# Herding Instinct vs. Prey Drive



## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm sure this is a noob question so please hold the gunfire. 

What's the 'actual' difference between HI and PD?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Fast, simple explanation.
Prey is simply the desire to chase.
HI involves a dog that wants to gather the stock, contain the stock and drive the stock.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Fast, simple explanation.
> Prey is simply the desire to chase.
> HI involves a dog that wants to gather the stock, contain the stock and drive the stock.


So a prey dog would stop when the stock stops running and the herding dog would continue to drive them regardless of their movement or nonmovement? Makes sense to me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its also one of those questions thats complex enough to take volumes. The short version is that when testing a potential herding dog, I'm looking for gather group instinct, heading, and what we call balance. This type of dog is trying to keep all the stock grouped as unit and he will adjust his movements to keep them grouped. He also goes to the heads to get control. Group, balance, heading are like bare minimum traits I'm looking for. Then there are the expanded traits like rate, reading the pressure on the outrun, guard, confidence with combative stock, etc. Some prey drive is necessary in herding dogs. However there are dogs that are simply prey/chase and those are unsuitable for herding. If you look at the hunt sequence you will see eye/stalk, gather as a part of the sequence. The end of the sequence is kill. That's been bred out of herding dogs. Pointers were bred into BCs to get exaggerated eye/stalk. I've worked a golden retriever that was great at gathering and keeping the stock together. While there are a lot of things you can mechanically/obedience train, a lot of us are highly dependent on instinctual traits with the kind of stock work we do. The best thing for you to do is to find a trainer that is open to testing an off breed where you can see the dog's instinctual approach to livestock.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> So a prey dog would stop when the stock stops running and the herding dog would continue to drive them regardless of their movement or nonmovement? Makes sense to me.


No, a prey dog isn't just triggered by movement. Even non-moving stock can incite prey drive in a dog. The herding dog has a job and that job isn't defined by whether the stock is moving or not moving. Herding dogs are used to make motion or stop motion.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jackie Lockard said:


> So a prey dog would stop when the stock stops running and the herding dog would continue to drive them regardless of their movement or nonmovement? Makes sense to me.



What T said! I saw you on line T. figured you'd explain it tons better.  
Whether the dog stops or not is dependent on what the goal is. Is it trying to pen the stock, bring them to you, drive them to another area?

When T tested my GSDs the very first thing they did was to go around the stock and move them back to me. That's HI. If they just ran out and chased the stock around the ring it would be just prey.
Some dogs are better at gathering, some at containment, some at driving.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> When T tested my GSDs the very first thing they did was to go around the stock and move them back to me. That's HI. If they just ran out and chased the stock around the ring it would be just prey. Some dogs are better at gathering, some at containment, some at driving.


Ok, I understand a lot better now. I figured it would be a worm can question. I didn't mean that a prey dog would go completely dead without movement, but ignorant as to exactly where the line was drawn.

Part two - So the handler's job with a herding dog (saying, one whose own goal would be to bring stock to handler) is to control the dog's movements in order to drive stock into where ever they needed to be?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

No, the dog's job is to control the stock's movement so that they go towards the handler. That's part of the instinctual package. Some people approach it with mechanically placing the dog but that's not my version. All Bob did was stand there. His dogs gathered the sheep and held them too him. No commands. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Ok, I understand a lot better now. I figured it would be a worm can question. I didn't mean that a prey dog would go completely dead without movement, but ignorant as to exactly where the line was drawn.
> 
> Part two - So the handler's job with a herding dog (saying, one whose own goal would be to bring stock to handler) is to control the dog's movements in order to drive stock into where ever they needed to be?


In so many words, yes...but! 
There's where the different instincts sometimes have to be worked with. A natural gathering dog may need guidance on driving. If the instincts are there it can come easily for the dog. 
If you see a herding trial you'll see many dogs that are doing the job only because they are being "told" where to be at a given time. It doesn't take long before you can see the dogs that are working on instinct with the handler's guidance and not just being a mechanical placement dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, the dog's job is to control the stock's movement so that they go towards the handler. That's part of the instinctual package. Some people approach it with mechanically placing the dog but that's not my version. All Bob did was stand there. His dogs gathered the sheep and held them too him. No commands.
> 
> T



And don't fall down. A good gathering dog just may keep the stock right on top of you. 8-[ 8-[ :-\"


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I think I need to go to more trials.  Excusing the dogs that showed no inclination to have anything to do with the sheep, there seemed to be two kinds of handlers that I saw. Ones constantly yelling at their dogs to stop (no control/obedience), and then the ones giving their dogs direction. There was one border collie that was just amazing and even I could see the instinct, along with working with the handler's direction.

There were a couple impressive teams, but most seemed to either be complete prey (I suppose?) with little control or the obedience mechanical dogs. This was an AKC trial so I have no idea if different trials are set up with different tests or anything.

I want to get my Malinois tested and possibly do this as a sport with him. It sounds pretty fun and a lot more in depth than what I pulled from that one trial.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Herding trials are no different then any other dog competition. You'll see the few 'cream of the crop" at the top. The teams that do a nice job because they enjoy doing it and have trained well and also (majority) that are there because it's fun. Doesn't mean they or their dog's have a clue. 
Kudos to all of them!


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> There were a couple impressive teams, but most seemed to either be complete prey (I suppose?) with little control or the obedience mechanical dogs. This was an AKC trial so I have no idea if different trials are set up with different tests or anything.
> 
> I want to get my Malinois tested and possibly do this as a sport with him. It sounds pretty fun and a lot more in depth than what I pulled from that one trial.


The AKC A course takes a lot of control, esp if the arena is small and the sheep are light (move easily and quickly off the dog/person or even fence)  It puts tons of pressure on the dog and the handler too;-)

If you could make it out to NJ, you would see a completely different type of herding. I do not know if any Mals have earned HGH...but wouldn't it be great to be one of, if not the, first to do it!

Geary has an open door policy at the farm. If you can arrange to get out there, he tends his sheep on a daily basis to feed them. So, you don't necessarily need to wait for the trial to see a dog in action:grin:

But be warned..when the herding bug bites...it bites hard ...LOL


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I sort of doubt the Malinois I have now has potential for herding but I suppose you never know until you try. He's pretty goofy and likes to spazz a lot. No idea if he'd be too busy running around and having fun to even notice any sheep.

I will have to contact Geary. Over two hours driving is going to be somewhat pressing on me right now during the winter but I'd like to go out if nothing else then to watch. I just like getting out and seeing what my dogs and I can do together.

Doubt I'll be leaving Schutzhund for good anytime soon though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

you can have a dog with great prey drive that has ZERO herding instincts..

I dont think anyone wants a herding dog that views the stock as prey...

IE an american bulldog, that grabs the stock and holds it...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> you can have a dog with great prey drive that has ZERO herding instincts..
> 
> I dont think anyone wants a herding dog that views the stock as prey...
> 
> IE an american bulldog, that grabs the stock and holds it...



I think that's okay as long is it will release and pile all the stock in one place. I am pretty sure that's how babe the pig did it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> you can have a dog with great prey drive that has ZERO herding instincts..
> 
> ...


True. That's what saves my bouv. While she has a prey trigger button, she has instinct, stock sense and analysis to burn. AKC and light sheep can be a obedience placement game. Handlers screaming lie down are dealing with the keen reactive dogs that want CONTROL of the livestock. For instance, trialed on ducks this last weekend. Ducks had no respect for the dog and would go toward the dog or try running past one down field if the dog pressured them at all. One of my club members [Joyce] put her BC on down and with the dog staring at it the duck ran up his head. Same set worked for Khira to a point with her giving them the evil eye. Then it blew to hell when duckie decided to run over her and she had it hanging from her beard and me saying drop it. No, she didn't hurt it but she's not going to let any stock run over her. Even though I called my run, I didn't really begrudge her that one. We would never allow a duck to get away with that at home. Except for that slip for all three runs she didn't put a paw down wrong. I actually provided ducks for the test class for this trial and Khira trained then to go where the dog tells them to go. Ducks take a lot of precision and control work and aren't as forgiving as some sheep. If you want to see more realistic work, try to get to an AHBA ranch trial. AKC A Course isn't going to give the total picture on herding. There can be a great divide between trial work and real farm work with trial herding champions that couldn't work a working farm at all. You have to keep it all in perspective. I play at the sport but for my personal dogs, they have to be capable of whats involved in the farm work.

T


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> IE an american bulldog, that grabs the stock and holds it...


 This reminds me of a cowboy friend that was working on a ranch that used various stock dogs. The rancher kept insisting that he had the greatest cow dog ever. They were working in the yards, sorting etc, all of the other dogs were working pushing and moving the cattle. The GREAT dog was asleep under a tree, he didn't even raise his head in all of the commotion. The dog was 1/2 cattle dog 1/2 Pit, or AM Staff.

They saddled up and the dog jumped onto the back of the horse...my friend thought "what kind of crap is this dog" Then they came upon a group of steers. One big steer kept breaking off...then the dog was sent after him. The dog caught up and jumped and bit on the shoulder...and hung on through all the bucking and bellowing , the steer finally stopped. The rancher had to get off his horse and knock the dog off with a stick! Once he was knocked off...he jumped back onto the horse. But that steer decided it was best to stay with everyone else. 

The rancher said to my friend "see, he is a great cow dog" 

So it really depends on your particular needs ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

in a practical herding sense people worry too much about what the dog does / is and forget the most important part of the transaction; training the cattle/stock. 

a few hours with weaners sets them up for life to be moved without stress and avoids all the pointless running around you see too often by the incompetent. 

a stock dog handler that doesn't address this aspect of training is without a clue and shouldn't be working dogs.

very few operations in the world should be needing a stock dog that bites, i mean who here has ever had to gather stock that are 3 + generations that have never seen a human and live in rough terrain/vegetation without any boundary fences within hundreds of miles.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> in a practical herding sense people worry too much about what the dog does / is and forget the most important part of the transaction; training the cattle/stock.
> 
> a few hours with weaners sets them up for life to be moved without stress and avoids all the pointless running around you see too often by the incompetent.
> 
> ...


Stock can get soured by any number of means. 

For example...our 13 1/2 sections are State Lease land. This is not public land, but, the majority of people believe it is their right to be on the land. Some of these people think it is great fun to "chase" the cattle and/or horses with their quads. So the stock is soured...not by our poor handling, but by the idiots on quads. So yes we do need a dog that will bite...that is if we want them all to get gathered. If it is no big deal to lose a couple that cut and run, then I guess we don't need dogs at all.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think that's okay as long is it will release and pile all the stock in one place. I am pretty sure that's how babe the pig did it.


A buddy of mine has a great GSD...It got out of its enclosure on the property and killed almost all his geese and chickens.(15+)...put em all in nice pile in front of his door ....Dog was pretty proud of his accomplishment, my friend was not all that happy about it...

Kellie..I went to look at a Rottweiler stud once and the guy was telling me about his bullterrier...told me to come out and see him...he was gone...so we walked over to the other side of the property...

The dog was hanging off of his neighbor's Bull's nose...Bull was shipping all around....

He said man "so and so" is gonna be pissed at me...(this evidently was not the first time)...

I asked him how he gets the dog back, he said...after a while that bull will lay down, and the dog will come home....

it was funny, but not funny....


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

OK, didn't factor in human stupidity - that makes it a harder problem.

what is wrong with people - we get idiots that shoot holes in water tanks which are the only supply of water for stock, people that maim stock and set their pig dogs on to them just to put a vid on u-tube.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

From my perspective I like to start with a dog with good instincts. I like to see the parents working on a farm and get a feel for the natural traits they have with regard to herding.

With a good dog the main purpose of the handler is not to teach the dog how to herd but to put in place the commands that in conjunction with the dogs natural instinct and intelligence will help give the dog a good sense of purpose.

The concept of purpose is really important in farm work, the dog needs to be able to work often independently of the handler and make good decisions (brainy stockwork).

If you have to mechanically teach your dog these things because he lacks the instinct the dog will generally fall apart under pressure or working independently if the handler is not there to give the commands. The dog needs to be able to read the stock and understand what the task is.

I dont look at it anymore as prey drive, I look it as carefully bred set of traits to give you a dog with the inherited skills to work stock. My cattle dog has intense prey drive and I dont let her anywhere near my sheep thank you.

Sometimes if a dog is overly keen like my young BC you can sometimes shout but fortunately that has become less as he and I have gained in expereince. He has a great obedience stop but when faced with stock his instincts kick in and we have had to work on control. 

The trick was not to stop him in inappropriate positions in relation to the stock, which meant I also had to be reading the stock and anticipating what the dog was thinking. A dog with a natural inherited stop is always usefull as is a dog with a calm temperament around stock. Calm doesnt mean weak. Quite the opposiste in a lot of cases.

As my dogs work for me on my farm, training stock is also important. I am currently working a few times a week with some very undog broke ewes and their lambs. My young BC has the goods to handle a charging ewe but the key has been to work them very calmly and slowly and they have gradually stopped charging as they have realised we are working calmy and no one is hurting their lambs. 

I am pleased to see the penny starting to drop with my young BC and without any commands from me he is starting to place himself where he needs to be with these ewes to keep them calm, so he is reading his stock, independent of me and developing a sense of purpose. 

Lots of fun and for me it is doubly important as I depend on my dogs to help me manage my sheep.

There is so much to learn about reading stock, dogs, the dogs inherited capacity and the interaction between dog, sheep and you. My dogs are all different and I have to be aware of this when I work them.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> He said man "so and so" is gonna be pissed at me...(this evidently was not the first time)...
> 
> I asked him how he gets the dog back, he said...after a while that bull will lay down, and the dog will come home....
> 
> it was funny, but not funny....


The conversation explaining how the bull's nose get all tore up would have been good watching


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> OK, didn't factor in human stupidity - that makes it a harder problem.
> 
> what is wrong with people - we get idiots that shoot holes in water tanks which are the only supply of water for stock, people that maim stock and set their pig dogs on to them just to put a vid on u-tube.


Yes, we have those same problems and add fence cutting because they are too lazy to actually get off their quads and open the gate. We actually have had the gates cut...it is unbelievable...but not really related to this thread, so I will quit my ranting...LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> The conversation explaining how the bull's nose get all tore up would have been good watching


Or after he shoots the dog which is his right. One of my herding friends was telling me about a catch dog and a bull. Dog wouldn't let go. Bull was frantic and couldn't see. Went straight toward a tree flinging dog around. Dog hit tree and it killed him.

Agree with Peter on the livestock training and management. Lots of discussion around here regarding that and stock need to be managed by more than just one breed/style of dog and learn to honor the dog's pressure.

Even in training, you shouldn't go into it with the idea of "dog having fun chasing sheep around." It should be set up to avoid any chase.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

apologies if this is a sub-topic but the few conversations i have with triallers AKC (puke) style is that they do not want t dog with lots of instinct, they in fact look for a dog with high biddabilty exclusively.

in effect they want to work a dog with command over instinct, read that as place the dog in postion - the presence of stock is incidental as the dog is totally handler focussed awaiting support through commnands. 

these handlers are at the top rank of competition and typically don't herd stock in a practical sense and live in cities. in fact there is no way they would allow there comp dogs to herd in the field.

these successful handlers are experts at giving commands without the judges particular notice. they are good handlers.

not surprisngly i have never met one that would work a Kelpie - all straight BC.

breeders are of course taking notice of their clients needs and practical people feel this a real problem for the long term quality of their breeds, the general rule is that it only takes 2 - 4 generations to lose what you have built over many generations (read that as 30-40 + years) or more.

and yes this style of dog manifests itself as high in prey - i equate it to mal breeders that are fixed on breeding reactive to reactive over and over - of course noone left takes the mal as a contender for their original purpose ie a herder anymore - the reactive reactive thing may have some interesting consequences in the future and i don't guess they will be good for the working ability of the mal.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Agree with Peter on the livestock training and management. Lots of discussion around here regarding that and stock need to be managed by more than just one breed/style of dog and learn to honor the dog's pressure.
> 
> Even in training, you shouldn't go into it with the idea of "dog having fun chasing sheep around." It should be set up to avoid any chase.
> 
> T


Yes to livestock training but remained totally unconvinced that you need more than one breed of dog. 

Round here my neighbours on either side of me have no more than 2 or 3 good utility kelpies and manage upward of several thousand sheep on 10-15,000 acre farms. They perform in the paddocks and yards, gathering and driving with no fuss. Nothing like a good hardworking kelpie LOL


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> in effect they want to work a dog with command over instinct, read that as place the dog in postion - the presence of stock is incidental as the dog is totally handler focussed awaiting support through commnands.
> 
> these handlers are at the top rank of competition and typically don't herd stock in a practical sense and live in cities. in fact there is no way they would allow there comp dogs to herd in the field.
> 
> these successful handlers are experts at giving commands without the judges particular notice. they are good handlers.


I noticed. The trial was pretty confusing to start with, and then I picked up a little by watching advanced handlers that were obviously having more successful runs. But I believe I probably still came away with the equivalent of a person watching obedience believing that no dog can heel without a hand affixed to a belt. Just my uneducated (but hopefully common sense) opinion. Very few dogs seemed to have what I would have called herding instinct and a few just seemed to want to chase (mostly Shelties). Some of the dogs seemed to not care at all and were just being placed in key spots. It's a stark contrast to the video I watched of the HGH. It makes me even more eager to try my dogs.

Funny at the trial I had made a comment about how they go about training stock? They seemed to be trained to play their own role (staying by handler, moving to fence, going to gate, ect). It looked pretty important.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> I noticed. The trial was pretty confusing to start with, and then I picked up a little by watching advanced handlers that were obviously having more successful runs. But I believe I probably still came away with the equivalent of a person watching obedience believing that no dog can heel without a hand affixed to a belt. Just my uneducated (but hopefully common sense) opinion. Very few dogs seemed to have what I would have called herding instinct and a few just seemed to want to chase (mostly Shelties). Some of the dogs seemed to not care at all and were just being placed in key spots. It's a stark contrast to the video I watched of the HGH. It makes me even more eager to try my dogs.
> 
> Funny at the trial I had made a comment about how they go about training stock? They seemed to be trained to play their own role (staying by handler, moving to fence, going to gate, ect). It looked pretty important.



There is a difference between honest stock that has been managed by dogs and people and course trained stock for trials. With HGH videos, I see a lot of dogs running on prey drive and not displaying what I call stock sense. C Course can get you course trained stock and positioned trained dogs as well. You have to keep it all in perspective and know what to look for.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes to livestock training but remained totally unconvinced that you need more than one breed of dog.
> 
> Round here my neighbours on either side of me have no more than 2 or 3 good utility kelpies and manage upward of several thousand sheep on 10-15,000 acre farms. They perform in the paddocks and yards, gathering and driving with no fuss. Nothing like a good hardworking kelpie LOL


Surprise, surprise. Yet you don't run a 10-15,000 sheep station and your kelpie isn't of that caliber and you work a BC. Most of us have listened to the there is only one breed, one dog line from BC folks for years Sara. 

T


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Surprise, surprise. Yet you don't run a 10-15,000 sheep station and your kelpie isn't of that caliber and you work a BC. Most of us have listened to the there is only one breed, one dog line from BC folks for years Sara.
> 
> T


 Wow ..that was a bit harsh. 

What I read was Sara saying you don't need a different dog for every task ie paddock/gathering vs yard work. She was not saying that there is only one breed of dog that is useful. Besides that many, many people have a breed preference...so what? 

I have worked my Beaucerons and suffered the rolling eyes and the snickering...I even had people ask me when my run was, so they could watch my dog kill a sheep ](*,)So , all of us with "off" breeds get weary of that mentality... but I always get the last laugh when my dog works nicely ...that shuts their snickering up pretty quickly ;-)


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> and yes this style of dog manifests itself as high in prey - i equate it to mal breeders that are fixed on breeding reactive to reactive over and over - of course noone left takes the mal as a contender for their original purpose ie a herder anymore - the reactive reactive thing may have some interesting consequences in the future and i don't guess they will be good for the working ability of the mal.


I don't know if you meant this or not, it's not clear in your post, but I don't think the "reactive to reactive" type breeding some Mal breeders do is in any way related to how many Malinois are being used for herding. The use of Malinois as a herding dog was already in decline before the breed was officially a breed, because the need for them as a herding dog was in decline.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You have to keep it all in perspective and know what to look for.
> 
> T


I don't! Trying to figure it out though. The one specific video I can recall (HGH) had the dog flanking (wrong term?) on both sides of the herd, but it wasn't entirely circling. It looked as if the dog was checking to make sure everyone was staying together. Herding right? I have no idea what exactly the dog should be doing (or even what the trial consists of), so I could be way off. I also didn't watch the entire video.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Wow ..that was a bit harsh.
> 
> What I read was Sara saying you don't need a different dog for every task ie paddock/gathering vs yard work. She was not saying that there is only one breed of dog that is useful. Besides that many, many people have a breed preference...so what?
> 
> I have worked my Beaucerons and suffered the rolling eyes and the snickering...I even had people ask me when my run was, so they could watch my dog kill a sheep ](*,)So , all of us with "off" breeds get weary of that mentality... but I always get the last laugh when my dog works nicely ...that shuts their snickering up pretty quickly ;-)


Thats okay LOL. Yes I was saying that, my neighbours have kelpies that handle everything quite nicely. 

As to me I have 200 sheep on 1000 acres some of which my neighbours crops so small by comparison. My kelpie I took on because she wasnt shaping up for a farmer as a sheepdog and I was looking for an agility prospect, but she is starting to surprise me, I had her on my ewes and lambs yesterday so I think we might get there. My BC is good and handles everything I need I guess as a shepdog.

My favourite dogs are cattle dogs and if I had the right type of stock I would love to work them, but in reality my BC and my upcoming Koolie are better on sheep. 

I am not opposed to other types of breeds if it fits your system and always enjoy something different doing well at a trial.

Kelpies and BCs just suit our system best.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> I have worked my Beaucerons and suffered the rolling eyes and the snickering...I even had people ask me when my run was, so they could watch my dog kill a sheep ](*,)So , all of us with "off" breeds get weary of that mentality... but I always get the last laugh when my dog works nicely ...that shuts their snickering up pretty quickly ;-)


Kellie that is very unlikely to happen here. Our trialing system is such that the dog has to be registered with the working sheep dog association either by merit or birth and nobody expects a trialing dog to kill a sheep regardless of breed. Any dog and handler that competes regardless of breed is given encouragement by our trialing community.

Watching the last sheepdog trials my favourite was a dog that resembled a racoon, I have no idea what breed mix it was although it did have a cattle dog type body. There was also a Smithfield running and the announcer went at lengths to talk about the breed. Both dogs were excellent. True I have never seen breeds like GSDS, Mals or Beaucerons at any of these trials but the trailing community here wouldnt care if the work was good quality.

Fact is most of the trialers are sheep farmers and the majority have kelpies, BCs and mixes thereof. Koolies are pretty uncommon at trials as they are known as good farm dogs but perhaps not as suited to trialing. BCs tend to predominate in 3 sheep trials.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I train at Geary's - our HGH trial is next Saturday (the 15th) if you want to see several different dogs in action.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

And I am not sure which video you were watching of the dog moving the sheep, but the purpose of going down the sides of the flock is to keep the flock moving. With a large flock, circling around the back is not going to keep the front moving if the sheep don't want to move, so the whole flock can just bunch up and stand there while the dog runs circles around them. But if the dog puts pressure on the sides, it keeps them moving. That would be herding instinct and some dogs naturally will work the sides and others want to circle and have to be taught to work the sides. Prey drive would be if a sheep splits away from the flock and the dog starts running around chasing it even further away. I have had that happen with my dog - she has a lot of prey drive but also nice herding drives, so once she learned that she is not supposed to chase individual sheep around, she got the idea. She will chase them back into the flock, but sometimes lambs will panic and just bolt and she's learned to leave them when told and they will join the flock on their own.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Surprise, surprise. Yet you don't run a 10-15,000 sheep station and your kelpie isn't of that caliber and you work a BC. Most of us have listened to the there is only one breed, one dog line from BC folks for years Sara.
> 
> T


I can see how my post might have read. Kellie was right in the interpretation - I believe that a good utility dog should be able to handle all the tasks. There are dogs that are better at paddock work or yard work but there are plenty of quality dogs that will handle both well. I have seen them many times and they are preferred by sheep farmers who will pay money for them. They dont want to have a stack of dogs particularly as the fortunes of livestock can plummet with the droughts. 

My expereince is with kelpies and BCs and I know they can do it. My own BC comes from top utility dogs working on a 10,000 sheep farm. If anything is going to make him not such a good dog it is me.

If other breeds are just as capable and fit a sytem that is good. I can only make assessments from what I see in a long association with wheat and sheep farming in Australia.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Meghan Rabon said:


> I train at Geary's - our HGH trial is next Saturday (the 15th) if you want to see several different dogs in action.



Meghan are you trialing? If so, good luck. I remember your training videos. If you have any video of the trial, please post.


Terrasita


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

Yes we will be trialing - I will post video if I can get any. I do have some videos from this summer that I don't think I posted on here, I can check and post them if you'd like to see.
Kessy has come along really well, she is a joy to work, hopefully I don't get nervous and do something dumb on Saturday!


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