# How much whining do you put up with?



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Reading Jenn C's thread about her noisy Mal made me think about what to do with my noisy young GSD. Remus is 15 months old and has always been vocal, mainly whining, he seems to bark more out of defense (at the door) than prey (harder getting him to bark for his reward). He whines when he wants to do something, when he anticipates doing something and it has escalated more recently to barking at me from the crate (in the van) when we have driven somewhere to work (or just walk)--which is most days. I will get Griffin out first and that jacks Remus up enough to bark. I know I can get Remus out first and avoid some of this, but would rather find a way to get him to stop the behavior.

My older dog is silent except for his bark alert (for SAR work), so all of Remus' whining is driving me nuts.

I have tried several things to stop the excessive whining, and I find the barking at me unacceptable (I liken it to my son talking back to me). Mainly I wait out the whining, when he is silent he gets what he wants. I have tried collar corrections with and without the prong--no prong has no effect, prong elicits screaming. With the corrections he tries to figure out what I want--he tries offering behaviours but doesnt seem to be able to stop whining. 

He is high drive and pretty much just wants his ball. His drive seems to have been increasing since around 6 months and he has turned into a crack-head for the ball. He is being trained as a HRD dog and does seem to associate his ball with work--so he is always 'on' to work, even if it is just going out to the back yard.

Thoughts on how to deal with this, can I stop it or do I just have to deal with a vocal gsd??? Is it a maturity issue? He does currently have his head up his ass in general. He is a nice dog, but also stubborn about what he wants. We are definitely working on impulse control.

I do have a short video clip, just have to figure out how to post it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I think your problem stems from your dog not understanding what you are correcting him for. That's why he offers behaviors when you correct him. Teach the dog to bark at you. Then teach him _quiet_. That makes it very clear to the dog and really teaches him to shut up without shutting down.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I hope this link works...http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=1495434706594


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think your problem stems from your dog not understanding what you are correcting him for. That's why he offers behaviors when you correct him. Teach the dog to bark at you. Then teach him _quiet_. That makes it very clear to the dog and really teaches him to shut up without shutting down.



Huge ditto. This sounds like a stressed dog who is offering his repertoire out of confusion and anxiety over corrections he doesn't understand.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

To clarify--I have tried collar corrections for the whining maybe 2x and his behavior clearly showed that he did not get it. Since I dont want to be unfair to him (or shut him down), I pretty much wait for some silence, mark it and let him have what he wants (get out the door, get out of the crate, begin a walk etc).

He knows 'gib laut'. Do I say quiet and mark and reward? Once he gets it, how do you correct for whining--collar correction?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> He knows 'gib laut'.


So, you spent 15 months teaching hm to speak and now you want him to shut up


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

LOL--yeah I know. It aint the barking so much that is the problem. My 6 yr old Griffin has never even barked at the door, so it is very nice to have a dog who will alert at the door. And he is pretty sensible about it--no over the top roaring.

It is his whining that is getting old. He gets spun up when he wants to do something and cant seem to breath without making noise! Even his yawns are noisy!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

just like "leave it".

Quiet works good..

Taught it while doing bark training like was said.

correction method is what you choose for your dog, or stay full positive ..

I do think making dog be quiet and then giving them what they wanted in the first place may be counterproductive in some cases. can just start the process, dog will whine, dog will be quiet, dog will get what he wants...I usually wait for a period of time, say 20-30 mintues of quiet before I do what she wants me to LOL..

quiet works for me most of the time, occasionally have to correct, I use whatever is on the dog at the time, and if she is in the crate, a good slap on the top of the crate, and a NO works most of the time. or ecollar...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I hope this link works...http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=1495434706594


says video unavailable..


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

tried to register for youtube--that didnt happen...so am trying dropbox...If this works it shows a typical start to a walk with Remus. I get him (and Griffin if I bring them both) out of the crate and have him sit while I close up the crate and car. This day took a little longer since I was trying to tape him. He will whine the entire time he has to wait, if he is particularly energetic, he interrupts his whines with some barks.

http://www.dropshots.com/cafrhe#date/2011-01-06/10:19:12


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> tried to register for youtube--that didnt happen...so am trying dropbox...If this works it shows a typical start to a walk with Remus. I get him (and Griffin if I bring them both) out of the crate and have him sit while I close up the crate and car. This day took a little longer since I was trying to tape him. He will whine the entire time he has to wait, if he is particularly energetic, he interrupts his whines with some barks.
> 
> http://www.dropshots.com/cafrhe#date/2011-01-06/10:19:12


I did not teach the quiet for the whining, I taught it to control barking, it was pretty quick, and it did transfer to the whining straight away as well. quiet is quiet.

My dog was not too difficult, but I have seen some REAL whiners, glad I don't have one of those, barking and whining all through OB..


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> He knows 'gib laut'. Do I say quiet and mark and reward? Once he gets it, how do you correct for whining--collar correction?


What I would do with this dog is to put him on a nylon slip collar. The pinch tends to be too stimulative with most dogs. I would get the dog in a high state of drive and barking at you for a tug. Do a few bark-bite-outs with the dog. Give him his command for quiet and pull the nylon collar closed. DON'T JERK OR POP IT!!! DON'T WAIT FOR THE DOG TO COMPLY!!! Just close it. If it's closed enough, the dog can't bark or whine. *While the collar is closed* tell the dog to sit. When you see him struggling to sit slowly lower the dog's front feet back to the ground and loosen the collar. If the dog starts to whine again repeat. If the dog is silent and staring at the tug, for about ten seconds, tell him to bark again and give him the tug when he is barking well. Only do this a few times a session. Ask him to hold the quiet for longer and longer times. At other times avoid the situations that cause the worst whining. 

BTW, your pinch collar is on wrong in the video you posted. :razz:


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> What I would do with this dog is to put him on a nylon slip collar.


Just be sure it's not one of the really thin nylon slip collars. This can damage a dog's throat. The local guy, Dr. Grant, explained it to me in a way I understood but would probably be laughed at here if I tried to repeat it.

I hope it works for you. It didn't for me and my dog. Somewhere in the back of my mind I'm thinking that sometimes certain dogs don't really realize they're whining, but I haven't really figured that out all the way. I'll get to over-analyzing that some day. 

Laura


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Welll, watching the video, the dog seemed more stressed/conflicted in behavior and not connecting with you. If he screams with the pinch collar for the whining what does he do when you use the pinch collar for correcting other things. Being under your gaze is pressure for him. You marked quiet but he didn't get it. You released him for a couple of steps and then made him sit under pressure again which got the whining again. I don't see so much drive as anxiety.

Terrasita


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> What I would do with this dog is to put him on a nylon slip collar. The pinch tends to be too stimulative with most dogs. I would get the dog in a high state of drive and barking at you for a tug. Do a few bark-bite-outs with the dog. Give him his command for quiet and pull the nylon collar closed. DON'T JERK OR POP IT!!! DON'T WAIT FOR THE DOG TO COMPLY!!! Just close it. If it's closed enough, the dog can't bark or whine. *While the collar is closed* tell the dog to sit. When you see him struggling to sit slowly lower the dog's front feet back to the ground and loosen the collar. If the dog starts to whine again repeat. If the dog is silent and staring at the tug, for about ten seconds, tell him to bark again and give him the tug when he is barking well. Only do this a few times a session. Ask him to hold the quiet for longer and longer times. At other times avoid the situations that cause the worst whining.


I found that this method worked pretty well also. It's roughly the same method I used when I mentioned it on Jenn's post. I used a martingale collar though. Lance Collins was up here for a trail and stayed with a friend of mine during his visit he showed her a similar method of addressing this issue with a dog who was noisy in the kennel. I'm told the results were remarkable.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Yeah, but a 3/16" steel cable (with 2 loops on each end fashioned into a choke) works better than nylon or leather. Blocks the behavior, encloses quicker and releases quicker. You also don't run the same type of risk you do with nylon or leather of twisting and choking out the dog without the possibility of release.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Terrasita--in the video we just got out of the car. Not working yet, no commands, except to sit and wait for me to close up and lock the car. He is anxious because he wants to get going and I wont yet. He was distracted by something across the road (we were in a parking lot) which is why he kept looking over his shoulder. He normally uses a lot of eye contact with me. I havent done any 'attention' training with him because he naturally looks at me. When he wants something he stares at me, when he is very frustrated in the crate and wants out, he makes direct eye contact and barks at me.

I dont use the prong on him often, at the beginnings of walks and for some OB, otherwise he is off leash. He takes corrections when working just fine--if he is working for his ball, he is mostly quiet, even with a correction. He is focused on how to get his ball.

I will teach him a formal 'quiet' and see how that works. Right now I wait for the quiet and mark it with yes or good. But he doesnt seem to 'get it'. He'll be quiet for a few seconds, but if I move to open the crate or walk on, he whines again. 

Chris--thanks for the detailed technique....we might get to that soon!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, you spent 15 months teaching hm to speak and now you want him to shut up


Maybe the answer is: "Halt's Maul":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQCNV4KNKs


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I fostered a real whiny young Mal last year -- worst I had met -- and this sort of tedious but fast-working M.O. was what I used. I was marker-training him, so he was familiar with the process.

When he whined (which yeah, I think he was pretty much unaware of), I stopped dead and stared at him. When he finally stopped to look at me with a "WTH" look, I very quickly marked and rewarded. When I gave it a name, it was "no whine" (but who cares what you call the command).

I use the same thing for a dog leaping/bouncing/vocalizing to go out. Stand there with the leash or keys or whatever, stock still like a statue, until the dog pauses to see what the heck I am doing, then quickly mark and open the door.

Of course, the marker familiarity helps a ton because of the exact-moment clarity of giving the marker, but I guess it could be done with just quick rewarding or quick door-opening, or whatever.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Gillian--I try using 'quiet', when frustrated I say 'shut up' that actually works better LOL--but with little kids I do have to be polite!! So saying shut up in another language might help!!

Connie--he is marker trained, I use Yes as his cue that he did right and then reward. I havent done that with the whining--just say quiet and good quiet when he shuts up. But other than that--I have been doing exactly what you describe--I actually do that with most of his behaviors (once trained). 

For example: He is still very pushy with going out the door and even though I have him sitting, as soon as I touch the door, he takes his butt off the floor and leans forward....I freeze and wait until the butt goes back down.

I wait for quiet, but as I move to release him or reward him, a new whine escapes him.....I am not sure he is aware that he is making sound. He really does want to please me--I can see his wheels turning whenever we interact, so I dont want to mess him up by confusing him, but damn I am getting sick of the whining LOL!! It has gotten somewhat better in the house, but it has escalated in the van and out on walks (my pet friends keep wondering what is wrong with him or what I am doing to him).

I am going to teach the bark (that he already knows), then quiet, mark it and reward with food and see if he gets it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I hear this sometimes from my dogs when they're waiting to go out but they do not react as your dog in the video, lowering their heads and licking their lips.

My Briard used to howl when I had him on the Springer (bike) for the first 200-300 yards. He howled in the same tone when I "downed" him before Schutzdienst.

The older GSD howls before he can get to the helper.

It's difficult to stop "whining". One is probably narked by it but one has to remain calm and absolutely forbid the dog to utter a sound. If you are calm, you can place your hand over the dog's muzzle, tell him quietly "stop" or whatever command and maybe stroke him gently on his chest when he responds.

Tell me if it works - the next whiner is programmed!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I also think that whining can be construed as impatience. It's difficult to differentiate. But, whatever you don't want whining, howling, barking, etc. you stop. 

It's very easy, there are methods from hammer to "sweet whisperings" You just have to see what will stop the dog from being vocal!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Terrasita--in the video we just got out of the car. Not working yet, no commands, except to sit and wait for me to close up and lock the car. He is anxious because he wants to get going and I wont yet. He was distracted by something across the road (we were in a parking lot) which is why he kept looking over his shoulder. He normally uses a lot of eye contact with me. I havent done any 'attention' training with him because he naturally looks at me. When he wants something he stares at me, when he is very frustrated in the crate and wants out, he makes direct eye contact and barks at me.
> 
> I dont use the prong on him often, at the beginnings of walks and for some OB, otherwise he is off leash. He takes corrections when working just fine--if he is working for his ball, he is mostly quiet, even with a correction. He is focused on how to get his ball.
> 
> ...


Personally, he's young and I think you are making too much of a big deal out of it. He's not getting the quiet and he's displaying all the classic stress/conflict signals. The ear and head carriage tell me this and he's avoiding you for the most part even though he is in a sit. Also, your tone of voice. He was quiet as he looked away at something other than you and wasn't focused on your pressure. You marked it but that just got his attention. He didn't know what you were marking. You want something. He doesn't know what it is. He whines. I'm noise sensitive and really like QUIET. My GSDs vocalized when they wanted something and I could hear what I call blood curdling screams at feeding time and if I locked the back door and they couldn't get in. I'd ignore the whine and put him to work. He likes his ball, then that's what I would work through at this age and lose the collar. He's confused and conflicted and trying to put a word to a somewhat biological type response would be hard. The bark is different. The rescue BC is/was noisy in a crate. I marker trained a lie down with his head down. That is incompatible with whining/barking. I wouldn't think in terms of punishing him and stringing him up. If he is quiet for his ball I'd integrate that with getting out the car and going for a walk and rewarding calm/quiet with the ball. Build duration stays/quiet w/ rewarding with the ball. He'll get more self control as he matures. 

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"He's not getting the quiet and he's displaying all the classic stress/conflict signals. The ear and head carriage tell me this and he's avoiding you for the most part even though he is in a sit. Also, your tone of voice. He was quiet as he looked away at something other than you and wasn't focused on your pressure. You marked it but that just got his attention. He didn't know what you were marking. You want something. He doesn't know what it is. He whines."_

Spot on.
_
"I wouldn't think in terms of punishing him and stringing him up." _ Neither would I. For what? He doesn't get it yet. 

The alternate behavior incompatible with whining is a great suggestion.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"_
> _
> "I wouldn't think in terms of punishing him and stringing him up." _ Neither would I. For what? He doesn't get it yet.


It's not just punishing him it's also teaching him. Do I need to have Turnipseed give y'all a lecture on Koehler?:lol:

Have you guys ever considered that the guessing of marking training can be more stressful than showing the dog what you want using compulsion? 

Let's put you in the human Skinner box for a moment. You're in a bare room and starving. A man comes in everyday he comes in and watches you for a while and at some point he clicks and gives you a bite of food. He does this everyday and after a few days you figure out that the food comes when you wiggle your butt three times. Great you got it figured out and now understand how to get fed. 

Then one day the man comes in and you start butt wiggling. But no food comes? So you wiggle harder. You get nothing. You wiggle faster. Still nothing. WTF!?! You are going to get more and more agitated. Right? You might even whine a bit about it.  Do you want to starve for a few days while you figure out what the man want's you to do or would you rather have the man manhandling you into the position that he want's then feeding you?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Have you guys ever considered that the guessing of marking training can be more stressful than showing the dog what you want using compulsion?




Not particularly interested in another thread about markers versus compulsion. 

Or about markers versus corrections. It's an assumption, not a fact, that "marker training automatically means no corrections." 

Of course I correct. But I correct after I have taught, and then proofed for venue and distraction. Which IMHO is what training is, markers or no.

_"Then one day the man comes in and you start butt wiggling. But no food comes? So you wiggle harder. You get nothing. You wiggle faster. Still nothing. WTF!?! You are going to get more and more agitated. Right? "_

I would truly love to know where this perception comes from. Markers teach the behavior. Then comes a variable ratio reinforcement schedule. Almost takes longer to type than to do.

eta
Actually, any kind of training can be done badly. I'm thinking that bad marker training must be at least partially at fault for some misconceptions. end of eta



The hurdle of trying to get it across what a marker does, and the fact that the tangible reward's most vital role is charging the marker, and that no, marker training is NOT embarking on an endless round of "cookie pushing" (or anxiety-producing withdrawal of a stream of rewards) -- that just makes me tired now. If someone wanted to "get it," they would glance at some free Michael Ellis (and many others) video online. If someone doesn't want to "get it," fine. Lots of people are great trainers without markers! But it's tedious to keep trying to answer erroneous preconceptions .... I'm too old. :lol: It's almost nap time.

And it's so not worth another ridiculous long long thread.

And Chris, I'm not attacking YOU. Yours was just the post that "unleashed" it. :lol:

*
It's a thread about whining. Let's have it not be a thread about markers versus the world.*


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## Erin James-Crook (Oct 5, 2010)

One thing I've noticed, even in just pet cases, is that the whole behavior sequence starts waaay before the actual whining does. Can he come out of the car relaxed and quiet? If not, I'd work on that first and you might just see an improvement in general. 

You can also avoid creating the nasty whine-"quiet"-silence-work (reward)-whine-"quiet"-silence-work (reward) chain by catching moments of quiet before the whining starts, though initially your timing will have to be incredibly precise.

We're working on barking for things with Kestrel right now (the barking works to get the tug in practice, so let's try it for our ball, for attention, etc. etc.) and in addition to the tactics above, when he barks or whines, the game ends. It's having a good effect and very quickly so perhaps this might also be helpful with your dog as well.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And Chris, I'm not attacking YOU. Yours was just the post that "unleashed" it. :lol:


You didn't attack me in the slightest. You're just making your point. Cool 

With that said, I think you should talk to Mike about the stresses of marker training. I have. :-\"I maker train my dogs too.

Anyway my point is that the whining is exacerbated by stress. Trying to marker train this is going to take a long time because you can't isolate the behavior. So for the next few weeks, to months, the dog is going to be stressed about his stress so that we can teach him not to express his stress. I just don't think that's as fair or works as well as showing what we want for a few sessions and being done with this problem. 

Also, because you can't isolate the problem you may be opening up a huge can of superstitious associations.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> ... my point is that the whining is exacerbated by stress. Trying to marker train this is going to take a long time because you can't isolate the behavior. So for the next few weeks, to months, the dog is going to be stressed about his stress so that we can teach him not to express his stress. I just don't think that's as fair or works as well as showing what we want for a few sessions and being done with this problem.
> 
> Also, because you can't isolate the problem you may be opening up a huge can of superstitious associations.


I understand your point. In fact, I do believe that fully understand it now that I've stopped assuming! =D>



I think I can isolate the behavior, because I have done so. However, I did specify that "the dog was familiar with the marker process:" 

_"I was marker-training him, so he was familiar with the process.

When he whined (which yeah, I think he was pretty much unaware of), I stopped dead and stared at him. When he finally stopped to look at me with a "WTH" look, I very quickly marked and rewarded. When I gave it a name, it was "no whine" (but who cares what you call the command).

I use the same thing for a dog leaping/bouncing/vocalizing to go out. Stand there with the leash or keys or whatever, stock still like a statue, until the dog pauses to see what the heck I am doing, then quickly mark and open the door.

Of course, the marker familiarity helps a ton because of the exact-moment clarity of giving the marker ....."
_

I could be wrong, of course, but I'm pretty good (IMHO) at recognizing stress, or I think I am, and I didn't. And I could be wrong that my method isolated the behavior, but I don't think I am. 

WTH? Civil discourse?! :lol:

Please forgive me for breaking under MY stress and assuming that the "markers = stress" comment was the usual (here) "let's all pretend that we fully understand marker work done well and laugh at it." :lol:


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"He's not getting the quiet and he's displaying all the classic stress/conflict signals. The ear and head carriage tell me this and he's avoiding you for the most part even though he is in a sit. Also, your tone of voice. He was quiet as he looked away at something other than you and wasn't focused on your pressure. You marked it but that just got his attention. He didn't know what you were marking. You want something. He doesn't know what it is. He whines."_
> 
> Spot on.


I agree fully that he has no clue what I am asking for yet. Which would make him more anxious when I am pushing it. But in no way shape or form does he whine because I ask him for something he doesnt get. 

He whines long before I ask anything of him and for long periods where I ignore him completely

he whines when I put shoes on (we must be going outside), 

he whines more when the jacket goes on (we really must be going somewhere!!!), 

he stops whining as he goes through the door, (whoooHooo we're going somewhere!!)

he whines when he hits the back yard (are we going somewhere else more fun??), 

he stops whining when I put him in his crate in the car. 

He starts whining again 30 secs after I turn off the car when we get where we are going (oh yay--we're somewhere)

He gets louder as I walk around to the back of the van to open the gate (lemme out lemme out lemme out!!!!)

He starts escalating when I open the gate-there is moaning and yelping. He stops when I open the crate...he starts again while I put the leash on. If I am with friends at this point and stop to talk, he whines and might bark a time or 3. He'll sit because he is a good boy, but he doesnt want to.

He gently whines as he walks around the house when he has decided it is dinner time, stopping from time to time to soulfully look at me.....He's a whiner...

I believe in marker training. Learned about it when Griffin was over a year and was amazed by its effectiveness. Remus is my first dog started with it. I am happy to give Remus a fair shot at learning what I want before moving on to more compulsive methods. He will need to learn to cool it and control himself.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I had a pre-owned senior who vibrated and moaned (very quietly, just loud enough to grate on your nerves like chalk on a blackboard) while the supper was being put into the bowls. He too (I'm pretty sure) wasn't aware of either one. I used the stop-making-the-food-and-stand-like-a-statue method, which pretty quickly triggered a reaction: silence and looking at me, presumably to see what happened to the supper work. This took really split-second timing to capture (mark) his transition from moan/vibrate to silent/still ( :lol: ), but I was ready, like a general with a plan of attack, and it did work. 

I think it brought what he was doing into his awareness. 

He was never the brightest bulb on the tree, either, so I was extra-pleased at the quick result. :lol:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Maybe the answer is: "Halt's Maul":
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQCNV4KNKs


I didn't understand that until I recorded and played it backwards...funny, but then it sounded like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc0mxOXbWIU


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Reading Jenn C's thread about her noisy Mal made me think about what to do with my noisy young GSD.


I actually don't want to put up with any whining/noise...that is why I put up the thread. Plus it is not just the noise..it is her headspace I am disagreeing with. I don't have any noise at all in ob, in the car, playing fetch, anticipating walks or any such thing, kennel life (she does bark at stuff on the other side of her fence but not for no reason). I have been really careful about it and to never reward it.

That said, she is super easy to get barking/vocal if I wanted to. I haven't put it on cue or anything yet. At this point I am not ready for her to think that barking gets her anything. Later yes...now...no.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Connie--I do a lot of freezing lol....life takes a lot longer with Remus around. Poor Griffin cant figure out why getting dinner takes so damned long now-a-days (they both either have to sit or down until I release them). In the house it is actually slowly getting better. At least it is quieter whining and there are periods of silence I can reward. Outside the house it is worse and he has less control over himself

I appreciate the opinions and ideas everyone shared. I have been leaning towards letting him mature a bit more and hoping that non compulsive methods might work. But I fear escalation-cause I just cant deal with a demanding hysterical dog in the crate.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jenn--reading the responses to your thread made it sound like we had a different problem, but like you, I dont want to put up with noise. My first working gsd was noisy--but it was barking and that was relatively easy to fix. Griffin is silent and while I wish he would bark at the door--I LOVE the silence! 

Remus is whiny and vocal in general. But he is not super easy to get to bark in prey (he barks when he is suspicious of something-and even that barking is not excessive). He is just connecting that barking gets him his ball--so he is occasionally barking unsolicited when we play. This I dont mind since it will help his bark alert. Besides, I cant complain if I taught him the behaviour!!


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## Erin James-Crook (Oct 5, 2010)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> He starts whining again 30 secs after I turn off the car when we get where we are going (oh yay--we're somewhere)
> 
> He gets louder as I walk around to the back of the van to open the gate (lemme out lemme out lemme out!!!!)
> 
> He starts escalating when I open the gate-there is moaning and yelping. He stops when I open the crate...he starts again while I put the leash on. If I am with friends at this point and stop to talk, he whines and might bark a time or 3. He'll sit because he is a good boy, but he doesnt want to.



So he has a really strong history of whining = *doing something!!* - you've got quite the behavior chain there. 

I know if might take some time initially, but if I were in your shoes I would not be reinforcing the whining by continuing to get him out of the car (or go into the yard, or feed, etc.). In the car example above, this is what I'd be doing: 
 

I'd put him in the car as normal, drive as normal, and if he starts whining while driving, pull over and wait him out.
Once he's quiet, start driving again (this would be safer to do in a quiet neighborhood first for obvious reasons).
If he's quiet when you pull up to the park (or wherever you're headed), turn off the car. If not, let the car idle until he quits, then turn it off.
If he starts whining when you open your door, close it and wait for quiet. If he's quiet, open the door and move toward the rear door.
If he's quiet as you approach the door, open it, if not, wait.
Once the door is open, do your normal routine. If at any point he starts whining again, go back to sitting in your seat or at least out of sight around the side of the car.
If he whines as you reach toward the crate, retreat again.
If he whines as you clip the leash to his collar, close the crate door and wait for quiet.
If he whines once out of the car, put him back in the car and then repeat the applicable steps after he quiets.
Whining should now = progress toward his goal of *doing something* ceases immediately.

Consistency is key, but if he's whining to go *do* something, then making it take longer to do it should be the most effective response. IME, techniques like the one above should start showing improvement in the behavior within just a few sessions. Usually the first session is the longest and most tedious as the dog learns the new rules, the second is about half as long as he continues to learn and starts testing boundaries, the third half as long as the second as he is solely testing the rules, and then all subsequent ones are back to taking the same length as normal with the occasional testing from the dog.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Erin--thanks. Yes I do a lot of this, but havent had the time/commitment to set up the whole scenario. And often due to time constraints, I am not as consistent as is ideal. I never let him out of the crate if he is noisy. I do wait, I do retreat, I do close the gate. But I also have another dog to get out and only limited time to exercise them. But I agree, this is generally a useful strategy. I remember my daughter went through a period when she would not sleep at night (she was between 2-3yrs). We finally had her cry it out--2 nights later she was sleeping!

I did want to add that the whining decreases quite a bit after good exercise. If I exercise in the a.m. there is less whining throughout the day. If I have to wait til afternoon...life is noisier during the day.


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## Erin James-Crook (Oct 5, 2010)

Just remember that random reinforcement is the most powerful kind out there - perhaps you could find a day to just devote to the task to get you guys over the initial hump w/o time pressures?


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I videoed our first try with alternating speak with quiet. Is this the right way to do it?

Initially I thought, for some reason, to praise verbally for the gib laut, and reward with food for quiet. That did diminish his barking, so in other sessions, I reward both commands with food. This may work--if nothing else, I ask for the bark, get it and just the act of giving a new command makes him think a second or 2 and he forgets to whine.....

http://www.dropshots.com/cafrhe#date/2011-01-19/10:46:06


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I videoed our first try with alternating speak with quiet. Is this the right way to do it?
> 
> Initially I thought, for some reason, to praise verbally for the gib laut, and reward with food for quiet. That did diminish his barking, so in other sessions, I reward both commands with food. This may work--if nothing else, I ask for the bark, get it and just the act of giving a new command makes him think a second or 2 and he forgets to whine.....
> 
> http://www.dropshots.com/cafrhe#date/2011-01-19/10:46:06


yeah so he wont whine, he'll just bark  
Just kidding...

If it was me, I would work on the barking first, and when you can get a good strings of barking, then work on the quiet..

It seems like it could cause some confusion teaching the quiet and the barking at the same time...think the rewards for the barking could be faster...but that is just me...

looks good though, keep us posted on the progress...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I videoed our first try with alternating speak with quiet. Is this the right way to do it?
> 
> Initially I thought, for some reason, to praise verbally for the gib laut, and reward with food for quiet. That did diminish his barking, so in other sessions, I reward both commands with food. This may work--if nothing else, I ask for the bark, get it and just the act of giving a new command makes him think a second or 2 and he forgets to whine.....
> 
> http://www.dropshots.com/cafrhe#date/2011-01-19/10:46:06


I can't hear you. Are you telling him quiet. Does the bark have a command/cue. Does the quiet have a command/cue? It looks like he barks, then you give him food after he stops. He's not whining because he is actively working it seems--similar to what you described before.

Terrasita


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I videoed our first try with alternating speak with quiet. Is this the right way to do it?
> 
> Initially I thought, for some reason, to praise verbally for the gib laut, and reward with food for quiet. That did diminish his barking, so in other sessions, I reward both commands with food. This may work--if nothing else, I ask for the bark, get it and just the act of giving a new command makes him think a second or 2 and he forgets to whine.....
> 
> http://www.dropshots.com/cafrhe#date/2011-01-19/10:46:06


I'm not sure what to tell you because I don't really know what you decided to do.

But I do think that you should let the dog bark more and get into a rhythm for a while before you ask him for quiet. I would also have him barking for a toy.

Are you always so talkative with the dog? There is no need to fill in every silence. Don't give multiple commands when the dog knows the exercise. You are talking too much overall and every time you stop talking the dog starts offering. This is a problem. 

Give the dog a chance to sit quietly before you reward. At times you are saying quiet-yes almost like it's one word. And I think your reward arm starts moving right after you say quiet.

Like I said earlier, isolating and timing the behavior are going to be a big problem. Did you catch yourself rewarding him for offering the down? 

Thanks for posting the video. It's interesting to see people work out problems.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Joby-- He has a bark alert for HR and I have found that even though he fires up quickly at the doorbell or other sudden noises or strange people....he has a hard time barking on command or for his ball (unless he is back tied). Soooo, I am ok if he barks to get stuff (ask me again in a few weeks LOL)!!

The barking was a little subdued in the video, but when I did it again and rewarded the barking with food, he was quicker and better. Did more today and he is better.

Terrasita--I am telling him 'gib laut', and then good'--just a verbal reward for the bark in this video. I tell him 'quiet' and then mark it with 'Yes' when he is silent and then give the food. You probably cant hear that after I say "Quiet" he lets out a little whine and then stops, that is when I mark and reward. He offers the down at one point because he is a little confused (and we work on down a lot), but that is cleared up.

Today he was tested a bit more realistically. He didnt get exercised until the afternoon and was crated for several hours this morning. He was energetic and pushy when I got home and very whiny. So he got much noisier when I started getting ready to go outside. I actually put him in another room while got ready and once I was set and had treats in my pocket, I let him out. I did the 'gib laut' reward then "quiet' and reward as we were getting out the door and managed it with out whining. He was busy concentrating on what I wanted.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Like I said earlier, isolating and timing the behavior are going to be a big problem. Did you catch yourself rewarding him for offering the down? "_

Well, I see that you were correct, seeing the video.  And for the reasons you just pointed out.

Joby said: _It seems like it could cause some confusion teaching the quiet and the barking at the same time...think the rewards for the barking could be faster...but that is just me...
_
Terrasita said: _Are you telling him quiet. Does the bark have a command/cue. Does the quiet have a command/cue? It looks like he barks, then you give him food after he stops.
_
Chris said: _I'm not sure what to tell you because I don't really know what you decided to do.

But I do think that you should let the dog bark more and get into a rhythm for a while before you ask him for quiet. I would also have him barking for a toy.

Are you always so talkative with the dog? There is no need to fill in every silence. Don't give multiple commands when the dog knows the exercise. You are talking too much overall and every time you stop talking the dog starts offering. This is a problem. 

Give the dog a chance to sit quietly before you reward. At times you are saying quiet-yes almost like it's one word. And I think your reward arm starts moving right after you say quiet.
_


I almost posted after watching it but I fell down on not being sure what you had decided to do, either. _"It looks like he barks, then you give him food after he stops."_ It does. I hear a marker for quiet but not for barking, although I do hear "Good boy." I do think the reward hand is not neutral. Not sure, though.

I saw twice between 1:01 and 1:07 where the quiet command and the marker for quiet seemed appropriately separated. Otherwise I too heard quiet-yes like one word.

This is a good thing, to post this. For one thing, I realized that _I_ talk too much during some training sessions. All I do when I fill the silence is add static-y background noise that reduces clarity.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

""Like I said earlier, isolating and timing the behavior are going to be a big problem. Did you catch yourself rewarding him for offering the down? "

Well, I see that you were correct, seeing the video. And for the reasons you just pointed out.""

I was trying to respond to Chris and somehow lost it...--To this point-I had given the command 'quiet' and marked it as he started do down. Decided to give the reward because I had already marked it. Made the decision quickly, it is not my lack of timing, it is a decision. 

Actually this is my interpretation of advice I was given--a teammate and on here I saw "teach him to bark and then quiet". I realized that Chris was the one to say it here and then described what he meant in another post......I now understand how he meant for the exercise to look like after rereading--I am not going to hang Remus yet!!

I have to say--I dont get why, for the very first time, you would wait longer to mark and reward. With a sit, the second his butt hits the floor, I would say Yes and reward.....is this wrong?? If he offers silence as soon as I say the command, shouldnt I mark this with the 'yes'. 

As I said before--I was giving a verbal reward for the barking (good boy). It seems like maybe the sound was low.

And yes, I have trouble separating the marker and the reward, it seems like when my mouth moves, my hand moves. When ever I start something new, I take a bit to get the right rhythm!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

"_I have to say--I dont get why, for the very first time, you would wait longer to mark and reward." 
_
I wouldn't wait longer to mark, actually. But I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Chris was indicating that the dog could wait a bit between the marker and the reward. With a dog used to marker work, he knows the marker means the reward is on the way. If he doesn't quite, then I'd go back to charging my marker. 

_"And yes, I have trouble separating the marker and the reward, it seems like when my mouth moves, my hand moves. When ever I start something new, I take a bit to get the right rhythm!!"
_
When I first learned marker training, I practiced my "quick draw" in front of a mirror. Still do, once in a while, to check on my reward hand staying neutral as well as not jumping the gun. And it was seeing a video clip of Anne Vaini that prompted me: she was diving her hand into the bait bag the minute she gave the command. (She knew it, so I'm not picking on someone not here.) It's easy to fall into a pattern and not know it!


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

LOL--It's worse--I know what I am doing and cant seem to stop!! In my head, I tell myself to slow down, but, especially when I am just starting something, the excitement just gets the best of me!! I think also, that I am afraid that he will start to whine again before I can reward......


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> LOL--It's worse--I know what I am doing and cant seem to stop!! In my head, I tell myself to slow down, but, especially when I am just starting something, the excitement just gets the best of me!! I think also, that I am afraid that he will start to whine again before I can reward......



Practice in front of a mirror. Really!

And if he _starts to whine again before you reward,_ so what? It's the MARKER that captures the wanted behavior. Once you mark, you have released. This is a huge piece of how marking captures the split-second of the wanted behavior without worrying about fumbling out the reward.

Again, if you aren't sure of his understanding of the relationship between the marker and the reward, go back and re-load your marker until you _are_ sure.

JMO.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I would work on the quiet without the bark, just so its clear. Working on two things at once gets really muddled. As Connie says, the mark is the release---so what if he whines. He's released. Over time the idea is the more he is marked for quiet, the less whine you will get as he knows that the quiet triggers th mark and therefore the reward. Me, I'd pick a whine day/session and would attach a lead. For stuff like this I read a book or knit and doggie lays at my feet. We would work on whine and quiet. I'm kinda known for my patience and would set aside the day for this. Every time he was quiet, I'd mark/reward. If it took him hours to figure it out, I wouldn't care. I did this with my dad's Czech GSD. He was busy and he whined. He whined, I'd say no. Immediate yes/reward when he shut up. Didn't matter if it was a split second. Pretty soon he got it that I didn't want him to make noise and I wasn't going to entertain him. After he would lay quietly for awhile, I'd release him and play with him. Its funny how they figure out they can have quiet independence vs.laying at my feet under command.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Joby and Chris said, respectively:
> _
> "I would work on the barking first, and when you can get a good strings of barking, then work on the quiet."
> 
> ...




There are some dogs that whine through excitement and maybe don't even know they are doing it. 
My youngest daughter would be giggling the whole time I would be chewing her out for something. 
I finally figured that out before I killed her. :-o
What I'm saying is that to much stress in training can cause the whining and poor timing in marking OR correction will only bring about more stress in the long run.
It sounds like you timing isn't what it should be. Without that there is no method, motivational, marker, or compulsion that would work.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Joby and Chris said, respectively:
> _
> "I would work on the barking first, and when you can get a good strings of barking, then work on the quiet."
> 
> ...


If it works it works...

Just stating how I did it for the quiet..I did it at the point where the dog was barking like a fool, and would not shut up....I taught the quiet to stop the barking, and it transferred to the whining as well..really quickly...a little different application. It took only a few sessions and dog caught on very well.

I was "thinking" with more barks the quiet would be more distinct, as an interruption to constant noise as opposed between a bark or two...

Looks like it is working...keep us posted...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I deleted my post that you quoted because I had forgotten when I typed it that it's whining, not barking, we are trying to capture a "quiet" from.

But I see you're a step (or seven) ahead of me :lol: :
_
"Just stating how I did it for the quiet..I did it at the point where the dog was barking like a fool, and would not shut up....I taught the quiet to stop the barking, and it transferred to the whining as well..really quickly...a little different application. It took only a few sessions and dog caught on very well."_


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ... It sounds like you timing isn't what it should be. Without that there is no method, motivational, marker, or compulsion that would work.


Maybe a little clip of marking and rewarding something simpler would let us point out where/how the timing could be improved.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Maybe a little clip of marking and rewarding something simpler would let us point out where/how the timing could be improved.



That would be huge!
One comment about "practicing the quick draw".
I doesn't have to be Quick. As Connie pointed out, If the dog understands markers it "KNOWS" the reward will come.
To much thinking about speed.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> There are some dogs that whine through excitement and maybe don't even know they are doing it.
> My youngest daughter would be giggling the whole time I would be chewing her out for something.
> I finally figured that out before I killed her. :-o
> What I'm saying is that to much stress in training can cause the whining and poor timing in marking OR correction will only bring about more stress in the long run.
> It sounds like you timing isn't what it should be. Without that there is no method, motivational, marker, or compulsion that would work.


That's what I was sorta getting at at first Bob, its sorta biological and he's not getting that its a targeted behavior especially if she is training other things. That's why I wouldn't have any other behaviors involved with it and deal with it only. I think he's stressed with the confusion.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's what I was sorta getting at at first Bob, its sorta biological and he's not getting that its a targeted behavior especially if she is training other things. That's why I wouldn't have any other behaviors involved with it and deal with it only. I think he's stressed with the confusion.
> 
> T



Think Doc!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> "_I have to say--I dont get why, for the very first time, you would wait longer to mark and reward."
> _
> I wouldn't wait longer to mark, actually. But I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Chris was indicating that the dog could wait a bit between the marker and the reward. With a dog used to marker work, he knows the marker means the reward is on the way. If he doesn't quite, then I'd go back to charging my marker.


You are dead on Connie. Plus there is the issue that the dog is doing other behaviors at the same time. For example the dog sits and shuts up. How can you be sure that the dog is not being rewarded for the sit and not even thinking about the quiet? Lastly, the dog is becoming subconsciously quiet in anticipation of the food and watching your hand give it to him. He's not making a choice to be quiet and you need to reward the choice. 

BTW, I never told you to "hang" the dog. What I'm talking about I can do in the middle of the shopping mall and 99% of people would never notice what I'm doing. Nothing dramatic.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> That would be huge!
> One comment about "practicing the quick draw".
> I doesn't have to be Quick. As Connie pointed out, If the dog understands markers it "KNOWS" the reward will come.
> To much thinking about speed.


Of course you're right.

I guess my mirror-practicing helped me most in smooth neutral-hand no-telegraphing.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> For example the dog sits and shuts up. How can you be sure that the dog is not being rewarded for the sit and not even thinking about the quiet? Lastly, the dog is becoming subconsciously quiet in anticipation of the food and watching your hand give it to him. He's not making a choice to be quiet and you need to reward the choice.


Yup. THe wanted behavior is unclear and the unwanted behavior has not been isolated. As you predicted.

I'd like a lot to watch the dog and the O.P. do another marker session with the simplest behavior they know.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

We had a couple of relatively quiet days... I am actually rather surprised--I even wondered if he might not feel well yesterday. I have been doing small sessions with 'recharging' my marker asking him to bark. Made sure to mark, wait a few seconds (without moving--made sure to have treats already in hand) and then reward. Did a little bit more alternating the bark with silence. A few sessions just asking for quiet. Exercised later in the day and asked for little bits of quiet as I was getting out the door. I dont believe he has gotten exactly why I am marking and rewarding yet, but he is focused on me and waiting for the reward--quiet while he waits. He is certainly thinking about it.

Today we went to training--his cues are my work clothes (I am guessing the BDU pants and boots are the cues) and I was curious if he could control the whining at all. He was noisier than yesterday but was able to listen to me and got rewarded for some quiet. 

And while I was not expecting a positive response when we arrived at our training site, I tried one time to get his attention at the crate when I opened the gate (Griffin gets out to work, but not Remus) and he did his usual bit of crying and barking. Closed the gate again and he quieted down.


"Yup. THe wanted behavior is unclear and the unwanted behavior has not been isolated. As you predicted."

Wow, you guys certainly expect a lot out of a first session...I have no expectation that I will be able to isolate an intrinsic behavior so easily! This is not a clear behavior to isolate--he whines as he breathes. It will take him a little bit to figure out what I am asking for. He is thinking and knows I am asking something. He may even be quieter already (though I will not make a claim of success anytime soon).......Do you seriously expect this type of behavior to be isolated in the first 2 minute session??


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> .....Do you seriously expect this type of behavior to be isolated in the first 2 minute session??


Yup.


:lol::lol:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Yep. Me too.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

oh well...I dont!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Self fulfilling prophecy????


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Joby-- He has a bark alert for HR and I have found that even though he fires up quickly at the doorbell or other sudden noises or strange people....he has a hard time barking on command or for his ball (unless he is back tied). Soooo, I am ok if he barks to get stuff (ask me again in a few weeks LOL)!!


I'm pretty sure you've heard this from me before, but I would never reward a dog for his trained detection alert (in this case barking) outside of a detection situation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Joby-- He has a bark alert for HR

Why is your dog barking at human resources ? Why is he in the office ? How is it you cannot figure out that you are not a good trainer at all if you cannot get your dog to shut the **** up ??

7 ****ing pages and you still don't get it. WOW. Just quit.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Ahhh, the internet...gotta love it.


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