# Breeding a working dog



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

In another thread, a poster asked about breeding two dogs. At some point in that post, the OP made the comment the dogs temperment had been checked out by a trainer that has been considered reputable for many years. There was no real talk about pedigree and ancestry. The health, hips etc were said to be solid. For the point of this post, let's assume the dog had been OFA'd and other health checks indicated the dog was healthy in all respects. Combine the health with a clean temperment bill, what makes it so wrong to breed these dogs strictly as working dogs. I've said before, as has many of my collegues, we're not all that concerned about pedigrees and ancestry. A dog's daddy being the best in the world does not guarentee his success. Understandably, it increases the odds, but there is no guarentee. Seeing as most of the staff PSD trainers I'm in contact with do not buy puppies. That allows us to test that particular dog prior to purchase.

my question; What makes it so wrong to breed dogs, strictly as working dogs, in this manner. 

I've stated in many past thread, I know nothing about breeding. I am, however, an end user of the product. The only thing important to me is the specific dog I'm purchasing.

DFrost


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

becaus you do not get any consistensy and becaus you know nothing about the parents, sibblings and so on you are just breeding in the dark.

if most of the siblings are crapp, parents are medioker at best an this dog is good it vill probobly not produce anyting good.

breedin is alabout beting the %, you want to be abel to forse what is coming out of your dogs and you want them to consistent produce to the level you want in your dogs. you will not do that if you breed like you deskribe.

but as you say you might get som worker, and that is true.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I understand what you are saying David. There is nothing wrong with it. We all started somewhere. Like everthing else in life, many will fail, some will continue on and learn from their mistakes. I started with two 50 lb show dogs and only one was what I liked. Let some people breed a couple of litters and suddenly they become the overseers of all dog breeders.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

nothing wrong with that, IF character and health are 100%. Otherwise there weren't any KNPV bloodlines, were there?
Ancestery still can be known Andreas, if documented like www.bloedlijnen.nl.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

If one could have the opportunity to see an older puppy and not have to make the decision to purchase an 8 week old puppy than I would love it! Because most sport breeders sell the puppies at 8 weeks it would be more comfort to a buyer to have a long history of dogs that could work in the pedigree.

Take a Doberman (I know, I know)... if I were to shell out 1500-2000 for an 8 week old prospect (and with 8 week old puppies there is NO guarantee of workability from any combo of any breed) I would be really nervous if the puppy came from two no account parents. Even IF the two dogs themselves were really wonderful. 

Now, if someone were to hold on to the puppies (and not screw them up) until they were 10 months or so... I would have no problem taking a look.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think that you hit on what makes a lot of people hesitate to breed their dog. A breeding program should have long term goals, and healthy dogs and what not, and all this is discussed to death. The problem is most people by the time they even consider breeding the dog, it is pretty late in life.

I am included in this. I have looked a lot of the Mals out there, and pretty much like spas boy better than them everytime. I bred, and will breed again to get a replacement. 

The beginning is the hardest. There was a thread that someone had stated that he could not breed his dog, even though he wanted to, because of mild HD. I told him to go ahead and do it anyway, but that really wasn't fair, as how would he get the lines to get another dog similar to his, BUT, I thought it might push him past the doubt and get him to try.

I know breeders that have been producing boring ass, high threshold dogs for many many years, and it really is time to get away from any kind of thought process that they "know what they are doing" any more than a lot of us.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> nothing wrong with that, IF character and health are 100%. [/URL].


Health and temperment are certainly the driving force. I agree. I can't see where it would be a problem. 


DFrost


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Here is my outlook on this subject. First pick a breed that you are passionate about and study it as much as you can, for many years. Own several of them to see what it is that you like, dont like about the breed. Then narrow down the bloodlines of the dogs that you like best.
For example: if you are a GSD breeder do you prefer the lines from the Czech dogs, the Belgium dogs, the East or West German dogs? etc, etc. When you find a type of dog that you like then you get the best examples of those dogs that you can find and you spend more time with them watching and working them and seeing their strengths and weaknesses. When the time comes to make the descision to breed the dog or not, you must ask yourself this...........HAVE I SEEN A BETTER EXAMPLE OF THIS BREED FROM THIS BLOODLINE? If you have seen a better example then why breed the one you have, why not just use the better example that you have seen, that is the way to truely better the lines.
Breeding a dog just because you own it is no way to really improve the breed.
I have imported many working dogs both titled and not titled for breeding and have sold them and decided not to breed them because when I was honest with myself they were not the best examples of the type of character that I like. I have owned several hundred very nice working females and have found about 20 that meet the standard that I would call breeding quality. I have owned even more excellent working males and have found even less that I would call qualified to improve the breed and worthy of breeding. 
Often times I will go 5000 thousand miles away to use a dog for breeding, even though I have some excellent breedig dogs in my own kennel. I am always trying to find dogs that have the type of character I like with the lines that I know produce well with the lines of the dog that I am about to breed. Sometimes I find the right dog in my kennel, sometimes I have to go all over the World to get the lines that match what I am trying to do with a particular breeding.
I am in no hurry to establish my own bloodlines per say, What I am most interested in is producing working dogs of the highest quality possible. Over the years I have kept back a few dogs that were from my breedings, but I did not keep them because they were mine, I kept them because they meet the standard that I have set for a potential breeding dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Take a Doberman (I know, I know)... if I were to shell out 1500-2000 for an 8 week old prospect (and with 8 week old puppies there is NO guarantee of workability from any combo of any breed) I would be really nervous if the puppy came from two no account parents. Even IF the two dogs themselves were really wonderful. 

I think that most people just are in to big a hurry as the "pup" they like might get sold, they might get puppy-itis, ect ect.

With the Dobermann, I would concentrate on what I saw in the pups. I would ask about the training, if any, and I would spend as much time with the parents as I could first. I would ask if the dogs got calmer as they grew older, or if they stayed pretty hyper, to see if I could get a read on if the pups thresholds would get higher as they got older, a problem with breeds.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Health and temperment are certainly the driving force. I agree.
> 
> DFrost


Aren't health and particularly temperament factors that a whole lot of people might consider themselves knowledgeable to assess when in fact, say, what they are seeing as great temperament is nothing more than liking their own dog? "Pre-kennel" blindness? 

Wouldn't it be good if folks planning to breed working dogs actually worked some dogs first?

Of course this is not directed at anyone here. I am thinking of someone I know who thinks his male should father some "great sports dogs" and this guy is in his first month of training with this great stud-to-be.

I know nothing about breeding. I guess my point is, does that guy? Because he likes his own dog and the dog is healthy? :lol:

That guy would read this and have no idea what Mike was talking about:_
"*Breeding a dog just because you own it is no way to really improve the breed*. ... you must ask yourself this...........HAVE I SEEN A BETTER EXAMPLE OF THIS BREED FROM THIS BLOODLINE? If you have seen a better example then why breed the one you have, why not just use the better example that you have seen, that is the way to truely better the lines."_


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Here is my outlook on this subject. First pick a breed that you are passionate about and study it as much as you can, for many years.

REALLY ? REALLY ?? How many people, including you did that ??

Hell, if people actually spent any time researching the people they are getting pups from, 80% of the breeders out there or MORE would be out of business.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Here is my outlook on this subject. First pick a breed that you are passionate about and study it as much as you can, for many years.
> 
> REALLY ? REALLY ?? How many people, including you did that ??
> ...


 Not sure how may have, but I suspect many have, did you not?? I can not imagine any breeder not understanding the breed of dog they have before they breed it.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

selena. yes true true, and i think the mixing of breeds in the knpv is working. but when the ansestery is unknown its har to produce anything good in the long run.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think one thing that's pushed for, is the belief that "titling dogs is knowledge for breeding dogs." I greatly disagree. Working dogs and observing them, absolutely, but papered accomplishments don't impart breeding wisdom. And that's just a portion of what a breeder should know. Too much emphasis on competition, takes from other areas that requires a breeder's attention.

I work my dogs, but simply don't care about achieving certification in anything, as much as I do just learning the actual skills and understanding the qualities that make a dog succeed or fail in each venue. I want to learn as much as possible about all the types of work my breed engages in. SAR will have to be an exception, I won't be able to partake in the actual job without certifying. But to me, SAR has more meaningful purpose than any sport, and I expect to find more personal satisfaction from it than merely having worked my dog.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

daryl
not tittels on papper, linage on papper ore known in the head of the breeder. you nead to know what your line produce, whats goog, whats bad and so on.

i think ther is a antihype against tittels.
many peopel start to "badmoth" titteld dogs and talking about its not just tittels and al that.
that is kind of a way of telling breeders you downt trust them.
a good breeder will not breed a bad dog with a tittel, and he will also DO breed a dog that do not have a tittel if he thinks the dog is good.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I think one thing that's pushed for, is the belief that "titling dogs is knowledge for breeding dogs." I greatly disagree. Working dogs and observing them, absolutely, but papered accomplishments don't impart breeding wisdom. And that's just a portion of what a breeder should know. Too much emphasis on competition, takes from other areas that requires a breeder's attention.
> 
> I work my dogs, but simply don't care about achieving certification in anything, as much as I do just learning the actual skills and understanding the qualities that make a dog succeed or fail in each venue. I want to learn as much as possible about all the types of work my breed engages in. SAR will have to be an exception, I won't be able to partake in the actual job without certifying. But to me, SAR has more meaningful purpose than any sport, and I expect to find more personal satisfaction from it than merely having worked my dog.


Amen Daryl


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> daryl
> not tittels on papper, linage on papper ore known in the head of the breeder. you nead to know what your line produce, whats goog, whats bad and so on.
> 
> i think ther is a antihype against tittels.
> ...


Here is what titles tell me that I can take to the bank. Most titles, hunting or protection would tell me that you have at least an average dog and a good trainer. At a national or world level comp, probably got a really good trainer with a really good dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Not sure how may have, but I suspect many have, did you not?? I can not imagine any breeder not understanding the breed of dog they have before they breed it.

What planet are you on again ?? Have you seen the shitters that are being produced ??

Quote: I think one thing that's pushed for, is the belief that "titling dogs is knowledge for breeding dogs." I greatly disagree.

I think you are just to lazy to title your dogs. I think that after you have titled dogs to the highest level be it Sch or ring, you get a different perspective. I don't always believe that a dog has to be titled to be bred, but until you have trained all the way to the 3, you don't know that dog as well as you think you do. I think that once you have your own line going, you have more room to say this or that about your dogs.

I am lucky, as I know Buko really well, and Mike Ellis and I have talked about his brothers a lot as well. We also have talked about what this dog and that dog have produced.

There is a lot that you learn when you start putting control on a dog. That is where Sch fails HARD on having correct thresholds. 

The other day you were saying that hutch had low thresholds. I would love to see this in the defense of handler or the object guard. I am really curious to see if this is true. However, running some blinds is gonna tell you **** all about a dog. Sorry. It is too bad that you moved to **** all nowhere, as I will never be able to know what the dog is all about now.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'll refine the question a little bit more. Two PSD's, male and female. Both meet all the health requirements, both are already certified patrol dogs. No history as to ancestry, neither dog is registered. 

DFrost


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

don.
yes a tittel tel you that the dog is atleast avrage. and from that your/the breeders knowlage takes over. you have a place to start looking. a hig scoring dog is a good start. then you do not nead to beleve the hype. you know that the dog is ok to train and can take some presuer, the rest is up to us to test.

i wuld never breed a dog just based on tittels, ore just on pedegree.
but its a start.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you are going off of phenotype. The military uses this method. Maybe that will help, as you are sort of vague as to what the goals really are.

You should get a couple percentage wise that will be better than the rest.

This is also where personal preference starts becoming prevalent. What YOU like will show up. Many people love training "this" and so see's that more clearly than the rest.

This is also where you will see where your bar really is as far as standards. The first litter however doesn't really count, it is the rest. You never know what you have and you have to start somewhere is what I am saying, damn if I know if I am making sense.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

david.
same senario, just that you know the dogs are good mentaly.
ofcaus its a good start and why not test them, you downt know untill you breed them,.

but its the same, you do not know the real helth of the dogs, what problems they cary, if they both are the only to good dogs out of both liters, if thos lines are badtogether and so on.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

OK Jeff, what are you going to see between a 1 and a 3 that's going to tell you more about how that dog will produce itself?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The control work. The amount of control needed to be on the field for 45 to an hour, without corrections. 

If you are at the beginning in Sch, gotta remember that it has not become boring yet to the dog. Wait till they start inventing shit. The beginning is **** all.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Little story here David. I wanted an Airedale or an English setter. Found the airedale first. Couldn't even catch the dog for the first 1 1/2 years. Didn't have a yard so when she got out she would roam the mountains for two or three days at a time. I got her because her mom was taken out of the ring(she was a straight up show dog) because she would rather fight than show. This bitch would lay along the tree line in the morning eating squirrels, rabbits and what ever else she would catch. She was a natural hunter. I knew enough to know this was becoming a rare thing in the world of airedales...so I started hunting for the first time since I was a kid. One day a hound hunter saw her and was asking questions about airedales. A few weeks later he had found one in Tn that a show breeder would give him because it had a fly away ear and couldn't be shown. He said if I paid the shipping I could use him as a stud dog. I did. Bred off of the bitch and an offspring from the first litter. The male wasn't a big deal at all.

I know this isn't the way everyone says it should be done ideally but many start this way. It was a learning process. I hunted the dogs a lot and found myself thinking about ways to make them better. I was hooked and never looked back. I didn't even hunt before the dogs. Now I breed and watch the dogs more than hunt because hunting isn't the only thing they were really good at. 

What I am saying, I read all this BS about how you have to do this and do that to breed dogs and have to laugh. When a person starts off knowing it all, it leaves very little room to learn. Did you know everything you now know when you first started with dogs or would you say you have learned a thing or two along the way? Everyone starts somewhere but you gotta give em a chance. The only ones that started and ended knowing it all are hobby breeders. They know it all better than anyone having one litter a year. You can't even come close to producing consistency with one litter a year and producing consistency is what breeding is about.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The control work. The amount of control needed to be on the field for 45 to an hour, without corrections.
> 
> If you are at the beginning in Sch, gotta remember that it has not become boring yet to the dog. Wait till they start inventing shit. The beginning is **** all.


I've seen plenty of that, but what does that mean do you think in regards to hereditary behavior? Think it wouldn't show earlier? I've noticed that behavior in plenty dogs not yet achieved a "1". Is it better described as being due to the relationship or the training?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Here is my outlook on this subject. First pick a breed that you are passionate about and study it as much as you can, for many years.
> 
> REALLY ? REALLY ?? How many people, including you did that ??
> ...


How are you going to study a breed without breeding it?

However, your last sentence about studying the people who are breeding, makes sense.

David,
I don't know how you do it over the pond, but on this side, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, etc. the police select their dogs from breeders who are producing HD free, ED normal dogs with good nerves. The training (police dog training only) takes about two years. The chances of getting a healthy, dog that is worth putting through Police Dog training is good. And the Police Dog training will weed the very good ones out of the good ones who, let's face it, can work well in sport. There are a lot of sport dogs over here that would make good police dogs, given the extra training. Harder to train as sport dogs, but with a good Sport Handler, possible.

On the other hand, breeding just for police dogs just isn't financially possible. Neither the police, nor the civil breeders would be interested. 

As for taking a working dog and breeding it to a working dog. How on earth will you know what can come up?

The Walterspiel breeders of Newfoundlands bred the White and Black Newfoundland back (Landseer) by mating Newfoundlands with small white patches on their chests to others and got back the Landseer, after it died out. Simplified, I know, but if you turn it around and face the negative side, you will see whatI mean. It's also very difficult to breed for temperament. What you can't "see" is difficult to breed.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So you are going off of phenotype. The military uses this method. Maybe that will help, as you are sort of vague as to what the goals really are.
> 
> .




The goal is singular; produce dogs suitable for training as PSD's. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm not contemplating breeding anything. I dont' want anything to do with puppies. My question is strictly a hypothetical. Someone said; you have to start somewhere. Two dogs, both sound health and temperment and field tested (both working PSD's) would, in my mind, be a good place to start. 

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What will they produce though???? if it were so easy....


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I'm not contemplating breeding anything. I dont' want anything to do with puppies. My question is strictly a hypothetical. Someone said; you have to start somewhere. Two dogs, both sound health and temperment and field tested (both working PSD's) would, in my mind, be a good place to start.
> 
> DFrost


Maybe its a different perspective when your going to look at something like a 15mo old dog and if it doesnt make it, its gone, vs. I'm getting a puppy that I hope to do something with, but I'm keeping it anyway. For myself I appreciate the breeder's knowledge from the hands on experience with dogs in the venue I'm looking for a dog to do that with. 

Its not that I think titles are everything, but the dogs being trained and then trialed in front of knowledgable people and judges is something that matters to me.Two working PSD's is verifiable in the same way. Maybe I'm just cynical, but to just accept the word of someone claiming nice temperament and a police trainer says they're great is too big of a stretch. When I've bought a dog I look at it as I'm paying for the knowledge that went into the breedings throughout the pedigree. I don't know Fero, or Yoschy, or Nick or Max. I can just put my trust in the people I can ask and hope for the best and I don't think I can do that with someone who had to start somewhere and chose to do that before they really knew much.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I understand what you are saying David. There is nothing wrong with it. We all started somewhere. Like everthing else in life, many will fail, some will continue on and learn from their mistakes. I started with two 50 lb show dogs and only one was what I liked. Let some people breed a couple of litters and suddenly they become the overseers of all dog breeders.


Hey Don, how much is your thinking influenced by your breed being Airdales compared to a breed like German Shepherds?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I'm not contemplating breeding anything. I dont' want anything to do with puppies. My question is strictly a hypothetical. Someone said; you have to start somewhere. Two dogs, both sound health and temperment and field tested (both working PSD's) would, in my mind, be a good place to start.
> 
> DFrost


But hypothetically, these two dogs could maybe produce a litter not on a par with their parents. What then, scrap the litter and start again with two other PSDs, sound health and temperament and field tested?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Steve, the only thinking that may be influence would be because of the different use for the dog. If I bred GSD's, I may have ended up doing protection work. Breeding is breeding. When you walk into a breeders kennelo that says he has breeding for protection for thirty years, look at the dogs. There should be a striking similarity in the dogs. If there isn't, run. Not that many years ago there were actally separate lines within a breed that meant something. If they were bred to swim, you could take any pup and bet he would swim. Also, someone with a bit of knowledge of the breed could look at a random dog standing and tell you who bred it. Those were lines.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm only going on the GSDs, but you can often look at a random dog and tell its lines. For me it would be more important to watch it working and then be able to say which lines it comes from. The "greys" = die Grauen (Leistungshunden) are very similar in looks.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Steve, the only thinking that may be influence would be because of the different use for the dog. If I bred GSD's, I may have ended up doing protection work. Breeding is breeding. When you walk into a breeders kennelo that says he has breeding for protection for thirty years, look at the dogs. There should be a striking similarity in the dogs. If there isn't, run. Not that many years ago there were actally separate lines within a breed that meant something. If they were bred to swim, you could take any pup and bet he would swim. Also, someone with a bit of knowledge of the breed could look at a random dog standing and tell you who bred it. Those were lines.


Well said. My experience is mostly with bull breeds and presa, could usually tell by the look of the dog who bred it, not so much these days....


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

I would be much more for experimental breedings if the idea of culling weren't so unapitizing for people. What happens if you have 10 shitters? Regardless of temperament and health of the parents, the litter could turn out like crap. You could find 10 pet homes and hope the pups don't end up hurting someone. But, then perhaps 10 shelter dogs (from BYBs that may have been discussed before) will get the ax. There is my dilema. But, to each his own.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Or worse yet, 10 dogs that get bred themselves!


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Steve, the only thinking that may be influence would be because of the different use for the dog. If I bred GSD's, I may have ended up doing protection work. Breeding is breeding. When you walk into a breeders kennelo that says he has breeding for protection for thirty years, look at the dogs. There should be a striking similarity in the dogs. If there isn't, run. Not that many years ago there were actally separate lines within a breed that meant something. If they were bred to swim, you could take any pup and bet he would swim. Also, someone with a bit of knowledge of the breed could look at a random dog standing and tell you who bred it. Those were lines.


And I would think that gets lost because people who need to start somewhere get started before they ever should and breed dogs because the whole family thinks they're wonderful. Maybe some guy whos trained some dogs says nice dog and now you just have to breed them. Now this person is claiming those lines are what they breed and so is everyone that bought one.

What I mean Don, when I ask how does your breed influence how you feel about starting breeding, is of any of the Airdales I ever see, to me, they all look and seem like pretty good dogs. Maybe not up to the standard you set, but not the structural and temperamental wrecks you see with German Shepherds.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Erynn Lucas said:


> If one could have the opportunity to see an older puppy and not have to make the decision to purchase an 8 week old puppy than I would love it! Because most sport breeders sell the puppies at 8 weeks it would be more comfort to a buyer to have a long history of dogs that could work in the pedigree.


I think Erynn has a good point. Many people that are buying 12-18 month old dogs are buying the dog in front of them, not the pedigree. They can test the dog, not just the drives, stability, grip, etc but also test it physically (x-rays and such). So if they are strictly looking for a dog to do a job, ie aren't looking at the dog for breeding, all they care about is what is in front of them. People who are buying 8 week old pups are buying a "hope for the future" and are going to put a lot more stock in the parents and ancestors of the pup since there is only so much testing you can do to an 8 week old pup. 

So breeding two good police dogs from unknown lines might produce 12-18 month old dogs that are perfect for police work, but who is going to be willing to buy them as pups and take the risk? Is the breeder going to keep the dogs back until they are old enough to be tested for police work? It's kind of a catch-22 if they aren't, since the dogs they are breeding aren't going to be attractive to a lot of the puppy market, and they aren't born the age needed for the police market.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

In my case with the gsd, I selected just a couple lines that I favored at the time, and slowly branched out with other lines that were partially similar to what I already had. Eventually did away with what lines I didn't like when unfavorable reproducing patterns revealed themselves, and _still trying to identify_ what my type is exactly. Part of my goal is for a versatile genetic behavior, equiped to engage in a broad spectrum of disciplines, not overspecialized in a way that negates potential for other forms of work or living conditions. Like a german shepherd is supposed to be.

I couldn't say when the day will come that you look at a dog and know it came from my breeding. I'm still all over the place. While I've been fortunate in very consistently producing healthy offspring, the not yet attained uniformity goal for my "type" is in temperament and drives, so who knows what outward appearance they'll ultimately show with real consistency. That'll be the final step; health, temperament, _then appearance,_ which will take care of itself, mostly through inbreeding.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Someone said; you have to start somewhere. Two dogs, both sound health and temperment and field tested (both working PSD's) would, in my mind, be a good place to start.
> 
> DFrost





Gillian Schuler said:


> What will they produce though???? if it were so easy....


David, not that i know anything but I have been trying to pay attention to everything I am learning. If one were to take Dons approach with these two hypothetical dogs. What is the character and temperament of the bitch? How well does she work what traits will she imprint on that 1st litter of pups? How will she lay their foundations. Seems when Don started it was his bitch that had the genes that would do the work and then you build from there keeping your eye on the long term goals. I would assume before taking on something of this magnitude that it would take great wisdom in deed to know what you are trying to accomplish. You may not have sage like wisdom of the end result but a good idea and you learn as you go but.... 

The slippery slope it seems is what to do with the bad apples along the way. Your talking multiple breedings before you start seeing consistency. Personally I believe breeding is a burden not to be taken as lightly as most folks do. Yes you have to start somewhere but it definitely is a art form. 

Like carpentry any yahoo can nail 2 boards together and call it a boat but does it sail? 

Very interesting topic everyone.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

every club i am sure has a few people with one male and one female that they say they are going to breed.
(Heck, most have more than a few)
and who doesnt know about an accidental litter?
then multiply all those dogs that were shitters times the average litter number and those shittes by the average litter number. its like that old they told 2 friends and they told two friends and so on and so on
the concern is the 10,000 shitters to get a couple good pds's


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I'm not contemplating breeding anything. I dont' want anything to do with puppies. My question is strictly a hypothetical. Someone said; you have to start somewhere. Two dogs, both sound health and temperment and field tested (both working PSD's) would, in my mind, be a good place to start.
> 
> DFrost


You must start somewhere is true. I think with the goal you stated "produce police k9s", you can start at a much better place. 

It would be different if you couldn't find a male and female of equally good working quality, health and pedigree history known. 

With the hypothetical goal stated you have many options when selecting a pairing where the background will be known. With the background you may learn which lines combine best and not try to re-invent something when there is are great models out there already. 

I'm not talking purebred dogs even, but having the knowledge of the background is important. I think if you picked just as good female (say Dutchie) with background known and a male Malinois that is great and background is known or 2 of the same breed if you prefer, you will be miles ahead in breeding rather than going with 2 dogs of unknown orgins that are good working dogs.

I love hypothetic questions! Hey, it's not like you are trying to do something "weird" like produce working Beauces or the like! :-D


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I love hypothetic questions! Hey, it's not like you are trying to do something "weird" like produce working Beauces or the like! :-D


HA HA, no ma'am, I'm not doing any breeding of anything. 1. All of our females are spayed. 2. It's against state law to breed state owned animals (all dogs are owned by the state). 3. It's against General order to breed working dogs and 4. I don't want the hassle of puppies. Regardless of who breeds, there will be dogs that don't make it and I don't want to deal with that, or even raising the ones that do make it. ha ha. No ma'am, from my perspective, strictly a hypothetical question. 

Kind of like the question; Define a "backyard breeder". ha ha. 

DFrost


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

David Frost said:


> HA HA, no ma'am, I'm not doing any breeding of anything. *1. All of our females are spayed. 2. It's against state law to breed state owned animals (all dogs are owned by the state). 3. It's against General order to breed working dogs* and 4. I don't want the hassle of puppies. Regardless of who breeds, there will be dogs that don't make it and I don't want to deal with that, or even raising the ones that do make it. ha ha. No ma'am, from my perspective, strictly a hypothetical question.
> 
> Kind of like the question; Define a "backyard breeder". ha ha.
> 
> DFrost


David is it against state law to breed in TN only or are most states like that. Why is that a law anyhow? Curious.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

David Frost said:


> HA HA, no ma'am, I'm not doing any breeding of anything. 1. All of our females are spayed. 2. It's against state law to breed state owned animals (all dogs are owned by the state). 3. It's against General order to breed working dogs and 4. I don't want the hassle of puppies. Regardless of who breeds, there will be dogs that don't make it and I don't want to deal with that, or even raising the ones that do make it. ha ha. No ma'am, from my perspective, strictly a hypothetical question.
> 
> Kind of like the question; Define a "backyard breeder". ha ha.
> 
> DFrost


The question you asked was hypothetical/theoretical was it not regarding 2 dogs of merit, but of unknown origins? I gave my opinion regarding such an idea. Didn't you want responses? I'm not cross-breeding either, but discussions are entertaining and educational... Those what ifs :-s

Definition: A hypothetical circumstance, condition, scenario, or situation: _OK, let's consider this possibility then-just as a hypothetical._ 

Of course the female k9s are spayed in real life, but many male k9s are bred..ssshhh!:-$

It's sort of like define "abuse"...one knows it when they see it.



*Backyard breeder \\/
*

An individual who causally breeds dogs without titles or clearances and without any clear regard for improving, and maintaining the breed standard, temperament or keeping it free of genetically linked defects.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jason Hammel said:


> David is it against state law to breed in TN only or are most states like that. Why is that a law anyhow? Curious.


I can't speak for other states. The problem is, there was a canine program that was doing some breeding. They were selling the puppies and keeping the money. There were personally benefitting from state owned property, which of course, is illegal. Unless you are a legislator. Wait did I just think that or type it. So technically, it isn't against the law, per se, to breed state owned animals, it's against the law to profit from it. It is against department general orders to breed any working dog, period.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Debbie, perhaps we crossed wires somewhere. It was purely hypothetical and I enjoyed the conversation. I agree it was interesting.

DFrost


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Debbie, perhaps we crossed wires somewhere. It was purely hypothetical and I enjoyed the conversation. I agree it was interesting.
> 
> DFrost


I was joking too..except don't call me ma'am! Those are fighting words! :x I'm turning 45yrs old on Friday. Probably I'm being touchy! :-D


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I was joking too..except don't call me ma'am! Those are fighting words! :x I'm turning 45yrs old on Friday. Probably I'm being touchy! :-D


Yes ma'am, I'll try not to do that, ha ha. Habits are hard to break.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Debbie said
"I'm turning 45yrs on Friday. Probably I'm being touchy". 

Them youngsters sure are a touchy bunch ain't they David! :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Happy birthday tooooo youuuuuu happy birthday toooo youuuuuuu happy birthday happy birthday, happy birthdayyyyyyyyyyy toooooooooooooooo youuuuuuuuuuuuuu.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

What did I start! ](*,) 

Thank you both. Pops! :-D:-D


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

HAPPY EARLY BIRTHDAY! to YOUUUUUUU! 

Debbie here in the south and in the military "Ma'am" is a term of high respect for a female person. If my son doesn't say " yes Ma'am/No Ma'am" he will get chewed out by myself or my wife. We in grain it generation after generation. 

Now I work in California and they just don't get it. So I try and limit its use when on the phone w/ a californian.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jason Hammel said:


> HAPPY EARLY BIRTHDAY! to YOUUUUUUU!
> 
> Debbie here in the south and in the military "Ma'am" is a term of high respect for a female person. If my son doesn't say " yes Ma'am/No Ma'am" he will get chewed out by myself or my wife. We in grain it generation after generation.
> 
> Now I work in California and they just don't get it. So I try and limit its use when on the phone w/ a californian.


I feel bad for getting weird about it. Normally us Californians are easy going people. 

I should of taking a hike with the dogs and then touched the keyboard. I hypothetically lost it for a moment! #-o

Thank you..Thank you...Thank you...Thank you..

My Bad Completely. :-D:-D


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It's early, but, wasn't it Barbara Boxer that also took offence to a term of respect from a marine?


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> It's early, but, wasn't it Barbara Boxer that also took offence to a term of respect from a marine?


Something like this:

"You know, do me a favor," an irritated Debbie said. "Could say 'Debbie' instead of 'ma'am?'"
"Yes, ma'am," David interjected.
"It's just a thing, I worked so hard to get that title, so I'd appreciate it, yes, thank you," she said. 
"Yes,Debbie," David responded.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Something like this:
> 
> "You know, do me a favor," an irritated Debbie said. "Could say 'Debbie' instead of 'ma'am?'"
> "Yes, ma'am," David interjected.
> ...


 
Yep thats the one. Where she got upity towards Brigadier General Michael Walsh. Did you get the email thats was being ciculated from the Alaskan Air National Guard Pilot about that? It is awesome! However in the letter written back to Ms boxer there are a load of political things which I cannot post here. 

You can find it on snopes by typing her name. It is the very 1st ref to come up.


Ok now back to Davids Hypothetical Working Dog Breeding Question.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

David, I didn't read all the posts so what I'm about to say may have been said already.

Temperment and health are a combination you look for in breeding. A pedigree is just something that you can also use to help with which two to pair together. I like it this way, temperment , health and pedigree together. All being of equal values except maybe pedigree being just a hair of less importance but still important. Pedigree is just an added value that can give you some history. With all three values don't mean that two dogs that is the best in each will produce perfect pups with that value. We all know that doesn't work but though I would still mention it. Breeding is an educated crap shoot. Use every advantage you have to produce what you are looking for in pups.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

steve strom said:


> something like this:
> 
> "you know, do me a favor," an irritated debbie said. "could say 'debbie' instead of 'ma'am?'"
> "yes, ma'am," david interjected.
> ...


hypothetically speaking, right? \\/


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

btw, what's wrong with the smiley icons...sometimes they don't show up, but instead just with some characters..


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> hypothetically speaking, right? \\:d/


Yes Maam.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Steve Strom said:


> Yes Maam.


Thanks for the Desensitizing  Training or would it be called "Late" Neurological Stimulation or LNS? Hypothetically speaking, siir? :grin:


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Thanks for the Desensitizing Training or would it be called "Late" Neurological Stimulation or LNS? Hypothetically speaking, siir? :grin:


I cant answer that. I'll need to check with Mirriam W. and get back to you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> btw, what's wrong with the smiley icons...sometimes they don't show up, but instead just with some characters..



There has to be a space or return after (and between) every icon. 

\\/ \\/ \\/ 

(Space after each one)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh, and one of them actually doesn't always work .... I forget which one. It doesn't always show up in the choices box, either. Maybe the clapping one? Nor sure.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, and one of them actually doesn't always work .... I forget which one. It doesn't always show up in the choices box, either. Maybe the clapping one? Nor sure.


Thanks. When I tried to make the clapping one bigger it didn't work either. The spaces must be what I'm doing wrong.

This is a test. :lol: 

=D> =D> 

 

=P~ =P~


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Thanks. When I tried to make the clapping one bigger it didn't work either. The spaces must be what I'm doing wrong.
> 
> This is a test. :lol:
> 
> ...



It's the clapping one for sure.


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