# Retrieve



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Looks simple but not easy to train, biting a decoy is their highest drive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCnZhlKQdbI


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Holy shit, he grabbed it by the pry end. And that's exercise pretty impressive and creative!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The only thing I can think of is WOW and WTF!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Look, it's one of them thar metal retrieving dogs. 

I trained one Mal to retrieve metal but not under distraction like that. Pretty cool.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Khoi I wonder who came up with that idea to begin with? Pretty clever.

Howard what was your end game in training the dog to retrieve metal?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Nicole, for PSA 3, all of the obedience and bite work are surprize scenario (within guideline) and so we just make up stuff as we train to prepare the dogs for anything that could throw at them during the trial.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Khoi I wonder who came up with that idea to begin with? Pretty clever.
> 
> Howard what was your end game in training the dog to retrieve metal?


 I had a 7 month old Mal I rescued then trained to pass our state LEO cert. I put him up for sale and a very prominent trainer/ Sheriff from New Mexico was interested. He wanted to know if the dog would retrieve metal. At the time it was all the rage for some reason so I did it. He bought the dog and it had a good career for 4 years until the handler got seriously injured and retired on a medical.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm assuming the vid was to show how hard it is to train a dog to retrieve rather than bite the decoy. i would have been just as impressed if the dog had retrieved a blast hose or a set of car keys out of the box

i have read here many times how tennis balls are bad retrieve items because they wear teeth

i don't even like to allow dogs to retrieve and chew on sticks

i've dealt with chipped teeth that cost a bundle to cap

the first time i saw dogs retrieving (copper?) pipes was in Mike Suttle vids. i think the reason was to see if the dog had enough drive to grab and hold a metal item versus something softer. i didn't get that analogy then and still don't

for me the wow factor shouldn't trump the stupid factor so dogs retrieving tire irons is not as cool for me as it seems to be for others

but i'll bet if some newbie pet owner came on hear posting a vid of a tire iron retrieve they'd get hammered for choosing that object and the safety factor would be mentioned 

that's my take....ymmv


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

HERE.....not "hear"


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Not trying to impress by retrieving tire iron, the idea was to retrieve under distractions of decoys that the dog wants to bite really bad and we need something that sinks underwater to make it harder to retrieve so we just have a tire iron in the car.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> the first time i saw dogs retrieving (copper?) pipes was in Mike Suttle vids. i think the reason was to see if the dog had enough drive to grab and hold a metal item versus something softer. i didn't get that analogy then and still don't
> 
> for me the wow factor shouldn't trump the stupid factor so dogs retrieving tire irons is not as cool for me as it seems to be for others
> 
> ...


You think way too highly of yourself rick. It should't surprise me anymore when you come across almost deliberately obtuse, but admittedly it does. :roll:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Retrieving copper is supposed to be very distasteful in a dogs mouth. 

No matter what was retrieved Kohi's video impressed the hell outa me!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

In a word it's about possession. The real question is how much or to what extent did that turn out to be a good predictor or element in selection. I think Howard's comment is telling.

Obviously any dog can be trained to do that, it was more about a subset of behaviors that occur within that exercise that were of greater interest at the time. 

Howard, I assume then by what you said that metal has fallen out of fashion?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

You can never trust video of dogs that retrieve copper, I have pups that naturally retrieve copper and have no problem with it in their mouth, then I have pups that retrieve anything until they get to copper and want nothing to do with it, but with a little drive building for the copper tube, that same pup would bite the crap out of the copper tube and search for it like he was possessed. So you really don't know if that dog is natural or trained, even at 8 weeks old.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good point!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Khoi.....that's EXACTLY what i thought was being demonstrated. i didn't need an explanation 
- my suggestion to raise the bar is have the dog go thru the decoys next time to get to the retrieve item

by the way- that was the first time the dog saw a tire iron ?
if so, good dog 

and why i said car keys would have been just as impressive. i'm SURE they were available too and would sink just as fast as a tire iron //rotflmao//

FACT....the comments made so far have been more focused on the tire iron than the retrieve under distractions 

and as usual, Nicole comments on my attitude rather than what i post 
some things never change 

tabasco on a kong would demonstrate it too but look WAY less cool
and safer for teeth.....where was it studied that copper tastes bad to dogs ??

ah never mind...i knew that's how my post would be received and my points would be ignored


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> You can never trust video of dogs that retrieve copper, I have pups that naturally retrieve copper and have no problem with it in their mouth, then I have pups that retrieve anything until they get to copper and want nothing to do with it, but with a little drive building for the copper tube, that same pup would bite the crap out of the copper tube and search for it like he was possessed. So you really don't know if that dog is natural or trained, even at 8 weeks old.


Exactly...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> and as usual, Nicole comments on my attitude rather than what i post
> some things never change


Kind of like shit on a shoe huh rick? Well, what can I say? I was weaned early.

If you need it explained to you, my prior response that is, then you wouldn't understand anyway. I'm sure you know how that saying goes. :-\" But let me try this another way.

For Gods sake man, wtf do you think I was talking about when I said I thought the exercise was creative and impressive? The tire iron??? Really? You honestly cannot be that stupid, which is precisely why I said you think too highly of yourself. So which is it? Both?

I figure if you are going to start your tantrum, you'll need adequate fuel to make it look like it's at least legitimate. Scream away...


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Ok no need to be unfriendly because of my video, here is a safer retrieve video for Rick, I thought this one is just as hard, our primary target of our dogs to bite is the bicep, so we sent the dog to bite a decoy on the bicep, recall put a plastic bottle in his arm pit for the dog to retrieve, don't mind me laughing at the end there I just won my bet. https://vimeo.com/176092505


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

VERY nice, and in my opinion harder since you are more closely tempting the dog to bite by placing the retrieve item where the dog wants to grip. which is what i consider proofing...setting the dog up to fail
- my guess is that happened during the training process
- if the dog retrieved the first time that was in the arm, even better dog than most

for what it's worth, i don't care how safe or unsafe the items are. not my dog 
just stated why i didn't care for tossing a tire iron and gave reasons and see no reason why that would get anyone riled up...except some people

just to be perfectly clear.....
i like watching your vids as much as anyone Khoi, so don't feel like i'm trying to nit pick them apart and i'm sure you agree that a tire iron is not a safe item to teach any dog to grip.
if they use tire irons in competition for retrieve items, it would lower my respect for the sport and i happen to have a lot of respect for PSA


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

In my case the metal retrieve was trained through a series of steps. Haven't heard much about the desire to retrieve metal lately. The retrieve under distraction is the most impressive to me, especially the temptation to bite the man instead of grabbing the milk jug. Nice job even though I would never do that for a PSD. We have enough issues sometimes with the dog grabbing only clothing on real bites on the street. Yet another glaring difference between sport and street dogs. No knocking it, just pointing it out. I have, and will continue to use what I can from sport dog training/trainers if it's applicable to the street.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes Rick that was the first time doing that for that dog, that is why we had a bet on it, just having fun training and yes Howard I wouldn't teach that either if I have a PSD.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> Ok no need to be unfriendly because of my video.


Certainly. It was because of rick, not your video. He gets a little spun sometimes so I gave him a slight correction hoping it might help him realize what the real interest was in the video. As I said it had nothing to do with the tire iron. Anybody that's worked with dogs knows it was just an article of choice to retrieve. Doing it under distraction was clearly the focus of the exercise and what those that commented on were referring to. 

Anyone who looked at that video could see the points rick made. There was no reason to point that out to you. You're an intelligent man and a well respected one at that. Stating the obvious borders on a careless and indirect insult to your common sense.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

LOL was that a prong or electric correction?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

VERY cool second video!


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

My last partner K-9 Grizzly retrieved evidence instead of lying down, sitting or standing. He had no motivation to do any of those and would easily lose interest. So much to the disdain of my superiors The DA and on 2 occasions for the FBI he retrieved.

I sent him in the back yard of an apartment complex where asuspect had been captured during a knifing of another individual. The guy beaten and stabbed was already transported. The perp would not talk. I am thinking small knife or razor. 

About 2 minutes into the search of trash and uncut grass, Grizzly shows an awesome head change. I stand back and observe then begin giving him verbal encouragement. All of a sudden he puts his head down reaches in and picks up a machete. I have a major heart attack and scream for him to out and place it back on the ground. This time he picks it back up by the handle, prances back to me and places it by my feet as trained, Immediately the investigators take it into custody which proved to be the weapon.

All I could think about was busted teeth, cut tongue or gumbs, so I ran code 3 to the vet. After the vet performed a quick check and found no injuries, I breathed a sigh of relief. Never trained him on metal that weight, he just did it on his own. 

Once again I heard it from the desk jockeys. Oh well, retired now they know what they can do!! lol


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Yep, my first dog was taught to retrieve articles. One night he comes out of the high grass with a loaded Glock. Anyone who knows guns knows how easy it is to discharge a Glock. Cops were running for cover when they saw that. Since then all dogs are trained to down on an article. Much safer.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

" Cops were running for cover when they saw that."
LOL that reminds me of this video I saw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhxqIITtTtU


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

LOL, that's funny. I remember seeing that video before and thinking the same of Howard's comment.

Thanks Howard! You just gave me one more thing I need to make sure I never have in my hand around that little bitch! As it is the minute with mastiff hears gunshots or a rifle she's damned near falling down the stairs to get out and on the ground. 

Course, you gotta remember she's old now and can't (go) hunt but a few weeks ago I had a bear try to get into the cabin and she had it in her mind that she was going to be first to get to him. Right now she's got her eyes fixed on a drone outside that she wants to get after. 

Phil, I just smiled at your story. I enjoyed reading it. I am sure there's more than just a few of us that have had those Fred Sampson moments with our dogs.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Retrieving metal was always part of the KNPV test. I had a KNPV dog that would search a forty foot square for a copper penny, he found it and brought it back to me bent. He didn't mind the taste of copper.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When reading about retrieving evidence such as a gun or knife, in addition to the gun going off I've always thought about the chances of the dog destroying evidence with slobber or just chomping on it. 

Khoi, I also have seen that video before and laugh just as hard every time. Thanks! :grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Retrieving metal was always part of the KNPV test.


I did not realize that. Thanks for adding that in.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I've seen videos of young KNPV prospects taught to pick up small metal discs. Forgot about that. We also will toss a penny into an open field for evidence searches but no retrieval. Mainly it is done to hone the senses. It never ceases to amaze me that they can find it fairly easily.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob, I have often thought the same thing about retrieving evidence. Howard, maybe you can add input on this but is this common practice and if so, is that a valid concern? 

I don't know if Robin will come back to this thread but if he does I'd be interested in know if the role of the metal retrieve had a specific purpose such as evidence or if there was a different, possibly less obvious reason for it?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

In most progressive departments, the evidence retrieve by K9 has gone the way of the aggressive alert for drug sniffs. All passive alert. You'd think dog slobber would taint DNA but in fact the tests can determine whether it's a human, or animal sample even though they are mixed. They can do the same when ruling out owner DNA when said owner is a victim of a crime and suspect DNA is left at the scene and both people have touched or handled an item. We regularly take owner DNA samples at crime scenes to rule out the owner when the DNA sample is sent to the lab.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Just recently I was asked to have my dogs look for a gun stripped down. So I was imprinting my girl on my guns, unloaded, clips out, and she gave her trained indication and picks up my 9mil.. Twice! I was extremely glad I had triple checked and made sure they were unloaded.. To her credit she picked up by handle, but still...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

It's all fun and games until your dog shoots you.#-o


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> It's all fun and games until your dog shoots you.#-o



:lol: :lol: and thanks for making the slobber issue clear.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

mwd's are not trained to retrieve evidence. no idea about psd's but see no common sense reason to allow evidence to be retrieved rather than indicated. obvious potential dangers irregardless of the slobber factor

KNPV was established to allow civilians to prep a K9 for LE. seen quite a few vids of keys being retrieved, but years ago and maybe old school since the introduction of "smart keys" ? seen retrieves of other non metallic items too; didn't know it had to be metal. i was under the impression most owners sell the dog to LE after getting the basic title rather than completing the whole KNPV program
- ask the Dutch police if their K9's are trained to retrieve evidence ?

KNPV is a diff training regimen and was/is set up to SPECIFICALLY prep dogs for LE
i think KNPV dogs still chase bicycles with covered wheels and learn object guarding
nice to have a KNPV trainer here again. still miss Alice ... sometimes //lol//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

as a side note.....if the dogs has a solid out and happened to retrieve a gun/knife/machete/big bag of smack or anything else....why wouldn't the dog be given an out to end the problem in a heartbeat ?
- a weapon might discharge when dropped ?
- because only a tactical out is trained ? //lol//

no need to respond ... my mind often oversimplifies problems


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

At the trial, I believe they retrieve shell casing with their front teeth, probably why they want their dogs to retrieve metal.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My last GSD would easily retrieve my car keys but that was just for fun.

I had lost them in a field once and sent him to "find" and he did the required bark alert and stood at the keys.

I didn't give him a "Bring" command because I didn't want to contaminate the "find" command.


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