# Terminology Question - civil vs. social



## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Hi, everybody. A quick question. I've heard people talk about "civil" and "social" when describing working dogs. Recently I read where somebody said a dog was social but not civil. I understand what "social" means, but I'm now confused about "civil." Could somebody explain the difference? I assumed they were similar terms, but then I read "social but *not* civil." Based on this sentence, it appears that there is a difference between the two terms? Are they describing the same thing but at different degrees, or are these two terms describing something different?

Thanks in advance!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I have always heard 'civil' used to describe a dog that would fire up on and bite someone threatening without equipment, and/or a dog that spits the sleeve and goes for the helper. Social is, to me, a dog that can be taken out in public without fear that it's going to flip out on a non-threatening person.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Erica, They are like black and white. Social means they are indifferent to most situations, civil means they can and will break BAD with or without stimulation. Someone else may have another way to explain.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Hello Erica,

How ya doing? Yeah, I agree those terms are a bit strange. 

'Civil' usually refers to a dog that wants to bite (and in some cases enjoys) going after the decoy/helper/agitator to get to them and not the equipment. 


Julie


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I guess it comes from "zivil beiissen" in german and translated to civil biting, and has nothing to do with civil servant. I had trouble when I first encountered it.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I guess it comes from "zivil beiissen" in german and translated to civil biting, and has nothing to do with civil servant. I had trouble when I first encountered it.


Oh cool. Thanks Gillian


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I have always been interested in the term 'civil'. I had my last dog evaluated by a sch guy and he said 'he might be civil'. I never did work him, so I dont know for sure, but he was a dog who didnt accept corrections from anyone but me. He did calmly 'grip' a guy who approached me in a not normal way.

Can a dog be civil and handler sensitive and desirous of being obedient? If a dog is not clean with his teeth on the tug or one who does not respect body space (especially in drive) possibly 'civil'? Does Civil have anything to do with defense?

I was told that civil meant 'willing to bite any part of the helper/bad guy'.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Erica, They are like black and white. Social means they are indifferent to most situations, civil means they can and will break BAD with or without stimulation. Someone else may have another way to explain.


 Thats pretty close to how I see it. If I can clarify something....breaking bad w/o stimulation can be construed as sharp. Breaking bad upon command on a person who offers no stimulation might be a better way to put it. Not picking on you at all...seriously.

Not all civil dogs posses fight drive. But all dogs who have fight drive are civil, if that makes any sense.

Or.....no equipment...no problem!!:razz::razz:


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Thats pretty close to how I see it. If I can clarify something....breaking bad w/o stimulation can be construed as sharp. Breaking bad upon command on a person who offers no stimulation might be a better way to put it. Not picking on you at all...seriously.
> 
> Not all civil dogs posses fight drive. But all dogs who have fight drive are civil, if that makes any sense.
> 
> Or.....no equipment...no problem!!:razz::razz:


Hmmm. For a dog, CIVIL is NOT Equal to CIVILIZED. I've been confused for a long time!

Good question Erica.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Excellent responses, everybody!!! I learned something new today! I didn't realize that this is what "civil" meant.

As I was driving home from our obedience class today, the question just popped into my head. As soon as I got home, I had to ask the question.


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I guess it comes from "zivil beiissen" in german and translated to civil biting, and has nothing to do with civil servant. I had trouble when I first encountered it.


That's the way it was explaining to me at our club.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Good post Howard, I agree.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Thats pretty close to how I see it. If I can clarify something....breaking bad w/o stimulation can be construed as sharp. Breaking bad upon command on a person who offers no stimulation might be a better way to put it.


Thats an exact way to put it. And if a dog is sharp, it just means that its always on the edge and can fire up at any time just as Howard said. Have to stay on your toes.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Well, if you folks wouldn't own dogs or working dogs, then you could take your fluffy little friend anyplace...

Shame, Shame, Shame!:-o  ;-)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Okay the difference between a civil dog and a social one...it's like the difference between a pickup and a sports car!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Elcamino, does tht fit?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Elcamino, does tht fit?


:razz::razz:There's always one in the bunch.....:razz::razz:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, lets say you have a dog that is fairly reliable in public. He doesn't have to be everybody's friend and buddy [aloof, not afraid] but he's not going to lunge for a bite either without provocation [threat to himself or his handler]. Can he be social [reliable in public] and civil [some natural sense of protecting himself and/or his owner when genuinely threatened]? Or does civil only have application to the context of the helper and whether the dogs reacts with aggression regardless of whether the helper is wearing equipment [suit, sleeve]?

Terrasita


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, lets say you have a dog that is fairly reliable in public. He doesn't have to be everybody's friend and buddy [aloof, not afraid] but he's not going to lunge for a bite either without provocation [threat to himself or his handler]. Can he be social [reliable in public] and civil [some natural sense of protecting himself and/or his owner when genuinely threatened]? Or does civil only have application to the context of the helper and whether the dogs reacts with aggression regardless of whether the helper is wearing equipment [suit, sleeve]?
> 
> Terrasita


That was basically my question--just said better!!

Can you have social dog who is perfectly ok in 'normal' situations (even completely non-reactive), but when in drive/ramped up will bite what he wants?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Don't confuse being civil with trigger happy aggression. Civil dogs can be, and are social (not every one of course).. otherwise we wouldn't take them to elementary schools. A civil social dog will not just turn on people for the slightest perceived threat. That would be a sharp dog. There's a very big difference between the two. 

Now, a dominant dog will not stand to be challenged. I had a little Czech dog that would eat your lunch if you stared at him too long. he was a master at reading people's body language and he knew what threatening human behavior looked like. He had a great knack for reading people and I never worried about him around kids because he just seemed to know they weren't a threat (he would eat them if I gave the command though)....around adults, I had to watch him because people do stupid things and a serious, dominant, civil dog is nothing to take lightly. As long as people stayed relaxed around him you would never know he was a patrol dog.

I equate civility in a dog to nitrous oxide in a race car. You know its always there when you mash the gas pedal to the floor and trigger the nitrous, but just driving around casually there is no use for it and all is normal. Call it police dog "plus" if you want.:grin:

or....imagine your everyday person...then imagine UFC fighter Randy Couture. Yea, yea thats a better analogy. He can be a loving husband, or your worst nightmare triggered by a mere thought to inflict massive amounts of pain.

Howard


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Howard do you stay awake all night thinking of this stuff? Ohhh it's so good!\\/


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

No, I'm just sick that way. These things just pop into my head sometimes. No effort at all.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> No, I'm just sick that way. These things just pop into my head sometimes. No effort at all.


Ok, that's just scary. ha ha.

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Yes David scary but cool.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

So, I have a dog who IMO has a tempermant problem....she fires at random people...no rhyme or reason as to WHY. She used to target a certain type and I dealt with that fairly well...but she went to staring people down and then lunging. I know that she WOULD bite someone given the chance. I consider her a sharp dog as she fires without warning at random people of any age. 

My question is, would she be considered civil and Sharp or just Sharp??

Courtney


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

So based on people's definitions of civil, do people believe a stable, social, outgoing PUP can also be civil?

I'll grab this definition but there were multiple posts that said something very similar.


> 'Civil' usually refers to a dog that wants to bite (and in some cases enjoys) going after the decoy/helper/agitator to get to them and not the equipment.


So if a 4 (or 5, 6, 8, 10 ??) month old pup will spit out the equipment and go after the helper, does that make them "civil", or does the definition of civil being used need a little more tweaking/clarity?

I'm thinking of a reaction like this pups, I can't actually view the video right now to give an exact time on the time line, but you'll know what I mean when she does it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjQb99Kbtpk This dog did this on a regular basis throughout her puppyhood, she'd happily drop equipment and go after the decoy, and even if they had equipment on when she was sent they better have it out there for her or she'd just nail them somewhere else. 

It fits the definition of civil given, but do people really feel this is "civil"?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I have the same question Kadi about the same dog I had there that day. At 9 weeks he was spitting the toy and looking at the man. We taught him to hold and cary but he is starting to spit again. Another question...who believes a dog can be civil and not nasty?

Has anyone ever seen a dog that likes the fight but enjoys it without getting "angry"? Some dogs get really vocal, spit flying, bouncing all over and pretty much losing their head. My dog doesn't take shit personal, he will get amped up in bitework but once on the bite, he is in like a meditative state, nothing hectic about him. I think if the decoy quit fighting and let him, he would lay down and just keep holding. My dog pacifies himself in the house with his stuffed toy in this manner. He'll only lay down and relax if he has the head of that in his mouth and then he will lay there for hours asleep. Without the stuffed toy, he wont relax. I think he pacifies himself on he field when he has a mouthfull of man too.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Going out on a limb here, since I was criticized earlier for posting anything about my untitled bitch, Deja is a dog who is civil yet (mostly, which I will explain in a sec) safe, if that makes any sense. 

If she is in the car, she's _going_ to fire up on someone who gets within a couple of feet of the vehicle. As long as they aren't close enough to touch it, she's quiet, but if they cross that line, it's a given that she's going to fire up. Doesn't matter whether I'm in the car with her or not, but she has learned that a few people (namely, family members and drive thru operators) are allowed to be near the car and/or reach into it when I'm inside, so she is fine in those situations. When she does fire up, she's not one of those snarling, slobbering Cujo-type monsters, but no one in their right mind is going to stick around when she starts up. She will chill out just as quickly as she fires up.

At home, if she's alone in the house, no one - not even family members/people she knows - is going to get inside. I had my mother go over one evening to let her out because I wasn't going to get home until a few hours later than I usually do, and she would not let my mother in past the kitchen (I had a gate up between the kitchen and living room - Deja was in the living room). My mother called me asking what she should do, and I could tell from the sound of Deja's bark that she was serious, so I told her just to leave. If I had been home, there wouldn't have been so much as a tensed muscle towards my mother. She's also perfectly happy-go-lucky when I take her with me to my mom's house. 

If we are home and bring someone into the house, she's fine with them as long as they are _there_, but if, for example, it's a delivery person and I step out onto the _porch_ instead of inviting them_ in_, she's right there at the door, poised and ready. Sometimes she barks, and sometimes she doesn't, but either way, her body language dares the person to try something. If I were to tell her the person is okay, I could let her out or bring them inside and she'd happily greet them with not so much as a growl. Same thing when she's in the car. She can be literally coming out the window after someone and I can tell her they are okay and bring her out of the car if I want and she's not the least bit aggressive towards them. 

She's civil, yet social out in public - to a point. She's not a butt-wagging, run up to everyone for attention kind of dog, but she will accept attention from other people for a few seconds before she's over it and back at my side. She's not a dog that I let strangers come up and pet (mainly because she's very mouthy and when she puts her mouth on their hand they automatically recoil and say she bit them), but she's also not a dog that I have to worry about firing up on or trying to bite some person simply because they are too close to me, or have a walker or cane, or are on a bike or skateboard, or are running around yelling and screaming. I don't have to muzzle her to take her to the vet's, and I don't have to worry about her around other dogs, either. She's very stable.



On the SchH field, getting to the part about her being mostly safe, she isn't one that you have to present the sleeve to or else she'll grab a leg or whatever, but the helper cannot slip the sleeve until I have ahold of the leash, because she will run around with it for just a second, but then she'll go right back to the helper, drop it at his feet, and 'push' him to move or do something, while keeping him from being able to get the sleeve (sort of like an object guard, I guess! :lol: ). If he's quick enough, he can grab it and tug with her before she spits it out, but he really has to be quick. So while she's a safe dog to _catch_, she's not a dog you can let have the sleeve without the handler having ahold of the leash. She's also sneaky about running a blind. We do what the TD calls 'roll outs,' usually at the end of each session, which is where we take the dog to the center of the field and the helper stands next to the blind and fires the dog up from there. Then we let the dog go and the helper stays on the outside of the blind until the dog is almost there, and then 'makes a break for it' around the blind, usually catching the dog on the other side after the dog runs around the blind after him. Deja waits until the last second, then breaks off to the opposite side of the blind and intercepts the helper as he comes out that side, instead of running around it after him. If the helper is someone who isn't used to her, it can be quite a tap dance as he maneuvers around so she doesn't get him in the butt. Heck, even if they're expecting it and wait absolutely as long as possible, she'll still do it, so he'll have to start off like he's going to run around the blind, and then just turn around and back up so she doesn't jam herself as she launches at him from the other side. Sneaky bitch. :twisted: :lol:



Hmm, going back and reading over this, it might seem a little confusing. If you met her, though, it would all be very clear.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Kadi,

Just my opinion....from the video it appears the dog is guarding his prize, thus he goes after the decoy. Biting in defense of a prey item, and biting civilly are different. One is to drive away the threat then retreat, and the other is with the intent to do lots of damage and stay engaged.

He does go after the decoy a couple of times. But look at the helper...he's moving all herky jerky which triggers the prey drive, and he's wearing full clothing which the pup can construe as part of the equipment he's allowed to bite. The decoy is hefty and looks like he's wearing protective equipment even though he isn't. The pup knows this guy as a play partner that allows him to bite so it's not uncommon to see this.

Just my thoughts. Any others would be welcome as I may have missed something.

Kristen....I think what you're seeing is pure territorial aggression splashed with defense. My guess without seeing the dog.

Howard


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So, [Howard] the civil dog isn't necessarily trigger happy but, once engaged, definitely in it for the "fight" and its ultimate conclusion---death or at least disabling the opponent? Its not a game [equipment focused dog]. I also thought the puppy was prey guarding. In Deja's case if she were more in the civil context, the divider wouldn't have held her?

Terrasita


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Kristen....I think what you're seeing is pure territorial aggression splashed with defense.


True, but she's also very prey driven, and she LOVES to engage. Even in defense, she moves forward, so is it still defense? If the dog is moving forward, that is? She isn't one of these dogs that hackles and shows teeth and spits and snarls, even when the helper intentionally tries to piss her off. 

Her biggest vice is going to be the H&B exercise, I think. When she's that close to the helper, she is soooooooooooooooooooooo intent on the bite that her barking suffers.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> Just my opinion....from the video it appears the dog is guarding his prize, thus he goes after the decoy. Biting in defense of a prey item, and biting civilly are different. One is to drive away the threat then retreat, and the other is with the intent to do lots of damage and stay engaged.


This same pup up until about 8 months old when we finally "fixed" it (depends on who you talk to if we fixed something or broke something LOL but that's another thread) would take the equipment if it was slipped, carry it a short distance away (far enough she thought I couldn't get to her long line in time to stop her), drop it and run back to nail the decoy, without equipment. The video I posted was only the 2nd time she'd been worked, other then me doing some basic puppy tug stuff at home, and she pulled this the first time we ever slipped her the sleeve (the dropping it and going after the helper who wasn't near the equipment).

I don't think this was a civil behavior though, not the right mindset, which was my point. It's "civil" based on the definition that people were giving (a dog that will leave the equipment to go after the man), so I think the definition needs some more tweaking.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So, [Howard] the civil dog isn't necessarily trigger happy but, once engaged, definitely in it for the "fight" and its ultimate conclusion---death or at least disabling the opponent? Its not a game [equipment focused dog]. I also thought the puppy was prey guarding. In Deja's case if she were more in the civil context, the divider wouldn't have held her?
> 
> Terrasita


 Being civil is just one component of the dog's entire being. The dog doesn't abandon all other aspects of his genetic makeup just because he is civil.

Guarding a car won't give you an accurate evaluation of the dog concerning its civil nature. Because the dog is territorial it will act on that aspect of aggression. To initially determine if the dog is civil you have to remove any enviromental situations in which the dog may react in a different drive ie: cars, kennels, equipment, toys, food etc. when testing or discovering for a civil dog.., if that makes any sense. Once it is determined that the dog is civil then you can surmise that once he goes into a territorial aggressive state you can bet it's not just gonna be a show or a "go away" bite.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> So, I have a dog who IMO has a tempermant problem....she fires at random people...no rhyme or reason as to WHY. She used to target a certain type and I dealt with that fairly well...but she went to staring people down and then lunging. I know that she WOULD bite someone given the chance. I consider her a sharp dog as she fires without warning at random people of any age.
> 
> My question is, would she be considered civil and Sharp or just Sharp??
> 
> Courtney


 Sharp. Just because she bites a human does not make her civil in the sense that I think of a civil dog. Sharp dogs are nervy and have a low threat threshold. Their way of dealing with something that makes them uncomfortable is to bite with little warning. Sharp dogs spook me a little because they can be unpredictable (other than KNOWING they are sharp) when I work with them. Their aggression is based on fear so, even though they bite an unprotected person, they are biting for a completely different reason.

Cocker spaniels bite lots of people. They're not civil, they just have other issues that cause them to bite. Same with the sharp dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I believe that a civil dog can very well be social. 
A dog that is clear headed can have any number of definitions/drives associated with it.Civil, sharp (within reason), even dominant. Being clear headed gives the dog the ability to respond instead of just react to stimulus.
Respond is "thought out", for lack of a better description. React just happens.
Also, do not confuse "civil" with (pardon the term) fight drive.
A willingness to bite doesn't mean the dog will stay with the bite/fight. Similar to the Cocker that Howard comments on. It may bite out os stress or sharp shyness but wont stand it's ground when it has an excape route.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Well put, Bob.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I believe that a civil dog can very well be social.
> A dog that is clear headed can have any number of definitions/drives associated with it.Civil, sharp (within reason), even dominant. Being clear headed gives the dog the ability to respond instead of just react to stimulus.
> Respond is "thought out", for lack of a better description. React just happens.
> Also, do not confuse "civil" with (pardon the term) fight drive.
> A willingness to bite doesn't mean the dog will stay with the bite/fight. Similar to the Cocker that Howard comments on. It may bite out os stress or sharp shyness but wont stand it's ground when it has an excape route.


Ok guys then help me out here...

My dog is super clear headed, pretty social but not a hand slut by any means ( just trustworthy in crowds), not the fastest dog to the bite because he is thinking about it, NEVER came off a bite not even as a pup, dog lives for the bite, enjoys the fight, bit the hidden first time out, on the table will bite no equipt, with sloppy helper work has shown he will bite flesh if he can't get the sleeve.

Is this civil, if not what do you call it?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Your dog is biting on the training field, so no, it is not civil. For me, this is one word that if you talk to different people, then you get different answers ALL the time.

Pretty hard to figure out, and just plain useless as well. Knowing what this definition is doesn't help much. : )


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

That's what I was wondering about Jeff. I guess some people would say on the field isn't civil, street bites are but even then, was the street bite a nerve issue/fear, accidental bite or a "real" CIVIL bite? I'm not ready to screw with my dog at home PPD style, to find out if he will bite off the field. He's still young, I want a sport title first and I'd like to not be doing daycare when I go to that level with him. I'd like to think he will bite anywhere anytime but if not, I have the trainers to help make him that way without screwing him up.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Your dog is biting on the training field, so no, it is not civil. For me, this is one word that if you talk to different people, then you get different answers ALL the time.
> 
> Pretty hard to figure out, and just plain useless as well. Knowing what this definition is doesn't help much. : )



I forgot that enviromental influence, good call.

I'ts true that everyone has their own definition in their head which makes it hard to define. Telling someone over the internet that their dog is civil is pretty much impossible without seeing the dog in person.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

So that argument we had when she said "let's be civil", she was sayin' _bite me, and don't touch the equipment?_


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Telling someone over the internet that their dog is civil is pretty much impossible without seeing the dog in person.


I'll add or what is going on in front of the dog. 
A good helper can bring out different reactions at a 30ft. distance with out physically engaging the dog.
Most wouldn't know understand or recognise what was going on if they were watching in person.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> That's what I was wondering about Jeff. I guess some people would say on the field isn't civil, street bites are but even then, was the street bite a nerve issue/fear, accidental bite or a "real" CIVIL bite? I'm not ready to screw with my dog at home PPD style, to find out if he will bite off the field. He's still young, I want a sport title first and I'd like to not be doing daycare when I go to that level with him. I'd like to think he will bite anywhere anytime but if not, I have the trainers to help make him that way without screwing him up.


Most of the guys I work with do a bit of civil training with their sports dogs. Supposedly the civil work helps to make the dog more pronounced in protection; stronger to the helper. We've done quite a few car jackings and home invasion sessions with my schutzhund dog. We've also done bite work in the dark, where the helper is dishing out a few real punches, kicks, body slams and hair pulling during a fight. This is done to build his civil side because on trial day, he'll be barking for real and not barking like he would for a cookie. 

None of the civil training has adversely affected the the dog's social ability nor his schutzhund foundation. You might want to consider trying some of it, especially if you're working on a hidden sleeve already. It sounds like your dog is hard enough to build up to some of this stuff. BTW- my dog isn't what I would call a hard dog, medium maybe.... you can really bang on some of those shepherds though.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with Jeff's assesment of "civil on the training field".
I would still stress that the willingness to bite (civil or otherwise) has nothing to do with a dog's willingness to protect. Maybe a plus but not necessarily an indication.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Most of the guys I work with do a bit of civil training with their sports dogs. Supposedly the civil work helps to make the dog more pronounced in protection; stronger to the helper. We've done quite a few car jackings and home invasion sessions with my schutzhund dog. We've also done bite work in the dark, where the helper is dishing out a few real punches, kicks, body slams and hair pulling during a fight. This is done to build his civil side because on trial day, he'll be barking for real and not barking like he would for a cookie.
> 
> None of the civil training has adversely affected the the dog's social ability nor his schutzhund foundation. You might want to consider trying some of it, especially if you're working on a hidden sleeve already. It sounds like your dog is hard enough to build up to some of this stuff. BTW- my dog isn't what I would call a hard dog, medium maybe.... you can really bang on some of those shepherds though.


Chris all of the above has already been done with my dog but only at training, I'm talking about having someone come into my home or meet us out in public where we don't "train" for this stuff. I want to know if he will perform OFF the field as well as he does on it. He has been worked in civil, touched a little defense and put on the table, stalked and so forth.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> Sharp. Just because she bites a human does not make her civil in the sense that I think of a civil dog. Sharp dogs are nervy and have a low threat threshold. Their way of dealing with something that makes them uncomfortable is to bite with little warning. Sharp dogs spook me a little because they can be unpredictable (other than KNOWING they are sharp) when I work with them. Their aggression is based on fear so, even though they bite an unprotected person, they are biting for a completely different reason.
> 
> Cocker spaniels bite lots of people. They're not civil, they just have other issues that cause them to bite. Same with the sharp dog.



I have been debating on whether or not to Euth her..I finally madfe the decision to euth but am waiting till after winter. Howard, you said it perfectly as that is my problem with her....I have NO warning anymore with her...she used to bark at people but now stares them down and lunges with no warning. 

I'd say that she is a VERY SHARP dog with NO threat threshold at all. I LOVE her to death but man oh man the liability that they are owning them. 

Courtney


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Courtney,

I'm really sorry to hear that. Hell of a thing to think about on Christmas. My heart goes out to you. Doing what you're considering is never an easy thing.

Howard


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'll add or what is going on in front of the dog.
> A good helper can bring out different reactions at a 30ft. distance with out physically engaging the dog.
> Most wouldn't know understand or recognise what was going on if they were watching in person.


 When I test a dog I start at about 75-100 ft away. By the time I get close to him I already have a pretty good feel for what he's about. Getting certain reactions from that distance will disqualify a dog for me. Signs of aggression from a distant helper does not indicate that the dog is civil.

So, you are right...to some it may appear so, but to the person who knows what they're looking at it is something else entirely different.

Howard


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, Merry Christmas.

Quote: A good helper can bring out different reactions at a 30ft. distance with out physically engaging the dog.

This is were I go the other way. For me as dog IS civil, or is not. There is no bringing out, the dog will bite you, off the field. on the field. Once people start talking about a helper bringing something out, it is not civil anymore, just something the dog learned.

I don't like the nervy version of civil, I actually have found that one good beating for acting stupid, and you can make it go away.

I have also found that most people that say their dog is civil are full of shit.

I think that is why I don't like the word.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Most of the guys I work with do a bit of civil training with their sports dogs. Supposedly the civil work helps to make the dog more pronounced in protection; stronger to the helper. We've done quite a few car jackings and home invasion sessions with my schutzhund dog. We've also done bite work in the dark, where the helper is dishing out a few real punches, kicks, body slams and hair pulling during a fight. This is done to build his civil side because on trial day, he'll be barking for real and not barking like he would for a cookie.

For me, civil training is for the insecure. this is where the "for real" crap starts to irritate as well. It is all fine and good to wack on a dog and say Oh look, he can take it. Look at the situation, the same guy he always works on pushes him a bit harder. Doesn't mean shit, sorry. Trial day is trial day, and it is always real. Dogs barking in a blind is a form of displacement behavior that WE HAVE ASKED for. It is all for the cookie, unless you are paying drunky the clown a case of bourbon to take a shot from your dog.

How unGodly stupid do people think a dog is, that he is gonna be "for real" in a trial ???? I think the big arm is gonna give him a clue, I think the trial field with all the blinds is gonna give him a clue. LOL

C'mon, REALLLY ?? REALLY ??? :smile:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I want to know if he will perform OFF the field as well as he does on it

He is not protecting you on the field. Sorry, but don't look at it that way ever. And if you have doubts now wether he will bite on command off the field, then just know that he is not gonna do it. Stay out of those situations. Don't have that mindset.

Quote:I would still stress that the willingness to bite (civil or otherwise) has nothing to do with a dog's willingness to protect. Maybe a plus but not necessarily an indication.

THIS is what you look for.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff, I actually agree with you on all three of your last posts. Gotta be a record for me..Merry Christmas


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have aloways had a problem digesting protection terminology for sure. I always took it as "civil was being totally "uncivilized" and more than willing to bite. On the other hand when they go after someone it is called "defensive" even though he is the aggressor and is being totally offensive. Makes no sense at all.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Defense is a fear based drive, but the types of dogs we breed are fear forward.

Take a Golden Retreiver that isn't screwed up, when the dog shows a fear response it goes passive. My neighbor had one, and that dog would not fight back when a dog went after him. He just stood there. 

Others take flight.

The fear forward dog will aggress to make the threat go away. Tecniquely (cannot spell) our dogs are herders and this would be encouraged way back when when threatened by other predators, or livestock not wanting to go where they are supposed to.

There you are Howard, that should make 4. You know it is way more than that. LOL


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I actually agree with Jeffs last few posts too. I know it probably irritates ya Jeff that I want to test my dog in Personal Protection, since you seem to detest the theory. I'm one of those people that never assumes my dog will do anything well, until we do it at least once. I'm not stupid enough to say if someone broke in, that he would remove their face from them but he might, we just don't know for sure. As to if my dog is protecting me or not...I don't feel my dog is doing it for me but for himself, he does the timing and OB stuff for me, so that I will let him bite, which is what he wants. 

Jeff Oehlsen quote"And if you have doubts now wether he will bite on command off the field, then just know that he is not gonna do it. Stay out of those situations. Don't have that mindset." 

Like I said before, I always doubt, until I see it happen. I doubted how he would handle the carjacking, if he's bite the hidden, how he would react to the attack from behind, each new thing we do I worry about until it's tested and proven. Now my TD, he has never been worried, I's sure he sees more/reads the dog better than I do but that still does nothing for my own feelings until I see it turn out in the flesh. I try to keep it real and I understand our dogs are living breathing beings with good and bad days, highs and lows, strengths and weaknesses. 

Jeff Oehlsen"This is were I go the other way. For me as dog IS civil, or is not. There is no bringing out, the dog will bite you, off the field. on the field. Once people start talking about a helper bringing something out, it is not civil anymore, just something the dog learned.

I don't like the nervy version of civil, I actually have found that one good beating for acting stupid, and you can make it go away.

I have also found that most people that say their dog is civil are full of shit."

True Jeff but how do you know it's ther eif you don't tap into that? I have to go on what my TD gets out of the dog as I'm not for using school kids at the park.

LOL seen that.

Seen this too, I don't wanna be that person. That's why I'm asking.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

School me...how can defense be fear based? Fear may be false evidense seeming real, but not fear. Defense in wrestling isn't fear, it's couter measures protecting a postion or points. If that is the case, everyone is in fear 24/7. :-k


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> School me...how can defense be fear based? Fear may be false evidense seeming real, but not fear. Defense in wrestling isn't fear, it's couter measures protecting a postion or points. If that is the case, everyone is in fear 24/7. :-k



I'm afraid to answer that Howard. I'm still wondering if I should allow my friends to kick and punch my dog for fun. :-k


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> School me...how can defense be fear based? Fear may be false evidense seeming real, but not fear. ...


I thought that defense (in whatever form, either the forward that Jeff refers to or other forms like avoidance) was always based on fear (or anxiety, just a different level of fear). Always.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: True Jeff but how do you know it's ther eif you don't tap into that? I have to go on what my TD gets out of the dog as I'm not for using school kids at the park.

Just because a dog is civil, doesn't mean he will maul children and adults. That is why I do not like how this term has been used to describe nervy junker dogs. Also, at least for me, you do not have to tap into it. It is there.

Quote: Defense in wrestling isn't fear, it's couter measures protecting a postion or points

Dogs are not people, and wrestlers are not dogs. There is no correlation between what a dog does and what a wrestler is doing mentally.

Quote: 
I'm afraid to answer that Howard. I'm still wondering if I should allow my friends to kick and punch my dog for fun. 

That is all up to you. If your dog takes it, he is not civil. LOL


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There you are Howard, that should make 4. You know it is way more than that. LOL


 Do I have to admit it publicly?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> School me...how can defense be fear based? Fear may be false evidense seeming real, but not fear. Defense in wrestling isn't fear, it's couter measures protecting a postion or points. If that is the case, everyone is in fear 24/7. :-k



It may start out that way, but through training and experience the fear can be overcome. Not all wrestlers are fearless. Most get over the fear or jitters, some don't. Caution can be based in fear somewhat. Some people, and dogs are more cautious than others. Defense isn't always a bad thing as long as it is balanced in the dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Do I have to admit it publicly?

I find that with my personality flaws, people would prefer to see me wrong most of the time.

Too bad it doesn't happen. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Then if defense is fear based, is prey HUNGER based? :-k 
Flaws??? Not...character yes! 
From the "social" center of the universe...\\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Prey is movement. 

Flaws, permanent.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Defense is a fear based drive, but the types of dogs we breed are fear forward.
> 
> Take a Golden Retreiver that isn't screwed up, when the dog shows a fear response it goes passive. My neighbor had one, and that dog would not fight back when a dog went after him. He just stood there.
> 
> ...


Thank you Jeff. What confuses me is that I am told my dogs are in defense when fighting hogs. I say they are not. Those poor hogs were minding their own business just peacefully grazing without a care in the world. The dogs on the other hand have a sole purpose to seek and destroy.How can that be construed as defense when the defending party is the hog. It isn't even a territorial thing.

After reading this thread, I have a definitition for civil and social. Social...aggression is fear based so the results are undependable as in maybe he will bite. Civil....aggression is not fear based but controlled and you stick yo butt out there you are goin to lose it because the dog isn't afraid of shit!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Drives is a shitty term, and the more you try and explain them, the murkier it gets. So, officially the terminology we use is not quantitive. I read that somewhere on leerburg in a post from Kevin Sheldahl, and it made a lot of sense to me, as the more I try and explain these dang things the harder it gets. The initial part makes sense, but then you have to go into thresholds and bla bla bla and wow in the end you wonder if you are making any sense.

I had a guy from France once, when I started in on this drive or that, just look at me and say the dog works, or he doesn't. Thinking about all this stuff is silly. Get a dog that does the work, and stop trying to explain it, just train the dog.

However, it is hard when you are on a forum such as this, where terminology comes from entirely different points of view, and much of it is just repeated, not really looked at. Getting on the same page is important if you are to discuss training, or problems.

Add in the different breeds and the different ways that those breeds look at everything, and it becomes messy without some idea of what a threshold means, or at least the basic terms.

Prey drive is one of the terms that has always driven me shithouse. I know a lot of dogs that will not chase a ball, but will go after rabbits squirrels, **** all day long. Is this where hunt drive becomes so important ???

I stopped thinking about it years ago, as it made me nuts. Now I think that the dog has hunt drive, and not much prey......as I see it, yet the drive SHOULD be the same, until you try and get the dog to chase a tug.

I have to stop.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Prey drive is related to hunting drive and more often than not ends up in killing the prey. It's to be found in nearly every dog and movement awakens this drive like Jeff said. It's much easier to call a dog off a cat that is sitting still than one that flees under his nose. 
Young dogs that are worked in defence drive can often become stressed. A dog that learns to challenge the decoy successfully with aggression would not be acting out of fear in my less than humble opinion:|


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Drives is a shitty term, and the more you try and explain them, the murkier it gets. So, officially the terminology we use is not quantitive. I read that somewhere on leerburg in a post from Kevin Sheldahl, and it made a lot of sense to me, as the more I try and explain these dang things the harder it gets. The initial part makes sense, but then you have to go into thresholds and bla bla bla and wow in the end you wonder if you are making any sense.
> 
> I had a guy from France once, when I started in on this drive or that, just look at me and say the dog works, or he doesn't. Thinking about all this stuff is silly. Get a dog that does the work, and stop trying to explain it, just train the dog.
> 
> ...


I am with ya here Jeff. If that dog don't hunt....he don't hunt. Not much more to say about it. I think many feel if they can understand what or why it is broke, they can fix it. To me, a dog is not like a car that has a flat. You change the flat and that is that. It is more like a window. If it has a crack, it is always going to have a crack and the only real way to fix it is to replace it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: . A dog that learns to challenge the decoy successfully with aggression would not be acting out of fear in my less than humble opinion

I think the problem with all of this is that maybe people are looking at a dog that is past the initial stages of work. If you look at initial defense work, the challenge GENERALLY comes from fear,(occasionally dominance, but rarely) the dog shows a threat display and the helper retreats. IMO this raises the defense threshold, and teaches the dog about the work. THe dog has figured out that I make this face, and lunge forward, and I win. So the consequences of the decoy making a threat are minimal, and the dog stops taking this seriously. Dogs that do take it seriously, are what I consider a sharp dog, or that thin razors edge towards nervy, yet not.

Many times I have seen dogs display fear while I was working them, but with the initial training, and the quality of the dog, they wait it out, as experience has taught them that the helper/decoy is BS. When a dog works a new person, there can be initially defense reactions or a rise in intensity. None of this is bad, although again, we have to go back to the quality of the dog.

I have seen many dogs that were willing to accept pressure from person "A" but person "B" could apply the same pressure and the dog would go into avoidance. 

For me, because avoidance and defense are so closely linked, I say that it is a fear based drive.....initially, although the dog learns through the work that if he hangs on, he will be successful. When the dog cannot get past that, we call him a shitter.

Unfortunatly, these are generalizations, and many people do not, or cannot read a dog for shit. The dog is not helping, as he does not run off and show fear, but goes forward. When I am in front of a dog, I know what is going on. This is my experience from working many dogs.

It is seen in the quality of the bite, based on breed. Some dogs show it in shallow grips, which I consider a genetic thing, some just do not bite that hard, some initially chatter, or typwriter, but then learn to settle, maybe not. These are all reasons I see it as fear based.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

"Many times I have seen dogs display fear while I was working them, but with the initial training, and the quality of the dog, they wait it out, as experience has taught them that the helper/decoy is BS. When a dog works a new person, there can be initially defense reactions or a rise in intensity. None of this is bad, although again, we have to go back to the quality of the dog."

See this is what I am trying to figure out...we had a visiting helper about a month or so ago, my dog came out like a mad man, different bark different dog and I was stoked but cautious that he would prove to be a one hit wonder and it was just the knew guy. Next day we bring my dog out again, my TD worked him not the new guy, same explosive behaviour, teeth bared, deep bark, he isn't screwing around. I think, oh his hormones kicked in or something. A week or 2 of this kinda work and we are back to being kinda flat. What is that? He always does the work but not with that intensity. I don't get why some dogs always have that intenseness about them no matter how many times they do the same crap? 

My dog has been worked by about 15 differnt helpers from differnt backgrounds and sports, this was the first time I have ever seen such a difference in his work because of it. I know it wasn't the guy, he is a newer decoy, actually there to learn better skills for his own club dogs, he made some sloppy errors with his sleeve (leaned over the dog trying to make a miss and my dog almost had his chest and did get his suspenders) but didn't put too much on the dog, he was actually told how to work him before he started. So do dogs just get hormonal or a bug in their ass? It had to be the dog right, since he worked that way for over a week with different helpers, not just this 1 helper? I'm just seeing differences here and there still in my dog that has me scratching my head. Few weeks ago a club member who hasn't been out in awhile met us in another town on a new field to work dogs. My dog wasn't even let out yet and he lit up on the guy in the back of my truck from the crate. ( This isn't my dog, he doesn't light up in the crate), he's quiet and sleeps in there until I let him out for his session. 

I'm seeing a more serious side to him and don't know what to call it. Is he becoming sharper, more civil or just maturing?

Oh and the decoys are telling me his grips are much harder also since this change in attitude. He has actually made 2 of them bleed through the suit and gauntlets, is that normal?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You are not saying how old the dog is, so that would help. There are changes around two and four.

The new helper did things differently and your dog reacted to it more defensively, as far as I can tell from what you have written. Also, he was new.

Remember that the dog is rewarded with the bite, and the behavior and the mood of the dog is rewarded as well. Your TD is not so exciting maybe, or looks for different things before rewarding. This is where I see a lot of people do poorly, they reward randomly, and it shows in the dog. Not to say that this is the problem, could just have been the new guy, and that carried over for a while.

There are too many variables, and I would actually have to see the work of both helpers to see what is going on.

I noticed that you had a girl doing the work, and quite honestly, they do not bring out the best in a dog, they just cannot do it. Sure, there are things that they can do, but they rarely impress a decent dog, and there can be a flatness to the work.

Helpers have to be on the same page, and this is why using green decoys is usually discouraged. However, in this day and age, we do not always have the luxury of experienced decoys.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

2 years 3 months. My TD is feeling his age I think and passing the buck to the younger crew. If they don't get what he is saying, he will then "show" them how it needs to be done. It doesn't help that they want to draw straws or play last man to show up, has to work my dog. I was told by a couple people when my dog was a pup, it would get harder to find peopel willing to take bites. I'm seeing that now. They used to give me shit when I would miss training, now they moan and grown when we show up. :-({|=


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Defence is what happens in a fight or flight situation. If fear is the dominant "emotion/drive the the dog is outta there at the first opening. If fight is dominant then it's all forward.
I've seen many "encounters" with terriers and critters. The ones that stay in the game are definately not doing so out of a fear base.
I might add that some of the softest dogs I've had (towards dogs or people) were some dern fine "stayers".
Way to many terms/drives/combinations thereof today. 
Can the dog do the job or not!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: They used to give me shit when I would miss training, now they moan and grown when we show up

If they could ever figure how to target a dog correctly, and place the dog on the shoulder, and not on the stupid arm................try that with them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Bob, terriers do not count, there is something really wrong with those dogs.

The difference in what you see is one of the reasons to discuss things. I am always right, LOL but there is a possibility that you are right, with the dogs you have seen. (probably not : P )

Like I said before it just get murkier and murkier the more you think in terms of drive.

There is a good thesis for a PHD candidate.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

QUOTE
When I am in front of a dog, I know what is going on. This is my experience from working many dogs.
UNQUOTE

This is why I used to watch all the dogs in our group with our last helper. He'd describe them afterwards if we were interested. Unfortunately, he left and it's difficult to find someone of his quality. Not impossible, but difficult as a lot of the helpers are good for trials but not necessarily for developing the pup through to dog. He'd sometimes get hold of the strong ones who were dirty with his bare hands but without taking the substance from them. They stayed strong but worked cleanly. Hard to put in writing.

I know a number of helpers and the ones that are really good have strong personalities, i.e. they don't brook any nonsense from the handlers either. Sorry, off-track again


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I know a number of helpers and the ones that are really good have strong personalities, i.e. they don't brook any nonsense from the handlers either

HA, here everyone knows how to be a decoy/helper. Just buy a suit or a sleeve. LOL

Lots of "barely used" suits around. : )


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I did a great job of working in prey this morning, left a movement in the tank! :---) :smile:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: They used to give me shit when I would miss training, now they moan and grown when we show up
> 
> If they could ever figure how to target a dog correctly, and place the dog on the shoulder, and not on the stupid arm................try that with them.


LOL cute Jeff, I believe my TD knows what he's doing. However the dog bites slightly different areas depending on the excersize. In the car he grabs just below the elbow and full frontal is right in the armpit, you can't get higher up than that! He tends to go center mass but doesn't want just suit in his mouth, he likes to feel body parts when he bites down, non of those sissy frontal bites we see so much in Ring.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:He tends to go center mass but doesn't want just suit in his mouth, he likes to feel body parts when he bites down, non of those sissy frontal bites we see so much in Ring.

I really doubt that. Dogs go to whatever moved last for the most part. I would guess that your decoys sold you a line of BS so they didn't have to catch a dog that centers because they can't catch them right.

I watched your dog work, I did not see any huge desire to hurt, just fill his mouth. Remember, he has to catch those FR decoys, and going center would be the ticket to success there.

You should be focusing on doing what he wants to do naturally, not artificially making him go to the easier catch.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Well he seems to come in center mass from where I'm standing and goes slightly right to the left armpit, sometimes when the decoy presents he will get bicept, and a few times I have seen him get the pec, can't recall if we pulled him off and had him rebite or if he moved over to the pit. As I recall this is pretty much where he went from the get go when we moved him off the sleeve. I'm still curious where he will go on a flee. I suspect the same spot, just the back of the armpit.

Maybe not a huge desire to hurt, as I said, he's not a nasty dog. He does want a full mouth for sure but I think he does get off hurting the decoys, he puts the digs to them when they are already hurting. My dogs allot like me, not real emotional, noisey or flamboyant, we just focus on getting it done, pretty be damned. I have a stinking suspicion your opinion of him might change if you worked him Jeff. But no matter, I like my dog the way he is, that's all that matters.


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