# behavior or training ?



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

posted this on another thread but wanted to get some other opinions ...

something i always bring up and hash out with anyone i work with
Q : which is more important : 
1. learning basic canine behavior ? or 
2. learning basic training techniques ?

my (very strong opinionated) "attitude" is, if you have success with #2 and don't have any #1, you should just consider yourself lucky and thank the dog rather than pat yourself on the back
...and i do think it applies to "working dog" people as much as the pet crowd 

so for me, i think there is most definitely a priority of importance, and for me it always has to start with #1

and do you think that "having dogs all your life", etc.... will give you enough "OJT", or do you actually need to do some self study or get a mentor to understand canine behaviors and be able to read dogs accurately ?

or does it really matter and maybe not even worth thinking about ??


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

rick smith said:


> posted this on another thread but wanted to get some other opinions ...
> 
> something i always bring up and hash out with anyone i work with
> Q : which is more important :
> ...


The former teacher side of me says...
If I know the subject matter but DON'T understand me AGE GROUP, teaching anything is a joke!

I first must understand know the client, then I can taylor a clinic that's dovetailed into their field of understanding. How the dog accepts leadership roles and the behaviors I showcase are more important to me. Breaking the lesson down into small segments and testing for understanding, this is a training concept.


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

Is #1 intuitive? Are there some gifted individuals who "just know" how canines tick? I'm not talking ooga booga dog whisperers but I remember one trainer who had been around the block several times saying "some people will never get it"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I believe the aptitude for #1 is a gift given to some people, and and learned skill for others, and for some it will never happen...

just like common sense...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

.... interesting comments so far 
one simple example :

is it intuitive to understand that if you walked up to a strange dog for the first time and it yawned and rapidly licked its lips and looked away, that it was CLEARLY telling you it was not enjoying meeting you ? or would you need to be gifted to properly interpret this simple canine behavior ?
- i say it is not intuitive and it is essential to learn these BASICS, and is needed if you ever intend to understand dogs; working breeds or not
- obviously if the dog quickly nailed you, you would learn something, but fortunately (or unfortunately) that rarely happens 

i am NOT asking if there are "stupid people that will never get it" .... that would be pure arrogance imo :-(

i just felt there was a definite difference in #1 and #2 and i was just curious if anyone else thought it was important and worth prioritizing before you grab the lead and hit the training field

guess not ... as long as they learn to do what we ask them to do it shouldn't matter how they feel about it //lol//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and without some of this knowledge under your belt, i wouldn't advise trying to copy Bart Bellon's system of stick training either, no matter how "simple" he says it is //lol//

guess it only applies to "pet people" //lol//


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> and without some of this knowledge under your belt, i wouldn't advise trying to copy Bart Bellon's system of stick training either, no matter how "simple" he says it is //lol//
> 
> guess it only applies to "pet people" //lol//


hey dude...was just giving you the example you were asking for..

never said every tom dick and harry should try that shyt...


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I think that both are equally important. If I understand the "question" correctly. 
I also think that one #2 is probably learned before the other #1. 

Anyone can watch (either training on the field or TV shows or training videos) and apply it to their dog and get some kind of result. 
But, IMO, it takes working with or watching several different dogs to get the concept of the fact that dogs differ in "personality" and need more or less correction, a stronger or more assertive handler...ect....


I think that Brenda Aloff's books are one of the best tools out there to learn about canine behavior (for new handlers to experienced handlers alike). She gives accurate and fairly easy descriptions of all kinds of behaviors. 

I am sure there are more books out there, like the three volume, encyclopedia like books that are dog-eared, highlighted and chewed on sitting on my desk (I forget the author, but they are GREAT...however seem for the more experienced folks).


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

understand completely Joby ... i was only using that as an example too 
...for people who tend to think #1 is intuitive and automatically will be learned over time, which ime doesn't always happen and is an often overlooked component in any training system "dog reading 101" 

but actually i'm planning to use a stick a lot more in my training
good tool to have around


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> .... interesting comments so far
> one simple example :
> 
> is it intuitive to understand that if you walked up to a strange dog for the first time and it yawned and rapidly licked its lips and looked away, that it was CLEARLY telling you it was not enjoying meeting you ? or would you need to be gifted to properly interpret this simple canine behavior ?
> ...


ok Rick I will participate..

when I say read dogs...I think in the context of bite work training, looking at the dog from in front of him...or observing other dogs in training...

that helped me tremendously in learning how to look at my own dogs..

I am far from the greatest helper, especially physically now...but there are many times I wish I could work my own dog...reading dogs in that regard is not a super common skill...I have given up ownership of more than a couple dogs, just so I could work them..in the past.. I trained dogs in basic OB and household issues, behavioral for a good decade..still do occasionally..people are amazed...normal people..at how I interact and work with thier dogs..

I am pretty humble and self depricating, I have been told by many helpers and trainers far better than myself that they have learned from me, and that I sell myself short...but I dont have a big ego, although it might seem like it...I am a problem solver at heart...solve the problem..

I will admit, I am better at solving other peoples problems than my own..because I am generally lazy with my own dogs. and know them well enough, and do things with them, that I would never recommend anyone else do with their dogs...I understand them well enough to provide a safe environment, for them, and for everyone else..in daily life..and that is fine with me...I never really competed in anything other than basic stuff....if I let my dog bite a guy that broke into my house, I really could give 2 shits if the dog outs on command....if I let the dog bite the guy, we are way beyond needing an out...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I very much enjoy understanding canine behavior. Without it then technique is nothing more then going through the mechanics.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

rick smith said:


> posted this on another thread but wanted to get some other opinions ...
> 
> something i always bring up and hash out with anyone i work with
> Q : which is more important :
> ...


Canine behaviour is number one, but understanding techniques is also important. If you can read the dog you can make adjustments to techniques. I think that in some cases growing up with and having worked with lots of different animals does give you a lot of experience in how to behave and problem solve around animals, particularly ones that you dont know and particularly if in the process you have been involved with experienced people. 

I think self study is important but in particular a good mentor is invaluable. I wish I was in the position to work more with some really good dog people, but isolation and circumstance prevents that for the most part, so I do the best I can with my own resources. I dont think anything can surpass the value of a good mentor that can pass on their experience. I would love now to go a droving or mustering with the stockmen of old and their dogs on the old stock routes, how much I could learn from them!. I did once but being very young and more interested in the horses, I wasted the opportunity.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

consider this thread closed from my end.
Tx to those who answered my Q's and appreciated the inputs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> .... interesting comments so far
> one simple example :
> 
> is it intuitive to understand that if you walked up to a strange dog for the first time and it yawned and rapidly licked its lips and looked away, that it was CLEARLY telling you it was not enjoying meeting you ? or would you need to be gifted to properly interpret this simple canine behavior ?
> ...


 
The look away would be a dead giveaway but the other "calming signals" weren't as apparent to me until I read Turid Rugas. Regardless, I allow a dog to come to me upon first meeting. If it doesn't, I leave it alone. I'm fascinated with the canine behavior aspect of it and being able to read it. The moe you know about the behavior aspect, the better trainer you can be. Truth is though, I don't think soem people care. Its merely a matter of making doggie do what they want it to do and not getting caught up on the dog's point of view.

T


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I think I'm better at #1 than #2 & I believe part of one is the gift of observation, but with due respect I know dogs taught me about dogs and I know I believe what my mentor said,"the more dogs you handle the more you'll learn." when I started I worked for private & commercial kennels handling every breed and mutts around. One kennel was into showing rare breeds (I was there as Rotts weren't common yet in early 1980's) but I showed dogs, I worked with field dogs & other hunters and having been physical most of my life I loved the protection aspect. If you ever see me at a training field with permission I will be as close to the work as possible. I think all dogs are alike but different in behaviors (generally speaking) the other thing is perspective/visual. Dogs see things differently according to head type etc. so I try to visualize what they see/perceive, honestly my hearing and sense of smell has improved, that should give a chuckle! But what I know best is that I don't know squat but I'm still learning. So I say you should know both in the order presented. JMHO


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