# Teaching Fuss as a position



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I have searched for a topic about this and failed to find it--if I just suck at searching, please direct me!!


I have a 16 week old pup for my next sar dog. Last time I taught heeling, I did it in motion. Basically moved in a small clockwise circle with ball as lure, rewarding when dog was in position. I remember reading, as I was asking for tips, someone saying they taught the heel as a position. I think I get the concept, but not sure exactly how to go about it. I have found much about teaching heel in motion, but none about heel as a position.....Did I make this up??

Thanks


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I teach it as a sitting exercise. For the first couple of weeks, I do nothing but move a foot forward, backwards and sideways. Lots of people teach the finish at this stage but I don't do that either. 

I like to work against a wall or kitchen counters, that keeps the dog in position, especially for left and right turns. Start in the corner and teach get him to look at you. The you progress to a right turn (only one step) Then you progress to a left turn. After that moving forward is easy and you'll have that cool appearance that the dog is velcro'd to your side when you move left or right. Be sure you don't get ahead of yourself. Get it solid against the wall before you do it elsewhere. 

I also teach it without a lead first and then add the lead as a distraction.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks Chris. I wasnt sure if a sit or a stand was better. Do you use a food/ball lure to get the focus up? What if they remain in the stand after you take the step forward etc?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Thanks Chris. I wasnt sure if a sit or a stand was better. Do you use a food/ball lure to get the focus up? What if they remain in the stand after you take the step forward etc?


What you use to lure the dog depends on the dogs. I prefer food and with my Mal, I can't use a toy to teach anything in the beginning because he gets spun and that makes him stupid. 

If he stands then tell him to sit. If you only move 6 inches at first there isn't enough time or space to stand and walk.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

When teaching a complex exercise, any, you should keep any single behaviour separate until the dog is proficient at every single one, showing a clear understanding.

In the case of heeling, the focus, the sit and the position are to be kept separate, to be able to mark with a "good" (wanted behaviour) and "bad" (unwanted behaviour) each separate one, otherwise the dog may get confused on which behaviour you are correcting or rewarding.

It is also helpfull to give each separate behaviour a different command, until proficiency, so you can ask the dog to perform, correct and reward every separate one, untill ready to(trough repetition) perform all behaviours automatically at once.

One example (without separating the different behaviours) would be the dog assume the correct position but does not sit or looks at you, how would you clearly comunicate to the dog that the position is correct but the other two behaviours are not without creating confusion?
How would you correct the non sitting or the non looking at you without the dog thinking the position was also not the espected behaviour?

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

In this video the dog already has a basic understanding of the position (not in motion) the focus with distractions (without lureing him) and the sit, and is learning (second session) to keep the focus while in motion, without being ask to keep also the position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGgwheNdzjY

Here the dogs have all the basic behaviours in motion and we are working on precision (still teaching)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLxK1b63UU

The next step will be proofing and increasing speed of execution.

Happy training

Max


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The 2nd Balibanov DVD goes into this pretty well. With that method the foose command means stay with my left leg. That's for sitting or moving.
If you want the dog to stay in the sit position when you walk away then step off with your right foot without a command. If your going to continue moving with the dog at your side, step off with the command and your left foot.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Not that I would put this a dog training book. But just one more Idea. I taught the dog to watch from standing right in front of me....static. When I got really good focus. I started walking backward with the dog looking at me. And rewarding for longer and longer duration. Then I, slowly pivoted to the dogs side. Rewarding when I got there. then adding duration. That worked nice for me. so, I moved, the dog just walked in a straight line.

I get the Ivan with the left leg idea. and I am sure there are plenty of people who can teach it. I do see a whole bunch of people walking funny walking with thier left leg making these exagerated steps....and the dog is looking at them like thier retared....I have seen a few of these trainers do this for a dog's working life....and got shitty heeling. I am positive the method is effective and an excellent way to teach the dog...But it's comical to watch. I guess these people obviously missed something.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

James Downey said:


> and the dog is looking at them like thier retared...



:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James you bring up an excellent point. 
For beginner, in particular, they should do LOTS of foot work without the dog. 
A new handler trying to teach a new dog sure doesn't need to think about foot work on top of it all.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

James, as I said before, a technique is only as good as the person who applies it, otherwise anybody could buy a "black belt" class and be the next Bruce Lee.

The IPO obedience I most admire are the one of Ivan, Mario Verslype, Mia skogter and Marina Skuh, not in the order, I hope in the future to be able to train and learn from all of them.

Happy training

Max


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> James, as I said before, a technique is only as good as the person who applies it, otherwise anybody could buy a "black belt" class and be the next Bruce Lee.
> 
> The IPO obedience I most admire are the one of Ivan, Mario Verslype, Mia skogter and Marina Skuh, not in the order, I hope in the future to be able to train and learn from all of them.
> 
> ...


Totally Agree Max...I was not bagging on the method one bit. I was bagging on the application.

Max you have a PM.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Jennifer, if I understand your question, the concept of teaching "fuss" or "heel" as a position goes back the Roman armies, it is a position, according to the story, that allows the dog to enter a fight without interfering with the soldier in the fight. Heel or Fuss in this concept is both an active and a static command. If the handler is in motion the dog is moving with the handler in a fixed position at the left side.

If the handler is stationary the dog is seated in that same position at the left side. If the dog is seperated from the handler and the handler gives the "fuss" command the dog joins the handler at his/her left side, either moving with, or seated stationary beside them. In the heel command when the handler stops the dog must come to an automatic 'sit' without any other commands, because it is a position and not a separate action for the dog.

Stepping off with the left leg is the original way of teaching "Fuss" or Heel. If the dog is seated at your left and watching out for possible threats in front of you then when you start to move forward the left leg will be seen the easiest by the dog. The movement of the left leg becomes a secondary command for the dog to move. Your left leg motion becomes a sort of hand signal for motion from the dog.

It has only been in the last twenty or so years that Fuss or Heeling became what some refer to as a "focus" exercise rather than a "position". That is why, in the past, it could be used to walk the dog through a crowd or as a recall when he takes off chasing a squirrel.

Stepping off with the left leg as Bob Scott mentioned in the Balabanov DVD's has been the way to teach the position for centuries and in the US the "position" or left leg concept, goes back as far as competitions and police dogs in this country, from Saunders to Koehler to Balabonov today. It's just not "IN" on the internet apparently.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks guys! I have always taught the heel in motion, but was intrigued by having it be a position. 

Bob--Is the Ivan tape the 2nd on in Obed. with out Conflict? I did see that one, might have to borrow it again. Again, I understand the concept, but have never tried to teach it yet. I wanted to make sure I dont skip any steps.
I am absolutely not organized enough to deal with the left leg thing LOL, while I think it is cool, not gonna happen for me!! All I need is basic heeling with a reasonable amount of attention.

Remus already knows sit and platz and offers these behaviors when he wants something. He has a nice natural attention (has really gotten that I am the bringer of good things) and it is not something I am worried about yet. 

Max--how exactly do you start the fuss position? What is your progression of steps?

Thanks again


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

I start by developing the mechanical skills in the dog to stay with the left leg, using food, without any commands.

The goal at the beginning is to make the dog undestand that when in a particular position, the heel position (does not matter if the dog sits or stand in this fase since is not under command) in this case, is constantly rewarded.

When the dog can maintein the position without straying for an extended period of time, I put a word to the behaviour and ask the dog to perform it (find the leg) to obtain the reward.

I have a very nice pittbull that started training with me a couple of weeks ago that is doing that right now, if you are patient I will make a video next sunday and post it.

It is much easier to understand when you can see it done, very easy for the handler and very plesurable for the dog.

Happy training

Max


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks Max--I'd appreciate that.

I started with Remus today and if I can get someone to video me, I will post and you all can tell me if I am doing it right!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Downey, I did about the same thing as you are describing for a long long time, only I wasn't working on focus, and I was luring. Shit it works real good even for retards. (say it like the guy in "hangover)


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Downey, I did about the same thing as you are describing for a long long time, only I wasn't working on focus, and I was luring. Shit it works real good even for retards. (say it like the guy in "hangover)


Yep pretty simple shit. 

I did lure also, I taught the focus, static...with free shaping. Then when that was proofed. I walked backward and lured with a shit ton of food.... slowly weaning her off it. Then when she was able to follow without the lure, I made he watch while walking toward me, then I marked it...and started my pivot over time, marking her for not turning her body, and watching me.... Could it be, Could it be...my wolfpack has grown to 2?.....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer, yes the #2 tape is the "without conflict" tape. 
I will also add to Butch's comment about the "focused" heeling being relatively new.
I competed heavily in the 80s, into the 90s in AKC obedience. When I first started in the early 80s it was seldome seen. Mostly just the Goldens, Border Collies and Shelties doing it. Like anything else that catches the judges eye it becomes a fad, then on to the "need" to do it for points. 
Michael Ellis is supposed to be coming out with a new heeling DVD this year. I expect that to be a good one!
Tom Rose also has one that is pretty good. Somewhat older and being in the Tom Rose part of the country here I know that compulsion (e-collar) is used quite heavily. Not just the food method seen on the screen. 
Not to praise or dis the methods, just an observation.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Its funny, Bob, I was talking about the fuss today with a teammate and she said--"well, just teach him the focus and the fuss will just come naturally." While I want some focus, I dont the need the eyes on me constantly. Griffin looks at me because he knows I have the reward--but he also looks at his surroundings, it's a back and forth. I wasnt going to bother too much with the focus, I just wanted the position. I certainly am not going for any points, obedience and control are pretty important for me for real world applications.
I assume I can teach the position with out being anal about the focus???


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ... Michael Ellis is supposed to be coming out with a new heeling DVD this year. I expect that to be a good one!


Rumor has it that the rest of the filming was done last week; let's hope that means the video will be available soon!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Its funny, Bob, I was talking about the fuss today with a teammate and she said--"well, just teach him the focus and the fuss will just come naturally." While I want some focus, I dont the need the eyes on me constantly. Griffin looks at me because he knows I have the reward--but he also looks at his surroundings, it's a back and forth. I wasnt going to bother too much with the focus, I just wanted the position. I certainly am not going for any points, obedience and control are pretty important for me for real world applications.
> I assume I can teach the position with out being anal about the focus???



You can absolutely teach it without the focus. The dog can see where your at at all times with periferal (sp) vision. If they forge or lag it's because they haven't learned the position or the results from loosing it.
My older GSD Thunder has excellent heeling but I don't get all excited when he shifts his vision to check ahead. 
In training all you have to do is change direction when your dog looses position. Then, depending on methods, the dog either looses the reward or gets corrected.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Rumor has it that the rest of the filming was done last week; let's hope that means the video will be available soon!


Sounds great!


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Rumor has it that the rest of the filming was done last week; let's hope that means the video will be available soon!


-Starts saving money- I really love anything with him in it. He explains it in such a way that if you can't understand his point you really must be slow.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Here you go Jennifer.

This is Sampson 4 Y/O pitbull rescued, 2nd session practicing and developing the mechanical skills he would need to learn how to heel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYIm_-MMmSU

Happy training and have fun with your dog

Max


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Hey Max--I forgot to thank you for posting the video--Thanks for taking the time!
Remus picks up quickly, but he is a stubborn little snot. If he sits a little behind my leg (I often work this in a hallway with a wall to his left), he insists that that is where he should get the treat (after all, he gets treats for sitting dontcha know..). I will keep holding the treat by my leg and he finally moves his little butt up.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

The problem I have with focus or perhaps the eye contact as it can cause a dog to crab in front - trying to see the handler's eyes. Right now I am using food for head position during motion. sitting at my side in heel position, there is no way he can see my eyes only the left side of my face, maybe and my shoulder - so I am trying to teach what he will see with correct position. Its a lot of luring. Of course he's just under 5 months of age. I haven't added a formal command until I can get head position , body position, etc


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sara, Just something else to be aware of is where are you are offering the reward. I had a problem with the dog coming around in front of me. I thought it was so she could look in my eyes also. But some one pointed out that I when I was rewarding I always did it from right hand, and the dog would start to anticpate that they needed to come around in front to get the toy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> The problem I have with focus or perhaps the eye contact as it can cause a dog to crab in front - trying to see the handler's eyes. Right now I am using food for head position during motion. sitting at my side in heel position, there is no way he can see my eyes only the left side of my face, maybe and my shoulder - so I am trying to teach what he will see with correct position. Its a lot of luring. Of course he's just under 5 months of age. I haven't added a formal command until I can get head position , body position, etc



I agree with how your doing it. Mark and reward when your BOTH in correct position. Not just the dog.
Jame's comment is also another reason for the crabbing.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Rumor has it that the rest of the filming was done last week; let's hope that means the video will be available soon!


Connei

Leerburg is taking orders for the Michael Ellis Focused
Heeling DVD to be shipped late March early April.
I've already ordered mine


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I started KC luring with food against the fence, then the ball, here he is at 4.5 months old putting some things together with some distractions, i go nice and slow so he can get it right and don't lose patience if he doesn't http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K-JGufWHYY , 

Teaching pups is the best times! Make sure and enjoy it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice job Al! 
Looks like you've got a natural gathering dog in the group also. :wink:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

LOL Bob, that would be AJ, he does that to everything , all the time.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You need to try him in a sheep pen. Seriously!


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