# Geefacker lines?



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

What do the GSD gurus know about these lines? What do they bring to the table. One of the dogs Im looking at has a Geefacker mother line. I liked him but opinions on his pedigree would help.

Cant find the dam but here are the dams parents.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=543439
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=548330


And Ill just throw in the sire for good measure.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=650289


The breeder is Canadian and seems to breed a lot of dogs for LEO and service work.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Who is the breeder?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Sorry should have mentioned it Carms Pack German Shepherds.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Good luck, please let me know what you find out.

I asked here before got very little info.

A close freind of mine used a Geefacker Male, that dog was old as hell and still through some pups, he was a super solid dog, but untrained, super hard full bite, great nerves... DOgs name was Santos vom Geefacker, out of Pius and Qeen, a black dog...

here is pedigree of his dogs from that litter

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=739384&mother=543011

both dogs were fairly old,got 3 pups... dogs are really nice...he is super happy with what he got.


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

Carmspack spends a lot of time on a GSD forum. Maybe you can go over there and see what you think.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Elaine Matthys said:


> Carmspack spends a lot of time on a GSD forum. Maybe you can go over there and see what you think.


I have talked to Carmen and have seen the dog. I just wanted to see if anyone else had experience with the Geefacker line. As I already said I liked him..quite a bit actually.
Thanks for the info Joby breeding for stability is one the breeders main focuses which is what drew me to look at the dog in the first place. Its nice to hear the pups turned out well. It seems like quite an insular blood line from my very limited knowledge and little known.


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## Cassandra Lane (Jul 2, 2010)

I wouldn't hesitate on _any _carmspack pup. JMO.
I am a member of the GSD forum and she is exceedingly helpful, knowledgeable and insightful.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Cassandra Lane said:


> I wouldn't hesitate on _any _carmspack pup. JMO.
> I am a member of the GSD forum and she is exceedingly helpful, knowledgeable and insightful.




What has she ever done? She doesn't train her own dogs. The only people that I have ever met that have any respect for her only know her from the internet.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

there was a girl named Sanda something or other that posted on here in the past, a German girl, that I think moved to the states, she PM'd me some info on the lines, but I admit it did get deleted with all my other messages.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> there was a girl named Sanda something or other that posted on here in the past, a German girl, that I think moved to the states, she PM'd me some info on the lines, but I admit it did get deleted with all my other messages.


Yes, Joby, I was thinking of Sandra as well. Her father bred GSDs in Germany and I believe this was one of the lines that he liked. I've only heard positive things about Carmspack dogs and have followed some of her posts on GSDOnline/.

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yes, Joby, I was thinking of Sandra as well. Her father bred GSDs in Germany and I believe this was one of the lines that he liked. I've only heard positive things about Carmspack dogs and have followed some of her posts on GSDOnline/.
> 
> T


As far as I know she does not currently compete in sport though I know she used to do Ring. Like I said though I saw the dog and he seemed to have decent drive and a stable temperment. Smaller male but well built. I liked him. Also, liked the other dogs that were there. There is a women in my local area that does IPO with one of her dogs that has nothing but good things to say about the dog in its work and at home.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

It was Sandra King. See this thread: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f28/geefacker-20959/


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

There are some old posts on Geefacker lines on GSD Euro.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> There are some old posts on Geefacker lines on GSD Euro.


yahoo group?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> yahoo group?


 Yes, that is the one. You would have to search the forum but that is easy - looks like 2004-2006 for replies.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Well the little I have heard on here seems fairly in line with what the breeder tells me about them. Super stable line that brings working ability. I believe she imported the dams parents.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> What has she ever done? She doesn't train her own dogs. The only people that I have ever met that have any respect for her only know her from the internet.


I wonder why people do not see this and buy pups based on internet researches and opinions. Gotta say something about sales tactics and suckers.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I did talk with Carmen about two years ago when I was looking for a young adult. She did seem very knowledgeable but, being in the states, I did not have the references to give me a lot of comfort in the choice, nor did I get enough information about the dog I was interested in other than assurences it was what I needed. There just are not that many of her dogs in the states.........

A passport (which I don't have) and a ticket to Canada to check out the dog was more than I wanted to do so I moved on.

You, however, can check out her dogs personally, talk with folks who have her dogs directly, etc. and that is what I would be doing. You (Haz) are also in Ontario, so........?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Have talked to folks with her dogs, and they said good things. I have seen the dogs and liked the ones I saw. May go see the male again. Could i be out to lunch? Perhaps..lol, i like what i see so far, but what do i know? Dog seems stable, nice size showed decent play and retrieve drive. They all seemed like that from what i saw.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Haz....when you say retrieve drive do you mean ball tossing that they will fly out at least 30-40yds, grab, bring fly back and drop in front of you, or ball tossing where they can't see it land have to spend time finding it first ?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I know the guy she has raising her prospects is mike clay who is mclaymann on youtube.

There were just a few when I was looking but there are a LOT of a dog called Nick. I don't know whether or not the videos give much insight or not....one of the things I had requested was videos when they were showing me "gage" but that was not enough to show me the drives I wanted to see. 

I have heard her dogs have very nice biddable temperaments (though they can be civil-but I know nothing about bitework so have no way to honestly assess) and she breeds heavily for "genetic obedience" ... I was concerned about the level of obsessive hunt drive that I wanted.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "I was concerned about the level of obsessive hunt drive that I wanted."

which is why i asked 

i would not judge a dog based on their "drive" to retrieve tossed objects .... unless of course they grabbed it and ran off in another direction to hunker down and shred it //lol//
...didn't think the OP was looking for a bird dog


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

And that is why I would take someone who really knows what to look for and do those things to evaluate the pup/dog

And hunt drive may not be important for what you are doing..there are a lot of dogs who do sport I think for whom when the ball goes in the heavy brush it may as well have landed on another planet. Yet they can still do schutzhund very well.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Please tell me I'm not the only GSD owner who doesn't believe in "genetic obedience." I mean seriously, it's not real.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith;375899
i would not judge a dog based on their "drive" to retrieve tossed objects .... unless of course they grabbed it and ran off in another direction to hunker down and shred it //lol//
...didn't think the OP was looking for a bird dog[/QUOTE said:


> how would you judge a pup or young dog that did that?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby...
which one are you asking about :
the ball retriever or the snatch and shred ?

the ball retriever wouldn't impress me that much (for the kind of dogs i like)
the snatch and shredder would definitely get further consideration

- but neither would be a pass/fail deal breaker; just one behavior to look at

why did you ask me...? i'm not the OP //lol//
- did you think i felt a dog who would retrieve and hunker down to shred his prize was a no good dog ?? i've see a lot of dogs do just that, haven't you ??

so how do you feel about how the OP description of what he saw and what he liked, etc ? 

fwiw, "I" was just trying to find out what "retrieving" test the OP did that he liked and then went on to point out what i liked and didn't. there are a LOT of different ways a dog can react to this type of "retrieval drive testing", and the OP wasn't clear. just like there are many ways to test "ball drive" 
- hard to get a mental image if there are no details and there rarely are in these kind of posts

and since someone pointed out a dog could look at a tossed ball and do nothing, maybe all testing is relatively worthless
- but i do get tired of hearing about all the exceptions to every rule ......

i'm not trying to promote my testing, i'm trying to stay on topic.
i could care less about Geefacker lines .... actually it's just a funny sounding word to me, but i guess the original "Geefacker" was a great breeder
- but i AM always interested to see how people check out a potential dog they might spend a grand or more to buy
- i'm not trying to be a pot stirrer or a comedian. if i got something to contribute i do, but try not to make it change the direction of the thread

- i have zero knowledge of the line and only spoke up when he was talking about what impressed him

back to Geefacker 

even if they don't participate in the responses they get and then watch their thread drift off


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Joby...
> which one are you asking about :
> the ball retriever or the snatch and shred ?
> 
> ...


Rick...  Relax man, I was just curious, and I also happen to agree with you. Some people immediately cut out prospects if they do not actually retrieve things and bring them back happily to them. 

I think I provided some info in this thread to justify my small diversion..

To the OP sorry for going off topic to ask questions about picking dogs and puppies.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> Rick...  Relax man, I was just curious, and I also happen to agree with you. Some people immediately cut out prospects if they do not actually retrieve things and bring them back happily to them.
> 
> I think I provided some info in this thread to justify my small diversion..
> 
> To the OP sorry for going off topic to ask questions about picking dogs and puppies.


Hey guys sorry was out of town today. What I liked about this male was that he would retrieve the ball toy. He would also tug for it and take it off to a spot away from us and sit with it in between his legs. If I went for it he would pick it up and keep it away, he would also bring it by when called and would tug for it. He did not seem to ever get tired of it. If I held it up high he would jump for it. If it was in his reach he wouldnt stop trying to grab it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Please tell me I'm not the only GSD owner who doesn't believe in "genetic obedience." I mean seriously, it's not real.


That would be the opinion of someone that hasn't had one. I'm working an 18 month old corgi now and just called his breeder the other night to tell her that I've discovered that the reward that has higher value to him is praise from me--not food, not his tug. Aren't you on your first GSD?

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That would be the opinion of someone that hasn't had one. I'm working an 18 month old corgi now and just called his breeder the other night to tell her that I've discovered that the reward that has higher value to him is praise from me--not food, not his tug. Aren't you on your first GSD?
> 
> T


I do believe it exists though I think some people twist it into stories of "Lassie-Like" proportions, like the "bloodhound who follwed a 3 week old car trail"...I mean..... I saw bits and pieces of it in Grim who never needed a correction and worked best of all with praise but he still had plenty of drive.

Beau, OTOH, must have ingested a copy of "Civil Disobedience" among the other things he has done on his merry path to adulthood ... but he is turning out real fine even though he is a far cry from being "genetically obedient" even if he is very much an interactive eye contact kind of dog.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That would be the opinion of someone that hasn't had one. I'm working an 18 month old corgi now and just called his breeder the other night to tell her that I've discovered that the reward that has higher value to him is praise from me--not food, not his tug. Aren't you on your first GSD?
> 
> T


What is the difference between this and biddability and willingness to please?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

And yes, I am on my first (and last) GSD but I have had dogs since I was 6 years old and went with my dad to do their obedience lessons. For show and tell in Kindergarten I took the trophy our newspaper Cocker Spaniel got for being first place in the group class. 

I've also seen a lot of dogs in my life go through different types of training, and if any of them had "genetic obedience" it was above Cocker Spaniel.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> What is the difference between this and biddability and willingness to please?


 
You say you don't believe in it, yet you ask how its defined? I too have had A cocker spaniel when I was a kid and nooooo, it doesn't compare to a GSD.

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That would be the opinion of someone that hasn't had one. I'm working an 18 month old corgi now and just called his breeder the other night to tell her that I've discovered that the reward that has higher value to him is praise from me--not food, not his tug. Aren't you on your first GSD?
> 
> T


Have to agree and with nancy as well its not like there lassie and can read your mind but there propensity to learn quickly behaviours which take other dogs much longer and there ability to focus is so high and some things like holding a dumbell calmly is so natural or at least in my current crop of gsd it is  that it would "seem" to be all there from early on


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have not owned corgis, but are they puposely bred for triats that would make them have very high internal desires to possess objects and have object focused prey drive? Like most all working herders (gsd, mal, dutchie) are?

Brad that drive will make a dog clamp onto a retrieve object, and coupled with intelligence will also make a dog learn thigs very quickly.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I have not owned corgis, but are they puposely bred for triats that would make them have very high internal desires to possess objects and have object focused prey drive? Like most all working herders (gsd, mal, dutchie) are?
> 
> Brad that drive will make a dog clamp onto a retrieve object, and coupled with intelligence will also make a dog learn thigs very quickly.


 
Joby, very few corgis are purposely bred for anything. Most of my life, all I've had is GSDs. Thought the corgis would something cute and fun to have with the baby. Bouvs are really my husband's breed. I REALLY want to get back to GSDs. Will always have my corgis because quite frankly, they keep me laughing. The Schaferhaus line of corgis and some of the earlier Nebriowa dogs which share Schaferhaus lines are the ones that have the working drive. Also Larklain through Redd Dandy. All of this according to me of course. Through Schaferhaus, you can get some intense ball/object drive. I have two bitches here that are 10 generations of Sippiwisset and they have object/ball drive--also trace back to foundation Schaferhaus. That said, its not as high as a GSD and it can extinguish if you don't work it I think. With my dogs, once they start working stock, they lose interest in balls and objects--not my last GSD though. She was 9 and had never seen a tug or dumbell and went to it instantly and I couldn't believe the possession with the tug. As Brad said--its in them. Corgis are known for their independence and have even been described as "my way or the highway." My last bitch as a marker trained dog would work equally for food or pets from me as reward. Khaldi had a high social drive but wasn't doing anything unless she was paid and regularly--something her line is known for. I've been suprised to actually see this in Rhemy and he's different in that the pets from me are higher reward. Rhemy wants to know what right is. As long as he is capping his drive, that's what you will see. We'll see how it pans out. At this age [18-19 months], he's all over the place mentally.

I don't consider the corgis as intelligent as GSDs generally. In the past I said it took double the time to train my corgis than my GSDs. But that said, my 18 month old bitch Khyndra is as quick to learn as any GSD I've had. She will also seemingly forever perform a behavior if you've reinforced it. Until you've had a genetically obedient dog, then you won't believe it. I had one--Ingrid and probabaly Jessie was a close second. There was no ball, food or toy rewards. You patted them on the head and said good dog and it was done. Ingrid was the type of dog that I would call handler hard without handler aggression. She wasn't the least bit sensitive to ANYTHING. Jessie was the same. She LOVED heel position and heeled like a golden before anyone else was doing attention heels. She also had that human like intelligence that I love in GSDs that no one seems to care about anymore. She would retrieve anything 24/7. My dad never understood why anyone would use correction training on a GSD. First time he saw a choke collar on one of mine, boy did I get a tongue lashing. In his mind, you weren't a trainer if you used corrections. But he had also had hard, tough, genetically obedient dogs. 

One of the things I will test with my next litter that I whelp and any that I instinct test is Manfred Heyne's concept or selecting the genetically obedient dog. When I instinct tested Doc [adult Sch titled, high prey, high fight GSD], what was obvious the entire time was his awareness of me, connection to me and biddability. A touch on the long line as to direction and he responded. You could feel the calmness of his mind--yet very engaged. He didn't really know me and I wasn't his handler. His handler was in the pen backing me up on the long line but I was guiding him and he knew it. The only person I've ever met that understands that "connection," is a SAR person. Maybe its that reliance on the dog as your partner and you're not making them do certain things. Heyne selected the dog with over the top prey and drive that was 100% responsive to his voice. He tested this as baby puppies when he fed them and then when he instinct tested them. If it didn't have voice responsiveness, he didn't keep it. Its how he controlled his dogs at great distances when they were engaged with the stock. 

A couple of months ago, I tested a corgi litter and there was one in the litter that as she was herding, every time I said something, her tail wagged. I call it holding two lines of communication simultaneously. The two breeds I see this mostly in are GSDs and Border Collies. The corgi puppy had the most consistent engaged drive and calmness. The other puppy was high prey and high object but without the voice recognition or consistent stock engagement. 

The corgi bitches I have here, I'm not wild about their environmental adaptation abilities. But they both have a remarkability to connect in the work and intelligence which goes a long way with me. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

You have said that some sport and herding people pick dogs that they can control easier, the weaker dogs as you put it, for points, and that you dont agree with that for you, you have said that you lik a more independant and dominant dog, a dog that takes the dominance to the man or the cows, so you are looking for a dominant, hard, independent dog, that also is highly biddable, with high pack instinct and has genetic OB..

Is that fairly accurate?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> You have said that some sport and herding people pick dogs that they can control easier, the weaker dogs as you put it, for points, and that you dont agree with that for you, you have said that you lik a more independant and dominant dog, a dog that takes the dominance to the man or the cows, so you are looking for a dominant, hard, independent dog, that also is highly biddable, with high pack instinct and has genetic OB..
> 
> Is that fairly accurate?


Joby,

There is a type of dog, albeit rare at this point--maybe, that is dominant, hard, biddable/pack, but NOT handler dependent in the work. Corgis are what I call cattle-bred dogs. Generally with that, you get a more independent dog. ACDs are similar and so are bouvs. However, I'd put our first bouv Thor in that genetic obedience camp. Once he respected my husband, he would walk on water for him. For a LONG time, I didn't believe I could get the biddability in the corgis AND the power on the stock. Marker training has closed the gap on that. I feel the marker/reward dynamic is even more effective for the hard/independent dog. The bitch I have here now as a client dog did not do well with a prior trainer--correction based. Corgis don't work well with that as a rule. I've been able to do things with her that her prior agility and herding trainer didn't think possible. In high prey drive, a correction will mean NOTHING. Out of drive, too intense a correction will shut her down. So, as far as my laundry list is concerned, if the dog has the drive and power, I'll suffer the independence and deal with it. Mostly the independence is a trial issue. What I want in the real work trumps trials any day. The dog that I've worked that is the most independent and in it more for herself and what she thinks is right is my bouv--Khira. But when you think about the trials she's been in and the scores, she has been the most consistent and competitive for the points. All trial work was marker trained and she has one fatal flaw that probably only an intense correction would solve at this point having to do with prey and distance and her control freak nature. She is flawless darn near with chores and can break any stock. So my IDEAL dog, particularly considering distance work IS the more genetically obedient dog with power and hardness. 

Most people assume that if its biddable, its soft or handler sensitive/dependent. While that may be true in a lot of cases, its not necessarily so. Ingrid was my perfect dog. In 20 years, I've only seen two dogs that remind me of her. Thunder was one of them. There's a dog in Minnesota I'm watching with a LOT of interest especially after seeing his obedience in the protection phase of his training. My gut tells me, he has all the traits in a GSD that I like and want to see preserved and he comes from a well established LINE. 

My perfect stock dogs were my first GSD Asta and my first corgi Rory--nothing they couldn't do and could work any stock. Rhemy is probably as close to Rory as you could get genetically without cloning. Rory was 9 months old when I got him and 2 1/2 when I first introduced him to stock. Rory was the first dog I used marker training with and who was declared "untrainable" by other herding trainers. He was very high fight, high prey and certainly declared 100% not biddable. But I stuck it out and was able to figure it out and as he matured, I was getting the compliance I needed on the trial field unless something challenged him which is a rarity in a trial anyway. As he relates to me, my gut tells me that Rhemy cares more about pleasing me. But I got Rhemy at 12 weeks, imprinted certain things, bonded, etc. Rory had been a kennel dog for 9 months and was totally raised without consideration to managing his drive in highly stimulating environments--completely different from Rhemy. We will see. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've always felt that some dog were easier to train but one of my present GSDs made a believer out of me with the "genetic obedience" thing. He has been a compliant, thinking dog since he was 5-6 months old. 
My other GSD is very willing but even at 5 he has the attention span of a gnat. Not easy for me because the wife says I have the same problem.  ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I've always felt that some dog were easier to train but one of my present GSDs made a believer out of me with the "genetic obedience" thing. He has been a compliant, thinking dog since he was 5-6 months old.
> My other GSD is very willing but even at 5 he has the attention span of a gnat. Not easy for me because the wife says I have the same problem.  ;-)


Hahahah, some dogs mimic their owners. Did I ever tell you about the clinic exercise we did with two handlers moving the stock and they couldn't say anything to each other. All the handlers worked exactly like their dogs with all the same issues--mind boggling. I've actually said that Khira's issue is something that I probably put there. I HATE to see stock out of control.

The handler sensitive types internalize, so if you're off, they are too. The easier type dog is something like Thunder that says, "if you're going to wig out, do something useful like hold the gate."

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I've always felt that some dog were easier to train but one of my present GSDs made a believer out of me with the "genetic obedience" thing. He has been a compliant, thinking dog since he was 5-6 months old.
> My other GSD is very willing but even at 5 he has the attention span of a gnat. Not easy for me because the wife says I have the same problem.  ;-)


I too have a dog that suffered with attention issues but it only makes you a better trainer trying ways to get them to engage longer etc but once your there and seen it and been to the other side with "genetic" obedience there is no going back and i would return a pup or young dog that didnt have it as it wouldnt suit my purpose any longer and is a p.i.t.a


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

A dog from full Geefacker lines came into Australia called Filu von der Schwarzen Lagune. I never saw the dog but the guy who imported him was happy wiith him. Interesting bloodline.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=365665-filu-von-der-schwarzen-lagune

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKCKjvh2yRA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMC-hJVYhpA


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I do believe it exists though I think some people twist it into stories of "Lassie-Like" proportions, like the "bloodhound who follwed a 3 week old car trail"...I mean..... I saw bits and pieces of it in Grim who never needed a correction and worked best of all with praise but he still had plenty of drive.
> 
> Beau, OTOH, must have ingested a copy of "Civil Disobedience" among the other things he has done on his merry path to adulthood ... but he is turning out real fine even though he is a far cry from being "genetically obedient" even if he is very much an interactive eye contact kind of dog.


All my GSDs have been biddable enough, some more so than others, but certainly not a trait that I would say has been lacking in any of my dogs.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Christopher Jones said:


> A dog from full Geefacker lines came into Australia called Filu von der Schwarzen Lagune. I never saw the dog but the guy who imported him was happy wiith him. Interesting bloodline.
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=365665-filu-von-der-schwarzen-lagune
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKCKjvh2yRA
> ...


 
Interesting not much info but was is out there seems posative.


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