# Sali in the real world update



## Matt Vandart

Happy now Rick? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1H9yZoMt4Y&feature=youtu.be


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## Catherine Gervin

she is a really lovely looking girl! also, i like her collar!


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## Nicole Stark

Matt, I'll bet you some nice cheese for that big ole juicy rat you live with Rick won't be satisfied with that. ha ha. If I'm wrong you'll have to ask Tubbs what kind of cheese he might like to enjoy from the beams over your kitchen.


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## David C DeSimone

Nice! Good looking dog.


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## rick smith

Happy now Rick? 
meaning .... ????

fwiw, i'm most always happy :razz:

sorry, but i don't get why this clip was aimed at me ??


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## Matt Vandart

rick smith said:


> Happy now Rick?
> meaning .... ????
> 
> fwiw, i'm most always happy :razz:
> 
> sorry, but i don't get why this clip was aimed at me ??


Rick don't tell me I spent all that time teaching Sali to stay in a traditional heel position and you don't appreciate it 8-[


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## Gillian Schuler

Sorry Matt, haven't been following this properly. Apart from the fact that she behaved well with you, I have to ask - why was she panting so much?


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## Matt Vandart

Just back from the training field.


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## rick smith

Matt
-- hard to follow your train of thought when it is a one liner 
you know i like Sali. i have told you that before
i have commented on your vids with her before
the heeling was nice and i appreciate the vid. if u want specific constructive comments i will post some, but i didn't think u were looking for any in that clip

my Q was : why did you start the thread by asking me if i'm happy now ??
it implies i wasn't happy before 
...or it might have implied you were answering my request that i'd like to see dogs titled in bite work out in crowded public places ;-)

- since most of my work is with family dogs i am BIG on seeing dogs out in public dealing with the real world distractions of clueless non-dog people, sights, sounds, smells and all the other distractions that come with that environment.
- for me, backyard work and work in secluded areas has its place, but it is not as challenging as what i consider the real world, and, as i have written many times, we RARELY get those types of videos
* i think that's what Nicole was referring to 

but regardless of what i would like to see in any particular video, i still enjoy watching most ANY video here
- if it's about dog work and isn't muffled by music //rotflmao//
- there's always something to be learned and there is always a way to do it better the next time

btw, i found some old vids i want to post using vimeo. i like that format and now i have a computer that has the power to use it
can u (or anyone) walk me thru how to post em here using vimeo ???


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## rick smith

went to vimeo
joined
ripped off :twisted:
posted ONE vid and already exceeded my limit ](*,)
not sure if i wanna pay 60 bucks to get the "plus" version :twisted:


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## rick smith

any alternatives other than yootoobe ??????????


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## rick smith

testing......
http://vimeo.com/user36857993

does this vid show up ?
first time out at nite 
first time around a coffee shop with strangers
first time taking a treat
...just desensitizing to strangers in the real world with a dog who definitely bites 

focus is not very good but he was fairly neutral and does show how i control feeding with a stranger with no petting, etc

slice it dice it and shred away !!!


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## Nicole Stark

rick smith said:


> - for me, backyard work and work in secluded areas has its place, but it is not as challenging as what i consider the real world, and, as i have written many times, we RARELY get those types of videos
> * i think that's what Nicole was referring to
> can u (or anyone) walk me thru how to post em here using vimeo ???


Yes, when I said you wouldn't be happy with his video that is what I was referring to. I've been wondering about this request of yours to see videos of titled dogs out in the "real world". Why was it that you made that request to begin with? Did you ever get at least one that you found to your satisfaction? If not what was lacking?

As you know none of my dogs are titled in protection sports. But what if the "real world", such as mine in Alaska differs greatly from yours in Japan? In fact, since so few of our members live where you do, I'd be inclined to argue that your world represents less of the real world than it does for most of the WDF members. More to the point, what if one's "real world" isn't one that involves or even offers access to taking their dogs through crowded areas where people aren't particularly mindful of one another and are basically flowing around in condition white? 

So, let's start somewhere using the relatively brief example I gave in another thread of a dog under relatively loose control of another handler in the dogs "real world" competition environment. Since I already know it's not going to meet your criteria given the absence of a title in a protection sport, if she were, besides the environment not being crowded enough for you what additional criteria would you want added to satisfy whatever you're wanting to see?

I've never been interested your requests before now because my dogs don't meet your initial criteria but let's pretend that Spy vs Spy looking one does, and accepting the fact that I don't live in a place like you do, what would you ask to be offered to satisfy whatever you are looking for? I also wonder, why you think your environment represents a more real world than say my own does? The fact that I cannot duplicate yours doesn't make it any less real world than mine is. 

And, BTW why is EweTube not an option for you?


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## Nicole Stark

rick smith said:


> testing......
> http://vimeo.com/user36857993
> 
> does this vid show up ?


Yes, and thank you for finally confirming something I have suspected all along. I appreciate the share. Out of curiosity what circumstances brought this dog to you?


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## rick smith

Nicole....i'm not looking for "satisfaction" ](*,)

i just posted a vid in the "real world of japan"...
actually around a lot of americans at starbucks //lol//

it is typical of what i do to work with an aggressive dog in public and it may not seem like much but it was a challenge for this dog ;-)

japan is a crowded environment...i'm sure it's like a lot of other places in the world
- and great for getting a dog used to crowded places; where some people live and frequently take their dogs

- i am talking about working a dog around strange new people, with people who are clueless about dogs, not just in secluded places or on country roads where no one is around etc 
- that's what my definition of crowded public places is. i thought it was pretty clear the first time i ever described it 

as far as "titled" goes, that was only because a titled dog has done (certified,controlled) bite work with decoys, etc 
*** but don't take that as such a stringent "requirement" i am trying to lay on anyone 

is this any clearer ?

the people at starbucks in that cllip were (IMO) ... clueless strangers //lol//
- i refer to them as "training aids" //lol//


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## rick smith

Nicole -- a dog out in the country CERTAINLY has environmental challenges
i am NOT degrading that as an "inferior" real world 

i'm not saying my world is more real than yours //lol//

i was talking mostly about aggressive dogs who have had live bites on people and to desensitise that i feel the dog needs to be taught how to be neutral around PEOPLE in urban settings

crittering would be an example of a problem that props up more in a rural environment

fwiw, we have plenty of rural areas close by to work on those issues too. lots of wild boar in nearby hills and deep forests //lol//

i gave a background on how the gsd came to me in japan in another thread


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## Nicole Stark

rick smith said:


> as far as "titled" goes, that was only because a titled dog has done (certified,controlled) bite work with decoys, etc
> *** but don't take that as such a stringent "requirement" i am trying to lay on anyone
> 
> is this any clearer ?


She has been trained in that context, so she meets the criteria. And yup, it all makes sense now… I'll let Matt take another crack at it if he wants to.

Just one more question, if you don't mind. If you didn't have the emoticon of this to use ](*,) what words might you choose to use in it's place?


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## rick smith

i use that face when i'm a bit frustrated ;-)


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## Nicole Stark

rick smith said:


> i was talking mostly about aggressive dogs who have had live bites on people and to desensitise that i feel the dog needs to be taught how to be neutral around PEOPLE in urban settings
> 
> i gave a background on how the gsd came to me in japan in another thread


Oh. So that's the dog. I see.

As to that first part. You're in the wrong forum if that's what you were expecting to see duplicated.


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## Nicole Stark

rick smith said:


> i use that face when i'm a bit frustrated ;-)


You might want to stop doing that. It makes it look like you frustrate easily and don't know how to communicate very well. In fact, it is somewhat suggestive of the possibility that you might be both an ineffective communicator and evaluator of situations that are right in front of you. :-\"


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## rick smith

i wanted to post a pic of a bite i got from that gsd
LOTS of people here don't believe me when i say something ;-)

that starbucks vid might be interpreted as a big lazy easy going shepherd; which he was NOT .... in fact he had destroyed a chain link fence before in three or four bites and had titanium caps put on to repair the damage 

- that pic would have put things in the proper perspective of what i was dealing with around those navy folks ;-)

first time watchers cannot see how much progress was shown in that simple vid, and that is one other reason why i've never bothered posting these boring "pet videos"

but the WDF is dying these days so i might post some more //lol//


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## Nicole Stark

So your solution to not being heard is showing an illustration of a head banging on the wall? Ever think that it might be more effective to try and say something a different way if you want to be heard? It might be worth a try.

You are way off base regarding your statement of first time watchers and what they may or may not pick up within a single video, especially this one. Your "progress" with that dog was duly noted. Showing me a bite would not have convinced me of anything that wasn't already fairly obvious to begin with.


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## rick smith

Nicole
re : "As to that first part. You're in the wrong forum if that's what you were expecting to see duplicated."
- what does this mean ?
- please elaborate

Matt 
hope you realise the vid i posted was NOT in any way posted as a "response" to your vid. it was posted because i got a new computer and found it and is an example of how i train in public. nothing more nothing less and sorry your thread has gotten way of track
- but that is nothing new on the WDF these days //rotflmao//

any comments on the vid are more than welcome ... from anyone; since i have received many complaints of never posting any vids


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## Matt Vandart

I liked the vid  , looks like a nice dog, if he was a mean mofo you have done well there dude, still looks a bit edgy to me tbh though, if not edgy then deffo not 100% comfortable.

Don't matter if the thread goes off topic, my work here is done, lol

Nah seriously, more vids would be very cool 

Re: specification of vid
I do believe my response thread to your five buck challenge actually satisfied such a specification seeing as Tilly has had a live bite and is seen in my vid strolling among respectable level of crowdage off lead and Becca has also done bitework up to a point, when her work ethic allows it, lol. 

Neither are titled, licensed, certified or have any other third party opinion attached to them though so I spose they don't, (the work ethic issue prohibits such aspirations sadly  ) but then again I can't remember what the specification of the thread was, but I think you just won it and along with it the internetz.

I got nailed the other day too, by a dog whose owner should never have been allowed to buy such an animal, it sucked, but it made me happy with my progress with Sali though  .

In response to your thread about pictures, put them on photo bucket or photodump and use the image link above ^^


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## susan tuck

Matt Vandart said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1H9yZoMt4Y&feature=youtu.be


Hey Matt she's looking really good, nice work.
8)

...and Rik...GESUNDHEIT!


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## Matt Vandart

Thanks  and lolz


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## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> i wanted to post a pic of a bite i got from that gsd
> LOTS of people here don't believe me when i say something


Thanks for posting. What a lovely dog. After seeing the video, I can see why you got bites off of that dog. Based on some of the body language, I think you were fortunate to not get one in front of all those starbuck folks.


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## Nicole Stark

ha ha, I can just see it now. Fear and loathing at Starbucks in Japan.

Rick, I'm not sure I can answer your question. What part of my response don't you understand? I mean, it's pretty clear here that the sport folks don't want live bites, the PPD people hope to never have to find themselves in that situation, and the cops and military guys that do get live bites have no reason to do that with the dogs that do.


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## rick smith

mostly at Sarah … but at others too 

Sarah
you only quoted two lines of my post ... but you still misquoted me 
i NEVER said i got biteS from that dog ... that was YOUR exaggeration
- i got bit ONCE by that dog 
- it happens with aggressive dogs sometimes; the key is to not make it habit forming by not allowing the dog to think aggressive behaviour and biting will get it what it wants 

- most likely, either you didn't retain much of my lengthy background i wrote about this dog...or you just didn't believe what i wrote 
- when that dog nailed me it was when it was with the owner and in a TOTALLY different setting than that coffee shop session

you also wrote that you could see in that video why i got bites from that dog ... how ??
- after many many months of daily work with that dog on an almost 24/7 basis, and in a huge variety of challenging situations, the dog never bit me again and i trusted it 99% (which is the max i ever trust any dog, including my own)
- i developed a GOOD bond with that dog early on. i didn't take the bite to heart even tho the day it bit me the owner said she wanted to put it down IMMEDIATELY. she had had enough of the bites in her own home but she hadn't dealt with them. actually took a few days to talk her out of it and glad she changed her mind. but you would have to have seen the bite....nasty chunk taken.....NOT a couple of punctures with some swelling....the dog was lightning fast when it committed to a bite 

furthermore, since you never saw the situation of the bite i DID get, how could you qualify that comment based on that short video ? 
- please explain, since imo, the dog in that video showed me NO body language that he was anywhere near giving anyone a bite ... me included
- since you don't agree, state why you don’t, but don’t imply my work is not safe. SAFETY is the primary factor in ANY training i do and i have NEVER had any dog i’m working with bite a stranger. NEVER. NADA. not one time !

i also don't know if you were talking about my body language or the dog's body language….so exactly why were you surprised i didn't get another bite in that video ?

i respect your knowledge of the work you do, but i don't know how many aggressive dogs who have bitten people you have worked with and rehabbed.
- i’m no Ivan or Michael Ellis, so if you are basically saying i was acting reckless, you are certainly entitled to do so.
- but since that was a problem free session, under control (imo) at al times, you should also be humble enough to accept that this might be an effective way to Desensitise a dog with aggression issues who has bitten humans
- with NO Ecollars … no prongs…no pinches.
**** we have had TONS of people come on the WDF with this type of problem and i think it deserves to be discussed in detail, not one liners !!!!
**** mostly what we get here is "Ecollars are your friend”, or "GET SOME OB ON THE DOG”…… or "stick to the threeD rule and gradually approach the distractions when the dog is conflict free"

so for Nicole :
i think this type of training vid is DEFINITELY appropriate for this forum !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it has been discussed verbally many many times, but RARELY with a video of how to deal with it
- it is NOT an uncommon problem with dog owners
- even if there were no live bites and the dog is simply an out of control asshole in public and lights up too easily. NO NEED TO WAIT FOR LIVE BITE to happen //lol//
- it has nothing to do with training or working with sport dogs, psd’s or mwd's

Catherine :
- she has been talking about this type of problem for YEARS … has she posted any videos of the training used to try and fix the problem ??? has anyone asked her ???

Susan :
for my comments … english or japanese please …. unless its a german dog command //lol//

next… at that stage of his training, i already knew how much i could trust him, and i knew he could pass that little drill with flying colors 
- imo these drills are what HELPS a dog in the long run and changes their behaviour for the better

Sarah
since you haven't (and won't) see the HUNDREDS of other sessions i had with that dog, you are hardly in a position to judge the effectiveness of that one session
- the fact that it was uneventful and possibly boring to watch is actually one of the reasons i considered that session a good one //lol//

Matt ;
again sorry to take the thread elsewhere; but haven’t you had similar issues with Sali in public ? do you see any serious merit in my training approach ?
- are these vids INappropriate for this forum ???
- do you think it’s just “rick’s way” that shouldn’t be tried in public cause it might get you bit, etc etc ???

but still, Sarah,(or anyone else), i would like to see the specifics of what i did that almost got a bite. 
- i’m concerned with that statement and i think it would help make this a real discussion that others could get a takeaway from
- i hope other lurkers watch this but i hope they are not watching something dangerous, so i can't accept your zinger unless you back it up with details as to why it is either dangerous or reckless, etc

i have never tried to hide the fact i train in public and make the dog confront its problems head on.
- i also train a LOT with muzzles. i hope you have remembered i have said that MANY times here. 
* please note the dog was NOT in a muzzle. he was WAY beyond that stage, and it should have been another indicator he was getting MUCH safer in public. if he wasn't that far along he would have been in his muzzle. period
anyway, i don't expect you to have memorized my system //lol// 
....but i have one....it is progressive and incremental. it is done step by step and i consider it a SAFE way to train a behaviour that is obviously inherently dangerous

last but not least 
i can’t post vids of other people’s dogs without their permission….most don’t want their problems hashed out in a forum anywhere. i respect that. many here don’t even consider that when they hassle me to post vids to back up what i say :-(
- this dog falls into a diifferent category and i could post more if we can actually make it a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion topic

but i’m not interested in the one liners and tweet type comments

off the soapbox //lol//


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## rick smith

self critique of my vid ....

two things that could def stand improvement the next time around
1. when i first brought the dog close to the black girl i was not in the best control position. i should have been more between the dog and her. for me that is a BIG mistake, as i always stress that the handler needs to be in the middle
- it was in the 40's and almost 100% humidity that day but even tho he was a bit winded, i shouldn't have slacked off with my positioning and stayed between him. it's a rule i should stick with even as the trust in the dog gets better
- also, when that idiot in the blu coveralls showed up i shoulda moved the dog
2. his focus was only so so and he ignored quite a few simple commands that he knew well.
(always two options : 1. correct or 2. nope, and give another command that WILL get complianc)
- in that situation i would have been smarter to quickly give another simple command that would have been followed. his achtung/look was always good, so i prob should have used that one more. plus i had already taught him a lot of small easy no brainer stuff that i coulda used
3. at that level of his training i coulda had the white (talkative) girl in the middle switch seats with the black girl and used her for a training aid too


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## Matt Vandart

Well isn't this thread therapeutic, all we need is Micheal Murphy to join in.......... \\/


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## Matt Vandart

> Matt ;
> again sorry to take the thread elsewhere; but haven’t you had similar issues with Sali in public ? do you see any serious merit in my training approach ?
> - are these vids INappropriate for this forum ???
> - do you think it’s just “rick’s way” that shouldn’t be tried in public cause it might get you bit, etc etc ???


If that dog was ever like Sali then you indeed have done a good job dude.

I see merit in everything.

Last question I don't understand at all.

Some observations, you appear to be ignoring a **** ton of calming signals coming from that dog was this for a reason?

Dog looks like it just wants to go to be honest, could be due to boredom I spose. 

Dog is 'up front' as you walk away.

Dog doesn't look like he wants to nail anybody tbh that would be an indicator that 'Ricks way' is effective. 

Man int' pub says you have done a fine job


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## Matt Vandart

Actaully it was the missus and she is way better trainer than I


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## Nicole Stark

Matt Vandart said:


> Well isn't this thread therapeutic, all we need is Micheal Murphy to join in.......... \\/


For sure then we can get the guaranteed nut ticks that always seem to surface when he does.


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## rick smith

Matt ;
regarding my last question ...

i wrote this to explain the reason for posting the vid : "i was talking mostly about aggressive dogs who have had live bites on people and to desensitise that i feel the dog needs to be taught how to be neutral around PEOPLE in urban settings”

Nicole responded this way to that comment : "As to that first part. You're in the wrong forum if that's what you were expecting to see duplicated.”

i am trying to see of others felt the same way since i feel these types of vids are exactly what a lot of people could benefit from 
- didn't get at all what she meant by being in the wrong forum, plus i don't know what she meant by "duplicated"
- similar vids posted ???

who knows ; water over the bridge now anyway

re : the "xxxx ton" of calming signals ....
i've always felt a great way to see if a dog is stressed is to see if it will take treats. if they are really stressed there is NO way they will, so that is one reason i like to use them. this dog had NO probs in that area for the duration of the session

he wasn't overjoyed to meet those table folks ... never did that drill before
- of course they all wanted to pet him 

at first he seemed more interested to join the table but i did not want that happening for obvious reasons so i checked him up at the beginning when he started to move in

yes, i kept him there when he probably would have wanted to move on, but the whole drill was to work with him and keep him in close proximity to clueless people 

as far as walking away, the vid was cut off. he ALWAYS was a bad leash puller but at that point he had already improved 100% and would back up and stop pulling. notice when he first thought it was "game over" and he thought we were leaving 
- that's why i gave him one more platz and fed him on his paw, etc 

i have more of him walking around ...he was also an obsessive leg lifting marker :-(
- the vids show big improvements in both areas

- also have one when he goes ballistic and wants to eat a small, calm toy poodle //lol//

but as far as calming signals, i sure missed all of them
- could you point em out ?
i'll settle for a half a ton //lol//


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## Nicole Stark

rick smith said:


> Nicole responded this way to that comment : "As to that first part. You're in the wrong forum if that's what you were expecting to see duplicated.”
> 
> i am trying to see of others felt the same way since i feel these types of vids are exactly what a lot of people could benefit from
> 
> 
> 
> Rick knock it off already. No one, not even me in my last PM to you, has ever said they were not beneficial. In fact a number of people have posted videos of dogs like this over the years. Yours was certainly not the holy grail by any means. This is the type of BS I was referring to in my PM with respect to you dissecting responses from others and turning it into some sort of this is right and that is wrong dialogue and then going on, and on, and on, and on about it. STOP and move on.
> 
> What you fail to realize is the lack of response to your video represents something you are entirely oblivious to. You interpret the absence of commentary as the masses not seeing something you have discovered that others haven't quite yet reached in their training experience. Or even that some how it goes over our heads what great things are taking place and this is why no one is commenting. For sure, we're all missing signs, overlooking your progress from hundreds of sessions, the fact that the dog is capable of biting and surely appearing to be some big lazy oaf to the rest of us.
> 
> Please. This is about as close to the Don Turnipseed debacle as you can get. One primary difference is, it didn't take me soliciting and eventually securing someone from 4000-5000 miles away to flush that out. You did it yourself. Sure, you have clients and that *can* restrict what you post about these dogs in video form but interestingly enough it doesn't seem to filter the putrid commentary that flows from your mouth about these clients of yours. Utter trash and a disgusting lack of professionalism.


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## rick smith

holy crap Nicole; if you get up on the wrong side of the bed don't take it out on ME !

just wanted to see if others felt i was in the wrong forum too ;-)
... get over it

sure, i try VERY hard to be clear in my posts
but that does NOT mean i think i am the dogman of the century and posting the holy grail of videos for christs sakes //ROTFLMFAO//

likening me to Don is a real stretch :razz::razz::razz:

why you think i'm being "defensive" and "getting on my high horse" when i try and explain something further is beyond me and i'm not gonna spend any time worrying about it

but this last tirade (at least for me) is the kind of crap that makes this forum sickening to read sometimes

last but not least...
many people have sent me PM's who said they appreciated the detail i include in my posts and have NO problems understanding what i write. you are the only one in all the years i have been on the WDF who told me my posts are hard to understand :roll:
- put that in your pipe and smoke it :razz:

lets get back to dogs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Nick Hrycaj

Getting back to dogs,

Why would you hold the treat givers hand? Say hypothetically your dog wants to tag that lady, you are now increasing the chance of dogs success by holding her hand in place...

You were betwen camera and dog when you told it something to the affect of focus on me. Did he actually focus?


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## rick smith

holding the hand...
couple reasons why i do this
1. with kids and some timid people, they often jerk their hand away when the dog touches them with its mouth. for some dogs, this movement triggers a prey reaction and the dog goes for the hand. it doesn't necessarily mean the dog will bite, but when i hold the hand i can keep that from happening at all. i don't allow them to pull away. this happens in about a third of the situations, and even with adults, so i consider it an extra level of safety.
2. when i am holding the hand, i feel the dog is to some degree eating from "me", and i feel that takes away some conflict for the dog and also makes it safer

yeah, camera angle was a bad set up. i was almost gonna tell my wife to move around.
- yes - good eye contact at that time
- if you look close you might be able to see his right ear rotate a bit. he did give me good eye contact. that was always a strong point for that dog. i used german commands for most of his stuff cause he was started in that language
- and when i first started to teach him to take treats i would always give an achtung b4 marking and giving it, so that also made it easier to take it from others


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## rick smith

Nick
hypothetically you are correct of course 

but i think dogs are not multi taskers. they are either in a biting mood or a eating mood but never both at the same time //lol//

of course i have to know the dog i'm working with and i won't allow other people to hold a treat until i am confident the dog WANTS treats. hundreds of reps precede this. the dog is on auto pilot. in this case he already had numerous reps before we ever came to that table. i knew what state of mind he was in

i've always believed you can feed a dog MUCH safer than you can pet it

at a later level of training i sometimes let people pet the dog, but i also give a demo of the how, where and type of stroke to use before they do it, and then i also hold their hand too 
- i never allow "free petting" 

knock on wood ... never had a stranger bitten


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## rick smith

now that i think about it, that dog had a better "look" than my house dog.

he was really impressive that way and people would often comment about it when we were out


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## rick smith

worked with a bull terrier that was deaf. HORRIBLY handling sensitive with a strong bite. would never let people pet him, but people of all ages could feed him all day long with absolutely no problems at all. go figure ???

the owners also had his litter mate and never had that problem with that dog. maybe just genetics, but i always suspected it might have been due to the litter mate harassing it at home


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## jamie lind

rick smith said:


> i wanted to post a pic of a bite i got from that gsd
> LOTS of people here don't believe me when i say something


A picture of the scar would be good.


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## rick smith

a picture of the scar would be good for what ????


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## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> mostly at Sarah … but at others too
> 
> Sarah
> you only quoted two lines of my post ... but you still misquoted me
> i NEVER said i got biteS from that dog ... that was YOUR exaggeration
> - i got bit ONCE by that dog
> - it happens with aggressive dogs sometimes; the key is to not make it habit forming by not allowing the dog to think aggressive behaviour and biting will get it what it wants
> 
> - most likely, either you didn't retain much of my lengthy background i wrote about this dog...or you just didn't believe what i wrote
> - when that dog nailed me it was when it was with the owner and in a TOTALLY different setting than that coffee shop session
> 
> you also wrote that you could see in that video why i got bites from that dog ... how ??
> - after many many months of daily work with that dog on an almost 24/7 basis, and in a huge variety of challenging situations, the dog never bit me again and i trusted it 99% (which is the max i ever trust any dog, including my own)
> - i developed a GOOD bond with that dog early on. i didn't take the bite to heart even tho the day it bit me the owner said she wanted to put it down IMMEDIATELY. she had had enough of the bites in her own home but she hadn't dealt with them. actually took a few days to talk her out of it and glad she changed her mind. but you would have to have seen the bite....nasty chunk taken.....NOT a couple of punctures with some swelling....the dog was lightning fast when it committed to a bite
> 
> furthermore, since you never saw the situation of the bite i DID get, how could you qualify that comment based on that short video ?
> - please explain, since imo, the dog in that video showed me NO body language that he was anywhere near giving anyone a bite ... me included
> - since you don't agree, state why you don’t, but don’t imply my work is not safe. SAFETY is the primary factor in ANY training i do and i have NEVER had any dog i’m working with bite a stranger. NEVER. NADA. not one time !
> 
> i also don't know if you were talking about my body language or the dog's body language….so exactly why were you surprised i didn't get another bite in that video ?
> 
> i respect your knowledge of the work you do, but i don't know how many aggressive dogs who have bitten people you have worked with and rehabbed.
> - i’m no Ivan or Michael Ellis, so if you are basically saying i was acting reckless, you are certainly entitled to do so.
> - but since that was a problem free session, under control (imo) at al times, you should also be humble enough to accept that this might be an effective way to Desensitise a dog with aggression issues who has bitten humans
> - with NO Ecollars … no prongs…no pinches.
> **** we have had TONS of people come on the WDF with this type of problem and i think it deserves to be discussed in detail, not one liners !!!!
> **** mostly what we get here is "Ecollars are your friend”, or "GET SOME OB ON THE DOG”…… or "stick to the threeD rule and gradually approach the distractions when the dog is conflict free"
> 
> so for Nicole :
> i think this type of training vid is DEFINITELY appropriate for this forum !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> it has been discussed verbally many many times, but RARELY with a video of how to deal with it
> - it is NOT an uncommon problem with dog owners
> - even if there were no live bites and the dog is simply an out of control asshole in public and lights up too easily. NO NEED TO WAIT FOR LIVE BITE to happen //lol//
> - it has nothing to do with training or working with sport dogs, psd’s or mwd's
> 
> Catherine :
> - she has been talking about this type of problem for YEARS … has she posted any videos of the training used to try and fix the problem ??? has anyone asked her ???
> 
> Susan :
> for my comments … english or japanese please …. unless its a german dog command //lol//
> 
> next… at that stage of his training, i already knew how much i could trust him, and i knew he could pass that little drill with flying colors
> - imo these drills are what HELPS a dog in the long run and changes their behaviour for the better
> 
> Sarah
> since you haven't (and won't) see the HUNDREDS of other sessions i had with that dog, you are hardly in a position to judge the effectiveness of that one session
> - the fact that it was uneventful and possibly boring to watch is actually one of the reasons i considered that session a good one //lol//
> 
> Matt ;
> again sorry to take the thread elsewhere; but haven’t you had similar issues with Sali in public ? do you see any serious merit in my training approach ?
> - are these vids INappropriate for this forum ???
> - do you think it’s just “rick’s way” that shouldn’t be tried in public cause it might get you bit, etc etc ???
> 
> but still, Sarah,(or anyone else), i would like to see the specifics of what i did that almost got a bite.
> - i’m concerned with that statement and i think it would help make this a real discussion that others could get a takeaway from
> - i hope other lurkers watch this but i hope they are not watching something dangerous, so i can't accept your zinger unless you back it up with details as to why it is either dangerous or reckless, etc
> 
> i have never tried to hide the fact i train in public and make the dog confront its problems head on.
> - i also train a LOT with muzzles. i hope you have remembered i have said that MANY times here.
> * please note the dog was NOT in a muzzle. he was WAY beyond that stage, and it should have been another indicator he was getting MUCH safer in public. if he wasn't that far along he would have been in his muzzle. period
> anyway, i don't expect you to have memorized my system //lol//
> ....but i have one....it is progressive and incremental. it is done step by step and i consider it a SAFE way to train a behaviour that is obviously inherently dangerous
> 
> last but not least
> i can’t post vids of other people’s dogs without their permission….most don’t want their problems hashed out in a forum anywhere. i respect that. many here don’t even consider that when they hassle me to post vids to back up what i say
> - this dog falls into a diifferent category and i could post more if we can actually make it a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion topic
> 
> but i’m not interested in the one liners and tweet type comments
> 
> off the soapbox //lol//


My, My, My rick you certainly love to write a novel. I had forgotten how horribly sensitive you are and highly reactive to perceived slights. I’m told that handlers (and dogs) take on the traits of the other. Since you train with a lot of aggressive and reactive dogs, I can understand where this comes from. 

I read your very long post(s) pretty carefully. You are right that, according to the previous post, you stated you had received only one bite from this dog and in my comment I had written “bites”. My apologies. I didn’t see the need to quote the entire book to support my comment so I snipped it down.

I liked the video but as Matt pointed out you appeared to be ignoring a lot of calming signals and other signs of stress coming from the dog. Either you didn’t see or chose to ignore or saw but opted to proceed in spite of the signals being put out by the dog. Everything from the way it laid down in one instance, to the way it ducked his head and turned aside at another [which is where I felt you barely avoided a bite], plus several other instances along with the increasing respiratory rate. I, too, have some reservations about using the clueless folks of the coffee shop for training fodder as you “… make the dog confront its problems head on”. 
Especially in light of your first post about this dog where you stated “… there was progress even tho the dog would light up when strangers would get within a couple meters of it and give it eye contact.” I understand that grabbing the hand helps stops a yank back at the wrong moment but I probably would not use someone like that in the first place. Partly because they are uncomfortable and will be putting out fear scent of their own which could compound the dog’s reactivity. The other issue was the lack of an escape route for the woman in the event the dog did decided to react “lightning fast” toward her or even in front of her on you if it chose to commit to a bite [sorry to paraphrase this from your previous post]. Because not only would she be looking for a way out over the bodies of her table buddies but so would they. 
Whether its skill or sheer dumb luck, I am happy that your methods have resulted in no injuries on innocent parties. I will not say your methods are safe since, you yourself have pointed out, made several errors – that if circumstances had played out differently – would have made for good viral video viewing of how stuff can go wrong.

But to say that since I have not witnessed the hundreds – or dare I say thousands – of sessions you have had with this dog that I am not “… in a position to judge the effectiveness of that one session” is not accurate. The purpose of video is to give a snapshot in time of a particular instance. That is what it’s meant to do and that’s what it does. It’s a teaching and learning tool so I believe this justifies my comment back. I don’t need to see the hundreds of other sessions when you have only shown one and my comment(s) are taken solely from the example given. Now if you wish to post your entire library on this dog then the comments can certainly take on the total length of all the examples given. You may consider the video to be “uneventful and possibly boring” but I did not consider it to boring nor lacking in content. What I find amazing is your lack of ability to see how much is actually going on.



P.S. My apologies to Matt for the hijacking of his thread and to the rest of the viewers for not snipping the novel


----------



## rick smith

my "novel" takes about three minutes ... if you are a slow reader //lol//
but longer than the usual posts ... you're free to call it what you like. if you want to make fun and call it a novel, i'm fine with that 

mostly i'm interested in the numerous calming signals i seemed to have missed and i wish you and Matt would ref the video as to when they occurred 
- especially where you thought i just get being bit.

so we wil agree to disagree on that point. i knew the dog WELL and did not feel he was anywhere close to giving anyone a bite or even a growl while i was there.

he was primed in advance for that session and yes, he was a bit winded. the temp was VERY hot and humidity was also high
- plus he had EPI, which you probably didn't know, but regardless of that, he was not panting at any rate higher than he normally would and i would classify him as a pushy type of dog that had grown accustomed to getting his way when he decided to go somewhere.

i saw NO AVOIDANCE, he readily gave me eye contact. no lip smacking, no yawning and no abnormal ear or tail set throughout the session

of course he was not there by choice,and he was happier as we left, but neither was he trying to escape or run off either. all in all i feel he was pretty laid back and that made me happy since there was table noise that could have hyped him up

Sarah
i'm not asking anyone to do what i do just because i feel it is the "only way".
i do what i do because it has worked for dogs much better than other methods and been doing it that way for over ten years without any stranger ever getting bit. for me, that is more than just good ole dumb luck 

so i posted because i feel it gives people another way to do something

if you have had successes desensitising dogs who have had aggression issues and/or live bites, please outline what you have done

do you at least agree that a dog who is stressed will not take treats ?

btw, i'm not trying to argue with you. i'm trying to elaborate on your comments based on my knowledge of that dog

i TOTALLY get it that other people will see it differently


----------



## jamie lind

rick smith said:


> a picture of the scar would be good for what ????





rick smith said:


> i wanted to post a pic of a bite i got from that gsd
> LOTS of people here don't believe me when i say something ;-)
> 
> that starbucks vid might be interpreted as a big lazy easy going shepherd; which he was NOT .... in fact he had destroyed a chain link fence before in three or four bites and had titanium caps put on to repair the damage
> 
> - that pic would have put things in the proper perspective of what i was dealing with around those navy folks ;-)
> 
> first time watchers cannot see how much progress was shown in that simple vid, and that is one other reason why i've never bothered posting these boring "pet videos"
> 
> but the WDF is dying these days so i might post some more //lol//


----------



## rick smith

if you guys look at the photo gallery and connect the dots, you will realise that unfortunately the dog is dead :-(

i made those two plaques in appreciation for that lady to trust me enuff to send that dog across the pacific to train with me and for giving me the opportunity to keep him when she got too weak.
- if he had lived i GUARANTEE you all would have seen a lot more vids. he was a great dog in many ways and i was proud of him for all the progress he had made in many areas. fwiw, he also was switched to a raw diet when he came here and that drastically reduced his dosage requirements of creon supplements and improved his (black sable) coat.
- working gsds are rarely seen on the streets over here. many Ja didn't know what he was because he wasn't black/tan 
R.I.P. good buddy


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## rick smith

Jamie

i already answered you in a PM

but please don't answer my question by posting another quote from ME. 
i know what i said ](*,)

if you really wanted to see a pic you probably would have sent me your email address so i could send it to you


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## jamie lind

rick smith said:


> Jamie
> 
> i already answered you in a PM
> 
> but please don't answer my question by posting another quote from ME.
> i know what i said ](*,)
> 
> if you really wanted to see a pic you probably would have sent me your email address so i could send it to you


I have a good idea what the bite looked like from the video. I was under the impression from your post that you wanted to show it.


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## rick smith

????
how can you tell what a bite looks like from a video ???


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## Matt Vandart

> but as far as calming signals, i sure missed all of them
> - could you point em out ?
> i'll settle for a half a ton //lol//


Lip licking, head turning, avoidance of eye contact, attempting to get distance......... rinse and repeat.


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## rick smith

Matt
pleeeese...
i seriously want to know
indicate where in the video all of these happened MULTIPLE times ?
- it's easy enuf to do -

if that's what "rinse and repeat" means //lol//


----------



## Sarah Platts

When I get time tonight, I will try to go through and do a frame by frame, blow-by-blow breakdown. Seriously, I have a hard time adjusting myself to your inability to see this. But will certainly take the time to help out. 

And rick, your long post only took me 50 sec to read. and that was doing some sections twice just to make sure I got it. Back in the heyday, I was doing 1000+ wpm (almost failed 7th grade because I was reading 7-9 sci-fi books a day. The unabridged version of the Count of Monte Cristo held my school year record of 4.5 days to read but that was smaller font and 1034 pages long) but now I'm older and slowed to a recreational speed of 800 wpm. Complicated scientific texts pull me down to around 500 wpm.


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## rick smith

Matt
same question i have asked elsewhere in this thread :

do you think a stressed dog will take/eat treats ?
especially one showing tons of calming signals 

....he certainly seemed to be enthusiastic with the ones he got from a strange hand and he also caught some i tossed him (something he had to learn, btw; he wasn't a natural in that regard) //lol//

also, fwiw, because of his EPI the owner had not used treats at all in her training because she felt it would irritate his stomach. after his first boarding she started using treats with markers when she took him back because she liked how he responded using them rather than relying strictly on the prong and Ecollar to keep his engagement 

most every dog i've ever worked with that is under any degree of stress will not eat treats and often spit them out

granted, it's only one signal, but a surefire indicator of stress levels to me when i'm working a dog, and he had his times when we were out that he wouldn't take a treat

anyway, it had been awhile since i watched that vid .... i'll go over it again a few times


----------



## Matt Vandart

00:00 to 02:00

00:00 lip licking, ears back, body dodgy carriage in general

00:14 Dog tries to leave

00:42 Head turning

00:48 dog gets edgy

00:49- 01:06 dog fine

01:07 lip licking

01:13 - 01:16 dog head turned avoiding eye contact as you are leaning over him, i suggest you don't do this and certainly wouldn't use collar pops to gain compliance (considering the history of this dog and your arm other wise next time it could have been your face) R.I.P cool looking K9 

01:42 - 02:00 general avoidance/defusing behaviors.

Right that's enough of that garbage.

Dogs can't eat and bite at the same time? Tell that to the thousand of kids that get nailed by Jack russells every year........

If you look at the time stamps I have provided they provide a clue as to the cause of the behaviors.


----------



## Matt Vandart

Many dogs won't eat when sufficiently stressed but some dogs will under low levels of stress (which I think this dog is under by the way) 
Also dogs will learn to eat treats through stress if you keep shoving them in their gobs.

Personally I don't think anyone at that table was in danger of getting bit in the whole vid, as I said, this is either because your training is great or some other reason I can't think of, lol, just go with the first I think

Can I put a head bang in here? ](*,)


----------



## Nicole Stark

Matt Vandart said:


> Many dogs won't eat when sufficiently stressed but some dogs will under low levels of stress (which I think this dog is under by the way)
> Also dogs will learn to eat treats through stress if you keep shoving them in their gobs.


That's been my experience as well. All points, particularly the last. I think it's relatively easy to condition a response (accepting treats), which they eventually figure out stops hovering, forward advances, unwanted attention, etc. 

Some dogs diffuse stress other ways. I had one that compulsively drank when stressed, she also would go into a "nervous nap" while on a bush plane. Anyone whose transported dogs in this manner has probably encountered this. Some will sit upright panting the entire time, generally dismissing handler interaction and the presence of rewards. Others chill and usually sit or comfortable lay down, mouth closed - periodically looking out the window or exploring (the to the extent that they can reach) the crowded cavity of the plane.

BTW Rick, I read your PM. Not that it matters but I didn't realize at the time that this video, a response to an entirely unrelated thread, and another post you made about 15+ months ago about a dog that was lost under the circumstances you described now and then were all the same dog. It's obvious you were fond of him and I am sorry that he didn't make his way back to you.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Nicole Stark said:


> That's been my experience as well. All points, particularly the last. I think it's relatively easy to condition a response (accepting treats), which they eventually figure out stops hovering, forward advances, unwanted attention, etc.
> 
> Some dogs diffuse stress other ways. I had one that compulsively drank when stressed, she also would go into a "nervous nap" while on a bush plane. Anyone whose transported dogs in this manner has probably encountered this. Some will sit upright panting the entire time, generally dismissing handler interaction and the presence of rewards. Others chill and usually sit or comfortable lay down, mouth closed - periodically looking out the window or exploring (the to the extent that they can reach) the crowded cavity of the plane.
> 
> BTW Rick, I read your PM. Not that it matters but I didn't realize at the time that this video, a response to an entirely unrelated thread, and another post you made about 15+ months ago about a dog that was lost under the circumstances you described now and then were all the same dog. It's obvious you were fond of him and I am sorry that he didn't make his way back to you.


Me to, Nicole!

I have the ultimate stressed out fear bitter chow mix next door to me. I think this dog hackles in his sleep. 

The mailman throws treats from her vehicle while the dog is owner leashed and attacking. This horrible PTS dog will swallow the treats whole while still attacking. 

You can't make those kind of general all encompassing statements, Rick. 

I have also seen dogs refuse food while stressed. 

Depends on the dog.


----------



## John Ly

gotta agree that dog seemed like he had enough when you tried to get him closer to the lady to take a treat off her thigh??? 

with that said every video can be dissected. i feel like the purpose of videos is to look at the bigger picture instead of trying to point out every mistake.


----------



## Matt Vandart

Exactamundo!


----------



## rick smith

thanx for the timeline Matt !


will go over all of them, but went to the one where you cautioned i might get bit of if do it the same way again
1. the dog's head and most of his body is blocked by my body. hard to read a dog when you can't see much of it 
but that is when i put him in a sit and gave him an achtung
- he went into a sit
- he gave me good eye contact at that time. i even gave him a bit more space if you see me taking a step back. (i mentioned this to Nick and told him if you look close you can see the ear turn slightly in my direction when he was giving E.C.) 
- he immediately released and went to take the food when i gave him a yes mark
- i see absolutely NO stress in that timeframe imo 
- again, hard if not impossible to see how close is to him when i am blocking the camera view 
2. you saw that segment completely different than i did; stress level wise 

i realize u were pointing out the problem areas u saw. TX
but now go to 3:27 to help put this in context where the dog is totally in view
he thought we were done 
we weren't 
as he started to walk off i used the leading a verbal "back" to stop him and keep him there
he EASILY yielded to leash pressure and backed up with NO conflict
we did a platz and he plopped down
look at his E.C. at that time
absolutely no stress or conflict
no heavy panting ... he was calm and actually a bit bored with the whole drill at that point
this view is easy to see imo
a dog that had been put under stress, even light stress would not have been a happy camper at this point

a point about the leash work
NO corrections were ever given with the lead during this session even tho i was using the lead OFTEN. he did excellent in yielding to MINIMAL leash pressures, and a dog under stress does NOT give you that kind of compliance
- at least IME ... of course there are always exceptions ;-)
- imo one of the strong points of that session for him was his leash compliance

as far as looking around
can be interpreted as a level of avoidance
can also be explained as a sign of an alert dog. has to be taken in context and with some knowledge of the dog you are with

this environment was still new to him even tho he had been out every day.
his head was definitely ion a swivel and aware of all the passerbys, noises, etc
but i was TOTALLY fine with that
- he was not a fear biter or nervous dog. not at all 

do i need a dog to care more about me, the handler, when i'm out in public ?
HELL YES - THAT IS THE GOAL FOLKS
- but he didn't even light up when that guy in the blue coveralls walked right up to us

that's what i was trying to do with this dog get him more NEUTRAL and LESS REACTIVE -in public- and this clip was a nice step up for him. lots of sloppy handling that can always improve the next time so i appreciate detailed comments. TX again

trust me, when this dog got stressed he WOULD NOT take a treat

no way i feel it was a "near bite" with a stressed dog and that i was lucky i didn't get nailed like some have suggested, but that's just me for that session, with that dog
* with that said i understand why those comments might have been posted and why some may have been concerned. anything is possible

i will get thru the others

btw, LEE
hackles are not always a stress sign. been with lots of dogs that hackle when they are having fun

on leash dogs are not always "attacking" when they are acting like assholes. we have a neighbour dog that is an extreme fence fighter and charges the fence and raises bloody hell when ANYONE walks close. he will scarf up treats tossed in to him and almost choke cause he doesn't stop his extremely load barking 
- but he is NOT stressed at all //lol//
- and he is a sweet creampuff when anyone goes inside ;-)
- he's escaped a few times and i've brought him back to the owner. very nice dog; just a punk when he's behind his fence


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

rick smith said:


> thanx for the timeline Matt !
> 
> 
> will go over all of them, but went to the one where you cautioned i might get bit of if do it the same way again
> 1. the dog's head and most of his body is blocked by my body. hard to read a dog when you can't see much of it
> but that is when i put him in a sit and gave him an achtung
> - he went into a sit
> - he gave me good eye contact at that time. i even gave him a bit more space if you see me taking a step back. (i mentioned this to Nick and told him if you look close you can see the ear turn slightly in my direction when he was giving E.C.)
> - he immediately released and went to take the food when i gave him a yes mark
> - i see absolutely NO stress in that timeframe imo
> - again, hard if not impossible to see how close is to him when i am blocking the camera view
> 2. you saw that segment completely different than i did; stress level wise
> 
> i realize u were pointing out the problem areas u saw. TX
> but now go to 3:27 to help put this in context where the dog is totally in view
> he thought we were done
> we weren't
> as he started to walk off i used the leading a verbal "back" to stop him and keep him there
> he EASILY yielded to leash pressure and backed up with NO conflict
> we did a platz and he plopped down
> look at his E.C. at that time
> absolutely no stress or conflict
> no heavy panting ... he was calm and actually a bit bored with the whole drill at that point
> this view is easy to see imo
> a dog that had been put under stress, even light stress would not have been a happy camper at this point
> 
> a point about the leash work
> NO corrections were ever given with the lead during this session even tho i was using the lead OFTEN. he did excellent in yielding to MINIMAL leash pressures, and a dog under stress does NOT give you that kind of compliance
> - at least IME ... of course there are always exceptions ;-)
> - imo one of the strong points of that session for him was his leash compliance
> 
> as far as looking around
> can be interpreted as a level of avoidance
> can also be explained as a sign of an alert dog. has to be taken in context and with some knowledge of the dog you are with
> 
> this environment was still new to him even tho he had been out every day.
> his head was definitely ion a swivel and aware of all the passerbys, noises, etc
> but i was TOTALLY fine with that
> - he was not a fear biter or nervous dog. not at all
> 
> do i need a dog to care more about me, the handler, when i'm out in public ?
> HELL YES - THAT IS THE GOAL FOLKS
> - but he didn't even light up when that guy in the blue coveralls walked right up to us
> 
> that's what i was trying to do with this dog get him more NEUTRAL and LESS REACTIVE -in public- and this clip was a nice step up for him. lots of sloppy handling that can always improve the next time so i appreciate detailed comments. TX again
> 
> trust me, when this dog got stressed he WOULD NOT take a treat
> 
> no way i feel it was a "near bite" with a stressed dog and that i was lucky i didn't get nailed like some have suggested, but that's just me for that session, with that dog
> * with that said i understand why those comments might have been posted and why some may have been concerned. anything is possible
> 
> i will get thru the others
> 
> btw, LEE
> hackles are not always a stress sign. been with lots of dogs that hackle when they are having fun
> 
> on leash dogs are not always "attacking" when they are acting like assholes. we have a neighbour dog that is an extreme fence fighter and charges the fence and raises bloody hell when ANYONE walks close. he will scarf up treats tossed in to him and almost choke cause he doesn't stop his extremely load barking
> - but he is NOT stressed at all //lol//
> - and he is a sweet creampuff when anyone goes inside ;-)
> - he's escaped a few times and i've brought him back to the owner. very nice dog; just a punk when he's behind his fence


Rick- Have a heart. I'm a old MOFO. How the fuk long do you think my concentration span is?

I got to the second paragraph or whatever you call that wild way you write shit, broke down and went back to Hannity on Fox Network.


----------



## Sarah Platts

I just watched it through for a second time. At first I was going to do Matt’s way but then opted for overall impressions and certain behaviors. When I played it the first time I did not have the sound on. When I played it through the second, I became extremely angry mixed with some How-Dare-You, with regards to your callous use of the clueless coffee house folks. When the black woman reacts to the dog swinging his head toward her by drawing back I hear a woman (I have to assume it’s your wife) telling them that the “dog doesn’t bite” and to “not worry about the dog” and states again that the dog does not bite. This is a lie since you have clearly told us that the dog does bite, has bitten, has threatened and acted aggressively toward humans. I consider your wife’s statement and your own casual acceptance of this cover-up to be reprehensible. Your claim of safety being a primary factor, not only took a nosedive down, but went into the negative regions and probably won’t surface for some time. Now on to the video.

During the first 30 or so seconds the dog first tries to walk on but then swings back toward the woman several times and maintains an ear back position. The dog did not appear aggressive at this time but is unhappy with the pressure you are placing on him. During the first minute or so, while you are not really paying attention to him and socializing more with the coffee folks, he relatively o.k. But the more you pop that collar and giving him corrections, the more he makes stronger and stronger advances on the black woman. My belief is that the pressure you are placing on him is causing behavior displacement and redirection toward the woman. 

At the 1:40 mark you get down on his level. Normally getting down on the dog’s level tends to reduce pressure because you are no longer looming over them. In this case, the dog actually gets worse and I’m glad the black woman held still for him. From what I saw, every time you knelt down your control of him slipped. He does constant head turns away and tries to walk on. 

1:53 he diverts his attention to the two men approaching and you down him but he downs with his back to the people and head turned from you.

Ears remain pinned back almost the entire time. Dog’s reaction time to commands increases and becomes unreliable forcing increasing handler demands. Every time you pop the collar, his body carriage and characteristics become worse. 

2:16 the dog gets up and when downed again has moved even further from the people. 

2:22 your wife notes that “he’s really nervous” and you agree! However you continue because “it’s good for him” 

3:12 his focusing away from you and you thrust your leg out and the dog looks away several times with his ears still back. 

3:19 the dog finally responds to handler demands by the minimal amount possible before turning head away and avoiding eye contact.

3:42 you place food on the foot. Dog goes to get it and gets corrected. At this point the dog’s attention focuses on you firmly for the first time and holds it with intent. Ears are still back but very noticeably he’s cleared his mouth by moving his tongue back into his mouth behind the front teeth. [this was where I felt the dog was considering a bite or reaction on you] Breathing rate and rhythm change. It’s only after you let him up that the tongue comes back out of the mouth and he begins normal panting.

Since there is no “before” video to look at its hard to determine the breath or scope of your work with him. If he was as bad as it’s been claimed then he has come a long way but I would never consider this dog to be safe by any stretch of the imagination especially when out in public or interacting with strangers. As others have pointed out, dogs have different thresholds. I've seen as many people bitten while treating as trying to pet. I think dogs will eat even when under stress for the same reason humans do. It's comforting. How much stress it takes to make the dog stop eating, I think depends on the dog.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

rick smith said:


> thanx for the timeline Matt !
> 
> 
> will go over all of them, but went to the one where you cautioned i might get bit of if do it the same way again
> 1. the dog's head and most of his body is blocked by my body. hard to read a dog when you can't see much of it
> but that is when i put him in a sit and gave him an achtung
> - he went into a sit
> - he gave me good eye contact at that time. i even gave him a bit more space if you see me taking a step back. (i mentioned this to Nick and told him if you look close you can see the ear turn slightly in my direction when he was giving E.C.)
> - he immediately released and went to take the food when i gave him a yes mark
> - i see absolutely NO stress in that timeframe imo
> - again, hard if not impossible to see how close is to him when i am blocking the camera view
> 2. you saw that segment completely different than i did; stress level wise
> 
> i realize u were pointing out the problem areas u saw. TX
> but now go to 3:27 to help put this in context where the dog is totally in view
> he thought we were done
> we weren't
> as he started to walk off i used the leading a verbal "back" to stop him and keep him there
> he EASILY yielded to leash pressure and backed up with NO conflict
> we did a platz and he plopped down
> look at his E.C. at that time
> absolutely no stress or conflict
> no heavy panting ... he was calm and actually a bit bored with the whole drill at that point
> this view is easy to see imo
> a dog that had been put under stress, even light stress would not have been a happy camper at this point
> 
> a point about the leash work
> NO corrections were ever given with the lead during this session even tho i was using the lead OFTEN. he did excellent in yielding to MINIMAL leash pressures, and a dog under stress does NOT give you that kind of compliance
> - at least IME ... of course there are always exceptions ;-)
> - imo one of the strong points of that session for him was his leash compliance
> 
> as far as looking around
> can be interpreted as a level of avoidance
> can also be explained as a sign of an alert dog. has to be taken in context and with some knowledge of the dog you are with
> 
> this environment was still new to him even tho he had been out every day.
> his head was definitely ion a swivel and aware of all the passerbys, noises, etc
> but i was TOTALLY fine with that
> - he was not a fear biter or nervous dog. not at all
> 
> do i need a dog to care more about me, the handler, when i'm out in public ?
> HELL YES - THAT IS THE GOAL FOLKS
> - but he didn't even light up when that guy in the blue coveralls walked right up to us
> 
> that's what i was trying to do with this dog get him more NEUTRAL and LESS REACTIVE -in public- and this clip was a nice step up for him. lots of sloppy handling that can always improve the next time so i appreciate detailed comments. TX again
> 
> trust me, when this dog got stressed he WOULD NOT take a treat
> 
> no way i feel it was a "near bite" with a stressed dog and that i was lucky i didn't get nailed like some have suggested, but that's just me for that session, with that dog
> * with that said i understand why those comments might have been posted and why some may have been concerned. anything is possible
> 
> i will get thru the others
> 
> btw, LEE
> hackles are not always a stress sign. been with lots of dogs that hackle when they are having fun
> 
> on leash dogs are not always "attacking" when they are acting like assholes. we have a neighbour dog that is an extreme fence fighter and charges the fence and raises bloody hell when ANYONE walks close. he will scarf up treats tossed in to him and almost choke cause he doesn't stop his extremely load barking
> - but he is NOT stressed at all //lol//
> - and he is a sweet creampuff when anyone goes inside ;-)
> - he's escaped a few times and i've brought him back to the owner. very nice dog; just a punk when he's behind his fence


You must be kidding. This dog isn't having fun. After years and years of dogs you don't think I can figure out if a dog is playing or not. This dog has attacked me twice. He ain't playing bro.


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## rick smith

first off : DO NOT MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT MY WIFE
she is not a dog trainer and she was trying to be nice to the americans
i did NOT agree with her comments but i was also trying to be nice and i wasn't trying to HIDE A DAMN THING about the dog ... thank you very much
- of course i would have preferred if she said nothing and just held the camera, but i was not about to get into a discussion with her since i was working a dog and a number of people
- this was no unethical unprofessional "conspiracy" to lie about a dangerous dog to a bunch of sailors. was a shitty comment to make Sarah. i even took the time to try and explain a few things to them in a NICE WAY and keep it low key

the dog was having FUN with his OB when i placed a piece of chicken on his paw and stopped him from scarfing it up immediately. NO CONFLICT THERE AT ALL - a happy camper for a dog that was used to getting his way

beginning to think you can't read dogs Sarah and you are a total idiot if you think i should have "warned" these people that this dog had bit people
- yeah, right, warn people and get them tense and scared before you even start a session ](*,)
- freaking RIDICULOUS
"hey everyone...be careful .... this dog has bit people...but trust me now...i'm a dog trainer !!"

i realise you don't believe anything i say and think i am a prick. i realise you will not agree with ANY explanation i give that is contrary to your opinion. fine.
but if you are going to attack me don't expect me to turn the other cheek

i make dogs do things they would prefer NOT TO DO
sometimes they resist
it's called training 
but i keep it at at the lowest level of conflict and i still feel that is what this clip showed. no more no less
- it was NOT a vid of me stressing out a dog and almost getting bit ](*,)

it showed a dog i could TRUST to do some simple stuff in an environment that challenged him...which he DID
with very little resistance

of course you don't believe me that no stranger has EVER gotten a bite from a dog i have worked near them. probably done it more than a hundred times, over longer than a ten year period
- it is clear you don't believe me. i don't care, and if i posted a hundred of similar vids you still wouldn't believe me ... and i still wouldn't care //rotflmao///

but this is the last time i will waste my time and do a back and forth with you. 
just pissed med off you try and go after my WIFE too. she is a sweet lady that means no harm to anyone. attack me all you want, but back the **** off with her !!!

now
back to DOGS
PLEASE


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## rick smith

Sarah
re: "you place food on the foot. Dog goes to get it and gets corrected. At this point the dog’s attention focuses on you firmly for the first time and holds it with intent."

i thought you knew a bit more about marker training
CORRECTION my ass 
- it was a calm quiet SIMPLE verbal marker that he responded to well WITH ZERO CONFLICT

naturally you ignored what i tried to point out to show the overall stress level he was or wasn't going thru
- but only your 'OVERALL" comment are worth considering ... that's the Sarah way //lol//

one more time 
NO corrections were given in this clip and don't get into a def war trying to split hairs and say verbal markers and leash control are corrections
- they aren't in my world

i have other clips where i have corrected this dog. they are crystal clear


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## Bob Scott

My only comments about the video are;

Glad you shared it.

I applaud your efforts with aggressive dogs.

The dog wasn't comfortable. 

I would never expose a dog in that manner to strangers if the dog was being reprogrammed for aggression issues. 

Not trying to trash what I see. Just my personal observations.


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## rick smith

Lee
we used to get Fox over here but no more. i do remember Hannity.
much more entertaining than me 

my weird way of writing goes back to my navy days. learned from an admiral named Chauncey Hoffman. nicknamed "the bull dog"
best guy i ever worked for; officer or enlisted. we used to inspect base security and do threat assessments at night and he would wear a T-shirt and flip flops. tried to get me to climb the fence at the SeaBee compound to see how long it would take for their reaction force to show up. brought his girlfriend over to my apartment one night about 2:00 in the morning and wanted to have a beer
- crazy type of in your face guy but unbelievably intelligent. as long as you weren't a yes man and could back up your words he would back you up 1000%
- he always had a pet peeve that too much communication in the military was filled with excess garbage, wasted words and beauracratic bullshit. gave all his staff a book called "Plain English" (or something like that)
- it stuck with me :razz:
- he used to tell all the Base commanders : "damn it ... don't tell what you think i want to hear, tell me the truth about how you feel !!"

i could write a HUGE book about that guy

hope this wasn't too long for your feeble mind to get thru ....rotf :razz::razz:

and that dog needs a REAL correction:twisted:
- you shouldn't have to live with that shit and u shouldn't care how the neighbour feels about it


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## rick smith

Bob
appreciate the comments

i think it all boils down to this 

- how can you help an aggressive dog ?

i think vids DO help to back up words 
we have all discussed it verbally and the main ways are well known
-- gradually decrease the distance duration and distraction level while trying to keep it conflict free
-- that is sooooo easy to say 

the devil is always in the details; but they ARE important and that is why i take my time to write in detail
- just take "timing" as an example of how important a "detail" can be

i think if you saw how many slow incremental steps i go thru with a dog like this it would make more sense
- it's always a fine line to know how much challenge the dog can take and still be safe and i am now confident in that ability, but that sometimes comes across as me being a "know it all" and ego freak //lol//
- i feel dogs are amazingly capable of adjusting their behaviour regardless of the DNA they bring to the table
- but as you progress you HAVE to start trusting the dog more

- i can see how many people would consider what i do as reckless and unsafe. but if they went thru the whole, long process with me in person, i also think they would change their mind. it's happened before 

from my experience, quick progress gets made and then the slope becomes much less steep and lots and lots of reps are needed. it takes a lot of patience

i'm glad to talk dogs, but am starting to get a hair trigger when personal attacks get thrown in so quickly. 
I'M SICK AND TIRED OF IT and i know it is wrong for me to stoop to that level just to defend myself.....****ing waste of my time

*** i have SUPER THICK skin, but i don't need this forum that much 
- when people start attacking my professional integrity, and MY WIFE, i have a ZERO tolerance level and also get pissed if a mod doesn't step up and knock that shit off

rant over


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## John Ly

how do you feel about muzzling a dog in a controlled fenced in area and letting it roam and interact with strangers when it wants. strangers can feed it through the muzzle if the dog comes up to them. instead of basically forcing the dog to sit and interact with people like in the video.

ever done it that way? what do you think are the pros and cons of both methods?


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## rick smith

re: "how do you feel about muzzling a dog in a controlled fenced in area and letting it roam and interact with strangers when it wants. strangers can feed it through the muzzle if the dog comes up to them. instead of basically forcing the dog to sit and interact with people like in the video.

ever done it that way? what do you think are the pros and cons of both methods?"

hmmmm....
first off; i've never done that

my initial reaction is i wouldn't want to because there are too many things that can go wrong that the handler would have no control over.
- it would depend a LOT on the individual dog, but most are not capable of acting nice
- i also do not trust people to know how to feed dog in a muzzle, or feed it at all. i use markers and they most likely wouldn't. that might reinforce and condition a dog to be what i call a "mugger" and expect a goodie every time it sees a stranger. i do not want to develop that type of dog
- even if they could feed without incident, i GUARANTEE their next action would be to try and pet it ... bad idea in most situations :-(
- next, if the premise is that the dog is reactive to strangers and may or may not be aggressive when strangers approach, why would you think they would just learn how to be nonreactive when they were allowed to roam free ?
- also, most people with a problem dog like this want to be able to take their dog out with them and have a nice uneventful outing. that requires a good bond between handler and dog together as a team. the dog needs to follow the handler and not try and run the railroad and react whenever it feels the need to, etc. not sure the dog can learn this solo
- i also think it would be next to impossible to set up this kind of area :
totally fenced in but still open enough to allow strangers to go in and out. i doubt it would ever be totally fenced in and safe

the more i think about it, the less pros i can see
- what pros do you see in this method ?

but the use of muzzles is definitely a good tool to have for this type of training. i do use them a LOT and they are always modified so the dog can eat and drink easily when worn for extended times

i think you may be "over describing" when you say i am FORCING a dog to interact and that it somehow takes away from the training benefit or stresses the dog
- i do not feel that is what is happening
- i feel i am TEACHING and SHOWING the dog (thru MY leadership, not the dog's) that we can move around in public and get close to strange people and nothing bad will happen that will make it feel the need to light up or react in a negative way. in very slow steps but while constantly raising the bar at a level the dog can handle. multiple sessions of of NON eventful meetings. 
- the amount of actual force is VERY minimal and does not turn the dog into a whimpering submissive basket case that cowers whenever in public. i want it to be a NON event but i want the dog to enjoy. the more they do it the more they usually do, even if it wasn't their idea to start with //lol//

is that the kind of inputs you were asking for ???
if you feel different please let me know how


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## rick smith

there are times when you want to set up a dog to fail, but mostly you want to set it up for success. i think you have a better chance for the latter when you have it under control

and most problem dogs have already had plenty of opportunities to fit into the first category ... and have failed to some extent


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## Matt Vandart

The "Bull dog" sounds cool.

Point 1: I don't need to see the dog, you said "Achtung" twice (with a lead pop) and the fact the dog sat when you asked it and immediately looked away which tells me the dog is not focused on you is enough to cover that point.



> 01:13 - 01:16 dog head turned avoiding eye contact as you are leaning over him, i suggest you don't do this and certainly wouldn't use collar pops to gain compliance (considering the history of this dog and your arm other wise next time it could have been your face) R.I.P cool looking K9


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## Matt Vandart

Bob Scott said:


> My only comments about the video are;
> 
> Glad you shared it.
> 
> I applaud your efforts with aggressive dogs.
> 
> The dog wasn't comfortable.
> 
> I would never expose a dog in that manner to strangers if the dog was being reprogrammed for aggression issues.
> 
> Not trying to trash what I see. Just my personal observations.


Bobs post is basically saying what I and others are saying in a more polite way and I am in agreement. 

At 3:27 shit starts getting better I agree, in my opinion it is because YOUR body language changes and the dog has downed with a comfortable (for him) distance from you. If I was to watch this vid and have no knowledge of previous history and someone put a gun to my head and told me I had to make comment, I would simply say "That dog has space issues with the handler" that is all. 
If I was then asked is the dog going to nail anyone? then my answer would be:
"I personally don't think that dog was going to nail any members of the public during this clip, I think that dog in the vid has fairly good OB and control wouldn't say the dog was nervous more uncomfortable."

If I was then asked what do you think of the drill:
"I saw no rocket science here." 

Point is how the fck did we end up talking about this dog and this vid?
I saw absolutely no loose lead 'traditional position' heeling in public in this vid as you suggested about my 'Sali improvement' vid, not in my thread but in a PM to someone else for some Bizarre reason.

Or something along those lines dunno, very tired atm apologize for any offence.


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## Matt Vandart

Oh that's right I remember now, biting dogs in public.


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## rick smith

Bob
re: "I would never expose a dog in that manner to strangers if the dog was being reprogrammed for aggression issues."

fine

1. how WOULD you do it ?
2. have you done it ?
3. and do you have any videos of your methods ? ... including the common method (3D's) i already mentioned that i assume you agree with since you have given the exact same advice on this forum

Matt :
you have said many times you use marker training, so do you also agree with Sarah that i gave a correction i right after i put the treat on his paw ?


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## rick smith

Matt :
re: "Point is how the fck did we end up talking about this dog and this vid?
I saw absolutely no loose lead 'traditional position' heeling in public in this vid as you suggested about my 'Sali improvement' vid, not in my thread but in a PM to someone else for some Bizarre reason."

* i already said this had NOTHING to do with your vids and was not posted as a response to them...i also apologized ](*,)
"bizarre" ??? nice jab, but i'm thru counterpunching 

the only connection was they were both shot in the real world //lol//

wish Connie could work her magic and take all the posts not related to Sali in the real world and start a new thread with them

sorry i also responded to the muzzle Q's


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## Matt Vandart

Dude, it's not a jab it's an unweighted point of fact. If you have something to say about other peoples vids, saying it in PM's to someone rather than posting in public is a bit bizarre.

I'm not gonna hate on you for it for a number of reasons, I don't generally hold grudges or spite, two I posted a vid I expect responses of all kinds.

I would prefer it if Connie or someone else DIDN'T remove any comments from this thread other than ones you find directly offensive. I said how did we get to talking about all this because I had forgotten and was sick of going back in the thread, not because I disproved of the direction it was going. 
This thread was a tongue in cheek post with the duel purpose of updating on Sali's progress for people who were interested it has turned into something better I feel.


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## susan tuck

Okay, I agree with Matt, Nicole, Sarah, Lee and Bob. 

The only thing I will add is I have dealt with aggression in dogs, and I have found obedience to be an important aspect in making a dog neutral to people. More times that not in that video the dog ignored your commands and blew you off. Personally, I would not take a dog into that kind of situation who did not have acceptable obedience, I don't allow my dogs to ignore my commands.


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## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> Okay, I agree with Matt, Nicole, Sarah, Lee and Bob.
> 
> The only thing I will add is I have dealt with aggression in dogs, and I have found obedience to be an important aspect in making a dog neutral to people. More times that not in that video the dog ignored your commands and blew you off. Personally, I would not take a dog into that kind of situation who did not have acceptable obedience, I don't allow my dogs to ignore my commands.


 I forgot to add that especially with a dog who can be aggressive, it's really important to never take your eye off your dog.


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## Sarah Platts

Corrections are not in the eye of the giver but in the eye of the receiver. The giver may not *think* it's a correction but ANYTHING that you do to alter or change a behavior is a correction. Your dog starts to move off but you pop the collar and make the dog stay or return to you. You have delivered a correction. You, the giver, may not see it as one but to the receiver, the dog, it's one.

I stand by my comments on using unsuspecting people as training aids especially with this dog's known behavior. If you chose to hide this behavior then you *know* that what you are about to do isn't right. The ends do not justify the means. Not in this case. Round up some of your dog friends and stage them at the mall, coffee shop, or wherever. Use people that understand what they are getting into. If your friends all decline ..... well, that should be a clue to you.


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## susan tuck

Sarah Platts said:


> Corrections are not in the eye of the giver but in the eye of the receiver. The giver may not *think* it's a correction but ANYTHING that you do to alter or change a behavior is a correction. Your dog starts to move off but you pop the collar and make the dog stay or return to you. You have delivered a correction. You, the giver, may not see it as one but to the receiver, the dog, it's one.
> 
> I stand by my comments on using unsuspecting people as training aids especially with this dog's known behavior. If you chose to hide this behavior then you *know* that what you are about to do isn't right. The ends do not justify the means. Not in this case.*Round up some of your dog friends and stage them a the mall, coffee shop, or wherever. *Use people that understand what they are getting into. If your friends all decline ..... well, that should be a clue to you.


That's exactly what I did with my male who doesn't like anyone and is a nasty SOB. I used my non-timid dog savvy friends (doesn't take many), and I taught him a verbal cue so it became just another obedience exercise. When we're out and about, if someone asks to pet him, I give him the verbal cue and he's great because he knows I will reward him after they pet him. Only problem now is the silly old boy always starts drooling but at least he's neutral to strangers!!!


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## rick smith

if anyone here cannot see the difference between a verbal marker and a physical correction in a video they have no business claiming they use markers

the same goes for teaching a dog to yield its space to leash control as compared to giving them a correction using a lead on a FLAT collar
**without having to step up to an Ecollar or prong or pinch.

if that doesn't work i step it up with other tools
NONE were necessary at that level of his training, and i use ALL of them

nobody has noticed/commented on that minor detail either 

this dog had grown up on a prong and Ecollar and had only gotten worse :-(

i teach dogs to do things they would prefer NOT to do on their own and i do it at the lowest level of conflict that PREVENTS escalation into unacceptable behaviour. that is EXACTLY what was happening in that little session
- no more no less

the dog gets it
rinse and repeat
the dog gets better in public
progress

the K.I.S.S. principle

trying to round up a bunch of buds who are dog savvy and set up a fake "public" environment is a royal PITA to do, and almost IMPOSSIBLE to do on a regular reoccurring basis which is what these types of dogs need

it's pie in the sky wishful thinking Susan, no matter how nice it sounds when you write it up on a keyboard ;-)

- i prefer to use the real world that already exists that all dogs will have to face on a daily basis

amen


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## rick smith

at THAT level of his training and in THAT situation 
his level of OB was acceptable to me
- i ALREADY said he blew me off Susan. quite obvious but tx so much for pointing it out again 
- it's a part of real world dog training. it happens. it's never as good as the backyard and other areas where the distractions are minimal or non existent

being neutral to those people was more important to that dog at that time than crisp response to every command i gave him. 
it was NOT an OB session, it was a conditioning drill in public
- you are forgetting that major difference 

no harm, no foul, no blood drawn, no snarls, no barks and no posturing
-of course ...no bites
- a nice successful session IMNSHO //lol//

- the OB is done in that back yard with no other distractions around, and like most dogs he is fine in that area. that vid was not to show off his OB. we weren't working for trial points //lol//
- i have nice vids of his OB 
sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too //lol//

always a fine line as to what is acceptable and what should be corrected.
with an aggressive dog who has not yet learned how to be nonreactive in public you have to make judgement calls to keep the level of conflict low and NOT allow it to escalate
- otherwise there is no progress
- there was good progress in that video despite what was sloppy

at this point, i've heard enough of "i'd never do it that way "
so there is no reason to try and explain it further

if anyone who rehabs aggressive dogs in a CROWDED PUBLIC PLACE AROUND REAL NON DOG PEOPLE who has a better way
- please post it

titled or not  i can only remember seeing one

-- if anyone feels this type of training is beneficial they can participate further and i would be glad to go into more details of the many steps i take in this type of de-sensitising and counterconditioning program
** this vid was just a short snippet of a long drawn out process **

so far the majority of responses have been negative and the training doesn't seem to be what anyone else would use

I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH THAT

- so i hope someone shows a better way in a video

because this is a COMMON PROBLEM for many dogs owned by many people and well worth discussing


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## rick smith

i think this is funny 

people on this forum have always posted about how OB is a strict requirement when working with a dog with aggression issues in public

and how the dog must respond to the OB as a method of redirecting the aggression, etc
- it's been said MANY times

actually, the short vid clip i posted is a great example of how OB is NOT always the solution
- especially since many people have said his OB was not good and he was blowing me off, etc
- it wasn't flawless ... but it didn't need to be

the dog did not want to be there if he had his way
he was FORCED to be there
he was FORCED to interact and take food from a strange hand
but the fact is he did NOT get hyped and he did not get aggressive

he handled it and then we went on our way ... when "I" decided to leave; not when HE chose to leave

all uneventful and without any punk behaviours surfacing

rinse and repeat enough times and it becomes a total non event for the dog and they have NO problems in crowded public places

i find it funny that no one can accept that and instead focuses on all the blown OB, all the "stress" i was subjecting the poor doggie to, and all the shit that "coulda happened" .... but didn't
--- the more i think about it the funnier it gets
....i must have a warped sense of humour //lol//


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## Bob Scott

Rick, I don't necessarily disagree with WHAT you did just WHO you did it with. 

I think is should be done with other experienced dog people. 

The fear/avoidance the girl showed could easily trigger aggressive. 

The aggressive dogs I've worked with were my own or friends that had dogs they "thought" were agressive. For the most part they always turn out to be dogs that were allowed to get away with crap that allowed them to become pushy with their owners.

As to my own that where aggressive I never allowed any to interact with the public. It just wasn't something I did. 

I've always been terrible with pics and video of my dogs. I had a Nationallly ranked Kerry Blue in AKC obedience yrs back and I have no still photos much less videos of the dog performing.

I think I have the photographer proof of my now 11 yr old GSD with one of his 1st place finishes in AKC ob. Never bothered to get the actual photo. 

I'm just not a big picture/video taker for the most part.


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## rick smith

in a perfect world Bob, i would LOVE to only work with experienced people when i am with a dog that has any type of aggression problems. 

that is impossible unless you have a lot of beer money or a large training staff. plus, there are obvious reasons why trying to assemble a team ON A REGULAR BASIS is impractical.
this is training that takes place on a DAILY basis. without frequent multiple sessions the dog does NOT progress. sure i have friends, but they all have lives and i don't want to ask them to meet me out in town somewhere 3-4 times a week so i can work a dog.
- they have things to do besides showing up in town for training sessions with me
- it would be VERY selfish on my part to ask on a frequent basis

like i said Susan's method sounds good on paper, but to make it happen in public on a recurring basis is a pipe dream 

i work on the navy base a lot too, and that is a great place for finding groups of people to work with. and i can explain quickly what i'd like them to do. lots of times they miss their dogs "back home" and are more than happy to cooperate. it results in a lot of big macs and fires "on me" //lol//

working in my backyard has limited advantages, but FOR SURE, when we have BBQ's with 10-12 people you can bet i use that for a training opportunity for whatever dogs i am working with at the time

at Starbucks, the fact that they were all seated (except for one guy in the background) allowed me to easily control the situation and that's why i brought the dog there. when another girl stood and tried go join right at the beginning, she backed off when i asked her to. 
- of course there can be people walking by and i watch for that
- someone can come up without being invited (the guy in blue)

but the bottom line is if you want a dog to become neutral in PUBLIC, you have to go there sooner or later and the sooner the better. there are MANY degrees to allow or not allow interactions. but just being out is advantageous whether or not you even approach anyone

i work for people  
they pay me and they want to see their dog get better so that rarely allows me to just tell them to keep it at home. 

- the hardest part is when they transfer what i am doing and start to do it for themselves. i can get the dog over the major hurdles when i work with it alone and most of the time they come along and watch from a distance. right after the session we always critique it IN DETAIL
- i can get always the dog safe and comfortable in public but often the owner has to back up a lot of steps. they understand and that is rarely a problem

all depends on the dog though

and like i said, if this is not something others are interested in, there is no reason to keep the thread going

either we don't have that many lurkers anymore 

or it is a unsafe/dumb idea to others too


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## Matt Vandart

TBH rick I think you are overreacting to what people are saying, certainly to what I have said. Much of what people have said is the same stuff you said in my original Sali thread when I first had a problem with her.

The dog may have left when you wanted to leave but he had a few ideas of leaving during the session. This is not saying you keeping him there was wrong it is just pointing out an observation of fact. Saying you missed some calming signals is not saying that he was going to nail any of the people sitting there it is just an observation that you appeared to miss some calming signals and levied more stress on the dog, which didn't go anywhere so all was good.

During the process of getting Sali/my act together I was offered advice and observation from many different people which helped greatly, people involved in this thread, including you, also others who have not become involved in this thread for which I am grateful as quite frankly the advice has been invaluable, particularly people, such as yourself, pointing out observations of the dogs demeanor, behavior whatever I had missed/wasn't seeing.
I took on board peoples advice/observation, including yours, without conflict and attempted to apply it. I have gained success it has been a successful process. 
This thread however has degenerated into a I'm right your wrong barny in effect, why?

Personally I think the Sali situation and this dog situation are completely different kettle of fish. 
Sali is a high drive, prey driven, sharp asshole with low reactivity from strong working decent. i.e every dog behind her has been in a working aplication, either military, police, sport or other working capacity that involves taking on a human.
This dog appears to be, from this video alone, a ****ed up pet type dog, (I am perfectly willing to accept this is not the case)

This could be evidence of your training being awesome, only you know this, we do not.

My video was nothing to do with any crowded street scenario it was purely a tongue in cheek reference to your PM to a third party taking the piss basically out of my Sali improvement vid and the position the dog was heeling in.

If you want to see a crowded street video of dogs that have done bitework, one of which has had a live bite then I suggest you watch this vid, I hope it is less boring for you. Both these dogs are capable of 'bringing it' when required of them, they just have a shitty work ethic. Feel free to slate, objectively comment, offer advice, maybe even just say 'that's cool'
Discomfort is seen in the dogs, corrections were given, commands were blown off, signals missed, I am accepting of this as this is not a trial field, these things happen in reality, no one is saying otherwise . 
Probably only the third or fourth time they have been in civilization:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqyZF967x0c


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## Matt Vandart

And here is one of Sali:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SREahqLFoak


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## Matt Vandart

Oh and by the way by "****ed up pet dog" i mean someone fkd it up, not a slight at the dog at all so please don't take offence as none was meant.


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## susan tuck

My gawd Rik, defensive MUCH???? I'm really tired of your nasty little digs at this forum and it's members. You don't like it - feel free to leave. YOU are the one who posted the video and YOU are the one who said : "slice it dice it shred away". And now of course since no one agrees with you, instead of accepting advise which you can simply use or not, you set about writing novels.

Yes Rik, you did say the dog blew off your commands in a very off hand manner, which raises a lot of red flags for me and demonstrates piss poor training at it's finest, and is unfair and confusing to dogs.

Once and for all please get the idea that my dogs have only been exposed to country roads out of your pointy little head. As you know, I only moved here a few years ago from Los Angeles, is that a big enough city for you?

My idea works on paper? Works in real life. Rik, it's exactly what I did with this dog, what I have done with other dogs, what other people have done with their dogs and it works whether you like it or not, tried and true method.

Here's the bottom line for me, Rik. You are one of those people who is in love with the sound of your own voice. You are damn lucky that dog didn't bite you in that session or worse yet, an innocent bystander, but your overblown ego won't allow you to see it. I just hope you stick to pet dogs in the future because you have no business on the leash end of a serious dog. You are far more dangerous than that dog.


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## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> My gawd Rik, defensive MUCH???? I'm really tired of your nasty little digs at this forum and it's members. You don't like it - feel free to leave. YOU are the one who posted the video and YOU are the one who said : "slice it dice it shred away". And now of course since no one agrees with you, instead of accepting advise which you can simply use or not, you set about writing novels.
> 
> Yes Rik, you did say the dog blew off your commands in a very off hand manner, which raises a lot of red flags for me and demonstrates piss poor training at it's finest, and is unfair and confusing to dogs.
> 
> Once and for all please get the idea that my dogs have only been exposed to country roads out of your pointy little head. As you know, I only moved here a few years ago from Los Angeles, is that a big enough city for you?
> 
> My idea works on paper? Works in real life. Rik, it's exactly what I did with this dog, what I have done with other dogs, what other people have done with their dogs and it works whether you like it or not, tried and true method.
> 
> Here's the bottom line for me, Rik. You are one of those people who is in love with the sound of your own voice. You are damn lucky that dog didn't bite you in that session or worse yet, an innocent bystander, but your overblown ego won't allow you to see it. I just hope you stick to pet dogs in the future because you have no business on the leash end of a serious dog. You are far more dangerous than that dog.


 You know what Rik? Just disregard my whole post. The reason I was hesitant to respond to your video in the first place was because I knew what your response would be (a defensive novel) so why should I bother...why should anyone bother? You don't want to hear what others think, all you do is argue, even though you have been told the same thing about the video by so many. Nothing changes


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## susan tuck

DEAR MODERATORS: Please delete ALL my posts on this thread, I'm really sorry I fell into the Rik Vortex. 
:roll:


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## rick smith

i found some more vids of this gsd at various stages of his training. some even have him lighting up and getting VERY vocal and receiving strong corrections 

if there are any lurkers out there who have an aggressive dog they are trying to help, or are interested in this method of (piss poor) training, PM me and i will point the way to the vids 

- i have tried to explain this vid and my system as best as i can. if it came across as being defensive there is not much i can do about that. 

but for SURE i am not here because i like to hear myself talk 

i true believe people really don't read long posts and retain the details. something they read upsets them and that is the only thing that sticks in their mind 

when people take it one step further and slam my wife too, i DO get damn defensive. that comment was one of the worst i've ever read in a post. actually it's the first time i have read the handler AND the camera operator being slammed together ... absurd and uncalled for

Susan's latest zinger is a good example. i NEVER said the way she described was a bad way and my way was better ... or the "only" way.
i just said it was impractical and damn near impossible to do that on a recurring basis ... and i explained why ... i explained it again to Bob in even more detail
- fwiw, i have done exactly what she described


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## Matt Vandart

Post them here? I am interested.


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## Sarah Platts

Matt,

I liked your latest Sali vid. I liked the way you were considerate of the other people and cognizant of what was going around you and taking appropriate steps to keep Sali neutral while at the same time challenging her. Your progression of vids show clear improvement on a regular basis. Thank you for continuing to post even in the face of conflicting or even negative criticism. The fact that you can take such advice and not lash out or develop redirection/escapism posts speaks volumes of yourself. Keep up the good work.


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## Sarah Platts

susan tuck said:


> That's exactly what I did with my male who doesn't like anyone and is a nasty SOB. I used my non-timid dog savvy friends (doesn't take many), and I taught him a verbal cue so it became just another obedience exercise. When we're out and about, if someone asks to pet him, I give him the verbal cue and he's great because he knows I will reward him after they pet him. Only problem now is the silly old boy always starts drooling but at least he's neutral to strangers!!!


Yep, I've done the same thing. It's not always convenient to round up such people, and yes I pay out money to Mickey D's, Applebee's, etc for the privilege on a regular basis, but that's what I always considered to be the cost of doing business. In fact, several of my runners get paid with food as well as me using my gas to pick them up at their homes, take them to the training sites, and then bring them home again. I don't make excuses why that I can't do this or that. I find a way. Years ago, I was at a cadaver seminar. Several folks kept bringing up the fact that they couldn't find source. The instructor finally said came out and told them that if they couldn't find a way, then get the hell out of HR work. The hardest thing of doing trailing is finding people willing to lay the trails. But rather then give it up, I find a way to make it work. My runners have lives, homes, families tec. so I have built up a network to draw from. For their time I pay my runners in food, gas, or helping them with their dogs because that's the just the costs of doing business.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Sarah Platts said:


> Matt,
> 
> I liked your latest Sali vid. I liked the way you were considerate of the other people and cognizant of what was going around you and taking appropriate steps to keep Sali neutral while at the same time challenging her. Your progression of vids show clear improvement on a regular basis. Thank you for continuing to post even in the face of conflicting or even negative criticism. The fact that you can take such advice and not lash out or develop redirection/escapism posts speaks volumes of yourself. Keep up the good work.


Wow, I like that sly back handed slap down of you know who, Sarah. 

Very cool!


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## Nicole Stark

Hey Rick, what are your thoughts on this method? Who'd have thought that a baking pan could be so useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8LKClndexk


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## Matt Vandart

Learned helplessness?


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## Catherine Gervin

hopefully he had steel-toed boots on, too...


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## Nicole Stark

rick smith said:


> i found some more vids of this gsd at various stages of his training. some even have him lighting up and getting VERY vocal and receiving strong corrections


Roll with it Rick and post them. I'm interested in seeing other videos of your work with him.

For what it's worth, it's expected that the kind of work you were doing with him in that video would bring about the stress and behavior shown by the dog. Your video was certainly relevant to the intentions for why the thread was created but your posting it kind of came out of nowhere. I didn't expect to ever see you post a video and once you did there wasn't a lot of background to what you put up. 

You asked for feedback and criticism, which you got. Some people even asked questions for clarification. You also expanded upon stuff as the discussion went along. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter what choices you made if they delivered the results you desired. Some people are going to support some, all, or maybe none of the methods used. 

Admittedly, your handling was more casual then I would expect in that setting and given the history of the dog. You explained why that was, but it doesn't change my opinion. Its just a value difference and nothing more. There are many roads to Rome.


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## Bob Scott

Matt Vandart said:


> Learned helplessness?



DING, DING, DING!

Give that man a cigar. 

Lucky that dog had no idea how to target or the idiots fingers would be gone. 

Pure fear based biter. 

Genetic or created? Who knows.


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## rick smith

re "Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Learned helplessness?

DING, DING, DING!

Give that man a cigar. 

Lucky that dog had no idea how to target or the idiots fingers would be gone. 

Pure fear based biter. 

Genetic or created? Who knows."

-----------------------------------

ditto all of the above

plus imo he was using his "tool" backwards and giving that poor bastard a metal lip to chew on :-(
- i use Hexarmor for those types 

wish the guy would join here so we could speak directly to him


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## Joby Becker

interesting.. thanks for sharing


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Hey Rick, what are your thoughts on this method? Who'd have thought that a baking pan could be so useful.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8LKClndexk


what a pussy I am, I'd put on bite pants at a minimum in that situation.


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## Gillian Schuler

Does it really matter what aggressions one's dog has if one is a handler and not a breeder?

It matters to me, the handler. I have to face the problem and try to sort it.

I remember that years ago, I was involved in Labrador temperant testing. The problem was how to determine whether the dog showed genetic or learned issues. It was eventually decided that it was impossible to tell and to pass the test, the dog had to show the correct Temperament, whether genetic or learned.

I think this has a bearing on the discussion in that if I have a dog that is aggressive to humans, other dogs, I have to deal with it myself. No amount of watching Videos, reading other handlers' posts, etc. will help me. 

It's my dog, my responsibility. If I can't solve the matter, I can ensure that no accidents happen. The dog can live a satisfactory life with Training, tracking, etc. Maybe just not a dog to drag around the town!!!

You would be surprised at how many "aggressive" dogs become fairly neutral at the dog club amongst other dog handlers with their dogs.


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## Matt Vandart

Gillian Schuler said:


> Does it really matter what aggressions one's dog has if one is a handler and not a breeder?
> 
> It matters to me, the handler. I have to face the problem and try to sort it.
> 
> I remember that years ago, I was involved in Labrador temperant testing. The problem was how to determine whether the dog showed genetic or learned issues. It was eventually decided that it was impossible to tell and to pass the test, the dog had to show the correct Temperament, whether genetic or learned.
> 
> I think this has a bearing on the discussion in that if I have a dog that is aggressive to humans, other dogs, I have to deal with it myself. No amount of watching Videos, reading other handlers' posts, etc. will help me.
> 
> It's my dog, my responsibility. If I can't solve the matter, I can ensure that no accidents happen. The dog can live a satisfactory life with Training, tracking, etc. Maybe just not a dog to drag around the town!!!
> 
> You would be surprised at how many "aggressive" dogs become fairly neutral at the dog club amongst other dog handlers with their dogs.


Er, you've lost me Gillian, to what is one referring?


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## Gillian Schuler

Sorry, forget it if it isn't clear.


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## Matt Vandart

Oh no  the Labrador thing sounded interesting


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## Nicole Stark

Just let go and read it again. It will make sense. Gillian has an interesting communication style and train of thought, which it seems that most people can't follow or choose not to. I find her contributions interesting for a lot of reasons.


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> what a pussy I am, I'd put on bite pants at a minimum in that situation.


I read that the first time and thought, that's probably a good idea. Then I read it again and thought all these years people have been purchasing complete suits, at least in some cases for protection and all this time you could have been using a baking sheet, dare I say it… from WALMART. :-D

Hey Joby, nice to see you surface again.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Nicole Stark said:


> I read that the first time and thought, that's probably a good idea. Then I read it again and thought all these years people have been purchasing complete suits, at least in some cases for protection and all this time you could have been using a baking sheet, dare I say it… from WALMART. :-D
> 
> Hey Joby, nice to see you surface again.


Are you real sure WDF is surfacing or sinking!☺


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## Nicole Stark

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Are you real sure WDF is surfacing or sinking!☺


Ich verstehe nicht. :lol:


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## Lee H Sternberg

Nicole Stark said:


> Ich verstehe nicht. :lol:


Whatever you're drinking, can you send me some.☺


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## Matt Vandart

Nicole Stark said:


> Just let go and read it again. It will make sense. Gillian has an interesting communication style and train of thought, which it seems that most people can't follow or choose not to. I find her contributions interesting for a lot of reasons.


I'm not sure whether Gillian is referring to me or Rick.

If it is me, then I think she is getting at Sali's behavior having a learned component then I concur wholeheartedly. It's the other bit I don't get?

It's this bit, I am currently failing to see how this pertains to my situation:



> It matters to me, the handler. I have to face the problem and try to sort it.
> 
> I think this has a bearing on the discussion in that if I have a dog that is aggressive to humans, other dogs, I have to deal with it myself. No amount of watching Videos, reading other handlers' posts, etc. will help me.
> 
> It's my dog, my responsibility. If I can't solve the matter, I can ensure that no accidents happen. The dog can live a satisfactory life with Training, tracking, etc. Maybe just not a dog to drag around the town!!!
> 
> You would be surprised at how many "aggressive" dogs become fairly neutral at the dog club amongst other dog handlers with their dogs.


Could someone please explain, don't worry I lack an ego and won't take offence.


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## Sarah Platts

I get it, Gillian. And you are right.

Matt, people like to say the dog is reactive for this reason or that one. Trained or is reacting due to something that happened earlier. Or that the dog was genetically prepossessed of an aggressive trait. What Gillian is saying is that it doesn't matter why or for what reason the dog is aggressive. It just is and now the owner has to deal with it. I call it "starting from where you stand". It doesn't matter what happened before. What matters is what you have now ( aka - train the dog in front of you).


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## Matt Vandart

Ah, I see, thanks 

I'm glad you explained that, I too like Gillians stuff. I sorta thought it was what she was meaning but fail/ed to see why?
Is this not what I am doing/have done?


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## Gillian Schuler

No, Matt, I meant it generally.


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## Matt Vandart

Oh cool  phew....

Thanks for the input dudette!


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## Gillian Schuler

Dudette indeed!! Some mothers do have 'em....


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## Joby Becker

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Are you real sure WDF is surfacing or sinking!☺


hey,,,at least my dogs never stick their asses in my face  
they just hump me once in a while LOL


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## Lee H Sternberg

Joby Becker said:


> hey,,,at least my dogs never stick their asses in my face
> they just hump me once in a while LOL


Ya know what's crazy, Joby? He never moons the old lady, just me.☺


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## Matt Vandart

Rofl ..............


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## Catherine Gervin

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Ya know what's crazy, Joby? He never moons the old lady, just me.☺


see--chivalry isn't dead!


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## Lee H Sternberg

Catherine Gervin said:


> see--chivalry isn't dead!


OR he just has no respect for my feelings!☺


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## Nicole Stark

Lee, if it helps ya out at all, I had a cat that would do something a little like that except she'd sit at a distance and with her back me me. It didn't matter which direction she was angled at that damned tail would be pointing directly at me. She'd do it over stupid stuff, like once I gave her a mini mow hawk on her head, other times I'd push her over and press her fur in the opposite direction, spin her in a chair, you know all the fun stuff there is to do to cats.

She was kind of an odd creature. She liked ice-cream and had a thing for chocolate. My roommate spanked her kids for eating their Christmas candy through the wrapping only for us to later find out that the cat did it.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Nicole Stark said:


> Lee, if it helps ya out at all, I had a cat that would do something a little like that except she'd sit at a distance and with her back me me. It didn't matter which direction she was angled at that damned tail would be pointing directly at me. She'd do it over stupid stuff, like once I gave her a mini mow hawk on her head, other times I'd push her over and press her fur in the opposite direction, spin her in a chair, you know all the fun stuff there is to do to cats.
> 
> She was kind of an odd creature. She liked ice-cream and had a thing for chocolate. My roommate spanked her kids for eating their Christmas candy through the wrapping only for us to later find out that the cat did it.


That cat should have done more than point his tail at you.


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