# bush to street to bush trailing training with Tara



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

hello you all here is trailing / tracking combination training with Tara made on a very hot israeli day with about 3 hours old trail.
the track layer put a hard trail.
i am trying new thing with the article now and it take a long time to mess with them so i cut it out from the clip. 
it was hard and hot and suprising but we made it. 
you can see the dog very consitreted and much more high nose than useual.
hope you enjoy.


*generally she mark article while standing and if i want to treat her i get her down then prize. most of the time she dont get prize for it.

https://youtu.be/EFk8xA2JXA4


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Sefi, phenomenal track! A blind man could read that dog. 3 hour set time with all that hard surface and surely pedestrian traffic. Well done sir. I'm guessing that track was at least 3/4 mile long. From what I saw, Tara kept a pretty deep nose. Nothing to complain about there. I do a crap load of hard surface tracking but my boy isn't that clean. Major props for the results you've obtained.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

that was nice! Love the transitions between surfaces. A pleasure to watch!


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

thank you Howard it is allways an hunor to get good feedback from someone with your reputation in the field.
this dog build is important to me twice becuse i do it with no known program to me i combined some traditional tracking style i learn from belgium police tracking from belgium and holland and my army unit style so i am kind of piloting the whole training togehter as i go.

i cant wait to get her on the street for the real thing and i feel we are nearly there. i still want to add more speed and more leash to her and give her more expirenace in hard problems solving.
also the evidance need more work and get her train in some tactical drills. i hope we will be ready in this fall or the begining of winter.

about this track in the overall i was happy from our work and we did got prety acuurate to the bite. 
my main problems to solve are that she is a good shape dog so after a while in the hot whetar she started to panting very hard and becuse she has good shape ifelt she was not use to track with such panting it made her more consetrated than useual but also more insecure (she was afraid to lose the trail) so every time she lost the tracks she galop ahead with high nose and try to catch the scent that the hot hard sarface send up. (it is hard to see it from that camera point of view) and it is important to me that in thos cases she will get back to track with nose down and there or on the way there she can up her nose if she need it. 
i also think it was hard for her to back track becuse of the maybe over strong consitrate.
also from the same reason she marked some of the articles a bit far from them.

so now i work more hard on tracking while panting just by giving her more short versions of this experiance. any more ideas it will be very apriciated.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

thank you Sarah i am glad you liked it.


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I definitely enjoyed watching, very nice.. Is there food on the track? Personally, while a deep nose is preferred for our confidence, it isn't necessary for the dog to work odor. Especially in the heat and dry you are in, so I personally wouldn't worry. She looked great and very eager, working hard and doing great..


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Safi, 

You talk of increasing the speed, how much have you speeded up this video? The video is clocked in at slightly more than 8 minutes. In real time how long did it take for Tara to complete the track from start to finish? And how long a lead would you like to increase too?


----------



## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Great work Sefi! Nice dog. How old is Tara?
And the laser music moved my body.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

hi Misty i am happy you enjoyed it.
about the food there is buried "right food" twice on the track i asked from the track layer one before the first change to hard surface to boost her in to it (she dug it out and eat it) second is a few steps before the bite to concetrat her on the foot prints so the smell of the bite will come from footsteps work (she skiped this one out)
there are "wrong food" all over the tracks and near the tracks which supose to distract her and she may not allow to eat. twice she is marking the wrong food on track as evidance which is fine by me. also i gave her food on some of the article she is marking.

about the deep nose or low nose i agree with you but i want it in her for some reasons:
1.as you partly said it make the dog easier to read for the handler and on a speedster dog good reading is very important.

2. my main problem was with her negative action on some of the hard serface she was galpoing ahead with high nose when i wanted her to track back when she is negative with deep nose or at least consider to do so untill she has smell in her nose. the worst thing to my openion in a high speed dog (i also dont like it in any tracker) is a dog that when negative is constantly keep moving about or a head and try to fish new scent

3. she is supose to be a very high speed tracking dog at the end of training i am still dont let her move as half as fast as she or me wanted her to work. now fast tracking dog can work with very high nose and still be good. that is not the case with very high speed tracker ithink that one reason is that when he run he create large air flow and if he dont take his nose down he will not get scent from the ground below only from the ground ahead than he less percision then you find him more circelling than moving on trail and also he will notice when negative always in a larger distance from the trail.
4. its looks good  there a few more reasons to my openion why a speedster should have deep nose but already i think i was writing to much.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Sarah i speed the video in about 25 precent i think to short the video. the track took about 13 minuets but i also cut out most of the messing arround with the article/evidance also to make the video shorter. about the leash i think i will give gradually 4 meters than speed her up than i will decide how much more. also becuse of the missions i think i will be need to change the leas length all the time even while tracking. mostly becuse of tactical reasons.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

thank you Brian i am happy you liked it.
Tara is 2.5 years old.


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Very nice, dog is very focused on his task.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent work!

As to no reward for a find I believe that a good dog with natural desire/enjoyment to track/trail can on it's own be self rewarding for the dog. .

The occasional reward from the handler is just a freebee but still nice a nice perk.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

hello khoi thank you i am glad you liked it


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

hi Bob 
thank you i am happy you like it.
in this stage most of my rewards before the bite for that dog is more to manipulate certains behaviors and less as a reward.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sefi sahar said:


> ...
> this dog build is important to me twice becuse i do it with no known program to me i combined some traditional tracking style i learn from belgium police tracking from belgium and holland and my army unit style so i am kind of piloting the whole training togehter as i go.


 You have done yourself proud Sefi. Keep at it. I had a strong feeling there was some Dutch influence in your training and it shows.



> i cant wait to get her on the street for the real thing and i feel we are nearly there. i still want to add more speed and more leash to her and give her more expirenace in hard problems solving.
> also the evidance need more work and get her train in some tactical drills. i hope we will be ready in this fall or the begining of winter.


 I find it ironic that you want more speed. In my early years we ran tracks fast. I've since slowed my dog down to a slight jog. Mainly cause I'm getting old, and I'm missing less turns. My success rate has soared but mainly it's from lots of extra training. We run 16 ft and 50 ft long lines depending on circumstance. It gives the dog a little more leeway to work the track out.



> about this track in the overall i was happy from our work and we did got prety acuurate to the bite.
> my main problems to solve are that she is a good shape dog so after a while in the hot whetar she started to panting very hard and becuse she has good shape ifelt she was not use to track with such panting it made her more consetrated than useual but also more insecure (she was afraid to lose the trail) so every time she lost the tracks she galop ahead with high nose and try to catch the scent that the hot hard sarface send up. (it is hard to see it from that camera point of view) and it is important to me that in thos cases she will get back to track with nose down and there or on the way there she can up her nose if she need it.
> i also think it was hard for her to back track becuse of the maybe over strong consitrate.
> also from the same reason she marked some of the articles a bit far from them.


 Here's the problem with getting dogs in great shape...they always want to push harder, and you have to keep up.  Just be careful in the heat. A driven dog will push themselves into heat exhaustion. Before she gets to that point, down her for a few minutes in a shady spot. Dogs can still scent with an open mouth but not as effective. Also, it is not unusual for a dog to go to a high nose during transition from soft to hard surface. I had a dog that did that. As soon as he hit a road crossing he's try to dash across to regain the stronger odor. I had to slow him down and do more hard surface tracks.



> so now i work more hard on tracking while panting just by giving her more short versions of this experiance. any more ideas it will be very apriciated.


 Just be careful. It'd be a shame to lose her to the heat after all the work you've done.


Thank god I copied this post before hitting reply, otherwise I woulda lost it.](*,)](*,)


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

"I find it ironic that you want more speed. In my early years we ran tracks fast. I've since slowed my dog down to a slight jog. Mainly cause I'm getting old, and I'm missing less turns. My success rate has soared but mainly it's from lots of extra training. We run 16 ft and 50 ft long lines depending on circumstance. It gives the dog a little more leeway to work the track out. "

we have no choice this time. i have to track and move very fast with this mission. 
i used to track fast but not that fast. but as faster we go i start to like it better.
i will try soon the line legths you mention. 

by the way how many times you train your operative dog in a week?

"Here's the problem with getting dogs in great shape...they always want to push harder, and you have to keep up.







Just be careful in the heat. A driven dog will push themselves into heat exhaustion. Before she gets to that point, down her for a few minutes in a shady spot. "

will do

"Dogs can still scent with an open mouth but not as effective. "

i agree. i also think that with enough right training they can do it better. 

"Also, it is not unusual for a dog to go to a high nose during transition from soft to hard surface. I had a dog that did that. As soon as he hit a road crossing he's try to dash across to regain the stronger odor. I had to slow him down and do more hard surface tracks. - "

i will do just as you sugested. 
the thing is that it happen mostly when she is in high panting.


"Just be careful. It'd be a shame to lose her to the heat after all the work you've done. "

i sure will


Thank god I copied this post before hitting reply, otherwise I woulda lost it.














[/QUOTE]

its happen to me to. i now right my posts on notes app than copy them here.

p.s
how do you do this forum things with the quote that become with grey backround?


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Sefi,

We do weekly in service training as a group, 5 hours every Wednesday. I try to do something every night while on duty. This year I taught my dog to heel on the right leg and between the legs. Also to change positions from a stand still. Like I mentioned before, I do a lot of hard surface tracking as much as I can, whenever I can.

Ref the quotes....

At the beginning of the quote you need to put...[ quote]...then at the end of the quote you need to put..[ /quote]. That will target the specific quote you want. So, to make numerous quotes from a single paragraph just isolate the quote with...[ quote] then end it with [ /quote] and you're good to go. 

Notice that I put a space between the first bracket and the word quote or /quote. I had to do that because it would quote what I was writing LOL. So when you quote don't space the bracket.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Howard Knauf said:


> > Hi Sefi,
> >
> > We do weekly in service training as a group, 5 hours every Wednesday. I try to do something every night while on duty. This year I taught my dog to heel on the right leg and between the legs. Also to change positions from a stand still. Like I mentioned before, I do a lot of hard surface tracking as much as I can, whenever I can.
> 
> ...


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> ha ha got it!!!


----------



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Sefi I tracked off lead exclusively for the better part of 34 years during my career. The majority of my tracks were three to five blocks in length and 10 to 20 minutes old, as I worked mostly city tracks with multiple surfaces. The majority of our training tracks replicated our real ones. We did a lot of contamination in our training tracks to keep them track sure as well. In addition I pulled all the teams off the street once a year for three days go back to on line all vegetation, wooded tracks with no contamination to get their noses back down and clear up any problems the team may have been experiencing. Both the K-9s and handlers really seem to enjoy this time.

All the teams I trained were taught this way as well. After graduating the course they had the option of working their K-9 on or off the lead. 

As I train the find and bite, we utilized outside agencies with hounds to look for lost persons and Alzheimer patients.

There were times I tracked on line however although rare. Unknown starting points, contaminated scenes, unknown last direction of travel, minor misdemeanors, all juveniles if known. 

All felonies and serious misdemeanors were done off line if possible.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sefi sahar said:


> thank you for the input.
> do you also do/ train a off leash tracking sometimes?..


 No. All of our tracks are on lead. Phil is the only guy I know that tracks off lead. Liability suits have killed this practice for the most part, especially with find and bite dogs. I have experimented with this though but my dog is just too damn fast. It is cool watching them work out a track without the human anchor attatched though.

As an aside....one night in training, myself and my best friend allowed both our dogs to do an area search for a hidden decoy....together! Neither dog is dog aggressive. It was really cool to watch two different dogs work the exact same odor at the same time. The differences weren't extreme but they were noticeable. It was an interesting exercise...especially when one dog ran into the other and there was a slight tense moment there. Once the dogs found the hidden decoy it was all about the team work and a pack mentality set in. We've also put 3 dogs on one decoy just for giggles. No issues.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> Phil Dodson said:
> 
> 
> > Sefi I tracked off lead exclusively for the better part of 34 years during my career. The majority of my tracks were three to five blocks in length and 10 to 20 minutes old, as I worked mostly city tracks with multiple surfaces. The majority of our training tracks replicated our real ones. We did a lot of contamination in our training tracks to keep them track sure as well. In addition I pulled all the teams off the street once a year for three days go back to on line all vegetation, wooded tracks with no contamination to get their noses back down and clear up any problems the team may have been experiencing. Both the K-9s and handlers really seem to enjoy this time.
> ...


whoo sir. you must gained some hell of a storys over this years...
i whould love to read any story or piece of info you can share about the trainings problams and arrests. 
and of course on the training program.
i am now working on a similar project ( not with Tara the dog on the video) and i could not find anyone who really work on fast off leash tracking with track n bite on hard serface exept mire crossings. if you have movies i whould love to see them too.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Howard Knauf said:


> sefi sahar said:
> 
> 
> > thank you for the input.
> ...


 we do that too on real time aswell.

i never try to let two tracking dogs work at the same speed on the same smell thou.

i hope the picture open well 
in the picture thats me in the suit.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sefi that was nice to watch. Really nice. I also very much applaud you for the progress you have made. I don't know if you had to assemble a program due to need or personal preference but regardless, you have done well.

I want to add a few things that aren't specifically addressing what this thread is about:

1. for those of you who keep getting kicked out, on the main log in page theres an option "keep me logged in". If you check it then no matter how often you navigate away from and to the page or in an out of threads getting kicked out and losing your posts won't happen to you. The other option is to take your chances and copy what you post before you submit it.

2. quoting, what Howard said works but each post has the "Quote" option, after it is the +" and then the piece of paper (all in blue boxes). Most know this but for those who don't:

a. If you want to quote an entire post or most of it use "QUOTE". You can also then remove the parts of the original response that you don't want to include if that suits you.

b. If you want to reply to responses from different people use the +" feature, that allows you to select which posts you want to quote in your reply. To activate each reply click on the +". I have no idea if there's a maximum to that feature. 

c. If you don't have interest in quoting anything and just want to reply then the little piece of paper icon is for blank reply.

I'm mostly putting this in for Sefi but also for those of you who have had long posts lost because you don't have the "remember me" or "keep me logged in" box checked.

One last thing, it's rather interesting running two dogs on the same track. At least to me it is, mostly from the vantage point of observing differences and slight nuances one might catch or ways each work out a problem.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

sefi sahar said:


> i hope the picture open well
> in the picture thats me in the suit.


And hello, always nice to put a face to a name (thanks for sharing it with us). Did the dogs knock you down? I can't imagine staying upright with three dogs


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Nicole!


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> Sefi that was nice to watch. Really nice. I also very much applaud you for the progress you have made. I don't know if you had to assemble a program due to need or personal preference but regardless, you have done well.


thanks Nicole i am glad you liked it.
i nedded to make this this dog build up becuse of the need of a very fast and acurate all surface tracking dog i need it to resolve a certa
in serius crime problem here in my country i searched all over the world but didnt find anything like i was looking for but i found it in parts so i learned it and now i try to patch it up.
i still dont know if i got there but i think "i am on the right track" for now. if all goes well i am planning to register for some pouchers chasing action to give us expriance of easy real catches togheter. than i will modify what need to fix up and we will apply ourself for the real deal we are training for. thistime i will get to this mission as ready as i can be and put this guys where they belongs....



> I want to add a few things that aren't specifically addressing what this thread is about:
> 
> 1. for those of you who keep getting kicked out, on the main log in page theres an option "keep me logged in". If you check it then no matter how often you navigate away from and to the page or in an out of threads getting kicked out and losing your posts won't happen to you. The other option is to take your chances and copy what you post before you submit it.
> 
> ...



thank you very much for the effort making me internet wiser. i appriciate it.



> And hello, always nice to put a face to a name (thanks for sharing it with us). Did the dogs knock you down? I can't imagine staying upright with three dogs


i dont recall if stayed stand up or not it was taken two years ago i raken as well the nocked me up some times i make to stay up most times i dont


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sefi, you sound like you have a very interesting occupation. How about I come to your country and work for you? In America we have people who hold signs that say will work for food. Mine says will work for knowledge.  I'm teasing, just a little bit.

Anyway, in all seriousness whatever you have going on over there sounds really interesting.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> [
> 
> 
> Nicole Stark said:
> ...


hahaha Nicol you will learn from me bad things only hahaha.

you are always welcome here but i must warn you it is hot. maybe you will consider switiching places with me i was allways dreamed to visit alaska.

and seriuasly if i where you i whould run to learn from Howard knauf or Phil Dobson (this guy is sendnig dogs off leash on hard sarface for 34 years damn it).


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey Sefi, Howard is probably going to be seeing me later this year. He just doesn't know it yet since I haven't lined out when I'll be down his way. Forget the dogs - cops in America really don't seem to care to socialize much with the general public in that way but, I do think it'd be fun to do some shooting with him.

Learn bad things from you? I seriously doubt it. I can't think of a time you've posted about a video or experience that I didn't learn something from it.

You are welcome for a visit to Alaska any time you like. If you ever find your way in this part of the world just let me know.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

i surely will do that. thank you.


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I've run two dogs on the same trail many times... But because they are my dogs and thus friends, I realized it was not a good idea.. It was fun to watch how the dogs worked the same odor trail, differently. But ultimately, I watched the dogs starting to work off each others odor as well as the subjects, and I didn't want that to be a focal point for the dogs - assuming that where the dog buddy went is the 'correct' path , instead of following the subject odor solo..

Anyhow, that was just my experience. On an actual mission, it is different. New subject smell and different locations tend to take over the desire to stick with dog buddy odor...


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Hey Sefi, Howard is probably going to be seeing me later this year. He just doesn't know it yet since I haven't lined out when I'll be down his way. Forget the dogs - cops in America really don't seem to care to socialize much with the general public in that way but, I do think it'd be fun to do some shooting with him.
> 
> Learn bad things from you? I seriously doubt it. I can't think of a time you've posted about a video or experience that I didn't learn something from it.
> 
> You are welcome for a visit to Alaska any time you like. If you ever find your way in this part of the world just let me know.


 Hi Nicole. Come on down. You can attend one of our in service training days. Would also love to pick your brain a little in SAR and educate our guys in scent work. Same invite to Sarah or Misty.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> Misty Wegner said:
> 
> 
> > I've run two dogs on the same trail many times... But because they are my dogs and thus friends, I realized it was not a good idea.. It was fun to watch how the dogs worked the same odor trail, differently. But ultimately, I watched the dogs starting to work off each others odor as well as the subjects, and I didn't want that to be a focal point for the dogs - assuming that where the dog buddy went is the 'correct' path , instead of following the subject odor solo..
> ...


 thats very intresting Misty.
how was that worked ? both dogs where on the same lenghs line? 
how much expriance did the dogs hade in traxking alone before you started?
did they not tend to compete with each other nose?
whay was the advantages?


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sefi sahar said:


> and seriuasly if i where you i whould run to learn from Howard knauf or Phil Dobson (this guy is sendnig dogs off leash on hard sarface for 34 years damn it).


 Nice pic Sefi! There's some good looking dogs kicking your ass. 

I'm sure Phil will agree that we appreciate the nice comments but anyone who can teach a dog to track like your girl has plenty to offer. You did a fine job with no real help. That's saying something. Besides, you're much better looking than me.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hi Nicole. Come on down. You can attend one of our in service training days. Would also love to pick your brain a little in SAR and educate our guys in scent work. Same invite to Sarah or Misty.


Definitely. The next trip down to sunny south Florida. Wished I had looked you up the last time.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

RE: Dual tracks

I should clarify. What I do is for my own edification/interest. By choice I do not belong to any specific group/organization and as such I have the freedom to explore whatever I want without consequence, or at least harm to anyone or thing in the event that what I put time and attention to doesn't pan out.

One of my passions is working dogs. I very much enjoy the fluidity of being able to look at any one thing and work it out on my own without the confines or extensive programming obtained through specific affiliations/disciplines. That said, in the grand scheme of things, I have limited knowledge of the topics our fine folks that posted on this thread who also happen to specialize and/or work out issues in the real world.

My world is more like fantasy land. I just happen to live vicariously through the teachings and experiences of others. When I can, I add things of interest to my toy box.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> Nice pic Sefi! There's some good looking dogs kicking your ass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 [/quote]

about the dog she will be worthy of your compliments after she will catch a few somethings. for now she is just a promise. i will update.

about real help i got planty of help over the years and with this dog too. all thou i didnt have a program.
hmmmmm..... even if not all help came willingly  

and all thou i did cought a few suspects and terrorists and they bubles in my days with previus dogs, i am sure its nothing compare to your guys expireances.
and expriance is what walk the walk in this job. so be sure that if i was in the u.s.a i was stick my pointy nose to more than one of your trainings.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> Nicole Stark said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Dual tracks
> ...


sounds great to me.
add to it you get to do it in ALASKA and you are living my dream.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sefi, what are these bubles you speak of? I can't imagine you blowing bubbles when you catch terrorists so maybe the bubles are something else?


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

hahaha fine... lough at my bad english.
now you will never know what terrorist /criminals bubbles are


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Actually, I happen to find your use of English rather amusing. Not laughing at your expense in a mean way, amusing as in it gives me a new perspective on how people spell the words in our terribly strange and confusing language.

I have to say, my favorite and most fun misspelling to this day is how Andreas Brovqust (sp) spelled country (cuntry).

Sefi, I think I just had an AH HA moment. Are these bubles like cells? As in terrorist cells?


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

bubbles
when you catch and submit them 
criminals and terrorists do bubbles jestures


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Now you have me thinking of criminals and terrorists twerking.  I'm off on a word hunt to figure this out! I'll be back...


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Nicole Stark said:


> Now you have me thinking of criminals and terrorists twerking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


here... suspects doing all kind of bubble jestures after i cought them.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

ha ha. On my.

So, earlier I started to think maybe this bubble gesture you mentioned was them giving somebody the finger. But after looking at your pictures I wonder if this bubble thing is like a bobble head? Like hanging heads in shame after they were caught.

Sefi, what you have done with your dog is amazing, I enjoyed that video and all the discussion that followed. This other madness about a single word I cannot figure out, well I just need to let that go.


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

When I worked both dogs together, the 'weaker' one, or the one that is confident solo, but more apt to follow the lead dog, would second guess his odor trail and/or get distracted by her working. Because of this, and perhaps the immaturity of him at the time, his boisterous antics would cause a distracting influence on my girl.

Then I started having them work the same trail, but as individuals. So I would run my boy (or girl) first, find the subject and then run the same trail with the other dog. This is where I would find the most interesting distinctions between each dogs way of interpreting odor. My speed demon girl was not always as 'clean' on the actual track (like footstep for footstep) but she was exceptionally good at streamlining to the subject (overlay of track would show she mirrored the turns, but smoothed out the edges, so if it was a 1.5mile track, she would do a 1 mile trail by not hitting the corners of the turns but rounding them out) figuring backtracks out super fast, and she is the aged trail undisputed queen (for my dogs). My boy, was slower, he is a 'head up then down' dog as opposed to my girl who is a 'head down to up.' He usually gave the 'cleaner' trail and is a ROCKSTAR in urban (my girl is really good too, but her speed can get her in trouble if I am not paying attention to her head pops etc).

Anyhow, when I would run dog over dog on same trail, I got to learn about how they worked, however, I began to see them recognize each others odor, and leave their natural tendencies to 'investigate' why the other dog sniffed the given area. I didn't like this. They did continue to make the 'find' and their subject, but I was beginning to see they were pulling towards each others scent more than the subjects, and that is not cool. So I don't do the overlay of each other on the same trail often.

Thanks Bob for the invite!! I've never been to Florida.. furthest east I've been is Colorado


----------



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

We have a corrections agency here that runs several beagles at one time with bells attached around their neck when they are called for to hunt escapees, etc; 

On more than one occasion I held up traffic while they crossed a roadway tracking. It is a funny site to observe with those bells ringing while tracking, but they have an outstanding capture rate. Some have been picked up and choked, kicked in an effort to stop the bells from ringing.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

> and all thou i did cought a few suspects and terrorists and they bubles in my days with previus dogs, i am sure its nothing compare to your guys expireances.
> and expriance is what walk the walk in this job. so be sure that if i was in the u.s.a i was stick my pointy nose to more than one of your trainings.


 We would love to haved you. From what I've seen of the Israeli Dogs videos you guys got some badasses over there as well.

In the last pic you have the dog in a muzzle. That was a real deployment correct? Why the muzzle? Just curious.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> :
> 
> 
> Misty Wegner said:
> ...


i see. tracking on the same trail a dog after the other is somthing else alright. but also intresting... its figure that they will tend to use the easiest and freshest scent to track. what was the gap of time between one dog to the next?


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> Phil Dodson said:
> 
> 
> > We have a corrections agency here that runs several beagles at one time with bells attached around their neck when they are called for to hunt escapees, etc;
> ...


haha man hunting beagles pack that is one site to see...
the beagles are suppose to be build for this pack work in evrything dont they?


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Howard Knauf said:


> > > In the last pic you have the dog in a muzzle. That was a real deployment correct? Why the muzzle? Just curious.
> 
> 
> that was a real deployment.
> ...


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

*got to hunt the other


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

sefi sahar said:


> i see. tracking on the same trail a dog after the other is somthing else alright. but also intresting... its figure that they will tend to use the easiest and freshest scent to track. what was the gap of time between one dog to the next?


Ideally, the dogs will not trail on one another. Each work the human odor in their own way. You document this on training tracks. If you let them run off-lead, you can watch them compete and feed off of each other. It can be a great motivational tool when done correctly.

When you start owning multiple dogs, personalities and pack structure come into play especially when the senior dog is used to starting first. If alpha dog is always used to working first and now you are taking out junior dogs before him, I have seen junior dogs taking this as a sign they are moving up in the pecking order and getting pretty full of themselves. I've seen senior dogs become depressed when you consistently push them down in the run order because they have been used to being your numero uno dog and now he's getting passed over.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Sarah you actually do that? 
tracking with two dogs at once? 
free of leash?
in what job, SAR?


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Mostly for SAR. Off-lead area searches, cadaver hunts, etc. If I work one dog off-lead they will work a distance and then wait for me to catch up before moving forward again. With 2 dogs off-lead, they won't wait as each does not want the competition to get to the end first so I'm left in the dust, so to speak. But one or the other will return to let me know they have found something. The other tends to stay with the subject or return back half way with the other dog and serve as a waypoint marker for the return find. 

Personally, I'm fascinated on how dogs reach these decisions between themselves and then carry that process over to the handler.

I remember one search where the terrain was really hilly and nasty vegetation and the subject had wandered everywhere. I cut the dog loose to work off-lead. When he hit a scent pool, he would 'park' me at a spot, do all his scouting around for the exit track, then come back to 'pick me up' and continue the trail. A neat trick of his that I used several times afterwards.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sefi sahar said:


> Howard Knauf said:
> 
> 
> > that was a real deployment.
> ...


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Howard Knauf said:


> sefi sahar said:
> 
> 
> > Howard Knauf said:
> ...


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> Sarah Platts said:
> 
> 
> > Mostly for SAR. Off-lead area searches, cadaver hunts, etc. If I work one dog off-lead they will work a distance and then wait for me to catch up before moving forward again.
> ...


that is very intersting. and here i understand you do talk about trailing. that behavior sounds very hunting /houndish like. faceniting to watch i am sure.
if you ever happen to film it somtime i want to watch!


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sefi sahar said:


> this is importent point you know i will give it a place in our trainings. that actually can bring more catches.
> at start i think i will let the track layer start a few meters before the destraction layer than i will make a split between the tracks than a few steps later i will put a puppyroll or buried ball or something. if it will turn up to be problematic i might aswell drag abite toy with the right tracks at the split. article of the decoy might work aswell.
> what say you?


 We actually are not far off from this in our training. I've used up to 4 track layers at one time to run a discrimination track and use a scent article at the start for the dog to target. My boy is doing OK with this. I do it mostly on hard surface which really tunes in the nose. Starting the intended track a few meters before the fresh track on top is exactly how I planned to try this thing. Good call.=D>

And a war story just for fun ....last night we had a fight at a bar downtown. One of the combatants struck one of our officers then ran away. A perimeter was set up. The guy ran towards the river so we had a good southern barrier. I start the track and my boy takes me to the chest high grass along the river. His nose is very high and he's almost on his back legs scenting the bad guy. Dog is going apeshit and I tell my backup officers that we are right on top of him. Dog actually sticks his nose through a fence to get more odor. We go over the fence and the dog dives into the high grass and I hear him hit the water. Out of nowhere the bad guy flies out of the water with his hands in the air. I call the dog out because his only bite opportunity is the head/neck area...plus I don't want him drowned. Bad guy caught and dog gets pets all round by my squad mates (after dog calms down or course.  ). I love this job.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> Howard Knauf said:
> 
> 
> > We actually are not far off from this in our training. I've used up to 4 track layers at one time to run a discrimination track and use a scent article at the start for the dog to target. My boy is doing OK with this. I do it mostly on hard surface which really tunes in the nose. Starting the intended track a few meters before the fresh track on top is exactly how I planned to try this thing. Good call.=D>
> ...


great catch Howard!
and a good choice i think for calling the dog back when you did. bites in deep water do tend to get messy.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

On scent discrimination I have a question

My dog Thunder was finding me in the woods at 12 wks old and a 10 min head start so I knew he was a natural.

The SAR team I was on had NO scent discrimination dog but I wanted to test Thunder for the hell of it.

My son, whom I used as a "victim" a lot in Thunder's early training walked across the field with his buddy to a point I was not privy to. 

At that point son and friend split up and friend dropped his t-shirt and they went separate ways.

Thunder had never tracked/trailed/air scented son's friend but he did alert on the t-shirt. 

I had already started him on article find. 

When I got to Thunder I again gave him a search command and I had no idea what scent he was trailing but it was 4-5 mins into the track and Thunder alerted on son's friend, ignoring my son's scent whom Thunder had "found" numerous times.

Thunder was 13-14 months old at the time. 

Are there many dogs that will do this naturally or was I just lucky?

After him being gone a bit more then a year I still miss the hell out of that dog if for nothing more then he was the perfect truck dog!


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I think it is a natural tendency for the dogs to be selective in what they trail, however, how powerful that desire is to trail is genetic, although can be pulled out through training - but never as strong as if it were genetic.

I think training for LE often phases the scent article out (border patrol too) and then it becomes this big hurdle and fear to use. When in actuality, it is the basest nature of the dog to trail an individual; they just usually choose who they trail.

Bob, in your scenario, I think it a bit more awesome (although you had already begun to train in rewards for scent specific finds) as Thunder ignored the more familiar scent of your son. However, it sounds like he had a strong hunt drive and instinctively knew to follow the odor of the 'scent article.'

I accidentally gave my girl a 'good girl' while she was casting herself next to an open car window (actually, all 4 windows were open) during a warm summer day. She changed scent articles (had already been scented on the scent article) because my 'good girl' came when she checked out the car, and she began to trail the owner of the car. Once I realized what had happened I was really pissed...at myself! What an idiot! :lol: I regrouped and restarted her and she made her find. Point being, dogs are quick to pick a trail to follow if given a scent article. If we don't choose (or accidentally encourage them at the wrong time) they choose, right or wrong.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Misty Wegner said:


> I accidentally gave my girl a 'good girl' while she was casting herself next to an open car window (actually, all 4 windows were open) during a warm summer day. She changed scent articles (had already been scented on the scent article) because my 'good girl' came when she checked out the car, and she began to trail the owner of the car. Once I realized what had happened I was really pissed...


Misty, 

Do you cue the scent article with a word? I usually present with a "what's this?" If it's something I can't pick up (like a door handle) then I direct with a finger as a "check" and once the dog nose is there, then it's a 'what's this'. That's the cue words for the dog that *this* is the smell to follow. 

I find it prevents the dog accidently switching scents during a trail. I can say "check" for door frames, cars, etc. but that won't switch the dog over. It's only the 'what's this' that does it.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob, Willow was very much like that but I attribute that tendency to her naturally being inclined to find and follow new things. What I mean is what you describe I have seen her do. Bring something in the house that wasn't there before, she finds it and explores it. It's gotten to the point that part of our "dialogue" is me showing her things that I have or exploring something she wants to show me. Maybe that sounds weird. I don't know...

Since we're asking questions about things, I have one. Have any of you had a track laid, with instructions for the person to remain in hiding but then for whatever reason they left the area and returned back mostly in the direction of the way they came? As in pass you and the dog?

If so, or even if not, what would you expect to happen at that point in time?


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Misty,
> 
> Do you cue the scent article with a word? I usually present with a "what's this?" If it's something I can't pick up (like a door handle) then I direct with a finger as a "check" and once the dog nose is there, then it's a 'what's this'. That's the cue words for the dog that *this* is the smell to follow.
> 
> I find it prevents the dog accidently switching scents during a trail. I can say "check" for door frames, cars, etc. but that won't switch the dog over. It's only the 'what's this' that does it.


btw, this is different than their starting command to begin the trail. So one set of words to take the odor in & remember it, and another to actually begin.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Since we're asking questions about things, I have one. Have any of you had a track laid, with instructions for the person to remain in hiding but then for whatever reason they left the area and returned back mostly in the direction of the way they came? As in pass you and the dog?
> 
> If so, or even if not, what would you expect to happen at that point in time?


This is something we practice because a lot of AlZ folks don't stop moving. It's kinda neat to watch. The dog is forging ahead and the subject is walking head-on toward us. Either of a couple of things happen. As the person walks past the dog, you see them drift over behind the person, catching their scent wake, get a "whoa, Nelly" look, realize its the right person and haul butt to catch them. The other thing is the dog doesn't drift over but continues on and at some point (usually in 20-40ft) the smell has drifted over to their trail, they stop, raise the head, do a bit of airscent and then take off after them with a high head.

I have to introduce them to the idea of paying attention to passing or seated subjects as they work because it's not unknown for the subject to flip back on you. The first time or two, the dog may not be paying attention but just keep working on until the end of the track and then look a bit lost. Some will immediate flip and begin the forward trail again. Others will just stop.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

The other thing to practice is where the subject never stops walking. The dogs are conditioned that the subject is always halted and available to them. You get someone who doesn't stop and keeps walking away, the dogs get flummoxed because they can't do their subject indication especially if it's a passive one (sit, down, etc). 

I don't really like body tags (where the dog body slams the subject) as they can launch from enough distance off to knock you on your butt and if you are old or a child..... well, not good.

I remember one workshop where they wanted this. I always held the dog off by the lead and when you do this the dog then transfers the body slam back to me. I remember one time when the dog slammed me back into a wall and my shoulder blades left indentations in the sheet rock but I digress....

Anyway, they were really wanting that jump-up ID on the subject and I couldn't talk them out of it ("Aw, come on, how bad can it be?" I've had dogs jump up on me before"). I knew this dog and he just didn't jump, he launched and nailed you with his front legs. So I finally gave in. They had no idea of what 75lbs of dog in full flight gets you. I got the dog started and hmmmm, stumbled and accidently dropped the lead..... :-\" 

Yeah, I was told to never drop the lead again.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> This is something we practice because a lot of AlZ folks don't stop moving. It's kinda neat to watch. The dog is forging ahead and the subject is walking head-on toward us.
> 
> Either of a couple of things happen. As the person walks past the dog, you see them drift over behind the person, catching their scent wake, get a "whoa, Nelly" look, realize its the right person and haul butt to catch them. The other thing is the dog doesn't drift over but continues on and at some point (usually in 20-40ft) the smell has drifted over to their trail, they stop, raise the head, do a bit of airscent and then take off after them with a high head.
> 
> The first time or two, the dog may not be paying attention but just keep working on until the end of the track and then look a bit lost. Some will immediate flip and begin the forward trail again. Others will just stop.


Good to read about these experiences. 

This situation happened on one of the tracks I put my mastiff on. At the time I was documenting her tracks and I think it was between track 15-20 that this happened. I didn't intentionally train an alert but what she does naturally is a muzzle bump and tail wag. Anyway, we were working the track and that's exactly what she did when we were approached by the track layer. 

With that dog I wasn't ever concerned if I didn't know where she was going or what the track layer was doing because like Bob's Thunder she mostly worked without fail. But this one example sat in my mind as slightly unresolved as I never really knew if what she did after encountering the track layer was a good bad or a who cares type of situation. After her muzzle bump and wag, she continued to follow the original track, she followed it back around the building and returned the same way we came and back to the person.

I knew she knew who the track belonged to and I just assumed she chose to follow the track because it seems like that's what this dogs raison d'etre.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

we teach our dogs allways to prefer the newest tracks on the chronolog of the oldest tracks and the decoy scent over the tracks scent. 

Bob your dog sounds like a great dog indeed.
i think like Misty that a dog inhert the feature to make a difrences (what the word for that) between odors some has it more than others.
and i think there is also born natural tracking intilegence that dog differ from each other with... i cant prove it thou...

Nicole your dog sound special aswell. and even more special for being a mastif... (add to it that he tracks in ALASKA and its the perfect picture)

about the decoy that keep on moving: with the track n bite dogs its never a problam we train it alot in all situations better if the decoy will run or fall into his mouth. and i think about 50% of real catches is with movment when dog nearby.

about our SAR dogs all the reason you mention of a moving decoy is why i love dog that bark standing and i allways keep the barking 1 ft meters from the decoy just untill he pull or threw the ball then i teach the dog to engage tug o war with the decoy that is also one more reason for why i prefer a ball motivieted dog that bark they are harder to shake off and easier for me to make them a "hunters" mentality.
but i think we are working SAR very difrrent than usa.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Sarah Platts said:


> Misty Wegner said:
> 
> 
> > I accidentally gave my girl a 'good girl' while she was casting herself next to an open car window (actually, all 4 windows were open) during a warm summer day. She changed scent articles (had already been scented on the scent article) because my 'good girl' came when she checked out the car, and she began to trail the owner of the car. Once I realized what had happened I was really pissed...
> ...


i do the same thing.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

sefi sahar said:


> Nicole your dog sound special aswell. and even more special for being a mastif... (add to it that he tracks in ALASKA and its the perfect picture)


Thank you Sefi. I agree and when you consider her nose from stop to nose leather is only about 2" long it changes the notions a bit about what short nosed breeds can do.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Nicole Stark said:


> sefi sahar said:
> 
> 
> > Nicole your dog sound special aswell. and even more special for being a mastif... (add to it that he tracks in ALASKA and its the perfect picture)
> ...


that is to of course but i most impress that she has the will and the wish for it.

i once trained a cane corso for tracking but it was a on a social project for comunity youth with needs and not for real work...


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

At the time, Sarah, no, I did not have a start command other than 'find her/him'. She had already walked by the scent article and I saw the wag of tail and acknowledgement of who owned it, but as she circled back and smelled into the car I somehow found myself saying 'good gi', well that was all she needed to figure the car was the scent article and off we went.. 

This story falls into the Lessons learned thread, lol.. I definitely learned to be more careful on how I scented my dogs. 

As to jump alerts, I don't prefer them at all... My girl is a lean, muscled 90lbs and I weigh 110..not going to win if she came back at any speed to let me know she found someone, lol.. And I agree, it is a detriment to aged or small, or even someone scared of dogs.. A passive alert, or a bark alert for the more rowdy of dogs makes sense..


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The Sheriff's deputy who I bred my second dog to her sport dog works a cadaver dog. She was part of the Casey Anthony trial and used her cadaver dog at a scene. Her command to hunt is "Find Fred" Funny as hell. I asked her why "Find Fred" was the command and she told me because of the movie "Drop Dead Fred"


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Yeah some SAR personnel used to use 'dead Fred' or 'stinky' but since family may be nearby they learned that wasn't a wise choice for words. So a nonsense word or a word in a different language is used so it isn't obvious what we are searching for


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Is that SAR/cadaver inside joke/humor of some sort? It seems odd.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"At the time, Sarah, no, I did not have a start command other than 'find her/him'. She had already walked by the scent article and I saw the wag of tail and acknowledgement of who owned it, but as she circled back and smelled into the car I somehow found myself saying 'good gi', well that was all she needed to figure the car was the scent article and off we went.."


I made the same mistake when, in training he made his first tree find.

He circled the numerous times at first and when he alerted aand looked up I got above average excited with praise.

For the next few training searches he would want to look into all the trees while air scenting.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Is that SAR/cadaver inside joke/humor of some sort? It seems odd.


Like firefighters and cops there can a bit of sick humor that developes in the SAR world.

It takes the edge off of what your doing.

as mentioned family can be right there so it should remain withing the group.

A search on water in particular can carry voices a log way.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Is that SAR/cadaver inside joke/humor of some sort? It seems odd.


Yep, its our gallows humor. Funny to us, but misunderstood by many. It's how a lot of us retain our sanity and keep our center. 

We eat in resturants and wonder why the tables are clearing out around us until we are an island unto ourselves. Dead bodies, talking about the guy who was broke in half that you sandwiched between 2 backboards and then flipped him open like the pages of a book so that, at least, he was laying there like a normal person. The easter egg hunt looking up into trees for the missing arms and legs that got pinwheeled off the gal's body as she skipped down the highway when the boyfriend wrecked the motorcycle. The mom handing you a blue infant yelling at you to "bring him back!"

The good ones where you felt like a god when you literally raised some guy back from the dead and meet him later in the supermarket with his granddaughter. The young boys who seem to find new ways to get their little hangy down appendages stuck into odd predicaments. The drunk guy, who on a bet, managed to shove a golden delicious apple up an orifice and then couldn't figure out how to retrieve it out again. The auto accidents. The late nights. The early mornings. The greatest adrenalin highs coupled with the rock bottom lows while absolutely loving every minute of it.


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

its apper that this black homur is international.
same here.
the hardest part with cadavar search is not to show happiness when your dog found the target.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dude, that was awesome


----------



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

[/quote]


Matt Vandart said:


> Dude, that was awesome





> thank you Matt


----------

