# Club Dynamics



## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

I have only been to a few different clubs to train, including the club I am a member at,and I'm sort of curious to know how other clubs run things with regards to organizing training.

Are the clubs TD's structuring the training, so that all club members basically conform to, and follow a chosen training method, set out by the TD? Or, are there clubs where the training is basically a free for all regarding methods? I'm sure there would be clubs in between these two scenarios as well. 

What about tracking? Is there a club day that the TD assists with tracking for the members interested? During OB on club days, is your TD out on the field working with the individual members? Does he oversee the protection work with all dogs, or do the helper work?

Basically curious to see how others run things and how it works for other clubs. Any feedback or insight would be appreciated.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It varies from club to club! The club I belonged to everyone was required to do obedience or they didn't do bite work. Unless you had a particular problem or issue to work on the TD set the training per what the dog needed.
Tracking was also a club activity as well as individuals getting together.
One club here is bite work only. Your on your own for OB unless you want to pay extra of separate classes. 
Not sure on tracking.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Not that this will be so valid...but I like to contribute sometimes :grin:.

One club I went to..very systematic, compulsive long lines, one systematic method of training, only two dogs on the park doing ob...bla bla bla

Another club, everyone and their dog was an individual, various training methods, as many on the park at the same time as long as good control, but.....responsible for your own ob.

I preferred the latter.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Depends on the club.

The first Sch club I went to you could show up early for tracking if you wanted to but it wasn't required. Got quite a bit of help from the TD during the tracking portion tho, so it was money well spent imo. Obedience was eh...nothing I couldn't figure out on my own and you were expected to get most of it done on your own time. Protection was paid per dog and the TD was the helper. Part of the reason I left was he couldn't get anything out of my dog and I knew there was something there wanting to come out.

Second Sch club I went to we never did tracking unless you wanted to do it privately with one of the TDs. The first hour or two of our meet time was people doing whatever OB on the field. I liked it a lot partially cause of the distraction of a couple different handlers and their dogs being on the field at the same time and I got some good input from other club members. But you got to do the OB however you felt comfortable doing it with your dog. Our TD was one of the helpers that we used and he was always really good about talking to me about what he saw in my dogs during the session which helped me a lot.

The FR club I am in now we do both OB and the protection portions. Things are adapted to the individual dog and there is more emphasis on developing the handler than the other clubs I have been to, which has been valuable. I'm not sure if it's me or the sport or what, but the dog who has been through all three clubs with me has advanced further faster at this club than the other two. So yeah, I am happy.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

We/club pritty much title the n00bs first dog for them they can hold the leash and we work with what little talent they may or may not have and eventually they become trainers if they don't like doing it our way they can go piss around else ware and wast someone else's time our membership is by invitation only.
I have to ask why would any one allow a n00b's to walk on to there field and allow them to train there way for something they know nothing about.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I visited a club. The members take a dog out of their car one at a time and train obedience first until all the dogs have had a turn. They start by building a little drive with a tug or ball on a rope or whatever the dog likes and then they do an obedience pattern, probably for whatever title they're training for. Some are just doing heeling, down stays, sit, heeling etc. and others are working on retrieving and over the a-frame or wall. Most of them are practicing without additional instruction. People will tell them if their dog missed a down out of motion so they don't have to look. They'll hold long lines for the retrieve with a new dog. Probably if someone was starting on something new, like their next title they would get some more advice.

After all the dogs have done obedience, they pull dogs out one at a time to do protection. Mostly they're going through the motions of a particular excercise that would be part of a trial and not discussing it a lot.

The club is almost 15 years old and they've titled over 100 dogs. They have a lot more experience in sport than I do but I think they're training is barely competent. Most of the club has soft dogs that walk around with their heads and tails tucked. They don't down, they duck. The hot shots have expensive imported dogs. I think they buy them with Sch3 titles already. They say their world-level dogs, but I think they're talking about the Sieger because the dogs look like shitters in the blind to me. If one of the high-end dogs misses a command, the handlers get totally pissy. Losing your temper, getting pissy and striking the dog are like the top three training solutions. The dogs get by. They even get titles apparently, but the bitches run the club.

Does that answer the question?

I'm a n00b and I could appreciate a club like Mike describes if it has a way to innovate in training. Dog training has advanced a lot from one decade to another and while not everything new is better, a club can get stuck with old ways and no new ideas. I may be a n00b, but I actively seek out methods that are working from the best sources who can prove it with results. I mean, for a common problem like getting reliable outs, a club can just keep jerking the dog's prong or they can say to themselves, we need to find a better way and try working with a non-compulsive method. Another thing, the club I visited, nobody was using remotes. Remotes are great tools but clubs have to figure out how to use them effectively. I don't favor a particular method but I think a TD should be able to discuss Koehler, Raiser, Hilliard, Booth, Dildei, Balabanov, Ellis, Plumb intelligently whether they agree, disagree, follow or not. Of course it's impossible to be competent in all the methods, but it only takes maybe 100 hours to learn about them so you have something to draw on besides the way you've always done it. TD's should be fluent in the concepts of classical and operant conditioning, and markers whether they're more or less inclined to employ those concepts in any given situation. I might waste a lot of time analyzing something when someone else could solve it with a hard jerk on the leash but some clubs want to just keep doing things their way and tell anyone with a different idea to piss off. If they're really on the cutting edge (and I don't mean with the latest fad) and they've got results to prove it, I want to join.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

A lot of people just want to wander about in training, doing this and that, disapproving of this and that. However, most of these people don't title dogs.

I think that people get a TD and that person should help with training, but that is not just sit down stand heel. That means that he should let them train with other people who are successful, and help them to take what they liked and help them with it.

When a club, or people in a club are new, I don't like to say: THIS IS HOW IT IS. Not when it comes to training style, or method.

I do think that people need to go out and see how others train, and or bring them in to train with them.

After a bit, the club will have to get serious and take the methods that they like best, and put together a program that fits them.

At that point, the new guy gets no say in how he wants to train. As awful as that sounds, most new people have read two books 8 articles, and have a dog that can sit, and not pull on a leash, but want to rewrite someone else's training. I see that a lot. I like to call it the 6 month syndrome. They train for about 6 months, and then they run their mouths on the sidelines, the dog usually never really goes any further, because now they actually have to work hard.

Everybody is a dog expert, just ask them. LOL


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I belong to a club that doesn't have a TD they are more along the "mentor" mentality. Which sometimes works ok but a lot of times it doesn't. Guess they decided some years ago after the dictatorship that they operated under they wanted something else. 

Nothing wrong with having different training ideas but when you have people going every which way it can get a little confusing, actually more like a cluster fuk. I really like the club I belong to but when I see the noobs walk on to the field to do obedience with no game plan and wander around in a daze it drives me insane and trust when I say that is a short trip these days. Most times they get offended when you try to offer advice because such and such's book said do it this way. I usually tell them that's fine and dandy but at the moment they aren't here. I won't even go into the problems trying to explain to people that during the hot months we try and do protection early and first. For some reason they cannot comprehend why they shouldn't do all three phases in 90 degree plus heat with 80% humidity.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback! I am not looking to save the world by making any changes at my current club - at all. Just curious what others do. I guess there really isn't a right or a wrong way when it comes to how club members work together provided everyone is working together and not against each other.

For me personally, I don't want to be told that I MUST conform to a certain method. I agree that newbie's to the club do need a certain amount of direction, but I have a method that works for me and my dogs and I am having good success with it, so I would never want to be part of a club where I was told to change.

There aren't very many clubs in my area 1 in my city, and two about 3.5 hours south, and one less active club about 7 hours south....so, I don't have a lot of options regarding my choice of club. I would just like to make the best of the club I have and train my dogs.

Thanks again for the input!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I've had 3 experiences that seem to sum up the range of clubs out there. I love the club in the middle of the road. And I haven't gone to the other clubs for years...

Club 1 : SchH only. You do it their way or else. :roll: And there's no flexibility in method to accomodate off-breed dogs. Focus is solely on titling.

Club 2: PSA, PPD, FR, SchH - whatever your dog shows promise for. You have to take at least 2 private OB lessons before you can join the group for bitework. TD adapts training for each dog and is AMAZING working off-breed dogs. A mix of dabble-dogs and people winning titles. LOVE this group!

Club 3: Anything goes. A group of dabble-dogs with no TD. Everyone is a "trainer." They don't title many dogs. #-o


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I am a member of 2 SchH clubs currently. Saturdays, at the one in Windsor(consists of new people all the way up to National and World competitors) tracking is done once a week as a club, obedience is done on your own for about an hour prior to bitework unless someone is entered into a trial, and then it is set up more as you will see during competition time. The main rule is ..No obedience..no protection. Tuesday it is rare we make it out and it is OB/Protection only. This is a GSSCC club and holds seminars/trials. 


At the other group(not an official club and is more geared towards being more “user friendly” due to mostly being brand new people to SchH)
we occasionally track as a club on a Sunday afternoon, we begin training at 2 pm and anytime someone wants to track we’ll set up time to do it. Extra Help which is included in fees, is something we offer when people are falling behind or having a problem in a certain phase.
Obedience on Sundays is 30 minutes on your own and then 30 minutes of group obedience with our TD directing us. After that we will also run though trial stuff if anyone is wanting to do that. People are guided by the TD but you can train basically how you want, we have people using clickers, people more into compulsion based training with little reward, and everything in between. Suggestions and help is given but in the end you are allowed freedom to use or not use the methods you want. We like to see people go out and visit new clubs, trainers and attend seminars, we never stop learning…Visitors are always welcome and we often have trainers from other clubs join us. After training the helper gives everyone an overview of their dog in protection and it is question/answer time if there is anything you want to know in any phase or about the sport or dogs in general. Our helper does suit work as well for those interested in Ring and we plan on adding Ring as a Thursday night option next year once we get the field set up for it. 

In Protection it is more left up to the helper to guide you and the dog along.

Wednesday it is OB on your own and protection to follow about an hour after start time.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> *
> I think that people get a TD and that person should help with training, but that is not just sit down stand heel. That means that he should let them train with other people who are successful, and help them to take what they liked and help them with it.*


This is a good point Jeff.
I have had TDs who actually got pissed at me for going to check out seminars and other trainers simply as a learning experience. The TD I am with now encourages me to go and see other trainers and decoys and to learn. It speaks volumes to me when a trainer is secure enough in themselves and their abilities to do this. I think it also builds trust between the TD and the student.

Plus, it encourages discussion about different methods and when they should be used or on what dogs. Different styles of training don't always have to create arguments, but can give us multiple options to go to when working with different dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The TD's job is to get their club to grow, both in numbers, and in skill level. I have heard many people say that they are gonna wait till _______ shows up again, and he/she will train it. That is crap. 

This is also advice for the "new" club, not a well established club. At some point, the club should have gotten enough experience to have their own program, and have success with it. 

New people have no patience, think that training is always going to be this perfect looking thing, and that the dog is just going to go along with the program, and it will look clean and beautiful all the time. When it gets messy, too many will blame the club for it, and start wandering looking for that clean and beautiful thing. Not going to have success as a club, if you allow new people to wander the earth all the time, ONCE YOU ARE ESTABLISHED.

Some people just start to melt under the pressure of having a dog that looked great, then got a little blast of hormones and now needs to be corrected. For some reason corrections are the devil with new people. Probably all the bullshit people post on forums about positive training. : )


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Just a little generalizing going on about newbs there Jeff. :-\"


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't really see the n00bs that stay in clubs. I see the n00bs that wander the earth. Everything is a generalization, pretty much.

Take a poll, and see how many of the people on here are actually in clubs.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't really see the n00bs that stay in clubs. I see the n00bs that wander the earth. Everything is a generalization, pretty much.
> 
> Take a poll, and see how many of the people on here are actually in clubs.


There have to be newbs who stay in clubs otherwise we wouldn't see people advancing in their training and their sport. I am a newb. I am in a club, and we even have another newb. *gasp* 
And holy shit, we are dedicated too.

Wouldn't one loose newb status after wandering for a little while? At some point you just become lost, not new.

You do realize that I am mostly messing with you, yes?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I really don't respond otherwise.

I would love to see how many on this forum are actually in clubs. There is too much independence going on. I don't mind it, but forming a club is sort of a serious thing to plan out.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Then start a poll. Seems easy enough.
I'd be surprised if people didn't take the time to answer an simple yes or no question...but then again stranger things have happened.


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## Virginia Rulli (Jan 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The TD's job is to get their club to grow, both in numbers, and in skill level. I have heard many people say that they are gonna wait till _______ shows up again, and he/she will train it. That is crap.
> 
> New people have no patience, think that training is always going to be this perfect looking thing, and that the dog is just going to go along with the program, and it will look clean and beautiful all the time. When it gets messy, too many will blame the club for it, and start wandering looking for that clean and beautiful thing. Not going to have success as a club, if you allow new people to wander the earth all the time, ONCE YOU ARE ESTABLISHED.
> 
> Some people just start to melt under the pressure of having a dog that looked great, then got a little blast of hormones and now needs to be corrected. For some reason corrections are the devil with new people. Probably all the bullshit people post on forums about positive training. : )



Obviously you have met people just like myself, because you have so perfectly described my experience so far. You have hit the nail on the head here! 

Thanks for putting it in perspective. I've come to accept all of what you describe recently, one must faithfully accept a training method in order to advance.

- From someone who is tired of wandering the earth.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

At our club the protection work and tracking are pretty much 100% managed/supervized by the TD. OB is where we get guidance from experienced members + the TD and then are checked at the the club field after working on our own on certain exercises, good learning curve. We pretty much track 2-5 days a week depending on the training level of the dog, TD will work with us even on weekdays after work to get tracking to a level where he is satisfied. We do bite work 3 times a week. The experience level of the members and TD is high (Regional, Nationals + Worlds level) so needless to say the dogs are categorized anywhere from club level dogs to National level dogs based on genetics/nerve. Very interesting stuff to observe the difference between the dogs and understand the different approaches to training based on the individual dog. What I really like about our club is that the TD takes the extra time to ensure the handler understands the reasoning behind a training plan. The goal is very clearly defined, train and title dogs in Schutzhund. Not so serious handlers with non suitable dogs do not last very long, some become serious and get better dogs, some move on to less serious clubs.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The TD's job is to get their club to grow, both in numbers, and in skill level. I have heard many people say that they are gonna wait till _______ shows up again, and he/she will train it. That is crap.
> 
> This is also advice for the "new" club, not a well established club. At some point, the club should have gotten enough experience to have their own program, and have success with it.
> 
> ...





Virginia Rulli said:


> Obviously you have met people just like myself, because you have so perfectly described my experience so far. You have hit the nail on the head here!
> 
> Thanks for putting it in perspective. I've come to accept all of what you describe recently, one must faithfully accept a training method in order to advance.
> 
> - From someone who is tired of wandering the earth.


:lol: I haven't been around much but Ive been keeping track as to whats been going on sounds like your on the rite track with dog training.
So I want to further discuss brisket with the husband.:lol:


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The TD's job is to get their club to grow, both in numbers, and in skill level. I have heard many people say that they are gonna wait till _______ shows up again, and he/she will train it. That is crap.
> 
> This is also advice for the "new" club, not a well established club. At some point, the club should have gotten enough experience to have their own program, and have success with it.
> 
> ...





I liked this post. Good points!


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## Virginia Rulli (Jan 26, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> :lol: I haven't been around much but Ive been keeping track as to whats been going on sounds like your on the rite track with dog training.
> So I want to further discuss brisket with the husband.:lol:


By the grace of my husband's amazing meat grilling skills, I have found my niche at a GREAT club and learning how to be a dog trainin' girl! LOL


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

I have been to a few clubs, based on moving around the country and in Europe.

One thing is to ensure that the TD should have trained a few dogs, from puppy on up, to be able to work with someone on training. It cracks me up the number of TDs that tout training for SCH, etc when they have trained 1-2 dogs, basic helper classification. Not much. But, that is what they hang their shingle on.

“Club 2: PSA, PPD, FR, SchH - whatever your dog shows promise for. You have to take at least 2 private OB lessons before you can join the group for bitework. TD adapts training for each dog and is AMAZING working off-breed dogs. A mix of dabble-dogs and people winning titles. LOVE this group!”

This was the type of club I was part of in the beginning. BIG club, but more with enough experience, helpers, etc that it worked. With a smaller club and only 1-2 helpers, it does become more restrictive. And it seems more prevalent in the smaller clubs that members will be training client dogs (taking away from member dogs) and the infamous s*** disturber: could be a combo of both. 

Someone contacted me about a change in clubs. She was one of the 1st members of a SCH club that just started the other year. She paid in full. They had a paid trainer/helper that would focus on the kennel dogs 1st and then the club dogs. More often than not, training for the club was cancelled (1/2 the time, they were not told about it) or shortened due to the kennel dogs being worked. That is another type of club; one to avoid.


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