# Vitors' Welcome home



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

The last thread I asked if launching was genetic because this dog has never once gone after my leg and he has not been trained to bite people.... Matt G asked if I should be knocking him down and I couldn't explain what I do but here's an example.He doesn't want my shirt, he prefers my body. Selena. you say just endure it huh LOL. Enjoy at my expense!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej_yy521koM


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> The last thread I asked if launching was genetic because this dog has never once gone after my leg and he has not been trained to bite people.... Matt G asked if I should be knocking him down and I couldn't explain what I do but here's an example.He doesn't want my shirt, he prefers my body. Selena. you say just endure it huh LOL. *Enjoy* at my expense!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej_yy521koM


hahahaha......I havent laughed that hard since I watched the naked gun for the first time.
Everything was gold from the opening scene with Vitor on one of those extenda leashes, to the look of concern on your face when hes biting you, to the end credits with Vitor smashing into you and the camera.
On a serious note, nice dog.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Your comment about my Flexi line just made me laugh, only serious dog trainers use those LOL. I accidentally hit him in the back of the head with it when he lunged at me, i think you can hear it. The flexi line ****ed me up, I had him calmed down and my hand in his collar but while trying to pick that ****er up again the collar slipped down his neck into his favorite target!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Snort...:lol:

Instead of that retractable leash, you should try a gentle leader  Try being more calm assertive as well.

Nice pup.


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## vincent demaio (May 6, 2009)

was he biting you??


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Enjoy at my expense!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej_yy521koM


Oh I did =D>


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

roflmao.....=D> :lol: =D>


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Snort...:lol:
> 
> Instead of that retractable leash, you should try a gentle leader  Try being more calm assertive as well.
> 
> Nice pup.


No assertiveness, don't want to squash that excitement. I was as calm as I could possible be, considering my bicep getting bit!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> No assertiveness, don't want to squash that excitement. I was as calm as I could possible be, considering my bicep getting bit!


Yes you were calm.

I was just joking about the other stuff, pullin a Ceasar on you ;-)


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks for that. I still have a smile on my face.Nice dog, maybe you should walk him in a suit. Do you really need to put up with that or is everyone just ****ing with you? lol.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Yes you were calm.
> 
> I was just joking about the other stuff, pullin a Ceasar on you ;-)


Gerry, 
LOL I need a bumper sticker "What would Cesar do" 
Candy and Jennifer that's just rude. You 2 like SM?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Thanks for that. I still have a smile on my face.Nice dog, maybe you should walk him in a suit. Do you really need to put up with that or is everyone just ****ing with you? lol.


Isn't he cute? Just some excitement from being locked up all day. Do you see his jaws quivering the first time I got him off? I changed shirts when I got home cause I had a feeling it was coming and I didn't want him to ruin a under armor shirt. If you look at the shirt in the beginning you can see the saliva from the night before!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Ahhhhhh that's great! Thanks for the laugh!


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

nice veins ..... perfect for that vampire! :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok I'll bite..

why no tugs or rags? just curious...you like the pain?


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## Richard Rutt (May 14, 2009)

Tim, you kill me, I still have tears in my eyes from laughing so hard. I'll tell you the same thing i told you 2 months ago, when I first saw Vitor..... Bon Courage! 
You could always do what I did when he jumped on me, Kick him in the chest. It didn't actually work, but at least you don't have to deal with the retractable leash. 
Make sure you have video of the upcoming "come to Jesus meeting"
My money is on Vitor


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> ok I'll bite..
> 
> why no tugs or rags? just curious...you like the pain?


I think it's all relative, Vitor's relatives all bit the shit outa him when he was in Holland .

He's used to it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think it's all relative, Vitor's relatives all bit the shit outa him when he was in Holland .
> 
> He's used to it.


I think my dog is related too, If I post some video tomorrow of her biting the shit out of me, is that impressive?? . probably not, cause she ain't a pup.. just was curious...NICE DOG..by the way..


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Selena. you say just endure it huh LOL. Enjoy at my expense!


Awesome video and great advice!!! Please...for the love god...keep doing what you're doing and keep the camera rolling!!!:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

It is much funnier to watch someone else go through this shit. Now I know why my wife likes to watch me play with the pups here.
he looks good.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Awesome video and great advice!!! Please...for the love god...keep doing what you're doing and keep the camera rolling!!!:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:


well into adulthood please :twisted::twisted::twisted:


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Gerry,
> LOL I need a bumper sticker "What would Cesar do"
> Candy and Jennifer that's just rude. You 2 like SM?


I have the feeling this is going to be YOUR new theme song :-$\\/ Never mind Marilyn...just listen to the words ;-)~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRD58iX7JK8


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> well into adulthood please :twisted::twisted::twisted:


Of course into adulthood!!! You should never correct this type of behavior until the dog is over 2years-old. Anything younger than that and you kill all of the drive.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Richard Rutt said:


> Tim, you kill me, I still have tears in my eyes from laughing so hard. I'll tell you the same thing i told you 2 months ago, when I first saw Vitor..... Bon Courage!
> You could always do what I did when he jumped on me, Kick him in the chest. It didn't actually work, but at least you don't have to deal with the retractable leash.
> Make sure you have video of the upcoming "come to Jesus meeting"
> My money is on Vitor


I popped him in the back of the head with my retractable leash, by the way I have 2 retractable leashes in case I lose one. If I dodge him he really goes crazy, go figure. I think he enjoys pain so the kick won't work! 

@ Joby, nope forgot my laso for this rodeo 

@ Chris S. are you serious or being facetious? I can't tell.

@Candy How the hell can you not watch MM. That dude is scary! Lets tone it down, how bout some 80's music to bring back some memories.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPmMQfRmJH8


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> It is much funnier to watch someone else go through this shit. Now I know why my wife likes to watch me play with the pups here.
> he looks good.


I'd love to see what you go through in a month. Video please, I need to laugh too!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> @ Chris S. are you serious or being facetious? I can't tell.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPmMQfRmJH8


What would make you think that?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> What would make you think that?


Some people act very strongly to their dogs biting them, while others know it goes away with most dogs. Like a malinois puppy biting your pant legs!


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## Sonny Lee (Nov 11, 2009)

I have a question.... you mentioned he is not near 6 months (probably 5 months plus?)... so this behaviour of jumping and biting you in the bicep is ok? So as not to kill the drive? I understand about the lauching part, just curious of the biting you part... 

In another thread "Dominant puppy"... everyone advises the OP how to control her 6 mths old Dutch puppy.. Selena's responses was "learn him "no" (or something similar), teach him to stop whatever he's doing at that moment and than (if you want to) redirect him to something he may do.
Time to set (some) boundries for him. Isn't a cute baby anymore, but a toddler..."

In your thread "Is launching for a bite genetic?", again Selena's advise was "And ruin a good puppy? Just endure it...if he's old enough just tell him NO. When he may bite (on the decoy) it will fade away on you."

So when is old enough? And multiple threads on the forum has mentioned that if a puppy/ dog is strong, a bit of correction (being sensible) is not going to ruin it....

So, again, my question is why we condone this "dominant" behaviour with Vitor and said others should control theirs? If you have a fire-breather (as what Jeff O said), don't you want control... otherwise, isn't it like a timebomb ready to go off anytime? I am not saying that Vitor needs training, but shouldn't there be house rules? I, as a newbie, having no position, a nobody in the dog training world, is a bit confused. Sorry if I am asking stuoid questions.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Sonny Lee said:


> I have a question.... you mentioned he is not near 6 months (probably 5 months plus?)... so this behaviour of jumping and biting you in the bicep is ok? So as not to kill the drive? I understand about the lauching part, just curious of the biting you part...
> 
> In another thread "Dominant puppy"... everyone advises the OP how to control her 6 mths old Dutch puppy.. Selena's responses was "learn him "no" (or something similar), teach him to stop whatever he's doing at that moment and than (if you want to) redirect him to something he may do.
> Time to set (some) boundries for him. Isn't a cute baby anymore, but a toddler..."
> ...


I guess I'm not the one worried about him dominating me. Sonny do you think advice should be different for every handler? Do you think I'm afraid of Vitor? Vitor will not live in the house. The other person who posted felt out of control, I do not.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Sonny Lee said:


> So when is old enough? And multiple threads on the forum has mentioned that if a puppy/ dog is strong, a bit of correction (being sensible) is not going to ruin it....
> 
> .


 When I get the bite I want!


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Hey Tim, if he is to much for you i will trade you his sister.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

eric squires said:


> Hey Tim, if he is to much for you i will trade you his sister.


LOL, She is not welcome here anymore!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> When I get the bite I want!



On you or the decoy?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> On you or the decoy?


I like the pain I'll make him quit when it really hurts. I'm still waiting for more AKC people to come out of the wood work, I know they are out there!


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

It looks like to me the puppy is playing with Tim. Tim is allowing the game and telling the dog what is acceptable. You can not get mad at the dog if he ruins a good shirt or clothes, since you have allowed him to play like this. 

The poster on the dominance thread is having problems with the dog growling and snapping. It does not sound like a game with the other poster.

Personally, I do not like the dog running me over but some people do not mind it. I worry about my knees getting screwed up now that I am getting older. I do not think this is a dominance thing with this dog. It is just the way he has learned to play.

I will let my own dog grab my arm sometimes. He want break the skin but this is just when wrestling with the dog. He will exert some pressure but it is only as much as I allow him. I like him to have something to hold onto when I roll him. I did not do this game when he was younger but only as he matured and I no longer had any problems with him. It is just a game in his mind and he knows not to take it any further. I think as a young pup it might have made his head swell and made some problems in the relationship dynamic of handler and dog. The game would have got out of hand.

I think if you are good handler and have the relationship bond with the dog than games can be okay. I think for some people it is not a good idea because the dog is not under control of the handler to begin with and this can cause problems latter on.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Some people act very strongly to their dogs biting them, while others know it goes away with most dogs. Like a malinois puppy biting your pant legs!


the key word...MOST....I love the dog..nice...but 5- 6 months is a little too old for me...dog would have punctured by then, but then again I am a softy...not hard as nails, like you


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

That was a tear jerker, couldn't stop laughing. Thats pretty typical though of well bred gentics though. Funny as hell video though. I think you better have that sit down before he tries to make you his permanent favorite chew toy:lol:. Long story short a nice pup you got there.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jack you hit the nail, this dog is playing and I'm allowing it.


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## Sonny Lee (Nov 11, 2009)

Got the idea... thanks


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> the key word...MOST....I love the dog..nice...but 5- 6 months is a little too old for me...dog would have punctured by then, but then again I am a softy...not hard as nails, like you


His big boy teeth aren't all the way in so it's not too bad.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I like the pain


Cool 'cause I like watching him bite you.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> That was a tear jerker, couldn't stop laughing. Thats pretty typical though of well bred gentics though. Funny as hell video though. I think you better have that sit down before he tries to make you his permanent favorite chew toy:lol:. Long story short a nice pup you got there.


Thanks Harry


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Cool 'cause I like watching him bite you.


I figured so!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That shit is stupid. Beat the **** out of him.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Its interesting about the advice by some to punish the behaviour. Watching Tim calm down Vitor to try and stop the behavour is most likely the sensible option. I dont know what Tim has done with Vitor, but its not so easy to knock these dogs down. I have had a number of pups from similar bloodlines and when you get violent with them over stuff like this it actually increases their drive, and they come back into you faster and harder. Then you have to either increase the punishment or calm it down. I have little doubt if Tim smashed Vitor in that situation he would most likely come back into him harder, faster and with more aggression. I had one female who was doing almost identical as Vitor was. She was nine months of age. It got to a point where after a number of hard corrections she flew up into my face and bit me in the lip. If I hadnt of reacted I would have been getting some nice green thread put in my face at the docs. 
Its deff something you have weigh up.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That shit is stupid. Beat the **** out of him.


Not before two years.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim thanks for the laugh, just like Mike S I now know how it looks from the outside

@ Sonny: Tim already explained my 2 different advices. Tim does understand his puppy, Vitor doesn't live in the house, and has been told how Vitor will develop (which in this case I could predict for about 95 %, and the other 5% is the influence of Tim himself, 'cause Vitor is bred from our lines).

@ Jeff: Christopher J. explains it well. If you want to totally have this behiour to leave, you'll have to correct so hard, that you'll ruin the dog 'cause he's to young for it at the moment. 

You can do it when he's a bit older, but the way Tim has choosen is the same way as we do it. Just calm him down if you want the playing to finish, 'cause this is still puppy play. His bond with Vitor is so good that if it's really getting out of hand, only grabbing him by the collar, raise him a bit in the air and a firm "NO, calm" (or something similar) will be enough.

This kind of wild playing will fade away when he's biting the decoy, or in the maturingproces, so Tim just have to endure it and we all will have some laughs in the meanwhile.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Uuuuuhh, I was joking. I talked to Tim the other day about his dog. Funny stuff.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I thought it was, but wanted to explain any way ;-)

that's when you're in a different time zone...I miss all the fun over here.


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

Great stuff lovely attitude from Tim and one hell of a nice pup
Tommy


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Not before two years.


@Selena You'd be surprised by the number of people who tell others to dominate their puppy. They pick it up from AKC obedience, tv shows like Cesar, their neighbors that never owned a dog. Most people seem to be control freaks and are really weak and it makes them feel empowered to dominate a puppy. Most people with a little experience know this puppy behavior for what it is. Chris Jones explained it really well, the punishment on a dog like Vitor would have to be so severe to mean anything to him. Most people who talk about dominating the pup have a dog that responds well to a flick in the nose and they think every dog can be trained with a squirt bottle:lol:.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

why no tugs or rags? 

I don't need to play with the dog every time we go out and he certainly is gonna force me to do so. I like the advice, every time he bites your bicep pull out a tug like a gumball machine, talk about rewarding him!


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

You're definitely tougher than me....love the flexi lead. You look like a fisherman whose line has gone slack on the reel and next thing the shark has jumped into the boat with you!

If I try to ignore my bitch she headbutts me in the pods. :-o


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Ian Forbes said:


> You're definitely tougher than me....love the flexi lead. You look like a fisherman whose line has gone slack on the reel and next thing the shark has jumped into the boat with you!
> 
> If I try to ignore my bitch she headbutts me in the pods. :-o


Lol he pretty much has that flexible line broke from hitting the end so hard, no worries though I have another. I'm really glad he don't go for my pods LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> why no tugs or rags?
> 
> I don't need to play with the dog every time we go out and he certainly is gonna force me to do so. I like the advice, every time he bites your bicep pull out a tug like a gumball machine, talk about rewarding him!


LOL....
not quite what I meant.... :mrgreen:
I let my pup do the same thing, just not to that age, like I said I'm soft and squishy though....the puncturing and big bruises made me decide it was time to stop..love the dog, keep up the good work...that looks like a fun game...for the dog...


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> no worries though I have another.


 :-o:-o:-o:-o:-o


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## Richard Rutt (May 14, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> @Selena You'd be surprised by the number of people who tell others to dominate their puppy. They pick it up from AKC obedience, tv shows like Cesar, their neighbors that never owned a dog. Most people seem to be control freaks and are really weak and it makes them feel empowered to dominate a puppy. Most people with a little experience know this puppy behavior for what it is. Chris Jones explained it really well, the punishment on a dog like Vitor would have to be so severe to mean anything to him. Most people who talk about dominating the pup have a dog that responds well to a flick in the nose and they think every dog can be trained with a squirt bottle:lol:.


You're absolutely right Tim, and in addition, the overwhelming majority in this country have no idea of a real dog or high level protection work (sport or otherwise) so they do what they know how to do........... OB???????

You're on the right track, you know what you have, you know what you want, and where you're going with this pup. More importantly, you know where to go for help, and advice.

There will come a day when it's obedience or disobedience, he does what you say because you told him to, or there are consequences, but that day isn't today!

Until then enjoy Vitor, and keep the video coming.


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## Wade Morrell (Jan 5, 2009)

I think he just wanted the dip in your lip...:smile:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Richard Rutt said:


> You're absolutely right Tim, and in addition, the overwhelming majority in this country have no idea of a real dog or high level protection work (sport or otherwise) so they do what they know how to do........... OB???????
> 
> You're on the right track, you know what you have, you know what you want, and where you're going with this pup. More importantly, you know where to go for help, and advice.
> 
> ...


Well put Rick!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Wade Morrell said:


> I think he just wanted the dip in your lip...:smile:


LOL, he prefers the strong sensation of Kodiak wintergreen. I had to readjust the dip since he jarred it loose with that intial hello


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tim, are you going to train without any corrections??? You know the pup well by now, would it be possible to do with the dog in your opinion?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Tim, are you going to train without any corrections??? You know the pup well by now, would it be possible to do with the dog in your opinion?


No I'm not as it would not work. When the time comes for corrections I will use my flexible lead. Are you trolling?


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

he doesn't hit you in the balls? your lucky ... my mali bitch has pin point accuracy and it hurts big time!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Tyree Johnson said:


> he doesn't hit you in the balls? your lucky ... my mali bitch has pin point accuracy and it hurts big time!


Must be something with female malsLOL as mine seems to enjoy lifting up and poking my satchel as well. In guarding she reall pokes hard at the privates of the decoy, Steve Lepic likes it!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I knew this video would bring on some contraversy for one or two people and a big reason I posted it is because so many times people post questions on what to do, as they think their puppy is being aggressive. How do puppies play with other pack puppies? By biting them and when it's to rough the other puppy stops and shreaks to let him know it's too rough. if he plays with his mother obsessivly and she has had enough, she let's him know it by, well you know. So being that this is a pack animal and he is part of "my pack" I will let him know when the day comes but as for know I may be more tolerant than others so we will enjoy ourselves


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## Jeff Threadgill (Jun 9, 2010)

Extreme drives take special training  My friend had a dog that would not oust his reward/toy for nothing or nobody. He would literally have to choke him out to make him release. Next time the dog still would not release it haha.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Here is another thing I mentioned in that video of Grizzly. I said I spent from a year old to two years rebuilding our relationship. At the time I had nobody for help so I took the bad advice of "pet people" who told me grab him by his nap and shake him, or hold him down till he submits. This caused huge huge fights FOR NO REASON other than puppy fun! He would not submit when I held him down and would turn in his skin and bite me on the forearm, out of AGRESSION at that point. When I started SCh with him everything transfered from him fighting with me because he felt more like my oppenent then handler. If Vitor was biting me out of anger I would put a stop to it but he is not angry, just being a puppy!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I knew this video would bring on some contraversy for one or two people and a big reason I posted it is because so many times people post questions on what to do, as they think their puppy is being aggressive. How do puppies play with other pack puppies? By biting them and when it's to rough the other puppy stops and shreaks to let him know it's too rough. if he plays with his mother obsessivly and she has had enough, she let's him know it by, well you know. So being that this is a pack animal and he is part of "my pack" I will let him know when the day comes but as for now I may be more tolerant than others so we will enjoy ourselves


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Tim , you have got to warn people before they watch that video . 

Awesome dog but as I watched him chew on you and it went on and on with you starting to work him like you've got a bitesuit on , I started to think " This guy likes this . " Then I remembered that video of Dick's dog biting you and I knew " This sick ****er likes this ! " .

I feel dirty just having watched it .


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Nice his sister Pippi is in the Same period now. I love to play with them like that, with Ace it was possible for whole his life, but only with the thick leather winter jacket he was "imprinted" on as a pup as he came to live with me in november....and with maturing he had to be reminded from time to time that it was playing....just from calmness without punishment


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Tim , you have got to warn people before they watch that video .
> 
> Awesome dog but as I watched him chew on you and it went on and on with you starting to work him like you've got a bitesuit on , I started to think " This guy likes this . " Then I remembered that video of Dick's dog biting you and I knew " This sick ****er likes this ! " .
> 
> I feel dirty just having watched it .


A nasty little female pup has fallen into my GSD friends hands from a "pet type home" no bitewirk. Tomorrow I will work her with a nice beige ace bandage around my forearm for entertaining purposes only LOL and she isn't playing!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Nice his sister Pippi is in the Same period now. I love to play with them like that, with Ace it was possible for whole his life, but only with the thick leather winter jacket he was "imprinted" on as a pup as he came to live with me in november....and with maturing he had to be reminded from time to time that it was playing....just from calmness without punishment


Ah refreshing to hear good advice, and thanks for the nice pup


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

We will come and see the "little" one in november he'll probably regognize us after a little while....

A male out of Anne and Wibo is with a friend, but stayed with us several in his puppy time and still gets all worked up and happy for only hearing me....


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

And advice, you met his family, wasn't that enough


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> And advice, you met his family, wasn't that enough


As you already know he will probably just say hi and then Go on to more exciting things, as he is not one that sits around to be pet by people


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