# Not enough training decoys



## Maren Bell Jones

I haven't been around PSA all that long, about a year and a half now, so take this as you will. What I'm seeing the biggest limitation to the spread of ring and PSA being the lack of qualified training decoys. At least around here, there seems to be 10 good Schutzhund helpers for every one so-so suit decoy. Obviously weekend seminars or decoy camps are very good, but they're not going to make someone an awesome decoy overnight: not just learn how to do it when everything is going right, but what to do when things aren't going right. 

How can we train decoys up and get them the mileage to read and react to dogs when they are so few and far in between? Especially when many people don't want their dog worked on a green decoy. It's just frustrating seeing half a dozen or so people getting together to train, but then it falls apart because in the end, even though there's a lot you can teach away from one, the dog needs to see them before a trial. Any ideas on how to spread the decoy love?


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## John L'Orange

The point is to achieve objectives related to the dog.

Yet...

I'd imagine decoys think to themselves one of two things: 

Either: "I wear the suit, so that must come with some authority on how to use it, and I'm going to make that very clear!" Probably the most common. Not a bad situation if he's actually competent.

Or: "I'm just wearing the suit. "You need to tell me what you want." This is probably a slightly healthier position for all involved, but it's less common, and pretty useless matched with ignorant handlers.

Then the handlers think one two things:

Either: "It's my dog, and my trial is at stake, so...please just do as I ask." I think most handlers would have a hard time being assertive with this because they don't want to offend a relatively rare commodity (the decoy).

Or: "I have no clue what I'm doing, so please, Mr. Decoy, train my dog for me while I stand around every week doing nothing." This is a great way to act if you want to appease an ego-maniac who craves your dependence, but for someone who actually wants to see handlers do great, this would probably be very frustrating for him.

The problems arise as these perspectives between handler and decoy are grossly mismatched.

So, the solution is for handlers to work hard all week and have legitiate opinions and suggestions based on concrete training experience. The decoys need to train their own freaking dogs to, again, have legitimate opinions and plans based on training a dog...not just dropping coin for some fancy fabric. Oh, and then listen to eachother.

Another problem is women thinking they need to have the same moves and speed as some high speed esquiving machine. No. Women need to buy suits and treat them as what they essentially are...a big, mobile tug reward. All you need is someone who "gets it" and has decent timing. How much barraging and esquiving SHOULD go on during practice? I'd imagine very freaking little.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I see your point, but it wasn't really a decoy/handler mismatch issue (though I've seen plenty of that). I try to be super nice to anyone catching my dog. You will see me at trials (even if it's not my club's trial) passing out water, gatorade, or ice packs to the guys or doing a quick bandaging job for cuts or whatever to make sure they're comfortable, as I know it's a thankless job. 

My question was more of a how do we get guys actually trained up and more experienced without being professional dog trainers or sending them to an expensive (though probably great) training facility for weeks or months to know how to do it. Some are professional dog trainers, but many are not. Basically how do we get more guys (or girls) to "get it?", especially if they don't have another more experienced decoy nearby to mentor them. That's what I see as limiting the spread of PSA and ring: you have these regional hot spots of great clubs and decoys, but it's very hard going from scratch away from these hot spots. My question is, what's the solution?


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## hillel schwartzman

I have only been in PSA for a couple of years now, I started in schutzhund first..Finding a training helper in any dog sport is tough, finding a dedicated training group is even harder..Here would be my answer to you..First find some people who have the passion to train and learn. A good schutzhund group could work. Find a person who is willing to help and learn that will put on a suit...And you now can train.
Host a seminar Possibly Henni Bolster, Gerban Kamphius, or any of the PSA directors..They would be more then willing to help teach you their suit work techniques. Just my 2 cents


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## Maren Bell Jones

Thanks Hill, I likewise started in Schutzhund (and so did most of my club). I'm planning a seminar for this winter at Purina Farms and am certainly open to offers for anyone who'd like to teach one. :grin: We haven't had a really hard time finding people to train with. If you build it, they will come. It's finding a decoy who can catch dogs safely and without stealing from your club funds. Argh... ](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## hillel schwartzman

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Thanks Hill, I likewise started in Schutzhund (and so did most of my club). I'm planning a seminar for this winter at Purina Farms and am certainly open to offers for anyone who'd like to teach one. :grin: We haven't had a really hard time finding people to train with. If you build it, they will come. It's finding a decoy who can catch dogs safely and without stealing from your club funds. Argh... ](*,)](*,)](*,)


I think as a group you have everything then ( less the stealing)...Catching dogs safely is always hard ...Why not for now just train w/ what you have been dealt and do very short frontals and any longer bites make them run aways so the dogs don't get hurt...You might get alot of decoys eating dirt for a while though...lol:lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Yeah, we're basically working each other's dogs now, which is fine. Long sends are sexy for Youtube, but not really needed very often. We also have just mostly piecemeal equipment too (Schutzhund sleeve, puppy sleeve, tugs, but no suit). Just got in a bicep and leg sleeves in today, so I finally can get my dog back on the leg where he prefers.  And sorry, this wasn't meant to be a "woe is me and my poor club" thread. I'm honestly interested in solutions to this problem, as I know we're not the only ones who want to do suit sport who don't live in either 1) California 2) Ohio or 3) the east coast in general.


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## John L'Orange

>>My question is, what's the solution?

Probably that handlers need to get over themselves, in particular.

Some girl (or guy) with her new suit (and the handlers she deals with) ALL need to realize that for this first crop of dogs it's going to be a little bit of a mess, but it'll still be worth it. It'll be the difference between a dog seeing a suit, and not seeing it. There will still be a net benefit even with less than a master.

Training seminars can be overrated and seem to be wasted on many people who'll NEVER "get it". 

Find those people, women included, who can watch Balabanov's video and go "Oh...I get it. It's basically just timing. etc" And allow him or her to be creative." Don't bark in his ear every week: "Oh, but that's not what so-and-so says to do!"

For people who don't want to work their masterpieces on a green decoy...?? Not sure what to say about that. Go elsewhere.

If a dog needs to be expertly "read", well...go do Schutzhund. Apparently there's all sorts of "reading" going on over there.


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## John L'Orange

As far as safe catching...again...over rated. All you need to do is slow the dog down, not speed the decoy up or implant a magical "coordination" chip into her brain. Bungees and tire drags. Bam.


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## Kadi Thingvall

John had some great points regarding the catch-22's that can happen. 

Also, and before any Sch people jump me I realize to be really good at it is difficult, it is easier IMO to be a competent Sch helper than competent in suit work. Simply because of the targeting. When you know the dog is going to one target every time, it's not as difficult to learn to properly catch and absorbe the dog. When the dog has a number of possible targets the difficulty level has increased. Not to mention it's harder to move in a suit than a sleeve. Add to that the skill needed for some of the suit sports for an esquive, and it just got even harder. And yes, I have experience to back up my opinions, having decoyed for PPD, Sch, FR, MR and PSA type protection sports (PSA didn't exist then).

Equipment costs can also factor into it, considering a suit is a lot more than a sleeve. 

Another logistics issue is having dogs to train the decoys with. There are a LOT more retired Sch dogs out there to train Sch helpers with than there are retired FR, MR, PSA, etc dogs to use. In all the sports I see young dogs, or titled but not retired dogs, being used to train decoys, but the numbers are still the same in those categories, a lot more Sch dogs than FR, MR and PSA dogs combined.

Motivation has changed over the years also. When I was decoying, the people I knew did it because they loved working the dogs. Now one of the first things I usually hear is "how much will I get paid?". And if payment isn't comining, in one form or another, many people aren't interested.

I think all of these lead into the reason why you see more Sch helpers than FR/MR/PSA decoys.


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## Maren Bell Jones

John L'Orange said:


> For people who don't want to work their masterpieces on a green decoy...?? Not sure what to say about that. Go elsewhere.


That's exactly what put my husband, who was interested in doing helper work with my first Schutzhund club, off protection sports is that attitude. He was like 23 at the time (5 years ago), 6'3", and a black belt in taekwondo, so pretty athletic, just not any experience working dogs. I overheard some lady with no more than club level dog say she would *never* let an inexperienced decoy work her dog.







They only taught him for like two sessions and then they just kind of stopped. He was showing up regularly, always has a good attitude, and bought new soccer cleats and everything. He's never liked protection sports much since. He now prefers dock diving. #-o Much less dumb drama, he says. :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Kadi Thingvall said:


> John had some great points regarding the catch-22's that can happen.
> 
> Also, and before any Sch people jump me I realize to be really good at it is difficult, it is easier IMO to be a competent Sch helper than competent in suit work. Simply because of the targeting. When you know the dog is going to one target every time, it's not as difficult to learn to properly catch and absorbe the dog. When the dog has a number of possible targets the difficulty level has increased. Not to mention it's harder to move in a suit than a sleeve. Add to that the skill needed for some of the suit sports for an esquive, and it just got even harder. And yes, I have experience to back up my opinions, having decoyed for PPD, Sch, FR, MR and PSA type protection sports (PSA didn't exist then).
> 
> Equipment costs can also factor into it, considering a suit is a lot more than a sleeve.
> 
> Another logistics issue is having dogs to train the decoys with. There are a LOT more retired Sch dogs out there to train Sch helpers with than there are retired FR, MR, PSA, etc dogs to use. In all the sports I see young dogs, or titled but not retired dogs, being used to train decoys, but the numbers are still the same in those categories, a lot more Sch dogs than FR, MR and PSA dogs combined.
> 
> Motivation has changed over the years also. When I was decoying, the people I knew did it because they loved working the dogs. Now one of the first things I usually hear is "how much will I get paid?". And if payment isn't comining, in one form or another, many people aren't interested.
> 
> I think all of these lead into the reason why you see more Sch helpers than FR/MR/PSA decoys.


Agree 100%, Kadi. That's been my (much less) experience as well. Now it becomes what can we do about it...


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## Brian McQuain

I'm attempting to get a PSA club rolling in my area, and so far we have 5 decoys and one dog with a handler usually to busy to train but once or twice a month. Its a good ol time showing up to train with no dogs to work, so I've been traveling around to train in different states to continue to learn and improve. However, my mini schnauzer is probably ready for her PSA1.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Brian, if you're ever near St. Louis, let me know. We have a small club (three adult dogs, one pup), but I kind of like it that way, to be honest. We are very welcome to training with whoever. That's the nice thing about PSA is generally if you're stopping through, people enjoy having visitors to train. In some Schutzhund clubs, it's like "sure, it'll be $25 a session" or "no visitors allowed." Not always, but yeah...


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## Brian McQuain

Thank you! I appreciate that! I unfortunately don't live near you, but I'll get a hold of you next time I head out your way.


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## shawn murace

I decoy for the chicks. 

But in all reality all the above are good points. I've run into all the same issues throughout the years. I'm a sleeve guy but since Tarheel is a few minutes away thats where I send folks who want suit work.


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## Maren Bell Jones

shawn murace said:


> I decoy for the chicks.


That sounds like a great idea for a t-shirt. Trying to get him interested in it again, I told hubby nothing's hotter than a man with a dog hanging off him. Somehow he still likes dock diving more. Oh well. :mrgreen:

And thank you, Brian. I've met quite a few folks off the WDF. Always had a good time and always want to meet more.  Okay, off to training tonight! Going to be in the 50s already, wow.


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## Christopher Smith

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Any ideas on how to spread the decoy love?


People become decoys because they are handlers in the sport. So if they are schutzhund handlers they are going to become schutzhund helpers. Same goes for ringsports or PSA. If you want more decoys you have to create the a fertile place for them to grow, and in most cases it's going to be the local club. If the schutzhund decoys outnumber other decoys 10:1, I bet that schutzhund handlers outnumber other handlers 10:1 too. 

I think the answer is really simple. If you want more decoys make a club and teach people how to decoy.


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## Brian Anderson

There are no decoys in my area outside of a couple sch. guys. Thats why I work dogs with the LEO's. I work their dogs and they work mine so it works out good for all. Now if I need a decoy who specializes in a particular sport I'd be screwed.


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## Megan Bays

Kadi Thingvall said:


> John had some great points regarding the catch-22's that can happen.
> 
> Also, and before any Sch people jump me I realize to be really good at it is difficult, it is easier IMO to be a competent Sch helper than competent in suit work. Simply because of the targeting. When you know the dog is going to one target every time, it's not as difficult to learn to properly catch and absorbe the dog. When the dog has a number of possible targets the difficulty level has increased. Not to mention it's harder to move in a suit than a sleeve. Add to that the skill needed for some of the suit sports for an esquive, and it just got even harder. And yes, I have experience to back up my opinions, having decoyed for PPD, Sch, FR, MR and PSA type protection sports (PSA didn't exist then).
> 
> Equipment costs can also factor into it, considering a suit is a lot more than a sleeve.
> 
> Another logistics issue is having dogs to train the decoys with. There are a LOT more retired Sch dogs out there to train Sch helpers with than there are retired FR, MR, PSA, etc dogs to use. In all the sports I see young dogs, or titled but not retired dogs, being used to train decoys, but the numbers are still the same in those categories, a lot more Sch dogs than FR, MR and PSA dogs combined.
> 
> Motivation has changed over the years also. When I was decoying, the people I knew did it because they loved working the dogs. Now one of the first things I usually hear is "how much will I get paid?". And if payment isn't comining, in one form or another, many people aren't interested.
> 
> I think all of these lead into the reason why you see more Sch helpers than FR/MR/PSA decoys.


+1

Great post Kadi, and some of the problems we have enountered all too often. It is MUCH harder to teach a decoy on young, inexperienced dogs.


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## Brian McQuain

Brian Anderson said:


> There are no decoys in my area outside of a couple sch. guys. Thats why I work dogs with the LEO's. I work their dogs and they work mine so it works out good for all. Now if I need a decoy who specializes in a particular sport I'd be screwed.


 
Are you a LEO?


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## Chris Jones II

Doesn't Rick Rutt use Vulcan on green decoys? That's cool. More people should be as confident in their dogs to let them be used for what they have been trained for.


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## Darryl Richey

Chris,
It's not about being confident with your dog it's about the lack of confidence with a new decoy. I won't let a green decoy work my less experienced dog not just due to the phyisical risks but also due to the training risks. Now if my dog is further along, meaning the training is much further along, I will let a green decoy work him and I'll just set up the "scenario" in a very safe setting for both dog and decoy. 

Darryl


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## Brian Anderson

Brian McQuain said:


> Are you a LEO?


Brian I am not a LEO ... I wouldn't have that job. But thank goodness there are folks that do it.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Megan Bays said:


> Great post Kadi, and some of the problems we have enountered all too often. It is MUCH harder to teach a decoy on young, inexperienced dogs.


One reason I purchased my first FRIII was to train decoys, and since then I've always had at least 1 FRIII, or a dog who knew the FRIII routine, to train decoys and have made them available at club training and also decoy seminars. But every dog I've raised and trained has been used for decoy training at earlier stages in their career also.

Got one right now that I took to a PSA/MR decoy training camp about a month ago so they would have another dog to work, but for the most part he's retired. I offer to bring Mac out, but people don't want to work him LOL

The reality is though, if you are using a young (in training) dog for training decoys, your dog is taking a "hit" in terms of it's own training. Do it enough, and the do may never realize 100% of the potential it had. You can minimize the damage as much as possible, but it's going to happen. The best scenario is young dog on an experienced decoy, and new decoy on an experienced dog.


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## Alison Grubb

Find a decoy who wants to learn and get the experience as much as everyone else wants to work their dogs. Surely there are people out there who want to do it bad enough to be willing to do it without any financial incentive. I know I was/am.


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## Brian Dascalu

A good experienced decoy is there to HELP your dog and NOT break your dog by applying too much pressure at the wrong time. A good decoy can bring the best out in a dog and educate the handler at the same time. A bad decoy can completely ruin a good dog.

Depending where you are in the country, this may be of interest. Specialist K-9 are bringing Cezar Boicu to the US to work with our dogs, police departments and ringsport clubs. Cezar is the winner of an Eastern European Mondio Ring 3 decoy competition in 2010 and is a world class decoy. Cezar will be available for bookings from 27 September to 20 December 2011. If you are interested then contact me either by PM or 321-614-0174

If there is enough interest then we will run decoy classes at our place in Melbourne, FL


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## Maren Bell Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> I think the answer is really simple. If you want more decoys make a club and teach people how to decoy.


It's unfortunately not that simple if you don't have an already experienced dog to teach them. I am not a decoy myself and I've mostly seen the other end of the leash. I've been to decoy seminars as a spectator, I try to listen in when I hear the guys discussing something at a trial, and I'll work puppies, but I don't catch many adult dogs. I had to tonight switching a 3.5 year old GSD from a Schutzhund sleeve to bicep sleeve. Unfortunately I bruise like a peach. :-( Got an ice pack on it right now. :-({|= I also probably should not risk an accidental hand bite since I still need to be able to do surgery on a weekly basis. :???:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maren Bell Jones said:


> It's unfortunately not that simple if you don't have an already experienced dog to teach them.


"Dog" should have read decoy, but it works either way. None of the dogs are past a BH or PDC in our little club yet.


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## Jonathan Katz

This is a nature vs nurture discussion. A decoy is a product of his environment. My club offers free decoy training for all club members. If they want to learn, we want to teach. Having many titled dogs to teach really helps, but I wouldn't be able to train my dog properly without 8 decoys in my club. We have decoys that come from other clubs just to work titled dogs.

For decoy camps to be successful, you need dogs. However, decoy camps are bad for the dogs training. We all bring our dogs out because we want to be able to give the decoys the experience. 

If you want to bring in new decoys, host a decoy seminar. Trust me people will come out of the wood work! Plus, it is super cheap to host a PSA decoy seminar or camp! I'll try to be there with some dogs!


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## Maren Bell Jones

I'll roll out the red carpet just for you, Jon!  I'm planning one for January/February-ish actually.


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## Geoff Empey

We all forget that it is a trifecta not just the dog and decoy that makes up a training team. It also includes the handler in the equation too. I've seen experienced decoys experiment on a green dog to the detriment of the dogs future good workability when a 'green' handler doesn't know how to read the dog during training, or knowing what is happening in the first place. 

Then you have the *trifecta of disaster* which = green handler, green dog, and a green decoy. It usually involves a whip with lots of yelling intertwined with numerous stick hits usually to the face, a used suit they bought for $200 and a DVD they bought off of eBay. :-\"


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## hillel schwartzman

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'll roll out the red carpet just for you, Jon!  I'm planning one for January/February-ish actually.


 Damn Jon!!! You get the red carpet!!! I guess I get the chop Liver...\\/\\/\\/

Great Discussion...
Over the years I have seen too much " I will work my dog only on this helper" All I can suggest is if you can find people that have an open mind they will be able to decoy for you...Find a good actor!!


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Imo- and i know its easy to say for me, cause we have more around- : a green dog is worked on a experienced helper, a experienced dog is worked on a green helper to teach him.

Indeed a green decoy + green dog+ green handler= a disaster to be or will take the willing to do sports out of ( 1 or more) of them.


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## Brett Bowen

I understand the issues here, seems like your club is in a 'which came first the chicken or the egg' scenario. Need experienced dog to teach your decoys but experienced decoys to train your dogs. 

How we've done it at our club (nothing official just seems to be the norm with people that want to decoy), their first bite is on our training directors dog. He's the oldest (7 or 8 I think) and the safest. By safest I mean, a new decoy isn't going to screw him up and he has a PSA 2 so the control is there. Once the new decoy is getting comfortable and starting to improve they move on to the next "safer" dogs and so on. Even then if there's going to be a new skill taught, the training director does it, he won't leave that to a newer decoy that may not fully understand what's trying to be accomplished. Which includes me on some ocassions, sucks because I want to learn, but hey I understand. Me personally, I learned the most about reading a dog and understanding what they are going through by working the younger dogs on rags and puppy sleeves. 

Maren, I'd come train with you, I'm no super duper decoy, but I'll gladly come catch some dogs. I'll be up that way around christmas to see some family, maybe something will work out.


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## Brett Bowen

hillel schwartzman said:


> Damn Jon!!! You get the red carpet!!! I guess I get the chop Liver...\\/\\/\\/
> 
> Great Discussion...
> Over the years I have seen too much " I will work my dog only on this helper" All I can suggest is if you can find people that have an open mind they will be able to decoy for you...Find a good actor!!



I've seen that too. If that's how they want to roll, go ahead. I don't think that's doing anyone any favors in my opinion.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Something else people can do is offer to give a retired dog a nice retirement home in exchange for having a dog to train decoys with. About a year ago I put an FRIII female in a pet home with a friend, but only after I offered her to a number of people who kept talking about how they needed experienced dogs to train decoys with, and didn't have any available. None of them that I felt would give her the home I wanted took me up on the offer, so off to a nice pet home she went. To bad to, because she was perfect for training decoys, solid training, very solid in the work, not phased by newbie mistakes, but a smaller dog with good but not exceptionally fast entries who was less likely to be injured by a newbie, or injure them.

Most of my retired dogs stay with me for the rest of their lives, but I know people who routinely place a retired dog into a good pet home so it can spend the rest of it's life being a pampered house pet. They are out there is people want to look for them.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Argh, forgot about Chaos! Too bad she's on the other side of the state! Wonder if Mary'd let me borrow her for decoy seminars... :wink:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Brett Bowen said:


> I understand the issues here, seems like your club is in a 'which came first the chicken or the egg' scenario. Need experienced dog to teach your decoys but experienced decoys to train your dogs.
> 
> How we've done it at our club (nothing official just seems to be the norm with people that want to decoy), their first bite is on our training directors dog. He's the oldest (7 or 8 I think) and the safest. By safest I mean, a new decoy isn't going to screw him up and he has a PSA 2 so the control is there. Once the new decoy is getting comfortable and starting to improve they move on to the next "safer" dogs and so on. Even then if there's going to be a new skill taught, the training director does it, he won't leave that to a newer decoy that may not fully understand what's trying to be accomplished. Which includes me on some ocassions, sucks because I want to learn, but hey I understand. Me personally, I learned the most about reading a dog and understanding what they are going through by working the younger dogs on rags and puppy sleeves.
> 
> Maren, I'd come train with you, I'm no super duper decoy, but I'll gladly come catch some dogs. I'll be up that way around christmas to see some family, maybe something will work out.


We do have a pretty stable Slovak import GSD who's like 7 years old. He's not highly titled, but he's at least had a bit of mileage. My dog is clear headed and will go for the equipment (no flesh bites, at least not on purpose), but he needs some tuning up. 

Brett (or anyone), please don't be shy. If you all are passing through the St. Louis or mid-Missouri area, let me know and I'd love to work dogs or even just grab a bite and shoot the bull. :wink:


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## Maren Bell Jones

I just took a job to do spay/neuter surgeries at a shelter at the Lake of the Ozarks one day a week to keep my surgery skills sharp. My first time starts on Monday. And this is what my arm looks like (and this was with a bicep sleeve on). Can't wear a long sleeve shirt under scrubs to do surgery. Well, crap, I'm going to get some awkward questions my first day of work... :-\"


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## Thomas Barriano

Maren,

If they ask about the bruises? Just tell them your husband beats you. That's more believable then you got it taking bites from 
dogs


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## Kadi Thingvall

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Argh, forgot about Chaos! Too bad she's on the other side of the state! Wonder if Mary'd let me borrow her for decoy seminars... :wink:


I bet she would. I was wondering if you guys were close enough to make borrowing Chaos a possibility. Mary would probably be thrilled to see Chaos work, and I know Chaos would be thrilled to do it.


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## Brett Bowen

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I just took a job to do spay/neuter surgeries at a shelter at the Lake of the Ozarks one day a week to keep my surgery skills sharp. My first time starts on Monday. And this is what my arm looks like (and this was with a bicep sleeve on). Can't wear a long sleeve shirt under scrubs to do surgery. Well, crap, I'm going to get some awkward questions my first day of work... :-\"


get a neoprene gauntlet (35-40 bucks), they do wonders to help out. There's a couple dogs at our club that we wear two.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I bet she would. I was wondering if you guys were close enough to make borrowing Chaos a possibility. Mary would probably be thrilled to see Chaos work, and I know Chaos would be thrilled to do it.


She's about two hours from me in Kansas City and then it's not quite two hours further to Purina Farms south of St. Louis where we have the seminars. I'll have to ask her if she'd either let me borrow her for the weekend or just drive out for the seminar to watch (I'd love to handle her). Is she a 100% leg dog? 



Brett Bowen said:


> get a neoprene gauntlet (35-40 bucks), they do wonders to help out. There's a couple dogs at our club that we wear two.


Yeah, I've heard gauntlets are the way to go. I'm not sure how many bites I'll be taking from adult dogs, since I'll just will do the fun puppy stuff. That's fun and not very ouchie. :wink: Maybe that's another reason there's less suit decoys. Cause it actually can hurt.


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## Adam Georgitso

Any decoy camps coming to the North Texas area? PSA preferably...


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## Faisal Khan

Typically good decoys do not work shit dogs so such handlers go from club to club and finally find a place who will take their $$ and make em feel good


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## Oscar Mora

First time i ever put on the suit the instructions that were given to me were.....RUN and don't look back i said "OK" lol I got dropped by a mr3 dog that hit the back of my leg. I don't think too many would have returned after that. I stuck around worked dogs for about a yr...( not too many titled dogs) i really felt like i knew what i was doing lol. 

About 1yr ago i moved to a diffrent location forcing me to look for a diffrent club and i found the club where i am at now. Eventhough i told them i had experience and i knew what i was doing the training director gave me specific instructions on what to do. He didn't just let a fr3 dog go at me and put me on my ass. He brought out some cones and taught me from step 1. I still have a lot to learn but being at a club where the TD takes the time to teach you with his own dogs and and gives you the do's and don'ts is PRICELESS! I FOUND OUT HOW MUCH I DIDN'T KNOW! Like i said i still have a lot to learn but am glad that i am at a place where the members are willing to teach me.


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## Thomas Barriano

Oscar Mora said:


> First time i ever put on the suit the instructions that were given to me were.....RUN and don't look back i said "OK" lol I got dropped by a mr3 dog that hit the back of my leg. I don't think too many would have returned after that. I stuck around worked dogs for about a yr...( not too many titled dogs) i really felt like i knew what i was doing lol.
> 
> About 1yr ago i moved to a diffrent location forcing me to look for a diffrent club and i found the club where i am at now. Eventhough i told them i had experience and i knew what i was doing the training director gave me specific instructions on what to do. He didn't just let a fr3 dog go at me and put me on my ass. He brought out some cones and taught me from step 1. I still have a lot to learn but being at a club where the TD takes the time to teach you with his own dogs and and gives you the do's and don'ts is PRICELESS! I FOUND OUT HOW MUCH I DIDN'T KNOW! Like i said i still have a lot to learn but am glad that i am at a place where the members are willing to teach me.


Hey Oscar

Thanks for sticking it out and I'm glad you're now with a club with a TRAINING director. It's sad that when someone volunteers to put on a sleeve or suit. Some people find it more
FUN to fuk with them then to train them? Then everyone is surprised at the decoy shortage......duh


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## Chris Jones II

Darryl Richey said:


> Chris,
> It's not about being confident with your dog it's about the lack of confidence with a new decoy. I won't let a green decoy work my less experienced dog not just due to the phyisical risks but also due to the training risks. Now if my dog is further along, meaning the training is much further along, I will let a green decoy work him and I'll just set up the "scenario" in a very safe setting for both dog and decoy.
> 
> Darryl


Then we agree. I swear half the time people come at me like they disagree with me but they are saying the exact same thing with embellishments.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Maren Bell Jones said:


> She's about two hours from me in Kansas City and then it's not quite two hours further to Purina Farms south of St. Louis where we have the seminars. I'll have to ask her if she'd either let me borrow her for the weekend or just drive out for the seminar to watch (I'd love to handle her). Is she a 100% leg dog?


She is primarily a leg dog, but she'll take upper body and is solid on a Sch sleeve also.


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## Howard Gaines III

Not everyone wants to risk injury in working power dogs. The point of green decoys is good, but seasoned ones can also mess up dogs and do so without the handler even knowing! I think for small jobs, green decoys are better. They WANT TO LEARN, soon brush away the fear factors, and slowly get into the mode of not just catching a dog...*but reading the signs.*

The economy has lots to do with it. Since many work for free, it also goes to the thought, "When does my dog get worked?" Using men, women, and older kids in a mini clinic BEFORE training might be a way of inviting more interest in the ranks. Showing the decoy prey moves, then defense moves, and of course the proper sleeve positions in a 30 minute session might help. 

Take the teeth out of the dog and more will step up...:mrgreen:


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## Zakia Days

John L'Orange said:


> As far as safe catching...again...over rated. All you need to do is slow the dog down, not speed the decoy up or implant a magical "coordination" chip into her brain. Bungees and tire drags. Bam.



Sorry, but I have to disagree w/ you here. Safe catches are VERY important in my book. I've seen people (not just green, but experienced) get nailed! Both dogs and decoys and it is not a pretty picture. Also, someone else mentioned the general rule is green decoy experienced dog, green dog experienced decoy. Again I've seen some good dogs messed up w/ bad decoying. If you can train in optimal conditions more power to you. Your group should try and get to "good" decoy seminars w/ experienced decoys. Someone mentioned Gerben Kemphius. He is excellent. Isai Rodriguez is awesome. Herve Mavunga, excellent. They are all experts at reading the dogs' body language/behaviors and working to achieve good, confident behavior concerning bite work. If you are able to either invite any of them to your own or attend any seminars they are attending, get there. There are several other experienced and knowledgeable decoys out there. Good luck w/ it all.


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## John L'Orange

I'll repeat the important part...if you slow the dog down, safe catches are lot easier. I said over-rated (the mad skillz of high-speed decoys), but not irrelevant.

I'm talking about people of competent mind who have goof-ball bodies and can't be reasonably expected to mimic someone like Mavuange TO ANY REASONABLE DEGREE. Those are the people who _do have options._


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## Geoff Empey

John L'Orange said:


> I'll repeat the important part...if you slow the dog down, safe catches are lot easier. I said over-rated (the mad skillz of high-speed decoys), but not irrelevant.
> 
> I'm talking about people of competent mind who have goof-ball bodies and can't be reasonably expected to mimic someone like Mavuange TO ANY REASONABLE DEGREE. Those are the people who _do have options._


I have to agree with you John here. We all have _options_ but at what cost to the dog. Again the techniques of using a tire or bungee still needs to be taught properly from the get go to both decoy and dog. Just because the dog is slowed down still doesn't mean both decoy and dog have proper targeting and technique. 

I've seen it hundreds of times even in my own training just because your dog is biting, doesn't mean it is learning anything. That is the whole point of having a training decoy in the first place. IMO is to teach the dog the skills needed to trial successfully. With the experience I have had it is safe to say that you can do it without a hi-end decoy but someone in your training circle really has to understand how to bring out what is needed using whatever tools that are at the groups disposal. 

About 3 years ago we worked with a Level 3 decoy from France for a week his name is Eric Issarte he decoyed the 2008 Coupe. FWIW he was all perplexed by all the gadgets and electronics that everyone over here was using. The one thing that really stuck with me was him saying if you can't train a dog with a ball and regular collar is it sure isn't going to get any better by using other methods, him meaning it is all about the trainers circle of knowledge and experience, not the tools at hand.


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## John L'Orange

Moderators,

Is there something happening wherein everyone else is reading things under my name which I both did not write and cannot see?

They seem to be refuting someone else entirely.


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## John L'Orange

> he was all perplexed by all the gadgets and electronics that everyone over here was using.


UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER! LOL

http://vodpod.com/watch/2907582-unfrozen-caveman-lawyer-video-by-hannahpittman-photobucket


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## Erin Suggett

John L'Orange said:


> As far as safe catching...again...over rated. All you need to do is slow the dog down, not speed the decoy up or implant a magical "coordination" chip into her brain. *Bungees* and *tire drags*. Bam.


Bungee work is not something you see green decoys being asked to do very often. Bungee work is usually a very important element in many training programs with both green _and_ top level experienced dogs. It is also very risky/dangerous because a million and one things can go wrong in the blink of an eye...literally, from training set backs to injuries. I've seen decoys, dogs and even handlers suffer severe injuries while doing bungee work. And all of them at different levels of experience. I know when I used to decoy, the bungee work always raised my hairs a bit. But I also understand that we all have to start somewhere/somehow. And if you want become a great training decoy, the bungee will be waiting for you somewhere down the road.

On the other hand...I do agree with the tire drags in many situations. Tire dragging is much safer than bungee work. Especially if all you are looking to do is slow down the dog...works well for teaching technique for both the dog_ and _decoy, too. Tire dragging also helps to build speed in the dog's entry and gives them a nice work out! Plus, you can add weight to a tire if a new decoy or TD feels more comfortable slowing the dog down even more. The handler can get a nice work out too if they elect to drag their tire back to the line of the departure after each attack. I've done that many times...it's great! 

I'm not trying to be an Internent Trainer here...just giving my 2 cents/experiences in some of what is being discussed.

By the way...I think this is a GREAT thread!

Wax on...wax off.

One final note:

The handler should always remember to thank the decoys.
The decoy should always remember to thank the dogs.


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## Brett Bowen

I like the tire drag idea, hadn't thought of that. Might be hard with lines and ropes going everywhere. Especially for a new decoy that needs to really concentrate on what they are doing. I was that way (still am on some things) I constantly got myself and the dog hung up in lines. Nothing more frustrating than trying to fix a line when a dog is on ya. 

Other ideas though I just thought of, shorten the sends. That way the dog can't get a full head of steam if they are only going 10-15 feet. or go to a slick floor. Good for the dog and it slows things down too.


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## James Downey

Brett Bowen said:


> I like the tire drag idea, hadn't thought of that. Might be hard with lines and ropes going everywhere. Especially for a new decoy that needs to really concentrate on what they are doing. I was that way (still am on some things) I constantly got myself and the dog hung up in lines. Nothing more frustrating than trying to fix a line when a dog is on ya.
> 
> Other ideas though I just thought of, shorten the sends. That way the dog can't get a full head of steam if they are only going 10-15 feet. or go to a slick floor. Good for the dog and it slows things down too.


I agree with about the lines...another option is having the dog run up a hill with the helper at the top. This way the dog gets a workout...you can still teach the dog to run a distance, and it can slow the dog down.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I do this already with my dog for dock diving condition and it's given him a nice shoulder set, I must say. :lol: Trouble is, he already goes up even a steep hill pretty quick. What I'm doing now with the two guys in our club interested in decoying is mostly practicing things really close, like a bark and hold with no sends or very very short flees on the back of the calf (like 5-10 feet max), so I can be right there to adjust and correct since my dog is not uber experienced either. My dog is already 4.5 years old and I've come to grips with the fact that he'll never be as good as he could have been with a better foundation, but that's okay. We're having fun and playing it safe so no one gets hurt. *knocks on wood*


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## Maren Bell Jones

Erin Suggett said:


> One final note:
> 
> The handler should always remember to thank the decoys.
> The decoy should always remember to thank the dogs.


Definitely! I had taken an occasional bite in the past on a Schutzhund sleeve, but now that I've taken a few more on a suit bicep and leg sleeve, I appreciate them all the more. \\/


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## Oscar Mora

Erin Suggett said:


> Bungee work is not something you see green decoys being asked to do very often. Bungee work is usually a very important element in many training programs with both green _and_ top level experienced dogs. It is also very risky/dangerous because a million and one things can go wrong in the blink of an eye...literally, from training set backs to injuries. I've seen decoys, dogs and even handlers suffer severe injuries while doing bungee work. And all of them at different levels of experience. I know when I used to decoy, the bungee work always raised my hairs a bit. But I also understand that we all have to start somewhere/somehow. And if you want become a great training decoy, the bungee will be waiting for you somewhere down the road.
> 
> On the other hand...I do agree with the tire drags in many situations. Tire dragging is much safer than bungee work. Especially if all you are looking to do is slow down the dog...works well for teaching technique for both the dog_ and _decoy, too. Tire dragging also helps to build speed in the dog's entry and gives them a nice work out! Plus, you can add weight to a tire if a new decoy or TD feels more comfortable slowing the dog down even more. The handler can get a nice work out too if they elect to drag their tire back to the line of the departure after each attack. I've done that many times...it's great!
> 
> I'm not trying to be an Internent Trainer here...just giving my 2 cents/experiences in some of what is being discussed.
> 
> By the way...I think this is a GREAT thread!
> 
> Wax on...wax off.
> 
> One final note:
> 
> The handler should always remember to thank the decoys.
> The decoy should always remember to thank the dogs.


Thanks for helping me out and letting me practice on your retired girl. =]


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## Brett Bowen

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I do this already with my dog for dock diving condition and it's given him a nice shoulder set, I must say. :lol: Trouble is, he already goes up even a steep hill pretty quick. What I'm doing now with the two guys in our club interested in decoying is mostly practicing things really close, like a bark and hold with no sends or very very short flees on the back of the calf (like 5-10 feet max), so I can be right there to adjust and correct since my dog is not uber experienced either. My dog is already 4.5 years old and I've come to grips with the fact that he'll never be as good as he could have been with a better foundation, but that's okay. We're having fun and playing it safe so no one gets hurt. *knocks on wood*


No fun unless you get a little banged up.  As long as no one looses a finger, eye, a bicep, calf, or anything that should be permanently attached, that's a successful training session.


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## Maren Bell Jones

True...though for me, I bruise too easily, so I will mostly stick to a Schutzhund sleeve or puppies if I need to decoy dogs, I think. ;-) Had to wear an Under Armour shirt that went to my elbows under my scrubs on Monday so I didn't get awkward questions while I was doing surgeries. :-\" It's just about gone now though!


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## Erin Suggett

Oscar Mora said:


> Thanks for helping me out and letting me practice on your retired girl. =]


Anytime, Oscar!! And thank _YOU_ for working her...she still loves it and gives it her all!!


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## Geoff Empey

Brett Bowen said:


> I like the tire drag idea, hadn't thought of that. Might be hard with lines and ropes going everywhere. Especially for a new decoy that needs to really concentrate on what they are doing. I was that way (still am on some things) I constantly got myself and the dog hung up in lines. Nothing more frustrating than trying to fix a line when a dog is on ya.
> 
> Other ideas though I just thought of, shorten the sends. That way the dog can't get a full head of steam if they are only going 10-15 feet. or go to a slick floor. Good for the dog and it slows things down too.


We use short sends all the time especially doing pivot work and return d'esquive training with barrels and cones. You can work a few things here. The departure line with eye contact and recalls after the send. 

My experience with the tire drag hasn't been that positive for training specific things. Though it really works for conditioning and hard and fast entries. The tire doesn't compare to a bungee with a training decoy who knows how to use it though. 

Both require the same amount of cordage on the dog. One on the harness with some sort of easy way for the decoy to disconnect from the bungee/tire and a 1m leash on a correction collar on the dog.


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## Connie Sutherland

John L'Orange said:


> Moderators,
> 
> Is there something happening wherein everyone else is reading things under my name which I both did not write and cannot see?
> 
> They seem to be refuting someone else entirely.




"John L'Orange" is no longer with us.

"They seem to be refuting someone else entirely" ..... could be.


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## Angie Stark

Brian McQuain said:


> I'm attempting to get a PSA club rolling in my area, and so far we have 5 decoys and one dog with a handler usually to busy to train but once or twice a month. Its a good ol time showing up to train with no dogs to work, so I've been traveling around to train in different states to continue to learn and improve. However, my mini schnauzer is probably ready for her PSA1.


wow, usually the other way around. LOL. At least if all 5 of you have dogs, you've got 5 to work. 

please, please, please...trial your mini schnauzer in psa!!! OMG...and video it. I sooo want to do it with a weener dog or a min pin. lmao


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## Peter Cho

I have decoyed in ring, psa, and now Schutzhund. My wife says my body looks like a scar poster of a junkie. Love that POWER and intensity in an animal, and I helped bring that out!

To be frank, why would a true decoy work with a bunch of people who cannot in turn provide qualitydecoy work for them......or provide EXCELLENT experienced spotting and coaching? That is why the whole club dynamics is important. Training with people who makes you better, setting expectations of excellence.

a young dog, I need PERFECT helper work. I would never use a helper with minimal experience.
A new helper learns on the most experienced dog. Again the club is important since you have to find a club with this level of dogs to learn effectively and MOST IMPORTANTLY, a training director of a club that decoyed and handled to high level.

Finding a training decoy is hard because it takes years and years and years to learn and feel/read. Rare is a person whose passion for training is so intense that he knowingly ventures into an activity that will get him bitten, sooner or later, to learn both side of the leash. 

That is why there is not enough decoys.


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## Jeff Batiste

Great post Peter.. I do a little Helper work in Schutzhund so I cant speak to PSA or FR but do want to get peoples opinion on one aspect expanding a little on what the prior post got at....

What does the helper get out of doing helper work? 

Now let me start with my motivations: I do it because I enjoy it, I enjoy training dogs and want to learn how to train dogs to bring the best out of them whatever that may be... I enjoy being a training/helper far more than being a trial helper thats just me. I am fortunate enough to be in a club environment where I have really experienced people with high level dogs and when I work thier dogs both the dog and I improve (hopefully . So for me its mutually beneficial... exactly what Peter described...

Now for someone that belongs to a club with mediocre dogs, inexperienced handlers and maybe and an OK training director that did a club trial 20 years ago what do they get out of it.....

Who works their dog?
Do their dog suffer?
When is thier training a priority?
Who wants to deal with a bunch of cry baby handlers that think thier crappy dog is a beast and its really a p.o.s where they helper is likely to get blamed for faults?
Who wants the added stress of having everyone depend on them?

Please handlers get over yourselves especially those that have never even put on a sleeve..... I agree it's not the best thing for an inexperienced helper to work a green dog; however you can teach a helper, using the helper for what he could do and filling in where he was weak with a more experienced helper.... We all gotta start somewhere... 

SO if you come across someone that is committed, athletic and coachable dont be so worried about your green dog. If YOU know what you're doing you can train both the dog and the helper, definently harder but certainly doable.... and then we might have more trainig helpers around...


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## Joby Becker

Great post Jeff...


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