# Villain and Vandal herding Instinct test



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

today we tried out some herding with the 2 boys, 

Vandal ( sasha X juice ) did excellent , very calm and a smooth operator

Villain ( flor X Juice ) did amazing , he really ROCKED the joint!!! the trainer LOVED him told me man y times throughout he is " ALOT OF DOG !" she spent alot of time with him and deffianlty was very fond of him , at the end she talked to me about really doing this with him , she was very impressed with him and told me if i didnt want him , she would gladly take him off my hands!!

pics are here, not many of Vandal the photographer was taking them through the fence but i am putting him in the seminar this weekend, so will get more then, he is just easier to handle and learn with , 

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150592825590296.673208.878810295&l=ff26284c62


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> today we tried out some herding with the 2 boys,
> 
> Vandal ( sasha X juice ) did excellent , very calm and a smooth operator
> 
> ...



Looks like everyone had fun!! \\/

Looking forward to hearing more and seeing the photos from the clinic!


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Looks like you guys had a great time.
I surprised to see that they let you leave a line on him in the pen, though. 

What was the rationale behind that, if you don't mind my asking?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>What was the rationale behind that, if you don't mind my asking?

I suppose for control since its a instinct test the dogs are all green , and if we needed to we could catch them easier by stepping on the line, ( i am assuming) incase of accidental eating of sheep , lol the dogs dont understand the rake yet , she let me use it because i was a student last yr at the seminar, and learned a bit about it then,


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

a pic of Villain


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

We put on a HIC/HCT every year, but we've never let dogs in the pen with lines on.
The instructors have always impressed up on us that it was incredibly dangerous to both the dog and the stock, to have a line on, so I was surprised to see it in your pics.

I guess each instructor has a different take on that aspect of it.

I kinda chuckled at the rake. Definitely more visible than what we've used [PVC Pipe].
Especially with puppies, it's probably a lot fairer, in that it creates a more visual deterrent, without actually having to correct the dog.

Compared to a PVC pipe, they can definitely see, and appreciate the wide end of the rake.
Danke had to be personally introduced to Mr. Stick before she could appreciate it's meaning.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> We put on a HIC/HCT every year, but we've never let dogs in the pen with lines on.
> The instructors have always impressed up on us that it was incredibly dangerous to both the dog and the stock, to have a line on, so I was surprised to see it in your pics.
> 
> I guess each instructor has a different take on that aspect of it.


 
Why would it be dangerous to both the dog and the stock? Some dogs I bring in with a line on, some I don't. Depends on the dog. I also don't allow gripping during an instinct test, especially with a Mal or GSD, but thats just me. Last adult dog I allowed in without a line on was a 3yo Rottie, about 4 years ago. The owners, and some of the other trainers present who knew the owners, talked me into believing they had full control on thier "big teddy bear." They bought two of my goats that day.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Mind you, I'm speaking for other people here.

The rationale I was given is that the line can become tangled around the feet of the dog, or the stock. This could lead to broken legs. 

Our testers have always prevented gripping with well-timed corrections from the stick.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Neat! I would look for Vandal's interest and draw to stock to go up the next few sessions. Both my Mals were like that. Fawkes was on it from the start and it just sky rocketed. Lily just thought it was an obedience exercise and ignored them for a good 5 minutes. Now my husband has to keep her from getting too grippy. As for Fawkes...he'll likely be on muzzle for a long time if we get back into herding soon (lessons and gas money are costly!).


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

she didnt reallly allow him to grip , but he did 2 xs and she told me not to worry , he was not trying to hurt, just learning ( or something like that) she did correct some stuff of his for sure, but the biting i was worried about, she said he was ok , 


>>> I would look for Vandal's interest and draw to stock to go up the next few sessions 


I dont know what you mean, i am just learning this stuff


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> she didnt reallly allow him to grip , but he did 2 xs and she told me not to worry , he was not trying to hurt, just learning ( or something like that) she did correct some stuff of his for sure, but the biting i was worried about, she said he was ok ,
> 
> 
> >>> I would look for Vandal's interest and draw to stock to go up the next few sessions
> ...



In other words, he'll be even more excited about the sheep next time.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>>In other words, he'll be even more excited about the sheep next time

Who ? Vandal or Villain ?


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Well, both, but I think Maren was referring to Vandal.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Brian McQuain said:


> Why would it be dangerous to both the dog and the stock? Some dogs I bring in with a line on, some I don't. Depends on the dog. I also don't allow gripping during an instinct test, especially with a Mal or GSD, but thats just me. Last adult dog I allowed in without a line on was a 3yo Rottie, about 4 years ago. The owners, and some of the other trainers present who knew the owners, talked me into believing they had full control on thier "big teddy bear." They bought two of my goats that day.


Yes I will also use a line depending on the dog. I agree with the gripping also, something to be discouraged. A good sheep dog should be able to cotrol sheep without gripping. I strongly discourage any gripping in my sheep dogs and will correct them. Dogs need to be able to apply the right amount of force for the situation which in most cases doesnt include rough tactics. Dogs can very quickly do major damage to sheep, with just one bite as I discovered when my ACD gripped too hard once.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, its an instinct test. No fair looking for a trained dog. Look at the sheep faciing off the dog. Look at the dog's eyes. They had a line. Doesn't appear they were really using it. As the dogs feel more confident, the grip tends to fade. It'll take a few sessions before you see the real dog in terms of drive and his intent. Can't see the dog's sense of group in the pics. They are definitely turned on so that's step 1---engagement/instinct. The entire purpose of the rake is that they can see it. However, with strong dogs, it and a stock stick can be useful. Most people who disagree with long lines are the ones who aren't any good at using them. The line can be used to effectively get the dog around his sheep and fetching. They can get wrapped so you have to remain aware of them. It all depends on the situation and set up.

Terrasita


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

The only time I have seen a long line do any damage was to me...and it was because I wasn't paying attention and got wrapped up and flat a**ed


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, its an instinct test. No fair looking for a trained dog. Look at the sheep faciing off the dog. Look at the dog's eyes. They had a line. Doesn't appear they were really using it. As the dogs feel more confident, the grip tends to fade. It'll take a few sessions before you see the real dog in terms of drive and his intent. Can't see the dog's sense of group in the pics. They are definitely turned on so that's step 1---engagement/instinct. The entire purpose of the rake is that they can see it. However, with strong dogs, it and a stock stick can be useful. Most people who disagree with long lines are the ones who aren't any good at using them. The line can be used to effectively get the dog around his sheep and fetching. They can get wrapped so you have to remain aware of them. It all depends on the situation and set up.
> 
> Terrasita


I meant useless as far as the rake and stick are concerned. For me that's up to the handler to train.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Yes I am not really used to GSD and Mals and the way they work so it could be entirely different. 

With Border C and kelpies for the first time I generally put them in a small paddock and watch what they do without interfering. I like to see them cover their sheep but keep out of them. Break out to head and keep them covered without rushing in. I like to see them show some strength and force when moving.

Then the training begins.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes I am not really used to GSD and Mals and the way they work so it could be entirely different.
> 
> With Border C and kelpies for the first time I generally put them in a small paddock and watch what they do without interfering. I like to see them cover their sheep but keep out of them. Break out to head and keep them covered without rushing in. I like to see them show some strength and force when moving.
> 
> Then the training begins.


Sara,

With the Kelpie and BC you have the traits of eye and moving on the outside bubble of the pressure---usually. Other breeds come into pressure and use their body. Later w/ training exposure and work, you will see some degree of eye and ability to control and read the pressure out in the pasture---at least with GSDs. My first GSD went out and gathered them and fetched them in an instinct test. Bob's dog Thunder was another for gathering and keeping them to the handler. I tested a 6 month old DDR male puppy that had tons of eye and gathered and fetched the stock. Most livestock are more accustomed to Kelpie/BC style and would run for their lives if you turned a GSD loose in a paddock. GSDs were bred for their genetic grip and ability to control 600--1000 head. That's a whole lot of presence and power for 3-5 flighty sheep in a little bitty pen. We don't see alot of Mals here and the ones I've seen were more load and explode once they hit the pressure bubble. I recently worked one and will start training on her. She's grown up around cattle. She had a strong sense of gather and rather was handler soft. She's not been bred on fight/prey from what I know of the pedigree. 


Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara,
> 
> With the Kelpie and BC you have the traits of eye and moving on the outside bubble of the pressure---usually. Other breeds come into pressure and use their body. Later w/ training exposure and work, you will see some degree of eye and ability to control and read the pressure out in the pasture---at least with GSDs. My first GSD went out and gathered them and fetched them in an instinct test. Bob's dog Thunder was another for gathering and keeping them to the handler. I tested a 6 month old DDR male puppy that had tons of eye and gathered and fetched the stock. Most livestock are more accustomed to Kelpie/BC style and would run for their lives if you turned a GSD loose in a paddock. GSDs were bred for their genetic grip and ability to control 600--1000 head. That's a whole lot of presence and power for 3-5 flighty sheep in a little bitty pen. We don't see alot of Mals here and the ones I've seen were more load and explode once they hit the pressure bubble. I recently worked one and will start training on her. She's grown up around cattle. She had a strong sense of gather and rather was handler soft. She's not been bred on fight/prey from what I know of the pedigree.
> 
> ...


Yes I have never seen a GSD work sheep!. Certainly our dogs will work very large numbers (thousands) of sheep in paddocks and yards very effieciently and still be able to deal with a very small number and that instinct to stay outside the bubble and still have a very strong presence is very much an inherited trait in the purpose bred BC and kelpie.

I think I might stick to the BC and Kelpie LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes I have never seen a GSD work sheep!. Certainly our dogs will work very large numbers (thousands) of sheep in paddocks and yards very effieciently and still be able to deal with a very small number and that instinct to stay outside the bubble and still have a very strong presence is very much an inherited trait in the purpose bred BC and kelpie.
> 
> I think I might stick to the BC and Kelpie LOL


 
Well, needless to say, to eaches own. I'm biased toward the GSD---absolute poetry in motion on livestock, almost human like intelligence and so bonded, I think it and they do it. I've seen young Kelpies and BC both australian working imports and Scottish imports that started out using just as much body and had no idea where that bubble was. Then maturity into certain traits and training and wallah. The GSD is muli- not single purpose. With my trained dogs, I've walked off and left them in the pen with stock and know no harm will come to them. They guard what's mine. GSDs have the judgment to know the difference between the lambs and ewes. Even more important, they guard ME. I don't ever have to worry about being run over or take a hit. They will always move in and make sure I'm not harmed. Have seen this with may corgi and bouv as well. Very handy. I don't expect them waddling out of the womb able to handle the job with the finesse of a seasoned dog and I'm quite patient to see them through the development phases. Now if I can EVER find my next one, I'd be a happy camper.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I have always liked GSDS absolutely beautiful dogs.

I guess where I live the working kelpie is probably the most suitable sheepdog. Intense heat, dry rough ground and the ability to back sheep all day in the yards day after day when a mob of 20,000 is coming through.

Of course ACDS are my favourite dogs but in reality for what we need kelpies are probably the pick folowed by BCs. They need to come out of the womb with instincts in place round here LOL.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Kelpies are right up there with border collies for me as well (for herding). A blast to work with. I just can't agree with you, Terrasita, about gripping, but if that seems to work for you, do it up. It is just an instinct test, but the dog still needs to learn to respect your stock from day one. I see WAY too many Mals and GSDs grip and harass the stock during a trial and receive that prompt "thank you!" immediately after. I hate watching all the spectators and competitors cringe every time they see a Mal come out. I'll be changing that around here soon though...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara,

How are the station dogs developed from puppyhood?


Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Brian McQuain said:


> Kelpies are right up there with border collies for me as well (for herding). A blast to work with. I just can't agree with you, Terrasita, about gripping, but if that seems to work for you, do it up. It is just an instinct test, but the dog still needs to learn to respect your stock from day one. I see WAY too many Mals and GSDs grip and harass the stock during a trial and receive that prompt "thank you!" immediately after. I hate watching all the spectators and competitors cringe every time they see a Mal come out. I'll be changing that around here soon though...


 
Unfortunately, inexperienced dogs grip. Its a herding fact of life. Its not desired but you don't lose your mind over it either. Stock also need to learn to respect a dog. Sorry, I've been in the kill the dog situations and the handler too for that matter--once in a ranch trial. How many ranch people have said---don't take the grip out of the dog. I can't speak to Mals--don't see enough of them. I've seen just as much gripping behavior with Kelpies and BCs. With experience and work comes judgment. Ideally, you set it up so that the grips can't occur. This is the trainer's/tester's job. Having done a schutzhund club without use of a stock stick or rake, it can be done and without grips or injury to stock. First you have to have the right stock and know what stock will put the dog in fight/grip mode and don't use those. I can use a long line with back up for two things: 1) doggie won't recall; 2) w/ back up, prevent grips and injury. Kelpies and BCs have to be developed for the intended work just like any other dog/breed and come with their own set of nuances. Its what you need for your lifestyle, personality and particular herding work that will dictate which you choose. You can take all of 30 seconds and never turn the dog loose to tell whether he has instinct. You don't have a tester in these pictures that is keeping up with the dog and keeping him around the stock.

You don't teach respect for livestock in an instinct test. The tester doesn't have any working relationship with the dog. The handler is clueless and can't direct the dog. You see whether he has instinct and get him outta there. You can tell engagement, heading, sense of group without even turning him loose. Some dogs you may decide not to turn loose. Others you will get a read on that you can. Go after a certain type of dog in an instinct test and you will get bit. Seen that too.
Be fair to the dog and set it up to keep him right and so he won't get himself into trouble. Select the right livestock that won't stress with the situation and will honor the dog and do their damndest to orient and stay grouped the handler. You also need the right geographic area. There are tons of things you can do with a dog to build respect for the stock or show him other control tools besides his teeth, other than whacking him with a stick. It takes time but its doable. 


The second I saw the pics, I thought oh great, they'll be labeled wolves. 

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara,
> 
> How are the station dogs developed from puppyhood?
> 
> ...


Some farmers take the trouble to train them, many pay good money for started dogs, some give minimal training, some just start working them and will give them some leeway but they had better shape up fast. Many already have experienced dogs that the pups learn from

Experienced stockmen will put their young dogs in a small paddock as I described and closely observe them. If they inherently show what the stockman is looking for they will persevere. Hence my comment about coming out of the womb with temperament and instincts in place. If the dog looks like trouble they are gone. Dogs that dont shape up quickly are gone. Chasing, gripping and that sort of thing is not tolerated even in the initial test.

Experienced stockmen know exactly what they are looking for and dont bother with anything else. They dont want to teach the dog what it should have inherited, they just want to put the commands in place. They will look very closely at the lines of dogs and will pay good money for the lines they are looking for. Big money changes hands at the working dog auctions for the top proven lines.

If a farmer has sheepdogs and he uses his bike in preference you know the dog isnt much good and they may just use them to push sheep around in the yards. A lot of the traditional work done by dogs is being replaced by machines, most station cattle are now mustered by a fleet of choppers.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Unfortunately, inexperienced dogs grip. Its a herding fact of life. Its not desired but you don't lose your mind over it either. Stock also need to learn to respect a dog. Sorry, I've been in the kill the dog situations and the handler too for that matter--once in a ranch trial. How many ranch people have said---don't take the grip out of the dog. I can't speak to Mals--don't see enough of them. I've seen just as much gripping behavior with Kelpies and BCs. With experience and work comes judgment. Ideally, you set it up so that the grips can't occur. This is the trainer's/tester's job. Having done a schutzhund club without use of a stock stick or rake, it can be done and without grips or injury to stock. First you have to have the right stock and know what stock will put the dog in fight/grip mode and don't use those. I can use a long line with back up for two things: 1) doggie won't recall; 2) w/ back up, prevent grips and injury. Kelpies and BCs have to be developed for the intended work just like any other dog/breed and come with their own set of nuances. Its what you need for your lifestyle, personality and particular herding work that will dictate which you choose. You can take all of 30 seconds and never turn the dog loose to tell whether he has instinct. You don't have a tester in these pictures that is keeping up with the dog and keeping him around the stock.
> 
> You don't teach respect for livestock in an instinct test. The tester doesn't have any working relationship with the dog. The handler is clueless and can't direct the dog. You see whether he has instinct and get him outta there. You can tell engagement, heading, sense of group without even turning him loose. Some dogs you may decide not to turn loose. Others you will get a read on that you can. Go after a certain type of dog in an instinct test and you will get bit. Seen that too.
> Be fair to the dog and set it up to keep him right and so he won't get himself into trouble. Select the right livestock that won't stress with the situation and will honor the dog and do their damndest to orient and stay grouped the handler. You also need the right geographic area. There are tons of things you can do with a dog to build respect for the stock or show him other control tools besides his teeth, other than whacking him with a stick. It takes time but its doable.
> ...


I agree with all that. I just typed out a book, but I’ll just say I agree.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Just thinking about the gripping thing and I am only talking about Borders and kelpies. My young BC at 6 months got in with my training flock in a 20 acre paddock where I had them. It was his first time and although he was not supposed to be in there I observed him. He was pretty full on but he kept them together and was moving them around the paddock, probably with a bit too much enthusiasm but he he never once gripped or touched them but I could see he was in command of them and he was working them, when I arrived on the scene he bought them to me. Shortly after a flock of 200 sheep got in my house paddock and he had them out the gate and into the correct paddock - all I did was walk to the gate and open it. He kept everyone together without touching anyone and the sheep were not inclined to mess with him.

In contrast my timid kelpie (now agility dog) who was given to me because her stockman owner considered her unsuitable at his first assessment - everytime one of them broke away she flew in with a grip and ended up chasing them around the paddock, darting in and gripping all the time, it was a shamozzle. I did persevere to a certain extent with her but she is never going to be the dog my BC will be once I have learned to command his instincts, although a good stockman could do it a lot faster and better than me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Some farmers take the trouble to train them, many pay good money for started dogs, some give minimal training, some just start working them and will give them some leeway but they had better shape up fast. Many already have experienced dogs that the pups learn from
> 
> Experienced stockmen will put their young dogs in a small paddock as I described and closely observe them. If they inherently show what the stockman is looking for they will persevere. Hence my comment about coming out of the womb with temperament and instincts in place. If the dog looks like trouble they are gone. Dogs that dont shape up quickly are gone. Chasing, gripping and that sort of thing is not tolerated even in the initial test.
> 
> ...


Well they don't walk out of the womb working the station. I instinct test on stock at 49 days if I whelp the litter. I'm looking for heading, sense of group, strong attraction, and I like the ones I have to catch because they don't want to quit--absolute and continued engagement. Like anyone else they are looking at base traits that they will develop for the work. They will see work daily. You have different breeds bred on different traits for different types of work. Old school German sheep herders test the grip first. For the protection folks, if it wasn't full firm and in the right place, it was a cull. They see the grip as necessary to the work. The GSD was bred to grip livestock in certain situations as a means of control. Why punish it for what it was bred to do? My bouv has a load and explode issue with prey drive on flight sheep. But she wasn't bred for sheep flighty sheep work. See her on cattle and you understand her and she's a natural. Have a cow come after you and you thank god for those nerves of steel, sense of guard and fight drive.

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well they don't walk out of the womb working the station. I instinct test on stock at 49 days if I whelp the litter. I'm looking for heading, sense of group, strong attraction, and I like the ones I have to catch because they don't want to quit--absolute and continued engagement. Like anyone else they are looking at base traits that they will develop for the work. They will see work daily. You have different breeds bred on different traits for different types of work. Old school German sheep herders test the grip first. For the protection folks, if it wasn't full firm and in the right place, it was a cull. They see the grip as necessary to the work. The GSD was bred to grip livestock in certain situations as a means of control. Why punish it for what it was bred to do? My bouv has a load and explode issue with prey drive on flight sheep. But she wasn't bred for sheep flighty sheep work. See her on cattle and you understand her and she's a natural. Have a cow come after you and you thank god for those nerves of steel, sense of guard and fight drive.
> 
> Terrasita


No they dont but a good stockman knows what they want from a BC or kelpie that they know will train up fast.

I agree it will vary for the different breeds. I would never work my ACDS on sheep - why bother. But a good ACD on rangeland cattle is a very handy animal. They have often been known to save their owners bacon in a stampede. An ACD will die protecting you and they most definitely have nerves of steel and are physically super tough. Some Koolies will do the same on cattle but a working ACD - mans best friend in a sticky situation.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm looking for heading, sense of group, strong attraction, and I like the ones I have to catch because they don't want to quit--absolute and continued engagement. Like anyone else they are looking at base traits that they will develop for the work. Terrasita


The concept of an instinct test is interesting and will obviously vary for different breeds. 

One of our best stockmen on BC and Kelpie instict test or rather initial evaluation -

Dont influence the pup with plastic rakes, just sit and observe, if you are worried about what is going to happen, dont bother - start looking for a better pup. No splitting sheep up, biting, grabbing, hanging on or showing any fear of the sheep, or turn tailing. Any of these means the pup is not high quality.

Then he lists the things he looks for which I wont go in to here.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

just on a little note, he only tried to bite 2 Xs in 20 min ,9 JUST got them both on pics , the tester did not mind at all and really liked him , told me if i didnt want him , she would gladly take him off my hands , I have not heard her say that to any other of the people, so he must have been doing something right ,


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> just on a little note, he only tried to bite 2 Xs in 20 min ,9 JUST got them both on pics , the tester did not mind at all and really liked him , told me if i didnt want him , she would gladly take him off my hands , I have not heard her say that to any other of the people, so he must have been doing something right ,


Yes it will differ for the breeds. I really have no right to comment on your breed all I know is what I consider when looking at young dogs for the breeds I work with which can often give an insight into the dog they are likely to become.

It would be nice see other pics of their work, not so much the bitey ones LOL ( but again that is my thoughts on sheep work - no biting!)


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

First thing my Corso did was bee line it for the closest sheep and grabbed it by the back. He was on a line which I thought was a joke because the clasp on it was big enough to maybe hold on to a 40lb dog before breaking. I had his ecollar on for back up and good thing is he listens to me really well and let go each time I yelled at him. I was way more freaked out about this then the trainer. He grabbed the sheep maybe 3 or 4 times and I screamed so loud at him each time, by the end of the test my voice was gone and it was gone for the rest of the day. 

She basically told me, get him off when he bites, but don't worry about it, he's just frustrated and doesn't know what to do, let him figure it out. Sure enough, within minutes you could see him start relaxing and he was trotting keeping an even distance behind the sheep keeping them together. The second one broke off he would launch after it and outmanoeuvre it until it was back with the group, then he just went back to the easy trot and kept them going in a circle around us. It was one of the coolest thing to see from a dog that has never seen sheep in his life. 

The evaluator commented that he had a lot of power and would probably work better with cattle once he had some experience, but we were welcomed to come back to work on the sheep. 

This is the only pic I got but I love how the long line shows what their path was


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

todays work vandal did well , i was happy with him , i am learning alot too , 










then we had to wait along time while others went,


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Great photos! Thanks for sharing them!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Nice dogs! interesting to see other breeds herding. I also didnt know that the Corso is a herding dog, in fact I dont know much about them at all.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nice lap dog Tammy

Glad the herding was fun.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Absolutely gorgeous work!!!!! This is what we like to see. He looks fabulous and I can see why the tester was hoping Vandal was on the adoption block.


Terrasita


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Absolutely gorgeous work!!!!! This is what we like to see. He looks fabulous and I can see why the tester was hoping Vandal was on the adoption block.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


It was "Villan", the crazy pup the tester wanted LOL. "Vandal", the one in the latest pictures, is a level headed dude that is over a year old now.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> It was "Villan", the crazy pup the tester wanted LOL. "Vandal", the one in the latest pictures, is a level headed dude that is over a year old now.


 Ohhhh, really. I could pick out Vandal ones in the Facebook pics. I like his his level head and so do the sheep. Right now I can only tell them apart from demeanor I think. That six and 12 o'clock picture above with him in a really nice balanced working sidegait is just picture perfect. 

T


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> she didnt reallly allow him to grip , but he did 2 xs and she told me not to worry , he was not trying to hurt, just learning ( or something like that) she did correct some stuff of his for sure, but the biting i was worried about, she said he was ok ,


I wouldn't stress too much over the gripping. My Beauceron went through a period, when she first started, when she liked to nip or grip. As her confidence to control the stock grew, she gripped less and less.

I was always reminded, that if she wanted to take down a sheep she could have easily done it...but she never wanted to do that, and never has ever tried to maul a sheep.

My advice would be to listen to your trainer, you guys are the ones there and seeing the "action" in person. Whatever you do, don't get too focused on that grip thing, you can make it a self full filling prophecy if you stress over it too much.

Good luck to you and have fun!!

Kellie

ps...herding people don't generally like those cool mouth full of teeth photos like bite work people do


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