# OK Let's kill the speculation



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

OK I'm dying to know the answer for this from someone who's PSD has done real street work.

How often, and how badly, do the bad guys fight back?

I always hear all this speculation about a dog should do this a dog should do that, I've taken enough bites to come to this conclusion:

*If a good dog is sent on me and I'm NOT in a bite suit, I'll be knocked to the ground in about 1/2 a second flat (hell that happens even with a bite suit on), I'll be missing a chunk of my arm, n I'll be curled up in a lil ball crying for mommy.*

How do real life apprehensions go? Does anyone have a video of a non-training real life police dog apprehension??? I'd LOVE to see it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've seen a few videos on Cops   
The only one I saw resist was this huge Bubba in bibs type charcter. He just kept walking with this mal hanging on his arm, till he slung it over a fence and continued walking.  
It will be very interesting to hear from the real folks.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

That's a very good question Mike and I have been wondering that for a long time now. Hope someone will answer this soon. I can imagine with a huge mal, dutchy or gsd on ur case I sure wouldn't fight back


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

This is a touchy subject . I don't think many officers want to get too involved in this type of discussion 

Short and sweat answer , for me it's common for the suspect to try and pull the dog off if it's engaged . About 60/40 on the suspect complying with my orders to stop fighting the dog .

Most injuries from PSD's I've seen are small punctures , scratches and bruising . If it were very common to have serious injuries their would be alot more uproar about the use of K9's . But it also depends on the dog and how bad the suspect fights .

On a side note , by far most suspects are located and taken into custody without the K9 having to engage them . Biting is one of the least used abilities the K9 has . It's a locating tool first and foremost and a great deterent in convincing a badguy not to fight or run .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent point Jim!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've only seen 1 good engagement on television . Most were dogs that lacked good commitment in my eyes . Could be that the camera doesn't do them justice though . Not sure .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree with Mr. Nash, many officers are hesitant. I've seen generally the subject just wants the dog removed. Many bites are on the calf (running away) or on the hand/wrist area from the subject trying to push the dog. I have seen subjects pick the dog up. I've also seen them stabbed and shot. It's not a good scenario. A scared person usually panics. One on certain drugs can be oblivious to pain on those rare occasions that person is willing to stand and fight the dog. I've seen a couple of those were some real muscle damage was done to the subject. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Unfortunately David , I've had the same experience as you . Since I've been on , my unit has had 1 K9 Handler , 2 Patrol Officers and 2 K9's shot and killed . 1 K9 was stabbed but recovered fully like it never happened . I've also assisted another department after 1 of their dogs was shot(survived) . They also had 1 K9 shot and killed a few years prior to that . We've also had 1 K9 Handler stabbed with a sword(survived but it was close) and another K9 Handler slashed severely across the face with a boxcutter .

My dogs have been kicked , punched , hit over the head with objects ( plastic Coleman cooler , car door , wooden fence post , etc.. ) and one was actually bit by a suspect . None really phased my dogs or did much damage (car door a little) , but all made them fight harder .


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i work in a pretty low crime city. i've had 3 real steet bites with my dogs. on the first one, the guy tried to get away while the dog was biting him. the second and third the guy IMMEDIATELY surrendered and followed orders...


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Interesting topic. My patrol dog had around 20 bites during his career. The responses of those he bit varied from curling into a ball immediately and offering no resistance to ignoring the fact that a good size GSD was hanging off the ground completely suspended by his teeth attached to the suspect. 

Many fought, hitting the dog with their hands and feet. Some used nearby objects, such as an adding machine or a piece of wood to hit the dog. Fortunately none were able to utilize guns or knives, even though a few were armed with them. Many tried to escape by prying the dog's jaws off themselves. None of those were successful. 

The one who ignored the dog biting him was on PCP and was finally rendered unconscious by cutting off his air supply. He showed no sign that a dog had bitten him. I think that it's this guy that a dog needs to be trained for. A kicking fighting suspect or one who's trying to flee will bring up a dog's prey drive making him more tolerant of pain and making him think that he must increase the level of his fight. A passive suspect who doesn't react to being bit is quite hard for many dogs to stay on.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Having had to answer to the critics, the civil rights groups, local government, the media distort the truth etc: I am a little hestant in voicing my answers on this matter on an open forum?! :roll:


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Phil, that's why the forum exists is to discuss and educate one another. We would be delighted to get your input on this and other subject. 

And in case I haven't said so already...welcome to the board!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> Having had to answer to the critics, the civil rights groups, local government, the media distort the truth etc: I am a little hestant in voicing my answers on this matter on an open forum?! :roll:


you wouldn't be divulging anything that wasn't public record anyway (police report)...

the OP was just asking for generalizations. i don't think he wants the name and photos of the people your dog has biten. the video request might be a bit much. i doubt you'll get that level of cooperation...


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Just kidding.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think the important thing to keep in mind, is that one human life saved is worth the dog many times over. Whether the dog acted as a deterant to a crime not commited, assisted in the apprehension of a dangerous criminal, or simply bought a few precious moments that led to someone's successful escape to safety.

Even for the big Bubba who can shrug off a canine attack, at least his attention was momentarily on the dog and not some victim. I don't think there are quite that many people who would test their mettle with a protection trained dog. Sure, if the dog is already engaged, a 60/40 sounds reasonable just because of a natural reaction to try to free oneself from the attack. But if the suspect is not retaliating for self-preservation, and has yet to be engaged, then I believe it is more likely the suspect will react from fear into compliance. What I'm infering, is that I believe the _expectation_ of an attack can be more effective than the attack itself.

No handler, I think, would care to place his or her K9 partner in any harm's way, to _really_ test their effectiveness, to gather enough data to make any solid conclusions. I would presume also, that the temperament or demeanor of the animal _that the suspect percieves_ can be equally significant. So a hard, confident dog of better breeding is less likely to be confronted than a dog that shows weaker nerve that the suspect may be able to sense. There's just too many factors that can come into play when even trying to guess the answer to this question, aside from all dogs _or suspects_ not being equal.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<I believe it is more likely the suspect will react from fear into compliance. What I'm infering, is that I believe the expectation of an attack can be more effective than the attack itself.>>

No doubt about it. The mere presence of a dog, does not mean the dog will engage the suspect. More often than not, the mere presence of the dog will cause a subject to either present themselves from hiding or to surrender without further incident. Good dog programs document each of these instances. In my experience, there is a significantly higher number of instances where the dog was present and not engaged, than those where the dog was deployed. The psychological deterant factor of the dog is very strong.

<<<No handler, I think, would care to place his or her K9 partner in any harm's way, to really test their effectiveness, to gather enough data to make any solid conclusions.<<<<

Of course no handler wants to place thier dog in harm's way, as you stated. The fact is however, it's a reality of the situation, that it may come to that on any single deployment. It's not a macho contest of "my dog is better than yours" in a work situation. I would hope that last thing an officer is thinking during an actual situation is the potential data that could be collected.

DFrost


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

:lol: I hope so too :lol:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I had not read this, and it's quite interesting.

Our dogs had about 40 bites in a period of about 15 years. All of the criminals fought or tried to fight back BEFORE the dog bit. My two cents here are that they fought the dog BEFORE the dog was on them, with whatever was at hand. Criminals here don't hide like a passive, regular training scenario happens. One dog was killed by a machete.

The vast majority of the aprehensions were bite-less. Either the criminal surrendered, or people took over after the dog had found the man (or woman...so train for this too!)

We tried to get surprise on our side, but it was rarely possible.

Criminals are dangerous, and at least here, rarely passive. Dogs need to be trained to know about chairs flying at them, cushions, 2x4's, other things that criminals may try to put in the dog's mouth, machetes (in their sheath for training purposes), wooden knives, the sound of a bunch of gunfire, a bunch of people, other dogs, etc. Well, you get the point.

Here we don't encounter criminals on hard drugs, and almost all of them have submitted quickly when the dog was already on. We don't train our dogs for a hard, calm bite, so generally the criminal will be severely bitten.

The point for us here is that there have been more than a few dogs that will not engage at all...they will actually just bark from afar...if they feel something like a heavy chair slamming in their face before the bite, and then the criminal can get away.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres, are you in law enforcement in El Salvatore?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I was in Special Forces when handling dogs. Now that I'm mature (NOT old :wink: ), more intelligent and have a family and businesses, I am an advisor to joint task forces (army and police) in tactics and training. In theory I can't participate...but we're understaffed, underequipped, etc. so ocasionally I still do.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Andres, what are some of the situations that the Special Forces use dogs in, in El Salvador? I know from watching the military channel over here that the Special Forces guy's are alway's jumping out of perfectly good airplanes! I'm intriqued by war dogs
AL


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The US has in the past, I won't speak for the current times; trained dogs to detect mines, tunnels, trip wires; Underwater divers. of course the standard patrol/law enforcement, security type work. There weren't all that many deployments by parachute, but there were a considerable number rappelled from heliocopters. Drug and explosives detectors have been a mainstay of the US military as well, since the very early 70's.

DFrost


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

David, the question was in respect to Special Forces using dogs , not the military in general.
AL


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

David, as a moderator, I'm reminding you to please remain on topic.

Thank you

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> David, as a moderator, I'm reminding you to please remain on topic.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> DFrost


Oh, don't be so hard on him. He's just gettin' old. :lol:


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> David Frost said:
> 
> 
> > David, as a moderator, I'm reminding you to please remain on topic.
> ...


Can't we give some privileges to older people in this forum, like getting out of topic? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I heard that! 
I'm all for priviledges for the older folks here. 
Do we have any? I forget sometimes. :-k :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ......
> I'm all for priviledges for the older folks here.
> Do we have any? I forget sometimes. :-k :wink:


What? Privileges? Or older people?

I dunno. You could ask a moderator.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A what?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> A what?



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, it took THREE mods to kill that thread! :lol:  :lol: 


OK, let's try that again:

Al Curbow wrote:
Hi Andres, what are some of the situations that the Special Forces use dogs in, in El Salvador? I know from watching the military channel over here that the Special Forces guy's are alway's jumping out of perfectly good airplanes! I'm intriqued by war dogs 
A


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Al...surprise, surprise...

Dogs are used for detection and aprehension.

:lol: :lol:


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, it took THREE mods to kill that thread! :lol:  :lol:


Oh yes, THREE "Special Forces". :lol: :lol: :lol: 


I've been doing some reading about special forces and the use of those highly-trained units dates far back as the Napoleonic Wars. The ninjas were likewise referred to as the first "Special Forces". Since they mostly work in high-secrecy handling covert operations and can immediately be made active depending on intelligence data gathered, I will understand if Andres cannot disclose much.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Al Reanto...may the special forces be with you.

:lol: :lol:

Point is...as per the OP, IMO, criminals fight back way more BEFORE the dog gets them. Once the dog is on, it is a different story. Therefore it behooves me to train accordingly.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)




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