# Finally gonna do it...



## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I have finally decided that I am switching to raw. Need all the help and suggestions links ect that you can provide. Have a big freezer as well as 2 fridge freezer combos available for dog storage. What I would really like is a menu from people who feed raw for a week as well as the weight and age of their dogs so I can create my own menu. Going shopping this evening and tommorrow after work and plan to make the switch this week sometime. Thinking of doing it cold turkey unless i get evidence to the contrary. Thanks in advance Greg


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## Jason Rogers (May 28, 2008)

Hey Greg...

That info would be useful for me too! I only feed part Raw and part Kibble as I don't have a clue what to give them each day.

A menu etc like Greg suggests would certainly point me in the right direction to be giving 100% raw!

Thanks in advance,
Jason.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> I have finally decided that I am switching to raw. Need all the help and suggestions links ect that you can provide. Have a big freezer as well as 2 fridge freezer combos available for dog storage. What I would really like is a menu from people who feed raw for a week as well as the weight and age of their dogs so I can create my own menu. Going shopping this evening and tommorrow after work and plan to make the switch this week sometime. Thinking of doing it cold turkey unless i get evidence to the contrary. Thanks in advance Greg


Here ya go:

http://www.leerburg.com/diet2.htm

Scroll down; there are TWO 7-day menus.

The Ester C and alfalfa-kelp are optional, but not (IMO) the fish oil and Vitamin E.

On Menu 2, you'll see that chicken backs are mentioned. If you can get 'em, do it. They are soft and cartilage-y and even have kidneys stuck in the bone side. ;-)

When I start a dog, I start with ONE item: the poultry, with some plain no-sugar live-culture yogurt for probiotics. No organ meat yet.

After two days and no sign of the runs (which is usually from overfeeding or leaving too much fat on the meat too early), I add the fish oil and E. (There is virtually never a problem with the fish oil.) A couple days later, a tiny bit of liver. I add the 5% organ meat gradually; it's rich.

Then I add in the rest, one per day.

MOST dogs are great with "Here, here's the whole thing!" on day one. But just in case there is a diet-change diarrhea, I think it's worth the trouble to do one addition at a time so you can I..D. the problem.

http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

P.S. Organ meat is about 5-10% of the diet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S. I think it's very beneficial to follow a well-designed "menu" for a couple of weeks, and then branch out. This is because you will quickly get a feel for what pieces of RMB are pretty much replicas of whole prey in the meat-bone ratio.

This sounds complicated. It's so not. You just want to hand the dog as close as you can get to dead prey plus long-chain Omega 3s. 

I use about 2% of the dog's weight except for one with a better metabolism who needs 3%. This is for ADULTS.

If you are feeding growing puppies, the 2-3% is more like 5-10%.

http://leerburg.com/feedpups.htm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don't hesitate to ask questions.

I jumped into this alone, before the internet, with one book and zero human help. I know how scary that was.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Thanks for the advice. I just bought some chicken quarters and wings, but and looking for backs and necks. I think I will stick with poultry as you suggested for a couple weeks. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that giving a dog fat scraps from meat trimming could be good any truth to that?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Welcome to the world of raw Greg!

When I first started out (and heck, this is still what I plan to feed as of next week when I pick up my order in Holland) I found that the absolute simplest way to feed was this formula right here:

Take 2.5% of the dogs body weight, so for simplicity, say a 100lb dog would be 2.5lbs of food per day.

70% Chicken Backs and Chicken Necks (or I'd throw in some chicken wings and leg quarters to mix it up a little)

25% Muscle meat -- ground turkey, ground beef, ground chicken etc.

5% Organ meat -- chicken livers, gizzards and hearts.

I'd feed the organ meats every 2 or 3 days, and on the days where I didn't feed organ meat I would replace it with 5% extra muscle meat.

This worked well for me as a balanced foundation. Then as I get more into the rhythm of raw again I will start substituting more stuff for variety. But this is a solid balanced foundation.

Ofcourse, salmon oil + vit E are a given.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> Thanks for the advice. I just bought some chicken quarters and wings, but and looking for backs and necks. I think I will stick with poultry as you suggested for a couple weeks. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that giving a dog fat scraps from meat trimming could be good any truth to that?



Wings might go into the freezer for now. They're great as part of the whole bird, but alone are mostly fat (skin) and bones.

Quarters, great!

Fat is fine later if you see that the dog needs more fat than what is on the RMBs.

For the beginning, extra fat is sometimes a diarrhea trigger. 

P.S. I don't give regular cooked fat, which doesn't even have the same chemical makeup as raw.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh also, Greg, the "seasoned" raw feeders seem to be very capable at eyeballing food quantities without weighing them out. Since I don't feel comfortable with that yet, and I find it takes forever to prepare each meal 1 baggy at a time, what I did was go to Walgreens and grab 4 or 5 el-cheapo weighing scales, line them up on the kitchen counter, have a big plastic box filled with backs, one with necks, one with organs and one with muscle meat... then prepare 5 baggies at a time like a production line. I prepared a whole month worths of food for 2 adults and 2 pups in a fraction of the time being able to do them all at the same time.

I also later discovered that using small plastic gladware containers made it a lot easier than fumbling around with ziploc baggies.

Here in Belgium we have a store called "AVA" that specializes in paper/plastic stuff in bulk. They sell all the restaurant food type containers in bulk, and I picked up 150 small plastic microwaveable containers (not that they need to go in the microwave, but they are a sturdier more sealable quality than the cheaper ones) for about $45 bucks. Not sure if you have a place like that, but if you do, they are a lot cheaper than gladware.

Otherwise, ziploc baggies work fine -- but I am all for speeding up the process any way I can.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Greg Leavitt said:


> Thanks for the advice. I just bought some chicken quarters and wings, but and looking for backs and necks. I think I will stick with poultry as you suggested for a couple weeks. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that giving a dog fat scraps from meat trimming could be good any truth to that?


Try Kings Ranch Market on 7th St in Victorville. They often have chicken and turkey necks, tripe (but it's bleached), in 10 lb bags chicken feet (yuck) and other assorted parts in the meat case usually at great prices. Some of the other Hispanic markets in the area may have them as well but I haven't checked them out.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wings might go into the freezer for now. They're great as part of the whole bird, but alone are mostly fat (skin) and bones.
> 
> Quarters, great!
> 
> ...


Thats good info about the fat I have a good friend who is the meat manager at stater bros markets and always gives me the trimmings raw of course. I think my female who has 9 pups on her could use a little extra fat. 

Thanks for the tips mike, I buy lunch meat in those resealable glad containers and have dozens of them around here. I just need to find a good source for chciken backs and necks, as well as pick up a couple kitcen scales. 
Connie where do you order your supplements from? Also what rae your feelings about adding kelp? I had a club member tell me he adds kelp and could gt it for me at a good price.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> Connie where do you order your supplements from? Also what rae your feelings about adding kelp? I had a club member tell me he adds kelp and could gt it for me at a good price.


I use fish oil myself too, so I buy Nordic Naturals (no odor or taste, pharmaceutical). But MANY folks use Grizzly. And it comes in a pump bottle -- very convenient.

I do indeed give sea vegetables (not just kelp). I use undried, and I stick to heavy-metal-tested (for mercury and arsenic, mainly). Dried is also fine, but again, tested.

Vitamin E is everywhere. I like "Natural Mixed Tocopherols." But you could get d-Alpha, too.

My dogs think it's caviar. I used to pierce and squeeze the gelcaps. #-o But they love 'em as is.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> as well as pick up a couple kitcen scales. .


If you get a few butcher packs with the weight on, you can get a good feel for the weights.

But I totally understand the scale thing; I did it for years. 

They are very cheap, too.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If I was to start an adult from scratch, here's how I would start it. First, get the good bacteria going by about a week or so beforehand giving ~2-3 heaping tablespoons of good high quality yogurt a day. Making it yourself is best (and there are numerous ways to do this yet, I just personally haven't tried) and is freshest. If you can get it from a local producer, that's great too. But I use either Stonyfield Organic or Mountain High plain whole fat (reduced fat is fine if you've got dogs whose weight you need to watch):

http://www.stonyfield.com/OurProducts/WholeMilkYogurt.cfm#javascript:void(0)
http://www.mountainhighyoghurt.com/html/original_style.htm

Stonyfield Organic has 6 species of microorganisms and Mountain High has 5. I buy these at the natural food store for ~$3.50 for a 32 oz carton (it also makes really good sour creme substitute, btw! I can't hardly tell the difference, they're so creamy). The fresher they are, the more likely the microorganisms are to survive. I would NOT recommend doing a raw diet without giving probiotics, as they minimize the shed of salmonella and E. coli. 

Then as Connie says, start with something easy like chicken quarters for the first week or two. Slowly add in other stuff. 

If it mentally makes you feel better, you can certainly give canned food like EVO 95% Beef, Chicken/Turkey, Rabbit, etc as well in the same meal or in different meals. I still feed this about 2-3 times a week because I don't have a great source of rabbit, venison, or duck. Another plus with the canned is that it's more convenient for traveling as I dislike having to run to the store to get something for the dogs locally or bringing a cooler with their meat. Just easier to get a case of cans.

Okay, here's a sample menu for once you get past the introduction stage (my dogs are all between 50 and 65 lbs, ranging from older low energy to very high energy young dog):

Day 1:
-half a 5-6 lbs fryer chicken cut right down the center
-giblets if they came with it (i.e.-heart, liver, gizards all divided up into 4 pieces and divided)

Day 2:
-quarter of a 5-6 lbs fryer chicken (either the legs or the breast/wing/most of the back)
-1/2 cup prepared The Honest Kitchen Preference (the veggie mix)
-2 tablespoons of local honey, especially during allergy season
-splash of apple cider vinegar (some people swear by this stuff for whatever ails ya, but very optional)
-4-6 fish oil capsules
-400 IUE vitamin E

Day 3:
-half a can of green tripe
-1/4 lb beef, lamb, or pork liver
-1 pasture raised egg with shell
-1/4 cup yogurt
-1000-2000 mg of ester C (especially in times of stress)


Day 4: 
-1.5 lbs lamb ribs or breast (note: lamb or goat ribs/breast are softer and easier on their teeth than beef/bison/pork ribs...not that I don't ever feed beef ribs because I do, they're just more prone to being brittle)
-4-6 fish oil capsules
-400 IUE vitamin E


Day 5: 
-1/2 cup prepared The Honest Kitchen Preference veggie mix
-1/8th of a beef heart (or 1/4 of a pork heart)
-1 pasture raised egg with shell
-1/4 cup yogurt
-2 tablespoons local honey
-splash of apple cider vinegar
-3 tablespoons organic extra virgin olive oil

Day 6
-1/4 of a whole 10-12 lbs turkey
-1/4 of the giblets

Day 7: fast day (awww...no fun!). They still get a biscuit (I like the grain free EVO biscuits) or some yogurt.

Various random add ins: tomatoes, peppers, peaches, pears, etc. If I'm eating them or if I just made up a salad, they get a little piece of them. They occasionally get fish or other random stuff. If I'm grilling sweet potatoes, I'll put on one for them too and divide it up accordingly. It's pretty flexible. If a dog is stressed or sick, they get 2000 mg daily. If they are going through allergies, they get the fish oil and vitamin E every day.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I think I paid about $6.99 at Walgreens for cheap lil scales that go up to 2lbs or something like that.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And please do NOT look at the samples of someone who has been feeding raw for years (like me) and think "OMG! I have to buy $200 worth of food!"

You don't. You can start with a very simple, very inexpensive menu, and add variety as you find cheap sources.

I'm with Maren on the extreme and varied benefits of good (live culture) unsweetened plain yogurt. Fish oil is the king of "extras," but I put probiotics right up there.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Stonyfield Organic has 6 species of microorganisms and Mountain High has 5. I


And Cascade has 8!

I like Maren's choices, too, and I alternate.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I think I may have jut found a good poultry source, a neighbor raises and sells chickens,chukars,quail,ducks,geese,pheasent ect and has over 25000 of them. Going to go over and talk to him about it I know he does some for meat as well, maybe a butcher shop lead as well. I have bought eggs from him in the past and the are all pastured rasied organic brown eggs, which he sells for 1.00 a dozen I think.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> I think I may have jut found a good poultry source, a neighbor raises and sells chickens,chukars,quail,ducks,geese,pheasent ect and has over 25000 of them. Going to go over and talk to him about it I know he does some for meat as well, maybe a butcher shop lead as well. I have bought eggs from him in the past and the are all pastured rasied organic brown eggs, which he sells for 1.00 a dozen I think.


COOL!

New sources come along often. Example: I found last year that local fishermen are thrilled to sell scraps from the filleting (they call it cat food) right down at the docks, and even at the farmers' market.

"Reduced price" packs of meats at the grocery store are great too. (These are often boneless, so they would go into the "muscle meat" part, not forgetting that the basis of the raw diet is RMBs.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S. to folks "on the fence" 



A raw diet can absolutely be done with no source but the grocery store. Don't be put off by all the deals and suppliers that long-time raw feeders talk about.

The two 7-day sample menus I linked are absolutely good raw diets, and every item but the fish oil is in every grocery store.

My suggestion is to start with them (after the 1-item-per-day intro), and then as other sources pop up (and once you start feeding raw and looking around, they will), then incorporate other stuff.

Variety is king! But just chicken RMBs with another meat as added muscle meat and some good yogurt is already good variety to start with.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

If I could just echo the great advice you have been given on starting out with raw....best to follow the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). 

This is best for you and the dog and I just want to reasure you that if you have to feed your dog just quarter chickens for a couple of weeks the dog will be fine. Just add things slowly, one at a time. Remember it is balance over time, not all in one day you are looking for.

Before you know it you will cutting up dead things in your back yard with a reciprocating saw too Welcome to the dark side:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Yanno Jennifer, that pic right there is pretty disturbing   You have way too much fun.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

That photo reminds me of the Christian Bale movie America Psycho.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I use fish oil myself too, so I buy Nordic Naturals (no odor or taste, pharmaceutical). But MANY folks use Grizzly. And it comes in a pump bottle -- very convenient.
> 
> I do indeed give sea vegetables (not just kelp). I use undried, and I stick to heavy-metal-tested (for mercury and arsenic, mainly). Dried is also fine, but again, tested.
> 
> Vitamin E is everywhere. I like "Natural Mixed Tocopherols." But you could get d-Alpha, too.


Some of the nutritionists don't like Grizzly apparently because they don't make it very clear how much DHA and EPA are exactly in their product. Not a huge deal if you're giving it for maintenance dogs, but it is important if you're dealing with allergies or inflammation.

The alpha tocopherol is the most bioavailable vitamin E and the best studied. Tocopheryls are the synthetic vitamin Es, if I recall.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Maren where do you buy your supplements from? As well as where do you get your apple cider vingear>


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Greg: Maybe your neighbor will provide you with frames/necks from his poultry. That would be a great source for you. Good Luck and welcome to the RAW club.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Greg: Maybe your neighbor will provide you with frames/necks from his poultry. That would be a great source for you. Good Luck and welcome to the RAW club.



Yeah thats what I am hoping. He also has turkeys. I just bought whole organic grass fed chickens at costco for 79 cents a pound and thought that was pretty good. Also found some whole sugar free yogurt that that says on the label it has 6 active probiotics. Also picked up some cottage cheese as it was on sale. Just looking for apple cider vinegar and a good source for the supplements. i think I may have a source but I will have to check and see what he has the ability to get for me. 

I think I am going to take a bunch of pictures before I start so I can compare.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Tocopheryls are the synthetic vitamin Es, if I recall.



dl-alpha would be synthetic alpha tocopherol (one of the eight E tocopherols). 

d-alpha, as opposed to dl-alpha, is not (or mostly not) synthetic, but is still only one of the tocopherols under the Vitamin E "umbrella."

Alpha, whether d or dl, is the most-used of the eight tocopherols that together form what we call Vitamin E.

These are the three common forms of E available: (1) completely synthetic dl-alpha-tocopherol, the cheapest and most common; (2) partly-synthetic so-called natural esters, used in multis and also in pills that may say "from natural sources,' which are fractionated d-alpha tocopherol, usually made via synthetic methylation tocopherol from plant oils; (3) natural mixed tocopherols.

I prefer mixed natural mixed tocopherols.

P.S. It's true that alpha is the most studied ..... by far.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No, I really do mean tocopheryls.  With a Y, not an O. Tocopherols with the O are the "natural" state, tocopheryls are the synthetic ester version. If I recall.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The alpha tocopherol is the most bioavailable vitamin E .


Alpha tocopherol isn't Vitamin E, though; it is one of the eight tocopherols that together form what is called Vitamin E.

Most studies of Vitamin E have been done using only alpha; the functions and the relationships to alpha of the other 7 are not well-researched yet. There have been studies, however, pointing to limited benefit of alpha alone on Alzheimer patients compared to significantly higher benefit of natural mixed tocopherols from food sources.

Vitamin E "comes" in nature with all eight. (For simplicity, I say eight tocopherols; it's actually four tocopherols and four related tocotrienols.)

I'll see if I saved any of the studies on the increased benefits to Alzheimer patients from using all eight rather than alpha alone.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> Maren where do you buy your supplements from? As well as where do you get your apple cider vingear>


Some of it I get from Sam's Club (like the fish oil and ester C) and some of it (like the apple cider vinegar) I get from the natural food store. I knew someone in grad school whose lab did research on omega 3 FAs and that's where they got theirs from. *shrug* I've also used the 3V HV Snip Tip capsules. Don't get any on you if you use those, man, they are potent! You can smell them without even opening the capsule. 

I *highly* recommend getting the kind that is molecularly distilled to remove heavy metals, dioxins, and PCBs as that material tends to bioaccumulate in the fat of the fish. It's also preferable for them to name the fish source. Sardine is good as they are pretty much herbivores and not as high on the food chain (or as overfished!!) as others, like shark. Alaskan wild salmon is the probably best variety to feed out of the various salmons.

I honestly don't know that much about apple cider vinegar except that everyone claims it works about just about whatever you can think of. :-k I figure a little splash in their veggie mix couldn't hurt. I get Braggs raw organic ACV at the health food store.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Some of the nutritionists don't like Grizzly apparently because they don't make it very clear how much DHA and EPA are exactly in their product.


I had the idea from comparison charts that wild salmon, menhaden, anchovies, and sardines all had very similar amounts of DHA and EPA in them. 

Is the problem lack of specifics on the label? That would be a problem for me, too. I wonder if this info is available from the company. I'll give it a shot.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer, nobody should be laughing that hard while they butcher something.

:-o Wait...........:-k is that......a necklace...and a pair of eye glasses laying in that pile? 8-[ 8-[ :-# Nevermind!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I *highly* recommend getting the kind that is molecularly distilled to remove heavy metals, dioxins, and PCBs as that material tends to bioaccumulate in the fat of the fish.


Me too.

Second choice would be to use oil from fish that are low-mercury anyway (sardines, anchovies, wild ocean [not land-locked] salmon).

http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/mercury/guide.asp

As Maren says, the fish high on the food chain are the ones to avoid (shark, albacore, etc.) unless they are molecularly distilled to leave behind heavy metals.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Jennifer, .... :-o Wait...........:-k is that......a necklace...and a pair of eye glasses laying in that pile? 8-[ 8-[ :-# Nevermind!



Ah-hahahahahahahahaha! And see her ski mask tossed over there in the corner? The one she wears while wielding the chain saw?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've also used the 3V HV Snip Tip capsules. Don't get any on you if you use those, man, they are potent! You can smell them without even opening the capsule. .


And I betcha dogs LOVE that one! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No, I really do mean tocopheryls.  With a Y, not an O. Tocopherols with the O are the "natural" state, tocopheryls are the synthetic ester version. If I recall.


That would be the second one I mentioned, I believe... ?



Connie Sutherland said:


> These are the three common forms of E available: (1) completely synthetic dl-alpha-tocopherol, the cheapest and most common; (2) partly-synthetic so-called natural esters, used in multis and also in pills that may say "from natural sources,' which are fractionated d-alpha tocopherol, usually made via synthetic methylation tocopherol from plant oils; (3) natural mixed tocopherols. ...


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

What are your thoughts about Trout wild trout caught out of a local stream to feed to dogs. Should fish de-boned, as an avid fisherman I almost always have fresh fish around. What types of fish are good verus not so good.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> What are your thoughts about Trout wild trout caught out of a local stream to feed to dogs. Should fish de-boned, as an avid fisherman I almost always have fresh fish around. What types of fish are good verus not so good.


Whereabouts?

Salmonids (raw) from west of the Cascades are dangerous (potentially deadly) to canids, and the most common scenario is dogs allowed to have the guts, heads, etc., when people fishing clean their catch and toss that stuff to the dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Found one of those natural mixed tocopherol v. alpha studies:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/499241


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No, no, sorry, I meant I don't have an issue with it being an alpha as I know there are other isotypes. It's that the tocopherYL apparently has a synthetic acetate attached to it to prolong shelf life and the tocopherOL is the "natural' version that apparently has slightly better bioavailability. Kinda ike the difference between vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and ester C. They're both still "vitamin C," just different forms of the same thing for slightly different purposes.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Whereabouts?
> 
> Salmonids (raw) from west of the Cascades are dangerous (potentially deadly) to canids, and the most common scenario is dogs allowed to have the guts, heads, etc., when people fishing clean their catch and toss that stuff to the dogs.


Well this were caught in the san bernardino national forrest deep creek area. So what fish are good versus no good?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Found one of those natural mixed tocopherol v. alpha studies:
> 
> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/499241


Uh-oh. I guess you have to be a member.

Here is the part of the text I wanted to show (and particularly the last paragraph):









QUOTE: Vitamin E From Food Sources May Reduce Risk of Alzheimer's Disease CME

*News Author: Laurie Barclay, MD*

* CME Author: Désirée Lie, MD, MSEd*

Feb. 11, 2005 —Intake of a mixture of vitamin E tocopherols from food sources rather than from supplements is associated with a reduced risk of Alzheimer's Disease (AD), according to the results of a large prospective study published in the February issue of the _American Journal of Clinical Nutrition_. Randomized trials therefore appear to be warranted.


"High intake of vitamin E from food (tocopherol), but not from supplements (which usually contain α-tocopherol), is inversely associated with Alzheimer disease," write Martha Clare Morris, ScD, PhD, from the Rush Institute for Healthy Aging in Atlanta, Georgia, and colleagues. "Because vitamin E is composed of four different tocopherol forms (α-, γ, δ, and β-tocopherols) and four corresponding tocotrienols, and because vitamin E supplements usually consist of α-tocopherol only, one possible explanation for the seeming inconsistency is that the effect is not due to α-tocopherol alone but to another tocopherol form or to a combination of tocopherol forms."


The investigators studied whether food intakes of vitamin E, α-tocopherol equivalents (a measure of the relative biologic activity of tocopherols and tocotrienols), or individual tocopherols would protect against incident AD and cognitive decline for six years in subjects enrolled in the Chicago Health and Aging Project (CHAP). This study of community residents aged 65 years or older took place from 1993 to 2002, and it included a battery of four cognitive tests, clinical evaluations for AD, and dietary assessment by food frequency questionnaire (FFQ).


Logistic regression revealed that tocopherol intake from food was directly related to the four-year incidence of AD in 1,041 participants who were clinically evaluated (n = 162 incident cases). Tocopherol intake from food was also positively associated with change in a global cognitive score determined by mixed models in 3,718 participants.


In separate multiple-adjusted models that included intakes of saturated and trans fats and docosahexaenoic acid, higher intakes of vitamin E and α-tocopherol equivalents were associated with a reduced incidence of AD. Relative risk was 0.74 per 5 mg/day increase for vitamin E (95% confidence interval, 0.62-0.88) and 0.56 per 5 mg/day increase for α-tocopherol equivalents (95% confidence interval, 0.32-0.98). α- and γ-Tocopherols were independently associated with risk of AD. Separate mixed models showed that a slower rate of cognitive decline was associated with intakes of vitamin E, α-tocopherol equivalents, and α- and γ-tocopherols.


The main study limitation was the questionable validity of intakes of some of the different tocopherol forms.


"The results suggest that various tocopherol forms rather than α-tocopherol alone may be important in the vitamin E protective association with Alzheimer disease," the authors write. "This may explain the absence of association reported in some studies between Alzheimer disease and use of vitamin E supplements, which have traditionally contained only α-tocopherol. Additional testing through randomized controlled clinical trials appears warranted to more firmly establish the effects of various tocopherol forms on the prevention of age-related cognitive decline and Alzheimer disease."




_Am J Clin Nutr._ 2005;81:508-514
END QUOTE


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> What are your thoughts about Trout wild trout caught out of a local stream to feed to dogs. Should fish de-boned, as an avid fisherman I almost always have fresh fish around. What types of fish are good verus not so good.


I've got a vet school friend who gives me her dad's freezer burned rainbow trout every once in a great while. No need to debone and from what I hear, you can actually cook the fish and feed it whole? Haven't tried this personally, but I haven't had to deal with the parasite thing either in the salmonids in the Pacific Northwest that Connie mentions. Might not be a bad idea to check up on the pesticide load in the stream. This is particularly important for pregnant and lactating females as environmental insults to the fetus during this time can have permanent effects that may not be so bad in the adult. The US Geological Survey and the EPA are generally good places to inquire as to the condition. I've got a presentation tomorrow and a test on Tuesday, so I must skedaddle for now, gang! :-D


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've got a presentation tomorrow .....


I vote that you take Jennifer for Show & Tell. Have her wear her ski mask and carry her chain saw.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/finally-gonna-do-7909/index3.html


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I vote that you take Jennifer for Show & Tell. Have her wear her ski mask and carry her chain saw.
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/finally-gonna-do-7909/index3.html


Not sure that that would be the best way to convince the vet community that raw feeding should be mainstream8-[ 

On the fish thing....

I have fed a wide variety of fish but it is not a huge part of my dog's diet. I don't cook it but do deep freeze it first to kill parasites. 

Some dogs would rather roll in it than eat it, but mine does okay with it..heads, skin and all. If your dog seems unsure about fish you may want to start with some meat exposed to entice them.

The colder the water the fish lives in, the better the the source of Omega 3. Is that right Connie? For that reason I like to like to mix things up with my fish oils. I do some salmon oil but also do a sardine oil.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> That photo reminds me of the Christian Bale movie America Psycho.


Funny you mention that, I just watched that movie again the other night and I thought the exact same thing :lol:


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Funny you mention that, I just watched that movie again the other night and I thought the exact same thing :lol:


I wonder if she can throw her saw down three flights of stairs and still cut her raw meat in half?? lol


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Greg Leavitt said:


> That photo reminds me of the Christian Bale movie America Psycho.



I haven't seen the movie, but I imagine there is some dude that cuts up people?:-& 

I do admitt that my friend caught me with a "kinda" crazy look on my face  

Do that in your yard a few times a year muttering something about "number 13 and counting"... and you can leave your doors unlocked....no PPD needed


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I haven't seen the movie, but I imagine there is some dude that cuts up people?:-&
> 
> I do admitt that my friend caught me with a "kinda" crazy look on my face
> 
> Do that in your yard a few times a year muttering something about "number 13 and counting"... and you can leave your doors unlocked....no PPD needed


google it and you shall see


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Greg Leavitt said:


> google it and you shall see


   Yes I see now.


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