# Prey Drive and Possessiveness



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

How tightly are these two drives linked?

Is it possible to have a dog with extreme prey drive and little possessiveness or is the desire to get the object synonymous with the desire keep it?

On the other hand can a dog have extreme possessiveness and no prey drive? I guess this dog would not actively seek the object or strike it but would refuse to give it up if it came upon it.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't necessarily see a link between the two. For example, good Labs will not be possessive, but will chase and retrieve all day long. Some detection trainers will only select dogs that have both the retrieve and possessivness, personally, I only evaluate the chase, hunt and retrieve. If a dog brings it back to me, drops it wanting to play again, I'm good with that. I see a lot of very good dogs that do exactly that. I should qualify that by saying, it's evaluated more during detection selection than anything else. 

DFrost


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I think a dog should have at least a little possessiveness. I had a german shepherd bitch that would go crazy when she saw any prey item. It looked good till she would bite, then she would just come off and want to start over again. I believe this is because she had no possessiveness. I also attribute her lack of nerves as well. Without even a little I believe a dog is not going to want to stay on the bite, they are only happy to chase down the prey object. I also think you could include fight drive into this equation.
They must desire to possess the object or person and fight to mantain them. I think prey drive and possessiveness is a bit of a cloudy combination. Just my opinion.


----------



## Keagen Grace (Jun 5, 2010)

I believe that possessiveness is an extension of lack of trust and aggression. Prey drive doesn't necessarily equate to wanting to KEEP the item. . . . merely going and getting it. It's training and focus that keep the dog on the item. Possessiveness has its place, but I don't think it's inherently linked to prey drive. Prey drive is merely the desire to go and get a moving object.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Keagen Grace said:


> Prey drive is merely the desire to go and get a moving object.


Back in the "old days", I can say that, ha ha, we used to call it it; prey/kill drive. The prey was the chase, the possession, manipulation etc was the kill. I do agree with you by the way.

DFrost


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My older GSD has Prey drive to match any Lab but not very possessive. His goal in life is to get me to toss "whatever" again.


----------



## Guest (Jun 19, 2010)

The two are not linked in any way and while it can be a trust issue and correct or incorrect training side effect depending on which side you stand on, it is not necessarily a trust or a training issue. Why, is your pup not possessive?


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Vin Chiu said:


> The two are not linked in any way and while it can be a trust issue and correct or incorrect training side effect depending on which side you stand on, it is not necessarily a trust or a training issue. Why, is your pup not possessive?


Medium prey drive and no possessiveness for my older dog. But I'm not looking for advice on my dog. Just something I've been thinking about and curious of.

As a side question how important is possessiveness in a dog destined for protection sports or PSD?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't evaluate possessiveness during selection for PSD. It's my opinion the ability to bite and hold is not a possession issue. 

DFrost


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Possesvieness is not always a Trust issue. Some dogs come out of the shoot genetically more inclined to want to keep what they have. My dog trusts me fine. But she really does not care about trading toys....she would rather just keep what she has. But I can get her to out and let things go. But if she had her way, she would just keep it.

Some dogs are born retrievers some are not. And yes some can be made to "worry" and guard thier things. But I like that my dog is not worried but still has an additude that she is not giving up what she has easily. I think this shows an additude that the dog feels she is entitled to keep the toy.


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I think possessiveness and nerves some of the most important things to look for. I want a dog that looks at the decoy as an object they will possess. I want to see total domination of the decoy like they are just a ragdoll. I dont want a dog with tons of prey drive and very little possession or fight that just runs down the field and bites and hangs on. I want to see them thrashing and pushing in.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Not that it is going to help but out of the many dogs I have had in the field over the years, only one was a kill guarder. Soon as the game was down I had to get a leash on him and tie him back. It was just until the other 2 dogs inspected the carcass and made sure it had no fight left in it them they were off and running to find something that still had fight. At home over a useless object they may guard it, not because they want it but to show the other he can't have it. You see this as pups but adult males are never in the same yards.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> How tightly are these two drives linked?
> 
> Is it possible to have a dog with extreme prey drive and little possessiveness or is the desire to get the object synonymous with the desire keep it?
> 
> On the other hand can a dog have extreme possessiveness and no prey drive? I guess this dog would not actively seek the object or strike it but would refuse to give it up if it came upon it.


 Ben I don't see the connection...prey and hunt drive sure. My retrievers all had prey drive, as they should, but the desire to please me and release the game killed the idea of possessiveness. The desire to please so out weighs with the Labs "ownership" and the only time I would see this is with bad training or a screw loose animal.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Prey drive and possessiveness are clearly separate qualities, and the degree of possessiveness largely has a environmental influence to it. Too much possesiveness can be a pain in the but to train with, but "undoable" to an extent.

I did some imprinting on my ddr female when she was young, which was to help with building some fight and confidence in the tugwork, but ultimately interfered with her willingness to retrieve (return & relinquish) of the toy. Now, that she has been place with a ~70 year old friend, they have been working on that issue with some fairly decent progress.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not that it is going to help but out of the many dogs I have had in the field over the years, only one was a kill guarder. Soon as the game was down I had to get a leash on him and tie him back. It was just until the other 2 dogs inspected the carcass and made sure it had no fight left in it them they were off and running to find something that still had fight. At home over a useless object they may guard it, not because they want it but to show the other he can't have it. You see this as pups but adult males are never in the same yards.



Don, with the little bassids, wanting to possess the carcass is a huge no no. Other then letting a pup rag it a bit it's always ignored.
My old Border usually pissed on anything he killed but that was the extent of his interest after the fact. 
In the case of rat hunting, it's fast and furious and any dog that wastes time for more then a quick shake or crunch is out of the game.
Intense prey and no possessiveness!


----------



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Do you think dominance plays an important role in refusing to let go of an article once retrieved?


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

In my opinion prey drive and possessiveness are two totally different things. In the bloodlines we use there is extreme possessiveness over objects (toys, food, decoy, etc). While this trait can be a huge pain in the butt for many people, it is a quality that we use to our advantage. In most cases the dogs that I see with the highest degree of possessiveness are the one who hunt and retrieve the strongest.
(keep in mind that the word "retrieve" in my world simply means, hunt till you find it, and then carry it and possess it until you are choked off of it) The more possessive a dog is over an object, the more he wants to find it when he does not have it.
I see a very strong connection in our lines with dominance and possessiveness, more so that prey drive and possessiveness. We like dogs with a lot of prey drive and also a lot of possessiveness when we are testing for our contracts.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> ... in my world simply means, hunt till you find it, and then carry it and possess it until you are choked off of it) The more possessive a dog is over an object, the more he wants to find it when he does not have it...


 Mike remind me NEVER to go duck hunting in WVA with you...retriever training may bring a new spin to the word! LOL:evil:


----------



## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I see a very strong connection in our lines with dominance and possessiveness, more so that prey drive and possessiveness.


 Thank you, Mike. I'm sitting here reading this thread thinking the same thing. And I want to see that naturally. The most dominant dog I have is also the one with the best hunt drive and that's also the one that is the most possessive.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Adam, I think most were comparing possessiveness with very high drive rather than dominance. Dominant dogs will possess things simply because they can but not because they want the item. It also, from what I have seen works best if there is another dog there they can deprive of possessing the item. Just isn't just no point in it if they can't make a statement. It is a game to many.


----------



## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

I understand. I guess I'm just re-iterating Mike's post. I'm also of the belief that there's no link between high prey drive and possessiveness.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> In my opinion prey drive and possessiveness are two totally different things. In the bloodlines we use there is extreme possessiveness over objects (toys, food, decoy, etc). While this trait can be a huge pain in the butt for many people, it is a quality that we use to our advantage. In most cases the dogs that I see with the highest degree of possessiveness are the one who hunt and retrieve the strongest.
> (keep in mind that the word "retrieve" in my world simply means, hunt till you find it, and then carry it and possess it until you are choked off of it) The more possessive a dog is over an object, the more he wants to find it when he does not have it.
> I see a very strong connection in our lines with dominance and possessiveness, more so that prey drive and possessiveness. We like dogs with a lot of prey drive and also a lot of possessiveness when we are testing for our contracts.


So if you had a dog that ran out and grabbed the object with the intensity you like (you have described it many times in the past), but instead of running around with it and playing keep away (possession), they brought it back to you with intensity....would it fail your test?


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> So if you had a dog that ran out and grabbed the object with the intensity you like (you have described it many times in the past), but instead of running around with it and playing keep away (possession), they brought it back to you with intensity....would it fail your test?


 
When they brought it back, what would they do, drop it and look at you, hold in mouth and punch you with it to get them to tug or play, or simply sit their with it in the mouth the whole time with no interaction.....

I can't speak for Mikes tests, however those things matter to some folks. And I have seen dogs that do not bring it back that have poor possession.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> When they brought it back, what would they do, drop it and look at you, hold in mouth and punch you with it to get them to tug or play, or simply sit their with it in the mouth the whole time with no interaction.....
> 
> I can't speak for Mikes tests, however those things matter to some folks. And I have seen dogs that do not bring it back that have poor possession.


I was thinking more along the lines of hold it in the mouth and punch it to you for tug/play, or come back with it in mouth to you and then try and get you to play keep away....in any case...not dropping it.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Great topic...Glad you're back to dog posts.

Hard to discuss possessiveness in conflict free zone... The trait does cause some conflict 

A super high prey drive dog may re-direct and bite his handler in bite work. Just to get his mouth on something.
A super possessive dog may try to bite its handler when he tries to take the:"whatever" away from him....a much different picture...


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> So if you had a dog that ran out and grabbed the object with the intensity you like (you have described it many times in the past), but instead of running around with it and playing keep away (possession), they brought it back to you with intensity....would it fail your test?


The key is the dog must not drop the object, no matter what. if he brings it back and smashes me in the chest to demand a game of tug that is great, if he runs to the top of the mountain and lays on it and tries to eat it that is just fine also. but if he ever drops it and walks away that is the deal breaker.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> The key is the dog must not drop the object, no matter what. if he brings it back and smashes me in the chest to demand a game of tug that is great, if he runs to the top of the mountain and lays on it and tries to eat it that is just fine also. but if he ever drops it and walks away that is the deal breaker.


Copy that.

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> The key is the dog must not drop the object, no matter what. if he brings it back and smashes me in the chest to demand a game of tug that is great, if he runs to the top of the mountain and lays on it and tries to eat it that is just fine also. but if he ever drops it and walks away that is the deal breaker.


All else being equal, if he drops it only so you'll throw it again, send it to me, I'll find it a good home. If he drops it and walks away, you find him a good home, but not with me. ha ha 

DFrost


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

David Frost said:


> All else being equal, if he drops it only so you'll throw it again, send it to me, I'll find it a good home. If he drops it and walks away, you find him a good home, but not with me. ha ha
> 
> DFrost


LOL, if a dog drops a toy and walks away from it they dont stay here long, I can tell you that.


----------



## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> LOL, if a dog drops a toy and walks away from it they dont stay here long, I can tell you that.


If that's what Revo did, I'm GLAD it happened. lol I actually never even asked what you had tested him for before I drug him home with me. Didnt care either way, was just so thrilled with him it was'nt an issue since he is doing what I want.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Diana Abel said:


> If that's what Revo did, I'm GLAD it happened. lol I actually never even asked what you had tested him for before I drug him home with me. Didnt care either way, was just so thrilled with him it was'nt an issue since he is doing what I want.


I sold him to you when he was just a baby. I did not see anything in him that I did not like at the age that I sold him to you. He was a nice dog, and I am glad you like him.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So how early are you guys testing for possessiveness? Are you testing for certain things at say 6-7 weeks and others later that can make or break whether you keep them?


Terrasita


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So how early are you guys testing for possessiveness? Are you testing for certain things at say 6-7 weeks and others later that can make or break whether you keep them?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Good Question...and is possessiveness being promoted, enhanced as a pup?


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So how early are you guys testing for possessiveness? Are you testing for certain things at say 6-7 weeks and others later that can make or break whether you keep them?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


I dont really "test" for possessiveness in a baby puppy. Other than just watching the way he gathers his toys and guards them from me or his littermates. Those behaviors are very strong clues.


----------



## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I sold him to you when he was just a baby. I did not see anything in him that I did not like at the age that I sold him to you. He was a nice dog, and I am glad you like him.


Oh yeah, I'm really enjoying him!


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I see a very strong connection in our lines with dominance and possessiveness, more so that prey drive and possessiveness. We like dogs with a lot of prey drive and also a lot of possessiveness



Yup I definitely agree!


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> The key is the dog must not drop the object, no matter what. if he brings it back and smashes me in the chest to demand a game of tug that is great, if he runs to the top of the mountain and lays on it and tries to eat it that is just fine also. but if he ever drops it and walks away that is the deal breaker.


Yup number 2 \\/


----------

