# Pushing Too Far



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

As decoys and handlers, we all want to get the most from our training sessions. I have been there in the past when the lesson went TOO FAR. Instead to 4 o 5 nice barks in the Schutzhund B&H, it seemed like it went on for hours....

For the purposes of forum discussion, how do you know when your dog is just too tired to play the game or do one more of anything? The mind fried is a bad thing to waste!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Take your training to the point in the lesson where you ask your self if the dog can do better at this point if the answer is no end it.
Next lesson take it a bit further before the dog is gassed.
It comes down to knowing the dog.I think every one who is trying to get the most out of there dog at some point goes to far not a bad thing. However if you do it every time or to often even the best training is shit.
The important thing in teaching is being clear and balance.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> As decoys and handlers, we all want to get the most from our training sessions. I have been there in the past when the lesson went TOO FAR. Instead to 4 o 5 nice barks in the Schutzhund B&H, it seemed like it went on for hours....
> 
> For the purposes of forum discussion, how do you know when your dog is just too tired to play the game or do one more of anything? The mind fried is a bad thing to waste!


One of my major faults is working a dog too long. The dog will shut down. However, now there is a second problem, I know that if I just quit, the dog will learn to shut down in order to end a training session.

So I allow the dog to completely shut down and work the dog through it. As soon as the dog is recovered, I JACKPOT and end the session. I think it is important to recover the session and end on a HIGH note.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Take your training to the point in the lesson where you ask your self if the dog can do better at this point if the answer is no end it.
> Next lesson take it a bit further before the dog is gassed.
> It comes down to knowing the dog.I think every one who is trying to get the most out of there dog at some point goes to far not a bad thing. However if you do it every time or to often even the best training is shit.
> The important thing in teaching is being clear and balance.


I should add I have never found the place where my dog has ever come close to shutting down he will never give up.
Quality is lost.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> As decoys and handlers, we all want to get the most from our training sessions. I have been there in the past when the lesson went TOO FAR. Instead to 4 o 5 nice barks in the Schutzhund B&H, it seemed like it went on for hours....
> 
> For the purposes of forum discussion, how do you know when your dog is just too tired to play the game or do one more of anything? The mind fried is a bad thing to waste!


IF the dog shows understanding and willingness, but then the rate of successful performance goes down, then it's time to switch.

I should add that if a dog is watched carefully and the session is switched up, many dogs can train for an hour or more without any issue. It's when one behavior is rehearsed for too long - especially if there is confusion - that there is a problem.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I like sticking to a “rule of 3” three repetitions tends to be the perfect number for any exercise. If a dog comes out and does perfect on the first repetition… good enough… love him up, go play, and put him up. The issue I see isn’t so much a dog shutting down after long repetitions but that many dogs we see start to get too worked up the longer you go, especially with bitework. 
I’ve watched dogs (especially Mals) give you three great outs… then someone wants to see if they can get a fourth or a fifth…. And it always starts to get real sloppy at that point. The dog ends up being put up or rewarded for sloppy performance and it becomes a downward spiral. Often times less is truly more.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Love the rule of threes. We live by it.

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Matt excellent point and one I must remember! Sometimes you fall into the trap of doing one more because it was SOOOOOO good. The problem is now your dog is overloaded and can't find closure ...over the edge. Thanks for the 3s...


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Another reason for the rule of three's I was taught is that as you tire you are more sloppy in most physical things, dog or human. The longer you push an exercise the more likely you are to start bad habits.

It also seems dogs retain the last thing done on a field very well, so if you stop at three and it was correct, you increase the chances the next training, or apprehension will start up with the correct form.

Butch Cappel 
k9ps.com


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I learned this similarly. As soon as the dog does the exercise correctly, stop.

We had the dog out for maybe 5 minutes and when the exercise was ok, back into the box. If the dog suffered some stress during training the exercise it doesn't affect the next one. He comes out fresh again and ready to concentrate.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I’ve watched dogs (especially Mals) give you three great outs… then someone wants to see if they can get a fourth or a fifth…. And it always starts to get real sloppy at that point. The dog ends up being put up or rewarded for sloppy performance and it becomes a downward spiral. Often times less is truly more.

****ing cops, when you going to learn to train the out ??? LOL My dog is brilliant at training. (lets not talk about trialing quite yet :-$ )


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ****ing cops, when you going to learn to train the out ??? LOL My dog is brilliant at training. (lets not talk about trialing quite yet :-$ )


You talk about how important the "helper" is; our "helpers" don't always cease movement when the out command is given. Sometimes our "helpers" shoot back while the dog is biting. Our (my program specifically) out is just fine thank you. 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I would rather have a dog too strong on the "out" than one which will not bite. Then there is the rebite issue. How many dogs will not do it unless the "bad guy" is running away? Little pressure in being prey!


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I would rather have a dog too strong on the "out" than one which will not bite. Then there is the rebite issue. How many dogs will not do it unless the "bad guy" is running away? Little pressure in being prey!


Re-bites are a big no-no unless on command. We spend a lot of time working decoy conflict on the down.


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