# Why does it matter that a dog pushes on a bite?



## Nick Hrycaj

I am looking into getting a suit and in the research found an article where Hunter was recieveing feedback to the effect that a dogs bite should push during work in the bite suit but should pull on a sleeve. That confused me. Then came the conversation about a calm crushing bite here recently.

My questions are:
1. Why should a dog bite different on a sleeve vs suit? From a practicality standpoint, if the dog gets a good full mouth grip why do I care if he pulls or pushes. If the bite is not readjusted and allows for the most chance of being maintained until I can help join the fight, im happy.

2. Is the push/ pull of the dog's bite at all related to the opposition reflex stuff people talk about during leash corrections/ cues? A decoy pulling away causes the dog to pull opposite to keep its prey stationary sort of thing?

3. Ideas on why a dog would consistently engage on the bite then pull in circles causing a prone decoy to spin?


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## Jay Quinn

surprised there are no comments on this yet... 


this is just my 2c...


i think from a tactical point of view it is seen as being safer if the dog is pushing in, especially if it's the sort of situation where once the dog is on more than one officer is going to assist in taking that person to the ground and restraining them... the dog is less likely to come off the bite and as such less likely to re-grip on an assiting officer, etc... 

if the dog has only managed to grab clothing on someone who is thickly dressed, and starts tugging, then they are probably just hanging off clothing and not hurting the person at all... there is a chance that the clothing will rip and the dog will come off... if the dog pushes into the grip, if all they get is clothing first go, then when they push in and re-bite there is hope they will get person on the second try... 

i think it also helps with the dog's confidence, from what i have seen with my own dogs, when they push in and re-bite and make the decoy scream and they can see they are hurting them (regardless of if the deocy is just acting or not), my guys at least you can see them go "heck yeah!" and they get a kick out of it... they know that they are actually fighting the person and that they can win, and they're not just hanging off them playing a game of tug... 

my decoy also teaches something called pain compliance, where the dogs' opposite reflex instinct is used... my old boy is awesome at pushing into the bite so when we demonstrate this with him the decoy will usually put him on a tricep bite, with me out at the end of a long line and keeping tension... i tell the decoy drop the weapon, get on the ground, etc, he says no, eff off, and i let some slack in the leash which causes the dog to re-bite, which of course really hurts... so i repeat my demands, get backchat again, let my dog re-bite again, and by this stage the decoy is really in pain and is ready to comply so that i will take the dog off him... so he drops his weapon and falls on the ground, i then climb up the leash, yell a bit about keeping still and not fighting my dog, etc, tell him i'm going to take the dog off him but if he makes any sudden movements he'll get bit again, etc etc, and then out my dog, put him in a down stay, and pretend to cuff the decoy while my dog waits beside him (i can't actually cuff him because i am only civillian security and am not currently licensed to carry baton or cuffs, and because the poor buggers wrists don't meet behind his back when he has the suit on lol)... 

that's just my take on things.... hopefully some more experienced LEOs will chime in...


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## Dave Colborn

Push vs. Pulling. One of the many signs a dog is ready to get off a bite is pulling. If a dog is uncomfortable they rarely push. If a dog is trained to pull and uncomfortable you may not see anything prior to him popping off and heading to the truck.

Pulling alone is not a sign of a weak dog.

Either can be a trained behavior with a good dog.


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## jim stevens

Mine has never had a good trainer, just me. She often pulls, with a lot of shaking, then pushes in hard, so I guess she does both. Is that unusual?


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## lannie dulin

There is not straight answer to this question. This depends on the sport you're competing in as well as the breed/line you're working with. The ring sports like to see a dog push in because it is said that a dog pulling is uncomfortable and trying to escape with the bite. This is because these sports are primarily based around Mals/Dutchies. These breeds normally have a push in style of biting when they are comfortable. This sport also focuses on leg bites which give the dog that opportunity to push in if it desires.

For Schutzhund a pull is preferable because it's impossible for a dog to push when it's front legs are off the ground while biting a sleeve. Pulling indicates the dog is fighting to pull that sleeve off the decoy. Pulling is also very common and natural for GSD's, which Schutzhund was created for. 

The primary reason pushing or pulling is better has to do with the dog. I would establish a baseline for that dog to see if he pulls or pushes when he is comfortable on the bite. If a dog that pushes starts pulling then it's too much pressure and I need to turn it down a bit.


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## lannie dulin

jim stevens said:


> Mine has never had a good trainer, just me. She often pulls, with a lot of shaking, then pushes in hard, so I guess she does both. Is that unusual?


How a dog plays with the handler doesn't indicate a biting style for bitework. My female mal pushes in when she does bitework, but pulls and thrashes with me. The two are different in a dogs mind.


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## Terry Berns

I honestly cannot add knowledge to this thread except that I thank you for asking the question. I have a 5 yr old male Rottie that I've been working in French Ring since 10 months old, he has always pulled on the leg rather than push. I have wondered if it's because Rotties, due to their size, are just better upper body dogs. Occasionally, we work upper body where he is definitely more confident with stick pressure, however, due to his training experience goes to legs when given the option of either.


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## lannie dulin

Terry Berns said:


> I honestly cannot add knowledge to this thread except that I thank you for asking the question. I have a 5 yr old male Rottie that I've been working in French Ring since 10 months old, he has always pulled on the leg rather than push. I have wondered if it's because Rotties, due to their size, are just better upper body dogs. Occasionally, we work upper body where he is definitely more confident with stick pressure, however, due to his training experience goes to legs when given the option of either.


Exactly, right.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Jay, I like the tactical/ police deployment clothing issues you bring up. My partner pulls so hard on back bites when the decoy is prone he often pulls the jacket right off, imagine how easily he would pull himself loose of a bite with just street clothing.

Others, thanks for the thoughts on pre-release indicators. Its tid bits like that that I come to the forum setting to learn about.


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## Katie Finlay

I train IPO and we teach all of our dogs to push when biting. Totally possible.


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## Jay Quinn

lannie dulin said:


> " a pull is preferable because it's impossible for a dog to push when it's front legs are off the ground while biting a sleeve."


this is not true... it is more difficult for the dog to push in while his front legs are off the ground but it's certainly not impossible... look at the KNPV dogs on bicep bites on a suit... from my understanding the SchH people don't like the push-in because the dog often shifts its grip when re-biting, and they don't want the dog moving on the grip... 
(i don't train SchH or any sport, observations just taken from comments on forums, and watching those who do...)

i don't see why a dog should not push on a sleeve, either, if it is taught to push on a suit... two of mine who push in will push on a sleeve as well...


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## Joby Becker

Jay Quinn said:


> this is not true... it is more difficult for the dog to push in while his front legs are off the ground but it's certainly not impossible... look at the KNPV dogs on bicep bites on a suit... from my understanding the SchH people don't like the push-in because the dog often shifts its grip when re-biting, and they don't want the dog moving on the grip...
> (i don't train SchH or any sport, observations just taken from comments on forums, and watching those who do...)
> 
> i don't see why a dog should not push on a sleeve, either, if it is taught to push on a suit... two of mine who push in will push on a sleeve as well...


I concur with your assessment of that statement being false, and for your reasons given as to why many IPO people prefer the pulling, that and many feel it helps hinder helper movements with more weight on the grip... my experiences.


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## Bob Scott

I had a couple of helpers tell me they didn't like to work my dog because he would push or pull to counter their moves. One said it made them look bad. ](*,)


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## lannie dulin

Katie Finlay said:


> I train IPO and we teach all of our dogs to push when biting. Totally possible.


How does your dog push with his front paws off the floor? Any vid of that? Also GSD often have a natural pulling style. You train counter to what is natural for them?


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## lannie dulin

Jay Quinn said:


> this is not true... it is more difficult for the dog to push in while his front legs are off the ground but it's certainly not impossible... look at the KNPV dogs on bicep bites on a suit... from my understanding the SchH people don't like the push-in because the dog often shifts its grip when re-biting, and they don't want the dog moving on the grip...
> (i don't train SchH or any sport, observations just taken from comments on forums, and watching those who do...)
> 
> i don't see why a dog should not push on a sleeve, either, if it is taught to push on a suit... two of mine who push in will push on a sleeve as well...


ME agrees. I'll take his experience and his word for it. You don't have agree...it doesn't effect my dog's training any. Cheers


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## susan tuck

Jay Quinn said:


> *.......from my understanding the SchH people don't like the push-in because the dog often shifts its grip when re-biting, and they don't want the dog moving on the grip...*


Correct...looking for calm full bite, a dog can re-grip but shouldn't appear chewy in any way.

Also has to do with holding the helper rather than punishing the helper (right or wrong), what you're seeing is oppositional reflex, the reason has nothing to do with "trying to get the sleeve from the helper" as I think I saw on one response:roll::roll:


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## lannie dulin

susan tuck said:


> Correct...looking for calm full bite, a dog can re-grip but shouldn't appear chewy in any way.
> 
> Also has to do with holding the helper rather than punishing the helper (right or wrong), what you're seeing is oppositional reflex, the reason has nothing to do with "trying to get the sleeve from the helper" as I think I saw on one response:roll::roll:


If the dog is being slipped a sleeve continually through training, you mean to tell me he's not trying to pull the sleeve off the helper? That dog is not thinking "i'm going to rip this right off your arm"?


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## Nick Hrycaj

Someone mentioned that a pulling dog indicates one less comfortable on the bite. Given that logic there should be a time where you could avoid that pull with a certain set of training - prey drive runaway bite, added fight from decoy, more rapidly weak decoy. My first and only experience with a bite dog does not follow that weak dog = prone to pull model


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## susan tuck

lannie dulin said:


> If the dog is being slipped a sleeve continually through training, you mean to tell me he's not trying to pull the sleeve off the helper? That dog is not thinking "i'm going to rip this right off your arm"?


Exactly. What I am telling you is a *good* dog is not trying to get the sleeve, a *good* dog is trying to "arrest" or stop the helper. Also I don't know where you get the idea dogs are continually slipped the sleeve, simply isn't the case.


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## Joby Becker

lannie dulin said:


> How does your dog push with his front paws off the floor? Any vid of that? Also GSD often have a natural pulling style. You train counter to what is natural for them?


back legs 



lannie dulin said:


> If the dog is being slipped a sleeve continually through training, you mean to tell me he's not trying to pull the sleeve off the helper? That dog is not thinking "i'm going to rip this right off your arm"?


no, this dog for instance, rarely if ever tried to rip the sleeve off of someones arm, she did try to crush your arm though, or the barrel of an IPO style sleeve.

here is video of dog with pushing grip, sometimes with front feet off of the ground, that is not trying to pull sleeve off ... not the best footage I know....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQafyCFfSJk&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A

here is video of dog just opposing force applied to tug whether forward or backward,,,without trying to rip it out of the hands...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW2AIXq89IQ


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## lannie dulin

Joby Becker said:


> back legs
> 
> 
> 
> no, this dog for instance, rarely if ever tried to rip the sleeve off of someones arm, she did try to crush your arm though, or the barrel of an IPO style sleeve.
> 
> here is video of dog with pushing grip, sometimes with front feet off of the ground, that is not trying to pull sleeve off ... not the best footage I know....
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQafyCFfSJk&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A
> 
> here is video of dog just opposing force applied to tug whether forward or backward,,,without trying to rip it out of the hands...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW2AIXq89IQ


I can't see the dog's body to determine if it's pushing or pulling when biting with its front paws off the ground in the 1st video. In the 2nd video that's not biting a decoy, and I'm not sure of the goals of the training (not something I'd spend time on in my routines).

This appears to be the same dog as your vid and it is pulling on the arm bite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur9J-wuMBds&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A


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## lannie dulin

susan tuck said:


> Exactly. What I am telling you is a *good* dog is not trying to get the sleeve, a *good* dog is trying to "arrest" or stop the helper. Also I don't know where you get the idea dogs are continually slipped the sleeve, simply isn't the case.


Okay, I'll have to take your word for it, I've never seen it because I haven't seen it.


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## Jay Quinn

it's funny, because my now SAR dog did protection training before changing streams... a lot of what he has done has helped him along the way with SAR, such as the bark and hold translating over to his bark alert and staying where the victim is, etc... he was excelling at bitework, and handled every confrontation we'd had at work... but up to a point they were all people who were fleeing or neutral, none were really angry at all... then we did have an angry encounter and my dog would not engage... you can see in his eyes he was thinking "whoa, this is NOT what i signed up for!"... 

this dog, when on the bite, would take a LOT of pressure... stick hits, being smashed into things, decoy wrapping him up, lifting him completely off the ground, slapping him with an open hand in various places, lots of noise, etc etc... i don't recall him ever coming off a bite in training... but in his head, the only difference between the tug toy and the bite suit is the size... the suit to him is still a toy and he is just playing a big game of tug-o-war with someone... he gets on the bite and just tugs and tugs and tugs for all he is worth... and he will go bark at a human without any equipment but he definitely won't touch them no matter how angry they get at him... 



i have another dog who prefers to shake... he grabs what he can and hangs on for dear life... not always pulling but he rarely ever pushes in to re-grip, either, he just tends to thrash wildly or just hang there... he's also had a tonne of pressure put on him when he was younger and when i first got him would not even stay on a sleeve... he's come a long way and while i trust him to take a live bite if the SHTF i don't know how long he would stay in a fight if someone did not submit pretty quickly... 


my other two dogs are father and son... the old boy i have already mentioned in my first post (straight after the OP)... he is an amazing dog and has been back and forth between a few handlers (very long story i'm not about to bash out here), has had probably a half dozen live bites (with another handler), and i'd trust my life to him... on a word he will engage and fight for all he is worth, i doubt he would let go until he was utterly exhausted or dead... he continually drives into the bite and then shakes, regardless of what equipment he is on, and does the same even when there is none... 

my youngest dog is from the old boy, i got him as a pup but (another long story) had to move him on at 7mths old... he went to the defence force but failed out again at about 17mths... the reason i was given was, in a nutshell, "gunfire issues", which we have not had a problem with since i got him back... he had however had a shitload of handler pressure put on him, and he does not like me being anywhere near him at all when he is on a bite, even though i have put very little pressure on him... he alternates between pulling like my SAR dog and driving in like his father... the more work we do with him the better he is getting at just driving in... and he is slowly getting more comfortable with me being up close to him while is is biting, and he doesn't straight away change to pulling and trying to drag the decoy in a circle so he can move away from me... he is funny to watch on the suit though, where he can see that he is definitely hurting the decoy... when he drives in and re-bites and the decoy reacts in pain you can almost see him puff up... his tail comes up higher, his ears go up, and he is trying to make eye contact with the decoy... he enjoys the fight for sure but for the time being we just have to build him up and teach him that he can always overcome and win!



sory for another random ramble, i haven't had a coffee yet this morning... just making observations from my own experiences... i've been doing civillian K9 work for 10yrs now and i think i am up to dog #13, but most of them only spent a short stint (12mths or less) with me in the past before i worked out they weren't suitable for the work and either moved them on or said goodbye if the issues were too severe (i took a couple of aggressive re-homes before i understood how things should really work)... until my current little pack of 4 i never really understood the whole pulling vs pushing thing so i can't really recall what any of my previous dogs used to do... i wish i'd had more knowledege and better people to train with back then because a couple of them might have worked out better, but oh well... live and learn...


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## Joby Becker

lannie dulin said:


> I can't see the dog's body to determine if it's pushing or pulling when biting with its front paws off the ground in the 1st video. In the 2nd video that's not biting a decoy, and I'm not sure of the goals of the training (not something I'd spend time on in my routines).
> 
> This appears to be the same dog as your vid and it is pulling on the arm bite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur9J-wuMBds&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A


I stand corrected, the dog does display some very minor pulling, at that point that was the dogs 3rd bite ever on a sleeve in her life at just over 9 months of age..

Anyhow, what it seems what you think about a "pushing" grip is a little different than what I and most people I know think.

A pushing grip to me is more directed at what the dog is doing with his head and mouth, as in trying to fill it. Not so much a full body counter as in how some dogs will pull and use their entire bodies to pull on whatever it is they are biting. A pushing grip on a dog does not mean to me that the dog is necessary using its whole body to constantly keep pushing the entire person forward. To me it means that the dog keeps trying to get more in his mouth, pushing his head in, back to the fulcrum point to where it cant get fuller, and still trying to get more, as opposed to getting a grip and pulling back, whether that be with a full body behind it, or just the grip itself.

I think we are talking about two different things in my mind. I am talking about a gripping style, that is opposite of pulling grip, you seem to be talking about countering techniques that involve more than just the gripping style.


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## Bob Scott

Joby, much better explanation and claification! :wink:


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## Marcel Winter

Personal I prefer a push bite .


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## lannie dulin

Joby Becker said:


> I stand corrected, the dog does display some very minor pulling, at that point that was the dogs 3rd bite ever on a sleeve in her life at just over 9 months of age..
> 
> Anyhow, what it seems what you think about a "pushing" grip is a little different than what I and most people I know think.
> 
> A pushing grip to me is more directed at what the dog is doing with his head and mouth, as in trying to fill it. Not so much a full body counter as in how some dogs will pull and use their entire bodies to pull on whatever it is they are biting. A pushing grip on a dog does not mean to me that the dog is necessary using its whole body to constantly keep pushing the entire person forward. To me it means that the dog keeps trying to get more in his mouth, pushing his head in, back to the fulcrum point to where it cant get fuller, and still trying to get more, as opposed to getting a grip and pulling back, whether that be with a full body behind it, or just the grip itself.
> 
> I think we are talking about two different things in my mind. I am talking about a gripping style, that is opposite of pulling grip, you seem to be talking about countering techniques that involve more than just the gripping style.


This may be a 1st but I agree. That does clarify. That is exactly right, we were talking about 2 different mechanics.


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## jim stevens

Joby, that is what I was talking about as well. Mine will lean back and pull, thrashing, then push in fast to get a full mouth. Sometimes it will happen so fast, the change in pressure will almost make me lose my balance completely.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Back to one of the initial questions - why a dog that pulls in circles/spins? Think it's conditioning that showed the dog if he pulls in a circle the approaching handler cannot as quickly get physical control to leash up or choke off and thus the dog self rewards with longer bite?


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## Jay Quinn

again this is just personal experience but yes most of the dogs that i see that spin around on the bite have experienced a lot of handler pressure and are trying to avoid being near the handler...


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## Bob Scott

Jay Quinn said:


> again this is just personal experience but yes most of the dogs that i see that spin around on the bite have experienced a lot of handler pressure and are trying to avoid being near the handler...



I also believe it can be avoidance of the helper's stick hits.


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## Jay Quinn

that's very true Bob i didn't really think about that, my decoy doesn't use the stick much as sadly most of the dogs he trains are a bit crap... he has to do the best he can with what he's looking at though as a lot of people are either too dumb to realise their dog sucks or just can't afford to get another and they are making do with what they have... 

that being said that most dogs i have seen will just drop straight off the bite when the stick is produced or when it touches the dog... again just personal experiences and observations... 

i have also heard of dogs who will anticipate an out after a certain amount of time, and if that out has come with a lot of handler pressure the dog will automatically start to spin in anticipation of the out and the pressure coming with it even if it has not been asked to out...


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## Bob Scott

I've seen one jerk away like it was hit with a e-collar and the dog has never had an e-collar on.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I think this os one issue people will never agree on....especially Opinionated people. Dog behaviour is not one dimensional like that.

Many strong dogs bite either way as do weak dogs. You have to read the whole body language, grip strength and consistency etc to say the dog is weak or not.

I train a female malinois that never bites with a full mouth and pulls all the time but she will bite me when im on a tree, A-frame etc.....Another male will bite with a strong full bite but once u add a little environmental pressure...He doesn't even bite....SO in real life which dog do you want.:-k

I think both styles have their flaws....If a bad guy has a knife and is hiding in a shed,I want the dog to pull him out so i can tase him or bless him with lead,,,but for sport or regular apprehensions, I think its a matter or preference. Just my little rant for the week


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## jack van strien

Tobi i do not think you need a dog at all,just shoot the people why don't you?
I was thinking you were a nice guy but you are thinking like law enforment now.
It has not been so hot here lately,what is eating you?
In real life i would not want either of the dogs you are training,do you think they would be good protection dogs?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

jack van strien said:


> Tobi i do not think you need a dog at all,just shoot the people why don't you?
> I was thinking you were a nice guy but you are thinking like law enforment now.
> It has not been so hot here lately,what is eating you?
> In real life i would not want either of the dogs you are training,do you think they would be good protection dogs?


Uhmm....I was referring to dangerous suspects and specifically armed ones. If someone sees a dog and a bunch of L.E officers and still doesn't give up his weapon i assume they are out for blood.
I made the comments about tasing or shooting in case the dog wasn't enough of a deterrent. I've seen cops get sliced like meat during confrontations.
I know this is a sensitive matter and i have no experience in L.E and definitely do not support shooting people for no reason.....My main point was that in some situations it would be better to have a dog that can drag the suspect out instead of a static pushing bite where the dog can get shot or stabbed in the case of a hiding suspect.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Jack, I invite you to critique dog things but you sound stupid when you talk shit about police actions. Both police and their k9 partners are placed in dangerous situations including ones where more force is required . We can hope our dogs perform in a way that makes more force unnecessary but sometimes the circumstances of encounters do not allow that. At the end of the day Innocents (even you) are going home safe, I am going home safe and hopefully my k9 partner is too.


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## jack van strien

Nick what are you talking about?


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## Nick Hrycaj

jack van strien said:


> Tobi i do not think you need a dog at all,just shoot the people why don't you?
> I was thinking you were a nice guy but you are thinking like law enforment now.


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## jack van strien

Nick i was not talking to you and the comment i made to Tobi was just to get him to respond.
I know he is not le and i know he would not shoot people.
There are no police dogs in Thailand,no need for them here.
On the other hand if you are le i do appreciate your effort to keep (even me)safe but being le does not make you any better then anyone else who is doing their job.


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## Tiago Fontes

For a street dog, I dont mind a dog that bites full, shakes and pulls the bad guy off balance. 

The problem with this style... is the damage it can cause!


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## Nick Hrycaj

Good thing for both of us I never claimed nor am I disillusioned enough to think I'm better than anyone. Regardless I'm here to learn not to get riled up over unrelated junk.

Just as a matter of curiosity, is there much interest in dog sports there in Thailand? Clubs or trials or anything?


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## Brian McQuain

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Jack, I invite you to critique dog things but you sound stupid when you talk shit about police actions. Both police and their k9 partners are placed in dangerous situations including ones where more force is required . We can hope our dogs perform in a way that makes more force unnecessary but sometimes the circumstances of encounters do not allow that. At the end of the day Innocents (even you) are going home safe, I am going home safe and hopefully my k9 partner is too.


Yup.


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> Exactly. What I am telling you is a *good* dog is not trying to get the sleeve, a *good* dog is trying to "arrest" or stop the helper. Also I don't know where you get the idea dogs are continually slipped the sleeve, simply isn't the case.


Good on ya Sue - some myths need destroying!!


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## Gillian Schuler

Jay Quinn said:


> that's very true Bob i didn't really think about that, my decoy doesn't use the stick much as sadly most of the dogs he trains are a bit crap... he has to do the best he can with what he's looking at though as a lot of people are either too dumb to realise their dog sucks or just can't afford to get another and they are making do with what they have...
> 
> that being said that most dogs i have seen will just drop straight off the bite when the stick is produced or when it touches the dog... again just personal experiences and observations...
> 
> i have also heard of dogs who will anticipate an out after a certain amount of time, and if that out has come with a lot of handler pressure the dog will automatically start to spin in anticipation of the out and the pressure coming with it even if it has not been asked to out...


Dogs that avoid stick hits and also what you have said about dogs doing this should be trained in another Sport venue, maybe tracking or obedience, etc.


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## jack van strien

There are a few people doing dogsports here in Thailand but it is very small scale.I stopped training when i moved here because i feel it is too hot for both decoy and dog to really be able to give it all.
Some people do not agree with me but that is ok.
Tobi is training dogs over here and he could probably tell you more.
Stay safe.


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## Jay Quinn

Gillian Schuler said:


> Dogs that avoid stick hits and also what you have said about dogs doing this should be trained in another Sport venue, maybe tracking or obedience, etc.


sadly for civillian security this is not always an option... as i said previously some people have to make do with what they have, and others are so damn naive or pig headed stupid that they don't realise that their dog is crap... there is still a lot of belief floating around that just because a dog is a [insert breed here] it comes out of the box knowing how to be gentle to children, decide for itself who is the "bad guy" and fearlessly defend the handler/family with its life, with no training whatsoever... 

so the husband has a mid-life crisis and decides he wants to become a dog handler and the 5yo family pet who has never so much as barked at the door suddenly finds himself being pushed into service... or some young bloke gets his handler's ticket and buys a $200 12mo GSD off (the equivalent of) craigslist that is being given up because it's displaying chronic boredom behaviours and destroying the back yard... takes it to work gets into a fight and suddenly he's got two problems on his hands because his dog is doing its damndest to flee in terror... 


and sadly of all the companies who offer man & dog teams in the state i only know of two who enforce any kind of training for the dogs... and i'm not even sure if one of them has continued with their training, in fact i'm almost certain their training stopped... and so there is only one company in the state who runs dogs that has said "you *must* train your dog as a condition of your employment".... but that being said, if they were to sack every handler who didn't bother to attend training, they would not have enough people to cover all the shifts that they must fill every week... >_<

there is absolutely no rules or regulations that say what a security dog should or should not be over here... you could put a 3-legged miniature poodle on a leash and take it to work and so long as you had your handler's ticket there's not a single f*cken thing anyone can do about it :/




as far as the dog pulling bad guys out of places - you can either work the dog on a long leash and use the line to drag the both of them out, or could you teach the dog a command to drag whoever he is biting back to you? even if the dog is a natural "pusher" and will happily stand there re-gripping until he's just about deep-throated himself, you could somehow teach him to bring the bad guy back to you? i'm not sure how you'd go about it as it's not something i've ever had to train... my dogs don't work off-leash...


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## Joby Becker

Jay Quinn said:


> as far as the dog pulling bad guys out of places - you can either work the dog on a long leash and use the line to drag the both of them out, or could you teach the dog a command to drag whoever he is biting back to you? even if the dog is a natural "pusher" and will happily stand there re-gripping until he's just about deep-throated himself, you could somehow teach him to bring the bad guy back to you? i'm not sure how you'd go about it as it's not something i've ever had to train... my dogs don't work off-leash...


"Bring!"


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

jack van strien said:


> There are a few people doing dogsports here in Thailand but it is very small scale.I stopped training when i moved here because i feel it is too hot for both decoy and dog to really be able to give it all.
> Some people do not agree with me but that is ok.
> Tobi is training dogs over here and he could probably tell you more.
> Stay safe.


Like Jack has rightfully said there are very few dogsport people, and fewer that are decent trainers. If you don't have a car, your personal field and extra cash you'll be frustrated.
I only train on some weekends...5:30am-8am and 5pm to say 7pm. Sometimes i make the 3 hour trip only for the other club members to not feel like training. This country wasn't made for people like me lol....
The biggest kennel here is Siam crown kennels, you can google them. They have a lot of experience and european trainers coming in regularly. They are just too far and i have to take the sidelines and observe if i even make it there....


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## Brian McQuain

Joby Becker said:


> "Bring!"


HA! Im going to try that next training. Command is already taught, so lets see if they'll retrieve a decoy for me.


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## Joby Becker

Brian McQuain said:


> HA! Im going to try that next training. Command is already taught, so lets see if they'll retrieve a decoy for me.


I bought a dog once that would retrieve 3/4 beef steer so why not?

It will work I have done it and seen it done plenty of times..

dog may or may not retrieve the decoy and present to handler but should easily pull him out from under stuff if that is what is desired...


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## Brian McQuain

Joby Becker said:


> I bought a dog once that would retrieve 3/4 beef steer so why not?
> 
> It will work I have done it and seen it done plenty of times..
> 
> dog may or may not retrieve the decoy and present to handler but should easily pull him out from under stuff if that is what is desired...


Was it only 3/4 of the steer because the other 1/4 ended up inside the dog?


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## Joby Becker

Brian McQuain said:


> Was it only 3/4 of the steer because the other 1/4 ended up inside the dog?


I am not a cattle expert, when I watched the videos, shot in rural Spain, I was told that they were 3/4 steer...

I assumed that meant smaller younger steer..

some of those dog would pull that steer all the way back to the shoot gate.


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