# PPD Training - Starting the suit early & Targeting



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I was training with someone recently who is very quick to go to the bite suit for PPD's to avoid sleeve-focus.

I personally don't like skipping over most of the foundation work and jumping right into the suit with a green dog. Just curious what other people's philosophies are on introduction of the suit on a young green dog (1 year old ish)?

I've heard everything from starting puppies at 8 weeks to laying a solid foundation on a bite bar sleeve first IPO-style and progressing to the suit when the grips are set.

This trainer also had the philosophy of "let the dog bite where they can bite" even if it means the dog is biting wrists and ankles the whole time. I was not impressed with that mentality so stopped going there.

Just curious what other peoples ideas on sleeve fixation and early suit work are?

(Plus I was going through the forum and I am not seeing many threads on training related topics anymore, so maybe we can get a good discussion going now).


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

We do all of our work on a tug to sleeve to suit. You don't build a house without a foundation, the bite targeting, counters and different bite tools are all foundation items. One of our club members has had their GSD doing leg and body bites. The puppy had all of the foundation work on the leg and arm sleeves.

Anytime you skip a step, you run the risk of creating problems in another area. PP, sport, or service all rely on steps. Just the way we roll!


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard, us too.
We will use the dreaded table for better targeting on the suit. It's easier than the dog being on the ground and you have more control where the dog bites. We let the dog tell us when they are ready for the suit.


----------



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> For my PSDs I start civil sack, civil tug, civil sleeve, civil concealed sleeve, civil muzzle, lastly suit.

> takes a little longer, but the time allocated to each step has ensured some good biters when needed.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

My pup was only on a sleeve a few weeks and was put on a suit. Targeting on the suit is still important and my TD is very clear with that. He doesn't let dog go willy nilly and bite whereever they want, they are shown where to bite. We use the table too to help with targeting. One bite too high or too low and back on the table they go. They go on a dog by dog basis at the club and there are many older dogs than mine still on a sleeve or working back and forth from suit to sleeve. I have never asked why, but my dog has not been presented a sleeve in over 6 months, unless it was a hidden one. Maybe it is a question I will bring up at the next training. I never really thought about it as I am working in PSA and the suit is the sport not the sleeve. Since my dog targets upper arm/bicept area on the suit it would be interesting to see him back on a sleeve but I am 99% sure he would bite the sleeve and not the upper arm. Our decoys are too good for that and I think my dog would remember the sleeve work, even though it was brief. It's the same as presenting a tug after the suit, he knows where the heck is suppossed to bite it. Not sure why early suit work would be connected to bad training. My dog is doing quite well from what I hear.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I need to get a "civil sack" LOL

Puppies that will go to the suit, need to go there as soon as they are strong enough to do so. Targeting is important, so we stay on the legs until it is time to start teaching accesories. At that time we teach the pups to avoid being blocked by targeting upperbody. We take our time to make sure that the puppy is targeting where we want them to.

Yes Mike, too many fluffies on the forum.#-o How could you let that happen?????:lol:


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with Jeff, assuming I have a skilled decoy to work with I put my pups in the suit as soon as they are ready. If they need it I can always go back to slippable equipment, but the targeting, regrip, etc can all be taught on the suit. It's not about avoiding equipment fixation though, since I'm training sport dogs, but just that is what they are going to be biting later on in life, so if they are capable of doing so earlier, why not.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So when you start early on the suit, do you slip the jacket/pants? Choke the dog off the bite? Or start the out very early on so the dog is outing all the time?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I start the out early. Actually IMO if the dog isn't ready to out, then it isn't ready for the suit. But I also teach the out off toys and such before we start the suit, so the dog has a basic idea. And I will use food or toys while working the out with a young pup. If we get to a point where the pup is refusing to out for a reward, then I'll introduce some corrections. A lot of this can be controlled by the decoy though, not getting the pup so amped up in the work that he can't think straight and out cleanly. In French Ring the out is such an imporant part of the trial, they have to be FAST. And basically the dog is outting off a moving decoy, since the decoy doesn't stop fighting until the dog is commanded to out, so if he's stopped moving, your out was slow. So I think it's a good habit to just get the dog in from day one, out means out, it's not a big deal, you will get to bite again in a moment. 

It's kind of like training a pet dog. You don't let it jump on you when it's a puppy, because it won't be cute when it's a 90lb adult. If done fairly and methodically, teaching an out early isn't going to destroy a good pup, it is just part of the game to them. Encouraging them to be a monster when they are young, choking them off bites and all that, with a pup who isn't overly biddable, results in a dog you are going to have to put some pretty hard training into as an adult to try to get good clean consistent outs.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So when you start early on the suit, do you slip the jacket/pants? Choke the dog off the bite? Or start the out very early on so the dog is outing all the time?


Mike, have you considered Ivan Balabanov's method? He calls it "The Game" and it involves biting on a bite-pillow, tug, etc. as a game and when he asks the dog to "out" he stops all movement. When the dog releases the object Ivan will begin again to put some animation in the object and allow the dog to bite it again. The idea is that the dog learns that outing actually restarts the action as opposed to stopping it. I'm certainly going to give it a shot. Hopefully it will carry over when we progress to more serious work.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

For the most part PSA dogs are up top and it is easier to slip a jacket than the pants. Also the out does not need to be so fast and everyone I know, do not teach the out until later. My dog does out his toys, tug, the jacket when we get to the car and he has carried it some but I still choke him off the decoy at this point. We don't say out until they have already let loose in the begining. We were working the out on my male, when I stopped training for a month. Time to get back in the saddle. 

Either way if done correctly or rather it is the correct method for said dog, many ways are the right way as long as the dog gets it in the end. What I love about training is watching dog after dog and asking questions (probably my TD is rolling his eyes half the time) why was this dog done that way or why did the decoy do this instead of that? That's just the way I learn. I also like to keep an open mind a watch different clubs/trainers and figure out thier methods.


----------

