# Insects...



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Curious what people like for:

Fleas & Ticks

Mosquitos

Flies (on ears)


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Fleas and ticks - not much of a problem here 
Mosquitoes - my dogs are hairy enough to not be botherd much by them
Blackflies and deerflies - Absorbine "Supershield"
ear biting flies - "SWAT" - I like the old pink stuff better than the clear as it seems to stay on better even if it looks gross.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

At first reading I thought the question was going to be about eating insects. The way my pup Trooper craps cricket legs and cicadia wings, I think they make up a large part of his diet. 
Frontline + and heartguard.
No problems with flies on the ears. No idea why though.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

So Frontline for fleas and ticks. 
Supershield and SWAT for flies and such.

Great feedback.
THanks,


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I've always used, and had good luck with, Frontline for fleas/ticks. Don't have a problem with flies, but when we take the dogs hiking or whatever, I put "Flys Off" spray on them to help repel insects. I use 1% ivermectin for heartworm prevention, in case they do get bitten by an 'infected' mosquito


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Is heartworm a serious threat? Hate to give anyone (dog, human) something they don't need.

EDIT: Just did a little Google on that. Pretty serious and everywhere.

So Ivermectin and Heartguard for heartworm?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Ivermectin is the active ingredient in Heartgard. It's cheaper than buying hw preventative from the vet, but you have to know how to dose it properly.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

OK so for 1 dog, not worth the bother / risk of the dosage, etc? 

Although I've worked in trauma & dialysis units and have degrees in biology and chemistry, I like the thought of a single pill and walk away.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Mod comment:
Off-label use instructions not posted here. Thanks.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Is this a once a year thing? Also, is it a lot cheaper this way?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I dont have much faith in the Ivomec drops, but lots of people seem to do it so I guess its OK.

I just buy heartgard. It is a once a MONTH thing, and yes very important. IMO the convenience of giving my dog a treat once a month for $80/year is fine (I pay $40 for 6 months of heartgard at my vet).

FrontLine Combo (maybe called FrontLine Plus in the US?) for fleas/ticks.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Hey Mike,

Thanks for the coments. Curious what the hesitation is about the Ivomec drops? Should be the same unless the balance of the Heartguard tablet is some delivery mechanism or potency enhancer, etc.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Mod edit: Your vet can give you instructions.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

This is a great idea, but shelf life, even refridgerated, is maybe suspect. Not a problem if it's available in smaller doses.

Where do you get the stuff?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah, that's why I said theoretically. I wouldn't keep a bottle for more than a few years, but it's still cheaper that way. 

I get it from Tractor Supply Co.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I know a ton of people will disagree, its just my personal feelings about it. I dont feel comfortable giving my dogs a small squirt of liquid intended for cattle on their tongue when the same company that makes Ivomec produces a dog specific product (HeartGard) and does not list Ivomec as a dog appropriate product. I know, I know, its about the money bla bla bla. I just don't feel comfortable with it. At <$7/month/dog I dont really have a problem buying a conveniently packaged easy to dispense product designed for dogs.

Also I think that Ivomec Plus is supposed to not be appropriate for dogs, don't remember exactly, but if you do go that route at least make sure you buy the right stuff.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I wasn't comfortable with the Ivomec for a long time. I use it every 14 days per my vets' recommendation for (almost) complete worming. It saves me $810 per year.

I use Frontline Plus as needed. Trapping feral cats and getting my neighbors to stop feeding the cats has been more effective flea control though! I haven't needed to use Frontline Plus yet this year.

We don't have problems with flies. I have some DE I would dust on the ears if there was a problem.


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Flies[/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]*"For house dogs this is not a major problem. But for kennel dogs a terrible thing. Here is a simple way to get keep it down with out using harsh chemicals. I put neem oil on the dogs ears where the files bite. They hate this stuff. It is what is used in natural pesticides. It is totally safe and also helps the skin. You can get it at local high end health food store or order at this site. Very effective.*[/FONT]​ 
*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Also crap managment is key. This is breeding ground for flies. Here is how I do it. I pick up twice a day. Sometimes 3 times. I know most don't but if you can do it at least twice during the summer you are better off. When you pick up take the crap to big bucket. Add a tablespoon of Outdoor Bleach and some water. Flies wont come near it with the clorox on it. Then when you dump it put lyme over top it each time. Then cover with small amount of dirt. No odor and no flies. Everyone is a lot happier.[/FONT]"*





[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Fleas[/FONT]​ 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]*"There is a variety of ways to get rid of them. I have a friend that has some good dogs. They would be great if he kept the fleas under control better. Here is what I have found that works well. *[/FONT]​ 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]*First off. Make your dogs bedding of Cedar shavings. Not flea friendly. Second get your dog bathed with good flea shampoo. Not cheap stuff but high quality. Add a table spoon neem oil extract and two tablespoons of neem oil. *[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]*Start at the head and work back. If you got a major problem add one tenth of cc of Ivomec to the shampoo you are using. Your dog will be flea free after this effort. *[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]*Now give you dog regular dose of Ivomec and give him 5 drops of neem oil extract in bread ball. Spray down the kennel area good with outdoor bleach first then spray down using dog safe flea killing spray. You will be flea free."*[/FONT]



Source: http://www.southernbulldogs.com





Andy.​


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

great stuff, Andy!


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Just spoke with Merial Veterinary Tech Support. Merial makes Ivomec. They acknowledged that many people give dogs the injectible cattle formulation (orally to the dogs). They acknowledged it seems to work fine. Same active ingredient as in Heartguard. Don't mis-understand, they did not at all advocate anyone do this. They just acknowledged that people do this successfully.

The problem is the dosage. It's concentrated in cattle formulation, and lots of people get it wrong. Too much can kill or cause permanent problems.

Anne, your vet did the calculation for you, right? Are you using the cattle formulation?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Anne, your vet did the calculation for you, right? Are you using the cattle formulation?


Yes to both. There are 2 dosages. 1 is for heartworm only, the other is for intestinal parasites also. I use the higher dose. I don't feel comfortable posting online what the dose is. Most vets are happy enough to tell you.



> The problem is the dosage. It's concentrated in cattle formulation, and lots of people get it wrong. Too much can kill or cause permanent problems.


That's exactly right. The dose of ivermectin is measured in micrograms. The 1% solution makes it possible to measure at home, but mistakes could be awful! 

Some dogs are more sensitive than others. Some breeds will die from Ivermectin. One of my dogs is tired and not-quite-right the day after getting Ivomec or Heartgard. It's mild and the average pet owner would never notice. The vets (3) think it is no cause for concern, but I always worry about it!


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Thank you for your insights Anne. Obviously if a person is careful with the dosage, you're good to go.

Curious, what do you use to measure such small quantities? I imagine a syringe?


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

http://www.totalpetsupply.com/index..._id/5075.htm?gclid=CKqw1eqB9o0CFRjBWAodpknXLg

Anyone seen this? Looks like a season's supply for $17. Tablets, not treats. What am I missing?


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Interceptor for Heartworm protection, and K-9 Advantix for fleas. I used to use Frontline.......but that company pissed me off, so I dont use their products anymore.


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

BTW - Let me show you what Frontline will do to a leather couch....


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

!Yikes! There should be a warning label for that!!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> http://www.totalpetsupply.com/index....FRjBWAodpknXLg
> 
> Anyone seen this? Looks like a season's supply for $17. Tablets, not treats. What am I missing?


I can't get that site to come up right now. I am wary of buying products like this online. There have been counterfeit Heartgard and Frontline sold online. 

The tablets are for dogs with a suspected beef allergy.

There isn't a "season" for heartworm treatment - it needs to be done year-round.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Update:

Merial sells pet rated Ivomec (Heartgard) to vets only in US / Canada. Apparently Canadians and / or Australians can sell into US without a prescription.

The "generic" products like from Total Pet Supply are coming from Canada and Australia, and are NOT made my Merial, but "have same active ingredient" and the other stuff can vary... Not encouraging.

Could be good, but why risk it?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> There isn't a "season" for heartworm treatment - it needs to be done year-round.


Actually, in many parts of the country, there IS a heartworm 'season.' In order for heartworm larvae to survive and be transmitted to the dog when a mosquito carrying them bites the dog, the outside temperature MUST remain higher than 57 degrees Fahrenheit for at least 30 consecutive days and nights. If the temperature drops below 57 degrees, even for just one day, the larvae cannot be passed from mosquito to host. In Michigan, I imagine they get a good amount of the year where it's below 57 degrees for 30 consecutive days!  :lol:


I posted the dosage for heartworm prevention only, in message #9. Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable giving it every 2 weeks. Why would you want to, if your dog doesn't need to be dewormed, as far as other internal parasites are concerned? Maybe the risk is higher where you live, Anne, but the only time I ever dewormed my dogs for parasites other than heartworm, was when they were puppies. 


Also, remember that when you give heartworm 'prevention,' you are actually deworming the dog for the previous month, not protecting him for the following month. 

I use a syringe that holds just 1cc (1mL is the same as 1cc, for those that might not know), so measuring out 0.2mL is super easy. Then I just squirt it over the dogs' food, mixing in just a little canned food to mask the bitter taste, and it's that easy.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Why would you want to, if your dog doesn't need to be dewormed, as far as other internal parasites are concerned? Maybe the risk is higher where you live, Anne, but the only time I ever dewormed my dogs for parasites other than heartworm, was when they were puppies.


In many parts of the world, worms and dogs are expected to got together. A small infestation doesn't really cause any harm.

But the main reason for the frequent deworming here is one of my dogs goes into schools and daycares doing dog safety presentations. I have to be super careful about any parasite that theoretically could be transmitted to people.

I'm in WI and the vets are really pushing that there is no heartworm "season" because they're getting heartworm positive dogs that were on Heartgard for the "season."



> In order for heartworm larvae to survive and be transmitted to the dog when a mosquito carrying them bites the dog, the outside temperature MUST remain higher than 57 degrees Fahrenheit for at least 30 consecutive days and nights. If the temperature drops below 57 degrees, even for just one day, the larvae cannot be passed from mosquito to host. In Michigan, I imagine they get a good amount of the year where it's below 57 degrees for 30 consecutive days


Good to know! Thanks!


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> !Yikes! There should be a warning label for that!!


Thats exactly what I told the company............they seem to not agree....because there is nothing on their warning label about it. ](*,)


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

That is just outragous!


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## Melissa Hoyer (Aug 28, 2006)

Ted - this might be worth reading. The author, Mary Strauss, is very knowledgeable and it's an easy read.

http://www.dogaware.com/HeartwormPrevention.html

Also it states that it needs to be 57 degrees day and night for one-two weeks, not 30 days. We could have that in November in this weirdo state lol.

I'm a michigan resident too by the way, and I choose to give it year round - our weather is too unpredictable.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Thanks for that article, Melissa. A very good read.I like the discussion about minimal dosage.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> The problem is the dosage. It's concentrated in cattle formulation, and lots of people get it wrong. Too much can kill or cause permanent problems.
> 
> Anne, your vet did the calculation for you, right? Are you using the cattle formulation?


Exactly, Ted.

We have twice (in the past) had posters here give dosage info for off-label canine use of Ivomec injectible cattle formulation, and they were wrong. By a lot. By factors of ten.

I PM'd them and deleted the posts.

So it's probably best that we just avoid that forum recommendation and to say that we should all talk to our vets or the manufacturer.

Earlier in the thread when you asked if heartworm was a real danger: Yes. Every state in the U.S. now has heartworm.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Melissa Hoyer said:


> Ted - this might be worth reading. The author, Mary Strauss, is very knowledgeable and it's an easy read.
> 
> http://www.dogaware.com/HeartwormPrevention.html


Mary Strauss is a goldmine. She writes for WDJ, too, and her nutrition articles are terrific.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Melissa Hoyer said:


> t states that it needs to be 57 degrees day and night for one-two weeks, not 30 days..


You're right, it says, "Heartworm larvae cannot develop to the stage needed to infect dogs until temperatures have been over 57 degrees Fahrenheit (14 degrees Centigrade), day and night, for at least one to two weeks." 

However, 4 paragraphs down, it says, "Mosquitoes may be capable of transmitting heartworm larvae to your dog around two weeks _*after *_your local temperature has stayed above 57 degrees Fahrenheit day and night."

That's around 30 days total. :wink:


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Frankly, I think it's a potential liability to a poster and the forum if something bad happens, so I certainly agree. No dosage discussion should be present.

Again, I liked the discussion in Melissa's article about FDA tests and minimum dosage. Given that Ivomec has demonstrated negative effects on some dog's well being (listless, etc) it's in the dog's best interest to limit the dose, and perhaps not go heavy (Heartgard Plus) to treat other worms that aren't there. 

But that's just my inclination. Only mine.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

What is WJD?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> What is WJD?


Whole Dog Journal, a no-advertising monthly with authoritative and current health and nutrition info.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about not treating for "extra" stuff unless you need it.


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## sasa kobasica (Oct 15, 2007)

Folks, I wouldn't recommend anyone to use Ivermectin products by himself. It is a potent poison and can be extremely dangerous if not used properly. And it can cause serious problems to some breeds of dogs (collies and some other shepherd breeds), it can even kill them. Injectable products (like those cattle formulations) may vary in concentration, which can lead to serious overdose.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

sasa kobasica said:


> Folks, I wouldn't recommend anyone to use Ivermectin products by himself. It is a potent poison and can be extremely dangerous if not used properly. And it can cause serious problems to some breeds of dogs (collies and some other shepherd breeds), it can even kill them. Injectable products (like those cattle formulations) may vary in concentration, which can lead to serious overdose.


Ditto ditto ditto


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