# Me & Deja



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

There are only 3 more months until our trial!  I'm terrified, though I AM improving in my handling skills. These were done earlier this week. I did much better today, but didn't have anyone to work the camera for me.


----------



## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

From the looks of things I think you'll both do fine at the trail.


----------



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> yes she looks great and you seem to be coming along also!!


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks. I'm actually not all that concerned with the protection phase; it's the tracking (mostly) and obedience that scares me. :lol:


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Thanks. I'm actually not all that concerned with the protection phase; it's the tracking (mostly) and obedience that scares me. :lol:


I can relate. My first try at a BH was rough. First got paired with an airedale, which he was very distracted, seemed to think it was something he should bite. But I lost it on the long down when they did the gun shot, he went for the shooter. I think he thought it was a whip crack. Luckily I yelled platz in time. Just was too rushed for the trial and we weren't ready. Learned a lot though.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

My first BH was rough, too. I think I posted about it. We passed, but just barely.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

She looks good Kirsten, you do too!
I hate doing the BH. For some reason, I get the most nervous there...

Julie


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

LOL you sound like me. I'll be doing my PDC in Oct and worry more about myself screwing up than my dog.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

What's a PDC? 

I already know that I'm going to end up screwing up, at least once. I did pretty good during the BH, but made several little errors that cost some points. Then there was the big scene that Jak made when he broke the long down when the other handler recalled her dog, but that was more him than me. :lol: That was the 'rough' part that I referred to earlier, though. It was one of those 'OMG what do I do now?!' moments.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Protection dog cert, kinda like a BH for PSA, not a title it's a pass or fail no points given. Dog is on leash part of the excersize (which is a issue for me, I had to retrain myself to handle the leash as my dog hasn't been on one for OB in months). No distractions by the decoys durring OB but they do have gunfire. Car jacking scenario, handler attack from behind and a frontal assult/courage test in the protection phase. 

I'm still working on focus under distraction so would more than likely fail a 1. Holding off till spring for that. Dog will just be 2, 3 days before trial and he is soo not mature(damn Belgian lines) yet so it's probably best to wait and not rush a 1.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

In schutzhund, do they still do gun fire in the BH? They did when I trialed but I think I heard they don't do it any more in the BH.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

No, there's no more gunfire in the BH, Jerry.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

How did the trial go? Was the tracking good?

Julie


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

It's actually tomorrow and Sunday, but I'm not competing. It's a long story, but in a nutshell, I wasn't able to convince Deja's former owner to go ahead and sign her over to me and take all of the litter she had earlier this year (as opposed to splitting two litters). Therefore, she's being bred this weekend instead and we'll have Valentine's day puppies if it takes. After they are born, the paperwork will be sent in and she'll be officially mine. THEN she WILL be titled. I'm not happy about it, but that's how it is. :-({|=


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

No breed survey no tittles and on her second litter nice


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll have to ditto that!


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I wasn't able to convince Deja's former owner to go ahead and sign her over to me and take all of the litter she had earlier this year (as opposed to splitting two litters). Therefore, she's being bred this weekend instead


Kristen : that is a shame. Not sure I understand why if she is your dog you can't title her, but that is beside the point. I would think having at least the SchH 1 would make the puppies more marketable, but apparently they are not interested in testing the dog, just making puppies. :roll: Very sad. What happens if she doesn't take? Then you missed your opportunity to title her and I'm sure they will want her bred the next season. 

I seem to remember the 1st time she was bred (without a title) you were upset about it. Now for it to happen a second time ...

That's too bad 
Julie


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

If she is a good bitch the title isn't going to make one heck of a difference.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> If she is a good bitch the title isn't going to make one heck of a difference.


And I am supposed to let you make that determination or who do you recommend prolly the breeder #-o if it worked the first time why not the second rite maybe you could give me some health updates on that first litter hip ratings, structure, teeth, hernia, testicles how is there temperament what club are they in who is working them.
I hope your breed isn't the working GSD


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

What are you trying to say, Mike?

I just said that a title isn't going to change what the bitch produces. 

Maybe you are confusing me with other people you have argued with.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Kristen: When you got Deja did she already have the BH and was she being worked towards her titles, or was she not being worked and you started her out and put the BH on her?

Julie


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> What are you trying to say, Mike?
> 
> I just said that a title isn't going to change what the bitch produces.
> 
> Maybe you are confusing me with other people you have argued with.


You are rite and I agree the title doesn't make the dog. 
Hell I think I could have put one of my kids through college with stud service money from my shitter SCH III Rottweiler had I opted to breed him. I did not he had nothing to offer for the betterment of the breed.
Many people think the title makes the dog or at least breed able. Pffffft Just a estimation but I would say maybe 10% of the dogs that earn a Schutzhund title should be breed and just because a dog is a points dog doesn't mean shit eater. 
I do however think if you are going to breed working GSD's the effort should be made to kore, breed survey, DNA, hips and elbows and Schutzhund title. 
If you do all this I may pay you 1500 dollars for a puppy maybe more. That is if I like the breeding.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

When I got her, she had the BH, but had not been worked in at least a couple of years, though she _had_ been started in all three phases. 

I made a verbal agreement (yes, I know I should have gotten it on paper) with her owner to split two litters and then they would sign her over to me. On paper, she still belongs to them; I'm not listed as co-owner or anything. I was initially under the impression that I would get to title her first; when she came into heat a few weeks after I brought her home, nothing was said about breeding her then, so I assumed (yes, I know) that was still the plan. After New Year's, they said they wanted to get business out of the way and to breed her on her next heat. I protested, but it was useless. 

After that litter was sold, I offered them all the money from that litter to go ahead and sign her over, since they said they wanted to get it over with. What's the difference between taking a whole litter instead of splitting two, after all? In the meantime, I started trying to get Deja ready to compete at our trial this month. Well, in August, they decided that no, they didn't want me to trial her because they wanted her to be a HOT dog, and if I trialed her, she wouldn't be. I don't know what the heck difference it makes, but whatever. They also decided that they wanted her bred again, for whatever reason, before they would sign her over. 

Long story short, if I want her, I have to breed her this one last time. 



I don't know anything, really, about her first litter, because it took place before I ever entered the picture. It was by the same male she is being bred to this time. I'm told that that breeding produced some nice puppies, but I have no idea where they went. Two of the puppies from her spring litter, by a different male, are with club members. One is in a working home in Alabama, and two are in pet homes (though I know for a fact that _one_ of those NEEDS to be in a working home - oh well). 




Mike, Deja's a little old to worry about doing a breed survey with, but I'll title her to SchH 1 next year when she's officially mine. With different owners, she _could_ have gone to the Nationals, and possibly even the Worlds; she's a super nice dog, and from what I've seen, she produces well. Unfortunately, she kind of missed the boat. You'll be happy to know that my younger bitch, Naccia, _will _be breed surveyed. There are no strings attached to her. :wink:

When did I say I was charging $1,500 for a puppy?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Mike, Deja's a little old to worry about doing a breed survey with, but I'll title her to SchH 1 next year when she's officially mine. With different owners, she _could_ have gone to the Nationals, and possibly even the Worlds; she's a super nice dog, and from what I've seen, she produces well. Unfortunately, she kind of missed the boat. You'll be happy to know that my younger bitch, Naccia, _will _be breed surveyed. There are no strings attached to her. :wink:
> 
> When did I say I was charging $1,500 for a puppy?


That's a rather sad story and the people that own her sound like some real tools hope the pups are healthy and no one comes back for health refunds.
I chose my words wrong 1500 is the lower end of what I would pay for a well bread high potential pup.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Mike, are you saying you wouldn't waste your money on a $1000 or $1200 puppy? I swing the other way and wont spend over $1500, so far haven't paid more than $1000. The $1500 pup we had a deposit on I declined to take after the eval. Don't know about you but I can find allot of super nice pups, well bred and what I want/need in that price range. Paying more is in no way a way to get a better dog. A pup is a pup and they are all crap shoots so why pay more?


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> When I got her, she had the BH,
> 
> Well, in August, they decided that no, they didn't want me to trial her because they wanted her to be a HOT dog, and if I trialed her, she wouldn't be.
> 
> ...


Well, if she already had the BH when you got her, you can't claim her HOT anyways. So, I think that was an interesting reason.

I agree the title does not make the dog. I also don't think you have to have the title to bred the dog either. I personally would breed to an untitled dog provided I have seen the work, how the dog acts and behaves in every day life, and with health clearances than one I have never seen and is SchH1. But I would much rather prefer one with all of the above qualities with a title and breed survey. 

My retired female got her AD after she was 6 years old. She is SchH1 with Good hips, normal elbows, very nice pedigree and a fine working female. Did I breed her? Nope. Do I think she would have made nice puppies? Yes, I do. But not every dog with a title should or needs to be bred.

But by your own admission your female is breed quality, so why not go ahead and go for the Koer? You will have her 1 by next year anyways. 

Whether you chose to bred a dog with or without titles, with or without health clearances (which I know you haven't done) that really isn't my issue or even my business. If I don't like it, I just don't buy one of the puppies. It's that easy.

I just hate it when I see people giving crap to others and they turn around and do the same thing. It annoys the piss out of me. I have seen you raise the red flag at others, but you don't have a problem side stepping and spewing excuses when it's about you and that is why I am being such a PITA.

I'm not sure if it's just because it is online, but I also get this very condescending attitude from you. Whenever someone posts something about a dog, you immediately try to pick apart their performances. Whether it's the handling, the training, or even the helper work. How many times have you worked a trial or sleeved a dog?

For someone that has done one BH it blows my mind you think you even have the experience to make those types of assessments. National level or possibly Worlds?? How did you come up with that?
Or was this something the previous owner told you so you would fold to that ridiculous agreement?

ugh =;
Julie


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> if she already had the BH when you got her, you can't claim her HOT anyways.


I wasn't trying to. That was the reason they gave me. Regardless, I couldn't claim her HOT because my name is not on her papers. I could care less. It makes no difference to me.




> why not go ahead and go for the Koer?


Two words - conformation ring. :lol: She would not show well. That's as deep as I'm going to go into it. It doesn't have anything to do with her looks.




> Whether you chose to bred a dog with or without titles, with or without health clearances (which I know you haven't done)


You know I haven't done what? The health clearances or not breeding without them? She's OFA'd, her heart checked out fine, & thyroid issues would have been apparent by now if she had any. What more would you have me do?




> I'm not sure if it's just because it is online, but I also get this very condescending attitude from you. Whenever someone posts something about a dog, you immediately try to pick apart their performances.


I pick apart my _OWN_ performances, and will freely talk about my dogs' faults just as much as anyone else's. I've always been a critical person. I don't mean to come across as condescending, though. Maybe I need to use more smilies. :lol: I've not been told I have such an attitude in real life.




> For someone that has done one BH it blows my mind you think you even have the experience to make those types of assessments. National level or possibly Worlds?? How did you come up with that?


I didn't come up with that. That's what my TD, who helped them _get_ Deja, so has known her since she was 8 weeks old, told me after I'd had Deja for several months. All I was doing was repeating what he said.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Two words - conformation ring. :lol: She would not show well. That's as deep as I'm going to go into it. It doesn't have anything to do with her looks.


Are you trying to say she will react badly to the gunfire, is dog aggressive, or can't gait? All of those things are the reason why putting a dog in the ring DOES account for something.



Kristen Cabe said:


> You know I haven't done what? The health clearances or not breeding without them? She's OFA'd, her heart checked out fine, & thyroid issues would have been apparent by now if she had any. What more would you have me do?


I know you have not bred a dog without doing the health clearances first. 



Kristen Cabe said:


> I pick apart my _OWN_ performances, and will freely talk about my dogs' faults just as much as anyone else's.


The only thing I ever see you talking about your dog is when comparing it to good performances.  "Dejay does that too" etc. etc. You even brag about the fact your dog is aggressive and WILL BITE if someone approaches the car. And now she is okay with 'drive-thrus'... didn't realize someone handing you a happy meal through the window was a threat...



Kristen Cabe said:


> I didn't come up with that. That's what my TD, who helped them _get_ Deja, so has known her since she was 8 weeks old, told me after I'd had Deja for several months. All I was doing was repeating what he said.


So, why didn't he or anyone else in the club buy this dog? Why then did she go to someone that wasn't even serious enough about her training to continue ? You also didn't say it wasn't from your assessment until I called you out on it

I don't think it's the lack of happy faces that makes your comments rude and condescending it is your lack of experience and your over critical nature to everyone BUT yourself.
Show me where you have spoken of any shortcomings of your dog or your handling and training, and I will stand corrected.

Julie


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Are you trying to say she will react badly to the gunfire, is dog aggressive, or can't gait?


No, no, and no. It's that she goes into goofy puppy mode whenever you touch her. :roll:  She is also mouthy, so there's a big chance she'd put her mouth on the judge's hands (and not stand still) if they have to touch her. #-o




> I know you have not bred a dog without doing the health clearances first.


Specifically, which health clearances are you referring to? I told you in my last post what had been checked since_ I_ got her.




> The only thing I ever see you talking about your dog is when comparing it to good performances. ...Show me where you have spoken of any shortcomings of your dog or your handling and training, and I will stand corrected....


I do it all the time. In fact, several people just this weekend told me I shouldn't be so critical of my own dogs, when we were discussing Jak and Deja. I'm constantly downplaying my dogs' and my abilities. I'll videotape myself and watch it later and point out every little wrong thing I do and think how stupid that was, or why on earth did I do that, or what in the world was I trying to do with the leash there? 

The most recent thing I can think of where I posted about myself was when I described the experience of Jak's BH and how embarrassing it was. I'm not going to search through every prior post/e-mail I've ever made.

I think it's partly that I make a lot of tongue-in-cheek remarks. I do tend to be somewhat of a smartass, but online, such comments can be taken seriously instead of in jest or whatever.




> You even brag about the fact your dog is aggressive and WILL BITE if someone approaches the car.


And I'm the _only_ one on this board who has said anything like that about my dog? Good grief! :roll:

I ****ing give up.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> You know I haven't done what? The health clearances or not breeding without them? She's OFA'd, her heart checked out fine, & thyroid issues would have been apparent by now if she had any. What more would you have me do?.


 I was actually trying to credit you for doing the health clearances before the breeding. 



Kristen Cabe said:


> I pick apart my _OWN_ performances, and will freely talk about my dogs' faults just as much as anyone else's. I I've not been told I have such an attitude in real life.


Perhaps, but you don't do it on the forums online, which is where I read your comments about others, I have no idea what you do in 'real life'.




Kristen Cabe said:


> I think it's partly that I make a lot of tongue-in-cheek remarks. I do tend to be somewhat of a smartass, but online, such comments can be taken seriously instead of in jest or whatever.


So you're telling me a lot of your critiques are made tongue-in-check. I'll try to keep that in mind whenever you brag about your untitled bitch.


Julie


----------



## Jaana Aadamsoo (Dec 5, 2008)

I don´t want to get in the middle of your argument but I actually know a bit where you stand, Kristen. I have a dog that I would not breed if it were completely up to me but it isn´t. I have get her health tested myself, trained her so she has AD, BH and ZTP (unfortunately couldn´t go to training camp to train and hopefully IPO- it was the only time when our helper was in the country). I drove 1500 km to the male I could find TWICE and she didn´t get pregnant (she was "due" 7th Dec but nothing again). She is 4 years old (birthday today- YAY:smile and the breeder wants the two pups. Considering that pups from work and conformation titled parents are still with the breeder 7-8 month old around here, I have no idea how I am going to sell them...

The only think to do is to comply to the breeders demands and be smarter next time when getting a dog...


----------

