# Quinto Vom Logan Haus 5 months



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Here is a short video of our Quinto Vom Logan Haus at 5 months old. He is learning to ignore distractions and focus on target odor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q2HyoRg-ag&feature=youtu.be


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Another nice dog Mike.
Are you using balls with Quinto and food with Dexter simply because they are driven a little differently? Or are you experimenting with a couple different methods here? Overall, you seem to be working towards the same goal with different tools so I am just curious.

Also, who is Quinto out of?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Alison Grubb said:


> Another nice dog Mike.
> Are you using balls with Quinto and food with Dexter simply because they are driven a little differently? Or are you experimenting with a couple different methods here? Overall, you seem to be working towards the same goal with different tools so I am just curious.
> 
> Also, who is Quinto out of?


Both dogs will work for food and a toy just the same. We are using both for each of them. We will switch them both over to a toy soon.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Alison Grubb said:


> Another nice dog Mike.
> Are you using balls with Quinto and food with Dexter simply because they are driven a little differently? Or are you experimenting with a couple different methods here? Overall, you seem to be working towards the same goal with different tools so I am just curious.
> 
> Also, who is Quinto out of?


To elaborate on Mike's reply, we've been working both pups for food but recently decided to start them on a toy reward. They have both been worked with food and toys ...we just posted video of each to show the progression. They are started with food as young puppies and as their drive and commitment to hunt for a toy increases, we begin introducing a toy as a reward for locating target odor. We still use food to shape the desired final response even after they have been rewarded with a toy as it's easier to shape exactly what we want with food and then encourage them to work in a higher state of drive for the toy once they show clear odor recognition and proper final response.

We aren't really using different "methods." The goal of each session is to ensure the dogs learn to ignore distraction odors and handler/environmental cues in order to seek out target odor. We don't try to hide the reward or convince them that they are hunting for their toy or food ...we want them to understand that the only path to gaining reward is to locate and respond to target odor even if they can see or smell rewards elsewhere. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Randy Hare's method, but what we're doing is very similar. The pups know I have hot dogs in my hand or that there are balls in the other tubes, but they will never be able to access those rewards until they are at source.

Quinto is out of Miley and Arco Roosen.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

No real questions here that I expect to get answered, I was just thinking and typing.

What do you find are the pros and cons of doing it this way? How are they holding up working after being trained like this?

I don't see this as any different that introducing distractors at an older age with a dog that hasn't been exposed to bad training and that is where most of my wondering comes in. IE good rewards at source and ensuring the dog stays focused longer and longer on a variable reward increasing the level of distraction later, after the dog is hunting well, etc.. I wonder if solidifying the alert for a while before adding the distraction would make the dog stronger or not. Put more emphasis on the hunting vs. the alert. I know this is only a snap shot of your training.

Don't know if that matters at all. Curious to see what an older finished dog would look like it. I certainly like the distractions and sticking with odor. I have messed around with this in obedience with a tug on the ground, and I see it as a very simliar exercise, as well as doing the same thing in detection. the dog knows where a reward is but still has to comply before being released to get the reward, or taking a reward delivered at source. release word would seem to be the big cue to train. No release word, no reward. 

I think for this to work the fight at source has to be higher value than anything else for the dog, otherwise, you are just training with negative punishment around distractions. I get that these are young dogs and they may get more intense for the reward as you go. but I wonder how passing a similar reward up at this age effects them, positively or negatively as far as their drive for the toy and the finished product.

I make no secret of not liking puppies for working. I have had a lot more repetitions with older dogs, and haven't done much puppy stuff so I am operantly conditioned to like the adults better. But I do wonder...I wonder if you put all this time in and a chair falls near the dog while hunting at 6 months old if you are just wasting time, even though this is neat stuff. I am sure as a business owner you are trying to find better ways to produce better dogs for your clients, as your motivation. probably some desire to try some new stuff towards that end as well.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I wonder if you put all this time in and a chair falls near the dog while hunting at 6 months old if you are just wasting time, even though this is neat stuff.


Dave, do you mean an actual chair falling or was "a chair falls" in reference to something else? I read it and thought I understood where you were going with that but wanted to clarify to be certain.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> No real questions here that I expect to get answered, I was just thinking and typing.
> 
> What do you find are the pros and cons of doing it this way? How are they holding up working after being trained like this?
> 
> ...


Dave, I will post some video of one of our older pups hunting for a toy outside of this context as you see it here in this video. They actually hunt very well for their age, the video here isn't a hunting excercise, it is simply to teach them odor recognition and a response to it, with some distractions thrown in for them to learn to ignore. they have very solid nerves and are not affected by "falling chairs" as they have seen that stuff since they were about 10 days old. I think the pros of starting them early in detection is the same as starting them early in obedience, tracking, or bitework. It sets the early foundation and imprinting, and as long as it is kept short and fun we have seen no downside to it at all.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> No real questions here that I expect to get answered, I was just thinking and typing.
> 
> What do you find are the pros and cons of doing it this way? How are they holding up working after being trained like this?
> 
> ...


This is just my take on things ...

When I got Blitzen as a pup, I was cautioned about doing too much other than drive building and basic foundation work while she was young. It was suggested that puppies are too immature to have the focus and work ethic to do detection work. I accepted that as it was coming from someone with much more experience than me, but was also curious as to exactly what would happen if you did start introducing odor work to puppies at a young age. Plenty of trainers teach obedience and tracking from a young age ...why was detection taboo?

This is the second group of pups we've done this sort of work with and I am really pleased at what can be accomplished with puppies at such a young age. The goal isn't to rush them through this and finish them on odor ASAP. We still do drive building and teach them to hunt for toys, but target odor association begins very young. Sure, we may find out that one of these pups has a major hole that requires them to be washed out, but that would happen regardless of whether or not we do odor work with them. Personally, I enjoy it and I believe pups are so much more of a clean slate. Just as I've noticed when shaping other behaviors from a young age, they seem to absorb and retain the odor imprinting we do more quickly than an adult or adolescent dog does ...perhaps because they aren't so intense and conditioned to look for a certain game when they come out to work.

We are just laying a foundation ...perfecting a final response and conditioning, from the beginning, the propensity to ignore distractions and cues and follow their nose and target odor. The pups don't have any baggage and, as long as we don't screw up too badly, they don't develop bad habits. Once they mature and we start asking them to do more advanced detection behaviors, they already have a solid foundation. It definitely seemed to make the process much easier and more fluid with the last group. Our goal with these pups is not to sell them but to raise them as our own so we'll continue to post updates of their progress. I can't say we'll have a "finished" product any earlier than if we had started later in their lives, but I do believe they will have a better understanding of exactly what will be rewarded. 

There's really no holding up on their parts ...they are puppies and we want to keep it fun. If they are having an off day, we put them up. But most days, they are hungry and want hot dogs or are excited to come out and play with a ball. They may not hunt as intensely as adults, but they are clear and focused and still show good desire and possessiveness for the ball. The only con I can see is the desire in the handler to push too far too fast because they make progress so quickly. We have to remember that they are puppies and this has to be fun and not work.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Here is a video of one of our puppies at 4 months old hunting for a toy inside. She was imprinted on our detection system from about 8 weeks old. In my opinion she hunts as good as any 4 month old puppy, so I don't think that starting her on odor early hurt her in any way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioNhWyvF-vU&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=12

I am uploading three videos now of one of our 11 month old pups hunting inside. I will post them when they are finished uploading to youtube.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Here are three short videos of one of our 11 month old puppies hunting for a toy. I also don't think that this puppy has any noticable loss of hunt drive or desire for the toy as a result of being started too early. In fact, it is very difficult to get a toy back from this puppy already, and I think his hunt drive is good for his very young age. He is always focused on hunting and not easily distracted. We just sold this puppy Saturday to a PD in Ohio, so we can't get any more video of him, but we have other's who are still here that we can get some video of soon hopefully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAcY_eYTM8Q&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M-Iun7ZA6A&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMldNHy2F7w&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks for posting. I am just wondering. I want a dog to hunt. I want hunt for a long time. Having worked a lot of detector dogs operationally for long periods, that is the one thing I need the dog to have is the desire to hunt. I can teach the reast.

I wonder if the imprinting the alert affects the hunting negatively. I understand that you are trying to produce something better. I get that. I get that the hunting isn't the focus here. But you cant find it if you don't hunt, and I wonder how one alters the other. 

Hunting this early isn't my question, but alerting is. Searching past balls (a with held reward) at this age is also where my wonder lies. In essence, you are teaching a dog NOT to be nutty about a ball, but a ball in odor. Is that too much?

I don't suppose you have enough statistical data at this point to weigh it really one way or the other, unless you are training, not training, and keeping a control group in a vacuum with each litter. 

I do think it's neat stuff. I'd like to see it first hand. Don't really have too much of an opinion yet, but my operant conditioning tells me it's not the same way I've done it, so question it. thanks for opening up your shop and posting thoughtful training videos.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks for posting. I am just wondering. I want a dog to hunt. I want hunt for a long time. Having worked a lot of detector dogs operationally for long periods, that is the one thing I need the dog to have is the desire to hunt. I can teach the reast.
> 
> I wonder if the imprinting the alert affects the hunting negatively. I understand that you are trying to produce something better. I get that. I get that the hunting isn't the focus here. But you cant find it if you don't hunt, and I wonder how one alters the other.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying for sure. Not sure if you watched the last videos I just posted on here of our young dogs hunting, but in my opinion they hunt good for their ages an I really don't think our system of starting them very young has hurt their hunt or toy drive at all. Quinto and Dexter are learning to ignore a ball here on the wall as they search for target odor, but when they are in a different context they are crazy for a ball, even copper pipes, and are very difficult to get a toy back from already at only 5 and 6 months old.

In our last group of puppies who were started this way, none of them had any lack of desire or intensity for the hunt or the toy when they were mature. In fact two of them just recently graduated from a large DP police dog class where they were the best two narcotics dogs in the class. For us this is about us learning more as trainers, getting to watch baby puppies grow up and learn from birth, shaping a desired response to target odor at a very early age and proofing off of distrations as we go. I know that we could wait until they were a year old to do this, we could also wait until they are a year old to do OB, tracking, or any kind of bitework, but we chose to show it all to the pups very early on and in a way that is fun for them and makes them want to do it more. 
In that area where the detection walls are they have done nothing else in their lives there but odor work. So that room only means one thing for them, an every time I let them out of their crate they try to bolt past me to go into that room.......I guess they must be having fun in there or else they wouldn't be so hell bent on going in there on their own to search.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Quinto and Dexter are learning to ignore a ball here on the wall as they search for target odor, but when they are in a different context they are crazy for a ball, even copper pipes, and are very difficult to get a toy back from already at only 5 and 6 months old.


 
I understand what you are saying. The top statement would lead me to believe while hunting they aren't nuts. That was my concern.

Below it sounds like it is an unwarranted concern long term. I hope you keep good records on what you do. I really do find this stuff interesting. 20 years from now when you finally develop the dog that sniffs through its ass or feet, or teach it to read drug labels, it will be interesting to read about how you got there. 




mike suttle said:


> In our last group of puppies who were started this way, none of them had any lack of desire or intensity for the hunt or the toy when they were mature. In fact two of them just recently graduated from a large DP police dog class where they were the best two narcotics dogs in the class.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

maybe I missed it but what is the target odor?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> maybe I missed it but what is the target odor?


We are training Dexter and Quinto on birch oil. We plan to keep those two pups here and start competing in Nose Work trials with them.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> We are training Dexter and Quinto on birch oil. We plan to keep those two pups here and start competing in Nose Work trials with them.


that would be cool to have a record of them as they progressed through training and then sitting next to a ribbon or trophy or whatever the award is at the trials.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

A friend just sent this to me in response to the ongoing discussion on this topic:

From *K9 Suspect Discrimination: Training and Practicing Scent Identification Line-Ups *by Adee Schoon & Ruud Haak:

Chp. 4 pg. 58- "The development of the glomeruli in the bulbus olfactorius is partly determined by which odors an animal comes across. By training a young animal on an odor, it develops more olfactory sensory neurons for that particular odor and the matching glomerules also becomes more developed."

Chp. 4 pg. 61- "Odors that the dogs learn when young, especially those associated with mother-care, are memorized particularly well......"

Their research certainly lends some creedence to the idea that imprinting puppies on odors can be useful later in life.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> We are training Dexter and Quinto on birch oil. We plan to keep those two pups here and start competing in Nose Work trials with them.


Any particular organization your trialing through? We would probably be interested in competing. I am totally ignorant about any groups/organizations that put on these kinds of events. (outside LE)


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> Any particular organization your trialing through? We would probably be interested in competing. I am totally ignorant about any groups/organizations that put on these kinds of events. (outside LE)


The National Association of Canine Nosework is the organization that I'm familiar with. The trials on the east coast are few and far between but the sport is growing.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I understand what you are saying for sure. Not sure if you watched the last videos I just posted on here of our young dogs hunting, but in my opinion they hunt good for their ages an I really don't think our system of starting them very young has hurt their hunt or toy drive at all. Quinto and Dexter are learning to ignore a ball here on the wall as they search for target odor, but when they are in a different context they are crazy for a ball, even copper pipes, and are very difficult to get a toy back from already at only 5 and 6 months old.
> 
> In our last group of puppies who were started this way, none of them had any lack of desire or intensity for the hunt or the toy when they were mature. In fact two of them just recently graduated from a large DP police dog class where they were the best two narcotics dogs in the class. For us this is about us learning more as trainers, getting to watch baby puppies grow up and learn from birth, shaping a desired response to target odor at a very early age and proofing off of distrations as we go. I know that we could wait until they were a year old to do this, we could also wait until they are a year old to do OB, tracking, or any kind of bitework, but we chose to show it all to the pups very early on and in a way that is fun for them and makes them want to do it more.
> In that area where the detection walls are they have done nothing else in their lives there but odor work. So that room only means one thing for them, an every time I let them out of their crate they try to bolt past me to go into that room.......I guess they must be having fun in there or else they wouldn't be so hell bent on going in there on their own to search.


In the last videos you posted, was that dog taught an alert early on like the other two? Or was he just taught to hunt for the ball?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> The National Association of Canine Nosework is the organization that I'm familiar with. The trials on the east coast are few and far between but the sport is growing.


I looked at their site and yeah ... most all of their events are west coast... the dirty south is working dog no mans land .. followed by the east coast LOL ...I did see a couple happening this month in MO thats the closest I see to where I am .. gotta love living on the deserted island of working dog fun lol


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Any particular organization your trialing through? We would probably be interested in competing. I am totally ignorant about any groups/organizations that put on these kinds of events. (outside LE)


www.fun*nosework*.com/

Brian.

They put trials on with different levels. ORT is an odor recognition test they do for one of the three odors. Birch, Anise and Clove. Specific kinds of odor that you don't have to buy from them, but you have to get the specific thing.

The ORT is the dog finding it in boxes and then it progressively gets harder. Each level there is a new odor I believe and on level three throw in a bunch of distractors, longer searches, harder areas. They have it set up as a money maker for them. ORT and a level. Pretty pricey to trial a couple of dogs.

I had a house dog trained up on food to go do the ORT. I took a job overseas instead but I took him to a few locations and ran the ORT blind, so I think he would have done okay. The group seemed pretty professional and answered a lot of questions I had. A lot easier than tracking as far as finding space to train and ease of training for a handler if you were going to do it with students. You can do the box stuff in your driveway or garage (as you know) and go from there.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> www.fun*nosework*.com/
> 
> Brian.
> 
> ...


very cool Dave... I am looking in to it and thanks.. man its tough to hit the road with the dogs these days like we used to do at 4.00 and up gas... at least for us it is.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> very cool Dave... I am looking in to it and thanks.. man its tough to hit the road with the dogs these days like we used to do at 4.00 and up gas... at least for us it is.


 
gotta buy a prius.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> gotta buy a prius.


We have an HHR which gets great mileage and can haul two dog crates and gear ... but even at that travelling very far is considerable as far as cost. Since my kids are so danged sprawled out across the country I try to save my travelling cash to go see them ... and get a break from the dogs while doing so LOL


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

FYI
The United States Nose Work Association is a new organization working on getting nose work to be a UKC titling event

http://www.facebook.com/groups/255675937883102/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ukcnosework/


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> In the last videos you posted, was that dog taught an alert early on like the other two? Or was he just taught to hunt for the ball?


Saying they have been "taught" an alert is a little misleading. The puppies don't know sit or down prior to training. We just try to mark the behaviors we want and they usually default to a passive response that gets them closest to the odor ...down on the low hides, sit on the medium and higher hides. 

We still have them hunt for toys, but with Dexter and Quinto we are only having them hunt for scented toys because we are keeping them and have a specific goal.

Eddie, the dog in the video, was started in the detection system we use when he was younger. In the video, he was just hunting for a ball with no odor.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> FYI
> The United States Nose Work Association is a new organization working on getting nose work to be a UKC titling event
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/255675937883102/
> ...


Cool .. preciate the info!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> FYI
> The United States Nose Work Association is a new organization working on getting nose work to be a UKC titling event
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/255675937883102/
> ...


 
Some of their judging requirements I have mixed emotions about. Nice to see them keeping things the same acrross the board, but on the other hand, they will have a very small pool of judges for a while. I sent them David Frosts resume to see if they can get him on board.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> FYI
> The United States Nose Work Association is a new organization working on getting nose work to be a UKC titling event
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/255675937883102/
> ...


Went and peeked at the facebook page and there is someone wanting to put together a seminar right down the road from me lol .. how convenient .. that cant possibly happen HAHAH... thanks again for the link


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Some of their judging requirements I have mixed emotions about. Nice to see them keeping things the same acrross the board, but on the other hand, they will have a very small pool of judges for a while. I sent them David Frosts resume to see if they can get him on board.


There has been some discussion on the judging requirements, so I think there might be some changes in the future ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Went and peeked at the facebook page and there is someone wanting to put together a seminar right down the road from me lol .. how convenient .. that cant possibly happen HAHAH... thanks again for the link


Glad it helped.


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