# Decoys and helpers



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How much aggression do you look for in a dog?

Also, do you do a lot of "aggitating" or do you just work the dog?


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

It depends on what the dogs doin. are we trial decoying. or training. Trial work you work the dog. training work you work on specific issues. the only time i bring out civil drive is in police k9 and pp dogs. Now i will frustrate the dog to bring out a bit more in the bite work. but i will not push them farther than they can go. I say it all depends on the dog. i dont like my dogs to be all prey. But i dont think you should push the dog passed his limits or were they arent comfortable. No need to break a dog down for looks.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, that is how I started, I stopped trying to "add" anything at some point because I am not working that hard dealing with thresholds for defence and avoidance.

If the dog shows a good balance.....fine, if not......fine. Too lazy I guess.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I guess I am saying that I do enough to get the dog to bite, and little more. If I have to go through coniptions to get the dog to go........well it is not really worth it. I am not young anymore. : )


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## Chris J. Kyriakopoulos (Mar 20, 2007)

thats a good point Jeff, but in a club atmosphere what do you do being the TD??????? Do you work it out or just tell the person "You have a Sh*T*ER on your hand quit while your ahead" you know as well as I do that people get a pup from a breeder that talks the pup up then when they hit a club and it poops out?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Honestly, that is a toughie. I used to be the guy that would work any dog, any time. Honestly, anymore it is better to tell them to send the puppy back and get some of these junk breeders off the books. Sick of the crap they are selling.

And no, I do not write puppies off right away.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Kadi is gonna pound me I think.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

ok i am straight up with people. i will give a dog time if i see somethin in there but if it is gonna be shit i tell them. you know the old sayings you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. or you know there is a funny thing about that black speck on top of chicken shit that too is chicken shit. but i will tell someone nicely at first but if they dont take it and keep pushin it i will get pretty foward with them. say hey that dog is shit quit and get a new one


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I do it for the fun of seeing a dog improve. I have a not so great dog on my hands n if it wasn't for people giving him a chance and taking the time to work with him I would have never gotten to where I am now. As it turned out, the key to getting him to stop backing off was to literally just have ME decoy for my own frikkin dog, then take the leash n have another decoy work him immediately after :lol: I enjoy figuring out what makes individual dogs tick even if they aren't cut out to be the greatest.... but I love it when we get out there away from the puppy crap n have some real fun with the dogs  I got beat up pretty good by the muzzle tonight.

I see some dogs who I just don't believe should even be worked, n for me to say that the dog must be a real junker! They are dogs who I have spent months working with and never see them get beyond step 2, or you give em a little pain n they go back to step 0.5. I have also seen dogs who we thought were completely hopeless, then they go to a pet home where the owners just want a lazy dog that'll bark at people on command.... then they bond with a handler n the dog improves 10x over! They are never king of the world monster dogs, but they make the owners happy and it's fun seeing the dog actually become more than a couch potato. Ofcourse, I am in a situation where I don't just decoy dogs for one specific purpose. Some are police dogs, some are home protection dogs, some are sport dogs, some are dogs like my own where you just screw around with the dog and a sleeve because the dog can do it n they enjoy it, without any specific goal in mind. I think as a decoy for a mondio club you need to be alot more goal oriented in the sense that if a dog isn't cut out for mondio for example, you're better off not wasting your time with the dog.

I actually enjoy working "prey dogs" alot because from the decoys perspective it's fun being able to step in and control a situation. Like running blinds with a complete club level game dog, if they don't circle the blind I can drop the sleeve n they don't do anything :lol: But once you get to a certain point, all the illusions behind biting dogs that impress people who are new to it disappear. I get people asking me all the time "aren't you scared of the big dog barking in your face showing his teeth?"... well, no, because I see what they don't see, n in a way that sucks because it takes alot more dog to impress you once you reach that point. I don't even flinch at a dog snapping his teeth at me when he's tied out to a post, n sometimes I forget that some of these dogs can really hurt you :lol:

So to answer the question specifically... some dogs I spend alot of time agitating, and some dogs are just out of the box born to do what they do. Most people can't even handle a dog that is halfway decent, n I've been in situations where I'm happy as hell the handler has a game dog, because it's pretty annoying when people fall over or drop the leash or don't stand still when you tell them to 

Also, the people with "lesser dogs" do understand this. They do it for fun, with no goals in mind, n if they are willing to take the time to bring their dog out then I have no problem spending a few minutes with the dog. Nobody is under any illusions that the dogs will be a killer


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I do it for the fun of seeing a dog improve. I have a not so great dog on my hands n if it wasn't for people giving him a chance and taking the time to work with him I would have never gotten to where I am now. As it turned out, the key to getting him to stop backing off was to literally just have ME decoy for my own frikkin dog, then take the leash n have another decoy work him immediately after :lol: I enjoy figuring out what makes individual dogs tick even if they aren't cut out to be the greatest.... but I love it when we get out there away from the puppy crap n have some real fun with the dogs  I got beat up pretty good by the muzzle tonight.
> 
> I see some dogs who I just don't believe should even be worked, n for me to say that the dog must be a real junker! They are dogs who I have spent months working with and never see them get beyond step 2, or you give em a little pain n they go back to step 0.5. I have also seen dogs who we thought were completely hopeless, then they go to a pet home where the owners just want a lazy dog that'll bark at people on command.... then they bond with a handler n the dog improves 10x over! They are never king of the world monster dogs, but they make the owners happy and it's fun seeing the dog actually become more than a couch potato. Ofcourse, I am in a situation where I don't just decoy dogs for one specific purpose. Some are police dogs, some are home protection dogs, some are sport dogs, some are dogs like my own where you just screw around with the dog and a sleeve because the dog can do it n they enjoy it, without any specific goal in mind. I think as a decoy for a mondio club you need to be alot more goal oriented in the sense that if a dog isn't cut out for mondio for example, you're better off not wasting your time with the dog.
> 
> ...


Well said i think that was the best decoy explanation yet.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I do alot of aggitating on younger dogs who are starting out just to build their drive as high as I can get it. Once you get them to a certain point then you can began working them, at the speed of the dog of course. Gradually introducing the pressure. Of course some dogs are preprogrammed with drive out the ass so you don't have to build as much. Everything really depends on the dog. I agree that some dogs just won't cut it, but in the club scene you still have to do what you can to try to get the dog to work and eventually the handler will realize that they will have to get another dog to compete. As far as looking for aggression, I like to see a balanced dog. If a novice handler comes to me to see if their dog will do it and I see that their dog is overly aggressive then I tell them that I don't think it is a safe and wise decision for me to work their dog. The dog is already unstable with a owner that doesn't know anything about this type of work, so I won't put fuel on the fire and teach him that its ok to bite someone. As far as a knowledgeable dog handler, then I'll work the dog all in prey and until the dog becomes more balanced if he is heavy on the aggressive side. But I like a dog that I can work in prey and then put into a little defense and can bring him right back. To me it is fun to be able to read and work a dog and to understand why and what he is doing and to see the progress in his or her training. And I understand what you mean Mike, a dog snapping his teeth at me and wanting to bite is just everyday life any more and I guess I don't really think about how dangerous it really is either. I guess it would have to be because its FUN AS HELL!!! 
Jeff, you ain't getting old on us now are you!?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

LOL Actually Jeff I agree with most of what you said. I used to be willing to work any dog, no matter how good (or bad) it was, because I figured it built interest in the owner, and that was a good thing. But after having watched many owners come out for a few months, I busted my butt with their dog, and then they wandered away to go do something else, I've started to pick and choose what dogs AND owner I will work with. 

If someone comes to me, with a real interest in the sport, really looks like someone that 5 years from now is still going to be involved, and they have a dog that can eventually get an FRI but is going to need some work, I'll do it. I will also have a chat with them about what I think their dog can do, and that while working this current dog they should consider looking for a new dog. But there is a LOT they can learn from the current dog. If the reason it's only going to get an FRI is a lack of drive, I'll be less likely to want to work with it. But if the dog has drive, but the nerves aren't that strong, there is no reason that dog can't be taught all the FRIII excercises, just at a very low level of pressure. And if we are honest with ourselves, most people screw up their first dog. And their second and sometime their third LOL So why not have this person make their training mistakes on a dog that isn't going to go as far anyway. Then when they get their next dog, who might have the potential to go all the way, hopefully they won't make nearly as many.

Not to mention, these are the type of handlers who are usually the ones running errands, taking scores, setting jumps, etc when your club puts on a trial  

As for my personal dogs, if I have to work very hard to get the dog to "bring it", then I will work hard at getting a new dog.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Oh, I didn't answer the question about aggression. I like a balance. I don't want a lot of aggression in the dogs work, because in FR I don't feel that is very useful. But as a breeder, and owner, I do want the dog to have it, I sell just as many dogs to be used as K9's and personal protection dogs as I do sport dogs. 

How much aggression I look for in someone elses dog only matters based on their goals.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am getting old. My knees keep finding interesting ways to make me walk funny, which is why my back hurts bla bla bla LOL
The more I think about it, if I have to build drive, the dog is junk in my mind anymore.

As far as snapping teeth, well again I look at this as displacement behavior. My stupid dog can't decide to bite the decoy in the face or not. This is stupid, and many times it's all I can do not to whack the daylights out of him for this foolishness. Then he will quit. Saves me from wasting the effort of a whacking. Just kidding.

balanced dogs are balanced, not made to be balanced.


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