# Crossroads



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

It seems that everyone has different views of what a PSD, PPD, and a SPORT DOG should be. At what point in the dogs training is this desicion made and what makes your decision? How many actually believe that one dog can accomplish and be all three of these?

What makes you think that a PSD could not be a sport dog or vice versa?

In a PPD how many feel the need to put alot of defense in a dog to show that they have a strong PPD? And why? 

Do you think that you can have a good PPD in which his training has been built primarily on prey?

And last what are the main differences in all three? Or are there much?

After seeing all of the different point of views on this board I thought it would be neat to get to the core of this never ending arguement.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

In Europe many of our sports colleagues are policemen - they come with their pups to train with us. It's clear, after a certain stage, the police dogs enter into a different training. We all buy (if we want) from the same breeders as a rule. The dogs often carry similar genetics but are channeled differently in the end. A lot of policemen are our helpers. Shucks - I love 'em. The ones I don't like are those who stop us at Midnight and peer through the windosws to say "Have we had something to drink":mrgreen: 

On the positive side, the info exchange is very, very valuable. I think that we sport dog handlers are the ones who understand the police work the best and vice versa.

What we don't have in any great number is PPDs. I have always had dogs that would act as deterrents. Heaven forbid they would act otherwise - I wouldn't have a peaceful moment. I've had Landseer, Fila Brasileiro, Briard and now two GSDs of which one has to receive clear commands when visitors arrive otherwise he would "forbid" them to enter the "holy grounds".

With the excpetion of the Briard and, partly, the younger GSD, my life has been spent trying to avoid civil bites.

I think it's a lot to do with give and take.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> It seems that everyone has different views of what a PSD, PPD, and a SPORT DOG should be. At what point in the dogs training is this desicion made and what makes your decision? How many actually believe that one dog can accomplish and be all three of these?


I am still a newbie in my mind...I've only been actively competing the last 3 years...but here is my take. 

I believe that every dog has a turning point in training......and that will determine whether you and the trainer feels that the dog can go into a different venue other than the one you've been training for. 

I believe that there are dogs capable of doing all 3 but they are few and far between....I DO believe that there are MANY dogs that could do PPD and Sports though. 



jay lyda said:


> What makes you think that a PSD could not be a sport dog or vice versa?


I think that there are few that could be sport dogs but that a PSD brings a lot more defensive drive to the table in my opinion..I've had limited access to them.....Not saying that it would be impossible to turn a PSD to a Sport dog just hard work. 




jay lyda said:


> In a PPD how many feel the need to put alot of defense in a dog to show that they have a strong PPD? And why?


I do not think that a LOT of defense is necessary to have their dog be a strong PPD. I think that IF a dog has what it takes they do.....if they don't they don't. 



jay lyda said:


> Do you think that you can have a good PPD in which his training has been built primarily on prey?


I feel that you can. I imagine that the training will be different than normal sport training and that a good trainer will build off what drives a dog has already. 



jay lyda said:


> And last what are the main differences in all three? Or are there much?


I thinl that there is a vast difference in all 3. The PSD's are out on the street to apprehend criminals and I think that they are tougher than the average sport dog. There are people who will come back with, "well, my sport dog could easily do what they do." BUT in the end your sport dogs are just that.....for sport....competition. They don't have the life or death expieriences that PSD's can have. 

A good strong PPD is much like a PSD in my opinion BUT they still don't have that edge as most PSD's have because of training styles and drives etc. 



jay lyda said:


> After seeing all of the different point of views on this board I thought it would be neat to get to the core of this never ending arguement.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What makes you think that a PSD could not be a sport dog or vice versa?

In a PPD how many feel the need to put alot of defense in a dog to show that they have a strong PPD? And why? 

Do you think that you can have a good PPD in which his training has been built primarily on prey?

And last what are the main differences in all three? Or are there much?


OK, my answer is that all this depends on the dog. A good dog can be OK in different things.

I think PPD people for the most part miss the whole point. It is the character of the dog, not the training. Training gets in the way of PP.

Way too many "Oh God I wish I was a cop" scenarios.

Bad training, good training, doesn't matter as much as what the dog is.

Let me find you the right dog, and you won't need to train.

The crazy training scenarios are just to make the PPD people feel better. THat is why there is so much defense used, so that insecure people can feel better.

Have I mentioned that I just se why you would bother ????? If your area that you live in is that scary, move.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> At what point in the dogs training is this desicion made and what makes your decision?


Depends on who owns the dog. Some dogs are selected at 8 weeks with a specific goal in mind, so the training is geared for that from the start. With other dogs the owner may realize as the training progresses that the dog would be better suited in another venue, alter the training accordingly and/or sell the dog to be worked in that venu. I think generally this decision has been made by the time the dog is 2, but sometimes it's later.



> How many actually believe that one dog can accomplish and be all three of these?


If it's a good dog, IMO it should be able to perform in any of the 3 venues, just depends on who owns it and how they focus the training. There are many effective PSDs and PPDs out there that were originally sport trained/titled then sold. I talk to people in Europe on a regular basis who's dogs have a day job as a police or security dog, and on evenings and weekends they are doing sport work. Mac was a K9 in the subways in France before I purchased him, it took some "toning down" (you are NOT allowed to bite the decoy's hand just because he reached for your leash, you are NOT allowed to go after someone just because we are walking through a crowd and they stumbled towards you, etc) but he's a sport dog now, and doing OK at it, hopefully going for his FRIII in Jan.



> What makes you think that a PSD could not be a sport dog or vice versa?


Depends on the dog. Like I said before I think a good dog can do any of the venues. However, some dogs are going to be better suited for one venue based on drives, character, etc. A dog with a strong civil side and only medium drives is probably going to be a better PPD then sport dog. Some dogs have what I call a very "sporty" personality, they will play a game all day long but just won't put their teeth into a person for real. You might be able to "reach" them in defense, but what you have to do to them to bring it out is just plain abuse. They can make a great sport dog but not a PPD or PSD. And some dogs are to into the biting for real, they can do sport work but the helper/decoy is constantly having to protect their exposed areas from cheap shots, this dog may be better suited for PPD or PSD work where they can utilize that civil side in a training program that is geared more towards it.



> In a PPD how many feel the need to put alot of defense in a dog to show that they have a strong PPD? And why?


I think a good PPD has to have a strong threat display on command. Without any help from the decoy. Most dogs will need some defense work put on them to teach them this behavior. Some seem to get it in just a session or two, some need a lot more sessions. I don't think this proves you have a "strong" PPD in terms of the dog being strong, but I do think it's neccessary to have a strong PPD in terms of a dog who is very capable of doing his job. The #1 job of a PPD is to be a deterrant, in the majority of situations (actual percentages will vary LOL) an alert dog with strong presence and the ability to show all their pearly whites will back down an potential perp. But the dog does have to be able to do it on command, in addition to a natural reaction, because not every perp is going to rush at you yelling, waving their arms, etc. Or come in sneaky, peering around corners. 



> Do you think that you can have a good PPD in which his training has been built primarily on prey?


If the dog will give the display I described above, yes. Most people aren't going to analize the drive the dog is in, all they see is a dog straining at the leash, barking, spit flying, teeth flashing, and thats enough for them. I do think in general though a more defensive based threat is more impressive looking.



> And last what are the main differences in all three? Or are there much?


I think I addressed this answering the other questions.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Good post Kadi.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jay nice post, I think it doesn't matter so much the venue that you are working in, it's all about the dog and genetics. Last week we had a Rottie come out for testing in PP work. It failed, no interest and it was from working lines, so the guy said. 

Then my crazy Bouvier puppy came out...dog from hell. Running, chasing, biting, and looking like a big old dog. Understand, I train her one day a week and she's 8 months old. If it isn't in the dog, it can't be trained to come out.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

It seems that in europe there is more of a crossover between sport and police k9. I think in this country police k9 officers think that sport dogs are not as good as their k9's. That all depends where the dog comes from. Hell, the NY troopers get their dogs from the pound and rescues, talk about shitters. Most of them are ass biters. I think alot of sport trained dogs could do either depending on the direction you train them. Doesn't Bernhard Flinks compete in schutzhund with his PSD


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I agree that it does depend on the dog first. So lets say we are past this point and we have a dog that we know will do the work and make a nice dog. If the dog is so nice then wouldn't be up to the trainer now to decide how it is trained and for what? Genetics will only take you so far, the dog is not going to do eveything because he has natural instincts, he has to be trained. So would you agree that it is up to the handlers and trainers that decide what the dog will be classified as PPD, Sport, or PSD? I may be off base here but wouldn't it be everyones objective to try and train their dog to be all three in one, if the dog will do it of course. Also it you decide to separate your training and classify your dog as only one, then give a description of the type or style of training that you do to ensure that he is what you say he is.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you have that dog, IF, and I say that because many people are a bit blind to what they have, are not cops, and have no reason to have a PPD.

That takes most of us out of that thought process.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you have that dog, IF, and I say that because many people are a bit blind to what they have, are not cops, and have no reason to have a PPD.


True, and these are the people who really don't understand how to read a dog and understand why its doing what its doing during different training exercises. Most people believe that since their dog will curl its lips, snarl, and raise cane during civil agitation have a PPD. Not always the case, its a conditioned response or just a real defensive dog. What would really happen if the shit hits the fan for real, I feel alot of people who have a "PPD" will be disappointed. My idea of a PPD is not just a fence dog who only looks scary.


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