# 2013 AWDF Ivan and Ebor Protection



## Thomas Barriano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wylPvmHDO4&feature=em-uploademail

I think it was a bad presentation/catch that cost Ivan the championship. Looking for other opinions on the video only.


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wylPvmHDO4&feature=em-uploademail
> 
> I think it was a bad presentation/catch that cost Ivan the championship. Looking for other opinions on the video only.


view obscured by helper.


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## Katie Finlay

Joby Becker said:


> view obscured by helper.


Agreed. But I also wonder why the dog did not appear to leap for the bite as per usual?

I wouldn't say it cost him the championship. It doesn't really ring true and as others say it's disrespectful to those that did place.


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## Thomas Barriano

Katie,

Nothing disrespectful at all. You add the points that got deducted for a missed long bite to the 92 final score and Ebor wins easily


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## Mark Sheplak

Thomas Barriano said:


> Katie,
> 
> Nothing disrespectful at all. You add the points that got deducted for a missed long bite to the 92 final score and Ebor wins easily


Ditto, nothing disrespectful. Bad catches happen, it is just unfortunate that this cost Ebor the title. 

Looks like Hampton tries to get out of the way early and gives a bad presentation. Ebor doesn't bounce or flick, he just flat out is "ole'd". He then gets knocked on his can. Not good. 

It is a shame that Hampton didn't include Ebor's "catch" in his highlight's video so we could all get a better camera angle. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wylPvmHDO4


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## Mark Sheplak

Looks like the initial presentation of the sleeve is low, around belt level, based on this screen shot. 









The helper then stands taller and pops the sleeve higher to chest level.










This is why Ebor likely launched late. The target moved up.

Doesn't seem like a sound, consistent presentation. Everyone makes mistakes, unfortunately, this cost Ivan big time.


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## Faisal Khan

Thomas Barriano said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wylPvmHDO4&feature=em-uploademail
> 
> I think it was a bad presentation/catch that cost Ivan the championship. Looking for other opinions on the video only.


Off course, if he had not placed 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th........... he would have won.


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## Thomas Barriano

Faisal Khan said:


> Off course, if he had not placed 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th........... he would have won.


And if he hadn't missed the long bite (thorough no fault of his or Ivans) and the point deductions he would have V rated AND won.
Simple addition.


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## Faisal Khan

Bull Shit, but keep it coming.


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## Mark Sheplak

Just before contact... Sleeve changed levels again and is now sideways, as is the helper with both feet off the ground. 










Just seems like a poor catch. The helper has a poor presentation (perhaps late getting the sleeve up for the speed of Ebor) and jumps out of the way.


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## Mark Sheplak

Faisal Khan said:


> Bull Shit, but keep it coming.


Isn't "Attack on the dog out of motion" worth 10 points? 

http://www.fci.be/circulaires/55-2011-annex-en.pdf

How many points did he lose? It had to be at least 3. 

He finished with a 284 and was 5th. 

Three more points has him at 287 and he wins.

How again did this not cost him?


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## Thomas Barriano

Faisal Khan said:


> Bull Shit, but keep it coming.


Please keep the comments focused on the video or the screen captures of the video.


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## FRANK PORT

Did Ivan have any comments on the catch?


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## Mark Sheplak

FRANK PORT said:


> Did Ivan have any comments on the catch?


From his facebook page, 

https://www.facebook.com/Ivan.Balabanov

_"Protection 92.... On the long bite the helper turn too soon and did not allow him to get a grip. 
It is very unfortunate ( for us) because Ebor did awesome! 
I know the helper did not make it to screw me on purpose so I can't be mad at him for that but .... I am UPSET because we did not get a fair shot at protection today. Ebor can make 94 in protection blindfolded an this was enough to win the championship. But here we go ... need to look forward to the next competition now"
_


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## Faisal Khan

Mark Sheplak said:


> How again did this not cost him?


The dog missed , lost points. If the dog had not missed.... no one knows and it is anyone's guess. Guessing the outcome of a competition is Bull Shit.


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## Mark Sheplak

Faisal Khan said:


> The dog missed , lost points. If the dog had not missed.... no one knows and it is anyone's guess. Guessing the outcome of a competition is Bull Shit.


No guessing here. Poor helper work cost him points.


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## Faisal Khan

Mark Sheplak said:


> No guessing here. Poor helper work cost him points.


You are guessing, making assumptions and declaring verdicts. You do have a right to your guesses, assumptions and verdicts but at the end of the day it is just that.


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## Mario Fernandez

Ivan would of won maybe if they would of got full points for the Blind search....dog doesn't go to blind 4...breaks sit early on the begin of the back transport, breaks its sit on the side transport to the judge, and after the courage test the dog breaks his sit again heeling into the side transport...Ivan speaks his command quitely so hard to tell if the dog is anticipating or not....but not going to blind four cost him so points.. The courage test wouldn't matter if he lost points for all these exercises...Ebor nice dog, not a fan of his barking


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## Thomas Barriano

Mario

What makes you think Ebor missed blind 4?
The judge can't take points if he doesn't see the dog break the sit early. It looks like he's walking up the field then?


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## Mario Fernandez

I stand corrected...my apologies....if you think the judge doesn't see stuff you be surprised....could of also took points from the guarding after the re-attack when ebor did a head check as Ivan approaches...Have to hear the critique to see the full point break downs...


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## Katie Finlay

Are there videos of the other dogs' routines?


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## Joby Becker

Katie Finlay said:


> Are there videos of the other dogs' routines?


top 10 full routines right here for ya..  second tab over....

http://www.shellshots.com/13awdfOrderform.html


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## Katie Finlay

The presentation looks the same on all of the dogs to me. Malinois at 7:30 bit. 

Ebor missed the bite, and the presentation was fair IMO.


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## Mark Sheplak

Katie Finlay said:


> The presentation looks the same on all of the dogs to me. Malinois at 7:30 bit.
> 
> Ebor missed the bite, and the presentation was fair IMO.


Here is a screen shot of the Mal at 7:30










Here is the screen shot of Ebor at about the same point, maybe a little earlier.










Does this look like a consistent presentation of the sleeve for both dogs? 

Ebor is much faster than that other Mal and the helper initially presents the sleeve low or is late with his presentation.


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## Thomas Barriano

Katie

Look at the screen captures. The sleeve is low, then it's high, then the sleeve and Marcus turn to the side. If all the presentations were the same more dogs would have missed the long bite


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## Christopher Smith

Mark Sheplak said:


> Does this look like a consistent presentation of the sleeve for both dogs?


Yes! It looks like a helper consistently trying his best.

Mark you don't know what you are talking about.


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## Mark Sheplak

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes! It looks like a helper consistently trying his best.
> 
> Mark you don't know what you are talking about.


I didn't say that he wasn't trying his best. No one stated that this was intentional. 

He gets an A+ for effort, but he clearly messed up. Every helper makes mistakes. I get it, but this time helper mistakes affected the outcome of a huge trial. 

If I don't know what I am talking about, please explain the screen shots and how they relate to sound technique in the long catch?

1) Doesn't the helper initially present low or was late getting the sleeve up?

2) Doesn't the helper then change the sleeve elevation about a foot upwards from his gut to his chest?

Are the screen shots lying?

Again, I understand that Hampton is very accomplished and was trying hard. I also understand that this is part of the sport.

That being said, Hampton cost Ivan the title.


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## Thomas Barriano

It appears that Mark is believing his own eyes and not what he's being told. I have no doubt that Marcus was trying his best, but based on the video (particularly the screen captures) the sleeve was all over the place in the matter of a second or two. Blame it on the muddy field or the decoy not adjusting to the speed or 
attack angle of the dog but don't try to blame it on Ebor.


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## Eric Read

I think you guys are pathetic. Breaking down very fair and very good helper work to a screenshot. It wasn't perfect and it wasn't wrong. Let it go.


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## Thomas Barriano

Eric Read said:


> I think you guys are pathetic. Breaking down very fair and very good helper work to a screenshot. It wasn't perfect and it wasn't wrong. Let it go.


Eric,

How was the helper work with Ebor not Wrong?
The sleeve has to be kept stationary/still to let the dog target
properly. It wasn't in this case. When people claim stuff happened when it did NOT then a screen capture might be the only way to prove otherwise


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## Eric Read

Why doesn't it surprise me that you have more to say? Some judges tell you to run thru the dog and not give any target till the last possible second. But you wouldnt know that. I'd be highly surprised if you've ever caught a dog of his caliber to even begin to understand what you think you see. The work wasn't wrong by any means. The dog had more than ample opportunity to grip, he missed it. It happens, move on.


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## Mario Fernandez

+ 1 good post

Pg 17 of the FCI rules...talks about the dog out of motion..


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## Christopher Smith

Mark Sheplak said:


> I didn't say that he wasn't trying his best. No one stated that this was intentional.
> 
> He gets an A+ for effort, but he clearly messed up. Every helper makes mistakes. I get it, but this time helper mistakes affected the outcome of a huge trial.
> 
> If I don't know what I am talking about, please explain the screen shots and how they relate to sound technique in the long catch?
> 
> 1) Doesn't the helper initially present low or was late getting the sleeve up?
> 
> 2) Doesn't the helper then change the sleeve elevation about a foot upwards from his gut to his chest?
> 
> Are the screen shots lying?
> 
> Again, I understand that Hampton is very accomplished and was trying hard. I also understand that this is part of the sport.
> 
> That being said, Hampton cost Ivan the title.


1&2)Too low for what? Too late for what? I don't know. You tell me. Did the dog do something that caused the helper to react? Did the dog start going one way then decide to go another? Does the dog change his timing while coming in? Unless you are able to answer those questions with absolute certainty you are talking out of your ass. Maybe it's the dog's fault. Maybe it's a combo of the dog and helper. 

If you understood the very basics of helper work you would understand that every dog is different therefore there is a different sleeve placement (*not presentation*) for every dog. And no the sleeve is not supposed to be in a static position. 

WTF is the world coming to? People can no longer simply accept that bad things happen and no one is to blame. Unless you have a DeLorean with a flux capacitor in it sitting in you driveway you need to grow the hell up and understand this fact of life.


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## Connie Sutherland

Christopher said _"... bad things happen and no one is to blame" ..... _

Thomas said _" ... I have no doubt that Marcus was trying his best" ... _

Mark said _" ... this is part of the sport" ...
_



And Ivan said on FB _"here we go ... need to look forward to the next competition now" ... _


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## Mark Sheplak

Christopher Smith said:


> 1&2)Too low for what? Too late for what? I don't know. You tell me. Did the dog do something that caused the helper to react? Did the dog start going one way then decide to go another? Does the dog change his timing while coming in? Unless you are able to answer those questions with absolute certainty you are talking out of your ass. Maybe it's the dog's fault. Maybe it's a combo of the dog and helper.
> 
> If you understood the very basics of helper work you would understand that every dog is different therefore there is a different sleeve placement (*not presentation*) for every dog. And no the sleeve is not supposed to be in a static position.
> 
> WTF is the world coming to? People can no longer simply accept that bad things happen and no one is to blame. Unless you have a DeLorean with a flux capacitor in it sitting in you driveway you need to grow the hell up and understand this fact of life.


No need for the profanity. A coherent point is sufficient to stand by itself. 

I am more than happy to leave it as it being part of the sport. Why can't you recognize that the helper made a mistake on this dog? No one is perfect and it happens to everyone. 

I understand that every dog is different. I also understand that a dog can change sides and zig-zag at the last minute. This is the danger in trying force a dog to one side or the other. 

I also understand that it is never appropriate for a helper to present the sleeve at belt level when the dog is 10 feet away and then suddenly pop it upwards. The initial presentation on a long bite should chest height. I have never seen or heard of it being taught differently. 

The helper presented low, the dog targeted low, the helper then popped the sleeve high and turned prematurely, the dog missed.

I would venture to say that if it wasn't Marcus Hampton and Ivan, but instead it was just some generic YouTube post, people would call it what it is, a poor presentation and blown catch by the helper. 

As for generalized social commentary....a sign of being a mature adult is the ability to admit when an error was made. Errors and mistakes happen despite the best of intentions. Failure to recognize an error increases the probability of it happening again. 

I am just happy that neither the helper or dog were injured.


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## Michael Murphy

don't blame the helper blame the sh*t sport. Put a suit on the man for heavens sake. its suppose to test the working ability of dogs, not the ability of a decoy to perfectly present a sleeve. shutzhund/ipo is the show sport ( derived from show dog) of the sporting/working dog world. AKA its a joke thats ruining dog breeds. ](*,)


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## mike suttle

Marcus is a good decoy, Ebor is a good dog, Ivan is a good trainer, and Miran is a good Judge. While no one was happy with what happened, no one is blaming anyone else about it. 
Look at the expression on Marcus's face when Ivan comes up to begin the transport, he is already beating himself up about it. Ivan is dissapointed but he too has made mistakes as a helper and he knows that shit happens. There are a lot of "ifs" that go with every competition. "if" the helper would have not made an error, "if" the dog would have still been able to somehow snag the sleeve even though it was poorly presented to him........but, on this day there were other dogs who had better luck.
I would agree that Ebor likely would have won the event had Marcus not made a mistake, but no one is being harder on Marcus, than Marcus himself is I'm sure. My bet is that he gave Ivan an apology shortly after the event and Ivan very likely said that he knows shit happens.


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## Dave Martin

mike suttle said:


> Marcus is a good decoy, Ebor is a good dog, Ivan is a good trainer, and Miran is a good Judge. While no one was happy with what happened, no one is blaming anyone else about it.
> Look at the expression on Marcus's face when Ivan comes up to begin the transport, he is already beating himself up about it. Ivan is dissapointed but he too has made mistakes as a helper and he knows that shit happens. There are a lot of "ifs" that go with every competition. "if" the helper would have not made an error, "if" the dog would have still been able to somehow snag the sleeve even though it was poorly presented to him........but, on this day there were other dogs who had better luck.
> I would agree that Ebor likely would have won the event had Marcus not made a mistake, but no one is being harder on Marcus, than Marcus himself is I'm sure. My bet is that he gave Ivan an apology shortly after the event and Ivan very likely said that he knows shit happens.


+1


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## Stefan Schaub

Michael Murphy said:


> don't blame the helper blame the sh*t sport. Put a suit on the man for heavens sake. its suppose to test the working ability of dogs, not the ability of a decoy to perfectly present a sleeve. shutzhund/ipo is the show sport ( derived from show dog) of the sporting/working dog world. AKA its a joke thats ruining dog breeds. ](*,)


Now you are a expert?????
i have read many of your questions on this forum,sometimes i have asked my self if you may have to much time.

Yes it is a sport same like ring ,mondio and knpv.
there is a judge on the field who decide what is right and wrong.he have the power to say it was a helper mistake, give the dog the full points for the long bite and explain why. the judge did not.that is live,bad for the Ivan in that case, but it happen every weekend some where on a field.

does it change the quality of a dog,no!!!does it change the quality of the helper,no!!!
do not know Marcus,have see him only on some youtube movies and there he did it nice.for the rest of all the smart talker!! take a sleeve go to the end of the field start running against the dog and make a catch.we will see how many of the dogs run empty or slam into the helper.


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## Angie Stark

Human error, beit the helper, handler or judge happens. Even the best has a blooper here and there and I think it's unfair to pick anyone apart for it. Now, if a person is consistently making mistakes, thats another topic.

Its a SPORT that involves humans and dogs. Accidents, errors, blunders, etc will happen, its just a part of it and has to be accepted as such or it takes the fun out of what we all love. We do it for the love of the dogs and the sport, the wondering if someone was unfair or sabotaged just takes away from that. I doubt there is anyone who has trialed a dog more than a few times that hasnt had some sort of unfortunate incident happen to them. We just have to realize that that on that day, things didnt fall into place for us and that these things happen and we will try again another day.


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## Timothy Saunders

I agree that the presentation for the dog wasn't the best. At the same time like someone said what did the decoy see. Some dogs take off early like knpv dogs some wait till the last minute to come up. I know he is supposed to catch every dog the same way but if he see the dog coming low he has to put the sleeve there. One of the hardest things to do in dog trialing is to see different dogs and make all of the catches right. We see it so often we take it for granted.


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## Joby Becker

does anyone here know how many points were deducted becuase of the miss itself?


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## John Sequino

Mark Sheplak said:


> Here is a screen shot of the Mal at 7:30
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the screen shot of Ebor at about the same point, maybe a little earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this look like a consistent presentation of the sleeve for both dogs?
> 
> Ebor is much faster than that other Mal and the helper initially presents the sleeve low or is late with his presentation.



Because you are looking at the stick arm not the sleeve, how do you know where the sleeve is, his arm is blocking it.


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## John Sequino

Mark Sheplak said:


> I didn't say that he wasn't trying his best. No one stated that this was intentional.
> 
> He gets an A+ for effort, but he clearly messed up. Every helper makes mistakes. I get it, but this time helper mistakes affected the outcome of a huge trial.
> 
> If I don't know what I am talking about, please explain the screen shots and how they relate to sound technique in the long catch?
> 
> 1) Doesn't the helper initially present low or was late getting the sleeve up?
> 
> 2) Doesn't the helper then change the sleeve elevation about a foot upwards from his gut to his chest?
> 
> Are the screen shots lying?
> 
> Again, I understand that Hampton is very accomplished and was trying hard. I also understand that this is part of the sport.
> 
> That being said, Hampton cost Ivan the title.


I think what you are looking at is Marcus bending over when he threatens with the stick, if you look at the other dogs it's the same. The dog didn't make the grip, and yes I was there.


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## Katie Finlay

Joby Becker said:


> does anyone here know how many points were deducted becuase of the miss itself?


I would love to find out!


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## Keith Jenkins

I've looked at this video until my eyes bled and in all honesty I can't put much blame on the helper. To me it looks as if the dog just didn't get the grip and the opportunity was there. Not sure whether the soggy ground conditions played a part or not but it looks like the dog submarined the bite at the last instant and never really got off the ground. ( To me if the dog launches or not is not a big deal as long as they stick the bite)


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## Keith Jenkins

Joby Becker said:


> does anyone here know how many points were deducted becuase of the miss itself?


Rule of thumb is usually 5 points. The entire exercise is only worth 10.


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## John Sequino

Keith Jenkins said:


> I've looked at this video until my eyes bled and in all honesty I can't put much blame on the helper. To me it looks as if the dog just didn't get the grip and the opportunity was there. Not sure whether the soggy ground conditions played a part or not but it looks like the dog submarined the bite at the last instant and never really got off the ground. ( To me if the dog launches or not is not a big deal as long as they stick the bite)


I believe the same. People are confusing the treat with presentation, look at Marcus's right arm and body when he makes a threat, he bends forward. I don't know how anyone can be sure where the sleeve actually is in those blurred screen shots, his right arm is covering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txZunzPnhso Watch the 2nd and 5th dog and this is exactly the same threat posture. What ever it was he didn't make the grip.


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## Thomas Barriano

Look at the last 20 seconds of the video and the reaction from the guy with the closest view of what happened...the decoy himself.
His reaction tells you everything about what happened and why.


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## Eric Read

He was probably thinking, "oh great, a bunch of internet wizards are going to dissect the crap out of this unfortunate situation having never, nor will they ever, be in this position in their entire life"


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## Keith Jenkins

Thomas Barriano said:


> Look at the last 20 seconds of the video and the reaction from the guy with the closest view of what happened...the decoy himself.
> His reaction tells you everything about what happened and why.


Really? You got all that Thomas? Or perhaps he was trying to catch his breath or simply was thinking you know it's too bad he didn't make the bite....I wouldn't expect any decoy to be elated for a dog not making a grip..


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## John Sequino

eric read said:


> he was probably thinking, "oh great, a bunch of internet wizards are going to dissect the crap out of this unfortunate situation having never, nor will they ever, be in this position in their entire life"


Bingo!


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## Mario Fernandez

Great post Eric


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## Christopher Jones

What was with the first couple of Malis on the vid? Slowest Malis I have seen on a long bite, ears up the whole way.


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## Thomas Barriano

Eric Read said:


> He was probably thinking, "oh great, a bunch of internet wizards are going to dissect the crap out of this unfortunate situation having never, nor will they ever, be in this position in their entire life"



Yeah Eric, I bet that's what he was thinking. Of course you'd know this on account of all the National trials that you've decoyed? ROTFLMAO


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Jones said:


> What was with the first couple of Malis on the vid? Slowest Malis I have seen on a long bite, ears up the whole way.


It was a Malinois conspiracy. They all got together before the trial and said "ok you first guys go in slow like a GSD and get the decoy reacting slowly. Then Ebor will turn on the after burners and come in low so he makes a bad catch.


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## Connie Sutherland

John Sequino said:


> Bingo!



Hi, John, and welcome,

Please don't forget your intro at http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you!


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## Paul R. Konschak

Can someone critique the helper's work for this dog at the DHV DM 2013 in frame by frame detail? 

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/123414/Fred-vom-Brunsbeker-Land

Somehow Fred was able to make the grip when the helper turned early so the dog did not break his neck


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## Thomas Barriano

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Can someone critique the helper's work for this dog at the DHV DM 2013 in frame by frame detail?
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/123414/Fred-vom-Brunsbeker-Land
> 
> Somehow Fred was able to make the grip when the helper turned early so the dog did not break his neck


Paul,

If you'd like to critique this dogs performance? Then please start your own thread and provide a link to a video that doesn't require a membership fee to view. Thanks


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## Mario Fernandez

I guess we resolved the issue on working-dog.eu that you need to be a premium member to see some of the CH videos...


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## Stefan Schaub

Joby Becker said:


> does anyone here know how many points were deducted becuase of the miss itself?


3 points


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## Thomas Barriano

284 + 3 = AWDF Champion


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## Christopher Smith

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Can someone critique the helper's work for this dog at the DHV DM 2013 in frame by frame detail?
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/123414/Fred-vom-Brunsbeker-Land
> 
> Somehow Fred was able to make the grip when the helper turned early so the dog did not break his neck


Yes he did. I also noticed that the front half helper turn stick side on the back transport and I was told on this forum that that was damn near impossible. 

I have paid the cost to be the boss and watched the video.


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> 284 + 3 = AWDF Champion


ASSuming the dog made no other mistakes after the longbite.


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## Christopher Smith

Mario Fernandez said:


> I guess we resolved the issue on working-dog.eu that you need to be a premium member to see some of the CH videos...


It was resolved when I paid for my membership.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> ASSuming the dog made no other mistakes after the longbite. .....



Seeing as how Ebor got a 92 even with the missed long bite it's not much of an assumption to conclude he would have managed to complete the rest of the routine without errors,
Especially considering how he manged to come back from the missed bite.


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## Joby Becker

](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Christopher Smith

So if you can make that ASSumtion why not take it a step further? 

Why not stop the work after the front half and ASSume full points for the entire back half? But wait! Why do some half ass chicken shit?

Why not put the podium out on the first day of the trial, give you a call on the phone and let you ASSume the winner? But why not do this right?


Why not send all of the entries to you? You could ASSume the winner and mail them the trophy. This way people don't have to spend money and time training their dogs. Hell they won't even have to own a dog!

You are like the Rainman of IPO! How come it has taken me so long to recognize your retarded genius?


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


Oh goody. I've always wanted to have a reason to do that stupid +1 thing that people do here and you just gave me the perfect situation to do it with.

Oh yes, I almost forgot...

+1 :twisted:

There. One off the bucket list. Thanks Joby!


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## Connie Sutherland

Let's keep the name-calling down. 

Thanks.


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## Connie Sutherland

Joby Becker said:


> ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)



+1 from me too.


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## John Sequino

http://donnahaynes.smugmug.com

Not convinced that it will finalize anything but, pretty good photos of the bite work under the AWDF section.


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## Keith Jenkins

Looks like the dog had a grip to me and lost it.


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## Thomas Barriano

The most relevant photos to the topic would be 24 and 25. Unfortunately both views are obscured by the decoy. Looks like Ebor at least got his teeth on the sleeve to torque his body like that.


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## Christopher Smith

John Sequino said:


> http://donnahaynes.smugmug.com


 Really nice pics! Thanks Donna.


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> The most relevant photos to the topic would be 24 and 25. Unfortunately both views are obscured by the decoy. Looks like Ebor at least got his teeth on the sleeve to torque his body like that.


So you didn't see that the dog had his teeth on the sleeve, yet you saw enough to blame it on Marcus? :screwy:


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> So you didn't see that the dog had his teeth on the sleeve, yet you saw enough to blame it on Marcus? :screwy:


Chris 

What the hell are you talking about? The fact that the dog probably got a couple of teeth in the sleeve doesn't change the fact (proved by the screen shots) that the sleeve was up and down and in picture 24 both of the decoys feet were off the ground (he jumped maybe? )
It was one bad presentation out of 50+ dogs that cost Ivan/Ebor the AWDF Championship. So Marcus still gets a V rating for his decoy work. I just don't know why you people don't just admit it was a bad catch and move on?


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas I think you should get a brain scan. Seriously.


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## Thomas Barriano

And I think you should get a clue......seriously


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## Connie Sutherland

Maybe the Thomas-and-Christopher discussion can go to PMs.

Does anyone else have anything to add?


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## Nicole Stark

Connie Sutherland said:


> Maybe the Thomas-and-Christopher discussion can go to PMs.
> 
> Does anyone else have anything to add?


Um...+1. AHHH!! I crack myself up sometimes. \\/ 

Jesus what a stupid trend. I have no idea what people get out of doing that. It's like some gay thumbs up or just a super lazy way of saying I agree. Shit, then why say anything at all? Maybe this is the beginning of us speaking in binary code.

Sorry Connie. I'll just bow out of this about to be chained discussion and close with 10001110101. :mrgreen:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nicole Stark said:


> Um...+1. AHHH!! I crack myself up sometimes. \\/
> 
> Jesus what a stupid trend. I have no idea what people get out of doing that. .... Shit, then why say anything at all? Maybe this is the beginning of us speaking in binary code. ... close with 10001110101. :mrgreen:


+1

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Um...+1. AHHH!! I crack myself up sometimes. \\/
> 
> Jesus what a stupid trend. I have no idea what people get out of doing that. It's like some gay thumbs up or just a super lazy way of saying I agree. Shit, then why say anything at all? Maybe this is the beginning of us speaking in binary code.
> 
> Sorry Connie. I'll just bow out of this about to be chained discussion and close with 10001110101. :mrgreen:


hey man....
I like the +1, personally.

It is no secret that I type a bunch of shyt on here, sometimes it is nice to know how much some of that crap is in line with how more "normal" (whatever that is LOL) people might be looking at something, or how they view it, as many people have a higher inhibition to voicing thier opinions in any detail.

Since it is a discussion forum, sometimes I am just left with the choice of thinking t that hardly anyone cares about the topic, or that they must just agree mostly, since they are not voicing different takes or opinions on the matter, or thinking that people just might think I have nutty points of view that are way off base.

I get PMs from a fair amount of people that do agree with most of what I try to say on here, but just do not post it publically, because of lack of interest from the bulk of membership, or lack of knowledge base from the people that are posting on a subject, that just dont understand, or dont want to try to be open minded, their minds are made up.

Sometimes I am left assuming people think I am completely offbase, and maybe nutty as hell, which could be true... and those occasional +1s, sometimes make it worthwhile as a guage to what others are thinking, sort of like a "like" button on FB, or a thumbs up or down on Youtube, and go a little ways to help me realize I might not just be insane.

also if there is a huge discrepency of opinions on a subject, I will drop a +1, to let that person know I agree with them...without having to say much more than that...so a +1= i agree. even if it is corny


----------



## susan tuck

Joby Becker said:


> hey man....
> I like the +1, personally.
> 
> It is no secret that I type a bunch of shyt on here, sometimes it is nice to know how much some of that crap is in line with how more "normal" (whatever that is LOL) people might be looking at something, or how they view it, as many people have a higher inhibition to voicing thier opinions in any detail.
> 
> Since it is a discussion forum, sometimes I am just left with the choice of thinking t that hardly anyone cares about the topic, or that they must just agree mostly, since they are not voicing different takes or opinions on the matter, or thinking that people just might think I have nutty points of view that are way off base.
> 
> I get PMs from a fair amount of people that do agree with most of what I try to say on here, but just do not post it publically, because of lack of interest from the bulk of membership, or lack of knowledge base from the people that are posting on a subject, that just dont understand, or dont want to try to be open minded, their minds are made up.
> 
> Sometimes I am left assuming people think I am completely offbase, and maybe nutty as hell, which could be true... and those occasional +1s, sometimes make it worthwhile as a guage to what others are thinking, sort of like a "like" button on FB, or a thumbs up or down on Youtube, and go a little ways to help me realize I might not just be insane.
> 
> also if there is a huge discrepency of opinions on a subject, I will drop a +1, to let that person know I agree with them...without having to say much more than that...so a +1= i agree. even if it is corny


+1 Agreed!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

I feel pretty much the same. It's also a way to highlight particularly good points (in the highlighter's eyes) from someone else's post, and specifically agree with those.

It seems to me that it can kind of save a post that may wrap up the replies well, in many eyes, from that limbo of "was I so stupid that the thread is dead, or so brilliant that there's no more to add?"


However, I'm also intrigued by Nicole's binary idea. :lol:



Also, I was thinking that we could say "-1" when feeling fractious but still lazy. LOL


----------



## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> hey man....
> I like the +1, personally.
> 
> It is no secret that I type a bunch of shyt on here, sometimes it is nice to know how much some of that crap is in line with how more "normal" (whatever that is LOL) people might be looking at something, or how they view it, as many people have a higher inhibition to voicing thier opinions in any detail.
> 
> Since it is a discussion forum, sometimes I am just left with the choice of thinking t that hardly anyone cares about the topic, or that they must just agree mostly, since they are not voicing different takes or opinions on the matter, or thinking that people just might think I have nutty points of view that are way off base.
> 
> I get PMs from a fair amount of people that do agree with most of what I try to say on here, but just do not post it publically, because of lack of interest from the bulk of membership, or lack of knowledge base from the people that are posting on a subject, that just dont understand, or dont want to try to be open minded, their minds are made up.
> 
> Sometimes I am left assuming people think I am completely offbase, and maybe nutty as hell, which could be true... and those occasional +1s, sometimes make it worthwhile as a guage to what others are thinking, sort of like a "like" button on FB, or a thumbs up or down on Youtube, and go a little ways to help me realize I might not just be insane.
> 
> also if there is a huge discrepency of opinions on a subject, I will drop a +1, to let that person know I agree with them...without having to say much more than that...so a +1= i agree. even if it is corny


+1


----------



## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> hey man....
> I like the +1, personally.so a +1= i agree. even if it is corny


If you had responded with "sarcasm", I would have replied with BAZINGA.

It was a rhetorical question/statement of sort but a response that would predictably invite and foolishly reinforce it's usage. click-click, :idea:

I get it. It's both validation process and a social gesture of sort. One involving a likeness of thought or perhaps in absence of being present with one another a substitute for body language or even physical contact like a high five or pat on the back.

I never liked the idea of being a Stepford Wife so I don't particularly embrace the +1 or "like" concepts that others may. It's curious to me how quickly people fall into order with things like that. In a year from now, it will probably be something else. Reminds me a bit of a memory I have of the 6th grade though when I heard two kids talking in a corner of the class room. Hey Kelle do you want to know what the new word is? What? Masturbation! What does that mean... and so it goes.

I was really just kidding around with you guys to intentionally derail the slapfest Thomas and Chris were having with each other.


----------



## Joby Becker

Connie Sutherland said:


> It seems to me that it can kind of save a post that may wrap up the replies well, in many eyes, from that limbo of *"was I so stupid that the thread is dead, or so brilliant that there's no more to add?"*


I have been left in that quandary many many times 

I try to convince myself that it was the latter usually 

and oh... +1


----------



## susan tuck

Connie Sutherland said:


> ...
> Also, I was thinking that we could say "-1" when feeling fractious but still lazy. LOL



*You mean like this?*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris
> 
> What the hell are you talking about? The fact that the dog probably got a couple of teeth in the sleeve doesn't change the fact (proved by the screen shots) that the sleeve was up and down and in picture 24 both of the decoys feet were off the ground (he jumped maybe? )
> It was one bad presentation out of 50+ dogs that cost Ivan/Ebor the AWDF Championship. So Marcus still gets a V rating for his decoy work. I just don't know why you people don't just admit it was a bad catch and move on?


*-1 the blurry screen shots don't prove jack* I don't know what makes you think that just because you see something one way, those that don't are somehow just not admitting something. Who do you think you are? Some people disagree with you, actually LOTS of people apparently disagree with you, and nothing you say is going to change that.
:lol:


----------



## Joby Becker

hey I like that...

-1

I'll keep that one in mind.


----------



## Steve Strom

Over all, I found this pretty interesting after having different videos linked for me to watch and adding some different context as far as judges instructions, different dogs training and styles. Gave me a new appreciation for something that has a lot more going on then I ever really paid attention to.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> hey I like that...
> 
> -1
> 
> I'll keep that one in mind.


Here's a fun fact, check back. I already used that when I responded to Faisal for something he said or rather didn't say to Thomas. It's MINE!

And now back to the thread. I see Steve posted something meaningful. Goody.


----------



## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Here's a fun fact, check back. I already used that when I responded to Faisal for something he said or rather didn't say to Thomas. It's MINE!
> 
> And now back to the thread. I see Steve posted something meaningful. Goody.


that is interesting concept..

the "now back to the thread" one...


----------



## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wylPvmHDO4&feature=em-uploademail
> 
> I think it was a bad presentation/catch that cost Ivan the championship. Looking for other opinions on the video only.


I don't think it's really possible to reach a conclusion one way or the other based on the video.

I also wouldn't form an opinion based on a couple of blurry screen shots. 

So for me, I listen to the people who were there, who were also competing or were simply on the sidelines and it seems the consensus of those who have posted on the various threads started by you about this, actually do not agree that it was an error on Marcus' part that cost the dog the championship...so that's good enough for me. 


And those are my only and last words on this...I promise!...(unless of course, I feel the need to respond to any possible snarkey response, though I can't imagine who would do that!)


----------



## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> I don't think it's really possible to reach a conclusion one way or the other based on the video.
> 
> I also wouldn't form an opinion based on a couple of blurry screen shots.
> 
> So for me, I listen to the people who were there, who were also competing or were simply on the sidelines and it seems the consensus of those who have posted on the various threads started by you about this, actually do not agree that it was an error on Marcus' part that cost the dog the championship...so that's good enough for me.
> 
> 
> And those are my only and last words on this...I promise!...(unless of course, I feel the need to respond to any possible snarkey response, though I can't imagine who would do that!)


Meant to also say but too late to edit, As Stefan Shaub mentioned, the judge could have awarded the points and cited "helper error" but he didn't, so that tells me the judge also didn't think Marcus did anything wrong.

Listen on any given day, something can go wonky. On THAT day, he wasn't the best dog, doesn't mean he isn't a great dog or won't be the best dog on another day.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Ivan said the next day that he thought the decoy has turned early.
Based on his vantage point and experience I tend to agree with him. Based on the imperfect video I'm more convinced. Personal attacks and comments aren't going to convince me to change my mind.

No judge is gong to cite helper error and not deduct points for a missed long bite unless the error is blatant and he had a clear view of it. Neither happened in this case.


----------



## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> Ivan said the next day that he thought the decoy has turned early.
> Based on his vantage point and experience I tend to agree with him. Based on the imperfect video I'm more convinced. Personal attacks and comments aren't going to convince me to change my mind.
> 
> No judge is gong to cite helper error and not deduct points for a missed long bite unless the error is blatant and he had a clear view of it. Neither happened in this case.


Wait......what?? :-k

You think Ivan, who was all the way down at the end of the field, had a better vantage point than the judge was only a few feet from the dog and helper? The judge positions himself specifically so he will have a good view. So it wasn't blatant enough for a judge but it was clear as a bell to Ivan all the way down the field. That just doesn't make sense to me, but whatever, that's fine.


----------



## Mario Fernandez

Ivan also said he messed up on some of some handling in protection.


----------



## Mario Fernandez

I must say this has been a very good read , the event is almost a month old and people are still debating..it is mild compared to the PDB...Thank you all for providing a good chuckle for a tough work week..


----------



## Joby Becker

susan tuck said:


> Wait......what?? :-k
> 
> You think Ivan, who was all the way down at the end of the field, had a better vantage point than the judge was only a few feet from the dog and helper? The judge positions himself specifically so he will have a good view. So it wasn't blatant enough for a judge but it was clear as a bell to Ivan all the way down the field. That just doesn't make sense to me, but whatever, that's fine.


the judge is not as good at intrepreting things as Ivan is...that's all...


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler

I was thinking along the same lines, Mario! I've been amused. In fact, when I read what Steve wrote, my first (strange) thought was, Oh, crap, somebody learned somethin.

Laura


----------



## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> Wait......what?? :-k
> 
> You think Ivan, who was all the way down at the end of the field, had a better vantage point than the judge was only a few feet from the dog and helper? The judge positions himself specifically so he will have a good view. So it wasn't blatant enough for a judge but it was clear as a bell to Ivan all the way down the field. That just doesn't make sense to me, but whatever, that's fine.



Better vantage point, better angle, not trying to keep track of both dog and helper, whatever? That's why more sports go to instant replay. Video doesn't lie. You just need a clear view.
Maybe the Shell Shots video will settle the argument when it is made available?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Mario Fernandez said:


> Ivan also said he messed up on some of some handling in protection.


Mario

A competitor who recognizes and takes responsibility for his own mistakes? Wonder what would happen if that idea ever caught on?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> the judge is not as good at intrepreting things as Ivan is...that's all...


+1


----------



## Mario Fernandez

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mario
> 
> A competitor who recognizes and takes responsibility for his own mistakes? Wonder what would happen if that idea ever caught on?



It could be black and white for all to see and still would fall to the waist side as people would always be using video, photos and still be arguing on the net to prove their point and what they believe...

With out the Judges critique we don't know.... Possible points loss could of been in the front half and we would not know...


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1


-2


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> -2


+ Infinity


----------



## Dave Colborn

+0 When a poster realizes another poster is posting nothing even close to the truth in the first place. Not that someone isn't agreeing or disagreeing with that poster, but that the poster has a different agenda. IE the OP.

definition...sycophant - servile self-seeking flatterer. 

Is that what this post is about?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

The reason for the thread was stated in the first post in two sentences.


----------



## Dave Colborn

I think you are trying to get free videos from Ivan for your support. 

Looked like the dog popped off from the still pictures where he was biting in one picture, and then wasn't biting anymore in the next. Let the handler and decoy and judge worry about it. It's over.



Thomas Barriano said:


> The reason for the thread was stated in the first post in two sentences.


----------



## Paul R. Konschak

Thomas Barriano said:


> Paul,
> 
> If you'd like to critique this dogs performance? Then please start your own thread and provide a link to a video that doesn't require a membership fee to view. Thanks


Ivan and Ebor's performance is on working dog for premium members. Over half of all the competitor's videos have been posted so far.


----------



## Katie Finlay

I'm still going to ask again, wasn't Ivan disqualified for cheating before? And you trust his opinion over others that were there, why?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Is that true? Oh my. 



Katie Finlay said:


> I'm still going to ask again, wasn't Ivan disqualified for cheating before? And you trust his opinion over others that were there, why?


----------



## Katie Finlay

I'm pretty sure it is, but I don't remember when so don't quote me on it.


----------



## Katie Finlay

I mentioned it the first time to get clarification but got no response.


----------



## Dave Colborn

My "Oh my" was somewhat sarcastic. I do remember a thread about that, but I don't remember if there was any truth to it or not. 

Pardon the unclear sarcasm. 





Katie Finlay said:


> I mentioned it the first time to get clarification but got no response.


----------



## Katie Finlay

Oh! Haha, maybe that's where I remember it.


----------



## Paul R. Konschak

http://www.workingmalinois.org/magazine/2005/12/16/2005-awma-national-championship/


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Katie Finlay said:


> I'm still going to ask again, wasn't Ivan disqualified for cheating before? And you trust his opinion over others that were there, why?


Why do you care and why are you bringing it up here?
Someone whispering in your ear?
I know of two incidents. Once he left a tug in his back pocket (by accident I assume) during tracking and got DQ'd. The other alleged incident he went to check out the tracking fields and got DQ'd. I can see not practicing on the tracking fields but not looking at them at all seems silly. Neither incident is from 1st hand information just what I heard. I hope your curiosity is satisfied. He may also have cued his dog or given some other handler help which is cheating too according to some people


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Paul R. Konschak said:


> http://www.workingmalinois.org/magazine/2005/12/16/2005-awma-national-championship/


Thanks Paul, a costly oversight not exactly what I'd label cheating.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Dave Colborn said:


> I think you are trying to get free videos from Ivan for your support.
> 
> >I've already got all of Ivan's videos and I've never heard of >him giving any away.
> 
> Looked like the dog popped off from the still pictures where he was biting in one picture, and then wasn't biting anymore in the next.
> 
> >I don't see it as popped off. The girl who shot the video and
> >trains with Ivan said Ebor has never missed a long bite. It >looks to me like he only got a partial bite and his own speed
> >and momentum made it impossible to hold on.
> 
> Let the handler and decoy and judge worry about it. It's over.
> 
> >The results are final but what happened is still open to debate
> >and speculation and discussion. No one is being forced to
> >participate are they?


----------



## Nicole Stark

Dave Colborn said:


> +0 When a poster realizes another poster is posting nothing even close to the truth in the first place. Not that someone isn't agreeing or disagreeing with that poster, but that the poster has a different agenda. IE the OP.
> 
> definition...sycophant - servile self-seeking flatterer.
> 
> Is that what this post is about?


Damn Dave, that's deserving of a flag or something special. I don't know what this thread is about. I am not even sure wh.... oh shit, I just remembered we haven't had our weekly crisis so to compensate for that we carry on with this drama. Great. 

I think I'm gonna take off like Forrest Gump and see what kind of wisdom is revealed in my running. Might even have a beard too when I'm done.


----------



## Katie Finlay

Thomas Barriano said:


> Why do you care and why are you bringing it up here?
> Someone whispering in your ear?
> I know of two incidents. Once he left a tug in his back pocket (by accident I assume) during tracking and got DQ'd. The other alleged incident he went to check out the tracking fields and got DQ'd. I can see not practicing on the tracking fields but not looking at them at all seems silly. Neither incident is from 1st hand information just what I heard. I hope your curiosity is satisfied. He may also have cued his dog or given some other handler help which is cheating too according to some people


I care because it's something people should know if they are going to take the sport seriously and I bring it up because my first question wasn't answered and I'm genuinely curious. You're also putting this guy on a huge pedestal despite these weird "mistakes," and can't accept the fact that dog didn't bite and in the eyes of many other experienced people in the sport it's not because of a bad catch.

You're the one that's overly invested in ensuring that it was not the dog's mistake. It's kind of weird.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Thomas Barriano said:


> Thanks Paul, a costly oversight *not exactly what I'd label cheating*.


Unless it was someone competing against Ivan.....

I am happy you have a hero. Everyone needs someone to look up to to get where they need to be. Just don't forget where you are heading while you are so busy looking up... I certainly appreciate the trainers better than I and try and learn from them. Both their mistakes and their successes.

Don't be blind to what you see, Thomas...


----------



## Joby Becker

I seem to remember Thomas going nuts over a post with an Ivan video he showed, where I pointed out a few safety concerns in my mind..seeming to imply that since it was Ivan, that basic safety precautions were not a concern even worth mentioning, even insulted me if I remember correctly...

who cares if the dog never missed a long bite before, lots of dogs do things that they never did before


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Katie Finlay said:


> You're also putting this guy on a huge pedestal despite these weird "mistakes," and can't accept the fact that dog didn't bite and in the eyes of many other experienced people in the sport it's not because of a bad catch.
> 
> You're the one that's overly invested in ensuring that it was not the dog's mistake. It's kind of weird.



Two mistakes in 20 years of competing at the highest level.
That's not what I'd call weird. I bet plenty of other competitors have made more mistakes. They just aren't under the same scrutiny as Ivan. 
Everyone else seems invested in assuring it was the dog and not the decoy.
Where are you getting the dog didn't bite? No one is claiming he didn't bite. He just didn't hold on, all video/screen shots and still photos show that. The question is did he get a fair chance at a grip. Maybe screen shots from the bluray Shell shots video will give a clearer view of what happened?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> I seem to remember Thomas going nuts over a post with an Ivan video he showed, where I pointed out a few safety concerns in my mind..seeming to imply that since it was Ivan, that basic safety precautions were not a concern even worth mentioning, even insulted me if I remember correctly...
> 
> who cares if the dog never missed a long bite before, lots of dogs do things that they never did before


You don't remember correctly. The video was of a kid learning how to decoy being trained by Ivan and a world class decoy and you making an inane comment about safety.

Here's the thread. Most posts admired the kid and him having a chance to work with two first class trainers. You were the only one that saw a safety concern

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/ivan-balabanov-25572/


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas, I was NOT the only one that saw a safety concern, I was the only person that POSTED his opinion that there was a saftey concern on that thread.. there is a difference there.

anyhow, I mentioned it to point out your inability to objectively look at anything seemingly, if it concerns Ivan, that you will go out of your way to argure with people about things that cannot be proven.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Actually, you weren't the only one that posted that opinion.


T


----------



## Dave Colborn

Hero worship... 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv83zqml_rQ


----------



## Austin Porter

Wise words from Patrick Star... lol


----------



## Dave Colborn

I was going to tell Thomas not to mail a lock of hair to Ivan, or to call someone before he did but I thought that would be too offensive. I am working on getting a better filter...Ooops. Sort of backtracked with this post....



Austin Porter said:


> Wise words from Patrick Star... lol


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Dave,

You and Joby are getting plain weird now. Must be from watching too many cartoon shows like Sponge Bob for your inspiration. Recognizing and acknowledging great trainers and situations where one may have missed an opportunity at a Championship through no fault of their dog is NOT Hero Worship. Any chance of getting back on topic?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> anyhow, I mentioned it to point out your inability to objectively look at anything seemingly, if it concerns Ivan, that you will go out of your way to argure with people about things that cannot be proven.



You think < 10 - 20 posts about Ivan out of 6,400 shows that I'm not objective about him? BWAHAHAHAHAHA You're funny Joby


----------



## Dave Colborn

sorry. I thought you'd see I was on topic. I don't agree with you, and I gave a reason why I think you see things the way you do. I used a definition of sycophant to help frame where I think you are coming from, and Sponge Bob to pull you back from your misguided ways. I also followed up with what I think your next step might be, sending him hair, as part of your hero worship/stalking. 

So in fact, I have been quite on topic, and agree with pictures that show the dog biting and popping off the long bite, vs. someone who has never seen the dog pop off a long bite in training. Shit happens.

I assume weird as defined by you means we are in disagreement.

Used in a sentence it might look like this. _Thomas thought it weird no one saw his point of view as he saw it. Weird to the point of him taking another look and changing his opinion.- www.daveseventhcolligiatedictionary.com_



Thomas Barriano said:


> Dave,
> 
> You and Joby are getting plain weird now. Must be from watching too many cartoon shows like Sponge Bob for your inspiration. Recognizing and acknowledging great trainers and situations where one may have missed an opportunity at a Championship through no fault of their dog is NOT Hero Worship. Any chance of getting back on topic?


----------



## Stacey Beller

What sucks about this entire thread is that Ivan and Marcus have discussed it themselves. They dealt with thier end of it Man to Man. Or Facebook to Facebook whatever you want to call it.

All the Monday morning quarterbacking in the world will not change the outcome. Bringing up crap from 2005 will not change it.

I learned years ago you can learn anything from anyone. Whether they are new at something and show you a different better way to do something or someone who has been at it for a long long time. I bet there are alot of closet hero worshippers on this page. People who talk bad about others and then watch thier videos or watch them work and try to be as good as they are.


----------



## Joby Becker

> The girl who shot the video and trains with Ivan said Ebor has never missed a long bite


quote in its full context, since you snagged only one fact tout of it, one that would appear to lend credibitlity to your viewpoint on the subject. Below is what that person actually had to say about this mess of a topic, even says the video was watched with Ivan himself, and that they couldnt tell anything, so are you now better than Ivan himself, at using videos for evidence?



> "I actually was the one to videotape Ivan's protection routine. The spectators were located on the right side of the helper. Marcus swung Ebor left, aka, not possible for the spectators to see exactly what happened. *Did he swing early, or did Ebor miss....who knows.* *Ivan and I watched the video, and from the angle, you couldn't tell.* I have seen Ebor work MANY times. He has never missed a long bite, but I know he comes like a freight train.
> 
> Marcus is an excellent helper...he has a fraction of a second to make a decision about a dog coming down the field. He is only human. He caught dogs safely all weekend. It is the nature of the sport- sometimes there are good days, and sometimes bad ones....the important thing is Ebor was not injured. Ivan has been very nervous about that fact, and as upset as he was about protection, I am sure he is happy that his dog is healthy.* Ivan is my mentor, if you will. I have trained under him many times, and he has been an amazing person in my IPO journey, but I also know that Marcus is only human..IF he made a mistake, it is what it is....IF Ebor missed the bite, it is what it is......
> *


It appears that the person that shot the video, that trains with Ivan, is not convinced that it was a helper mistake, so why are you Thomas?


----------



## Dave Colborn

The way I read this from the first post, it was about Thomas' opinion. I agree with everything else you've said below and will step out barring any comments directed to me, as it is pretty much a waste of time to rehash that I think Thomas is wrong. I've said it, he knows how I feel, and he isn't changing his mind. Thanks for being one more voice of reason in the thread.



Stacey Beller said:


> What sucks about this entire thread is that Ivan and Marcus have discussed it themselves. They dealt with thier end of it Man to Man. Or Facebook to Facebook whatever you want to call it.
> 
> All the Monday morning quarterbacking in the world will not change the outcome. Bringing up crap from 2005 will not change it.
> 
> I learned years ago you can learn anything from anyone. Whether they are new at something and show you a different better way to do something or someone who has been at it for a long long time. I bet there are alot of closet hero worshippers on this page. People who talk bad about others and then watch thier videos or watch them work and try to be as good as they are.


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> It appears that the person that shot the video, that trains with Ivan, is not convinced that it was a helper mistake, so why are you Thomas?


First impressions last. Ivans first impression was the decoy turned early. I also figure if there were so many people trying
to blame the dog, (before there was any video available) that I'd look closely at the video when it was posted. I'm not entirely convinced it was a decoy error but I think it is more likely then not. Besides I'm hoping to get a autographed boxed set of Ivans DVD's and a free two week training vacation to his facility in Florida.


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## Joby Becker

My first impression is that these dots are moving.


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## Thomas Barriano

The dots look still to me (and Ivan?) and I don't have a TV anymore.


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## Paul R. Konschak

Stacey Beller said:


> I learned years ago you can learn anything from anyone. Whether they are new at something and show you a different better way to do something or someone who has been at it for a long long time. I bet there are alot of closet hero worshippers on this page. People who talk bad about others and then watch thier videos or watch them work and try to be as good as they are.


 
You are correct that we can all learn from anyone. We can learn how do something better or how not to do something. Unfortunately this thread was started by asking for other opinions on the video. When other opinions not in line with Thomas's opinion are written, they are then told they are wrong by Thomas. What is the point to ask for other opinions and then to tell the other person with a different opinion that they are wrong? As a club helper I have had the opportunity to work dogs for the last ten years. I have made many mistakes along the way and I try to always do a better job than the previous training day. I am always trying to make the dogs in my club better. I have also had the opportunity to work dogs that come must faster on the long bite than Ebor. As a helper, I am always thinking of the dog's health and I try to catch the dogs in a safe manner. I have had very fast dogs bounce off the sleeve because they did not have the grip pressure to hold on to the sleeve because of the momentum that the speed caused. The handlers never blamed me as the helper. I feel that Ivan is probably the best dog trainer in America. His results speak for him. I hope to be as good a trainer as he is in the future. I do not believe Ivan acted in a sportsmanlike manner in this instance. I feel he would be better off to let his training and his dog speak for him. Talking about the helper on Facebook or any other public forum does not make his score from this event change. Without the helpers in this sport we would not be able to do the protection phase. This kind of reaction about the helper work does not make me want to go and try out to be a national helper. I hope that my dog never misses the long bite in the future but if they do, it will not be the helper's fault. It will be my fault as a trainer. Every trial we pay money and enter, we are asking the judge on that day to judge our training. If we do not agree on what the judge observes on that day, we never have to show under that judge again


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## Mark Sheplak

New video...slow motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCdceYUUyzU&feature=youtu.be


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## Joby Becker

same view....


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> same view....


Same bullshit


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## Thomas Barriano

The slow motion frame by frame video clearly shows Marcus turned early. Which is exactly what Ivan said at the time and the only thing he said.


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## Dave Martin

Can't believe this is still being discussed. Hasn't everyone who was involved acknowledged the turn was too early? The video is clear.. shit happens. 

The guy's obviously a great helper despite one early turn


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## Thomas Barriano

Dave Martin said:


> Can't believe this is still being discussed. Hasn't everyone who was involved acknowledged the turn was too early? The video is clear.. shit happens.
> 
> The guy's obviously a great helper despite one early turn


Dave,

I agree, but no there are still people denying that Marcus turned early and go into defense mode against anyone that says different or looks at the video with an open mind.


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## Christopher Smith

Dave Martin said:


> Hasn't everyone who was involved acknowledged the turn was too early?


No. Not everyone.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> No. Not everyone.


Then they need to look at the latest slow motion video.
It's plain as day and undeniable. Marcus has his back to the camera and end of the sleeve is pointing at Ebor when he is still a foot away (turned early). There is no way that Ebor had a fair chance at a grip. I'm amazed he got his teeth on the sleeve at all :-(


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## Connie Sutherland

Dave Martin said:


> Can't believe this is still being discussed.



Me too. :sad:


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## James Downey

Here I got it from a different angle and much better Video Quality.

You can clearly see that it was bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoUDlCDs1Dc


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## Katie Finlay

James Downey said:


> Here I got it from a different angle and much better Video Quality.
> 
> You can clearly see that it was bullshit.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoUDlCDs1Dc


This is the best post ever.


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## Connie Sutherland

James Downey said:


> Here I got it from a different angle and much better Video Quality. ....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoUDlCDs1Dc




Excellent! =D>


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## Britney Pelletier

Michael Murphy said:


> don't blame the helper blame the sh*t sport. Put a suit on the man for heavens sake. its suppose to test the working ability of dogs, not the ability of a decoy to perfectly present a sleeve. shutzhund/ipo is the show sport ( derived from show dog) of the sporting/working dog world. AKA its a joke thats ruining dog breeds. ](*,)


LMAO! Michael, how many IPO dogs have you titled?

If you think there are not "poor" presentations in suit sports, you really need to get out more.. go to a KNPV trial, every single dog gets jammed.


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