# More playtime for the kids at 11 weeks



## Don Turnipseed

We do this for about 5 minutes twice a week at most.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v401/hicntry/High Country Airedales/?action=view&current=00109.mp4


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## Christopher Jones

They seem a little low in drive to me. Do Airdales tend to mature slowley compared to a typical shepherd?


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> We do this for about 5 minutes twice a week at most.
> 
> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v401/hicntry/High Country Airedales/?action=view&current=00109.mp4


That is honestly more often than we do it here with our puppies. So if you only fo it for 5 minutes twice a week, why do they act so burned out by the game? They act like they are forced to do it for 8 hours a day.


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## Sara Waters

I wouldnt call their style of play particularly exhilirating but if they are going to be hunting dogs I am not exactly sure what all this obsession with playing and object drive proves really. Is Don trying to prove something here, I dont know.

I personally couldnt care less if my sheepdog puppies are interested in playing tug or whatever. The lowest toy drive dog I have is total dynamite on small prey, she turns into a complete tornado when we hunt rabbits, and I have seen her catch, kill, pluck and eat a large parrot with a huge angry beak in a matter of minutes. My highest toy drive BC, I would prefer it if he were a bit calmer on sheep, but he lacks the natural calm instinct which can be a pain, he is a dynamo in the agility ring though. Suppose it depends on what you are specifically wanting the dog for.

Puppies play as they will, if they dont want to play they dont. I dont think you can force a pup to play?.


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## Edward Weiss

Don the pups look stout and the chests look to be DDR influence.
Don't want to act as aninternet trainer but it maybe of value to play with the pups individually .
Also back tying creates a different response.
Kasbah liked messing around and really wanted to keep what she caught.
Also I used different people to play with her.


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## Thomas Barriano

The video looks like it's in slow motion?
I agree with Ed do one puppy at a time or have them back tied and separated. MOVE the toy and keep it on the ground. Making it too easy for the puppy to get the toy and just maul it isn't accomplishing anything. You build drive by frustration not by mauling the prey object.


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> MOVE the toy and keep it on the ground.


IMO this is good advice and assuming that these videos are being put up for input and suggestions then this is also what I would add:

There should be less movement that looks like fishing and more movement utilizing the lunge line is an extension of actual prey movement. The object should be more real like in pliability (a wobbit is good for dogs like this or a leather rag), and the movement needs to be faster and somewhat erratic (slithering and scurrying about through the grass).

What needs to be exploited is their natural inclination for animals, work off that by simulating those behaviors (as noted above) and this process will have more substance to work with. It needs to be said that without an element of frustration, and I do believe this is necessary, what will likely happen is that as they mature their interest will fizzle out, especially once they have more access to the real deal. I say this from experience as it's exactly what happened with my mastiff.


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## Don Turnipseed

Edward Weiss said:


> Don the pups look stout and the chests look to be DDR influence.
> Don't want to act as aninternet trainer but it maybe of value to play with the pups individually .
> Also back tying creates a different response.
> Kasbah liked messing around and really wanted to keep what she caught.
> Also I used different people to play with her.


Nice picture Ed. I am always open to ideas....always have been. I agree about getting different responses completely. Put a dog on a leash, get a different response, put a fence between and get a different response work a dog separately, you will see a different response than working them min pairs or other multiples. I think we shou.ld wait and see what the end product is with my very come see, come sigh outlook on the total value of all this.

Thomas, some methods mentioned may increase frustration, may increase the desire to play as you give the play value. I can agree with that. You will never increase any real drive that the dog wasn't born with. That may be were these short once a week videos are going. Possibly to see what could look like a pup with mediocre drive at 7 to 8 weeks, to see what they are at 16 to 20 weeks. Told you many times, I don't take anyones word for any of this, but, I have always had enough dogs to test different theories it myself. Separates the wheat from the chaffe so to speak. By the way, working two dog together, creates competativeness rather than frustation. You really see this with two solid males or two females. The male, Cash, is going to be a SD dog. The female is a pet dog, no more. You can see Cash just laying there and getting drug across the grass and he seems to lose interest in the game easily. That is much the character of an SD dog as a pup, but, he is 10 times the dog the female is and a piece of cake to work in comparison.


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## Don Turnipseed

Here is a picture of Cash taken last night after dinner.
I was going out to the patio to finish my drink and have a chew and Cash was sitting in my chair.


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## Thomas Barriano

I totally disagree about not being able to increase drive. You can't create drive if there isn't any, but you sure can develop and improve what is there naturally.
Working multiple dogs can create competitiveness but the play has to be stimulating and the dogs can't access the reward at the same time because they're both satisfied, which kills the
competitiveness. I go with what I see not with what anyone says. Both the dogs in your video are slow, dull and disinterested in your toy. If you stopped feeding them for a couple of days and a little rabbit/squirrel or ? ran by. They'd have to have a LOT more drive then they show in the video or they'd starve. 



Don Turnipseed said:


> Thomas, some methods mentioned may increase frustration, may increase the desire to play as you give the play value. I can agree with that. You will never increase any real drive that the dog wasn't born with. That may be were these short once a week videos are going. Possibly to see what could look like a pup with mediocre drive at 7 to 8 weeks, to see what they are at 16 to 20 weeks. Told you many times, I don't take anyones word for any of this, but, I have always had enough dogs to test different theories it myself. Separates the wheat from the chaffe so to speak. By the way, working two dog together, creates competativeness rather than frustation. You really see this with two solid males or two females. The male, Cash, is going to be a SD dog. The female is a pet dog, no more. You can see Cash just laying there and getting drug across the grass and he seems to lose interest in the game easily. That is much the character of an SD dog as a pup, but, he is 10 times the dog the female is and a piece of cake to work in comparison.


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## Don Turnipseed

Thomas Barriano said:


> I totally disagree about not being able to increase drive. You can't create drive if there isn't any, but you sure can develop and improve what is there naturally.
> Working multiple dogs can create competitiveness but the play has to be stimulating and the dogs can't access the reward at the same time because they're both satisfied, which kills the
> competitiveness. I go with what I see not with what anyone says. Both the dogs in your video are slow, dull and disinterested in your toy. If you stopped feeding them for a couple of days and a little rabbit/squirrel or ? ran by. They'd have to have a LOT more drive then they show in the video or they'd starve.


Guess we will see Thomas.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> I totally disagree about not being able to increase drive. You can't create drive if there isn't any, but you sure can develop and improve what is there naturally.
> Working multiple dogs can create competitiveness but the play has to be stimulating and the dogs can't access the reward at the same time because they're both satisfied, which kills the
> competitiveness. I go with what I see not with what anyone says. Both the dogs in your video are slow, dull and disinterested in your toy. If you stopped feeding them for a couple of days and a little rabbit/squirrel or ? ran by. They'd have to have a LOT more drive then they show in the video or they'd starve.



Drive for a toy vs. drive for animals are two different traits. You can not assume from what you see in the videos that they wouldn't have prey drive for live animals. It can be a night and day difference. I've seen dogs go primal over animals that wouldn't look at a toyl which is why I call it object drive vs. prey drive.

T


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## Thomas Barriano

Drive is drive is drive
and 
No drive is no drive


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## Joby Becker

LOL

looks like slow motion.....keep it on the ground...said it already....

Don...put the toy in YOUR HAND,,,clap loud and make some noise.maybe yell a little......that is what I want to see...the uber confidence...these are supposed to be some of the most confident dogs on 4 legs..


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## Joby Becker

I meant to ask about an earlier thread, some pics with the pups heads in a hole..

Are you actually saying that there are still gophers or whatever taking up residence in your dog yards that have been populated by hunting airedales for the last however many years...I would think that they would be dead or have moved on by now..


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## Don Turnipseed

And playing with a toy that I am holding has what to do with confidence in your mind??? ](*,)


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> And playing with a toy that I am holding has what to do with confidence in your mind??? ](*,)


confidence towards YOU..


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> Drive is drive is drive
> and
> No drive is no drive


What are you getting at exactly Thomas? Are you suggesting that since these pups display low intensity for an object that there will also be little to no interest exhibited by them for an animal or am I misreading what you wrote?


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> What are you getting at exactly Thomas? Are you suggesting that since these pups display low intensity for an object that there will also be little to no interest exhibited by them for an animal or am I misreading what you wrote?


That's pretty much what I'm saying. Until I see them chasing a live critter. I can only base my opinion on the videos that Don posts. They all show slow dull dogs. Of course if Don put a little movement into the prey object they might react differently?


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## Don Turnipseed

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's pretty much what I'm saying. Until I see them chasing a live critter. I can only base my opinion on the videos that Don posts. They all show slow dull dogs. Of course if Don put a little movement into the prey object they might react differently?


So, what you are also saying is that your dogs will be the same on bears and hogs as they are on a toy, Thomas???? You better get another glass of kool aid.


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's pretty much what I'm saying. Until I see them chasing a live critter. I can only base my opinion on the videos that Don posts. They all show slow dull dogs. Of course if Don put a little movement into the prey object they might react differently?


Thomas, I won't speak for these dogs but I guarantee you that generalization is incorrect. If I had video to show you otherwise I'd produce it but this is about as good as it gets with an object and my dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mij4mERKNrg

Large game brings about an entirely different picture. She will also cross a river and swim up and down sections of it for literally hours hoping to catch a beaver. Willow is also highly stimulated by fishing and is no longer welcome to come along. Any obedience that she has goes entirely out the window. Punishment for disobedience has proven to be ineffective.


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## Bob Scott

In all fairness to the pups, and this is meant to be constructive criticism Don, but the handling of the flirt pole could be much better. The way it's being done is not giving the pups much stimulation. Keep it on the ground, work it a bit faster and make the pups miss occasionally. 
I wouldn't shoot the pups down for a total lack of drive without seeing someone with a bit more experience work the flirt pole. JMO of course!


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## Chad Sloan

From what I'm given to understand proper equipment is paramount to success in dog training. Maybe you should try looking into these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwRISkyV_B8. The color might help get the right motor running on your pups. Only if they have it that is, I hear a lot that there is no guarantee with puppies.


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## Don Turnipseed

I am really curious as to what the general thought is as to what the pups will do if I continue handling the flirt the way it is being done? Will they lose interest or what? Like I said, they only see this thing once a week, twice at the most because I am not trying to build interest where there is none.


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## Don Turnipseed

As a side note, I don't even bring the female or any of the paraphinalia home.


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## Joby Becker

OK,,

let someone else work the toy by hand..to see the confidence,,,

The point is this,,

either do it....or dont... why half-ass it and look for excuses for why it will fail...

it is all about interest and willingness to make it work.

Greyhounds do not like to play with toys much..but they sure do chase that fake rabbit down the track...

Don CAN make the toy as exciting as live game, if he actually chose to do so, and used proactive thinking to accomplish it as a goal..

if not..they why bother..


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## mike suttle

I've had several small terriers here over the past few years, mostly Patterdales, but also a Jagd and a couple JRTs. All of them were crazy to play with anything that moved when they were young, before they were about 6 months old and before they were allowed to hunt for and encouraged to kill live game (rabbits, groundhogs, rats, opossums, raccoons, feral barn cats, etc) These dogs would all chase and bite a rag on a flirt pole, they were all crazy for a ball or a tug toy. Many of them who were allowed to hunt lost interest in all toys after they had started fighting with real live game.
However, ALL of them at 8-16 weeks would show as much drive and intensity for any toy as most of our Malinois here. 
Many of these dogs were bought for contracts that required small breed terriers for detection work and those dogs were never allowed to even see any type of critter. None of these dogs ever lost their intensity for a toy.
But these Airdales are 11 weeks, they should be crazy to play with anything that moves I would think, at least all of the good terriers I've seen were crazy to play with any toy before they knew that critters were more fun.


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## Joby Becker

As far as i can sum it up, you have two choices..unless the genetics just blow....

you can go with theme song *A.
*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t57n0uUAclQ

or theme song *B*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSP9d2QH6OE

I choose *B*...


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## Nicole Stark

mike suttle said:


> But these Airdales are 11 weeks, they should be crazy to play with anything that moves I would think, at least all of the good terriers I've seen were crazy to play with any toy before they knew that critters were more fun.


Mike, if that kind of behavior was the norm for the AT, then I'd say it's a reasonable expectation to have here. I don't believe that is the norm for this breed and given my limited experience with the AT they're less terrier like then one would expect them to be. I guess I just mean that over the top tenacity in the smaller dogs would likely get a big game dog killed on the field.


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## mike suttle

Nicole Stark said:


> Mike, if that kind of behavior was the norm for the AT, then I'd say it's a reasonable expectation to have here. I don't believe that is the norm for this breed and given my limited experience with the AT they're less terrier like then one would expect them to be. I guess I just mean that over the top tenacity in the smaller dogs would likely get a big game dog killed on the field.


That could be true, I will admit that I don't know much about the breed. I saw one trying to do SchH work at the Tom Rose school several years ago, it was a huge piece of shit, but it did have some prey drive. My best friends dad has two of them, neither are very stable dogs, but both are very driven to play ball and tug with a toy. 
Don has said many times that any dog can do what our working dogs do,that is just a dog playing, however I dont think any of his dog can do it. At least I haven't seen anything to prove they can yet, but have seen enough to prove they can't.


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## Thomas Barriano

Don Turnipseed said:


> So, what you are also saying is that your dogs will be the same on bears and hogs as they are on a toy, Thomas???? You better get another glass of kool aid.


We're talking about the video you posted of your dogs. You claim your dogs are terrors on "tigers and bears and hogs oh my" but all you show is videos of low drive, low interest, half asleep dullards. Obviously a lot of that has to do with the fact that you are clueless on proper prey work and drive building. The likelihood of those puppies turning into Natural born hog killers is remote. PLEASE post a video of any of your Airedales
getting excited about anything.


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> Thomas, I won't speak for these dogs but I guarantee you that generalization is incorrect. If I had video to show you otherwise I'd produce it but this is about as good as it gets with an object and my dog.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mij4mERKNrg
> 
> Large game brings about an entirely different picture. She will also cross a river and swim up and down sections of it for literally hours hoping to catch a beaver. Willow is also highly stimulated by fishing and is no longer welcome to come along. Any obedience that she has goes entirely out the window. Punishment for disobedience has proven to be ineffective.


Nicole,

If a dog has drive? Different stimulation will elicit different levels of interest. My dogs are more excited by a decoy then by playing tug with me (that's why I'm having trouble getting a whistle recall for a tug away from a suited decoy).
I just have a hard time believing , based on all the video Don
has posted, that his dogs are all of a sudden going to turn into
drive monsters just because the stimulus is increased.


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## Don Turnipseed

Nicole Stark said:


> Mike, if that kind of behavior was the norm for the AT, then I'd say it's a reasonable expectation to have here. I don't believe that is the norm for this breed and given my limited experience with the AT they're less terrier like then one would expect them to be. I guess I just mean that over the top tenacity in the smaller dogs would likely get a big game dog killed on the field.


Nicole, you obviously have a better understanding of dogs and breeding than Suttle has. Either he is totally blind to how little terriers are in relation to the large terriers or he has another purpose for posting. Note: Ariel hasn't said anything. Another Ray Charles moment.

Also, seems to be bothering folks that I won't work the flirt like they want me to. They just can't get their heads around the fact that I am not trying to create something that isn't there....just see what is. I know it is tough, but get used to it. I want to see the difference between these dogs and my uncrossed pups. None of my dogs will be used for bitework so it really doesn't matter how I work a flirt.


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## Don Turnipseed

Thomas Barriano said:


> We're talking about the video you posted of your dogs. You claim your dogs are terrors on "tigers and bears and hogs oh my" but all you show is videos of low drive, low interest, half asleep dullards. Obviously a lot of that has to do with the fact that you are clueless on proper prey work and drive building. The likelihood of those puppies turning into Natural born hog killers is remote. PLEASE post a video of any of your Airedales
> getting excited about anything.


Actually, you are saying if my dogs aren't totally wound up about a toy on a string and "playing games", they won't hunt any better. Stands to reason that if your dog is, he would be great on dangerous game. Works both ways Thomas. I put up a videao of 4 pups at 7 weaks giving a towel hell. They had intensity, but all you saw was the one backing out after getting bit in the face. You will only see what Thomas wants to see. I quit putting multiples on a towel because it caused more puppy fights than was warrented for just playing a game.....even though it does greatly help in seeing what each pup brings to the table. Probably never occurred to you that I work dogs in multiples in the field, I train dogs in multiples. That can be seen in the housebreaking pictures also with multiple pups being trained at the same time. Something you can't quite understand even after 30 years of experience working one dog at a time.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nicole, you obviously have a better understanding of dogs and breeding than Suttle has. Either he is totally blind to how little terriers are in relation to the large terriers or he has another purpose for posting. Note: Ariel hasn't said anything. Another Ray Charles moment.
> 
> Also, seems to be bothering folks that I won't work the flirt like they want me to. They just can't get their heads around the fact that I am not trying to create something that isn't there....just see what is. I know it is tough, but get used to it. I want to see the difference between these dogs and my uncrossed pups. None of my dogs will be used for bitework so it really doesn't matter how I work a flirt.


I haven't said anything because you're absolutely right, it doesn't matter how you work a flirt. I would never let you work any of my dogs with your technique, but it's your prerogative to play with your own pups however you see fit. You're trying to prove a point and what is clear is that you're proving exactly the opposite of what you think. You sure have a lot to say but when it's time to put up or shut up, you fall short. And if we're going with the musical theme, maybe this is appropriate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI7YzUKE_wI&ob=av3e


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nicole, you obviously have a better understanding of dogs and breeding than Suttle has. Either he is totally blind to how little terriers are in relation to the large terriers or he has another purpose for posting.


I'm simply saying that the 3 Airdales that I have had some time to watch and evaluate had way more prey drive than anything I have seen in any of your videos. I will say that all three of those AT were pretty much nervebags, but at least they had drive to play and chase things, not something that I have seen from any of your dogs so far.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> I put up a videao of 4 pups at 7 weaks giving a towel hell. They had intensity


I missed that video Don, can you post a link to it, I'd love to see it.


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## Edward Weiss

Different lines for different purposes.
It's been my observation that you breed for show or go.
After 70 plus years tight line for sport work gets sport/work.
http://www.airedale-kft.de/Ergebnisdienst/KLSP/KLSP09/klsp09.html
Hunting big game ...big game

I have seen 100 plus Dales competing in bird/fur trials....convinced me there is a very wide spectrum in the breed and if you breed show that's pretty much what you get ...there is always a throw back to the American dogs of old time hunting lines.
BTW Google Heideterrier...Airedale x small terrier


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## Thomas Barriano

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually, you are saying if my dogs aren't totally wound up about a toy on a string and "playing games", they won't hunt any better. Stands to reason that if your dog is, he would be great on dangerous game. Works both ways Thomas. I put up a videao of 4 pups at 7 weaks giving a towel hell. They had intensity, but all you saw was the one backing out after getting bit in the face. You will only see what Thomas wants to see. I quit putting multiples on a towel because it caused more puppy fights than was warrented for just playing a game.....even though it does greatly help in seeing what each pup brings to the table. Probably never occurred to you that I work dogs in multiples in the field, I train dogs in multiples. That can be seen in the housebreaking pictures also with multiple pups being trained at the same time. Something you can't quite understand even after 30 years of experience working one dog at a time.



Actually all I want to see is any of your dogs AWAKE in the video. "Totally wound up" is way more then I've come to expect.

Your talk doesn't match the videos you post. It's called a flirt pole and not a fishing pole for a reason.

It never occurred to me that you work or train dogs at all.
Much less in multiples.


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## rick smith

the only guy i know that hunts with his dogs (kai-ken on boar) doesn't do any "puppy training" unless you would consider letting them in pens with smaller pigs training, and that looked more like testing to me than training.
but he does take the young dogs out; they stay on lead and watch the action

he might toss sticks and ruff house with em to see what they can take, but def no tugs/rags/towels or toys and no FP work either that i know of.
- no house breaking or "manner training" cause they almost never go inside a house that people use

are you doing this FP stuff just to show "it don't matter", and is any of this part of your program Don ??


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## Gillian Schuler

Airedale pups six weeks' old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btZ54SQHn-o&feature=related


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> Nicole,
> 
> If a dog has drive? Different stimulation will elicit different levels of interest. My dogs are more excited by a decoy then by playing tug with me (that's why I'm having trouble getting a whistle recall for a tug away from a suited decoy).
> I just have a hard time believing , based on all the video Don
> has posted, that his dogs are all of a sudden going to turn into
> drive monsters just because the stimulus is increased.


Thomas, again not speaking for Don but I can tell you that until I experienced this myself I'd have said the same (BS). This dog has flat out impressed me more times than I can count with her speed, reactivity, tenacity, athleticism, endurance, strength, tracking/trailing ability, resourcefulness, etc. I like her and truly enjoy what she brings to the table. Certainly she's not your norm in the spectrum of dogs people typically work with here but I do consider her to be a near perfect dog for the environment I raise my dogs within.


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## Don Turnipseed

Gillian Schuler said:


> Airedale pups six weeks' old:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btZ54SQHn-o&feature=related


Thank you Gillian. Looks like very balanced pups to me.


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> Thomas, again not speaking for Don but I can tell you that until I experienced this myself I'd have said the same (BS). This dog has flat out impressed me more times than I can count with her speed, reactivity, tenacity, athleticism, endurance, strength, tracking/trailing ability, resourcefulness, etc. I like her and truly enjoy what she brings to the table. Certainly she's not your norm in the spectrum of dogs people typically work with here but I do consider her to be a near perfect dog for the environment I raise my dogs within.


What dog are you talking about?


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## Thomas Barriano

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thank you Gillian. Looks like very balanced pups to me.


Don,

Can you really not see the difference in intensity and exploration in these puppies and yours?


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> What dog are you talking about?


The oafy one in the video, not the Yard Dart.


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> The oafy one in the video, not the Yard Dart.



Huh? I'm talking about the original video that Don posted with the two Airedale puppies. I have NOT commented on the video you posted.


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> Huh? I'm talking about the original video that Don posted with the two Airedale puppies. I have NOT commented on the video you posted.


Thomas, follow along please. I interjected something, the normal progression of a conversation would be to respond to that, which you kinda did, and then I did. See just like a game of tennis. But please carry on with your Airedale conversation, that's more interesting I think.


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> Thomas, follow along please. I interjected something, the normal progression of a conversation would be to respond to that, which you kinda did, and then I did. See just like a game of tennis. But please carry on with your Airedale conversation, that's more interesting I think.


Too much trouble making sense of your posts. I'm done


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## Guest

Also, seems to be bothering folks that I won't work the flirt like they want me to. They just can't get their heads around the fact that I am not trying to create something that isn't there....just see what is. I know it is tough, but get used to it. I want to see the difference between these dogs and my uncrossed pups. None of my dogs will be used for bitework so it really doesn't matter how I work a flirt.[/QUOTE]

But what if you did? Use it the way people are are telling you? You could pick up something, or someone else? If not your post are just teasing and being ignorant. I didn't want to look at this thread at all and here I am, yup, I probably shouldn't have though.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Also, seems to be bothering folks that I won't work the flirt like they want me to. They just can't get their heads around the fact that I am not trying to create something that isn't there....just see what is. I know it is tough, but get used to it. I want to see the difference between these dogs and my uncrossed pups. None of my dogs will be used for bitework so it really doesn't matter how I work a flirt.


The problem with the way you're working the flirt is it's not going to give you an accurate assessment of what is there. If you work the flirt in a slow, lazy manner, you encourage the puppies to be slow and lazy. You'd be better off not playing with them at all rather than playing with them as you've been. You're making the game boring for them. You believe using a back tie and creating frustration for the rag/toy is creating something in the puppies. It doesn't. It just encourages them to express drive that is already there but not developed. You're teaching them that the toy really isn't much fun at all. It doesn't react when they bite it or interact with it. It's not difficult to catch. When they lose interest, you just let it hang there and follow them around with it until they decide there's nothing better to do. You need to play hard to get. I would think you'd understand that, being the ladies' man you are. If it's too easy, it's not worth the chase.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> None of my dogs will be used for bitework so it really doesn't matter how I work a flirt.


Now this is something that you and I can certainly agree on Don.


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## Bob Scott

Mike gave me pause to think when he mentioned the little terriers. Don's dogs will hit 90-100 lbs as adults. How many of any breed that large will we see quick, flashy pups? Not going to happen! 
Not a dig on their size. That Don's choice to breed whatever size he wants. 
I've seen a few of little guys loose interest in the artificial den trials once they have done the real thing but I've never seen one of the crazy little bassids loose interest in a tug or ball. The little guys are in a different world then most any dog of any size.
I'd still like to see "correct" flirt pole work just to ease my curiosity.


----------



## Chad Sloan

mike suttle said:


> Now this is something that you and I can certainly agree on Don.


He's not the only one with a dog that doesn't know how to shut its mouth.


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## mike suttle

Chad Sloan said:


> He's not the only one with a dog that doesn't know how to shut its mouth.


please explain what you mean by this chad


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## Chad Sloan

Didn't your friends tell you? Explanations cost extra.


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## Christopher Jones

And here we go.....


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## brad robert

Chad Sloan said:


> Didn't your friends tell you? Explanations cost extra.


Your a fruit aren't you!!


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## Chad Sloan

How bad you wanna know?


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## mike suttle

Chad Sloan said:


> Didn't your friends tell you? Explanations cost extra.


Just wanted to see if you had the balls to say what you were really implying with that remark. 
I guess you don't.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Bob Scott said:


> will hit 90-100 lbs as adults. How many of any breed that large will we see quick, flashy pups? Not going to happen!


I've seen Malinois and Dutch Shepherd pups that hit 85-90 as adults that were pretty quick/flashy. Not as quick/flashy as pups who were going to be more in the 60-70 range, but definitely quicker/flashier than the pups in the video. So I don't think it's all about size. Sometimes rate of maturity comes into play also, with some breeds being slower to get going.


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## Bob Scott

Chad Sloan said:


> He's not the only one with a dog that doesn't know how to shut its mouth.



Lets keep the crap out of the discussion. If you or anyone else feels the need to stir the pot then take it to PMs.


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## Bob Scott

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've seen Malinois and Dutch Shepherd pups that hit 85-90 as adults that were pretty quick/flashy. Not as quick/flashy as pups who were going to be more in the 60-70 range, but definitely quicker/flashier than the pups in the video. So I don't think it's all about size. Sometimes rate of maturity comes into play also, with some breeds being slower to get going.



Kadi, to compare a Mali or Dutchi to any other breed in the context of agility would be like comparing a JRT to any toy breed! :-D :wink:


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## Nicole Stark

Bob Scott said:


> Kadi, to compare a Mali or Dutchi to any other breed in the context of agility would be like comparing a JRT to any toy breed! :-D :wink:


There always seems to be an exception to the rule and this is certainly one of them.


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## Don Turnipseed

Some go to the school yard or living room to train dogs for games and trying to bring out all these characteristics you think are hidden away in dogs.....I work my dogs a whole lot different....never found much of a use for a flirt pole or tying a pup back for frustration. In the end, won't matter much how I use a flirt pole....if they got what I want it will come out and the pups won't know the difference anyway. :grin:

4 1/2 week old pups









7 week old pups










14 week old pup









7 week old pup









20 week old pup









9 week old pup









9 week old pup


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## Kadi Thingvall

Nicole Stark said:


> There always seems to be an exception to the rule and this is certainly one of them.


Maybe it shouldn't be an exception


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## Sara Waters

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Maybe it shouldn't be an exception


Those papillions are agile, fast and feisty little dogs. In a different way to a JRT perhaps but they are difficult to beat in the mimi classes in agility comps.

On the subject of how often one plays with pups, my cattle dog pup loved to have a good game of tug at any time of the day, they always seemed ready and I would rush home at lunch time every day when I lived in a town to play with them when they were babies. There was some mention earlier in this thread about only for a short time not that often - curious as to what what is that reasoning?. I always seemed to be playing with my lot.


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## Chad Sloan

Bob Scott said:


> Lets keep the crap out of the discussion. If you or anyone else feels the need to stir the pot then take it to PMs.


That's what I was doing. Besides, people, like dogs often have insecurities and I don't find it it useful to worry myself over what inferences or actions those cause when there are more secure individuals to be used for work.


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## Nicole Stark

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Maybe it shouldn't be an exception


Oh? 

No matter how big that Dutch of mine would or could get it doesn't change the fact that she's a useless animal in certain environments. Fast, smart, agile, and again all that is relatively useless. No offense meant here, but this isn't a point worth looking at further as far as I am concerned


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## Ariel Peldunas

Chad Sloan said:


> That's what I was doing. Besides, people, like dogs often have insecurities and I don't find it it useful to worry myself over what inferences or actions those cause when there are more secure individuals to be used for work.


Huh? Perhaps just refrain from posting unless you have something pertinent or useful to say. I've yet to find anything you've posted on any thread relevant or informative.


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## Chad Sloan

Keep looking. I'm sure you'll find something worth repeating eventually.


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## Bob Scott

Sara Waters said:


> Those papillions are agile, fast and feisty little dogs. In a different way to a JRT perhaps but they are difficult to beat in the mimi classes in agility comps.
> 
> On the subject of how often one plays with pups, my cattle dog pup loved to have a good game of tug at any time of the day, they always seemed ready and I would rush home at lunch time every day when I lived in a town to play with them when they were babies. There was some mention earlier in this thread about only for a short time not that often - curious as to what what is that reasoning?. I always seemed to be playing with my lot.



The Paps are also the top toy breed in OB competition.


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## Don Turnipseed

Kind of says it all. Not one comment on the pictures pointing out how differently my dogs are worked as opposed to chasing toys on a flirt. Probably wasn't covered in the videos y'all learned from. Like I said, I want to see what the dog actually brings to the table for real, not what I can con myself into believing the dog has chasing toy. I guess the main point is the pups are worked....just not the way y'all do. :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

I can do this all day......but I don't do work a flirt right according to Thomas?????? KMFA 

10 week old pups









7 week old pups









Wild Bill treeing a squirrel









5 month old Shelby









Apache at the nationals









Apaches owner at the nationals with his trophies and ribbons









Yours truly collecting ribbons and trophies at the nationals









Alex collecting his ribbons for another High Country dog at the nationals(don't even remember the dogs name)









More 7 week old pups with a squirrel









Well trained dogs watching me cutting up their chicken from the line of no return









Buck









Zeke in the ocean of of Vancouver,BC









Trophies from working dogs









State certified dog that spends three days a week in schools working with disadvantaged kids.


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## Sara Waters

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kind of says it all. Not one comment on the pictures pointing out how differently my dogs are worked as opposed to chasing toys on a flirt. Probably wasn't covered in the videos y'all learned from. Like I said, I want to see what the dog actually brings to the table for real, not what I can con myself into believing the dog has chasing toy. I guess the main point is the pups are worked....just not the way y'all do. :wink:


Don I recall that a few of us have acknowledged the fact that chasing toys and a flirt thingy whatever that is is not a deal breaker when it comes to selecting working puppies in some areas of work.

Certainly in herding puppies it is not something anyone cares about, or among people with pig dogs etc. For other areas of real work like drug detection, police work etc and some sports activities eg agility it probably is among the highly desirable requirements along with other inherited traits for good reasons that others have pointed out.

I am still not sure where all this is going. If your pups do what they are bred to do why worry about comments on the nature of your pups interaction with the flirt thingy. I have a dog that wont go near a toy, he likes to rough it up in body to body contact with me and he works sheep and runs agility good. If I showed him in a vid on the flirty he would probably be standing looking at it and me like I was stark raving bonkers and people would have no idea what he is actually capable of and think he was a real loser. 

You have posted some nice working photos of your dogs but it only shows that they are doing what they are bred to do in that area of work and doesnt really negate the use of toy drive in other areas of working dogs.

Just as people who dont herd or hunt with dogs perhaps don't understand that toy drive is somewhat irrelevant as an indication of the quality of a pup being selected for that type of work.

Or maybe you guys just like havin a go at each other for the sport.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kind of says it all. Not one comment on the pictures pointing out how differently my dogs are worked as opposed to chasing toys on a flirt. Probably wasn't covered in the videos y'all learned from. Like I said, I want to see what the dog actually brings to the table for real, not what I can con myself into believing the dog has chasing toy. I guess the main point is the pups are worked....just not the way y'all do. :wink:


What, exactly, is your point, Don? Most of your pictures show dogs swimming, being obedient or just being dogs. A couple show dogs retrieving or chewing on small prey. I understand that this is the "work" your dogs do and none of it requires the use of a flirt pole or the sort of drive I look for in the dogs I work with. But as Sara and a number of others have pointed out, there are many working dog applications that rely on a dog's instincts to accomplish a task. However, there are many other working dog applications that necessitate the use of flirt poles, balls, tugs, etc. to train and reinforce behaviors. You're trying to prove that using a flirt pole is useless, but you're comparing apples to oranges. Nothing you've shown your dogs doing requires much training ...save the retrieving and obedience, both of which can be accomplished through force if the dog lacks drive or you choose not to reward. 

I'm not discrediting the things people have done with your dogs, but it's not relevant to your argument regarding using the flirt pole. If you want to prove a point, show your dogs doing protection work or substance detection that have been trained without the use of a flirt pole, balls, tugs, treats and other rewards. That is how this whole topic started, isn't it? You felt training dogs for protection work was useless because dogs without training would protect. When it was proved that, in most cases (included the case of your dogs), that is not true, instead of considering the information that Dave and I and others tried to offer, you just pick apart our training methods. No one is saying you need to train your dogs to chase a flirt pole if you're going to hunt or do therapy work with them. But, if you are interested in doing protection work or at least choose to have an opinion on it and participate in discussions about it, maybe you should have an understanding of the methods and drives in play. Lazily flipping around a toy for a couple of your puppies a handful of times teaching them (and you) nothing and proves nothing but your continued ignorance of the subject.

On a side note, what is Buck retrieving in that photo?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Its the same pictures you've posted for a couple of years. What I don't understand is why post videos of flirt pole work and then when its stated that your dogs aren't showing the drive and possibly due to the lack of technique, we now have, I don't care if they have object drive or not. Don, static pictures don't really show a dog in action doing anything. You have cute puppies and people have been able to do things with them in various venues. Rather than seeing an attempt at now you have it now you don't with a flirt pole, I would have been much more interested in seeing them on the hunting forum with any work that would prepare them for the work that you say they do. There are people on this forum who have well trained house dogs, have had TDI dogs, have titled dogs and whose dogs swim, retrieve and will rip apart a small animal dead or alive. Its the rule rather than the exception. Maybe that's why there's no comment. 

T


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## Don Turnipseed

Sara Waters said:


> Don I recall that a few of us have acknowledged the fact that chasing toys and a flirt thingy whatever that is is not a deal breaker when it comes to selecting working puppies in some areas of work.
> 
> Certainly in herding puppies it is not something anyone cares about, or among people with pig dogs etc. For other areas of real work like drug detection, police work etc and some sports activities eg agility it probably is among the highly desirable requirements along with other inherited traits for good reasons that others have pointed out.
> 
> I am still not sure where all this is going. If your pups do what they are bred to do why worry about comments on the nature of your pups interaction with the flirt thingy. I have a dog that wont go near a toy, he likes to rough it up in body to body contact with me and he works sheep and runs agility good. If I showed him in a vid on the flirty he would probably be standing looking at it and me like I was stark raving bonkers and people would have no idea what he is actually capable of and think he was a real loser.
> 
> You have posted some nice working photos of your dogs but it only shows that they are doing what they are bred to do in that area of work and doesnt really negate the use of toy drive in other areas of working dogs.
> 
> Just as people who dont herd or hunt with dogs perhaps don't understand that toy drive is somewhat irrelevant as an indication of the quality of a pup being selected for that type of work.
> 
> Or maybe you guys just like havin a go at each other for the sport.


Sarah, first off, I want to congradulate you on giving Ariel something to repeat.....again.

What is the importance of this discussion on the flirt and how it is used? Let me explain it. I have been told many times now, there is a correct way and a wrong way. The wrong way will cause a dog to loose interest and do more harm than good. I have been told by the big A herself that it would be better if I didn't work the pup rather than work them wrong with the flirt. I already stated once or twice, I use my pups as the test medium to check out "theory" that keeps getting thrown out here. You know as well as I do, real drive will not be ruined by as simple as the missuse of a flirt. Just can't be done. I am using the flirt wrong for a reason. I am testing to see how easy it is to actually ruin a dog if it really has drive. I am assuming, if the pup really has drive, it will be totally unaffected by any misuse of a flirt. What will that in itself say?

Backpeddaling time now for those that feel a real need....quick people...


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sarah, first off, I want to congradulate you on giving Ariel something to repeat.....again.
> 
> What is the importance of this discussion on the flirt and how it is used? Let me explain it. I have been told many times now, there is a correct way and a wrong way. The wrong way will cause a dog to loose interest and do more harm than good. I have been told by the big A herself that it would be better if I didn't work the pup rather than work them wrong with the flirt. I already stated once or twice, I use my pups as the test medium to check out "theory" that keeps getting thrown out here. You know as well as I do, real drive will not be ruined by as simple as the missuse of a flirt. Just can't be done. I am using the flirt wrong for a reason. I am testing to see how easy it is to actually ruin a dog if it really has drive. I am assuming, if the pup really has drive, it will be totally unaffected by any misuse of a flirt. What will that in itself say?
> 
> Backpeddaling time now for those that feel a real need....quick people...


Don, many people, including me, have said what Sara did. She gets it. Terrasita gets it. Nicole gets it. I get it. A bunch of others get it. I don't see the use in wasting time and effort repeating something again and again, but I do think it's worth continuing to point out to you because you continue to ignore that point. I have plenty of original thought and observations from what I've done with my own dogs and dogs I've trained, but there's no sense in restating something that has already been said. It's stupid to believe that anything you think, do or say hasn't been thought of, said or done before. It's how you apply those theories that matters.

Regarding the flirt pole ...you just don't get it, do you? You're not proving anything if you don't ever use the dogs for a purpose that require use of a flirt pole to train. It would be like me doing a herding instinct test to test how my dogs will work as protection dogs. One has nothing to do with the other. If you're not going to train your dogs to do protection work, then you will never see if your dogs could ever have the drive to do that sort of work. Using a flirt pole, building drive for rags, tugs, balls, etc. has no place in what you do with your dogs. You (supposedly) hunt with them and that simply requires them to have a genetic predisposition to chase and catch game. However, if you want those same dogs to protect you (as you believed they would) they need to be trained to do the task and that requires something more than the desire to chase a pig or bear. A flirt pole and the subsequent bite development techniques are almost always necessary to produce a reliable protection dog. What you're doing with the flirt pole is a meaningless game to both you and the pups if never used as a tool in training for a larger goal.

But, keep playing with your pups and posting your videos, Don. If nothing else, it's a source of amusement to see how little you know or understand about the true purpose of what you're doing.


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## Don Turnipseed

Like I said, backpeddal if you feel the need to. I will document how the drive is affected, or unaffected, by the misuse of the flirt. Who knows, maybe the dogs will lose all interest and you will be right.....but I won't take your word, or anyone elses, as gospel Ariel. The general opinion is, these dogs you work have so much drive. Why do they all have to be handled with kid gloves to keep that drive? That is what I want to see. If you don't, ignore the rest of this this "foolishness".


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## leslie cassian

_ I am testing to see how easy it is to actually ruin a dog if it really has drive. I am assuming, if the pup really has drive, it will be totally unaffected by any misuse of a flirt. What will that in itself say?_

It will say that a really drivey dog is pretty hard to ruin. I think there are a lot of ways to ruin a dog - playing with them in a lame fashion is probably not one of them. It may make it harder for someone else to play that game later with the intent of working with the dog, but the dog will not be ruined. A bit of a waste of time and energy on the handler's part to go about it in a useless and ineffective manner, but if you're enjoying the game, fill yer boots.

Will your dogs ever be tested in any of the disciplines that trainers who do play with a flirt or toy or tug with their dogs, train for? Like protection, or detection, or will they be hog hunting dogs? Because if they are just going to do what they would do anyway, I can't imagine that anything you are doing with a flirt or rag is going to make the least bit of difference.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Nicole Stark said:


> No matter how big that Dutch of mine would or could get it doesn't change the fact that she's a useless animal in certain environments. Fast, smart, agile, and again all that is relatively useless.


While those may not be traits you use in certain environments (what environments/jobs are those?) are they actually detriments? Are you saying that being slow, stupid and lumbering are actually positives in certain environments?

I might be able to understand not neccessarily needing fast, smart and agile for some uses,but I can't see them being a detriment, so I don't see why a breeder wouldn't be aiming for those traits in the puppies they breed, regardless of the breed. I'm not comparing a 150 lb dog to a 90 lb dog, but I think when looking at various 90 lb dogs the goal should be to have as much speed/agility as possible without loosing the physical traits that make that breed that breed. Ie a 90 lb Rott or Bulldog may not be quite as fast as a 90 lb Malinois, Dobe, Schnauzer, GSD, etc because they are supposed to be a thicker built dog, but that doesn't mean they can't be fast, smart and agile for their build.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Like I said, backpeddal if you feel the need to. I will document how the drive is affected, or unaffected, by the misuse of the flirt. Who knows, maybe the dogs will lose all interest and you will be right.....but I won't take your word, or anyone elses, as gospel Ariel. The general opinion is, these dogs you work have so much drive. Why do they all have to be handled with kid gloves to keep that drive? That is what I want to see. If you don't, ignore the rest of this this "foolishness".


Good luck then, Don. I'm sure your experiment will yield whatever conclusion you desire. I realize reality and common sense will play no part in your observations. When I see one of your dogs doing something that requires drive and intensity for something other than an animal, then perhaps I will give your opinions on protection dogs and trainers some consideration.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am using the flirt wrong for a reason. I am testing to see how easy it is to actually ruin a dog if it really has drive.


Got it.....that makes perfect sense to me. :razz:


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Like I said, backpeddal if you feel the need to. I will document how the drive is affected, or unaffected, by the misuse of the flirt. Who knows, maybe the dogs will lose all interest and you will be right.....but I won't take your word, or anyone elses, as gospel Ariel. The general opinion is, these dogs you work have so much drive. Why do they all have to be handled with kid gloves to keep that drive? That is what I want to see. If you don't, ignore the rest of this this "foolishness".


Don, I think more then one person here has stated that what your doing with a flirt pole, correct or not in our eyes, will have nothing to do with the dog's desire or ability to hunt but you still refer to how "maybe the dogs will loose all interest and you will be right".
The flirt pole comments from the other members and myself are nothing more then wanting to see it done.....:-k ..... :idea: "differently" so we can get a better idea of what your dogs are capable of. If your not interested in that then why post picks of your flirt pole work then claim that it wont ruin their hunting desire as you seem to think that folks here have said? I think we can all agree that it wont!
As for the dogs "all having to be handled with kid gloves", I think the precision needed in bite sport work, even good obedience competition requires a much different approach then "training" a big game dog. I hunted with working bred earth dogs for many years. I've hunted with **** hounds. I even trained one of my terriers to do bird work. Iv'e been involved in SAR work. Those ventures had NOTHING to do with any type of competition training I've done. Nothing more, nothing less! I've never seen any of it as "handling with kid gloves". To the contrary, I think most here would NOT be looked at as kid glove trainers. Skilled in many methods, but definitely NOT kid glove trainers.
If you truly see what you want to see in your dogs then I completely agree that you should ignore the rest. The "ignore" button is always open to those that want it!


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob, why should I be the one to use the ignore button? Really??? I am so stupid and do everything wrong, seems to me Ariel and the others would be the best ones to put me on ignore. They don't have to watch it....but they are not everyone. They won't put me on ignore.....they couldn't stand it and we both know it. The fact is, working dogs don't have to win multiple hundreds of times to avoid ruining the dog. You know it and I know it. Not finding game, for days at a time, or getting beat up half to death by that game never stopped a good hole dog never stopped a good hole dog any anymore than it does mine. I know what I am doing with the flirt won't ruin my dogs for what they do, that is a given. My dogs are not game players and what I want to see is if, even though I am not doing anything to specs and not letting the dogs win enough by getting the toy, will they quit playing or get serious about the game. Good experiment that anyone can follow. Of course I could crate them most the day and make the game the only thing in their life to create an obsession....but I will never do that. You and I both know it could go either way. I may have a surprise coming.


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## Doug Zaga

LMFAO...Don you really are a hilarious ole bastard...you are purposely MISusing the flirt pole to see if you can ruin a dog if he has drive????

Don..I think you have been hidden from society way too long up there at the Don Ranch.. part of old age maybe onset of dementia dude???!

I like you Don but you can surely sling the bull around to justify your opinions and training experiments.. LMAO!


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not finding game, for days at a time, or getting beat up half to death by that game never stopped a good hole dog never stopped a good hole dog any anymore than it does mine.


And what do you think the difference is between what those dogs do and what protection dogs do? Could it be that it's not normal for most dogs to view humans as prey? The dogs you talk about naturally view their quarry as prey which is why they aren't deterred by the pain and pressure inflicted upon them during the hunt. Even when the prey fights back, the dogs that hang in there believe they are stronger and tougher than the game and are stimulated even further by the fight. In fighting weaker prey, the dogs learn if they fight harder, longer and with more aggression, eventually they win and the prey is killed.

In order to train protection dogs that humans can be dealt with in the same manner we must make humans prey. This is why dogs that have been raised by heavy-handed, domineering owners or dogs who have been undersocialized often do not make good protection dogs. They lack the confidence to believe they can overpower a human because they have been conditioned to submit to humans. Even if the dog is socialized and confident, it still must learn to view a human as prey in order to teach them to engage and fight them (except in the rare case of a dog that is confident and has high levels of natural aggression). This is what we use the flirt pole for. It's the first step in teaching the dog to view something other than a live animal as prey. Through training, we transition from the flirt pole through other steps in training to eventually arrive at the end goal of the dog being willing to engage a human with or without equipment.


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## Sara Waters

Don Turnipseed said:


> My dogs are not game players and what I want to see is if, even though I am not doing anything to specs and not letting the dogs win enough by getting the toy, will they quit playing or get serious about the game. Good experiment that anyone can follow. Of course I could crate them most the day and make the game the only thing in their life to create an obsession....but I will never do that. You and I both know it could go either way. I may have a surprise coming.


For me the answer is yes. My working BC also doubles as my best agility prospect. There is nothing like a good game with his favourite toy - the udder tug to get him screaming through the weaves at high speed. 

If however in the middle of agility training I gave him an indication that we were about to work the sheep in the neighbouring paddock he would spit out his beloved udder tug and immediately go into sheep mode which is truly what he loves doing most and what he was bred to do.

There are sometimes sheep in the paddock right next to my agility area, and IF I ask him to go out which is a command I use for working away from me in agility and also part of the get out command I use for casting he will still focus on agility. If I were to stop him and indicate get out on the sheep he would instantly go into cast mode.

My dogs all love hunting rabbits and roos if I were to let them. I am sure that building toy drive in them has no bearing on this what so ever.


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## Don Turnipseed

Told you Bob. LMAO


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## Sara Waters

Doug Zaga said:


> LMFAO...Don you really are a hilarious ole bastard...you are purposely MISusing the flirt pole to see if you can ruin a dog if he has drive????
> 
> Don..I think you have been hidden from society way too long up there at the Don Ranch.. part of old age maybe onset of dementia dude???!
> 
> I like you Don but you can surely sling the bull around to justify your opinions and training experiments.. LMAO!


 
LOL, you said what I was thinking


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## mike suttle

Doug Zaga said:


> I like you Don but you can surely sling the bull around to justify your opinions and training experiments.. LMAO!


You know the funny thing is that I feel the same way about him. Even though he is absolutely clueless about anything we do as working dog trainers, and he is pretty obnoxious in the way he tries to pound his fist and convince us all that he is right, it's still hard for me to get really mad at him, he reminds me of my grandad in a lot of ways........its hard to hate your grandad.


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bob, why should I be the one to use the ignore button? Really??? I am so stupid and do everything wrong, seems to me Ariel and the others would be the best ones to put me on ignore. They don't have to watch it....but they are not everyone. They won't put me on ignore.....they couldn't stand it and we both know it. The fact is, working dogs don't have to win multiple hundreds of times to avoid ruining the dog. You know it and I know it. Not finding game, for days at a time, or getting beat up half to death by that game never stopped a good hole dog never stopped a good hole dog any anymore than it does mine. I know what I am doing with the flirt won't ruin my dogs for what they do, that is a given. My dogs are not game players and what I want to see is if, even though I am not doing anything to specs and not letting the dogs win enough by getting the toy, will they quit playing or get serious about the game. Good experiment that anyone can follow. Of course I could crate them most the day and make the game the only thing in their life to create an obsession....but I will never do that. You and I both know it could go either way. I may have a surprise coming.


 
the problem is with IGNORE button, if a person dabbles in most threads that have nothing to do with them, just there to be arrogant and obnoxious you rarely have anything to read since everything is a reply and they may be in every thread....


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## leslie cassian

Great discussion. Thanks for posting that video Don. 

I have learned a lot from the back and forth exchange and from thinking about what I wanted to post to add to this thread. 

Keep up the good work.


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## Don Turnipseed

leslie cassian said:


> Great discussion. Thanks for posting that video Don.
> 
> I have learned a lot from the back and forth exchange and from thinking about what I wanted to post to add to this thread.
> 
> Keep up the good work.


Will do. :wink:


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## Bob Scott

"I know what I am doing with the flirt won't ruin my dogs for what they do, that is a given".


It's also been "a given" for the others in this discussion. That's been established by more then a couple of folks but you contradict yourself with the next sentence.
" My dogs are not game players and what I want to see is if, even though I am not doing anything to specs and not letting the dogs win enough by getting the toy, will they quit playing or get serious about the game. Good experiment that anyone can follow".
You/we know it's a "given" yet you "want to see if."

I also stated that the ignore button is open to anyone that wants to use it. Not just you.


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## Don Turnipseed

"You/we know it's a "given" yet you "want to see if."

That's right Bob. It obviously isn't a given to many here. The if is what "IF" they really get more into gameplaying even when it is all done counter to what people say works and what they want to see. Not ruining my dogs is the given, but improving is not but will tell me something. Nothing at all contadictory except how you are interpreting what I said possibly. Personally, I would guess the bigger challenge of not making it easy will make the game more challenging to them and make it less of a game.


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## Sara Waters

Don Turnipseed said:


> "You/we know it's a "given" yet you "want to see if."
> 
> That's right Bob. It obviously isn't a given to many here. The if is what "IF" they really get more into gameplaying even when it is all done counter to what people say works and what they want to see. Not ruining my dogs is the given, but improving is not but will tell me something. Nothing at all contadictory except how you are interpreting what I said possibly. Personally, I would guess the bigger challenge of not making it easy will make the game more challenging to them and make it less of a game.


Mmm okay well I certainly interpreted some of what you said the wrong way. Still not sure exactly what you are trying to discover and indeed if it is a worthwhile experiment. Cant say I would be bothering with my sheep dogs. Most of em love a good game with me anyway. I certainly am not inclined to make it an unpleasant experience for them by making it less of a game. Why would I ? some of my dogs will tug regardless of how often I let them win, others would not find things so fun and probably become less enthusiastic to play with the toy, but none of it would have a bearing on their ability to work sheep.

I am still not sure what your reasoning is here when it comes to your dogs.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> The general opinion is, these dogs you work have so much drive. Why do they all have to be handled with kid gloves to keep that drive?


I dont know many well bred working dogs that need to handled with "kid gloves". I can tell you for 100% sure that I don't coddle our puppies at all. In fact I have had Ariel ask me more than once if I thought maybe I was expecting too much from our puppies or being too hard on them in bitework, or making the searches too difficult in detection work because they are so young......(she was right about the detection work by the way)
But if you are implying that hunting dog people don't take baby steps with their dogs, then why are all of your pictures of your pups taken with dead squirrels? Why not throw your 7 week old pups in a cage with a 40 lb live raccoon? Or maybe put your pups with a caged sow hog with a new litter of piglets?
Why do you start them of with "kid gloves" and a harmless dead squak?


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## Thomas Barriano

Maybe Don needs to set up a separate topic on how many ways he can deliberately fuk up his dogs to "prove" a point?


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## Don Turnipseed

Sara Waters said:


> Mmm okay well I certainly interpreted some of what you said the wrong way. Still not sure exactly what you are trying to discover and indeed if it is a worthwhile experiment. Cant say I would be bothering with my sheep dogs. Most of em love a good game with me anyway. I certainly am not inclined to make it an unpleasant experience for them by making it less of a game. Why would I ? some of my dogs will tug regardless of how often I let them win, others would not find things so fun and probably become less enthusiastic to play with the toy, but none of it would have a bearing on their ability to work sheep.
> 
> I am still not sure what your reasoning is here when it comes to your dogs.


Sarah, I am a breeder. I breed working dogs for real jobs. They do very well in multiple venues for a reason. One is I never listened to the "professional breeders that said I can't breed this way or that. The whole time I did listen for the first few years, I basically had the same dogs they had. I went ahead and did what I thought was needed regardless of how much they squaked because everyone obviously thinks their way is the only way.....no different than here on the WDF. To really understand what is needed, the wheat has to be cut from the chaffe somehow. I have gleaned many interesting ideas from the WDF....but you have a lot of BS to sift through to get to the good stuff. People make the big mistake and assume I do this to prove them wrong.....they couldn't be more wrong. I do it to have better dogs in the end and I don't mind the time it takes to do it. I do it so I have a better understanding of what makes a good "multifunctional" dog. You know what assuming gets you anyway. As for listening to suggestions. I have.....listened to novices get fifty different answers for every relatively question asked......and they wonder why I don't take their advice as the holy grail. I don't care if they are wrong or right, but I do want to know one way or the other. Never could get into being a sheeple. I want to know....it is that simple. 

There is absolutely no reason in the world why any of what I am doing should bother these people as much as it does. It isn't like I asked them, or you, to do it.....but for some reason it does bother the hell out of them. Why?


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Personally, I would guess the bigger challenge of not making it easy will make the game more challenging to them and make it less of a game.


Huh? It's impossible to even keep up with your logic. You're not making the game challenging. You're making it boring and too easy ...in my opinion. It's still a game, just a boring game. And your pups look bored. Letting them win isn't a concern because it's not even a challenge.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sarah, I am a breeder. I breed working dogs for real jobs. They do very well in multiple venues for a reason. One is I never listened to the "professional breeders that said I can't breed this way or that. The whole time I did listen for the first few years, I basically had the same dogs they had. I went ahead and did what I thought was needed regardless of how much they squaked because everyone obviously thinks their way is the only way.....no different than here on the WDF. To really understand what is needed, the wheat has to be cut from the chaffe somehow. I have gleaned many interesting ideas from the WDF....but you have a lot of BS to sift through to get to the good stuff. People make the big mistake and assume I do this to prove them wrong.....they couldn't be more wrong. I do it to have better dogs in the end and I don't mind the time it takes to do it. I do it so I have a better understanding of what makes a good "multifunctional" dog. You know what assuming gets you anyway. As for listening to suggestions. I have.....listened to novices get fifty different answers for every relatively question asked......and they wonder why I don't take their advice as the holy grail. I don't care if they are wrong or right, but I do want to know one way or the other. Never could get into being a sheeple. I want to know....it is that simple.
> 
> There is absolutely no reason in the world why any of what I am doing should bother these people as much as it does. It isn't like I asked them, or you, to do it.....but for some reason it does bother the hell out of them. Why?


Don, most of the advice you have gotten on here is relative to protection dogs.........maybe because this is a working dog forum that 90% or more of us train some type of protection dog???? No one has offered any advice about hunting dogs to you. This all started when you so confidently stated that your dogs would protect you (which we obviously knew was crap but two good trainers went there to help you see and understand why the dogs wouldn't do what you said) Ever since then you have had some huge chip on your shoulder and have been saying that everything protection dog people do in the way of building drive and confidence is wrong.
You have hunting dogs, although I'm not sure how much they actually hunt, but regardless of that, you participate in an activity that dogs are naturally drawn to do, chase animals. Trust me there are far more dogs who will chase and fight animals in this world than those who will chase and fight humans.
In fact, I'd say every working dog would love to chase and kill animals if they were allowed to. 
So we as working dog breeders and trainers have to strive to produce and develop traits in dogs that are not natural in the dog's mind, to engage humans in combat, while you as a hunting dog breeder (allegedly) breed for traits that are much more natural in almost any dog.
I don't tell you that anything you are doing with your pups to make them hunting dogs is wrong, because I dont know enough about training hunting dogs to offer you any advice. It's too bad you can't be humble enough to admit that you know nothing about training protection dogs. But instead you want to tell us all that the practices used by working dog trainers around the world is wrong, even though those methods have been proven to work for thousands and thousands of dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed

Mike, it is apparently to much for you to understand that hunting is what "I" do with the dogs, others use them for just about anything they want to and they do well. They have to be trainable for most of what others do. I also plan on placing some pups with a few select folks for protection and a few for sport.....just none of you. No one here agrees on anything except that I am wrong. That is par for the course. I can ask what "sharp" is and get just about as many different answers as there are people answering......and I am supposed to accept advice....which of the fifty answers?......yet y'all say the terminology is so you can better communicate.....

You buy dogs that fit your needs....foreward aggression is what you need for much of what you broker dogs for. Forward aggression is not the norm any more than it is balanced, but, it is what is needed for what your dogs do. I don't want dogs that display it. Don't need it. There are few people in sport that would even have a real need for the dogs you need. Everyone here is worried about "crushing drives". I can't imaging working dogs that were that sensative. Peopole here used to talk alot about how much they learned from working a weak dog. They don't do it much anymore. Why am I hesitant to take anyones word on training? Should be obvious. Try and get your head around one concept Mike.....multifunctional.

So shed some light as to why what I am doing bothers you experts so much. By the way, I am not worried about my dogs protecting me. I am the one that has stopped them several times. One of the main reasons for my skeptisism if that most of you experts don't think dogs can tell the difference between real threats and mock scenarios. You don't think dogs protect naturally. Knowing that, it is hard to take much else seriously.


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## susan tuck

He either can't or won't grasp simple concepts. It's painfully evident someone is spoon feeding him really bad info, so just let him go on his misguided and merry way. It's like pounding your head against a brick wall. He doesn't want your help, so let it go.


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## Doug Zaga

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, it is apparently to much for you to understand that *hunting is what "I" do with the dogs*, others use them for just about anything they want to and they do well. They have to be trainable for most of what others do. I also plan on placing some pups with a few select folks for protection and a few for sport.....just none of you. No one here agrees on anything except that I am wrong. That is par for the course. I can ask what "sharp" is and get just about as many different answers as there are people answering......and I am supposed to accept advice....which of the fifty answers?......yet y'all say the terminology is so you can better communicate.....
> 
> You buy dogs that fit your needs....foreward aggression is what you need for much of what you broker dogs for. Forward aggression is not the norm any more than it is balanced, but, it is what is needed for what your dogs do. I don't want dogs that display it. Don't need it. There are few people in sport that would even have a real need for the dogs you need. Everyone here is worried about "crushing drives". I can't imaging working dogs that were that sensative. Peopole here used to talk alot about how much they learned from working a weak dog. They don't do it much anymore. Why am I hesitant to take anyones word on training? Should be obvious. Try and get your head around one concept Mike.....multifunctional.
> 
> So shed some light as to why what I am doing bothers you experts so much. By the way, I am not worried about my dogs protecting me. I am the one that has stopped them several times. One of the main reasons for my skeptisism if that most of you experts don't think *dogs can tell the difference between real threats and mock scenarios.* You don't think dogs protect naturally. Knowing that, it is hard to take much else seriously.


Don...show us your dogs hunting!! You have become good playing with your new video recorder so get some video. Seriously, I would like to see your dogs working according your breeding standards.

Don, you could have had your dome knocked in and the dogs would have done the same thing...run from the threat!


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## susan tuck

Doug Zaga said:


> Don...show us your dogs hunting!! You have become good playing with your new video recorder so get some video. Seriously, I would like to see your dogs working according your breeding standards.
> 
> Don, you could have had your dome knocked in and the dogs would have done the same thing...run from the threat!


That would be such a wonderful change, Don. Why don't you concentrate on what you know? Ever snce your dogs got chased you've been taking your dissapointment out on WDF. Mike is so right, you have a gigantic and tiresome chip on your shoulder. 

It's enough all ready, move on. Show us some video of your dogs hunting, I'm sure everyone would enjoy it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm one of the ones who believes a dog can tell the difference between a mock scenario and a real threat and will naturally protect without training. Which is why I wouldn't set them up for a mock scenario to prove that. One of the things that is ignored in all this is for the dog that can discern a real threat, what does he do when he thinks its a game? Usually, he does nothing. He certainly doesn't run. What happened in those videos isn't a situation where a dog didn't see a threat. To the contrary, they saw a threat to themselves and they chose flight. My guess is that they have had the experience of the pissed off human before and part of that experience is that the best thing to do with a pissed off human is to get the hell out of dodge. 

For Ariel, Don can't give. He can't walk away and say he was wrong regarding how he assessed his dogs. He can't say okay, someone demonstrate how I should activate the pole. He'd rather say he had no intention of using it correctly anyway to show what would happen if he did it wrong. Before I decided to play tug with mine, I spent a couple of months watching a schutzhund training helper. I can respect that there is the best way to do it and the ineffective way. Who sets out to do it wrongly or risk ruining a puppy to prove a forum point? Now he has this bizarre idea of seeing if he can ruin his puppies with what most people will would label as incorrect prey drive stimulation/building. But ruin them for what? Bite work? Hunting? Anyone that has dealt with dogs in the animal world will tell you that object drive is separate and completely irrelevant to that type of work. Protection trainers will concede that. So why discuss this test? Sara and I could care less if our herding dogs have object drive. No brainer and no revelation if these puppies grow up and hunt even though Don chose to wiggle a flirt pole around. Bite work--ruined? Not necessarily. If the object drive and possession is there genetically, good work will bring it out. I brought home a tug to a 10 year old GSD bitch that had worked stock all her life and she went nuts for it. It took very little for her to display possession behaviors. As has been stated, if its there, its there. Training through object drive is a newer concept. 25 years ago, that wasn't the focus. It's what's preferred now. I think its in GSDs because of Sch as a test but in the last 20 years the selection for it and breeding for the extreme seems to have multiplied exponentially. 

Now everyone do a kumbaya "yes Don you are are right about SOMETHING---object drive is irrelevant to hunting," and you won't have to figure out the ignore thread button. 

T


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## Lee H Sternberg

Did I hear KUMBAYA!:lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL. T, I have acknowledged the dogs didn't do what I said they would do many times. I also, much to everyones chagrin, said I didn't realize how unbelievable those scenarios were. I know you want to fantasize that this is all real.....but it isn't. This has nothing to do with anything of course...but you got to bring it up because you got nothing else. Now we got susan back(small s).....the real expert. You people can't agree on prey drive, when to start a pup, how to start a pup, whether or not backtying is good or anything else....but I am supposed to blindly accept your advice without testing a few things????? Sorry, it ain't going to happen. If I want to know what the dogs can do before I sell or place them, I want to know....and from listening in here, it is apparent that too many only got opinions that many others don't agree with. Y'all fall apart when I bring up Koehler also, which was before the big test T. Y'all fall apart over everything, yet, Koehler is still the soundest method I have used on these dogs....so fall apart. susan, how old is that dog your nursing along this time and how much money have you paid for a real trainer to tell you what to do???? But you think you are a trainer. You are. A trainer of your own dog....no more, no less. T has herding dogs....AKC herding dogs that she is sure can go out and get the job done with real stock. Gimme a break. LOL.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL. T, I have acknowledged the dogs didn't do what I said they would do many times. I also, much to everyones chagrin, said I didn't realize how unbelievable those scenarios were. I know you want to fantasize that this is all real.....but it isn't. This has nothing to do with anything of course...but you got to bring it up because you got nothing else. Now we got susan back(small s).....the real expert. You people can't agree on prey drive, when to start a pup, how to start a pup, whether or not backtying is good or anything else....but I am supposed to blindly accept your advice without testing a few things????? Sorry, it ain't going to happen. If I want to know what the dogs can do before I sell or place them, I want to know....and from listening in here, it is apparent that too many only got opinions that many others don't agree with. Y'all fall apart when I bring up Koehler also, which was before the big test T. Y'all fall apart over everything, yet, Koehler is still the soundest method I have used on these dogs....so fall apart. susan, how old is that dog your nursing along this time and how much money have you paid for a real trainer to tell you what to do???? But you think you are a trainer. You are. A trainer of your own dog....no more, no less. T has herding dogs....AKC herding dogs that she is sure can go out and get the job done with real stock. Gimme a break. LOL.


But you couldn't leave it at that. You have since struck out at people over the very scenario you set up and egged them into doing. You've put every spin on it possible and the biggest spin of all is that the testers and the protection people in general don't know what they are talking about and you shouldn't heed their advice because they don't necessarily agree about certain aspects of training. Most people would have just buried it and forgotten. At some point in any of our dog experiences, we've miscalculated. One thing about trialing, it will show you where the holes are. Trialing is a somewhat artificial scenario, just like you set up. You're the one that won't let it go. Oh and Don, once again you're venturing into a realm you know little if anything about--other people's training and/or working dog experience. Its the same ol, same ol--belittle, belittle and if nothing else, attack. Even I don't belittle the AKC herding trial dogs because if nothing else, it demonstrates the trainer's ability to train and the dog's ability to accept that training. Does it mean the dog has an ounce of stock sense or could do a real day's farm work---no. Kumbaya--we agree. I'm a little different from you. I'm not here to market--exchange of ideas and learning from people who do the same things I do and other things as well. In working my dogs, I utilize the same drives as protection people do--except object. Don, no one falls apart over Koehler. I guarantee you just about everyone on this forum that has any time in training dogs has been there done that. Unlike you, they don't mind trying different things if it will add to their training tool box or get them further faster. No one asked you to blindly follow. I'm still trying to figure out WHAT you are testing and for WHAT. You keep swinging to and fro on that. Now you indicate you want to see what your puppies will do before placing them. I think that's what people were trying to help you with. If you want to test prey/object drive, make it more prey like. And again, if they are hunting dogs and don't need object drive why test for object drive. But you're not content to say they are JUST hunting dogs. You want to market them as a dog for all things. So are you now selecting for object drive in that regard? Now, if it were me, would I want an Airedale displaying the same traits as a Malinois? No. If it were me, I wouldn't be posting pretty pictures on the forum of puppies hanging out on pillows. The only people interested in whether a dog will lay on a pillow all day are the pet/companion people. To a protection sports person, you just demonstrated a mentally dead dog. Now three years down the road if you showed that same pillow puppy with minimum [to them] flirt pole drive in a Sch trial---hey you might have something. He'll be pure gold if you can show him doing well beyond his club helper at a regional/national event. The people to consult would be the dale people that have trained and worked them in the other venues. Ed Weiss. Griff's sire's breeder/trainer. You've combined two lines. To really know if your dogs have it for the protection sport venue, you'd need someone to take it to a Sch III. And then, so you don't run into they are the happenstance exception to the rule, turn out a number of Sch 3s in your program. One thing dog people look for in production is not whether there was 1 that happen to be a therapy dog, retriever trial dog, personal hunting dog, etc. but whether there is a consistent number give the number of dogs bred/produced. Stop all that pillow training and send that little bitch puppy to Ed Weiss or someone that has dales and he and his group could probably tell you if she has the nose, trainability, nerve/confidence and object drive for protection sport training. And here's a thought, do what the rest of us do who want to learn about a new venue--participate instead of lashing out with the insults. You could take that little bitch puppy and join a local club. Train the Sch tracking and obedience for a start. Some clubs are pretty gracious. I worked Khaiba with RWDC in all phases to learn their Sch training while I was shopping for the real prospect. Nor does it have to be Sch. If there is a local ring club, go hang out. Happy hunting.

T


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## mike suttle

susan tuck said:


> He either can't or won't grasp simple concepts. It's painfully evident someone is spoon feeding him really bad info, so just let him go on his misguided and merry way. It's like pounding your head against a brick wall. He doesn't want your help, so let it go.


But it's just so much fun!


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## Doug Zaga

Don does not spin it...he SLINGS IT! :grin:

Don..I am serious about seeing your dogs work the hunt within their drives..put the dam flirt pole and bed away and let your dogs do what they are bred to do...


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## Don Turnipseed

T, don't give me that shit. Anyone can go through post after post and see that you people never agree on anything. Nothing at all, but, you expect a person to assume you know what you are talking about???? Tough to do, let me tell you., when you get all the experts having totally different reponses to a question that is even simple to me. Your always busting Sarahs chops because you do AKC herding. She does it in the real world T. Get over it. Games are games. I have not one thing against sport work. Bought a German pup titled up the wazzoo on both sides for bitework with the intent of getting some dogs into it....and I will trust me....but I am going to have to see more for myself. Mike can expound all he wants about "these methods have been proven for countless,yadda ,yadda yadda. Makes no difference! No one here agrees on anything, even those same methods he is talking about. It is that simple. Judging from your last post I guess I pointed out something you don't like to hear, but it is true. People looking for dogs to actually work stock don't go to AKC events to find them. There is a very good reason why they don't. It ain't real darlin and the dogs aren't the real deal. No one, including me, is putting you down for wanting to believe your the real deal even though it really isn't....at least you are doing something with your dogs. Just don't keep trying to blow smoke up my ass, been around too long not to recognize it. I hate to be brutal, but it is the honest truth and I didn't ask for your opinion on what I do, but you offered it and now you have mine.


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## susan tuck

hahaha Don, say hi to Jeffie for me. It's evident he's the one feeding you the bad info, his stamp is all over this, with him 2+2 = 5, he is the king of miscalculations. Really funny because as wrong as he is about what he thinks he knows about me or anyone else on this forum, and about training in general, you somehow manage to screw it up even worse. Here's a clue Don, the guy who's shit you think doesn't stink has titled ONE dog to a MR2 title in his LIFE - that's it. The thing is you're so easy for him to bullshit because you have even less of a clue than he does. 

I train all my dogs, Don, no one else does. Seriously, you need to find a better source for your information because Jeff's just doing a good job of making you look like an even bigger jackass than you normally are. I have a coach, he coaches me and helps me train my dogs. The thing is no one in my sport does it alone, you would know this if you weren't so busy talking out of Jeff's ass.

Don say what you want, I only tried to get you to see some logic, to stick to a topic you know, but obviously logic isn't your strong suit, you just can't get it through your thick head. Stick to hunting dogs, or stick to saying you know about hunting dogs, either way, you couldn't possibly miss as much as you are on the topic of protection dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed

susan tuck said:


> hahaha Don, say hi to Jeffie for me. It's evident he's the one feeding you the bad info, his stamp is all over this, with him 2+2 = 5, he is the king of miscalculations. Really funny because as wrong as he is about what he thinks he knows about me or anyone else on this forum, and about training in general, you somehow manage to screw it up even worse. Here's a clue Don, the guy who's shit you think doesn't stink has titled ONE dog to a MR2 title in his LIFE - that's it. The thing is you're so easy for him to bullshit because you have even less of a clue than he does.
> 
> I train all my dogs, Don, no one else does. Seriously, you need to find a better source for your information because Jeff's just doing a good job of making you look really stupid.
> 
> 
> Don say what you want, I only tried to get you to see some logic, to stick to a topic you know, but obviously logic isn't your strong suit, you just can't get it through your thick head. Stick to hunting dogs, or stick to saying you know about hunting dogs, either way, you couldn't possibly miss as much as you are on the topic of protection dogs.


You better get another drink susan because I don't even know what you are talking about. How old is that great dog your nursing along susan? What has it cost you for a real club trainer to tell you what to do?


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## susan tuck

nevermind, he's just not worth the trouble.


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## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> You better get another drink susan because I don't even know what you are talking about. How old is that great dog your nursing along susan? What has it cost you for a real club trainer to tell you what to do?


Obviously you must be drinking Don if you think you have anyone here fooled. and now you have proven you're nothing but a liar to boot. Go back and read. I answered the question about who trains my dogs - I do, always have always will. What's a "club trainer" Don? I think Jeff has confused you. Go back and ask him for clarification.

Which dog Don? I have 4 GSDs right now so which one did Jeff tell you to ask me about?

And what do my dogs have to do with this anyway? You're the one who makes great claims you can't back up, not me. You are the one who holds yourself out as better than anyone else here, but can't back that up either. You're the one who puts words in people's mouths and makes statements about what other people have said that isn't true. You're the one who makes up bullshit generalizations about the members of this forum to try to justify your disgusting, childish, belligerent behaviour, not me.

You have serious issues. I really feel sorry for you. You're such a miserable old coot. It's as if you want the world to be as unhappy as you obviously must be.


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## susan tuck

Now Don go ahead, keep repeating all the stupid shit you spew on this board like a broken record, just asyou have been doing for months now. There must be ONE person somewhere who hasn't heard your tired excuses as to why your dogs turned tail and ran, and who will find your pseudo disdain and your massive chip impressive. 

Seriously, can't you think of a better way to get a little attention?


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## Ariel Peldunas

mike suttle said:


> But it's just so much fun!


Oops! That was me that posted that. Guess I need to make sure and check who is logged in next time. Sorry!


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Try and get your head around one concept Mike.....multifunctional.


:lol:

I'm not going to steal Mike's thunder because I'm sure he'll have plenty to say to educate you once he's done taking care of the dogs for the night ...but, what exactly do you know about the dogs Mike sells and trains, Don? Are you really that naive that you believe your dogs are really more "multifunctional" than the dogs that Mike sells? Heck, my "single function" Malinois is capable of more than all of your dogs combined and she's not as much dog as most of the ones I have seen here. You really should get your facts straight before you call people out.


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## Chad Sloan

Until he figures out how to train one maybe it would be best if he just used other people's protection dogs for protection.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Try and get your head around one concept Mike.....multifunctional.
> 
> So shed some light as to why what I am doing bothers you experts so much. By the way, I am not worried about my dogs protecting me. I am the one that has stopped them several times. One of the main reasons for my skeptisism if that most of you experts don't think dogs can tell the difference between real threats and mock scenarios. You don't think dogs protect naturally. Knowing that, it is hard to take much else seriously.


I think I have a basic understanding of what a multifunctional dog is Don. There are dogs from my own breedings working in USAR, working for US Customs, for Border Patrol, for countless police departments both as single and dual purpose dogs, in Ring Sport, SchH, PSA, Personal protection dogs, working for the FBI, the ATF, the Secret Service, DOD, Tier 1 and Tier 2 Special forces groups, as well as Allied SF groups, I have dogs from our breeding program working for the Governments of Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Puerto Rico, Trinidad, Columbia, and in the Bahamas. I have dogs doing dock diving, agility, and competition obedience, and I also have a few who serve only as loyal pets and companians.

As far as your comment about you having to stop your dogs from protecting you, well, I just dont believe that, but I would be more than happy to come visit you and we can test your theory about that, no game, no equipment, just me, you, and your dogs.
Let me know if this is something you'd be interested in and I will be glad to do it.


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## Doug Zaga

mike suttle said:


> I think I have a basic understanding of what a multifunctional dog is Don. There are dogs from my own breedings working in USAR, working for US Customs, for Border Patrol, for countless police departments both as single and dual purpose dogs, in Ring Sport, SchH, PSA, Personal protection dogs, working for the FBI, the ATF, the Secret Service, DOD, Tier 1 and Tier 2 Special forces groups, as well as Allied SF groups, I have dogs from our breeding program working for the Governments of Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Puerto Rico, Trinidad, Columbia, and in the Bahamas. I have dogs doing dock diving, agility, and competition obedience, and I also have a few who serve only as loyal pets and companians.
> 
> As far as your comment about you having to stop your dogs from protecting you, well, I just dont believe that, but I would be more than happy to come visit you and we can test your theory about that, no game, no equipment, just me, you, and your dogs.
> Let me know if this is something you'd be interested in and I will be glad to do it.


Yeah...BUTT!!! Don breeds hunting dogs and they really do hunt! :razz:


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## julie allen

Mike, do you have any duck dogs? Lol I really don't like labs


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## Don Turnipseed

mike suttle said:


> I think I have a basic understanding of what a multifunctional dog is Don. There are dogs from my own breedings working in USAR, working for US Customs, for Border Patrol, for countless police departments both as single and dual purpose dogs, in Ring Sport, SchH, PSA, Personal protection dogs, working for the FBI, the ATF, the Secret Service, DOD, Tier 1 and Tier 2 Special forces groups, as well as Allied SF groups, I have dogs from our breeding program working for the Governments of Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Puerto Rico, Trinidad, Columbia, and in the Bahamas. I have dogs doing dock diving, agility, and competition obedience, and I also have a few who serve only as loyal pets and companians.
> 
> As far as your comment about you having to stop your dogs from protecting you, well, I just dont believe that, but I would be more than happy to come visit you and we can test your theory about that, no game, no equipment, just me, you, and your dogs.
> Let me know if this is something you'd be interested in and I will be glad to do it.


I believe you may have dock diving dogs from your own breedings. Like you, I don't believe the rest of it.

Ariel knows where I am. Don't don't use my dogs for protection for internet warriors.


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## Doug Zaga

Don are you using medical marijuana?


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> I believe you may have dock diving dogs from your own breedings. Like you, I don't believe the rest of it.
> 
> Ariel knows where I am. Don't don't use my dogs for protection for internet warriors.


LOL, now this post actually made me laugh out loud. As for your first sentence, believe it or not, it's true. Not bragging, but I am proud to say that i have dogs from our breedings in all of those areas.

As for your second sentence......is this an invitation? If so I will buy a ticket for mid March time frame, but I want to make sure you know that I wont be as kind as Dave was. I will chase your dogs all the way off of your property.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> T, don't give me that shit. Anyone can go through post after post and see that you people never agree on anything. Nothing at all, but, you expect a person to assume you know what you are talking about???? Tough to do, let me tell you., when you get all the experts having totally different reponses to a question that is even simple to me. Your always busting Sarahs chops because you do AKC herding. She does it in the real world T. Get over it. Games are games. I have not one thing against sport work. Bought a German pup titled up the wazzoo on both sides for bitework with the intent of getting some dogs into it....and I will trust me....but I am going to have to see more for myself. Mike can expound all he wants about "these methods have been proven for countless,yadda ,yadda yadda. Makes no difference! No one here agrees on anything, even those same methods he is talking about. It is that simple. Judging from your last post I guess I pointed out something you don't like to hear, but it is true. People looking for dogs to actually work stock don't go to AKC events to find them. There is a very good reason why they don't. It ain't real darlin and the dogs aren't the real deal. No one, including me, is putting you down for wanting to believe your the real deal even though it really isn't....at least you are doing something with your dogs. Just don't keep trying to blow smoke up my ass, been around too long not to recognize it. I hate to be brutal, but it is the honest truth and I didn't ask for your opinion on what I do, but you offered it and now you have mine.


There you go again with that real world vs. trialing stuff---keep assuming. As for the chop busting, only you would see it that way and Sara's world isn't any more real than mine other than she may deal with larger tracts of land. Ahhhhhh, so you are going to make an attempt at the bite work world. Of course people who work stock don't go to AKC events to find them. I wouldn't either. I keep telling you that you are preaching to the choir on that one. Trialing and training for what it is, I wouldn't recommend that anyone go to a trial to look for the working farm dog. Apples and oranges. Don, the AKC Rep herself will tell you that I don't believe the program is conducive to producing working farm dogs. As I've said before, you and I can have a kumbaya moment on the real-ness of AKC trialing and its relevancy to a daily working farm dog. As for your opinion on AKC, I don't find that brutal in the least little bit. Its quite astute of you. I guess you would also agree that those national specialty field trial trophies don't mean diddly regarding whether your dogs have real world ability to hunt and you just did it to say, yes, a High Country dog can. There are a number of people who have the same opinion of trialing programs. Pay attention to what the LE folks say about relevance to protection trials for what they need on the street. One of the things that's interesting is that if you criticize something, one of the first counters will be that the reason why you criticize it is because you can't do it. Soooooo, instead of just saying you know what, AKC is a game for the less keen, more amenable to position training type of dog, I decided to TRAIN IT, my way. I wasn't willing to trade in my power mongers for the low pressure type. Because I started with learning farm work, I was rather attached to the type that was good with a cow/calf pair, ewes with lambs, rams and most importantly intervening and saving my a** when it turned ugly. It is kinda funny, the shocked looks I got when I showed up at the first advanced handlers meeting. They don't expect it. I'm the one that says selecting for light fright trial sheep is not conducive to maintaining individual breed traits and differences and will just give way to the generic low/zero pressure trial dog. Right now I'm in the process of testing and starting a dog for a local farmer who isn't a trialist. He has pretty tough ewes and he needs a dog that can handle them. So far he's had two that couldn't. My job is to make sure the dog will have enough power, tenacity and directability to be useful in the FARM capacity. He's watched my dogs work his stock on his property. He didn't see them at an AKC trial because he'd never been to one. He runs commercial and show stock so he's certainly not looking for a rodeo. The work I do with his dog is more about keeping him safe from getting mauled at feeding time and handling the rams than any trial concept, AKC or otherwise. He likes what training flanks, stops, walk-ups adds to efficiency. He's trained his share of competition UDs and tracking dogs so he doesn't need me to train obedience. So, while we are having that kumbaya moment of agreement, realize that AKC trialing is the least of what I've done in herding and the least of what I like to do. I've done it on a very small scale to say, yes my breeds and types of dogs can do it. Furthermore, my objections regarding the program have nothing to do with my ability to train it. There are quite a few of us that feel this way. According to the AKC Rep, a ranch trial program has been completed. It'll be interesting to see what she comes up with. While you're looking at expanding your venues for your dogs, take a look at the American Herding Breeds Association [AHBA]. That's the program that I think is more conducive to working farm dogs and certainly what mine are better suited for. 

Now as forthe don't agree, there's more commonality of thought regarding certain concepts than what you indicate. The differences are explained by what venues and individual preferences people have here. There's more than one way to skin a cat. I don't think a Malinois or Dutchie has to be the standard for protection any more than the BC is the standard for herding. The trick is to be able to isolate and utilize what you think will be helpful for your dog and file away the rest. Everyone has their personal taste in dogs based on the type of work they do and how they train. No one has said it has to be done only one way. One thing about it though, even with all your slings, the people that have posted on this thread would rather see you succeed then fail. Regardless of your slinging, they would still try to offer you advice that in their minds would enable you to succeed and probably more importantly--the dog to succeed. But you can't see that. You just aim and shoot. But again, you put a dog out in the protection arena an title it, we'll all join hands and sing.

T


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## Anna Kasho

Will there be video? :-\" LOL


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## Jackie Lockard

mike suttle said:


> As for your second sentence......is this an invitation? If so I will buy a ticket for mid March time frame, but I want to make sure you know that I wont be as kind as Dave was. I will chase your dogs all the way off of your property.


Maybe since he's so interested in testing (and, of course, belittling) he should come out to LH and see how multifunctional your dogs are for himself. :-k:-k:grin::-\"

Oh, and if you don't have someone I'll probably be available to drive down and video the encounter.


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## mike suttle

Jackie Lockard said:


> Maybe since he's so interested in testing (and, of course, belittling) he should come out to LH and see how multifunctional your dogs are for himself. :-k:-k:grin::-\"


 I would pay for his ticket if he agreed to test one of my dogs the way I plan to test his.........no game, no equipment, just a real threat.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well damn, if you all are going to do another round of testing, I'd love to see that little bitch puppy on stock. Actually, I think she's kinda cute which for me means interesting enough to test. 


T


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## Chad Sloan

Ariel Peldunas said:


> :lol:
> 
> I'm not going to steal Mike's thunder because I'm sure he'll have plenty to say to educate you once he's done taking care of the dogs for the night ...but, what exactly do you know about the dogs Mike sells and trains, Don? Are you really that naive that you believe your dogs are really more "multifunctional" than the dogs that Mike sells? Heck, my "single function" Malinois is capable of more than all of your dogs combined and she's not as much dog as most of the ones I have seen here. You really should get your facts straight before you call people out.


Your type's not might hype.


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## Christopher Jones

Mike, I dont quite know why your bitting so much with Don. You know his dogs arnt as capable of dogsport or real police work as yours are, you know he doesnt know how to train a sportdog or police dog, regardless of what he says. And as far as hunting dogs go, I have seen more videos of your dogs hunting and taking on other animals than I have of Dons, and hunting dogs are his claim to fame.
All I have seen are photos of his puppies playing with little dead animals, looking at birds in a tree and taking a swim at the local pond. Im yet to be convinced his dogs hunt and catch any game.


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## maggie fraser

mike suttle said:


> I would pay for his ticket if he agreed to test one of my dogs the way I plan to test his.........no game, no equipment, just a real threat.


I'll throw in a fiver towards that bus ticket !


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## Don Turnipseed

mike suttle said:


> LOL, now this post actually made me laugh out loud. As for your first sentence, believe it or not, it's true. Not bragging, but I am proud to say that i have dogs from our breedings in all of those areas.
> 
> As for your second sentence......is this an invitation? If so I will buy a ticket for mid March time frame, but I want to make sure you know that I wont be as kind as Dave was. I will chase your dogs all the way off of your property.


Breeding dogs you bought from others that got years of work in them developing a line is as close as you get.

I have been doing some laughing myself there Mike. You have tried to come across as a tough guy several times lately. Your trying hard to impress someone. They say there is no fool like an old fool. Dogs been tested already Mike. You want to come for something else just suit yourself.

So, get back to it, what bothers you people so much as to how I work my dogs. You don't have to read any of this....but you can't help it can you. LOL By the way, they used flirt poles with bull dogs long before they were used the way y'all use them. The were used to exersize the dogs, not as a predictor of anything.

Jackie, you keep referring to belittling. You might not have noticed, but there is a lot of that and very little from me in comparison. Tit for tat. The only reason you even post is to do it.


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## Jackie Lockard

Don Turnipseed said:


> Breeding dogs you bought from others that got years of work in them developing a line is as close as you get.
> 
> I have been doing some laughing myself there Mike. You have tried to come across as a tough guy several times lately. Your trying hard to impress someone. They say there is no fool like an old fool. *Dogs been tested already Mike.* You want to come for something else just suit yourself.
> 
> So, get back to it, what bothers you people so much as to how I work my dogs. You don't have to read any of this....but you can't help it can you. LOL
> 
> Jackie, you keep referring to belittling. You might not have noticed, but there is a lot of that and very little from me in comparison. Tit for tat. The only reason you even post is to do it.



The only reason I post is to ask you questions that have never been answered by you. Here's another one...you keep saying that the scenario that happened between you and Dave was too fake to be a real test. Which is it? Were the dogs tested or not? If they were, what was the conclusion? Fight or flight?


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Breeding dogs you bought from others that got years of work in them developing a line is as close as you get.
> 
> I have been doing some laughing myself there Mike. You have tried to come across as a tough guy several times lately. Your trying hard to impress someone. They say there is no fool like an old fool. Dogs been tested already Mike. You want to come for something else just suit yourself.
> 
> So, get back to it, what bothers you people so much as to how I work my dogs. You don't have to read any of this....but you can't help it can you. LOL By the way, they used flirt poles with bull dogs long before they were used the way y'all use them. The were used to exersize the dogs, not as a predictor of anything.
> 
> Jackie, you keep referring to belittling. You might not have noticed, but there is a lot of that and very little from me in comparison. Tit for tat. The only reason you even post is to do it.


I'll tell you what bothers me about your posts ...

You don't offer any legitimate advice on anything. You have plenty to say about how protection dog trainers on the WDF are doing things all wrong. You say sport is ruining working dogs. You try to be demeaning and insulting to everyone you disagree with. Your best defense is a good offense. You produce little to support your beliefs about dogs. Your own dogs disprove your opinions, yet you continue to make ridiculous claims. Instead of sticking to a field you maybe know something about (hunting), you choose to flap your jaws about protection dog training and tell accomplished people in the field that you know more than them. You're arrogant and ignorant and you're trying to convince people who don't know any better that you know more than anyone else just because you're old and you have a bunch of inbred yard dogs that you make unsubstantiated claims about. You're living in Don's fantasy world. I'd have no problem with that except you are propagating incorrect information and I think it's important that anyone reading your nonsense hear another opinion from someone who has a lot more experience in the field. If you were talking about hunting, I'd never have another word to say.

So yes, Don. Your posts do bother me because you're completely clueless about most of what you're talking about and I think it's fair to make that evident. And I think anyone with half a brain can look at what you've done, what others who disagree with you have done and also look at the substance of your posts and realize you're just trying to disguise your lack of experience and understanding.


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## Edward Weiss

How about we get back to dogs doing stuff


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Breeding dogs you bought from others that got years of work in them developing a line is as close as you get.
> 
> I have been doing some laughing myself there Mike. You have tried to come across as a tough guy several times lately. Your trying hard to impress someone. They say there is no fool like an old fool. Dogs been tested already Mike. You want to come for something else just suit yourself.
> 
> So, get back to it, what bothers you people so much as to how I work my dogs. You don't have to read any of this....but you can't help it can you. LOL By the way, they used flirt poles with bull dogs long before they were used the way y'all use them. The were used to exersize the dogs, not as a predictor of anything.
> 
> Jackie, you keep referring to belittling. You might not have noticed, but there is a lot of that and very little from me in comparison. Tit for tat. The only reason you even post is to do it.


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## Doug Zaga

Don Turnipseed said:


> So, get back to it, what bothers you people so much as to how I work my dogs. You don't have to read any of this....but you can't help it can you. LOL By the way, they used flirt poles with bull dogs long before they were used the way y'all use them. The were used to exersize the dogs, not as a predictor of anything.
> 
> Jackie, you keep referring to belittling. You might not have noticed, but there is a lot of that and very little from me in comparison. Tit for tat. The only reason you even post is to do it.


Don, I don't think it bothers any of us as much as you talk a lot of crap, most of the time you contradict yourself but most importantly as a breeder you should be able to back up your kennel mission statement:

High Country Airedales is proud to dedicate this site to the preservation of the original instincts of the Airedale Terrier!

Our Airedales offer excellent conformation, gentle dispositions, companionship, intelligence, agility, speed, strength, and stamina, all combined with absolutely the best hunting instincts available.

If you are considering an Airedale Terrier, *please be aware that the breed is capable of being an avid hunter* and/or a wonderful companion for the whole family to love. Because we are committed to preserving the Airedale as a versatile hunting & family companion, some parts of this site will contain actual hunting photos.

If you are strictly looking for a family companion, please enter into the "Family Companions Site." Likewise, if you are interested in hunting with your Airedale, please enter into the "Hunting Companions Site."

We hope you enjoy your visit... 

...I have yet to see any of your dogs hunting. I would love to see them work the hunt but all I have ever heard was excuses or video of pet puppies being puppies! :-({|=

Let's face it Don you breed pet dogs...nothing wrong with that but be up front with it and stop bullshitting like your the best airedale breeder and you are saving the breed...sound more like an old guy lost in the past just looking for money... [-X


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Breeding dogs you bought from others that got years of work in them developing a line is as close as you get


 
You are half right about this Don, I absolutely do use bloodlines from other proven breeders in Europe, bloodlines that I have spent the last 12 years studying, traveling to Holland to see them first hand and testing them, trying to learn as much about them as I can. I have found several lines that I really like a lot, lines that consistantly produce the types of drive, health and character that I need in my program here. I have also found many more lines that I dont like for what we need here, so I have learned what lines not to use as well. I have a few very good friends in Holland who have helped me tremendously in learning about these lines as well.
I also keep offspring from our our breedings here to use for future breedings as long as they pass our very tough breeding selection tests. I know the lines I like, if I get a pup from our breeding here from those lines that works better than the rest of the dogs I have seen from those lines then I breed with it. If I find a better dog from those lines elsewhere and it wasn't bred here, then i will use it instead. You see DOn, for me what is important is breeding the best possible dogs I can breed from the lines that I know, understand, and like. 
I have no interested in keeping a kennel full of inbred dogs here just to pound my chest and tell everyone that every dog here for the past 20 years was bred by me. I try to be more open minded than that, if I see a better dog outside of my kennel that is proven then i use it. My goal is to keep improving the dogs born here so that I can better serve my clients.


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## Edward Weiss

Thought this is of interes.Dog is out of sport/working lines and is helluva a ranch dog. serious vermin predator.


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## mike suttle

Edward Weiss said:


> Thought this is of interes.Dog is out of sport/working lines and is helluva a ranch dog. serious vermin predator.


Looks like a very nice dog Ed.


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## Edward Weiss

Sorry for double post.Dog is named Rowdy and has "protection" work done by a defense oriented non sport trainer. Brought him out to Tom Rose club and worked in just prey. settled him down. still somewhat suspicious ,hard to tell but suspect it was from early work ,but great with kids


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## Thomas Barriano

Edward Weiss said:


> Sorry for double post.Dog is named Rowdy and has "protection" work done by a defense oriented non sport trainer. Brought him out to Tom Rose club and worked in just prey. settled him down. still somewhat suspicious ,hard to tell but suspect it was from early work ,but great with kids


Ed,

Rowdy is a nice looking Working dale. Do you have any pictures of him laying on the couch or playing with a dead squirrel ?


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## Stew Tardif

Edward Weiss said:


> Thought this is of interes.Dog is out of sport/working lines and is helluva a ranch dog. serious vermin predator.


That's Mac Ed. He is a half brother to Brisco and a half brother to Griff.

Some thoughts on this thread. Airedales do tend to mature slowly, but it does depend on the lines. 

Don - for the most part is stimulating his frontal lobe:evil:


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## Thomas Barriano

Stew Tardif said:


> Don - for the most part is stimulating his frontal lobe:evil:


I hear a frontal lobotomy is stimulating?


----------



## Edward Weiss

Ok Rowdy or Mack


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## Edward Weiss

Last Airedale porn....my boy


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## Don Turnipseed

Awww, just a couple more Ed. HC Curtis at 8 mo. with a more qualified trainer. LOL Long before any German blood was added.


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## Jackie Lockard

Don Turnipseed said:


> Awww, just a couple more Ed. HC Curtis at 8 mo. with a more qualified trainer.


Are they better because they never disagree with anyone and challenge old theory?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Edward Weiss said:


> Sorry for double post.Dog is named Rowdy and has "protection" work done by a defense oriented non sport trainer. Brought him out to Tom Rose club and worked in just prey. settled him down. still somewhat suspicious ,hard to tell but suspect it was from early work ,but great with kids


Will you be at the decoy seminar this weekend? Rowdy looks like a neat dog.

T


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## Edward Weiss

The fellow with the sleeve is Jeff Postle. He was 2010 VPG 1 champ. A good year for our club Dave Van G won VPG 3 same trial for DVG auSA team.
Yours truly took the pic.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Don this photo is the most telling of all the ones you posted. The old two finger grip method. Not advised for strong dogs.



Don Turnipseed said:


> Awww, just a couple more Ed. HC Curtis at 8 mo. with a more qualified trainer. LOL Long before any German blood was added.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Christopher Jones said:


> Don this photo is the most telling of all the ones you posted. The old two finger grip method. Not advised for strong dogs.


ha ha no kidding. That little 40 lber of mine somehow manages to get traction on concrete so that holding her firmly is a must. Bout the only time two fingers were ever used with her was when she rocketed up at me when I had my hand out and I somehow managed to jam my index and middle finger down her throat. :-$


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Christopher Jones said:


> Don this photo is the most telling of all the ones you posted. The old two finger grip method. Not advised for strong dogs.


Yes, that photo tells all Christopher. The dog isn't even released yet so maybe the handler knows the control he has on the pup. Would have been more telling to see if he changed the grip before the release in the other picture. Pup also has a full bite without training. Enjoy.


----------



## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes, that photo tells all Christopher. The dog isn't even released yet so maybe the handler knows the control he has on the pup. Would have been more telling to see if he changed the grip before the release in the other picture. Pup also has a full bite without training. Enjoy.


1. Yes I guess the handler feels he can control his pup with 2 fingers, but puppies aren't "released", at this stage, Don. They are to pull you into the helper. The line gives the pup confidence and also oppositional reflex comes into play, helping the pup feel stronger. Take a look at the subsequent photo where the pup is on the pillow - not "released". I would imagine if the helper saw the picture and noticed the way the handler was holding the lead he would have something to say about it, regardless of whether or not the pup was strong and motivated.

2. A grip is genetic, Don. You can't really train a full grip. Plus I don't know what else you think you would see on a pillow, let me see the pup when presented with a hard sleeve, on an open field engaging with the helper by himself, under pressure. Then you will know know whether or not your pup has a "full grip". Your pup may or may not have a full grip, only time will tell. As to whether or not the pup changes his grip, you must be joking???? The dog's not on a hard sleeve, and there is no pressure!!!!! Why would his grip change????


----------



## Don Turnipseed

susan tuck said:


> 1. Yes I guess the handler feels he can control his pup with 2 fingers, but puppies aren't "released", at this stage, Don. They are to pull you into the helper. The line gives the pup confidence and also oppositional reflex comes into play, helping the pup feel stronger. Take a look at the subsequent photo where the pup is on the pillow - not "released". I would imagine if the helper saw the picture and noticed the way the handler was holding the lead he would have something to say about it, regardless of whether or not the pup was strong and motivated.
> 
> 2. A grip is genetic, Don. You can't really train a full grip. Plus I don't know what else you think you would see on a pillow, let me see the pup when presented with a hard sleeve, on an open field engaging with the helper by himself, under pressure. Then you will know know whether or not your pup has a "full grip". Your pup may or may not have a full grip, only time will tell. *As to whether or not the pup changes his grip, you must be joking???? The dog's not on a hard sleeve, and there is no pressure!!!!! Why would his grip change????*


Susan, your the only one talking about the pup changing grips. I believe Christopher and myself were discussing the handlers grip.....as in....he may not be using two fingers when the second picture was taken because the dog is probably 70 to 80 lbs. I mentioned the pup having a full grip, but all my dogs have full grips. I know it is genetic.

Besides, the dog getting loose shouldn't be a major concern because it is only schutzhund.

What I put the pictures up for, was to point a few things out. One, this is the only dog of mine to ever have any training for bitework. Two, I picked the dog out being totally unfamiliar with bitework myself at the time. Picked the pup at 4 weeks, shipped him at 6 weeks. All this talk about picking pups being a real crap shoot is about as bogus as it gets. Finding a trainer that can actually train the dog they pick is the real crapshoot darlin.


----------



## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> Susan, your the only one talking about the pup changing grips. I believe Christopher and myself were discussing the handlers grip.....as in....he may not be using two fingers when the second picture was taken because the dog is probably 70 to 80 lbs. I mentioned the pup having a full grip, but all my dogs have full grips. I know it is genetic.
> 
> Besides, the dog getting loose shouldn't be a major concern because it is only schutzhund.
> 
> What I put the pictures up for, was to point a few things out. One, this is the only dog of mine to ever have any training for bitework. Two, I picked the dog out being totally unfamiliar with bitework myself at the time. Picked the pup at 4 weeks, shipped him at 6 weeks. All this talk about picking pups being a real crap shoot is about as bogus as it gets. Finding a trainer that can actually train the dog they pick is the real crapshoot darlin.


This just gets funnier and funnier. Sure all your dogs have full grips, just like all your dogs are natural protectors. 

You think a picture where a puppy is being fed a pillow is something special?? Iin the prior picture, the one taken right before the puppy is fed the pillow, the pup shows he's not even all that interested, hence the 2 finger hold by the handler, and sweat on the helper from having to work waaaaay too hard to get that pup to engage. 

Keeping hold of the lead has nothing to do with a dog getting loose, but of course I shouldn't have to tell you this because you think you know it all.

You're right about one thing, a good trainer can train a shitter, but who wants to? Hate to break it to you, but there won't be a lot of good trainers lining up to train any of your shitters - why would then when they have access to good dogs? No one wants to train with an anchor around their neck.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Susan, your the only one talking about the pup changing grips. I believe Christopher and myself were discussing the handlers grip.....as in....he may not be using two fingers when the second picture was taken because the dog is probably 70 to 80 lbs. I mentioned the pup having a full grip, but all my dogs have full grips. I know it is genetic.
> 
> Besides, the dog getting loose shouldn't be a major concern because it is only schutzhund.
> 
> What I put the pictures up for, was to point a few things out. One, this is the only dog of mine to ever have any training for bitework. Two, I picked the dog out being totally unfamiliar with bitework myself at the time. Picked the pup at 4 weeks, shipped him at 6 weeks. All this talk about picking pups being a real crap shoot is about as bogus as it gets. Finding a trainer that can actually train the dog they pick is the real crapshoot darlin.


 
If that's the only dog of yours to ever have any training in bitework, how can you possibly know that all your dogs have full grips? I know you'll probably say full grips on hogs or squirrels translates to full grips on people, but I know first hand that's not the case. A person in a suit is a lot more threatening to a dog who is used to working on animals. A dog can look great on a hog, but nerve out on a person. But, you wouldn't know because you have no experience working or training protection dogs.

And are you really trying to use those pictures to showcase your dogs' ability to be trained for protection work? First, anyone can make a dog look great in pictures. Second, those pictures don't show much of anything. A couple pictures of a puppy on a rag (which I thought you thought was ridiculous anyway) and then a couple pictures of an older puppy getting ready to bite a sleeve. According to you, the dog was taken out of training and became a service dog. We'll never know how well that dog could have done and what his nerves and grip would have been like on a man. You can't possibly know that until you do it.


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## Bob Scott

The absolutely hardest terriers I've ever owned were my two Borders. Dog and a bitch. Both no quit, deadly on critters. The 16 lb male had two adult raccoon kills in the ground but both dogs were so people soft you could crush them with your voice.
My JRT was pure baying dog in the ground. All the years I hunted him he never took a serious bite in the ground. Same dog my son had to pry off the quad muscle of one of his buddies that got to rough wrestling with my son. The dog just wouldn't let the kid go once he latched on.
The two just don't connect at all.


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## brad robert

Bob Scott said:


> The absolutely hardest terriers I've ever owned were my two Borders. Dog and a bitch. Both no quit, deadly on critters. The 16 lb male had two adult raccoon kills in the ground but both dogs were so people soft you could crush them with your voice.
> My JRT was pure baying dog in the ground. All the years I hunted him he never took a serious bite in the ground. Same dog my son had to pry off the quad muscle of one of his buddies that got to rough wrestling with my son. The dog just wouldn't let the kid go once he latched on.
> The two just don't connect at all.


And usually terriers are soft to people as a general rule.


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## Don Turnipseed

> And are you really trying to use those pictures to showcase your dogs' ability to be trained for protection work?


Only partially. That dog is 8 mo and had a lot of down time and two trainers. Both being students at the dog school in St. Louis. That pup also has zero dogs in bitework in his entire pedigree. He was simply bred to hunt. Considering that, the pups being purchased, for sport, have an entire history of bitework, any normal person would think it is more likely the methods or the trainers (or both) that are probably the weak link. There a a few people on the WDF that know this pup......one being the person that took the pictures.


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## Edward Weiss

It's been a long thread,but thought you might like to see a snippet of a Dutch(really German) Airedale at 9 months training for KNPV .Bor whose real name is Wilson is half brother to my own Kasbah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEb6sO7Evw

My understanding is that he is gone on to do well in the sport.

I don't know how Don's dog would have turned out if he continued training,but really never saw problems the times I saw him.


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## Christopher Jones

Edward Weiss said:


> It's been a long thread,but thought you might like to see a snippet of a Dutch(really German) Airedale at 9 months training for KNPV .Bor whose real name is Wilson is half brother to my own Kasbah.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEb6sO7Evw
> 
> My understanding is that he is gone on to do well in the sport.
> 
> I don't know how Don's dog would have turned out if he continued training,but really never saw problems the times I saw him.


So would you say the Dales you have worked and that Don has bred have the genetic working abilities as Malinois and Dutchies from working bloodlines?


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## Edward Weiss

Have to leave the genetics to the breeders.
By the numbers for straight working sport have to go with Mals.
Things are always changing , when I first got interested in sport work there was a reasonable contingent of Dobes,Rottiesdominance of GSDs,and a sprinkling of Bouvs....now pretty much nada.
In1921 the Germans defined the 7 "working " breeds,Gebrauchthunde...included GSDs,Giant Schnauzers,Boxers,Bouviers,Airedales, and the last the last which I forgot.
Lot of breeds fade in ability due to popularity.
In my view Airedales are generalists,they can do a lot of stuff.the German type has been line bred for sport with some real police service types used.
Personally I could find more birds faster with an English pointer,have a 4 mark retriever with a field Lab,and maybe get better scores with a Mal,but I don't.


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## Don Turnipseed

Christopher Jones said:


> So would you say the Dales you have worked and that Don has bred have the genetic working abilities as Malinois and Dutchies from working bloodlines?


 The dogs have simply been bred to get a job done and that job they get done regardless of how bad they are hurt. They have never been judged by how well they can take clatter stick hits.


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## Bob Scott

If they were on the list of 7 working dogs as defined by the Germans in 1921 they they absolutely were judged on stick work! If that's not the case then why do many of the very first pics of working police dogs have Dales in them?
As Ed said, "breeds fade in ability due to popularity". If you don't breed for a particular ability it will be reduced if not eliminated.
Most all of us realize that even training a dog in a bite sport will have little to no effect on how the dog will actually protect. Many will agree that even in the PPD types of training with most dogs it's not much more then a game to the dog. The dog has to have it in it's genetics. You can't just train for it. 
There is barrier aggression, possessiveness and many other behaviors that people mistake for true protection ability.


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## Edward Weiss

Couldn't remember the last of the original breeds and it was Hoawart!
Also surprise surprise Malanois has been added.,


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> If they were on the list of 7 working dogs as defined by the Germans in 1921 they they absolutely were judged on stick work! If that's not the case then why do many of the very first pics of working police dogs have Dales in them?
> As Ed said, "breeds fade in ability due to popularity". If you don't breed for a particular ability it will be reduced if not eliminated.
> Most all of us realize that even training a dog in a bite sport will have little to no effect on how the dog will actually protect. Many will agree that even in the PPD types of training with most dogs it's not much more then a game to the dog. The dog has to have it in it's genetics. You can't just train for it.
> There is barrier aggression, possessiveness and many other behaviors that people mistake for true protection ability.


Bob, my comment was in reference to my breeding only. Had nothing to do with how, or for what purpose, European dales were bred or used. Sorry for not being more clear. As breeding goes, with lines bred like mine, adding lines like Griffs could prove real interesing.


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## Bob Scott

"Hoawart"!
That's those sweet, golder retriever looking dogs with the killer attitude. I'd love to take one to a Golden specialty. :twisted: 
Probably not may good ones left.


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## Christopher Jones

Edward Weiss said:


> Have to leave the genetics to the breeders.
> By the numbers for straight working sport have to go with Mals.
> Things are always changing , when I first got interested in sport work there was a reasonable contingent of Dobes,Rottiesdominance of GSDs,and a sprinkling of Bouvs....now pretty much nada.
> In1921 the Germans defined the 7 "working " breeds,Gebrauchthunde...included GSDs,Giant Schnauzers,Boxers,Bouviers,Airedales, and the last the last which I forgot.
> Lot of breeds fade in ability due to popularity.
> In my view Airedales are generalists,they can do a lot of stuff.the German type has been line bred for sport with some real police service types used.
> Personally I could find more birds faster with an English pointer,have a 4 mark retriever with a field Lab,and maybe get better scores with a Mal,but I don't.


 So have you ever trialed one in IPO/SchH?


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## Peter Cavallaro

So Chris have you ever trialled any breed in IPO/Schutshund?


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## Christopher Jones

Peter Cavallaro said:


> So Chris have you ever trialled any breed in IPO/Schutshund?


 Nope.


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## Edward Weiss

Christopher Jones said:


> So have you ever trialed one in IPO/SchH?


Three dogs to Vpg titles
Two 3s one 1 an FH 1 and a Master retriever
One on DVG nationals
Also break 25 on skeet and shoot in high
80s in Sporting clays with a Guerini Summit and Hunt birds
with a Merkel 20.....how bout you Sport?


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## Don Turnipseed

The ol' foot goes in a lot easier than it comes out eh Christopher. LOL


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## Christopher Jones

So what do you think was the main difference between say a mali ans Dale? Drives, nerves?


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## Christopher Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> The ol' foot goes in a lot easier than it comes out eh Christopher. LOL


Was actually a sincere question Don, otherwise I wouldnt ask a question i dont already know the answer to.


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## Don Turnipseed

Not sure who you are asking Chris, but, it is mostly due to breeding IMHO. You may have surmised by now really top mals and shepards are continually brought over to the US and and the greatness doesn't last that long with American breeders. Other than that, they are simply two different kinds of dogs all together. One is sharp, the other isn't. One more willing to go along, the other questions everything. One has been bred to bite people much more intensly that the other. I don't think it is just one thing or the other. One big thing I have heard over and over from trainers is, that they learned more from training an airedale than they had ever learned from any other dog. Probably why they are not used as much as, say, mals, shepards, dutchies.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not sure who you are asking Chris, but, it is mostly due to breeding IMHO. You may have surmised by now really top mals and shepards are continually brought over to the US and and the greatness doesn't last that long with American breeders. Other than that, they are simply two different kinds of dogs all together. One is sharp, the other isn't. One more willing to go along, the other questions everything. One has been bred to bite people much more intensly that the other. I don't think it is just one thing or the other. One big thing I have heard over and over from trainers is, that they learned more from training an airedale than they had ever learned from any other dog. Probably why they are not used as much as, say, mals, shepards, dutchies.


And what are you basing all these generalizations on, Don ...your countless years of experience preparing a variety of breeds for protection work?

Could it be that Malinois, Dutch Shepherds and German Shepherds are used primarily because they are best suited for the work? If Airedales were better dogs for the task, albeit more difficult to train, I am sure they would be the chosen breed for the work. A challenge might be fun for someone with the time and patience. Heck, I sometimes think having an off breed to play around with would be fun. But if you want a dog to get the job done quickly and reliably, you use what works best. Period.


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## Guest

Ariel Peldunas said:


> And what are you basing all these generalizations on, Don ...your countless years of experience preparing a variety of breeds for protection work?
> 
> Could it be that Malinois, Dutch Shepherds and German Shepherds are used primarily because they are best suited for the work? If Airedales were better dogs for the task, albeit more difficult to train, I am sure they would be the chosen breed for the work. A challenge might be fun for someone with the time and patience. Heck, I sometimes think having an off breed to play around with would be fun. But if you want a dog to get the job done quickly and reliably, you use what works best. Period.


 

... what do you expect




(edited)


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## Connie Sutherland

Ariel Peldunas said:


> ... Could it be that Malinois, Dutch Shepherds and German Shepherds are used primarily because they are best suited for the work? .... if you want a dog to get the job done quickly and reliably, you use what works best. Period.



Of course. It would seem to be unnecessary even to state.

JMO!


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## Thomas Barriano

I learned more from my first Show line Dobermann Male, then from any of my working line Dobermann or other breed.
That sure don't mean he was even close to the best dog I trained.
You just don't learn a lot from dogs that catch on fast to what you want and have enough drive to forgive your mistakes


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## Don Turnipseed

Apparently I need to use the same translator you do Ariel. No where did I say one was best or anything else. Just some of the differences and why. One thing I did leave out is the dogs like mals and dutchies, that are specifically bred for bitework, make it possible, and easy, for people like yourself to be trainers. Without them where would you be?


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Apparently I need to use the same translator you do Ariel. No where did I say one was best or anything else. Just some of the differences and why. One thing I did leave out is the dogs like mals and dutchies, that are specifically bred for bitework, make it possible, and easy, for people like yourself to be trainers. Without them where would you be?


You have repeatedly stated that you are not a trainer, never trained a dog, read only a few pages of Koehler, and so on.

In other words, you have made it abundantly clear that your knowledge of and experience with the training that you make so many comments about is zilch.

Let's end the sarcastic and baiting comments about training and trainers.

Thank you.

BTW, this is from all the mods.


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