# Prey Lock



## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Can someone help me with this please? :???:

What is prey locked? 

Is it the dog is focussed too much on the object rather than the man?

How do you train to prevent this?

Does prey lock mean hectic?

Does too much play with me encourage hecticness?

Thanks for any help


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Does too much play with me encourage hecticness?*

Sue that part I would not see. I have had dogs out here sit and do nothing towards the decoy. They said, "Oh the dog is prey locked." Right! Try has no drive. Hecticness to me is a dog that doesn't understand how to use the outlet or venue you are working it in. 

We had a Malinois some time back that was spinning like a top, hectic drive. After suiting up two decoys and having the owner sit the dog at heel, both decoys approached the handler in a calm fashion. Without knowing who was going to attack the handler, one did and the dog got the bite. After a few short sessions, the dog never showcased this behavior again!

Prey locked...need a decoy who can read a dog and bring out action without defense, then see what gets locked. My bet is the dog's jaws on the decoy's arm! :mrgreen: Now that's prey locked, and funny, I don't care who you are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:razz:


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

If you get a chance to read Lance Collin's article he describes what he
is looking for in a dog at a trial. Locked in prey means that the dog is 
working in his prey drives rather than a more preferred balanced drive between
aggression and prey. (There is a lot of ways to describe it.) Dogs can be 
fixated on equipment whether it be the sleeve or a suit. So the bark and hold
and the guarding phases can sound weak "give me the ball, give me the ball"
as opposed to "I am going to hurt you if you move". Some people can't see the
difference. Some people don't care. And you can train a dog to look at the helper
for a bite, which makes harder to tell. Prey usually doesn't mean
hectic, but hectic can be taught or allowed. Oneway you can tell if your dog is in
prey drive is if there is a difference in your dog's barking when the sleeve (or suit)
is off as opposed to being on the man. Also, good aggression in my opinion and good
balance make a dog work through problems where a high prey dog tends to
break down. (there have been books written about prey and defense alone)
AG


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am confused a bit as to what you are trying to ask. If you are asking if your dog looks hectic, the answer is no. I did not see anything like that. 

If you are worried about "locked" in prey, well, that is kinda sillly as well. There is aggression in a high prey drive dog as well. No need to go digging into defense.

Each time you work a dog, you reward the dog for a behavior. If you are "just working in prey" then that is what you are rewarding.

Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfm_Tzk5PfA

I do not see "balanced" drives here, but the performance is for the most part correct. This is a prey dog, and that is what he is. There is only so many times a dog can work on a helper before he no longer takes him seriously, and is just showing the correct face and bark to get his reward.

I wouldn't worry about all of these silly things, and just train the dog. One of the problems with dog sports is that you have many many repetitions to "create" the look that you need. Just train the dog. You have what looks to be a nice one, I hope that he turns out to be a world beater.


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## Rebecca Samoska (Jun 6, 2009)

I'm also interested in a little more depth explaining this. How do you help a young dog to not get focused on the toy/sleeve without pressuring them so much, that they go immediately into defense? (unless that is what you want?).

Do you ask for aggression from the dog from the get go? If shown, do you immediately go back to prey and reward with a bite, or do they continue to challenge them, then reward the show of strength.

How much is too much for a young dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: How do you help a young dog to not get focused on the toy/sleeve

How is this even possible ?? Why would you ever think that it could be ?? I have known a lot of people that teach their dog that when the sleeve is dropped, they need to "focus" on the man, but it is bullshit. I don't know anyone out there rewarding the dog with a bare arm.

I think that if a dog was truly focused on "the man" then helpers would be getting bitten, and stop working the dog.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Isn't the best showing SchH dog a dominant dog? If you are going to practice bite work with a dog every week, he's going to catch on real quick that nothing bad is going to happen to him and that the whole thing is a fun game. A dominant dog will become angry when a helper tries to control him in any way so he appears aggressive which is true but does this mean that he is protective?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> How is this even possible ?? Why would you ever think that it could be ?? I have known a lot of people that teach their dog that when the sleeve is dropped, they need to "focus" on the man, but it is bullshit. I don't know anyone out there rewarding the dog with a bare arm.


ARE YOU FRICKEN KIDDING I will offer you a chance to recant the above statement just because there ain't a single person on this earth who hasent said or done something unbelievably stupid.
If you stand by what you printed above you have lost every ounce of credibility I have given you. The rest of the lemmings on here can scamper around you and your babbling.
Stick with the ring sports people 90% of them don't have a clue and they suck up just about any thing you can belch at them. For Fuk sakes, damn :lol:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Can someone help me with this please? :???:
> 
> What is prey locked?
> 
> ...


You should sit down with your helper's and coach/training director these are the sorts of questions that should be discussed and explained during and after training as there happening. 
Places like this are great for discussion but learning? meh not this stuff every club/group has a different language and method's.
Dont just sit and wonder about this shit ask the people that are helping you train your dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So your helper has never dropped the sleeve after an escape bite ?? You go and pick up the dog every time ?? From the very beginning, we teach the dog with the tug for the out, we play with the rag, ect ect, and so you teach your dog to bite you if you let him win the tug or the rag ?? Is that what you are saying ??

So lets take this one step further, if the dog is focused on the man, and not the sleeve, then why bite something that has little value in making the man stop hitting him, and is useless in dominating the man ?? How much of a reaction is the dog getting from biting the sleeve ?? If you were to start a strong pup teaching him that biting you has actual value as far as dominating the man, then why bother with the one thing that gets NO REACTION at all ??

Gets interesting doesn't it ?? We teach the young pup to bite the tug, and many get angry when the pup targets the hand to get the tug quicker. I don't know of too many people that will hold on while the pup is biting their hand, they drop the tug.

What about the pulling ?? What about the correcting the dog for putting his feet on you ? What about the going behind the helper to avoid the stick hits that the dog is unable to stop through dominant behavior ??

Maybe I am completely wrong, but look at all the different ways that dogs do things...........BUT STAY ON THE SLEEVE.

Be nice to hear how you explain this focus on the man, and "serious" but the dog will walk away with the sleeve.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> You should sit down with your helper's and coach/training director these are the sorts of questions that should be discussed and explained during and after training as there happening.
> Places like this are great for discussion but learning? meh not this stuff every club/group has a different language and method's.
> Dont just sit and wonder about this shit ask the people that are helping you train your dog.


Hi Mike, I just asked about prey lock because it was mentioned in the thread. I don't see it but I always like to hear what others say.

I'm not a newbie, we've titled a very difficult, aggressive, off-breed dog to SchH II without a club or training director or mentor. We did this by travelling to different clubs, attending seminars, asking questions & learning from everyone--we learned from everyone. In the beginning or my retired SchH dog's training lots of very experienced people said we'd never title him--that made us more determined than ever. At the end of his SchH career, a very difficult SchH judge said he was a great dog & ready for national competition.... I always respect & listen to everyone... I'm still interested & motivated even after 8 years of constant quest.

Just wanted to add that the helper said Quinn is very clear-headed. In this case I agree. I think this helper is excellent. I think Quinn needs some grip work. I like the head shake--some people do not like it.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Of course they're fixated on the sleeve, otherwise there would be leg, nuts, stomach and face bites. Do you really want a dog that's not equipment fixated? lol


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Just wanted to add that the helper said Quinn is very clear-headed. In this case I agree. I think this helper is excellent. I think Quinn needs some grip work. I like the head shake--some people do not like it.


I am not sure why you like the head shake. IF the dog shakes the whole sleeve with no movement
of the mouth (shark) then not big deal, but if the grip gets chewy or slips then it is a big deal.
I would just caution how it affects the grip during the threat if you continue to allow it. 
If your grip is full and strong and there is no movement under the threat it might 
not be a big deal. 

Mike good posts.

Personally, I would poop if after dropping the sleeve my dog just focused on it
while it was on the ground and not the helper. I would want a dog to focus back
on the man and that is why a helper should never drop the stick. And when there
is some miscommunication between helper and handler sometimes the helper gets
bit for real.  

And certainly some dogs who show good aggression in the bark and hold are actually
being aggressive over the sleeve for the sleeve. And, yes, some dogs in good fight 
drive, can be in balanced drive over and over with the same helper in the same scenario.
Good training is good training.
.
AG


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Anita Griffing said:


> I am not sure why you like the head shake. IF the dog shakes the whole sleeve with no movement
> of the mouth (shark) then not big deal, but if the grip gets chewy or slips then it is a big deal.
> I would just caution how it affects the grip during the threat if you continue to allow it.
> If your grip is full and strong and there is no movement under the threat it might
> ...


Hi Anita, If the dog shakes naturally why change it? I know we spent lots of time with Ivan training my retired SchH dog to push in instead of pulling down (he shakes also) because the grip might look less than full. Ivan said we could lose a couple of points for the grip. It worked for a while, but he reverted after about a year without a certain kind of training technique.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike I agree with Jeff on this . I'll be honest and I'm sure I'm going to catch the rath of other PSD Handlers and trainers for saying this but I have no problem slipping a sleeve and NOT having the K9 redirect on the agitator in certification or competition type traing scenerio . 

We train for the street as well as competition . Our many successes in competition has gotten us a foundation run by citizens that raises money for us . They have purchased several dogs , a training facility , training fields , trips to training seminars and the list goes on . Our real successes on the street have gotten us many badguys locked up and off the street , the trust and respect of our Officers and citizens who have come to our aid many times and saved us from cuts during tough budgetting times . 

For competition for most dogs I work with I want it more of a game . The dogs perform much better then if they are going in there with the mindset that they have to fight for their lives with the decoy . 

For street training it's a different story . The K9 sees the decoy in a totally different light and I wouldn't think of having the dog either take his eyes off the suspect or be his buddy afterwards and it's a very is transition for the dog to make . I don't think folks give dogs enough credit for how situationally aware they can be . The ques for competition work be it sport or PSD competition are many and obvious and vastly different from the real situations a PSD or sport dog may find themselves in if they are also trained to protect and or search out suspects . 

Some sports dogs may benefit from always redirecting back on the decoy and seeing the decoy as more of a threat based on those dogs individual characteristics but from what I've seen in sports training I think it's an overused technique with far too much time but into it for too little benefit , if any . Just my opinion though .


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Hi Anita, If the dog shakes naturally why change it? I know we spent lots of time with Ivan training my retired SchH dog to push in instead of pulling down (he shakes also) because the grip might look less than full. Ivan said we could lose a couple of points for the grip. It worked for a while, but he reverted after about a year without a certain kind of training technique.


If you don't care about points or your dog doesn't shake on the bite or under the threat,
you don't have to change it.  One of the tests that schutzhund does (a part of the test)
is what does the grip do under the threat. So to some judges they consider it
a weakness if the grip suffers or especially if it suffers under the threat. Whether we
agree or not that is a fact. Do you know why people train the pull or the push? (my favorite
the push) Because it is a way for a dog to 'counter' that doesn't lose you points. 
JMO.
AG


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Guess I view how I like my Schutzhnd in a more traditional way.
My dog must stay with in the Schutzhund rules as dose the helper.
I dont know for sure but have been around long enough to say with a fair amount of certainly that my dog will pass a Schutzhund III routine with the helper having nothing but a stick. 
The sleeve is more important to the helper not to my dog.
I also believe that I could give "no sell"Jim my Schutzhund dog and with a little retuning by Jim or any department they would have them self's a mighty fine street fighter and partner.
Jim not sure why any one would get to worked up about caring the sleeve so long as the dogs head is in the rite place out and back to work. 
I wish my dog did carry better the only time my dog carries well is when were done and heading off the field.Thats still good though when were done he's a little charged up he'll bites me or tries to bite me if he dosent have the sleeve or something in his mouth.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike I'll agree the more traditional way was better when it was more about the continued improvement of the breed . My understanding is it is now more a game and it doesn't necessarily look for a dog that will further the GSD in breeding , but simply performs correctly to the judges understanding of the rules . 

If the rules required you do the III on a decoy without the sleeve I'd say your on the right track . 

I'm sure your dog would do fine with us . You know how to get ahold of me if you need a place for your dog . I just don't think the focussing on the decoy is that big a deal . I also don't care how the carry the sleeve either . With some dogs it may be a benefit but with most I also think it's alot of extra work with not enough benefit to justify taking up that training time when it could be used for something better .


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Mike I'll agree the more traditional way was better when it was more about the continued improvement of the breed . My understanding is it is now more a game and it doesn't necessarily look for a dog that will further the GSD in breeding , but simply performs correctly to the judges understanding of the rules .
> 
> If the rules required you do the III on a decoy without the sleeve I'd say your on the right track .
> 
> I'm sure your dog would do fine with us . You know how to get ahold of me if you need a place for your dog . I just don't think the focussing on the decoy is that big a deal . I also don't care how the carry the sleeve either . With some dogs it may be a benefit but with most I also think it's alot of extra work with not enough benefit to justify taking up that training time when it could be used for something better .


Exhibiting the character of our dogs has always taken president over a polished Schutzhund but we work very hard on both.
More judges are giving allot more consideration to the dog character and awarding it.
Not sure if you know this Canadian K9 instructer/handler I think he has given K9 seminars in the twin cities
His name is Doug Deacon he is also a old school SV Schutzhund judge who is very respected in the Schutzhund comunity he has never wavered in his judging only awarding high scored to dogs that truly brought real game.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

That's good to hear . I mostly hear about how watered down Schtz. has gotten . I'd like to see the same thing happen with our competition . Have it turn into a more realistic scenerio type . Where the dog needs to be more serious . Sadly it's more of a game where how pretty the dog looks in it's work is judged not in what the individual dog brings .


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

While I don't think dogs are all that brilliant, I am pretty sure that a dog after how many hundreds of repetitions can figure out that the worst the guy is gonna do is hit him with a padded stick, and so what concerns me is that people think that the dog is crap if he doesn't go after the helper if the sleeve is dropped.

How many videos have we watched here where the dog takes the helper down on the courage test and runs back to the handler with the sleeve ??

So here is your question Mike, your dog knocks snot bubbles out of the helper on a courage test and has him on the ground without a sleeve. 

What happens ?

Anita, feel free to post your answer as well, and maybe a video of these powerful Dobes you have. Something tells me your shit is in the wind.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Anita, feel free to post your answer as well, and maybe a video of these powerful Dobes you have. Something tells me your shit is in the wind.


 
I am not sure why you have to get personal when people disagree with you, but to
each their own. I have no video, but I have a couple titles under my belt. As far
as Doug Deacon he is truly one of the best judges out there and truly uses schutzhund
as a breed standard. He judged a doberman national and really opened peoples eyes.

Sue asked about prey and showed a video of her dog for comment. If she is showing
in schutzhund and wants to compete then I think that any feed back to help her is
appropriate. She has a really nice dog. I think the best advice given is always communicate
with your training director. He is the one that is working with you directly. 
AG


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I would say most dogs are trained in the sleeve or arm bites for starters. Fixed on the equipment to me means it wants nothing but that sleeve. No focus on the man or other body parts. Sure, I've caught a boat load of sleeve happy dogs, most are sport type animals. Dominate is another issue. Sport dogs are trained for the game, the dog KNOWS what to do to get the bite reward. This isn't a dominate dog, it's one that has been well coached in playing the game. 

Now to "test" the waters, kick his a$$ with full defense and no prey reward and many will dart away with tails tucked and the game is over. Playing fair...drop the sleeve and watch to see if the dog refocuses on the man or tool. Locked on the tool and not the drive, this is or should be the question. 

In other posts from other venues you will get a different spin. Locked in prey...how if it is decoyed well or has no defense drive?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I think if most people had a civil dog they would think it's a shitter and get another one anyway, so the point is moot. 

Jeff, How come it's so easy to take video and some people can't produce one? LOL


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## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Anita Griffing said:


> Doug Deacon he is truly one of the best judges out there


I agree. I would like to see more judges like Doug Deacon


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I love these "serious" dog conversations. Their ego's won't let them understand, but they sure know lots of training methods to make em serious.

Suuuuuuuuuure you do.

Anita, asking for a video of serious Dobermanns is a personal attack ?? Grow up.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Anita, asking for a video of serious Dobermanns is a personal attack ?? Grow up.


Jeff, asking like that is fine. It is the other colorful words you added earlier that is abrasive.  
I have no videos, but I have 4 or 5 HOT schH 3 dobies in my past...I guess that will have to
do for now. Titles are not be all end all IMO, so many just keep trying until they have a good
day. But I admire anyone that puts their bum on the line and tries.
AG


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So here is your question Mike, your dog knocks snot bubbles out of the helper on a courage test and has him on the ground without a sleeve.
> 
> What happens ?


I can say with I can say with most certainty he will be running around with the sleeve till I call him back.
Now I will add to to your scenario something else he has never seen. The helper gets up and hes mad bitching and threatening I can out the sleeve and send him and hes going to get bit I don't think he will stay on long because he on the Schutzhund field but he is going to get a his first live bite. And I can say this with most certainty.
Now I will offer up a bit more about my little German Shepherd that happens to play Schuzhund 
Now I have never done any sort of bite work or PPD crap at home for the most part he is untrained and obnoxious in fact my wifes friends have told her the dog dont know nothing that I must be out chasing puss as much as I'm gone dog training.
Any way Jeff lets say you hop my fence and start kicking and spinning your best ninja moves with out one word from me telling him what to do I can say with most certainty your going to get bit. And with not as much certainty I think your going to get ripped up pritty good. Since he has had 0 training for this I doubt he will stay on in one place very long so I think I will be needing the garden hose for clean up.
So I'll make my point Schutzhund dosent add any thing to a dogs character a good dog can add character to Schutzhund.:mrgreen:
What was your point???


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, I read your answer, and left the rest alone. Let me ask you this question.

Does it make him any less of a dog that he would carry it around ?? 

Does it make him less dog ??

I am glad that you decided that my statement was super dumb, and that you gave me a chance to retract it. LOL

I would not want to see a dog attack a helper on the ground. I would not expect a SERIOUS dog to do so in the situation I described for you.

I will now read the rest of your post, I just wanted to respond to your answer to my question


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The likelyhood of me jumping your fence and doing ninja moves is 0. I really can't imagine me doing this. However, the rest of your post has made my point. Sorry if you don't see it.

Anita, you may think I am abrasive, and that is fine, however, consider the possibility that "I" think your bullshit about your dobermanns. It is not always your world to rule, and it is certainly not mine, but the funny thing is that I would like to see some old school Dobermanns, but that is not what YOU read, you read that it was an abrasive attack. You took the low road, not me. I have seen the dogs that have titled in this world, and would not feed many of them.

WHat has HOT got to do with anything ?? I am just curious, as I don't think this is anything that important. Handler Owned and Trained ?? WHat, by yourself ?? LOL Another bullshit distinction.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK, I read your answer, and left the rest alone. Let me ask you this question.
> 
> Does it make him any less of a dog that he would carry it around ??
> 
> ...


WHAT I have no idea what your. Are you saying because a dog keeps the sleeve and dosn't go in for the kill that he cant be a serious dog or lacking character.
Jeff the way my dog was trained from the beguning is exactly the way a cop dog is started at a point the training has to change Schutzhund training dosent work well to develope a cop dog cop dog training dosn't work good for Schutzhund sport dog.
Fuk this keep spinning I'm done you know to much for me :lol:


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

hello Sue , I didn't see the video but you don't need to worry about that. If the dog is working with a clear head the drive doesn't matter. You have a very young dog that will mature to show dominance. You should use this period in his development to teach things as easy as possible. My people try to get defensive behaviors from a young dog and get flight. lastly a good decoy can make the proper movements and get the dog out of prey.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: WHAT I have no idea what your. Are you saying because a dog keeps the sleeve and dosn't go in for the kill that he cant be a serious dog or lacking character

I think a dog that has good character and is serious as a heartbeat that has done an exercise a thousand times can tell the difference between training, and life. There is that great big sleeve on the guys arm to help the poor dog figuring it out.

Here is what I said that started the stinkiness:

Quote: How do you help a young dog to not get focused on the toy/sleeve

How is this even possible ?? Why would you ever think that it could be ?? I have known a lot of people that teach their dog that when the sleeve is dropped, they need to "focus" on the man, but it is bullshit. I don't know anyone out there rewarding the dog with a bare arm.

I think that if a dog was truly focused on "the man" then helpers would be getting bitten, and stop working the dog.

I am guessing that the confusion started with a terminology difference. To me, focused on the man means that the dog will bite the man, not the sleeve, and will go over or under to do so.

I am thinking that you are talking about the dog NOT looking at the sleeve in the blind.

I don't always get a lot of sleep, and often when I do, I have interesting dreams that keep me awake. Most of the time, my comprehension is better than this. : )


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I would say most dogs are trained in the sleeve or arm bites for starters. Fixed on the equipment to me means it wants nothing but that sleeve. No focus on the man or other body parts. Sure, I've caught a boat load of sleeve happy dogs, most are sport type animals. Dominate is another issue. Sport dogs are trained for the game, the dog KNOWS what to do to get the bite reward. This isn't a dominate dog, it's one that has been well coached in playing the game.
> 
> Now to "test" the waters, kick his a$$ with full defense and no prey reward and many will dart away with tails tucked and the game is over. Playing fair...drop the sleeve and watch to see if the dog refocuses on the man or tool. Locked on the tool and not the drive, this is or should be the question.
> 
> In other posts from other venues you will get a different spin. Locked in prey...how if it is decoyed well or has no defense drive?


My retired SchH dog will bark at the sleeve because he knows that the sleeve brings the fight. Off the field he is, without a doubt, the best protection dog I could ever ask for.

We've trained many, many places & in the beginning we've heard comments like "you'll never title him"; "he has to have a silent guard or you'll never be able to control him"; "he's too hectic"... 

That's why I asked in the initial post what the definintion of "prey lock" meant to everyone. I'm hearing basically the same thing about 2 totally different types of dogs.

Someone said this isn't a suitable topic for a mb--I don't know why not.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> hello Sue , I didn't see the video but you don't need to worry about that. If the dog is working with a clear head the drive doesn't matter. You have a very young dog that will mature to show dominance. You should use this period in his development to teach things as easy as possible. My people try to get defensive behaviors from a young dog and get flight. lastly a good decoy can make the proper movements and get the dog out of prey.


Hey Tim, RU & Z coming to LV in January? :razz:


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> My retired SchH dog will bark at the sleeve because he knows that the sleeve brings the fight. Off the field he is, without a doubt, the best protection dog I could ever ask for.


I think this was a good topic Sue.

I would say that why didn't the trainer then have him look to the man for the fight?

AG


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

because the trainer is using a sleeve. It is a character issue more than a training issue. The dog will stand in the door, or cur.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> My retired SchH dog will bark at the sleeve because he knows that the sleeve brings the fight. Off the field he is, without a doubt, the best protection dog I could ever ask for.
> 
> We've trained many, many places & in the beginning we've heard comments like "you'll never title him"; "he has to have a silent guard or you'll never be able to control him"; "he's too hectic"...
> 
> ...


Sue, I see few real value questions being DUMB questions. Trust me, I ask questions even when I know the answers, because other folks will not for fear of looking dumb. If there is value in a quality reply then you're good to go!

First and foremost, the sleeve doesn't bring the fight, it's the decoy and dog working as one. The sleeve is equipment, like the bite suit, or a tug. If the dog doesn't have the genetics or training then all else is lost.

How is this dog the "best protection dog?" What part/s about him make his qualities great for protection? Again, if anyone isn't sure on a topic then getting good information and from many places can help open the eyes to answers...


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## Curtis McHail (Nov 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: How do you help a young dog to not get focused on the toy/sleeve
> 
> How is this even possible ?? Why would you ever think that it could be ?? I have known a lot of people that teach their dog that when the sleeve is dropped, they need to "focus" on the man, but it is bullshit. I don't know anyone out there rewarding the dog with a bare arm.
> 
> I think that if a dog was truly focused on "the man" then helpers would be getting bitten, and stop working the dog.



This is absolutely correct! But something else Jeff-O said isn't "There's aggression in prey drive, no need to go diggin' in defense"....You can have a great club level Sch dog who works in all prey, but you'll probably never have more than that. This also depends what you want the dog to do. Serious Sch/KNPV/NVBK or police/military/protection work a dog must also be worked in defense to excel/be efficient. In French and Mondioring? Not so much. Take an all prey dog, put him in the dark, and hurt him and you'll figure out why you can't work a PSD in all prey...

Anyway, IF the dog is an adult dog, one you're training for real work. If he's focused on the sleeve he's in prey drive. He's not taking the session seriously. If you slip a sleeve and the dog won't alert back on you, stop using the whip to make noise and catch him across the flank! IF he's a serious dog with decent soundness and defense he'll learn to ignore silly sleeves and focus on the person who's challenging him. Later we work with the hidden sleeve and muzzle. Problem solved.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think you are confused about what is what. LOL

Quote: Serious Sch/KNPV/NVBK or police/military/protection work a dog must also be worked in defense to excel/be efficient. 

Here is your club level prey dog. LOL 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfm_Tzk5PfA&feature=related

Ooooops, better get out a bit more. So you put them on a table and teach them to make a mean face. So what.

Quote: Take an all prey dog, put him in the dark, and hurt him and you'll figure out why you can't work a PSD in all prey...

So are you saying that it is possible for a dog to be in all prey all the time ?? What would you be teaching a dog if you beat him in the dark ??


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## Curtis McHail (Nov 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think you are confused about what is what. LOL
> 
> Quote: Serious Sch/KNPV/NVBK or police/military/protection work a dog must also be worked in defense to excel/be efficient.
> 
> ...



-bangs head on desk- Are you purposely this dense? I don't use tables, I switch dogs into defense by making them defend themselves.......not by cornering them. Putting them in the dark and hurting them = Situation a dog will find themselves eventually as a PSD and could very well find themselves in as a PPD. Do you think the dog in the video you posted would fight a man, in the dark, who just busted him in the chops with a steel toed boot, or between the ears with a piece of lumber? Doubt it! I have my decoys HURT my adult male dogs. I teach them that if somebody's hurting them to bite deeper and fight harder! They learn stressing the decoy means the decoy stresses them less! I dunno what you do over there but that's your business!!!! This is how I train and it works for me and I love the results!!!!!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Curtis how do you define prey drive? What is the decoy doing?


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## Curtis McHail (Nov 7, 2009)

Interesting you asked what the decoy is doing. What the decoy does isn't what's important, it's how the dog reacts that's important. A high prey dog will take a 100 stick hits to win it's prey while staying in prey the whole time (we won't go into grey areas of drive). Then again some dogs in the extremes of toughness/weakness are in defense with a perfectly still decoy. These would be dogs who get mad easy or scared easy. I saw a crappily trained crappily bred Dobe a few years back, would scream all the way to the bite in defense even if the decoy was running from him. This dog learned that not being on the bite = more stress than going into avoidance of the decoy...terrible stuff.

If this didn't answer your question feel free to be more specific! :smile:


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Sue, I see few real value questions being DUMB questions. Trust me, I ask questions even when I know the answers, because other folks will not for fear of looking dumb. If there is value in a quality reply then you're good to go!
> 
> First and foremost, the sleeve doesn't bring the fight, it's the decoy and dog working as one. The sleeve is equipment, like the bite suit, or a tug. If the dog doesn't have the genetics or training then all else is lost.
> 
> How is this dog the "best protection dog?" What part/s about him make his qualities great for protection? Again, if anyone isn't sure on a topic then getting good information and from many places can help open the eyes to answers...


1. He is a dominant dog.
2. He is always looking to control.
3. He is totally bonded to me.
4. He wants to conquer--not kill.
5. He's tolerant to all in the pack including dogs we take in for training--but will assert himself. eg-he will play with our female pitbull & let her bite him, annoy him etc. but at a water fountain he'll bump her out of the way to get a drink first. 
6. His obedience is excellent.
7. He'll stop when we're out in the early morning (4am) & stare at anyone approaching (lots of homeless 30ish drunk men at the park in the early morning).


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Curtis McHail said:


> Interesting you asked what the decoy is doing. What the decoy does isn't what's important, it's how the dog reacts that's important. A high prey dog will take a 100 stick hits to win it's prey while staying in prey the whole time (we won't go into grey areas of drive). Then again some dogs in the extremes of toughness/weakness are in defense with a perfectly still decoy. These would be dogs who get mad easy or scared easy. I saw a crappily trained crappily bred Dobe a few years back, would scream all the way to the bite in defense even if the decoy was running from him. This dog learned that not being on the bite = more stress than going into avoidance of the decoy...terrible stuff.
> 
> If this didn't answer your question feel free to be more specific! :smile:


Oh my! Curtis your info isn't matching to mine. PREY and the decoy have NOTHING to do with how much you can put on the dog. If the decoy isn't important, why have one? The dog responds to what the decoy does! The decoy is a sparring partner. If my Sensai throws a side or front kick, I respond to the kick and the direction I want to move him. Action=Reaction. A high prey dog taking two million stick hits isn't working in prey...pray maybe!!! Pray the decoy has a clue as to the job and the safe methods used.

In my book and others, prey is like a rabbit that looks for modes of escape, they freeze and go left or right and sometimes backwards. Prey training is any "test" where the dog has the power to chase and the chances of injury are slim. The training gives the dog skills to work from in other venues. In the spring, bass feed on very small fry and not larger fish. They don't need to be hurt and need easy food items.

Getting mad, interesting! I get mad. Am I in prey or defense? Or have I just lost what most call self control? A dog taking a 100 stick hits isn't in prey and the decoy isn't working it in that mode either!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> 1. He is a dominant dog.
> 2. He is always looking to control.
> 3. He is totally bonded to me.
> 4. He wants to conquer--not kill.
> ...


*Why are you out at 4am in a park with 30+ y.o. drunk men? No...stop...I don't tell me, I don't need to know! ;-)#-oOK let me guess...Man Tracking!*


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *Why are you out at 4am in a park with 30+ y.o. drunk men? No...stop...I don't tell me, I don't need to know! ;-)#-oOK let me guess...Man Tracking!*


I worded that wrong. They are about 30 years old _ish._ I'm with my husband & we call them B.O.B.S. (bums on bikes)--they all have bikes, cell phones & some have cameras & guitars. We are in a Henderson park where there are laws against loitering--but they all live in Bum Villiage across the street in Las Vegas. They construct all kinds of tents & stuff.

When we are out we don't want to directly run into them so instead of saying there's a bum close to you that you don't see we'll say "Did you call Bob today?" Some of them seem ok though--it's pretty sad really.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> I worded that wrong. They are about 30 years old _ish._ I'm with my husband & we call them B.O.B.S. (bums on bikes)--they all have bikes, cell phones & some have cameras & guitars. We are in a Henderson park where there are laws against loitering--but they all live in Bum Villiage across the street in Las Vegas. They construct all kinds of tents & stuff.
> 
> When we are out we don't want to directly run into them so instead of saying there's a bum close to you that you don't see we'll say "Did you call Bob today?" Some of them seem ok though--it's pretty sad really.


 
I'm hurt now! :sad::sad:


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## Curtis McHail (Nov 7, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Oh my! Curtis your info isn't matching to mine. PREY and the decoy have NOTHING to do with how much you can put on the dog. If the decoy isn't important, why have one? The dog responds to what the decoy does! The decoy is a sparring partner. If my Sensai throws a side or front kick, I respond to the kick and the direction I want to move him. Action=Reaction. A high prey dog taking two million stick hits isn't working in prey...pray maybe!!! Pray the decoy has a clue as to the job and the safe methods used.
> 
> In my book and others, prey is like a rabbit that looks for modes of escape, they freeze and go left or right and sometimes backwards. Prey training is any "test" where the dog has the power to chase and the chances of injury are slim. The training gives the dog skills to work from in other venues. In the spring, bass feed on very small fry and not larger fish. They don't need to be hurt and need easy food items.
> 
> Getting mad, interesting! I get mad. Am I in prey or defense? Or have I just lost what most call self control? A dog taking a 100 stick hits isn't in prey and the decoy isn't working it in that mode either!!!


We all know what a decoy typically does in prey work...didn't know you were asking me to state the obvious...perhaps I'm overly analytical at times? Explaining my use of the word "mad" probably can be done...but not by me at 8:30am x_x! BUT, luckily, I think you know what I mean and you're proving a point, point proven.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think you are confused about what is what. LOL
> 
> Quote: Serious Sch/KNPV/NVBK or police/military/protection work a dog must also be worked in defense to excel/be efficient.
> 
> ...


Probably out to lunch on this one but what I see is a superbly trained dog working in prey/play drive.
Not a dog I would breed to but then sometimes what you see on the trial field is totally different from what the dog is like off the field.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Probably out to lunch on this one but what I see is a superbly trained dog working in prey/play drive.
> Not a dog I would breed to but then sometimes what you see on the trial field is totally different from what the dog is like off the field.


 
I think he showed more balanced drives at the WUSV 2009.  Did you think so, Robin?
AG


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Anita Griffing said:


> I think he showed more balanced drives at the WUSV 2009.  Did you think so, Robin?
> 
> AG


Haven't had a chance to see it yet but I'll look it up.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I would not be using play and prey as one in the same! These are two VERY different things. For LE work, you don't take a "play dog" and transfer this mode into a NDD. Can't shift a play or stressfree role into hunt drive or into any other true pressure position. Play is PLAY!!

Hunting dogs are under lots of stress in a hunting mode. They are trained to problem-solve and take signals/direction in their attempt to be hunter successful in the field. I hear folks also say the prey bites are play bites...right! Mouthing in play with family isn't the same reaction.[-X


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I would not be using play and prey as one in the same! These are two VERY different things. For LE work, you don't take a "play dog" and transfer this mode into a NDD. Can't shift a play or stressfree role into hunt drive or into any other true pressure position. Play is PLAY!!
> 
> Hunting dogs are under lots of stress in a hunting mode. They are trained to problem-solve and take signals/direction in their attempt to be hunter successful in the field. I hear folks also say the prey bites are play bites...right! Mouthing in play with family isn't the same reaction.[-X


Didn't say he was working in prey/play at the same time. He switches between the two. Watch the body language. JMHO.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Didn't say he was working in prey/play at the same time. He switches between the two. Watch the body language. JMHO.


 We have two dogs here that show the same behaviors, switching. Not a nerve thing, but a pre-training thing, I think. When not sure, they go play mode. Too much pressure in prey and a play body shows.


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