# Drives - video compilation



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

In another thread I mentioned that it might be useful to put together a collection of videos showing different activities to encourage discussion on what drive the dog is expressing and how the membership might rate the level of drive demonstrated (extreme, high, above average, average, etc).

Using a fairly random starting point, I have inserted a video below. 

*Video Summary*

Object, dog tethered. Her initial reaction to the object, after movement, and upon possession.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtldukL4GC0&feature=youtu.be

Feel free to comment on what you see or rather what you don't see and would like to if evaluating a dog for (whatever).


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jody (or anyone, of course), is this a good clip for separating activity from drive, as mentioned here http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f28/lower-drive-mediocre-dogs-25111/#post358947 ?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Intense drive for a lot of things you may train with a toy/tug/ball/etc, Obedience and bite work come to mind. For obedience eval I'd like to see the dog try and return it to the person. For bite work I don't mind the dog wanting to possess the object.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I do see the tail stiffen and her looking out over the object. Seems she just might want to keep it for sure. 8-[
Marker train for the out! :grin: :wink:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay for all of 40 seconds it showed sustained interest and desire for the brush thing withheld from her. For 3 seconds, she held it between her paws. So would you have got more responses if it were some sort of bite work training aid; if the video were longer; if they coudl see a bite? For me, she shows some object drive for 40 seconds. Doesn't really apply for what I do--stock work. However, if you could show me some attention obedience with that object in motion, then that would give me an idea of some training aspects with stock.

T


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay for all of 40 seconds it showed sustained interest and desire for the brush thing withheld from her. For 3 seconds, she held it between her paws. So would you have got more responses if it were some sort of bite work training aid; if the video were longer; if they coudl see a bite? For me, she shows some object drive for 40 seconds. Doesn't really apply for what I do--stock work. However, if you could show me some attention obedience with that object in motion, then that would give me an idea of some training aspects with stock.
> 
> T


If it helps to clarify a bit I'll explain a few things.

I purposely chose a nonstandard object and wanted to keep the video short. I mean, so far it already appears that I wasted my time putting that together so why would I bother to invest a bunch of time into something that was probably going to go over like a turd in a punch bowl. 

But I also said as much from the onset (that the content might leave a lot to be desired). It was just to be a short video and not necessarily of anything specific because I was hoping the discussion would evolve from there. I did it deliberately hoping/expecting that it would draw out some criticism.

That's also why I asked for the responders to tell me what they see or don't see or would like to see if evaluating a dog for (whatever). I chose an object to see if anyone would start a discussion based upon what they saw. Then if they had any thoughts about what they saw using this video as an example to say yes (X drive) it's present, this is why, and it's considered to be low, average, etc. Or even, this shows nothing I'd rather see...

I can make more, that's certainly not an issue but I will not be making any videos that contain aspects of obedience.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think it gets to the heart of WHAT is it a person looks for in choosing a dog. What you plan to do with the dog would dictate what you are looking for. So I think for a start [Will, Bob, Joby, Connie, Thomas, Dave, Rick--to name a few] does this video tell you anything about the dog that you need to make say, a purchasing decison--not that she's for sell. Reminds me of video I received a few years ago--dog back tied and snarling and frantically lunging for an object [rag]. At the time, I thought sooooooo, its nutso over a rag. Doesn't begin to tell me what the dog is character-wise or how it is to live with.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, I'm sort of prejudiced by the prior discussion of the dog but for ME, she's a tad OCD in the possession department. She actually wants a brush of some sort. It doesn't seem to matter much that's its moving but the movement could have triggered this. So is there some sort of recognizable "drive" here or is this behavior meaningless? Come on, Nicole isn't sensitive.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ev4RuZayQgA

Okay, I'm hijacking this one from another thread. This is a Lubeck puppy. What drives do you see and at what level--mediocre, adequate, extreme?


T


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'll give it a shot 

what i saw :
- extreme desire/drive to get an object, built up by keeping it out of reach, and then satisfied by giving it to the dog at which point the video stops. this would be a good drill to build possessiveness if that were the training goal because that is what i see being conditioned in the short clip. but that probably wasn't the intention of doing this, right ?
- if it is an eval, would need to see the reaction after possession. can it be taken from the dog without conflict ? based on what i see, probably not, but that would be the point OB becomes important and necessary
- some handler interaction after the dog got what it wanted would tell me a lot more
- i don't see a lot of prey drive being tested since the object was not moving much. dog seemed just as driven to get it whether it was stationary or being kicked
- all in all, not the way i would work with this dog unless i was building possessiveness, which looks to me like a potential problem rather than a weak point that needs to be built up


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and i would add, in terms of showing prey drive, i would imagine the dog would have wanted it even more if it was constantly moving, so i'll go out on a limb and say it has high prey drive too 

next vid please


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> .............*Doesn't begin to tell me what the dog is character-wise or how it is to live with.*....
> 
> Okay, I'm sort of prejudiced by the prior discussion of the dog but for ME, she's a tad OCD in the possession department. She actually wants a brush of some sort. It doesn't seem to matter much that's its moving but the movement could have triggered this. So is there some sort of recognizable "drive" here or is this behavior meaningless? Come on, Nicole isn't sensitive...
> 
> ...


I guess that depends on what you view as character traits, but it should at bare minimum..begin to tell you something about what the character might be be, and should give a little info on what the do might be like to live with...

I am just guessing, but I imagine this is not just a brush thing..guessing that the dog would react the same way with a wide variety of things, although maybe the brush is a favorite, cant say.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

as with most short clips, it is easy to stray topic off from what the OP is asking for, but to try and stay on topic, i'd also say if i was simply evaluating drive i would prob not tether the dog, since that adds a frustration factor that may cloud the issue you are trying to evaluate....

pretty obvious the dog has "hi drive" for an object, but the type of drive is not as clear to me ... yet 

prob need more than a 45sec clip ... maybe 

but the "other" comments that have been provided do seem relevant


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would call the dog intense for the short video. Also what Rick said. How does the dog react with the handler concerning the object it has?
T, my "guess" is that marker training for a tug would work well for the dog. Not saying it wouldn't need a firm hand when necessary.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Duly noted. Those who wanted a longer clip and something else to work with, here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU5uCg4gfa0


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

NICE nose work! Easy to read when in scent. Not distracted by the camera work close to her other then one time late in the video she walked over to you? and then went right back to work.
Some dogs are a little slower working high areas if they haven't done it before.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm out of the loop, I don't know what is this previous thread that is being mentioned. 

RE the vid, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking but if it's how others would evaluate a dog when watching this. I like the drive, and once that's established, what's missing for me is what happens after the dog gets the object. Does she become stupid possessive of it, does she attempt to destroy it or just holds it, does she give it up to a person if some one walks up or does she show aggression or guarding, does she attempt to retrieve it to handler, does she posess it for a short bit then leaves it and looks for the next thing or a person, and what happens when you introduce a second object when she still has the first.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> I'm out of the loop, I don't know what is this previous thread that is being mentioned.
> 
> RE the vid, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking but if it's how others would evaluate a dog when watching this. I like the drive, and once that's established, what's missing for me is what happens after the dog gets the object. Does she become stupid possessive of it, does she attempt to destroy it or just holds it, does she give it up to a person if some one walks up or does she show aggression or guarding, does she attempt to retrieve it to handler, does she posess it for a short bit then leaves it and looks for the next thing or a person, and what happens when you introduce a second object when she still has the first.


Hi Marta, I'll shoot you a PM.


----------



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Just for fun and as they say"out on a limb" thought prey drive is apparent in this young DJT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaKHXH0Se1s&feature=related


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> NICE nose work! Easy to read when in scent. Not distracted by the camera work close to her other then one time late in the video she walked over to you? and then went right back to work.
> Some dogs are a little slower working high areas if they haven't done it before.


I think the total time on the search was about 7 minutes. I trimmed out the parts where she left the primary search area as I knew people wouldn't stick with the video if it ran too long. As it is most people seem to tire pretty quickly of search based videos. Anyway, she was pretty young (7 mo) when this was filmed and it was the first time she was ever put on something outside of a fairly basic search. Honestly, how she arrived at finding it given her experience level/age surprised me. 

Maybe this isn't anything unusual for a dog her age. It was for me because I didn't have a lot of exposure to dogs doing this kind of work and I knew I was taking a bit of a risk setting this one up. The wind was blowing at the culvert which I assume is what led her to go up and over and back through. 

I never attempted this with my mastiff but now I am tempted to go back out there and repeat it with her. I have my doubts she'd sustain the hunt especially since the last time I worked with her was a few weeks ago and previous to that it had been a year. The mastiff is pretty methodical and accurate but seemingly only for a short period of time when searching for objects. I simply haven't found her willingness to sustain it to the same degree that the dutch does.

Anyway, enough of that. I don't really see the likelihood of anyone else taking their dog out and try to duplicate what I showed in the last video so I have a feeling this thread is going to come to a close pretty quickly. If I had a few of my own dogs to to better demonstrate what I was hoping to I would just put it together myself. 

I'd start by consulting a few people who test dogs to gather a sample of standard tests that would be done with each dog. From there, I'd build upon that as I described earlier. I understand at the end of the day it tells you nothing about the total dog. But then, I never intended for that to be the objective of this project. If I wanted that I'd make the dog for sale and then take her out for people who might be interested in testing her or keep her local and have her tested accordingly.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You could post this in the "Detection" section. That may bring out different viewers.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I guess that depends on what you view as character traits, but it should at bare minimum..begin to tell you something about what the character might be be, and should give a little info on what the do might be like to live with...
> 
> I am just guessing, but I imagine this is not just a brush thing..guessing that the dog would react the same way with a wide variety of things, although maybe the brush is a favorite, cant say.


What part of charcter do you see with a dog back tied barking/lunging for a brush for 45 seconds? And okay the prey/possession will carry over to other objects---AND???

T


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> You could post this in the "Detection" section. That may bring out different viewers.


It could but that would entirely defeat the purpose of why I started this thread. That said, the Pipeline video has been posted here 2 times previously and it's rarely generated much discussion. It's either not interesting to people or the work demonstrates nothing out of the ordinary for a dog that age to do. For all I know, this is entirely typical.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Edward Weiss said:


> Just for fun and as they say"out on a limb" thought prey drive is apparent in this young DJT
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaKHXH0Se1s&feature=related


Good lord. No takers on this one???? What does it tell you about the dog? Still no comments from the folks who are all about "drives." Ed I'd probably put this one in the nutso category. An inanimate object hanging from a tree, my dogs wouldn't even notice. Nothing would be that interesting. Kinda makes you wonder if the dog had been worked with the tug---hence the desire and interest before they hung it in the tree or if it just walk by, saw it and by golly, he had to have it.


T


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I guess that depends on what you view as character traits, but it should at bare minimum..begin to tell you something about what the character might be be, and should give a little info on what the do might be like to live with...
> 
> I am just guessing, but I imagine this is not just a brush thing..guessing that the dog would react the same way with a wide variety of things, although maybe the brush is a favorite, cant say.


Joby, I will answer those questions for you since I know this thread is going to crash and burn:

1. I get the question a lot about how she is to live with. Pretty easy. When she's off, she's off or at least to the degree I expect her to be.

2. It's not her favorite brush (she's not allowed to have brushes) but since it's one of those things she's not supposed to have that makes it higher value to her. Anything she gets that I decide I want and won't return immediately becomes a wonderful treasure to her.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Joby, I will answer those questions for you since I know this thread is going to crash and burn:
> 
> 1. I get the question a lot about how she is to live with. Pretty easy. When she's off, she's off or at least to the degree I expect her to be.
> 
> 2. It's not her favorite brush (she's not allowed to have brushes) but since it's one of those things she's not supposed to have that makes it higher value to her. Anything she gets that I decide I want and won't return immediately becomes a wonderful treasure to her.


But see, that's not the point of the video. Its what you can see from whats displayed. I'd love to know what Joby sees. For me, I'd have to ask Nicole about the other categories because I don't see them here---doesn't mean they don't exist or are negative. This is one section/category of the dog's brain. Khira has pITA animal prey. BUT, she has stock sense and loads of other good qualties that mostly make me forget the PITA one.

Its about what you see in the video. I'm dying to here ANY thoughs on the GSD puppy.

T


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Good lord. No takers on this one???? What does it tell you about the dog? Still no comments from the folks who are all about "drives." Ed I'd probably put this one in the nutso category. An inanimate object hanging from a tree, my dogs wouldn't even notice. Nothing would be that interesting. Kinda makes you wonder if the dog had been worked with the tug---hence the desire and interest before they hung it in the tree or if it just walk by, saw it and by golly, he had to have it.
> 
> 
> T


Not unusual for a lot of the smaller working terriers. Tenacity is the word most often used.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> For me, I'd have to ask Nicole about the other categories because I don't see them here---doesn't mean they don't exist or are negative.
> 
> Its about what you see in the video. I'm dying to here ANY thoughs on the GSD puppy.
> 
> T


Yes, so would I. About Wasabi, I posted another video of her. Did you watch it? There was at least something worth discussion in that one or maybe there wasn't?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The GSD puppy is exactly what I saw in Thunder at 4-5 wks old.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The GSD puppy is exactly what I saw in Thunder at 4-5 wks old.


LOL Dang Bob you are kind of a master at being vague aren't you? Why not describe what you are seeing in the context of original topic of this thread?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The retrieve at that age shows a willingness to work with a human. I've always used that when selecting a puppy. At the time I was looking for a SAR dog so I didn't lift him off the ground but he was just as intense when chasing a flirt pole. How hard they try and how long shows a bit of character and drive. I don't want to see a half assed chase and then leave it because they weren't immediately successful.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

There we go Bob, thank you.

I'm veering off here but I got a number of questions/replies about how the dog outs. First I will go record in say that there was a problem that has since been addressed. It took a while to get there but thankfully I had an open minded TD and a few WDF members who were willing to listen and give me some direction.

I haven't worked her in a while but the last time we did the work was roughly similar to this but we purposely added a degree of fight to the work. I chose to not post that video because it's a bit out of context for people who don't fully understand why the dog is being worked in that manner.

Anyway, something else to look at for those interested. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFwv8I_jrzk


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> The retrieve at that age shows a willingness to work with a human. I've always used that when selecting a puppy. At the time I was looking for a SAR dog so I didn't lift him off the ground but he was just as intense when chasing a flirt pole. How hard they try and how long shows a bit of character and drive. I don't want to see a half assed chase and then leave it because they weren't immediately successful.


I thought about you when I looked at the video. Looks like an upbeat, happy little puppy. I have a few more scenarios I'd like to see him in but its a very appealing puppy to me. I guess this thread has really driven home for me that I don't really look at "drives." I look for confidence--environmentally and people-wise. Herding instincts are usually there. And for all the talk from the drives folks, none of them are willing to comment on the "drives" of the three dogs in the videos posted. With the Lubeck puppy, he has ball and retreive drive and great interaction with the person and seems to have a good grip if I remember. This makes me want to see more of him in other contexts. But is its mediocre, average or extreme drive? 


T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> The GSD puppy is exactly what I saw in Thunder at 4-5 wks old.


Okay, I got a visual for my dream dog.

T


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" But is its mediocre, average or extreme drive?"


I would look at it as above average/excellent. Extreme, to ME, means over the top and a balancing act to keep it under control. That pup is perfect (FOR ME..and you :-D) in what I see in the clip which is why I have Thunder. :-D:-D :wink:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> " But is its mediocre, average or extreme drive?"
> 
> 
> I would look at it as above average/excellent. Extreme, to ME, means over the top and a balancing act to keep it under control. That pup is perfect (FOR ME..and you :-D) in what I see in the clip which is why I have Thunder. :-D:-D :wink:


Agreed!!!! I really LIKED him. It was hard for me to even think about "drives." I saw other things. Someone sent me the extreme prey possession back tie scene and my thoughts were sooooooo. I like to see the interaction with the person and the ball/retrieve is always the gravy. 

T


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

latest video

Nice work on the B&H. The dog shows sense in that it outs with a little help and doesn't loose it's head when the decoy is standing still. Even when the decoy walks into the dog it doesn't loose control. When the threat is displayed it happily engages. 
Obviously this it a Schutzhund type routine and other bite work may require different behaviors from the dog in this scenario.
Young dog that is easily worked with!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Duly noted. Those who wanted a longer clip and something else to work with, here you go.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU5uCg4gfa0


 
Okay, I'd like to see input from some of the scent people but given where it was, I would have expected her to find it much sooner but don't know who it got there and how the tunnel influences the scent etc. However, that said, I'd say she has pretty committed hunt to go along with that possession. There is a thread somewhere where Kadi I think was saying that you don't necessarity get both. It seems logically if they have strong possession they have hunt but I think the conclusion was that they don't go hand in hand. But she appears to have both. Is this one of the ones out of Carlos? If so, was it metal?

T


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, I'd like to see input from some of the scent people but given where it was, I would have expected her to find it much sooner but don't know who it got there and how the tunnel influences the scent etc.
> 
> Is this one of the ones out of Carlos? If so, was it metal?
> 
> T


That does certainly illuminate the questions I have had about that scenario all along. Should she have found it sooner? Is the way she approached this problematic, indicative of inexperience, etc?

She stayed with the hunt till the end and found what I thought to be an interesting way to solve that problem. Maybe not the best way but an interesting one that I didn't anticipate.

Given what I had seen from her previously, I am fairly certain she would have found it much sooner if the wind had not been blowing into the culvert.

Oh and yes, she is a Carlos daughter. No, it wasn't metal but she hunts for that too.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> That does certainly illuminate the questions I have had about that scenario all along. Should she have found it sooner? Is the way she approached this problematic, indicative of inexperience, etc?
> 
> She stayed with the hunt till the end and found what I thought to be an interesting way to solve that problem. Maybe not the best way but an interesting one that I didn't anticipate.
> 
> ...


I haven't seen enough scent work and environment [tunnel], how it got there, experience could all could be a factor with the time. However, regardless, what I like is the commitment to the job until its done. She also had a certain calm about her which is something I like as well. That usually does it for me. When everyone else is looking at drive, I'm looking at commitment and approach. 

T


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> how it got thereT


I don't know if you noticed but watch her work the rock surface. From her behavior can "see" how far up the footsteps go, from there it was thrown into the culvert. 

In the video I put up of 60 mile compilation there is a clip in it where you see her do that as well as she travels up a tree to find the object.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> There we go Bob, thank you.
> 
> I'm veering off here but I got a number of questions/replies about how the dog outs. First I will go record in say that there was a problem that has since been addressed. It took a while to get there but thankfully I had an open minded TD and a few WDF members who were willing to listen and give me some direction.
> 
> ...


Okay, this is a QUESTION, why back the dog up at all or back her up after the out command? For me out isn't the issue here but I don't understand the point of this training. Hope someone can explain it.


T


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm thinking the best person to answer that question is the guy working the dog. I can put you in touch with him if you like. I realize the thread is slowly diverging away from the original topic but thanks to you and Bob, at least there was some related discussion tonight that touched upon the videos posted. 

I'd really prefer if you were to start a new thread if you want to talk about the training that's taking place within.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

That's fine, I'd love to ask him. But for me, this could relate to the drives aspect of it. Shoot me a PM of his contact info. It would have been nice if the protection trainers could elaborate on what they see in terms of drives. Here we re looking at aspects of prey/defense?


T


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

What GSD pup? I see a jagged terrier?


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> What GSD pup? I see a jagged terrier?


Try this.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/359100-post9.html


----------



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Good lord. No takers on this one???? What does it tell you about the dog? Still no comments from the folks who are all about "drives." Ed I'd probably put this one in the nutso category. An inanimate object hanging from a tree, my dogs wouldn't even notice. Nothing would be that interesting. Kinda makes you wonder if the dog had been worked with the tug---hence the desire and interest before they hung it in the tree or if it just walk by, saw it and by golly, he had to have it.
> 
> 
> T


Thanks for noticing ! In a more serious note Jagd T are truly evidence of the breeders art. 
In their case, essentially a half dozen breeders were determined to breed a fearless, relentless hunting machine. They culled ruthlessly(Germany in the 30's) tested assiduously,and placed the best with hunters only for further selection.
I have seen several and visited the original importer and breeder of JTs in the 80's.

He lowered three month old pups into a cage with a defanged racoon and his selection continued.
Think of them as the true prey monster in a compact form.
The Heideterrier I posted earlier is an attempt to get a more handler responsive dog.
If you see vids of JT on Boar you might wonder the need for a canine Kamikazee
But then again people made em!


----------

