# No Service Dogs for PTSD



## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/n...ervice-dogs-warranted-for-war-stress-s/nR3Xm/


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I see many service dogs with PTSD victims at VA hospitals and health clinics. I never thought about who was providing them and paying for their maintenance until now.

VA is far from perfect but I am a supporter of the VA Health System. I base this opinion on personal experience. 

I will say one thing...they provide pills as if they were peanuts. They attempt to medicate every damn thing. I refuse of what they try to prescribe.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I'll probably be crucified for my feelings on this but I tend to agree with them to a certain extent. I'm not knocking the issues of PTSD but I do wonder exactly how much a benefit a dog is in those cases. I can see them as an anxiety reliever for crowded situations maybe. But picking up a cell phone or turning on a light for a PTSD sufferer? 

Is a dog the BEST therapy or coping mechanism? Is the need truly a life-long need as in vision and hearing handicap's? Are there people who never recover from PTSD? What happens to the dog after the person recovers to a certain point? Are they "discharged" as a service dog at some point?

I definitely don't know all the medical issues involved. I've always believed that what ever our veterans need to be made whole should be provided without question. 

On the other hand, I am concerned about the proliferation, in general, of "emotional support" service dogs. I also wonder about the training protocols for them, if any. What establishes a dog trainer as a service dog trainer? Who can truly "certify" a service dog? (I'm mostly talking about ESA's here)

I think it is such a new area that we might not even know the questions to ask yet. But I do think there is abuse of this category of service animal. Not unlike some of the abuse that goes on with handicapped parking spaces.

BTW: While you can't ask someone about their handicap and why they need a service dog, it is permissible to ask the owner what the dog is trained to do and what it's trained response is. This has been deemed a valid question for airlines and public areas so that they can be prepared if something happens on board a plane and the dog reacts in a certain way. I.e. they should be aware that if the dog suddenly starts barking, it isn't just pissed at the guy in the next row. There are several questions they are legally allowed to ask to help root out the fakers.

For those interested here are the guidelines for airlines: http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/20030509.pdf

Craig


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Craig Snyder said:


> I'll probably be crucified for my feelings on this but I tend to agree with them to a certain extent. I'm not knocking the issues of PTSD but I do wonder exactly how much a benefit a dog is in those cases. I can see them as an anxiety reliever for crowded situations maybe. But picking up a cell phone or turning on a light for a PTSD sufferer?
> 
> Is a dog the BEST therapy or coping mechanism? Is the need truly a life-long need as in vision and hearing handicap's? Are there people who never recover from PTSD? What happens to the dog after the person recovers to a certain point? Are they "discharged" as a service dog at some point?
> 
> ...


+1
I agree with you and the VA. Too little research or documentation that a "trained" emotional support service dog is any more effect then an untrained pet.

As an aside I read this AM that some judge in Massachusetts ruled that the State has to pay for a sex change operation for a convicted murderer ! WTF ? I hope it gets reversed at a higher court before the State has to provide the surgery.
murderer


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1
> I agree with you and the VA. Too little research or documentation that a "trained" emotional support service dog is any more effect then an untrained pet.
> 
> As an aside I read this AM that some judge in Massachusetts ruled that the State has to pay for a sex change operation for a convicted murderer ! WTF ? I hope it gets reversed at a higher court before the State has to provide the surgery.
> murderer


 
+2


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I don't know a lot about this subject. But I have noticed a trend of new organizations recently created to train and supply service dogs for veterans.

One of Bernie's pups was donated by her owner to such an organization to become a service dog and was placed directly with the veteran, who suffers from PTSD. Just recently, the organization dropped him and is now not providing any training, after he was promised a trained dog. I wondered why that happened, and now I'm curious whether the org was somehow getting compensated by the VA.

Again, I may not be understanding the situation completely. 

Laura


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I don't know a lot about this subject. But I have noticed a trend of new organizations recently created to train and supply service dogs for veterans.
> 
> One of Bernie's pups was donated by her owner to such an organization to become a service dog and was placed directly with the veteran, who suffers from PTSD. Just recently, the organization dropped him and is now not providing any training, after he was promised a trained dog. I wondered why that happened, and now I'm curious whether the org was somehow getting compensated by the VA.
> 
> ...


Oh that's too bad, I didn't know. Poor Cathy, I think she went to a lot of trouble to place Brisa in that program, so that a vet would be helped, and if I remember correctly, it was covered in the local news, there was a video of the soldier and Brisa. I sure hope someone can help the vet with Brisa.


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## Richard Ramirez (Sep 6, 2011)

I have PTSD. I was told by several health professionals that we could learn to cope with PTSD to a certain extent, but it won't go away. I believe that a great number of vets would do well to have a dog. My dogs have been an immense help and support.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

I understand the hesitation about the lack of research on the effects of "emotional support" service dogs, and the risk that programs of this kind might be abused but I see a few reasons for continuing and developing service dog programs like these.

1) PTSD can be a problem in public crowded situations - an untrained pet is not allowed in those situations whereas a service dog is. It seems that "just having a dog" will remove the support of that dog could provide precisely in the situations where it might be needed.

2) even if the training of a PTSD dog was mainly just Mind Your Manners, that is still crucial to make the dog functional in public spaces, and not something that every vet might be able to do on their own. To be able to provide adult, stable and trained dogs to vets who need and want the support seems important if these relationships are to work well. And I assume that very few of those who really needed such dogs would be able to go out and buy an adult welltrained dog privately.

3) The question of what happens to the dog when it is discharged is an interesting one. Hopefully, a relationship between the dog and owner is a life long one. But it makes sense that there is a third party involved that can place the dog with someone else in need in case the dog is no longer needed or wanted. 

There are unanswered questions, sure, but if all programming is removed due to a lack of funding or incentives, they will also never be answered.

A final thought: if someone wanted to abuse the system, the whole dog set-up which comes with a ton of responsibility, training, on-going contact and involvement. It's more likely that they'd just try to get more prescription drugs, either for themselves or to sell.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Richard Ramirez said:


> I have PTSD. I was told by several health professionals that we could learn to cope with PTSD to a certain extent, but it won't go away. I believe that a great number of vets would do well to have a dog. My dogs have been an immense help and support.


Richard,

I totally agree, but think the same thing could be accomplished with a nice pet or rescue instead of a $25K "service dog" that some fly by night "trainer" has scammed the VA with ?


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Just to clarify.. I'm not against ESA's at all. The programs and research in this area must continue. I am also most decidedly in favor of providing our service men and women whatever resources they need to recover from whatever damage was caused by their service to our country. I believe the same for LE and FF's when they have work related injuries.

I was just pointing out that I can kind of see where the VA is coming from. They "claim" this only impacts about 100 vets. My guess is you will quickly see legislation from someone forcing the VA to cover veterans ESA's. 

The accreditation of ESA's I think is an important one. You are putting a dog out in the public space that should have a certain amount of manners and should have a certain stability to it. How does the public know that proper due diligence has been done while selecting and testing these dogs? If a personal pet is given additional training to serve as an ESA, who signs off on the dog and says it is stable enough to be in public and perform suitably as an ESA? I'm sorry but I don't believe most mental health professionials are well enough versed in animal behavior and training to make that call. Right now I believe that all that is required is a letter from a doctor. 

If a VA doctor approves, and the VA then pays for an ESM, would they then possibly be open to a lawsuit if that dog later bites someone on a train or plane?

Richard.. thank you for your service. As well as all the other vets on this board as I know there are many. Please don't take this in anyway as a military slight or an attempt at minimilizing PTSD. I have absolutely no doubt that in many cases, the right dog can greatly help people.

It's just an area where I think things have moved very fast and the necessary research and regulations haven't quite caught up.

Craig


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

There is a place near me that provides GSDs as service dogs, 

http://www.medicalservicedogs.com/ 

They are a non-profit 501(C)(3) and recently held a fundraiser in which folks could meet the vets and their dogs. It was hard to keep the eyes dry hearing about their stories and the bonds that they shared with the dogs. 

They were in business providing dogs to disabled folks and recently were involved in a VA pilot study providing dogs to vets with PTSD. I don't know what the official outcome of their study will be in terms of effectiveness. 

If you think that this sort of thing is a good idea and want to support them, you can always click to donate.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Ah.. which one to support...

Your suggested one or....

www.freedom*servicedogs*.org

http://patriotpaws.org

www.paveusa.org/

stiggys*dogs*.org/how-to-help/

www.muttswithamission.com/*donate*.html 

http://4pawsforability.org/paws-for-veterans/

www.hero-*dogs*.org/

www.pawsfor*veterans*.com/

www.vetsfwd.org/site/support.php 

*servicedogs*4*service*men.com/

4paws4patriots.org/help.aspx 

www.beforeyougo.us/*service*-*dogs*-for-*veterans* 

www.patriotrovers.org/whatwedo.html

sdvetsadoptpets.org/vet*servicedogs*.html 

That's 14 above plus the one you suggested makes 15 organizations that advertises as 501(c)'s that provide service dogs to veterans. That's just the easy ones I found with a 3 second search on google. So if the VA says about 100 vets are affected by this decision that means each org only needs to provide about 8 ESM dogs per organization to meet the need. That wouldn't seem like a huge problem if you ask me.

I also know that several service clubs like the Lions Clubs, Rotary Clubs, plus veterans clubs also do fundraiser and such toward providing service dogs.

I know many of these groups help provide non-ESM dogs like seeing-eye dogs and other traditional service dogs. I'm sure quite a few of them are very reputable and I'm not knocking any of them.

Again though, how can you be sure any one of these are really doing a good job and all the money goes where you expect it to? Just because they get 501(c) status doesn't mean they are good. It only means they filed the right paperwork and haven't run afoul of anyone yet.

Anyway.. maybe I'm just too cynical as I get older.

Craig


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Craig Snyder said:


> Ah.. which one to support...
> 
> Your suggested one or....
> 
> ...


It also does not mean that there isnt some big bucks being paid out to people that work for the organizations.

I know a glorified secretary that makes about 120,000 a year working for a non-profit...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

The dogs I've seen at VA hospitals and health clinics with PTSD victims did not APPEAR to be traindr for anything specific, nor pure bred but all were quite mellow and well behaved. 

I saw one last week that wouldn't even sit with repeated commands from his Vet. I have the impression that most are a companion, calming factor for the PTSD Vet.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> The dogs I've seen at VA hospitals and health clinics with PTSD victims did not APPEAR to be traindr for anything specific, nor pure bred but all were quite mellow and well behaved.
> 
> I saw one last week that wouldn't even sit with repeated commands from his Vet. I have the impression that most are a companion, calming factor for the PTSD Vet.


 
And hence shouldn't cost the $20,000 apiece that several of these sites quote. 

I can get a Baden dog for that!!! :razz:\\/

Craig


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Craig Snyder said:


> And hence shouldn't cost the $20,000 apiece that several of these sites quote.
> 
> I can get a Baden dog for that!!! :razz:\\/
> 
> Craig


I heard from Thomas that many Baden dogs suffer from PTSD!


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I heard from Thomas that many Baden dogs suffer from PTSD!


I am starting a non profit to outfit Baden dogs who suffer from PTSD with their own service dog. I am going to pay myself 120k a year. It really feels good to help!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

mike finn said:


> I am starting a non profit to outfit Baden dogs who suffer from PTSD with their own service dog. I am going to pay myself 120k a year. It really feels good to help!


I heard that jumping through burning rings of fire and climbing 100 foot ladders really fuks their minds up.:razz:


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Craig Snyder said:


> Ah.. which one to support...
> 
> 
> Again though, how can you be sure any one of these are really doing a good job and all the money goes where you expect it to? Just because they get 501(c) status doesn't mean they are good. It only means they filed the right paperwork and haven't run afoul of anyone yet.
> ...


Agreed, much like dog breeders, a pretty webpage and some hyped up language can go a long ways towards fooling people. With any charity, it is best to investigate and get involved and see if their are delivering on their promises instead of relying on internet propaganda. 

By ways of a follow up....they lost their VA contract, wonder if it had anything to do with the VA stance on service dogs for PTSD.

http://www.wcjb.com/local-news/2012...rganization-still-operational-after-losing-va


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Agreed, much like dog breeders, a pretty webpage and some hyped up language can go a long ways towards fooling people. With any charity, it is best to investigate and get involved and see if their are delivering on their promises instead of relying on internet propaganda.
> 
> By ways of a follow up....they lost their VA contract, wonder if it had anything to do with the VA stance on service dogs for PTSD.
> 
> http://www.wcjb.com/local-news/2012...rganization-still-operational-after-losing-va


It appears there was good reason to terminate the contract. If not VA has many vendor options available appeal the decision.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> It appears there was good reason to terminate the contract. If not VA has many vendor options available appeal the decision.


Did I hear/read incorrectly? I thought the report said there were *unsubstantiated rumors* from ex-employees about illness, uncleanliness and inbreeding (???? WTF cares about inbreeding?), but that the owner has many current statements from inspectors and veterinarians that refute the rumors?

Oh wait I must have forgotten where I live - nowadays all you need are unsubstantiated rumors in order to be condemned in the USA - just ask Lance Armstrong.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Did I hear/read incorrectly? I thought the report said there were *unsubstantiated rumors* from ex-employees about illness, uncleanliness and inbreeding (???? WTF cares about inbreeding?), but that the owner has many current statements from inspectors and veterinarians that refute the rumors?
> 
> Oh wait I must have forgotten where I live - nowadays all you need are unsubstantiated rumors in order to be condemned in the USA - just ask Lance Armstrong.


Appeal the decision if the accusations aren't true.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I heard that jumping through burning rings of fire and climbing 100 foot ladders really fuks their minds up.:razz:


Lee, 

I've never jumped through a ring of fire 

BUT

I fell in to a burning ring of fire
I went down,down,down
and the flames went higher.
And it burns,burns,burns
the ring of fire
the ring of fire.

I think I need a therapy dog now? ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

mike finn said:


> I am starting a non profit to outfit Baden dogs who suffer from PTSD with their own service dog. I am going to pay myself 120k a year. It really feels good to help!


Mike,

Why not provide these poor Baden dogs with their own service human? ;-)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Appeal the decision if the accusations aren't true.


assbackwards!

Really? It's OK with you that a person is screwed because of accusations? I actually hope the VA had something more than accusations, like a valid reason based on fact and proof, because otherwise it just stinks.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> assbackwards!
> 
> Really? It's OK with you that a person is screwed because of accusations? I actually hope the VA had something more than accusations, like a valid reason based on fact and proof, because otherwise it just stinks.


It is just like the here say evidence with that guy that killed his 3rd wife. It depends on the believability of the people who testify. I suspect the ones VA heard from seemed pretty credible. I confusing issue is the breeder was inspected.


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## Richard Ramirez (Sep 6, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Richard,
> 
> I totally agree, but think the same thing could be accomplished with a nice pet or rescue instead of a $25K "service dog" that some fly by night "trainer" has scammed the VA with ?


 I agree Thomas, that all that is necessary would be a therapy certified dog. Personally, I would screen the potential owner just like I normally would.......


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