# Would a Malinois be the right breed for living in my pet shop?



## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

A friend and I are in the process of writing out a business proposal to set up a pet shop, and we want to buy a dog to live in the shop during the day. In the evening I would take him back to my apartment. 

I really want a working-line Malinois but I am aware of their high level of energy and drive. If given the proper exercise and mental stimulation (which I am planning to do of course), would this be a good setting for the Mal?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

with the right dog trained properly, a good dog is a good dog ... anywhere

but for a bunch of other reasons i wouldn't do it and think it's a somewhat selfish idea ... cake and eating it analogy 

the business you are starting will cater to many clueless pet owners, and if you have a house dog in there it better be able to be VERY tolerant of idiots and their spoiled untrained dogs. there are plenty of other breeds that would be better suited. but even they will require being NON reactive  

or get a chinese crested so all the people's dogs that come in will look better than yours ? //lol//

and there might be a lot of people that would do a 180 and walk out if a mal was there to greet and eat them


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

Couldn't a Mal be trained to be calm and non-reactive in situations where people and/dogs are disturbing the peace?



> and there might be a lot of people that would do a 180 and walk out if a mal was there to greet and eat them


Good idea.  I didn't even think of that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Why are you considering a Mal?


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

Mals are my favorite breed and I know I could give it the proper exercise and stimulation it needs. ^^


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Have you ever had one? Do you plan on doing anything else with it besides work/home companion?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> A friend and I are in the process of writing out a business proposal to set up a pet shop, and we want to buy a dog to live in the shop during the day. In the evening I would take him back to my apartment.
> 
> I really want a working-line Malinois but I am aware of their high level of energy and drive. If given the proper exercise and mental stimulation (which I am planning to do of course), would this be a good setting for the Mal?


Why a working line mali and what is the purpose for him being in the shop? Protection?


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

No, I've never owned one, but activities I plan on doing with my dog is sulky, biking, agility, competitive frisbee, obedience, flyball, and just teaching my dog lots of random tricks to keep up his mental stimulation. I want my dog to be a jack of all trades. That would be my goal. 



> Why a working line mali and what is the purpose for him being in the shop? Protection?


No, not protection. We just wanted a mascot for the store and I want a Mal since they are my favorite breed. Working line because I despise show lines of every working breed.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you basically said the dog will :
"live in the shop during the day and go back to the apartment at night"

....so when does it get all that quality exercise and mental stimulation ??

i'll restate what i originally wrote in a more simple way :
CRAZY IDEA 
... regardless of the fact that a good dog is a good dog and can be trained to do anything

Alice ... it ain't to protect the pet store ](*,) 
... it's to satisfy the selfish desire to own a working mal and require it to live in a pet store and apartment
...... at least that's all that's been written so far


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. I'm taking my dog to work all day and when I leave I'd take him back home with me. O.O I don't see what's wrong with that.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. I'm taking my dog to work all day and when I leave I'd take him back home with me. O.O I don't see what's wrong with that.


From how you describe it it looks like the dog will be in the store the entire day which makes people wonder when the dog will actually get its stimulation time. You can't keep it occupied or stimulate it during the day since you have a store to keep an eye on.

You want a working line dog for non specific reasons to sit in a store all day long. Not an ideal plan to be honest. Any dog can pretty much be taught to do what you want it to do. 

Can I ask? What do you expect from the dog when it is at the store? Do you have any ideas or plans for that or do you plan to keep him crated during the day? 

I think that all the things you want and expect from a dog are a bit far fetched and you are setting yourself up for some problems in the future. You have this whole range of things you want the dog to learn, including bitework yet you probably expect the dog to be fairly docile and neutral when he is at the store with you.

To answer your question as to would it be a good setting? No it would not be a good setting at all and I would urge you to reconsider your plan. A mali, by nature is high drive to begin with. If you insist in this pursuit I would suggest you go with an entirely different breed and not to expect the impossible. But to be honest, I think you know that already otherwise you wouldn't have posed your question on this forum to begin with.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

rick smith said:


> you basically said the dog will :
> "live in the shop during the day and go back to the apartment at night"
> 
> ....so when does it get all that quality exercise and mental stimulation ??
> ...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I just read some of your other posts....and I am sorry I did not do so earlier!

I noticed that you are getting a degree in animal training, even worse...you think that a degree on paper actually means something in the real world and you got offended at someone pointing that out to you.

Theory and practice are 2 quite different things! You will discover that for yourself soon enough tho.

Training any dog is hands on work....not a single piece of paper can prepare you for it... Do yourself and the Mali you plan to get a big favor....find another breed, like a yellow lab or something... a dog with no drive that only needs to breathe as mental stimulation.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Alice ....nice ? =D>=D>=D>
we'll see about that when the meds wear off =D>=D>=D>

but it is nice of you to take the time and provide your viewpoints and expertise ,,, please come to Japan and stop by and visit. we can harass some kids chasing pigeons in the park


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

I would think that being with your dog all day is better than going to work and leaving him at home. That way he is always doing something with you and people and won't be as bored. 

Ideas of the dog in the store? As the store mascot he would be greeting customers and just be a presence in the store (not crated). This was a really stupid question actually, since I asked it the moment I thought of the idea of getting a Mal for the shop. The more I'm talking to you guys though, the more I see that it wouldn't be any different than just getting the dog and keeping it at home except that it'd be less bored. " 

I'm not worried about the dog being aggressive or overly reactive, since Mals are so easy to train that I'm confident I can get rid of any aggression issues. I'm not planning on doing bitework with the dog btw. I never said I would. 

About my animal training, I don't understand why you think I wouldn't be able to train a dog if I can train lions? It's not just a certification on paper, I'd have to actually train animals hands-on and prove I can to get the "piece of paper."


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

lions can't be TRAINED, meaning you can't develop rock solid "trained responses" under a high degree of distraction ... if you trained them that way it would be suicidal 
- which is why people are killed every year by their exotic pets that they feel were trained and developed their special bond with, etc etc 
- thru safe proper handling they can be "handled", and that's as far as zookeepers should go ... to a very minimal degree of interaction and for very specific care requirements
... if you ever consider any wild predator "trained" you are setting yourself up to be mauled some day ](*,)
- hopefully you will learn that in school but you should know it already

-- wild animal TRAINERS are not "training" per se ... and most animals that are used on movie sets have grown up with the handlers and most, but not all, of their predatory instinct has extinguished ... and there are still problems ... they have decades of experience with a certain species and you will NEVER reach that level of competence with a school degree and some work experience


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Easy to train behaviors maybe, not so easy to manage, relatively.

I would get a good sound temperament English Bull terrier.
They will happily sit about all day, love meeting new people, are very clever and trainable (just need the right techniques i.e free shaping) and will get up and do something with you at the drop of a hat, then go right back to chilling when the game is over.
Awesome breed.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Alice ....nice ? =D>=D>=D>
> we'll see about that when the meds wear off =D>=D>=D>
> 
> but it is nice of you to take the time and provide your viewpoints and expertise ,,, please come to Japan and stop by and visit. we can harass some kids chasing pigeons in the park


Can I bring my dog? :twisted:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kalee. 

If you were going to do this, I'd borrow a Mal for a while. It comes down to the particular dog and YOUR idea of what you want. You'd be looking for something pretty specific,(super social, not aggressive towards anything, great obedience in and around very high levels of distraction all of which a malinois can do) and it would need training. If you business is going to be to sell goods, take the opportunity to sell training for a credible trainer. IE you keep a dog in your store they trained, and have a video of their training program, and a dog to demo, and you can sell their program for them and make a small percentage.

If your business is to sell training as well, then you should train your own dog and have it in the store as a demo dog. 


I remember thinking something similar to Alice when I saw your other post, in regards to thinking your education will teach you to train dogs and being offended to hear it wouldn't. It will certainly give you experience, just like my limited horse training has helped my dog training. But being good at something is judged by being good at it, not by being good at something similar or having an education in your field. It's a recipe for disaster to go into anything underestimating your opponent, or overestimating your skill.

I do wish you luck with your training and business. What certification are you working towards with animals?






Kalee Thao said:


> I would think that being with your dog all day is better than going to work and leaving him at home. That way he is always doing something with you and people and won't be as bored.
> 
> Ideas of the dog in the store? As the store mascot he would be greeting customers and just be a presence in the store (not crated). This was a really stupid question actually, since I asked it the moment I thought of the idea of getting a Mal for the shop. The more I'm talking to you guys though, the more I see that it wouldn't be any different than just getting the dog and keeping it at home except that it'd be less bored. "
> 
> ...


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

@rick, only 2% of pet big cats will ever even attack/kill anyone. The exotic pet world is shrouded with all sorts of lies and myths and you have to really look to see the truth. 

Zookeepers don't get to interact with carnivores at zoos, but animal trainers do, and that's the big difference between the two (since otherwise animal trainers do the same tasks as zookeepers). I never claimed that I would be perfect at animal training after I got done with schooling, I only claimed to be able to train a dog afterwards... O-o" A Malinois, no matter how drivey and high-strung, is still, at the end of the day, a DOG, and even the most well-behaved fox, wolf, whatever you wanna throw in there, will still be more of a challenge than any dog. That's why I don't think I'd have a problem with training my own dog. _That's all I said. _Anyone can try to twist that into whatever they want, I don't really care. Moorpark Animal Teaching Zoo says that many of their graduates go on to train dogs as well as wild animals. 

I don't know why everyone is so against me getting a Mal. Are there no homes with working-line Mals with adults who go to work during the day??


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> I would think that being with your dog all day is better than going to work and leaving him at home. That way he is always doing something with you and people and won't be as bored.
> 
> Ideas of the dog in the store? As the store mascot he would be greeting customers and just be a presence in the store (not crated). This was a really stupid question actually, since I asked it the moment I thought of the idea of getting a Mal for the shop. The more I'm talking to you guys though, the more I see that it wouldn't be any different than just getting the dog and keeping it at home except that it'd be less bored. "
> 
> ...


*Points up* And THAT statement is the biggest advocate for why you should NOT take a mali.... ](*,)#-o:roll:=;

Maybe you should get a lion! Seems to me you got a handle on those :lol:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kalee Thao;376307 A Malinois said:


> Talk to a few people that have worn a dog about what it feels like to get bit by ONLY a dog. Not even attacked, but just bit. There is a real crappy feeling that goes along with getting bit by a dog on your leash and realizing as it's happening that YOU are the only one that going to stop it. You don't want to go into an encounter with any dog underestimating what it can do. I was out of work for six weeks due to a bite to my hand that lasted a very short time.
> 
> A mistake is a mistake committed by the experienced or uninitiated. Dogs don't care.
> 
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Kalee ... that is VERY misleading statistic. PM me if you want to know why, but if you re-read my response carefully it will lead you to why 

regarding "no intentions of doing bitework" ...
imo of course .... MOST dogs, especially working/protection breeds, NEED bitework training and when they don't get it, or are discouraged from biting at an early age of development, become PROBLEM dogs when they mature

- i get em all the time
- how do i fix em ?
well, for starters, i teach em bitework


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

This thread has taken a very unfriendly turn. I think I'm going to have to roger out. 

Ps Alice, I'm a strong advocate of exotic pets and am planning on buying land to keep big cats (far in the future, but in the future nevertheless), so you can stop with the smart remarks.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> This thread has taken a very unfriendly turn. I think I'm going to have to roger out.
> 
> Ps Alice, I'm a strong advocate of exotic pets and am planning on buying land to keep big cats (far in the future, but in the future nevertheless), so you can stop with the smart remarks.



I'm a strong advocate of exotic animals living where they should...like nature? 

I am also a strong advocate of people using their brains before they decide on something. You ask an opinion, yet when you get it, you are offended by it. You already decided what you want, you seem to know it all...why in gods name come here and ask people's opinions when you do not want to hear the answers to begin with.

PS Kalee? I will stop with my smart remarks as soon as you stop with your stupid ones... deal ?


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

I don't know why you have to act like owning a Mal is the biggest baddest thing a working family can do. They can be pets too! And in case you didn't read my other comment to you: 



> This was a really stupid question actually, since I asked it the moment I thought of the idea of getting a Mal for the shop. The more I'm talking to you guys though, the more I see that it wouldn't be any different than just getting the dog and keeping it at home except that it'd be less bored. "


So yes, I HAVE already decided what I want and I TOLD you that.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> I don't know why you have to act like owning a Mal is the biggest baddest thing a working family can do. They can be pets too! And in case you didn't read my other comment to you:
> 
> 
> 
> So yes, I HAVE already decided what I want and I TOLD you that.


:roll: (yes I read your comment, yes I chose to ignore it since it was pretty much showing your age, and lack of common sense.) 

Good luck with your petshop, exotic animals, future plans, school, and Working line Mali!

You're going to need it with that attitude of yours.


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

Okay thanks. Good day now.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Kalee Thao said:


> I don't know why you have to act like owning a Mal is the biggest baddest thing a working family can do. They can be pets too! And in case you didn't read my other comment to you:
> 
> 
> 
> So yes, I HAVE already decided what I want and I TOLD you that.


 
Because people care about working line dogs and don't think it belongs in the type of environment you're advocating. 

Let me try to be clear: 

If I was a serious breeder of working malis, you would not get one of mine. It's simple, because you seem to know it all, when you know nothing. 

The concept you're so drawn to, will get you in trouble in the long run. But you're not the only one who's going to be in trouble. All other working line mali owners will have to prove their dogs are safe and all the bullshit that ensues, simply because your "working mali" decided he was going to nail the stupid tree hugger that "all dogs love". 

Add to that, your degree will do nothing for you, because you NEVER handled a working dog, nor have you spent any time at a club learning from someone. 


Hope this helps, 
Tiago


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

Working dogs should be stable and safe in any environment when trained and socialized. I don't understand why people are making them out to be ticking time bombs. Isn't that the whole point of a good working dog? Stability and nerves? Not some irrational crazy dog that could lash out at any second.

Also, I don't understand why everyone thinks if you own a Mal you HAVE to work them in bitework. That was never even their original purpose.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kalee Thao said:


> Working dogs should be stable and safe in any environment when trained and socialized. I don't understand why people are making them out to be ticking time bombs. Isn't that the whole point of a good working dog? Stability and nerves? Not some irrational crazy dog that could lash out at any second.


Are you going to train it yourself?
What other pets (animals) do you plan on stocking your pet shop with?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Kalee Thao said:


> Working dogs should be stable and safe in any environment when trained and socialized. I don't understand why people are making them out to be ticking time bombs. Isn't that the whole point of a good working dog? Stability and nerves? Not some irrational crazy dog that could lash out at any second.


 
And because you believe that, do you think a high drive working line mali is a dog anyone can have?


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

maggie fraser said:


> Are you going to train it yourself?
> What other pets (animals) do you plan on stocking your pet shop with?


Yes and no. I'm going to look into some dog clubs around my area. The pet shop is supplies-only. 

@Tiago, no, most people don't have the time or energy for a Malinois. I do though.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kalee Thao said:


> Yes and no. I'm going to look into some dog clubs around my area. The pet shop is supplies-only.
> 
> @Tiago, no, most people don't have the time or energy for a Malinois. I do though.


Ever had a dog before?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Kalee Thao said:


> Yes and no. I'm going to look into some dog clubs around my area. The pet shop is supplies-only.
> 
> @Tiago, no, most people don't have the time or energy for a Malinois. I do though.


 
It's not about time... you can always find time in your day...

It's about knowing how to stimulate and knowing what is a proper environment and what is not. I can keep a dog in a kennel and only have him out for 3 hours a day and he'll probably be happier than living in that pet shop of yours, enduring all type of crap you will put it through. 

Still lost?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I see on another thread you are still thinking about a serious working line mal to be in a pet shop all day even though you have never had one.

Then you decided to start over with a new thread when responses were fairly mild but honest. People are not ganging up on you but trying to give a reality check based on experience.

I work from home and have a working line shepherd. Not quite a high in the wound up department as a mal but if my dog were not outside during the day and I were not throwing balls, and doing work with him every few hours I think he would climb out of his skin. Being a proper herding dog, he tolerates meet and greets quite well but it is not something he enjoys-I know shepherds are an aloof breed by design and think mals are too. 

When I worked at an office, I spent lot of time before and after work with the dog(s) [different time/different dogs]. All my dogs have been working SAR dogs since 2003 - before that I had pet lines and it was a world of difference. Fortunately I started working from home in 2006.

When you own a business, though, you will be at work early and late and busting your hump if you want it to succeed. If I had a working mal at such a venue, he would be penned in the back during the day and I would be leaving the shop every few hours to work with him [at least have a place to throw balls, have a treadmill, etc]. I would do nosework as you can spend a lot of time doing detection problems in little bits and pieces. Before and after hours he would be loose in the store with me while I was working - but I would also make the time for other activities.

These animals require a lot more than meet and greet and if you are running a business you probably are not going to find that time during the day to provide the dog what it needs. Can they be a pet? Absolutely but only IF they get the time and simulation desired and I think meet and greet would be low on the priority list. You honestly DON"T find a lot of working line mals in pet homes and a lot of working line GSDs wind up in shelters when people are overwhelmed by them. Sometimes they end up as just pets but there are a whole lot of folks breeding "black sable working line dogs" for looks now and toning down working ability so that could be misleading. A real one bred for police duty is a lot of dog.

You can't say that a wild canid is "harder" therefore you have the skills for a working dog. Wild canids are not wired for human engagement and don't "need" it. Plenty of studies on that. Dogs do. Some dogs a lot more so than others.

Oh,..mine does not do bitework but we do a lot with a tug which is his reward for his detection work. He wants to fight..really really really bad; it is all in fun but it is in the genes and does need an outlet I think.

You have to also consider the customer base for a pet store. Who goes into those anymore? Probably not your working dog folks. Fru fru stuff and small exotics and fish. I make my working dog purchases online because pet stores don't stock quality dog equipment and the food I feed.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

And all these reactions don't even start to scratch the surface when it comes to the dog himself and how he will deal with sitting in a pet shop every day, having to be petted by people and having its ears pulled by little kids and having to be a nice soft fluffy pet mascot. Even for a medium or low drive dog this is a hard thing to adjust too, you want to take a working line mali, who probably has more drive than your average pet and subject him to hours and hours of stress? Lets be honest here? Have you even considered for one second the effects it has on the dog? Have you even for one second considered anything but yourself for that matter? From what I can see, uptil now? All you have considered is what you want and the dog will just have to suffer through it for you because you pretty much have your mind made up about the whole thing. 

You havent got the slightest idea of what a dog is to begin with but you are willing to put a working line dog into a stressful situation and than hope your theoretical experiance will save your ass from the consequences.... Yeah right.... That has disaster written all over it. 

But hey, you clearly know what you are doing? What does anyone on this forum know, right? Its not like theres any combined experiance on here that has dealt with Working line malinois for more years then you are probably old. 

Let me help you out... You don't want to get answers? Don't ask the questions!


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Kalee Thao said:


> No, I've never owned one, but activities I plan on doing with my dog is sulky, biking, agility, competitive frisbee, obedience, flyball, and just teaching my dog lots of random tricks to keep up his mental stimulation. I want my dog to be a jack of all trades. That would be my goal.
> 
> 
> 
> No, not protection. We just wanted a mascot for the store and I want a Mal since they are my favorite breed. Working line because I despise show lines of every working breed.


 
some mals with all you referenced still isn't enough....then what?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> No, I've never owned one, but activities I plan on doing with my dog is sulky, biking, agility, competitive frisbee, obedience, flyball, and just teaching my dog lots of random tricks to keep up his mental stimulation. I want my dog to be a jack of all trades. That would be my goal.
> 
> 
> No, not protection. We just wanted a mascot for the store and I want a Mal since they are my favorite breed. Working line because I despise show lines of every working breed.


What you might want to do is hold off on getting a dog (of any description) until you get the store up and running. Starting a new business takes time (lots and lots) plus money. Get yourself and the business settled and see exactly what kind of time you have left. All the activities you describe take time and when you start a business free time is a luxury that you may have little of unless you have a salaried staff. Dogs are very much like a needy child, and working dogs are the neediest. They demand and need alot of time to keep them balanced in neutral.

The activities you have planned all take time. Socialization, obedience, flyball, etc all take a certain amount of time. Also your store will be getting in a wide variety of dogs (most that are not socialized properly to pack behaviors or tolerating strange dogs) and most working line Mals have a certain body carriage and stare about them. That carriage and stare could make a strange dog very reactive and then you have a dog fight. Especially since you plan on letting the dog roam loose (if I'm reading your posts correctly) and any such dog in such an establishment would be considered by the public to be a loving cuddlebug thoughly a bombproof, childproof, non-aggressive companion. Do you feel that a working line Mal will satisfy this criteria? Remember, you will be dealing with customers who know little of canine behavior much less working canine behaviors.

Because it's your dog, in your establishment, you will have the increased liability with regards to public safety because you are inviting the general public in with their dogs. I've had more customer dogs (that rush up to my dogs in pet stores) that their pushy, aggressive posturing, fear-driven nippy behaviors cause a reaction in my dogs which as a breed are not considered aggressive.

I just don't see a working line Mal to benignly tolerating this. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but you may have to screen through alot to find one that will. Have you considered contacting a Mal rescue group and see if what you are suggesting for your dog would be suitable. They might even have a working line individual in their rescue that would suit your situation that was turned in because the previous owner found they didn't have the time that type of dog needed (which you feel you have). 

Personally, I would hold off getting a dog until you get the business up and running then introduce a dog into the mix.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

To answer the original question, my opinion is no. Take it from someone who thought they thought they knew what they were getting into when they got a mal. They are more work than you think. I have one that she could run 6 miles on the treadmill and a good clip, at a decent incline. Lay down for about 30 minutes and she was bouncing off the walls again. Now that she's a little more mature she's a little better. A very little. Before we got her, she was adopted out for 30 minutes to an "experienced" dog person, who brought her back and said, "I can't deal with this." dropped the leash and left. At least that's the story I was told anyway. 

Outside of all the work they are, I think you underestimate the amount of work you will be putting into the business. 

My suggestions. 1. as has been said, borrow a mal for a few weeks. I think that will tell you all you need to know. and 2. If you insist on going that route, establish the business first. I think there are plenty of other more important issues when starting a storefront type business that need to be worked out than working on a mascott. and 3. REAAAAAALLLLLLY LONG AND HARD think about the liability, not just for a mal, but any dog. They are not machines or robots. They are dogs, they make mistakes. I would hope your animal training program would have ingrained that in your head with all animals, especially ones that way thousands of pounds.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Dang, we must have been typing at the same time! 



Sarah Platts said:


> What you might want to do is hold off on getting a dog (of any description) until you get the store up and running. Starting a new business takes time (lots and lots) plus money. Get yourself and the business settled and see exactly what kind of time you have left. All the activities you describe take time and when you start a business free time is a luxury that you may have little of unless you have a salaried staff. Dogs are very much like a needy child, and working dogs are the neediest. They demand and need alot of time to keep them balanced in neutral.
> 
> The activities you have planned all take time. Socialization, obedience, flyball, etc all take a certain amount of time. Also your store will be getting in a wide variety of dogs (most that are not socialized properly to pack behaviors or tolerating strange dogs) and most working line Mals have a certain body carriage and stare about them. That carriage and stare could make a strange dog very reactive and then you have a dog fight. Especially since you plan on letting the dog roam loose (if I'm reading your posts correctly) and any such dog in such an establishment would be considered by the public to be a loving cuddlebug thoughly a bombproof, childproof, non-aggressive companion. Do you feel that a working line Mal will satisfy this criteria? Remember, you will be dealing with customers who know little of canine behavior much less working canine behaviors.
> 
> ...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

A stable temperament (for me anyway) means predictable, unchanging it doesn't necessarily mean nice, lol.
Kalee, you have made the statement that plenty of people have pet Mals. I would suggest that a pet environment would actually be easier than what you are suggesting.
I have a Mal puppy, she is 17 weeks old, it's my first mal but not my first working dog.
I have lived around and owned working dogs my whole life and even so, I am having a few eye openers with this pup.
He temperament is 'stable' her drive is high, her energy is high, her prey drive is through the roof, she has a great on/off switch, she WOULD probably sit round all day in your shop, she is biddable, she is a fast learner but a bit stoopid IMO, she is fairly neutral to people, however her temper is fierce and her reactions are faster and more vicious than I have ever experienced before, she is such a dominant bitch that sometimes she nearly lifts her leg to pee, she made herself known perfectly clearly in my house by 10 weeks old to my working dobes (which were 10 times her size and no pushovers) , my staffy (who herself is pretty nasty when she wants to be) and my English bull terrier
Point is if it was my shop, I wouldn't pick her to come to work with me, not at her age, once she is trained then yes I may consider it. My reasons I wouldn't pick her is, she is mostly people neutral but she does not suffer fools.
IF something was to go wrong it would be devastating and too fast to do anything about while I busied myself with a customer.
I just wouldn't want to put that stress on myself in the early days of my future business, it will be stressfull enough.
You say Mals are your favourite breed, yet you have not owned/lived with one?
Have you met any?
Have you been watching you tube vids of them doing amazing OB stuff?
They are a great breed but not the most suited to what you are proposing.

Like I said I have lived round and owned working dogs since I was born, that's my whole life, the last time I had a dog that was as much work as this one, it was an old school Doberman that basically needed a good shoeing to finally sort out.
A working line Mal is not a first dog for most people. Maybe you are not most people, if not then great!
I would say you should listen to these folks advice, some of it sounds a bit harsh but seriously, you don't want to be down the line thinking '**** I wish I had listened to Alice....'


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I will stop with my smart remarks as soon as you stop with your stupid ones... deal ?


I want this as my signature.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

TX for the PM refs, but i still think you are the one who is out of touch Kalee ... the "02%" ref you posted here is irrelevant to what i wrote 

BUT..... since you went on more about how you intend you get into big cats .... 

1. it is obvious to most people that the TRUTH is : 
- big cats belong in the wild ONLY, and any others that have been spawned from"exotics for profit" breeders, should be bought/rescued by professional facilities, that are fully equipped and staffed to keep them safely and securely, to live out their miserable lives in relative peace AWAY from people, not to "observed" in order to financially support the rescue facility. we have zoos for those people

2. as of 2002 : 19 states ban private ownership of big cats, 15 require only a license or permit, and the remaining 16 have no regulations at all ...THOSE are the statistics that you should be involved with, by trying to change 19 into FIFTY !! .... just because "xx thousands" of people keep big cats caged, and don't get killed by them, by NO means justifies them doing so. if you think keeping a big cat caged is cool, try locking yourself in a caged area for a couple months and have your boyfriend or girlfriend toss you a few big macs every day, but never touch you or enter your cage, and of course no conversation is allowed either. and make sue he misses a few days of feeding you when he "gets the flu", and takes a few extra hours to clean out your poop sometimes. that might give you a decent picture of an average big cat owner

3. here is a MUCH safer and simpler way to prove my point and get the message across to you :

...start with FERAL cats ... go out and round up a few ... train them ... get your boyfriend or whoever to youtube your progress
** RULES : NO shelter cats and no cheating by snatching kittens out of litters ... i'm talking full grown FERALS that DON'T approach people for handouts ... the kind that will not run when you back them into a corner .... i'd be surprised if you could even trap/catch them, let alone train them, but i'm willing to believe in you if you show progress. if you can't understand feral feline behavior, no school in the world can teach you about big cats
...this will also require some training expertise that you don't need to pay a school to obtain and it is a great way to take the stuff u learn and apply it to the real world

- btw, you can do this while you are deciding whether to open a pet shop or go to the animal training school. seems like a perfect match for you and when you document your training expertise and build up some credibility, lots of people will take notice
- one last piece of advice .... HexArmor is your friend 

sound like a doable plan ??
good luck
listen and LEARN from people who post here. i'm no guru, but a lot of them have way more experience than you do. opposition reflex is no good. from a "relative" younger person it shows immaturity 

btw, in a "former life" i did a LOT of work with feral cats ... so on that side i'm close to being a guru //lol//


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kalee Thao said:


> @rick, only 2% of pet big cats will ever even attack/kill anyone. The exotic pet world is shrouded with all sorts of lies and myths and you have to really look to see the truth.
> 
> Zookeepers don't get to interact with carnivores at zoos, but animal trainers do, and that's the big difference between the two (since otherwise animal trainers do the same tasks as zookeepers). I never claimed that I would be perfect at animal training after I got done with schooling, I only claimed to be able to train a dog afterwards... O-o" A Malinois, no matter how drivey and high-strung, is still, at the end of the day, a DOG, and even the most well-behaved fox, wolf, whatever you wanna throw in there, will still be more of a challenge than any dog. That's why I don't think I'd have a problem with training my own dog. _That's all I said. _Anyone can try to twist that into whatever they want, I don't really care. Moorpark Animal Teaching Zoo says that many of their graduates go on to train dogs as well as wild animals.
> 
> I don't know why everyone is so against me getting a Mal. Are there no homes with working-line Mals with adults who go to work during the day??


Do the animal trainers at the zoo have to FORCE the large carnivores to be under their CONTROL all the time? Are the large carnivores mascots, that people and kids interact with all day long in a pet store?

If you are thinking of getting a great NVBK dog from one of the best breeders and keeping it in an apartment and taking it to hang out and be a mascot at a pet store, you may as well just get a Bengal Tiger instead, it may be very comparable in reality.

You know that the best NVBK dogs are bred to have almost zero inhibitions to biting people, and are bred to want to fight people right?

that and an internal desire to bite anything else really. And that they are usually very dominant animals.

What do you do, assuming you dont get attacked yourself, when the dog determines it does not like people, and decides that his job is to guard your store from "intruders" (your customers), and thinks everyone is a suspect?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

:lol: Its free for the taking 


leslie cassian said:


> I want this as my signature.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

The best thing that can happen here is she get a higher drive dog that trashes the place, mounts the her when she bends over and gives her a nip in the ass out of frustration when pulled off the mount. “It’s best to just let the dog finish” .
Then her go around and tell everyone what bad dogs they are and she is trying to find it a home. (she will then likely call the local PDs around town try to donate it/ sell it cheap because she thinks it would make a great cop dog...even though its scared of thunder) 
That’s the best case

One of the many bad cases is her going to a breaded and the breeder giving her a solid nerved but sleepy dog that actually works out for her. The breeder will know what he sold her and other dog people will know but this chick will think she has a high drive dog and mastered handling it due to her extensive experience in training elephants. 
Then she goes around and tells everyone what great dogs they are and you can leave a deposit because we are going to be selling the pups in a few months. 
JMO


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Question? How old are you? I'm thinking 18 or 19 at best?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Let me be crude for a moment. Don't take a dog because people tell you not to take it. All you have done so far is ask questions, didn't like the answers and dug in deeper persisting you knew what you were doing when everything you have said up til now shows that you are pretty much clueless about it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you have never owned a mali, or even a dog for that matter. Take your time and do things right, do not rush or speed into things when you have no clear idea about the outcome. Everyone on this topic has had a say, myself included. Not all of it was nice, again, myself included. Here's the thing, Kalee... We have all been your age, we have all wanted to do things that wern't all that bright to begin with....and lets face it...we all did the not so bright things even tho we were warned more then once...why? we knew better then the people with actual experiance! We knew it all and no one was going to tell us any different! And the more they did tell us different, the deeper we would dig in because god forbid we actually gave an inch!

Sad fact is tho? I'm 44 now and I wish I had listened to those people who warned me, the ones who already knew, the ones who tried to help me to not make mistakes....

I've been training KNPV dogs for almost 25 years now...I've pretty much seen it all and then some. Be smart and think again before you do something you will regret and trust me kalee...you will regret it!

I know we all need to make our own mistakes and learn from them but dont make those mistakes for the sake of an arguement or because you think you know better when in the back of your mind you probably know that what you are thinking isn't all that smart to begin with.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Chris- LMAO!
Although highly amusing I think she requires help not flaming, lol

I think age is relevant, but not in a bad way. She has optimism and enthusiasm on her side. The stubbornness and self belief probably come from young age, life hasn't blunted her yet, very handy for starting a new business, not so cool for picking a dog for the business maybe.

For the purpose she wants the dog for other breeds would be way better for the job.
Seriously though if you take this stance against genuine advice about dogs please do not get into a cage with a lion.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Tammy St Louis who is on this board is a dog trainer with her own facility and business that owns lots of mals. She works in a pet store (not hers) very part time, and brings dogs to work there. You should search her out.

Having "the right" mal at a pet store is doable, but I would say that free all day is way more than I would think is reasonable. Your dog should only be free when you can give it 100% attention, especially with strangers and strange dogs around. If you are in the back getting supplies, or helping a customer, and your mal is being ganged up on by some chi dog, or cornered by some weirdos, well... things can happen fast. And if you are always keeping part of your attention on your dog, your customer service might end up suffering.

If you think any animal is a hundred percent predictable in all situations, you will eventually learn a lesson that hurts. 

Instead, you could have a closed off/gated area at the cash where the dog could have its own space and be free from being a side show. You could let the dog out free in the store when you had the time to watch it, and to greet clients and dogs when it was appropriate. Then, when the dog wanted some time to itself, it also has a safe place to go.

It is not UNDOABLE, with the right malinois, training, and set up but you are sounding young and a little cocky and people are protective of the breed and have seen things go wrong. Remember also that you might be able to train your dog to greet unruly dogs and people all day, but that doesn't mean the dog will like it. There are other breeds that you could choose that might like that job better.

The idea of starting your business first, and then getting a dog later is also a good one. Starting a successful business is no small task and can take up extreme amounts of time.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Let me be crude for a moment. Don't take a dog because people tell you not to take it. All you have done so far is ask questions, didn't like the answers and dug in deeper persisting you knew what you were doing when everything you have said up til now shows that you are pretty much clueless about it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you have never owned a mali, or even a dog for that matter. Take your time and do things right, do not rush or speed into things when you have no clear idea about the outcome. Everyone on this topic has had a say, myself included. Not all of it was nice, again, myself included. Here's the thing, Kalee... We have all been your age, we have all wanted to do things that wern't all that bright to begin with....and lets face it...we all did the not so bright things even tho we were warned more then once...why? we knew better then the people with actual experiance! We knew it all and no one was going to tell us any different! And the more they did tell us different, the deeper we would dig in because god forbid we actually gave an inch!

Sad fact is tho? I'm 44 now and I wish I had listened to those people who warned me, the ones who already knew, the ones who tried to help me to not make mistakes....

I've been training KNPV dogs for almost 25 years now...I've pretty much seen it all and then some. Be smart and think again before you do something you will regret and trust me kalee...you will regret it!

I know we all need to make our own mistakes and learn from them but dont make those mistakes for the sake of an arguement or because you think you know better when in the back of your mind you probably know that what you are thinking isn't all that smart to begin with."

.... PLUS 1

...and my suggestion to train feral cats was not meant to be sarcastic...they are free, available anywhere, and a real challenge ... and a great way to start your training career ... when you can hook one up in a harness and walk it in public, you have really gotten somewhere


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

My sister is great at training cats, I'm almost certain she is gonna end up a crazy old cat woman.
Having said that my mother has a cat one of two kittens my pikey mate gave me, they were basically feral when I got them off him the the mother was still bringing them caught food etc basically they just slept in his trailer.
Anyway one died when my dad sat on it and the other one is ****in nuts (the one my mother has) just today when I was round there she was telling me about the rat it had caught for its dinner which was too big for it to kill so it was chasing it round the bloody house all night when there is perfectly good food down in its bowl.
Anyway this cat has been at my mums for 2 years now and even my sister can't train it, the only one that can pick it up without it going ****in nuts is me and I think that is only because I have been handling it since it was born, it still has tantrums now and again.
By the way, none of my dogs will go near that cat. :lol:
Good luck with the feral cat thing.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

DOABLE, sure ....
but to subject a working mal to that environment day in and day out, and then to return to an apartment, would approach a level of dog abuse imo. 
- a pet store is a HUGE distraction for a dog to live in
- we have a few around here with maltese and toy poodles kept there, and i've even seen them run for cover sometimes. not as easy for a working bred mal to do and many would not run; more likely they'd get FED UP if they were good dogs 

and no matter how well it behaves and is trained, it WILL chase off some customers so it also makes no business sense either ](*,)

i can bring my house dog out to our front office anytime, and he will tolerate anything, but i sure as heck don't make it a daily occurrence just because "i can", or because kids want to see him. once a week or so is enuff, and it's good for him. i never stop training; even the simple stuff

all in all, bad bad idea the more i think about it 
... i'm not gonna give it any more thought


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## Tabatha Farnel (Sep 7, 2008)

Kalee Thao said:


> I'm not worried about the dog being aggressive or overly reactive, since Mals are so easy to train that I'm confident I can get rid of any aggression issues.


I don't post often, but this is really f*cking hilarious.

So, you have no interest in bite work, claim that Mals are your favorite breed although you don't seem to have ever interacted with one in real life.

If you want a dog that can hang out and be friendly with strangers all day and be fun to train tricks with, get a Golden. Seriously, a high drive Golden can be a pretty amazing dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tabatha Farnel said:


> ... If you want a dog that can hang out and be friendly with strangers all day and be fun to train tricks with, get a Golden. Seriously, a high drive Golden can be a pretty amazing dog.



You have received some good advice here. Experienced advice.

Someone who really wanted advice would read carefully.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Kalee, everyone told me not to get a Malinois. So I got a German Shepherd. My German Shepherd is as high energy as every Malinois I know. If she's outside her crate in the house, she's in a down stay. If she wasn't, she would literally be bouncing off the walls.

She broke out of a Vari Kennel one night because she knows how to open the doors. I've watched her do it. She's like a monkey with how she pushes the top bar down and pops the bottom one out. It takes her two seconds. When I came home that night, she had opened the door and also forced her way through the multiple carabiners holding the door closed. 

Luckily, my bedroom door was closed. That's because she went into the attached bathroom and not only turned the sink on, she managed to pull the stopper up with her monkey paws. There was so much water in the room that the paint peeled off my walls. We got new carpet, new bedroom furniture and bed sheets and we spent a lot of money.

This was not anxiety based destruction. She absolutely had the time of her life. She also loves water. So when I opened my bedroom door and stepped into water up to my ankles and nearly fainted she was rolling around saying, LOOK MOM! WATER! I LOVE WATER I'M SO HAPPY LET'S GO SWIMMING IN THE BEDROOM OMG SO FUN WEEEEEEEE!

I could not possibly imagine this dog in a pet shop all day every day. The down stays get boring for her quickly. I can picture her at my desk at work some days but I certainly picture the crate there also. I think it would be easier on both of us for her to be crated/kenneled instead of put in a long down all day every day, ESPECIALLY if it is a building full of toys, food and incoming traffic of people and other animals.

I'm not saying it can't be done. But I just think there are dogs that would enjoy being in a pet shop all day FAR more than one specifically bred to work would. My Corgi would be great. He loves just leisurely hanging around with everyone. He especially loves hanging in the garage with the guys when my boyfriend and his friends brew beer. He's sort of like their warehouse dog. That said, he's done sheep herding, we do AKC obedience and tracking now and I have done and want to get him back into flyball.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I should add that I got Danni (GSD) my last semester of college at 22. Conan (Corgi) is 5 now, so I got him at 19. I'm 24 now (a month shy of 25). So I speak from peer experience, haha


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kalee - Why listen to 6 pages of posts from many knowledgeable people telling you to be careful and not to make a mistake! You know all these kind people posting must be NUT CASES. As a teenager you know you can out train any of these MOFO's because you are going to animal training college. You know you can show up all these dudes. Don't take any advice and have it.

It's called the school of hard knocks. Too bad there is another live spirit involved it what's going to end up poorly.](*,)


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

well i am the lady who owns 4 mals ( working line ) and brings them with me to the pet store i work at.... IS it a good idea, i would honestly say no. I am a dog trainer and understand dog behaviour well , I know my dogs, and they are really not pet store type dogs, My boss who owns the store, has a bull terrier and a GPSX they stay at the store all day and go home to a apt at night, they do well with this, but these dogs are 100 % with people and great with dogs, when dogs come in the store though he puts them behind the cash on a down stay on thier beds,,
As for my dogs, I have different personalities in the 4 of them , ALL of them but my newest one have growled at people at the store, ( not good for business) My friendliest one, is still not sure of some people and i watch all the time the interaction to ensure he is feeling ok , if not I call him he goes and sits behind counter till they are gone, Villain my 2nd one, is not really ok with anyone ( not dangerous just not friendly at all ) he will growl at everyone, so with him , everytime someone comes in he is trained to go behind counter and wait till they are done, my 3rd mal is really sable and normally could care less about ANYTHING, just a cool dude, who is now 18 months old and turning into a teenager and he has now growled at some people, my last one Vice is easy going guy so far, he is also 18 months old , seems to be ok with people in general but i always watch ,,
I have 9 dogs , all of them have been at the pet store with me for the last 15 yrs i worked there, the only dogs i have to watch is the mals, 
we are not a busy pet store at all so its not a problem to put them in the back when people come in , and they enjoy coming there with me and hanging with my boss, 
but i would say they are NOT pet store dogs, I watch my dogs ALWAYS with people or dog interaction and remove them right away if they are not sure, its alot of managing them to make it look like there are no issues ,
so my answer is no they are not pet store dogs , and this is from someone who brings their dog to the pet store


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Also, there's nothing wrong with having a Malinois as your active working dog and another dog as the pet shop dog...

I just know my Shepherd, and to me it would be really unfair to keep her in a down stay all day every day while she's in a building full of excitement. I can see her getting very bored and very frustrated.

JMO.


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

I read everyone's answers. I am going to hold off until the store is stable, definitely, and then I'm going to try a demo dog like someone else suggested. I think that would be best. The city is giving us until the end of June to come up with the business plan, so I should have plenty of time to mull this over.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> I read everyone's answers. I am going to hold off until the store is stable, definitely, and then I'm going to try a demo dog like someone else suggested. I think that would be best. The city is giving us until the end of June to come up with the business plan, so I should have plenty of time to mull this over.


Foster a rescue! Better than a demo dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kalee Thao said:


> I read everyone's answers. I am going to hold off until the store is stable, definitely, and then I'm going to try a demo dog like someone else suggested. I think that would be best. The city is giving us until the end of June to come up with the business plan, so I should have plenty of time to mull this over.


Take my female Dutchie for a couple of demo weeks. Her "BUSINESS PLAN" is eat all strangers.:-D


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kalee Thao said:


> I would think that being with your dog all day is better than going to work and leaving him at home. That way he is always doing something with you and people and won't be as bored.
> 
> Ideas of the dog in the store? As the store mascot he would be greeting customers and just be a presence in the store (not crated). This was a really stupid question actually, since I asked it the moment I thought of the idea of getting a Mal for the shop. The more I'm talking to you guys though, the more I see that it wouldn't be any different than just getting the dog and keeping it at home except that it'd be less bored. "
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to laugh but:

"as a mascot he would be greeting customers and just be a presence in the store"

I have the very funny feeling that your sales would decline rapidly.

I wish I could help you but I think you really need to think this over.

Malinois are dogs not naive shop assistants.

Please forgive me for my mirth.


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

@Katie, aren't rescues riddled with behavioral issues? I guess I could always try that. I love the idea of helping out rescue dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There are a number of humans riddled with behavioural issues on here and not too few - why not start on us?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kalee Thao said:


> I love the idea of helping out rescue dogs.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> @Katie, aren't rescues riddled with behavioral issues? I guess I could always try that. I love the idea of helping out rescue dogs.


Not always. And in terms of Malinois, a rescue is apt to have as many issues as any other Malinois except that it just doesn't have any training.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> @Katie, aren't rescues riddled with behavioral issues? I guess I could always try that. I love the idea of helping out rescue dogs.


Not all dogs. Yes, at times, with some dogs, but so can puppies. And breed rescue has all ages and types. Some end up in rescue through no fault of their own: owner dies, new baby in the family, new wife doesn't like dog hair on the furniture, etc Some do have behavior issues through poor human management skills but could be corrected by the right handling/right owner. If the breed rescue is doing their job they would have already done some preliminary vetting and temperment testing in order to place into an appropriate home. They can steer you toward the right dog for your situation and away from ones that might be to much or beyond the owner's skill level.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Not all dogs. Yes, at times, with some dogs, but so can puppies. And breed rescue has all ages and types. Some end up in rescue through no fault of their own: owner dies, new baby in the family, new wife doesn't like dog hair on the furniture, etc Some do have behavior issues through poor human management skills but could be corrected by the right handling/right owner. If the breed rescue is doing their job they would have already done some preliminary vetting and temperment testing in order to place into an appropriate home. They can steer you toward the right dog for your situation and away from ones that might be to much or beyond the owner's skill level.


This was my thought when I made the suggestion  Sarah just words things better than me.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> There are a number of humans riddled with behavioural issues on here and not too few - why not start on us?


I resemble that remark!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

stick with cotton tailed rabbits...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kalee Thao said:


> @Katie, aren't rescues riddled with behavioral issues? I guess I could always try that. I love the idea of helping out rescue dogs.


 
You are confident of your training prowess to handle aggression and a NVBK Malinois but you're worried about the behavior issues that a rescue can have? Many years ago I placed a puppy mill rescue dog that reeked intelligence and trainability. He went on to be a ranked agility dog. 

Seriously, for what you want, I recommend a solid golden retriever--social for cutsie meet/greet; tranability drive.

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

The AKC obedience bred Goldens really are neat to watch. But I guess technically they are show dogs since they aren't bred for field work as far as I know...?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> The AKC obedience bred Goldens really are neat to watch. But I guess technically they are show dogs since they aren't bred for field work as far as I know...?


 
Well, as everyone knows, I find the whole working vs. show thing irrelevant--probably since I have a house full of working show-line bred dogs. As far as the poster is concerned, it sounds like she wants something that she knows nothing about which is completely baffling. Same on the show thing---all show is baaaaadddddd but how much interaction have you had with it other than the dribble on BC Boards. A high energy go, go, go drive dog is not ideal for a shop dog. As a business person you don't have all day to work with it and keep it entertained; there are liability issues; and it takes a mature trained dog to handle the situation and you would never have it just "loose." You think you can predict a dog's reaction to any stimuli, human or animal that it comes into contact with??? That's pretty damn cocky. Stable and trained have nothing to do with it. Dogs are animals with instincts and an ablity to read other animals far greater than most of their human counterparts. At what age are you going to get this dog? There are so many issues and red flags here that working vs. show is the least of them. I haven't seen anything that hints at EXPERIENCE with any dog. Only, I've done big cats, how deep can it be? Hell, get a retired field trial dog or even greyhound--work with it, train it, learn dogs. Don't just assume.

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, as everyone knows, I find the whole working vs. show thing irrelevant--probably since I have a house full of working show-line bred dogs. As far as the poster is concerned, it sounds like she wants something that she knows nothing about which is completely baffling. Same on the show thing---all show is baaaaadddddd but how much interaction have you had with it other than the dribble on BC Boards. A high energy go, go, go drive dog is not ideal for a shop dog. As a business person you don't have all day to work with it and keep it entertained; there are liability issues; and it takes a mature trained dog to handle the situation and you would never have it just "loose." You think you can predict a dog's reaction to any stimuli, human or animal that it comes into contact with??? That's pretty damn cocky. Stable and trained have nothing to do with it. Dogs are animals with instincts and an ablity to read other animals far greater than most of their human counterparts. At what age are you going to get this dog? There are so many issues and red flags here that working vs. show is the least of them. I haven't seen anything that hints at EXPERIENCE with any dog. Only, I've done big cats, how deep can it be? Hell, get a retired field trial dog or even greyhound--work with it, train it, learn dogs. Don't just assume.
> 
> T


I don't think the show thing is irrelevant as far as getting a dog for a specific task is concerned, but I have nothing against the show ring. I'm perfectly happy letting everyone do their thing and there's no denying that the show breeders can and do breed nice dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> I don't think the show thing is irrelevant as far as getting a dog for a specific task is concerned, but I have nothing against the show ring. I'm perfectly happy letting everyone do their thing and there's no denying that the show breeders can and do breed nice dogs.


Test/select for the task. I test/evaluate a puppy regardless of bloodline. Read about detection dogs selected from shelters. There is inadequate every where. Sometimes what people describe as "drive" in a working line dog, I wouldn't describe as drive at all--but that's another thread.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kalee Thao said:


> @Katie, aren't rescues riddled with behavioral issues? I guess I could always try that. I love the idea of helping out rescue dogs.


OK. Who are you really? Who's joking around here?? Good one. You got us all for several posts. Funny


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

She's on Face Book Dave so she must be a real person ;-)


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Kalee, I sent you a couple of PMs. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I have been where you are. I came on here a few years ago asking if a Malinois could live in an apartment and people (many of the same people here) told me that I'd be getting rid of it in six months, that I was being selfish and that I was young and fresh out of college and my lifestyle wouldn't fit a working dog.

They were horrifically wrong. While I did get a German Shepherd (though it was my first and last and I've got a Malinois on the way), she is extremely high maintenance and really isn't much less (or any less) than the Malinois I've met and trained with. 

I knew what I wanted and I still know what I want in terms of a dog. I understand it's not common for someone my age to be so sure of things, and I'm not saying they might not change. 

But I'd love to help you get your feet wet and see the world of working dogs and be a part of it. I was really lucky that I found a club that was so willing to teach me the ropes and even let me handle one of their old retired dogs (this was a FR club, before I got into IPO). I'm still so grateful for that, and then for finding the amazing friends I did in IPO.

SO...come train with us. Check your PMs and get back to me!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> OK. Who are you really? Who's joking around here?? Good one. You got us all for several posts. Funny


 
After reading Kalee's bio, I'm still wondering how does a minor have contact with exotics; particularly lions--or is this a future thing? She just graduated from high school [age 17-18] and she's writing a business plan for city approval for a pet shop business?

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> After reading Kalee's bio, I'm still wondering how does a minor have contact with exotics; particularly lions--or is this a future thing? She just graduated from high school [age 17-18] and she's writing a business plan for city approval for a pet shop business?
> 
> T


18 is not a minor?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> 18 is not a minor?


 Since she just graduated from high school, I wasn't assuming she was 18 necessarily. I was done with high school at age 17. My son is a senior in high school and is age 18 and the law still considers him an unemancipated minor in most areas. But state laws can vary on that subject. I was thinking the exotic experience was more than a few months from prior posts. 


T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I would rather think someone was poking fun, than having what she is saying be real.

At this point, T, I don't think she has touched an exotic animal. I think it was her plan. She didn't elaborate when I asked how far she'd gone in training animals. Could have been an oversight.

If she is real, I hope she does well and channels her enthusiasm to something that works for her and any animals she works. Enthusiasm is something that too many people have had removed with bad experiences. We train like the animals do, and I hope if she's real, she doesn't lose her enthusiasm through bad experiences.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> After reading Kalee's bio, I'm still wondering how does a minor have contact with exotics; particularly lions--or is this a future thing? She just graduated from high school [age 17-18] and she's writing a business plan for city approval for a pet shop business?
> 
> T


And apparantly she can spend 20.000$ a year for Moorpark college as well.... 

I never had that kind of cash at 18


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I would rather think someone was poking fun, than having what she is saying be real.
> 
> At this point, T, I don't think she has touched an exotic animal. I think it was her plan. She didn't elaborate when I asked how far she'd gone in training animals. Could have been an oversight.
> 
> If she is real, I hope she does well and channels her enthusiasm to something that works for her and any animals she works. Enthusiasm is something that too many people have had removed with bad experiences. We train like the animals do, and I hope if she's real, she doesn't lose her enthusiasm through bad experiences.


 
Ohhhhhh. Like you, I think getting young people involved in dogs is something we all strive to do and support. I raised a musician who can read a dog as well as I can but chose a cat because when he was 8 and said he wanted a dog, I told him how much work he would have to do and opted out saying he wasn't old enough. He's off to college in a few months and I'm going to have to deal with his 11 year old cat. We had someone here on the forum that was thinking Mals and then spent a weekend with a friend and several of them and opted out. With that brawn and speed, i envisioned having a helper and someone to run my dogs in agility. Wasted!! I always try to reserve comment because I haven't LIVED with one and I believe that to know it, you need to live with it. I'm all for enthusiasm but with the type of dog she is thinking of getting there is too much room for someone to get hurt, including her--if she is real.

But thinking about it, my kid is similar. Everything is no problem and its not that deep and he can conquer the world. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> And apparantly she can spend 20.000$ a year for Moorpark college as well....
> 
> I never had that kind of cash at 18


Quit hatin'. You guys kill me looking up stuff. There is such a thing as scholarships, financial aid, PARENTS!!, etc. I didn't know they had such programs. Sounds cool. 

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> And apparantly she can spend 20.000$ a year for Moorpark college as well....
> 
> I never had that kind of cash at 18


Neither did I, but I went to a university and walked away with a double major Bachelor's. We have this thing called financial aid that is awesome, and student loans if you can't get enough aid. And let's face it, some people are just well off and just because we aren't we shouldn't hate them for it. I'm pretty sure Kalee is not a CEO taking huge bonuses while her employees suffer.

I know what it's like to struggle and work full time while going to college, but I had the drive and ambition to get a double major done in 4.5 years. I graduated at 22 and got my first working dog and have since done pretty well at IPO for my first time around.

If this was your daughter wouldn't you want someone to open their arms and help her see the world of working dogs?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I concur.........


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> ...and I hope if she's real, she doesn't lose her enthusiasm through bad experiences.


Bad experiences? You mean like everyone here belittling her and telling her she'll never succeed?

I'd say it's people like you killing her enthusiasm, not a bad experience with an animal.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Bad experiences? You mean like everyone here belittling her and telling her she'll never succeed?
> 
> I'd say it's people like you killing her enthusiasm, not a bad experience with an animal.


That's exactly what I said Katie.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Kalee, I sent you a couple of PMs. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I have been where you are. I came on here a few years ago asking if a Malinois could live in an apartment and people (many of the same people here) told me that I'd be getting rid of it in six months, that I was being selfish and that I was young and fresh out of college and my lifestyle wouldn't fit a working dog.
> 
> They were horrifically wrong. While I did get a German Shepherd (though it was my first and last and I've got a Malinois on the way), she is extremely high maintenance and really isn't much less (or any less) than the Malinois I've met and trained with.


Katie are you talking about this thread? If I'm reading it correctly, the overwhelming majority of the membership who responded to you were supportive of you and what you wanted to do.:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f50/malinois-apartment-16193/


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Katie are you talking about this thread? If I'm reading it correctly, the overwhelming majority of the membership who responded to you were supportive of you and what you wanted to do.:
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f50/malinois-apartment-16193/


Katie I think the reason people are responding so differently on this thread from the way they responded to you on your thread is two fold. Look at the way you responded on your thread vs the way Kalee has responded to people on this thread and all the other threads she started on this board - a world of difference. The other thing is I think many people (myself included), are not sure Kalee is who she says she is, but in my case, I decided to just ignore Kalee while others voiced their doubts. It's frustrating that some people have a perverse need to flood message boards just to rile people up, but unfortunately some people do. It could be that Kalee is not one of these people or maybe she is, only time will tell.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Reality can have a kill-joy effect or "thanks for saving my a**" effect. One of the traits Mals are known for is the drive level, but what about social aggression? I see it as a potentially dangerous enterprise. People could sit back and say nothing rather than being accused of being a kill-joy but they want to try to keep her from making a grave mistake. I still am curious as to why a Mal, which she has never had is her favorite as opposed to any other breed of dog she has read about. I wonder if she knows/understands all the possibilities in the range of temperament-particularly when she starts inquiring about NVBK.


T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

grrrrr wheres the like button!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I understand, but the girl needs help, not harassment. If she ventures out to a local Schutzhund or ring club she can see the dogs work and learn more about their personalities.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

yes, and then will be told that getting an NVBK dog from the best breeders does not a mascot make...


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> yes, and then will be told that getting an NVBK dog from the best breeders does not a mascot make...


I'm assuming it will be realized that none of the dogs we train would make great pet store mascots...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> I'm assuming it will be realized that none of the dogs we train would make great pet store mascots...


Why would you assume that given the information on this thread ? Just curious.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> I understand, but the girl needs help, not harassment. If she ventures out to a local Schutzhund or ring club she can see the dogs work and learn more about their personalities.


The thing is, she asked and got answered to begin with...

You say she wants help not harrasment.. I say, don't ask questions if you do not want to hear the answers?

There are plenty of people who are willing to help, myself included. That however becomes a problem when the person asking a question already knows all the answers... If you already know everything, then why in gods name come on this forum and start asking?

Asking help and actually taking it are 2 completely different things.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> I'm assuming it will be realized that none of the dogs we train would make great pet store mascots...


eh..there are several dogs that I know personally that belong to people on here, that would make excellent pet shop mascots...but I do get your drift for sure...


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Why would you assume that given the information on this thread ? Just curious.


She might think she wants one as a pet shop dog for a while, but if she sees them for what they are both working and outside the field/whatever it's going to be something she can't deny.

She wants one as a working dog, and I think she should have a chance at that. If she's dedicated, we can help her. If she's hopeless, then we can't. And that's that! Haha


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> eh..there are several dogs that I know personally that belong to people on here, that would make excellent pet shop mascots...but I do get your drift for sure...


Yeah, I know. But let's not make it too confusing lol


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> I understand, but the girl needs help, not harassment.



When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
Kalee isn't ready so all the advise is falling on deaf ears now :-(


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kalee isn't ready so all the advise is falling on deaf ears now :-(


It sounds like she actually kind of did finally get the picture and may be learning something? This response showed a bit of maturity. 




Kalee Thao said:


> I read everyone's answers. I am going to hold off until the store is stable, definitely, and then I'm going to try a demo dog like someone else suggested. I think that would be best. The city is giving us until the end of June to come up with the business plan, so I should have plenty of time to mull this over.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think we need to give Kaylee a break now. She listened and has a good plan and time to execute it.

I would also put a plug in for a good *Field Bred *Golden. There is one on our team and it is a really neat dog. Loves everyone. Plenty of drive. Solid nerves. Not like those pet Goldens people have. But he can settle and be mellow with the best of them.

I think it would be a right fun dog all the way around


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think we need to give Kaylee a break now. She listened and has a good plan and time to execute it.
> 
> I would also put a plug in for a good *Field Bred *Golden. There is one on our team and it is a really neat dog. Loves everyone. Plenty of drive. Solid nerves. Not like those pet Goldens people have. But he can settle and be mellow with the best of them.
> 
> I think it would be a right fun dog all the way around


WHY get a golden, when you can get a top police bred NVBK Mali?


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

I think this chick has nice goldens. http://www.bridgetcarlsen.com/source/dogs.html


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Especially the one in the middle Moolah.
I bet Bridget Carlsen doesn't get called Chick too often


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I was gonna say I rekon the op been watching this vid of Moolah but doesn't realize how good a trainer Bridget is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtvlvi5zB3s&feature=youtu.be

and now I am going to watch it again cos not only is the dog fantastic but the trainer is very hot......lol

Edit: I wonder if anyone can explain the muzzle tapping she is doing, I have never worked that one out.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt,

Be careful saying how hot Bridget is.
Her BF is a WDF member


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Any dog would be a bad choice in a pet shop. Unless of course you like repeating "It's not for sale."


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I guess it's the way you train the dog.

I was surprised to see that one of my dog's littermates, trialled at Worlds, Dylan Randegger Schloss, spent the tiime he was not training mostly in his owner's hairdressing salon, quietly and unoffensively.

It can be done but I don't think I could have brought his brother to do this, especially as I am not the best hairdresser out. Darach loved people but I cannot see him lying quietly for long. 

However, as I say, this is training.


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

I bring my mal to table with me at various conventions with packs of drunken morons who think they are dog whisperers dressed in large fuzzy animal costumes...often with squeakers in the limbs....

I've also brought him to my friend's toystore....he's tabled with me at various pet expos, etc....

he's been fine....and has never done ANYTHING that has made me think I can't trust him.


that being said this wasn't something I planned on doing with him when I got him, and I would not get a malinois expecting to do things like this with it (traveling TO the conventions and being sane in the hotel room=yes...after training and a few carefully timed test periods, actually participate=no). I focus on confidence and neutrality, my dog is naturally VERY social (someone switched that part of his brain with a lab or something).

The big difference between what I do and the petstore thing is that in my case the dog is ALWAYS on leash. I'm pretty stationary at my table/booth which is always against a wall so he's got a safe comfortable place where no one can run up to him and he's always supervised. This is a dog who legitimately loves most people and enjoys being pet. If he approaches a person without express permission it's a correctable offense, he is not allowed to go make contact with people, from the position I stick him in no one can just run up to him either.

Considering my usual venues he does bring in buisness than he drives away because he's a dog "oooooh puppy syndrome" plus he does cute non-threatening tricks because he's smart and can play the average sweet-old-lady-dog-lover with treats in her pocket like a violin. However there are people particularly with kids who will hurry their kids away when he's at the table, but are totally okay with my less intimidating happy cattle dog....malinois are "scary" to many people, and even(especially?) knowing the breed if one came bounding up to me in a shop even in a friendly manner I'd be out of there. I mean my dog loved our decoy too, greeted him with joy and excitement...

I don't think rolling the dice on getting a mal that could (and more importantly, would be happy and safe) in a petstore all day long is not a good idea without a lot more planning. Is sounds like the plan for the store is still in it's infancy, I wouldn't be worried about a store mascot. If you do want to try it build a nice quiet kennel in the back with maybe one side able to be opened to the customer area. I wouldn't ever let the dog wander the store unless there was two door entry and even then what about other dogs? I know I've had dogs react poorly to my mal just due to the speed he moves at. He's dog friendly and non-confrontational so I've never had an issue...but him off leash and an unfamiliar dog coming into a petstore on leash? No way...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Matt,
> 
> Be careful saying how hot Bridget is.
> Her BF is a WDF member


Cool, maybe he can explain the muzzle tapping for me! I really wanna know


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Cool, maybe he can explain the muzzle tapping for me! I really wanna know


where in the timeline of the video,

I'll admit I skimmed it, and did not watch the entire thing straight through..I did see lots of targeting the dog to the hand though, getting dog to touch the target hand with the muzzle.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the muzzle tapping....
..from what i remember watching it :
- maybe a perfect example of how 2 different people will see the same thing and explain it in very different ways ?
... i'm with Joby and his explanation 

i don't think she was trying to reach out and tap the dog on the muzzle at all ...
rather a simple technique (many people use ?) to get the dog to target/touch your palm with its nose ... i do it with many dogs to lure them into position...sort of a "place" command for the dog's muzzle ...lots of uses once the dog gets it, and will not bite the hand that's handed to them //lol//

i also use it to desensitize hand shy dogs that have been smacked a lot in the "former life" :-(

is that what you were referring to ?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

no she gets the dog in a stargazing heel position, then taps the underjaw, I wanna know cos she does awesome training and it has always puzzled me


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> no she gets the dog in a stargazing heel position, then taps the underjaw, I wanna know cos she does awesome training and it has always puzzled me


time at point of tap in video? link?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

gomenasai .... guess i should watch again if what i said doesn't apply to what you saw 

so did you ask her ???????
can't you post about a youtube vid ?
maybe her BF might have read your comments here .....

this one should be an easy day


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtvlvi5zB3s&feature=youtu.be

2:56 and 3:21


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtvlvi5zB3s&feature=youtu.be
> 
> 2:56 and 3:21


yeah...just a guess, but just tapping, keeping more action, keeping head up....could be wrong here obviously.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would also "guess" it to be keeping the dog's head up.


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