# Donovan Pinscher



## Mike Schoonbrood

Does anyone know anything about this breed? I have met someone who has one... interested in learning more about them.[/i]


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## David Frost

Mike, I looked at two of them about a month ago. The guy was demonstrating them to me. I was in the market for some patrol dogs. I don't know that much about them, but to me they looked like a wire-haired pit bull. Had good size to them. Both of them had incredible bites and were well controlled. Knowing our department wouldn't allow me to purchase them, (it's a perception issue) I didn't do a lot of research on them. 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott

The other dog forum had a discussion on them awhile back. You may want to use their search forum. Comment went everywhere from good to trying to reinvent the wheel. 
I think the breeder/developer is somewhere in the SE US.


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## Sarah Hall

Here's a link to the kennel that claims to have begun the breed:
Donovan K-9


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## Nick Segrue

I've watched several video clips of them, there is so much variance in the different lines that he breeds, personally I would prefer a straight forward KNPV Dutch Shepherd, you know exactly what you get and the dogs are generally not easily distracted by other dogs, there is ltos fo Pit Bull blood in Donovan Pinschers.


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## Sheldon Little

The daughter of one of my fellow CCDSA members has one. It's a fairly impressive dog. He has a slighter build than a APBT but stands taller. The head looks like a Mal and a APBT played some Barry White late one night. I've only met the one but he is very controlled and not as frantic as some Pits that I've worked with. Much more calm but very fast dog. It would be a breed that would be interesting if it ever took hold and had a large scale breeding. I doubt I would split from my Malinois but definitely would be a good dog to have in the working dog ranks.


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## Barrie Kirkland

is this a DP thread.... and not the good kind of DP


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## David Ruby

Barrie Kirkland said:


> is this a DP thread.... and not the good kind of DP


Que porn jokes in t-minus 3...2...1...

-Cheers


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## Sheldon Little

Barrie Kirkland said:


> is this a DP thread.... and not the good kind of DP


So wrong... hahaha


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## Barrie Kirkland

cant get his site to work, however i saw a pic of a DH x Pit or something similar it just looked like a DH on steroids.... however they have a fetish for cropping ears which looks terrible


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## Jeff Oehlsen

They don't seem to get past f2 without going back to the DS. There are some good ones, or so I hear, but so what. Not like they breed true.


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## Kris Finison

Sheldon Little said:


> The daughter of one of my fellow CCDSA members has one. It's a fairly impressive dog. He has a slighter build than a APBT but stands taller. The head looks like a Mal and a APBT played some Barry White late one night. I've only met the one but he is very controlled and not as frantic as some Pits that I've worked with. Much more calm but very fast dog. It would be a breed that would be interesting if it ever took hold and had a large scale breeding. I doubt I would split from my Malinois but definitely would be a good dog to have in the working dog ranks.


Actually, Carver is a Donovan Pinscher/American Bulldog.
An awesome dog, he is.


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## Thomas Barriano

Kris Finison said:


> Actually, Carver is a Donovan Pinscher/American Bulldog.
> An awesome dog, he is.



I think Donovan refers to these as a Proto Donovan
Where he takes a "Donovan Pinscher" and breeds back to a foundation stock dog. Chris Carr trialed one a few years ago.
Kyle Sprag has/had? a nice proto donovan. A DP bred back to a Malinois. As far as new breeds. I think the DP is 10x better then any bandogge I've seen. "Almost" as good as Donovan thinks they are


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## Sheldon Little

Kris Finison said:


> Actually, Carver is a Donovan Pinscher/American Bulldog.
> An awesome dog, he is.


Damn you Kris and correcting me!!! ](*,) ah alright, i was struggling to remember his name. What's up with them, I haven't seen them since last year. Why don't we have club tomorrow??? I missed last week because of work.


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## RICKY BARTLETTE

hey mike! my name is Ricky we spoke before. I trai with Ron Marshall and a guy that train with us has a few. this is a very impressive dog. call Ron and ask him about it.


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## Matt Grosch

sounds to me like trying to recreate the KNPV program, without the time spent, numbers of dogs used, quality of dogs, and testing


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## Jason Moore

I don't see why so many people take offense to others working with an off breed. I'm sure they are not thinking that this is the dog of the future so to speak. Maybe some I dunno but every breed of every type has breeds that think there line is the best out there weather of not they actually have the back ground to prove such. But back on my topic I just don't see why when some one says what about working this dog why not. It's worth a try imo.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Once again, you are assuming that this is a breed.


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## Jason Moore

I guess you have a point there until it has a breed standard and registration label it isn't a breed either imo. But I still don't see the harm in working a mut either. LOL I still get so tired of trying to descrbibe the difference between the apbt and the ab. It's not like I'm trying to down the apbt just trying to distinguish the two breeds for people. Kinda off topic but for some reason that popped in my head. LOL


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## Lori Longardino

Dominick Donovan is from Long Island, New York. Dp's are comprised of DS, Malinios,APBT, Boxer, American Bulldog.The foundation DS was a KNPV 1 titled dog named raymond. Raymond was a very civil DS who liked to come up the leash when outed or failed to go over the paisade. I owned a raymond granddaughter. She was all prey with poor enviormental nerves. I live on Long Island and when I wanted a new puppy I called Mike Suttle, drove down to his place and picked out a DS X MH out of ruddie pegge jr. If you want a cross bred dog, stick with a KNPV DS X MH.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Civil and coming up the leash is like vanilla icing on a turd. 

One has nothing to do with the other, and you would never think to put the two together.


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## Lori Longardino

Yes you are right Jeff, one has nothing to do with the other. I was just describing raymond. He had very civil side to him and he also was notouriuos for blowing into Dominick. He brought the dog out to our ring club several times and one of the times when sent over the palisades, failed to go over , turned around off the wall and into dominicks chest. He was a nice dog but a little on the edge.


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## Matt Grosch

^ like in 'The Hangover'





'He was really nice'

'I think he sounds mean'


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sounds like a shitter to me. Can't go over the pallisade, so I will just bite dad. Weird.


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## Lori Longardino

Or insecure when failing to do what was asked of him. Nor sure how he was handled while being trained for his knpv 1. It wasn't that long ago 15-20 years, that most imported, titled dogs were quirky.


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## Timothy Saunders

I owned a dp named demon. we won the vice championship in the psa 1.(nice way to say second). the dog was very good and would have been better had I got him as a little pup. this dog is definately better than the bandogge. if you have a bandogge you should put the dp in it , it will make it better. As for raymond which I also knew and caught.he was far from a shitter. he was a knpv metlof dog with very good bloodlines. when people talk a bout a real manstopper he was it at around 55lbs. He came with a tag don't open unless you are prepared to get bitten. You are also right about the raymond pup. I had one that wasn't good. that is how i got demon. raymond did better to german shepards than mals.


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## Lori Longardino

Raymond and Pipsquiek produce a nice bitch named Visa. Very hard dog. Only problem was she maybe weighed 40 pounds wet. None the less she was a bitch who was not to be taken lightly.


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## Marylyn DeGregorio

*Re: Donovan Pinscher: Breed Standard*



Jason Moore said:


> I guess you have a point there until it has a breed standard and registration label it isn't a breed either imo. But I still don't see the harm in working a mut either. LOL I still get so tired of trying to descrbibe the difference between the apbt and the ab. It's not like I'm trying to down the apbt just trying to distinguish the two breeds for people. Kinda off topic but for some reason that popped in my head. LOL


DONOVAN PINSCHER OFFICIAL BREED STANDARD

I. Introduction

A) To truly understand this breed standard, one must know the history behind this breed existence. Welcome to the exciting new world of Donovan's Pinscher! Never before in the history of the United States has there been an attempt to produce a true utilitarian K-9......a K-9 not only competitive with it's inspirational European predecessors......but uniquely superior to them in several ways......after many years of breeding classic working dogs: EX: German Shepherds, Belgian Malinois, Rottweillers, Doberman Pinschers, Dutch Shepherds......and enjoying many successes with various breeds.....I have been haunted with a vision.....a vision of a working dog superior to all who have come before him....a dog of unique and varied talents......the tenacity of the fighting dog......the power of the Molosser......the trainability of the Herder......speed, power, durability and talent......a dog that could run, jump, climb and swim.....a dog that could wrestle and twist like the great fighting dogs that I have had the privilege to encounter......a dog with a quick mind and reflex......who would retrieve naturally on land or in water......a dog who had great responses to it's handler, quick to learn and extremely eager......a dog of power......in mind and body......ferocious when challenged and formidable to behold......a dog which could perform equally well in organized dog sports......or life and death confrontation......a dog that could stop your heart with it's grace and passion......or stop an intruder with explosive action......a turbo charged, fearless protector......with clownish sociability......who could out-do most any dog at any task......trick......or trade......The American Built Super Dog......Engineered to meet the increasing demands......of a changing world.......... 

B) Due to the breeds intended purpose and natural proclivity to protect it should be judge at a distance. Although many specimens are approachable and sociable, it is not considered a fault not to be so

II. Overall Appearance

A) Conforming to breed type

1) Should look like a Donovan Pinscher from across the ring
2) A sturdy three dimensional. Giving the impression of power & strength
3) A square dog with a sturdy heavy boned front, & a light springy back end


B) Characteristics

1) Should be obedient, tractable, alert, reliable, undemanding with plenty of stamina. Adult dogs should be a lean exercised animal showing a hint of rib & back bone (without hipbones showing) with firm defined muscles with a clean glossy coat & trimmed nails. Presentation of dogs in puppy classes should be of a well nourished puppy, showing no ribs or hips. Coat should be glossy wit short, trimmed nails.
2) A lively dog of clear temperament, General aggressiveness is within breed type. OVER AGRESSIVENESS prevents the judge from accurately viewing the animal. All faults should be judged in accordance with the negative affect on working capacity 

III. Attitude

A) Confident and alert, interested in its handler
B) Interested in things around them, in control of their space, not fearful of anything in their surroundings.

IV. Head & Neck

A) Head
1.Well proportioned to the body & well balanced in relationship to the rest of the body
2.Wedged shaped when viewed from top & side

B.Neck

1.should be well muscled
2. Should be long in length

C. Teeth

1. Powerful, scissor bite (when mouth is shut, the incisors of the upper jaw closely overlapping the incisors of the lower jaw

D. Eyes

1. almond shaped deep set

E. Ears

1. Should be a tall military crop

V. Back End

A. Loin

1. Broad & long enough to square the dog. Too short can interfere with the dogs flexibility, too long causes the dog to carry to much weight and affect a dogs agility and quickness.

B. Hip

1. Long & sloping with adequate width, this can be judge by tail set which should be low.

C. Hind Quarters

1.Powerful well muscled with good bone, forming a normal angle at the stifle joint; thus the thigh is not out of the perpendicular. In the hock a moderate angle is desired so that the hock is perpendicularly below the ichium. Which contributes to the natural springiness that is desired in the rear assembly.

2) Movement, light of foot, springy and not far reaching, a quick dog able to change direction effectively, yet with high endurance

VI. Front End

A.Ribcage

1.Deep & elliptical with a prominent breastbone or prosternum. From the side, the bottom of the ribcage should at least be even with the elbow.

2. Well sprung at the top, tapering to the bottom, extending back to the loin.

B.Shoulders

1.Wider than the ribcage, well laid back broad and flat allowing for adequate muscular attachment for a heavy and sturdy front end

C.Feet

1. Small & tight set high on the pasterns.
2.Pads thick and well built up

VII. Tail and Coat

A.Coat

1.Skin thick and loose around the neck and chest, tight fitting elsewhere, showing vertical folds around the neck and chest even in a well exercised animal.
2. Short and bristled, the gloss showing the overall health of the animal.
3.Colors, red, fawn, solid or with black masks, any shade of brindle or black the only fault is those colors or color patterns known to be genetically linked to health problems. 

B.Tail

1. Thick at base and docked

FAULTS: Too much mastiff type, patch or irregular markings lack of appropriate crop ear or dock tail


MAJOR FAULTS: Lack of working temperament lack of breed type, lack of agility or power


DISQUALIFICATIONS: Flighty or fearful disposition, shyness, insecure demeanor or other temperament defect which would prevent effective working ability.
(read less)
DONOVAN PINSCHER OFFICIAL BREED STANDARD


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## georgia estes

I have one, I like her a lot. Smart as a whip, fast like a greyhound, one tough little female for sure.


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## Alison Grubb

I've only seen one DP and he was just a pup. Showed some real nice drive and good nerves in the evaluation I saw. I would have to see a lot more of them to say I knew anything about the breed tho.


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## Joby Becker

I have seen a few. The ones I saw had a ton of drive, but wouldn't out at all. (not the dogs fault) Not sure what he actually puts in, but the ones I saw looked like mal/pit crosses. I've seen a bunch of video and pics and there is quite a bit of variance in the phenotypes but all seemed to be decent dogs.

I do remember him making the statement that it doesn't matter what he breeds a DP to, he gets DP's back. That kinda threw me for a loop.

Here is a link to a video made of the most recent "specialty" event. I realize this is presented to his owner's and the general public, but the "hype" is a little over the top for me, especially considering the performances shown in the video. The dogs seemed ok to me, just not what I was expecting to see after listening to the "over the top" intro by Dom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncbqKPEAIb0&feature=player_embedded


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## georgia estes

Yeah, that video isn't a good example. Some of them are truly over the top and some are just really good, and I've seen some that were so so, as with any breed. Mine is good, she is not 'over the top' but I do like her a lot and she is what I asked for. She has nerves of steel, great drive, and she is not too big. I'd post a video on here but I don't really feel like getting attacked, lol.


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## Jason Hammel

I thinking they aren't coming out 100% with pointy ears and some folks are cropping?

It sounds cool to have Supposedly have the best of both worlds but isn't this guy just trying to re create a DS? I read earlier some males are up to 100lbs but this vid looks like they are all between 35-50 - well except this last beast at the end

As Jeff O said tho - "is it a breed yet" seems no so many different types


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## georgia estes

Don't know...but as long as they work I don't mind \\/


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## David Ruby

Jason Hammel said:


> I thinking they aren't coming out 100% with pointy ears and some folks are cropping?


I believe they are all cropped.



> It sounds cool to have Supposedly have the best of both worlds but isn't this guy just trying to re create a DS?


As I understand it, the DP is more of a molosser-heavy dog than a Dutch Shepherd and with more of the Pit Bull Terrier-type of temperament (as opposed to a herder-type of temperament).



> I read earlier some males are up to 100lbs but this vid looks like they are all between 35-50 - well except this last beast at the end
> 
> As Jeff O said tho - "is it a breed yet" seems no so many different types


Again, just my understanding of it, but apparently there are a few different lines of DP. I am sort of guessing so he can use dogs from one line/type to add X to a certain breeding or whatever, and maybe for some diversity. I also believe when Donovan made the comment that whatever he breeds to comes out a Donovan he meant (or at least I read that he meant) is that the DP type (phenotype and temperament) tends to come out even in say a 1/2 DP 1/2 AB (I mention that because I've seen video of a SchH trial with a "Donovan Pinscher" that was 1/2 DP and 1/2 AB).

I've heard there are some really nice ones from a couple of the agitators I know, and from what I've gathered they seem to be pretty consistently good workers. But it was pointed out to me that most of have never even seen a DP, much less worked one, so it's hard to really compare or comment too much on them. I just looked into them because it seemed like kind of a cool project and, probably like most dog-nerds, this stuff kind of fascinates me.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker

David Ruby said:


> I believe they are all cropped.
> 
> 
> 
> As I understand it, the DP is more of a molosser-heavy dog than a Dutch Shepherd and with more of the Pit Bull Terrier-type of temperament (as opposed to a herder-type of temperament).
> 
> 
> 
> Again, just my understanding of it, but apparently there are a few different lines of DP. I am sort of guessing so he can use dogs from one line/type to add X to a certain breeding or whatever, and maybe for some diversity. I also believe when Donovan made the comment that whatever he breeds to comes out a Donovan he meant (or at least I read that he meant) is that the DP type (phenotype and temperament) tends to come out even in say a 1/2 DP 1/2 AB (I mention that because I've seen video of a SchH trial with a "Donovan Pinscher" that was 1/2 DP and 1/2 AB).
> 
> I've heard there are some really nice ones from a couple of the agitators I know, and from what I've gathered they seem to be pretty consistently good workers. But it was pointed out to me that most of have never even seen a DP, much less worked one, so it's hard to really compare or comment too much on them. I just looked into them because it seemed like kind of a cool project and, probably like most dog-nerds, this stuff kind of fascinates me.
> 
> -Cheers


More power to him, seems like a good project, the dogs I've seen were nice, just a lot of physical variances. I have a friend who has worked with pit/dobe crosses with good success as well. But my friend is smart enough not to make claims about "super dogs"....I've seen one DP in the 80 lb range. The others were around 50-55. Most I see on the web are of the smaller varieties as well.


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## Matt Grosch

steel seems like a super amateur/recent attempt at the KNPV dogs, without all the training, trails, etc, etc,




I saw this dutchie recently (and like a number of them) the pit in him was obvious.....very good looking



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9OtcNZid7Q


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## will fernandez

Excellent team in that video


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## Jason Hammel

Dang thats a thick DS Looks like he was mixed w/ a Rhino but doesn't look those huge nuts slow him down any.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So you are sure that there is pit in there ?? How many generations back ??

Just curious as to where you got that knowledge.


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## Matt Grosch

I think you can tell right by looking at him, thick skull, a little bit of that pit smile and squinty eyes...

But I asked and was told that yes, about 3 (if i recall) generations back....and I may be wrong, but I want to see down from luijken stuff(?)

Another K9, dutch mal, from my city has a thick skull and a little longer coat, makes me think some pit and GSD


Isnt Suttle's dog carlos's father (if you look on the pedigree page) similar?


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## todd pavlus

look at this mal.i He's pretty thick


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## Jason Hammel

It was my understanding KNPV breed more for the larger boned dogs? The french breed more for the sleek athleticism. Are the KNPV breedings in its crudest form just taking the larger dogs with the desired traits and breeding them to other larger dogs with the same desired traits. Kinda like drawing out the larger recessive genes? Anything I have heard about the DS is maybe they did have pit somewhere in there and maybe they did not and it was until proven just heresay.


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## Matt Grosch

Im no expert, but it seems fairly accepted that they mixed in pit or whatever to get the best dogs they could


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## Drew Peirce

you tell me......


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## andreas broqvist

I realy think this hype about Pits in Ds and Malis is just ridiculus. YES they culd have mixt it with pits, did they, how knows? Everywher that I her thos rumurs I ask for pedegrees and wher the pis shuld be, NO one has ever awnserd this. Not even close.

The pitbull "type" look is not that special, I se more GSDs in thos dogs than any pit. Yes a broad GSD head, Not a pit head.
Look at labradores, Austrailian cattel dogs, Ridgeback and so on, Al have musth of that type of look. Why wuldent the DS and Mali produce the same look if they wanted them to have that. They are dogs its easy to shange aperens within a breed withot ading, Easy stuff to like a broad head and muscular bodys. 

Hey Give me some prof. If not Yes the rmight be but stopp seling it like its a fact.


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## andreas broqvist

oooh I forgot the rotty.
If they want sice and you se the "pitbull" head in them what about rotty? 
Shorter fur, Still underwull, Big braud heads, muscular and so on.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I think you can tell right by looking at him, thick skull, a little bit of that pit smile and squinty eyes..

Buko has really big jaw muscles, and he has squinty eyes. Does that mean that he has pit in him ??


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## Chris Michalek

people are dumb in general.

I can't tell you how many people have argued that my Rott is a pit cross. Just because he's ripped, has squinty eyes and has a thick head doesn't mean he's got pit in him.

Now Buko, that may be another story altogether. From the photos I've seen looks like he's got some shitter in him.


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## andreas broqvist

so now i have lookt thru that video.
they look like fun, and they are nice looking.
but a superdog, not what i can se in that movie.
maby its the trainers but the ob is pretty bad. hey tetshing heel wit the toy in the right hand, sorry...
the atacs is noting spesial ither, i have traind with pure pits that hit harder.
i have a smal mali bitsh that i am traning with now, not mine.
she hits like crazy, if you look at the dog from thenside line you se tgat she acelerate the last bit to the decoy and realy pusch of like crazy. that is super dog style. i saw nothing of this in this movie, the just went thru the motion.

sorry a bit negative but i realy hopet for more after al the hype.
it wuld be a nice breed to trye out, but i wuld know that i wuld get beten in both speed and power by a mali.


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## Joby Becker

andreas broqvist said:


> so now i have lookt thru that video.
> they look like fun, and they are nice looking.
> but a superdog, not what i can se in that movie.
> maby its the trainers but the ob is pretty bad. hey tetshing heel wit the toy in the right hand, sorry...
> the atacs is noting spesial ither, i have traind with pure pits that hit harder.
> i have a smal mali bitsh that i am traning with now, not mine.
> she hits like crazy, if you look at the dog from thenside line you se tgat she acelerate the last bit to the decoy and realy pusch of like crazy. that is super dog style. i saw nothing of this in this movie, the just went thru the motion.
> 
> sorry a bit negative but i realy hopet for more after al the hype.
> it wuld be a nice breed to trye out, but i wuld know that i wuld get beten in both speed and power by a mali.


The ones I saw were much more impressive than what was on the video. I think the hype factor is a little over the top though for sure. Have yet to see a DP out perform any breed at any task trick or trade or whatever the tagline is.


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## Sue Miller

OK--we parted ways with Donovan 2 years ago for very good reasons, but we love our 2 DPs. Here are some videos.

Mr. Foxx--almost 8 years old today & going strong--raised him from puppy:
http://www.blip.tv/file/583338

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3TF39veFoI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrh0LC94kck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx71TIVQGyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_GfVQjVUR4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG9DpHw3-fY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr3vS6rpeEU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr3vS6rpeEU

Jack--rescued him at 5 years old--almost 9 years old today--still going strong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPPnlB7AI1U


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## Harry Keely

So wheres this Donovan guy now? Or are you all chasing a ghost?


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## tracey schneider

wow the video........ wow....... i think i just threw up a little in my mouth







........dogs are whatever....not seeing anything ground breaking or earth shattering but its a small sample .........but the spew was on a whole nother level :-#

t


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## Michael Swetz

Sue Miller said:


> OK--we parted ways with Donovan 2 years ago for very good reasons, but we love our 2 DPs.


Willing to share why?


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## tracey schneider

hey sue, i remember you and mr foxx!! i dont know if you remember me but i had a bulldog about the same age named icon. didnt realize you split from him (donovan)? how far did you wind up going with mr. foxx? Seemed like a promising dog/ puppy at the time.

t


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## Guest

Harry Keely said:


> So wheres this Donovan guy now? Or are you all chasing a ghost?


 
http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1207312610&user=jmd413
Here is his board link.....


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## eric squires

An interesting fact i found the other day when looking for DPs. Mr Donovan was convicted of animal crueltly in 2006 in PA. He and his wife were found guilty of faliure to provide vet care for dogs that had contracted Parvo at there kennel. Just thought i would pass info along. The site is pet-abuse.com you can look up the case by name and state.


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## Harry Keely

and the plot thickens


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## chris haynie

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/7162/PA/US/#UPDATES

i got no opinion and never met any donovan pinschers and dont even know shit to judge them by if i did meet them, but heres a link i just found re: donovan. i am bored and waiting for my chinese food.


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## eric squires

I do not know about PA, but if you are convicted or plea in WV you cannot own any animals for 5 years.


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## Tamara Villagomez

wow 35 dogs died...thats insane..


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## Jason Hammel

I have mixed feelings about this after reading the entire thing. Not about the just desserts tho.

Quote: The SPCA citations were based on the deaths of four of the dogs � puppies Donovan and Barisano had euthanized at the Lackawanna County SPCA. The sanitation citations related to excessive dog excrement that was found on the premises.

I am not a big fan of the fact this dude left his dogs to live in squalor. Loosing 35 dogs is inexcusible.

Quote: The couple vehemently disputed the cruelty and veterinary care citations, arguing they had put the dogs down as an act of mercy because they suspected the animals were suffering from Parvo � a virus that causes extreme diarrhea and vomiting, leaving the dogs in excruciating pain.

But Brown rejected that argument, saying Donovan and Barisano had an obligation to consult a veterinarian to make that diagnosis, rather than making that determination themselves.

Seems like he was trying to place the blame on his in house veterinarian.

Now with this ruling how does this effect a breeders right to cull. Or is it considered unrelated?

Apparently the way he treated his animals and loosing 35 dogs and as he said 50k in dogs alone he also has depreciatted the value of the real estate and kennels by 100's of thousands of dollars.

According to the orig owner 

QUOTE: "Haddle on Friday said Donovan and Barisano left the kennel and accompanying home in deplorable condition. A tour of the premises Friday showed it to be strewn with litter and junk that Donovan and Barisano left behind once they closed the business.

Haddle said he sold the kennel to Donovan and Barisano in July 2004 for $750,000. He estimates its worth now is only about $250,000 because of the condition of the buildings and the legal troubles encountered by Donovan and Barisano destroyed the kennel's reputation.

"When we sold it was grossing $650,000 to $675,000 a year. Right now it's zero. The only thing we can sell is the real estate," Haddle said."

Dang I am in the wrong business. Note to self if I start a kennel keep it clean.


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

Jason Hammel said:


> As Jeff O said tho - "is it a breed yet" seems no so many different types


someone said something about ssso many different Phenotypes? Lol

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1259/malinois.jpg

Ps. I am not i fan of Donovan Breed i jussst meet the breed in this post


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## Michael Swetz

I've seen 2 Donovan Pinschers in person. Their owner was a "trainer" with a checkered past and upon further scrutiny did not have the credentials he claimed. He also has quite an online following of people who claimed that he scammed them, lied to them, abused, and/or ruined their dogs. That situation and how close this individual and Donovan appear to be kind of soured my opnion on the breed. 

Granted, I haven't verified every claim made on the net against this person, but I know for a fact at best he misrepresented himself and at worst is a pathological liar. Even when confronted with evidence that he lied, he simply claimed that there must have been some kind of misunderstanding or that the records must have gotten lost.


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## Matt Grosch

andreas broqvist said:


> I realy think this hype about Pits in Ds and Malis is just ridiculus. YES they culd have mixt it with pits, did they, how knows? Everywher that I her thos rumurs I ask for pedegrees and wher the pis shuld be, NO one has ever awnserd this. Not even close.
> 
> The pitbull "type" look is not that special, I se more GSDs in thos dogs than any pit. Yes a broad GSD head, Not a pit head.
> Look at labradores, Austrailian cattel dogs, Ridgeback and so on, Al have musth of that type of look. Why wuldent the DS and Mali produce the same look if they wanted them to have that. They are dogs its easy to shange aperens within a breed withot ading, Easy stuff to like a broad head and muscular bodys.
> 
> Hey Give me some prof. If not Yes the rmight be but stopp seling it like its a fact.



the police k9 I posted- I was told by the owner that was extremely familiar with the pedigree that pit was 3 (?) generations back, other KNPV experts also say it is common, and some of the pictures are pretty telling

everyone knows KNPV pedigrees are to be taken with a grain of salt...

what kind of proof would be sufficient?


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## Matt Grosch

eric squires said:


> An interesting fact i found the other day when looking for DPs. Mr Donovan was convicted of animal crueltly in 2006 in PA. He and his wife were found guilty of faliure to provide vet care for dogs that had contracted Parvo at there kennel. Just thought i would pass info along. The site is pet-abuse.com you can look up the case by name and state.



I havent investigated personally, but he doesnt have a good/trustworthy reputation


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## eric squires

There is Pit in the KNPV pedigrees. The dutch will tell where it is in the pedigree if they over here in the states. They can not admit to it over in Holland because of the ban on Pits in KNPV. Oddly enough i thought it would come thru the brindle DS, but the dogs that i have been told of are fawn/ Mali. I have pesonally seen dogs that i know for a fact are GSDxPit that are a dead ringers for a DS. Those dogs are over here and were produced here in the states.


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## David Ruby

Matt Grosch said:


> I havent investigated personally, but he doesnt have a good/trustworthy reputation


He seems to be very polarizing. Some people think he's deplorable. Others say those people don't know him a/o don't like him because or his personality. I've never met him so don't really have a personal opinion. I do know a couple of people who I trust that have met a/o worked with him and he is supposed to be a good/experienced trainer and there are supposed to be some pretty good Donovan Pinschers. Beyond that, I couldn't say. You can find people of both extremes depending on who you ask.

Whether or not his program is equal to a KNPV-line dog? I don't know who could judge that. The program still seems in its infancy although there is allegedly some consistency in working ability, and there does seem to be some phenotype to them and some at least quasi-established lines (others can comment more than me, but from the pictures I can usually note some similarities between them). And I'd guess not all KNPV dogs are created equally.

I'm not advocating for the guy or his dogs. It's just a program that exists that happened to capture my interest with at least some reporting they are anywhere from good-to-great working quality (depending on who you ask). More than that, it seems like it's up to potential buyers to check them out and see if they're what you like or not and I guess if you like Donovan or whomever is breeding the dogs you are interested in. For me, they're an interesting concept and I could see a niche if they pan out. But again, for me right now they are just kind of an interesting line of dogs that are out there. I've never met Donovan or one of his dogs so I'm just going by the Internet and second-hand information from people that have worked them.

-Cheers


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## georgia estes

I have dealt with Donovan many times and I have nothing bad to say about him. I bought a dog from him and it ended up not being the right dog for me and the second I told him, he shipped me a new dog and paid for everything and did not ask for the other dog back. He would send me 5 more dogs if I asked him to free of charge if I was not happy. He has always been helpful and available when I needed something from him. I don't know about all the other stuff people say but he was nothing but good to me.


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