# How not to breed malinois...



## Anna Kasho

http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/569419.html

I hope this is allowed... FEEL FREE TO DELETE IF NOT... I saw this ad on Hoobly, and could only think that this guy is an F-ing idiot to be inbreeding with his one male. The resulting pups speak for themselves, three cinnamons and one blue, and I have to wonder what else they inherited that's not so readily apparent. To me this seems an ideal example of what NOT to do - I feel bad just thinking about those pups... 

Maybe I am wrong? Is there a possible reason how this could benifit the breed??:-k 

I love malinois and definitely want to breed eventually - but I still have tons to study. Planning on a couple more years of working and learning, at least, because I want to do it right...

Not like this guy.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Is that the guy who has the retarded videos on youtube??


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## Kadi Thingvall

Wow, that's interesting from a genetic point of view if nothing else, since I've seen blues but never seen a liver. Makes me wonder how many people have been culling based on color, because this isn't the first time this type of linebreeding has been done. We already have people advertising "rare blue Malinois" :-( I wonder how long it will take before they start to advertise the "rare liver Malinois"

The pedigree for the sire is at
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=6831&METANAME=Nico%20van%20Guard#


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## Anna Kasho

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Is that the guy who has the retarded videos on youtube??


I don't know - but "retarded" sounds about right for him. I remember he posted on Leerburg once with a "my XXX is bigger than y'alls" attitude. I think he got baned for that.

Kadi - what a terrible thought. Rare liver mals... What's next, a rare white mal like those poor dobes??? :-& 

He is probably too dumb to know they aren't supposed to be that color. Made me think some other breeder would cull too rather than own up to it...


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## Mike Talkington

Starnge:-k Maybe it's just the cop in me but when I read the ad on Hoobly above, It seemed I had seen an add for GSDs here http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/58063.html with the same wording and phrases. The guy on the database is supposed to be in Mississippi & has called me several times the past few months wanting one of my puppies, however I wont sell to him...call it a gut feeling I guess.
May not be the same guy but a rather strange coinicidence with the nearly identical wording.


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## Stephanie O'Brien

I agree.......saw his ads for these puppies and was disgusted! 'Red-nose' malinois pups!?!?! Um....WHAT?!?! Ok buddy. 
Another thing I noticed is that his super producing stud dog does NOTHING and is one of the most lathargic malinois 'studs' I have ever seen Dog has NO titles, NO health clearances, NO clue of what he actually does, NADA!!
He claims his nico dog was imported from Holland (which could be true) but since the sire, dam and granddam are all working here in the states.....it is a bit hard to believe.
I remember watching a few videos of 'Master Vondermuff's' last year and I have to admit....it was one of the most amusing videos I have seen to date! I even sent it to my friends to give them some entertainment. It's too bad he took that video down so soon. Did you know he 'invented' the 'American Shepherd' by being the first to successfully cross select German shepherds w 'Belgium Malinois'??? Somebody needs to send this guy back to the 'pen' where, by the looks of it, he discovered how to train dogs. Funny but scary for the future of the breed I love.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

WOW Anna, I think it is amazing that from an ad and pictures you can tell how well these pups will work. Another non breeder heard from. What other ads would you like to show us that we don't give a **** about? ? ? ?


WHO CARES ? ? ? ?

Next you will be showing us pics of shelter dogs being put down, like anyone gives a **** about that. Nice pet forum we have going here.


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## Stephanie O'Brien

ps- I think that pedigree is BS (as most know is very common) because with ALL that Atos he should be getting a ton of Tervs.....especially if he is inbreeding


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## Anna Kasho

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WOW Anna, I think it is amazing that from an ad and pictures you can tell how well these pups will work. Another non breeder heard from. What other ads would you like to show us that we don't give a **** about? ? ? ?


We? You got a mouse in your pocket? Or would that be using the Royal Plural form of address...

Terribly sorry, Your Majesty. I bow in the face of your superior knowledge of working inbred rednose liver mals.

:roll:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

if bloodline of father's is correct you had some terv's and dark red mali (if i see father's site of Nick and father's side of mother of dam). If the bloodline is correct the dog is bred in Holland and IS a good sportsprospect.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Whats wrong with inbreeding?

If the guy is who I think he is then he's incompetent. Dont know squat about the dogs or pups, but the guy is a nut


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## Stephanie O'Brien

I just can't see that the pedigree would be correct. I understand blue malinois popping up every once in awhile but have never seen 'red-nose' malinois before. I think there is something else in the soup.
I dont think there is anything wrong with inbreeding at all IF you know what your doing and know the lines. If you cant pass an IQ test......it's generally not a great idea.


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## Anna Kasho

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Whats wrong with inbreeding?


Other than concentrating faults/weaknesses, which I doubt this guy can recognise?

Done intelligently, inbreeding can "fix" good genetic traits in a line, and I'd have nothing against it - but this would require some heavy culling to eliminate the faults... The dogs used would have to be outstanding, as well. A melanin mutation, such as the blues, livers, albino, weakens the nails, pads, coat, affects eyes (sight and sensitivity to UV), affects hearing, and weakens the immune system - in worst case. Correct?


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## Lisa Maze

First of all, if you want a correct Malinois pedigree buy a show dog because there is no such thing as a correct working Malinois pedigree. As far as livers, I have never seen one and was thrilled to see these pups from a purely research standpoint. Yes, the guy seems like an idiot but there are far more idiots out there breeding Malinois than just him. Luckily, this guy puts up red flags by focusing on the rare colors and even mislabels a liver as cinnamon.

One of the things I am most proud of in the Malinois is the majority of the dogs are bred for working attributes. Color does not effect the quality of a dogs work. Now it is not uncommon for health problems most notably skin and coat to be linked to dilute recessives but the aesthetics of color will not effect biting, jumping or other important working traits. Here are links to two very informative websites that may serve to remind you where we came from and what we are still today...

Kennel Cami de Catheric
http://www.camidecatheric.org/
Look under "HISTOIRE"

Kennel Lobster's Home
http://home.planet.nl/~kreef210/honden.htm
Here we see the same variety of type and color as in the foundation dogs of our breed.

Correctness of the pedigree aside, I have seen other blues from a similar pedigree combining Freida's Home dogs that go back to Elgos and old dutch lines (Rakker)

Take look at this dog...http://www.heartlandbelgians.com/heartland's_deja_blue.htm
He is a blue with a similar pedigree to the pups in this litter and he sires many blues even when bred to normal colored bitches.

Thanks to Michael Ellis for walking me through this step by step and assuring me that we will not get blues from our blue stud dog if we breed him to our Elgos linebred bitches. We just bred him to our 4 x Elogos bitch JouJou and got ten normal colored, normal coated puppies. The comment about the abscence of tervs also applies to this litter as we bred JouJou's mother to Villier's brother and got five out of ten tervs.

Genetics are tricky!

Lisa


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## Natalie Heath

I saw a liver Malinois 3 or 4 years ago at a SAR tracking seminar that I went to. It was a really nice dog with a great working attitude. I don't remember what kennel it was from though. 

Natalie


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## Lisa Maze

Make sure you bookmark the Cami de Catheric website. They have lots of historical photos of not just Malinois but all four varieties and photos of the foundation breeders and handlers as well.

Check this link out to see one thing about the modern day Malinois that has definitely improved-the looks of the handlers/breeders. Judging from these pictures some of the most famous names in Malinois worked nights as porn stars

http://www.camidecatheric.org/MENTORS2.htm

Lisa


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## Natalie Heath

I just found the team's website. Here is an image of the dog...

http://www.illinoissearchdogs.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=32

Natalie


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## Lisa Maze

Here is another breed with a long tradition of breeding dogs for working attributes only...the Kelpie. 










Kelpies are commonly found in liver, fawn and blue. I have trouble imagining that these colors would not have been weeded out of the breeding stock if they were seeing a higher percentage of health problems. Most of my anecdotal information of dilutes and health problems comes from the Dobermann yet you would be hard pressed to find a healthy one in any color.

For more photos and information on the breed...

http://www.kelpiesinc.com/


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## Lisa Maze

I do not know if all of the information is directly applicable but here is a link with much information of color inheritance in the Kelpie.

http://www.hnrworkingkelpies.com/Coat_Colors.html

A qoute from the site:

"Just a reminder: the phenotype (what you can see) does not interfere 
with how the dog works."


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## Kadi Thingvall

I was emailed this link to a liver colored Malinois. Interesting looking, still don't think I'd run out to get one or try to reproduce it but in some ways I think I like it better then the blue. I'm not sure what the bloodlines are (I asked, waiting to hear back), I was told the dog was from an inbred litter.


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## Stephanie O'Brien

I'm not one to care about what's on paper, it's where the dog is really from that matters. My only point is this guy doesn't seem to know a thing about breeding Malinois and he is inbreeding on top of that. My worry is that he encourages a trend in 'rare' colored Malinois along with other 'overnight' breeders and the breed goes down the crapper. 
Again, I DON'T have a problem with: inbreeding, odd colors (except white/albino), and incorrect pedigrees. In fact, I dont really know any good working Malinois with a pedigree that is 100% correct.
I would be lying if I said it wasn't interesting to see liver Malinois but would be more ok with it if they were from a more reputable breeder. It makes one a bit suspicious. Where would the liver pigment come from??
So Lisa, would you have expected some tervs in this guy's litter? (if the pedigree is accurate, for conversations sake) Genetics ARE tricky and funny!


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## Lisa Maze

I agree with your concerns regarding this breeder and breeders like him. Too late though, there are already people breeding Malinois for unusual colors. In researching blues for my own information I came up with many ads for Malinois based on color. 

As far as expecting Tervs, yes and no. Fauxtois was from a litter with two tervs out of ten pups. Her sire Gator was bred to Notorie 4 times and only the "F" litter had tervs. He also threw a terv from a breeding to a Notoire x Oslo daughter. He was bred to an Ot Vitosha bitch (Bomber x Eureka), a Idol daughter, Gitane Vroomshoeve and a bitch belonging to Debbie Skinner as well and did not throw any tervs in those litter.

When Faux was bred to BB, there were 5 tervs. This was Fauxtois' fifth litter and the first time she produced tervs. JouJou is a Fauxtois daughter and is linebred on Elgos who is in the pedigree of many working Tervs. So yes, based on pedigree, past results and the theory that Villier and BB are brothers, I expected tervs. However I am also not surprised we did not get any based on those same past results.

Life is full of surprises, I can imagine a blue terv popping out of one of our litters in the future. Most Malinois litters are so monochrome I would almost welcome the variety.

Oh, and if I ever get a liver, I am going to keep it. Kadi is right the livers are prettier than the blues (except for Villi, of course).


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## Stephanie O'Brien

I think if I had a choice, I'll take a blue.  

I remember when Byrak was bred to Kali (D Litter du Chateau de Kama) all the pups were the normal color for Byrak pups.....except one. This one male was bi-color like a GSD. Mostly solid black w tan on the legs. He turned out to be a nice working dog and when the litter was repeated, all normal colors. I guess genetics can perform in a russian roullete style as our experiences show.

Here he is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5AOlKMj2VU


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## Lisa Maze

Is he a black and tan or a pattered sable? Is it heavy overlay in a saddle pattern or is it more like a black and tan GSD? On another board someone once posted a link to the cutest litter of bi-color Malinois pups marked like Dobes. They had the tiniest ears too!


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## Stephanie O'Brien

He is black and tan. It's kinda cool looking but the only drawback is people insist they are German Shepherds.


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## Lyn Chen

If he's that guy from Leerburg who got banned, it's amazing how in three years he went from asking noob questions to being Master Trainer.


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## Kadi Thingvall

There was a litter of Laekenois that had some black/tan (Dobe marking) pups in the litter. There is a photo of one at http://images.snapfish.com/3423586723232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D3242%3E482%3E445%3EWSNRCG%3D3232765%3B%3B8338nu0mrj There was a question about purity, so the breeder did DNA testing showing that they were from the parents claimed.

And I've seen photos of a Malinois litter with multiple black/tan pups in the litter. But, if I remember correctly, at least one of the parents was from Holland, which immediately makes me go hmmmmmm :-\"


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## Michelle Reusser

I have seen blue and cinnamon Mals and they aren't even my breed. I have heard people talk about what lines produce them and trying to avoid that in their breedings but who really cares about color? Why are we making a big deal? If the blue carrier is a good match for your bitch shouldn't you breed to him to get the working dogs you want and not worry about looks? Dog people are funny, one minute thay talk about working qualities, especially Malinois people, that's what the breed is all about, yet they put down the colors or avoid them like the plague. I think we should quit with the crying and breed dogs that get the jobs done, who cares if they are purple or green? 

As we all know the peds are not acurate like was already stated and in many countries, different breeds are mixed, so different colors and patterns are going to happen out of the blue once in awhile. God forbid a GSD breeder use a tan dog, that color is on the outs right now! It's pretty sad when pigment is more important than performance. Yea, yea, yea, and everyone will deny it matters but the truth is, ugly puppies don't sell as fast, and ugly stud dogs don't get used as much as the pretty ones. So what if people comment on color in their sales adds, they are just trying to market their pups. If I have a mixed litter of GSD's, I would list all colors in the add.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote : Other than concentrating faults/weaknesses, which I doubt this guy can recognise?

Done intelligently, inbreeding can "fix" good genetic traits in a line, and I'd have nothing against it - but this would require some heavy culling to eliminate the faults... The dogs used would have to be outstanding, as well. A melanin mutation, such as the blues, livers, albino, weakens the nails, pads, coat, affects eyes (sight and sensitivity to UV), affects hearing, and weakens the immune system - in worst case. Correct?

So it becomes obvious that you do not know.

It is up to the breeder to do whatever the heck they want. If dogs were such a precious commodity that everyone says they are, then the shelters would be empty. I have had dog on a stick, and it is actually pretty good, maybe we start feeding our hungry with dog meat. Solve two problems at once.

I have seen 5 blue Mals ever, and I have seen none of the things you are describing in any of them. I think that it is about the same possibility that they get those defaults as any other dog. 

You need to start calling me my Leige. I do need a fool to jump about and squack, and do tricks.


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## Anna Kasho

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So it becomes obvious that you do not know.
> 
> It is up to the breeder to do whatever the heck they want. If dogs were such a precious commodity that everyone says they are, then the shelters would be empty. I have had dog on a stick, and it is actually pretty good, maybe we start feeding our hungry with dog meat. Solve two problems at once.
> 
> I have seen 5 blue Mals ever, and I have seen none of the things you are describing in any of them. I think that it is about the same possibility that they get those defaults as any other dog.
> 
> You need to start calling me my Leige. I do need a fool to jump about and squack, and do tricks.


 
Nah, we should just turn to canniballism, that would solve the problem at the roots. Pass the Soylent Green... :mrgreen: 

The melanin mutation weaknesses hold true for other animals that are bred for color, birds, cats, rats, snakes... You can't deny that close inbreeding will concenntrate the faults as well as the benifits, if you inbreed for several generations you'll see plenty of defects, including general poor immune system and low fertility. That's why we have all the wonderfull cancer-prone lab rats for drug testing, except many of those lines don't reproduce very well and can't survive outside of a disinfected lab environment. If melanin mutations did not affect the animal in any way, we'd see a lot more of them in wild animals - but we don't, because they are recessive and selected against. 5 blue dogs is really not much of a group, as compared to the thousands of normal colored mals out there. Pick 200 blues and 200 normal mals to compare, then I might change my mind.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have seen 5 blue Mals ever, and I have seen none of the things you are describing in any of them. I think that it is about the same possibility that they get those defaults as any other dog.


I think if we start to see breeders breeding for color, meaning not just to produce the occasional blue, but breeding blues to blues over the course of multiple generations, then we may start seeing the same health issues that plague blues in other breeds like the Doberman. I owned a blue Dobe, and she had a great coat. But she was out of a pedigree of blacks and reds. Like many of the blue Malinois I know (well out of a pedigree of fawns LOL). The coat problems seem more prevalent in the dogs that are from pedigrees with lots of dilutes in them, at least it was in the blue and fawn Dobes I knew. I have seen a blue Malinois with coat issues, but I don't know what the pedigree was since "it's a secret" :roll: So I don't know if it was from mainly normal colored dogs, or if there were a number of blues in the direct pedigree.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: If melanin mutations did not affect the animal in any way, we'd see a lot more of them in wild animals - but we don't, because they are recessive and selected against. 5 blue dogs is really not much of a group, as compared to the thousands of normal colored mals out there. Pick 200 blues and 200 normal mals to compare, then I might change my mind.

When you breed for working traits, color really doesn't come into play. The dogs are not bred for any rare bullshit, they are bred for their talent at the work, so that was my point. 

The jump from eating dog, which is a livestock animal, to humans was a bit much, and most of you have way too much fat to be worth anything. Kinda like trying to eat ****, just too greasy. Although as fat as America is, at least catching and killing would not be difficult. LOL


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## Natalie Heath

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> When you breed for working traits, color really doesn't come into play. The dogs are not bred for any rare bullshit, they are bred for their talent at the work, so that was my point.


I think that there needs to be a balance. If you breed for working traits only and don't take health into consideration, you will get great working dogs that fall apart physically and can't work. 

There is also a breed standard out there that should be followed if you want to call your dogs that particular breed. The last time I looked at it, dilutes were not in the breed standard for the Malinois. I don't think that getting some dilutes in a litter is necessarily a bad thing but I would think that breeding those dilutes (especially to other dilutes) would probably not be recommended given the health issues that can occur over time and repeated breeding with them. 

But, I'm not a breeder or a geneticist. Just a dog lover.

Natalie


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## Selena van Leeuwen

the liver = blue. When blues get older then they can look as the photo Kadi posted. Blues are diluted, can turn out with a blue-ish something in their coat or as a liver when they get adult.


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## Ian Forbes

Natalie Heath said:


> I think that there needs to be a balance. If you breed for working traits only and don't take health into consideration, you will get great working dogs that fall apart physically and can't work.


It depends on your definition of working ability. To my mind a dog that falls apart at an early age has poor working ability.

For a long time NVBK dogs were not 'health tested'. Because it took so long to title dogs to the highest level and because the sport is physically demanding, only strong, healthy dogs made it. IMO it made the Malinois what it is today.


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## Mike Schoonbrood




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## Gillian Schuler

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

iIt's like Ian says, either the sport or work determines the health of the dogs or, we have to check it out ourselves At one time, the Bernese Mountain Dog was used in Switzerland to pull the heavy milk pails up the mountain - and only the healthy ones were bred from obviously. You should see them today, mostly bone idle, dragged around by bone idle owners.


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## Gillian Schuler

I'm not a breeder but breeding for one colour out of a dog can not produce the sort of working dogs I want.
The Canadian White Shepherd, for instance, is now the Swiss White Shepherd, or similar. These dogs (there could be an excpetion) are on the whole very timid dog and jump a mile if you clap your hands in front of them.

Look at the Cairn Terrier, they bred the West Highland White out of them - the WHW now spends its time, trotting after it's owner through the town, guarding the expensive bouiques, etc. whereas the Cairn Terrier "would" have a chance of being a real dog.

I've seen black Malinois, blue GSDs etc. When colour becomes foresmost, ability and health seem to depart.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote : But, I'm not a breeder or a geneticist. Just a dog lover.

So you are responding to this thread...........why ???????????


Here is where you became apparently obvious.

Quote: I think that there needs to be a balance. If you breed for working traits only and don't take health into consideration, you will get great working dogs that fall apart physically and can't work. 

So structure and health are not important to working and would not be considered traits that are desireable????

Feel free to ask questions though.


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## Daryl Ehret

I haven't been following this thread, but here's some interesting related stuff. When sections of dna break to recombine later, they often break in the same "usual" sections. It so happens that right next to the gene determining some physical trait, might be commonly adjacent to or accompanied with a seemingly irrelevant trait controlling temperament.



> "Genetic traits are linked in complex ways. Over-selecting animals for physical traits often causes changes in behavior."
> 
> "Lean animals with fine bone are often more nervous compared to large-muscled animals with heavy bone."
> 
> "Nervousness is also common in animals with large areas of depigmented hair and skin. For example, dairymen report that mostly white Holstein cows are more nervous and difficult to handle for milking compared to more pigmented cows. Also, I recently observed some extremely abnormal behavior in a highly depigmented Paint stallion at a horse show. The stallion was so distressed by the sights and sounds of the show that he was literally eating up his stall. This behavior was in sharp contrast to the normal behavior town by a frightened horse."
> 
> The Way I See It: The Dangers of Trait Over-Selection
> 
> Temple Grandin Ph.D
> Professor of Animal Science, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado, 80523, USA
> Consultant and designer of livestock handling facilities, Grandin Livestock Handling Systems Inc.


Here's a link to many of her articles. http://www.grandin.com/references/


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## Daryl Ehret

With so many seemingly irrelevant traits coinciding with others affecting of health, temperament, and ability, it seems best to select for all that you can, rather than focus on a few at a time.



> Selection for a total score or index of net desirability is much more efficient than selection for one trait at a time.
> 
> Selection for several traits by using independent culling levels for each is more efficient than tandem selection for each trait one at a time, the relative efficiency increasing with the number of traits and intensity of culling. Selection on independent culling levels is less efficient than selection on total score but in some cases permits earlier selection without waiting until all traits are mature.
> 
> THE EFFICIENCY OF THREE METHODS OF SELECTION (Hazel & Lush)
> http://www.oxfordjournals.org/our_journals/jhered/freepdf/33-393.pdf


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## Natalie Heath

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote : But, I'm not a breeder or a geneticist. Just a dog lover.
> 
> So you are responding to this thread...........why ???????????


Because I wanted to. I'm allowed to have an opinion and express it too. 




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Here is where you became apparently obvious.
> 
> Quote: I think that there needs to be a balance. If you breed for working traits only and don't take health into consideration, you will get great working dogs that fall apart physically and can't work.
> 
> So structure and health are not important to working and would not be considered traits that are desireable????


I think perhaps that our differences are simply a matter of semantics. I was viewing the term "working traits" as referring to temperament and drives. 

I agree that health and structure are desirable traits. In any dog!! 

In one of your posts you mentioned that dogs are bred for their talent in the work.

A good friend of mine is a breeder. I've seen her import great working males with IPO III titles and then not use them in her breeding program because their x-rays showed hip dysplasia. Before x-rays and health clearances, those dogs would have been bred. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Feel free to ask questions though.


Oh, don't worry, I will. 

Natalie


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## Lisa Maze

Although I love Shutzhund/IPO, one of the saddest changes made to that sport is making the scaling wall and a-frame and taking away the pit jump. Although the original Schutzhund jumps were not as challenging as the current Ringsport jumps. I do think in part they are responsible for the majority of GSD's being less athletic than the average Malinois.

To me, a dog who has competed several years at French Ring 3 has been tested physically in a much more intense way than a dog who has competed a similar amount of time at IPO 3. 

I have often wondered if eliminating dogs from the breeding program who are mildly displastic and can still work in the ringsports withour lameness is a mistake. I have met several dysplastic Malinois who have worked into old age. Yet, I have seen very young dysplastic GSD's that are showing lameness even before the work becomes physically challenging. Certainly, structure plays a part in whether a dog with mild dysplasia will be functional or not.

Lisa


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## susan tuck

I have had dysplastic GSDs that never showed a sign of lameness. Some dogs are just better than others at overcoming and/or masking pain. I believe it might be a rather big risk to ignore even mild dysplasia in a breeding program.


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> I have had dysplastic GSDs that never showed a sign of lameness. Some dogs are just better than others at overcoming and/or masking pain. I believe it might be a rather big risk to ignore even mild dysplasia in a breeding program.


Yes; as Sue says, one of the big factors of dysplasia is the huge differences among dogs with the same clinical degree of dysplasia in how it affects the dog's function.

Even if you could predict that the progeny would have the same degree of dysplasia, you could never predict its effect on them, either function or pain.

JMO, after reading a lot of books, vet med handbooks, and especially Fred Lanting's articles.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I have had dysplastic GSDs that never showed a sign of lameness. Some dogs are just better than others at overcoming and/or masking pain. I believe it might be a rather big risk to ignore even mild dysplasia in a breeding program.


Quote: 
JMO, after reading a lot of books, vet med handbooks, and especially Fred Lanting's articles.

I did not get breeding dysplastic dogs from what was said, just slightly dysplastic. I also watched a lot of really good dogs get nuetered (Rotts) because of the dysplasia scare. I have sent xrays in for re-evaluation a nd gotten different ratings. Considering how pointless not breeding slightly dysplastic dogs was in the 70's and 80's was, as it made no difference, the breed was damaged permanently as responsible people followed the advice given by Fred and others. I am not saying that their information was terrible, but blindly following what is written by anyone, is not always the best way to go. Again, your not a breeder right?????

Conventional thought is not always the way to go. Consider how many of you really like a dog, and get a pup from him, while not considering getting a pup from his FATHER. How many litters were lost out when the brother of the really cool show dog was nuetered and sold as less than his brother???

Consider, with the x rays that were turned in,(Rotts) in the 80's, 55% were displastic. How many were not turned in due to the fact that there was no point spending the money on an obviously displastic dog????


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## susan tuck

Dysplasia "scare"? Yeah, it's scary (and heartbreaking) seeing really nice dogs crippled in their prime from such a debilitating disease.


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## Lisa Maze

susan tuck said:


> I have had dysplastic GSDs that never showed a sign of lameness. Some dogs are just better than others at overcoming and/or masking pain. I believe it might be a rather big risk to ignore even mild dysplasia in a breeding program.



Yes, but was your dog competing in one of the ringsports until he was six years old? My point is people often come up with anecdotal stories of dogs who came from Europe and competed in ringport for four or five years who were dysplastic according to OFA. My point is if a dog can compete in such a rigorous program with "clinical dysplasia", who cares. I am not suggesting you seek that dog out to breed but only wondering if a better criteria for selecting dogs for breeding for work is the work itself. Not the watered down version of it that Schutzhund has become but ringsport, a 45 minute program where the dog must jump very large, challenging jumps, do obedience and bitework (a much more strenuous and lengthy routine) all in a row without a break.

Do you think the GSD has a higher incidence of dysplasia because the initial breeding stock in Germany was inferior to the breeding stock in Belgium? Judging from early records and the geography of Europe, I woud argue the breeding stock was very similar. Hip x-rays have been mandatory in German GSD breeding stock for a long time and even now the majority of working Malinois breeders in Europe do not x-ray dogs. Yet, according to OFA the GSD has nearly four times the rate of dysplastic dogs that are found in the Malinois. Before you scream in-breeding, the SV has had restrictions on in-breeding co-efficients for a long time as well. We Malinois folks make breedings that would ******** in Appalacia swoon.

So what do you suppose is the reason?

My guess it is the rigor of the programs that majority of Malinois in Europe still participate in. I could be wrong but I would love to hear a better theory. Other than the fact Malinois are just superior to GSD's.

Lisa


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## susan tuck

If all dogs were able to mask/ignore pain and perform and if the worst you would get from breeding mildly dysplastic dogs would be more mildly dysplasic dogs then I guess it would be great, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that. 

Superior breed? Whatever, of course everyone thinks their breed and their sport is best, but that is a very childish argument and I refuse to go down that path. Have fun wallowing in the mud with Jeff, though.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: of course everyone thinks their breed and their sport is best,

Try ringsport, and then come back and tell me that it is not the better test for what is needed in a dog. Dysplasia does not occur in ev ery dog and heavily infested breeds like the Rott cannot afford to miss out on a great dog just because of slight dysplasia.


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## susan tuck

Lisa:
Regarding the example of dogs who at 6, can still do the work despite having dysplasia: Do you think the dog had no pain or was able to work despite the pain? When the dog got older was he still normal or were there consequences from working with dysplasia? What is behind the dog in his line with regards to dysplasia? For me, these would also be factors to consider before using such a dog in a breeding program. I think an exceptional dog who is rated borderline on hips does deserve consideration.

Jeff: With all your negativity and personal attacks you have reduced yourself to the level a troll. What you perceive as "droll and witty" others see as just plain imature and tiresome.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

THat is "theory breeding" which did not work. I would love to see the end of hip dysplasia for sure, but to exclude entirely because of it did a lot of damage to different breeds.

Damn science is not keeping up, and we should be spending more money to figure out how that damn recessive lives in the DNA and what we can do to get it to stop. THAT is where people aught to spend their money, and not PETA, and Humane society, and all that BS.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Yes, but was your dog competing in one of the ringsports until he was six years old?
> 
> 
> No, he was wasting dog food and oxygen=D>=D>=D>=D>


Predictable predictable predictable, Jeff.


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## Connie Sutherland

Natalie Heath said:


> Because I wanted to. I'm allowed to have an opinion and express it too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think perhaps that our differences are simply a matter of semantics. I was viewing the term "working traits" as referring to temperament and drives.
> 
> I agree that health and structure are desirable traits. In any dog!!
> 
> In one of your posts you mentioned that dogs are bred for their talent in the work.
> 
> A good friend of mine is a breeder. I've seen her import great working males with IPO III titles and then not use them in her breeding program because their x-rays showed hip dysplasia. Before x-rays and health clearances, those dogs would have been bred.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, don't worry, I will.
> 
> Natalie


Excellent. You immediately recognized the class bully and decided not to engage. 8)


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## Lisa Maze

susan tuck said:


> If all dogs were able to mask/ignore pain and perform and if the worst you would get from breeding mildly dysplastic dogs would be more mildly dysplasic dogs then I guess it would be great, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that.
> 
> Superior breed? Whatever, of course everyone thinks their breed and their sport is best, but that is a very childish argument and I refuse to go down that path. Have fun wallowing in the mud with Jeff, though.


Susan,

What I proposed to you was a theory based on my observations. What I asked of you was if you could think of an alternate theory to explain the same evidence I submitted other than Malinois just being a "superior" breed. 

I owned, trained, trialed and bred GSD's for years. When I became interested in ringsport, I chose the Malinois as they had considerably more success in the sport.

I spent as many years in Schutzhund as I have in the ringsports. My current dog is a SchH3, MR3, FR3. In many aspects I think Schutzhund is a better test of a breeding dog but not when it comes to athletisism and physical soundness. Do you disagree?

The ringsports do not test grip quality, vigilance (as the dog can guard out of obedience), aggression or the ability of a dog to perform with precision and power in the obediencec (Jeff hates it when I use power in reference to heeling).

My current dog was imported to be a French Ring competition dog (I did not import him, just bought him after he bit a half dozen people). I have spent much time and energy teaching him "schutzhund style" heeling (which recently got me bit in the leg in the Defense of Handler exercise. Guess everyone is right when they say you do not want the dog looking at you when the decoy hits you), a "Schutzhund style" hold and bark (the dog is only required to bark three times in the blind in ringsport). I have even done a bit of work on the sleeve to evaluate his grip and strike.

So, now can we get back to the discussion at hand? 

GSD's, Malinois and Dutch shepherds all started from landrace dogs in regions very close to each other. Overall, I think all three breeds started on equal ground and I have no doubt just over a hundred years ago they were more similar than different. The GSD has had much stricter breeding requirements when it comes to hip evaluations and in breeding restrictions. Yet, according to OFA, the GSD is nearly four times more likely to develop hip dysplasia than the Malinois.

Do you have a theory as to why this is the case?


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## Lisa Maze

susan tuck said:


> Lisa:
> Regarding the example of dogs who at 6, can still do the work despite having dysplasia: Do you think the dog had no pain or was able to work despite the pain? When the dog got older was he still normal or were there consequences from working with dysplasia? What is behind the dog in his line with regards to dysplasia? For me, these would also be factors to consider before using such a dog in a breeding program. I think an exceptional dog who is rated borderline on hips does deserve consideration.
> 
> Jeff: With all your negativity and personal attacks you have reduced yourself to the level a troll. What you perceive as "droll and witty" others see as just plain imature and tiresome.


With the difficulty of the ringsport jumps, I do not think a dog jumping max could just be masking pain. Any dog who competes in dogsports for a lifetime will have a arthritis. The two dogs I am thinking of aged as gracefully as any dogs I have seen. As far as what was behind the dogs, as imports with French and Belgian parents, none of the dogs in the pedigree were tested for hip dysplasia. I have seen other dogs who competed in ring who are OFA excellent who broke down at a much earlier age. 

Again, I am not advising making breedings to dysplatic dogs. Just wondering if the data we are basing our breedings on is really an adequate means of selecting breeding stock.

Lisa


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## susan tuck

Lisa Maze said:


> With the difficulty of the ringsport jumps, I do not think a dog jumping max could just be masking pain. Any dog who competes in dogsports for a lifetime will have a arthritis. The two dogs I am thinking of aged as gracefully as any dogs I have seen. As far as what was behind the dogs, as imports with French and Belgian parents, none of the dogs in the pedigree were tested for hip dysplasia. I have seen other dogs who competed in ring who are OFA excellent who broke down at a much earlier age.
> 
> Again, I am not advising making breedings to dysplatic dogs. Just wondering if the data we are basing our breedings on is really an adequate means of selecting breeding stock.
> 
> Lisa


I think throwing a really great dog out of a breeding program based soley on mild dysplasia would be a mistake providing you can breed back in acceptable hips by the bitch (or dog) used in the other half of the equation. 

So I guess maybe the question becomes what are bad hips? Is it possible that the grading system needs to change so that what is now considered borderline or even mild should be included as passing, especially in breeds where hips graded as such have proven not to be an issue to the overwhelming majority in that breed? Is the extreme angulation seen in some breeds a factor as to whether only dogs with hips of a certain grade or better should be bred?


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> JMO, after reading a lot of books, vet med handbooks, and especially Fred Lanting's articles.
> ...................................................
> 
> 
> I am not saying that their information was terrible, but blindly following what is written by anyone, is not always the best way to go.
> 
> Again, your not a breeder right?????


No; I thought my disclaimer that I was just saying what I had read was really clear. :lol: I'm not a breeder.


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## Daryl Ehret

susan tuck said:


> I think throwing a really great dog out of a breeding program based soley on mild dysplasia would be a mistake providing you can breed back in acceptable hips by the bitch (or dog) used in the other half of the equation.
> 
> So I guess maybe the question becomes what are bad hips? Is it possible that the grading system needs to change so that what is now considered borderline or even mild should be included as passing, especially in breeds where hips graded as such have proven not to be an issue to the overwhelming majority in that breed? Is the extreme angulation seen in some breeds a factor as to whether only dogs with hips of a certain grade or better should be bred?



http://www.ehretgsd.com/Best-producers-HD1-60.pdf

The best hip producers are predominantly from workinglines, and some of the best ones at that. My "top 60" list derived from the best 1000 producers under the SV shows that less than 1% of those 1000 produced 60%-90% a1 hips. Factoring in portions of offspring that were un-certified, in total 28%-52% a1's, so probably in actuality produced no better than 28%-74% a1 hips. I'd really like to see the hard data on mals and dutchies (not only themselves, but what they have thrown).











This table was based on an OFA study of 444,451 progeny from rated parents, indicating ratios of normal to dysplastic results in offspring. Example: OFA Good bred to OFA Good, resulted in 10% dysplastic progeny. I think it's significant to point out that breeding Fair to Fair produced worse results than breeding Excellent to Dysplastic. Keep in mind though, that's just the offspring's phenotype, not their genotype.


These tables show OFA trends between the gsd's and the mals since 1980.


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## Gillian Schuler

The pity of it is, is that bad to very bad hip x-ray evaluations never get sent to the breed club and therefore don't appear in the statistics. Some x-rays which the vet himself feels qualified to evaluate, don't get evaluated and a too large number of owners are not in the least bit interested, even in working line breeds, to have the dog x-rayed. Even with GSDs, so-called competent handlers have told me, they knew their dog had HD so there was no point in x-raying and others have said their dog is so athletic, they just know it's got good hips.

A number of breeders have their dogs x-rayed as soon as possible so that if it has got HD, it will most likely get a better grade. 

The breeder of one of my dogs charged the buyers the "normal" price, plus the charge for having the dog x-rayed which she refunded after the dog was ex-rayed, evaluated and sent in to the breed club. Even then, the whole litter was not x-rayed.


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## Daryl Ehret

The list I made shows both % xrayed and % not xrayed, and a formulated estimate between. For example the #1 producer, Aly vom Vordersteinwald had only 58.1% progeny xrayed, 89.6% of those were a1's, but only 52.0% of his overall progeny were confirmed "a1's". Allowing half of Aly's non-xrayed progeny a 89.6% "supposed a1", I propose an estimated breed value (EBV) of 73.51%. If a producer didn't have nearly half of its progeny xrayed and a reasonable sample, it was discounted from this list. The minimum requirements for a producer to make the cut in my list is after the ">" symbol under the column heading.

That list was made for my personal use to narrow the focus of my attention on particular west bloodlines, and perhaps shouldn't be taken out of context. I wanted to identify the best producers of hip-health and strong sporting ability, and concluded there's alot of common names between the separate studies. _That's really the whole point I'm trying to make in this post._


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## Gillian Schuler

Yes, I realised why you'd done it but it still prompted me to go a bit off topic in interest of the breed.


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## Konnie Hein

The liver-colored SAR malinois from Illinois was bred by a guy named David Lenders. I've never met him. He supposedly was a SchH and/or FR decoy and now lives in Virginia and breeds horses. Not sure if he still breeds dogs. The dam of this litter was owned by a lady in Kentucky or Tennessee, but I don't know her name. No idea who the sire was, but he supposedly was one heck of a working dog. I could probably find out if anybody is really interested. 

3 or 4 of the pups from this litter were colored this way and the others were red/fawn with black masks and normal colored eyes. Some of them had soft ears that never came up. I met these pups when they were around 8 or so weeks of age. All of them were awesome puppies and I would have taken any of them home with me (but they were all spoken for). Very high drive and confident buggers - swam out into a cold pond repeatedly to retrieve some sticks that were thrown out there. We had a hard time getting them back because they wouldn't quit and were totally unafraid of the water. Finally somebody had to brave the cold water to swim out there to get these pups so they wouldn't freeze to death or drown from fatigue. One of the pups from that litter is also a FEMA USAR dog on VATF-2. I've never seen him work, but I've heard he's awesome. 

And, Jeff - you keep telling people that their comments aren't of value because they are not breeders. I'm not sure how being able to put a male and female dog together to produce puppies would instantly qualify anybody as having the smarts to figure out breeding genetics. Any asshat can breed dogs. Breeding good dogs, on the other hand, is a completely different thing all together.


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## Daryl Ehret

_"All the mathematics in the world goes out the window, statistics fly out the door, when you breed two dogs."_

Did you notice the dramatic improvement of Belgian Malinios over 24 years? The genetic load for HD was nearly as prevalent as that of gsd's two dozen years back (in the U.S. anyway). What is so different in mal breeding that has made leaps and bounds over the gsd, who has shown little improvement at all!? My hunch: the selection criteria set at higher standards for the application they are tested (knpv, ring, whatever), and appearantly strong linebreeding on proven performers. Being bred primarily for it's performance, poor hips probably couldn't go far, right? Is the health "proven" in the capability of doing the work? How frequently are mals hip-certified anyway? Is hip certification a breeding requirement?


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## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> The pity of it is, is that bad to very bad hip x-ray evaluations never get sent to the breed club and therefore don't appear in the statistics. Some x-rays which the vet himself feels qualified to evaluate, don't get evaluated and a too large number of owners are not in the least bit interested, even in working line breeds, to have the dog x-rayed. Even with GSDs, so-called competent handlers have told me, they knew their dog had HD so there was no point in x-raying and others have said their dog is so athletic, they just know it's got good hips.
> 
> A number of breeders have their dogs x-rayed as soon as possible so that if it has got HD, it will most likely get a better grade.
> 
> The breeder of one of my dogs charged the buyers the "normal" price, plus the charge for having the dog x-rayed which she refunded after the dog was ex-rayed, evaluated and sent in to the breed club. Even then, the whole litter was not x-rayed.


I think this is a big issue, at least in my breed, and only causes skewed overall figures and in the end does not serve the breed.


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

I know this is an old post but never to late to return to it

Most of you know this dogs, but match perfectly with all aspects of this post

Color variation, pedigree information etc

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/296960/Ledicky-Dances-with-Malinois

take a look at the sire and dam of this dog

A qote from the breeder of this dogs, one of my favorite trainers



> Malinois is the working dog from belgium, doesnt matters its color or dogs involved on breeding


Open to your comments


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## mike suttle

Konnie Hein said:


> The liver-colored SAR malinois from Illinois was bred by a guy named David Lenders. I've never met him. He supposedly was a SchH and/or FR decoy and now lives in Virginia and breeds horses. Not sure if he still breeds dogs. The dam of this litter was owned by a lady in Kentucky or Tennessee, but I don't know her name. No idea who the sire was, but he supposedly was one heck of a working dog. I could probably find out if anybody is really interested.
> 
> 3 or 4 of the pups from this litter were colored this way and the others were red/fawn with black masks and normal colored eyes. Some of them had soft ears that never came up. I met these pups when they were around 8 or so weeks of age. All of them were awesome puppies and I would have taken any of them home with me (but they were all spoken for). Very high drive and confident buggers - swam out into a cold pond repeatedly to retrieve some sticks that were thrown out there. We had a hard time getting them back because they wouldn't quit and were totally unafraid of the water. Finally somebody had to brave the cold water to swim out there to get these pups so they wouldn't freeze to death or drown from fatigue. One of the pups from that litter is also a FEMA USAR dog on VATF-2. I've never seen him work, but I've heard he's awesome.
> 
> And, Jeff - you keep telling people that their comments aren't of value because they are not breeders. I'm not sure how being able to put a male and female dog together to produce puppies would instantly qualify anybody as having the smarts to figure out breeding genetics. Any asshat can breed dogs. Breeding good dogs, on the other hand, is a completely different thing all together.


I know David Lynders very well. He is a very knowledgable dog guy, and a great trainer. The lady that you are talking about is from TN, I also know her very well, but will not drag her name in here. She is a USAR handler with TN and OH. I know both of these folks very well and in fact they both have gotten dogs from me. (although this liver colored dog is not from my lines) But I do know the liver dogs mother and father.
Wierd that you should mention these two people......they are both coming here this week to look at dogs. Small world!


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