# probiotics and the raw diet



## Charlotte Carlson (Mar 5, 2009)

How essential is it to supplement with probiotics on a daily basis? My gsd has been on a well balanced raw diet since birth and I will occasionally give probiotics, either in powder form or plain yogurt, but not each day. 
He seems to do fine with or without it. Just wondering how critical it is to supplement with it regularly?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I give Probios about 3 or 4 times a week and then plain live cultured yogurt when I can get it. Our town is small and sometimes I can't get it if I don't order it. 

Never had an issue with not giving it.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

I dont know how essential it is but I figure for the small cost and effort, it's worth it to me. I know when I had horses, there was a world of difference on/off probiotics....I also know dogs aren't horses.
I was giving a spoonful of yogurt about 3 days a week mixed with the veggie slop but came to realize the gas is much less on the days he had to yogurt/veggie mix so now I give it daily. I don't know if it was the veg or the yogurt but it's only a spoonful of each so it surely can't hurt and why not if it might help. I also feed green tripe once a week.
Id guess there will be some who probably don't give any at all and their dogs do fine.


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## Charlotte Carlson (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks Carol and Angie. Your responses were helpful. I guess it's probably a good idea to keep it in his diet, if not every day, at least 3 or 4 times a week.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

it is not essential at all. If your dog is not on antibiotics, additional probiotics will not change the intestinal bacterial flora of your dog's gut and therefore are unlikely to have any beneficial effect. But, cant hurt...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> .... If your dog is not on antibiotics, additional probiotics will not change the intestinal bacterial flora of your dog's gut and therefore are unlikely to have any beneficial effect. ...


I've been reading up on probiotics for a couple of years; always looking for more info. Can you give me your source(s)?

Thanks!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Agreed...care to share those sources? I've thought about making probiotics a topic of research for an eventual residency research project. The colonization of salmonella, E. coli, campylobacter, etc. in the GI tract (as well as clinical signs) with and without species correct probiotics on a raw diet would be a good topic!


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Whoops, I forgot about this one... Here we go: 

"It is known that ingestion
of probiotic strains has not been associated with
long-term colonisation and survival in the host, as
probiotic strains are only retained for days or​weeks after discontinuation of ingestion [86–88]."
 
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118665200/PDFSTART

This one also might be of interest: 


"The occurrence of the probiotic strain in the human gut seems to be transient after intake stop." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> The colonization of salmonella, E. coli, campylobacter, etc. in the GI tract (as well as clinical signs) with and without species correct probiotics on a raw diet would be a good topic!


might want to look at that review first. germ-free newborn gut is colonized with maternally-derive bacteria during delivery (or with whatever is around during C-section deliveries). By the time you get to them (if I understand your aim correctly) you would not have much effect on what their guts are already colonized with; Although, I guess you can look at antibiotic treated animals...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Both of those papers address humans only, right?

I haven't seen any research indicating that probiotics persist in (or colonize) the gastrointestinal tract to a significant extent in humans, either. 

I _have_ seen research that showed species-appropriate persistence in the guts of animals, though.

I'll dig up what I've seen and saved. I'm sure there were several sources.



Very interesting!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Insofar as the O.P. goes, I think colonization may not be needed to get positive results in probiotic administration. I don't think the germo-a-germo competition we might be looking for (between, say, E. coli and bifidobacteria) is necessary. There was a paper about a protein produced by administered bifidobacteria that doesn't allow the E. coli pathogen to adhere to its usual receptors.* 

Again, I'm flying blind at the moment and don't have time right now to dig these up, but I will.

*bifidobacteria produce a 100000-kDa protein, which prevents the adhesion of pathogenic Escherichia coli to their normal receptors in the intestinal tract.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> Both of those papers address humans only, right?


No, its not only humans, but of course, the greatest research interest is in humans. The first review is a review, therefore looks at animal studies as well. You will find once you go through your studies and look at them carefully that it is likely most long-term colonization occured in: -antibiotic treated animals, or pre-weaning/weaning animals. The reasons are quite simple: in normally colonized gut there isnt much room for additional bacteria to colonize it, ie. there is competition for space. That is one of the reasons intestinal flora is so important- if the gut is properly colonized with them, there will be less room for pathogenic bacteria to seed it..


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> bifidobacteria produce a 100000-kDa protein, which prevents the adhesion of pathogenic Escherichia coli to their normal receptors in the intestinal tract.


and all of these are present in normal, healthy gut already...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> No, its not only humans, but of course, the greatest research interest is in humans. The first review is a review, therefore looks at animal studies as well. You will find once you go through your studies and look at them carefully that it is likely most long-term colonization occured in: -antibiotic treated animals, or pre-weaning/weaning animals. The reasons are quite simple: in normally colonized gut there isnt much room for additional bacteria to colonize it, ie. there is competition for space. *That is one of the reasons intestinal flora is so important- if the gut is properly colonized with them, there will be less room for pathogenic bacteria to seed it..*



Then persistence (colonization) is necessary, from this POV?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> You will find once you go through your studies and look at them carefully that it is likely most long-term colonization occured in: -antibiotic treated animals, or pre-weaning/weaning animals.


I will check it out. I find this fascinating.

But colonization doesn't seem to be crucial, or is it?


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Then persistence (colonization) is necessary, from this POV?



I dont get what you mean? Whether colonization is necessary for beneficial effects you mean? I have read so much conflicting studies that my personal view is that they dont have much of an effect if we are talking about healthy individuals (with healthy gut flora).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> I dont get what you mean? Whether colonization is necessary for beneficial effects you mean? I have read so much conflicting studies that my personal view is that they dont have much of an effect if we are talking about healthy individuals (with healthy gut flora).


Yes, that was what I meant.

Yes, I've read conflicting studies, too, including those that did show beneficial results without colonization as well as those that showed colonization in mice, pigs, and (I think) poultry. But yes, I completely understand your personal POV. 

I want to read Maren's study next, so get going on that, Maren, if you don't mind. :lol:


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Personally I think the greatest benefit and why this even became such an interesting topic to study is that I think there is enough data to suggest that bacteria can have a great effect on development of a newborn immune system that is open to colonization. In that light I view it as great and very important research as we know intestinal bacteria probably has a much greater effect on our immunity than we realize at the moment. However, the effect probiotics have on healthy adults, although a very attractive idea, is highly questionable imo.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> Yes, I've read conflicting studies, too, including those that did show beneficial results without colonization as well as those that showed colonization in mice, pigs, and (I think) poultry. But yes, I completely understand your personal POV.


Again, this colonization you talk about has been done in weaning/pre-weaning animals, not adults. It is a different story in adults and I think people need to realize that those two systems are very different. This is not really my personal view, its conclusion based on many studies.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Personally I think the greatest benefit and why this even became such an interesting topic to study is that I think there is enough data to suggest that bacteria can have a great effect on development of a newborn immune system that is open to colonization. In that light I view it as great and very important research as we know intestinal bacteria probably has a much greater effect on our immunity than we realize at the moment. However, the effect probiotics have on healthy adults, although a very attractive idea, is highly questionable imo.


I'm also very interested in Huffnagle's* stuff about the effects of probiotics on UNhealthy adults.




* U Mich Med, Dept Microbiology


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Again, this colonization you talk about has been done in weaning/pre-weaning animals .... This is not really my personal view, its conclusion based on many studies.


Ohhhh. That weaning/pre-weaning part wasn't clarified, that I recall. Big point!


When I said your personal POV, I meant this: _"... my personal view is that they dont have much of an effect if we are talking about healthy individuals (with healthy gut flora)."_ That was referring to benefits to adults without colonization.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

I know this is totally off topic now, but you might like to look at this then: 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100304142232.htm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> I know this is totally off topic now, but you might like to look at this then:
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100304142232.htm



Thanks!!

I would _love_ that kind of info when you happen across it, if convenient!


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Dont know if you looked at these yet, you might need to pay for full manuscripts but there is quite a few links in there all related to this topic: 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7122/full/4441009a.html


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> ... you might need to pay for full manuscripts


It's cheap. I'm doing it.

THANKS again!!


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## Linda xanda (Feb 15, 2010)

Charlotte Carlson said:


> How essential is it to supplement with probiotics on a daily basis? My gsd has been on a well balanced raw diet since birth and I will occasionally give probiotics, either in powder form or plain yogurt, but not each day.
> He seems to do fine with or without it. Just wondering how critical it is to supplement with it regularly?


I feed raw with no probotics. Have shepherd also.
I do beef and pork meats no chicken


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