# Schutzhund



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

m a „pussy“ to quote Jeff Oehlsen but I’m happy to be one. I have a dog that has good grips in bitework,. He’s big, fearless when facing any helper and enjoys working for me. His heelwork lacks precision which is why I haven’t trialled him as yet. His tracking is dictated by a very strong drive which I think I have now under control.

I like Mondioring, so much that I think our younger dog, who Malinois handlers love, because of his Malinois behaviour, would be good at it. I know Mondioring helpers; we have the World champion Tom Andrykowski here in Switzerland.

To cut a long story short, whatever “others” say about Schutzhund, to trial a dog, to concentrate on a track and come out with high scores, whatever the conditions on the ground and in the air, have the same dog knock the hell out of a helper and, be concentrated and precise in the obedience section is no mean feat.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

i was too late to edit my post but would also like to say that at one time, over here, owners of dogs that didn't bite were told to try their luck at SAR competitions. What a joke! A SAR dog has to have good nerves too, stamina and endurance, especially if one wants to progress to the Swiss REDOG team and belong to the Disaster team sent out to distaster areas all over the world.

I don't have much interest in Agility, Obedience and other fun sport arts but I would never knock them.

Why can't dog sportlers be loyal to each other without the stupid skitting?????


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

In our area Minnesota to be specific with in a 60 mile radius of the Twin cities Minneapolis/St Paul we have 6 sport clubs 2 Ring 4 Schutzhund. Between the 6 clubs 3 of which spun from our Schutzhund club there really isn't allot of club/sport animosity that I am aware of. Individual differences yes but we all support each other attend each other's trial's events and seminars. Don't disrespect others methods or sport of choice. 
And only out of respect of my friend's here at home that also frequent this board that I haven't gone on the offensive with Jeff and fired back about Schutzhund vs mondio. 
Though I like to troll and play I really don't think it is in the better interest of our obscure little bite sport's to divide make animosity or spread hate between sports. 
I enjoy all 3 elements of Schutzhund I like the sport aspect and competitive side. I also believe in it as a being part of the gauge of a breed test.
Many scoff at it as sport and fake YAAAH no argument here. However if you take away all the flash points and are able to read, understand and look inside what the dog is exhibiting this is the biggest rush for me.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Most people feel that their particular sport is the best and others are inferior somehow, and some feel that others in the same sport as themselves are lacking in some way.

Then, most sport people look at people who are doing something entirely different as being inferior to them.

The PPD people, well that's a different group with their own ideas and if you don't understand then you're just living in the wrong area.

The people that are involved in Police work don't say much, cuz we're all inferior to them, like they say..Soldiers don't talk about it, they do it.

I've never understood why some will say things like " my dog isn't equipment fixated " when referring to a sport dog, shouldn't a sport dog be totally focused on this while doing sports ?

I dunno :lol: 

Confused in Calgary.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I do not care what sport you are in. If you are competetively training dogs....The majority of the rest of the world thinks your a dork.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've never understood why some will say things like " my dog isn't equipment fixated " when referring to a sport dog, shouldn't a sport dog be totally focused on this while doing sports ?
> 
> I dunno :lol:
> 
> Confused in Calgary.


gerry, while i'm a newbie to ALL "higher-level" training, i have seen Sch dogs that are NOT equipment-fixated monsters, ie, just b/c the dog has "won" the sleeve, doesn't mean s/he therefore ignores the helper after the sleeve is won. the good ones, IMO, get the sleeve, then immediately watch the helper again.

now in the interest strictly of "sport", a good sport dog while competing will focus on equipment. however, off the field, a good DOG, will not. a good, well-bred, well-trained GSD should be able to focus on equipment while on the field, and not, when not.

point is, an intelligent GSD (or any breed), knows when they're competing and knows when they're not. if i can't find a GSD smart enough to tell the dif, well, i either knew it going in or did a piss-poor job of researching the dog. JMO


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

ann freier said:


> gerry, while i'm a newbie to ALL "higher-level" training, i have seen Sch dogs that are NOT equipment-fixated monsters, ie, just b/c the dog has "won" the sleeve, doesn't mean s/he therefore ignores the helper after the sleeve is won. the good ones, IMO, get the sleeve, then immediately watch the helper again.
> 
> now in the interest strictly of "sport", a good sport dog while competing will focus on equipment. however, off the field, a good DOG, will not. a good, well-bred, well-trained GSD should be able to focus on equipment while on the field, and not, when not.
> 
> point is, an intelligent GSD (or any breed), knows when they're competing and knows when they're not. if i can't find a GSD smart enough to tell the dif, well, i either knew it going in or did a piss-poor job of researching the dog. JMO


What does a dog competing in Ring focus on ?? Isn't the prevailing attitude that Ring is more difficult for a dog than Schutzund ??


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Hi Gillian

The Swiss Mondioring team was very impressive at the world cup.
The dogs were spirited and correct. Many people commented that it was because they were from IPO roots. 
I hope you do try mondioring, it's fun and the way it changes you, your dog and the way you look at dog training, makes it all worth the extra work.

I'm not a dork. am I?8-[


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

ann freier said:


> gerry, while i'm a newbie to ALL "higher-level" training, i have seen Sch dogs that are NOT equipment-fixated monsters, ie, just b/c the dog has "won" the sleeve, doesn't mean s/he therefore ignores the helper after the sleeve is won. the good ones, IMO, get the sleeve, then immediately watch the helper again.


Only if they are trained to do so. After the slip I prefer the dog to bring the sleeve back to the helper and leave it up to the helper or my self weather to slip it back on or ignore the dog out him and begin again. 


ann freier said:


> now in the interest strictly of "sport", a good sport dog while competing will focus on equipment. however, off the field, a good DOG, will not. a good, well-bred, well-trained GSD should be able to focus on equipment while on the field, and not, when not.


 Not necessarily JMO a GOOD dog that is fixated on equipment that would be improper or bad training. 
Now maybe a weak dog allowed to fixate on equipment in the name of sport to get through the sport that is good training.
My dog had better be fighting for my life or his life if he bites someone off the field or he is dead. He has not been trained to bite off the field PERIOD!


ann freier said:


> point is, an intelligent GSD (or any breed), knows when they're competing and knows when they're not. if i can't find a GSD smart enough to tell the dif, well, i either knew it going in or did a piss-poor job of researching the dog. JMO


 100% agree


ann freier said:


> now in the interest strictly of "sport", a good sport dog while competing will focus on equipment. however, off the field, a good DOG, will not. a good, well-bred, well-trained GSD should be able to focus on equipment while on the field, and not, when not.


On a little side note about my dog he has never ever taken a dirty shot at any thing not offered to him. 
However without thinking twice about betting my dog and a months pay that my dog with certainty WILL bite who ever is in front of him on the field in the face, head, shoulder, arm, hand, nutz, thigh, leg ,foot, back, or ass no matter.
He is a Schutzhund dog so we use a sleeve :mrgreen:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think all these sports have there own challenges and purposes. 

Like ring....it really tests the nerve of the dog. No doubt it's tough.... But what I love about Schutzhund is the precision needed in tracking and OB. The challenge here I love is how can I get that precision with still having enough "dog" left to do protection?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol: Cmon Jeff! :roll: Ya got em chaising their tails again! :lol:

Folks, I like anything to do with dog training. I've done Schutzhund, SAR, AKC obedience, now starting herding,you name it with my older GSD. My younger GSD will follow suit!
I've trained, hunted, shown working terriers, taught ob classes, competed actively in ob, shown in AKC breed ring  :-D , etc. 
If there were a ring club anywhere near I'd be doing that also. 
I can't get excited/insulted/hurt when someone else dissagrees with what I do or how I do it. (especially when it's just to stir up discussion/shit) :lol: 
It's not about any particular sport. It's about having a great time with my dogs! 

............Well.........there is that dog dancing thing. Don't think I'm gonna make that one. :lol: 
I still wont knock it. I just don't think sequins are all that attractive on me. :lol:
They do a fantastic job of training though!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff's comments on Schutzhund don't interest me but what he says about pups and dogs does and makes a lot of sense. Getting him to do Schutzhund would be like asking Britney Spears to become a Nun most likely.

What makes me :-k are the opponents to the sport who've never achieved anything either in Schutzhund or anything else in dog sports for that matter.

Now dog dancing would interest me but with the size of dog I have it would look more like a rehash of The Lone Rider=D> =D>


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would say that your dorks, but that is because you take things way to seriously.JK

Mike, feel free to discuss whatever you like with me, and no need to feel like you will disrespect anyone. Just do not be suprised when your arguements get shut down. I can make fun of Sch with the best of them........well, I am pretty sure that am the best of them. (try the testing nerve in tracking one, I like that BS)

Having a good dog is having a good dog, just a shame that you are not trying Mondio. I like the GSD much better for the most part and a good one is getting to be a rarity.

When are you guys going to figure out that I am not, nor will I ever be PC ? ? ? ? ?

I absolutely hate people that do not speak their mind for whatever reason, or get all butthurt from a discussion.

Sch people screwed Sch people and made their sport weak. I have already heard various people talking about how people in Mondio need to have successes. **** that. People need to learn to put on their big boy pants and go out and hack away at learning how to get a dog where it needs to be and quit relying on some trainer, or training director to show them all the time. I spent way too much money, and had my dog totally act like he knew **** all about anything, and still learned an lot about what I will be doing with my next dog when I get that one. I love the sport, and the dog is just a tool that I use to play the game.

Dog people get more and more sensitive, and more and more have a need to control what cannot be controlled, and I would like to see a change there before anything else.

So there.=D> =D> =D> 

Mike feel free to go at it with me about Sch. I would enjoy hearing what you have to say about the hold and bark. Please do not tell me you are in the goofball camp that thinks a shaped exersize like that shows character. LOL We could start by having me shatter that joke of a thought process completely out. : )


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Bob, they never learn do they ??? LOL

Gillian, kinda funny how one can know so much, yet not achieve anything in a dog sport.........or did I ? ? ? ?](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 

Like the shit I know is just in a book somewhere. HA !


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I think any sport that is watered down to fit the feel good folks is wrong. Play in the venue that best suits you and your dog. Schutzhund was a breed "sport." No longer is it viewed that way by some. Herding folks have changed this game to make the "sport" fit non-farming applications in today's agri-world. You seldom see 500 acre farms lined with sheep and a dog doing a whipping out-run. Many are 5-10 plots and the dog only needs to move about and push.

Sporting dogs have gone to dock diving, cool looking but not safe for real water entry. The Lab can land on hidden objects and be dead before you can get packed for the vet. How many K-9 officers have the NEED to send there dog walking down a rung ladder? None that I have seen. These have been changes to activity "skills" as a "test" for a mark of excellence for that venue.

If you water down milk good enough, even the health freaks will tell you it's good for ya...Light Milk or Fitness Milk. When can we just have the real thing without *dumbed down* added?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I agree with Jeff and Howard.

Aside from many of the elitest attitudes, I really dislike the fact that you can take a total peice o'shinola dog and get it titled. What's worse is the ego people often get from titling a shit dog. 

Yes, Gillian, I'm one who has never titled a dog. But so what and why for? I don't need a title to satisfy my ego. I know my dog can be titled. I know he will bite, his OB is great and he's a tracking Mother ****er. If I were to breed my Rottweiler then yes, I can see the value of getting a title. Otherwise, I personally have nothing to prove. 

Another thing I dislike is how I feel castigated for teaching my dog to be serious and focus on the helper rather than the peice of equipment. Isn't that one of the things is supposed to test? I also dislike the my dog is better than you dog trip and worse yet is my dog is BRED better than your dog trip. WTF is with these people? My dog is MY dog and yours is yours. Sorry that you feel bad that your $8000 german import doesn't match up with my $300 BYB dog. Maybe you should learn some better dog training skills or learn how to pick puppies. LOL

What I love about my schutzhund experience is how ALL aspects of it have come in handy in real world situations. I've put my dog on a track in an 11 acre field to find my wife's house key. The OB is precise and deeply ingrained into the dog, he'll heel in real crowds at the mall and places like Lowes or Bass Proshop. I've made him retrieve several errently thrown balls over a fence, and my dog has come to my aid under a real threat and delivered a live bite without hesitation.

Would your schutzhund dog do that? Maybe but for every dog that can do it for real I could produce 20+ others schH3s that can't.

Of course, schutzhund is fun and for people new to a protection dog sport it's probably the best and easiest one to start with. I recently checked out a Mondio Club and I must say I had more fun that night than I ever did at any schH club. Maybe its because alot of them didn't have fancy SUVs or dedicated dog vehicles for their dogs, maybe they don't care as much about what you do for a living or how much you make... I dunno, maybe my schH club experience isn't what's "real" in other parts of the world but I've been to four different clubs where I live and in each an everyone people bring up $$$. show off their egos because they have a neutered American Dobbie that will bite and platz for 2 minutes. 

I had to quit a club because a club because my dog progressed farther and faster than the TD's Pink Papered German Rottie. This same bloke, a national schH helper, told me that PSA, Mondio, French Ring etc is for low life losers.

So does schH still have value for me? Absolutely. Now that I trully have a world-class dog I feel obligated to get to schH3 because barring unforseen issues, he will be bred sometime in his life. I will also being doing a form of Ring sport to challenge my training skills and to challenge to the dog for real.

Lastly, I know what I said about schH doesn't apply to all people and clubs, just most of the people that I have met.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_I don't need a title to satisfy my ego. I know my dog can be titled. I know he will bite, his OB is great and he's a tracking Mother ****er. If I were to breed my Rottweiler then yes, I can see the value of getting a title. Otherwise, I personally have nothing to prove._

Chris, I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences in Schuitzhund Clubs.

As for people titling their dogs just to satisfy their egos, I think you'll find that most people want to see if their training holds up in trial situations not only in Schutzhund but in Mondio, SAR competitions, Avalanche, REDOG sports, etc. Judges in all these sports often require the qualifications gained by trialling their own dogs to pass the Judging Test - it's not just a "titling" to breed.

I wasn't thinking of you in particular when I wrote my post - it was a general feeling that I had that I haven't experienced in Switzerland and Germany.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> _I don't need a title to satisfy my ego. I know my dog can be titled. I know he will bite, his OB is great and he's a tracking Mother ****er. If I were to breed my Rottweiler then yes, I can see the value of getting a title. Otherwise, I personally have nothing to prove._
> 
> Chris, I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences in Schuitzhund Clubs.
> 
> ...


I experienced a lot of "discrimination" because I have a rottweiler. Then I joined a rott only working group and it turned into my dog is better than yours. And your dog is shit because he's not a pink paper import.


I understand your point in trialing. For me the marker to see if the training holds up is in a real world situation. I think some of the differences are between those that are work from home types, who bring their dogs everywhere vs those that work a regular day job, train 1-2/wk and do only OB at the club.

It's constant "training" in my house, we generally practice the NILIF method.

btw- I totally get the rottweiler thing. MY rottie has been relatively easy for me to train but NOTHING like this little Mali pup I have. GEEZ! In less than a week, he's housebroken, he outs, sitz and he platzes. I'm sure the others have rubbed off on him but the long down has been a breeze because my three rotties do it and he just follows their lead.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I had to quit a club because a club because my dog progressed farther and faster than the TD's Pink Papered German Rottie. This same bloke, a national schH helper, told me that PSA, Mondio, French Ring etc is for low life losers.


I can think of only one person off hand that fits the criteria you mentioned...I'll probably talk to him sometime after he finishes working the USA Nationals or tomorrow sometime so I'll make sure I ask him his side...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I can think of only one person off hand that fits the criteria you mentioned...I'll probably talk to him sometime after he finishes working the USA Nationals or tomorrow sometime so I'll make sure I ask him his side...


BINGO!!! 

BTW- that's not my opinion a few people from his club told me that. You can also ask him why when I posted a video response of my my puupy to a youtube of my mali's sire why he deleted it? You'd think folks would want to see what kind of pups Kaden ot vitosha produces.

The person we speak of has done terrible things for the sport of schH. There is a local club that is putting on a trial later this month. Big xxxx called the schH judge that was scheduled and asked him to cancel because they're friends and he doesn't like that club.

He refused to work my dog at the club because I privately trained on off days with another person who happened to live four miles from my house. This national trial helper thought it was best to have a person with ZERO experience work my young rottie. WHOA:-o 

Anybody who knows dogs knows you won't get decent results when you have a inexperience helper on an inexperienced dog. 

So why when you're the TD of a club that only had FOUR dogs refuse to work all the dogs? Geez do you think it has anything to do with the fact that a USA schutzhund judge said he's "seen maybe five rottweilers like [mine]" a week before??

You can also ask him why nobody wants him in their club. He is the definition of an out of control schutzhund EGO.


PS: and when Mr. "I make $95000 per year" tells you that I took down his website it's because he owes me $300 AND at a time he knew I was unemployed.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

This is my view with ring sports with no disrespect. Every one is a rock star now in 10 o 15 years the elitists and egos will be emerging some already are. Nature will take its coarse and they will weed themselves out :mrgreen: new one's will step in there place.
Schutzhund was the same 25 years ago.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I forgot he was a member of this board....I trust he'll have no problem addressing you himself. 

He is one of the most ethical guys in the sport....he just doesn't put up with a lot of BS.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I forgot he was a member of this board....I trust he'll have no problem addressing you himself.
> 
> He is one of the most ethical guys in the sport....he just doesn't put up with a lot of BS.


i know him well. you're wrong!!! I'm the one that doesn't deal with BS.

I wonder what his answer is for all the folks leaving his club?


I wonder why he's holding Rxxxxx's equipment?? Especially after it's been requested from him several time. Trust me, he's not what you think. Ask any club in his town.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> :lol: Cmon Jeff! :roll: Ya got em chaising their tails again! :lol:
> 
> Folks, I like anything to do with dog training. I've done Schutzhund, SAR, AKC obedience, now starting herding,you name it with my older GSD. My younger GSD will follow suit!
> I've trained, hunted, shown working terriers, taught ob classes, competed actively in ob, shown in AKC breed ring  :-D , etc.
> ...


I'm with you Bob. I like dogs. I've enjoyed everything I've done and have made some very good friends. Part of the reason I enjoy Schutzhund is I like the people I train with and I'm glad I have the opportunity to spend the time with them.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I wonder why he's holding Rxxxxx's equipment?? Especially after it's been requested from him several time. Trust me, he's not what you think. Ask any club in his town.


This stuff belongs in PMs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Chris, I have been there with the "Rottie" thing. It sucks. I am always happy when a person gets a really nice dog of any kind, as I know what people have gone through with the junk that a breeder will sell to a "beginning" handler.

I was back home a few years back and I ran into one of the guys I used to train dogs with, and he is still pissed that I ran his dog one night in training after he told me I was too soft on his dog. This is more than 20 years ago for ****s sake, and the guy sounded like it was yesterday and I did it for funsies.

I hope that you stick with low life Mondio, as I think that it is a really good sport, and the great thing is that you are learning all the time how to do better with your next dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mike, since I know just about everyone in Mondio, I am not sure who you think is a rock star, but 25 years ago, or maybe a bit more, the original Sch org, NASA kinda blew up.

So the rock star thing causes explosions ? ? ? ? 

How many remember NASA ? ? ? ? ?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike, since I know just about everyone in Mondio, I am not sure who you think is a rock star, but 25 years ago, or maybe a bit more, the original Sch org, NASA kinda blew up.
> 
> So the rock star thing causes explosions ? ? ? ?
> 
> How many remember NASA ? ? ? ? ?


I use the reference "every one is a rock star" meaning pretty much every one is on the same level playing field the sport is relatively new here or at least its rising popularity is training tricks haven't been learned or discovered what works what doesn't. 
I watched the nationals this year at Midwest there was a nice handful of dogs and I had a good time. I noticed most of the decent teams are either refugees from Schutzhund or still participate in it don't know if that has any thing to any thing just a observation. 
The decoys were amazing and had no mercy they ran off a couple of shitters.
The level of the training most of the dogs were at I would call it high club or regional comparing it to Schutzhund.
It's sort of like being a football fan and watching soccer. 
Now for you I still haven't been able to find or figure out what your self proclaim to fame is other than being a dog board internet troll. 
What in your mind makes you so special


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Maybe someday we will train together and you can see what you think.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i would LOVE to get into a ringsport, but there's no one around here that i know of...it was my first choice when i got Brix, found out i could do USA Sch, a new DVG Sch club or AKC, ummm, "stuff". 

so, even though i couldn't do ringsport w/him, i tried as best i could to have him work thru weird distractions to get a bite. won't hurt for Sch either i don't think. would it?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No, not at all. Dogsports in general are so hard to do, many people just do whatever is close to them. It would be nice for people to be able to go to any club and work their dog in different disciplines, but that unfortunately is not reality. How do we change that ?????


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Jeff, you hit the nail on the head. I train schutzhund with one trainer, no club, only because that is what is close to me. I would love to learn some ring sport but is just not possible. Hell, people don't even know what schutzhund is where I live. If I told them I train Mondio or any ring sport, they would think it is some sort boxing or mma [-(


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How do we change that ?????


wash in hot water, maybe w/bleach to shrink the size of the country?  ??

but i agree, with no shrinkage, it would be ideal to be able to go to a club within distance and train Sch/Ring/SAR/whatever. that would be GREAT. the decoys/helpers might not think so though....but you might generate/have more of them too in a consolidated club. hmmmm. forget NJ jeff--come to Nebraska, we'll change the world from here


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just get the rules, and hack away at it like the rest of us. Bitework is bitework, and OB is OB.............at least in theory. With Buko's last performance, maybe I need a new theory. ](*,)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ahhh--but from what i understand, "bitework" ISN'T bitework and OB ISN'T OB--everything's relative and the rules are different.

but i agree with your basic premise of "bitework's bitework" and "OB is OB". bottome line basic requirements. 

and BTW, "tracking is tracking"


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

ann freier said:


> ahhh--but from what i understand, "bitework" ISN'T bitework and OB ISN'T OB--everything's relative and the rules are different.
> 
> but i agree with your basic premise of "bitework's bitework" and "OB is OB". bottome line basic requirements.
> 
> and BTW, "tracking is tracking"



I agree that bitework isn't bite work. When I was out at the mondio club they were all impressed with his accurate OB and the full grips my dog dished out...that's the schH foundation.

I on the other hand found myself feeling the schH ego trip that I complain about... I thought the OB was sloppy and many bite where shallow. But they had their ego trips too in chuckling about how my dog only targets the arm due to his schH foundation.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I agree that bitework isn't bite work. When I was out at the mondio club they were all impressed with his accurate OB and the full grips my dog dished out...that's the schH foundation.
> 
> I on the other hand found myself feeling the schH ego trip that I complain about... I thought the OB was sloppy and many bite where shallow. But they had their ego trips too in chuckling about how my dog only targets the arm due to his schH foundation.


and that brings up ANOTHER training question (we may want to start a new thread), but really, here's a question: if we had an "all-purpose" club, where we could cross-train the dogs, are they smart enough to tell the difference between a Sch trial and a ring trial?? bet they are... and i think it's been proven by individual dogs in the past, just don't ask me to list them. ask trish or lisa or someone...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

ann freier said:


> and that brings up ANOTHER training question (we may want to start a new thread), but really, here's a question: if we had an "all-purpose" club, where we could cross-train the dogs, are they smart enough to tell the difference between a Sch trial and a ring trial?? bet they are... and i think it's been proven by individual dogs in the past, just don't ask me to list them. ask trish or lisa or someone...


There were a couple former schHIII Malis at the club and I'm told they have no issues with one sport or the other BUT there is always a concern if a helper is wearing heavily padded scratch pants. I was told if they see a sleeve they bite the sleeve, if it's a suit they bite the suit.

With all the fun we had the other night on a suit my Rottie had no issues with biting a sleeve this afternoon during training.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2008)

> It would be nice for people to be able to go to any club and work their dog in different disciplines, but that unfortunately is not reality. How do we change that ?????


That's something I've been thinking about. Maybe the "club" (per se) model is just a little too rigid for this country. Too much space relative to too few people. Maybe people need to buy equipment and figure some of this crap out on their own and accept the fact that they'll be some ****ing up along the way. But that'll only work if these same people still get out and officially trial, so an objective standard is still kept in mind. I suppose that creates a somewhat blurry line between people really trying to understand this shit and the homegrown PPD hillbilly hootenannies...but, we don't have 35 hour work weeks, 6 weeks of vacation, and multiple venues within minutes of us here.Maybe the "need" for the "experienced helper" has to be tempered a little bit.It'd take initiative by indepenant, unaffiliated modular cells of like-minded people who're willing to screw up and look like assholes compared to those fortunate enough to live within a reasonable distance of the relative professionals.Just a thought.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris you speak well but I don't have the finger skills to get long winded! I feel your pain! Schutzhund SUCKS in my book. It might be okay for some but nothing I'll want to play with again. Once bite, twice...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Steven, I would LOVE to see that happen. I bust people out all the time spouting this or that, by asking them to explain what they are talking about, and they cannot, because they are parroting some trainer. Even worse, when their dog does not do an exersize correctly, they have to go back to that trainer, as he is the only one the dog does well on, and that kind of mentality makes me mental. If it was taught at all correctly, then it should work regardless, or else the dog is just reading his favorite decoy.

Besides, what fun is the journey, if someone takes it for you??????


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Besides, what fun is the journey, if someone takes it for you??????


hey, that's my saying


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We have regular protection workshops to which the clubs can send their young helpers and at which there are always protection instructors. Even so, the "very good helpers" are not numerous. Some helpers never really "feel it", however well they're instructed

I know one club who paid for a decoy to ome out to them once a month and check how they were working.

Some of our decoys work for an evening meal and free drinks and some take a small fee which is paid by the handlers participating and not the club itself.

Maybe there's a chance of you doing something like this. Going to seminars is one thing but having someone visit the group of handlers, even only once a month to check up on the dogs' progress could work.

Good luck!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What makes me :-k are the opponents to the sport who've never achieved anything either in Schutzhund or anything else in dog sports for that matter.


You hit the nail on the head, Gillian! Makes me :-k , but also makes me ](*,) People like Kadi and Lisa, who are serious competitors in multiple sports seem to do the least complaining about schutzhund. I wonder why? On the other hand, perhaps it is just easier to take what they say seriously, since they have actually "been there, done that"?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Cause they sell dogs to people that do those sports. DUUUUHHHHH.

Not sure I would call her a "serious" competitor either. : P


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Lisa Geller said:


> Hi Gillian
> 
> The Swiss Mondioring team was very impressive at the world cup.
> The dogs were spirited and correct. Many people commented that it was because they were from IPO roots.
> ...


:-# You a dork? Of course not Lisa.:lol: 

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> The decoys were amazing and had no mercy they ran off a couple of shitters.
> The level of the training most of the dogs were at I would call it high club or regional comparing it to Schutzhund.
> 
> Now for you I still haven't been able to find or figure out what your self proclaim to fame is other than being a dog board internet troll.
> What in your mind makes you so special


Hi Mike,

As a "refugee" from SchH (tracking actually) I have to say the level of "pressure" from the decoy at this year's USMRA Nat's was about double the level I have ever seen at even National level SchH work. Can't say as I have ever seen a SchH decoy smack a dog repeatedly in the face in the guarding:-k 

As far as club/regional level training are you referring to the precision of the OB and the control? I have finally come to grips with the act that there is just not enough time in the day to tighten the dog down to the level of precision I like to see in SchH when you are playing in the ringsports. The actual structure of the exercises is challenging enough. It is hard to ask for fast retrieves and straight fronts when the retrieve object is wiggling and dragging between the dog's feet. 

Add to that the fact that the number three dog at the USMRA Nat's just placed 5th in the MR World's and I think the level of training might have been just a little higher than "high club level."

Not that I think MR is the be all end all of dog sports. All the big four have their strengths and weaknesses and I think they all essentially test for the same thing with small aesthetic differences. The only caveat to that is that Schutzhund is only difficult if you train for the aesthetic. The structure of the exercises is simple unless you push for fast, correct and spirited OB and a powerful yet controlled picture in the protection.

We trial in FR in just over a week and I hear there may be a very challenging "bad boy" decoy so I may come back and change my mind about all sports being equal.

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I agree that bitework isn't bite work. When I was out at the mondio club they were all impressed with his accurate OB and the full grips my dog dished out...that's the schH foundation.
> 
> I on the other hand found myself feeling the schH ego trip that I complain about... I thought the OB was sloppy and many bite where shallow. But they had their ego trips too in chuckling about how my dog only targets the arm due to his schH foundation.


You will find sloppy OB and shallow grips at many a local SchH club as well. Our club is filled with dog's with big full grips but it is hard to fault the grips when the decoy is actively trying to keep the dog off of the bite with an accessory or stick. Same with FR esquives. All of the sports where the grip is judge have equipment/decoy work designed to maximize the dog's chances of getting a full grip.

Lisa


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> As a "refugee" from SchH (tracking actually) I have to say the level of "pressure" from the decoy at this year's USMRA Nat's was about double the level I have ever seen at even National level SchH work. Can't say as I have ever seen a SchH decoy smack a dog repeatedly in the face in the guarding:-k
> 
> ...


Well Lisa I will recant my club level comment I honestly don't know shit about Mondio hell I don't even know what the terms are to describe what you are doing  and after thinking about the length of time you are out there and the different exercises. 
I was comparing it to state of precision that Schutzhund has evolved into in the last 10yrs and comparing it to what Schutzhund looked like 15 yrs ago. 
A side from my ignorance about the sport I think have a 1/2 way decent grasp on the bite work and its rigours and I did see it as being much above par with most of the competitors. I see absolutely see nothing wrong with testing and going after the dogs at a Nationals. With Schutzhund it is easy to go after and apply the same picture/preasure to every dog pretty much the same way.
Mondio looks to me like its not scripted like Schutzhund. How the hell do you judge it evenly or test it fairly every bodys routine looks a little different.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Well Lisa I will recant my club level comment I honestly don't know shit about Mondio hell I don't even know what the terms are to describe what you are doing  and after thinking about the length of time you are out there and the different exercises.
> I was comparing it to state of precision that Schutzhund has evolved into in the last 10yrs and comparing it to what Schutzhund looked like 15 yrs ago.
> A side from my ignorance about the sport I think have a 1/2 way decent grasp on the bite work and its rigours and I did see it as being much above par with most of the competitors. I see absolutely see nothing wrong with testing and going after the dogs at a Nationals. With Schutzhund it is easy to go after and apply the same picture/preasure to every dog pretty much the same way.
> Mondio looks to me like its not scripted like Schutzhund. How the hell do you judge it evenly or test it fairly every bodys routine looks a little different.


Just pointing out that if your comment referred to the level of precision then it might not be a fair comment based on the nature of the MR obedience. In fact, on several occasions I have seen folks penalized for what I would consider dynamic heeling. Precise but forged in the eyes of Ringsport judges.

Lisa


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Forging is a pretty good description for the heeling in Schutzhund. I don't like the way it's gone in the last years. Even in the "obedience" of protection, some want the dog to look at them all the time - I'm just waiting to watch the decoy get away without the dog noticing it 

Here I much prefer the Mondio control.

I think I'll stay with Schutzhund for the moment. Helmut Raiser's new Club RSV 2000 is developing well from what I hear so maybe one day there will be change and the Leistungshunde will step to the fore.

As for "Schutzhund "sucks" - well "suck it and sock it"


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Gillian, When in a Schutzhund trial does a decoy try to escape from the dog while Heeling? There are only 3 transports with heeling. And 2 of them the dog is judged on attention to the decoy, and the other the decoy attacks the handler. 

There are very specific rules to where the dog needs to be in relation to the handler in Sch. Either the dog is not there or they are. Those rules have been in effect for over 5 years.


Schutzhund has gone professional. That's another plus. I think this is really going to spark great training. This will make the divide. No longer is a Sch3 title going to be the mark of a great dog. it will be a basic requirement of a dog. The great ones will be competeting for that prize money.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Lisa Maze said:


> In fact, on several occasions I have seen folks penalized for what I would consider dynamic heeling. Precise but forged in the eyes of Ringsport judges.


I was at a Sch seminar recently and it was interesting, the people giving the seminar were teaching the dogs to forge by Ring standards. If the dog was sitting in proper heel for Ring, they were telling the handlers to move the dog forwards 4-6 inches then reward them. Seems like a minor difference, but if the dog isn't exactly where it's taught to be, minor becomes major pretty fast when they are already "out of position".


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

5-6 of us at club have competed in AKC ob. Depending on the judge a couple of us have taken heavy hits because our dogs forge/crowd to much. Overall we've clobbered the AKC competitors.
The crowds always like watching us. The're used to perfect position with flat attitudes. 
I'll pass on the robot dogs for a dog that enjoys it's work anyday.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I just love these warm and fuzzy conversations! Makes me want to hear more!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Hi Mike,
> Add to that the fact that the number three dog at the USMRA Nat's just placed 5th in the MR World's and I think the level of training might have been just a little higher than "high club level."Lisa


I should have added this to my previous response. Lisa G's and her Mongoose did not win MSMRA Nationals however IMO they were the strongest team that showed and after it was over I shook her hand and congratulated her and told her just that. And it didn't come as no surprise to me they placed 5th in the worlds. She's a dedicated very hard working dog trainer and has a very nice dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Looks like we all agree that Mondio rules, and Sch drools.

5th??? Cool, last I heard she had gotten 6th. Always good to be climbing the ladder.

I heard that more than one American made an impression over there.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

As far as making Sch professional, it has been for years. Look at some of the crap that has won big trials ( at least when I last looked) and you will see this shit get worse.

Big money is in the show ring, and there are all kinds of abominations going on there.

When you watch dogsports from a slightly different angle, it is fun to watch people manuever themselves for a better position at the table. Going pro should make for some interesting ass kissing.

Maze, are you goingh to send me the papers for the dog you gave me, or not, I was just wondering. Be nice if you just answered your phone.](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Looks like we all agree that Mondio rules, and Sch drools.
> 
> 5th??? Cool, last I heard she had gotten 6th. Always good to be climbing the ladder.
> 
> I heard that more than one American made an impression over there.


Oh Jeff, always alluding to gossip...would love to hear the details on which of the other Americans will be remembered for what. I ran into many folks who remembered Feist fro Portugal and said they loved his performance and had taken his picture.

One of these days I will answer the phone and we can get together so I can give you Soda's papers. I have to dig them up however and I dread digging through the ever growing stack of papers.

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh Lisa, always assuming the worst. Several people were talking about the Americans and that they liked the job they were doing. You know I am not going to type that much all the time. Try to remember who your friends are.   

Soda PoP is a real pain in the ass now that she has done some bitework. I don't think I will be doing much of that until her OB gets bizarrely good. She likes to bite my leg now. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 


She did pick up some focus while we were there, and has stopped chasing blowing trash.....................so sad when they start growing up.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Gillian, When in a Schutzhund trial does a decoy try to escape from the dog while Heeling? There are only 3 transports with heeling. And 2 of them the dog is judged on attention to the decoy, and the other the decoy attacks the handler.
> 
> Sorry, I was thinking of the Rückentransport" and let my irony get the better of me. I know it says in the rules that the dog must show exact heeling but with attention on the decoy. We had this discussion on a German forum a while back and there are some who say the heeling in C should be as exact as in B (i.e. with the dog looking up to you all the time).


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think you are right there. All heeling in Sch should be exactly the same for both phases.

It should be mandatory, and made a harsh point deduction. That way, when a dog with some sort of balls goes out and ignores that and stares at the decoy anyway, we can recognize a little something something in the dog.

So much for reality, if I am transporting a bad guy, I want the dog paying attention to him as well.

This is why people like me do not see many dogs that could do Mondio, or FR. This is why I do not like the sport anymore, as people want stuffed toys out on the field moving about, and are willing to speak up to get their BS dogs more points with crap like this.

Where are all the people that have good strong dogs? ? ? ? Why are they not speaking up ? ? ? ?

I am curious, when they get rid of the courage test, will the US follow along? ? ? ? Just a matter of time before it will happen.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Instead of "dogs" that can do Mondio or, I meant to say GSD. For some reason when I went to edit, it wanted to delete.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_Where are all the people that have good strong dogs? ? ? ? Why are they not speaking up ? ? ? ?_

They're frightened of you 8-[ 8-[ 8-[ 

Seriously, what one person calls a strong dog, another says it's a softie.

If I tell you that my dog has been described as a stong dpg and at 9 months at his first bite exercises lashed into the helper, his breeder, would you believe me? No, you probably wouldn't. This breeder, a German, visited the Anti-Terrorist Unit at the Bavarian Police Dog School to see what type of dogs they required. Whilst talking to a handler, he said "where's your thumb?" and the handler said "in his stomach - pointing to the dog".

Despite this, my dog is very "clean" otherwise maybe I would not be able to handle him (from size). 

On the one hand, he's too much dog, physically, for me. At 45 kilos and 65 cm shoulder height, his jumping up with all 4 feet in the air after we finish exercising (or in between, if I'm not "on the ball", could lose me an eye. 

One thing for sure, I never have to "set him up" for bite elements - it's a case of making sure he stays at my side before I give him the command to go.

Sami Chlaus is bringing me a camcorder for Christmas so maybe I'll get him on tape. Even then, I could fix it so that he looks better than he is........

Schutzhund / IPO can't tell me what the dog is really worth but training with a good helper/ decoy can. Good temperament judges, there are still a few left (we have an ex-temperament judge in our club) who's been around a long time - doesn't say much but looks.......and assesses.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> As far as making Sch professional, it has been for years. Look at some of the crap that has won big trials ( at least when I last looked) and you will see this shit get worse.
> 
> Big money is in the show ring, and there are all kinds of abominations going on there.
> 
> When you watch dogsports from a slightly different angle, it is fun to watch people manuever themselves for a better position at the table. Going pro should make for some interesting ass kissing.


 Who are the these rich pro's that have been gobbling up all the Schutzhund money no one I can think of let have some examples. Are you going to link the show dog people to Schutzhund. Gee who just won the Schutzhund Nationals


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

ann freier said:


> and BTW, "tracking is tracking"


But schutzhund tracking _isn't tracking!_ I really hope they adopt the "article search" as a replacement, or in lieu of.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So much for reality, if I am transporting a bad guy, I want the dog paying attention to him as well.


I remain active with SchH, because I enjoy it and learn from it. But I accept it for what it is, and care little if I advance in the sport.

I agree with the usual emphasis that working breeders need to be involved in working trials if they intend to provide for working clients. But I sometimes wonder the point, when _reality takes a backseat_ (presuming every sport has it's own quirks.)

My opinion is that, for a breeder to have _obsessive involvement_ in sport, not only somewhat warps the breeder's aims to produce _for the sake of the sport,_ but the sport also requires much time and energy spent on playing "pretends", detracting from many measures that could be taken to actually improve what _really matters_ for _breeding_ results.

The less applicable a sport becomes to real life work, the less you can rely on it's evaluation for breeding criteria, than as simply a promotional tool.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> The less applicable a sport becomes to real life work, the less you can rely on it's evaluation for breeding criteria, than as simply a promotional tool.


This is an interesting quote and one that I think warrants further discussion (possibly its own thread)...

We only sell to experienced owner/handlers who are planning on trialing their dogs in French Ring, Mondioring or Schutzhund. We never sell dogs as PSD prospects, personal protection dogs and rarely to PSA or any of the other "alternative" sports. We never really think about "real life" as in personal protection, police service or military working dogs. If you want one of those, don't come to us.

Are we ruining the breed or helping it evolve for its current role in our world? 

Lisa


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Not saying that either way is necessarily wrong for the breed, only that what sport has intended to represent for the breed, doesn't actually fit the reality. I think there's a pretty good reason that law enforcement looks less toward German and more toward Czech breeding, and not simply because of the expense. Breeding that fosters the sport has arguably led to softer dogs and softer handlers. Hardness and social aggression, _with sound temperament_ is not overly abundant, _in any lines._ I don't advocate compromising with the "golden middle" either, _I want it all!_


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's nice to know that some breeders are still attempting to breed good, strong dogs with stable nerves that should be able to take on sport and service work.

I read this report on Ondo vom Leipheimer Moor recently:

Ondo possesses drive dispositions that are becoming increasingly rare. His grips are terrific, and when he goes after the helper, he is very concentrated goes in with enormous pressure and strong prey aggression in all important phases, coupled with the necessary toughness to work under pressure. These excellent genetical qualities haven’t made working with this dog easy but they definitely belong in the breeding of good working dogs.

Elmar Mannes, the Leipheimer Moor breeder, came to our club once and I was impressed by his assessment of our dogs.

He trains Sid Haus Pixner, our younger dog's father.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Who was it that gave the report ???? It is always nice to hear, but I read that kind of stuff about dogs I am not so hot on here and there.

After so many times reading good stuff, and then seeing what people were talking about, it would be nice to find someone that isn't "full of it" for a change. LOL I get sick of marketing talk.=D>


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Firstly, if I told you his name, it wouldn't mean anything to you. All I can say is that he is on a German forum and is respected by many of the serious dog handlers. Otherwise, I wouldn't have posted it here. 

That's the difference between club and forum life - here you can brag all you want to and will probably never be found out but what's the point????? On the other hand you can say everything others say is trash and then you'll be talking to yourself in the end :-#


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That's the difference between club and forum life - here you can brag all you want to and will probably never be found out but what's the point????? On the other hand you can say everything others say is trash and then you'll be talking to yourself in the end :-#


:lol: =D>


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Basing the breedingdecision ONLY on performance in whatever sport I think is a bad idea due to the fact that not everything is tested in sports. A good dog is a good dog whatever the sport, it´s just that the different sport have their special little difficulties, the jumps and environments in mondio/BR, the precision in obedience and tracking in SCH, the muzzlework and many exercises in the swedish programm and so on.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Erik Berg said:


> Basing the breedingdecision ONLY on performance in whatever sport I think is a bad idea due to the fact that not everything is tested in sports. A good dog is a good dog whatever the sport, it´s just that the different sport have their special little difficulties, the jumps and environments in mondio/BR, the precision in obedience and tracking in SCH, the muzzlework and many exercises in the swedish programm and so on.


Yes, I agree. Sport performance or points are not enough to base breedings on. We test all of our breeding dogs way beyond the sport they are competing in including aspects that are not judged in sport. We have yet to breed to one of our "points" dogs and often breed to dogs that will never score high in any sport. That said, although we test dogs in the hidden suit, muzzle etc. are goal in breeding is still to produce a dog who will excel in performance/protection sports. If I never produce a PSD or MWD I will not be sorry. I have nothing against those venues (I work at Lackland with MWD's and their handler's/trainers) but it is not the focus of my breeding program.

I just take exception to the comment that not breeding for "real life" is to the detriment of the working dog. "Real Life" has changed and I believe dog breeds/breeders need to evolve with it.

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Thats all fine and dandy that you want to keep your little shutzhunder a secret, funny thing is that while we might NOT know him, there is always a chance that we will know him, or know someone that knows him. Are you afraid that if we know him we will know your dogs????

I was just looking for someone whose opinions you respected, and then suddenly, WOW, you went into hiding.

It's OK Gillian, your sport is producing weak dogs, and the Mals are dominating the sport because of goofy sch crap like a "full calm grip" can't even say BITE anymore, as it might offend Muffy.

You guys are too much like your dogs, look good on the surface, but scratch that surface.............


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Thats all fine and dandy that you want to keep your little shutzhunder a secret, funny thing is that while we might NOT know him, there is always a chance that we will know him, or know someone that knows him. Are you afraid that if we know him we will know your dogs????
> 
> I was just looking for someone whose opinions you respected, and then suddenly, WOW, you went into hiding.
> 
> ...


OK Mondio boy so you have put ONE title on a dog in Mondio what a big baller you are you talk all sorts of smack and rip on others about Schutzhund TELL US how many dogs you have titled in the sport of Schutzhund I'm calling you out let here it. Lets see how well you dance:mrgreen: 
Be interested to here from some your friends you have helped through the years or eaven the ones you have now they could tell us about your amazing insite and abilaties it would be fun to here about it from somone else for a change.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Such a wonderful post Mike. I really enjoy when n00bs try and rip with the asking of this and that of another person.

I really enjoy reading your posts, too bad they are not filled with any training information.

The sad thing is that I have forgotten more about Sch than you obviously know now. Maybe you should get your TD on here to save you when the questions on training are too hard, as all I see is you struggling to regurgitate what you were told. Another thing that I despise about Sch people.

When you actually get to the point in training where you have an original thought, maybe then I will tell you who I am. Maybe if I am up that way, I will come and teach you how to do Sch properly. LOL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Thats all fine and dandy that you want to keep your little shutzhunder a secret, funny thing is that while we might NOT know him, there is always a chance that we will know him, or know someone that knows him. Are you afraid that if we know him we will know your dogs????
> 
> I was just looking for someone whose opinions you respected, and then suddenly, WOW, you went into hiding.
> 
> ...


OK, I won't make this mistake again for sure:-# I didn't give out the name as I only know him from a working dog forum in Germany and I would have had to ask him if he minded my translating his post to post elsewhere. Important is the breeder: Elmar Mannes.

I didn't give out the kennel name of my dogs because here in Europe it's not always the practice. Too many people out there waiting to hear bad things about dogs from this or that kennel. Don't forget, we're very near to each other and "blackmouthing" is not only practiced here](*,) 

My breeder gave up breeding (for the moment due to family changes) so here you are: Randegger Schloss.
Grandfather of one "Ajax Haus Hartmann" and "Ahron Granit Rose" the other.

To say that all breeders of schutzhund dogs everywhere are no good is short-sighted. Not all breed just to produce Schutzhund dogs. Ajax Haus Hartmann was known as one of the best police and sport dogs out. His owner is Police Officer Erwin Patzen.

It's unsporty behaviour that is ruining our dog sports, not schutzhund.........


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sure why not, yet after ten years of Sch, the German Malinois club held a meeting to discuss the fact that the German Malinois was no longer suitable for ringsport. The simple fact was that they were breeding for Sch, and the breed suffered for it.

This is a discussion forum, and the funny thing is that people I have never met like Mike get their panties all in a bunch, but cannot discuss without crying what solution are possible.

I was not making fun of anyone when I asked who you considered a good judge of the GSD. I was merely asking who you respected enough so that if I came across this person, I would be more inclined to read what was written. I find that I skip over a lot of Sch people, and what they write. This is not something that I think is very good of me to do, but it is silly shit like the BH showing the character of the dog, and tracking is a test of nerve, and the infamous "full calm grip" that get MY panties in a bunch.

People take this shit way too seriously, especially when IN GENERAL the GSD breed is in decline.

If there are people out there continuously producing outstanding dogs, capable of more than Sch, then I want to know as well. It is all about the exchange of information for me, and teasing the weak bunched panty group. Sorry Mike. :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have heard of those people, and dogs Don't remember what context, probably some random conversation of GSD lines and breeders more than anything else.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sure why not, yet after ten years of Sch, the German Malinois club held a meeting to discuss the fact that the German Malinois was no longer suitable for ringsport. The simple fact was that they were breeding for Sch, and the breed suffered for it.
> 
> This is a discussion forum, and the funny thing is that people I have never met like Mike get their panties all in a bunch, but cannot discuss without crying what solution are possible.
> 
> ...


Fair enough - will post info with names if I see fit.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would love to take a GSD and do well with Mondio. That would be fun.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Jeff, why was the german malinois not suited for ring after some generations of SCH-breeding? Regarding GSDs I think there are those that could do mondio quite well, I mean there are GSDs and even beacucerons in french ring/campagne, so why not mondio. The jumps may be a problem, but if´t a GSD that are not to big I can´t see why mondio is such a big deal? I´m not sure if it´s only the more phsycial demands in ringsport that have made the mal in general less prone to dysplasia for example, I mean a breed like the dobermann is not so affected by dysplasia, and they haven´t been breed for jumping high and long either.

Ringsport have given the mal the drive and speed not so often found in GSDs, on the other hand, I would take courage and power over intense speed and flash any day, the ringsport breed mals also have their share of weak dogs, even if many of them are very fast and driven in the bitework. I think it´s the selection of what type of dogs to breed that is the main problem, not necessarily the sport, even if I almost dislike SCH as much as you

Lisa, I don´t think the world has changed, there is still a demand for PSDs and different type of servicedogs, probably more so compared to the demand for dogs competing in various protectionsports, or don´t you think?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So the GSD has "courage and power" but the Mal is lacking somehow ? ? ?

Maybe we have not seen the same dogs. All breeds have weak dogs, just that the weakest Mals are dominating Sch right now LOL

I too often see GSD's with high thresholds that esentially are too dumb to see the threat, and if they did, their reaction would be as the foot came off the dent in their skull.

I also hate these thresholds for making the cursed "on off switch" that the retard new people think is so ****ing handy. Oh sure, until you see that switch is not a switch and a threshold, and then the decoy is gone in the escort, gone in the object guard, and once again, the GSD has been failed by breeding for the tard sport. : )

Not that the Mal is my favorite, but I do remember some GSD's that did not have an on off switch, and wish I could reserect them. I remember them pissing me off at the time. How much you learn how stupid you were.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> maybe then I will tell you who I am.
> 
> Oooh go on, let me guess: Max Stephanitz reincarnatedO O O


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Oooh go on, let me guess: Max Stephanitz reincarnatedO O O


Oh. Darn. I thought "Hellboy II."


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Who the hell is he - no doubt some Godlike figure:roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's not always comfortable to be revisited........


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You guys are really weird.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, I can't speak for Connie of course but yes, I'm reallly wierd:mrgreen: ^

Your're a bit slow on the uptake, if i might add


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Maybe a reason for the decline in shepherds, is the general misunderstanding of social aggression and breeding away from it, and confusion at the same time over defensive aggression. Dogs with a healthy prey drive but a low enough threshold for defense tend to be labelled "really strong dogs" with "fight drive", but are they really? These are same dogs I see with "off" switches...they react, when they have a reason to react. Understandable however, as these are easier dogs to handle.

Schutzhund still has dogs I like, but I tend to want to see the dog work and tend to refer back to bloodlines more than just hearing someone say it is a good dog, etc. etc. etc. It also seems like I like the dogs who don't play by the rules better, like Gildo Korbelbach. 

Jeff, have you seen dogs like Dasty von der Berger Hochburg? You can search the video up on youtube.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Good point - I assume these are the dogs you mean that need to hear the note "C" (pardon the pun) before they react, just like an opera singer#-o #-o #-o


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Training information:lol: You think what you offer here is training information If you were to pull your head out of your ass you would still be to stupid to wipe the shit out of your eyes. You have to be living in some sort of a chemically induced dream if you think you can sell me on the idiotic stuff that come out of what you clam.
This is a good one


Jeff Oehlsen;92434 When you actually get to the point in training where you have an original thought said:


> WTF:-o :lol:
> This coming from someone who only up until recently put ONE title on a dog and it wasn't a Schutzhund title I'm just going to toss this out as a guess your not a good enough dog trainer to get a title on a Schutzhund dog. You talk about parroting what are you. No one who traines or has trained with you has come to your defence you did mention you know just about every one in Mondio?:lol:
> You want to keep jumping in on the Schutzhund posts you better be ready for a beat down.:lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ahhh yes, the beat down from one that cannot answer simple questions like where heel is, and if it is a command.

I cannot imagine why anyone would come to defend me when you are pretty much flailing helplessly about on this one.

I have given you every chance to answer some really simple questions, and you have yet to do anything except flail.

Do you really think that you have answered the question of what do you know so thoroughly that I need help from anyone ? ? ? ?

Lets face it, they are sitting back and laughing at the wupping you are getting for not knowing answers to basic basic questions.

Remember, it is open book, so you can call your dad......training director, and get the answers. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Silly Sch person, time to grow wings and find out where you are going for yourself. If your TD ever came to a quick stop...........=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Heeling in dog sport is the dog following the handler left leg, NOT following the decoy like in some video I saw a few weeks ago when the tard handler or whoever trained that dog failed on his Mondio ring trial. What a joke, that video was so funny I laugh my a.. off when I saw it.
In my club, I support all 3 sports, Schutzhund, PSA, Mondio Ring, there are good and bad in all of them, Mondio is not the sport to end all, so stop bashing other sports or other people to make yourself feel taller.
BTW here is the link to that video if you don't know what I'm talking about. (-::::::::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdLwtwBjAK0


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Nice try Koi, heeling is the dogs shoulder in line with the handlers hip. I am sure you have never heard of this, as your head is all Sch. nd up.

There is no following, or it is considered LAGGING, (write that down)

Perhaps you would like to answer some of the questions that Mike has not been able to, or, maybe you could get your training director to help you, as I am sure you do nothing without his approval. LOL

I am quite tall enough Koi, I do not need to feel taller. How did PSA go for you ???? I never heard how you were doing, it has been so long. Maybe we could get a video of your Sch dog doing Mondio, as you support the sport. That would be cool, as I have seen lots of dogs that cross over.

I love conversing with you, and would love to train with you sometime, and maybe I could catch your dog, and you could catch mine. You are the typical bitter sch person that is jealous of others successes and revels in their failures. I am not like that, I wish everyone the best. 

Unlike you Koi, I am not threatened by failing on a trial field. I am perfectly happy learning new the new things that go on, and pass or fail, I enjoy learning.

It is too bad Buko didn't pass, thats for sure, but he was a bit more than I bargained for. I would dare say that trialing on that field again is a no go, as he was buck wild for sure.

By the way, your reading comprehension sucks as well, but maybe english is not your first language. I will be attending a French ring trial up in Hutto Tx next week to cheer on Lisa Maze and her dog Villier. Maybe you could make it and show me how to get my dog to heel. LOL

He is Buck wild. : )


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Hey I'm just having fun with you, don't take it so serious (-:, just like how you said you are just having fun with people on this list when you call them retarted, I have a cousin that is retarted, during pregnacy her mom fell down the stair and damage her brain, and so she was born retarted, not her choosing and so it is not cool when you are calling other people retarted, and yes English is not my first language, but I am a US citizen now, and I think this is the greatest country to live, and I am proud to be an American, I see that you put Stupid San Antonio as where you live, if you hate your own town so much why don't you move? or if you don't like this country then get the f. out.
When you stop calling other people retarted or bashing other dog sports beside yours then yeah man we can catch each other dogs, I'm all about training, and I'm here to get new ideas, my mind is always open for new ideas, but everytime I come here, I see you bashing other people or tell Schutzhund people to grow wing or whatever, that is just getting old.
I don't have video of my dog doing Mondio because that is not what we train for but you can go to my website and watch my partner's dog doing Mondio and I catch the dog, I don't know where you get the part of me being a biter sch person, I love all dog sports and admired awsome training from others but it bugs me when you bash great heeling performance and you yourself can't even heel the dog, and yeah you are right, to be more precise, dog shoulder to handler hip, NOT dog shoulder to DECOY hip.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The problem I have with all dog sports is that they do not come together and "make" the AKC list the titles earned. If they are going to register EU dogs, they should also honor all titles carried by it. Fife titles are not real for real world applications.

Until the PSA, Schutzhund, and others pull real weight or promote another registry, all is pointless. This is the reason I don't go back to sport venues. :evil:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Koi, what makes you think that I am serious? ? ? ?

Have you been to San Antonio ???? If you have and don't think it is stupid...........

I have been calling people retards since the second grade, it has nothing to do with actual retardation. Until they change the constitution, and take away my right to free speech, I will use it as I like.

The INTENT of what someone is saying is where problems lie. you can do stupid Sch all day long and ujntil you started doing PSA and or Mondio, you thought it was the shit. We have had this conversation before, and you got pretty quiet when you started down the path of ringsports, we all know PSA is a bad version of Mondio. : )

When you start with one sport, and immerse yourself in its training and theorys that is what we call your FOUNDATION.

What I keep pointing out to you guys is that your foundation is built on sand, but you keep thinking that you can prove that it is not. I would have loved to have been there to see the look on your face the first time your dog was sent on a guy in a suit. HIS founjdation was built on the same sand of Sch that you were.

So tell me it was not a little bit weird to see those reactions in a well trained "Sch" dog. The difference between myself and many others is that I do not allow foolish shit like my ego to stand in the way of my understanding of dogs and training. I am not afraid, unlike you, and many many others to show my failures.

When I ask simple questions, instead of answering, I get the same reaction from Sch people (in general) that I do with their dogs: threat posturing.

Next time instead of trying to impress me with your ability to post a link to a video that I posted, maybe you MIGHT think about answering the questions asked. Never know, get rid of the fear of being wrong or failing, and you just might learn something, even from me.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Is this still the question about correct heeling position? It's dogs shoulder blade to handler's knee, not dog to handler's hip, Jeff.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ahhh yes, the beat down from one that cannot answer simple questions like where heel is, and if it is a command.
> 
> I cannot imagine why anyone would come to defend me when you are pretty much flailing helplessly about on this one.
> 
> ...


 This some crazy shit your spewing  DAMN! :lol:


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

Qoute "This some crazy shit your spewing" 

Come on Mike I know you can do better than that. I was just starting to enjoy I was just starting to enjoy. I dont usually pay much attention to Internet chit chat but this was getting good. 

PS Milo just gave a good growl for you. He would never do that to Jeff
I am sure he would run him off the field.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dan Reiter said:


> Qoute "This some crazy shit your spewing"
> 
> Come on Mike I know you can do better than that. I was just starting to enjoy I was just starting to enjoy. I dont usually pay much attention to Internet chit chat but this was getting good.
> 
> ...


Heh Dan How the hell ya been it's been a wile as you can see winter is setting in and I have taken up cleaning up dog boards Milo is welcome to lift his leg on this one he is as dumb as they come. I got to go to work I'll send you a PM


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dumb, but able to answer the basic questions asked of him, unlike yourself Mike.

Try answering some of these easy questions, as currently it is not I that is the dumb one.

Dan, I would be more than glad to work your dog if we ever meet. I don't know about running him, as that is not really good training.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Hi Dan,

How is Tampa doing?

Max


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Locked till I have time to read this.


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