# What are you looking for in a pp dog



## Lee Robinson

This post is NOT an instructional post...nor is it about what is "right or wrong." It is just about basics of PP and what most of our clients are looking for. It should also be noted that both the dogs in this post are less than 2 years of age and only have foundational basic training at this point in time.

Most of our clients are civilians that are looking for a dog that behaves according to the situation. If there is no threat, then there is no bite. However, if there is a threat, we believe a dog should proceed through the following actions...

The "progressive stages of protection" that we use are...
1.ALARM & CONFRONT - (Here the dog confronts the possible threat and informs them that their presence has been detected in hopes to PREVENT an engagement) 
2.WARNING - When time permits, it is best to warn the criminal to stop or to leave immediately (This serves as a warning to PREVENT an engagement). Examples of warnings may include, "Stop and leave, or I will send my dog," "The police have been notified," or in a very serious situation perhaps even "Stop, or I will shoot." 
3.ENGAGEMENT - (To STOP or PREVENT harm to you or others when a criminal pursues with malicious intent) 
4.OUT - Out on command once a threat is stopped (to PREVENT excessive use of force) 
5.Hold & Guard - Similar to a bark and hold. The goal is to keep the criminal passive until the authorities arrive.

Here are a few photos that illustrate some of these steps.

*Chimera's Tate...*























































Here the sleeve was slipped...at which point Tate drops the sleeve to go back to "guard."





































In these next 2 photos, you can notice the fresh punctures in the sleeve.



















*Chimera's Linebaugh*


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## David Frost

Is it a requirement that all of the steps be done on leash? Granted I don't always look at all the photos etc posted, but it seems the dogs are always on leash. 

DFrost


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## Mike Scheiber

David Frost said:


> Is it a requirement that all of the steps be done on leash? Granted I don't always look at all the photos etc posted, but it seems the dogs are always on leash.
> 
> DFrost


Thats been my observation ppd trainer seem to seldom do any thing off leash. :lol: what ever


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## Jerry Lyda

Not all. LOL


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## Sidney Johnsen

I would guess that alot of PP training is done on the leash because most normal civilian folks who are out and about with their dogs would have them on a leash?


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## Chris McDonald

You got any images or video of these dogs not biting when under pressure? I’m glad you took the flip flops off.


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## Lee Robinson

We have over a dozen of pictures in this post that show a dog being confronted and not allowed to bite, but should the attacker continue then of course we are going to permit a dog to engage.

As mentioned above a civilian dog should do most of its work either at home, in a car, or on leash; however, a PP dog should definately be capable of working off leash as well. There are videos on our website that show sends...as that too is a component of a PP dog.


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## Chris Wild

Control.

The ability to work independently without the handler.

The ability to work off leash in a situation where opposition reflex and the presence of the handler as "back up" or having flight removed as an option cannot impact the dog's behavior. 

All aggitation I see here is done in defense with the dog on lead, so of course he is going to go into reactive/defensive aggression in that situation. I want a dog who will engage when the decoy is not presenting an obvious (to the dog) threat and actively engaging his defense drive, and also who will engage when he is on his own and flight is an option because he's not restrained.

The ability to work on someone who is not wearing obvious equipment.

The ability to work on a decoy who is presenting true pressure and threat to the dog. In most of those photos, even the ones where the decoy is "treatening" the body language he presents to the dog shows a great deal of avoidance mixed in. Something the dog is clearly going to key in on. A dog who appears strong and forward when his foe clearly shows a lack of full engagement and a readiness to flee at any second (based on body language) is not necessarily going to be as strong and forward when his foe doesn't display that he's about ready to go into flight. While this sort of psychological manipulation is very appropriate in early stages of training, a true protection dog needs to get beyond it.

As far as "fresh punctures in the sleeve" that doesn't impress me much considering that's a soft sleeve.


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## Thomas Barriano

I'd like to see a PP dog that has been tested in either sport or by an impartial trainer/decoy.....Yours aren't

I'd like to see a PP dog that will protect without being on leash and/or worked in defense....Yours don't

I'd like to see a PP dog that is under control and has as close to 100% obedience as possible.......Yours aren't

You wrote:

"Here the sleeve was slipped...at which point Tate drops the sleeve to go back to "guard.""

Tate is guarding because the decoy is agitating him in defense. It has
NOTHING to do with training. Tate (and the rest of your dogs) are
reactive not active.

"In these next 2 photos, you can notice the fresh punctures in the sleeve"

ROTFLMFAO It's a friggen puppy sleeve Lee.

Still waiting for you to send Steve or Dom the $2k to back up your challenge that this FAT 62 year old man that you claim has been "stalking you" can't take $100 off the ground in front of your dog
Preacher Man.
In the spirit of full disclosure: your original offer was $100 and you'd pay my expenses if I were successful 


Thomas Barriano


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## Al Curbow

I think 99% is the dog and 1 % is training for PP. The dog should have cellophane thin thresholds and high drives, anti-social and quick to bite, who cares where on the body or how full the grip is. For me the right dog for the job needs lots of OB but not a ton of bitework, if the dog is tested the weekly "real" bitework stuff is for the humans ego, the dog will bite, it's been tested. If i needed a PPD this is what i would want,


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## Chris McDonald

Lee Robinson said:


> We have over a dozen of pictures in this post that show a dog being confronted and not allowed to bite, but should the attacker continue then of course we are going to permit a dog to engage.
> 
> There not allowed to bite because they can’t reach their swinging from a leash in all the images.


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## Lee Robinson

Chris, that is correct. I don't have time to build up dogs that are not willing. THere seems to be a lot of asking about this and that instead of just looking at the pictures for what they are.

If you want to "keep it real" so to speak, here is a video of a 17-18 month old dog of our breeding with almost NO TRAINING. In this video, he does sends and takes nearly 50 stick hits off leash. The level of conflict is great enough that someone like Thomas wouldn't do this type of test with his dog even if it was a SchH III because it might "have negative long term effects on the dog's performance on a score card." I don't breed sport dogs. I breed PP dogs. On the street, there are no rules. In my breeding program, we want to see what type of willingness does a dog have naturally to confront conflict and pressure...even off leash. Training is done to improve the dog, but in our program we don't fool ourselves into thinking that training alone makes a reliable PP dog. Now, I do NOT condone "trainers" that test a client's dog like this prior to training, but this is my program and there have been times when I wanted to see how our foundation dogs would work naturally. Since this video was made, Preacher has had a significant amount of training to make him even more effective...but in this video you can see the reaction of a well bred dog off leas, without his handler, at times with me backing up, and in direct conflict despite not having significant training at the time that video was made. http://www.chimerakennels.com/preachermananaturalguardian.wmv


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## Chris McDonald

Lee Robinson said:


> Chris, that is correct. I don't have time to build up dogs that are not willing. THere seems to be a lot of asking about this and that instead of just looking at the pictures for what they are.
> 
> They are junk yard dogs, I am looking at junk yard dogs on a leash


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## Lee Robinson

Did you not read the post above? Off leash at only 17-18 months. A real PP dog should be able to do this. http://www.chimerakennels.com/preachermananaturalguardian.wmv

Same dog at only 10 months... http://www.chimerakennels.com/PreacherMansfirstsendsuit.wmv

Here is another one of our dogs off leash http://www.chimerakennels.com/Bullettesuit021706.wmv

Another video at K9PS... http://www.chimerakennels.com/K9PSBullette040905.wmv

Another dog... http://www.chimerakennels.com/preydrivetruck1.wmv

Off leash send and UNDER water... http://www.chimerakennels.com/preydrivelake.wmv

Also, a "junk yard dog" is an anti-social dog and does not have to get along with a family. They can be great stable dogs, but they can also be rank driven and even unstable and be totally unsuitable for civilian life. A PP dog is something different.


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## Adam Rawlings

I thought Bullette's control and bite work looked good.


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## Gillian Schuler

I've not seen anything spectacular. I've seen a lot of training that I've seen better done on our sports field. As for presenting the sleeve, that is something done in competition but not always in training, no big deal. If a dog misses the arm once in training, it won't the second time.

The "man" coming out of the woods is the same decoy the dog was fighting previously, also no big deal. I didn't see as much determination in the dog as I thought there would be after reading your thread.
I didn't watch all the other videos I must admit.

Facit - nothing out of the ordinary but not hopeless.


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## Dwyras Brown

Lee, are any of your dogs trained to read 'smiling' threats? I'm talking about the guy who is making all nice by face but is oozing bad intentions. The guy who is all smiles and shows no body language, but is ready to cut your throat. Or are your dogs trained to face obviius threats only?


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## Lee Robinson

The PP dog should attack anyone I tell it to...smiling or not. It is just classical conditioning. A dog hears a bell, gets food, it salivates. Repeat again and again. A dog hears the bell then salivates even without food. This can be done with training. A dog hears a "guard" command, sees a threat, it responds. Repeat again and again. Dog hears command, it engages...threat or not. However, the dog should be stable enough that is there is no threat and no command, the dog should be cool.

This thread has been derailed. The topic was what do you look for in a PP dog. I showed what we look for, but that doesn't mean you have to look for the same thing...so, by all means...what do you look for in a PP dog.


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## Kyle Sprag

Your videos don't match the BS and Bravato in your posts and on you website.

Looks like Amature Hour with Marginal Pets, The shelters are full of them.


Your videos and pics of dogs doing the same ole same ole are your own worst enemy that even your editing can't fix.


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## Lee Robinson

Ok, here you go getting personal again. 

KS, I am about the dogs. You seem to be about nonsense. If you would like, please show your dog getting 50 stick hits on his head, neck, and back off leash...with no training.


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## David Frost

"This thread has been derailed. The topic was what do you look for in a PP dog. I showed what we look for, but that doesn't mean you have to look for the same thing...so, by all means...what do you look for in a PP dog."

It is the thread. Further input should be on what someone else is looking for in a PP dog. If it continues getting personal, it will be closed.

DFrost
__________________


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## maggie fraser

What is someone looking for in a trained ppd?

You mean the client?

How do they know, other than the myth which is perpetuated by many ppd vendors (a commercial business I will add), what they are looking for? and what it is that THEY require!

They're more often than not sold a story, how a ppd dog is the answer to their personal protection insecurities. 

In my humble opinion - it's largely a guise, I would never take someone else's word for it that my dog is the bollocks unless I knew for myself, and not what some salesman told me!

Moral of the story; don't buy a ppd unless you know a thing or two or three about dogs, then you'd probably reconsider!


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## Lee Robinson

Client or trainer. What do you look for. In the opening of this thread, I outlines some of the steps I like to see, but in the dog I like to see balance of drives.

A dog should work in balance. In the photos above that I included in this topic, I chose these photos for a reason. You see a dog working in both prey and defense. You can see forwardness of prey, smooth hair lines, relaxed flews in many pictures, and dogs that are steady pulling into the engagement (not jumping back and forth). You also see defense in many photos, a threatening decoy at which the dog responds towards with a threat display of its own (such as a tightened up flew exposing the teeth). But, you do not see severe stress, nor do you see dogs in flight. Why do you see the defense work but do not see severe stress? Because the dogs are also selected on the basis of prey drive, confidence, and fight drive...and they have a predisposition to handle the work.

Defense is not a bad word. It is ONE component of a total PP dog...but it is a component that can not be ignored. Some of the people I have noticed that they speak "defense" as if something is wrong with it. Sorry to bust that bubble, but even in sports...when SchH was formed a dog had to have a forward response with a degree of defense drive. Did they call it defense...maybe/maybe not...but we all know that SchH work by the old timers was not a game of tug a war, and fortunately even today for some it is not just a game either. A seriously capable PP dog must have both prey and defense.

Defense and prey both (and if you can't see any prey work in those photo or videos then you are blind) are essential in training when one tries to produce a balanced end product.

You occationally see some flews up in some of the pics, but you will also see ears forward, smooth hair on the back/topline, and FORWARD action...where the dog is scratching at the ground trying to pursue engagement. Those photos are OBVIOUSLY not dogs jumping back and forth. Now, the reason they are steady forward but yet aggressive, is because they are balanced.

You have to know how to read the dog.


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## maggie fraser

Your last post Lee is very very subjective.... I would also go as far as to say...indulgent!

It sounds almost a bit like job creation....

Try asking your target market the question what is it they require.... Then, ask yourself if it is an honest way of making a living.


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## Courtney Guthrie

I would look for very friendly ougoing parents, BUT at the drop of a word from their owner, they are barking/guarding their people and making it known that one step closer and you will get bit. Another command from the owner and back to happy happy dogs. 

I also want to see a lot of OB work done and preferably some sport titles on both parents. IF they are that GOOD as PP dogs then a sport title should be a cake walk for them, right? 

Also, they need to have health testing done on Hips, elbows, cardiac and preferably for me, any gentic tests available for their breed. I also want one from a VERY experienced trainer and owner. There are VERY FEW people I'd buy a PP prospect from. 

Courtney


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## Mike Scheiber

Jerry Lyda said:


> Not all. LOL


There are always exceptions


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## Bob Scott

"What to look for in a PPD". :-k

I'd take a trip to them Lyda boys and see how it's supposed to be done.


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## Jerry Lyda

Come on Bob. Love to have any of you guys.


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## jay lyda

Did I hear someone call my name........WHATS UP BOB!!!

Doodle Bug is all you need for a PPD, he fits all the criteria. LOL Isn't that right Bob.


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## Bob Scott

jay lyda said:


> Did I hear someone call my name........WHATS UP BOB!!!
> 
> Doodle Bug is all you need for a PPD, he fits all the criteria. LOL Isn't that right Bob.


I've still got a 12yr old, one eyed, gimpy, nasty little bassid of a JRT that takes care of my heavy duty stuff. 
...........and he's got great off leash control!


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## Chris Michalek

I'll answer the question.

All I want is a dog that will bark on command, at that point you lie your ass off..." this dog will kill you if you come any closer". How they gonna know? It already barks on command so it apprears trained. I think any barking dog in the house will distract a bad guy long enough for me to grab my mossberg. If a barking Rottweiler isn't enough to deter somebody then that means I should consider running away. For PP, nobody needs more than a dog that barks on command. If you need more than that, get your CCW and a glock.

I don't see the point in testing a dog to see if he can take 50 stick hits. That's dumb. Next time try 52 to see if he folds like a house of cards. LOL Screwball.


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## Gillian Schuler

Mia Culpa!

To answer your question Lee, having had quite a few dogs in my time, Molosser, Herder, JRT, etc. my answer would fall similarly to Chris' above. I want a dog that will alert me if something unusual is going on outside. In the night, if one of my dogs barks furiously, and not just their usual "coughing", I turn on the light and if someone is lurking around I can call the police. I don't need more.

I learned once from the police that they had found a plan on one of the criminals they arrested. On it were all our house numbers with a large X on those that had dogs. Not a guarantee that we won't be broken into but reassuring.


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## Butch Cappel

I tell my clients that the first and most important contribution a properly trained protection dog does is deter a potential threat before it ever it starts.
To that end I stress that really crisp OB with a dog that is a team member, 
not just a tool, goes further than anything in creating the impression of the trained security system that will work to the death for it's partner.

There is a reason the military's and police departments worldwide stress professional sharp appearance and eager, sharp OB creates the same visual effect for your dog.

If that fails however, the capable impression needs to be ratcheted up to one of capable violence. Obviously an immediate, aggressive, or maybe even violent response to the alert command will give you the effect you were looking for. I've tried this formula, Eager OB + Aggressive Alert in several third world prisons and crack houses and so far it has had about a 98% effectiveness rating.


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## Thomas Barriano

You wrote:

To that end I stress that really crisp OB with a dog that is a team member, 


Butch,

I agree, but honestly can't say I've seen crisp obedience in any of the K9 ProSports videos I've seen posted. Can you provide a pointer to a video of K9 Pro sport training or competition that illustrates "crisp obedience"


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## Kyle Sprag

Thomas Barriano said:


> You wrote:
> 
> To that end I stress that really crisp OB with a dog that is a team member,
> 
> 
> Butch,
> 
> I agree, but honestly can't say I've seen crisp obedience in any of the K9 ProSports videos I've seen posted. Can you provide a pointer to a video of K9 Pro sport training or competition that illustrates "crisp obedience"


 
You know I was thinking the same thing. All the K9PS videos I have seen were nothing but dogs dragging their handlers around the field on a leash.


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## Butch Cappel

Mr. Sprag,
I was not talking about K9 PRO SPORTS nor do I know who trains the dogs that compete in K9PS, after all they come from three different continents to compete. Nor do I have any knowledge of any videos you may have seen.

Sorry

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## Kyle Sprag

Butch Cappel said:


> Mr. Sprag,
> I was not talking about K9 PRO SPORTS nor do I know who trains the dogs that compete in K9PS, after all they come from three different continents to compete. Nor do I have any knowledge of any videos you may have seen.
> 
> Sorry
> 
> Butch Cappel
> www.k9ps.com


 
OK I will Play,

Care to Explain?, isn't this a dog you trained?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSM-2XBhZXU


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## Jeff Oehlsen

AWESOME ! ! ! ! This is the quality training that I have come to expect.


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## Kyle Sprag

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> AWESOME ! ! ! ! This is the quality training that I have come to expect.


 
Hell Jeff, you think that's Quality work check out these Man Stopers. Nice Decoy work as well. :lol:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMESHysFsUY&feature=related


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## Jerry Lyda

Butch, you forgot to sign post #33.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Always a good time. I saw a video of the "world" champs a few years back where a dog decided that a stuffed toy in a crate was more interesting than the decoy. AWESOME.

Then Butch fended off a Dobe with his clipboard, that was good times.

However he is saying "I was not talking about K9 PRO SPORTS nor do I know who trains the dogs that compete in K9PS, after all they come from three different continents to compete."

I guess he doesn't know Cheryle Carleson ?? Of course I have probably spelled her name wrong. Sorry.


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## Bob Scott

Kyle Sprag said:


> OK I will Play,
> 
> Care to Explain?, isn't this a dog you trained?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSM-2XBhZXU


Be nice now! That lady probably paid good money to have that dog trained.
and pays, and pays, and pays...............and pays some more.

:idea: #-o WOW!Why didn't I think of that?! I think I'm gonna become a PPD trainer too!


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## Lee Robinson

Bob, in all seriousness...you can not blaim Butch for the way that dog worked. A trial field is not a training session. Her issues with her dog would need to be worked out between her and her trainer. She is WAY too actively involved distracting the dog from the decoy. She needs to go back to her trainer to work out the MANY issues displayed in that video...issues that would be a result of her faults and her trainers faults. Have you ever trained with Butch? He certainly knows how to work a dog, but the trial field isn't a training session. There are good and bad dogs in every organization. You can not blaim an organization for the bad examples, just as you can't credit an organization for the good examples. Instead, you can blame it or credit it for the quality of people involved in the organization. The abilities of the dogs would depend upon the handlers and trainers.

The fact that Butch touches the lady with the pole would mean she would fail the civil aggitation test. Which would if anything credit K9PS for not passing that dog based on its performance that day.

Let's at least be honest and objective...despite our differences.

On that note, St. Louis, MI is only about 6 hours from here...should you ever wish to train together let me know.


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Bob, in all seriousness...you can not blaim Butch for the way that dog worked. A trial field is not a training session. Her issues with her dog would need to be worked out between her and her trainer. She is WAY too actively involved distracting the dog from the decoy. She needs to go back to her trainer to work out the MANY issues displayed in that video...issues that would be a result of her faults and her trainers faults. Have you ever trained with Butch? He certainly knows how to work a dog, but the trial field isn't a training session. There are good and bad dogs in every organization. You can not blaim an organization for the bad examples, just as you can't credit an organization for the good examples. Instead, you can blame it or credit it for the quality of people involved in the organization. The abilities of the dogs would depend upon the handlers and trainers.
> 
> The fact that Butch touches the lady with the pole would mean she would fail the civil aggitation test. Which would if anything credit K9PS for not passing that dog based on its performance that day.
> 
> Let's at least be honest and objective...despite our differences.
> 
> On that note, St. Louis, MI is only about 6 hours from here...should you ever wish to train together let me know.


 
Butch was the trainer........:lol:


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## Butch Cappel

That is one I have always wanted to get straight. 

That is a dog that I trained the basic OB and started it's bite work on until it was 16 months old. In that video the dog is around seven and I had not been involved in the training for five and half years. Ask who ever put it up who the trainer was at that time, of course they have already posted one lie so why would they tell the truth now?

And for whoever said that person "paid and paid and paid"? what people dont get, when they see a video is the story. I was the one that tagged that dog out! That got the dog a *zero* if there was any attempt at getting someone to pay and pay why would I *zero *him? If there were any integrity issues I could have missed the tag, but I didn't. 

And yes you did misspell Cheryl Carlson, I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but since you asked? 

As to the Dobe that came after me? Happened much more than once. If you certify working PP dogs from around the world, you don't get to "pre-test" for the softies, you just shows up and takes your chances. 

And before someone goes to screaming "I told you so. No control, NO OBEDIENCE! they should all be shot and fed to a Malinois" Let me add

We have had active duty police dogs (we get a lot of them in K9PS) bite their partners, KNPV champions take out a cameraman on the field, and countless judges (all of whom are either active duty PD handlers or full time professional trainers cause we know they are the real deal) save their bacon with clip boards and other unconventional items that would fit a teed off dogs mouth better than their personal parts. That's is what happens when your not certifying "Jute Junkies" The PP/Patrol dogs Bite for REAL!

Oh and just one more, on the DVD that wrongly says it is a dog I am training. In the first 14 months that _I did train_ that dog it earned an AKC, CD & CGC and placed or won four different protection dog trials.

Since I quit training the dog, it has never earned a title or won a competition of any kind.

My apologies Mr. Frost, I originally posted on the thread topic as per your request a while back, sorry about the detours.


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## Kyle Sprag

I can buy part of what you wrote but as for your previous comments,

Do you have any video of the crisp OB you wrote about?


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## Connie Sutherland

Kyle Sprag said:


> Do you have any video of the crisp OB you wrote about?


I really like video clips of ob. I'll always watch a good ob video.


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## Courtney Guthrie

I like vids of OB as well. They help me see things that I could maybe use with my dog or things not to do.


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## Butch Cappel

I couldn't put a video on the internet if you put a pistol to my head, but thanks for thinking I could. I do have a photo of me working on a CD title here with an exotic breed scroll down a little.
http://web.archive.org/web/20031217113731/bandog.net/butch/butch.htm

And you don't have to think for a minute, that I have a clue as to how to train "crisp OB" that's what my customers are for. thanks again.


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## Connie Sutherland

Butch Cappel said:


> ... And you don't have to think for a minute, that I have a clue as to how to train "crisp OB" that's what my customers are for.


Do you mean that you don't aim for "crisp" and that your clients work on crisping up the OB that you do?



Butch Cappel said:


> I couldn't put a video on the internet if you put a pistol to my head ...


Well, I couldn't either. I sure do appreciate the people who do, though.


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## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> Hell Jeff, you think that's Quality work check out these Man Stopers. Nice Decoy work as well. :lol:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMESHysFsUY&feature=related


Kyle, I am going to guess that someone put this video up to spoof K9PS? Or did K9PS make this video themselves and post it? 
I do have to admit I am glad to see people calling other people out for explanations on the stuff that get posted. It makes me more inclined to dig through the few videos I have to post. what good is posting something and not having you guys rip the shi* out of it? How am I supposed to learn anything if you don’t call me an idiot for certain things, or everything I do?


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## Chris McDonald

This Lee guy is making for better reading then the clucking hens about raw. Not as good as Elmo though.


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## Kyle Sprag

OK Chris, here is a video of some training I did and poste a year ago,


Anyone feel free to critique away


http://blip.tv/file/878348


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## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> OK Chris, here is a video of some training I did and poste a year ago,
> 
> 
> Anyone feel free to critique away
> 
> 
> http://blip.tv/file/878348


That’s pretty fancy stuff! Looks good to me


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jesus, even I could make videos like Lee 

I especially liked the water one where the dog came up with the sleeve and ignored the helper. Now that's a PPD.

It's too bad really, because there are people here with PPD's that would probably rip your arm off..but you know what they say about an empty barrel.


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## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Jesus, even I could make videos like Lee
> 
> I especially liked the water one where the dog came up with the sleeve and ignored the helper. Now that's a PPD.
> 
> It's too bad really, because there are people here with PPD's that would probably rip your arm off..but you know what they say about an empty barrel.


I got videos like them but since I don’t own a kennel I will post them once I get them together in a few days/ weeks/ months, I will get to it though


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## Meng Xiong

Kyle Sprag said:


> OK Chris, here is a video of some training I did and poste a year ago,
> 
> 
> Anyone feel free to critique away
> 
> 
> http://blip.tv/file/878348


 
That vid sucked, so does the training. :^o:grin:


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## Chris Michalek

I couldn't get past the SAR handler trying to act like a cheerleader with her ghetto pom poms


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## Lee Robinson

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Jesus, even I could make videos like Lee
> 
> I especially liked the water one where the dog came up with the sleeve and ignored the helper. Now that's a PPD.


Gerry, perhaps you didn't notice. The one where the dog comes out of the water is on my website and listed under a catagory that is NOT PP DOG, and IN THE VIDEO also, it says "That's prey drive for you."

Perhaps you missed that.I call the dogs the way I see them, especially my own dogs. Go to this link and scroll all the way to the bottom, and you will see that I call it the way it is. I am not a hypocrit. Still, I can appreciate prey drive http://www.chimerakennels.com/videogallery.htm The video you are referring to is "Grit" video #2.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Please tell me that this APBT was NOT sold as a PP dog from you? http://www.chimerakennels.com/ChiefsSecondSession.wmv

I sincerely hope that this is not the type of dog that you strive for. The APBT was NOT bred to do this kind of work and while some can, they are few adn far between, this video coupled with some of your other videos really worry me. I've stayed away from this as I don't train PP and really only plan to dabble in it never really doing anything with it. BUT To me these videos demonstrate Junk Yard dogs or Guard dogs which translates to dangerous dogs with no control or OB. 

Can you post an OB video of ONE of your dogs? I've failed to see any yet! 

Courtney


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## Lee Robinson

http://www.chimerakennels.com/PacMandemo11halfmonths.wmv

Here is a littermate brother to the dog in the video you posted. This dog is 11 months old doing BASIC OB off leash and around other dogs and people. The dog in the video you posted was sold to someone that simply liked that dog, but what is it about that video that "bothers you?" You don't support BSL do you...because saying an APBT shouldn't do PP work is exactly that. Frankly, I think that dog did pretty good for a 2nd session, given that is a decoy was totally green at that time.


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## Lee Robinson

Excuse the poor sentence at the end. That was supposed to say...I think the dog did well considering it was his second session and the fact that the decoy was also totally green at the time that video was made.

And, although I don't believe in BSL, I have sold all my APBT and decided to put all our energy into our Swinford program. Not because the APBT shouldn't do PP work, but because our Swinfords are just more reliable. APBT's can often be easily tricked, in the absence of their handler especially, due to their naturally high prey drive and lack of suspicion....plus we have more than enough Swinfords to work with to keep us busy.


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## Lee Robinson

Here is another dog displaying a heel, send, recall, and out all offleash. http://www.chimerakennels.com/Bullettesuit021706.wmv

another... http://www.chimerakennels.com/K9PSBullette040905.wmv


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## Chris Michalek

Lee Robinson said:


> Excuse the poor sentence at the end. That was supposed to say...I think the dog did well considering it was his second session and the fact that the decoy was also totally green at the time that video was made.


Why would you have a green helper on a green dog? I assume a "totally green decoy" isn't going to be totally great at reading a green dog. 

I have watched all the videos and I have to ask...

What so special about all of this stuff? Am I missing something? I'd bet most of the dogs on this forum could do that stuff - even Coulter's duck dog. Sorry to be stupid about this but maybe I don't know what I'm looking at. What am I supposed to be looking for in these videos? The fact that the dogs bite? They can take a few hits with a stick? They bite sleeves that are practically shoved in their mouths? 

For example: http://www.chimerakennels.com/CourtneyLynnHoldandBark.wmv

how is this PP training? I see a dog barking "for a cookie" and then the "bad guy" chunks the sleeve into the dog's mouth. I've never been a bad guy for real but if I were, you can bet that I wouldn't push my arm into the dogs mouth. Shouldn't a dog trained like this WANT to bite VS HAVE to bite?


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## Lee Robinson

That video is not a demonstration of PP work.Our PP videos are listed at the top of our video page. The video you are pointing out is a video where a young female dog works with one of her young female handlers (a young girl who happens to be my daughter) and with me (I am also a handler of that dog) withholding the sleeve as a tug/reward in order to elicit a bark with no threat and from a trusted person. I don't decoy PP work with my own dogs, as I believe that is counter productive. What you see here is a dog simply trying to get a bite as a reward similiar to working a tug. This was done ON PURPOSE because I don't want the dog high in drive when we are introducing a young girl year old girl (who is now only10 years old and that video was probably 2 or 3 years ago) to handling a dog on leash. It is "BASIC" and simple for that reason. One would think common sense would be more common...as this is rather obvious. This same dog works entirely different when working with a helper that isn't also one of her handlers, as she should do. I would never put defense work into my own dogs...and I would never introduce a child to high drive on leash PP work.


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## Chris Michalek

Lee Robinson said:


> What you see here is a dog simply trying to get a bite as a reward similiar to working a tug.


ok but I didn't see the dog TRYING to do anything. I got me one of Ivan's fancy dogs and he's always trying to get the tug and would never just stand there for me to shove the tug in his mouth. I always make him come forward to get it. So PP training is different in the sense the prey object comes to the dog?


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## Lee Robinson

The idea of a prey bark is to flush the prey item out. Have you ever been around hunting dogs?

Again, I am not interested in putting the dog high in drive while introducing a child to handling a dog on leash. Would you rather I go running and the dog drag the child around while trying to catch me?


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## Chris Michalek

Lee Robinson said:


> The idea of a prey bark is to flush the prey item out. Have you ever been around hunting dogs?



Yes, prey runs away not to. I've never seen a rabbit jump into a dog's mouth.


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## Kyle Sprag

Chris Michalek said:


> Yes, prey runs away not to. I've never seen a rabbit jump into a dog's mouth.


LOL, that's funny.


As for the rest of your comments YOU GET IT, nothing but piss poor work and excuses. :???:


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## Lee Robinson

Again, would you rather me go running and see the child drug on the ground? 

You might also be interested in knowing that the dog is also on a pinch collar in that clip, and when she dove for a bite before the sleeve was presented she was corrected by me (with me handling the dog while working with another decoy) to remain steady and only allowed to bark until the sleeve was presented. All this was done for the CHILD. I wanted the dog to be calm and steady when the girl began working with her. This dog only shows a level of aggression appropriate to the level of conflict...just enough to win. That is why we selected this dog to work with this child. You raise the threat, the dog raises its response. You remain calm, the dog remains forward but steady and calm. Perfect for a little girl to learn K9 handling IMO. Again, one would think common sense would explain the logic behind this to anyone with open eyes...as it is obvious that girl was very young at the time the video was made.

P.S. Sorry about the poor wording in my earlier post. I submitted it after adding some information about the girl's age, which changed the flow of words...and did so without proof reading the post since there is a limited time on the editing feature here. My bad. I will try to be more careful in the future.


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## Lee Robinson

Kyle Sprag said:


> LOL, that's funny.
> 
> 
> As for the rest of your comments YOU GET IT, nothing but piss poor work and excuses. :???:


KS,

If you had a child, and that child was interested in working her dog as a handler...would you find a safe way for her to do so, or would you ignore her request?

And, if you decided to accomidate her, would you give her a dog that was steady and safe...and work the dog with a decoy that the dog knew to prevent the dog from going high in drive? Or, would you say...ah, heck...let's get a crazy dog and a threatening decoy...and let that girl get her butt drug around all over the place so she never wants to do this again?

Where is your common sense?


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> KS,
> 
> If you had a child, and that child was interested in working her dog as a handler...would you find a safe way for her to do so, or would you ignore her request?
> 
> And, if you decided to accomidate her, would you give her a dog that was steady and safe...and work the dog with a decoy that the dog knew to prevent the dog from going high in drive? Or, would you say...ah, heck...let's get a crazy dog and a threatening decoy...and let that girl get her butt drug around all over the place so she never wants to do this again?
> 
> Where is your common sense?


 
No, I would let her work a trained dog with a experienced helper. NOT a green dog with a Green Helper ](*,)


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## Lee Robinson

So, would you like for the decoy to present the sleeve so the dog remains calm? Or, would you like the decoy try to flee so the dog lunges and drags the girl around?

You avoid direct questions and result to personal attacks.

Why not keep it about the dogs? Perhaps because your nature is destructive? You know...you might find productive methods more successful than trash talk.


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> So, would you like for the decoy to present the sleeve so the dog remains calm? Or, would you like the decoy try to flee so the dog lunges and drags the girl around?
> 
> You avoid direct questions and result to personal attacks.
> 
> Why not keep it about the dogs? Perhaps because your nature is destructive? You know...you might find productive methods more successful than your sarcasm.


 
WTF are you babbling about? I would not let a child handle a Green dog with a Green decoy simple as that!


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## Matt Hammond

Butch, Lee Lets see you take the leashes off and do some work. Lets see your dogs do a call off, lets see your dogs bite under gun fire, or stress, all we ever see is a posted dog biting a decoy with a sleeve, then post after post about how good the dog is. Not knocking you I and I am sure many others would like to see anything other then the norm.


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## Lee Robinson

KS, 

Still, you didn't answer the question. Your assuming things about the dog and the decoy that may or may not be true. You have never seen me work a dog. You have never seen that dog work.

Instead of being counter productive and rude...why not just answer the question?

Would you rather the decoy present the sleeve or would you rather the decoy try to flee. It is one or the other. Yet, you don't answer. Well, I am left to assume the reason you don't answer the direct question is simply because you would present the sleeve...as it would be stupid to flee when you are working with a child...as you wouldn't want the child to get hurt.

So, next time, why not just stop being an argumentative person and instead simply keep your conversations in a productive manner? There are better things to spend one's time on than disrespectful arguing.

Matt,

Long time no chat. I hope all is well with you. Anyway, I already have videos like that on this forum, but here is one. Nothing fancy, but it does show an off leash send with command to engage, an off leash out and recall, a re-engagment on an attack without a command, a second off leash out and recall, and a heel off leash. http://www.chimerakennels.com/Bullettesuit021706.wmv You can go back and look or you can simply go to my website if you wish.


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## Chris Michalek

Lee Robinson said:


> Again, would you rather me go running and see the child drug on the ground?


As Kyle points out, I get it... Um, a step BACK teaches the dog to come forward without dragging your daughter to the ground.


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> KS,
> 
> Still, you didn't answer the question. Your assuming things about the dog and the decoy that may or may not be true. You have never seen me work a dog. You have never seen that dog work.
> 
> Instead of being counter productive and rude...why not just answer the question?
> 
> Would you rather the decoy present the sleeve or would you rather the decoy try to flee. It is one or the other. Yet, you don't answer. Well, I am left to assume the reason you don't answer the direct question is simply because you would present the sleeve...as it would be stupid to flee when you are working with a child...as you wouldn't want the child to get hurt.
> 
> So, next time, why not just stop being an argumentative person and instead simply keep your conversations in a productive manner? There are better things to spend one's time on than disrespectful arguing.
> 
> Matt,
> 
> Long time no chat. I hope all is well with you. Anyway, I already have videos like that on this forum. You can go back and look or you can simply go to my website if you wish.


 
Lee,

It is quite clear from the video that the dog does not understand what is being asked (GREEN)

It is quite clear fromt the video that the helper is tentative and unsure with slow and poor sleeve presentation (GREEN)

What more do you want me to say? Its your step-child do what you want.


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## Lee Robinson

How about this..."Do what you want as long as it is safe. Children need responsible adults to lead them. Although I think both the dog and the decoy are green, at least you're responsible enough to select a dog that you can work in a situation safely without needing to put it in high drive."

Anway, that is just a possibility. That way you can say what you think without being rude. You don't have to always only see the negatives. Life is too short to constantly be disrespectful to people you have never met. Its ok to disagree, but there is an old saying that states you get more bees with honey. If you are REALLY into the dogs and quality work, consider this.


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## Lee Robinson

*Here is another productive idea...A mind boggling one perhaps*.

Instead of attacking my post, why not just say what YOU look for in a PP dog. That way, you present what you believe without being rude? 

Did that thought ever occur to you? If you are about the dogs, it would seem that would have been done in your first reply.


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## brad robert

Kyle Sprag said:


> OK Chris, here is a video of some training I did and poste a year ago,
> 
> 
> Anyone feel free to critique away
> 
> 
> http://blip.tv/file/878348


Kyle i really liked your dog and he does some great work but in the OG he looks distracted was there something going on around the dog as he looks as there is an external distraction id like to mention im by no means an expert but just saw this and was a little baffled by it as he seems quite solid and i love the way he punishes the helper when he bites


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris Michalek said:


> Yes, prey runs away not to. I've never seen a rabbit jump into a dog's mouth.


Chris

Haven't you ever heard Bernhard Flinks talk about suicide rabbits in his video :=)


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## Thomas Barriano

you wrote:

I have sold all my APBT and decided to put all our energy into our Swinford program


Lee,

What are you using for breeding stock, if you got rid of all your APBT? I understood a Swinford to be a APBT x English Mastif cross? Are Swinfords breeding true (Swinford x Swinford = Swinford puppies)?


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## Gillian Schuler

I was of the opinion that the Swinford dogs were originally bred from Mastino Napoletano X American Bull Terrier? Obviously there have been other varities in the Molosser field. The Pit Biull was also bred from Filas x American Bull Terriers, or not??


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## Courtney Guthrie

Lee Robinson said:


> Excuse the poor sentence at the end. That was supposed to say...I think the dog did well considering it was his second session and the fact that the decoy was also totally green at the time that video was made.
> 
> And, although I don't believe in BSL, I have sold all my APBT and decided to put all our energy into our Swinford program. Not because the APBT shouldn't do PP work, but because our Swinfords are just more reliable. APBT's can often be easily tricked, in the absence of their handler especially, due to their naturally high prey drive and lack of suspicion....plus we have more than enough Swinfords to work with to keep us busy.


I do not support BSL at al in no way shape or form. BUT there are some things that the APBT should not be doing UNLESS trained by a experienced trainer that knows what they're doing. Your videos still demonstrate junk yard dogs to me. 

If you call that OB no wonder you don't want to do sports. CAn you show a video where the dog is doing OB with OUT having a sleeve or suit around? I'd be curious to see that. 

I'm done here. This looks like nothing more than Joe Schmuck in his backyard teaching his dog to guard it. 

Courtney


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## Lee Robinson

Gillian, that would not be correct. Thomas, that would be correct. That said as briefly as possilbe, let's try to stay on topic. "What would you look for in a PP dog?" Questions about our breeding program can be handled elsewhere. 

Courtney, I certainly could do that. Would you prefer to see that done with an APBT or a Swinford? That said, before I honor your request...would you be willing to stick to the topics in the future and drop the nonsense?

This is a PP forum. I have seen people make way too many off topic comments. Is knowledge on this PP topic lacking by the members of this forum? Is it that people find it safer to disrespect others than actually post on topic? Are you afraid to put your ideas up where others can view what you think so instead you just attack what others do or say?

Very few people that have actually posted on this topic have actuallysaid anything about the topic. Very few people have also disagreed with anything in my orginal post on this topic. What we have seen is a LOT of off topic replies. What is this forum for? PP dogs...So, why not post on topic and use the forum as it was intended to be used. Nothing wrong with FR or other sports. They can be great and etc. That said, there are only 12 FR level II certified decoys in the country. One of those has worked some of my dogs. Since, they have since obtained 2 for PP applications...1 ffor a client of his and the other of which is his wife's personal dog. He is also seeking to obtain 2 more for demo dogs for his business. Now, that is not an add...but it is just a fact that illustrates that some of the off topic nonsense just doesn't have merit when it comes to PP work. Now, since KS posted his FR video and likes to get off topic repeatedly under the basis of assuming that what we do is a joke, certainly he can appreciate the skills and knowledge of a FR level II certified decoy. There are only 12 in the country. Should KS agree to not get into name throwing on a public forum as some people prefer to be low profile, perhaps I may be willing to let him verify this information for himself...as the nonsense is pointless. The topic is PP.


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## Connie Sutherland

Courtney Guthrie said:


> .... Can you post an OB video of ONE of your dogs? .... a video where the dog is doing OB with OUT having a sleeve or suit around? ....





Lee Robinson said:


> http://www.chimerakennels.com/PacMandemo11halfmonths.wmv
> .... This dog is 11 months old doing BASIC OB off leash and around other dogs and people. .... .



Did this URL work for anyone else? 

Lee, can you fix the link?


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## Kyle Sprag

brad robert said:


> Kyle i really liked your dog and he does some great work but in the OG he looks distracted was there something going on around the dog as he looks as there is an external distraction id like to mention im by no means an expert but just saw this and was a little baffled by it as he seems quite solid and i love the way he punishes the helper when he bites


He is distracted by Me. There was no blind for me to go in so He could see me standing there.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lee Robinson said:


> Gillian, that would not be correct. Thomas, that would be correct. That said as briefly as possilbe, let's try to stay on topic. "What would you look for in a PP dog?" Questions about our breeding program can be handled elsewhere.
> 
> Courtney, I certainly could do that. Would you prefer to see that done with an APBT or a Swinford? That said, before I honor your request...would you be willing to stick to the topics in the future and drop the nonsense?
> 
> This is a PP forum. I have seen people make way too many off topic comments. Is knowledge on this PP topic lacking by the members of this forum? Is it that people find it safer to disrespect others than actually post on topic? Are you afraid to put your ideas up where others can view what you think so instead you just attack what others do or say?
> 
> Very few people that have actually posted on this topic have actuallysaid anything about the topic. Very few people have also disagreed with anything in my orginal post on this topic. What we have seen is a LOT of off topic replies. What is this forum for? PP dogs...So, why not post on topic and use the forum as it was intended to be used. Nothing wrong with FR or other sports. They can be great and etc. That said, there are only 12 FR level II certified decoys in the country. One of those has worked some of my dogs. Since, they have since obtained 2 for PP applications...1 ffor a client of his and the other of which is his wife's personal dog. He is also seeking to obtain 2 more for demo dogs for his business. Now, that is not an add...but it is just a fact that illustrates that some of the off topic nonsense just doesn't have merit when it comes to PP work. Now, since KS posted his FR video and likes to get off topic repeatedly under the basis of assuming that what we do is a joke, certainly he can appreciate the skills and knowledge of a FR level II certified decoy. There are only 12 in the country. Should KS agree to not get into name throwing on a public forum as some people prefer to be low profile, perhaps I may be willing to let him verify this information for himself...as the nonsense is pointless. The topic is PP.


Lee,

Wow it is amazing in the short time that you've been on this list

You've made over 100 posts.

Argued with and Alienated more than a few senior list members

Presumed to lecture us about everything under the sun from 
Ivan Balabanov to French Ring and everything in between.

Posted more self promoting pictures and pointers to your website, then anyone in the history of the list.

Now you're giving lectures about staying on topic ROTFLMFAO


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## Randy Allen

Around and around it goes...................................................

And another PPD thread goes down the toilet


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## Chris Michalek

I doubt one of his dogs or training would have helped me last night.


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## Lee Robinson

Connie, I fixed the link. Let me know if you still have problems with it. It is nothing "formal" by any means, but it does show an APBT off leash safely around other dogs and people (as obviously someone is holding the camera) and that is complient to commands. My web provider has a problem converting movie files into flv files for some reason. It is an annoying, but continuing problem that simply requires me to reupload the videos from time to time. Try it now. http://www.chimerakennels.com/PacMandemo11halfmonths.wmv


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## Gillian Schuler

Chris, I doubt it either.

Don't damn your own dogs - be realistic - lock your doors.


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## Connie Sutherland

Lee Robinson said:


> Connie, I fixed the link. Let me know if you still have problems with it. It is nothing "formal" by any means, but it does show an APBT off leash safely around other dogs and people (as obviously someone is holding the camera) and that is complient to commands. ..... Try it now. http://www.chimerakennels.com/PacMandemo11halfmonths.wmv


The link works now. Thank you.


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## Courtney Guthrie

The link does work now. It is ok OB. Definetely shows that he is really well mannered around other dogs and heels and halts very well!! What about downs, sits, call offs, downs in motion etc.? 

My APBT is by no means a "trained" PP dog and never will be. She has genetic physical as well as mental issues. She is a little unstable although the average joe would never know it. BUT I have no doubts that she would bite someone that was a threat to her or her house/me. I can post a video of her doing OB like I asked about above if you'd like Lee. BUT this dog has NEVER been trained in defense as she has enough of that on her own and she has never been on a suit. She has had basic beginning Schutzhund bitework done and we stopped that as she got too defensive and unstable as she got older. 

ETA~BTW in my first post on this thread, I said what *I* looked for in a PP dog. It does not fit your criteria but the question was "What do *YOU* look for in a PP dog? My idea of a PP is pretty high and honestly, I only know of one group that has dogs like I described. 

Courtney


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