# Help please, potty training.



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Not exactly but maybe it got you to look.

There are quite a few people here that have seen just about everything when it comes to dogs, I need to ask them a basic question.

Without going into details about foundation etc, the current situation is this.

The dog in question will almost ignore commands that he knows 100% unless he's wearing a collar, obviously collar wise and without correction does whatever he's asked while wearing it.

Pretty much blows me off while wearing a leather collar or a prong, I really don't like to use electrics but, say from a basic obediance type of motivational training food or balls for reward just end up with him jumping in my face.

He was introduced to the collar to stop a behaviour that was going to shorten his life, so it was very hard and only happened on one occasion, he has worn the collar many times since then but I never had to hit the bitton.

With this small amount of info, how would you proceed ??


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Do you use motivational training? Have you used food?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> Do you use motivational training? Have you used food?


I was kinda hoping to get a reply from someone that was able to read my post.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Not exactly but maybe it got you to look.
> 
> There are quite a few people here that have seen just about everything when it comes to dogs, I need to ask them a basic question.
> 
> ...


That's the problem when you use an e-collar for avoidance training. It's hard to fine tune or go to lower levels after that :-(
I'd try to change the way the dog perceives the collar. Go to a very low continuous level and stim the dog while you're playing tug. Try to get the dog to think fun when he feels stim and not
pain and avoidance. Leave the e-collar on all the time and take
the prong or fur saver (what ever collar you're allowed to trial or 
work with) on and off when you train. The idea is the dog associates the prong/fur saver with "working" and forgets about
the e-collar, but you still can reach out and correct him. Just don't go too high. Better a continuous nagging correction, then
a fry mode. Good Luck


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

We had this discussion at training today. 

How old is the Dog Gerry? In reality if something happens and you do a million nagging corrections and constantly elevate them you are going to harden the dog especially a driven dog with pointy ears that doesn't start with a 'G'. 

A dog like this needs a meeting with god early with this type of behaviour to set the pace of leadership with him. It really sounds like he already knows what you want from him and chooses 'not' to obey and play that all cutesy game of jumping in your face. In effect just giving you the finger. 

There is 3 steps to training a dog.

1. Teach the behaviour 

2. Proof the behaviour

3. Correct the behaviour once he already knows it.

Today my dog kept blowing me off blowing me off over and over again she did the same BS on Thursday so I had to reintroduce her to my friend Herm Sprenger. Heel means heel and down means down .. if the dog decides well it only means heel when the collar is on. Well he needs to be set up for that meeting. When and only when he complies would I mark the correct behaviour and praise praise and more praise. 

The key is being in a position to correct and planning accordingly leading up to it.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The dog in question will almost ignore commands that he knows 100% unless he's wearing a collar, obviously collar wise and without correction does whatever he's asked while wearing it.
> 
> Pretty much blows me off while wearing a leather collar or a prong, I really don't like to use electrics but, say from a basic obediance type of motivational training food or balls for reward just end up with him jumping in my face.
> 
> ...


You're right it got me to look... LOL 

I don't kow how many times I have heard people say the dog knows the command 100% yet screws off. I think you are going to have to be a lot more forth coming in information for any one to help.

I use e-collars. I use them EVERY session. I have never had a collar smart issue at a trial. I know people who put the e-collar on for certain issues and it creates more issues. Others who are constantly on/off at training and then have serious control issues at trial. 

I was told along time ago the only time it comes off is on trial day (thanks Lucillano). I have argued with my TD about it but he leaves me alone now. Even with my GSD in the yard or the house he has the e-collar on. My corrections are very consistant and quick. Before a trial I gage the readiness by the fact that I don't have to push a button.... The collar is there just in case. I even use it for tracking (walking to and fro and article indication).

Ever hear the term you don't get a second chance for a first impression. The same goes for dog training. 

I have also learned with my dogs that the corrections have to be hard enough for it to have a lasting impression. Having just recieved my second spinal fusion leash corrections are highly over rated for me.

I would really love to hear more details about your dog. What sport? What seems to be the biggest/first problem you would like to tackle?

Julie


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> We had this discussion at training today.
> 
> How old is the Dog Gerry? In reality if something happens and you do a million nagging corrections and constantly elevate them you are going to harden the dog especially a driven dog with pointy ears that doesn't start with a 'G'.
> 
> ...


The dog is almost 2 yrs Geoff, I've talked to you about him a little before.

It's a conflict thing, for a ball playing a simple game of retrieve he is fine if you have 2 balls, otherwise there is no out. There is no out on a tug unless you have 2.

Praise is great, but it just makes him retarded. If I yell commands he will listen, but then he looks at me like I'm the retard.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

he looks at me like I'm the retard.[/quote]

How well does he know you? Do you think he could be right thinking this?


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I was kinda hoping to get a reply from someone that was able to read my post.





Gerry Grimwood said:


> I really don't like to use electrics but, say from a basic obediance type of motivational training food or balls for reward just end up with him jumping in my face.



Gerry you want to be a smart ass? Read this and tell me if it makes any f-ing sense. What does it mean Does it mean that you don't use electric except for motivational training? Does it mean that training with food or balls he ignores you and jumps in your face? 

You come on this board and ask for help and then are a jerk to someone trying to help?

I'm going to ignore that and expound on what i was getting at.

There is one reason why dogs fail to obey a command. They are improperly motivated. You can motivate a dog with positive punishment or positive reinforcement. Most people are going to suggest correcting a dog for failing to obey but if the dog is truly collar wise and listens to commands well when wearing a training collar then it sounds like there was a lot of compulsion used. Maybe this would be a good time to step back and make the dog want to listen. If he gets great rewards/treats for listenng why wouldn't he do it in most situations.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

> It's a conflict thing, for a ball playing a simple game of retrieve he is fine if you have 2 balls, otherwise there is no out. There is no out on a tug unless you have 2.
> 
> Praise is great, but it just makes him retarded. If I yell commands he will listen, but then he looks at me like I'm the retard.


Dogs are not that intelligent. Plus they don't know what RETARD means. I really hope you were joking.](*,)

Sounds like a simple fix of playing/outing/playing/outing etc until it is crystal clear. Some times we must set our dogs up to fail so they can learn. That should involve using a leash/collar or e-collar or both until it is 100% reliable. 

I would scrap the ball trading- you could be bribing. Therefor making a lot of grey matter instead of black and white. If the dog doesn't out the ball then you correct him to out and release him with another play- simple

Have you used a chuck it? I love mine. Dog takes off like a rocket and returns like a rocket. Spits the ball does what ever task I ask and then out he goes again.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> You come on this board and ask for help and then are a jerk to someone trying to help?
> 
> I'm going to ignore that and expound on what i was getting at.


**** you Ben.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Have you used a chuck it? I love mine. Dog takes off like a rocket and returns like a rocket. Spits the ball does what ever task I ask and then out he goes again.


Thanks Julie, I will go out and buy a chuck it.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The dog is almost 2 yrs Geoff, I've talked to you about him a little before.
> 
> It's a conflict thing, for a ball playing a simple game of retrieve he is fine if you have 2 balls, otherwise there is no out. There is no out on a tug unless you have 2.
> 
> Praise is great, but it just makes him retarded. If I yell commands he will listen, but then he looks at me like I'm the retard.





Geoff Empey said:


> The key is being in a position to correct and planning accordingly leading up to it.


Meaning never putting yourself in a situation where you give a 'known' command and can not correct for.

Gerry as well a Chuck-it will NOT fix that possessive streak unless you still use 2 balls. Chuck-its are great but if you want a clean retrieve 'to hand' one day not the best option.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Sounds like a chuck it is going to solve all your obedience problems.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Sounds like a chuck it is going to solve all your obedience problems.



That with Ben chasing after Gerry with a clicker, a halti and a bag of cut up hot dogs. There is no excuse not to be able to put a SchH lvl 6 or MR 4 on the dog with ease.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> **** you Ben.


Ohhh burn


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> basic obediance type of motivational training food or balls for reward just end up with him jumping in my face.


Start with teaching 3 behaviors:

1) Food Zen: The dog must use self-control and refrain from taking food from your hand until instructed to do so. The dog must take the food without hurting you!

2) Toy Zen: Similar to food zen. The dog must use self-control and refrain from snatching a toy from your hand until given the bite command. The dog must target and avoid biting your hand. The dog must out on command.

3) 4 on the Floor: The dog must keep its feet on the ground.

Gerry, these are basic clicker-training-in-puppy-class behaviors that this dog aparently was never taught and doesn't do on his own. Do you need an explanation how to train these with marker training? You're a smart guy - I'm pretty sure I don't need to.  But I don't know how much experience you have with motivational / marker training.

Some dogs need to be taught HOW to learn, and how to accept training. Ditch everything you think you know about this dog and everything you think the dog knows.

This dog only knows how to fight you. Until you get the basic 3 behaviors I listed down pat with no conflict, STOP training everything else. 

*THERE IS NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN TEACHING YOUR DOG TO WORK WITH YOU, NOT AGAINST YOU.*

(Yup, I'm totally yelling and NOT sorry for it. :grin: )


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> We had this discussion at training today.
> 
> How old is the Dog Gerry? In reality if something happens and you do a million nagging corrections and constantly elevate them you are going to harden the dog especially a driven dog with pointy ears that doesn't start with a 'G'.
> 
> ...





Geoff Empey said:


> Meaning never putting yourself in a situation where you give a 'known' command and can not correct for.
> 
> Gerry as well a Chuck-it will NOT fix that possessive streak unless you still use 2 balls. Chuck-its are great but if you want a clean retrieve 'to hand' one day not the best option.


I think Geoff has given you some great advice and solutions keeping them in mind will help in other issues.
I'll add being CONSISTANT with EVERYTHING making every thing black and white will make your dogs learning so much easier.
Again what Geoff said "Meaning never putting yourself in a situation where you give a 'KNOWN' command and can not correct for"


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

> Meaning never putting yourself in a situation where you give a 'known' command and can not correct for.
> 
> Gerry as well a Chuck-it will NOT fix that possessive streak unless you still use 2 balls. Chuck-its are great but if you want a clean retrieve 'to hand' one day not the best option.


That is exactly what I was trying to say when I said you never get a second chance for a first impression. 

Jackie - As far as chuck it. I don't use it for formal schutzhund OB- just for exercize. But I do make OB into everything. I was simply stating the dog learns to drop the ball in order to make the ball move.

I still am unclear on the dogs goals and how severe the situation is.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Jackie - As far as chuck it. I don't use it for formal schutzhund OB- just for exercize. But I do make OB into everything. I was simply stating the dog learns to drop the ball in order to make the ball move.


I didn't assume you did.  Looking back I understand how the comment could have been interpreted as towards you but it wasn't.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Cool. No harm no foul


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Originally Posted by Ben Colbert 
Do you use motivational training? Have you used food?
I was kinda hoping to get a reply from someone that was able to read my post.

Poor ben, reading comprehension was not a strong point in school for him


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: There are quite a few people here that have seen just about everything when it comes to dogs, I need to ask them a basic question.

Without going into details about foundation etc, the current situation is this.

The dog in question will almost ignore commands that he knows 100% unless he's wearing a collar, obviously collar wise and without correction does whatever he's asked while wearing it.

Pretty much blows me off while wearing a leather collar or a prong, I really don't like to use electrics but, say from a basic obediance type of motivational training food or balls for reward just end up with him jumping in my face.

He was introduced to the collar to stop a behaviour that was going to shorten his life, so it was very hard and only happened on one occasion, he has worn the collar many times since then but I never had to hit the bitton.

With this small amount of info, how would you proceed ??

Ok, from the small amount of info, I would tell you that your relationship with your dog is ****ed.

I would work on fixing that before you worry about training.

For me, the jumping in the face thing is an immature form of something much worse, which is biting your head and taking you to the ground.

Not all dogs will reach that level, and maybe the jumping in the face is all the dog has the balls for, but it certainly puts him in control of what goes on, now doesn't it ?

For the jumping in the face, there are several things that if I could see the dog I might have you try. Sometimes I take a step into the dog and jam him up, sometimes I will snatch the dog out of the air and drag him to his crate, sometimes I punch him in the head, just depends. My guess with the e-collar having such an impact on him, I would probably go for the punch in the head/snatch the dog by the side of the face, or neck, and drag him to his crate.

I would not use calm assertive energy.

I would then maybe a couple of hours later, take him out on his flat collar and leash and ask him to do something simple. If he did this, then I would pat him on his head and maybe take him for a walk..... maybe.

Now, if you are not a strong person emotionally, or mentally, as many many dog owners are not, then I would not suggest that they do any of the above, and maybe place the dog with someone who can, before the dog gets put to sleep. I don't know many "monster dogs" that were not created by the owners, certainly from the small amount of information you gave, I would say that he was not, as the e-collar punked him pretty good.

Maybe more information ? Don't be so cheap with it.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

This is a reprint of a post from Thomas Ravn, Thomas is the director of K9 Pro Sports in Europe, and our judge at the 2009 Championship. I was looking over some old stuff and thought this post, although general in nature, might add something to this thread.

A short introduction, Thomas is currently NCOIC of K9 Combat Tactical Deployment/Training for the Danish Royal Air Force. He is experienced, and accomplished, in Police, SchH, French & Mondio Ring, having competed at world championships and K9PS as well. But more than titles he is a true Dogman, not a title I give lightly. English is his second language and he still does it better than I do most times, but you may have to study the words a little in places I have added the underlines for emphasis.
Here's Thomas.

To Handle a Dog.
By Thomas Ravn.

To be a dog handler today is more difficult than ever, not because of the dogs, but more the fact that we live in a society where the dog’s functionality is less important for the owner than it was 100 years ago. To day it’s not only a question if the dog works, no no, it has to be pretty and cute, and if we are lucky, the dog’s color will fit the furniture.

In the modern world, way too many dogs wander around with no “job”. A lot of dog lives practically as parasites, where they suck the food out of their humans without ever having to work for it. What does a dog need a food bowl for? The dog does not have one in nature.

What has happened to us humans, do we really have so many resources that we can waste dog’s talents?

I would like to see more handlers take responsibility for their own dog, handlers who use the needed time to find out what it means to be a dog handler. Handlers who want to go in depth with what it means to lead a dog through life instead of wasting the dog’s talents.

First let’s look at the word “doghandler”, Handler of a dog, handling of a dog, dog handling.
I come from the military world, where the term handler is used a lot, the military definition for handling is: To LEAD soldiers, even in difficult situations, this means that handling is like leading.

So let’s play with the word again; dog leader, leader of the dog, to lead a dog, dog leading, to LEAD a dog through life. So, now handling of the dog has become leading the dog. And what does this mean, shall we look at our self’s as leaders of the dog? BINGO THAT’S RIGHT!!!!

What make a good dog handler? Is it the dog handler who has to eat out of the bowl first or walk out of the door before the dog does? No, that’s just a saying!

In the dog world, you often see that when food is in the picture its ‘first comes first served’, no matter where in the pack’s hierarchy the dog is.

The same goes when it comes to going out of doors, the pack leader is never the first to greet the world, they get a dog with lower status to walk out first to see if there is any danger.

A good dog leader.

A good dog leader contains a lot of the same qualities, as a human leader.

Visible leadership is something you talk a lot about, it’s the same with a dog leader, it clearly shows the dog, what the leader wants and don’t want, (in terms of both positive and negative things), but that also means that you get what you deserve. If you don’t do your job, it will have consequences, if you still don’t do your job, you will get fired.

It’s the same in the dog world, if you don’t do as you are told, you won’t eat.

Now it’s not like the dog understands that, what it didn’t do this morning means no dinner tonight, however it will grow to understand that if it does as it’s told, it will achieve praise and a food reward, however the food reward has to come from the dog leaders hand and not from a bowl.

As a dog leader, you should make sure the dog is suitable for the work it is doing, if not, the dog should change home or work, again something we know from our own world.

This can be very difficult, but if you are in this situation it’s best to just make a quick decision and then get on with it.

*There is no worse thing to do than not to praise or reward your dog for what it’s done.
*
As a leader you should always make sure they know when they have done something good (or bad)

Its through education you as a leader improve the wanted behavior.

Again it’s to do with letting the dog know if it’s doing well or not.

It’s through this education we together will achieve exactly that.

Thomas Ravn

And if I may add my thoughts the term is Pack LEADER not pack Commander!


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Bravo Butch : -)


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> For the jumping in the face, there are several things that if I could see the dog I might have you try. Sometimes I take a step into the dog and jam him up, sometimes I will snatch the dog out of the air and drag him to his crate, sometimes I punch him in the head, just depends. My guess with the e-collar having such an impact on him, I would probably go for the punch in the head/snatch the dog by the side of the face, or neck, and drag him to his crate.
> 
> *I would not use calm assertive energy.*
> 
> ...


Yup Jeff you explained it pretty well perfect how I'd deal with a mofo like this. As to me the dumb jumping up in the face and screwing around needs to be interrupted. Gerry and using your body like Jeff described is perfect. He needs an interrupter nothing like an interrupter like him falling on a well placed knee to the chest to take his wind away etc etc. 



> *I would not use calm assertive energy.*


Oh yeah you need an assertive energy but you need to be more forward with it and not let the prick bully you. I would still be calm but with more gameface don't get angry don't get sad, just gameface. 

Make it *square* for the dog if he behaves like an ass he gets his ass kicked with no emotion from you. If he behaves like you want him to do, he doesn't get his ass kicked with no emotion from you. With this dog there should be 'no' gray areas just black and white. 

Since you are working alone with this dog if you can't get help. From a safety point of view I'd make a choke collar out of a clothes line with a strong short lead that you can access in an emergency. Basically to string him up and knock him out _'if'_ he comes up the leash at you. Because from what you have told me about this dog he may fight you and probably will fight you and he will be playing for keeps. So you need some tools in place to protect you from that possibility. Sorta the same thing as not giving a command that you can't enforce. Don't get into a fight that you can't win .. so don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

BTW nice article Butch..


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I don't think coming up the leash is something this dog will do, I don't think.

It's not an agression problem, it's some type of conflict I've created when attempting obediance without a ball in my hand or pocket. I have corrected with a prong and although it's not sharpened it's a small dia HS and he will grunt but it doesn't solve anything.

An example with the collar, If I'm sitting in the backyard and he's loose with me..someone walks down the alley and he will ram the fence, put on a big show and ignore me until I approach him.

If he has the collar on he will stand and watch and growl but wont move and will do whatever I ask him, sit,down,come etc. 

I will try to make a vid this week. Mike S. told me along time ago to watch him at around 8 months and if he started to challenge to end it right then or I may end up fighting with him forever.

ps, the chuck thing was sarcasm


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I don't think coming up the leash is something this dog will do, I don't think.


Hopefully not famous last words! :-k



Gerry Grimwood said:


> It's not an agression problem, it's some type of conflict I've created when attempting obediance without a ball in my hand or pocket. I have corrected with a prong and although it's not sharpened it's a small dia HS and he will grunt but it doesn't solve anything.
> 
> An example with the collar, If I'm sitting in the backyard and he's loose with me..someone walks down the alley and he will ram the fence, put on a big show and ignore me until I approach him.


Gerry take a look at Thomas's post on the first page about the e-collar. The dog needs a way for you to reach out and touch him at all times. See if you can get some help with someone to go back to square one with the e-collar. Or back to basics with a long line. Like I said earlier it needs to be square for him. Don't let him get away with nothing. As he is playing you like a fiddle. 



Gerry Grimwood said:


> If he has the collar on he will stand and watch and growl but wont move and will do whatever I ask him, sit,down,come etc.


Which collar the 'E' or 'HS'? 



Gerry Grimwood said:


> I will try to make a vid this week. Mike S. told me along time ago to watch him at around 8 months and if he started to challenge to end it right then or I may end up fighting with him forever.


The real driven dominate Mals are the same thing depending on the work and state of drive they are in. Somewhere between 6-8 mos something has to give with only one positive outcome from ending it right there. It has do be done quick, fast, hard without mercy or emotion. 

It's possible that this is the case with your dog but to me it is a totally separate issue now that you've gone beyond that point. Forever is a long time hopefully it's not that bad. But knowing what I know I think you are in for a long haul.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Not exactly but maybe it got you to look.
> 
> There are quite a few people here that have seen just about everything when it comes to dogs, I need to ask them a basic question.
> 
> ...


This is interesting to me......but I have a question (forgive me if it is really stupid as I may be reading this incorrectly) 

I marked where I am confused in bold.....you are saying that you used the collar one time for one thing? and that it caused the dog to ignore other commands that he knew and performed before the collar was used?

(I don't have an opinion, since this is a learning thread for me, but I just want to clarify to make sure I either read it correctly or not?)


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Just occurred to me that the best thing about being a Pack Leader instead of a Pack Commander is that you never have to _"Reach out_ and touch" a dog that is following a leader, just seems a little more efficient, I dunno.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Leadership can avoid a ton of problems. Just not sure if it's trainable to a lot of folks. :-k :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jumping in your face is not an aggression problem ?? My bad, let me get out of this thread then.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jumping in your face is not an aggression problem ??


Only if they draw blood


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