# Starting OVER!!



## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

I am starting over from scratch to teach a great heel, any suggestions on how to begin this on a 14 month old?? Right from the beginning? Is it even possible?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

not possible. You should get a new dog and start over.

BUT if you really want to attempt it, I think the easiest way is with a pile of treats and the kitchen counters. Teach it as a sit and "watch me" exercise. Stand with just enough space for the dog to fit between you and the counters. He sits at your left side and looks at you...treat. Then start with a step and lure him with the food. Then take a step backwards. You're teaching the dog that he must remain in position and look at you. When you move he has to do whatever is necessary to stay in position and get to the next sit. It took me a few days to teach my Mal to do this. Now I can spin in circles and walk in any direction and he's right there with me.

Have fun.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think that re-teaching, is different than intial teaching...which I know worked for Chris's dog. But I almost guarntee that the minute the dog sees the old position the dog will go back to the old way. Especially if you lure. Once the food is faded, I guarntee the dog will start to push more ahead, to try and make you give a reward.

As for heeling...I would teach the dog to heel in-between my legs. I would reward for a certain mark on the dogs neck to be touching me. This may cause some crowding once you step over the dog and try to get the dog on the side. But you can deal with that later. Crowding is easier to cure than forging. in between the legs gives you the power to do a lot, and prevent a lot. you can keep the dog straight, the dog push out to far ahead can not see you. So this is almost self correcting. you can use the pressure of your legs to turn the dog...you can keep the dog straight if you want them to heel backwards. then when your finished...simply step over the dog, and start heeling with the dog next to you.

Also, forging is often caused by where you present the reward. I do not care if you use a marker or not...which many will claim this prevents. it does not, the dog will anticpate that a reward coming from the opposite side of your body and try to get one step ahead to get it. So be aware you are making the dog to get a reward.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Kat LaPlante said:


> I am starting over from scratch to teach a great heel, any suggestions on how to begin this on a 14 month old?? Right from the beginning? Is it even possible?


Hi Kat,

Here's a great visual video of teaching the heel between the legs. It gives the dog rear end awareness and teaches him/her to move with his head up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xx_e4S-vHM


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Kat,
> 
> Here's a great visual video of teaching the heel between the legs. It gives the dog rear end awareness and teaches him/her to move with his head up.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xx_e4S-vHM


 
How simple! I like it!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Kat,
> 
> Here's a great visual video of teaching the heel between the legs. It gives the dog rear end awareness and teaches him/her to move with his head up.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xx_e4S-vHM


Very nice!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And 100% unfair! Looks to me to be a Border Collie, smartest dog on the planet! =;


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Kat,
> 
> Here's a great visual video of teaching the heel between the legs. It gives the dog rear end awareness and teaches him/her to move with his head up.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xx_e4S-vHM


Thanks Candy, that was really cool and innovative.


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## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> And 100% unfair! Looks to me to be a Border Collie, smartest dog on the planet! =;


How about Mals"? Watch Knut Fuchs


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Imprinting is all fine and dandy, but if it isn't backed up later with compulsion it means nothing. I do get tired of all these 'top' trainers that keep skirting the issue of compulsion. (down right lying about it)
When I see a seminar where the trainer does 'feed til you bleed', but works totally different on her/his 
own home field (ie using the ecollar), I believe it is just dishonest. 
Anita


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> not possible. You should get a new dog and start over.
> 
> BUT if you really want to attempt it, I think the easiest way is with a pile of treats and the kitchen counters. Teach it as a sit and "watch me" exercise. Stand with just enough space for the dog to fit between you and the counters. He sits at your left side and looks at you...treat. Then start with a step and lure him with the food. Then take a step backwards. You're teaching the dog that he must remain in position and look at you. When you move he has to do whatever is necessary to stay in position and get to the next sit. It took me a few days to teach my Mal to do this. Now I can spin in circles and walk in any direction and he's right there with me.
> 
> Have fun.


Chris,
the vodeo makes the heel between the legs look easy....but the idea of the kitchen counters is familiar, what will be the most effective and can you try the two methods at the same time?


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Anita Griffing said:


> Imprinting is all fine and dandy, but if it isn't backed up later with compulsion it means nothing. I do get tired of all these 'top' trainers that keep skirting the issue of compulsion. (down right lying about it)
> When I see a seminar where the trainer does 'feed til you bleed', but works totally different on her/his
> own home field (ie using the ecollar), I believe it is just dishonest.
> Anita


 
What is the compulsion aspect?


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> What is the compulsion aspect?


The compulsion aspect (if I understand you  correctly) is that you must add correction/
compulsion to gain the finished competition team. IMO
AG


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> The compulsion aspect (if I understand you  correctly) is that you must add correction/
> compulsion to gain the finished competition team. IMO
> AG


 
John Wiitanen ( i can never spell that guys last name correct)..or Mohawk John, I have had the pleasure of being his training partner for about a year now. He just came in 8 th at the AWDF, 3rd at the mid-eastern regionals, and will be showing at AWMA natl's I have not seen him use any correction collars. So I have seen it been done. And his scores on every successive trial since doing his one...have only gone up.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Chris,
> the vodeo makes the heel between the legs look easy....but the idea of the kitchen counters is familiar, what will be the most effective and can you try the two methods at the same time?



I would start with what is most comfortable with you. I saw that video a long time ago but still trained the my Mal to heel the way I know best.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Good point! :lol:
> 
> I switched my avatar to another pack member. This is a breed whose members are often without a big _thinking_ or _brain_ burden. :lol:


 Should have used my mug shot!!!! :-$


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anita Griffing said:


> Imprinting is all fine and dandy, but if it isn't backed up later with compulsion it means nothing....


The problem with compulsion is that no one hears about MOTIVATIONAL. Kick the dog's a$$ and call it training. I just retired from teaching and IF every kid learned on the same level, the same way, with the same rewards...it would be a piece of cake. Compulsion is by some nothing more than a license to leave self control at the door and beat the hell out of the poor dog! Learn to get into the head, then learn to structure the lesson.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

James Downey said:


> John Wiitanen ( i can never spell that guys last name correct)..or Mohawk John, I have had the pleasure of being his training partner for about a year now. He just came in 8 th at the AWDF, 3rd at the mid-eastern regionals, and will be showing at AWMA natl's I have not seen him use any correction collars. So I have seen it been done. And his scores on every successive trial since doing his one...have only gone up.


Well good for him. Congrats to him for his success. My problem is a lot of people say this, but when you watch them train personally, it is not true. Or they do it behind the 'barn'. ( I am not saying John does this; I believe you and congrats to him for his training ability.) We have to describe compulsion. I have seen people use the fur saver or their hands hard enough to create compultsion. Some dogs are soft to the handler and take very little correction. I have no problem with people wanting to obtain this and bully for them if they can, but I have personally seen almost all the top seminar givers (schH) train with my own eyes and they use the ecollar mainly. You can just watch them in training before a big event. I purchased a DVD with the top GSDs on it (can't remember the name of the dvd) and ALL the dogs had some kind of compulsion tool. Almost all were on one or two ecollars, the rest were on prongs, and one of the handlers had a stick. If you are successful with a certain method than super congrats!  My problem is the lying and deception of some trainers for money who lie to the novice about corrections.
AG 
(just a dobie person)


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> The problem with compulsion is that no one hears about MOTIVATIONAL. Kick the dog's a$$ and call it training. I just retired from teaching and IF every kid learned on the same level, the same way, with the same rewards...it would be a piece of cake. Compulsion is by some nothing more than a license to leave self control at the door and beat the hell out of the poor dog! Learn to get into the head, then learn to structure the lesson.


Howard this is so typical. Compulsion automatically means abuse; license to leave self control
at the door.... I never said kick a dog's a** or beat them to a bloody pulp. This is exactly why
people are bullied into keeping quiet. This is an overblown reaction to compulsion. I am sure some
people are cruel and abusive, but that is not what is meant when people use the term compulsion
or correction.

"No one hears of MOTIVATIONAL" Are you kidding me? Where have you been? It is all about
motivational training and has been for years. When was the Booth/Gottfried book done? The 
voraus machine that spits a ball, the vest with the automatic ball drop, feed until you bleed,
spitting food, ball on a neck kerchief, taking off the shirt as a reward bite, all the videos you see
on tube.... You would have to be hiding under a rock (in schH) to miss that trend....
AG


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## Henry Ly (Aug 25, 2009)

*Powerful female German Shepherd for sale*

I have been trying to submit my add under the Adults for sale section but would not work.... [deleted]


** Mod note**

Post moved to here:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/dog-available-henry-ly-12482/#post144251

And back to "Starting Over" .....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

What specifically are you trying to fix? 

Maybe you don't need to start over. I haven't worked with that many adult dogs but for the dog I needed to work on her heeling, I "started over" by finding a different way to communicate with the dog. Instead of dragging her into position and repeatedly correcting her, which I never did with this dog, I put her in a martingale and started with marker training. Once I got her where I wanted her in terms of positioning and duration I went from food to a different type of reward to bring up and maintain drive. So yes, in a sense we did start over but I did so because I wanted her to understand that if she failed and got frustrated which she quickly and often did that she could work through it to get what she wanted. Previous to that she seemed conflicted and not terribly connected to whoever was on the end of her leash. I didn't have her long enough to fully develop the relationship I felt she deserved to do really well but she did eventually associate me as part of the working experience and it seemed to work really well for the two of us.

This wasn't my dog, she was only here for training - and boy do I miss her.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> Imprinting is all fine and dandy, but if it isn't backed up later with compulsion it means nothing. I do get tired of all these 'top' trainers that keep skirting the issue of compulsion. (down right lying about it)
> When I see a seminar where the trainer does 'feed til you bleed', but works totally different on her/his
> own home field (ie using the ecollar), I believe it is just dishonest.
> Anita


For instance? And I'm not calling you out just interested in who you are referring to I havent been to a seminar in a couple of years just wondering if there is someone new out there.
But there is a posability I may disagree with you.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

How can you "correct" what you haven't taught? Have you ever taught? Compulsion like love can take many faces! Since I don't know you, I can't say the terminology you are using lines up with what I have seen. Some say if you beat it, it's motivational training. If you then get on the wagon, you're motivated not to screw up... Redefine yourself.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> .... imprinting is all fine and dandy, but if it isn't backed up later with compulsion it means nothing. ... I do get tired of all these 'top' trainers that keep skirting the issue of compulsion. ... I have personally seen almost all the top seminar givers (schH) train with my own eyes and they use the ecollar mainly. You can just watch them in training before a big event.


Anita, meet Bob. Bob, Anita. :lol:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f17/training-methods-one-club-next-3267/#post38576

Bob's no-compulsion training took his dog Thunder to his SchH III.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> For instance? And I'm not calling you out just interested in who you are referring to I havent been to a seminar in a couple of years just wondering if there is someone new out there.
> But there is a posability I may disagree with you.


Gottfried Dildei, Sheila Booth, Joann Plumb...are a few. I have seen them train personally
as I was in DVG for many years. 
AG


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> Gottfried Dildei, Sheila Booth, Joann Plumb...are a few. I have seen them train personally
> as I was in DVG for many years.
> AG


Joann Plumb is the only one you mentioned. That had to of been almost 15 yrs ago and I dont recall a single thing


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> How can you "correct" what you haven't taught? Have you ever taught? Compulsion like love can take many faces! Since I don't know you, I can't say the terminology you are using lines up with what I have seen. Some say if you beat it, it's motivational training. If you then get on the wagon, you're motivated not to screw up... Redefine yourself.


Good point!
I think you teach what you want motivationally first, then you train the dog good things happen
when you are correct and bad things happen when you do things that are not correct. It has
worked well for me. My problem is that many seminar givers come and they show
only the motivational work. When I ask them "what about compulsion", they tell me things like "when
they are ready but these people are not ready, " or they whisper, "of course we use a prong/ecollar
but these people are not ready," or "I can't do that in one weekend." Ok, I understand, but if they
truly believe that then they should just say it to the club or the people. 
AG


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> Well good for him. Congrats to him for his success. My problem is a lot of people say this, but when you watch them train personally, it is not true. Or they do it behind the 'barn'. ( I am not saying John does this; I believe you and congrats to him for his training ability.) We have to describe compulsion. I have seen people use the fur saver or their hands hard enough to create compultsion. Some dogs are soft to the handler and take very little correction. I have no problem with people wanting to obtain this and bully for them if they can, but I have personally seen almost all the top seminar givers (schH) train with my own eyes and they use the ecollar mainly. You can just watch them in training before a big event. I purchased a DVD with the top GSDs on it (can't remember the name of the dvd) and ALL the dogs had some kind of compulsion tool. Almost all were on one or two ecollars, the rest were on prongs, and one of the handlers had a stick. If you are successful with a certain method than super congrats!  My problem is the lying and deception of some trainers for money who lie to the novice about corrections.
> AG
> (just a dobie person)


 
I think this is the problem with Seminars, and training for sale in general. I think the training is not really what's for sale. It's the image of the trainer selling it that is the real product. I hear "Trainer so and so fixed this problem in 10 minutes" Or "trainer so and so does not use this method and gets this result" and every seminar of everyone I have ever met, always says the same thing "it was the best money I ever spent"....and then thier dog looks exactly the same in the next trial. I have really become disillusioned with seminars. I really think that experience is not the best teacher...it's the only teacher.

The bottom line, the trainer being paid, has to leave making people think he/she is somehow is the "Dog Whisper"...if that's selling non-complusion training, or if it's fixing problems immediatly (even if it will not stick or will cause more problems later). If they want to sell more training, they have to deliver some form of instant gratification or the buyer will not return. 

Look at the Dog Whisper himself. People are wowed because he seems to be able to take a dog with huge problems and in a very short time fix the dog.

I used to have this huge competetion in me to go and train the shit out of my dog, and trial her hoping to win. and if I failed to achieve what I wanted it was a failure. I have stopped viewing the training/trial cycle like this. Now, I train, go trial and see if my training worked. I have stopped worrying about how my dog looks to the crowd, compares to what others think...and in some instances what the judge thinks. Though I do think the critique can be useful, I used to let it direct my training. I am now thinking more, trying more things...and not fearing trialing. Because now every trial produces a result, not a failure if that's what happens. it produces information on training program and it's effectiveness. this has made me, I believe, learn more in the last summer....than every single seminar I have attended.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Excellent post, James!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I think this is the problem with Seminars, and training for sale in general. I think the training is not really what's for sale. It's the image of the trainer selling it that is the real product. I hear "Trainer so and so fixed this problem in 10 minutes" Or "trainer so and so does not use this method and gets this result" and every seminar of everyone I have ever met, always says the same thing "it was the best money I ever spent"....and then thier dog looks exactly the same in the next trial. I have really become disillusioned with seminars. I really think that experience is not the best teacher...it's the only teacher.
> 
> The bottom line, the trainer being paid, has to leave making people think he/she is somehow is the "Dog Whisper"...if that's selling non-complusion training, or if it's fixing problems immediatly (even if it will not stick or will cause more problems later). If they want to sell more training, they have to deliver some form of instant gratification or the buyer will not return.
> 
> ...


I really dont feel the need to attend seminars any more ether however I wouldent have what training tools I have now had I not attended seminars not sure how long you have been involved in Schutzhund but back when I started there were a hand full of people that any sort of a clue about Schutzhund training. People would go to the pound and get dogs and practice force retrieves and force tracking on them that how it was figured it out.
A few people were lucky enough to go to Germany and clean kennels watch some training if you did good cleaning kennels you might get to work some dogs.
I attended a shit load of seminars given by Dean Calderon and watched and listened lots of it the same old stuff some of that same old stuff I still use today in a modifyed version or not. Same with Ivan I learned a hole new way training and thinking about dog training from him. 
Ill take a guess I bet Ivan Balabanov has been around since the first time you heard the word Schutzhund
Our club dont need any more seminars were doing just fine now. 
Our young helpers could use a week at a good helper camp though


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike, I do not know if you picked up on the thread where I talked about the book "OutLiers"...You could call Ivan an Outlier in our craft. I have attended Seminars with people of similar caliber and did walk away with new tools that I still use. But it's not going to be the factor that makes me a contender.

I have also attended seminars where I had more problems to fix than I did the day before I attended the seminar.

I also do not want to be the guy that just does something the champ does. I want to aquire the skill of seeing a problem and solving it. The Seminar process, just hands me the answer...it for goes the critical thinking process that I wish to hone.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> Imprinting is all fine and dandy, but if it isn't backed up later with compulsion it means nothing. I do get tired of all these 'top' trainers that keep skirting the issue of compulsion. (down right lying about it)
> When I see a seminar where the trainer does 'feed til you bleed', but works totally different on her/his
> own home field (ie using the ecollar), I believe it is just dishonest.
> Anita


Come see my dog Thunder! SchIII, CDX, TT, HT,CGC. He's NEVER worn a choke, pinch, e-collar OR recieved a leash correction through these titles. We will be going for more herding titles this winter and next spring! If I get off my ass and train a bit more we'll be doing his UD next yr also. 
Can any dog do it? No! Thunder is a fantastic dog!
Can any handler do it? No? I'm not any sort of a super trainer by any streach. I just got me a great dog!
A number of dogs, including another SchIII (Lynsey Vance and Aridan) on the club I belonged to have titled with reward based (food.tug/sleeve) only.
A SchII title was put on a Presa at the club by Jen Chandler with Boogy with NO PHYSICAL correction! Am I bragging? Damn right I am! :razz::razz::razz::razz: ;-)


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Come see my dog Thunder! SchIII, CDX, TT, HT,CGC. He's NEVER worn a choke, pinch, e-collar OR recieved a leash correction through these titles. We will be going for more herding titles this winter and next spring! If I get off my ass and train a bit more we'll be doing his UD next yr also.
> Can any dog do it? No! Thunder is a fantastic dog!
> Can any handler do it? No? I'm not any sort of a super trainer by any streach. I just got me a great dog!
> A number of dogs, including another SchIII (Lynsey Vance and Aridan) on the club I belonged to have titled with reward based (food.tug/sleeve) only.
> A SchII title was put on a Presa at the club by Jen Chandler with Boogy with NO PHYSICAL correction! Am I bragging? Damn right I am! :razz::razz::razz::razz: ;-)


Good for you and your club! But you can't convine me differently after 30 years and a couple of 
titled dogs myself. What I see that I personally like is the balance between reward and
punishment. When I watch people like Roland Seibel, Ronny (belgium), Fritz Beihler, Phil
Hoelcher, T and Dean train I like the way their dogs look. I looked at the picture of the WUSV winner
on pedigree database and it looks like she has a collar on her dog. (or a dummy) I just
like the finished product. I also like what it shows for breeding purposes. I don't mind different
methods used for different dogs and it is rather cool to learn new techniques. Getting
a title of any sort is wonderful. Getting a SchH 1 with barely passing scores is still awesome!
My biggest gripe is the lying and misguiding. 
AG


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anita Griffing said:


> Good point!
> I think you teach what you want motivationally first, then you train the dog good things happen
> when you are correct and bad things happen when you do things that are not correct. It has
> worked well for me. My problem is that many seminar givers come and they show
> ...


 I agree!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Anita Griffing said:


> Good for you and your club! But you can't convine me differently after 30 years and a couple of
> titled dogs myself. What I see that I personally like is the balance between reward and
> punishment. When I watch people like Roland Seibel, Ronny (belgium), Fritz Beihler, Phil
> Hoelcher, T and Dean train I like the way their dogs look. I looked at the picture of the WUSV winner
> ...


I agree good post 
A good GSD or any good dog for that matter should respond strong and with vigor with fair physical guidance.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> Good for you and your club! But you can't convine me differently after 30 years and a couple of
> titled dogs myself. What I see that I personally like is the balance between reward and
> punishment. When I watch people like Roland Seibel, Ronny (belgium), Fritz Beihler, Phil
> Hoelcher, T and Dean train I like the way their dogs look. I looked at the picture of the WUSV winner
> ...


Not trying to convince you. I've learned yrs ago that most people don't believe something is possible if they themself can't do it. :razz: :twisted:
If ya wanna compair years with me yer commin up 20- 30 short! :grin:;-)
I've mentioned before that I'm not against compulsion trianing when done correctly but this was a venture to see if it truely can be done. It can!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I believe you Bob. I was new to IPO but got my Briard to IPO 3 with a minimum of using the pinch (then permissible here). I could have got my 3 with him anyway but using it for a very short time eased up the heeling issue. Got complimented by Fritz Biehler at a seminar for the OB and he said we could go to over-regional trials but he hadn't seen our tracking[-o<

Here, the dog was a one-off for his breed and would do practically anything I asked of him so sometimes it was like a piece of cake.

However, I wouldn't have made it to the top, BSP, WUSV, etc. We got 90+ in B and C a number of times and I was trying for the Swiss Championships but my trainer advised me not to because of the tracking.

I now have a dog that helps me take one step forward and then one back and he is definitely not a piece of cake or maybe I was never a good trainer :sad:

I, too, like to judge the "finished product", however attained. If applied correctly, you shouldn't be able to see the training uses of pinch, e-collar and co. On the other hand, I don't think any of them in the first 20 did it with just motivation.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> Here's a great visual video of teaching the heel between the legs. It gives the dog rear end awareness and teaches him/her to move with his head up.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xx_e4S-vHM


That's cool, but what I hate about videos like this is that the dog is always a trained dog that already knows, or at least has some idea of, what is expected. 

How would this process be started with a dog that had no idea what you wanted him to do? Most dogs are not comfortable having someone stand over them like that.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kristen Cabe said:


> ... Most dogs are not comfortable having someone stand over them like that.


 And I'll be willing to bet if it were a dominate MALE, you would pay hell trying that stunt!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Can any dog do it? No! Thunder is a fantastic dog!
> Can any handler do it? No? I'm not any sort of a super trainer by any streach. I just got me a great dog!
> Am I bragging? Damn right I am! :razz::razz::razz::razz: ;-)


The dog is the key to succsessful training. After that it is the trainer. What taught Bob what he knows is working with terriers. ](*,) Get heavy handed with them brings out a stubborn side that you will be lucky to overcome. Work with them and they will give you everything they have. It still depends on the quality of the material you stat with. A good stubborn terrier will teach you how to train. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> And I'll be willing to bet if it were a dominate MALE, you would pay hell trying that stunt!!!


Howard, I would think the true dominate male would be the easiest to stand over as opposed to dogs that are less sure.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don I'll let you test that one, video NOT needed! :-o


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I'll have to pass on that offer Howard. Just the wrong position to have a dog in to find out I was wrong.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The dog is the key to succsessful training. After that it is the trainer. What taught Bob what he knows is working with terriers. ](*,) Get heavy handed with them brings out a stubborn side that you will be lucky to overcome. Work with them and they will give you everything they have. It still depends on the quality of the material you stat with. A good stubborn terrier will teach you how to train. LOL


 
Amen Don! It was my competition Kerry Blues that were the first to make me say WTF! I took one of them to a national ranking in AKC obedience. Looking back on a number of dogs I've trained I will always wonder "What if".
I'll not count out correction training but it will never be used anywhere near the level I used to. 
Just haven't needed it with Thunder.
[quote Don] "The dog is the key to successful training"!
[quote Don] "A good stubborn terrier will teach youhow to train"! and lots of patience! :grin:;-)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Howard, I would think the true dominate male would be the easiest to stand over as opposed to dogs that are less sure.


I will agree with that!
Dominance and rank issues are apples and oranges. 
Dominance is confidence.
Now someone other then the dog's owner/family....then it's a matter of "hey! I don't know you. Back off".........then they bite after the warning. :-D:-D:wink:


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