# Non-Sanctioned KNPV



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Do you think there will be a rise in non-sanctioned KNPV clubs in the USA? Since we can title dogs there now? I think the biggest hurdles are finding a suitable trainer and having to take your dog to the Netherlands to title him. http://www.knpv.nl/landelijk/info/481/lidmaatschap.html


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I dont think so.

there will be a couple people here and there working towards going to the Netherlands to title a dog or two though.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont think so.
> 
> there will be a couple people here and there working towards going to the Netherlands to title a dog or two though.


Its not exportable enough as a sport for people to take it up?


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Agree with Joby here.
Compare it to another sport, Campagne. There are hundreds of people training for the ringsports here in North America. Very few of them take the extra step and go compete in French ring in France. Fewer still modify their training just a little and go do Campagne. I would think that would be an easier jump to take than to make a serious attempt at KNPV.
To all those wanting to do KNPV, I wish you the best of luck, but I think those who actually do will be very small numbers.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Its not exportable enough as a sport for people to take it up?


although the KNPV is a sport, I dont think it is a sport in and of itself, the purpose of the program is not to have a competitive sport, it is to train and certify dogs mostly for resale. I do not think a high percentage of dogs even in Holland make a sport career out of KNPV.

The dog cultures of the 2 countries are far different I beleive. 

I do not think there is much interest at large in the USA in training and competing in KNPV. Sure there is some, but to what end? personal goals I think more than anything. The only place to even attempt to trial is overseas, and even though there are a good handful of people that are knowledgable about the program and the training, I dont think they are here to really promote KNPV as a sport for Americans. I also do not think that the average American dogsport person is really aware of what it might take to train and title a dog, or aware of all the methods it might take in said training, and to accomplish it in a serviceable time frame.

Again to what end? would it be done?..aside from satifying a personal goal?

What would be the other benefits? the cost alone to train here and travel to certify the dog, possibly more than once, would nullify profit margin on selling the dog, and if one was making it a sport "career" for the dog, several to many trips abroad would be required. 

I also think a similar type program might be a good thing for America in many respects, but dont really think it would work out really well, just because of how we are....LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

addition.

I was not meaning to imply that people that certify dogs and participate in the KNPV program are only doing so for profit, in case it read that way.

Just meant that the program itself, I think anyways, has been mostly used as a tool to breed, find, train and evaluate dogs that will be proficient dogs to be bought and sold and put into service, as working dogs, or as breeding dogs, or I suppose these days also for purchase for other reasons and for export.

this type of mentality I think is fairly different than that of the average American dogsport person, where competing in sport and titling is the actual goal in mind for most people...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> although the KNPV is a sport, I dont think it is a sport in and of itself, the purpose of the program is not to have a competitive sport, it is to train and certify dogs mostly for resale. I do not think a high percentage of dogs even in Holland make a sport career out of KNPV.
> 
> The dog cultures of the 2 countries are far different I beleive.
> 
> ...


Its a good solid program to measure your dogs by...I"m sure some of your dogs are decended from those lines....I don't know if people title a dog to make a profit or they are using it as a measuring stick to make sure their kennel is on track and to make sure that they are training their dogs properly. If your dog fails at getting his title something is wrong. You know? 

I just don't think inventing a new sport ever seems to pan out. I don't care what people do. I just don't think it usually works out. The established sports have a proven track record. Some of them have survived world wars.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> addition.
> 
> I was not meaning to imply that people that certify dogs and participate in the KNPV program are only doing so for profit, in case it read that way.
> 
> ...


 Oh I didn't see this post.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Your post didn't read to me like that at all! Not to worry 

You were right in your post tho. Even tho people call it a sport and there is competition enough to go around in the KNPV, at the end of the day the simple reason for training KNPV for the most people is to certify the dog and sell it into LE, MIL or any kind of working situation. 

As for profit made from a dog, there is little if any profit to be made in training KNPV dogs. It might seem to many that selling a trained KNPV dog for a lot of money at the end of its training is the main goal but trust me, most of us pay more then we actually get in return. You have to take care of the dogs every need for a period of approx 3 years, add to that xrays, shots, driving, personal time, housing and what have you not and you will see that there is hardly any profit margin in there at all. I guess that is where the sporting idea comes into play, we love to train and build up the dogs to sell them because its a great thing to do but we train with a purpose. In America I would say most train for points and recognition, there is a real sporting mentality there to compete, we have that here as well but with a much lower threshold since we plan to sell our dogs once it has gotten trialed and papered. 



Joby Becker said:


> addition.
> 
> I was not meaning to imply that people that certify dogs and participate in the KNPV program are only doing so for profit, in case it read that way.
> 
> ...


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I think its a good nice program like that. You train and titel the dogs and then sell them and get alitle bit of money back. So you can keep working new dogs, but no one can think that it is a profit.
If you wuld se what it cost in time and cost to train a dog to that level you wuld make aloot more mony just working on McDonalds thos houers


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Its a good solid program to measure your dogs by...I"m sure some of your dogs are decended from those lines....I don't know if people title a dog to make a profit or they are using it as a measuring stick to make sure their kennel is on track and to make sure that they are training their dogs properly. If your dog fails at getting his title something is wrong. You know?
> 
> I just don't think inventing a new sport ever seems to pan out. I don't care what people do. I just don't think it usually works out. The established sports have a proven track record. Some of them have survived world wars.


Ben. Trying to start KNPV in the USA would basically be almost like inventing a new sport here in many respects. There would be almost zero infrastructure to support it, very few decoys, very few people that know how to train for it, very little interest in it overall by most of the working dog folks., costs to hold trials would be fairly high for the return if held here,as would traveling to Holland to certify a dog, it would take huge investment of time and money from dedicated people that are interested in working together to get it off of the ground.

Get it up and running, I will check it out, when it comes to my area, within a 100 miles or so. 

Mondioring was started in the late 1980's and recognized in the 90's by the FCI. Dock diving in the late 90's, agility trials brought to the US in the 80's.

Dogsports with dogs biting, are just not a huge part of our culture here, and our country is very large and spread out. It takes alot of people participating to support a dogsport, if it is to become widespread.

If you look at biting dogsports here in the usa, the ones that are more popular on any major scale, are the ones where average people, with average dogs can have some success in, at the lower level. Judges pencils are often duller, and decoys and helpers are adjusting thier techniques to suit the level of competition in many cases.

The lower level of KNPV, is far different than the lower level of most other dogsports...there is no real "entry level" tier to stroke peoples egos and give people reassurances that they are not wasting thier time, either themselves, or with a subpar dog. 

I have to imagine that dogs are washed out quicker and without as much emotion, in Holland, in the KNPV program, once major flaws are seen that would lead one to believe that the dog is not going to be able to perform its intended work well, even if it is capable of getting titled, the end goal is not the title itself, but the sale of a servicable and capable dog, for the msot part.

Here in the USA, the sport is almost always the end goal, so if a dog can be titled, YAY!! if a worse dog can get titled, super YAY!! that just shows that with hard work and dedication even subpar dogs can get titled with good training, and makes the handle and trainer feel a greater sense of accomplishment..

can subpar dogs get titled in the KNPV, sure they can. But since the goal for most of them and the end use is not the sport, if they prove to be not competent for the end user, which is probably not a sport competitor, that is not the greatest business strategy.

Here in the US, there is a segment of working dog people that do breed, or train and sell dogs to be put into service, the measuring stick that those people use, is proficiency in the work they are doing, not a sport title.

The majority of real world working dog handlers, I would bet, do not even know the pedigrees of their dogs, nor do they care that much, if they can work they can work.


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Ben. Trying to start KNPV in the USA would basically be almost like inventing a new sport here in many respects. There would be almost zero infrastructure to support it, very few decoys, very few people that know how to train for it, very little interest in it overall by most of the working dog folks., costs to hold trials would be fairly high for the return if held here,as would traveling to Holland to certify a dog, it would take huge investment of time and money from dedicated people that are interested in working together to get it off of the ground.
> 
> Get it up and running, I will check it out, when it comes to my area, within a 100 miles or so.
> 
> ...


Pretty accurate, Joby.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I think our views are much simpler when it comes to dogs then it is for people in the US?

I buy a pup, I play around with it a bit, at 6 or 7 months (some go quicker, some later depending on the speed they develop, some dogs are quicker than others) I check for a solid bite and workability. Don't have either? Out you go... next! I do not get dogs to have pets, I get dogs to train and as soon as they are certified, they leave! Sure I have a pet dog that works, Caylinn is a pet but also a working dog but I want to breed her and keep her. She will be trailed for her PH1 but there is no pressure for me to do so quickly since I do not plan to sell her. Working dogs tho, they come and go, I don't get overly attached to them or think to long about it. They are here for a job and as soon as they get the papers for that job they are out the door.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Your post didn't read to me like that at all! Not to worry
> 
> You were right in your post tho. Even tho people call it a sport and there is competition enough to go around in the KNPV, at the end of the day the simple reason for training KNPV for the most people is to certify the dog and sell it into LE, MIL or any kind of working situation.
> 
> As for profit made from a dog, there is little if any profit to be made in training KNPV dogs. It might seem to many that selling a trained KNPV dog for a lot of money at the end of its training is the main goal but trust me, most of us pay more then we actually get in return. You have to take care of the dogs every need for a period of approx 3 years, add to that xrays, shots, driving, personal time, housing and what have you not and you will see that there is hardly any profit margin in there at all. I guess that is where the sporting idea comes into play, we love to train and build up the dogs to sell them because its a great thing to do but we train with a purpose. In America I would say most train for points and recognition, there is a real sporting mentality there to compete, we have that here as well but with a much lower threshold since we plan to sell our dogs once it has gotten trialed and papered.


I imagine for the people involved it is part of the culture, the everyday life, and is satisfying and a source of pride in most cases to be a contributing part of the organization, for the greater good of the breeds, as well as the country, and working dog scene worldwide. Knowing that the work you are putting into it, is going towards the greater good, and the dogs that are sold, are making a diference. 

I dont see that being a pillar of support for something similar, here in the USA. Ther entire structure of the KNPV program, is different. From the foundation, the execution, the purpose, and the motivations, when compared to the average IPO club here in the states, which is our most popular biting dogsport..


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I don't think any of the other dog sports are trying to teach a foundation that the dogs can use in later real life situations. They are trying to do sport...and have a good time and all that jazz. Its not about having a dog that can go on to be a security dog in a few years. They can also be taught habits you would not want your real world dog to be taught like walking backwards from badguys. Great for sport...not so great for personal protection or police or security.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't think any of the other dog sports are trying to teach a foundation that the dogs can use in later real life situations. They are trying to do sport...and have a good time and all that jazz. Its not about having a dog that can go on to be a security dog in a few years. They can also be taught habits you would not want your real world dog to be taught like walking backwards from badguys. Great for sport...not so great for personal protection or police or security.


there are also a qutie a few things that titled KNPV dogs learn that have to be retrained or untrained..I imagine.and things that have to be added, depending on what the job entails, and the protocols for it.

I dont know of any sport that works towards the goal of an average security dog in the USA, or for PP. There is a huge variance in "security" dogs and the protocols for use here, just as there is in attempting to define what a PP dog is or should be. Or for police or military service for that matter.

I have supplied "security" dogs to vendors before. And in some of those cases, biting or bitework, was not required at all.

There is little structure here, it is not like some other smaller countries, where the governments are invovled in either the sport itself, or the regulation of standards for certain things, and even if there are standards, they usage protocols often vary greatly from state to state, or county to county, or city to city, or organization to organization.

I also think that most of the sports can teach a decent "foundation" for real world applications, but that often times the ideal dogs for most people that train dogs to put into service, or security or even PP, that come from sport programs, are just that, dogs that have the "foundation", the upbringing, and foundation training, without much of the specialized training that is required to be successful competively in a sport. Most of the trainers prefer to work with dogs that are of a "cleaner" slate, and that will work well with thier specific training programs. And most are put into service or training for service, long before they would be capable of achieving a sport title or being competitive at higher level in dogsports..

Again the "measuring stick" is proficiency in the job itself, not getting a title in a sport, any sport, unless the job of the dog IS the sport, and most of the dogs that go into service, are given a foundation that works towards that service, with or without participation in any sport, or the earning of any titles or certificates, which is the bulk of dogs from what I know, the bulk of dogs used do not have titles of any kind, from any sport, as that form of measurement is irrelavent to performance.

Many dog are already working real jobs, at an age when they might just be starting to get really trained to attempt a sport career, and not even titled or certified at the entry levels.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben,if I was going to have a goal of providing dogs for real world service, I would build as much drive as possible for various objects, build hunt drive, expose dog to everything possible to work towards environmental confidence, would have dog climbing on everything, and do some foundation bitework, probably would not even work on an out command at all, and would not put much control into the dog either. I think raising a dog in this fashion, would be better for putting into training for service work, and could be more easily trained by a proficeint trainer, than any type of sport work would do for the dog.


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## Chuck Zang (May 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Ben,if I was going to have a goal of providing dogs for real world service, I would build as much drive as possible for various objects, build hunt drive, expose dog to everything possible to work towards environmental confidence, would have dog climbing on everything, and do some foundation bitework, probably would not even work on an out command at all, and would not put much control into the dog either. I think raising a dog in this fashion, would be better for putting into training for service work, and could be more easily trained by a proficient trainer, than any type of sport work would do for the dog.


I like this philosophy. The drive building and socialization (environmental and persons) needs to be emphasized early on to be most effective- at least from my limited experience.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Ben,if I was going to have a goal of providing dogs for real world service, I would build as much drive as possible for various objects, build hunt drive, expose dog to everything possible to work towards environmental confidence, would have dog climbing on everything, and do some foundation bitework, probably would not even work on an out command at all, and would not put much control into the dog either. I think raising a dog in this fashion, would be better for putting into training for service work, and could be more easily trained by a proficeint trainer, than any type of sport work would do for the dog.


 I can do that for sure.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> there are also a qutie a few things that titled KNPV dogs learn that have to be retrained or untrained..I imagine.and things that have to be added, depending on what the job entails, and the protocols for it.
> 
> I dont know of any sport that works towards the goal of an average security dog in the USA, or for PP. There is a huge variance in "security" dogs and the protocols for use here, just as there is in attempting to define what a PP dog is or should be. Or for police or military service for that matter.
> 
> ...


 So when you say "cleaner slate" alot of working dog trainers don't even want KNPV dogs they would rather just have a dog with very basic drives built up like hunt drive and the strong desire to bite? They would rather just mold the dog to their specific needs? Maybe its my imagination or bias but I was under the impression alot of people were using titled KNPV dogs now.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> So when you say "cleaner slate" alot of working dog trainers don't even want KNPV dogs they would rather just have a dog with very basic drives built up like hunt drive and the strong desire to bite? They would rather just mold the dog to their specific needs? Maybe its my imagination or bias but I was under the impression alot of people were using titled KNPV dogs now.


Depends on what you mean by alot......

It depends on the people that are getting the dogs, and who is doing the actual training, what the dogs will be doing, and the availability of dogs as to whether or not they would be using or prefer to use titled dogs of any sort, or KNPV titled dogs.

Good dogs are good dogs. Many people prefer KNPV type dogs, and/or like what the overall program produces in the way of stock.

I dont have any specific figures to draw from, but looking at the KNPV only, the numbers of actual KNPV titled dogs being used in service worldwide, pales in comparison to the number of dogs used that are produced from KNPV lines...and also KNPV lined Dutch bred dogs are but a fraction of the total dogs in usage.

I think that the availablity of titled KNPV dogs is a very limiting factor as to requiring that dogs be titled, for most people. The Dutch obviously may have different requirements.


Again no figures here, but how many dogs get titled in KNPV per year even? 1000-2000? 

How many titled KNPV dogs get sold to the USA in a year? 100? 200? 400? 500? that I dont know either.

Ben I have no clue how many dogs are in all of the various service work jobs, worldwide, but there are lots of different uses for working dogs, police K9 being but one of them.

How many dogs would you guess are working police K9's just in the USA right now?? 

Fukk if I know, but what? a guess? 

30 THOUSAND???, possibly many more would be my guess.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

There are about 6000 members in the KNPV worldwide, say the average age of a dog when he gets his PH1 cert, is 3 yrs old. If EVERY person that is a member worldwide, certifies 1 dog, that would work out to about 2000 per year on average, of certified dogs per year. and I doubt the numbers are that high realistically, probably 1/2 that, again just a guess.

again the vast majority of KNPV type dogs that get put into service worldwide are non-KNPV titled dogs.

I am out on a limb here, no KNPV expert or working dog expert either.....

just guessing.....but I dont think i am talking out of my a-ss either.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> There are about 6000 members in the KNPV worldwide, say the average age of a dog when he gets his PH1 cert, is 3 yrs old. If EVERY person that is a member worldwide, certifies 1 dog, that would work out to about 2000 per year on average, of certified dogs per year. and I doubt the numbers are that high realistically, probably 1/2 that, again just a guess.
> 
> again the vast majority of KNPV type dogs that get put into service worldwide are non-KNPV titled dogs.
> 
> ...


 Good point I didn't even factor in how many people are doing the KNPV program.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

add to that the number of dogs in service in other countries as police, sercurity, plus all of the other functions that working service dogs, including other government agencies and the military, and I am sure the total numbers are staggering.

I would bet money that a very low % of real world working dogs are tited in ANY sport, another guess...but what? 1-2% less? more?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben I think we have talked about this "measuring stick" thing before.

a dog does not have to be titled to be a good dog. a good dog does not have to compete in anything to be a good dog, a good dog does not even have to be actively working to be a good dog.

a good dog is a good dog.


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## Kurt Villiger (May 22, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> ... that would work out to about 2000 per year on average, of certified dogs per year. and I doubt the numbers are that high realistically, probably 1/2 that, again just a guess.


 A very good guess, IIRC.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Ben I think we have talked about this "measuring stick" thing before.
> 
> a dog does not have to be titled to be a good dog. a good dog does not have to compete in anything to be a good dog, a good dog does not even have to be actively working to be a good dog.
> 
> a good dog is a good dog.


 How else am I suppose to boost my ego if I don't show the dog in some way? O


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben... LOL
dont take that the wrong way.

I am for all dogsports, and do believe that without them, the state of working dog breeds would be dismal.

I also think showing and titling dogs can be used as a good measuring stick for dogs.

I can also understand why people would require titling in dogs they want to purchase, want to breed to, or get a puppy from.

I no way shape or form am I against working dog sports of any kind really.

But a title in and of itself, on a dog tells me more about the person that titled the dog, than it does the dog itself.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Ben... LOL
> dont take that the wrong way.
> 
> I am for all dogsports, and do believe that without them, the state of working dog breeds would be dismal.
> ...


+1


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> I also think showing and titling dogs can be used as a good measuring stick for dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> But a title in and of itself, on a dog tells me more about the person that titled the dog, than it does the dog itself.


:???: Is this like saying it the exact same only completely different?


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Keith Jenkins said:


> :???: Is this like saying it the exact same only completely different?


 
LOL, I think the titling shows the dog and handler have a mutual understanding (to some degree) of the training protocol to execute the exercises. Some tough dogs require a different type of trainer/handler and softer dogs likewise, I believe most dogs titled aren't really showing the dog, but both, HOWEVER a dog to go through the basic protocol for most protection sports and are titled could be a measuring stick for some, but what are they measuring.....all it tells me is the dog understood what needed to be done....

A measuring stick I do agree with and see, but in a different light....it tells me the dog has some obedience, it bites, can track and use its nose (in some sports), this could be a baseline for some to start looking for what they need instead of looking at dogs outside of sports....just a thought


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Joby Becker
> I also think showing and titling dogs can be used as a good measuring stick for dogs.
> 
> But a title in and of itself, on a dog tells me more about the person that titled the dog, than it does the dog itself.





Keith Jenkins said:


> :???: Is this like saying it the exact same only completely different?



do you mean it is is contradictory?

I suppose it could be taken that way.

If I said that I think an employer using a written test for applicants could be a good measuring stick to use, does that mean that I would be implying that I think that the person that scores the highest should get the job? or that they would be trustworthy or competent, and that the employer should not do a background check, drug screen, maybe see their portfolio or past work, or have them do some sort of physical test, or watch them using certain tools? (depending on the job)..and maybe put the applicants though an interview or two, beforing hiring them based on their intial written test results?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I don't care what discipline a dog and handler choose to pursue a dog has to have biddability or all you're ever going to have is a dog you can stick behind a fence and feed with a slingshot.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> do you mean it is is contradictory?
> 
> I suppose it could be taken that way.
> 
> If I said that I think an employer using a written test for applicants could be a good measuring stick to use, does that mean that I would be implying that I think that the person that scores the highest should get the job? or that they would be trustworthy or competent, and that the employer should not do a background check, drug screen, maybe see their portfolio or past work, or have them do some sort of physical test, or watch them using certain tools? (depending on the job)..and maybe put the applicants though an interview or two, beforing hiring them based on their intial written test results?


Stop with the anthropomorphism....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Stop with the anthropomorphism....


it is not anthropomorphism Keith, it is a comparative statement analysis of what I wrote to further explain what I meant.



Keith Jenkins said:


> I don't care what discipline a dog and handler choose to pursue a dog has to have biddability or all you're ever going to have is a dog you can stick behind a fence and feed with a slingshot.


biddability means different things to different people. But I agree if a dog has NO biddability, you will not be able to do much with it.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

So in a round about way the conclusiion is that this topic of titles in not as black and white as we would like it to be.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> So in a round about way the conclusiion is that this topic of titles in not as black and white as we would like it to be.


I would vote yes on that one more than once, I would risk voter fraud even.

+2

it is black and white though, in a way.. the dog is titled or not, that is what I would say you know for sure, when you see a title behind a dogs name, that the dog is titled, or supposed to be anyhow.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> There are about 6000 members in the KNPV worldwide, say the average age of a dog when he gets his PH1 cert, is 3 yrs old. If EVERY person that is a member worldwide, certifies 1 dog, that would work out to about 2000 per year on average, of certified dogs per year. and I doubt the numbers are that high realistically, probably 1/2 that, again just a guess.
> 
> again the vast majority of KNPV type dogs that get put into service worldwide are non-KNPV titled dogs.
> 
> ...



I would say maximum of 500 dogs per year go to trial and that is stretching it wayyyyyy out there. They would be trialing for PH1, Object Guard and PH2, the lions share being PH1.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I would say maximum of 500 dogs per year go to trial and that is stretching it wayyyyyy out there. They would be trialing for PH1, Object Guard and PH2, the lions share being PH1.





thanks for chiming in, I thought it was a little higher, but knew it was not a huge number.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> thanks for chiming in, I thought it was a little higher, but knew it was not a huge number.


No problem! I was probably being very giving when I said 500 tho, realistically speaking its probably more like half that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> No problem! I was probably being very giving when I said 500 tho, realistically speaking its probably more like half that.


so what then 50 certified dogs to USA in a year? or more like half that?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> so what then 50 certified dogs to USA in a year? or more like half that?


Certainly not over that number would be my guess? Its not an easy guess to make, not every certified dog is cut out to be a civil dog. It would depend on demand from the US as well. 

Not sure how to explain this correctly. As a dog trainer I do not go out there and advertise my dog as being for sale. The interested party comes to me and inquires about my dog, not vice versa. The police visits trainings and trial days often when they are in need of dogs and inquire from there on out or they might phone around, asking if there are any dogs that they might be interested in and it works out from there. Dogtraders come to trialdays and competition days as well to check out whats on the field, how does it look and would it be interesting for them to make an offer for the dog... there is also a lot of mouth to mouth advertising going around where information can be gathered for suitable dogs. 

Example: Police in my area is on the look out for 8 dogs right now. They visited a while back and checked what was on the field after calling our club to see if there were any dogs available they might like to buy. At that time they were informed of 2 dogs, 1 that would be suited, 1 that might be interesting. Happens to be my Robbie was one of the dogs. Robbie got sold and is leaving here after summer trials first week of July (bar the xrays that still have to be made but they are fine since I had him xrayed for myself a year ago), the other dog is not certain, they want to see how that dog develops a bit more and see what he does at Fall trials. 

That is pretty much how it works here in my experiance....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Certainly not over that number would be my guess? Its not an easy guess to make, not every certified dog is cut out to be a civil dog. It would depend on demand from the US as well.
> 
> Not sure how to explain this correctly. As a dog trainer I do not go out there and advertise my dog as being for sale. The interested party comes to me and inquires about my dog, not vice versa. The police visits trainings and trial days often when they are in need of dogs and inquire from there on out or they might phone around, asking if there are any dogs that they might be interested in and it works out from there. Dogtraders come to trialdays and competition days as well to check out whats on the field, how does it look and would it be interesting for them to make an offer for the dog... there is also a lot of mouth to mouth advertising going around where information can be gathered for suitable dogs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation from your perspective. sounds about what I was thinking it would, in regards to titled dogs being puchased.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Don't people around the world use alot of the brood bitches and stud dogs from KNPV. Even if they aren't buying the titled dogs they are buying the pups or backing their bitches into them even if they have to use A.I. to do it.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: Non-Sanctioned KNPV Yearly stats.*

Someone mentioned yearly titles, this is running about 500 PH 1 titles per year right now.

More information, including recent stats:

http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch8.pdf


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Don't people around the world use alot of the brood bitches and stud dogs from KNPV. Even if they aren't buying the titled dogs they are buying the pups or backing their bitches into them even if they have to use A.I. to do it.


depends again on what you mean by ALOT...

as I said before I imagine that the number of puppies bought and non titled dogs bought are much higher in numbers, this would include raising them, or putting into service, or using them for breeding, or for re-sale.


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