# Eye opener today



## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

My 7 month old male very suddenly (about a month ago now?) started barking and acting like a maniac when I took him out anywhere. It was a few days before he was to start his first class. Well... ends up he can't be in class because he won't behave. So today we went to another trainer for an evaluation on how to fix the problem. Long story short, he's an alpha who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way. He's a spoiled brat. He's frustrated and confused, I guess, over what I want. When held by the collar and petted on his side by the trainer, he threatened to bite her and took a couple swipes. Later when we were talking, he just stared at her... challenging her. When he was younger, he didn't like to be held, so I didn't hold him. He didn't like to be petted unless he wanted to be petted...so I didn't pet him unless he wanted to be. He's a good dog.... until you do something he doesn't want you to do. The trainer wants me to get a basket muzzle. She wants me to be able to have him lay on his side and me pet him like that.....without him being able to get up. This is supposed to be calming to him? When he was younger, I could push him on his side and rub his belly. I was the ONLY one who could, but he'd let me. I tried this today when we were there, and he would not. I showed my wife when we got home what had made him so mad at the trainer. He started whining and grumbling at me, too. 
So this guy just went through some major changes, and now more than ever thinks he's in charge. Now I have to do all the things he doesn't want me to do. This is going to put him in a bad mood, I think. He's still in a foul mood from earlier. I don't want to fight with my dog. I just want him to settle down and LISTEN. This is going to be a hard road, I think, and I'm feeling a little discouraged. I'm willing to do whatever it takes, though. I think I created this mess... at least in part. :x


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jag Scott said:


> My 7 month old male very suddenly (about a month ago now?) started barking and acting like a maniac when I took him out anywhere. It was a few days before he was to start his first class. Well... ends up he can't be in class because he won't behave. So today we went to another trainer for an evaluation on how to fix the problem. Long story short, he's an alpha who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way. He's a spoiled brat. He's frustrated and confused, I guess, over what I want. When held by the collar and petted on his side by the trainer, he threatened to bite her and took a couple swipes. Later when we were talking, he just stared at her... challenging her. When he was younger, he didn't like to be held, so I didn't hold him. He didn't like to be petted unless he wanted to be petted...so I didn't pet him unless he wanted to be. He's a good dog.... until you do something he doesn't want you to do. The trainer wants me to get a basket muzzle. She wants me to be able to have him lay on his side and me pet him like that.....without him being able to get up. This is supposed to be calming to him? When he was younger, I could push him on his side and rub his belly. I was the ONLY one who could, but he'd let me. I tried this today when we were there, and he would not. I showed my wife when we got home what had made him so mad at the trainer. He started whining and grumbling at me, too.
> So this guy just went through some major changes, and now more than ever thinks he's in charge. Now I have to do all the things he doesn't want me to do. This is going to put him in a bad mood, I think. He's still in a foul mood from earlier. I don't want to fight with my dog. I just want him to settle down and LISTEN. This is going to be a hard road, I think, and I'm feeling a little discouraged. I'm willing to do whatever it takes, though. I think I created this mess... at least in part. :x


FInd a GOOD trainer or get rid of the dog. Now. this is just advice. Take it or leave it.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Can you tell me what's wrong with this trainer, please?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

That is some of the dumbest shit you could do. That is not training, just old school antiquated dominance bs. Get with a real trainer before you get yourself or someone else bit.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

OK- that makes more sense. Yes, I was thinking "um, that sounds like alpha rolling to me"... but I had to stop and think about all this. Of course, he's going to be a jerk to someone else restraining him. I don't have an issue with that. I don't think I need to make him roll to make him understand that I'm the boss. I don't think I need to do things to him that he doesn't want done to make him realize I'm the boss. I've gotten a million different opinions on this... and I'm soooo freaking confused!!!! #-o

Jake- you're in Cinci! I just moved from there in November...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I can't tell you what is wrong with the trainer exactly, as you related what you think you heard. It's a dog. Set a goal, train to that goal. I would start with sit down and stay come heel. You won't be able to do it without a trainer though as you in your mind are turning your dog into something it isn't.

Your "trainer" enabled that if you relayed exactly what you heard.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

What am I turning my dog into that he isn't? I was told to go to this trainer who deals with 'behavioral' issues. Other than being a pushy ass who will ignore me if I let him... and leaks a LOT... I didn't think he had a behavior problem.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> That is some of the dumbest shit you could do.


I haven't even read past the assessment and thought the same thing--DUMB. Now, back to reading.


T


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Again a lot of bs. You don't control dogs through dominance, you control them through training and obedience. The is no need for you to ever role that dog n it's back and neither should anyone else. Dogs cannot generalize. You say you are ok with the dog going after the trainer, but what would happen if you kid or friend came over and did something the dog perceived s similar and bit them. Buch of nonsense. My advice would be to forget everything you think you know about dogs and find a real trainer who knows how to actually train a dog and not just push it into a fight.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Well, the trainer in the class was doing that... but he wouldn't shut up so he got booted. Now he has to repeat it later when he can settle down. ](*,)

I didn't mean I was OK with him going after the trainer. What I meant was that I'm OK with him not being OK with a stranger coming up and doing that to him.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

He is not a pushy ass, he is an out of control dog that you are allowing to become a hazard to you and others. There is no such thing as a behaviorist. Just someone who talk a bunch of fancy crap and offers asinine solutions that are going to get people but and dogs put down. Find a real dog trainer. Not a master trainer, a behaviorist, a behavioralist, a dogmas, any or the above nonsense. Find someone who calls themselves a dog trainer and erase all the bad info and knowledge you have as of now.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

How do I get him not 'out of control'?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Dogs can't learn shit in group classes. It is like teaching a kindergartner math at recess. You use group classes to proof commands that you are 100%sure your dog knows. That is at a minimum step three in the process, not step one.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> He is not a pushy ass, he is an out of control dog that you are allowing to become a hazard to you and others. ..... Find a real dog trainer. Not a master trainer, a behaviorist, a behavioralist, a dogmas, any or the above nonsense. Find someone who calls themselves a dog trainer and erase all the bad info and knowledge you have as of now.




+ 1000000000

Have you even taught basic obedience to any dog?

Reading all that stuff sure makes me long for _sit, come, down._

And not in a class.






ETA 
I guess I was typing while Jake was posting.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

I've never done group classes before, so this is new for me also. I guess I will go back to training on my own then. It's WAY too much stimulation for him at this point, I think. He literally changed over night. Used to be VERY well behaved, and only barked maybe 5 times in 4 months. Then, he found his bark and it was over.

Have *I* ever taught basic obedience? Yes.. since I was a kid. However, I wanted to do IPO with this dog, so I was told to go to these classes. That's where all the trouble really started. My previous shepherds were all taught by me and did fine with no trainer involved at all.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jag Scott said:


> How do I get him not 'out of control'?


 
I have to go to work, but one last thing.

We are here to help. Not trying to do anything but prevent you from having to kill this dog in a few months because he stayed out of control.

That is the reality of how this goes. Good luck. Don't you train with a club??


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

You say you're in Ohio. If you want come on down to Cincinnati and you can see what a real training facility offers. We have free demos Wed. At 730. Come on down and bring your dog. For more info, PM me.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Jag, if you haven't already you can ask others to refer you to some dog trainer(s) in your area. Just a thought.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

I go to a club, but was told to do these classes by the president of the club.

I'm just south of Toledo, so it's about 3 hours to Cinci. I've been training (the classes) at Northfield in Michigan. I like that trainer, but Grim was too disruptive.

I thought we were going to be working on 'capping' and 'leaking' but that's not what I walked away with.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Then why don't you just do Private lessons with that trainer?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

The instructor of the first obedience class I took my then 7 month old Malinois to, told me, in the very first lesson, that I 'was going to have problems with that dog' because my dog grumbled at me when I tried to push him into a down. Useless tit, she was, though we managed to pass the course because my dog is smart and I stopped trying to push him around.

While I haven't done anything spectacular with my dog, I'm pretty sure I've accomplished more (multiple low level titles) with my 'problem dog' than any of the other handlers in that class. It just took finding the right people to train with.

Neither of my dogs like being manhandled. Both will tolerate it, and I find ways to pet/stroke/scratch them that they like. As far as training, the clicker, a pile of treats and a tug toy took me further than all the yanking and cranking I did before.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

You can't work on capping or leaking, again just more terms for a dog being out of control and not well trained, unless the dog has a solid foundation of obedience. Why don't you put up some video of your training that you have done so we can see whe you are at?


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

I was going to do privates with the president of the club, but she wanted to see what this trainer had to say first. I guess if I need to, I can do privates with the first trainer. I don't want to mess up my dog further. I think doing some of this stuff will do that.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

OK, I'll get video later when someone's here to do it. Sometimes he gets... I don't know... fed up? He'll just walk away sometimes when I'm trying to work with him. Maybe he thinks he's done enough. He's always been vocal. That didn't bother me. When the barking started, though, that bothered me. He's not a 'mean' dog. He loves everyone and all dogs. However, when she was restraining him and petting him with a little force, he got upset. I've NEVER seen him do that. He's just not a mean dog.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

To be brutally honest Jag you have no idea what kind of dog you have, nor the ability to judge what you are seeing. Why did your club president send you to the behriorist? There is not a sport trainer that I know who would ever give that advice.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> To be brutally honest Jag you have no idea what kind of dog you have, nor the ability to judge what you are seeing. Why did your club president send you to the behriorist? There is not a sport trainer that I know who would ever give that advice.


+1

Sounds like the club President is either blowing you off sending you to a Behaviorist or doesn't have a clue about dog training.
What does the Training Director say about your dog?


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

The helper? I don't know all the 'title's of everyone since this is my first go round with IPO. When he was evaluated at the club, I was told he's got a great temperament, great nerves, good bite with a solid grip. He's immature, lacks focus. Needs time to 'grow up'. Great genetics, and everything that he needs to do IPO is there.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "When he was younger, he didn't like to be held, so I didn't hold him. He didn't like to be petted unless he wanted to be petted...so I didn't pet him unless he wanted to be."
** those are two PRIME examples of where you went wrong from the start. They also should have been eye openers, a few MONTHS ago, because that's when your dog started TELLING you 

until you learn some basic canine behavior, trainers will help the dog but you will probably not be able to follow thru after they leave. of course since you mentioned how you have trained numerous dogs in IPO, that probably also means you were just lucky, so i would be careful before bad mouthing other trainers ](*,)

YOU are your dog's trainer, 24/7, no matter who helps you along the way. get a system in place and don't just learn "techniques"
OB is great but only if you know how to USE it. 

u REALLY need to post a long vid of you interacting with your dog ... or get a LOT more descriptive in your write ups

at this point, based on what you have posted to date, Culture Clash is a simple read that would help you a lot with understanding basic canine behaviors and what makes them tick ... IF u read it and then APPLY it in the real world

sure you can learn a lot from a good club, but you have a relationship problem with your dog that clubs won't solve for you. in fact it might even diminish what you can learn because it might cause club members to make comments that will just piss you off. 

bottom line advice from me ----- it's GOTTA start at home and should be an easy day for a pup of seven months

good luck and glad you got thick skin
we only take time to write if we really do want to help


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> To be brutally honest Jag you have no idea what kind of dog you have, nor the ability to judge what you are seeing. Why did your club president send you to the behriorist? There is not a sport trainer that I know who would ever give that advice.


 I know my dog. Everyone else that's giving me opinions (trainers) doesn't know my dog. I was told by the club person that I had to take all these classes. So, we went. He found his bark. Too disruptive to be in class. So then I'm set up to go to this other trainer to fix the bark. I don't know why I'm taking classes instead of just going to the club.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

because its not a club...its a business....not many real clubs around...

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

rick smith said:


> re: "When he was younger, he didn't like to be held, so I didn't hold him. He didn't like to be petted unless he wanted to be petted...so I didn't pet him unless he wanted to be."
> ** those are two PRIME examples of where you went wrong from the start. They also should have been eye openers, a few MONTHS ago, because that's when your dog started TELLING you
> 
> until you learn some basic canine behavior, trainers will help the dog but you will probably not be able to follow thru after they leave. of course since you mentioned how you have trained numerous dogs in IPO, that probably also means you were just lucky, so i would be careful before bad mouthing other trainers ](*,)
> ...


I really appreciate the responses, too. I can tell you where the problem started. I didn't teach him anything but 'sit' and 'down' up to this point. Some 'leave it' and 'out'. Why? Because I didn't want to teach it 'wrong' and have to undo it for IPO purposes. My other dogs I wasn't worried about any of that. They were trained with voice and hand signals. I wasn't rushing anything, either. They had beautiful heels (although they didn't look up at me, they knew when I was going to turn and went with me). All of this other stuff... it's just messed everything up. Too many suggestions, most of which were useless for MY dog. Trying to overpower my dog or 'show him who's in charge' by forcing him to do stuff he doesn't want to do is going to just cause a fight. If he's going to look for a fight if pushed, why do that??? I agree, classes are for proofing. You teach without distractions first, then add them in over time. I think I need to stop with the classes and trainers and just teach my dog like I taught my other dogs. I just wanted to do IPO, and thought the earlier we start, the better. 

I missed part of your response.. sorry. I haven't ever done IPO. I was answering to have I ever done basic obedience. That I've trained. IPO is totally new for me. Yes, I realize now I totally screwed up when he was little. TOTALLY. I feel like a moron, too.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Jag Scott said:


> I know my dog. Everyone else that's giving me opinions (trainers) doesn't know my dog. I was told by the club person that I had to take all these classes..


Sounds like your getting closed minded now...try not to. 

You have some good people here trying to help you. A 3 hour ride is nothing for good training, advice and a new friend. If I was you I would take Jake up on his offer.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

OK, now that I have read past the assessment, I'll comment. I first met my dog Rhemy when he was 9 weeks old when I instinct tested his litter. His breeder wasn't too keen on him--thought he was fearful. I didn't see that and asked her what she meant? She said watch. When she picked him up, he growled. In all other things, he was fine. Once I instinct tested him [herding], I was amazed. Best puppy instinct test I've seen and his attraction to stock was through the roof. Then I picked him up. He growled. But he settled on my lap and went to sleep, so I thought fine. Once I got him home, I carried him around alot. He stopped growling. Took him to a herding trial and a friend picked him up. He was fine. Until she started wrestling with him on her lap while restraining him. Can a 12 week old puppy go into fight/aggression? That's what he LOOKED like. I quickly told her to stop and started petting him on her lap. He relaxed. I told her to pet him. He was fine. Then I picked him up and left. When I started with the grooming--combing and such--especially around his butt--he growled. I kept combing and for several days, did lots of it. He had points growing up where he would growl when doing nails--around the age of your puppy. I kept doing nails. He quit growling. He gets lots of baths--no issues and nails I do every 7-10 days. His breeder says she has run into issues with the sire and muzzled him for certain things especially when girlie dogs are in season. While working stock and in the process of a grip [bite], I grabbed him and said "no." He growled and his head whipped around. He was loaded in all sorts of prey/frustration etc. I had him by the scruff and said no and he growled again. I didn't release him with the growl and until after he calmed. He was less than a year then. He is now almost 18 months old. At different ages when he was younger, he growled at certain handling. I kept handling. He has a very high food drive and I've used marker training for all his training. I also conditioned a "no" when he was younger. He's not handler hard though out of drive. In drive he possibly could be but I've used marker training so much he doesn't go to la la land.

The first question I have about you and this dog is "I don't want to fight with my dog" and you hauling him to different trainers. That tells me that you are worried about your ability to deal with your dog. The dog knows it. Second, I would ask who your breeder is and have you contacted them regarding the stage the dog is in now? Like mine, I would say your dog showed certain issues about his personality from the beginning. Yes, you gave into him but I don't think its too late given his age. I'm sorta old school in that I demand that my dogs accept any handling from me and I'm not using any type of aids like collars, muzzles and other crap. But that works for me. I also believe in pack theory where dogs are concerned but I can also implement it. Some people can't. You need to start training this dog NOW with a very strict program that both you and your wife follow to the letter.

I'm a cookie trainer but believe wholeheartedly that the human has to be the leader in the dog/human relationship and the dog must accept the human as the leader--one way or the other. The dog reads what is coming from you internally as well as externally. Your puppy has learned that if he growls and fights, he wins. 

1. Google "Nothing In Life Is Free" [NILIF] and William Campbell. I do this with one of my competition dogs. Down before she comes out of her crate and don't come out until I call her. I call her and then, heel to the door. Down before I open the door and don't go out until I call her. Heel until I release her to go potty--and so on. Its a PITA but she becomes much more compliant in her work. And its all rewarded.

2. Call breeder for break down on what to expect at different ages and how he/she has handled certain things. Doesn't mean you will do it the same way but background information.

3. Find a "working dog" not pet trainer that understands this frame of mind and does marker/clicker training. I wouldn't put an e-collar on him and don't think that's right for you and your wife but that's just me. Be prepared for that suggestion. There will be the "we need to nip this in the bud" now frame of mind and I don't disagree with that but it has to be something you and your wife can do and succeed. 

4. And this should probably be first, but ask yourself what in life does your dog see as an ultimate reward? Make a list of everything he protests both with you and your wife. If he will work for what he likes best as a reward, you might be able to train him to accept and prefer things he previously didn't like or react too. You want him to choose these things because they are the path to reward. NILIF instead of might makes right, can instill in him that you control what is valuable to him--therefore, you're the pack leader. Or so the theory goes. 

5. Google Michael Ellis so you can see some of the marker training in action and start learning how to do it. 

Here, we can only make suggestions but we are not there when it happens. The trainer needs to see your dynamic with the dog. A GSD [I'm assuming by your signature line that's what he is] has one master and "tolerates" others. My mother taught me that and she learned that from being around my dad's GSDs. I've seen it in each of my own. They tolerated hubby and adored/guarded the baby. In my absence, hubby could command them to do anything and care for them. When I was home, they ignored him. In public or when people visited, they watched them but could care less about social interaction which is how they should be. If you're it, he will will choose you and and only accept certain things from YOU. That's why your wife needs to get involved with him and work him.

I think you have a serious issue [needs action now] and potentially dangerous one. Its not a big deal for any of us because 1) we wouldn't let it get this far; and 2) we'd nip it in the bud and doggie would get a clue. Someone else less experienced is gonna label him a monster. He COULD be going through some growing pains and testing the waters. If he is of the dominant sort, he's not done yet. He's going to hit other points along the way like 16-18 months where he will test them again and with his handlers. If you have serious working dog, you have to be able to step up to the plate and deal. If he won't accept certain things from you, assume he's not going to accept them and it could be much worse if someone else tries the same thing. This was the dumb part for me where the trainer was concerned. There are some protection sport trainers that don't get all hot and bothered if their dog will bite them or otherwise show some sort of aggression response. I don't tolerate it. It has to stop--one way or the other and quick. Between 6-9 months, a GSD will start to have less use for people outside of their pack. At this point trying to hand him off to some trainer and one that doesn't know what they are dealing with is a risk that someone will get bit. You can't look at him as a puppy/baby and he needs to respect his handlers. Time to get busy.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> Dogs can't learn shit in group classes. It is like teaching a kindergartner math at recess. You use group classes to proof commands that you are 100%sure your dog knows. That is at a minimum step three in the process, not step one.


Agreed. More of a social get together.


T


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Doug Zaga said:


> Sounds like your getting closed minded now...try not to.
> 
> You have some good people here trying to help you. A 3 hour ride is nothing for good training, advice and a new friend. If I was you I would take Jake up on his offer.


Maybe I don't know what you mean by I don't know my dog. If you can explain, I'd appreciate it. Others (trainers) have assumed that when he was barking, he was barking at the other dogs there. He wasn't. He doesn't bark at other dogs. He was barking at the walls, the air, etc. Not directed at anyone. It took filming it outside of class to get them to believe. So that's what I meant. I know what he's doing. I also know I 'screwed the pooch' when he was younger. It wouldn't hurt one bit to go to Cinci, so I may well take him up! I appreciate the offer, too!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> because its not a club...its a business....not many real clubs around...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


+1 :-(


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Jag Scott said:


> Maybe I don't know what you mean by I don't know my dog. If you can explain, I'd appreciate it. Others (trainers) have assumed that when he was barking, he was barking at the other dogs there. He wasn't. He doesn't bark at other dogs. He was barking at the walls, the air, etc. Not directed at anyone. It took filming it outside of class to get them to believe. So that's what I meant. I know what he's doing. I also know I 'screwed the pooch' when he was younger. It wouldn't hurt one bit to go to Cinci, so I may well take him up! I appreciate the offer, too!


Jag, no disrespect meant but Plain and simple if you knew what you were doing or or you knew your dog or you could read your dog you wouldn't be posting here with these issues....am I correct? 

Take the ride to see Jake...get an honest opinion and take it from there. What can you lose except a little bit of time and some gas money?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jag Scott said:


> I really appreciate the responses, too. I can tell you where the problem started. I didn't teach him anything but 'sit' and 'down' up to this point. Some 'leave it' and 'out'. Why? Because I didn't want to teach it 'wrong' and have to undo it for IPO purposes. My other dogs I wasn't worried about any of that. They were trained with voice and hand signals. I wasn't rushing anything, either. They had beautiful heels (although they didn't look up at me, they knew when I was going to turn and went with me). All of this other stuff... it's just messed everything up. Too many suggestions, most of which were useless for MY dog. Trying to overpower my dog or 'show him who's in charge' by forcing him to do stuff he doesn't want to do is going to just cause a fight. If he's going to look for a fight if pushed, why do that??? I agree, classes are for proofing. You teach without distractions first, then add them in over time. I think I need to stop with the classes and trainers and just teach my dog like I taught my other dogs. I just wanted to do IPO, and thought the earlier we start, the better.
> 
> I missed part of your response.. sorry. I haven't ever done IPO. I was answering to have I ever done basic obedience. That I've trained. IPO is totally new for me. Yes, I realize now I totally screwed up when he was little. TOTALLY. I feel like a moron, too.


 
What you have taught him as far as commands has nothing to do with how he relates to you. A protection club TD sent you to classes for obedience??? I don't know if you've dealt with a dog of this frame of mind so any other dog you've had is irrelevant. Also, this all has nothing to do with obedience commands. It has to do with how the dog sees you.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jag:

I've read all your ressponses and the posts that were occuring while I was writing mine. What you think you know about dogs and your past experiences doesn't apply to this dog. You don't know or understand him or understand his type or what he has potential to become. We and other trainers do. I'd take Jake up on that invitation and make the three hour drive and do so as soon as possible.

T


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What you have taught him as far as commands has nothing to do with how he relates to you. A protection club TD sent you to classes for obedience??? I don't know if you've dealt with a dog of this frame of mind so any other dog you've had is irrelevant. Also, this all has nothing to do with obedience commands. It has to do with how the dog sees you.
> 
> T


Yes, the person in charge of the club sent me for classes. Then said I should go see this person today. I've only been 'going all over' because that's where I was told to go. Thank you for your long post! I want to make clear, though, that my dog has never growled at me, shown me teeth, or any other sort of aggression. Not that I don't realize this could come into play, but to date he's never done this. He didn't growl or show teeth at her, either. He whipped his head around a few times at her. She said he was 'warning' her and she kept on until he stopped whining and vocalizing. I have already been working with NILF. We've been working on that he does nothing until he goes through me and does what I'm asking. He's been working for all of his food. I put him on the 'dead ring' of a pinch and picked up his front feet to stop the jumping around barking non-sense a couple times. He's stopped doing that now. We've been using markers and food for sit, 'watch me', down, and working on 'stay'. He's made some great progress. I have been in contact with his breeder. She says 'get control of him' and told me to do the above things with him except with a choke and not a pinch. She's been there all through this. I'm just frustrated because I'm getting too many different things being told to me to do. Some are conflicting. My breeder stopped doing IPO because she says it's too political, but respected my want to do IPO with him. She told me to stay on top of him. I screwed up, and I own that. I appreciate all the help I can get on getting him back on track.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Jag:
> 
> I've read all your ressponses and the posts that were occuring while I was writing mine. What you think you know about dogs and your past experiences doesn't apply to this dog. You don't know or understand him or understand his type or what he has potential to become. We and other trainers do. I'd take Jake up on that invitation and make the three hour drive and do so as soon as possible.
> 
> T


You are correct in that he's not like any of my other shepherds. He's a very tough Czech dog with a more dominant personality than what I've had before. He can't have the same 'handling' as my previous dogs.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Your dog is not dominant he is a 7 mon old untrained energetic puppy who has learned to manipulate his environment, mainly you. Way to much freedom and no training. For god sakes you say you have been working with him a bunch and all he knows is sit and down? My offer stands.

In regards to the club as a business, look at it this way. Most clubs are en by professional trainers. They run the club as their.hobby, not their business. Club time is where you train bitework and finally your own personal dog. If someone co.es to the club and doesn't know how yo teach ob, it is not the setting to teach that in. We charge almost nothing for our club. Giving free ob lessons, which we charge others for and is how we make our living, is not part of club. Food for thought.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> Your dog is not dominant he is a 7 mon old untrained energetic puppy who has learned to manipulate his environment, mainly you. Way to much freedom and no training. For god sakes you say you have been working with him a bunch and all he knows is sit and down? *My offer stands.*


+100

Now stop making every excuse Jag and do something good for yourself and your dog. PM Jake and meet him this weekend!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> Your dog is not dominant he is a 7 mon old untrained energetic puppy who has learned to manipulate his environment, mainly you. Way to much freedom and no training. For god sakes you say you have been working with him a bunch and all he knows is sit and down? My offer stands.
> 
> In regards to the club as a business, look at it this way. Most clubs are en by professional trainers. They run the club as their.hobby, not their business. Club time is where you train bitework and finally your own personal dog. If someone co.es to the club and doesn't know how yo teach ob, it is not the setting to teach that in. We charge almost nothing for our club. Giving free ob lessons, which we charge others for and is how we make our living, is not part of club. Food for thought.


=D>=D>=D>

Exactly right and nuff said!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jag Scott said:


> Yes, the person in charge of the club sent me for classes. Then said I should go see this person today. I've only been 'going all over' because that's where I was told to go. Thank you for your long post! I want to make clear, though, that my dog has never growled at me, shown me teeth, or any other sort of aggression. Not that I don't realize this could come into play, but to date he's never done this. He didn't growl or show teeth at her, either. He whipped his head around a few times at her. She said he was 'warning' her and she kept on until he stopped whining and vocalizing. I have already been working with NILF. We've been working on that he does nothing until he goes through me and does what I'm asking. He's been working for all of his food. I put him on the 'dead ring' of a pinch and picked up his front feet to stop the jumping around barking non-sense a couple times. He's stopped doing that now. We've been using markers and food for sit, 'watch me', down, and working on 'stay'. He's made some great progress. I have been in contact with his breeder. She says 'get control of him' and told me to do the above things with him except with a choke and not a pinch. She's been there all through this. I'm just frustrated because I'm getting too many different things being told to me to do. Some are conflicting. My breeder stopped doing IPO because she says it's too political, but respected my want to do IPO with him. She told me to stay on top of him. I screwed up, and I own that. I appreciate all the help I can get on getting him back on track.



You get different opinions because there are different schools of thought and trainers and perhaps because you keep changing in how you characterize the dog. The first rule of thumb in dog training is objectivity and hang your emotions at the door. I have a friend like you. If I characterize her dog's behavior, she sees it as me saying something negative about the dog or her. She will then either get mad at me, or recharacterize the behavior so as to make it more positive or both. Here is what you said about the dog in the first post:


*When held by the collar and petted on his side by the trainer, he threatened to bite her and took a couple swipes. Later when we were talking, he just stared at her... challenging her. When he was younger, he didn't like to be held, so I didn't hold him. He didn't like to be petted unless he wanted to be petted...so I didn't pet him unless he wanted to be. He's a good dog.... until you do something he doesn't want you to do.*



You've now gone from threatening to bite her and taking a couple of swipes to her holding him until he stopped whining. Then later, him staring at her for a challenge. You then say he's good until "you do something he doesn't want to do?" What does he do when you do something he doesn't want to do or do you know because she you always give in and stop? I suspect, but hope you don't, have "I have the bad ass dog" syndrome. One minute he's "tough" and then when that does't impress, he's a pussycat. Did the IPO tranier send you to class becausse he's dog aggresssive? What obedience are you working on with the club? What type of protection work are you doing?



T


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm a behaviorist trainer & if you think behavior evaluation isn't part of training you're missing an important part of the whole picture. Laying a dog on its side isn't a rollover or dominance it's called compliance & I personally don't advise it for a dog that will be a working dog as it does stifle drive depending on the dog.
T was right on about not taking charge in the beginning but quit looking back wasting your energies there, get on with it. If the dog is not barking at anyone then it says he is attention getting. Throw him in the crate covering it for 5 min. No longer than 8min. Take him out again, if need be keep repeating it until he gets the message, play the game my way or not at all. Marker train him teaching focus no matter what's around. Don't start in group as stated that's for proofing & I personally think again that quashes a dogs drive boring the crap out of him. Short positive sessions extending them as he becomes proficient build on a foundation. Quit looking at him (peripheal vision a.k.a. Mom vision) use a long line & walk away from him especially when he doesn't pay attention, don't say a word except when he engages you, quietly say good but don't touch until you've put time in. If he growls crate him as stated before. If you want to get rid of him PM me I like dogs with character now all he needs is leadership & manners. Don't conflict him with yank & crank. Ignore unwanted behavior.
I like when the really smart people throw a blanket over someone i.e. behaviorist, not everyone is the same, maybe just in your neighborhood. Will F. Is right on also everyone that's titled A dog or been a decoy/helper becomes an expert, hard to find a good club! You problay have a very good dog, don't listen to everyone becoming confused, relax work it out, no one should be judging you just advising.
Favorite T-shirt: "One thing trainers agree upon, that trainers don't agree on anything"
Just thought I'd put my two cents in but you got a nickel....:-\"


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Of course being able to read a dog and understand dog behavior is important. To me it is the most important part aside from timing. Steve you call yourself a behaviorist and a trainer. Let me ask you this. After your behavioral consult, how do you go about fixing the problems? The answer I would bet 99.9% of the time is obedience. Training.

I by no means consider myself an expert. I work hard to improve my trainin and learn more everyday with dogs. I have worked hard and emersed myself in trying to be the best decoy, trainer, and teacher I can. You take your shot at people with your last few lines there but the first part reiterated everything that had been previously stated. The dog is fine and sounds like a good dog, but has been allowed to become
a terror. Your recommendations were all obedience and finding someone for help, which is what myself and multiple other people said.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> Of course being able to read a dog and understand dog behavior is important. To me it is the most important part aside from timing. Steve you call yourself a behaviorist and a trainer. Let me ask you this. After your behavioral consult, how do you go about fixing the problems? The answer I would bet 99.9% of the time is obedience. Training.
> 
> I by no means consider myself an expert. I work hard to improve my trainin and learn more everyday with dogs. I have worked hard and emersed myself in trying to be the best decoy, trainer, and teacher I can. You take your shot at people with your last few lines there but the first part reiterated everything that had been previously stated. The dog is fine and sounds like a good dog, but has been allowed to become
> a terror. Your recommendations were all obedience and finding someone for help, which is what myself and multiple other people said.


You're right, reading the dog is most important, understanding is close second. Yes it is training in a sense, giving direction. I see training as more formalized. And yes I did sound rude & forgive me it wasn't directed at anyone or personal I don't see gain by that, writing here can be so misconstrued or in my case not so apply stated. I admit it did get my dander up even on my very fading hairline. I just hate being thrown in with others that i wouldnt agree with either. Thats why Behaviorist/Trainer, I work in all phases of training & sports, specializing in aggressive dogs (have the holes to prove it/mistakes) My true love is protection sports though. I think you offer was genuine & should be taken up on also. Thank you for your honest open reply. Youre right the more dogs you deal with the more you learn. Keep it up! O


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Steve Estrada said:


> You're right, reading the dog is most important, understanding is close second. Yes it is training in a sense, giving direction. I see training as more formalized. And yes I did sound rude & forgive me it wasn't directed at anyone or personal I don't see gain by that, writing here can be so misconstrued or in my case not so apply stated. I admit it did get my dander up even on my very fading hairline. I just hate being thrown in with others that i wouldnt agree with either. Thats why Behaviorist/Trainer, I work in all phases of training & sports, specializing in aggressive dogs (have the holes to prove it/mistakes) My true love is protection sports though. I think you offer was genuine & should be taken up on also. Thank you for your honest open reply. Youre right the more dogs you deal with the more you learn. Keep it up! O


I think its a perception/generalization thing. For instance, you say you use clicker/marker training and right away, people leap to R+ ONLY. You hear "behaviorist" and some think of one type of trainer. These type of labels or stereotypes just don't fit.

T


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Assuming your behaviorist or whoever is correct having an 'alpha' is not a bad thing. In fact, it's a great thing. I too own an 'alpha' and a 'strong beta.' Personally, I think every dog is different and needs individual attention. I don't like the alpha beta charlie system. At any rate, my alpha wear his heart and his wants on his sleeve. It's EASY to see what he wants, hid biddable with ease but would just as soon bite someone if he thought it would get him what he wants. He does what he's told because he's an asshole and only cares about himself and his "pack leaders." He does what I ask he gets what he wants. Easy. The out of control barking is a simple as him telling you what he wants. It may be a toy, a treat, water, to sniff a butt, whatever. Keep him on lead and let him go to where his focus is provided it's safe for everyone. Then use that to gain control and obedience. Also, as a pup I only reinforced behavior I wanted when he was young. Barking? I ignored it. Jumping? Ignored it. No out? No more tug. He's offering you a behavior to get something. In the past he's barked his head off and gotten what he wanted so why not do it now? You said yourself you only petted and held him when he wanted. If that's what he wants make him work for it. He doesn't great that some behaviors are "bad" and some are "good" he gets that doing "x" gets him something. Show him he's wrong. When he stops barking pay attention to him, if he barks, ignore him. It's not dominance or showing him who's boss or any of that. The near fact you're in possession of what he wants means you're in control that being said my "alpha" has figured out that I'm the only person that gives him what he wants. If a kid is bothering him, he'll come to me and sit down and I'll ask the nose picker to leave him alone.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You get different opinions because there are different schools of thought and trainers and perhaps because you keep changing in how you characterize the dog. The first rule of thumb in dog training is objectivity and hang your emotions at the door. I have a friend like you. If I characterize her dog's behavior, she sees it as me saying something negative about the dog or her. She will then either get mad at me, or recharacterize the behavior so as to make it more positive or both. Here is what you said about the dog in the first post:
> 
> 
> *When held by the collar and petted on his side by the trainer, he threatened to bite her and took a couple swipes. Later when we were talking, he just stared at her... challenging her. When he was younger, he didn't like to be held, so I didn't hold him. He didn't like to be petted unless he wanted to be petted...so I didn't pet him unless he wanted to be. He's a good dog.... until you do something he doesn't want you to do.*
> ...


I'll try to make sure I answer everything here. I was typing slower than my mind was going, so let me clarify in order how things went. We came in the door, and Grim was whining/vocalizing. I was told he was thinking with his 'back brain' and needed to 'settle down'. So she had one hand holding onto his flat collar, and was petting his side (not a gentle pet, but a firm pet- long strokes down his side) and not allowing him to move away from her. So, restraining him. He started vocalizing and whining MORE- like he was angry. He turned his head quickly towards her hand and face a few times. She said he was threatening her. Acting like he was going to bite her. He started sounding MORE ticked off, and kept trying to move away. She didn't allow that, and continued. Then he was flipping his head very quick towards her hand...which is what I'm saying was a 'swipe'. She moved so that he couldn't bite her. I didn't see him open his mouth, but he looked like he was thinking of biting her and she said he was thinking about it. She kept him like that for a few minutes, waiting for him to 'give up' on the whining and 'settle'. She told me it was to 'calm' him. However, he seemed more upset to me. LATER when we were wrapping things up is when we were sitting on the floor and he was laying next to me giving her a hard stare. She didn't move, said he was 'threatening' her, wanting a fight. I distracted him with 'watch me', etc. and he quit. No, I do NOT have "I have a bad ass dog" syndrome! I had a bitch that was out of her head and attacked people at random that I dealt with for many, many years. Never wanted to go through that again. I told the breeder that I did NOT want the alpha. Such is life. Most 'bad ass' dogs have something wrong with them, and I see them as a danger, not as something 'cool' to have. I don't think he's a bad ass dog, either. He likes people, he likes other dogs. It was a stranger trying to push him into submission, and he didn't like it. As far as I'm concerned, he needs only to be submissive to me. I wanted to title him in IPO. I wanted to have a dog to go places with me and do things with me. That's it. I'm not interested in Cujo. 
What I meant by 'don't do things he doesn't like' I meant someone intentionally trying to make him mad- like a stranger trying to dominate him. She'd told me before we met that she was 'going to make him mad' at her. I didn't know what she meant by that. No, I don't 'give in' to him. Until about a month ago, he wasn't acting out. I took him all over the place with me. I still do. When he's barking, it's not at a person or a dog. He's just barking. period. No, he's never been dog aggressive. The club person wanted me to take him to the training place to get his obedience foundation for IPO. That's it. The week before classes started, he started in with the barking at the air, the walls, whatever... and jumping around acting like he was on Red Bull. I have been to the club once- for his evaluation. That's it. So the only 'bitework' he did was the eval. As for the 'working with him' question that someone asked.. we were doing a lot of work on 'watch me' trying to get him to focus. I started working on 'stay' also. The rest was waiting to see if his barking was going to pass or what so he could go to class. Yes, we did a lot of sit, stand, down also. He also learned shake and speak. We worked on him coming into heel position. We worked on 'here'... which he does very well with. He sits right in front of me looking me in the eye. With distractions right now, he doesn't do so well, but we still work on it. He has a very short attention span. We've been doing NILF. We've been doing behavior work like 'house rules'. So we really haven't started at the club. It was cancelled every week for a month because of bad weather. Last week cancelled for the yearly 'meeting'. I don't know about this week. Still working on the 'hush' and being calm and focusing on me. It's getting better. It's going to take time, but he's already made progress with it. Talked to my breeder again this evening. She's very helpful and supportive. Oh, and he was NOT acting out like this at the club.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

That chick sounds crazy you sound sane. It sounds like you're doing everything right. It sounds like you get he's a puppy. He'll go through a teenage stage too where you'll want to hold him under water. Then all of a sudden he doesn't. Get this tattooed on you: calm; consistent; fair. Ignore his errant asshat puppy behavior and reinforce his "good dog" behavior with whatever it is that he likes. One of mine LOVES dust mops. I'm going to make a tug out of one. The little shit won't let me mop. Rather than train it out of him, I'll use it to my advantage.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jag Scott said:


> I'll try to make sure I answer everything here. I was typing slower than my mind was going, so let me clarify in order how things went. We came in the door, and Grim was whining/vocalizing. I was told he was thinking with his 'back brain' and needed to 'settle down'. So she had one hand holding onto his flat collar, and was petting his side (not a gentle pet, but a firm pet- long strokes down his side) and not allowing him to move away from her. So, restraining him. He started vocalizing and whining MORE- like he was angry. He turned his head quickly towards her hand and face a few times. She said he was threatening her. Acting like he was going to bite her. He started sounding MORE ticked off, and kept trying to move away. She didn't allow that, and continued. Then he was flipping his head very quick towards her hand...which is what I'm saying was a 'swipe'. She moved so that he couldn't bite her. I didn't see him open his mouth, but he looked like he was thinking of biting her and she said he was thinking about it. She kept him like that for a few minutes, waiting for him to 'give up' on the whining and 'settle'. She told me it was to 'calm' him. However, he seemed more upset to me. LATER when we were wrapping things up is when we were sitting on the floor and he was laying next to me giving her a hard stare. She didn't move, said he was 'threatening' her, wanting a fight. I distracted him with 'watch me', etc. and he quit. No, I do NOT have "I have a bad ass dog" syndrome! I had a bitch that was out of her head and attacked people at random that I dealt with for many, many years. Never wanted to go through that again. I told the breeder that I did NOT want the alpha. Such is life. Most 'bad ass' dogs have something wrong with them, and I see them as a danger, not as something 'cool' to have. I don't think he's a bad ass dog, either. He likes people, he likes other dogs. It was a stranger trying to push him into submission, and he didn't like it. As far as I'm concerned, he needs only to be submissive to me. I wanted to title him in IPO. I wanted to have a dog to go places with me and do things with me. That's it. I'm not interested in Cujo.
> What I meant by 'don't do things he doesn't like' I meant someone intentionally trying to make him mad- like a stranger trying to dominate him. She'd told me before we met that she was 'going to make him mad' at her. I didn't know what she meant by that. No, I don't 'give in' to him. Until about a month ago, he wasn't acting out. I took him all over the place with me. I still do. When he's barking, it's not at a person or a dog. He's just barking. period. No, he's never been dog aggressive. The club person wanted me to take him to the training place to get his obedience foundation for IPO. That's it. The week before classes started, he started in with the barking at the air, the walls, whatever... and jumping around acting like he was on Red Bull. I have been to the club once- for his evaluation. That's it. So the only 'bitework' he did was the eval. As for the 'working with him' question that someone asked.. we were doing a lot of work on 'watch me' trying to get him to focus. I started working on 'stay' also. The rest was waiting to see if his barking was going to pass or what so he could go to class. Yes, we did a lot of sit, stand, down also. He also learned shake and speak. We worked on him coming into heel position. We worked on 'here'... which he does very well with. He sits right in front of me looking me in the eye. With distractions right now, he doesn't do so well, but we still work on it. He has a very short attention span. We've been doing NILF. We've been doing behavior work like 'house rules'. So we really haven't started at the club. It was cancelled every week for a month because of bad weather. Last week cancelled for the yearly 'meeting'. I don't know about this week. Still working on the 'hush' and being calm and focusing on me. It's getting better. It's going to take time, but he's already made progress with it. Talked to my breeder again this evening. She's very helpful and supportive. Oh, and he was NOT acting out like this at the club.


 
Good to know certain things are ruled out. He sounds like a puppy staging and possibly a drive amp. As for the trainer, I'm not sure what you told her on the phone for her to respond with "I'm going to make him mad at me." What did they say about him at the evaluation? I'm still not sure WHY you are seeking opinions about this dog at all with what you've provided regarding your personal training and house manners.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Sounds like your getting closed minded now...try not to.
> 
> You have some good people here trying to help you. A 3 hour ride is nothing for good training, advice and a new friend. If I was you I would take Jake up on his offer.


With the quality of folks and experience you'll get at PAC it's worth the drive. If I had an issue with training I couldn't solve, I would call on these guys to help for sure!!


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Ted Summers said:


> Assuming your behaviorist or whoever is correct having an 'alpha' is not a bad thing. In fact, it's a great thing. I too own an 'alpha' and a 'strong beta.' Personally, I think every dog is different and needs individual attention. I don't like the alpha beta charlie system. At any rate, my alpha wear his heart and his wants on his sleeve. It's EASY to see what he wants, hid biddable with ease but would just as soon bite someone if he thought it would get him what he wants. He does what he's told because he's an asshole and only cares about himself and his "pack leaders." He does what I ask he gets what he wants. Easy. The out of control barking is a simple as him telling you what he wants. It may be a toy, a treat, water, to sniff a butt, whatever. Keep him on lead and let him go to where his focus is provided it's safe for everyone. Then use that to gain control and obedience. Also, as a pup I only reinforced behavior I wanted when he was young. Barking? I ignored it. Jumping? Ignored it. No out? No more tug. He's offering you a behavior to get something. In the past he's barked his head off and gotten what he wanted so why not do it now? You said yourself you only petted and held him when he wanted. If that's what he wants make him work for it. He doesn't great that some behaviors are "bad" and some are "good" he gets that doing "x" gets him something. Show him he's wrong. When he stops barking pay attention to him, if he barks, ignore him. It's not dominance or showing him who's boss or any of that. The near fact you're in possession of what he wants means you're in control that being said my "alpha" has figured out that I'm the only person that gives him what he wants. If a kid is bothering him, he'll come to me and sit down and I'll ask the nose picker to leave him alone.


I can relate to this. I just have't figured out 'what' he wants when he's barking and vocalizing. ](*,) Maybe it's just over excitement because we're going somewhere... or we just got somewhere? It's like a bubbling over of excitement. Tail wagging, jumping around grabbing the leash. Like a pup on Red Bull. No aggression... just excitement and noise. We've been working on he doesn't get to go into the van, come out of the van, or go into any stores until he's quiet and has control of himself. So far, it has worked pretty well. He may need a few reminders while in the store, but not too many. I don't really think he gets yet 'what' I want, but I'm trying to be very clear.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> You're right, reading the dog is most important, understanding is close second. Yes it is training in a sense, giving direction. I see training as more formalized. And yes I did sound rude & forgive me it wasn't directed at anyone or personal I don't see gain by that, writing here can be so misconstrued or in my case not so apply stated. I admit it did get my dander up even on my very fading hairline. I just hate being thrown in with others that i wouldnt agree with either. Thats why Behaviorist/Trainer, I work in all phases of training & sports, specializing in aggressive dogs (have the holes to prove it/mistakes) My true love is protection sports though. I think you offer was genuine & should be taken up on also. Thank you for your honest open reply. Youre right the more dogs you deal with the more you learn. Keep it up! O


 
What do you have to do to be a certified behaviorist? I am a trainer as I have passed a few hands on training courses, have certificates, I know about behavior and use it to my advantage. What really makes a trainer though is hands on and being good. Schooling that teaches hands on teaches that. But then you can go into, well, there is no national certification of a trainer. Then it goes back to, well, what have the graduates accomplished. A good trainer is a good trainer, that is the final measure.

For a behaviorist, it is easier. There is a PhD in animal behavior and Psych. If you dont' have one, you aren't.

For me this is a red flag on a trainer. I tell people to steer away from someone who is posing as something they are not. Not sure how many practicing Drs in animal behavior there are.

Doesn't make them good either, but at least they have had the schooling and have earned the title.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Good to know certain things are ruled out. He sounds like a puppy staging and possibly a drive amp. As for the trainer, I'm not sure what you told her on the phone for her to respond with "I'm going to make him mad at me." What did they say about him at the evaluation? I'm still not sure WHY you are seeking opinions about this dog at all with what you've provided regarding your personal training and house manners.
> 
> T


Basically out of frustration with being sent to different trainers... and this one that instead of actually 'calming' him, it seemed to ramp him up. I hadn't heard of this 'calming technique', so wanted opinions on that as well. His SchH eval went very well! I was told he's got a great temperament, great nerves, good grip, full bite. He's got 'all the genetics' to do IPO. He's a little immature, lacking some focus, needs some time to grow up. That's about it. Wanted to check what's going on with those that have working dogs, also. My breeder is right by me with this. She knows her dogs. 

Oh, whoever said they'd take him.. sorry! You can contact my breeder, though. This boy is mine. I think it's going to come down to mixing fair correction with lots of praise and training. I've got to make sure he understands, though, before handing out corrections. I've also got to get his respect so he can see me as the leader. I don't know why she said that. Maybe because I'd filmed his last 'out of his head' moment to share. Maybe because other trainers may have talked to her first? Maybe she just wanted to challenge him to see how serious he was. She didn't say she was going to challenge him to submit before she started in, though. She said it was to calm him so he could focus. It looked like dominance to me, though. I wanted to make sure I wasn't imagining things, too. I thought that stuff was long gone. :???:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jag Scott said:


> Basically out of frustration with being sent to different trainers... and this one that instead of actually 'calming' him, it seemed to ramp him up. I hadn't heard of this 'calming technique', so wanted opinions on that as well. His SchH eval went very well! I was told he's got a great temperament, great nerves, good grip, full bite. He's got 'all the genetics' to do IPO. He's a little immature, lacking some focus, needs some time to grow up. That's about it. Wanted to check what's going on with those that have working dogs, also. My breeder is right by me with this. She knows her dogs.
> 
> Oh, whoever said they'd take him.. sorry! You can contact my breeder, though. This boy is mine. I think it's going to come down to mixing fair correction with lots of praise and training. I've got to make sure he understands, though, before handing out corrections. I've also got to get his respect so he can see me as the leader. I don't know why she said that. Maybe because I'd filmed his last 'out of his head' moment to share. Maybe because other trainers may have talked to her first? Maybe she just wanted to challenge him to see how serious he was. She didn't say she was going to challenge him to submit before she started in, though. She said it was to calm him so he could focus. It looked like dominance to me, though. I wanted to make sure I wasn't imagining things, too. I thought that stuff was long gone. :???:


What do you think corrections are--as the dog sees them?

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jag,

Educate yourself and quit wasting your money on behaviorists and pet dog training classes. There are tons of free Michael Ellis video clips on the Leerburg site and his full length Training with Food and Playing Tug with your dog are well worth the money.
If any sport "club" tells you "You have a great dog but you have to take "le$$ons" over here" RUN away !
Jake has made an offer to evaluate your dog. Take him up on it.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I'm not sure if someone else already mentioned this ...sometimes I have a hard time reading every post in a thread when I really want to chime in.

Anyway, I'd start immediately with a NILIF (nothing in life is free) approach and start asking for very basic behaviors before the dog gets anything (food, treats, attention, going outside, etc.) If he doesn't comply, he doesn't eat. Of course he still has to go outside, but even then you can take baby steps ...let him out when he looks at you or is calm for a second. You can do the same thing for food. If asking for a sit is too much, wait for eye contact or him to be calm for a second or to stop barking.

You really need to meet with a trainer ...as many others have said ...in order to get proper guidance. Dealing with these issues through an internet forum is not going to be very productive.

I also have to disagree with the trainer who wants to start working on restraining or lying your dog down. While I do expect all my dogs to allow me to touch them while they are lying down or rolling over, I don't use this as a training technique. If the dog is to the point yours is now, that is just going to instigate a fight and it sounds like your dog has already learned he can fight and win. In his case, I would prefer to use systematic desensitization and use positive reinforcement to make being touched and rolling over a positive experience. I know there are some dogs that will never accept this, but sometimes you need to examine a dog's belly, trim nails, etc. It's much easier to have a dog that wants to accept being handled rather than having a dog that needs to be sedated for the simplest of things. Think about it, trainers use operant conditioning and positive reinforcement to get lions, tigers and whales to offer their legs or bellys for injections or examinations. We should be able to accomplish the same things with dogs ...if we have enough patience and common sense.

Long story short, make your dog work for everything in life and learn to control him environment by training smarter not fighting with him. If you would like more detailed advice, I would be glad to help, but working with someone in person is going to be most beneficial.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> What do you have to do to be a certified behaviorist? I am a trainer as I have passed a few hands on training courses, have certificates, I know about behavior and use it to my advantage. What really makes a trainer though is hands on and being good. Schooling that teaches hands on teaches that. But then you can go into, well, there is no national certification of a trainer. Then it goes back to, well, what have the graduates accomplished. A good trainer is a good trainer, that is the final measure.
> 
> For a behaviorist, it is easier. There is a PhD in animal behavior and Psych. If you dont' have one, you aren't.
> 
> ...


Well guess I'm not one just have AA from Moorpark in animal behavior & studied outside of that specifically in canids. But training I've trained, everything from coursing with Sight hounds, weight pull, AKC, field dogs, tracking, therapy dogs (heart therapy dogs Int'l,) JRT's, Patterdale going to ground, Neufs for rescue, personal protection, DVG decoy, evaluator (paid) for rescues,managed private & commercial kennels & presently working, learning drug dogs. Private In-home pet dogs, worked with vendor preparing police k9s. That's it 32 yrs professionally. And I don't have all the titles which I'm not concerned but I've probably handled as many dogs as anyone or less too. But if you're looking for a Doctorate I missed the mark. Hope that helps? ](*,)


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Steve that is a hell of a resume. You are a dog trainer, plain and simple. I bet calling yourself a behaviorist brings in business, which is great. But the woman who Jag went to is a behaviorist as well. You know as well as anyone else here, that when you start seeing certain key words it raises red flags. Master trainer, extreme puppies, certified trainer, behavioralist(my favorite because it is not even a word), etc. What we do is TRAIN DOGS so we are DOG TRAINERS plain and simple. Being able to read dog behavior is a basic in dog training. I would pick someone who simply calls themselves a DOG TRAINER over anybody else. Not as flashy or special sounding, but simple and clear.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> Well guess I'm not one just have AA from Moorpark in animal behavior & studied outside of that specifically in canids. But training I've trained, everything from coursing with Sight hounds, weight pull, AKC, field dogs, tracking, therapy dogs (heart therapy dogs Int'l,) JRT's, Patterdale going to ground, Neufs for rescue, personal protection, DVG decoy, evaluator (paid) for rescues,managed private & commercial kennels & presently working, learning drug dogs. Private In-home pet dogs, worked with vendor preparing police k9s. That's it 32 yrs professionally. And I don't have all the titles which I'm not concerned but I've probably handled as many dogs as anyone or less too. But if you're looking for a Doctorate I missed the mark. Hope that helps? ](*,)


 
The thing is, since there is no set guideline for what a trainer is, some trainers use "credentials" and over embelish unverifiable certs for impressionable owners. From your posts here, having never seen you train, i wouldn't suspect that with you. I think you really care and look for answers AND have a great background.

I still wouldn't consider you a behaviorist. What I think doesn't matter, honestly, but hopefully you see where I am coming from.

I took a combat livesaver course, and an Army correspondence course to be a vet tech. I can give an IV and splint a broken bone. I am not an EMT, nurse, doctor or a Vet Tech from any of those things allthough EMTs, nurses, doctors and vet techs can do what I do, and more.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I get what you both say.



But maybe the terms most needing to be focused on here are NILIF, markers, solid foundation, leadership & manners, PM Jake, and post a good long video clip.

JMO, though.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> Jag, no disrespect meant but Plain and simple if you knew what you were doing or or you knew your dog or you could read your dog you wouldn't be posting here with these issues....am I correct?
> 
> Take the ride to see Jake...get an honest opinion and take it from there. What can you lose except a little bit of time and some gas money?


Very simple advice, Jag. Invest 6 hours round trip if you want to hang onto this dog. You have a guy, Jake, trying yo help you. You've been getting lots of opinions here and from everyone else around you. Go see Jake face to face with your dog and get a proper (non internet) assessment.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> + 1000000000
> 
> Have you even taught basic obedience to any dog?
> 
> ...



Leaders lead, followers follow...
So as the handler where are you?
Alpha rolling a 7 month old puppy??? Interesting. How did that level of disrespect get to that point?
New trainer, new handler vision, marker training and OB 101=;


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## Joe Agustin (Jan 15, 2013)

Im just gonna say this to the original poster. You let your dog as a puppy dictate what happened to him and when. He decided when he would be pet, he decided when hed be picked up or not. YOU DID NOT. You are turning that pup into a hard headed liability. You as a handler, owner, alpha must dictate what happens, when it happens and how it happens. You are creating a dog with rank. You are making any proper training in the future more difficult b/c if he doesnt wanna do it , he wont, until handled by a proper handler/trainer...sooner then later.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

I had a long talk with my breeder last night. We're in frequent contact. I felt much better about things after speaking with her. I think I have a clear idea of what I need to do with him to fix the underlying issue. 

I have accepted Jake's gracious offer to have a look at my pup. I've also been doing more reading on leadership and fixing that problem. Thank you for all of the input! He's a good dog. I just need to continue working on being a better handler.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

this is quick and dirty, but just wanna make a few comments to clarify what i mean by "evaluating the dog" and why i made the suggestions i wrote

one mistake i have seen first hand is when a competent trainer meets up to "evaluate" a dog.... the first thing they do is take the lead and start evaluating ](*,)
...or maybe they give the owner five min to put the dog thru a few paces, and then do the above ](*,)
... primarily they are evaluating working potential for their sport, so OF COURSE you will get an answer geared toward that

imo, a good trainer will stand back out of the way and give the owner plenty of time in a hopefully neutral area to REALLY interact with their dog, before they will open their trap 
...they will often suggest specific things they want you to do with your dog when they are watching, like checking a recall, etc.....

- of course the high priced gurus don't need to do this and don't care, and will sum it up by telling you the dog needs more "focus" //lol//
.... but to me it goes way beyond "needs more OB" ... but i tend to train much slower and in smaller steps than a lot of people //lol//

anyway, you have written a few things that lead me to believe you are not interpreting your dog's past or current behavior correctly (why i gave a ref to check out which will help most everyone at your level, because i feel there are books you CAN read that are actually worth reading) 

but ANY dog i take from an owner will immediately act differently when i'm with it, so i want nothing to do with it until i have seen it with the owner from many angles :-(

my whole point, which i didn't make very clearly was that YOU need to readjust the relationship with your dog and learn to read it more accurately
- that would be step one that needs an adjustment, and that's precisely why i said it should start at home
- after that, great ... start club training, but remember that YOU are still the trainer for your dog, no matter who is assisting you along the way and doing most of the heavy lifting 

a good evaluator will be able to see where you need help in this area, between YOU and your dog, rather than just evaluating its potential in IPO or whatever sport field you took your dog to and start "working it"

good luck....i'm outa here for now and unfortunately have to deal with a very tragic and complicated dog accident and won't be reading threads for a couple weeks :-(


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

For every good trainer out there there are shit-piles of bat-shit crazy "dogpeople" who will feed you a load of crap. Unfortunately some of them are "club presidents, training directors, or "professional trainers".

I really feel for people who are tying to do something and have to wade through a whole lot of garbage. Good luck. I would not sweat things too much. It is really pretty simple, you change the rules. I would rather see someone who has let their dog get a little unruly than someone that has squashed the drive of their dog. That said you really need good guidance, I sincerely hope that you get it.

I don't think only knowing 2 commands is a bad thing. I have not spent enough time with my 9 month old GSD either. I would much rather see someone with a young dog that can sit and pay attention, than someone with a dog that half-ways knows a whole bunch of commands but can do none of them with any focus, and where none of them are secure.


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## Jag Scott (Feb 3, 2013)

Rick-thanks for your clarification. The book is on my list of things to do! Yes, I know that I'm the one responsible for training with or without help. When it was clear he was 'being a brat' because I'd not taught him what I *DID* expect, instead of just handling it myself I looked for help. In part because I didn't want to mess up his working potential and drive. You nailed exactly what happened, too. We walked in the room, stood for a minute, then she was restraining my dog. Since she'd said it was to 'calm him' from being wandering and whining (it was a new building to him, lots of things to go see, sniff, and her dog was crated at the back of the room) I was interested to see what the 'calming thing' was about. He's always been a high energy dog, and always vocal-just not barking. I'm sorry about your dog accident. I hope all comes out OK.

The rules have already begun to change on him, and he's been responding well. However, I still doubt at this point that a class environment is going to work for him right now. We do focus work every day. That's improving, too. I'm encouraged with it because he's smart, and many times a vocal correction will get him back on track. Getting him to realize there's a time for play and being a whirling dervish and there are times to work and listen and think looks like our biggest challenge right now. That's part of what we're working on, as well. Thanks for your posts!


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