# KNPV ph1 to SchH1



## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Hello:

I currently only work KNPV dogs and work them in KNPV exercises, or close there to.

Carlos and my new dog from Mike Suttle I will leave and work in the KNPV exercises, but I'm strongly considering transferring my other stud dog UZI to Schh. He has his knpv certificate with a score of 423. He definitely is stable, clear headed, and has good focus. I have a few seminars planned that I would like to work him under the KNPV banner, but possibly once they have concluded I would like to take him down the schh avenue and attend related seminars under that discipline.

Any general posts in relation to what the good, bad, fun, miserable, and challenges maybe in this endeavor, I would love to read them. Thanks in advance...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> Hello:
> 
> I currently only work KNPV dogs and work them in KNPV exercises, or close there to.
> 
> ...


targeting 
escort
guarding 

these seem to me like they would be the more critical areas of the protection phase. Hate to be the training decoy for the courage test


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> targeting
> escort
> guarding
> 
> these seem to me like they would be the more critical areas of the protection phase. Hate to be the training decoy for the courage test


Thanks Joby. I guess I forgot to use the adjective "dangerous" to my list of potential hurdles lol...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> Thanks Joby. I guess I forgot to use the adjective "dangerous" to my list of potential hurdles lol...


suppose that would depend on the dog, and your effort/timeframe.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hve1FAkHLuE&feature=player_embedded


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Uzi will target a sleeve just fine in the long bite, and his grip is super on a sleeve. The transport won't be that hard to teach, he will guard in a blind in the front now with a little guidance. Of the three ph 1 dogs you have from me, Uzi is the one I'd choose for schh if I were going to pick from those three. 
As you well know his food drive is good so I don't think tracking will be terribly
Difficult. It will take a while to get his KNPV obedience flashy enough to score high in schh though. With a little work it can be done. But don't expect big scores with him.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

super. no worries then mate


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dammit .......I'm obviously logged in as Ariel. The above post was mine, not hers.
Mike Suttle


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Agreed Joby. I definitely think a lot depends on the dog and how he/she is introduced to the new exercises and the completely new targeting for the attacks.

I have already begun training basic schh style tracks (from step one) with him, as this won't affect him in the KNPV routines that I am still working him in. He will target a sleeve nicely, but we will see. I'm super motivated to do it, but only by using the correct building blocks and techniques to see him succeed.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Uzi will target a sleeve just fine in the long bite, and his grip is super on a sleeve. The transport won't be that hard to teach, he will guard in a blind in the front now with a little guidance. Of the three ph 1 dogs you have from me, Uzi is the one I'd choose for schh if I were going to pick from those three.
> As you well know his food drive is good so I don't think tracking will be terribly
> Difficult. It will take a while to get his KNPV obedience flashy enough to score high in schh though. With a little work it can be done. But don't expect big scores with him.


I think we posted the same time. He does hit the sleeve super nice, his OB is nice enough to not have to use new commands. Just need to make it a little nicer/faster/cleaner. 

I like it. I think after Rik and you leave Tampa, I'll start the transition. Choosing to convert the dog you're bringing would be like trying to put a hockey stick in Tiger Woods' hand. Not saying Tiger couldn't score a hat trick of course...


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

jeff gamber said:


> Choosing to convert the dog you're bringing would be like trying to put a hockey stick in Tiger Woods' hand. Not saying Tiger couldn't score a hat trick of course...


The "Tiger Woods" reference above was his highlighting him pre-divorce and pre-marital scandal lol.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Invite greg doud down to your seminar and I am sure he could get you on your way


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Invite greg doud down to your seminar and I am sure he could get you on your way
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


Thanks Will. I'll look him up on facebook...


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

As long as your not expecting super high scores and you don't mind a helper being destroyed on the courage test it should all be good !

Hahahah. Carlos's searching the blind might be more accurately described as Carlos hunting the blinds - could you imagine that dog coming around for a bark and hold in the blinds hahahahahahaha!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Yea I have to agree that probally Uzi will be your best bet from our discussions and what you tell me of those guys.;-) although with Uzi being a KNPV dog and targeted to both upper and lower body parts, I might consider on the safe side and place a board or barrier of something like that to place in front of the decoy to be on the safe side just to make sure and see how he comes in once you start letting him freely run blinds and come in on his own without you checking him on his bark and hold on the blind. Kinda like how you would transition a leg dog to be a upper body dog type deal, you know what I am talking about, you done it before I know because we have talked about it. Good luck with it.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Hahahah. Carlos's searching the blind might be more accurately described as Carlos hunting the blinds - could you imagine that dog coming around for a bark and hold in the blinds hahahahahahaha![/QUOTE said:


> Carlos isn't much of a barker, but he could also be cross trained for schh. I suggested Uzi because he is a better dog than Carlos in my opinion and is a much more intelligent dog and easier to train. Uzi has a better grip, much better attacks, and more will to please his handler.
> Mike Suttle


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I would just be careful about who you let take him on the long bite. 
I think the right type of dog can be cross trained. Take a dog like Rudie Pegge, no doubt he would have also been a great IPO dog.


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## Mladen Bezak (Jan 15, 2011)

For such a good dog, it should be peace of cake. Of course, if you have good helper who knows his job very well, and if you have no intention to compete with him and try to achieve with him some high score.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Carlos isn't much of a barker, but he could also be cross trained for schh. I suggested Uzi because he is a better dog than Carlos in my opinion and is a much more intelligent dog and easier to train. Uzi has a better grip, much better attacks, and more will to please his handler.
> Mike Suttle


Uzi is all of that. A very nice FCI/AKC dog, but with every quality that a true KNPV dog should have. Uzi is a fast learner, super dog on the attacks and should be fun to watch him on the schh field (with the right cross training). Tracking is a breeze with him due to his over the top food drive like we stated earlier. He's just about to enter his prime and I think this will be an enjoyable way for both of us to spend this time.

After the seminar with Rik Wolterbeek, I will travel to the clubs in my area and see which club is the best fit for us in regards to the helper.

In regards to Carlos, there's no doubt that dog could do anything. I would like to think of Carlos running the blinds as "Godzilla loose on Japan", but kidding aside he's such great/fun dog, I have no doubt he would be trainable to do it. I really do feel fortunate to be able to work and enjoy the stud dogs I have gotten from Mike. I have never been happier than the dogs I have gotten from him.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> I would just be careful about who you let take him on the long bite.
> I think the right type of dog can be cross trained. Take a dog like Rudie Pegge, no doubt he would have also been a great IPO dog.





Mladen Bezak said:


> For such a good dog, it should be peace of cake. Of course, if you have good helper who knows his job very well, and if you have no intention to compete with him and try to achieve with him some high score.


Chris you think the escape bite would be equally as "delicate"?

Mladen, I'm not overly concerned with points, just as long as we are both performing to our potential. Just looking to highlight the dog in a different venue which I know he can succeed in...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Just curious guys...are you guys saying that knowing him as an individual dog he wouldn't score real high (i.e.-"not a points dog") or by virtue of doing another sport extensively he wouldn't score real high? Just curious, as a dabbler in several sports. :smile:


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Maren - 


I believe they mean because KNPV obedience is generally not at all "flashy" and Schutzhund is most certainly supposed to be in order to score high. Also, KNPV is very much a pattern sport, and the Schutzhund OB is a totally different "pattern" the dog needs to learn.

I'll be interested to hear how he progresses in his transition training!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Just curious guys...are you guys saying that knowing him as an individual dog he wouldn't score real high (i.e.-"not a points dog") or by virtue of doing another sport extensively he wouldn't score real high? Just curious, as a dabbler in several sports. :smile:


 In my opinion, Carlos for example would not have been a high scoring SchH dog even if he was raised for that from a puppy, he is just not a dog with a lot of will to please his handler, he is not a flashy dog, nor is he easy to motivate in the work, he is a difficult dog to reach if that makes any sense.
Uzi on the other hand would have been a great SchH dog if raised for that from the begining, he is much more intelligent, easier to train, and has a strong will to please his handler. He loves to work. However any 4 or 5 year old KNPV dog would be hard to get high points on in SchH if crossed trained at that age for many reasons. 
In KNPV there is not much effort put into teaching fast, flashy, or focused obedience. So for 5 years the dog has been allowed to sit slow, crab and forge in his healing, finish crooked, take a few extra steps before he downs, etc. This alone will be very time consuming to fix, and in most cases can never be fully corrected. It is always much easier to start with a clean slate and imprint the correct positions from when the dog is a baby. Also the way a good KNPV dog bites will often cost you points in SchH because what KNPV trainers see as a pushing grip, many SchH judges will call "chewy" because the dog doesn't bite one time an hold, instead he pushes in, thrashes one time, then pushes in again making it look like he may be chewing a little.
In tracking, when the dog comes to an article he will pick it up and retrieve it to the handler, this can of course be retrained as well, but all of these things will make it hard to get great scores. 
Then there is the already stated targeting, guarding, and escort to the judge. It can be done, it has been done, but not usually with great scores. Uzi will for sure be easier to do this with than Carlos, but still not as easy as starting with a puppy. 
Just my opinion from the guy who owned both of these dogs and many other PH 1 dogs over the last 10 years.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for the explanation, figured it was something along those lines.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

At my first club we had a dog titled imported and successfully transferred to Sch... At the way to Sch III. The dog was an evil little thing, we called him Osama Bin Bronco. Very impressive dog and very impressive long bite. There were some transfer issues in the beginning... Like guarding in back and not front details that had to be fixed. Note there is a person riding a bike in the BH. I say this as he did take off after a bike rider in the park one day but our helper worked fast to redirect him. In the end nothing a skilled trainer couldn't retrain.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> In my opinion, Carlos for example would not have been a high scoring SchH dog even if he was raised for that from a puppy, he is just not a dog with a lot of will to please his handler, he is not a flashy dog, nor is he easy to motivate in the work, he is a difficult dog to reach if that makes any sense.
> Uzi on the other hand would have been a great SchH dog if raised for that from the begining, he is much more intelligent, easier to train, and has a strong will to please his handler. He loves to work. However any 4 or 5 year old KNPV dog would be hard to get high points on in SchH if crossed trained at that age for many reasons.
> In KNPV there is not much effort put into teaching fast, flashy, or focused obedience. So for 5 years the dog has been allowed to sit slow, crab and forge in his healing, finish crooked, take a few extra steps before he downs, etc. This alone will be very time consuming to fix, and in most cases can never be fully corrected. It is always much easier to start with a clean slate and imprint the correct positions from when the dog is a baby. Also the way a good KNPV dog bites will often cost you points in SchH because what KNPV trainers see as a pushing grip, many SchH judges will call "chewy" because the dog doesn't bite one time an hold, instead he pushes in, thrashes one time, then pushes in again making it look like he may be chewing a little.
> In tracking, when the dog comes to an article he will pick it up and retrieve it to the handler, this can of course be retrained as well, but all of these things will make it hard to get great scores.
> ...


Mike hit the nail on the head. Nothing really to expand on, but I'll reference back to my attempt at my comedy "golf" reference in an earlier post. There's always the higher probability that children that play golf all through their junior high, high school, then college will find greater success in the pros, then someone who tries to play a later age like baseball player transitioning to golf. I hear it a lot on the golf course, "hey, take a look at that guy with the baseball swing." Hence why the pup version of Uzi, I have no doubt would have excelled even with me as his schh handler/trainer.

I like Uzi for all the same reasons that Mike has highlighted through this thread. When I called Mike before the holidays, I told him everything I loved about Carlos, but was looking for a different dog w/a lot more dimensions. Mike sent me Uzi and I couldn't be more happy. I called Mike as soon I got him off the plane, and I told him that dog was exactly what he said. I was super stoked to have him. He has one more dog for me that I will get at the KNPV Seminar in Tampa who will round out my trifecta of males to work. Carlos is definitely Carlos, but nonetheless he is a rock star, producer, and my buddy. Uzi, will be a lot of fun to work in schh. I would take no greater enjoyment than hopefully being able to place a schh1 on him to compliment his knpv certificate. In a nutshell, seriously bad*** dogs!


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

tracey delin said:


> At my first club we had a dog titled imported and successfully transferred to Sch... At the way to Sch III. The dog was an evil little thing, we called him Osama Bin Bronco. Very impressive dog and very impressive long bite. There were some transfer issues in the beginning... Like guarding in back and not front details that had to be fixed. Note there is a person riding a bike in the BH. I say this as he did take off after a bike rider in the park one day but our helper worked fast to redirect him. In the end nothing a skilled trainer couldn't retrain.


You folks were #1 on my list to visit...


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Just my opinion from the guy who owned both of these dogs and many other PH 1 dogs over the last 10 years.


Were any of them retrained for Schutzhund? 

I know there is no amount of "getting through" to my PH1 dog to do anything other than what he has spent the last 5 years of his life doing.. getting a PH1 on him was difficult enough. He has little to no interest in pleasing anyone but himself, is hard to every single type of corrective training measure (short of a 2 x 4) and is simply over the top in everything he does. I enjoy KNPV for the genetically gifted dogs it tends to showcase, but cross training those dogs to do anything BUT KNPV is nothing short of a miracle, lol.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Britney Pelletier said:


> Were any of them retrained for Schutzhund?
> 
> I know there is no amount of "getting through" to my PH1 dog to do anything other than what he has spent the last 5 years of his life doing.. getting a PH1 on him was difficult enough. He has little to no interest in pleasing anyone but himself, is hard to every single type of corrective training measure (short of a 2 x 4) and is simply over the top in everything he does. I enjoy KNPV for the genetically gifted dogs it tends to showcase, but cross training those dogs to do anything BUT KNPV is nothing short of a miracle, lol.


Britney there's many others on this board that can speak on the KNPV as whole more than I can, so I will leave the broad statements to Mike in this thread and those others. In respect to my dogs from Mike, Carlos and Uzi for the moment, I would have to say the willingness to please the handler and the ability to re-train depends on the individual KNPV dog and it's character. 

I truly enjoy working Carlos in KNPV exercises and similar routines w/some variations for new stimulation for him, my new dog from Mike would be the same thing. He would stay strictly in KNPV routines, not because he is not re-trainable, because he is a flawless KNPV dog. No need to mess around with that.

Like I said, working and interacting with Uzi I see that he would have an aptitude to make the transition. Hence, why I started this thread. His food drive is so over the top, that I can have the ability to speed and clean up his obedience, without using compulsion until he learns what I'm asking and expecting as the new handler for the commands I give. Once he learns what I'm expecting, which he already shows high drive to please, we will filter in fair "corrections" for non-execution/compliance when he has that clear understanding. I'm in the very early stages of this for only having him a little over a month, but I see the opportunity for this based on his character, drives, etc. Believe me, Uzi is everything that most people would look for in a KNPV dog, and then some. He has amazing grips, full and pushing, super hard, nasty attacks, and rock solid nerves.

Carlos, completely different dog. I completely agree with Mike that once he is set in motion he is very hard to reach. He will perform the knpv routines without problem, but he has one goal. That is to punish the decoy...

Just my thoughts...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm sure you will be fine, just take the proper precautions while making the transfer of sports, keep it fun and you guys will do just fine and stay away from all the crap that gos on and just concentrate on you and the dog and forget everything else that is going on around you while your doing it and keep it fun.

I also think its a good idea like you stated to make your rounds and visit clubs to see which one suits you and your dog the best, dont let anybody talk you into nothing or joining there club go with your gut. Just my .02 cents. Good luck to ya and Uzi.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> He will perform the knpv routines without problem, but he has one goal. That is to punish the decoy...
> 
> Just my thoughts...


You must be lyin, NO dogs want to punish the decoy, that is what I was told on here before.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> You must be lyin, NO dogs want to punish the decoy, that is what I was told on here before.


Play slap and tickle with the decoy lol?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> Play slap and tickle with the decoy lol?


suck on a suit...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> suck on a suit...


Whats wrong with a dog wanting to suck on a suit :-\":lol::lol::lol: :twisted:










Dont be jealous because my dog sucks and yours doesnt O


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Whats wrong with a dog wanting to suck on a suit :-\":lol::lol::lol: :twisted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dog looks gayer than a SCH dog to me :-o (old joke) at least my dog is female


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Dog looks gayer than a SCH dog to me :-o (old joke)



Hey now! [-X


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Dog looks gayer than a SCH dog to me :-o (old joke) at least my dog is female


 
Is this better for you :razz:, If you ever get to meet him I will make sure I give the right command for him on targeting on you[-o<, he was started on upper body and was doing well on command for upper body or frontal lower and back lower, but we have kinda let him revert back to lower leg, although he will take what he can get and when ever he can get if the person makes it hard for him to get his bite, wheter it be sleeve,suit or hidden equipment that he has been worked on and is doing pretty dam nice on now\\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Is this better for you :razz:, If you ever get to meet him I will make sure I give the right command for him on targeting on you[-o<, he was started on upper body and was doing well on command for upper body or frontal lower and back lower, but we have kinda let him revert back to lower leg, although he will take what he can get and when ever he can get if the person makes it hard for him to get his bite, wheter it be sleeve,suit or hidden equipment that he has been worked on and is doing pretty dam nice on now\\/


just kidding Harry...looks good to me.. I worked a straight crotch biter for years...that was his go to spot..he was a dirty mofo on top of it....I'll pass 

on time I watched one guy take one there from him in a can-am suit, no crotch protection....left the field, went into a bathroom..I followed him in there to see if he was ok, he came out with blood all over his hands...ouch...


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Is this better for you :razz:, If you ever get to meet him I will make sure I give the right command for him on targeting on you[-o<, he was started on upper body and was doing well on command for upper body or frontal lower and back lower, but we have kinda let him revert back to lower leg, although he will take what he can get and when ever he can get if the person makes it hard for him to get his bite, wheter it be sleeve,suit or hidden equipment that he has been worked on and is doing pretty dam nice on now\\/


See, I can get a dog to change it's targeting! Apache was a straight leg dog, I transitioned him nicely into the pocket. I do like what you've done with him though harry


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> just kidding Harry...looks good to me.. I worked a straight crotch biter for years...that was his go to spot..he was a dirty mofo on top of it....I'll pass
> 
> on time I watched one guy take one there from him in a can-am suit, no crotch protection....left the field, went into a bathroom..I followed him in there to see if he was ok, he came out with blood all over his hands...ouch...


Sounds like a well learned lesson to me :lol::lol::lol:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> See, I can get a dog to change it's targeting! Apache was a straight leg dog, I transitioned him nicely into the pocket. I do like what you've done with him though harry


Thanks Jeff yea, we have taken him to a whole other level, you know how I like them ;-):-\", we took the training that you had and had then added commands for upper and lower, and have gotten him off the equipment orientation as well, but like I said that has gone by the waste side some, not his fault, more so mine for slacking. 

Although we did work two scenarios ( house / sliding glass doors & the wifes car ) just for giggles just recently, I couldn't of asked for a better results, where he would kinda hesitate a second because of so much suit work he now engages like a fringing maniac with the hidden, although there was that one incident with Jen's dad and his leather coat:lol:, that I told you and Frankie about back in the day, he now knocks or calls first hehehehehehe. But you guys defently put a nice start on him. Oh yea and thinking of putting him on odor too for fun, nothing more I figure it would be a good filler for him getting older do to little bitework now ( still not 100% sure on this yet ).


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Oh yea hes not a working dog](*,) because hes around my kids and enjoys the house when not out working with him:roll:










Oh yea the mali and dutchies can relax and be normal, not saying that there isnt ones that arent good in the house, just saying there are good ones out there.










Buddies for sure, same dog from the earlier pics. Good ones do exist, hes my third one the other two were dutchies.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Dog looks gayer than a SCH dog to me :-o (old joke) at least my dog is female


sThooper sthexy.


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