# Chewy Grip Issues



## Max Laddon

Im working with an Australian Cattle Dog to get her BH right now and she is making me really proud and doing really well, but due to no fault of her own she has some trouble with her grip. Well here is some background info for everyone so I can maybe get some pointers. 

Lola is my first dog and 11 months old and 40+ lbs. When I first got her I could tell her prey drive was off the charts. She came from 2 working ACD's and would chase/tug on anything i put in my hand whether I wanted her to or not:razz:. Before I consulted a dog trainer I had always heard to never let your dog beat you at Tug to show dominance([-X), boy was that stupid! Well I slowly saw Lola stop pulling back on the tug and basically just hanging on. She would bite it hard initially but readjust fast unlike before. 

Well I got involved in a Shutzhund club and am really enjoying myself, and the trainers straightened me out and I started to let Lola win at Tug, and work on bungee line to try and build grip, but she still has not really regained that confidence in pulling it she had when I got her. 

Lola hits the Jute or soft sleeve very fast and hard and bites very deep initially but 90% of the time starts readjusting her grip quickly after. I know this might be due to her breed (I believe ACD's are bred to bite and release so they don't get hurt by cattle) but I see the potential for her to have a real nice grip through some flashes now and her past if i can just rebuild the confidence in her that she can win at Tug. If anyone has any advice let me know, thank you.


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## Mike Scheiber

Not sure you messed it up in the first place but its not your job to fix her bite your helpers are there for that.
So if there is something there if there good they should be able to figure it out.
BUT you cat fix it if its not there.
Enjoy your dog for what it brings and is, why cobble something that's may not be for bite sport.
Get your self a good working lines German Shepherd and try something else with the cattle dog if Schutzhund don't work out.
There is a very small percentage of dogs that can do this stuff and much smaller percentage that can do it well


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## Timothy Saunders

Do you have as may good repetitions as bad. It normally takes longer to fix than to do it right the first time. From the little info you have it seems that you could be on the right track( bungee) . give it time and like Mike said let the club help. training is about patience. good luck


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## Max Laddon

Thanks for the posts Mike and Tim. I should have made it clear in the first post that I am doing this for fun, obedience, to learn basics of shutzhund and to bond with my dog. I know she is not the best suited breed for the job. I plan on getting a good working line GSD soon enough and know the kennel I will buy him from. 

My helper is trying all the tricks he can to get her grip better and he is great, and trains a bunch of awsome Mals and GSD's. Im still interested to see how far Lola can get because she is a whole lot of dog, but I don't plan on putting too much pressure on her. She is having lots of fun in class and I am learning a lot about Shutzhund so at least I will be more prepared when I get my real deal GSD.


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## Mario Fernandez

You can only do so much with grips regardless of tricks, techniques, tools. When the dog precieves pressure the grip will reveal itself. Sometime people spend too much time trying to fix thing instead of realizing it is what it is and not moving on. Not saying you shouldn't try but even all dogs have some issues even some GSD & mals they too have shitty grips. Have fun you dog is still young not even a year yet...I started with an alternate breed as well. Many times I almost wanted to beat my head against the wall. How many training session you have had with Jas?. Remember this all dogs have to regress to progress. I saw you pictures you train at Deleta's? Deleta is a member of a club I belong too and Jas will sometimes come and train dogs at the club I belong too. 

Regards,

Mario


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## Max Laddon

I have been attending Jas' class at Deleta's for probably about 6-7 months and try to make as many of Jas' other obedience classes as well. Yeah training is quite frustrating but it is so fun and worth it for my experience as a handler even if Lola doesn't make it far. Im trying to get Jas on here, Maybe I will see you around. I want to get a GSD from Deleta at some point to work with soon.


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## James Downey

And just remember Max. The bites in a trial....are not very long. you only have to get a solid grip for a few moments. 

I see many trainers get a nice grip that a dog could keep for a few moments....but they want the dog to hold on like alligator and they screw it up.

But I agree with Mario....It's tough when they start chewing...it often is very hard, if not impossible to fix. Just do not fixate. train the stuff that the dog is good at. Sometimes you wow a judge enough with something else. they have a hard time seeing the faults. I know all the purists will be pissed at my posts. But we have to train the dog we have. We can let the purists make sure the breed lives on.


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## Anne Vaini

If the grip issue is because of her past experiences playing tug and NOT a nerve issue, then I think you have a good chance in improving it.

I would start by play light and easy tug at home. Let her win EVERY time after no fight at all. She'll start bringing the tug to you, intiating play. Put your hands on it, tug gently and let her win again. Step backwards, repeat. Repeat 10 - 15 times and end the session.

If her grip is weak, rip the tug out of her mouth and begin tug all over again - make her work to win back the tug when her grip is weak.

I've seen dramatic improvement in grip / chewiness by doing this. Whether or not it holds over to the decoy depends on your decoy's training skill and your dog's nerve. If your past tug play at home is the ONLY reason for the behavior, this should help a lot!

And if it doesn't work, it won't cause any harm. You dog will just like playing with you better.


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## Mike Lauer

we just had Dean Calderon up for a seminar and that was all i picked his brain on was grip
probably more than i can adequately describe in text.
But the good news is he said he has his own videos coming out

he worked my dog while he stood on a table, the dogs feet are off the ground, all 4, if he chews he falls
he grabbed his bottom jaw and held him calm and firm
did the same with the top jaw but thats a good way top get bit
did some spins
back tied him and applied a lot of pressure from the decoy

problem is text is not he medium for dog training and those concepts are confusing to me and i watched them being done over and over again

invite him to your club for a seminar...LOL
my pup is getting better


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## Ashley Campbell

I'm having much the same problem. Dog wins at tug, and chews the ever loving shit out of the tug. Grip is also weak and gives up with little resistance. I let him win at tug as soon as the grip is good, but it looks like I'm doing something wrong here because it's not getting better with the chewing.


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## Max Laddon

Thanks for the post Mike, Lola will hang on the rope/jute if she is lifted off all 4s. Here is a video from the park as an example (she found this rope hanging from tree and just jumped up to it with no prompting) 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tzPbBSE_U0

Despite the fact that she'll hang on to avoid falling she still ends up re-gripping repeatedly right when she gets her feet back on ground. Ill keep you guys posted on progress got shutzhund wens.


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## Mike Lauer

yea, some of it is just genetics

my GSD beautiful calm and full, never even trained it
my mali......constant work


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## Max Laddon

So I've been to a few classes since last time I posted. I really don't think Lola's genetics will get in the way of her grip at this point. So I have decided that although letting her win at tug quickly at home is probably helping alot(she has responded really positiveley to it, wanting to come back to me and play more instead of running around with the toy in her mouth), more importantly she is just maturing and my decoy/trainer Jas has really been bringing some intensity out of her lately. She is getting way less mouthy on the sleeve and i can see a nice firm grip in her future heres some pics from last Wednesday. Lola just turned a year old!


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## Mike Lauer

he had us back tie some of the dogs and once the dog grips the decoy pulls back hard, if the dog chews he looses. then u wait for the dog to counter another way from chewing, reward pulling, shaking any other counter that is not regripping and eventually not on the first counter but work up to more and more counters that are not regripping

he also does a "dead prey" thing where he teaches the dog to hold the sleeve calmly, sometimes holding the dogs jaws, 

again the techniques i saw are hard to explain in text


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## Max Laddon

I have definately been putting tension on leash so if she chews she loses sleeve and that combined with bungee seems to help her keep a nice solid grip.


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## Stephanie Perrier

Max, unfortuantely you will probably always battle this. A lot of ACDs are chewy biters. They are an "off" breed for a reason.
That said, working on it should bring some improvement, and if nothing else help you learn for your next dog (I never bothered titling ACDs beyond BH, though my younger one I may go in for TR and OB titles when she "retires" from other venues).


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## Geoff Empey

Max Laddon said:


> Lola is my first dog and 11 months old and 40+ lbs. When I first got her I could tell her prey drive was off the charts. She came from 2 working ACD's and would chase/tug on anything i put in my hand whether I wanted her to or not:razz:. Before I consulted a dog trainer I had always heard to never let your dog beat you at Tug to show dominance([-X), boy was that stupid! Well I slowly saw Lola stop pulling back on the tug and basically just hanging on. She would bite it hard initially but readjust fast unlike before.


I'm not sure if I understand this Max. You are saying that before you met this other trainer you were letting her win the tug? What were you letting her win for? Was it when you were tired of engaging her or when she pushed into the grip or thrashing on the grip? As a lot of times green handlers and equally green dogs when you try to 'play' tug things get lost in the translation. Then at times the dog gets rewarded for the wrong things, that's something you need to be aware of. 



Max Laddon said:


> Well I got involved in a Shutzhund club and am really enjoying myself, and the trainers straightened me out and I started to let Lola win at Tug, and work on bungee line to try and build grip, but she still has not really regained that confidence in pulling it she had when I got her.


Bungee is a great idea as well as even a static line. The only thing I see that you could try differently is use a proper agitation harness instead of a collar. I like a harness myself as it gives the dog power and with a more sensitive dog like a ACD could be beneficial to lessen the stress around the bitework with the decoy. 



Max Laddon said:


> Lola hits the Jute or soft sleeve very fast and hard and bites very deep initially but 90% of the time starts readjusting her grip quickly after. I know this might be due to her breed (I believe ACD's are bred to bite and release so they don't get hurt by cattle) but I see the potential for her to have a real nice grip through some flashes now and her past if i can just rebuild the confidence in her that she can win at Tug. If anyone has any advice let me know, thank you.


Quick question .. What do you see that makes you feel she has potential for real nice grips? 

This is her right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86CDO6vzMVA&feature=related 

If she enjoys the bite which she seems like she does, you need to lessen the stress on her. That's especially coming from the decoy, he really needs to make it fun for her. That will build confidence! He is square with her (confrontation) which works for some dogs but it really doesn't seem like a lot of fun for her. It's hard to see in this video her when she looses the bite item what she and the decoy is doing. Probably what is happening is he keeps moving into her while you try to keep tension that is what I suspect is creating stress for her. To initiate the game for her to re-engage the dog if she looses it the decoy should IMO be more animated himself with the item to build the want for it. As right now she is biting the item because he is moving threatening towards her nothing else.

Like I said earlier a bungee on a harness or a 3m line on the harness with slow drags into the decoy. Then once she engages .. tension from you and the decoy so that if she changes her grip she looses the item intertwined with quick slack and tension, on the slack she can push deeper into the grip. If she looses the bite item the decoy should re-engage with lot's of animated prey movement on the bite item from the decoy to make her want it more. Rinse and repeat .. 

It has to be about fun with a dog like this, you can't train it like a working line GSD or a top Belgian Ring dog as it just isn't going to happen. (but then you know that) Your training decoy and you need to accommodate the dogs temperament and limitations and build the dog, as part of what you are seeing is genetic and part of it is now learnt behaviour too. The learnt behaviour you can change but the genetics you can't. That doesn't mean you can't have a lot of fun with her in the meantime.


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## Max Laddon

I wasnt aware on how to properly play tug with her at all and didnt let her win much at first was what I was saying in the paragraph you were asking about Geoff. That video is definately Lola from a while ago. I don't expect her to be national schutzhund champion here (which I think I have made clear haha) but I see improvement in her all the time as she is a young dog and always changing, and when I see the percentage of times she has a nice grip compared to times like the video you posted improve drastically each week I can confidently say she is improving her grip. Anyways thanks for the tips for dealing with her ACD temperment while doing bitework. she most definitely enjoys the bite and training as do I so ill still keep you guys posted and try to take a more recent video for ya to give me some more pointers on Geoff


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## Mike Lauer

> As a lot of times green handlers and equally green dogs when you try to 'play' tug things get lost in the translation. Then at times the dog gets rewarded for the wrong things, that's something you need to be aware of.


This is exactly what I did. Watched one Leerburg video and rewarded what i interpreted as countering, which was in reality regripping, now hes a regripping fool. live and learn huh.

here's a couple pics of us working on him from a table


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## Sue DiCero

sometimes you need to go back to basics, not a sleeve. Fix the issue 1st to build the foundation, then to the sleeve.


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## Geoff Empey

Mike Lauer said:


> This is exactly what I did. Watched one Leerburg video and rewarded what i interpreted as countering, which was in reality regripping, now hes a regripping fool. live and learn huh.



Oh snap eh Mike?! :neutral: That sucks to have to detrain that. I did something similar with my adult dog as well, 3 years later if it gets stressful for her she 'could' still revert to it. So I am always training to counter that crappy job I did when she and I were green and where she was in the most impressionable age. 

Videos no matter how good they are are still no substitute for a working with a team of open minded experienced people to develop a new dog and handler.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hi:

In the same vein as what Stephanie said, what I've seen in the stock context; her age; issues with you and bite/tug; I'd take you out of it. Play fetch/retrieve games for awhile with her and leave the bite/tug work to the decoy. There are things you could be doing that you are not even aware of that could be influencing her. So to experiment, I'd let the decoy develop her. Meanwhile, study what he is doing in terms of eye contact, body position, etc. Learn what pressure on and pressure off is from the dog's perspective.

Terrasita


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## Mike Lauer

> sometimes you need to go back to basics, not a sleeve. Fix the issue 1st to build the foundation, then to the sleeve.


agreed, i still back tie him several times a week and play with just a tug


> Videos no matter how good they are are still no substitute for a working with a team of open minded experienced people to develop a new dog and handler.


agreed
5 minutes with my TD now and my dog was further than months on my own


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## Max Laddon

exactly mike, one training session with my trainer did so much more then all the reading and videos on training I tried to implement with Lola. I have been taking less of a role with Lola's prey drive and just making sure tug with me is very enjoyable the little amount we play tug the past month or so and observing Jas really get her going so I can learn how to work with her appropriately. She works with a few different types of tugs a lot and the sleeve less often but still a decent amount.


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## Geoff Empey

I'd bet that your helper and or TD hasn't worked an ACD in bite work before so I'm sure it is a learning curve with him too just to be able to begin to read what is going through her mind. The key to building her is going to be prey and making it into a game. I'm sure the purists cringe at that, but I just wouldn't care as you have to do what is right for the dog.


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## Stephanie Perrier

ACDs are also very slow to mature. They don't really "settle into themselves and their drives" until 3, often later...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

That's what I meant by the age. Its usually 3-5 that they come into their true confidence and between 9-28 months they can be all over the place in terms of how they take pressure but that can be a general herding dog thing as well. I also think the hormones affect the chicks before the first couple of seasons. I think Geoff's right on the prey thing.

Terrasita


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## Mike Lauer

we had a heeler in our group when i first started


...but not for long
like someone elses analogy in another thread why shoot pool with a rope


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## Max Laddon

lol the shoot pool with a rope analogy is a little bit of a stretch haha. It's more like why put some 5'0 midget at center when you have a 7'6 yao ming sitting on the bench. They can both make a basket but i think Yao has a little natural advantage. 

I really don't think I need another post telling me to get a Mal or Shep haha. I want to try and do schutzhund with Lola. *SHE IS MY PRIORITY NOT GETTING A SCH. 3*. She is my pet and we both have a lot of fun doing schutzhund and it really helps her obedience. I am sorry but I really do not think that me having fun with my dog and trying to learn about training is degrading the sport or anything :roll: so whats the big deal? I appreciate the informative feedback I have gotten but if your answer to any Sch. related question from someone who doesn't own a mal or GSD AND makes it clear they understand those two breeds are better suited is going to be "get a different dog" then you really don't need to answer at all. If seeing an off breed in schutzhund makes you gag just avoid any thread I start haha:lol: I'm 7 months into this training and don't see myself stopping anytime soon.


I had never heard about ACD's maturing slowly so that is very interesting to hear, thanks for that fact Stephanie and Terrasita


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## Stephanie Perrier

Max, having 2 of these guys myself, I say all the more power to you  I also have Mals, and so for me beyond the BH/AD I rarely work them in SchH. They have other activities. However, I can tell you you will probably learn more handling her with no pressure on titling. You can play around and experiment, and if/when you decide to get a dog for competition, you will have more experience 
Out of curiosity, where is your girl from?


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## Mike Lauer

text is not always the best medium to convey a message (at least at most peoples writing level)

the constant referral to the breed is not people telling to to go get another dog, it is just a reminder that all the help in the world will not make a midget and NBA star (or insert another metaphor)

a lot of people have tried what you are doing and have felt the same frustrations 
a club near me has a guy that works a German short-hair pointer in bite work
They have been bred to have a soft mouth, imagine what he is going thru

its cool, if you're anything like me you will totally screw up your first dog anyway...this will save you money

I have attempted to tell you all the techniques i have learned to improve grip, regardless of breed


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## Max Laddon

I appreciate that response mike. I am sorry I misunderstood your intentions. Lola is only a yr old so I'm not too frustrated yet but I'll get back to you in another year on that and maybe that will have changed lol


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