# Gsd people......would you?



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Would you mix an entirely different breed into your program to 'improve' the genepool? I see a lot of malis that have had several other breeds in their older generations. Recently i checked Chris Race's dog's pedigree and i saw a black and tan dog, although the dog's parents were to my surprise fawn in color i guess there's a bit of GSD blood in it.
Nowadays it seems that many sport/police folks prefer the mali cos it appears faster, more agile,etc. I still prefer the GSD though. I really don't know if the not too recent switch to dutchies/malis is solely based on them being stronger police type dogs. The only Gsds i've seen(few) were high drive dogs but i still wonder if truly the malinois has more individuals that are police k9 type, would you consider say breeding your stud to a good dutch line mali?


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## Christopher Jones

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Would you mix an entirely different breed into your program to 'improve' the genepool? I see a lot of malis that have had several other breeds in their older generations. Recently i checked Chris Race's dog's pedigree and i saw a black and tan dog, although the dog's parents were to my surprise fawn in color i guess there's a bit of GSD blood in it.


The black and tan does not come from GSD.


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## Ben Haley

Really??? Where does it come from then ;-)


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## Christopher Jones

Tasmainian Devil.​


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## Jonathon Howard

Christopher Jones said:


> Tasmainian Devil.​


Nah the tasmanian devil is black and white. I think you mean Tasmanian tiger.


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## Melissa Thom

Jonathon Howard said:


> Nah the tasmanian devil is black and white. I think you mean Tasmanian tiger.


I can see that. 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Thylacine_footage_compilation.ogv


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Jones said:


> Tasmainian Devil.​


 
Are you sure? :lol:

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/37827/Karlche-vom-tasmanischen-Teufel


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## Molly Graf

No, I would never consider doing that. If someone wants a Mali-like GSD then get a Mali. If somone wants a GSD-like Mali then get a GSD, many working-line GSDs are smaller and more agile, higher drive and some can even be "crazy" like a Mal - no need to mix the breeds together IMO


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## Gerald Guay

I agree with Molly. 

There's enough choice (gene pool) out there in GSD's to suit everyones tastes.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Didn't Helmet Raiser suggest this not to long ago? I believe it was shot down by the GSD club, but I saw discussions on it on various forums.


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## Thomas Barriano

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Didn't Helmet Raiser suggest this not to long ago? I believe it was shot down by the GSD club, but I saw discussions on it on various forums.


Raiser was not only shot down. He was thrown out of the SV
and wound up in court and eventually established the rival
RSV2000 organization. Getting any parent breed club to open
their stud books is an uphill battle.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Christopher Jones said:


> The black and tan does not come from GSD.


Except that was a joke, please educate me, i really thought it was from the GSD.:-o


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## Jerry Lyda

How mant Shepinois do you think are working in PDs today? I know there are some very good ones working but how many I don't know but I bet it's more than a lot of Mali people will admit. The
ones I know of are bigger bone ( sometimes ) , sable to Mali colored. Ball crazy and will hit you like a freight train.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Molly Graf said:


> No, I would never consider doing that. If someone wants a Mali-like GSD then get a Mali. If somone wants a GSD-like Mali then get a GSD, many working-line GSDs are smaller and more agile, higher drive and some can even be "crazy" like a Mal - no need to mix the breeds together IMO


Molly,
This makes a lot of sense. I've talked to a lot of GSD breeders too and they echoed your thoughts but my concern has always been why does it seem like the mali is replacing the GSD in everything? I am biased and will always be a GSD guy but i'd love to see the GSD remain a prominent feature in the world of working dogs especially Patrol work.
I mail some brokers and ask them, why do you have mostly malis for sale and they are like, well its hard to see good GSDs these days. The only working GSD i have 'handled' was handler aggressive, extreme everything. 
I like to see malis work too but GSDs are my favourite.:smile:


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## Jerry Lyda

Money- GSD cost more.


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## Harry Keely

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Molly,
> 
> I mail some brokers and ask them, why do you have mostly malis for sale and they are like, well its hard to see good GSDs these days.
> 
> 
> I think the question of the GSD vs Mali has already been answered fro ya:-\"


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## Denise Gatlin

I've got two DS/Mal x GSD crosses. Size is perfect, slightly heavier bone than the DS but just as agile but with more strength. Stable work ethics. Drives consistent with the DS/Mal. I call them my Gertchs. :-k


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## Harry Keely

Jerry Lyda said:


> Money- GSD cost more.


I hope it stays like that for us mali / ds folks, and let GSD people continued to get jacked for something thats not worth much when it compares to other breeds when its time to work, I have had a few GSD, one I think was a cross, and they are almost extinct to find that compare to a mali /ds, only GSD I would take now would have to be a cross or even consider maybe taking.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Harry Keely said:


> Oluwatobi Odunuga said:
> 
> 
> 
> Molly,
> 
> I mail some brokers and ask them, why do you have mostly malis for sale and they are like, well its hard to see good GSDs these days.
> 
> 
> I think the question of the GSD vs Mali has already been answered fro ya:-\"
> 
> 
> 
> Harry,
> i don't get what you mean.
Click to expand...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Harry Keely said:


> I hope it stays like that for us mali / ds folks, and let GSD people continued to get jacked for something thats not worth much when it compares to other breeds when its time to work, I have had a few GSD, one I think was a cross, and they are almost extinct to find that compare to a mali /ds, only GSD I would take now would have to be a cross or even consider maybe taking.


I think this an exaggerated statement, if good GSDs were that hard to find, then all K9units would be using only malis/dutchies:wink: 
I see little difference between KNPV trained malis and GSDs.
Just saying.....


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## Molly Graf

I think there are MANY MANY Mali breeders who are crossing into GSD - most of the time it's quite obvious in the resulting "Malis" that are black/tan, or sable, larger boned or GSD tail-set, structure or etc.

I wonder too - where did the black/tan Malinois come from if not resulting from a GSD crossed in?


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## Sandra King

Molly Graf said:


> No, I would never consider doing that. If someone wants a Mali-like GSD then get a Mali. If somone wants a GSD-like Mali then get a GSD, many working-line GSDs are smaller and more agile, higher drive and some can even be "crazy" like a Mal - no need to mix the breeds together IMO


Agreed!


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## susan tuck

I used to have a link to a translation of Raiser's speech that got him in so much hot water, but I can't find it any more.

Here is a link to a translation of an article he wrote that was published in Feb 2003 (SV)

http://www.rhosyngsd.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=7

Here is a link to a 2/14/04 Los Angeles Times newspaper article about Raiser:

http://www.gsdcgt.com/la_times_article.htm

I do think the SV is all about the show dog, and I get it, that's where the money is, and I have friends who have and enjoy high lines, but for myself, I do not like the high lines, so much so that to me, the idea of crossing show lines into working lines is a much worse polutant than the idea of crossing mals into working lines. 

I agree that there are GSDs with plenty of drive, you have to look to find them, but they are there. The bigger issues I think, are the health issues. Back problems, hip problems, shoulder problems, elbow problems, our breed is plagued with problems. Perhaps the careful out crossing (as is being done with dalmations for example), is something that should be considered.

Anyway, I think that what Raiser suggested was that something drastic needed to be done to save the breed, I don't think he actually advocated changing the SV to immediately add Malinois willy nilly to the breed pool, but that people needed to think outside of the box if they want to improve the health and performance of the breed.


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## Bob Scott

"Susan said;
Back problems, hip problems, shoulder problems, elbow problems, our breed is plagued with problems. Perhaps the careful out crossing (as is being done with dalmations for example), is something that should be considered."

Absolutely!
I believe many,if not most, breeds would benefit from this.
The KNVP people do it, the true working terrier people do it. 
The "elite" show people are more worried about loosing that cookie cutter "look" then they are about the health issues. Not all, don't hang me!:lol:
I was in the dog show world for 10-12 yrs. Get 3-4-5 good yrs out of a show dog's career and who gives a crap about it's life span.
One of my own Kerry Blues was a nice show winner. Came from top, top show lines. After her third bout with cancer at 8yrs old I found out one of the "greats" in her background was a cancer producing machine.


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## chris race

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Would you mix an entirely different breed into your program to 'improve' the genepool? I see a lot of malis that have had several other breeds in their older generations. Recently i checked Chris Race's dog's pedigree and i saw a black and tan dog, although the dog's parents were to my surprise fawn in color i guess there's a bit of GSD blood in it.
> Nowadays it seems that many sport/police folks prefer the mali cos it appears faster, more agile,etc. I still prefer the GSD though. I really don't know if the not too recent switch to dutchies/malis is solely based on them being stronger police type dogs. The only Gsds i've seen(few) were high drive dogs but i still wonder if truly the malinois has more individuals that are police k9 type, would you consider say breeding your stud to a good dutch line mali?


 Many people say that he has black and tan in there muct be GSD in there. I will assure you there is no Gsd In there.

Chris


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## Nancy Jocoy

What I would not want to loose is that which makes a GSD different than a Mali or Dutch. If you expand the gene pool I would think you still need to consider the original farm/herding/ guarding/molosser breeds that were also a part of the mix to keep the balance along with the working ability.


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## Jim Nash

I know I saw more and more GSD/Mal and even more GSD/DS crosses coming through our school every year before I left . I recently saw 2 young GSD/DS dogs that we trained for a Wisc. Department at a demo with about 40 other K9s around . They look just like DSs and were going nuts but I heard they were very good dogs and got great certification scores .


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## Joby Becker

Some people are crossing the dogs, and they are being used as real "working dogs".

You just don't see them as often, and no bigtime breeder of GSD is going to do that, it is the same thing as any off the other breeds. The breed clubs will never go for it, so for those who want papers for the dogs, it is not gonna happen. It would be grounds to get thrown out of the Officiality of the breed.

Someone who wants a dog to do PSD work, or Miltary work, most likely does not care what the dog has behind it as long as it can work. Most who wants to do sport work, or breed, want and need papers, and the purity is important to them...


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## Kadi Thingvall

Molly Graf said:


> I wonder too - where did the black/tan Malinois come from if not resulting from a GSD crossed in?


I haven't looked at the specific dog/pedigree in question but the black and tan (GSDish, not Rottish) color can occur in Malinois simply from an excess of overlay. It's more obvious in the Tervuren because of their longer hair, and because heavy overlay is just more common.








But this same overlay pattern exists in the Malinois, it's just that generally maybe 1 out of 10 hairs will be black tipped, so it's not as obvious. But the pattern can be seen if you look closely on dogs with overlay. When you see a Malinois with heavier overlay, 1/2 the hairs are black tipped, or even more, they take on a GSDish coloration. And if the dog carries the genetics for heavy blackening on the legs, they can be really dark.

Not saying there isn't GSD in some of the KNPV dogs, but color alone can't be used to determine this.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Competition drives people. If a registry controls the competition and requires a pedigree, then people are out for the pedigrees. Its also money. How many people can you involve in working dogs when the price is $1,000-$2,500 along with the cost of training and club dues? The pedigree game has become more of a money game. If you really want to just support working dogs, opt out of the registry scheme. I'm still not sure how it works with FCI but people tell me they can compete but the dog has to be listed as a mixed breed and they don't like that. Who cares???? If the FCI won't let you in, establish another working venue that is'nt based on pedigree. As for GSD and crossing, I think if you tossed out the SV crap health certification system and the baby and bathwater theory, you could improve the health. Contrary to popular belief, there are American showline breeders that have done this. Next is the breeding to the next hot import stud of the moment instead of establishing a line. If you really wanna improve the GSD, you'd have to say screw the SV system for sure. As for crossing, I think that is premature in working line GSDs. I think there ought to be more discussion of pedigrees and producers and what traits they produce without all the pussyfooting around. Are Mals and DS health problem free? I doubt it. How do you know until a certain percentage are tested.

There's a reason there are different breeds--different traits. Cross with a mali for what--faster, more agile, how hard he hits, yada, yada, for what--the look of it in sport. What do the cops need on the street? Men have a fascination with big. I see GSDs described as over 100 pounds at less than a year old. Yep, that's gonna be a clunker. 24-26 inches and 60-85 lbs should be all you want in size in a GSD for work. I don't want to really see Mals or Dutchies in GSD suits. But if there was a program similar to what the guy did in Dals or Debbie Skinner talked about with her Beaucerons that infused something else and got back to the original type, I wouldn't slide it down the table. 


T


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## Joby Becker

chris race said:


> Many people say that he has black and tan in there muct be GSD in there. I will assure you there is no Gsd In there.
> 
> Chris


Really??? Would you bet any money on that? 
How about a pup? or a stud fee?


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## chris race

Joby Becker said:


> Really??? Would you bet any money on that?
> How about a pup? or a stud fee?


 On my 2 studs?? You bet!![-X


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## will fernandez

Buy a T'Heuske line GSD for some mali blood


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## Joby Becker

chris race said:


> On my 2 studs?? You bet!![-X


so a pup then? or a stud fee?


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## Debbie Skinner

Black GSD? Black Mal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEiXc2ZzTwc&feature=player_embedded

Nice dog regardless.


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## chris race

Joby Becker said:


> so a pup then? or a stud fee?


LOL, why do I get the feeling u have something up your sleeve??:lol:


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## Debbie Skinner




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## Joby Becker

chris race said:


> LOL, why do I get the feeling u have something up your sleeve??:lol:


its a bet then...your choice...

look on the bottom half... There is a dog named Rambo (2363) in there, click on him..

He goes back to Lion Heuvelmans (165)

I will leave the payment up to you, it will give me a good idea on your ethics LOL


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## will fernandez

Yes I would like to wager for a pup. Joby is on
the money. also brn 1721


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## Joby Becker

cha-cha-chinge!!! I AM STOKED!!!


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## chris race

Joby Becker said:


> its a bet then...your choice...
> 
> look on the bottom half... There is a dog named Rambo (2363) in there, click on him..
> 
> He goes back to Lion Heuvelmans (165)
> 
> I will leave the payment up to you, it will give me a good idea on your ethics LOL


LOL!! How far back is that?? No photo or anything? might as well be unknown. Either way you got me , good job. :roll:


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## Joby Becker

chris race said:


> LOL!! How far back is that?? No photo or anything? might as well be unknown. Either way you got me , good job. :roll:


It would be unknown if it wasn't clearly right there in print.


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## chris race

Joby Becker said:


> It would be unknown if it wasn't clearly right there in print.


 I said u got me](*,)


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## Joby Becker

who knows how many of these dogs go back to what...exactly...the guys that bred them...many of the peds end in UNKNOWN, some a lot closer than others.. and you see a ton of mix malinios that just end there...

there are a few GSD X listed...and probably a lot more that aren't.


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## chris race

Joby Becker said:


> who knows how many of these dogs go back to what...exactly...the guys that bred them...many of the peds end in UNKNOWN, some a lot closer than others.. and you see a ton of mix malinios that just end there...
> 
> there are a few GSD X listed...and probably a lot more that aren't.


 Agreed


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## Joby Becker

Double or nothing on Castor???


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## susan tuck

Antverpa. Nuff said?


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## Adam Rawlings

I've posted this link before, here it is again for those of you who haven't seen it.

http://www.policedogsk9.sk/index.php?idp=obedie


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## Kelly Johnson

I seen this picture a long time ago but couldnt find any info on this dog. Looks like a GSD/DS X. Anyone ever seen this dog before?


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## Kelly Johnson

Kelly Johnson said:


> I seen this picture a long time ago but couldnt find any info on this dog. Looks like a GSD/DS X. Anyone ever seen this dog before?
> 
> View attachment 2041


 
Nevermind I found him :smile:

http://www.fonskeshome.nl/new/index.php


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## Joby Becker

Kelly Johnson said:


> Nevermind I found him :smile:
> 
> http://www.fonskeshome.nl/new/index.php


He also goes back to Lion Heuvelmans..


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## Terrasita Cuffie

So there has to be a reason to cross a mal or DS to a GSD--why?


Terrasita


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## Harry Keely

Andor BRN 759 is a black mali but has GSD and Groendale ( sorry I know spelt wrong ), so the black comes would be my bet from groendale and maybe a GSD or two.

Not knocking GSD, but truth is that they are to hard to come by in my opinion.

Lay it out there for those who dont know, one of the more past pronounced Mali ( black ) was a dog name Remco Linders who is the son of Andor, Remco BRN is 1220, hes got groendale, GSD, Mali x just in the first 4 generations.


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## Jerry Lyda

I know where one is just like this except she's a she.

I seen this picture a long time ago but couldnt find any info on this dog. Looks like a GSD/DS X. Anyone ever seen this dog before?

fonske-1-.jpg.jpg Views: 6 Size: 37.0 KB ID: 2041


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## Christopher Jones

There are black and tan Pedigreed Malis, Bi-colour Pedigreed Malis and there are fawn Pedigreed GSD's. 
Go back far enough and you will see crosses in all of them. Where did the Brindle in the original GSD come from? 
But the Black/Tan colour in Jochies lines is not from GSD.


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## Doug Zaga

Christopher Jones said:


> But the Black/Tan colour in Jochies lines is not from GSD.


Hi Chris...not specifically Jochie ...but where does the color come from?


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## Sandra King

Harry Keely said:


> Andor BRN 759 is a black mali but has GSD and Groendale ( sorry I know spelt wrong ), so the black comes would be my bet from groendale and maybe a GSD or two.
> 
> Not knocking GSD, but truth is that they are to hard to come by in my opinion.
> 
> Lay it out there for those who dont know, one of the more past pronounced Mali ( black ) was a dog name Remco Linders who is the son of Andor, Remco BRN is 1220, hes got groendale, GSD, Mali x just in the first 4 generations.


Not true at all. I know where to go to get a quality wise, good GSD that I can use pretty much for anything I want to do. A Jack of all Trades. For me it'd be much harder to come by a good DS or Malinois because I don't really know the two breeds, nothing about the good or bad lines and all I do know, I know from luring in the topics and reading stuff. 

Anyhow, it's really not that hard to come by good GSD's when you know your breeders in the motherland. Over here, I'd have a much harder times and would probably give a call to Mike Conley.


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## susan tuck

Sandra King said:


> Not true at all. I know where to go to get a quality wise, good GSD that I can use pretty much for anything I want to do. A Jack of all Trades. For me it'd be much harder to come by a good DS or Malinois because I don't really know the two breeds, nothing about the good or bad lines and all I do know, I know from luring in the topics and reading stuff.
> 
> Anyhow, it's really not that hard to come by good GSD's when you know your breeders in the motherland. Over here, I'd have a much harder times and would probably give a call to Mike Conley.


Sandra forget it, don't bother, Harry thinks the breed is a lost cause, in fact according to Harry he watched the WUSV trial when it was here in the states in '08 and not one of the GSDs competing in the event was even worth feeding!!!!!!


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## Sandra King

susan tuck said:


> Sandra forget it, don't bother, Harry thinks the breed is a lost cause, in fact according to Harry he watched the WUSV trial when it was here in the states in '08 and not one of the GSDs competing in the event was even worth feeding!!!!!!


That couldn't be further away from the truth... sheeesh... it'd be like saying that all dutch shepherds are nerve bags.. the German Shepherd, most definitely, is not a lost cause and a shepherd shouldn't be Mal like, nor should a Mal be Shepherd like. It's two different breeds with it's own traits and personally, I'd take a Shepherd anytime over any Mal and Dutchie.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

There are people who think a GSD doesn't compare to a Mal or Dutchie. The short answer is--its not supposed to. Like you said different breeds, different traits. So then you look at the competition venues and ask is what they are testing for not within the reach of the GSD? The areas usually discussed are speed, full bite, hard bite, fight, nerves, and agility. If you are at national level competitions where are the GSDs losing points that the Mal or Dutchie is gonna be a step ahead? If you are a vendor, I guess its all about profit---what's easiest and cheapest to get that you can sell to an agency for a profit. It sounds like you have a better profit margin in Mals, Dutchies and quite frankly any mix. You may also have a lot better chance of coming out on top in terms of health with the Mal or Dutchie. Mike Suttle's is the first website I've seen with OFA. So from a LE or military standpoint and sheer business, you'd be better off peddling the Mal or the Dutchie unless you have a request for the benign looking lab or someone specifically likes GSDs. So in sport, where is the GSD losing the points on the field that you won't lose with the Mal or Dutchie that has nothing to do with training?


T


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## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There are people who think a GSD doesn't compare to a Mal or Dutchie. The short answer is--its not supposed to. Like you said different breeds, different traits. So then you look at the competition venues and ask is what they are testing for not within the reach of the GSD? The areas usually discussed are speed, full bite, hard bite, fight, nerves, and agility. If you are at national level competitions where are the GSDs losing points that the Mal or Dutchie is gonna be a step ahead? If you are a vendor, I guess its all about profit---what's easiest and cheapest to get that you can sell to an agency for a profit. It sounds like you have a better profit margin in Mals, Dutchies and quite frankly any mix. You may also have a lot better chance of coming out on top in terms of health with the Mal or Dutchie. Mike Suttle's is the first website I've seen with OFA. So from a LE or military standpoint and sheer business, you'd be better off peddling the Mal or the Dutchie unless you have a request for the benign looking lab or someone specifically likes GSDs. So in sport, where is the GSD losing the points on the field that you won't lose with the Mal or Dutchie that has nothing to do with training?
> 
> T


I completely disagree. Working line GSDs, Dutchies and Malinois, all 3 breeds were developed from herding stock, all 3 were developed for use primarily as police and military service dogs, in their various regions. Stephanitz himself recognized in the very early days when he was developing the breed that Germany was becoming much more mechanized and less rural, and that the primary function of the breed was as a police/military dog. Take a look at the dogs he developed, they look very similar to Malinois, Dutchies and Working Line GSDS, and bear very little resemblance to the High Lines from the 60s forward. We have popularity, greed and the Martin Brothers to thank for what the breed has become.

Within the working lines, we have major health issues in the breed. We have dogs that even when healthy at 3 and 4 are pretty much done by age 7. That's a problem. Outcrossing is worth considering. Something needs to be figured out. No working line GSD person is looking for a Mali in GSD clothes (though in reality the breeds should not be that dissimilar, both have the same purpose). What we are looking for are high drive HEALTHY GSDs. I liked the drives of my Tiekerhook dog, but he had bad hips, bad elbows, bad shoulder and back. Is it too much to ask for a healthy high drive GSD? I sure hope not. I haven't given up.......yet.


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## Jerry Lyda

Don't give up Susan, I'm with you girl. Sandra you're spot on.


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## Sandra King

> Within the working lines, we have major health issues in the breed.* We have dogs that even when healthy at 3 and 4 are pretty much done by age 7. *That's a problem. Outcrossing is worth considering. Something needs to be figured out. No working line GSD person is looking for a Mali in GSD clothes (though in reality the breeds should not be that dissimilar, both have the same purpose). What we are looking for are high drive HEALTHY GSDs. I liked the drives of my Tiekerhook dog, but he had bad hips, bad elbows, bad shoulder and back. Is it too much to ask for a healthy high drive GSD? I sure hope not. I haven't given up.......yet.


I believe that the main cause is that people burn their dogs out without giving them a chance of mature, not ony physically but mentally. They are a tool and have to function at all cost. Like you said, greed and money is one reason why people burn out their dogs, not even realizing what they do to them. Afterall they are living beeings and not machines. Like us, their body needs to be maintained and taken care off. 

Take an athlete, if he doesn't take care of his body, they are done by the time they are 30-40 years old because they are putting way too much strain onto their body. Take a professional classical dressage trainer that has to ride up to ten-fifteen horses a day. Their body is taking a toll. 
My sister had a herniated disc when she was only 23 years old. 23 years of age and a herniated disc from pushing her body too hard, riding horse after horse, hour after hour. 
Frostbites in the wintertime because if she wants to be successful she's got to ride, no matter what the weather condition are like. 

And as much as we push ourselves, we push the dogs. We expect so much of dogs, sometimes, it's out of this world. After all they are animals and not some wonder-magical-beasts that won't get hurt or can't get scared. They are living beeings and we play a major role why they are done by the time they are 7 years old. 

The bitches i actually feel most sorry for. Litter after Litter after Litter... throughout their entire life. Once they reached "the expiration date" they are dumped. 

I can understand from the business point of view, you can't keep every dog but that bitch has been a money machine for the longest time and just because she's gotten old, she's getting dumped like a piece of garbage that's taking up the space and money.


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## Harry Keely

Sandra King said:


> Not true at all. I know where to go to get a quality wise, good GSD that I can use pretty much for anything I want to do. A Jack of all Trades. For me it'd be much harder to come by a good DS or Malinois because I don't really know the two breeds, nothing about the good or bad lines and all I do know, I know from luring in the topics and reading stuff.
> 
> Anyhow, it's really not that hard to come by good GSD's when you know your breeders in the motherland. Over here, I'd have a much harder times and would probably give a call to Mike Conley.


You hit the nail on the head Sandra, and said exactly what I am referring to ___ qoute : Over here, I'd have a much harder times___ I am sure its much easier cross seas in germany, holland, slovak and czech, etc......... that I dont disagree with at all. But honestly when I am traveling cross seas I am not looking for a GSD:wink:, the GSD breed means nothing to me anymore with the few exceptions I have seen over the years that YES I would gladly own.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

chris race said:


> Many people say that he has black and tan in there muct be GSD in there. I will assure you there is no Gsd In there.
> 
> Chris


This is the dog i was talking about.

http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/

BRN: 3737

The dog's name is MAX.


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## Christopher Jones

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> This is the dog i was talking about.
> 
> http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/
> 
> BRN: 3737
> 
> The dog's name is MAX.


Yeah Max colour is not comming from GSD's.


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## Joby Becker

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> This is the dog i was talking about.
> 
> http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/
> 
> BRN: 3737
> 
> The dog's name is MAX.


Look at the dog in the bottom half... pedigree names Anouska...BRN 86
This dog also goes back to Lion...3 generations back who was a Mix with GSD in him. 

so does Remco, and Andor ( the 2 dogs that Harry Mentioned)

Arno Kleine Schaars (229) has a GSD 5 generations back, through Carla on the bottom half, and he looks like a fawn GSD to me. 

Some of this stuff HAS to come from GSD used further back, I dont care what anyone says....

I can't say where the color comes from or certain types..but it looks like a few dogs with GSD in the ped have "GSD like" coloring, and others have more GSD type

I am no genetic expert, but in other types of dogs that is called "throwback" markings or phenotypes..and they do happen when you mix dogs...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> I completely disagree. Working line GSDs, Dutchies and Malinois, all 3 breeds were developed from herding stock, all 3 were developed for use primarily as police and military service dogs, in their various regions. Stephanitz himself recognized in the very early days when he was developing the breed that Germany was becoming much more mechanized and less rural, and that the primary function of the breed was as a police/military dog. Take a look at the dogs he developed, they look very similar to Malinois, Dutchies and Working Line GSDS, and bear very little resemblance to the High Lines from the 60s forward. We have popularity, greed and the Martin Brothers to thank for what the breed has become.
> 
> Within the working lines, we have major health issues in the breed. We have dogs that even when healthy at 3 and 4 are pretty much done by age 7. That's a problem. Outcrossing is worth considering. Something needs to be figured out. No working line GSD person is looking for a Mali in GSD clothes (though in reality the breeds should not be that dissimilar, both have the same purpose). What we are looking for are high drive HEALTHY GSDs. I liked the drives of my Tiekerhook dog, but he had bad hips, bad elbows, bad shoulder and back. Is it too much to ask for a healthy high drive GSD? I sure hope not. I haven't given up.......yet.


Reading von Stephanitz, he did not say the primary job for the GSD is with police/military. He declared the "noblest occupation" for the GSD is with the flocks---and sheep. He marketed the dog for other uses. Lose the herding function and you lose the balance and analysis. I thought it interesting that RSV 2000 included herding as work. I guess you have to put my two post together. The SV has completely mucked up the breed on health and type. I also agree about the working lines and health--hence what I said about baby and bath water and inclusive with that is relying upon SV hip and elbow certifications. How many dogs that are imported are x-rayed and the information disclosed? We've known for how long that x-raying at 1 year will let dysplasia slip through? Yet there is still reliance on it. How many working line breeders are OFAing dogs hips/elbows? There's a reason I don't have one. $1000-$2000+++ for a huge gamble on health. Dutchies and Malis are getting bigger and bigger. I don't think any male GSD should be over 85 lbs. If you want to see the difference between a Mal and a GSD, take them to livestock. GSDs were not supposed to have trigger reactive prey. Thats not the dog described in von Stephanitz's vision. Hardness and trainability as they saw police work then--sure. Back then, Schutzhund looked more like ringsport. Herding dogs had to pass a protection phase. The temperament of a higher drive mal and a higher drive GSD are not the same. Can you imagine the Mal "meltdown" as they describe them in a GSD?

I agree something has to be done as I sit here GSDless. But before you outcross, how about toss out the SV concept of health certification and stop breeding dysplastic dogs. How about stop breeding without knowing whether the dog is dysplastic or not. It would take taking the money part out of it and stop breeding to the hot stud of the moment and really developing a line of dogs. Otherwise how many dutchie or malis would it take to rid a GSD pedigree of dysplasia? Its polygenic and we don't have DNA. Who says mals and dutchies don't bring their own dysplasia issues. Unless you are dealing with DNA recessives that you can manipulate, how will outcrossing a dog here or a dog there solve the problem? As we stand now if you started eliminating from breeding dogs that couldn't OFA, would the working line GSD pool be obliterated? 

I'm always interested in what the LE folks have to say about what they would live to see in a dog for the street. For some reason I don't think its the extremes that are so tossed about in the sport world. Suttle touched upon this some awhile back and I think its a legitimate consideration. It would be interesting to hear from the LE guys and especially those who have worked both

I was talking with the head of a dog training school and asked did they have a GSD source for the students. His comment was, not really. They are hard to come by because students can't afford them and then there is the health issue. From his perspective, its not that the GSD can't do the work. They're costly and then there's that health thing. 

Its interesting to read all the latest dutchie threads regarding stud dogs/lines and certain traits. I haven't seen that discussion on GSDs yet and as my husband says, there a dime a dozen.


T


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## Christopher Jones

Joby Becker said:


> Look at the dog in the bottom half... pedigree names Anouska...BRN 86
> This dog also goes back to Lion...3 generations back who was a Mix with GSD in him.


There are mistakes in the pedigrees on bloedlijnen
Lion was born in the 1960's and looks like a Mali. They dont know who his parents are, so I would not put any money on exactly how much GSD may or may not be in him. And I dont know anyone who knew the parents of Lion, since that was nearly 50 years ago.


Joby Becker said:


> so does Remco, and Andor ( the 2 dogs that Harry Mentioned)


Yep, Remco goes back close on GSD, and thats why I dont have any Remco blood. Having said that Remco was a good dog.



Joby Becker said:


> Arno Kleine Schaars (229) has a GSD 5 generations back, through Carla on the bottom half, and he looks like a fawn GSD to me. )


Again, dont lay money on how accurate the bloedlijnen website is over a little known female mali from the 1960's. 
You say Arno looks like a GSD? Sure doesnt to me. 


Joby Becker said:


> Some of this stuff HAS to come from GSD used further back, I dont care what anyone says....
> 
> I can't say where the color comes from or certain types..but it looks like a few dogs with GSD in the ped have "GSD like" coloring, and others have more GSD type
> 
> I am no genetic expert, but in other types of dogs that is called "throwback" markings or phenotypes..and they do happen when you mix dogs...


If you go back far enough you are going to see crosses between the Herder breeds of Western Europe.
Its well known the Dutch Shepherd Dog club of Holland offically crossed out to the GSD as they did to the Malinois.
I have little doubt that somewhere in the history of my own dogs there is going to be a GSD or two, but they are so far removed its of no concern.

But Max's colour is not due to a GSD that may or may not be in his pedigree from the 1960's.


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Jones said:


> There are mistakes in the pedigrees on bloedlijnen
> Lion was born in the 1960's and looks like a Mali. They dont know who his parents are, so I would not put any money on exactly how much GSD may or may not be in him. And I dont know anyone who knew the parents of Lion, since that was nearly 50 years ago.
> 
> Yep, Remco goes back close on GSD, and thats why I dont have any Remco blood. Having said that Remco was a good dog.
> 
> 
> Again, dont lay money on how accurate the bloedlijnen website is over a little known female mali from the 1960's.
> You say Arno looks like a GSD? Sure doesnt to me.
> 
> 
> If you go back far enough you are going to see crosses between the Herder breeds of Western Europe.
> Its well known the Dutch Shepherd Dog club of Holland offically crossed out to the GSD as they did to the Malinois.
> I have little doubt that somewhere in the history of my own dogs there is going to be a GSD or two, but they are so far removed its of no concern.
> 
> But Max's colour is not due to a GSD that may or may not be in his pedigree from the 1960's.


Gotcha...like I said I dont know where any of it comes from, but it has to come from somewhere...


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Sandra King said:


> Not true at all. I know where to go to get a quality wise, good GSD that I can use pretty much for anything I want to do. A Jack of all Trades. For me it'd be much harder to come by a good DS or Malinois because I don't really know the two breeds, nothing about the good or bad lines and all I do know, I know from luring in the topics and reading stuff.
> 
> Anyhow, it's really not that hard to come by good GSD's when you know your breeders in the motherland. Over here, I'd have a much harder times and would probably give a call to Mike Conley.


That is true. I bought both of my GSDs in Germany and I honestly wouldn't hesitate to do so again. HD is not a problem, elbows ok, spinal X-rays can be done.

They are both good sport dogs, healthy, energetic. The older one is extremely watchful of the homestead but is more neutral when out. Not exactly overjoyed by strangers as the younger one is but not a problem. The younger one is similar to a Malinois in temperament but like Terrasita Cunliffe once said, a complete Trade Union member. The older is far more willing but never as accurate.

It's always difficult for us in Europe when the negative statements arise. Admittedly, sportwise, the GSD cannot rise above the Malinois but when I see the long, lithe body of the GSD in full gallop, I wouldn't want anything else. Maybe a dumb reason, I know but it suits me.


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## susan tuck

OFA is not the answer. Terrisita Almost all working line breeders in the USA who are serious about performance dogs are OFAing their stock, both hips and elbows, because that's what people who want dogs that can compete demand. They pretty much all guarantee offspring's hips, too. That's not the problem. It's not just hips and elbows, it's BACKS, it's SHOULDERS, it's BLOAT, etc... It's the overall piss poor health of our breed. OFA is not going to solve the problem, they don't even publish negative results without permission. 

According to a few cops that I have talked to the problem with GSDs is the cost, the difficulty in finding the good ones, the slow rate of maturity, the health issues resulting in early retirement.

As far as "Mal meltdowns", you need to educate me, because I'm not even sure what you're talking about. If you're talking about temper tantrums, young GSDs have them too. Also you complain that we want too much prey drive but say 'back then schutzhund looked more like ringsport". How do you justify such contradicting statements? As far as Malis and herding work, I would ask Kadie what she sees since she has done that kind of work with her Malinois dogs.


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## susan tuck

I believe if you look at the history of the GSD, the Malinois and the Dutchie, you will see that it's very similar. All 3 breeds were developed at around the same time, and for the same general purposes. All 3 were developed from herding stock, originally for that purpose, but very shortly that purpose changed to police/military work. The differences were primarily cosmetic, they were not developed for different purposes. They were only developed in different countries and the Belgians and the Dutch, for whatever reason, had the presence of mind not to allow their respective breeds to get messed up and ruined up by popularity and the show ring. 

Same thing with the English, Irish and Gordon setter. Different breeds same purpose, different regions. Hard to find a good Irish anymore. Popularity, greed, breeding for show ring extremes and fads screwed them up too.

Breeding for working extremes? Seriously? I have known extreme GSDs and extreme Mali's. They are not the dog for the average person, but guess what? Who ever said GSDs, Malinois or Dutchies belong in the average home? Oh that's right, the High Line folk would love to see a GSD in every home because that's BANK, so hell yeah, dumb them down, right? Make them nothing but pretty lawn ornaments, docile enough for every Tom, Dick and Harry that wants one. Sickening.


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## susan tuck

And by the way, those high drive dogs are plenty safe and reliable, providing they are worked properly. They are NOT the dog for every man, they aren't SUPPOSED to be. Not every person deserves one. 

The breed needs it's health issues fixed and OFA isn't the answer. You want to know about Malinios health? Look at the numbers! The dogs work earlier in their life and work longer. Those are health issues not breed issues.

I'm not saying that adding Malinois is the answer, but it surely is something to consider, we have got to look outside of the box because what we are doing now isn't cutting it. I just love how when faced with the issues, so many GSD people what to pop their heads into the sand and act like there really is no problem at all. Give me a break! The Malinois isn't supposed to be a superior working dog, they should be equal in the work and hardy healthy dogs. As long as GSD people are content to pretend there is nothing wrong the breed will continue to fall down hill. Maybe that in itself will be the answer.

THE ****ING EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!!!!!


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## Gillian Schuler

Hi Susan

I tried to find an article written by Ursula or Werner Zabel from RSV about the reason why the Malinois in sport outdo the GSDs. Can't find it at the moment but can remember one of the crucial points. This was that within the SV Germany, SC Switzerland, etc. the standard of training is often sadly lacking compared with that of the Malinois Clubs. I think a lot of GSD owners are working their dogs as they used to 30 years ago.

I noticed the change in one of the GSD Clubs I attend. There are 50-50 Malis and GSDs. The methods applied to the Malinois worked well for the GSD.

It would be unfair of me to remark on the Protection - when I hear the Malinois squeaking at B&H - I just have to laugh but the rest of the protection work is often very high - however not higher than the GSD in all cases.

When it comes to the UO, the Malinois handler has more often than not the far better training - h/she seems to understand how to motivate and work the dog better. 

As for health, the working line GSD breed compared with the Malinois doesn't have to be ashamed. The Malinois has problems like all other breeds.

What would people wish to alter in the GSD by introducing the Malinois? Admittedly bringing in another breed can be effective more quickly than trying to alter something physical such as short-nose, out of breath problems. I learnt this from Heinrich Binder at the University Veterinary Clinic in Zürich.

I am not a breeder but I have also heard that the heriditary rate of mental characteristics is very low, i.e. just breeding one "high-drive" dog to another will not produce the hoped for results and not ensure "high-drive" pups, whatever the breeder states about "high-drive" pups expected.

The GSD has a show line example that brings the money in and when talking GSDs on here we would really do well to ignore this.

One has to face facts: the Malinois in sport has its nose in front.

It would be interesting to know how both breeds fare in real life, i.e. as Police, Military, Security etc. and what comparisons can be made.

I like both breeds and could live with both but my beats stronger for the GSD.


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## susan tuck

I love working line German Shepherd Dogs. There's just something about them, the relationship I have with my dogs, they are the right dog for me. I think the lines have plenty of drive. It breaks my heart when I see so many that are physically falling apart. I see lots of GSDs with every bit of drive as Malinois, smaller size too, that can barely clear a metre jump at 5 years.

Gillian I think you are on to something about the differences in training, I had never considered that before. I would love to read that article if you find it.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I am curious, has anyone owned a dog with color similar to this dog?









If so, were the hairs black all the way down to the skin, or were they black tipped? Keeping in mind that lighting can really make a difference in how a dog like this photographs.

I owned this dog, and no, he had no GSD in him LOL His pedigree was very similar to Elgos, who had very similar coloring.








But if you looked at the hairs, they were black tipped, but then the bottom 1/2-3/4 of each hair was fawn/red. Since they were ALL blacked tipped though, he looks almost black in the body.

In his case, it's just the short haired version of this









So I'm curious if dogs like the one in the first photo are just an even shorter/tightered coated version, or if their hairs are solid black?


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## susan tuck

Terrasita I don't even know what "trigger reactive prey" means. I even did a google search and can't find that term. 

I LOVE a dog with a ton of prey drive. I can't stand donkeys with little or no prey drive. You can control prey drive through training but you can't manufacture drives.


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## Jim Nash

I love GSDs and have worked 2 . My first one had EPI and died of an ulcer related issue at 7 . He was a ball of energy his whole life but could calm down at home . Those were the only health issues and his death was quite sudden . He was in his prime , very strong and agile and looked young for his age . 

My retired K9 worked up until he was 11 and noone could ever guess he was that old . Other then his eyesight going bad physically he's alot younger looking and acting for his age .

Having seen 12-16 new GSD Patrol K9's a year in our classes , I agree health is an issue with GSDs compared to Mals or DSs but to the degree I'm seeing in this discussion I don't think it's that bad . We seem to have good and bad years but most of the GSDs go on to work well up to 7-8 years old then we start seeing a decline physically fairly quickly but a few work well past that point . We usually get 1-2 Mals or DSs in a class and I can only remember a couple through the years that had health problems that led to an early retirement otherwise they seem to last as long as most GSDs .

The biggest problem I see with GSDs is they aren't has strong mentally in manwork as they use to be . The Mals and Duthcies seem to do better percentagewise . This is just a preferance but I find a good GSD much easier to train then the rest and I find most new handlers do better with a GSD . Maybe that's just me though having more experiance with GSDs and preferring them .

With that said , for years when I was a trainer and even after I stepped down as one I pushed our unit to start getting more Mals and DSs because of that issue with GSDs . Finally , I have seen the unit start using and training more Mals and DSs for other departments . 

When I was a K9 guy , I was and still am into performance over breed . If I could of taken a 3rd dog I would have asked for a Dutchie . 

I'm not a breeder but I personally don't care what GSD breeders have to do to improve things just as long as what they produce works well on the street .


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## Sandra King

> It's not just hips and elbows, it's BACKS, it's SHOULDERS, it's BLOAT, etc... It's the overall piss poor health of our breed. OFA is not going to solve the problem, they don't even publish negative results without permission.


Susan, when I first joined an english speaking forum I was shocked about reading all the health issues you are fighting in the US. Most of them I have not even heard or seen in my entire life and some of them were really hard to swallow. Especially when people take pride in squeezing every single second out of their life carrying them around on carts because they can't walk anymore. Sometimes I want to punch people in the face because I believe it's cruel to keep them alive, especially when they can't even walk anymore. 

I can't do that. If a dog can't walk anymore and there is nothing you can do about it. Put that dog out of his misery. I've never even heard about so many cancer cases, so many bloats, so many dogs with EPI and dogs with that evil desease where the hind legs give out and all you can do is to stuff them into one of those doggy wheelchairs. 

We never had to deal with any of these issues. The only thing we ever had to worry about was HD/ED. I remember one or two bloats, no spinal issues, no EPI... not wobbler Syndroms... 

Just very common, normal stuff and nothing compared to what you deal with today. Most of that I've never even seen or heard of in Germany.


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## Peter Cavallaro

from my brief excursion into purchasing my first and only WL shepherd dog i would have to say IME that the GSD breeders are more honest at what they do and the mal/DS people are better at what they do. 

ie you are more likely to get he dog you think you are getting and paid for with a GSD, not sure how many mal/DS breeders 100% know if whats in their kennel is what they think it is entirely. this has no reflection on the quality of their dogs nor does it matter if you just want a dog to do the job.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> OFA is not the answer. Terrisita Almost all working line breeders in the USA who are serious about performance dogs are OFAing their stock, both hips and elbows, because that's what people who want dogs that can compete demand. They pretty much all guarantee offspring's hips, too. That's not the problem. It's not just hips and elbows, it's BACKS, it's SHOULDERS, it's BLOAT, etc... It's the overall piss poor health of our breed. OFA is not going to solve the problem, they don't even publish negative results without permission.
> 
> According to a few cops that I have talked to the problem with GSDs is the cost, the difficulty in finding the good ones, the slow rate of maturity, the health issues resulting in early retirement.
> 
> As far as "Mal meltdowns", you need to educate me, because I'm not even sure what you're talking about. If you're talking about temper tantrums, young GSDs have them too. Also you complain that we want too much prey drive but say 'back then schutzhund looked more like ringsport". How do you justify such contradicting statements? As far as Malis and herding work, I would ask Kadie what she sees since she has done that kind of work with her Malinois dogs.


Susan, please list working line breeders that OFA H & E of their dogs or list the dogs. The first thing I do when I see a dog I like is run the kennel and dog through the OFA database. How many working line dogs are littered with noch zuch and fast normal dogs. How many OFA rejects can you send to the SV nd get Fast Normals. You indicate now its spondylosis and OCD [shoulders] as well. You're right, it may be worse and at the point of no return. Gillian and Sandra indicate that this is an American issue. I don't care if OFA publishes results or not. Can I look at a pedigree and see H & E on the sire and dam and grandparents. That would be a start as far as OFA is concerned. I only know of the Mals I've seen and how they are described here. They aren't cookie cutters for sure with variables but they aren't GSDs either. I said the tasks looked like ringsport. That doesn't mean you need over the top pprey to ge tthe dogs to perform a task. GSDs have high object/retrieve drive. That is and can be separate from prey. My bouvier is high prey. She's not high object or the prey isn't generalized to objects. The GSDs don't load/explode even though they can be driven to work. All I can tell you is looking at the three in comparing stock drive, object drive and how they can be different. Their level of prey drive isn't generalized to all things--object, man, livestock. Some dogs distinguish between the three. I don't complain about anything. What do you lose with over the top prey. Dogs or so reactive and spun up in drive, they can't think. You spend all your training time trying to break through and then you're upping the ante on something that will break through the drive to get the compliance---pinch collars, sharpened pinch collars, e collars, survival [genitalia] placed e-collars. 

Drive is great. I don't want to cheer lead a dog either but more, more, more isn't necessarily better. When is it too much??? Can't settle in the house at maturity--no off switch. Now he's in the kennel. Ca't be trusted around children. For me, no stock sense and basically can't settle him in for any meaningful stock work. Loss of innate territoriality and guard. 


T


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## Randy Allen

Work the dog in front of me.......or beside me....whatever......work with the dog, get the best I can from it.

Out crosses (is that the correct term?), shrug. 
If a breeder thinks it can improve something in their line and it shows two or three generations later, who am I to argue?

Far as I can tell registries have done nothing good for any breed, working or otherwise.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> And by the way, those high drive dogs are plenty safe and reliable, providing they are worked properly. They are NOT the dog for every man, they aren't SUPPOSED to be. Not every person deserves one.
> 
> The breed needs it's health issues fixed and OFA isn't the answer. You want to know about Malinios health? Look at the numbers! The dogs work earlier in their life and work longer. Those are health issues not breed issues.
> 
> I'm not saying that adding Malinois is the answer, but it surely is something to consider, we have got to look outside of the box because what we are doing now isn't cutting it. I just love how when faced with the issues, so many GSD people what to pop their heads into the sand and act like there really is no problem at all. Give me a break! The Malinois isn't supposed to be a superior working dog, they should be equal in the work and hardy healthy dogs. As long as GSD people are content to pretend there is nothing wrong the breed will continue to fall down hill. Maybe that in itself will be the answer.
> 
> THE ****ING EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!!!!!


Define if worked properly. I don't believe you breed for the toy/stuffed dog crowd either. But why cull when you can get a $1000 puppy sale. Isn't that the mentality that's out there. How can you breed for working homes when they are near extinct. Hate to bring in Carlos but how many working homes are there for that type of dog. How extreme do you wanna go? OFA isn't the answer but it could be a start. If you really think outcrossing to a Mal is gonna fix them, from what you write, you need a whole lot of them. How many generations do you think it would take to fix the problems and still have a GSD? Why not just breed Mals. I think looking outside the box is fine after you have dealt with inside of the box. It is pointless to outcross if you are still using phenotypically crap dogs. To start, you wouldn't breed anything that didn't pass spine, hips, elbows, shoulders or hocks if OCD is an issue and that's with the Mals and the GSDs you use. Sandra and Gillian say that there is good across the pond. You could use those first to deal with what's inside the box. As for the sand, there's a huge issue but your GSD breeders would have to want to disregard the sales and tear down the breeding program and rebuild it. 

T


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## Martin Koops

Does anyone remember a post about a German documentary about the standard of German shepherds in Germany. From memory it dealt with many of the issues being discussed here.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think it was mostly concerning the SV showlines or high lines. Its almost like the working lines are underground. Sandra says they aren't hard to come by in Germany. Maybe she can list kennels. I'd love to follow what's going on with RSV2000 but the website isn't fully English yet. 

T


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## Christopher Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think it was mostly concerning the SV showlines or high lines. Its almost like the working lines are underground. Sandra says they aren't hard to come by in Germany. Maybe she can list kennels. I'd love to follow what's going on with RSV2000 but the website isn't fully English yet.
> 
> T


 From what I have been hearing the RSV2000 isnt going as good as first thought it would. I also would like to know how it is really going.


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Define if worked properly. I don't believe you breed for the toy/stuffed dog crowd either. But why cull when you can get a $1000 puppy sale. Isn't that the mentality that's out there. How can you breed for working homes when they are near extinct. Hate to bring in Carlos but how many working homes are there for that type of dog. How extreme do you wanna go? OFA isn't the answer but it could be a start. If you really think outcrossing to a Mal is gonna fix them, from what you write, you need a whole lot of them. How many generations do you think it would take to fix the problems and still have a GSD? Why not just breed Mals. I think looking outside the box is fine after you have dealt with inside of the box. It is pointless to outcross if you are still using phenotypically crap dogs. To start, you wouldn't breed anything that didn't pass spine, hips, elbows, shoulders or hocks if OCD is an issue and that's with the Mals and the GSDs you use. Sandra and Gillian say that there is good across the pond. You could use those first to deal with what's inside the box. As for the sand, there's a huge issue but your GSD breeders would have to want to disregard the sales and tear down the breeding program and rebuild it.
> 
> T


WHAT are you talking about? There's homes for working line GSDs just as there are homes for Malinois. Those of us who want working line dogs for sport want dogs with tons of prey drive as well as aggression. Sport/working homes are nearly extinct? Seriously? Who says? As a matter of fact times are tough all over, for all breeders of all breeds, that doesn't mean you dumb down the breed to suit the masses. Besides that's what the High Lines are for, people who want pretty lawn ornaments. What does this even have to do with the discussion about whether or not Mali's should be introduced into the breed? I have said time and time again there are GSDs with lots of drive, comparable to a Mali's drive and that's a good thing, Theresa. When did I say we need to introduce Mali blood for drive?

You want to know how many generations it would take? As many as it takes. Look at the study with the dalmations if you want some clarity or direction with regards to adding new blood to a breed. It's not near as crazy a concept as you want to believe. How old is the breed again? How many pointy eared herder breeds went into GSDs, Malinois, Dutchies? The breed apparently isn't stagnant, hell look at the monstrosity of changes that happened to GSDs thanks to the fads of the show rings in the 70s. Things change apparently.

I want the breed the way it used to be, back before popularity, back before the Martin Brothers, back before the invention of that stupid running trot nonsense, back when it was simply a healthy working dog, back when all 3 breeds had more in common than differences, so whatever it takes to get there would be fine by me In fact I think the best thing we could do would be to break off from those silly poufter show dogs. As I said before, I would sooner see Mali blood introduced than see working lines poluted with High Lines blood.

Oh and Terrasita, I'd love to give you a list of breeders who now not only OFA hips and elbows but provide a guarantee that offsprings hips and elbows will pass, but there's just too many, it would be easier to list the breeders that don't.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Like i said earlier if the GSD breed was that bad i think ALL k9 units would do the wise thing and just switch to malinois. People like Nate Harves breed GSDs, i don't think they just stick to them because they think they are cute. There are many k9 officers that are GSD people.
One thing i have always thought of is whether the really good dogs don't get bred enough-I look at the amount of progeny dogs like Gideon gardefense, Leon staatsmacht, sunshadow's caine, Stuka, woltair gaja nova,etc have produced and compare them to dogs like arko, carlos, a'tim and it seems like they are bred to a lot less bitches. Also i think people are too quick to use a dog as a stud all because his sire was great. I wish there were more GSDs in KNPV and NVBK where i guess its harder to title a weak dog.Nox del lupo nero is in thailand with a guy that can't handle him for basic stuff, of course we don't have good bitches to breed him to, its annoying thaat a dog like Nox is just a status symbol.
I didn't ask about adding the mali blood because i think strong healthy GSDs will become extinct but because i think some of us would like to see a lot more of them as healthy, rugged working street patrol dogs. Of course with kennels like Vikar, Lupo Nero, Salztablick, if you have the money you can have a real GSD.


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## Christopher Jones

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Like i said earlier if the GSD breed was that bad i think ALL k9 units would do the wise thing and just switch to malinois.


I dont think anyone is saying you cant get good GSD's that can do police work. The reality is for every one capable GSD there are 20 capable Malis, with better health, more endurance and much cheaper to buy.



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> People like Nate Harves breed GSDs, i don't think they just stick to them because they think they are cute. There are many k9 officers that are GSD people.


Thats exactly right, they are GSD people. The love the breed, just like other people love the Dobermann, or Rotti, or Bov's. They will tell you that there are lots of examples in their breed which are capable of being police dogs. 



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> One thing i have always thought of is whether the really good dogs don't get bred enough-I look at the amount of progeny dogs like Gideon gardefense, Leon staatsmacht, sunshadow's caine, Stuka, woltair gaja nova,etc have produced and compare them to dogs like arko, carlos, a'tim and it seems like they are bred to a lot less bitches.


I personally have known of top of the food chain Malis and Dutchies in the KNPV who have never had a breeding before been sold off. The reality is if these same dogs were owned by Hans Pegge, John te Lindert or Bert lamers they would of had 100-200 breedings. Thats just the way it is. 



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I wish there were more GSDs in KNPV and NVBK where i guess its harder to title a weak dog.


Water finds its own level. The reason there are heaps more Malis doing KNPV and NVBK is simply because the Malis outperform GSD's on a consistant basis. 
I think the saying is "You can compete with any breed, but to win you need a Malinois"



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I didn't ask about adding the mali blood because i think strong healthy GSDs will become extinct but because i think some of us would like to see a lot more of them as healthy, rugged working street patrol dogs. Of course with kennels like Vikar, Lupo Nero, Salztablick, if you have the money you can have a real GSD.


There will always be working GSD's, they are not going anywhere. The reality is that the GSD has been bred to perform predominatly in IPO where as the Mali has been bred to perform in the Ring and KNPV. Had it of been the other way around I would say the Mali would be playing catch up to the GSD.
However there is never going to be a rush of GSD folks to the ring sports, because GSD's and IPO go together like a horse and saddle.


----------



## susan tuck

Christopher Jones said:


> From what I have been hearing the RSV2000 isnt going as good as first thought it would. I also would like to know how it is really going.


You might be right, I hope not, but I really don't know. I think the organization has only officially been up and running since mid 2007, though obviously plans were in the works for a much longer period of time. I am only in my second year of membership. 

Like Terrisita, I wish the website had more English translations of it's articles. I don't blame the organization, after all it's a German organization, it's really my responsibility to find a way to translate the articles, or better yet, learn the German language. They do send the English speaking members articles both in German and translated to English, which is very thoughtful of them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> WHAT are you talking about? There's homes for working line GSDs just as there are homes for Malinois. Those of us who want working line dogs for sport want dogs with tons of prey drive as well as aggression. Sport/working homes are nearly extinct? Seriously? Who says? As a matter of fact times are tough all over, for all breeders of all breeds, that doesn't mean you dumb down the breed to suit the masses. Besides that's what the High Lines are for, people who want pretty lawn ornaments. What does this even have to do with the discussion about whether or not Mali's should be introduced into the breed? I have said time and time again there are GSDs with lots of drive, comparable to a Mali's drive and that's a good thing, Theresa. When did I say we need to introduce Mali blood for drive?
> 
> You want to know how many generations it would take? As many as it takes. Look at the study with the dalmations if you want some clarity or direction with regards to adding new blood to a breed. It's not near as crazy a concept as you want to believe. How old is the breed again? How many pointy eared herder breeds went into GSDs, Malinois, Dutchies? The breed apparently isn't stagnant, hell look at the monstrosity of changes that happened to GSDs thanks to the fads of the show rings in the 70s. Things change apparently.
> 
> I want the breed the way it used to be, back before popularity, back before the Martin Brothers, back before the invention of that stupid running trot nonsense, back when it was simply a healthy working dog, back when all 3 breeds had more in common than differences, so whatever it takes to get there would be fine by me In fact I think the best thing we could do would be to break off from those silly poufter show dogs. As I said before, I would sooner see Mali blood introduced than see working lines poluted with High Lines blood.
> 
> Oh and Terrasita, I'd love to give you a list of breeders who now not only OFA hips and elbows but provide a guarantee that offsprings hips and elbows will pass, but there's just too many, it would be easier to list the breeders that don't.


List 10 if there are so many. That Tiekerhook dog you have--how many generations of OFA or is that A stamp breeding? There's home for dogs coming out of name dogs and kennels. I don't think adding outcross blood is crazy. Its a helluva lot easier when you are dealing with one DNA rescessive problem instead of the entire skeletal frame plus trying to keep a certain mental package. Which breeder is gonna have the guts to opt out of the SV and /or AKC, cull and screw the puppy sales? You insinuate that I want the breed dumbed down. I don't. But I also don't want dogs so overdone in prey and aggression they are useless for their first intended breed purpose and the most noble purpose according to its founder. There's a lot of talk about aggression. In what situation. False sport. Ever deal with a dog in a real situation? You'll see a lot of aggression. As long as you keep a dog that is safe around children, reliable in public, has innate guard and territoriality and can read/discern a threat and will stand guard---I don't care what you call it. I prefer that the GSD keep its strong object/retrieve drive and sensible prey drive not the spun up every thing moves reactivity can't think version. No one mentioned polluting the blood with SV crappy show line dogs. I want you to work on that great list of U.S. OFA kennels and Sandra to tell us about the current kennels in Germany with the great dogs. I've seen a few scattered dogs that have OFA hips---fewer with elbows. Working line folks and Germany for that matter are really behind on elbows. I've had bouvs with 4-5 generations. Can I get that in a working line GSD pedigree? The trot was discussed in the 1890s. It was later distorted by the more is better crowd along with the back line---a roached back is a strong back??? Its also great for spondylosis. The Martin brothers are history and no one is discussing the SV show lines that have control. We're just talking working lines here. Now as far as you outcross, I'd be more in agreement with the Dutchie, not the Mal. You say you want a GSD. How do you distingish it from the Mal or Dutchie?

T


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## Sandra King

> Oh and Terrasita, I'd love to give you a list of breeders who now not only OFA hips and elbows but provide a guarantee that offsprings hips and elbows will pass, but there's just too many, it would be easier to list the breeders that don't.


You can't guarantee the passing of elbows an hips. 

And by the way. No breed is every going to be a 100% healthy. Back then, before the popularity there were no health checks. We don't know how healthy or sick those dogs really were because nobody checked. 


What pisses me off is what has been done by the highline breeders to the Shepherd. In my book, most of those dogs don't pass as a German Shepherd. I can't even look at them without feeling disgusted and I feel the same way about the American (German) Shepherd. 

Yeah, most Shepherds have been bred towards IPO but there will always be those that breed with lots of idealism and don't go for the profit but a solid working dog. 

Most of the times those are very small kennels. 
*Liebenburg, Sattelberg, Neuenkirchener Deich, vom Gimpelwald, von den Welfen, vom Seewolf, vom Mecklenburger Bolz... *

They might not have Bundessieger but they have solid working dogs. Some of them only have one female, some of them only compete on regional level but I don't care what level they compete in. Some of them don't breed to what is popular but rather for utility and to keep the bloodpool fresh. Some only have litters every couple of years or only once a year. You have to find that small kennel, that is not in it for the money but rather for idealism.


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## maggie fraser

Susan said...

"WHAT are you talking about? There's homes for working line GSDs just as there are homes for Malinois. Those of us who want working line dogs for sport want dogs with tons of prey drive as well as aggression. Sport/working homes are nearly extinct? Seriously? Who says? As a matter of fact times are tough all over, for all breeders of all breeds, that doesn't mean you dumb down the breed to suit the masses."

That sounds quite ridiculous ^ ^.

Sport homes for the gsd are very much in the minority as regards the breed, at least here they are. A gsd over the top in prey and aggression is no good to man nor beast except perhaps for mwd or the minority sport dog handlers tooled up with the latest kit. You sure a mal wouldn't suit you better Susan, 'cos it doesn't sound like you like a good gsd ? What happened to stable being an essential and desirable quality and the ability to think and discern, 'cos a dog with the tons of prey and aggression like you describe does not sound a utilitarian breed imo.


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## Faisal Khan

Do y'all train or just argue here?


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## susan tuck

You can't guarantee individual dogs will pass, agreed. What is guaranteed is if the dog doesn't pass OFA, you will get a refund, or a dog from a different litter, depending on the contract. This makes it very important that you deal with good breeders, because if the breeder is not decent, he/she will just replace shit with shit. 

The working line breeders in the USA who are targeting serious sport and working homes are paying a lot of attention to hip and elbow health. Unfortunately hips and elbows are not the only or even in my opinion, the worst of the issues. I think shoulders and even worse, multiple spine issues (DM, transitional verteabre, Caudal Equina, Spondylosis) are at least equally important. I worry we really don't have a grasp of the severity and prevelance of the multiple spinal issues with in the breed.


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## susan tuck

uh Terrasita the Tiekerhook dog came from Tiekerhook kennel in the Netherlands, I imported him back in 1991 0r 1992, so no, you aren't going to find a whole hell of a lot of OFA numbers next to the names of any Tiekerhook dogs. 

Incidently, about the SV: In an attempt to have their Breed Value Assessment program more accurately reflect the true health statistics of the breed, hip and/or elbow assesments will be free of charge if the evaluations have negative results (no a- stamp). This is being done in hopes of encouraging breeders and owners to submit bad x-rays in order to get a more accurate statistic of the incidence of hip and elbow dysplasia in the breed.

I don't really know where you get the idea that hips and elbows are worse in Europe than in the USA, Terrasita. At least that seems to be what you are implying when suggesting that breeders use the SV because it's easier than OFA. Incidently, I see NO evidence of breeders using SV because a dog will pass SV that won't pass OFA and I see no evidence that the SV system is more flawed than the OFA system. Your entire premis seems to be based on the fact that dogs can be xrayed for certification with the SV at 1 year rather than 2 years like OFA. Here's the problem, I have seen a number of dogs that came to this country as elder statesmen and then also passed OFA, so unless you can provide me with some sort of statistics showing otherwise, I refuse to argue this point with you.

I could easily list 10 kennels, but as I said I don't think OFA is going to solve the problem, so I won't bother. If you care so much, do your own research, not my job. Look up the top working line kennels in the USA, see what you find.


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## Howard Gaines III

susan tuck said:


> ...I could easily list 10 kennels, but as I said I don't think OFA is going to solve the problem, so I won't bother. If you care so much, do your own research, not my job. Look up the top working line kennels in the USA, see what you find.


 If you feed a puppy to the point of being fat and then work the developing puppy with excess weight...it puts unreal use on those joints. OFA has been wrong too many times in the past, puppys that are fat, put wear on hips and elbow joints. 

We have fat Americans who feed their animals the way they live...so why would animal health issues be any different than some of the human ones?


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## James Degale

I have a female GSD who has shows tremendous drive, hardness, good on off switch. Fullhard bite on sleeve and suit. Excels in civil work. However I think there are limitations I see in her that cannot be improved with any GSD stud that I have seen but can only be improved on by outcrossing onto another breed. So after hunting high and low I have chosen a proven stud who shows extreme drives, hardness and aggression. Hope you enjoy the video. For bookings $500 deposit secures a pup. Full payment secures pick of the litter. Only experienced handlers and serious working people need apply. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tSzxi0B5XM


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## susan tuck

Faisal Khan said:


> Do y'all train or just argue here?


Good point! 
And anyway, we're all now just rehashing the same old shit, no one's going to change anyone else's mind, so as far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over for me. 
I'm gonna go do some obedience with my dog, maybe work on dumbells or send outs, something more productive than arguing over the Internet!!!!
:razz:


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## Faisal Khan

I am going to catch some serious flak for this! What was I thinking, breaking up a perfectly good cat fight


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## maggie fraser

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you feed a puppy to the point of being fat and then work the developing puppy with excess weight...it puts unreal use on those joints. OFA has been wrong too many times in the past, puppys that are fat, put wear on hips and elbow joints.
> 
> We have fat Americans who feed their animals the way they live...so why would animal health issues be any different than some of the human ones?


I doubt whilst that may well be true, it has limiting relevance to this discussion. I think Susan makes a good point re spinal issues, and Sandra may well be surprised at the degree of spinal issues that are indeed prevalent and known according to a few studies I have read, at least to a degree in the European dogs. I have changed my computer but have not transferred many of the links I had gathered on such studies, I will have a look see when I have time.

As an aside, I have heard of a couple Tiekerhook dogs suffering from hd in their early years (within the last couple of years). The health aspect is a serious concern I think and needs addressing.....but that requires money and not sales.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Faisal Khan said:


> Do y'all train or just argue here?


 
Its a discussion. Susan and I are actually closer and on the same page than what it appears.;-)

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> uh Terrasita the Tiekerhook dog came from Tiekerhook kennel in the Netherlands, I imported him back in 1991 0r 1992, so no, you aren't going to find a whole hell of a lot of OFA numbers next to the names of any Tiekerhook dogs.
> 
> Incidently, about the SV: In an attempt to have their Breed Value Assessment program more accurately reflect the true health statistics of the breed, hip and/or elbow assesments will be free of charge if the evaluations have negative results (no a- stamp). This is being done in hopes of encouraging breeders and owners to submit bad x-rays in order to get a more accurate statistic of the incidence of hip and elbow dysplasia in the breed.
> 
> I don't really know where you get the idea that hips and elbows are worse in Europe than in the USA, Terrasita. At least that seems to be what you are implying when suggesting that breeders use the SV because it's easier than OFA. Incidently, I see NO evidence of breeders using SV because a dog will pass SV that won't pass OFA and I see no evidence that the SV system is more flawed than the OFA system. Your entire premis seems to be based on the fact that dogs can be xrayed for certification with the SV at 1 year rather than 2 years like OFA. Here's the problem, I have seen a number of dogs that came to this country as elder statesmen and then also passed OFA, so unless you can provide me with some sort of statistics showing otherwise, I refuse to argue this point with you.
> 
> I could easily list 10 kennels, but as I said I don't think OFA is going to solve the problem, so I won't bother. If you care so much, do your own research, not my job. Look up the top working line kennels in the USA, see what you find.


 
You see no evidence because no one has admitted it. Most wouldn't even send to OFA because they wouldn't dare put all that money into the fancy import that has an A Stamp only to have OFA say its dysplastic. Any of the vendors and brokers will tell you this does happen which is why some serious buyers won't even consider European x-rays. In one case they did because they admitted they were over confident about the results. OFA said DJD 1. The SV said Fast Normal. You don't have to argue the point because I had a fairly well known import tell me and a recent person disclose iton an open forum as far as dog certified by SV and not by OFA. Nor did I say hips and elbows are worse in Europe. I said, I don't trust the A Stamp program and what you have said regarding spine and dogs not working pas t age 7 has further strengthened that distrust. Sandra is giving me a little hope. My concerns are what's being done in this country with imported dogs and the reliance on the A Stamp program in terms of hip soundness. The Germans were at least 10 years if not more behind on addressing the elbow issue. And again, now you add spines. I exclude west german show lines from any discussion. Someone posted about different GSD kennels and I pulled up a pedigree on Nick Lupo Nero. Take a look at the dam line and look at the fast normal to noch zuch and fast normals in the first generation. This is why to me SV hip ratings in a pedigree are worthless. The sire has more normals in the first generation but if they were done at a year, fairly likely that those dogs were symptomatic by age 5-7 and done. I worked a bitch in herding that was dysplastic in all four extremeties. She wasn't symptomatic until age 5 which is when I retired her. How many dogs have their Sch 3 before Age 5? Its a shame you won't bother because I think it wold be good to know for anyone who would like a dog from working line stock. Since Ive tried to maintain a list of dogs that have OFA, your's would add to that especially if they included elbows. But as you said, I'll keep doing my own research.

T


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Christopher Jones said:


> I dont think anyone is saying you cant get good GSD's that can do police work. The reality is for every one capable GSD there are 20 capable Malis, with better health, more endurance and much cheaper to buy.
> 
> 
> Thats exactly right, they are GSD people. The love the breed, just like other people love the Dobermann, or Rotti, or Bov's. They will tell you that there are lots of examples in their breed which are capable of being police dogs.
> 
> 
> I personally have known of top of the food chain Malis and Dutchies in the KNPV who have never had a breeding before been sold off. The reality is if these same dogs were owned by Hans Pegge, John te Lindert or Bert lamers they would of had 100-200 breedings. Thats just the way it is.
> 
> 
> Water finds its own level. The reason there are heaps more Malis doing KNPV and NVBK is simply because the Malis outperform GSD's on a consistant basis.
> I think the saying is "You can compete with any breed, but to win you need a Malinois"
> 
> 
> There will always be working GSD's, they are not going anywhere. The reality is that the GSD has been bred to perform predominatly in IPO where as the Mali has been bred to perform in the Ring and KNPV. Had it of been the other way around I would say the Mali would be playing catch up to the GSD.
> However there is never going to be a rush of GSD folks to the ring sports, because GSD's and IPO go together like a horse and saddle.


Thanks Chris,
I agree with most of what you say cos they are known facts but the issue of fewer GSDs in KNPV IMO is more of handler preference than the breed being hard enough to compete. Lubeck von der mahler meister and Gideon gardefense perform very well in KNPV. 

@Fasail-----well i didn't intend this to be an argument, just wanted to get different opinions because i know GSD people are more cautious about 'breed purity' so to speak.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm no longer hung up on breed purity or registries. While I trial in the AKC system, I could do all my trialing in AHBA and would support a breeder that had a program and went out to address health but came back in to preserve the original type--similar to what Debbie appears to be headed with her Beaucerons. Oh and as for Nick Lupo Nero, that should be the first three generations. 


T


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Oh and as for Nick Lupo Nero, that should be the first three generations. 


T[/QUOTE]

Sorry i don't get this part.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Oh and as for Nick Lupo Nero, that should be the first three generations.
> 
> 
> T


Sorry i don't get this part. [/QUOTE]

He was my pedigree example of looking at the pedigree and the breeding regarding hip certifications. The SV allows sub normal and what would be considered borderline and mildly dysplastic to be bred. It doesn't help if you are really trying to breed out dysplasia. So if you look at Nick's pedigree on the dam side, consider the noch zuch and number of fast normals in the first three generations.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

If you want to see a comparative of OFA/SV/
FCI hip gradings, scroll down to the botton of the page: http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html
Look at the dam pedigree for the fast normals and noch zuch and consider that the dogs with fast normal and noch zuch do not have OFA passable hips. Huge increase in the risk of producing dysplasia even though Nick's dam was a normal. What's behind her is consistently fast normal and noch zuch--complete crap shoot on hips. 



T


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If you want to see a comparative of OFA/SV/
> FCI hip gradings, scroll down to the botton of the page: http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html
> Look at the dam pedigree for the fast normals and noch zuch and consider that the dogs with fast normal and noch zuch do not have OFA passable hips. Huge increase in the risk of producing dysplasia even though Nick's dam was a normal. What's behind her is consistently fast normal and noch zuch--complete crap shoot on hips.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T


Thanks


----------



## susan tuck

I'm just going to jump in here to clear up a little misinformation:

1. OFA rating comparision chart. This is not an exact comparison, not by a long shot. I myself have seen dogs with SV "a normal" ratings be classified by OFA as fair, more commonly they are classified as good, occasionally excellent. I have also seen SV hips rated as fast normal be scored fair by OFA, many times. Sometimes OFA rates higher, sometimes OFA rates lower, on average, SV a normal is in the range of OFA's E, G, F. I happen to know someone who's dog came with SV noch zugelassen rating but when the same xray was submitted to OFA the dog got a rating of good! So I guess the moral of the story is shit happens, xrays are read by human eyes not computers, and so neither organization is perfect.

2. The SV only will provide pink papers to puppies out of breed surveyed stock. In order to get a breed survey, you must have an "a" stamp, both hips and elbows. 

To my knowledge, neither AKC or GSDCA has any hip or elbow certification requirements for breeding. 

RSV2000 also requires passing score hips and elbows for breed survey.


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## Gillian Schuler

http://www.vom-kaltenborn.de/Korungen.html

http://www.vommuellerhaus.de/english/index.html

http://www.vom-bargstedter-moor.de/

The mother of their A-litter is from Finch vom Loyola (father: Lump vom Gleisdreieck)

Axel vom-bargstedter-moor is now in America - the comments on him are in English on their website.

http://www.sigisliebe.de/home.htm

I got annoyed at myself afterwards for mentioning "high drive" dogs as one thing it doesn't do is describe the dog's characteristics. 

I don’t want a hectic dog, I want a dog that engages well, is athletic and has strong nerves. HD normal or nearly normal, elbows normal and straight back. With such a dog, there are unlimited possibilities in my mind.

An excerpt from Bargstedter Moor breeder, Renate Sievers:

The "Leistungszucht" and the former DDR dogs are extremely similar in appearance, that they could be seen as one population. With one very decisive point: The "Mauerhunde" were bred for "sharpness" (Schärfe) but in the Leistungszucht the character of the dog was always upfront. It still is today.

However, these German Shepherds had no forum in former years and many people do not know of them. They are perfectly healthy family dogs that are always trying to read their owner's wishes from their lips."

OK, so much for that.

I honestly think the way to go is RSV 2000.

They have to adhere to the one and only Breeding Standard for German Shepherds and HD normal, practically normal and "noch zugelassen" (still allowed to breed from) plus elbow rating but and here is the big *BUT *they carry out Körungen 1, 2 and 3 and the dogs have to scale the “Steilwand”, Oxer, free and easily. (See pictures on the first link).

In the link to Sigisliebe the Körungen Results 1 + 2 are shown. Bud, with his handler Karla Bachmann, took part in the DHV 2011 and it was noted that he is not an easy dog to train, especially in the protection where his active aggression and dominance towards the helper is noted. When handled by strangers, he is dominant and rebuffs them. He also has a strong drive (starker Trieb).

Terrasita, I hope this helps your research. The breeders mentioned above (there are far more of course and good ones in SV but SV will not allow breeders to belong to both clubs so the above ones left SV).

From what I read, I think your fears of the GSD becoming a hectic POS dog, are not warranted, at least not in the RSV.


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## Gillian Schuler

Mauerhunde = dogs patrolling Ulbricht's wall in DDR times.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks Chris,
> I agree with most of what you say cos they are known facts but the issue of fewer GSDs in KNPV IMO is more of handler preference than the breed being hard enough to compete. Lubeck von der mahler meister and Gideon gardefense perform very well in KNPV.


It has far more to do with the GSD as a breed not been cut out for KNPV like the Malinois and DS are. 
Convincing yourself otherwise isnt going to change the reality.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Christopher Jones said:


> It has far more to do with the GSD as a breed not been cut out for KNPV like the Malinois and DS are.
> Convincing yourself otherwise isnt going to change the reality.


Lol, i'm not taking it as serious as you think, but again think of why few lubeck progeny are in KNPV, those ive seen in IPO look like they are as strong as he his but the handler is just comfortable doing IPO.
Yes there are more malis suitable for knpv but i think there are more gsds that are suitable for knpv than are being used/trained for it.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I'll offer a Solomon's judgement here :lol:

Germany doesn't do KNPV or Mondio officially and never has.

Germany is a Schutzhund country, whether Schutzhund or IPO trials, which are basically the same. You can't change the German attitude to sport and, tell me where they are going to train their dogs and trial them?
Whether the GSDs could have been adapted to KNPV doesn't even enter the equation.

I think the IPO / Schutzhund has lowered its standards, not only to accomodate the GSD but other breeds, i.e. Airedale, Riesenschnautzer, Boxer, Briard, Rottweiler and Co. And, most importantly, to accommodate the normal dog handler who doesn't know what a dog is but knows the routine of Schutzhund / IPO.

Das kotzt mich manchmal an!!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Lol, i'm not taking it as serious as you think, but again think of why few lubeck progeny are in KNPV, those ive seen in IPO look like they are as strong as he his but the handler is just comfortable doing IPO.
> Yes there are more malis suitable for knpv but i think there are more gsds that are suitable for knpv than are being used/trained for it.


 
I agree


----------



## Sandra King

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'll offer a Solomon's judgement here :lol:
> 
> Germany doesn't do KNPV or Mondio officially and never has.
> 
> Germany is a Schutzhund country, whether Schutzhund or IPO trials, which are basically the same. You can't change the German attitude to sport and, tell me where they are going to train their dogs and trial them?
> Whether the GSDs could have been adapted to KNPV doesn't even enter the equation.
> 
> I think the IPO / Schutzhund has lowered its standards, not only to accomodate the GSD but other breeds, i.e. Airedale, Riesenschnautzer, Boxer, Briard, Rottweiler and Co. And, most importantly, to accommodate the normal dog handler who doesn't know what a dog is but knows the routine of Schutzhund / IPO.
> 
> Das kotzt mich manchmal an!!


And recently even Golden Retrievers. :lol::lol::lol:

While I believe that anyone should be allowed to do Schutzhund with any kind of dog he wishes to handle, I also believe there should be a difference between the sport and breeding prospects. Create a Sport Venue and create a venue for people that are really serious about it and that can help to evaluate the dog for the breeding programs.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> I'm just going to jump in here to clear up a little misinformation:
> 
> 1. OFA rating comparision chart. This is not an exact comparison, not by a long shot. I myself have seen dogs with SV "a normal" ratings be classified by OFA as fair, more commonly they are classified as good, occasionally excellent. I have also seen SV hips rated as fast normal be scored fair by OFA, many times. Sometimes OFA rates higher, sometimes OFA rates lower, on average, SV a normal is in the range of OFA's E, G, F. I happen to know someone who's dog came with SV noch zugelassen rating but when the same xray was submitted to OFA the dog got a rating of good! So I guess the moral of the story is shit happens, xrays are read by human eyes not computers, and so neither organization is perfect.
> 
> 2. The SV only will provide pink papers to puppies out of breed surveyed stock. In order to get a breed survey, you must have an "a" stamp, both hips and elbows.
> 
> To my knowledge, neither AKC or GSDCA has any hip or elbow certification requirements for breeding.
> 
> RSV2000 also requires passing score hips and elbows for breed survey.


 
Susan,

The SV system is marketing. They have a certification system that allows dysplastic dogs to be bred. You can have a system but when it allows dysplasia in and given the state of the breed as you describe it, it hasn't improved anything. Theoretically, all it does is keep the worst hips out, barring politics of certain eras. Sorry but I have had dogs out of three different breeds out of strong OFA pedigrees and the litter pass rate was high. I don't need AKC or GSDCA to require anything. American line OFA sound pedigrees aren't as hard to come by as working line OFA pedigrees. When you run the pedigrees of the Sch club after instinct testing a bunch of great dogs and see the degree of dysplasia, its an eye opener. Coupled with what you say. Its a dismal state indeed. I'll stick with the OFA system and 2 year old certifications. It will be interesting how far RSV2000 gets. I think that's a beginning at least on one level.

T


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Terraita,
Instead of battilng Susan Tuck on this, I suggest you start reading the RSV 2000 website. Even if they don't translate everything in English, the Körungen give for the analysis of each dog, the maximal notes and the notes gained. 

If anyone needs some translations, I will try to oblige, try to keep the ball flat - we (GDS handlers) are all in the same boot.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Gillian Schuler said:


> http://www.vom-kaltenborn.de/Korungen.html
> 
> http://www.vommuellerhaus.de/english/index.html
> 
> http://www.vom-bargstedter-moor.de/
> 
> The mother of their A-litter is from Finch vom Loyola (father: Lump vom Gleisdreieck)
> 
> Axel vom-bargstedter-moor is now in America - the comments on him are in English on their website.
> 
> http://www.sigisliebe.de/home.htm
> 
> I got annoyed at myself afterwards for mentioning "high drive" dogs as one thing it doesn't do is describe the dog's characteristics.
> 
> I don’t want a hectic dog, I want a dog that engages well, is athletic and has strong nerves. HD normal or nearly normal, elbows normal and straight back. With such a dog, there are unlimited possibilities in my mind.
> 
> An excerpt from Bargstedter Moor breeder, Renate Sievers:
> 
> The "Leistungszucht" and the former DDR dogs are extremely similar in appearance, that they could be seen as one population. With one very decisive point: The "Mauerhunde" were bred for "sharpness" (Schärfe) but in the Leistungszucht the character of the dog was always upfront. It still is today.
> 
> However, these German Shepherds had no forum in former years and many people do not know of them. They are perfectly healthy family dogs that are always trying to read their owner's wishes from their lips."
> 
> OK, so much for that.
> 
> I honestly think the way to go is RSV 2000.
> 
> They have to adhere to the one and only Breeding Standard for German Shepherds and HD normal, practically normal and "noch zugelassen" (still allowed to breed from) plus elbow rating but and here is the big *BUT *they carry out Körungen 1, 2 and 3 and the dogs have to scale the “Steilwand”, Oxer, free and easily. (See pictures on the first link).
> 
> In the link to Sigisliebe the Körungen Results 1 + 2 are shown. Bud, with his handler Karla Bachmann, took part in the DHV 2011 and it was noted that he is not an easy dog to train, especially in the protection where his active aggression and dominance towards the helper is noted. When handled by strangers, he is dominant and rebuffs them. He also has a strong drive (starker Trieb).
> 
> Terrasita, I hope this helps your research. The breeders mentioned above (there are far more of course and good ones in SV but SV will not allow breeders to belong to both clubs so the above ones left SV).
> 
> From what I read, I think your fears of the GSD becoming a hectic POS dog, are not warranted, at least not in the RSV.


Thanks Gillian. This is all very interesting. Now we have work evals later in life to see how dogs are holding up as well as the mention of later life x-rays. As you said, I really like the discussion of the dog's character, or at least reference to. I wouldn't say I'm worried about hectic POS. I just want the GSD to remain in character what has distinguished it from others. I don't want them bred so high on dominance and prey, you have handler aggression and inability to distinguish a child from an adult and inability to settle and turn off when the work is done. I love the intuitiveness and analysis of the breed along with the unequivocal loyalty. I think a good GSD has clear prey with a calm determination and high object drive. They are committed to the work. It may not look as fast and flashy as the Mal/DS but its an effective dog in the work. The other thread talked about handler hard with the extreme being tendency toward handler aggression or protest and then the other end of the spectrum handler sensitive. I have had two hard GSD bitches. Any corrections I gave them had the effect of ohhhh, did you say something. Never submission and they didn't take corrections from any one else. Yet they had a willing to please and I guess what some say as genetic obedience but it had nothing to do with submission and sensitivity. Hard dogs respect leadership and fairness and with a good sense of pack, you don't run into problems. Along with what you provided and some Sandra mentioned, I have lots to look at. I have a friend here that is OFAing her working line stock. She also works her dogs and has a great kid that her puppies adore. I love the way she raises them. She's very close [couple of hours]. While the broader picture may look dismal, there are smaller breeders like Nita and a few on the board that come to mind that are trying to go in the right direction. Hopefully within the next year or so there will be litters on the ground to look at.

I try to be cautious in the breed comparisons. There aren't a lot of mals here. I've watched them at the Dog House and there were several at the Balabanov seminar. There aren't any dutchies here except one that one of the locals just got. Who says what is here is the creme of the crop? Mostly, its what I read on the board here about the different dogs that makes me really cautious in taking the GSD in that direction. I understand other's sport/LE/Military needs and how even the LE and Military needs have evolved since the breed was created. Yet, I'd still like to see certain characteristics not bred out. 


T


----------



## Randy Allen

As a nonbreeder and as only a 25+ year GSD keeper I'd like to say and point out something here; maybe a few outcrossings could be a good thing, over the years the gene pool has only gotten smaller and smaller, for various reasons. But there's no denying the breed has gone down hill as a result.

All the attributes attached to the GSD come from the herding mentality, the breeding world seems to forget that fact. Just as from within a sporting breeding of anysort, some of the litter make good whatevers and some are just this or that: some from a herding breeding are good for this, some are better aimed at that.
But what seems to be missing in the equation of the GSD is what it's primary purpose should be aimed toward when breeding.....herding.


----------



## susan tuck

High prey drive is an important and prized quality, you would be wrong to assume all very high prey drive dogs are nervy, overly sharp or hectic just because they are high drive, these things most definitely do not automatically go hand in hand. Ask the Mali and Dutchie people if you don't believe me.

A hard dog is one who is resilient, that's another highly prized quality in our dogs. 

LOVE a high drive, hard dog. That's the goal. DON'T like nervy, overly sharp, overly defensive, or hectic dogs.


----------



## Sandra King

susan tuck said:


> High prey drive is an important and prized quality, but you cannot assume that all very high prey drive dogs are going to be nervy, overly sharp or hectic, these things most definitely do not go hand in hand.
> 
> A hard dog is one who is resilient, that's another highly prized quality in our dogs.
> 
> LOVE a high drive, hard dog. That's the goal. DON'T like nervy, overly sharp, overly defensive, or hectic dogs.


Absolutely agree. 

Most people mistake a handler aggressive dog as a hard dog. But handler aggressivity has nothing to do with a hard dog. 

I prefer solid dogs. Plain and simple solid dogs, suitable to be worked in different venues. If I'd like to do sar, I'd like the dog to be suitable for that. If I change my mind and want to pursue herding, I'll do that. If I want to do SchH instead, the dog should be capable of doing it and when I want to do Ring. I'll do Ring and the dog should be capable for that too. 

A versatile, solid, agile, enduring dog not best at anything but good at everything he/she does. 

That is what a shepherd should be like. A Jack of all Trades!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> High prey drive is an important and prized quality, you would be wrong to assume all very high prey drive dogs are nervy, overly sharp or hectic just because they are high drive, these things most definitely do not automatically go hand in hand. Ask the Mali and Dutchie people if you don't believe me.
> 
> A hard dog is one who is resilient, that's another highly prized quality in our dogs.
> 
> LOVE a high drive, hard dog. That's the goal. DON'T like nervy, overly sharp, overly defensive, or hectic dogs.


No I don't assume anything. That's why I try to be specific. I work off of prey/hunt and pack drive. Drive can be a generic term. For me its the dog that is ready to rock and roll 24/7 no matter how hard the condition. They stay committed to the work. I like to think in terms of high object/retrieve balanced with defense, territoriality, pack. I pick the puppy that is absolutely rock solid in environmental nerves and people nerves. Furthermore, its not just about prey drive for training. How does the dog relate to people, trainability, loyalty to his handler/pack, etc. I keep dogs in the house and the GSD bitches have always run loose---no kennels. So dog needs an off switch. There's also the quality of the prey and hopefully its not overgeneralized and/or reactive.

T


----------



## susan tuck

Really? I guess I should have inclued the quote of yours that I was responding to so there would be no confusion. I was responding to your statement:

" I don't want them bred so high on dominance and prey, you have handler aggression and inability to distinguish a child from an adult and inability to settle and turn off when the work is done."

In that statement you are confusing drives with temperment issues, and the two do not go hand in hand. 

Obviously it's not all about prey drive, no one said it was.


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## mike naranjo

I know this thread is from 2011 but Max BRN 3737 looks like he passed away back in 2008 per bloedlijnen.nl, I current own BRN 23677, my boy Billy appears to be the only dog to have come out with the same exact coat as Max. However GSD are non existent in these lines. 



Joby Becker said:


> Look at the dog in the bottom half... pedigree names Anouska...BRN 86
> This dog also goes back to Lion...3 generations back who was a Mix with GSD in him.
> 
> so does Remco, and Andor ( the 2 dogs that Harry Mentioned)
> 
> Arno Kleine Schaars (229) has a GSD 5 generations back, through Carla on the bottom half, and he looks like a fawn GSD to me.
> 
> Some of this stuff HAS to come from GSD used further back, I dont care what anyone says....
> 
> I can't say where the color comes from or certain types..but it looks like a few dogs with GSD in the ped have "GSD like" coloring, and others have more GSD type
> 
> I am no genetic expert, but in other types of dogs that is called "throwback" markings or phenotypes..and they do happen when you mix dogs...


----------



## Joby Becker

mike naranjo said:


> I know this thread is from 2011 but Max BRN 3737 looks like he passed away back in 2008 per bloedlijnen.nl, I current own BRN 23677, my boy Billy appears to be the only dog to have come out with the same exact coat as Max. *However GSD are non existent in these lines*.


 wanna bet?

unless you mean "non-existent" as a synonym for "exists" but a small %.


----------



## Joby Becker

let me know and Ill start digging.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Would you mix an entirely different breed into your program to 'improve' the genepool? I see a lot of malis that have had several other breeds in their older generations. Recently i checked Chris Race's dog's pedigree and i saw a black and tan dog, although the dog's parents were to my surprise fawn in color i guess there's a bit of GSD blood in it.
> Nowadays it seems that many sport/police folks prefer the mali cos it appears faster, more agile,etc. I still prefer the GSD though. I really don't know if the not too recent switch to dutchies/malis is solely based on them being stronger police type dogs. The only Gsds i've seen(few) were high drive dogs but i still wonder if truly the malinois has more individuals that are police k9 type, would you consider say breeding your stud to a good dutch line mali?


Yes, but not to simply make a GSD more "mal like". Each has their purpose and they are supposed to be different. In general, I don't like the idea of closed stud books


----------



## Joby Becker

mike naranjo said:


> I know this thread is from 2011 but Max BRN 3737 looks like he passed away back in 2008 per bloedlijnen.nl, I current own BRN 23677, my boy Billy appears to be the only dog to have come out with the same exact coat as Max. *However GSD are non existent in these lines.*


Hey Mike. could not resist jumping the gun....

are you serious? 

The pedigree info on many dogs is suspect. I have yet to find a KNPV dog that shows bullterrier in its pedigree, but see it evident in lots of dogs. 

So there is no way one can say GSD is non-existent, because they were not there when the dogs were all bred.

If you DO trust what is listed here ya go...



* I looked up your dog "Billy"*

*What would you say if I said every single dog in the 3rd generation goes back to GSD?, 8 out of 8 *


that to me is NOT non-existent....call me crazy...


----------



## Joby Becker

75% of the 4th..

12 out of 16


----------



## Kevin Cyr

Molly Graf said:


> I think there are MANY MANY Mali breeders who are crossing into GSD - most of the time it's quite obvious in the resulting "Malis" that are black/tan, or sable, larger boned or GSD tail-set, structure or etc.
> 
> I wonder too - where did the black/tan Malinois come from if not resulting from a GSD crossed in?


The problem is the results, they're horrible for consistency


----------



## Zakia Days

Joby Becker said:


> Really??? Would you bet any money on that?
> How about a pup? or a stud fee?


I'll take that on. I agree that just cuz u get a black and tan mal doesn't mean there's GSD in the blood line at all. Tervuren, Groenendael, or GSD mixed in can all "cause" the color pattern.


----------



## Victoria Harte

Sandra King said:


> Agreed!


:grin:


----------



## Marcel Winter

The black colour in the KNPV malinois is from the groendaeler
Andor v/d IJsselvloed 3 times dutch champion KNPV PH-II

In KNPV I don,t know any breeder who is using GSD in 
the malinois bloodlines today.


----------



## Joby Becker

Zakia Days said:


> I'll take that on. I agree that just cuz u get a black and tan mal doesn't mean there's GSD in the blood line at all. Tervuren, Groenendael, or GSD mixed in can all "cause" the color pattern.


take what on?

I am not saying that GSD is the source for sure, or the only one.

Just was saying that when someone says that there is no GSD in the lines, and I look at the pedigree and see GSD in it, usually through a few different avenues, there *is GSD in it*, and who can say if that has an influence on the color pattern or not? no one can.

I have had color patterns pop up that have not appeared for several generations..

There are quite a few dogs that I look at and I say to myself, I bet that dog goes back to Lion in some way, and I am usually right...just based on the looks of the dog...


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## Wayne Scace

I am one of the "I don't give a fig what the dog looks like as long as it does it's job and does it well" club members..


----------



## Catherine Gervin

susan tuck said:


> Within the working lines, we have major health issues in the breed. We have dogs that even when healthy at 3 and 4 are pretty much done by age 7. That's a problem. Outcrossing is worth considering. Something needs to be figured out. No working line GSD person is looking for a Mali in GSD clothes (though in reality the breeds should not be that dissimilar, both have the same purpose). What we are looking for are high drive HEALTHY GSDs. I liked the drives of my Tiekerhook dog, but he had bad hips, bad elbows, bad shoulder and back. Is it too much to ask for a healthy high drive GSD? I sure hope not. I haven't given up.......yet.


i can't help but wonder why you see SO MANY dual purpose working military GSDs who work their entire lives, multiple tours, multiple handlers, various climates and terrains and these animals are retired at 10/11/12 years of age and they look like greying 6 year old dogs. do they have outstanding vet care and great diet and constant satisfaction through having a job to do? of course they do, but these are not the dogs who are allegedly toast at 5 or 6 years into their careers.
sure, the military breeding program is Malinois, and there are many many working Malinois in the United States Military, but there are a few Pit Bulls and Pit Bull crosses, too, and the dog who was awarded the Metal of Honor was a Mal/Bull Mastiff cross. oh, and lots of Labradors--did not mean to leave out the Labradors!! what they seem to care about is which dogs can do the work and do it for long enough to be worth the time and money spent training it. there are still manymanyMANY GSDs out there doing exactly that.


----------



## Dave Colborn

I cn't help but wonder where you get your statistics?


Catherine Gervin said:


> i can't help but wonder why you see SO MANY dual purpose working military GSDs who work their entire lives, multiple tours, multiple handlers, various climates and terrains and these animals are retired at 10/11/12 years of age and they look like greying 6 year old dogs. do they have outstanding vet care and great diet and constant satisfaction through having a job to do? of course they do, but these are not the dogs who are allegedly toast at 5 or 6 years into their careers.
> sure, the military breeding program is Malinois, and there are many many working Malinois in the United States Military, but there are a few Pit Bulls and Pit Bull crosses, too, and the dog who was awarded the Metal of Honor was a Mal/Bull Mastiff cross. oh, and lots of Labradors--did not mean to leave out the Labradors!! what they seem to care about is which dogs can do the work and do it for long enough to be worth the time and money spent training it. there are still manymanyMANY GSDs out there doing exactly that.


----------



## susan tuck

I don't have experience with military/police dogs, I do have experience with sport dogs, and I think both come from the same lines. In my breed, working line GSDs, we have a lot of serious health issues that prevent a long sport career. I have seen some GSDs last a long, long time, still competing at 7 and 8 years old, but I have to say in my experience, they are the exceptions, not the average working line GSD. I don't even think hips are as big an issue these days as neck, spinal issues and shoulders, we are really just beginning to see the tip of that iceberg, I'm afraid. 

If I'm wrong, if the working lines being used by military/police are different and healthier, and consequently last longer on average, I'd sure like to know what those lines are, and I'd stick to them like glue!


----------



## Sarah Platts

susan tuck said:


> I I don't even think hips are as big an issue these days as neck, spinal issues and shoulders, we are really just beginning to see the tip of that iceberg, I'm afraid.


Question? Is this because of faulty structure (genetic wise) or to much wear and tear on the training/trialing field caused by folks jamming or abusing those areas through faulty catching or yanking?


----------



## Kevin Cyr

Dave Colborn said:


> I cn't help but wonder where you get your statistics?


 
I think facebook right?


----------



## susan tuck

Sarah Platts said:


> Question? Is this because of faulty structure (genetic wise) or to much wear and tear on the training/trialing field caused by folks jamming or abusing those areas through faulty catching or yanking?


I think the following, all of which seem to be more common in GSDs than other pointy eared herders, must have a genetic and structural component: OCD in shoulder joint; DM; degenerative disc disease; lubrosacral stenosis/transitional vertebral segment.

I would think these conditions are exacerbated by wear and tear, and consequently the dogs break down earlier, but obviously not caused by normal wear and tear. I consider normal wear and tear to be what a normal dog, who is well cared for, would experience in training, on the trial field, and out in service, whether SAR or Police or Military. It's inevitable that there will be faulty catches, but unless you have either a crap helper or a sadist helper, it wouldn't be a constant thing.


----------



## susan tuck

Dave Colborn said:


> I cn't help but wonder where you get your statistics?





Kevin Cyr said:


> I think facebook right?


I don't know if these comments were directed towards me, this is an old conversation and there's a few people who have been involved, so I'm a little confused. but if these comments were directed towards me, let me be very clear, I do NOT have any statistics [-(.....and I don't get my info off of FaceBook :-k . I'm only talking about something I've personally seen in others dogs and experienced with my own dogs, so to me, it seems like a lot of GSDs break down early. I'd actually be thrilled to be wrong.[-o<


----------



## Dave Colborn

Mine was directed at Catherine gervin.



susan tuck said:


> I don't know if these comments were directed towards me, this is an old conversation and there's a few people who have been involved, so I'm a little confused. but if these comments were directed towards me, let me be very clear, I do NOT have any statistics [-(.....and I don't get my info off of FaceBook :-k . I'm only talking about something I've personally seen in others dogs and experienced with my own dogs, so to me, it seems like a lot of GSDs break down early. I'd actually be thrilled to be wrong.[-o<


----------



## Kevin Cyr

Dave Colborn said:


> Mine was directed at Catherine gervin.


Likewise...


----------



## Catherine Gervin

Dave Colborn said:


> I cn't help but wonder where you get your statistics?


based on the dogs my husband has personally seen during his time in Afghanistan, based on the dogs they are currently training at Hanscom Air Force Base, based on the offerings i have seen on the "Adopt a Retired MWD", and guess what, every single one of them was a German Shepherd. 
are they all 100%pure-since-the-dawn-of-time German Shepherds? i couldn't say, i can only say that their handlers call them GSDs, versus the one handler i've met for the Highway Patrol, who does have a GSD, but whose previous, beloved, deceased partner was a GSD/Mal cross, he believed.
and the dog who won the Medal of Honor, he was absolutely a Mal/Bull Mastiff, and his story was fantastic--unfrickinbelievable animal--but i'm fairly sure he is also now deceased.


----------



## Catherine Gervin

also, being held at gunpoint by some feckless naysayer could not get me to go onto Facebook, soooooo sorry boys, some minimal but actual reference points.


----------



## Catherine Gervin

susan tuck said:


> I don't have experience with military/police dogs, I do have experience with sport dogs, and I think both come from the same lines. In my breed, working line GSDs, we have a lot of serious health issues that prevent a long sport career. I have seen some GSDs last a long, long time, still competing at 7 and 8 years old, but I have to say in my experience, they are the exceptions, not the average working line GSD. I don't even think hips are as big an issue these days as neck, spinal issues and shoulders, we are really just beginning to see the tip of that iceberg, I'm afraid.


so nearly 2 decades ago--how scary is that?!--i was going to purchase a working-line Doberman from this really wonderful lady in Massachusetts, Cedarhoff, and her male was permanently retired at the age of 5 (i think he was 5 when she retired him and he was 6 when he fathered the litter i was considering?) because of spinal damage he incurred during the constant practices he went through in order to spend so much time successfully trialing. they broke him because he threw himself into the bites so hard that it destroyed discs in his neck. does that make him inferior or just unlucky? i don't know...his life was pretty plush from that point on, indoor living as a prime stud dog. what i guess i'm wondering is how much repetitive action is considered enough to justify taking a dog out of competition. should there be no end to the amount of abuse a dog's body can take? is that the only acceptable condition? if they can't pull it off with Thoroughbreds how fair is it to expect in dogs?


----------



## Dave Colborn

[can you link the CMH dog, pleaseQUOTE=Catherine Gervin;610161]based on the dogs my husband has personally seen during his time in Afghanistan, based on the dogs they are currently training at Hanscom Air Force Base, based on the offerings i have seen on the "Adopt a Retired MWD", and guess what, every single one of them was a German Shepherd. 
are they all 100%pure-since-the-dawn-of-time German Shepherds? i couldn't say, i can only say that their handlers call them GSDs, versus the one handler i've met for the Highway Patrol, who does have a GSD, but whose previous, beloved, deceased partner was a GSD/Mal cross, he believed.
and the dog who won the Medal of Honor, he was absolutely a Mal/Bull Mastiff, and his story was fantastic--unfrickinbelievable animal--but i'm fairly sure he is also now deceased.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Brian McQuain

Dave Colborn said:


> [can you link the CMH dog, pleaseQUOTE=Catherine Gervin;610161]based on the dogs my husband has personally seen during his time in Afghanistan, based on the dogs they are currently training at Hanscom Air Force Base, based on the offerings i have seen on the "Adopt a Retired MWD", and guess what, every single one of them was a German Shepherd.
> are they all 100%pure-since-the-dawn-of-time German Shepherds? i couldn't say, i can only say that their handlers call them GSDs, versus the one handler i've met for the Highway Patrol, who does have a GSD, but whose previous, beloved, deceased partner was a GSD/Mal cross, he believed.
> and the dog who won the Medal of Honor, he was absolutely a Mal/Bull Mastiff, and his story was fantastic--unfrickinbelievable animal--but i'm fairly sure he is also now deceased.


[/QUOTE]


Id like to see that link as well


----------



## susan tuck

Catherine I'm sorry, but I'm having a lot of trouble following your train of thought. 

Earlier I think you said that you see lots of older GSDs in military service.

Later you brought up Thoroughbred horses and said if they can't pull it off with them how fair is it to expect in dogs.

Pull what off?

Then you mention a doberman, asking was he inferior or just unlucky because maybe he was worked too hard?

How would I know and what does it matter? 

I'm not sure what any of the above has to do with the many genetic issues that plague the GSD.


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## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> I think the following, all of which seem to be more common in GSDs than other pointy eared herders, must have a genetic and structural component: OCD in shoulder joint; DM; degenerative disc disease; lubrosacral stenosis/transitional vertebral segment.
> 
> I would think these conditions are exacerbated by wear and tear, and consequently the dogs break down earlier, but obviously not caused by normal wear and tear. I consider normal wear and tear to be what a normal dog, who is well cared for, would experience in training, on the trial field, and out in service, whether SAR or Police or Military. It's inevitable that there will be faulty catches, but unless you have either a crap helper or a sadist helper, it wouldn't be a constant thing.


Forgot to include hip dysplasia; elbow dysplasia; GDV; IBD and allergy issues on the list


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## Peter Cho

Why would you do this? 


Different dogs for different folks.
Both breeds are really amazing, if you think about it. 
I suppose I have been lucky. I have had much better GSD than mals/dutchies. 

I think most in my club with mals would transition to a GSD for their next dog. In fact, I am pretty sure of this. It is just harder to get more out of a GSD using just prey. So, many would look flat. Hence, the transition to mals.


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## Catherine Gervin

susan tuck said:


> Catherine I'm sorry, but I'm having a lot of trouble following your train of thought.
> 
> Earlier I think you said that you see lots of older GSDs in military service.
> 
> Later you brought up Thoroughbred horses and said if they can't pull it off with them how fair is it to expect in dogs.
> 
> Pull what off?
> 
> Then you mention a doberman, asking was he inferior or just unlucky because maybe he was worked too hard?
> 
> How would I know and what does it matter?
> 
> I'm not sure what any of the above has to do with the many genetic issues that plague the GSD.


o.k., "pull off" in thought to the animal that takes repetitive physical trauma on as part of it's function as humans see it...and i guess your stance is that GSDs who fall apart do so because their genetic make up is inferior and i'm musing aloud that maybe there are badly-bred dogs who can't take the work because they are flawed on a skeletal level and then maybe there are also good dogs who break down because they are just ground down. as for race horses that is exactly what happens many many times because their workload is too demanding for a young, developing animal. the lucky ones who do well get a higher level of care from the moment they become lucrative enough to warrant it and suddenly you find an adult animal who achieves a healthy body because it was there all along, it just got worked into trouble. 
is it not plausible to think that unlucky breaks get a premature disqualification? or is there only one possible answer? seems kindof rigidly unlikely.
if they weren't worth a damn anymore, the US military really wouldn't bother spending all that money and then relying on it to save human lives.
the dogs used in the military train a ton, and are constantly being proofed by use in actual combat and yet they last for extensive careers but they don't just do long send offs and constant runs at decoys in and out for months at a time--there is the realization that dogs are soldiers who need balance, too. probably why they last so long, moreso than having the magic pedigree? or does the need for rest and reason only mean they aren't good dogs and the breed is no longer a good breed?
that seems dismissive, too.

then again, i am an unabashed fan of German Shepherds, most especially mine, and she's kind of a mess...ask anyone who owns a dog in my town that we've ever met. doesn't matter, she is a flawless family dog, a super spry and glossy animal who can herd ducks--a little-- and scale walls and hop obstacles and keep a herding breed's eye on my kid and is the smartest dog i've ever had the good fortune to meet. when she turns two we will get our OFA xrays, but only because i just want to know--the breed has lots of troubles, but any breed that gets popular gets those, too.


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## Catherine Gervin

INCIDENTALLY i must proffer the most sad news that the lovely article about that crazy dog and him getting the Medal of Honor isn't true at all. they guy who sent it to me--who works professionally with dogs--is going to be crushed when i forward him the sad news. sorry i weighed him into my longlong argument, even sorrier that it isn't true...well, there that is.


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## Dave Colborn

I appreciate your enthusiasm for working dogs.





Catherine Gervin said:


> INCIDENTALLY i must proffer the most sad news that the lovely article about that crazy dog and him getting the Medal of Honor isn't true at all. they guy who sent it to me--who works professionally with dogs--is going to be crushed when i forward him the sad news. sorry i weighed him into my longlong argument, even sorrier that it isn't true...well, there that is.


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## susan tuck

Catherine Gervin said:


> o.k., "pull off" in thought to the animal that takes repetitive physical trauma on as part of it's function as humans see it...and i guess your stance is that GSDs who fall apart do so because their genetic make up is inferior and i'm musing aloud that maybe there are badly-bred dogs who can't take the work because they are flawed on a skeletal level and then maybe there are also good dogs who break down because they are just ground down. as for race horses that is exactly what happens many many times because their workload is too demanding for a young, developing animal. the lucky ones who do well get a higher level of care from the moment they become lucrative enough to warrant it and suddenly you find an adult animal who achieves a healthy body because it was there all along, it just got worked into trouble.
> is it not plausible to think that unlucky breaks get a premature disqualification? or is there only one possible answer? seems kindof rigidly unlikely.
> if they weren't worth a damn anymore, the US military really wouldn't bother spending all that money and then relying on it to save human lives.
> the dogs used in the military train a ton, and are constantly being proofed by use in actual combat and yet they last for extensive careers but they don't just do long send offs and constant runs at decoys in and out for months at a time--there is the realization that dogs are soldiers who need balance, too. probably why they last so long, moreso than having the magic pedigree? or does the need for rest and reason only mean they aren't good dogs and the breed is no longer a good breed?
> that seems dismissive, too.
> 
> then again, i am an unabashed fan of German Shepherds, most especially mine, and she's kind of a mess...ask anyone who owns a dog in my town that we've ever met. doesn't matter, she is a flawless family dog, a super spry and glossy animal who can herd ducks--a little-- and scale walls and hop obstacles and keep a herding breed's eye on my kid and is the smartest dog i've ever had the good fortune to meet. when she turns two we will get our OFA xrays, but only because i just want to know--the breed has lots of troubles, but any breed that gets popular gets those, too.


It's not my "stance" Catherine, the breed has serious health issues. Or do you not think the issues I listed are serious?

I'm a fan of the breed too, Catherine, I've had working line GSDs since 1980, and still do. As much of a fan as I am, I sure don't look through rose colored glasses, the breed has issues. 

Popularity has less than nothing to do with it, since working lines aren't popular, and besides, that would be a piss poor excuse for accepting genetic issues in a working breed anyway.

I don't believe they last for "extensive" careers as a rule, in fact that's one of the reasons so many in military and police are turning away from GSDs and towards Malinois. It has nothing to do with "rest and reason" it has everything to do with being able to hold up to normal wear and tear for a working/sport dog. 

Finally Catherine I don't know where you get your ideas about sport, but I promise you, I've been involved for quite a number of years and have yet to see anyone who knows what they're doing or any good club, ruin good dogs by spending their time "just do long send offs and constant runs at decoys in and out for months at a time"

That's almost funny.


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## Katie Finlay

susan tuck said:


> It's not my "stance" Catherine, the breed has serious health issues. Or do you not think the issues I listed are serious?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a fan of the breed too, Catherine, I've had working line GSDs since 1980, and still do. As much of a fan as I am, I sure don't look through rose colored glasses, the breed has issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Popularity has less than nothing to do with it, since working lines aren't popular, and besides, that would be a piss poor excuse for accepting genetic issues in a working breed anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe they last for "extensive" careers as a rule, in fact that's one of the reasons so many in military and police are turning away from GSDs and towards Malinois. It has nothing to do with "rest and reason" it has everything to do with being able to hold up to normal wear and tear for a working/sport dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally Catherine I don't know where you get your ideas about sport, but I promise you, I've been involved for quite a number of years and have yet to see anyone who knows what they're doing or any good club, ruin good dogs by spending their time "just do long send offs and constant runs at decoys in and out for months at a time"
> 
> 
> 
> That's almost funny.



This is why we're friends, Susan


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## Katie Finlay

susan tuck said:


> Forgot to include hip dysplasia; elbow dysplasia; GDV; IBD and allergy issues on the list



And Pannus, EPI, PRA, hemophilia, vWD, pano, epilepsy...


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald

Once I would have said no to this question. 

Not any more. I think our preoccupation with pedigree before purpose is costing us dearly, more here in Auss than most places. Here purpose is almost a lost concept and plays out in the communities attitudes to dogs as well. 
I hope the U.S. can avoid the same mistakes. 

Accepting purpose BEFORE pedigree has been the best thing I ever did for myself, and my dogs.

Most people don't see how fast our breeds are deteriorating until they haved lived through several generations of their dogs.

The dogs I have today, I have the same expectations of reliability I expected 40 years ago.


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## Bob Scott

I would do it only if it could improve health issues. 
My older GSD (10) was Xrayed at two with Moderate HD. That didn't show up untill the past yr, yr and a half along with being diagnosed with EPI at 9. He's really slowed down in the past yr or so. Dog houses will get Hound Heaters this winter. 
STILL the absolute best dog I've ever owned but I doubt a GSD will be on my list after the two I have now are gone. I think they are fantastic BUT!
Probably back to the crazy little bassids....if the GSDs don't outlive me. 8-[ :grin:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I can't believe i started this thread ....lol](*,)


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## Catherine Gervin

susan tuck said:


> It's not my "stance" Catherine, the breed has serious health issues. Or do you not think the issues I listed are serious?
> not what i'm trying to imply--the breed has some of the worst health concerns outside of the English Bulldog
> 
> I'm a fan of the breed too, Catherine, I've had working line GSDs since 1980, and still do. As much of a fan as I am, I sure don't look through rose colored glasses, the breed has issues.
> 
> Popularity has less than nothing to do with it, since working lines aren't popular, and besides, that would be a piss poor excuse for accepting genetic issues in a working breed anyway.--i disagree with all of this. there are so many available working line GSDs available for sale that it's like looking for a Volkswagen dealership and the popularity of a breed--and even lines within a breed--directly lead to unscrupulous breeding, excessive exhaustion of good lines as they get watered down by being crossed with mediocre animals, and even hurts those doing everything the decent, legitimate way by saturating the marketplace with less expensive specimens. as in, put a dog in a movie and watch what happens to his breed. do i think this something that should be acceptable, i just think it is more than relevant. is it a piss-poor reason to deplete what was once the standard of excellence in a utilitarian dog? absolutely.
> 
> I don't believe they last for "extensive" careers as a rule, in fact that's one of the reasons so many in military and police are turning away from GSDs and towards Malinois. It has nothing to do with "rest and reason" it has everything to do with being able to hold up to normal wear and tear for a working/sport dog. --this too i just have no personal experience with, though lots of the K9s on cop t.v. shows are now Mals. none the less, all the dogs being trained and passing through during their deployment in Kandahar during the 13 months my husband was there were GSDs and all the dogs currently being trained at the base where my husband works for the DOD are, too.
> not exactly on the clearance aisle just yet.
> 
> Finally Catherine I don't know where you get your ideas about sport, but I promise you, I've been involved for quite a number of years and have yet to see anyone who knows what they're doing or any good club, ruin good dogs by spending their time "just do long send offs and constant runs at decoys in and out for months at a time"
> 
> That's almost funny.


this was not to imply that i consider that to be the plan in mind for dogs training to compete in sport, it just was what happened to a dog i knew and liked. 
also, i guess i misunderstood what the fear was of having one's dog caught incorrectly and therefor "jammed"? thought that was based on seeking to avoid injury? spinal injuries=bad and possibly life-changing?


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## Catherine Gervin

also, i didn't do the "respond to various parts of someone's comment with a comment of my own" thing correctly so i wrote my stuff into your response that i was trying to quote and then refute. only the last part seemed to do what i wanted--sorry about that.


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