# Interested in a foster puppy program???



## mike suttle

OK, so I just did breeding tonight with an Arko daughter and Hektor PH 1 Met Lof. This breeding was done specifically with the goal of producing iron retrieving dogs for a contract that we have. Both dogs are crazy iron retrievers and extremely possesive over any toy, they have insane working drives, super environmental nerves, and they are very social and easy to handle with no dog aggression or dominance issues. The lines of Hektor are well known for producing extremely driven, yet easy to handle dogs. Due to the requirement for social and easy to handle dogs we decided to use Hektor instead of Carlos to this Arko daughter.
Anyway, I would like to place some of these puppies with good trainers who understand how to build drive and prepare dogs for serious selection testing.
The deal would be as follows: You will come to our kennel and together we will pick a puppy from this litter for you, the dog will be given to you at no charge and purchased back from you next year when the dog is ready to pass the selection test that will be described and demonstrated in great detail when you are here. There will be an informal "contract" discussing the buy back price, the responsibilities of both parties, and of course the exit plan if things are not going as planned.
For now I just want to get an idea of how many people would be interested in doing something like this.
Then we will discuss your training experience and you must have references. The buy back price will be $4000-$4500 for the metal retrievers that pass our selection test. The price will be adjusted based on how the dog works and on what articles (metal, PVC, wood, rubber hose, rolled towel, ball, etc)
Let me know if you may be interested in this.


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## Denise Picicci

Mike, I would jump on this in a heart beat if I did not already have 2 dogs which is my limit. Hopefully you will get some people who are interested and qualified for that might be your biggest challange. Good luck


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## Don Turnipseed

Mike, just curious, what would be the purpose of a dog retrieving metal or pvc?


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, just curious, what would be the purpose of a dog retrieving metal or pvc?


As an upper end detection dog this is very important. US Customs and Border Patrol only buys metal retrievers. A dog that is a true metal retriever (not taught a forced retrieve) is always a much stronger retriever than a dog who will not play with metal. Metal is one of the most unnatural objects for a dog to play with. We put a huge emphasis on metal retrievers here because in nearly all cases those are the only dogs that also posses the heart and drive to pass our selection testing. If a dog will play with metal, retrieve metal over and over again, tug with a metal pipe like it was a jute roll, hunt for it, show strong possesion over it, etc. then he will only be stronger when he plays with rubber hose, pvc, etc.
Many departments use PVC in their training for many reasons. This is all pretty common knowledge in the detection dog word.
To sum it up........ true iron retrievers are simply the strongest and most driven type of detection dog.


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## Don Turnipseed

Thanks Mike. I really had no idea dogs had an aversion to steel......or that the uniqueness of a dog that like steel would put him in demand. Interesting!


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thanks Mike. I really had no idea dogs had an aversion to steel......or that the uniqueness of a dog that like steel would put him in demand. Interesting!


I think you may be missing the point, it is not really about a dog "liking steel". It is about a dog with so much retrieve drive by nature that they will retrieve steel with enthusiasm, not because they like steel, but because they like to retrieve so much. It is really very hard to explain, if you ever see a super high drive dog retrieving iron then it will make sense to you. I will say that even in the malinois world, only about 10% of the best detection dogs that I see have this type of drive for all objects, including metal.
Everyone tells me that their dogs have high retrieve drive, but they dont understand the difference.
Just because a dog will retrieve something does not mean that he has "high" drives for it. There is a certain level of intensity that I can not explain in text, it just has to be seen and compared to 1000's of other high drive dogs to get an idea of what I am talking about.
When I say "retrieve" i dont nessasarily mean bring it back to me, I mean sprint down the field as fast as you can, crash through the brush with reckless abandon, hunt like hell with a lot of intensity for 20 minutes if nessasary, then crash into the metal pipe so hard with his mouth that he also takes a divit of ground with him. he does not have to bring it to me, he can go off somewhere else and lay down on it and start to try to eat it.
It is really just a matter of these things....intensity, possesivness, play drive, hunt drive, retrieve drive....all to the most extreme levels. When a dog has these traits he will retrieve metal with no problem. If a dog will not retrieve metal, then he lacks the type of drive that we are looking for. And picking up a metal pipe by the end and soft mouthing it back to you does not count. It is all about intensity and really having an obsessive desire to fight with you (tug) over it.


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## Anna Kasho

mike suttle said:


> I think you may be missing the point, it is not really about a dog "liking steel". It is about a dog with so much retrieve drive by nature that they will retrieve steel with enthusiasm, not because they like steel, but because they like to retrieve so much. It is really very hard to explain, if you ever see a super high drive dog retrieving iron then it will make sense to you. I will say that even in the malinois world, only about 10% of the best detection dogs that I see have this type of drive for all objects, including metal.
> 
> It is really just a matter of these things....intensity, possesivness, play drive, hunt drive, retrieve drive....all to the most extreme levels. When a dog has these traits he will retrieve metal with no problem. If a dog will not retrieve metal, then he lacks the type of drive that we are looking for. And picking up a metal pipe by the end and soft mouthing it back to you does not count. It is all about intensity and really having an obsessive desire to fight with you (tug) over it.


You posted that video of the pool-ripping dog playing around with metal pipe a while back, I thought that illustrated it well. 

It is funny, because my GSD is closest to what you describe, in that he isn't bothered and will snatch up a metal pipe and run around the yard with it IF he thinks someone might take it - but he doesn't care to work with me, and won't play fetch with it. If I want the pipe back in my hand I ask my mals to do it. And they are not the top 10% you are describing! They may pick it up carefully, and chatter their teeth and make faces, but they have better work ethic and they will search and retrieve over and over as long as I keep throwing. Which is not the point of your test there. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

That makes more sense since it isn't actually retrieving but a strong lack of aversion to having steel in the dogs mouth to the point they will play with it like anything else. I know stainless steel is different but I had to quit using stainless bowls because they played with them. Got small gal tubs and they would grab the rims and tip them over which cause a few problems because they were set up with auto waters and floats so the never shut off when tipped. Finally got 15 and 20 gal tubs they couldn't pick up but they tried. Don't know what it was like to have a mouth full of gal tub but they would do it just to be a pain in the ass.


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## Howard Knauf

Mike,

I'm very interested in this. I'll be in WVA around Christmas doing some hunting. When will the pups be available for pickup?

Howard


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## Michael Santana

At what age would you want the pups picked up at?


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## mike suttle

Anna Kasho said:


> You posted that video of the pool-ripping dog playing around with metal pipe a while back, I thought that illustrated it well.
> 
> It is funny, because my GSD is closest to what you describe, in that he isn't bothered and will snatch up a metal pipe and run around the yard with it IF he thinks someone might take it - but he doesn't care to work with me, and won't play fetch with it. If I want the pipe back in my hand I ask my mals to do it. And they are not the top 10% you are describing! They may pick it up carefully, and chatter their teeth and make faces, but they have better work ethic and they will search and retrieve over and over as long as I keep throwing. Which is not the point of your test there. LOL


Yeah, to use the "pooling killing" dog as an example..........he did not have the drive or intensity that was required for the contract I need dogs for. he was a very nice detection dog, but just not enough for this contract.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> That makes more sense since it isn't actually retrieving but a strong lack of aversion to having steel in the dogs mouth to the point they will play with it like anything else. I know stainless steel is different but I had to quit using stainless bowls because they played with them. Got small gal tubs and they would grab the rims and tip them over which cause a few problems because they were set up with auto waters and floats so the never shut off when tipped. Finally got 15 and 20 gal tubs they couldn't pick up but they tried. Don't know what it was like to have a mouth full of gal tub but they would do it just to be a pain in the ass.


Every one of my dogs will carry a stainless food bowl around all day if I let them, they all fight the buckets all day long too if allowed to, but believe me, they are not all true iron retrievers. LOL
In fact, almost every dog that I have ever had here would play with a food bowl and carry it around, but most of them were not suitable metal retrievers for what I need.
Trust me, it is something way different. I guess I can not explain it very well.


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## mike suttle

Howard Knauf said:


> Mike,
> 
> I'm very interested in this. I'll be in WVA around Christmas doing some hunting. When will the pups be available for pickup?
> 
> Howard


I just did the first breeding with them yesterday, so they will only be around 1 week old at Christmas time.


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## mike suttle

Michael Santana said:


> At what age would you want the pups picked up at?


between 12-16 months. whenever they are ready. it is almost impossible for a dog younger than 12 months to pass the selection testing for this contract.


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## Howard Knauf

Thanks Mike. I'm seriously considering it. I can go by your place when I'm up there should I decide...and if you accept...the offer.


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## Anna Kasho

mike suttle said:


> Trust me, it is something way different. I guess I can not explain it very well.


Which is why you need to show examples on video. :idea: \\/


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## Don Turnipseed

It isn't that hard to understand Mike. Before I mentioned the SS bowls I said that "I know stainless isn't the same". The example was getting to the galvinized water tubs, but, as I said, they just do it to be a pain in the ass because when there are unused, empty ones around they have no desire to mouth them much less guard them. I do understand high drives and how easy it would be to see what you are talking about. If I threw a piece of PVC I think they would more likely pick that up than a piece of pipe. Many of my more serious dogs won't even chase a ball (or a pipe if I were to throw it). On the other hand, put them on a scent they know will be something to kill and they go into high drive. Just different dogs bred for different things. You are talking about metal dogs reacting to steel much like mine react to a critter they know will fight back.


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## Timothy Saunders

Mike you can feel free to correct me if I am wrong. when I was at knpv training some of the guys used a pvc pipe like most of us use a tug.secondly the intensity of the drive was no matter what was in the box or the object they were sent after they attacked it with full force. i might have a video of this.


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## Sue Miller

I have a question--isn't it all genetic? My gsd puppy picks up anything he finds on the floor & carries it around. Doesn't matter if it's metal but I don't think he has the kind of drive you are talking about. My older SchH dog & other dogs will retreive metal--but they needed a forced retrieve. Just curious about what you need from a person who fosters a puppy. Do they need to train a some kind of search retrieve? Or do they just need to develop the drive of the puppy?


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## mike suttle

Sue Miller said:


> I have a question--isn't it all genetic? My gsd puppy picks up anything he finds on the floor & carries it around. Doesn't matter if it's metal but I don't think he has the kind of drive you are talking about. My older SchH dog & other dogs will retreive metal--but they needed a forced retrieve. Just curious about what you need from a person who fosters a puppy. Do they need to train a some kind of search retrieve? Or do they just need to develop the drive of the puppy?


A dog with the wrong genetics will never do this. Many of us can "train" any dog to pick up anything and bring it back, but that will not work in this case. These dog have to have the genetics first and foremost, but they must also be encouraged to do it several times a week in the correct way to build the drive to the highest level, they must be propperly exposed to hunting on vehichles, in buildings, on rubble piles, as well as in open and brushy fields. There is no substitute for propper genetic makeup, however even that alone may not carry the dog through these testing protocols. It takes a combination of great natural genetic drives, and a very compitent trainer to develop the genetics as much as possible.


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## Timothy Saunders

hey Mike , have you done this breeding before? Isn't it possible to breed 2 dogs that don't produce what they are.


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## Daryl Ehret

Two mals won't produce a litter of gsd's, but yes, it's possible. ;-)


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## mike suttle

Timothy Saunders said:


> hey Mike , have you done this breeding before? Isn't it possible to breed 2 dogs that don't produce what they are.


 Of course it is possible that they wont produce what they are. I have seen many offspirng from the lines of Hektor (Boy X An) and all of them have the same crazy retrieve drives. While they lack real man aggression, the nerves and drives are extremely good. I have discussed this combination with many KNPV breeders in Holland and they all agree that this breeding should produce the type of dog that I am expecting from this litter.
Of course anything can happen, if it were easy for me to predict with 100% certainty, then I would be rich.:-D


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## susan tuck

mike suttle said:


> As an upper end detection dog this is very important. US Customs and Border Patrol only buys metal retrievers. A dog that is a true metal retriever (not taught a forced retrieve) is always a much stronger retriever than a dog who will not play with metal. Metal is one of the most unnatural objects for a dog to play with. We put a huge emphasis on metal retrievers here because in nearly all cases those are the only dogs that also posses the heart and drive to pass our selection testing. If a dog will play with metal, retrieve metal over and over again, tug with a metal pipe like it was a jute roll, hunt for it, show strong possesion over it, etc. then he will only be stronger when he plays with rubber hose, pvc, etc.
> Many departments use PVC in their training for many reasons. This is all pretty common knowledge in the detection dog word.
> To sum it up........ true iron retrievers are simply the strongest and most driven type of detection dog.


Thanks for this explanation, Mike. What really drove this home for me was "tug with a metal pipe like it was a jute roll". My own dog will retrieve a thrown pipe, he will pick up and bang around his food bowl, and of course we have all seen those dogs who like to crunch aluminum cans, but play tug with an iron pipe like it was a jute roll - I don't think so.


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## Sue Miller

I know they're working dogs but don't you have to worry about the teeth when playing tug with an iron pipe?


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## mike suttle

Sue Miller said:


> I know they're working dogs but don't you have to worry about the teeth when playing tug with an iron pipe?


Yes, there are a few issues that must be worried about when playing tug with an iron pipe.....teeth is one of the biggest worries.
The thing is.......I dont make the rules for this contract, I only try to find and prepare the dogs to fill the contract.
The contract calls for crazy iron retrievers, so that is what I have to find them.


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## Mike Di Rago

Mike,
I understand your position here as far as the contract thing but the metal retrieve could be used as a selection tool but not really needed in the training, don't you think?
Just a thought.
Mike


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## mike suttle

Mike Di Rago said:


> Mike,
> I understand your position here as far as the contract thing but the metal retrieve could be used as a selection tool but not really needed in the training, don't you think?
> Just a thought.
> Mike


to a certain extent that is correct, but the puppies need to be exposed to retrieving metal throughout their imporinting phase to make sure it is not new to them when they are tested. Before theses puppies go to their foster homes I will explain in great detail how I prepare them, this thread was just to see if anyone would be interested in this project with me.


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## Al Curbow

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would need iron retrieving, lol What organization would need this and for what function?


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## Guest

Al Curbow said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would need iron retrieving, lol What organization would need this and for what function?


 
Maybe its an organization that doesn't want anyone to know why or who they are.......

Everyone does a test for a reason regardless of what we all think, there are applications out there for alot of this stuff, but in my view if a dog is willing to bite/retreive copper as strong as required, he will do that to a towel, ball, jute, pvc, etc.....it displays confidence and intensity. Test a dog stronger and harder than you ever plan to work him in. Just be gentle...


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## andreas broqvist

We have it in the higer OB clases so Iges ther areto, so i gess ther are pupos to it


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## Kadi Thingvall

This is an interesting idea, and a good way to have a pool of dogs to choose from when they are older, who have had the benefits of a lot of one on one. 

What happens with the dogs that don't meet the selection criteria once they are "of age"?


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## Guest

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This is an interesting idea, and a good way to have a pool of dogs to choose from when they are older, who have had the benefits of a lot of one on one.
> 
> What happens with the dogs that don't meet the selection criteria once they are "of age"?


I think Mike was thinking of sending them to Jeff... :-$


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## Mike Di Rago

Mike,
Thanks for the update. I hope things work out as I think foster homes with a good followup is the way to go.
We had a puppy program set up that way a few years ago and the people in that were truly motivated help bring out some good dogs that worked out for our force. The RCMP still uses their puppy program with potential applicants.
This should prove interesting in the years to come. Good luck
Mike


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That is all I need a bunch of ENS'd up wackos raised by idiots. LOL I can't believe that more people haven't said yes to this. I have no room, but after I get a place, I will sign up and throw metal pipes at their heads. Sounds like and easy 5 grand to me.


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That is all I need a bunch of ENS'd up wackos raised by idiots. LOL I can't believe that more people haven't said yes to this. I have no room, but after I get a place, I will sign up and throw metal pipes at their heads. Sounds like and easy 5 grand to me.


 
I have one that will play tug with a pipe or anything for that matter, but I just use the pipe to beat his ass.....and still doesn't work most of the time!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

In all seriousness, I cannot believe that he hasn't been swamped with people wanting to make an extra 500 a month to play with a pup.

All you gotta do is follow his directions and get your money.


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## Howard Knauf

Wow. Just when I was going to comment that your first post was as predictable as the sun rising, you go and get serious.

Does sound like fun though, doesn't it? I know it'll be a lot of work given what I saw at Mike's in July.

Oh...and I like the way you bumped up the buy back price. lol


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Must be selling them for 20 30 grand. LOL


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## Gerry Grimwood

It sounds to me like these "iron retriever" dogs are just high drive retrievers that are just conditioned to handling steel pipe, if you start off early enough you can make a dog crazy about anything whether it's steel or cotton.

You started out saying it's pretty much all genetic, then said it has to be encouraged and then said the pups have to have this as part of the imprinting...so is the iron part just for show ?


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## mike suttle

Gerry Grimwood said:


> It sounds to me like these "iron retriever" dogs are just high drive retrievers that are just conditioned to handling steel pipe, if you start off early enough you can make a dog crazy about anything whether it's steel or cotton.
> 
> You started out saying it's pretty much all genetic, then said it has to be encouraged and then said the pups have to have this as part of the imprinting...so is the iron part just for show ?


What I am trying to say is this>>>>>no matter how much training and work you do, if the dog doesn't have the genetic drive for this type of work, then you will never be able to get it to pass these tests. 
I have tried to explain it many different times in many different ways. you would be amazed at how many tell me their dogs are "iron retrievers" and when they bring the dog to me for testing, I see a dog that will pick up and carry iron, but are by no means a truely driven iron retriever. I guess the point that people miss is that it is not the actual act of picking up metal, but the intensity and drive for every object to include metal. I will stop trying to explain it here, if people dont understand why it is important, or the way that we use it to evaluate a dogs true drives and intensity then those people likely are not suitable for this program anyway.


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## Guest

mike suttle said:


> What I am trying to say is this>>>>>no matter how much training and work you do, if the dog doesn't have the genetic drive for this type of work, then you will never be able to get it to pass these tests.
> I have tried to explain it many different times in many different ways. you would be amazed at how many tell me their dogs are "iron retrievers" and when they bring the dog to me for testing, I see a dog that will pick up and carry iron, but are by no means a truely driven iron retriever. I guess the point that people miss is that it is not the actual act of picking up metal, but the intensity and drive for every object to include metal. _I will stop trying to explain it here, if people dont understand why it is important, or the way that we use it to evaluate a dogs true drives and intensity then those people likely are not suitable for this program anyway_.


 
LOL, cmon you know this was going to be like this....I told ya. I expected people to come out of their living rooms and jump at this and think they can do it... LOL 

How much are you charging for the ones that ruin a perfectly good dog?


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Must be selling them for 20 30 grand. LOL


Yes, thats right Jeff. They are $30,000 each, I have about 8 litters per year with an average of 9 puppies per litter, so that is over $2 Million per year, and I am a rich guy!!:razz:
If I could get that out of all of my dogs then I would live in a nicer house, drive a newer truck, and not have to sell Shaquira to buy food for my babies! LOL


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## Michael Santana

mike suttle said:


> What I am trying to say is this>>>>>no matter how much training and work you do, if the dog doesn't have the genetic drive for this type of work, then you will never be able to get it to pass these tests.
> I have tried to explain it many different times in many different ways. you would be amazed at how many tell me their dogs are "iron retrievers" and when they bring the dog to me for testing, I see a dog that will pick up and carry iron, but are by no means a truely driven iron retriever. I guess the point that people miss is that it is not the actual act of picking up metal, but the intensity and drive for every object to include metal. I will stop trying to explain it here, if people dont understand why it is important, or the way that we use it to evaluate a dogs true drives and intensity then those people likely are not suitable for this program anyway.



It seems like the easiest way to explain it would be... If the dog is willing to bring back (or die trying) anything you can think of tossing across a field (PVC, tug, Iron, a small honda), then it shows the drives you need/want.


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## Nicole Stark

I don't have any qualifications to justify a response to this post because I know very little about working dogs in this capacity but this particular subject is something I feel pretty strongly about (the importance of dogs that are utilized for real and very practical work).

Anyway, I wondered how long it would take for this post to be cheapened with comments like "an easy 5 grand". My first thought when I saw the post was, I'd do it for nothing - if I had the experience Mike was looking for. Unfortunately, I don't. But at the same time I wondered how many people would be interested just for the sake of the perceived "easy money". It's none of my business but I'd personally rather see Mike work with the people who are genuinely interested in the work vs someone whose more interested in doing it for what's thought to be easy money. Maybe it is, but if it were really that easy I doubt he'd have interest in farming these dogs out to achieve the results he's after. I'm also guessing that anyone who was genuinely interested contacted Mike directly. Heck, did anyone happen to notice the number of hits this post received in just 36 or so hours? A lot...

Also, I could be way off base but I think the iron retriever portion might be taken a bit out of context. I understand it to translate into the sheer intensity for the actual retrieve, which is absolutely essential for the work. As stated throughout this post by Mike, iron is something that dogs are naturally repelled to so when you get one willing to retrieve an object such as this and with indiscriminate intensity it manifests itself in a completely different working picture/result and that's ultimately what they are seeking.

As I said, I could be entirely off base with this but I did want offer my perspective given that the iron retrieve is somewhat of a curious subject to people and maybe a bit misunderstood. I'm interested in knowing whether or not my impression of its role is correct.

PS. Just realized about 5 replies came in while I prepared this response. It's redundant, based upon Mike's reply. If for nothing else it does appear my assessment was correct.


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## Guest

Michael Santana said:


> It seems like the easiest way to explain it would be... If the dog is willing to bring back (or die trying) anything you can think of tossing across a field (PVC, tug, Iron, a small honda), then it shows the drives you need/want.


Don't forget to possess it as if it were his last meal and intensity in the retrieve, etc etc


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## Guest

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't have any qualifications to justify a response to this post because I know very little about working dogs in this capacity but this particular subject is something I feel pretty strongly about (the importance of dogs that are utilized for real and very practical work).
> 
> Anyway, I wondered how long it would take for this post to be cheapened with comments like "an easy 5 grand". My first thought when I saw the post was, I'd do it for nothing - if I had the experience Mike was looking for. Unfortunately, I don't. But at the same time I wondered how many people would be interested just for the sake of the perceived "easy money". It's none of my business but I'd personally rather see Mike work with the people who are genuinely interested in the work vs someone whose more interested in doing it for what's thought to be easy money. Maybe it is, but if it were really that easy I doubt he'd have interest in farming these dogs out to achieve the results he's after. I'm also guessing that anyone who was genuinely interested contacted Mike directly. Heck, did anyone happen to notice the number of hits this post received in just 36 or so hours? A lot...
> 
> Also, I could be way off base but I think the iron retriever portion might be taken a bit out of context. I understand it to translate into the sheer intensity for the actual retrieve, which is absolutely essential for the work. As stated throughout this post by Mike, iron is something that dogs are naturally repelled to so when you get one willing to retrieve an object such as this and with indiscriminate intensity it manifests itself in a completely different working picture/result and that's ultimately what they are seeking.
> 
> As I said, I could be entirely off base with this but I did want offer my perspective given that the iron retrieve is somewhat of a curious subject to people and maybe a bit misunderstood. I'm interested in knowing whether or not my impression of its role is correct.
> 
> PS. Just realized about 5 replies came in while I prepared this response. It's redundant, based upon Mike's reply. If for nothing else it does appear my assessment was correct.


Nicole, don't get me wrong, I too anticipated the comments as do most, if not your silly! This is an open forum to a vast majority of personnel doing many different disciplines of dog training/work, etc. Some have passion in what they do, some do it for the money, others who knows?? I am very open minded and have done a few things in my time, but we have to make this not only as formal and information based, but entertaining. I only make wise comments to people I know and Mike is one of them, if it bothered him he would let me know, we are big boys and if you can't handle it or have tough skin, your definately in the wrong field. 

I understand and respect Mike for what he has done and how successful his programs are, I PM'd him after his post and told him this would happen....TOO FUNNY! 

Well, those are my two cents......

Jeff, you got any......(he is more blunt!)


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## Don Turnipseed

What was throwing me was the reference to "retrieving". I am used to a retriever bringing an object back. Apparently bringing it back is not part of the scenario, it is finding and wanting to posses the article.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

If you are supplying pups with this sort of genetic background, then raisig them to play with, and retrieve iron is just a matter of taking the dog out and playing with it. It is not like you are asking for a perfect retrieve, just a dog that is retrieving iron.

It is a shame that you are not getting high dollar for these pups. I have seen a LOT of handlers over the years, and the percentage of them that will do a nice job with an intense dog like that is very small. Just the fact that they are looking for something as retarded as that makes me suspect of their ability to train. : )

I hope that you get this started, and that people will do the right thing for you. Lacklands puppy program had some weirdos that decided that they wanted the dog for themselves and were punishing the dog for biting. People are ALL about themselves now. Shame.


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## Don Turnipseed

I expected more people but I am not surprised. Never know how many PM's he has had. When I have offered free dogs to get rid of my excess culls....[-X.....scratch that......to break the ice and get them into a new venue, it isn't unusual to get no response at all....but I never offered to buy them back for $4 grand. Mike might be on to something.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jody Butler said:


> LOL, cmon you know this was going to be like this....I told ya.


Be like what ?? I was asking a question.


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## Guest

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Be like what ?? I was asking a question.


Not you, Nicoles comments...


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## Mike Scheiber

Don Turnipseed said:


> I expected more people but I am not surprised. Never know how many PM's he has had. When I have offered free dogs to get rid of my excess culls....[-X.....scratch that......to break the ice and get them into a new venue, it isn't unusual to get no response at all....but I never offered to buy them back for $4 grand. Mike might be on to something.


There are 9 other people on this thread wile I'm typing this reply


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## Nicole Stark

Yeah, he was talking to me. But, I was talking to Jeff in part of my post but did not specifically address him. Didn't see the need to. Jody I know you and Mike are cool. I commented on what I did because I didn't want to see this thread go to shit primarily because I place tremendous value the work that people like Mike do. I have a lot of respect for people who dedicate their lives to this type of work and it doesn't have to involve a dog for me to find value in it. Guess it was just my attempt at being supportive by trying to keep the discussion on track and real.


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## Guest

Nicole Stark said:


> Yeah, he was talking to me. But, I was talking to Jeff in part of my post but did not specifically address him. Didn't see the need to. Jody I know you and Mike are cool. I commented on what I did because I didn't want to see this thread go to shit primarily because I place tremendous value the work that people like Mike do. I have a lot of respect for people who dedicate their lives to this type of work and it doesn't have to involve a dog for me to find value in it. Guess it was just my attempt at being supportive by trying to keep the discussion on track and real.


Point taken


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## Mike Scheiber

mike suttle said:


> OK, so I just did breeding tonight with an Arko daughter and Hektor PH 1 Met Lof. This breeding was done specifically with the goal of producing iron retrieving dogs for a contract that we have. Both dogs are crazy iron retrievers and extremely possesive over any toy, they have insane working drives, super environmental nerves, and they are very social and easy to handle with no dog aggression or dominance issues. The lines of Hektor are well known for producing extremely driven, yet easy to handle dogs. Due to the requirement for social and easy to handle dogs we decided to use Hektor instead of Carlos to this Arko daughter.
> Anyway, I would like to place some of these puppies with good trainers who understand how to build drive and prepare dogs for serious selection testing.
> The deal would be as follows: You will come to our kennel and together we will pick a puppy from this litter for you, the dog will be given to you at no charge and purchased back from you next year when the dog is ready to pass the selection test that will be described and demonstrated in great detail when you are here. There will be an informal "contract" discussing the buy back price, the responsibilities of both parties, and of course the exit plan if things are not going as planned.
> For now I just want to get an idea of how many people would be interested in doing something like this.
> Then we will discuss your training experience and you must have references. The buy back price will be $4000-$4500 for the metal retrievers that pass our selection test. The price will be adjusted based on how the dog works and on what articles (metal, PVC, wood, rubber hose, rolled towel, ball, etc)
> Let me know if you may be interested in this.


WTF you want a dog that will fill your trash cans how about you send me one of them pups and I'll send you back a SCHUTZHUND DOG instead of a god damn junk collector.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jody Butler said:


> Not you, Nicoles comments...


Ok, I understand now...you were replying to Nicoles comments 10 minutes before she posted them :lol:


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## Guest

I have a 4 month old Mali right now that I have retrieving metal, glass, rock, pvc, wood. Anything I touch, she will go out for. Metal (keys, jar lids, 2 qt feed bowls, steel roofing, steel wire, tools) is what she loves to chew on most! She'd probably go out and retrieve a chunk of concrete with rebar in it if I threw it for her I got her into metal and glass at 7 weeks after she jumped off the plane, took a piss and then ran out and brought me a rock the size of a golf ball. If I had more time, I'd definitely be all over this. Very cool project Mike.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I was talking to Jeff in part of my post but did not specifically address him. Didn't see the need to. Jody I know you and Mike are cool. I commented on what I did because I didn't want to see this thread go to shit primarily because I place tremendous value the work that people like Mike do.

Yes, tremendous value. It pretty much went to shit when you replied without having a ****ing clue what you were replying to...as is normal.

You sell dogs, you make money. You don't even have to be a good trainer to do this, you just have to have a bank roll and off you go. I know some very successful people that do this. I will always wish a brother Marine the best, but tremendous value ?? Get serious.


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## Tim Bartlett

Mike,

Just post a video of a dog that retrieves iron like you are describing. I think people will understand better when they see it on video. Most departments that buy dogs from Europe anymore want a dog that does this exact thing. Is it necessary???? Not always, but that is their requirements.

We do not ask for the dogs to do this when evaluating MWD's, but we are also not spending the amount of money people are for iron retrievers. We still buy some nice dogs without these requirements. It would be hard to find 600-700 of them a year. :smile:


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## Al Curbow

A video would definitely help me out! I'm not getting it, if i played tug with my dogs with a pipe the way i do with the jute , their teeth would be gone in seconds, smashed and broken. and bloody.


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## Jason Lin

I remember reading this thread awhile back before I got my puppy. Well, got the boy a few days ago. So last night I decided to toss a wrench and see what he will do. Does Ike show "iron retrieve drive"? Doesn't matter to me one way or another ... I'm keeping the puppy :lol: I'm just curious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_Uaxj2mHXw


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## Timothy Stacy

Let's say I take a puppy. 
Would it be a better pup on the litter?
You sell your pups for 1000 to 1500, just guessing.
You give 5000 for green dogs that can cut it.
So if you give someone a average pup and they make it look as good as it can get but not quite up to par for your needs. What kind of payout would that leave someone at for their hard work?


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## Mo Earle

Jason looks like a very nice pup!


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## Dave Colborn

Sounds like a good deal if you REALLY like puppies!!! I know my limitations. Mike, is it okay if I pass your email on to a lady who might be interested?


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## Anna Kasho

Jason Lin said:


> Does Ike show "iron retrieve drive"? Doesn't matter to me one way or another ... I'm keeping the puppy :lol: I'm just curious.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_Uaxj2mHXw


He's looking the same as my puppies at that age - so based on my limited experience with my own dogs, my guess would be no? Dunno, really.

Mike, if you're reading this, get some video up already, so you don't have type 1000 word explanations of exactly what it is you're looking for and leaving everyone scratching their heads. I repeat, a video reference would be real helpful...;-):grin:


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## Timothy Saunders

the ability of a dog to pick up metal is not what he is looking for. he want a dog that all most loves metal like the craziest ball drive you have seen in a dog. the dog has to want metal so he might refuse food to get it even when he is hungry.


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## Don Turnipseed

Like in a dog that has a diet that is iron deficient?


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## Michelle Reusser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Like in a dog that has a diet that is iron deficient?


LMAO that shit is priceless!


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I have a show line GSD that likes to walk around with the power drill while I'm trying to do stuff around the house... what's he worth? Any takers? I'm getting sick of his yipping in the yard, he doesn't like his demotion from house dog to yard dog


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## Lee H Sternberg

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I have a show line GSD that likes to walk around with the power drill while I'm trying to do stuff around the house... what's he worth? Any takers? I'm getting sick of his yipping in the yard, he doesn't like his demotion from house dog to yard dog


Does he do any yard work?


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## Timothy Saunders

Don Turnipseed said:


> Like in a dog that has a diet that is iron deficient?


priceless:lol:


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## Timothy Saunders

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I have a show line GSD that likes to walk around with the power drill while I'm trying to do stuff around the house... what's he worth? Any takers? I'm getting sick of his yipping in the yard, he doesn't like his demotion from house dog to yard dog


well if he is a union helper dog about 2 dollars a pound in dog food . non union about .50 cent a pound


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## ann schnerre

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I'm getting sick of his yipping in the yard, he doesn't like his demotion from house dog to yard dog


oh mike--you didn't REALLY do that to Cujo, did you???=; oh you cruel, heartless man . 

put a bark collar on him for heaven's sake, shut him up.

you guys are ALL priceless....


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