# finding human remains on inanimate objects



## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Specifically regarding finding a bullet that has exited a body and is in the ground. Would the more experienced cadaver dogs be able to detect the minute amount of blood from where the bullet has entered the ground. 

Its something a friend of mine mentioned to me. His dog wasn't successful, but he's not trained for cadaver (trailing dog). They had a specific area based on trajectory where the bullet would have to be, so his lack of success wasn't due to being in the wrong area, just not having the experience for it. But would it be feasible for an experienced cadaver dog to do it?

Mostly this is just curiousity. The jurisdiction I work for sees few if any shootings a year-we've had one already this year, so we are probably good till next year (bullet still in victim's body).


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

a lot of projectiles get wiped clean if they exit as the skin's elasticity hugs it before it tears. If the projectile is a shotgun slug, there will be remains everywhere it's a moot point.

If you want to do a science project, this makes a nifty scent source that no one will ever believe. Take standard nails, remove the oxide with sand paper, place them in water then put drops of human blood in the water. Let the nais rust till all the water is gone. The nail is now a residual scent source.

I tend to search just for remains now, not artifacts with blood on it, but his is doable and the dog can be trained for it. The reason is that the oxide holds the blood molecules. We tried oxidizing musket balls this way with blood as well. The dogs could find the musket balls, but as (now) a death investigator I think this was unrealistic. Today's projectiles tend to be higher velocity. I know from experience in digging projectiles out of objects (or rather watching Law Enforcement do this, that I don't see blood on them once extracted. 

I could be wrong.

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I don't know how much blood would stick to a bullet. We routinely search for things as small as a Q-tip dipped in blood, blood splatter, and individual teeth.

Time makes a difference too......blood would be washed off after awhile.

They did an experiement at a seminar where bloody rags were washed in oxyclean and detergent and the dogs could still pick those out. 

If I were going to deploy a dog for that, you may want to ask to see their training records and crime scene preservation documentation to make sure they are capable and trained (since they would be entering a crime scene)

wouldnt a metal detector find the bullet? Sorry don't know much about bullets


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Yes, a metal detector would be better to locate the projectile if it's in the ground.

Jim


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Many of today's modern defensive rounds are hollow points. That said, some human material may still be inside the hollow point cavity if the round doesn't hit a real hard object.

Additionally, Blood on the ground is usually targeted by insects and ants. I know animal blood is anyway. How long after the shooting will the blood remain, I don't know. I suppose there's a lot of variables involved.

I'm a bit out of my element here but i know what I know. Maybe my tidbit of input could help....or not.

Howard


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

I see a lot of .22 caliber deaths. As to how long blood will stay with insect activity. I poured 2 cc's of blood out on a rotted branch in a wash the other. Blood soaks into wood, so I knew the source would be good for a long time, but it was still visible on the wood days later. In the ground there are more variables to deal with but I'd say at least days.

Don't most hollow points mushroom on contact?

Jim


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Don't most hollow points mushroom on contact?
> 
> Jim


 Thats the premise behind the design but certain materials can plug a hollow point and effectively render it ball ammunition. Wall board and leather come to mind. If the bullet strikes a softer target thereafter it very likely may stay intact in its' original shape with the remnants of its' original impact item in the hollow point. In this scenario...human flesh/bone/blood. Not all hollow points perform as they should on flesh.

The reason I bring up insects is that I've found while tracking shot/wounded deer in warmer climates you'll find the bugs on blood fairly quickly.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

No experience here, just asking..

IF a bullet mushrooms and exits...would that not have a much higher probability of collecting biological matter? sure looks like it from pics of mushroomed bullets...or is it that they rarely if ever exit?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

A mushroomed bullet is effectively turned inside out. Anything it hits thereafter should wipe away what it passed through in the first place.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> A mushroomed bullet is effectively turned inside out. Anything it hits thereafter should wipe away what it passed through in the first place.


ah I thought they mushroom upon impact and slowed way down...

looking at this pic...just seemed like if it made it out, it would collect some biologicals


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have done a few experiements with 1cc of blood and dirt and with no rain but in moist soil, but and got about 3 days before the dog could not detect. But nothing formal enough to show reproducability under different conditions, dogs, weather conditions.....just playing.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ah I thought they mushroom upon impact and slowed way down...
> 
> looking at this pic...just seemed like if it made it out, it would collect some biologicals



If I'm not mistaken, That looks like a Winchester Ranger round. That bullet would definately hold some pieces parts. A hydra Shok petals out much differently.

Google image the Hydra Shok and you'll see that through 4 layers of denim there is no expansion. Just sayin.

Back to the OP though.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

I guess I should put in a reality check here.
Could a dog be trained to locate a bullet with the hollow point catching tissue? Yes. I've trained one before.
Would the dog be utilized for this? Very unlikely. I worked said dog in a historic venue to help historians identify places to use their metal detectors to find rounds from a civil war battle. One of about six dogs trained to do this. Dog had other uses or it would be a long time between searches.

Would L.E. think to call out a dog to do this after a shooting? My experience in working the death investigation side is most will gather man power and do a fine visual search as well as metal detectors. It's just quicker to bring in cadets to get down on their knees to scour the earth than it is to locate said dog team, see if they can drop everything, and come search. I usually schedule my dog a day ahead of time or longer when working with L.E. as HRD is rarely a crisis. You can dictate for best conditions.

If the projectiles used create huge exit wounds, then this dog team will become frustrated as there will be a lot more human remains than bullet with a dab of remains on it. Many times the human remains can not be disturbed until documented completely. The natural process most follow is once the human remains are recoverd then you look under them for your projectile. Most times we'll work out the trajectory through the victim (if possible to estimate position when shot) and use that as a guide to locate projectiles.

Realize that such a dog has to be specially trained because blood diffuses very quickly and, as far as human remaisn go, is very loud. So, you are asking the dog to locate a slightly brighter red bulb in a sea of red light.(to use an analogy) Such a dog has to be very methodical and understands the game. This would be like using an area search dog to scent discriminate in a crowd of thousands. Yes, that can be done as well, but the dog team has to train for it.

Historic dogs work a lot like this as the scent is very subtle at times and the dog has to be very methodical to cover a small area completely. Such dogs have their purposes, but they do not look anything (while working) like a drug dog or bomb dog. They are not moving fast to acquire scent as doing so can easily miss that partial tooth. My typical quote for time working to find an old clandestine grave is an acre per hour, could take longer depending on what's in that acre.
I'd never use one of my dogs in this application as I consider it on the other end of the spectrum.

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

we did some more training on old pre civil war graves this weekend. Very slow. Very methodical. Large scent pool. Due to the area being fenced the dog could not hit the fringe to get out of scnet and cleared his nose a lot and came back and forth back and forth before he settled in on a location. 

The dog 30 minutes before hit another grave. The dog after him hit the grave he hit (by then the sun was shining on the tombstone which had fallen flat)

It is definitely slow going.

-----------------------------

Problems where we have had to work right next to a scene with a lot of decomp [torso and head present /limbs missing] - been there - dogs could not go into crime scene - kept pulling them off source -odor was very large to all of us - I think the next time we get a call like that I would say to call us AFTER fornensics is done and the tape is clear so the dog can indicate on the slick THEN keep working. It is certainly a special case you need to train for.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

There are methods to make working old graves easier, but the scent source is basically in a bowl where the soil outisde the grave will be of less scent strength than the grave itself...that porosity/permeability thing I talked about before. Since I start all my dogs on teeth, they usually target the head for me. Dogs that start on tissue tend to target the pelvis due to the bones there being more thouroughly saturated with the decompositon process. Training a dog to really excel on old graves brings other downsides as such a dog recognizes less scent as a possible burial. This forces my older dog to have to work through scent pools in depressions to work towards the source for correct targeting. I have to be very methodical in his training to keep him balanced on scent strength. Most dog handlers are happy just to locate the grave at all. I want to know where the head is....it's from my historical background and doing a lot of cemeteries.

When I was doing this all the time, my first dog and I were one of the few that knocked out 100 graves in an hour. You get into a rhythm with the dog and stretch out the rewards. You have to make it fun for the dog to get repeated new finds.

Jim


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I agree with your whole post but clarify the use for the below statement please...



Jim Delbridge said:


> I worked said dog in a historic venue to help historians identify places to use their metal detectors to find rounds from a civil war battle. One of about six dogs trained to do this. Dog had other uses or it would be a long time between searches.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

I used to work my first dog on historic (very old) remains. Usually that entailed reclaiming abandoned cemeteries or moved cemeteries where someone wanted to locate the original site. A lot of this was intelligence type work and then you'd confirm with the dog the existence of the graves. AT the time this occurred, there weren't very many dogs trained in historic work. ICF ran with this and specializes 
in only historic work with their dogs. I've trained with many of their dog handlers from years past.
We were requested to search a civil war battle field with the assumption of the projectiles were in dead soldiers that may have decomposed on the battlefield falling prey to hogs, coyotes, and vermin. It was pretty common during the civil war for not all the dead to be recovered. Our dogs identified locations where old human remains, most likely small bones and the projectiles were all that was left. The historians followed after us and confirmed with their metal detectors.

Historic work has become more popular with dog handlers in subsequent years. I'm faciliitating a gathering of dog teams wishing to practice on old graves up in Colorado. I leave in the morning so that my dogs and I can get acclimated to the elevation and can work unmarked graves ahead of time to provide answers in the back of the book to those coming to train. Most of these dog handlers are already very experienced so there is always a chance they'll find graves my dog didn't. It's a win-win for me as I'll probably learn as much from them as they will from me. I'll be gone for about 12 days.


Jim


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I'll admit it's pure ignorance on my part but...civil war graves? For real? There is still viable odor after over 150 years? I've heard this claim before, and dogs constantly amaze me but....I'd like to see this done. 

Hope you have a good trip. Get some video for us would ya?

BTW, thanks for the in depth answer. Much appreciated.

H


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I know that is training a number of folks (including us do) to sharpen our dogs for work on shallow graves - realizing that the amount of scent will in fact be less/different than a newer grave - plus there is work in locating old graves.

You would not believe the size of the scent pool. Quite large. The ones we worked this weekend were from around the 1840s. At that time only the very wealthy were doing any kind of preservation - using aresenic and lead caskets and after the Civil war people started embalming so the pre civil war burials are more 'natural'.

We have also trained on old slave graves that tend to be overgrown and with no head/foot stones. Got to be careful there - the ones we worked had been confirmed so I am not going to just train my dog on any gravelike depression unless I know.

FWIW I was worried about the visual with the headstones/footstones but it is not like the dogs run to one and indicate. They actually take a lot of time with a lot of detailed sniffing and indicate on the strongest one. With more experience they do multiples - (like training scatter)

Another one I worked that was neat was a friend took me to a section of railroad track where someone was cut in half about 4 months earlier and said "where was he?" (she was LE and at the scene). Because it was in a populated area there was a lot of cleanup of the scene. 

Once again, large scent pool located fairly early but the detail work took us awhile. He found a seam between the clamp and the rail (where it could have been pushed in, I gather) and she went "wow"--and that was under less than ideal scenting conditions and me being a bit nervous about working my dog offlead on an active track. 

Our biggest challenges are not with the small and old stuff - it is with getting frequent enough access to the large stuff to keep the upper threshold working.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Amazing. Thanks.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Our biggest challenges are not with the small and old stuff - it is with getting frequent enough access to the large stuff to keep the upper threshold working.


That's interesting. I never considered that.


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