# What about fight drive?



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

from an e-collar thread, a new thread to avoid a hijack. :



Britney Pelletier said:


> I'm not going to hijack an e-collar thread to turn it into a fight drive debate.. but it's hilarious how close-minded some people can be. Do you have any videos of dogs working in "fight drive"? How does one actually go about teaching it?
> 
> In protection work, dogs operate in two drives: prey and defense. That's it. I know it seems appropriate to complicate things and glorify it even further with extra terms and made up drives, but it's just that simple. Unless you have a clear understanding of what both of these drives mean, how dogs function in them and how they channel between the two, then it's very easy to believe there are additional drives in place.
> 
> We all love to believe our dogs are high-powered beasts that just LOVE to fight a man.. it's just not the case.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've already said all I have to say about it, when I said; "I love it, I'm old fashioned, believe in fight drive, teach fight drive and expect it in a PSD. I've just reached the point in my career I won't argue with folks over it, ha ha. I'm still surprised us old farts were able to ever train a police dog." There is no argument here.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

where's Joby?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I believe in fight drive but I too have been involved in too many discussions to argue about it any more


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

First, *fight drive* has to be *defined* and all parties agree on said definition O


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

These things go on and on and on.

So I have canned my response:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/Drives.htm


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

http://photobucket.com/images/beating a dead horse/


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> from an e-collar thread, a new thread to avoid a hijack. :


If I understand this man's correctly . quite possible the man understands what fight drive is
Do not try to understand what fight drive is .
just put effort to understand animal behavior , prey 、defense , especially what is importan for dog to survive, what the statistical science the outlier mean.

good definition of fighting drive is that dog enjoy fighting at anytime and anywhere.
by doing this ,dog is doing something driven by genetics and experience.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Jack Lee said:


> If I understand this man's correctly . quite possible the man understands what fight drive is
> Do not try to understand what fight drive is .
> just put effort to understand animal behavior , prey 、defense , especially what is importan for dog to survive, what the statistical science the outlier mean.
> 
> ...


ironically , if one understand fight drive , he can understand there is no such thing.
I do believe a limited fight drive , not so salient as prey or defense.


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> First, *fight drive* has to be *defined* and all parties agree on said definition O


 
Exactly Doug. Lack of definitons is what starts arguments. What some trainers say is "fight drive" other call "aggression" and so on an so forth. Active aggression, reactive aggression, fight drive, prey drive, booty drive, fighting instincts, etc. Only the experienced know what they see and know what it is. :smile:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

dog people agreeiing? ROTFLMAO


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> dog people agreeiing? ROTFLMAO


 
Two dog people only agree that a third one is wrong, LOL...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've been asked to post videos before but I'm not permitted. It's against department policy. That said, I think this video is a good demonstration of fight drive. It's an older video. Excuse the "decoy" I don't think he was trained properly, and while the dog did regrip on a couple of occasions, under the circumstances, I see that as acceptable. It may have been prey that took him there, it was fight that kept him there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> from an e-collar thread, a new thread to avoid a hijack. :


I read again . she is near to understand fight drive . but no yet .
it is impossible for a dog to fight in fight drive in ALL time and situations.
but it is possible for some dog to fight in fight drive , IN SHORT time and specific conditions ,BIOLOGICALLY.
It is impossible to train any dogs and activate its fight drive. Because there is intense factor as working dog, by genetic.
Not like prey and defense , fight drive is not so natural , it is MORE artificial for one's convenience to understand.

the biggest argument for no-fight drive is there is no fight-drive dog in wild nature ,otherwise the one can not survive the dogs as a group will not survive.
But this argument is wrong! because BY CHANCE or fluctuation in evolving , it's possible a dog or a group is full of fight drive. 

So these dogs should have more special nerve systems . For example ,emotion is very important , hormone cause dog confident and undervalue opponent and less painful and duration , hormone PUSHING dog forward.

by this understanding ,
1)a dog even is solid as a rock and dominant as a rock , if lacks hormone , the dog is still not so reliable.
2)to seek a very clear head is also in wrong direction.
3)several top policeman share a common view , too much obedience is bad thing , this is lesson from blood . but sports people never understand . 

to study the fight drive , it is very meaningful .


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Jack Lee said:


> I
> 3)several top policeman share a common view , too much obedience is bad thing , this is lesson from blood . but sports people never understand .
> .


How many cops saying this have the wrong dog,
lacking in drive and fire,
or too heavy a hand in obedience?

Jack, could you give us a name and brief description of three of these "top policemen" ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

fight drive or not. 

I have seen dogs that do "appear" to like to fight the man, who can say for sure, none of us are mind readers.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Teaching fight drive...like teaching genetics![-(


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for me, a good indication of fight drive might also be a dog who remains aggressive on a suspect who goes passive just as much as a bad guy who keeps fighting the dog.....
... of course i know a good handler would probably out the dog at that time 
... but maybe the resistance factor will tend to keep a lot of dogs more dialed in and motivated due to adding some frustration maybe ??

....or to put it another way, a dog with a lot of fight could be showing behavior that might be interpreted as saying : "start moving damn it, so i can kick your ass some more !" ... just wondering ??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I trained a dog once..that had some rag work, and a little civil work..but no bites on a sleeve or suit.

on the first session the 5 yr old dog was doing 150 foot sends on a suit, and in my opinion was seriously trying to fukk me up..bit right through a euro joe suit and bloodied me up pretty good.

I told the guy he did not need "protection" training persay...but massive control work...that dog screamed like the Van Leeuwens "Spike" when you gave him a threatening gesture...even from a long distance away...I could only call it a "battle cry"...

I worked the dog 4 times and we took her and entered a hardest hitting contest, the dog hit the guy in the lower chest (the targeting work did not help much by then) and doubled the guy over and sent him back about 12 feet...literally knocked him out of the barn that the contest was being held in...dog popped off shortly after and grabbed his bicep and mangled it through his suit...

dog was a fast lane pitbull... 48 lb female...with human aggression...a missile..

I had to tell the event photographer who was in the ring taking pics to get out, that the dog was 100% serious..

everyone was laughing, cause the dog was so small and did not look imposing, thought I was just hyping the dog, or being stupid...

we pulled the dog from the PP tournie, because the guys only had scratch pants and sleeves, one suit between 3 guys...the guy that took the hardest hitting bites was in full agreement that the dog should not compete in the tournament, because it was gonna fukk somebody up for sure...he told me he was scared of the dog..I don't blame him, I was kinda scared as well, especially when she tried to climb up under the suit, to chew my stomach out...

so to say any dog never likes to fight a man is silly, that dog had no real equipment focus, actually tried to get around the equipment sometimes, and again, I couldnt read the dogs mind, but I would say the dog liked to fight people..and did.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> for me, a good indication of fight drive might also be a dog who remains aggressive on a suspect who goes passive just as much as a bad guy who keeps fighting the dog.....
> ... of course i know a good handler would probably out the dog at that time
> ... but maybe the resistance factor will tend to keep a lot of dogs more dialed in and motivated due to adding some frustration maybe ??
> 
> ....or to put it another way, a dog with a lot of fight could be showing behavior that might be interpreted as saying : "start moving damn it, so i can kick your ass some more !" ... just wondering ??


what about a dog that goes berserk over a person that raises their hand in a crowd of people, and will fight that passive person in a muzzle? basically seeking to fight someone that volunteers themselves as an opponent?

my friends dog will do this...man women, teenager..doesnt matter.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sure it's a fighter Joby,,,,,,
.... as well as an anti-social civil misfit

btw, hope your friend doesn't take him out to crowds in a muzzle and enjoy showing that side of him tho


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> sure it's a fighter Joby,,,,,,
> .... as well as an anti-social civil misfit
> 
> btw, hope your friend doesn't take him out to crowds in a muzzle and enjoy showing that side of him tho


dog is not anti social at all..he is a lover..not a fighter..muzzle is optional..doesnt matter...at least I dont "think"...

have seen and participated a few times in the demo....at training...just a good focused "alert" accompanied by a good fight if allowed..

I admit it is a trained response..alert is given...dog looks for first person to move...and will engage on that...

but one dog I would say likes to fight..

I JUST DONT GET IT...

if a dog will fight someone on command, without being forced to, or even without being commanded to based on eye contact?.......how can one say he does not "like it"? or even look forward to it?


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> How many cops saying this have the wrong dog,
> lacking in drive and fire,
> or too heavy a hand in obedience?
> 
> Jack, could you give us a name and brief description of three of these "top policemen" ?



JIM , if you want to know their understanding , I can give you their telephone number .
One cop believes he can not compete isreal army dog , only this exception .
I posted the malinois in china , that guy trained the dog , he and his friends always laugh at the obedience competition of policedogs, that is just show for position promotion.

They don't know fight drive , because the knowledge system is different .
but chanc is they can do the patrol dog , and no problem .

The problem is not easy to negate one's own dog , until bad thing happens . 
I remember , loucastle once said , he saw many extreme dogs in this planet , but he prefer his stake test . It really make sense . 
Also that test is in deepinto dog'soul .
Picking dog is about the soul . fightdrive is about the understanding of the soul. 

there are many active aggression types , and signs of working ability .but the type of right soul is smaller .
that is the significance of fight drive .


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I've been asked to post videos before but I'm not permitted. It's against department policy. That said, I think this video is a good demonstration of fight drive. It's an older video. Excuse the "decoy" I don't think he was trained properly, and while the dog did regrip on a couple of occasions, under the circumstances, I see that as acceptable. It may have been prey that took him there, it was fight that kept him there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw


It was actually defense that kept him there.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> dog people agreeiing? ROTFLMAO



LOL.. exactly. 

Which is why I have no interest in participating in this thread ... plus, I haven't been a Police K9 Handler/Trainer for 30 years (pick a large number, really) so I don't know anything. :mrgreen:


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Gregory Doud said:


> Exactly Doug. Lack of definitons is what starts arguments. What some trainers say is "fight drive" other call "aggression" and so on an so forth. Active aggression, reactive aggression, fight drive, prey drive, booty drive, fighting instincts, etc. Only the experienced know what they see and know what it is. :smile:


+1


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> How many cops saying this have the wrong dog,
> lacking in drive and fire,
> or too heavy a hand in obedience?
> 
> Jack, could you give us a name and brief description of three of these "top policemen" ?



jim , that guy confirm his belief in his smell detection experience . to this degree , he really wants to publish an essay on relationship of handler and dog . And when he saw sch3 dog from German , he immediately identify the problem :the dog's mind is too much controlled.

For service dog , it is much good for dog to work for itself . this is the point .
If I read correctly ,I feel some regret at David's comment on the dog in his video , but ,for me , it is the sign of working stability . Good dog ,and good train .


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> First, *fight drive* has to be *defined* and all parties agree on said definition O



There is NO good definition about what pornography is and is not . but ,you can know pretty much when you see .
There is also NO good definition about what complex science is , but top scientists from all disciplines are honored to discuss about it .


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

*por·nog·ra·phy/pôrˈnägrəfē/*

Nounrinted or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

..."1)a dog even is solid as a rock and dominant as a rock , if lacks hormone , the dog is still not so reliable."...

Uh, I may be misunderstanding exactly what this means, but it seems you think that hormones make or break the dog?

I know there are more than just male/female hormones, but my dog is neutered and with or without testosterone he will jack someone up......splain that please.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

did you see this jack ??
i posted it on your other thread ,,,

Hey Jack
- in case you haven't figured it out yet ....

NOBODY is gonna take your opinion that a dog who goes out and picks up a tire is demonstrating fight drive...NOBODY

if you think it is a valid test, which you obviously do, then Do it and CLEARLY show the results of it with at least 20-30 dogs...any size any breed 
- as in : a dog picks up tire on its own and than a vid of the same dog showing fight drive in any protection related session you plan out
- or, do it in reverse ...show the protection related fight drive first and than do a tire test; maybe the dog just never got a chance to pick one up 

- find a friend to put em on youtube and everyone here will watch em
- and don't add political comments or they will get censored and we won't be able to watch em

otherwise, this is just too easy to make jokes about, whether they believe in fight drive or not, and it is a total waste of your valuable time that you could be spending testing dogs to prove your theory
- since i recall you mentioned something about some chinese K9 leos that believe in it too, go ahead and include their dogs too, even if they already tested positive on tires b4 they were trained as PSDs ... that should make testing go even quicker 

***plus it would make the argument of whether or not fight drive exists rather useless ...start with your dog ... what breed is it by the way ?

i sure don't believe it's related behavior either, but i've seen stranger animal stuff that nobody would believe if it hadn't been filmed :
- wild adult leopard that killed a baboon momma but took her baby under it's wing until it finally got cold and died
- wild african lion that liked to keep gazelles (or maybe impala ?) for buddies rather than eat em

otherwise (and it's not a chinese saying so it may not make sense), you are "pissing in the wind"
.... (translated to simpler english - you are wasting your time trying to convince anyone this opinion of yours is true)

last but not least ... i know a 60 pound Tosa that loves to pick up large tires and carry them around ... never was trained to do it ... the dog has NO fight in it whatsoever and years ago these dogs were bred to fight ,,,, so what went wrong with this dog ????


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

rick smith said:


> did you see this jack ??
> i posted it on your other thread ,,,
> 
> Hey Jack
> ...


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

rick smith said:


> did you see this jack ??
> i posted it on your other thread ,,,
> 
> Hey Jack
> ...


"wild african lion that liked to keep gazelles (or maybe impala ?) for buddies rather than eat em"

do you know 2 wild african lions 70years hunted men and carried to their caves but did not eat just for fun?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I have seen footage of a lioness who snatched a baby gazelle, she did not eat it but nurtured it like it was her own young, it was quite perverse...it went on for a few days until a male lion ambushed her and took it. Does that sound like the same footage Rick ?


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Fight drive is probably just prounounced prey for many, a dog that responds to a challange without going into the more aggresive state that defence is, not only "play" but a deeper and stronger motivation behind it. If we talking about lou´s stake out test a dog with fightdrive according is just that, a dog that responds to the persons challange but without so much aggresion that identify defencedrive, nothing more "mystical" than what this dog is doing here, especially in the later parts of the stake out,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQcAE9ZkHo

This is the definition of fightdrive, a dog that likes to struggle/fight just of the enjoyment of the challange/fight, not the same as just playing tug of war with a dog even if I guess you can see some fightdrive also there. I can add that when the police in their selectiontest here talks about fightdrive and measure that they lumps prey and fight togheter. Prey is then the catching and intresst of a preyobject where the fighttingdrive is the actuall intensity and power of struggle and figting with the decoy and the ability to whitstand this in also unfamiliar environments. So in short fightdrive is what drives a policedog, the motor, which make him struggle harder if pressed, or not give upp when tired in a search for people or objects. So a dog with strong fightdrive according to this definition is a dog which is strong in both hunt,prey and fightingdrive.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

maggie..re: "I have seen footage of a lioness who snatched a baby gazelle, she did not eat it but nurtured it like it was her own young, it was quite perverse...it went on for a few days until a male lion ambushed her and took it. Does that sound like the same footage Rick ?"

i think so ... some explained it that because the lioness was not part of a pride she was trying to mother something on her own ... mixed up brain .. went on for some time; she did it with more than one gazelle and the locals knew about her ... later on, some other researcher showed up to check it out further to film it ... really weird stuff

the leopard incident happened when they were filming a leopard/baboon kill ... leopard didn't realize their was a baby hanging on...after scarfing up momma baboon, the baby drops off and rather than continue eating it too, the leopard becomes fascinated by the baby and carries it around like a cub in her mouth even letting it lay on her to stay warm ... pretty weird too, for animals that naturally hate each other


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm another "old fart" that believes in fight drive.

One of our most competent "Wesensrichter" always emphasised the "fight drive" that the dog showed and not just the grips. Admittedly we were in sport competition but I think that most of today's up and coming "experts" are theoretical professionals and have not learned the hard way, i.e. through watching and listening in all kinds of weather and then making up their own minds from reading what they see.

As I see it, perfect grips without fight drive are many and often overrated.

The grips can tell you a lot about the dog, especially if they were perfectly set but then loosened under pressure.

The dog that goes in without hesitation but with force and hinders the decoy wherever he sets the grip would be my choice in sport but especially in police work.

It would be interesting to discuss how "fight drive" sets itself forth genetically instead of discussing the genetic grips. I've seen dogs win on points that hung on to the sleeve like a wet and heavy blanket.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> Fight drive is probably just prounounced prey for many, a dog that responds to a challange without going into the more aggresive state that defence is, not only "play" but a deeper and stronger motivation behind it. If we talking about lou´s stake out test a dog with fightdrive according is just that, a dog that responds to the persons challange but without so much aggresion that identify defencedrive, nothing more "mystical" than what this dog is doing here, especially in the later parts of the stake out,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQcAE9ZkHo
> 
> This is the definition of fightdrive, a dog that likes to struggle/fight just of the enjoyment of the challange/fight, not the same as just playing tug of war with a dog even if I guess you can see some fightdrive also there. I can add that when the police in their selectiontest here talks about fightdrive and measure that they lumps prey and fight togheter. Prey is then the catching and intresst of a preyobject where the fighttingdrive is the actuall intensity and power of struggle and figting with the decoy and the ability to whitstand this in also unfamiliar environments. So in short fightdrive is what drives a policedog, the motor, which make him struggle harder if pressed, or not give upp when tired in a search for people or objects. So a dog with strong fightdrive according to this definition is a dog which is strong in both hunt,prey and fightingdrive.


Erik, that description sounds like strong survival instinct....which may or may not require fight. Just doesn't have the component of flight which makes it nerve.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

In my eyes “fight drive” does exist but it is one drive that I believe relies heavily on proper training to develop. You keep adding physical, mental, and environmental pressure on the dog until you have a dog that appears to react without prey or defense. The dog fights man and the reward is the fight itself. The dog is so confident in it’s abilities that it knows it will win every time. It knows that it can bring the fight to the man…. In effect, “I will make you fight me and I will defeat you”.
Picture a professional boxer. He stands in the corner until the bell rings and then he brings the fight to his opponent. When the bell rings again he is finished fighting. This is what Ideally I want to see in a dog with fight drive.


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

Terminology is really what's messing this whole topic up. Aggression, active aggression, reactive aggression, fight drive, fighting drive, fighting instincts, combat drive, prey drive, booty drive, defense drive, self-defense drive, survival drive, etc. IMO, just see and understand what the dog is showing you without worrying about so much about defining things perfectly. - Greg


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Can't be the terminology. I have been told at least several hundred times that all this micro specific terminolgy enables trainers to carry on a knowledgable discussion with each other. Words like sharp, prey drive, etc, etc, is supposed to fascilitate a good discussion because all trainers understand the terminology and are on the same page.. It has to be that they just don't know what they are looking at in the first place. :wink: That would be the "other" option.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Then there's some that like the cloud 'terminology' offers.
They get to hide from, refute to others and even deny to themselves what the dog in front of them limitation is..


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> Then there's some that like the cloud 'terminology' offers.
> They get to hide from, refute to others and even deny to themselves what the dog in front of them limitation is..


I think that pretty much hit the nail on the head Randy.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Gregory Doud said:


> Terminology is really what's messing this whole topic up. Aggression, active aggression, reactive aggression, fight drive, fighting drive, fighting instincts, combat drive, prey drive, booty drive, defense drive, self-defense drive, survival drive, etc. IMO, just see and understand what the dog is showing you without worrying about so much about defining things perfectly. - Greg



Thumbs up! Few people actually know how to do so though..


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what REALLY messes topics up is they stray off topic :-(

a guy comes out with a weird idea about what shows fight drive in a dog.
- gets the usual sarcasm and jokes since it's easy to go that route
- he is dead serious 
- then others debate what he is really trying to define
- then he disappears while the side topics get tossed in
- then he starts to give some back up opinions but that just gets him in a deeper hole
- and gives some more abstract relationships about dog behavior

- i say if that's what he thinks, great ... show it .. demo it .. test it
-- cause it shoulda been obvious to him NO one is gonna be swayed to accept his theory, and it could only apply to dogs big enuff to pick up a tire, which is absurd, since i have seen first hand some very small dogs that showed EXTREME fight drive 
...but whoops...not enuff (big) dogs available for him to do that 

if picking up heavy objects was an indicator or predictor of a dog's "fight drive" (no matter how it's defined), it would be common knowledge in the knowledgeable dog world...from that point on, this thread bores me (but i get bored easily)

...nothing wrong with going outside the box, but on this one, sorry Jack 

- how about passing on some tips about how Chinese K9 leos train and work their dogs...i could get in to that thread !! 
(i've seen some work that didn't impress me)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Just dont ask where the wash outs go....yikes


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

rick smith said:


> what REALLY messes topics up is they stray off topic :-(
> 
> a guy comes out with a weird idea about what shows fight drive in a dog.
> - gets the usual sarcasm and jokes since it's easy to go that route
> ...



There is no FD expert in china, to my knowledge .When I tried to prove strong prey is the key of F.D and make my own theory coherent ,I doubted there is such thing as F.D. there is only reliability which is the ultimate aim .
But only starting from strong prey , one can go through the map of these drives and not get lost . 
The result : strong and forceful prey ( a easy and safe way) is not necessary if the dog have high escape threshold and confident enough . 
So ,there are more dog capable of fighting successfully. even though there is some difference of reliability . (certainly much complicted ).
-------------------
by studying F.D , it really enriched my knowledge and exprirenced much fun in the course . I can do my PPD much much better by myself confidently.
-----------
AS for policedog, china is not good at sports dog , so some want to learn something from sports , some of them are surely getting lost .
According to them , the whole level is near the top in the world . One reason is breeding by themselves . And malin is not so highly appreciated .
Here again , I think to keep and preserve FD , one should be careful of putting dog in conflict (auss). maybe this is one of the reason for better performance of Some china k9, always in reinforcing. and less correction and less obedience 
----------------
Long enough , but , joke again, just for fun!
in some dog there is a (small ) motor that could be named protection drive , a kind of sacrifice drive, a valuable trait at life and death situation . many versions on protection theory in US have not discuss this kind of behavior. 

------------------
English is not my naive language , I can not think in your way.
I surely bored many people .sorry .


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jack, do you know what is involved for you to import a god from another country? Maybe that’s how you already got your dogs? Is it even allowed? I think sooner than later dog sports will become much more popular in your country. When we are talking about the number of people there it doesn’t take much for you guys to overwhelm the supply. Is there much breeding going on there? What is your opinion as how the view point of the people of your country has changed regarding dogs? Sorry to derail but did not know if this would make to be a thread of itself?


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Jack, do you know what is involved for you to import a god from another country? Maybe that’s how you already got your dogs? Is it even allowed? I think sooner than later dog sports will become much more popular in your country. When we are talking about the number of people there it doesn’t take much for you guys to overwhelm the supply. Is there much breeding going on there? What is your opinion as how the view point of the people of your country has changed regarding dogs? Sorry to derail but did not know if this would make to be a thread of itself?


I can ask if you want to get your dog here. But it is said you can take dog WITH you by plane ,no problem. please check if you really do .
dog sports will be more popular ,but , for laypeople good dog is what they want and they do not understand train.
sports malinois are from belgium ,that big famous kennel, but adult male dogs are only 2 . ring1 and ph1.
people almost never eat their own dogs , just others, and not all people eat dogs . pet dog are popular very quickly.
If you want to sell dog , please make you famous (in anyway) ,sell to "rich" area and "rich" people, so they can have better lives , by this way ,you don't worry you dog any more.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Britney Pelletier said:


> LOL.. exactly.
> 
> Which is why I have no interest in participating in this thread ... plus, I haven't been a Police K9 Handler/Trainer for 30 years (pick a large number, really) so I don't know anything. :mrgreen:


I have to disagree with the post you made in the other thread.Like anything when we make absolute statements then we set ourselves up for disagreement. I do happen to believe in fight drive. As a matter of fact we cultivate it in our IPO training. However I also believe that very few people know how to identify and to use it in an effective training program. I was going to refer to the Lance Collins article that shows a graph, where prey drive, defense drive and fight drive relate to each other, but somehow the link no longer works. Lance will be in Lenoir, North Carolina in 2 weeks doing a 3 day seminar (April 20-22). I suggest you attend. He is a master at bringing it out of the dog and utilizing it. 

However there is a short window of time available to cultivate fight drive to where it can be a part of the dogs makeup in IPO. If a training system has had a dog on the helper before the age of 12 months then it will be unlikely to be able to cultivate fight drive in a useful manner, particularly if it is a high nerve, high prey drive dog. You also have to have a helper who understands how to maintain it, especially with the high nerve/high prey dog. Even Lance is having a difficult time maintaining this with his own dog because of a lack of experienced helpers currently at our club, and with our main helper's work schedule only permitting him to come out 2 to 3 times a month. 

When you can see the dog using the right drive in the right situation it is a thing of beauty. Fight drive usefulness in IPO is most evident in the guarding phases and in the initial strike on the sleeve in re-attacks. If the dog is jumping like a kangaroo in the bark and hold, it is definitely not in fight drive.


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