# Young Female Mal that won't out off sleeve



## jorge herrera

I have a 7 month female Mal that is very civil in the work and I'm having problems getting her to out off the sleeve. She growls a lot on the sleeve and especially when I'm jerking on the pinch collar as I give her the out command. More often then not I have to hang her and even then it will take 5-10 minutes before she chokes out and releases. I've been practicing the out successfully when she is playing with a rag or stick but it's a whole different story when she bites into the sleeve of the agitator. She has always been a dominant puppy and I'm wondering should I stop the agitation and focus on obedience for a few months or is there something else I can try to get her to out off the sleeve. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## Chris Michalek

teach her to drop her drive on command.


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## Guest

jorge herrera said:


> I have a 7 month female Mal that is very civil in the work and I'm having problems getting her to out off the sleeve. She growls a lot on the sleeve and especially when I'm jerking on the pinch collar as I give her the out command. More often then not I have to hang her and even then it will take 5-10 minutes before she chokes out and releases. I've been practicing the out successfully when she is playing with a rag or stick but it's a whole different story when she bites into the sleeve of the agitator. She has always been a dominant puppy and I'm wondering should I stop the agitation and focus on obedience for a few months or is there something else I can try to get her to out off the sleeve. Any advice would be appreciated.


5-10 minutes to choke out.......:-k


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## Gerry Grimwood

jorge herrera said:


> I have a 7 month female Mal that is very civil in the work


Of course you do.


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## Harry Keely

Shouldn't take take that long to out the hardest dog, you are choking off way wrond dude, on a flat collar you need to pick straight up, roll the collar upwards and inwards to you while rolling your knuckles into the back of the necks/ears at the pressure points behind the dogs neck, as soon as the outs from the choke off give the command simultaneously.

1. one bring a secondary decoy
2. rub a ball or tug next to the dog on the bite / throw it
3.constantly change out toys as soon as the bites and holds for a few seconds present a second toy that will calm the growling whining issue
4. E-collar or pinch
5.Flank the dog you better be quicker than her
6. teach the dog as soon as it outs with its favorite reward
7.etc........ every dog is different so some might and some may not or none or all will work


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## Howard Knauf

You think she's bad now? Keep choking her off whilst giving the out command and and you'll want to shoot her later. It's bad training to do that.


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## will fernandez

lets see the video


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## Kristina Senter

Sounds like you are creating LOADS of conflict. 
Stop using the prong. It amps many dogs up to begin with, and is worthless for choking a dog out. This is one situation where a video might actually help us see where the problems are.


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## Matthew Grubb

If you need to choke off the dog back WAY up in your training.

1) The choke builds grip, posessiveness, and when combined with an out command is a disaster in the making.

2) The dog is 7 months old.... back WAY up in your training.


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## Mike Scheiber

Here is another thread by jorge
www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/5-6-month-old-mali-bite-work-17982/#post232255
Im starting to think someone should chock you out and take your dogs do you even have 1 clue


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## will fernandez

Give the dog whatever your decoy takes before he trains...and I am sure she will out.


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## Adam Swilling

Why are you trying to teach a 7 MONTH old an out?


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## Anna Kasho

Mike Scheiber said:


> Here is another thread by jorge
> www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/5-6-month-old-mali-bite-work-17982/#post232255
> Im starting to think someone should chock you out and take your dogs do you even have 1 clue


I did not realise this was the same dog... I don't see "very civil" and the out problem looks/sounds like you created it... :???:


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## Joby Becker

helpful PM sent...Jorge...


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## jorge herrera

I omitted the fact, but I do give her the out command while choking her out on a pinch collar.


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## jorge herrera

We can't all afford to have the best trainers, but we have to start somewhere.


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## Jennifer Coulter

jorge herrera said:


> We can't all afford to have the best trainers, but we have to start somewhere.


True dat...but don't start with this!!:


jorge herrera said:


> I omitted the fact, but I do give her the out command while choking her out on a pinch collar.


You have gotten some advice and a few pms...are you now more clear about how you should go back and start training the out?


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## jorge herrera

That is a question in my head also, am I simply moving to fast? Is there a basic rule of thumb for when to teach the out?


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## jorge herrera

Harry Keely said:


> Shouldn't take take that long to out the hardest dog, you are choking off way wrond dude, on a flat collar you need to pick straight up, roll the collar upwards and inwards to you while rolling your knuckles into the back of the necks/ears at the pressure points behind the dogs neck, as soon as the outs from the choke off give the command simultaneously.
> 
> 1. one bring a secondary decoy
> 2. rub a ball or tug next to the dog on the bite / throw it
> 3.constantly change out toys as soon as the bites and holds for a few seconds present a second toy that will calm the growling whining issue
> 4. E-collar or pinch
> 5.Flank the dog you better be quicker than her
> 6. teach the dog as soon as it outs with its favorite reward
> 7.etc........ every dog is different so some might and some may not or none or all will work


This advice was very helpful. I'll try it out and let you know. Thanks again for your guidance.


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## Guest

Well, she is young and everyone has their own opinions about that as do I, and I won't get into that, however if you are choking her out for 5-10 minutes and she is still alive, thats impressive!!!!

My point is you are doing something WRONG! Do you know and understand the difference in a lift off and a choke off? If you are doing a choke off correctly and after 5 MINUTES the dog is breathing, sorry but you are doing something wrong. You said you were using a pinch to choke off, thats why I am saying this as a pinch is not effective in a choke off.

If you think a choke off is necessary as I don't think it is, but if you do, a small thin choke chain will make her spit anything in less than 30 seconds if done correctly.


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## jorge herrera

Mike Scheiber said:


> Here is another thread by jorge
> www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/5-6-month-old-mali-bite-work-17982/#post232255
> Im starting to think someone should chock you out and take your dogs do you even have 1 clue


Anytime you grow a pair come to choke me out. I may not have a clue about training dogs but I know an asshole when I see one.


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## jorge herrera

Jennifer Coulter said:


> True dat...but don't start with this!!:
> 
> 
> You have gotten some advice and a few pms...are you now more clear about how you should go back and start training the out?


My mistake, but I am learning from the helpful advice of some. Thanks.


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## jorge herrera

Kristina Senter said:


> Sounds like you are creating LOADS of conflict.
> Stop using the prong. It amps many dogs up to begin with, and is worthless for choking a dog out. This is one situation where a video might actually help us see where the problems are.


I'll try it without the pinch collar, thanks for your help.


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## jorge herrera

Matthew Grubb said:


> If you need to choke off the dog back WAY up in your training.
> 
> 1) The choke builds grip, posessiveness, and when combined with an out command is a disaster in the making.
> 
> 2) The dog is 7 months old.... back WAY up in your training.


OK, I got ahead of myself in the excitement of having a new dog with what I consider awesome drive. Thanks for the guidance.


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## jorge herrera

will fernandez said:


> Give the dog whatever your decoy takes before he trains...and I am sure she will out.


Wow, what a contributor.


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## Mike Scheiber

jorge herrera said:


> Anytime you grow a pair come to choke me out. I may not have a clue about training dogs but I know an asshole when I see one.


yah well thanks :smile: what conclusion should I have teach a dog to bite figure the rest out later


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## Marta Wajngarten

Sounds like the dog has learned that in this context when the "out" is given it means fight harder and grip stronger! If that is the case, adding more corrections is only going to make the problem worse. Does she actually understand "out" in a low stress situations with toys, and do you have a great fast "out" in those situations? Teach it under low stress environments with toys, they try it with a sleeve on the ground without the helper. Maybe even make it a game once she's good at it? Have two helpers, two sleeves, a successful "out" with one means you get to play with the other. 

I like to teach the "out" confrontation free so that the dog never gets into the habit of clamping down harder in anticipation of a fight, instead it lets go fast in anticipation of something better or at least just as fun. THEN I add corrections if they're being stubborn while under stress and a quick correction is needed as a reminder.


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## will fernandez

If you have a 7 month old pup that you say is "civil" in her work why train her in that method. She is 7 months old you know she that she goes over the top in that state of mind and wont listen..why work her that way. Work her in prey so that she doesnt lose her mind and you can get a easier out.

When she is older and understands the out then work her in her over the top drive to proof.

I am willing to bet if she ever bites in the real world it will be 99.9 percent prey induced anyway.

I have been called alot worse than an asshole so you might want to give it another shot


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## jorge herrera

will fernandez said:


> If you have a 7 month old pup that you say is "civil" in her work why train her in that method. She is 7 months old you know she that she goes over the top in that state of mind and wont listen..why work her that way. Work her in prey so that she doesnt lose her mind and you can get a easier out.
> 
> When she is older and understands the out then work her in her over the top drive to proof.
> 
> I am willing to bet if she ever bites in the real world it will be 99.9 percent prey induced anyway.
> 
> I have been called alot worse than an asshole so you might want to give it another shot


You weren't the one I called an asshole. I shouldn't let it get my hackles up. Thank you for your advice and I do have to step back and start again with my pup.


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## jorge herrera

Marta Haus said:


> Sounds like the dog has learned that in this context when the "out" is given it means fight harder and grip stronger! If that is the case, adding more corrections is only going to make the problem worse. Does she actually understand "out" in a low stress situations with toys, and do you have a great fast "out" in those situations? Teach it under low stress environments with toys, they try it with a sleeve on the ground without the helper. Maybe even make it a game once she's good at it? Have two helpers, two sleeves, a successful "out" with one means you get to play with the other.
> 
> I like to teach the "out" confrontation free so that the dog never gets into the habit of clamping down harder in anticipation of a fight, instead it lets go fast in anticipation of something better or at least just as fun. THEN I add corrections if they're being stubborn while under stress and a quick correction is needed as a reminder.


She was very possessive of toys from the beginning when I got her and after a few weeks and some patience she started to release a toy or a tug in a non stressful scenario. She will release a toy or a tug within the first command but I have give her a light tug on the pinch collar. From some of the feedback I'm getting it sounds like I'm getting ahead of myself and maybe should focus on obedience and bite development. Thanks for your insight.


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## Chris Michalek

jorge herrera said:


> She was very possessive of toys from the beginning when I got her and after a few weeks and some patience she started to release a toy or a tug in a non stressful scenario. * She will release a toy or a tug within the first command but I have give her a light tug on the pinch collar*.



That's not really releasing it then is it?

quit with the compulsion on the outs, that's the last place you want conflict.

teach the dog to lower his drive. 

if you can control the drive you can control the dog.

Do you have a relax command? If you don't start building one.

Do you cap the drive before your start working the dog?


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## Frank Hutto

jorge herrera said:


> She was very possessive of toys from the beginning when I got her and after a few weeks and some patience she started to release a toy or a tug in a non stressful scenario. *She will release a toy or a tug within the first command but I have give her a light tug on the pinch collar.* From some of the feedback I'm getting it sounds like I'm getting ahead of myself and maybe should focus on obedience and bite development. Thanks for your insight.


That is key right there. Like was said in the post above mine, if your dog can't do it without compulsion (even if it's slight), she doesn't know the command yet. Sure sometimes dogs get worked up, space out, & need a "reminder", but that should be in the minority. It sounds like your dog still thinks "out" means I'm going to get corrected and dad is gonna take the prize. If your dog doesn't have the out down with you in a playing situation, you can only expect the dog to be that much worse outting on the protection field when her drive sky rockets. You don't want the out to always turn into a fight on the field cause that can cause serious problems down the road. 

One suggestion is when you're playing tug & trying to teach the out. Keep the session calm. Don't get her frantic & crazy. Obviously some dogs are just going to be nuts on their own, but don't contribute to it if that makes sense. Have you seen how Ellis or Ivan teach the out? If not, it may be worth checking out. 

Not seeing the dog or how you play with it or train protection I can't really say anything more than that....


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## Benjamin Allanson

Very true. My mal gets really amped up with the prong. Not a good way to control drive, get him to let go, or teach an out.


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## Gerry Grimwood

I think too many people have listened to too many stories about dogs that wont out and think it's really cool like having a soup can dick.

In reality, if an individual had a dog with a real issue in this area and buddy was attempting to do a choke out without some forethought about the proper equipment :razz: there may be a moment of reflection when said dog turns its attention to the person holding the leash. I could be wrong.

Jorge seems to be open to suggestions and that's always good.


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## Martine Loots

Don't create conflict by punishing the dog. Make her out using a reward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlTb71tcas


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## Gillian Schuler

Apart from reward, there is alo the possibilty of calming the dog, stroking its chest, waiting a few seconds and very often, the dog will release.

A lot of the conflictions occur when the dog won't release, the handler gets narked and tries to force the release.

N.B. If all else fails - use a sledgehammer!!


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## will fernandez

Jorge

Good mantra to train by DWJD..Do what Joao do


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## Alice Bezemer

Get some control over your dog first instead of forcing the issue here...she bites right ? so why bite again if you know you cant get a decent out to begin with...if she bites now she will bite in 4 5 months time as well...start working on having control of your dog and work on your obediance a LOT....when you let her bite again dont start yankin the choke/pinchcollar to get her to out when she is growling and is in a general state of pissed of...out her on the moment that she makes no sound ....so basicly bring some calm into her when biting before even trying to out her to begin with....all you are doing is creating a shitload of conflict in her and trust me in 6 months time you will need a whole range of tricks to get her to out on command.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGr-kAnLsYY

Check out the vid of my young dog with my husband doing bitework and also training the out...it will give you a better idea of what i mean.....now i train KNPV so its not the same as what you do but the bitework is doesnt differ that much appart from you using a sleeve and me a decoy in a suit....keep a good eye on the CHOKE...coze somehow im thinking when you talk about using the choke on your dog that you are doing it completly wrong and at the wrong time....and a helpfull hint for next time? if you are going to ask for help be HONEST and tell EVERYTHING since people otherwise cant or wont want to help you to begin with ok ?


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## Harry Keely

Alice Bezemer said:


> Get some control over your dog first instead of forcing the issue here...she bites right ? so why bite again if you know you cant get a decent out to begin with...if she bites now she will bite in 4 5 months time as well...start working on having control of your dog and work on your obediance a LOT....when you let her bite again dont start yankin the choke/pinchcollar to get her to out when she is growling and is in a general state of pissed of...out her on the moment that she makes no sound ....so basicly bring some calm into her when biting before even trying to out her to begin with....all you are doing is creating a shitload of conflict in her and trust me in 6 months time you will need a whole range of tricks to get her to out on command.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGr-kAnLsYY
> 
> Check out the vid of my young dog with my husband doing bitework and also training the out...it will give you a better idea of what i mean.....now i train KNPV so its not the same as what you do but the bitework is doesnt differ that much appart from you using a sleeve and me a decoy in a suit....keep a good eye on the CHOKE...coze somehow im thinking when you talk about using the choke on your dog that you are doing it completly wrong and at the wrong time....and a helpfull hint for next time? if you are going to ask for help be HONEST and tell EVERYTHING since people otherwise cant or wont want to help you to begin with ok ?


Nice dog, I see he is a Berry II dog, how is he as a producer Berry II, I here good things but whats your take on it.


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## Alice Bezemer

Harry Keely said:


> Nice dog, I see he is a Berry II dog, how is he as a producer Berry II, I here good things but whats your take on it.



sturdy dogs, very pushy bastards lol....eager and quick to learn but also in trying to take control....friendly as hell, loves kids, dogs, people and is a real pushover when he's not working UNLESS hes in a mood and wants his way and then he will try and push his way through which usualy ends in an asskicking for him since he tends to just take what you give...flamable in temper and working...only one real issue that i see with him is that he does not get impressed easy or often which presents problems at times but theres ways around that...attitude is " hurt me and ill hurt you more" very very VERY short trigger in mood which takes some handling at times but hey thats what we like 

theres a lot of berry II out there at the moment...am going to a Berry weekend LOL...all his ofspring are going to have a trainingday at his owners club on december 11 and 12...ill be taking some pic's and making some vids as well and will post em here....


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## Maren Bell Jones

Martine Loots said:


> Don't create conflict by punishing the dog. Make her out using a reward.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlTb71tcas


Thanks for the video, Martine. Looks like an interesting technique for an out with less conflict. Do you ever get dogs who aren't as interested in the extra tug the handler swaps for because it's not as interesting as the leg sleeve on the decoy?


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## Thomas Barriano

Martine Loots said:


> Don't create conflict by punishing the dog. Make her out using a reward.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlTb71tcas


Hi Martine,

I thought you always wanted the dog turning his head to the outside and not the inside like the pup in the video?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Alice Bezemer said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGr-kAnLsYY


That dog is pretty enthusiastic...nice video.

Hey, what's the deal with that leash ? a loop with a single lead coming off it, I've never seen one quite like that. Your husband has tatts on his hands, those hurt :razz:


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## Harry Keely

Alice Bezemer said:


> sturdy dogs, very pushy bastards lol....eager and quick to learn but also in trying to take control....friendly as hell, loves kids, dogs, people and is a real pushover when he's not working UNLESS hes in a mood and wants his way and then he will try and push his way through which usualy ends in an asskicking for him since he tends to just take what you give...flamable in temper and working...only one real issue that i see with him is that he does not get impressed easy or often which presents problems at times but theres ways around that...attitude is " hurt me and ill hurt you more" very very VERY short trigger in mood which takes some handling at times but hey thats what we like
> 
> theres a lot of berry II out there at the moment...am going to a Berry weekend LOL...all his ofspring are going to have a trainingday at his owners club on december 11 and 12...ill be taking some pic's and making some vids as well and will post em here....


Cool beans sounds like a good dog, Yea that will be cool to see some pics and video, be curious to see how they work, structures, temps, maybe you can post some brn numbers to compare to the pics and video back to there gentics. Look forward to it. Oh yea I saw that you put loves kids that means hes not a kid killer I guess AHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHA;-)


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## Alice Bezemer

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That dog is pretty enthusiastic...nice video.
> 
> Hey, what's the deal with that leash ? a loop with a single lead coming off it, I've never seen one quite like that. Your husband has tatts on his hands, those hurt :razz:


special lead with extra handle near the collar for better control 

as for the tatts? yup hes got a few of them lol...same as me...only mine aint visible for the public so to speak...dont like tatts on the arms (well below the elbow) for a woman....

and they hurt ? ehmmmm can i just say PUSSYYYYYYYYYYYYYY







mine didnt hurt all that much and trust me they wernt small either so you being a man and all......need i say more ?


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## Alice Bezemer

Harry Keely said:


> Cool beans sounds like a good dog, Yea that will be cool to see some pics and video, be curious to see how they work, structures, temps, maybe you can post some brn numbers to compare to the pics and video back to there gentics. Look forward to it. Oh yea I saw that you put loves kids that means hes not a kid killer I guess AHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHA;-)



Ill have to look up the BRN nrs coze im not sure who will be there with what dog so ill have to check on that...my guess is its going to be a lot of copy's of the same dog...noticed that most of the ofspring take a strong liking to dad.....

Yes my dog loves kids....but i never mentioned if it was for cuddles or dinner now did i


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## will fernandez

Alice 

Is the club in Dordrecht?


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## Harry Keely

Alice Bezemer said:


> Ill have to look up the BRN nrs coze im not sure who will be there with what dog so ill have to check on that...my guess is its going to be a lot of copy's of the same dog...noticed that most of the ofspring take a strong liking to dad.....
> 
> Yes my dog loves kids....but i never mentioned if it was for cuddles or dinner now did i


Sounds good


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## Alice Bezemer

will fernandez said:


> Alice
> 
> Is the club in Dordrecht?


Nope  its in Ridderkerk but i live next to dordrecht ! why do you know anyone there or a KNPV club there ?
Coze i know just about all the clubs around here ....Our club is PHV Rotterdam Zuid


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## Gerry Grimwood

Alice Bezemer said:


> as for the tatts? yup hes got a few of them lol...same as me...only mine aint visible for the public so to speak...dont like tatts on the arms (well below the elbow) for a woman....
> 
> and they hurt ? ehmmmm can i just say PUSSYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mine didnt hurt all that much and trust me they wernt small either so you being a man and all......need i say more ?


I was talking about tattoos on the hand where the skin is thin, usually painful.

Do you have any on your eyeballs ?? those are painless, you should get a couple.


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## Martine Loots

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Martine,
> 
> I thought you always wanted the dog turning his head to the outside and not the inside like the pup in the video?



No, we prefer the dog to always turn the head in the same direction, which is outside when he's biting the left leg.


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## Martine Loots

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Thanks for the video, Martine. Looks like an interesting technique for an out with less conflict. Do you ever get dogs who aren't as interested in the extra tug the handler swaps for because it's not as interesting as the leg sleeve on the decoy?


At that age mostly not. This method is used to get an out without conflict but it doesn't really "teach" the out. 
This is done afterwards with the belly collar and we start when the dog reaches the stage you describe. Then the time has come to make it clear to him that he HAS to do it 

With this dog that was at 6 months of age so 1 month after that videoclip was taken.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Martine Loots said:


> At that age mostly not. This method is used to get an out without conflict but it doesn't really "teach" the out.
> This is done afterwards with the belly collar and we start when the dog reaches the stage you describe. Then the time has come to make it clear to him that he HAS to do it
> 
> With this dog that was at 6 months of age so 1 month after that videoclip was taken.


Tsja, gewoon aanleerfase en vervolgens plichtfase. Dat zullen ze "daar" toch ook wel snappen.....:-o

Dick


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