# Help me make the right choice...



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I have a 6yr old rott...this is not one of my working dogs, just a pet. She's very poorly bred and I never wanted her but my next door neighbor thought she was being nice by giving us a Rottie puppy when she heard that I put one of our old Rotts to sleep (11yrs old and had cancer). She breeds Spaniels and actually traded one of her pups for this Rott so we, especially my wife felt obligated to keep her. 

Anyway, she's severely dysplastic. You could see it at six months and it's so bad that to fix it, the pelvis would have to be reconstructed. Two days ago, she popped one of her ACLs and I can see the strain on her other leg. Her hips are so bad that I can see she has trouble simply standing with the other leg.

I convinced my wife that surgery would be a waste of money and I have been trying to convince her to put her to sleep now but she wants to manage the pain and wait to see how things go. She thinks if the other ACL blows then it's time to put her down but I think it should be now. 


What do you guys think?


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

My honest opinion, heartbreaking as it is, the time would be now. Managing pain for the HD is something I might do, but with a blown ACL (which is also painful) as well, it is either time to fix it, or put her down, and with the history of severe HD, I would not have surgery done. 

Quality of Life does not sound like it is going to be all that great....prolonged use of pain meds is not great at all......

Sorry to hear this Chris. I know it must be difficult.


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Is this what's best for the dog, or for your wife?

I can understand being attached, but there comes a point where you need to consider the dog's quality of life. If the dog is in constant pain and no longer enjoys doing the things she used to, what is the point of keeping her going?


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I would put the dog down due to the fact that there is no guarantee that the dogs quality of life will improve. It is always a hard descsion to make.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> Is this what's best for the dog, or for your wife?
> 
> I can understand being attached, but there comes a point where you need to consider the dog's quality of life. If the dog is in constant pain and no longer enjoys doing the things she used to, what is the point of keeping her going?



I actually do nothing with the dog but feed her and that's the argument with my wife. She says since I have nothing to do with the dog then she should be the one to make the decision.


----------



## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

My first thought is always: what is the dogs 'quality of life' ? If he's (even with the help of a pain releiver medication)in pain that cannot be releived enough for the dog to be able to have peaceful comfort & rest, go out to potty, walk around, be able to play a bit ( this could be just holding a ball in his mouth if that is what makes him happy or playing with a toy while laying down etc not running about)....that would be my criteria for making a decision on PTS. When the time comes that it is more pain & misery & not being able to go out & potty & therefoe the loss of dignity for the dog, that to me would be the time. JMO 

Don't know if that helps you with your decision or not. Everyone is different.

ETA....,looks like we were all posting at the same time with the same thoughts.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I actually do nothing with the dog but feed her and that's the argument with my wife. She says since I have nothing to do with the dog then she should be the one to make the decision.



Maybe have your wife read this thread??? 

It really is not fair to the dog to keep them going for our comfort......for me, that is a really selfish thing to do to a dog that has health issues that cause it to be in pain all the time.


----------



## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Hi,

well.. years ago I had a way over sized dobe male. At 9 he had a stroke and had neurological damage and affected movement on his left side. However he could still get around altho most of his weight was on his front right leg. I convinced myself that I would wait until I saw some form of injury in the front right leg before I moved to euthanasia.

But as the days went on I realised that I did not want his last days to be in excruciating, and I did not want his last vision of me to be clouded thru a haze of pain. He gave me 9 years of his life (which was about double all of his siblings got - cardio took most of them) and I wanted to respect his devotion. So a month and a half after his stroke he was PTS.

For my dog he was never going to get better and it was simply a matter of time.

I wouldn't want to live my daily life drugged up and in pain. MHO.

Tamara McIntosh


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I have a 6yr old rott...this is not one of my working dogs, just a pet. She's very poorly bred and I never wanted her but my next door neighbor thought she was being nice by giving us a Rottie puppy when she heard that I put one of our old Rotts to sleep (11yrs old and had cancer). She breeds Spaniels and actually traded one of her pups for this Rott so we, especially my wife felt obligated to keep her.
> 
> Anyway, she's severely dysplastic. You could see it at six months and it's so bad that to fix it, the pelvis would have to be reconstructed. Two days ago, she popped one of her ACLs and I can see the strain on her other leg. Her hips are so bad that I can see she has trouble simply standing with the other leg.
> 
> ...


O Chris, I'm sorry to hear that. From some of the conversations we've had about her, I think it might be time. How can you tell if you're managing her pain, or if she's continuing to suffer with chronic pain? 

Personally - I don't want to suffer before I die. So I definitely don't want to do it to one of my dogs. 

I would take her to the vet and find out what exactly her chances of a comfortable life (without surgery) are. That information would help make a final decision.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

My first reaction would be "put her down" but then I hesitate. In my experience, my dogs have told me through their behavior when it was time to let them go. Sometimes the person closest to the dog is the last one to see it though, so you may have to be the "eyes" for your wife. But each dog is an individual, just like each person. For some, the pain isn't that big of a deal and they are still happy and enjoying life. Those I would wait on. My sister's Malinois (long haired) has horrible ED, it was diagnosed at 4 or 5 months old because he was already showing symptoms. He's been in chronic pain his entire life. But he doesn't know any better and he's a happy, energetic dog, who they have to hold back, he'd do a lot more then they will let him if he could, but they see the after effects of letting him go full bore. He recently turned 11 though and is still happy, although slowing down, so ...

For others, it's a problem and the dog shows signs of depression and lack of interest, for those IMO it's time to let them go. I had to let my last Dobe go due to Wobbler's earlier then I would have liked, not because of the pain but because he was falling down and starting to have bowel control problems. Not a big deal to me, but he panicked when he'd fall down, and he'd thrash around on the floor until he was exhausted. When he calmed down then he could get right back up, it wasn't that he couldn't get up, but the changes to his body freaked him out, and he became very depressed. So I let him go. 

If the dog is still happy and enjoying life, then I'd manage her pain the best I could and let her continue to enjoy life. If she's obviously not enjoying life, is depressed, etc because of the pain and/or her physical limitations then it's time to let her go.

The hard part is getting your wife to see and agree with this.


----------



## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Wow very bad break for the humans...decision wise. Speaking from one who has a working dysplastic dog (moderate) I think about that question often. And while he is my favorite (don't tell Kandy or Katara please) the moment it he is in any pain that can't be reasonably managed or develops other issues that would complicate matters I would have him put down.

I remember a lady I worked with at the HSM, who was selfish and couldn't bear to part with her beloved pet. He was very old, blind, almost completely deaf and could not move around on his on power virtually at all. Had to be carried or supported with a towel around the abdomen on the rare occasions that he walked. Because of that him would soil himself and his bedding. I remember thinking how very cruel it was to not release him into rest.

I personally would put the dog down.:-(


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I have a 6yr old rott...this is not one of my working dogs, just a pet. She's very poorly bred and I never wanted her but my next door neighbor thought she was being nice by giving us a Rottie puppy when she heard that I put one of our old Rotts to sleep (11yrs old and had cancer). She breeds Spaniels and actually traded one of her pups for this Rott so we, especially my wife felt obligated to keep her.
> 
> Anyway, she's severely dysplastic. You could see it at six months and it's so bad that to fix it, the pelvis would have to be reconstructed. Two days ago, she popped one of her ACLs and I can see the strain on her other leg. Her hips are so bad that I can see she has trouble simply standing with the other leg.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to talk you into it or talk you out of it, but just present some scenarios so you can make the best decision for her and for you two. Before you try anything else, she needs to be put on some kind of anti-inflammatory analgesic for humane reasons and to reduce inflammation if you chose to go the surgical route. Even if you chose to euthanize her in the next few days, at least let her be somewhat comfortable for a few days. This can be carprofen (Rimadyl or generic), deracoxib, (Deramaxx), firocoxib (Previcox), and so on. There are lots of options to discuss with your vet and some work better for some dogs than others, just like some people do really well with acetaminophen, but have no luck with ibuprofen. Before putting any dog on long term NSAIDs, blood work is a very good idea. 

Next, realize that 50% of dogs with a cranial cruciate ligament rupture in one stifle joint will have it happen again to the other down the road. That means if you opt for surgery, you might as well start saving for the next. There are several surgical options for surgery. Lateral suture ($1000-1800ish), TightRope ($2000), TTA or TPLO ($2200-2500). Quite a few general practitioners do the lateral suture, but not many do TightRope and usually only board certified orthopaedic surgeons do TTA or TPLO. Sonora Veterinary Specialists in Phoenix has two boarded surgeons. If you wish to search further, check out:

http://www.acvs.org/AboutTheACVS/DiplomateDirectory/

Last thing to consider is that she'll need physical rehab if you decide to proceed with surgery. this usually means up to 8 weeks crate rest (meaning NO off leash time AT ALL for 8 weeks, towel walking for the first week, and very short potty breaks on leash only for the next 7 weeks). The next is another 8 weeks is a slow build up to normal activity. I'm probably a little biased because I want to go into rehab, but my thoughts are that why spend up to several thousand on surgery and skimp a couple hundred on rehab and not get the results you want? Sometimes rehab practitioners can give you additional insight on the situation, so I might ask for a pre-surgery consultation to see what other options she has. Looks like you have someone certified in rehab in Phoenix as well:

http://www.caninerehabinstitute.com/Find_A_Therapist.html

Hope that helps and let me know if you have any other questions that I can hopefully answer. It's a decision only you guys can make.


----------



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

we can't know the level of what is wrong or the dog is feeling but I hate to think the dog is suffering every day because your wife is selfish and immature. Maybe your not to that time yet, we dont know, only you do. Yes it is a tough decision. Adults have to make tough decisions. Do what is best for the dog. I have had to put two dogs down.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris when the "gut" says something, do you brush it aside? Go with what YOU feel is RIGHT!


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Let her go...


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Chris when the "gut" says something, do you brush it aside? Go with what YOU feel is RIGHT!



If it were up to me, she would be gone now. I'm fine without the dog but the wife is a different story. 

Anyway, we've come to a compromise. We're going to give it about 10 days or less and if the dog comes back to "normal" (which was never normal) then we'll just move on with some form of pain management routine. Right now the dog pretty much acts like nothing is wrong and manages with three legs. My issue is, I can see her "good" leg bowing out and that's putting a ton of stress on the other ACL. 

What it boils down to is that my wife chatted with our Vet this morning and he said give it a few days because the pain of the torn acl will start to subside and she will be able to put pressure on the leg again. This dog doesn't really get to leave the house other than for walks to the post office. Her legs literally "swivel" when she walks so she's just a house dog that gets plenty of attention and food. Not the kind of dog I prefer to have in the house unless it's a pug or something.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doesn't really matter if it is a pug or whatever I really don't like pointless suffering in an animal..if she has a focus then there are different rules and guidelines maybe, but not to just hang around the house just being... jmo


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> She thinks if the other ACL blows then it's time to put her down but I think it should be now.
> 
> 
> What do you guys think?


I think she needs to understand the facts that make up the reality for what has already taken place and what eventually will. Not saying it can't but this is not something that typically works itself out well by taking a wait and see approach, it's like addiction for those who choose to not get help - it only goes one way from there.


----------



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

just wondering , what about a wheel chair devise for her back legs, so she doesnt have to use them at all , like paralysed dogs, 

my staff has has both his crucitaes done and he is really 90% back to normal he is 9 yrs and pulls a dog sled sometimes , exercises like normal 
BUT he is not dyslplastic


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> If it were up to me, she would be gone now. I'm fine without the dog but the wife is a different story .


Seems like a good opportunity to get rid of the dog and get that tube on your amp fixed at the same time.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Do not let your wife read this forum. Just take the initiative and do what's right, and get your amp tuned up and stop greeting about trivial matters


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Do not let your wife read this forum.


Why not? It may help her see that the thing to do is right here......taking the initiative to do what is probably right and not letting her know would probably cause even bigger issues than having a discussion about doing it. 

I know, I have been there......it sucks to have to lose your companion, but when it is the right thing and you sneak off and have it done....BAD Joo Joo.......or however it is spelled....

(FYI...I was the one in the dark.....and I WAS PISSED...even though I knew it was the right thing, I did not get to say goodbye....and that SUCKS!!!)


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Hey Chris - I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I have a severely dysplastic 8 yr old labx. A couple of months ago I came home to find him limping badly on his hind leg. For me, surgery is not an option for him - he's too old, and has too many other issues (elbows too) to fix one leg. So the vet gave me some heavy duty pain meds and we waited.

I am torn between looking for an excuse to call it a day for him and not wanting to lose him. It's a really hard place to be. He is useless and crippled, but he is my dog... and I took him in with the agreement that I have with any animal I keep, that I will do my best by them.

For two weeks, he got in the car to go to where I run the dogs in the morning, got out, peed, pooped and headed back to the car. I put him back in and took the other two for their run. I was ready to say enough - this was no life for him... he didn't want to do what he usually does, which is sniff and pee on things and splash in the creek and look for stinky stuff to roll in and bark at the other two... and then one day, he wanted to go for a walk again.

Cut back on the pain meds, but I'm resigned to daily metacam for him. 

It's a hard call and harder it seems, for your wife, who really loves the dog. She's the one who will have to come to the place in her heart where she's ready to say time is up for the dog. You have to let her get there.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

she can read the forum if she wants. What I am not going to do is just take the dog and have her pts without my wife knowing about it. It's her dog and that's a shitty thing to do. I've been with this woman for 21 years in june and I didn't make it this long by being stupid, hiding my activities and destroying her items.

She understands that the dog needs to be put to sleep. We are working dog people and she is a pet person and that generally creates at clash in how we view our dogs. 

The wheel chair idea is funny but I'm not willing to spend money on something that makes me look like an idiot. In general, my wife is taking this hard because we have six dogs, two really old pugs that will expire sometime this year and now this rott. While I am happy to be down to three dogs, we all handle death differently and I would be smart to respect my wife's wishes.

While I know without a shadow of a doubt the dog in question isnt going to get any better it's hard others who view their people like children that all hope is lost. My wife is smart enough to see the decline and she will want to do what is best for the dog just not today. It's hard for her to see what I see because I am home most of the time and she has an office job that keeps her away for 10 hours+ per day.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Everyone's threshold for where to draw the line in these situations will always be different. I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that Chris and recognize some of the driving factors behind why that is.

Let your wife know this at least. I've been there. My dog was however functionally dysplastic and I do have some regret about not having the surgery when the injury occurred. I didn't because it's not uncommon for my breed to be lost while under or bloat after major surgery. I felt it was in my dogs best interest to manage her condition to the best of my ability. I got 5 pretty good years out of her but the trade off was not without a personal sacrifice and one that impacted more than just my daily routine. In her case, the odds were in my favor, to the extent they could be but if my dog had otherwise shown outward signs of having her quality of life impacted by her HD, I would have released her sooner than I did, which I did at just under 11 years of age.


----------



## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

sit by yourself and ponder.

listen to your heart and to your gut.

what are they telling you?

Make your choice.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Why not? It may help her see that the thing to do is right here......taking the initiative to do what is probably right and not letting her know would probably cause even bigger issues than having a discussion about doing it.
> 
> I know, I have been there......it sucks to have to lose your companion, but when it is the right thing and you sneak off and have it done....BAD Joo Joo.......or however it is spelled....
> 
> (FYI...I was the one in the dark.....and I WAS PISSED...even though I knew it was the right thing, I did not get to say goodbye....and that SUCKS!!!)


 
That post was a little tongue in cheek, and I agree wiith you but....maybe you and I have a little understanding that Chris's wife does not. What I would say though...it has to be her decision so as she can get peace, her reading the comments on this thread was my reference.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> she can read the forum if she wants. What I am not going to do is just take the dog and have her pts without my wife knowing about it. It's her dog and that's a shitty thing to do. I've been with this woman for 21 years in june and I didn't make it this long by being stupid, hiding my activities and destroying her items.
> 
> Good choice. I'm probably as sappy as it gets and it always happens that one day you look in that dog's eyes and know its time. I have somewhat changed over the years I think. I took Teva in for the x-rays and seeing the osteosarcoma, I knew the handwriting was on the wall. Uncharacteristically, I told my vet I didn't want to wake her up. I guess she could have existed a little longer with some heavy pain meds which I questioned at that time whether her GI tract could handle. But it hit me that I shouldn't hold on only for her to experience more pain and decline. Its your wife's relationship. Let her deal with it and make the decision. I think you can help with all the objective information in that the surgery is iffy at best and there are two many issues w/ the knees a problem as well.
> 
> Terrasita


----------



## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Chris,
I'm sorry to hear about your dog. My AB has severe HD in both hips. Also showed up @ 6 months and I talked the Hubby into letting me get the TPO hip surg on her. Surg. was not cheap and it was very time consuming while she healed. I was with her all the time watching to make sure she didnt fall, so on. Im not sorry I did it because I love her to death BUT, if I had it to do over again, I would not. In the end, it cost us a lot of moola and she isnt doing well now and I dont see her being around this time next year. For now her quality of life is ok most of the time, but when it becomes worse, she will be PTS. <sigh> Hopefully, when your Rottie is ready, your Wife will know it's time. It's never an easy descision but I wont let my dog suffer. She deserves better. My thoughts are with yall.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> That post was a little tongue in cheek, and I agree wiith you but....maybe you and I have a little understanding that Chris's wife does not. What I would say though...it has to be her decision so as she can get peace, her reading the comments on this thread was my reference.


Ahhh....I see...

And Chris, my apologies for sounding harsh....I understand where you are at AND where your wife are coming from (I was a pet person too once)....it is a tough, tough thing to go through and I wish you guys ( you, wife and furry kids) didn't have to go through it.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> Hey Chris - I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I have a severely dysplastic 8 yr old labx. A couple of months ago I came home to find him limping badly on his hind leg. For me, surgery is not an option for him - he's too old, and has too many other issues (elbows too) to fix one leg. So the vet gave me some heavy duty pain meds and we waited.


Leslie, I know we've discussed this a bit previously, but multiple surgeons I've now talked to don't agree that age should be a huge consideration. It's more of a total picture. We do total knee replacements on humans, which are way more invasive than the lateral suture or TightRope in dogs in particular, on 80+ year olds pretty frequently. My own grandmother was in her mid 70s when she got not one but both of hers done. The healing process will be slower than a young dog, but if the dog is otherwise healthy and will have a good rehab protocol afterward in place, a senior dog can do very well and may even act like a younger dog again. It's up to the owner ultimately, but the "he/she is old and I don't want to put him/her through it" idea is not strictly true if the dog is otherwise healthy. It's a risk/benefit analysis.

I can't remember if you've tried Adequan and hylauronic acid injections? I'm liking both in my old Rottie, who's now actually cantering during herding when I had rarely even seen a sad trot before due to her severe arthritis in her elbows and hips.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

When our Fila Brasileiro got old (14,5 yrs.), I said as long as he gets out of his basket when I put my jacket on and pick up the lead, I will not have him put to sleep. I'd had my Briard put to sleep a year earlier but I found this easier as this dog was mentally full of life but at 13 had spinal trouble and then kidney insufficency came too.

Strangely enough ( Gaucho was Toni's dog, but he didn't have as much to do with him as I did (due to his work)) he was the one to say to me "Gill it's time now". I said ok, I'm going to walk him to the field and then when I come back I'll know what to do. I walked to the field, looked into his eyes which were tired and cataracted and said "OK mate, Toni's right" and came back and we went straight to the vet.

I'd "nursed" him for a long while and maybe didn't have the "necessary distance" that Toni did. I agree with you Chris, it has to be a joint decision and the one who is "thinking "clearly"" has to be the one to convince the other.

I don't envy you both but it will hurt like hell if it's tomorrow or two weeks' later - the difference being that the dog isn't suffering.


----------

