# bite sports training vs personal protection training



## rick smith

true or false ?
- and forget GENETICS for just a moment ... i'm assuming all dogs in this discussion will bite 

basic premise : ANY training using ANY method is just conditioning a dog to do something you want it to do when you tell it to do it - true ?
- regardless of how complex the behavior is, training is just developing a conditioned response

- particularly bite sports
- imo, the dog is not making any DECISIONS on its own...NEVER...not even in an OG, NOT in a defense of handler, and not in an escort
(and imo this applies a lot to tracking too even tho the behavior is based on pure instinct)

now move to "protection" ... an over used term that gets mentioned a lot in bite sports
(and not security dogs guarding a yard...i'm talking personal protection)
- (professional) personal protection dogs require training too ... true ?

if you want to train a dog for personal protection you must somehow get the dog to recognize what is and isn't a threat, and again, this has NOTHING to do with the "protection" that is supposedly demonstrated on a trial field - true ?
example :
.....imo KNPV dogs are not protecting their handler when they are performing...it's a GAME they are bred and trained to love, taken to the extreme, with much less or none of the OB/tracking/agility, etc involved then what is required in other ring sports. imo that's why a lot of people like to watch it and also why titled KNPV dogs don't always make easy dogs to handle for PSD work, unless the handler doesn't care and can live with a "tuff" dog to handle......often acceptable since OB and "social skills" often takes a back seat for police work too 

imo, this not the same at all with personal protection dogs which i think would also require a LOT of OB and "social skills" since they will be placed in homes, rich people's estates, etc

i don't know any PPD trainers and i have never seen what the hyped up "executive personal protection K9's" that are sold for mega bucks to rich paranoid people are like, and haven't even seen a demo, but i "guess" it can be done, to a certain extent, but it would require a LOT of very specific scenario driven sessions to CONDITION a dog to recognizing the differences in threat levels. my gut feeling is the mega buck PPD's will only come with a mega buck handler too, because it's just too damn hard to train a dog for independent thinking that will involve aggression and biting  ...true ?

- if you're looking to train in the PPD area, it would seem to make a difference to me in how u would condition it as a pup, regardless of the genes it comes with....and would the down side be that not many will be able to do the job and wash out along the way and become problem dogs from then on and be hard to place anywhere ....true ?

I guess my main question is :
is it way harder to train a personal protection dog than a bite sport dog ?

never done it so it's all a wag ... but i have a fair idea idea of how you would have to "get there" and seems like it would be via a different route than the bite sport clubs ... true ?


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## Rashae Lamar

aye rick im training my female dog for personal protection and my male for sport, we do the same training for both but we focus on good bite, bad situations. In a way the dog will sense when the time is right and when the threat level is right. For example raising your voice and walking toward me or family turns our female on.


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## Maren Bell Jones

No real answers for you, just some comments...



rick smith said:


> - particularly bite sports
> - imo, the dog is not making any DECISIONS on its own...NEVER...not even in an OG, NOT in a defense of handler, and not in an escort
> (and imo this applies a lot to tracking too even tho the behavior is based on pure instinct)


I'm assuming you mean personal protection (of a person, obviously) and not of something else like property guardian or livestock guardian where they do have to make some decisions on their own. I'm curious...how much for a personal protection dog do you even want making their own decisions? I honestly don't know. I wouldn't think a huge ton. Dogs don't always make the best decisions on the their own after all. Example: the dog jumps through a screen window to protect because they hear the kids in the house rough housing with the neighbor kids who came over to play. Good decision or bad decision? Dog stands guard over a badly injured or incapacitated owner barking and raising hell so the EMTs or police cannot rescue said person and ends up getting shot just to get them to move. Good decision or bad decision? I don't know either way. Just curious what the PPD people think.




> I guess my main question is :
> is it way harder to train a personal protection dog than a bite sport dog ?
> 
> never done it so it's all a wag ... but i have a fair idea idea of how you would have to "get there" and seems like it would be via a different route than the bite sport clubs ... true ?


I don't train in personal protection either (nor the upper level control stuff in my sport yet), but not sure why PPD would be "way harder." In PPD, you aren't really looking for the precision that is required nor many components of the different sports (plus or minus retrieving, tracking, agility aspects, etc). I guess in PPD, you'd be looking to make sure you cover as many scenarios as you think the dog would need to know. Still requiring obedience, just not to the level of precision you'd need in something like PSA or Schutzhund. Like you probably wouldn't need to train a really strong attention heel for a PPD. Maybe just a good "watch me" for maybe 20 seconds would suffice instead of extended attention heeling. Down or sit in motion exercises also would probably not be needed. So control yes, stability yes, strong temperament yes, precision no. Then again I don't do PPD either, so everybody has their own needs. Most people just need a large dark colored dog to bark as a deterrent dog... *shrug*


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## Thomas Barriano

I think PP dogs are MUCH easier to train.
You say bite...they bite
You say Stop....they stop
assuming they have decent temperament and training.
Most of the time they're on a four ft leash so they have the
support of the owner and their proximity so the protective
instincts should kick in. 
Sport dogs have to have basic obedience, ability to jump,
retrieve, escort, search etc. etc.
They have to work away from the handler on escape and long bites and on blind searches/escorts and object guards


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## Ben Colbert

rick smith said:


> - imo, the dog is not making any DECISIONS on its own...NEVER...not even in an OG, NOT in a defense of handler, and not in an escort
> (and imo this applies a lot to tracking too even tho the behavior is based on pure instinct)



I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this.

Of course the dog is making decisions. Every thing a dog does is an internal cost benefit calculation.


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## Jerry Lyda

You said,"I guess my main question is :
is it way harder to train a personal protection dog than a bite sport dog ?"

My answer is yes.
Reason: You can and will loose points on the trial field. In real life where the dog may have to be used, what is the most you can loose?


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## Adam Swilling

Jerry wins the prize for best answer. That's it in a nutshell. Not trying to start a side bar here, but sport is about control more than anything else. It doesn't matter if a PP is not looking at you during the heeling phase.


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## Ben Colbert

How can you possibly think it's harder to create a PP dog than a sport dog?

We're assuming that we have two dogs that are of the exact same caliber.

Dog A is a PPD. You don't have to teach it to heel. You have to "teach" it to bite and maybe teach it to out (or you could choke it off).

Dog B is a sport dog. It needs an on point, perfect position, full attention heel. It needs to out, guard, object guard, redirect, etc.

Do you need a stronger dog for PPD? Probably. But given you have a strong enough dog sport training is definitely harder.


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## Jerry Lyda

Dog B: you are correct. God forbid loosing points.

Now let's talk about Dog A. PPD dog. 
You don't need that type heeling. You don't want it. There is no threat hiding under my ball cap. The threat could be in front behind or beside me. I want my dog to see this before I do. Dog A: needs to have a call off without failure. Guess why if a child somehow enters the picture, just wonders in. Dog MUST be stopped. On the trial field no harm but it is a foul.

To make a very long story short, dog A must have bite control, which is obedience, just not focused heeling. He must be able to be controlled and for this reason more control than a sport trial dog. Those dogs get many chances and a PPD dog may only get one and it must be right.


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## Ben Colbert

Jerry, I can't think of a single case where someone would send a PPD long enough to require a call off. Lets be serious. 

A guy standing 10 feet away? Dog gets there before little Suzy can wander enter the picture or probably before you could even consider calling the dog off.

A guy 30 feet away? Shoots the dog before the call off and then Suzy and then you.

An actual PPD used for PPD for someone that is worried about their safety is used in the home and office and maybe out and about on a 4 ft leash. No obedience (other than sit, down and stay) required,


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## Guest

Ben Colbert said:


> Jerry, I can't think of a single case where someone would send a PPD long enough to require a call off. Lets be serious.
> 
> A guy standing 10 feet away? Dog gets there before little Suzy can wander enter the picture or probably before you could even consider calling the dog off.
> 
> A guy 30 feet away? Shoots the dog before the call off and then Suzy and then you.
> 
> An actual PPD used for PPD for someone that is worried about their safety is used in the home and office and maybe out and about on a 4 ft leash. No obedience (other than sit, down and stay) required,


 
again define PPD and I guess while your at is sport dog, then after the many responses look at it again, nobody will agree what is what anyway, then try to answer the question with that in mind


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## Ben Colbert

PPD= A dog actually used in service as a personal protection dog. Not a police dog, not a "PPD" who is really just a hobby dog for someone.

Sport dog= Anything else. I think though we are talking about trialing dogs going for as many points as possible.


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## Guest

Ben Colbert said:


> PPD= A dog actually used in service as a personal protection dog. Not a police dog, not a "PPD" who is really just a hobby dog for someone.
> 
> Sport dog= Anything else. I think though we are talking about trialing dogs going for as many points as possible.


 
lack of detail, thought and seriousness


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## Ben Colbert

What? I think that cover everything? Besides, it's not my question.


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## Guest

Ben Colbert said:


> What? I think that cover everything? Besides, it's not my question.


 
yeah if you say so, but your PPD is my sport dog? hmmm what sport, training? PPD? what the hell in todays world legally can you do with a so called PPD? That bites of course, cause my PPD has stellar obediance and barks like hell!


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## Alison Grubb

Do they really have to be different dogs??

I used to think they did too.


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## Guest

Alison Grubb said:


> Do they really have to be different dogs??
> 
> I used to think they did too.


Thats my point, but so many people think so. Personally, I don't think there is place for a PPD, its just a bitesport dog that doesn't go to formal training. A good dog is a good dog period, its the training of said dog to tailor it to a specific sport. Doesn't mean one can't do the other. Just like most don't train Sch and PSA or KNPV. You set the dog up for success at the venue you in and don't try to confuse it.


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## Ben Colbert

Joby,

what the hell are you talking about?

If you are in concern for your safety and use your dog for personal protection then it's a PPD.

If you use your dog to trial or train it as a PPD but only because you like dogs that bite for real and you leave it at home in a kennel then it's a sport dog.

Easy peasy. 

If you like police dogs and you train your dog to be a police dog that doesn't make it a PSD. It makes it a hobby dog. Same for PPD. 

The question is which is harder to train and the answer is sport. An actual PPD (same as the rules for a PSD, it has to actually be used for PP) doesn't need to know more than how to bite.


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## Guest

Ben Colbert said:


> Joby,
> 
> what the hell are you talking about?
> 
> If you are in concern for your safety and use your dog for personal protection then it's a PPD.
> 
> If you use your dog to trial or train it as a PPD but only because you like dogs that bite for real and you leave it at home in a kennel then it's a sport dog.
> 
> Easy peasy.
> 
> If you like police dogs and you train your dog to be a police dog that doesn't make it a PSD. It makes it a hobby dog. Same for PPD.
> 
> The question is which is harder to train and the answer is sport. An actual PPD (same as the rules for a PSD, it has to actually be used for PP) doesn't need to know more than how to bite.


 
First of all its JODY not Joby

and sure, just as I posted, not everyone agrees on this and usually when posted you get to see what people really are like......have a good one


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## Alison Grubb

Sport dogs aren't hobbies?
Are you sure?

ETA: What a PPD *needs* to know is up to the owner/handler. I've known a few dogs that have performed well in their sports that will also bite for real.

It's weird to me that people assume a PPD is just some dog that isn't given enough training time and couldn't possibly end up on the trial field.


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## Ben Colbert

Jody Butler said:


> First of all its JODY not Joby
> 
> and sure, just as I posted, not everyone agrees on this and usually when posted you get to see what people really are like......have a good one


My sincere apologies. Who would have ever thought there would be two people with such totally unique and yet so similar names on one forum.

Also I have no idea what you mean by the rest.


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## Ben Colbert

Alison Grubb said:


> Sport dogs aren't hobbies?
> Are you sure?
> 
> ETA: What a PPD *needs* to know is up to the owner/handler. I've known a few dogs that have performed well in their sports that will also bite for real.



I guess this is for me.

Hell yeah sport dogs are hobby dogs. I was just being clear that so are PPD that are not used for PP. I think we all know of people that train dogs for PPD, they have dogs that bite and do bite work for no particular sport. But they don't use the dogs for PP. these are hobby dogs.

What I mean is the dog's primary responsibility isn't to protect the owner (i.e. the executive that buys a dog for protection).

The question is which is easier to train. Well lets strip the fluff. A PPD doesn't need a call off because PPD are not police dogs. You don't send them through an open field or across a quiet street for a bite.


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## Alison Grubb

So, if you take your sport dog and expose it to the hidden sleeve and a few "real life" scenarios does that mean that dog can no longer perform in sport? Or is it straight PPD? What if the dog is worked with no equipment and shows no hesitation when lunging for a man for real?

If the dog starts to keep an eye on people in close proximity to its handler (particularly off lead and several yards away) is that a sport dog or a PPD?

A dog that barks when people come near the property, is it only a sport dog or a PPD?

Or could the two dogs have similarities in temperament that lead them to display similar behaviors? Can they never be the same dog?

My point is simply that the PPD and sport dog can and, in some cases, are the same dog.
As for difficulty in training, I think that depends on the individual dog regardless of what he/she is used for. My young male (who is shaping up to be a fine PPD and sport dog) learns quite quickly and is one of the easiest dogs I have ever trained. He is intelligent and wants to please and has drive out the ass. I can teach him something and put him away for months and he still knows it when he comes out. It doesn't matter what I am training him for, it's him.


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## Ben Colbert

I hate the internet because it is like having two different languages.

If the reason you own the dog, if it's primary purpose in life is to protect you from threats then it is probably a PPD.

If you have a dog that you acquired in order to train, that you compete in sports, that spends most of its time in a crate when you are at work then it's a sport or hobby dog.

I have a dog that if you were to walk in to my house right now would put holes in your arm. He's a hobby/pet dog that will bite.

I know what you're getting at but like I said. I'm trying to answer the question.

And no, I don't think you can have both. If i have a dog that I teach building searches, I teach him to go out and bite on command, and I teach him drug detection then i have taught him the same behaviors as a PSD. That doesn't mean he is a PSD.

PPD and PSD are jobs. They aren't sometime jobs. That's what the dog exists for.


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## Alison Grubb

rick smith said:


> I guess my main question is :
> is it way harder to train a personal protection dog than a bite sport dog ?


I maintain that it depends on the dog.
Regardless of the handler's goals.

Some dogs are easier to train than others, period.


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## Alison Grubb

Ben Colbert said:


> PPD and PSD are jobs. They aren't sometime jobs. That's what the dog exists for.


I am not talking about PSD. I am not a Police Officer, therefore it is quite obvious that I don't own a PSD.

However, I know PPDs that can and have and will walk on the trial field.
And they know their job doesn't end with a ribbon.


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## Ben Colbert

Alison Grubb said:


> I am not talking about PSD. I am not a Police Officer, therefore it is quite obvious that I don't own a PSD.
> 
> However, I know PPDs that can and have and will walk on the trial field.
> And they know their job doesn't end with a ribbon.


Do these PPD's travel to work with the handler?


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## Alison Grubb

Ben Colbert said:


> Do these PPD's travel to work with the handler?


Can you clarify?
Are you asking if these dogs only work at one club? 
I can answer that with a resounding NO.


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## Ben Colbert

Alison Grubb said:


> Can you clarify?
> Are you asking if these dogs only work at one club?
> I can answer that with a resounding NO.


No, what I'm asking is if these dogs go with the handler when they go to their day jobs.


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## Alison Grubb

My dog can and does come with me to work when I want him to.
And to Wal-Mart and the gas station and the pharmacy and anywhere else I feel like taking him.

Why? Are they only PPD if they wear service vests and can and do go everywhere with you?


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## Ben Colbert

Alison Grubb said:


> My dog can and does come with me to work when I want him to.
> And to Wal-Mart and the gas station and the pharmacy and anywhere else I feel like taking him.
> 
> Why? Are they only PPD if they wear service vests and can and do go everywhere with you?


Yes. That's my point. A personal protection dog is a title of a dog whose JOB is to protect you. People purchase PPD because the believe their life is in danger without it and they take them everywhere. Or at least everywhere they can.

If your dog is an awesome dog who competes in a sport but would still protect you push come to shove well that's how it should be right?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Hey Alison, do you guys work on any scenario based training outside what you'd need for sport?


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## Alison Grubb

Ben Colbert said:


> Yes. That's my point. A personal protection dog is a title of a dog whose JOB is to protect you. People purchase PPD because the believe their life is in danger without it and they take them everywhere. Or at least everywhere they can.
> 
> If your dog is an awesome dog who competes in a sport but would still protect you push come to shove well that's how it should be right?


I think the disconnect between you and I is that you have this small box opinion of what a PPD can and should be. I think a PPD can be many things. They don't only belong to executives and they don't only belong to people who are actively fearing for their life. They can be dogs you keep around to help you if you ever need it, inside your home or out, when they are around. I guess I don't feel they have to be constant, because honestly when you think about it...the potential for danger is always there no matter who you are.

For me, the sport dog and a dog that will protect for real should be one and the same. But that's what I'm chasing. I'm also not looking to be the world champion of anything. So it's give and take I think.


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## Ben Colbert

The problem is what you are describing is not a PPD. It just isn't. Just because your dog may protect you doesn't make it a PPD.

I mean what in your mind is a PPD? Any dog that might bite an intruder?


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## Alison Grubb

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hey Alison, do you guys work on any scenario based training outside what you'd need for sport?


In a word...yes.
This is also dependent on the handler and what they want to accomplish.

If you bring your dog and only want to do Sch or any other sport you are not required to step outside of the confines of that sport. I'm interested in more than that though, so my dogs have and will continue to see much more than they will ever see on any trial field.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Alison Grubb said:


> In a word...yes.
> This is also dependent on the handler and what they want to accomplish.
> 
> If you bring your dog and only want to do Sch or any other sport you are not required to step outside of the confines of that sport. I'm interested in more than that though, so my dogs have and will continue to see much more than they will ever see on any trial field.


Sounds good.


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## Alison Grubb

Ben Colbert said:


> The problem is what you are describing is not a PPD. It just isn't. Just because your dog may protect you doesn't make it a PPD.
> 
> I mean what in your mind is a PPD? Any dog that might bite an intruder?


No.
A PPD to me is a dog that actively protects its handler. That has the ability to assess a situation and act. The dog that watches. But that must also be socially stable and be able to be in situations where other people are milling about or strange things are happening. A dog that will bite it needs to. For me, a big discriminator is if the dog will fire up and bite for real - no sleeve, no suit, no equipment but comes just as hard (if not harder).

I don't think you need to need 24/7 protection to say your dog is a PPD.

What I know, is there is difference between a dog that is alert and assesses situations and one that doesn't. A dog that understands people can be a threat and a dog that thinks it is just a game. A dog that gets into a dark alleyway and comes around a corner to a sketchy ass dude standing there and throws his chest out and his tail straight up and stares the dude down and a dog who doesn't think this is the field and the thought that he might need to bite never enters his mind. And I have owned both dogs.


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## Grant Cusworth

To the OP. Sport is way harder to teach than PPD. Bite/out/sit/heel/down... done for the PPD. There's no decision making on it's own unless it's working an estate and then it's simple, bite everyone you see but family/handler depending on the situation. For sport you need OB, agility, bitework, and all of it crisp, immediate, and correctly performed. A step further? It would be easier to train a PPD than to teach only an object guard to a dog, let alone the rest of a Ring III program. 

And IMO the dog is making decisions on his own frequently. Especially during the OG in French Ring. If you've ever trained it, you can see the moment the dog "gets it". They make a decision that the decoy is within the acceptable distance to the basket, and they decide to bite. The out is fairly reflex from repetition, but the dog again must decide to return to his object and not go into a guard/escort with the decoy. The defense of handler, I agree, no real decision made. The dog is taught to bite and the authorization for the bite is the contact/aggression by the decoy.

Grant


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## tracey schneider

the OP specifically used the words "professional personal protection" I think that is where the disconnect is coming. Imo that means dogs that are trained from day one to be sold as professional ppd from someone who does this as a main source of income. He also said "genetics" aside, specifically asking about the training method and he drew a distict line in the sand.


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## Alison Grubb

I missed the "professional"...perhaps cause it was only used once and in parenthesis while "personal protection" was used several times.

Trainers must be making a sweet buck keeping these "professional" protection dogs trained...cause we know the owners/handlers aren't doing it. :lol:


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## Alison Grubb

Alison Grubb said:


> I missed the "professional"...perhaps cause it was only used once and in parenthesis while "personal protection" was used several times.
> 
> Trainers must be making a sweet buck keeping these "professional" protection dogs trained...cause we know the owners/handlers aren't doing it. :lol:


As for genetics, they are never aside. But you already knew that. You can have dogs that bite that bite for different reasons and that can make them very different dogs.


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## tracey schneider

Alison Grubb said:


> I missed the "professional"...perhaps cause it was only used once and in parenthesis while "personal protection" was used several times.
> 
> Trainers must be making a sweet buck keeping these "professional" protection dogs trained...cause we know the owners/handlers aren't doing it. :lol:


I think that would be the hardest part, teaching the dog how to deal with their new stupid owners lol. I mean really most of them probably don't know the first thing about dogs...


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## Alison Grubb

tracey delin said:


> I think that would be the hardest part, teaching the dog how to deal with their new stupid owners lol. I mean really mist of Jheng probably don't know the first thing about dogs...


Nope, trust me it's teaching the owners/handlers how to deal with the dog that ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING.

But, on the other hand, the most satisfying thing is this world is seeing a handler and his/her dog bond and become a good (and sometimes great) working team.


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## will fernandez

professional protection dogs=titled sport dogs that I can sell for top dollar to a person that just wants another toy for their collection.


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## Dave Colborn

> is it way harder to train a personal protection dog than a bite sport dog ?



It's way easier. No standards, we all have them, according to me. PP Dogs are based on a perpetrators defensive threshold to dogs.


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## Ricardo Ashton

There's a lot of potential for discussion on this topic. But just to clear the air a PPD is not the same as a sport dog, and this is for more than a few reasons. But the main reason is that a PPD has to be able to protect the handler from an attacker/s, and be able to discern a potential attacker from a safe distance away, as well as to be trained to do a few other things, such as guarding/holding an assailant, property search, escorting an assailant and, apprehension of a fleeing assailant. These are all trainable tasks that a PP dog needs to learn to do and be able to do effectively and with conviction. He would also need to be controllable so OB is a factor, and somewhat civil, but not social. Otherwise it would be a waste of time and effort.

Some people are of the belief that a PPD is strictly for "personal" protection. Meaning the dog is there to protect the owner/handler within the length of the leash. That, IMO, is blindly limiting the potential effective use of such a dog, and setting oneself up to be killed and the dog to be proven useless. What happens if your attacker is waiting inside your house/business as you enter, and the attacker is concealed or on a stairway about 20-25 feet and armed with a gun or, or even on the other side of the room behind a door? You enter the room with your dog, the assailant steps out & shoots you, then the dog.(I doubt he would be there for the dog, thats why the handler gets killed *first*) It would be easier(and safer) for the the handler/owner to send the dog in for a search.

In the end, we're talking about two entirely different types of work, with the end result being the creation of two completely different dogs from the perspective of the way each dog thinks. The PPD would need to develop a more complex personality/method of thinking to enable it to function effectively in its significantly more complex job, as opposed to a sport dog that may only need to focus on a handler and his commands.
JMO gained by experience.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Ricardo Ashton said:


> There's a lot of potential for discussion on this topic. But just to clear the air a PPD is not the same as a sport dog, and this is for more than a few reasons. But the main reason is that a PPD has to be able to protect the handler from an attacker/s, and be able to discern a potential attacker from a safe distance away, as well as to be trained to do a few other things, such as guarding/holding an assailant, property search, escorting an assailant and, *apprehension of a fleeing assailant*. These are all trainable tasks that a PP dog needs to learn to do and be able to do effectively and with conviction. He would also need to be controllable so OB is a factor, and somewhat civil, but *not social*. Otherwise it would be a waste of time and effort.


I'm not sure the law would be on your side if you sent your dog after someone who was actively running away...I come from a martial arts background and it's not usually considered a good idea to actively go after someone who has now left you alone once you have defended yourself. YMMV. And why does being social preclude a dog from being a PPD? Hard to take your personal protection dog anywhere to protect you if they can't be in public. They also become more of a liability than they are probably worth at that point. CCW is probably a better idea. JMHO from a non-PPD person.


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## Bob Scott

Sport or PPD you've got nothing without control. 
Uncontrollable sport dog = no points.
Uncontrollable PPD = junkyard dog on a leash.
Control comes from training. Training depends on the individual dog. 
You don't need a gun in sport. 
If you have a genuine need for a PPD then you need a gun.


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## Rashae Lamar

Honestly eveyone makes a great point but the only limitation each does has is the owner/handler, if the owner wants the dog on a 4ft leash then thats what they use. I can use my MWD ( military working dog ) as both. He's strong enough to do sport and social enough to walk around people and be ppd. The drives and training should be the same for any dog that does bite work.

" THe only limitation anything has is the owner "


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## Joby Becker

Ben Colbert said:


> I guess this is for me.
> 
> Hell yeah sport dogs are hobby dogs. I was just being clear that so are PPD that are not used for PP. I think we all know of people that train dogs for PPD, they have dogs that bite and do bite work for no particular sport. But they don't use the dogs for PP. these are hobby dogs.
> 
> What I mean is the dog's primary responsibility isn't to protect the owner (i.e. the executive that buys a dog for protection).
> 
> The question is which is easier to train. Well lets strip the fluff. A PPD doesn't need a call off because PPD are not police dogs. You don't send them through an open field or across a quiet street for a bite.


I'll bite Ben...

Do you think a PPD is being consistently used in its PPD function? or is it just a dog that may or may not actually protect you if you actually ever need it, primarily used as a deterrent, just like any other type of dog?

The amount of training varies greatly, as do the dogs. If the dog NEVER bites anyone in its lifetime, is it a PPD? 

What is the difference between a Sport and a PPD, that never bites anyone?

It is all a hobby...A PPD is a mindset...you intend to put your dog in front of you, and hope he will do what you think he will do. There are never any guarantees...

I have had the pleasure of a coupla dogs getting bites, and a few people whos dogs I have trained, have also bitten people when called upon...

I have also had some dogs that I have worked with in training, that the handlers thought were PPD, and the dogs did not perform...

I am sure this scenario is not rare, people get a puppy to train for PPD, becuase they want a dog to protect them, and they take the dog to a trainer...as a pup or an adult...the trainer assesses and works with the dog, and may or may not tell the people what they "think" the dogs limitations are...and it is not rare that a trainer may tell someone what he feels the dogs potential is, which may be lacking, and the owners decide to keep the dog becuase it is a pet, and they love it...just like many sport handlers do...so they continue to train it, as a hobby. It is an activity, they tell their friends the dog is in PPD training, and is a PPD. They convince themselves they have a PPD dog, and they actually do, unless the rare occasion when a bite is necessary happens, and the dog does not bite, then they don't.

It is all a hobby, unless the dog actually gets to engage someone, which may never happen, if it does then it is real...if it doesn't, then it is a hobby, something to do, to get some piece of mind, which may or may not be wise to rely on....

I have had dogs that I knew would bite someone, ok, I THOUGHT they would bite someone, and was lucky enough to have them do so when called upon. Its all training and hobby, unless it happens...

I do also know a guy with a dog I worked with that sent his dog about 40 yards down an alley, on a guy that stole some power tools out of his garage, and the dog performed...that is a judgement call for sure...luckily it worked out for him, and the guy took off, after he outed the dog, and did not call the cops...

There are no guarantees if you actually let your dog bite someone, regardless of the circumstances...does anyone know, or find out the dog is trained? do you play it off like you had no idea the dog would bite? If you do admit it is trained, and shit goes to court, you better damn well be able to demonstrate fantastic control on the dog, and a good out...otherwise you are surely fukked, and still might be anyway...

I know a few people whos dogs have bitten people, who luckily have escaped the courts, no charges, no lawsuits...but there is no guarantee...standard is I believe, the same as shooting someone in most places, legally..you better be able to say your life was in danger....

People have guns for protection...take shooting classes and shoot regularly, provides a piece of mind...a hobby...until they actually shoot someone...how common is that? and if the gun was only used as a deterrent, ...and no shots are fired..technically it did not matter if it was loaded...or might have jammed..or you know how to shoot it....just like a PPD...

just my .02...


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## Ricardo Ashton

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm not sure the law would be on your side if you sent your dog after someone who was actively running away...


The law tends to turn a blind eye if a dog is sent to stop someone from fleeing if they just committed a serious crime, such as murder, rape or arson.



And why does being social preclude a dog from being a PPD?[/QUOTE said:


> There is a significant difference between social and civil. A social dog may see most people as a potential friend or foe. A civil dog sees all people as a potential threat, he just waits for the person to prove him right.


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## Joby Becker

Riddle me this...

you have 2 people...both with PPD....

#1 is a person who has a crapper X breed dog with crappy training. Thinks he has a PPD..

#2 has a high quality working dog from X lines...and trains its ass off, with good trainers. Thinks he has a PPD..

Both dogs do a good job as a deterrence, good enough that they never ever are called upon to bite anyone...

both people have a PPD in there minds, who is right? who is wrong??


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## rick smith

Appreciate all the interesting responses.
fwiw, I phrased my OP with the T/F options because i know the subject can quickly go off in a lot of directions and was trying to be clear where I was starting from. occasionally threads wander OT 

anyway I haven't ever observed this type of dog and i assume they are mostly trained and sold in third world areas with hi crime and weak law enforcement support, so for the most part, that should rule out the usa for usage but not for training, right ?

regarding the genetics part : 1. wanted to keep it out since i wasn't considering dogs who bite for the wrong reasons as opposed to to dogs who are confident and clear enuff to bite when told to and not bite in ANY other situations. 2. don't accept it's "all genetics" since i think this type of dog needs MAJOR scenario based training regardless of the genetics it is born with

I do agree a sport dog competing requires a lot more TIME and effort to fine tune performance to maximize points in all areas of the sport. And i did use the word "professional" to distinguish between a trained sport dog on a leash in a social or public environment who will never hesitate to engage on command. that type of dog would make a very acceptable triple purpose (pet/protector/competitor) dog too imo

I know there are no clear standards for "personal protection dogs", but i was definitely referring to a dog who can work OFF LEAD to perform that job. 
maybe they doesn't exist in the real world and only appear on fancy web sites. so If you have one of those sites, or know someone that does, now is your chance to prove it is real 
- but the way i asked it would seem to be MUCH harder to train (NOT talking about a dog on a short lead that will bite on command - yes, that is much simpler to train)
....when i see one that can do it i guess i'll believe it, and i've never seen anyone here submit vids that comes close to the type of personal protection dog i described.
**plus if it was so easy i think millions of owners would want that type of dog whether they were also competing with it or not

re: If i have a dog that I teach building searches, I teach him to go out and bite on command, and I teach him drug detection then i have taught him the same behaviors as a PSD. That doesn't mean he is a PSD."
- i disagree completely. if you trained him to do PSD work properly he IS a PSD....just unemployed; so sell him and give him a chance to get his "badge" and earn some recognition 

re: "And IMO the dog is making decisions on his own frequently. Especially during the OG in French Ring. If you've ever trained it, you can see the moment the dog "gets it". They make a decision that the decoy is within the acceptable distance to the basket, and they decide to bite."
- i understand what you mean when they "get it".....i disagree it's a decision per se.....they have been corrected when the engage at an unacceptable distance and have been conditioned to associate the min distance that is allowable for them to get their bite (reward)....more like a conditioned trigger than a mental decision they are considering in their canine brain.....the distance limits can be more confusing as compared to simple motion towards the handler and body contact in an escort

the response that a titled dog also equals a PPD for rich people with toys is interesting.....sure that happens; curious how often it happens and would you consider it ethical to sell a dog you titled to that kind of idiot ? 

Joby seems to have done a lot of work in this area ....where are you Jobe ??? am i describing a dog that doesn't exist ??


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## rick smith

re: "#1 is a person who has a crapper X breed dog with crappy training. Thinks he has a PPD..

#2 has a high quality working dog from X lines...and trains its ass off, with good trainers. Thinks he has a PPD..

neither falls into the category of dog in the OP......but :

for #1 and # 2 
it matters what the person has in their mind and it is the job of a trainer to point out when they are wrong
- i've had DOZENS of owners tell me their (crapper/resource guarding spoiled brat) dog is "protective"...... most see the light with some further demos of why it isn't 

#1 is probably lacking some basic knowledge
#2 is probably engaging in wishful thinking based on their "bond" with their dog and effort they have put into it which unfortunately was not PPD work imo

so neither has the PPD i am talking about 
but does that mean they really don't exist and can't be trained to do it ?


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## rick smith

sorry 
- my answer to the riddle is both are wrong 

maybe the differences between guarding and protecting are too complicated for a canine brain to actually comprehend ?


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> #2 is probably engaging in wishful thinking based on their "bond" with their dog *and effort they have put into it which unfortunately was not PPD work imo*



was it not? how can we tell? what is PPD work? in your opinion...

it means they exist in our minds, and can be trained to do it, but if they never have to, then you have no idea if the dog or the training was really effective...

I know this is a side topic/tangent, sorry about that in advance..


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> sorry
> - my answer to the riddle is both are wrong
> 
> maybe the differences between guarding and protecting are too complicated for a canine brain to actually comprehend ?


nah...I say those differences can be understood...although similar in some ways I guess...but I think of guarding as a dog acting on its own..

I will go back and read your OP...and think about it and take a stab...sorry..Ben and JoDy's debate caught my interest first...


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## rick smith

no problem with the side topic/tangent ... 
that happens "occasionally" on this forum 

i was making the assumption that a sport dog owner who spends the majority of their time at a club would not spend much time on the scenario driven exercises which i think would be required to train and PROOF a true personal protection dog......not that it couldn't be PPD trained also, just that the sport training would not prepare it properly, hence it could not be considered also a PPD
...OG is hard enough and that is only distance critical.....much more involved for getting a dog to recognize and engage a threat since they come in a lot more different ways

anyway, when i was looking for breeders outside of Japan a few years ago i came across a few of these "professional protection dog" sites... all claimed to be all inclusive breeders/trainers
lots of hype, supposedly refs were available, lots of postcard pics and descriptions of intensive training based on their sound clear headed breeding stock and experienced trainers and training facilities, etc etc

when i get time i'll try to find em again and let their words do the talking rather than mine. i know there was a "mega buck PPD" thread awhile back but i never saw much meat in it regarding PPD's

but wasn't looking for that type dog, all were expensive, and all seemed over hyped. especially the part about how the dogs could perform off lead, in a family environment.....i.e. - the "perfect" pet and protector for a paranoid rich owner

do any of you have any vids of a dog performing PPD work off lead in a family or "estate" environment ?
- my impression is you can find anything on youtube if you spend enuff time looking, but i am very lazy that way


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> I guess my main question is :
> is it way harder to train a personal protection dog than a bite sport dog ?


depends on the dog and what you consider a PPD is...



> never done it so it's all a wag ... but i have a fair idea idea of how you would have to "get there" and seems like it would be via a different route than the bite sport clubs ... true ?


depends on the dog..and its character and temperament...and the people involved...

I worked a DS for 2 yrs, for "sport", and PPD (I think) I did all of the basic foundation..the dog was used in 2 real life events, and put holes in people, was hit with a club, and did not quit.

This dog is still a sport dog, titled in FR, MR, PSA (all 1's), has a PD1 title, competes in irondog international(is IDT5 and IDT3), has a BH in SCH...and has competed in numerous PP tournaments (sport pp..LOL) and pretty much dominated the local scene.mostly first place finishes, a few second place, the dog will maybe get his FR2 later today....

The only thing I did differently with this dog, than my sport only trainer friends would do was this:

The intensity of the dogs biting was not up to snuff when I started working the dog at 14 months or so..was worked in all 100% prey, no real opposition...the person told me she wanted to do sport, but also wanted a dog that could "possibly" be used for PP as well...The PP aspect was very important to her, possibly even more so than the interest in sport..

so I worked the dog at night on a long treelined path, with basic defense techniques..over period of 4-5 sessions..then posted the dog out once..worked him gradually, give and take, until I was close enough to let him bite...dog won accordingly during all this...

then we went back to what most sport people I know would do...dogs intensity was WAYY up...but dog was still clear and trusting...(stable balanced dog) mixed in some civil and prey guarding...

then I made sure to encourage the dog to find me in the suit, and let him know that he was hurting me...which he was for the most part...and the dog grew very fond of bruising and lumping me up in the suit...as opposed to just biting the suit...

then we did some hidden equipment biting, in defense first, then in prey..

then the dog was worked in a muzzle a time or two on person in street clothes..both in defense...and on passive person...dog engaged and fought both people pretty well...

in addition to training the sport excercises, the dog was also scenario trained for PP...

I know some of what we did on the PP side..has made sport work more difficult for the dog and its handler, on top of the handler not focusing on one thing at a time..(which I did tell her to do) and also know that the real life bites had a negative impact on the sport side of things...but a positive effect on the PP things..

all I can say is the dog protected her, the dog does decent sport work, if left to his own devices he will fire up immediately if given a hairy eyeball, or other "technique" you might use to arouse the dogs suspicion/ or challenge it, it will bark at the door or window if someone tries to get it, has bitten inside the home for real, and outside, and will fire up on command on passive person if directed to, and will engage in a muzzle on passive person if told to, and will fight...will bite sleeve, hidden, or suit..will not back down on a tie out under normal training pressure..

so who the hell knows what the difference is...really...or which is "harder"

may still be way off topic...sorry if it is..

I think most executive PP dogs are probably not trained to the extent of what I would like...but who knows if they are...some probably are...


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## rick smith

re: "so who the hell knows what the difference is...really...or which is "harder"
well, what you just wrote shows a lot of the differences, and i think we'd agree that AFTER you have a stable dog to start with, getting the PPD part solid takes some imaginative thinking and scenario driven training that goes way beyond what a club will provide in that area

the only problem i see, which could be a big one, depending on the trainer would be to keep the dog stable while it is being "trained" to engage in a variety of different situations
- and "engaging" should involve a lot of B/H types reactions, which in many situations would be all the engagement necessary
- i worked with a lady who had a gsd ands she felt she needed some "protection" training for it....i told her i was not the guy for that but i did work a LOT with her on getting the dog to bark on command and it made her feel much more confident when she was out alone.....the dog was VERY safe and would NOT bite. her command was totally a play behavior to that dog  
fwiw, i was going on the premise that if you can turn a switch and make your dog bark vigorously, most people will assume the next move will be a bite if they don't move off......i'm not sure if all sport dogs would be able to do that anywhere/anyplace/anytime

....of course u wouldn't want a kid with a booger in their nose or playing godzilla to trigger the same kind of engagement that a stink eye would from a real threat
- but it seems to me it is a lot easier for a dog to recognize and respond to decoy aggression on a field than in a public or private setting
- which would also make me feel a true TRAINED PPD would need some VERY stable genetics in its makeup, but still need a lot of training to use those genetics safely.....stability rather than just confidence


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## rick smith

maybe i wasn't clear about the gsd "bark" command .... it would tug very well and loved it, but the bark command was NEVER rewarded with a bite or a tug as a sport dog is generally conditioned

maybe bad training and for sure not PPD training, but "worked for her" and she felt safer and more protected


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> re: "so who the hell knows what the difference is...really...or which is "harder"
> well, what you just wrote shows a lot of the differences, and i think we'd agree that AFTER you have a stable dog to start with, getting the PPD part solid takes some imaginative thinking and scenario driven training that goes way beyond what a club will provide in that area
> 
> the only problem i see, which could be a big one, depending on the trainer would be to keep the dog stable while it is being "trained" to engage in a variety of different situations
> - and "engaging" should involve a lot of B/H types reactions, which in many situations would be all the engagement necessary
> - i worked with a lady who had a gsd ands she felt she needed some "protection" training for it....i told her i was not the guy for that but i did work a LOT with her on getting the dog to bark on command and it made her feel much more confident when she was out alone.....the dog was VERY safe and would NOT bite. her command was totally a play behavior to that dog
> fwiw, i was going on the premise that if you can turn a switch and make your dog bark vigorously, most people will assume the next move will be a bite if they don't move off......i'm not sure if all sport dogs would be able to do that anywhere/anyplace/anytime
> 
> ....of course u wouldn't want a kid with a booger in their nose or playing godzilla to trigger the same kind of engagement that a stink eye would from a real threat
> - but it seems to me it is a lot easier for a dog to recognize and respond to decoy aggression on a field than in a public or private setting
> - which would also make me feel a true TRAINED PPD would need some VERY stable genetics in its makeup, but still need a lot of training to use those genetics safely.....stability rather than just confidence


FOR ARGUMENTS SAKE...

eh....ppd does not have to be very "stable" or social in my opinion in reality.for some people...that stuff is always nice to have, again for some people....but a non-social dog that would like to do nothing more than bite someone, can still be effective PP dog, if the control work, and handling are there...for instance for a single person or couple with no children and kids coming over all the time...I have been to people homes where the dog would love to bite me, but just sits there staring at me instead...doesnt make you feel welcome, but I havent gotten bit yet either..

the problem lies with the fact that there is no guideline, it is all opinion and preference...what you think is important others may not...you think barking is important, it could be...I like it...but I think verbally warning someone would work just as good...and that booger picking kid still doesnt get barked at, because the dog is under control...and biting upon entry of my home with no barking is acceptable to me in certain living situations...some dogs like to bark, some are almost impossible to get barking...others want to bite first without barking...

everything is variable to the dog and situation...

even in sports...some people like to work defense in certain things and dogs, others are happy with a prey locked super nerve dog. 

For me one of the thing I will always do for "pp" training is work the dog in all manners of environments...in the home, in the car, in public, inside buildings, in the woods, on a field, at a park, at night, in the rain, in the snow..and at some point the dog has to get passed requiring a suit or sleeve, and someone agitating and stimulating it, as in normal training...

cant pinpoint it, we'll get 100 different MUST DO's for a PP from 100 different people. as is evident by how everyone says a PP dog has to do this or it has to do that...all a pp dog has to do in my opinion is bite who you tell it to, and not bite who you do not tell it to...most dogs are gonna for sure not be friendly to someone trying to get into your home or car, and at night...and if they are friendly in those situations, and you dont like it, you train them to not be friendly..much better if dog has that suspicion already/ or is territorial or whatever the case is, for me....but my likes may not be someone elses....

Even if the training is done correctly, it does not guarantee a successful outcome....PSD do not always bite, or perform well on their first or even second bite on the street, how many times does a PP get tested in REALITY? in its lifetime...I am not talking about barking or deterring, I am talking about biting a person...


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> maybe i wasn't clear about the gsd "bark" command .... it would tug very well and loved it, but the bark command was NEVER rewarded with a bite or a tug as a sport dog is generally conditioned
> 
> maybe bad training and for sure not PPD training, but "worked for her" and she felt safer and more protected


 could still easily reward it with a bite..or defensive retreat...or a rag or a tug...
youd be suprised at what some guys can do with a rag or a tug..and it would be far different from what you would think of as sport...


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## Ben Thompson

I know how to get a live bite. Contact those guys from those Jackass movies. They will do it.


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## Hans Akerbakk

I worked 3 dogs from a elite protection company some military guy with great european contacts that retrains dogs from various backgrounds and retrains them for protection, together they cost $25000 for the new owner .
I wore a french ring suit and posed no threat as the owner wanted to see if the dogs bite. Dog one ph1 ,put stick in right hand and raised it dog bit left upperarm no problem just like knpv dog should. Second dog came with video of its Belgium ring 3 trial and training, this dog barely bit the suit frontal , I glanced at his eye and he came off. This was nothing like what I was expecting. Third they said was the most aggressive in the yard ,it basically hid behind them and barked.
For me the best dogs are sport dogs they are the only ones that are tested over and over with differant locations and decoys.
I like that I train in French ring sport,it's a complex sport and I don't have to worry about all this real dog stuff.


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## Brian Anderson

Hans Akerbakk said:


> I worked 3 dogs from a elite protection company some military guy with great european contacts that retrains dogs from various backgrounds and retrains them for protection, together they cost $25000 for the new owner .
> I wore a french ring suit and posed no threat as the owner wanted to see if the dogs bite. Dog one ph1 ,put stick in right hand and raised it dog bit left upperarm no problem just like knpv dog should. Second dog came with video of its Belgium ring 3 trial and training, this dog barely bit the suit frontal , I glanced at his eye and he came off. This was nothing like what I was expecting. Third they said was the most aggressive in the yard ,it basically hid behind them and barked.
> For me the best dogs are sport dogs they are the only ones that are tested over and over with differant locations and decoys.
> I like that I train in French ring sport,it's a complex sport and I don't have to worry about all this real dog stuff.


sounds like that outfit has some shitbag dogs to me. How often does your french ring dog see defensive drive? Just curious


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## rick smith

Hans 
what's the name of this elite protection company ???
or is it "classified", 
....and anyone who works their dogs is sworn to secrecy ?? 

do you do more decoy work or handler work ?


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## Martine Loots

A lot of expensive so called "PPD" on flashy websites are sports wash outs...

"PPD" is a word that was invented as a marketing tool to take money out of the pockets of rich people without any knowledge of dogs...
A good dog will protect you and doesn't need any training to do this so this can perfectly be your sport dog if he has the quality and the heart.


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## Adam Swilling

Martine Loots said:


> A good dog will protect you and doesn't need any training to do this so this can perfectly be your sport dog if he has the quality and the heart.


 Where have I heard that? Hmmm....


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## Adam Swilling

To do it correctly they can both be difficult to train. But in my opinion, training for sport is more difficult. Precision counts in sport more than PPD. The truth is the odds of a person EVER using a PPD is slim to none. I'm sure most of us can think of the EXCEPTION (I can too), but that's true with everything. I've come to learn that, at least on an internet forum, everyone defines things differently, thus the reason why every thread on here has at least 6 people saying "Define this" or "define that". 

As far as PP goes, I think Joby is right:it's all opinion and preference. I suppose the same is true for dogs used for bite sport. It can ALL be made as difficult or easy as the trainer's knowledge base and ego will allow. 

Martine brought up a good point. Most dogs advertised as PPD are sport washouts. It's usually the last one or two pups for sale in a litter that are advertised "Will make a great personal protection dog". And I'm like most people; when I read that I automatically think the pup is lacking something the others weren't.


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## Brian Young

Hey Adam, stir that pot.


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## Brian Young

Hey Adam , stir that pot


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## Adam Swilling

Brian Young said:


> Hey Adam , stir that pot


 LOL! Who? Me? Stir a pot? Well, I never!! About time you dragged your dead butt off the field and got on here, you need it. You might learn how to train some of those crappers you own LOL.You can learn all you need to know from the internet. And before anyone thinks I'm ripping this guy, I am. But, in my defense, he and I have been training together for a good while now. I don't like him or his dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano

Martine Loots said:


> A lot of expensive so called "PPD" on flashy websites are sports wash outs...
> 
> "PPD" is a word that was invented as a marketing tool to take money out of the pockets of rich people without any knowledge of dogs...
> A good dog will protect you and doesn't need any training to do this so this can perfectly be your sport dog if he has the quality and the heart.



YES !!!!!!!!!!
I'd just add MOST if not ALL PPD dogs are over priced, under trained, sport wash outs or didn't have the nerve to do sport in the first place.


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## Joby Becker

I will diverge from the norm, as 90% of my experience is with PP and 10% sport and PSD...

The PP dogs that I know are not sport washouts, most are bought as pups along with a small percentage of adults, and 80% of the people I know with "PP" have absolutely no interest in sports...

I will also say the term PP was not coined as a marketing tool, but is a valid function...piece of mind (whether a good bet or not).

I bred my dog (an Arko daughter) to Carlos...and got many calls for people interested in getting a good personal protection dog, if that litter took, they would NOT be sport washouts, they would be puppies bought for the specific purpose of PP.

I can agree that a small percentage of dogs will protect without training, I like to get my hands on that type of dog and train it...in the big scope those dogs are rare, in pockets of good dogs, they are more common.

I also agree that with the vendors selling PP dogs as trained adults, some of those may be sport or PSD washouts..but not all...

I would take a sport washout for a PP dog, if he was washed out because he could not play the game as well as others, and took shit a little to seriously or personal at times...

The vast majority of PP dogs are bought as puppies, by people with ZERO interest in sports, who can say if their dogs could do sport or not...I do agree that where offbreeds are concerned most are not good for sport, but I also would not say they were "washouts"...

If I by a pup from any litter advertised on here, and get a good pup, and train it for PP...and not sport...how is that a washout??


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## Hans Akerbakk

Martine is correct this elite ppd company has a flashy web site and hundreds of sales.
was the Belgium ring dog fried by the retraining, or a wash that could only be titled on its own field with his own decoys who knows.
Rick ,I've no interest in naming the company .
Brian ,last time my dog saw defense drive was when I was cut off in traffic =P~
Original question,which dogs are better trained ?
Sport dogs pick any venue they are all better trained .
ppd there is to many varibles .
What is the required standard for a ppd to preform and are there any levels to guage the dogs ability?
Rick, my bio I have been getting bite by dogs since 96, ring since 97, retired level 2 decoy 2008, still train and help a few police dog handlers recertify when they show up and ask.


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## Joby Becker

forget the training and adult dogs..

If I breed a good litter of puppies, and some people buy them for sport and others buy them for protection...are the dogs different quality? I agree the training can vary...but the dogs would not be crappier if they did not do sport work..


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## Joby Becker

logic is a bitch ain't it?


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## Shane Woodlief

Ok here is my question - What do you do with a PPD? Honestly what do you do with them? Do you take them to the grocery store, restaurants, shopping centers, football game or church (hahahaha) - you know all the places that you could in fact need protection? 

No you leave them at home - so they are not really Personal Protection Dogs - they are Home Protection Dogs! Get a big, blocky dog that barks and put a big gold chain around the neck of the dog with car emblem on it  . That will take care of most issues. The ones who are not frightened off will shoot the dog and do what ever else. 

Joby your Arko/Carlos pup would have eaten their owners not protected them  hahahahaha


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## Hans Akerbakk

Why I like sport is I have a venue to test my training .
As a decoy I can train bite targets and counters to decoy moves,with no trial I can only imagine them working.
One dog I decoyed from pup to ring 3 first leg he was a crapper.
started decoying the dog from under a lawn chair.
Told handler to send it back, but to attached so we trained.
I put counters for everything,the dog I think he saw dead people it was alot to deal with.
Final trial stick issues were exposed, but the bandaids and duct tape hung on in the escort and the gaurd from behind of course.
So he is a washout and I can polish up a p.o.s. he can fake a protection routine only problem integrity so he is a pet.
The title does not make a dog breedable it is the knowledge gained about the dog that makes it breedable.
How do you test a dog with no venue?


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## rick smith

Hans :
i'm not questioning your EXPERIENCE !
i'm questioning why you have no interest in naming the company you worked for 
- YOU are the one who brought the company up 
- YOU are the only one that has a reason to hide it's identity

re: "Martine is correct this elite ppd company has a flashy web site and hundreds of sales.
was the Belgium ring dog fried by the retraining, or a wash that could only be titled on its own field with his own decoys who knows.
Rick ,I've no interest in naming the company ."

Hans; once again - you SHOULD have an interest if they are a reputable company and were proud of their training you did for them, and would probably only want to with hold the name if they are less than that - secrecy is ridiculous 
..... protection dog training companies should not be a shadow world on a "need to know" basis for christ's sakes !
- no brainer .... by having a web site means they WANT the world to know their name !!!

- and how would you know if Martine is "correct" about "flashy web sites" ????? do you know if her kennel sold "wash outs" to these types of companies ?......maybe her kennel has no wash outs ? ...lol ..... she's already said her kennel has sold "wash outs" for LEO work  ....only she would know right ? let her speak for herself, which she has ,,,, in one short phrase 
- i suspect you're not so proud of em but since they paid you ....... etc 
.....not a good reason if true, even tho it's your call to keep the name a secret if you so desire 

i don't know about anyone else, but for me it gets OLD hearing "a good sport dog would be a naturally great PPD too", and then have the same people say there is no such thing as a PPD because they're just washed out sport dogs, and that it's just a label ](*,)](*,)

for anyone who can read that WASN'T the purpose of my OP 

like i said, i will try and find some "flashy sites" when my real life allows....will you then admit if one of them was who you worked for if i name it first, Hans ??


----------



## Joby Becker

Shane Woodlief said:


> Ok here is my question - What do you do with a PPD? Honestly what do you do with them? Do you take them to the grocery store, restaurants, shopping centers, football game or church (hahahaha) - you know all the places that you could in fact need protection?
> 
> No you leave them at home - so they are not really Personal Protection Dogs - they are Home Protection Dogs! Get a big, blocky dog that barks and put a big gold chain around the neck of the dog with car emblem on it  . That will take care of most issues. * The ones who are not frightened off will shoot the dog and do what ever else.*


you do what you want with them...as they are your pet...

I know a few dogs that have bitten people, none have ever been shot at, or shot...not everyone carries guns...and not everyone that carries a gun is prepared to use it..

Funny story...(true) one night I was getting ready to take my dog for a walk at about 1 am, cause that was a safe time to walk the dog, as far as loose dogs were concerned...

I had a roomie that was jerk, and screwed some guys girl,,,some dudes (and a chick) came over to kick the door in and put a hurting on him...the dog got involved, 2 guys got bitten and they all scattered...but that is not the story here...

SO I hooked up the dog and was getting ready to leave to go on a walk, about a month or so after that incident...and I saw a car pull off onto the side of my yard, and also saw a guy get out, and start heading down my fenceline, in my yard...I left out the side door and basically went straight at him...he opted to run back to the car...I caught up to the car before they could get it started and decided to head to the driver's side, which was closest to me, instead of going around to the passenger side where the guy was climbing in...

I tried to open the car door, and the guy pulled it shut and locked it, the dog was all over his window, which was partly down... he started the car and took off, literally drove right through my yard..

That is not the end of the story...About a year later I was at a local bar and started talking to a guy...topic got into dogs somehow, usually does with me...he then said I looked familiar..and something clicked in his head and asked me if I lived on the corner of such and such... I said yes...he asked me if I had a crazy dog, I said I did have some dogs yes...he told me that he almost shot me about a year ago..he told me that he was with a friend of his to come to my house and give the guy I was living with a beatdown, that he was in the car as "backup" and the other guy was gonna go through my roomie's open bedrom window and jump him while he was sleeping. He told me that the other guy had a gun, and that he also had a gun in the car, and that they almost shot me that night..

...I told him that I didn't remember them even coming close to shooting me...he then confessed to me that they were both scared shitless, and happy to escape...and that I was a crazy mofo, with a crazy dog...he did ask me if the dog woulda bit him....I told him in so many words he was damn lucky he got away....shook his head...and then he bought me a shot..no bullshit....

It is my belief that most people that carry guns that are bad people, use guns for intimidation, that not many are prepared to use those guns...not that I want to test that theory, but I believe it is true...

When I did have "PP" dogs, I always said that anyone that tries to mess with my property, my house, or me if the dog was with me... better have a gun, and they better be ready to use it, and use it quickly...to protect THEMSELVES...because they are gonna need it....

Really? Restaurants? Shopping Centers? Football Games? Church???

Do you take your gun to all those places? Or do you mostly keep it at home? 

So it appears there is just the usual disagreement on whether a dog is a good form of protection or not, to me...regardless of the stereotyping of the people who may want a protection dog, the quality of their dogs, or their training abilities...

Call em what you want to LOL...

I do know several people that take their dogs with them almost everywhere they can get away with it...or at least have them in the car with them...I do not know many people that have let their dogs bite someone out in public though..a couple, for sure. One out in a field, one by lake michigan, and one in a bar fight...her bf was getting pummeled by 3-4 dudes, he was black in a ******* bar, and fight broke out... the bouncer was also taking part in the fight, so no help there...so she snuck off to the parking lot and got her dog...brought him into the bar..he bit 2 guys, and the fight was over..and they left...better than shooting someone I think...

My current dog, just to be clear is neither a personal protection dog, nor a home protection dog, just dont tell her that...

Amanda Caldron's dog has a couple live bites as well...

here is a video...with 2 dogs in it...both of these dogs have live bites, the mal has a couple, including one of the girls ex-bf that decided he was gonna try to abuse her... the other dog is a pitbull X Dobie my friend bred and is the dog that bit 2 guys in a bar...watch the takedown..the dog wrestles the decoy down to the ground...not a good place to be with that dog at all either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxNYWR-Dutc

not a super duper sport dog, but I had him chewing on the back of my neck on the ground before, when I fell down and the handler got scared for my safety and decided to out the dirty bastard from about 50 ft away with no line or ecollar on him, that was NOT one of her brightest moments..she said she did it cause she thought I might get hurt...LOL...and let me just say it was pretty fukking scary...that dog has also bitten more guys in the balls than any dog I know...one guy at a PP event was gonna wear scratch pants only and a sleeve...(the dog has bitten guys in the scratch pants before)..I told him NO WAY, and spoke to the organizers, said the guy needed to suit up, that the dog was fairly dangerous...becuase he does not always take what you offer him..he opted to suit up...right before the girl went out with the dog, I told the decoy, he was gonna find out why he needed the suit in about 10 seconds...she got on the field, he was the decoy for the first scenario...he jumped out of hiding, she sent the dog, he presented his arm, and the dog bit him straight in the crotch...Can-Am suit...no crotch protector..he started screaming...he left the field immediately after she outed the dog..I followed him into the bathroom to see if he was ok, and he came out of the stall with blood all over his hand...is that dog a good sport dog? no...definately not...he is a defensive dirty mofo that wants to hurt someone...but he is a social stable dog, and I can get in the car with him right after bitework, which most people that think they know the dog would not believe...he is a stable dog, but doesn't play games...his grip is NOT calm, but when he is trying to chew you up by trying to get up under the jacket, or chewing on your balls...or biting you in real life..you are not really thinking about that...I probably have an hour or so logged in with that dog on my crotch...and not in a pleasant way...

Is he a PP dog? who the hell knows..LOL.he sure as hell aint a sport dog, or a sport washout... that much I know...and neither is that Mal in the vid, which has exactly ZERO titles...but I am sure could do very well in sport, if the handler was interested in sport...you come up against either of those dogs, you better have a gun, and have it in your hand with the safety off, they like most PP dogs, are a first line of defense....


----------



## rick smith

well, thanks for all the inputs....has been a good read with not too many surprises
what i've learned so far is :
1. sport dog breeders/trainers think a good sport dog will do whatever a PPD needs to do if needed, if and when that time ever comes, based on sport dog training and don't need extra training
2. no one on this large list can produce a name of a single company that supposedly breeds or trains PPD's, but a few hint that is where their wash outs end up, and no one has links to professional (company sponsored) PPD training scenarios....closest i've seen are more mondio-related
3. PPD oriented people think the training questions are not that important and it's mostly subjective
4. KNPV breeders/trainers have no opinion they feel worth writing about
5. Ditto for the majority of leo handlers

......not exactly what i was hoping for, so maybe i'll scratch the term from my vocabulary, but still believe it is applied too loosely in the working dog (aka : "protection work") fields that involve bite work

Joby.....based on the clips, K9 Crunchfest was the perfect name for that event //// rotflmao


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## Erik Berg

I know many dogs that are PP-dogs that also does sportwork, or policedogs for that matter. When I say PP-dog I mean a dog who works with a securityhandler, that are supposed to defend the handler if attacked, meaning not an ordinary person who thinks he needs a PP-dog. I guess it depends where you live what standards are required for such dogs. In sweden such dogs must first pass a selectiontest performed by the police, then it´s a certification-program that the dog and handler should pass every year. 

This certification isn´t that hard, some obedience and a hidden attack followed with a transport. Compared to most sports this is easy, but to have a functional dog you obviously also must train the dog in realistic scenarios, just like the police train their dogs outside what the certificationprogram requires. So I guess it´s correct to say the training of such a PP-dog is easier than a policedog or sportdog with mutiple tasks, but it doesn´t mean the selection and training of such a dog should be neglected if you really want to make sure the dog will do the job when you need it.


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> well, thanks for all the inputs....has been a good read with not too many surprises
> what i've learned so far is :
> 1. sport dog breeders/trainers think a good sport dog will do whatever a PPD needs to do if needed, if and when that time ever comes, based on sport dog training and don't need extra training
> 2. no one on this large list can produce a name of a single company that supposedly breeds or trains PPD's, but a few hint that is where their wash outs end up, and no one has links to professional (company sponsored) PPD training scenarios....closest i've seen are more mondio-related
> *3. PPD oriented people think the training questions are not that important and it's mostly subjective*
> 4. KNPV breeders/trainers have no opinion they feel worth writing about
> 5. Ditto for the majority of leo handlers
> 
> ......not exactly what i was hoping for, so maybe i'll scratch the term from my vocabulary, but still believe it is applied too loosely in the working dog (aka : "protection work") fields that involve bite work
> 
> Joby.....based on the clips, K9 Crunchfest was the perfect name for that event //// rotflmao


to add to Shane's question about what do you do with a PP dog, some people do PP Sport LOL...

Here in America all around the country there are what is called "PP Tournaments". or other PP type events...they are fairly popular, I would venture to say there are more PP tournies than their are PSA and ringsport (Mondio and FR) trials combined, in any given year..and they are often held in conjunction with an organized sport trial...

I do not know anyone who runs a business selling PP dogs...I did use to work with a guy that leased guard dogs, and also a guy that sold high priced dogs to the Chicago area sports athletes...

I have sold a couple of trained adults to people in the past that had some training, and although they were not sold specifically as PP dogs, I think they fit the bill pretty good...

Rick I am one of the few admitted PP types on here, what training questions do you have? it is subjective, but if you have a specific question I will blather on about it


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## Hans Akerbakk

Rick. let me simplify by worked the dogs I mean decoy.
The owner of the dogs showed up were I train sport dogs and asked if I would let the dogs bite me.
I don't work for any ppd company,never have.
Glad your concerned about ripoff companys .
If you're looking to buy and you purchase a crapper you have all the right to tell the the world about you're experiance.


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## Grant Cusworth

rick smith said:


> well, thanks for all the inputs....has been a good read with not too many surprises
> what i've learned so far is :
> 1. sport dog breeders/trainers think a good sport dog will do whatever a PPD needs to do if needed, if and when that time ever comes, based on sport dog training and don't need extra training
> 2. no one on this large list can produce a name of a single company that supposedly breeds or trains PPD's, but a few hint that is where their wash outs end up, and no one has links to professional (company sponsored) PPD training scenarios....closest i've seen are more mondio-related
> 3. PPD oriented people think the training questions are not that important and it's mostly subjective
> 4. KNPV breeders/trainers have no opinion they feel worth writing about
> 5. Ditto for the majority of leo handlers
> 
> ......not exactly what i was hoping for, so maybe i'll scratch the term from my vocabulary, but still believe it is applied too loosely in the working dog (aka : "protection work") fields that involve bite work
> 
> Joby.....based on the clips, K9 Crunchfest was the perfect name for that event //// rotflmao


My sport dog is also a my PPD. However, in my opinion very few dogs are cut out for PP. I stated earlier that sport training is harder than PP training. And I still hold fast on that. However, a true PPD is harder to come by than a sport dog. 

So, sports are harder to train, but easier to find a dog for, while PP is easier to train, but harder to find the RIGHT dog for. And yes, I also agree that a lot of PP dogs are from litters that were bred for sport or PSD that didn't work out. Too much drive/sharpness to be sold as a pet... so, I'll label it PP and sell it off.... That's the kind of stuff that gives PPD's bad names.


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## Ben Thompson

Joby Becker said:


> to add to Shane's question about what do you do with a PP dog, some people do PP Sport LOL...
> 
> Here in America all around the country there are what is called "PP Tournaments". or other PP type events...they are fairly popular, I would venture to say there are more PP tournies than their are PSA and ringsport (Mondio and FR) trials combined, in any given year..and they are often held in conjunction with an organized sport trial...
> 
> I do not know anyone who runs a business selling PP dogs...I did use to work with a guy that leased guard dogs, and also a guy that sold high priced dogs to the Chicago area sports athletes...
> 
> I have sold a couple of trained adults to people in the past that had some training, and although they were not sold specifically as PP dogs, I think they fit the bill pretty good...
> 
> Rick I am one of the few admitted PP types on here, what training questions do you have? it is subjective, but if you have a specific question I will blather on about it


Would you say that Protection sport association are personal protection dogs? I don't follow that sport but I think they do hidden sleeve and muzzle attack. Could be wrong though.


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## Brian Anderson

Shane Woodlief said:


> Ok here is my question - What do you do with a PPD? Honestly what do you do with them? Do you take them to the grocery store, restaurants, shopping centers, football game or church (hahahaha) - you know all the places that you could in fact need protection?
> 
> No you leave them at home - so they are not really Personal Protection Dogs - they are Home Protection Dogs! Get a big, blocky dog that barks and put a big gold chain around the neck of the dog with car emblem on it  . That will take care of most issues. The ones who are not frightened off will shoot the dog and do what ever else.
> 
> Joby your Arko/Carlos pup would have eaten their owners not protected them  hahahahaha


Shane my PP dog is my boy. He goes everywhere with me. He is my companion and happens to be able to handle business should it be required. At the property I have the big blocky dog sans the gold chain and car emblem. Most intelligent folks won't challenge a pissed off 155 lbs dog lol.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Ben Thompson said:


> Would you say that Protection sport association are personal protection dogs? I don't follow that sport but I think they do hidden sleeve and muzzle attack. Could be wrong though.


They do have hidden sleeve at the lower levels and muzzle work at the upper levels, but it's still a sport with rules. I think it shows the most forward pressure combined with environmental pressure, but a sport nonetheless. I don't consider my dog I train in PSA as a formal personal protection dog. His job would be to alert and to be a deterrent. Anything beyond that is nice, but I'm not betting my life on it. If I wanted a true PPD, I'd probably get a Rottweiler (other than the one I have...12 year old Rottweilers can't move very fast!). More of a visual deterrent and reputation than a 65 lbs Malinois, even though there's not any PSA 3 Rottweilers running around, or any other breed other than the Malinois for that matter for now. There will be at some point, probably soon.


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## rick smith

Hans, you're a slippery rascal 

Rick. let me simplify by worked the dogs I mean decoy.
>> sorry, but significant "work" imo ... sometimes harder than handling 

The owner of the dogs showed up were I train sport dogs and asked if I would let the dogs bite me.
>> doubt he just "showed up" out of the clear blue, but i'll take your word for it since you seem like a stand up guy and told him "sure they can bite me" for free.....but when you first discussed him and the company in this thread you seemed to know his background and a little bit about the dogs too .... anyway never mind 

I don't work for any ppd company,never have.
>> except part time when the PPD company's dogs came over and bit you that one day  ... doesn't make you a bad guy Hans 

Glad your concerned about ripoff companys .
>> really hope you are too .... so, would you say this "might" be a ripoff company, and keep in mind you don't have to divulge the company name so you won't be liable ... would certainly back up what others only assume that have never had first hand knowledge

If you're looking to buy and you purchase a crapper you have all the right to tell the the world about you're experiance.
>> thanx for the advice, but not related to my Q's


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## Brian Anderson

Grant Cusworth said:


> My sport dog is also a my PPD. However, in my opinion very few dogs are cut out for PP. I stated earlier that sport training is harder than PP training. And I still hold fast on that. However, a true PPD is harder to come by than a sport dog.
> 
> So, sports are harder to train, but easier to find a dog for, while PP is easier to train, but harder to find the RIGHT dog for. And yes, I also agree that a lot of PP dogs are from litters that were bred for sport or PSD that didn't work out. Too much drive/sharpness to be sold as a pet... so, I'll label it PP and sell it off.... That's the kind of stuff that gives PPD's bad names.


Grant thanks for that. That is what I wanted to say just couldn't figure out how to say it.


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## Martine Loots

Grant Cusworth said:


> My sport dog is also a my PPD. However, in my opinion very few dogs are cut out for PP. I stated earlier that sport training is harder than PP training. And I still hold fast on that. However, a true PPD is harder to come by than a sport dog.



True.


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## Martine Loots

Joby Becker said:


> The PP dogs that I know are not sport washouts, most are bought as pups along with a small percentage of adults, and 80% of the people I know with "PP" have absolutely no interest in sports...


Yes, but these aren't the dogs that are advertised on flashy websites and probably they could be nice sport dogs too, if the handlers would want to train them for sports.


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## Martine Loots

rick smith said:


> Hans :
> 
> - and how would you know if Martine is "correct" about "flashy web sites" ????? do you know if her kennel sold "wash outs" to these types of companies ?......maybe her kennel has no wash outs ? ...lol ..... she's already said her kennel has sold "wash outs" for LEO work  ....only she would know right ? let her speak for herself, which she has ,,,, in one short phrase


First of all, I don't have a kennel. I still have to sell the first dog in my life and I'm probably into dogs longer then you are.
We have very few wash outs, this is true, but this is due to very selective breeding and being very picky when choosing a pup.
If we have wash outs then I place them for free with someone I know will be very satisfied with the dog.

"one short phrase", yes, because I don't want to waste more words on a subject that can be covered with this one phrase...


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## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> Would you say that Protection sport association are personal protection dogs? I don't follow that sport but I think they do hidden sleeve and muzzle attack. Could be wrong though.


I would say some are some arent, depending on their owners view them that way. 

If you are asking if I think they are, based on what I think a PP dog should be...some are some aren't..LOL


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## rick smith

ok, here is a link of exactly what i was referring to :
http://www.protectiondogs.com/executive_protection_dogs.shtml
ANYONE heard of this outfit ?? near Boston ...
ANYONE sold them a dog ??

- professionally designed web site
- LOTS of dogs with names and faces
- expensive to outrageous
- lots of refs to off lead capability
- and a quote : "While we do offer such dogs with very advanced capabilities in interpreting situations, there are few individuals in the private sector who should own such dogs. Dogs such as these are usually sold with long term maintenance programs. As most of our clients have families and lead very social lives the majority of our dogs must see everyone as their best friend until told otherwise. Therefore they only "turn on" on-command."
- and even mentions a tie up with Europe

is this an example of what people are referring to as an all hype facility that acquires washed out sport dogs, etc ?

didn't really have to search long...it was the first hit


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## kevin holford

Ricardo Ashton said:


> . A civil dog sees all people as a potential threat, he just waits for the person to prove him right.


Lol, I love that. Describes my boy to a T.


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## Joby Becker

I guess I see it differently. The vast majority of PP dogs that I have seen are not even of traditional working/ sport breeds such as GSD or Mal.

They are mostly other breeds..

I imagine the Companies with the big websites, that sell PP dogs use mainly herders though. And in respect to those guys, some very well could be washouts, but I don't know for sure, but sounds plausible...

My input in this thread comes from a "regular joe" angle I have probably seen a 1000 dogs that people own, that viewed them as PP dogs, and I doubt very many of the were bought from a person that professionally sells trained Protection Dogs...I have worked more than a few that dogs that people told me were PP dogs, and had been trained, that I was not impressed by at all...same goes for dogs I have seen at the sport club meetings...


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Joby Becker said:


> you do what you want with them...as they are your pet...
> 
> I know a few dogs that have bitten people, none have ever been shot at, or shot...not everyone carries guns...and not everyone that carries a gun is prepared to use it..
> 
> Funny story...(true) one night I was getting ready to take my dog for a walk at about 1 am, cause that was a safe time to walk the dog, as far as loose dogs were concerned...
> 
> I had a roomie that was jerk, and screwed some guys girl,,,some dudes (and a chick) came over to kick the door in and put a hurting on him...the dog got involved, 2 guys got bitten and they all scattered...but that is not the story here...
> 
> SO I hooked up the dog and was getting ready to leave to go on a walk, about a month or so after that incident...and I saw a car pull off onto the side of my yard, and also saw a guy get out, and start heading down my fenceline, in my yard...I left out the side door and basically went straight at him...he opted to run back to the car...I caught up to the car before they could get it started and decided to head to the driver's side, which was closest to me, instead of going around to the passenger side where the guy was climbing in...
> 
> I tried to open the car door, and the guy pulled it shut and locked it, the dog was all over his window, which was partly down... he started the car and took off, literally drove right through my yard..
> 
> That is not the end of the story...About a year later I was at a local bar and started talking to a guy...topic got into dogs somehow, usually does with me...he then said I looked familiar..and something clicked in his head and asked me if I lived on the corner of such and such... I said yes...he asked me if I had a crazy dog, I said I did have some dogs yes...he told me that he almost shot me about a year ago..he told me that he was with a friend of his to come to my house and give the guy I was living with a beatdown, that he was in the car as "backup" and the other guy was gonna go through my roomie's open bedrom window and jump him while he was sleeping. He told me that the other guy had a gun, and that he also had a gun in the car, and that they almost shot me that night..
> 
> ...I told him that I didn't remember them even coming close to shooting me...he then confessed to me that they were both scared shitless, and happy to escape...and that I was a crazy mofo, with a crazy dog...he did ask me if the dog woulda bit him....I told him in so many words he was damn lucky he got away....shook his head...and then he bought me a shot..no bullshit....
> 
> It is my belief that most people that carry guns that are bad people, use guns for intimidation, that not many are prepared to use those guns...not that I want to test that theory, but I believe it is true...
> 
> When I did have "PP" dogs, I always said that anyone that tries to mess with my property, my house, or me if the dog was with me... better have a gun, and they better be ready to use it, and use it quickly...to protect THEMSELVES...because they are gonna need it....
> 
> Really? Restaurants? Shopping Centers? Football Games? Church???
> 
> Do you take your gun to all those places? Or do you mostly keep it at home?
> 
> So it appears there is just the usual disagreement on whether a dog is a good form of protection or not, to me...regardless of the stereotyping of the people who may want a protection dog, the quality of their dogs, or their training abilities...
> 
> Call em what you want to LOL...
> 
> I do know several people that take their dogs with them almost everywhere they can get away with it...or at least have them in the car with them...I do not know many people that have let their dogs bite someone out in public though..a couple, for sure. One out in a field, one by lake michigan, and one in a bar fight...her bf was getting pummeled by 3-4 dudes, he was black in a ******* bar, and fight broke out... the bouncer was also taking part in the fight, so no help there...so she snuck off to the parking lot and got her dog...brought him into the bar..he bit 2 guys, and the fight was over..and they left...better than shooting someone I think...
> 
> My current dog, just to be clear is neither a personal protection dog, nor a home protection dog, just dont tell her that...
> 
> Amanda Caldron's dog has a couple live bites as well...
> 
> here is a video...with 2 dogs in it...both of these dogs have live bites, the mal has a couple, including one of the girls ex-bf that decided he was gonna try to abuse her... the other dog is a pitbull X Dobie my friend bred and is the dog that bit 2 guys in a bar...watch the takedown..the dog wrestles the decoy down to the ground...not a good place to be with that dog at all either...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxNYWR-Dutc
> 
> not a super duper sport dog, but I had him chewing on the back of my neck on the ground before, when I fell down and the handler got scared for my safety and decided to out the dirty bastard from about 50 ft away with no line or ecollar on him, that was NOT one of her brightest moments..she said she did it cause she thought I might get hurt...LOL...and let me just say it was pretty fukking scary...that dog has also bitten more guys in the balls than any dog I know...one guy at a PP event was gonna wear scratch pants only and a sleeve...(the dog has bitten guys in the scratch pants before)..I told him NO WAY, and spoke to the organizers, said the guy needed to suit up, that the dog was fairly dangerous...becuase he does not always take what you offer him..he opted to suit up...right before the girl went out with the dog, I told the decoy, he was gonna find out why he needed the suit in about 10 seconds...she got on the field, he was the decoy for the first scenario...he jumped out of hiding, she sent the dog, he presented his arm, and the dog bit him straight in the crotch...Can-Am suit...no crotch protector..he started screaming...he left the field immediately after she outed the dog..I followed him into the bathroom to see if he was ok, and he came out of the stall with blood all over his hand...is that dog a good sport dog? no...definately not...he is a defensive dirty mofo that wants to hurt someone...but he is a social stable dog, and I can get in the car with him right after bitework, which most people that think they know the dog would not believe...he is a stable dog, but doesn't play games...his grip is NOT calm, but when he is trying to chew you up by trying to get up under the jacket, or chewing on your balls...or biting you in real life..you are not really thinking about that...I probably have an hour or so logged in with that dog on my crotch...and not in a pleasant way...
> 
> Is he a PP dog? who the hell knows..LOL.he sure as hell aint a sport dog, or a sport washout... that much I know...and neither is that Mal in the vid, which has exactly ZERO titles...but I am sure could do very well in sport, if the handler was interested in sport...you come up against either of those dogs, you better have a gun, and have it in your hand with the safety off, they like most PP dogs, are a first line of defense....





Brian Anderson said:


> Shane my PP dog is my boy. He goes everywhere with me. He is my companion and happens to be able to handle business should it be required. At the property I have the big blocky dog sans the gold chain and car emblem. Most intelligent folks won't challenge a pissed off 155 lbs dog lol.


Hey guys I was tongue and cheeking mostly to prove a point and to get people to think. Most people who talk about PPD is something nasty that hangs at home and is put up when people come over. I was just challenging the idea of it being personal that is all. The reason that I stated all those places is due to the fact that is where a lot of crime takes place. Again I was mostly having fun

Joby I listed church because of what I do for a living. True story a guy tried to assault me in the church parking lot a month ago. Should have seen the look on his face when when he figured out a little too late that I had taken a mix of martial arts for almsot 20 years hahahahahah. That exchange did not go the way he thought it would! No I am not bragging :lol: Just happy my fat butt could still move :lol:


----------



## Ben Thompson

Joby Becker said:


> I would say some are some arent, depending on their owners view them that way.
> 
> If you are asking if I think they are, based on what I think a PP dog should be...some are some aren't..LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpzZVuQJmOA&feature=related

So you like courage, aggression, defense drive maybe with some prey drive? Like the dog in the video?


----------



## Ben Thompson

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They do have hidden sleeve at the lower levels and muzzle work at the upper levels, but it's still a sport with rules. I think it shows the most forward pressure combined with environmental pressure, but a sport nonetheless. I don't consider my dog I train in PSA as a formal personal protection dog. His job would be to alert and to be a deterrent. Anything beyond that is nice, but I'm not betting my life on it. If I wanted a true PPD, I'd probably get a Rottweiler (other than the one I have...12 year old Rottweilers can't move very fast!). More of a visual deterrent and reputation than a 65 lbs Malinois, even though there's not any PSA 3 Rottweilers running around, or any other breed other than the Malinois for that matter for now. There will be at some point, probably soon.


Hidden sleeve, muzzle work, and PSA 3 would be enough to scare me away!


----------



## Joby Becker

Shane Woodlief said:


> Hey guys I was tongue and cheeking mostly to prove a point and to get people to think. Most people who talk about PPD is something nasty that hangs at home and is put up when people come over. I was just challenging the idea of it being personal that is all. The reason that I stated all those places is due to the fact that is where a lot of crime takes place. Again I was mostly having fun
> 
> Joby I listed church because of what I do for a living. True story a guy tried to assault me in the church parking lot a month ago. Should have seen the look on his face when when he figured out a little too late that I had taken a mix of martial arts for almsot 20 years hahahahahah. That exchange did not go the way he thought it would! No I am not bragging :lol: Just happy my fat butt could still move :lol:


My friend brings his dog to church with him, he is disabled, so he can...The dog does not really do much to aid him in his disability, but it would "attack" a church pew if he told it to. 

I get where you are coming from, now that you put it that way...

I have had to keep weird hours lately (for things you are probably aware of) and posting here has helped me stay awake...LOL...

Good for you..I never could fight very well...but do know how not to aid someone into making myself a victim. I now live in IL, the only state you can't get a CCW permit in, and I don't bring this dog with me everywhere I go, and if she travels with me, it is in the crate...so I am a little more vulnerable than I would like to be at times...

Since living in this new place with my gf and her two kids, we have had no real issues, the potential is there though.

I often do not lock the front door here if I am home, amazingly, in the short time I have been here, there have been now, 4, yes 4!, occasions where someone we do not know has either opened our door to come in, or actually came into the house...3 times the dog was in her crate, and once she was on the couch with me..They were all hispanic, speaking very little if any english..one young teenaged boy, 2 women, and an older gentlemen, who meant no harm...just had the wrong house...and luckily for them, this dog, and this situation is different than it would be if I was living by myself, with no cat in the house, and with a dog or two, out and about..that might try to help them open the door to "welcome" them.

We put a sign on the front door that says:

NO SOLICITORS!
NO HABLA ESPANOL!!!

after the last incident, and I think will help deter people from coming in the wrong house...lol...

I am glad the dog did react in some form, all times it happened, and also glad that no one got bitten..

gotta get up now and lock that damn door...


----------



## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpzZVuQJmOA&feature=related
> 
> So you like courage, aggression, defense drive maybe with some prey drive? Like the dog in the video?


Based on the video, that dog looks like a dog I wouldn't mind owning, depending on a lot of other things of course...


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> ok, here is a link of exactly what i was referring to :
> http://www.protectiondogs.com/executive_protection_dogs.shtml
> ANYONE heard of this outfit ?? near Boston ...
> ANYONE sold them a dog ??
> 
> - professionally designed web site
> - LOTS of dogs with names and faces
> - expensive to outrageous
> - lots of refs to off lead capability
> - and a quote : "While we do offer such dogs with very advanced capabilities in interpreting situations, there are few individuals in the private sector who should own such dogs. Dogs such as these are usually sold with long term maintenance programs. As most of our clients have families and lead very social lives the majority of our dogs must see everyone as their best friend until told otherwise. Therefore they only "turn on" on-command."
> - and even mentions a tie up with Europe
> 
> *is this an example of what people are referring to as an all hype facility that acquires washed out sport dogs, etc ?*
> 
> didn't really have to search long...it was the first hit


who knows..I am sure some of the dogs and training are better than others...but who can say much about them, if they do not know the operation personally, or have not seen most of the dogs work, or better yet, actually worked or tested the dogs themselves...I know you are asking if someone DOES know the operators..just talking here..

as far as a rip-off goes...eh...for some people it will be a status thing, a talking point, and piece of mind..What is a fair price for piece of mind to an ultra rich person???

The Malinois in the vid I posted, I think cost the girl 100.00 to purchase. He is a nice dog for sure...If she was rich and payed $50,000 for the dog, he would still be a nice dog...and although I would not ever pay that much, I would not say a person that did, got ripped off...

It would be interesting to see if a place like that would allow a potential customer to bring someone with to evaluate the dogs, in a fair manner..before purchase. 

That might be a way to see if they are ALL hype...and I still say a washed sport dog, pr PSD candidate can be a good protection type dog, depending on why he was washed....


----------



## Brian Anderson

Shane said: "Hey guys I was tongue and cheeking mostly to prove a point and to get people to think. Most people who talk about PPD is something nasty that hangs at home and is put up when people come over. I was just challenging the idea of it being personal that is all. The reason that I stated all those places is due to the fact that is where a lot of crime takes place. Again I was mostly having fun"

Shane I posted that to make a point that just because they are bite trained doesn't mean they can't live a normal life and do things with you. I am of the opinion that a well trained bite dog ( assuming he is a stable dog) is the safest dog regarding liability. They have been trained to deal with lots of situations and see a lot more than a snapping out of control bundle of nerves.


----------



## rick smith

guess no one on the list lives near Bwoston 

ok, how about the last 30secs of the clip for a decent "scenario driven" exercise ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gt_kjo-pzXA

imo this would be a good start for PPD training :
public
off lead
pretty realistic scenario

i like the off lead work here but just wished they would have waited a bit longer before for the assault to test the dog's stability more
- but would it be necessary for a sport dog train this or would the reaction be the same ?


----------



## Martine Loots

rick smith said:


> guess no one on the list lives near Bwoston
> 
> ok, how about the last 30secs of the clip for a decent "scenario driven" exercise ?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gt_kjo-pzXA
> 
> imo this would be a good start for PPD training :
> public
> off lead
> pretty realistic scenario
> 
> i like the off lead work here but just wished they would have waited a bit longer before for the assault to test the dog's stability more
> - but* would it be necessary for a sport dog train this or would the reaction be the same *?


Any dog with a bit of training can do this. Doesn't even have to be sport dog training level.
Talking about the control exercises here because the defense can be done even by a dog without any training.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

rick smith said:


> guess no one on the list lives near Bwoston
> 
> ok, how about the last 30secs of the clip for a decent "scenario driven" exercise ?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gt_kjo-pzXA
> 
> imo this would be a good start for PPD training :
> public
> off lead
> pretty realistic scenario
> 
> i like the off lead work here but just wished they would have waited a bit longer before for the assault to test the dog's stability more
> - but would it be necessary for a sport dog train this or would the reaction be the same ?


Rick

What are these people charging for a dog that is trained to pass a Mondio Ring I trial? Absence of Handler, Food Refusal
and Defense of handler...nothing new, nothing special.
JQP is easily impressed. Show some basic sport level training and a lot of hype and scare tactics and you've got some fool
paying thousands of $$$$ for an "executive protection dog" :-(


----------



## Joby Becker

Martine Loots said:


> Any dog with a bit of training can do this. Doesn't even have to be sport dog training level.
> *Talking about the control exercises here because the defense can be done even by a dog without any training.*


A dog that is predisposed for it sure....I am sure the quality of dogs, and the type of dogs that you are accustomed to are not the same as what most people, even on this board are accustomed to...

Rick that looks pretty good to me, but one factor would be, has that dog bitten that same guy 100 times before? I would like to see the same dog in the same situation in muzzle, and have the guy about 10 feet away with a fake gun calmly demand the girl's purse, and see if the dog would engage the guy on command with no equipment, and no stimulation...but that is a good scenario in my book...could be the dog knows that guy, and has bitten him in a hidden sleeve a hundred times before though...


----------



## rick smith

Martine - what kind of dog world do you live in ????
the dog is OFF lead in a down; alerts but does almost nothing while the guy is raising his voice, waits for contact on the owner, immediately comes thru the table and engages the attacking arm, pushes thru and puts the guy down, OUTS on command and returns to a sit near the owner
- if you think dogs with NO training can do that you don't live in the same dog world i do 
- i agree ANY good PET can do the heeling, treat refusal and other OB control shown in the first 7 min, (especially since there were ZERO distractions), and a LOT of dogs with sport training might do a defense of handler in public 
.......but a dog with NO training......i don't think so....but of course i am not in your environment and don't see the dogs you see

Joby :
i think as soon as the guy came up and the dog started wagging his tail it was a dead giveaway the dog knew it was "game on" and a bite was coming its way, and this was not a first time drill 
- if the dog was REALLY good, they could have shown it off much much better having the guy pound the table a few times and jump around a bit longer to show the dog had GOOD control of threat recognition.....but i WOULD say it was something that not ALL sport dogs could pull off that cleanly in public rather than out on a field
- and it was a clear "sport bite" in prey rather than any kind of fight put up by the helper
- of course if a person had never seen a bite sport, it would have looked MUCH more impressive 
- JMO of course


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Martine - what kind of dog world do you live in ????
> the dog is OFF lead in a down; alerts but does almost nothing while the guy is raising his voice, waits for contact on the owner, immediately comes thru the table and engages the attacking arm, pushes thru and puts the guy down, OUTS on command and returns to a sit near the owner
> - if you think dogs with NO training can do that you don't live in the same dog world i do
> - i agree ANY good PET can do the heeling, treat refusal and other OB control shown in the first 7 min, (especially since there were ZERO distractions), and a LOT of dogs with sport training might do a defense of handler in public
> .......but a dog with NO training......i don't think so....but of course i am not in your environment and don't see the dogs you see
> 
> Joby :
> i think as soon as the guy came up and the dog started wagging his tail it was a dead giveaway the dog knew it was "game on" and a bite was coming its way, and this was not a first time drill
> - if the dog was REALLY good, they could have shown it off much much better having the guy pound the table a few times and jump around a bit longer to show the dog had GOOD control of threat recognition.....but i WOULD say it was something that not ALL sport dogs could pull off that cleanly in public rather than out on a field
> - and it was a clear "sport bite" in prey rather than any kind of fight put up by the helper
> - of course if a person had never seen a bite sport, it would have looked MUCH more impressive
> - JMO of course


agreed 100%..

When I "train" a dog for PPD...I like to have the customer hire other people (strangers) to do scenarios, to see what is going on with the dogs...you come in the house with a suit..much different that hidden equipment.or in muzzle..and I almost always prefer no stimulation at first...and then see whats in the tank...if they engage...

it is a very fluid thing...guys that test dogs know how to get in the dogs head...john q. public does not...I like dogs that if they engage and you fight them, it only increases their efforts..but that might not be the norm for "most dogs". skilled people can get into most dogs heads...if not all..but most criminals are not dog agitating experts...


----------



## rick smith

not talkin about the hi priced "estate" protector K9's now.....

the main reason i don't agree with sport dog people who say any good dog will protect is because in that situation the assailant is really not trying to engage the dog at all and not even giving the dog much attention.....they are focused on the victim...that part we all should agree on

a dog who has been taught on a field to engage a decoy in a defense of handler is showing a conditioned trained response to bite as soon as the handler is touched .... a VERY clear trigger..totally keying on the decoys action to the handler
- there probably won't be that type of trigger in MANY PP scenarios which might not even NEED a bite from a good dog to defend the owner and meet the threat
- AND i doubt that in my real world a bad guy will come charging up and make an obvious attack......therefore a properly trained PPD (if there is such an animal) REALLY has to have the confidence and stability to ALERT first, but not engage, and the owner should have complete control OFF lead, and let the dog know if a B/H was all that it needed to do, and that should be step one in PPD training imo.....i never hear of that training but guess it's so simple it doesn't need to be taught 
- i don't think it is so easy to train - IN public - or that it would be a piece of cake for a sport dog to carry over from competition biting
- when i see it done, i might change my mind, but just to have someone say they "know" their dog will do it.....sorry
- a well trained sport dog who engages mostly from prey might be a very nice dog for many situations because it will remain clear and DISengage (out) when asked, and that would be beneficial and certainly prevent the lawsuits from assholes who claimed someone's "vicious dog" attacked them for no reason
- OVERprotection can be a certain liability, and i see that in dogs with more of a KNPV background, or dogs who have been trained to really enjoy the fight
- a REAL assailant isn't dressed in heavy protective gear and CANNOT put up the same type of fight as a decoy, which also helps the dog in a real situation ... a live bite is obviously harder on a real bad guy than it would feel to a decoy, and that should be factored in when training, and that is something a sport trainer might NOT want to train for obvious "points" reasons 

....but what i'm leaning towards in how i would define a truly good PPD is that it should REALLY be worked hard in public on control and stability BEFORE engaging, and if it should be engaging at all.....lots and lots of proofing !

- but i still say specific training is required and a sport dog doesn't learn these techniques by osmosis from competition because a sports dog is not conditioned this way


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Thomas Barriano said:


> Rick
> 
> What are these people charging for a dog that is trained to pass a Mondio Ring I trial? Absence of Handler, Food Refusal
> and Defense of handler...nothing new, nothing special.
> JQP is easily impressed. Show some basic sport level training and a lot of hype and scare tactics and you've got some fool
> paying thousands of $$$$ for an "executive protection dog" :-(


That's what I was kind of thinking. He looked like a nice dog who has been nicely trained for ring or PSA. Not so sure on the last line of the video where they claim they can "easily" train your dog to do the same thing. Some of the obedience maybe, but I don't know about "easily."  That's probably where the "or we'll sell you a dog to do the same" bit comes in. ;-)


----------



## rick smith

Joby
for sure the less obvious the threat the harder it would be for the dog and that was one of the "scenarios" i was gonna PM you regarding training. in a crowded situation it might be hard for the handler to indicate to the dog who to engage on

and now i even read from a well respected trainer that even a dog with NO training can do it 

of course i'm not in the market living where i do, but it made me think a lot about it when the statements were made about dogs saving people and how a good dog is a natural "ppd" .... among "other" threads about whether a dog will protect their owner 
- i just can't agree and i think the training would not be as easy or unnecessary as some people think, and that is just for a "low level" PPD; not the super PPD's that cost as much a benz

i do however know a LOT more about personal protection and physical security than dog training and a ppd would not necessarily be near the top of my "PP" checklist


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Joby
> for sure the less obvious the threat the harder it would be for the dog and that was one of the "scenarios" i was gonna PM you regarding training. in a crowded situation it might be hard for the handler to indicate to the dog who to engage on
> 
> and now i even read from a well respected trainer that even a dog with NO training can do it
> 
> of course i'm not in the market living where i do, but it made me think a lot about it when the statements were made about dogs saving people and how a good dog is a natural "ppd" .... among "other" threads about whether a dog will protect their owner
> - i just can't agree and i think the training would not be as easy or unnecessary as some people think, and that is just for a "low level" PPD; not the super PPD's that cost as much a benz
> 
> i do however know a LOT more about personal protection and physical security than dog training and a ppd would not necessarily be near the top of my "PP" checklist


aside from an obvious weapon..a dog is a great tool..and in my experience personally a dog was better than a weapon, because I personally never have had to officially use any weapons in my limited situations where I chose to defend myself, or my property...with a dog...

my dogs got live bites though, and every troublemaker split...PRONTO...no cops, no deaths, no sliced arteries, no gunshots...just a few holes and some fear...on all occasions, guns and knives/machetes and swords were readily accessible...but all things considered I felt safer letting the dog take care of it...maybe stupidly...but it worked out everytime...it also worked out everytime for all the people I know who's dogs put holes in various people..which is more that a couple

and total (un) plausible deniability that the dogs were "trained"..they were doing what a decent dog would normally do if someone came on my property with bad intentions...."took me be surprise" never expected it...but never had the authorities involved, just like the others I know whos dogs have bitten people who were in the wrong..I admit some of those people left the scene almost as quickly as the guys that got bitten


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Brian Anderson said:


> Shane said: "Hey guys I was tongue and cheeking mostly to prove a point and to get people to think. Most people who talk about PPD is something nasty that hangs at home and is put up when people come over. I was just challenging the idea of it being personal that is all. The reason that I stated all those places is due to the fact that is where a lot of crime takes place. Again I was mostly having fun"
> 
> Shane I posted that to make a point that just because they are bite trained doesn't mean they can't live a normal life and do things with you. I am of the opinion that a well trained bite dog ( assuming he is a stable dog) is the safest dog regarding liability. They have been trained to deal with lots of situations and see a lot more than a snapping out of control bundle of nerves.


Hey Brian I am not disagreeing with you man. I am playing the role of devil's advocate here that is all. People come on to the forum and and talk about having some bad a$$ protection dog they will call up any number of breeders on here and tell them what they want and what they really want is some junk yard dog. What you are talking about is different than that and a good thing and I am not fighting against that. Sorry if I am not clear man.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

gents could you kndly pass an opinion on this; is it possible to have a sharp dog that has thick nerves - or is sharp and nervy the same thing. 

eg can u have a dog thats quick to alert (sharp) but not concerned with any enviro, eg gunshots, thunder... and can a sharp dog be naturally social. 

i get most terminolgy now, but still can't get the difference between nervy and sharp if they are different and if nervy means unsocial. sorry about the sub-topic but kinda fits here.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Discussed ad nauseum about a month and a half ago, Pete:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/defining-sharp-21287/


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## Peter Cavallaro

thanks Maren can u please fore-warn me; is there anything at the end that resembles a conclusion or agreement or just a lot of arguing until people get bored and move onto another thread.

just want to calculate if its worth the time investment.

cheers


----------



## Adam Rawlings

My definition of sharp is a dog that has a reacts quickly to a threat. A confident dog can be sharp, as can a nervy POS dog with a poor tempermant.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

cheers thats all i was askin - so sharp and nervy don't automatically imply each other, you can have a sharp dog that may or may not have thin nerves.


----------



## rick smith

valid Q's peter but i do feel a bit nauseous 

when people feel they have a great dog :
nerves (of steel)
sharp (as a tack)
confident (as bruce lee)

when people see a bad dog (never their own) :
nerves (are shot, aka nerve bag)
sharp (and reactive; fear biter or handler aggressive)
confident (none)

defs can vary a bit; plse don't start; this thread is going south on its own anyway 
that pup you have seems fine to me....just remember it's all genetics and good dogs don't need much training....you're on the right path !


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## Ben Thompson

I like this Marko dog. Sharp(quick) and will bite a man for real. . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5osw4ynoUI&feature=related


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## Erik Berg

As I said, plenty of dogs works as "PP-dogs", many of them also do sports, so I don´t see the problem. I don´t think anyone says you need zero training for a dog to be used for protection and under controll in scenarios that differs from sport.


----------



## Jim Engel

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/PersonalProtection.htm


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## Thomas Barriano

Erik Berg said:


> As I said, plenty of dogs works as "PP-dogs", many of them also do sports, so I don´t see the problem. I don´t think anyone says you need zero training for a dog to be used for protection and under controll in scenarios that differs from sport.



Erik

A PP dog trained with control and obedience would probably do OK in sport. Just like a dog trained for sport would probably protect you. The problem is with the yahoos who buys a used sleeve or bite suit and does nothing but on lead bite work in defense and think that's a personal protection dog


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Joby said:

_My friend brings his dog to church with him, he is disabled, so he can...The dog does not really do much to aid him in his disability, but it would "attack" a church pew if he told it to._ 

We know someone who used to buy in the dogs for the Army. One of his dogs had unfortunately been PTS for taking a short cut into the cellar to attack a "criminal".

His next dog (in my way of thinking) didn't match the former. But, the dog would attack absolutely anything on command. My husband was duly impressed but I guessed the training behind it. The handler pointed at a lampost or whatever and the dog attacked it aggressively.

Both dogs were fine around us - the first we met when we visited him and he said "he's crazy - can you stand it?" and I said "yes". The result was a nutcase who raced out of the kennel and jumped on to my lap. Both dogs were "clear in the head".


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## Erik Berg

Thomas Barriano said:


> Erik
> 
> A PP dog trained with control and obedience would probably do OK in sport. Just like a dog trained for sport would probably protect you. The problem is with the yahoos who buys a used sleeve or bite suit and does nothing but on lead bite work in defense and think that's a personal protection dog


Thomas, a dog only trained in sport I guess it would be a risk to use as a PPD, especially if sports doesn´t cover what a PPD should do to be effective, like using ear/nose to detect if someone is hiding behind a door or similar. If you work as a securityguard it is nice to know if someone is wating to knock you down when you are patrolling an object.

I agree there seems to be a business that are not so serious when it comes to PP-dogs, but even if there are no standards in US for example I don´t see why a PP-dog suddenly isn´t conditioned and using their instincts just like a sportdog, granted in different scenarions and goals in mind. 

Here is a PP-dog that also worked in sport, are many more, so this is not such a mystere to me
http://www.youtube.com/user/saltkungen#p/u/17/x-HBuilKIr4


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## Thomas Barriano

Erik Berg said:


> Thomas, a dog only trained in sport I guess it would be a risk to use as a PPD, especially if sports doesn´t cover what a PPD should do to be effective, like using ear/nose to detect if someone is hiding behind a door or similar. If you work as a securityguard it is nice to know if someone is wating to knock you down when you are patrolling an object.
> 
> I agree there seems to be a business that are not so serious when it comes to PP-dogs, but even if there are no standards in US for example I don´t see why a PP-dog suddenly isn´t conditioned and using their instincts just like a sportdog, granted in different scenarions and goals in mind.
> 
> Here is a PP-dog that also worked in sport, are many more, so this is not such a mystere to me
> http://www.youtube.com/user/saltkungen#p/u/17/x-HBuilKIr4


Erik,

It looks like you're talking about a security and/or patrol dog.
Here in the US "personal protection" dog usually means their
main job is to protect an individual. A sport dog might protect his owner. A Police K9 might protect his handler and a MWD might protect his handler but that's not their main job.


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## Mark Reimer

These guys know all about real deal training


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## Thomas Barriano

Mark Reimer;300737
These guys know all about real deal training[/QUOTE said:


> Mark,
> 
> I think you're on a roll here? <20posts and you've already gotten two threads locked. I lost count of how many pointers you've
> made about Soul Assassins Kennel. Mark "Reamer" has got to be
> the latest David Felliciano nom de plume
> Anyone want to start a poll on how long it takes for "Mark" to be
> shown the exit? LOL


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## Doug Zaga

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mark,
> 
> I think you're on a roll here? <20posts and you've already gotten two threads locked. I lost count of how many pointers you've
> made about Soul Assassins Kennel. Mark "Reamer" has got to be
> the latest David Felliciano nom de plume
> Anyone want to start a poll on how long it takes for "Mark" to be
> shown the exit? LOL


Come on Tom..create it


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## Mark Reimer

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mark,
> 
> I think you're on a roll here? <20posts and you've already gotten two threads locked. I lost count of how many pointers you've
> made about Soul Assassins Kennel. Mark "Reamer" has got to be
> the latest David Felliciano nom de plume
> Anyone want to start a poll on how long it takes for "Mark" to be
> shown the exit? LOL


That was the helper at the Pit championship. That fool was off the hook


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## Mark Reimer

By the way its pronounced REYEmer fool. I'd think training a german sport that you'd figure out how to read the words


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## Thomas Barriano

Doug Zaga said:


> Come on Tom..create it


Doug,

I tried but he was gone before I finished setting up the poll


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## Tim Lynam

Be careful Thomas, he's a graduate of the Mr. T School of Dog Training.#-o


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## Thomas Barriano

Tim Lynam said:


> Be careful Thomas, he's a graduate of the Mr. T School of Dog Training.#-o


I pity the fool who needs to use a fake name ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro

i thought he was funny


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## rick smith

thought it said the "kennel" is in Inglewood....i grew up near there; know the area well;
and still know a few Hispanic buds there....but there are a lot of parts i wouldn't go thru without my Sig on my lap .... empty "of course" with the rounds stored in the trunk locked up "of course" 
......got a REAL good idea what kind of pits are being bred around there and for why :-(
...anybody can post/dump a pic on a web site .....


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