# The Cost...



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

After reading some posts and also talking with folks the past few days, the idea of K-9 costs came to mind. It's no shocker that well bred dogs/puppies cost and titled ones are more. For kennel operating folks...have you sat down and put a dollar on almost each thing you do connected with your dogs, kennel, and training? 

For pet folks who have NEVER owned a dog, try it some time and then get the answers you might need as to why FLUFFY costs an arm and a leg! In some venues, a working lines puppy can run from about $1,000 to upwards of $2,500. Hold on here it comes: add all the expenses for this little ball of fur and then add 15% for good measure.

So why are so many breeders being careful NOT to sell to just anyone? Maybe it comes comes to the BIG PICTURE and the fact that so much IS invested in the kennel operation.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What does the cost of the kennel operation have to do with WHO they sell to. Its not a working LINE for me unless the breeder works it, trains it, titles it and health tests it. I see a lot of breeding dogs that have parents and grandparents that were titled by someone else and now the new person on the breeding block is capitalizing on that and selling $1000+ puppies.[-X[-X There may be a few exceptions to the rule but unless you train it and work it, you don't have any idea of that puppy's potential for performing in certain venues or the best training approaches. 

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> After reading some posts and also talking with folks the past few days, the idea of K-9 costs came to mind. It's no shocker that well bred dogs/puppies cost and titled ones are more. For kennel operating folks...have you sat down and put a dollar on almost each thing you do connected with your dogs, kennel, and training?
> 
> For pet folks who have NEVER owned a dog, try it some time and then get the answers you might need as to why FLUFFY costs an arm and a leg! In some venues, a working lines puppy can run from about $1,000 to upwards of $2,500. Hold on here it comes: add all the expenses for this little ball of fur and then add 15% for good measure.
> 
> So why are so many breeders being careful NOT to sell to just anyone? Maybe it comes comes to the BIG PICTURE and the fact that so much IS invested in the kennel operation.


For the most part, I think most breeders try to be selective. but it's tough to know someone in a few phone calls and e-mails. So you look for red flags and try to steer clear, but a few have slipped passed. A few just flat out lied to me. One even told me he was a K-9 handler in the Border Patrol. After a 6 mos old female kicked his ass. I asked I thought you handled Malinois before....Then the truth came out how he had worked a long side them. But I think most homes that end up bad, the owners bs themselves as much as they bs the breeder. 

The other thing I have found to be a total myth is that sport or working dog homes are better equipped to handle a Malinois. That's complete and under BS. Just because someone paid club dues, bought a fursaver, and uses commands in another language gives them zero ability over any other home. In fact I have gotten calls from people who are working people, asking me ridiculous things about puppies. And have turned them down, sent the dog to a companion home where they thrived. Being good with an animal has nothing to do with if you shop the ray allen catalog.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

James Downey said:


> For the most part, I think most breeders try to be selective. but it's tough to know someone in a few phone calls and e-mails. So you look for red flags and try to steer clear, but a few have slipped passed. A few just flat out lied to me. One even told me he was a K-9 handler in the Border Patrol. After a 6 mos old female kicked his ass. I asked I thought you handled Malinois before....Then the truth came out how he had worked a long side them. But I think most homes that end up bad, the owners bs themselves as much as they bs the breeder.
> 
> The other thing I have found to be a total myth is that sport or working dog homes are better equipped to handle a Malinois. That's complete and under BS. Just because someone paid club dues, bought a fursaver, and uses commands in another language gives them zero ability over any other home. In fact I have gotten calls from people who are working people, asking me ridiculous things about puppies. And have turned them down, sent the dog to a companion home where they thrived. Being good with an animal has nothing to do with if you shop the ray allen catalog.


+1 Very True!


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> +1 Very True!


 
Amen!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Being good with an animal has nothing to do with if you shop the ray allen catalog.


Agreed. Nothing like the homes that are in for the life of the dog instead of becoming disillusioned when it hits a stage and want to return. 

T


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Agreed. Nothing like the homes that are in for the life of the dog instead of becoming disillusioned when it hits a stage and want to return.
> 
> T


 When we live in a culture that throws EVERYTHING away, what can you expect? The puppy pees on the carpet and folks want a refund b/c it isn't POTTY TRAINED! ](*,)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> When we live in a culture that throws EVERYTHING away, what can you expect? The puppy pees on the carpet and folks want a refund b/c it isn't POTTY TRAINED! ](*,)


Not my pet/companion homes. I've used a six-page questionnaire of what ifs to weed out stuff like that. I guess I've been lucky in that they have been life time homes for the dogs. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Not my pet/companion homes. I've used a six-page questionnaire of what ifs to weed out stuff like that. I guess I've been lucky in that they have been life time homes for the dogs.
> 
> T


how many pups have you sold? and have you kept in touch with every single person sold to?

a questionaire is great, but not foolproof. you think most people are going to admit that they cannot housebreak a dog? and many people can't, they just have been lucky with their previous dog...lol..


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> how many pups have you sold? and have you kept in touch with every single person sold to?
> 
> a questionaire is great, but not foolproof. you think most people are going to admit that they cannot housebreak a dog? and many people can't, they just have been lucky with their previous dog...lol..


 
Not that many because I don't breed that often. I've been involved in rescue placements and I help pick/place puppies for other breeders I know. I just don't use the questionnaire. That's the start. I also didn't say its foolproof but I don't hear about wanna a refund because its not housebroken. Actually mine are crate trained and leash broken when they leave here and if you stick to the schedule, you're good to go and that includes the rescues I've rehabbed. I start the housebreaking process at 5 1/2 weeks. And yes they do admit to certain things, interestingly enough. I'm also here as a resource if they run into trouble. They also know and its contractually stated, for any reason, they wake up one morning at anytime during Fido's life, and don't want him anymore, Fido comes back to me. I remain in touch and I get pictures/cards a few times a year along with emails.

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

First, It's a completely different animal placing a rescue dog than it is a working dog. 

Second, a questionaire value is not the questions or the amount. I think the value is that gives the seller the power in the transactions. People who are unwilling to take subordinate role in the transaction will refuse and you don't wanna deal with those people anyway. And then half the people who fill out a questionaire will if not lie, will not tell the truth. 

Most breeders I know are housbreaking ASAP also. That depends on the litter and the weather. My first litter was born in the longest winter MI had seen in over 3 decades. Those pups took some time. They also may not have been genetically as clean. The second litter....They were born in the summer and were potty trained by 8 weeks old. I could not believe how quick they got it. But they lived outside a lot and we left the back door open so they could go outside at night. 

I think a lot of breeders do things like Bio Sensor, Potty train, socialize as if they are the only ones on the planet trying to do right by the pups. 

I think if you have not gotten a pup back. You got some luck and that's it.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> They also know and its contractually stated, for any reason, they wake up one morning at anytime during Fido's life, and don't want him anymore, Fido comes back to me.
> 
> T


If someone purchases a dog from you, and decides they don't want the dog for whatever reason, do you pay them for the dog?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The Cost of Doing Business...
If you have only bred one or two litters, would it REALLY fall into the class as a breeder? How many dogs have come back for whatever reason? I screen folks and give them my BEST opinion for the puppy they are looking to own. In the BIG PICTURE, we are that about deal with adults...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> If someone purchases a dog from you, and decides they don't want the dog for whatever reason, do you pay them for the dog?


 In my case, I have a FIRST RIGHTS clause. I have only turned down one, and only one has come back. The reason I also have a NO SPAY or NEUTER section. Who wants a dog that can't be bred if it pans out down the road?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> In my case, I have a FIRST RIGHTS clause. I have only turned down one, and only one has come back. The reason I also have a NO SPAY or NEUTER section. Who wants a dog that can't be bred if it pans out down the road?


first rights to purchase back or take?

Terrasita.

what about you? what do you do if someone wants to sell the dog you sold to them?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> If someone purchases a dog from you, and decides they don't want the dog for whatever reason, do you pay them for the dog?


 
Nope and that's a standard and no one frowns upon it or object. Sometimes its just a matter of assisting the person in rehoming the dogs. I imagine its an easy out for them. They don't have to bother with placement and something I produced doesn't end up in the wrong hands or rescue. Rescue deals with dogs from breeders all the time. They contact the breeder and the breeder refuses to assist. If I bring it here then I consider it my responsibility. As for working dogs, we've had that discussion as to whether all pups in the litter are of the same ability. There's also different types of "working" homes.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> First, It's a completely different animal placing a rescue dog than it is a working dog.
> 
> Second, a questionaire value is not the questions or the amount. I think the value is that gives the seller the power in the transactions. People who are unwilling to take subordinate role in the transaction will refuse and you don't wanna deal with those people anyway. And then half the people who fill out a questionaire will if not lie, will not tell the truth.
> 
> ...


Its not an issue of getting a pup back but reducing the risk of getting one back. Nor is getting a pup back always a reflection of bad selection or something the breeder did wrong. As for people lying, sure they do. But most aren't that good at it. Watch how they interact with your dogs and the personal favorite, watch their kids and how they parent. Dead giveaway. I've gone to watch people compete and train. I talk to them alot and I do what I can to figure it out. Mostly, its a matter of what type of puppy vs. no puppy or dog. But I've flat out said "no" too.

T


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

When I buy a dog, I buy the whole dog, and all it's parts, including full registration (none of this limited crap), and the dog is mine to do with as I please. If  I determine, for whatever reason, this dog isn't the right one for me, I might decide to sell the dog, and after training, feeding, vet care, maybe OFA certs, maybe putting a BH on the dog, the last thing in the world I'm going to do is hand that dog back over to the breeder for free, that's a really bad joke.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

absolutely Susan.

I NEVER buy a dog and assume 100% that I will even keep it for a year, let alone its entire life..

Of course I am always super hopeful that I will keep it, and often do, but that doesnt mean I always will.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> first rights to purchase back or take?
> 
> Terrasita.
> 
> what about you? what do you do if someone wants to sell the dog you sold to them?


Contractually, the dog comes back to me, if they don't want it. If it came up and they wanted to rehome and it was a "good" home, I have no problem with a resell. Like I said so far no issues except a disagreement over a breeding clause and in the end I won. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> absolutely Susan.
> 
> I NEVER buy a dog and assume 100% that I will even keep it for a year, let alone its entire life..
> 
> Of course I am always super hopeful that I will keep it, and often do, but that doesnt mean I always will.


And I think there are people that will place dogs with you and be fine with that.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> The Cost of Doing Business...
> If you have only bred one or two litters, would it REALLY fall into the class as a breeder? How many dogs have come back for whatever reason? I screen folks and give them my BEST opinion for the puppy they are looking to own. In the BIG PICTURE, we are that about deal with adults...


 
I don't determine the classification by how many produced. I breed to get specific characteristics when I breed and I've gotten them. Like I said, I haven't had dogs come back. If you are breeding for work, to me, there aren't tons of homes that can handle that type of dog. I enjoy raising the puppies but really the placement part of it is the most stressful. Bottom line, I'm looking for someone that will care for the dog and KEEP IT. I don't want them passed around or to get it back. Its not a business or dollars and cents for me.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> And I think there are people that will place dogs with you and be fine with that.
> 
> T


they sure will, that is how working dogs tend to generally be sold. dogs meant to be pets and rescues are another thing entirely.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> they sure will, that is how working dogs tend to generally be sold. dogs meant to be pets and rescues are another thing entirely.


Yeah, I like to think of the dual dog--working & pet. But interesting to know that's how the working world sees it.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, I like to think of the dual dog--working & pet. But interesting to know that's how the working world sees it.
> 
> T


well to be honest that is also how the pet industry usually works as well.

dogs are property, if someone buys it, they can surely sell it.

I personally have never heard of clauses like yours that prohibit the sale of a dog, unless it was done as some sort of a co-ownership or lease.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> well to be honest that is also how the pet industry usually works as well.
> 
> dogs are property, if someone buys it, they can surely sell it.
> 
> I personally have never heard of clauses like yours that prohibit the sale of a dog, unless it was done as some sort of a co-ownership or lease.


Not in the circles I run in. The type of clause I mentioned is quite standard. Yes, dogs are property and contracts are contracts. You have a choice as to whether you agree to any of the terms. There's all sorts of terms out there. I've had breeders tell me they want $400-$500 non-refundable deposits before the litter is even 2 weeks old. What's even worse are the ones that tell me I don't have a choice in the dog. Some may choose to contractually agree to that.

Most people who buy to keep a dog without intention of resell, don't care about the clause. On average, their ability to rehome that dog is pretty close to nil. That's how they end up in shelters and rescue.

T


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> ... On average, their ability to rehome that dog is pretty close to nil. That's how they end up in shelters and rescue.
> 
> T


Terrasita I couldn't agree more!
The sad part about it, the animal pays the price and in some cases is rehomed again...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> well to be honest that is also how the pet industry usually works as well.
> 
> dogs are property, if someone buys it, they can surely sell it.
> 
> I personally have never heard of clauses like yours that prohibit the sale of a dog, unless it was done as some sort of a co-ownership or lease.


I'm not even sure that portion of the contract would be enforceable, since there is no exchange of something of value.


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