# "Self Deployment"



## Konnie Hein

Most of the volunteer SAR folks I talk to say that self-deployment (defined by me as a SAR team or member just showing up at a search without invitation by authorities, but can possibly include harrassing family members until they get approval to search, or whining to the media that they aren't being utilized for a search) is a big no-no. I agree. 

For those of you who are much more tied in to the wilderness SAR community, does this kind of thing happen a lot, or are the vast majority of groups against self-deployment? I know it happens in this state, and by one group in particular.

Where does your team draw the line? What is your criteria for responding? Do you wait for LE to call you or would you respond to a family's request?


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## Vi Shaffer

I respond only to call-outs by an agency. I had a family call me once (don't know how they got my number because as I said I keep a very low profile) and I advised them to call LE. I then contacted the Investigator and related that information to him. I think it can be very harmful to a case if teams just show up, or goes on independent searches, because the family called them. Only LE should be calling the shots. You never know when a missing person is going to be a homicide or have some type of foul play involoved. Chain of Custody of any evidence that may be found is crucial - and, if the scene is not checked by an Investigatorthen something may be missed. I read of one team who responded to a families request to check an area (probable homicide) without LE's knowledge. This team went even as far as getting a backhoe in to dig. Nothing was found but the entire incident ticked LE off - and I don't blame them.

In my opinion (for what its worth), self-deploying is the same as ambulance chasing. Yes...you want to provide a service but you should go about it the proper way. If a team is not contacted I don't see anything wrong with calling the Agency and advising them of your teams' capabilities. It should be their decision if they want you to deploy or not. Anything other than that is unprofessional.
God Bless


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## Bob Scott

It can be a big problem here in Missouri. You may get half a dozen wannaby teams turn up at a search site (scanner chasers) and have everything screwd up by the time a legit team is called in. 
I think this is where educating the smaller, more remote PDs is necessary. 
The State PD and the Feds are now wise to it. The smaller PDs are learning.
The best one was a "search" team that showed up with their own "mystic" or whatever you want to call them. This gal told the "team" where to use the dogs. ](*,)


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## Konnie Hein

Jeez, Bob, you're kidding, right?? (please say yes!)

I don't feel so bad then about what occurs here in CT.


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## Bob Scott

Cross my heart......unfortunately!


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## Vi Shaffer

Oh... they are among us! There was a search were a self-deployed team even set up their own Base Camp. Their's was the first one the folks and other Handlers would come to as the real Base Camp was further up the road! They had started fielding some teams but their actions were learned rather quickly and they were told to leave. Makes you wonder what on earth these people think?!


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## Konnie Hein

It is crazy. What prompted me to ask the question was that a couple of folks from a volunteer wilderness SAR group showed up without invitation to the explosion on Sunday. They somehow made it past the police blockade, and later were escorted by police off the site when authorities realized they had no business being there. These same folks hopped in their cars on 9/11 and headed down to the WTC too. I am amazed that people with little to no training for such a situation would put their lives in danger. 

Is it ego or ?


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## Nancy Jocoy

We are in the big "nono" camp as well but have seen it happen, fortunately we are seeing these folks turned away more and more frequently as the relationships of various teams in the state are more tightly developed.

There have been some doozies.


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## Michele Fleury

Here in Maine, our team requires a request from the LE agency in charge of the search in order to respond. This has always been our SOP. Many years ago, other folks would just show up with their dogs and would get deployed occasionally. For the past several years now, the agency in charge of all wilderness SAR will only call/deploy teams that are certified/qualified, so we don't get much of that any more. We also have the unique situation of being the only volunteer K9 SAR team in the state. Others have existed in the past and have tried, but couldn't / wouldn't meet the state certification standards.


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## Geoff Empey

Konnie Hein said:


> Is it ego or ?


Stupidity? .. 

I bet they were all up in arms when they were told to leave as well. Some people do need a swift boot to the gonads.


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## will fernandez

Konnie Hein said:


> It is crazy. What prompted me to ask the question was that a couple of folks from a volunteer wilderness SAR group showed up without invitation to the explosion on Sunday. They somehow made it past the police blockade, and later were escorted by police off the site when authorities realized they had no business being there. These same folks hopped in their cars on 9/11 and headed down to the WTC too. I am amazed that people with little to no training for such a situation would put their lives in danger.
> 
> Is it ego or ?


I honestly believe its a form of mental illness.


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## Konnie Hein

You're probably right.


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## Nancy Jocoy

It is frustrating when you see something on the news and these folks show up. Mecklenburg county in NC has a long standing aversion to using volunteers of any type but a few years ago a young man went missing and the hordes overwhelemed them into a "yall come" search two weeks after he went missing.........................

It was so embarrasing to see someone claim they picked up a two week old urban trail on TV. I am sure THAT will open up a lot of doors with the county in the future..........

The HR world is full of people who seek out family members and go to prisons to conduct their own interviews.........


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## will fernandez

Nancy

Have you ever worked/trained with a team down by hilton head and beaufort?


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## Nancy Jocoy

will fernandez said:


> Nancy
> 
> Have you ever worked/trained with a team down by hilton head and beaufort?


I was on one search where that team showed up. Very interesting........indeed.......and THAT is all I will say.


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## will fernandez

My experience was beyond words. Gotta see it to believe it.


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## Nancy Jocoy

What amazes me is the amount of money they seem to have..............they will also find your missing pets, though......


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## Konnie Hein

The group I'm talking about above has loads of money as well.


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## David Frost

For law enforcement, it can be a public relations nightmare. For example; A child is reported missing. All efforts are being used to find this child. Sitting outside the defined search area is a "volunteer" group that has self-deployed. They aren't working so guess who goes talk to them ..... the media of course. now the parents, relatives etec are wondering why they aren't being used to find their loved one. It can look ugly.

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy

We put magnet signs on our vehicles which are NOT plastered with any decals. The signs are mainly for training at public places and are reflective so we can use them for nightime caravans. Typically don't even have them on for a search.

The car with all the decals and 50 antennas on it is, to me, a big red flag.

I still had to outmaneuver a press van once [not hard to do with a big van if you have some dirt roads] when he saw my truck and the dog crates.


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## Konnie Hein

I totally agree with you on that one, Nancy.


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## Jeff Gore

Your SAR team/group,or organization should have already contacted LE prior to being needed so LE knows you exist and your ability or inability. If the team has done that then you will be called if needed.

You ever wonder how some of these searchs are swarming with dog teams, 4-wheelers, horse back riders, media, snack venders, helicopters and what ever else. literally hundreds of ground pounders.

99 percent of the time I show up with a a dog and a lead and Isometimes get a backup officer, thats it. There are reasons for that, 95 percent of the time my calls are criminal recovery or a criminal investigation. Ciivilians do not have the powers of arrest, they are not armed, and their dogs are not aggression trained. Alot of civilians do not understand that when you enter a crime scene you bring something with you and when you leave you take something with you. That something is contamination. 

If you are not trained in preservation then you are likely to screw up evidence. For this type work I am pretty much a sole source supplier for several miles and county lines. Alot of times the police know who the suspect is before I deploy and if I dont get them we will get a warrant on them later. No need to call anyone else. Sometimes I wonder why I run on known suspects. Believe it or not overtime pay can be a factor on how long a search is conducted. 

I know my civilian SAR people in my area. I have called them on more than one ocassion, They do good work for us, some of their dogs are as good as mine in the same discipline. When it comes to HRD, I know not to deploy, just pick up the phone and call my trusty civilain SAR org. I am proud of those folks and what they do.

If I can get them real deal work I will but I am not going to bring them in on something that will get them hurt, shot or killed or call them when the call is likely to be over by the time they arrive and waste their time. On most of my calls if I were to call them their own SOP would not allow them to deploy anyway.

That group earned their spot on my callout list. There are groups that have earned their spot on my do not call list too. If we dont call dont show up. 

Have you ever been interupted on a training trail and been waived down by a motorist and asked if you need help hahah, it happen to me and they belong to an SAR group on my do not call list. HAHA

So yes there are several reasons not to self deploy. With my percentages it is easy to say that civilan SAR are not called on most callouts but when they are they are greatly needed.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jeff. Thank you. Perfect.

Ever been on a night-search when they could not run FLIR because there were too many "helpful" self-deployed volunteers who would not leave the woods?.............


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## Vi Shaffer

Nancy Jocoy said:


> What amazes me is the amount of money they seem to have..............


You are so right Nancy! There was a team/organization that went on a local TV talk show asking for donations so they could go to NYC in the aftermath of 9-11. They received money but naturally never went and probably never planned to. Their vehicles were plastered with "K9 SAR - Land - Sea - Air" and included lightbars which are not legal in Texas for a civilian team. At one time this team went to a major newspaper and claimed that LE had planted the body found in the area they had searched and said was clear! This was told to me by one of the Investigators. Thank God they are no longer in existance as a SAR team. However, others come out of the woodwork:sad:

It has been mentioned many times on discussion lists that we should "police ourselves". Anyone have any ideas on how we can do that and not run into legal issues?
God Bless


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## Jeff Gore

Vi Shaffer said:


> At one time this team went to a major newspaper and claimed that LE had planted the body found in the area they had searched and said was clear! This was told to me by one of the Investigators.
> 
> It has been mentioned many times on discussion lists that we should "police ourselves". Anyone have any ideas on how we can do that and not run into legal issues?
> God Bless


Was this the burned body in a shallow grave in the pool dam on a relative of the supects place or something like that. If so I heard about some of what you speak of.

If the ones that host training seminars would come together as a collective whole and share info could be a start. You have to be able to say we do not want your business cash or otherwise, go away and not see them as a way to help pay for the seminar so the good ones can have training. By sharing info at least they can be kept out of the bigger events. 

Some of these problems are brought on the SAR community by the SAR community. In the old days if you wanted to get into the police academy you had to be sponsored by an agency. I would like to see SAR at least entertain this approach. If someone wants to attend a seminar they have to be sponsored by a bonafide organization otherwise they are not qualified to attend. That would more or less make training seminars a "by invitation only" event. From what I have seen that will not happen. Its terrible to know you helped train some of these people. 

If the SAR community keeps doing what it is doing it will always have what it already has and that is the good, the bad and the ugly for LE to choose from and victims to rely on.


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## Konnie Hein

I've always felt that a nationwide, required standard and SOPs (like NIMS?) are the best way to set a minimum level of proficiency.


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## Vi Shaffer

Jeff Gore said:


> _Was this the burned body in a shallow grave in the pool dam on a relative of the supects place or something like that. If so I heard about some of what you speak of._
> 
> _If the ones that host training seminars would come together as a collective whole and share info could be a start. You have to be able to say we do not want your business cash or otherwise, go away and not see them as a way to help pay for the seminar so the good ones can have training. By sharing info at least they can be kept out of the bigger events. _
> 
> _Some of these problems are brought on the SAR community by the SAR community. In the old days if you wanted to get into the police academy you had to be sponsored by an agency. I would like to see SAR at least entertain this approach. If someone wants to attend a seminar they have to be sponsored by a bonafide organization otherwise they are not qualified to attend. That would more or less make training seminars a "by invitation only" event. From what I have seen that will not happen. Its terrible to know you helped train some of these people. _
> 
> _If the SAR community keeps doing what it is doing it will always have what it already has and that is the good, the bad and the ugly for LE to choose from and victims to rely on._





OMG there are others who did that?? No, this was a victim who fell out of a tree and shattered both ankles. The ME said he died right there from exposure and dehydration. And "no", the body was not concealed!

In regards to your other comments I say a big AMEN! I once read a post by someone wanting to put on a seminar and asked "Does anyone want to Instruct?" There were no qualifications listed. I agree with you completely about a person being sponsored to attend a seminar. There are those who like to throw a nationally known instructors name around when they've only been to one seminar but feel they now know it all. In fact, at one seminar the prerequisit for the Advanced HRD was the dog had to be certified in Basic HRD. Well, one handler showed up with a puppy so they could say their dog had been to the Advanced training!

When Seminars are conducted, I feel the Instructors' credentials should be listed. There have been some who start "instructing" after only a few months training themselves! See the section in "A Briefing On Basics" article.


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## Bob Scott

One of the absolute worst ones I personely observed was a "team leader" discussing the "old" shovel marks in the soil and foot print on a anomoly (sp) he was digging in. 
The victim was killed and buried 3 yr previous and the area had been flooded by a nearby river twice in that time. 
This was a case of super ego!


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## James Downey

Now, I understand the bad ettiquette that goes with "self-Deploying"...but would this be legally protected by the Good Samaritan Act?

I work Maritime Search and Rescue (non K9) as my normal 9 to 5. We sometimes get Good Sams who try to help, sometimes they do perfectly well, sometimes they get in the way....Sometimes they become a survivor or a casualty themselves. But thier is nothing we can do to stop them trying, and if they **** it up they are protected by the Good Sam act.


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## Vi Shaffer

James Downey said:


> Now, I understand the bad ettiquette that goes with "self-Deploying"...but would this be legally protected by the Good Samaritan Act?
> 
> I work Maritime Search and Rescue (non K9) as my normal 9 to 5. We sometimes get Good Sams who try to help, sometimes they do perfectly well, sometimes they get in the way....Sometimes they become a survivor or a casualty themselves. But thier is nothing we can do to stop them trying, and if they **** it up they are protected by the Good Sam act.


 
That's a very good question. However, I think that if they exceed their level of training and something goes wrong it wouldn't apply. Hope someone has more info on this. Here are a couple of links I found:
http://www.medi-smart.com/gslaw.htm 
http://www.nvfc.org/index.php?id=695

Your next comment about Good Sams who try to help really does leave an agency in a quandry. If turned away and the subject isn't rescued they can go to the media and say they could have done something but you refused their help. This would be a good legal issue to look into. Maybe Terry Fleck will have an answer. But, right now nothing on his site shows anything about this.

God Bless


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## Vi Shaffer

Bob Scott said:


> One of the absolute worst ones I personely observed was a "team leader" discussing the "old" shovel marks in the soil and foot print on a anomoly (sp) he was digging in.
> The victim was killed and buried 3 yr previous and the area had been flooded by a nearby river twice in that time.
> This was a case of super ego!


Ahhh a quote I like is: "Ego: The fallacy whereby a goose thinks he's a swan” (author unknown)

God Bless


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## Jeff Gore

James Downey said:


> Now, I understand the bad ettiquette that goes with "self-Deploying"...but would this be legally protected by the Good Samaritan Act?


I would say you have zero or very little protection under good sam either criminally or civil. Good sam does not show up on a scene with SAR on their car, a dog and a lead and a 10 lb 3 day pack. When you do that you just represented yourself as a professional and you will write a check with your mouth either your body, your dog or both are going to have to cash.

Good sam is someone minding their own business and gets injected into a situation by mere presence. They did not seek it out but chose to do what they thought was right. There is a huge difference. Is a police officer, doctor, nurse or paramedic a good sam when they are off the clock and they inject themself into something and they announce what they are. 

Not the way I see it and I see no difference and neither will the courts. Go redirect a search with your pooch and cost someone their life after identifying yourself as a trained SAR Tech 3, nims certified ambulance or firetruck chaser and see where that lands you after you run to the scene as fast as you can with that check book I was talking about.


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## David Frost

Jeff Gore said:


> Good sam is someone minding their own business and gets injected into a situation by mere presence. They did not seek it out but chose to do what they thought was right. There is a huge difference. Is a police officer, doctor, nurse or paramedic a good sam when they are off the clock and they inject themself into something and they announce what they are.
> 
> Not the way I see it and I see no difference and neither will the courts. Go redirect a search with your pooch and cost someone their life after identifying yourself as a trained SAR Tech 3, nims certified ambulance or firetruck chaser and see where that lands you after you run to the scene as fast as you can with that check book I was talking about.





Extremely well put.

DFrost


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## James Downey

First Jeff...Saying "you"...sounds like your talking directly to me. 

David, Your an LEO you have to get training on this....that's not even close.

The Good Samaritan act does cover professionals, In fact that's what started it. Professionals off duty were stopping to help people, and then would get sued.....I drive around with an EMT sticker on my truck. If I stop on the freeway to help someone, I am covered. As long as I practise within the protocols of my training. And in some instances protects Professionals on Duty....the Good Sam act covers the Coast Guard, if they use helicopters to rescue someone off a car in a inland flood....but rip down your house with the rotor wash. 

This is the defintion of a Good Sam, A good samaritan refers to someone who renders aid in an emergency to an injured person on a voluntary basis. That's it. 

Also the some Good Samatian acts can indict a professional for not volunteering thier services while off duty to a person in need. Some just require the professional at a minimium call for help.

I am willing to bet legally, A person showing up to help, even if uninvited would be protected by most state laws, as a good samaritan. Even if they were listening to a police scanner. 

I get why some of you are pissed....But I have to believe if thier was a real case, and people showed up offering thier help. You cannot prosecute them for that. Now Good Sam Acts do give the power to the victim to prosecute if the professional works outside of thier scope of qualifications. 

So basically if someone shows up at a SAR case with a dog and offers thier help. They could be prosecuted if they work a dog that cannot prove they have the qualifications to do so. 

It would be no different than someone stopping of scene providing a person care at an Paramedic level when they are not a paramedic. 

But here's where it can get dicey, If I stop on car accident as an EMT and I do not have proper personal protective equipment, protocol states I have now have the choice if I want to expose myself to that person. I can refuse to help.


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## James Downey

I also think a lot of people are taking the liberty that these people are coming out to boost their ego. 

I am sure thier are people who show up because they have a good heart, and want to help.

If my kid is lost, and you got a dog that is qualified to help. Your more than welcome to come out and see if we need help without recieveing a phone call first.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

Trying to join the group you emailed me about Konnie... For them , only response it to LE call for assistance. Which is the right approach and I agree with it.


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## Nancy Jocoy

James, I understand where you are coming from but I have been on real searches that were compromised by well meaning citizens. 

And how do you qualify these people.....our state does require some level of NIMs compliance before you can work a scene and maybe that does not matter if someone is found and no one gets hurt but it could be a huge liablity if someone is not found or someone does get hurt. You see walking heart attacks going out to "save johnny" worrying about whether it will turn into a rescue session for them.

Having to see a FLIR helicopter sent back because there were so many "helpful" folks who would not come out of the woods so the sensor woudl be of no value.

Having someone on a four wheeler bring back the missing child's backpack and then not being able to remember exactly where he found it. 

People being left in the woods not accounted for at the end of the search because nobody had them logged in or out

Searchers who knew nothing about land nav getting LOST in the woods and having to waste IC time getting talked back to a road then picked up

Being so overwhelemed by vehicles and helpers that the search crews have to waste time finding parking.

How do you know if a dog is qualified if you don't already have them listed in advance as a resource? 

I know it has been brought up that I am overweight and that is exactly why I don't go into the woods on a live search until I can meet my own weight and fitness goals....but I even once saw someone on crutches in the field on a search......

I could not live with myself if I had some problem that could have been predicted that resulted in redirecting or slowing a search effort. A lot of people don't seem to think of it that way.....


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

LOL! A search and rescue team with their own psychic, huh? I spilled my coffee in my lap laughing.




Bob Scott said:


> It can be a big problem here in Missouri. You may get half a dozen wannaby teams turn up at a search site (scanner chasers) and have everything screwd up by the time a legit team is called in.
> I think this is where educating the smaller, more remote PDs is necessary.
> The State PD and the Feds are now wise to it. The smaller PDs are learning.
> The best one was a "search" team that showed up with their own "mystic" or whatever you want to call them. This gal told the "team" where to use the dogs. ](*,)


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## Jeff Gore

James Downey said:


> First Jeff...Saying "you"...sounds like your talking directly to me.
> 
> David, Your an LEO you have to get training on this....that's not even close.
> 
> The Good Samaritan act does cover professionals,I drive around with an EMT sticker on my truck. If I stop on the freeway to help someone, I am covered. As long as I practise within the protocols of my training.
> 
> This is the defintion of a Good Sam, A good samaritan refers to someone who renders aid in an emergency to an injured person on a voluntary basis. That's it.
> 
> Now Good Sam Acts do give the power to the victim to prosecute if the professional works outside of thier scope of qualifications.
> 
> So basically if someone shows up at a SAR case with a dog and offers thier help. They could be prosecuted if they work a dog that cannot prove they have the qualifications to do so.
> 
> It would be no different than someone stopping of scene providing a person care at an Paramedic level when they are not a paramedic.


I am sorry James, I was not directing anything I said to you personally or anyone else however I can see have you could think that. I do use "you" alot. From reading your post it looks like we agree in several area and maybe not in some others but that is ok. 

The jest of what I am referring to is there are reasons people in SAR do not belong to a bonafide org. Some reasons are respectable and others are not. There are reasons people show up to a call instead of calling the agency in charge and advising their availability, ability, ETA and the fact that its of no cost to the requesting agency, the victim or their families and most of those reasons will be negative. For those that know their limitations and stay within them will never need the Good Sam Act whether they are professional or volunteer. 

I might have mislead some others when I mentioned SAR TECH 3 and Nims Certified. That was not a blanket statement to all that hold those certifications and I was not bashing the creditility of those programs. 

I was suggesting that just because you hold those credientials does not make you qualified on any topic within those creditetials. I have had nims training and I have the t-shirt and the certificate. To my own admission I not seen it or utilizied it since. That qualifies me to say it is a use it or lose it skill. Knowing my own limitations and staying with in them, I am not the best choice with it comes to applying Nims protocol.

I am not talking about or to Qualified Responders, I am talking to the ones that think they are and want to convience everyone else to think they are. We all know people that fit this catagory.


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## James Downey

Nancy Jocoy said:


> James, I understand where you are coming from but I have been on real searches that were compromised by well meaning citizens.
> 
> And how do you qualify these people.....our state does require some level of NIMs compliance before you can work a scene and maybe that does not matter if someone is found and no one gets hurt but it could be a huge liablity if someone is not found or someone does get hurt. You see walking heart attacks going out to "save johnny" worrying about whether it will turn into a rescue session for them.
> 
> Having to see a FLIR helicopter sent back because there were so many "helpful" folks who would not come out of the woods so the sensor woudl be of no value.
> 
> Having someone on a four wheeler bring back the missing child's backpack and then not being able to remember exactly where he found it.
> 
> People being left in the woods not accounted for at the end of the search because nobody had them logged in or out
> 
> Searchers who knew nothing about land nav getting LOST in the woods and having to waste IC time getting talked back to a road then picked up
> 
> Being so overwhelemed by vehicles and helpers that the search crews have to waste time finding parking.
> 
> How do you know if a dog is qualified if you don't already have them listed in advance as a resource?
> 
> I know it has been brought up that I am overweight and that is exactly why I don't go into the woods on a live search until I can meet my own weight and fitness goals....but I even once saw someone on crutches in the field on a search......
> 
> I could not live with myself if I had some problem that could have been predicted that resulted in redirecting or slowing a search effort. A lot of people don't seem to think of it that way.....


 
I getcha, But I still do not think it's negligent act or criminal. 

I also think instead of trying to change everyones mind, thier something lacking on a SAR OPS Management....People are going to show up no matter what. I think that maybe if those things are happening. The "controller" is not really being effective. 

When Katrina Hit, You may remember that the Coast Guard lead the largest SAR operation in U.S. history. We started by getting control of the assets we had....whether we owned them or not. We controlled the Navy, CG, urban teams Even Animal rescue organizations. I am not bragging about who I work for, but when it comes to Maritime rescue. The CG defintly comes with the resources and the assertiveness to establish command. So when Shawn Penn comes to the Rescue with his row boat we give him an area in 18 inches of water so he does not kill himself or anyone else.

So when I hear that Helo's have to go home....I wonder who's running the show?


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think this kind of thing tends to happen more in small departments in poor rural areas where resources are not readiliy available than they are in more populated areas more familiar and experienced with handling larger scale events. 

Even for bigger ones, I imagine a lot of training in Search Management and Techniques is not the most effective use of tax dollars....if you look at it from an actuarial standpoint. 

To me part of the value of having a relationship with a volunteer SAR group is that partnering with professional volunteers who will spend their own time and money to do this brings value to the community. {as long as the resources truly are capable}


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## James Downey

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think this kind of thing tends to happen more in small departments in poor rural areas where resources are not readiliy available than they are in more populated areas more familiar and experienced with handling larger scale events.
> 
> Even for bigger ones, I imagine a lot of training in Search Management and Techniques is not the most effective use of tax dollars....if you look at it from an actuarial standpoint.
> 
> To me part of the value of having a relationship with a volunteer SAR group is that partnering with professional volunteers who will spend their own time and money to do this brings value to the community. {as long as the resources truly are capable}


 
I agree with the poorer the community the less resources....San Diego was my last station....massive amounts of state money to evacuate, fight fires, and rescue people. Here in MI, if your lost in the woods...You have to rely on federal assets...and if they border was not here or the great lakes...you'd be on your own. 

We have a hard time with getting money a lot of the time... We have h-65 helos, which are french but in order to get the contract the had to make the helo out of 51% american parts....so one of the things was engines. We used grossly underpowered engines (you can read about this in the news) that constantly caused problems. We bitched for years to congress about getting better engines. It took a little boy dying in hawaii, the kid hit his head on the gunnel of a boat while whale watching...We hoisted him to the helo, during the hoist the engines gave trouble. So the helo instead flying directly to the hospital had to land at the airport, it was arranged an Ambulance would meet the helo...but the ambulance got lost on the airport. While waiting for care in the helo the little boy died. After an autopsy, it was proven if he had made it to higher level of care faster he could have easily lived. 

So, in SAR the money never comes till someone dies.


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## Jim Nash

I don't have any experiance working with SAR teams around here ( St Paul , MN ) though I know there are organizations around here doing it . 

I've told this story before but since I have an audiance of legitimate SAR folks I'll tell it again . 

We had an individual that came in from out of state a few years ago . We had a series of incidents where college students were coming up missing usually after a night of drinking . Almost all were ending up found later in rivers or other bodies of water . 

This individual showed up at the height of these incidents , 1 being a U of M student missing from the downtown Minneapolis area and another from St. John's University a couple of hours out of the metro area .

She was assisting the families , I'm unsure if she approached them or they her but they immediately contacted the media and they filmed her tracking with her Bloodhound , I think weeks after his disappearance , during the late weekend bar rush in downtown MPLS. to the river where she said her dog tracked to . 

Now I'm not a Bloodhound guy but this dog didn't look in scent at all . Both looked like they were going for a walk . She was a very heavey set women and that made their walk pretty slow . 

She was later interviewed buy a local newspaper and she stated her only training was watching C.S.I . on TV and that her dog didn't need any training because they do it naturally and that she had been called into to assist in searches like this throughout the country . 

It was pretty amazing to watch unfold on the news especially since the family members were sometimes there and seeing the false hope (or information she was giving them ) . 

I haven't seen her since . Just thought I'd give you all a heads up .


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## James Downey

Jim Nash said:


> I don't have any experiance working with SAR teams around here ( St Paul , MN ) though I know there are organizations around here doing it .
> 
> I've told this story before but since I have an audiance of legitimate SAR folks I'll tell it again .
> 
> We had an individual that came in from out of state a few years ago . We had a series of incidents where college students were coming up missing usually after a night of drinking . Almost all were ending up found later in rivers or other bodies of water .
> 
> This individual showed up at the height of these incidents , 1 being a U of M student missing from the downtown Minneapolis area and another from St. John's University a couple of hours out of the metro area .
> 
> She was assisting the families , I'm unsure if she approached them or they her but they immediately contacted the media and they filmed her tracking with her Bloodhound , I think weeks after his disappearance , during the late weekend bar rush in downtown MPLS. to the river where she said her dog tracked to .
> 
> Now I'm not a Bloodhound guy but this dog didn't look in scent at all . Both looked like they were going for a walk . She was a very heavey set women and that made their walk pretty slow .
> 
> She was later interviewed buy a local newspaper and she stated her only training was watching C.S.I . on TV and that her dog didn't need any training because they do it naturally and that she had been called into to assist in searches like this throughout the country .
> 
> It was pretty amazing to watch unfold on the news especially since the family members were sometimes there and seeing the false hope (or information she was giving them ) .
> 
> I haven't seen her since . Just thought I'd give you all a heads up .


And that is negligent....and for sure needs to be checked. The real dangerous thing is the women most likely honestly thought the dog did not need training and was doing the family a service.


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## David Frost

James, I have had training in "that". For me to leave my house when I hear of a lost child and start looking in the woods, on my own is one thing. It is not part of any Good Samaritan Act. If I'm driving down the road and I see an injured person, and I"m in a position I can assist, that is a Good Samaritan Act. As Jeff posted, finding yourself in a situation that was unavoidable can place a person in a position where the Good Samaritan Act would apply. Please note the phrase; at the immediate scene of an accident or emergency. Or as listed in this definition; 

Good Samaritan Act:

No liability for emergency aid unless gross negligence
1 A person who renders emergency medical services or aid to an ill, injured or unconscious person, at the immediate scene of an accident or emergency that has caused the illness, injury or unconsciousness, is not liable for damages for injury to or death of that person caused by the person's act or omission in rendering the medical services or aid unless that person is grossly negligent.

Exceptions
2 Section 1 does not apply if the person rendering the medical services or aid

(a) is employed expressly for that purpose, or

(b) does so with a view to gain.


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## Vi Shaffer

Nancy Jocoy said:


> James, I understand where you are coming from but I have been on real searches that were compromised by well meaning citizens.
> 
> And how do you qualify these people.....our state does require some level of NIMs compliance before you can work a scene and maybe that does not matter if someone is found and no one gets hurt but it could be a huge liablity if someone is not found or someone does get hurt. You see walking heart attacks going out to "save johnny" worrying about whether it will turn into a rescue session for them.
> 
> Having to see a FLIR helicopter sent back because there were so many "helpful" folks who would not come out of the woods so the sensor woudl be of no value.
> 
> Having someone on a four wheeler bring back the missing child's backpack and then not being able to remember exactly where he found it.
> 
> People being left in the woods not accounted for at the end of the search because nobody had them logged in or out
> 
> Searchers who knew nothing about land nav getting LOST in the woods and having to waste IC time getting talked back to a road then picked up
> 
> Being so overwhelemed by vehicles and helpers that the search crews have to waste time finding parking.
> 
> How do you know if a dog is qualified if you don't already have them listed in advance as a resource?
> 
> I know it has been brought up that I am overweight and that is exactly why I don't go into the woods on a live search until I can meet my own weight and fitness goals....but I even once saw someone on crutches in the field on a search......
> 
> I could not live with myself if I had some problem that could have been predicted that resulted in redirecting or slowing a search effort. A lot of people don't seem to think of it that way.....


 
Nancy, you have made some excellent points as have others. A now deceased member of SAR once posted "Good Intentions do not make a SAR Team". I don't remember the exact statement but that's pretty close. 

I've heard of "instinct certified" Bloodhounds too. It seems these people who don't have any training and think it's all up to the dog don't know the meaning of the word "team".

The comments on the Good Same Act have been very good. Here in Texas if you have a decal on your vehicle (First Responder, EMT, etc) and there's an accident, you had better stop to assist however you can.

I think it was David (?) who said that if you have SAR on your vehicle, etc. that you are stating you are a professional. So right and that's false representation It amazes me though, how some folks start or join a SAR team (without no or little training) and the first thing they do is get mag signs for their car and shabracks for their dogs! I believe the Quality Should Go In Before The Name Goes On.

God Bless


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## James Downey

David Frost said:


> James, I have had training in "that". For me to leave my house when I hear of a lost child and start looking in the woods, on my own is one thing. It is not part of any Good Samaritan Act. If I'm driving down the road and I see an injured person, and I"m in a position I can assist, that is a Good Samaritan Act. As Jeff posted, finding yourself in a situation that was unavoidable can place a person in a position where the Good Samaritan Act would apply. Please note the phrase; at the immediate scene of an accident or emergency. Or as listed in this definition;
> 
> Good Samaritan Act:
> 
> No liability for emergency aid unless gross negligence
> 1 A person who renders emergency medical services or aid to an ill, injured or unconscious person, at the immediate scene of an accident or emergency that has caused the illness, injury or unconsciousness, is not liable for damages for injury to or death of that person caused by the person's act or omission in rendering the medical services or aid unless that person is grossly negligent.
> 
> Exceptions
> 2 Section 1 does not apply if the person rendering the medical services or aid
> 
> (a) is employed expressly for that purpose,
> 
> (b) does so with a view to gain.


David forgive me for my haste in response....the way I addressed you was not very kind.

I am not so sure that how someone arrives (with intention or by chance) plays apart. And I mean that, I really do not know. One because each state has a different Act or Law. and most do not clearly state if your arrival was intentional or by accident. The link you posted eludes in not very clear terms to that, but I think the interpetation could be argued. I am not a lawyer....By any stretch. But I would think this would be one for interpetation of a judge. The other thing that makes think....is the only way someone would come under legal scrutiny is if they hindered the search after being asked to not particpate or falsley stated thier ability to assit. I think anyone who would self deploy and shows up to help would not be held liable for simply self deploying.


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## Konnie Hein

James Downey said:


> I also think a lot of people are taking the liberty that these people are coming out to boost their ego.
> 
> I am sure thier are people who show up because they have a good heart, and want to help.
> 
> If my kid is lost, and you got a dog that is qualified to help. Your more than welcome to come out and see if we need help without recieveing a phone call first.


I personally wouldn't want that. I'd prefer an organized search where all the resources are requested and directed by a qualified IC. I see nothing wrong with SAR resources making the IC aware of their abilities/services (and I agree with Jeff that this should be done long before a search occurs), but just showing up without invitation is to me and entirely ego-based action. 

I think Nancy addressed this quite well from a wilderness perspective, but I thought I would add that in my line of SAR work, if unqualified people (such as a local wilderness team with little to no disaster SAR training) show up to help, they are putting their lives at risk and potentially getting in the way. And when they have to be removed from the site, or they get hurt, the qualified resources will have to waste time dealing with them when they should be dealing with the victims of the disaster.


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## Konnie Hein

Vi Shaffer said:


> I believe the Quality Should Go In Before The Name Goes On.


I agree.


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## James Downey

Konnie Hein said:


> I personally wouldn't want that. I'd prefer an organized search where all the resources are requested and directed by a qualified IC. I see nothing wrong with SAR resources making the IC aware of their abilities/services (and I agree with Jeff that this should be done long before a search occurs), but just showing up without invitation is to me and entirely ego-based action.
> 
> I think Nancy addressed this quite well from a wilderness perspective, but I thought I would add that in my line of SAR work, if unqualified people (such as a local wilderness team with little to no disaster SAR training) show up to help, they are putting their lives at risk and potentially getting in the way. And when they have to be removed from the site, or they get hurt, the qualified resources will have to waste time dealing with them when they should be dealing with the victims of the disaster.


 
Konnie, I agree that teams need to be "qualified" for the work. I also have never been to a land SAR case where the people just show up in droves with their dog. I think that's the picture being painted. That johnny come lately shows up with his dog who can find his food bowl.

but how do we know that people are just there for an Ego boost....And how do we know they do not have skills that could be an asset to the effort. I do my job in an effort to be of service, I do not care if anyone gives me any recongnition. I am grateful, I have a job that enables me to help people. And I try to keep it at that. Now of course, every human suffers from some degree of Ego. But I cannot believe that everyone showing up uninvited is doing so with the intention of getting thier picture on the front page. I have to believe that some people just show up to see if they can help. I think it's a tough line to haul and say that someone offering thier service to help thier fellow man is always motivated, without exception by ego.


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## Konnie Hein

James Downey said:


> Konnie, I agree that teams need to be "qualified" for the work. I also have never been to a land SAR case where the people just show up in droves with their dog. I think that's the picture being painted. That johnny come lately shows up with his dog who can find his food bowl.


Maybe that's not your experience, but it does happen. The 9/11 WTC collapse was definitely a search where people just showed up in droves with their dogs. The vast majority of the people with dogs who self-deployed to this disaster were not qualified to help.



> but how do we know that people are just there for an Ego boost....And how do we know they do not have skills that could be an asset to the effort. I do my job in an effort to be of service, I do not care if anyone gives me any recongnition. I am grateful, I have a job that enables me to help people. And I try to keep it at that. Now of course, every human suffers from some degree of Ego. But I cannot believe that everyone showing up uninvited is doing so with the intention of getting thier picture on the front page. I have to believe that some people just show up to see if they can help. I think it's a tough line to haul and say that someone offering thier service to help thier fellow man is always motivated, without exception by ego.


I've been to wilderness searches where people show up to help in any way they can. I think most of these people are generally the well-meaning folks who are not motivated by ego. However, the people who show up unrequested with light bars and stickers all over their vehicles, dogs in tow and all the bells and whistles aren't cut from the same cloth, IMO. These are the people I was referring to.

And, you have a pretty cool job, James. Thanks for doing what you do.


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## Nancy Jocoy

James Downey said:


> I have to believe that some people just show up to see if they can help. I think it's a tough line to haul and say that someone offering thier service to help thier fellow man is always motivated, without exception by ego.


That is true and there are good ways to use these people so they don't destroy evidence or get hurt......containment, searching yards, etc. where they are not likely to get hurt or destroy clues. But keep them out of the search area if they don't have any special training. And if it is a child, sometimes you really don't know who is showing up.........our team requires an FBI background search of all members. You don't have any kind of screening when random folks show up.

One great thing folks can do if they don't want the all out SAR team thing is get involved in a CERT team. Still a lot of training but not as rugged. Our local CERT team is of great value during searches.

I would not have trouble with a seasoned hunter ........ but most other folks ..........no.


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## James Downey

Konnie Hein said:


> Maybe that's not your experience, but it does happen. The 9/11 WTC collapse was definitely a search where people just showed up in droves with their dogs. The vast majority of the people with dogs who self-deployed to this disaster were not qualified to help.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been to wilderness searches where people show up to help in any way they can. I think most of these people are generally the well-meaning folks who are not motivated by ego. However, the people who show up unrequested with light bars and stickers all over their vehicles, dogs in tow and all the bells and whistles aren't cut from the same cloth, IMO. These are the people I was referring to.
> 
> And, you have a pretty cool job, James. Thanks for doing what you do.


Thanks it is a pretty good job. Cannot believe they pay me for it. That's almost a crime in itself....And you too...thanks for offering your time and your dog.

Konnie, and I should have added this in the previous post....I do not doubt that the people show up. That's what I meant that I was not experienced, and therefore was not doubting that what your saying happens.

Shit, at Katrina Sean Penn showed up with a row boat. Talk about no buisness being there.


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> our team requires an FBI background search of all members. You don't have any kind of screening when random folks show up.


Our State USAR team requires a background check too. I wonder how common this is for SAR groups? 

Nancy - what limits do you set on that background search - what would render somebody not able to join your team?


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## Konnie Hein

James Downey said:


> Shit, at Katrina Sean Penn showed up with a row boat. Talk about no buisness being there.


I seriously thought you were joking when you mentioned that the first time. Then I googled it. What a nutjob.


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## Daryl Ehret

Konnie Hein said:


> Our State USAR team requires a background check too. I wonder how common this is for SAR groups?
> 
> Nancy - what limits do you set on that background search - what would render somebody not able to join your team?


Sorry, I haven't been following this thread, but my group did a background check on me.


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## Denise Gatlin

James Downey said:


> Shit, at Katrina Sean Penn showed up with a row boat. Talk about no buisness being there.


He and a lot of others showed up just for the TV shots. I was on the animal rescue end of it and oh my, what a fiasco. 

I really have no voice in this thread but find it absolutely fascinating and informative. For many years, I have had a strong interest in SAR but recognize the local extenuating forces that would make live search involvement nearly impossible in my area. 
The problem I see locally is that there are so many communities with many generations of relatives and friends who mean well but come out in droves on a missing person scene. And, they are all related to local LE (picture Buford T.Justice) and everyone knows everyone. For instance, last year a teenager went hunting and got lost. The closest legitimate SAR team is 4-1/2 hours away drive time, mind you. By the time they got there, they had to park almost 2 miles down the road, there were 80+ ATVs, herds of people on horses, as well as a hunter with over a dozen walker deer hounds trapsing through the woods. The hunter said, well, heck 'dem der dogs can hunt down deer and hogs, what the heck difference is a kid? Believe it or not. When you live in ******* bubba-ville, how does a legitimate SAR team get that under control?


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## James Downey

Konnie Hein said:


> Our State USAR team requires a background check too. I wonder how common this is for SAR groups?
> 
> Nancy - what limits do you set on that background search - what would render somebody not able to join your team?


 
We have to do the same thing. Being part of SAR can possibly give you information into LE investigations and sometimes matters of National Security. You may have information on where federal or local assets maybe located. The look for you lying on it....They do not care if your a recovering Alkie or smoked weed in your life....they care if you lie about it. And the other biggy is finacial debt. If you have huge amounts of debt. the worry about you taking money for information or even compromising a search. And some mental illnesses are disqualifying. I am not sure of all that's disqualifying but the Debt is a big one. I am not sure if it's the same for you, as it is for us. But it would make sense that you may be priveyed to the same types of information I am.


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## James Downey

Denise Gatlin said:


> He and a lot of others showed up just for the TV shots. I was on the animal rescue end of it and oh my, what a fiasco.
> 
> I really have no voice in this thread but find it absolutely fascinating and informative. For many years, I have had a strong interest in SAR but recognize the local extenuating forces that would make live search involvement nearly impossible in my area.
> The problem I see locally is that there are so many communities with many generations of relatives and friends who mean well but come out in droves on a missing person scene. And, they are all related to local LE (picture Buford T.Justice) and everyone knows everyone. For instance, last year a teenager went hunting and got lost. The closest legitimate SAR team is 4-1/2 hours away drive time, mind you. By the time they got there, they had to park almost 2 miles down the road, there were 80+ ATVs, herds of people on horses, as well as a hunter with over a dozen walker deer hounds trapsing through the woods. The hunter said, well, heck 'dem der dogs can hunt down deer and hogs, what the heck difference is a kid? Believe it or not. When you live in ******* bubba-ville, how does a legitimate SAR team get that under control?


 
This where I wonder who the hell is running the show. Who is in charge of the investigation? Why do they not have better control over who is out there.


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## Bob Scott

Something else to toss in the pot here.
At EVERY search I've been on there was always a central command base. That may be the HP, Feds, local PD, whatever. The chain of command dictates that all will be in contact with this central command through their own leadership or communication person.
Any group showing up on their own is in total conflict with the idea of this and does nothing but confuse the situation.
Ego, seriously wanting to help or just being stupid, they don't belong there.

Another thought.
Many air scent dogs aren't necessarily trained to be scent specific. Without control of the crowd/area/situation the dog is going to be chasing shadows.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Konnie Hein said:


> Nancy - what limits do you set on that background search - what would render somebody not able to join your team?


We specify clean background check; if something minor came up the officers would have to discuss. So far our everyone on our team is "clean" so it has not come up but we started doing a national test when someone recognized prison tatoos on an applicant who was clean on the state check. We *did* investigate and his crime was minor enough that we may have considered him but he lied to us about it and that was enough to exclude him. After that we asked exisiting members to get the FBI check.


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## Ryan Cusack

100% do NOT self deploy, just like every other ARDA unit. Make your team known to the law enforcement and fire agencies in your area. Demonstrate proficiency. Wait for a call.


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## Sarah Atlas

My teammates and I were involved in a wilderness search (we are a usar team) invited by the NJ state Police. (most of the team also do wilderness)High Profile. Huge search area. The day before we were asked to assist every tom dick and harry showed up to walk the areas. In the process, they dropped items (rubber gloves, duct tape etc.)all over the search areas. Local radio station bashed the NJSP for not calling in more volunteers and suggested everyone just head down and start searching.

So, we are walking our assigned areas with a detective assigned to us and every so often we find , tape , golves. The well meaning volunteers were throwing trash in our search area. We would have to stop searching so the detective could check out the tape.

One other point I would like to bring up.With media always present and most having the ability to pick up conversations far far away. what is to stop an untrained but well meaning volunteer from discussing the search. One of the first things we are reminded of when begininig a search is keep quiet,


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## James Downey

Sarah Atlas said:


> My teammates and I were involved in a wilderness search (we are a usar team) invited by the NJ state Police. (most of the team also do wilderness)High Profile. Huge search area. The day before we were asked to assist every tom dick and harry showed up to walk the areas. In the process, they dropped items (rubber gloves, duct tape etc.)all over the search areas. Local radio station bashed the NJSP for not calling in more volunteers and suggested everyone just head down and start searching.
> 
> So, we are walking our assigned areas with a detective assigned to us and every so often we find , tape , golves. The well meaning volunteers were throwing trash in our search area. We would have to stop searching so the detective could check out the tape.
> 
> One other point I would like to bring up.With media always present and most having the ability to pick up conversations far far away. what is to stop an untrained but well meaning volunteer from discussing the search. One of the first things we are reminded of when begininig a search is keep quiet,


Again who's running the show...the radio station it seems like.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Sarah Atlas said:


> One other point I would like to bring up.With media always present and most having the ability to pick up conversations far far away. what is to stop an untrained but well meaning volunteer from discussing the search. One of the first things we are reminded of when begininig a search is keep quiet,


One of the saddest things I saw was when the parents of the victim had to be rushed outside because the news was coming on before the family was told of the negative outcome and that is NOT the way you should find out. Same things with people showing up and posting on the web before the family has been told. Once I was home during the second shift of the search and called the newspaper asking them to pull the comment because someone had posted inside informaiton in the public comments section. 

These nosy folks have even intercepted private cell phone conversations anf force you to constantly revise your "language" when you call in. Sometimes if you find evidence, you have to come back to IC to tell them instead of call it in because the conversation will be heard.

Why the news folks can't build in a few minute delay to accomodate having a chance to "break the news" is awful.


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## Patrick Cheatham

I would have to say Nancy that was a very bad situation with the media. But I also remember a search that someone self deployed on. The lady was actualy featured on the news while working her dog with cameras following her. She was giving a freaking play by play of how the dog was following the little boys trail.

With out giving details lets just say she was never on the "trail". And with the actual outcome I'm sure as hell glad the cameras were not there when it came to a close. People like that give all our teams a bad wrap.


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## Jim Nash

Patrick , that's sounds just like an incident I spoke of earlier in this discussion that happened here in Minnesota . Was it an extremely overweight woman with a Bloodhound ?


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## Bob Scott

I was on quite a few searches where the news choppers were like flies overhead. I've also seen them (news) put up portable sound towers to pick up discussions from a distance. It's sad when you have to talk in code of some sort to keep the news nose out of the searches.
Another down side to the news chopper is my gkids could easily pick me out in nightly news.
"Look"! "There's Pop's shiny head". 
Evil little yard rats! :evil: :wink:
Water searches also take a different (careful) mindset because the sound travels so easily over water and there is often family members on the shore line.


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## Konnie Hein

Bob Scott said:


> I was on quite a few searches where the news choppers were like flies overhead.


We had to request a "no fly zone" over the power plant explosion site last week. The news choppers apparently didn't realize that flying so close to an already unstable structure might be an issue. I guess the 500 lb. hanging-by-a-thread sheets of insulated metal siding waving in the wind didn't seem problematic to them. Kinda scary.


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## Vi Shaffer

Konnie Hein said:


> We had to request a "no fly zone" over the power plant explosion site last week. The news choppers apparently didn't realize that flying so close to an already unstable structure might be an issue. I guess the 500 lb. hanging-by-a-thread sheets of insulated metal siding waving in the wind didn't seem problematic to them. Kinda scary.


 
With the media's high tech equipment, sometimes "no fly zones" don't mean that much. On a very high-profile search the FBI designated a no-fly-zone and the choppers looked so tiny in the sky. However, when the news video came out it looked like they were just above all of us. Fortunately they couldn't get any audio.
God Bless


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## Konnie Hein

It is pretty scary when you think about it!


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## Patrick Cheatham

Jim no this lady actualy had a yellow lab


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