# tools used in tracking



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

just ran across this..and opinions on it? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tiKWsiwygI&feature=plcp


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

A visual aid that will have to be phased out later. Waste of time imo.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Different Strokes for different dogs.
The dog had a nice rhythm. So I guess it worked for this dog and trainer. I might consider it for imprinting a puppy, but I'd want to fade it pretty quickly.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

it looked like it worked.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> it looked like it worked.


Agreed, don't argue with success


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Interesting for sure. I'd refrain from saying it worked until I seen the dog track without the aid.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Interesting for sure. I'd refrain from saying it worked until I seen the dog track without the aid.


Ive watched a good amount of tracking vids, and have a fair amount of tracking training exposure..never saw that approach.


very true, too late to edit. 
"it looks like it is working"


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm sure that nice little pup is making that guy look real good to the people watching......especially if all the hoops were coated with bacon fat 
....and i'm jealous if he's making more than i do :-(
.. also made me realize i've forgotten what color shades a dog sees 

when you feed a dog like that it might not make any difference what obstacles you lay in the way ... not sure how it relates to tracking except that the nose stayed on the ground and he alerted on some kinds of articles

on second thought, that's what tracking usually looks like when it's working


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

It looks like it's working??? I see a dog rushing through a series of tiny hula hoops to eat food planted in the middle of each one.

I'd like to see a finished product and how the hoops are phased out. And ask why hoops to begin with.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

will get some scorn no doubt but is it that much different to other tracking aids, even visible footsteps???

Make the task on the new dog very explicit.

Could be a good option for some dogs with appropriate support training and fading.

I like it, but I never foot step tracked.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I am missing why its even needed?


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

julie allen said:


> I am missing why its even needed?


I wondered that too. At first I thought it was so the handler would know where the track was. But then I realized I could see those huge chunks of food from my couch so that can't be it. 

Laura


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I can't see any rhyme or reason for Ivan Balabanov's circular tracks.
But he's won a couple of World Championships, so I guess it works for him?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I can't see any rhyme or reason for Ivan Balabanov's circular tracks.
> But he's won a couple of World Championships, so I guess it works for him?


Makes no sense to me either. But I don't compete for world championships, just track real life. Must be why I don't get it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

doesnt look like it is working? that is why I asked, LOL...

Looks like the puppy sniffed every footstep and found almost all the food pieces to me, isnt that what they are supposed to do? 
(although I could see them as well lol 

puppy did move pretty quick, but the food was NOT in the middle of each hoop, if that is what was seen, it was NOT watched very closely, the pup also hit the steps between the strings of hoops, and got the articles down pretty good. I imagine with a leash the dog would be slowed down some...

Like I said, it looks like it was working to me....and I did like the visual aid (for the viewer of the video at least) as I could really see the dog hitting each side of the hoop alternately and getting the food at a decent pace, for me it was better than watching a puppy walking around slowly, seemingly wandering around sniffing for food, like almost all of the other vids I watch...lol....I imagine they would slow the dog down at some point, using a leash, but who knows...dog might not even be being trained for schutzhund..might have been for something else. They appear to be doing a few things with dogs, sch, agility, rally, akc..

here is an agility vid from the same place, looked good to me as well, but I dont do agility either, so who knows 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AjtYLtLfeU&list=UUcLWHFTCERfvru-SBFPpO6A&index=1&feature=plcp

as far as "why is it even needed" who knows...lol.
there are people that train alot of different things, in different ways. some people dont use any leashes or collars, some people use tables, some dont, some people use electric, some use food, some use toys, etc etc..

kind like an ecollar or a table I suppose, is it needed? no...but people still use them, because they like to...

there are some other tracking videos on there, and the people did title at least 1 dog, to a sch 1, with a tracking score of 98, and second place in a regional trial in 2010, so they could know what they are doing, but who knows for sure .. 

anyhow looked interesting, thought it would stir up some discussion, and it did


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> Makes no sense to me either. But I don't compete for world championships, just track real life. Must be why I don't get it.


if you just track real life, must be hard watching almost all the fst stuff. 
Real life moves fast sometimes...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> if you just track real life, must be hard watching almost all the fst stuff.
> Real life moves fast sometimes...


 You would enjoy my last vid instalment.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Nope I didn't watch too close. Tracking is my dog's favorite thing, not mine. :lol: Watching videos of tracking is right below actually tracking. :-\"

But I didn't see the dog stopping to search for scent, I saw him just jumping from hoop to hoop gobbling up dinner. Does the handler just take the dog out one day and expect it to track without hoops cold turkey?? In which case, what's the difference between starting tracking with and without hoops? 

The only advantage I could see there is that the steps can't be exactly heel to toe to start off...but why not stop laying heel to toe and let the dog figure it out, since by that point he should have already learned to sniff for surface differences and not food. 

I think it's a waste of time (and equipment $$), but I'd like to know what advantage the handler feels this gives his dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Nope I didn't watch too close. Tracking is my dog's favorite thing, not mine. :lol: Watching videos of tracking is right below actually tracking. :-\"
> 
> But I didn't see the dog stopping to search for scent, I saw him just jumping from hoop to hoop gobbling up dinner. Does the handler just take the dog out one day and expect it to track without hoops cold turkey?? In which case, what's the difference between starting tracking with and without hoops?
> 
> ...


could ask them...  ok ok..LOL... *I'll* send them a question or two, see what they come back with...who knows, hope they answer..maybe they dont start heel to toe at all..not everyone does...really cant say..maybe no advantage at all, maybe they just like it..maybe it was just for this video..LOL

I like this kind of tracking personally, and this pup is 9 weeks old...at 9 weeks, I cant imagine they started the puppy heel to toe, or did much with food, certainly not for a year  different kind of tracking though I realize, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K6C4X423PQ&feature=plcp
tracking starts at :55


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Well I'm glad someone here is being logical.

Good video until the :55 mark. I didn't see any hoops???


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Well I'm glad someone here is being logical.
> 
> Good video until the :55 mark. I didn't see any hoops???


didnt see any footsteps or food on the ground either?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> could ask them...  ok ok..LOL... *I'll* send them a question or two, see what they come back with...who knows, hope they answer..maybe they dont start heel to toe at all..not everyone does...really cant say..maybe no advantage at all, maybe they just like it..maybe it was just for this video..LOL
> 
> I like this kind of tracking personally, and this pup is 9 weeks old...at 9 weeks, I cant imagine they started the puppy heel to toe, or did much with food, certainly not for a year  different kind of tracking though I realize,
> 
> ...


 Was that dick staals training?

and i dont think the netherlands police or staal do fst.nice pup though.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> didnt see any footsteps or food on the ground either?


I did not good sir! :grin: (But I didn't watch this one closely either.)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Was that dick staals training?
> 
> and i dont think the netherlands police or staal do fst.nice pup though.


I never said it was FST..I said that is the kind of tracking I would enjoy.

Pat Nolan...14 week pup, no food either...is this FST? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8pxM_FFkHw&feature=relmfu

Either way looks like pretty good tracking to me, alot more interesting than watching a puppy wander around a small area eating food... AND it is heel to toe for a bit even....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would akin it to tracking in the snow. Do it to often enough and some dogs can get dependent on the visual.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

We're also assuming that in each hoop was one footstep. At least I was. Maybe it is laid heel to toe and the hoops are just where the food was? Or a visual aid for the handler? (There are better ways...)

I like tracking in the snow (sometimes) because it's real easy to tell when my dog is lying to me. The rat bastard.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jackie Lockard said:


> We're also assuming that in each hoop was one footstep. At least I was. Maybe it is laid heel to toe and the hoops are just where the food was? Or a visual aid for the handler? (There are better ways...)
> 
> I like tracking in the snow (sometimes) because it's real easy to tell when my dog is lying to me. The rat bastard.



:lol::lol::lol: :wink:


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I never said it was FST..I said that is the kind of tracking I would enjoy.
> 
> Pat Nolan...14 week pup, no food either...is this FST?
> 
> ...


Nice video Joby thanks for putting it up.My mistake i realise now u never said the other vid was fst.my guess that pup is not FST or had a very short intro at the least and moved onto tracking for articles quickly.I love these threads very motivating im going tracking have a TD coming up.:-D


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'd never knock any form of training, if the handlers could show me the finished product, i.e. a long track with a few corners, worked out without food where the dog has it's nose down to the ground all the way.

Each year brings new training aids, maybe necessary, maybe not. We started with nothing on the track and just relied on the dog's eagerness to follow a track which has been "trampled" down by some human. They follow animal tracks, why not humans. From fresh trampled which lets off vegetation gases to older tracks which require the dog to sniff lower to the ground.

Most of the "aids" come from the inexperienced handler's inability to let the pup/dog "*lead*" him through the track as though we didn't know where it was leading to. But this gives the dog confidence. I must admit that I have used less-scented kibble at strategic points on the track to help me know the pup/dog is on the track, although it is "easy" to know when the dog is on the track, just watch its body language! Our younger GSD would wave its tail as long as it was on the track.

It is very difficult but necessary to lay out a track yourself and transmit to the dog that *only* he can lead you to success.


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## Rick Mattox (Dec 8, 2008)

thank you !!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Body language"

I loved watching my dogs head go from side to side from footstep to footstep. . 
Still don't like FST though! :wink:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't understand, but I sure am curious. What is the purpose of the hoops?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Did you guys check out any of their other tracking videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDSEmMxkP4M&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17AhzrtFHhc&feature=relmfu

What is it they have on those dogs? I don't think it's a Bottcher harness, is it? 

Curiouser and curiouser!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, it's something like a Heavy Duty Böttcher Harness (the mind boggles) but can't see the need for it on a dog that is tracking without a line unless its to remind it that it should be tracking :idea:

The 5 month old pup and Druid also have a prong collar and a remote control collar on them. I wondered why the handler had his hand tucked behind his back - I can't see the need for this but then I've never tracked with so many tools.

On the other hand, if it works......


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

The first vid with the hoops...
The track has section of hoops and sections of no hoops so I'm assuming they are gradually taking hoops off the track making the hoop less gaps longer until all hoops are gone. On the hoops the dog looks like he's relying more on the visual aids rushing from one piece of food in the hoop to the next. He looks like he's struggling a little on the first hoop less sections but keeps going then when the hoops are back within visual range he shoots towards them skipping the last couple feet of the hoop less track. It's hard to tell how much of what this dog is doing is actual tracking vs looking for food in hoops.

I think a visual aid might be a good idea but only if it's faded fast enough and I think it helps the handler much more then the dog. Would love to see how this dog does once they transition him completely off the hoops and what that would work like. The dog might also slow down once the visual aid is gone and he has to think more about what he's doing. 





susan tuck said:


> Did you guys check out any of their other tracking videos?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDSEmMxkP4M&feature=relmfu
> 
> ...



First vid, is it just me or does that dog look like he's had his ass seriously kicked on articles and in tracking?

Second vid, why is the guy shoving his foot off to the side of the track at each article??


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> First vid, is it just me or does that dog look like he's had his ass seriously kicked on articles and in tracking?
> 
> Second vid, why is the guy shoving his foot off to the side of the track at each article??


 
Yes I got the same impression with the first dog, seemed like he was tracking with fear of corrections.

Second video I wonder the same thing, marking where the articles were?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I kind of had the same thought about that dog, to say he looks a little flat is kind of an understatement. With the new judging rules that will be a problem.

After reading Gillians post I went back again and looked because I hadn't noticed the ecollar on that 5 month old pup, sure enough there are also ecollars on each of the 4 month old pups in the different tracking with hoops videos.

Marta I see what your saying about how the pups rush into the circles, also as mentioned by Laura, the pieces of food are really REALLy big.

I guess I don't want to say much without having all the info.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I kind of had the same thought about that dog, to say he looks a little flat is kind of an understatement. With the new judging rules that will be a problem.
> 
> After reading Gillians post I went back again and looked because I hadn't noticed the ecollar on that 5 month old pup, sure enough there are also ecollars on each of the 4 month old pups in the different tracking with hoops videos.
> 
> ...


Ya I don't think this makes any sense as a training aide, I think it's setting the dog back in the long run. All this stuff needs to be untrained and retrained. Sure if your goal with this truing was to make a cool vid so some one can say oh wow look I trained my young dog to track off leash.. but the dog isn't really tracking and it's not really off leash (to me an ecollar is a semi-leash)... unless I'm missing some thing monumental that's being done here.. I don't get it


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Maybe the guy is training articles the old Gene England such platz
method?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Could be, good point.

Anyway, same dog's BH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYhVsYpF9sA

Has nothing to do with the thread, but I like it!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> First vid, is it just me or does that dog look like he's had his ass seriously kicked on articles and in tracking?
> 
> Second vid, why is the guy shoving his foot off to the side of the track at each article??


I only watched a little bit of each video. It looked to me like the guy is hiding the remote behind his back. I think it's disingenuous to say the dog is tracking off leash when it's wearing an ecollar. I see an eleven month old puppy tracking like that and wonder how the finished product is going to look. 

The foot thing after each article just looks like he's erasing chalk marks. 

Laura


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> The foot thing after each article just looks like he's erasing chalk marks.
> 
> Laura


That makes perfect sense, thanks.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> First vid, is it just me or does that dog look like he's had his ass seriously kicked on articles and in tracking?


It's you 
It's an 11 month old dog doing some pretty impressive deep nose FST with serpentines and V switch backs and nearly flawless article indications. Most of the people on the WDF wish their dogs tracked that good.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's you
> It's an 11 month old dog doing some pretty impressive deep nose FST with serpentines and V switch backs and nearly flawless article indications. Most of the people on the WDF wish their dogs tracked that good.


One of the big changes that came down the pike with the new rules from FCI was that the judges are to heavily penalize dogs who show obvious signs of stress, in any phase, we were told this could result in MAJOR point deductions.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> One of the big changes that came down the pike with the new rules from FCI was that the judges are to heavily penalize dogs who show obvious signs of stress, in any phase, we were told this could result in MAJOR point deductions.



That's fine but I don't see that much stress in the video. The dog looked more distracted by the person taking the video then anything else. The new IPO rules are a joke. Neither UScA nor DVG has come out with an acceptable English Translation and no one seems able to agree on how long the "pause" is in the BH motion exercises. Do you really think any judge is going to take points if a dog does a picture perfect track based on him thinking the dog is "stressed"?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's fine but I don't see that much stress in the video. The dog looked more distracted by the person taking the video then anything else. The new IPO rules are a joke. Neither UScA nor DVG has come out with an acceptable English Translation and no one seems able to agree on how long the "pause" is in the BH motion exercises. Do you really think any judge is going to take points if a dog does a picture perfect track based on him thinking the dog is "stressed"?


I don't really know whether they will or not, especially something like this which isn't exactly a rule, I was simply relaying what was said in the meeting where the rules were initially explained. I can tell you the rule changes were enforced at the USA Regionals in January.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's you
> It's an 11 month old dog doing some pretty impressive deep nose FST with serpentines and V switch backs and nearly flawless article indications. Most of the people on the WDF wish their dogs tracked that good.


Thomas, sure most here would like their dog to track as well, but I'd rather not see it done that way. That dog was obviously stressed. Look again.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I saw stress, but dogs do get stressed, I don't really have a problem with a dog who is stressed at a particular juncture in his training, my dogs have been stressed at certain points, and absolutely show it at the time, but it doesn't mean the dog is always stressed or even usually stressed, it could just be where they are in his training. Plus many year old dogs are mature enough to start handling pressure and stress.....but as to the puppies, I don't really get using the ecollar, but to each his own I guess.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If someone is good with the e-collar (not me) and uses compulsion for tracking (not me) it is probably a good tool but to call it "off lead" tracking in the video is a sham. The dog may as well be on a 6ft lead.
If the video was an actual trials track with no e-collars, leads, etc then I'd say well done.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

emailed on youtube, and directly, asked a few questions in very nice way about the hoops still no response.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I saw stress, but dogs do get stressed, I don't really have a problem with a dog who is stressed at a particular juncture in his training, my dogs have been stressed at certain points, and absolutely show it at the time, but it doesn't mean the dog is always stressed or even usually stressed, it could just be where they are in his training. Plus many year old dogs are mature enough to start handling pressure and stress.....but as to the puppies, I don't really get using the ecollar, but to each his own I guess.


I may be reading into it, but I thought I saw the type of stress indicative of corrections. If it was just general stress they OK, maybe the dog, but I don't think so.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

The dog is stressed. Or just fearful. It shouldn't be stressed out doing a simple track. 
My 9 month old does as well or better, with tail up and wagging. Offlead footstep tracking. I prefer trailing for real life lost people, but the pup does what's easy for her.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's you
> It's an 11 month old dog doing some pretty impressive deep nose FST with serpentines and V switch backs and nearly flawless article indications. Most of the people on the WDF wish their dogs tracked that good.


No I get dogs can get stressed during hard work and show stress, or that when some are focusing very hard they look like they're stressed. 

This is what I see in this dog that leads me to my comment:

The dog lies down on his first article, he still looks fairly normal at this point, then takes a look back at the approaching handler and his ears go down and his head lowers, he does a lip lick, shifts, and looks away. 

He gets up to continue on the track and quickly hits another article and practically coils into a down with his tail tucked, ears pinned, his down looks like he's trying to hide inside his position, he keeps averting eye contact looking off to the side when the handler approaches (and while on the first article I think he was looking at the camera man, this time he's just trying to avoid the handler looking off to the side). Same thing on the next indication. He relaxes a bit more with the next piece of food and the pat on the back. He continues to tuck and stress lick on the next indication. He gradually relaxes a bit with each consecutive indication but not totally.

Watch the dog go off track at about 2:28, the handler does an audible shove in the ground with his boot, tell me that looks like the reaction of a dog that's focusing hard and isn't just scared and stressed. There's an article almost immediately after that incident, watch how that dog jerks up and away from the handler when the handler goes to pat him and immediately pants to relieve that stress. The stressor to this dog is not the difficulty of the track, it's the presence of the handler.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok..

so the dog is showing signs of stress, and ?

That is one reason I never post OB vids, my dogs ears are back almost all the time in OB..and I dont want to be accused of abusing my dog...

I posted this video of a friends dog one time, and almost all of the feedback was negative, about how the dog was totally stressed out of his mind...

I thought the video showed rather good obedience for a protection dog, I did not really personally care if he was stressed or not, I know the dog, and he is just fine...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLVkM-mQkQ


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

There's a big difference in a dog having his ears pinned and nearly cowering and a dog who just positions his ears backwards while working.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> There's a big difference in a dog having his ears pinned and nearly cowering and a dog who just positions his ears backwards while working.


I can agree with that...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Well I personally don't like seeing a highly stressed dog thanks to the handler. It's not fun to watch for me and I don't feel a good dog needs to be put through such training to succeed. If I had to correct a dog so much that he presented like that, I'd try something else. I realize not everyone will have this opinion, that's OK. The new rules in IPO will be deducting major points for dogs that present overly stressed. One of the new rules I like.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Well I personally don't like seeing a highly stressed dog thanks to the handler. It's not fun to watch for me and I don't feel a good dog needs to be put through such training to succeed. If I had to correct a dog so much that he presented like that, I'd try something else. I realize not everyone will have this opinion, that's OK. The new rules in IPO will be deducting major points for dogs that present overly stressed. One of the new rules I like.


I can agree with that too...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> There's a big difference in a dog having his ears pinned and nearly cowering and a dog who just positions his ears backwards while working.


I can agree with this too.

I don't see forced tracking as a bad thing, with the right dog it's not cruel, but it can look awful in the beginning stages. The thing is, a dog must be hard enough to recover from the stress of forced tracking, and not all dogs can. A hard dog will not continue to look stressed once training is completed, if it was done right. I know a lot of dogs trained with force in tracking and you wouldn't know it by the picture presented on trial day, and these are also happy well cared for dogs. I personally am not skilled enough to train this method, but if I had the right dog, I wouldn't hesitate to train it with someone that I trust who is skilled in the method. 

Like anything else, it's a method, a tool, but it must be used correctly and is not a one size fits all thing.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I don't get the whole forced tracking thing. Again I wouldn't want to rely on a dog to find a lost person that doesn't truly want to do and love his job. 
I don't even give corrections on a track. Unless its something crazy, like the dog critters or totally blows you off. Then, its probably poor training that got to that point once the dog has the idea.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

julie allen said:


> I don't get the whole forced tracking thing. Again I wouldn't want to rely on a dog to find a lost person that doesn't truly want to do and love his job.


I think that would be the difference in goals i.e. training a dog for sport vs training it to perform real life work where lives depend on that performance. You choose your methods (and dogs) based on your end goal. What works and yields sufficient results for one goal can be a disaster for another goal (and this goes either way sport vs work).


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Isnt force tracking meaningless if the handler doesnt know where the track is.

In real tracking force tracked dogs either pretend they are on a track to avoid pain or they deny the track exists, either way the handler is oblivious and the dog is unreliable and fails its job — great technique.

Should be a rule in sport all handlers must endure the same treatment they give their dogs, i would pay to see that.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

julie allen said:


> I don't get the whole forced tracking thing. Again I wouldn't want to rely on a dog to find a lost person that doesn't truly want to do and love his job.
> I don't even give corrections on a track. Unless its something crazy, like the dog critters or totally blows you off. Then, its probably poor training that got to that point once the dog has the idea.


Forced tracking isn't for training a dog who doesn't want to track. It's not a method of last resort or anything like that. Forced tracked dogs absolutely know where the track is. One of the coolest tracks I ever watched was on a dirt field like cement, long long track, the dog nailed the whole thing, force trained dog. The difference is many times in very tough competitions, very difficult tracks, where other dogs may quit, the forced track dog will be able to complete it. This goes back to the right method for the right dog. Just like ecollars can be used incorrectly, force method can be trained incorrectly. Not all methods are good for all dogs.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I would akin it to tracking in the snow. Do it to often enough and some dogs can get dependent on the visual.


As I was reading this I was going to ask about this. So you are saying that you have seen dogs learn to follow visual tracks in the snow when tracking? Are you talking to the point of following the visual tracks and not the odor? Someone else also mentioned something about grass tracks I guess like SCH tracking? I never understood that method either. 
The times I tracked in snow the dogs worked like there were no prints. Although it was a great help for me to better understand why a dog was doing what it was. It was a great aid for the handlers. 
 I could never imagine why a visual aid would ever be used for tracking? Can it train the dog to have a handicap? Or are there some of you that don’t think the dog even uses the visual stuff ever?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> I think that would be the difference in goals i.e. training a dog for sport vs training it to perform real life work where lives depend on that performance. You choose your methods (and dogs) based on your end goal. What works and yields sufficient results for one goal can be a disaster for another goal (and this goes either way sport vs work).


Don’t know nothing about “forced tracking”. Other than not obeying obedience commands when tracking I couldn’t imagine why someone would correct a dog on a track?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> As I was reading this I was going to ask about this. So you are saying that you have seen dogs learn to follow visual tracks in the snow when tracking? Are you talking to the point of following the visual tracks and not the odor? Someone else also mentioned something about grass tracks I guess like SCH tracking? I never understood that method either.
> The times I tracked in snow the dogs worked like there were no prints. Although it was a great help for me to better understand why a dog was doing what it was. It was a great aid for the handlers.
> I could never imagine why a visual aid would ever be used for tracking? Can it train the dog to have a handicap? Or are there some of you that don’t think the dog even uses the visual stuff ever?



It's something that is always a *possibility*! You can see the dog start lifting it's head off the FST and start moving quicker. Corners are cut simply because the dog "sees" the track.
Do they rely on eyes alone? Doubtful (to me) because scent is the dog's primary mode of operating.

Grass tracks
The dog is initially following the scent of crushed grass because it connects the scent of the food to the crushed grass. In real world scent work the dog will use whatever is availible to it. Air scent, ground scent, Vegetation, sight, whatever.
When I first started FST for Schutzhund it was a pia for me. I started my dog started in SAR and he was excellent at real world tracking. Watching a dog work a scent cone at a full run is one of the true delights of scent work. FST is not! :lol: 
In Schutzhund he initially would leave a FST if he air scented the article on another leg of the track. Great nose, just not going to get points is sport doing that.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

has me absolutely f*&^%$ why people are criticising forced track when they dont know what it is.It may not be everyone but some are extremely successful at it and it works for them.As susna said its not for every dog


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I think forcing a dog to do anything, tracking, biting........to progress yr own sporting goals is at least what i find repulsive.

Heard people bag table training but force track. Outside of sport force methods are unreliable except maybe for forced retrieve.

Force a guide dog to...???? 

Force a police dog to pursue.......??? 

Force a therapy dog to be nice.........??? 

Proofing yes, forcing no......its a dam sport.

Would you force a child to play soccer???

Force a man to fight for you....??? 

S ee why its a desperation measure that cant work outside the laboratoryreliably.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I wouldnt train force track but its a method some use with great success.And we make our dogs do things they dont want to do all the time.It simply shows the dog he has no option but to track and track dam well.For me its not my cup of tea but i wont knock people who score 100pts in tracking who use it.Mike schieber who passed i believe used some of this methodology on his dog watch the dogs tracking videos and see if it works and see if his dog looks like a beaten step child:lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Sure never said it doesnt work.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm sure lots of things work. I wouldn't do it simply because I want the dog to enjoy its job. From any venue I have ever seen, the ones that enjoy doing something will work much better. Maybe that's not the case for schutzhund tracking? 
I don't know because I don't compete in dog sports, but I couldn't imagine it working better than letting the dog figure that the reward comes from the track or the end of the track. Maybe im misunderstanding forced tracking?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I think your right Julie we want our dog to enjoy it because i know i enjoy it more if she does too.But as far as natural tracking opposed to forced tracking working better in dogsport if a dog gets a 100pt track with rave reviews and its forced track dog how do you get better then that?

im not trying to defend it just thinks theres many ways to skin a cat:-D

funny how a lot of tracking threads go down the forced track route


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

brad :
"But as far as natural tracking opposed to forced tracking working better in dogsport if a dog gets a 100pt track with rave reviews and its forced track dog how do you get better then that?
..... im not trying to defend it just thinks theres many ways to skin a cat"

sure looked like a "defense" to me 
as in the end justifies the means because that is one way to skin the cat 

i'm assuming that one chooses to force track because they have a dog that won't do it the "other" way and take them where they want to go, competition wise ....
/////or because that was the way they learned from a trainer they respected

would this apply to forced retrieving training techniques too ?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ed Frawley includes a clip for comparison on a dog thats had its butt kicked too much tracking, if 100 points means you own a dog that looks like that then the winner becomes the loser, the 100 point jerk off loser.


Geez i wish more dogs killed their owners......a good news story for a change.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

brad robert said:


> has me absolutely f*&^%$ why people are criticising forced track when they dont know what it is.It may not be everyone but some are extremely successful at it and it works for them.As susna said its not for every dog


Some people equate ecollars with the electric chair, and some people think all force trained dogs must be miserable, that force methods have to be barbaric, but that's simply not the case today, EXCEPT when it's done wrong, like the ecollar it CAN be devastating and ruin a dog. Like most anything, a tool used incorrectly will not produce the desired result. Some people are 100% motivational trainers and some people use multiple training techniques. 

Different strokes!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Some people equate ecollars with the electric chair, and some people think all force trained dogs must be miserable, that force methods have to be barbaric, but that's simply not the case today, EXCEPT when it's done wrong, like the ecollar it CAN be devastating and ruin a dog. Like most anything, a tool used incorrectly will not produce the desired result. Some people are 100% motivational trainers and some people use multiple training techniques.
> 
> Different strokes!


There is obviously a certain amount of force needed in tracking but the dog must retain the confidence to lead the handler through the track.

Some dogs are so forced tracked that when the tracking is difficult, they "look" to the handler for "advice". He is the one who has been giving out instructions. This is bad.

Whatever, the dog must have the instinct to lead the handler to success and only the handler can convey this to him by increasing the dog's confidence, "step by step".

BTW. step by step tracking is something you have thought out over the pond??

We call it "tracking" in Europe even if we put a piece of food în each footstep just at the beginning. I ddn't do this through the whole track as others over here don't.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> There is obviously a certain amount of force needed in tracking but the dog must retain the confidence to lead the handler through the track.
> 
> Some dogs are so forced tracked that when the tracking is difficult, they "look" to the handler for "advice". He is the one who has been giving out instructions. This is bad.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. Force if done wrong, can result in a dog who looks too much to the handler. 

I think maybe the reason it's called footstep/step by step tracking on this side of the pond is to differentiate it from other kinds of sport and real world tracking where the dog isn't required to examine each footstep?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm confused, in a way. We teach dogs to follow a track, with or without "footstep tracking" and with or without food in each step,

We have tracking in our Swiss National Trials 1, 2 3 and we have our tracking sport which involves a track of about 2 km, 2 hous in age.

The "footstep tracking" is a way (maybe) to start off the dogs, nothing more.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm confused, in a way. We teach dogs to follow a track, with or without "footstep tracking" and with or without food in each step,
> 
> We have tracking in our Swiss National Trials 1, 2 3 and we have our tracking sport which involves a track of about 2 km, 2 hous in age.
> 
> The "footstep tracking" is a way (maybe) to start off the dogs, nothing more.


I think many of us here in the US, use the term "footstep tracking" when we are talking about schH tracking in general, which is not correct, because you're right, that is a method of training. We should probably call it simply, (and more accurately), "schH style tracking" or just "schH tracking".

I would love to hear more about your Swiss tracking trials, what does it entail?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Rick i dont consider it a "defense" it is mearly a point of view because i like to be open minded and if you close your mind to things you will stop learning.What if you learnt force track and you picked up something in it that was another tool.Its not about making the dog do something he cant its about training the dog that in no matter what conditions no matter if the dog just doesnt want to track well today that he must work with you and give you 100% would that be any different to applying a correction to a dog that wont stay?


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Comparing the training in Tracking with other Obedience or protection- in my eyes- is a bit unfair...
quite frankly , we do not know what the dog smells, how the dog knows makes connections, he can't tell!!! We just can come up with ideas, to make the dog understand what we want from him.
We cannot teach him to use his nose, he already knows. 
We can only ask/teach him to use his nose in a way we wish it.

Granted I just have seen a few sessions of forced tracking, heared a judge(pro) talking about it, but this was quite frankly enough for me.... don't want to hear or see more- and yes i try to be open minded,too. But this is bordering on upuse- but maybe I don't care that much about the points, but a good working relationship with my dogs...

And it did sound like, you cannot achieve 100 points without forced tracking.... which is just plain wrong.
Tracking is a work that forces one to be industrious in the work, if one wants to be good. And most dogs enjoy it greatly...
a bad day, when do you know if the dog is for some reason not capable of tracking? And you still force him to give 100%, there could be conditions on and arround the ground, we don't know about, and the dog plain is not capable of tracking, maybe there is a cold oncoming, irritaion in the nose...
How do you know...

When my dogs have a bad day in tracking- which doesn't happen very often- actually hardly ever- I call it a day .... try again tomorrow... If they have a bad day- i don't know why, and have no right to force them down the track. Maybe i just have dogs that love to track and they do not feel the need to lie to me, because they know they don't get forced down the track to make it to the end....

I know there are several ways to teach it, and yes one should keep their mind open, another tool in the toolbox is always a good thing.... I have yet to understand the usefullnes of them hoops, but maybe this is something that will work great for some dogs....
I don't know....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Force tracking*

Sometimes the force is minimal and more reducing the dogs options. The dogs foundation should make tracking enjoyable but at some point they can just decide not to track. Some people make the choice of insisting that the dog track when told to.
You can throw another article down and correct the dog to the article (safe zone) or you can have the dog on two lines and keep him from leaving the track until he decides to track again.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

I guess there are different levels of force used.
i do understand that occationally one has to tell the dog to quit goofing of and getting to work, i just have a problem with the levels, where stress rises to a level where learning is not possible anymore, and of course when dogs do things out of fear. and I am not talking about giving one the stinky finger.
Or as you , Thomas said, making the article a safe zone.... 
it just doesn't seem conducive to the drive to go do it. 
Granted I am not an expert,nor do I have lots of trail expereince, but I value a dog that encounters a problem, and works it's butt off to figure it out. Cause you don't always have ideal tracking conditions (whatever that is), and great nerves attached to the back of the line, I also do SAR and i have to rely on my dogs to know what they are doing. Not that often does it happen in Schitzhund, that I do not know where my track is, but I too am mistaken about my track occationally and I live by the motto: "Trust your dog!"


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> I guess there are different levels of force used.
> i do understand that occationally one has to tell the dog to quit goofing of and getting to work, i just have a problem with the levels, where stress rises to a level where learning is not possible anymore


First off, dogs learn in high stress situations all of the time. A smart dog only gets hit by a car once. 

And compulsion in tracking is not about learning, it's about motivation and inhibition. 

And finally, the better compulsion is used the less visible it is.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> First off, dogs learn in high stress situations all of the time. A smart dog only gets hit by a car once.
> 
> And compulsion in tracking is not about learning, it's about motivation and inhibition.
> 
> And finally, the better compulsion is used the less visible it is.


 
High stress levels... yes, learning is possible there, wouldn't use the car hitting as an example for this, since it is kinda like this hurts don't do it again. I am talking about a constant stress level that really *makes* it* impossible* to learn...

Maybe you can elaborate a bit on your compulsion is about motivation and inhibition... and the next comment ,too. We might have a different definiton for that one word... I like to understand!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

kate and Christopher
I think the biggest difference in what the two of you are looking at isn't necessarily about compulsion or no compulsion as much as it is good training or bad training. 
The method of training is all about how it's applied, not what is applied. Just a thought! :wink:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

we could get lost yet again in another quibble about context, semantics and definitions or just say abuse is what any reasonable group of everyday people would say it is and accept as so.

Slick trainer lingo and excuses is unecessary.

QUOTE=Bob Scott;340537]kate and Christopher
I think the biggest difference in what the two of you are looking at isn't necessarily about compulsion or no compulsion as much as it is good training or bad training. 
The method of training is all about how it's applied, not what is applied. Just a thought! :wink:[/QUOTE]


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter u sure your name isnt spelt PETA pity you arent as concerned about the pigs and roos u hunt.Sounds a bit hipocritical?? Just sayen:wink:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i prefer the word duality, ying yang thing, i can live with hypocrysy tho.

BUT, the official response goes sumthin like this;

As much as we hate the task hunting pigs with dogs is done solely for the protection of our fragile ecosystem from this particularly invasive and destructive introduced pest species. Native flora and fauna have been bought to the brink of extinction due to the presence of this veracious all consuming pest which has multiplied to plague proportions destroying delicate wetland habitats and huge crop losses. The use of poison is not viable due to its indiscriminate nature and the risk to native species. the ease at which pigs spread tuberculosis is another factor calling for immeadiatte eradication. Shooting both from a plane and on foot has its limitations due to terrain and vegetation. Hunting with dogs is the most humane, efficient and safe way to protect the environment.

how's that.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I dont think much of it really.To be honest i thought the humane part was funny.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

well it gets the hot city chicks on side.......stupid ....es


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> High stress levels... yes, learning is possible there, wouldn't use the car hitting as an example for this, since it is kinda like this hurts don't do it again.



=; No, you are not allowed to make up your own science. "This hurts don't do it again" is one of the pillars of behavior. Dogs do learn under high stress. This is a fact. Not my fact; a fact of science. 







> I am talking about a constant stress level that really *makes* it* impossible* to learn...


This myth of stress making it impossible for a dog to learn to learn is complete nonsense. I could waste a bunch of my time and explain it to you but that would be on par with explaining to you why you can't milk a unicorn. 

Do you have any examples of circumstances, real or imagined, where a dog would be too stressed to learn? Any studies?



> Maybe you can elaborate a bit on your compulsion is about motivation and inhibition...


Most of the high stress compulsion, that people use in IPO tracking, is not to teach the dog how to track. The dog already knows how to track. Most of the compulsion is used to motivate the dog to track when he doesn't want to and to inhibit the dogs natural tracking methods and instinct. 

For example, the dog is on a very difficult track and the dog is very uncomfortable. He quits and lays down. The handler makes stress/motivates until the dog starts working again. Once the dog is working again the stress stops. The dog LEARNED that the tracking will become more uncomfortable if he stops tracking. 

And I think I understand where you are coming from. Like all of the rest of us you have seen some idiot, holding a remote, with his dog screaming and pissing. And I agree that a dog can't learn in that situation. But it's not the compulsion that is making it so the dog can't learn. It's the idiot holding the remote. He can't train. He can't train using a clicker either.:wink:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

You can make a unicorn?? 


Kewl


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> You can make a unicorn??
> 
> 
> Kewl


Peter,
You can make them.
You just can't milk them ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Peter,
> You can make them.
> You just can't milk them ;-)


 How do you get a halter on one?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> =; No, you are not allowed to make up your own science. "This hurts don't do it again" is one of the pillars of behavior. Dogs do learn under high stress. This is a fact. Not my fact; a fact of science.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Amen and thank god!!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> I think that would be the difference in goals i.e. training a dog for sport vs training it to perform real life work where lives depend on that performance. You choose your methods (and dogs) based on your end goal. What works and yields sufficient results for one goal can be a disaster for another goal (and this goes either way sport vs work).


But the goals are similar - the handlers want to win!! So I would say the training must be the same.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Isnt force tracking meaningless if the handler doesnt know where the track is.
> 
> In real tracking force tracked dogs either pretend they are on a track to avoid pain or they deny the track exists, either way the handler is oblivious and the dog is unreliable and fails its job — great technique.
> 
> Should be a rule in sport all handlers must endure the same treatment they give their dogs, i would pay to see that.


I agree wholeheartedly - a dog trained only in force on tracking can "pretend" to track, i.e. keep his head down and track further in an event to avoid "pain".

I would pay to see that, too.

The trust in the dog is something human beings have to learn - each correction wrongly applied can weaken the dog's performance.

Tracking in the dark is a good way to learn how good your dog is - or during the day "blindfolded" with a colleague.

I guess we have to learn how to trust our dogs to make them confident.

The real key to a successful tracking dog is numerous tracks - over every terrain and in every weather AND to read about how the dog realises the track: the air at floor level is often different at our nose level - in the evening, the heat rises, sometimes causing dogs problems when in higher altitudes, etc. etc. 

BUT there are many books, websites, etc. on this.

*Learn to trust your dog.*


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Gill, my dogs track at a runnng speed, i will not do this blind folded lol.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You mean it would be like the blind leading the blind!!


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> =; No, you are not allowed to make up your own science. "This hurts don't do it again" is one of the pillars of behavior. Dogs do learn under high stress. This is a fact. Not my fact; a fact of science.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


they are easy to find, just punch "affects of stress on learning" in your search engine....

And you answered the question yourself when you agreed that dogs cannot learn in some situations (handler screaming and pissing)... so I guess you know this and do not need a scientific study anyways....  

I am still trying to figure out as in to "what" this motivator is... you are talking about ?!?
You can motivate a dog by encouraging him with uplifting gestures and words, or you can (Iexagurate kick him in the a** and make him get up ...
Helping a dog along and forcing him along still seems to be a bit unclear here...
Is it: let's go we can figure this out ? or is it: Let's go get your lazy behind to work?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> You can motivate a dog by encouraging him with uplifting gestures and words, or you can (Iexagurate kick him in the a** and make him get up ...
> Helping a dog along and forcing him along still seems to be a bit unclear here...
> Is it: let's go we can figure this out ? or is it: Let's go get your lazy behind to work?


there is such a thing as negative motivation.

another example of a Motivator is if I down my dog at 100 ft, and then say... HIER! and immediately hold down the stim button on the ecollar, applying constant stimulation, until the dog is in the position it should be in after re-call, upon which the stim is shut off. coupled with a reward also upon completion, it is very effective.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

The stimm to end is a negative reeinforcer, it works no doubt.

but I am still not clear on what a motivator or stress is to Christopher Smith, he throws a lot of things out there but not an example of how a stress/motivator would look like in his book. The words leave a range of different meanings and i like to be clear on what he means....

his example of the dog hit by a car, would fall into the tactile learning, means the dog was most likely not under stress or ( in fear) when it got hit, but learned* beeing hit* to watch out for this (avoidance learned through positive punishment). 

I do both, tracking for Schutzhund as well as SAR work... I learned to trust my dog and in either venue and my dogs pull me to their track or place of work, work through problems and it is a team effort... 
Trust your dog is our motto.. under many...LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

you say reinforcer, I say motivator...same thing..

google negative motivation....

anyhow forced tracking is used by people who are looking to get 100 pt, or close to 100 pt. tracks consistently. If that is not a goal of yours, then dont do it.. LOL..

very similar to proofing OB. THe dog must obey. the option of not obeying is there, but the dog is motivated to not chose that path...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> You mean it would be like the blind leading the blind!!


Lol, it would indeed. Having said that i would put money on my dogs versus yours and christophers to find a single article at the end of a 
extreme track of yr making, no points for staying one the track, single article at end, first to get their wins.

An honest judge in respective countries could lay track and judge. Vidéos submitted to forum for decision.

Off leash rural, shallow water crossing and some hard surface, neither of which my dogs have done.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Lol, it would indeed. Having said that i would put money on my dogs versus yours and christophers to find a single article at the end of a
> extreme track of yr making, no points for staying one the track, single article at end, first to get their wins.
> 
> An honest judge in respective countries could lay track and judge. Vidéos submitted to forum for decision.
> ...


totally different, apples and oranges..

SchH tracking is not a natural type of tracking, it is all about the dog keeping his nose to the ground and methodically tracking, staying on the track, like a train on a track

does your dog track on pavement well?

I will challenge you to a nightime track in the woods, dog must track and find decoy, and engage decoy by biting him and fighting him until the handler gets there.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nice try, like i would be lured into the woods at night with you, i value my cherry too much. 

So has that ever worked for you before?......tracking, yeah right.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Nice try, like i would be lured into the woods at night with you, i value my cherry too much.
> 
> So has that ever worked for you before?......tracking, yeah right.


it has in the past, but they were not as clever as you are


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Or as cute, lol.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

My dogs have done night tracks, the guys at the end of those tracks were not decoys, they were real folks doing their best to evade capture. None of the dogs were ever forced to track, they do it because they love it more than life.

I know nothing about sport tracking but I do know a little about training dogs to track evading felons. My philosophy is simple, if he don't want to do it get another dog. Life is too short to screw around trying to train an animal with no drive.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I respect your experience Terry as i know u have heaps and agrre on the dog aspect but like said before its apples and oranges FST is not normal and sport work verse real world tracking/trailing are so different


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I hereby nominate you to accept all in country challenges on my behalf. Thank you. 

So you beat your dogs if they lift their nose out of a single foot step?

If it aint schutshund it 'aint' count........lol, just ask christopher.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terry Holstine said:


> My dogs have done night tracks, the guys at the end of those tracks were not decoys, they were real folks doing their best to evade capture. None of the dogs were ever forced to track, they do it because they love it more than life.
> 
> I know nothing about sport tracking but I do know a little about training dogs to track evading felons. My philosophy is simple, if he don't want to do it get another dog. Life is too short to screw around trying to train an animal with no drive.


AGAIN force method has nothing to do with getting a dog to track who doesn't want to track, it's not a method of last resort. In fact the best candidates for forced tracking have TONS of drive and are extremely HARD dogs (dogs who are VERY resilient). Soft low drive shitter types are about the worst candidates because they can't handle even a little pressure. 

Force method is a great method, providing you know what you're doing, and you have the right candidate, if you are looking for consistently high scores.

Those who don't want to do it, shouldn't. Those who do, should.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Those who do shouldnt, those who do suck.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

some old links, the original responses were as expected, bad and none lol. just some random tracks when i happened to have a camera - schutshund people be ill.

how it starts;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAjDxrFOXas&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg&index=6&feature=plcphttp://www.youtube.com/user/TheSBcase?feature=watch

how it goes;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvBRqiW4UR0&feature=relmfu


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I hereby nominate you to accept all in country challenges on my behalf. Thank you.
> 
> So you beat your dogs if they lift their nose out of a single foot step?
> 
> If it aint schutshund it 'aint' count........lol, just ask christopher.


was that directed at me???

Peter its ok to say you dont understand](*,)

You have your opinion thats fine others have theres thats fine too.The remark about beating a dog that lifts its nose is ridiculous dude.each to there own


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

it was to Terry - keep up.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

What the hell was that a lucky find?? Was that your attempt at tracking Peter???


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> it was to Terry - keep up.


sorry was struggling


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Susan, I guess I don't get the reason for forcing a dog to do something when he has TONS of desire to do it . I suspect you folks are not content for the dog to track in his own natural way. Also I suspect the sport folks are much more attached to their dog both financially and emotionally. This makes it harder to get rid of Muffy, instead it is easier to create a game that Muffy can play well.

Anyway that's ok, different strokes for different folks.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

brad robert said:


> What the hell was that a lucky find?? Was that your attempt at tracking Peter???


luck indeed, yes an attempt, a successful one no less. i know the track lay out and conditions for schIII, i'm happy enough.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Terry Holstine said:


> Susan,* I guess I don't get the reason for forcing a dog to do something when he has TONS of desire to do it .*.........


 
lol


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terry Holstine said:


> Susan, I guess I don't get the reason for forcing a dog to do something when he has TONS of desire to do it . I suspect you folks are not content for the dog to track in his own natural way. Also I suspect the sport folks are much more attached to their dog both financially and emotionally. This makes it harder to get rid of Muffy, instead it is easier to create a game that Muffy can play well.
> 
> Anyway that's ok, different strokes for different folks.


Terry are you familiar with what forced tracking method is? Do you understand creating a safe zone at the article? With force training you need a dog with a lot of drive who is also very resilient. It's about never giving up on a track even in the worst conditions, no casting about, no circling, no backtracking, not if you want a top scoring dog at the National and International level.

As far as "Muffy"...WTF are you talking about? What does this have to do with force training?

Peter stop trying to stir the shit. You obviously don't have a clue what force method is if you think it's about beating a dog at all let alone for lifting his head.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

sorry double post


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terry Holstine said:


> Susan, I guess I don't get the reason for forcing a dog to do something when he has TONS of desire to do it . I suspect you folks are not content for the dog to track in his own natural way. Also I suspect the sport folks are much more attached to their dog both financially and emotionally. This makes it harder to get rid of Muffy, instead it is easier to create a game that Muffy can play well.
> 
> Anyway that's ok, different strokes for different folks.


Yeah SchH tracking is far different from real world tracking, it is actually mostly getting the dog to do what DOES NOT COME NATURALLY to him, while tracking, and adhere to strict form, speed and performance. Of course it is all about points, it is a sport.

I think everyone is really mis-interpreting what the methods are, and why they are used..they are not used by everyone, and they are not used on dogs that dont want to track, they are used to get a dog to track in SchH style tracking like a machine and be near perfect.

I have dug up this video, this is an example of what the ideal in SchH style tracking looks like, and yes this dog had pressure applied in his tracking. In case anyone is actually interested in watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV7retd4WQU&feature=related


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Susan, I reakon there ain't much use in us discussing this any further. I've hunted safe zones a time or two while tracking and the only article I'm interested in is the bad guy. We are from different worlds. In my world force is used to overcome resistance. I guess I thought it was the same in yours.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

I am kinda still hopeing someone helps resolving the misunderstandings that obviously are cruising arround. 
Force, motivation, stress all veeery much open to suggestion words...
I hear force tracking is great, for a dog with lots of drive but is resilliant,which is open to suggestion ,too, what do you call resillient...
I could instigate now and say: ok, you obviously use this method on a so called high drive/ resillient dog that is mentally able to endure such methods... because a soft dog cannot handle the upuse....

But honestly I don't want to pick a fight, but maybe one can clarify a bit more?!

There is indeed a difference in Schutzhund tracking and a "real life" tracking dog- which i still don't like this expression either...
Schutzhund in it's original form was a sutability test, the track there, was a track to mainly test the dogs ability to be suitable to track and the ability to concentrate on a single task for an extended period of time.

But the tracking in this form is still a great tool to have in your pocket to give a dog (in beginning phases) when you want to go into trailing and even air scenting... One more tool in the box.

Quite a few years back, I got my first GSD and got introduced into tracking, Not Schutzhund, but FH- the same test that Joby posted for us in the link to the video. 
One thing that I got drilled into me , one thing that i never forgot, was : "You cannot force a dog to track!!!" 
and this was not coming from a person that had mediocre scores. them two people I learned from ran consistently 98-100 points in an FH, multiple levels.

I have a hard time wrapping my head arround this forced tracking, and probably because I just know what I saw. I cannot see any use in a person at the end of the line and a second one on the collar of the dog ramming it's nose into each footstep, the dog then of course got frazelled, deemed rezillient and for punishment of not tracking thrown into the crate in the vehicle...
This is one of the things i have seen, suggested by a big name trainer as a method of forced tracking.
So pelase, maybe one can give a good example ,of good (?) forced tracking so it is a bit more easier to understand?!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> they are easy to find, just punch "affects of stress on learning" in your search engine....


I'm familiar with a lot of studies about stress and behavior. And you can't find one peer reviewed study that shows that dogs can't learn in a stressful situation. 



> And you answered the question yourself when you agreed that dogs cannot learn in some situations (handler screaming and pissing)..


No. Go back and read what I wrote. I said the dog can't learn because the training is bad. Remember, I said the dog can't learn from a clicker with that handler because the handler can't train. There are many handlers that can train dog extremely well at that same stress level.



> I am still trying to figure out as in to "what" this motivator is... you are talking about ?!?
> You can motivate a dog by encouraging him with uplifting gestures and words, or you can (Iexagurate kick him in the a** and make him get up ...


We are talking about using stress as a motivator. The motivator need can vary because each situation, dog and handler are different. In some dog /handler relationships it might be a boot up the backside or e-collar stim at a high level. In another relationship it might be the handler moving up the line closer to the dog or a light verbal correction. I purposely not giving direct examples because each situation, dog and handler are different. 




> Is it: let's go we can figure this out ? or is it: Let's go get your lazy behind to work?


It might be either or both. It's situational and depends because each situation, dog and handler are different.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

@ Christopher... : you might want to read my post again,too...

I was not talking about a stressful situation... and if you know aboutn the effects of stress on learning you should know about the fact that stress can block learning

And i guess I do not agree with a boot up their behind for not tracking good enough?!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> I hear force tracking is great, for a dog with lots of drive but is resilliant,which is open to suggestion ,too, what do you call resillient...
> I could instigate now and say: ok, you obviously use this method on a so called high drive/ resillient dog that is mentally able to endure such methods... because a soft dog cannot handle the upuse....


Did you mean "abuse"? It's not abuse in my book. 

Soft dogs are inferior. Soft dogs crumble in the face of pressure, certainly not the kind of dogs that should be bred. 

Hard dogs are resilient. This means they handle pressure well because they recover from pressure very quickly. This is the kind of dog that should be bred.

The video linked by Joby is of the Schutzhund FH Championship, Pedro got either a 98 or a 99 I can't remember, and he was trained with pressure.

Look it's simple, if you don't want to train the method then don't, that's completely your prerogative. 

To say that a force trained dog is one who doesn't like to track or to say a forced train dog doesn't track is absurd, and only goes to a lack of understanding of the method. It's like dumbells. If you want to consistently place at the top at major competitions, chances are you will need to train forced retrieves. In order to successfully train forced retrieves you need someone who really knows what they are doing and you need a good dog, hard enough to handle the pressure.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Force, motivation, stress all veeery much open to suggestion words...


I'm using them as they are in the dictionary.




> I hear force tracking is great, for a dog with lots of drive but is resilliant,which is open to suggestion ,too, what do you call resillient...


Resilience is always nice to have because dogs recover from the mistakes we make as handlers. But a dog does not need to be particularly resilient for forced tracking. But that dog does need a handler with finesse. 



> I could instigate now and say: ok, you obviously use this method on a so called high drive/ resillient dog that is mentally able to endure such methods... because a soft dog cannot handle the upuse....


 See above. 

No dog can handle abuse and score well. 




> One thing that I got drilled into me , one thing that i never forgot, was : "You cannot force a dog to track!!!"


That's one big heap of pure uncut trite bullshit. 



> I have a hard time wrapping my head arround this forced tracking, and probably because I just know what I saw. I cannot see any use in a person at the end of the line and a second one on the collar of the dog ramming it's nose into each footstep, the dog then of course got frazelled, deemed rezillient and for punishment of not tracking thrown into the crate in the vehicle...
> This is one of the things i have seen, suggested by a big name trainer as a method of forced tracking.
> So pelase, maybe one can give a good example ,of good (?) forced tracking so it is a bit more easier to understand?!


You can't possibly be this dim. You saw one asshole do some bad training while calling it "force tracking" and you believe that that was the alpha and omega of compulsion on the track? 

I have seen people do all sorts of inexcusably abusive things in dogsport. But just because I saw a guy at a KNPV club put a sharpened pinch around a dog's flanks to teach the call off dosen't mean that that is how everyone in Holland does it. 

If you want to see a good example of compulsion being used on the track all you need to do is look at the podium of any IPO championship.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Force tracking is all about scoring points. Nothing more nothing less. I still wont do it but then I think FST sport tracking is like watching water evaporate compared to the real thing.

To quote David Frost 
"Real world tracking is the most fun you can have and still keep your pants on!"


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> And i guess I do not agree with a boot up their behind for not tracking good enough?!


You still don't get it!!!! It's not about using compulsion because the dog is not tracking "good enough"!!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> I am kinda still hopeing someone helps resolving the misunderstandings that obviously are cruising arround.
> Force, motivation, stress all veeery much open to suggestion words...
> I hear force tracking is great, for a dog with lots of drive but is resilliant,which is open to suggestion ,too, what do you call resillient...
> I could instigate now and say: ok, you obviously use this method on a so called high drive/ resillient dog that is mentally able to endure such methods... because a soft dog cannot handle the* upuse*....
> ...


It is great that you were told you cannot force a dog to track.. That makes sense to me....the guy in that video, that uses some methods of force while tracking, says the exact same thing...

there are many methods of using "force" in various things, you obviously witnessed some things that you saw as abusive, and are kinda all over the place with your comments about force methods. Your already using the words abuse, and stating that a dog was "deemed" resilient, corrected, and tossed in a crate for not tracking, if that was the case that was not a good example of using pressure in the training. And by making this comment you make a judgement about "deeming a dog resilient", bu including it your bad example...what I would like to know is did those people actually deem the dog resilient verbally to you? if not, then why did you include that in your example.

there are other threads on here about the use of "force" in various training areas... including tracking, the search function is a great tool there are references to it on other websites as well, google is a great tool.

There is also plenty of info on other techniques, like the retreive table, forced retrieving, and forced hold..probably others...

There is really no reason to try to resolve the misunderstandings, on a discussion forum, some of the methods should not be used by certain people at all, and should be taught by people that do them very very well. You want to learn about "force" methods, do find more people that use them, and watch, or train with them. If you dont want to learn about them, then go to training, where those methods are not used. Simple.

The people that use the methods will use them, and the people that do not use them, or make ignorant statements about them, will continue to do so. So what is to resolve?

I do not train forced tracking. But I do have a high drive resilient dog, and I do use NON ABUSIVE methods for certain things that could most likely mess up a softer, less resilient dog. I have seen forced retrieve and forced tacking, but not enough to really talk about it much more than I have, certainly not enough to give in depth explanations on it, and nothing I saw I would consider abusive.

Everything is subjective to the handlers, trainers and dogs.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> You still don't get it!!!! It's not about using compulsion because the dog is not tracking "good enough"!!!


?????, so its about........


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Force tracking is all about scoring points.


Uhhhhhh yeah....sports have points. :lol:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ?????, so its about........



Yeah I guess what I should of said is that it is *not just* for dogs not tracking good enough. Sometimes it's with dogs not tracking at all.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

@ chris:
So why on earth is it then that you use forced tracking to consitently get high scores if it is not the reason that the dog does not "track good enough" to achieve this without?!?!

But honestly i think we are not beeing able to get on the same page.... you try to twist words and take quotes out of context. I tried get one example that really helps one undertsand, but there is not more information in your posts....
Instead of supersizing words, you could have just explain what you hint arroud but don't want to spell out- even in a one case scenario... or instead of smart comments like using - i use words like in the dictonary... well i hate to brake this to you, ebven in the dictonary words often have multiple meanings....
here just an example:
*stress*

   /strɛs/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled[stres] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA 
noun 1. importance attached to a thing: to lay stress upon good manners. Synonyms: significance, meaning, emphasis, consequence; weight, value, worth. 

2. Phonetics . emphasis in the form of prominent relative loudness of a syllable or a word as a result of special effort in utterance. 

3. Prosody . accent or emphasis on syllables in a metrical pattern; beat. 

4. emphasis in melody, rhythm, etc.; beat. 

5. the physical pressure, pull, or other force exerted on one thing by another; strain. 



from dictionary.com


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> It is great that you were told you cannot force a dog to track.. That makes sense to me....the guy in that video, that uses some methods of force while tracking, says the exact same thing...


OMG Joby, don't tell me your gonna snort that bullshit too? You can't *teach* a dog to track with compulsion. But you sure as hell can use compulsion to *force* them to track.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> > It is great that you were told you cannot force a dog to track.. That makes sense to me....the guy in that video, that uses some methods of force while tracking, says the exact same thing...
> 
> 
> Thank you...
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> OMG Joby, don't tell me your gonna snort that bullshit too? You can't *teach* a dog to track with compulsion. But you sure as hell can use compulsion to *force* them to track.


Just taking a quote from a couple people that attended a Wallace Payne seminar, I think he said it...

he also said you cant push a rope, or so I heard.

Of course you can use compulsion to force a dog to track (correctly and consistently) . Like you said, almost all of the top trainers do it.

I might not be the smartest guy on the planet, but I am not retarded...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> @ chris:
> So why on earth is it then that you use forced tracking to consitently get high scores if it is not the reason that the dog does not "track good enough" to achieve this without?!?!


My name is not Chris and I don't "force" track my dog. 


> well i hate to brake this to you, ebven in the dictonary words often have multiple meanings....
> here just an example:
> *stress*
> 
> ...


Ok let me break something to you. If you don't have the intelligence and reasoning to figure out what what I mean by looking at that definition then we should end this now. But you think that people kick the dog to a beat or yell at it with emphasis on certain syllables. Right? :razz: This really shows that you are completely disingenuous. Game over.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Is it in the same league as table training???? 

From what i can piece together both techniques were invented so europeans could sell dogs fast to dumb americans with too much cash and too little ability.......historically.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

So Joby did they ever get back to you about the hoops?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Joby Becker said:
> 
> 
> > Same here, just that i saw ubusive stuff associated with it... wanted to maybe get a different angle on what is called forced tracking....
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> So Joby did they ever get back to you about the hoops?


Nope..was gonna call them and ask them on the phone LOL...maybe I will tomorrow...as of a couple minutes ago, there were no youtube or email responses from them..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Is it in the same league as table training????
> 
> From what i can piece together both techniques were invented so europeans could sell dogs fast to dumb americans with too much cash and too little ability.......historically.


Peter, go drink a beer or something LOL...some great trainers use tables all the time as well.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I said historically, how it started.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Peter, go drink a beer or something LOL...some great trainers use tables all the time as well.


Something? Peter must be hitting the unicorn milk.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

screw it, this is MY thread, and it has taken some wild turns..

I just perused your website Kat...

can you clear a few things up for me..so I know exactly where you are coming from? can you explain these excerpts, they are unclear to me. Might shed some light on some of the things you have typed....

*"How this individual interacts with its surroundings. 
You need to learn about the personality, the preferences and fears. Preferences can be used as motivators, 
but preferences can also mean the preferred ways of learning."*

*"Imagine how you could change from the common perception that an animal has to work for you, to the 
conclusion that an animal can work with you instead!"*

*"The Personalized way of Learning is not about a specific method, or a specific order of events that have to 
happen. This way is about recognition of the individual preferences and skills necessary to successfully teach a 
dog or horse to work with you. It is not about a special method or tool that has to be used, it is about learning 
how your animal learns, how to use your strength to form the relationship and interaction necessary to excel in 
the training. It is about utilizing perception – the inter play of the senses- being able to acknowledge ones 
personal experiences and personal emotions. Then you are able to apply the appropriate tools and techniques 
that suit you and your animal best. These techniques are based on motor therapy, pedagogic knowledge as 
well as psychological and species specific processes. Utilizing your strengths to excel in the bond with your 
animal and therefor being able to achieve a better relationship and effective communication.
This is what the personalized way of Learning is all about. The individual ways of you and your animal."*

*"Creating well trained animals through motivational 
training. We believe in a non-violent teaching 
method to bring out the best in all animals."*

so working dog owners should think that their dogs "can" work with them?

Are you actually saying it is wrong that someone should think that their dog has to work for them? That is what working dogs are all about, working for their handlers....


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> screw it, this is MY thread, and it has taken some wild turns..
> 
> 
> so working dog owners should think that their dogs "can" work with them?
> ...


Is it?? 

Good question, of course my dogs work for me also, sometimes way above a level i would like to see... ,they do what i ask them to do,( occationally they suck up pain, when I don't catch it early enough- this is scaring me, but i know this is what they also), this relationship we have makes them want to do things with us ... 
In this case though -and thank for pointing this out, maybe i should spell it out better- is about the dog has to function, an object that has to function. The dog that has a romote control can be put into the storeage area and is pulled out when wanted or needed. The same thing the new rules are looking for, that the dog is viewed as a training partner. A happy working dog.. not a thing that has to work for you, whenever needed... by a push of a button.
Is this a bit clearer? sometimes it is still a bit difficult to say what i really want to say, english is still my second language, words don't come as easy and obviously as "correct" as they should.... So i appreaciate the question.

See Joby, the internet is full of nuggets and pieces. I usually enjoy snooping arround in this forum, and try to get information or ask questions. Because there are people with different opinions and this gives you usally a good viewpoint. I rather do this then randomly finding videos ,information in the www, since you can find support for all sorts of different theories etc...
The training methods observing part...well Would love too, and do , just don't have the opportunity very often, but try to every chance I get, but the so called forced tracking that I saw was according to others BS, but how without explaining/seeing can one know what a good forced track is?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Is it??
> 
> Good question, of course my dogs work for me also, sometimes way above a level i would like to see... ,they do what i ask them to do,( occationally they suck up pain, when I don't catch it early enough- this is scaring me, but i know this is what they also), this relationship we have makes them want to do things with us ...
> In this case though -and thank for pointing this out, maybe i should spell it out better- is about the dog has to function, an object that has to function. The dog that has a romote control can be put into the storeage area and is pulled out when wanted or needed. The same thing the new rules are looking for, that the dog is viewed as a training partner. A happy working dog.. not a thing that has to work for you, whenever needed... by a push of a button.
> ...


I think almost everyone is against abusive and "violent" methods.

so you do not like the Ecollar?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Platz on article...nice read...

http://www.schutzhund-training.net/tracking/force-tracking.html


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I think almost everyone is against abusive and "violent" methods.
> 
> so you do not like the Ecollar?


with" push of a button" , I did not mean to hint arround an ecollar, it was refering to an" on" and "off" switch that some people think is on a dog- like a machine....

the e collar is in my toolbox.... not my favorite, but I know it can have it's place in training....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> with" push of a button" , I did not mean to hint arround an ecollar, it was refering to an" on" and "off" switch that some people think is on a dog- like a machine....
> 
> the e collar is in my toolbox.... not my favorite, but I know it can have it's place in training....


ah gotcha..

I like to think of it in those terms personally. I want my dog to be ON when I want it to, and OFF when I want it to. 

And I also expect that my dog will respond, when I hit the ON button, because I say it is time to "work". Of course dogs have off days just like people do, for my dog, the OFF switch is really more important to me though, the switch turns ON a lot by itself, not always at the right times either 

I like dogs that work like a machine, and work when they are commanded to, or allowed to.

Of course, like a machine, a dog needs to have proper maintenance and needs to be broken into the work correctly.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> ah gotcha..
> 
> I like to think of it in those terms personally. I want my dog to be ON when I want it to, and OFF when I want it to.
> 
> ...


 I agree.... LOL
See same words different meaning, i like my dogs to be OFF, too and ready to work when I need them... But I think we are talking about the same thing, it is not* just* a machine....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> I agree.... LOL
> See same words different meaning, i like my dogs to be OFF, too and ready to work when I need them... But I think we are talking about the same thing, it is not* just* a machine....


No not just a machine, but also one must keep in mind that some people own working animals to do just that, to "work". 

They do not look at the animals like they are pets persay. 

Many people that have multiple dogs, have a favorite or two (the special ones), that they may like to hang out with more than the others, and have more of a personal attachment to. And the others are there to work, they come out of the kennels to train and to work, not to hang out with all the time and be more like a pet dog is. 

Some people have dogs so they can hang out with them all the time, and be more like a family pet, some dont..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Finally got an email from the people that posted this vid on youtube. thought I should put it here as well... I did not ask the people if they used force or not, because this thread took that turn, after I initially emailed them.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tiKWsiwygI&feature=plcp

Although she did not really explain what the hoops were for, she did say that their tracking methods were unique, and proven, and that they will be doing tracking seminars, to teach their methods, which is fair enough I suppose, at least not unexpected. 

The dog in the video, was sold to compete in SCH, has not given them feedback yet, but was said to track very good.

The other dog, Saint was sold to a Police department, and tracks very well, I was told.

The guy in the video, is the handler/trainer for Boker, a dog bred by Tim Stacy. His name is Fabian Robinson, he has acquired his IPO I and IPO II titles with Boker, and got 100 points in the tracking phase for each title.

here is video of first 6 weeks of Boker being trained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghphadfkw_w

I was also told that 2 of their tracking students recently got scores of 98 and 100 points in the tracking phase as well. 

So although I did not get an explanation of the video with the hoops, I am guessing that these people know what they are doing, and have had success with their methods...she said the methods are very straightforward and easy to follow.

The next seminar is to be scheduled in the VAGINA/Maryland area (her spelling, not mine ) in the next month or two and to check the website for updated info.

http://web.me.com/k9teamtraining/K9TT_/Home.html

I am not sure if the hoops will be included in the seminar or not though...


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

reading this post only now, and just saw the video , but hard to imagine where this will make the connection for the dog to damaged surface or human scent , the dog is obviously on visual a great part of the video ,first the hoops, and even I can see the big pieces of meat(or else) from behind my computer screen, and the smell of these big chunks must be pretty obvious

cant imagine the whole surface in the hoops is damaged and put human smell on , so this system is eyes first, and that is something I would always avoid ,also off leash is easyer than many think , but hey, if they show results I will take it back:lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

herman williams said:


> reading this post only now, and just saw the video , but hard to imagine where this will make the connection for the dog to damaged surface or human scent , the dog is obviously on visual a great part of the video ,first the hoops, and even I can see the big pieces of meat(or else) from behind my computer screen, and the smell of these big chunks must be pretty obvious
> 
> cant imagine the whole surface in the hoops is damaged and put human smell on , so this system is eyes first, and that is something I would always avoid ,also off leash is easyer than many think , but hey, if they show results I will take it back:lol:


I doubt the hoop video represents much of the methods used..that may be something they do for puppies, that may be something they did only that one time, for video purposes, I do not know, as that part of my question was not addressed, I sent a fairly long email, was happy to get a reply...

I did just watch the boker video all the way through, the dog is being tracked using the ecollar. 

I would say that (2) 100 pt tracks for the IPO1 and IPO2 *is* showing results, personally.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

joby , if you are a believer thats fine by me ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

herman williams said:


> joby , if you are a believer thats fine by me ;-)


I need help building a shrine.... it is not easy taping these hoops together by myself....


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

I kind of thought you were involved in the making of these tapes:wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I cannot see any benefit of "hoop" tracking. The pup was running from one hoop to another scooping up food. If someone could explain the reason for the hoops, it would be good.

I planted a stick at the start of a 10 yard track, no food on it until the end. Took my pup, aged 5 months on to the field, watched him sniff at the track and slowly work it out until the end where there was a little heap of food.

Had he ignored the track, I would have carried on walking with him and tried at a later date but, his reaction showed me that he was very interested in sniffing out natural tracks. Here I can see thel aptitude of the pup.

There have been many methods over the years (very often produced at seminars, etc.) but a pup who shows he is interested in a short non-food track with reward only at the end shows me that all these new-fangled methods, as someone said, have to be "done away with at some time".

OK, results were shown at IPO 1. What happens later when the terrain is more difficult. High up in the mountains, tracks laid on dewy ground where the sun shines on it before the dog can work it out, dry, barren land, etc. etc.?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I still have no clue why the hoops were used, or why the food was so big. 
The dog in that video was sold, and no further info is currently available.

My point was that the same guy has recently titled a dog to IPO2, and got 100 point (perfect) tracks at the IPO 1 and IPO 2 level.

And I do remember Tim Stacy being optimistic that the dog would be able to compete at a high level, with the handler he has.

The guy took second place at the regional championships in 2010, SCH III high HOT in trial. got a 97 in tracking there.

If I was more interested in IPO, and his methods specifically, and had the spare money and time, I would go check out the seminar. I do not really care that much about any of it really.

did you watch any of the other videos on the youtube channel Gillian ?, he does have a 3 part series of one dog doing a 30 minute long track through changes of terrain.

I am not sure what your post is actually saying besides you don't see a need for the hoops, if that is it, then yes I think that is the consesus, hoops are not necessary....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Force tracking is all about scoring points. Nothing more nothing less. I still wont do it but then I think FST sport tracking is like watching water evaporate compared to the real thing.
> 
> To quote David Frost
> "Real world tracking is the most fun you can have and still keep your pants on!"


I'm not sure what you mean Bob.

A dog that has been *trained to track* can work out an IPO track, FCI tracks but also can be used to track down criminals. The chap laying the track at a trial is similar to the criminal laying the track - maybe less easy - the criminal might have been running, leaving heavier treads and the dog might be set on the track much earlier than in sport tracks.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the real thing". Is this not something in the mind of the handler. The dog has no idea he is tracking for a "silver cup" or chasing a criminal, surely.

In some trials the track is three hours' old, with many corners and articles.

I see it so. The dog is "taught" to track and whether its career ends in sport or police work or whatever, success is catching the criminal or gaining 100 points at a trial. I say "taught" to track. What I mean is the dog is given sufficient tracks to work out, increasing in length (corresponding to the dog's condition) and, in case of sport must be trimmed to follow the track slowly and with deep nose.

But a dog's natural tracking instincts and desire to track are not necessarily combined with FST tracking and how it is evaluated whether we use it for this or not.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm not sure what you mean Bob.
> 
> A dog that has been *trained to track* can work out an IPO track, FCI tracks but also can be used to track down criminals. The chap laying the track at a trial is similar to the criminal laying the track - maybe less easy - the criminal might have been running, leaving heavier treads and the dog might be set on the track much earlier than in sport tracks.
> 
> ...


I think he means the very slow methodically sniffing of every footstep in sch tracking, that is not very realistic tracking, no one I know wants their K9 to track like that. 

Also I think Bob is saying that he thinks watching IPO style tracking is very boring, which many people do, and that real world tracking/trailing is much more entertaining to watch

I do little tracking, and am certainly not a police officer, but I am pretty sure my dog would track down and bite a "badguy" (in training obviously) in the woods that is about 1/4 mile away, in less time, than an IPO III dog would take to get to his first article in a difficult track.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think he means the very slow methodically sniffing of every footstep in sch tracking, that is not very realistic tracking, no one I know wants their K9 to track like that.
> 
> Also I think Bob is saying that he thinks watching IPO style tracking is very boring, which many people do, and that real world tracking/trailing is much more entertaining to watch
> 
> I do little tracking, and am certainly not a police officer, but I am pretty sure my dog would track down and bite a "badguy" (in training obviously) in the woods that is about 1/4 mile away, in less time, than an IPO III dog would take to get to his first article in a difficult track.




Ahhhh, the old "but I am pretty sure my dog would ......" explanation.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think he means the very slow methodically sniffing of every footstep in sch tracking, that is not very realistic tracking, no one I know wants their K9 to track like that.
> 
> Also I think Bob is saying that he thinks watching IPO style tracking is very boring, which many people do, and that real world tracking/trailing is much more entertaining to watch
> 
> I do little tracking, and am certainly not a police officer, but I am pretty sure my dog would track down and bite a "badguy" (in training obviously) in the woods that is about 1/4 mile away, in less time, than an IPO III dog would take to get to his first article in a difficult track.


Tracking and scenting out persons in the woods are two very different areas of training.

Have you ever watched "real world tracking?"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> Ahhhh, the old "but I am pretty sure my dog would ......" explanation.


LOL.. I am guilty of that, dumb thing to say, you are right and I'll retract that statement right now. As I dont even know what the average time is.

I will do some tracking in the next couple weeks and check it out timewise.

either way, much more exciting and entertaining to watch for me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Tracking and scenting out persons in the woods are two very different areas of training.
> 
> Have you ever watched "real world tracking?"


yes. Dogs were trailing mostly but some airscented as well, most were onleash with handlers, a few offleash. fast paced, exciting.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

FST is not natural for a dog but thats whats so fun about it your teaching a dog to do something he wouldnt normally do like that.People thats what it is its dog training how to make your dog do something he normally wouldnt and holy crap i love it.

Just imagine having to train a dog to do something he wouldnt normally do, the freaking horror of it!! :-\"


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

brad robert said:


> FST is not natural for a dog but thats whats so fun about it your teaching a dog to do something he wouldnt normally do like that.People thats what it is its dog training how to make your dog do something he normally wouldnt and holy crap i love it.
> 
> Just imagine having to train a dog to do something he wouldnt normally do, the freaking horror of it!! :-\"


 
sumthin even more funner is taking something a dog enjoys doing and making the dog better at it through your interactions - thats when you see a mutual bond emerge, not a dog doing something to escape a butt kicking, jmo.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> sumthin even more funner is taking something a dog enjoys doing and making the dog better at it through your interactions - thats when you see a mutual bond emerge, not a dog doing something to escape a butt kicking, jmo.


so pete, if you put a leash on your dog, and put some food on the ground for him, and he tracks...is he doing it to escape a butt kicking?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With a good tracking dog I think the tracking in itself can be the reward.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> With a good tracking dog I think the tracking in itself can be the reward.


I do not do much tracking at all, today I told the dog to start tracking, and she did, dragged me all over the neighborhood, not sure what she was tracking though, probably another dog or something  A shitty thing to do I know, but hell, it was cute, she was on it, whatever it was.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The only "real" application I did with a sport trained tracking dog was with my first Border terrier. On of the other hunter's dogs got skunked really bad. I dug down to it and it was convulsing when I pulled it out. I laid it on the ground and it shook a couple more times and then ran like hell. 
I had my Border track it and we knew he was on the track because we saw 3-4 time where the dog stopped to puke. Lost it crossing a creek though. Put out the word to farmers in the area and one called the next day. The dog was curled up in some guys barn. 
Now Thunder has found my car keys lost in a field but he air scented those. He was trained in article search in SAR.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> so pete, if you put a leash on your dog, and put some food on the ground for him, and he tracks...is he doing it to escape a butt kicking?


Only if i fry him, collar corrrect or use one of them belly harness thingies to whomp on him every time it stops ploughing a furrow with its nose while tracking....then yes, not obvious??

You seen my dogs on a random track, i never once laid a food drop, they dont even wear collars, they will find the shit at the end of the track quicker than you can type foooozteptrickin.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Only if i fry him, collar corrrect or use one of them belly harness thingies to whomp on him every time it stops ploughing a furrow with its nose while tracking....then yes, not obvious??
> 
> You seen my dogs on a random track, i never once laid a food drop, they dont even wear collars, they will find the shit at the end of the track quicker than you can type foooozteptrickin.


I saw the vids pete, I liked it, but would have liked to see them do it individually, on different tracks as well, just to watch it.

I do stuff like you did in that video, but I use a leash sometimes and slow the dog down some, same thing though.

dogs noses are pretty amazing. one time I was starting to mess with tracking a little with this dog, I was at a friends house, she laid a track for her own dog, all over her property, about 5 acres. the dog followed the track, but was not directly on the track often off of it by as much as 15 feet (which was fine for her purposes) and found the "toy" just like your dogs did.

so then she wanted me to lay a track for my dog, and I said why not just try the same track she laid..to see what happened..my dog was off the exact track (as expected), but she did track the other dogs track exactly. 

she likes it, I am sure it is a common thing, but when I say the tracking word, she actually will start sucking air in with her nose loudly sometimes, even if she is sitting there and has not starting to track yet...

I play lots of "find" and hunt games too, also if I say "find" she sometimes starts sucking in through her nose loudly, even while I am holding the collar still and havent released her...she loves using her nose for stuff...gets real geeked about it. too bad I could not get into formal tracking, the dog loved it, me, not so much.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I like the looseness of the word find, my dogs are prolly never ON the track, i wouldnt know other than just to the left of that mound etc. They cut big corners and circle back, thats fine to. All my articles are now above ground level, took my pup a while to stop circling where the track dissapeared and look up. Actually took a kill to get that sorted.

I would not pass a comp tho, i just like cruising around ****ing shit up and annoying people.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I agree with Joby on your dogs Peter thats all fun and stuff but individual tracks would be nice to see and i would like to see them find multiple articles on the same track because even a good trailing dog should do that.I train with a group who track like that but on lead with alot more control and there dogs are superb at finding articles on track so thats not something solely a fst thing.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> sumthin even more funner is taking something a dog enjoys doing and making the dog better at it through your interactions - thats when you see a mutual bond emerge, not a dog doing something to escape a butt kicking, jmo.


That sounds like my dog and me and i never have or would put force on her i moulded what was there and she is becoming a nice strong FST dog.



Bob Scott said:


> With a good tracking dog I think the tracking in itself can be the reward.


A sweet thing to see!!!


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

In man trailing, when the dog is trailing, he is obviously on human scent. Say the dog is 20 feet down wind of the actual track, what other odor is there besides human scent? 
In foot step tracking, let's say an 8 hour track, with a good wind, full sun and short dry grass, what scent is the dog on?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

#1 Everything that gives off a scent in the area.
The old Pizza scenario comes to mind. Humans smell a pizza cooking. Dogs smell tomatoes, dough, each spice, cheese, meat, whatever is there. The dog can break it down to the individual scents. That's how drug dogs find drugs even though they are covered by all sorts of crap to throw the dog off.

#2 Hopefully enough of the scent left but the person the dog is tracking. That could be a tough one for anything but a very good dog. It's still going to smell everything that gives off a scent but the hot, dry, old will make it much harder.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

julie allen said:


> In man trailing, when the dog is trailing, he is obviously on human scent. Say the dog is 20 feet down wind of the actual track, what other odor is there besides human scent?
> In foot step tracking, let's say an 8 hour track, with a good wind, full sun and short dry grass, what scent is the dog on?


In foot step tracking just your presence can still leave a trail depending on the terrian, surface and conditions. As soon as you step on the grass, you crush it, releasing odors. K9's can detect that and use it to continue following a scent. There have been experiments done on this. Once past a difficult area, and into say, maybe a cooler or shadier area, the K9 might get actual scent again.

I think this is an excellent article on the whole scenting topic. An oldie but goodie. The officer refers to the trail as just being "different" then the ambient environment. This can be difficult with lots of containmation since the "different" that you want to track may no longer be the freshest "different" and the K9 can be easily confused then. This is something that takes a lot of practice and experience by the K9 and handler.

http://www.uspcak9.com/training/scent.pdf

So in your example, a traling dog working down wind and off the exact track may be out of luck since the scent rafts have been burned off or totally dispersed to a level that is non-detectible. But the foot step tracker might be able to continue under certain conditions.

It's why for any given track or condition, not all dogs are created equal.

Craig


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

I think dogs trained in FST are much more likely to be reliant on disturbance than a dog that has been allowed to learn to track naturally. I don't think disturbance plays very much of a role with the pack dogs I use. I have set up many scenarios to test my beliefs.

One method I like to use to prove my point is to have find a black-top or hard packed dirt road with the wind blowing perpendicular to the roadway. I have the decoy walk down the middle of the road then allow the track to age a couple of hrs. The conditions need to be watched to insure there has not been a switch in wind direction while the track is aging. When the track is run it is obvious the dogs are working the scent that has drifted from the decoy onto the vegetation along the side of the road.

I also tracked an individual that had entered a long hole of water in a creek. The creek was about 60 ft wide and was running North to South, the wind was about 2-3 mph from the East. When the dogs came to the upper end of the hole of water they made a little lose then finally lined out going along the West bank. They tracked along the West bank to the lower end then turned South-West. They run the subject about a mile and treed him. After he was taken into custody he asked what the dogs did at the hole of water. I told him they tracked along the West bank. He then told me he had waded and swam the hole of water and stayed out in the middle from one end of it to the other. In this case it is a certainty they were working the subjects scent that was carried by the wind.

A lot of the tracks we run are in pastures containing cattle. Cattle are nosy creatures so when someone strange walks trough their territory they have a nasty habit of following along behind tromping through to track. Then when we come along tracking this individual they will usually run around us trying to fight the dogs. So just imagine how much disturbance 50 to 100 hard of cattle can stir up. All this commotion usually does make the track more difficult but we are usually able to deal with it.

I have also had the decoy walk across traps where grazing has left no vegetation except for a few scattered weeds. I would have the decoy to approach a few of these scattered weeds and walks within inches without making physical contact. The dogs are able to track across this hard packed earth several hrs later by using the scent that was retained on the weeds.

The older more experienced dogs have learned what kind of places tend to retain scent longer. Low shady places tend to hold scent well even if it is bare ground. Under some conditions uneven rocky out croppings will hold scent longer than flat even ground. You know you have a track dog when he will stop and visually look for scent traps. We have lost tracks on fields during bad conditions such as high winds, short vegetation, high temps etc. The really experienced dogs will eventually go to the edges of the fields and start checking types of terrain that have helped them in the past.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Sorry for the typos, Yuins will jest hafta git use toit.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I would say that a trailing dog is more efficient. Scent seems to cling much longer to different vegetation, moisture, etc rather than in the foot steps. Using crushed vegetation is good until you run out. 

Tracking on sand, I watch the dog pick scent pools in small depressions. Using flankers experienced with man trailing you can usually determine the track if the trailing dog gets to a point he isn't catching scent drifts. 

My two mals that track combine tracking, trailing and air scenting. Usually the strongest scent (if using human scent, not vegetation disturbances) is actually not on the track itself.

I have watched dogs fst using disturbance continue on a track that a group of horse back riders covered the same path then continued on another way, never miss a beat and follow the horses since that was the freshest track.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Terry Holstine said:


> He then told me he had waded and swam the hole of water and stayed out in the middle from one end of it to the other. In this case it is a certainty they were working the subjects scent that was carried by the wind.


Good info Terry! I've seen something like this with airscent dogs. They can get the scent at a sharp bend in the creek below the subject. The scent carries down just above the surface of the water and then runs into the bank of the curve and builds up there. The scent pool can be stronger there then where the subject actually is. The experienced dogs and handlers learn to work the scent upstream.

In your example, and other "attempts" at fooling a tracking dog, (a.l.a. mythbusters), I think the mistake of the decoys is wading and swiming. What if a decoy can swim under water a considerable distance? That way all scent is actually in the water and can't get airbourne. My son was a competitive swimmer, maybe I'll have to set something up to test that idea someday.  Swim underwater for 1.5 - 2 minutes, (about max), take a quick breath and swim underwater some more. Repeat. Difficult to do in most bodies of water.

Craig


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Craig Snyder said:


> Good info Terry! I've seen something like this with airscent dogs. They can get the scent at a sharp bend in the creek below the subject. The scent carries down just above the surface of the water and then runs into the bank of the curve and builds up there. The scent pool can be stronger there then were the subject actually is. The experienced dogs and handlers learn to work the scent upstream.
> 
> In your example, and other "attempts" at fooling a tracking dog, (a.l.a. mythbusters), I think the mistake of the decoys is wading and swiming. What if a decoy can swim under water a considerable distance? That way all scent is actually in the water and can't get airbourne. My son was a competitive swimmer, maybe I'll have to set something up to test that idea someday.  Swim underwater for 1.5 - 2 minutes, (about max), take a quick breath and swim underwater some more. Repeat. Difficult to do in most bodies of water.
> 
> Craig


Even if you stay under.water oils from your skin.and hair follicles rise to the surface, usually catching on banks and vegetation in small water ways, and creating pools or following currents in larger bodies. 

Water is just another surface, and even increases scent, if you train properly on it.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

julie allen said:


> Even if you stay under.water oils from your skin.and hair follicles rise to the surface, usually catching on banks and vegetation in small water ways, and creating pools or following currents in larger bodies.
> 
> Water is just another surface, and even increases scent, if you train properly on it.


Yeah.. I don't think it would be easy to do. You'd have to have exactly the right body of water. Smaell waterways wouldn't work. Larger lakes are too still and wouldn't carry the scent out and downstream far enough and fast enough. Larger rivers would probably have too many underwater obstructions to do this for any distance of the kind you would need. You still need to exit the water at some point.

Terry, I'd love to see a pack of trailing dogs work. I've never had that chance and I don't know of any teams or people doing that type of work in our area of PA. 

Craig


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

And to add to Terry's experiences, I worked a trail in a junkyard where there were old trailers and motorhomes lined up along the outer fence. I had my subject go from one to the other, never touching the ground. He was between 5-15 ft off the ground the entire time. It was only aged about an hour (he climbed into an old bus to wait). We were upwind. My hound never missed a beat.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Craig Snyder said:


> Yeah.. I don't think it would be easy to do. You'd have to have exactly the right body of water. Smaell waterways wouldn't work. Larger lakes are too still and wouldn't carry the scent out and downstream far enough and fast enough. Larger rivers would probably have too many underwater obstructions to do this for any distance of the kind you would need. You still need to exit the water at some point.
> 
> Terry, I'd love to see a pack of trailing dogs work. I've never had that chance and I don't know of any teams or people doing that type of work in our area of PA.
> 
> Craig


They had an episode of "MythBusters" where the "perp" ran over a large number of surfaces, even waded a wide river. The Bloodhound followed the "trail" through the water as straight in the right direction as if it was across grass. The perp didn't just go straight across the river either.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Skip Morgart said:


> They had an episode of "MythBusters" where the "perp" ran over a large number of surfaces, even waded a wide river. The Bloodhound followed the "trail" through the water as straight in the right direction as if it was across grass. The perp didn't just go straight across the river either.


I actually have that episode downloaded on my IPad. :smile:

Craig


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Craig, there should be folks in Pa who uses pack hounds to track ****, hogs, bear, etc. If you can get hooked up with some of those folks you can see how it works. There is not much difference in tracking animals and men. They all try to evade and usually all they get for their troubles is tired and caught providing the dogs and handlers are worth their salt.


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