# Green owner with a green Dutch Shepherd



## Matthew Schaefer (May 25, 2009)

Hello,

I have really enjoyed searching through this forum and have really learned a lot. I have a number of questions and would appreciate any advice, criticism, or direct orders from people with more knowledge and experience than I have. I am here to learn and am eager for input. I don't care if I am ignorant, I just want to get things right, though realize I will make mistakes on the way with my first Dutchie.
I purchased a female Dutch Shepherd puppy this week. She was born on February 1st, 2009. I debated for about a week and a half between selecting this puppy or one of her littermates. The other littermate had been worked with by the breeder and had many fine qualities, but I eventually decided to purchase a green dog. I felt that I would have a greater potential bonding with this dog and starting from scratch. Her sister displayed more drive, but I attributed this to her familiarity with the "equipment." The one I selected did have some drive and just appeared less experienced. Before I purchased the puppy, I had visited the breeder twice and spent a few hours watching the parents, talking with the breeder, and evaluating the puppies based on what I had learned from talking with other breeders and from reading this website. I'm now concerned that I purchased this puppy too late in the game as she is already four months old. Am I incorrect?
I am hoping to do some personal protection work with this dog in the future, but want to make sure she is up for it. I am not new to basic dog training, but am new to this breed and considerable myself quite ignorant when it comes to serious training. I previously had an American Pit Bull Terrier(died in April of this year), who knew a myriad of verbal and visual commands, so my experience with training comes from my life with him. My limited experience may not contribute much to the training and development of my new girl. 
I'm presently trying to evaluate if I have reasonable expectations for my new dog. I have a few concerns as to whether she is cut out for what I want to do in the future. I admit that I probably know nothing. Anyway, I brought her home on Wednesday night and I believe she is adjust fairly well. She does seem skittish and fearful of some things and I'm hoping that she is just acclimating to a new situation. When spooked by something new, my neighbor, for instance, she will occasionally dart back to the basement door, which leads to her crate. She will come out if I call her. At other times, she will run towards the noise, invesigate, and bark. What is typical behavior for a Dutch puppy at her age? I may be comparing her to my pit bull, who often recklessly plunged after something of interest when he was young (or thought he was still young).
I have only taken her on three walks and she is generally apprehensive. Am I pushing her too hard too quickly by taking her on walks? When we approach people she generally backs away and will sit or hang back. She has not been on a leash much prior to me owning her, perhaps this has something to do with it. Sometimes when she is on the leash, she will pull at the front, especially when we are nearing our house. During most of the walk, however, it seems that I am in front, coaxing her to come along with me. I do not want to drag her. When she is heeling or in front of me I reassure her with my words and excited voice. I am just used to a pit bull that I had to have heel at my side from day one. 
I'm concerned that my dog doesn't have much confidence or drive. Perhaps it is the sudden stress of coming to my home after spending four months elsewhere. I'm spoken gently to her and tried to be her playmate, building confidence in our relationship. She will eagerly chase objects that are thrown, play with a rag or towel(though can lose interest it seems after a bit) , and will eagerly pick up a game of tug with me most of the time. Some times she loses interest or seems to want to play with me more than pulling and tugging on things. I hope that I simply have to build her drive and do not possess a fearful dog. Is some of this apprehension typical? I know this breed can be standoffish, but is this something to be concerned about?
Potty-training is going okay, she seems to pee immediately when she is out the door. She also seems to pee upon initially coming out of the crate and seems somewhat nervous. I'm hoping this will be an ongoing conversation as I probably have other questions. I'd appreciated any insight you all may have. I'm sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give as much information as possible.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I am just curious, where did she come from? What kennel and what bloodlines?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

same q as Mike, we can maybe tell more about her character/behaviours if we know the bloodline.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How did you get her to wear that hat ??


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

He writes an "ellenlange" post and all you can sy is "where did you get that hat?"

Mensch Oehlsen - have you no respect????

Now, I'm going to read what he said, regardless of where it came from!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I quite honestly don't care where she came from. Are your expectations getting in the way of what you are seeing? Ok, As I understand, she is 16 months old. At this stage the pup should be indicating what she is capable of.

I don't think the fact that the pup was 4 month's old is too late - just be aware that a 4 month old pup can be quite independent and in the need of control and guidance.

I'll be quite honest. Sport handlers wait to see what comes - PPD handlers are frightened the dog couldn't bring to the table what it should.

This isn't something that can be sorted out over the net, in my mind. Maybe some can help you but find a club in the vicinity and show the pup to someone competent.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Calculation mistake!!

She's 4 months old of course!!!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This poor guy. One of his first posts, and it is actually dog related. It seems like it could turn out to be interesting and he gets a real bad hat joke and someone who can’t do basic math telling him to go to a club. At least Mike and Selena tried to head in the right direction. And now I had to step in (the guy who can’t spell) to tell you two to grow up and get a calculator.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

what have you done to socialize the pup?

What was the breeder's opinion of the pup?

how do you play with the pup now?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matthew, would you like me to convert your images to links (to the images) so your post can be read without scrolling right? The wide images are widening your text to require scrolling back and forth on many screens.




Edit to add: Never mind. We have reached Page 2, so the issue is gone, unless you want to fix the O.P.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

From what I read, sounds like her nerve is weak, and too defensive, not a good candidate for a working dog, might want to send her back now before you are too attach to her, you will have a dog for a long time, get one that has strong nerve like your pit, and more drive to bite rags and chase after stuff and less defensive.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The whole hat thing was me avoiding telling this guy to think about taking the dog back to where he got it.


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## Matthew Schaefer (May 25, 2009)

Good evening,

Thank you for all of your feedback. I really appreciate that you took the time to read what I wrote and offer your insights. Connie, I posted my pictures via Photobucket, perhaps I'll just add the link next time. I'm hoping I will be posting more, but time will tell with my situation.
I have had some progress, but am still not sure about things. I have an appointment at Tom Rose's facility on Wednesday afternoon to evaluate her. I will also be contacting local clubs and the breeder. Both parents are employed in police work, dad is a working German import. I'll be obtaining the full pedigree shortly. I originally was interested in some Belgian Malinois puppies, but stumbled upon these Dutch Shepherd puppies and was impressed. I really had a difficult time deciding between the pup I brought home and the pup I left behind. The pup I left behind really had great drive, but thought I would rather work with a green dog than one the breeder had worked with. Because I know nothing, I think this was probably a stupid decision. She does not bite or take to the rag like her sister does, but I thought she would with time as she displayed well at the breeder(though, once again, not like her sister). I now understand why good females are hard to come by ( I have heard this from a few breeders).
She has been going after everything in my yard today, i.e. shoe laces, the rag, an old towel, a Kong, a brown paper bag, toys, and a cheap stuffed animal I purchased. I took her to a few stores today where she met a few dogs. She was initially apprehensive and had her tail between her legs. After meeting the dogs, however, she walked around the store like she owned the place and was unafraid of people or dogs. Her initial hesitations, which I ignored, did bother me. She initially was nervous about a Bichon Frise. This annoyed me.
We went out on a walk tonight and she was doing quite well. She walked by my side when we approached people and did not show the fear she displayed before. We were nearing home when two neighbor dogs started raising a ruckus and my dog wanted to get out of there. She had her tail between her legs and was trying to run up someone else's driveway. I ignored it and kept going. I was disappoined in her behavior as she had previously been charging around our yard, tearing things up, and confidently running up to my neighbors. She has come out of her nervous behavior somewhat, but does enough things that make me question her.
I admit that I am taking to her. She is very affectionate and sweet with my wife and young daughter. One of the main reasons I was interested in the Malinois or Dutch Shepherd was to protect my wife and family when I am not home or when they are running, when we are on our acreage or vacation cottage, and to accompany me in some of my work. I don't know if a nervous or scared dog will respond accordingly should someone threaten my family. I don't want the dog to run and, from what I have observed and from what you have told me, I suspect she would. I'm hoping that she will be naturally defensive of my family, but will she rise to the occasion if tested? I have my serious doubts. Ultimately, if those purposes are my criteria for the dog, I will take her back. I don't think I want a pet Dutch Shepherd that will run or be insecure when push comes to shove. I would not have purchased this breed just to have a nice looking dog. If a "pet quality" dog could get the job done, then I could probably live with that. Yet I'm afraid this dog may not be up to expectations. We'll find out on Wednesday. Overall, I am rather disappointed in myself and hoping that things turn around with this dog. I just don't want to make more mistakes than I have already made.


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Any updates?
Toran


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## Matthew Schaefer (May 25, 2009)

I am glad to see this site is now operational. I have been meaning to post an update for quite some time becasue I have very good news. As of my last post, I was very concerned about this puppy. On June 17th, I was able to meet with a trainer who was recommended to me in order to have my dog evaluated. Although she was a little nervous at first, she came around and was interested in meeting other people and dogs. She went crazy when presented with a rag. After talking with the trainer, seeing him in action, and watching a few other dogs, I quickly realized how many things I was doing wrong. I was probably pushing too hard and expecting too much. I am new and ignorant. I have learned a lot the past month from connections I have made and people I have been referred to. The archives on this forum have been very helpful.

Per the trainer's recommendations, I have been heavily socializing this dog and exposing her to all kinds of things. This is probably common sense to many of you. The pup travels with me to most places I go and is always meeting new people and new dogs. She has had a number of opportunities to play with stable dogs and stable owners (two Goldens, a Malinois, an English Mastiff, a Dobe, and some Labs) and things have gone really well. I have turned down a few encounters where I didn't trust the dog. She is not spooked by other dogs and actually wants to check them out if she hears them barking or sees them. We have walked past the same dogs that spooked her the first few days I owned her and she has a much different reaction. I have walked her in both rural and urban settings, specifically around places with heavy traffic, including motorcycles. She was a little skittish around the fireworks on Fourth of July, but I think the experience was positive. We were in Wisconsin and some knuckleheads were shooting them right on the lakeshore. I had her on a leash and she walked by my side but she was apprehensive. I think most of us were, which we tried not to communicate to the dog, as people were igniting them where most people like to walk. I took her back home and put her in a quiet room. 

We have been playing with rags, old socks, towels, paper bags, a plastic Apple Juice jug,a puppet that once looked like a scarlet macaw, and a Kong ball(which is not as popular as the other items). I have a long broom stick with some rope and have tied many items to it to keep play interesting. She is really a maniac now. I'm having a lot of fun playing chase or just running in the yard, watching her chase toys into Lake Michigan, helping her explore the surroundings, and taking walks with her and my family. 

She is really gaining confidence and is really eager to check new things out. She is sometimes disinterested with new people, but is not frightened. I have been doing basic obedience with her and she is really fun to work with, albeit a bit stubborn at times. The trainer told me that if I socialized her well and spent a lot of time playing with her and building her drive, she'd come out of her shell really quickly and be a different dog in a few weeks. I have had some local people help me. We are all excited to see how this pup turns out. The trainer seems to think she'll be a fine candidate for the kind of work I want to do. I was very excited to her what he had to say, to learn what I was screwing up, and to learn the right way to do things. 

Instead of slinking around and being afraid of new things, she is now interested in new things and does not cower, tuck her tail, or attempt to run away. She seems to be too interested in small dogs, so I've had to be careful. Is this appropriate? I assume this is because she chases rabbits and squirrels around our yard and garden.

Things are going very well and she is really coming out. I have tried to be consistent, level in the face of surprises, barking dogs, and new people, and just got this dog out and played with her. I know I'll make mistakes, but I think things are working out. I can now take her places without her flipping out and getting scared. She's calm, has her tail up, and generally wants to play or check things out. I think I was pushing a puppy that I only had a few days into all kinds of new things without having any kind of foundation between the pup and myself.

I'm new to this, but I think she's a good dog. Others more experienced than myself have told me that. I'm sure I'll be back with many questions shortly.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Matthew Schaefer said:


> I am glad to see this site is now operational. I have been meaning to post an update for quite some time becasue I have very good news. As of my last post, I was very concerned about this puppy. On June 17th, I was able to meet with a trainer who was recommended to me in order to have my dog evaluated. Although she was a little nervous at first, she came around and was interested in meeting other people and dogs. She went crazy when presented with a rag. After talking with the trainer, seeing him in action, and watching a few other dogs, I quickly realized how many things I was doing wrong. I was probably pushing too hard and expecting too much. I am new and ignorant. I have learned a lot the past month from connections I have made and people I have been referred to. The archives on this forum have been very helpful.
> 
> Per the trainer's recommendations, I have been heavily socializing this dog and exposing her to all kinds of things. This is probably common sense to many of you. The pup travels with me to most places I go and is always meeting new people and new dogs. She has had a number of opportunities to play with stable dogs and stable owners (two Goldens, a Malinois, an English Mastiff, a Dobe, and some Labs) and things have gone really well. I have turned down a few encounters where I didn't trust the dog. She is not spooked by other dogs and actually wants to check them out if she hears them barking or sees them. We have walked past the same dogs that spooked her the first few days I owned her and she has a much different reaction. I have walked her in both rural and urban settings, specifically around places with heavy traffic, including motorcycles. She was a little skittish around the fireworks on Fourth of July, but I think the experience was positive. We were in Wisconsin and some knuckleheads were shooting them right on the lakeshore. I had her on a leash and she walked by my side but she was apprehensive. I think most of us were, which we tried not to communicate to the dog, as people were igniting them where most people like to walk. I took her back home and put her in a quiet room.
> 
> ...




Awesome man, good to hear things are coming along. 
Keep up the good work.
I sometime tell myself, (ted you are the only person that is keeping your dog from being the best trained dog in the world.)
hahahahaha.

Continue to grow, and get advice from people who know, and you will be fine.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Wow, good work!

Interested in small dogs in what way, exactly? I mean, what does she do?

Also, on the "stubborn" about basic ob, maybe we can help with that. 

But again, WOW!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I sometime tell myself, (ted you are the only person that is keeping your dog from being the best trained dog in the world.)
hahahahaha.

Yes, this is true. :twisted::twisted::twisted: Was SUPPOSED to be my dog. Damn Sandro.


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## Matthew Schaefer (May 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wow, good work!
> 
> Interested in small dogs in what way, exactly? I mean, what does she do?
> 
> ...


I have permitted her to go off leash with larger dogs, but I am more restrained with small dogs. She was playing with a Yorkshire terrier while on the leash and appeared to go after it a few times much like she goes after a macaw puppet we play with. "Appeared" is the operative word, here. Perhaps I am reading too much into her behavior or imagining things. If she chases rabbits, squirrels, birds, and other creatures around the yard, wouldn't she go after a small dog? 

My pit bull had a number of encounters with small dogs. 97.74% of these encounters came about because the small dog was in charge of the owner, the dog was allowed to roam free, or the dog charged at me or my dog.


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## Bernt Lundby (Mar 27, 2009)

It sounds like you are describing prey like behavior with smaller dogs. This is normal for puppies, chasing eachother around, stalking and pouncing. Unless she has raised shackles and seem aggressive I would not worry about it. If she otherwise shows normal behavior to other dogs (submitting, alternating chasing etc). Just don't let her pin the other dogs for long periods. 

You are doing a great job with the puppy trying to build confidence toward environments, people and other dogs. This does not mean your dog neccesarily will become stable, social or workable.

I bought a working line malinois as my first dog and got in to a lot of problems. I did some mistakes (mainly being too permissive) and could not shape the dog into a confident social adult. He had to be put down in the military after a few serious biting incidences (handler, bystander etc). 

Even if you do most things perfect, a puppy that is nervous (unless it dissappears) may end up as an ustable adult. I also saw insecurity in my pup, but it was a lot more forward/aggressvie oriented (since 12 weeks), and made the mistake of assuming building confidence would make the dog more stable. All it did was create an insecure unstable dominant adult wanting to take outl bitches, pups, other males, and people when for some reason becoming a bit uncomfortable. I I never saw tail between the leg etc, but he was reactive and hyper with a lot more drive than his nerves could contain. He was also extremly possessive and this created a lot of conflict (never bit me though). 

Having a dog such as mal/dutch with a nerve around family members may become a problem, especially if you train the dog in PP (hidden sleeve etc). Before doing such work I would make sure the dog is stable and secure (after 16 months).


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## Matthew Schaefer (May 25, 2009)

Thank you for your input. My original post had been posted less than two days after I got her. By having a number of experienced individuals "assess" her, I realize I was expecting too much in a very short amount of time. At the time of my post, the pup had just one day to adjust to a new life with a new and inexperienced, which I still am, owner, in a new environment. Aside from the way she looks, you would not think I have the same dog. She has not exhibited any of the original behaviors I posted about.

For over two months now, I've had an enjoyable "menace" on my hands. She's a great little dog.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Matthew Schaefer said:


> Thank you for your input. My original post had been posted less than two days after I got her. By having a number of experienced individuals "assess" her, I realize I was expecting too much in a very short amount of time. At the time of my post, the pup had just one day to adjust to a new life with a new and inexperienced, which I still am, owner, in a new environment. Aside from the way she looks, you would not think I have the same dog. She has not exhibited any of the original behaviors I posted about.
> 
> For over two months now, I've had an enjoyable "menace" on my hands. She's a great little dog.



Yes, that's like I like to hear! You have an crazy little ankle biter on your hands. 

awesome, have fun with her.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Bernt Lundby said:


> I bought a working line malinois as my first dog and got in to a lot of problems. I did some mistakes (mainly being too permissive) and could not shape the dog into a confident social adult. He had to be put down in the military after a few serious biting incidences (handler, bystander etc).
> 
> Hi Bernt,
> Allow me to off track a little. Did you purchase your Mal for military used ? Thanks.


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