# Fading puppy syndrome



## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I have a friend who just about lost the whole litter of eleven pups, two barely alive, yuk! Very active, healthy bitch, super breeding, was on "bitch pills" for supplement. She abandoned the pups & he thought something was wrong with her, I recognized she knew something was wrong with the pups thus abandoning them. My question is what can be done to condition the bitch, although this one is in great shape. I suspect the time element of delivering such a large litter exhausted her ability to deliver quickly. Any thoughts or knowledgable comments?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

sit in the whelping box with her and calm her for a while and monitor her. If not spay the bitch.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Fading puppy syndrome in Border collies is often caused by an inherited genetic condition called TNS which can be tested for, so nothing can be done except to test the parents before mating. The puppies are born with a condition that seriously compromises their immune system and they die regardless.
I dont know if there are similar genetic connotations in other breeds.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Wow. The whole litter was lost and not just a few. Were they even able to nurse. Would make you wonder if there was something viral or bacterial. I'm really sorry. 

Hopefully the experienced breeders can share their wisdom.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Weird... that would seriously bug me, the not knowing. I would also wonder about viral/bacterial causes, especially if mom was healthy and pups initially lively and nursing... Was this the first litter for the bitch or is she a good mother usually? Were any necropsies done on dead pups? Bacterial cultures?


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Did he ever Check her milk? Had a friend who lost several puppies and noticed when I milked her it had a dark discharge that was poisoning the puppies. 2000mg Cephelaxin cleared it up but only one puppy survived at that point.


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## Brenda Arao (Nov 2, 2008)

I've heard that canine herpes virus is responsible for killing litters in such a manner.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

She has had two other very healthy litters & she has milk, was feeding them but quit. No necropsy yet, going to have her milk checked.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Yeah, this other girl's bitch had previously healthy, normal litters. This litter I just remember she had me babysit the mother and three remaining puppies (several other had already died) while she went to National Sieger Show. She said one was probably going to die those days (it did) and I just remember the days I had it trying to get it to nurse and I noticed the bad milk. And as the puppies got sicker, the more the mom rejected them even though it was the milk doing it.

Another case that comes to mind is a friend of mine had a litter of Brittanys in January. The mom had 9 puppies.... 5 delivered naturally and 4 were from C-section. The C-section ended up being botched really badly and she lost the female within a day and as the days went on, each of the puppies that were delivered via C-section all died as well as a result of septis and the vet allowing her to nurse them. The only symptom I remember her saying was that they had distended bellies.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I would be less worried about how quickly she delivered and looking more into what sort of genetic or disease issues might cause this. I've seen females that took over 24 hours to whelp a litter without issue. A friend had a litter of pups, thought the female was done, and the next day when she did a head count there was 1 extra, so it was delivered at least 8 hours after the others. I know with my Malinois I'm used to them just whelping a pup every 20-30 minutes, I've had large litters in a matter of hours. But I had a girl many years ago who I knew had more pups in there, and it had been 3 hours since the last was born, so I called the emergency vet. Who was quite surprised that I was concerned, said a 4+ hour break between pups isn't unusual at all, and actually seemed VERY surprised when I told her that my girls usually have an entire litter in 4-6 hours. She said to just keep an eye on the female, and if she appeared distressed bring her in but if she was calm, comfortable, not having unproductive contractions, etc don't worry about it and I could wait until morning to have my normal vet look at her.

Anyway off tangent, I would be looking at the females milk to see if there were signs of infection, maybe have a pup looked at if there are tests the vet can do to see if any viruses are present and also see if a similar breeding has been done in the past between a related female and the same male and if there were any issues. 1 or even 2 pups in a litter that fade I chalk up to "sh!t happens" but an entire litter I'd be concerned about.

How tight of a breeding was it? Any chance they doubled up on some nasty recessives?


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Going to have the milk checked. She is line bred 2-3 but was bred the same twice before but with different males with no issues just great pups. I'll let everyone know when I know because as with clients when I offer advice I want to know the outcome for further application plus I care. Thanks everyone....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> ...She abandoned the pups & he thought something was wrong with her, *I recognized she knew something was wrong with the pups thus abandoning them*.


how did you come to this conclusion? just curious...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm also curious, if she wanted to abandon them were they being properly fed, kept warm, and stimulated to poop/pee? If all they did is make her feed them, but she wasn't doing the cleaning and other stuff that could be why they all died. Either they were chilled from her not being there to keep them warm or they weren't properly pooping and peeing.

Even if she was a good mom in the past, she may have just decided she wasn't interested in this litter. I've heard of it happening before, I know a couple of females who had previously been very good mom's who's owners told me with their most current litter they just had no interest in them at all. Didn't want to feed or clean them, spend any time with them, etc and the pups were partially hand raised as a result. One female was spayed after the litter, the other one was bred again and I believe was fine as a mom that time around so ???


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have seen moms nose specific pups out of a litter and refuse to feed them. Put them back and mom will push them out again. 

All in all, this was a new stud, may have recessives that don't jive with mom but guessing is like pissing in the wind. Lots of hobby breeders weigh the pups constantly for signs things are not right. I personally think a lot of the puppy fading syndrome has to do with heart malfunctions. At birth, pups look great, but they quickly fade. If they do not put on weight steadily from the get go, many times it has to do with serious congenital heart problems. A pup should "thrive" from the time it hits the ground. That is, they should thrive, gain weight be active. Lack of thriving throws a red flag leaning to the heart for me. A whole litter??? I think even with bad recessives it is unlikely to pair up in that many pups and I would consider first a bacterial or viral element that may be the root of the problem.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Brenda Arao said:


> I've heard that canine herpes virus is responsible for killing litters in such a manner.


I've read this as well. Apparently, CHV can be the culprit in many cases where puppies are stillborn or fail to thrive and die unexpectedly. A necropsy will reveal if it is indeed the cause and is one of the few ways to confirm if it is CHV as it is very difficult to detect in older puppies and adults.


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

I've known two breeders to lose puppies to CHV and it is absolutely devastating to a litter. In both cases they lost the entire litters and literally in a matter of days. The first puppy died after dropping weight once over one 12 hr period and the others died within 30 hrs following. 

These breeders now practice a pretty strict isolation period before and after whelping a litter since adult dogs don't tend to be symptomatic.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Great response & my experience has been similar to Don's I've seen certain pups pushed out. I've had what I would like to say modestly, extensive experience. I managed early on in days, both commercial & private kennels, where I whelped hundred plus breedings, rare breeds & many not so rare. I've seen litters savaged by mom (Bull Terriers) because of low calcium. I saw what Don described, the Dam knew something was fatally wrong. Keeping her there wouldn't have changed much except to prolong the inevitable. Sometimes we must see nature for what it is! The bitch was normal in every sense of the word except for the killer which has been discovered to be bacterial. Two weeks before diarrhea swept through the kennel one dog at a time their immunity fighting it off. What the breeder didn't realize is that the bitch still carried it & should have used appropriate antibiotics. A lesson hard learned. I really appreciate the coming together of everyone, thank you all!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

A friend of mine lost a whole litter to bad recessives so it can happen


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> A friend of mine lost a whole litter to bad recessives so it can happen


I would have to ask how you know this? The odds are so remote it shouldn't even a consideration. Recessives in 11 of 11 pups pairing up? Almost impossible.....but then again, anything is possible.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> Great response & my experience has been similar to Don's I've seen certain pups pushed out. I've had what I would like to say modestly, extensive experience. I managed early on in days, both commercial & private kennels, where I whelped hundred plus breedings, rare breeds & many not so rare. I've seen litters savaged by mom (Bull Terriers) because of low calcium. I saw what Don described, the Dam knew something was fatally wrong. Keeping her there wouldn't have changed much except to prolong the inevitable. Sometimes we must see nature for what it is! The bitch was normal in every sense of the word except for the killer which has been discovered to be bacterial. Two weeks before diarrhea swept through the kennel one dog at a time their immunity fighting it off. What the breeder didn't realize is that the bitch still carried it & should have used appropriate antibiotics. A lesson hard learned. I really appreciate the coming together of everyone, thank you all!


yeah bacteria is not good...at least they were all born alive....not mummified, or worse...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would have to ask how you know this? The odds are so remote it shouldn't even a consideration. Recessives in 11 of 11 pups pairing up? Almost impossible.....but then again, anything is possible.


The litter was Border collie. The parents were both tested for TNS after the event as the loss of the whole litter was somewhat shocking. Both carried the TNS gene. The litter was not 11 pups in this case more like about 6 I think. The diagnosis of the pups was TNS. I agree that based on genetic theory it would seem unlikey but it is what happened. I have had one year where I have had 85% lambs born as one sex, when one would expect 50%.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> The litter was Border collie. The parents were both tested for TNS after the event as the loss of the whole litter was somewhat shocking. Both carried the TNS gene. The litter was not 11 pups in this case more like about 6 I think. The diagnosis of the pups was TNS. I agree that based on genetic theory it would seem unlikey but it is what happened. I have had one year where I have had 85% lambs born as one sex, when one would expect 50%.


I have had numerous litters of all females. Not sure what your point is Sarah. All one sex in a litter is nothing compared to the odds of every recessive pairing up in 11 pups. So, what exactly is TNS?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have had numerous litters of all females. Not sure what your point is Sarah. All one sex in a litter is nothing compared to the odds of every recessive pairing up in 11 pups. So, what exactly is TNS?


6 pups Don...

*TNS stands for Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome, an hereditary disease where the bone marrow produces neutrophils (white cells) but is unable to effectively release them into the bloodstream. Affected puppies have an impaired immune system and will eventually die from infections they cannot fight. *


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, we are talking about 11 pups, not Sarahs 6. And yes, I could have googled it myself.....but thanks for taking the time.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Make that Sarahs friend's litter of six. These discussions always seem to boil down to "knowing a friend, I read, I heard, etc, etc" First hand experience seems to trump all the yadda, yadda, yadda.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Make that Sarahs friend's litter of six. These discussions always seem to boil down to "knowing a friend, I read, I heard, etc, etc" First hand experience seems to trump all the yadda, yadda, yadda.


I think Sara was just offering up an instance of a litter that died, and said the reasons why....

you are the one that was disputing it Don not anyone else...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have had numerous litters of all females. Not sure what your point is Sarah. All one sex in a litter is nothing compared to the odds of every recessive pairing up in 11 pups. So, what exactly is TNS?


I am talking 400 lambs in one year Don, the majority of them rams lambs, not a small litter of pups. It was rather unusual. 
From memory the odds of a recessive pairing is 25%, so it is not that out of the ordinary that occassionaly a whole litter will die. I guess the larger the litter the less is the chance.
As to the personal experience involving a friend and breeder of one of my pups, just telling the experience is all, it was pretty first hand in terms of the details.


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## Brenda Arao (Nov 2, 2008)

From what I've read, a bitch may have had a healthy litter before and/or after losing a particular litter that was somehow exposed to the virus. In Europe, they use antiviral injections and pay attention to the temperature in the whelping box.


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## Ashley Scott (Feb 9, 2012)

Sara Waters said:


> The litter was Border collie. The parents were both tested for TNS after the event as the loss of the whole litter was somewhat shocking. Both carried the TNS gene. The litter was not 11 pups in this case more like about 6 I think. The diagnosis of the pups was TNS. I agree that based on genetic theory it would seem unlikey but it is what happened. I have had one year where I have had 85% lambs born as one sex, when one would expect 50%.


You must not be in the U.S. I've never heard of an american BC breeder that had a problem with TNS. As a matter of fact, I dont know any american breeders that even test for TNS.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Ashley Scott said:


> You must not be in the U.S. I've never heard of an american BC breeder that had a problem with TNS. As a matter of fact, I dont know any american breeders that even test for TNS.


I am in Australia and most breeders here test, my own dogs are from TNS clear parents. TNS was first identified in Australia and New Zealand. It has since been identified in other countries. They think it is widespread in the BC population although reletively rare 10-15% from memory are carriers. Probably gone unidentified because vets havent recognised it. Australia I think is the only place in the world that has a lab that tests for TNS. It was first identified in 1996.

The only reasom I bought it up is that I didnt know if other breeds have similar genetic diseases that mimic fading puppy syndrome.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The thing to do in this case is to submit the dead pups for a necropsy, ideally by a pathologist so they can do tests for bacterial and viral infections. At this point, it's too late.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

in case anyone missed it, Steve said the cause was discovered to be bacterial...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Diarrhea doesn't have to be caused by bacteria...Steve, what are the dogs being fed?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Diarrhea doesn't have to be caused by bacteria...Steve, what are the dogs being fed?


ok...that is not how I took it..I just took it to mean it was verified to be the cause...

Steve..was bacteria actually proven to be the cause? or is that just the assumption...

thanks


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It could be related (i.e.-all the dogs ate food or treats contaminated by salmonella and the female was shedding, so the pups all died) or totally unrelated.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> It could be related (i.e.-all the dogs ate food or treats contaminated by salmonella and the female was shedding, so the pups all died) or totally unrelated.


yer the vet not me 

I imagine if the mother and pups had massive bacterial infections, that could be the cause...


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

The food was checked, puppies examined determined to be bacterial. One pup survived doing well, fifth day. Curious to know what shot is used in Europe for anti-bacterial and if used prior, during & what is it?
The breeder has a kennel adjacent to his dogs & I believe it came from there. The female was there thru most of pregnancy & brought home a week prior. So it had to be carried, sanitizing is fastidious. That's about all I know, again thanks for the comments.


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## Betsie Janson (Jan 2, 2012)

Peritonitis or septicemia:
Brucellosis
Toxoplasmosis 
Clostridium perfringens-A
E. Coli 
Viral:
ICH
CPV-1

...are all possibilities (for future reference)

Did they identify the bacterium?


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## John Nolan (Jun 30, 2011)

I didn't see how old they were when they died, may have missed it.
So far as I'm aware Fading Puppy Syndrome is a sympton of a problem that usually occurs when a pup is between 5-10 days old. The pup stops suckling, gets weaker,more lethargic & dies. We had a litter of 12 just recently, birth time was 7 hours, all arrived OK. Our practice is to weigh pups at the same time every day for 3 weeks. The mum couldn't handle the lot so we bottle fed them starting off at 3 hour intervals around the clock. Day 6, one pup had obviously weakened & not put on weight, day 8 we felt the pup would not survive, but we fed the pup raw yoghurt mixed in with the formulae via a syringe. Within hours the pup had picked up & the 12 survived.
We've lost some pups over time, but had not tried the yohurt before. The pup was constipated & would have died. The yoghurt got the bowels working.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm curious too--what bacteria?

Terrasita


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