# Future huntin' dogs?



## Ariel Peldunas

Maybe our resident hunting dog expert can tell us if this is "real" prey drive ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpm3xqeyZeI


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## Thomas Barriano

Ariel,

Does Mike know you're giving away all his training secrets?
The chain link back tied puppy circle with a dead squirrel had been a closely guarded secret until now. I just hope you don't let anyone know about the next step in the prey drive building series
( a live squirrel on the end of the line) ;-)


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## Gerald Dunn

U just need to feed him :-\"


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## Don Turnipseed

No, it is a pup playing a game that it knows. Has nothing to do with prey drive. You can do the same thing with a paper bag or just about anything else. I know, I know, y'all saw a video that told you this was prey drive. :roll:


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## Jackie Lockard

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, it is a pup playing a game that it knows. Has nothing to do with prey drive. You can do the same thing with a paper bag or just about anything else. I know, I know, y'all saw a video that told you this was prey drive. :roll:


I must have missed it in all the bickering. Despite being female it's not my thing and apparently I skimmed through this part. Would someone kindly mind explaining what exactly "prey drive" is to a noob like myself? I always thought it was the want to chase moving things, and being "possessive" was the want to keep an object.


Mike - How long does it usually take to teach this game in its completion? They look pretty young to have caught on so quick. You must be a damn fine trainer!


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## Joby Becker

Don...if the squirrel was alive, and the puppy chased it, would that then be prey drive?


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, it is a pup playing a game that it knows. Has nothing to do with prey drive. You can do the same thing with a paper bag or just about anything else. I know, I know, y'all saw a video that told you this was prey drive. :roll:


No, we didn't see this in a video and believe it was prey drive. We made this video to be silly. And you're right, the pups are engaging in a "game" they understand and, at this point, would show the same drive for anything we can make come alive. They have drive to chase, catch and bite/kill something they perceive as prey. I'm sure they would do the same with a live squirrel ...but we didn't feel the need to sacrifice a squirrel to prove a point. The thing is, no matter what we show you, you will never acquiesce that it is "prey" drive. Now, according to the picture you've posted, prey drive is what you call it when pups explore their environment and jam their noses in holes. I'm assuming you take this as an indication of how well they will hunt for prey, which is of more interest to you because your dogs have a different purpose. For us, we not only need dogs naturally inclined to use their noses to hunt for a target odor, we also need dogs will the desire to chase, catch, possess and bite/kill something other than live game.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Joby Becker said:


> Don...if the squirrel was alive, and the puppy chased it, would that then be prey drive?


I think the squirrel would have to be alive and hidden and the pups would have to hunt for it in order to demonstrate Don's definition of prey drive.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I think the squirrel would have to be alive and hidden and the pups would have to hunt for it in order to demonstrate Don's definition of prey drive.


You are learning Areil, albeit slowly. :grin: The picture I posted was of the pups searching an area that I drug a "dead" squirrel through. You can judge how much prey drive a dog has by how much he is willing to search for it....SIGHT UNSEEN. If a dog isn't willing to search, sight unseen, you can bet the dog hasn't got enough prey drive to do anything with. Stick with me kid, I will teach you more than you will ever teach me about what you are seeing. If I want to learn how to train a dog to play games....I will contact you before Chris McDonald. Fair enough?


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## Chris McDonald

Ha, the title of my thread was not playing games… it was playing with my pup! In all seriousness not trying to bust or anything. If a dog knows the squirrel is dead, unless he is going to eat it why is him playing with it such a big deal? And is there anyone else out there that thinks all these words like pry drive are just BS or is it just me. I don’t care if it is for hunting or sport. 
Let me see if I got this some dog/sport people think that a dog needs to chase fuzzy things on a stick to be a good dog? I just don’t understand 
One day im gona make up a drive for everyone to argue over and never come to a conclusion. 

Hey I got one, I like a dog with sleep drive. Meaning if you are training for a few hours with a dozen dogs and give the dogs a break I want mine to take a nap. I want my dog to get be able to go to sleep whenever he has some down time because he should be getting some rest so he can go back to work when needed. Even if the other dogs have bad genetics and are all spun up barking and bouncing I want mine napping. My dog should work and sleep at a pace that allows him to continue for days before a major break not a few hours. Ill call it sleep drive!
I bet we can all post videos of sleep drive. What do you think we can argue about-about it


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## Jackie Lockard

What's a dog's willingness to chase something moving called? What is hunt drive defined as? What's a general interest in small game called? And is that called something different than a general interest in large game?

And what would your pups do if taken to an area not "treated" with dead drug squirrel? Would they sit on the ground and stare at the sky twiddling their proverbial thumbs without a care as to the new environment they had?


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## Chris McDonald

Jackie Lockard said:


> What's a dog's willingness to chase something moving called? What is hunt drive defined as? What's a general interest in small game called? And is that called something different than a general interest in large game?
> 
> And what would your pups do if taken to an area not "treated" with dead drug squirrel? Would they sit on the ground and stare at the sky twiddling their proverbial thumbs without a care as to the new environment they had?


Huh? what ? 
Dogs have thumbs ?:-k


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## Jackie Lockard

My apologies for the big word. 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proverbial


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## kenneth roth

Don Turnipseed said:


> You are learning Areil, albeit slowly. :grin: The picture I posted was of the pups searching an area that I drug a "dead" squirrel through. You can judge how much prey drive a dog has by how much he is willing to search for it....SIGHT UNSEEN. If a dog isn't willing to search, sight unseen, QUOTE]
> 
> 
> *Same as ball drive*  *you toss a ball in the woods and the dog looks and looks doesn't stop looking for the ball called ball drive.*


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## Thomas Barriano

kenneth roth said:


> Don Turnipseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are learning Areil, albeit slowly. :grin: The picture I posted was of the pups searching an area that I drug a "dead" squirrel through. You can judge how much prey drive a dog has by how much he is willing to search for it....SIGHT UNSEEN. If a dog isn't willing to search, sight unseen, QUOTE]
> 
> 
> *Same as ball drive*  *you toss a ball in the woods and the dog looks and looks doesn't stop looking for the ball called ball drive.*
> 
> 
> 
> Ken,
> 
> If you throw a dead squirrel in the woods and there is no dog to hear it. Does it make a noise?
Click to expand...


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## kenneth roth

Thomas Barriano said:


> kenneth roth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ken,
> 
> If you throw a dead squirrel in the woods and there is no dog to hear it. Does it make a noise?
> 
> 
> 
> it'll make a noise once it lands on the ground lol leafs crackle and pop and smash and rocks move etc wind noises
Click to expand...


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## kenneth roth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpm3xqeyZeI
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v401/hicntry/High Country Airedales/?action=view&current=00103.mp4 same thing prey drive ball drive both videos are the same type of drive


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## Jackie Lockard

kenneth roth said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpm3xqeyZeI
> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v401/hicntry/High Country Airedales/?action=view&current=00103.mp4 same thing prey drive ball drive both videos are the same type of drive


Nope, it's all just a trick the dogs learned.


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## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> kenneth roth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ken,
> 
> If you throw a dead squirrel in the woods and there is no dog to hear it. Does it make a noise?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom, i dont think Ken gets it?
Click to expand...


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## Joby Becker

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I think the squirrel would have to be alive and hidden and the pups would have to hunt for it in order to demonstrate Don's definition of prey drive.


wouldnt that be hunt drive?


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> You are learning Areil, albeit slowly. :grin: The picture I posted was of the pups searching an area that I drug a "dead" squirrel through. You can judge how much prey drive a dog has by how much he is willing to search for it....SIGHT UNSEEN. If a dog isn't willing to search, sight unseen, you can bet the dog hasn't got enough prey drive to do anything with. Stick with me kid, I will teach you more than you will ever teach me about what you are seeing. If I want to learn how to train a dog to play games....I will contact you before Chris McDonald. Fair enough?


Don, isnt that hunt drive?


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## Jackie Lockard

Joby Becker said:


> wouldnt that be hunt drive?



I guess none of these people know what they're talking about either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthdog_trial


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> Thomas Barriano said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tom, i dont think Ken gets it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes I overestimate the WDF ;-)
Click to expand...


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## Joby Becker

Jackie Lockard said:


> I guess none of these people know what they're talking about either.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthdog_trial


of course not, they are only earthdog people...and they dont have Airedales'


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## Jackie Lockard

Joby Becker said:


> of course not, they are only earthdog people...and they dont have Airedales'


Of course. Sorry, how silly of me to forget.


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## Don Turnipseed

Chris McDonald said:


> Ha, the title of my thread was not playing games… it was playing with my pup! In all seriousness not trying to bust or anything. If a dog knows the squirrel is dead, unless he is going to eat it why is him playing with it such a big deal? And is there anyone else out there that thinks all these words like pry drive are just BS or is it just me. I don’t care if it is for hunting or sport.
> Let me see if I got this some dog/sport people think that a dog needs to chase fuzzy things on a stick to be a good dog? I just don’t understand
> One day im gona make up a drive for everyone to argue over and never come to a conclusion.
> 
> Hey I got one, I like a dog with sleep drive. Meaning if you are training for a few hours with a dozen dogs and give the dogs a break I want mine to take a nap. I want my dog to get be able to go to sleep whenever he has some down time because he should be getting some rest so he can go back to work when needed. Even if the other dogs have bad genetics and are all spun up barking and bouncing I want mine napping. My dog should work and sleep at a pace that allows him to continue for days before a major break not a few hours. Ill call it sleep drive!
> I bet we can all post videos of sleep drive. What do you think we can argue about-about it


Chris, here is a picture showing sleep drive. If you know what you are looking at here, you can actually see the prey drive here in this pup.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Joby Becker said:


> wouldnt that be hunt drive?


One would think ...


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> You are learning Areil, albeit slowly. :grin: The picture I posted was of the pups searching an area that I drug a "dead" squirrel through. You can judge how much prey drive a dog has by how much he is willing to search for it....SIGHT UNSEEN. If a dog isn't willing to search, sight unseen, you can bet the dog hasn't got enough prey drive to do anything with. Stick with me kid, I will teach you more than you will ever teach me about what you are seeing. If I want to learn how to train a dog to play games....I will contact you before Chris McDonald. Fair enough?


If I decide I want to start training Airedales to hunt, I will certainly consider contacting you first, Don. However, given that's not really what I'm into, I think I'll stick to what I've been doing. It's worked out pretty well for me so far.

Regarding the prey/play/hunt drive debate ...I think at this point it's really a matter of terminology and you may have to accept that protection trainers are going to refer to a dog chasing something that moves as prey drive. Perhaps a rag, tug, stuffed toy, etc. are not technically prey by definition. I will give you that. But given we don't have a need or desire for our dogs to chase live prey, we have adapted this term and drive to suit our purpose. I think it's widely accepted and much more simplistic than saying the dog has rag, ball, tug, pipe, pvc, sleeve, bite suit drive. If a dog can be convinced that anything that moves like prey is worth showing intense interest in, that's prey drive and something we can probably work with. You clearly don't agree with the application of that term and I can understand that, given your background. What I don't understand is why you don't believe it's useful. I think that's where being open minded and taking a look at what the people are doing who use and best understand that term as it applies to protection dogs. Regardless of what we call it, it's a tool ...a way to teach a young dog to bite or play a game that will benefit us later on. At a young age, we can't work a dog in defense without creating confidence/nerve issues, so we make a game of it and allow the dog to live for the game. 

You've admitted your dogs are crazy for a rat or a squirrel, to the point of being out of control. But that is useful to you because when they are hunting, they are not easily deterred by strong, intimidating game. The same concept applies to my type of training. If I have a dog that lives for the game, that dog will perservere when it's hot, tired and perhaps at a disadvantage. The compulsion, as you call it, for the game, creates a dog that will work himself to exhaustion or death. That's the "drive" I look for. I can always dial it back, but I can't make more drive when the dog decides to quit.


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> of course not, they are only earthdog people...and they dont have Airedales'


"Only" earthdog people #-o
Now I'm crushed!:lol::lol: :wink:


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## Nicole Stark

Ariel Peldunas said:


> The compulsion, as you call it, for the game, creates a dog that will work himself to exhaustion or death. That's the "drive" I look for. I can always dial it back, but I can't make more drive when the dog decides to quit.


Ariel, I agree with all of the points made within your post. This may be where the mental disconnect is with those that fail to understand the relationship between the two. This perceived created compulsion is ultimately the expression of an active, yet highly goal interrelated, natural/genetic "drive within the dog. Some may find the application of object (prey) drive inclinations to be impractical and thus, conflicting to them due a lack of experience in relating to or having a need to explore the usefulness of object based drive. 

In previous discussions on this topic I've mentioned that this drive (essentially all defined types of drive) is a virtual genetic vessel, one that can be utilized/channeled to achieve a desired destination or in a training application, a specific goal/end result. However, "X" drive is not necessarily a term that is defined solely by what you see but rather by what is accomplished/satisfied via that drive. This is something I had to see/experience for myself to be able to fully understand it. Having seen both ends of the spectrum I have a far better appreciation for the understanding I have acquired by experiencing it first hand.


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## Chris McDonald

Don Turnipseed said:


> Chris, here is a picture showing sleep drive. If you know what you are looking at here, you can actually see the prey drive here in this pup.


Im so stupid I thought I was seeing ball and hunt drive along with sleep drive in this picture. Maybe he is possessive because he is sleeping on his food?


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## kenneth roth

looks like a little piggy :lol:


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## Timothy Saunders

Joby Becker said:


> Don, isnt that hunt drive?


that is when you get in the car with your buddies and go hunting


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## maggie fraser

kenneth roth said:


> looks like a little piggy :lol:


Lol :lol:

No-one appears to have mentioned couch drive yet, or MacDonald's drive !


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## Edward Weiss

Hunt Drive


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## Don Turnipseed

If you have a bear running for it's life and a pack of hounds behind it, what drive are all the dogs in the pack in??


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## Jackie Lockard

Don Turnipseed said:


> If you have a bear running for it's life and a pack of hounds behind it, what drive are all the dogs in the pack in??


Hard drive. :-D8)


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## julie allen

Chris my shih tzu has awesome sleep drive! If I crossbred her with a high prey drive mal, then that pup to a Dutch with super fight and great grips, I'll have Dutch malinois shits that will kick ass and fall asleep still attached to the sleeve! I'm accepting deposits


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> If you have a bear running for it's life and a pack of hounds behind it, what drive are all the dogs in the pack in??


If the bear is running and the dogs are chasing it I would call it prey drive. Now if the bear decides to turn around and fight it can turn into something else. I'd love to hear what you call it Don.


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> If you have a bear running for it's life and a pack of hounds behind it, what drive are all the dogs in the pack in??


 
play right?


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## Edward Weiss

Hmmmm prey drive?


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## Sara Waters

mike suttle said:


> If the bear is running and the dogs are chasing it I would call it prey drive. Now if the bear decides to turn around and fight it can turn into something else. I'd love to hear what you call it Don.


Yes, 2 different things entirely. It is one thing to chase, an entirely different thing when the prey turns to fight as I discovered once with my lot when they put up a large male roo on my property. That sorts them all out and separates them in to those that will kill or be killed and those that will circle outside the danger zone.

Not something I have any desire to experience again. One of my dogs didnt surprise me while another was a total surprise. The dog I would have thought least likely to engage was a machine.


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## Edward Weiss

Last one...... Mole drive


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## Bob Scott

Ed, with your Dales I would call it versatile drive! They hunt AND do sport! :wink:


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## Jackie Lockard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73henmm-30M&feature=related

What's this called?


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## Bob Scott

Jackie Lockard said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73henmm-30M&feature=related
> 
> What's this called?



A missed kill? :twisted: ;-)


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## Edward Weiss

Bob Scott said:


> Ed, with your Dales I would call it versatile drive! They hunt AND do sport! :wink:


Thanks Bob. When I started messing around with these German sport/working lines I was pretty sure they would be fine for VPG but I learned a lot about cross over drives.
They will try to find anything with feathers or fur as well as be ball and frisby addicts. The later quality made most training easy.
My old man has an FH1 and it really only took me a couple of weeks to tune him up. 

A major problem in cross training hunt and sport is air scenting(a no no in VPG) and a must in bird work.

One last terrier insight great praise response correction not so much.


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## Don Turnipseed

mike suttle said:


> If the bear is running and the dogs are chasing it I would call it prey drive. Now if the bear decides to turn around and fight it can turn into something else. I'd love to hear what you call it Don.


Hard to believe with this group that only one person will through out an opinion to an obvious scenario. Seems most are not really so sure of the differences between hunt and prey unless it involves balls and rags. Mikie, since this is prey drive to you....why? Why isn't it hunt drive?


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Hard to believe with this group that only one person will through out an opinion to an obvious scenario. Seems most are not really so sure of the differences between hunt and prey unless it involves balls and rags. Mikie, since this is prey drive to you....why? Why isn't it hunt drive?


ummmm, because they are not hunting at this point, they have already hunted for and found the odor and now they have begun to chase and that is prey drive. Hunt drive is what they show you when you kick them out of the truck and let them hunt for a scent of the game you are about to chase.
In the scenario you posted I assumed they were chasing an animal that they had a visual on, making it prey drive to me and about eveyone else on this forum.


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## Jackie Lockard

mike suttle said:


> ummmm, because they are not hunting at this point, they have already hunted for and found the odor and now they have begun to chase and that is prey drive. Hunt drive is what they show you when you kick them out of the truck and let them hunt for a scent of the game you are about to chase.
> In the scenario you posted I assumed they were chasing an animal that they had a visual on, making it prey drive to me and about eveyone else on this forum.





Don Turnipseed said:


> Hard to believe with this group that only one person will through out an opinion to an obvious scenario. Seems most are not really so sure of the differences between hunt and prey unless it involves balls and rags. Mikie, since this is prey drive to you....why? Why isn't it hunt drive?


Which begs the question - why isn't it prey drive when pups are chasing a dead squirrel they already have a visual on? What's so special about being tied back that makes it not prey drive?

But it's hard to believe that you'll answer a question instead of throwing out more petty insults. :-({|=


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Hard to believe with this group that only one person will through out an opinion to an obvious scenario. Seems most are not really so sure of the differences between hunt and prey unless it involves balls and rags.
> 
> 
> 
> Because although I am sure most will believe it to be prey drive, you're certain to disagree. It seems you probably believe it's hunt drive, but, as Mike said, if the dogs are no longer searching for/tracking the bear and have closed in on it and begun chase, I don't see how it could be anything but prey drive at that point. Of course, I'm sure you'll explain why it couldn't possibly be that.
Click to expand...


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## Chris McDonald

All I know is you guys got way to many of these things you call drives. Is there such thing of a dog that doesn’t really have high the intensity in these “drives” you guys like, but is willing to do what is asked of it by it handler for long periods of time? Or is this to Disney? Not busting just asking


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## Don Turnipseed

mike suttle said:


> ummmm, *because they are not hunting at this point, they have already hunted for and found the odor and now they have begun to chase and that is prey drive.* Hunt drive is what they show you when you kick them out of the truck and let them hunt for a scent of the game you are about to chase.
> In the scenario you posted *I assumed they were chasing an animal that they had a visual on, making it prey drive* to me and about eveyone else on this forum.


What??? Now we are working on scent or a visual for prey drive? Seems like working scent would be hunting...... So is there difference between "hunt drive" and "prey drive?".


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## Sara Waters

Chris McDonald said:


> All I know is you guys got way to many of these things you call drives. Is there such thing of a dog that doesn’t really have high the intensity in these “drives” you guys like, but is willing to do what is asked of it by it handler for long periods of time? Or is this to Disney? Not busting just asking


In herding yes. A dog that is calm and has a natural stop in which it assesses is good. The desire to work is often just as strong in these dogs and they are less of a pain in the arse and dont get the sheep all riled up. The super high drive, busy sheepdogs often find themselves looking for an agility home rather than a herding home.


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## Jackie Lockard

Don Turnipseed said:


> What??? Now we are working on scent or a visual for prey drive? Seems like working scent would be hunting...... So is there difference between "hunt drive" and "prey drive?".


Did you actually comprehend what Mike said in the parts you bolded or do you merely enjoy looking like a fool?


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## Don Turnipseed

Jackie Lockard said:


> Did you actually comprehend what Mike said in the parts you bolded or do you merely enjoy looking like a fool?


It was plain English Jackie. Obviously you didn't understand what Mike said. He has it covered both ways.

By the way, I was going to post to you specifically, that it was a good time for another of your inconsequential posts that pertain to nothing but you obviously beat me to it.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> What??? Now we are working on scent or a visual for prey drive? Seems like working scent would be hunting...... So is there difference between "hunt drive" and "prey drive?".


It's gotten to the point that I can't even follow your logic. First, you said prey drive had nothing to do with the visual and described and provided pictures to illustrate your opinion that prey drive is actually demonstrated by dogs searching for (working scent of) the prey (which I believe the rest of us refer to as hunt drive). Now you're saying that working scent is hunting. 

In my opinion, working scent is hunt drive and responding to a visual stimulus by showing intense interest/giving chase/biting/catching is prey drive. Perhaps it depends on what definition of hunt you use.

From Dictionary.com:

*hunt*


verb (used with object) 1. to chase or search for (game or other wild animals) for the purpose of catching or killing. 
2. to pursue with force, hostility, etc., in order to capture (often followed by down ): They hunted him down and hanged him. 
3. to search for; seek; endeavor to obtain or find (often followed by up or out ): to hunt up the most promising candidates for the position. 
4. to search (a place) thoroughly. 
5. to scour (an area) in pursuit of game. 
6. to use or direct (a horse, hound, etc.) in chasing game. 7. Change Ringing . to alter the place of (a bell) in a hunt. 



verb (used without object) 8. to engage in the pursuit, capture, or killing of wild animals for food or in sport. 
9. to make a search or quest (often followed by for or after ). 
10. Change Ringing . to alter the place of a bell in its set according to certain rules.



According to this definition, "hunt" can mean to search for or pursue. Maybe we should establish which definition applies to our purposes. As I mentioned above, I use hunt to mean search. Maybe we should call it search drive or working scent drive to clarify in future discussions but it seems most people understand the difference between hunt and prey drive. Maybe coming from a strictly hunting background, you incorporate any part the dogs play in the hunt as being motivated by hunt drive, but now I'm not sure what you consider to be prey drive because you seem to be contradicting yourself. Like I said, I am having trouble following your logic and understanding what argument you are trying to make. Maybe you can clarify so we can understand what you mean.


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## leslie cassian

_Of course, I'm sure you'll explain why it couldn't possibly be that._

No, Don will just tell us we are all wrong and don't know nearly as much about dogs as he does and point out how his dogs are so much better than our dogs. He will not talk about training, except to shoot down or dismiss what others on the board do, and then post videos of puppies on pillows.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Maybe our resident hunting dog expert can tell us if this is "real" prey drive ...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpm3xqeyZeI


Don't get squirrley on us, seems you started this thread Ariel? I have been told countless times how pups playing with rags and towels depicts prey drive. Tyhenh you switched and agreed that the video you put up was merely puos playing.

You feel safer if you say, "I am sure everyone on this board would agree the scenario I put up depicts prey drive" but you "just have a feeling" I am going to tell you why it is "hunt drive". Well, just about everyone on this board has told me that hunt is search for the unseen, and prey is chase on a visual. Maybe you noticed that no one outside of Mike would venture an answer to a supposedly simple question....and he covered himself both ways. Don't give me a dictionary definition now. Tell me what "everyone on this board see as hunt and prey". Once again, this is Ariels thread, not mine.


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## Jackie Lockard

"...because they are not hunting at this point, they have already hunted for and found the odor and *now they have begun to chase and that is prey drive*. _Hunt drive is what they show you when you kick them out of the truck and let them hunt for a scent of the game you are about to chase._
In the scenario you posted I assumed *they were chasing an animal that they had a visual on, making it prey drive* to me and about eveyone else on this forum."


Yup. Plain English.

I'd settle for just an explanation of why his dogs are better. Or any explanation of anything really. I'm particularly interested in the thought process behind all this.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Chris McDonald said:


> All I know is you guys got way to many of these things you call drives. Is there such thing of a dog that doesn’t really have high the intensity in these “drives” you guys like, but is willing to do what is asked of it by it handler for long periods of time? Or is this to Disney? Not busting just asking


You and I have been through this before, many times. You just don't like my answer? 8)

Yes, there are some dogs that will work for a long time because the handler wants them to. But they don't look the same working as a dog that has really intense prey and hunt drive, and a dog that will be rewarded with more than a pat on the head (at least sometimes). I also do not believe that they will work as long and independently in difficult conditions, IN ABSENCE OF SCENT (air scenting).

There are at least some searching profiles where time does matter, for these, I think intensity does matter.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don, I think everyone here is clear as to the difference between hunt and prey drive besides you. I don't know how much more clear we can make it.
> 
> Hunt=search
> Prey=chase/catch/kill
> 
> So you are saying if my dog watches the person we are going to track walk away the dog is working in “Prey” drive on that track? But if I get out of my truck and just ask my dog to pick up and track a human scent or if I let him check a scent article of the person I want to find he is working in “Hunt” drive?
> Do you not think the dog knows its tracking and looking for a person in both cases? Or do you think the dog only thinks its looking for a person if the dog sees it walk away?
> 
> Do you see how I could think this is a bit silly or am I just that stupid? … don’t worry you wont insult me.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don, I think everyone here is clear as to the difference between hunt and prey drive besides you. I don't know how much more clear we can make it.
> 
> Hunt=search
> Prey=chase/catch/kill
> 
> So you are saying if my dog watches the person we are going to track walk away the dog is working in “Prey” drive on that track? But if I get out of my truck and just ask my dog to pick up and track a human scent or if I let him check a scent article of the person I want to find he is working in “Hunt” drive?
> Do you not think the dog knows its tracking and looking for a person in both cases? Or do you think the dog only thinks its looking for a person if the dog sees it walk away?
> 
> Do you see how I could think this is a bit silly or am I just that stupid? … don’t worry you wont insult me.
> 
> 
> 
> There are dogs that would do fine on the searches were they see a person run away, but would not do well on a cold search without being activated by the person run away. Now this could be a problem in training, not progressing well, or it could be a dog that has high prey drive, but not so much hunt drive.
> 
> It may look like a rockstar if it saw the person leave, but if it has to work hard for it, it may loose interest, get distracted, think a squirrel running by is more interesting and so on.
> 
> In the air scenting profile I have seen dogs that look like rockstars if they are in prey drive...see the person leaving to hide, but once the person is out of sight, or if they have to start cold (no cues other than "search") the dog is not really that into it.
Click to expand...


----------



## julie allen

I take my dog out to a fifty acre field. Give the command to check. She begins hunting. No scent or sight of anything. She searches back and forth. This is hunt drive. She is hunting for a source that brings a reward. In this case human remains.


----------



## Kelly Godwin

mike suttle said:


> She posted a video of two pups playing with a dead squirrel, one pup, the GSD is hers, paid for 100% by her.


I was wondering if that GSD was one of the pups we saw when we were there. Looks like he is coming along very nicely! Be careful buddy, he'll make you rethink your stance on GSDs!

Has he earned a name yet or do they still have the nicknames? hahahha


----------



## Jackie Lockard

Chris McDonald said:


> Or do you think the dog only thinks its looking for a person if the dog sees it walk away?


I'm confused at this. Do you think that "we" think the dog would be in prey drive at this point? Or are you thinking that "we" think a dog can only have "prey drive" OR "hunt drive"? If it's the first then are you referencing dual purpose K9s or Schutzhund dogs being able to track *and* bite???

I'm trying to figure out how stupid you think "we" are or if it's a legit question...if I'm reading it correctly it has already been answered by at least two people on this thread alone, in plain English. By one person in six words or less.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are dogs that would do fine on the searches were they see a person run away, but would not do well on a cold search without being activated by the person run away. Now this could be a problem in training, not progressing well, or it could be a dog that has high prey drive, but not so much hunt drive.
> 
> It may look like a rockstar if it saw the person leave, but if it has to work hard for it, it may loose interest, get distracted, think a squirrel running by is more interesting and so on.
> 
> In the air scenting profile I have seen dogs that look like rockstars if they are in prey drive...see the person leaving to hide, but once the person is out of sight, or if they have to start cold (no cues other than "search") the dog is not really that into it.
> 
> 
> 
> To me the dog that doesn’t search whether seeing the person leave or not just doesn’t have “it”. what makes this extra confusing to me is I have seen dogs that I don’t think would do very well with any of the tests some people give or most would not be impressed with the dogs ball or flirt pole performance but are great working dogs that search or track.
Click to expand...


----------



## mike suttle

Kelly Godwin said:


> I was wondering if that GSD was one of the pups we saw when we were there. Looks like he is coming along very nicely! Be careful buddy, he'll make you rethink your stance on GSDs!
> 
> Has he earned a name yet or do they still have the nicknames? hahahha


That was Du-mass in the video, his brother Shi-thead is also coming along well.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Coulter said:


> You and I have been through this before, many times. You just don't like my answer? 8)
> 
> Yes, there are some dogs that will work for a long time because the handler wants them to. But they don't look the same working as a dog that has really intense prey and hunt drive, and a dog that will be rewarded with more than a pat on the head (at least sometimes). I also do not believe that they will work as long and independently in difficult conditions, IN ABSENCE OF SCENT (air scenting).
> 
> There are at least some searching profiles where time does matter, for these, I think intensity does matter.


See im not so sure about this. Granted I don’t have 20 years of knowledge in this and have a lot to learn but one way to look at what your saying is a high intensity spun up dog has a nose that works better than a calmer looking dog? I don’t really buy that the spasy spun up Mali will find a target 2 miles in the woods or 5 feet under snow faster than a calmer dog never spun up on a rag or ball. It may look like its faster, but to me its really just wasting valuable energy rather than pacing itself to work long, long hours? JMO


----------



## Nicole Stark

Chris McDonald said:


> what makes this extra confusing to me is I have seen dogs that I don’t think would do very well with any of the tests some people give or most would not be impressed with the dogs ball or flirt pole performance but are great working dogs that search or track. [/FONT][/SIZE]



What is confusing about this to you? I mean, what aspects of that do you find confusing? My mastiff probably fits that description. No object drive, highly scent oriented, and a good tracker. She works in an informal detection capacity pretty well too but her duration and commitment for tracks is more pronounced.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Jackie Lockard said:


> I'm confused at this. Do you think that "we" think the dog would be in prey drive at this point? Or are you thinking that "we" think a dog can only have "prey drive" OR "hunt drive"? If it's the first then are you referencing dual purpose K9s or Schutzhund dogs being able to track *and* bite???
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how stupid you think "we" are or if it's a legit question...if I'm reading it correctly it has already been answered by at least two people on this thread alone, in plain English. By one person in six words or less.


Yes your right you are confused and I don’t know how stupid “we” are. How stupid do you think “we” are? …. You wont insult me. And where is the six word answer I only read the last page or two


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don, I think everyone here is clear as to the difference between hunt and prey drive besides you. I don't know how much more clear we can make it.
> 
> Hunt=search
> Prey=chase/catch/kill
> 
> So you are saying if my dog watches the person we are going to track walk away the dog is working in “Prey” drive on that track? But if I get out of my truck and just ask my dog to pick up and track a human scent or if I let him check a scent article of the person I want to find he is working in “Hunt” drive?
> Do you not think the dog knows its tracking and looking for a person in both cases? Or do you think the dog only thinks its looking for a person if the dog sees it walk away?
> 
> Do you see how I could think this is a bit silly or am I just that stupid? … don’t worry you wont insult me.
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion is the person walking away should activate a dog's prey drive given it has learned the tracking game this way. Once the person is hidden, the dog would be using hunt drive to search for/track the person. I would hope in both instances, the dog understands it is looking for a person. I think this would be achieved through training.
Click to expand...


----------



## Chad Sloan

Do you guys find it useful to devise different means of providing satisfaction to a biological imperative and/or frustrating attempts to complete it depending on the type of stimulus present, be it visual, olfactory, aural, tactile etc.?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion is the person walking away should activate a dog's prey drive given it has learned the tracking game this way. Once the person is hidden, the dog would be using hunt drive to search for/track the person. I would hope in both instances, the dog understands it is looking for a person. I think this would be achieved through training.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So as the dog watches the person walk away the dog is in Prey drive but once out of sight the dog is in Hunt drive. Ok got it
Click to expand...


----------



## Chris McDonald

Chad Sloan said:


> Do you guys find it useful to devise different means of providing satisfaction to a biological imperative and/or frustrating attempts to complete it depending on the type of stimulus present, be it visual, olfactory, aural, tactile etc.?


What a douche bag


----------



## Chad Sloan

I'd rather be one than need one.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Chris McDonald said:


> Jennifer Coulter said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me the dog that doesn’t search whether seeing the person leave or not just doesn’t have “it”. what makes this extra confusing to me is I have seen dogs that I don’t think would do very well with any of the tests some people give or most would not be impressed with the dogs ball or flirt pole performance but are great working dogs that search or track.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> See im not so sure about this. Granted I don’t have 20 years of knowledge in this and have a lot to learn but one way to look at what your saying is a high intensity spun up dog has a nose that works better than a calmer looking dog? I don’t really buy that the spasy spun up Mali will find a target 2 miles in the woods or 5 feet under snow faster than a calmer dog never spun up on a rag or ball. It may look like its faster, but to me its really just wasting valuable energy rather than pacing itself to work long, long hours? JMO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Regarding tracking/trailing, I think some dogs that have a lot of prey drive but not much hunt drive may fall short once the person is hidden. I have found with high prey Malinois, sometimes it's best not to active their prey drive much, if at all, to train them for trailing. Often, they are so overwhelmed with drive, they become frantic and rely on their eyes rather than focusing on scent. I actually tend to agree with you, Chris, that a dog that doesn't get spun up can make a better tracker, given they have an instinctive predisposition to track.
> On the other hand, I think a calmer dog that doesn't get as easily spun up can be less reliable for tasks that they are not inclined to do instinctively. When training a detection dog, the dog must associate the odor with a tangible reward (unless you force train detection and then I cannot comment because I do not train that way). If the dog has so-so drive for the reward, I just don't think you get the same end product as a dog with more intensity. While you may get a dog that works well for a while, I think the intense, over-the-top dog will out perform a calmer dog.
> My own malinois does not have extreme prey drive. For a decoy, she is very intense, but for a ball, tug, etc. she is about average. She is, however, a very good trailing dog (I don't call it tracking because she wasn't trained in FST). Trailing was something that she was just naturally good at. I actually created some training issues by doing run-aways and giving her a visual stimulus. Now, I try to keep her as calm as possible. She enjoys the reward at the end, but I truly believe she enjoys the search just as much.
> This same dog is trained in cadaver detection. While she is a very proficient detection dog, she lacks the intensity I prefer. After working her for a number of years and spending 11 months working her overseas, I realize having a dog with average drive is a detriment. It was often difficult to motivate her during long searches in the heat of the desert. After searching for hours in 100+ degree temperatures, she really didn't care enough about her reward to keep searching. Sure, she searches a bit more productively than some of the more intense dogs I have seen and she conserves her energy better, but I would prefer a dog that doesn't quit. I may have never come to this conclusion had I done the typical searches we were used to. But now, I realize I would rather have too much drive and not need it than not have enough.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Regarding tracking/trailing, I think some dogs that have a lot of prey drive but not much hunt drive may fall short once the person is hidden. I have found with high prey Malinois, sometimes it's best not to active their prey drive much, if at all, to train them for trailing. Often, they are so overwhelmed with drive, they become frantic and rely on their eyes rather than focusing on scent. I actually tend to agree with you, Chris, that a dog that doesn't get spun up can make a better tracker, given they have an instinctive predisposition to track.
> On the other hand, I think a calmer dog that doesn't get as easily spun up can be less reliable for tasks that they are not inclined to do instinctively. When training a detection dog, the dog must associate the odor with a tangible reward (unless you force train detection and then I cannot comment because I do not train that way). If the dog has so-so drive for the reward, I just don't think you get the same end product as a dog with more intensity. While you may get a dog that works well for a while, I think the intense, over-the-top dog will out perform a calmer dog.
> My own malinois does not have extreme prey drive. For a decoy, she is very intense, but for a ball, tug, etc. she is about average. She is, however, a very good trailing dog (I don't call it tracking because she wasn't trained in FST). Trailing was something that she was just naturally good at. I actually created some training issues by doing run-aways and giving her a visual stimulus. Now, I try to keep her as calm as possible. She enjoys the reward at the end, but I truly believe she enjoys the search just as much.
> This same dog is trained in cadaver detection. While she is a very proficient detection dog, she lacks the intensity I prefer. After working her for a number of years and spending 11 months working her overseas, I realize having a dog with average drive is a detriment. It was often difficult to motivate her during long searches in the heat of the desert. After searching for hours in 100+ degree temperatures, she really didn't care enough about her reward to keep searching. Sure, she searches a bit more productively than some of the more intense dogs I have seen and she conserves her energy better, but I would prefer a dog that doesn't quit. I may have never come to this conclusion had I done the typical searches we were used to. But now, I realize I would rather have too much drive and not need it than not have enough.


Nice post!

But for the record I did not say the part that is in quotes with my name on it.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Nice post!
> 
> But for the record I did not say the part that is in quotes with my name on it.


I know. I noticed that after I posted it. Not sure why it did that.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> 
> So as the dog watches the person walk away the dog is in Prey drive but once out of sight the dog is in Hunt drive. Ok got it
> 
> 
> 
> That is about the size of it Chris!!!! LMFAO
Click to expand...


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is about the size of it Chris!!!! LMFAO
> 
> 
> 
> That quote showed up as originally posted by me as well although it was actually Chris' quote. Regardless, if you had actually trained a dog to do any of the things you comment on, perhaps you would understand, Don. Chris may not understand drive, agree or find it useful, but at least he actually has dogs that do the things he comments on.
> 
> When training area search or man-trailing dogs, often the first step in training is to allow the dog to watch a person with a toy or sleeve or bite suit run away in order to incite prey drive. As training progresses, the amount of stimulation is reduced and instead of teasing the dog with the toy and running away, the person walks away. It still activates prey drive, but to a lesser extent. But, I wouldn't expect you to know or understand this because it's not something you train for on a regular basis.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bob Scott

Edward Weiss said:


> Thanks Bob. When I started messing around with these German sport/working lines I was pretty sure they would be fine for VPG but I learned a lot about cross over drives.
> They will try to find anything with feathers or fur as well as be ball and frisby addicts. The later quality made most training easy.
> My old man has an FH1 and it really only took me a couple of weeks to tune him up.
> 
> A major problem in cross training hunt and sport is air scenting(a no no in VPG) and a must in bird work.
> 
> One last terrier insight great praise response correction not so much.



I had a couple of Kerrys in the 80s. I shot quail over the male. He hated feathers so always retrieved with a soft mouth. He was......less then soft mouthed on ****, possum, etc :lol:. 
Also Nationally ranked in AKC OB.

I ran into the "cross training" issue with one of my GSDs. He was trained in SAR first. Air scent, trailing, article alert, etc. When we started his Schutzhund career we had a bit of a time getting him to go deep nose on the sport track. He would pick up the article scent on another leg and just take off to it. His alert was nice though! :grin:


----------



## Chad Sloan

mike suttle said:


> That was Du-mass in the video, his brother Shi-thead is also coming along well.


You ever have difficulty keeping it straight which one has their head up the other's butt?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Chris may not understand drives??? Wasn't it you that agreed that your video showed nothing more than pups playing.....now you say it is prey drive. You said the dogs chasing the bear was prey drive and everyone on WDF would agree, now you switched 180 degrees, even though the dogs were doing the same exact thing, to they are in hunt drive and everyone will agree. Make up your mind Ariel. You said initially that I would disagree with your(Mikes) conclusion that they were in prey drive and I would try to convince you they were in hunt drive. Darlin, I am the guy that keeps telling you that there is no special hunt drive.....it is all part of prey. At this point, everyone on the WDF has no idea what they are supposed to be agreeing with you on. The one thing at least we both agree on is Jackie Lockard made absolutely no sense to either of us.


----------



## Jackie Lockard

Don Turnipseed said:


> Chris may not understand drives??? Wasn't it you that agreed that your video showed nothing more than pups playing.....now you say it is prey drive. You said the dogs chasing the bear was prey drive and everyone on WDF would agree, now you switched 180 degrees, even though the dogs were doing the same exact thing, to they are in hunt drive and everyone will agree. Make up your mind Ariel. You said initially that I would disagree with your(Mikes) conclusion that they were in prey drive and I would try to convince you they were in hunt drive. Darlin, I am the guy that keeps telling you that there is no special hunt drive.....it is all part of prey. At this point, everyone on the WDF has no idea what they are supposed to be agreeing with you on. The one thing at least we both agree on is Jackie Lockard made absolutely no sense to either of us.



So according to you there is no hunt drive? Or if there's only non-special hunt drive what is normal hunt drive? The only one who has changed their opinions (or scenarios) on any of this has been you, Don. Thanks for the honorable mention; how about answering a single question?


----------



## Nicole Stark

Nicole Stark said:


> It probably doesn't matter but I think the pursuit, of active an scent in the way it's described above is actually a transitional phase between the two drives. The only way I could put it into words would be to say the difference is more primal and seems to encompass more than just a singular drive.





Jackie Lockard said:


> So according to you there is no hunt drive? Or if there's only non-special hunt drive what is normal hunt drive? The only one who has changed their opinions (or scenarios) on any of this has been you, Don. Thanks for the honorable mention; how about answering a single question?


Jackie, assuming that Don is loosely referring to the predatory sequence, technically he is correct. I'm sure you, like everyone else who has participated in this discussion can recall that this has been stated previously so I'm only bringing this up as a frame of reference for what I am responding to. Which is, that the entire predatory (prey) sequence involves searching, stalking, chasing, catching, biting, killing and then eating. This is why in my earlier response I mentioned that the scenario as described was likely a combination of "drives". If more accurately stated, I would and should have referenced the specific pieces of the predatory sequence that I was referring to.

Note - my original response was different from what I inserted above. I truncated it to apply relevance to the follow up response above.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Nicole Stark said:


> that the entire predatory (prey) sequence involves searching, stalking, chasing, catching, biting, killing and then eating. This is why in my earlier response I mentioned that the scenario as described was likely a combination of "drives".


Bless you. This is what my response was all about as well. If you work in the animal world, you don't separate the two---they are inclusive. If I send my stock dog on a blind outrun [can't see the stock], if he has hunt drive, he uses his nose to find them. If he doesn't, he stands there and looks at me. The hunt drive dog will use his nose to locate them. Once in sight, he will cast for the gather and do what's necessary to get them to me. Part of the sequence includes terms like "block" and "gather." Bite work people are concerned with only parts of the chain so it tends to be out of context and there seems to be this desperate need to always say WHICH drive the dog is in. You are adapting something from the land of "real" to something artificial. For a hunter, I could see that whether the dog will actually pick up a scent and hunt for his food defines whether he has any drive at all. First you have to have a strong desire to locate it. If you don't, its a done deal. Now, once located, does that necessarily mean that the strong hunt dog will have strong enough chase, catch or otherwise hold? I do know that along this sequence, some traits can be selectively bred for and exaggerated as single traits. 

I too was trying to figure out how the person walking away should trigger prey but once Ariel added that the person had the toy and the dog knew it, it made sense. 

I think you have to stick to your own venue. I don't need spun up drive for what I do and how I train. My dogs work off instinct and their ability to read a situation. I do think you can get the same with dogs that work off scenting but that's just a hunch of mine. What Mike, Ariel and SAR people need can be altogether different and you really can't comment about what they need unless you have done it. 


T


----------



## Joby Becker

can be a simple as you want it to be..

dog tracks or it doesnt

dog HUNTS (game) or it doesnt 

dog is good for detection or it isnt

dog is good for bitework or it isnt

dog is good for OB or isnt

dog is good for one, two, three, or 4 of the above...

But,,,

If you are looking for dogs that are suitable for any of the above tasks you select the best you can..

IT DOES HELP to use the commonly accepted terminology when discussing traits with others in regards to that selection...It does no good to defy all terminology, when working with others in selection of dogs for certain tasks... probably 99% of dog trainers that train dogs to do things use the common terms of hunt and prey...end of story..


----------



## Nicole Stark

I won't speak for any of the hunters here but it appears to me that starting from a training vantage point is easier (though not less convoluted) to transfer that knowledge over to a hunting application as opposed to working from the perspective of basically raw genetic potential and a relatively complete set of predatory behaviors.

Trying to make sense of what you see in dogs that only have partially complete predatory sequences may be a cumbersome process. The training background offers a dissection of compartmentalized behaviors (drives) for relatively manufactured activities/applications. This affords one the ability to isolate certain behaviors and channel such to achieve specific goals. To a hunter, who basically has all of the tools needed already in the dog most of this would appear entirely unnecessary. In a training application the training objects enable the trainer to connect the dots between what is natural vs what is unnatural.

I liken this to being a little like relating to people who aren't wired right, nothing they do really makes sense unless you understand a bit about psychology.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bless you. This is what my response was all about as well. If you work in the animal world, you don't separate the two---they are inclusive. If I send my stock dog on a blind outrun [can't see the stock], if he has hunt drive, he uses his nose to find them. If he doesn't, he stands there and looks at me. The hunt drive dog will use his nose to locate them. Once in sight, he will cast for the gather and do what's necessary to get them to me. Part of the sequence includes terms like "block" and "gather." Bite work people are concerned with only parts of the chain so it tends to be out of context and there seems to be this desperate need to always say WHICH drive the dog is in. You are adapting something from the land of "real" to something artificial. For a hunter, I could see that whether the dog will actually pick up a scent and hunt for his food defines whether he has any drive at all. First you have to have a strong desire to locate it. If you don't, its a done deal. Now, once located, does that necessarily mean that the strong hunt dog will have strong enough chase, catch or otherwise hold? I do know that along this sequence, some traits can be selectively bred for and exaggerated as single traits.
> 
> I too was trying to figure out how the person walking away should trigger prey but once Ariel added that the person had the toy and the dog knew it, it made sense.
> 
> I think you have to stick to your own venue. I don't need spun up drive for what I do and how I train. My dogs work off instinct and their ability to read a situation. I do think you can get the same with dogs that work off scenting but that's just a hunch of mine. What Mike, Ariel and SAR people need can be altogether different and you really can't comment about what they need unless you have done it.
> 
> 
> T





Nicole Stark said:


> I won't speak for any of the hunters here but it appears to me that starting from a training vantage point is easier (though not less convoluted) to transfer that knowledge over to a hunting application as opposed to working from the perspective of basically raw genetic potential and a relatively complete set of predatory behaviors.
> 
> Trying to make sense of what you see in dogs that only have partially complete predatory sequences may be a cumbersome process. The training background offers a dissection of compartmentalized behaviors (drives) for relatively manufactured activities/applications. This affords one the ability to isolate certain behaviors and channel such to achieve specific goals. To a hunter, who basically has all of the tools needed already in the dog most of this would appear entirely unnecessary. In a training application the training objects enable the trainer to connect the dots between what is natural vs what is unnatural.
> 
> I liken this to being a little like relating to people who aren't wired right, nothing they do really makes sense unless you understand a bit about psychology.


Well put, Nicole and Terrasita. I had been trying to convey the same things but I tend to be a bit long winded in my posts and it seems a lot gets lost in translation. I think you both expressed very clearly why it's hard for people who don't train the tasks I'm talking about to understand why things things I look for are important. You select the dog that suits the task at hand and, to do so, you evaluate for drives and traits that indicate the dog's potential.


----------



## Chad Sloan

Would it be reasonable to conclude then that you work primarily in prey?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Well put, Nicole and Terrasita. I had been trying to convey the same things but I tend to be a bit long winded in my posts and it seems a lot gets lost in translation. I think you both expressed very clearly why it's hard for people who don't train the tasks I'm talking about to understand why things things I look for are important. You select the dog that suits the task at hand and, to do so, you evaluate for drives and traits that indicate the dog's potential.


Well, I actually understand what you mean and why you may feel more comfy relying on the type of drives you do for the work you train for. I actually feel the balanced GSD should be able to do it all---stock, scent, high object drive for training bite work and durational searches, etc. But I've also spent some time participating in and observing bite work and now I have this new interest in scent work. Soooo, its not foreign to me.

Sooo, what's the pedigree on the GSDs and what are they in training for? 

Terrasita


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Chad Sloan said:


> Would it be reasonable to conclude then that you work primarily in prey?


Who?

T


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, I actually understand what you mean and why you may feel more comfy relying on the type of drives you do for the work you train for. I actually feel the balanced GSD should be able to do it all---stock, scent, high object drive for training bite work and durational searches, etc. But I've also spent some time participating in and observing bite work and now I have this new interest in scent work. Soooo, its not foreign to me.
> 
> Sooo, what's the pedigree on the GSDs and what are they in training for?
> 
> Terrasita


Sire: Yogi von der Schiffslache

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=475339

Dam: Coca van het Burgerbosch Oase

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=624596

I'm planning on doing Schutzhund with one of the GSDs. I wanted to learn a new sport and wasn't really interested in any of the ring sports right now. I'm also detection training them because I really enjoy scent work and it gives them something else to do. I will probably raise the one I'm not going to keep to sell when he's older, but we'll see.


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## Nicole Stark

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Well put, Nicole and Terrasita. I had been trying to convey the same things but I tend to be a bit long winded in my posts and it seems a lot gets lost in translation. I think you both expressed very clearly why it's hard for people who don't train the tasks I'm talking about to understand why things things I look for are important. You select the dog that suits the task at hand and, to do so, you evaluate for drives and traits that indicate the dog's potential.


I think it's a bit like learning a language piecemeal vs immersing yourself in the culture and learning it that way. The experience that goes along with the education creates a bit of a "feel" that simply cannot be replicated within this platform. People who have been there and done that relate rather easily to the statements you have made. 

Frankly, I think it speaks well of your desire to share your knowledge and experiences. Especially considering you've extended, rather generously I might add, considerable time to try and get this to gel with someone who has an entirely different and unrelated background. Diversity is key here, it has the capacity to change perspectives in seemingly magical ways.


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