# Inexperienced decoys



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Simple question (maybe)

Would you allow an inexperienced decoy to work your dog?
In what situations?
What level of training would you expect from the dog and from the decoy to be able to do this safely?


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Simple question (maybe)
> 
> Would you allow an inexperienced decoy to work your dog?
> In what situations?
> What level of training would you expect from the dog and from the decoy to be able to do this safely?


Im as inexperienced as they come, and I get to do really simple stuff with the experienced dogs. I get to do a little bit of stuff with the young dogs too, but i'm coached along as I do it.


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

As a decoy myself I have worked with lots of new decoys on my dogs. I did this because it seems as if nobody would allow them to due to not wanting to damage training or the dog. I would work on simple stuff until they could do more advance stuff or stay simple if they didn't have the ability to move to more advance work. There is always something a new decoy can do no matter what level or what sport you do. They have to learn for somebody. It also is a good training tool for the dogs to see something a little less then perfect some times.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Whenever possible I work a new decoy on an experienced dog and a new dog on an experienced decoy. That said, I've had to use my green dogs with green decoys many times, to the deteriment of the dog. Now that I'm in a position to have multiple semi-retired upper level dogs it's not an issue, but "back in the day" when we were trying to get a club going, train dogs, train decoys, etc we worked with what we had, and made the best of it.

With the semi-retired dogs, or even my competition dogs if there isn't a competition coming up soon, I'll let a newer decoy work any exercise I don't feel is a safety issue. Ie they can do a face attack, but with the dog on a bungee, long line or tire to slow it down so they don't jam the hell out of my dog because they don't catch it right. Or they work the dog on a back tie learning how to target the dog. The defense of handler and blind search/escort are good ones because they don't require a send, the dog bites close so less chance of a jam while still allowing the decoy to work on targeting and reading the dog.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jimmy Dalton said:


> As a decoy myself I have worked with lots of new decoys on my dogs. I did this because it seems as if nobody would allow them to due to not wanting to damage training or the dog. I would work on simple stuff until they could do more advance stuff or stay simple if they didn't have the ability to move to more advance work. There is always something a new decoy can do no matter what level or what sport you do. They have to learn for somebody. It also is a good training tool for the dogs to see something a little less then perfect some times.


Ain't much any one can add other than the importance a experienced mentor helping and teaching


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I will use a green helper if (big IF) he will listen to my wishes. If I say slip and he keeps fighting we are going to have a problem. If my dog is pretty solid in his foundation we should be okay. 

I would feel comfortable using a green helper for blind searches/barking and escape bites and OB for bites since he should be sliping the reward.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Simple question (maybe)
> 
> Would you allow an inexperienced decoy to work your dog?
> In what situations?
> What level of training would you expect from the dog and from the decoy to be able to do this safely?


Yes I let new decoys work my dog. Brand new, a little new, a little used, experienced. I have a suit and will travel. 

What I let the decoy do in regards to training my dog is completely dependant on what THEY can do. There have been times where there was zero training value for my dog, but a ton of training value for the decoy. 

And while yes progression is good and needed, sometimes it is in the best interest of the SPORT to let go of progression and work on basics to help develop an area's decoys. That effort, while it may make your dog regress to a certain point, will end up benefiting you/your dog/your area in the end.

It is good for the dog to see a variety of people and confidence levels in the suit/sleeve. 

We all start somewhere.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you want to go somewhere other than ring 1 it is a good idea. I can tell you that it doesn't do shit for your dog if you are aiming for three.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> Simple question (maybe)
> 
> Would you allow an inexperienced decoy to work your dog?
> In what situations?
> What level of training would you expect from the dog and from the decoy to be able to do this safely?


 Define "work" and "inexperienced" then the venue...

Some green decoys on any dog can bring out interesting training lessons. Other green decoys can be so stuff and fearful that they step on and fall all over the poor dog on any level. 

Then there are those with skills and stand there like a rock or throw down with those world-class flying catches! Sure snap the dog's neck and look like "world class decoys........ 

If the decoy, decoy trainee, or someone who just wants to try it is* SAFE*, I don't care. Watch my dog, activate the dog if he looks like he's moving towards a person not involved or decoy who has fallen and can't protect themself.

Everyone starts at the bottom in most venues and EVERYONE makes mistakes and has accidents. Quality does there best and tries to better their skills.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

For me A LOT has to do with how well the individaul follows instruction!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> For me A LOT has to do with how well the individaul follows instruction!


What you talking 'bout Willis? 'Structions...? Just wing it! :evil::mrgreen:
Kind of like the decoy telling the handler to "send the dog" and five more commands later it is released. Missed the timing and thatmeans everything. Great point Kyle!!!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

New decoys- older dogs.The older dogs can and will teach new decoys a lot. New decoys would not have a chance at messing up a young and learning dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Absolutely with my older dog. Not so with my younger dog. A green handler could get bit doing that.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Older to younger dogs was the progression when I started as a decoy. I honestly think the TD arranged to bring in evey tough and nasty dog she could get, just to see how serious I was about being a decoy. I had my first real bite the first week. The FIRST dog I was shown was one that was actually a hero, probably the best dog I've had the privilege to meet and also had a f**ked up neck from bad decoy work. It was made clear, if it was a choice between injuring myself or jamming a dog, I'd better be willing to go to the hospital instead of jamming.

It was also made clear that if I didn't follow directions to a T, I was out of there! I don't think I was allowed to "give" a bite to a young or green dog until I had observed and practiced agitating dogs (no bites) on lead for at least 100 hours, (that would be approx. ten weeks of showing up on time) and then it was under CLOSE supervision. I consider myself a quick study and it was still close to 500 hours before I was trusted to work puppies.

Some advice for decoys: (even the ones who think they are Gods) If the best handler/dog teams offer to help you, are willing to go out of their way to help you, you are on the right track. If that ain't happening, you ain't happening... You can take that to the bank.

And what do I say to all of the people who let me work their dogs along the way? THANK YOU! No pain, no gain worked both ways. I can only hope I paid you back for the help!


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

As has been already mentioned, if they follow instructions and if it's with an older, more experienced dog.
This was the way I was introduced to decoy work and I think it makes all the sense in the world. An older dog knows where to place itself on a sleeve, even if the Greenie isn't presenting the sleeve properly. Also it takes less work on the decoy's part to fire up an experienced dog. 
In my opinion they need to be eased into less experienced dogs. An inexperienced decoy can do a lot of things to hinder younger dogs' training.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

everyone would love great experienced decoys
the reality is there are not enough of them to go around
you do the best you can


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## Bill Whatley (Aug 26, 2009)

I just make sure the dog and person knows what the scenario is and back up to make it REAL SIMPLE FOR A SAFE DOG, everybody has to start somewhere. An Olympic Athlete that won't do it how I say to (recently) is less preferable than a regular club member that tries to learn. Listen to Kadi and read on NARA's web-site (www.ringsport.org). about it.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So playing the "rock or the hard spot" game. Which is most harmful, an inexperienced helper or handler? I'm saying handler as 6" of slack will get YOU bite and you never saw it coming!!!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So playing the "rock or the hard spot" game. Which is most harmful, an inexperienced helper or handler? I'm saying handler as 6" of slack will get YOU bite and you never saw it coming!!!


For me if the Handler can't handle the dog is Tied out or Posted.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: So playing the "rock or the hard spot" game. Which is most harmful, an inexperienced helper or handler? I'm saying handler as 6" of slack will get YOU bite and you never saw it coming!!!

So you don't explain anything to them ahead of time and just let it rip, or what ??


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: So playing the "rock or the hard spot" game. Which is most harmful, an inexperienced helper or handler? I'm saying handler as 6" of slack will get YOU bite and you never saw it coming!!!
> 
> So you don't explain anything to them ahead of time and just let it rip, or what ??


 
Jeff that is very true .I have 16 stitiches in my left shoulder because of those 6in. the only stead fast rule that I have is not green dogs on green decoys


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't get it. So you are saying that you DON'T explain to the new people, or you do and it happens anyway. 

I don't have any stitches.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Man all Tim has been doing is making nice posts just to get his head bit off… imagine that around here, F-M Tim. 
Just be careful around Jeffs dogs, you missed the pecker biting dog he posted last week, you’ll wish the dog hit you shoulder.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Tim's scar is quite an exceptional thing to see, I believe the dog in the encounter was in excess of 140lbs and also believe Tim's skills and knowledge could well have saved his AZZ from much more Serious Dammage.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't get it. So you are saying that you DON'T explain to the new people, or you do and it happens anyway.
> 
> I don't have any stitches.


just saying that the handler is very important. Hey Jeff you should get some stitches you will look cool and tough .


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I don't have any stitches.[/quote]

Pecker still there? That shit aint no joke


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Timothy Saunders said:


> just saying that the handler is very important. Hey Jeff you should get some stitches you will look cool and tough .


 Tim we address the "being a post" and even still have some close ones. Stitches, glad the morning coffee wasn't in my face. I have had several very close ones and don't want any "K-9 Tattoos." My mud shot is genetic ugly and not a training accident! :-# 

Green dogs on green decoys is a mistake. I was working with a new guy Sunday and like all of us, he was willing but fearful. And then the, "I'm not catching YOUR dog" comes out. It is a mistake to NOT tell green decoys about the possible happenings if the dog gets you and leaning forward is a great way to get face bit. This I corrected quickly with that guy. 

My only live bite was around my wrist from a yellow Lab mix and doing OB. After a prong correction, it shot across my body and ate my right wrist. That pain was bad, a shoulder or man parts bite is something I'll pass on.

In the future, I drink my coffee BEFORE reading any more of your posts! :mrgreen:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am too old and too fat and too worn out to look "cool" or "tough" anymore.

One of the reasons that I don't work with PP people is there are a lot of them out there that I worked with back in the day that would "accidently" let the line go out to see if their dog would "bite for real" I doubt that it is any different now. Hell people call training accidents "live bites". WTF is that shit ??

I was always quick enough, or the dog was too weak. However, I had the displeasure of explaining myself to the police about why I beat the **** out of a guy. I have no tolerance for that shit at all, and have lost my temper in the past and hurt the dog quite badly as well.

I never saw suprise on any one of the little pricks faces. THAT is what made me lose my ****ing mind. I cannot imagine doing that to someone who is helping me train my dog.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

We have an understanding at our club, seems to work well. If your dog bites me then my dog gets to bite YOU. 

That round table with the post in the middle helps too. Safety first.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jerry how many people did you say you had at the club? And who gets to pick the dog for the honors?!LOL


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i'm thinkin' it takes less than 6", more like 1 or 2"....lol. as an inexperienced "post" i've discovered that a 65 lb dog hitting the end of the line can jerk my canary ass forward pretty easily (thank heavens for experienced decoys/helpers  ).

but i also learned the line-handling, ie, keeping tension (even light tension while maintaining a good grip ) on the line at all times, and paying attention, minimizes, if not eliminates, that 1-2". "paying attention" should probably be in CAPS....


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