 

Had to look through some old threads. Compound boy was Rick Scott.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> You are speaking of the (in)famous Michael Murphy... Supposed to have gotten said Mal puppy and disappeared into the Land of one's and zero's


I want to know why that happened. If I am not mistaken, he hooked up with Chris Jones. I had a lot of respect for Chris and figured he knew what he was doing when he set Michael up. So what happened. Where did he go and whatever became of that? Did the pup turn out? How did Michael do with her?

There was another guy on here who trained dogs in a way that sounds like Matt was referring to but I don't ever recall command central being a part of anything he spoke of. That might have been Matt's impression of what he had to say. I don't know.

BTW Rick Scott, I suspect is one of those spin off "catfish" type aliases that people to create only for the sake of creating dialogue without being identified as who they really are.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

JMHO but the pup having so many health issues pretty much tells you what you want to know about the breeder.

"Let the buyer beware"!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> Not Michael Murphy. He seemed a little obsessed with finding the most badass dog ever, but I don't recall him holed up in his lair worried about security breaches.
> 
> Had to look through some old threads. Compound boy was Rick Scott.


Yes! Rick Scott, so many fun people have disappeared from here, it sucks ass. I would also like to know what happened to MM and his pup. Last I heard the pup was not up to his expectations.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

HI Andrew
I dont think what you describe is right.
I expect a reputable breeder to provide a healthy pup. Free of all parasites and disease. From a line that's healthy.

And for the 1st time in my life, saved up a LOT of money. And went to the kennel producing the best dogs (prize winning IPO relatives of my pup).

What i got: bullshit, lies, deception. and a pup with undescended testes. I returned the pup to the Dam's owner, who provided me a full refund.

I went to another breeder, with my refunded LOTS of money. And got a pup, that was healthy. And papers would arrive soon. I chased papers with one sms, politely enquiring when i could expect the papers. I got a rude sms back, with the people i could complain to. 
A week went by. My papers arrived.  my pup had been desexed, and was not on the main register, NOT what i paid for! The pup is not IPO material. Her nerve is weaker than i would like.

MY decision was: keep the pup, it is what it is. I"ll get the best i can out of her, and learn a lot along the way. And NEVER EVER will i purchase a pup unseen, OR from a breeder again.

Some lessons in life are tough. This was a touch lesson, it hurt. 

IF anyone turned up here unannounced at 7.30am, id thnik it was because they had a long drive ahead of them, and as i am up at 5am, not an issue for me. I know however, that walking dogs in pre dawn, and being up that early is unusual for most humans. So can see why they would be miffed.

Anyone leaping to the line "you're trying to inspect me" is likely up to no good.

Dog breeder: think money making machine, doesnt really give a shit about the pups. It is what it is. 
Apparently, there are some really good breeders, of excellent lineage pups, who do care. But ive not met one yet. 

And i wont go searching for one again.


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## Andrew Denver (Aug 2, 2016)

Sarah Platts said:


> Well, Yeah. cause it was your complaint when she didn't immediately leap from the house when she was probably still not dressed. It maybe normal in your situation to arrive on doorsteps at an early hour but not everyone shares your desires. I'm trying to find somewhere I stated, "She didn't leap from the house". Based upon our previous conversations, she it it very clear she was up at 4:30 every morning speaking to Europe selling dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Andrew Denver (Aug 2, 2016)

shelle fenton said:


> HI Andrew
> I dont think what you describe is right.
> I expect a reputable breeder to provide a healthy pup. Free of all parasites and disease. From a line that's healthy.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the solid reply!!! I will DEF not be securing another dog from her! My initial query was just to determine if this was the norm in the breeder world, not to get BS from my post. As I stated, she has a history of bing bashed online, but I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt and realize there a lot of keyboard commandos who take any opportunity to lash out. Unfortunately, in this xcase, it appears people were correct! On the upside, after posting this, she reached out to lash out and share that,as of this morning, she has registration on the way (at least she sent me a screen shot of what she claims is registration for my dog).

I went so far as to offer the services of my business to assist her in some of the damage she has received from the online postings. I now understand that they appear to have merit and be well-deserved. My dog is my dog, no chance I would return him, regardless if I get papers or not. 

After having him chipped, dewormed, treated for giardia and coccidiosis he is feisty and a great pup!!! 

As you said, lesson learned! Getting a dog from Trikos may be a bit spendy, but there has been ZERO credible information that I've found to suggest they and their dogs are less than stellar!!

Thanks again for your productive and objective reply!!


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## Andrew Denver (Aug 2, 2016)

Bob Scott said:


> JMHO but the pup having so many health issues pretty much tells you what you want to know about the breeder.
> 
> "Let the buyer beware"!


Thanks for the reply! It was kinda my searching to find if what I experienced is the norm. This woman told me to expect these things with pups. Others have told me that a breeder with 50+ dogs and most all of them being housed on dirt is a bad sign. I'm not a breeder and didn't not have experience either way. Lesson learned. My guy is now healthy and lesson learned!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Andrew Denver said:


> I recently purchased my first Mal and considering picking up another. While I am already VERY attached to my pup and happy to have him, my experience has been questionable with this breeder. First, she tells me time and again that she will send papers so that I can register my pup - I'm tired of having to continue to call her, get promises and then...nothing. Apparently, she is "Very busy"!?
> 
> While this leaves a bad taste dealing with her personally, when I travelled eight hours from Colorado to New Mexico to pick-up my dog, I arrived Friday night and made my way to her place at 7:30 the next morning - we had no set time for my arrival. She refused to come out to greet me, telling me, via text, to come back at 9:00 and how inappropriate arriving so early was, I just wanted to get on the road. Later she accused me of coming early to "inspect" her facility. I will say that I expected things to look a little different...21 puppies sharing a pen, in the dirt with chewed up plywood, shoes and kids toys for dog toys, LOADS of poo and a lot of fly traps hanging and full of flies!!
> 
> ...


I looked over your photos, Andrew. I know people who live in worse facilities with dogs who are walking skeletons!


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## Andrew Denver (Aug 2, 2016)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I looked over your photos, Andrew. I know people who live in worse facilities with dogs who are walking skeletons!


That's what I was hoping for, a little confirmation that the dogs living on the dirt was no issue. I was just curious as other breeders I had visited in my area had actual kennels with concrete floors, etc. I still don't know that I'm a fan of allowing these dogs to use plywood as chew toys, but I have my boy at home now - and can control that - have had him chipped, dewormed and treated for a couple other "infections" and he is all good to go!!

Thanks!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirt's better for puppies, concrete can cause the pups to have flat feet.

Some of my best dogs cost less than £300 and are/were unregisterd, Indie is unregistered and was £150 he's awesome. Alis was £300 unregistered and is now a police dog. Registration is BS and just money making scheme IMO.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

A good dog is where you find it. My experience has been it can be the lesser known breeder, the one who breeds for himself first, that tends to be the best kind of people to get dogs from.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Dirt's better for puppies, concrete can cause the pups to have flat feet.
> 
> Some of my best dogs cost less than £300 and are/were unregisterd, Indie is unregistered and was £150 he's awesome. Alis was £300 unregistered and is now a police dog. Registration is BS and just money making scheme IMO.



I agree 100% Matt. Unfortunately to many want those "papered" dogs.

The JRTCA will not register whole litters.

Only individual pups that have been cleared by a vet from having any known genetic issues will be registered. 

They still work for a truly functional dog. 

I never bothered to register my JRT simply because I don't even use papers UNDER my dogs to house break them. :-o :grin:

He was one helluva dog in the ground though.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The doberman people went mental on me when I said I had lost her registration papers AHHAHAHAHAHA
I said I was interested in the dog not the papers as I wasn't gonna breed from her and they got very upset, lol

Edit: I shouldn't say "the" Doberman people, I mean the crazies in dobermans, which is alot of them by the way.


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