# Making a dog "safe"



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

With all the PPD discussions I thought I would ask something on a different side. I am much more concerned about having a safe dog than one who would protect me.

When I got Grim I know the original owner (Ted Van Der Woude, Queen City K9) had worked him in prey and defense - so he has some bitwork. Grim is not a reactive dog - (alhtough he does show guarding behaviors in his car crate) and in almost 2 years I have not seen him percieve a threat - he blows off rude dogs and has never reacted to strange people; he pretty much ignores them. 

The only exceptions, the first day I had him home, my husband accidently stepped on his foot and he nailed him, but it was a controlled bite with no skin penetration and no other behavior after that - nothing since then and he has had his normal share of people tresspassing on his body. He does get jazzed up when he sees runaways, but I am only working him in cadaver. He is also a bit pushy when people break out the plastic water bottles - barks at them to throw the bottle, which I correct verbally. 

I know sportwork is a good way to ensure control of a dog under pressure but I really don't have the time to do that. Short of getting involved in schutzhund, are there things I can do to further make sure he is safe? He is accustomed to strangers coming in my house and shows no interest in them but no avoidance either.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: Making a dot "safe"*

Lots of sociolization, which no doubt you do, and the full knowledge the he is NOT to put his mouth on anyone, ever. Absolutely no need in your situation.
Most important, to me, is a clear headed dog. Grim sounds like he fits that bill. The strangers in your house situation tells me he's not a threat for unwarented bites. The "no interest,no avoidance" is typical of many adult GSDs.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: Making a dot "safe"*

Socialization - we do a good but of that, and I am planning on restarting a weekly trip to a friends Puppy K in Feb. He is a good demo dog for the CGC and she is a past show dog breeder (not GSDs) and likes to show off a real GSD after the skittish kangaroo dogs she has seen in class and at the kennel club. [she does not do the free for all puppy playtime  ]

He does get really pushy when he wants a toy which has taken a lot of patience on my part. I am requiring that only silent calm behavior will result in my throwing the toy. I think he must have had some training with bark and hold because that happened on a recent search.

At a break, I got engrossed in updating our map and Grim started barking. Turned around and my flanker was backed up against a tree with the dog sitting in front of him barking for the water bottle... 

I stopped that but it was unsettling for the flanker, who was not a dog person so I got to thinking, we don't always get to have other dog handlers flank us. Fortunately, they made peace and played fetch all the way back from the search, but I am working harder now on extinguishing that behavior.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I think this fits in with this topic...

I've had Deja now for several months. She's been great, but there's one thing that I'm unsure of with her. We RARELY have visitors, other than a few family members every now and then and one or two of Adam's friends whenever they're in town, but Deja has shown mixed reactions whenever we invite people in, and I'm really not sure how to interpret one of them. 

For example, Adam's friend, Stephen, who lives in Charleston, came over to the house on Sunday. He was in town for the weekend. He is in the Air Force and works with Security Forces on the base in Charleston. He has been around some of their MWD's, and has learned not to make eye contact, talk to, or try to pet those dogs, and he does the same with my dogs when he comes in. Deja greeted him happily, and when he got in the house and sat down, I put all three dogs in a down, so they could calm down instead of mauling him for attention. When I allowed them back up again, she pretty much ignored him, unless Jak was in his face begging for attention, and then she would go push herself between him and Jak, at which point he would stop petting altogether and they would go away. 

On the other hand, though, when my aunt and/or cousin comes into the house, Deja happily greets them with wagging tail, just like with Stephen, but makes these growly-type noises. She doesn't raise her hackles, stiffen up, or anything like that, but she does not seem comfortable with them being there. If they try to pet her, or say something to her, she kind of makes a growly-snarly noise and avoids contact, but has never drawn her lips back or tried to bite them. I tell them, just like I do everyone else, to ignore the dogs when they come in, and they pretty much do. The only real difference I can think of is that they don't ever come to _stay_ for any period of time, so they don't sit down, and usually don't even take off their coats. Deja has done this with them three times now, which is starting to concern me. I'm not sure why she is doing it, and I don't know whether, or how, to properly correct it. I know I haven't explained it well; I can try to get it on video if I need to.

The reason it's such an issue is because they are the ones who take care of the dogs and cats for me when I'm not able to (if I'm going to be late coming home from work, or when we go away for a weekend or whatever and don't take them with us, etc.). Otherwise I'd just put Deja in another room or whatever.

I thought about letting them take Deja for walks (I would go along with them), but so far haven't done anything.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Nancy: I don't think you have anything to worry about. Grim shows that he can tolerate strangers and other dogs. The dog is awsome. I do agree that the bark for what he preceives as a toy could be scarry for a non dog person. Also that it is a trained response to get what he wants. ie.. bark and hold for a bite on the sleeve. 

(Boy it sounds good though... not wimpy at all) 
The move from the bark to silence and eye contact to get the toy will be an easy transition for him. It reminds me of what one trainer said, I want say his name. But if you remeber he trained his bomb dog with an agressive response until he had learned the task. Then moved it to passive before he gave the reward. Seems to be working pretty good for him in doing it that way.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What was the reason he had the flanker up against the tree? Show of a toy, stick, etc?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The flanker was drinking out of one of those plastic bottles - I have been guilty in the past of using them as toys. I imagine he must have squeezed it - you know that noise they make that drives them crazy.

As soon as I heard it I stopped Grim..it was not for long at all, but I was oblivious because I was having GPS problems with the waypoints not lining up with the terrain, so I had been focused on that and not the dog. 

But the guy was really scared........he said "is he going to bite me?", I said, "no he just wanted the water bottle....." at which point the guy threw it as far he could half full of water. I really felt bad for him. 

It does not intimidate me or other dog folks I guess, but I did not realize the fear it could strike in someone else. So, even though I kinda like it when he gets pushy, I figure it would be best to end it. I don't need a dog going off on people drinking out of bottles..........................


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That was a understandable situation. I agree that it would be pretty freaky from a non dog person's viewpoint.
Maybe do a little proofing off of people with water bottles. Most drivy dogs love them but this showed a situation that could creat problems under different conditions. 
Lots of petting from others on the team but reward based play only from you.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Thanks Bob, Patrick ................... so my take is. Since the dog is stable, does not jump into defense, and is well socilaized I probably should not worry about control during the possible situation where he may go into defense, as it likely will not happen.

Make sure only I am associated with the tug object and continue my working on patience on his part when I hold a toy and desenstize him to water bottles. 

Now there is one situation where he is a bit intimidating.

HOW would I train so that someone else could take him out of the truck safely if I am not there? He does get pretty agitated if I am not standing right there and someone is within about 5' of the truck. We are trying to desenstize him to people standing around the truck and not leaving when he barks, but this has not subsided - - it is a deep steady but not fast bark, no hackes, no growls. I would like to stop the barking (I can control him verbally if I am there) but am hesitant to put a bark collar on him under this situation, as I don't want him to associate shock with the person.

Our standards do require a teammate can take the dog out of the truck and he is a bit intimidating. Or should I train him to let selected teamates put him in and out of the truck? 

I have let him go off with someone to whom I handed the lead for a weekend in THEIR vehicle and there was no problem.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Make sure only I am associated with the tug object and continue my working on patience on his part when I hold a toy and desenstize him to water bottles.


Nancy: We recently fixed a similar water bottle problem with a dog on our FEMA USAR team. This method works best with dogs who prefer the "game" (interaction/tugging with the helper) over possession of the reward toy itself. This is a somewhat simplified explanation, but basically we allow the dog full access to the water bottles on the ground during a very easy alert training exercise. The dog is allowed to interact with, chew on, or pick up the water bottles with no correction. If a dog fits the criteria I mentioned above, it will soon realize the bottles aren't very much fun (they don't satisfy the drive to play/tug/fight) and will chose to alert on the helper/scent source to initiate the game instead of playing with the water bottles. A few repetitions of this and the dog chooses to ignore the water bottles completely. For extremely bottle-motivated dogs, you can also set this up so the dog can see the water bottles but can't physically gain access to them. You don't correct them for focusing on the bottles in this situation either, but rather you let them figure out they can't get to the bottles on their own and immediately reward them for alerting on the helper/scent source.

By training a dog this way, you allow the dog to choose to ignore the bottles in its own, which seems to be pretty powerful stuff. We stole this idea from Randy Hare of Alpha K9 and you can see video of his methods and results on his website.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

An interesting discussion for me. My problem is a male who has no hesitation in biting people. Socialization as a pup did not seem to help. He won't react to people, in fact he will sit there and *look* at them, which makes it worse as it leads them to believe he wants them to come over and pet him. Since he is not growling, barking, or telling them to 'go away', they get angry when I tell them he is no way the kind of dog you pet. They will say things like, "Oh, I've met a Doberman or a Shepherd and you can't even get close to the fence..." and insist my dog is safe. 

The only thing that has worked so far is treating him like a loaded gun and control to the highest extreme. Now he doesn't stare at random people in the hopes of baiting them close enough to bite, he will just ignore them and his threshold seems to have increased significantly...people can be right beside me and he wouldn't care as long as they keep their hands off me. I don't take liberties with him, though, ever.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Nancy: We recently fixed a similar water bottle problem with a dog on our FEMA USAR team. This method works best with dogs who prefer the "game" (interaction/tugging with the helper) over possession of the reward toy itself. This is a somewhat simplified explanation, but basically we allow the dog full access to the water bottles on the ground during a very easy alert training exercise. The dog is allowed to interact with, chew on, or pick up the water bottles with no correction. If a dog fits the criteria I mentioned above, it will soon realize the bottles aren't very much fun (they don't satisfy the drive to play/tug/fight) and will chose to alert on the helper/scent source to initiate the game instead of playing with the water bottles. A few repetitions of this and the dog chooses to ignore the water bottles completely. For extremely bottle-motivated dogs, you can also set this up so the dog can see the water bottles but can't physically gain access to them. You don't correct them for focusing on the bottles in this situation either, but rather you let them figure out they can't get to the bottles on their own and immediately reward them for alerting on the helper/scent source.
> 
> By training a dog this way, you allow the dog to choose to ignore the bottles in its own, which seems to be pretty powerful stuff. We stole this idea from Randy Hare of Alpha K9 and you can see video of his methods and results on his website.


Is this the video - I think for him it is strictly the game - he is not a natural retriever but he quickly looses interest in a toy if it is not associated with a person (or other dog, like tugging a big stick) ------ This occured while we were on a break, not while he was working but the videos can give some insight:

He would not have trouble with this IF the balls were not moving while he went into the area
http://www.alphak9.com/gallery/Vidoe-Clips/VETO_75_5


He would have trouble with this - ball bouncing around in front of him while working: Is this the one you mean? He only gets it if he gives the trained indication at source? That WOULD help me ---**
http://www.alphak9.com/gallery/Vidoe-Clips/700_kbs_4

This is a video of him before I got him - unfortunately I can't link to the video but it is 3rd one from bottom on right - that is bottles hitting his head while holding an alert
http://www.k-9bsd.com/videos.htm


Now we have gotten sloppy on the use of the release marker "yes" which the fellow we were working with for cadaver training did not use - we simply threw a ball at source. He did start with a sit and stare at source but he just sits close to source now as I have not required the sit and stare thing. But he is also not only working rows of boxes ......... we have focused on a wide range of problems in difficult areas (unstable surfaces, tunnels, hi, low, old, fresh, small sources, big sources, buried, hanging, etc.) - He does, however, still hold his alert nicely.

**the fishing bobber problem where he was working an area and took off after a fishing bobber on someones fishing line as it went flying into the lake.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Yes - those are the videos I'm referring to.

If the problems you're having occur when the dog is not searching, then it seems like it would be an obedience/control issue. When he's not under the command to search - what do you think about telling him what to do instead (sit or down stay or similar)? That way he can't make up his own games (barking at flanker with water bottle). I know this doesn't address your overall issue (especially with the vehicle), but it would help in some specific situations.

As for the bobber in the water, I think adapting Randy's methods to your water training would help immensely. I would put a few bobbers in the water along with an easy find. If he alerted or focused on the bobbers, I would ignore him. He will eventually give up and focus on the HR scent he knows will bring the toy to him. Once he does that, I would immediately reward him. He'll quickly learn that the only way to get his reward is to alert at the HR scent. With this type of training, start with an easy, low key distraction and increase the distraction. Mistakes from the dog are OK - they'll disappear over time once the dog knows what behaviors bring the reward.

Thoughts?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well the bobbers in the water would not interest him unless they were (as in our bobber incident) attached to a line and flying out into the lake. That is why the video of the man teasing the dog with the moving ball while he was working looked more relevant ----- I DO have another dog who is visual and we did do a lot of water problems with buoys, bottles, balls, etc floating on the water because she would alert on them and we just had to extinguish the behavior.

It is moving balls that distract him there - for example we were working him on the boat and a person on shore was throwing balls for their dog. He flew out of the boat and headed for the ball. A diver "overthrew" a ball he flew off the boat and almost took me and the boat with him. They guy with the bobbers was casting his line and the bobber was airborne. I was able to recall him from the guy on shore with the balls and the bobber but not till the last minute. 

Right now I AM working on control (down stay) while tossing a toy around in my hand or moving around with it. I am going to start rolling it soon. I do think a down stay while I am not watching him directly makes sense. So, I DO know I have a control issue with moving balls and am working on it. I thought of the ecollar or corrections but I don't want to risk cutting into his drive.

Yah, the vehicle is the more "making a dog safe" issue.

And we have the other two dogs in the thread too .................

Kristen's and Lyn's with different concerns.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Thought I would recap the questions to get back on track - Kristen, Lyn please correct me if I got it wrong for you. 

*Nancy*: Dog guards crate in truck, but team members need to be able to get him out of crate and put him back in. Any suggestions? Outside of crate he has zero issues with aggression. People can put him and and out of other crates just not his crate in his truck. [Well no one has tried, he has an intimidating ears forward deep bark, but no growl , no hackles, when someone is within about 10 feet of the truck and I am not there]

*Kristin*: Not sure how to interpret her dogs behavior when family members come over-no aversive behaviors or aggressive behaviors but a little bit growly. Not a lot of socializiation with others people in her house.

*Lyn*: appears to have confident but protective dog. People, used to low threshold fearful growly barky dogs think her dog is friendly because he is quiet and nonreactive and they want to pet it. Her concern is possible reaction if people put their hands on her so she treats him like a loaded gun.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Nancy, for your dog I would do two things. 
1) teach him that doing the bark/hold never gets him a reward. Instead give him a non-compatible behavior to perform, such as laying down and being quiet. The down is good because even if he just can't keep quiet, he's not going to be nearly as intimidating to a non-dog person if he's downing and doing a little barking. 
2) start having people come up to your vehicle and give the dog treats through the door/windows while it's in the crate. At first you can be nearby, so the dog sees you and realizes this is all OK. This way you can also assure them it's OK if they get defensive. Eventually the dog will start to look at people coming up to the vehicle as a good thing, an "I get treats" thing. Especially since it sounds like your dog isn't a defensive dog in general. Then you can start having them come up, feed a treat, and open the door and let the dog come out. Once again, with you there. Obviously go with your gut, but it sounds like with this dog even if he's barking a little if they ignore him and just open the crate up he'll go "oh, OK, I get to come out, Hi person". Eventually graduate to having people come up and feed treats and let him out when you are there. You can even keep a bag of treats somewhere in the vehicle, and have people use those, so he knows when someone comes up and goes for my bag, it's treat time and maybe even a walk. 

You are making the dog easier to posion or steal with this training, but it sounds like that's a neccessary risk to obtain the handling skills he needs. And if it's always your teammates who are doing the treating, he may begin to differentiate between those people and others. Most of my dogs could be removed from my vehicle by my FR club members, but not by a stranger. They might carry on in the crate, but as soon as it was opened they would be saying "oh hey ... how you doing"


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi Kristin,

Many dogs become addicted to neurotransmitters, and learn to trigger them using various props - like the mailman coming by, visitors, the sight of other dogs… It can have little to do with any specific experience except that within that context, the dog experienced a neurotransmitter high. We normally talk about an adrenaline high, but technically, it is actually thought to be a dopamine high. 

It sounds to me that Deja may fit this category. 

If I work with a dog like this, I correct this situation immediately, as I find it self-reinforcing and self-escalating. It does not, in my experience, ever lead to a good thing. As the dog becomes increasingly "adrenalized", it becomes less responsive, less able to think, and experiences a growing urge to "go to catharsis" or satiation. In other words, to challenge/bite.

And, your friend Stephen is breaking the dog’s attempt to get adrenalized by refusing to engage her. However, with your less dog savvy friends, it sounds to me like she is trying to manipulate them into providing some excitement, and getting revved up for it, in case they do. 

It sounds like there is a good reason your guests are not sitting down, or even taking their coats off. But, you may be able to change that in short order. Until you do, I would not consider her safe to leave with them, and I would not allow her to feed her habit, or be near them without being under control.

I am new to this forum. I come from a long history of working with high drive dogs and other high-risk animals - with public contact. I think that teaching a dog to be safe is one of the most important things you can do for that dog to ensure they have a long, healthy, happy life.

By the way, I see plenty of incompletely trained working dogs that walk around trying to nip at arms and make hard eye contact . Human warriors are not allowed to walk around looking for trouble and a well-trained protection, intercept, police or other similarly skilled dog need not either. It can take minutes to teach a dog to not respond to stares, and it is good safety preparation.

Regards,
Kayce Cover


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Kayce. Interesting response.

Let me update a little on Deja's behavior. Due to my cousin's basketball schedule, I have not been able to get her and my aunt to start coming down to the house on a more regular basis, so Deja has not been around them or seen them since I last posted to this topic.

However, my younger brother and my mom _have_ been to the house since then, and Deja had not met them previously. Just to be on the safe side, I put a leash on her about half an hour or so before they were going to arrive, and just let her drag it around until they got there. The first time, it was just my brother, coming to borrow my digital camera, and I let him in and she woofed a couple of times at him, but I immediately told her no and popped the leash when she did it. After that, she put her ears down and started wagging her tail and wanting to approach him, so I allowed her to go up to him. He was squatted down already petting on Gypsy, my chow mix. She had no problems letting him pet on her, and I was able to drop the leash and he came on in and got the camera, petted her some more (she never growled or nipped at him or anything), and then left. He was only in the house for a few minutes, and he did not remove his coat or sit down either.

A couple of nights ago, my mother brought him over (he lost his license so he has to be chauffeured everywhere now) so he could use my laptop to buy some car parts on Ebay. I again put Deja's leash on about half an hour before they got there, and allowed them to come into the house before letting her loose. She had never met my mother before, but my mother is not really a dog person, so she's not interested in petting or anything. She did, however, speak to Deja, and Deja responded by wagging her tail and going to her. No uneasiness or aggression at all.




OTOH, she tried to eat the Nielson Ratings guy through the storm door, when he came to the house week-before-last. :wink: Luckily, my husband had the good sense to put her away before letting him in, and not letting her out to interact with him.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Outstanding and glad to hear it. Soon, you will have her taking responsbility for her own behavior.

Regards,
Kayce Cover


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Hello Nancy, Just from your short story about Grim, I would assume he is simply good nerved and aloof. I like a pushy dog, constantly pushing play games especially on strangers. Shows me confidence.

In regards to finding ways to see his threshhold for nerves. Depending on the sport, you may never find it. I have seen many Sport dogs nervy as hell get taught in such a controlled, predictable, and safe manner the dogs do well.

They you run into other issues, you need an experienced and ethical decoy to look into your dogs character. I find many new decoys are all to willing to challenge a dog and run them. Which even the strongest GSDs if they never saw a clatter stick can easily be overwhelmed by it. 

I am a little confused as to your goal though. Do you want him tested in Protection? Or do you want to make sure he will never attack anyone unprovoked? 

My game plans with detection dogs that have a serious side as well. I focus their lives on the toy and game only. So everywhere they travel, the only possible things on their minds is the game. Going in the car, leads to game playing, coming out of the crate leads to game playing, going to the park etc...

Once you introduce other memories to him, he will learn other associations that may be disstracting to hunting. 

Bryan













Nancy Jocoy said:


> With all the PPD discussions I thought I would ask something on a different side. I am much more concerned about having a safe dog than one who would protect me.
> 
> When I got Grim I know the original owner (Ted Van Der Woude, Queen City K9) had worked him in prey and defense - so he has some bitwork. Grim is not a reactive dog - (alhtough he does show guarding behaviors in his car crate) and in almost 2 years I have not seen him percieve a threat - he blows off rude dogs and has never reacted to strange people; he pretty much ignores them.
> 
> ...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Brian for me ......... I would like to know if he has the "right stuff' all the way around should I decide to breed himin the future as I have recieved some real complements on him from people who work dogs for a living and people who work dogs in SAR. I would like to know he is not missing that part of his character....obviously a lot more than this will go into the calculus. 

Our ONLY goal in life is to find cadaver  [and be safe]

Now for the crate barking, We have a gameplan of just having folks walk up to the truck, hanging out until he stops (which he eventually does), saying good boy and walking off, after he got used to his space being invaded and his invader not leaving, he actually got friendly towards them. He has never snapped or hackled during the barking escapades.

We did some of that thie past weekend at training - we are going to try to get people to camp out around the truck and ignore him ----- I have had one LE and the training director of another team who have worked through this situation and have witnessed his behavior say it should work wtih some real diligence............ We have noticed the behavior is more pronounced when my female is in the truck next to him (and of course she only barks at other dogs  ) so, I guess, another indication it is guarding behavior on his part..


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi Nancy,

Speaking of making dogs safe, I am wondering what standard safety training or preparation occurs with you/your group for encountering bear, panther, feral dogs, snakes, etc. 

Kayce Cover


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

That is a good question - we really don't have a standard for bears and panthers other than working dogs with bells in the woods and going in crews and not alone. And using standard precautions Most of us are used to camping in this area. Our dogs have to have a good recall (but depending on the circumstance.........I have grandkids and hope to get to know their kids someday, my dog is just a dog)

We have talked about not sending out a single person on night training excercises (to hide) in possible areas with these animals. Our big cats are not as familiarized with people as the ones on the left coast; I have never seen one in person but know they are out there  . We do have coyotes, big ones, once again pretty secretive.

We have certainly worked in areas where these predators exist but have bigger concerns for the marijuana growers/booby traps and hidden meth labs. I have been shot at by a human (warning shots, he was pretty far away with a shotgun but hollering and shooting towards us) during a canoe trip many years ago, have seen a few bears, even had one go through a campsite at night, but have never been threatened by one. I feel safer in the woods than some of the urban areas we have been in.

We have snakes but don't snake proof the dogs. Have had some copperhead bites (dogs). Have seen snakes too, but once again - common sense and know what to do if you get bit.

Where there is a known threat - like a recent swamp cadaver search - LE who accompanied us took guns for shooting any feral pigs or alligators who might cause problems. 

With the dog, I did have an experience where we were working past an area and it was the ONLY time I have ever seen him hackle. Ears went flat back. He actually stood on point. As we past the area he stayed between me and it but he was real subdued and his tail was low and he was real close to me {he usually ranges out} Coming back about 30 minutes later he was absolutely fine. A more seasoned handler told me it was probably a bear as the area was heaviliy populated with them -- I am going to have a certain amount of trust that my dog will pick up on something amiss before I do.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks for explaining. I have done some work in Florida, with a SAR dog and insisted that we cover recognition, detection, alert and response to alligators, snakes, bear and panther, and avoidance for toads, tortoises (protected and snakes like to den in their burroughs), and other animals.

The alligator training was particularly interesting! Partly because the dog really had a hard time picking up on the alligator in the water, even at close range, with the head floating. With their ability to detect underwater scent, I am hoping that she will now be able to be safe with them as well.

I was surprised to learn that defanging is dangerous to the snakes and that the venom sacs grow back anyway. We did not use defanged snakes for this reason.

Very interesting to learn of the risks from drug culture. The whole thing is interesting!

Regards,
Kayce Cover


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

My spin, the only way to have a "safe" dog is to not have one at all. How many folks are *REAL K9 mind readers*? Well, OK my point. To be 100% safe is a feel good, cop out answer. No matter how much training you do with the dog, you can never be 100% sure. NEVER! Your dog bit your husband for stepping on its foot. If someone stepped on your foot you would react too.

I get calls from folks who want PPDs and they don't want the dog to BITE! What?!!!!!!!!! That's like owning a handgun and not purchasing the ammo to got with it. Show the threat and not the FORCE! Right!!!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Howard, you sure took the comment about the dog biting my husband entirely out of context.................I went back and re-read the thread What is your point? Nothing in life is 100%.

There is a big difference between being a responsible dog owner and excercising due diligence to being oblivious and expecting the dog to use "proper judgement" at all times..


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Nancy, I in NO WAY meant that you weren't a "responsible handler or person," shine...I don't even know you! MY point was and still is that no one can predict what a dog will do. If it came out wrong, I'm big enough to clear the air and make it right if I can. Nothing at you or your husband. The dog REACTED...](*,)

The only thing in life that is 100% is death...that is a fact.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We did some of that thie past weekend at training - we are going to try to get people to camp out around the truck and ignore him ----- I have had one LE and the training director of another team who have worked through this situation and have witnessed his behavior say it should work wtih some real diligence............ We have noticed the behavior is more pronounced when my female is in the truck next to him (and of course she only barks at other dogs  ) so, I guess, another indication it is guarding behavior on his part..


Ok, guarding behaviour....

How is the "camping out" going? My dog does the same thing, and I'll tell you...there is no way someone (except my family) would be able to get him out of the truck...

I've tried a number of methods and have been told this is territorial and the only way to "fix" it is with e-collar. Don't really want to go there at this point...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I will let you know as we progress - a few team trainings are coming up. I have a friend who teaches puppy class starting in Feb and I may go bribe some of her classmates with small tubes of "puppy crack" to go out and do this, too.

I don't have problems with the e-collar but I don't think for this, for now, its appropriate.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Nancy: "Now for the crate barking, We have a gameplan of just having folks walk up to the truck, hanging out until he stops (which he eventually does), saying good boy and walking off, after he got used to his space being invaded and his invader not leaving, he actually got friendly towards them. "

Hi Nancy,

This is a place where we use naming a lot. First we decide under which conditions barking is encouraged, and to what point. Then we name those situations/conditions for the dog and tell him what we want him to do next/instead. Then we all agree on the protocol, which is usually something like this: BEFORE approaching the crate/vehicle, call out dog's name, saying "Good easy dog! It's Kayce, passing the car, be easy... xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx....xxxxxX" as we pass the car. We will intensify the x's as we actually pass, and then fade them back. If the dog starts to bark, we will say, "that's barking, can you be easy?" and stop moving till he stops barking.

It is a bit the opposite of what you are saying, we stop until he stops, and then proceed forward, instead of going into his space and then stopping until he stops. One reason for this is you leave a bigger safety margin when working with unknown dogs. Another reason is that barking is self-rewarding, and we try to break the neurotransmitter cycle so that the instant he barks, he never gets to get all worked up over things, and self-reward.

Regards,
Kayce


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

What does xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx mean? Is that just continued talking?


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy	What does xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx mean? Is that just continued talking?

It is the Intermediate Bridge You can hear it here: http://synalia.com/videos/, click on 3) and/or 5)

It ends with the Terminal Bridge, written "X", which ends that behavior, or piece of behavior. It gives the animal feedback that he is doing well, anchors him to the trainer, and gives him earliest possible feeback when he starts to stray (he hears us stop the IB), which then gives him the earliest chance to self-correct.

Best wishes,
Kayce


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Interesting idea! I'm still having a bit of a time grasping it.
If you keep moving past the crate while the dog is barking from the cage, how does this not appear to the dog that you have been "ran off" in his mind. Similar to the mail carrier being "ran off" by the barking dog. (In the dog's mind)


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Bob: Interesting idea! I'm still having a bit of a time grasping it.
If you keep moving past the crate while the dog is barking from the cage, how does this not appear to the dog that you have been "ran off" in his mind. Similar to the mail carrier being "ran off" by the barking dog. (In the dog's mind)

This is a difficult thing to write about. I wrote a paper on it and it is 11 pages long. I will try to hit the high points. I don't blame you for being skeptical. The model I give below is highly tested, but not fully researched. However, I do come from a cell-bio/immunology background in my distant past, and this jives with the material in Candace Pert's book, Molecules of Emotion. Anyway, here goes:

We think it works differently than people think. People generally believe that the dog does not want the mail man there, or wants him to go away. I believe that the dog is using the mail man as a trigger to access neurotransmitters for self-medication. He is accessing adrenaline/dopamine, and the mailman is a prop. If you stop the advance of the mailman until the dog gets quiet again, the dog usually stops barking in order to bring the mail man closer. We train via this protocol with no food and no other punishers and have high success rate. He wants the mailman there so he can ramp himself up, and hence the accelerated barking as the mailman leaves - the dog is making the most out of a waning opportunity.

In the full-blown protocol, we first teach the dog to relax and name it "Easy", and we do the same with the opposing state, "Alert". We work until we can get the dog to switch between the two. Now we know he understands what we are asking for when we ask for "Easy". During this time, many dogs seem to become consciously aware of the joys of relaxation, possibly for the first time. This is critical, because we will be switching the dog over from dopamine/norepinephrin to GABA/serotonin during this training, and teaching him how to access these on his own.

In a perfect world, in Nancy's case, the dog does not bark, and if he does, we have time to stop until he stops and then we retreat and try again. There is a whole protocol for managing these "cycles"

However, I gave a "fast and dirty" description, because the whole write up is a bit long, so I just tweaked what Nancy was already planning, by adding just the use of the Intermediate Bridge. 

There is definitely an art, in the timing and the use of your voice. Not only are you delivering information, which distracts the dog from what he set out to do (bark and get all aroused), but we modulate the bridges to take the dogs focus to what we are saying. It is simple to do but a bit challenging (for me at least) to figure out how to say it.

Normally, we would teach the dog the following tools: IB, TB, Target, Conditioned Relaxation, "Easy," "Alert,"

Then, for this particular case, we would go far enough away that he did not arouse (the threshold) and tell the dog, "be Easy" and step one step toward him and then one step back to our origin, without any pause, bridging all the way, and intensifying the bridge as we prepared to turn and throughout the turn. We would then allow him to rest for a time equal to the walking. After the rest, we do it again, twice as far. Etc. The dog's only job during this training is to relax and maintain the relaxation, as the cycles proceed. During the rest period between the cycles, we help the dog to relax back to baseline, often using massage or skin lifts. Once the dog returns to baseline, we begin the next cycle.

This is very similar to the way killer whales are introduced to people coming into their water space with them.

Now you know why I gave the fast and dirty version. It is tedious to learn, and to do, but it is really effective and has many applications.

To see a sample of this process, different application (dog aggressive to vets), go http://synalia.com/, scroll to bottom, click on "click here for Star’s Big Day"

Kayce


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

This is intriguing. 

One of the challenges I have is getting people to do what I ask them. in the first place. I am afraid this may be too complex. I will have to try it with someone and see if we can model it to others.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi Nancy,

I agree it is complex to just shanghai some observers, at least until you can fill in some of the extra functions (I shanghai people all the time, but.... ;> ).

That is why I just recommend adding the naming and bridging: "I am coming xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" and follow the rest of your protocol as you like.

I do seminars on nothing but this and it is a whole certification branch. But Bob asked an insightful question so I felt I needed to fill in more.

Let me know what happens if you try it. 

Regards,
Kayce


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