# Work that whip!!



## Howard Gaines III

Has anyone found that using the whip in protecton work caused issues in the Schutzhund BH testing and gunfire area? The cracking sound of the whip popper and .22 or 209 primer can cause issues for down the road. Your thoughts...


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## David Scholes

Absolutely! That's how my GSD failed his first try at a BH. He heard that gunshot during his long down and went to go get the shooter, I'm sure thinking it was the helper. I hear they no longer use the gunshot in the BH and that incident happened 10 years ago. I'd just make sure to train enough with both that the dog can tell the difference and do the response you want.


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## Jerry Lyda

Train for it, he'll hear the gun shots later. There's no whip in a trial.


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## Mike Scheiber

Jerry Lyda said:


> Train for it, he'll hear the gun shots later. There's no whip in a trial.


Agree plain and simple. There are no longer gun shots in the BH test


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## Geoff Empey

Jerry Lyda said:


> Train for it, he'll hear the gun shots later. There's no whip in a trial.


In Ring we use the gun different than SchH it is used in the 'Attack with Revolver', 'Search Bark and Hold with Escape then Escort and Guard' and for the Brevet in the 'Defense of Handler' We train for to NOT just to mean 'attack' We go for training the dog to be neutral to it and just focus on the handler's commands. No matter what is going on the dog still needs to be in tune with the handler. 

As well I'm toying a bit in SchH I need the dog to be neutral to the gun any ways. 

I don't understand why anyone needs the whip to bring out a dog's drive to bite anyways. If a dog needs a lot of action from the decoy with a whip and or gun to bite there is something wrong with the dog's drive in the first place. I feel the whip as well as the stick/baton are the most misunderstood piece of training equipment that can be used on a 'green' dog. When used to much IMHO on a green dog it just creates a dog that can be to hyper and not calm in the work (especially Malinois) then not in focus with the handler, then there is a danger of becoming equipment fixated as well. Sure introduce the dog to the equipment but put the damned stuff away and not make it a full time program!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

If you need a whip, consider getting a dog better suited for bitework.


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you need a whip, consider getting a dog better suited for bitework.


The whip is required to bring out extra aggression/fight development I require my dog to display in bite work. It is by no means a every day tool or tool I used on my dog when he was young. Fact is my dog needed/needs very little whip he is pissed off most of the time any way.
I'm not training a partner to play checkers with or a agility dog.


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## Howard Gaines III

David that's my point. About nine years ago, my Giant Schnauzer was doing his BH test and off lead. The guy cracked off 2 shots and Cody rolled slightly in front of me as if to say, "Oh you want to play games do you?" Never went for the guy, but the nice heeling pattern was screwed. And he would have gone over to "discuss" the issue!

Nothing like nerves and taking off to hide, he would have bitten the poor turd. But back then all the TD did was use the whip, should have had the mask and boots to go along with the 24/7 use of it.


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## Geoff Empey

Mike Scheiber said:


> The whip is required to bring out extra aggression/fight development I require my dog to display in bite work. It is by no means a every day tool or tool I used on my dog when he was young. Fact is my dog needed/needs very little whip he is pissed off most of the time any way.
> I'm not training a partner to play checkers with or a agility dog.


What I'm trying to say is .. to many people use the stupid whip to bring out aggression in a dog that has no drive. Then they wonder why the dog doesn't bite when there is no whip. Does the whip bring the dog into prey mode or does it put some dogs into defense. I guess both drives are effected by the whip depending on the dog. 

Same thing with the baton in French Ring, there is only 3 exercises that use a baton then why do some TD's use the baton or a whip with everything during foundation training? The dog ends up looking/waiting for the placebo crutch which these 2 tools can become to bring out aggression in a trial .. then guess what? The Dog/Handler team gets a big fat ZERO!


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## Daniel Cox

Howard Gaines III said:


> Has anyone found that using the whip in protecton work caused issues in the Schutzhund BH testing and gunfire area? The cracking sound of the whip popper and .22 or 209 primer can cause issues for down the road. Your thoughts...


Since their is no gunfire in the BH this is not a problem anymore. With SCH1 OB this can cause a problem with some dogs, I think it just depends on the dog. I have seen many dogs break the long down during the gunfire or get very restless. This is something you must train for. For the dogs this causes a problem and I am not talking about dogs that are scared of the gunfire. I am talking about the dogs that this stimulates then you need to proof your OB with the gunfire and even the sound of the whip. You should have no problem putting your dog in a long down during protection. With proper control this should not be an issue. If you do not have enough control in the protection and your dog gets stimulated by the gunfire in the OB then it could be a bad day. Go back and work more control with whip cracking and gunfire.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Fact is my dog needed/needs very little whip he is pissed off most of the time any way.

So did he really need it ?? You will never know.

A good dog will do what he needs to. If you need the whip, then does that make the dog less ??

Quote: The guy cracked off 2 shots and Cody rolled slightly in front of me.

Howard, pushing into you is not a good sign. I see that as insecurity, not protecting you. I have worked too many dogs that push up against their owners FOR security to think that is anything else.


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## Daniel Cox

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Fact is my dog needed/needs very little whip he is pissed off most of the time any way.
> 
> So did he really need it ?? You will never know.
> 
> A good dog will do what he needs to. If you need the whip, then does that make the dog less ??
> 
> Quote: The guy cracked off 2 shots and Cody rolled slightly in front of me.
> 
> Howard, pushing into you is not a good sign. I see that as insecurity, not protecting you. I have worked too many dogs that push up against their owners FOR security to think that is anything else.


Jeff,
I had a showline that I washed because when he would hear the gunfire he would push into me. I found him a nice pet home. I had no time to try and fix his problems with gunfire. The funny thing is that when we were at home watching violent movies in surround sound with big ass speakers he would would lay there like nothing was happening. We walked out on the field one day and did some OB and someone did some gun shots pretty far away and he was glued to my leg. I already knew protection work was not for him but I guess this just helped me find him a new home much quicker. Sometimes you have to see things for yourself and then you realize what the true problem is.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Sometimes you have to see things for yourself and then you realize what the true problem is.

Yes, but so many think this is the dog doing something heroic or some shit. LOL


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Fact is my dog needed/needs very little whip he is pissed off most of the time any way.
> 
> So did he really need it ?? You will never know.


Well he could have made very nice seeing eye dog had we not lit him up and tapped in to see who is in there. 
Many ways to go with a good Shepherd and many ways to go about it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So basically your dog had to be trained to show aggression. That is my one of my problems with Sch. Why can't the dog just go out and do the dang routine ?? Let the dog show what he is without all this artificial crap.


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## Kristen Cabe

Thank you! 


Now how do you go about politely telling your TD that you'd prefer that the whip not be used during bitework with your dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I like to use the phrase, "put that shit down, I don't want you using it on MY dog"

Try it, you'll like it.


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So basically your dog had to be trained to show aggression. That is my one of my problems with Sch. Why can't the dog just go out and do the dang routine ?? Let the dog show what he is without all this artificial crap.


And the rigamarole's you ring people go through to train your dog is all unnecessary. Guess if I need a dog to keep a eye on one of my favorite baskets I'll be giving you a call :-o


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## Geoff Empey

Kristen Cabe said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> Now how do you go about politely telling your TD that you'd prefer that the whip not be used during bitework with your dog?


Just say it! Bottom line it's your dog and if he/she doesn't have a good reason why they should be using it, it doesn't need to be used. I agree it is a tool that may have it's place with some dogs somewhere. 

But I never got the TD prancing back and forth with a Flick pole in one hand a whip in another trying to make the dog angry. It creates neurotic dogs and or masks a dog that probably does not have it!


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## Geoff Empey

Mike Scheiber said:


> And the rigamarole's you ring people go through to train your dog is all unnecessary.


You might be able to fluff and fool your way through a Brevet or a Ring 1. But a Ring II or III no way! The Decoys and Judges *will* find holes in a crap dog fast and it will DQ faster than how Chris Michalek's new pup eats turds. Don't matter what placebo you use to train your dog it'll still fail at Ring at that level if it is a sow's ear.


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## Mike Scheiber

Kristen Cabe said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> Now how do you go about politely telling your TD that you'd prefer that the whip not be used during bitework with your dog?


I don't know you or your TD or his methods. I noticed a couple of BH's on dogs in your sig no Schutzhund titles.
My guess is your TD has in fact titled and help title some dogs he has more experience than you with Schutzhund training??
Guess if you don't like the methods or the way they train find another club or try one of the ring sports or start a club you can run your own show.
My guess is telling your TD how to train your dog probably isn't going to go over very well.


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## Mike Scheiber

Geoff Empey said:


> You might be able to fluff and fool your way through a Brevet or a Ring 1. But a Ring II or III no way! The Decoys and Judges *will* find holes in a crap dog fast and it will DQ faster than how Chris Michalek's new pup eats turds. Don't matter what placebo you use to train your dog it'll still fail at Ring at that level if it is a sow's ear.


What?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He is saying that your dog could not make it to ring three.

I think you should try and teach your dog the object guard. It is pretty fun.


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## Geoff Empey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He is saying that your dog could not make it to ring three.
> 
> I think you should try and teach your dog the object guard. It is pretty fun.


Let alone Ring II .. [-X You should try it Mike then you'll understand.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have done both, and a Sch 3 is a ring 1. Whip or no whip. I love when you get to explain to them that the whip is for a dog that can only do Sch.

Don't worry Mike, I am sure that you will get curious and go and train MR and see for yourself. Then you will see that "tapping" into shit means your dog doesn't have it to do ring. : )


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I like to use the phrase, "put that shit down, I don't want you using it on MY dog"
> 
> Try it, you'll like it.


Jeff three things here:

Happy New Year and I look forward to many great replies to come from you. Many are most informing and worth looking into...
If the dog didn't already show desires to engage the decoy through past training, I could see the security issues. The whip was used to "enhance" training, too much. Too much defense was placed on this dog and in not knowing at that time, I could have screwed him up.
*TDs know what's BEST for your dog, this is the reason they are in the role they have in the club!* Now before folks get their drawers too far north let me say this. MANY TDs mean well and have a strong working knowledge and the skills to improve most dogs in their venue. *HOWEVER *like Jeff said, not with my dog. The fact that it IS YOUR DOG makes what goes on most important.
The whip is a tool used to help build and bring out drives. It can also be something that can mess up some dogs. Testing can be done with other techniques and skilled TDs should use them. NOT WITH MY DOG. This should be honored by the TD and the training methods for that day should be discussed BEFORE going on the field. Since you and your dog are a team, "Put that sh*t down!" 

If the TD has issues, vote them out or move on to save a good or great dog from bad training, same for the e-collar! Spine up and be nice...Thanks Jeff for the information, should it fall on my ears, I'll remember the informational section from which it came!!!:-o :razz:


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He is saying that your dog could not make it to ring three.
> 
> I think you should try and teach your dog the object guard. It is pretty fun.


 That may be my favorite exercise that is why I mentioned it.
Nah not my thing I was out at Midwest Ring Ron & Lisa Gellar's place training last Sunday "Schutzhund if course" and they train at our field on occasion. I have watched more than my share of ring training through the years. Went up to the house after for some beverages and some of Ron's chili and snacks watched Lisa's video performance at the worlds that was fun and impressive great to see another one of our own "Minnesota" dog sport trainers/competitors dominate at high level dog sports.
The bar is set pretty high here for high level training and competing I recognise know what it takes to make it to the top. Way to much shit for me to train for in ring and to be competitive the mal is better suited for the sport also. Though I admire the Malinois no way in hell I could own one I would go nutzzz.
Sorry Schutzhund for me sort of like football and soccer I like football.


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## Geoff Empey

Howard Gaines III said:


> The whip is a tool used to help build and bring out drives. It can also be something that can mess up some dogs. Testing can be done with other techniques and skilled TDs should use them. NOT WITH MY DOG. This should be honored by the TD and the training methods for that day should be discussed BEFORE going on the field. Since you and your dog are a team, "Put that sh*t down!"


Thank you Howard! =D> 

I've had many a uphill battle for placing my trust in a person who has titled dogs or has more experience than me. Gone are those days that I trust just anyone with the leash of my dog. 

Just because the TD has titled a few dogs doesn't mean that you should trust anyone blindly. Trust is something that is earned and that goes for TDs as well. 

We still need to train our dogs to be neutral to the whip pop and gun though. :-$


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## Kristen Cabe

Mike Scheiber said:


> I don't know you or your TD or his methods. I noticed a couple of BH's on dogs in your sig no Schutzhund titles. My guess is your TD has in fact titled and help title some dogs he has more experience than you with Schutzhund training?? Guess if you don't like the methods or the way they train find another club or try one of the ring sports or start a club you can run your own show. My guess is telling your TD how to train your dog probably isn't going to go over very well.



You're absolutely right; me trying to tell _anyone_ how to train a SchH dog would be like an eagle trying to tell a duck how to swim. My TD has titled many dogs in SchH. He's almost 70 years old. I'm 26 and so far only done a BH, but I would prefer that the whip not be used with my dog when we are training in protection because I don't want to have to then turn around and desensitize my dog to the sound of the gun so we can do the obedience routine. It's not that I'm concerned that he will 'mess my dog up' or anything. It's just that I don't want to fool with training something extra that I don't have to. :lol: That's why I asked how one could* POLITELY* inform their TD of something they would rather not do with their dog in training. According to you, we should just blindly follow along and do whatever our more experienced TDs want us to do because they've titled X number of dogs, and if we disagree with anything they do, rather than say anything about it, we should just leave and start our own club. Yeah, that's a great idea. :roll:


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## Mike Scheiber

Howard Gaines III said:


> Jeff three things here:
> Happy New Year and I look forward to many great replies to come from you. Many are most informing and worth looking into...
> If the dog didn't already show desires to engage the decoy through past training, I could see the security issues. The whip was used to "enhance" training, too much. Too much defense was placed on this dog and in not knowing at that time, I could have screwed him up.
> *TDs know what's BEST for your dog, this is the reason they are in the role they have in the club!* Now before folks get their drawers too far north let me say this. MANY TDs mean well and have a strong working knowledge and the skills to improve most dogs in their venue. *HOWEVER *like Jeff said, not with my dog. The fact that it IS YOUR DOG makes what goes on most important.
> The whip is a tool used to help build and bring out drives. It can also be something that can mess up some dogs. Testing can be done with other techniques and skilled TDs should use them. NOT WITH MY DOG. This should be honored by the TD and the training methods for that day should be discussed BEFORE going on the field. Since you and your dog are a team, "Put that sh*t down!"
> 
> If the TD has issues, vote them out or move on to save a good or great dog from bad training, same for the e-collar! Spine up and be nice...Thanks Jeff for the information, should it fall on my ears, I'll remember the informational section from which it came!!!:-o :razz:


Back to the topic fortunite for me I have been around many gifted dog trainers and woulden hesatate handing them my remote fact is most of them are better with it than I same goes for the whip if we had to use a whip to make a dog bite that dog would have been long washed out befor we eaven concidered it. 
The whip is a great and nessary tool for Schutzhund like any thing else asshats that dont know what for, how to, or how mutch can make a mess. JMO


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## Mike Scheiber

Kristen Cabe said:


> You're absolutely right; me trying to tell _anyone_ how to train a SchH dog would be like an eagle trying to tell a duck how to swim. My TD has titled many dogs in SchH. He's almost 70 years old. I'm 26 and so far only done a BH, but I would prefer that the whip not be used with my dog when we are training in protection because I don't want to have to then turn around and desensitize my dog to the sound of the gun so we can do the obedience routine. It's not that I'm concerned that he will 'mess my dog up' or anything. It's just that I don't want to fool with training something extra that I don't have to. :lol: That's why I asked how one could* POLITELY* inform their TD of something they would rather not do with their dog in training. According to you, we should just blindly follow along and do whatever our more experienced TDs want us to do because they've titled X number of dogs, and if we disagree with anything they do, rather than say anything about it, we should just leave and start our own club. Yeah, that's a great idea. :roll:


Well now with more information and your concerns my answer to your post would be different. I wasent trying to be a dink.
Now that you have explained your self if your TD is worth 2 shits he will understand your concern and give a simple solution and there are many.
Since I don't think teaching dog training on internet boards is smart training I will refrain. It isn't any big deal to train for whip and gunfire. 
I feel the benefit your Schutzhund will receive from the whip will out weigh not using it. The little extra in obedience isn't any big thing your TD should be able the explain and coach you through it.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Kristen,

I have had a dog who was gun aggressive. Any loud sound made him very Pissed Off. Training him for the long down wasn't fun- two pinch collars and two lines- he learned to cap but he wasn't relaxed- just a bundle of muscle ready to run down the gun (he was foolishly introduced to the dummy launcher). This was a dog who used a sleeve or suit and would bite anything in his zone when aggitated. Not a good schh prospect after I ruined him with bad training.

Having said that he never trialed. Now with the other dogs neither one needs a whip in protectin training, but we sometimes use it as a tool to bring them all the way to their highest point so they can learn control out of the highest state of arousel. Neither of my 2 current dogs have any issues with the gun because of th whip. OB dogs work in a different lower drive.

Spit happens (usually one trial day) if we train for things we don't expect to see at trial we can be more confident in the whole trialing process. Plus your TD probably has a need for the whip-maybe bringing in the defense/power as your dog enters the blind.

I would just plan on training for it. Most all the trainers that I have ever worked with use a whip on a regular basis with certain dogs.


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## Christen Adkins

> TDs know what's BEST for your dog, this is the reason they are in the role they have in the club! Now before folks get their drawers too far north let me say this. MANY TDs mean well and have a strong working knowledge and the skills to improve most dogs in their venue. HOWEVER like Jeff said, not with my dog. The fact that it IS YOUR DOG makes what goes on most important.


Good post, Howard.


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## Howard Gaines III

Geoff if we ever get you out of Canada swing by Delaware...Show me a real Malinois and the training you are doing and I might just switch teams! Not getting rid of the Big Bouvs yet. :mrgreen: :twisted: 

The whip idea is simple and some folks are somewhat standoffish about telling a person with more Schutzhund titles than Lipton has teabags to "*put it down*." And those whose titles are in other venues also should stand up for what you want for your dog. Here's the big *BUT*...if the person wants training that is wrong for the dog, against the law, or some other issue, like doing something with a dog that is too young or doesn't have the ability, then they need to hear it. 

I never tested a dog beyond its ability to handle reasonable stress; to do so is just standing there on an ego trip and singing about, "Oh the big me!!!" The role of the TD/helper or decoy is an easy one to understand. Cut away all things about them and here it is...they should work the dog on a level and in a safe manner, doing so to produce an animal that enjoys the training venue that you the owner have put it in.

Not everything I do in training is centered around Howard Gaines III! Yeah I know hard to think it!!! The big goal of the training decoy or TD should be one as *the tool* which helps your dog grow. If the TD/decoy/helper is just standing around blowing off about this title and that award...screw that! In the biggest picture, who cares? I don't!! Glad you did well in that area and during that time, but remember, it's MY DOG out there and I want the best for it!!! If I mess it up then it's on ME. \\/


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## Jerry Lyda

I see nothing wrong with using the whip to build drive or to keep dog in drive. Isn't that the same reason decoys run back and forth acting like prey. What's the difference??? It's a tool to get them to understand a game.


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## Geoff Empey

Howard Gaines III said:


> Geoff if we ever get you out of Canada swing by Delaware...Show me a real Malinois and the training you are doing and I might just switch teams! Not getting rid of the Big Bouvs yet.


The closest I'll get to Delaware this year is probably MASS in May for Bob Solimini's FR trial. Mo Earle says he may be going. So I'll be bringing some Sleeman's Beer across the border just like Al Capone did during prohibition! Where is Delaware exactly? South or North of DC? I drove through the eastern states only once when I was a kid to go Spring break in FLA once. That's only a 20 hour drive door to door in a Winnebago! 

I don't think my dog is the best of the best or the superlative 'real' Malinois, she is good and a lot of fun to work but there is so many great Malinois out there it is hard to compare. 

If you ever want we do a real good FR seminar in June with some of the best decoys and judges in the world. Our TD is really serious about using the best and not taking shortcuts I learnt tons last Spring and there is a cheap camp ground with a liquor store within stumbling distance. I'm not sure when school is out for you but that could very well be a lot of fun for the Bouvs my Buddy with the Giant Schnauzer I'm gonna try to talk him into that as well.


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## Candy Eggert

Howard Gaines III said:


> The whip idea is simple and some folks are somewhat standoffish about telling a person with more Schutzhund titles than Lipton has teabags to "*put it down*." And those whose titles are in other venues also should stand up for what you want for your dog. Here's the big *BUT*...if the person wants training that is wrong for the dog, against the law, or some other issue, like doing something with a dog that is too young or doesn't have the ability, then they need to hear it.
> 
> I never tested a dog beyond its ability to handle reasonable stress; to do so is just standing there on an ego trip and singing about, "Oh the big me!!!" The role of the TD/helper or decoy is an easy one to understand. Cut away all things about them and here it is...they should work the dog on a level and in a safe manner, doing so to produce an animal that enjoys the training venue that you the owner have put it in.
> 
> Not everything I do in training is centered around Howard Gaines III! Yeah I know hard to think it!!! The big goal of the training decoy or TD should be one as *the tool* which helps your dog grow. If the TD/decoy/helper is just standing around blowing off about this title and that award...screw that! In the biggest picture, who cares? I don't!! Glad you did well in that area and during that time, but remember, it's MY DOG out there and I want the best for it!!! If I mess it up then it's on ME. \\/


OMG Howard, I'm in love \\/ Can we clone you? 

Very nice, down to earth post and I'm glad to know that we have people out there helping train dogs who think like you do:smile: More please ;-)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: The whip is a tool used to help build and bring out drives.

This is not pointed at Howard at all, this is my problem with the GSD, and the whip as a TOOL as a whole.

If you have to use a whip to bring out a drive, then the dogs thresholds are too high.

If I take away the stupid tool that is causing people to not see that these dogs have too high of thresholds, you will see a bunch of breeders rethinking what they are breeding. Oh sure, lofty goals, but really, how far would way too many of these dogs gone if the whip was not used ????

One of the reasons I have a Mal is that they do not have thresholds that need a whip to bring out.

Besides, who the **** wants to work that hard ????


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## Howard Gaines III

*Candy so sorry, no copies allowed. The first and last copy is still available for a price!* :twisted: 

Careful what you wish for...8-[ I have seen good malinois and some not so good. The fact that they are a herding breed is something that I like. I could be off base here but I think retrieving and herding breeds are more natural to please than any of the other handler/K9 breeds. 

They are required to work closer and in a oneness that some others don't. It isn't natural for a dog to "give up what it has captured" through thick and thin...and one that wants to bring or collect is acting in that onesness state. Less training to have that harmony. I have a Border Collie that would go through walls to please me; everything including the focus is in that black and white package.


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## Jerry Lyda

I still think the whip is only a tool as the decoy acting in prey to bring out the drive in a dog.


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## Mike Scheiber

Jerry Lyda said:


> I still think the whip is only a tool as the decoy acting in prey to bring out the drive in a dog.


Not sure if the word whip is mentioned on here if people think the fur is flying or what but yes there many ways the and reactions the whip can bring out all depends if you know to use it and what for. 
I think the problem people have with it is they have seen it misused over used or don't know how to use it or what for. Whip is good!!!!Collar is good!!! Table is good!!! all in the proper hands.


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## Khoi Pham

The whip can be use for many training scenario, when working the dog and teaching them switching drive from defense to prey and back and forth, or teaching them to bark, when facing the dog square I will crack the whip and that will put them in defense and usually that will make them bark, they bark, I move side to side to trigger their prey drive, square on them again and crack the whip that will but them back in defense, this is how I train young dog to switch drives, when they are older, I use the whip to agitate and whip their front legs or shoulder to pisssed them off to bring out aggression before giving them a bite, if you have not ever been hit by the end of the whip before, this hurt so becareful on the dog that is not ready or you might run him, be sure that his drive is high so he can take it heh heh, I also use the whip for quick light hit when doing bark and hold if the dog got distract and look away from me.


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## Howard Gaines III

Khoi Pham said:


> The whip can be use for many training scenario, when working the dog and teaching them switching drive from defense to prey and back and forth, or teaching them to bark, when facing the dog square I will crack the whip and that will put them in defense and usually that will make them bark, they bark, I move side to side to trigger their prey drive, square on them again and crack the whip that will but them back in defense, this is how I train young dog to switch drives, when they are older, I use the whip to agitate and whip their front legs or shoulder to pisssed them off to bring out aggression before giving them a bite, if you have not ever been hit by the end of the whip before, this hurt so becareful on the dog that is not ready or you might run him, be sure that his drive is high so he can take it heh heh, I also use the whip for quick light hit when doing bark and hold if the dog got distract and look away from me.


*The Proof is in the Decoy*​Jerry I can't say that it isn't a good tool, shoot, I use it all the time. And Khoi you are already saying something else, *decoy movement* followed by the whip. Now, take the whip out and it's all going back to *decoy motion and emotion*! I know of one guy who was so out of shape that he would need to stop after working one dog. Understand he NEVER worked that hard to even earn a break.

Khoi you say you move then crack the whip. This is my point on over use. The decoy should move in prey and defense, reading the dog and going in and out of these drives. It should be the movement that triggers the dog' s true reaction and not the whip. By using your legs, arms, eyes, voice, and head the decoy has so many tools to use. If cracking the whip is the only thing to make a dog work, then it's junk. 

From a PPD training position, will the bad guy have a whip? Not! If you can work a dog with you mind and body, the whip may only be window dressing in the training scenario. *Here is my challenge...club folks,* work each dog you have in the prey and defensive drives, don't worry about fight drive for now. Using the body and your voice in these modes, tell me how much better the whip would have made the session. My bet is this, it didn't make any noticeable difference if the dogs aren't junk.

Decoys who are good actors should also be good at bringing out the dog's natural abilities. I don't care if it's with the sleeve or suit; motion and emotion make all the difference. Will you end up busting your butt to make this happen? You might. But the training challenge is out there and reply in open or PM me if this is whack/crazy/BS/off the wall/can't be done! 

I used one of our decoy trainees to retest a puppy from last week. With the wind and newness it was important to review the animal before passing an opinion on it this week. John worked the animal on a level that the dog enjoyed and it was showing in how the puppy became vocal and the physical signs (ears, tail, and eyes) and played into the comfort and retest mode. At no point was a whip used to pull out K-9 data.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
I still think the whip is only a tool as the decoy acting in prey to bring out the drive in a dog.

I am not sure why people think a dog needs to be in defense when working, but even still, if you have to use a whip........ I have had dogs that did not look at the whip except in prey. The rapid movement help break down the threshold, that again was too high.

So to get this defensive response the dog has to be hit with the whip. If the dog cannot go into defense just from the "threat" (still don't see a need for defense) This again is a dog with a threshold for defense that to me is OK. He does not see you as a threat. Dogs that break down from this type of work see the helper as a threat every time. The rest do not see it that way all the time, and learn to show their scary face. Otherwise they would break down in training as well.

Quote: The whip can be use for many training scenario, when working the dog and teaching them switching drive from defense to prey and back and forth,

Again, this is where I gave up with Sch. You are teaching the dog when to make the scary face, and when not to. You are not teaching a dog wo switch drives, as they do that quite well on their own.

I have talked about this ad nauseum until I am blue in the face. LOL For me, a dog that requires this much work is just going to create this much work and more. How many times have we seen "pet" dogs in litters because of this ??? These pet dogs have all the drives needed, but with thresholds that are off the scale.

Quote: Careful what you wish for... I have seen good malinois and some not so good.

OK, so what ?? Give me ten Mal pups, and ten Bouvier pups, and I am likely to find NO Bouvier pups that work out of that ten, and if I do, it is highly likely that they at best will be low level dogs, not able to achieve even a Sch 3. I will take my chances with the 5 or 6 I might find in the Mals.

That is why I do not like a dog with high thresholds, and why it is silly to waste time with a dog that needs the whip to do the job. You just create more of the same crap.


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## Howard Gaines III

Khoi Pham said:


> ... if you have not ever been hit by the end of the whip before, this hurt so becareful on the dog that is not ready or you might run him, be sure that his drive is high so he can take it heh heh,* I also use the whip for quick light hit when doing bark and hold if the dog got distract and look away from me.[/*quote]
> After re-reading here's another over use! The dog is doing a B & H and looks away...*ESCAPE* from the blind! *Motion...* Now the prey has just gotten away and the "look away" cost the dog. No whip was needed to reinforce the behavior. \\/ [-X


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Again, you are describing training a dog to show proper responses, not the dog having them. You are working to make a dog something he would not be to begin with.

To hit a dog in the bark and hold and not get bitten tells quite a lot about the dog you are working. A dog with proper drives and thresholds should bite if the helper threatens or hits him.


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## Howard Gaines III

Quote: 
OK, so what ?? Give me ten Mal pups, and ten Bouvier pups, and I am likely to find NO Bouvier pups that work out of that ten, and if I do, it is highly likely that they at best will be low level dogs, not able to achieve even a Sch 3. I will take my chances with the 5 or 6 I might find in the Mals.[/quote]

Might hold true if you had crap breedings. And even more so for any show lines breeding. Go back into the working stuff and that can't wash! The problem, if there is one, the Malinois is running away with everything. Size, speed, and agility make it the top choice for all venues. In the '80's there were still a few Bouviers doing KNPV. Try and buy one today with a title and it will almost not happen. When was the last time you even saw one doing Ring? Twenty years ago they were out there but not as popular as the other breeds, same with the GSN.

The ONLY reason the Mal is doing what it is to date...popularity. At some point the kennel breeders will have it in the same boat as the German Shepherd...only a matter of time. Look what the AKC has pushed and done with the Border Collie and you'll see my point. Nothing wrong with some Mals.


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## jay lyda

Jeff is correct.

Most people who have seen the whip used or use the whip do so to bring out defense in a dog. This is not what I use one for. I use a whip in prey mode to fire a young dog up. It is used with prey movement to get a conditioned response the same as a decoys movement getting a conditioned response. As the dog develops the whip disappears for it is no longer needed to fire a dog up. At this level the stimulation is just seeing the decoy. The whip is simply a tool that can be overused and wrongly used. Simple as that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Look at the difference in your thought process for working a dog, and you will see why. They threw away dogs that needed whips to get to go into drive. They do not look for the scary face. I am not sure how many times I will be able to type that defense is not necessary, or good in bitework.

The funny thing is just how easy it is to work a Mal compared to all these other dog breeds destroyed by show, and Sch. All the artificial crap that Sch and show people like to see ends up in a dog that will only work when a decoy goes through coniptions like and idiot in training.

I understand that people have a dog, and that you work the dog in front of you.....yes, this is true, but if I can get people to understand that a dog that has to see all this to work is kinda goofy, maybe they start sending dogs back, and breeders get a reality check.

And you wonder why I don't want to see the Mal in Sch. LOL

Think how nice it would be to have a Bouvier that did not need all that work to get the dog into drive. LOL Probably why they are not working anymore. Just get a dog that can do the work without all the artificial crap.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm going to go out on a limb here because I've been trying to find it in the older threads and haven't been able to. Jeff raises the question of whether you really NEED defense to train a sport dog and Howard is stating that the props [whips and sticks] are over used and its more about decoy motion and emotion which coming from the world of stock work, I can understand. So is defense necessary and if so, what ages or stage in development and to what degree? 


Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

In Sch, you need the scary face. I call it threat display, or "hey I am not going to bite you, but go away...look at my mean face !!! I am scary !!! GO AWAY" : )


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## jay lyda

It really goes back to what kind of dog you have to begin with. Is he/she more prey motivated or does the dog go into defense very quickly?

With that being said, IMO you do not NEED defense to train a sport dog, ppd, or a psd. If the dogs nerves are good and is highly prey motivated then you can train this dog through prey and still get all the results you are looking for. Trained correctly the dog will be able to handle about anything you can throw at it and enjoy doing it and still not switch into its natural defensive mode. Too much defense training just says to me that you have a fence dog, and more than likely an unstable one at that. Im not trying to step on anyones toes here that prefer training in defense Im just stating that I do not. 

The big question here is: If you have a dog with absolutley NO prey drive but has no problem going into defense how far do you think you can get the dog? Of course it depends on if its defense because he is just a billy bad ass or defense because it is just REALLY has bad nerves and is fearfull.


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## Geoff Empey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here because I've been trying to find it in the older threads and haven't been able to. Jeff raises the question of whether you really NEED defense to train a sport dog and Howard is stating that the props [whips and sticks] are over used and its more about decoy motion and emotion which coming from the world of stock work, I can understand. So is defense necessary and if so, what ages or stage in development and to what degree?


The way I see it. With a Sport dog in Ringsports SchH etc you can easily train a suitable dog all the way to the top levels of the sport in 'prey' no defense required. 


As for when Defense is required I really don't think it is needed in sport. Some experience people will put a more experienced dog (not green) in 'defense' to test the dogs thresholds or whatever. But that is done by someone who can really read a dog and knows what they are doing. Is it needed in sport or back to your question "when"? I'm not totally sure even at that point.


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## Jerry Lyda

An amount of defense is required in bite work training, small or large amounts, it is needed.


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## Khoi Pham

Howard Gaines III said:


> Khoi Pham said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... if you have not ever been hit by the end of the whip before, this hurt so becareful on the dog that is not ready or you might run him, be sure that his drive is high so he can take it heh heh,* I also use the whip for quick light hit when doing bark and hold if the dog got distract and look away from me.[/*quote]
> After re-reading here's another over use! The dog is doing a B & H and looks away...*ESCAPE* from the blind! *Motion...* Now the prey has just gotten away and the "look away" cost the dog. No whip was needed to reinforce the behavior. \\/ [-X
> 
> 
> 
> I just described what I do with the whip, and the whip is not my only tool or my only 1 solution, or my only way to train and sometime I don't even use my whip at all so it is not over use, sound like you re-reading just to find what is wrong and bad about the use of the whip, if the whip is not in your arsenal that is fine, I use all the tools available when I need them, and btw none of the dogs in my club needed the whip or depended on it to turn on, it is a great tool if you know how to use it, if you don't, don't put it down and think that people that use it have shit dogs.
Click to expand...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
An amount of defense is required in bite work training, small or large amounts, it is needed.

Like you could take it away ???? Dogs go into defense or don't, depending on what they feel. They will do it regardless of whether you train for it or not.


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## jay lyda

Jerry Lyda said:


> An amount of defense is required in bite work training, small or large amounts, it is needed.


Depending on the dog. Some dogs do not need it. Even if the decoy is in a defensive posture and is coming in strong, a dog who has been conditioned to such things will not switch into defense but will still be plenty enough motivated to and will bite. Because this is every thing that THIS dog has been shown through its training in prey. Im not sure if this is coming across in words as it is in my head. Again it depends on the dog, some dogs kick into defense quicker some do not. Some stay in prey and work very well so why would you want to put defense on them purposely when they are working through everything like described above in prey.


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## Khoi Pham

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Again, you are describing training a dog to show proper responses, not the dog having them. You are working to make a dog something he would not be to begin with.
> 
> To hit a dog in the bark and hold and not get bitten tells quite a lot about the dog you are working. A dog with proper drives and thresholds should bite if the helper threatens or hits him.


This is where decoy skills comes in, you have to do it so quick with the wrist only so that he does not see any body movement, and he only felt the end of the line of the whip hit him but he knows that it came from the decoy, in the begining, when the dog mental is not strong yet, he will break his bark and hold and will bite if he felt pain coming from the decoy, or a weak dog will just bite to release the stress, these type of weak dog, they are what they are, you can only improve a little bit, but strong dog when knowing that he must doing bark and hold and at the same time taking pressure from the decoy from either his presence or his stare or the whip, and have enough nerve not to brake his B&H and bite, the more training the stronger the dog will get stronger, so this is where me and you are differ, you think a strong dog should bite, I think a strong dog should have enough nerve to obey his handler command and only bite when there is real threat, to me a weak nerve dog is the one that will bite at the first sign of thread even though if they don't see it, anything could be a threat and is good enough of an excuse for the dog to bite to release the pressure, you think I train dog to show proper response, that is true, but what you don't realize is that if the dog don't already have the nerve and drive to start with, he can't be trained to the level to show the right response, they just can't handle the pressure and will break the bark and hold and will bite, maybe that is why they don't have bark and hold in Mondio, Hahhah just kidding man, I like Mondio I will do it one day when I bored. (-:


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## Geoff Empey

Jerry Lyda said:


> An amount of defense is required in bite work training, small or large amounts, it is needed.


Jerry can you give some concrete examples of when you'd want to put a dog into defense in bite work training? Khoi has given a few examples of when he'd use the whip. Though he may or may not be putting that particular dog into defense if I understand correctly. 

You guys have a hell of a lot more experience than I, so I just want to understand where you are coming from stating what you just said. 

I've been to some training sessions or seminars where there has been lot's of pressure put on dogs to the point where I have to turn my head and not look. I understand why those things happened though I wouldn't want to do it to my own dog without a freakin' good reason. 

So if a TD or Seminar instructor wants to use a particular tool on my dog in the future I want to be able to evaluate what they say and be able to make a educated decision. My bitch is at the point now where she is getting into a lot more intense routines training FR2 stuff so we may meet TDs or other instructors that may want to put pressure on my dog that I may not feel comfortable with.


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## Khoi Pham

" Khoi has given a few examples of when he'd use the whip. Though he may or may not be putting that particular dog into defense if I understand correctly. "

When you stop moving and face a young dog squarely and crack the whip, you are putting him in defense. Period.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: This is where decoy skills comes in, you have to do it so quick with the wrist only so that he does not see any body movement, and he only felt the end of the line of the whip hit him but he knows that it came from the decoy, in the begining, when the dog mental is not strong yet, he will break his bark and hold and will bite if he felt pain coming from the decoy, or a weak dog will just bite to release the stress, these type of weak dog, they are what they are, you can only improve a little bit.

So here is where we differ. To me, and the dog that I want, you hit my dog, and he will bite you. This is why the helper is still in the blind. This is a dog with lower thresholds (generally speaking) He is not gonna put up with the helper striking and causing him pain. 

The dog with higher thresholds just doesn't care. He will put up with the helper correcting him. He also needs more stimulation to keep his interest.

Koi, I think you will find that the dog you like for Sch, is gonna fail you in Mondio.

Quote: I think a strong dog should have enough nerve to obey his handler command and only bite when there is real threat, to me a weak nerve dog is the one that will bite at the first sign of thread even though if they don't see it, anything could be a threat and is good enough of an excuse for the dog to bite to release the pressure.

So just to tease you a little bit, you think you are so ninja-like that you can crack a dog with the whip and they have no idea where it came from ???? LOL Not likely.

Kidding aside, where is the real threat ??? If a dog has a lower threshold and bites more readily at what YOU do not consider a threat, how is that a weaker dog ??? 

Why is the dog that waits a stronger dog??? All it is is higher thresholds. Higher thresholds means that the dog will put up with more crap before biting.


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## Khoi Pham

For sure I will do Mondio with my Sch dog one day when he retired from PSA and I expect you to get back on this forum said that you are all wrong about Sch dog, that they will fail when doing Mondio. It is all about the dog and the training, not because this dog is good at one sport and can't do another because that sport is bad.
When the dog is right in front and looking at you, the sleeve block his vision to anything below, the whip is pointing to the ground, and you use your wrist and whip, the dog sees no movement at all from your body but he felt the whip and know that it came from the decoy, and no I'm no ninja, just using it the right way.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I guess again there is a terms issue. I would see cracking the whip as a threat. Yet, actually hitting the dog just took it out of threat land. Again in the land of stock, we havethe issue of obedience for the sake of obedience. Handler tells the dog to hold---its kinda bark and hold set up except that they don't usually bark. They are holding pressure though. Stock decides that enough, go on the offensive and decides to bash dog's head in. SOME dogs are trained to the point that they will take the hit and not respond until told to do so. This is Khoi's dog. Other's will maintain that hold and if the stock decide to take a hit, they will respond with a bite. [Mine and Jeff's dog]. The problem with the obedience position is that it can get dog killed or seriously injured. 

Great discussion and I have learned tons from reading the various perspectives.

Terrasita


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## Geoff Empey

Khoi Pham said:


> When you stop moving and face a young dog squarely and crack the whip, you are putting him in defense. Period.


Ok, So in Jeff's opinion you do this, a good dog moves into the decoy or if it is crap runs back to it's handler? Or with an experienced decoys case you can switch the dog's drives at a whim? 

We have a Giant Schnauzer in our club that easily taps into this. Though 90% of our Malinois will bite the decoy if light draft blows in the room. :-k They don't care about being in defense they are extremely prey motivated. What makes the Giant Schnauzer work up and is very easy to see the different drives at work there, but not so easy to see in a more prey driven dog and not required in the same amount for the same end result IMO.


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## Khoi Pham

Geoff Empey said:


> Ok, So in Jeff's opinion you do this, a good dog moves into the decoy or if it is crap runs back to it's handler? Or with an experienced decoys case you can switch the dog's drives at a whim?
> 
> We have a Giant Schnauzer in our club that easily taps into this. Though 90% of our Malinois will bite the decoy if light draft blows in the room. :-k They don't care about being in defense they are extremely prey motivated. What makes the Giant Schnauzer work up and is very easy to see the different drives at work there, but not so easy to see in a more prey driven dog and not required in the same amount for the same end result IMO.


Defense has two form, active defense and passive defense, active defense is the dog move toward the threat to fight it and chase it away to satisfy his defense drive, passive defense is the dog moves away from the threat to satisfy his drive, (flight or fight), oviously you want the active defense type, for me, training defense start when the pup is young, from biting the rag on the line, as the dog bite the rag and you reel in the line and get closer to the dog, that puts the dog in defense there, so subtle but you are putting defense on the pup, most people don't realize that, as you move away still holding the line and running back and forth, you put the pup back in prey, and so as they grow older, when you stop moving and face square to the dog, they should have no problem , if with all the foundation training as pup and at older age the dog ran back to the handler when the decoy square on him then yeah the dog doesn't have what it takes, decoy and quickly goes sideway and run again to put him back in prey the second the dog show sign of flight but this type of dog would not go far.


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## Jerry Lyda

Geoff, what Khoi said. I never put defense on a dog like what a lot on here think defense is. If you square up to a dog It's defense. Now if the dog is spinning and don't keep focus on the decoy then there's a pop of the whip to get his attention back. (Escaping from the dog out the back of the blind is the first thing to do but if that isn't working then you go a step futher.) I did not say pop the dog with the whip, I said pop the whip. If that is not working then a pop around his feet not on his feet. Any movement towards the dog is putting the dog in defense. If you look him in the eyes that is defense. There is so much a decoy can do to put a dog in defense however suttle, it's still defense.


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## Geoff Empey

Gotcya! Thanks for the tutorial gents! Makes sense from that point of view. I always thought that putting a dog in defense involved a lot more 'ugly' like table work and such. So that is what was popping into my head with the word 'defense' especially since we are talking about using a whip.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:
When the dog is right in front and looking at you, the sleeve block his vision to anything below, the whip is pointing to the ground, and you use your wrist and whip, the dog sees no movement at all from your body but he felt the whip and know that it came from the decoy, and no I'm no ninja, just using it the right way.

So why is the dog needing the whip ???

Quote: When you stop moving and face a young dog squarely and crack the whip, you are putting him in defense. Period.

Uhhhhh, no not really. Depends on the dog again. I have owned enough dogs that this statement is not true. Again, if the dogs threshold for defense is high, and prey low, you can square up all day and the dog will not go into defense just because you think it should. 

Quote: Defense has two form, active defense and passive defense, active defense is the dog move toward the threat to fight it and chase it away to satisfy his defense drive, passive defense is the dog moves away from the threat to satisfy his drive, (flight or fight),

THis is where we differ as well. Different terminology I guess. : )


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## Khoi Pham

"When the dog is right in front and looking at you, the sleeve block his vision to anything below, the whip is pointing to the ground, and you use your wrist and whip, the dog sees no movement at all from your body but he felt the whip and know that it came from the decoy, and no I'm no ninja, just using it the right way.

So why is the dog needing the whip ???"

He could be looking at you and then turn his head to look at his handler or another dog or whatever distracted him, using the whip to get his attention back to you, if the dog defense threshold is high, square up on him still put him in defense, he just won't show it because it will take alot more pressure before he will react to the threat, just because the dog doesn't react, doesn't mean that he is not in defense already.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: he just won't show it because it will take alot more pressure before he will react to the threat, just because the dog doesn't react, doesn't mean that he is not in defense already.

This would explain why I think most of what you write is so off. So the dog is IN defense, but secretly hiding it from you, perhaps to spring it on you when you are unsuspecting??? LOL

And here, just for fun, we twist the whole thing up with this:

He could be looking at you and then turn his head to look at his handler or another dog or whatever distracted him,

But secretly, he is in defense, just not showing it.

What I see with this scenario is the dog has been taught to fake a mean face and cannot keep up the bullshit when distracted. IF the dog was in defense, which I am not so sure you know if they are or not, he would not be distracted. It is a fear based response, and IF you have them in it, then you are the main attraction. Other wise the dog is just faking it as you have taught him.

HA HA I win. LOL


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## Matthew Grubb

I’ll muddy the waters a little bit…… IMO defense isn’t a drive. It’s a culmination of behaviors and responses to an uncomfortable situation….fight… flight. If it was truly a drive, it would be the one drive we actively try to extinguish through training if we are lucky enough to have a dog that is capable and confident enough to be operating in fight.

Jerry pointed out a number of things that put “defense” on a dog. (I’m totally with you on this Jerry) They make the dog uncomfortable… squaring off.. eye contact. We teach the dog to overcome these things. We catch a young dog and slowly work him “inside” he starts to show “defense” (uncomfortably) by growling or a weak grip… so we shift back into prey….then we try a little bit more..... and a little more…..and a little more.

We teach the dog over time that it can conquer any threat… that it will win after it gets picked up… it will win when it’s thrown into a desk or a chair… it will win when it’s hit, struck, kicked. Not every dog will ever get here.

Jay described a dog that is so confident that it works in a prey like state regardless of how much “defense” is put on it. IMO that dog has fight…. That dog is so confident that it knows that I (the dog) bring the fight… I will make it fight with me…I will vanquish it regardless of what happens. Most people have never seen this. 

IMO the whip is a prey item…. 

Also…. Why are people ever letting the decoy correct their dog??? It teaches the dog that the decoy is to be feared and respected…. I want my dog to own the decoy every time he takes the fight to the decoy and know that I’m making any and all corrections.

-Rant Over- :razz:


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## Khoi Pham

"HA HA I win. LOL"

I thought this was a disscusion forum about training dogs not an argument of who wins in argument contest, I have been sticking all to dog training issues, you on the other hand have been calling me ninja and poking and making fun of me and other with LOL crap, here is what I'm LOL at when I saw your dog at a mondio trial start to heel with the decoy instead of staying with you for the handler defense, what a joke man and what a trainer you are, all holes in traininng will show on the field and it sure did, don't critique other trainings until you can train one yourself, maybe you should use the whip more often heh Jeff, mr. know it all, you would be better off if you get off the mental of Mondio training is god and the rest is shit. You should be LOL at your dog performance first before you LOL at others.


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## Khoi Pham

"Also…. Why are people ever letting the decoy correct their dog??? It teaches the dog that the decoy is to be feared and respected…. I want my dog to own the decoy every time he takes the fight to the decoy and know that I’m making any and all corrections."

Heh heh Matthew ask Jeff how they train guard/transport in Mondio, all decoy corrections there, and no I don't correct the dog during decoy work, except when doing Mondio, but for other sport I bring their attention back to me.


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## Howard Gaines III

Open up Pandora's Box and let the sh*t fly! This has been one stimulating conversation on a training point that I KNEW would open up. The nice thing about this, those who don't know about drives and training can get a feel for what decoys/helpers are trying to bring out in the dog. 

Yep the whip is a tool. But I go back to point of using the body first and the whip second to move the dog into and out of drives or behaviors. Khoi you mentioned using the whip on a young dog. How young and how is it done? We take puppies and stroke them with the whip, wiping their sides; it isn't used to sting their legs if the animal doesn't pay attention.

In a defensive mode, I use the loud crack and frontal body position to show "size and fight" towards the dog. I also hiss and stomp the dirt. The strong dog will lean into the decoy and not look away. The dog that can't handle much pressure may look away or show other body signals. The problem I'll have with a decoy who whips my dog, what if you whip him w/o control and cut his eye beyond use? Was that technique worth using? Exit the blind and create some distance, then move back in for a B & H. It still goes to the motion topic...new thread!


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## Kristen Cabe

Matthew Grubb said:


> Jay described a dog that is so confident that it works in a prey like state regardless of how much “defense” is put on it. IMO that dog has fight…. That dog is so confident that it knows that I (the dog) bring the fight


Jak was completely prey-oriented. That dog's defense threshold was so high it was nearly non existent. I don't recall ever seeing him work in defense, but I honestly do not believe he fits the above description. 

I will freely admit that he was totally focused on the sleeve, and that was due to poor imprinting as a puppy. This could be the reason he doesn't fit the mold as you described above, Matthew. He didn't care at all what the helper did to him; he just stared and barked at the sleeve, even if it was on the ground 30ft away while the helper wailed on him with the stick/whip/whatever. His bark never changed - it was always that same loud, monotone bark - not a high pitched whiny bark and not a low pitched growly one. Just a trained behavior, I guess. 'I bark, I get the sleeve,' kind of thing.

Perhaps with proper imprinting he might have been different, but he was not a super confident, liked to bring the fight kind of dog. He liked to play the game, but he was not a hard dog at all.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I thought this was a disscusion forum about training dogs not an argument of who wins in argument contest, I have been sticking all to dog training issues, you on the other hand have been calling me ninja and poking and making fun of me and other with LOL crap

I think it is because whoever taught you dog training was clueless. I know you are very sensitive, and thoughtful, and the perfect guy to sell PPD crap to. Sorry if it ruined your day so bad to get called completely out on your training methods and philosophy, I just thought maybe you might get it right if I explained it to you enough times. LOL

Quote: Heh heh Matthew ask Jeff how they train guard/transport in Mondio, all decoy corrections there. 

Yes, many people train it that way, but I really doubt they are using a whip, and getting a dog to show his teeth, which is what we are talking about.

Your best response to my showing you that you are not doing the things that you THINK you are doing is to make fun of my dog being way too much at a trial??? : ) Nice try. We all know that PSA handed your dog his ass. How many times did he chase the forearm ??? Did he pop off the bite a few times ?? Is that what is bugging you ??? That alone should be proof enough that the silly threat display that Sch wants, and uses a whip for is foolish.

Re-read what I have taught you about the whip, then go out and look at what you think you are doing from a correct view. I think that you will see that you are so wrong.

Quote: and no I don't correct the dog during decoy work

Interesting, did you train your dog at all ??? Or did someone else just tell you how to do it.

I can do this all day. Give this spanking a couple of days to sink in, and then read it again, and go look at what people are doing with the whip.

If you like, video a training session and I can point out where the mistakes are made with the whip. (answer anyone ?? )


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Matthew, drives are not drives. LOL I still hear people talking about working a dog in ALL PREY. Like the dog had nothing to do with it. The dog has everything to do with it. Take Kristens experience with her dog. 

Why THE **** would her dog be confident when some dipshit is trying to get past a threshold that was too high ??? The dog wants the sleeve and has to endure X amount of pain to get to it. How long before extinguishment begins ??? I saw that dog at two years still on a backtie and still working a B&H.

I apologize Kristen, apathy is something I am attempting to get rid of.

It is funny how people are avoiding the topic of thresholds. This is helper decoy 101, yet all these amazing trainers are unable to discuss them at a really really basic level.

It all goes back to this; If your dog needs the whip to do the work, get a new dog.

Matthew, you may be on the right track, if you are, publish your findings, and you have yourself a nice PHd thesis. I have tried to come up with a better way of describing this shit, but man does it get murky down there. : )


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## Keith Jenkins

I work most weekends with one of the best training helpers in the country for schutzhund and LE for that matter . I'll pass along that he must not know what he's doing when he uses a whip or he should be telling people why bother as this dog must not have what it takes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Good for you.


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## Kristen Cabe

Jeff, not a problem. I was just as frustrated in the end; it just took me longer to get to that point because I was a clueless newbie when I got Jak. Hell, I'm still clueless for the most part! :lol:


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## Howard Gaines III

Now the truth comes out...*Whip Master!* "I can do this all day. Give this spanking a couple of days to sink in, and then read it again, and go look at what people are doing with the whip."
True, very true.


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## Khoi Pham

"Yep the whip is a tool. But I go back to point of using the body first and the whip second to move the dog into and out of drives or behaviors. Khoi you mentioned using the whip on a young dog. How young and how is it done? We take puppies and stroke them with the whip, wiping their sides; it isn't used to sting their legs if the animal doesn't pay attention."

If the pup has solid nerve of steel, from 8 weeks old we start using whip, clatter stick, bottles curtain..., stroke them on the side, petting them with it to get them use to it, and ofcourse I don't whip them with the whip, for pup that don't have as good nerve of steel, I build up their prey drive to bite much before I introduced distractions so that their drive to bite can overcome some of the fear and will be desensitize of the distractions.


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## Keith Jenkins

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Good for you.


Come on...no witty comeback...no endless diatribe about whomever I'm talking about must be some clueless twitt scam artist?


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## Matthew Grubb

Jeff…. I think thresholds are an important topic. I think the goal of any good training program are to raise those thresholds as far as you can. If you can’t raise them past an acceptable level then yes, you have to take a good honest look at the dog.

As far as decoy 101 goes…. I think too many people in all kinds of venues (sport, police, protection, etc.) place too much emphasis on having other people work their dog and never get a true understanding of what’s being seen during the training itself. You will never learn what goes into raising thresholds and building confidence unless you spend a lot of time working different dogs and learning to read the dogs strengths and weaknesses. You can attend a million “top name” seminars and you still won’t get it.


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## Howard Gaines III

Matthew you aren't *monkeying* around with that statement, thank you. Time and time on task help...


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## Matthew Grubb

Howard Gaines III said:


> Matthew you aren't *monkeying* around with that statement, thank you. Time and time on task help...


There are no monkey smilies!! :razz:


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## 2170

I use a whip often, I will put my do in a heeling pattern and crack the whip while having him on my side. He doesnt respond to the whip nor gun shots. Get him to understand the noise and get him to understand the situation and youll have a clear headed dog....


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## Maren Bell Jones

Eric FAvetta said:


> I use a whip often, I will put my do in a heeling pattern and crack the whip while having him on my side. He doesnt respond to the whip nor gun shots. Get him to understand the noise and get him to understand the situation and youll have a *clear headed dog*....


Or just a well conditioned one... *shrug*

Oooh ooh, can we have a "what is a clear headed dog?" thread? [-o< That seems to be the big buzzword nowadays that their dog is "clear headed."


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Come on...no witty comeback...no endless diatribe about whomever I'm talking about must be some clueless twitt scam artist?

So, did you not read what I wrote ? Are you just skimming ??? Not sure I mentioned scam artist, but since you do the goofball sport, why don't you tell me about how the whip is so truely necessary......or should we just have whoever it is you are talking about answer for you ???

Heck, stick him on here, let him answer for himself, that way I don't get the "minion" version of what so and so has said. Let him speak for himself. If you want to try, I will give you the spank down as well.

Silly Schutzhunder, your sport is for kids.


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## Keith Jenkins

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Come on...no witty comeback...no endless diatribe about whomever I'm talking about must be some clueless twitt scam artist?
> 
> So, did you not read what I wrote ? Are you just skimming ??? Not sure I mentioned scam artist, but since you do the goofball sport, why don't you tell me about how the whip is so truly necessary......or should we just have whoever it is you are talking about answer for you ???
> 
> Heck, stick him on here, let him answer for himself, that way I don't get the "minion" version of what so and so has said. Let him speak for himself. If you want to try, I will give you the spank down as well.
> 
> Silly Schutzhunder, your sport is for kids.


Person I train with is not a board poster but if you feel real strong about contacting him he can be reached at [email protected]. Make sure to mention that schutzhund is a sport for kids. 

I don't believe myself or anyone for that matter ever said the whip was truly necessary, only that is one of many tools used and can be used effectively if needed anything from a wake-up call to a pain stimuli. Your sole contention is that if dog's threshold level is such that a whip is necessary to elicit a response that you should look to get another dog and because people disagree you then find it necessary to slam their chosen sport.


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## Mike Scheiber

Keith Jenkins said:


> Person I train with is not a board poster but if you feel real strong about contacting him he can be reached at [email protected]. Make sure to mention that schutzhund is a sport for kids.
> 
> I don't believe myself or anyone for that matter ever said the whip was truly necessary, only that is one of many tools used and can be used effectively if needed anything from a wake-up call to a pain stimuli. Your sole contention is that if dog's threshold level is such that a whip is necessary to elicit a response that you should look to get another dog and because people disagree you then find it necessary to slam their chosen sport.


I am no fan of Armin's and want to be CLEAR I'm not craling up his ass but he may be one of the top 5 training helpers I know I would truly enjoy, hell I'd pay to listing and watch this episode of Working Dog Forum


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Your sole contention is that if dog's threshold level is such that a whip is necessary to elicit a response that you should look to get another dog and because people disagree you then find it necessary to slam their chosen sport.

I slam your sport because it is a breed test, and you try and say that it is a sport. The dogs you choose in your chosen sport have thresholds that suck, and when we turn on the light and tell you that your head is in your ass, you cannot figure it out.

You cannot even put up a good arguement after 5 years in the sport, because you are a follower. You have to understand that I look at you as a goofball that never figures anything out on their own, you just wait untill someone tells you what to say. 

You are clueless about thresholds, that is blatantly obvious. And to make matters worse, you cannot figure out why it would matter.

I think it is cute you are trying to hide behind Winkler. Hell go get Reiser. I think that you will find that they think you are a automaton too.


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## Keith Jenkins

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Your sole contention is that if dog's threshold level is such that a whip is necessary to elicit a response that you should look to get another dog and because people disagree you then find it necessary to slam their chosen sport.
> 
> I slam your sport because it is a breed test, and you try and say that it is a sport. The dogs you choose in your chosen sport have thresholds that suck, and when we turn on the light and tell you that your head is in your ass, you cannot figure it out.
> 
> You cannot even put up a good argument after 5 years in the sport, because you are a follower. You have to understand that I look at you as a goofball that never figures anything out on their own, you just wait untill someone tells you what to say.
> 
> You are clueless about thresholds, that is blatantly obvious. And to make matters worse, you cannot figure out why it would matter.
> 
> I think it is cute you are trying to hide behind Winkler. Hell go get Reiser. I think that you will find that they think you are a automaton too.


Hiding behind Winkler? Where did you come up with that one? 

Hey you want to consider schutzhund a breed test feel free sparky. I've watched you on every board you're on whine like a school bitch from the stick to tracking. You don't like it fine but the constant thrashing is getting old. Did at some point some schuzthund helper somewhere wail the living shit out of you or do you just suck so bad at trying to train for it this is the defensive response anytime the word is mentioned? 

Your basic argument in reference to thresholds not being correct are exactly that, yours. You look for the easiest route and that's fine but because you're too lazy to work at something with a dog doesn't make it a bad dog or you correct. You said yourself you went to the Mal because they didn't require the work other breeds did. So yeah I do understand about thresholds I'm just not afraid of a bit of extra hard work if needed to mold them appropriately.


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## James Downey

You know they say Schutzhund is not a hobby...it's an obesession. 

I always thought that was just a corny saying. Till I met Jeff Oehlsen. Then I noticed that even people who hate Sch....are totally obsessed with it.:razz: :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: You look for the easiest route and that's fine but because you're too lazy to work at something with a dog doesn't make it a bad dog or you correct.

Uhhhhh, yeah it does. How many pet dogs get produced because people breed dogs with incorrect thresholds ??? 

Quote: So yeah I do understand about thresholds I'm just not afraid of a bit of extra hard work if needed to mold them appropriately.

Would the dogs do the work without the whip ??? Molding ??? Oh GOd, PLEASE tell us about how you are molding a threshold. Do you hit the dog with the whip to help you "mold" a dog ???? (being serious)

Quote: I've watched you on every board you're on whine like a school bitch from the stick to tracking.

So you remember when I punked all of you on longwoods board on tracking, and it's uselessness. I won't have to go over it again. If I remember correctly, you had nothing to say there. Besides, you act like it is some really impressive thing to do a 600 meter track. I had to do 1500 meters, and didn't think that much of it.

As far as the stick, your the one who uses the bitch stick. LOL

Last and serious question, as I am curious. Could you actually get one of your dogs titled if you didn't have a whip ??? THAT is what I really wanted to focus on. I could care less if you kick them in the head, personally.

Maybe a video on whip use. Could you post one of those ???


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## Jeff Oehlsen

And then there was silence.


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## Keith Jenkins

Once again just because you say it's so doesn't make it such it's only your opinion, nothing more. You keep referring to incorrect thresholds and once again what be incorrect to you may be perfectly acceptable or desirable to others. 

You want to argue semantics over the word "mold"? Would it make any difference had I used the word conditioned probably not to you because it wouldn't necessarily support you position. 

That track is part of the requirement and I don't believe a single person that you "punked" as you put it wrote the rules. If you don't like it either do something to get it changed to whatever would make you feel all warm and fuzzy or just don't worry about it. Same with the stick. 

As for the whip my older Rottie has seen the whip about twice in his life and he's never been hit with it so to answer your question, yes my dog would and did title without the whip. Now my Rottie puppy saw and heard the whip in a puppy circle last Sunday but he really didn't pay much attention to it. Guess he needs a clatter stick to be a real dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote : As for the whip my older Rottie has seen the whip about twice in his life and he's never been hit with it so to answer your question, yes my dog would and did title without the whip.

So you make this big fuss on this thread and then you expect me to believe that you used the whip twice in training, but never touched him with it???

I guess all that molding you deemed necessary a few posts back only applied to other dogs?? Or is it that you as a helper needs the crutch of the whip, and whoever is training YOUR dog doesn't need it???

I smell bullshit. You argue with me about how necessary the stupid whip is, but of course you have only used it twice. You are about as much use in this thread as tracking is in a breed test. LOL

I just make noise with a baton. Most people I train with want the dog to see the stick. Given a choice, I would not have it in my hand. Just wanted to point that out, as you seemed to think that I thought that the clatterstick was better somehow.

Maybe that is what you are missing, I don't think that any stick should be used, just get a dog that doesn't need one.


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## Keith Jenkins

I make a big deal because of the cookie-cutter response you gave that if you need a whip get another dog. That's the bullshit you smell, your blanket one size fits all statement. If someone decides to apply a whip and it's productive in training...so what? If it's not used or needed...again so what? 

I don't know of too many dogs that actually seem to gather a lot of pleasure from getting wacked, again it's part of the rules, not whether the dog "needs" it or not. 

Save your insults, they're a waste of bandwidth.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

But you only used the whip twice......................Suuuuuuuurrrrrre you did.


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## Keith Jenkins

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> But you only used the whip twice......................Suuuuuuuurrrrrre you did.


You don't know me and we aren't buddies so don't insinuate I'm lying. 

You want a discussion that's fine but check the BS at the door.


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## Bob Scott

SIIIIIGH! 
This is becomming very non productive, to say the least! 
Lets ALL get back to making it worth reading.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

OK, I just think he is completely full of doo doo after argueing what a phenominal tool the whip is for molding a dog..........he doesn't use one.

You are right, I do not know you, but what would you think if I all of a sudden told you I used the whip after all the posts to the contrary. AND you have a Rott.


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## Bob Scott

I've got my ruler out!!!

Folks, read my subline! 
How can a persons opinion bother you if that persons opinion holds no value to you??????
"A fools words offend only another fool".

Let's stop being foolish!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So what you're REALLY trying to say is...........LOL


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## Randy Allen

Okay guys,
Granted this is from someone that has limited experience with the SchH ring.
The only time I've seen the whip make a noise (no hitting) is when the helper was the prey.
The shaft can be used for various things, running from a serious hand held challenge to stroking the dog on the side during a bite. 

But I'm with, was it Matthew (?). It's primarly purpose is as a prey tool.

Never seem to make a difference one way or the other with my dog. Weak bite, but lights up on the smallest movement.

Randy


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## Michelle Reusser

Ok for the sake of wanting to keep this thread from getting locked, I'm going to open my yap. The whip was used allot I guess on my dog when he was a pup. Person using the whip was used to crazy ass Mals and my dog just doesn't get fired up flippy like a Mal. Anyway, the whip went bye bye for a long time when the old trainer went bye bye. Now when my dog does hear the whip, he flips out, breaks a down, barks in his crate...all the shit he doesn't normally do. We use the whip now for the ultimate distraction and teaching him to not fire up but ignore it. Is this the norm or was the whip missused when he was a pup? Clatter stick and shaker bottle get the same reaction, he sees/hears and associates them all with the decoy/bite. Isn't this normal and now comes the control portion of training? Now is the time he learns he can't react on his own, he must wait for my command correct? Or am I screwed up somewhere?


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## Matthew Grubb

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Isn't this normal and now comes the control portion of training? Now is the time he learns he can't react on his own, he must wait for my command correct? Or am I screwed up somewhere?


Exactly!!! It’s all about control and learning to tolerate those distractions.


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## jay lyda

Bite Obedience.


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## Kristen Cabe

But once again I ask what is the point in teaching the dog to behave that way when he hears the whip/clatter stick/whatever if you're just going to have to turn right around and correct him for it later just to maintain control? Why use it at all?


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## jay lyda

The same with any distraction Kristen. Take the sleeve or suit, when a dog sees it they get excited and fire up, so why teach them to want it so bad when later you are just going to make them turn it loose and to control themselves on command. With anything that you use in bitework, it is equipment. Any equipment that you use is used to help build a dog, at some point you will use this same equipment to get the control that you desire. The dog associates anything that you use with what it is doing, in this case its bitework. When a dog sees or hears any of the tools/ equipment they know that its time to play the "game". In time they are taught in order to play this "game" they MUST obey through distractions (associated equipment) to get their reward, the bite. And in doing this you are getting control of the on off switch. Is this what you where looking for?


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## Kristen Cabe

Good point, Jay. I'll argue, though, that if you're training a biting dog, the sleeve and/or suit is pretty much a necessity (unless you're crazy! :lol: ) For all intensive purposes, you can't train a SchH dog, PPD, or PSD _without _using a sleeve and/or suit. The whip is not quite as vital a piece of equipment. Correct?


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## Howard Gaines III

The whip will always be viewed a quality fashion wear!  
Any tool worth using is a tool worth using well!


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## Daniel Cox

Ok. I have been following this thread since the beginning. Let me give my opinion about the whip.

I like the whip in schutzhund protection and even in the obedience but it has its limitations. It's over used by many a helper. The whip is not for every dog and should not be used on every dog. If someone says no whip then I throw it in the blind and get the stick. I do love the bamboo stick, it is my favorite. You can sure tell a lot about a dog when I start showing him flexible reed stick that makes some really cool noises.

A big mistake I see. As a dog comes on the field the helper will stimulate the dog with the whip, this makes the dog reactive to the whip and now they require the whip to get pumped to go and do protection. This is shit training. The handler should use a command to activate the dog and then the dog will immediately know what is going on. They know the fight has started and we are doing protection. I start this from a young puppy as I start developing the dog. The dog must be active as they come on the field with no whip. If the dog needs the whip to become active then we need to backup and start from the beginning.

Many people do not like the whip because of the the association with gunfire. All I have to say is get over it and train your dog to deal with the distraction. In my club if your dog can not heel beside you while I crack the whip then you need to make more control. The whip is a great way to see how good your control is in the bitework or obedience. You must proof your dog for just about any situation. This a problem with Schutzhund. Schutzhund is very predictable and you can train a dog for the exact situation they will see. You take the dog to a new situation and they fail miserable. I am not out to fix this but people must realize this. I know people who get mad when I play ball on the field while they do a long down. What is the problem with this? People get mad and I just say control your dog. If your dog breaks the long down and goes for the ball or my dog then I will use any part on my body to help you control your dog. Control is control and it does not matter. I will defend my dog and his toy with my foot. Maybe this is harsh but this is how I feel. When I go to a trial and practice for the long down I tell them to do whatever they like while I do a long down. When I tell my dog platz he must lay there until I let him up or there will be a size 13 foot in my dogs ass.

I agree with Jeff in many ways about the threshold of dogs. Jeff and I may not want the same kind of dog but here is what I want in a dog. I want the dog that has prey and defense. The dog can shift from one drive to the other very easily. The helper can make a prey type move and the dog is in the comfortable place. The helper makes a posture at the dog and he goes into defense/aggression. This is what I want. These dogs are very hard to come by IMHO. The dog that can switch in and out of these drives are great. I do not want a dog in pure defense all the time or pure prey. I want a dog that sees a threat and acts accordingly. Most dogs do not have this ability. I have no problem helping train a pure prey dog or a dog that has just aggression(most of these dogs are not good for Sch and not easy to come by either) but they are not the ultimate dog IMHO. No matter what drive your dog works it better not require me to run a marathon or beat your dog with my reed stick to get them in a drive. A dog needs to come on the field active and not require a stimulus but just a command.

I am done typing my novel now. I know everyone will not agree with what I say but that is fine. I will say that you may disagree with me and say this is a better way. If you can prove to me that your way is better I have no problem switching to what you are doing. I am constantly looking for new ways to train my dog but many people have this or that to say and have no proof to backup why they feel this way. No one knows it all even Helmut.


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## Michelle Reusser

I have to agree Daniel. I'm very lucky my dog transitions very nicely. I think the whip was used to start him up, until I had put a word on it. The bamboo clatter stick is what is mostly used these days.


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## Kristen Cabe

> Many people do not like the whip because of the the association with gunfire. All I have to say is get over it and train your dog to deal with the distraction. In my club if your dog can not heel beside you while I crack the whip then you need to make more control.


Ok, but odds are, that _same_ dog, had it _not_ been exposed to the whip in protection work, and trained to fire up at the sound of it, would continue to heel quite nicely no matter how long you stood on the sideline cracking the whip. 

On the one hand you say "If the dog needs the whip to become active then we need to backup and start from the beginning." The on the other you say "I like the whip." 

You go on to say that "No matter what drive your dog works it better not require me to run a marathon or beat your dog with my reed stick [or whip?!] to get them in a drive. A dog needs to come on the field active and not require a stimulus but just a command." 

So why do you like the whip, again?


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## Daniel Cox

Kristen Cabe said:


> Ok, but odds are, that _same_ dog, had it _not_ been exposed to the whip in protection work, and trained to fire up at the sound of it, would continue to heel quite nicely no matter how long you stood on the sideline cracking the whip.
> 
> On the one hand you say "If the dog needs the whip to become active then we need to backup and start from the beginning." The on the other you say "I like the whip."
> 
> You go on to say that "No matter what drive your dog works it better not require me to run a marathon or beat your dog with my reed stick [or whip?!] to get them in a drive. A dog needs to come on the field active and not require a stimulus but just a command."
> 
> So why do you like the whip, again?


Kristen,



Kristen Cabe said:


> Ok, but odds are, that _same_ dog, had it _not_ been exposed to the whip in protection work, and trained to fire up at the sound of it, would continue to heel quite nicely no matter how long you stood on the sideline cracking the whip.


I do agree with the above statement. I think you need some sort of stimulus to proof your control. This stimulus can be a helper tapping a stick on his pants, helper making noises, or a helper starring at the dog. I choose the whip because I think it is the ultimate distraction because of the noises it makes. If you do not want to use the whip then that is fine with me. It can be done with out a dog ever seeing a whip in protection or obedience. 

Maybe I should clarify this. I do use the whip in training but I want the dog to be active on the field before I start using the whip. I want the dog to come on the field barking at the helper while the helper just stands there or hides in the blind or hiding in the woods. When the dog barks he activates the helper and the helper might or might not have a whip. The whip can then be used as a tool to work the dog. Many different scenarios here. I do not want the dog to be reactive to any tool, this can be whip, stick, or helper dancing around like a monkey. I want the dog to bring the fight and then the whip, stick or whatever can be used to raise the drive higher in the dog. The road to get the dog that is active when it walks on the field is a process. Some dogs have this naturally and some do not. The goal of the helper is to get the most out of the dog and if this involves the whip then that is what is used.
Is this clear about what I am looking as I bring a dog on the protection field? I am trying to explain the best way I know how.

I think the whip can be used in many different manners. It can be used to raise the prey drive level. It can be used to make a dog go into aggression. It can be used to whip a dog in the face and let him know the helper means business. The whip has no single function but when used properly can be a great tool in Schutzhund protection training. How the helper uses the whip is so important. A good helper can read the dog and use the tool necessary. Many things are a stimulus for a dog. Helper pants, stick, whip, training field, putting on the harness, command and so on. All these or a combination of these can be a stimulus to alert the dog that we are about to do some protection. I want my training to ultimately be a command as a stimulus and my dog is ready. In order to accomplish this I must do the proper training. This is not easy. Just think about all the things that can be a stimulus for a dog.

Is that better Kristen?


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## Bob Scott

Our TD/helper uses the whip occasionally but we absolutely don't need to to get the dog's fired up when they come on the field. When the bite work starts they are all more then ready. The key with the younger dogs is to just get down the hill from the parking lot without being drug on your ass. The older dogs know to hold position till sent but they sure don't need encouragement of any kind.


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## Michelle Reusser

I'm trying to think back and find the (reason) the whip was used...to get a bark, keep pups attention? But they did that with the flirt pole and how they moved it. Ugh, I didn't know enough back then or ask enough questions and I don't work with the original guy who worked my dog anymore to go back and ask. That's why I ask more questions now, if I don't know what they are trying to get. If I don't understand, I ask, no other way to learn.


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## Kristen Cabe

Daniel, thanks for the response. I get what people use the whip for, but what I don't get is why it seems to be such a necessary piece of equipment. Both of my dogs require nothing more than me getting them out of their crate and hooking a particular leash to their collar (or putting an agitation collar on them) to know they're going to be doing protection work, and, like Bob said, it's quite a chore just getting them from the car to the field without being dragged on my ass. Deja starts her GSD death screaming as soon as the helper/blind comes into view, even if the helper is not even looking at her. Naccia doesn't need any motivation to fire up on the helper, either, though she doesn't scream at him from all the way at the car. :lol:


Maybe it's my newbieness showing, but I just can't see the need in using a sound to stimulate a dog to go into whatever drive they go into during bitework, and then have to re-train the dog _not_ to fire up on that same sound in every other circumstance. Why not just train them to ignore the sound from the beginning and be done with it? :razz:


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## Mike Scheiber

Kristen Cabe said:


> But once again I ask what is the point in teaching the dog to behave that way when he hears the whip/clatter stick/whatever if you're just going to have to turn right around and correct him for it later just to maintain control? Why use it at all?


I don't know how Danial could explain I guess the only way and it cant happen is train the same dog both ways and compare then you could see it and feel it.
Don't use the whip join the rank and file of the boarding bullshit 80% of the people doing Schutzhund today dogs are either beat down from stupid people and helpers not knowing what's in font of them or some pussy assed mono trained dog that makes a Border Collie look exiting doing Schutzhund.
As I stated in another post I am beyond confident my dog could put up V scores in protection with out ever seeing a whip. How fricking boring that would be. That would be like Slipknot playing Puff The Magic Dragon.
When we walk onto the trial field for protection I want my dog so hot and capped he leaves brown spots on the grass where he walked.
Next when I say Voran sparks shooting out of every oraphas of his body.
Than after the show is over and the helper walks up and says Quote from James Laney "thanks for letting me work your dog" 
This is how I want to present my dog on the Schutzhund field.


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## James Downey

Over the summer, I trained with Man that owns Quenny Ot Vitosha...That dog seems to have some success. though I am not fan of the whip...He uses a whip.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I agree with Jeff in many ways about the threshold of dogs. Jeff and I may not want the same kind of dog but here is what I want in a dog. I want the dog that has prey and defense. The dog can shift from one drive to the other very easily.

I have NO problem with that, it is the same thing that I am good with.

One of my problems with the whip is it is a crutch to "tap" a dog into drive to get them to work. This does work.

What I am seeing are dogs with thresholds that REQUIRE a STUPID amount of stimulation, with the marathon run, or the whipping of the feet to get the dog into drive.

There are many talented people out there that can get a dog to bite when others cannot. I have done this, but really what the **** was the point ??? THen the guy gets his three and breeds the dog. Well what the hell do you think the pups were like ??? At best, they were the same dog.

I think that is the point that I was trying to make and then I got distracted.

People are breeding dogs that cannot, could not explain a proper threshold to save their lives. I don't have a problem with them breeding, but maybe they read this and re-think what they are doing, or actively try and get a better understanding of thresholds.

I have had conversations with people who tell me that joe average couldn't handle a dog like that. Well, Joe average is not going to do much anyway, and with proper thresholds/nerve the dog is not going to be a menace to society anyway.

I would just like a GSD to do Mondio with someday. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 

Thats not so much to ask ??? 

Late at night I even think of a Rott that could do the work. [-o< I must be losing it.


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## jay lyda

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would just like a GSD to do Mondio with someday. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
> 
> Thats not so much to ask ???



So what are you waiting for besides the "perfect dog"? Good luck finding that one. What would it take you to go back to your favorite breed Jeff? I've been curious about that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Proper thresholds, and about 2 grand in the bank to get it.

I looked a while back, but I didn't find one that would work. I am probably going to go to hurl de vents in France.


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## Julie Blanding

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would just like a GSD to do Mondio with someday. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
> 
> Thats not so much to ask ???
> .


I don't think it's too much to ask. When you say 'do Mondio with' what would be your goals?
Just training or competing at the highest level?

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What is the ****ing point of just training ??? LOL 

I would want to get a three.


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## Julie Blanding

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What is the ****ing point of just training ??? LOL
> 
> I would want to get a three.


To have fun? 

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What fun is training and not trialing.?? That is like baking a delicious cake and not eating it.


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## Julie Blanding

hehehe true. I like trailing as well. I was trying to find out how far you wanted your GSD to go in the sport.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

If I want to get a dog for Mondio, then I want to trial it. I understand that most people on this board don't train or trial dogs, but I sure as heck try.

Going on the trial field with Buko is enough to give me the shakes, and I am not a wall flower. First dog to ever do that to me. Someday I will figure out what it is that gets him by.

He did well at his one this last time, but I swear it was because the puppy next to him had the runs and blew up in his kennel. He knows how I love that shit (pun intended) Kept him straight.

I think the other thing is that he appears to understand something very well, when in actuallity he does not. Got to figure that out, trying some fancy old shit I did now that I am not positive boy like before.


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## Julie Blanding

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If I want to get a dog for Mondio, then I want to trial it. I understand that most people on this board don't train or trial dogs, but I sure as heck try.


LOL ; maybe you're right. But there are a few of them that do :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I love when they say they cannot afford it. I make 14,600 a year. 

Buck up little campers !


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## Daniel Cox

I have a good question for everyone.

How do you feel about training with a leather whiplash without a popper?

So the helper uses a whip that does not break the sound barrier and makes very little noise. It is now a stick with a long string of leather.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I love when they say they cannot afford it. I make 14,600 a year.
> 
> Buck up little campers !



I can agree with this. My non-dog friends don't understand how I can afford it. I said, well, I rarely got out to the bar or buy alcohol and I don't smoke as well as this is my hobby. Every spare dime goes into my training. They ask why and I ask them why they smoke etc......The answer is always the same...because I want too. 

I make less than you on average...this year will be better...but it still is tight. There is no excuse other than laziness to not train IMHO. 

Courtney


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## Jaana Aadamsoo

Getting off topic here but I just remembered the look on my mother-in-laws face. She moaned at the dogs and shows and trainings and claimed that we bury all our money in those darn dogs and I just smiled and answered "Yes, yes we do. And by the way- I am thinking of getting a new one. A malinois- they are a bit like dobes but shed more, bark more, bite harder and I can´t get one from this country so I will probably have to drive to Germany or Belgium to get one." I wish I had a camera because this was priceless! After about 10 seconds she just went to the kitchen to check on the cake and I think I won´t have to have this conversation anymore for a while :-\"


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote If I want to get a dog for Mondio, then I want to trial it. I understand that most people on this board don't train or trial dogsUnquote

Where do you get that from?

I've trained over the years and had fun with it and obviously trialled. Training without trialling isn't training.

That I've had an outtime is due to various circumstances, accidents, work, renovating house, etc. but I'm sure going for it now and I've just found my "new" trainer who is my old friend and has promised to help me, help me. It's not easy here in protection sports, believe me but I want to get to a trial before they trial me:mrgreen: 

I don't believe the majority don't rial - hands up who doesn't (police handlers exonerated - gee, I hope you do train8-[ )


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## Michelle Reusser

I went into it with no intenetions of trialing. I just wanted to have fun and I do. I go at my own pace and with what my pocketbook can handle but I did my first trial in Oct and it was fun as hell...after the puke feeling subsided. LOL I wasn't nervous to fail in front of everyone, just would have been horribly dissapointed in my dog and self if we put in all that hard work and didn't pass. I think it's a great way to "test" how your training is coming along. If everything goes right (I don't run out of money to train) we will trial again in March. I have my schedule worked out so I can make most trainig days, if I just had the $ I'd go 3 days a damn week and trial all the events close enough to drive to.


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## Gillian Schuler

I agree Michelle, and, although I just love training, the outcome of a training has to be triailling.

Good luck with further trialling


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Gillian, there are many many people on this board that do not trial, and they are the majority by far.

Most just want to have fun with their dog, and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, most people in clubs here have dogs that are sub par, and train for fun. They are the engine that allows the people who want to trial opportunities to do so.


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## Bob Scott

I haven't had a dog in the past 40+ yrs that I haven't done SOMETHING with. Hunting, training and trialing in numerous ventures, even showing in the breed ring.
To me it's like buying a car and letting it set in the drive. 
Might have taken a 2x4 to a couple of them but I never used a whip on them.  :-#


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## Gillian Schuler

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Gillian, there are many many people on this board that do not trial, and they are the majority by far.
> 
> It must have escaped my attention....are they those who don't post
> 
> Most just want to have fun with their dog, and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, most people in clubs here have dogs that are sub par, and train for fun. They are the engine that allows the people who want to trial opportunities to do so.


I agree that the ones who pay their membership dues and don't require much supervision are financially a mainstay of the club. However, the fewer members go to trials, the fewer the club's own trials are frequented.

A few active and especially successful members bring Kudos to the club and are a good example to the "younger" members of what you can achieve. Among these few there are one or two A Os that we have to learn to live with O 

We have a lot of clubs for people who just want to have fun with their dogs and these clubs very rarely hold trials. On the other hand they probably have more fun than we do. What you haven't achieved, no one can be jealous of.:lol:


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## Howard Gaines III

Gillian I too would bet most don't trial. There isn't anything wrong with it. Different strokes for different folks! If you own a dog, you should be doing something with it or it will go nuts for a lack of excitement in its life.

The issue I have with trials, you train for patterned behaviors and scenarios. What might happen if you NEEDED your dog and all it did was dance around the bad guy looking for a sleeve. This might freak the guy out at first, then it's goooood dog, I'm out of here. :-k


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## Mike Scheiber

Howard Gaines III said:


> The issue I have with trials, you train for patterned behaviors and scenarios. What might happen if you NEEDED your dog and all it did was dance around the bad guy looking for a sleeve. This might freak the guy out at first, then it's goooood dog, I'm out of here. :-k


For those of us that trial it's fake it isn't real he is my toy to play with I don't want my dog to bite people at our house or even want them to be wondering if he should. 
If this was my intention for the dog I would have trained him a different way or if I was 
so worried about my world at home I would get a second dog and train it to bite around the house.


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## Howard Gaines III

Mike Scheiber said:


> For those of us that trial it's fake it isn't real he is my toy to play with I don't want my dog to bite people at our house or even want them to be wondering if he should.
> If this was my intention for the dog I would have trained him a different way or if I was
> so worried about my world at home I would get a second dog and train it to bite around the house.


Well Mike, you might want to change your users profile then as it states, "Don't own a dog." Of course it might not be a dog but a "toy!":-k :twisted: Forget the dog and get a goose, they peck and make noise, and if it fails to work out as planned, makes a good dinner!!!


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## Dan Long

I don't think that training for a trial would preclude you from training for real life situations.There is plenty of crossover and the foundation work goes into both venues. Some bite sports have more real life scenarios in them (like what Jay/Jerry are doing), more than those who train a dog on the same field, the same time, the same day of the week with little variation. How is that any different from patterned behaviors and scenarios used in sport training? Sending the dog for a bite over a hay bale or A frame on the same field it sees year long isn't much of a variance. 

How do you know if you "need" your dog it'll do anything if it's not on that field it trains on week in and week out? And, if you "need" your dog, is that bad guy going to wait while you go outside and let him out of his kennel? Someone with a sport trained dog that lives in the house at least has a deterrent, vs a dog caged up in the yard. A home invasion situation, a kenneled dog is useless. 

I think the people who put down trialing do so because they don't have the discipline to train for it, and feel training and titling your dog in a lowly sport such as schutzhund is somehow less macho than training for "real world" situations. Yet, the real world situations they train for are not real world. They are not training at ATMs, gas stations, parking lots- places where real world situations happen.


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## Jerry Lyda

Thanks Dan, you are so RIGHT.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

See Gillian, most of them do not trial.


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## Chris Michalek

Howard Gaines III said:


> Well Mike, you might want to change your users profile then as it states, "Don't own a dog." Of course it might not be a dog but a "toy!":-k :twisted: Forget the dog and get a goose, they peck and make noise, and if it fails to work out as planned, makes a good dinner!!!



I think its funny that Mike gets picked on.... I know its all in good fun and all however, I wish to make note that I have actually met Mike in person and he's definitely a good guy. Very generous and gracious with his time.


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> ...I think the people who put down trialing do so because they don't have the discipline to train for it, and feel training and titling your dog in a lowly sport such as schutzhund is somehow less macho than training for "real world" situations. Yet, the real world situations they train for are not real world. They are not training at ATMs, gas stations, parking lots- places where real world situations happen.


Well I'm glad I have been there, seen it, and done it in the sport of Schutzhund. Macho has nothing to do with the sport; it allows young and old, male and female, and the DVG allows all breeds of dogs to compete.

Training at ATMs or other public areas also sets the owner, township, or business up for possible liability issues! Don't know of many business people who want to give up their "bread and butter" to training folks, for whatever reason or venue. Training in public places also requires both physical and verbal controls over your dog...

And putting down PPD training is interesting in that some of the Schutzhund elements was developed from that venue. Even the BH has K-9 control and traffic applications, real world stuff!!!=;


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You work in an office don't you.


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## Michelle Reusser

I don't see the big deal going places to train. It's as easy as hopping in the car with your decoy or he follows in another car to a disclosed location. Doesn't have to be high traffic time at the ATM, do it at 9pm when nobody is there. I like the Walmart parking lot, local highschool track, car lots, etc. Have the dog on an e-collar so you do have a backup control incase something goes weird. As far as control goes, yea you shouldn't be doing that stuff in public, if your dog isn't to that point yet. I'll go anywhere with my dog and go about my business, if asked to leave then sure, I'd go. I have only been asked to leave the local Mall once and when I told the rent a cop my dog was in training, he said oh OK and let me stay. He didn't even ask what kind of training. I'm sure he assumed Police training and I didn't correct him. My dog doesn't piss on the floor or take a dump when he's onleash working and if he did, I'd clean it up.


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## Dan Long

Howard Gaines III said:


> Well I'm glad I have been there, seen it, and done it in the sport of Schutzhund. Macho has nothing to do with the sport; it allows young and old, male and female, and the DVG allows all breeds of dogs to compete.
> 
> Training at ATMs or other public areas also sets the owner, township, or business up for possible liability issues! Don't know of many business people who want to give up their "bread and butter" to training folks, for whatever reason or venue. Training in public places also requires both physical and verbal controls over your dog...
> 
> And putting down PPD training is interesting in that some of the Schutzhund elements was developed from that venue. Even the BH has K-9 control and traffic applications, real world stuff!!!=;


I re-read my post, I don't see where I put down PPD training. I enjoy PPD training, but I don't fool myself into thinking that real world situations occur on Sunday mornings in my back yard. 

You are the one who said, in a roundabout way, and in past posts, that sport training wasn't real world, ("The issue I have with trials, you train for patterned behaviors and scenarios. What might happen if you NEEDED your dog and all it did was dance around the bad guy looking for a sleeve. This might freak the guy out at first, then it's goooood dog, I'm out of here.") now you are telling me that the BH has real world stuff? So what is it? You said you don't like training for trials because it's nothing but patterned behaviors and scenarios, yet your version of PPD training is the same field, the same day of the week, the same time slot, the same scenarios week in and week out. How does that prepare you for "real life" situations any differently than someone who trains for trials? That was the point in my response.

Schutzhund been there done that seen it- I didn't realize a BH on one dog 10 years ago was all the Schutzhund experience anyone needed to formulate an opinion on the sport. And don't give me the "certified trial helper" line, because if you never worked a trial, the point is moot. Isn't the certified helper test a paper test? And the way you talked down about Schutzhund training when I belonged to your club, the message was clear how you felt that the training you do now is more "macho" than Schutzhund. 

Michelle- I totally agree with you on your approach to situational training. Get in the car and go somewhere. It doesn't have to be the grocery store parking lot at 10am Saturday morning. Time it so you are in places off hours. Go to the park and get bites on the playground gear at 6am. Go to the ATM at 10pm when no one is around, or the gas station at midnight. Go to the woods in the dark. Have the decoy come to your house and hide outside and attack you when you go to take the garbage out. There are plenty of ways to do it without causing problems for other people.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I can hear crickets.


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> I think its funny that Mike gets picked on.... I know its all in good fun and all however, I wish to make note that I have actually met Mike in person and he's definitely a good guy. Very generous and gracious with his time.


=; Dammit easy Chris I enjoy hiding behind the cloak of the Internet portraying my self as being a Schutzhund prick. :wink:
I have fun goofing on the insecurities and the fear many here have of the world.
Hell if I get board with that I can start to goof on the guy the goes around chasing geese and make believe bad guys. :-k


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> ... now you are telling me that the BH has real world stuff? Dan you have never even put a sport title on your dog. Get on line, the OB part is patterened, on lead and off. The traffic section is real world, do the test then tell me about it.So what is it? You said you don't like training for trials because it's nothing but patterned behaviors and scenarios, yet your version of PPD training is the same field, the same day of the week, the same time slot, the same scenarios week in and week out. How does that prepare you for "real life" situations any differently than someone who trains for trials? That was the point in my response. As a FORMER MEMBER of the group, you sure look to the past in this forum, don't you! Something sticking in your throat? We train on the same field and same farm because I own it, don't need to pay a lease or run off folks who have no business there, and we do use the entire farm. Most folks would fall apart at the chance to have such a set up to use! So in that regard I'm blessed and won't cry about it. It is central to all of our members, is a safe and well laided out field, and provides lots of scenario action that can't be had in your backyard!
> 
> We are also the longest running training group of its type in the area and possible in the state! This weekend, we will be hoasting a club from New Jersey and cross training with them. If we were a shifty organization, I doubt they would do a two hour+ trip one way. Again, as a FORMER member move on!
> 
> Schutzhund been there done that seen it- I didn't realize a BH on one dog 10 years ago was all the Schutzhund experience anyone needed to formulate an opinion on the sport. I didn't know that never working in the sport could allow YOU to even have an opinion about working dogs! How many working dogs have you owned, titled, or even better decoyed? How many dogs nonstop have you had to work on a suit or sleeve?And don't give me the "certified trial helper" line, because if you never worked a trial, the point is moot. Isn't the certified helper test a paper test? NO DAN! You do a paper test and a practical test. You catch dogs for all three levels; I, II, III. And you best not stand around like a statue or jam dogs with poor catches or do flying catches...paper is too easy! Try it some time and let me know when you do as I would LOVE to see it for myself!And the way you talked down about Schutzhund training when I belonged to your club, the message was clear how you felt that the training you do now is more "macho" than Schutzhund. Funny macho isn't something we do.
> 
> Michelle- I totally agree with you on your approach to situational training. Get in the car and go somewhere. It doesn't have to be the grocery store parking lot at 10am Saturday morning. Time it so you are in places off hours. Go to the park and get bites on the playground gear at 6am. Go to the ATM at 10pm when no one is around, or the gas station at midnight. Go to the woods in the dark. Have the decoy come to your house and hide outside and attack you when you go to take the garbage out. There are plenty of ways to do it without causing problems for other people.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I can hear crickets.


And the sound is sooo pleasing to the ears.:razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I still hear crickets.


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## Gillian Schuler

Howard Gaines III said:


> Gillian I too would bet most don't trial. There isn't anything wrong with it. Different strokes for different folks! If you own a dog, you should be doing something with it or it will go nuts for a lack of excitement in its life.
> 
> The issue I have with trials, you train for patterned behaviors and scenarios. What might happen if you NEEDED your dog and all it did was dance around the bad guy looking for a sleeve. This might freak the guy out at first, then it's goooood dog, I'm out of here. :-k


Training for the trial doesn't exclude diversified training. 

Why do people assume they know about everyone else's training and everyone else's dogs??????

If my dogs do dance round the guy looking for a sleeve - let that be my problem............you probably won't hear about it anyway after I've become a land owner[-( [-( [-(


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## Howard Gaines III

Gillian Schuler said:


> Training for the trial doesn't exclude diversified training.


Nothing wrong with that in my book. As long as the training doesn't mess up other training...
Land Ho!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mrgreen:


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## Gillian Schuler

Dwon boy!! You disappoint me - you were the one who said in PPD it's the dog that counts and not 1234:???:


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## Dan Long

"Dan you have never even put a sport title on your dog. Get on line, the OB part is patterened, on lead and off. The traffic section is real world, do the test then tell me about it."

And you have put a sport title on a dog? The BH is nothing but a basic obedience test. As far as the traffic portion- I do that almost daily, as I actually WALK my dog, in town, along the highway, everywhere. He's exposed to cars, bikes, pedestrians, even the fire trucks with their sirens blaring, and has never had an issue with any of it. His environment isn't restricted to the back yard. He was completely ready for his CD test, was working on CDX exercises, but we never followed thru and got the title as the test was not being given at a time that I could make it. If there is one thing that is a good point about my dog, it's his stable temperament and ability to take in new environments and situations.
 
"As a FORMER MEMBER of the group, you sure look to the past in this forum, don't you! Something sticking in your throat? We train on the same field and same farm because I own it, don't need to pay a lease or run off folks who have no business there, and we do use the entire farm. Most folks would fall apart at the chance to have such a set up to use! So in that regard I'm blessed and won't cry about it. It is central to all of our members, is a safe and well laided out field, and provides lots of scenario action that can't be had in your backyard!

We are also the longest running training group of its type in the area and possible in the state! This weekend, we will be hoasting a club from New Jersey and cross training with them. If we were a shifty organization, I doubt they would do a two hour+ trip one way. Again, as a FORMER member move on!"

The beauty of you kicking me out of your club is I don't have to keep my mouth shut anymore. I used to have to bite my tongue because so many of your posts were frankly embarassing. I like how you have your new members sign agreements that they can't say anything about the club and they can't train with anyone else. Sounds a little insecure to me. People find other people to train with, see their dogs make progress, and realize that the Gaines way isn't the only way, and it's certainly not the best way.

Your farm setup is nice- but my point is, you talk about sport dogs doing the same thing all the time, and you do the same thing all the time. Doing an area search in the hedgerow every couple months isn't changing things. Having the dog sit on a box or jump over a hay bale for a bite isn't changing things enough. The dogs know what is going on and anticipate the result. There are no surprises for them. 

Longest running club doesn't mean anything. Anyway- that Sch club over in Fairhill has been around quite a bit longer than you guys and actually titles dogs. That club down near Baltimore is certainly longer running and much larger. Oh, by AREA you mean Harrington. Sorry. And I don't see where I said anyone was shifty, that's your words, not mine. My former membership is actually a blessing. I'm having a much better time with my new group. The best thing going for your club is Andy. He's the one guy who the former members looked forward to working with. He was helpful, was always trying to learn, didn't have the attitude that he knew everything, and was open to discussion with members about training points. 

I didn't know that never working in the sport could allow YOU to even have an opinion about working dogs! How many working dogs have you owned, titled, or even better decoyed? How many dogs nonstop have you had to work on a suit or sleeve?

I didn't know that I had to do something to have an opinion on it. You certainly don't, with your opinions on sports you have never seen. I read, I observe, I learn, I form opinions. You passed one test, never did anything with it, and put an obedience title on a dog, and you talk like you've been decoying nationals for 15 years. You know my history with dogs. I have one "working" dog and I use that term loosely, as he doesn't have a job. To me, "working" doesn't mean doing bitework once a week. I don't have the room or time for more than one. I didn't even get this dog to do bitework, we came upon it as an outlet for his energy. He'll never be great at it but it's fun for both of us. We have a couple other dogs but they are not trained like the GSD. You know I'm not a decoy so whats the point of bringing that up? If I were a decoy, I'd do my best at it. I've caught a few dogs since I left, and I'm learning. I have a shoulder injury that is being treated so that's held me back on doing more in that area. I know that when I start doing it, I'll be taught properly, and it won't involve a bite suit, a running start, and a motorcycle helmet. 

NO DAN! You do a paper test and a practical test. You catch dogs for all three levels; I, II, III. And you best not stand around like a statue or jam dogs with poor catches or do flying catches...paper is too easy! Try it some time and let me know when you do as I would LOVE to see it for myself! 

When did you ever decoy at a trial? You make it sound like being a decoy is like being a rocket scientist. Sure it requires knowledge on how to read dogs, but to simply catch dogs, which is what everyone but you and Andy do at your club, well you don't need much for that. I know enough not to jam a dog, I know proper sleeve placement, I know not to stand like a statue. Yeah, I'm a little out of shape and can't stay out there all day catching dogs, but that can be fixed. Things like being scared of the dogs, being insecure with handlers doing off lead work, not wanting to catch dogs on frontal suit bites, that can't be fixed. 

Funny macho isn't something we do.

Yeah it is. You just don't see it. When visitors come and bring their bull massives and pit bulls to get evaluated you break out the dog and put on a show for them, to show them what a "real" dog does, and they soak it in because they don't know any better. It's nothing but testosterone flowing for you. Same as when the cars slow down and watch, the whole demeanor of the training session changes until they leave. Your members see it but they don't say anything for fear of being "restructured". 

Let the crickets return. Oh my.


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## Howard Gaines III

Cricket tunes! Short on accuracy and no need to air the reasons for your termination from the group. Regards!


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## Dwyras Brown

And the marking has begun. Quit pissing on everything boys.


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## Michelle Reusser

If you 2 get this thread locked, I'm coming to kick your asses.


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## Dwyras Brown

And I'm watching


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## Howard Gaines III

Michelle Kehoe said:


> If you 2 get this thread locked, I'm coming to kick your asses.


Michelle it ain't goning to happen and if it does, I'll take a shower and wait for the whoop'n. \\/ 
Jeff doesn't need to bring his bugs, crickets. Being bigger than an issue should keep a post open, any post. I feel I can speak for 2 on that one!!! My PM is still in the mail. But thanks for the adjustment clause and those waiting for the front seat row phun, go cut yer grass or shoven snow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This thread stays open, I hope.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You can see the personality that likes to use the whip. Still waiting on that video of this amazing whip work. I like to see the end results.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You can see the personality that likes to use the whip. Still waiting on that video of this amazing whip work. I like to see the end results.


HAHAHA, Lock Nest Monster! Whips, Wax, and Jeff..............:twisted:


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## Chris Michalek

I just want to see Dan and Howard get drunk and jump into the sumo suits so we can declare a winner.

Maybe a couple of bite suits would be ok but then we have to establish a rule...no arms or legs can be uses... mouths and teeth only.


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## Chris Michalek

Howard Gaines III said:


> HAHAHA, Lock Nest Monster! Whips, Wax, and Jeff..............:twisted:



Don't you mean Doctor Jeff?

I wonder if Doc could get the dimpled 12 yr old Avi gal to play with him. :-k


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## Howard Gaines III

Dude frost bite has got you big time! No arms, no legs, bite suit maybe?.....I was born on a day but not today. Let me speak to my PR agent, some super bling funds are needed for this one. Thanks for the shout, I think! :twisted: :-k


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## Howard Gaines III

Chris my guess the Doc is toooo old to play. In bed by 6:00PM and up at 10:00. Grits and a beer for breakfast. No, it ain't happening with Doc.  And the latest is he plays with bugs............LOL
I hear crickets....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Still waiting on the videos.

The crickets are back, much more pleasant than the BS flying through here.

I think it is time for the lock. Nothing of any use is being said.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Don't you mean Doctor Jeff ?

Uhhh, sure. Let me guess, you married the first girl that said yes to playing doctor??? LOL


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Don't you mean Doctor Jeff ?
> 
> Uhhh, sure. Let me guess, you married the first girl that said yes to playing doctor??? LOL



nope married the first girl that likes dogs, odd ball music from other countries and didn't care if I was on the road touring with a band for months at a time while millions of skanky bar hags wanted to play nurse with me.


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## Geoff Empey

Chris Michalek said:


> nope married the first girl that likes dogs, odd ball music from other countries and didn't care if I was on the road touring with a band for months at a time while millions of skanky bar hags wanted to play nurse with me.


One of my friends bands that we used to tour and chum around with had a song just for that very problem Chris .. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=RF6QYFOg9kI

(in B4 the lock)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nice. =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Howard Gaines III

Chris are you sure your weren't part of that rock group *Devo *and their song, "Whip It?"


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## Dan Long

Chris Michalek said:


> I just want to see Dan and Howard get drunk and jump into the sumo suits so we can declare a winner.
> 
> Maybe a couple of bite suits would be ok but then we have to establish a rule...no arms or legs can be uses... mouths and teeth only.


I have a built in sumo suit, does that count?


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## Chris Michalek

Dan Long said:


> I have a built in sumo suit, does that count?



only if you really want people to see your sumo diaper/thong thing. Personally the fake one on the sumo suit would be more than enough but that's just me. Just don't let Jeff Oehlsen play doctor with you if you get hurt.


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## Michelle Reusser

Wow, you guys have me wanting to go back to bed and pull the covers up over my head.


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