# Seminar Fees



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I just saw an advertisement for a dog seminar for $350 for two days. $50/day to spectate. Lunch not included.

Um, for $175/day, they better give me a gourmet meal. And maybe a cute guy to feed it to me.

I have put on several seminars for both my current SchH club and for other dog-related clubs in the past. I've always tried really hard to price them fairly. I know there's people that have complained...I think someone whined once when they were charged $20 to spectate the training of a person who had come over from Belgium.

But come on, $350?? Does anybody else think this is getting crazy? Add in travel expenses, maybe a night in a motel, and ouch!

Needless to say, I won't be attending this particular seminar 

Laura


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

That is at the High End, I guess it depends on Who, how many people and what kind of work you can expect to get done with your dog.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I just saw an advertisement for a dog seminar for $350 for two days. $50/day to spectate. Lunch not included.
> 
> Um, for $175/day, they better give me a gourmet meal. And maybe a cute guy to feed it to me.
> 
> ...


I have found that seminars in general are a waste of money, unless you personally know the person and believe they have your best interest at heart. I have saw 3 people spend oodles of money to train with a man from belgium in california....for 2 weeks straight. All three dogs failed one phase or another. I also see that the people throwing the seminars feel some pressure to make significant improvement on the problems being shown in a very short amount of time to preserve thier crediability. 

No matter what, they are selling a product....and the product has to deliver some sort of instant gratification. Even if it's not what is best. 

In this sport I do not think experience the best teacher....I am coming to believe it's the only teacher. 

And I observe people going to seminars, idiolizing the training before them. Seeing some rapid changes in the dog....then still not doing well. What's the deal? I think the product being sold most of the time is a shiny box with shit inside....and as Good Americans, we like packages made of shiny material with shitty products inside.

And I believe that it does depend who it is...is this thier Buisness? Does thier lively hood depend on it? I know of a guy who most would pay 300.00 dollars a day to see and work with. and they have done so many times....but they still are spinning thier wheels and not moving forward. Now you could balme the handler for not following instructions....but handler after handler? 

People throwing seminars, are not in the dog training buisness, they are in the make the handler happy buisness.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I have found that seminars in general are a waste of money, unless you personally know the person and believe they have your best interest at heart. I have saw 3 people spend oodles of money to train with a man from belgium in california....for 2 weeks straight. All three dogs failed one phase or another. I also see that the people throwing the seminars feel some pressure to make significant improvement on the problems being shown in a very short amount of time to preserve thier crediability.
> 
> No matter what, they are selling a product....and the product has to deliver some sort of instant gratification. Even if it's not what is best.
> 
> ...


Hey James, do you think it could be people trying too hard to copy exactly what the trainer was doing no matter if it really works or not?


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I have found that seminars in general are a waste of money, unless you personally know the person and believe they have your best interest at heart. I have saw 3 people spend oodles of money to train with a man from belgium in california....for 2 weeks straight. All three dogs failed one phase or another.


I think to be fair, two weeks to undo what was probably years of previous training is a little much to ask. How do you know they wouldn't have failed even worse but for the additional training? 

Laura


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

When I had Flinks in over the Fourth Holiday, we charged $125 a day or $300 for all three days. $35 to spectate per day, and lunch, drinks and snacks were provided. 

We only had 11 people, so the dogs got worked a minimum of twice daily for more than 20 minutes (depending on the dog). 

I lost money, a lot of money actually. With Flinks fees (which are more than fair), airfare (which was cheap), motel for Flinks and the other decoy I brought in, and food, drinks and snacks....I paid out of pocket about $600 (not including the $300 fee I paid as well)

Was it worth it? HELL YES!!! 

I also worked privately with him for three days prior to the event. 

I don't like charging an arm and a leg, but with someone like Flinks.....I felt that my price was fair. 

I went to a Mondio Ring training/workshop and since I was the only newbie, the lecture part was skipped and I think in three days I got a total of 25 minutes total per day (for two dogs) with the instructor and I paid $75 (might have been $65, don't remember) per day, per dog. Not to mention feeling TOTALLY out of place. 

So, my intro to Ring Sport was not that great. 

I always strive to make people feel welcome, and I would rather keep the numbers down, lose a little money and have people walk away tired and knowing that they got the time and instruction they needed from the event than try to pack it, have loads of down time and not have people return. 

And, I encourage newbies to attend....something that I have seen discouraged at some events.....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I have found that seminars in general are a waste of money, unless you personally know the person and believe they have your best interest at heart. I have saw 3 people spend oodles of money to train with a man from belgium in california....for 2 weeks straight. All three dogs failed one phase or another. I also see that the people throwing the seminars feel some pressure to make significant improvement on the problems being shown in a very short amount of time to preserve thier crediability.
> 
> No matter what, they are selling a product....and the product has to deliver some sort of instant gratification. Even if it's not what is best.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of the above and I'm not an avid seminar goer.

I've been to 4. The first was Walter Kreipl from Germany who really gave a seminar and told us his thoughts on how the dog learned, how to "keep" the working dog, i.e. outside of training, etc. 

The next was Elmar Mannes of Leipheimer Moor and owner of Sid Haus Pixner currently. Very good - more of a training weekend than the above but excellent advice and no "tricks". Advised letting the dog over a certain age, work how he was used to in protection, and not try to force changes. He did crticise our trainer for letting his dog "beg" before allowed to the sleeve but I see that Sid did this as well!

The third was Fritz Biehler. Also old school style, more of a training day than a seminar. Down to earth, common sense training. Blunt but honest. No fancy work. However, saw pics of him in SA with table work.

Ronny van den Bergh - complete training weekend. Mostly based on keeping to the SchH / IPO competition work and training in the order of the competition exercises, even to the order, i.e. first comes heeling, then positions and at the end sendaway. Good seminar as he, as with the other 3, is very open to questions.

I have heard that Jogi Zank (Contact) Zucker Brot und Peitsche is good.
Thomas Lapp
Knut Fuchs

Steve Strom asked:

_Hey James, do you think it could be people trying too hard to copy exactly what the trainer was doing no matter if it really works or not? _

This is probably what a lot of handlers do. Instead of thinking things out first, they copy and copywork never has the stamp of conviction so that the dog never really gets it.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Yeah, thats what I meant Gillian. Trying so hard to mimic exactly what they've been watching and losing sight of their dog. Probably something more with inexperienced people like myself then people with a lot of training under their belt.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

James Downey said:


> People throwing seminars, are not in the dog training buisness, they are in the make the handler happy buisness.



Not sure I agree with this 100% as I like to see handlers leave happy with what they got from the event. Which is why I keep them small. 

I know that what I take from a seminar only makes me better depending on IF I apply what I learned after the seminar. I see some people thoroughly motivated when a well known instructor comes in, only to slack on the training after that instructor is gone. 

Since I am serious about dog training, I apply what I learned and work on it almost daily (at least every other day) and I see the progress, which makes me want to train harder. 

It is not my responsibility to make sure other handlers are applying what they learned after they leave here. UNLESS it is my team mates, therefore, if I see them moving backwards, going stagnant or just not applying what they learned correctly, I will mention something. 99% of my team mates are grateful for the comments and get better if they just forgot a small step or something. And if they give up, argue or just want to do something different....then it is not my responsibility either. They will either come around or not. 
And I am big on filling the toolbox, so I do not put instructors on a pedestal....if the methods work....then I use them, if I get stuck, I inquire and discuss what I need to do and if I need to bring in an instructor, whether seminar or private, then I do my best to get them here. 

I love to help people, but lately I am a bit selfish I think, since I want to learn, apply and move forward....therefore, I concentrate on me and my dogs most of the time.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Carol, those sound like very reasonable fees. I think at our club's last seminar we charged very similar.

I don't think that seminars aren't worth attending, although at this point, I wouldn't participate in one unless I knew that the seminar-giver has a similar approach to training. Spectate, yes. But personally I don't find it beneficial to participate in a seminar where the training method is radically different and I'd have no ability to follow through. Mostly I'm talking about protection. Obedience is much more open for me.

It just seems like $175/day is kinda steep. I've been to one of this person's seminars before and, typical of Schutzhund, it was a series of training sessions rather than a "seminar." Quite good, but worth $350? I dunno. 

Laura


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey James, do you think it could be people trying too hard to copy exactly what the trainer was doing no matter if it really works or not?


 
I think this is true also. But I do not think that it makes my statement untrue.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Not sure I agree with this 100% as I like to see handlers leave happy with what they got from the event. Which is why I keep them small.
> 
> I know that what I take from a seminar only makes me better depending on IF I apply what I learned after the seminar. I see some people thoroughly motivated when a well known instructor comes in, only to slack on the training after that instructor is gone.
> 
> ...


 
Carol, I do not think that my statement was 100% true either. How do I put this?....I know you did not paraphrase me with the intention of making what I said look like something else. But I did say, that you must trust the person...I do agree there are people like you out there. But How can I tell, unless I already they know that they have my best intentions at heart.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Carol, those sound like very reasonable fees. I think at our club's last seminar we charged very similar.
> 
> I don't think that seminars aren't worth attending, although at this point, I wouldn't participate in one unless I knew that the seminar-giver has a similar approach to training. Spectate, yes. But personally I don't find it beneficial to participate in a seminar where the training method is radically different and I'd have no ability to follow through. Mostly I'm talking about protection. Obedience is much more open for me.
> 
> ...


I agree....and I think it really depends on the instructor coming in. Flinks I would definitely pay money for....and any other person that was highly recommended.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I think to be fair, two weeks to undo what was probably years of previous training is a little much to ask. How do you know they wouldn't have failed even worse but for the additional training?
> 
> Laura


 
I do not know laura. I think I can make an educated guess about one dog, who looked exactly the same as he did in every single other trial he wasever in. It looked like the dog had never done a seminar. As if the handler would have been better just doing what he was doing, and saved his money. 

That was not my only experience with that seminar...I bought 3 protection sessions. Session on, he asked for the electric. I obliged, I was a younger and dumber and not researched the person first. I had taken the sheep mentality and followed the herd...whom were all hailing him as great trainer. He was very, very talented decoy...possibly the best one I have ever seen catch a dog. But in that one session, I walked away with "out" problems...a problem I never had before. I have a very obedient dog. So, Most of her problems I attribute to my training and not genetics. I tried to talk with him about what I may think have caused the problem....To much electricty, for every minor infraction. I had explained to him what I wanted to teach the dog that day. I also explained I was not concerned about minor things like her being perfect in position or that she be delayed in her responses...just that she do it in approximations of the behavior...he shocked for every little thing. the dog was so confused after five minutes of training. she just did what made her feel good, and that's bite and not let go. After I had spoke to him, he explained that I was making excuses and that out means out. I thought he may not be as talented at training as others as advertised. So I went home and did what I should have done in the first place...I researched him. And found out he had not done anything, other than decoy at high level trials. He had not taken any dog to a high level of competetion. I got a refund for my remaining sessions...and then witnessed the same trainer shock a very weak dog till the point of cowering under a blind...and screaming around the field. and this was the dogs first experience with electricy. The problem they were try to solve was the dog would wander from the handler, and he thought shocking the dog till it went by mommy was the best course of action right off the bat

Laura, it maybe unfair....I am sure it is. I am a little self centered. So I am always looking out for # 1. It was just an example of many I have had at seminars. And observing others. I have been to a good seminar. which by the way was done a man whom trains with man I talked about above. The difference was this man had taken dogs to a high level and it seems that person had a selfish interest also (which I think is a totally normal human way to behave, So I do not fault him for that). Almost everyone training with him had a puppy or decendent from his lines. He even gave me a few free training sessions with him in the seminar. But the conclusion I came to is both trainers giving the seminars were motiivated by the same place in thier brain. A little selfishness. One had a vested interest if the dogs do well in future competetions, the other monetary and face. Which again I do not fault either man for being selfish...But I do fault myself for not being a little smarter about things.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I probably should wait to respond, but what the hell. Wow, Jim, you and I remember that day a LOT differently. It's obvious who you're talking about. The decoy was never touted as an excellent trainer, just as an excellent decoy who works with excellent trainers. Do you know why Nellie hosted him? (it wasn't our club) Because she knows what she's doing and she didn't have a helper at the time. So all she needed was a really good helper to work her very nice dog.

I don't remember Bob and Bico failing the trial right after the two weeks that the excellent decoy was here. I was there, but I don't remember. I do remember the judge treating him like crap. The same ole shit happened for Bob and Bico at this year's regionals, so who are you going to blame for that? You can't erase SIX YEARS of a certain style of training in two weeks, especially with a Malinois that's been trialed as much as he has. Maybe Bob just wanted to see a different helper.

As far as the weak dog at the seminar with the electric, I don't remember that one. What breed? Who was it?

And I don't remember your protection session the same way you do. I remember thinking Addie was a nice enough bitch with a masculine bark and I remember a lot of very sweet sounding "no." Like you were trying really hard to be purely positive but the dog needed a little more direction. I actually didn't remember that you used electric.

I started this thread talking about cost of seminars and you seem to want to push it into a certain direction to bitch about Peter. Strange. Oh, by the way, I love training with people who have a special interest in my dog. You didn't see me at your decoy's seminar, did you? I had heard about the comments about "blow jobs for helpers" he made during a previous visit. I guess things are different if he doesn't take a special interest in your dog and you're a girl.

I'm sure this thread has gotten incredibly boring for those people who have no idea what we're talking about and don't really give a crap!

Laura


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> "blow jobs for helpers" I guess things are different if he doesn't take a special interest in your dog and you're a girl.





Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I'm sure this thread has gotten incredibly boring for those people who have no idea what we're talking about


Nope, that has pretty much sparked my interest. Is this guys club looking for new helpers? :-\"


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

James Downey said:


> Carol, I do not think that my statement was 100% true either. How do I put this?....I know you did not paraphrase me with the intention of making what I said look like something else. But I did say, that you must trust the person...I do agree there are people like you out there. But How can I tell, unless I already they know that they have my best intentions at heart.


You are correct, I did not mean that to come out as paraphrasing at all.....just wanted to say that I think that there are people like me out there that put on events such as this to learn all that they can and they want to invite others to do the same.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Back on topic..... 

I don't think that sounds like too much for the right seminar. Most people and clubs cannot afford to lose money hosting a seminar. As was mentioned, air fare, motel, meals, some entertainment, that all adds up. I would rather pay a bit more to attend a seminar I really wanted to learn from and have the number of participants limited. 

I've attended many seminars through the years, both equine and dog. Most equine related one cost much more... I'm thrilled with "how cheap" the dog ones are. O

The big thing is, if somebody thinks it cost too much, don't go. If you really want to attend a seminar with that person, investigate either going to them for a few days or host your own seminar.

I do dislike having my chair taken over my a spectator who whines when I want it back after I'm done working my dog though. :roll: Worse yet, who moves my chair to make room for theirs. :-#


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

HMm....

I think we've been through or helped organize seminars with a bunch of people. 

Some of these range from Wallace Payne, to Ivan Balabanov, to Gert Vandermissen and Christine Sohnberg, to Bernard, and many others. 

Seminars are markedly different. We also were at different levels in our learning as we went through various people in our training. Having a world class champion trainer and competitor may or may not be the best thing to do when you're a newbie...or it may be. 

Also, you have very different training styles that come into play. Some of the people above are extremely compulsive; others are much more into motivation and operand conditioning theory. You don't always get what you pay for in dog training. 

Wallace Payne's seminars seemed to be very reasonable in price. We consider Wallace and Debbie personal friends. He does get a bit motivated on compulsion in our opinion compared to others. 

Ivan is certainly the master in just about every area, and can certainly show you quite a bit. We met Ivan way too early in our training. 

By far, our best training experience so far has been Bernard Flinks. It is not unusual for someone to walk away with pages and pages of notes (I would pay money or dinner for someone's notes at this point from Flinks) in that he communicates far and above what most trainers will do, show you many things a lot of other trainers don't, and has multiple and various perspectives to teach from - ranging from Military and LEO dogs, to sport, to simple Personal Protection dogs. if I could spend a month training with him, I would. Soopah. 

And I think he charges $400 per day, per seminar. Regardless of how many students you have with working spots...

So, your mileage varies depending on many factors...though some people are *awful* proud of their rates, with little to show for it.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> Soopah.
> 
> And I think he charges $400 per day, per seminar. Regardless of how many students you have with working spots...



I LOVE that word....LOL

and when he was here it was 400 euros per day...and I think the euros amount may change when the american amount changes....that was the most confusing part for me.....

Bernhard, Sarah Mandler and I had fun trying to find a bank in Hickville SD that even knew what we were talking about....:-o\\/
We laughed pretty hard about the blank stares that we got....

Also, I can be a nervebag when training in front of new people, and the three days of private training I had with him prior was awesome. I was MUCH more relaxed walking onto the field, being a "newbie" than I would have been without it. 
Very patient, very easy to understand and VERY easy to work your dog around.


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## Kayla Barth (Apr 18, 2009)

Tina Rempel said:


> .
> 
> I've attended many seminars through the years, both equine and dog. Most equine related one cost much more... I'm thrilled with "how cheap" the dog ones are. O


I agree with you there Tina. I was talking with one of my friends about how much it takes to do well in showing horses. It ends being the same mentality with getting quality dogs and horses. We where talking about importing animals. Try paying a minum of 10,000 dollars for a horse compared to a 1000 or so for a dog.](*,) LOL but back on topic. I went to Gerben's seminar at Mike Suttle's. I was well worth the money. I definatly got more then what I paid for and added a shit load tools to put in my tool box.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I probably should wait to respond, but what the hell. Wow, Jim, you and I remember that day a LOT differently. It's obvious who you're talking about. The decoy was never touted as an excellent trainer, just as an excellent decoy who works with excellent trainers. Do you know why Nellie hosted him? (it wasn't our club) Because she knows what she's doing and she didn't have a helper at the time. So all she needed was a really good helper to work her very nice dog.
> 
> I don't remember Bob and Bico failing the trial right after the two weeks that the excellent decoy was here. I was there, but I don't remember. I do remember the judge treating him like crap. The same ole shit happened for Bob and Bico at this year's regionals, so who are you going to blame for that? You can't erase SIX YEARS of a certain style of training in two weeks, especially with a Malinois that's been trialed as much as he has. Maybe Bob just wanted to see a different helper.
> 
> ...


 
Laura...Well, I guess the decoy was advertised with a little more hype to me...again my fault. As for the BJ comment....I have no idea what your talking about. I have to ask what Decoy's seminar you are talking about? Bert? I cannot imagine him saying something so crude. He was always very polite, very much like Peter. That Bert Seminar is the only one I did my home field while I was in Cali. So I was not at the first one...Actually I did not know Bert had done a seminar previous. I was not trying to bitch about anyone. That's why I did not mention names....I was providing experience to back my position on why I think seminars are a buisness and sometimes the person providing the instruction may not do what is in your best interest....but instead do what is in his/hers.

And No I did not know why Nellie brought over Peter.

And yes, I was bit nancy with my dog in giving her commands, I was nervous, failry green and confused on to why a dog that just went 95-86-96 a few short weeks before this, had all of a sudden looked like she has tons of control problems. I am not blaming anyone for any of our failures....the dog is my responsability to train. It was just another example, on why I am going to be much, much more careful on who I allow to help me train. My post is not a chance to point fingers...in fact it's exactly the opposite. It's me taking much more responsability on my dogs training....and a hard lesson learned. I have taken other seminars with folks of "high" accomplishment and have seen them try and fix or improve my dogs preformance in a session or 2. And even by your admission this is a silly expectation. But why would trainers like me and you whom are not world renowned trainers, but do have something going on that has brought some success be willing to admit this? but yet I have had experience with these top level trainers trying to make it happen? I believe because this what many handlers want to see...and these trainers doing seminars are more than willing to try and make a handler happy....for a fee. 

As for the dog...it was a Dobie handled by a female.

And yes, Addie was on electric... She never trains without her E on her neck.

As for Bob and Bico...I beg to differ on changing 6 years of training in a few sessions. I have seen Bico under the direction of others become a totally different dog in a few training sessions. It's not like the dog is not capable of learning of something in 14 sessions. But none the less....I agree you cannot totally blame the seminar for that. It was just an example of why I do not bother with to many seminars these days.

Laura we may have only be aquitances in Cali...But we were cordial and polite to one another. I would like to keep it that way., nor do I want to personally indict anyone by thier name. My intent is not degrade anyone, or throw them under the bus....But Just to argue what I believe about the value of seminars.


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## Brenda Arao (Nov 2, 2008)

Jim, 
re: Peter V. & other SoCal Seminars
1. I'm good friends w/the dobe & owner that you're referring to. That was not her first time in electric. The dog had gone thru a puppy boot camp as a youngster w/electric. The session that Peter did w/the dog was something that several of the trainers agreed upon (as well as the owner). It was something that we were going to do anyway. Immediately after the seminar was over, the owner continued the exercises w/electric for several weeks: it didn't require the same amount of stimulation to get the message across....the dog has a wonderful recall ever since (prior to that, the dog would play the keep away game & ignore the owner).
2. Nelli always brings some of the best helpers & trainers to SoCal. The money earned helps pay for expenses & entertainment (some of them want to go to Vegas....or they bring their dogs). I can talk, because I was involved in all of the seminars that you are referring to....I was the person w/the cash box. 
3. The truth is, everything is overpriced these days...for now, I can't afford to do any more seminars w/my dogs. My SchH Club wants to put on a seminar, so I'll see what it will cost, but the trainers' rates are all going up. 
All the best! Brenda.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Having just hosted a seminar at my kennel this past weekend I can offer a little input here.
Hosting an event like this takes a lot of time, a lot of help, and a lot of money.
I had several paying participants here last weekend, and when all of the costs were deducted there was still not much profit at all.
The plane tickets were $3000
there were two 12 hour round trips to the airport
about $750 in food for 3 days
Gerben did not do it for free so I had to pay him for his time
I also paid Ron extra to work full time all weekend in the kennel so that I could concentrate on helping Gerben and the participants at the Seminar.
It is great to host one of these events, but one or two a year is all that I can handle.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Mike it was the best 3 day seminar i have ever been to.. I just wonder how much other people pay to train per day .... In a club or private.. I can almost guarantee you can not get the knowledge that was given to me this weekend for a thousand dollars ....in life you get what you pay for sometimes..... Mike please don't raise the fees next yr. Just on my acct.. Lol


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

hillel schwartzman said:


> I can almost guarantee you can not get the knowledge that was given to me this weekend for a thousand dollars ....


Please tell me that I am not reading that a weekend seminar was $1000 bucks:lol:....please.....

that is almost as bad as some of the SAR Instructors out there that have raised prices, to unGodly amounts per day or per three or four day events when in_* r-e-a-l-i-t-y* _they are only worth that in their own world..ugh....

(clarifying that I am talking SAR not Sport when I say that...)


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Please tell me that I am not reading that a weekend seminar was $1000 bucks:lol:....please.....
> 
> that is almost as bad as some of the SAR Instructors out there that have raised prices, to unGodly amounts per day or per three or four day events when in_* r-e-a-l-i-t-y* _they are only worth that in their own world..ugh....
> 
> (clarifying that I am talking SAR not Sport when I say that...)


Hey Carol, so you think $1000 was too much to charge Hill to come and train with us this weekend.
you obviously have never had to deal with Hill for 3 days straight!!!!:razz:
Just kidding of course........we charged $300 for the 3 days if the participants brought a dog, $225 without a dog. That included free lunches and free drinks for all 3 days. It also included firearms instruction which Hill took advantage of too.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Hey Carol, so you think $1000 was too much to charge Hill to come and train with us this weekend.
> you obviously have never had to deal with Hill for 3 days straight!!!!:razz:
> Just kidding of course........we charged $300 for the 3 days if the participants brought a dog, $225 without a dog. That included free lunches and free drinks for all 3 days. It also included firearms instruction which Hill took advantage of too.


Hey Mike....thanks for clarifying...I was thinking that it was just a figure of speech...

I don't know Hill, so I would not dare venture to say....but $1000 is steep for anyone LOL

If the drinks had Crown in them....hmmmmmm....mmmaayyyybbeeee...:-D

I think the next time I have Flinks back, which will be next year I will try to do a 3 day Sch and then a 3 day LEO training with a 2 day break in between....then we can take him Prairie Dog hunting, we missed that this last time due to heavy rains that made it too muddy to get to the site this time....

Plus, I owe him a soft cotton line that Ajay just bit in two with one chomp....oooops #-o:lol:

I really try to keep costs down for the people coming in, and the loss for me was worth it.....totally.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Yes carroll mike usually charges me 1500 to put up with me for 3 day ,but the economy sucks so he cut me a break only 1000 lol


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Brenda Arao said:


> Jim,
> re: Peter V. & other SoCal Seminars
> 1. I'm good friends w/the dobe & owner that you're referring to. That was not her first time in electric. The dog had gone thru a puppy boot camp as a youngster w/electric. The session that Peter did w/the dog was something that several of the trainers agreed upon (as well as the owner). It was something that we were going to do anyway. Immediately after the seminar was over, the owner continued the exercises w/electric for several weeks: it didn't require the same amount of stimulation to get the message across....the dog has a wonderful recall ever since (prior to that, the dog would play the keep away game & ignore the owner).
> 2. Nelli always brings some of the best helpers & trainers to SoCal. The money earned helps pay for expenses & entertainment (some of them want to go to Vegas....or they bring their dogs). I can talk, because I was involved in all of the seminars that you are referring to....I was the person w/the cash box.
> ...


 
Brenda I stand corrected on the Electric with the dog...Got some bad gouge on that one. I guess with that one, It is a personal choice, as always on the method selected to train the dog. I guess I was coming from my own personal views on not appreciating the method of training.

As for Nelli...I think Nelli was a wonderful host. I do not know much about Nelli besides her training successes. And that she does seem to be a women with a get it done additude. I was trying to keep the people involved anonymous. Again a lessoned learned. My only intent was to explain my experiences at seminars....not bash the trainers involved. I am sorry that even engaged in this discussion.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I have given up on seminars piss on em. I like to bring in a excellent trainer/coach and and train dogs. 
Invite enough people to come close to breaking even and train like mofos. Do this once a month or six weeks you can get shit done and done rite. 
Also a great way to get green helpers started and understanding the program.
Going to a 2 or 3 day seminar whare the guy has no clue about your dog and previous training and expect to get much accomplished I dunno. Them maybe again a year latter.:?:
Ive trained with Dean, Flinks, Ivan, Michael, Stephan Schwaub and everyone inbetween. All great trainers and handlers but cant them every month or so.
The exception to my thinking is Carol she is much like most of us 15 or 20 years ago just starting out with few resources and opportunities to learn.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Carol, to have any real success when using a trainer from elsewhere, you will have to have him come out more than 1 time a year.

That is where it starts getting expensive. You learned a lot from him, but only a few months, you will be using less than 60% of what you learned. Not total, but learned. LOL 

It is just how it works out. If you are phenominal, then maybe 60% of what was taught.

Painfully high price to pay for a foreigner. LOL


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Carol, to have any real success when using a trainer from elsewhere, you will have to have him come out more than 1 time a year.
> 
> That is where it starts getting expensive. You learned a lot from him, but only a few months, you will be using less than 60% of what you learned. Not total, but learned. LOL
> 
> ...


I totally agree Jeff, which is why I really need to send some PM's and go to some trainings. I know that I live fairly far from a couple of the clubs I am interested in, but if they will allow me to train with them, then I will travel for what I need to do. 

I also talked with BF and told him that I would travel to two of his seminars a year, PLUS, have him in here as well. 
I have tons to work on from the last seminar, so I am occupied with that as well as my SAR training. 

One thing that people may not know or realize about me.....I am a fighter and if I want to do something, I do it to the best of my ability and work hard to achieve the goals I set for myself. 

(I am in no way phenominal..but I work hard at what I want, and someday, I will trial and title......)

I have people telling me "you can't" or "it won't happen" and that has been through SAR and now Sch....and it has happened....I set my goals very high, and it has paid off (even though I may have not gotten right to the goal I set)....as I have achieved more than even I thought I would at times. So, the more that I am told I can't, the more I work hard to prove that I can, and I will!!! :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Amen carroll 

tell me i can't
it just pisses me off and i will try harder.... Been there done that....
Re seminars you only get what you put in..the knowlege i gained was price less common sense...these are your dogs and if you let some one else f--- them up that was your fault.... Because it's your dog..


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was not advocating not training, I was just suggesting that you have him out more often.

I think it is great that you just went out and made a field and did it. Sadly, it is gay Sch, but what can I do, the sport of Mondio is too small right now.

However, it is quite possible that you could inspire others to just say **** it, and start a club and start training. I say, Good for you.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Thanks Jeff....my goals are to have him out either A) more than once a year OR B) for a couple weeks at a time. 

I know what you meant, and I appreciate your input, I really do. Even though it is "gay" sch....LOL

I think that some seminars get way overrated and I did my research on who I wanted to bring in, and when I was told Bernhard would come...I jumped on it. 

His teaching style is really unique and easy to learn from...and he has a great balance between positive and compulsion.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I just saw an advertisement for a dog seminar for $350 for two days. $50/day to spectate. Lunch not included.
> 
> Um, for $175/day, they better give me a gourmet meal. And maybe a cute guy to feed it to me.
> 
> ...


Here is my take on the seminar issue...

It would be a great deal easier for me to just take my dog and travel to trainers, even going to France would be cheaper if my goal was just to get my own dog trained.

But that isn't my goal. My goal is to get protection sports a firm foothold in my area. Because at some point in the future I would like our area to be able to stand alone in training, and succeed at national/international level events. I firmly believe in the philosophy of "if you build it they will come".

I have held many seminars with my ring club. I have tried low cost (and covered the bulk of the costs myself) to get people interested, I have brought in world class trainers. Honestly ringsport itself is just too small and unknown in my area to stand alone.

I was approched by two other ladies about bringing in Michael Ellis late last year. I had honestly never thought of bringing in Michael before that, as in french ring we usually always look to France. The great thing about Michael is that he has his feet firmly in both sports and a following in both, oh yes and he is fluent in english.. lol. 

Thru this alliance we get enough sch, obedience AND ring people to make the seminars really successful. It also allows people an opportunity to see other sports and training and allows cross training for those who would like to try something new.

Because of these seminars we have had show people express interest in sch, and sch people express interest in ring, and thru Michael there are several from all sides interested in mondio. It is incredibly synergistic.

We set our seminars up to cover costs, flights, food, fees, etc. Any money left over will (not much) be put towards a trial(s) next year. It is by no means a money making venture.

So I have a hard time with some of the posters who have labeled seminar hosts as "money grubbing". If that is true I wonder where the hell all my money goes!!

Tamara McIntosh


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> Here is my take on the seminar issue...
> 
> We set our seminars up to cover costs, flights, food, fees, etc. Any money left over will (not much) be put towards a trial(s) next year. It is by no means a money making venture.


Our club does the same and the price of the seminar may vary depending on the presenter and their fees and our expenses. Our Schutzhund club has been host to seminars with Ivan, Flinks, Bill Kulla and Wallace Payne. We hope to break even and if there is anything left over it's earmarked for seed money for future events.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Terry Fisk said:


> Our club does the same and the price of the seminar may vary depending on the presenter and their fees and our expenses. Our Schutzhund club has been host to seminars with Ivan, Flinks, Bill Kulla and Wallace Payne. We hope to break even and if there is anything left over it's earmarked for seed money for future events.


We do the same, Terry. At best we want to break even, which kinda sucks because of the amount of work involved, but if it helps someone, it's cool. I doubt we'll bring in any presenter any time soon that causes us to charge $175 a day. When I first did agility, seminar fees were reasonable. Then presenters started charging more and more because people would pay. Now I see agility seminars for $175/day all the time. There's one this Saturday for $175 from 10:00 to 4:00. At least with agility seminars, they advertise the number of participants and stick to it. That's not the norm with Schutzhund from what I've seen.

Laura


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_I have people telling me "you can't" or "it won't happen" and that has been through SAR and now Sch....and it has happened....I set my goals very high, and it has paid off (even though I may have not gotten right to the goal I set)....as I have achieved more than even I thought I would at times. So, the more that I am told I can't, the more I work hard to prove that I can, and I will!!!





















_

Carol, with this attitude, you'll get further than most. Don't let anyone put you off your goals.

Good luck!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> _I have people telling me "you can't" or "it won't happen" and that has been through SAR and now Sch....and it has happened....I set my goals very high, and it has paid off (even though I may have not gotten right to the goal I set)....as I have achieved more than even I thought I would at times. So, the more that I am told I can't, the more I work hard to prove that I can, and I will!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
no fear gillian, carol will title a dog in Sch LONG b/f i will  (well, maybe...)


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I look at it like this....I want to show people that you can do this without having to have a team in your backyard....I know there are more people out there like me that want to do stuff like this but feel like there is no hope when there is no one close. 

Yes, having a team close is great, but if I work hard, travel when I need help or when I have the time (which I actually make time) then you can accomplish what you want to do. There are sacrifices that need to be made though, and you have to be willing to do that. 
And, if you set up a seminar with a well known and well liked instructor, people will come. I don't care if it is two or ten, because I WANT the training too. It is a let down to not break even....but.....if I stick to it..and the seminars are well put together and handlers get plenty of training time to make their trip worth it, all I can do is grow in the seminar hosting department. 

I refuse to accept the negatives, I know what they are and that they will happen, but I am not going to let it stop me....


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I have been to many seminars- some of them I didn't care for but I have learned something from each one. I may or may not use it, but at least I have the knowledge somewhere in my brain to draw from should I come to a place in my training where what I planned on doing is not working and I may want to try something else. 

I can tell you that reading about a forced hold and teaching it are very different. That being said I have watched 3 trainers teach and each were a little different and because of that I felt comfortable enough to try it myself.

Last summer we had a great seminar with some one we all like a lot. I think we paid $200-300 per person for 3 days (what ever we could each afford) to make it happen. One person donated air miles, some one else donated a bedroom. Our club did not have the funds but we came up with it.

Usually after a trial we have small seminar on Sunday (trial Friday & Saturday). These little ones are free for members and people who trial with us. We usually just pick one thing to focus on. I don't always take my dog out either. Some times I make a judgement call and say "this crazy ****tard is not putting his hands on my dog. And some times I do watch in horror and one of my not so smart club members lets the crazy ****tard loose on their dogs.

See- I learned from that particular judge. I learned DO NOT LET HIM TOUCH YOUR DOG :-D


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