# GSD Popular Stud Dogs--Pike vs Schafbachmuhle



## Terrasita Cuffie

Working traits he was known for? Producing ability--working traits; health; etc.


T


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## ann schnerre

have you seen videos of him?? i would love to have Pike in a pup--inTENSE. maybe a bit "not for a beginner" close up...but god that dog...


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## Daryl Ehret

The only club member's dog that I would have liked to take home with me was a Pike grandson. But, I couldn't guess how prepotent. There were siblings of that dog which did not impress.


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## ann schnerre

if no one gets to it before me tomorrow, there's a fantastic vid of Pike on youtube..

re "siblings did not impress": again-bitches influence comes in here. 

glad you're getting in on this one daryl--you are the genetics king


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## ann schnerre

my current Ikon has Pike as a great grand-sire on the dam's side. i find Ike sharp (in good way), LOVES to work at anything, NEEDS to be working, a bit reactive, but has more balls than brains at times. there--does that help??  

here's his ped:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=620777&p=5-generation-pedigree

and i can say more about him, but Pike's back there a bit...(but i'm glad he is)


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## brad robert

would consider seeing him in a pedigree a very good thing his offspring seem intense and they throw that too


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

ann schnerre said:


> have you seen videos of him?? i would love to have Pike in a pup--inTENSE. maybe a bit "not for a beginner" close up...but god that dog...


I think one of his best sons was Gideon gardefense KNPV PH1, PH2 OBEJECT BEWAKING that's trained in KNPV. Gideon has produced some nice KNPV dogs himself.
Although unrelated to Pike--Jucan von Peroh reminds me of pike a lot, they kinda look and act alike.


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## ann schnerre

now Gideon Gardefense definitely rings a bell. hmmm. do you have any video links you can post to him? but yeah--rings a "good dog bell". i LOVE PIKE--and his grt-grandson


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

ann schnerre said:


> now Gideon Gardefense definitely rings a bell. hmmm. do you have any video links you can post to him? but yeah--rings a "good dog bell". i LOVE PIKE--and his grt-grandson


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyVCMOm77U

A couple of others on youtube. There's a website where you can see a bit more of him

http://k9gardefense.nl/


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## brad robert

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think one of his best sons was Gideon gardefense KNPV PH1, PH2 OBEJECT BEWAKING that's trained in KNPV. Gideon has produced some nice KNPV dogs himself.
> Although unrelated to Pike--Jucan von Peroh reminds me of pike a lot, they kinda look and act alike.


Good point oluwatobi.I became interested in gideon when i was looking into GSD in knpv and saw his name coming up alot as i said i think this a very strong line


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## Tiago Fontes

I am getting a Pike grandson (through dam's side) very soon. 

Very excited about him, from what I've seen so far! 



Regards


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## brad robert

lucky bugger!!


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## Mario Fernandez

A lady that use to train with us knew Mr. Emken(pike owner) or a relative of him and would get dogs for LE or sport from this person. Every couple of months she would have a new young to older dogs for sale. The dogs I saw had extreme toy drive.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Anyone familiar with the dog's "character?" Where's Max Orsi when I need him. What about health and longevity. I'm assuming grips, intensity, aggression but how are they to live with?


T


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## Jim Cook

I had a Pike son, Shaddow vom Musikanten Hof, that looked and acted a lot like the Pike I've seen in videos. Shaddow had super trainability, big full grips, tons of prey drive and a nice dose of fight drive, along with great focus. He loved to work for his handler and was a lot of fun to train. 

The bad side was that he had food allergies, poor conformation, and was a horrible jumper, possibly due to his conformation. He retired at 4 years old with spinal problems, and eventually devolped DM late in life. He never travelled well, always seeming to have allergy flare ups when we travelled.

Despite his health issues, he did V rate at schH1 and schH3, with 100 in protection in his final schH3 trial. Unfortunately he retired early on in his career.

All in all, he was a wonderful dog to own, shy of his health issues. His level of trainability made him a real pleasure to train.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Cook said:


> I had a Pike son, Shaddow vom Musikanten Hof, that looked and acted a lot like the Pike I've seen in videos. Shaddow had super trainability, big full grips, tons of prey drive and a nice dose of fight drive, along with great focus. He loved to work for his handler and was a lot of fun to train.
> 
> The bad side was that he had food allergies, poor conformation, and was a horrible jumper, possibly due to his conformation. He retired at 4 years old with spinal problems, and eventually devolped DM late in life. He never travelled well, always seeming to have allergy flare ups when we travelled.
> 
> Despite his health issues, he did V rate at schH1 and schH3, with 100 in protection in his final schH3 trial. Unfortunately he retired early on in his career.
> 
> All in all, he was a wonderful dog to own, shy of his health issues. His level of trainability made him a real pleasure to train.


Dare I ask after the other thread--territoriality, natural protectiveness? Can you post a pedigree. 

Thanks for the input.

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre

it'd be nice to hear from ppl that owned/worked Pike offspring closer than mine (he's really too far back in Ike's to give much credit). 

i hadn't heard of health problems overall, but...


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## brad robert

Dasty was another extreme dog from pike and he also seems th throw the same as pike does


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Okay, define extreme and throws what in terms of working traits and is that regardless of what bitch and bitch lines?

T


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## brad robert

There is video of dasty on youtube and everything i have seen or read about him this seems to be the case. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3ZY0kePhwg&feature=related

They throw hard dogs that are extremely trainable. I know what you mean i should just say strong working traits as extreme is a word that gets branded around way to much.

http://www.vombanholz.be/ some dasty offspring and some interesting breedings certain names just keep appearing and check out the female page lots more dasty


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

brad robert said:


> Dasty was another extreme dog from pike and he also seems th throw the same as pike does


I second that. The vom banholz kennels in belgium used him a lot. The only thing i didn't like was his size, a bit too big i think but like you said he produced some very nice progeny. 

They have some good progeny at www.vombanholz.be


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## Jim Cook

*Re: GSD Popular Stud Dog Pike vs Schafbachmuhle*

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=119716

Shaddow's pedigree. 

Mario, who posted earlier in this thread might remember Shaddow, he decoyed Shaddow a few times, and decoyed him in his final schH3 trial in Denver.

He was not protective at all, a dog with a real "off" switch, and was a wonderful house dog who was usually asleep somewhere in the house, not guardy at all. Other Pike sons I saw at the time were more edgy/nervy type dogs. I'm unsure of their mother lines though. Shaddow's temperament was pretty balanced overall, a real pleasant dog to own. His health problems were a real bummer given his working ability. 

I hope this helps.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thanks Jim. Wish we could get more posts like yours.

T


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## Katie Finlay

Jim Cook said:


> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=119716
> 
> Shaddow's pedigree.
> 
> Mario, who posted earlier in this thread might remember Shaddow, he decoyed Shaddow a few times, and decoyed him in his final schH3 trial in Denver.
> 
> He was not protective at all, a dog with a real "off" switch, and was a wonderful house dog who was usually asleep somewhere in the house, not guardy at all. Other Pike sons I saw at the time were more edgy/nervy type dogs. I'm unsure of their mother lines though. Shaddow's temperament was pretty balanced overall, a real pleasant dog to own. His health problems were a real bummer given his working ability.
> 
> I hope this helps.


I have a Pike great granddaughter the same way. Total off switch and a great house dog. Her drive is pretty low but when she does push to work she looks really nice. No health problems at all. She's large for a bitch at 80lbs.

Here's her ped: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=687735

Wish I knew more to give more input.


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## Sue Calkins

I have a Dasty son out of an Asko Lutter daughter, Lazer vom Landschaft SchH3 KKl1 OFA good H&E
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=408409
I love this dog! However, we've had training/control issues that cloud the scores. Should've been a nationals dog, but I was his handler.He is a dog that by nature does everything full throttle. Extremely powerful (not just my prejudiced opinion...this is feedback from those who worked him/judged him). Large, yet fast and agile for his size. Very good in the house, well balanced, great with kids/other animals, will protect. Very trainable (I think this led to skipping steps which caused some of our problems) with no handler aggression. Unfortunately has develped pannus so not being bred now. Produced one litter.. I took a female for the stud fee. Bara: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=718663 She is also super in the work..serious and powerful, confident, lots of drive and nice focus. 
Was planning to title her this fall, unfortunately just diagnosed with spondylitis so is no longer doing jumps or bitework. Also has allergy issues in the spring. Again, while an excellent breeding candidate from the temperament side, will not be bred due to health issues. So I don't know where the health issues come from in both dogs, very disappointing, especially the spinal problem in my female. The pannus in the male is manageable and doesn't affect the work. Almost makes me scared to get another GSD. Don't know how the other pups in the litter turned out except that one male was working and doing nicely last I heard.
Sue


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## James Larkey

Hey Sue, 

I remember seeing your dog work at OG Inselstadt's Flink's seminar last spring. Exceptional temperament in your female... The health issues are a real let down.

Arc, my black shepherd you saw work goes back to Dasty and Pike, also. Intense drives. Full, hard grips. Very loving and affectionate to the handler, but, very serious in his work.

Here is his pedigree.....
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=620050

And some video from a 2009 seminar. He is only nine months old and this is Arc's _first time_ on a helper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyVz1bry0l8

I have quite a bit more video of Arc and will try to remember to post it to this thread if I get it uploaded.

And here is some video of Pike since I didn't see it posted yet....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehGjpi4bV68


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## Tim Connell

My female Baghira has Pike in there...I just had a great litter with some outstanding pups. But, there are some outstanding dogs on both sides. Troll, Fado, etc.

( http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=571552&modir=512955 )

Baghira is a super dog, I really could not ask for a nicer female. Rock solid. Great nerves, full mouth grips, athletic, and fast. Social, but good natural suspicion. Nice intensity in bitework. V rated, Sch II, kkl1. 100 point tracks, with protection scores in the 90's. She's a nice masculine looking female.


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## Sue Calkins

Perhaps Pike is key in producing good females....substantial with strong temperament. However, I believe Deika Wannaer Hohen is also noted as a good producing female. I don' t know enough about who produces what, thus my interest in these threads


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## Bob Scott

Not a breeder and don't understand the genetics of it but why wouldn't these good producers produce good bitches also? 
Seems like a no brainer to me but a good produce is a good producer, correct?
All we seem to hear is the great "dogs" produced by the great producers. 
I do realize it's much easier to see results in a "dog" as opposed to a bitch when it comes to producing because you can breed a "dog" to a number of different bitches. It can be done with bitches but just not so easily.
:-k .....Did I just answer my own question? :-k


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## Tim Connell

Sue Calkins said:


> Perhaps Pike is key in producing good females....substantial with strong temperament. However, I believe Deika Wannaer Hohen is also noted as a good producing female. I don' t know enough about who produces what, thus my interest in these threads


Deika is also in Baghira's pedigree, on the dam's side. Pike is on her sire's side. 
My personal opinion is to go with a strong female, not to breed to marginal females, in the hope that a great male carries the litter. It can only increase your prediction of a strong litter. Bonus if she is a good mother and her stability is demonstrated to the pups.


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## Tim Connell

Bob Scott said:


> Not a breeder and don't understand the genetics of it but why wouldn't these good producers produce good bitches also?
> Seems like a no brainer to me but a good produce is a good producer, correct?
> All we seem to hear is the great "dogs" produced by the great producers.
> I do realize it's much easier to see results in a "dog" as opposed to a bitch when it comes to producing because you can breed a "dog" to a number of different bitches. It can be done with bitches but just not so easily.
> :-k .....Did I just answer my own question? :-k



My personal opinion is to go with a strong female, not to breed to marginal females, in the hope that a great male carries the litter. It can only increase your prediction of a strong litter. Bonus if she is a good mother and her stability is demonstrated to the pups.

The mother has a lot of behavioral influence since she spends a lot of time with the pups, aside from genetics...so whether nature, nurture or a combination, why not stack the deck in our favor by breeding to solid females?


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## Katie Finlay

Bob Scott said:


> Not a breeder and don't understand the genetics of it but why wouldn't these good producers produce good bitches also?
> Seems like a no brainer to me but a good produce is a good producer, correct?
> All we seem to hear is the great "dogs" produced by the great producers.
> I do realize it's much easier to see results in a "dog" as opposed to a bitch when it comes to producing because you can breed a "dog" to a number of different bitches. It can be done with bitches but just not so easily.
> :-k .....Did I just answer my own question? :-k


I second this. Why don't we hear about good females?


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## Daryl Ehret

Because high level competition handlers use males.


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## Sue Calkins

I know some dogs/ or breeding combinations produce better females/broodbitches than others. I also believe the mother's influence has a huge impact on pups. We even see it in people. The mother's mood/attitude communicates to the pups....if she's not confident and calm, she'll naturally relay this anxiety to the litter..and they don't understand the why, only the reaction of the mother.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think one of his best sons was Gideon gardefense KNPV PH1, PH2 OBEJECT BEWAKING that's trained in KNPV. Gideon has produced some nice KNPV dogs himself.
> Although unrelated to Pike--Jucan von Peroh reminds me of pike a lot, they kinda look and act alike.


I know Gideon very well. especialy as a young dog when Willem Gepken ( a well respected trainer in KNPV ) was training him. He also wanted to train a Pike-son. He had been to Germany an saw Pike work. However, he gave Gideon back to Jan (owner of the Gardefencekennel ) because he found him too soft/handlersensetive in ob.

Dick


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I know Gideon very well. especialy as a young dog when Willem Gepken ( a well respected trainer in KNPV ) was training him. He also wanted to train a Pike-son. He had been to Germany an saw Pike work. However, he gave Gideon back to Jan (owner of the Gardefencekennel ) because he found him too soft/handlersensetive in ob.
> 
> Dick


Thanks Dick,
Did his being handler soft translate to being a weaker dog in protection work? Are there some handler soft dogs that are still excellent in fight drive? I remember Martine loots talking about a dutch line mali that was losing drive because of the amount of control needed for NVBK work but the dog eentually became a good police dog and sired some good dogs.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks Dick,
> Did his being handler soft translate to being a weaker dog in protection work? Are there some handler soft dogs that are still excellent in fight drive? I remember Martine loots talking about a dutch line mali that was losing drive because of the amount of control needed for NVBK work but the dog eentually became a good police dog and sired some good dogs.


I think thats very personal. What one thinks is a very good dog for protection, the other might think different about.That also counts for what is discribed/meant by a (working)policedog. What is suitable for the one as a policedog and what is a true policedog by nature for the other is a diferent diskusion. 

Dick


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I think thats very personal. What one thinks is a very good dog for protection, the other might think different about.That also counts for what is discribed/meant by a (working)policedog. What is suitable for the one as a policedog and what is a true policedog by nature for the other is a diferent diskusion.
> 
> Dick


Thanks again dick,
What i mean is -have you seen dogs that are handler soft but still have very high fighting drive, i mean will fight decoy or suspect no matter what but are just handler sensitive.
Also personally would you breed a dog that is handler soft but has good fight drive?
I really appreciate your input.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I also think this is an important distinction. I think handler sensitive can be relative. Earlier in the discussion there's mention of dogs that are biddable/trainable. I work a dog like that and characterize him as handler sensitive/biddable. The most correction this dog will ever need in drive or not is a firm "no." Anything you train/teach him, he will seemingly do for life. So he's very trainable. So in Gideon's case and considering pack dynamics, can a dog be sensitive to his pack leader but not to anything or anyone else or do you feel he will eventually break down or submit to the man/decoy in a bitework scenario. I keep thinking of the social aggression description. So in other words, can he have that social aggression and fight against others outside his pack if he is sensitive to his pack leader? Can handler sensitive merely mean that it takes a fairly low level correction to achieve compliance?

T


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## Daryl Ehret

Handler sensitivity doesn't directly affect hardness in protectionwork or fight drive.


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## Marie Stewert

I saw this thread about Pike, and thought to add my post. 

My dogs great great Grandfather is Pike, on his dams side. He is a very confident dog - considered a *serious* dog on the field ( 17 months old ), moderate prey drive, very territorial and dominant but biddable in obedience and a great nature.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

So you all mean to say that if a dog has fear-to-failstress and won´t work anymore with the slightest pressure its a good stud????:-o:-o

Dick


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## Tommy O'Hanlon

Handler senstive dog means a soft dog in general terms to me. A dog that cannot take pressure is my idea of a soft dog, as regards GSDs Caro van Brandevoort(spelling?) looks a promising young dog
Tommy


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## Daryl Ehret

Yeah, because handler sensitive to me means responsive and not soft.


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## Tiago Fontes

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> So you all mean to say that if a dog has fear-to-failstress and won´t work anymore with the slightest pressure its a good stud????:-o:-o
> 
> Dick


 
I am not understanding, 

Are you saying Pike is soft or Gideon is soft? 

Also, what is your opinion on Gideon? 


Thank you


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Tiago Fontes said:


> I am not understanding,
> 
> Are you saying Pike is soft or Gideon is soft?
> 
> Also, what is your opinion on Gideon?
> 
> 
> Thank you


In reaktion of;"Gideon beeing the best ofspring from Pike", I wrote that his first owner gave him(Gideon) back to the breeder as being very sensitive. That is a fact and i am not giving a personal opnion about Gideon, because it IS a personal opinion..

Dick


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## Tiago Fontes

lol, ok. 

Opinion taken.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I guess now we are in to terms--handler sensitivity vs. fear to fail stress with pressure resulting in the dog completely shutting down. I'll say at the outset, I had a dog handler hard to correction, yet biddable. That is my preference. I don't want what Dick has described. However, if the dog is biddable [not all sensitive dogs are biddable--had one of those too], do you really need to correct or pressure it? I think of this in terms of the obedience context but I guess if he has all the fight drive in the world in the bite work and his handler corrects him and he quits--that's a problem.

T


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## Mike Di Rago

I think people like to oversimplify things as far as dog behavior and also in dog training.
Handler sensitive means that the dog is very attentive to it's handler and will react very quickly to handler actions or commands.
Softness in the dog, I believe is more of a threshold thing in regards to various stimulus.
Some dogs have both characteristics, some only one, but one doesn't necessarily mean that the dog will automatically have both. ie can be handler sensitive without being soft. 
JMO
Mike


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Okay, thinking about Dick's post, I decided to check out to see what happened to Gideon. First, when he was returned to the breeder had he been titled first and then disregarded as a future stud or did someone else title him [KNPV PH 1 CH, PH 2 CL, Kkl 2]. Second, what has he produced? How has the handler sensitivity reproduced. Doesn't seem to have affected his ability to do the work. The dam line is pretty solid KNPV but pretty scary in the hip department. Gideon himself is rated as a HD fast normal with no reference to the elbows.


T


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> So you all mean to say that if a dog has fear-to-failstress and won´t work anymore with the slightest pressure its a good stud????:-o:-o
> 
> Dick


Hi Dick,
For those of us that have only seen Gideon on videos there's no way we would have known that he stops working under pressure from the handler, when you said handler sensitive i thought you meant that he would just react slightly unlike some dogs that would almost ignore a correction.
I'm guessing you might have met Lubeck von der mahler meister, is he also handler sensitive/soft?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, thinking about Dick's post, I decided to check out to see what happened to Gideon. First, when he was returned to the breeder had he been titled first and then disregarded as a future stud or did someone else title him [KNPV PH 1 CH, PH 2 CL, Kkl 2]. Second, what has he produced? How has the handler sensitivity reproduced. Doesn't seem to have affected his ability to do the work. The dam line is pretty solid KNPV but pretty scary in the hip department. Gideon himself is rated as a HD fast normal with no reference to the elbows.
> 
> 
> T


Jan vd Tak, the breeder himself, titled Gideon for his certificates.

Dick


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## Jim Cook

My old dog Shaddow was somewhat handler sensitive, but not soft in the work. It's two different things, a dog can be very submissive or sensitive to his handler yet hard as nails to the decoy or threat. I like a little sensitivity towards the handler personally, helps keep the dog/handler relationship in the proper order. Shaddow hardened up in time, when he was 3 or so, a moderate prong collar correction would make him wag his tail and I'd see a positive change in body posture. It wasn't like that in the beginning.

The Lasso/Watts breeding we did brough Pike in from Watts, but way back. The pups are very biddable and handler focused though, not sure if that comes thru the Pike/Dasty/Cita side or not.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

This is a very interesting thread for me because for the work I do, I need a dog that is biddable to the handler yet highly confident with the livestock. I deal with the same drives--prey, defense, fight, etc. Its fine that the dog is biddable in the obedience phase but what have you guys seen when he is in drive with the protection work. Same biddability? 

Terrasita


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## Kevin Cramer

My first working dog was a Pike daughter, Fenja von Wilderfedeland. She's the black shepherd in my photos. Her obedience was great, tons of prey drive, confident, all around great dog. She was the ideal dog to start with when getting into working dogs (I got her when she was 3). Her bite on the sleeve was nothing to brag about but she was a great dog. She's now a pet with another family.


She was very fast too. No slowing down on a courage test, like a good Mali.


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