# Leash Pressure



## Brian Anderson

Leash Pressure is one of those things in training I have gone back and forth on. These days I don't even use the leash for most of it. 

I'm interested in what you think about leash pressure when teaching. How do you use the leash? What are you thoughts?


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## Anita Griffing

Brian Anderson said:


> Leash Pressure is one of those things in training I have gone back and forth on. These days I don't even use the leash for most of it.
> 
> I'm interested in what you think about leash pressure when teaching. How do you use the leash? What are you thoughts?


Could you clarify leash pressure. Using the leash for corrections? And when you say I don't even
use the leash then what do you use.  Also what type of scores are you getting from the methods
you use now?
Anita


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## Joby Becker

Not in Brian's head.

But, here are some Michael Ellis vids on it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayKD9taWBFM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzfvEMCtrIE&feature=related


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## Anita Griffing

Thanks Joby,
Pressure until dog does correctly then release of pressure..so new...lolol
What were Ellis' scores in schutzhund?  Don't know him.
Anita


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## Joby Becker

Anita Griffing said:


> Thanks Joby,
> Pressure until dog does correctly then release of pressure..so new...lolol
> What were Ellis' scores in schutzhund?  Don't know him.
> Anita


have no clue, was just putting up the video, to possibly demonstrate what Brian meant by leash pressure. I didnt even watch it.

Eating breakfast and watching Imus...and checking out the net..


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## Anita Griffing

Thank you again. I appreciate it. (at work bored)
Anita


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## Randy Allen

Not real sure, but I think M. Ellias is more known in the ring circles than in SchH. But I also think he has his creds in the SchH. arena.
If I understand his philosiphy correctly leash pressure is used as a learning tool AFTER other training issues(?) have been capped, and not before or in lieu of.


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## Edward Egan

To expect everything M. Ellis teaches to be new is not realistic! Keep in mind most of his video's he's teaching a group, he'd be considered incomplete if he didn't cover all the basics. He put's a new twist of a lot of things but not all.


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## Joby Becker

not sure who implied it was new? LOL....

not me certainly, just an example on video....


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## Edward Egan

Anita Griffing said:


> Thanks Joby,
> Pressure until dog does correctly then release of pressure..so new...lolol
> What were Ellis' scores in schutzhund?  Don't know him.
> Anita


This quote.


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## Randy Allen

Unless you have the formula for the 'theory of everything', there's nothing that's absolutely new.

Nothing.


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## Joby Becker

Edward Egan said:


> This quote.


ahh..yeah...


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## Anita Griffing

It just seems to me that people use new words or more PC words for the same thing.
Correction: stimulation or compulsion or pressure
Choke collar: gag reflex
I saw a woman that used the choke for a correction. She said it wasn't a correction
it was making the gag reflex so the dog would stop. 
Anita


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## Randy Allen

No Anita, 
It is not just pc words or pc training.
It's what works and if to be believed and followed works out quite well from my understanding.

Personally it's not my style, but as I don't know more then a smattering of how Ellias trains start to finish I'm sure as hell not going to crap on it.
He's a lot more successful than I am. And I suspect you are.


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## Connie Sutherland

Randy Allen said:


> Not real sure, but I think M. Ellias is more known in the ring circles ...


MR

http://www.usmondioring.org/News/Nationals/Nationals.htm


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## Selena van Leeuwen

We do!!!

S.


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## Lisa Brazeau

Anita, Michael does not play Schutzhund, except to decoy and train exercises.

Check out some of the top dogs in Schutzhund, and you will notice that a lot of them have the kennel name, Loups du Soleil. That is Michael's breeding program.

And, in Michael's system of training, leash pressure exercises serve many purposes - 
1. You teach the dog to yield to leash pressure* before* you are at the stage of correcting for disobedience. That way your dog understands how to turn off corrections when they happen, instead of flipping a lid, coming up the line, or going into avoidance.
2. It's a tool used to manipulate the dog's positioning in a variety of exercises, in a way that doesn't stress the dog out. You can teach leash pressure on a flat collar if you really want to.

It's a great tool for a variety of temperaments. For soft dogs, it's actually a confidence booster. My squishy Presa no longer wigs out at the slightest bit of leash pressure. She actually ramps up and moves with the leash, because she understands I'm helping her to get it right (and a reward is coming soon). With my high-drive, hard, malinois, it supresses her just enough to get her back into thinking mode when her volume is too high and she's all over the place. But it doesn't crush her or piss her off.

NEW? Who cares! It works.


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## Brian Anderson

Anita Griffing said:


> Could you clarify leash pressure. Using the leash for corrections? And when you say I don't even
> use the leash then what do you use.  Also what type of scores are you getting from the methods
> you use now?
> Anita


leash pressure= pulling the dog into the position you want rather than letting him find it himself and marking. Corrections are a different matter all together. 

what do I use if not a leash..my voice and the dogs mind. 

what kind of scores do I get in sch? I don't train sch. I do train with a sch group off and on but we also do PP and suit work.


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## Bob Scott

leash pressure is also used to create an opposition reflex in the dog. Holding back on the leash when the dog wants a bite can create frustration which can build desire/effort to get the bite.
The Michael E definition is a completely different use of the term.


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## Brian Anderson

Bob Scott said:


> leash pressure is also used to create an opposition reflex in the dog. Holding back on the leash when the dog wants a bite can create frustration which can build desire/effort to get the bite.
> The Michael E definition is a completely different use of the term.


I use opposition reflex when teaching the stay ... I will apply leash pressure. I guess thats the term for it... all these big fancy terms escape me lol..


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## Howard Gaines III

Randy I would agree. You can polish a rock, but it's still a rock. New terms, a few new bells and whistles...and you have NEW![-X

Cross training from one venue to another is still an innovation, nothing new. Verbal marker training isn't new, but it does beat the old 'yank and crank' method of training. And if you give your dog a fish...you're working in the wrong venue!:-o


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## Brian Anderson

Howard Gaines III said:


> Randy I would agree. You can polish a rock, but it's still a rock. New terms, a few new bells and whistles...and you have NEW![-X
> 
> Cross training from one venue to another is still an innovation, nothing new. Verbal marker training isn't new, but it does beat the old 'yank and crank' method of training. And if you give your dog a fish...you're working in the wrong venue!:-o


LOL my dad used to say "what do ya get if you paint a turd?" ..." a painted turd of course!"


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## Randy Allen

Hey, I like the fish idea!
Sounds like a good distraction in the middle of the field during some OB work. 
Talk about a high value reward for compliance!

Yeah yeah, I like it.


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## Anna Kasho

Bob Scott said:


> leash pressure is also used to create an opposition reflex in the dog. Holding back on the leash when the dog wants a bite can create frustration which can build desire/effort to get the bite.
> The Michael E definition is a completely different use of the term.


I taught one dog the cue to move over, just a light touch and "move" to give with the pressure. Otherwise she pushes back as hard as you do. Just found out this translates to leash pressure also, when not cued she resists, when told to "move" she will give and can be guided into position. Kinda neat. 

And to think, I only taught her this to move her over when she's sleeping on the couch or the bed. LMAO :lol:


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## Lisa Brazeau

Brian Anderson said:


> leash pressure= pulling the dog into the position you want rather than letting him find it himself and marking. Corrections are a different matter all together..


Not in ME's system of training![-X


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## Brian Anderson

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Not in ME's system of training![-X



Lisa I am not familiar with the ME method ...


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## Thomas Barriano

Howard Gaines III said:


> And if you give your dog a fish...you're working in the wrong venue!:-o


What if you teach your dog to fish?


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## Ariel Peldunas

Thomas Barriano said:


> What if you teach your dog to fish?


Then you and your dog will eat for life.

Or you get a spot on Animal Star.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Brian Anderson said:


> I use opposition reflex when teaching the stay ... I will apply leash pressure. I guess thats the term for it... all these big fancy terms escape me lol..


See I thought you were talking about the opposite. It seems that there are two seperate things being talked about here.

1) Teaching the dog to give in or yeild to the pressure of the leash, invloves breaking the opposition reflex for certain training goals such as being able to manipulate the dog with a leash and collar with very little strength and make micro adjustments in heeling and such.

2) Using the dog's opposition reflex by pulling on the leash to have them pull back on it to maintain a static position...such as a down/stand/sit.

I believe that the two ideas are pretty much mutually exclusive. If you taught a dog to yeild to leash pressure (ie to move with the pull of the leash), you can no longer really try to pull the dog out of possision in a downstay for example and expect their opposition reflex to help keep them there or be a cue for them to stay there.


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## Joby Becker

Jennifer Coulter said:


> See I thought you were talking about the opposite. It seems that there are two seperate things being talked about here.
> 
> 1) Teaching the dog to give in or yeild to the pressure of the leash, invloves breaking the opposition reflex for certain training goals such as being able to manipulate the dog with a leash and collar with very little strength and make micro adjustments in heeling and such.
> 
> 2) Using the dog's opposition reflex by pulling on the leash to have them pull back on it to maintain a static position...such as a down/stand/sit.
> 
> I believe that the two ideas are pretty much mutually exclusive. If you taught a dog to yeild to leash pressure (ie to move with the pull of the leash), you can no longer really try to pull the dog out of possision in a downstay for example and expect their opposition reflex to help keep them there or be a cue for them to stay there.


I would imagine it could still be done if dog was in a static position, you could still use the opposition....while using guidance for other things, also imagine depending on a few things, could be confusing


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## Jennifer Coulter

Joby Becker said:


> I would imagine it could still be done if dog was in a static position, you could still use the opposition....while using guidance for other things, also imagine depending on a few things, could be confusing


Well they ARE crappy generalizers, so it you were careful you certainly could use mess around with both I suppose. But I did teach my current dog to yield to the leash from a static position, so I kind of wrecked my chances there. An example would be being able to move the dog when learning with easy leash pressure into better guarding positions in a down, staying square to the decoy. 

In the past I use to put my dog in a long down stay and try to pull it out of position. It served as a cue for the long out of sight down stay I have to do for my yearly test.

Now I just tell my dog to stay. No leash cues, no trying to pull her to have her maintain the position. Just I don't try to pull her out as a cue or training tool since I taught her to yield to the leash.


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## Charlotte Hince

Joby Becker said:


> I would imagine it could still be done if dog was in a static position, you could still use the opposition....while using guidance for other things, also imagine depending on a few things, could be confusing


I do both. I actually started fiddling with her opposition first. Zeph was so leash dead when I got her that any kind of non-cued repositioning became an epic battle. I just decided to go with it and got it cued so she'd resist on her flat collar when cued with a sit or a down. 

When I really started messing with her heeling where we were having forging issues I went back and got her to start moving with the leash on a prong. I really only messed with it on a 'let's go' or a 'heel' so it seems to apply only in those instances. No resistance whatsoever even with her flat collar now. 

It's not something I'll try to replicate since I think it's likely a great way to confuse the crap out of your dog but it worked in relation to other commands in a kind of hamfisted unintentional way. I'd actually be fine if we just obliterated her opposition reflex all together but it's not something I care about pushing.


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## Brian Anderson

This thread (and many others) demonstrates clearly why the forum format is a piss poor way to discuss dogs and dog training. I would have thought (silly me) that the two words "leash pressure" would have been self explanatory. Its pretty funny really .... but reminds me and hopefully reminds you that this is NOT a way to learn about training dogs lol. It is a good way to waste time and get a good chuckle though :grin:


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## Jennifer Coulter

Brian Anderson said:


> This thread (and many others) demonstrates clearly why the forum format is a piss poor way to discuss dogs and dog training. I would have thought (silly me) that the two words "leash pressure" would have been self explanatory. Its pretty funny really .... but reminds me and hopefully reminds you that this is NOT a way to learn about training dogs lol. It is a good way to waste time and get a good chuckle though :grin:


Did you learn anything about a new way of training in this thread? I thought you mentioned you had never heard of the "other" leash pressure type of work?

So maybe the forum IS an okay place to learn some small things about training dogs LOL

I learned form this thread that there may be two different meanings for leash pressure work. This is useful to me because I help avi dog teams from all over Western Canada with obedience ideas for our exams and general control training. Knowing that people may be thinking about totally different things when I talk about a certain term is important and useful to me. So thanks for starting the thread!


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## Joby Becker

OK now that we have the definitions hammered out....lets talk about how we use leash pressure for teaching...LOL....


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## Erica Boling

I use both in training... somehow my dog seems to figure it out!  I guess it's more contextual and that's how he knows which response to give.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> See I thought you were talking about the opposite. It seems that there are two seperate things being talked about here.
> 
> 1) Teaching the dog to give in or yeild to the pressure of the leash, invloves breaking the opposition reflex for certain training goals such as being able to manipulate the dog with a leash and collar with very little strength and make micro adjustments in heeling and such.
> 
> 2) Using the dog's opposition reflex by pulling on the leash to have them pull back on it to maintain a static position...such as a down/stand/sit.
> 
> I believe that the two ideas are pretty much mutually exclusive. If you taught a dog to yeild to leash pressure (ie to move with the pull of the leash), you can no longer really try to pull the dog out of possision in a downstay for example and expect their opposition reflex to help keep them there or be a cue for them to stay there.


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> What if you teach your dog to fish?


This happens I suppose.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Erica Boling said:


> I use both in training... somehow my dog seems to figure it out!  I guess it's more contextual and that's how he knows which response to give.


Nice!


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## Jennifer Coulter

Nicole Stark said:


> This happens I suppose.


Is that your dog? Nice catch!


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## Nicole Stark

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Is that your dog? Nice catch!


It is or rather, yes he was. I spread his ashes where this picture was taken. He sure enjoyed catching fish. O


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> This happens I suppose.


Cool Picture


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## Howard Gaines III

Thomas Barriano said:


> What if you teach your dog to fish?


 You'll get tons of catfish and NO BASS! :razz:


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## Howard Gaines III

Leash pressure is like horseback riding, any pressure on the reigns or saddle is picked up by the horse. The same can be said about the dog's leash...pressure can calm or amp up the dog, it can help build issues.

So why do some folks walk their dog with the leash held so freaking high and tight...maybe they aren't good leaders? Just a thought...........8-[


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## Brian Anderson

Howard Gaines III said:


> Leash pressure is like horseback riding, any pressure on the reigns or saddle is picked up by the horse. The same can be said about the dog's leash...pressure can calm or amp up the dog, it can help build issues.
> 
> So why do some folks walk their dog with the leash held so freaking high and tight...maybe they aren't good leaders? Just a thought...........8-[


Howard thats a perfect explanation for exactly what I was trying to convey. Thanks for ciphering that out for me. I will remember that!


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## Juan Galvis

Ok to Clarify:

Leash pressure is what Michael Ellis calls his use of the prong collar in the escape portion of the escape/avoidance paradigm.

Some people is confusing it with corrections, leashes, choke collars...etc...but remember that you can use a prong collar (or any aversive tool) both as an avoidance or a escape tool. Again leash pressure is a term referring to the escape portion (R-).

Now what can it be used for:

-As a directional tool for positioning dog
-As a teaching tool due to its reinforcing effect once correct position (behaviour) is achieved and pressure ceased
-As an introduction to aversives training to lessen any risks of diminishing the dogs character and confidence
-As a precursor for the effective layering of the e-collar

Now off course this is not new, is part of the escape/avoidance quadrants of operant conditioning R- and P+ it is used very effectively in the training of horses. For those interested in learning from other disciplines of animal training look up Pat Parelli or Buck Brannaman who incorporate R- in the form of leash pressure in their approach.

In the dog world Lisa Maze is a very good leash pressure trainer as well, in fact I think she coined the term?


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## Brian Anderson

Juan Galvis said:


> Ok to Clarify:
> 
> Leash pressure is what Michael Ellis calls his use of the prong collar in the escape portion of the escape/avoidance paradigm.
> 
> Some people is confusing it with corrections, leashes, choke collars...etc...but remember that you can use a prong collar (or any aversive tool) both as an avoidance or a escape tool. Again leash pressure is a term referring to the escape portion (R-).
> 
> Now what can it be used for:
> 
> -As a directional tool for positioning dog
> -As a teaching tool due to its reinforcing effect once correct position (behaviour) is achieved and pressure ceased
> -As an introduction to aversives training to lessen any risks of diminishing the dogs character and confidence
> -As a precursor for the effective layering of the e-collar
> 
> Now off course this is not new, is part of the escape/avoidance quadrants of operant conditioning R- and P+ it is used very effectively in the training of horses. For those interested in learning from other disciplines of animal training look up Pat Parelli or Buck Brannaman who incorporate R- in the form of leash pressure in their approach.
> 
> In the dog world Lisa Maze is a very good leash pressure trainer as well, in fact I think she coined the term?


Juan I appreciate your post. Except I am not nearly sophisticated enough to really even understand your explanation. I really did mean it as the same basically as guiding a horse via reins or via voice.


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## rick smith

the analogy to a horse lead certainly applies, but in other ways it doesn't because of course the handler is not riding the dog and the lead placement is much different 

when i'm with anyone i just try and get them to minimize any use of the lead, or drop it completely
(not talking here about about using it to make the dog yield, just using it period)
- of course everything now takes longer  .. not a problem for me as long as the handler doesn't get too frustrated and quits trying

- the way i explain it :
- the reason i tell them they WILL overuse/abuse a lead ... is because it is in their HAND and they are holding it  ... 
- same applies to Ecollars sometimes 
- i will sometimes have em tie it to their waist ... i know, funky looking and easy to get fouled up, etc ... which is often EXACTLY the point i often want to get across to them


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## rick smith

that WAS a GREAT pic !! ... real or posed ???


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Howard Gaines III said:


> Leash pressure is like horseback riding, any pressure on the reigns or saddle is picked up by the horse. The same can be said about the dog's leash...pressure can calm or amp up the dog, it can help build issues.
> 
> So why do some folks walk their dog with the leash held so freaking high and tight...maybe they aren't good leaders? Just a thought...........8-[


Yep, exactly!


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## Brian Anderson

rick smith said:


> the analogy to a horse lead certainly applies, but in other ways it doesn't because of course the handler is not riding the dog and the lead placement is much different
> 
> when i'm with anyone i just try and get them to minimize any use of the lead, or drop it completely
> (not talking here about about using it to make the dog yield, just using it period)
> - of course everything now takes longer  .. not a problem for me as long as the handler doesn't get too frustrated and quits trying
> 
> - the way i explain it :
> - the reason i tell them they WILL overuse/abuse a lead ... is because it is in their HAND and they are holding it  ...
> - same applies to Ecollars sometimes
> - i will sometimes have em tie it to their waist ... i know, funky looking and easy to get fouled up, etc ... which is often EXACTLY the point i often want to get across to them


Rick I beg your pardon sir!! I have specially built bits and bridles for these boney assed herders...and a couple of midgets on the payroll to steer them HAHAHAHAH :-D


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## Joby Becker

Brian Anderson said:


> Rick I beg your pardon sir!! I have specially built bits and bridles for these boney assed herders...and a couple of *midgets* on the payroll to steer them HAHAHAHAH :-D


"little people" Brian, "little people".......:roll:


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## Juan Galvis

rick smith said:


> the analogy to a horse lead certainly applies, but in other ways it doesn't because of course the handler is not riding the dog and the lead placement is much different
> 
> when i'm with anyone i just try and get them to minimize any use of the lead, or drop it completely
> (not talking here about about using it to make the dog yield, just using it period)
> - of course everything now takes longer  .. not a problem for me as long as the handler doesn't get too frustrated and quits trying
> 
> - the way i explain it :
> - the reason i tell them they WILL overuse/abuse a lead ... is because it is in their HAND and they are holding it  ...
> - same applies to Ecollars sometimes
> - i will sometimes have em tie it to their waist ... i know, funky looking and easy to get fouled up, etc ... which is often EXACTLY the point i often want to get across to them


As far as horses go it is common to see (for example in left or right turns) the trainer just stand to the right or left applying pressure (start a constant pull on the lead) and let pressure go once the horse turns his head (yields to the leash). Then once behavior is learned you can sit on the horse and replicate. In other words leash pressure is independent of wether you are on top or just standing to the side. 

Tying leash to hand can be a useful approach just to simplify the process for someone just to get the feel, but it is definite bettter to learn to use the hands specially with dogs as you will need to freedom from leash for various reasons, such us presentation of reward, tug play, tossing ball...etc


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## rick smith

..... monkeys on the greyhound racers ?


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## rick smith

Tx Juan, i get it, really i do ... just funnin
and when you get good you can let em off lead and use your knees ...


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## Juan Galvis

:grin::grin:


rick smith said:


> Tx Juan, i get it, really i do ... just funnin
> and when you get good you can let em off lead and use your knees ...


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## 90dogdel

Brian Anderson said:


> How do you use the leash? What are you thoughts?


"how do retractable leashes work"

Brian Anderson read this article I think it gives your question answer.


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