# Airedale Testing



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> *As a favor to you (Nicole Stark), let's do it, I will give him directions and we will do it here. *



I need 

Rules:

Airport:

Car:

Directions:

Cameraperson:

Possible Dates From Don (so I can pick one that is good for me):

I think this is all. Anyone have any input, please realize most of the rules will come from Don, as they are his dogs. I will put in my two cents for my safety. I believe Don had rules hashed out with Joby Becker, if he is willing to help give some guidelines.

Dave


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I am wracking my brain, but I cannot remember us coming up with or agreeing on anything specific.

I had in my mind, ways to TEST that the dogs will protect without training, as opposed to doing just an evaluation for protection type training...

I remember us going back on forth as to what would be "realistic", and that we were not really close to agreeing on that part.

My intial input is that the dogs have not performed any type of bite work on a human, therefore they should not key up on equipment if it is used. 

If the dog has never seen a hidden suit/ sleeve or a low profile trial type suit, that the suit will be perceived by the dog as nothing more than clothing to the dog. SO equipment being used should not be a problem.

Another thing would be to iron out what exactly is expected for the dog to be "protecting". I would say biting with intent, but that is me.

I would let Don think up some "scenarios" for testing, to make it easier to agree, but I do have some offleash and onleash ideas.

I am a big believer that a dog should at least protect itself, but in reality I realize the bond, loyalty and devotion to it's owner might cause it react in a way to protect its owner, that it might not do if he was protecting himself..so that might not be relevant in Don's interpretation of things.

I was thinking something passive for sure, and possibly an all-out assault on Don if the dog needs the violence to trigger its protective instincts..Even something in the dead of night, as that should help a dog become more suspicious..

First thing is to define "protect"...some people think barking or lunging or charging is protecting.

Hope this can be worked out, would like to find out.

I have owned a couple dogs that without a doubt, would protect (by my definition) without training, they are out there for sure....But they were dogs that were aggressive to people.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

No threatening or talking to the dogs. No civility between us. Dave, you come in close the gate behind you....and start your douche talk. I think things will kind of take care of themselves from there. How does that sound to you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> First thing is to define "protect"...some people think barking or lunging or charging is protecting.


None of that light weight stuff Joby. I already told Dave the only way the dogs will come of is if I choke them off.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

One dog at a time? Or the whole yardful?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> One dog at a time? Or the whole yardful?


You're kidding right. No more than I can choke off at one time....which is one.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No threatening or talking to the dogs.QUOTE]
> 
> What about once the dog approaches him? Wouldn't it be realistic for a person to talk to, threaten or act aggressively towards a dog if they were threatening you and the dog moved forward in an attempt to protect/deter the threat? If you're trying to test the dog in a realistic "owner attack" scenario to see if the dog will actually bite to protect you, I would think the assailant would either run away or attempt to fight the dog. And to me, that's a big part of testing to see if a dog would really bite. Any dog can feel empowered if a threat acts scared and runs like prey. What happens when they honestly feel like they are in a fight for their life? I know, I know ...your dogs hunt and bring down game a lot bigger and scarier than humans, but I still think a test should be fairly balanced.


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

One I would look at is have Don drive in his truck to a neutral place with some bushes for cover. Dog crated or whatever in his truck.
He gets out, goes around and opens the crate - as though about to walk dog or take him for a hunt etc.
Camera guy is hidden in bush at a distance, decoy hidden next to where Don parks - almost as soon as crate opens (before dog gets settled or even has chance to look around) have the decoy jump out and try to get Don in a choke hold or something.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

finally seeing some beef in this burger, but :
"No threatening or talking to the dogs. No civility between us. Dave, you come in close the gate behind you....and start your douche talk. I think things will kind of take care of themselves from there. How does that sound to you."
Don, were you being serious ? 
you didn't mention where you would be which might have some bearing on the issue dontya think ?
why close the gate ?
anyway, didn't see any smileys ??

so this will test/show/evaluate .... what ??
that anyone coming on the property with one dog on "duty" and closing the gate behind em who starts talking douche will result in a bite that needs to be choked off, maybe ??

sorry for butting in ... i'll go back to my seat in the peanut gallery and zip my trap


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm going out on a limb with this prediction but I hope all you guys realize these dogs are going to bite. Mine haven't had all that much training and would bite a bad guy threatening any family member. 

My wife just yelled at some one bugging her there other day and my male (the social one in the family) practically came unhinged until I calmed him.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Fly me out to be the Cameraman. Not only would I get to witness all this first hand, but I'd get everyone some great footage and I'd even throw on the suit for a scenario or two - maybe the dales would bring even more fire to a threatening black guy


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

I have no dog in this fight... but really? Do people still believe that their dogs will protect them? I always find it comical when people make this claim about an untested, untrained dog from a breed that hasn't been developed to do such. Hell, people are out there breeding for generations on lines that have proven they've got the right stuff and if they get one or two pups out of a litter from proven breeding stock with generations of success in their pedigree they feel they've had a great breeding. Sure, a majority of the litter may be trained for some sport or another, or perhaps can be cornered and taught that if it lashes out in aggression the threat goes away... repeat that enough times and the dog may rise to the occasion. But I"m talking about that one or two very special animals that are so dominant and confident that they truly feel they're the most swinging-est dick in town. The dog that shows no aggression towards people unless they're a true threat, the dog that couldn't give a crap about another animal around unless it came over and bothered him, the dog that never hackles or barks at strangers. The one that you won't know it's real until it's too late because they haven't felt the need to puff up and look tough and scary. Because in that special dog's mind, there's no need for bravado, they KNOW they can tear anyone apart. Then my neighbor tells me about their -insert breed here- that "would protect me if I was in trouble". ha ha ha

I'm down to five mals at my house now, and was up at six of them once. Without exception I had 5 that would really make a guy think twice before walking through that gate. Lot's of growling, teeth, barking etc. Real badass's... lol. But there's only one that I would count on if it came down to it. That would be the one that would just lie on the front porch and watch the other 5 go nuts... Be sure, you'd get bit by all if you turned your back on them, or acted afraid. But if you challenged back and charged them? They'd shrivel up pretty quick. And these were all dogs from working lines that were produced for the expressed purpose of protection work. So why is it, that when the entire focus has been to produce a protection animal, and nothing else, is the success rate so low in reality? Yet people think that their purpose built retrieving dog will step up to the plate and hit a homer for them?

And yes, I know, that 99.9% of the people out there would be afraid and outwardly show it and your house pet might engage a bad guy (probably a hamstring or heel injury) but for the meth-head that is so strung out he's not afraid... Buy a gun, cause your dog is probably going to look to their "alpha" to protect them in this spot....

Grant


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No threatening or talking to the dogs. No civility between us. Dave, you come in close the gate behind you....and start your douche talk. I think things will kind of take care of themselves from there. How does that sound to you.


Yes I'll come. Lets continue to work out the details. 

That is a good start for the rules. Where are you going to be during all this on the porch yelling back, so your dog can get busy, or right next to me so they feel as if I am threatening you? 

Also, if you can answer the following, I can get flights for nicole.


Airport: Which airport is close.

Car:

Directions/address:

Cameraperson:

Possible Dates From Don (so I can pick one that is good for me):

Oh yeah, and a hotel. Is there anyone close to Don I can rack out with? Pick me up at the airport, provide camera svc to keep it cheap for Nicole?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Grant Cusworth said:


> I have no dog in this fight... but really? Do people still believe that their dogs will protect them? I always find it comical when people make this claim about an untested, untrained dog from a breed that hasn't been developed to do such. Hell, people are out there breeding for generations on lines that have proven they've got the right stuff and if they get one or two pups out of a litter from proven breeding stock with generations of success in their pedigree they feel they've had a great breeding. Sure, a majority of the litter may be trained for some sport or another, or perhaps can be cornered and taught that if it lashes out in aggression the threat goes away... repeat that enough times and the dog may rise to the occasion. But I"m talking about that one or two very special animals that are so dominant and confident that they truly feel they're the most swinging-est dick in town. The dog that shows no aggression towards people unless they're a true threat, the dog that couldn't give a crap about another animal around unless it came over and bothered him, the dog that never hackles or barks at strangers. The one that you won't know it's real until it's too late because they haven't felt the need to puff up and look tough and scary. Because in that special dog's mind, there's no need for bravado, they KNOW they can tear anyone apart. Then my neighbor tells me about their -insert breed here- that "would protect me if I was in trouble". ha ha ha
> 
> I'm down to five mals at my house now, and was up at six of them once. Without exception I had 5 that would really make a guy think twice before walking through that gate. Lot's of growling, teeth, barking etc. Real badass's... lol. But there's only one that I would count on if it came down to it. That would be the one that would just lie on the front porch and watch the other 5 go nuts... Be sure, you'd get bit by all if you turned your back on them, or acted afraid. But if you challenged back and charged them? They'd shrivel up pretty quick. And these were all dogs from working lines that were produced for the expressed purpose of protection work. So why is it, that when the entire focus has been to produce a protection animal, and nothing else, is the success rate so low in reality? Yet people think that their purpose built retrieving dog will step up to the plate and hit a homer for them?
> 
> ...


Part of the point of this is Don thinks his *untrained *dogs will bite. Even he is not completely sure, but caring about his breed, wants to see if some will bite without training. He agrees he may have egg on his face after the test but maybe not. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. 

Ask any pet dog trainer if they think dogs bite without training. If they've been doing it for a while, the answer is yes, untrained dogs bite occasionally for a variety of reasons. I was looking forward to testing his dogs similar to how I would test a police dog candidate, after the initial test. I think we are past that now, but we'll see. 

We'll see how it goes and it will be on video.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> One I would look at is have Don drive in his truck to a neutral place with some bushes for cover. Dog crated or whatever in his truck.
> He gets out, goes around and opens the crate - as though about to walk dog or take him for a hunt etc.
> Camera guy is hidden in bush at a distance, decoy hidden next to where Don parks - almost as soon as crate opens (before dog gets settled or even has chance to look around) have the decoy jump out and try to get Don in a choke hold or something.


IMO if you really want to see if a dog will protect naturally, on it's own merits, this is the type of scenario that needs to be done. Having other dogs around, going nuts in their pen, can give a dog who might otherwise hesitate the "backup" they need to go forward. There is a reason a stake out test doesn't include multiple dogs along a fence, but just 1 dog, on it's own. 

I think the dog also needs to see some pressure after they bite. Unless the question is "will they bite" not "will they bite and hang in there". Not predicting anything about Don's dogs, just dogs in general, but lots of dogs will come in and take a quick bite, especially if they can get behind the person, but then back off if they receive any sort of pressure. 

The biggest concern I would have with actual physical attacks between the handler and attacker are accidental bites on the handler, it's not uncommon for a dog to get the targets mixed up with people moving all over the place, and even if they immediately realize their mistake and let go, the handler can still get hurt pretty easily. Might want to dress accordingly, just in case.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> IMO if you really want to see if a dog will protect naturally, on it's own merits, this is the type of scenario that needs to be done. Having other dogs around, going nuts in their pen, can give a dog who might otherwise hesitate the "backup" they need to go forward. There is a reason a stake out test doesn't include multiple dogs along a fence, but just 1 dog, on it's own.
> 
> I think the dog also needs to see some pressure after they bite. Unless the question is "will they bite" not "will they bite and hang in there". Not predicting anything about Don's dogs, just dogs in general, but lots of dogs will come in and take a quick bite, especially if they can get behind the person, but then back off if they receive any sort of pressure.
> 
> The biggest concern I would have with actual physical attacks between the handler and attacker are accidental bites on the handler, it's not uncommon for a dog to get the targets mixed up with people moving all over the place, and even if they immediately realize their mistake and let go, the handler can still get hurt pretty easily. Might want to dress accordingly, just in case.



Kadi. Don wants to test his dogs in a pretty certain manner. I am all for safety and setting it up the best to even help them a little. IE dogs barking in the back, Don further away to not inhibit the dogs bite, etc.. But, I don't know his dogs and he has something in mind he wants. I am going to accomodate him, because I said I would. Just going to make sure it is safe for me. Don wasn't worried about his guys biting him, which I have seen happen on more than one occasion in attacks on handler. I suggested some safety there, but we'll get it worked out. I am just glad it's back on.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

...and if the dog doesn't bite?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> IMO if you really want to see if a dog will protect naturally, on it's own merits, this is the type of scenario that needs to be done. Having other dogs around, going nuts in their pen, can give a dog who might otherwise hesitate the "backup" they need to go forward. There is a reason a stake out test doesn't include multiple dogs along a fence, but just 1 dog, on it's own.
> 
> I think the dog also needs to see some pressure after they bite. Unless the question is "will they bite" not "will they bite and hang in there". Not predicting anything about Don's dogs, just dogs in general, but lots of dogs will come in and take a quick bite, especially if they can get behind the person, but then back off if they receive any sort of pressure.
> 
> The biggest concern I would have with actual physical attacks between the handler and attacker are accidental bites on the handler, it's not uncommon for a dog to get the targets mixed up with people moving all over the place, and even if they immediately realize their mistake and let go, the handler can still get hurt pretty easily. Might want to dress accordingly, just in case.


Kadi, like I said before makes no difference if it is here or in the woods to me. Every time they have seriously gone after people was away from here.

Ariel, no, running away is a bitesport game to wind the dogs up in prey. My dogs will see that as then end of the threat. They are not game players. These are my personal dogs and are seldom around anyone but me. Ariel, do you understand behavior, all of these males mark anyone that comes here if they get a chance. They do it because they can....and a few other reasons I won't bother with. Pain triggers these dogs. If Dave fights them, they will get more aggressive because I am going to keep yelling at Dave. I can trigger these dogs with anger as well as fear. If Dave quits fighting, they will ease up. The only person my personal dogs know is me. 

Rick, sure, I am dead serious. Dave come in and start his douche talk and I will get pissed and won't have to act out for the dogs. Be a pretty natural scenario and I won't have to try to trick the dogs into "thinking" it's real. Pretty cool the way that worked out eh. As far as any of them being trained, the only two that have ever even been on a leash are Odin and Magnum and that was only for a couple of days at the nationals.

Need a cameraman that knows dogs.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kadi, like I said before makes no difference if it is here or in the woods to me. Every time they have seriously gone after people was away from here.
> 
> Ariel, no, running away is a bitesport game to wind the dogs up in prey. My dogs will see that as then end of the threat. They are not game players. These are my personal dogs and are seldom around anyone but me. Ariel, do you understand behavior, all of these males mark anyone that comes here if they get a chance. They do it because they can....and a few other reasons I won't bother with. Pain triggers these dogs. If Dave fights them, they will get more aggressive because I am going to keep yelling at Dave. I can trigger these dogs with anger as well as fear. If Dave quits fighting, they will ease up. The only person my personal dogs know is me.
> 
> ...


Don, obviously you didn't get the point of my question. I'll try to rephrase and be more clear. And I'll ignore the question about whether or not I understand behavior. Perhaps, once you know me a bit better, you'll realize that was a stupid question.

You said you didn't want him to talk to or threaten the dog. So, you just assume as soon as he comes in and starts yelling, the dog will just run up and bite him without hesitation? And I asked, why would he not yell or threaten when the dog approached him? A normal assailant who was not part of a test and actually endangering you, your dogs or your property would either: A. run or B. somehow direct his threats towards a dog that was approaching him (hopefully) aggressively. 

Somehow, you completely ignored the point of my question which was to suggest that it would be realistic to have Dave yell and or threaten the dog to actually test the dog's commitment to bite. I never suggested Dave should run and I apologize for going too in depth rather than just saying I think it would be unrealistic for Dave to just stand there and get mauled without actually trying to deter the dog.

Oh, and I volunteer to be the camera person which also means I could suit up and see if your dogs would bite a woman ...that is if they will even bite Dave.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Martin said:


> Fly me out to be the Cameraman. Not only would I get to witness all this first hand, but I'd get everyone some great footage and I'd even throw on the suit for a scenario or two - maybe the dales would bring even more fire to a threatening black guy


It would be great if you just came out and did the testing Dave M. Be interesting how they would react since they have never seen a black guy. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don, obviously you didn't get the point of my question. I'll try to rephrase and be more clear. And I'll ignore the question about whether or not I understand behavior. Perhaps, once you know me a bit better, you'll realize that was a stupid question.
> 
> You said you didn't want him to talk to or threaten the dog. So, you just assume as soon as he comes in and starts yelling, the dog will just run up and bite him without hesitation? And I asked, why would he not yell or threaten when the dog approached him? A normal assailant who was not part of a test and actually endangering you, your dogs or your property would either: A. run or B. somehow direct his threats towards a dog that was approaching him (hopefully) aggressively.
> 
> ...


Ariel, I have been in some situations. No one ran or yelled at the dogs. They totally stopped what they were doing and froze. You been playing to many games. You didn't seem to understand when I said, if Dave runs, they will consider the threat over and go into a natural guard as they did in the other situations where the people froze. These are not herders. They are natuaral, untrained dogs. They have automatic waters, they are free and have been since pups. They have only been exposed to a few people and only if they are in the middle yard. None of the dogs we are going to test have ever been in a house. They have a good bond with me, but no one else because they have not been around people. They are basically head dogs. They grab hogs and bears by the head, they don't work the back end. No, the dogs have never actually bitten anyone largely because there is no one here to bite....which is why all incidents happend away from here...luckily I got hold of them first as they were bailing out the window after a guy I was yelling at. The dogs he is going to get to test are all confined in electified yards because it is the only way I can safely keep the males from killing each other. The place looks more like a power company than a kennel. They are the product of many generations of culling any dog that curs. I have had drunk friends that teased the dogs and I had put the dog in a lock down kennel until the guy left. 

I am leaving until tomorrow afternoon.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Is anyone else amused that Dave borrowing Jeff O's "BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" tactics worked? Juvenile...but effective. :lol:


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ariel, I have been in some situations. No one ran or yelled at the dogs. They totally stopped what they were doing and froze. You been playing to many games. You didn't seem to understand when I said, if Dave runs, they will consider the threat over and go into a natural guard as they did in the other situations where the people froze. These are not herders. They are natuaral, untrained dogs. They have automatic waters, they are free and have been since pups. They have only been exposed to a few people and only if they are in the middle yard. None of the dogs we are going to test have ever been in a house. They have a good bond with me, but no one else because they have not been around people. They are basically head dogs. They grab hogs and bears by the head, they don't work the back end. No, the dogs have never actually bitten anyone largely because there is no one here to bite....which is why all incidents happend away from here...luckily I got hold of them first as they were bailing out the window after a guy I was yelling at. The dogs he is going to get to test are all confined in electified yards because it is the only way I can safely keep the males from killing each other. The place looks more like a power company than a kennel. They are the product of many generations of culling any dog that curs. I have had drunk friends that teased the dogs and I had put the dog in a lock down kennel until the guy left.
> 
> I am leaving until tomorrow afternoon.


Don, again, I'm not suggesting Dave run. Forget I even mentioned running. I did so for the purpose of explanation. I should have just simply said I think if/when the dog engages Dave, he does need to focus his threats/fight on the dog because that is what a normal person would do. Kadi said it well. There should be some fight involved between the dog and Dave ...or whoever is testing the dog. That is realistic. You seem to think the dogs will engage just based upon you yelling at someone which is completely possible. You also seem to think if a person fights the dog, the dog will fight harder. I think it would be important to test that aspect. I've seen plenty of dogs that owners believed would protect them. They might charge up and attempt to engage the threat, but one that human began to fight back, they changed their tune. Just trying to suggest a fair test. But, really, you and Dave need to agree on what happens when. Just understand, running was not my suggestion. Sure, I play games with the puppies I train. But you and Dave aren't training your dogs, you are testing their committment to protect you regardless of the intensity of the threat.

You mentioned that you had been in some situations where no one ran or yelled at the dogs. They just stopped what they were doing and froze. I assume you mean the person stopped and froze. Don't you think that would immediately be a sign to a dog that they have succeeded in intimidating that person and now have the upper hand? If you meant the dog stopped and froze then the previous question does not apply.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don, again, I'm not suggesting Dave run. Forget I even mentioned running. I did so for the purpose of explanation. I should have just simply said I think if/when the dog engages Dave, he does need to focus his threats/fight on the dog because that is what a normal person would do. Kadi said it well. There should be some fight involved between the dog and Dave ...or whoever is testing the dog. That is realistic. You seem to think the dogs will engage just based upon you yelling at someone which is completely possible. You also seem to think if a person fights the dog, the dog will fight harder. I think it would be important to test that aspect. I've seen plenty of dogs that owners believed would protect them. They might charge up and attempt to engage the threat, but one that human began to fight back, they changed their tune. Just trying to suggest a fair test. But, really, you and Dave need to agree on what happens when. Just understand, running was not my suggestion. Sure, I play games with the puppies I train. But you and Dave aren't training your dogs, you are testing their committment to protect you regardless of the intensity of the threat.
> 
> You mentioned that you had been in some situations where no one ran or yelled at the dogs. They just stopped what they were doing and froze. I assume you mean the person stopped and froze. Don't you think that would immediately be a sign to a dog that they have succeeded in intimidating that person and now have the upper hand? If you meant the dog stopped and froze then the previous question does not apply.


Yes, when the dog engages, he better focus on the dog. I am counting on that because the harder Dave fights, the harder they fight. I am going to keep yelling because the dogs key on my mood. What is nice is these dogs are about as untrained as they come. I am outa here till tomorrow afternoon. Oh, I got a lot of nice guns and only close the screen door when I leave. House is never locked.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes, when the dog engages, he better focus on the dog. I am counting on that because the harder Dave fights, the harder they fight. I am going to keep yelling because the dogs key on my mood. What is nice is these dogs are about as untrained as they come. I am outa here till tomorrow afternoon. Oh, I got a lot of nice guns and only close the screen door when I leave. House is never locked.


Okay, that's exactly what I was getting at. I'll be interested to see the outcome and like I said, would be more than happy to film. I'm all about seeing what dogs are capable of first hand.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What is nice is these dogs are about as untrained as they come.


:roll: Preeeeeecisely........ Don't you think that this statement makes your other post about competition a TAAAAAD bit hipocritical?

As for your untrained, unsocialized hunting dogs that have to be kept in with hotwire - Ya..... they might bite somebody.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

according to the set up (and i know there will be more details to hammer out), i don't see the "protection of Don" aspect in this event at all
haven't read every post but quite a few

all i see are aggressive, (only used to hunt/kill game and culled if they don't), untrained (never been around humans much at all; aka : HIGHLY unsocial towards humans) dogs that will be guarding their turf ...
-so why WOULDN'T they engage an intruder, dog or human ? and would it make a lot of difference is Don is even there or not yelling and hyping em up that much more
- my money is on Dave getting a few bites !
- if he leaves the gate open they may all run past him and look for game
- the more Don acts up, the more they will key on Dave and the more Dave resists the more they will engage
- but where will the protection aspect come into play ??

of course Don provides all their resources (food water) so they respond by giving him hugs and kisses whenever he shows, but there is no reason at all why they wouldn't NOT attack and or bite any intruder, since as i understand it he has bred many generations of these dogs in this same area
- and as hunters it is no brainer that resistance would just make em dig in

but this is such a far cry from just about any other situation i could think of to "test" if dogs "instinctively" will protect (aggress and engage aka bite) a THREAT TO THEIR OWNER, i don't see it being very definitive

- as far as the aggression issue, i would go so far as to say if Dave came in with a bucket of whatever Don feeds em, and if they were hungry at the time and missed a couple meals, they might just start chowing down before they would ever think about attacking or protecting the "intruder" if Dave walked over and started harassing Don at that point
- or if Dave brought another dog in and let it loose before he harassed Don, my guess is Don's dogs would probably go for the dog first before they made a move for Dave...would that mean they were protecting Don from Dave and recognizing the threat to the owner ?
- last but not least, if Dave brought in a pig, i'll bet he could just walk right over and start pummeling the crap outa poor Don and never get a scratch on him 

guess i shoulda read more of this thread from the beginning....and I know; dumb/bad examples 
but it's really interesting to me now that it looks like it's gonna happen !!
...i'll go back and read em all when i can and shut up until i do...promise


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Yes, I vote for the pig being part of this 'protection' scenario. Watch out Dave! You might get attacked... by a pig!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

This gets more and more AMUSING as this thread continues. You dudes are already coming up with every reason you can think of why these dogs are going to attack and excuses for the way the test was performed. 

Those of us that are old fossils remember some of our childhood dogs, with no formal training, that would eat a asshole trying to bother us kids.


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

I have to agree with Lee. Its getting pretty dumb yall. The whole point of this is to see if the dogs will protect him. Don said he didn't mind if this was done in the woods. Besides I've seen plenty of post on here stating dogs wouldn't protect the home either so this could put that to rest as well.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole. 

I found a flight into modesto for $585. 15 September returning 18 September. Not sure if that is the closest or best airport into the area.

I don't know anyone in the area, or I'd get someone to pick me up. Any WDFers in that area? I'll work your dogs for a day (or not if that will get me a room, lol) I'll problem solve with dogs, feed livestock, run a bush hog, carpentry, dishes, do general clean up, cook breakfast, make coffee, wash a car or two, etc.. 

Just trying to keep it cheap on Nicole.


Any takers??


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don, obviously you didn't get the point of my question. I'll try to rephrase and be more clear. And I'll ignore the question about whether or not I understand behavior. Perhaps, once you know me a bit better, you'll realize that was a stupid question.
> 
> A normal assailant who was not part of a test and actually endangering you, your dogs or your property would either: A. run or B. somehow direct his threats towards a dog that was approaching him (hopefully) aggressively.
> 
> Or, C. Freeze and do nothing or freeze and hug themselves or stand there and try and just push the dog(s) away.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> ...and if the dog doesn't bite?


Right, it doesn’t bite, exactly right 
It could happen that’s the point to see what happens


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don, again, I'm not suggesting Dave run. Forget I even mentioned running. I did so for the purpose of explanation.
> 
> I should have just simply said I think if/when the dog engages Dave, he does need to focus his threats/fight on the dog because that is what a normal person would do. Kadi said There should be some fight involved between the dog and Dave .That is realistic.
> 
> ...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

rick smith said:


> according to the set up (and i know there will be more details to hammer out), i don't see the "protection of Don" aspect in this event at all
> haven't read every post but quite a few
> 
> all i see are aggressive, (only used to hunt/kill game and culled if they don't), untrained (never been around humans much at all; aka : HIGHLY unsocial towards humans) dogs that will be guarding their turf ...
> ...


What about if Don tells the dog its ok and lets the guy in the yard for a bit without problem before the aggression? 
And I think you guys should set up webcams and do this live? Hell ill pay $10.00 to log on and see it live


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> What about if Don tells the dog its ok and lets the guy in the yard for a bit without problem before the aggression?


That is a good idea


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> That is a good idea


This must be a set up for something, nobody ever says that about anything I say.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> > Don, again, I'm not suggesting Dave run. Forget I even mentioned running. I did so for the purpose of explanation.
> ...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Excuse me for using the world normal. You're right. A normal person probably wouldn't be walking onto Don's property and shouting aggressively at him to begin with. I suppose what I should have said was a person with the balls to walk onto Don's property or approach Don in the woods and act aggressively would probably not just ignore the approach of a dog. From the sounds of it, he's got a fairly fortified homestead and an assailant may have to have a screw or two lose to be willing to mess with that. If they have the nerve to attempt an assault on Don, it would be reasonable to assume they might also have the nerve to fight Don's dog, no? Being that this whole situation is hypothetical, it seems ridiculous to sit here and speculate about what the imaginary assailant may do. Really, if the purpose of the test is to see if Don't dogs will bite to protect him, then shouldn't they also test their willingness to bite through more pressure than less. Why test to see if the dog will bite someone who runs away or stands there frozen? Seems pointless to me.
> 
> Obviously, the purpose of your post wasn't to question the parameters of the test but to question my experience. If you're honestly interested, please PM me or feel free to leave your phone number or email address and I'll tell you all about where I've been and what I've done. I'm not going to sit here and list my credentials on the WDF because I've offended you and now you feel the need to try to discredit me any chance you get.


When did you offend me? Discredit you? What credit? What the hell are you talking about? I just want to know what your experience was with dogs biting for real because I don’t have none and what you said sounded stupid? That’s all


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey why don't each of you guys just whip out your johnsons & take a picture of it next to a ruler. That's a much easier way to figure out who's dick is bigger than all this silly business with the dogs.
](*,)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Hey why don't each of you guys just whip out your johnsons & take a picture of it next to a ruler. That's a much easier way to figure out who's dick is bigger than all this silly business with the dogs.
> ](*,)


what you said. set it up, whatever, then post video....don't you guys have something better to do than yap on here (if you're serious)?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

ann schnerre said:


> what you said. set it up, whatever, then post video....don't you guys have something better to do than yap on here (if you're serious)?



Ann. You and susan aren't adding anything constructive to this. I got my flight info for Nicole who is paying for this, and Don is going to get his dogs tested which is what he wanted. 

You want to be constructive and helpful, come up with testing guidelines. Other than that, you are just adding to the sidebar, instead of the focus of testing dogs working (hunting) dogs ability to bite a man, with no training. It isn't about Don or me. It's about the test of his working dogs. I'll bet even in disagreement about other stuff, we'll do a pretty good job of this. Whether don likes me or not, Nicole is paying my way to go do this. I for one am going to do it to the best of my ablility. And. One of you might just have a good idea on how to do it that don would agree with. So.....


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> > When did you offend me? Discredit you? What credit? What the hell are you talking about? I just want to know what your experience was with dogs biting for real because I don’t have none and what you said sounded stupid? That’s all
> ...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> > I've been bitten. I've seen people get bitten. I've seen people almost get bitten. I've seen dogs decide they really don't want to bite after the person looked as thought they might put up a fight. If you are really interested in more details, PM me. We've already hi-jacked one thread with useless argument. I'm going to be polite and allow Dave and Don to actually make this thread productive.
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> > Im sure Dave and Don are OK with this, they both know its not really gona be productive. So your saying the non decoy trained, non dog people you seen get bit fought the dog biting them eh? Really?
> ...


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and I am not okay with this. I think it will be productive. I think don will get a test of his dogs.
> ...


----------



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> > Im sure Dave and Don are OK with this, they both know its not really gona be productive. So your saying the non decoy trained, non dog people you seen get bit fought the dog biting them eh? Really?
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Kelly Godwin said:


> Dave Colborn said:
> 
> 
> > I think this is going to work out well for all involved. Don gets his dogs tested, you get to see some potentially great terriers, and the forum gets to see what Don's dogs are all about.
> ...


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

If it's possible, wouldn't it be interesting to test how the dogs will react in various settings - home, woods, in the truck, park. I've seen dogs that work better on home turf and some that work better on unfamiliar turf.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> If it's possible, wouldn't it be interesting to test how the dogs will react in various settings - home, woods, in the truck, park. I've seen dogs that work better on home turf and some that work better on unfamiliar turf.



You or Jody, or Nicole hammer it out with Don. I'll execute against the plan as long as there is a degree of safety in it. If Don has a plan, I just want to see it in bullet points.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> > Im sure Dave and Don are OK with this, they both know its not really gona be productive. So your saying the non decoy trained, non dog people you seen get bit fought the dog biting them eh? Really?
> ...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> > Dave and Don may be but Nicole isn't. Move along Chris.
> ...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Speaking of not being productive! :lol:;-)


Bob, if you have something to say then man up and be direct with me. I am not in the mood for any jabbing mod veiled bullshit at the moment.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Bob, if you have something to say then man up and be direct with me. I am not in the mood for any jabbing mod veiled bullshit at the moment.



My apologies Nichole. My reference was to all the added expertise that folks seem to feel the need to add in this discussion. 
I applaud you for your efforts in this! :wink:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Nicole Stark said:
> 
> 
> > My apologies Nichole. My reference was to all the added expertise that folks seem to feel the need to add in this discussion.
> ...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Nicole Stark said:
> 
> 
> > My apologies Nichole. My reference was to all the added expertise that folks seem to feel the need to add in this discussion.
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I appreciate that Bob. Thank you. My mistake for the misread.
> 
> I freely acknowledge the periods of time when I have offered up useless and noncontributory material to this site but if you haven't noticed with this thread and subject matter in particular my patience and tolerance for that is zero, especially with all of the side bar personal agenda BS that's chronic and literally debilitating to this forum and its membership.
> 
> Here is a situation for those who are legitimately interested that have been presented with an opportunity to explore and learn something about a breed few of us know anything about. Yet, I am truly baffled by the careless and deliberate squandering of an interesting opportunity.


Thanks for your gracious funding. I believe I have a road trip partner and camera crew. Not going to drop a name yet in case it doesn't work out.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I appreciate that Bob. Thank you. My mistake for the misread.
> 
> I freely acknowledge the periods of time when I have offered up useless and noncontributory material to this site but if you haven't noticed with this thread and subject matter in particular my patience and tolerance for that is zero, especially with all of the side bar personal agenda BS that's chronic and literally debilitating to this forum and its membership.
> 
> Here is a situation for those who are legitimately interested that have been presented with an opportunity to explore and learn something about a breed few of us know anything about. Yet, I am truly baffled by the careless and deliberate squandering of an interesting opportunity.



As an old terrier man I'm looking forward to the testing.


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

I think if it's a test for protection of the handler, it has to be on neutral ground so it's not a territorial response. If you're just looking to see if they'll bite, then I guess it doesn't matter. If it were me in the suit I'd be a little concerned about face, neck, hands etc. If you're testing for a "real" response from the animal you can't exactly feed the bite to the dog. Sort of defeats the purpose IMO.

Some more opinions and we all know what they're worth...

- one dog, one handler. Pack mentality can create all kinds balls...

- tactical suit if possible. I realize the dogs aren't gear orientated, however, as realistic as possible is best and a big puffy bite suit just feels good in the mouth (or at least that's what my dog's tell me) Where as a thin suit without a puffy bite bar is a little less attractive.

- stage it like a defense of handler from ring-sport but way cooler? Have Don walking along with his dog, Dave comes running up from behind and tackle Don, and right to the ground. Not violently to harm but the impression is such. If the dog engages Dave, Dave turns his attention from Don to the dog in full force. Loud voice, aggressive gestures, try and grab the dog by the scruff while rushing it and screaming? If it's on the bite and won't let go despite all the reaction and noise? I guess it's settled. I'm sure Don wouldn't agree (and rightfully so) to have his dog actually struck for real. Nice thing about that is we can all say "what if" after... 

- I share other's concerns that the handler doesn't get bit in the melee. With my suggestion it's going to be kinda wild for a moment or two and we could only the hope the dog hit's it's mark.

- again, concerned about Dave's safety with regards to an unprotected head, neck, hands and feet. If a bite occurs we're probably not looking at a prey bite sort of thing, we'll be seeing max power, shallow type thing that leaves huge punctures and tissue removal... 

Interesting as hell from a behavioral standpoint. I've always been suspicious of my dogs that if I were in a fight for my life and it didn't look good, my dogs may side with the attacker thinking that they were supporting the new "alpha" male. And I'm sure others have seen this with their dogs, but my dogs are 10 times more aggressive and alert when I'm away from home. The head K9 in the family really steps up and his demeanor towards people is notably different when I'm away. But when I'm home he's a chillin' machine. 

Grant


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Grant, I think this is good input. I agree with your suggestions and you even made me laugh at the last part as well. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that Don would permit physical pressure on the dogs being tested. I'd certainly be ok with and expect that much and I don't own dogs quite like his. 

I'll qualify this a bit by saying over the summer my mastiff got kicked in the head while in pursuit of a moose. The hoof print was clearly visible as was the swelling that remained for about a week.

No slight to Dave or anyone else but if this were me and my dog, a 200 lb +/- guy is in no way going to physically hold a candle what a wild animal can dish out while fighting for or protecting their lives/young. Of course, my bully mastiff won't bite a man (and I expect that to be the case under most any circumstance with her) but Don's may and certainly may not care to make a distinction in the execution of such between man and beast.


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

One other thing that I'll add, although it doesn't sound like Don is a big leash user anyway. But it's vital I believe that the dog is off leash. Two behaviors, fight or flight. The leash removes flight so fight is the only option. Give the dog the choice of both would be best IMO.

And you make a good point about the distinction between man and beast from the dog's point of view. Lest we forget... There are hundreds of years genetics in play here. Dogs are after all, a domestic animal and from the beginning have been bred to be around humans and fear them. This is a helluva a hurdle to overcome from a breeding standpoint. There are always exceptions to the rules and concentrated efforts by those breeding have created certain breeds that put aside that long ingrained behavior. I've seen dogs that will attack a horse, cow, black bear etc... yet a 150 pound human wearing a puffy outfit and crooked sunglasses can send them running to the truck. I truly believe they recognize the difference. Hey, we didn't spend all this time as humans rising to the top of the food chain for nothin' did we? Hell, one of my Mals (he's wired wrong in the head) actually attacked, rather unsuccessfully, a Honda Accord doing 30 MPH down the street. Craziest damn thing I ever saw. Got a broken femur for his efforts and any fight judge worth his salt would give the nod to the Honda. Yet if given the chance is always ready for another shot at the belt. Interestingly he's absolutely useless for protection. He'll bite but it's a complete and total fear response. He's my extreme house pet now and my very loud motion/sound detector at night.

Good luck and I look forward to the outcome. I'm a self admitted dog behavioral nerd at heart...

Grant


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Grant Cusworth said:


> He's my extreme house pet now and my very loud motion/sound detector at night.
> 
> Grant


I can relate to that (see below). Nothing going on there but someone entering with a bite suit and so it goes that this was her reaction. Most would leave but those who know how to read what's going on would stay in it. It's pretty clear to see what's up.

But, put some tracks on the ground old or new, she doesn't care and she's on it. Silent, moving tight, darting like a dog her size shouldn't be capable of doing - yet she does. It doesn't matter if she's run 3 miles or 10 before hand that's what takes over once the scent picture is presented. To watch her honestly over comes me in ways I couldn't begin to describe. Hell, I got my hand and shin bent up last weekend bailing off the 4 wheeler after her while on a track. Something about that behavior draws me in. Course when that little Dutchie pup gets entangled in her genetics, I get the same way about it.

Whatever it's about, I honestly cannot help myself in watching it and observing what makes it all come together. The video below obviously is about something else entirely...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Rs1dPPu_4


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > Like yours or anyone elses? this is the internet, everyones an expert
> ...


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> > Dave and Don may be but Nicole isn't. Move along Chris.
> ...


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen that more often than I've seen a person freeze and look like they were praying. It's my experience that actually being bit generally produces two results: fight or flight (or attempted flight). The person either fights back or tries to get away from the dog biting them. Generally, the pain does not produce a freezing response. Usually, the freezing happens when a non-aggressive dog person is approached by a dog they fear may bite. Note that I said, non-aggressive. I've never seen someone who is already agitated and looking for trouble just decide that going catatonic is a reasonable response.
> ...


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> > You know maybe there is no right answer to this too, no one size fits everything.
> ...


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Grant Cusworth said:


> Interesting as hell from a behavioral standpoint.* I've always been suspicious of my dogs that if I were in a fight for my life and it didn't look good, my dogs may side with the attacker thinking that they were supporting the new "alpha" male. *And I'm sure others have seen this with their dogs, but my dogs are 10 times more aggressive and alert when I'm away from home. The head K9 in the family really steps up and his demeanor towards people is notably different when I'm away. But when I'm home he's a chillin' machine.
> 
> Grant


Grant, what you said makes me wonder about bonding issues more than anything. Wolves are not dogs and dogs are not wolves, but even in wolf packs, the "alpha pair" is simply the breeding pair (usually) of the family. What you're suggesting is like an attacker to come in and beat up or kill the father or mother and then the kids join in with the attacker. That doesn't seem logical, unless there are serious problems in the relationship. :-k


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

If it were me doing the testing, I would not even consider wrestling Don to the ground as suggested - my head, neck unprotected low down with an untrained (i.e. not taught to bite arms, legs) dog potentially trying to bite me.

Don has a multitude of dogs, so that makes testing easier - one scenario per dog, that'll stop one dog getting overworked or wise to the situation.
I'd do a few scenarios at home in the yard, maybe one in the house (a person who Don invites in and later turns aggressive).
Would also do a few scenarios out and about, as I described earlier.

I would be interested if one of his dogs would break off mid hunt to defend Don - once they were on scent etc. Also if there was a difference between the males and bitches - youngsters too?


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Grant, what you said makes me wonder about bonding issues more than anything. Wolves are not dogs and dogs are not wolves, but even in wolf packs, the "alpha pair" is simply the breeding pair (usually) of the family. What you're suggesting is like an attacker to come in and beat up or kill the father or mother and then the kids join in with the attacker. That doesn't seem logical, unless there are serious problems in the relationship. :-k



No problem with my relationship with my dogs. And what you're suggesting is that dogs are like people? You can't apply human behavior with canine behavior. Analogies are fine, but you're projecting traits/behavours here. My dogs aren't my "kids". They're psuedo family members be sure, but I don't blur the line between human family members and my dogs. I've seen more behavior problems and battles between owners and their dogs when their pets are treated like children. I'd also suggest dogs are a lot closer in behavior and pack dynamics to a wolf than to a human.

Sorry spinning off the thread topic here, but wanted to address that.

Grant


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think you misunderstand...I was making an analogy, yes. However, as I said, the subordinate wolves aren't constantly jockeying to overthrow their parents, the alpha pair. If they want to become "alpha wolves" (a term that has now fallen out of favor in the literature), they simply disperse and go start their own breeding pair and then pack. 

Are there dogs out there that end up in charge because their owners treat them like children without discipline? Sure. But that wasn't typically because the dog was so dominant and was such a BAMF. It was because the dog was feeling insecure and not getting good leadership, so they pick up the slack. The term dominant can apply every once in a great while, but not very often. 

If you had a good relationship with your dogs, you would not need to worry about them joining in with an attacker. I don't think dogs aren't constantly plotting a coup d'e'tat against us. If you'll allow me another human analogy, your earlier comment about one of your guys having more of a threat display when you are gone is more like the son stepping up and being "the man of the house" when his father's gone. Doesn't mean he's planning to kill Dad when he comes home. ;-)


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

A misunderstanding indeed. Great post. And please understand, it was merely a "wonder"... I don't think it would happen, but???.... 

One other tidbit for thought before we get tossed off this thread for good;

I have a retired RIII mal in the house. He's 13 years old and has always been the head of the canine unit around here. Since he's started aging he's starting to really break down physically from all his hard work as a young man. The younger mals around the house have always respected his place and space, however, more than a couple times the old guy has stumbled, fallen or cried out and looked really awful and one of the younger ones is up and forward on him, and it's my belief that the young one is moving in to finish him off. I know what my dogs look like and how they carry themselves and this wasn't a "Hey! Are you OK buddy?" This was aggressive and fast. I verbally intervened on all occasions and stopped it before it would start, but how's that for wolf-like behavior in domestic dogs? And again, I'm 1000% certain of the younger dog's intention. Not even debatable. Pretty scary and since then the old guy isn't around the young guys without my wife or I present....

Grant



Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think you misunderstand...I was making an analogy, yes. However, as I said, the subordinate wolves aren't constantly jockeying to overthrow their parents, the alpha pair. If they want to become "alpha wolves" (a term that has now fallen out of favor in the literature), they simply disperse and go start their own breeding pair and then pack.
> 
> Are there dogs out there that end up in charge because their owners treat them like children without discipline? Sure. But that wasn't typically because the dog was so dominant and was such a BAMF. It was because the dog was feeling insecure and not getting good leadership, so they pick up the slack. The term dominant can apply every once in a great while, but not very often.
> 
> If you had a good relationship with your dogs, you would not need to worry about them joining in with an attacker. I don't think dogs aren't constantly plotting a coup d'e'tat against us. If you'll allow me another human analogy, your earlier comment about one of your guys having more of a threat display when you are gone is more like the son stepping up and being "the man of the house" when his father's gone. Doesn't mean he's planning to kill Dad when he comes home. ;-)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, based on your dogs' interactions, that is a certainly a possible conclusion. The younger dogs sound like they are looking strongly on your reaction as well. I am curious, what's the reaction of your old guy? I put my oldest to sleep a few months ago and the last years of his life, he was very subordinate. Always deferred to all my other dogs and ended up being pretty mellow around even foster dogs the last 2 or so years of his life. In his younger years, he was pretty pushy and dog aggressive. I wonder if it at some point, there was some incident and he had to back down and realized that was the best place to be. I suspect for your old guy, he's either got to give or be separated from your younger dogs. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

And don't misunderstand, I think there is a pack order and dogs can be opportunists (that's how they came to be domesticated, after all), but I think we attribute way, way too much to "dominance" and not nearly enough to pushy or rude behavior simply being rewarded either intentionally or unintentionally. The little Chihuahua snarling and snapping out some lady's handbag is not necessarily a dominant, nasty BAMF. Give him some rules and make him walk on his own four feet and he might actually be pretty agreeable.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Grant Cusworth said:


> But it's vital I believe that the dog is off leash.



That almost goes without saying, right?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Grant Cusworth said:


> I have no dog in this fight... but really? Do people still believe that their dogs will protect them? I always find it comical when people make this claim about an untested, untrained dog from a breed that hasn't been developed to do such. Hell, people are out there breeding for generations on lines that have proven they've got the right stuff and if they get one or two pups out of a litter from proven breeding stock with generations of success in their pedigree they feel they've had a great breeding. Sure, a majority of the litter may be trained for some sport or another, or perhaps can be cornered and taught that if it lashes out in aggression the threat goes away... repeat that enough times and the dog may rise to the occasion. But I"m talking about that one or two very special animals that are so dominant and confident that they truly feel they're the most swinging-est dick in town. The dog that shows no aggression towards people unless they're a true threat, the dog that couldn't give a crap about another animal around unless it came over and bothered him, the dog that never hackles or barks at strangers. The one that you won't know it's real until it's too late because they haven't felt the need to puff up and look tough and scary. Because in that special dog's mind, there's no need for bravado, they KNOW they can tear anyone apart. Then my neighbor tells me about their -insert breed here- that "would protect me if I was in trouble". ha ha ha
> 
> I'm down to five mals at my house now, and was up at six of them once. Without exception I had 5 that would really make a guy think twice before walking through that gate. Lot's of growling, teeth, barking etc. Real badass's... lol. But there's only one that I would count on if it came down to it. That would be the one that would just lie on the front porch and watch the other 5 go nuts... Be sure, you'd get bit by all if you turned your back on them, or acted afraid. But if you challenged back and charged them? They'd shrivel up pretty quick. And these were all dogs from working lines that were produced for the expressed purpose of protection work. So why is it, that when the entire focus has been to produce a protection animal, and nothing else, is the success rate so low in reality? Yet people think that their purpose built retrieving dog will step up to the plate and hit a homer for them?
> 
> ...


Grant, I just got in earlier this afternoon and have been catching up as I had two litters hit the ground while I was gone. I am going to comment on your post briefly....and Ricks. As was pointed out to Dave on my board, one thing I will not tolerate in my dogs, none of them, is people aggression. They are good as gold with people and with kids. The love kids and are gentle as can be with them. They are no dog aggressive with 99% of the dogs bred today. The 1% trully dominate dogs are the only ones they look for in dog parks or in public. They go straight to them and stand in front of them and quietly stare at them. No growling or posturing. The dog either curs or fights and none of these dogs care which they do. It is a PITA at times when I have to move the males to different yards because I have to lock down everyone in the yards in between. As to why, when people are breeding for this they don't get it? Because people are not breeding for it really. They spend way to much time looking for ball drives and BS like that. 90$ f the people believe an overly aggressive dog is a dominate dog or and alpha dog. Obviously, you have seem dogs like I have out in the yard....and they nonchalantly hike there leg on all strangers with indifference. You may have seen some of the pedigrees on these dogs. Most people have never seen dogs of this nature. You have because you described them to a T. I wouldn't attempt to tell you how many have been culled along the way.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> That almost goes without saying, right?


I mentioned that way back in a post...they will be unleashed so I won't have to listen to the fear biting officionado's.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

rick smith said:


> according to the set up (and i know there will be more details to hammer out), i don't see the "protection of Don" aspect in this event at all
> haven't read every post but quite a few
> 
> all i see are aggressive, (only used to hunt/kill game and culled if they don't), untrained (never been around humans much at all; aka : HIGHLY unsocial towards humans) dogs that will be guarding their turf ...
> ...


Rick, they are people dogs, not at all aggressive with people. Love people. People come in and leave notes pinned to my door off and on. Like Grant said in a previous post, they are a different kind of dog. They aren't afraid because they know they can hurt you worse than you can hurt them. They will stay in the fight with large predators and the worse they get hurt, the harder they fight. I have had dogs in fights that were scarey, they finished them and walked to the truck. I did have to put them in the truck. After the ride home and the adrenaline rush was over. I had to lift them out of the truck and carry them to a table where I could see how many broken ribs they had, punctured stomach, etc. The scariest moment I have had was stopping them when they when after people. One time the dog was already in the air and planted both front feet in the guys chest. The guy thought he would be funny and sneak up on me. The dog was a year old and I didn't know if he was past the point of hearing me yell at him. They do know what "No!' means. The young dogs can be worriesome because you don't know if they have connected all the dots yet.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Rick, I missed the main point I wanted to bring up. You think the way this is going to be handled has nothing to do with the dog protecting me if I am screaming and yelling and winding the dog up. What do you think a sane person is going to do if he is being attacked? Of course I am going to yelling and swearing. Do you think all people are just going to roll over? It is still protection. Thje whole thing is, this isn't really a test of my dogs Rick. It is more. It is a test to see if those that keep swearing an untrained dog won't protect are right. I say they are doing what they keep accusing others of doing....they are talking about things they don't have a clue about. That is what this is about.

This part isn't directed you Rick. Same goes for all the posts suggesting the experament be conducted away from the house. People been playing these games to long. Where do you think home invasions, burglaries and rapes take place....on the street corner? Conversley, what is the likelyhood a mugger is going to pick you to mug if you have a 100 lb dog on your arm. Zero! Most situations where a dog is going to be available to actually protect is going to be at home.....provided he isn't kenneled or crated. I know most here are trying to hedge their bets with this nonsence, but, it is nonsense. Two scenarios were described by member in one of Jehane's threads....both took place at home. So, let's get real so I can quit laughing about the ones trying to sound dog savy..


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

welcome back, don. we need a date and rules.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Rick, I missed the main point I wanted to bring up. You think the way this is going to be handled has nothing to do with the dog protecting me if I am screaming and yelling and winding the dog up. What do you think a sane person is going to do if he is being attacked? Of course I am going to yelling and swearing. Do you think all people are just going to roll over? It is still protection. Thje whole thing is, this isn't really a test of my dogs Rick. It is more. It is a test to see if those that keep swearing an untrained dog won't protect are right. I say they are doing what they keep accusing others of doing....they are talking about things they don't have a clue about. That is what this is about.
> 
> This part isn't directed you Rick. Same goes for all the posts suggesting the experament be conducted away from the house. People been playing these games to long. Where do you think home invasions, burglaries and rapes take place....on the street corner? Conversley, what is the likelyhood a mugger is going to pick you to mug if you have a 100 lb dog on your arm. Zero! Most situations where a dog is going to be available to actually protect is going to be at home.....provided he isn't kenneled or crated. I know most here are trying to hedge their bets with this nonsence, but, it is nonsense. Two scenarios were described by member in one of Jehane's threads....both took place at home. So, let's get real so I can quit laughing about the ones trying to sound dog savy..


Didn't you mention a dog of yours trying to bite someone out of your vehicle?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Rick, I missed the main point I wanted to bring up. You think the way this is going to be handled has nothing to do with the dog protecting me if I am screaming and yelling and winding the dog up. What do you think a sane person is going to do if he is being attacked? Of course I am going to yelling and swearing. Do you think all people are just going to roll over? It is still protection. Thje whole thing is, this isn't really a test of my dogs Rick. It is more. It is a test to see if those that keep swearing an untrained dog won't protect are right. I say they are doing what they keep accusing others of doing....they are talking about things they don't have a clue about. That is what this is about.
> 
> This part isn't directed you Rick. Same goes for all the posts suggesting the experament be conducted away from the house. People been playing these games to long. Where do you think home invasions, burglaries and rapes take place....on the street corner? Conversley, what is the likelyhood a mugger is going to pick you to mug if you have a 100 lb dog on your arm. Zero! Most situations where a dog is going to be available to actually protect is going to be at home.....provided he isn't kenneled or crated. I know most here are trying to hedge their bets with this nonsence, but, it is nonsense. Two scenarios were described by member in one of Jehane's threads....both took place at home. So, let's get real so I can quit laughing about the ones trying to sound dog savy..


Don - I don't think Dave has ever said an untrained dog won't protect. I recall he's actually said a few times that he believes untrained dogs will bite. I also believe the same. I think we're just curious because rarely does some one have such conviction in their dogs' abilities and afford someone the opportunity to test that. Normally, when we test "personal protection dogs," they are ill bred house pets that have been put on a pedestal. It's not easy to show someone that their dog would tuck tail and run if threatened. I'm speaking for Dave here, but I think we're both actually very interested to see what your dogs will do and we're not hoping for one outcome or another.

I've volunteered to make the drive with Dave and film whatever takes place. Although you and I disagree on certain accounts, I have the ability to be rational and completely unbiased and will just be a totally impartial third party. I have no idea how to edit videos so I'm not going to be posting videos that support one agenda or another.

We're waiting on you for details so we can plan this trip.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

ariel peldunas said:


> don - i don't think dave has ever said an untrained dog won't protect. I recall he's actually said a few times that he believes untrained dogs will bite. I also believe the same. I think we're just curious because rarely does some one have such conviction in their dogs' abilities and afford someone the opportunity to test that. Normally, when we test "personal protection dogs," they are ill bred house pets that have been put on a pedestal. It's not easy to show someone that their dog would tuck tail and run if threatened. I'm speaking for dave here, but i think we're both actually very interested to see what your dogs will do and we're not hoping for one outcome or another.
> 
> I've volunteered to make the drive with dave and film whatever takes place. Although you and i disagree on certain accounts, i have the ability to be rational and completely unbiased and will just be a totally impartial third party. I have no idea how to edit videos so i'm not going to be posting videos that support one agenda or another.
> 
> We're waiting on you for details so we can plan this trip.


roooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad trrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiipppppppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If you guys come through Missouri from the east, we'd love to have you. Please don't be shy, I'll make sure sure our club would chip in room 'n board for some training time! PSA partay!!!


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If you guys come through Missouri from the east, we'd love to have you. Please don't be shy, I'll make sure sure our club would chip in room 'n board for some training time! PSA partay!!!


Heck yes! I'm sure we could make it from Ohio to California by way of Missouri. I fall asleep on road trips, most of the time, and Dave's sense of direction sucks (ask him about the time we made a few loops around DC before he woke me up to ask how to get off the beltway), so we wouldn't know if it was on the way or not!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If you guys come through Missouri from the east, we'd love to have you. Please don't be shy, I'll make sure sure our club would chip in room 'n board for some training time! PSA partay!!!



Sounds awesome. And for the record, my sense of direction is fine, I sometimes sleep on road trips too, which is why I circled DC!!! Don't tell Ariel, she may not feel safe.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don. In the interest of not dragging this out, we need to make some decisions.

North Fork, CA which where your PO box is about 38 hours from here. I am guessing 72 hour drive with a short lay over in Missouri with Maren. I need YOU to set a date to plan the trip. 

Please list exactly what you want me to do, what you are going to do, and how much pressure you want me to put on the dog. 

I am going to be wearing an old training weight Demenet suit, or carharts and an ALM suit top, and have a rock jug in my hand. I may come with a hidden sleeve, we'll see how I feel.

WHAT I PROPOSE : You sit/stand on your porch if it is within eyesight of the gate with one untrained dog off leash. , I come in the front gate. I am going to advance toward you and your dog. I will continue to advance, and yell and make noise until you release him to bite, no hitting during the entire test. Release him when you want. 5 feet. 10 feet. 30 feet. Then I will do what I deem necessary to get them to bite better if they engage, as the test is not about them taking a lot of pressure while biting a suit. You want to see if they'll bite, and don't care if they bite and release. I got it.

Once this is over, you need a plan to catch your dog up. If they are biting still, I'll move to the gate, you come lift them off, test is over. If he is running around clacking their teeth at me or no longer in my immediate vicinity, I'll walk to the gate and leave. That should conclude the test to everyones satisfaction. Please let me know if you have any other requests.


I'd rather set this up away from your area, maybe me threatening you in your vehicle, you let the dog come out as this was a situation you have already encountered. This would be a more impartial test with no other dogs barking to help the pack mentality. You have two choices. I just want you to pick, so we can set a date and begin the drive.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Don; 
i get what you are saying about the dogs being fine with people coming in to post notes on the door, etc 
- that obviously confirms they are not "mostly wild" dogs that have not been around people etc etc (which is what i was incorrectly assuming), and just guarding their turf
- and i also get that people getting harassed or attacked will usually make noise 

- with that said, i would think they "camera" could walk in first and go to the porch and "post a note" "unmolested", and set up there to catch it all from right behind you as Dave then comes in to harass you....correct assumption ?
- if that would happen in sequence i think there would be no doubt they are protecting you when they bite


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Don;
> i get what you are saying about the dogs being fine with people coming in to post notes on the door, etc
> - that obviously confirms they are not "mostly wild" dogs that have not been around people etc etc (which is what i was incorrectly assuming), and just guarding their turf
> - and i also get that people getting harassed or attacked will usually make noise
> ...



Nice idea Rick. Just have to get some dates to pick from, so we can get it done.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> > _NOTE: Holy guacamole .... I don't know how all the quotes were attributed to the wrong posters, but it would be great if posters would check their own posts and fix 'em if they're screwed up. :lol: When I was PMed to fix quote attributions in the thread, little did I dream it was half the thread. _
> ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I thought they were all doing it deliberately for crack, I thought it was funny ! :lol:
> 
> Anyway, it appears folks are still trotting round the bushes !


Maggie, if you are "doing it deliberately for crack," forget it. I am not giving you any crack. :lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Maggie, if you are "doing it deliberately for crack," forget it. I am not giving you any crack. :lol:


No need for yiour crack Connie, me, myself and I can create our own crack all on our own ! :-D


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Maggie, if you are "doing it deliberately for crack," forget it. I am not giving you any crack. :lol:


I noticed that the quotes were incorrect, but whenever I'd try to edit what was in the quotes, I'd screw it up somehow. I figured I should just leave well enough alone.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don.

Are you backing out? Need a date to plan for work.

Dave


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don ?? Don ?? Hello, is anybody there ??


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don.
> 
> Are you backing out? Need a date to plan for work.
> 
> Dave


Maybe the recent line out of Vegas got him second guessing :razz:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am here, I still have other things to do and have been giving this some thought and checking dates. Got the two litters of pups out there and a million yellow jackets to take care of plus work.

I am NOT available Sept 8th, 9th, 24th, 25th. Any other time is fine. All of Oct is clear as far as I know.

Call when you get here so I can secure the other gates and remove the bitches from the yard beforehand. Ariel can come in and stay on the deck to video, not in the yard. Titan will be the only dog in the yard. It is pretty much the scenario Rick suggested that Dave thought was alright. We can go over particulars. We can do a carjack scenario with Odin. I will pick a place off the main road where there are no houses.

I will write up a simple aggreement and post it for you to agree to in a day or so. You will accept all liability, as the professional, in case of injury. You will also acknowledge that it has been fully exlpained to you that the dogs are not equipment trained and will not out on there own....should they bite of course. 

The agreement may not be iron clad, but, a lot of people here will be fully aware that you volunteered for this.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

sounds good. Just want to clarify titan is untrained. I'll protect myself and my safety is up to me. But, titan has never been worked on a man with or without equipment?

I'll talk with ariel and get a date set!




Don Turnipseed said:


> I am here, I still have other things to do and have been giving this some thought and checking dates. Got the two litters of pups out there and a million yellow jackets to take care of plus work.
> 
> I am NOT available Sept 8th, 9th, 24th, 25th. Any other time is fine. All of Oct is clear as far as I know.
> 
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

On other safety note. If it goes poorly, please note the location of the closest va hospital.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> On other safety note. If it goes poorly, please note the location of the closest va hospital.


Fresno


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> sounds good. Just want to clarify titan is untrained. I'll protect myself and my safety is up to me. But, titan has never been worked on a man with or without equipment?
> 
> I'll talk with ariel and get a date set!


None of the dogs has been worked on a man or a woman. As a matter of fact I knock the crap out of them if they even growl at a person. The only one the males have bit is me testing to see what would happen....they never did it agan. The girls have bit me several times. Ex wife spent eleven days in the hospital when she interferred in a fight between the girls. We are not doing girls.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

when is this going down?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Odin hasn't even been in a car since he was a pup.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> when is this going down?


We'll know when Ariel tells Dave when he can.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Odin hasn't even been in a car since he was a pup.


You might be a hick when :smile:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> You might be a hick when :smile:


And proud of it Chris. Odin is the 2007 Nat'l Master Fur dog. Yes, he has been to Oh. Wasn't impressed. The nationals were held at Buckeye about an hour out of Columbus. He is the dog that walked through pissing on everyone. Airedales are normally 40 to 55 lbs. Odin is 105 and quick as a snake.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don.
> 
> Are you backing out? Need a date to plan for work.
> 
> Dave


Dave, are you backing out? Need a date to -plan for work.
Don


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, are you backing out? Need a date to -plan for work.
> Don


Don't panic Don, don't let the excitement get to you. Dogs bite (or not) every day.

I didn't get a hold of Ariel last night via phone. 

I did get a voice mail this AM from her and sooner is better. We'll get it worked out shortly. Just stick to your end of it, do the agreement. Now that you are committed, this isn't about you, it's about your dogs biting or not.

You are getting a free test of your dogs and a great plug for your for your dog sales. You might PM me an address if you really want me to come. 

Also, exactly what you want for a test, Rick wasn't that specific, I'd like you to spell it out. Unless you want to go with you and ariel on the porch, I open the gate and come in, you let the dog go. Or I can open the gate with Titan on the other side of it and both of you on the porch. This is where specifics will help. I don't want nor does Nicole want anything amiss on your end, or any miscommunication. 

Remember, it's just a test.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If you guys come through Missouri from the east, we'd love to have you. Please don't be shy, I'll make sure sure our club would chip in room 'n board for some training time! PSA partay!!!




I am doing the route. Where are you located in MO??


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave said


> Don't panic Don, don't let the excitement get to you. Dogs bite (or not) every day.


LMAO. Don't get excited? Maybe you missed the quote. That was your quote....word for word.

We will get to the particulars when we have a date. I will keep Titan on the deck with me more than likeley because the gate is about 35/40 yds from the deck and Ariel will be filming from the deck. Going to work now.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

PS, have Maren show you the picture of her mal in th carjacking scenario. Maren was impressed as hell with that display.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave said
> 
> 
> LMAO. Don't get excited? Maybe you missed the quote. That was your quote....word for word.
> ...



Right. I assumed you were in a panic because you had to cut and paste, with 4000 and some posts to your credit. Standby for a date. Looking forward to meeting you...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave said


> You are getting a free test of your dogs and a great plug for your for your dog sales.


Dave, you have a problem with comprehension? What this all came about for was trainers continually saying untrained dogs won't bite. The reason you are doing it is because someone else is footing the bill. Now, it is a freeby for two of you. You were the only one that jumped on the free pup offer. The boxer in the vid was a freebie and you like to train lb dogs because they are cheap. This is not your first trip with Ariel....make the most of it and stop the innuendo. Until it was a freeby you were not interested. Bottom line, what is being tested is not my dogs, it is the validity of whether or not untrained dogs will protect. No more, no less. Two dogs is it. They bite or they don't. You got your moral support to come now let's just get it done.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I am doing the route. Where are you located in MO??


I'm in Columbia right in the middle of the state, but we train out in the west side of St. Louis in a town called Wentzville. It's right by the intersection of I-70 and I-64. I-70 heads out to Kansas and then Colorado from there.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> PS, have Maren show you the picture of her mal in th carjacking scenario. Maren was impressed as hell with that display.


Please Don, show us the picture of your two dogs wrestling on their backs with their teeth again for the 20th time. That was so much more impressive than me who was actually working my dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Odin hasn't even been in a car since he was a pup [...]
> 
> And proud of it Chris. Odin is the 2007 Nat'l Master Fur dog. Yes, he has been to Oh. Wasn't impressed. The nationals were held at Buckeye about an hour out of Columbus. He is the dog that walked through pissing on everyone. Airedales are normally 40 to 55 lbs. Odin is 105 and quick as a snake.


So he's never been in the car since he was a pup...did he walk himself to the airport or to Ohio? And why are you so proud of your dog pissing on people? That's not impressive, that's a dog (and owner) with absolutely no manners.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave said
> 
> 
> Dave, you have a problem with comprehension? What this all came about for was trainers continually saying untrained dogs won't bite. The reason you are doing it is because someone else is footing the bill. Now, it is a freeby for two of you. You were the only one that jumped on the free pup offer. The boxer in the vid was a freebie and you like to train lb dogs because they are cheap. This is not your first trip with Ariel....make the most of it and stop the innuendo. Until it was a freeby you were not interested. Bottom line, what is being tested is not my dogs, it is the validity of whether or not untrained dogs will protect. No more, no less. Two dogs is it. They bite or they don't. You got your moral support to come now let's just get it done.


lol. I thought you were going to work? lb dogs?

Is North Fork close to your house, since you won't send an address?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> lol. I thought you were going to work? lb dogs?
> 
> Is North Fork close to your house, since you won't send an address?


You will get an address if you ever set a date. I made it as easy as possible by leaving a whole two months open except for 4 days.

I did go to work but, I had to wait for my teeth to finish soaking if you really want to know.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Please Don, show us the picture of your two dogs wrestling on their backs with their teeth again for the 20th time. That was so much more impressive than me who was actually working my dog.


LOL I am sorry Maren. You may have been working that dog but, you put the pic up because you thought it showed a fierce looking dog. Let's see it again.

As far as the dog not being in a car and getting to the nationals. What is it some say, "Duh". He has been in a crate in the back of a truck if that is what you are trying to figure out. Same way he gets to where...."I am going to work them". LOL Nope, It didn't sound any more impressive when I said it than when you did. LOL Maren, I will be so happy for you if my dogs don't bite. It will surely make your day....but don't get your hopes up. Making you happy will justify having egg on my face. I do believe there is a bright side to everything. LOL

Oh, and the pissing on people, shows character in a dog.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Dang, lots of posts for posturing and soapboxing. I've tested lots of puppies for working dogs. Once in a while you see the puppy in the upside-down dominance test that looks you square in the eye. You just get the feeling it's saying, "if i was bigger then I'd kick your butt...." Same puppies race in to attack the pie pans clattering in the air over their heads rather than holding or running. Not the sharpest tacks in the drawer, but you're pretty sure they'll not run from a fight.
Over the years I've always tested my dogs to see what they will do with strangers by sneaking up on them from downwind and going "boo!". I was only able to do it three times with the wolfdog, but every time he simply vanished. I'd laugh and I'd see gold eyes appearing from a long ways away.
I had two dogs, both spayed females, that I could depend on to leave in my truck with the windows down. I knew both would not hesitate to wrap their teeth around someone's invading arm. I knew both would hold until I said to let go. One was a lab and one was an airedale. It's not the breed, it's the roll of the genetic dice. Neither was trained to protect. I accepted both as they were. Both were trained as puppies to inhibit bite by me which is why I think they held their grips. If the offender had yanked their arm away, skin would have torn.

My favorite episode was when a 16 year old kid was hopping up on my tailgate to give me some crap and suddenly the lab's teeth has his right butt cheek firmly gripped. She never made a sound. Neither dog ever did. He reached down a hand to grab her muzzle and the teeth tightened causing him to gasp. I told her to let go and she did. He decided he'd had enough.

Police will tell you that a yapping dog is the best defense. Veterinarians will tell you they know when a burglary ring is about to strike as dogs start dying in the neighborhood.

Barking and jumping at the sleeve is all nice and showy, but I'd much rather have a smart dog that stays quiet and uses its mouth carefully and expertly. I may have to look for another as such dogs do come in handy....and as I said, I never trained them to be that way.


Respectfully,

Jim Delbridge

Oh, yea, I used to have a GSD whose "piss on leg" command was "mailbox." It definitely came in handy with salespersons and Jehovah Witnesses.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3969&catid=member&imageuser=101

She's a certified therapy dog, of course she's not a "fierce dog." I don't own any "fierce dogs." And I say all the time my male is a sport dog, not a maneater or firebreather or some hardcore executive level personal protection dog. :roll: Both my Malinois just need to be a deterrent and bark. That's all I need them to do. I'll take care of the rest. 

So unlike you and most people with good sense, I don't claim my dogs will or won't do anything untested. Even if I had the best dog on the planet, I still wouldn't because I don't have that much ego about my dogs. I agree with Dave and Ariel. I honestly do not care if your dogs bite or if they don't. I am just bored of unproven claims that you KNOW they will protect you. NO, YOU DON'T KNOW. That's the point.



> As far as the dog not being in a car and getting to the nationals. What is it some say, "Duh". He has been in a crate in the back of a truck if that is what you are trying to figure out. Same way he gets to where...."I am going to work them". LOL Nope, It didn't sound any more impressive when I said it than when you did.


Riding in a crate in a truck. Wow. A fine accomplishment. 



> Oh, and the pissing on people, shows character in a dog.


That probably explains, among many other reasons, your high divorce rate.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bottom line, what is being tested is not my dogs, it is the validity of whether or not untrained dogs will protect. No more, no less.


Oops. Hit the button too soon...

To the above, if that is ALL that's being tested, you could go to the pound and get some of their dogs to test. Would be much more of a fair reflection on the types of dogs out there that people claim will protect them no matter what. A few untrained dogs do protect. Is that a good reason to get a dog for protection, and never train him??

If you get a dog for protection, your chances are better with training and testing, to KNOW what he will do, and to be able to control him.

It is your dogs being tested, as well as your claim that your dogs will protect.

I look forward to the videos, no matter what happens, I really like watching behavior...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

excuse---OT for this thread, but 
Jim : "I used to have a GSD whose "piss on leg" command was "mailbox." It definitely came in handy with salespersons and Jehovah Witnesses."
if you're serious.....i'd really like to know how you trained that ! 
we have JW's in Japan too, and a few obnoxious people i really don't like 

right now, when i know my dog needs to drain the dragon, and i know his body language for that, i CAN get him to hold it with a "wait" until i find an appropriate place, and then i can then give him a simple "pissonit" and he will.
- but i've never been able to figure out how to train one to piss on command anywhere i point em ... what did you do ?? no hand signal, just verbal ??


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Road Trip = Colorado Stop?*



> I-70 heads out to Kansas and then Colorado from there.


Dave or Ariel

My club training field is near the I-70/I-25 intersection. If you want to stop on your way to Don's place and work dogs or just meet and stretch your legs and/or grab something to eat. Let me
know


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

That'd work pretty well actually as a stop over if they're still driving. It's a full day's drive (like 14 hours depending on where you're going) from Missouri to Colorado. The drive through Kansas is really boring, I hate it. No getting around that though...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> She's a certified therapy dog, of course she's not a "fierce dog." I don't own any "fierce dogs." And I say all the time my male is a sport dog, not a maneater or firebreather or some hardcore executive level personal protection dog. :roll: Both my Malinois just need to be a deterrent and bark. That's all I need them to do. I'll take care of the rest.


You put the picture up to show me what a real dog looked like. Backpeddle all you want. 



> So unlike you and most people with good sense, I don't claim my dogs will or won't do anything untested. Even if I had the best dog on the planet, I still wouldn't because I don't have that much ego about my dogs. I agree with Dave and Ariel. I honestly do not care if your dogs bite or if they don't. I am just bored of unproven claims that you KNOW they will protect you. NO, YOU DON'T KNOW. That's the point.


You must be inferring most trainers don't have good sense then because they are always saying dogs won't protect without being trained. Most dogs in bitesports won't either of course, training or no training. So, if trainers can make blanket statements about untrained dogs they have never seen regardless where or whose they are....I can certainly be afforded the same indiscretion of saying they will....much to your consternation of course. I also said they have never bitten anyone and may end up with egg on my face. Sticks in your craw for some reason doesn't it. 



> Riding in a crate in a truck. Wow. A fine accomplishment.


Not really....but it was to complicated for you to figure out. Are you blonde? 



> That probably explains, among many other reasons, your high divorce rate.


Saved your best for last as usual. Sucks when you make a fool out of yourself doesn't it. Always got to add a personal note. A sure sign that you already know how lame your whole post was.
'
I only brought up your picture because you have tried to be so catty through two threads.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Simple. When I was training him to heel, he wanted to wiz on every mailbox along the way. I'd correct him with "no mailbox" for about 20 mailboxes then if he was good he got, "ok, mailbox"......

Not really hard at all.

Jim


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Thomas and Maren ...thank you both for welcoming us to stop by. Right now, we're trying to figure out which would be the most economical option - flying or driving. Seems that it's probably going to make the most sense to fly, considering both money and time, but that's still debatable. I've always wanted to do a cross country drive, but as epic as this road trip sounds, Dave and I might both have obligations that wouldn't allow for our extended absence. 

Don ...I've been looking at flights and different airports. We don't need an exact address at this point. Could you tell me, is North Fork close enough to where you live to use it as our final destination for travel plans? Flights into Fresno are considerably more expensive than flights into Vegas. It's a 7 hour drive from Vegas to North Fork because we can't drive straight through Death Valley. That would still probably make it the less expensive option, but I'd like to make sure all my information is correct, hence the need for your location. You don't have to be specific. I understand you don't want two strangers knowing exactly where you live, but could you at least confirm a nearby town?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Oops. Hit the button too soon...
> 
> To the above, if that is ALL that's being tested, you could go to the pound and get some of their dogs to test. Would be much more of a fair reflection on the types of dogs out there that people claim will protect them no matter what. A few untrained dogs do protect. Is that a good reason to get a dog for protection, and never train him??
> 
> ...


No Anne, my dog isn't being tested. There is a lot more to testing a dog than just seeing if he will bite. Even trained dogs onlt bite while doing the exercise much of the time. Training is more about controlling a dog that will bite than it is about teaching a dog "to" bite. Lot of dogs that are trained to bite won't bite when the chips are down, training or no training. What you have just brought to the table, knowingly or not, is what competition has done to the dogs today. How many post have you seen where people think the test should be away from my property. A dog that doesn't have the nerve to bite isn't going to bite without being backed in a corner. It is that simple. Dave said that the ruckus from the other dogs will hype up the dog we are checking. Sure, it may hype him up and he will bark more maybe. Still won't make him jump in and bite if he hasn't got it in him....... unless one of the other dogs is right there with him. A bay dog is a bay dog unless he has a strong dog to follow. And, I agree, I could go to the pound and pick a dog that will bite....but at that point, we lose the "protect" element. What I want to see is if trainers just say this to make money training dogs or if it is true.

At any rate, this is all irrelevant at this point. The ball is in Daves court. I am available anytime for two months excluding the 4 days mentioned. Made it real easy.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Thomas and Maren ...thank you both for welcoming us to stop by. Right now, we're trying to figure out which would be the most economical option - flying or driving. Seems that it's probably going to make the most sense to fly, considering both money and time, but that's still debatable. I've always wanted to do a cross country drive, but as epic as this road trip sounds, Dave and I might both have obligations that wouldn't allow for our extended absence.
> 
> Don ...I've been looking at flights and different airports. We don't need an exact address at this point. Could you tell me, is North Fork close enough to where you live to use it as our final destination for travel plans? Flights into Fresno are considerably more expensive than flights into Vegas. It's a 7 hour drive from Vegas to North Fork because we can't drive straight through Death Valley. That would still probably make it the less expensive option, but I'd like to make sure all my information is correct, hence the need for your location. You don't have to be specific. I understand you don't want two strangers knowing exactly where you live, but could you at least confirm a nearby town?


I am 3 miles out of NF. There is no place to stay in NF. Closest place with lodging is Oakhurst. about 18 mi. Las Vegas is about 8 hours out of Fresno. I am about an hour out of Fresno on the far side. San Jose is about 3 hrs.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh Don, you're just sore and defensive because this isn't your extremely small pond and everyone doesn't venerate you. Someone called you out on your tall tales. People who do actually have really nice dogs like Ariel's (less than one dog per year makes PSA 3) don't usually have to brag constantly like you do how bad ass their dogs are. Their actions speak louder. I'd just like to see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI7YzUKE_wI&ob=av3e


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ariel. His website says come visit us in north fork. I am waiting on a call back from a friend as well to confirm.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Oh Don, you're just sore and defensive because this isn't your extremely small pond and everyone doesn't venerate you. Someone called you out on your tall tales. People who do actually have really nice dogs like Ariel's (less than one dog per year makes PSA 3) don't usually have to brag constantly like you do how bad ass their dogs are. Their actions speak louder. I'd just like to see...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI7YzUKE_wI&ob=av3e


Ariel's dog looks good. Never said it didn't. As a matter of fact, I am glad you got to see what a good dog looks like. See, I can be a nice guy.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Again, missed the point. The point: Ariel is not going around saying what a BAMF her dog is and most trainers that get their dogs to a very high level are also like that. Even though she certainly could because she's shown him and proved it. It's the folks who are like "oh, I don't do competitions because it's a waste of time and I'd just win anyways..." who are almost always full of it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Again, missed the point. The point: Ariel is not going around saying what a BAMF her dog is and most trainers that get their dogs to a very high level are also like that. Even though she certainly could because she's shown him and proved it. It's the folks who are like "oh, I don't do competitions because it's a waste of time and I'd just win anyways..." who are almost always full of it.


Maren, darlin, I didn't miss your point. I ignored it because your just trying to make a case one way or the other. Believe me, if you ever have a good dog, no one will ever hear the end of it. I don't do competitions because they are a waste of time to ME. If they make you feel more important, do it. Then you can put those that don't down. I went to one competition on a dare to put up or shut up and run my dogs against the best....you want to hear that story again? Cost me about $5,000. I do what I do....of course while you act like you are god's gift to dogs because, how did you put it. "At least I am out training my dog." You want to waste your time training the dog, fine. I am not a trainer. Bores the heck out of me actually....but I know BS when I hear it. Good grief, you think training is a dog jumping off a damned dock. Training to me is sitting on the tailgait having a cold one while the dog does what he is bred to do. Not a lot of difference that I can see. Different strokes for different folks you know. I see no purpose in a lot of bitework training because very few trained dogs will "bite to protect" you anyway (That should sound familiar...the old switcharoo, eh). Bite, sure, dogs either trained or untrained will bite. Why they bite is what you will never be able to train except for biting on command. You can't build a protective nature where it doesn't exist. See, training didn't teach you much.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am 3 miles out of NF. There is no place to stay in NF. Closest place with lodging is Oakhurst. about 18 mi. Las Vegas is about 8 hours out of Fresno. I am about an hour out of Fresno on the far side. San Jose is about 3 hrs.


I didn't even think of San Jose. Okay, it seems like a flight into San Jose will probably make the most sense. I'm thinking we can fly in and drive to Oakhurst, get up early the next day and do the testing and then fly out late that night or the next day. I have a feeling you're an early riser, but what's the earliest we could start testing?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I didn't even think of San Jose. Okay, it seems like a flight into San Jose will probably make the most sense. I'm thinking we can fly in and drive to Oakhurst, get up early the next day and do the testing and then fly out late that night or the next day. I have a feeling you're an early riser, but what's the earliest we could start testing?


Say 9:30/10:00. Shouldn't take long.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

sounds interesting i been thinking of meeting you guys in bakersfield for the Airedale Testing, i'm natural at getting dogs to bark or bite me :-( any budy going from SJ to bakersfeild? i can hitch a ride


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I wouldn't do it Ken....they're travelin in a gold truck...might give you nightmares


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don/Maren, how about you two knock it off already or take this shit someplace else? I'm getting more than a little tired of wasting my time wading through the bullshit that keeps getting posted to this thread.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The more the merrier. GF told me not to be an asshole because she is coming maybe....and I am never an asshole when she is around. So let's make the most of it. God that was hard.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Don/Maren, how about you two knock it off already or take this shit someplace else? I'm getting more than a little tired of wasting my time wading through the bullshit that keeps getting posted to this thread.


OK


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> I wouldn't do it Ken....they're travelin in a gold truck...might give you nightmares


hey that dude has been driving by alot less since i posted the thread :wink: now he back at it again and this time watching the people nextdoor to me as well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Don/Maren, how about you two knock it off already or take this shit someplace else? I'm getting more than a little tired of wasting my time wading through the bullshit that keeps getting posted to this thread.



Nicole beat me to it!
This "test" has the potential to be very informative one way or the other. It's something we can ALL possibly learn just a bit more about dogs be it from a training standpoint or behavioral.
Don has acknowledged Nicole's request. Hopefully it wont go any further.
Leave the bs aside!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Don/Maren, how about you two knock it off already or take this shit someplace else? I'm getting more than a little tired of wasting my time wading through the bullshit that keeps getting posted to this thread.


Nicole, I appreciate your ability to fund this little excursion, but Don just doesn't know when to stop running his mouth (just like a terrier!). And it takes me longer to back down once I get going (just like a Rottweiler). Anywho, I gotta be up at about 4 AM as I'm driving to a trial this weekend. I actually dislike trialing immensely. But it's a good test of the training, that's for sure. Even if you don't pass, it sure beats sitting at home in your fortress of solitude being internet expert. :grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Nicole, I appreciate your ability to fund this little excursion, but Don just doesn't know when to stop running his mouth (just like a terrier!). And it takes me longer to back down once I get going (just like a Rottweiler).


Maren my willingness to fund the transportation costs doesn't impact how I feel about the interactions that have taken place here. But it may afford me a little freedom to say exactly what I think about the non productive discussion that has been taking place between you two and a few others. As one professional to another, I would expect you to have the expected degree class and maturity to understand that this isn't the time nor the place for these type of exchanges. But really, is it ever appropriate? 

Sure, I am the first to join in and mess around on this forum, when the situation and cadence of things suggests it's ok to do so, but these tumble weed arguments that keep blowing around here are like a cancer that there's no treatment or cure for.

That aside, I want to clarify something for you. This excursion you refer to as "little" is far from that. It's costing several people money and time and a fair bit of both so please don't try to downplay this project simply because I asked you to demonstrate better judgement and behavior concerning something that is legitimately important to others.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I am not downplaying it and I believe you did not catch my tone in the last post. Maybe you missed it, but if Dave and Ariel end up driving instead of flying, I talked it over with our club at training tonight and we are more than willing putting them up on their journey through Missouri if need be. So yes, Nicole, so I'm also willing to pay for part of it if needed and I'm sure we will enjoy their company and experience if they come this way. 

This is not about being "professional." I am fully aware that anyone can find me and see what I wrote and none of it bothers me. However, people who incessantly run their mouths when they have literally no basis or experience beyond what they read here are also what's a problem on this forum. I consider the WDF something of a large online training club with a diverse membership. Imagine if this was real life and someone showed up to the Schutzhund or Ring or PSA or whatever club talking about how bad ass their dogs were and how they just knew they would protect them...yet they had zero proof. I've trained with a small handful of clubs and they'd be laughed at and likely told to leave. As I've said, I honestly don't care if his dogs bite or protect or not. I am interested in put up or shut up. After all, I am from Missouri. Show me. 

And now I really need to go to bed. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is something to think about that is relevant to this topic. This biting to protect deal came about long ago with Joby. Everyone here has heard how untrained dogs won't bite to protect. They have to be trained to protect. Think about it. I personally don't think you can train a dog to protect that isn't "naturally protective". Any dog can be taught to bite in a given scenario or on command if they have the propensity to bite. Yes, you end up with a dog that will bite....but, for what reason. It is widely accepted that you can't teach a dog to have certain innate behaviors that he just does not possess. The desire to protect is an innate proccess that can't be trained. They have it or they don't.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is something to think about that is relevant to this topic. This biting to protect deal came about long ago with Joby. Everyone here has heard how untrained dogs won't bite to protect. They have to be trained to protect. Think about it. I personally don't think you can train a dog to protect that isn't "naturally protective". Any dog can be taught to bite in a given scenario or on command if they have the propensity to bite. Yes, you end up with a dog that will bite....but, for what reason. It is widely accepted that you can't teach a dog to have certain innate behaviors that he just does not possess. The desire to protect is an innate proccess that can't be trained. They have it or they don't.


Honestly, and I'm probably going to start a whole new discussion on this one, I'd like to see some testing done on dogs that have been trained in protection work. There are some I am completely certain will bite. Others, I'm not so sure. And I'm probably shooting myself in the foot throwing this out there, but I am curious what my dog would do if challenged out of context. I know she has no trouble biting a hidden sleeve and performing in more practical scenarios than just on the training/trial field. I know because I have trained it. But I've never had someone break into my home or threaten me when I wasn't in training mode. She has shown signs that she would probably bite (I'm not going to sit here and list stories because it doesn't really belong on this thread), but because we've trained almost exclusively for sport for the past 5 years, I know often times she looks to me to tell her what to do. I'm fine with this because I use her for more than just protection sports and I don't want her making the decision to just bite someone who is acting weird or drunk or stupid ...but I'd like to stage a middle of the night break in or some other scenario she hasn't seen and see how she reacts without my guidance or with minimal guidance. 

As far as plans for the CA trip ...I'm heading out for the weekend, but Dave and I are hashing out our schedules and will have solid dates soon.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ariel
what you are wondering about would actually make for an interesting thread -SEPARATE- from this one of course 
.......and more importantly should apply to a lot more dog types than a couple of the VERY unique dogs Don breeds, which are getting as rare as hens teeth and won't be a test that could be considered definitive for "dogs in general" once it's completed 
...and will undoubtedly generate lots of flame wars too (or is that an old fashioned cyber term nowadays ?)

'cause for me, simply to bite or not, is not a clear indication a dog is protecting its owner (the way i define "protection"), in the way most people who tell their stories about how their dog "saved" them
- my current house dog is a dingo hybrid, so he's a weird case too, and even tho anyone who suddenly gets in my face WILL get bit, i don't think he would protect me if someone was really attacking me, no matter how much i would like to think he would 
- he will do a pretty fair imitation of an OG, but has never had any protection related training, and won't be getting any....strictly a safe pet now and forever


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is something to think about that is relevant to this topic. This biting to protect deal came about long ago with Joby. Everyone here has heard how untrained dogs won't bite to protect. They have to be trained to protect. Think about it. I personally don't think you can train a dog to protect that isn't "naturally protective". Any dog can be taught to bite in a given scenario or on command if they have the propensity to bite. Yes, you end up with a dog that will bite....but, for what reason. It is widely accepted that you can't teach a dog to have certain innate behaviors that he just does not possess. *The desire to protect is an innate proccess that can't be trained. They have it or they don't.*


No one said an untrained dog cant protect.

The "desire to protect" can be displayed in a lot of different ways...

I did not read all of the thread but are you close to ironing it all out. Is it OK for the tester to try to disuade the dogs from biting him? like try to intimidate them???


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> No one said an untrained dog cant protect.
> 
> The "desire to protect" can be displayed in a lot of different ways...
> 
> I did not read all of the thread but are you close to ironing it all out. Is it OK for the tester to try to disuade the dogs from biting him? like try to intimidate them???


 
I would hope that is part of the test, if not isn't really a test then is it...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker


> No one said an untrained dog cant protect.


Actually is was more like "won't'.

Come on guys. What's going on? Now none of you suddenly never said anything. How did this challenge get this far if no one said anything. Joby you were the one that revived it. Before you said you would like to come out and show me. Show me what? That I only like to think the dogs will protect me because they won't.

Nicole graciouisly made it easy and Joby dissappeared from the board until Dave came forward....to do what? Prove that dogs won't protect unless they are trained.

Now, suddenly, no one said that. 

Guys, IF the dogs go after him, he will have his chance to fight them. Not before they bite....otherwise half the board will say he wasn't protecting. When Ariel comes in with her camera, The first thing I am going to do is walk her around to each yard so she can video how friendly the dogs are to dispell the comments about them being just viscious yard dogs. And just to be clear, by bite, I don't mean a quick nip at the heel. Will be back tomorrow afternoon. Have fun!


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm getting way too excited about this.. how do we get a live feed hooked up?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don. I think everything is archived here. Why don't you find a post that says just that, unless you have been doing a lot of talking on the phone where people said it. Maybe then (a crazy idea) list a name of who said it. It got this far probably because you keep saying "everyone here has heard an untrained dog won't protect". We have all heard it, because you keep repeating it.





Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby Becker
> 
> 
> Actually is was more like "won't'.
> ...


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

I've been bitten by a handful of untrained dogs. Mostly fear biters in OB in homes. The owners pretty much always had something to say about how "protective" the dog was. I wouldn't count on these dogs to stay in the fight once the chips are down. MY old neighbor's white GSD had a bunch of live bites...it also pissed all over itself during thunderstorms, and ran for the hills if you walked towards it. 

I think of a protection dog as one that will actively engage a hostile threat then stay engaged when the threat fights back, and I've never stated otherwise. I could be wrong, but I don't think there are many untrained dogs that will continue to engage while they are getting their asses kicked. I also don't believe that there is any dog in the world that can take a motivated man of avg stature in a fight (trained or not).


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

If this upcoming "BITE" fest could be better defined I would be taking bets on this. That is if all the naysayers didn't run for the hills.

Don't forget I bet on cock fights when I lived in Costa Rica. This all out fun event is a knock down. Betting on a cock fight winner was a hell of a lot more difficult than this is gonna be.:grin:

Hey Don, who's running the beer and hot dog wagon concession?:grin:

You should be selling tickets.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> If this upcoming "BITE" fest could be better defined I would be taking bets on this. That is if all the naysayers didn't run for the hills.
> 
> Don't forget I bet on cock fights when I lived in Costa Rica. This all out fun event is a knock down. Betting on a cock fight winner was a hell of a lot more difficult than this is gonna be.:grin:
> 
> ...



Lee. When you say there are naysayers, I believe you. Who were they though? I came in on the tail end of this and I am curious about who they were. I couldn't find any but I didn't look through all the threads.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hey Dave - How are you doing?

I don't want to go through these 2 threads and start calling out names. By naysayers I mean people who don't think these dogs are gonna bite with no training.

I don't know how "pretty" it might be but I believe they are going to fight like hell to protect Don. I could be very wrong but I don't think so.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

BTW I also want to add that although I believe these untrained dogs will bite I am a believer in that expert trainers and training bring out the best in a dog.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> BTW I also want to add that although I believe these untrained dogs will bite I am a believer in that expert trainers and training bring out the best in a dog.





Lee H Sternberg said:


> BTW I also want to add that although I believe these untrained dogs will bite I am a believer in that expert trainers and training bring out the best in a dog.



We'll see on his dogs. #1 whether they'll bite, and #2 whether they are untrained. I don't think I have heard a straight thing from Don yet, ever. I could see him training, and saying they are untrained, as he is not a trainer but has trained. Just sounds like something he would do. We'll see. Proof is in the pudding.

He is writing a book on other dog people, so this could be a chapter for his book.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

stupid question, i can conceive an untrained dog *biting* when attacked/threatened by a person or its owner being threatened (i think that is accepted as fact - maybe) but when u say *fight* and refer to trained dogs do people involved in this thread mean specific skills like *transfers* etc? 

an untrained person can certainly punch but i wouldn't expect them to throw discplined combinations of punches and counter-punches - is there an analogy here with dogs fighting/biting a man.

would it be fair to compare a untrained person throwing wild (possibly effective punches) to a skilled experienced club fighter throwing precision combinations??

not trying to stir anything up just trying to understand the actual challenge.

thanks for any clarification


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> We'll see on his dogs. #1 whether they'll bite, and #2 whether they are untrained. I don't think I have heard a straight thing from Don yet, ever. I could see him training, and saying they are untrained, as he is not a trainer but has trained. Just sounds like something he would do. We'll see. Proof is in the pudding.
> 
> He is writing a book on other dog people, so this could be a chapter for his book.


You will Be able to spot any training pretty quick. I thought about that issue a bit.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> You will Be able to spot any training pretty quick. I thought about that issue a bit.



Ditto! That would be pretty obvious to a good training decoy.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto! That would be pretty obvious to a good training decoy.



The shame of it is the waste of money and time. And then there will be counter accusations and a smoke screen amidst a flurry of denial.

.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> The shame of it is the waste of money and time. And then there will be counter accusations and a smoke screen amidst a flurry of denial.
> 
> .



Hopefully all will remain positive for the testing and just give all views of how it went.
Good dog trainers here will know without all the unnecessary "stuff" after.:wink:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

this is now a world-wide event - the WDF admin/owner should at least pay for the flights with all the traffic it has generated.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don. I was in comummnication with Nicole, then that stopped and the next thing I saw was Dave posting about it...no biggie. I just want to see it ironed out and agreed upon and done...that is all...I was not on this board for a while, and it had absolutely nothing to do with anything regarding your dogs...LOL


> Actually is was more like "won't'.


I have said repeatedly that I have seen dogs that will protect/bite someone in a serious manner without training, and that I have owned some. I did say that I would never recommend for someone to count on it happening with an untrained dog. Dogs that are capable of this are not as common as people seem to think...You have stated to me many times that the breed is too serious to be trained effectively, that they want to kill...I have worked some pretty crappy airedales (more than a couple) and do have some experience with them...not your dogs of course...you all along have had this opinion that courage and tenacity on fighting game, somehow relates to fighting people as well, in some cases it does and in some cases it does not. The human factor is a large hurdle for many dogs to get over.



> Come on guys. What's going on? Now none of you suddenly never said anything. How did this challenge get this far if no one said anything. Joby you were the one that revived it. Before you said you would like to come out and show me. Show me what? That I only like to think the dogs will protect me because they won't.


I do not recall saying I would like to show you, but I am not denying it either, I would like to find out. You are the one who has said that they will, and recently that they will need to be choked off. Me and you never really agreed on any specifics, because it was hard to satisfy what would be realistic enough for you.



> Nicole graciouisly made it easy and Joby dissappeared from the board until Dave came forward....to do what? Prove that dogs won't protect unless they are trained.





> Now, suddenly, no one said that.
> 
> Guys, IF the dogs go after him, he will have his chance to fight them. Not before they bite....otherwise half the board will say he wasn't protecting. When Ariel comes in with her camera, The first thing I am going to do is walk her around to each yard so she can video how friendly the dogs are to dispell the comments about them being just viscious yard dogs. And just to be clear, by bite, I don't mean a quick nip at the heel. Will be back tomorrow afternoon. Have fun!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I sure wish I could get over there for all this but no one besides family can understand much of what the hell I'm trying to say. I'm taking a educated guess that I'm about 2 months away from having "understandable" speech.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I sure wish I could get over there for all this but no one besides family can understand much of what the hell I'm trying to say. I'm taking a educated guess that I'm about 2 months away from having "understandable" speech.



One of my daughter's is an interpreter for the deaf comunity. I swear she's just using fancy hand stuff to flip me the bird! :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> stupid question, i can conceive an untrained dog *biting* when attacked/threatened by a person or its owner being threatened (i think that is accepted as fact - maybe) but when u say *fight* and refer to trained dogs do people involved in this thread mean specific skills like *transfers* etc?
> 
> an untrained person can certainly punch but i wouldn't expect them to throw discplined combinations of punches and counter-punches - is there an analogy here with dogs fighting/biting a man.
> 
> ...


most untrained dogs that bite will transfer bites often, when pressure is applied they will pop off and rebite, or pop off and break...it is a rare untrained dog that will bite and hold under decent pressure.

It will be interesting to see.
I am glad that it has been stated that the dog will have to be choked off...because that is a tall order for an untrained dog that is being pressured.

I will say that I will be very suprised if that happens. I dont even think a dog has too hold under pressure, as long as it re-engages (rebites) when it pops off...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby said;
"most untrained dogs that bite will transfer bites often, when pressure is applied they will pop off and rebite, or pop off and break...it is a rare untrained dog that will bite and hold under decent pressure."


Holding grip is not uncommon for a lot of terriers. 
Dog vs man and dog vs critter/quarry has obvious differences for those that have seen/done both but it's still more common for a terrier to grip and hold (and shake a bunch). I wouldn't use that criteria alone for basing a final call.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

That is some of the stuff I was talking about when I said I didn't know how "pretty" the bite might be.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> One of my daughter's is an interpreter for the deaf comunity. I swear she's just using fancy hand stuff to flip me the bird! :grin:


VA is arming me with 3 very different communication devices. I have the first 2 right now. There are definitely learning curves to these MOFOs.#-o

BUT I'm grateful to have them.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Joby said;
> "most untrained dogs that bite will transfer bites often, when pressure is applied they will pop off and rebite, or pop off and break...it is a rare untrained dog that will bite and hold under decent pressure."
> 
> 
> ...


I think that would be fine. If the dog holds the grip under (legitimate) pressure, it's doing it's job. If that's just a side effect of being a terrier then that would prove that terriers make the best natural protection dogs. Then we would all realize we've been wasting our time with these breeds we've been using for the last 100+ years. 

I'm really not trying to be a prick. It just seems to me like airedales would be the premier PSD/PPD breed if this were the case.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Charles Guyer said:


> I think that would be fine. If the dog holds the grip under (legitimate) pressure, it's doing it's job. If that's just a side effect of being a terrier then that would prove that terriers make the best natural protection dogs. Then we would all realize we've been wasting our time with these breeds we've been using for the last 100+ years.
> 
> I'm really not trying to be a prick. It just seems to me like airedales would be the premier PSD/PPD breed if this were the case.


I think the main problem with terriers is they all prefer to be hole diggers.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

to declare this either way would "you" be happy with repeated possibly dirty biting to any part of the body with reasonable (not excessive) countering of the decoy while decoy is engaging Don in a "fight" or would the dog have to stand alone and aggresively attack the decoy.

if its *protecting* where on about and Don is no longer being threatened by decoy its (the dog) job is done.

to expect a police dog style fight on the decoy away from Don might be over extending the concept of protecting the handler for an untrained dog?? a whole industry is built on taking specifically bred (civil) dogs years of training steps to achive that - so should be excluded.

trying to bring your attention to what is a reasonable expectation for a test to make it educational for dog trainers and not get hung up on the peoples side of it.

this could potentially make us all (WDF members) look like a bunch of drunk red-necks - credibility factor guys


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Joby said;
> "most untrained dogs that bite will transfer bites often, when pressure is applied they will pop off and rebite, or pop off and break...it is a rare untrained dog that will bite and hold under decent pressure."
> 
> 
> ...


I am not using that as criteria. I am stating that most untrained dogs regardless of breed will not hold a grip under pressure from a man, if they even bite.

in my experience it is much more common for a terrier with no training that is bites a human who is pressuring him to NOT hold and shake.

I have worked more than a few airedales (7-8) and many many other terriers to base this opinion on...easily well over 100 if staffies and apbt are considered terriers...

one of the best (most violent) out of the box (untrained) dog, I have ever seen was a terrier, look her in the eye, stomp your foot or something else to get her attention that you were challenging her, and the dog came about 40 miles an hour in a fully commited reckless full mouth attack...never backed down in any way from any pressure, showed no hesitation or nerve issues.....that was a 40 lb apbt...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> that was a 40 lb apbt...


 
have i got the conversion factor wrong, my 22wo GSD is 32kg = 70+pounds????? WTF


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> I think that would be fine. If the dog holds the grip under (legitimate) pressure, it's doing it's job. If that's just a side effect of being a terrier then that would prove that terriers make the best natural protection dogs. Then we would all realize we've been wasting our time with these breeds we've been using for the last 100+ years.
> 
> I'm really not trying to be a prick. It just seems to me like airedales would be the premier PSD/PPD breed if this were the case.



I completely understand! My comment was just based on seeing my working terriers...work. 
I also recall my son having to literally pry our JRT off of one of his friend's leg because he grabbed on when said "friend" got carried away rough housing. :lol:
I want to stay neutral in this. I have interest because #1 It's about dog behavior and natural bite work. Some dogs have it (few) and some don't. 
#2 is my love of the terriers. I'd love to know there are a few good ones left...that is besides the nasty little basssids. :-o :lol:
However it goes I do hope it doesn't turn into a "I told ya so"....but I'm not going to hold my breath. :grin: 
The question will continue no matter how it turns out. :wink:


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> to declare this either way would "you" be happy with repeated possibly dirty biting to any part of the body with reasonable (not excessive) countering of the decoy while decoy is engaging Don in a "fight" or would the dog have to stand alone and aggresively attack the decoy.
> 
> if its *protecting* where on about and Don is no longer being threatened by decoy its (the dog) job is done.
> 
> ...


I would be happy if the dog were to bite the "bad guy" anywhere, endure a proverbial beating, and not quit fighting. Don can be on the other end of a leash or in another county for all I care. Doesn't matter what drive the dog is in. Just has to go through the motions. That would satisfy me.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> have i got the conversion factor wrong, my 22wo GSD is 32kg = 70+pounds????? WTF


Probably not. I had a 20 kg (44lb) ACD ball of muscle who took on a threatening person if they stared her in the eyes or made a threatening move. She wouldnt back down either. Not quite as full on as the terrier Joby describes but she would attack if I was under threat. She was muscly, blocky, strong and determined despite her size. She scared off a few people.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Charles Guyer said:


> Don can be on the other end of a leash or in another county for all I care..


 
Charles this is where i question if you are testing protection or something else - i think the initial challnge was protecting Don in a "real" fight. are you over extending the challenge???? just askin


note i use the word "you" in general terms not specifically you - Charles


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I completely understand! My comment was just based on seeing my working terriers...work.
> I also recall my son having to literally pry our JRT off of one of his friend's leg because he grabbed on when said "friend" got carried away rough housing. :lol:
> I want to stay neutral in this. I have interest because #1 It's about dog behavior and natural bite work. Some dogs have it (few) and some don't.
> #2 is my love of the terriers. I'd love to know there are a few good ones left...that is besides the nasty little basssids. :-o :lol:
> ...


I'm with you Bob. I just got rid of a Jagdterrier last year because I just couldn't handle her and the Mal. I'm very interested in the outcome of this test as well. If you can send something down a hole to fight a badger to the death, it would stand to reason that it could handle a few stick hits and a hollar or two, but I also know how much time and effort I've put into making a dog confident fighting a man.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> I'm with you Bob. I just got rid of a Jagdterrier last year because I just couldn't handle her and the Mal. I'm very interested in the outcome of this test as well. If you can send something down a hole to fight a badger to the death, it would stand to reason that it could handle a few stick hits and a hollar or two, but I also know how much time and effort I've put into making a dog confident fighting a man.


My absolute hardest, deadliest terrier in the ground was a Border who wouldn't bite a human to save his own life. :lol:


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Just for the record. I think that Airedales are cool, and Don deserves a lot of credit for the effort he put into the development of his line. I'm an avid hunter and dog person, and it bothers me to see all this infighting while we face so much opposition from those that hate us for the things that we devote our lives to.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> Just for the record. I think that Airedales are cool, and Don deserves a lot of credit for the effort he put into the development of his line. I'm an avid hunter and dog person, and it bothers me to see all this infighting while we face so much opposition from those that hate us for the things that we devote our lives to.



Amen to that!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> to declare this either way would "you" be happy with repeated possibly dirty biting to any part of the body with reasonable (not excessive) countering of the decoy while decoy is engaging Don in a "fight" or would the dog have to stand alone and aggresively attack the decoy.
> 
> if its *protecting* where on about and Don is no longer being threatened by decoy its (the dog) job is done.
> 
> ...


I am not expecting the dogs to bite and hold, that is what Don expects.. 

I would expect an untrained dog to be unpredictable, maybe not take what is offered, but bite somewhere else if not restrained and targeted, and might jump around some...might bite a leg, the body, whatever...might pop off and move around to the backside...

I would expect the dog to not bite once and then pop off and start jumping around barking...if it is to be considered a natural protector...

maybe tomorrow I will read this whole thread and see what they agreed upon so far...

as far as the ******* thing...eh...whatever...

I would like to see a TEST...to determine the extent of the natural abilities, not a testing situation that might be done when one is evaluating a dog for a training program, by testing instincts and drives...it has already been stated by the dogs owner that training is not necessary, and that the dog will have to be choked off the tester...I would like to see the dogs tested as if they are finished dogs that are trained...not in regards to bite quality itself, but in regards to pressure applied to the dogs...onleash or offleash, whatever they agree upon...on the property, or off, whatever they agree upon, I would just like to see the dogs tested in a serious fashion...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

gee Joby i thought that was a very coherent post, thanks.

Don could do for bite sports what the UFC did to traditional martial arts - those guys for years perpetuated the myth that they are so dangerous they could never compete in a comp. 

UFC demonstrated they have been full of sh!t for hundereds of years, the spell was finally broken and the veil lifted.

i do personally think Don could have quietly just paid a decoy to come test his dogs, but its now gone all major so its more about people than dogs IMO.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> gee Joby i thought that was a very coherent post, thanks.
> 
> Don could do for bite sports what the UFC did to traditional martial arts - those guys for years perpetuated the myth that they are so dangerous they could never compete in a comp.
> 
> ...


I agree...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby i should qaulify - the UFC quote refers to the original less controlled versions ie knees to the side of a downed opponnents head from a dominant position etc not the current version which is more like K-1/muay thai with extra bits. 

people forget the original version of boxing was similar in rules to the current UFC rules. the rules got changed amongst other things becuase the general public are too uneducated to appreciatte the ground game and would rather pay to see a predominately stand up striking game.

JMO,

is this off topic?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Charles Guyer said:


> Just for the record. I think that Airedales are cool, and Don deserves a lot of credit for the effort he put into the development of his line. I'm an avid hunter and dog person, and it bothers me to see all this infighting while we face so much opposition from those that hate us for the things that we devote our lives to.




I think dogs are cool in general. I can't find a whole lot on the net about "his line" other than on his board and his posts here. I have never seen one of his dogs, other than pictures he has supplied. No video. I don't take that to mean anything other than I haven't seen it yet, but if you can clarify that, it would be great.


What do you know personally or through a verifiable source about his dogs to make the statement about what he has done for the development of his line?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Good morning Dave. If that's truly the case, I do find that a bit peculiar to be honest with you. I've got about a dozen videos out there at least of things I've done with my pup who was bred by Kevin Walsh (WDF member). I'm nobody that anyone cares to know about but if someone wanted to take a look at what type of dog he sent me, there's plenty to see of the pup in a working/training capacity on YouTube (anyone is welcome to check out my page):

http://www.youtube.com/user/cannavo72

I didn't go looking for info on Don's dogs but if there truly isn't anything to be found on line, my first question would be why. Where are these working dogs going that no one puts up any information about what they might have off his line out there to share with others?


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think dogs are cool in general. I can't find a whole lot on the net about "his line" other than on his board and his posts here. I have never seen one of his dogs, other than pictures he has supplied. No video. I don't take that to mean anything other than I haven't seen it yet, but if you can clarify that, it would be great.
> 
> 
> What do you know personally or through a verifiable source about his dogs to make the statement about what he has done for the development of his line?


I don't know anything about his dogs. Figure they go to hunting homes mostly. I said he deserves credit. That doesn't necessarily mean accolades.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Charles Guyer*  
_Just for the record. I think that Airedales are cool, and Don deserves a lot of credit for the effort he put into the development of his line. I'm an avid hunter and dog person, and it bothers me to see all this infighting while we face so much opposition from those that hate us for the things that we devote our lives to._


Bob Scott said "Amen to that!"

Bob, Have you seen him or his dogs?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I am not expecting the dogs to bite and hold, that is what Don expects..
> 
> I would expect an untrained dog to be unpredictable, maybe not take what is offered, but bite somewhere else if not restrained and targeted, and might jump around some...might bite a leg, the body, whatever...might pop off and move around to the backside...
> 
> ...


 
Agreed, I think the dogs will bite, but more out of a fear aggression, but it will be interesting to find out


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Charles Guyer*
> _Just for the record. I think that Airedales are cool, and Don deserves a lot of credit for the effort he put into the development of his line. I'm an avid hunter and dog person, and it bothers me to see all this infighting while we face so much opposition from those that hate us for the things that we devote our lives to._
> 
> ...


Pretty sure Bob was saying amen to the second sentence in the paragraph. I see what you're getting at and I'd rather not be made out to be anyone's minion. I have never seen Don's dogs, I don't know anything about Don's dogs other than what he has posted, nor have I dug for dirt on Don or anyone else.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Agreed, I think the dogs will bite, but more out of a fear aggression, but it will be interesting to find out


My opinion now is that he is training them or Don doesn't exist at all, other than on the internet. A flight and a drive will prove that all one way or the other. Think about it, Jody, you've met me, we've met several other people on here.....Who's met Don, or any of the hundreds of puppies he has sold. Two litters on the ground right now, say 5 apiece, that's ten dogs times twice a year which is 20 times 20 years of breeding working airedales, which is 400 I would guess at a low number. Seems like there would be someone who has seen one of his dogs.

Maybe someone will post about meeting him or his dogs today.

If he is above board though, and they are fear aggressive, I will put enough heat on them that they will be on the far side of the yard. I can do that without touching them. If they are fearful and commit enough to bite when they have room to run (if they even exist) then based on the test if they put teeth on me, they have succeeded. You and I both know this proves nothing, other than a dog will nip in the yard, but it will validate his feelings about his dogs, so good for him (if he exists).

I am still not clear on the rules, but also don't care as per my first sentence on this post. I hope Don is a stand up guy, but nothing would lead me to believe that from what I have seen thus far.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Charles Guyer said:


> Pretty sure Bob was saying amen to the second sentence in the paragraph. I see what you're getting at and I'd rather not be made out to be anyone's minion. I have never seen Don's dogs, I don't know anything about Don's dogs other than what he has posted, nor have I dug for dirt on Don or anyone else.



I sent you a PM. As I said in there, I think I met you before and thought you had seen his dogs. Not trying to make you out as a minion, as I really don't know you. Just trying to verify now that Don has dogs, and see if anyone has seen them or him as I don't want to waste Nicole's money for a flight.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

WOW! Is Don real and does he really have dogs? Nothing showing up on him via internet search?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> WOW! Is Don real and does he really have dogs? Nothing showing up on him via internet search?



Doug. Lots shows up and he owns his own airedale forum. Internet search means nothing though. Not saying this is the case here, but he could be in his mom's basement posting since 2003 to different forums. I am sure it will get cleared up, but the guy isn't even willing to say the name of the town he lives next to. Just said NF. I had to get it off his website.

I am not the greatest at anything. I am okay at dog training and I enjoy it. I am real though. I'll train dogs today. I can take video of me. Maybe I should demand he get a local paper with a date, take a picture that shows the date. he could photo shop that though. Again. a flight and a drive. I just don't know what I'd do if there is a guy sitting in his moms basement laughing when I show up and there are no airedales or don.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I completely understand! My comment was just based on seeing my working terriers...work.
> I also recall my son having to literally pry our JRT off of one of his friend's leg because he grabbed on when said "friend" got carried away rough housing. :lol:
> I want to stay neutral in this. I have interest because #1 It's about dog behavior and natural bite work. Some dogs have it (few) and some don't.
> #2 is my love of the terriers. I'd love to know there are a few good ones left...that is besides the nasty little basssids. :-o :lol:
> ...


Don't you believe that most peoples goal in this is "I told you so" bragging rights?:-D

I still want to know who is running the beer and hot dog concession and if the grandstands are set up yet out at Don's place?\\/

I'm not much worried about whether Don really exists or not.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

A member of this forum named Jennifer Marshall has a dog from Don. Check out her photo gallery.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> A member of this forum named Jennifer Marshall has a dog from Don. Check out her photo gallery.


She also posted about him quite frequently. I remember her and the dog well.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think dogs are cool in general. I can't find a whole lot on the net about "his line" other than on his board and his posts here. I have never seen one of his dogs, other than pictures he has supplied. No video. I don't take that to mean anything other than I haven't seen it yet, but if you can clarify that, it would be great.
> 
> 
> What do you know personally or through a verifiable source about his dogs to make the statement about what he has done for the development of his line?


 You tried this ploy on my board and it didn't work, now you are trying it here. LMAO. Normally people would be smart enough to reaize that they know squat about you except for what you seem to think of yourself. *Quit trying to build your confidence up and put up a date for when you are coming.*

Here Dave. maybe this will help you cur quietly so you can quit making a fool of youself. Damned, I am even starting to feel sorry for your patheic self....but I will get over it.



















Today you can find High Country dogs in
1) "The Working Airedale" by Bryan Cummins(Canada)
Page 187 in the chapter titled "Outstanding Working Airedales"

2) "Airedales, The Oorang Story" by Bryan Cummins (Canada)
Pages 47-52 

3) "The Howell Book Of Dogs, The difinitive Reference to 300 Breeds and Varieties by Liz Palika (USA)
Pages 116-117. The dog pictured is a Cert. service dog and is allowed on planes and everywhere else.

4) "The Airedale Terrier" by Lars Gren & Helena Ardholm (Sweden)
Page 14-15, 83, 104!/2 page lead in picture for the hunting chapter),105, 122-123(the two page center photo of the book),124 (1/2 page photo for the Chapter on Therapy dogs),125(2 pictures,126 (3 pictures), 127 2 pictures, 128 (1/2 page lead in to a chapter on dogs working in schools with handicapped and underpriviledged kids, 129 (2pictures)

Some of the other HC dogs.

High Country Curtis, pictured at 8 mo doing protection and ended up as a service dog for the blind.

The dogs have every obedience title up through the Ud's The fiirst UD was put on years ago by the president of the Calif. Airedale Terrier Assocciation which is the Calif chapter of the Nat' breed Club, the ATCA.

So far Dave, your only a legend in your own mind. *Put up a date big talker*


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> The shame of it is the waste of money and time. And then there will be counter accusations and a smoke screen amidst a flurry of denial.
> 
> .


And they will all come from you Dave. Your already trying to prime the wheels saying your not convinced they are not trained. The only training concerning people they have had is I will know the shit out of them if they show people aggression....of course everyone on the airedale board told you that. Funny youi didn't mention that, but, of course that won't look good if they still protect will it. I don't tolerate people aggression in my dogs and it is well known. There is at least a dozen posts on this board even about the dogs taking swipes at me or grabbing me. I beat the crap out of them for it. Be amazing if they ignored that training won't it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You tried this ploy on my board and it didn't work, now you are trying it here. LMAO. Normally people would be smart enough to reaize that they know squat about you except for what you seem to think of yourself. *Quit trying to build your confidence up and put up a date for when you are coming.*
> 
> Here Dave. maybe this will help you cur quietly so you can quit making a fool of youself. Damned, I am even starting to feel sorry for your patheic self....but I will get over it.
> 
> ...



Don people meeting me in person doesn't make me a legend. It makes me real. Do you have a third party that has met you, in over 20 years of breeding? Anyone here bought a pup from you? 

You haven't been too forthcoming with information, I don't want to waste Nicole's money. May not want to call me names, unless you are trying to get banned so you don't have to go through with this.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> She also posted about him quite frequently. I remember her and the dog well.


I recall the problems she experienced trying to train him ob.... There was a lot conversation in this thread about him http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/how-many-12188/ hope I haven't been impolite in posting it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> The shame of it is the waste of money and time. And then there will be counter accusations and a smoke screen amidst a flurry of denial.
> 
> .


It is a waste of money and time for you now isn't it. First you woujld have to fly into Las Vegas, because it would be cheaper, and drive 9 hours one way. Anyone with a lick of sense knows you would have to look at a map to see where North Fork is and you conveniently didn't notice Sacramento, or San Jose within a couple of hours drive. The time and money were alright when you thought you could get a "free" pup from me and get it home on Nicoles dime. I can well see why it has become a waste of time and money for you because you lost out on the pup and getting it shipped for free, and your Las Vegas vacation on Nicole. *Just put up a date of when your comeing son, I am waiting for you, we are all waiting on you* Seems funny one minute you can take a week and a half road trip and now you can't figure out 2 days to do this. Mighty funny.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don people meeting me in person doesn't make me a legend. It makes me real. Do you have a third party that has met you, in over 20 years of breeding? Anyone here bought a pup from you?
> 
> You haven't been too forthcoming with information, I don't want to waste Nicole's money. May not want to call me names, unless you are trying to get banned so you don't have to go through with this.


I haven't called you any names Dave, I have been very carefull not to because I want to meet you. My dogs want to meet you. Don't you wish I would get banned. Suggestion though, if you call me names they may ban you and you can get out of this. So, what have you done that makes you a great trainer "in your mind" I still don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Best thing for you to do Dave is quit all the talk and *put up a date if your going to.*


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I have a wee suggestion which may possibly help alleviate a little of the chest thumping....

How about dates, times, venue, rules etc. are made via a third party...ie. Nicole ?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I recall the problems she experienced trying to train him ob.... There was a lot conversation in this thread about him http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/how-many-12188/ hope I haven't been impolite in posting it.


Thanks for posting that Maggie. I enjoyed that thread and a number of others that followed his progress along the way. I'm still saddened by her premature loss of him.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I just want to know if there are ZOMBIES there before I come!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I have a wee suggestion which may possibly help alleviate a little of the chest thumping....
> 
> How about dates, times, venue, rules etc. are made via a third party...ie. Nicole ?


Good idea.

I'll post dates as soon as Ariel and I hammer them out. Somebody else get the rules hammered out. They are still up in the air.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I recall the problems she experienced trying to train him ob.... There was a lot conversation in this thread about him http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/how-many-12188/ hope I haven't been impolite in posting it.


 
If memory serves me this dog is deceased


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don people meeting me in person doesn't make me a legend. It makes me real. Do you have a third party that has met you, in over 20 years of breeding? Anyone here bought a pup from you?
> 
> You haven't been too forthcoming with information, I don't want to waste Nicole's money. May not want to call me names, unless you are trying to get banned so you don't have to go through with this.


No Dave, no one has bought a pup and I haven't tried to sell anyone a pup because they are unproven at this point. As you well know, I have given a pup, out of my own lines, and will give several trainers a free pup to prove when Griff has pups. Of course, after almost giving you one, I am going to ask for proof they are real trainers. Griff was bred for protection and I will still give some away. Of couse you know that you are blowing smoke because so many will buy it. *Dates, Dave, Just put up the dates. I left almost 2 full months open to make it easy for you....and still can't get dates*

OK I am leaving again until tomorrow when I will check in to see if we have dates.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> If memory serves me this dog is deceased


Yes, poisoned I think.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I have a wee suggestion which may possibly help alleviate a little of the chest thumping....
> 
> How about dates, times, venue, rules etc. are made via a third party...ie. Nicole ?


If you think there is "chest thumping" before BF (BITE FEST) just imagine what's going to take place after BF.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I just want to know if there are ZOMBIES there before I come!


 

hahaha, see we can all still have a good time through this.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hahaha, see we can all still have a good time through this.


Boozing just isn't quite as enjoyable when you have to dodge zombies or axe murderers.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i dunno, u ever tried dodging them without booze, don't condone the use of drugs but pot might be better? just askin.

dam zombies don't mean to be racist but they need to get a life.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> How about dates, times, venue, rules etc. are made via a third party...ie. Nicole ?


That's a good idea Maggie. I think until then, I'll ask the Mods to close this thread. We can have it reopened when we have a date.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's a good idea Maggie. I think until then, *I'll ask the Mods to close this thread. We can have it reopened when we have a date*.


 
haven't heard anyone complaining yet so why would you want it closed - was it the zombie talk??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

By request I'm temporarily closing this post.
We've all given our thought on it so until things happen there is no point in rehashing all the same old same old. 
It will be reopened when further "new" info or results have been acquired.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> It will be reopened when further "new" info or results have been acquired.





Dave Colborn said:


> We have a date. 17 Sept 2011 0930-1030. Need an answer from Don to get tickets.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks Connie.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Just wanted to point out ...it wasn't Dave's fault that a date hadn't been set until today, it was mine. I was out of town for a seminar and expected to be able to work out my schedule once I got back.

I was also the one who suggested a road trip would be fun ...until I started looking at the logistics of that realistically. Once I spoke to Dave, we realized we both have other priorities that take precedence over testing Don's Airedales and it was probably best to just take the cheapest, shortest route and get this thing done. 

Flying into Vegas was cheaper and Dave had a friend we could stay with, so that is why that was an option. Again, once we hashed out all the details, turns out it will be cheaper (gas, rental car, hotel rooms, etc.) to fly into somewhere closer and do it that way (although flights to Vegas were up to $100 cheaper than Fresno - I honestly didn't realize there was an airport in San Jose - I've only been to CA a couple times). This has never been about getting some kind of free vacation. It's something that seems interesting and that Dave and then I agreed to be a part of.

Anyway, hopefully, that date will work for everyone. I've been racking my brain and can't remember anything I have to do that weekend, so I figured that should work.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If you guys find a flight with a layover in St. Louis, I would still be glad to take you all for a bite to eat or something. Good luck booking travel...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don.

Will the 16th work for you? Cheaper. Same time in the AM.
disregard. got it


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don.
> 
> Will the 16th work for you? Cheaper. Same time in the AM.
> disregard. got it


Am I supposed to disregard this post or what? GF already put in a request for a nurse to watch her mom on the 17th.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave, take Hwy 99 south to Madera. Take the Cleveland exit take Cleveland ave east to Hwy 145/Yosemite ave. Turn left on Hwy 145 and continue east to Hwy 41. Turn left on Hwy 41 and go north to Rd. 200/O'Neil's Rd. Stay on Rd 200 until you see a large white cross in front of Hillside Baptist Church. When you see the cross, it is about 200yds to Rocky Rd. Make a left on Rocky Rd and go up about 1/4 mile until you come to a hrd left turen. DO NOT MAKE THE LEFT TURN! That is my gate right in front of you. Has a faded yellow No Trespassing/ Keep Out sign on each side of the gate. That is where I will meet you. No one has ever found it using map quest.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, take Hwy 99 south to Madera. Take the Cleveland exit take Cleveland ave east to Hwy 145/Yosemite ave. Turn left on Hwy 145 and continue east to Hwy 41. Turn left on Hwy 41 and go north to Rd. 200/O'Neil's Rd. Stay on Rd 200 until you see a large white cross in front of Hillside Baptist Church. When you see the cross, it is about 200yds to Rocky Rd. Make a left on Rocky Rd and go up about 1/4 mile until you come to a hrd left turen. DO NOT MAKE THE LEFT TURN! That is my gate right in front of you. Has a faded yellow No Trespassing/ Keep Out sign on each side of the gate. That is where I will meet you. No one has ever found it using map quest.



Roger that. I'll be there on the 17th. I'll give you a call when I am an hour out or so.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Personally my money is on Don's dogs, I haven't been an internet dog man for long and didn't realize what a mystical concept it is to have dogs like Don produces, my type dogs are very similar in most characteristics as Don has described his dogs just didn't realize up till a couple years ago how rare it was specifically on the natural protective side.

I have visualized similar testing and feel modifying Lou's Stake Out Test is a good base to work from, with the added element of the handler and physical contact from agitator to handler. Using the original test as a control to see any change in behavior indicating Protectiveness when the handler is present and assaulted, with no direct threat made to the dog should indicate the true Protective nature IMO.

Is any type of liability waiver been mentioned if someone is hurt, I hope on the the 18th members don't wake up to a thread titled "Dave Colburn Memorial to be held at...."
Good luck again and would definitely be interested in footage of event mainly to see the dogs in action.

Don I didn't realize the males were aggressive towards each other as you mentioned, I thought they go out together on hunts and work together or is it just when they are in close quarters and kenneled together. How would they be with other breeds, or for instance if someone had some AB's and wanted to go hunting with you and your dogs. I know of someone that says as a rule if he goes out hunting with his friends and their dogs that if any dog shows any aggression towards another's dog they have the right to shoot the others dog, they tolerate no dog aggression. Even in pit bulls it's present in varying degrees, some could care less others only if challanged and some purelly aggressive.
Is it something you try to breed away from or is it simply part of the overall package?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Hi Mike. The males have to be kept in separate yards with a four foot safty zone between the yards. Field fence in the middle with two strands of electric wire two feet from the fence on each side. I hunt them together because they learn the real fight is with the hogs. I start with one locating a good track. When he leaves, I release a second, then walk any pups in on a leash. The real rodeo is when we get back to the truck but I always have two hot shots there to get them apart and loaded. 

A guy brought two airedales down for a hunt once. One he bred and one 2 year old male he got from me. The one he bred was constantly licking my dogs in the mouth. I had Magnum, Hunter, and Geronimo with me but only had one out at a time. Spent the whole day prying the dog he got from me and my dogs apart. Hunter got away from me that day whle Magnum was out. Hunter jumped Magnum and it took a bit of work to pry Magnum off his face because Magnum was younger and faster.LOL

My dogs won't bother with lesser dogs like the one he bred, but, they go out of their way to single out any true dominate dog around. Take them to a public dog place and they will immediatly single out the worst dog there and just stand in front of them without showing any aggression. The just stand calmly waiting for the other dog to take water or fight. If the other dog submits, they are cool, if the dog choses to fight, that is cool also. Only dogs that have ever chose to fight were bulldogs. All other breeds back down. The real problem comes when my dogs are younger at 6 or 7 months. Other adult dogs sense they are younger and give it their best shot. At 6 and 7 months, the dogs don't have the control my older dogs do. Let's just say it was an extremely bad choice for the adult dog.

I mentioned that the one thing I didn't want to lose was the extreme social dominance in my dogs when I acquired the east German pup. You may remember that. I looked for a suitable dog for several years to bring in but wouldn't touch what people are breeding here today. You and I jknow that dogs like this have extreme confidence. They don't have to start fights because it isn't about fighting and aggression, it is all about dominating...... You are one of a few people(possibly the only one) here that understands this. Everyone else would think it is aggression. 

Jennifer Marshal. had one of my dogs if you remember. Jennifer also had a 15 or 16 mo old bull dog. I think the airedale, Jager, was about 4 mo old when the bulldog got two 1' plugs of hair and hide removed from between his shoulder blades by Jager. She wrote about it. That is the lack of control I see in the younger dogs where the adults can control without it ever resulting in a fight.

Titan broke a littermates leg when he was 6 weeks old. I am sure you have seen your pups fight. They hammer each other without mercy. I find them out there sometimes so tired they can't even stand up....they are just laying there....but they still have to have their mouth pried open to get them apart.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Don I forgot to mention, I thought I was the only KooK that uses the term Offensive when referring to a dogs behavior. Defensive/Offensive thought they go well together. Some dogs are called defensive nerve bags well what about the opposite end of that spectrum, a dog that is straight forward, in your face, not aggressive but making their presence undeniable, basically puts you in check and says "Ok your move" and what happens next depends on if you made the right move or not, if your cool their cool, you make the wrong move better hope it's quick enough. Some dogs meet offence with defense while others meet offense with more offense it's like your coming in 3rd gear well I'm coming back in 4th, oh you got 4th well try my 5th. Depending on the testing you may never see what the top gear actually looks like in some dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike, I have never made any bones about the dogs going more into a guard once they have a situation under control where people are concerned. Which is one reason they have never bit anyone. They kniw when they have the upper hand and take up a position right in front of the person staring them in the eye. Just as you said. The next move is up to the person. This is the reason I am going to keep yelling. I have to make the dog feel there is still a threat. Of course, in real life, this would be totally unnecessary because the dog already has control. Wearing a suit is a different thing all together. Actually these dales and good bulldogs are much the same. Both are known as clowns because thy have the confidence to be clowns with people because they are not intimidated like the dogs that are man sharp(mostly fear biters maintainng their safety zone). Neither of the two breeds are game players which make it tricky to do sports with them. This is going to be the trick.....to convince the dog it is a real threat.


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

This type of behaviour displayed by Don and Mikes dogs is similar to the behavior i have seen in working Black Russians which have the Airedale in its make up as far as i know


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, I have never made any bones about the dogs going more into a guard once they have a situation under control where people are concerned. Which is one reason they have never bit anyone. They kniw when they have the upper hand and take up a position right in front of the person staring them in the eye. Just as you said. The next move is up to the person. This is the reason I am going to keep yelling. I have to make the dog feel there is still a threat. Of course, in real life, this would be totally unnecessary because the dog already has control. Wearing a suit is a different thing all together. Actually these dales and good bulldogs are much the same. Both are known as clowns because thy have the confidence to be clowns with people because they are not intimidated like the dogs that are man sharp(mostly fear biters maintainng their safety zone). Neither of the two breeds are game players which make it tricky to do sports with them. This is going to be the trick.....to convince the dog it is a real threat.


Mike, just to clarify. Example: If a dog is running away when I am charging them, they have perceived a threat, and choose not to hang around to subdue the threat. Fight or flight is their choice, and in this example, flight kicked in. Do you agree?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> Don I forgot to mention, I thought I was the only KooK that uses the term Offensive when referring to a dogs behavior. Defensive/Offensive thought they go well together. Some dogs are called defensive nerve bags well what about the opposite end of that spectrum, a dog that is straight forward, in your face, not aggressive but making their presence undeniable, basically puts you in check and says "Ok your move" and what happens next depends on if you made the right move or not, if your cool their cool, you make the wrong move better hope it's quick enough. Some dogs meet offence with defense while others meet offense with more offense it's like your coming in 3rd gear well I'm coming back in 4th, oh you got 4th well try my 5th. Depending on the testing you may never see what the top gear actually looks like in some dogs.


Mike, you gave me an idea that could prove to be interesting. If Titan takes the fight to Dave, it would be a fascinating test if Dave quit fighting and I quit yelling to see if Titan would go into a natural guard even after being triggered.

Tommy, I think the BRT's do have airedale in them.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, you gave me an idea that could prove to be interesting. If Titan takes the fight to Dave, it would be a fascinating test if Dave quit fighting and I quit yelling to see if Titan would go into a natural guard even after being triggered.
> 
> Tommy, I think the BRT's do have airedale in them.


If? Shouldn't it be when? You said you were sure he'd bite.

It would be fascinating if you would let me teach him to bite after he doesn't engage. That would be fascinating. You would learn a lot. A lot about dogs behavior in general. Defense and Prey. Why tug toys can be your friend. You can use it all to bring them to bite convincingly.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> If? Shouldn't it be when? You said you were sure he'd bite.
> 
> It would be fascinating if you would let me teach him to bite after he doesn't engage. That would be fascinating. You would learn a lot. A lot about dogs behavior in general. Defense and Prey. Why tug toys can be your friend. You can use it all to bring them to bite convincingly.


I agree one of us is going to learn a lot. The date is set, so let's just see how it goes. You like to think you can predict how a dog you have never seen is going to act. You will get bit. I have no doubt Next week we will see who learns what. You don't have to posture any more. You still haven't learned even that.... real dogs don't posture.....like your doing son.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is something to think about that is relevant to this topic. This biting to protect deal came about long ago with Joby. Everyone here has heard how untrained dogs won't bite to protect. They have to be trained to protect. Think about it. I personally don't think you can train a dog to protect that isn't "naturally protective". Any dog can be taught to bite in a given scenario or on command if they have the propensity to bite. Yes, you end up with a dog that will bite....but, for what reason. It is widely accepted that you can't teach a dog to have certain innate behaviors that he just does not possess. The desire to protect is an innate proccess that can't be trained. They have it or they don't.


i got bite by a HGH trained bordercallie once it wasn't fun :sad: it wasn't trained in Protection or biting


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

kenneth roth said:


> i got bite by a HGH trained bordercallie once it wasn't fun :sad: it wasn't trained in Protection or biting


But were you nervous in the situation and just nipped during this bite or were you aggressively trying to intimidate the dog / scare it off and it actually bit and held on?


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Dave Martin said:


> But were you nervous in the situation and just nipped during this bite or were you aggressively trying to intimidate the dog / scare it off and it actually bit and held on?


it bite my leg as i rode my bike passed it


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree one of us is going to learn a lot. You will get bit.



Don.

Getting you to make straight statements is like pulling teeth. I just want you to say what you mean and not have any wiggle room when your dogs run. You say they'll bite, so stick with that.

POST RULES and a WAIVER.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don.
> 
> Getting you to make straight statements is like pulling teeth. I just want you to say what you mean and not have any wiggle room when your dogs run. You say they'll bite, so stick with that.
> 
> POST RULES and a WAIVER.


hmm finaly you got some brains and wanting rules and the waiver.. 


p.s: i got bit by an wernerieinier etc on my lower hamstring above the calf muscle it hanged on for a full mintue it didnt have any training


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

kenneth roth said:


> hmm finaly you got some brains and wanting rules and the waiver..
> 
> 
> p.s: i got bit by an wernerieinier etc on my lower hamstring above the calf muscle it hanged on for a full mintue it didnt have any training


Very curious what this same dog would have done had you been charging at him with potential weapons in your hands, as in an attack situation.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave, We wouldn't be having this if I didn't think they would bite. Like I said, quit your nervous posturing and stick to the matter at hand. If you were so sure of yourself, you wouldn't be wearing a full bite suit. You would just wear that caarhart you mentioned in your poem. Let's just leave it at that, because I would not let you do it without a suit because you will get bit. So quit playing to your audience and go back and read what was said about how oit will be done.....is thre something you don't understand about the encounter with Titan???? Seemed pretty straight forward. The car jacking scene the dog and I will be in the car. I will have him restrained on a flat leas. You approach from behind the truck to the passenger window in a very aggressive posture....and reach in. I know your nervous and it shows, but, is there anything you are having trouble understanding. You have a problem with straight talk obviously. 

Now, if you can just forget about what is going to happen to you for a second and get down to the meet, would you be willing to stop fighting, if I stop yelling, and see if the dog goes into a guard. Provided of course I am not choking him off your hands or face. Bring adequate protection Dave. Now, am I still not being clear enough for you in what I expect the dogs will do....or are you going to play that record again. Just relax son, what ever happens will happen. They are just untrained dogs that won't bite to protect.

As far as the waiver, I will put it up because it is my best interest, not yours, so just let me worry about it. It will be faster than you got a date up there I assure you. I got other things to do right now. My pump is out. They checked it this morning, they will be pulling it tomorrow. I have no water and had to haul water for the dogs earlier. It will be $2000 to $4500, but hey, it has been in there about 20 years. 

Next week I am getting the septic tank pump so it will be empty when you get here ....I am pretty sure you could fill it in one setting if you get my drift. 

I did see your "humble" post. I had already put one up about not being an asshole. Really depends on how much more posturing it takes to relax you. Like I said they are dogs. We both think we know what will happen, yadda, yadda, yadda. Let's just concentrate on the meet. Like I said.....what ever is going to happen is going to happen.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

ah ha! their u go Don put the body suite on and see what ya dogs do to you better then having all this crap talk


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hey Dave - Catchers mask??:-D


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

or one of those things metal facial masks the Knights of the Roundtable used to wear.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> ah ha! their u go Don put the body suite on and see what ya dogs do to you better then having all this crap talk


Hang on for a bit, Kenneth. We still haven't measured dick sizes yet.\\/


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> ah ha! their u go Don put the body suite on and see what ya dogs do to you better then having all this crap talk


Didn't you say you were in Bakersfield? If so, you just gotta come to this shindig. Starts at, maybe 9:30 on the 17th. If that is too early, come friday. I got a spare room. Same goes for any others that can make it. We can set out cold cuts Yadda, yadda, yadda. Then some of you, besides Jennifer of course, can meet me so I can be a real person too.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

At this point who cares, this whole thing is pointless and what is it Lee? Oh yeah, simply a cock fight.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

kenneth roth said:


> hmm finaly you got some brains and wanting rules and the waiver..
> 
> 
> p.s: i got bit by an wernerieinier etc on my lower hamstring above the calf muscle it hanged on for a full mintue it didnt have any training



Kenneth. I have been asking for rules for a while. Don said he would post a waiver. never happened. 

You're the one that got bit by a weim, and you are saying I need brains? I make a point of staying away from dogs that bite...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> At this point who cares, this whole thing is pointless and what is it Lee? Oh yeah, simply a cock fight.


Jees, Joby, it isn't that bad.

I do think this has the prefect storyline for a HORROR MOVIE. Place in the back woods, wolf dogs howling, I'm sure Don owns a chain saw(\\/). 

We just need some thunder and lightening.:razz:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, We wouldn't be having this if I didn't think they would bite. Like I said, quit your nervous posturing and stick to the matter at hand. If you were so sure of yourself, you wouldn't be wearing a full bite suit. You would just wear that caarhart you mentioned in your poem. Let's just leave it at that, because I would not let you do it without a suit because you will get bit. So quit playing to your audience and go back and read what was said about how oit will be done.....is thre something you don't understand about the encounter with Titan???? Seemed pretty straight forward. The car jacking scene the dog and I will be in the car. I will have him restrained on a flat leas. You approach from behind the truck to the passenger window in a very aggressive posture....and reach in. I know your nervous and it shows, but, is there anything you are having trouble understanding. You have a problem with straight talk obviously.
> 
> Now, if you can just forget about what is going to happen to you for a second and get down to the meet, would you be willing to stop fighting, if I stop yelling, and see if the dog goes into a guard. Provided of course I am not choking him off your hands or face. Bring adequate protection Dave. Now, am I still not being clear enough for you in what I expect the dogs will do....or are you going to play that record again. Just relax son, what ever happens will happen. They are just untrained dogs that won't bite to protect.
> 
> ...


No posturing Don. You just need to spell stuff out. You are barking quite a little bit (barking is a fear based behavior, FYI) in your post above. You just don't see it because you are saying it. 

I don't half-ass anything, if that's what you mean about me filling up your 55 gallon drum of a septic tank. But 55 gallons of shit is a bit much for even me. You must shit outdoors or like a rabit to not fill that thing up in 20 years!!!

But Great. You read some of what's going on here a little different than I do, but sure, since you're willing to be somewhat civil, I will too. If your dogs by the grace of god bite, I will fight a bit, stand still and see if they go into a guard. I'll do that in a safe manner, protecting my hands and face.


On the tracking deal, let ariel pick a good one and that might be some fun too. No jab at you here, to see how someone else trains man trailing. We fly out the next day early so we should have time. 


You are a funny guy. The video will show that part of you, I am sure. Can't wait.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

> If you were so sure of yourself, you wouldn't be wearing a full bite suit. You would just wear that caarhart you mentioned in your poem.



Don.

I have been divorced twice. I was pretty sure prior to those too. Bite suit top is a precaution. I still may wear carhart bottoms.

Haven't you heard of the six Ps. Prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance. Do I think I'll need the VA hospital? No. Do I want to map quest that bitch when I slip and split my skull chasing your dogs or get bit. No.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

a bitesuit to an untrained dog is nothing more than clothing...only a fool would test unfamiliar dogs without proper protection...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave said


> On the tracking deal, let ariel pick a good one and that might be some fun too. No jab at you here, to see how someone else trains man trailing. We fly out the next day early so we should have time.


Dave you might want to explain this last statement. Like...what tracking deal... and where are you planning to spend the night before you fly out?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> At this point who cares, this whole thing is pointless and what is it Lee? Oh yeah, simply a cock fight.


yeah way too much posturing for me. 

i had similar question with my "off-breed", just rang the best decoy around paid him some cash and had a session - whole thing from go to woe was over in one afternnon, why all the endless drama queen stuff.

its like these 2 boys have a medical condition re attention seeking .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> a bitesuit to an untrained dog is nothing more than clothing...only a fool would test unfamiliar dogs without proper protection...


I won't argue that point Joby, but, f he was that sure they wouldn't bite he would do it anyway. He won't because he really isn't that sure. Besides, I wouldn't let him do it without a suit. I already said that so he knows he isn't going to do it in carharts either or he wouldn't have said it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey Dave - Catchers mask??:-D



Nope. I'm good. He has gone from maybe they'll bite to face and hand biting. The only way he would believe that is if he has been training. I'll make them go where I want them. It isn't going to be on my suit, face, feet or hands.

He has dogs that bark at people like a thousand other pet owners. 


The aftermath is going to sound like Rex kwan do, I am afraid. No, put your hand here. your other hand. You weren't scary enough, you didn't chase them far enough. etc..


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I won't argue that point Joby, but, f he was that sure they wouldn't bite he would do it anyway. He won't because he really isn't that sure. Besides, I wouldn't let him do it without a suit. I already said that so he knows he isn't going to do it in carharts either or he wouldn't have said it.



Good lord you are a control freak don. I'll wear what equipment I feel I need for safety. 

Although this may be a little insight into why this won't play out when i get there. Don says" (insert excuse here) so I won't let him do it..."


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> yeah way too much posturing for me.
> 
> i had similar question with my "off-breed", just rang the best decoy around paid him some cash and had a session - whole thing from go to woe was over in one afternnon, why all the endless drama queen stuff.
> 
> its like these 2 boys have a medical condition re attention seeking .


How did it work out with your off breed? OH, and dont' read or answer the thread if you don't like it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave said
> 
> 
> Dave you might want to explain this last statement. Like...what tracking deal... and where are you planning to spend the night before you fly out?


Several posts back I told you ariel and I would be willing to test your dogs after this. Real testing, for bitework, detection and tracking. If you are interested. We don't have to fly out until the next morning.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

What is the post #


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What is the post #


Post 92 in the Yes or No thread. The threads run together some. Also post 52 same thread.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> How did it work out with your off breed? OH, and dont' read or answer the thread if you don't like it.


i went with the scenarios the decoy suggested, he had the experience, i don't, he just wanted to see her responses, no bites, no physical - 

she went ape-sh!t from behind a fence on unfamiliar ground no suit/sleeve - 

she went nutzoid when in the car no suit/sleeve -

a scenario walking through bush-land on leash she detected early and held her ground/charged at decoy at end of leash. 

decoy took sleeve off at one point and threw it at her to see response she didn't even know what it was and ignored it and focussed on man.

does she have the "prey" drive to be a equipment/sport dog - no, she has the prey drive to hunt live prey down and kill - fetching a ball or biting a rag is not worth breaking slumber for 

does she have genetic defence - hell yeah

would she fight a man away from handler - no she would walk/run away

would she commit to a live bite - unproven, would rather avoid it if possible my guess, but likely in dogs own defence.

dog does its job if it alerts me to someone entering property, *don't need, can't handle, don't want the PITA lifestyle a dog that will bite for real brings*. 


hell a FR3 guy here said he invested so many years training his dog he would never risk getting it hurt in a live PPD situation. - thats kinda twists things when u thnk about it.



yeah yr right if don't like thread shouldn't read it. jus sayin it seems to be gettin overblown for what it is JMO. thought a few phone calls coulda got this done again JMO.

cheers


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Dave and Don I bet you two will be good olde buddies after it is all over. Don't forget that life is about human connections.

I found this little skit reminds me of you two on the internet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tan6x6JDV28
* WARNING VULGAR LANGUAGE*


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Post 92 in the Yes or No thread. The threads run together some. Also post 52 same thread.


Post # 52 made by Nicole
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maren Bell Jones 
For the carjacking bit, Dave can set it up just like the PSA 1 handler attack on motorist. It is described as such in the PSA rule book. Obviously obedience certain parts won't apply, but the set up would work fine. 

That scenario sounds reasonable and is something I would be interested in seeing incorporated into the vehicle test. I'd expect that for obvious reasons that the last part couldn't be executed but the rest I think can be.


Post #92 BY Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Turnipseed 
Yes Dave, I think they will bite. Not much different than you thinking they won't is there. Oh, but I know these dogs pretty well, you have never seen one. 


No difference at all until we are done. Neither one of us is on the fence though. That's a good thing.


I have been giving you a bunch of shit Don off and on and it was in the interest of doing this. At this point I believe it'll get done with no more bullshit. Hopefully we can do some training with a couple on or off camera after the testing is done. Now that this is a sure deal (I have tickets) I want to make the most of it. If you care to do it, Don, you have two folks coming that are willing to give an honest opinion. If you don't wish to do that for all the shit I've given you, I understand.

That was me being as humble as I am going to be.


Sorry Dave, don't see a thing about man tracking, or any of the other stuff you are alluding to that has nothing to do with will the dogs bite to protect. I have laid put two scenarios for you multiple times. That is what you are coming for. No more, no less.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

If anyone can't wait for the official Airedale Testing video.
Maybe this will give you an idea of what to expect? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdiZqatfReA&list=FLfaGT_WSsSEM7Z9SGz2JT8A&index=1


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Several posts back I told you ariel and I would be willing to test your dogs after this. Real testing, for bitework, detection and tracking. If you are interested. We don't have to fly out until the next morning.


I'm willing to do whatever training/testing anyone wants to do. I'd like to get my money's worth and not feeling like I'm paying for a flight to CA just to be a camera woman (although I'm okay with that). Maybe I should bring Blitzen along and we can test her too ...except she knows what a bite suit is.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Post #92 BY Dave


I have been giving you a bunch of shit Don off and on and it was in the interest of doing this. At this point I believe it'll get done with no more bullshit. *Hopefully we can do some training with a couple on or off camera after the testing is done.* Now that this is a sure deal (I have tickets) I want to make the most of it. If you care to do it, Don, you have two folks coming that are willing to give an honest opinion. If you don't wish to do that for all the shit I've given you, I understand.

That was me being as humble as I am going to be.

The second post was #58 on the other thread.

I am up for it. I would like to see an airedale trail a man too. Don has control of that, if he's interested. If we can find one social enough, Ariel can handle and I can run.



If you say no, that is up to you. It would be nice since nicole is coughing up a shit load to do this, but it's up to you.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> If anyone can't wait for the official Airedale Testing video.
> Maybe this will give you an idea of what to expect?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdiZqatfReA&list=FLfaGT_WSsSEM7Z9SGz2JT8A&index=1


Or this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_TINv4TKhk


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not that it matters cause there hasn't been a plan on how we can place our bets, but here are my wags at how this will turn out :

first re: the vids ....

imo they examples of space guarding not protection of an owner being attacked in any way shape or form
and labs and goldens from good breeding are some of the most people and burglar friendly dogs on the planet 

(hate to use the word "trained" in this thread), but Don has said his dogs won't attack people entering his property, therefore Ariel should be able to walk in untouched and unmolested
- i think that will definitely happen, and i believe Don, but i also believe that means they have had something that approximates "training" to act that way and not show aggression (space guarding) to someone entering in a non threatening manner....if not, bad - they are just resource guarding yard dogs imo

re: Dave's attack on Don, and altho i know there is a difference between engaging wild animals and humans, i think the fact that Don will be loud and verbal may be all the extra encouragement his dog will need to engage Dave before he gets close to Don and WILL bite him, whether or not it thinks Don is being attacked, and the more Don encourages that by being loud and vocal, the more it will escalate, and Don will have to pull it off, if Dave can't manhandle the dog himself
- but that would not be a good test imo 
.....if the dog goes for the face, that would seem to me to indicate that to the dog Dave is just another hog 
- this test should be evaluated based on how much it becomes an actual; check that, "simulated", attack on Don, to prove it is the dog protecting the owner, because i don't think verbal sparring at a distance from Dave is a legitimate signal to the dog that Don is being attacked by Dave. 
- iow : no attack on Don means no protection of owner displayed by the dog
- if the dog hesitates but engages Dave after he has been steadily approaching Don and when he's just a few feet away, i would say it qualifies as protection and I would be very impressed

my wag and disclaimers :
I think the dog WILL engage and bite, but sooner rather than later if Don starts yelling as soon as Dave enters the gate
- if the dog doesn't engage in daytime, it still might if done in darkness, but if the first run was done in darkness, that might give an weighted advantage to the dog
- if dave uses any pyro, all bets are off 
- if dave uses hi volume (mechanical or electronic) sound, ditto
- if the ROE changes a lot, so will my guesses

i base my guesses on the assumption Don really does know his dogs 
- but i would like to see a pic someday of one of his dogs grabbing a bear by its face 

i'm clueless as to the reactions for the carjacking - can't get a visual in my head how it will go down even tho it has been described


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

***yawwwwnnnn*****

DFrost


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CWDGKFfYK8

This is what I am picturing, only don will be yelling a whole lot more and I will be more aggressive and coming from the back of the car. I don't expect to see the dog out, though.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> ***yawwwwnnnn*****
> 
> DFrost


+ 1

After all this talk on multiple topics. The actual event is going to be anti climactic no matter what happens


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

This thread is approaching 7,000 views. Wow.

I hope it isn't anticlimactic, and we see something exciting one way or another.

There has not been this much hype for an event since Muhammad Ali fought in "The Thrilla in Manila"


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

It needs the Budweiser Bikini Team Girls there. They can take turns carrying a numbered sign around like at the boxing matches.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I don't worry much that it will be anticlimactic. This will get RED HOT again with all the congrats and I told you so's getting passed around by one side or the other..

This is just the calm before the storm, the eye of the hurricane if you will.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Tim Connell said:


> This thread is approaching 7,000 views. Wow.
> 
> I hope it isn't anticlimactic, and we see something exciting one way or another.
> 
> There has not been this much hype for an event since Muhammad Ali fought in "The Thrilla in Manila"


Tim hope that yr not suggesting hat fight was anti-climatctic - ??? ?  :| :smile:


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Tim hope that yr not suggesting hat fight was anti-climatctic - ??? ?  :| :smile:


Negative. Just comparing the amount of fervor leading up to what hopefully is an enlightening event...


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

assuming this happens, I give a lot of credit to Don for backing up his beliefs, especially considering all the big tough bandog/etc guys will never do this


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## Jamie King (Sep 6, 2011)

What if somebody gets hurt? Like really seriously hurt or gets their face bitten off or something. I don't want to see somebody end up on Oprah after getting a face transplant. That would be really bad press for the dogs. Men can be so silly


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## Jamie King (Sep 6, 2011)

I forgot that Oprah retired. I suppose this special could be on Dr. Oz


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jamie King said:


> I forgot that Oprah retired. I suppose this special could be on Dr. Oz


Jamie,

Is Dr Oz from Australia or is that really his name?
Or maybe he's part Wizard?


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi all, didn't read everything here just kinda skimmed then saw my name so figured I would post.

Yes, I have met Don and have seen his dogs, when I went to pick up Jager we BSed for a couple of hours while I was trying to decide which pup I would take. It was on a challenge to see if I could train the pup for Mondio. I think people would understand Don's posts more if they met him or spoke with him on the phone frequently lol. I tend to get a kick out of the topics he gets into, always stirring the pot, Don! 

Jager was quite different from what I am used to in a dog, I had never had a terrier before. I don't want to clutter the thread with a detailed rundown unless requested but the gist is that Jager was very intelligent, excellent nerve. I did have quite a few problems in training due to him getting ahold of some critters that suicided in his dog pen. Lost interest in inanimate objects after that. Also OB, he hated repition and around 7 months ish started giving me a lot of problems in OB with refusals. I was just starting to work through these problems when he died. To this day I don't know how it got into the pen but he ate part of a carcass that had been poisoned as coyote bait.

The chunks he took out of Cuda were in play, Cuda is very good with pups and has such a high pain tolerance that Jager would grab him and wrestle and I wouldn't know he'd been hurt until I started seeing blood on his back. Jager remained subservient to Cuda up until he died at 11 months, they just both played very rough and Cuda lets pups get away with murder. The only time Jager got jumped on and pinned was when he decided to take a chomp on Cuda's balls. He never did that again LOL

I only went through the 1st pen to get to the house, I think there were 5-6 dogs? Hard to remember, I drove 1140 some miles in about 23 hours(including the BSing, gassing up potty breaks etc) so everything is a bit fuzzy. But the dogs I waded through were all quite curious and friendly. I remember Don telling me to watch out that I might get peed on but luckily none of them tried lol

I am very interested in how this turns out. Mostly to see how Griff does, if he is tested. I would like to give one of your dogs another shot at Mondio, Don. See how Griff's pups turn out, if I don't have too many bulldogs by then I might come steal one :-D


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Grant Cusworth said:


> I have no dog in this fight... but really? Do people still believe that their dogs will protect them? I always find it comical when people make this claim about an untested, untrained dog from a breed that hasn't been developed to do such. Hell, people are out there breeding for generations on lines that have proven they've got the right stuff and if they get one or two pups out of a litter from proven breeding stock with generations of success in their pedigree they feel they've had a great breeding. Sure, a majority of the litter may be trained for some sport or another, or perhaps can be cornered and taught that if it lashes out in aggression the threat goes away... repeat that enough times and the dog may rise to the occasion. But I"m talking about that one or two very special animals that are so dominant and confident that they truly feel they're the most swinging-est dick in town. The dog that shows no aggression towards people unless they're a true threat, the dog that couldn't give a crap about another animal around unless it came over and bothered him, the dog that never hackles or barks at strangers. The one that you won't know it's real until it's too late because they haven't felt the need to puff up and look tough and scary. Because in that special dog's mind, there's no need for bravado, they KNOW they can tear anyone apart. Then my neighbor tells me about their -insert breed here- that "would protect me if I was in trouble". ha ha ha
> 
> I'm down to five mals at my house now, and was up at six of them once. Without exception I had 5 that would really make a guy think twice before walking through that gate. Lot's of growling, teeth, barking etc. Real badass's... lol. But there's only one that I would count on if it came down to it. That would be the one that would just lie on the front porch and watch the other 5 go nuts... Be sure, you'd get bit by all if you turned your back on them, or acted afraid. But if you challenged back and charged them? They'd shrivel up pretty quick. And these were all dogs from working lines that were produced for the expressed purpose of protection work. So why is it, that when the entire focus has been to produce a protection animal, and nothing else, is the success rate so low in reality? Yet people think that their purpose built retrieving dog will step up to the plate and hit a homer for them?
> 
> ...


I'm on the same page as Grant. Don's dogs are going to bark, nip and worry the helper. They won't bite anymore than a frontal 1/3 bite. And if the helper acts at all aggressively to the dogs they are going to back up. The smartest and most sane thing Don has ever written on this board is that he won't allow the dogs to be threatened. If Don says anything at all to the dog, even praise the dogs will disengage. Mind you I'm not just basing my prediction on just the breed. Most of my doubts are due to Don's descriptions of his rearing, training and house rules. 

But in a way I hope I'm completely wrong. It would entertain me to no end if Don's dogs surprised me. 

Any one that wants to wager against me send me a PM. Got to keep things interesting.;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> assuming this happens, I give a lot of credit to Don for backing up his beliefs, especially considering all the big tough bandog/etc guys will never do this


I would not say "all" Matt, I also think that most people in general, regardless of breed would never do this....at least not in this sort of public fashion...herders included...there are plenty of bandog people that will allow their dogs to be worked/tested, but that doesn't mean they are just going to agree to let some stranger come out and try to break their dogs down, which some people try to do, that would be foolish for anyone to agree to, almost any dog can be broken down by the right (or wrong) person.

I give Don credit of course, but since he does not train or breed for manwork, there is actually very little downside for him as a breeder.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I give Don credit of course, but since he does not train or breed for manwork, there is actually very little downside for him as a breeder.


Agree with this statement, emphasis on the first fragment.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I would not say "all" Matt, I also think that most people in general, regardless of breed would never do this....at least not in this sort of public fashion...herders included...there are plenty of bandog people that will allow their dogs to be worked/tested, but that doesn't mean they are just going to agree to let some stranger come out and try to break their dogs down, which some people try to do, that would be foolish for anyone to agree to, almost any dog can be broken down by the right (or wrong) person.
> 
> I give Don credit of course, but since he does not train or breed for manwork, there is actually very little downside for him as a breeder.


8):-D


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## Jamie King (Sep 6, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jamie,
> 
> Is Dr Oz from Australia or is that really his name?
> Or maybe he's part Wizard?


That's his name. It's a shame people aren't taking this more seriously. :-&


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jamie King said:


> That's his name. It's a shame people aren't taking this more seriously. :-&


Jamie,

After THIRTY PAGES of replies on this thread alone.
I'm surprised that anyone is taking it seriously anymore ;-)


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I agree that many people wouldnt let someone come out and just do their own tests, but I havent seen any of the bandog people willing to do or show anything. The two biggest names in California were both more than willing to talk dogs and sell me one, even said I could come out and check them out. But when I called back to say I would be in CA, neither returned a call.


Joby Becker said:


> I would not say "all" Matt, I also think that most people in general, regardless of breed would never do this....at least not in this sort of public fashion...herders included...there are plenty of bandog people that will allow their dogs to be worked/tested, but that doesn't mean they are just going to agree to let some stranger come out and try to break their dogs down, which some people try to do, that would be foolish for anyone to agree to, almost any dog can be broken down by the right (or wrong) person.
> 
> I give Don credit of course, but since he does not train or breed for manwork, there is actually very little downside for him as a breeder.


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## Stephanie P Johnson (Nov 13, 2009)

Congrats Don ! This is a good thing to see from a serious breeder.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

This will be very interesting.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

kevin holford said:


> This will be very interesting.


Yes it will....and it is only 6 days away. I am pumped. Reminds me of going to the natimnals. LOL


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

any tech gurus to hook up live internet streaming?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> any tech gurus to hook up live internet streaming?


Peter,

Be careful, they might want to make it a PPV to pay for the plane fare


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

7000+ views organsiations pay big bucks to get that kind of advertising - i claim D&D are in cahoots and have set this whole thing up - while they share the profits of the puppy sales after the vid of D1 pulling the dog off D2's " face" midway through the fight. i do like a good conspiracy theory .

i started off thinking this was UFC - now i know its just WWF on the WDF


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> 7000+ views organsiations pay big bucks to get that kind of advertising - i claim D&D are in cahoots and have set this whole thing up - while they share the profits of the puppy sales after the vid of D1 pulling the dog off D2's " face" midway through the fight. i do like a good conspiracy theory .
> 
> i started off thinking this was UFC - now i know its just WWF on the WDF



Betting on a conspiracy theory is a safe bet.
I kind of thought it was more like WTF on the WDF ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> I agree that many people wouldnt let someone come out and just do their own tests, but I havent seen any of the bandog people willing to do or show anything. The two biggest names in California were both more than willing to talk dogs and sell me one, even said I could come out and check them out. But when I called back to say I would be in CA, neither returned a call.


can't speak for whoever you are talking about, in your dealings with them but lots of bandog guys are working their dogs, and will allow someone to work them...2 kennels that did not respond to you, does not all make...

I know there are a lot of BS'ers out there, that is a given...I just responded to your ALL statement...

2 kennels is a drop in the bucket of the bandog scene...I imagine the bandog scene is filled with as many BS'ers as any other type of dog, maybe even more..lol..

When I used to be into Mollosser types, I traveled a lot, looking at dogs..
I would go and view dogs, and have equipment with me...I would wait until they talked the dogs up to me, then I would say "I have some sleeves and a suit in my car, lets take a look at them". It was rarely agreed before hand that I would be able to test them...very few people did not allow some sort of testing, many people backpedaled and came up with excuses...but most allowed some sort of testing, with mixed results of course...

I get what you are saying though, so many breeders say this or that and never ever work the dogs...just not ALL LOL... Snake Oil salesman come in all breeds and sizes...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

OK I guess the Internet gods are telling us this topic has run its course. It says there are 31 pages but keeps me on page 30 and wouldn't go to 31. Let's see if/where this post appears


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> OK I guess the Internet gods are telling us this topic has run its course. It says there are 31 pages but keeps me on page 30 and wouldn't go to 31. Let's see if/where this post appears


page 31 Thomas


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Betting on a conspiracy theory is a safe bet.
> I kind of thought it was more like WTF on the WDF ;-)



I was going to help don market his dogs at first, for a pup, as I like the off breeds. By helping market, I was coming to test them. I am not sure at which point that went south, but I am still going now, because I said I would. I am still looking forward to it, though.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

TWO MAMMALS ENTER, ONE MAMMAL LEAVE! -BUST A DEAL, GET THE WHEEL -who....run....working dog forum?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> TWO MAMMALS ENTER, ONE MAMMAL LEAVE! -BUST A DEAL, GET THE WHEEL -who....run....working dog forum?


 

i don't get it


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

!!thunderdome!!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

oh - me no have TV or go to movies


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I was going to help don market his dogs at first, for a pup, as I like the off breeds. By helping market, I was coming to test them. I am not sure at which point that went south, but I am still going now, because I said I would. I am still looking forward to it, though.


You were helping market nothing Dave, you were getting a free pup to train to see if they would even work for sport. The testing came much later with a free trip offer. You don't know where it went south....think of "douche". 

Anyone that wants an update on Sat. Dave is suppsed to be here about 9:30 to 10:30 am. My # is 559-474-4422


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> oh - me no have TV or go to movies



Bad on you mate! Good Aussie movie! One of the first that made Mel Gibson a star. :grin: :wink:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You were helping market nothing Dave, you were getting a free pup to train to see if they would even work for sport. The testing came much later with a free trip offer. You don't know where it went south....think of "douche".
> 
> Anyone that wants an update on Sat. Dave is suppsed to be here about 9:30 to 10:30 am. My # is 559-474-4422



I am not going to answer that right now since I promised Nicole not to get into it with you on this thread, as did you. I'll post after Saturday. Good luck Don. 

Just relax and let it happen Don.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i seen mad max - don't know if that was his first but its his best - check out the scenery - birth place of the kelpie and ACD.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Good luck Don.
> 
> Just relax and let it happen Don.


its not child birth WTF


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I was told by an Airedale breeder that they wont do good in sport because they are to serious and civil and would be hard to control..

I have worked Airdales, and that is not what I have seen, granted maybe they weren't the same type of killer airedales that the person who told me that breeds...


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Good luck to all involved. Hope it turns out well and that we get to see some nice dogs and fair testing. 

If possible, please post video of the test and performance of the dogs. 

Internet has a way of getting people's emotions out of control. Dont put too much weight on what's said here...


----------



## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

I hope they bite, I like dales. Good luck.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> OK I guess the Internet gods are telling us this topic has run its course. It says there are 31 pages but keeps me on page 30 and wouldn't go to 31. Let's see if/where this post appears


That post is on page 31. Hmmm, stranger than fiction.

DFrost


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> That post is on page 31. Hmmm, stranger than fiction.
> 
> DFrost


David,

Like I said in the Ask a Mod post
I can see this page(32) and 30 but not 31
Oh well I guess I can always go train my dogs while
you mods figure out what's going on ;-)


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> David,
> 
> Like I said in the Ask a Mod post
> I can see this page(32) and 30 but not 31
> ...


By "you mods" I can assure you, you mean Ms Connie. I'm as lost as last years' Easter egg about such matters.

DFrost


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I am not going to answer that right now since I promised Nicole not to get into it with you on this thread, as did you. I'll post after Saturday. Good luck Don.
> 
> Just relax and let it happen Don.


Oh, I am relaxed son, looking forward to it, inviting people. Posted my # on a public forum so you can't say you didn't have it. GF's first duty is video everything from our meeting on. LOL Good luck to you.


----------



## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

31 pages?? go to your User CP and change your post count to forty posts per page ... i only have 9 pages


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tyree Johnson said:


> 31 pages?? go to your User CP and change your post count to forty posts per page ... i only have 9 pages


THANK YOU...great idea...saves time from changing pages..


----------



## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> I am not going to answer that right now since I promised Nicole not to get into it with you on this thread, as did you. I'll post after Saturday. Good luck Don.
> 
> Just relax and let it happen Don.


Dave, are you guys still flying into San Jose or you going through Sacramento? I've been trying to change my plans for next weekend and offer to drive you there (if you come through SJ) or put you up but I'll be out of town with the fam and can't change that I'm afraid. Although I don't have my puppy yet was hoping to just hang out and show you around... Oh well. It would be a shame not to visit some Sch clubs while you're in town...

Good luck to both of you.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

David Petruescu said:


> Dave, are you guys still flying into San Jose or you going through Sacramento? I've been trying to change my plans for next weekend and offer to drive you there (if you come through SJ) or put you up but I'll be out of town with the fam and can't change that I'm afraid. Although I don't have my puppy yet was hoping to just hang out and show you around... Oh well. It would be a shame not to visit some Sch clubs while you're in town...
> 
> Good luck to both of you.


Thanks David. I think Don opened his home to all that wanted to attend. Shame you can't make it, but I appreciate the offer very much of opening YOUR home to us. That's what dog training is really about to me. Getting out and meeting new folks, training and talking dogs. I am sorry I missed the opportunity with you.

We'll be coming into SJ.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> OK I guess the Internet gods are telling us this topic has run its course. It says there are 31 pages but keeps me on page 30 and wouldn't go to 31. Let's see if/where this post appears


Thomas, can you see the original of this post? Because for me, it's on page 31. What page is it on for you?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

MMMmmm Mine says 33


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> MMMmmm Mine says 33


For the original of that post? Post number 302?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I highly recommend going into the user CP, go to options...and do like was said...40 posts per page...page 9 here


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hey Don - Are you expecting Bush, Cheney, Mc Govern and Palin at your shindig?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey Don - Are you expecting Bush, Cheney, Mc Govern and Palin at your shindig?


if they are coming I will be there...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey Don - Are you expecting Bush, Cheney, Mc Govern and Palin at your shindig?


Palin will be here Lee. Got a dog named after her. :grin: Had a guy coming down for a pup sometime back from BC. Had the pup answering to GW by the time he came and picked it up. He changed the name.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> By "you mods" I can assure you, you mean Ms Connie. I'm as lost as last years' Easter egg about such matters.
> 
> DFrost



The kids are letting me hide my own Easter eggs now. Still can't find the nasty little things!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Palin will be here Lee. Got a dog named after her. :grin: Had a guy coming down for a pup sometime back from BC. Had the pup answering to GW by the time he came and picked it up. He changed the name.


He must have been some radical SOB!:smile:


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Too bad you can't see page 32, Thomas. It was all about you!


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I highly recommend going into the user CP, go to options...and do like was said...40 posts per page...page 9 here


That's what I wound up doing and it seems to work.
There is NO page 30 or 31 anymore ;-)


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Too bad you can't see page 32, Thomas. It was all about you!


It's always all about me Lee and now I can see everything written 
Don't forget I know where you live in case you said anything bad 
Off to training


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

congratulations D ______________, knew all along you were right buddy, had ya back all the way bro. told ya so D__________________ what were you thinking, eat sh!t loser.

please insert correct names when results come in.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> congratulations D ______________, knew all along you were right buddy, had ya back all the way bro. told ya so D__________________ what were you thinking, eat sh!t loser.
> 
> please insert correct names when results come in.


chuckle, chuckle.


----------



## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Tyree Johnson said:


> 31 pages?? go to your User CP and change your post count to forty posts per page ... i only have 9 pages


Your a saint


----------



## Doug Whittemore (Aug 29, 2011)

Jamie King said:


> What if somebody gets hurt? Like really seriously hurt or gets their face bitten off or something. I don't want to see somebody end up on Oprah after getting a face transplant. That would be really bad press for the dogs. Men can be so silly


I predict only feelings will get hurt...

We wont be tuning in to any Oprah episodes


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Is there a 35th page going on. I so II can't get beyond page 34. I'm showing like there is a page 35.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Never mind. I figured out how to get it in a round about kind of way.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Only 4 days left!!!


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

need to have don king or the WDF equivalent promote it...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Need to have a poll to see how many think they will bite vs won't bite. I don't know how to set it up.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Only 4 days left!!!


Don, just a reminder that I need a response to my email so please follow up with me by the end of the day. If I do not hear back from you, the scenarios will be emailed to Dave as is.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Don, just a reminder that I need a response to my email so please follow up with me by the end of the day. If I do not hear back from you, the scenarios will be emailed to Dave as is.


I sent it back last night....will resend it.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Is there a 35th page going on. I so II can't get beyond page 34. I'm showing like there is a page 35.


No problem with pages at this end, I think you're all just looking for an excuse to post 'cos you're all bored :razz:.

It's a shame this whole thing isn't being conducted in better spirit, particularly by D2, too much aggravation and defense been going on....too much to lose maybe, or maybe just shitting a brick or too .


----------



## Doug Whittemore (Aug 29, 2011)

There is Nothing to promote. Untrained dogs not bred for this work....will react accordingly. There will be no fight, no face grabbing, no nothing. 






Im curious to ask Don T. a question, 
You made mention of your dogs being 'Face dogs'..that is an interesting description and describes bulldogs Real Catch dogs..
Do you 1 photo or video of your dogs, grabbing Anything by the face that fights back? 
Just curious.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Whittemore said:


> There is Nothing to promote. Untrained dogs not bred for this work....will react accordingly. There will be no fight, no face grabbing, no nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doug

You need to do an intro before you jump into too much posting.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

You beat me, Thomas. 

Douglas, you need to do an intro/bio. (Everyone does.) Thanks. 
http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/


----------



## Doug Whittemore (Aug 29, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Doug
> 
> You need to do an intro before you jump into too much posting.


Sorry. I just joined and have not really been instructed. 
I did enjoy reading 35 pages of cyber posturing craziness.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doug Whittemore said:


> Sorry. I just joined and have not really been instructed.
> I did enjoy reading 35 pages of cyber posturing craziness.


 
What did you mean by enjoy


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You beat me, Thomas.
> 
> Douglas, you need to do an intro/bio. (Everyone does.) Thanks.
> http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/


WDF members

That is a vicious lie. I have never beat Connie. 
No matter how annoying she was ;-)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> WDF members
> 
> That is a vicious lie. I have never beat Connie.
> No matter how annoying she was ;-)


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Doug Whittemore said:


> Sorry. I just joined and have not really been instructed.
> *I did enjoy reading 35 pages of cyber posturing craziness*.


hi Doug i like you already


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi Doug i like you already


Stop muttering Pete!!!!:razz:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> Stop muttering Pete!!!!:razz:


 
nah seriously the guy omes with the right attitude. 


Doug Z check out my pup pics - they are a few mo but u can see the beast yrself on pup pics thread no less.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Only 3 days left!!! :wink:


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

5 hours closer!!! :grin:


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I know you probably don't need it, but I wish you and your dogs Good Luck, Don! I think the thing that would make everyone the happiest would be for a positive result, after all, there's really nothing much a good decoy loves more than a good dog to spar with. 

Personally, this whole thing has sort of mystifed me, I'm honestly not sure what the point is, but this wouldn't be the first time things went over my head like a great big ole jet plane - I come by my blond hair honestly! 

In any case, I have a feeling that no matter the outcome, you and those who have gone out to meet you will all have a greater understanding and respect for one another by the time the dust settles. I guess that would be the best outcome of all.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

nice thoughts Susan and i agree, somehow i sense this has gone beyond that - could be wrong its happened once before lol.

my penny worth; stay safe, have fun and learn, take care of yourselves and dogs.

peace


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I joke around a bunch but I sincerely hope the respect stuff really takes place. Things got a bit aggressive for a while but sometimes meeting a man face to face helps.

I'm still looking forward to another 35 or a 100 "I told you so" posts no matter what the outcome. It won't just be the people who publicly commented but the ones who hid until it is over will crawl out from under the rock they have been hiding at to tell all of us they knew it the whole time.

I presume this thread will break all previous WDF World Posting Records for sheer numerical amount of posts and views. It will be a while before we get another thread like this one and it isn't close to being done yet!


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> ... I'm still looking forward to another 35 or a 100 "I told you so" posts no matter what the outcome. It won't just be the people who publicly commented but the ones who hid until it is over will crawl out from under the rock they have been hiding at to tell all of us they knew it the whole time. ...


Don't you mean 35 or 100 PAGES of "I told you so" posts? :lol:


I agree with you, BTW, that many such posts will come from folks who make no prediction now. 


I know I hide it well, but I think of the regular posting population here as a decent and generous bunch of people .... oh, and outspoken, too! :lol:

Meeting face to face with a group like that can only end up positive.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Don't you mean 35 or 100 PAGES of "I told you so" posts? :lol:
> 
> 
> I agree with you, BTW, that many such posts will come from folks who make no prediction now.
> ...



Yep, I screwed up, I meant - PAGES - of posts!


----------



## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Yikes, don't know, I've been ignoring this thread for a number of days. I thought this was settled already with the times, scenerios and what not. Now I've read through 30 plus pages of rehash!!!???? What did I dream about this?! Or is this really a redux?

Lee, I'll stick by my original assessment, pm me for the side bet.

Way cool guys!
Looking forward to how it turns out.


----------



## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Not that I'm going to be one of the people coming back after the fact and saying "I told ya so", but my vote goes to my buddy Dave. Have known him several years, trained with him and I'm confident in his skills. Other than that, Im going to say good luck and enjoy the trip Dave & Ariel!


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Number of posts and views are coming close to the Jeff O threads of the past.....


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> many such posts will come from folks who make no prediction now.


 

i refer you to post 337

thank you very much :razz:


----------



## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I think that don's dogs will bite, not sure about the choking off part - I think that they'd 'out' on being yelled at / struck by their 'pack leader'.

Would love to see a test on neutral ground without car etc. think it'd be a more complicated bet.

As for that side bet, put me down for 20 on Don's side.


----------



## Benjamin Espindola (Mar 17, 2010)

I am having a long weekend and will travel with my wife, but will certainly take my laptop with me to follow the outcome, can't waint until Monday to do so. 

By the way, I am with the "they will bite" side.

Good luck.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Day after tomorrow folks!!! :wink:


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

The anticipation is killing me.. don't let your girlfriend and Ariel sleep on getting those videos up!


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

We have never taken a video or put one up, but, I will be working on it before Dave and Ariel get out the drive way. :wink: Had to borrow the camera from a friend. Already told some of the neighbors not to call the PO'lice if they hear a lot of commotion her Sat. morning. Well, told two of them anyway.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hey Don - Have you decided yet who (what dog) will be the opening act for this dog show?


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Dave Martin said:


> The anticipation is killing me.. don't let your girlfriend and Ariel sleep on getting those videos up!


It will go WDF VIRAL!\\/


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> We have never taken a video or put one up, but, I will be working on it before Dave and Ariel get out the drive way. :wink: Had to borrow the camera from a friend. Already told some of the neighbors not to call the PO'lice if they hear a lot of commotion her Sat. morning. Well, told two of them anyway.


Yeah, those FACE bites kind sting.:razz:


----------



## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

If these bad boys bite; they will be my next pup!


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Can't wait... 

Go Dales!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

kevin holford said:


> If these bad boys bite; they will be my next pup!


If they bite the price doubles and there will be a line around the block.\\/


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> We have never taken a video or put one up, but, I will be working on it before Dave and Ariel get out the drive way. :wink: Had to borrow the camera from a friend.


Didn't you say you have a really slow internet connection? That might be a big problem with a large, high def video.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Don't you mean 35 or 100 PAGES of "I told you so" posts?


Man, I hope not, considering I recently switched my settings to show 30 posts per page.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey Don - Have you decided yet who (what dog) will be the opening act for this dog show?


'
Titan in the yard









Odin in the truck


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I got DSL no too long ago


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

They look pissed already.


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Well Titan looks like he may want to provide some nice big puncture wounds.. but Odin has a sensitivity in his eyes that suggests he may just want to be Dave's buddy after he nabs your truck


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

They both love people Dave M.....but they love me more. They are here pumping the septic tank in Odin's yard right now(and y'all thought I was kidding...LOL) but he keeps getting in their way.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've always loved the "look" in a terriers eye! Some call it a varmity expression.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am ready...just went over and picked up the video camera and he showed me how to use one. Let's do it! \\/ \\/ \\/


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Just occurred to me that in less than *2 days*, Your questions *will* all be answered :wink:


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> They look pissed already.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am ready...just went over and picked up the video camera and he showed me how to use one. Let's do it! \\/ \\/ \\/


 
Don don't forget fresh batteries


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Just occurred to me that in less than *2 days*, Your questions *will* all be answered :wink:


Yours too, Don. I have no doubt we will all learn something from this. You and everyone involved have stepped up to the plate and it's appreciated.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Martin said:


> Yours too, Don. I have no doubt we will all learn something from this. You and everyone involved have stepped up to the plate and it's appreciated.


 
err Dave whats the lesson - that the male ego knows no bounds, that the willingness of people to prove a point no matter how inane is limitless???

please tell me


----------



## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Don, would you say your bond with your inside dog is the strongest and would she engage an intruder? I would think she would have the highest level of protectiveness being inside and closer to you, IMO females having maternal instincts are more naturally protective. My female inside the house is on a whole different level then if by my side outside, it is her domain and she is guardian almost to a fault.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> Don, would you say your bond with your inside dog is the strongest and would she engage an intruder? I would think she would have the highest level of protectiveness being inside and closer to you, IMO females having maternal instincts are more naturally protective. My female inside the house is on a whole different level then if by my side outside, it is her domain and she is guardian almost to a fault.


Mike, I don't have an inside dog . The pup I was teaching house manners is an outside dog. I just bring her in for the manners lesson, then she goes back out. BlackJack was my buddy, house dog, truck dog etc, but he is the one that was killed. Titan and Odin were never in the house at all that I can think of.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> err Dave whats the lesson - that the male ego knows no bounds, that the willingness of people to prove a point no matter how inane is limitless???
> 
> please tell me


Pete, I don't think you'd get it, because you aren't cut from the same cloth.

Simple, and it has nothing to do with ego. You don't go back on your word when you say you'll do something. Whether its in an internet forum or in person, you do what you say.

I said I would be there, so I'll be there. Don said he would, then wouldn't, now will. There is no lesson in this other than to be a man of your word. The rest is opinion.

What do you think the point is?


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> err Dave whats the lesson - that the male ego knows no bounds, that the willingness of people to prove a point no matter how inane is limitless???
> 
> please tell me


Male ego? It's a shame you really don't seem to understand what's going on here, or are too narrow-minded to learn something. Your loss.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, I don't have an inside dog . The pup I was teaching house manners is an outside dog. I just bring her in for the manners lesson, then she goes back out. BlackJack was my buddy, house dog, truck dog etc, but he is the one that was killed. Titan and Odin were never in the house at all that I can think of.


Maybe that's why they look so pissed off.


----------



## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, I don't have an inside dog . The pup I was teaching house manners is an outside dog. I just bring her in for the manners lesson, then she goes back out. BlackJack was my buddy, house dog, truck dog etc, but he is the one that was killed. Titan and Odin were never in the house at all that I can think of.


Oh, must have misinterpreted one of your posts, thought you had a female that stayed inside fulltime.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike, there are two adult females that are great in the house but they live outside during the summer. Palin does sleep in the house during the winter.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Pete, I don't think you'd get it, because you aren't cut from the same cloth.
> 
> There is no lesson in this other than to be a man of your word. The rest is opinion.
> 
> What do you think the point is?


 
OK don't have to get all up in my face about it, i'm just a retard cut from another cloth lol - i hate F'ing metaphors - (just out of curiousity what cloth would that be that i'm cut from, u know anything about me, even just one thing, what cloth you cut from?).

i should have ended my post with IMO perhaps.


i think the point is to see if an untrained dog will protect their owner when faced with a real pretend attack? and will it bite like a trained dog or just bite like an untrained dog - i thnk.

that couldn't have been done quietly one afternoon? - i think is my other point.

anyways i genulnely wish u both luck and that there is peace in the valley afterwards. my opinions don't add to sh!t re this issue but i guess you couln't have minded the input some 7000 views later.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> OK don't have to get all up in my face about it, i'm just a retard cut from another cloth lol - i hate F'ing metaphors - (just out of curiousity what cloth would that be that i'm cut from, u know anything about me, even just one thing, what cloth you cut from?).
> 
> i should have ended my post with IMO perhaps.
> 
> ...


Tranquilo Peter! The natives are getting a tad restless before the showdown at the OK CORRAL

Can't blame them one bit.:smile:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

cheers Lee - my mouth is shut


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> They look pissed already.


Lee,

Of course they look pissed, look who they have to live with


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Lee,
> 
> Of course they look pissed, look who they have to live with [/QU
> 
> ...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Tranquilo Peter! The natives are getting a tad restless before the showdown at the OK CORRAL
> 
> Can't blame them one bit.:smile:


LOL. Nada Lee. I am having a ball with this. All I am doing is keeping a countdown basically while Dave tries to convince himself he is a better man for doing what he said he would do. Translation is he backed himself in a corner and really doesn't want to do it....but he is going to "man" up...for the audience of course. Just haven't figured out why "manning up " is such a big deal to him if he did it very often. You draw your own conclusions. :razz:

Peter, it is about biting to protect. There was a thread on this subject of some dogs are just naturally protective. Way to many don't believe dogs are naturally protective. Anyone know what thread that is????


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> cheers Lee - my mouth is shut


Shoot for post number 7,001


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Thomas Barriano said:
> 
> 
> > Lee,
> ...


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> . Translation is he backed himself in a corner and really doesn't want to do it....but he is going to "man" up...for the audience of course. Just haven't figured out why "manning up " is such a big deal to him if he did it very often. You draw your own conclusions. :razz:


Hi Don...is Dave saying he can't make it out to see you and the dogs?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Hi Don...is Dave saying he can't make it out to see you and the dogs?


No


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Shoot for post number 7,001


 
holy sheeeeeeet, wer'e 10k+ views, this is viral, money if you can prove you are the 10 501'st viewer


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL. Nada Lee. I am having a ball with this. All I am doing is keeping a countdown basically while Dave tries to convince himself he is a better man for doing what he said he would do. Translation is he backed himself in a corner and really doesn't want to do it....but he is going to "man" up...for the audience of course. Just haven't figured out why "manning up " is such a big deal to him if he did it very often. You draw your own conclusions. :razz:
> 
> Peter, it is about biting to protect. There was a thread on this subject of some dogs are just naturally protective. Way to many don't believe dogs are naturally protective. Anyone know what thread that is????



All these words are yours don. Anyone who read the thread knows you got scared when i said Competition, not douche. Just be there, and try and take some time out from promoting your dogs to get this done. You have the tests just like you wanted, I wouldn't think of changing that so you'd back out. Just be there. And FYI. It is a test. FYI it is YOUR dogs that are being tested.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don said: _Peter, it is about biting to protect. There was a thread on this subject of some dogs are just naturally protective. Way to many don't believe dogs are naturally protective. Anyone know what thread that is????_

I agree with you on this - maybe we can revert to it afterwards - I've seen a lot of civil and sport bites (guarding exercises) that ended in hospital treatment,

Can't forecast the outcome but best wishes to all!!!!


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## Doug Whittemore (Aug 29, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> holy sheeeeeeet, wer'e 10k+ views, this is viral, money if you can prove you are the 10 501'st viewer



Yes, but isnt it the same few hundred people reading every new post that makes up that number?




I already stated what will happen...or wont happen. 

And base this on 20+ years dog experience.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Doug Whittemore said:


> I already stated what will happen...or wont happen.
> 
> And base this on* 20+ years dog experience*.


 
can u answer me this Doug as noone else ever has;

select the most dominant pup from the most dominant, extreme fight drive, civil line (any breed) which has a proven history of producing such pups;

place that pup in a home with competent handlers who do good basic obed. the dog never gets stimulated by a helper, never gets agitated or in any way gets it suspicion levels raised.

provide whatever non-threatening activity the dog likes, lets say fly-ball.


what does that dog become? (besides good at flyball lol)

this is kind of the reverse of the current thread question.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL. Nada Lee. I am having a ball with this. All I am doing is keeping a countdown basically while Dave tries to convince himself he is a better man for doing what he said he would do. Translation is he backed himself in a corner and really doesn't want to do it....but he is going to "man" up...for the audience of course. Just haven't figured out why "manning up " is such a big deal to him if he did it very often. You draw your own conclusions. :razz:
> 
> Peter, it is about biting to protect. There was a thread on this subject of some dogs are just naturally protective. Way to many don't believe dogs are naturally protective. Anyone know what thread that is????



Just be there Don. Get everything you need today, so you don't have to "run to the store" tomorrow at showtime.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave seems to want to believe I might not be here. LMAO. Doesnt he realize I live here. I am always here. Well at least he must have realized that patting himself on the back for just doing what he said he would do, looked pretty stupid. Let's face it folks. Dave is bragging about doing this only because he said he would. Can't be much more obvious that he hasn't wanted to do it since he
tried to make it the big trained competition. He hasn't wanted to do this since long before he even got the tickets. 

Dave doesn't realize that I am no different in person. He gets to meet the two dogs mentioned but nothing else. Ariel can meet the german dog and test him if she wishes. Dave is just going to do what he said he would do because he is a man. LOL Tomorow Dave, then it will be over and you can put it behind you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Whoa, just 25 1/2 hours to go people. A few questions will be answered then.....like will Dave be here. LOL I live here so I will be here. I guess we will know then if he really does what he says. Seems like kind of a new thing for him since he seems so impressed with the idea of it.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

You're sounding nervous Don. :-$


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I dont even care if the dogs bite or not....I just want to know who is going to throw the first punch?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Are these dogs going to be tested for drugs or performance enhancers ?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

For example, if Don were to drop the dogs a tab of acid and they bit/protected enthusiastically, would that count ?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don, am I on ignore yet ? :-D


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> I dont even care if the dogs bite or not....I just want to know who is going to throw the first punch?


That won't happen Will. You have to read people pretty good to understand a lot of what I have said about how impressed Dave is with himself for something so simple as just doing what he said he would do. Another thing is, in my day we called people a lot of things, but, douche wasn't one of the things we used. LOL When you hear a "man" calling someone a douch", it is a pretty safe bet that there won't be any punches thrown.....maybe a slap ot two eh. LMAO It is the pussification. But you can take this to the bank, I don't shake anyones hand no matter who extends theirs if I can't honestly tell them I am glad to meet them. There will be no hand shaking or any of that other bullshit. As Dave said, he is only doing this because he is a "man" and he said he would do it. No other reason. I get to see if the dogs are as game at going after people as they are with dangerous game.. Protecting me is what triggers them. It is that simple. If Ariel want to check out the German dog fine, if not fine. Dave does the two scenarios and that is it. My interest is dogs and behavior, not making a new friends......particuarily this one.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That won't happen Will. You have to read people pretty good to understand a lot of what I hav said about hoiw impressed Dave is with himself for something so simple as just doing what he said he would do. Another thing is, in my day we called people a lot of things, but, douche wasn't one of the things we used. LOL When you hear a "man" calling someone a douch", it is a pretty safe bet that there won't be any punches thrown.....maybe a slap ot two eh. LMAO It is the pussification. .... My interest is dogs and behavior, not making a new friends......particuarily this one.



#-o


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave does the two scenarios and that is it. My interest is dogs and behavior, not making a new friends......particuarily this one.


__


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sorry Connie, I am what I am. This could have, and was meant to be, something in good spirit. It is past that, but, I will be civil. I haven't got much to offer past that. Besides, I want to see Dave run these dogs across the yard with his "bad eye". I think the pet dogs he is used to training he could get by with that......


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Will, 

Here are the two scenarios, in order as given to me. It would seem your question will be answered when we start the second scenario. 

_*CARJACK *The carjacking I will just sit behind the steering wheel and hold the leash. Not even going to yell. but Dave does have to be aggressive. The carjacking is a cake walk for me because all I am going to do is keep Odin from getting out of the truck._




*Yard Test *- as described by Don. Again, any additional details can be worked out next week.


_Dave will give us about 15 min and go ahead and drive up to the inside gate. Enter the yard and walk down toward the deck. As Dave gets closer to the deck where Ariel and my girlfriend, can video what is happening, Dave will become aggressive as will I. I will come out hollering and I will go out and make contact with Dave. When we make contact, my GF will open the gate for Titan. As the dog is released, I will step back This is set up this way to show none of the dogs are in any way territorially aggressive. Simple and quick. 
_


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That won't happen Will. You have to read people pretty good to understand a lot of what I have said about how impressed Dave is with himself for something so simple as just doing what he said he would do. Another thing is, in my day we called people a lot of things, but, douche wasn't one of the things we used. LOL When you hear a "man" calling someone a douch", it is a pretty safe bet that there won't be any punches thrown.....maybe a slap ot two eh. LMAO It is the pussification. But you can take this to the bank, I don't shake anyones hand no matter who extends theirs if I can't honestly tell them I am glad to meet them. There will be no hand shaking or any of that other bullshit. As Dave said, he is only doing this because he is a "man" and he said he would do it. No other reason. I get to see if the dogs are as game at going after people as they are with dangerous game.. Protecting me is what triggers them. It is that simple. If Ariel want to check out the German dog fine, if not fine. Dave does the two scenarios and that is it. My interest is dogs and behavior, not making a new friends......particuarily this one.


I'm not sure people understand your position. Could you clarify that?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Wow. Through all of this I have never gotten the impression that Dave is "impressed" with himself....well if I'm 100% honest about it, at least not any more than you are impressed with yourself, Don. :wink: Kind of a pot/kettle statement coming from you, buddy! :-\"

A wise man is careful that his mouth isn't writing a check his ass can't cash.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave seems to want to believe I might not be here. LMAO. Doesnt he realize I live here. I am always here. Well at least he must have realized that patting himself on the back for just doing what he said he would do, looked pretty stupid. Let's face it folks. Dave is bragging about doing this only because he said he would. Can't be much more obvious that he hasn't wanted to do it since he
> tried to make it the big trained competition. He hasn't wanted to do this since long before he even got the tickets.
> 
> Dave doesn't realize that I am no different in person. He gets to meet the two dogs mentioned but nothing else. Ariel can meet the german dog and test him if she wishes. Dave is just going to do what he said he would do because he is a man. LOL Tomorow Dave, then it will be over and you can put it behind you.


I must have missed something. Which dog is the German dog and what's been mentioned about testing him? I know I haven't read every page of this thread, but I had some time to catch up while I'm sitting in Boston waiting for my flight to San Jose. I will certainly test the dog if we have the time and the desire ...I just don't remember hearing about that before.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ok...the offsite gambling parlor is up and running, in addition to increasing the volume of bets on the outcome with the dogs, we have now opened up the side bets, to incude the outcome of the "fight" between the 2 people involved.

I you would like to bet on if the outcome of this possiblity...please press one.

Don kicks Dave's ass, and his dogs do not even have to bite Dave.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Ok...the offsite gambling parlor is up and running, in addition to increasing the volume of bets on the outcome with the dogs, we have now opened up the side bets, to incude the outcome of the "fight" between the 2 people involved.
> 
> I you would like to bet on if the outcome of this possiblity...please press one.
> 
> Don kicks Dave's ass, and his dogs do not even have to bite Dave.



Joby,

I have an affinity for fat old men with bad attitudes, (being one myself) but I think the "Don kicks Dave's ass" scenario isn't very likely 
When we say the Aireheads.....I mean Airedales  will bite.
We mean Dave right? Biting Ariel or Don or his GF doesn't count.

On a serious note:
Too bad that Don is refusing to shake Dave's hand when he gets there. I haven't seen anything posted that would justify
that kind of reaction. Let's just get this thing over with.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Originally Posted by *will fernandez*  
_I dont even care if the dogs bite or not....I just want to know who is going to throw the first punch?_




Don Turnipseed said:


> That won't happen Will.




As everyone knows, each man can only control his own actions. Glad to know where you stand with your actions, Don. As long as you mind your manners, that'll work.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> I have an affinity for fat old men with bad attitudes, (being one myself) but I think the "Don kicks Dave's ass" scenario isn't very likely
> When we say the Aireheads.....I mean Airedales  will bite.
> ...


The betting line starts at 12-1 odds, volume will dictate the final odds..


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> The betting line starts at 12-1 odds, volume will dictate the final odds..


 
I am betting that Don will be a great host and give Dave a hug instead of handshake!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> I am betting that Don will be a great host and give Dave a hug instead of handshake!


That line is now open as well, it starts at 15-1... pless press 2 at the prompt, and enter your dollar amount.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> That line is now open as well, it starts at 15-1... pless press 2 at the prompt, and enter your dollar amount.



Is there a field then for credit card numbers? Or PayPal? :lol:


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is there a field then for credit card numbers? Or PayPal? :lol:


...or are you suggesting that credit card numbers along with security codes be emailed to you?


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

I betting Don's dogs bite(Dave).....After reading all this BULLCRAP If Don has not had time to train these dogs to bite you should throw him off the WDF....But I will pay 2:1 they don't bite Ariel!!! know way know how...Don will just be scratching his head:-k:-k:-k


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

DO NOT TAKE HILL'S ODDS...

The "official" odds against Don's Dogs biting Ariel are now at a respectable
18-1.

The odds against Don's dogs biting Don are now up to 25-1..

Discaimer:

In the possible occurance that Don either falls down on the ground by hismelf, or is pushed to, or thrown onto the ground first by Dave, the odds against Don's dogs biting Don are currently set at 5-1.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I'll put a pound on the nose. Do you have an automatic conversion Joby ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually Dave, that is just the description of the two scenario's. The yard is the first one when you get to the house. The car jacking is the second one. GF is serving chips and sandwiches in between. Ariel can meet Griff if she want's or not. Then I will corral Odin and get him in the truck for the second one.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually Dave, that is just the description of the two scenario's. The yard is the first one when you get to the house. The car jacking is the second one. GF is serving chips and sandwiches in between. Ariel can meet Griff if she want's or not. Then I will corral Odin and get him in the truck for the second one.


Does Dave get a sandwich ?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Does Dave get a sandwich ?


Yeah......a knuckle sandwich


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Yeah......a knuckle sandwich


The odds against the knuckle sandwich being soft, well manicured and/or sufficiently clean, if it happens, is currently at 3 to 5.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> DO NOT TAKE HILL'S ODDS...
> 
> The "official" odds against Don's Dogs biting Ariel are now at a respectable
> 18-1.
> ...


The whole thing is top see if the dogs will protect. I "am" going to fall on the ground. The idea is to "trick" the dog into thinking it is real. If you really knew dogs Joby, I would think you would know if the dog is going to cur on biting people, he is going to cur no matter where I am. Just to make it interesting, I will fall in front of the dog so he has to go around or over to show his intent.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I will fall in front of the dog so he has to go around or over to show his intent.


picturing Don getting bit in the ass :-D


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

hillel schwartzman said:


> I betting Don's dogs bite(Dave).....After reading all this BULLCRAP If Don has not had time to train these dogs to bite you should throw him off the WDF....But I will pay 2:1 they don't bite Ariel!!! know way know how...Don will just be scratching his head:-k:-k:-k


Hill, I wouldn't know how to train the dogs to protect me. You can't train a dog to want to protect, just bite. Of course they won't bite Ariel, she isn't posing a threat to me. She is going to go around and video how friendly they are before this starts.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> picturing Don getting bit in the ass :-D


LOL I'll take the chance to prove a point. LOL They won't bite me....never happen. I am their god remember. :razz:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

in the unlikely event that Don's dogs fly across the yard and commit to bite Dave, and Dave uses Don as a shield by inserting Don between himself and Don's dog at the last second, the line against Don's dog biting Don are set at a respectable 2 to 1.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Wow. Through all of this I have never gotten the impression that Dave is "impressed" with himself....well if I'm 100% honest about it, at least not any more than you are impressed with yourself, Don. :wink: Kind of a pot/kettle statement coming from you, buddy! :-\"
> 
> A wise man is careful that his mouth isn't writing a check his ass can't cash.


I am not worried about cashing this check Susan. I already have the money from this check spent. I have spent 25 years with these dogs.......no one else has even seen one of them. Besides.....this isn't the first challenge and I have never lost one yet......:wink: I just realized, on one of those challenges it was me going back to the nationals.....in Ohio of all places....that was to take my dogs back and run them against the best because, as they put it, talk was cheap. LOL What I really want to see is if I have to be a bonafide trainer that is supposed have experince and know what he is talking about for real, of if it is just a line that sounds good. I just don't think anyone has to be an expert to read a dog and understand what makes them tick.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I must have missed something. Which dog is the German dog and what's been mentioned about testing him? I know I haven't read every page of this thread, but I had some time to catch up while I'm sitting in Boston waiting for my flight to San Jose. I will certainly test the dog if we have the time and the desire ...I just don't remember hearing about that before.


Ariel, I have a 12 mo old DDR dale that has protection dogs up and down both sides of his pedigree. Dave was going to test him, but, not now. You can if you want to. Makes no difference to me but some people are curious about him.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Hill, I wouldn't know how to train the dogs to protect me. You can't train a dog to want to protect, just bite. Of course they won't bite Ariel, she isn't posing a threat to me. She is going to go around and video how friendly they are before this starts.


 Isn't that one in the same...A dog biting someone is protecting:-k:-k


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

No, it isn't the same. A dog that has it in them to protect doesn't require training. You can't train that desire to protect any more than you can train desire to hunt into a dog that doesn't possess it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

My GF is coming shortly and I have to get off of here, but, I want to leave you with a thought. Trainers work solely on their percpective as trainers. I work on natural instincts and always have. There is enough animosity surrounding this shindig tomorrow that the dogs will not miss the tension. It is going to key them up even more and they will be looking for the cause of that tension. When Dave comes in, they will know what it is and try to eliminate it. I may have fallen off a truck some time and somewhere.....but it wasn't yesterday.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Have been following this soapy thread with great interest.
I'll go on record saying that the dogs will bite.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My GF is coming shortly and I have to get off of here, but, I want to leave you with a thought. Trainers work solely on their percpective as trainers. I work on natural instincts and always have. There is enough animosity surrounding this shindig tomorrow that the dogs will not miss the tension. It is going to key them up even more and they will be looking for the cause of that tension. When Dave comes in, they will know what it is and try to eliminate it. I may have fallen off a truck some time and somewhere.....but it wasn't yesterday.


Role play you mean ?? Preparation ?? 

This test has no integrity for me. I do believe you get naturally protective dogs and still do, but I have come to the conclusion that Don talks through a hole in his head. I used to respect what he had to say.

If the dogs don't bite, I reckon Don should give up dogs !


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

who's there to be the adult if this thing gets outta hand


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

I bet that Dave would get bit if he smelled like wild boar.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My GF is coming shortly and I have to get off of here, but, I want to leave you with a thought. Trainers work solely on their percpective as trainers. I work on natural instincts and always have. There is enough animosity surrounding this shindig tomorrow that the dogs will not miss the tension. It is going to key them up even more and they will be looking for the cause of that tension. When Dave comes in, they will know what it is and try to eliminate it. I may have fallen off a truck some time and somewhere.....but it wasn't yesterday.


We're having tension. I thought it was sammiches. Damn. 

Leavin on a jet plane!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> who's there to be the adult if this thing gets outta hand


Me of course. I am the only one here that can handle the dogs.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

No matter what happens, I wouldn't be eating the sandwiches .

Don, you still have me on ignore ? :grin:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dwyras Brown said:


> I bet that Dave would get bit if he smelled like wild boar.


Mebbe i do. I tried to mask that smell with competition.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I think it's weird that Don is saying he won't shake Dave's hand. If I allow somebody onto my property, I don't have to like everything about them...but if I'm allowing them onto my property, then a handshake is just another way of welcoming them. If I had so much against them, they wouldn't be allowed onto the property...no matter what the reason.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don as per our agreement the Release of Liability that was communicated via email is posted below:

*From Dave -* 

Nicole.

Is this the one you wanted? I agree to the terms

Dave Colborn
www.aimhighk9.com


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Release of Liability - final for review and approval
(Dave)
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, September 08, 2011 1:58 pm
To: "Nicole Stark" <[email protected]>

Looks good


Also, Ariel can give don pointers first hand about lifting dogs off prior to the test since she'll be there. Should be the same for a hog and a man, but just to make sure if it's needed.

Thanks for putting this together Nicole. On to scenarios. 




Dave Colborn
www.aimhighk9.com


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Release of Liability - final for review and approval (Dave)
From: Nicole Stark <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, September 08, 2011 1:11 pm
To: [email protected]
Cc: Nicole Stark <[email protected]>

Below is the email excerpts concerning the release of liability for you. Don sent it to me last night and I added something he wanted about the suit and sent it back for his approval which is what you see at the bottom. Please review it and if you agree to the terms as stated then reply to this email (keeping it intact). 

Nicole


Begin forwarded message:

From: Nicole Stark <[email protected]>
Date: September 8, 2011 5:48:58 AM GMT-08:00
To: Don Turnipseed <[email protected]>
Subject: Release of Liability

Don, 

Here is the release of liability you sent me for Dave. I am sending it in a separate email for your approval. Once I have that. I will pass this along to Dave along with your agreement to the statement I sent last night.

Release of liability

I, Dave Colborn, willingly accept all liability in case of personal injury to myself testing the dogs owned by Don Turnipseed. I, Dave Colborn, consider my self a professional dog trainer, and volunteered to test these dogs. It has been explained to me these are not trained protection dogs. I accept ALL risk of possible injury and will hold NO ONE accountable but myself. I also agree to wearing the appropriate and complete (top and bottom) protective training suit during this evaluation.




On Sep 8, 2011, at 7:52 AM, Don Turnipseed wrote:

That's good Nicole

Don Turnipseed
North Fork, Ca
http://www.huntingairedales.com


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nicole is this for real, an actual liability legal thingy for 2 guys proving a point stemming from a internet challenge; 

i can't believe the legal doc is serious. 

genuine question is it real???/

man america is screwed if this what has become for normal folks to interact with each other.


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## Doug Whittemore (Aug 29, 2011)

His dog will not bite head on, period. Nip when Daves back is turned? Perhaps.

Fight a man? Not a Chance in Hell.

Posters here saying otherwise, do not know dogs very well.



Good luck to all, I hope it is fun, educational, and worth the trip for Dave. 

It takes alot for a man to travel around the country to prove a point, and I respect him for that.

Make sure to drink a beer afterwards for me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> I think it's weird that Don is saying he won't shake Dave's hand. If I allow somebody onto my property, I don't have to like everything about them...but if I'm allowing them onto my property, then a handshake is just another way of welcoming them. If I had so much against them, they wouldn't be allowed onto the property...no matter what the reason.


You may find it wierd Skip because you look at it as welcoming someone on your property. I won't shake anyones hand I am not genuinely glad to meet because, what do you say???? Glad to meet you Dave!!!! smile smile look sincere. That is bullshit and it isn't me. Best to look at it like a business deal.....do it because it is there to be done.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Don you are one straight down the line kind of guy. i like that.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL I'll take the chance to prove a point. LOL They won't bite me....never happen. I am their god remember. :razz:


 
gods have been killed even the almighty Achilles...not sure if any have been bitten....


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> I think it's weird that Don is saying he won't shake Dave's hand. If I allow somebody onto my property, I don't have to like everything about them...but if I'm allowing them onto my property, then a handshake is just another way of welcoming them. If I had so much against them, they wouldn't be allowed onto the property...no matter what the reason.


The handshake is a way of saying a form of agreeance, whether it is business or personal. Don's just being a dick and or just having difficulty dealing with what is about to happen.

This is prolly one of the reasons I am on ignore...kinda straight down the line! WTF Don, try posting in conflict free zone, you've done it before after all ha ha


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

It does look like they might not be having Thanksgiving dinner together doesn't it?#-o


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## Doug Whittemore (Aug 29, 2011)

maggie fraser said:


> The handshake is a way of saying a form of agreeance, whether it is business or personal. Don's just being a dick and or just having difficulty dealing with what is about to happen.


+1


I just hope I dont have to read another 49 pages of why his dogs dont bite.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So what's the soundtrack of this going to be? For the stuff leading up to, I vote for: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyggY_R3jU8

For the actual test, I vote for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ

Everything's funny with that one. :wink:


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

I think this should be played when Dave and Don meet....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnbAOXtFJyM


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

You folks are gettin a bit deep on the theme music. I vouch we go for this....

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2b1a0_village-people-ymca-version-origina_music


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Doug & Maren yr just not taking this seriously


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Europe's The Final Countdown is one of my favorite 80s hairband guilty pleasure songs. Whaddya mean I'm not taking it seriously? ;-)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Whittemore said:


> .... And base this on 20+ years dog experience.



Of which a tad more detail should be added to your bio. There have been multiple requests (including a PM) from more than one mod. 

Thanks.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/hello-21625/#post296452


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And back to .....



Peter Cavallaro said:


> Doug & Maren yr just not taking this seriously





Maren Bell Jones said:


> Europe's The Final Countdown is one of my favorite 80s hairband guilty pleasure songs. Whaddya mean I'm not taking it seriously? ;-)



..... or whatever the topic is now. :lol:


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Of which a tad more detail should be added to your bio. There have been multiple requests (including a PM) from more than one mod.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/hello-21625/#post296452


Is Mr Doug W a reincarnation of another kindred spirit?


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Europe's The Final Countdown is one of my favorite 80s hairband guilty pleasure songs. ;-)


It is gay !!


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Doug & Maren yr just not taking this seriously



Well I was going to suggest Motley Crue Wildside but I thought that would be too much for good OLD Don....


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And back to .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know what your topic is but I'm thinking about my Thanksgiving menu!

That's as good a topic as any.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Well I was going to suggest Motley Crue Wildside but I thought that would be too much for good OLD Don....


Metallica? For whom the bell tolls?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

yeah Doug W just post yr bio already, with 20+ years exp. u be able to get out a simple paragraph, 

what up bro?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

look we can skimp on the music but not to have hot ring-card girls between rounds is just poor form.


err nicole and ariel??


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Will we be getting video in between scenarios one and two, complete with intermission ?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, if we're going with 80s hairband songs, this discussion kind of ties in with these two...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M60rLoCbbo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJChh7ghGnE&feature=related


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Metallica? For whom the bell tolls?


 
Dave I think this would best suit Don :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLXQltR7vUQ&feature=related


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well, if we're going with 80s hairband songs, this discussion kind of ties in with these two...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M60rLoCbbo
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJChh7ghGnE&feature=related


 
Ratt would be good...


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> Dave I think this would best suit Don :lol:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLXQltR7vUQ&feature=related


Doug, that has to be your finest moment on WDF :lol:.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Doug, that has to be your finest moment on WDF :lol:.


 
I never thought I would make it....


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ennio Morricone is a genius. Just play the whole theme to Il Buono, Il Brutto, Il Cattivo. But who's the good, the bad, or the ugly in this case? :-k :wink:  O
*
*


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> I never thought I would make it....


Well, it has my vote...cracking tune ! :grin:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You may find it wierd Skip because you look at it as welcoming someone on your property. I won't shake anyones hand I am not genuinely glad to meet because, what do you say???? Glad to meet you Dave!!!! smile smile look sincere. That is bullshit and it isn't me. Best to look at it like a business deal.....do it because it is there to be done.


 

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/


And your point is what ?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Dave I think this would best suit Don :lol:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLXQltR7vUQ&feature=related


FYI everyone on the plane seemed to like it.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> who's there to be the adult if this thing gets outta hand


Ariel ;-)


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> And your point is what ?


thought it was obvious - even people not on the best of terms can be polite


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> thought it was obvious - even people not on the best of terms can be polite


Oh ok, gotcha. Wasn't obvious, I was waiting on a punch line.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"who's there to be the adult if this thing gets outta hand"_



Thomas Barriano said:


> Ariel ;-)




:lol:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oooh, another good one (and a homage to Morricone)

http://youtu.be/RSIET_P9Ckk


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Of which a tad more detail should be added to your bio. There have been multiple requests (including a PM) from more than one mod.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/hello-21625/#post296452


I do believe he is registered here as Don Rumsfeld Connie. AKA Bill Wankie. The guy that was going to sue everyone. He always shows up. He has more names than he can use.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I do believe he is registered here as Don Rumsfeld Connie. AKA Bill Wankie. The guy that was going to sue everyone. He always shows up. He has more names than he can use.


Why are you bothered about him when you have me Don :-D? Grass !!!


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Oh ok, gotcha. Wasn't obvious, I was waiting on a punch line.


see maggie even you get things...eventually, even after all that acid you dropped in the 60's #-o



i guess the other conclusion you could draw from the link is "and see how ell that little excahnge ended" but i'm not pre-empting anything jus sayin


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

When someone is on ignore, does a post number show up like the ignorer knows a post has been made by the ignored or that the the ignored's post just doesn't register ? pmsl


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> When someone is on ignore, does a post number show up like the ignorer knows a post has been made by the ignored or that the the ignored's post just doesn't register ? pmsl


 

dunno but i don't register your post ???


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> see maggie even you get things...eventually, even after all that acid you dropped in the 60's #-o
> 
> 
> 
> i guess the other conclusion you could draw from the link is "and see how ell that little excahnge ended" but i'm not pre-empting anything jus sayin


I wasn't dropping acid in the sixties, I may have started young, but I didn't start that young #-o.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> dunno but i don't register your post ???


No comprendez you mean ??


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

When does the fight start again ? I have to go to bed now.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> No comprendez you mean ??


 
leave it


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> leave it


leave what ?

I got it you know


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> leave what ?
> 
> I got it you know


 
oi, i only got a small brain don't mess with it , thought you was going to bed.

sweet dreams


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> When someone is on ignore, does a post number show up like the ignorer knows a post has been made by the ignored or that the the ignored's post just doesn't register ? pmsl


It shows up as a post, but you only see a little colored bar with the persons name and post number, and a message that you aren't seeing the post because the person is on ignore. Doesn't show the content. But there is a link on the right that you can click on to expand that individual post if they really want to read it.

And of course anything that is quoted can be read, assuming the person doing the quoting isn't also on ignore.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Half way. Lay ova!!!


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Less than 15 hrs to go. :razz:


----------



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i hope there is more than one person videoing it, incase there is video taping problems


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

do ya think we would see it using google earth??

maybe we could email Mr Google to re-direct a satellite for an hour or so, pretty important wotld event.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> look we can skimp on the music but not to have hot ring-card girls between rounds is just poor form.
> 
> 
> err nicole and ariel??


Unfortunately, I did not pack proper ring-card girl attire. For some reason, I don't think cargo pants and boots would have the same effect.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

let me be the sole judge of that - i gotta contibute something to this shindig

can u follow simple instructions over the net on how to trim cargo pants with a penknife

have a webcam

err me thinks i should shut up


----------



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Just a forewarning ...I have never edited or added music to a video. So, if anyone wants theme music and cool effects, I'm gonna need some assistance ...or some time to figure it out.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Just a forewarning ...I have never edited or added music to a video. So, if anyone wants theme music and cool effects, I'm gonna need some assistance ...or some time to figure it out.


Actually for this video I think straight out of the camera would be the best, so people can see and hear what is going on.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually for this video I think straight out of the camera would be the best, so people can see and hear what is going on.


That's kind of what I prefer anyway. I'll post it without music or editing and if someone wants to improve upon that, they can just let me know.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

So it begins ...


----------



## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

Here we go! im interested in seeing what happens ... some of you guys/gals are taking this way to serious! is this not supposed to be fun and educational? either way ... have fun guys, and of course safety first!


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

My day started like this. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcs6bjjtdRk


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Ariel...what time is kick off??


----------



## michael carroll (Jan 19, 2009)

Just my opinion, but I think any bite on Dave whether it's a nip or a full mouth bite shows the dogs desire to protect Don. If the dog has no training the suit bite and lack of damage might make the dog rethink his actions. I think the feel of flesh, the taste of blood and distressed prey sounds boosts the dogs confidence in a real life fight.No offence to Don but I would also like to see pictures or video of a face bite on a bear.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

After seeing the picture that Ariel posted of Dave with the bite jacket. Maybe a face bite would be an improvement?

Just messin with ya Dave


----------



## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> My day started like this.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcs6bjjtdRk




lol


----------



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Well, it seems like our ETA might be somewhere around 11:00 am. We're following Don's directions but put North Fork in the GPS just to get an idea of how far out we are. I don't have the best time management skills, but we actually didn't leave too late. Hopefully Don won't lose his mind because we're running a bit late. I just filmed a little pre-test interview with Dave and we're looking forward to seeing what happens.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

9:20 by my clock.

And for those that want to see face bites on bears and hogs, you will have to use your own dogs because that is not the time to be taking pictures with my dogs at the working end of a bear. The last time it happend, there were no pictures and the dog was still laid up for 3 mo. Of course, you will never get your dogs to do it so you will just have to imagine it. I have had several people wanting to take pictures with their rotties and such with a dead bear or hog on the back of the truck. Three men and a bunch of boys couldn't have gottent those dogs withing camera range of even a dead bear. Got that tee shirt. :grin:


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Damned., I hope the dogs don't mind a late breakfast. I promised them Dave ala carte. Ariel, call when you get close 559-474-4422. I will direct you from where you are at.


----------



## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

alright its almost here. Good luck to both of you.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

On second thought, don't worry about the time, my hooney is here and we will find something to do with this video camera. :razz:


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> On second thought, don't worry about the time, my hooney is here and we will find something to do with this video camera. :razz:


 
Yeah she could videotape you in your rocking chair...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Yeah she could videotape you in your rocking chair...


Don't laugh Doug, the thing that is worring me the most is actually the falling down part of the scenario in the yard. May need someone to help me up! ROTGLMAO


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't laugh Doug, the thing that is worring me the most is actually the falling down part of the scenario in the yard. May need someone to help me up! ROTGLMAO


 
Do not act like a wounded animal when you hit the ground Don.... :mrgreen:


----------



## Jamie King (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm really hoping nobody's face gets bitten off like Travis the chimp did to that lady


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ariel, do you guys have a laptop and mobile dongle for hooking up to the internet ?


----------



## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

michael carroll said:


> Just my opinion, but I think any bite on Dave whether it's a nip or a full mouth bite shows the dogs desire to protect Don. If the dog has no training the suit bite and lack of damage might make the dog rethink his actions. I think the feel of flesh, the taste of blood and distressed prey sounds boosts the dogs confidence in a real life fight.


I agree with this. If the dog puts it mouth on dave in anyway then to me they tried to portect.


----------



## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Kristi Siggers said:


> I agree with this. If the dog puts it mouth on dave in anyway then to me they tried to portect.


That is a valid opinion. I don't share it. I don't believe that most dogs that bite are displaying their undying loyalty to their owners. I think most are looking for a way out of a scary situation, and when it doesn't work they usually started singing a different tune. If the dog gives Dave a nip and breaks with no response or pressure from dave, I wont call that protection. Just my opinion.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

We're here. Suiting up. 

Handshakes out of the way. 

It's showtime!


----------



## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> We're here. Suiting up.
> 
> Handshakes out of the way.
> 
> It's showtime!





Yes!


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

This is cosy. Who has the popcorn ?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> This is cosy. Who has the popcorn ?


Don has it and i'm going to get it from him and his airedales.


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Hope you take advantage of your time on 'dale island. 

Don if I were you I'd say f*ck it and evaluate as many of your dogs as Dave can take. Examining the differences could end up being more interesting than this one test.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don has it and i'm going to get it from him and his airedales.


Go get 'em !


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> That is a valid opinion. I don't share it. I don't believe that most dogs that bite are displaying their undying loyalty to their owners. I think most are looking for a way out of a scary situation, and when it doesn't work they usually started singing a different tune. If the dog gives Dave a nip and breaks with no response or pressure from dave, I wont call that protection. Just my opinion.


Agreed! To me a nip is more of a go away, your scaring me. 
My heart is with the terriers. I've seen many of the little guys that will and have willingly bit a human (for many different reasons) but I also believe the Dales are a little less...... psycho then the little bassids are.
I've said in the past that my son had to literally pry our JRT off the quad of one of his buddies that was acting like an ass. The dog just didn't like people! In the ground he was a baying dog. Never made contact with the quarry. My hardest dog in the ground was a Border terrier that wouldn't bite a human to save his life. Go figure!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I want to see the choke offs, that Don has predicted...


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I wanna hear everyone is ok first.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I've said in the past that my son had to literally pry our JRT off the quad of one of his buddies that was acting like an ass. The dog just didn't like people! In the ground he was a baying dog. Never made contact with the quarry. My hardest dog in the ground was a Border terrier that wouldn't bite a human to save his life. Go figure!


This is where I think the assumption that because a dog is "game" on animals it will be equally "game" on humans fall short. I've seen Am Bulldogs that would take on a boar, sustaining quite a bit of damage in the process, that did not want to do bitework. Or BC's that will take on a bull, getting slammed into fencing, the ground, etc but would never dream of biting a human, and was actually kind of timid/shy with humans. Or look at Pit Bulls ...

And the reverse is true, if hardness on humans transferred directly to everything, people would be out there buying DS, Mal, GSD, etc for catch dogs, bear dogs, etc. 

Sure some dogs can do both, but working well on one, just doesn't immediately transfer to the other.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I wanna hear everyone is ok first.


Right...I just got back from PSA training a few minutes ago and I have to drive to the other side of the state shortly for dock diving, so can't stick around here too long. It looks like it's been over an hour since anyone reported in. Hmmm....


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I wanna hear everyone is ok first.


Of course, but that worry is not worth it. Unless someone breaks an ankle or something, I am thinking everyone will be fine..


----------



## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Right...I just got back from PSA training a few minutes ago and I have to drive to the other side of the state shortly for dock diving, so can't stick around here too long. It looks like it's been over an hour since anyone reported in. Hmmm....


 
I've got a truck in pieces, a dirty kitchen from brewing beer late last night, my dogs bouncing off the walls needing to get out and work, my wife giving me "The Look", and here I am...waiting.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Of course, but that worry is not worth it. Unless someone breaks an ankle or something, I am thinking everyone will be fine..


I was hoping we were going to hear at least something between scenarios...

Unless they are doing it deliberately, knowing we are here...waiting....and drinking......

Saturday night here you know.


----------



## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I was hoping we were going to hear at least something between scenarios...
> 
> Unless they are doing it deliberately, knowing we are here...waiting....and drinking......
> 
> Saturday night here you know.


 
Whats on tap?


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Brian McQuain said:


> Whats on tap?


Vin rouge.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ok Ok, Don's number is on this thread, someone going to give them a call ? I would do it but I'm on ignore :-D.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This is where I think the assumption that because a dog is "game" on animals it will be equally "game" on humans fall short. I've seen Am Bulldogs that would take on a boar, sustaining quite a bit of damage in the process, that did not want to do bitework. Or BC's that will take on a bull, getting slammed into fencing, the ground, etc but would never dream of biting a human, and was actually kind of timid/shy with humans. Or look at Pit Bulls ...
> 
> And the reverse is true, if hardness on humans transferred directly to everything, people would be out there buying DS, Mal, GSD, etc for catch dogs, bear dogs, etc.
> 
> Sure some dogs can do both, but working well on one, just doesn't immediately transfer to the other.



Exactly! I've seen many, many working terriers over the years that prove that.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Exactly! I've seen many, many working terriers over the years that prove that.


I haven't seen that many working terriers, but I've seen a couple (jrts), that needed a good kicking to get them off your body parts....fortunately not mine.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

ER VA hospital.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Any detail ?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> ER VA hospital.


Cmon now, you can't leave us hanging like that!


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> ER VA hospital.


Wow, hope everything is okay man.


----------



## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> ER VA hospital.


 I hope your ok! What happened?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Dang it, I have to leave for a trial 2 hours away like now! :-( Hope you're all okay...


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> ER VA hospital.


C'mon, seriously?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> ER VA hospital.


Who got bit, Dave, Don, Ariel or the GF?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sorry, supposed to be an immediate follow up of jk. Not meant in poor taste. All is good here


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Sorry, supposed to be an immediate follow up of jk. Not meant in poor taste. All is good here


](*,) go sit in the corner young man! :lol: :lol:


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

What is jk supposed to be?

Never mind I'm slow today.


----------



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> What is jk supposed to be?


 just kidding


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> What is jk supposed to be?


Just Kidding


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

suspense is a good thing...I was thinking at least he has enough fingers left to post something


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Yeah, I've also been looking out to see if Don comes up as a banned user .


----------



## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

im wearing out my refresh button....better than TV


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Tyree Johnson said:


> im wearing out my refresh button....better than TV


Would be if we were getting some kind of picture...

Gettin impatient


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I personally am hoping they wait and make a nice video of it, 4-5 camera angles, slow mo...freeze frame and everything all set to the western song that was posted on here...I can wait...


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I personally am hoping they wait and make a nice video of it, 4-5 camera angles, slow mo...freeze frame and everything all set to the western song that was posted on here...I can wait...


Yeah, that would be cool, reckon I could be snottered by then though and not make head nor tail of anything :-s.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Yeah, that would be cool, reckon I could be snottered by then though and not make head nor tail of anything :-s.



Maggie,
"STEP AWAY FROM THE GLASS"!!!
You know your gonna be pissed if you miss this in it's first exposure.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Tyree Johnson said:


> im wearing out my refresh button....better than TV


Must not be watching the same game I am. ha ha

DFrost


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Maggie,
> "STEP AWAY FROM THE GLASS"!!!
> You know your gonna be pissed if you miss this in it's first exposure.


Sound advice from a wise man ! They might torment us though...keep us waiting and waiting...I've been on here for FOUR hours !!! Haven't had dinner or my evening's entertainment yet, dog needs to do, cat needs to do, dinner needs cookin, car needs parkin....


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Yeah, that would be cool, reckon I could be snottered by then though and not make head nor tail of anything :-s.


 
But your FUN when snottered!


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The silence is deafening. I'm 100% sure that Don's dogs didn't even leave the porch.

Let that be a lesson to you guys. Remember who thought the dogs would bite.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> But your FUN when snottered!


If this drags out for much loinger, I may be A LOTTA FUN tonight !


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> If this drags out for much loinger, I may be A LOTTA FUN tonight !



:-o DAMN! Looks like a loooong night for the mods. :lol: 
I'm only on this long in the afternoon to see the results. :lol: :lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> :-o DAMN! Looks like a loooong night for the mods. :lol:
> I'm only on this long in the afternoon to see the results. :lol: :lol:


 
Have a drink Bob, help take the weight off :-D.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Have a drink Bob, help take the weight off :-D.


Just finished a Pepsi! :-D \\/
Now I'm gonna sit back and wait for the "real" folks to post! :wink:


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> If this drags out for much loinger, I may be A LOTTA FUN tonight !


 
Don't be drunk texting me again.....


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## Matt Akenhead (Dec 13, 2009)

can I place a bet for no bite.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Looks like we aren't even close to "most users ever on line".


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

what was the event surrounding the most users ever on line anyone know?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i say the web-site will crash


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> We're here. Suiting up.
> 
> Handshakes out of the way.
> 
> It's showtime!


 
you shook hands - cool


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Nothin cookin here yet ??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

did the dogs break the internet??


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gonna talk to the listeners for a bit Dave ?

Any indication of any kind of time frame ?

Hello Hello


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

who gotta police scanner


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUt7qmSvxLI


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Pete and his boys getting ready for the video to be posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhP0tOm6yt0&feature=related


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> Pete and his boys getting ready for the video to be posted
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhP0tOm6yt0&feature=related


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


>


lmao!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

LMAO funny sh!t


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> We're here. Suiting up.
> 
> Handshakes out of the way.
> 
> It's showtime!


 
AND here we sits 4+ hours later!! I think the jokes on us fools who keep checking in.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

What is all the uproar. Guess I will stick to using a .45 for protection. [-( [-( [-(

Dave and Ariel left a few minutes ago. It was a good time. Would have been better if things went the way I planned.....they didn't.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i'm getting no updates here, but the electrickery has further to travel. small fav to ask can ariel text the results to someone on the east coast (doug u in mass. right) who can relay it maggers then bounce it over to netehrlands and onto japan (ric) then to the phillipnes (Ol) then tappatalk it to my mob 04100 - thisisgay cheers


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What is all the uproar. Guess I will stick to using a .45 for protection. [-( [-( [-(


Scrambled or easy over ?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Is it time to go home yet ?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i'm getting no updates here, but the electrickery has further to travel. small fav to ask can ariel text the results to someone on the east coast (doug u in mass. right) who can relay it maggers then bounce it over to netehrlands and onto japan (ric) then to the phillipnes (Ol) then tappatalk it to my mob 04100 - thisisgay cheers


 
Are you on 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqZKW1WEVlM&feature=related


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What is all the uproar. Guess I will stick to using a .45 for protection. [-( [-( [-(
> 
> Dave and Ariel left a few minutes ago. It was a good time. Would have been better if things went the way I planned.....they didn't.


 
Don't be too hard on your dogs Don they were not bred for personal protection or trained for it...


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What is all the uproar. Guess I will stick to using a .45 for protection. [-( [-( [-(
> 
> Dave and Ariel left a few minutes ago. It was a good time. Would have been better if things went the way I planned.....they didn't.


At least you were man enough to let them be tested, you didn't have to let them come to your house. 

Along with everyone else, I'll be curious to see exactly how they reacted (if they put on a big show at first or what) throughout the scenarios. 

No shame in the outcome to those of us who remember why you breed these animals.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ok Folks THE END

Thankyou and Goodnight


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> Are you on
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqZKW1WEVlM&feature=related


 
that guy is hillarious is he like a pro comedian or something - i watched his other vids while i was there, totally funny.

thanks for the link


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Well done for stepping up to the plate Don. 

On the bye, a .45 is always more reliable than most anything or body.

I'm with Dave M. how did the dogs react? Did they shy as I predicted or run? Or what?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> that guy is hillarious is he like a pro comedian or something - i watched his other vids while i was there, totally funny.
> 
> thanks for the link


 
I figured you might like him ...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

yeah i never laughed like that in ages - what else u got, the gayTV thing was priceless too.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> Well done for stepping up to the plate Don.
> 
> On the bye, a .45 is always more reliable than most anything or body.
> 
> I'm with Dave M. how did the dogs react? Did they shy as I predicted or run? Or what?


Even the best PPD is only there to slow down the bad guy long enough to get to that .45.

Don, I have a schHIII GSD from nice working lines. Even with that I have no idea how well he'd protect me. It wasn't in his "sport" training. He's shown a great "threat" on a number of different occasions but that light yrs from protectiong me.
I took him to Jerry L's get together last year. First time ever he saw a suit as opposed to a sleeve and he was confused as hell. Still the best dog I've ever had for many different reasons BUT, I've never done any "protection" work with him.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> yeah i never laughed like that in ages - what else u got, the gayTV thing was priceless too.


A little more serious and probably one of their best scenes of the series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9oY7zpan18&feature=related


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

too real


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Here you go Pete LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8yYgTK7-jc&feature=related


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

is all this stuff on television - i don't own one so never know what going on


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

The comedian has had a tv show Ali G and couple of movies; Borat and Bruno.

The Sopranos was a series on cable tv.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> Here you go Pete LOL!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8yYgTK7-jc&feature=related


 

hahaha too funny - the nazi salute to the marines - too funny 

best antidote for full metal jacket


----------



## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

doug zaga said:


> here you go pete lol!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8yygtk7-jc&feature=related




hahahahahah


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> Well done for stepping up to the plate Don.
> 
> On the bye, a .45 is always more reliable than most anything or body.
> 
> I'm with Dave M. how did the dogs react? Did they shy as I predicted or run? Or what?


The dogs avoided him completley Randy. I am going to cull both of them. LOL. I guess I should keep the challenges to the arena they are bred for. We did have a good day, It was fun. We liked both Dave and Ariel. Tested a few other dogs and the only one that liked the rag was a 5 mo old female, Jackie, because she wasn't so set in her ways I quess. My GF isn't finshed consoling me just yet so this will have to wait until after she goes home. I do believe there is a bright side to everything. :razz:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Akenhead said:


> can I place a bet for no bite.


Sorry line was closed at post time...


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The dogs avoided him completley Randy. I am going to cull both of them. LOL. I guess I should keep the challenges to the arena they are bred for. We did have a good day, It was fun. We liked both Dave and Ariel. Tested a few other dogs and the only one that liked the rag was a 5 mo old female, Jackie, because she wasn't so set in her ways I quess. My GF isn't finshed consoling me just yet so this will have to wait until after she goes home. I do believe there is a bright side to everything. :razz:


No one was hurt, no one is mad, Don is being "consoled" ..... sounds to me like a success. 8)

Will there be any video of Jackie? 



PS
Avoiding him completely sounds like a smart-dog decision to me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maybe Jackie Connie....they will delete the rest hopefully. LOL Odin drove my nuts into the car seat going out the drivers window. And that is 105lbs of driving force into the seat. GF is having trouble consoling me after that!....but we are going to give it another shot....bye.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The dogs avoided him completley Randy. I am going to cull both of them. LOL.


Hahaha


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maybe Jackie Connie....they will delete the rest hopefully. LOL


That would be a let down...

I am sure everyone wants to know and see what was done.

Anyone that came down would most likely do things differently, I would like to see what was done..


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Plus a video would be a great reference point for future "I don't have to train, I know my dog will protect me" posters 

I'm a little surprised I thought maybe possibly at least a snap/ quick bite, something.... But that was going by your description of the dogs being super confident and dominate and aggressors in the past. Video would help tell the story better...

I'm not surprised in anyone thinking animal work has anything to do with man work however... No correlation whatsoever.

Good for you don for stepping up regardless... Dogs are nothing less than honest, they are what they are... Yours are hunting dogs, nothing wrong with that at all. I bet most dogs without training would do the same.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The dogs avoided him completley Randy. I am going to cull both of them. LOL. I guess I should keep the challenges to the arena they are bred for. We did have a good day, It was fun. We liked both Dave and Ariel. Tested a few other dogs and the only one that liked the rag was a 5 mo old female, Jackie, because she wasn't so set in her ways I quess. My GF isn't finshed consoling me just yet so this will have to wait until after she goes home. I do believe there is a bright side to everything. :razz:


 still, tons of respect for doing what all the other non-working "protection" dog people would never do.... thats what the smart money was on, I remember years ago AB breeders saying "If my dogs will shake and rattle with a 400 lb boar, just imagine what they would do with a burglar" like someone mentioned, even mals from working lines would be of questionable luck, its like the old days of testing when they would charge a completely raw/green dog while firing a gun/blanks, not many are going to respond with ferocity dont cull them, use them for hunting, thats like culling a birdog or bloodhunt because it wouldnt protect (a trait they were not bred and trained for)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> Plus a video would be a great reference point for future "I don't have to train, I know my dog will protect me" posters
> 
> I'm a little surprised I thought maybe possibly at least a snap/ quick bite, something.... But that was going by your description of the dogs being super confident and dominate and aggressors in the past. Video would help tell the story better...
> 
> ...


It would be interesting to see what was done...The dogs could be solid, but just real friendly with no reason to think to bite someone...or they could have avoided Dave, or not protected Don, because of the whacks on the head, and Koehler 

Just blame it on Koehler...people will get behind that...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> It would be interesting to see what was done...The dogs could be solid, but just real friendly with no reason to think to bite someone...or they could have avoided Dave, or not protected Don, because of the whacks on the head, and Koehler
> 
> Just blame it on Koehler...people will get behind that...


:lol:

I don't think so. I think Tracey hit it:
_
"Yours are hunting dogs, nothing wrong with that at all. I bet most dogs without training would do the same."_


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don.

Thanks to you and Linda for having us out today. The sandwiches were great. Cantaloupe was to die for.

I know it didn't go the way you wanted it to, but at least you got to see it first hand. Not many other people would have done that or let it be recorded. If I was still a drinker, I'd still be on your porch right now, knocking them back with you.

There are a couple I'd like to see, Griff and Jackie, after a little work. Don't know if you'll get it done or not, but those were my two favorites. 

I don't think we'll agree on everything, but I am glad to have met someone who stands up for what he believes in like you do. And again, the cantaloupes were great. 

If you could delete all the crap I wrote on your airedale board, I would be grateful.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

_"Yours are hunting dogs, nothing wrong with that at all. I bet most dogs without training would do the same."_ Today 08:30 PM: end quote

That's why it was a safe bet from the beginning.
It would though be an interesting exercise to try and direct that hunter/killer instinct Don has worked so hard for toward a man......and CONTROL IT.

It's quite the balancing act. 
Kinda fun too, in kinda warped way.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

You know, y'all don't have to be gentle with me. I wouldn't have been if it went the other way LOL. I have seen the dogs go after people in real situations. I controlled it with them. The dogs tested have never shown people aggression at all, but, I figured they would rise to the challenge. They didn't. GF just left so I don't care. :razz: It was an enlightning day for me regardless. From watching Jackie, they need some work from the get go for people. One thing I noticed, as did Dave and Ariel, is the dogs, including Griff, were more interested in meeting the new people than the rag. Jackie couldnt concentrate on the rage until she went over and got to meet Dave. Once that was done, the rag was interesting. Will have to see what Ariel and Dave saw.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don no one should be berating you... you had the courage to try and that is more important. Just hopefully you and Dave hugged and you two made friends.... life is about human connections!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i would still like to to see the video , even though those " game " dogs did nothing, just having fun Don,, 
but ya i would like to see what exactly happened


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kudos for the effort and willingness to allow the dogs to be tested.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> i would still like to to see the video , even though those " game " dogs did nothing, just having fun Don,,
> but ya i would like to see what exactly happened


They totally avoided Dave. Would have done better if Dave was in a pig suit. They both acted like what the Fk is this? What can I say?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You know, y'all don't have to be gentle with me. I wouldn't have been if it went the other way LOL. I have seen the dogs go after people in real situations. I controlled it with them. The dogs tested have never shown people aggression at all, but, I figured they would rise to the challenge. They didn't. GF just left so I don't care. :razz: It was an enlightning day for me regardless. From watching Jackie, they need some work from the get go for people. One thing I noticed, as did Dave and Ariel, is the dogs, including Griff, were more interested in meeting the new people than the rag. Jackie couldnt concentrate on the rage until she went over and got to meet Dave. Once that was done, the rag was interesting. Will have to see what Ariel and Dave saw.


Probably, there was no challenge for the dog's to rise to. Dave and you were fighting. There was no reason for the dogs to take it personally, unless it went down differently...

I imagine some of your dogs might respond well if you ever decide to crack into them a little and see what would happen if they did take things personally with a person. I wouldn't think they would go nuts for a rag..

I just hope to see the video...


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don.
> 
> Thanks to you and Linda for having us out today. The sandwiches were great. Cantaloupe was to die for.
> 
> ...


 I think you both are showing a lot of class. This has been really very interesting. Now I have another question. Do you think these dogs could be trained to protect Don? Could the fact that he has been very strict about his dogs never showing aggression towards people have been a factor? This is the type of thing that I always wonder about, I am glad you guys took the time to do this test.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Would have done better if Dave was in a pig suit.


OK, this made me laugh loud enough to bring all the dogs in here to stare at me. :lol: :lol:


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

mike finn said:


> I think you both are showing a lot of class. This has been really very interesting. Now I have another question. Do you think these dogs could be trained to protect Don? Could the fact that he has been very strict about his dogs never showing aggression towards people have been a factor? This is the type of thing that I always wonder about, I am glad you guys took the time to do this test.


I think it could be a huge factor, depending on the dogs. 

Just think if one of them was posted up in Chicago on a row house porch with the handler telling him "watcccchhh him" every time someone walked by, and patting him up, and then had kids break in the yard and throw rocks at the dog, or tease him with a stick at the fence everyday...

Or if an experienced trainer that was interested in that type of thing, had them.

A factor for me would be. 

Did Don's dog ever register a threat? That is unclear to me.

I would have had Dave let a few dogs know he meant business, and see how they reacted, onleash or posted up, if I was Don, because I would be interested to see if they would rise to the challenge.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> ... Dave and you were fighting. There was no reason for the dogs to take it personally..


This is a good way to put it into a nutshell. :smile: JMHO!

I agree with Randy and Doug and Mike and others: This was kinda fun, it was interesting, and just as *I* predicted (so I get all the wager money! :lol: ), WDF members proved to be gracious and generous.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> This is a good way to put it into a nutshell. :smile:
> 
> I agree with Randy and Doug and Mike and others: This was kinda fun, it was interesting, and just as *I* predicted (so I get all the wager money! :lol: ), WDF members proved to be gracious and generous.


mods are exempt from the proceeds. conflict of interest..


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

Drat i was hoping they would have least made a bluff charge. lol  But I'm glad you let this happen. And thank you to all who volunteered and put up money to make this happen.

I too would be intrested in the video if anyone would please post it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

mike finn said:


> I think you both are showing a lot of class. This has been really very interesting. Now I have another question. Do you think these dogs could be trained to protect Don? Could the fact that he has been very strict about his dogs never showing aggression towards people have been a factor? This is the type of thing that I always wonder about, I am glad you guys took the time to do this test.



Mile, Dave could answer this better than myself. Jennifer had Jager and once he killed a few things, she said he was really hard to fire up. Hopefully Griff will tame them down a bit.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ...they will delete the rest hopefully. LOL Odin drove my nuts into the car seat going out the drivers window.


How are you guys interpreting this? Sounds like a threat was registered to me... Maybe I am interpreting it wrong, but combined with not aggressing I read "going the opposite way". Someone correct please.


----------



## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Hill, I wouldn't know how to train the dogs to protect me. You can't train a dog to want to protect, just bite. Of course they won't bite Ariel, she isn't posing a threat to me. She is going to go around and video how friendly they are before this starts.


 That's what a protection dog is...A trained dog!!!!!

CAN WE SAY BYE BYE NOW !!!!!!\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> How are you guys interpreting this? Sounds like a threat was registered to me... Maybe I am interpreting it wrong, but combined with not aggressing I read "going the opposite way". Someone correct please.


I would not look at avoidance and flight as the same thing. Avoidance as a prelim to flight? Possibly.
It still boils down to hunting dogs outsider their comfort zone. Doesn't mean they couldn't do it with proper selection and training.


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> I would not look at avoidance and flight as the same thing. Avoidance as a prelim to flight? Possibly.


Not sure what you are getting at here. Aren't they exactly the same thing?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> Not sure what you are getting at here. Aren't they exactly the same thing?



In a working terrier avoidance is a dodge and duck way of avoiding damage from the quarry. They still will stay in the game (baying). 
Flight is getting out of the game altogether. 
Without seeing todays event I wont/cant say this was the case. Just what I know of with critter hunting dogs. 
Rarely will you see a good baying dog that will engage the quarry and rarely will you see a good catch dog do much baying. 
It's as much in the breeding as anything.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The dogs avoided Dave all the way Bob. Then Dave threw a piece of cheese to Titan and he was fine.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The dogs avoided Dave all the way Bob. Then Dave threw a piece of cheese to Titan and he was fine.



Recovery tells me a lot about a dog. 
Now we all want to know how they would handle bite training. :grin: :wink:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

test wasn't fair, y'all seen Dave's face - just kiddin. total respect to you both and Ariel/nicole for helping out. 

can we put a limit on the post-mortem, i mean how much can we generalise about the intial hypotheis from this test - not too much, but i'm not the expert here.


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I would not look at avoidance and flight as the same thing. Avoidance as a prelim to flight? Possibly.
> It still boils down to hunting dogs outsider their comfort zone. Doesn't mean they couldn't do it with proper selection and training.


My comment wasn't about flight or avoidance it was the recognition of a threat... Other posters were asking if they even saw a threat... So for either of your definitions of avoidance or flight, Id say yes!


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> can we put a limit on the post-mortem, i mean how much can we generalise about the intial hypotheis from this test - not too much, but i'm not the expert here.


Now that's funny ... On a thread 60 some pages BEFORE it even went down lol....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> My comment wasn't about flight or avoidance it was the recognition of a threat... Other posters were asking if they even saw a threat... So for either of your definitions of avoidance or flight, Id say yes!



I would agree that they did see a threat!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well, we have past 16,000 views. LOL


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Don BS aside hope yr travelling OK big fella, yr a proud possibly stubborn old coot, gotta hurt just a bit. just know that evryone here respects both of you as men of yr word/s - anyone with a problem either way can F themselves.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

tracey delin said:


> How are you guys interpreting this? Sounds like a threat was registered to me... Maybe I am interpreting it wrong, but combined with not aggressing I read "going the opposite way". Someone correct please.


That's how I'm reading it. As social as the dogs sound, if a threat wasn't registered there wouldn't be any reason for one to be heading the other direction, out the driver's side window.

I didn't think Titan would bite because of the options he had, but thought Odin might being in the vehicle, more confined, etc. might bring out some defense.

But I'm not surprised at the outcome, hopefully now we won't hear anymore how a dog who is hard on animals is automatically a BMF on humans to.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Pete, you might recall it was over abundance of words that got the proud and possibly stubborn old coot in trouble in the first place...

Curious how video progress is going, or at least a more detailed description. Should be interesting as I'd like to see how the scenarios were set up.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I would have thought tying/staking one of the dogs out on its own would be a natural thing to test


----------



## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

Great work by all parties to follow through with this. Both Dave and Don have shown a lot of class and Don is taking his lumps like a gentleman. Good on ya sir. Unfortunately, it went as predicted by most (me on the 12th post, where's my prize money? ; ) A cycling child, or an adult running away, or even acting defensive and fearful are an entirely different thing than a human threatening and not backing down. Time to go buy some shares in some munitions companies. Should be a lot of pet owners running out and buying some hollow points about now...

Oh, and a staked out dog isn't really relevant IMO. If flight is no longer an option, almost any dog will lash out as a last resort. They may flail at the end of the chain trying to get away but when unable to, most would try and at least nip a bad guy.

Looking forward to the video.

Grant


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Are people stunned by this outcome? Why? Have you never read any of The Seed's post about how he raises his dogs? He smacks'em. They know that they better not go into his kitchen. He thinks that compulsion based training is a good idea. He actively discouraged his dogs from acting aggressive to people. Why should they protect The Seed when he's the baddest mother on the block? Don's dogs might have the genetics, but the environment is not productive for creating a natural bad ass.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Are people stunned by this outcome? Why? Have you never read any of The Seed's post about how he raises his dogs? He smacks'em. They know that they better not go into his kitchen. He thinks that compulsion based training is a good idea. He actively discouraged his dogs from acting aggressive to people. Why should they protect The Seed when he's the baddest mother on the block? Don's dogs might have the genetics, but the environment is not productive for creating a natural bad ass.


 
I agree. I don't understand how it all went down but on several levels with this being orchestrated, and given how they are raised, I agree with Chris. As for a certain Sch III GSD, having had him at my feet and stop a guy cold with coming out of a down with fixed stare that I didn't like rushing toward me, no doubt, he'll protect. He wasn't thinking about the suit vs. sleeve game or himself. Defense of pack can/will override what a dog may even think of in terms of defense of himself. In other words, defense of pack can be stronger. Instinct vs. orchestration are two totally different things. Some dogs know when things are orchestrated. Some may have instinct but may question whether they have permission. There, theres the situation if god claims it, the dogs will let him have it. They're yard dogs raised in dog packs. Take a confident dog raised from puppyhood with that individual, then look at it from the defense of handler perspective. I don't believe a dog needs training to protect based on experiences with my own dogs. Sorry, but I can't believe that the bond/pack to the human is as strong with dogs raised in dog packs. 

T


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> Now that's funny ... On a thread 60 some pages BEFORE it even went down lol....





Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, we have past 16,000 views. LOL


OK that being said, how about use all stop posting unless you are Don or Dave with the play by play or a video. I'm tired of being a looky lou and digging through all this crapola:wink:, Oh yea congrats and kudos for Don being a mans man, Dave flying out there to be nice enough to test dogs for him.

Alright now time for me to go back into hibernation


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> OK that being said, how about use all stop posting unless you are Don or Dave with the play by play or a video. I'm tired of being a looky lou and digging through all this crapola:wink:, Oh yea congrats and kudos for Don being a mans man, Dave flying out there to be nice enough to test dogs for him.


+1 for video..

I want to see what happened..


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Have you never read any of *The Seed's* post about how he raises his dogs?


i feel umcomfortable with that phrase - i don't know why lol


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I agree. I don't understand how it all went down but on several levels with this being orchestrated, and given how they are raised, I agree with Chris. As for a certain Sch III GSD, having had him at my feet and stop a guy cold with coming out of a down with fixed stare that I didn't like rushing toward me, no doubt, he'll protect. He wasn't thinking about the suit vs. sleeve game or himself. Defense of pack can/will override what a dog may even think of in terms of defense of himself. In other words, defense of pack can be stronger. Instinct vs. orchestration are two totally different things. Some dogs know when things are orchestrated. Some may have instinct but may question whether they have permission. There, theres the situation if god claims it, the dogs will let him have it. They're yard dogs raised in dog packs. Take a confident dog raised from puppyhood with that individual, then look at it from the defense of handler perspective. I don't believe a dog needs training to protect based on experiences with my own dogs. Sorry, but I can't believe that the bond/pack to the human is as strong with dogs raised in dog packs.
> T


Yes I also tend to agree. I was thinking of an ACD I owned who was totally people friendly but she also knew instinctively if there was a real threat. I never had any luck if I orchestrated something, she just knew, but in the face of real danger several times she was totally serious about protecting me. She must have sensed that I was really afraid and that the the aggressor was a real danger, because she was a totally different dog. She wouldnt have been any good at protection sports, the situation had to be for real so she must have been sensing something from me.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes I also tend to agree. I was thinking of an ACD I owned who was totally people friendly but she also knew instinctively if there was a real threat. I never had any luck if I orchestrated something, she just knew, but in the face of real danger several times she was totally serious about protecting me. She must have sensed that I was really afraid and that the the aggressor was a real danger, because she was a totally different dog. She wouldnt have been any good at protection sports, the situation had to be for real so she must have been sensing something from me.


Yeah, that reminds me of a dog I had that could talk. He wouldn't do it if anyone else was around, only me. Sometimes we would talk politics. Sometimes he would just muse on theoretical physics and astronomy.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes I also tend to agree. I was thinking of an ACD I owned who was totally people friendly but she also knew instinctively if there was a real threat. I never had any luck if I orchestrated something, she just knew, but in the face of real danger several times she was totally serious about protecting me. She must have sensed that I was really afraid and that the the aggressor was a real danger, because she was a totally different dog. She wouldnt have been any good at protection sports, the situation had to be for real so she must have been sensing something from me.


A people friendly (ACD) automatic call distributor is not surprising as it is mechanical. God i hate acronyms. Meant to shorten conversations they often do the opposite. Oh, and sara, what charles said. Sort of like the invisible boy on "mystery men"


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> A people friendly (ACD) automatic call distributor is not surprising as it is mechanical. *God i hate acronyms*.


 
i had to google CAO tonight to understand another post.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> Yeah, that reminds me of a dog I had that could talk. He wouldn't do it if anyone else was around, only me. Sometimes we would talk politics. Sometimes he would just muse on theoretical physics and astronomy.


Oh you must be the guy who tried to sell me a talking dog. I knew better than to buy him because that dog was a liar.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Oh you must be the guy who tried to sell me a talking dog. I knew better than to buy him because that dog was a liar.


 
haha too funny - was he actualy lying or just sayin something you didn't want to hear, truth hurts sometimes lol


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Are people stunned by this outcome? Why? Have you never read any of The Seed's post about how he raises his dogs? He smacks'em. They know that they better not go into his kitchen. He thinks that compulsion based training is a good idea. He actively discouraged his dogs from acting aggressive to people. Why should they protect The Seed when he's the baddest mother on the block? Don's dogs might have the genetics, but the environment is not productive for creating a natural bad ass.


Gee Chrissy, even I can figure that was a bad approach for you to take. Looks to me like the dogs did exactly what they had been taught....which surprised me. And the dogs are bad asses Chrissy. They will tackle stuff your wouldn't get close to also....and not think much of it. That just wasn't what I wanted to see happen.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hey guys this thread's dead, stop mopin and get on over to the boz shep thread - bite fest 2 about to go down.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gee Chrissy, even I can figure that was a bad approach for you to take. Looks to me like the dogs did exactly what they had been taught....which surprised me. And the dogs are bad asses Chrissy. They will tackle stuff your wouldn't get close to also....and not think much of it. That just wasn't what I wanted to see happen.



Ok Don, will you give Dave permission to share some of the video? I would like to see if the dogs actually recognized the threat, if Dave got their attention and they just crumbled...or they just did not see a threat.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The vids have been asked for and personally, I don't care if they are posted or not. There was nothing on them but the dogs avoiding Dave. I learned a lot and didn't even realize it until later after Dave and Ariel had left. I have never seen the dogs react the way they did.

Titan came off the deck when I fell......Dave was going toward him. Titan when straight up the hill about 15 to 20 yards stopped, turned around and watched Dave. What registered with me, being the first time I have ever seen any of this first hand, is that I have seen that look before. Titan had a look that is very familiar to me...but I couldn't place it. It came to me last night because I have seen the look many times before...... 300 lb bears have the same look when a dog trees them. They will sit up there looking at that dog with the same look of confusion. They have to be wondering what kind of bad assed dog this is hat will come after them when everything runs away. Lions do it also, one dog after them, they run. Then they sit up there looking confused because thngs are supposed to "run away from them in fear". I also know that getting dogged a few times, bears get over the confusion and quit climbing. Why, because they are no longer confused by a dog coming after them. They become what is known as walking bears. They lost their fear of th dog(s) and just go about their daily routine and kill any dog that gets to close.

My dogs have gone after people and know how people should react. Dave had a suit on and they sensed no fear as he approached them. Like bears and lions, the dogs don't know what to make of that. It creates a confusion. Bears and lions get over it, with some training dogs do to. I am seeing why the dogs are on leash to start this with.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> Yeah, that reminds me of a dog I had that could talk. He wouldn't do it if anyone else was around, only me. Sometimes we would talk politics. Sometimes he would just muse on theoretical physics and astronomy.


+1000 and...

/thread

Oh, I miss having you around.... :lol::lol::lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> Yeah, that reminds me of a dog I had that could talk. He wouldn't do it if anyone else was around, only me. Sometimes we would talk politics. Sometimes he would just muse on theoretical physics and astronomy.


LOL, I know that joke. There just aren't any excuses, the dogs did what they did. I won't even try a recent one I heard on here about how my dog developed a bad limp right before we did this. :razz: :razz: :razz:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The vids have been asked for and personally, I don't care if they are posted or not. There was nothing on them but the dogs avoiding Dave. I learned a lot and didn't even realize it until later after Dave and Ariel had left. I have never seen the dogs react the way they did.
> 
> Titan came off the deck when I fell......Dave was going toward him. Titan when straight up the hill about 15 to 20 yards stopped, turned around and watched Dave. What registered with me, being the first time I have ever seen any of this first hand, is that I have seen that look before. Titan had a look that is very familiar to me...but I couldn't place it. It came to me last night because I have seen the look many times before...... 300 lb bears have the same look when a dog trees them. They will sit up there looking at that dog with the same look of confusion. They have to be wondering what kind of bad assed dog this is hat will come after them when everything runs away. Lions do it also, one dog after them, they run. Then they sit up there looking confused because thngs are supposed to "run away from them in fear". I also know that getting dogged a few times, bears get over the confusion and quit climbing. Why, because they are no longer confused by a dog coming after them. They become what is known as walking bears. They lost their fear of th dog(s) and just go about their daily routine and kill any dog that gets to close.
> 
> My dogs have gone after people and know how people should react. Dave had a suit on and they sensed no fear as he approached them. Like bears and lions, the dogs don't know what to make of that. It creates a confusion. Bears and lions get over it, with some training dogs do to. I am seeing why the dogs are on leash to start this with.


I agree with your assessment in some cases, but am not gonna agree that all dogs are like bears in that sense, I do thank you for sharing some of the details.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The vids have been asked for and personally, I don't care if they are posted or not. There was nothing on them but the dogs avoiding Dave. I learned a lot and didn't even realize it until later after Dave and Ariel had left. I have never seen the dogs react the way they did.
> 
> Titan came off the deck when I fell......Dave was going toward him. Titan when straight up the hill about 15 to 20 yards stopped, turned around and watched Dave. What registered with me, being the first time I have ever seen any of this first hand, is that I have seen that look before. Titan had a look that is very familiar to me...but I couldn't place it. It came to me last night because I have seen the look many times before...... 300 lb bears have the same look when a dog trees them. They will sit up there looking at that dog with the same look of confusion. They have to be wondering what kind of bad assed dog this is hat will come after them when everything runs away. Lions do it also, one dog after them, they run. Then they sit up there looking confused because thngs are supposed to "run away from them in fear". I also know that getting dogged a few times, bears get over the confusion and quit climbing. Why, because they are no longer confused by a dog coming after them. They become what is known as walking bears. They lost their fear of th dog(s) and just go about their daily routine and kill any dog that gets to close.
> 
> My dogs have gone after people and know how people should react. Dave had a suit on and they sensed no fear as he approached them. Like bears and lions, the dogs don't know what to make of that. It creates a confusion. Bears and lions get over it, with some training dogs do to. I am seeing why the dogs are on leash to start this with.


"I am seeing why the dogs are on leash to start this with"

What do you mean?


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## Roger Yost (Dec 26, 2009)

Here's video of an airedale being tested for the first time . Perhaps the test went the same way ?



http://youtu.be/WWYVL4zDEIY Here's video of an airedale being tested for the first time . Perhaps the test went that same way ?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

A friend of mine told me that when livestock start acting like predators instead of prey, her dogs won't work them. The scenario, instead of the stock running from the dog, the stock move toward the dog. At that point, the dogs run from the stock. You will see this especially with lambs and calves that aren't dog broke and some aggressive stock. She thought this was true of all dogs. Not. Its basically fear/flight in the face of a threat. It'd be the same if the hog decided in an open area to open chase on the dogs. You're either going to see fight or flight. Dogs hard wired to guard/protect, don't think about it. They just do it without hesitation and fast. Odin and Titan--how old. Agree on showing the video. 

T


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## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

Charles Guyer said:


> Yeah, that reminds me of a dog I had that could talk. He wouldn't do it if anyone else was around, only me. Sometimes we would talk politics. Sometimes he would just muse on theoretical physics and astronomy.



haha awesome. I like your style.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ". I also know that getting dogged a few times, bears get over the confusion and quit climbing. Why, because they are no longer confused by a dog coming after them. They become what is known as walking bears. They lost their fear of th dog(s) and just go about their daily routine and kill any dog that gets to close.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Charles Guyer said:


> Yeah, that reminds me of a dog I had that could talk. He wouldn't do it if anyone else was around, only me. Sometimes we would talk politics. Sometimes he would just muse on theoretical physics and astronomy.


 
Is that the one everyone else just heard, "Blah, blah,blah", from?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Don Turnipseed said:
> 
> 
> > ". I also know that getting dogged a few times, bears get over the confusion and quit climbing. Why, because they are no longer confused by a dog coming after them. They become what is known as walking bears. They lost their fear of th dog(s) and just go about their daily routine and kill any dog that gets to close.
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Short drive. Some editing and videos shall be up!!


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

dave colborn said:


> short drive. Some editing and videos shall be up!!


cool! =d>


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Short drive. Some editing and videos shall be up!!


I want to thank both you and Ariel Dave. I knoiw what it is like to go cross country, arrive in the middle of the night, and hop too first thing in the morning. It isn't fun. Both Lynda and myself enjoyed the visit....and I learned a few things for sure. Thanks again.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I agree. I don't understand how it all went down but on several levels with this being orchestrated, and given how they are raised, I agree with Chris. As for a certain Sch III GSD, having had him at my feet and stop a guy cold with coming out of a down with fixed stare that I didn't like rushing toward me, no doubt, he'll protect. He wasn't thinking about the suit vs. sleeve game or himself. Defense of pack can/will override what a dog may even think of in terms of defense of himself. In other words, defense of pack can be stronger. Instinct vs. orchestration are two totally different things. Some dogs know when things are orchestrated. Some may have instinct but may question whether they have permission. There, theres the situation if god claims it, the dogs will let him have it. They're yard dogs raised in dog packs. Take a confident dog raised from puppyhood with that individual, then look at it from the defense of handler perspective. I don't believe a dog needs training to protect based on experiences with my own dogs. Sorry, but I can't believe that the bond/pack to the human is as strong with dogs raised in dog packs.
> 
> T


What she said!

IMO strength of bond is key when talking about naturally protective dogs and as far as the dog feeling a true threat they were probably more puzzled then anything else without actually viewing footage. Do to lack of socialization Dons dogs have never been able to form their social opinions about people and decipher normal activity from douche activity or threatening activity. I've seen dogs untrained be socially fine and spark up in a second do to slight body language change and a shitty expression given to the dog and this was a naturally protective dog, it has nothing to do with classical training but lack of experience recognizing different social situations, no different then hunting there is a learning process based on experience, experience sharpens and refines instinct. This area being of little concern to Don the dogs are simply ignorant, never seeing this situation or having a clue how to react and respond...puzzled! 
A remark was made blaming Koehler, even he said one of the biggest challenges are finding a decoy that can sell the threat," real instinct reads real bullshit in a heart beat" my quote. A dog with a predators instinct senses defense and some time wont even react because its not a threat to them, they can go right up to a dog that is in a defensive frenzy and not even know what to make of it but one thing is for sure they feel no threat. 
Another factor is even if Don was attempting to sell himself as a victim to elicit a protective response being that it may not have been anything they have seen before again more of a puzzling effect, these are not dogs that will rattle easily or naturally feel a week threat. Being Don has more of a working relationship with true working dogs this IMO was the equivalent of just having a strange day at work in the dogs perspectives, they were presented with a new task they were not familiar with yet expected to perform in a specific manor. They have not learned to be suspicious of any potential threats and lack a higher level of bonding which could elicit a more protective nature. IMO if raised in an environment nurturing protectiveness, having a tight bond with an owner as an inside dog and an owner who displays fear which intern manifests a encouraged reactive response over time , these same dogs would display a totally different picture. We are all products of our environment and Dons dogs have never been in an environment nurturing protective instincts.
I think a lot was learned overall but not much was proven, Don doesn't sell protection dogs so any outcome was of no consequence in the big picture. If I was in the market for a serious dog/ prospect Don would be one of my first contacts. Bottom line is if you personally live in fear and need a dog for protection purposes it better be one of a few layers of protection including alarms and firearms, otherwise your living in a delusional fantasy world,the equivalent of believing an airbag is 100% protection in a car accident.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Mike Valente said:


> What she said!.....
> 
> IMO strength of bond is key when talking about naturally protective dogs and as far as the dog feeling a true threat they were probably more puzzled then anything else without actually viewing footage. ....
> 
> .


 
I don't think the bond is the key element. I believe it's important, but I feel the dog has to have a lot more,,,such as the willingness to take a fight on no matter who or what it is.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Mike Valente said:


> What she said!
> 
> IMO strength of bond is key when talking about naturally protective dogs and as far as the dog feeling a true threat they were probably more puzzled then anything else without actually viewing footage. Do to lack of socialization Dons dogs have never been able to form their social opinions about people and decipher normal activity from douche activity or threatening activity. I've seen dogs untrained be socially fine and spark up in a second do to slight body language change and a shitty expression given to the dog and this was a naturally protective dog, it has nothing to do with classical training but lack of experience recognizing different social situations, no different then hunting there is a learning process based on experience, experience sharpens and refines instinct. This area being of little concern to Don the dogs are simply ignorant, never seeing this situation or having a clue how to react and respond...puzzled!
> A remark was made blaming Koehler, even he said one of the biggest challenges are finding a decoy that can sell the threat," real instinct reads real bullshit in a heart beat" my quote. A dog with a predators instinct senses defense and some time wont even react because its not a threat to them, they can go right up to a dog that is in a defensive frenzy and not even know what to make of it but one thing is for sure they feel no threat.
> ...


Anytime we discuss what a dog is thinking we're being purely speculative. Dogs do not have the ability to reason, or articulate to us what they are thinking. Dogs know when shit hurts and when things are awesome. I know for a fact that there are some pretty sick working dogs that don't have a "bond" with anyone. All of this protective instinct talk is completely unfounded. Just too complex a thought process.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Charles Guyer said:


> Anytime we discuss what a dog is thinking we're being purely speculative. Dogs do not have the ability to reason, or articulate to us what they are thinking. Dogs know when shit hurts and when things are awesome. I know for a fact that there are some pretty sick working dogs that don't have a "bond" with anyone. All of this protective instinct talk is completely unfounded. Just too complex a thought process.


 
Charles not sure if anyone said anyhting about dog's having an underlying thought process in the same sense as humans do. would you conceded that dogs have instinctual programed genetic responses and a capacity for learned behaviours thats nothing more survival of species/survival of pack/survival of self. 

no pondering the universe in any of it, just striaght biological instincts and learned responses, still say the test says nothing more than the response of 2/3 dogs dogs under a set of unfamilair stimuli - nothing more nothing less??


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Terrasita Cuffie*  
_I agree. I don't understand how it all went down but on several levels with this being orchestrated, and given how they are raised, I agree with Chris. As for a certain Sch III GSD, having had him at my feet and stop a guy cold with coming out of a down with fixed stare that I didn't like rushing toward me, no doubt, he'll protect. He wasn't thinking about the suit vs. sleeve game or himself. Defense of pack can/will override what a dog may even think of in terms of defense of himself. In other words, defense of pack can be stronger. Instinct vs. orchestration are two totally different things. Some dogs know when things are orchestrated. Some may have instinct but may question whether they have permission. There, theres the situation if god claims it, the dogs will let him have it. They're yard dogs raised in dog packs. Take a confident dog raised from puppyhood with that individual, then look at it from the defense of handler perspective. I don't believe a dog needs training to protect based on experiences with my own dogs. Sorry, but I can't believe that the bond/pack to the human is as strong with dogs raised in dog packs. 

Terrasita. Did your german shepherd dog SCH III Bite anyone? Was he yours, or someone left him at your feet in a long down. Did this aggressor go to the hospital. 

I don't think you know what you are talking about, but I can't follow what you're saying enough to be sure.

Double goes to Mike V for agreeing so strongly with you.

Kudos to Charles G for pointing out that dogs in fact CAN'T state their opinion. Either in an open forum or behind closed doors. 

Stand by for video.
_


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Charles Guyer said:


> Yeah, that reminds me of a dog I had that could talk. He wouldn't do it if anyone else was around, only me. Sometimes we would talk politics. Sometimes he would just muse on theoretical physics and astronomy.


Glad you had good conversations with your dog LOL. 

All I know is that my dog saved my ass in a real situation for whatever reason. We never discussed physics and astronomy though.

As to acronyms I thought most dog people would know what an ACD is, certainly seen plenty of people on this board use it and it has never been questioned before.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Terrasita Cuffie*
> _I agree. I don't understand how it all went down but on several levels with this being orchestrated, and given how they are raised, I agree with Chris. As for a certain Sch III GSD, having had him at my feet and stop a guy cold with coming out of a down with fixed stare that I didn't like rushing toward me, no doubt, he'll protect. He wasn't thinking about the suit vs. sleeve game or himself. Defense of pack can/will override what a dog may even think of in terms of defense of himself. In other words, defense of pack can be stronger. Instinct vs. orchestration are two totally different things. Some dogs know when things are orchestrated. Some may have instinct but may question whether they have permission. There, theres the situation if god claims it, the dogs will let him have it. They're yard dogs raised in dog packs. Take a confident dog raised from puppyhood with that individual, then look at it from the defense of handler perspective. I don't believe a dog needs training to protect based on experiences with my own dogs. Sorry, but I can't believe that the bond/pack to the human is as strong with dogs raised in dog packs.
> 
> ...


I read it more her post a few time and can't figure out WTF she's talking about. I just wrote it off the way I usually do most of her posts. I'm a simple guy!#-o


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i've been so bored with this thread for so long that any video would be nice in a new thread. if/when it gets posted.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> I think a lot was learned overall but not much was proven, Don doesn't sell protection dogs so any outcome was of no consequence in the big picture. If I was in the market for a serious dog/ prospect Don would be one of my first contacts.


I hear there's a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Real cheap too.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Finalizing the vid and uploading it to youtube.

Thanks again to Don and Lynda for having us out. The footage isn't perfect, but maybe Lynda can post what she had. 

I want it to be understood, I had some misgivings about Don and this whole process, but as Jennifer Marshall said, you just have to meet him to understand more about him. Not claiming to understand all of Don, but he seemed a pretty good dog man with well taken care of dogs. We'll disagree on things I am sure, as he is an old school kind of guy with strong opinions, but I am glad I had the opportunity to meet him, and would love to see firsthand, his dogs in action on hogs or other wild game if he ever made the offer.


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Finalizing the vid and uploading it to youtube.
> 
> Thanks again to Don and Lynda for having us out. The footage isn't perfect, but maybe Lynda can post what she had.
> 
> I want it to be understood, I had some misgivings about Don and this whole process, but as Jennifer Marshall said, you just have to meet him to understand more about him. Not claiming to understand all of Don, but he seemed a pretty good dog man with well taken care of dogs. We'll disagree on things I am sure, as he is an old school kind of guy with strong opinions, but I am glad I had the opportunity to meet him, and would love to see firsthand, his dogs in action on hogs or other wild game if he ever made the offer.


Classy post, Dave. Glad you all had a great time and looking forward to the video!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Here it is AIREDALES.

There are two parts, wait for the second one. This one is just prep work....


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Finalizing the vid and uploading it to youtube.
> 
> Thanks again to Don and Lynda for having us out. The footage isn't perfect, but maybe Lynda can post what she had.
> 
> I want it to be understood, I had some misgivings about Don and this whole process, but as Jennifer Marshall said, you just have to meet him to understand more about him. Not claiming to understand all of Don, but he seemed a pretty good dog man with well taken care of dogs. We'll disagree on things I am sure, as he is an old school kind of guy with strong opinions, but I am glad I had the opportunity to meet him, and would love to see firsthand, his dogs in action on hogs or other wild game if he ever made the offer.


 
Kelly is right. Very classy Dave. You're one of the good guys. No bragging or "I told you so's". Good on you!!! 
Much love to ya Buddy.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Here it is AIREDALES.
> 
> There are two parts, wait for the second one. This one is just prep work....


NOPE

I'm getting somebody singing "never gonna give you up" ????


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'm getting somebody singing "never gonna give you up" ????



Me too.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Me too.



You have been "Rickrolled"

8 minutes remaining.


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Here it is AIREDALES.
> 
> There are two parts, wait for the second one. This one is just prep work....


You shit! Im taking back the nice stuff I said. lol Hurry up & post the thing already.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Charles Guyer said:


> Anytime we discuss what a dog is thinking we're being purely speculative. Dogs do not have the ability to reason, or articulate to us what they are thinking. Dogs know when shit hurts and when things are awesome. I know for a fact that there are some pretty sick working dogs that don't have a "bond" with anyone. All of this protective instinct talk is completely unfounded. Just too complex a thought process.


If you ever had an untrained dog protect you and see it in action, then you wouldn't think it was complex. I've been there and done it with at least three dogs in my life time. Dogs read a situation and the people they are bonded to and will literally spring into action. I depend on that protective guard instinct with livestock as well. Cow turns and thinks to run me and the dog out of the pen, its that same guard/protective instinct along with confidence/fight that has kept me from taking a hit from a cow or ram. I don't know what you call a sick working dog but sure there are dogs bred on bite/fight and it has little to do with a bond to the handler. Some of them are so full of it that they will bite the handler. Total different thing. Instictive guard/protect along with judgment used to be a desirable trait and actually what was was being tested. Now its all scenario training and forget instinct. Some even believe instinct gets in the way of training and points.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If you ever had an untrained dog protect you and see it in action, then you wouldn't think it was complex. I've been there and done it with at least three dogs in my life time. Dogs read a situation and the people they are bonded to and will literally spring into action. I depend on that protective guard instinct with livestock as well. Cow turns and thinks to run me and the dog out of the pen, its that same guard/protective instinct along with confidence/fight that has kept me from taking a hit from a cow or ram. I don't know what you call a sick working dog but sure there are dogs bred on bite/fight and it has little to do with a bond to the handler. Some of them are so full of it that they will bite the handler. Total different thing. Instictive guard/protect along with judgment used to be a desirable trait and actually what was was being tested. Now its all scenario training and forget instinct. Some even believe instinct gets in the way of training and points.
> 
> T


Three times. People must not like you, or you are pissing their untrained protective dogs off.

Oh, and dogs don't have judgement. FYI

And whatever you are now typing to prove a dog has judgment, is conditioned response. FYI.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Well I'll step up and say "I told you so":



susan tuck said:


> In any case, I have a feeling that no matter the outcome, you and those who have gone out to meet you will all have a greater understanding and respect for one another by the time the dust settles. I guess that would be the best outcome of all.


 
All y'all proved you're class acts.

Thank you kindly!!!

Hey I had a dog who would "protect" me. I guess that's what some people would call it, and I guess I could too, if I wanted to romantisize the reality. Truth of the matter is he had a screw loose/nerve bag, and it made him a real liability. Dogs can't make that call, so it's all or nothing and that's why that kind of dog is dangerous. Lassie never did tell anyone Timmy fell down the well.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Well I'll step up and say "I told you so":
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Glad you were right on that one. Made it a lot more fun.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

The suspense of the video is literally keeping me from going to bed....HA!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

The real link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> The real link
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


Sweet Jesus, Finally! lol BRB!


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Don stood loyal to his dogs and Dave was a man of his word. My hat's off to both guys.


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## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

wow... The dog actually left the truck and ran away?? Was there even a bluff on the dogs part of trying to scare him off? I would like to see a bit more extended footage of the dogs reaction, not cut off so quick.


might want to stick to hunting with these dogs.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

*added to favorites*


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL Naw, he didn't run away Drew. He was on a leash for Daves protection. That dog is the 2007 Nat'l Master Fur Dog from the field nationals in OH. Only the 16th dog to pass it in 22 years at the time. The only one to pass that year. Your right, he should stick to hunting.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> *added to favorites*


LOL You do that Maren. They would have done much better, but, they both developed a bad limp right before Dave got there. :wink: Even better if they had some training.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Terrasita Cuffie*
> _I agree. I don't understand how it all went down but on several levels with this being orchestrated, and given how they are raised, I agree with Chris. As for a certain Sch III GSD, having had him at my feet and stop a guy cold with coming out of a down with fixed stare that I didn't like rushing toward me, no doubt, he'll protect. He wasn't thinking about the suit vs. sleeve game or himself. Defense of pack can/will override what a dog may even think of in terms of defense of himself. In other words, defense of pack can be stronger. Instinct vs. orchestration are two totally different things. Some dogs know when things are orchestrated. Some may have instinct but may question whether they have permission. There, theres the situation if god claims it, the dogs will let him have it. They're yard dogs raised in dog packs. Take a confident dog raised from puppyhood with that individual, then look at it from the defense of handler perspective. I don't believe a dog needs training to protect based on experiences with my own dogs. Sorry, but I can't believe that the bond/pack to the human is as strong with dogs raised in dog packs. _
> 
> ...


No, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Maybe you've never had a dog act on protective instinct in a REAL situation and that's the basis for your opinion. I know exactly what Sara means in terms of what happens when a dog is triggered in the real situations vs. orchestrated. You obviously don't have that experience. The GSD that's a Sch III is a dog I had a training relationship with. He had been placed in a down near me and was springing out of it when the guy approached. I was surprised he read me and reacted. I've had three that I can think of [4 GSDs and 1bouv] bite and sink teeth. 2 sought medical intervention. 1 went for the dog with a knife. That was the wrist she got. I've had a bouv go head on through chainlink and a windshield when triggered. Had another GSD go through a picture window when my brother got into a fight with another kid. And no, the victims weren't all done up in bite suits with the idea of the person didn't matter, they were just going to try to run the dog. Last year a PPD trainer was trying to explain why he thought PPD training was necessary. I told him that I never needed to train one. When these surprise situations happened, the dog rose to the occasion. He told me that dogs are different now. Maybe so. You read comments regarding whether dogs would bite for real as if that's the exception to the rule. When I was growing up in dogs it was a given that they would---at least with the GSDs and Doberman that I had. 

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

They obviously aren't natural protectors, but I'd sure like to see
someone spend a little time training one and see what happens.
I like the look and I like the drive. They're just not focused.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Maybe you've never had a dog act on protective instinct in a REAL situation and that's the basis for your opinion. I know exactly what Sara means in terms of what happens when a dog is triggered in the real situations vs. orchestrated. You obviously don't have that experience. The GSD that's a Sch III is a dog I had a training relationship with. He had been placed in a down near me and was springing out of it when the guy approached. I was surprised he read me and reacted. I've had three that I can think of [4 GSDs and 1bouv] bite and sink teeth. 2 sought medical intervention. 1 went for the dog with a knife. That was the wrist she got. I've had a bouv go head on through chainlink and a windshield when triggered. Had another GSD go through a picture window when my brother got into a fight with another kid. And no, the victims weren't all done up in bite suits with the idea of the person didn't matter, they were just going to try to run the dog. Last year a PPD trainer was trying to explain why he thought PPD training was necessary. I told him that I never needed to train one. When these surprise situations happened, the dog rose to the occasion. He told me that dogs are different now. Maybe so. You read comments regarding whether dogs would bite for real as if that's the exception to the rule. When I was growing up in dogs it was a given that they would---at least with the GSDs and Doberman that I had.
> 
> T



Slow down. One dog at a time. Did the Sch III dog bite? And was it warranted? Then we'll move to the next dog. You bleed stuff together so it is hard for me to understand.

Disregard. I just don't believe you. I don't really want to hear the lies after a dog (went head on through chainlink) you lost me right there, and I am not coming back. You are selling crazy and I am not buying.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hahah too funny, great production, "give me the popcorn, give me the popcorn" hahaha too funny, mebbe the dogs just don't care for popcorn, and didn't think it was worth protecting.

man i want you to do the car thing with my dog - i know she would hand you your nuts on a platter.

ever in oz boys look me up.

total respect to both - can't help feel the vibe was a bit comical though?

awesome made hanging in for 60+ pages totally worth it


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Three times. People must not like you, or you are pissing their untrained protective dogs off.
> 
> Oh, and dogs don't have judgement. FYI
> 
> And whatever you are now typing to prove a dog has judgment, is conditioned response. FYI.


 
If you never trained them, how do they have a conditioned response. Its not so much whether the people like me, its whether I like them and the dog will read that. I think with each dog, you don't really know until something happens; although you might suspect. Dogs can read a threat. Its why some only bite when there is one. Its why they are socially reliable. 

T


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

"No, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Maybe you've never had a dog act on protective instinct in a REAL situation and that's the basis for your opinion. I know exactly what Sara means in terms of what happens when a dog is triggered in the real situations vs. orchestrated. You obviously don't have that experience. The GSD that's a Sch III is a dog I had a training relationship with. He had been placed in a down near me and was springing out of it when the guy approached. I was surprised he read me and reacted. I've had three that I can think of [4 GSDs and 1bouv] bite and sink teeth. 2 sought medical intervention. 1 went for the dog with a knife. That was the wrist she got. I've had a bouv go head on through chainlink and a windshield when triggered. Had another GSD go through a picture window when my brother got into a fight with another kid. And no, the victims weren't all done up in bite suits with the idea of the person didn't matter, they were just going to try to run the dog. Last year a PPD trainer was trying to explain why he thought PPD training was necessary. I told him that I never needed to train one. When these surprise situations happened, the dog rose to the occasion. He told me that dogs are different now. Maybe so. You read comments regarding whether dogs would bite for real as if that's the exception to the rule. When I was growing up in dogs it was a given that they would---at least with the GSDs and Doberman that I had. "

T

I'm not trying to be a prick. Just giving you my honest opinion. I don't believe that "protection" is a concept that can be understood by a dog. In this case Fight/Flight is the instinctive behavior. If you happen to protected while your dog is instinctively fighting a man then that is a beneficial byproduct of the dog's instinctive, reflexive behavior. The primary behavior is fighting, not protecting. Dogs are social and their well being is relative well being of his/her family group, ergo family preservation is self preservation...of course the dog does not know this, it just fights or flies.

PS Thanks to Don and Dave the video. It was very informative.


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Terrasita Cuffie*  
_No, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Maybe you've never had a dog act on protective instinct in a REAL situation and that's the basis for your opinion. I know exactly what Sara means in terms of what happens when a dog is triggered in the real situations vs. orchestrated. You obviously don't have that experience. The GSD that's a Sch III is a dog I had a training relationship with. He had been placed in a down near me and was springing out of it when the guy approached. I was surprised he read me and reacted. I've had three that I can think of [4 GSDs and 1bouv] bite and sink teeth. 2 sought medical intervention. 1 went for the dog with a knife. That was the wrist she got. I've had a bouv go head on through chainlink and a windshield when triggered. Had another GSD go through a picture window when my brother got into a fight with another kid. And no, the victims weren't all done up in bite suits with the idea of the person didn't matter, they were just going to try to run the dog. Last year a PPD trainer was trying to explain why he thought PPD training was necessary. I told him that I never needed to train one. When these surprise situations happened, the dog rose to the occasion. He told me that dogs are different now. Maybe so. You read comments regarding whether dogs would bite for real as if that's the exception to the rule. When I was growing up in dogs it was a given that they would---at least with the GSDs and Doberman that I had. 
_

WOW, so have you been assaulted, attacked or whatever *3 different times* that your dog actually full on protected you? I'd carry a gun if I were you! Were there any criminal charges on either end? I mean did your dogs put anyone in the hospital? That stuff can be quite tricky.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> The real link
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


Don, was the same dog that went out the car window, the one that was on the deck? But yep, keep the guns nearby and stick to hunting with those. I would have added a third scenario--male in the pen with the bitches he lives with in crates in the pen or otherwise confined and send Dave in yelling popcorn. This is just for your dogs based on who I think the real pack and territory are. Its not you and its not the car.

T


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> The real link
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


 
Dave, I know you'll still be my friend after this ...but I just have to call you out. You spelled preparation wrong! It's a travesty.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Damned, that was bad acting in that video. I had to laugh watching that. One thing I didn't want to do was scratch my boots falling down. LOL I didn't.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ariel your missing the big picture here


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If you never trained them, how do they have a conditioned response. Its not so much whether the people like me, its whether I like them and the dog will read that. I think with each dog, you don't really know until something happens; although you might suspect. Dogs can read a threat. Its why some only bite when there is one. Its why they are socially reliable.
> 
> T


OK. I can't stop myself. The Sch III dog wasn't trained? Conditioned. Please answer that and nothing else.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

dave, you should travel the country doing this. hahah. i would love to test my bitch out. 
she did bite my uncle in the ass once when he came in unannounced... I was pleased, he had welts on his ass.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I will indeed favorite it...the video speaks for itself. Even I would have a modicum of respect for you for wanting to test your dogs if you weren't so keen on running your mouth about how your dogs were such a bunch of BAMF protectors so much beforehand when they are clearly not. This is what you get for having so much ego in your dogs. Stick to the hunting boards or maybe just your own board where you can impress everyone there with your big hat and no cattle. It's much more fun to be the big fish in the little pond. 

Incidentally, my dog still passed his WH obedience even though it was 104 degrees out when we did our obedience, he has been in a crate driving for 7 hours that day to get to the trial, we had no chance to practice on the field beforehand so we went out cold on a field he'd never been on (I don't get the luxury of trialing at my club trials on home field advantage), AND he stepped on a darn burr (my flip flips were covered in them before I switched to tennis shoes and the judge warned us about them all over the field) and came up lame two minutes before we went on. His most beautiful performance? Absolutely not. But we got through it. 

If anyone wants to see another relatively green dog try the PSA car jacking for the first time, we have a German shepherd that's been coming out the last few weeks to our club. He has a little bit of Schutzhund foundation (mostly bite wedge/tug stuff), but this is him doing the car jacking for the first time as a comparison. Well, I say "comparison" because the dog is still very green and will need work, but there really is none. No prep work for this either, we just wanted to see where the dog was at and what he'd do. My dog happens to be in the second half of the video. He's probably done the car jacking maybe 10 times in training so he knows a bit better what is expected...still is a bit growly, but we're working on it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoFwpcF3ooQ


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> dave, you should travel the country doing this. hahah. i would love to test my bitch out.
> she did bite my uncle in the ass once when he came in unannounced... I was pleased, he had welts on his ass.


Well, if your uncle reacted, then training took place and the test is tainted....lol.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Damned, that was bad acting in that video. I had to laugh watching that. One thing I didn't want to do was scratch my boots falling down. LOL I didn't.


nah would have been worse if ya got caught scratchin your nuts on camera


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> The real link
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


Nice editing, however! It was much more interesting to watch with your commentary!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Charles Guyer said:


> "No, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Maybe you've never had a dog act on protective instinct in a REAL situation and that's the basis for your opinion. I know exactly what Sara means in terms of what happens when a dog is triggered in the real situations vs. orchestrated. You obviously don't have that experience. The GSD that's a Sch III is a dog I had a training relationship with. He had been placed in a down near me and was springing out of it when the guy approached. I was surprised he read me and reacted. I've had three that I can think of [4 GSDs and 1bouv] bite and sink teeth. 2 sought medical intervention. 1 went for the dog with a knife. That was the wrist she got. I've had a bouv go head on through chainlink and a windshield when triggered. Had another GSD go through a picture window when my brother got into a fight with another kid. And no, the victims weren't all done up in bite suits with the idea of the person didn't matter, they were just going to try to run the dog. Last year a PPD trainer was trying to explain why he thought PPD training was necessary. I told him that I never needed to train one. When these surprise situations happened, the dog rose to the occasion. He told me that dogs are different now. Maybe so. You read comments regarding whether dogs would bite for real as if that's the exception to the rule. When I was growing up in dogs it was a given that they would---at least with the GSDs and Doberman that I had. "
> 
> T
> 
> ...


Here's a scenario for you. Dog is out in yard with 3 year old fetching a ball. At some point they both get tired of the game. Dog lays down. 3 year old toddles out to the fenceline that is 25 feet away. Person approaches and talks to baby. Dog focuses on them watching while 3 year old talks to the person at the fence [four feet high]. The second the person reaches for the 3 year old over the fence, the dog takes off full tilt and launches for the person at the fence. No bite because person jumped back. What do you think that dog is acting on? 


T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

BTW i'm deducting points for the fight scene - come on boys a bit more effort.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i'm so inspired by this i'm gonna not train my pup and do the same scenario's in video, not to prove anything just to see responses, promise the vid when it goes up will not involve prior training.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Nice editing, however! It was much more interesting to watch with your commentary!


I am tempted to post the rest. It is some funny stuff.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

do it, Don's cool with it all, so whats the prob.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Do I still feel there are dogs that are natural protectors. Sure do. But, there is a big grey area to the extent of that protection now. I have seen too many bears and lions run from a single dog. They get in a tree and look down at that dog studying the situation. Just can't figure out what is going on. That I am going to say needs training(exposure) to overcome to be reliable.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Here's a scenario for you. Dog is out in yard with 3 year old fetching a ball. At some point they both get tired of the game. Dog lays down. 3 year old toddles out to the fenceline that is 25 feet away. Person approaches and talks to baby. Dog focuses on them watching while 3 year old talks to the person at the fence [four feet high]. The second the person reaches for the 3 year old over the fence, the dog takes off full tilt and launches for the person at the fence. No bite because person jumped back. What do you think that dog is acting on?
> 
> 
> T


Same stuff as I said before.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> The real link
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


 
After that rick Assley video, I wish you would have had wild boar on you. You deserve to be bitten. [-X[-X[-X[-X LOL. 

Glad that you and Don got "her done" and have come to some form of agreement and hopefully a little mutual respect.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> The real link
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTCRmaauE4


Excellent.. well worth the wait.

The handshake was my personal favorite, and it was nice to see the dogs all fire up some at the commotion. Nice setup Don.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Do I still feel there are dogs that are natural protectors. Sure do. But, there is a big grey area to the extent of that protection now. I have seen too many bears and lions run from a single dog. They get in a tree and look down at that dog studying the situation. Just can't figure out what is going on. That I am going to say needs training(exposure) to overcome to be reliable.


 
Don all you or anyone can state from this is something about the dogs in the video at that time - and even thats shaky given the whole set up, hardly a rigorous study (no offence). the only error you could make is making any generalisations - that would be just wrong, the general question was not addressed in this experiment.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Here's a scenario for you. Dog is out in yard with 3 year old fetching a ball. At some point they both get tired of the game. Dog lays down. 3 year old toddles out to the fenceline that is 25 feet away. Person approaches and talks to baby. Dog focuses on them watching while 3 year old talks to the person at the fence [four feet high]. The second the person reaches for the 3 year old over the fence, the dog takes off full tilt and launches for the person at the fence. No bite because person jumped back. What do you think that dog is acting on?
> 
> 
> T


What if the person is the grandmother visiting from Australia for the first time and reaches over to pick up the 3 yr old.
Does the dog bite or not?

I don't want my dog(s) acting on any damn thing but my commands.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I am tempted to post the rest. It is some funny stuff.


Dave,

I don't want no more Cheech Marin look alike video
Ain't there any video of Ariel in her ring girl outfit?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I don't want my dog(s) *acting on any damn thing but my commands*.


 
Thomas then that would be training - wrong thread


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> What if the person is the grandmother visiting from Australia for the first time and reaches over to pick up the 3 yr old.
> Does the dog bite or not?
> 
> I don't want my dog(s) acting on any damn thing but my commands.


With this dog, the grandmother that visited could pick him up. With the GSD bitch that I had when I brought him home from the hospital [Ingrid]---no, my mother couldn't pick him up. Only me and my husband could pick him up. My mother raised us with a GSD of the same caliber. We never saw it as an issue. If I left my son with my mother at the house--Ingrid was in a crate in another room with the door shut. Before the baby was born, Ingrid always allowed my mother to enter the house when I wasn't there and my mother kept her when I was out of town. Meant nothing when my son was born. She took up residence under the crib and only I and hubby could pick him up. Instinct has saved my a** on a number of occasions. As long as you know its there and know how to manage it--no issues.

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Thomas then that would be training - wrong thread



Got it Peter, it's ok if your dog mauls granny as long as you don't train it? ;-)


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Don the dogs did initially fire up once you neared each other. Maybe if Dave had retreated on or more of the dogs would have attempted to bite. I guess that gives you a starting point, if you desire to attempt to protection train one of them. 

Nowmthinking back on it, I think you realized that when you gave the running bear example.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

no Thomas thats not OK, i just commented on the fact that yr shifting the argument, i agree fully with what yr saying. the current argument is ... ah i forgot


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Not really. Large predators turn tail and seek safety from a single dog they could kill in a millisecond. Dog avoids a man and stands far enough away and studies the situation. What they all have in common is that something that has no business aggressing is doing it. They all have to sit back and study it some because, in ther mind, that is just not the way it works. Dog(train) bears or lions a few times and don't kill them....you got an animal that won't run or climb to avoid them. Training a dog does the same thing. It is simple behavior. Neither a bear nor a lion has any reason to flee from a dog.....but they do when the dog acts in a way that is totally unnatural to the way they are used to. It is all the same thing. Basic behavior.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> With this dog, the grandmother that visited could pick him up. With the GSD bitch that I had when I brought him home from the hospital [Ingrid]---no, my mother couldn't pick him up. Only me and my husband could pick him up. My mother raised us with a GSD of the same caliber. We never saw it as an issue. If I left my son with my mother at the house--Ingrid was in a crate in another room with the door shut. Before the baby was born, Ingrid always allowed my mother to enter the house when I wasn't there and my mother kept her when I was out of town. Meant nothing when my son was born. She took up residence under the crib and only I and hubby could pick him up. Instinct has saved my a** on a number of occasions. As long as you know its there and know how to manage it--no issues.
> 
> T



Terrasita

How does a dog know the difference between Granny and some crazy old lady trying to kidnap the baby IF the dog has never seen either before?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

BTW Thomas my granny would bite the dam dog back


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not really. Large predators turn tail and seek safety from a single dog they could kill in a millisecond. Dog avoids a man and stands far enough away and studies the situation. .


i will bet money i could shut down a KNPV champ with a chicken - if it has never seen one before


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> no Thomas thats not OK, i just commented on the fact that yr shifting the argument, i agree fully with what yr saying. the current argument is ... ah i forgot


Peter,

I'm commenting of Terrasita's 3 yr old in the yard when someone reaches over the fence. After all these posts you want me to keep on topic? BWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWA
I bet you expect a warn welcome when you crash a biker party?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Peter,
> 
> I'm commenting of Terrasita's 3 yr old in the yard when someone reaches over the fence. After all these posts you want me to keep on topic? BWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWA
> *I bet you expect a warn welcome when you crash a biker party*?


 
well the thought did cross my mind, i mean WTF was their problem anyway, i would have replaced any beers i drank - people these days, no social skills.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> well the thought did cross my mind, i mean WTF was their problem anyway, i would have replaced any beers i drank - people these days, no social skills.



Damn dude. Next time you won't try to "socialize your dog" in the Blue Oyster. Don't get mad because they don't find YOU attractive...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dwyras Brown said:


> Don the dogs did initially fire up once you neared each other. Maybe if Dave had retreated on or more of the dogs would have attempted to bite. I guess that gives you a starting point, if you desire to attempt to protection train one of them.
> 
> Nowmthinking back on it, I think you realized that when you gave the running bear example.


Pretty much Dwyras. Never really understood it until I saw it in person. Dog takes a position 10 to 15 yards away and stands there studying us wondering what the heck is going on. That I could train a dog for. I figure if a dog can train a bear or a lion to quit running....I should be able to get a dog over it also. :grin:

I was real curious about my dogs being to set in their ways also. Titan is almpst 11, Odin is about 7. Neither of them would evn look at the towel on a rope. They looked at everyone more like they were nuts. Broughjt out Jackie, who is 5 1/2 mo, and she played tug with it. Of course, she had to meet Dave and Ariel first.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

sorry cultural barrier - blue oyster??


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> sorry cultural barrier - blue oyster??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdbt-sx5MDc

Did you're bikers look like these fellas? Did you have a "dance off"??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdbt-sx5MDc
> 
> Did you're bikers look like these fellas? Did you have a "dance off"??


 
OK get it - it'spretty funny now, dance of - thats the ice-breaker i was looking for, file that one.

thanks

whats the membership fees to your bar?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

In test #2, when the dog jumped out of the truck, where did he go, that is my only lingering question.

Thanks for sharing the video.

I think Dave was more than fair about it, and looked like he was maybe even trying to encourage the dogs, by his approach and execution...not saying he would keep "encouraging" them if they came closer to him, even if I am wrong about that, it was a fair test, the dogs obviously had plenty of opportunity to make decisions on what they were gonna do. All in all, I am not surprised by the results much, but was thinking there was a chance that they may have attempted to bite, after debating this topic with Don for almost 2 yrs, only he knows his dogs, not me.

For almost 20 yrs or so I have been getting and keeping my dogs with some form of manwork as a goal, so I would not keep dogs that reacted like that, whether I raised them or not, but I do realize that Don does not have much interest in that facet of the dogs, and it is not a goal of his program. I personally would not have set the test up like that, even though that is how Don chose to do it, all in all I am very glad it was done, and thank the participants for making the effort...


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

Great video. I felt Dave was more than fair. Interesting too, Dave actually profiled the dog briefly during his approach to the truck, and then squared off at about 1 meter. I'm curious Dave, when you squared your shoulders off to the dog, is that what triggered the flight?

Grant


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you for the video. It was fair testing. 

All in all, both behaved like gentlemen and thats the most important part of it. 

It would be interesting to see these dogs being trained. 



Regards


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Enjoyable thread. The outcome was in no way surprising, but as Dons dogs are not bred to be man dogs I dont see any reason for Don to be upset. You judge a breeder by what they say they want to breed. If Don was promoting his bloodlines to be pig dogs and yet they are too scared to hit a hog then Dons a shit breeder. If I say my dogs are good for police but they go into avoidence when stressed then im a shit breeder. 
So what I really want to see is Dave to turn his car around, head back to Cali and video Dons dogs with some Hogs. 
Can you get onto that Dave? Thx.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks Don, Ariel and Dave for sharing the video.

Dave, if you are ever in Switzerland, You are welcome to try to get into our house - door unlocked, elder dog free. I know he'd put up a good show but how far you'd get, I wouldn't like to predict.

However, no "show", no special clothing. You would be at liberty to slam the door in the dog's face if you discerned a threat.

If you get to the dining room there'd be a good 5-course meal waiting for you!!

In protecton training the dog outs on command. If he is aggressive towards humans or animals - an out command works or a command such as "sit" checks him.

I don't think hr's protecting me - but if someone tries to hurt him he reacts accordingly. 

At 5 months in our training facility, someone entered the room and he charged aggressively to the door. Admittedly he attacked the pup and not the owner but my mate "checked" him.

i cannot see the benefit of training dogs to protect. Either they have it in their makeup or they don't. All that can be achieved is a dog that bites on command - not the worst scenario, however.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> i cannot see the benefit of training dogs to protect. Either they have it in their makeup or they don't. All that can be achieved is a dog that bites on command - not the worst scenario, however.


I think this says it all about dogs protecting. You cannot see the benefit for having a dog do this for you. I am sure for some applications you could see a benefit to a dog protecting someone else. It's personal preference, and then based on what the dog can do genetically and through training. The next thing that i agree with is that it is training. Either formal or informal the dog learns he can bite humans. Some are geared more towards it, but the dogs command may be the context someone is outside the door. Thus, a learned response when someone is outside the house. You now have made me believe untrained dogs can not protect...lol. I may argue from this point for a while.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

outcome wasn't a shocker to me, but i tend to bet on the long shots and underdogs, and that's probably why i hardly never win :-( 

this may be OT or maybe not, but one thing i learned was that even experienced reputable breeders may not know as much about their dogs as they think they do.

I say this because i'm sure Dave/Ariel had a chance to look around and checkout the area and get a quick look at how Don is raising his dogs. Just as i'm sure they have probably seen a few bad breeders in their time as well as the good ones, and both have the experience to recognize that when they see it. It shows in the dogs and shows in the facility. Low level breeders can't clean up their act with a couple good field days, and if the testers felt that Don was a lo life backyard junk dog breeder, they would've made that known to the list. they didn't so i assume he is the kind of breeder that someone could trust to find a good hunting dog with and i tip my hat to him.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not really. Large predators turn tail and seek safety from a single dog they could kill in a millisecond. Dog avoids a man and stands far enough away and studies the situation. What they all have in common is that something that has no business aggressing is doing it. They all have to sit back and study it some because, in ther mind, that is just not the way it works. Dog(train) bears or lions a few times and don't kill them....you got an animal that won't run or climb to avoid them. Training a dog does the same thing. It is simple behavior. *Neither a bear nor a lion has any reason to flee from a dog.....but they do when the dog acts in a way that is totally unnatural to the way they are used to.* It is all the same thing. Basic behavior.


For the sake of discussion, isn't that simple evolution? Generally speaking, even large predators do not take chances. Something standing up with no fear triggers a much different instinct than, say, something that runs away or shows hesitation. And evolutionarily speaking, animals that avoided said direct/fearless confrontation tended to survive.

Would the difference with dogs, or I suppose ANYTHING man bred for a purpose, be that they are being bred for certain traits? Hence you have dogs that are more inclined to do amazing things like fight/hunt/run to their deaths or ignore (or be bred away from) their instincts to stop.

Maybe what you are seeing in lions/(tigers?)/bears, is a consequence of natural selection. However just thinking aloud, you have hog dogs, Terriers, and the fighting breeds, pretty much bred to go INTO a fight rather than avoid it. Just from an outsider, the difference in part seems to be your dogs are bred to do that more naturally to hogs. Something like a Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, or German Shepherd (the Big Three, if you will) seem more naturally "built" to do that toward man. Not to mention exposure, foundation, training. I'd be curious to see what your dogs could do if somebody put the work into them for Sport/Police/K9/Protection work.

Overall though, I think with something bred toward manwork, in theory you _should_ have a different result largely because you are breeding them to do something very different than natural selection & evolution would lead a bear or lion to do when faced with a direct threat head-on. Still, I guess I am just curious because as I understand it Airedales WERE a pretty successful Police dog for some number of years. Just wondering if you were breeding those traits that make your dogs successful on hogs, only selecting them to be toward a sport/Police/security/protection type of goal if you might have more of a "natural" dog. That kind of seems like what the Shepherds are though. Of course, they still need a strong foundation and training to successfully do their job. Which sparks a whole lot of questions and interesting what-ifs.

Thanks for posting the videos (of the dogs, not the Rick Astley video link :-&) and to both parties for doing this, letting it be recorded & aired, and staying classy about it. There is something to be said about putting your money where your mouth is and staying humble in the face of winning or losing.

-Cheers


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Enjoyable thread. The outcome was in no way surprising, but as Dons dogs are not bred to be man dogs I dont see any reason for Don to be upset. You judge a breeder by what they say they want to breed. If Don was promoting his bloodlines to be pig dogs and yet they are too scared to hit a hog then Dons a shit breeder. If I say my dogs are good for police but they go into avoidence when stressed then im a shit breeder.
> So what I really want to see is Dave to turn his car around, head back to Cali and video Dons dogs with some Hogs.
> Can you get onto that Dave? Thx.


Christopher,

That's why I don't understand the whole purpose of the test?
The dogs aren't bred or trained for man work. WTF would you test them for man work and go on and on and on for hundreds of posts guessing what they might do?
I'm sure Don can come up with some video of his dales on hogs without Dave's help. Of course posting hog catching videos doesn't tend to be the PC thing to do.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's why I don't understand the whole purpose of the test?
> The dogs aren't bred or trained for man work. WTF would you test them for man work and go on and on and on for hundreds of posts guessing what they might do?


Don has repeatedly claimed on here because his dogs are BMF on animals, they will be the same on humans, no training required. That they are natural protection dogs who will commit to a fight with a man, the same way they commit to a fight with an animal.

That was the purpose of the test, to see if this was true.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

For Christopher. Password is "hunter".
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v401/hicntry/


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Don has repeatedly claimed on here because his dogs are BMF on animals, they will be the same on humans, no training required. That they are natural protection dogs who will commit to a fight with a man, the same way they commit to a fight with an animal.
> 
> That was the purpose of the test, to see if this was true.


 
Regardless, Don, allowed the test to happen and also allowed it to be posted... Didnt come making excuses for the dogs. To me, thats indicative of an honorable person.

However, I would like to see one of his dogs being properly worked. 

Also, I wonder what would be the dog's mindset if the test were to occur at night when its dark. 
From what I could see in the video, it seemed that the dogs just didnt know what was going on... I could be wrong, though. 


Regards


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Don has repeatedly claimed on here because his dogs are BMF on animals, they will be the same on humans, no training required. That they are natural protection dogs who will commit to a fight with a man, the same way they commit to a fight with an animal.
> 
> That was the purpose of the test, to see if this was true.


 

But I did learn that what people are seeing is just natural behavior displayed by many animals. It has nothing to do with man being the BMF in the chain. Saw that on the first scenario.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I also wonder about the dogs mindset since I always do the killing. That makes me the BMF in their eyes. LMAO Maybe they just can'r see me falling down and needing their help. LOL I know I felt like an idiot. Hunting is like anything else with dogs, it is a team sport. They find and detain, the BMF'ER comes in and does the killing. :grin:


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don you didn't fall down....you slowwwwwwly bent down and layed down :razz: 

BMF= Bones Made for Fosamax??


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

LOL! We all have days that make us feel like idiots. 

I congratulate you though. Not many people would have stepped up like you did and that's the mark of a person who walks the walk. 

Walking the walk is not always about succeeding.


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## michael carroll (Jan 19, 2009)

I would have like to have seen Dave do a runaway with one of the dogs. Nothing to do with protection but it would give some indication of the dogs qualities as for as manwork is concerned. Seems like a missed oportunity that would have proved interesting.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

michael carroll said:


> I would have like to have seen Dave do a runaway with one of the dogs. Nothing to do with protection but it would give some indication of the dogs qualities as for as manwork is concerned. Seems like a missed oportunity that would have proved interesting.



We did some other testing that we didn't video. There were two of the younger dogs that looked like they had a lot of promise. Griff and Jackie. We did some prey stuff, but no run away bites. I wouldn't think it would show much on most untrained dogs. What would you expect to see from it?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I would have enjoyed that as well... 

Or at least give them a couple of bites to see how they'd do and build them up from there.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> We did some other testing that we didn't video. There were two of the younger dogs that looked like they had a lot of promise. Griff and Jackie. We did some prey stuff, but no run away bites. I wouldn't think it would show much on most untrained dogs. What would you expect to see from it?


 
Disregard my last post. It was posted without reading what you wrote. 


Sorry


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Disregard my last post. It was posted without reading what you wrote.
> 
> 
> Sorry



NP.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Because of the way I have handled them regarding people aggression, I don't think Dave could get the older dogs to bite just to be biting. I know for a fact that holding a live rat up by the tail could get them to bite.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I didn't make a comment either way regarding this.



Tiago Fontes said:


> Regardless, Don, allowed the test to happen and also allowed it to be posted... Didnt come making excuses for the dogs. To me, thats indicative of an honorable person.


But I agree, Don stepped up and allowed the dogs to be tested. That's more than 99% of the people who claim "natural protection dogs" will do. 



> From what I could see in the video, it seemed that the dogs just didnt know what was going on... I could be wrong, though.


From what I could see the dogs were registering some sort of threat, or unusual event. It looked in the video like when Titan was first let out of the yard, he took a few steps towards Dave, but when Dave turned from Don to Titan and threatened him, Titan turned and ran.

I agree he didn't know what was going on, ie "human who isn't afraid but is coming at me". Most dogs don't, hence while I believe there may be a rare natural protector out there, I don't believe the vast majority of dogs who's owners claim they are, really are. Seen to many dogs tested, who reacted this exact same way. Lots of them will bark and put up some show, but when they realize the person is still coming at them, and not showing fear of them like they expected, they will turn tail.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Because of the way I have handled them regarding people aggression, I don't think Dave could get the older dogs to bite just to be biting. I know for a fact that holding a live rat up by the tail could get them to bite.



I agree with this. Says nothing about genetic ability, but prior training. Genetics showed through on your young female, and seemed pretty nice. Griff too, although he is out of different stock.

I do want to see them on some hogs though. When are you having me back out?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> We did some other testing that we didn't video. There were two of the younger dogs that looked like they had a lot of promise. Griff and Jackie. We did some prey stuff, but no run away bites. I wouldn't think it would show much on most untrained dogs. What would you expect to see from it?


How many of the dogs did you test, and did you do just prey/rag type tests, or did you test any of them for a more civil response, but letting them win if they responded?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Christopher,
> 
> That's why I don't understand the whole purpose of the test?
> The dogs aren't bred or trained for man work. WTF would you test them for man work and go on and on and on for hundreds of posts guessing what they might do?
> I'm sure Don can come up with some video of his dales *on* hogs without Dave's help. Of course posting *hog catching videos* doesn't tend to be the PC thing to do.


Don has catch dogs? Video please...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> How many of the dogs did you test, and did you do just prey/rag type tests, or did you test any of them for a more civil response, but letting them win if they responded?


If I was Don, I would have had Dave test some of the adults in this fashion.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

A scenario I would have found interesting to see, was if Don and the dog were together in the yard when Dave posed his attack, with Don advancing toward it. If there was team work there, I would think greater chance of the dog engaging....but Don down, out there in front....no chance. I would have fancied my chances in a scenario like that with a previous (formally untrained) gsd I owned. I had always kind of wrapped up territoriality and protection in one though.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> If I was Don, I would have had Dave test some of the adults in this fashion.


Why? They are not and never will be bite dogs, they are hunting dogs.

No point in you harping about hog video Joby, I Had to borrow a camera for this deal. Plus, I am nopt standing there taking pictures when the action starts. I have seenm people film with as many as three of their dogs getting killed while they are filming. Not exactly the same thing as doing bitework. Dave, I don't hunt as much as I used to by a long shot. I take Magnum with me by himself to track em up because it keeps him in check. If you want to go out, soon as the weather turns I will take him back out. The depredation permit I have on the 3000 acre parcel runs out at the end of De. Will probably renew it then.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why? They are not and never will be bite dogs, they are hunting dogs.
> 
> No point in you harping about hog video Joby, I Had to borrow a camera for this deal. Plus, I am nopt standing there taking pictures when the action starts. I have seenm people film with as many as three of their dogs getting killed while they are filming. Not exactly the same thing as doing bitework. Dave, I don't hunt as much as I used to by a long shot. I take Magnum with me by himself to track em up because it keeps him in check. If you want to go out, soon as the weather turns I will take him back out. The depredation permit I have on the 3000 acre parcel runs out at the end of De. Will probably renew it then.


Because I would, I am not saying you should have, (not really, but kinda)...To each his own... I am saying I would have, because I would be interested in that facet of my dogs, even if they were Airedales. 

As you once told me, and I believe to be true, the Airedale has proven to be a good breed for some things, functionally. You had specifically brought up the breed being used in Germany for military type dogs, that were traditionally, civil serious dogs...and the theory that they may not be able to do well in "sport" because of how serious they are.

It is just in my nature, that I would want to test for and seek out dogs that were more similar to the origins of the breed, in regards to manwork. Ones that were serious civil, and could hunt, although hunting would not be my main focus, as I do not have many opportunities to hunt with dogs.

I can respect the differences between us, I am hoping that your dogs are excellent hunting dogs. I can respect anyone who is breeding dogs smartly for some type of work, it is an uphill battle with most off breeds.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Diana Abel said:


> Don stood loyal to his dogs and Dave was a man of his word. My hat's off to both guys.


+1\\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Make that the British, not the German's, or both I think...

I have kind of read up on the history of the breed now, and do see manwork as a minor role in the dogs history. But I would still be interested in that facet, if I was too decide to get an Airedale...or 10


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I agree he didn't know what was going on, ie "human who isn't afraid but is coming at me". Most dogs don't, hence while I believe there may be a rare natural protector out there, I don't believe the vast majority of dogs who's owners claim they are, really are. Seen to many dogs tested, who reacted this exact same way. Lots of them will bark and put up some show, but when they realize the person is still coming at them, and not showing fear of them like they expected, they will turn tail.



Well said Kadi. You, among others put in a solid effort for breeding dogs specific to manwork. I don't imagine the success rate is very high, and this is with generations of targeted breeding and line breeding in the pedigrees. And I'm not talking about a dog that could work out for sport through heavy prey drive, or the ones that can utilize some weak nerves to create a defensive bite to build on. I'm talking that one or two dogs out of a few litters that just has "it". The dog that as a 4 month old puppy will spit out the leg sleeve as soon as the decoy has slipped it, and continue intense focus on the man. The one that doesn't bark at anyone or anything, and the one that you've never seen hackled up. As you know I've had the pleasure of being on the receiving end of Mac's bite work. Totally calm, full, and forever searching for the person in the suit while on the bite. (and enough pressure you wondered if your leg was gonna snap) Social enough that anyone could pet him, or handle him (at least when I saw him) and really afraid of nothing. I don't know if Mac has any built in protection, but he certainly wasn't afraid of anything.

Grant


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEb6sO7Evw&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAhgXjSktDI&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwKXSs9pApw&feature=player_embedded

Don break down and import a Von Erikson dog. Breed it to griffin and some of your other dogs. I am sure it will not hurt your lines. The added prey drive may even help for hunting.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's why I don't understand the whole purpose of the test?


As much as some people around here want to dress up this hog in a fancy dress and call it "classy", this was a good old fashioned call out. The Seed talked a bunch shit and Dave went to shut it down. It really is that simple.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEb6sO7Evw&feature=player_embedded
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAhgXjSktDI&feature=player_embedded
> 
> ...


They got a ton of prey Will, but, like me, it isn't focused on balls and food. Not a whole lot lights them up like an animal. In the protection world, hunt is separatd from prey, but it is still prey. Thse dogs will track game for miles, sight unseen, just to kill it. That is prey drive.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> As much as some people around here want to dress up this hog in a fancy dress and call it "classy", this was a good old fashioned call out. The Seed talked a bunch shit and Dave went to shut it down. It really is that simple.


I agree with that. It have never seen a call-out that went down quite like that though.

I was interested in it. As were a lot of people, there is a lot of pontification that goes on here, nice to see some of it put into a better perspective.


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## michael carroll (Jan 19, 2009)

Dave, I'm just curious what the dogs response would be if he saw you as fearful prey, rather then a dominate acting head on threat. I would expect the dog to give chase and maybe attempt a nip or bite if he had enough confidence.Just sort of test the waters so to speak.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEb6sO7Evw&feature=player_embedded
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAhgXjSktDI&feature=player_embedded
> 
> ...


Will, this is why it is hard to ellicit a strong response, if any, to rags and balls with my dogs. You just got to know what they value to get a response. There was a squirrel chattering while Dave was here and I thought about shooting it and putting it on the end of the rope instead of the towel. Can you guess which pup may be better suited for a ball?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

michael carroll said:


> Dave, I'm just curious what the dogs response would be if he saw you as fearful prey, rather then a dominate acting head on threat. I would expect the dog to give chase and maybe attempt a nip or bite if he had enough confidence.Just sort of test the waters so to speak.



It would have confused them as much as me moving at them. I am almost positive. They just don't get that it's okay to bite humans, from previous training. They would watch me run away and go back to what they were doing. The only way I think I would have gotten bit is if I went into a pen and started whipping a bitch. I can't remember the dogs name, but walking through one of the pens I was a little uncomfortable. He sure seemed like he'd bite the crap out of me if I hit his lady.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I dont think it has to be one or the other. I believe a dog that will chase a ball will have no promblem to eviscerate a squirrel.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> The only way I think I would have gotten bit is if I went into a pen and started whipping a bitch. I can't remember the dogs name, but walking through one of the pens I was a little uncomfortable. He sure seemed like he'd bite the crap out of me if I hit his lady.


Dave,

It sounds like the bitch is God(dess) and not Don?
No matter how much Don likes to think differently ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> I dont think it has to be one or the other. I believe a dog that will chase a ball will have no promblem to eviscerate a squirrel.


Not if you give it to them. But, that is not the point, the dogs have no interest in what Dave had to offer because they were brought up in this fashion. Dave had nothing they really valued to offer them. Even though Jackie hasn't been handled this way yest(being my future house dog) she only showed so so interst but that's what you guys do....build on that.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've never known of a terrier...well at least a little terrier that wasn't interested in a rag. Airedales must be so different to the jrts, borders etc. ??


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Just trying to get you to breed some sport/working dogs. Nothing else.

All this chatter has given me the bug to train one for sport.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Aril noticed, while Dave and I were playing "fool the dog", that the dog that fired up was Magnum. You can see some dogs breaking into a run in the upper side of the video. That is Magnum. He is actually the only one of the dogs that has showed aggression with people and is the one that was disqualified at 10 mo for rousting the tree judge. When we arrive at the tree, the judge was backed against a tree.

I did get Magnum out. He got up on the deck and tried to hike his leg on Ariel so I put him off the deck. He sat out in the yard and just stared at us most the time until I put him up so I could get Odin out.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I've never known of a terrier...well at least a little terrier that wasn't interested in a rag. Airedales must be so different to the jrts, borders etc. ??



More laid back, calmer, fewer kamikazi inclinations . After all there is hound in their back ground. 
The majority of the little bassids will chase anything that moves, dead or alive. Think 14lb Mal with no environmental issues. 
Quite possible the Dale would happily work a ball/tug if started early enough with the right trainer. 
Prey is prey IMO! Training is the difference. (for toy work, not necessarily man work):wink:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> More laid back, calmer, fewer kamikazi inclinations . After all there is hound in their back ground.
> The majority of the little bassids will chase anything that moves, dead or alive. Think 14lb Mal with no environmental issues.
> Quite possible the Dale would happily work a ball/tug if started early enough with the right trainer.
> Prey is prey IMO! Training is the difference. (for toy work, not necessarily man work):wink:


I hear you Bob, I thought hound soon as I posted my question.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Just trying to get you to breed some sport/working dogs. Nothing else.
> 
> All this chatter has given me the bug to train one for sport.


I am going to Will. That is what I am getting ready to do. That is also why I kept Jackie.....to bred to Griff. Jackie is 11 gen. Magnum is the only one that showed any aggression with people and the guy was just sitting in the bushes to judge the treeing. Jackies older brother BlackJack is th one that I knocked the crap out of for (test) biting me. Jackie is the pup I had to remove from being around the other pups because she liked to rumble and, while the others fought back, she was still putting it to them. One of the pups was picked up about the time this started and is going to Lisa Maze, as I understand it, for training. This is why I don't really care about the outcome as much as many think I should. I saw what I needed to see to have a better idea of what I need to do. What I saw is a natural behavior even with large predators. I can work with that now that I have seen it first hand. I also see that throwing squirrels to them is a bad idea oif I want them to do this.....unless everyone is willing to carry squirrel parts in their pocket.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why? They are not and never will be bite dogs, they are hunting dogs.
> .


Take it like the bleeding man you profess to be will ya ? Or shut up!

If you have good hunting dogs, then good.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Am I still on ignore or something :razz: ?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Maggie.

I made mention of you and the popcorn in the video. You are now obligated to come to America and visit all 6000 odd some members on the forum. that is our agreement. I kept up my end. Get on a row boat and come on over!!!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Someone going to put me up and entertain me ?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Someone going to put me up and entertain me ?


I think all 6000 odd members will do so. Also part of the agreement.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> As much as some people around here want to dress up this hog in a fancy dress and call it "classy", this was a good old fashioned call out. The Seed talked a bunch shit and Dave went to shut it down. It really is that simple.


I think the only animal here isn't a hog. It is you - a jackass. Hope that wasn't too classy for ya.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think all 6000 odd members will do so. Also part of the agreement.


What's the scenario ? As part of the agreement that I'm missing of course ?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I think the only animal here isn't a hog. It is you - a jackass. Hope that wasn't too classy for ya.


C'mon Lee, we ought to use this thread as a bonding experience, an experience for us all to move on from.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> What's the scenario ? As part of the agreement that I'm missing of course ?



I am making it all up. but you could come visit, since you inspired me to go for don's popcorn.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I am making it all up. but you could come visit, since you inspired me to go for don's popcorn.


I have a feeling Don would fight me harder...a lot harder than you for his popcorn .


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> C'mon Lee, we ought to use this thread as a bonding experience, an experience for us all to move on from.


That's why I tried to be "classy" and not say how I really feel about a slug kicking dirt in someone's face.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> That's why I tried to be "classy" and not say how I really feel about a slug kicking dirt in someones face.


Maybe you didn't read some of the previous interactions between Don and Chris. What goes around, comes around. Things are more square now for more than a few. It is a good time to move on, including Don. JMO of course.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Maybe you didn't read some of the previous interactions between Don and Chris. What goes around, comes around. Things are more square now for more than a few. It is a good time to move on, including Don. JMO of course.


I understand. I prefer Dave's humility on this whole debacle. JMO:smile:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I understand. I prefer Dave's humility on this whole debacle. JMO:smile:


Yeah Dave's pretty good at it isn't he ? For now :wink:.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Yeah Dave's pretty good at it isn't he ? For now :wink:.


The bigger person has no need to rub someone's nose in shit!


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Maggie.
> 
> I made mention of you and the popcorn in the video. You are now obligated to come to America and visit all 6000 odd some members on the forum. that is our agreement. I kept up my end. Get on a row boat and come on over!!!


 
No...Maggie has a temper like Janice!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwuGf7EGOxA&feature=related


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> The bigger person has no need to rub someone's nose in shit!


Very true. I was trying to come up with a profound proverb but all is escaping me. It is good though to take the flak which one has earned though, and rebutt with humour. That can be a good way forward.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maggie, just so you know, your not on ignore. Your just such and easy person to ignore. Have you tried the dating sites. You may have some luck on those if you lie.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> The bigger person has no need to rub someone's nose in shit!


Don't worry about me Lee. Appreciate the thought, but there is a good side to everything.....like we can be thankful we aren't Chistopher is the first thing that comes to mind. Some folks just are not worth getting to worked up over. Chistopher is one of them. There is nothing to rub my nose in anyway.....I learned a few things in this little session.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maggie, just so you know, your not on ignore. Your just such and easy person to ignore. Have you tried the dating sites. You may have some luck on those if you lie.


Hiya Don  why bother responding then if I am so easy to ignore ? YOU obviously use dating sites or is it your own board to effect ? YOU have a new gf and you live in the hills, where did you meet her ? Out pig hunting ?

No need to get catty, I don't feel good for you under the circumstances, I think you're a character, you just ain't showing any as yet.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't worry about me Lee. Appreciate the thought, but there is a good side to everything.....like we can be thankful we aren't Chistopher is the first thing that comes to mind. Some folks just are not worth getting to worked up over. Chistopher is one of them.


I'm not really all worked over that! My focus now is happy hour rum and cokes. Then I can really cut loose!\\/


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm not really all worked over that! My focus now is happy hour rum and cokes. Then I can really cut loose!\\/


Now that is a heck of an idea Lee. Think I will join you. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I want to take a minute here and than Nicole Stark. Nicole is the one that made this all happen. It was a great learning experience for me in more ways than one. I also know Nicole was having a tough time with all the BS, I do appreciate her patience on that count. Thank you Nicole!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I genuinely appreciate hearing (reading) that Don. Thank you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I genuinely appreciate hearing (reading) that Don. Thank you.


Nicole, as I said I really appreciate your contribution. I learned a lot from watching how this is done. I want to offer you the first pup out of (Hopefully) Griff and Natasha(Magnums littermate sister). After what I saw, I am reasonably sure I can have the pups coming after a sleeve or a suit(towel wrapped around a leg) with an aggressor by 12-14 weeks, in play of course. Shipping is not included. :grin:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nicole, as I said I really appreciate your contribution. I learned a lot from watching how this is done. I want to offer you the first pup out of (Hopefully) Griff and Natasha(Magnums littermate sister). After what I saw, I am reasonably sure I can have the pups coming after a sleeve or a suit(towel wrapped around a leg) with an aggressor by 12-14 weeks, in play of course. Shipping is not included. :grin:


Don,

I think it would be GREAT if Nicole got a Dale puppy and I think it has the potential to turn out to be a nice sport dog under HER training. Therefore 
Don "step away from the puppy" do NOT try to get it on a sleeve or suit or anything else.
Do NOT wait till it is 12-14 weeks old before you ship it.
Send it as close to 7-8 weeks as you can and let Nicole imprint and train it during this critical period. My 2 cents worth


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> I think it would be GREAT if Nicole got a Dale puppy and I think it has the potential to turn out to be a nice sport dog under HER training. Therefore
> Don "step away from the puppy" do NOT try to get it on a sleeve or suit or anything else.
> ...


Thomas, you guys are, IMHO, training based on totally skewed assumption on your parts. What I saw, I can fix. Much like I can sit on the tailgate of the truck having a few cold ones with my dogs hunting across country, totally comfortable in the fact they are not killing someones sheep, lambs or calves two miles away. Something few know how to train here....and something you can't train with new methods. What I saw happen is easily fixable.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What I saw happen is easily fixable.


How?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thomas, you guys are, IMHO, training based on totally skewed assumption on your parts. What I saw, I can fix. Much like I can sit on the tailgate of the truck having a few cold ones with my dogs hunting across country, totally comfortable in the fact they are not killing someones sheep, lambs or calves two miles away. Something few know how to train here....and something you can't train with new methods. What I saw happen is easily fixable.


Don,

I'm not making any assumption. I want any puppy at 8 weeks no matter where he comes from. You 'think" you can fix what you saw, but you thought your dogs would protect you too?
Hunting isn't sport or protection. Just because you can do one
doesn't mean you can do the other.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How?


That I will never tell T. I have already given y'all the rundown on what I saw going on. You will have to take it from there.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> I'm not making any assumption. I want any puppy at 8 weeks no matter where he comes from. You 'think" you can fix what you saw, but you thought your dogs would protect you too?
> Hunting isn't sport or protection. Just because you can do one
> doesn't mean you can do the other.


Thomas, all can say is you are not understanding what is really going on. I knew that in the first couple of minutes after I saw the reaction the dog had. It isn't hard to fix, but, you have to really know what is wrong before you can fix it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

been lots of "comments" but very few specific to the short 2 min of dog video .... 

too short to comment on ? so clear it doesn't need warrant any analysis ? good test .. of what ?? does it matter ?? dog was so fearful it never would have engaged in a million years so no reason to prolong the agony and maybe screw the poor fluff ball up for life by subjecting it to a real (but simulated) attack on its owner ??

if someone was approaching toward YOU, threatening YOU, would YOU close the gate and keep your dog from going with you or would you take your dog with you ??????

btw, was this a test to see if a guy could run a dog off, or if the dog was gonna protect (enter the fight and engage with teeth on assailant) its owner when under attack ? saw a lot of the former; little of the latter 
... guess that doesn't matter (just looking for a reaction and then blow the whistle ?)

hint ... 
from the dog's view, what part of the carjack was an attack on Don ???
if you're gonna assess a dogs behavior it helps to look at what the dog is seeing, not the overall scene you are watching from miles away on youtube 

you think a canine brain is able to connect the dots that a guy approaching (some yelling and posturing) from 30 yards away is attacking its owner ?????
- you think that dogs has a clue what is being said (popcorn talk), or just hearing noise ??
... obviously, the only time a dog would know what popcorn means is if it's the #1 treat on the menu
- did dave toss Don to the ground and attack him or did Don take a slo mo dive and lay down, that would NEVER have been paid off had it been a real dive 

not saying anything would have changed but the dog did NOT head for the hills when Don was down ... it slowly circled back to see what else was gonna go down

was either dog ever in DEFENSE ??  or was it pre avoidance ??  

not judging ... not guessing what would have happened any differently and not monday morning QB'ing and glad it happened .. i wasn't setting it up so my wishes don't mean squat, and maybe it was done this way out of concern for personal safety .... the Czechs woulda done it differently 

and like many others have written, BIG thanks to alcon for spending the time and money to do it !

///// just writing what i saw from a few thousand miles away
- a two second LOW level "attack" and NO attack whatsoever in the second scene
- and 2 dogs who wanted no part of Dave 

.....i just wanted to see some attack on an owner in a couple diff situations so that maybe people will stop posting :
.... "THAT dog ran off, but MY (insert : special "protective" or "highly trained") dog would never do that"


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

rick smith said:


> been lots of "comments" but very few specific to the short 2 min of dog video ....
> 
> too short to comment on ? so clear it doesn't need warrant any analysis ? good test .. of what ?? does it matter ?? dog was so fearful it never would have engaged in a million years so no reason to prolong the agony and maybe screw the poor fluff ball up for life by subjecting it to a real (but simulated) attack on its owner ??
> 
> ...


Rick. What are you saying? Don wanted to see if his dogs would protect him. They didn't. I could have punched don and hit him with a stick, knocked him down, etc. The same thing would have happened as far as the dog was concerned. I wish we had the video from a different angle to verify the dog headed away when I focused on it. It happened fast, and I think thats when he headed away, but I'd like to see that part too. If you want to see someone continue to run the dog around the yard after it has decided not to commit, I am not your guy. A-too fat to run that far and B-I think it's cruel to the dog. We did take the time to warm back up to Titan after this happened, so as not to leave him in an utter state of confusion about what new humans mean on Don's place.

You wrote a lot, but I don't get exactly what you meant. If I ever do something this dumb again, I would like the feedback you have so it would go better, even if it is from your perspective. If you have specific questions about how the dog reacted according to me, I can give opinions on that.

The dogs were in avoidance. Full blown. Not pre, not displacement. they were gone. When the dog stepped across don in the truck, I am sure he wasn't thinking about protecting Don. He was getting out of the way and fleeing to save himself.

I believe Don has done a good job of training them not to bite humans, which all along has been a goal of his. Once that's proven, what need is there to go further since that was what he was looking for.

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Don Turnipseed*  
_ What I saw happen is easily fixable.

_


Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How?



How would you fix it Terrasita? Like how did you get your dogs to bite your grandmother or whoever it was? What did you not do that Don did do? Pretty simple stuff. Have you got any dogs that bite without training. I have my Pay per view site up and I am looking for next weeks episode. Are you in?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> I believe Don has done a good job of training them not to bite humans, which all along has been a goal of his. Once that's proven, what need is there to go further since that was what he was looking for.


So Don's dogs had an initial or genetic propensity to bite humans?. I thought that people were saying that this is not common in dogs, to bite humans without training.

As to dogs biting without training, yes I have known a few. Decades back when I was a kid living in Africa our miniature poodle was a ferocious defender of her territiory. People (not tested on criminals with intent) were afraid to enter our property because she would and did bite. I have known a few dogs in my time that I would not be too keen to engage with when it came to their territory, which included their owners, bluff was not on their agenda, biting was. I have seen a cattle dog charge from under its owners car and bite someone on the leg.

Fortunately my cattle dog only arced up if there was a threat, it wasnt towards random strangers. It seemed to be triggered by specific body language. There was no training involved. I havent had another dog like her.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> So Don's dogs had an initial or genetic propensity to bite humans?



So you thought they wouldn't bite, or that they would? Can you link a post where you made a prediction prior to the test. Not a qualifying factor to discuss this, obviously, I am just curious what you thought.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thomas, all can say is you are not understanding what is really going on. I knew that in the first couple of minutes after I saw the reaction the dog had. It isn't hard to fix, but, you have to really know what is wrong before you can fix it.


Don,

What ever story you want to tell yourself. You've been raising/breeding Airedales for how many years? How many litters?
You needed Dave and Ariel to come and "test" your dogs before you recognized what the problem is?
Airedales used to do man work a lot, years ago and there are still a few out there. Some from your breeding might be trainable but ONLY if you are out of the picture. Test your breeding NOT your training/imprinting, by placing freshly weaned puppies with someone that knows what they're doing.
YOU don't


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Everything was set up the way I wanted. Did the dogs do what I expected. No. Do I think any of the dogs that have ever been tested and avoided have ever been fooled with a made up scenario, no. None of them. Do I think all dogs avoid out of fear after seeing the reaction? No, some probably no doubt, but many don't. The way this turned out gave me a far better understanding of what is happening than I would have ever gotten had the dog just bit Dave. For me, the outcome was far more beneficial bnecause they didn't bite or assume an aggressive posture.


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

So are you going to turm all your attention to breeding dogs for man work? Or is this just a little side project?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> What ever story you want to tell yourself. You've been raising/breeding Airedales for how many years? How many litters?
> You needed Dave and Ariel to come and "test" your dogs before you recognized what the problem is?
> ...


Precisely why I will never tell you how to correct the problem you folks are creating for yourselves. Possibly I can see what exactly is going on because the dogs in this yard are not just a dog I picked up somewhere and "think" I am reading their actions correctly. They are not a group of dogs just dropped off with a trainer for LE training that the trainer has never laid eyes on before. I know these dogs. I can watch them and tell in a heartbeat why they reacted the way they did. It is easily fixable as I said. Most of you are misreading what you are seeing so the training is wrong because it is tuned to what you "think" you are seeing. Hopefully Natasha will come into heat soon as she is with Griff. I do hate training, but, pups are more fun to work with anyway. Actually fixing this problem is about as difficult as it was knowing why the dogs won't go after a towel when they have been weaned on real game.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>> I know these dogs.>> DON>


I am pretty sure this is the talk that started the test , how well you know your dogs and that they would have to be choked off a offender, 
it didnt go like that


but now you say you know for sure why, because you KNOW these dogs, hmmmmm


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Don....before the test, you claimed how well you knew your dogs, and how sure you were of how they would react with "natural protectiveness". Now you want to claim how easy it would be for you to "train" the dog to fix it. That is a TOTALLY different method to judge a dog's ability to do any sort of protection work. Your dogs are now in with the 99.9% group that need to be TRAINED for the work....and even then it is no guarantee that the dog will have what it takes for real protection work. Instead of now just saying it is a "training issue", just accept the fact that your dogs are NOT natural protectors. ANY training you do along those lines is just trying to alter what the dog's NATURAL reactions were.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I do know these dogs. I have also nevr seen this stuff done in real life. Dogs are tested and all that, but, I can tell you, you are not fooling any dogs with made up scenarios. Yes, the dogs avoided Dave, can't argue that point. I do know what I saw and I also know it is a natural behavior I have seen in many animals. It is an easy fix if you understand the difference between natural behavior and fear. One can easily be controlled, the other can't.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Skip, here is the deal better explained. The dogs did what they did, that is a given, I am not saying I can change the dogs we tested. I am saying I can change any future pups from reacting that way as dogs. Maybe that will explain it better.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Skip, here is the deal better explained. The dogs did what they did, that is a given, I am not saying I can change the dogs we tested. I am saying I can change any future pups from reacting that way as dogs. Maybe that will explain it better.


Don.

I don't think you can say it any clearer than that. To make sure I understand you, you are not really fixing anything with the dogs we tested, just doing things different with your next batch of pups to not stifle any protectiveness they may have? Is this what you meant?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Precisely Dave. The dogs we tested are what they are...not much is going to change them.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> So you thought they wouldn't bite, or that they would? Can you link a post where you made a prediction prior to the test. Not a qualifying factor to discuss this, obviously, I am just curious what you thought.


I had no prediction. I only know one Airedale and he is an independent dog that would be very unlikely to bite anyone.

I was responding to your comment that Don had done a good job of training his dogs not to bite and was asking if that meant if you thought that without Don's training they would have the capacity to bite humans. 

From all that has gone on in this thread I would suspect not.

I have a cattle dog that is fearless when hunting and will attack with ferocity (not that I encourage this as personally I am not into hunting) but I would be 99.999% sure she would never bite a human, mind you nor would she run from them. So ferocity when hunting game is not something I neccesarily link with protecting territory or humans.

Did I stifle her protectiveness with my early training?- I dont know, it seemed to be embedded in the personality of the cattle dog I had that was protective.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I had no prediction. I only know one Airedale and he is an independent dog that would be very unlikely to bite anyone.
> 
> I was responding to your comment that Don had done a good job of training his dogs not to bite and was asking if that meant if you thought that without Don's training they would have the capacity to bite humans.
> 
> ...



It can't be argued that Don's dogs didn't bite. He has owned them since the womb. Therefore, he is responsible for them not biting, if they had the capacity genetically to do it in the first place. You, me, Don, and maybe even Jesus, (cause he isn't really up on airedales I hear) can't tell what genetics would do in his dog because of that fact. My guess from my experience, from seeing other dogs there, and Don's posts towards their training would suggest to me that if it was done different, the genetics might be there to bite without the desire to do so being suppressed. It could be argued then, and this is where the lines get blurred, that if he did things differently, then it is still training, and thus not protective by nature. 

Something I support and always have if you read through all the different threads and crap. It can be the best dog in the world genetically, and when you drop that metal chair on the floor next to his head as he's popping out of the womb, he or she may have problems with that throughout his life. Prove that is wrong or right and I'll give you $3.

Don did what needs to happen for us to have better dogs in the US. Thanks to him, Nicole and Ariel. I had fun once I realized my pretty face wasn't going to get ripped off.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Turnipseed*
> _What I saw happen is easily fixable._
> 
> ...


You can be really silly at times. My dogs have never bitten my mother and my grandmothers died when I was a child. My mother can read a dog and raised us with one that wasn't going to let anyone pick us up either. You don't get a dog to bite. They see the situation and they bite. I don't know what's happened to dogs but defense of handler, object guard, territorial defense were all instinct--not trained. The training part was to be able to to stop it and command it but it was based on instinct. On a specific level if you want to leave it that Don thought he was selecting his most confident for the test to establish something about his dogs, fine. As for a general proposition as to whether dogs have the instinct to guard their property or owners, this test isn't conclusive to that. Everyone was so surpised over the dog that bit the rapist intruder that was posted here because it was untrained. You scared a couple of old dogs that are raised in dog packs supposedly taught not to bite humans. I'm not even sure how that works. I haven't taught mine not to bite or to bite. The dog either has guard/protect in it or he doesn't. I wouldn't bother with trying to train it for livestock or man. I selected sound confident dogs and they live in the house with me. As puppies and young adults they are well socialized. The dog I saw didn't care about his territory or Don--just saving himself. First problem Don had was an 11 year old dog. A dog changes in nerves after age 8. Age 7 can be marginal. Second problem is how they are environmentally raised. Third, genetics. I don't know how its all so easily fixed without revamping the breeding program and how they are raised. I also don't know what's in them as far as territoriality and human pack as opposed to the dog pack. How many people on this site have dogs that bark when someone approaches the car either when you are in it or not? Its really bizarre to see one flee over the owner and out the window. Was it the same dog on the deck? It didn't seem like he even barked. You couldn't see his face and the video needed to be on the other side but it appeared that from the time he left the deck he was running away. As for my dog, an artificial set up at age 8---no. She's already proven herself for me and I don't have anything to prove to you or anyone else. If you are going to do the testing on an unconditioned dog, do it between ages 3-5 when they are at the height of their confidence and ability to handle pressure--not when they are on the down slope. You can search this site and find others who will say they've had that untrained dog bite in defense of handler. Are they all liars or somehow deluded? 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have done lots of these types of tests, as well as "testing" trained dogs...Things in the house, on the property, and in the car.

Lately, (the last 3-4 years) almost all the dogs have been trained in some fashion. This is due to the fact that almost all of my dog contact has come through training.

I have tested dogs, in the past, that have had "no training". There are dogs that will bite, and with very serious intent, that have never seen a sleeve, a suit, a whip, or a stick. Those dog reacted far differently than what I saw in the video. I do not know how much Don's system has affected that part of his dogs, I am positive, however that I could go out and find Airedales that would not show like that in a test, "trained" or not...how much is environment and how much is genetic, is the riddle with these things. 

I would have passed on purchasing Don's dogs if I was testing dogs to start up an Airedale breeding program, because my interests have little to do with hunting...I would find dogs that showed different things..I think that would be a sound decision....might I miss out on a diamond in the rough, it is possible...but the fact that his lines are so tightly bred, and the genes are probably set would make me hesitant to choose any, even if all of them were tested, and a few did better.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

> You can be really silly at times.


Yes. You also have this going for you, but it borders on less funny and more sad. You seem to be there a higher percentage of the time than me too.



> You don't get a dog to bite. They see the situation and they bite.


You are mistaken. Do you think all police dogs will bite out of the womb? Police don't operate on the premise that they drive their dogs to a scene and let them make a decision on who to bite or not.




> I don't know what's happened to dogs


True statement.




> You scared a couple of old dogs that are raised in dog packs supposedly taught not to bite humans. I'm not even sure how that works.


there was video, asked and answered. also read your own quote below about how the Second problem is how they are environmentally raised. You answered your own question. You can't even hear yourself



> First problem Don had was an 11 year old dog. A dog changes in nerves after age 8. Age 7 can be marginal.


So dogs won't bite after 8. News to a lot of police folks. And military folks, oh, and probably sport folks and home owners.



> Second problem is how they are environmentally raised.





> Third, genetics. I don't know how its all so easily fixed without revamping the breeding program and how they are raised.


You combine the thought of revamping the breeding with changing how they are raised. Can you explain what you think genetics are? Your thoughts are scattered at this point and I won't go further, except to point out....



> You can search this site and find others who will say they've had that untrained dog bite in defense of handler. Are they all liars or somehow deluded?


I take individuals as they are. Individuals. The only one I think in the categories you listed above is you at this point. Re read some of my posts and you will see that I believe untrained dogs will bite. Our perception of training is muddy and there isn't a clear line between nature and nurture in older dogs not raised in a sterile environment.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

OT as usual, but shouldn't matter for this thread 

pop quiz :
last year i worked with a bull terrier for six months.
was an angel around strangers.
was mostly an angel with the other bull terrier and the wife.
* unless it was with the husband, and would first bark and then clamp down on who ever got within teeth range, with less than a second between behaviors  
it was NOT in any way shape or form a "fear biter" ... dog had no fear of anything in it's body
husband was convinced it was "naturally protective"
was it ?

of course not, but how many people REALLy understand the difference between guarding and protection ?

so for all the WDF (minus PSD's) trainers :
is the OG a form of protection ? hell no, unless a basket or bucket learns how to threaten a dog 
is there much "protection work" being done in a ring sport or field trial ? hell no (defense of handler is close)
...so why do i always hear so much about "protection work" related to these sports ?
- they are bite sports that test OB, agility, maybe tracking skills, and controlled aggression, but NOT much of a test or display of protection training OR genetics

- for me, in that dogs MIND, when it sees the decoy it is NOT protecting the handler in any way shape or form in my dumb mind, and the handler is not an issue in it's head either ... just a background switch it has been conditioned to respond to 

- since i've never trained beyond a SchH1, i know i'm talking out my ass, so i guess i must be on another planet


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita, I think you make up half th stuff you say. I have had 11 and 12 year old dogs on hogs. I have had them on hogs as young as 9 mo. I picked two dogs that have never showed and people aggression. That is what I wanted to see. I did not pick Magnum because I have seen him show aggression. His pups have shown aggression to me as I stated.

I will agree with the fact dogs will bite and defend to protect. Dav and Ariel will both conferm that my dogs are not territorial. I have seen them show extreme aggrssion towards people in "real" situations. Some one on here said dogs are not capable of the thought proccess to decide to protect. It isn't a thought proccess, it is instinctual.....or we may as well admitt that mothers are not protecting their offspring because they don't have the capability of the thought proccess required. 

Terrasita, no, neither dog barked at all. Never made a sound. What does that tell you?

Lastly, I don't think I ever said I taught them not to "bite".
I said I put a knott on their head if they showed any "aggression" towards people. I would have to wait until they bite someone to teach them not to.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Terrasita, I think you make up half th stuff you say. I have had 11 and 12 year old dogs on hogs. I have had them on hogs as young as 9 mo. I picked two dogs that have never showed and people aggression. That is what I wanted to see. I did not pick Magnum because I have seen him show aggression. His pups have shown aggression to me as I stated.
> 
> I will agree with the fact dogs will bite and defend to protect. Dav and Ariel will both conferm that my dogs are not territorial. I have seen them show extreme aggrssion towards people in "real" situations. Some one on here said dogs are not capable of the thought proccess to decide to protect. It isn't a thought proccess, it is instinctual.....or we may as well admitt that mothers are not protecting their offspring because they don't have the capability of the thought proccess required.
> 
> ...


11 and 12 year old dogs that have been working hogs Don. Big difference. Dogs become more sensitive with age. You and I agree on one thing--instinct. Some dogs bark. Some don't. The camera was behind the dogs head and you could only see half his body. Some dogs will give a cold filxed stare and the body will tense. As for the territoriality. I'd think based on what you said, their territory is their yard and that's it.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Yes. You also have this going for you, but it borders on less funny and more sad. You seem to be there a higher percentage of the time than me too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No I think you read and see what you want. I know the dogs that I have lived with. You want to dispute what I say. You challenge anyone that says they have had a dog that was untrained that bit almost to the point of ridicule and now sad and funny. Good we agree on untrained dogs will bite to protect, guard whatever you want to call it. Good we agree that police dogs aren't worked off instinct but training and conditioning all their lives so I'm sure there's no problem with them continuing in their work. I bet its rare they take an 11 year old out on the street and say lets go to work as a patrol dog. You seemed to have missed the word "unconditioned." How they are raised--not as yard dogs, as start. How they are bred? Genetic spooky dogs not in the pedigree for a start and dogs that have certain traits to begin with. Why he didn't go with the Magnum offspring, I don't know. He's told you that he chose the two with no people aggression [another terms issue] but didn't choose the ones that have demonstrated people aggression. I'm not the one that's scattered. You spend a lot of time disputing something, yet you believe in it. I certainly wouldn't spend weeks in a pissing contest over what some unknown dog will do posting on various boards; fly across country just so I could prove the guy wrong and now its all apologies, back slaps and smooches.

T


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No I think you read and see what you want. I know the dogs that I have lived with. You want to dispute what I say. You challenge anyone that says they have had a dog that was untrained that bit almost to the point of ridicule and now sad and funny. Good we agree on untrained dogs will bite to protect, guard whatever you want to call it. Good we agree that police dogs aren't worked off instinct but training and conditioning all their lives so I'm sure there's no problem with them continuing in their work. I bet its rare they take an 11 year old out on the street and say lets go to work as a patrol dog. You seemed to have missed the word "unconditioned." How they are raised--not as yard dogs, as start. How they are bred? Genetic spooky dogs not in the pedigree for a start and dogs that have certain traits to begin with. Why he didn't go with the Magnum offspring, I don't know. He's told you that he chose the two with no people aggression [another terms issue] but didn't choose the ones that have demonstrated people aggression. I'm not the one that's scattered. You spend a lot of time disputing something, yet you believe in it. I certainly wouldn't spend weeks in a pissing contest over what some unknown dog will do posting on various boards; fly across country just so I could prove the guy wrong and now its all apologies, back slaps and smooches.
> 
> T



The back slaps and smooches are because he obviously enjoyed the sandwiches. You just don't seem to get it T.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I certainly wouldn't spend weeks in a pissing contest over what some unknown dog will do posting on various boards; fly across country just so I could prove the guy wrong and now its all apologies, back slaps and smooches.
> 
> T



No you wouldn't. You would sit on the sidelines and put your two cents in needed or not in a venue that you have no obvious experience or desire to find anything out. You've done it for the same amount of weeks we have done from your chair at home, your office, or your iPhone on a Zamboni. No difference in us, except you didn't get up and go find out whether they would bite or not. Whether you debate the affirmative or negative, you may have to get sweaty to find out which is true.

I have no apologies. I did slap Don's back. Had I smooched him, he would have punched me I am sure. He is a nice fella that did what he said he would and let me test his dogs. I respect that. 

Don't be upset because I don't value your opinion or input or have any respect for you in this matter. Just realize that there may be merit to me not valuing your opinion or input, because I know better. You don't see me saying ridiculous stuff on herding threads do you? 

Please just let it die. I will go back to my former opinion of "you are selling crazy, and I am not buying."

Take care,

D


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Two questions, if you two (Don & Dave, respectively) are willing & able to discuss:

Don, if you do anything else in the manwork realm with your dogs, do you think there is something to learn from others more involved in sport/protection/police work? And if so, do you see yourself seeking out information from or about the techniques used by the Michael Ellis', Lisa Maze's, Ivan B.'s, or whomever? I _do_ think you probably know your dogs better than the rest of us. Just wondering if there might be some juxtaposition between your knowledge of your dogs and the field of bitework/sport/protection/K9/whatever that has developed (largely with Malinois, German Shepherds, and Dutch Shepherds, but obviously encompassing others), or if you are planning on just sticking with the methods that have worked for your dogs in the past.

Dave, is it safe to say that you and Don, despite (because of?) the online bet/debate, came to an understanding AFTER the test? It seems like you seem to respect what Don's doing, and have at least indicated (from what I can gauge over the Internet) that there may be some potential to the dogs for this. Regardless, you two seem much more cordial and respectful of each other after having met and gone through with the test and sort of gotten to see each other's perspectives (agreeing to amicably disagree). Is that fair to say?

O.k., I lied. Third question . . . Dave, is there anything you saw in the dogs that may reflect on their ability to be developed for protection work? I would guess that's something that may only show itself if somebody like Nicole (or whomever) actually got a good prospect, raised/trained it from an early age, then gave it a try. Just curious. My apologies if that was discussed earlier and I somehow missed it.

-Cheers


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> No you wouldn't. You would sit on the sidelines and put your two cents in needed or not in a venue that you have no obvious experience or desire to find anything out. You've done it for the same amount of weeks we have done from your chair at home, your office, or your iPhone on a Zamboni. No difference in us, except you didn't get up and go find out whether they would bite or not. Whether you debate the affirmative or negative, you may have to get sweaty to find out which is true.
> 
> I have no apologies. I did slap Don's back. Had I smooched him, he would have punched me I am sure. He is a nice fella that did what he said he would and let me test his dogs. I respect that.
> 
> ...


Nahhh, I've not been on this one for weeks--just the last couple of days. I got bored with all the chest pounding and posturing and decided to check and and see how the dogs did once you guys set a date. I kinda thought they would show something. I'm pretty shocked by the car scene in particular. Once again, you assume I have no interest or haven't participated in the so called venue. You assume I haven't had dogs tested or worked in the venue. You're wrong. I think Don's dogs are kinda cute and interesting. All BS aside, if he lived within a couple of hours I'd invite him to bring out a couple of the pups to test in livestock work. And Dave, you have no ability to upset me and my world won't end that you don't so called respect me or believe anything I say. That's your prerogative. You're just a guy on my computer screen. None of this is that personal. I'm kinda interested in how Jackie is bred.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> The back slaps and smooches are because he obviously enjoyed the sandwiches. You just don't seem to get it T.



that's old school--"samiches":-D


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Dave, is it safe to say that you and Don, despite (because of?) the online bet/debate, came to an understanding AFTER the test? It seems like you seem to respect what Don's doing, and have at least indicated (from what I can gauge over the Internet) that there may be some potential to the dogs for this. Regardless, you two seem much more cordial and respectful of each other after having met and gone through with the test and sort of gotten to see each other's perspectives (agreeing to amicably disagree). Is that fair to say?
> 
> O.k., I lied. Third question . . . Dave, is there anything you saw in the dogs that may reflect on their ability to be developed for protection work? I would guess that's something that may only show itself if somebody like Nicole (or whomever) actually got a good prospect, raised/trained it from an early age, then gave it a try. Just curious. My apologies if that was discussed earlier and I somehow missed it.
> 
> -Cheers


David. 
A lot of the admittedly bad crap came from me when I thought Don was talking shit and not willing to back it up. That is easy to do. Don didn't do that, so I have respect for him for that. That and he seems like a pretty nice guy and likes dogs.

We'll have to wait and see what they can be. A couple younger ones showed some promise


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nicole, as I said I really appreciate your contribution. I learned a lot from watching how this is done. I want to offer you the first pup out of (Hopefully) Griff and Natasha(Magnums littermate sister). After what I saw, I am reasonably sure I can have the pups coming after a sleeve or a suit(towel wrapped around a leg) with an aggressor by 12-14 weeks, in play of course. Shipping is not included. :grin:


That's a more than generous offer Don. Perhaps someday I can take you up on the opportunity and explore this a bit further.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> David.
> A lot of the admittedly bad crap came from me when I thought Don was talking shit and not willing to back it up. That is easy to do. Don didn't do that, so I have respect for him for that. That and he seems like a pretty nice guy and likes dogs.


I think we might have a misunderstanding here. Where I come from if a challenge is met, that would mean that The Seed's dogs would have protected him. 

I truly get it about The Seed being a nice guy and not wanting to make him feel bad. But this wasn't Sophie's Choice. He wanted to do this and by his own admission, if things had gone the other way he would have rubbed it in. 

And I know damn well that you didn't buy that plane ticket because you were starting a new friend outreach program. ;-)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think we might have a misunderstanding here. Where I come from if a challenge is met, that would mean that The Seed's dogs would have protected him.
> 
> I truly get it about The Seed being a nice guy and not wanting to make him feel bad. But this wasn't Sophie's Choice. He wanted to do this and by his own admission, if things had gone the other way he would have rubbed it in.
> 
> And I know damn well that you didn't buy that plane ticket because you were starting a new friend outreach program. ;-)


If we would have met and had a duel. I would have shot him down, stabbed him, slung a rock and hit his head, etc and still had respect for him meeting me to let himself get killed (had I won). The challenge was met, as you say. He would have still had his honor for showing up. Had I lost, it wouldn't have mattered to me if he did rub it in because I would have been shot, stabbed or had my head caved in with a rock.

Hope that clears it up some.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> If we would have met and had a duel. I would have shot him down, stabbed him, slung a rock and hit his head, etc and still had respect for him meeting me to let himself get killed (had I won). The challenge was met, as you say. He would have still had his honor for showing up. Had I lost, it wouldn't have mattered to me if he did rub it in because I would have been shot, stabbed or had my head caved in with a rock.
> 
> Hope that clears it up some.


LMAO...Very clear and quite true. He could have packed the dogs up, burned the house down and left town. :razz:

But then I'm left with the age old question. If you fail to see the danger are you brave? ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think we might have a misunderstanding here. Where I come from if a challenge is met, that would mean that The Seed's dogs would have protected him.
> 
> I truly get it about The Seed being a nice guy and not wanting to make him feel bad. But this wasn't Sophie's Choice. He wanted to do this and by his own admission, if things had gone the other way he would have rubbed it in.
> 
> And I know damn well that you didn't buy that plane ticket because you were starting a new friend outreach program. ;-)


Like I said Christy, no one has to be gentle with me. I wouldn't have been had it gone the other way. At that point it wouldn't have been directed at Dave because he was here. It would have been directed at people like you sitting in safety behind your computer screen running their mouth. Give it your best shot Christy, I stlii learned a lot more than you did so in the end, it doesn't really matter what you got to say.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Betting line is open again.*

Lines start as follows...

Odds on the Duel are starting even.

Odds that Don does NOT actually own a set of dueling pistols is set at 5:1.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> *Betting line is open again.*
> 
> Lines start as follows...
> 
> ...


 
I am thinking something like...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfbAFgD2mLo


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> What ever story you want to tell yourself. You've been raising/breeding Airedales for how many years? How many litters?
> You needed Dave and Ariel to come and "test" your dogs before you recognized what the problem is?
> ...


Thomas,

You are awesome. That is all.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> *Betting line is open again.*
> 
> Lines start as follows...
> 
> ...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHa62K6LToU

One of my favorite duels. Not Rick Astley


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Give it your best shot Christy, I stlii learned a lot more than you did so in the end, it doesn't really matter what you got to say.


The Seed, your dogs failed to protect you. Right? That means that I already knew what you had to learn the hard way. Or the brave and nobel way, as some may perceive it. 

But honestly The Seed, I don't think you have learned a thing. I think the probability of your learning curve going from "my dogs will protect" to having your dog swan dive off your nuts and out of the window to you knowing how to "fix it", is about as probable as...well...your dogs protecting. 

If you really wanted to learn something from this, other than learning to enjoy the taste of crow, you would be asking, How did almost every person, that does something as worthless as sport, know my dogs weren't going to protect? :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHa62K6LToU
> 
> One of my favorite duels. Not Rick Astley


The line for that duel is set at 4:1 for bets on Don.

And the bet that Dave actually owns some type of sword is even money currently.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith
"to having your dog swan dive off your nuts and out of the window" [/QUOTE said:


> Now that's funny


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> The line for that duel is set at 4:1 for bets on Don.
> 
> And the bet that Dave actually owns some type of sword is even money currently.


Joby how about the odd on dueling harmonicas...one of my favoriite duel scenes. 

I am thinking Don may be a harmonica type of guy 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyvzfyqYm_s


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> The line for that duel is set at 4:1 for bets on Don.
> 
> And the bet that Dave actually owns some type of sword is even money currently.


I think this is more Dave's style ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1m-t_AAVpQ


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bill Monroe, Ernest Tubbs, Lefty Frizzel, Farron Young, Eddie Arnold, Jim Reeves, Patsy Cline....That's my drinkin music. Then, Nat King Cole, Johnny Ray, Jo Stafford, Dean Martin, The Platters....now that is for something else all together. :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Don't need dueling pistols guys, there is a ,44 hanging by the front door and an H&K .45 sitting in the freezer.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

who got biten? i betting on dave got his ass bit:mrgreen: by an airdale HAHAHA!

dont need any of those guns just make a flaming cocktail


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

kenneth roth said:


> who got biten? i betting on dave got his ass bit:mrgreen: by an airdale HAHAHA!
> 
> dont need any of those guns just make a flaming cocktail



May want to read some posts between 1-898.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> who got biten?


The Seed's ego.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Nahhh, I've not been on this one for weeks--just the last couple of days. I got bored with all the chest pounding and posturing and decided to check and and see how the dogs did once you guys set a date. I kinda thought they would show something. I'm pretty shocked by the car scene in particular. Once again, you assume I have no interest or haven't participated in the so called venue. You assume I haven't had dogs tested or worked in the venue. You're wrong. I think Don's dogs are kinda cute and interesting. All BS aside, if he lived within a couple of hours I'd invite him to bring out a couple of the pups to test in livestock work. And Dave, you have no ability to upset me and my world won't end that you don't so called respect me or believe anything I say. That's your prerogative. You're just a guy on my computer screen. None of this is that personal. I'm kinda interested in how Jackie is bred.
> 
> T


 
Oh shut it, please. Another annoying post just to prove a point...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Oh shut it, please. Another annoying post just to prove a point...


 
Which you didn't have to read. There is that ignore feature.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

96 more posts to go...How many threads on here have 1000 replies or more? just curious...


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> The Seed, your dogs failed to protect you. Right? That means that I already knew what you had to learn the hard way. Or the brave and nobel way, as some may perceive it.
> 
> But honestly The Seed, I don't think you have learned a thing. I think the probability of your learning curve going from "my dogs will protect" to having your dog swan dive off your nuts and out of the window to you knowing how to "fix it", is about as probable as...well...your dogs protecting.
> 
> If you really wanted to learn something from this, other than learning to enjoy the taste of crow, you would be asking, How did almost every person, that does something as worthless as sport, know my dogs weren't going to protect? :lol:


Chris,

You are a friggen poet.

Lisa


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

please PLEASE PLEASE!!!! stop. There is 91 pages of the same nonsense over and over and over and over and over again. Once the videos were posted and the relevant parties said their peace, this thread stop being entertaining. It has been even longer since it's been informative. This thread reminds me of a saying:

"You can put butter in a dead horses [other word for rear end], but what's the point?"

Let's move on and train some dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think many people that do not even really participate in sports, knew how this was gonna go as well..

I took a poll of everyone I knew through dogs, as I was awaiting the test, as I encountered them..

People that knew nothing of the past history, the dogs, or the people...Just the set up...a fair description of the dogs based on Don's descriptions, and a guess that Dave is a knowledgable and skilled decoy/helper/agitator. 

Only 1 person said that they "might" bite, out of about 35 people.

I also asked people that dont know much about dogs and people that have dogs, and have no done any kind of training with their own dogs in regards to bite work. That number of people was at least 35-40 as well. Many of those people said that they believed the dogs will bite to protect, over 1/2 I would say...

Having seen dogs "untrained" dogs that would have faired much better in the testing, I was thinking there was a small chance that the ultra-confident Airedales would have risen to the challenge, but it was under a 5% chance if I had to put a number on it..

I think almost anyone who has ever done bitework at all, let alone sport work, had this one pegged. Minus the hopefuls, and the terrier guys


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> please PLEASE PLEASE!!!! stop. There is 91 pages of the same nonsense over and over and over and over and over again. Once the videos were posted and the relevant parties said their peace, this thread stop being entertaining. It has been even longer since it's been informative. This thread reminds me of a saying:
> 
> "You can put butter in a dead horses [other word for rear end], but what's the point?"
> 
> Let's move on and train some dogs.


Brett we are shooting for 1000 posts now...thanks for your contribution..


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Brett we are shooting for 1000 posts now...thanks for your contribution..


Anything I can do to help. =D>


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Brett Bowen said:


> Anything I can do to help. =D>


That's the spirit! :smile:


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> That's the spirit! :smile:


you and spirits...are you blootered?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bump :-D .....


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> you and spirits...are you blootered?


I most certainly am not.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Brett Bowen said:


> please PLEASE PLEASE!!!! stop. There is 91 pages of the same nonsense over and over and over and over and over again. Once the videos were posted and the relevant parties said their peace, this thread stop being entertaining. It has been even longer since it's been informative. This thread reminds me of a saying:
> 
> "You can put butter in a dead horses [other word for rear end], but what's the point?"
> 
> Let's move on and train some dogs.


Brett, seems you have a choice, don't read it or go back and learn something before you train to much.

Joby, if I knew how had it was to act serious trying to fool a dog, I would have agred. Now I know and am not at all surprizedm at the outcome. You folks are not fooling any dog with this game stuff. On the other hand, since it has been made into a game, the real fact is that most dogs trained to bite this won't bite in a real situation off the field and out of a familiar training scenario either. Aside from that, the dogs are not avoiding biting you because you are a human and the baddest MF's walking the planet either. To many people been bitten by dogs to believe that. Y'all are living in a dream world of you think that is what is going on. It is simple natural behavior and you even see it in the large predators when the run from an aggressing 65lb dog. Why....because it is so far out of the norm it confuses them. I notoiced most went into avoidance when I brought that up. LOL


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Brett, seems you have a choice, don't read it or go back and learn something before you train to much.
> 
> Joby, if I knew how had it was to act serious trying to fool a dog, I would have agred. Now I know and am not at all surprizedm at the outcome. You folks are not fooling any dog with this game stuff. On the other hand, since it has been made into a game, the real fact is that most dogs trained to bite this won't bite in a real situation off the field and out of a familiar training scenario either. Aside from that, the dogs are not avoiding biting you because you are a human and the baddest MF's walking the planet either. To many people been bitten by dogs to believe that. Y'all are living in a dream world of you think that is what is going on. It is simple natural behavior and you even see it in the large predators when the run from an aggressing 65lb dog. Why....because it is so far out of the norm it confuses them. I notoiced most went into avoidance when I brought that up. LOL



Answers to this should take us over a 1000 posts and 30,000 views. Don't kick him too hard when he's down, but apparently he needs some kickin...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

To get out of a hole, you need to stop digging. 

Speaking of a dream world, you are delusional if you think based on the video that your dogs didn't straight up run away. Training in PSA for scenarios, I have seen dogs not engage the first time training a scenario because they weren't sure what to do, like what you imply. Nothing wrong with that either. They don't know English, they need to be taught what to do and what to expect. Your dogs looked very clear what they wanted to do: bail. The end. Again, compare the video of the first dog on this, who had never done this before. He is pretty clearly a little unsure about what is expected, but he's forward and wants to work. Not even remotely close on your dogs. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> If anyone wants to see another relatively green dog try the PSA car jacking for the first time, we have a German shepherd that's been coming out the last few weeks to our club. He has a little bit of Schutzhund foundation (mostly bite wedge/tug stuff), but this is him doing the car jacking for the first time as a comparison. Well, I say "comparison" because the dog is still very green and will need work, but there really is none. No prep work for this either, we just wanted to see where the dog was at and what he'd do. My dog happens to be in the second half of the video. He's probably done the car jacking maybe 10 times in training so he knows a bit better what is expected...still is a bit growly, but we're working on it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoFwpcF3ooQ


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Brett, seems you have a choice, don't read it or go back and learn something before you train to much.
> 
> Joby, if I knew how had it was to act serious trying to fool a dog, I would have agred. Now I know and am not at all surprizedm at the outcome. You folks are not fooling any dog with this game stuff. On the other hand, since it has been made into a game, the real fact is that most dogs trained to bite this won't bite in a real situation off the field and out of a familiar training scenario either.


Serious question for you then. Then if we project that, why do police dogs bite? For that matter, how do you get around that? I've talked to a few Police and trainers, and they pretty much seem to train in Mondio, FR, or SchH (only teach the dogs to avoid hits from what I've been told). Still, pretty much straight sport techniques with some task-specific changes.

How would you recommend not making it into a game? I'd also be curious of Dave thought the dogs ran because they were confused or because they got spooked by him. Your dogs were on their home turf, and it did not seem to help them in the test.



> Aside from that, the dogs are not avoiding biting you because you are a human and the baddest MF's walking the planet either. To many people been bitten by dogs to believe that.


There could be a million circumstances. Maybe a lot of those were where the dog had no place to hide (e.g. were on-leash, or in a house and went into a defensive mindset), or maybe the aggressor did something that showed fear or just pissed off a dog with the gumption to take it to the "bad guy," or just the fact there are millions and millions of dogs and a certain percent are mathematically going to be inclined to bite. Some even look forward to fighting people and love the threat.

I think part of it is confidence. Decoys can get inside a dog's head at least some times with just a glance. Natural behavior also dictates instinct. So when something projects that absolute confidence (a dog standing up to or chasing a bear, Dave in a bite suit not displaying a fearful reaction to the dogs, a Hyena chasing a Lion, etc.), most animals are hard-wired to avoid that. So in effect, you don't HAVE to be the BAMF on the planet to intimidate an animal, or human for that matter. Uber confidence projected on a situation (even more so if it's legit and can be backed up) can end things pretty quick in nature. It just seems logical to me dogs (yours or others) would be likely to be wired that way. Unless you were specifically breeding away from it.



> Y'all are living in a dream world of you think that is what is going on. It is simple natural behavior and you even see it in the large predators when the run from an aggressing 65lb dog. Why....because it is so far out of the norm it confuses them. I notoiced most went into avoidance when I brought that up. LOL


Maybe. I am just wondering if you can come to a concrete conclusion about that based on one experience. If you are right and that is the issue, then how do you overcome that though? Why not reach out to somebody like Michael Ellis or a decoy with a lot of experience in working dogs in manwork to test these theories out and see if they are seeing what you are and if this all pans out? You seemed to have learned a lot from one session with Dave, surely you could learn more by training with somebody who had been doing bitework for a while. Presumably there are good trainers/decoys out there who have trained dogs and how to work in a practical manner for work in the field, and it's not like you have to go all that far to read/hear-about or see proof some of these dogs actually DO bite in real situations off-field. I would have to imagine if you are going down this rout, there could be SOMETHING to be learned from doing so. If you are right, maybe they learn something from you as well. Plus, it sounds like Dave saw some potential in a few of your dogs, so it could be fun to see how they do.

-Cheers


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

You are SO right in that it is simple natural behavior..... there isnt much that is "natural" about protection work. Anyone breeding for it is, in most cases, breeding away from natural tendencies... 

I have to say, at first I was impressed with your response, now Im just shaking my head [-(


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I thought that simple territorial behaviour was natural. Untrained (bite work) dogs can and do bite, I know, I have had them and they got themselves (with consent) a mouthful on occasion. I have been redefining my definition of protection/territoriality, I think sometimes they interchange ?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Im not referring to just dogs and I didnt say anything about being trained or not... Im referring to basic animal behavior in response to Don's post on bears etc. Of course untrained dogs bite... did someone say they didnt? Ive had them too but I also know it depends on many factors... 

PS GSDs have historically been *bred* for protection work ie away from...

Ok Maggie, you updated your post and now I dont understand.... untrained but with consent?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Im not referring to just dogs and I didnt say anything about being trained or not... Im referring to basic animal behavior in response to Don's post on bears etc. Of course untrained dogs bite... did someone say they didnt? Ive had them too but I also know it depends on many factors...
> 
> PS GSDs have historically been *bred* for protection work ie away from...
> 
> Ok Maggie, you updated your post and now I dont understand.... untrained but with consent?


Tracey, I was not referring to your post, and my addition was to insert the bite work part. With consent I meant, I did not call him off until he had taken a bite.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Animals are animals...Dogs are animals..but I wouldn't use the word "natural" about dogs, comparing them to other types of animals in their behaviors.

What is "natural" about even breeding dogs? 

Natural for a dog is what is was bred for, and its environment, which includes some forms of training.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

DON how is that new male pup u got doing? you said you'er going to use him on some females to add new blood into your bloodline and said his parents have a sharper temperment.;-)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> DON how is that new male pup u got doing? you said you'er going to use him on some females to add new blood into your bloodline and said his parents have a sharper temperment.;-)


Are you being a smart ass ?


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

no don has a new male pup or had 1


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

here witch! http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f28/griffin-19757/


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> no don has a new male pup or had 1


Ok thanks. He's gonna need more than a new pup by the sounds of it LOL Sorry Don, bad taste I know.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> here witch! http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f28/griffin-19757/


 
No need to call me a witch, I'm just funning. :---)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> No need to call me a witch, I'm just funning. :---)



But you're a popcorn witch!! Maggie the good popcorn witch. Everyone says so. It's in the bathrooms and other annals of history!!!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> But you're a popcorn witch!! Maggie the good popcorn witch. Everyone says so. It's in the bathrooms and other annals of history!!!


What are annals ? did you mean anals ?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Sorry, jumped the gun!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Disregard that request thanks, found it. Hadn't seen that spelling before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Serious question for you then. Then if we project that, why do police dogs bite? For that matter, how do you get around that? I've talked to a few Police and trainers, and they pretty much seem to train in Mondio, FR, or SchH (only teach the dogs to avoid hits from what I've been told). Still, pretty much straight sport techniques with some task-specific changes.
> 
> How would you recommend not making it into a game? I'd also be curious of Dave thought the dogs ran because they were confused or because they got spooked by him. Your dogs were on their home turf, and it did not seem to help them in the test.
> 
> ...


Don't let Dave hear you say he's not got much experience in manwork and hasn't been doing bitework for a while. He might start to wonder what exactly he's been doing while training all those protection dogs for the past, what, 15 years or so?


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don't let Dave hear you say he's not got much experience in manwork and hasn't been doing bitework for a while. He might start to wonder what exactly he's been doing while training all those protection dogs for the past, what, 15 years or so?


I think you misunderstood me. I did not mean to imply Dave did not. Is Don planning on working with Dave on a consistent basis though? That was my question; is Don going to learn more from knowledgeable trainers/decoys/etc., including Dave or others with similar experience.

If Don's just planning on one session and using that as a basis for his entire learning of manwork, I think he's largely just relying on prior knowledge. If he's spending a larger amount of time learning from others about bitework (more from Dave or somebody else with experience), that is a bit different and would seem to be a potentially greater learning experience.

-Cheers


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don't let Dave hear you say he's not got much experience in manwork and hasn't been doing bitework for a while. He might start to wonder what exactly he's been doing while training all those protection dogs for the past, what, 15 years or so?



I don't think David Ruby was being negative. And besides. I only did a correspondence course in bitework!!! And an online course in tracking.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't think David Ruby was being negative. And besides. I only did a correspondence course in bitework!!! And an online course in tracking.


No, quite the opposite. If one day of working with you taught him that much, what could regular time with you or somebody else teach him? I really meant it to be taken in more of a positive manner.

-Cheers


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The Seed said:


> Now I know and am not at all surprizedm at the outcome. You folks are not fooling any dog with this game stuff. On the other hand, since it has been made into a game, the real fact is that most dogs trained to bite this won't bite in a real situation off the field and out of a familiar training scenario either.


It looks like The Seed makes his own fertilizer. He says the dogs didn't bite because the dogs knew he wasn't really afraid. But check out what the seed wrote on another forum


> T, Ed, it is asking and expecting a lot from the dogs. I think they will do fine myself or I may have not made the challenge. I am not good at showing fear, so I am going to show anger. That does trigger the dogs. Another time when I was out, I was not aware of something with 3 guys in the high country that the dogs sensed. They went after the guuys and I was showing no reaction one way or the other. Once when I was haveing road rage and hanging out the window screaming at the guys in another car, I had three dogs in the back of the van. The other driver came out of his car screaming also. I had three dogs going out my window teeth first and I was grabing fur as fast as I could. You never saw any one get in a car so quick. Thinking about these different incidents, of which there were several more, I am going to go with rage and anger rather than fear.
> Read more: http://workingairedale.proboards.co...eneral&thread=3435&page=1#27576#ixzz1YdjwWTtE
> 
> ​




Feel free to enjoy the irony of The Seed's Tales of Road Rage. 

Also go to the link and read the first posts that The Seed wrote about this on his Airedale board. A classic read that is spiced up by the best hype man since Flavor Flav!!! Ladies and Gentlemen....I introduce to you...... 

Thistledale



​


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> No, quite the opposite. If one day of working with you taught him that much, what could regular time with you or somebody else teach him? I really meant it to be taken in more of a positive manner.
> 
> -Cheers



David. I heard you the first time, I just try not to take myself too seriously. No offense taken and I agree with you.


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## michael carroll (Jan 19, 2009)

Don, is this what you're talking about? Just kidding

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKgLa2Sr5NE


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My, but that was good!!

I would have had an easier life if all my dogs were like that \\/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Please don't copy posts from other forums here. Thank you.



(We probably don't catch them all, but here's a good well-attended thread in which to repeat re-remind again.)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

So we're getting close to the One Thousandth post on this topic.
What kind of prize is going to be offered?
A free 8 week old Airedale puppy?
A week training with Dave?
A week training with Ariel?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> So we're getting close to the One Thousandth post on this topic.
> What kind of prize is going to be offered?
> A free 8 week old Airedale puppy?
> A week training with Dave?
> A week training with Ariel?



How about a week training your airedale puppy with Michael Ellis!! You make the call to him on that one, Thomas!!! Lol. 

If someone here wants to train with me for a couple days, in Ohio, they are welcome to do it in most cases. In fact, yes, the one thousandth poster can have 5 days training here in Ohio, with me. We can do dog training, english, math and some shooting fundamentals... January 16th will be the start date, and you will be required to do kennel care and shovel the parking lot!! Housing not included.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm going to lock it at 999 (there is my contribution). 

DFrost


(I'm not really going to do that)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have always been very interested in a dog's ability and desire to protect itself, and not by running away to fighting another day.

I personally would not think a dog that will NOT protect itself, would protect someone else...I suppose it is possible. 

I think that many dogs trained or untrained, that bite, in training or testing, are doing so because they are reacting to what is presented to them. Whether it is a challenge, a threat, or a game.

Don still doesnt seem to get it, thinks the dogs did not react becuase he was a bad actor, or that training is playing games...

Not all dogs are playing games, and in 99% of training, it is the decoy doing the acting, not the handler.

I personally from seeing the videos do think that Don's dogs DID recognize that Dave was not playing games, and they decided to high tail it out of there...they had no desire to get involved.

It would have been nice, if Don had the dog on a leash, and did not allow the dog to bail out of the truck. or Don came up to the gate, and had the dog onleash in front of him, encouraging him.

If Dave was allowed to or did test the dogs themselves, (not by playing games with them, or rag games) and not only their desire to protect Don, maybe Don would gain some knowledge of his dogs, and his eyes might open some. 

This was a specific call out, for sure. But Don could have turned it into something more, if he was interested. Like I said no downside for Don, he does not train or breed for those traits, and is comfortable with the wiggle room left open, to hold to his beliefs...

Confusion is one thing, inaction and retreat due to fear is another thing, it is easy for someone that can read dogs, to tell the difference. A dog that was only confused and did not think it was real in anyway, most likely would not run away...but luckily for Don, he left enough wiggle room in the tests to avoid really get to the "heart" of the matter on this aspect of the dogs..


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Agreed Joby. I'm sure you've seen dogs in more scenario based situations in PSA or PPD stuff that a dog may not engage the first time they go through a scenario because they are not sure what to do. Both dogs here looked very clearly what they wanted to do: run away. If his dogs were as people friendly as he claims and they thought Dave was not a serious threat, I would have expected them to run over to say hi instead of high tailing it in both situations.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Confusion is one thing, inaction and retreat due to fear is another thing, it is easy for someone that can read dogs, to tell the difference. A dog that was only confused and did not think it was real in anyway, most likely would not run away...but luckily for Don, he left enough wiggle room in the tests to avoid really get to the "heart" of the matter on this aspect of the dogs..


Yes that sounds reasonable. I know one of mine that I think would not bite but if presented with something like that would not run either. It would confuse her but not frighten her. I dont know what she would do if I was attacked for real because she has never been put in that situation.

I did have one once that would run when confronted like that but you better not turn your back because if you did she would turn like lightening and bite your retreating bum in an instant. Fear aggression I guess.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Agreed Joby. I'm sure you've seen dogs in more scenario based situations in PSA or PPD stuff that a dog may not engage the first time they go through a scenario because they are not sure what to do. Both dogs here looked very clearly what they wanted to do: run away. If his dogs were as people friendly as he claims and they thought Dave was not a serious threat, I would have expected them to run over to say hi instead of high tailing it in both situations.


Agreed...but I am not even talking about trained dogs, or scenario training. testing is the word here...

It is hard enough to expect an untrained dog to do much with a passive person that is not conveying a direct threat to the dog. That was a fool's test. (Not saying ANYTHING about DAVE here, which I am sure he knows.)

This was a specific call out/ challenge.
If I was truly interested in having someone test my untrained dogs, or I was truly interested in seeking out dogs that were untrained.......

I would post all the mature adults out, and take it from there....
And Maren I know we disagree about some things, so I will clarify that the dogs would not be posted out only to have someone shake a rag at them, or test their prey drive. (but would do that as well).

I would learn a ton about the individual dogs, in regards to what interests me personally. And if the line is is highly inbred, a family, with enough representatives there...I would learn about the line.

I would not bother to test whether the dogs would protect me, I would not expect them to.
But as a breed that faces danger and heads into it, I would be interested to see if that trait was applicable to people in any way, or just animals...

If I was breeding Airedales, my focus would be different, because of my interests.

Either Don is a genius, and knows more than he lets on, doesn't care, or has no clue, who knows...like I said it was a perfect test, to define one variable...and even that is being questioned now by him...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I'm going to lock it at 999 (there is my contribution).
> 
> DFrost
> 
> ...


Good Lord Frost, take some fiber to help you pass whatever is making you so angry. Also, could you send a picture of your face and an audio file with you saying. "I'm not wearing any pants" in your best old man voice...I think that would be a treat for the winners...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby, my term for what's happened is "cognitive dissonance."


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> How about a week training your airedale puppy with Michael Ellis!! You make the call to him on that one, Thomas!!! Lol.
> 
> If someone here wants to train with me for a couple days, in Ohio, they are welcome to do it in most cases. In fact, yes, the one thousandth poster can have 5 days training here in Ohio, with me. We can do dog training, english, math and some shooting fundamentals... January 16th will be the start date, and you will be required to do kennel care and shovel the parking lot!! Housing not included.


 
I can also offer a week of training as the prize. Unfortunately, Dave thinks he can out shoot me, so if you're wanting shooting fundamentals, you'll probably have to claim your prize from him. But, I don't have kennels to clean or a parking lot to shovel so I might be the better choice.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> You are SO right in that it is simple natural behavior..... there isnt much that is "natural" about protection work. Anyone breeding for it is, in most cases, breeding away from natural tendencies...
> 
> I have to say, at first I was impressed with your response, now Im just shaking my head [-(


Keep shaking your head Tracy. I will sat one thing and let you figure out the rest. Why do you start throwing cans of rocks around puppies instead of waiting until they are a year old? If no one can figure that out, it will do me no good to try and ex-plain anything because y'all been drinking the koolaid to long.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Keep shaking your head Tracy. I will sat one thing and let you figure out the rest. Why do you start throwing cans of rocks around puppies instead of waiting until they are a year old? If no one can figure that out, it will do me know good to try and ex-plain anything.


There do tend to be a couple differing philosophies regarding creating a foundation & exposing the dogs to things while they are young, like shaking cans/plastic-bottles of rocks and whatnot over/around dogs while they learn to bite, and letting the dog mature (~a year or so, probably varies) before doing that sort of testing. I've seen the can-of-rocks done more with people who are trying to prepare their dogs for a specific task/sport/whatever and the wait-a-year done more with breeders so they can decidedly NOT prepare their dogs to better see a clear snapshot of the genetics and not cover anything up with said can-shaking or whatnot. I also see the wait-and-see approach more so with Bulldog folk to be honest, and probably the slower maturing breeds in general, which I thought was at least in part to just sort of "let dogs be dogs" until they were mature enough and confident enough to handle the stress of higher-pressure work. However, the other side is you obviously lose that window to do any desensitization or hard-wiring into the developing mind of your dog. This conversation could probably easily evolve (devolve?) into some very _Brave New World_-type stuff.

I'd still be curious with your thought process and explanation. That's not talking smack or trying to belittle or argue with anybody.

-Cheers


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

michael carroll said:


> Don, is this what you're talking about? Just kidding
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKgLa2Sr5NE


Great vid.!! Now that the hunting dog is accustomed to the possibility of a deer or wild animal charging it - he will overcome his fear and become one hell of a hunting dog.Wait until you see this dog the next time --he will be the one doing the chasing--on that you can be rest assured!!! lol-\\/


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> Serious question for you then. Then if we project that, why do police dogs bite? For that matter, how do you get around that? I've talked to a few Police and trainers, and they pretty much seem to train in Mondio, FR, or SchH (only teach the dogs to avoid hits from what I've been told). Still, pretty much straight sport techniques with some task-specific changes.
> 
> How would you recommend not making it into a game? I'd also be curious of Dave thought the dogs ran because they were confused or because they got spooked by him. Your dogs were on their home turf, and it did not seem to help them in the test.
> 
> ...


David, I said alot of trained dogs won't bite off of th training field and away from the training mode. Sure, a lot of them will, but training doesn't mean they are bombproof. One session with Dave showed me a heck of a lot that cleared things up for me. What can I say, Dave was an excellent teacher. Luckily, Imdon't have to make wild guesses at why these dogs react a certain way. I can see what is going on at a glance. I knw them well, my mistake was thinking we could re-enact a scenario that would be believablem enough to fool a dog. Can't be done. That is one thing I learned. 
I know, everyone says "what do I know since I am not into bite sports. yadda, yadda, yadda." I know dogs and behavior. Love to watch behaviors. You got those here that say dogs are not bears, or lions. LOL Basic behaviors are pretty universal, I have given many similarities between dogs and people. People patted me on the back for going through with this. It was no big deal to me but people expect everyone to go into "avoidance" rather than be proven wrong. Most people spend most their lives in avoidance of potentially unpleasant situations....then condemn a dog for going into avoidance of a totally unnatural situation. Nothing changes. I heard all the same BS about being new to breeding when I started. Got kicked off numerous boards because of my breeding practices. Was told countless times I couldn't, but I did. I have talked to some of the emininent names in breeding and listened to why I can't....even Maren. The point is, you don't need a tone of experience if you know what you see if you know dogs. I don't need to go to some big name trainer to learn what I saw with Daves help. But, I may take a few pups to a big name for testing in the future. I take no ones word for anything in the dog world unless I see it myself. If I had, I would have quit breeding long ago.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Keep shaking your head Tracy. I will sat one thing and let you figure out the rest. Why do you start throwing cans of rocks around puppies instead of waiting until they are a year old? If no one can figure that out, it will do me no good to try and ex-plain anything because y'all been drinking the koolaid to long.


IF Im throwing cans of rocks at puppies, Im doing it for one reason, (and something usually done as a first exposure at 4wks) I want to see if I can scare them and if I can how quickly they will recover... then I never do it again... I find something else I can gain insight with.... whats your point?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

crosspost from off breed thread..seemed fitting for this thread as well..

*Joby wrote about Airedales.*

The first paragraph on the AKC website contains this as the first traditional function listed, 
_
*This breed was one of the first used for police duty in Germany and Great Britain* and has also been popular with Presidents, including Woodrow Wilson, Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge.
_
And the history ends with this....

.._....*Eventually, the Airedale became known as a dog that could do it all, and was used for wartime guard,* messenger duty, rodent control and hunting birds and game._


The AKC standard has no real mention officially of the traits required in regards to temperament, character..etc... that I could find, that would make it good for these. No real temperament section at all.

It does state this, as the first sentence in the informal "Is this the right breed for you" section.

_*The Airedale has a sweet disposition, but when challenged, is not afraid to stand up for himself. *_

And if you look at Wikipedia, they even quote an author, Albert Payson Terhune in the breed description, who so eloquently wrote the following about the breed..

_"Among the mine-pits of the Aire, the various groups of miners each sought to develop a dog which could outfight and outhunt and outthink the other miner's dogs. Tests of the first-named virtues were made in inter-mine dog fights. Bit by bit, thus, an active, strong, heroic, compactly graceful and clever dog was evolved – the earliest true form of the Airedale.
*He is swift, formidable, graceful, big of brain, an ideal chum and guard. ....To his master he is an adoring pal. To marauders he is a destructive lightning bolt."*
_
I am not a big fan of AKC or many aspects of decisions made to change, or to adhere to, the written standards of any breeds.

But I persoanlly would want an Airedale like the one described above. 

A confident fearless lightning bolt...that could guard my rural property if I so chose to have him do so

one that would have to be choked off the destroyed marauder if he wasn't trained to out....

Is that too much to ask for? is it all hype? or are most breeders just not interested in that aspect of their dogs?


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I can also offer a week of training as the prize. Unfortunately, Dave thinks he can out shoot me, so if you're wanting shooting fundamentals, you'll probably have to claim your prize from him. But, I don't have kennels to clean or a parking lot to shovel so I might be the better choice.


This is great. If joby wins, can we make it mandatory he award his prize to runner up due to his hogging of the posting ?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I can also offer a week of training as the prize. Unfortunately, Dave thinks he can out shoot me, so if you're wanting shooting fundamentals, you'll probably have to claim your prize from him. But, I don't have kennels to clean or a parking lot to shovel so I might be the better choice.



Ariel,

Training with you or kennel cleaning and snow shoveling with
Dave? That's not going to be a tough decision.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

40 more posts... I agree with you Thomas I am more inclined to choose Ariel. Dave is too demanding or so it seems plus she is way cuter than Dave!:wink:


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> 40 more posts... I agree with you Thomas I am more inclined to choose Ariel. Dave is too demanding or so it seems plus she is way cuter than Dave!:wink:


LOL. She is a better trainer too!!! I actually think she might give me a run for my money shooting, but I'll wait to see how that goes before I agree on that point.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> 40 more posts... I agree with you Thomas I am more inclined to choose Ariel. Dave is too demanding or so it seems plus she is way cuter than Dave!:wink:


Doug, take my word for it, you will learn more from Dave in a very short time training than most people on this thread even know.....But yes, Now I would pick Ariel because Dave already showed me what I needed to see.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

god forbid LOL...

If I win, I'll share...


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> god forbid LOL...
> 
> If I win, I'll share...


Fair compromise I suppose.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Doug, take my word for it, you will learn more from Dave in a very short time training than most people on this thread even know.....But yes, Now I would pick Ariel because Dave already showed me what I needed to see.


Do you mean, you're finished with Dave now and all he has to offer ?? LMAO LMAO

Who needs a shovel when you can have a jcb?


----------



## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Don what ya doing with griffin? sold him? what is his temperment so far?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Don what ya doing with griffin? sold him? what is his temperment so far?


Ken, I got him to refresh my lines for breeding basically. Now I am trying to get him bred, but, he is going to have to mature a bit more as he is a lot more dependent than my dogs. Since he is tightly line bred on both sides for bitework, I figure I may as well dabble in that with the pups.


----------



## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

i asked about Griffin like 3 pages ago ](*,)#-othats good addign new bloodlines into your bloodline..i was thinking u could breed him to your 5th gen and 8th or 10th gen


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> i asked about Griffin like 3 pages ago ](*,)#-othats good addign new bloodlines into your bloodline..i was thinking u could breed him to your 5th gen and 8th or 10th gen


Kenneth, I haven't read all the posts but I was gone most of yesterday and didn't get home until a bit before 11 today. Griff is in with Natasha, 10th gen and Magnum's sister


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Doug, take my word for it, you will learn more from Dave in a very short time training than most people on this thread even know.....But yes, Now I would pick Ariel because Dave already showed me what I needed to see.


Don,

With all respect to Dave. You learned about your dogs because
he tested the dogs and exposed the weakness in your training
(or lack of training). You didn't train with Dave, he tested your dogs IMO. Dave is a great decoy but Ariel is a MUCH better trainer.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> With all respect to Dave. You learned about your dogs because
> he tested the dogs and exposed the weakness in your training
> (or lack of training). You didn't train with Dave, he tested your dogs IMO. Dave is a great decoy but Ariel is a MUCH better trainer.


Thanx Thomas, you also said that airedales used to do bite work etc. but no more. Yet, you have a dobe. Pretty much the same thing isn't it?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thanx Thomas, you also said that airedales used to do bite work etc. but no more. Yet, you have a dobe. Pretty much the same thing isn't it?


Don,

Airedales were popular in Police and Sport work years ago. They aren't as popular, that doesn't mean there aren't Airedales that are capable of being trained. The same thing with Dobermanns. They're not as popular as they used to be (early 1980's) but there are Dobermanns capable of doing nice protection work with proper training. The bottom line IMO
if you want to promote everything that makes the Airedale a special breed? Train and trial one in Schutzhund or Ring OR
place one with someone who will.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> Airedales were popular in Police and Sport work years ago. They aren't as popular, that doesn't mean there aren't Airedales that are capable of being trained. The same thing with Dobermanns. They're not as popular as they used to be (early 1980's) but there are Dobermanns capable of doing nice protection work with proper training. The bottom line IMO
> if you want to promote everything that makes the Airedale a special breed? Train and trial one in Schutzhund or Ring OR
> place one with someone who will.


That is what I am planning on doing. But, first, I am going to condition some to not be surprised when people act a bit crazy....then I am going to give those away....provided they use Koehler of course. :grin: What? 26 more posts to go! That should do it.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That is what I am planning on doing. But, first, I am going to condition some to not be surprised when people act a bit crazy....then I am going to give those away....provided they use Koehler of course. :grin: What? 26 more posts to go! That should do it.


Don,

IF your dales aren't used to people acting crazy, when they live with you? I'm not sure how conditioning will help? ;-)
You need to get into the 21st Century....marker training and
operent conditioning


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well yes, but they are used to me and the way I act. To them, that is how "normal" people act.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> With all respect to Dave. You learned about your dogs because
> he tested the dogs and exposed the weakness in your training
> (or lack of training). You didn't train with Dave, he tested your dogs IMO. Dave is a great decoy but Ariel is a MUCH better trainer.



Thomas. By his original quote, he learned more from me than most people on the thread ever knew. This means he now knows more than you know, if you are one of most of those people. 

Is it raining, Josey Wales???


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Is it raining, Josey Wales???


_*Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?*_
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075029/quotes?qt0176140


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> _*Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?*_


I was feeling more like someone was pissing down my back...Oh yeah. and telling me it's raining.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> I was feeling more like someone was pissing down my back...Oh yeah. and telling me it's raining.


Dave you don't look that short? :grin:


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Dave you don't look that short? :grin:



American Pie. Stifler and the beer??? Deck. Roof??


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Damn you went from Josey Wales to American Pie in seconds...you are good Dave!


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Damn you went from Josey Wales to American Pie ...



.... to Judge Judy!
_
"I was feeling more like someone was pissing down my back...Oh yeah. and telling me it's raining."_



Oh, no, wait .... that's "Don't Pee on My Leg and Tell Me It's Raining."


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thomas. By his original quote, he learned more from me than most people on the thread ever knew. This means he now knows more than you know, if you are one of most of those people.
> 
> Is it raining, Josey Wales???


Dave,

I'm sure he learned more from you then he ever knew, but I kind of doubt that he knows as much as most of the people on this thread yet 
Ariel is STILL a better trainer AND better looking to boot ;-)


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4e8iAofnrw


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Gotchya now Dave..so we are back to Josey Wales !


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Don why would you even consider crossing over in to the bite sport market with yr dogs - for what reason - prove a point, new revenue stream...what, why.??

you have already done a good job with your breeding plan - *successful hunting dogs*, you can't have evrything in the same dog, thats why there are more than one breed of dog on the planet - sure you could do it but you would have to lose something else in your dogs in the process - all those years of selecting, breeding, selecting... etc

what are you thinking?? are you thinking??

do you want to be known as a guy you can go to to get a good dale for hunting or a guy you can go to to get a dog that is mediocre at both hunting and man work.

why you betraying your breed.

man work is 1 small dot on the working dog spectrum - it just happens to be over-represented on *this* forum, the vast majority of folks with practical working dogs neither know or care about bite sports or manwork.

your getting caught up in stupid sh!t, your losing your objectivity.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Don why would you even consider crossing over in to the bite sport market with yr dogs - for what reason - prove a point, new revenue stream...what, why.??
> 
> you have already done a good job with your breeding plan - *successful hunting dogs*, you can't have evrything in the same dog, thats why there are more than one breed of dog on the planet - sure you could do it but you would have to lose something else in your dogs in the process - all those years of selecting, breeding, selecting... etc
> 
> ...


I agree with Peter on this one....


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree with Peter on this one....


this doesn't mean we're friends allright


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> this doesn't mean we're friends allright


would not assume so...I don't really consider people friends, unless I actually am friends with them...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> would not assume so...I don't really consider people friends, unless I actually am friends with them...


 


now back to keeping my mouth shut


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> now back to keeping my mouth shut


sounds like a plan to me...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Don why would you even consider crossing over in to the bite sport market with yr dogs - for what reason - prove a point, new revenue stream...what, why.??
> 
> you have already done a good job with your breeding plan - *successful hunting dogs*, you can't have evrything in the same dog, thats why there are more than one breed of dog on the planet - sure you could do it but you would have to lose something else in your dogs in the process - all those years of selecting, breeding, selecting... etc
> 
> ...


No Peter, I got Griff for very specific reasons. One he was a stronger dog than readily availble here. Another was that he comes from a background of linebreeding over 50 years. I didn't buy hin because his background was bitework, I bought hime because he was a better dog than anything else I saw...which would have been scatter bred anyway. I pick the dog, not the title. Another thing, I don't put much stock in peoples opinions. It is true, opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.

Take Joby jumping up and agreeing. There are times I think Joby just likes to hear himself talk a lot of times. Joby tells countless tales about his dog and how rough she is. Even bred her once and got raked over the coals. Told countless stories about how other dogs, at least 2 or 3 imes a week, come after her and bite her while he is walking her. What crosses my mind with these stories? What kind of fear biter has Joby got that even in the dog world, 2 to 3 dogs week don't even have any respect for it. Small dogs of every breed. I judge a mexican or chinese restraunt by how many mexicans or chinese people eat there. I judge the strenghth of a dog first by how other dogs react around it....because dogs know dogs better than we ever will.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

DON: Back on page 94 Christopher said:



Christopher Smith said:


> It looks like The Seed makes his own fertilizer. He says the dogs didn't bite because the dogs knew he wasn't really afraid. But check out what the seed wrote on another forum
> 
> T, Ed, it is asking and expecting a lot from the dogs. I think they will do fine myself or I may have not made the challenge. I am not good at showing fear, so I am going to show anger. That does trigger the dogs. Another time when I was out, I was not aware of something with 3 guys in the high country that the dogs sensed. They went after the guuys and I was showing no reaction one way or the other. Once when I was haveing road rage and hanging out the window screaming at the guys in another car, I had three dogs in the back of the van. The other driver came out of his car screaming also. I had three dogs going out my window teeth first and I was grabing fur as fast as I could. You never saw any one get in a car so quick. Thinking about these different incidents, of which there were several more, I am going to go with rage and anger rather than fear.
> 
> ...


I don't see where you ever addressed Christopher's above post this on this thread. How do you explain the fact that what happened with Dave is a very opposite reaction from what you say happened in the past? I mean how do you explain your dog basically turning tail and running to get away from Dave who was pretty much doing the exact same thing you describe in the above scenario? Seems like your dog was definetely showing fear, not anger.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Susan, it was fear. I won't say it wasn't. Dogs react to things for a reason. I have answerd this in countless ways, but, for you I will give it one more shot. Dave and every other trainer believes the dogs fear "them". While many dogs are just fearfull and may well fear them, they are reading a lot of dogs wrong. What was plain to me is the dogs fear what is perceived as unatuaral behavior. They didn't fear Dave, per se. The scenario's never fooled them, but they have never seen anyone approach them in an aggressive posture. They start life as cute little thngs with everyone making over them talking in high pitches petting, more petting, loving, more loving...on and on. Then her comes Dave doing what he is doing. Yelling and carrying on. This is totally foreign to the dogs. Like the bears and lions, they chose to get just far enough away to watch and figure out what these two crazy people are doing. There wasn't a bark or a growl out of the dogs. They didn't go to the far corners of the yard. Odin was on a leash. but, would have gone no farther than Titan did. Dave was getting pretty close to the trauck when he bailed. No warning growl, no bark, just retreat to a safe distance and try and figure out what is going on. So, I say they are misreading a lot of dogs....that in turn, leads them to the wrong training to correct the problem. Bears and lions would not ever run from a dog if they were ophaned and raise around dogs from the time they were cubs. Why, because "they were conditined to them young"! Dogs are no different. Behavior is behavior. To overcome what I saw, requires conditioning pups at a very early age to people acting crazy and screaming and hollering. I am hesitant to recommend this because, people being people, they will virtually destoy a lot of pups being stupid. When Griff has pups I will condition a few pups and video them with people aggressing them. In some ways, it has a down side. You don't want them to learn to bite freely because someone is running toward them yelling, like a kid. They will have to bite only on command. Much like we all trained our pups to do when we were kids......and the dogs we trained were not bred for bitework. Mostly what my folks bought were collies. What I am saying is, you have to recognise the problem before you can solve it. Early conditioning will get you farther than several years of training. Pretty simple rally, but, I have always said, training dogs is not rocket science, but, you do have to understand what you are seeing.


----------



## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ....... Since he is tightly line bred on both sides for bitework, I figure I may as well dabble in that with the pups.


Were the parents, grandparents titled in any bitework venue?


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don that's not what I'm asking you.

In the scenario you described that Christopher quoted, you claim you had to hold your dogs back to keep them from attacking the man who approached your car because they were so full of rage, but in the exact same scenario with Dave your dog turned tail and bailed. In neither situation were your dogs trained for the scenario. Too bad there were no cameras with the road rage scenario because without cameras, and after what happened with Dave, at this juncture I really have no choice but to call bullshit on your road rage story.

Also one more thing. Remember what I said about your ass not being able to cash checks your mouth writes? If I were you I would stop trying to sell people on the idea that Dave, or any other person who trains protection dogs, has it all wrong when it comes to reading dogs regarding man work, since you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to man work. You just make yourself sound like a real dumb ass.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter

Why is it an either or choice? Why can't an airedale out of the same litter be TRAINED to do one or the other? This whole
"natural" protector or hunter is the problem. I don't think there is anything wrong with "the seeds" dogs or breeding program.
The problem is his unrealistic expectations of what the dogs should do with NO imprinting or training. IF he wants to explore the sport protection market? All he has to do is place
a couple with sport trainers and let them do the work.






Peter Cavallaro said:


> Don why would you even consider crossing over in to the bite sport market with yr dogs - for what reason - prove a point, new revenue stream...what, why.??
> 
> you have already done a good job with your breeding plan - *successful hunting dogs*, you can't have evrything in the same dog, thats why there are more than one breed of dog on the planet - sure you could do it but you would have to lose something else in your dogs in the process - all those years of selecting, breeding, selecting... etc
> 
> ...


----------



## tony mason (May 4, 2008)

Only need two more.


----------



## tony mason (May 4, 2008)

Only one more


----------



## tony mason (May 4, 2008)

Yesssss!!!!!!


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> Were the parents, grandparents titled in any bitework venue?


Have any of Don's breeding ever been titled in any bite work venue?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> Were the parents, grandparents titled in any bitework venue?


The sire was a sch III. Name was Danny von Thekla. I would have to look up the dams name but everything in the background on boths sides is titled. They are all on the EU website.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Have any of Don's breeding ever been titled in any bite work venue?


Thomas, how many of your dogs were titled when you got into bitesports? Better yet, how long have you been doing bitesports and how many titles has it got you?


----------



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> To overcome what I saw, requires conditioning pups at a very early age to people acting crazy and screaming and hollering. I am hesitant to recommend this because, people being people, they will virtually destoy a lot of pups being stupid. When Griff has pups I will condition a few pups and video them with people aggressing them.


I'm not really sure that's the way everybody conditions pups. I'm more familiar with Bulldog folk to be honest, however I do not think it is would be all that different. Regardless, what I've seen is pretty much just exposing the dogs to things. Others please feel free to correct me (this is more about learning & sharing ideas, not about me trying to be right) a lot of what I've seen of the early imprinting is getting the dog used to biting and channeling/enjoying toward biting, fighting the man-with/rag/man-in-suit, and just wiring them to do the job. I know, pretty basic, huh? Kind of like giving your kid a set of Lego's to foster a sense of enjoyment out of building stuff, or giving your dogs a dead squirrel so they get a feel for prey/hunting work (at least to my understanding).

Anyway, there's a point. I do not get the impression that Sport/Police trainers just act crazy and scream or holler for the sake of exposing dogs to nutters. I think they have a firm plan in mind and are looking for specific things, and reading the dog will tell them various things about the dog, how to push or pull back, when to keep going and when to stop. Sure, some probably do just act nuts to try and desensitize the dog to X, Y, or Z. If you watch, there is also a lot of the decoy being calm once the dog's biting, reassuring them, trying to build confidence, y'know, _decoy_ stuff (they can talk to that more than I can). It's not all acting crazy for the sake of being nutty. I think there is quite a bit more to it than that, and various decoys/agitators have differing views and abilities (not to mention they are seeing things you are not from your end of the dog during all this).

All I'm saying is there are reasons for what they do. Whether you agree with them or not, these tactics developed for a reason. I am just kind of saying if you are going to dabble in this, it may benefit you and the dogs to spend more time with Dave a/o others to learn what they are doing, why, what they are looking for, learn more about doing X, Y, or Z or A, B, or C happens (in general), then how that may or may not apply to your dogs, a/o how you can change it to work with how your dogs are wired.

Also, I think part of the problem people are having with your view of sport-as-games and dogs not being fooled is, honestly, the results. Results do matter. If all we see is video of a sport dog biting and your dogs running, even though there may be good reasons for that and maybe your dogs can be great, we as the general audience only see one thing. The much maligned sport dog bites, and the alleged natural protector runs away. It may not be entirely fair, and maybe if you work with somebody like Dave with a young pup in a year from now, we have a different result. That said, given this one isolated incident as the only representation, I think most people are going to happily "drink the Kool-Aid." I do not think you can really fault them for that either. Especially since the person who helped you learn so much (paraphrasing you) was a decoy who I believe represents the sport side of thing (kind of guessing, not sure what decoy/agitation work Dave normally does).

-Cheers


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I agree with Don on this one...

If I was looking for an Airedale that would dispatch marauders like a lighting bolt from Thor himself, I doubt sport titles would enter the equation. Although, I would not look for them in Don's yard either...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Don that's not what I'm asking you.
> 
> In the scenario you described that Christopher quoted, you claim you had to hold your dogs back to keep them from attacking the man who approached your car because they were so full of rage, but in the exact same scenario with Dave your dog turned tail and bailed. In neither situation were your dogs trained for the scenario. Too bad there were no cameras with the road rage scenario because without cameras, and after what happened with Dave, at this juncture I really have no choice but to call bullshit on your road rage story.
> 
> Also one more thing. Remember what I said about your ass not being able to cash checks your mouth writes? If I were you I would stop trying to sell people on the idea that Dave, or any other person who trains protection dogs, has it all wrong when it comes to reading dogs regarding man work, since you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to man work. You just make yourself sound like a real dumb ass.


Actually Susan, they were almost out the window on the edge of a Hwy in a parking lot. They were growling but heard the guy screaming....along with me. They were in the back of a van with no winows. It was real and they immediately reacted to it. You can call all the bullshit you want because you were not the one trying to hang onto the dogs. That threat was disarmed when the guy saw all the teeth coming out the window. He said this was bullshit as he quickly got back in his car also. :grin: 

I didn't say trainers were misreading all dogs. I think in my last post to you that was clarified. So, you have to wonder how many dogs are misread overall. Besides dalrlin, you don't have to know sport work to read a dog. Lijke I said Susan, I will be the only one that really learns anything from this because you are all living happily in you fish bowls.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Susan, it was fear. I won't say it wasn't. Dogs react to things for a reason. I have answerd this in countless ways, but, for you I will give it one more shot. Dave and every other trainer believes the dogs fear "them". While many dogs are just fearfull and may well fear them, they are reading a lot of dogs wrong. What was plain to me is the dogs fear what is perceived as unatuaral behavior. They didn't fear Dave, per se. The scenario's never fooled them, but they have never seen anyone approach them in an aggressive posture. They start life as cute little thngs with everyone making over them talking in high pitches petting, more petting, loving, more loving...on and on. Then her comes Dave doing what he is doing. Yelling and carrying on. This is totally foreign to the dogs. Like the bears and lions, they chose to get just far enough away to watch and figure out what these two crazy people are doing. There wasn't a bark or a growl out of the dogs. They didn't go to the far corners of the yard. Odin was on a leash. but, would have gone no farther than Titan did. Dave was getting pretty close to the trauck when he bailed. No warning growl, no bark, just retreat to a safe distance and try and figure out what is going on. So, I say they are misreading a lot of dogs....that in turn, leads them to the wrong training to correct the problem. Bears and lions would not ever run from a dog if they were ophaned and raise around dogs from the time they were cubs. Why, because "they were conditined to them young"! Dogs are no different. Behavior is behavior. To overcome what I saw, requires conditioning pups at a very early age to people acting crazy and screaming and hollering. I am hesitant to recommend this because, people being people, they will virtually destoy a lot of pups being stupid. When Griff has pups I will condition a few pups and video them with people aggressing them. In some ways, it has a down side. You don't want them to learn to bite freely because someone is running toward them yelling, like a kid. They will have to bite only on command. Much like we all trained our pups to do when we were kids......and the dogs we trained were not bred for bitework. Mostly what my folks bought were collies. What I am saying is, you have to recognise the problem before you can solve it. Early conditioning will get you farther than several years of training. Pretty simple rally, but, I have always said, training dogs is not rocket science, but, you do have to understand what you are seeing.



You consistently make the mistake of thinking you know what others mammals are thinking, believing or what their behavior represents. Humans and dogs included. I can confirm this for sure with me. Your assumptions of what I think are wrong. I assume the fear is based on one of several things, not just me. Stick, me, lack of socialization, yelling, etc. My training experience would lead me to believe you are wrong about dogs in general and yours specifically, from most of your posts and your dogs in person. I do this job very well, and you are just plain insulting about what I think and do.

I'd like to point out specifically to this, the only reason Odin didn't run to San Jose was that i didn't continue to pursue OR LET GO OF HIS LEASH. I had to grab his leash, remember, so you could get him back under control and back into the yard. Shame the video didn't continue that far so you could see your trapped dog, scared of being on a leash, still not biting me, while I helped you out. 

You are out of your depth with this and need to get help from a trainer, or you will spend another 20 years and still have dogs that will not bite, or will bite everything inappropriately. You have good intentions, but will most likely cause more problems. 

Think of a job you have never done. Think about walking in and doing it without training and making assumptions like you do here. At an entry level job, you'll lose sales, and could probably bring a fortune 500 company to it's knees, if they didn't fire you quick enough. Doesn't even have to be a job as complex as rocket science.

I don't want to be mean about this, but by virtue of this thread being here, and other people reading it, I am not going to stay silent and have them believe by my silence I agree with you in any way, shape or form. 

I actually believe you like making adversarial relationships more than friends. Your loss in life.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually Susan, they were almost out the window on the edge of a Hwy in a parking lot. They were growling but heard the guy screaming....along with me. They were in the back of a van with no winows. It was real and they immediately reacted to it. You can call all the bullshit you want because you were not the one trying to hang onto the dogs. That threat was disarmed when the guy saw all the teeth coming out the window. He said this was bullshit as he quickly got back in his car also. :grin:


You should have posted video of that instead. 



> Lijke I said Susan, I will be the only one that really learns anything from this because you are all living happily in you fish bowls.


Well, to be fair, you have to admit they DO live in fish bowls where their dogs bite the bad guy, right? 

All joking aside, they are probably going to "live in their fish bowls" until/unless you show them something working better. Why should they? I also disagree that you are the only person who can/will learn something from this. Hence why I'd be curious to see how your dogs do if somebody else raised them for bitework (sport, protection, whatever) and how your thoughts & ideas mesh (or not) if you work more with Dave or somebody similar. Maybe that's just me.

-Cheers


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thomas, how many of your dogs were titled when you got into bitesports? Better yet, how long have you been doing bitesports and how many titles has it got you?



Don,

None of my Dogs were titled before I got into bite sports. All are HOT. Got into PP about 15 years ago. First sport title maybe twelve years ago. Total titles? I'm not sure.
On the other hand. I'm not breeding. I'm not promoting
my kennel (don't have one) I'm not selling puppies or making claims about any of my dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> None of my Dogs were titled before I got into bite sports. All are HOT. Got into PP about 15 years ago. First sport title maybe twelve years ago. Total titles? I'm not sure.
> On the other hand. I'm not breeding. I'm not promoting
> my kennel (don't have one) I'm not selling puppies or making claims about any of my dogs.


Thomas, I did not know you were into PP... LOL 

Did you happen to encounter any good dogs, and/or dogs with good training, during your involvement in PP? just curious...or did all the dogs, and all the people suck?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Thomas, I did not know you were into PP... LOL
> 
> Did you happen to encounter any good dogs, and/or dogs with good training, during your involvement in PP? just curious...or did all the dogs, and all the people suck?


Joby

I didn't meet any PP trainers that sucked until I got on the Internet 
The first PP trainer I started to work with my male Dobermann
Sirius was the late John Germeroth he bred American Bull Dogs under the High Country kennel name. His widow Deb is still my Vet. John actually gave me a female AB puppy who I named Cathbodua, Who I lost last year. I trained with John at his house on Saturdays for over a year. Small group of 8-10 people and mainly Bull dogs with one Rottweiler and my Dobermann.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Ruby


> All I'm saying is there are reasons for what they do. Whether you agree with them or not, these tactics developed for a reason. I am just kind of saying if you are going to dabble in this, it may benefit you and the dogs to spend more time with Dave a/o others to learn what they are doing, why, what they are looking for, learn more about doing X, Y, or Z or A, B, or C happens (in general), then how that may or may not apply to your dogs, a/o how you can change it to work with how your dogs are wired.


Been there and done that David. Already got that Tshirt. Wasted the first 3 years listening, and breeding, according to the experts. Dave was of great benefit to me. I got to see what I needed to see. Past that, I don't need the baggage that come with people that think they know everything. I have a ton of experience in reading dogs. Don't need sportwork experience for that. I have seen more dogs in true, life and death situations that the rest of you. I know how dogs react to situations. There are just too many differences in the way I handle dogs, compared to the way dogs are handled today, for me to contend with. It is doubtfull that anyone will condition 5 and 6 week old pups to an aggressor. Today, they socialize by taking them to be around "normal" people etc Taking them to different places, hearing different noises. Everyone is afraid to do stuff with pups. In the end, I may have to ask for advice on how to get around something right here on WDF. At that point, I will thn sift through the 50 different way to correct somethng. So, David, you can see were the rub is, even the more experienced never agree on anything. That is supposed to help me how?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don

You are the most "kennel blind" person I've ever encountered.
All these "years of experience reading dogs" and you didn't see
your dogs heading for the hills when Dave tested them?
Now it's all excuses and explanations and rationalizations :-(


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> You consistently make the mistake of thinking you know what others mammals are thinking, believing or what their behavior represents. Humans and dogs included. I can confirm this for sure with me. Your assumptions of what I think are wrong. I assume the fear is based on one of several things, not just me. Stick, me, lack of socialization, yelling, etc. My training experience would lead me to believe you are wrong about dogs in general and yours specifically, from most of your posts and your dogs in person. I do this job very well, and you are just plain insulting about what I think and do.
> 
> I'd like to point out specifically to this, the only reason Odin didn't run to San Jose was that i didn't continue to pursue OR LET GO OF HIS LEASH. I had to grab his leash, remember, so you could get him back under control and back into the yard. Shame the video didn't continue that far so you could see your trapped dog, scared of being on a leash, still not biting me, while I helped you out.
> 
> ...


Dave, I am not knowing anything. I just see things a bit different and I know the dogs. Odin was fighting the leash only because you were 5' in front of him and he was restrained. He would have moved off no farther than Titan did and watched. You just think he would have kept running....so you are guessing also. I am more than glad you came out. I did learn a lot. One of the things is that trainers judge the protectiveness in a dog with a phoney scenario that won't fool any dog. You see it as proof positive, but, here on earth, it only proves a dog knows that it is an act and is not going to react to it the same as a real threat. That is what I see, you see it as being real. I can accept that you want to believe it. It is ok, but this is why I really don't need the further assistance of people with experience. Like I said, I got this tee shirt when I listened to the experienced breeders and wasted the first 3 years of breeding.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I assume the fear is based on one of several things, not just me. Stick, me, lack of socialization, yelling, etc. My training experience would lead me to believe you are wrong about dogs in general and yours specifically, from most of your posts and your dogs in person. I do this job very well, and you are just plain insulting about what I think and do.
> 
> I'd like to point out specifically to this, the only reason Odin didn't run to San Jose was that i didn't continue to pursue OR LET GO OF HIS LEASH. I had to grab his leash, remember, so you could get him back under control and back into the yard. Shame the video didn't continue that far so you could see your trapped dog, scared of being on a leash, still not biting me, while I helped you out.


I think if that was the response from the dog, given that you did not (I think) have to dig very deeply, into your bag of tricks...That could quite possibly also be an issue with the genetics, as opposed to flat out ruining the dogs by his raising them.

I do not think Don does a whole lot with the dogs, I picture them living in a zoo like setting, going out and hunting occasionally, and being a good ole' truck dog..I doubt he is messing around and doing things that would flat out ruin the dogs all that much, except maybe his hands on treatment of some of them. I cannot see that causing the reaction you describe, in a solid, confident dog. Unless it was really really ruined, who knows though....what you are describing, to me, is much different than the testing whether the dog will protect Don or not, it is delving more into whether the dog will at least attempt to stand up for itself or not...and with a decent confident dog, that is genetically capable, it would take alot of mistreatment to ruin them to a degree that they would bail like that. What you are describing to me may in fact, transcend the raising and treatment of the dogs. I would not expect a super dog in any way shape of form, but I would expect the dogs to do better than what you are describing, unless they were totally ruined, which I am not sure if living at Don's wildlife refuge would do to a dog that has a character that is wired to stand up for itself. Just speculation I know...any good dog can get ruined...I guess what ruins them, is quite variable...I would expect the dog to be hesitant or confused, not flat out trying to get out of its skin to get away...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> I didn't meet any PP trainers that sucked until I got on the Internet
> The first PP trainer I started to work with my male Dobermann
> Sirius was the late John Germeroth he bred American Bull Dogs under the High Country kennel name. His widow Deb is still my Vet. John actually gave me a female AB puppy who I named Cathbodua, Who I lost last year. I trained with John at his house on Saturdays for over a year. Small group of 8-10 people and mainly Bull dogs with one Rottweiler and my Dobermann.


Thanks.. I jumped around quite a bit, have seen some dogs and people that sucked, but have also met some good dogs and good people...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> David Ruby
> 
> 
> Been there and done that David. Already got that Tshirt. Wasted the first 3 years listening, and breeding, according to the experts. Dave was of great benefit to me. I got to see what I needed to see. Past that, I don't need the baggage that come with people that think they know everything. I have a ton of experience in reading dogs. Don't need sportwork experience for that. I have seen more dogs in true, life and death situations that the rest of you. I know how dogs react to situations. There are just too many differences in the way I handle dogs, compared to the way dogs are handled today, for me to contend with. It is doubtfull that anyone will condition 5 and 6 week old pups to an aggressor. Today, they socialize by taking them to be around "normal" people etc Taking them to different places, hearing different noises. Everyone is afraid to do stuff with pups. In the end, I may have to ask for advice on how to get around something right here on WDF. At that point, I will thn sift through the 50 different way to correct somethng. So, David, you can see were the rub is, even the more experienced never agree on anything. That is supposed to help me how?


I'll probably shut up after this, since I'm not really trying to pile up on you.

Anyway, about how this will help you. Honestly? I think it's a matter of getting ONE person you can work with and then going with their program. Preferably somebody who had done this multiple times with a lot of success and preferably experience with your breed. Plus, going through the experience of trying it out. Kind of like anything else. This would still be new, and I'd be surprised if you did not learn something from the process of developing your first dog for bitework. Kind of like anything, like learning to carve a stick or cook Thai food. I can brew beer, but that's not the same thing as baking a cake or distilling Whisky. 

Of course, you could definitely argue I'm projecting; I'm always trying to learn more from situations and how people do things. There is definitely a bit of curiosity driving me, and I think there is a lot to learn from the how's & why's of people doing different things (at least for me). These things developed for reasons, and I find it interesting to examine the history behind that, how/why they work, where they maybe don't and why, etc. However, that's projection on my part to at least some extent.

FWIW, I would probably recommend finding that one person you respect to learn from and work with for getting an idea about working around any issues that pop up than the fifty different ways to correct somebody from people on the Internet who have never seen, much less worked with, your dogs.

-Cheers


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> you have already done a good job with your breeding plan - *successful hunting dogs*


Really? Successful? Have you verified that as a fact? :-k

25 years and almost 100 pounds ago I could slam dunk a basketball. If The Seeds dogs will hunt I have got to head out to the Staples Center and show those hacks how the game is played. I might even come out with some Air Fat Boy sneakers. :razz:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don
> 
> You are the most "kennel blind" person I've ever encountered.
> All these "years of experience reading dogs" and you didn't see
> ...


Thomas, my dogs are leading the blind, in schools three day a week working with disadvantaged kids, got all the obedience titles there is, got hunting titles, in multiple books. I know my dogs. I know you also on shaky ground when you resort to the marketing angle and selling pups. Had that T shirt for years also. I will give pups to people to get them into bitework.... I am not selling. One thing I am not is kennel blind. I gave pups top SAR to get them into it also. That is how you break into other fish bowls Thomas.

Now they have headed for the hills. LMAO, Titan went about 10 yrds past Dave and watched us. Odin would have done the same, but, yes, they wanted nothing to do with what was going on.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

some quick thoughts....

replace the words "bears and lions" with "deer"

if your dogs protected you before, its probably because they were in numbers (I noticed you said plural every time) and felt more confident in that situation... plus it sounds as if you were in control of the situation... so they will protect you in groups in situations where you are already in control... ???

You keep noting how the dogs didnt bark or growl this time, they did however in your other claims of protection... how do you explain that exactly? I thought I recall you saying confident dogs never growl... so are you saying the dogs that left were more confident? 

t


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Ruby wrote....



> These things developed for reasons, and I find it interesting to examine the history behind that, how/why they work, where they maybe don't and why, etc. However, that's projection on my part to at least some extent.


I agree with what you are suggesting to Don, but David, you are I assume pretty well versed in the Bulldog scene.

I ask you this. How many good solid bulldogs have you seen coming out of yards, that have never been worked until they are mature, with little socialization effort, and quite often are right off the chain or out of the kennel..

I have seen more than a few..For some breeders, the dog is raised with no training, no effort made. And they end up stable and ready to work, when they are mature...

That is genetics, not environment. 

My current herder was raised in this fashion, because I was very interested to see the "nature" side of the dog as opposed to the training, promoting, and masking side of it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> some quick thoughts....
> 
> replace the words "bears and lions" with "deer"
> 
> ...


Different dogs???? Not all Don's are the same in character/temperament from what he has written. The road rage dogs weren't conditioned for loud angry people either so I don't understand all the talk of bears/lions and its only an issue of what they do with un-natural behavior. Its not conditioning that's involved, its genetic character first and foremost. Back in the day when you took your dog to the local Schutzhund club to be tested, they didn't break out with the tug on the long line to test prey drive. It started with a guy with a sleeve and stick in defensive posture. If your dog stood his ground to a threat, then they said he could be trained. I certainly hadn't conditioned any of mine. The whole scenario was un-natural and nothing they had seen before. There are behaviors whether by human or animal that they will instinctively see as a threat. I have many incidences of the dogs meeting up with what would have been un-natural human behavior [behavior not displayed by us] and they didn't go to flight. They watched intently and for the ones they perceived as a threat, they responded. The dogs aren't conditioned or socialized to a threat. You take them out an about to see how they perceive the world and anything they hadn't encountered before. This is how you test them to see what's in their character. Dogs have a fight/flight zone just like any other animal. In the herding/guard/protection breeds, we have selected against flight, sound sensitivity, other environmental sensitivities etc. You can see alot of this at 3 weeks when all of their senses are available to them. 

Ohhh, and I might add, for Don's dog, the pack is the other dogs [not Don]. In the one video, the dogs down in their yard alerted/barked. I still think that's where you'll see any instinct--in their yards with each other. 

T


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> One of the things is that trainers judge the protectiveness in a dog with a phoney scenario that won't fool any dog. *You see it as proof positive, but, here on earth, it only proves a dog knows that it is an act and is not going to react to it the same as a real threat.*


Hypothetical question: Where's the solution to that? Take your dog to an actual fight with somebody? If your dog runs in fear from a phoney situation, what's going to make them snap in a protective role in a real, and by definition MORE serious, situation? It just seems really hard to train/test for that or consistently get the desired response out of the dog when it will only bite under circumstances IT sees as a real threat. What if you want the dog to do something and it does not see it as a threat, or you need to send the dog on a passive threat (like a cop sending a dog on a guy, or you need your dog to go after a burglar no longer a "threat" but has, I dunno, the Maltese Falcon or the cure to cancer or something important you want back, it could be anything). It just seems virtually impossible to breed/train around a concept that requires a dog to only react when it sees something as an immediate threat.

Anyway, all I can tell that it _proves _thus far (in this thread at least) is that said dogs in video did not bite and that some (at least under certain circumstances at least, there's video proof) will bite.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Anyway, all I can tell that it _proves _thus far (in this thread at least) is that said dogs in video did not bite and that some *(at least under certain circumstances at least, there's video proof) will bite.*
> 
> -Cheers


Did I miss the video, of the dogs biting, if so can someone post a link...it was hard to find the vids in the 1000+ posts...I have only seen one video, of a dog on the porch, that runs out into the yard, and a dog that jumps out of a truck and runs...are there more than that?

or are you referring to some other vids of other dogs...

thanks


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, I am not knowing anything. I just see things a bit different and I know the dogs. Odin was fighting the leash only because you were 5' in front of him and he was restrained. He would have moved off no farther than Titan did and watched. You just think he would have kept running....so you are guessing also. I am more than glad you came out. I did learn a lot. One of the things is that trainers judge the protectiveness in a dog with a phoney scenario that won't fool any dog. You see it as proof positive, but, here on earth, it only proves a dog knows that it is an act and is not going to react to it the same as a real threat. That is what I see, you see it as being real. I can accept that you want to believe it. It is ok, but this is why I really don't need the further assistance of people with experience. Like I said, I got this tee shirt when I listened to the experienced breeders and wasted the first 3 years of breeding.


If your dogs were really human friendly and saw no threat with Dave, they likely would have come up to him to say hi instead of RUNNING AWAY.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> David Ruby wrote....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You've seen more than I have. Most of what I have seen in Bulldogs have been either finished dogs by the time I saw them (e.g. Billy & Daisey in particular) that were probably not trained in this until they were older a bit older (Billy in particular), although I did not get to see them develop, or dogs that started out as pups that I've seen a bit of training. One pup she's got in particular, maybe its first or second time with a decoy, was on a puppy sleeve like a @#$% SchH dog. Just full of confidence and bit pretty nice. Granted, they probably played and did stuff with them, so not the same as a chain dog straight from the yard, but she's done stuff with dogs that went pretty much from the kennel to training. To give Don the benefit of a doubt, different dogs and not the same as waiting until they were 7 or older. That line DOES seem pretty good at going from kennel-to-work with no real effort made. Not trying to make them out to be Super Dogs or anything, but they do seem to be more genetically-inclined to that fighting/working mentality than maybe a lot of other breeds (as well as less-reactive, slower to mature, etc.). I've pretty much had it described as Bulldogs being harder to screw up on average (from herder people in rescue and whatnot).

But yes, I will agree I think a _lot_ of it is genetics in those cases. I can't say I've seen the development of tons of chain dogs that were then started as mature adults every step of the way, I'm not trying to misrepresent myself or anything, but I think that's more common in the Bulldog/Bull-and-Terrier breeds than the herders for various reasons. I've hung out with a few dogs like that though, and my dog and her sister both had pretty limited exposure. My dog is more of a stable/balanced/build-her-up kind of dog, her sister was more a natural for bitework. So I would say hers was much more genetics. They just seem to let the dogs be dogs with Bulldogs when young then sort of see what they're like without doing any training or whatnot until they can see what the dogs are like before doing anything with them. You also pretty much know most of the Bulldogs (or at least that line) that I've seen, and the breeders in the area that are dealing with those dogs to boot, so I'm sure you know even more about this than I do. I try to keep my eyes & ears open about this stuff though.

As far as how this pertains to Don's dogs or Airedales in general? They're Terriers, and I kind of tend to guess they would act more like a fighting breed than a herder in terms of their mental make up and how they did in bitework, or even more like a Schnauzer or something. Maybe not. Again, I'm just curious at this point. I just think it would be worth the exploration to learn how it HAS been done with breeds like that, WHY it was done that way, and just find somebody who's done this with Airedales or similar types of breeds to see if there is anything more that can be gleaned from them. I would just guess there might be SOMETHING of use. Just like I think even if I was doing PP with APBTs or ABs or Presa Canarios, I could probably learn something from Leri Hanson, Francis Metcalf, Howard Burgess, or the crew at Red Star (since they are all kind of sport-affiliated). But I mean that more conversationally and quasi-self-projecting than necessarily trying to convince Don.



> My current herder was raised in this fashion, because I was very interested to see the "nature" side of the dog as opposed to the training, promoting, and masking side of it.


I would like to see your dog sometime. I'm curious what you found out about your dog's "nature" side by doing this, how she did with that approach, and if you'd change that in future herders (if you're up for typing). That and she looks/sounds like a nice dog from what little I've seen and heard.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kinda grainy, was this one of the vids...

It is a test of an Airedale...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hm_jHjelpA


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Did I miss the video, of the dogs biting, if so can someone post a link...it was hard to find the vids in the 1000+ posts...I have only seen one video, of a dog on the porch, that runs out into the yard, and a dog that jumps out of a truck and runs...are there more than that?
> 
> or are you referring to some other vids of other dogs...
> 
> thanks


Part of me wanted to just send you off on a 1K+ scavenger hunt. \\/

No, I meant we have video of Don's dogs _not_ biting, while there is a large amount of video of other dogs (sport-trained or otherwise trained in ways Don is discounting) that will.

-Cheers


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Hypothetical question: Where's the solution to that? Take your dog to an actual fight with somebody? If your dog runs in fear from a phoney situation, what's going to make them snap in a protective role in a real, and by definition MORE serious, situation? It just seems really hard to train/test for that or consistently get the desired response out of the dog when it will only bite under circumstances IT sees as a real threat. What if you want the dog to do something and it does not see it as a threat, or you need to send the dog on a passive threat (like a cop sending a dog on a guy, or you need your dog to go after a burglar no longer a "threat" but has, I dunno, the Maltese Falcon or the cure to cancer or something important you want back, it could be anything). It just seems virtually impossible to breed/train around a concept that requires a dog to only react when it sees something as an immediate threat.
> 
> Anyway, all I can tell that it _proves _thus far (in this thread at least) is that said dogs in video did not bite and that some (at least under certain circumstances at least, there's video proof) will bite.
> 
> -Cheers


Dogs that don't read it as a real threat, don't run off. They watch it. Look at all the bite work discusses about amping up the threat for the dog to take it seriously. Weird, un-natural things, they don't run. The have this curious expression and go check it out. 

T


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Dogs that don't read it as a real threat, don't run off. They watch it. Look at all the bite work discusses about amping up the threat for the dog to take it seriously. Weird, un-natural things, they don't run. The have this curious expression and go check it out.
> 
> T


Okay, so "curious expression/go check it out" = no perceived threat. Got it.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I ask you this. How many good solid bulldogs have you seen coming out of yards, that have never been worked until they are mature, with little socialization effort, and quite often are right off the chain or out of the kennel..
> 
> I have seen more than a few..For some breeders, the dog is raised with no training, no effort made. And they end up stable and ready to work, when they are mature...


For what it's worth I _did_ not too long ago see an American Bulldog, a Daisey daughter so pretty old, that was tested to see if she'd fire up and the dog just looked at the guy confused. Just your pretty basic stuff where the decoy just talks/acts aggressively, etc. She didn't move, just did not really move at all, sort of sat there with a puzzled look on her face. It was obvious the dog was not going to do much, and the owner just wanted to see if she'd light up with a display, but she was too old to really start in it and her mind was wired to where everybody was always cool with her. Point being, she was confident but confused. I guess _that_ is sort of what I was expecting in Don's dogs' case, just a sit-there, WTF reaction.

-Cheers


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

tony mason said:


> Yesssss!!!!!!


Bastid!!!!!

You sharing ??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> I would like to see your dog sometime. I'm curious what you found out about your dog's "nature" side by doing this, how she did with that approach, and if you'd change that in future herders (if you're up for typing). That and she looks/sounds like a nice dog from what little I've seen and heard.
> -Cheers


I do not think I would recommend this type of thing. I would not do it again I do not think with the next one. It was an experiment. 

There was obviously things that could have been way better, and opportunities missed for things.

I am very pleased however with how the dog has turned out, and I would say she is a hardy, good working dog, with good character, nerves, and drives, that is fairly social, and is fair and balanced in the work.

You are welcome to come out and see her anytime. We have never "tested" her limitations, or dug too deeply but the work we have done with her, has not exposed any major weaknesses.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I do not think I would recommend this type of thing. I would not do it again I do not think with the next one. It was an experiment.
> 
> There was obviously things that could have been way better, and opportunities missed for things.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I can see how both sides came to be, and can understand why it might have developed more naturally with, say, Bulldogs, APBTs, Mastiffs and the like (slower maturing, maybe a bit more resiilant, etc.) and why you might want to do more with young herders (faster maturation, quicker, you miss opportunities, would imagine you could hard-wire not-so-great tendencies, etc.). But that's just me sort of looking at it from a distance. With different dogs, philosophies, or goals, they kind of make sense.

-Cheers


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, I am not knowing anything. I just see things a bit different and I know the dogs. Odin was fighting the leash only because you were 5' in front of him and he was restrained. He would have moved off no farther than Titan did and watched. You just think he would have kept running....so you are guessing also. I am more than glad you came out. I did learn a lot. One of the things is that trainers judge the protectiveness in a dog with a phoney scenario that won't fool any dog. You see it as proof positive, but, here on earth, it only proves a dog knows that it is an act and is not going to react to it the same as a real threat. That is what I see, you see it as being real. I can accept that you want to believe it. It is ok, but this is why I really don't need the further assistance of people with experience. Like I said, I got this tee shirt when I listened to the experienced breeders and wasted the first 3 years of breeding.



Here you go again telling me how i see that test. You say it was an act. You say I see it as real, while the ever benevolent and sage Don sees it correctly. Phony scenario. Don, you set it up. You say I see it as proof positive. Say what YOU think. I'll cover what my beliefs are.

Get a pup to a pro police trainer or a sport trainer. You have no idea how to go about what you want to do. To think you do is more arrogant than anything David Frost has ever said here, without his experience to begin to warrant the arrogance.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I can see how both sides came to be, and can understand why it might have developed more naturally with, say, Bulldogs, APBTs, Mastiffs and the like (slower maturing, maybe a bit more resiilant, etc.) and why you might want to do more with young herders (faster maturation, quicker, you miss opportunities, would imagine you could hard-wire not-so-great tendencies, etc.). But that's just me sort of looking at it from a distance. With different dogs, philosophies, or goals, they kind of make sense.
> 
> -Cheers


The dog I have is very resilient, which is one of the things I was trying to find out...Pup went through harsh winter on the border of WI/IL, to my knowledge, she never even used her doghouse (which was built for this climate)..she did pull some straw out and spread it on the ice a few times...I of course would have moved the dog inside if issues arose.

All in all, the dog was raised in a harsh manner, compared to how most herders are raised...and is still sane...LOL...I still went over there daily and let her out and let her explore the property, played rag or tug a few times before teething. And let her just be a dog..

Had a few social issues when the dog was brought out into the public, and a few things to get the dog exposed too, and a couple of "Meet your God" moments, but all in all the dog has fit perfectly into a home environment, and is very stable in public, and in the work. 

She does have issues with other dogs, but is very controllable in that respect...that was a trait she displayed as a very young pup, so not sure how much of that was affected...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Charles Guyer said:


> Okay, so "curious expression/go check it out" = no perceived threat. Got it.


Actually, you don't. That's your equation, not mine. The last time I hung out with you, you described me to someone as "a herder who could read a dog." Now you seem to be on this mission. With what I call the curious expression, the dog sometimes will even sort of cock his head from side to side initially. I used this for seeing weird, un-natural things--separate from what humans call threatening behavior. Say, for Teva we are at the market--long isles standing room only--fairly dark--hundreds of people packed. Its October so some guy is walking around with a Halloween monster mask on talking through it with a muffled voice. To her, he's weird and un-natural. So she's watching him as he is coming toward me, cocking her head. She was probably about 7 or 8 months old. He stopped cold when he got a couple of feet away. I asked could she walk up to him. He said fine, as long as she doesn't bite me. She walked right up and jumped up on him to sniff the mask. The same area if you walk a couple of more blocks away from the market, you may encounter homeless people with their carts--dogs pick up on them as weird. Same thing, are they worried or given to avoidance or wanna go check it out.

Now, separate from the weird/un--natural is with a helper/decoy pressuring the dog. Don calls this un-natural behavior. He says the reason for his dogs flight is because the behavior is un-natural and they aren't conditioned to un-natural behavior. Not all dogs resort to flight when presented with some thing that is "un-natural" to them. I guess first you have to look at whether they perceive the behavior as threatening. Just because its meant as threatening doesn't mean they will perceive it that way. So what are the possibilities if they perceive a threat--flight, fight, freeze? How do the humans decide whether the dog perceived a threat? You're a decoy/helper. How do you decide? Then you have to decide whether he perceives it as a threat. It looks a lot different from freeze behavior--at least to me. The dog will watch it at first and then ignore it if he thinks its no big deal. The assumption is, he doesn't see it as a threat. 

T


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually, you don't. That's your equation, not mine. The last time I hung out with you, you described me to someone as "a herder who could read a dog." Now you seem to be on this mission. With what I call the curious expression, the dog sometimes will even sort of cock his head from side to side initially. I used this for seeing weird, un-natural things--separate from what humans call threatening behavior. Say, for Teva we are at the market--long isles standing room only--fairly dark--hundreds of people packed. Its October so some guy is walking around with a Halloween monster mask on talking through it with a muffled voice. To her, he's weird and un-natural. So she's watching him as he is coming toward me, cocking her head. She was probably about 7 or 8 months old. He stopped cold when he got a couple of feet away. I asked could she walk up to him. He said fine, as long as she doesn't bite me. She walked right up and jumped up on him to sniff the mask. The same area if you walk a couple of more blocks away from the market, you may encounter homeless people with their carts--dogs pick up on them as weird. Same thing, are they worried or given to avoidance or wanna go check it out.
> 
> Now, separate from the weird/un--natural is with a helper/decoy pressuring the dog. Don calls this un-natural behavior. He says the reason for his dogs flight is because the behavior is un-natural and they aren't conditioned to un-natural behavior. Not all dogs resort to flight when presented with some thing that is "un-natural" to them. I guess first you have to look at whether they perceive the behavior as threatening. Just because its meant as threatening doesn't mean they will perceive it that way. So what are the possibilities if they perceive a threat--flight, fight, freeze? How do the humans decide whether the dog perceived a threat? You're a decoy/helper. How do you decide? Then you have to decide whether he perceives it as a threat. It looks a lot different from freeze behavior--at least to me. The dog will watch it at first and then ignore it if he thinks its no big deal. The assumption is, he doesn't see it as a threat.
> 
> T


The last time I hung out with you I thought you were a nice person with a good handle on dog training. That has not changed. My only mission is to stop the creeping domination of the rational, self aware dog rhetoric that I see taking over this board. 
As a decoy/helper it is my job to get the dog to perform a specific set of behaviors. I rely on non-verbal cues (obviously) from the dog to determine whether or not he is calm, confident, anxious, fearful, motivated, etc. I try to elicit certain simple actions/reactions by providing or not providing certain stimuli. I consider this training. 
If I had a dog that I thought was capable of understanding the situation I would just teach it how previous dogs faced similar situations and achieved successful outcomes. I would then expect the dog to take that knowledge and use it to achieve it's own successful outcome.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Charles Guyer said:


> The last time I hung out with you I thought you were a nice person with a good handle on dog training. That has not changed. My only mission is to stop the creeping domination of the rational, self aware dog rhetoric that I see taking over this board.
> As a decoy/helper it is my job to get the dog to perform a specific set of behaviors. I rely on non-verbal cues (obviously) from the dog to determine whether or not he is calm, confident, anxious, fearful, motivated, etc. I try to elicit certain simple actions/reactions by providing or not providing certain stimuli. I consider this training.
> If I had a dog that I thought was capable of understanding the situation I would just teach it how previous dogs faced similar situations and achieved successful outcomes. I would then expect the dog to take that knowledge and use it to achieve it's own successful outcome.


So you've never encountered any of these situations outside of a training scenario?

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Charles Guyer said:


> My only mission is to stop the creeping domination of the rational, self aware dog rhetoric that I see taking over this board.
> .



you forgot self aggrandizing. I don't know where to work it into your sentence exactly.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So you've never encountered any of these situations outside of a training scenario?
> 
> T


Sure, but that doesn't change anything. There are a ton of variables that may influence the dogs actions or reactions, but they are no more or less situationally *aware* than they are on the training field.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> you forgot self aggrandizing. I don't know where to work it into your sentence exactly.


I'm trying not to harp on that one, as I tend to think pretty highly of myself as well. I just try to temper by remembering to think highly of others at the same time.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Charles Guyer said:


> I'm trying not to harp on that one, as I tend to think pretty highly of myself as well. I just try to temper by remembering to think highly of others at the same time.



lol!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

You people are a trip. All I am saying is why many dogs do what they do and it would be easily overcome by conditioning them as pups to people acting crazy. I am not suggesting a change in the whole program.....just condition the pups to crazyness before they accept people acting normal all the time. Let's not make to much out of a small suggestion to change the behavior earlier before it is set.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You people are a trip. All I am saying is why many dogs do what they do and it would be easily overcome by conditioning them as pups to people acting crazy. I am not suggesting a change in the whole program.....just condition the pups to crazyness before they accept people acting normal all the time. Let's not make to much out of a small suggestion to change the behavior earlier before it is set.


So if you condition the pups to people acting crazy, then they will not run, but will protect you? is that what you are saying? cant keep up with all the posts on this one...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You people are a trip. All I am saying is why many dogs do what they do and it would be easily overcome by conditioning them as pups to people acting crazy. I am not suggesting a change in the whole program....*.just condition the pups to crazyness before they accept people acting normal all the time. Let's not make to much out of a small suggestion to change the behavior earlier before it is set*.


So crazy becomes normal you mean ?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnu3TqDKXZY

Gotta love it !


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

simple questions and might be able to be answered with a yes or no 

Don is in his yard....with all his dogs wandering around maybe or just hanging out, but none of em restrained in any way
...."anybody" walks or runs yelling in with a couple soft rubber hoses and goes straight to Don, throws him down and starts whomping on him...absolutely NO threats in any way shape or form to the dogs - the two guys are just focused on whacking Don and Don is fighting back and screaming his lungs out, plus continually callin his dogs names in random order to "come and save him"
- i know nearly all the dogs will light up and bark like there is no tomorrow...but imo that's a given and irrelevant, so no need to mention that reaction unless you doubt it will happen
- the ATTACK goes on, no let up at all by either the attacker or Don

looking for a "two part" reaction (during the fight and after)
1. will there be any different reaction or result than when Dave came in yelling and intimidating Don and his dog as it approached him and he chased it off ?
2. if no dog approaches and lays a tooth on Don after about ten minutes, Don goes quiet and "dies" w/ no more movement ... the guy hears the cops coming and runs out the gate. will anything happen then either ? (dogs/assailant)
3. is this a realistic scenario to test whether a guys dog(s) or pack will protect when its owner is being attacked ?
4. is it a stoopid scenario and not necessary to prove what Dave showed the way he did it in less than a minute, because .... "that's the way it's done" ?
(any dog who steps up gets a pigs ear of course)

just curious because i've never heard of a test of whether dogs will protect their owner done this way and wonder why (to me a simple test to set up and more realistic)
- i'm not a youtube watcher so haven't checked if there was anything like this filmed
- and i haven't heard of anyone who has been "saved" by their dog that had a video to document the canine heroics
- and the "news at nine" clips i saw were not of a person being threatened or attacked compared to the dog intimidation by whoever ran em off

5. last but not least.....is there any LEO who has seen or known thru other officers of a dog that was killed that showed any evidence it had been trying to protect its owner after a homicide, rape or other type of assault ? ... or one found alive still "guarding" the victim ?.....or would animal control just be called and that aspect not be written up in the report ?

mostly the clips i've seen from the list are to see if a dog will protect itself when IT is threatened which i assume is strictly a test of the dog's "character", potential and nerves etc etc

a million posts ago i thought this was the main debate, but i may have gotten it wrong along the way... i was thinking all along that the attack would be directed at Don and not at the dog 
- i believe i remember Dave saying he didn't want to keep chasing the dog. why chase it in the first place ? 

it seems to me in an assault, most assholes will be concentrating on assaulting the victim and will only respond to or threaten a dog if it jumps in and tries to bite them
- testing my way would seem to place zero stress on a dog who just watches or runs off, so there wouldn't be a need to "build em back up" after the test....just serve em lunch by the guy who rises from the dead


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

rick smith said:


> simple questions and might be able to be answered with a yes or no
> 
> Don is in his yard....with all his dogs wandering around maybe or just hanging out, but none of em restrained in any way
> ...."anybody" walks or runs yelling in with a couple soft rubber hoses and goes straight to Don, throws him down and starts whomping on him...absolutely NO threats in any way shape or form to the dogs - the two guys are just focused on whacking Don and Don is fighting back and screaming his lungs out, plus continually callin his dogs names in random order to "come and save him"
> ...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Rick, I think a good point to remember in all of this is this; this is how Don wanted it if I am not mistaken.

It does not answer your questions of course, but thought it worth mentioning.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Tony Mason won the prize for 1000 post. Will there be a public announcement about this and his prize, and can we contest it ??


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Tony Mason won the prize for 1000 post. Will there be a public announcement about this and his prize, and can we contest it ??


 
He cheated...he didn't win sh*t!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

> Different dogs???? Not all Don's are the same in character/temperament from what he has written. The road rage dogs weren't conditioned for loud angry people either so I don't understand all the talk of bears/lions and its only an issue of what they do with un-natural behavior.


Different dogs? who knows... maybe he will tell us lol Id also be curious on any major ranges in character/ temperament and how that relates to his tight breeding program... Ive always taken it that his dogs were all fairly close in temperament/ character biggest differences being in sexes.

does anyone understand the talk of bears and lions? .... that is how he is relating his dogs reaction.... to large wild dangerous predators, kings of their domains :-D

This thread has been interesting, Don you have always come across as the nature over nurture type and now it seems youre switching your thoughts on that....?? What I am reading is that you think this is solely a nurture issue and that is how it needs to be addressed. Either way I see another futher "bet" coming on...

t


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> He cheated...he didn't win sh*t!


I agree...he needs to get in here and quick!!! And stand up for what he believes in, or relinquish !!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Bastid!!!!!
> 
> You sharing ??


Hi Maggie

There is nothing to share. In the fine print of the rules it
clearly states "consecutive posts with no meaningful content used solely to advance the post count will result in disqualification and
forfeiture of the prize. The prize will go to the next non consecutive post" ...........post 1001


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> In the fine print of the rules it clearly states "consecutive posts with no meaningful content used solely to advance the post count will result in disqualification and forfeiture of the prize. The prize will go to the next non consecutive post" ...........post 1001



Teeny weeny print ..... :lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Maggie
> 
> There is nothing to share. In the fine print of the rules it
> clearly states "consecutive posts with no meaningful content used solely to advance the post count will result in disqualification and
> forfeiture of the prize. The prize will go to the next non consecutive post" ...........post 1001


Well sorry Thomas, but Tony sent me a pm and said; I think you should win the prize Maggie because I cheated and you were the one that called me out. Honest.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Maggie
> 
> There is nothing to share. In the fine print of the rules it
> clearly states "consecutive posts with no meaningful content used solely to advance the post count will result in disqualification and
> forfeiture of the prize. The prize will go to the next non consecutive post" ...........post 1001


 
and if the seconday winner is more than 2 hours away by airplane, car, bus or walking then he/she shall forfeit winnings to a randomly selected poster...... Doug Z.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Well sorry Thomas, but Tony sent me a pm and said; I think you should win the prize Maggie because I cheated and you were the one that called me out. Honest.


Sorry Maggie, Tony doesn't have a legit claim to the prize so he can't assign it to you. However since he confessed to being a cheater. He wouldn't be drawn and quartered and banned for
life.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> and if the seconday winner is more than 2 hours away by airplane, car, bus or walking then he/she shall forfeit winnings to a randomly selected poster...... Doug Z.


More then two hours away from who or what?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Sorry Maggie, Tony doesn't have a legit claim to the prize so he can't assign it to you. However since he confessed to being a cheater. He wouldn't be drawn and quartered and banned for
> life.


Well, I beg to differ Thomas. If Tony says I can have the prize that he won albeit in a non conformist manner ie. cheating.....that is good enough for me and I am sticking to it. Any more problem, go get yourself a gun !


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> Different dogs? who knows... maybe he will tell us lol Id also be curious on any major ranges in character/ temperament and how that relates to his tight breeding program... Ive always taken it that his dogs were all fairly close in temperament/ character biggest differences being in sexes.
> 
> does anyone understand the talk of bears and lions? .... that is how he is relating his dogs reaction.... to large wild dangerous predators, kings of their domains :-D
> 
> ...


Finally, a post with logic. I am a nature all the way type Tracy. I see this as you want dogs to play unrealistic games with people acting out of the ordinary. That take some nurture....unless a person belongs to a household where this is the natural setting. Puppies, as I said are born and raised with people oooing them cuddling them, talking in high pitched sweet voices and kissing them on the nose. To them, this is how people act. They go through their learning years with this kind of behavior. Then, out of the blue. Someone comes crashing in yelling and screaming. This blows the dogs mind. It is unnatural. If it is not the norm, it does need nurture to get around it. Get the pup conditioned to the fact that people act crazy at times.

Imagine some guy that just likes to scare people for the fun of it. Another game so to speak. Your walking down a dark street on your way home and he jumps out and acts lik he is going do god knows what. has a knife or a gun(clatter stick and can of rocks) It will probably scare the crap,out of you. Then the guy turns and walks away laughing because he was just doing it for laughs to see what you would do. Same thing.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

We need a smilie with an exploding head.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Finally, a post with logic. I am a nature all the way type Tracy. I see this as you want dogs to play unrealistic games with people acting out of the ordinary. That take some nurture....unless a person belongs to a household where this is the natural setting. *Puppies, as I said are born and raised with people oooing them cuddling them, talking in high pitched sweet voices and kissing them on the nose. To them, this is how people act. They go through their learning years with this kind of behavior*. Then, out of the blue. Someone comes crashing in yelling and screaming. This blows the dogs mind. It is unnatural. If it is not the norm, it does need nurture to get around it. Get the pup conditioned to the fact that people act crazy at times.


But this is not how you raise your puppies Don, we know that, because you told us....over ...and over....and over....


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Finally, a post with logic. I am a nature all the way type Tracy. I see this as you want dogs to play unrealistic games with people acting out of the ordinary. That take some nurture....unless a person belongs to a household where this is the natural setting. Puppies, as I said are born and raised with people oooing them cuddling them, talking in high pitched sweet voices and kissing them on the nose. To them, this is how people act. They go through their learning years with this kind of behavior. Then, out of the blue. Someone comes crashing in yelling and screaming. This blows the dogs mind. It is unnatural. If it is not the norm, it does need nurture to get around it. Get the pup conditioned to the fact that people act crazy at times.


Genetics and Training?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Charles Guyer said:


> We need a smilie with an exploding head.


Something like this...?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Finally, a post with logic. I am a nature all the way type Tracy. I see this as you want dogs to play unrealistic games with people acting out of the ordinary. That take some nurture....unless a person belongs to a household where this is the natural setting. Puppies, as I said are born and raised with people oooing them cuddling them, talking in high pitched sweet voices and kissing them on the nose. To them, this is how people act. They go through their learning years with this kind of behavior. Then, out of the blue. Someone comes crashing in yelling and screaming. This blows the dogs mind. It is unnatural. If it is not the norm, it does need nurture to get around it. Get the pup conditioned to the fact that people act crazy at times.
> 
> Imagine some guy that just likes to scare people for the fun of it. Another game so to speak. Your walking down a dark street on your way home and he jumps out and acts lik he is going do god knows what. has a knife or a gun(clatter stick and can of rocks) It will probably scare the crap,out of you. Then the guy turns and walks away laughing because he was just doing it for laughs to see what you would do. Same thing.


So again I ask, once you condition the dogs around crazy antics, they will protect you? and will not be fearful if threatened? that is your prediction?


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Don Turnipseed;298953
Imagine some guy that just likes to scare people for the fun of it. Another game so to speak. Your walking down a dark street on your way home and he jumps out and acts lik he is going do god knows what. has a knife or a gun(clatter stick and can of rocks) It will probably scare the crap said:


> Yeah, and then imagine you go ape shit and whip the tar out of him. Then imagine he hit's you on the head with the clatter stick, and you're all like, I'm scared and run away. Or you could imagine that you knew he was just messing around and you decided to teach him a lesson by growling and biting him, then he would really be wigged out.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> does anyone understand the talk of bears and lions? ....


Yes, I do. I've seen it before in bears and saw it last summer when my DDB bitch encountered a brown bear sow and two sub adults in high grass. The reaction from my dog was not the same that I saw from Don's dogs however. Her physical movement and the apparent purpose of such was different. Granted, Don's dogs moved out of view so I couldn't fully assess what was going on the in video and I will give him that, which is why I didn't comment on that until you asked the question.

What I got from my dog was a bold reaction, every muscle was tense, ears were high and tight to her head, tail rigid, her movement was strong and purposeful. She wasn't moving to get out of the area but rather because something caused her to move away from the threat (charge is my guess). Instinctively you could see that she was drawn to remain in the conflict and it was obviously strong enough that she didn't leave but rather attempted to engage on two separate tries.

In fact what pulled her out of the area was me yelling at her in a way I have never done before when she started back in after them. This led to me screaming almost as if I was saving my own life, then she stopped and paused for a second. Shortly after she returned, we got into the boat only to be met by the bears again who had circled back around and were up river from us.

I don't know what Don saw, but I am familiar with what he describes their reaction to have been.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Yes, I do. I've seen it before in bears and saw it last summer when my DDB bitch encountered a brown bear sow and two sub adults in high grass. The reaction from my dog was not the same that I saw from Don's dogs however. Her physical movement and the apparent purpose of such was different. Granted, Don's dogs moved out of view so I couldn't fully assess what was going on the in video and I will give him that, which is why I didn't comment on that until you asked the question.
> 
> What I got from my dog was a bold reaction, every muscle was tense, ears were high and tight to her head, tail rigid, her movement was strong and purposeful. She wasn't moving to get out of the way but rather because something caused her to move away from the threat (charge is my guess). Instinctively you could see that she was drawn to remain in the conflict and it was obviously strong enough that she didn't leave. In fact what pulled her out of the area was me yelling at her in a way I have never done before when she started back in after them. This led to me screaming almost as if I was saving my own life, then she stopped and paused for a second. Shortly after she returned, we got into the boat only to be met by the bears again who had circled back around and were up river from us.
> 
> I don't know what Don saw, but I am familiar with what he describes their reaction to have been.


I could be wrong my dear, but I do believe the reference is to how the bear reacts to the dogs, not the other way around


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

You are Joby. Wrong that is. Let me clarify - the reference Don used was how big game responded to being put in such a situation with dogs. He hadn't seen this reaction from his dogs before but recognized the look. What I am saying is my dog responded in a way to the bear similar to the way he is saying his dogs responded to Dave. That is the reaction Don was describing. I am familiar with it on both sides.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> You are Joby. Wrong that is. Let me clarify - the reference Don was using was how big game responded to being put in such a situation with dogs. He hadn't seen this reaction from his dogs before but recognized the look. What I am saying is my dog responded in a way to the bear similar to the way he is saying his dogs responded to Dave. That is the reaction Don was describing. I am familiar with it on both sides.



oh ok .lol...my bad...this thread is too long to keep up with. Don had mentioned something about how bears react to dogs and tree themselves. I thought that is what was being discussed...i will slip out of here now...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Nicole, was this before or after the moose kicked your dog in the head, knocking him silly? Sorry, I just couldn't resist?:-D


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## tony mason (May 4, 2008)

Anybody wants my prize, they gotta come git it!
I got a yard full of mean ass papillons brought up on the mean streets of Doncaster.
I got my camcorder charged up, I will be happy to film all comers getting messed up by my wifes Paps (that sounds a bit wrong).


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

tony mason said:


> Anybody wants my prize, they gotta come git it!
> I got a yard full of mean ass papillons brought up on the mean streets of Doncaster.
> I got my camcorder charged up, I will be happy to film all comers getting messed up by my wifes Paps (that sounds a bit wrong).



Cheater!!! You didn't get any prize!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

tony mason said:


> Anybody wants my prize, they gotta come git it!
> I got a yard full of mean ass papillons brought up on the mean streets of Doncaster.
> I got my camcorder charged up, I will be happy to film all comers getting messed up by my wifes Paps (that sounds a bit wrong).


I know where you live (I think), and I don't need no plane to get there! I'm coming....best give it up first !!!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> Cheater!!! You didn't get any prize!


hear hear


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

tony mason said:


> Anybody wants my prize, they gotta come git it!
> I got a yard full of mean ass papillons brought up on the mean streets of Doncaster.
> I got my camcorder charged up, I will be happy to film all comers getting messed up by my wifes Paps (that sounds a bit wrong).


 
Well come on tough guy...not so tough now huh??? I'm just up the road .....


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Finally, a post with logic. I am a nature all the way type Tracy. I see this as you want dogs to play unrealistic games with people acting out of the ordinary. That take some nurture....unless a person belongs to a household where this is the natural setting. Puppies, as I said are born and raised with people oooing them cuddling them, talking in high pitched sweet voices and kissing them on the nose. To them, this is how people act. They go through their learning years with this kind of behavior. Then, out of the blue. Someone comes crashing in yelling and screaming. This blows the dogs mind. It is unnatural. If it is not the norm, it does need nurture to get around it. Get the pup conditioned to the fact that people act crazy at times.
> 
> Imagine some guy that just likes to scare people for the fun of it. Another game so to speak. Your walking down a dark street on your way home and he jumps out and acts lik he is going do god knows what. has a knife or a gun(clatter stick and can of rocks) It will probably scare the crap,out of you. Then the guy turns and walks away laughing because he was just doing it for laughs to see what you would do. Same thing.


 
Wrong. Usually the first time most of our dogs see a man acting aggressive in such a way as to make a dog feel defensive is when it's age appropriate, somewhere between a year or two - and guess what? The very first time a man acts aggressively towards them they don't turn tail and run - they meet the challenge - not because they were conditioned through prey but because that's what they were bred to do. So no, it doesn't "blow the dogs mind" your theory is shot all to hell and back. The ones that turn tail and run the first time they see a man acting aggressively are called shitters in our world.

Training doesn't teach a dog it's OK to bite a human being, training is about control.


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## tony mason (May 4, 2008)

First time I ever won anything in my life and a few jealous bad minded people want to take it away from me, well let me tell you this, I won this fair and square and I will be waiting in my truck with Fizzy (my wifes pp Papillon) she would love to meet all you haters out there.
Just tell me when and where.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Nicole, was this before or after the moose kicked your dog in the head, knocking him silly? Sorry, I just couldn't resist?:-D


The 3 bears encounter took place before the moose kick. She was kicked in the head this past summer.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

tony mason said:


> First time I ever won anything in my life and a few jealous bad minded people want to take it away from me, well let me tell you this, I won this fair and square and I will be waiting in my truck with Fizzy (my wifes pp Papillon) she would love to meet all you haters out there.
> Just tell me when and where.


You will have yourself a date my man. Just as soon as I take us all around the bushes for a twirl that is.....want to be in keeping with the thread you understand.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Wrong. Usually the first time most of our dogs see a man acting aggressive in such a way as to make a dog feel defensive is when it's age appropriate, somewhere between a year or two - and guess what? The very first time a man acts aggressively towards them they don't turn tail and run - they meet the challenge - not because they were conditioned through prey but because that's what they were bred to do. So no, it doesn't "blow the dogs mind" your theory is shot all to hell and back. The ones that turn tail and run the first time they see a man acting aggressively are called shitters in our world.
> 
> Training doesn't teach a dog it's OK to bite a human being, training is about control.


My male not only wants to attack humans acting weird but runs around trying to attack loud thunder during thunder storms. He tries to get outside to go after it.:-D


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

> . The reaction from my dog was not the same that I saw from Don's dogs however.


I guess I'm lost on the comparison if the reaction wasn't the same and its the reaction being discussed?

What I saw in his dog was simple... Defense. You could pick any animal in the kingdom... It just happen to remind me more of a deer than a lion or bear...:wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> I guess I'm lost on the comparison if the reaction wasn't the same and its the reaction being discussed?
> 
> What I saw in his dog was simple... Defense. You could pick any animal in the kingdom... It just happen to remind me more of a deer than a lion or bear...:wink:


The original comparison was his, not mine. But I did understand what he spoke of because I have seen it. I am sure you and everyone else here understands that's really all I was commenting on.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> The original comparison was his, not mine. But I did understand what he spoke of because I have seen it. I am sure you and everyone else here understands that's really all I was commenting on.


Yes, I think they do. The comparison however is not really appropriate, it is a tour around the bushes.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

tony mason said:


> First time I ever won anything in my life and a few jealous bad minded people want to take it away from me, well let me tell you this, I won this fair and square and I will be waiting in my truck with Fizzy (my wifes pp Papillon) she would love to meet all you haters out there.
> Just tell me when and where.


October 15th at 10AM at Turnipseeds Place. Ariel can video tape.
You can even bring your Fanny ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> The original comparison was his, not mine. But I did understand what he spoke of because I have seen it. I am sure you and everyone else here understands that's really all I was commenting on.



Are you saying mama bear and the cub ran from your dog having never seen one before. Or are you saying your dog, having never seen a bear before stood watching, on alert? I thought Don's thing with bears and lions was kinda what Joby said.


T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Are you saying mama bear and the cub ran from your dog having never seen one before. Or are you saying your dog, having never seen a bear before stood watching, on alert? I thought Don's thing with bears and lions was kinda what Joby said.
> 
> 
> T


Hey T, I hope you can appreciate the fact that I am not interested in entertaining questions about what occurred with my dog. I really don't want to be drug into this thread/discussion and I have purposely kept off it for a reason. I merely described what occurred so others would understand why I said I knew what he was talking about.

BTW I live in Alaska, I think you can figure out the answer to the questions you presented on your own.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> October 15th at 10AM at Turnipseeds Place. Ariel can video tape.
> You can even bring your Fanny ;-)


He'll be needing his Fanny for this one, even if he didn't know what for before =;.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

We just had a very enlightening thread on shitty water. I am sure, after reading that thread, the problem with Don's dogs goes back to and is caused by crap water.:razz:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Tony Mason won the prize for 1000 post. Will there be a public announcement about this and his prize, and can we contest it ??


Darn, I wish it would have been made known earlier that it was going to be contested. The winning check is already in the mail. 

DFrost
Contest Administrator.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Darn, I wish it would have been made known earlier that it was going to be contested. The winning check is already in the mail.
> 
> DFrost
> Contest Administrator.



To me, right?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

chuckle, chuckle,


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh, ha, "chuckle,chuckle"!! i think you've been hanging out with Roger too much  oh--forgive me for being OT....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-o "check is in the mail"!
I thought the winner's prize was "The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training" . 
Just get the book and train your own dog to bite a human.
:-k...................I wonder!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> :-o "check is in the mail"!
> I thought the winner's prize was "The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training" .
> Just get the book and train your own dog to bite a human.
> :-k...................I wonder!


I loaned and didn't get back my copy many moons ago but a buddy says its quite detailed in its discussions regarding the natural dog vs. the trained dog.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I loaned and didn't get back my copy many moons ago but a buddy says its quite detailed in its discussions regarding the natural dog vs. the trained dog.
> 
> T



Chapter 2 covers it!


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## tony mason (May 4, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> October 15th at 10AM at Turnipseeds Place. Ariel can video tape.
> You can even bring your Fanny ;-)


We are entering into real dangerous territory now Thomas.

If my Fanny has someone in a "death grip" I cant promise I will be able to choke my Fanny off.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Was your fanny trained the death grip or was it just blessed with great genetics


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## tony mason (May 4, 2008)

Will,, I guess my Fanny is just a natural badass.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

tony mason said:


> We are entering into real dangerous territory now Thomas.
> 
> If my Fanny has someone in a "death grip" I cant promise I will be able to choke my Fanny off.



Tony,

Don't be so modest. Your skill at choking off your fanny are legendary even on this side of the pond. is it genetic or a trained
skill?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tony,
> 
> Don't be so modest. Your skill at choking off your fanny are legendary even on this side of the pond. is it genetic or a trained
> skill?


Nurtured...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well, now that you have all settled down and maybe got your shit together, I have some questions on longer term effects. I know pretty much how this stiff comes about. Someone that hasn't got a clue gets into any venue, not necessarily bite work, and they go to someone to learn from,. That person of experience tells them this is why this happens, this is what the results should be yadda, yadda, yadda . The person telling you learned the same exact way, when he started, someone told him. The cycle goes on forever. Everyone falls apart if it is questioned because it has become generations of gospel for everyone in the fish bowl. Obviously, it is against the rules to question anything you see is why I am pretty sure no one ever did never did.

Okay, my thought, after what I saw, was to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting. I am not asking if it can be done with pups because it can. What I want to know, down to specifics, what would be the long term upside and why? What would be the long term downside and why? Thomas, why don't you start. Try thinking outside the box. :grin: Maybe something you haven't been told by your previous mentors.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oh, and try to give it some thought before y'all short circuit and fall apart again.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, now that you have all settled down and maybe got your shit together, I have some questions on longer term effects. I know pretty much how this stiff comes about. Someone that hasn't got a clue gets into any venue, not necessarily bite work, and they go to someone to learn from,. That person of experience tells them this is why this happens, this is what the results should be yadda, yadda, yadda . The person telling you learned the same exact way, when he started, someone told him. The cycle goes on forever. Everyone falls apart if it is questioned because it has become generations of gospel for everyone in the fish bowl. Obviously, it is against the rules to question anything you see is why I am pretty sure no one ever did never did.
> 
> Okay, my thought, after what I saw, was to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting. I am not asking if it can be done with pups because it can. What I want to know, down to specifics, what would be the long term upside and why? What would be the long term downside and why? Thomas, why don't you start. Try thinking outside the box. :grin: Maybe something you haven't been told by your previous mentors.



Are you writing a book about other trainers? I saw that in one thread or another. Just wondered if we are all fodder for your book. 

I'd like to hear your opinion on what the long term effects are, and how you would do it. I'd hate to propagate the cycle you mention above, and a way to NOT do that would be for you to give your opinion prior to everyone else.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Are you writing a book about other trainers? I saw that in one thread or another. Just wondered if we are all fodder for your book.
> 
> I'd like to hear your opinion on what the long term effects are, and how you would do it. I'd hate to propagate the cycle you mention above, and a way to NOT do that would be for you to give your opinion prior to everyone else.


Just taking David Ruby's advice and looking to the pros for a few, seemingly, simple answers there Dave. I threw the ball out there, run with it. Like I said, give it some thought first. I am curious to hear some opinions before I waste my time conditions pups to something they may never see again.....unless they end up in bitesports of course. Besides, my opinions cause turmoil in the fish bowl.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don said:

_Okay, my thought, after what I saw, was to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting._

Well, short of introducing them to mental institution patients, what are you going to do?

On the other hand, whoever (in what sort of gear they were dressed in) entered your property, I would have liked to see them put up some sort of show, training or no training.

Maybe it's how you live out there in the wilds and they have never experienced many strangers.
I also am a great believer that dogs can sense "real" threat - probably get stoned for this but it's an age old question - if the dog perceives a threat - maybe. I don't know of any dog club here that hasn't been asked this question " will my dod protect me?" All the attempts to circle the house failed.

I guess you really know when you need it!!!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, now that you have all settled down and maybe got your shit together, I have some questions on longer term effects. I know pretty much how this stiff comes about. Someone that hasn't got a clue gets into any venue, not necessarily bite work, and they go to someone to learn from,. That person of experience tells them this is why this happens, this is what the results should be yadda, yadda, yadda . The person telling you learned the same exact way, when he started, someone told him. The cycle goes on forever. Everyone falls apart if it is questioned because it has become generations of gospel for everyone in the fish bowl. Obviously, it is against the rules to question anything you see is why I am pretty sure no one ever did never did.
> 
> Okay, my thought, after what I saw, was to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting. I am not asking if it can be done with pups because it can. What I want to know, down to specifics, what would be the long term upside and why? What would be the long term downside and why? Thomas, why don't you start. Try thinking outside the box. :grin: Maybe something you haven't been told by your previous mentors.


 
personally this has everything to do with nerve and enviromentals, regardless if someone is acting weird. What if Dave walked up in street clothes and said HELLO? How would the dogs react? How much are they socialized with people? I think sometimes that shows the true nerve of the dog....or lack their of...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> personally this has everything to do with nerve and enviromentals, regardless if someone is acting weird. What if Dave walked up in street clothes and said HELLO? How would the dogs react? How much are they socialized with people? I think sometimes that shows the true nerve of the dog....or lack their of...


Exactly!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> personally this has everything to do with nerve and enviromentals, regardless if someone is acting weird. What if Dave walked up in street clothes and said HELLO? How would the dogs react? How much are they socialized with people? I think sometimes that shows the true nerve of the dog....or lack their of...


So answer the question. My dogs, even unsocialized, wouldn't think anything of someone walking up to me on the street. Took two young, totally unsocialized, dogs to the Nationals and they were cool as could be in a crowd with a lot of dogs even. Weak dogs need more socializaion and stuff than strong dogs. Always have, always will. So answer the question and keep it on track. You notice that everyone is waiting for someone else to take a stab at it first....then everyone will have something to say. LOL


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So answer the question. My dogs, even unsocialized, wouldn't think anything of someone walking up to me on the street. Took two young, totally unsocialized, dogs to the Nationals and they were cool as could be in a crowd with a lot of dogs even. Weak dogs need more socializaion and stuff than strong dogs. Always have, always will. So answer the question and keep it on track. You notice that everyone is waiting for someone else to take a stab at it first....then everyone will have something to say. LOL


no interest in the question, just making a statement


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## tony mason (May 4, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tony,
> 
> Don't be so modest. Your skill at choking off your fanny are legendary even on this side of the pond. is it genetic or a trained
> skill?


On the contrary Thomas, I have always found that my Fanny responds to gentle handling, a delicate whisper, a gentle caress, and plenty of grooming (with a brush) not the other kind.

BTW, you should be paying me for feeding you all these lines.:-D

I cant help thinking we will be in trouble soon.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Your assuming and thinking alot of what is strong and/or weak


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry this is OT and therefore boring and not worth a response.......but 
re: "to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting"

read that back to yourself a few times Don, and reconsider if it would be possible to make SPECIFIC comments on the up side, down side, LONG terms effects based on that statement

if u want specifics i think you have to include more in your statement regardless of the fact this post generates 90% OT sarcastic comments, jokes and off the wall general BS regardless of what you post
- i've read a couple dozen that were keepers and OT, but i've prob only read 80% of the total thread 
- but i condition with a purpose and end goal in mind, also based on what the dog shows me.....that part wasn't clear in your statement

but if you want to keep it simple, just move to SoCal and do it there cause what you are considering can't be done in your yard.....maybe Venice beach for starters unless it's changed 
lots of pups seemed to handle that conditioning quite well when i was there, so it would be all good (aka up side) ... i see no down side .....if you're talking mostly pets


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, now that you have all settled down and maybe got your shit together, I have some questions on longer term effects. I know pretty much how this stiff comes about. Someone that hasn't got a clue gets into any venue, not necessarily bite work, and they go to someone to learn from,. That person of experience tells them this is why this happens, this is what the results should be yadda, yadda, yadda . The person telling you learned the same exact way, when he started, someone told him. The cycle goes on forever. Everyone falls apart if it is questioned because it has become generations of gospel for everyone in the fish bowl. Obviously, it is against the rules to question anything you see is why I am pretty sure no one ever did never did.
> 
> Okay, my thought, after what I saw, was to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting. I am not asking if it can be done with pups because it can. What I want to know, down to specifics, what would be the long term upside and why? What would be the long term downside and why? Thomas, why don't you start. Try thinking outside the box. :grin: Maybe something you haven't been told by your previous mentors.


Where do you get this silly horse shit? You make the most ridiculous assumptions! Don really, maybe if you actually get your ass to a club or get involved with people who actually participate in grip work instead of wasting your time making crap up about people you don't know, you would actually maybe learn something.

Also hate to dissapoint you but I have never been involved with grip sports where it wasn't OK to ask questions. What's not OK is for some dumb blow hard to come up and want everyone to just listen to their crazy ass ideas about thinking outside of the box when said blowhard doesn't even understand the damn box in the first place.

As to your silly question, why in the world would you expect anyone to put themselves out trying to further your education? Hell, Dave went all the way out there to help you and you still didn't get it. Why bother?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, now that you have all settled down and maybe got your shit together, I have some questions on longer term effects. I know pretty much how this stiff comes about. Someone that hasn't got a clue gets into any venue, not necessarily bite work, and they go to someone to learn from,. That person of experience tells them this is why this happens, this is what the results should be yadda, yadda, yadda . The person telling you learned the same exact way, when he started, someone told him. The cycle goes on forever. Everyone falls apart if it is questioned because it has become generations of gospel for everyone in the fish bowl. Obviously, it is against the rules to question anything you see is why I am pretty sure no one ever did never did.
> 
> Okay, my thought, after what I saw, was to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting. I am not asking if it can be done with pups because it can. What I want to know, down to specifics, what would be the long term upside and why? What would be the long term downside and why? Thomas, why don't you start. Try thinking outside the box. :grin: Maybe something you haven't been told by your previous mentors.


Personally i think what happened at your house had more to do with genetics (he wasnt near the dogs and the reaction was still strong) and as you just said strong dogs don't need as much. Now you want to take these dogs and socialize/ desensitize these dogs to non-normal people to stregthen their response (which it should) but it seems like your either wading off your true beliefs or confused on what you now believe.

My question is... What for? So they wont leave again or do you think this will make them protect you? What are you trying to gain from this exposure exactly? 

Ps I don't see how anyone can answer your question... Way too many variables and way to dynamic to guess.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Plus I kinda agree with Susan, you pretty much insult 90% of the board in how much they don't know and you do and then want their opinions?


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, now that you have all settled down and maybe got your shit together, I have some questions on longer term effects. I know pretty much how this stiff comes about. Someone that hasn't got a clue gets into any venue, not necessarily bite work, and they go to someone to learn from,. That person of experience tells them this is why this happens, this is what the results should be yadda, yadda, yadda . The person telling you learned the same exact way, when he started, someone told him. The cycle goes on forever. Everyone falls apart if it is questioned because it has become generations of gospel for everyone in the fish bowl. Obviously, it is against the rules to question anything you see is why I am pretty sure no one ever did never did.
> 
> Okay, my thought, after what I saw, was to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting. I am not asking if it can be done with pups because it can. What I want to know, down to specifics, what would be the long term upside and why? What would be the long term downside and why? Thomas, why don't you start. Try thinking outside the box. :grin: Maybe something you haven't been told by your previous mentors.


I would start by stating that exposure does not equal conditioning. First you need to know how you would like your dog to react to the exposure and then reinforce/punish accordingly.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Just taking David Ruby's advice and looking to the pros for a few, seemingly, simple answers there Dave. I threw the ball out there, run with it. Like I said, give it some thought first. I am curious to hear some opinions before I waste my time conditions pups to something they may never see again.....unless they end up in bitesports of course. Besides, my opinions cause turmoil in the fish bowl.



Don. You run with it. 
Are you writing a book?
What is your opinion on your question? 

I also have the answer to all your training questions. Just ask me for help and I will tell you. You have something common in about 4000 posts. This is real, not a joke. Just ask for help and I'll tell you. Are you writing a book though? I know I saw it on another thread that someone wanted you to write a dog behavior book, and you passed on that to write one about different trainers.

Are you writing a book? And, ask for what I can do to help you and I have the answer to all your training problems. And yes, you have some. No joke I figured it out about four hours ago after you were talking about making your dogs less scared. It came to me in a vision. I can help. Please just ask for help. 

Are you writing a book?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Where do you get this silly horse shit? You make the most ridiculous assumptions! Don really, maybe if you actually get your ass to a club or get involved with people who actually participate in grip work instead of wasting your time making crap up about people you don't know, you would actually maybe learn something.
> 
> Also hate to dissapoint you but I have never been involved with grip sports where it wasn't OK to ask questions. What's not OK is for some dumb blow hard to come up and want everyone to just listen to their crazy ass ideas about thinking outside of the box when said blowhard doesn't even understand the damn box in the first place.
> 
> As to your silly question, why in the world would you expect anyone to put themselves out trying to further your education? Hell, Dave went all the way out there to help you and you still didn't get it. Why bother?


What she said 

Thanks Susan


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don. You run with it.
> Are you writing a book?
> What is your opinion on your question?
> 
> ...


Write a book? If I did it wouldn't be on trainers. No I am not writing a book.

Also, I am asking for your professional opinions (help), as to what the long term upsides and downsides may be to conditioning pups. As professionals, you should easily see long term upsides and downsides to this that might result from this type of early conditioning in, let's say, sportwork. 

Susan, it is obvious you neither understand a simple question like this, nor, are you able to answer it so you should remember your cliche about your ass not writing checks you can't cash. :wink:

Come on people, it is written in simple English. You're dodging the question because of why? Maybe it is just too easy.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Write a book? If I did it wouldn't be on trainers. No I am not writing a book.
> 
> Also, I am asking for your professional opinions (help), as to what the long term upsides and downsides may be to conditioning pups. As professionals, you should easily see long term upsides and downsides to this that might result from this type of early conditioning in, let's say, sportwork.
> 
> ...


 
dodging the question?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don I also live on a remote property and my dogs from pups are not particularly socialised to anything off the farm except for trips to agility trials in the city maybe 12 times a year at most.

I have had the situation, once at night where a ute (flat bed?) full of noisy eh drunk young men, spotlights glaring, music blaring got lost and arrived at my property by accident. I was coming back from an evening walk with the dogs and all I could see was the outline of a stack of active, loud people silhouetted in the glare of their spotlights. My dogs had no hesitation, they ran flat out towards them barking their heads off. There was lots of shouting and carrying on and by the time I arrived on the scene, my BCs were all over them wagging their tails, my big Koolie was in the mix but not making contact and one of my cattle dogs was charging as she does which ends with her head against the thigh barking up at the face. The men, a couple of which had fled onto the tray of their ute, while another couple seemd unconcerned by the dogs, apologised for their mistake and beat a hasty retreat into the night They were just lads from a shearing team, trying to find a particular farm. My dogs chased them half way up my long driveway to my front gate for good measure.

I did have a dog once I raised in town and socialised her well and she was a very fear aggressive dog, any hint of a person acting strangely (to her mind that is) and she would show extreme reactivity and fear. Her sire was similar although this was masked by the fact he lived in a closed environment of kennels and seemed to have a good temperament to his breeders. I noticed when I went to see him that he was very reactive to me. I personally believe genetics plays a big part in the whole picture.

As to asking questions, I have never had a problem with that. The instructors I have had in my life are happy to be challenged. I take what I want from them and mix it with what I observe with my own dogs. I expect most people would.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You're dodging the question?




Pot. kettle. Don. Good, you've all met.

Do you want to know how I can fix all your training problems?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Susan, it is obvious you neither understand a simple question like this, nor, are you able to answer it so you should remember your cliche about your ass not writing checks you can't cash. :wink:
> 
> Come on people, it is written in simple English. You're dodging the question because of why? Maybe it is just too easy.


My ass can cash my mouths checks just fine because unlike you I don't try to dazzle people with tall tales about dogs that apparently don't have the the cajones to do the job when called out. You claimed something and Dave proved you were full of shit. Now you're trying to make up more bullshit and silly ass excuses. That's all there is to it.

Later


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Ruby, here are the professional trainers you think I should seek advice from. Put a simple question to them and no one will even attempt an answer....because no one ever told them the answer. They want me to basically feed them the info first. It really was a simple question. Why don't they answer......the answer is not in their training manual. What could be the long term upsides and downsides to early socialization? Simple question. Won't even attempt an answer for fear of looking dumb. They always wait for someome else to start and then they all have the answer..... miraculaously.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> David Ruby, here are the professional trainers you think I should seek advice from. Put a simple question to them and no one will even attempt an answer....because no one ever told them the answer. They want me to basically feed them the info first. It really was a simple question. Why don't they answer......the answer is not in their training manual. What could be the long term upsides and downsides to early socialization? Simple question. Won't even attempt an answer for fear of looking dumb. They always wait for someome else to start and then they all have the answer..... miraculaously.


Did you ever think that you portrayed yourself as such an all knowing benevolent guru, and then been proven wrong so many times here and in person, that no one even wants to get baited into your crap anymore?

You need help. There are people here that would give it. Your negative outlook on everything has been a detriment to that, in my experience with you. I don't even like coming on here to see the crap you post. It makes me not want to be here, which is a choice I am mulling over.

If you had any character, you'd stop writing, and read and learn as much as you could instead of trying to make other people look bad. Just stop your typing and think what you are doing. I know you are a self proclaimed pot stirrer, but is it useful? Does anyone gain anything from it?

It got your dogs and you on youtube, showing your ass. I hope all potential buyers see it. I may even tag it high country airedales at work.

I got an answer for you. Every post you make is how to make a dog NOT do something. Just like you do with people. IE in this case. NOT be scared shitless. How do I make my 25 year breeding program dogs NOT be scared shitless of Dave. Here's a thought for your fishpond (which is where you misquoted me when you started using fishbowl). Try and help the dog do something he wants. See some value in not being scared shitless of you, of me, of life and the trees. Teach them to be social instead of NOT scared. Affirmative, not negative. 


50% of the dogs I thought had promise on your place are from another kennel. That was out of two. Maybe you need to re-think stuff.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

nevermind, totally pointless to try and help someone who thinks he knows it all. Don you and Charlie Sheen have a lot in common. Keep telling yourself that you're "winning".


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Did you ever think that you portrayed yourself as such an all knowing benevolent guru, and then been proven wrong so many times here and in person, that no one even wants to get baited into your crap anymore?
> 
> You need help. There are people here that would give it. Your negative outlook on everything has been a detriment to that, in my experience with you. I don't even like coming on here to see the crap you post. It makes me not want to be here, which is a choice I am mulling over.
> 
> ...


I have been proven wrong so many time??? Name them. This last event yes. I did learn several things though, Dave, One is just how phoney the scenario's are and would be even with someone good at it. No dog would believe it is the real deal. The tests you rely so heavily on are seriously flawed and always have been and prove nothing about whether any dog will or will not protect when the threat is real. It is much the equivalent of running a dog through phoney scenarios in a training atmosphere and believing they will actually bite when the threat is real. 

So let's forget all the othe stuiff you are posting and just answer the question. It is easy, but David may as well see for himself what appealing to the professionals will get someone. It will get no more than what what has been siad so far bcause it isn't in the playbook. I assure you there are trainers that know exactly what I am talking about, but, they have n needed to paritipate in this kind of frivolity.

Thomas, the original question was posted to you also but you have opted to keep quiet when you normally have an answer, of sorts, for everything.

Dave, this isn't a trap, don't be afraid, I want to hear some views on the upside and downside to conditioning the pups for sportwork. No point in me wasting my time if there is too much of a down side.



> Dave Colborn said:
> 
> 
> > Did you ever think that you portrayed yourself as such an all knowing benevolent guru,
> ...


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, One is just how phoney the scenario's are and would be even with someone good at it. No dog would believe it is the real deal. The tests you rely so heavily on are seriously flawed and always have been and prove nothing about whether any dog will or will not protect when the threat is real.


And here it is. You are a sad, pathetic person. Your false humility couldn't even last a week. You talk a big game but you are nothing more than a dog seller. You don't work dogs, you don't hunt with dogs, you simply breed them and somehow makes you an expert on everything from behavior to obedience to personal protection.

Your dogs are curs. There is nothing you can do to change that. You can try and tell us that the test are so fake as to be unbelievable but your dogs sure as hell thought they were believable. Believable enough to run as hard as they could away.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Do you understand parody Don ?


You sound like you are desperately fighting for your life, and if breeding dogs is your profession, you have just committed professional suicide.


You lack honesty, character, sportsmanship, civility,.....integrity.


I think Dave should go ahead and tag his vid to working airedales, it is honest. You are done.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So answer the question. My dogs, even unsocialized, wouldn't think anything of someone walking up to me on the street. Took two young, totally unsocialized, dogs to the Nationals and they were cool as could be in a crowd with a lot of dogs even. Weak dogs need more socializaion and stuff than strong dogs. Always have, always will. So answer the question and keep it on track. *You notice that everyone is waiting for someone else to take a stab at it first....then everyone will have something to say.* LOL


Not me. I admit that I don't even understand the question. It won't help me to have someone else take a stab at the answer. :lol:

_“Okay, my thought, after what I saw, was to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting. I am not asking if it can be done with pups because it can. What I want to know, down to specifics, what would be the long term upside and why? What would be the long term downside and why?”_

Do you mean to desensitize pups to every “not normal” human action?
_
"I am not asking if it can be done with pups because it can."_ How? I'm floundering and have been for pages, trying to understand how "not normal" is even defined, and then how degrees of "not normal" would be decided on .... and then whether you mean that "not normal" is their new "normal" .... and on and on .... 

I am just saying that the question itself doesn't present itself to me as answerable as stated. Even asking myself for examples of tighter definition leads me in a circle, from "what is the definition of 'not normal' " to "which people?" 

I don't care if I sound stupid. I'd like to get some kind of a grip on what the question is, just for my own addled 
brain. :lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Connie, you're just encouraging him ! You're encouraging him to be himself ;-).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Does it just mean to expose pups to human actions that would be perceived as threatening to them otherwise (without desensitizing/conditioning), and playing them out as always non-threatening?

And then even that makes me say "which ones"?

And then THAT makes me say "How do I even know which ones would be dangerous to teach pups are non-threatening?"

And then a whole new set of definitions and parameters opens.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Connie, you're just encouraging him ! You're encouraging him to be himself ;-).



:lol:


Well, I quit anyway.

I admit that in no way do I see the question as a "simple question" that has some kind of answer, without a zillion words of explanation and query in between.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Not me. I admit that I don't even understand the question. It won't help me to have someone else take a stab at the answer. :lol:
> 
> _“Okay, my thought, after what I saw, was to condition the pups early to the fact people are indeed not always normal acting. I am not asking if it can be done with pups because it can. What I want to know, down to specifics, what would be the long term upside and why? What would be the long term downside and why?”_
> 
> ...


Connie, what is there to understand? I talked about conditioning the pups to people acting crazy, like Dave coming in the yard hollering and being aggressive and me joining in and acting crazy also. So, I am asking the pro's, like David suggested, a simple question. What would be the long term upsides and downside to this kind of conditioning with pups be for sportwork. I am curious and would like some opinions before I waste my time doing it.....from the pros of course. Somewhere along the line, a pro said there to be some long term draw backs to doing conditioning like this. I want to know what they are, but, apparently no pros can answer. Just goes back to a pissing contest and more of the usual bullshit because they don't know I suppose. I bet David could even come up with some pros and cons because he sill questions things.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Just like I said Connie.....

This has been an interesting if not fun thread, at least for me.

It is finished. 

Done.

That is, unless folks are into cranking up the jokes. That is cool with me for one, I love a good joke .


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Connie, what is there to understand? I talked about conditioning the pups to people acting crazy, like Dave coming in the yard hollering and being aggressive and me joining in and acting crazy also. So, I am asking the pro's, like David suggested, a simple question. What would be the long term upsides and downside to this kind of conditioning with pups be for sportwork. I am curious and would like some opinions before I waste my time doing it.....from the pros of course. Somewhere along the line, a pro said there to be some long term draw backs to doing conditioning like this. I want to know what they are, but, apparently no pros can answer. Just goes back to a pissing contest and more of the usual bullshit because they don't know I suppose. I bet David could even come up with some pros and cons because he sill questions things.


Don,
I've said it once...exposing a dog to a something is not the same as conditioning it. If you condition your dogs to act the way you want (in regards to the threat) them to and they are genetically capable, then your long term outlook would be that your dogs would continue to act the way you conditioned them to well into the future. Of course you must maintain your training. If you or your dogs are not capable of doing this, your long term outlook is not quite as positive. That is as simple as it gets. Your dogs do not have the ability to differentiate whether or not something is a real threat or not, this is why training is valuable. You will have to train your dog. 

http://www.edpsycinteractive.org/topics/behavior/operant.html


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> Don,
> I've said it once...exposing a dog to a something is not the same as conditioning it. If you condition your dogs to act the way you want (in regards to the threat) them to and they are genetically capable, then your long term outlook would be that your dogs would continue to act the way you conditioned them to well into the future. Of course you must maintain your training. If you or your dogs are not capable of doing this, your long term outlook is not quite as positive. That is as simple as it gets. Your dogs do not have the ability to differentiate whether or not something is a real threat or not, this is why training is valuable. You will have to train your dog.
> 
> http://www.edpsycinteractive.org/topics/behavior/operant.html


Charles, somehow I knew you would be the only one to have an answer. I did see your first post but wasn't sure where it was going as I know conditioning would have to be done constantly so the dogs think nothing of, say a decoy running at them. Since you broke the ice, to be more specific, I am curious as to what effect will this have on a pup concerning sportwork. Will he possibly think nothing of a person actimng as an aggressor on the training field. If so, that leads to the probability of having to teach the dog to bite when they see an aggressor on a training field. Which leads to the discussion of of the the dog being around kids that may run towards it. The dog would have to be taught to bite on command only. Just goes on and on, but, I do disagree with you that a dog cannot tell the difference between a game and a real threat.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Charles, somehow I knew you would be the only one to have an answer. I did see your forst post but wasn't sure where it was going as I know conditioning would have to be done constantly so the dogs think nothing of, say a decoy running at them. Since you broke the ice, to be more specific, I am curious as to what effect will thismhave on a pup concerning sportwork. Will he possibly think nothing of a person actimng as an aggressor on the training field. If so, that leads to the probability of having to teach the dog to bite when they see an aggressor on a training field. Which leads to the discussion of of the the dog being around kids that may run towards it. The dog would have to be taught to bite on command only. Just goes on and on, but, I do disagree with you that a dog cannot tell the difference between a game and a real threat.


There are plenty of people (many on this forum, I'm sure) with dogs that are strong PPD's, great sport dogs, and great family dogs...all in the same dog. Expose your dogs to all appropriate scenarios and condition them to react to each scenario appropriately. If you're not sure of how to go about doing this. I suggest you find someone with good reputation and trust them to help you.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

You know this is a saga, and I'm still wading thru all the pages, but in a short answer to just what Don specifically asked above - why condition pups to certain threatening actions when developing and making it a positive - I can't speak from anywhere near a sportdog view. I have only done obedience, agility, detection, some tracking, behavior work with dogs as well as pets. In my life style, I do alot outside in a barn/farm situation where lots of unexpected situations happen that arise that would be positive to train or subject the puppies to so they come to no harm and also become protective enough to guard the property and keep stray animals off the property. I raise my voice alot - to a puppy that is used to coddling, this would be a very threatening occurrance. I like my dogs to learn when I am raising my voice and it is intended for them and not this horse, or some other livestock or dog. I don't need all the dogs cringing every time I raise my voice or if I run thru the barn them scattering 3 sheets to the wind - so while these are not extreme examples that Don may be looking for, they still are conditioning to things that would not normally be done with a "pet" puppy.

Maybe not what you all are talking about but related.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Charles, somehow I knew you would be the only one to have an answer.


Spoken like the benevolent after the fact fortune teller. Like the one you are.

Give up your dogs. This will never work for you, Don. I know there is a huge draw at 40 pups a year at 900 a pup, but what are you doing to the breed, buddy?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Spoken like the benevolent after the fact fortune teller. Like the one you are.
> 
> Give up your dogs. This will never work for you, Don. I know there is a huge draw at 40 pups a year at 900 a pup, but what are you doing to the breed, buddy?


$950 I heard.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL, the usaual quality of your posts since you wouldn't even attempt an answer at a simple question Dave. Hope David see's what he is likely to learn from you.....just what you were told by the one that taught you. Aside from the fact that, my dogs are hunting dogs and you can't absorb that little detail..... I would have been surprise if you tried to answer a simple question. You said you were going to quit posting on the WDF when you were here, what happened to the "man of my word" BS lol
I am outa here. We got over 30,000 views...last 1000 waiting for an answer to a simple question to show David Ruby why I don't look to self proclaimed experts. Have a good one Dave.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Nope the only one here who wants Dave to leave is YOU. If he said he was going then I sincerely want him to reconsider. We need people like him here who can actually back up what they say. 

You can take this to the bank: You aren't chasing ANYONE off.......kind of like your dogs.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am outa here.




Sweet I ran you, just like your dogs. 

Stick to your forum and hunting dog stuff. 

Please don't misquote me about leaving here. I am still considering it as it takes my time which could be better spent, and I am not managing my time well. I said probably when I was there, as people like you, as I explained have poisonous personalities, and draw me into unimportant arguments. Meaning might leave the WDF. Not a big loss if I do one way or the other, and I am still considering it, Don. Actually asked Connie to make me an inactive user today, but she suggested a wait a day or two and think about it, which I am. I am very transparent with what I do, you can't call me out on something I have already done. 


Go get a bottle of whisky, drink it and see if you wake up with a character transplant. 

Man of your word. You can always be a man of your word, as much as your word changes. Oh, and I answered your question, you just apparently didn't catch it.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don your dogs did not react as you thought with the agreed upon scenarios even though you said several times they would bite Dave and possibly go for his face.

If you want dogs that will not run/flight from "scary" people and instead have fight what do you think you need to do as a breeder?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Sweet I ran you, just like your dogs.
> 
> Stick to your forum and hunting dog stuff.
> 
> ...


 
David...Fight or Flight?  

I would hate to see you leave.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> I would hate to see you leave.



I agree.


Is this thread over, BTW?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> David...Fight or Flight?
> 
> I would hate to see you leave.


LOL. Defense based, but I am unsure?

I flew to CA and was away from my life for two days for what proved to be nothing. Does that seem like a good idea to anyone? I could have flown and seen my folks, gone to a seminar, spent time with my girl, etc, etc.. Important stuff.

Thanks for the hating to see me leave, though. If I do, as disgruntled as I am some times with the WDF, I really like a lot of the people here and the fact that the board exists. It provides a great service to new folks to sports, SAR and police, etc, and I have learned a LOT about things I didn't know about. It has only made me better explaining things I believe, and tolerating people I don't. What I feel like sometimes is that I distract from training as much as guys like Don. I don't want to be that guy. If I can't hold myself in, then I need to leave.

Time will tell, and, to be honest, with all the knowledge here, it would be like pulling a finger out of water.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I know right now up in Minnesota.... Jim Nash is having a deep belly laugh about his thread.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> LOL. Defense based, but I am unsure?
> 
> I flew to CA and was away from my life for two days for what proved to be nothing. Does that seem like a good idea to anyone? I could have flown and seen my folks, gone to a seminar, spent time with my girl, etc, etc.. Important stuff.
> 
> Time will tell, and, to be honest, with all the knowledge here, it would be like pulling a finger out of water.


Dave by you flying out to CA for the test you did something you enjoy doing..see it for what it is and everything you experienced both good and bad.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> I know right now up in Minnesota.... Jim Nash is having a deep belly laugh about his thread.


I thought about him too .

He hasn't been hanging out with Betty has he ?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Dave by you flying out to CA for the test you did something you enjoy doing..see it for what it is and everything you experienced both good and bad.



Thanks Doug. I am just picking up on the negatives. Good call.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> Is this thread over, BTW?


You got the power to lock it!! Can I ask you to lock it as all goals were met, and video evidence is in place? If so, you got my vote quite a few posts back!!!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

lock it??? i thought now we're done with the intro stuff it might get interesting - yeah i know Connie, but lol


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> lock it??? i thought now we're done with the intro stuff it might get interesting - yeah i know Connie,I *was told to take a break and just read* but lol


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Don, if you are interested in a different way to raise up pups..i.e. sport way for lack of a better name for it, you are welcome to visit Ron and me in Aguanga, CA..it is a drive..about 6 hours though. Right now we have a 3 1/2 week old and 4 week old litter of Mals here. Both still with their moms, but will be weaned @ 5 weeks old. I raise the Beauceron pups the same way as the malinois. I think whether the pup is destined to be a police k9, sport dog or family pet, the way I raise and expose them to things, noises, people and "play" bitework and retrieve games is a good start for the pups. Right now Ron is home for a few weeks so I can also video what we do from this point on and post it as I know it's very, very difficult to get away when you have property and dogs. Ours is not "invented by us" or the end all way, but from adopting ideas from mentors around the world over the years. Again I don't see any negatives in the way we raise the pups or I wouln't do it.

I guess the only negative is that the more I interact and play with them from an early age..it's very, very easy to get attached to them and want the best for them and hurts more if an owner down the road does one wrong. But, that doesn't happen very often. 

I'm always open to new ways of feeding, raising and training the pups so to help me them be the best dogs and help me be the best evaluator to put the pup in the right home/job.

Hey, and there's a HUGE feral pig problem one county over from me..about 1 hour drive at the most in Ramona and throughout parts of San Diego County.

..I told myself I wasn't going to post on this/these threads..but, here I go. ](*,)


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Dave, take it it from a old "has been". I know it's easy to get drawn into the battle. I've been through enough business wars and have the battle scars to prove it. I spent countless hours trying to win those battles. I was successful in most instances but paid some heavy prices that I don't care to go into on a public forum. I always prided myself on winning those wars but staying on the high road while doing it.

You know what you accomplished. Take a breather if need be. You are a valued contributor to this forum. Don't fuking leave, please. 

I won't know where to find you when I want to take you up on your offer. Kidding, kind of!


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