# Bred Bitch Diets



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Just bred my female Bouv and wondering about any good diets and how they may help later on. Had no issues before but always looking for that new thing. Higher fat diets any good?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Besides increasing the energy content of the food appropriately to meet her growing energy requirements (and growing belly!), include carbohydrates, at least toward the end. Exclusion of carbohydrates from a pregnant bitches diet decreases pup survival. 

I'm not patient enough today to dig out the references of studies that have been done on this. Maybe someone else will do that and we'll get an idea of how-much-is-enough carbohydrate to prevent a high litter mortality rate.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

John Hilton in the Canadian Vet Review said that while dogs can supply their own glucose needs from amino acids, and that puppies fed carb-free diets maintain normal blood glucose concentrations, still pregnant and lactating bitches have increased need for quick supplies of glucose, and benefit from carb additions, and yes, that hypoglycemia in the no-carb mother at whelping time caused higher puppy mortality.

He also said that higher protein in later pregnancy worked as well in other studies as the addition of carbs to prevent that hypoglycemia and related pup deaths.

I don't have the citation or text, but maybe Maren will see this.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I don't change the diet (raw) all that much until later in the pregnancy - not good to have an overfat bitch. I adjust( increase) as she gets farther on in pregnancy. When she gets a large load of puppies on I spit into smaller meals as sometimes they won't eat all their daily requirement in one shot (getting crowded in there!).
After whelping is when they really need the grub put to them.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> John Hilton in the Canadian Vet Review said that while dogs can supply their own glucose needs from amino acids, and that puppies fed carb-free diets maintain normal blood glucose concentrations, still pregnant and lactating bitches have increased need for quick supplies of glucose, and benefit from carb additions, and yes, that hypoglycemia in the no-carb mother at whelping time caused higher puppy mortality.
> 
> He also said that higher protein in later pregnancy worked as well in other studies as the addition of carbs to prevent that hypoglycemia and related pup deaths.
> 
> I don't have the citation or text, but maybe Maren will see this.


I don't have the citation either (I don't have a copy of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition IV, but I'm pretty sure it's in there...incidentally, they're supposed to be coming out with SACN V soon, yay), but yeah, late gestation and lactation is the one life stage in canines where carbs are needed. For other life stages, dogs and cats can do gluconeogenesis and essentially make glucose biochemically. Now, whether a small amount of carbs can be helpful is a different discussion, as we know.  

Howard, an all life stages commercial kibble (can't recall what you feed at the moment) should be fine, they'll just need more of it, particularly when lactating. You can tell because the label should say something like: 



> Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures/AAFCO formulations substantiate that Brand XYZ Dry Dog Food provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages.


I'd also recommend having your bitch drink filtered water (like one of those on the tap filter things). No need to go for bottled water as that's expensive and wastes bottles, but with the endocrine disruption background I have, me and all my dogs get filtered water,especially if you live in an agricultural area. Endocrine disrupting chemicals tend to have a more permanent effect_ in utero_ while they are still developing than later in life.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Re: the carb issue

How do they meet this demand in the wild?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Re: the carb issue
> 
> How do they meet this demand in the wild?



It has been suggested that pregnant bitches may consume both more of the gut contents of prey and extra protein.

The U.C. Gray Wolf Project videos could not demonstrate that, but did show that the new mother did both while nursing pups.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Re: the carb issue
> 
> How do they meet this demand in the wild?


Wolves and other wild canids often eat lots of small rodents whole (who eat grains and grasses) or rabbits along with ingesting fruits and veggies themselves. Hence why I cringe when people proclaim they are feeding a "whole prey model diet" of chicken quarters or backs/necks and some occasional liver, as if wolves have the luxury of 10 lbs bags of chicken quarters from Wal-Mart.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'd also recommend having your bitch drink filtered water (like one of those on the tap filter things). No need to go for bottled water as that's expensive and wastes bottles, but with the endocrine disruption background I have, me and all my dogs get filtered water,especially if you live in an agricultural area. Endocrine disrupting chemicals tend to have a more permanent effect_ in utero_ while they are still developing than later in life.


 I live on a farm and have a deep well. Spirits wasn't what you had in mind when you said "bottled water?"  I mix Diamond and other higher end brands together. Have had no issues with it and with adding deer meat to the mix.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have had good success with bil jac puppy food. Whatever else you throw in there, is up to you.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I am getting ready to whelp my first litter. I have been talking with my Vet. She said that increasing calories is not necassary. I asked this same question. She said that the need to increase intake is a myth. the mothers hormones would regulate her energy levels, and that as the pregency goes on she will be more stagnent. She said just keeping her at a healthy size (can feel ribs but cannot see them) is what we are looking for. And that increasing calories may lead to weight to gain that could actually be a determent to her health. 

The one thing she did state is that to maybe start her on some folic acid about 6 months before the breeding, this will aid brain development of the pups.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OH JEEEEEEZZUUUUUUUUS you bred that cur ?? LOL


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Not yet...Not till December.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Who is she getting bred to ??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Right now it looks like Vion la Maschera di Ferro. Addie is expected to come into heat in the middle of Dec. And Vion will be competeing at the Mali Natl's in the first week of Dec. If she earlier than I thought than obviously I cannot do it. If that happens I may just wait till a young dog who is only 13 months old right now turns 2. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/185740/Temple-of-the-Tree's-Caden

Vion's draw is the line on G'bibber and G'vitou. Also I am sure you remember my homeboy Danny from the AWMA. He reccomened Vion as a nice stud (saw him at the Nat'ls), and also met his father Gismo...who was not a super point dog. He did have some great scores, but for the most part just a lot of dog. 

The second dog Temple of the tree's Caden to me is actually a more exciting combo...Just because I like the top half of his ped alot. And looking at combos of crossing Klemm lines with Elgos lines has been very successful.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't care for the rottenfokkers as I call them. they are a bit to edgy, but more to the run off to momma side.

I hate when it is a timing thing, you can almost certainly bet that she will screw that up.

Good luck.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

James Downey said:


> The second dog Temple of the tree's Caden to me is actually a more exciting combo...Just because I like the top half of his ped alot. And looking at combos of crossing Klemm lines with Elgos lines has been very successful.


Caden's dam - Darka - sounds like a great bitch. I've met her littermate, Danyo (http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/62592/Danyo-van-de-Berlex-Hoeve ) who is a police dog in NJ and he's a great dog. Big and puma-like, great drive with incredible jumping skills. Love that dog.

Jeff - you don't like the German stuff?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not in general. Of course there are always dogs, but too many of them seem to be GSD's in a Mal suit. They look great in Sch, but they suck in ring.

A good example is the rottenfocker that Tim ran off the OG in Prague. I am not going to be a big fan of curs ever. He and others have told me it's a nice dog. Not in my book.

Edgy dogs are just that, on the edge. Not a fan. The dog you posted a link to has too small amount of German lines to really matter.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Edgy dogs are just that, on the edge. Not a fan. The dog you posted a link to has too small amount of German lines to really matter.


Ya, he doesn't strike me as being the German type in any way. Very powerful dog though - a friend of mine has worked him on a suit and says he's a very tough/strong dog. No edge (at least, not the edge you're describing).


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Elgos is very close.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Caden's dam - Darka - sounds like a great bitch. I've met her littermate, Danyo (http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/62592/Danyo-van-de-Berlex-Hoeve ) who is a police dog in NJ and he's a great dog. Big and puma-like, great drive with incredible jumping skills. Love that dog.
> 
> Jeff - you don't like the German stuff?


 
I met Darka when she was with her first owner, Afsheen. When she was small little baby. Then at 2 Danny Craig bought her. She is a little edgy, Defintly...In my book Darka could possibly be the best female in the county. 

Also Darka x Igor Vom's mikes place, threw some incredible puppies. Bert Aerts in belgium did a breeding with Douska (Darka and Danyo's sister) and nero vom haus mecki (a klemm line dog) and had similar results. So, I think this a "safer" route. And I am getting some vids of Caden, I will post them when I get them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Thats fine for Sch, but how would she fare in ring ??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Thats fine for Sch, but how would she fare in ring ??


What are we comparing her to? How well Buko has fared? 

Why would you ask such a shitty question? You know as well as I do no matter what I say I will be speculating. Since the dog has never done a ring trial. So, if your inclined to know how nice she is.....ask your around. I do not think I am alone in my assessment of Darka. But again it's just my opinion. 

And Just to Defens the Vom Rotten Falken lines...I have seen LDS dogs get run, Ot Viotsha, Berlex Hoeve, Danskejold, Contes Hoffman, Duex Pottios, Kukays,....I think seeing a dog get run is not indiciative of the entire line.

What is indicative though is that Klemm won a worlds, and then went to produce a lot of good dogs. He has got to be one of the best producers in the last couple of years. Those are some shit lines?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I think it would be cool to see Darka do a ring sport. 

I like some dogs I've seen from German lines - in particular Klemm. My dog's dam is partly from those lines and she's supposedly pretty incredible. My dog is not so bad either, but we have yet to prove much of anything via titles.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What are we comparing her to? How well Buko has fared? 

You can talk all the shit you want about my dog, but he ain't runnin. 

I will ask you this. Is the dog gonna run ?? I think that you know the answer.


As far as seeing all those dogs get run off, it just goes to show you how clueless people are, and that they are willing to go out and work a cur. This shit is gonna get worse. I am telling you the Gods honest truth. They will start making the sports even easier than they already have, and start handing out titles. Watch.

Unless people like you, can pull your head out of your ass and say something like......well yes Jeff, there is a good possibility that the dog is a cur, as edgyness is a gay trait for ****sticks like me to badly judge a dogs quality.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

James, what are the bloodlines of your female? Just curious as I've had good luck using Master with my one female. She's a Zodt daugher (going to Grobber) and crossed very well with Master as he goes back to Espoir (to Grobber). Have always liked the results of crossing the Kim, and Espoir and Cartouche (G'Vitou, G'Bibber) stuff too. Sometimes a bit hard-headed, but strong with big grips.

I've seen Darka in action here in SoCal at a local trial and she's a spitfire...small, speedy, flashy.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: What are we comparing her to? How well Buko has fared?
> 
> You can talk all the shit you want about my dog, but he ain't runnin.
> 
> ...


As for talking shit...You do not think your question was shitty?
I will speculate. I think Darks is frigging awesome. and cappable of going all that way at any sport...I think anybody in there right mind would be a fool not to want own a bitch like Darka. A bitch like her is like a piece of gold...hard to find.

Jeff, I am not talking shit. You tried feeding me a shit burger, with that Sch---Ring comment. So here have a bite. You talk like your the best trainer ever. And that Buko is just this crazy wild animal. 1 of these things is true. Either the dog, or the handler (i do not think it's both) is incapable at this point of putting a 2 on the dog. It's notshit I am talking it's the truth. And in sports, critism comes hard. Do not want it? then keep your ass in the bleachers. My dog only has a 2....MY fault. Handler, not quite good enought to get a three yet. 

And that whole Tough Guy, I went to jail shit...you can pull that shit with the 40 lbs overweight dog trainers. But keep that shit for those whom are intimated by it. I have learned one lesson, The bigger the front, the bigger the back. And your fronts pretty big...

Keep calling all our dogs Curs...Cause my Cur, seems to have the dogs in her ped that have done something in thier life....Oh and have seem to be incredibly healthy also.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> James, what are the bloodlines of your female? Just curious as I've had good luck using Master with my one female. She's a Zodt daugher (going to Grobber) and crossed very well with Master as he goes back to Espoir (to Grobber). Have always liked the results of crossing the Kim, and Espoir and Cartouche (G'Vitou, G'Bibber) stuff too. Sometimes a bit hard-headed, but strong with big grips.
> 
> I've seen Darka in action here in SoCal at a local trial and she's a spitfire...small, speedy, flashy.


Debbie you have Mail.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: As for talking shit...You do not think your question was shitty?

No I don't.

Quote: 
Jeff, I am not talking shit. You tried feeding me a shit burger, with that Sch---Ring comment

No, you were eating one, and I tried to stop you. You continued to eat it. I don't think you know what is what.

Quote: And in sports, critism comes hard. Do not want it? then keep your ass in the bleachers. 

Why should I take you seriously ?? Do I seem to care about your opinion more than just making fun of you ?? THe answer is no, in case you were confused by anything.

It is just fun to watch you get all emotional, and worked up. That, and I think that people should be told if they are working a cur. Too bad that the others that think so are not speaking up. LOL

Quote: And that whole Tough Guy, I went to jail shit...you can pull that shit with the 40 lbs overweight dog trainers. But keep that shit for those whom are intimated by it. I have learned one lesson, The bigger the front, the bigger the back. And your fronts pretty big...

So now you are gonna beat me up ?? Not likely. You can squawk all you want, but I would laugh my ass off if you actually had the stones to swing. LOL

Quote: Keep calling all our dogs Curs...Cause my Cur, seems to have the dogs in her ped that have done something in thier life....Oh and have seem to be incredibly healthy also.

Yes, curs can be healthy as well. Can't get a three in Sch with a mal. Need I say more ?? I think that says enough. : ) no need to capitolize cur, it is not appropriate.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Interesting thread called "Bred Bitch Diets." :roll:

Good thing I didn't really expect any information.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This shit is free, what do you get for nothing ?? Breed a bitch and feed her different shit if you want to know what works, OR, you could just look a t the beginning where people talked about it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... what do you get for nothing ?? .


This.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well then, there you go, you got what you paid for.

I can do this all day.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .... you could just look a t the beginning where people talked about it.


Rather than this super-fascinating end where the topic veered into valuable training stuff.


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