# 49 Days...



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

How much stock do you put into the idea of obtaining a puppy at 49 days or seven weeks? When I can, I like to get them at 49 days as I feel the bonding time with the human could be stronger. It also has alot to do with how they are handled and raised when they hit the kennel...:-k


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

hey howard,i usually have gotten my pups around that age too but recently got a pup at 16wks and my training and sociallisation has flown i was very surprised.Its a few things, better training and the pup being able to handle more and gentics as well.now as far as bonding goes im not sure yet time will tell


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I pretty well live by it. Over the years, the best adults were pups that I got at seven weeks or not much older. If someone can raise them ideally then older might be okay. But there aren't many that are going to do what I do between 7 and 16 weeks.

T


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

I dislike puppies. The longer I can coerce the breeder to hold on to them, the better. I don't feel that I have missed any bonding time.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nothing beats working with puppies! I like to get them at 6 wks.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I pretty well live by it. Over the years, the best adults were pups that I got at seven weeks or not much older. If someone can raise them ideally then older might be okay. But there aren't many that are going to do what I do between 7 and 16 weeks.
> 
> T


I haven't had too many which were bad as a result of it! 
It's a fine line but one I would rather have, trusting others to start the process to MY WAY of thinking might not be good.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Nothing beats working with puppies! I like to get them at 6 wks.


 Bob my new GSD was 6 1/2 weeks when I got him. I see some things with him that makes this work...A Frame work today and the trust he has. Turned right around and wanted more, just couldn't figure out how to get up it.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Four pups in the last 20 years....

First one was a shelter rescue that was about 10 weeks when I got her. Good dog, awesome temperament, despite, or maybe because of spending 5 days in a cage before I could adopt her. My dog, though she would blow me off in a heartbeat to hang with my nephew any time she got to see him.

Ten years later, I picked up my Malinois from his breeder at 9 weeks old. He was with his littermates until I picked him up. He is the ultimate Mama's boy. 

My DS came to me at 6 weeks old. She is not a cuddly dog, so I sometimes think I could leave her by the side of the road and she wouldn't notice. My friend tells me she watches my every move and I wouldn't get anywhere without her. 

Last puppy was my foster. He was 12 weeks old when I got him and had been with his littermates until then. He bonded very quickly to me and me to him. I had him for six weeks and I'd probably still have him if he hadn't been adopted. Pretty sure he's as bonded to his new owner as he ever was to me.

I don't think it much matters what age you get them at - the dog I got from a barn at 5 years old was as much 'my dog' as any puppy I've ever had and was from the moment I told him he could get in my car and come home with me. I think it has more to do with the individual dog than with the age that you take them home.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

agree with Bob 6 weeks


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I've had experiences with 7 personal dogs. 

I got most between 8-10 weeks. Raised one from birth. Got our current two at around 12 weeks.

Personally I think 7 weeks is pushing it. I think the 5 and 6 week are VERY crucial and should be spent with the litter mates and Mom. I feel bad experiences in the 5th and 6th week can stay with a dog for their life. 

Puppies should be puppies until they are at least 12 weeks old IMHO. House training, bonding, and very simple, basic obedience only, (sit, come) during 8-12 wks.

Craig


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

IMO crucial to get them away from dog/dog influence. If you're not influencing them something will; BUT you better make sure you do your environmental conditioning with other dogs outside the home. I think Dick Staal's book covers it pretty well, before that it was Clarence Pffanberger & Scott & Fuller. Practiced it for years, the only way to fly for me...JMHO


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Steve Estrada said:


> IMO crucial to get them away from dog/dog influence. If you're not influencing them something will; BUT you better make sure you do your environmental conditioning with other dogs outside the home. I think Dick Staal's book covers it pretty well, before that it was Clarence Pffanberger & Scott & Fuller. Practiced it for years, the only way to fly for me...JMHO


 
7 weeks has never been pushing it for me. Absolutely no dog aggression or interest for that matter. I've always had an older dog but other than introductions and such, mostly puppy is with me the first 6 months or so, then I may let them go out with the older dog(s). They might meet selected other dogs as in being around them on lead but that's it. I test for the most environmentally sound and they go out and about with me to different places and such. That pretty much does it. 7-16 weeks is crucial enough that I don't want it screwed up. Mostly its just bonding time with me; housebreaking schedule; baby training with sits, down, heel and getting them around livestock.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

few things I can see a pup getting out of being kept within the litter from 8-12 weeks are better fighting skills, resource guarding skills, and possible serious injuries, at least with certain types of dogs anyhow. my .02


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I have had them from 6 to 12 weeks old and never really saw any difference in bonding with me or how they worked with me or how they interacted socially that I could attribute to age that I got them. The most reliable dog I ever had was a 6 weeker.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> few things I can see a pup getting out of being kept within the litter from 8-12 weeks are better fighting skills, resource guarding skills, and possible serious injuries, at least with certain types of dogs anyhow. my .02


With my foster dog, I would have to agree with this. Not sure how much was genetics, how much being kept with his littermates, but I saw what seemed to me to be a lot of reactive aggression from him. The female pup that I was going to foster was seriously trying to take on my then two year DS bitch when they were introduced. I saw that ending badly and ended up with a male pup instead.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Leslie you're saying that the longer they stay together as litter mates, the better the chances for antisocial behaviors?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> How much stock do you put into the idea of obtaining a puppy at 49 days or seven weeks? When I can, I like to get them at 49 days as I feel the bonding time with the human could be stronger. It also has alot to do with how they are handled and raised when they hit the kennel...:-k


Howard I don't think the age of the dog/pup makes a bit difference when it comes to developing a stronger bond with the human because I have seen just as many dogs who were obtained as adults who develop as strong and sometimes stronger bond with their new handlers as any dog obtained as a puppy. I think it has everything to do with the skills and abilities of the handler and nothing to with the age of the dog/puppy.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Leslie you're saying that the longer they stay together as litter mates, the better the chances for antisocial behaviors?


I'm agreeing with what Joby posted. I don't have remotely enough experience to say this absolutely, and I think it depends on the puppies, but I believe that the foster pup I had was adversely affected by being left too long with his littermates. Or he was just a badly bred pup with a crap temperament or a bit of both or maybe none of the above.

Just speculation on my part, but if you have high drive pups that are also possesive and have some fight in them, then yes, leaving them together to sort things out amongst themselves is going to result in them scrapping with each other. I also think that the litter I got my foster from learned it was either fight, defend yourself or go down. 

There are sweet-natured easy-going pups and then there are pups that can get pissy and angry. 

I recall Mike Suttle, my DS's breeder posting that he separated pups at 5 weeks before they started beating the crap out of each other and causing serious injury. Perhaps he'll comment on this? I have spoken to another breeder of GSDs who said around 7 weeks, his pups started to get really nasty with each other and that was an ideal time for him to start sending them home. .

Then again, I have been told that separating puppies too early will lead to *bad things*. I don't see that in my DS, who was 6 weeks old when I got her. She's a nice dog... neutral to humans and other dogs, a little hard on strange cats and other critters, but otherwise easy to live with (for a Dutchie).

Just my limited, anecdotal experience, fwiw.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

If you separate the pups early, I think they get a chance to be more confident. If you notice every time you take out the dominant pup another one steps up.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> If you separate the pups early, I think they get a chance to be more confident. If you notice every time you take out the dominant pup another one steps up.


The breeder of one of my puppies actually swears by this. She says she separates early so they can develop fully which she thinks is negatively affected by being putshed around by the more dominant pups.

T


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Timothy Saunders said:


> If you separate the pups early, I think they get a chance to be more confident. If you notice every time you take out the dominant pup another one steps up.


This makes lots of sense to me. Seen the ones that stand back and watch, now they don't. Lead, follow, or get out of the way!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Howard I don't think the age of the dog/pup makes a bit difference when it comes to developing a stronger bond with the human because I have seen just as many dogs who were obtained as adults who develop as strong and sometimes stronger bond with their new handlers as any dog obtained as a puppy. I think it has everything to do with the skills and abilities of the handler and nothing to with the age of the dog/puppy.


I second that Susan.

My first dog in Switzerland was an import Landseer (white/black Newfoundland) that I imported at 12 weeks.
He was quite an independent little "B" but the only difference between getting them older is, you have to assert your authority more.

As for bonding - this dog was mine from the word go - he would protect me from all and sundry and Toni was sort of left out of the equation. When we went into the forest and Toni had to nip out for a pee, Ben would run after him and pee over his urine!! He challenged Toni when he held his lead.

Not conducive to peaceful relationships betwen 2-leggeds. 

Buster, now 8 yrs old, I took home at 7-8 weeks and the bonding was the same as with the above but Buster developed differently from the Landseer. He is definitely "my" dog but is far more wary of people he doesn't know and would probably defend me even against Toni. However, he "loves" Toni. I have the feeling he would try to fight anyone who caused harm to him which is, in effect, a security for me when I am near him.

I am convinced however that I have loved and love my dogs but they have no feeling of "love" for me. They are dependent upon me for food and shelter and enjoy my company when living with me. However, apart from a certain few that would protect their owners from an assault, I see dependency is the main feature and is often mistaken for "I love you Master".

It's very difficult to categorise the dogs. I have been able to bond with shy dogs that their owners had said I couldn't even touch.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

After 48 days they are no good you might as well just get another puppy! JMO


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

I got Gana at 12 weeks. At 16 weeks she met my husband, I was sitting with a bowl of food on my lap in the garage to do some training, and she went and sat in front of him. She did not spend much time with him as he was working in London, she became his dog when she had her quarantine complete at a year old, there is no doubt whose dog she is!

My last 2 I raised from birth, 1 is super bonded to me, 1 is more independent.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Louise Jollyman said:


> I got Gana at 12 weeks. At 16 weeks she met my husband, I was sitting with a bowl of food on my lap in the garage to do some training, and she went and sat in front of him. She did not spend much time with him as he was working in London, she became his dog when she had her quarantine complete at a year old, there is no doubt whose dog she is!
> 
> My last 2 I raised from birth, 1 is super bonded to me, 1 is more independent.


 
My mother used to say that a GSD has one master and he will choose. For me its not so much "the bond" as what I llike to instill at an early age. I've had them at 6-12 weeks, 6 months and 9 months. My preference is still 7 weeks and I've said I'd never do beyond 16 weeks again

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Seems from whats written here its as much about the temprement of the dog and wheather it bonds to you then its age


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> After 48 days they are no good you might as well just get another puppy! JMO


Are you serious?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

5 years ago, got a puppy from a well, questionable breeder that didn't do anything more than leave mom and pups in a cement kennel (boarding kennel environment) and let his kids play with the puppies. I took that puppy at 5 weeks (a mistake, we thought she was 6 weeks) and put her in with my neutral adult female that I used for puppy socializing previously. I took full advantage of the 6 - 12 weeks period and it resulted in a brilliantly easy to train dog.

My latest puppy cam from an awesome breeder (Red Star Kennel), raised in the house to 10 - 11 weeks old, socialized, trained, etc. I was happy to buy him at 12 weeks old and have been surprisingly pleased with the result. I did not have to fix any problems that I would have expected from a puppy left with a breeder for so long.

It depends on what environment the puppy is in with the breeder. If you can do better than the breeder (and it's not illegal in your state), then go for it.

It's not at all about "bonding" for me. It is about realizing that between 6 - 12 weeks a puppy wil learn faster than any other time in its life. What do you want it to be learning? If the breeder provides it, awesome. If not (and you know what you're doing!!!) then taking a puppy early might be a better choice.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Are you serious?


 Must be..it was posted! I'd give them just a little more time Maren, not to worry...LOL!!!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> 5 years ago, got a puppy from a well, questionable breeder that didn't do anything more than leave mom and pups in a cement kennel (boarding kennel environment) and let his kids play with the puppies. I took that puppy at 5 weeks (a mistake, we thought she was 6 weeks) and put her in with my neutral adult female that I used for puppy socializing previously. I took full advantage of the 6 - 12 weeks period and it resulted in a brilliantly easy to train dog.
> 
> My latest puppy cam from an awesome breeder (Red Star Kennel), raised in the house to 10 - 11 weeks old, socialized, trained, etc. I was happy to buy him at 12 weeks old and have been surprisingly pleased with the result. I did not have to fix any problems that I would have expected from a puppy left with a breeder for so long.
> 
> ...


 
I question the 6-12 week part where you say they learn quicker then any time of there life i have recently seen that to not be the case and believe the window is wider


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> It's not at all about "bonding" for me. It is about realizing that between 6 - 12 weeks a puppy wil learn faster than any other time in its life. What do you want it to be learning? If the breeder provides it, awesome. If not (and you know what you're doing!!!) then taking a puppy early might be a better choice.


And if the breeder doesn't provide it, why get a pup from that breeder? To me, a breeder should be more than someone who has two dogs they allow to have sex and produce offspring. It's about the pup's environment they grow up in too.

Considering age and bonding, one of the dogs that bonded to me most closely was my Rottweiler, who was 9 years old when we adopted her from the shelter.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't think any breeder can account for every venue or what someone wants the puppy to learn between 6-12 weeks. Ours have left between 10-12 weeks and you get crate trained, leash broke, socialized away from the house [a couple of farm visits and dog event usually] and on a schedule for house breaking. I don't expect any breeder to do stock and farm stuff with my potential puppy. I don't do anything special for agility or obedience other than tell you which puppy has the best aptitude for it. Everyone has their own training style, program whatever. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

brad robert said:


> I question the 6-12 week part where you say they learn quicker then any time of there life i have recently seen that to not be the case and believe the window is wider


I believe that as well. I find that a motivated driven dog has a very wide window to learn. One of my best agility dogs was 5 1/2 before I started with her and she was like a sponge, she just soaked it up and learnt everything just so quickly. I got her at 10 weeks old and did no formal training with her untill we started agility at 5 1/2. She became a different dog, like she had a new lease of life or something and I still havent had a pup that learnt as fast and as intelligently as she did.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

brad robert said:


> I question the 6-12 week part where you say they learn quicker then any time of there life i have recently seen that to not be the case and believe the window is wider


There is a hefty section on puppy development in the Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training. you can get the details there. I sold my book so I can't look it up for you.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I clicker trained a 5 week old puppy for a couple hours a day through 12 weeks. I've never seen a dog so easy to train and I believe her start had a lot to do with it. I'm not stating that training an older dog is difficult to train, but that we underestimate what can be done with a young puppy.

As far as the type of training, it was not terribly structured. I was marking gait, positions, leaving a room (voraus, pre-send out), coming back (recall, attention, pre-leave it) If you see everythinge the puppy does as a behavior that can be shaped into one of your end-desired behaviors, you can do a lot with little effort and zero stress on the puppy. In the puppy's mind, the world is a fun place it can control to win thousands of rewards. I'm not talking about your typical "training session" training.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I question the 6-12 week part where you say they learn quicker then any time of there life i have recently seen that to not be the case and believe the window is wider


That is a moot point.

It all boils down in my mind to how much the owner invests in the 7 week or 12 week old pup and how open h/she is to "communicating" with it. This has not primarly to do with time but with how much you let the pup / dog know "who you are" and how much you can read about the pup / dog you have in hand.

I think it is a very difficult subject, but interesting. Many owners tell of how much time they spend with their pups / young dogs but they rarely speak of the quality of such. 

Sometimes, 5 minutes, just watching the pup / young dog can help assess its character.

However, never forget - one minute in your company and the 4-legged has sussed you out.

Why are we so slow??


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That is a moot point.
> 
> It all boils down in my mind to how much the owner invests in the 7 week or 12 week old pup and how open h/she is to "communicating" with it. This has not primarly to do with time but with how much you let the pup / dog know "who you are" and how much you can read about the pup / dog you have in hand.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe it is Gillian and its a hard thing to asses as all dogs are different have different learning rates etc but i had always believed the best time to get a pup was the age most have stated here but my most recent pup was over 16wks and the rate this pup learnt at was incredible and like sarah had said with her dog mine was a sponge as well and it was like the pup was just waiting to be tapped into.In saying that the breeder laid an awesome foundation of focus with the pup of the pup looking at her face before feeding and i have never had to teach it as it has just been there from the day she came home wheather she is in front of me or beside me she is just fixated on my face so that early foundation also worked. 

So true i guess moot point LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> ... Everyone has their own training style, program whatever.
> T


Terrasita this is a good point. If I know you are buying a BC from me for the purpose of livestock work AND it doesn't work out, no fault of the owner, I give your purchase price back. This doesn't apply to pets. I do want to see and test it to confirm it's a non-worker. 

Since everyone has their own style and how they raise dogs, it's important to know before they buy what they want and what training will go into it down the road. I have never had an issue with my Bouviers either.

If more "breeders" were concerned with their puppies and not the money, I think fewer would see animal shelters. If more owners did checks on the breeds/lines/uses, fewer would see the inside of the SPCA!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Terrasita this is a good point. If I know you are buying a BC from me for the purpose of livestock work AND it doesn't work out, no fault of the owner, I give your purchase price back. This doesn't apply to pets. I do want to see and test it to confirm it's a non-worker.
> 
> Since everyone has their own style and how they raise dogs, it's important to know before they buy what they want and what training will go into it down the road. I have never had an issue with my Bouviers either.
> 
> If more "breeders" were concerned with their puppies and not the money, I think fewer would see animal shelters. If more owners did checks on the breeds/lines/uses, fewer would see the inside of the SPCA!


 
That's why I hold onto mine until 10-12 weeks. It gives me time to put them through their paces and evaluate them away from home once they've had their vaccination. If its going to a stock home, I would have tested it for instinct traits and confidence before it leaves here and I video and send it to the person. One owner wanted the do it all dog. He's titled in herding, tracking, obedience agility and was my pick. Another that's in a primary agility home [also pick] but is certainly in the do it all category has the higher level titles already and at a very young age. So far if its left here as a working puppy or I selected from some other litter for someone, it didn't disappoint. There's been some screwed up training on a couple but that's not under my control. I try to go and watch them trial and to their training classes. But more often or not they want to listen to the guru trainer rather than the person that brought them here so you reap what you sow.


T


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

terrasita cuffie said:


> ... But more often or not they want to listen to the guru trainer rather than the person that brought them here so you reap what you sow.
> T


 love it!!!=d>


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

start your dog as soon as it eyes open i when to the tom rose school were i saw 22 trainers start with pups 5-10 wks of age. if u have the right program and do your drive building u can create a beast of a dog. is saw border collies and labs hitting sleaves like mals twards the end of class i highly dout thayt you coud get consistant results lige this if you wait until there older.

teach attention frome the start. all good comes from you. it will stick with them through life. whiy let them learn bad habits in the bigining only to have to fix them later. 

in my opinion it is the most valuable stage of a dogs life DONT WASTE IT


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