# Do you leave your dog loose?



## Haz Othman

Do you leave your working/sport dog loose in the house? If so at what age? Specifically interested in GSD/Mals. 

My current phenom is still a pup but the ultimate goal is for her to be loose in the house to fulfill her role as a PPD. She is a lot busier then any of the previous dogs I have had in here before including a dutchie and cannot be uncrated for more then 15 mins even with supervision. She is also the highest drive dog I have had so thats the trade off I guess. 

Anyways curious how and when y'all do it.


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## lynn oliver

My shepherd is loose, my Doberman was until he ate the sofa!


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## Guy Williams

I always bring my dogs in the house even if they are going to live in kennels or aren't going to stay with me. I think you end up with more polite dogs and i like them house trained as it tends to stop them pissing in buildings if they were doing a long search.

I tend to crate train them and keep them in the house for the first 6 months and wean them into a kennel when I am happy they are confident on their own. I will also leave them unattended in the house once I know they are house trained and wont eat everything. That is different for each dog. My last 3 pups were GSd the one before that was a mal.


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## Matt Vandart

Lol, I have two dobes, two Mals, one staffy and an English bull terrier loose in my house.


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## Hunter Allred

Matt Vandart said:


> Lol, I have two dobes, two Mals, one staffy and an English bull terrier loose in my house.


Thats a lot of poop & pee if you get caught in bad traffic lol


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## susan tuck

My 7 year old GSD has the run of the house. My 2 year old GSD is only allowed run of the house if I'm here...and awake!


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## Matt Vandart

Hunter Allred said:


> Thats a lot of poop & pee if you get caught in bad traffic lol


No shit dude!
Nah I got a dog flap and all but the puppy are totally house broken. I have outdoor kennels for the mals, but the dobe are poofs, so they stay in the house with the bullies. 
Its a load of fun when they are all inside:
http:// http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0eZc9UnlHw8


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## Hunter Allred

Matt Vandart said:


> No shit dude!
> Nah I got a dog flap and all but the puppy are totally house broken. I have outdoor kennels for the mals, but the dobe are poofs, so they stay in the house with the bullies.
> Its a load of fun when they are all inside:
> http:// http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0eZc9UnlHw8


lol I put a flap into my garage for the same reason... if I get stuck late at work or someone gets sick I have to deal with the occasional garage poop, but nothing is quite as frustrating as ending a long work day to a vomit-inducing home that you cannot enjoy a beer in lol.

Mine are quite active also... rather than assisting in vacuuming or other cleaning tasks, they are more on the supply end... 

they handle the unpacking of all incoming amazon shipments
another


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## Catherine Gervin

my pup has always been at liberty, first in our apartment, and now in the house, and she is wonderful so long as she gets her two big walks and her two quick trips outside everyday. we go around the block at 6AM and 2+ miles around 10 AM and 2+ miles again around 2 PM and then one more time around the block at 9 PM. my husband thinks this might be an excessive number of walks but she has always been quiet and non-destructive from all the exercize and training and off-leash time and play. granted, if i weren't currently a StayatHome Mom this schedule would be unrealistic, but this timing was exactly the plan. --apropos of nothing: next year my daughter starts Kindergarten and i hope to do some part time work at one of the stables nearby (get my kid some free riding lessons! i love cleaning stalls, actually, but lessons are the hope, too) and start club training with my then 16 month old dog--soooo i have always found that a tired puppy is a well behaved puppy and have exercised her accordingly. just walking isn't really enough, though...some OB and some jumping and some preliminary Agility stuff and some tennis ball mixed in seems to work best for us.


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## rick smith

control of the dog in the house should come at the same it is being taught not to shit/poop in the house

the problem often happens with dogs who get played with a lot IN the house s pups

often is a problem because people "manage" with a crate
and one reason why they are NOT a good tool sometimes

and tons of people think a lead is something you use when you take the dog outside

applies the same to any dog, imo, regardless of breed or job

don't know what the specific problems are so can't give specific fixes


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## Catherine Gervin

we have a crate for our pup, but she's only been confined in it two or three times ever, for emergencies?, and otherwise it's just there so she has somewhere to go when my daughter bugs her too much, or if she wants some privacy someplace plush. i wonder if she'd still hang out in it if she ever had to stay in there for a long time against her wishes...


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## Larry Krohn

Haz Othman said:


> Do you leave your working/sport dog loose in the house? If so at what age? Specifically interested in GSD/Mals.
> 
> My current phenom is still a pup but the ultimate goal is for her to be loose in the house to fulfill her role as a PPD. She is a lot busier then any of the previous dogs I have had in here before including a dutchie and cannot be uncrated for more then 15 mins even with supervision. She is also the highest drive dog I have had so thats the trade off I guess.
> 
> Anyways curious how and when y'all do it.


A rule I have always followed, and have been very successful with is they sleep in their crate at night until they are one year old, no matter how early they are house broken and they are not left free in the house when no one is home until they are two years old. That is about the amge they can mentally handle it for the most part. I learned that from an old timer many years ago and it has been one of the best pieces of advice I have ever received


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## Hunter Allred

Larry Krohn said:


> A rule I have always followed, and have been very successful with is they sleep in their crate at night until they are one year old, no matter how early they are house broken and they are not left free in the house when no one is home until they are two years old. That is about the amge they can mentally handle it for the most part. I learned that from an old timer many years ago and it has been one of the best pieces of advice I have ever received


thats about what I do


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## Jennifer Andress

My dogs have always been allowed to free roam within about a month of arrival.

Personally I would not want a dog that I couldn't trust to comport itself appropriately in the home by the time it was about 2 years old (and hopefully before that). All my dogs are companions first and foremost; if they can't do that, they're not for me. Our condo is way too small for crate-and-rotate to be a viable way of life, either.


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## rick smith

Larry
i agree that your crate rule is one way 

all i'm trying to say is that a dog needs to lean that a house is nothing more than a large crate, and when they learn AND respect that "rule", problems are rare. any dog can be taught this regardless of "drive level", and a lead is a very handle tool until the dog has learned.
- and a positive spin off from in-house lead work is that the dog becomes less reactive to having a lead go on/off and it carries over to outside work too

not sure why they would need to sleep in one unless the control was not yet established ??

crates have a lot of good uses, but too many people expect the dog to connect the dots rather than showing them what is appropriate behavior, and MANY people i have worked with who had problem dogs inside a house had used crates
....too many people "manage" problems too long, expecting the dog to outgrow it. that's why i think it is owner related and i don't agree it is age related

and i am talking about situations when only family members are home; not when strangers or new people visit. different situation entirely

in house "PPD" training is another subject, but i don't see how it can start until the foundation is there, which is what i thought the OP was referring to


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## Haz Othman

Makes sense. I like that rule, i was curious if people where commonly leaving their working dogs loose..especially the mals. You hear about how challenging they are to live with. Interesting that many here seem to trust them out.


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## Larry Krohn

rick smith said:


> Larry
> i agree that your crate rule is one way
> 
> all i'm trying to say is that a dog needs to lean that a house is nothing more than a large crate, and when they learn AND respect that "rule", problems are rare. any dog can be taught this regardless of "drive level", and a lead is a very handle tool until the dog has learned.
> - and a positive spin off from in-house lead work is that the dog becomes less reactive to having a lead go on/off and it carries over to outside work too
> 
> not sure why they would need to sleep in one unless the control was not yet established ??
> 
> crates have a lot of good uses, but too many people expect the dog to connect the dots rather than showing them what is appropriate behavior, and MANY people i have worked with who had problem dogs inside a house had used crates
> ....too many people "manage" problems too long, expecting the dog to outgrow it. that's why i think it is owner related and i don't agree it is age related
> 
> and i am talking about situations when only family members are home; not when strangers or new people visit. different situation entirely
> 
> in house "PPD" training is another subject, but i don't see how it can start until the foundation is there, which is what i thought the OP was referring to


The reason they sleep in the crates until one year old is because they bypass the whole chewing stage, never start the bad habit. I have never had a dog chew anything in my home, never. Now us far as crating until two years old, that is just when no one is home. All of my dogs have free range in my home 24 hours a day. They also sleep where they want but that is usually next to my bed, except my GSD sleeps at the front door and checks my kids rooms several times a night.


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## Khoi Pham

I let my Mal have the full house at about a year old, raise him in the house since 11 weeks, never a problem until last year, he is about 10 1/2 now, I went duck hunting with a friend and he was afraid that my dog will tip over the canoe so I didn't take him with me, he saw me put on the gear and knows that I'm going hunting, but I didn't take him with me, I came home and there is a hole in my carpet all the way down to the wood, I guess that is his way of telling me hey you forgot about me.


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## rick smith

the "two year rule" seems to be assuming two years is some magical time a dog gets under control when alone ... i don't understand that and i think they can learn a lot sooner

once you have a rule you tend to stick with the rule ... cause it works
i tend to not always agree that rules are universally successful, and that most dogs can be taught to not rearrange a house or get into trouble much earlier

my latest house dog was about a year and a half when i got it
...not a low drive dog
- had never been allowed inside, and had been tethered outside unless it chewed that off, then it climbed trees and got an "escape artist" handle laid on it by the owner

only took about three months inside and on lead 24/7 before it learned the rules, and that was among five cats and another dog who were never on a lead
- occasionally crated inside during this time, but not often

teaching a dog or pup house manners, and starting the first day they step foot inside a house has worked great for me too
- i think my way is not preferred because it takes more hands on time that most people don't have, or think it is a pita, but the end result has been dogs who were PERFECT inside a house for years after, so it was well worth the extra time up front ... for me

how many people teach house manners inside On lead ?? my guess is very few 

not that it matters, but my rules are :
- my house is my castle; my dogs have to respect that
- all play happens outside regardless of the weather
- no animal harasses another animal in my house; two legged or four, and "seniority" of the "animals" rules 

if a dog isn't relaxed inside a house that is a signal to me i need to do something with it besides crate it, even if i do crate it


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## leslie cassian

Yes.

Mali since he was a wee pup and stressed so badly in his crate I decided it wasn't worth it, and DS since she was about 7 months old. 

They're no use to me as intruder deterrents locked in a cage and I suspect they are much happier being allowed to choose whether to sleep on the couch or the bed while I'm at work.


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## David Baker

Guy Williams said:


> I always bring my dogs in the house even if they are going to live in kennels or aren't going to stay with me. I think you end up with more polite dogs and i like them house trained as it tends to stop them pissing in buildings if they were doing a long search.
> 
> *I tend to crate train them and keep them in the house for the first 6 months and wean them into a kennel when I am happy they are confident on their own*. I will also leave them unattended in the house once I know they are house trained and wont eat everything. That is different for each dog. My last 3 pups were GSd the one before that was a mal.


This is exactly what i did with my current GSD/monster. Except he's not in the house, he's got his own 20x20' garage as a house, equipped with A/C, heat, bed, toys, dog door, and an underground fence around our property. He is the first line of defense, my AR15 and .45 are the last line.  

There is no way Major could be trusted in the house by himself until he is old and gray. Lol, my wife has 2 cats and i have a couch potato of an AmStaff in the house. Major would give my AmStaff a heart attack from the stress and would probably kill both of the cats out of play, not aggression.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Crate doors are always open for both my Dutchies day and night whether I'm here or not. 

They were about a years and a half years old when I cut them loose like that. The weird thing is they go lay in their crate when I'm gone because I usually see them there when I get home.

They never damaged anything.


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## Annamarie Somich

Haz,

There is no calendar date because each dog, each context is different. No fast rule.

I suggest that you go by what the indiv dog can handle. It's not just being housebroken, the dog must handle the stress of having freedom after being in a crate where he can't make any decisions. Now he can wander and lay where ever he wants to. He can lay on a rug, get board or stressed (including sep anxiety) and start chewing on the rug or baseboard. He can get excited by something outside since it is boring inside, like the postman or squirrel, and tear up the blinds. He can jump on the kitchen counter and eat and break things. If he is loose with a buddy, the two can really get into mischief. He can stress during a thunderstorm and eat the sofa or mattress. He can stress when you are late - believe me they know what time we are suppose to get home.

I suggest tailoring it to your dog. Start out small and build in length, time of day, and stressors.


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## Haz Othman

The PPD training will come much later but her primary role is as a PPD then sport dog. My point was that I want her to ultimately be trustworthy in the house while Im gone because as mentioned above she is no use to me locked up.

The challenge is increased because I dont let dogs upstairs or in the basement. Just the kitchen and living room. No dogs on the furniture, no chewing the shoes, mats, little dog beds, couches etc. Perhaps more rules then the average dog person..

The last couple of dogs I had here I trained to go in their crate (which was in the main room) on command and remain there until told otherwise even with the door opened. That way when they started acting the fool I would just give the command and back in the crate they would go to cool off. 
They also understood the no upstairs or downstairs rule.

This current pup is way busier then the last couple of dogs, has to go everywhere at a run, shorter attention span, always needs something in her mouth etc etc. This makes her a bull in the china shop in the house. 
Iv had her out and about on a prong and correct any chewing, running, harrassing etc. The only way she can be loose is in a downstay which given her age and personality she inevitably breaks after a while and needs to be corrected and replaced in the position. This requires more compulsion then I want to use atm. 
Plus Im worried that Im imprinitng bad habits in the downstay which will hurt me on the IPO field like creeping, rolling etc.

So Im going to keep sessions short for now till she cools off a bit. I was also considering teaching a place command and reenforcing it with the E Collar.


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## Bob Scott

My two GSDs spent the first 6-8 months iin the house to learn basic manners. The older one could be left alone by the time he was ready for the outside. I could bring him in today (almost 10) and he'd pick up right where he left off.
The younger one was still crated up to going outside. I wouldn't bring him in the house without close observation.
Every "house" dog I've ever owned, be they pet, show or working were loose in the house by 5-6 months old.


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## Geoff Empey

Rules are rules and rules are meant to be broken.  

I don't really put a time frame on anything. For my dogs they had to earn my trust. As well I had to feel comfortable as I have expensive guitars, amplifiers and stuff that would have me shoot the dogs if they messed with them. 

The female in my avatar picture she was over 2 before I felt comfortable leaving her alone in the house. She was probably ok to leave out earlier but it was my comfort factor why I took a bit longer. 

My male he earned the right to be loose in the house by 16-17 months. I don't have them out together though still when I am not home just because they are both intact and I don't really want a mother/son opps litter if that opportunity presented itself. As well I still want them to bond with me more so than they bond with themselves.


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## Annamarie Somich

This pup may need to be older before she is allowed loose in the house because of her temperament. She may need a lot more self-control type training too. It is one thing for a dog to behave accordingly while you are in the house or even outside in the yard. But once you drive away in your car all bets are off. The timeline is up to her - her temperament and mental mindset to where she can offer the self-restraining behaviors that you want while you are away. And a lot of it is getting past the puppy energy desire stage to get into trouble. 

Suggestion - since she likes the oral sensation of something in her mouth, get her a "lovey" toy that is hers alone for when you are gone. I use kongs filled with PB, butter, devils ham, cream cheese, egg salad, humus, mac&chz, etc.

Also, pick a good strategic place to set up her bed or open crate - a good place to alert or catch an intruder. For example, the location for the twin doggie day bed in my house is next to the back patio door, with full view of the front door, straight into my master bedroom which is off of the dinette, or an easy jump and turn down the hallway that leads to the garage and side bedrooms. All of the paths are clear, free of furniture and rugs.


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## susan tuck

My 2 year old is not a house dog, and I don't want him to be a house dog, which is why he's not left alone in the house. He has a large run/yard and has a dog door to get into the garage as well as an igloo dog house when I don't want him to have access to the garage. 

My 7 year old dog has earned the house dog spot, but he too spends a large part of the day outside.

Personally, I don't like pups in the house for very long, I like to wait until they're older to bring them inside for long periods of time. I do play with them a lot whether they're inside or outside, I think playing is the best form of training for a puppy.


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## Matt Vandart

Interestingly my older mal was the best behaved puppy I have ever owned, maybe one or two days to learn to shit/piss outside and has never chewed anything she is not meant to. 
Doberman pups on the other hand are a feckin nightmare, every one I have had has been till about 6 months then they level off a bit then at 2 years they tend to sort their shit out.
The Whackiest '2 years' change I have ever seen is in whippets, they are complete maniacs and then almost to the day of 2 years they just change.


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## Joby Becker

I crate until at least a year personally, pretty consistantly usually. Then start working out time in.


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## Elaine Matthys

I crate my dogs until they are good while I am home and then start leaving them loose at night, usually around six months of age. It's usually around a year of age that they seem trustworthy enough to start leaving them loose for short periods of time and then build on success.

I have always had my adult dogs loose in the house all the time, except for my current little demon spawn who has a taste for clothing. I don't know if I will ever be able to have him loose in the house alone. I about have panic attacks when he's left in the car for short periods of time. I expect to come back and have him greet me with the steering wheel in his mouth. Fortunately, his crate is in there most of the time so he can be safely contained.


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## rick smith

re : "I crate my dogs until they are good while I am home and then start leaving them loose at night"
sorry, but i don't know what you mean here by "good"
..... good in the crate or good when loose ?

for those who do a lot of similar crate training :

- why do you think dog will learn to be good when loose just because it is good in a crate ?
- for me, being good in a crate has nothing to do with teaching house manners while OUT of the crate, and there is no learning going on while the dog is confined 
- for me, house manners only come from being on lead while proofing until the lead can be shortened and is finally no longer necessary at all

to put it another way :
i don't think a dog generalizes from being good while confined to being good while not confined because many dogs i've worked with who were often crated were good in their crates but NOT good when loose

as in the crate is fine when you are NOT teaching house manners, rather than as a method used to teach house manners


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> re : "I crate my dogs until they are good while I am home and then start leaving them loose at night"
> sorry, but i don't know what you mean here by "good"
> ..... good in the crate or good when loose ?
> 
> for those who do a lot of similar crate training :
> 
> - why do you think dog will learn to be good when loose just because it is good in a crate ?
> - for me, being good in a crate has nothing to do with teaching house manners while OUT of the crate, and there is no learning going on while the dog is confined
> - for me, house manners only come from being on lead while proofing until the lead can be shortened and is finally no longer necessary at all
> 
> to put it another way :
> i don't think a dog generalizes from being good while confined to being good while not confined because many dogs i've worked with who were often crated were good in their crates but NOT good when loose
> 
> as in the crate is fine when you are NOT teaching house manners, rather than as a method used to teach house manners


I teach "crate manners"..dog is taught to go into crate when coming in the house. Dog is taught to go into crate from inside the house after being out for a while, and so forth...in and out, from out and in. 

while dog has out time, dog is taught manners and boundaries in the house. The crate door is closed at night, while I am gone, and whenever I feel like closing it.

IF a dog is to become a dog that will be left out of the crate for long periods of time to roam the house alone, I still dont really start with that until the dog is more mature, and not until after dog is a champ in the crate in all aspects...going in and out, keeping quiet, relaxing etc etc..

I think that crate training for me IS a kind of a part of house training, as it is a huge part of housebreaking (potty and so forth) for me, and also programs the dog as to where it is fed (in the crate from a bowl), which I think goes a long way towards the dog not begging or attempting to steal my food...of which if a dog is lucky enough to get any of...you guessed it, it goes in a bowl in the crate....

The crate is where I send the dog(s) when I want them in there, and the crate quite often also (for most of them) is a place they dont mind much being in, once the time comes and the dog is left loose, I will often find that dog, sleeping in its crate on its own volition. IF the dogs are inside of a house at all that is...


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## Elaine Matthys

rick smith said:


> re : "I crate my dogs until they are good while I am home and then start leaving them loose at night"
> sorry, but i don't know what you mean here by "good"
> ..... good in the crate or good when loose ?
> 
> for those who do a lot of similar crate training :
> 
> - why do you think dog will learn to be good when loose just because it is good in a crate ?
> - for me, being good in a crate has nothing to do with teaching house manners while OUT of the crate, and there is no learning going on while the dog is confined
> - for me, house manners only come from being on lead while proofing until the lead can be shortened and is finally no longer necessary at all
> 
> to put it another way :
> i don't think a dog generalizes from being good while confined to being good while not confined because many dogs i've worked with who were often crated were good in their crates but NOT good when loose
> 
> as in the crate is fine when you are NOT teaching house manners, rather than as a method used to teach house manners


Good in the house means good while I am awake and supervising them. I only crate them, while I am awake , when I can't directly watch them, such as when I take a shower. They learn nothing in a crate, it is only a management tool to prevent bad habits from developing when I can't supervise. I don't need a leash on my dogs as pups as my house is so tiny I can always see them.

I've only had to have one dog on leash on the house and that was an extremely damaged foster adult dog that was incapable of making good choices so I had to take all ability of making bad choices away from him.


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## Bob Scott

For me, the dog being crated is nothing more then a way to control them when I can't keep my eyes on them. The "secret" to house training is nothing more then being consistent. 
Being consistency from the dog is when I think they are really solid on how the individual lets me know they want to go out. For the most part I let the individual dog develop it's own way of doing that. Some will bark. Some will scratch at the door. Some will spin at the door and whine. Some will run back and forth between the door and me. The more natural to the dog the easier is develops on it's own.
I've had one or two that would just sit in front of the door and hope someone sees them. These I will teach an alert to go out. Exactly what depends on the dog's personality. Some will bark easily. some not.


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## James Downey

I crate pups/ young dogs for about 18 months till about 2 years old. At first, It's in the crate or I am interacting with puppy, not just supervision. But me actually doing something with the dog. I do this till I am certain they are potty trained. Then I start working settling in the house. I start training in my garage, or my basement (depends where I am living...military life...) But I only train in that room. The others I have dog beds or open crates, where I start giving the dogs kongs with pb or small chews. if they get up and abandon the toy or chew I put them away. They can stay out if they settle. No settle, no freedom. I lighten up a little when I see them start to settle...like if they just want to go smell something or go get a different toy, come get pets. but if they start to become busy bodies or have that special working dog walking around for no reason unsettledness...they go in the crate. And usually I see at around 18 months to 2 years old. I can stop using the crate at home. Even if I ain't home. I only give the dog one toy in the house and that's a kong, So far I have been lucky...and the dogs have chewed nothing up. a 10 year old, 8 year old, and 3 year old, and now 11 week old. Not sure if I just got dogs that don't tear things up, or that my kong rule has taught them what to chew. As for getting caught in traffic.... Lucky me my wife works at home. during the day the Malinois are either outside basking the california sun or they are on the bed. I don't let the Malinois have free run of the house unless I am there. they stay in the master bedroom. I don't really have a purpose for that except that it's really busy in the house with 4 dogs and 2 kids. My wife has 2 dogs a mix and a pit... and for whatever reason, she has claimed that for some magical reason her dogs are allowed more freedom to roam the entire house, than my Malinois can. Oh that's right! that magic reason is she has va-jay, jay.


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## Matt Vandart

James Downey said:


> I crate pups/ young dogs for about 18 months till about 2 years old. At first, It's in the crate or I am interacting with puppy, not just supervision. But me actually doing something with the dog. I do this till I am certain they are potty trained. Then I start working settling in the house. I start training in my garage, or my basement (depends where I am living...military life...) But I only train in that room. The others I have dog beds or open crates, where I start giving the dogs kongs with pb or small chews. if they get up and abandon the toy or chew I put them away. They can stay out if they settle. No settle, no freedom. I lighten up a little when I see them start to settle...like if they just want to go smell something or go get a different toy, come get pets. but if they start to become busy bodies or have that special working dog walking around for no reason unsettledness...they go in the crate. And usually I see at around 18 months to 2 years old. I can stop using the crate at home. Even if I ain't home. I only give the dog one toy in the house and that's a kong, So far I have been lucky...and the dogs have chewed nothing up. a 10 year old, 8 year old, and 3 year old, and now 11 week old. Not sure if I just got dogs that don't tear things up, or that my kong rule has taught them what to chew. As for getting caught in traffic.... Lucky me my wife works at home. during the day the Malinois are either outside basking the california sun or they are on the bed. I don't let the Malinois have free run of the house unless I am there. they stay in the master bedroom. I don't really have a purpose for that except that it's really busy in the house with 4 dogs and 2 kids. My wife has 2 dogs a mix and *a pit... and for whatever reason, she has claimed that for some magical reason her dogs are allowed more freedom to roam the entire house, than my Malinois can.* Oh that's right! that magic reason is she has va-jay, jay.



funny that, the same rule applies in my house with my birds bullies........lol

Bob how many dogs have you had in your life? just out of interest, I just get the idea it's alot! 

Everything Jobby said in his last post is what happens here.....except for the bullies, out of whose ass the sun doth shine.....\\/


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## Gillian Schuler

Bob said:

_For me, the dog being crated is nothing more then a way to control them when I can't keep my eyes on them._

For me too.

I have had 6 different breeds over the years. They have all learned to tell me when they must out. I have had no mishaps, apart from when my adult Landseer had the "runs" and I slept through it - yuk - at first I thought the cat had had the runs but the amount taught me better.

The crate was great when I had to go out for a few hours but I let the pups run around outside for a while beforehand. There is no such thing as crate "training". The dog is secure and most likely won't "soil the nest."

Today, our 9 year old GSD goes down to the office to Toni" to tell him when he wants to go out in the night.

Toni is a night owl - I am an early bird. It works well.


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## maggie fraser

I have no real experience of crate training, ALL of my dogs have been loose from the get go (as puppies) supervised initially, and usually confined to one room whilst small when I was out. I have never taken on a puppy when I did not have the time to supervise and train it. I have found the less contained they are, the less wound up they get, they were routinely exercised before being left. No playing in the house except for small terriers. Anyone who got overly restless for whatever reason went outside Everyone had one house toy they could chomp on when restless, and free to go through most rooms in the house with a couple of exceptions.

They learn to live in the house from very young,, never had much destruction and certainly never had a thief. That's how we pretty much did it over here before crates became the fashion . I could have done with a crate I suppose when I took in my feral cat, after a week or so of tying my terriers to the furniture to help them adjust  had a few 'Tom & Jerry' scenes but they learn very quickly if you take that time when they are small. That has been my experience.


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## Ben Thompson

The dogs with enough man stopping power are often the dogs that will turn your couch inside out. Its difficult when they are young. Thats why crates and kennels are a necessity that and tall fences. Running lose in the house has to be earned....once they earn it, I'm ok with it.


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## Haz Othman

Just moved the crate to the main floor from the basement to start on the whole process. The regular low pitched whining is fun..lol especially after a day of IPO and a hike. Not too loud just loud enough that you hear it over the tv ](*,). Like chinese water torture. 

Cant wait till those new collar probes get here . Once she settles better in the crate we will progress to more free time in the house.


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## Bob Scott

Matt Vandart said:


> funny that, the same rule applies in my house with my birds bullies........lol
> 
> Bob how many dogs have you had in your life? just out of interest, I just get the idea it's alot!
> 
> Everything Jobby said in his last post is what happens here.....except for the bullies, out of whose ass the sun doth shine.....\\/



Matt I'm 68 yrs old and have rarely been without 2-3-4 dogs of my own at any time in my life.
I'm one of 7 kids and all of us are still doggy. Only one brother is without a dog now and...well...his wife doesn't like them. Go figure! :roll:
Obviously I have a very understanding and wonderful wife of 45 yrs. :grin: :grin: :grin:


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## Bob Scott

Ben Thompson said:


> The dogs with enough man stopping power are often the dogs that will turn your couch inside out. Its difficult when they are young. Thats why crates and kennels are a necessity that and tall fences. Running lose in the house has to be earned....once they earn it, I'm ok with it.



Ben, I've had multiple terriers. Kerry Blues, Border Terriers, Norwich, JRT, White Bull, Pit, Rat terrier and terrier mixes. I've had these along with a St. Bernard, Weimaraner, Collie, old fashioned farm collie, GSDs and many numerous cross breds and mutts over the yrs.
I've not seen any Mal or other dog/breed have any more drive/intensity then the crazy little terror bassids and all were well mannered house dogs. It's more about MY attitude then theirs. :wink:


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## Matt Vandart

Cool, same here but I am only just touching 40, I can't imagine not having loads of dogs, well I can actually and one day I shall try it, it will be weird and probably peaceful!

I also concur with your terrier assessment! Terriers are my absolute favourite and I will never be without at least one, so that sorta ****s the above plan, lol.


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## frank guios

I just recently after a year and a half, am able to leave my dutchie loose in the house. He has relapsed and chewed up a couple things, but luckly it was all my wifes stuff. I still dont leave him for more than four hours loose. I think it should be done little by little. Good luck


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## rick smith

Frank
it would have been more lucky for ME if my dog would have chewed up MY things //lol//

but most everyone on this forum knows you train dogs "little by little" 
but there might be more training value to have read how you trained the dog to get where it did b4 the relapse 
- four hours loose is not all that much unless you are never home much

- my Q would be how did you go about proofing the dog ? that can be done when you are there watching it IF you have a method to apply a correction at the appropriate time, etc
- otoh, if you kept distractions out of the way with the house cleared and over time thought the dog would be fine with you not being present, that could be exactly why the dog acted up, rather than considering it a "relapse", and the fault of the dog rather than the trainer 

imo NO behavior should be considered solid until it is proofed. including something as simple as a sit, or something like finding something to chew on in a house

simple examples are the old countersurfing or trash diving problems. most everyone that ever told me that was a problem had tried to "fix" it by keeping counters cleared and putting lids on trash cans and emptying them regularly
- to me that has NOTHING to do with training ... but everyone blamed their dog ](*,)

just my .02 but to me your post did not make that clear one way or the other

anyway, for me it's all about proofing and i always like to read about new ways to do that. sometimes i fall short in the "imagination" department


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## Matt Vandart

I think it's as simple as letting the pup (dog) know that EVERYTHING belongs to you.


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## rick smith

re: "I think it's as simple as letting the pup (dog) know that EVERYTHING belongs to you."

of course 

but that is the end game; how you get there is not always as simple to state 

and some dogs are born thinking everything belongs to them; others aren't


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## Sally Crunkleton

I prefer mine to be loose inside once they have earned my trust while I am away.

My first GSD was totally trustworthy by age 2 and before all he ever did was knock the trash over, but didn't eat it or take it all over the house.

GSD #2 was a different story. Once he turned 1, he busted the frames and destroyed 3 steel crates to get out. He tore the back out of one end of my brand new leather sectional, he chewed some wood trim, and he took all the Sheetrock off the walls by my front door.

A year and a half later my older GSD passed due to cancer and I was terrified my house was going to be destroyed since he would truly be alone. He hasn't touched a thing since.

I have to say the times he was destructive were during recovery periods from either surgery or injury- so his exercise was very limited during those incidents.

I am planning on adding another GSD in the next year and will tweak a few things, but as long as I can find a crate that will hold up......I will use it until I trust him.


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## Ben Thompson

Bob Scott said:


> Ben, I've had multiple terriers. Kerry Blues, Border Terriers, Norwich, JRT, White Bull, Pit, Rat terrier and terrier mixes. I've had these along with a St. Bernard, Weimaraner, Collie, old fashioned farm collie, GSDs and many numerous cross breds and mutts over the yrs.
> I've not seen any Mal or other dog/breed have any more drive/intensity then the crazy little terror bassids and all were well mannered house dogs. It's more about MY attitude then theirs. :wink:


 I don't know what to say to a dog when you come home and the couch is tore up. It could have happened hours ago.


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## Sally Crunkleton

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't know what to say to a dog when you come home and the couch is tore up. It could have happened hours ago.


Yes that is tricky.....I almost passed out, then my first urge was to kill him so I just left for a bit to calm down. I didn't have to say anything though.....he could sense that he f'ed up in a huge way...




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## rick smith

sorry but i don't believe it's tricky at all and i propose you should be talking to yourself instead of the dog 

glad at least this isn't a pet forum or i'd be probably be reading how the dog was being spiteful or vindictive ](*,)](*,)](*,)

why is it that we have heard MANY many times on here about how if a dog screws up on a trial field we should be asking ourselves what did WE do wrong, but a dog who chews up household items doesn't get the same fair evaluation ?? ](*,)](*,)](*,)

yeah, i'm getting a little pissed but this is a major rant for me so please tell me where i'm wrong if you think i am 

i like my sofa cushions and dry wall as much as anyone, but i care more about my dog than my remote control and table legs ](*,)](*,)


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Haz Othman said:


> Do you leave your working/sport dog loose in the house? If so at what age? Specifically interested in GSD/Mals.
> 
> My current phenom is still a pup but the ultimate goal is for her to be loose in the house to fulfill her role as a PPD. She is a lot busier then any of the previous dogs I have had in here before including a dutchie and cannot be uncrated for more then 15 mins even with supervision. She is also the highest drive dog I have had so thats the trade off I guess.
> 
> Anyways curious how and when y'all do it.




What happens after 15 minutes?

T


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## Bob Scott

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't know what to say to a dog when you come home and the couch is tore up. It could have happened hours ago.



You do nothing unless you catch the dog in the act of actually GETTING INTO the trash/tearing up the couch/etc.
I heard it all the time. "My dog KNOWS it did wrong because it has a guilty look on it's face for getting in the trash". WRONG!
It has learned that when trash is on the floor it's going to get in trouble. That has NO connection to actually GETTING INTO the trash. Even if the dog leaves the trash when you come to the door all it connects to is trash on the floor means your gonna be pissed. It has no connection to your getting angry if it got into that trash 5-10 even 2 mins ago. 
It's no different then calling a dog to correct it. The dog relates praise or correction to the very last thing it did. What was that? It came to you. DUH! "Not gonna go to that asshole again when he calls". 
I helped a lady break her 8 month old Dobe of getting in the trash even when she would be in the next room. Obviously the easy answer was keep your eye on the dog. That seemed to be to difficult. ](*,)
I told her to set mouse traps all over the top of the trash basket in the kitchen. The first time the Dobe got in there it got a mouse trap caught on it's lip. She had to chase the dog down to get the trap off. It gave the trash can a wide berth after that. Single event learning! :wink:
How much easier would it have been to just watch the pup and not let it in the trash in the first place?!


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## Ben Thompson

Bob Scott said:


> You do nothing unless you catch the dog in the act of actually GETTING INTO the trash/tearing up the couch/etc.
> I heard it all the time. "My dog KNOWS it did wrong because it has a guilty look on it's face for getting in the trash". WRONG!
> It has learned that when trash is on the floor it's going to get in trouble. That has NO connection to actually GETTING INTO the trash. Even if the dog leaves the trash when you come to the door all it connects to is trash on the floor means your gonna be pissed. It has no connection to your getting angry if it got into that trash 5-10 even 2 mins ago.
> It's no different then calling a dog to correct it. The dog relates praise or correction to the very last thing it did. What was that? It came to you. DUH! "Not gonna go to that asshole again when he calls".
> I helped a lady break her 8 month old Dobe of getting in the trash even when she would be in the next room. Obviously the easy answer was keep your eye on the dog. That seemed to be to difficult. ](*,)
> I told her to set mouse traps all over the top of the trash basket in the kitchen. The first time the Dobe got in there it got a mouse trap caught on it's lip. She had to chase the dog down to get the trap off. It gave the trash can a wide berth after that. Single event learning! :wink:
> How much easier would it have been to just watch the pup and not let it in the trash in the first place?!


I'm not really a fan of E collars but I was thinking of using one and having a rule he is under no circumstances allowed to touch the couch...I have a garage attached to the house and I just keep the garbage can out there. I don't even tempt a dog with that.


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## Bob Scott

Ben Thompson said:


> I'm not really a fan of E collars but I was thinking of using one and having a rule he is under no circumstances allowed to touch the couch...I have a garage attached to the house and I just keep the garbage can out there. I don't even tempt a dog with that.



There are also pads out there that will zap the dog when it jumps on the couch. Inside "invisible fences" of a sort also that can be placed in areas the dog isn't allowed to go into.


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## Matt Vandart

rick smith said:


> sorry but i don't believe it's tricky at all and i propose you should be talking to yourself instead of the dog
> 
> glad at least this isn't a pet forum or i'd be probably be reading how the dog was being spiteful or vindictive ](*,)](*,)](*,)
> 
> why is it that we have heard MANY many times on here about how if a dog screws up on a trial field we should be asking ourselves what did WE do wrong, but a dog who chews up household items doesn't get the same fair evaluation ?? ](*,)](*,)](*,)
> 
> yeah, i'm getting a little pissed but this is a major rant for me so please tell me where i'm wrong if you think i am
> 
> *i like my sofa cushions and dry wall as much as anyone, but i care more about my dog than my remote control and table legs* ](*,)](*,)



Well said Rick


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## maggie fraser

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't know what to say to a dog when you come home and the couch is tore up. It could have happened hours ago.


I had a life changing day, (more than twenty years ago) regarding my dogs. I won't bore folks with all the details, but in short I had one gsd and two jrts at the time, hubby and I were both leaving early am, returning lunch time, and home again at fivish.

I had arrived home first this day, but I couldn't get the door open to get in, I had to force it on account of the carpet being ripped up as well as FLOOR boards jamming the door. When I did get in, the place was literally covered with feathers from the cushions, and the couch, and the armchair, debris everywhere, wallpaper stripped from the floor up, the room had been completely rearranged, it was quite impressive! Books from the book shelf scattered, shoes, you name it, the killer though was the sight of my gsd. Hanging from his mouth were remnants of tracing paper and masking tape, my DRAWINGS that had taken almost a year to do, all the conniving and work that went into those drawings. I had always routinely placed them on top in a high place, out of reach!!

I didn't say a single word, not for about two days I think. I've since raised a further two gsds and two jrts loose in the house from puppies. Never experienced any destruction as I said earlier, no thievery, there was the occasional unavoidable accident, and I have been comfortable enough since to go out and leave dogs in the house loose, as a matter of routine.

Those three dogs had partly learned house training with a semi correction method, I changed my approach after that.


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## mel boschwitz

One of my best friends lives in NYC and was at the Towers on 9/11. She was uninjured but obviously very shook up. She was vehicleless and had an older GSD mix. So I brought them to my place (that's a story in and of itself), with the assurance that her dog was well behaved in the house. He was an older boy and couldnt keep up with my younger GSD mix. So one day we left him home while we took a walk with my dog. The day before I had just picked up 20lbs of chicken that was thawing in my fridge before being repackaged. We came home 2hrs later to almost all of the food in my fridge on the kitchen floor, or at least, the packaging. Even the 20lbs of nearly frozen chicken was gone. It took me a long time to stop laughing. What else could I do??? 

He never got sick or had an accident in the house, but we did tie the fridge shut after that. Turns out he had done that several times in the past. He also took food out of the oven. 

But he never tore up a pillow or even a paper towel.


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## Gillian Schuler

rick smith said:


> sorry but i don't believe it's tricky at all and i propose you should be talking to yourself instead of the dog
> 
> glad at least this isn't a pet forum or i'd be probably be reading how the dog was being spiteful or vindictive ](*,)](*,)](*,)
> 
> why is it that we have heard MANY many times on here about how if a dog screws up on a trial field we should be asking ourselves what did WE do wrong, but a dog who chews up household items doesn't get the same fair evaluation ?? ](*,)](*,)](*,)
> 
> yeah, i'm getting a little pissed but this is a major rant for me so please tell me where i'm wrong if you think i am
> 
> i like my sofa cushions and dry wall as much as anyone, but i care more about my dog than my remote control and table legs ](*,)](*,)


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## Gillian Schuler

rick smith said:


> sorry but i don't believe it's tricky at all and i propose you should be talking to yourself instead of the dog
> 
> glad at least this isn't a pet forum or i'd be probably be reading how the dog was being spiteful or vindictive ](*,)](*,)](*,)
> 
> why is it that we have heard MANY many times on here about how if a dog screws up on a trial field we should be asking ourselves what did WE do wrong, but a dog who chews up household items doesn't get the same fair evaluation ?? ](*,)](*,)](*,)
> 
> yeah, i'm getting a little pissed but this is a major rant for me so please tell me where i'm wrong if you think i am
> 
> i like my sofa cushions and dry wall as much as anyone, but i care more about my dog than my remote control and table legs ](*,)](*,)


It's depressing. Even my neighbour who holds down a responsible job as a computer programmer (she's good, I can vouch for it) maintains that one of her dogs has a guilty conscience when she comes home and finds a mess or whatever.

That Mrs Jones round the corner maintains this, doesn't bother me but my neighbour does!

It's even difficult to correct a dog in the second he's doing something you don't want him to. It's not always clear to the dog which action you are correcting. Going into the bathroom and stealing the cat food, or just going into the bathroom. 

I find correcting dogs to sometimes be a complicated issue but I have never corrected a dog for something that I didn't witness.

Off topic but:

one of my neighbours swears her dog doesn't chase deer - the dear soul just herds them back to her owner - tell that to the marines, or the game keeper.

It has been said that the dog has the "intelligence" of an 18 month old child. 

When I was about 18 months' old, my mother stood in front of me and said "what have you got behind your back Gill?"

"Nuffin" I said not knowing that she could see the bag of sweets.


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## Sally Crunkleton

rick smith said:


> sorry but i don't believe it's tricky at all and i propose you should be talking to yourself instead of the dog
> 
> glad at least this isn't a pet forum or i'd be probably be reading how the dog was being spiteful or vindictive ](*,)](*,)](*,)
> 
> why is it that we have heard MANY many times on here about how if a dog screws up on a trial field we should be asking ourselves what did WE do wrong, but a dog who chews up household items doesn't get the same fair evaluation ?? ](*,)](*,)](*,)
> 
> yeah, i'm getting a little pissed but this is a major rant for me so please tell me where i'm wrong if you think i am
> 
> i like my sofa cushions and dry wall as much as anyone, but i care more about my dog than my remote control and table legs ](*,)](*,)


Well first off I did not make the comment about "saying" anything to the dog in the first place, and if my response was read entirely- I didn't do anything because I did not catch him in the act.

I also blamed his lack of exercise and frustration at that time, not the dog.

And before anyone goes off about me not exercising the dog- note that in the original comment it was due to recovery from injury/surgery.




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## Aaron W. Smith

Well,

I must be doing something wrong because my gsd's not close to being able to roam the house unsupervised.

I have a 10 month high drive high energy female and I'm sure she would destroy everything if left unsupervised. 

We have her on a lead whenever she's out of her crate and are consistent with her, but she still doesn't settle very well in the house. 

I have been hoping she'd settle down as she matures.


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## Gillian Schuler

If you have her on a lead, she cannot make a mistake, and you cannot correct her.


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## Haz Othman

She starts trotting around and getting into stuff. Once she starts moving she tends to get playful and tries to grab stuff, run, etc. Only way she will settle is in a crate.


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## maggie fraser

My current gsd was particularly busy in the house as a puppy/young dog (still is). He has never destroyed anything, what he would do to keep himself entertained when left was stuff like, rearrange the coal out the shuttle, maybe in prep for making the fire , he would collect shoes downstairs and take them upstairs, sometimes even in a pair , if he got really bored, he would practice flipping his toy into the dishwasher drawer and retrieving it. He had an older, reliable jrt for company which I do attribute some to his speedy learning, I dare say I probably would have employed a kennel and run otherwise for this dog,, he's the kind that needs his own space but that's a nuther topic.


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## Gillian Schuler

Haz Othman said:


> She starts trotting around and getting into stuff. Once she starts moving she tends to get playful and tries to grab stuff, run, etc. Only way she will settle is in a crate.


And what do you do when she does this??

If my dog has had sufficient exercise I tell it to lie down and if it doesn't I resort to sterner measures (I don't have to expose them on here).


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## maggie fraser

Gillian Schuler said:


> And what do you do when she does this??
> 
> If my dog has had sufficient exercise I tell it to lie down and if it doesn't I resort to sterner measures (I don't have to expose them on here).


Same here, unless of course he's helping out with the house work.


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## Gillian Schuler

Maggie

That's all I ever wanted from a dog lol


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## Meg O'Donovan

maggie fraser said:


> I had a life changing day, (more than twenty years ago) regarding my dogs. I won't bore folks with all the details, but in short I had one gsd and two jrts at the time, hubby and I were both leaving early am, returning lunch time, and home again at fivish.
> 
> I had arrived home first this day, but I couldn't get the door open to get in, I had to force it on account of the carpet being ripped up as well as FLOOR boards jamming the door. When I did get in, the place was literally covered with feathers from the cushions, and the couch, and the armchair, debris everywhere, wallpaper stripped from the floor up, the room had been completely rearranged, it was quite impressive! Books from the book shelf scattered, shoes, you name it, the killer though was the sight of my gsd. Hanging from his mouth were remnants of tracing paper and masking tape, my DRAWINGS that had taken almost a year to do, all the conniving and work that went into those drawings. I had always routinely placed them on top in a high place, out of reach!!
> 
> I didn't say a single word, not for about two days I think. I've since raised a further two gsds and two jrts loose in the house from puppies. Never experienced any destruction as I said earlier, no thievery, there was the occasional unavoidable accident, and I have been comfortable enough since to go out and leave dogs in the house loose, as a matter of routine.
> *
> Those three dogs had partly learned house training with a semi correction method, I changed my approach after that.*


This sounds like my worst nightmare, especially having the creative work destroyed. It has never happened to me, but not to say it couldn't (I leave my Malinois & GSD bitches home together, loose, and so far, so good).

1. In the aftermath (maybe weeks later), did you come up with any explanations for this amazing combustion of destructive energy? Did they trigger off something, or were there any other things happening that hadn't before (environment, diet?). Or did they just go "amok" (crazy brain) once they got started? Do you think it was frustration with the repeated coming and going?

2. Can you explain your comment that I've put in bold? I didn't understand what you meant here, but I feel pretty sure there is some good learning for us (readers), and that might make the dreadful destruction somewhat useful. 

The worst destruction my Malinois did was shortly after I first started letting her range about the house; she ate a hole in a very nice mohair throw. She didn't wreck the entire thing, just put a hole in it. I think it had my smell. She had not been with me long at that point, and was still showing some separation anxiety (which has mostly subsided). I find it useful to leave her uncrated downstairs at night because there is a a druggy motel down the street with tenants who often B&E/thieve on their flightpaths to and from their suppliers. The dogs have been excellent deterrents with their barking from inside, should unexpected people come around after dark. It is nice that both dogs are smart enough not to bark at people passing on the street, or for unnecessary reasons. The Malinois is one of the most silent dogs I've ever owned. When she barks, she means business.

It is interesting to read about the proofing off garbage cans, couches, etc. My dog is training for SAR and on one practise search this summer, a scented article was left on top of an upside down garbage can. My dog always seizes articles with gusto (as per our training), and this was the first time she ever held back. I think she was proofed on garbage cans as a pup, and didn't forget the lesson. 

I agree with Bob's comments about being proactive and watchful when establishing house rules. Supervision and guidance at the right time gives clear expectations and saves problems. But then, there is also always the crazy chance of them running amok in our absence, as Maggie's did. It is a calculated risk that likely decreases with the age of the dog(s).
I bet the JRTs were the instigators!


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## maggie fraser

Meg O'Donovan said:


> This sounds like my worst nightmare, especially having the creative work destroyed. It has never happened to me, but not to say it couldn't (I leave my Malinois & GSD bitches home together, loose, and so far, so good).
> 
> 1. In the aftermath (maybe weeks later), did you come up with any explanations for this amazing combustion of destructive energy? Did they trigger off something, or were there any other things happening that hadn't before (environment, diet?). Or did they just go "amok" (crazy brain) once they got started? Do you think it was frustration with the repeated coming and going?
> 
> 2. Can you explain your comment that I've put in bold? I didn't understand what you meant here, but I feel pretty sure there is some good learning for us (readers), and that might make the dreadful destruction somewhat useful.
> 
> The worst destruction my Malinois did was shortly after I first started letting her range about the house; she ate a hole in a very nice mohair throw. She didn't wreck the entire thing, just put a hole in it. I think it had my smell. She had not been with me long at that point, and was still showing some separation anxiety (which has mostly subsided). I find it useful to leave her uncrated downstairs at night because there is a a druggy motel down the street with tenants who often B&E/thieve on their flightpaths to and from their suppliers. The dogs have been excellent deterrents with their barking from inside, should unexpected people come around after dark. It is nice that both dogs are smart enough not to bark at people passing on the street, or for unnecessary reasons. The Malinois is one of the most silent dogs I've ever owned. When she barks, she means business.
> 
> It is interesting to read about the proofing off garbage cans, couches, etc. My dog is training for SAR and on one practise search this summer, a scented article was left on top of an upside down garbage can. My dog always seizes articles with gusto (as per our training), and this was the first time she ever held back. I think she was proofed on garbage cans as a pup, and didn't forget the lesson.
> 
> I agree with Bob's comments about being proactive and watchful when establishing house rules. Supervision and guidance at the right time gives clear expectations and saves problems. But then, there is also always the crazy chance of them running amok in our absence, as Maggie's did. It is a calculated risk that likely decreases with the age of the dog(s).
> I bet the JRTs were the instigators!


Well, first off, it had been interim accommodation in a flat with no garden. We had bought a property we were renovating, and things had taken a little longer than expected to push on as sometimes stuff does. One jrt was approx.15 months old, the gsd was 12 months I think, and the other jrt was maybe 4/5 months . The routine had been, up early am, all dogs in the car and down to the park, 45 mins - 1 hr we would do a circuit there, ball play, squirrel chasing , rabbit hunting, a good full on outing, back for breakfast. Everyone sorted out and settled with chew sticks, we were out by the back of eight, returning lunch time to take them out a toilet walk round the block, then the same park outing in the evening. Dogs seemed contented enough and this had been working for a few months.

The folks downstairs had called the sspca about the _poor _dogs upstairs who were likely starving, barking a lot, and were likely under-exercised, I think maybe the officer was trying to get too close a look in the flat whilst we were out and had apparently called a few times before he got us in. I think that was what upset everyone, but as you can probably see, lots of mitigating factors. Immediately after that escapade, I opened all other doors in the flat on leaving, I had no more recurrences.

All dogs were young, and we were all on the go pretty much of the time. Anxiety and boredom I think are the worst culprits for destruction in the home. Being proactive like Bob said is the way I do/have mainly done things, I would say though I teach puppies more what they CAN do, as opposed to what they CANNOT do, they don't worry so much when living in close quarters like that as there is a lot less correction going on, at least in the traditional sense. That is what I meant by since changing my approach,, prolly all clear as mud by now .


----------



## Ben Thompson

maggie fraser said:


> I had a life changing day, (more than twenty years ago) regarding my dogs. I won't bore folks with all the details, but in short I had one gsd and two jrts at the time, hubby and I were both leaving early am, returning lunch time, and home again at fivish.
> 
> I had arrived home first this day, but I couldn't get the door open to get in, I had to force it on account of the carpet being ripped up as well as FLOOR boards jamming the door. When I did get in, the place was literally covered with feathers from the cushions, and the couch, and the armchair, debris everywhere, wallpaper stripped from the floor up, the room had been completely rearranged, it was quite impressive! Books from the book shelf scattered, shoes, you name it, the killer though was the sight of my gsd. Hanging from his mouth were remnants of tracing paper and masking tape, my DRAWINGS that had taken almost a year to do, all the conniving and work that went into those drawings. I had always routinely placed them on top in a high place, out of reach!!
> 
> I didn't say a single word, not for about two days I think. I've since raised a further two gsds and two jrts loose in the house from puppies. Never experienced any destruction as I said earlier, no thievery, there was the occasional unavoidable accident, and I have been comfortable enough since to go out and leave dogs in the house loose, as a matter of routine.
> 
> Those three dogs had partly learned house training with a semi correction method, I changed my approach after that.


 Wow I don't think those dogs would have my trust again for years!


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## Haz Othman

Gillian Schuler said:


> And what do you do when she does this??
> 
> If my dog has had sufficient exercise I tell it to lie down and if it doesn't I resort to sterner measures (I don't have to expose them on here).


You will notice i said i dont want to correct her too much at this point.. I give her some verbal and physical cues to relax she will briefly but then gets hectic again. This tells me she is just not mature enough yet.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Haz Othman said:


> You will notice i said i dont want to correct her too much at this point.. I give her some verbal and physical cues to relax she will briefly but then gets hectic again. This tells me she is just not mature enough yet.


I don't do the correction route with mine. They have a long line and when I'm tired of managing them that way--a crate. I feel no need to walk around correcting them over touching what doesn't belong to them. I child proofed the house for the kid. I puppy proof for puppies. I've had some that I started leaving alone in the house loose at 6 months and some were 2 years. It varies from dog to dog. Its entirely a maturity thing and nothing lost not correcting them. They grow out of chewing stages and impulsive stages. Self control comes with maturity and doesn't have to come through corrections in order for them to be house reliable. 

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't do the correction route with mine. They have a long line and when I'm tired of managing them that way--a crate. I feel no need to walk around correcting them over touching what doesn't belong to them. I child proofed the house for the kid. I puppy proof for puppies. I've had some that I started leaving alone in the house loose at 6 months and some were 2 years. It varies from dog to dog. Its entirely a maturity thing and nothing lost not correcting them. They grow out of chewing stages and impulsive stages. Self control comes with maturity and doesn't have to come through corrections in order for them to be house reliable.
> 
> T


i agree with most of this as well...I just always wait until over a year before I start , goes smoother for me that way...if dog is not ready then wait another 4 months try again.

I do use corrections for certain things, 1 time corrections usually.


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## Mirka Jantunen

Haz Othman said:


> Do you leave your working/sport dog loose in the house? If so at what age? Specifically interested in GSD/Mals.


I only have a working BC, but she came to me from a kennel situation at 7 mos and has been loose since. It's illegal to crate here and living in an apartment outside kennels or dog flaps are not an option. I also have two older and possibly more mellow dogs. My friend has a DDR lined GSD, which has been loose in the apartment from the get go.


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## Haz Othman

Mirka Jantunen said:


> I only have a working BC, but she came to me from a kennel situation at 7 mos and has been loose since. It's illegal to crate here and living in an apartment outside kennels or dog flaps are not an option. I also have two older and possibly more mellow dogs. My friend has a DDR lined GSD, which has been loose in the apartment from the get go.


Illegal to crate?? Where are you? I do wonder if you did this with a puppy from the get go would it be an easier process. Ill have to try next time.


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## Haz Othman

So have been doing the place command, today I added an E Collar to the mix. She gets it and is responding well. I think the key was making sure she understood she had to remain on the mats or touching them, this gave her something to focus on and calmed her down. Not having anything to focus on while loose led to her being more hectic. She still requires supervision but its already night and day and easier then keeping a hand on her leash all the time. Here she is now.


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## Gillian Schuler

Haz Othman said:


> So have been doing the place command, today I added an E Collar to the mix. She gets it and is responding well. I think the key was making sure she understood she had to remain on the mats or touching them, this gave her something to focus on and calmed her down. Not having anything to focus on while loose led to her being more hectic. She still requires supervision but its already night and day and easier then keeping a hand on her leash all the time. Here she is now.


 
But this isn't a correction?


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## Haz Othman

Not really, its low level stuff.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Yes, really. Its at the level it takes to stop her from moving. What is she 5-6 months old and you want her to lay around like an adult dog. Getting hectic how--regarding what?

T


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## Haz Othman

Actually the goal is to keep her in the same spot, she can move around if she likes and she does. I only use stim when she comes off the designated area and its not high. So not too worried, like I said she is doing well and is not showing any stress from this method.

Im happy with this method and will continue with it.


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## Jon Harris

my two GSD are loose in the house whether Im there or not. I have always had a dog door so they come and go as they please. They house broke themselves. Ive never had an accident that way unless I had them blocked inside and they couldnt get out. Careless mistake ion my part not to be repeated.

Everything is good but---- last week while I was gone my youngest GSD Tito decided to eat the TV remote. I left it in reach, They are always teaching me what to do and not to do.

That is about the only issue I have had. I only use crates for travel or if im in a hotel but not at home.


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## Wiktoria Przybyłowska

I often leave my dog loose, Joop older Gsd never chewed anything, he is like an angel, but second young Demon Gsd, when he was a puppy, he was a monster! He chewed everything : bed, chair, pillows, my work mobile phone.:twisted: Now, when I leave them loose is ok, they have their toys, snacks or when I have to leave them a long time i give them before hard and long training, it's simply and smart \\/


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## susan tuck

Jon Harris said:


> Everything is good but---- last week while I was gone my youngest GSD Tito decided to eat the TV remote. I left it in reach, They are always teaching me what to do and not to do.


I had a female GSD that I had to re-home when she around 6 months old. Her name was Evelyn. Anyway, while I had her, she had a thing for remotes, if she could snatch one, she would take it in the back yard and bury it. I recently spoke with the people I placed her with. She's well over 2 years old but still has a thing for remotes!!!


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## Jon Harris

dont know why but that was all he messed with.
Now my bomb dog here in Iraq has destroyed three pair of glasses. That is the only thing he goes after. Last night I found he had chewed up my last set. Luckily he didnt break the lens so with super glue duct tape 550 cord and a lighter as well as the pliers on my leatherman tool i have a workable set left but there are no more chances. If he gets these again ill be in a bad place


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## susan tuck

Jon Harris said:


> dont know why but that was all he messed with.
> Now my bomb dog here in Iraq has destroyed three pair of glasses. That is the only thing he goes after. Last night I found he had chewed up my last set. Luckily he didnt break the lens so with super glue duct tape 550 cord and a lighter as well as the pliers on my leatherman tool i have a workable set left but there are no more chances. If he gets these again ill be in a bad place


Hey McGuiver, would you please post a picture of those glasses you "fixed"? 
8)


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## Meg O'Donovan

susan tuck said:


> Hey McGuiver, would you please post a picture of those glasses you "fixed"?
> 8)


+1

My Mal has an obsession with phones. Hasn't tried to destroy them (but might if left to that) but wants to find and keep them and carry them in her mouth. I think it is because there is a lot of human scent on them. Maybe that's the attraction of the TV remote or your glasses (lots of use= lots of your scent).

Flo-jo (Mal) seems to relish having as much human scent as she can snuff in, anytime anywhere. Maybe it is because she associates the human scent with her SAR training for which she shows 100% enthusiasm. Nice to have find the right focus for her energies.

I don't think my GSD ever chewed up or destroyed anything in the house, even when she was teething. She always had access to lots of bones and things she was allowed to chew.

As Wiktoria noted, with lots of physical exercise, the dogs do settle better inside.


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## Jon Harris

put back together. spent about half an hour just straighten the frames so the lens would go by in


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## David Winners

Meg O'Donovan said:


> +1
> 
> My Mal has an obsession with phones. Hasn't tried to destroy them (but might if left to that) but wants to find and keep them and carry them in her mouth. I think it is because there is a lot of human scent on them. Maybe that's the attraction of the TV remote or your glasses (lots of use= lots of your scent).
> 
> Flo-jo (Mal) seems to relish having as much human scent as she can snuff in, anytime anywhere. Maybe it is because she associates the human scent with her SAR training for which she shows 100% enthusiasm. Nice to have find the right focus for her energies.
> 
> I don't think my GSD ever chewed up or destroyed anything in the house, even when she was teething. She always had access to lots of bones and things she was allowed to chew.
> 
> As Wiktoria noted, with lots of physical exercise, the dogs do settle better inside.


I'd be imprinting her on cell phones and hitting up the local prisons 

David Winners


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## Terrasita Cuffie

David Winners said:


> I'd be imprinting her on cell phones and hitting up the local prisons
> 
> David Winners


Ditto on Khira with the cell phones and things electronic of some sort. She runs loose and doesn't own a crate but I put the electrical/battery stuff up.

T


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## susan tuck

Jon Harris said:


> put back together. spent about half an hour just straighten the frames so the lens would go by in


damn Jon, nice work on those glasses, they don't look anything like I thought they would!


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## Jon Harris

should have seen them when i found them


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## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> I had a female GSD that I had to re-home when she around 6 months old. Her name was Evelyn. Anyway, while I had her, she had a thing for remotes, if she could snatch one, she would take it in the back yard and bury it. I recently spoke with the people I placed her with. She's well over 2 years old but still has a thing for remotes!!!


a friend of mine's dog has a remote fetish and shoe fetish, and cell phone fetish...never chews up any of them...just carries them off to his dog bed and hides them, like a ferret would.


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