# I got my first "war wound" at training Saturday



## Kristen Cabe

At training Saturday, I was kicking the sleeve out from under Jak after he'd let go of it, and he went for it again and got my leg just above my knee. No punctures, but man is there a nasty looking bruise there now! He basically just 'pinched' my leg with his front teeth, and there _was_ a surface scratch that's about gone now, I guess from his right canine, but no blood or anything. Glad I was wearing jeans, though! I haven't gotten a good picture because the flash reflects off my ghostly white legs, but I'll try again this evening sans flash and see if I can get a picture that shows the bruise. :lol:


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## Alicia Mertz

Yeah, the first time they let Jaeger have the sleeve, I reached down to take it from him and boy, the trainer flipped out.  :lol: He was so afraid that I'd get bitten. I guess this is why... :roll: 

Sorry Jak got you!  I'm sure you know he didn't mean it. Not that it makes it hurt any less... :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe

It doesn't hurt unless something bumps up against it or hubby hits it being mean. :lol: It is starting to turn that nasty yellow color though. Jak has never bitten me when I've taken things out of his mouth, and he wasn't trying to bite me Saturday - my leg just happened to be in the way when he went to grab the sleeve after being choked off it!


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## Alicia Mertz

Sorry if I made it sound as though Jak was trying to bite you!  Didn't mean it that way at all. I just meant when they're so focused on the sleeve, sometimes they don't notice (or can't react quickly enough) to the arm/leg in the way! :lol: 

Jaeger has never bitten me when I've taken something from him either, nor do I think he would. So I understand completely.


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## Greg Long

Sorry, but I dont see this as a good thing.Your dog should never bite you.They are very capable of not biting you even when moving at lightning speed.
I dont train that way anymore.Heck I hardly ever use a sleeve.

If you are training for Schut I understand why you want to train like that but for serious work its counterproductive IMO.

Not trying to argue but I had to say something.

Greg


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## Kristen Cabe

Oh I know what you meant, Alicia. :wink: 

Greg, I honestly don't know what to say to your post.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Welcome to the club...I always have a (or several) big bruise somewhere :roll: jumping through the women, catching my fingers instead of the ball or biteroll...


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## Kristen Cabe

Here are the lovely pictures. Click to enlarge:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Our decoy has those bruises everytime(3 times a week) he does decoywork (upperarm front & rear, lower leg)...the joy of a leather and jute suit (KNPV suit)...


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## Andres Martin

Kristen...

I think that what Greg is saying is that Prey development makes a dog bite "movement", plus it makes a dog want to "possess" the prey item...it does not teach a dog to discriminate and control its own drive. I agree with Greg. Your dog is a youngster, and from the videos you've posted, I think he's pretty forward. If you keep on with prey development AND your dog does not learn to be careful with YOU, out of complete respect and submission to you, you may encounter some challenges when he matures that will be difficult to correct.

Anyways...

What did you do when your dog bit you?

BTW...you need a tan. Come to El Salvador.


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## Kristen Cabe

I used to tan, but I'd rather be white than get cancer, so I'll just be white. LoL I can always use the tan in a bottle, but I don't like waiting for it to dry so I just don't use it. I don't wear shorts much anyway because I have fat legs.  :lol: 


I understand what you're saying about prey development and respect, etc. but I am sure it was just an accident. I know some will say that dogs do not 'accidentally' bite anything; if they bite you they meant to bite you, and if they didn't, they weren't really trying to. I agree with that to an extent, but I don't think it applied to this situation. I had just choked him off the sleeve, still had him up in the air, went to kick the sleeve towards the helper, who was advancing towards us to get the sleeve, and Jak was reacting to the helper approaching, I think, and was trying to 'guard' the sleeve from being taken. We do that sometimes once the sleeve has been kicked out; I'll hold him so he can just barely not reach the sleeve, and the helper will advance as if he's going to take the sleeve, and when Jak barks at him, he will retreat. 

I can take anything I want away from Jak, with not so much as a growl out of him. He lets me have it. I'm not really worried about this incident, but I will keep an eye on him for other warning signs. 

What did I do? Absolutely nothing; I didn't even realized it'd happened for a couple of seconds, and then I noticed my knee hurt a little and figured out what had happened. By then it was too late; he was already barking at the helper again.


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## Jerry Lyda

Kristen, don't worry about that little bite. You should worry if he don't bite. He was just caught up in the game. You're leg eas in the wrong place at the wrong time. If there's one amoung us, handlers or trainers that haven't been bit then we're doing something wrong. If you play with fire you WILL get burnt. If you mess with the bitting dog sport you WILL get bit. It's all part of the game.
If this happens when the game is not being played, that's a different. 

Do you remember seeing my male Bentley? He brusies and even has brought blood though the sleeve. Heaven help me if this happens when I'm handling him. He has niped me on the side when he thought he had waited long enough before I sent him for the blind search. Frustration, and after the second time He don't get frustrated any more. That DID stop. Jak was after movement and he was in prey. Go gett'em Jak. I still think he's a very nice dog.


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## Tim Martens

Jerry Lyda said:


> Kristen, don't worry about that little bite. You should worry if he don't bite. He was just caught up in the game. You're leg eas in the wrong place at the wrong time. If there's one amoung us, handlers or trainers that haven't been bit then we're doing something wrong. If you play with fire you WILL get burnt. If you mess with the bitting dog sport you WILL get bit. It's all part of the game.
> If this happens when the game is not being played, that's a different.
> 
> Do you remember seeing my male Bentley? He brusies and even has brought blood though the sleeve. Heaven help me if this happens when I'm handling him. He has niped me on the side when he thought he had waited long enough before I sent him for the blind search. Frustration, and after the second time He don't get frustrated any more. That DID stop. Jak was after movement and he was in prey. Go gett'em Jak. I still think he's a very nice dog.


thank god some common sense. i was about to eat my mouse reading all that crap about this being a big problem. he was trying to bite the sleeve and missed. no different than biting a hand holding a ball or a finger attached to a treat. this has NOTHING to do with a lack or respect or dominance. geez....


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## Robert Blok

Andres Martin said:


> Kristen...
> 
> BTW...you need a tan. Come to El Salvador.



Kirsten, one training session with us and you have a great suntan 8) 8) 

I have been bitten by my dogs as well, kicking the sleeve away and in the heat of things just a quick nip. It only happened twice (see Jerry's comments) and they never did it since. It too was in their early stages of bite work. Bear now shows excellent control.
NO WORRY GIRL!!! DA BITE IS PART OF DA GAME 8) Both are learning...

Rob


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## Greg Long

When I do bite training nowadays it is no game.There are no balls or treats for them to snap at.I dont do any prey building as most of you guys dh I used to.Ive been bitten just like that before.
All I was saying is that from a different point of view , its not good at all.I understand WHY you are doing it and I have done the same excercises in the past.All I am saying is that I dont agree.Im not saying you should or shouldnt do it, for your own goals may require it.All I want is for people to know that not everyone believes that is the right way to do bitework.If Im wrong then Im sure someone will point that out to me... :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Greg


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## Tim Martens

Greg Long said:


> When I do bite training nowadays it is no game.There are no balls or treats for them to snap at.I dont do any prey building as most of you guys dh I used to.Ive been bitten just like that before.
> All I was saying is that from a different point of view , its not good at all.I understand WHY you are doing it and I have done the same excercises in the past.All I am saying is that I dont agree.Im not saying you should or shouldnt do it, for your own goals may require it.All I want is for people to know that not everyone believes that is the right way to do bitework.If Im wrong then Im sure someone will point that out to me... :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Greg


perhaps i overstated my opinion. i would never say you are "wrong". i don't know how you do your thing. it may work great and probably does. just keep in mind that there are still people doing things "the old fashioined way" and they are getting good results.

i didn't mean to say that treats or balls have their place in bite training. i was just equating a dog biting a hand when targeting a ball to the dog biting kristen's leg while targeting the sleeve. they are the same behavior and neither is aggressive or dominant toward the handler...

i have been bitten by my current dog many times. it used to occur when there was a decoy in front of us (with equipment, without equipment didn't matter). when the decoy engaged the dog (sometimes movement, sometimes just eye contact), the dog would break his down and i would have to correct him back into it. he would get so worked up into a frenzy and occasionally he would turn around and nip my arm or hand. that was frustration. we worked on that and he hasn't done it in quite some time. kristen you too will work on injecting control into the dog, but for now, i think you are doing the right thing by just keeping him interested. you can inject the control later. even then there are no guarantees that this won't happen again. i just wouldn't go overboard correcting him when it happens for now...


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## Greg Long

Ahhh..but I am referring to the old fashioned way.

Yes it is dominance and lack of respect toward the handler.Either that or the dog is so nuts it doesnt know what it is doing.You dont have to build prey drive in order to have a hard hitting dog but maybe you do for a full grip.  
Either way all that thrashing around and barking after an inanimate object is just a waste of energy to me.


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## Tim Martens

Greg Long said:


> Yes it is dominance and lack of respect toward the handler..


 :roll:


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## jay lyda

Its just a frustation thing. No one knows your dog like you do. If you know that Jak doesn't have handler aggression then I wouldn't give it a second thought. He just got caught up in the moment and out of frustration gave you a nip. You'll know if it ever turns to aggression and then you have to open the gate to hell and correct it at once. But I really don't believe it'll come to that. I've gotten bit by my female GSD but a totally different circumstance. We were out in public and a man came up with another GSD off leash. So immediately I gave the platz command and told the guy that he needs to keep his dog back. But being an idiot he said that his dog was fine. So what happend, his dog came right up to her and then cut around me and she went for him. I got caught in the middle. As she went, I went straight up with the leash and hollard platz and she hit the ground. But after she got me between the legs. If it was any closer I wouldn't have to worry about having any more kids! Her correction was for breaking the down even though she felt there was a threat. I could have gave that guy a few corrections, especially since he still did not leash his dog. I know for a fact that her biting me was not intentional so I didn't give it a second thought. Its not that she is so much dog aggresive but she will engage whether it be a dog or person causing a threat. Thats what she is suppose to do, keeping my wife and kids safe, and me. Sorry for straying off the subject a bit.


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## jay lyda

Oops! Sorry for the double post.


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## Andres Martin

I meekly and gingerly enter the fray...I only do it because I think there is actually something of value to add.

Tim, you can't knock it until you've tried it.

To make a clear example of this wild and crazy prey development PROBLEM in a street dog, I have some straight forward questions for you:

Out of all your street bites, how many involved you and yours...AND your dog trying to submit an uncooperative bad guy? Were they mostly bites where you sent your dog alone, then took him off the bite after submission so you and yours could apprehend?

Has your dog ever had to pass between your buddies to bite more than one bad guy within a minute's lapse?

Do you trust your dog to NOT bite YOU, if he has to go through you to get to the bad guy?

Try this in training...
Down your dog, search the "bad guy", have the bad guy attack you and use you as a shield against your dog. You should wear dark clothes, muzzle your dog, apply some chalk to the outside of the muzzle, and after the dust settles, examine your clothing for chalk marks. You may find out some interesting stuff.

How does your dog react if there are two decoys within 20' of each other present on the field; one that is active, but not threatening, and wearing a bite suit, and one that is passive, but is yelling at you with a gun in his hand, and wearing no equipment?

There is no ONE way. No ONE holds the entire truth. I don't mean to ridicule anyone's opinion or methods. To each his own. But maybe we learn from each other...even if we learn what NOT to do.

No roll-eyes here.


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## Alicia Mertz

After reading Andres post, I have to say, I would imagine quite a few SchH handlers (not necessarily anyone on this board...just making a generalization) would be very surprised by the results of those "experiments". Even with my somewhat inexperienced eye, I find it fairly easy to separate the dogs who see protection work as a game (those working strictly off of prey drive) and those who see the threatening decoy, not the sleeve, as the ultimate target.

Andres, in the scenario you described where the "bad guy" uses you as a shield - if you should find chalk marks on your clothing after the exercise, how would you correct that? To both you and Greg - if your dog were to bite you during protection work, either intentionally or otherwise, what level of correction is given? Is it proportionate to the level of the bite or is it automatically hard/strong?


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## Greg Long

The most important training guidelines for me are.

1.Train as realistic and seriously as possible from the beginning.

2.Develop the dogs ability to discern threat from a nonthreat from day one.

3.Develop the dog's confidence both in his own abilities and in you as a partner.

Andres,
Those are good tests indeed.I dont believe all PSDs would fail but many would.

Tim,
I never said your training was ineffective..I have no idea.

Alicia,
Not telling you to do it but the level of correction would be life threatening for the dog. :wink: Although it would probably be counterproductive for sport and your training director would have a heartattack. :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe

I had no idea that posting this would result in such a discussion! Not that I mind, because I think some interesting points are being brought up. Keep it coming, guys!


Right now, Jak is being worked in strictly prey (yes, I know that dogs can switch between drives and blah blah blah, but what I mean is that we are not intentionally putting pressure on him or threatening him, to bring out defense yet). Right now he's being trained as a SchH dog because I would like to compete with him. Later, we'll work on weaning him off equipment, but for now, that's not an issue. All he did was try to get the sleeve back and I was in the way. Plain and simple. The bite was meant for the sleeve, not for me. I'm not worried about it at all, because Jak does not try to 'challenge'/dominate me or show disrespect to me in any other aspect of our lives. He is absolutely not a handler aggressive dog.


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## Alicia Mertz

Greg Long said:


> Alicia,
> Not telling you to do it but the level of correction would be life threatening for the dog. :wink: Although it would probably be counterproductive for sport and your training director would have a heartattack. :lol:


Eh, I like stirring up trouble. :wink: It's how I survive the work day. :lol:


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## Tim Martens

andres,

i think you have misinterpreted what i have said. i am talking about prey development in a YOUNG dog. prey alone is absolutely not the sole drive developed in an older dog or one that is working the street. this is bite DEVELOPMENT i'm talking about. greg said he doesn't use it at all even in young dogs. that is the difference being discussed here and i'm not "knocking" anything. being a proponent of one idea doesn't make you an opponent of a different idea.

only 1 of my dogs street bites occurred in close proximity to other officers, but the dog was put on the suspect when other officers weren't that close. they closed in once the dog was on the bite.

do i trust my dog to not bite me if he has to go past me for a bite? probably. i've been doing this long enough to know nothing is 100%. we do scenarios like this in training and he does fine. i would not hesitate to try it on the street, full well knowing there is a chance i would get bit.

as far as your scenario with two bad guys 20' apart, one wearing a suit, yelling and one guy not wearing a suit with a gun. totally unrealistic scenario set up to make a dog fail. my dog (or any other for that matter) can't see a gun from a realistic distance away. i would argue that isn't a dog scenario. i don't know how you do things over there, but i would not send my dog to apprehend someone with a gun. you're just asking to have your dog shot and when he does get shot what do you do then? you're in the same boat or worse because your dog is now bleeding out and the guy still has a gun. our courts have said we do not have the right to shoot a suspect because they have injured our dog (sure there are creative ways to write a report to justify this action, but that's not a discussion for here and i would not compromise my integrity to do it).

i agree that an aggressive bite of the handler should be addressed with life altering consequences in the protection or police dog.


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## Tim Martens

double freakin post...


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## Greg Long

I think it was on this forum that Andres explains how he starts a young pup.This is similar to what Im talking about.The pup isnt in prey and really isnt in defensive social aggression.I dont know how to explain it but the pup is very serious.Im talking about a pup 3 to 4 months old.From there the pups confidence is built up and it is exposed to many different scenarios and stresses.By the time the pup is old enough to work the street,it is a confident and capable dog that is really tough on the bad guys and very stable to those it works around.
No I dont do ANY prey drive promotion beyond going after the decoy.The young pups learn from older dogs and from the handler.
If the pup or dog bites the handler for any reason be it a mistake or not,it is corrected.There is no worry about reducing the dog's drive,the handler is what drives the dog and not the bite or the sleeve or the tug.If these things are what drives the dog then the dog is working for himself.
So if the helper is agitating the dog and he bites you or if he goes after the sleeve at all costs then the dog is working for himself.Plain and simple.Just like many many sport dogs and many many PSDs are working for themselves and not their handlers.


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## Kristen Cabe

> if he goes after the sleeve at all costs then the dog is working for himself.Plain and simple. Just like many many sport dogs and many many PSDs are working for themselves and not their handlers.


At this point in the game, that's perfectly fine. I don't care if he's working for himself, for me, or for the man in the moon as long as he's working and learning. Corrections will come in due time, to teach him the boundaries and limits, and that just because the bad guy is there and he _really* wants*_ to bite him, that's not enough of a reason to do so, because *I* said so. Right now, he's just learning to bark at the helper in order to 'earn' a bite, and that even afterwards, when the sleeve is 'dead,' he _still_ has to watch the helper and bark to keep him away. Yes, he's barking to keep the helper from stealing the prey, but does it really matter as long as he's looking at the helper and barking?


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## Andres Martin

> totally unrealistic scenario set up to make a dog fail. my dog (or any other for that matter) can't see a gun from a realistic distance away.


The cue is not the gun, Tim. I put the gun in there, because in a home break-in scenario, the dog's owner (Kristen) perhaps WOULD send the dog on a person with a gun, while she tries to gain some advantage (get her own gun, now that she has a permit for it!)...quite possibly while others are running in the vicinity. Anyways, the cue is not the gun. The cue sure as heck shouldn't be simply "movement" or "equipment". I think one needs to teach a dog to look for something different to those cues.

If you train for the dog to fail, then you have something to correct, to improve. A dog learns through failure...and subsequent success. I think a dog NEEDS to fail.

 I have not ever given my dog a bite without the presence of a threat. Plus, I started fighting decoys together with my dog from when he was 3-4 months old   . And yes, he saw those decoys as clear and huge threats  . No corrections needed for trying to bite me, because we just partnered in on it from the start. Now, he's pretty self confident, and wants to REALLY submit his opponent. He bites with a reasonably full mouth and quite hard...but I think that's predominantly genetic. I never saw a real need to develop the bite, other than by pulling him off the bite and letting the decoy run away when he was a youngster.

I don't like bite development through prey. I have five beautiful children, who invite their friends to my home, they run around, being youngsters. I would HATE for my dog to consider that more than a tiny bit tempting. Mind you, he has a bunch of prey drive...so it's more a matter of self inhibition. So when he gets cued, he has a pretty clear idea it's a fight, with stress and pain, where he must give it a bunch of effort.

Regarding,


> if you should find chalk marks on your clothing after the exercise, how would you correct that?


, I would never perform that test without knowing what the outcome would be. I wouldn't be able to correct those improper bites fast enough. That is to say, I would teach my dog, even if I got the dog as an (carefully selected) adult, 1) what the bond means to him, and 2) that I am his absolute, unquestioned leader. If the dog puts teeth on me...even in play, he finds out that is not OK. Regarding fighting in close proximity, it would be incremental, easy at the beginning, setting the dog up to fail but being prepared and expecting it, so I can correct...and then we do it again. Increase the level of difficulty as the profficiency gets to where you want.


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## Jerry Lyda

Andres, enjoyed your post.

If you train for the dog to fail, then you have something to correct, to improve. A dog learns through failure...and subsequent success. I think a dog NEEDS to fail. 

Have you ever taken your car to the mechanic to get fixed. But when it's there it never acted as it did with you? He says that he couldn't find the problem. You have to creat the problem in order to fix it. The same holds true with digs. If it isn't broke how in heaven can you fix it?
Thanks,


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## Jerry Lyda

That was suppose to be dogs not digs. Has anyone noticed how close the I is to O. Go figure. It's REAL close when you type with mister pointer.

Case in point, while teaching my male to search the blinds he was suer at it. Then he got smart. He realized that the man was always behind blind number six. ( He learnd to count.  ) Now it's broke and it WAS fixed.

Happy training


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## Jerry Lyda

Darn it. That should have been suPer. Could find the P.


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## Tim Martens

Greg Long said:


> The most important training guidelines for me are.
> 
> 
> 2.Develop the dogs ability to discern threat from a nonthreat from day one.


i guess this is where our fundamental difference lies. i don't' want my dog making that decision. i think that decision is best left up to the human half of the team. i want my dog to bite who i tell him to when i tell him to. no more. no less.


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## Andres Martin

...not mutually exclusive goals...at all.


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## Al Curbow

Tim, so do you mean if someone strikes you, your dog won't bite till it's told? if you go to hit me, my dogs biting you without a command, you must have awesome control on your dog,
AL


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## Tim Martens

Al Curbow said:


> Tim, so do you mean if someone strikes you, your dog won't bite till it's told? if you go to hit me, my dogs biting you without a command, you must have awesome control on your dog,
> AL


we do exercizes where we are patting down animated drunks. they guy sways, flails his arms, yells, etc. the dog must remain in his down during this. only after the command is given is the dog to break for an apprehension. yes, control is always an on going exercize.

the handler protection scenario is more of a conditioned response than the dog "discerning" that the person is a threat. from training the dog knows that when a person is in close proximity to the handler and the person swings his arm, the dog gets a bite. not hard to do and not a good test of a dog "discerning" a threat...


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## Al Curbow

But the dog still makes the decision to bite the guy without a command, right?


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## Tim Martens

Al Curbow said:


> But the dog still makes the decision to bite the guy without a command, right?


i don't consider that a cognitive decision making process. again, it is a conditioned response. did pavlov's dogs "decide" to salivate when the bell rang?


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## Al Curbow

Tim Martens wrote:
"i want my dog to bite who i tell him to when i tell him to. no more. no less."

What if a friend slaps you on the back or something like that, does the dog then make a cognitive decision not to bite? , just trying to understand what you're saying,
AL


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## Tim Martens

Al Curbow said:


> Tim Martens wrote:
> "i want my dog to bite who i tell him to when i tell him to. no more. no less."
> 
> What if a friend slaps you on the back or something like that, does the dog then make a cognitive decision not to bite? , just trying to understand what you're saying,
> AL


the dog doesn't bite because he isn't given the command to do so. the dog only makes the decision to obey the command or the lack of...


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