# Strong dominant dogs from HD free



## Gillian Schuler

Terrasita

This dog comes from HD free lines and is known as a hard dog:

Nando Lubarscher Schlösschen owned by Uwe Stolpe. These lines are HD free or "nearly negligible."
(sorry cannot translate so well).

There are many more but believe me, no one over here in Europe who is looking to enter IPO, KNPV, etc,
will be looking at dogs with poor to bad hips. How can they exceed in protection work?


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## Gillian Schuler

Gillian Schuler said:


> Terrasita
> 
> This dog comes from HD free lines and is known as a hard dog:
> 
> Nando Lubarscher Schlösschen owned by Uwe Stolpe. These lines are HD free or "nearly negligible."
> (sorry cannot translate so well).
> 
> There are many more but believe me, no one over here in Europe who is looking to enter IPO, KNPV, etc,
> will be looking at dogs with poor to bad hips. How can they exceed in protection work?


http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/de/welpen-und-hunde/welpen-hunde-andere/deckrueden.html


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## Marcel Winter

Is this the dog you mean? , can,t find the other Nando

www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/30368/Nando-von-den-Gnitzer-Höhen


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## Gillian Schuler

Yes, this is the dog I was talking about. However, there are many dogs from HD free lines.. I would never buy one that wasn't.


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## Marcel Winter

Gillian Schuler said:


> Yes, this is the dog I was talking about. However, there are many dogs from HD free lines.. I would never buy one that wasn't.


Good point.


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## Hunter Allred

Did I miss something? Was this part of a larger conversation?


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## Gillian Schuler

Marcel Winter said:


> Good point.
> 
> What I heard some nice studs kennel v/d Schiffslache


 Yes there are. Herbert Born is the kennel owner:


http://www.von-der-schiffslache.de/index home.html


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## Marcel Winter

Gillian Schuler said:


> Yes there are. Herbert Born is the kennel owner:
> 
> 
> http://www.von-der-schiffslache.de/index home.html


yep.


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## Gillian Schuler

Another one:

Vax vom Dunklen Zwinger:

Correct conformation without bloodline limitations 

Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Vax never ended his extremely hard-ridden protection trials. He was either disqualified for not outing at the last phase, once after a "Hammer Schutzdienst". He was also disqualified for a dominant and aggressive behaviour to the helper.

He is qualified for Universal Winner in Belgium. 

Report:

A very nice, compakt dog with an awesome presence. Extremely handler oriented, sure and dominant dog with very strong nerves and and lstrong grips. One man dog.

*Adapts well to "zivil".*

This may be one exceptional dog but there are others which underlines my posts over the years of saying that many, many breeders do not just breed to SV Standards.


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## Christopher Jones

There is no such thing as HD free lines. Every line throws HD and ED to varying degree. All GSD pedigrees show dogs in their 5 gen with good hips and elbows, that means nothing.


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Jones said:


> There is no such thing as HD free lines. Every line throws HD and ED to varying degree. All GSD pedigrees show dogs in their 5 gen with good hips and elbows, that means nothing.


It is a known fact that when a dog jumps to attack a helper, one can "assume" what sort of hips he has. It is not definitely conclusive but can give a good idea of the dog's hips. This was attested by my GSD's hips in training and confirmed by the official examination by a renowned German Veterinery Surgeon who proclaimed his hips to be IA.

I disagree that there is no such thing as HD free lines. 

Germany and Switzerland have proved this to be so. There maybe an odd HD dog which appears but when I looked at the "Dominant Dogs" in Germany, None of these had bad hips or bad spine results and there were many dogs of this caegoriy.

Looking "over the Pond" is maybe "work intensive" but useful!!


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## Gillian Schuler

Gillian Schuler said:


> It is a known fact that when a dog jumps to attack a helper, one can "assume" what sort of hips he has. It is not definitely conclusive but can give a good idea of the dog's hips. This was attested by my GSD's hips in training and confirmed by the official examination by a renowned German Veterinery Surgeon who proclaimed his hips to be IA.
> 
> I disagree that there is no such thing as HD free lines.
> 
> Germany and Switzerland have proved this to be so. There maybe an odd HD dog which appears but when I looked at the "Dominant Dogs" in Germany, None of these had bad hips or bad spine results and there were many dogs of this caegoriy.
> 
> Looking "over the Pond" is maybe "work intensive" but useful!!


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## Gillian Schuler

OK maybe not 100% HD free in each litter, but nearly so. At least, I would confidently buy from a line that shows HD free dogs for the last 5 or more generations.

Have done so before.


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## Michael Murphy

Christopher Jones said:


> There is no such thing as HD free lines. Every line throws HD and ED to varying degree. All GSD pedigrees show dogs in their 5 gen with good hips and elbows, that means nothing.


you do know this dog is the brother of Nivo, the farther of my ex GSD and lupo from brooksvale kennels. can't say they are extreme dominant dogs. what was your experience with lupo


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## Mark Sheplak

Gillian Schuler said:


> OK maybe not 100% HD free in each litter, but nearly so. At least, I would confidently buy from a line that shows HD free dogs for the last 5 or more generations.
> 
> Have done so before.


Gillian,

As Chris said, no line is truly HD free. 

Not that I think that the ZW score is the be all and end all, but Nando's score is only a 87, which isn't considered to an exceptionally low ZW score. If anything, the ZW scores are artificially low because there are no incentives to report bad hips. There are many other caveats here about ZW scores, but it does provide some limited information. 

As far as your comment about "HD Free" for 5 generations, you would have to define exactly what you mean by that since you aren't using a scientific term. 

For example, Yessy vom Bernsteintal (3rd generation for Nando) is rated noch zugelassen with a ZW of 112 that somewhat confirms the rating. I only know this because Yessy is also in the 4th generation of my dog (Dasha in the 3rd...also a high ZW of 104) as well. 

I am not a breeder, but I would steer clear of a nz rating for breeding. Obviously someone liked Yessy's working characteristics and bred her to dogs from better hip lines. In my dog's case, the 2nd and 1st generation dogs turned out just fine I assume to breeding choices (ZW = 82, 80) and my pup is 72 with a normal.


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## Gillian Schuler

So, Forget all that went before - where would you buy your GSDs??


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## Gillian Schuler

Mark Sheplak said:


> Gillian,
> 
> As Chris said, no line is truly HD free.
> 
> Not that I think that the ZW score is the be all and end all, but Nando's score is only a 87, which isn't considered to an exceptionally low ZW score. If anything, the ZW scores are artificially low because there are no incentives to report bad hips. There are many other caveats here about ZW scores, but it does provide some limited information.
> 
> As far as your comment about "HD Free" for 5 generations, you would have to define exactly what you mean by that since you aren't using a scientific term.
> 
> For example, Yessy vom Bernsteintal (3rd generation for Nando) is rated noch zugelassen with a ZW of 112 that somewhat confirms the rating. I only know this because Yessy is also in the 4th generation of my dog (Dasha in the 3rd...also a high ZW of 104) as well.
> 
> I am not a breeder, but I would steer clear of a nz rating for breeding. Obviously someone liked Yessy's working characteristics and bred her to dogs from better hip lines. In my dog's case, the 2nd and 1st generation dogs turned out just fine I assume to breeding choices (ZW = 82, 80) and my pup is 72 with a normal.


Back to 5 generations, I'm using the "Ahnentafel"??

Many of the dogs I have seen or mentioned are all HD / ED free, spine: ok.

Fnd me some Dogs that you consider good in the same condition.


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## Gillian Schuler

Gillian Schuler said:


> Another one:
> 
> Vax vom Dunklen Zwinger:
> 
> Correct conformation without bloodline limitations
> 
> Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Vax never ended his extremely hard-ridden protection trials. He was either disqualified for not outing at the last phase, once after a "Hammer Schutzdienst". He was also disqualified for a dominant and aggressive behaviour to the helper.
> 
> He is qualified for Universal Winner in Belgium.
> 
> Report:
> 
> A very nice, compakt dog with an awesome presence. Extremely handler oriented, sure and dominant dog with very strong nerves and and lstrong grips. One man dog.
> 
> *Adapts well to "zivil".*
> 
> This may be one exceptional dog but there are others which underlines my posts over the years of saying that many, many breeders do not just breed to SV Standards.



Has no one any comments to the dog in hand - doesn't seem to be a "washout".....


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Yeah but there can minimal HD after a concerted effort to get rid of it and stop adding it with fast normals and noch zuchs. Thanks for the info Gillian but any stats that can support HD status?


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## Mark Sheplak

Gillian Schuler said:


> Back to 5 generations, I'm using the "Ahnentafel"??
> 
> Many of the dogs I have seen or mentioned are all HD / ED free, spine: ok.
> 
> Fnd me some Dogs that you consider good in the same condition.


I was just commenting on your "HD free" lines statement. I have never heard of HD free in reference to genetics or a line. 

I have no personal experience with Nando or any of his offspring, so a comparison would be meaningless.


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## Joby Becker

HD free lines are non-existant in my mind in the GSD.

In order to claim HD FREE Status, every dog from every litter would have to xrayed and be shown to be HD free.

this does not only mean the dogs in the pedigree, it also means ALL of their relatives as well...


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## Brian McQuain

Joby Becker said:


> HD free lines are non-existant in my mind in the GSD.
> 
> In order to claim HD FREE Status, every dog from every litter would have to xrayed and be shown to be HD free.
> 
> this does not only mean the dogs in the pedigree, it also means ALL of their relatives as well...


 
Yup


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## Bob Scott

My older GSD has always been very agile and a nice smooth jumper. 
He was x-rayed at 2 yrs old and has Moderate HD. 
Nothing ever showed until he was about 9.
Now he's having a little trouble getting in and out of my small car and even getting up from the ground on some days. 
Without those early X-rays you would have sworn he had great hips in his younger days. 
Sch III, CDX, HT, TT, CGC, SAR trained in HR both land and water, article search, live find.

In dog yrs (10) he's close to my age now so I totally understand why he's slowed down. :grin: :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

As Bob said, I would never assume from the work that the dog is healthy. I have a 6 year old bitch in my training group that has hips out of the sockets and has since she was a year old--moderate HD. I just looked at her repeat films and there has been little to no progression. She has excellent structure and musculature and we are very careful regarding how we work her. She's been on osteo bi flex for the last three years. My HD/ED bitch that did a fair amount of herding in pastures was asymptomatic until age 5. However, on a theoretical level, GSDs are riddled with HD and ED in terms of gene pool because of holding on to that baby and bathwater theory. Just had this discussion on FB where they openly admit to utilizing the SV because you can submit those early x-rays and the SV will certify dysplastic. OFA won't certify DJD 1 elbows, but the SV will give it a fast normal. When I pointed out how the bitch that was bred for three litters produced or what happens when you line breed, or that we don't know the anatomical basis for the SV noch zuch or fast normal ratings, they deleted the thread.

Gillian I'd love to know your basis for "HD free" and yes a list of the many with the pedigree links.

T


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## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> you do know this dog is the brother of Nivo, the farther of my ex GSD and lupo from brooksvale kennels. can't say they are extreme dominant dogs. what was your experience with lupo


Lupo was a good dog. Not dominate at all, but worked through his drive. He just had really good nerves and was quite robust and bounced back well. He is the best thing I have heard of from Nivo, infact proberbly the best GSD I have heard of for awhile. But for every Lupo there 20 like your one.


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## Gillian Schuler

There are breeders in Germany and Switzerland who only breed from HD free dogs and have been doing so for the many years. Maybe my use of "HD free lines" was too sweeping.

There are breeders who would be allowed to use "nearly normal" or "noch zugelassen" but refuse to do so and will only use "A" normal. 
Given the opinion on here, I wonder why so many people buy from Germany or Switzerland. I cannot speak for the other countries in Europe.

To officially breed a DSH, the hips have to be X-Rayed and if they do not meet the SV / RSV requirements, a breeding cannot take place, or, in the case of the black sheep breeders, their litters will not be recorded and therefore no red papers issued.

Zender Lusondai's pedigree stretches back to before 1988 with HD normal dogs.

Terrasita, why don't you take a look at Workingdog.eu. Even if you are not registered there, you can look at the dogs' pedigrees.

I do not have the time to list all the breeders who only use HD normal.

I am not a breeder so I can understand that you might have doubts about what I write. All I can say is - take a look for yourselves.


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## Gillian Schuler

Forgot to mention, the above concerns, for me, only dogs from working dog lines, i.e. only Leistungshunde German Shepherds.


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## Stefan Schaub

The ZW is even fake like many official HD-results. many vets try their best to bring a dog in the best position with all tools they have in their hand.

the dog owner pays the vet bill and not the organization, so it is clear that the vet try the best for the owner and not for the organization. 

the zw is not really a tool because the dogs who get not "x rayed" keep their level, every one in germany is not so dumb to send his bad hips or bad elbows to the sv ,must pay 35+35 euro hd/ed and get than told from sv that his dog is bad. so many females and males have a ton of kids but only a handful is official dh/ed certified. it would be easy to say that the dogs maybe in not sv hand or they are with the police or where ever, but the truth is that they have been x rayed but not send to the sv.
it would be more than easy to change that. lets pay 150$ from breeders side to the organization for each single puppy registration and pay it back to the breeder in that moment the hd/ed pics get transfered to the sv. but no one wants that because it would hurt all the greta zw.

so it is not more than a nice try to make things looking good.

i do not know one breeder who have breed since generations only with a normal dogs, but if there is one than maybe he is more focused on his zw than on the quality of a dog.

also maybe someone can explain me what is the difference between a1 and a2 hips.
i know what it means, but i want know what the difference is on the X-ray.
today i see the sky is blue and tomorrow the sy is again blue ,was it the same blue or maybe darker or lighter or maybe their was some white in or maybe not.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> The ZW is even fake like many official HD-results. many vets try their best to bring a dog in the best position with all tools they have in their hand.
> 
> the dog owner pays the vet bill and not the organization, so it is clear that the vet try the best for the owner and not for the organization.
> 
> the zw is not really a tool because the dogs who get not "x rayed" keep their level, every one in germany is not so dumb to send his bad hips or bad elbows to the sv ,must pay 35+35 euro hd/ed and get than told from sv that his dog is bad. so many females and males have a ton of kids but only a handful is official dh/ed certified. it would be easy to say that the dogs maybe in not sv hand or they are with the police or where ever, but the truth is that they have been x rayed but not send to the sv.
> it would be more than easy to change that. lets pay 150$ from breeders side to the organization for each single puppy registration and pay it back to the breeder in that moment the hd/ed pics get transfered to the sv. but no one wants that because it would hurt all the greta zw.
> 
> so it is not more than a nice try to make things looking good.
> 
> i do not know one breeder who have breed since generations only with a normal dogs, but if there is one than maybe he is more focused on his zw than on the quality of a dog.
> 
> also maybe someone can explain me what is the difference between a1 and a2 hips.
> i know what it means, but i want know what the difference is on the X-ray.
> today i see the sky is blue and tomorrow the sy is again blue ,was it the same blue or maybe darker or lighter or maybe their was some white in or maybe not.



This is one of my problems with SV ratings--they don't provide the anatomical basis for the ratings. I do know on x-rays noted as DJD 1 by OFA, the SV gave a fast normal rating to. OFA has its equivalency table but I've wondered if the SV provides the anatomical basis for its ratings. I've x-rayed dogs for over 20 years and having been taught positioning and how to read them, don't know of any that can fake positioning to get a more optimal rating. How do you do that? The whole dysplasia and x-rays thing isn't rocket science. I also don't see how selecting against hips is selecting against quality otherwise. Are there that few dogs of quality that you have to use the dysplastic ones? 

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker

i think the point is you can overselect for superior hips, if that is your main concern..

not all of the best breeding dogs have the absolute best hips.

could end up with useless dogs with the best hips on the planet.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> i think the point is you can overselect for superior hips, if that is your main concern..
> 
> not all of the best breeding dogs have the absolute best hips.
> 
> could end up with useless dogs with the best hips on the planet.


Just use the quality dogs with quality hips and production. Do any of those exist?


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Just use the quality dogs with quality hips and production. Do any of those exist?



I'll tell you this: 

I'm no joint fanatic, for I believe there is much we still dont know about joints... but I try to use dogs that have been x-rayed proven healthy. 

Regardless of x-rays and all, one of the most important things for me is to see how long can the dog perform... if you have an OFA fair dog that can jump, run and work at 8 years old... What is the problem using such dog? 

Focus on drive and form following function...


Disclaimer: I believe any dog used for breeding needs to have good health results (hips, elbows and back).


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## rick smith

following Joby's train of thought ...

i'm curious how many working dog BUYERS, especially those intended for PSD or SAR related work, ask for hip Xrays BEFORE they look at the dog's performance ?

i suspect very very few 
most are looking at young dogs, and of course they want to see if the dog moves well. but if the dog has the "drives" they want to see, they will more than likely buy it...hips may or may not get Xrayed later, and whether they are OFA/PENNHIP level or just a vet clinic pic, it is still secondary to performance

they may expect and hope the bloodline has tight sockets but i doubt that it is a high level concern when they see the dog face to face. i would go as far as to say they don't even care where it came from if it performs well when they evaluate it. 
- i would go even farther to say they would still buy it even if the hips weren't as tight as they would like them to be 

yep. i believe a lot of buyers feel that performance trumps hips, so why should breeders get overly concerned with hips ? i suspect they are not breeding to decrease HD, they are breeding to sell dogs that perform well


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## jack van strien

When i was living in France people did not seem to worry to much about hips.
If the dog could do the jumps in the ring sport it was perceived as being a healthy dog,always made sense to me.
I also remember at one time a lot of Rotties were being used for breeding just because they had good hips,one way to screw up a breed real fast.


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## Alice Bezemer

rick smith said:


> following Joby's train of thought ...
> 
> i'm curious how many working dog BUYERS, especially those intended for PSD or SAR related work, ask for hip Xrays BEFORE they look at the dog's performance ?
> 
> i suspect very very few
> most are looking at young dogs, and of course they want to see if the dog moves well. but if the dog has the "drives" they want to see, they will more than likely buy it...hips may or may not get Xrayed later, and whether they are OFA/PENNHIP level or just a vet clinic pic, it is still secondary to performance
> 
> they may expect and hope the bloodline has tight sockets but i doubt that it is a high level concern when they see the dog face to face. i would go as far as to say they don't even care where it came from if it performs well when they evaluate it.
> - i would go even farther to say they would still buy it even if the hips weren't as tight as they would like them to be
> 
> yep. i believe a lot of buyers feel that performance trumps hips, so why should breeders get overly concerned with hips ? i suspect they are not breeding to decrease HD, they are breeding to sell dogs that perform well


Over here when selling a dog into LE or MIL it had better had good and tight hips. It does nae matter if the dog has the best performance ever and has gold stripes and a rainbow shooting out of its butt, if the hips aint tight, they aint buying. 

My personal belief is that health should always come first, tight hips and elbows in the right place, a good back and strong neck or I will get rid of the dog. I do not believe in training dogs with mediocre joints since I do not want to encounter issues when he grows up and I am maybe halfway my training. Nothing pisses me off more then having to get rid of a dog halfway its training due to a weak structure or bad joints. Its preventable and unneeded. Character may never EVER trump performance! If people start breeding for that reason then all will go to hell in a handbasket pretty quick and all dogbreeds will end up where the GSD is now... mostly fecked and quite useless.... 

If breeders do the math, and thankfully there are plenty out there that still actually do the math than there are no issues with bad hips and joints and character. You will get the complete package in one dog if the effort is made to breed for that. Sure, you might have to look further and longer for good breeding candidates but that is what makes for good bloodlines.


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## Erik Berg

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Just use the quality dogs with quality hips and production. Do any of those exist?


HD free in my opinion should mean a dog who produces very little HD, not if the pedigree is HD-free for several generations, especially if the littermates and relatives still have HD so it´s in the family. I think it´s only sweden where the parents in GSD must be HD-free, but I´m not sure exactly when that rule started, some where in the 80s early 90s I believe.


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## Stefan Schaub

No one have really say to breed with a dog with bad hips.what is bad?a1-a2-a3 or excellent -good-fair.
all these results are done by humans,with different dayli opinions.also to many different people rate the dogs for ofa. so there is never a fair base for a straight line. 
vet1 decides different from vet 2 and vet3 different from vet1, so what does it really say.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I dont have any issue with excellent, good or fair from OFA. I have had them and seen them worked over the course of their lives and seen how they produce. I have two other breeds and hips aren't a issue because if it doesn't certify, they don't breed it--period. OFA and hips is easy. They do a panel to try to keep it fair but since I can look at most and say yay or nay, it can't be rocket science. People try to make this harder than what it is because they either don't understand it or they don't want to accept it. Fast normals have a fairly high probability of being dysplastic--especially a fast normal at a year old. What happens when you line breed on it? There's single selection for the almighty bite but ohhhhhh its breed ruin if hips are a priority
Alice is right. Its a complete package you are after, not one or the other.


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## Mark Sheplak

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Fast normals have a fairly high probability of being dysplastic--especially a fast normal at a year old.


Is this a fact or opinion? If it is the former, please cite a source. Remember, stating that something possesses a fairly high probability means that you have a sufficient sample size (across many different breeding pairs) to state that the statistics are converged. 

As Stefan pointed out, why introduce human error? 

Given all of the medical imaging and image processing technology available today, it would be very easy to automate the whole process based on *objective* measurements that *quantify* a "deep seated ball", "well-formed socket", "joint space", "coverage of socket over ball", etc. You could probably even correct to some extent for less than ideal positioning. 

The irony of it all is that Germany prides itself on "German Engineering", yet to get an a stamp certification, I get my dog x-rayed which on modern machines, produces a digital file. I then have to send that digital file to TX to get it transferred to x-ray film. I then have to mail to USCA who in term ships it over to Germany. The whole process takes months. This is a huge waste of time, money, and increases our carbon footprint (for those of you who are freaked out about such things).

Wouldn't it be easier to take the original digital files, upload them to the SV website, pay a fee, run the image processing evaluation code on the files, and get my evaluation instantly? Sure, you could have a vet quickly do an idiot check to double check the code. In addition to increasing efficiency, speed, and accuracy, there would be *consistency* from dog to dog. The SV would also be building up a digital database that would permit future HD studies to enhance understanding of exactly which bone-geometry factors matter the most.


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## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> i'm curious how many working dog BUYERS, especially those intended for PSD or SAR related work, ask for hip Xrays BEFORE they look at the dog's performance ?


I think that most of SAR are buying puppies as opposed to LE who are looking for dogs more ready to hit the ground running. They want a dog now, not one in a year or two. My pup Gus is the first dog I've had that had xrayed parents - and I don't plan on getting it done on him.

My chosen breed is, on the whole, healthy and structurally sound. Doing xrays are not the norm and I'm not sure it would make a difference - at this stage of the game - if it was or not. I guess it depends on the breed and getting a look at the parents.


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## Joby Becker

I think if and when they develop a genetic test, we will all find out that there are NO HD free lines.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

HD free is a non-discussion. Can you greatly reduce the incidence of HD by selecting for ideal hip joint conformation? Yes. Its been done. The information and tools are there if someone wants to use them. If they want to gamble the hips/elbows in favor of something else then yes, it continues to be a total crap shoot. 

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> HD free is a non-discussion. Can you greatly reduce the incidence of HD by selecting for ideal hip joint conformation? Yes. Its been done. The information and tools are there if someone wants to use them. If they want to gamble the hips/elbows in favor of something else then yes, it continues to be a total crap shoot.
> 
> T


my point was that it is still a crap shoot. obviously serious people will use the best hips possible for breeding out of dogs that also fit the bill in the other areas as dogs they would like to breed from.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> my point was that it is still a crap shoot. obviously serious people will use the best hips possible for breeding out of dogs that also fit the bill in the other areas as dogs they would like to breed from.


My point is that it isn't when you stop using certain types of dogs.

T


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## Stefan Schaub

it is all bulls…!
humans are involved in positioning and certification, and humans make mistakes because of dayli work ethic ,stress,family drama and no sex!!!

so i hope for every one to get a great positioning of his dog and get a evaluater with a great mood.

i have get many dogs x rayed in the netherlands at De Meemortel Budel, great vet ,makes a year for sure more than a 1000 hip X-rays, he have really knowledge and was all time wondering what surprise we get back from the sv.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

So the one in the Netherlands is correct in his positioning, analysis and lives the stress free life with great sex? Too funny.


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## rick smith

Hip discussions might make an interesting topic online but in the real world I have dealt with, hips are minor compared to drives; both in breeding and buying dogs for LE work. I agree with Alice's eval and am glad all KNPV dogs get hips evaluated before they are sold and go to work. 

I have been looking for a dog with PSD/SAR potential and what I am finding so far (in terms of buyers) is the NO ONE starts out by asking if the hips are good before they evaluate a dog, or try to sell a dog. Even worse with many vendors, and I would not hesitate to name them. Regardless, MANY buyers simply don't care about genetic health and are not all that interested in seeing bloodline data. They evaluate based on potential performance, and if the hips are only decent, that is enough. Just look at how long a PSD will be actually working in LE, and in most every case, it will be retired before the hips deteriorate and cause problems for the dog moving around

I also think the different ways to evaluate hips are not a problem, and of course a lot of evaluation is subjective. WTF's wrong with being subjective ? If hip Xrays were poor, any moron should be able to see it, no matter who took the Xrays. If the person looking doesn't have a clue how the shots should be taken and what bad hips look like, they are just as moronic and have no business looking/judging them.

To me bad hips is just a result of many years of many idiots breeding dogs based on having two good ones and wanting to make more. Multiply that a few hundred thousand times and you will probably have more dogs with loose hip sockets. If there comes a time when mals and DS's are as popular as gsd's their hips will probably be in the same condition. My prediction is that "black mals" will be the first to deteriorate 

So for me, ANY way to judge/qualify/certify hips for breeding is better than doing nothing. Thankfully, there are good breeders around, but probably not enuff to make a difference in the long run

But I still say all the talk about the importance of health is mostly just talk, imo. 
Many many people will always buy dogs simply based on drives, what color it is, the shape of the head, how cool it looks, and if it has the working potential they are looking for. Not just pet buyers; ALL people; working dog buyers too.

Please show me a breed (working or not) that has become healthier after it has become more popular and i will eat my words. 

the only one that seems to come close might be the toller retriever, but i'm not that familiar with how it is currently, and i am not sure if it has become more popular. We have a member here who had one. Jennifer maybe ??? Maybe she knows

sorry for the long rant but health is a big issue for me


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Hip discussions might make an interesting topic online but in the real world I have dealt with, hips are minor compared to drives; both in breeding and buying dogs for LE work. I agree with Alice's eval and am glad all KNPV dogs get hips evaluated before they are sold and go to work.
> 
> I have been looking for a dog with PSD/SAR potential and what I am finding so far (in terms of buyers) is the NO ONE starts out by asking if the hips are good before they evaluate a dog, or try to sell a dog. Even worse with many vendors, and I would not hesitate to name them. Regardless, MANY buyers simply don't care about genetic health and are not all that interested in seeing bloodline data. They evaluate based on potential performance, and if the hips are only decent, that is enough. Just look at how long a PSD will be actually working in LE, and in most every case, it will be retired before the hips deteriorate and cause problems for the dog moving around
> 
> I also think the different ways to evaluate hips are not a problem, and of course a lot of evaluation is subjective. WTF's wrong with being subjective ? If hip Xrays were poor, any moron should be able to see it, no matter who took the Xrays. If the person looking doesn't have a clue how the shots should be taken and what bad hips look like, they are just as moronic and have no business looking/judging them.
> 
> To me bad hips is just a result of many years of many idiots breeding dogs based on having two good ones and wanting to make more. Multiply that a few hundred thousand times and you will probably have more dogs with loose hip sockets. If there comes a time when mals and DS's are as popular as gsd's their hips will probably be in the same condition. My prediction is that "black mals" will be the first to deteriorate
> 
> So for me, ANY way to judge/qualify/certify hips for breeding is better than doing nothing. Thankfully, there are good breeders around, but probably not enuff to make a difference in the long run
> 
> But I still say all the talk about the importance of health is mostly just talk, imo.
> Many many people will always buy dogs simply based on drives, what color it is, the shape of the head, how cool it looks, and if it has the working potential they are looking for. Not just pet buyers; ALL people; working dog buyers too.
> 
> Please show me a breed (working or not) that has become healthier after it has become more popular and i will eat my words.
> 
> the only one that seems to come close might be the toller retriever, but i'm not that familiar with how it is currently, and i am not sure if it has become more popular. We have a member here who had one. Jennifer maybe ??? Maybe she knows
> 
> sorry for the long rant but health is a big issue for me


i agree for the most part except the part about any moron being able to tell if hips are bad, no matter who took the xrays.

an improperly positioned xray can most certainly make hips look a lot worse than they would with a proper positioning.

I have put down a few dogs based on bad hip eval, in the past...without me being knowledgeable enough to know that the xrays were crap, and no judgements should have been made based on the quality of the xray.

I learned this after bringing a couple dozen xrays in to have my current vet look over, ones that were not done by him.

Just to prove a point to me, my vet once took about 10-12 xrays of one of my dogs (who he told me would most likely get an OFA excellent rating), with slight to really wrong positioning changes, and slapped them all up side by side to show me how different the hips would look on xray.

it was quite unexpected to see how slight positioning changes could effect the appearance of one or both sides, and it really hit home, considering I had made serious decisions based on those xrays.

There is only 1 MAYBE 2 vets that I really trust to do xrays for me, there is a big difference in skill levels of vets at both taking and interpreting xrays I think. The local neighborhood pet vets that xray a small handful of severely bad hips for people with pet dogs that are obviously dysplastic, I dont think are nearly as qualified as someone like my vet, that has done 1000's and 1000's of xrays for many many breeders, vendors and owners, for decades.

just because someone is not an expert on hips or xrays, doesnt I dont think make them a moron, especially if they are trusting a veterinary professional that is supposed to know what they are doing.


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## rick smith

agree Joby ... i stand corrected (insert the icon for embarrassed)

but i would still hope any owner would do some homework on positioning before they looked at their first set of Xrays


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## Terrasita Cuffie

rick smith said:


> Hip discussions might make an interesting topic online but in the real world I have dealt with, hips are minor compared to drives; both in breeding and buying dogs for LE work. I agree with Alice's eval and am glad all KNPV dogs get hips evaluated before they are sold and go to work.
> 
> I have been looking for a dog with PSD/SAR potential and what I am finding so far (in terms of buyers) is the NO ONE starts out by asking if the hips are good before they evaluate a dog, or try to sell a dog. Even worse with many vendors, and I would not hesitate to name them. Regardless, MANY buyers simply don't care about genetic health and are not all that interested in seeing bloodline data. They evaluate based on potential performance, and if the hips are only decent, that is enough. Just look at how long a PSD will be actually working in LE, and in most every case, it will be retired before the hips deteriorate and cause problems for the dog moving around
> 
> I also think the different ways to evaluate hips are not a problem, and of course a lot of evaluation is subjective. WTF's wrong with being subjective ? If hip Xrays were poor, any moron should be able to see it, no matter who took the Xrays. If the person looking doesn't have a clue how the shots should be taken and what bad hips look like, they are just as moronic and have no business looking/judging them.
> 
> To me bad hips is just a result of many years of many idiots breeding dogs based on having two good ones and wanting to make more. Multiply that a few hundred thousand times and you will probably have more dogs with loose hip sockets. If there comes a time when mals and DS's are as popular as gsd's their hips will probably be in the same condition. My prediction is that "black mals" will be the first to deteriorate
> 
> So for me, ANY way to judge/qualify/certify hips for breeding is better than doing nothing. Thankfully, there are good breeders around, but probably not enuff to make a difference in the long run
> 
> But I still say all the talk about the importance of health is mostly just talk, imo.
> Many many people will always buy dogs simply based on drives, what color it is, the shape of the head, how cool it looks, and if it has the working potential they are looking for. Not just pet buyers; ALL people; working dog buyers too.
> 
> Please show me a breed (working or not) that has become healthier after it has become more popular and i will eat my words.
> 
> the only one that seems to come close might be the toller retriever, but i'm not that familiar with how it is currently, and i am not sure if it has become more popular. We have a member here who had one. Jennifer maybe ??? Maybe she knows
> 
> sorry for the long rant but health is a big issue for me


I'm not sure what rant this is  or what circles you run in but I shop for performance people and health/hips is #1 and equal with temperament and drives. The performance title crowd spends a LOT of money and work dogs for their LIFE. I'm trying to get someone to retire one of mine and he is 13. She's still competing with him. You do the jumping and A Frames that a competitive agility dog does and you don't have time for bad structure or bad hips. In GSD Sch circles they dismiss it saying that the dog can still get a Sch III. I've seen dogs advertised that have a Sch III between ages 2-3. The AKC competitive dog sports and herding dogs are just getting started in their careers. Part of its knowledge and whether they know whether and what to ask. Do they really understand what those SV ratings say and what they do not. Someone tells me that their vet says the dog is dysplastic and wants to know will I look at the x-rays. I look at them and the vet is right. She says but its a hip certified pedigree. I said yeah, full of fast normals and a couple of noch zuchs. One of the bitches is a noch zuch and so is her sister. But really send them to OFA. OFA says dysplastic. The bitch is two. She was all set up to do SAR. She's already somewhat symptomatic if you watch the gait. The woman says to me there is no sense starting all that intense training and work for certification. Meanwhile she has the option of a replacement and asks me to look at the pedigree. More fast normal breeding. She then ask me if whether she even wants a replacement? My response is that her odds with that one are probably the same as the one she just spayed I don't know how often I hear that I'm nuts to continue in GSDs because there is no way to get a healthy one. Then you get on FB and listen to the breeders say they breed off on 1 year x-rays and won't ditch the fast normals from the breeding program. People are aware of health and they simply went to other breeds. As for the Mals, they have dysplasia too. We certainly seem to have them around here and they are all working line Mals. How many times has Mike Suttle said here that his customers wanna see hip, elbow and spine clearances and he supplies for military, LE and customs. The buyers will become more sophisticated. But you are right that it seems that protection sport people are willing to gamble and accept that its a crap shoot. 

T


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## Mark Sheplak

T,

You didn't address where you got the data to back up this statement, "Fast normals have a fairly high probability of being dysplastic--especially a fast normal at a year old."

You either have data to back this up or it is pure conjecture.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> T,
> 
> You didn't address where you got the data to back up this statement, "Fast normals have a fairly high probability of being dysplastic--especially a fast normal at a year old."
> 
> You either have data to back this up or it is pure conjecture.


Non peer review studies. I consider the SV system pure conjecture. Fast normals for me are simply unknown. I do know of someone that sent in two year old elbow xrays to OFA and the rating was DJD 1. He sent xrays to the SV and the rating was Fast Normal. I've asked multiple times whether the SV has a system in place where you can verify what age the xray was done. Or, what is the anatomical basis for a fast normal? OFASays their borderline rating is equivalent to a SV fast normal but that's OFA. Regardless, if they got a fast normal at age 1, does anyone follow-up to see what it is at age 2 or beyond?


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## Joby Becker

My opinion is to trust my own vet, at least the one I use now.

Doesnt prove much to anyone else I suppose, but sure gives me piece of mind.


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## Mark Sheplak

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Non peer review studies. I consider the SV system pure conjecture. Fast normals for me are simply unknown. I do know of someone that sent in two year old elbow xrays to OFA and the rating was DJD 1. He sent xrays to the SV and the rating was Fast Normal. I've asked multiple times whether the SV has a system in place where you can verify what age the xray was done. Or, what is the anatomical basis for a fast normal? OFASays their borderline rating is equivalent to a SV fast normal but that's OFA. Regardless, if they got a fast normal at age 1, does anyone follow-up to see what it is at age 2 or beyond?


T,

I hate to sound like I am defending the SV and being beyond reproach, but you are biased and are dealing in a purely anecdotal world with your "proof". I appreciate your passion, but you need to be able to back up your statements better sources of information than non-peer reviewed studies, he/she said one offs, etc.

Please give me the authors and title of the study. I would be interested in reading it. Given the importance of such a finding, one would think that it would easily pass peer review and be archived. 

The SV's system for verification of the age when the X Ray was shot is the same as OFA's ("The radiograph film must be permanently identified with the animal's registration number or name, date the radiograph was taken, and the veterinarian's name or hospital name. "). For the SV, the dog's DOB, MC#, registry, along with all of the vet's information, as well as the date of the X Ray needs to be on the actual X Ray itself. 

https://www.gsdca-wda.org/documents/pdf/hipandelbow/submissionofradiographsguidelines_051514.pdf

In both cases, it comes down to the professional integrity of the vet who is the person who certifies the X Rays. 

Furthermore, both evaluation procedures are done by human beings with rather subjective ratings, both of which are prone to error and inconsistency. The OFA even admits that the three vets agree on the rating only 73.5% of the time. The approximate grades between OFA and SV are just that, approximate. MOre than 25% of the time, the OFA cannot even agree amongst themselves. 

Again, it would be straight forward to quantitatively grade the hips and elbows via image processing and get the same answer each and every time. Why isn't that happening? My guess is follow the $$$. 

You may not like evaluations at one year, but it makes perfect sense for working dogs. I would much rather have dog with breeding potential X rayed at 12 months, speak to my vet and send them to the SV or get an OFA prelim, than take my chances at 24 months will all of the additional training miles in terms of jumps, advanced protection, etc. Supposed the dog gets injured? Then what? How do you determine what is genetic vs. injury? Do you not take the chance of training the dog hard? Wouldn't that complicate the evaluation process in terms of working ability? 

No system is perfect, but I don't see the huge difference between SV and OFA in terms of helping the breed.


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## Joby Becker

easy answer is to xray early and then again when the dog is older.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> T,
> 
> I hate to sound like I am defending the SV and being beyond reproach, but you are biased and are dealing in a purely anecdotal world with your "proof". I appreciate your passion, but you need to be able to back up your statements better sources of information than non-peer reviewed studies, he/she said one offs, etc.
> 
> Please give me the authors and title of the study. I would be interested in reading it. Given the importance of such a finding, one would think that it would easily pass peer review and be archived.
> 
> The SV's system for verification of the age when the X Ray was shot is the same as OFA's ("The radiograph film must be permanently identified with the animal's registration number or name, date the radiograph was taken, and the veterinarian's name or hospital name. "). For the SV, the dog's DOB, MC#, registry, along with all of the vet's information, as well as the date of the X Ray needs to be on the actual X Ray itself.
> 
> https://www.gsdca-wda.org/documents/pdf/hipandelbow/submissionofradiographsguidelines_051514.pdf
> 
> In both cases, it comes down to the professional integrity of the vet who is the person who certifies the X Rays.
> 
> Furthermore, both evaluation procedures are done by human beings with rather subjective ratings, both of which are prone to error and inconsistency. The OFA even admits that the three vets agree on the rating only 73.5% of the time. The approximate grades between OFA and SV are just that, approximate. MOre than 25% of the time, the OFA cannot even agree amongst themselves.
> 
> Again, it would be straight forward to quantitatively grade the hips and elbows via image processing and get the same answer each and every time. Why isn't that happening? My guess is follow the $$$.
> 
> You may not like evaluations at one year, but it makes perfect sense for working dogs. I would much rather have dog with breeding potential X rayed at 12 months, speak to my vet and send them to the SV or get an OFA prelim, than take my chances at 24 months will all of the additional training miles in terms of jumps, advanced protection, etc. Supposed the dog gets injured? Then what? How do you determine what is genetic vs. injury? Do you not take the chance of training the dog hard? Wouldn't that complicate the evaluation process in terms of working ability?
> 
> No system is perfect, but I don't see the huge difference between SV and OFA in terms of helping the breed.


There is nothing defensible about the SV system and doesn't compare to OFA. Pure marketing. You can breed a little bit of dysplastic but not a lit? OFA has no stake in it. They just tell you what it is. What you do with the information us up to you. Is there a database where I can look up the age the film was taken and the anatomical basis for the rating? How long have we known that one year xrays on elbows are unreliable? How reliable is s fast normal on a one year old dog without xraying at a later age. And you are right I am biased. I don't consider the SV system useful at all. All you know is that you got a rating. They'll certify noch zuchs for breeding so who cares that there is a system. Oh my study reference was tongue in cheek. Sorry. If I'm gambling, I'll take the OFA dogs. You can hang out with the SV.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> easy answer is to xray early and then again when the dog is older.


That's what a lot of the OFA folks do-- prelim and certify at 2. I think the percentage s are something like 85% of those that prelim good will later certify good or better. Last time I checked they recommend re-xraying the fair prelims at 2.


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## Gillian Schuler

I truly wonder how many of you on this forum have really tried to find out the GSDs that have been X-rayed for HD/ED amd spine anomalities.

When I take a look at Leistungshundeforum.de I read about dogs that have the necessary physical attributes, the necessary working abilities, etc.

It seems somehow that some persons on this forum are interested in damning the German GSDs which I find unfair.

I have said before that there are breeders who breed dogs that excel beyond the SV Standards of breeding.

Interestingly, no one on here contests the breeding standards of other breeds, German or otherwise.


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## Christopher Smith

Maybe you don't read these things on the German forums because they have lower standards?


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> Maybe you don't read these things on the German forums because they have lower standards?


I consider that a very coarse and ignorant comment.

Am I to understand that German standards are lower? and if so lower than what???

Come on Christopher open up and say what you really mean. You always hide behind a barrage of meaningless words and / or insults.


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## Christopher Smith

There is nothing to hide and my post was quite clear. Maybe breeders in the US have higer standards than the breeders you are familiar with. And now I add, maybe the dogs are the same and the perception is what's different.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Gillian Schuler said:


> I truly wonder how many of you on this forum have really tried to find out the GSDs that have been X-rayed for HD/ED amd spine anomalities.
> 
> When I take a look at Leistungshundeforum.de I read about dogs that have the necessary physical attributes, the necessary working abilities, etc.
> 
> It seems somehow that some persons on this forum are interested in damning the German GSDs which I find unfair.
> 
> I have said before that there are breeders who breed dogs that excel beyond the SV Standards of breeding.
> 
> Interestingly, no one on here contests the breeding standards of other breeds, German or otherwise.


I've been trying to find out for years who they are. You listed one dog. No one is damning German dogs. There are plenty in America that are using the SV system. Why?

T


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## Christopher Smith

They use it because it's hard to sell dogs without it. A breeder can breed the best GSDs in the world and there will still be a substantial portion of the GSD world that will never buy their dogs without the right WUSV/SV type qualifications.


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## Gillian Schuler

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I've been trying to find out for years who they are. You listed one dog. No one is damning German dogs. There are plenty in America that are using the SV system. Why?
> 
> T


 I don't live in America and wouldn't amass myself to criticize the American Breeders and their Breed Clubs. Neither do I live in Germany but I make it my business to check out dogs. I am also not a member of the SV and never intend to be.

Might I suggest that you avail yourself of WorkingDog.eu. It shouldn't take years to find out the good breeders and there are many in Europe. The SV doesn't have a "system" as you call it. The SV has breeding rules and there is one Standard in Germany for GSDs to be followed by the RSV and SV. But the SV cannot forbid breeders to create athletically built dogs with strong natures as Long as they conform to the standard and regulations.

Why is it so difficult to understand what I am saying? There are many breeders in Germany who meet the SV breeding requirements but aim on top of this at producing good working dog lines and dogs with good hips, elbows and spines, as well as strong characters.

Breeders like Elmar Mannes (Leipheimer Moor), Eugen Ecker (Fasanerie), Waldwinkel, Hagemühle, and dozens more have made names for themselves as reputable breeders.

I think you should do a little more investigating and less criticizing


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> There is nothing to hide and my post was quite clear. Maybe breeders in the US have higer standards than the breeders you are familiar with. And now I add, maybe the dogs are the same and the perception is what's different.


As clear as mud Christopher - you'd make a good politician!


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## Christopher Smith

And you would be the typical low information voter that votes with their emotion and false perceptions.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't live in America and wouldn't amass myself to criticize the American Breeders and their Breed Clubs. Neither do I live in Germany but I make it my business to check out dogs. I am also not a member of the SV and never intend to be.
> 
> Might I suggest that you avail yourself of WorkingDog.eu. It shouldn't take years to find out the good breeders and there are many in Europe. The SV doesn't have a "system" as you call it. The SV has breeding rules and there is one Standard in Germany for GSDs to be followed by the RSV and SV. But the SV cannot forbid breeders to create athletically built dogs with strong natures as Long as they conform to the standard and regulations.
> 
> Why is it so difficult to understand what I am saying? There are many breeders in Germany who meet the SV breeding requirements but aim on top of this at producing good working dog lines and dogs with good hips, elbows and spines, as well as strong characters.
> 
> Breeders like Elmar Mannes (Leipheimer Moor), Eugen Ecker (Fasanerie), Waldwinkel, Hagemühle, and dozens more have made names for themselves as reputable breeders.
> 
> I think you should do a little more investigating and less criticizing


Gilluan you started this thread stating there were many HD free lines. It wasn't a question of who's who of German breeders or "reputable." Workingdog
-eu doesn't tell me the HD picture unless you get more with the paid subscription. I can see things Luke of 3 puppies, 1 has an SV hip/elbow rating and the other to do not. But as far as what's consistent in hip production-- not entirely clear. Again if you know of the many, appreciate a list.


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## Erik Berg

Here is a list of HD/ED on studs having at least 4 litters starting from year 2006. Blue field to the left is number of offspring, next blue field how many are x-rayed for HD and the last blue field how many for ED. 100% HD/ED free is only one dog, 23 of 24 offspring is -x-rayed, this one,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=432137-karga-landets-trix

Another one who must be in the absolute top in this breed, 6% HD and 5% ED in 80 out of 84 offspring, his father also had similar numbers
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=434640-lovlunds-fokker

Studs more knownn outside sweden is for example sid v haus pixner who has 48 offspring, all tested, 6% HD and 8% ED, mike weinbergblick another one in the list who had have plenty of offspring here,
http://storage.hundpoolen.com/files...9c82/cfce5f5d-ffa7-4435-b1db-9df3e6fa7367.pdf


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## Gillian Schuler

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Gilluan you started this thread stating there were many HD free lines. It wasn't a question of who's who of German breeders or "reputable." Workingdog
> -eu doesn't tell me the HD picture unless you get more with the paid subscription. I can see things Luke of 3 puppies, 1 has an SV hip/elbow rating and the other to do not. But as far as what's consistent in hip production-- not entirely clear. Again if you know of the many, appreciate a list.


Just because I placed an extremely athletic and strong dog that has been praised by many, including Thomas Lapp of Germany, does not obligate me to do the ground work for you. 

It is immaterial to me whether you believe me or not that there are serious breeders in Germany, Switzerland and elsewhere, striving to breed strong, athletic dogs capable of Sport, Police Work or Army with excellent hips, elbows and spine.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Gillian Schuler said:


> Just because I placed an extremely athletic and strong dog that has been praised by many, including Thomas Lapp of Germany, does not obligate me to do the ground work for you.
> 
> It is immaterial to me whether you believe me or not that there are serious breeders in Germany, Switzerland and elsewhere, striving to breed strong, athletic dogs capable of Sport, Police Work or Army with excellent hips, elbows and spine.


Switzerland is a separate thing altogether and one I would defer to Eric Berg. However you started this thread and keep making these statements and was when I ask "who" you say you aren't going to do the work for me. OK. But really, in the future if you start a thread addressing me person
ally claiming to have information I'm interested in, I might ask for specifics.


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## Gillian Schuler

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Switzerland is a separate thing altogether and one I would defer to Eric Berg. However you started this thread and keep making these statements and was when I ask "who" you say you aren't going to do the work for me. OK. But really, in the future if you start a thread addressing me person
> ally claiming to have information I'm interested in, I might ask for specifics.


 Yes you might!!

BTW, Erik Berg isn't Swiss - he's Swedish - slight difference :-\"


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Yeah, I meant to check. Its the Swedish system that I wanted to look up with the dogs but really, don't put yourself out any further.

T


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