# Bouvier x Mal cross?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I was just wondering what one would look like and figured someone here would have a picture or link.

And, not that it would be an improvement over either, but Im somewhat surprised that you dont see more working line hybrids like Bouv-mal, or GSD-rottie, etc


thanks


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> I was just wondering what one would look like and figured someone here would have a picture or link.
> 
> And, not that it would be an improvement over either, but Im somewhat surprised that you dont see more working line hybrids like Bouv-mal, or GSD-rottie, etc
> 
> ...


To give an idea... Both are Mali/Bouvier cross. Do not know the dogs. Topic of conversation came up last week and these pics where sent to me as example of what happens when you cross them. 

male



female


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> To give an idea... Both are Mali/Bouvier cross. Do not know the dogs. Topic of conversation came up last week and these pics where sent to me as example of what happens when you cross them.
> 
> male
> 
> ...


 
Im caught in between UGLY and COOL looking LOL


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Im caught in between UGLY and COOL looking LOL


I'm still stuck on scared and I've had these for a week now! :lol:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Those are some ugly sumbitches. Do they work?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> Those are some ugly sumbitches. Do they work?


Not that I know.... They give ugly a whole new dimension to explore, don't they :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

If they work, they get pretty in their own special way...


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

definitely nothing but ugly! I couldn't have that around the house, but that is just me. My dad always said a pretty horse doesn't eat any more than a dud.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> If they work, they get pretty in their own special way...


Very true... still will take effort to look beyond the ugly in this case tho :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> If they work, they get pretty in their own special way...


Indeed.

I think that top one is gorgeous. I'm normally not the snuggling type with my dogs but something about that dog makes me want to snatch it up and hug it.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I guess I could live with the male, he has a reasonable appearance, he looks okay in a scruffy pet kind of way...the female tho? Clippers! That is all I can say, I'd shave her before she ever entered this house...No matter how good she works....just DAMN!!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

You have any more pictures of them? Was this cross done on purpose?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> You have any more pictures of them? Was this cross done on purpose?


From what I understand both were accidents. Nope this was all I was sent.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh? They're not litter mates? Interesting.


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## Leah Hein (Mar 19, 2013)

Oh, that's just wrong. Just goes to show that pretty parents don't guarantee pretty offspring... in any species.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I've got a Dutch Shepherd x Airedale cross that I am holding onto for my bf. He was an accident too and I have no idea what the other pups looked like or what they work like. This is a cool dog though - I am currently training him for a PDC as well as drug detection.

The cross is the large dog on the left. He's around 75-80 pounds of scruff.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

What's he like? Does he favor one breed over the other? 

Cross breeds are interesting to me. My mastiff is a cross breed and honestly my favorite dog of all time. Her "look" isn't one for everyone but for what she is, this dog is an absolutely stunning specimen and on many levels.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't have any experience with Airedales and very little with Dutchies so I don't have a lot to go off of.
Physically, he has the rectangle head of the Airedale and his coat is scruffy, longer in some areas than others. He's kind of a weird looking dog to be honest. I think he's cute cause he has a beard and he works his ass off for me. LOL.

As far as working, he has tons of drive although I haven't yet pushed to see the defensive side. He's still young, 15 months old, so I'm interested to see what he turns into as he matures. He's got a really nice nose and can take a correction without suffering in drive or getting soft. He's social but can be aloof/independent. He's super confident and he's a really fun dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I doubt you have any video of him but if you do I'd love to see it (doesn't need to be anything special). Just interested. He sounds pretty cool and the cross seems like it could produce a fairly viable working dog.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I'll get some videos together and post them here.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I like the male... something serious in his gaze and I think the scruffy look is cute.

Friend has a Golden Retriever x Cane Corso from an oops litter - her male GR and the neighbour's CC. The dog looks like a black Lab mix... 55 lbs of bounce, happiness and tons of drive, no idea where that came from, but she is very cool little dog and unlike either of the parent dogs.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I guess working people DO care about looks haha.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I think there is a picture of my bouvier x malinois cross on my website. Go to dogs for sale, then click on dogs sold. It was a big black dog named rickson.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

http://www.loganhauskennels.com/dogs_sold


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

Someone on craigslist here was trying to unload mal/rottie puppies (oops litter)....fat little rottie pup body....malinois face....it was hideous(ly adorable and will probably grow up to look like a bag of mismatched dog parts)


Friend of mine had a bouv/dobie....oops litter from not the best er "quality" dogs in the first place (pet shop dogs)...I'll see if I can find picture, I swear the dog's legs didn't even match....heart of gold though, sweetest dog.


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## Charles Saul (Dec 12, 2008)




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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

There was a litter of purebred Bouviers in the USA a couple of years ago. The breeding was totally unrelated for (maybe 30?) generations. Some ended up fawn with really wiry hair. I love the look but nobody would guess they were purebred unless they knew the old type of Bouvier with less hair.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ben Thompson said:


> I guess working people DO care about looks haha.


Oh heck yeah, although most will deny it all day long. LOL

I like the look of both of the pups. The first one looks like a wired haired DS and the second one kind of like an overdone Laekenois to me. And I like that scruffy look, if they worked I'd feed one.


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## Leah Hein (Mar 19, 2013)

mike suttle said:


> I think there is a picture of my bouvier x malinois cross on my website. Go to dogs for sale, then click on dogs sold. It was a big black dog named rickson.


He's cute! Looking at the first 2 dogs in this thread, I was just struck by how neither of them are half as good looking as their parents likely were, but they are cute in a scruffy kind of way. The male has the bouvier gaze IMO, and would benefit from a darker brindle. I'm liking the black bouv crosses here.

As for a dog made of a mixed bag of parts, my sister-in-law just got herself a mutt. He's a mix of several different things and somehow managed to look like a corgi with thick legs, big feet, a flag tail and a puggle head. He doesn't have corgi, pug or beagle in him at all... go figure.


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## Leah Hein (Mar 19, 2013)

Carolyn Herle said:


> There was a litter of purebred Bouviers in the USA a couple of years ago. The breeding was totally unrelated for (maybe 30?) generations. Some ended up fawn with really wiry hair. I love the look but nobody would guess they were purebred unless they knew the old type of Bouvier with less hair.


That's what I noticed right off the bat with the dogs on your website. After having a show-line bouv it's strange to see how wiry/short their hair is. We had a book years ago that did show that style but it was a black and white picture clearly from a very long time ago and it suggested that this was an original type bouvier. The implication was that they no longer exist. ](*,)
Gus was never happier than when he was shaved...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

There's a rottie cross gsd goes to the schutzhund club in wales, it's pretty cool


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Leah Hein said:


> That's what I noticed right off the bat with the dogs on your website. After having a show-line bouv it's strange to see how wiry/short their hair is. We had a book years ago that did show that style but it was a black and white picture clearly from a very long time ago and it suggested that this was an original type bouvier. The implication was that they no longer exist. ](*,)
> Gus was never happier than when he was shaved...


I only shave the heads a bit to clean them up once in a while. It sure it great to just run a slicker brush through a bouvier --taken a few minutes every couple of weeks!

Carolyn


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Oh heck yeah, although most will deny it all day long. LOL
> 
> I like the look of both of the pups. The first one looks like a wired haired DS and the second one kind of like an overdone Laekenois to me. And I like that scruffy look, if they worked I'd feed one.


 Yeah I think there is a reason they picked the Dutch Shepherd with the smoother coat and not the one that looks like a giant fuzz ball.


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## Leah Hein (Mar 19, 2013)

Carolyn Herle said:


> I only shave the heads a bit to clean them up once in a while. It sure it great to just run a slicker brush through a bouvier --taken a few minutes every couple of weeks!
> 
> Carolyn


Oh don't rub it in :lol: His fluff was such a PITA. He wasn't the only one who loved it when he was shaved. One good run through tall grass and I'd be picking out seed pods for days.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Yeah I think there is a reason they picked the Dutch Shepherd with the smoother coat and not the one that looks like a giant fuzz ball.


Maybe so. For me it was his gorgeous face with that wild ass sticking out everywhere hair. Kind of like the physical look at a mood or something mental. Either way, I dig him. \\/


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Matt Grosch said:


> I was just wondering what one would look like and figured someone here would have a picture or link.
> 
> And, not that it would be an improvement over either, but Im somewhat surprised that you dont see more working line hybrids like Bouv-mal, or GSD-rottie, etc
> 
> ...


 Why water down the quality? Then who wants something you know nothing about the genetics? I've owned and bred Bouviers...love them just the way they are...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Why water down the quality? Then who wants something you know nothing about the genetics? I've owned and bred Bouviers...love them just the way they are...


What are Bouviers like? Are they easy to train?


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> What are Bouviers like? Are they easy to train?


Depends on the individual dog and for sure the bloodlines. They do have an independence and sometimes just want to do a little bit of their own version of how they think an exercise should be performed.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

why not just buy a laekenois?


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Carolyn Herle said:


> There was a litter of purebred Bouviers in the USA a couple of years ago. The breeding was totally unrelated for (maybe 30?) generations. Some ended up fawn with really wiry hair. I love the look but nobody would guess they were purebred unless they knew the old type of Bouvier with less hair.


I really love the looks of those old-school shorter/wire-haired Bouviers. I've seen pics of a few fawn Bouviers that were interesting looking dogs.



Alice Bezemer said:


> To give an idea... Both are Mali/Bouvier cross. Do not know the dogs. Topic of conversation came up last week and these pics where sent to me as example of what happens when you cross them.
> 
> male
> 
> ...


I think the male looks great; like Kadi said it looks like a wire-haired Dutch Shepherd. The female looks fine too. As long as the structure was fine, that would be perfect. I live in WI; let her hair grow out in the winter, just shave her in the summer. Done. If they worked well, I see no problem with either of them. I think the female (the one with the more unorthodox aesthetics) would grow on me even more, although she looks just fine as-is in my opinion.

Maybe I've just got a thing for ugly dogs? I dunno, if I came across a dog like that and she worked well and had a nice temperament, I'd be totally fine with having one. I like wire-coats, they can be pretty functional, and I've seen some Bouvier that were pretty handsome when shaved down for the summer. I think if a dog from that cross, ugly or not, starting kicking butt and taking names it would probably become a lot more beautiful to people. It should at any rate.

-Cheers


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Carolyn Herle said:


> Depends on the individual dog and for sure the bloodlines. They do have an independence and sometimes just want to do a little bit of their own version of how they think an exercise should be performed.


 They must be hard to work with at least in Schutzhund. All that precision is needed.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Carolyn Herle said:


> Depends on the individual dog and for sure the bloodlines. They do have an independence and sometimes just want to do a little bit of their own version of how they think an exercise should be performed.


 I agree...mine were something like a GSD, independent and very protective. A breed well worth trying if you go with working lines and like different!


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> They must be hard to work with at least in Schutzhund. All that precision is needed.


They can do extremely well in schutzhund. The good ones relish a great fight with the helper; the sleeve is not their reward. 
Tom Rose did mention in one of his writings that his Bouvier was his favorite schutzhund dog. Unfortunately there are few top level trainers that work with Bouviers.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

It's waay beyond ugly, ugly just lost it's meaning.


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## Laura Briggs (Jan 11, 2011)

I really love Bouvs! However, I almost never see them where I live in SW Ontario. I kept seeing a really lovely young male Bouv at the conservation area that we frequent so I loitered a bit in the parking lot to ask the owner where she bought him. It turns out that she has been a Bouv owner for more than 30 years and has always bought from a tiny breeder in Northern Quebec (unfortunately, no website).


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

And what would be the offspring of such a mix? Is this going to be a one-off or is it going to represent the best of both breeds :roll:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> It's waay beyond ugly, ugly just lost it's meaning.


Fugly comes to mind


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> And what would be the offspring of such a mix? Is this going to be a one-off or is it going to represent the best of both breeds :roll:


Mightn't that depend on the dogs being used and how they were used? I could see somebody using two complimentary dogs in a mix like that, either for a one-off for their own uses (it probably happens more often than some think), or to blend back into a program. I could see using it to revitalize a program or if you're talking about KNPV dogs I could see them being a bit less averse to crossing those two if the person knew their lines, the dogs were complementary, or maybe even their line of Bouvs or Mals had Mals or Bouvs in the bloodline already, or the dogs a/o their lines had a lot of similar traits. A lot of what-ifs, but I could see it being at least hypothetically possible. I could also see somebody trying to sell an F1 cross as having the best of both breeds. Still, it does not seem unlikely you might have some nice dogs from that mix, intentional or otherwise.

Also, is mightn't really a word?!!!

-Cheers


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> I could also see somebody trying to sell an F1 cross as having the best of both breeds. Still, it does not seem unlikely you might have some nice dogs from that mix, intentional or otherwise.


I've got an F2 of something else. With the right planning you can end up with one hell of a dog and have remarkable consistency throughout the litter. At the time there was about 30+ years of combined efforts behind the breeding that produced what I got. 

I don't know enough about the Bouv or Dutch Dogs to know how reiliable an F1 would be in terms of producitng working traits of any substance. It'd have to be one of those wait and see things I suppose. F1, depending upon how the litter turned out, back into one of the parent breeds might be an option. It's already been stated by those who know of or have had such crosses that they were not done intentionally so I doubt anyone will ever know. I guess we probably don't need to either as it seems those with either breed are pretty happy with what they have.


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Fugly comes to mind


You have to come up with a better designer name than that to command big bucks for the rare F1 hybrids! LOL!


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I'm still stuck on scared and I've had these for a week now! :lol:


Okay, so Bouvier to Malinois yields a Laekenois. Nice.:mrgreen:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The black Newfoundland was very often lazy compared with the white and black Newfoundland (Landseer) and in the 1990s they crossed both breeds. Over here then is the problem of what to call them??

They were known as black Landseers as I remember and nothing really became of it as I remember.

Heinrich Binder of the Tierspital Zürich informed us in a seminary that the quickest way to alter a negative trait in a breed was to introduce another breed, similar, but without the unwished for physical attributes.

Physical hereditary traits are easier (seen) than mental traits and much easier to assess.

Does anyone know of a breed being bred into another breed to enhance the mental traits and can report of outcomes?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, but not for the purpose of enhancing mental traits but rather to reduce the high incidence of HD in a particular breed. It worked.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The black Newfoundland was very often lazy compared with the white and black Newfoundland (Landseer) and in the 1990s they crossed both breeds. Over here then is the problem of what to call them??
> 
> They were known as black Landseers as I remember and nothing really became of it as I remember.
> 
> ...


yes, lots of breeds contain other breeds as their foundation. Many of which are added into a breed for mental characteristics.

The issue is that since everyone is concerned about purity, and official pedigree paperwork, it is not often that studbooks are opened back up on a large scale, although that does not mean that individual breeders may not go back to one or more of the foundation breeds, or hybrids of those breeds on a smaller scale...and then bury them back into a couple few generations of the purebreed. A rule of thumb is after about 3 generations to bury the outcrosses into the purebreed..

it is a shame this is frowned upon by so many, all in the interest of "purity"...

this is done in lots of breeds, probably not so much in the older more established working breeds, though..


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Does anyone know of a breed being bred into another breed to enhance the mental traits and can report of outcomes?


Not mental traits (although it probably helps with that too...) But the LUA Dalmatians are one that comes to mind for health. Lots of controversy, but it works :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Not mental traits (although it probably helps with that too...) But the LUA Dalmatians are one that comes to mind for health. Lots of controversy, but it works :wink:



The Basenji comes to mind also. It was a project in the 80s where a group went to Africa and brought back pure but unregistered tribal hunting dogs. It was supposed to get rid of certain health problems but created more if I recall correctly. Those African dogs are also responsible for the addition of Brindle to the standards.
I don't think it raised the stink that the Dal x Pointer did though.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Yes, but not for the purpose of enhancing mental traits but rather to reduce the high incidence of HD in a particular breed. It worked.


Cam you quote how and in what percentage?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Cam you quote how and in what percentage?


The starting point of x rayed dogs (not all dogs from entire litters were tested) all were with varying degrees of hip dysplasia. In 4 generations the transition moved considerably showing that all evaluated dogs have a hip conformation within ranges of normal to excellent with those that were done using PennHip came back with ratings falling within the 90th % percentile for the breed.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

In that case I wont disturb you...


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