# Showline Line Malinois...



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Who the hell would buy a showline Malinois that has had the drives breed out of it? I think they are pretty ugly dogs to begin with and at best look like a dog you got from the pound. Apparently there is a breeder that does this in the Prescott valley of AZ. 

I was out working with the Mal this morning. I was making him do crazy things like jump in and out of the truck window for a bite, jump over the truck for a bite. Jump from picnic table to picnic table for a bite. We did out of motion OB exercises and commands from a distance of about 30 yrds too... I think he's coming along nicely. 

So am approached by this guy who has a Mal. He obviously isn't a serious dog person because he was offended when I told him not to let his dog get close to mine. 'He just wants to sniff and play" Whatever...

We get to talking about dogs and he tells me he was impressed with my dog and wanted me to show him how to train his dog. I obliged for a second but when this dog wouldn't even chase a ball it was all over for me. I can't imagine this breed of dog not being crazy to chase anything that moves. My dog is barking like a mad man from the truck because he saw me toss the ball.

I asked where he got the dog and he told me it was a malinois from Ring Champion parents. SHOW RING CHAMPS.=; Then he said the breeder specialized in making them family pets as well as for the breed ring but his dog was pet quality. I asked about how he got into Mals and he says he read about then in a Dog World Magazine and liked that fact they are considered the "Ultimate" breed of dog. So this guy has a Malinois, that doesn't work and isn't even show quality AND he paid $1500 for it. #-o

Its sad to hear that such a fantastic breed is being watered down like that.

I'm glad I have a good one. This little dog is fun!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> Its sad to hear that such a fantastic breed is being watered down like that.
> 
> I'm glad I have a good one. This little dog is fun!


I totally agree. It is really sad.....and it needs to stop!!!=; [-X


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

That is really sad. Although if the guy did get an "ultimate" high drive mal, he'd be in serious trouble. Some people want nothing more than a fancy livingroom ornament. #-o

Bad news for the breed I love.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Interestingly, we have a mal that I would consider is from showlines in our avi dog program now. 

I have not seen the dog work, but it is certified in both the avalanche profile and a general ground search profile. Other instructors tell me it is a fine search dog. The handler also just returned from Italy where she was searching her dog for earthquake victims as she is certified for disaster with the IRO.

As long as it can do the work, I am cool with it. I would agree that a showlines dog would be less likely to do the work. That said, look at the rescues and mutts that Frost turns into detection dogs, not all of those were bred with working in mind. Some dogs end up with drive just by accident;-) #-o 

Also having the skills to do bitework is another matter all together I suppose. I mean a lab can have great search skills/drive, but that doesn't mean it can do bitework.

All that said...don't think I will be looking for a showline mal anytime soon:lol: :lol: ;-) I do think that many first time SAR dog handlers would be in over their heads with a working line mal, but I still would not recommend a showlines dog to them. I would rather they started with another breed perhaps as was suggested to me.

I think it was Kadi (sorry if I got this wrong) who once said she was happy about the breed split. I agree...let the first time handlers who haven't done any research, people who want to have watered down pets and showdogs have breeders to go to. That way the breeders who are developing working dogs don't have to bother with those folks and have somewhere to send them!


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> Who the hell would buy a showline Malinois that has had the drives breed out of it? I think they are pretty ugly dogs to begin with and at best look like a dog you got from the pound. Apparently there is a breeder that does this in the Prescott valley of AZ.
> 
> I was out working with the Mal this morning. I was making him do crazy things like jump in and out of the truck window for a bite, jump over the truck for a bite. Jump from picnic table to picnic table for a bite. We did out of motion OB exercises and commands from a distance of about 30 yrds too... I think he's coming along nicely.
> 
> ...


I know a guy who wanted to get a Mal, he was looking around on the internet and found one that was like 8 weeks old and needed a home. He told him that he was looking for a medium drive working mal. The breeder said, oh yeah, this dog will be perfect for you....

So I was forwarded the info and Predigree to check out the dog, stupid ass show dog.
He even sent over a picture of the piece of junk puppy. I wouldn't pay a dime for that dog.

The icing on the cake was.... the breeder said if the dog was sold, as a requirement, the new owner would have to name it after a fine wine.

LOL

Yeah, Rambo des Las Merlot is not going to cut it buddy.

Anyone else heard about this wine breeding dog enthusiast who is trying to sell show line crap puppies as working dogs?


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

A good friend of mine has several showline malinois, one who is one of teh most winningest mals in history, went best of breed at eukanuba and westminster, and was akc number one sired in terms of producing champions for 2008. Oh and he works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWJMwygsPEI

and hes nine and a half years old in this video

Just to say some of them can work


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

in defense of the guy I met this morning, his dog was three years old. He obviously was nothing more than a pet owner so it's possible he never encouraged the prey drive in his dog. 

When I first tossed the ball the dog just look at me. When I rolled the ball past him, he made a quick initial lunge to get the ball but as soon as it was out of reach the dog quit. I felt bad in a way because even my old (10 and 12yrs) pugs will retrieve a ball for me as long as they are the only dog around.

I didn't mean to imply that showline Mals can't work, I'm just thinking a Pet Quality Mal with no drive from showlines is about as useless as you can get especially since even a show champ looks like it's a shepherd mix from the pound.

I couldn't imagine having a totally worthless dog in the house. As least pugs will lay in your lap and act like a clown. And even though I have two POS rotts in the house, they will still chase a ball and jump on tables and do otherwise relatively dog stuff. I just can't make 'em bite people.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> in defense of the guy I met this morning, his dog was three years old. He obviously was nothing more than a pet owner so it's possible he never encouraged the prey drive in his dog.
> 
> When I first tossed the ball the dog just look at me. When I rolled the ball past him, he made a quick initial lunge to get the ball but as soon as it was out of reach the dog quit. I felt bad in a way because even my old (10 and 12yrs) pugs will retrieve a ball for me as long as they are the only dog around.
> 
> ...


I agree with you Chris I personally dont see the use of a show mal thats like drinking non alcoholic beer, but if they can work..... I am a fan of any dog that can work. Black and Tan, Fawn with black mask or Striped its all the same as long as they work.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

You should be training those pugs for bitework. I have seen some nasty little pug buggers. Got bit by more than a few while working for the cable company.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Greg Leavitt said:


> You should be training those pugs for bitework. I have seen some nasty little pug buggers. Got bit by more than a few while working for the cable company.


Dude, you ain't kidding!!! The nastiest bite I ever got was from my pug who thought he could fight the Rott. I took several stitches in my middle finger. The skin and tissue was peeled down to the tip and bone was exposed. I thought for sure I was gonna loose it and it was so bloody and messy, that on the way to the ER, I nearly puked on myself! I couldn't quit gagging and it was making my wife cry and gag at the same time. What a couple of bumbling idiots we were :lol:

Still, I have no feeling in that finger from the 2nd knuckle down to the tip. I'm lucky it's completely useable and have about 90% of my range of motion in the finger.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Dude, you ain't kidding!!! The nastiest bite I ever got was from my pug who thought he could fight the Rott. I took several stitches in my middle finger. The skin and tissue was peeled down to the tip and bone was exposed. I thought for sure I was gonna loose it and it was so bloody and messy, that on the way to the ER, I nearly puked on myself! I couldn't quit gagging and it was making my wife cry and gag at the same time. What a couple of bumbling idiots we were :lol:
> 
> Still, I have no feeling in that finger from the 2nd knuckle down to the tip. I'm lucky it's completely useable and have about 90% of my range of motion in the finger.


You need descent range in the middle finger for the old one finger salute! :grin:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

They've done it to the GSD, the Lab, the Golden. The mal is only a matter of time. That's what happens to the flavor of the month.

DFrost


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

If people want show dogs, let them have show dogs for christ's sake. My guess is... that guy LOVES his dog and would HATE his dog if it acted like working Mals. Who cares. Live and let live.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

There but for the grace of god...

Before I got Ronan, all I knew was that I wanted a Malinois. Part of that was because I wanted a breed that was still bred for work. I didn't know anything about lines or titles or how to find a good breeder. 

When I contacted the breeder I got my mal from he sent me back an email saying 'I breed too much dog for what you want' He may have been right, but then he sent me another email a few weeks later saying he had a pup for me - one that would be suited to a pet home. He turned out to be a good dog for me... enough to be a challenge and to make me realize that I wanted more.

It could have gone the other way... I could have contacted a showline breeder with a lot of pretty letters after the dogs' names and gotten an easy going Mal that would have suited me just as well as Ronan does. It wouldn't have been nearly as much fun and I wouldn't be here... but such is life.

Sometimes people just want the pretty wrapping on the package, and don't care what's inside and sometimes they want the whole deal.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Yeah but as stated by Chris, the Mal is NOT pretty so what pretty wrapping are we talking about? How many breeds are far more appealing to look at than the Mal? Most! If they can't work, they are useless, not even good lawn ornaments.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Um, to each his own? I happen to think they are beautiful, although I prefer the darker colored workingline dogs to the showdogs who are light fawn and look like the mask is painted on. Even if people say "es el coyote" about them... :razz: :lol:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> Um, to each his own? I happen to think they are beautiful, although I prefer the darker colored workingline dogs to the showdogs who are light fawn and look like the mask is painted on. Even if people say "es el coyote" about them... :razz: :lol:



My mal is was looking pretty today. I didn't even think to use a camera. DOH.

I heard a yelp when he came in through to dog door and when I went to see what it was, he had four cactus balls stuck in his head. I figure he must have been chasing a lizard or something.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Chris you asked who would buy a show line Malinois (an idiot who didn't do his homework and doesn't give a shit that this is and should always be a working dog first). To me the question should be what to do with the assholes who are breeding them....tar & feather then run them out on a rail might be a start.[-o<

Maybe the working Mali breeders should take a page out of the working Border Collie breeders play book.

PS WTF is up with the smilies on this site?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Maybe the working Mali breeders should take a page out of the working Border Collie breeders play book.


What does it say on that page?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not to answer for susan but the working BC folks want nothing to do with the AKC show BC. If a BC is dual registered in both the AKC and the working Border Collie Club (BCCA?0 and that dog earns a Championship in the AKC breed ring the BCCA will drop it from it's registration. 
The JRTCA (Jack Russell Terrier Club of America) wont even allow dual registered dogs. When the JRT was recognized by the AKC the JRTCA forced through litigation to even change the name of the breed in order to separate themselves from the AKC.
The AKC JRT is now called the Parson Russell Terrier. They have even changed the standards to better suit the show dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If I were to buy a dog on looks alone, I'd choose a breed that showed it could function as a dog from its very appearance. 

I like the look of the Malinois because of its athletic, muscle-packed appearance which is well visible due to the short coat. 

I stopped going to shows a long time ago when I realised that especially long coats, non-functionary body types that had to be dragged around the ring as if going to the slaughter house were sought out as winners by the show judges. Cow-hocked individuals got first place, and, and, and.

If they were all made to follow the breed standards to a "T", there wouldn't be many dogs at the shows but the show judges have forgotten what a breed standard is, I think and make up their own ideals.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm coming around on the way Mals looks but I'll never get over how they pretty much look like a shepherd mix that was picked up from an adoption pen outside of petsmart.

If we're going on looks, for me, nothing beats the look of a good looking rottweiler. I love the big heads, calm demeanor and middle linebacker look. I nice one has a swagger to how he walks. Every Mal I have seen, including mine, moves in in a quick and very precise way but it comes of being herky jerky and not graceful. Its like a souped up performance car that looks like it doesn't belong on the streets. It looks like it has purpose somewhere else but looks like shit. Everyone says they are like the ferrari but a nice ferrari will catch my eye when it smoothly crusies by.

I dunno, I'm not dissing on Mals really because they have quickly become my favorite breed and in many ways it's kind of nice having a dog that nobody knows about or if they have seen one it's associated with the police and then they take you seriously because of the dog.

If I were gonna walk down a dark alley and knew I was going to get into a fight, I would bring a trained Mal. But I were gonna walk down that same alley trying to avoid a fight I would bring the Rott. Rotts just look mean and look like they could kick some ass even though most can't, but that's a different thread


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Not to answer for susan but the working BC folks want nothing to do with the AKC show BC. If a BC is dual registered in both the AKC and the working Border Collie Club (BCCA?0 and that dog earns a Championship in the AKC breed ring the BCCA will drop it from it's registration.
> The JRTCA (Jack Russell Terrier Club of America) wont even allow dual registered dogs. When the JRT was recognized by the AKC the JRTCA forced through litigation to even change the name of the breed in order to separate themselves from the AKC.
> The AKC JRT is now called the Parson Russell Terrier. They have even changed the standards to better suit the show dogs.


Thanks Bob, that's what I was talking about regarding the BC. I didn't know why the AKC had renamed the JRT, but what the JRTCA club did was an even better move.

As far as "live and let live" well I have always believed form follows function. When you breed for the show ring, purpose goes out the window and form begins to follow fads. Look what the Weinerau Brothers influence did to the West German high lines GSD. Look at the travesty we call the ASS (American Show Shepherd). Do you get how hard working line GSD breeders have to work just to try to hold on to what the breed is supposed to be? The money is with show lines, regardless of the breed. So no, I don't think in the case of breeds that people are passionate about preserving everyone needs to "live and let live".

Regarding "pretty". Pretty is as pretty does.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If I were to buy a dog on looks alone, I'd choose a breed that showed it could function as a dog from its very appearance.
> 
> I like the look of the Malinois because of its athletic, muscle-packed appearance which is well visible due to the short coat.
> 
> ...


I think you are 100% right, Gillian, well said. I too appreciate the Malinois for many things including the refreshing lack of the pointless accoutremon all show line breeders (regardless of breed) find so important.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Not to answer for susan but the working BC folks want nothing to do with the AKC show BC. If a BC is dual registered in both the AKC and the working Border Collie Club (BCCA?0 and that dog earns a Championship in the AKC breed ring the BCCA will drop it from it's registration.
> The JRTCA (Jack Russell Terrier Club of America) wont even allow dual registered dogs. When the JRT was recognized by the AKC the JRTCA forced through litigation to even change the name of the breed in order to separate themselves from the AKC.
> The AKC JRT is now called the Parson Russell Terrier. They have even changed the standards to better suit the show dogs.


I think this is a great thing to do for any of the real working breeds. As first and foremost the 'work' in these breeds needs to be preserved. 

Not taking anything away from people who work at conformation. But I just don't see the point of what has happened to many working breeds because of warped conformation ideals and unethical breeding to get them to that point. 

To me the only way to do that is to wrestle the rights of breed registration from clubs based around the Conformation crowd like the AKC and CKC. As those bodies members did not do the GSD and other working breeds any favours the past 60 years in North America. 

The Working/Sporting Malinois needs an organization like the http://www.americanbordercollie.org/ to protect the Working Malinois from the conformation pretty dog in the eye of the beholder BS crap that is all the rage .. 

There is a group that touts themselves http://www.workingmalinois.org/ _It is the intent of the AWMA to preserve proper working ability and soundness in character and structure through the promotion of schutzhund/IPO training, seminars, and working trials._ 

But it really looks to me that they don't actively support Herding, SAR, PSDs or and any of the Ringsport venues and are focused on IPO/SchH.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Yeah but as stated by Chris, the Mal is NOT pretty so what pretty wrapping are we talking about? How many breeds are far more appealing to look at than the Mal? Most! If they can't work, they are useless, not even good lawn ornaments.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  

I like the look of the Mal in all their basic, utilitarian pointyness. 

The 'pretty wrapping' was mostly a reference to any breed, like the Golden Retriever, Lab, Border Collie, GSD, JRT, whatever flavour of the month breed, that others here have mentioned, that are no longer bred for working ability, but are bred for looks and for people who want an easy to handle dog. Lots of pet owner out there.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

just my 2 cents worth: my Mom and Dad bred Beagles when i was just a baby girl (their fault i'm still into dogs, btw), but i remember one or both of them telling me, even way back then, that the downfall of a breed as far as it's working ability was concerned, could be reliably predicted by it's popularity with the public.

an inverse relationship, ie, the more popular the breed w/the public, the worse the breed's ability to perform it's original function would be."SOME" years later, and i have watched this phenomenom for those same "SOME" years--well, Mom and Dad were exactly right. saw it coming.

you Mal fans better hope no-one ever makes a Disney movie w/a Mal as the star or you are really F***ked. with the capital "F", btw....look at my beloved GSD breed..


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The term you are looking for is "proper ****ed". : )


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Regarding the JRTCA JRT. 
They wont register a litter. Each pup can only be registered individually at one yr old AFTER it has passed a physical and doesn't have any of the physical (health)falts that are carried in the breed. Not a lot, but a few. 
These faulty dogs can be "recorded" but not registered. That allows them to participate in JRTCA activities. 

Ann, 
The show line Beagle has to walk around the ring with a happy attitude (no problem) but you'll never see a show Beagle go around the ring with it's nose to the ground. It just wont win in the breed ring. 
Now tell me! How many good beagles even know how to walk without their nose on the ground?! :grin: ;-)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

jeff--i stand corrected "proper F****ed" would be appropriate in some circles, but consider the source here: a bastard mix of upper NY stateXIllinois, raised in WI and IN, with 15+ yrs in Nebraska. kinda makes even ME sick to my stomach typing it!!

bob--the best conformatiaon dog my parents bred would chase a butterfly--she went to Grampa's, spayed. i remember another dog they bred who won in the "ring", took a bite at someone (i was little), the dog died by "22" if i recall correctly. 

i wish Mom and Dad were alive today so i could ask them the "hard" questions like "how does a Beagle win in the ring with it's nose in the air?" betcha Dad would've said something like "if it can't run with the big dogs, it better stay on the porch", or "if it can't/won't track the dog ahead of it in the ring, better cull it". he had NO USE for a Beagle that wouldn't hunt. period.

maybe that's why he quit breeding them. either that, or he was too busy breeding his eight kids, or a combination of both  ?? (tho he really should've quit after kid #3..).

lastly--is there such a thing as a good Beagle in this country??? by your def, which happens to be mine, BTW..can we continue this discussion to a "good" cocker spaniel/irish setter/lab...GSD????


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

maybe part of the problem is the stupid judges?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> There is a group that touts themselves http://www.workingmalinois.org/ _It is the intent of the AWMA to preserve proper working ability and soundness in character and structure through the promotion of schutzhund/IPO training, seminars, and working trials._
> 
> But it really looks to me that they don't actively support Herding, SAR, PSDs or and any of the Ringsport venues and are focused on IPO/SchH.


 Geoff, I think you need to look a little deeper. The AWMA sends Mondio, agility and IPO teams to the Malinois world championships. The AWMA has also reached out to French Ring and hopes to have a ring event in conjunction with the AWMA nationals. SAR and PSD organizations have also been contacted but none have shown a serious interest. 

If you or anyone else has ideas on how the AWMA can do more to help the Malinois, let me know and I will make sure that the board hears all of your suggestions.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Personally I don’t think that the existence of showline Malinois has very much negative influence on the workingline dog. And both groups tend to do their own thing and stay out of each others way. I hope we can have a situation like the workingline GSD and the American GSD. Both of these groups seem to love their type of GSD and they have very little strife (internet warriors excluded). Everyone seems happy with their dogs, no matter how much they think the other groups dogs suck. 


Sure we could demonize showlines and do something similar to the JRT and Border Collie people but then we would end up just like them. Two separate groups in senseless strife and fighting. Neither group is able to put their best efforts forward because so much time and energy is expended trying to undo each other. Now, in the Malinois world, we have two separate groups that ignore, tolerate and or get along with each other. Why stir the muck? Anyway the Border and JRT was not about the dogs. It was about people protecting their "turf".


Also many people want a dog that looks like and has the reputation of Malinois. They are going to get it no matter what we do. Why not give them a source for the type of dogs they want so they don’t end up with dogs that are too much for them and become a menace? Let them have a relatively high nerve threshold, low drive dog that they can deal with easily and still gives them the ego stroke of having a Malinois.


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## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

Christopher,

Do you have any info on the status of a AWMA sponsored DMC-style Korung? I know there was some discussion on it at one point, but haven't heard anything recently.

Thanks.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Hi John,

The breed test is on the back burner for now. There have been too many other things that have taken priority. 

I personally have a great interest in making an evaluation tool for AWMA breeders. But I don’t think that a mandatory DMC style program will work in the US. Hell, I don’t really like the way the DMC program works in Germany. But I would like to see a standardized working evaluation that could be video taped along with physical description of the dog. That way the members could see for themselves what a dog is like when breeding or puppy buying. 

If any AWMA members would like to help out on a project like this please send me an email. We could really use a tech/computer/webmaster type to make this project happen. 



BTW, It's AWMA dues renewal time. And it's only 30 bucks!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Personally I don’t think that the existence of showline Malinois has very much negative influence on the workingline dog. And both groups tend to do their own thing and stay out of each others way. I hope we can have a situation like the workingline GSD and the American GSD. Both of these groups seem to love their type of GSD and they have very little strife (internet warriors excluded). Everyone seems happy with their dogs, no matter how much they think the other groups dogs suck.
> 
> 
> Sure we could demonize showlines and do something similar to the JRT and Border Collie people but then we would end up just like them. Two separate groups in senseless strife and fighting. Neither group is able to put their best efforts forward because so much time and energy is expended trying to undo each other. Now, in the Malinois world, we have two separate groups that ignore, tolerate and or get along with each other. Why stir the muck? Anyway the Border and JRT was not about the dogs. It was about people protecting their "turf".
> ...


Christopher: I don't know. On the one hand, what you say regarding the Malinois makes sense to me, especially considering the AKC registration ranking statistics. I realize what is happening with the Malinois is not the same as what has happened with the other breeds (GSD, BC, JRT). It doensn't look like the public is suddenly Malinois crazed, which is what happened with the other breeds. 

On the other hand, if there were some new Disney movie with a sweet talking hero Malinois in it, breed popularity would spike and the results of that spke would not be pretty. I would imagine if that were to happen, the working Mali breeders would want to take steps to preserve the breed, just as the BC and JRT people have done.

AKC ranking statistics (breed popularity)

http://www.akc.org/reg/dogreg_stats.cfm 
1998 #91
2003 #96
2007 #79
2008 #77


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Hey, Christopher!

As long as you're answering questions re the AWMA, IF a Terv or Groen would somehow be good enough to go to the FMBB championship (quit laughing), would the AWMA send it? Or is it strictly a Mal organization now? I seem to remember a picture a long time ago of board members of the AWMA and I'd swear one of them was Leslie B. Would it kill you guys to allow all Belgian varieties to play in your national championship?

As far as the AKC registrations, I don't think that is very telling. Maybe it's all working line dogs who want to go to the championships.  Maybe that accounts for the popularity increase. As Christopher said, it seems the groups co-exist just fine.

Laura
P.S. I only have GSD now.


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