# To spay or not?



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

It's time to spay my Dutchie female. 

She is 2 1/2, a nice dog, but not exceptional, titled to a BH. Hips are excellent. I have no intentions of breeding her for a few reasons - no studs, no market for pups, no desire to breed. I don't know if I can deal with another heat cycle. My male is neutered, but very interested and normally neither dog is crated.

I'm not sure why I'm waffling on this. Is there any good reason not to spay her? (aside from the major surgery and expense issue?)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Leslie, it sound like you already know the answer. Serious breeding is not having a litter of pups. If you can't get into it seriously, don't start. I have 3 pups born so far this morning. This is the 12th gen. and one I have been trying to get for a # of years. They are all strong and healthy so far. I am leaving for the valley in a few and will be back tomorrow to see how it went. I will keep my fingers crossed but will never intervene on the part of the pups nor the mom. If we can't produce strong healthy pups first and foremost, we shouldn't be producing pups at all.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> ... I have no intentions of breeding her ... I don't know if I can deal with another heat cycle. .... Is there any good reason not to spay her? (aside from the major surgery and expense issue?)





The health pros and cons about spaying are discussed pretty well here:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

Scroll to _"For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds." 
_

Then it outlines the various potential benefits and problems.


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

There's not really a right/wrong answer to this. The major reason I would not want to spay a bitch is spay incontinence which if you win that lottery can create a lifetime of dribblebutt as opposed to dealing with a bitch in heat a max of 2 times a year.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

leslie cassian said:


> It's time to spay my Dutchie female.
> 
> She is 2 1/2, a nice dog, but not exceptional, titled to a BH. Hips are excellent. I have no intentions of breeding her for a few reasons - no studs, no market for pups, no desire to breed. I don't know if I can deal with another heat cycle. My male is neutered, but very interested and normally neither dog is crated.
> 
> I'm not sure why I'm waffling on this. Is there any good reason not to spay her? (aside from the major surgery and expense issue?)


Do you consider a full hysterectomy a viable form of birth control for yourself?
Why or why not?

Why or why not?


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

> On the positive side, spaying female dogs
> 
> 
> if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
> ...


The OPs dog is already 2.5 years old, so the risk of mammary tumors won't be affected, according to the article.
The remaining health "benefits" are minor, and the risks in your scenario, according to the article [and every other objective study I've read] outweigh then by FAR.

In the meantime, you're depriving a dog of the hormones its body is intended to have.
We don't use hysterectomies as a form of human birth control for a very good reason:
*Artificially inducing menopause isn't healthy.*

And in an animal that naturally NEVER experiences menopause... its downright insane.
Add to that the fact that we don't give spayed bitches hormones to replace what we've robbed their bodies of.

*The only reason to spay this bitch is if you believe that you are incapable of preventing an unwanted breeding, *in which case, please have her, and every other bitch you ever own, spayed.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm thinking that, like most topics, this one is going to be influenced by individual worldview/experiences.

Someone who has lost a dog to pyometra, for example, isn't going to see that prevention as a minor benefit.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm thinking that, like most topics, this one is going to be influenced by individual worldview/experiences.
> 
> Someone who has lost a dog to pyometra, for example, isn't going to see that prevention as a minor benefit.


Friends recently lost their young GSD bitch to pyometria. Something to consider.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> Friends recently lost their young GSD bitch to pyometria. Something to consider.


And then you'd also want to consider that while pyometra "would affect about 23% of intact female dogs," it "kills about 1% of intact female dogs."

23% is very different from 1%.

You might want to read about how pyometra can be minimized, period, in intact bitches. Maybe what breeds are most vulnerable, etc.


ETA
I just found, for example, that the most vulnerable breeds are Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, Collies, and Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I found this interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZRD563bMWs&feature=share


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I found this interesting.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZRD563bMWs&feature=share


So essentially what he is saying that the European dogs vs NA live longer and healthier lives because of far lower rates of spay/neutering?

Leslie if it helps, at this point I plan on keeping my girl intact even though I have no plans of breeding her as well. I fall into the line of thinking of what Aaron mentioned. Why would desexing be healthy for dogs when it's recognized as very unhealthy for people? I think you need to look through a lot of the spay/neuter propaganda and stats pumped out by rescues and shelters from a purely population control perspective and not necessarily with health benefits in mind.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm pretty much at this point as well. My female is 3.5, she's gotta be due for a heat cycle soon. I start exams in a couple weeks, so I figure she'll come in about 2-3 days before I start. We'll see how the new pup reacts to her.

I'm not really that worried about a woopsie litter (although I secretly wouldn't mind... but I won't be stupid and ensure it happens)... but I'm more concerned about the pros and cons like others have mentioned.

I think I prefer her NOT to be spayed. I don't mind the effects of the heat cycle, but she really doesn't like the diaper I make her wear


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I would go with not spaying.. I had a rescue APBT that was spayed and she had incontinence later in life which made things rough for a house dog, who had to go from always sleeping on my bed to being crated.

I leave all my dogs/bitches intact personally.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And then you'd also want to consider that while pyometra "would affect about 23% of intact female dogs," it "kills about 1% of intact female dogs."
> 
> 23% is very different from 1%.
> 
> ...


It's also important to note that spaying doesn't eliminate the risk of pyometra, and in fact, the rate of pyometra in spayed bitches is estimated to be 35%. *Note: See post # 21*
Pyometra is often overlooked in spayed bitches, making the condition more likely to have a fatal outcome.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> So essentially what he is saying that the European dogs vs NA live longer and healthier lives because of far lower rates of spay/neutering?
> 
> Leslie if it helps, at this point I plan on keeping my girl intact even though I have no plans of breeding her as well. I fall into the line of thinking of what Aaron mentioned. Why would desexing be healthy for dogs when it's recognized as very unhealthy for people? I think you need to look through a lot of the spay/neuter propaganda and stats pumped out by rescues and shelters from a purely population control perspective and not necessarily with health benefits in mind.


A similar study was conducted in the US using Rottweilers.
Intact bitches lived significantly longer than spayed bitches.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> So essentially what he is saying that the European dogs vs NA live longer and healthier lives because of far lower rates of spay/neutering?
> 
> Leslie if it helps, at this point I plan on keeping my girl intact even though I have no plans of breeding her as well. I fall into the line of thinking of what Aaron mentioned. Why would desexing be healthy for dogs when it's recognized as very unhealthy for people? I think you need to look through a lot of the spay/neuter propaganda and stats pumped out by rescues and shelters from a purely population control perspective and not necessarily with health benefits in mind.


 
This is how I feel too. I have a female pup for sport and though I have no plans to ever breed her, I won't be altering her to prevent pregnancy. I do wish they had something to prevent canine heat cycles, but minus all the rather scary side effects, of course.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Aaron Myracle said:


> It's also important to note that spaying doesn't eliminate the risk of pyometra, and in fact, the rate of pyometra in spayed bitches is estimated to be 35%.
> Pyometra is often overlooked in spayed bitches, making the condition more likely to have a fatal outcome.


I did NOT know this. I thought spaying elimated the risk. I also did not know Connie's statistic, that Pyometra only kills about 1% of the intact bitches that contract it. I have a lot to learn before my pup grows up!! She's my first female.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Well if nothing else this thread has further convinced me that females are way too complex and I will continue to own male animals. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I also did not know .... that Pyometra only kills about 1% of the intact bitches that contract it. ....


It kills 1% of intact bitches. That's very different.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Aaron Myracle said:


> It's also important to note that spaying doesn't eliminate the risk of pyometra, and in fact, the rate of pyometra in spayed bitches is estimated to be 35%.
> Pyometra is often overlooked in spayed bitches, making the condition more likely to have a fatal outcome.



Where are you seeing that 35%?

I am _certain_ that it's incorrect. I can't find it in the link, though.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Where are you seeing that 35%?
> 
> I am _certain_ that it's incorrect. I can't find it in the link, though.



I see what you were looking at, I think.

_"Stump pyometra is uniquely associated with OVH, 
and can develop if endometrial tissue at the uterine stump 
is stimulated by either endogenous, because of incomplete 
ovarian tissue removal, or by exogenously administered 
progesterone. In Okkens et al report on 55 dogs with 
gynecologic complications after OVH, 19 (35%) had 
stump pyometra associated with residual ovarian tissue."_ 


This is saying that in the report mentioned, 35% *of dogs with complications after 
ovariohysterectomy (OVH)* had stump pyometra.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Seems to be a more complicated issue than I first thought. Thank you to everyone for your thoughts and experiences with this.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Aaron Myracle said:


> A similar study was conducted in the US using Rottweilers.
> Intact bitches lived significantly longer than spayed bitches.


Also, http://www.purdue.edu/uns/x/2009b/091201OvarianResearch.html


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Connie, you're absolutely right.
I'm COMPLETELY misread that entire passage and the chart that follows it.

Let me do some math and figure out what percentage of all the spayed dogs developed stump pyo... Hang on, this might take awhile.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Interestingly, I have a female Rottweiler who was spayed very late (at 9 years of age three years ago when I adopted her from the local shelter). I don't know her exact birthday, just know she was 9 when I got her a day after Thanksgiving 2007. Anyways, I treat her like a Thoroughbred and consider her birthday on January 1st. So she's nearly 13 and doing actually pretty well considering. Her main health concerns are PRA (she's losing her vision), keeping an eye on her teeth because she's got a horrible malocclusive bite, and very severe hip and elbow dysplasia being controlled pretty well with meloxicam, Dasuquin, fish oil, and so on. And last but not least, mammary cancer. I have removed 2 rather large masses from her mammary chains in 3 years and they have so far *crosses fingers and knocks on wood* been mixed mammary tumors (which is benign), but I am always worried the next will not be so polite. 

So...like all things, there is always a risk/benefit analysis. Stump pyometra is pretty darn uncommon. If the ovary was removed fully, it should not develop (as pointed out in that article). Interestingly, just from my perspective doing the surgeries, ovarian remnants are more likely in older females that have a lot of fat on their uterine broad ligament and ovarian pedicle, which makes the ovary more difficult to visualize. In regards to hormone dependent incontinence, one problem is often any dribbling or house soiling is called "spay incontinence" and the dog is put on proin without a further work up. There are quite a few things, both endocrine and neurological and even simply the size of the dog or tail docking, that can cause incontinence that are not necessarily directly spay related. 

BTW, happy three year adoption anniversary, Elsa. ;-)


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I have had about 15 bitches and spayed them all. The ones that have past lived between 15 and 17 years with no spay incontinence, stump pyometra or orthopedic problems. They were healthy dogs.

Out of my current batch I have 4 spayed bitches ranging in age from 2 to 11.

I nearly lost one of them at 10 months old when she came down with pyometra following her first heat cycle so she had an emergency spay. Her mother was euthanaised for continuing complications caused by pyometra.

I left her to have her first heat cycle because she has a congenitally induced incontinence, present since she was born. She is now 4 and has always been on propallin and there is no leaking and she lives as a house dog with no issues.

Just my experience with a long line of spayed bitches. No problems at all. If they were unspayed they would probably attract wild dogs onto my farm plus the neighbours unneutered sheepdogs.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Well if nothing else this thread has further convinced me that females are way too complex and I will continue to own male animals. :lol:


I have both and prefer the girls, although I like my boys too. But then I spay mine with no problems and know plenty of spayed bitches with no problems. In fact most of our dop agility dogs are spayed bitches.

My mother had a complete ovahysterectomy in her mid thirties after serious and massive complication during childbirth and she is now 80 and very healthy and active and hasnt required any hormonal supplements or the like..


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

This is something I asked Maren on FB last night... but does anybody know a way to reduce the risk of pyrometra post estrus? My thought was take the dog to the vets to get her checked out post estrus. Or is being diligent and knowing the signs symptoms the best way to reduce the risk.

Note: I know the best way to reduce the risk is to spay, but I'd prefer to not go that route... I'm looking for options on how to reduce the risk while the female is still intact.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And then you'd also want to consider that while pyometra "would affect about 23% of intact female dogs," it "kills about 1% of intact female dogs."
> 
> 23% is very different from 1%.


Connie is the 1% of the 23% or 1% of the whole?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Connie is the 1% of the 23% or 1% of the whole?


Sue phrased it one way (1% of the 23%) and I was correcting it to say no, it's 1% of all intact female dogs.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Sue phrased it one way (1% of the 23%) and I was correcting it to say no, it's 1% of all intact female dogs.


Sorry to be causing any confusion, and Connie, thanks for clarifying, I misread your original post.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

When I was racing sleddogs most of my race females were spayed, between 1-5yrs of age at spay, all lived to 14+yrs with no health problems related to spaying, actually pretty much no health problems at all related to anything. Currently none of our females, GSD's, are spayed, age range from 3months to 11yrs, benign mammary tumors on two of them, 10 and 11yrs, no pyo to date with any.

Ang


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I would spay the female. If you don't want to breed her, and don't want to deal with the cycles it would seem like the best solution. My understanding is that spay incontinence is linked with early age spaying (the average age in the article I read was 7 months to spay the female, with incontinence showing itself after 2 years of age). Having spayed/neutered a number of animals of my own and via rescue, I have been lucky to never had any complications or health issues. On the flip side I have had a bitch with pyo that had to have an emergency spay so that my also be swaying my opinion.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I've had alot of spayed females and never had any with any problems related to spaying - all worked (sleddog) into their teens and were active and healthy. The unspayed females have been pretty much the same. I will spay any females I don't intend to ever breed and have not really found it it impact health or working attitude negatively.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> I've had alot of spayed females and never had any with any problems related to spaying


My experience has been the same. I've had a mixture of males and females over the years (slightly more females than males). The females I had were spayed around 2-3 years of age. At that time I'd have a number of x rays done and if warranted they'd receive a gastropexy.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

That is a nice thing to do, especially for females since you are in the abdomen anyways. The incision has to be extended, but if I had a female that I got from a breeder (and not a rescue that wasn't already done) that I would end up spaying, I'd probably gastropexy her.


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