# The Dangerous Dogs Act and Controlling Your Dog in Public



## Ashley Foster (Jun 14, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvho_zHqJjI

This is a little video I've made as part of the puppy classes we are going to start running soon. Thought it would be useful for new dog owners to understand what the legal landscape is around dogs (which can be a little weird at times). Please feel free to share it, if not to scare people into getting their dogs trained to be polite in public then at least for a chuckle at the expense of politics and the idiosyncrasies of dog legislation.

Ash.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ashley Foster said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvho_zHqJjI
> 
> This is a little video I've made as part of the puppy classes we are going to start running soon. Thought it would be useful for new dog owners to understand what the legal landscape is around dogs (which can be a little weird at times). Please feel free to share it, if not to scare people into getting their dogs trained to be polite in public then at least for a chuckle at the expense of politics and the idiosyncrasies of dog legislation.
> 
> Ash.


screw that....

if someone is merely worried that your dog might do something, you can be charged??? that is a crock of crap....

what if the people have bad nerves, or are scared of dogs period???


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

^^^^^^

I was thinking the exact same thing. Someone just doesn't like dogs and they can charge you with having a dangerous dog? WTF


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's some additional info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_Dogs_Act_1991

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/d/dangerousdogsact/#.UkJD6Bxa4zA

http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm86/8601/8601.pdf


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> screw that....
> 
> if someone is merely worried that your dog might do something, you can be charged??? that is a crock of crap....
> 
> what if the people have bad nerves, or are scared of dogs period???


 That's the UK for you. The pendulum of idiocy has swung so hard to the left that common sense is completely flushed. Just look at their Health and Safety rules. Insane


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just a thought!
Why not make *OWNERS* responsible for their dogs instead of making them responsible for all the idiots around them?
Naw! That's to logical!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> screw that....
> 
> if someone is merely worried that your dog might do something, you can be charged??? that is a crock of crap....
> 
> what if the people have bad nerves, or are scared of dogs period???


Told you eh.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

If you don't think it can happen here in the US think again. I get calls every day from people that are afraid of their neighbors dogs and demand that something is done. The dog have not done anything and no laws have been broken. We are becoming a nanny state and I swear that some days I am just an armed guideness counselor.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

eric squires said:


> If you don't think it can happen here in the US think again. I get calls every day from people that are afraid of their neighbors dogs and demand that something is done. The dog have not done anything and no laws have been broken. We are becoming a nanny state and I swear that some days I am just an armed guideness counselor.


 
Agreed.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

eric squires said:


> If you don't think it can happen here in the US think again. I get calls every day from people that are afraid of their neighbors dogs and demand that something is done. The dog have not done anything and no laws have been broken. We are becoming a nanny state and I swear that some days I am just an armed guideness counselor.


 I've got some other words to describe what the US has become and it aint as nice as calling them nannies...but it does start with a p and ends in an s....not to veer off topic, but after the lawsuits of the head injuries in NFL, I just smh and said wtf have we become??


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

(d)
Any animal that, when unprovoked, has engaged in any behavior that constitutes a physical threat of bodily harm to a person or domestic animal or poses an immediate threat to public safety. 

This is part of the definition of a potentially dangerous dog where I live. So if someone is scared of your dog, they could call animal control.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yup, add to this that any correction to your dog for 'behaviour' is not only frowned upon but these same 'public' will actually have a go at you for doing it if not call the law.


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## Ashley Foster (Jun 14, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> Yup, add to this that any correction to your dog for 'behaviour' is not only frowned upon but these same 'public' will actually have a go at you for doing it if not call the law.


Amen to that, brother.

When I was asked to make this video I couldn't believe what the actual state of affairs was. I try to be as impartial and factual as I can in the video, but the mind set and the wording of it all seems so peculiar. Makes you wonder if the people writing it have ever seen a dog.

That said, though, as long as your dog is well behaved in public you shouldn't have an issue as even the most hysterical cynophobic would have to actually prove your dog was behaving in a way that was threatening. The whole point of these classes is to get everyones dogs to be polite little citizens anyway, so they shouldn't have any trouble either way O


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

We may have loads of legislation and most of it may be crap but most of it isn't enforced because the only people on the streets are PCSO's with no powers.:-$


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

eric squires said:


> If you don't think it can happen here in the US think again. I get calls every day from people that are afraid of their neighbors dogs and demand that something is done. The dog have not done anything and no laws have been broken. We are becoming a nanny state and I swear that some days I am just an armed guideness counselor.


It's not that I think it can happen here. I just really ain't gonna worry about it. I see people worrying about a lot of shit. And I wonder how the hell are they happy. People worried about Schutzhund being banned, Worried if we are going to follow suit with the UK on dog laws, e-collar bans, Worried what if the president has some sinister plan to turn the white house into Muslim terrorist central, Worried that they are eating to many mosanto foods. Worried about the economy, worried about Iran, worried about Fracking, worried that positive dog trainers are wrong, worried that they are trialing, worried that they I am not worried, Worried about everything....I am glad I do not suffer from thinking like that, it's exhausting just watching people do it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> It's not that I think it can happen here. I just really ain't gonna worry about it. I see people worrying about a lot of shit. And I wonder how the hell are they happy. People worried about Schutzhund being banned, Worried if we are going to follow suit with the UK on dog laws, e-collar bans, Worried what if the president has some sinister plan to turn the white house into Muslim terrorist central, Worried that they are eating to many mosanto foods. Worried about the economy, worried about Iran, worried about Fracking, worried that positive dog trainers are wrong, worried that they are trialing, worried that they I am not worried, Worried about everything....I am glad I do not suffer from thinking like that, it's exhausting just watching people do it.


voicing a quick opinion about something, I dont think means autaomatically that someone is actually "worried" about something


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## Ashley Foster (Jun 14, 2012)

James Downey said:


> It's not that I think it can happen here. I just really ain't gonna worry about it. I see people worrying about a lot of shit. And I wonder how the hell are they happy. People worried about Schutzhund being banned, Worried if we are going to follow suit with the UK on dog laws, e-collar bans, Worried what if the president has some sinister plan to turn the white house into Muslim terrorist central, Worried that they are eating to many mosanto foods. Worried about the economy, worried about Iran, worried about Fracking, worried that positive dog trainers are wrong, worried that they are trialing, worried that they I am not worried, Worried about everything....I am glad I do not suffer from thinking like that, it's exhausting just watching people do it.


I feel the same way. I try to keep the mind set that 'stuff I can't control, like politics or what other people think and do, I'm not going to worry about, but stuff that I can control like what books, food, entertainment I consume, how I train, what I think and say and the example I give, I will put my energy into that.'

At least I try. Sometimes you get sucked in.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ashley Foster said:


> I feel the same way. I try to keep the mind set that 'stuff I can't control, like politics or what other people think and do, I'm not going to worry about, but stuff that I can control like what books, food, entertainment I consume, how I train, what I think and say and the example I give, I will put my energy into that.'
> 
> At least I try. Sometimes you get sucked in.


only thing I would add, is if everyone didnt worry about policies, and thought they were beyond any influence, that would be a sad state of affairs.

people can make a difference, if they choose to put in the effort.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> ^^^^^^
> 
> I was thinking the exact same thing. Someone just doesn't like dogs and they can charge you with having a dangerous dog? WTF


Change this to:

Someone doesn't like you - even has a grudge against you and they can run to the police and have you charged with having a dog that barks a lot, etc. Very often the canine is not the issue #-o

After our law that all *serious* dog bites had to be registered by the vetinerary surgeon, the President of the Swiss Kennel Club pleaded that people didn't become denunciants. This fell on deaf hears with some handlers. Some vets even registered minor bites.

Before this law came in, we did this fairly under oursleves. My colleagues dog bit my young Landseer and it was a bite that caused him blood poisioning. We got him to the vet in time but neither we, or our colleage had any problems with each other. It was an accident!! He tied his adult dog to our 9 month old Landseer during a rest in the restaurant on a Club hike.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

My point in commenting was that i see these laws as a trend that is happening across the developed countries. I am concerned because i know that many of them get passed without the public knowledge other than the animal rights groups input. We as the working dog communtiy need to be aware of what is coming down the road at us.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ashley Foster said:


> Amen to that, brother.
> 
> When I was asked to make this video I couldn't believe what the actual state of affairs was. I try to be as impartial and factual as I can in the video, but the mind set and the wording of it all seems so peculiar. Makes you wonder if the people writing it have ever seen a dog.
> 
> That said, though, as long as your dog is well behaved in public you shouldn't have an issue as even the most hysterical cynophobic would have to actually prove your dog was behaving in a way that was threatening. The whole point of these classes is to get everyones dogs to be polite little citizens anyway, so they shouldn't have any trouble either way O


I was witness to the draft amendments and the embargoed release, it was worrying stuff.



Guy Williams said:


> We may have loads of legislation and most of it may be crap but most of it isn't enforced because the only people on the streets are PCSO's with no powers.:-$


HAHAHAHAHAHA!



eric squires said:


> My point in commenting was that i see these laws as a trend that is happening across the developed countries. I am concerned because i know that many of them get passed without the public knowledge other than the animal rights groups input. We as the working dog communtiy need to be aware of what is coming down the road at us.


One of my concerns about all this is I think it is possibly nothing to do with 'public interest' but actually has more sinister roots. e.i to help out bailiffs in the wave of house repossessions that are coming our way in the uk.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Q for the Brits who are aware of dog statistics in the UK

would this quote be considered a pack of fabricated lies and B.S. ?

"Dangerous dogs in the UK are a major problem - and this page is updated at least once every 48 hours with the latest news on dangerous dogs. Last updated on the 25th of September 2013. Every so often, there's news of someone, usually a small child, somewhere in the UK, who has had the misfortune to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Dog bites are a major child-health problem in the United Kingdom, exceeding the total combined number of cases of measles, whooping cough and mumps in the UK each year. Dog attacks in the UK are also one of the most common causes of severe facial lacerations in children. Each year, approximately 28,000 facial dog bites are reported in the UK, with just over 19,000 of them requiring plastic surgery. "

i'd be glad to PM the web site it came from, (not PETA), but due to the pics of kids with horrific facial bites i won't post it here 

i hate restrictive laws as much as anyone, but even if some of this is true it seems like there IS a problem that needs to be dealt with and restrictive laws regarding dog ownership and dog handling will always be the first step that lawmakers will take. that much is a no brainer

either way, i'm very curious to know if there is a dog bite problem or not in the UK


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

That sounds like a bit of an exageration. Everything I can find seems to suggest that hospital admissions have just tipped the 6000 per year mark. Of these kids are most likely to get bitten and they tend to get bitten in the face. 

There is an increase in prosecutions for dangerous dog offences too but this is possibly a combination in the 'where there's blame there's a claim' mentality and that most forces have now appointed Dog Legislation officers to start enforcing the Dangerous Dogs Act. Most of this is in relation to pit bull ownership, not necessarily incidents of dogs being dangerous.

With an estimated 8 million dogs and 65 million people in the Uk, I would say that there is an issue but that it probably isn't much better or worse than anywhere else.


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## Ashley Foster (Jun 14, 2012)

rick smith said:


> Q for the Brits who are aware of dog statistics in the UK
> 
> would this quote be considered a pack of fabricated lies and B.S. ?
> 
> ...


That is obviously written for emotional impact. Any rational person would expect dog bites to "exceed the total combined number of cases of measles, whooping cough and mumps in the UK each year", these diseases have been all but eradicated by science in a modern developed country like Great Britain. I'd imagine the number of child accidents caused by ironing exceeds the cases of those diseases, too.

Dogs are in almost every home, with big numbers like that it'd be strange if there weren't accidents. The problem is exacerbated by the sensationalism that comes with a bite story in the media. I've been trying to find accurate bite statistics for the UK and other countries so I could compare how effective dog legislation really is, but I've found it impossible.

I'm not saying people should be causal about accidents involving dogs, but the perspective is waaay skewed. For example, where they claim that dogs are one of the main causes of 'facial lacerations', I'd put money on car accidents being the number 1 cause of the same injury, but car accidents have little to no emotional traction in the public sentiment.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

of course it's written for emotional impact ... it's an emotional issue ](*,)
...just like posting pics of kids faces torn up brings out emotions

the statements that hit me had nothing to do with a comparison to diseases that have almost been eradicated, and imo it's hardly worth discussing the irrelevance of that insignificant portion of the quote

but imo THIS statement has a bit more "relevance" :
"Each year, approximately 28,000 facial dog bites are reported in the UK, with just over 19,000 of them requiring plastic surgery. "

either it's true or it's B.S.

i also realize data can be used to prove almost anything ... 

but pointing out that there are millions of nice dogs really doesn't prove anything either 
...it's the ones that aren't nice that matter ... either that number is too many or it's acceptable

i just felt there must be statistics to back up the counterclaim that it's NOT a problem that needs overly restrictive laws to correct, so i was suggesting use facts to build your case rather than relying on (emotional) statements that the laws are stupid, whether it worries you or not

and if the so called "facts" that help make the case are in error, expose them and dispel them

suggestions :
1. after the incident, dig deeper... make it EXTREMELY public and expose the backgrounds of the OWNERS whose dogs kill people. put the blame where it should be
- putting an owners face and bio next to every kids face who was disfigured for life might eventually help educate people where the real problem lies...all i see is a lot of pics of pit bulls ](*,)
2. getting a reputable training facility to immediately take the dog and rehab it rather than euthanize it would also quickly dispel the myth that certain breeds are killers. this does happen when fighting dog rings are broken up, so i figure the same could be applied to a more higher profile "dog rips kid's face" situation that grabs more media attention

**i'm willing to bet that the vast majority of dogs who actually have killed people are owned by scumbags in society, which, when exposed, might help change public awareness that it is rarely only the breed or the dog who was at fault

basically, my point is if all you do is promote how good dogs can be good, you are helping the cause, but you are not fighting a balanced battle .... 
...and bitching about dumb laws is even more ineffective


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Rick, I don't know acurately if it is bullshit or not, however I can tell you, the little girl next door got bit on the face by her JRT quite a severe bite, despite my telling the family the dog would bite the kid eventually. He was high drive working line JRT from one of the farms and he was getting bog all to do everyday.
It was so bad my mrs was training him over the fence, he was awesome, she taught him to climb the steps of the slide and go down the slide all from the other side of the fence, what a waste, anyway he went after that but he didn't get euth, in fact they kept it quiet he went to another farm she didn't need plastic surgery.
In this week I met another little girl with scaring on her face from a dog bite, she wanted to meet one of my dobes so that was good she wasn't wrecked by it.
The Mrs works in A&E and she sees at least one dog bite a week, just this week a delivery driver had his arms ripped to shreds by, wait for it....... a labrador.
Also the majority of 'facial bites' are just like the little girl next door results of not teaching kids how to interact with dogs.
'Aw fido wants a kiss goodnight' and WHAM there's a JRT stuck on their faces.
The vast majority of dog bites are not from dogs owned by scumbags, but rather family pets either biting family members (usually kids) or delivery people, postman, gas man. general delivery people.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Q for the Brits who are aware of dog statistics in the UK
> 
> would this quote be considered a pack of fabricated lies and B.S. ?
> 
> ...


Hi Rick :smile:

That web site read with a particular anti dog bias based on selective interpretation.

Here is a link with some actual statistics (for England) from the Health & Social Care Information Centre

http://www.hscic.gov.uk/article/210...nder-10s-accounting-for-one-in-six-admissions 

There is a little more analysis here (linked from same site)..

https://catalogue.ic.nhs.uk/publica...prov-mont-hes-admi-outp-ae-apr-12-toi-rep.pdf

Quote taken from above link ^ 
"Dog bites are the most common form of bites and reports of serious dog attacks resulting in fatalities, usually involving young children, receive a lot of media coverage. However, such cases are very rare in England: in 2010, there were two deaths as a result of dog bites."


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Max Vandart said:

The vast majority of dog bites are not from dogs owned by scumbags, but rather family pets either biting family members (usually kids) or delivery people, postman, gas man. general delivery people.

I'll second that.

The ironic thing is, the JRT would not have to be muzzled or kept on a short lead in Canton Vaud.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting
looks like statistics should include WHERE the bite occurred, and if the majority were in the home and directed at members of the family a prudent law would have to require these "dangerous dogs" to be muzzled and on short leads while AT HOME, correct ? //lol//

i'm looking at the stats provided and it seems to indicate that we need to have more info about the owner provided in order to really nail down why they happen

but somehow i just feel the owner has to be held more accountable and this doesn't seem to be reflected in statistics...until it is, the dog and breed will always be blamed and more stupid laws will be written and we will keep going in the wrong direction and blaming canine animals instead of the human ones

-- i say, use the power of social media to put them in the spotlight where they belong instead of feeling sorry for them because it was their child that got disfigured ... because of their negligence and ignorance ](*,)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

rick smith said:


> interesting
> looks like statistics should include WHERE the bite occurred, and if the majority were in the home and directed at members of the family a prudent law would have to require these "dangerous dogs" to be muzzled and on short leads while AT HOME, correct ? //lol//
> 
> i'm looking at the stats provided and it seems to indicate that we need to have more info about the owner provided in order to really nail down why they happen
> ...


Interesting site... http://www.thebluedog.org/en/professionals/dog-bite-data/headline-facts-and-figures

*Incidence and site of bites in children*


The majority of accidents involving children are within the home involving a known dog._ Horisberger (2002), Kahn et al (2003)_
The prevalence of dog bites in children is double that of the general population. _Kahn et al (2003)_
Dog bites in young children often result in facial or neck injuries. _Bernado et al (2002), Kahn et al( 2003)_
With regard to the incidence of facial bites – this appears unrelated to the size of the dog. The only correlating factor is the age of the child. _Bernardo et al (2002), Kahn et al (2003)_
55% of children suffer Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) following a substantial bite._ Peters et al (2004)_
It has been shown that young children explore novel objects, especially those that are mobile, with their face._ Meints et al (2010)_
Young children score badly in discriminating dog body language and look mainly at the face of the dog to make their decisions._Lakestani et al (2005)_
Very young children may misinterpret a snarling dog for one that is smiling. _Meints et al (2010)_.
*Geographic location of dog bites*


Contrary to popular belief, only 20% of all dog bites occur in a public place. _Kahn et al (2003), Miller and Howell (2007), Gilchrist et al (2003)_
80% of all dog bites occur in the home. _Kahn et al (2003), Miller and Howell (2007), Gilchrist et al (2003)_
The majority of accidents involving children are within the home involving a known dog. _Horisberger (2002), Kahn et al (2003)_
*Parental supervision*


The majority of accidents occur when there is lack of active parental supervision. _Kahn et al (2003)_
In relation to domestic accidents in children between 3 and 5 years of age, physical proximity was the only aspect of supervision behaviour that served a protective function and related to young children’s risk taking behaviour. _Morongiello et al (2004)_
Parental input had a positive effect on children’s ability to learn from the Blue Dog CD. _Meints and De Keuster (2009)_


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : Interesting site... http://www.thebluedog.org/en/profess...ts-and-figures

hmmmm...yes; interesting...starting to connect the dots

still see little or nothing about owner responsibility and accountability in these websites

i thought there was some kind of basic law against "child abuse due to parental negligence" in every developed country, but i guess it never happens since dogs don't get a chance to have a lawyer represent them.
dogs need someone to advocate for them besides PETA

hate to sound like a broken record, but i still think social media could be the key ... properly used and manipulated it could have a large impact on changing public awareness of where the real problems lie
- or a well shot, well directed public interest commercial financed by someone with the right intentions and deep pockets ? Cesar Millan ? the Alpha Dog owners ? that Brit lady with the black boots ? //lol//

- if people (owners) were held accountable there would probably be less dogs bought and sold and more opportunities for trainers to train. especially when they learn that their little little lap warming petting accessory could still disfigure a child's face for life and that it wasn't those bloodthirsty pit bulls roaming the neighborhoods looking for a face to rip off. they might even think twice and choose a wind up doggy instead


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

One of the problems rick is its not usually maliciousness that causes these bites, it's ignorance.
How to interact with dogs and dog body language should be taught in every stage of education. I say every stage because kids get cocky in teen years. My oldest son is a perfect example, he is very good with dogs but he is still getting a bit cocky with my dobes I always pen them when I am out and yes in the house on his own because I think he has become cocky enough to think he could break a fight up between them - bad idea.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I rmeember I was walking my dog the other day by a strip mall. Not a strip club but a sort of mini mall. And a person said to me "why do you people always walk your dogs here". ANd I said...what do you mean "you people". And he said " you dog owners" and I said I am not that white pal so you better just move along. Man was I ticked.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Recently joined the UK gsd forum and have already been told that e collars and prongs are cruel amd inhumane instruments of pain. Was also shown some bs study where trainers zapped dogs without beginning collar work and decided that since their stress levels went up it was the collars fault. Im trying to explain how incorrect that is but its like trying to describe color to somone who was born blind.. 
I was also told Mario V and Shade whitsell (I think thats her name..) are now purely posative schutzhund trainers as they have found "better ways"... I know i should quit but its like a train wreck you cant stop looking. I truly understand how these laws came into being.


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## Ashley Foster (Jun 14, 2012)

Haz Othman said:


> Recently joined the UK gsd forum and have already been told that e collars and prongs are cruel amd inhumane instruments of pain. Was also shown some bs study where trainers zapped dogs without beginning collar work and decided that since their stress levels went up it was the collars fault. Im trying to explain how incorrect that is but its like trying to describe color to somone who was born blind..
> I was also told Mario V and Shade whitsell (I think thats her name..) are now purely posative schutzhund trainers as they have found "better ways"... I know i should quit but its like a train wreck you cant stop looking. I truly understand how these laws came into being.


I know lots of people who have tried to do IPO/Schutzhund using only Positive+, they always start off thinking they've invented the wheel and they always always always fail.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ashley Foster said:


> I know lots of people who have tried to do IPO/Schutzhund using only Positive+, they always start off thinking they've invented the wheel and they always always always fail.


OK Ashley, tell me how you set your dog up for IPO 1.

I am not a positive only trainer so don't be shy :lol:


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Ashley Foster said:


> I know lots of people who have tried to do IPO/Schutzhund using only Positive+, they always start off thinking they've invented the wheel and they always always always fail.


Lol I did mention your recent success at the worlds and no one deigned to say anything lol. Have also posted numerous vids of dogs working on prongs some from this site looking happy and engaged. All they say is how the same can be achieved with only posative techniques. So far only vids they have posted is someone clicker training a mal in the field.... But really I have to stop the blood pressure is going up as it is.


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