# Crate Spinning



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

My new foster dog is a crate spinner. She is a two? year old Dutch Shepherd, basically a nice, super high energy (ugh... she's exhausting at times), sometimes sweet, weirdo girl. Not a hard dog, but a DS, nonetheless. She seems very puppyish at times, very mature at others. 

She was picked up as a stray about five months ago, adopted out and returned. She was 'stressed' in the shelter, so turned over to a rescue.

When she gets excited, she does laps in her crate. She also spins in front of a closed door she wants to go through. Pretty sure she's been 'practicing' this in the shelter. She tends to circle when outside, though big, loose circles.

Any suggestions on dealing with this?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*PLATZ* thats it


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## Sarah Atlas (Dec 15, 2008)

suggest you work on the down command and if that does not help an e-collarf with the down command is a wonderful tool


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Give a platz command and expect her to not move for 4, 5,6 hours or repeat every 10 minutes? I'd use OC wait till she's quiet and click/mark treat. Ignore the spinning and reward the quiet.
That and give her something to do with her energy. She sounds like a not untypical DS


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

6" small chain with snaps on both ends, one to her and one to the crate door


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kevin,

I guarantee she'll rid the crate door off the hinges if she freaks out. Crate spinning isn't a obedience issue. It's a drive/ temperament issue


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

If it makes you feel better that sounds very much like Ripp. She is a spinner when she's over excited and has no outlet, so is one of her pups. 

i.e. first run out the door in the morning if she really has to go she flies to the door and spins in front of it until I get there then she sits and waits for me to open the door. 

She does the large circles while outside also, it looks like she's herding the other dogs and running the perimeter. The solution, give her some thing else to do like chase a kong. Then she channels that energy to running back and forth in a linear pattern lol. She just has energy to burn and needs a mentally satisfying outlet for it. It doesn't happen if we're in novel surroundings and she's busy darting around investigating. 

If your girl is doing laps in her crate, put her in a smaller crate to restrict the movement and work on rewarding a calm down while in there. I would also require a down or sit to come out to prevent her from spinning when you come up to let her out.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> .... The solution, *give her some thing else to do* like chase a kong .... *work on* *rewarding a calm down* while in there. ....





Thomas Barriano said:


> I'd use OC wait till she's quiet and click/mark treat. Ignore the spinning and *reward the quiet*. .... That and *give her something to do with her energy*. She sounds like a not untypical DS



And I don't think the e-collar belongs in this equation.

JMO!


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> She sounds like a not untypical DS


lol Leslie you're just lucky that your other girl is calm as a lamb!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Door spinning = she gets nothing. I initially sat mine 5' in front of it and opened the door to let her out. Easily and quickly that distance/duration shortened and the beginnings of that behavior stopped. Though if there's any evidence of it starting I simply put greater distance between me and the door and she gets the hint pretty quickly.

I haven't dealt with crate spinning much but if there's any evidence of it what so ever I stop advancing forward. At that point if she's in action I'd say no/sit and then move forward to let her out. She/her/any dog can be excited but spinning is not an extension of that which I am willing to allow nor will she be rewarded for it.

If your proximity to the crate seems to start it then figure out the threshold, make her sit and approach. If she gets up and there's no spinning simply get her back into a sit and continue to move forward. Spinning would compel me to put some space between me and the dog and start it over but whatever the distance, I'd start at one that is known to initiate the behavior.

Unless I have the wrong read on things this doesn't sound like something she does compulsively in the crate but more so when stimulated by your presence or other interesting activities taking place around her. Is that correct?

If this has anything to do with compulsive/persistent behavior then in need to bow out of this discussion.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And I don't think the e-collar belongs in this equation.
> 
> JMO!


 
Sure it does. Use it as positive punishment, after being trained properly. then the dog has both good and bad consequences for it's actions.

Counter conditioning an already ingrained behavior to a stimulus may be rough using only positive. 

Using both, you move quickly and your dog won't end up in prison for getting a tenth place ribbon at something in kindergarten and then robbing a liquor store when it finds out it's not as good as the 10th place ribbon suggested in kindergarten. 

Not saying it wont work with a click treat, but why tie your hands like the US legal system has done to itself. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Teach that there are consequences to both.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so....platz?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> so....platz?


Maybe so. The only reason I choose sit over platz is you may end up reinforcing a hovering, incorrect platz. I don't particularly like opening the door so to invite problems I'd rather not need to address later.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Maybe so. The only reason I choose sit over platz is you may end up reinforcing a hovering, incorrect platz. I don't particularly like opening the door so to invite problems I'd rather not need to address later.


ok down platz....sit, sitz, schtay, stand.. whatever..  ANYTHING


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Maybe so. The only reason I choose sit over platz is you may end up reinforcing a hovering, incorrect platz. I don't particularly like opening the door so to invite problems I'd rather not need to address later.


 
I think the important thing is a separate command mutually exclusive to the spinning.

I hadn't thought of using a more relaxed command with a competition dog, but not a bad idea to avoid the almost down or the almost sit. Good idea.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> My new foster dog is a crate spinner. She is a two? year old Dutch Shepherd, basically a nice, super high energy (ugh... she's exhausting at times), sometimes sweet, weirdo girl. Not a hard dog, but a DS, nonetheless. She seems very puppyish at times, very mature at others.
> 
> She was picked up as a stray about five months ago, adopted out and returned. She was 'stressed' in the shelter, so turned over to a rescue.
> 
> ...


High drive dog, lots of energy to get rid off, works it out with spinning in the crate and other places. 

Simplest thing to say is give her more exercise but it is fact, more exercise and spinning will get less. Doesn't completely solve the problem tho. I'd say ecollar is your best bet here. As long as she doesn't know the ecollar you could use either the low stimulation or vibrate function to "Snap her out of it" Its a buildup, you can see it coming, snap her out of it before she reaches that point. Reward profusely afterwards.

Its self satisfying behaviour and it will progress if not dealt with.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

More exercise will make the dog tired for the moment. Sure. All it really does is make for a strong dog with endurance that will spin more the next time it has more energy on a rainy day or day you don't get to interact. Teach it what you want. 

There are some stupid ecollar comments on here, including to use it to "snap her out of it". I really don't see a point in doing that with a dog. Stimming with no idea what for or what to do. Serves no purpose other than to make the dog not care about ecollar stim or pick something else to do on it's own. Neither are good, although sometimes you get lucky if the correction scares it enough to not move in the crate. That is harsh and un needed though. 

Teaching it what you want, and then using the ecollar as a correction is great. Once they understand A. what to do, and B. what to do after a correction. I have done all my ecollar stuff pairing its stim with the pinch collar. new stimulus then old. 

This is an instance where a dog needs to learn an acceptable behavior (sit down or stand without spinning in this case), and then have a consequence for correct behavior and bad behavior.





Alice Bezemer said:


> High drive dog, lots of energy to get rid off, works it out with spinning in the crate and other places.
> 
> Simplest thing to say is give her more exercise but it is fact, more exercise and spinning will get less. Doesn't completely solve the problem tho. I'd say ecollar is your best bet here. As long as she doesn't know the ecollar you could use either the low stimulation or vibrate function to "Snap her out of it" Its a buildup, you can see it coming, snap her out of it before she reaches that point. Reward profusely afterwards.
> 
> Its self satisfying behaviour and it will progress if not dealt with.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> More exercise will make the dog tired for the moment. Sure. All it really does is make for a strong dog with endurance that will spin more the next time it has more energy on a rainy day or day you don't get to interact. Teach it what you want.
> *Tempted to hand you a set of glasses, I pretty much did say that but I guess you skipped that part  *
> 
> There are some stupid ecollar comments on here, including to use it to "snap her out of it". I really don't see a point in doing that with a dog. Stimming with no idea what for or what to do. Serves no purpose other than to make the dog not care about ecollar stim or pick something else to do on it's own. Neither are good, although sometimes you get lucky if the correction scares it enough to not move in the crate. That is harsh and un needed though.
> ...


_"There are some stupid ecollar comments on here, including to use it to "snap her out of it". "_ :lol: Coming from you, Dave.... I'll take it as a compliment!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> _"There are some stupid ecollar comments on here, including to use it to "snap her out of it". "_ :lol: Coming from you, Dave.... I'll take it as a compliment!


Glad you took it as I meant it!!!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

leslie; you're not a rookie : so might be better to hear what you have done that hasn't worked so you don't have read the same stuff repeated again ...

self induced, excessive, obsessive spinning is not an OB problem (imo) and many times OB will not cure a temperament problem; it only blocks it temporarily

quick and dirty answer is : dog needs to be going in a straight direction more often ... duh 
of course being kenneled and frustrated conditioned it; water over the bridge now
if you started tossing balls it would probably become an obsessive fetcher too ... duh 

- needs a "lifestyle adjustment" ... and more productive jobs ... make the OB a "job" rather than a quick redirect or a drive capper ?
- make the dog use its other senses (nose) for the "other" jobs ?
- Ecollar work is a good tool after it learns what the Ecollar means , but so is the lead and collar ... none are "cures" by themselves
- a tired dog is good, but resting often just gives it time to recharge and catch its "second wind" 

Q's that come to mind for me :
do you have other dogs it can work with ?
do you have the time and motivation this rescue needs ?
do you have other people it can work with ?
has it learned basic markers yet ?
will it use its nose for anything ?
does it enjoy biting and will it out ?
is it possessive ?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks everyone for ideas and suggestions. 

She's only been here for a few days, so she's just settling in and getting used to being a house dog and the routine of living here and I am trying to get to know her. I have no idea what kind of training she's had already - she seems to know sit and down, but I haven't done any real training with her so far, except for cookie sits.

She is getting exercise and hang out time at home, but is crated when I am work and overnight. 

The spinning is, I guess, barrier frustration? It's a totally new behaviour for me to deal with. Next to this dog, my resident DS looks positively mellow.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

good luck and keep us posted ... hopefully it will turn out to be a nice dog

i've had a few "spinners" that didn't care if there was a barrier around them or not //lol//


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> good luck and keep us posted ... hopefully it will turn out to be a nice dog
> 
> i've had a few "spinners" that didn't care if there was a barrier around them or not //lol//


I dated a spinner for 6 years...4'11 93 lbs...

those were the days ....


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

now that u mention it Joby .... Subic City and Olongapo comes to mind :-\"


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I dated a spinner for 6 years...4'11 93 lbs...
> 
> those were the days ....


Totally different kind of spinner Joby 
How did your react to the PLATZ command?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> Thanks everyone for ideas and suggestions.
> 
> She's only been here for a few days, so she's just settling in and getting used to being a house dog and the routine of living here and I am trying to get to know her. I have no idea what kind of training she's had already - she seems to know sit and down, but I haven't done any real training with her so far, except for cookie sits.
> 
> ...


I agree with Connie, no need for an e-collar. The platz command could be helpful. but I think, the most effective thing. Never, ever open that door if she is spinning. When I tell people to do things like this, they say... She won't stop. Yes she will, she won't die spinning. Or they will say she will rub sores on her sides. So? OR she will go to the bathroom if I don't let her out....PERFECT!!! and I hope she hates standing in her own filth. But the door ain't opening till she stops.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I agree with Connie, no need for an e-collar. The platz command could be helpful. but I think, the most effective thing. Never, ever open that door if she is spinning. When I tell people to do things like this, they say... She won't stop. Yes she will, she won't die spinning. Or they will say she will rub sores on her sides. So? OR she will go to the bathroom if I don't let her out....PERFECT!!! and I hope she hates standing in her own filth. But the door ain't opening till she stops.


and if she doesnt hate laying in her own filth, you get a nice fingerpainter...


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Drop her ass outside in a kennel.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm a huge fan of NOT doing the reward when she's quiet thing. IMO all the dogs I've seen with this type of training continue the behavior and then stop because they know when they stop the get rewarded. So she'll end up spinning off and on every 10-15 minutes waiting for the reward.

I've seen it with mine own eyes. With many dogs.

I also don't want to distract the dog with a Kong or whatever. That doesn't teach the dog anything, and when she's bored of the toy or finished with her bully stick you're back to square one.

I teach the dog to be calm in a place command outside the crate. They have a blanket in the house they lay on. They're in a long down and they must hold that long down until I tell them to get up. And part of this long down on a place is to be calm. With no toys, no rewards. You are calm because those are house manners and I've told you to lay down and relax. I use "place" as the command.

For me, this transferred amazing into the crate. I then taught the crate as a place command. Once she understood outside that place meant relax and be still, it was extremely easy for her to get that the crate was another place, and she was to relax and be still.

I really have had zero issues with this method.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> and if she doesnt hate laying in her own filth, you get a nice fingerpainter...


Exactly. I've seen this more often than not.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> ..... the dogs I've seen with this type of training continue the behavior and then stop because they know when they stop the get rewarded. So she'll end up spinning off and on every 10-15 minutes waiting for the reward.


Not gradually introducing duration, and then proofing, and, of course, eventually modifying that 100% reward schedule (basically, not completing the training) could certainly create that. Completing the training would result in a new command to use the instant any spinning started (_and other times_, like the training of any new command). 

The big picture (to me) is training and proofing the behavior you do want (like Katie's "place" command).


Rewarding when the dog stops spinning captures "not spinning." That's all it does, and I want it to do that, but it's not the end of the training.


Like any free-shaping training, it requires timing to capture the desired behavior, but then there's perfecting it (not much of that for this particular behavior) and, for this kind of behavior, introducing duration.

You might free-shape a sit, but you don't stop working on it when the butt touches the ground for a second. 

_And when it's trained and named and proofed, IMO, that's when corrections for noncompliance would be in order._



ETA
Has the dog learned marker basics (or really just "have you loaded a marker?")?

Also, as someone else said, this would be altered for me if this was obsessive behavior.

And if it's not, then I also agree completely with "tired dog goes into crate" .... exercise.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I agree with Connie, no need for an e-collar. The platz command could be helpful. but I think, the most effective thing. Never, ever open that door if she is spinning. When I tell people to do things like this, they say... She won't stop. Yes she will, she won't die spinning. Or they will say she will rub sores on her sides. So? OR she will go to the bathroom if I don't let her out....PERFECT!!! and I hope she hates standing in her own filth. But the door ain't opening till she stops.


I like your advice, obviously inclusive of Connies, and Nicole's.

I've heard "rewarding the dog every 15 minutes". How can Leslie do this if the dog is crated over night or when she's at work - same goes for platz. Platz is "don't move until I give the release command". How can this happen?

I've never had a spinner apart from the one who invited me out for a meal - full of anticipation of a good meal, what did I get: Wienerli at the local restaurant.

Leslie, how much exercise - not just running around - does the dog get before he is crated? One good idea is to start tracking with it. This tires most dogs even though a lot of handlers think it's a piece of cake for them.

I have to ask you: why crate it over night if it's been crated whilst you are at work. Again I don't know your circumstances so please don't feel I'm criticising (not half:lol

Maybe the dog has never been crated in its life before?

I literally shoved our 8 week old pup into the crate. We had taken it to the local restaurant (hungry as we were after collecting it) and the pup played up. However not letting it out when it screamed cured this and it slept overnight in it beautifully. I think it was thankful that "Big Buster" couldn't terrorize it.

Crates are great but can cause problems.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

lots of ideas here about how to react to it and stop it and then substitute "better" behaviors, etc., but not as much discussion on why it happens and what to do to prevent it from happening

guess i haven't been around that many spinning dogs, but the ones i have seen that do it at the drop of a hat, or made it obsessive, self fulfilling behavior needed a different lifestyle

my house dog will still spin in a microsecond but i have learned why that happens so it rarely gets into that frame of mind anymore ... if it starts to come back and i have to start "managing it" with OB, i know where i have been slacking off 
....but the OB i applied didn't prevent the behavior 

being as proactive as you are reactive is the best way to curb this imo

wth, it's a NEW dog, right ? you're still at square one 
give it a chance ... once you get into a better "daily routine" and it starts going in the "right" direction i think this will fade out ... last thing you want to do is give it attention when it's spinning //lol//

maybe i'm not reading this correctly. is this a BIG problem right now that makes other training take a back seat ??


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw, this dog loves you to death and wants to be with you and is happy you got it, right ?? a little facetious, but i'm sure you get the point here 

if you ignore it and simply and quickly walk away, it should stop spinning and follow you in a much "straighter" direction ... if it hangs back and keeps spinning, then yeah, you got a problem //lol//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

did you re-name it "Gyro" ??


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I see this as a stress induced behaviour in this dog. She's so spun up she's almost frantic and definitely not thinking. 

She is mostly quiet in her crate. The spinning happens when I approach to let her out. She circles in front of the back door to go outside, or to get back inside, but it's not as bad as when she's in the crate. 

I have no idea if she has always done this or if the behaviour was increased or unintentionally encouraged by being in a shelter/kennel run. She was released to the rescue for home foster because she was so stressed and did not show well for adoption.

I haven't really tried anything yet with her, aside from trying to stop her from getting to that point of no return in her mind where she stops thinking. As I said, dealing with this is totally new to me and I'm trying to get a handle on it so it doesn't get worse. 

I plan to start with the clicker on the weekend. My other dogs will like that, too.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> I see this as a stress induced behaviour in this dog. She's so spun up she's almost frantic and definitely not thinking.
> 
> She is mostly quiet in her crate. The spinning happens when I approach to let her out. She circles in front of the back door to go outside, or to get back inside, but it's not as bad as when she's in the crate.
> 
> ...



I see it as stress-related too. 

It will be simpler to train a new behavior, like quiet-before-the-door-opens, for spinning that happens only when you approach (I had missed that part  ).

I've stood like a statue until the dog stopped to look ("WTH?") so I could capture and mark/reward it.

And of course, that's only the beginning.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Leslie, how much exercise - not just running around - does the dog get before he is crated? One good idea is to start tracking with it. This tires most dogs even though a lot of handlers think it's a piece of cake for them.
> 
> I have to ask you: why crate it over night if it's been crated whilst you are at work. Again I don't know your circumstances so please don't feel I'm criticising (not half:lol
> 
> Maybe the dog has never been crated in its life before?


My goal is to have her not crated ever, like my other dogs.

For now, she's crated as much as she is because I have a cat that she is far too interested in to be trusted around. As well, I want to ensure that all the dogs are getting along and that there is mutual respect on everyone's part before I leave her unsupervised with my two. 

She seems comfortable in the crate, and goes in easily, and will choose to lie down in the open crate at times. 

She gets a good long run in the morning with ball play and ample time to sniff and pee and be a dog before I go to work. I am up about 2 1/2 hours before I leave for work, and while that is not all spent entertaining the dogs, it is time interacting with them. 

Then after work, either another run if I have time, or a leash walk and play in my yard.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

hate to just toss out a "technique", but pleas etry and give this a shot a few times and report back
- go to the door to let her out
- she starts spinning
- have a traffic lead with you and treat or tug or whatever reward she responds to

walk to her, she spins, walk away and call her when you ARE NOT looking at hr ... if she comes snap on the traffic lead and keep walking her ...IN THE HOUSE ...ON LEAD
gradually go to the front door but BFORE you get to the door, have her sit....then slowly continue out the door 
- how can she spin once she's on a traffic lead ?

recap :
- spinning makes you avoid her; when she shows up, you reward and keep moving in a straight direction... i don't even care about "marking" at this point
- just show her the spinning gets NO attention and drives you off ... if you get in her face with all thios platzing and other stuff, you ARE giving attention to the spinning :-(((

if she won't do this you need some bonding work 
- and for sure, make the walk "productive" when you leave


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw, my post was not a "fix" ... just some steps in the right direction and a test to see how bad it is


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I dated a spinner for 6 years...4'11 93 lbs...
> 
> those were the days ....


I much prefer a SNAPPER! Only had one of those in my life. Very cool!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Now we are getting somewhere - I thought I knew you better and it proves to be so.

The problem is only to get her to quiet down before she leaves the crate. Is this truly "spinning"?

Or is this a normal dog who has spent a considerable time in the crate and is eager to get out?

The same rules apply but, if she is a greedy eater, I would hold a piece of kibble in front of her - make her sit and when she does and is quiet, I would let her out and give her the kibble. It's cheating slightly but what the heck? This is a dog that has maybe gone through a number of experiences and not all positive?

I cannot see any advantages of using the teletact here - you might provoke more problems.

Sraightforward, no nonsense rules are probably the best.

When we took our dogs to the forest, they used to pace out the box together, in the hope to be the first to leave. They were in one box but we had two doors. One day I opened the "other" door and none came out.
Dogs that have been crated however long this might be have a natural instinct to leave the "jail"!!


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Ya this totally sounds like just pent up energy and not a neurotic behaviour. 

I would work on an automatic sit in the crate before the door opens and work that into an automatic sit when ever you approach the crate to let her out. If she starts to spin, walk away. She obviously wants to go out, with holding access to a reward can work amazingly in these cases, much better and even faster in some cases that trying to correct or punish the dog into the desired behaviour. 

The tricky part will be working on extinguishing the already existing spinning. If you start to move towards the crate and she starts to spin, you need to abort and leave and wait a few seconds before trying to approach again in order to reset the trial. Otherwise you will very easily work that initial couple spins to be a part of the chain behaviour to open the crate. ie spin spin sit get out. 

I would set her up in such a way that she can't see you approach, that might be as easy as throwing a thick large blanket over the crate so she can only see out the front (if she won't pull in and chew it, in which case put a sheet of plywood larger then the crate on top of the crate and then drape the blanket). This way you can sneak up on her from around the corner of the crate without the build up of her seeing you walking up to the crate. 

Work on the target behaviour while close up first. Once you have it perfectly without any spinning while you sneak up from around the corner to open the door and she slams her utt down, you can start adding distance in your approach to the crate. So come from a little further out around the corner and walk a step or tow towards the door. To get the initial behaviour, you can use cookies to lure and encourage a sit from the top of the crate (wire crate only obviously), then begin to open the door while continueing to feed from top, if she's still sitting give a release word and let her run out, if she makes any move towards the door, slam it shut, walk away and reset the exercise. 

With my guys I don't even bother with the food, although I may do it a few times if I have the time. I have a shaped sit for a cookie that they do automatically outside of the crate. I want that to be their offered response when they want some thing I have and that they can generalize. Then when they're in a crate I go to open the door and wait... wait wait wait.... out of frustration they start to back up, I begin to open the door, they move forward I slam it shut, wait wait wait, they back up and sit, I begin to open the door, they move I slam it shut. I've done this with baby puppies and grown adult client dogs of all shapes and sizes and breeds and ages, they pick this shit up quickly! You move, door slams close, sit in the back of the crate until you hear your release word, and you get to run out. It's actually easier and faster with the crazy ones 

And all of the above is with you being completely silent, no speaking, no good dog, no bad dog, the only time you open your mouth is to say the release word. The more you talk the more it slows down their learning process.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Oh and if you're already not doing this, ignore her for a bit after you get home after work. Let her settle before working this as it will be hard. If I was you, I would come in the door, let the other dogs out, take care of them while she settles as I'm sure she will be going nuts as soon as she hears you come in, then put them away so she can have your undivided attention and there are no distractions for her of the other dogs running around. Work on the polite crate exit with no spinning, and initially that might take a while for a successful trial, but the patience will pay off. 

If possible, have her in a part of the house where you're not walking past her when you get home or have the crate fully covered so she can't see out.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kevin Cyr said:


> 6" small chain with snaps on both ends, one to her and one to the crate door


 +1


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "6" small chain with snaps on both ends, one to her and one to the crate door"

since we now have 2 votes for the chain method (and i'm sure no one would suggest anything that they have never tried before), could either of you elaborate on exactly how to apply this method and how long it took to correct the problem for your dogs ?

sorry, but i don't get it


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You are not the only one...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Chain is hooked to her collar and to the crate door with the thought that it prevents her from spinning since the chain will hold her in place as its attached to the crate door...

Guess they never seen a dog lose its everloving mind when finding out its stuck from movement and not sure on the why, how and what, and then it proceeds to either rip out the door, or if your very lucky, choke itself on the chain that's supposed to keep it from spinning...

Yeah, great options to use.... I can see how it would stop the dog from spinning, specialy if it chokes itself on the chain. Problem solved, permanently!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

message recieved thanks Alice


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Before this conversation continues I'd like to clarify if this is compulsive spinning - no prior stimulation and constant or does it simply present itself when she appears and is gearing up to interact with the dog. At the door is the dog spinning in excitment/anticipation or is it fast, racey, and impenetrable in nature?

Leslie I am confident you can get this straight but I'd like to see what she's doing and when. It appears to me that the general impression is she's a compulsive spinner. I did not read that far into what you said therefore I am interested in knowing what the actual sitiation is.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Sorry if I wasn't clear. She spins/circles when something excites/stresses her. 

At home, that's usually when she wants out of her crate or through a door. In the crate in the van, she will start to spin if my other dogs start barking, or when we get to where we're going and she wants out. 

She sleeps through the night. Maybe a little fussing at bedtime, but she's ready to crash when I go to bed. 

She's a work in progress... still getting to know her.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Chain is hooked to her collar and to the crate door with the thought that it prevents her from spinning since the chain will hold her in place as its attached to the crate door...
> 
> Guess they never seen a dog lose its everloving mind when finding out its stuck from movement and not sure on the why, how and what, and then it proceeds to either rip out the door, or if your very lucky, choke itself on the chain that's supposed to keep it from spinning...
> 
> Yeah, great options to use.... I can see how it would stop the dog from spinning, specialy if it chokes itself on the chain. Problem solved, permanently!


WOW! Your world is so much scarier than mine. 

IME, most of the spinning behavior is a habit caused because the dog has excited energy and learns that spinning will relieve energy. 

I put a short chain (too short to wrap around the dogs necks) and connect it to flat collar and the gate of the kennel. This set up stops the dog from spinning. For some dogs they only need the chain for a few weeks others need it for life. Either way it forces the dog to calm down in the crate. 

This is a common practice in coated show dogs because they don't want the dog's coat breaking and messing up their fancy hair-doo. I have seen this done to dozens of dogs and have NEVER seen a dog have a big reaction to it. But if your dog freaks out from this...don't do it and use another method.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Chain is hooked to her collar and to the crate door with the thought that it prevents her from spinning since the chain will hold her in place as its attached to the crate door...
> 
> Guess they never seen a dog lose its everloving mind when finding out its stuck from movement and not sure on the why, how and what, and then it proceeds to either rip out the door, or if your very lucky, choke itself on the chain that's supposed to keep it from spinning...
> 
> Yeah, great options to use.... I can see how it would stop the dog from spinning, specialy if it chokes itself on the chain. Problem solved, permanently!


+1

It might work with a show dog but with a Dutch Shepherd or any high energy dog? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris not that I share them but I kinda get where some of those concerns come from. I know of a dog that was killed by his crate, not by the method described but it was a crate related issue that ended up strangling the dog. It's not so much about this scary world but rather expressed uncertainty about managing a dog that way. Until yesterday I never heard of anything like that. Well, with the exception of when a friend of mine hosted Lance Collins and during that time he showed her how to deal with her Boxers compulsive barking in the crate. He wasn't chained but it did involve a line into the crate which was affixed to the dogs collar. Interestingly, after two years of struggling with this issue he showed her in about 15-20 minutes how to put and end to that.

I have seend quite a number of comments about energy, exercise, and this behavior. My experience says otherwise. Dogs that spin IMO are genetically predisposed to behave in tihs manner. It becomes problemaatic if the dog isn't taught to behave in a different fashion. My dog is one of those types that I strongly suspect would turn into a spinner if permitted to. 

It's not about exercise - at least not for her. A few of you watched the 18 mile conditioning video I put up of her a few weeks ago so those who did should have a pretty good idea from that and a number of others that I have posted that she has a sufficient outlet to expend energy ("mindless running" is just one of them). 

Yet, it doesn't matter if it's 18 miles on a trail, 2 hours in the water, etc. if you walk towards a door that blocks her exit she's going to be inclined to start spinning in anticipation of being let out. Dave said it well teach what you want. I want her sitting when I approach her crate and she will wait before I let her out. In otherwords I don't allow her to meet that "barrier" or respond to the stimulation that can set that behavior into motion to begin with. 

Although rare, once she fell into the routine of sitting before approaching the door, I did need to raise her up by the collar until she was better settled in her head and then we would finish what we started. I am certain if someone else had Wasabi if they didn't do these things, she'd start this up again if they didn't keep her in check. The situation now is that when she's in the crate she doesn't even bother to get up until I am within about 2-3' of it and then when she does she simply moves up into a sit and waits.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1
> 
> It might work with a show dog but with a Dutch Shepherd or any high energy dog? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


They act like people have tried it.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> Sorry if I wasn't clear. She spins/circles when something excites/stresses her.
> 
> At home, that's usually when she wants out of her crate or through a door. In the crate in the van, she will start to spin if my other dogs start barking, or when we get to where we're going and she wants out.
> 
> ...


******
Leslie, when I got her at 10 months, my Malinois female did spin (not endlessly) in the crate, at the door, and in vehicle. From what info I could gather, she went from the breeder as a young pup to a woman who intended to use her as a therapy dog. At about 3 months old, she was passed along to a young fellow, and then to a working kennel. 

I've had her almost a year now. Perhaps there is a genetic predisposition to the spinning, but I'm happy to say the behavior faded as she settled. She still reverts to it very occasionally (maybe once/month, e.g. by the door to go outside, or in the car if she has arrived at a known "fun" destination. She doesn't get so immersed in the spinning that she can't stop, but occasionally she will need to be reminded to calm. She is an excellent traveller. She settles and sleeps in the car. She also has excellent house manners, living with kids, cat, bird, and other dogs.

For my dog, it appears the trigger to the behavior is being wound up (excited, enthusiastic). She never did any spinning in stress/anxiety or fear situations. My approach was lots of time walking/running in the bush (off leash) or swimming lakes/rivers with me, and automatic sit/ eye focus as a default at any transition points (e.g. doors). She doesn't get to go on to the next step until she is calm. The rule is "Keep calm and carry on." In her case, it is about learning self-control rather than reacting.

It's my opinion that spinning is a self-soothing behavior that some dogs may use for pent-up energy. If the energy goes chronically untapped, the behavior likely becomes a compulsive habit. High-strung horses (Thoroughbreds) who are kept a lot in stalls (rather than pastures) often develop habits like weaving or cribbing, perhaps for the same reason? I don't find that the physical exercise builds up stamina to spin. It seems to recalibrate her mental state and balance her. Last month I took my pup to a try-out with the RCMP for Wilderness Search/Air Scent training. She qualified, making excellent use of her nose and speed. She confirmed that she had plenty of hunt drive. 

I think it was hard on my dog to go through so many homes in such a short time. Perhaps this is also true of the dog you are dealing with. As she settles, unless she has become a nutbar from living too long in uncertainty, she will find her way. That is the same of good dogs and good people; the tough ones may get trounced for a time, but if resilient, they are able to come back from adversity.

I hope that your dog is able to make the full recovery. I appreciate the effort you are making to try to give her that chance.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks Meg, that's really encouraging.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of my GSDs was a terrible spinner when waiting for me to fix their meals. He actually slammed his hip into the glass sliding door with each spin. I cured it with markers. As I walked towards the door with the food he would really get crazy with it. I would just stand still until he would do the same in order to see wtf I was doing. As soon as he stopped, I marked with a "yes" and opened the door to feed.
Since my dogs are well schooled in markers this took maybe 2-3 meals till he got it. I DID have to work on duration for about a week but it worked beautifully. Now he's a statue (ready to explode) and he starts spinning again when I open the door but he does it going in the direction where I put his meal. I don't give a crap about that. I just didn't want him slamming into the glass door.
This dog is as high drive and crazy as many of the terriers I've had but I can raise a finger and he stops in his tracks with whatever he's doing. All with markers!
I've seen many show terriers that were crate spinners. When you keep a high drive dog crated to much, the frustration and stress will create a spinner.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> WOW! Your world is so much scarier than mine.
> 
> IME, most of the spinning behavior is a habit caused because the dog has excited energy and learns that spinning will relieve energy.
> 
> ...



Actually my world isn't that scary at all... I'm just not crazy enough to think that something like that is impossible. Trust me, when you open a crate or kennel and find a bloody mess or a dead dog inside you will reconsider your options to use a 6 inch chain pretty quickly. 

We had a clubmember who used to chain his dog to the crate door, chain of maybe 15 cms long, trust me, he was not amused when he went to fetch his dog for a training exercise and found it covered in blood, front paw hanging at an odd angle and skin pretty much stripped down to the bone. Dog got overexited or angry, we don't know the why's but it looked like he had pawed at the chain, made a backflip and caught its paw in the chain, all went straight from hell to there. Outcome, one dog, nerves and tendons severed, dislocated lower leg, E 2000,= vetbill and early retirement since the damage was permanent. 

Go ahead, use the chain. I'd rather not tempt fate like that tho.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I think we might have a first here. Interesting. While many of the theories offered concerning the origin of this problem differs a bit (and understandably so), many of the suggested methods to address it are very similar to one another. Keep in mind that includes the two suggestions offered, presumably, for compulsive spinners (chain).

Don't know why, but that made me smile.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i disagree with what Nicole said that all the methods provided were essentially the same. 
imo the chain thing falls into a different category entirely 

1. tethering a dog to a post so it won't run off
2. putting up fences and barriers in a house to keep the dog out of certain spaces
3. using a short chain attached to a crate door
4. slapping on a bark collar

ALL of these are methods to BLOCK THE DOG from doing unwanted behaviors that do NOT fall into ANY category that i consider "TRAINING". they are done hoping the dog will "train itself", with no interaction from the human. i don't care at all if some of them might work with some dogs some of the time. i think they are all rather stupid and lazy ways to avoid dealing with problems, and often justified because the owner doesn't have enuff "time". for SURE they allow for a dog to injure itself in the process, which would also be the fault of the OWNER if any injury happened. and that goes for allowing the dog to develop more obsessive behaviors if it happens to have a stronger temperament and more drive than the average show dog  .. to me, that is a dog injury too

a dog may not choke itself to death on a stake out, but a driven dog WILL damage its trachea without realizing the damage it is doing to itself because it will fight thru the pressure ....
...useless for me to give other examples :-(

** Alice certainly provided another good one though, and i have seen dogs with teeth chipped from being kenneled excessively. MANY people have mentioned wearing tails down and requiring docking
... to me it is a low level form of dog abuse

...yes...i take it to that level and call it a form of abuse; thru laziness and a lack of time to work on the problem directly BY THE OWNER
** not the same kind of abuse that gets the headlines, but MY definition is wider and i really don't care to defend it; cause i don't have to .... and won't 

simply put, to me, avoiding problems by adding barriers, blockage and restraints just doesn't belong in a well thought out training program, and can be a double edged sword by making them worse, sometimes resulting in a dog that can't be "fixed" :-(
... off the soapbox


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and before anyone starts "splitting hairs" and writing how they stopped their dog from counter surfing with a fence blocking the kitchen, or how their bark collar stopped the barking....that is NOT the point i was making


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> and before anyone starts "splitting hairs" and writing how they stopped their dog from counter surfing with a fence blocking the kitchen, or how their bark collar stopped the barking....that is NOT the point i was making


Nor was it when I said that the two who agreed on the chaining method was the same. By that, I meant they were merely in agreement. I wasn't intending to make any other comparisons except that many of the suggestions were similar to one another - not in purpose. ](*,)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

rick smith said:


> simply put, to me, avoiding problems by adding barriers, blockage and restraints *just doesn't belong in a well thought out training program*, and can be a double edged sword by making them worse, sometimes resulting in a dog that can't be "fixed" :-(
> ... off the soapbox


"the neat thing about....dog training is that....you don't have to..... like it for it to work.....preventing a dog from doing something is a great way to not form a learned and conditioned behavior." 

I wouldn't tie a dog to a pole to watch school kids run by day after day to keep it from getting to them, but.....

I guess you never restrain a dog with a leash and do all your training in a round pen, horsie style. Off leash is the only way to describe your ridiculous statement above. Real trainer absolutely block and take choices away. That is why most will train with little distraction first...

Do you have any pictures of you with a dog? Has your arm healed up?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

hey Dave...

read my post again in its entirety and pay close attention to the two sentences that follow my FOUR examples and then reconsider if it was ridiculous ...maybe too subtle for some people to consider ? my writing style is to supply enuff dots to make them easier to connect, but maybe that just overloads some readers and they overlook some of the dots ... who really cares ?? ... advice given here is probably rarely taken anyway ... get a lot of "TX for the advice" responses, but i have NEVER read a post here that says "hey, i tried what you said...it worked !! Thanx a bunch " //lol//

and i never said anything about whether a dog had to like something or not ???

i hope others could understand my point is training should involve a HUMAN and a DOG .... not barriers and other restraints set up for the dog to train itself
..... i've used EVERY example i listed ... WHEN i'm working with the dog ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)

nope .... not gonna start an off shoot thread and how to use barriers and blockage either.....it was posted to elaborate on why i thought the short chain approach was NOT a good one and different from the other suggestions ... but if you liked it ... fine with that too ... just state why you do

chill ... i already realize i have no credibility with you ... fine with that too 

online advice is often like pissing in the wind ... back to lurk mode and the people i work with face to face ... 

think i'll save most of my opinions for aggression rehab problems ... more interesting to me anyway

for Ted ... SEVENTY hours a week on aggression ... did i read that correctly ????


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Vote yes for bark collars!!!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

rick smith said:


> hey Dave...
> 
> read my post again in its entirety and pay close attention to the two sentences that follow my FOUR examples and then reconsider if it was ridiculous ...maybe too subtle for some people to consider ? my writing style is to supply enuff dots to make them easier to connect, but maybe that just overloads some readers and they overlook some of the dots ... who really cares ?? ... advice given here is probably rarely taken anyway ... get a lot of "TX for the advice" responses, but i have NEVER read a post here that says "hey, i tried what you said...it worked !! Thanx a bunch " //lol//
> 
> ...


Aaaahhhhh....so...um....what 'bout that pic?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

platz, and ob stick to poke with for non-compliance. j/k..sort of anyhow..


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

thanks Rick. I reread the two sentences you pointed out. I am reconsidering.

I have gone from your idea is ridiculous to just plain idiotic with a side order of you don't know what the **** you are talking about. I appreciate you pointing that out to me. 

From Wikipedia "*The word* *Operant (training/conditioning) can be described as, "an item of behavior that is initially spontaneous, rather than a response to a prior stimulus, but whose consequences may reinforce or inhibit recurrence of that behavior".[*

If I have to have a dog quiet or I get fined, I will put a bark collar on the dog. That is because the collar will correct when the dog needs it, if set properly, while the collar is on and charged. The reason it works so well is the dog controls it without our input. growl/bark, pain stim, quiet. one for one correction. That is training. The dog is learning that with the stimulus of the collar on his neck not to bark or he'll feel pain. I love my dogs. I want to keep them. My neighbors want quiet. We all have to get along and do shit we don't like sometimes. It's how you are a part of a working society.

I am tired of people that don't really live in the same world that I do. You are the ones that are ****ing it up for the rest of us that want suitable consequences for our actions both good and bad (and our dogs) to keep society in line and operating like it should. 

Please, tell me how your arm healed up. Dog bite, right? I remember you were going to be a one armed trainer. Pic of you and a dog? Are you real? Daily training with the Japanese populace should leave you surrounded by folks that stereotypically can use a camera. Not to stereotype.



rick smith said:


> hey Dave...
> 
> read my post again in its entirety and pay close attention to the two sentences that follow my FOUR examples and then reconsider if it was ridiculous ...maybe too subtle for some people to consider ? my writing style is to supply enuff dots to make them easier to connect, but maybe that just overloads some readers and they overlook some of the dots ... who really cares ?? ... advice given here is probably rarely taken anyway ... get a lot of "TX for the advice" responses, but i have NEVER read a post here that says "hey, i tried what you said...it worked !! Thanx a bunch " //lol//
> 
> ...


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> I guess you never restrain a dog with a leash and do all your training in a round pen, horsie style.


Actually, a round pen can be considered a barrier and form of restraint. Otherwise, there would be nothing to make the horse stay there running around in circles.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> Actually, a round pen can be considered a barrier and form of restraint. Otherwise, there would be nothing to make the horse stay there running around in circles.


Well. then, I guess a better description would be that he got out on the plains and monte roberts'ed the mustang into submission after 18 hours. Kind of my point though. Restraint is there, dogs learn, it doesn't matter what we think or want them to do.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Make sure the dog is getting enough exercise. You can dust off the ol ten speed bicycle and teach the dog to jog along side you. Thats what I do with my GSD I teach him to heal on the right so he does not get hit by a car since we drive on the right here. I've been using a prong and choke chain for corrections. Still learning about E collars so far not crazy about them.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Make sure the dog is getting enough exercise. You can dust off the ol ten speed bicycle and teach the dog to jog along side you. Thats what I do with my GSD I teach him to heal on the right so he does not get hit by a car since we drive on the right here. I've been using a prong and choke chain for corrections. Still learning about E collars so far not crazy about them.


google: Walky Dog


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> google: Walky Dog


I have one and I love it.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

There's this, too, but that's not happening until my torn acl is repaired.



Walky dog is holding the lines from tangling in the front wheel.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

The dog in question.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

She's a pretty little dog. O How's she doing with the spinning?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Looks liike a pretty muscular dog (hind legs)?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

She's a pretty girl and has moments of sweetness along with the craziness.

I was surprised at the hind end on her for a dog that's been in a shelter for months. I discovered that if she can't spin in front of a door (like my back door, which doesn't have enough space for her to spin when crowded by the other two dogs) that she will go straight up in the air. So maybe from pretending to be a kangaroo?

At this point, I am trying to figure out what her triggers are and how to manage them, as well as give her as much exercise and out of crate time as possible. She's only been here a week, I think she's getting better, but I suspect that she will be a long term project.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> So maybe from pretending to be a kangaroo?


Ha ha maybe so. Two days ago mine rocketed out of the kennel and as she spun out on concrete she launched straight into my chest, hammering me good with her muzzle. She hit me so hard it gave me a bruise. I don't call her Yard Dart for no good reason that's for sure. LOL I kinda like her drive stupid ways.

Have fun with your wild child. :twisted:


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