# Bare Naked Wilderness Searching..



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Now that I have your attention..8) 

Nancy's comment about briars in another post reminded me of a question I have.

How many of you search your dogs without collars or vests in off leash wilderness searches with lots of brush?


----------



## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Never with out a collar, I use auroa light for night time and an orange for daylight. I remove vest and lead when searching unless its urban or an area with loose dogs.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

When I was working with Cyra (offlead trailing + air scent) she wore a vest and she never seemed to get caught for too long. Always have a snug hunting collar with the flat ring and no tags on the dog. 

I also have an aurorlites collar and it WILL come off if snagged (of course they are not cheap collars and my battery pack has a pretty bad tear in it from a barbed wire fence)

After this weekend with Grim - it was not the briars but farm implements that gave me cause to worry - he does not hesitate to crawl up under farm equipment or in piles of downed trees etc. so I am looking for an elastic collar for his bell that he can wrestle out of if need be (the ones they sell with reflective bands are too tight) ---------------he really needs a bell even though he is cadaver because it is very easy to lose sight of him (think heavy brush, kudzu).


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"Now that I have your attention.." That's just wrong in so many ways. ha ha.


My cadaver dog wears a harness, no other collar. The track dog (bloodhound) is not worked off leash, he's on a harness as well. 

DFrost


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

David, have you ever had the harness get bad caught? I have used a basic patrol harness - really I have mixed it up some between that and a bell collar (the auroralites so I know that will release). He knows when I say "sit" and "wheredego" to get to work. ................I am not sure just how important cueing clothes are?

____________________________________________

Grim seems to delight in crawling under things to get to source, on his belly with his legs out behind him and jumps on things too without any prompting so I have held my breath more than a few times -- If he is offlead he won't work around anything but always goes through it so I have actually cut HIM out of the briars but the vest was not caught. 

Example ws the day with the sliding board where my husband placed an unknown in the base of a tubular twisty slide and he hit scent on the other side - instead of working around the slide to get to source he went up the ladder, down the slide and knocked it out onto the ground and alerted.......that kind of oblivious to obstacles/danger kind of thing.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Interesting...I am still new to the wilderness profile.

In our avalanche profile most dogs are vested and collars removed with a search command (association).

I personally do not remove the collar for winter searching (as a pup he would stuggle and bite to get away when we used to do runaways, so I just did not bother removing it). He does not need the association of the vest or the collar removal to work.

Loosing a dog on an avalanche is not likely of course. In a wilderness search it could be a possibility.

I use this collar with a brass ID plate:
http://www.gundogsupply.com/-1654-.html

What are these collars you are all speaking of?

Last summer I was using his vest and he got a sharp stick between the vest and himself and got stuck at quite a speed. He definatly yelped, both by surprise and I am sure it hurt though he was uninjured.

Now I judge the cover and don't use the vest too much. Some terrain I would even think of removing the collar as I have seen him have some leaves and such get stuck in there. I have never had his collar come off yet. I guess it is a probabibility X consequence decision.

I also started using a bell at the end of the year, just attatched to the O ring of the safety collar. You can see it in this picture (he is not working in the photo)
http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/farwesttoller/?action=view&current=lickinlips.jpg

Is there a better way, better products? Do you all have pictures or links?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Interesting...I am still new to the wilderness profile.I use this collar with a brass ID plate:
> http://www.gundogsupply.com/-1654-.html
> 
> What are these collars you are all speaking of?
> ...


Same collar only with plastic coating ............hunting dogs wear them


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

No ma'am, he's never been hung up. That includes heavy briars and the dreaded kutzu. I never leave any type of collar on him though. If safety requires, the leash is a 30 foot piece of discarded rapel line. It will snake through most anything without getting tangled. Rarely used, but it is handy to have along.

DFrost


----------



## sharon E. Sansom (Feb 23, 2008)

Anyone who has searched the woods of Florida knows how wicked the vines can be. For that reason there are times that I have worked my HRD dog "naked". I have also removed Lexi's harness at times. Other than these dense wood times I usually work Lexi in her SEARCH harness as our area is quite well travelled, even the woods and further out areas. My area search dog usually works with a bell collar on too. We combined the "Jingle bell" christmas collars with a single larger bell and it works really well. Lexi ranges like crazy so the bells really work. I also love my Aurora lite collar. There are still times that they are not marked well enough. I was using Lexi on an urban trail (she is not cert but works these beautifully) shift change with LE backup and the next thing I know this stupid woman has her patrol car spot light shinning right in my dogs face across the parking lot. I hear her on the radio asking "Is that the SAR K9?".....hmm lets see SEARCH harness, lit collar attatched but a long leash to a handler in a yellow SAR jacket followed by a second person in a SAR jacket and a back up truck(bad neighbourhood).....ya think?!!! Sometimes you just cant get enough gear on them!


----------



## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Not only the vegetation in the central zone of the country is mainly acacias full 3 inch thorns, but also barbed wire is a huge problem. sometimes we don't use collar, it's very much on the handler and the dog, but the dog almost always wear vest. Lots of hunters around

As a safety measure the vest are attached with Velcro in a way that if the dogs get tangled it just get loose.

As we are in topic... in heavily brushed areas I like to put bells on the collar. Hoy many of you do?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Yes to bells. I think it helps notify wild animals of your presence and sure helps to locate the dog. I would love a beeper collar - thought of Astro GPS but the stupid thing won't interface with Maptech. The beeper collars look like they would not get hung up and you can have them beep differently when the dog is still...........................

You also get to where you can tell from the rhythm of the bell what is going on..........


----------



## sharon E. Sansom (Feb 23, 2008)

Any of you guy's ever tried the combination of the Christmas bell collars plus the larger single bell. Not only is the combination slightly louder but we have discovered on demo's with children that the kids really like the jingle bells. Since many of us work GSD's and they can be intimidating to a smaller child the jingle bell sound seems to relax them a little and we figure any help we can get to have the child not run from the dogs is a good thing. The larger collars with the larger bells work really well, I order a few each christmas and have them stockpiled in case they stop making them. The bells are mounted on a regular buckle collar not the elastic poofy thing so they are quite functional.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We could have a whole discussion on bells 

I like this kind

http://www.crownpointkennels.com/store/dog_bells.htm
The medium brass bell

They have the rubber coated collars too - in the 23" size (harder to find) - not bad $6 with nameplate.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I like them without the D ring. Under 5 bucks with brass ID plate. 
http://www.gundogsupply.com/-110d-.html

Nancy thanks for that bell link those are great!!! I just started using one last summer and I find it useful. I use it not only for searching, but also when hiking with the dog. Only problem is I find it quite annoying when we are not working..... 

I was using a pretty crappy bell I found around my house. I like the ones you posted MUCH better. Geesh, and to think I thought I was running out of crap to buy the dog;-)


----------



## Kim Gilmore (Feb 18, 2008)

I can't be the only one out there that finds bells completely irritating. Yes, they DO help in keeping track of the dog, but in our terrain that would only work if they were within 100 feet of you before dips, ravines or vegetation swallowed up the sound. Then I have to consider the dog...he is using his ears as well as nose to locate the victim and if forced to listen to the clanging of bells on his collar for 6 hours I wouldn't blame him if he wanted to bite me :neutral: !

Have seen people fix a pocket to the back of the shabrack that 2-3 jingle bells would fit into. Far enough away from the dogs head that it doesn't interfere with their aural capacity, yet allows the handler to hear them. THAT I might consider, but haven't found it necessary as my guy is a pretty good ranging dog who tends to check back with me every 10 minutes or so. I DO have a bell on my trekking stick more for him to locate ME than me having the need to locate him. My job is to keep the lions, tigers and bears at bay. Besides, I take pride in handling what my victims refer to as "Stealth Terv". Flies under the radar and is quick and efficient . For night ops, they do wear a lightstick on their vests. Have an auroralight collar and just can't see it in his fur.

That said, our dogs wear shabracks that have velcro closures. If they get caught up in timber/brush/fencing, they can rip out of them. I do keep a collar on my guy but it is a limited slip so that if it gets caught on something, won't strangle him. The only thing he owns that is not a quick release is his trailing harness and I NEVER cut him loose (sans trailing lead) while the harness is on as there is no way he could get out of it should it get caught. If I need to let him loose to complete a problem, the harness comes off as well.

For as necessary as it is for the dogs to wear bright colors (year around) here (poachers, for identification, etc.) for wilderness work, he is equally comfortable working nekkid if need be. He is au natural in disaster, building searches, junkyard searches and if for some reason we need to go "undercover" (cadaver searches).


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Kim, value your insight and experience. Like anything, there are pros and cons for the collars.


Cons
May get caught in brush (Has anyone actually have this happen)
Annoying 
May impair dogs hearing

Pros
May deter wildlife
May attract victim's attention
Help in location (particularly night searches)
Help in reading the dog when you can't see them (rhythm of bell)
May keep dog on task (cuing reminder- but I would not want a dog that *needed* something like this)
Helpful in communication during training (subject can report back when they hear the bell)

So just some ideas


----------



## Kim Gilmore (Feb 18, 2008)

Our terrain, quite literally, is thick enough that we tend not to encourage a bark indication at the victim as a final response as you just would not hear it unless almost on top of the dog/victim, then you only hope you are heading the correct direction due to the possibility of echo's.

So, bells would be swallowed up sound-wise as well. Am not saying they don't serve a purpose and the list you provided was rather inclusive, we just don't choose to use them on the dogs as it is just one more thing to keep track of (however, the handlers all have bells on their trekking sticks or on their packs so the dogs can find US, which, for all practical purposes extends to the victims hearing us crashing through the timber like crazed reindeer. On my trekking stick, I have the power to extinguish the jingle if I need a moment of silence).

You bring up a valid point as far as animal deterrant. Maybe I am just lucky in that the only thing that I have ever had a close call with is a rather amorous (maybe he was pissed off) bull (cadaver search that extended across a farmers property). Dogs tend to shorten their range considerably when we hit bear and lion smell. Seem to ignore coyote, wolf and fox (might see increase marking behavior from the boys). Deer are just pests any way that you look at it. I count my blessings that we haven't hit an elk or moose in rut yet (another handler did gert stomped by a VERY large buck in rut while out laying me a trail one night and a fellow K9 team did go out after a photographer that was killed by a less than patient bull moose. Almost more afraid of them than the grizz's!).

Bells do serve a purpose, not arguing that fact in the least. We just don't tend to use them up here.

Kim Gilmore


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have seen the same experience with bark alerts - the terrain messes with sound in a great way. I have certainly "lost" the bell before and that is where I would really like an Astro (I would consider trying to get one if the unit would communicate with Maptech - just to document coverage -) 

I had the same experience with, I think, a bear or a cat, -- only time in his life I have seen my dog hackle, flatten his ears, and move real slowly (and he has been exposed to full partial decomp body) -- and he got real close to me (he typically ranges wide unless he has been asked to detail (cadaver dog).


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nice to have some differing opinions!

I did mention that I find the bell annoying!

People carry bells hiking around here..they call them "bear bells"....

We call them "dinner bells" 8) 

There is that joke about how you can tell a black bear from a grizzly bear from their poop....the black bear poop smells like pepper (ate someone with pepper spay) and the griz poo has bells in it (ate someone with bear bells) :lol: 

They may help some animals know a dog/person is comming, but I would not call them a deterent by any means...I think of it more for telling ground squirrels to get in their holes.  I have seen heards of elk, deer, bear, moose and so on while hiking with people/dogs with bells.

I had never thought of Kim's idea of the handler having the bell and it helping the dog to find the handler.... so cool to be able to hear about how everyone uses different tools...

Knowing your dog's behavior around wildlife is definatley an asset. I get most of my info on this kind of stuff from spending lots of time in the wilderness with my dog outside of searching. For example my dog does not show any response to bear scent for example. So I do not get a super early warning there. We have not yet met them on searches, but walk around fresh bear scent/tracks/droppings all the time, and have run into them with the dog as well. I did have a large buck walk run up and stop between the dog and I on open ground on a practice search once....

From the sounds of things (no pun inteded :wink your dogs have more range than mine. Especially once we have settled into a longer search in tough ground. A fresher track or good scent cone would definatley get the dog pretty darned far from me, but I see my dog more than once every ten minutes for sure. Someone has to have that crappy dog with no range, a bark alert, retrieving articles "gasp" and so on... ](*,) :wink: Ahhh so much for me to learn!

Kim, I loved the mental image of the "Stealth Terv"! I can just picture it!! 

Nancy thanks for the pros and cons list...

I appreciate the twist and turns of this thread and when we get on to summer searching I look forward to paying attention to some details I just started to investigate at the end of last season (like the bells and naked searching..) Look forward to me picking the brain of you seasoned wilderness handlers more in the near future!


----------



## Kim Gilmore (Feb 18, 2008)

Nancy-

Do you have the capabilities of putting a GPS on your dog's vest to document coverage? I would tend to fear putting an Astro on our dogs due to the fact that getting the collar hung up on timber/downfall/underbrush is a concern (and unlike hunting dogs who are primarily hunting fields, our dogs are in heavy timber which is hard on the antennae). However, we do put the Garmin eTrex's on our dog and lately have also been playing with the Garmin Rino's where we have the "ping" feature which allows us to see where a certain GPS unit is. They also make what's called a TrackStick (on webmail right now so don't have the url) that is the size of a flashdrive stick that can be downloaded on a satellite map. Thinking as soon as I have an extra few $$ that I am going to invest in one of these to lighten the load up on my boy's vest (we have pockets custom made and balanced on their shabracks that allow for the GPS's).

Have been more than thrilled with what the little eTrex's have given us as far as coverage info and usually download both the dogs as well as the handlers AND the flankers units so we can see what the coverage is in an area. Our Command has the capability and equipment necessary to do this right on site as soon as the team comes in from the field so we can determine POD and whether another team needs to go into certain sectors.

Kim Gilmore


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Kim, I do have a foretrex that I have played with on his harness. I have had some problems with getting an attachment that won't come off though. ......... they do make pockets for the harness though ----but I hate having something sticking out. May have to get more creative. 

I have had some reception problems with the foretrex (which is an etrex, and is WAAS, but does not have sirf star) in the mountains or heavy brush. It is better than my first generation eTrex by a long shot but not as good as the 60CSX) ........ The trackstick sounds interesting. ... I also carry a foretrex strapped to my backpack shoulder strap or radio harness depending on what I am wearing) -

- [I had to go out and buy an adapter for my current comptuer though ........ it does not have any serial ports! just USB] 

The etrex also throws random spurious data so sometimes have to do cleanup in Easy GPS (actually I like to save the files there because there is more information listed for each data point and the data file is smaller) then import into maptech.

I did leave it on after a search about 4 hours away. I was amazed that it even kept up with the side of the interstate I was on and pulling into parking lots at two exits --- pretty neat for the long run.

Found the trackstick -- http://www.trackstick.com/ Not cheap though

I am sure it won't be long before cheap RFID solutions are readily available.


----------

