# Raising a litter



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

What will you do with young puppies?

Read just now on fb that a breeder ( healthy litter, mumfine, herder) is suplementing and handling pups 2 a day. I wonder why, more in the league of Don T. 
I see when birting begins if i hear puppy sounds, check a few on how much there are, and leave it up to mum. I dont supplement the week and up till about 3.5-4 wks i check them about twice a day. If they start eating mums kible or have other visible needs for other than mums milk i start with weaning, usually around3.5-4.5 wks. Than interaction begins with me. 
Dont interfer with mum if she decides that pups must lay out of the whelping box. Had several litters that were raised out side the box, only provide a dry spot for them. 

Basically, birthing and raising is as natural as possible.
Just try to understand a differwnt view.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I have the pups born in whelping doghouse outside and other than clipping dewclaws at 3 days I don't do much but peek in the doghouse a few times a day- more for my entertainment than anything else. Once eyes are open and they start to come out of the doghouse I have to keep more of an eye on what's going on as my bitches always decide they want to move puppies (like under the shed etc) and I have given up and let them as long as they pick a safe location. I start feeding them ground meat at about 3-4 weeks depends on if they look interested in Mums food or not how early.
I don't usually wean them and just let them and Mum work that out and they usually are weaned by 6 weeks on thier own. My current litter is 12 weeks and Mum still barfs for them occassionally.... I have raised litters indoors but it is a PITA and I think puppies raised outside are cleaner. My puppy yard is big so it is easier to keep them active and entertained with digging and destroying stuff.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I have a dog door in the clubhouse by the field and that's where the mother whelps since we do not hold club training here anymore. The box has some hay in it and when she's close I start locking her in so she doesn't whelp in a self made den. I come out in the morning and there's puppies. I don't hang out and help or anything like that. Used to when I first started 20 years ago. Then I check on them when I come to feed the bitch and check her water, etc...2-3 times per day. I do touch and handle the pups some from the start and check them out to keep an eye on whose growing. I don't supplement or help any of them. The mother produces plenty of milk. 

9 days old: 









16 days old:









I start offering the ground raw to the pups when they are 2+ weeks old to work toward weaning. By 3 weeks, they are not in the whelping box, but outside in a puppy pen and mom can jump in and out to feed them and the pups can walk off from their sleeping area to poop. They have a crate or box they can sleep in or get out of the weather in if it's cold. They have obstacles and "junk" to bite and places to explore in the puppy area. 

27 days old below:









They are weaned from mom around 5 weeks old and then if it's a big litter I put 1/2 in another pen as it's just easier to deal with 2 smaller groups for me. 

At different ages, I do "torture" them with photo ops such as putting them in the pipes. Also having the pups laying on bite equipment at a very young age for humorous pixs. 

19 days old:








At 8 weeks or after they go to their homes.


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## Holden Sawyer (Feb 22, 2011)

They call it bio sensor or early neurological stimulation. I haven't been able to find a serious reference to it but supposedly developed by the u.s. military way back (1970's?). The breeder starts handling the pups right away, nothing scary, just hold the pup upside down a few seconds and some other exercises. Supposedly gives the pups stress, and they do better with stress later. I have NO idea if it is just bunk or if any legitimate studies have backed it up. I can imagine being outside with the wind blowing and mom doing mom stuff would give the pups a fair amount of stimulation - in other words I don't know if the control group was outdoor pups or pups that were raised indoors in a very sterile environment with no handling at all.

Anyway it is quite popular with certain breeders. Mine was raised that way and he certainly is stable as a box of rocks, but that totally could be genetics. I inadvertently raised my pups that way because they were just so darned fun to pick up and mess around with. I wish I had thought of torturing them with pictures.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Speaking of "torture" here are some more even more ridiculous ones we've done :grin:




























13 day old mals:


















green thing on her back is some sort of parrot:


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Debbie 

what kind of birds are those? Not the parrot


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

LOL...that is terrible...hilarious...


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Debbie
> 
> what kind of birds are those? Not the parrot


Those are baby emus. Those pixs w/birds were taken at my friend and co-breeder, Debbie Pluss' ranch. They raise emus and have a company for the products "jurassic secret" sold at Henry's and such stores.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Here is "my" bird and I wouldn't want to put it around really young pups or kittens. "My" is really not correct as there is no cage and the bird can go as it wants. Pix taken on my porch inwhich the owl can leave if it wants. Mostly it wants to be in the house, but sometimes I don't have the time to run behind it and clean as it's not house-trained.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

One thing, I've notices that when I switched to raw that the puppies seem to start eating earlier than they did when I was feeding soaked kibble. The raw is there for the mom and the pups start eating it sooner than they did under the same scenario with the kibble.

With the raw feeding, the bitch even with a large litter will get over-weight if I'm not careful and the pups are really plump.

Oh and if there's a bad pup..well, that's owl food..kidding. :grin:


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

i'm fairly hands-on with pups from day 1, just because i like them. they're whelped in the house & i've been lucky so far to not lose any aside from a couple that didn't make it through labor/were still born. i don't believe in extreme measures to save them though. i enjoy going watching them, picking them up etc, so i do - usually only once per day. the dam tends to their needs - i don't bottle feed or anything like that, but i do handle them. i use the ENS as a part of that too. 
at 4 weeks, the litter & mom go outside into a 10x20 pen w/a built in obstacle course & a big ole' oak tree in the middle. that's when weaning/feeding raw starts, and mom is out between 5 & 6 weeks. this is when they start to get one on one time & i really start to figure out who they're going to be when they grow up, so i do a lot of interaction with them over the next couple of weeks. 
long story short - i'm pretty middle-of-the-road when it comes to my pups. LOL


**the owl is really cool!**


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

owl wasn't so cool this week as he's still not perfect about flying yet (actually his landings) and I was on the cell phone and he tried to land on my head and I got a talon in the eyebrow and scratched my cheek. No pixs for awhile of me. Not his fault and I wasn't paying attention enough. He's very gentle with his talons and beak with me normally, but needs to perfect the landings and learn what is off limits..like my head! ](*,)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Barn owls are freakin' scary when they are pissed off. I did a little bit of work for the raptor rehab project in vet school, so one night I came in and helped feed some of the hospitalized birds. One cage was covered in a sheet and no one told me what was under there, except I could hear some god awful sounds. It was a very very unhappy barn owl that sounded like a demon hissing, screeching, and clicking at me. I tossed it its mouse and left it alone!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I only breed when I have time to, I dont believe in breeding just to breed, in saying that I have had very few litters over the years do to time constraints. My litter is born with no help if at all possible, if there going to die oh well they die, I also like Kristin dont believe in bottle feeding, either they figure it out with momma or more die oh well its nature. I am to also pretty hands on with the litter with handling them, checking on the ones that are alive and strong. I pic them up play loud differing sounds for them in different volumes ( trains, guns,screaming, traffic, howling, sirens, etc...... you get the drift ). I also deworm mom 24 hours after the last pup being born, and do the pups every two weeks till they leave. I take the whole litter in for weights, health checks, dewormings,etc...... 

Once there mobile obstacles start, enviromental stimulus gets more in depth, car rides start, scatter there food teaching them to use their noses, working them in just rags and burlaps in packs - pairs and indivudually. These are just some of the things I do, and if I cant give a puppy this kind of time then I just don't breed. This is just me though.

heres just a quick shot of the last litter about two years ago come october, they were raised indoors in a climate control garage that has heat and AC


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Crap, I don't do much of anything with them. Solid is solid and those that are not the people may as well see to judge. Believe it or not, the solid ones scare a lot of people compared to the quieter less confident ones. The first time in the house is when people are there and the good pups are racing around pulling thins of the the chairs, pulling table cloths off the tables, etc


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I pic them up play loud differing sounds for them in different volumes ( trains, guns,screaming, traffic, howling, sirens, etc...... you get the drift ).

Saving Private Ryan on the surround sound pretty much covers all the loud noises needed.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

One of the best kennels I saw was in Germany where we picked up a Fila Brasileiro puppy. The pups were in some sort of underground room, no day light but when their eyes opened they were subjected to cats, goats, children, adults (the breeder ran a horse stable (translation sucks). 

The worst was when we bought our Briard from my girlfriend here in Switzerland. When I say the worst, I mean, the husband cut the umbilical cord himself, removed the pups when they were threatening to harm the bitches teats with their sharp claws and generally stuck his nose into things he had no idea about. 

I was lucky. I asked my girlfriend to tell me which dog was the fastest to the teat and she timed them. I got a fearless Briard (not so seldom at that time and after even worse) and never regretted buying him. He passed through IPO 3 with excellent results but more important than that, he was the ideal companion as he was stable, athletic, energetic but quiet in the home.

What I want to say is, bring the dog up how and where you want, genetics will out.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Barn owls are freakin' scary when they are pissed off. I did a little bit of work for the raptor rehab project in vet school, so one night I came in and helped feed some of the hospitalized birds. One cage was covered in a sheet and no one told me what was under there, except I could hear some god awful sounds. It was a very very unhappy barn owl that sounded like a demon hissing, screeching, and clicking at me. I tossed it its mouse and left it alone!


Sounds like the owl was very scared. Injured or wild animals can be that way. 

It's amazing the various sounds they can make. When greeting someone they know, they twitter to you in almost a purring sound and groom you with their beak. I walked outside at 5am and mine flew on my head (It still needs reminding not to do that). Then we came inside and I'm having coffee. And it's practicing 'killing' a stuffed toy right now on the computer desk and hopping from the desk to the chairs to the floor. This one is about 2 months old and is about ready to leave and be independent if it wants.

My favorite type of owl is the burrowing owls (Johnny Owls) which are active during the day. They seem to be more intelligent and more social and they live in groups. Their habitat in SoCal has been destroyed and their numbers too from construction since they live in holes in the ground. They are much smaller, thus much safer to be around.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> I pic them up play loud differing sounds for them in different volumes ( trains, guns,screaming, traffic, howling, sirens, etc...... you get the drift ).
> 
> Saving Private Ryan on the surround sound pretty much covers all the loud noises needed.


 
:lol::lol::lol: Close but no cigar, its not a movie, just a CD I got from someone that just plays those and about 100 differing sounds, some might laugh but I have not had yet one complaint about nerves and loud and low sounds, Some have been in major cities, working highways, sports,etc.... Actually get compliments not trying to toot me own horn but have been told that they are rock solid enviromentally. so far so good knock on wood, but yea When you have a litter I guess give it a whirl and play that movie:lol::lol::lol:O.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

I always find threads like this one interesting. I bred my first litter last year-Dutchies. Did the whole bio-sensor thing down to the letter. Handling the pups early on (day 2), when they started weaning I ran the vacuum or some other loud noise near where they were eating, the whole ball of wax. This past summer we had a "oopsie" breeding; not that the dogs that tied were bad, we just didn't want any pups. The bitch had only one pup. I didn't do anything with him. He was whelped in her dog house in the kennel and had no interaction other than checking on him when she was fed twice a day. He didn't get human interaction until he was around 3 weeks old. My litter last year was 3 pups; this new one is more solid than 2 of the 3 and he had nothing done. I didn't do the same with him as an experiment. And my conclusion is that it doesn't matter what you do, you can't hide genetics. Whatever the dog is, it is regardless of what you do.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> I always find threads like this one interesting. I bred my first litter last year-Dutchies. Did the whole bio-sensor thing down to the letter. Handling the pups early on (day 2), when they started weaning I ran the vacuum or some other loud noise near where they were eating, the whole ball of wax. This past summer we had a "oopsie" breeding; not that the dogs that tied were bad, we just didn't want any pups. The bitch had only one pup. I didn't do anything with him. He was whelped in her dog house in the kennel and had no interaction other than checking on him when she was fed twice a day. He didn't get human interaction until he was around 3 weeks old. My litter last year was 3 pups; this new one is more solid than 2 of the 3 and he had nothing done. I didn't do the same with him as an experiment. And my conclusion is that it doesn't matter what you do, you can't hide genetics. Whatever the dog is, it is regardless of what you do.


Yup totally agree with the genetics part as well, if you dont have good genetics and a good dog you have no place breeding with the exception of the oops#-o](*,)that happen I guess.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

But good genetics means what exactly? They may good genetcially to one, and garbage to another..you may have 50/50 of the litter do something, what does that say about genetics?

Even bad genetics (too some) can produce, the only way to figure it out is to do it.


And Adam, what happens if the litter you did the ENS with you didn't do it? Are they the same? better? worse? And the one and only? If you did do ENS, would he be stronger or the same?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Absolutely it's genetics. 

My Beauceron litters are almost always co-bred and handled a lot more and moved more, exposed to more, etc as they are whelped with one breeder and then moved to me after weaning. 

My malinois are raised exclusively by me and so are not moved and exposed to as much. The malinois litters always have a much higher % of good, stable, working pups. 

I think the more you are around your pups, you learn about them as individuals..know your pups better, but I don't think you change what they are. When you change their environments and expose them to new things it's important to note their reactions and recovery times to being surprised, etc.

It's the same with my Siamese cats as I've selected for very stable cats. I've talked with other breeder how it's absolutely necessary to handle and carry the kittens around to "socialize" them. If I was raising bobcats, I'd understand extensive handling and bottle feeding as these are wild...like with an owl too. 

But, breeders have bred in the desirable temperaments over generations hopefully and contine through their evaluation and selection processes.

When I handle the young animals it's to get to know them and because I want to and not because it's making them "good".


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## Sidney Johnsen (May 31, 2009)

Raised my first litter indoors and handled them pretty much from day one (not because I thought it had any effect on them, but just because I enjoy the larval form of dogs). Subjected them to lots of torture in the form of pictures. They got exposed to a lot of sound and activity because of the location of the whelping box. Not sure I would raise another litter in the house again though.. unless the outdoor weather conditions were at an extreme where it would put undo stress on momma (like the heat wave we've been having, ugh).

We're planning on building a whelping shed next to the cabin with access into a large "puppy yard" for any future litters. Nothing fancy. 

Here's a couple of pictures of the monsters when they were still little and cute;


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

ok - the kitten pic is just plain cute!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kristin, what Sidney is not telling you is this was secretly the father of that litter...orange tabby and all! :-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0tiT7KlACM


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

"But good genetics means what exactly? They may good genetcially to one, and garbage to another..you may have 50/50 of the litter do something, what does that say about genetics?"

True. What is considered "good" genetics can vary based on what a person wants to see in a pup. 

"Even bad genetics (too some) can produce, the only way to figure it out is to do it"

True again. The male of the single pup, IMO, didn't have the nerve I typically like. Plenty of everything else, but lacking in the nerve department for my tastes. However, the pup is always and totally forward. At 8 weeks he was diving off the front porch and going after people walking on the road in the dark. He'll march up to complete strangers with his little chest out and stare 'em right in the eye. So far, he's shown zero fear of anything. 

"And Adam, what happens if the litter you did the ENS with you didn't do it? Are they the same? better? worse? And the one and only? If you did do ENS, would he be stronger or the same? "

I don't know that the single pup would be any better. He's so far shown absolutely zero environmental issues. He's as confident a pup as I've seen. New stimuli, situations, or environments have had no effect on him to this point. To be honest, I can't say on the litter I did the ENS with. The only thing I can say for sure regarding that is that the pup that was stronger from the get-go remained so. That's a fair question and the honest answer is I don't know for sure.


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## Sidney Johnsen (May 31, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Kristin, what Sidney is not telling you is this was secretly the father of that litter...orange tabby and all! :-o
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0tiT7KlACM


LOL You caught me! But in my defense, that cat has his IPO and is damn good at the object guard.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Absolutely it's genetics.
> (...)
> I think the more you are around your pups, you learn about them as individuals..know your pups better, but I don't think you change what they are. When you change their environments and expose them to new things it's important to note their reactions and recovery times to being surprised, etc.
> (...)
> When I handle the young animals it's to get to know them and because I want to and not because it's making them "good".


I couldn't agree more.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> Oh and if there's a bad pup..well, that's owl food..


or you just send them to Canada


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