# Tried it today



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

and loved it. 13 of our cllub dogs went to a farm today and tried herding. It amaized me to see such natural abilities come to the front. Even in 4-5-6 month old pups. 
Of course I was very proud of my two. Trooper (12 1/2 months) worked the fence like he knew what he was doing. Headed when necessary and contained them. A little to much leg nipping for my liking but the people in the know said that was not a problem for a GSD and could easily be worked out.
Thunder (did I say I love this dog?) looked like he had been doing it his whole life. Almost as soon as we entered he was working the fence (circular pens). the lady doing the testing for us told me to drop the lead and move to the center of the pen. From there all my movement was by her direction. Thunder easily moved in and took them off the fence with nothing more, for the most part, with body checks and butting them with his muzzle. I thought "what a puss!  Then one ewe refused to turn he pulled along side here and with all the instincts of a natural HGH dog he gripped her by the withers and turned he back. 
It was amazing enough at this point but he then move all the sheep right to me in the center of the ring. He circled a few times to contain them and stopped on the outside with a "Is this where ya want em?" look on his face. I think I got sheep shit all over my chin when my jaw dropped! :lol: 
One pup, Ax and one dog, Doc are bred by Trish Cambell here on the forum. 
Trish! You are definately doing it right! The pup Ax is only 4-5 months old and did a beautiful job of driving, heading and containing. The sheep tried a bit of stomping to scare of this little upstart but all Ax did was step in a bit closer. They quit stomping immediately. :lol:
Doc! What can I say!! I call Doc our club Kamikazi. He has a joy, "no fear" attidude and power to spare that you seldom see in a dog. I think when he enterd the ring the sheep said "When and where do you want us? 
Fast and powerful without the need for excess mouthing. I think Doc's best will only be seen when he's turned out on some really nasty range cattle. Old Yeller, look out!! :lol: :lol:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Sounds like a great time Bob! Kinda makes me wanna see what my dogs can do.

Cujo tried herding the cattle in my back yard. lil shit crawled under the barb wire and ran into the cow field barking at a giant cow :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Enjoyed reading this. Great to hear of GSDs herding. Here, we have only BCs at HGH trials. 

Some shepherds travel through our area with large sheep herds but usually use Bergamaskers, although there are a number of such in Germany with GSDs.

My Landseer pup once rounded up a small herd of sheep and saw they got "safely" home 

Seems like herding is "doing what comes naturally" though often unwanted.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

It's a load of fun for sure. Great mental and physical exercise for the dog as well. I bet the dogs slept well last night eh?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I think them Triton dogs can do just about anything I hope to have mine cutting grass very soon\\/Sounds like you all had a great time


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> It's a load of fun for sure. Great mental and physical exercise for the dog as well. I bet the dogs slept well last night eh?


holy crap did they ever! I work with Bob in our club and went out to try my dogs as well...Bob did fail to mention that Thunder was by far the best dog there! It's always fun to watch the dogs as they try to figure out what exactly we want them to do. I brought out my 3 and gave it a shot...
Mauser (my 5 1/2 month old GSD) did much better than I expected, nothing phased him, as the lady running he show said, "he can count" he did his best to keep the sheep together and had no problem getting up close and personal.
Jack (my 14 month old APBT) really surprised me, I didn't have any idea what he would do but he was very thoughtful, he did his best to keep the sheep together, he even did what the lady running the show called "opening the door" by backing up to allow the sheep to maintain their position.
Aridan (my 7 year old GSD) had an absolute blast. She went into the pen unsure of what to do, and had that "mother may I?" look on her face, but once she understood that it was ok to work the sheep she dove right in and did her best to keep the little herd together.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So I am curious, what exactly do you do when you start herding with a dog thats never done it?

Unclip the leash and say "go have fun boy!!" ?? Is there any direction and obedience required? Hows it work?

I know about as much about herding sheep as I do about the sheep next door -- they go bah


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Cujo tried herding the cattle in my back yard. lil shit crawled under the barb wire and ran into the cow field barking at a giant cow :lol:


Oh my god would that be the giant cow the helper had to catch that Jeff mentioned long ago?:-\" :-\" :lol:

Bob, it sounds like everyone had a great time. It's very cool that your dogs took to the work like that - way to go "Big T" and "Little T"


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So I am curious, what exactly do you do when you start herding with a dog thats never done it?
> 
> Unclip the leash and say "go have fun boy!!" ?? Is there any direction and obedience required? Hows it work?
> 
> I know about as much about herding sheep as I do about the sheep next door -- they go bah


Lots of direction and obedience Mike. You wouldn't be letting a dog into a ring with sheep without some equipment and guidelines. 

Basically the dogs will get a (herding instinct certificate) which involves basically putting the dog in the ring with 4-5 sheep. Here is a good overview if a HIC .. http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0184.htm on what to expect this also has some references to GSDs and other herding breeds outside of BCs. 

The equipment that was used when we did our HIC was a long line with her prong and a leaf rake to get in between her and the mutton. 

We did a lot of walking backwards around the pen, the sheep stick close to the human and the dog moves back and forth from the rear of the sheep keeping them moving towards the handler. The HIC evaluator will be behind the dog and correct the dog if they grip the sheep with the rake by sticking it in between or by stepping on the long line. That is if you can't control the k9 with your voice only to be teeth off. 

It really is a lot of fun and really hard mentally and physically on the dogs. To me it is a great thing to complement our French Ringsport training. A dog that has a solid recall and is under good control otherwise is a good candidate to try with sheep. Sheep herding works really well with positive reinforcement but instead of a decoy as a reward the dog gets to round up sheep. It is win win for the dog especially a dog that was originally used to move livestock, they love it.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

This is a video of Havok's first introduction to sheep. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXaE6b7kJ2s

There is definitely some direction/control otherwise you may have dead sheep. You want to see if the dog will take direction (change direction when told, stop when told), if they have natural balance (they position themselves where they need to be to move the sheep where the want), if they can read the livestock (how much pressure is enough, and how much is to much), etc. Sometimes all it consists of is a handler standing with the sheep crowded around them (they aren't stupid, they know where the safest place to be is) turning in circles doing their best to keep the dog from diving in to get some mutton. Other times you are able to actually walk around in the pen and have the dog working to keep the sheep in a group, and moving. 

I have a couple of other YouTube videos that show dogs on their second or third exposure to Sheep doing the HCT test at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=malndobe+herding&search_type=


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## gisela festerling (Sep 30, 2007)

Watch out - herding is very addictive! Especially when your dogs like it!!:lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Awww, Bob, you gotta tell me when you guys do something fun like this so I can tag along.  Sounds like great fun!


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## Leslie Patterson (Mar 6, 2008)

I have done some herding with my dogs. I like it too!!
I wish there were herding clubs around here.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

How cool! It's very fun, isn't it? I'm glad Thunder did so well and you all had such a great time. Great to hear on Doc and Axe-thank you I think it's so neat to watch the natural instincts kick in. The last HIC I went to, I took my 7.5 month old pup and an almost 2 yr old male. Only GSD's there-think there were over 20 dogs. Mine were the only ones who just got it right away-acted like they had done it forever. I stood outside the gait and they did it all. I wish there were more places to train, more time, and more money to pursue it more  
Did Steve take pics?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The lady that directed us made quick decissions on which dogs could be let go of. Only a couple that seemed to "enthuastic".
Trish, Steve and Jen's hubby Dave both took lots pics. Patiently wating for the web site to be updated. 
I'll sure holler! :wink: 
One thing all of us were very proud of was the voice control we had on our dogs. No yelling. Simple "easy" Wait" etc. 
The lady was offering it because she's looking for a good GSD for herding and she wanted to see our dogs in action. The lady that owned the sheep was a bit concerned initally about "Schutzhund dogs" doing sheep work. 
When the herding was over we did a obedience and a bite demo in a field with cattle less then 50 yrds from us. They all did fantastic!
I also did a search demo with Thunder. I hadn't done it in a very long time but (of course :grin: ) he did a great job of finding my car keys in the field. Worked the ground/air with his nose and zeroed in on the keys. Gave one foot tap and then a down right next to them. 
The woman who owned the sheep and farm said she had never tested a group of dogs that had so many excellent results.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob sound cool. Did you get photos of the event?


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So I am curious, what exactly do you do when you start herding with a dog thats never done it?
> 
> Unclip the leash and say "go have fun boy!!" ?? Is there any direction and obedience required? Hows it work?
> 
> I know about as much about herding sheep as I do about the sheep next door -- they go bah


IME, there is an experienced handler in the pen with the dog, the owner may be in the pen or not, depending on how well they stay out of the way and depending on if the dog is looking for them. If the owner is in the pen, they typically shadow the experienced handler.

Sometimes the dog is dragging a light long line, and the handler has some sort of stick or rake that can be used to block the dog if he gets overly eager.

Bob, I'm very jealous. I've done a small amount of herding training, loved it, can't afford it right now.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have also went into the ring and while I was a complete idiot, the dogs were pretty good. Haven't tried it with Buko, but maybe someday...........or not.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, as the tester forthe RWDC dogs, I was major excited over what the dogs showed. Basically, all I'm looking for when I test a dog is that he has the instinctive desire to group his stock and sustained interest. I like a dog that can and will work all day since I started out training dogs to manage livestock on a 40 acre farm. I basically used a long line with no stock stick and the dogs wore buckle collars or harnesses. The dogs were all consistent in that they showed that instinct for keeping stock grouped and preventing escape. There was a lot of natural talent. You had dogs like Doc, Thunder and Trooper that would respond to my voice command and praise while in very high drive. Put a distance command on any of these dogs and you will be in business. Thunder of course is that total mature package and JUDGEMENT and ability to guage his pressure to what is needed to get the job done. He would be the easier trial dog because the stock will trust him more. In a blink, he had the sheep collected and delivered to Bob who suddenly couldn't move with sheep squashed up to him. When Thunder circled too tight and one sheep decided to split, he took his head and pushed him back to the group. I've trained two dogs similar to Doc--power and control to burn. The only down side to his type is that trial sheep will be leaping the fence in terror before you send him.<vbg>. But I bet with a little experience, he would learn to tone it down a tad--mine eventually did. Trooper---what a FUN dog. Again, a dog that responds to voice command while in very high drive and loving it. Good sense of group and naturally circles to fetch his livestock to the handler and contain them. He had a nibble or two but not as prey but as in controlling his stock. Then there was the one I can't quit thinking about--Raph.He had a mental pressure exchange with the sheep that would rival a good BC. For you herders out there---this is a natural rate dog that used mind and eye for control instead of body. He stood nearly nose to nose, never moving a foot and you could feel him increase the mental pressure/eye until the heads turned and then the sheep moved off. He's also the dog that went through the sheep and the fence and fetched them across the pen to me and his handler at a calm pace. Like the others, I would love to see this dog developed. The babies of the group were Mauser and Axe. Mauser reminded me more of my bouvier bitch as a puppy--lots of PREY and that cocky confidence I love, yet also demonstrating that sense of group and preventing escape. We also had Whiskey who is in the 9-10 month range that reminded me of Doc, except that he was too young for Doc's handler responsiveness--but the same power freight train. Axe went to work immediately and knows where the pressure bubble [showing an ability to read and analyze] is and had a good sense of keeping the stock grouped and wasn't going to back off a challenge. VERY nice puppy. Since I'm studying dogs/lines because I'll need a GSD bitch puppy soon, I was major excited---so much depth.

There were no stock killers in the GSDs, at all. Even Mr. Hardnosed Doc is not going to bite down unless he has too. He and Thunder both will take it to the mattresses if they have to but like a typical GSD, acknowledge that they are god, and all is well. 

Although I have Pembroke Welsh Corgis and a Bouvier des Flandres, GSDs are my #1 breed. I trial in AKC, ASCA and AHBA. Since I've found the RWDC club, I'm looking for a GSD bitch puppy that will be able to do both schutzhund and herding. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita, thanks for the excellent explinations of all our dogs. Comming from someone that knows what they are talking about it sounds so much more impressive then my "WOW, my dogs really liked herding"! 
We WILL be back. Them titles ya know! :grin: :wink:


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Thanks for the compliments Terrasita! We had a blast and would come play with sheep again in a heartbeat! :-D


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Caution! Herding may be hazardous and habit forming...\\/


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob, we won't hold your ho'ish tendencies against you. You already have what it took me years to get--the ability to read and understand the mental interaction between the dog and the stock. Lynsey, I had a blast. I've had times where I've tested 30-40 dogs and really only thought 4-5 could go on for serious training. It was great to have such a nice field of dogs to study and Jack was really interesting ---lots of eye and control at the head and picked up on the driving and how to back up on his own to release pressure to get forward movement of the stock. But, Bob, just so you know, no baby titles allowed for Thunder. Early on watching Thunder, I decided he was the package dog I wanted to test and he was exactly what I thought he would be. I figure we are going to see more of Thunder and Lynsey's Aridan after they get their IIIs, since you two love those letters. Besides, there are wayyyyy too many women in herding. We need some brawn for post pounding--not that I'm sexist or anything. Now someone motivate me for tracking. I bought my cute little multi colored flags over a month ago and I still haven't stuck any of them in the ground.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Brawn for post pounding". 
:-o BRAWN!!.....8-[ .....yea........YEAH........brawn!.......That's me! :lol: :lol: 
For those on the forum that don't know Lynsey's dog Jack, Jack is a APBT. He was a blast to watch!
No baby titles? Don'tcha have to work your way up on the herding titles? 
Terrasita, I think we are going to be tracking at the sod farm the Saturday that the Boy Scouts have our field.
Ya better be there! :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terasitta said
"Bob, we won't hold your ho'ish tendencies against you. You already have what it took me years to get--the ability to read and understand the mental interaction between the dog and the stock."


The ability to read dogs is something I think I've always had naturally. 
Reading sheep, however, is a lot harder. 
SOOOOO many rejections before I got that figured out. :-o :-# Did I say that with my outloud voice? :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Reading sheep, however, is a lot harder.
> SOOOOO many rejections before I got that figured out. :-o :-# Did I say that with my outloud voice? :lol: :lol: :wink:


OMG...:-o I am *SOOOO *not going there Bob! [-(


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> OMG...:-o I am *SOOOO *not going there Bob! [-(


 
:-D  My sense of humor can often go off in strange directions. 
Really......I'm just a nice old granpa! :-D :-D :-D :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'll just skip the boy humor and address your other ho'ish tendencies----yeah, titles.  Stay focused. In AKC and AHBA you do not have to work your way up like the AKC obedience programs. The AKC titles are HT, PT [test level], HS, HI, HX [trial levels]. You need two legs for the test levels and three legs for the trial levels. My GSD currently has 2 legs at the HX level. We won't get into our mutual hatred of AKC A Course. I generally start a dog at the HS level. AKC has an instinct test level but none of the clubs fool with it. Besides if you can get two legs at the instinct test level, you can get an HT. If you're into quickies <vbg>, I bet you and Thunder can rap up the HT with a couple of sessions of training. But assuming you'll become addicted like the rest of us, I'd set my sights at the HS title. My favorite program is the American Herding Breeds Association [AHBA]. Since I'm not into paw step robotics and obedience placement, my guys do best in theAHBA ranch dog and arena course trials. AHBA has arena courses [HTAD], open field courses [HTD] and ranch courses [HRD]. Their test levels are instinct testing and JHD. You need two legs for each title level [started, intermediate and advanced] and you can start anywhere. The other program is the Australian Shepherd Club of America [ASCA]. With ASCA you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. For each stock [sheep, ducks, cattle], you have started, intermediate and advanced. 

Terrasita


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Reading sheep, however, is a lot harder.
> SOOOOO many rejections before I got that figured out. Did I say that with my outloud voice?





Will Kline said:


> OMG...:-o I am *SOOOO *not going there Bob! [-(


I will .. Bob's new theme song .. :mrgreen: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR6N-O6A1ss


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

WOW! :-o 

Bob....say it isn't so! :-$ 

Geoff...Scares me a bit to think that you knew where to find such a thing! 8-[


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'll just skip the boy humor and address your other ho'ish tendencies----yeah, titles. Stay focused. In AKC and AHBA you do not have to work your way up like the AKC obedience programs. The AKC titles are HT, PT [test level], HS, HI, HX [trial levels]. You need two legs for the test levels and three legs for the trial levels. My GSD currently has 2 legs at the HX level. We won't get into our mutual hatred of AKC A Course. I generally start a dog at the HS level. AKC has an instinct test level but none of the clubs fool with it. Besides if you can get two legs at the instinct test level, you can get an HT. If you're into quickies <vbg>, I bet you and Thunder can rap up the HT with a couple of sessions of training. But assuming you'll become addicted like the rest of us, I'd set my sights at the HS title. My favorite program is the American Herding Breeds Association [AHBA]. Since I'm not into paw step robotics and obedience placement, my guys do best in theAHBA ranch dog and arena course trials. AHBA has arena courses [HTAD], open field courses [HTD] and ranch courses [HRD]. Their test levels are instinct testing and JHD. You need two legs for each title level [started, intermediate and advanced] and you can start anywhere. The other program is the Australian Shepherd Club of America [ASCA]. With ASCA you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. For each stock [sheep, ducks, cattle], you have started, intermediate and advanced.
> 
> Terrasita


I really do want to do this. In spite of my "desire" for titles, I'd rather do it correctly then get cheap titles "cause I passed a test". 
I will follow your lead on procedure! 

Geoff, that's just plain wrong in soooo many ways! :lol: :lol: 
In particular what Will said. I don't think I wanna know how you found that.....song. :-o :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hah, its only because you and Thunder are waaaayyyy ahead of the game. When I started, I couldn't walk backwards---huge handicap in herding. Actually, I always tell folks that it doesn't hurt to move up through the ranks with your first dog. I think the problem is that in the past we were only training forthe title or level in front of us. NOW we start from day one training for the advanced levels. We don't let bad habits develop or things go by because the dog is only running in the test classes or started. Besides, I have to also think of it from the handler point of view. I'll just count on you becoming as addicted asthe rest of us and you won't want to stop with the test classes. I'm actually thinking of running my bouv this fall and in the test classes. I figure it will be low pressure and the judges will know that she just LOOKS like she is in dinner mode. Its a smaller area and I can relax and not worry about being such a control freak. When I'm comfy that I can turn down some of her predator speed and intensity on the outrun, I"ll run her in the trial classes, and probably advanced. I'm in the process of trying to set up some training time with a club member that has woolies. Khira is just the age for crossing over into maturity and if I can finish her training on woolies and then go back to the flightier hair sheep, I think she's going to be the best dog I've trained.

Meanwhile, I'll be there on Saturday but after 4 days of running around the east coast for work, I won't have a clue about which way the wind is blowing. So watch me and make sure I get the whole tracking scenario set up right for Khaiba. I have zero since of direction which is why my GOOD herding dogs know when to disregard one of my wrong flank commands and go the way that will best accomplish the job.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hah, its only because you and Thunder are waaaayyyy ahead of the game. When I started, I couldn't walk backwards---huge handicap in herding. Actually, I always tell folks that it doesn't hurt to move up through the ranks with your first dog. I think the problem is that in the past we were only training forthe title or level in front of us. NOW we start from day one training for the advanced levels. We don't let bad habits develop or things go by because the dog is only running in the test classes or started. Besides, I have to also think of it from the handler point of view. I'll just count on you becoming as addicted asthe rest of us and you won't want to stop with the test classes. I'm actually thinking of running my bouv this fall and in the test classes. I figure it will be low pressure and the judges will know that she just LOOKS like she is in dinner mode. Its a smaller area and I can relax and not worry about being such a control freak. When I'm comfy that I can turn down some of her predator speed and intensity on the outrun, I"ll run her in the trial classes, and probably advanced. I'm in the process of trying to set up some training time with a club member that has woolies. Khira is just the age for crossing over into maturity and if I can finish her training on woolies and then go back to the flightier hair sheep, I think she's going to be the best dog I've trained.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'll be there on Saturday but after 4 days of running around the east coast for work, I won't have a clue about which way the wind is blowing. So watch me and make sure I get the whole tracking scenario set up right for Khaiba. I have zero since of direction which is why my GOOD herding dogs know when to disregard one of my wrong flank commands and go the way that will best accomplish the job.
> 
> Terrasita


Kinda like Schutzhund. Train for the III and get the I and the II on the way.
It will probably be posted on the club chat site but tracking will be at 9 am Saturday at the sod farm. 
I gotta learn that gee and haw stuff.......Oh wait!.........Never mind!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I really do want to do this. In spite of my "desire" for titles, I'd rather do it correctly then get cheap titles "cause I passed a test".
> I will follow your lead on procedure!
> 
> Geoff, that's just plain wrong in soooo many ways! :lol: :lol:
> In particular what Will said. I don't think I wanna know how you found that.....song. :-o :lol:


Sounds like you and Terassita are going to compliment each others training skills and backgrounds nicely Bob. I'd follow the program and not really worry about HICs and the like and just start training towards HGH or HCH as it sounds like Thunder has the natural ability and want to do just that. Let him do what comes naturally I can't see how your team could fail at it. 

Now that we have our Brevet I'm heading back to the farm myself. I think herding compliments any shepherd type of dog especially a bite trained dog. There is a lot more self control on the dog and it just gets you an even more balanced dog with the totally different training. 

Dirty Deeds done with Sheep ... indeed!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yep, its why I was trying to turn my bouv on to tug toys. I was hoping to get her to turn on to bite work training. I think the control in drive, that it builds would transfer to the herding setting. Unfortunately she has had years of keep the prey drive under control and in the setting of live prey so I only get spurts. As a young dog she had the most prey drive I've ever had in a dog. But she's also used to working with live animals so doesn't get that much satisfaction from toys. But its not he r fault I didn't develop the toy/play drive. 

Terrasita


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Exactly, my Mal when we go onto the pasture we have to run the gauntlet of the flock which includes numerous goats as well to get to the training field. So anytime she starts to make a go at a goat or a sheep we stop and don't move until she settles. She will be in a sit and just vibrates from the drive it is pretty funny to watch. She was only a little grippy before we had started bite work. Now that she knows that it is 2 different games she works the sheep like a champ or will chase down a decoy with the same amount of energy for both tasks. 

It's a joyous thing to watch! No wonder both disciplines are so addictive!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Unfortunately the HGH trainers in this area are non existant from what I gather. The AKC class C herding is supposed to be the HGH but that's kind of a joke since they only use 20 or so sheep. 
A good test for an HGH dog is no less then 200 sheep. 
I'll happily gather them wollies with my dog. It's still a good test of what a GSD should/could be.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

To really learn HGH, I think you would have to go hang out with Ulf Kinzel in the northeast. AKC C Course doesn't do anything for me unless they could use the maximum number. The trouble is its so expensive to do a C Course trial with so many sheep from a club point of view. Sandra and I were trying to put together a clinic for a long time--not enough interest to make it financially feasible. The largest flocks I've worked are 130 or so which is NICE. 20 head of sheep doesn't compare. I like to train with 20-30 head--especially new dog broke lambs. If the dog gets too pushy, I don't have 200 pounders coming dead at me. For a long time I was interested in HGH due to the history of the breed but hate all the tending wars regarding the french continental vs. HGH and whether the tending dog should also be a natural circling dog, etc. GSDs are versatile enough to do it all. Until a dog with power and presence learns to harness it, large flock work and learning through chores is really good for them; otherwise, you're just cranking them down. AHBA has large flock courses in its ranch program and the course designer can incorporate tending.

Everyone in this part of the country keeps hair sheep--no shearing. I finally got a hold of the woman with the woolies today and she has scaled down to 20+ breeding ewes. Her dogs are ancient and she hasn't worked them much. Then of course she wants to charge me a fortune<vbg> and I'd have to dog break them. Not quite what I had in mind. I may just have to dog break a set of good goats and work from there.

Terrasita


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

2 of my friends went to work with Ulf and say he is a guy with an amazing amount of dog sense and savvy, and if you get a chance to work with him. DO IT! 

They worked with in between 200 to 300 sheep on the weekend they went. But unfortunately it is 8 hours one way to Ulf's place across the border. He only accepts students who can do a minimum of 2 weekends a month and prefers weekly for best results especially if you want to trial the HGH. So with the drive and having to rent a hotel room etc it can become a very expensive proposition. 

I totally agree that any of the tending breeds GSD, Malinois, Beauceron should be worked on as many sheep as possible. As they then become very focused on the whole flock and are not acting neurotic with only 4 sheep. They are not Border Collies so why work them like sheep trial BCs? Especially if you are going to use a dog as a farm dog or the like. Working a tending dog on only 4 sheep is unnatural for them from the get go, they wouldn't do it in real farm work either. It is probably less stressful for the dog to work a flock not small groups or individual sheep IMO.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yep, its why I was trying to turn my bouv on to tug toys. I was hoping to get her to turn on to bite work training. I think the control in drive, that it builds would transfer to the herding setting. Unfortunately she has had years of keep the prey drive under control and in the setting of live prey so I only get spurts. As a young dog she had the most prey drive I've ever had in a dog. But she's also used to working with live animals so doesn't get that much satisfaction from toys. But its not he r fault I didn't develop the toy/play drive.
> 
> Terrasita


Have you introduced her to Bob's club Pakwerker? Sometimes a dog where the drive has been suppressed needs something else outside of it's owner to bring out that drive to bite. That's where an experienced pakwerker should be involved. He will have to bring out the drive slowly using a tug on a rope and bringing up the drive with a plan in mind. Especially knowing her background. It's not impossible but it will have to be approached very carefully in the beginning.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I took her out once. He had a tug on a line just as you described and her ears perked up and she took a step forward and then it was like, hhhhmmmmm, nope, not supposed to do the prey drive thing. She then stood there and wagged her tail at us like yeahhh, right, you're not going to suck me in. Since then I've been trying to rekindle it with me. She started out with not tugging with me at all now she'll play with me in spurts. Its not as sustained as I see the other dogs. I also rigged a toy on a line and she really got into drive. The trouble is, try the same set up the next day and her attitude seems to be, uhhhhh, that's old news. She would really prefer to bite my arm once I get her into drive instead of a toy. As a puppy she was very much lunge for a full body bite. I've thought about buying a puppy sleeve and just playing with her but everyone frowns on that.

When we were at the working bouv championship last year, I stood off to the side and let her watch the helper work a dog and she turned her head back and forth watching the helper and the dog analyzing it and then it was like, okay, its no big deal. She's very confident and with good pack drive. If you're into the puppy test, I came down just a tad on dominance in picking her. So Ifigure I'm only going to get so much tugging with me due to the leadership training--especially with all the livestock training.

Terrasita


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

So they are a little late in coming...but here is a link to some pics of our herding day!

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/herding-7985/#post76614


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