# To train? or not to train?



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I have to make a decision about training my dog. I would like to attempt to train my dog for SchH 1. The nearest club is 2 hrs away. And I don't think it is going to work out (see below). So I'm asking you comments and advice on the situation.

The dog has prey drive. At home. He is distracted and loses much of his drive away from home. He gets better every time I take him out

He was in a shelter for most of his life and then he came here and because of some personal reasons, I have not socialized him as much as I want to. He was most certainly beaten when he was in drive and when on leash. It does not appear to be a problem now.

I have taken him to a SchH club twice for evaluation. The training director felt he was "friendly and stable" but was clear that she really didn't think he could do it. She feels the distraction is only a drive issue - that lack of early socialization has no effect. She clearly thinks that the dog's genetic is the only thing that matters.

She feels his work ethic is poor. And away from home it is poor. But at home he will not stop searching out his ball or whatever, not matter how tired. He'll stop and rest for a moment and go right back to looking for that darn ball (or whatever) without prompting. I don't think that is poor work ethic.

I do not agree with the training director. I feel that I should do drive building every day in a new place. The training director feels that is a waste of time.

I don't think the dog is fabulously special. I know he has all odds against him. That's OK. I'd be happy to get him though a BH. Or a CGC. :blush:

Am I crazy? It the training director totally correct? Am I wasting my time? I feel like clicker training the whole bitework routine with my goofy little trick/stunt dog just to prove my point - that bitework is a simply a series of behaviors. (Yes, I know, horribly simplfied. My bad. You get the drift.)

What do you guys think? Jeff - you can be mean and sarcastic. I won't cry. :grin:

I tried to keep it short. I may have left something important out so ask away if you need to.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

You can train the obedience and scent work. You can fake the bitework to a certain degree but if the dog was never strong in the beginning he will come off during pressure. Depending on how he is you could probably go through club trials, I dunno. Definitely you could do a BH if he has so much as a passing interest in food. Heck, even not...

I don't think you're wasting your time if you accept the dog's limitations and use it to learn on. But when you get a good dog you will learn for sure that genetics is the best thing that matters...not the only thing, but for sure it's like 80% of the equation.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I don't see a reason why you could not obtain a BH with your dog or a CGC if that is truly what you would like to do. 

That being said....one person's opinion does not make it gospel. I had a training director at a local SchH club tell me that my dog would leave me on the field on a BH, only because I used the "obedience without conflict" method to teach her obedience. She obtained her BH at 15 months and DID NOT "leave me on the field" as predicted in training or at the trial.

If you set realistic goals for yourself and your dog...I don't think your crazy. I don't think training for a BH or a CGC will harm you or your dog....I think your bond will increase and both of you will only gain confidence. 

As for obtaining a SchH 1....who knows? I've seen several dogs that by all appearances looked like "duds" during their first few visits to training and then the light came on.......You never know until you try. Hopefully you can find a club or group that is willing to help you give it a go.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Training a dog like this is hard work for the TD and Helper. This may be the reason they gave you their opinion. I too see no reason why you can't do the OB. I agree with what was said above. 

How old is the dog?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

BH, AKC obedience, tracking, tons of things to do with your dog. Wether the dog can do bite work is another thing. That's just so hard to determine without knowedgable observation. More then one person's opinion is a definate help in your decision. 
One thing for sure. Working with a less then perfect dog will only make you a better trainer.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Working with a less then perfect dog will only make you a better trainer.


Absolutely!

Thanks for the encouragement. I will get my butt out there and start doing stuff  At least a CGC :lol:

Jerry - don't know how old the dog is. My guess is 3 and most people think he is 10 - 14 mo because of his energy level. He was in a shelter for a year and I have had him for a year. The shelter lady did not say he was a puppy when he came in as a stray - and she would have told me if he appeared to be less than 6 mo old. He's getting up in age there for such a training challenge. I figure it will take 10 years... :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> BH, AKC obedience, tracking, tons of things to do with your dog. Wether the dog can do bite work is another thing. That's just so hard to determine without knowedgable observation. More then one person's opinion is a definate help in your decision.
> One thing for sure. Working with a less then perfect dog will only make you a better trainer.


And what's wrong with a CGC? No blush smiley needed!

Also, as you know, motivational training can build the confidence and enthusiasm of the dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Zoso was much like you described...lots of energy and willingness to work in the backyard, but genetically, I don't know what his background is and I didn't develop the prey drive at all when he was a young'en. If he's your first dog for Schutzhund, I say go for it if they would agree to work with you. I worked Zoso a year in Schutzhund before switching to agility and if I got my butt in gear, he could do the BH. Turns out he is actually not bad at tracking, even though he never progressed beyond a puppy sleeve in the bitework. Even if your boy never gets past a tug in protection, that's okay. You pay your dues, have a positive attitude, and contribute to the club and you've got as much right to be there and have fun as people with their high power Sch III imports or whatever. You have to work towards your goals. Plus even if you mess up, you didn't just drop a couple grand for a really nice puppy so no harm done. At least that's what I keep telling myself.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Thanks Maren. Actually I think he will be fine on bitework. He's not an instinctive dog but he learns patterns well and strikes the sleeve nicely in prey drive. His grip leaves something to be desired, but I messed it up badly with disc training.

One other thing - if I keep going to SchH, they'll do the bite-for-bark training. We did that for less than a minute maybe 3 weeks ago. I'm still having to put a no-bark collar on everytime I take him out for play or training. If he barks and my neighbors complain, i will not be able to keep him because I have a variance to keep more dogs than the city ordinance allows. They'll take away the ordinance if there is any complaint about my dogs.

How can I allow him to bark for the tug/bite bar/sleeve, but NEVER bark for his disc?

And suggestions on stopping THIS behavior?


Shot with KODAK C340 ZOOM DIGITAL CAMERA at 2007-07-09


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> And suggestions on stopping THIS behavior?
> 
> 
> Shot with KODAK C340 ZOOM DIGITAL CAMERA at 2007-07-09


You could back away or turn around..... or raise a knee ..... causing him to have an undesired (to him) loss of balance along with loss of landing on your front. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Unless that's a picture of him dropping on you from a tree.....


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

LMAO!

Well I'm a through with claw marks down my back and bruised knees. You may try, however! :lol: It may be a lost cause. Or maybe I'll just go and try again.

I guess it is entertaining! (when it's not totally scary)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Anne, your plan to go ahead and desensitize him by going out to new places and building his confidence in prey, i think, is excellent. you already know how to do that. as far as "titles", and the TD's eval, well, do the confidence building, take him to training and go as far as you can with him. which is a lot further than i would be able to take him!!

and keep us posted on how/what he does--that's invaluable to us newbs.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

as far as the barking goes - they know the difference. I don't use bark collars (except occasionally during that magical time that happens twice a year, when my nerves just can't take it any more :lol: ) and both of my dogs are very clear on the difference between barking around the house and barking on the training field. This isn't any different than any other patterned behavior - just like they know that they can raise a little hell when they're out in their crates at training, waiting their turn - but I better not hear a peep while I'm driving.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

The jumping...try to just stand and ignore the dog. Don't react. Yes, despite the scratches and bruising. And you might bleed a little.  But this is how I curb my dog's jumping, especially if I come home and he's all over me. To react, as I see it, is to reward him, even if it's something as simple as leaning one way to avoid him or cringing. It's amazing how perceptive dogs are. And how they feel a little stupid for trying to play with something that seems dead.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I fixed it! :lol:

I taught him to jump rope today. I call him to "front" "wait" "hup" and "wait" while I stumble over the rope. He has a solid wait and he does it twice for each jump - so it works. Plus, he has a cool trick now.

I am looking forward to seeing if it ends the random jumping up in my face. He isn't "punching" us in the stomach now. I hope this is a permanent solution


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Great idea!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Cujo was Mr No-Focus away from home. Now he is fine when he sees a sleeve and a stick, but it was alot of work and I won't be trialing him, but it was fun learning and gettng him to where he is. If the decoy and TD don't want to spend the time on it is another matter, but the dog could probably do it "for fun". This is the benefit to me being a decoy, I work my own dog


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What do you guys think? Jeff - you can be mean and sarcastic. I won't cry. :grin:

Here is my thought now that this is almost over. Stop with the ****in rescues already.

I pretty much will help anyone with any dog, as long as the dog and the handler are having fun and PROGRESSING. In a club, especially any kind of serious club, I can see them weighing in crazy Anne showing up with another junk resue. LOL

My suggestion is that you go get a dog that was bred for this, instead of all the crazyness and then give this a try. Then you can look back on all this rescue foolishness and wonder just what the **** were you thinking.

I always knew you were nuts, but I remember you working at a certain kennel and just thought, holy shit the cows were never in the barn.

Now get rid of the stupid rescues and pit bulls and whatever else you got, hell, sell the baby,:-$ I hear they are good money nowadays, and get an actual working dog breed. : )


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In the early 90's I belonged to a club that had a really talented helper, but the training director was one of those people that just couldn't say "no", so we ended up in an uber sized club. Many of these people were really nice, but were there more for social reasons or just wanted to have fun with the dog. Consequently we were at club on Tues & Thur nights from 5:00 until after Midnight. The helper was being used up on dogs that were never going to be trialed or never would have the ability to get much more than a passing score in the protection phase on a 1. Eventually the helper and a few others jumped ship. We started a new club which was a royal pain in the ass and could have been avoided if only the original training director had been a little more discriminating in who got in the club. Becasue of our previous experience, we were very very discriminating about who got in. We wanted to protect our helper & ourselves. I'm not talking about only allowing tip top prospects, we wanted people who wanted to compete, regardless of wether it was club level, regionals or higher. What I suggest is if you want the club to continue to train a dog that perhaps is not a real sport prospect, than make sure the club sees YOU as the asset. Be extremely useful. The first one there, take out & bring back blinds, sleeves, any equipment. Bring water etc, for the helper. Help out any way you can. It's amazing how much about someones dog can be forgiven! Beyond that, if you find you really like the sport, I would be surprised if you don't do as Jeff suggests (save getting rid of the rescues) & get yourself a real prospect!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> In the early 90's I belonged to a club that had a really talented helper,


Talented is not enough. "Durable" -- now THERE's a requirement.

I read on another forum that our own Chris D. was durable. :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Even the best of them wear out working 30 plus dogs a night. If they don't wear out, they tire out - especially if they aren't appreciated or if they don't see progress in the dogs they are expending so much energy on.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Well, someday I will get a REAL workng dog for ring sport. I think it will be like 2015 or whenever one of my current dogs passes. Not anyday soon. 

I don't want to be a pain in the rump or anything, but I would like to continue learning so I'm prepared for the future working dog I plan to have.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I always knew you were nuts, but I remember you working at a certain kennel and just thought, holy shit the cows were never in the barn.


Jeff I have no idea what you mean by this statement!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

he's just being jeff, anne. no worry


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Didn't I read that you worked at a kennel?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Yes - that would be correct. So I really do know how awful my dog is compared to a real working dog.  

But I also see him at home as being very comparable to the dogs I handled at the kennel. If fact, the person in charge of that kennel did a mini-evaluation (like 30 seconds) and thought Kado had good potential for scent detection.

It's just the away from home stuff that he sucks so bad at. He was not socialized as a pup. It's very hard to go back and try to do it now.

But I still have no idea what you meant about the cows and the barn. I even googled the expression. :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sorry, I thought it was more popular than that. Nevermind.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

jeff-i got it (or thought i did!!). a slam, but only if the slamee gets it. and if you didn't intend a slam initailly, well, there's a new one and only you and i will *get it*....hmmm. not sure if that's a good thing....HELP!!!!!

and if it wasn't a slam, well, i have a *LEETLE* bit twisted outlook, and don't anyone worry: i'm ok in public (mostly, unless you think singing w/a hairbrush (microphone) is weird)...

oh geez-NEVER MIND


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is much more fun to watch the slammee not get it in person, as the hair is always messed up on top of their heads. And, yes, this happens quite often here in sunny Denver, not sure, but I think the altitude affects them as children. Soft as warm butter they are out here.:smile:


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

ditto to what Susan said - most people won't mind working your dog, even if it sucks, as long as you contribute to the club in general and show gratitude.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is much more fun to watch the slammee not get it in person...


MUCH better in person. however, having been the slammee in person, i'm always startled at how red my face gets when i DO "get it". then i ask for a 20 min break to come up with an appropriate come-back


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