# New to PP dogs and need guidance



## Grant Chapman (Jul 18, 2009)

We have a Newfie/German Shepherd mix (a puppy rescue dog) that is now 8 months old. He's in the midst of basic obedience training right now, but soon will be finished and I'm looking to train him for security uses.

He is a largish dog (about 85lbs at the moment), and like most Newfs is a very quiet dog; he rarely barks. He does have an exceptionally strong prey drive, which Newfs aren't supposed to possess; he's killed several rabbits that wandered into "his" yard, and he's a terrific mouser.

In our area there are hundreds of rabbits, and any training we do has built-in distractions because of them. By and large he's learning to control his inclinations, but when he's loose he will indulge them. He also seems to have a very good sense of smell, much better than other dogs with which I'm familiar.

We've honestly assessed our needs, desires, commitment, and capabilities, and have come to the conclusion that he needs to be trained to alert and intimidate only - no bitework, etc.

Now comes the other shoe: we live in a very rural area. It's an hours drive to any town worthy of the name, and two hours to a metropolitan area. There are no training facilities in the area (we've looked), and necessity dictates that I train him myself. (I've trained other dogs in basic obedience, via the Koehler method, but never any sort of PP. I've had very good results, but I'm not stupid enough to believe that makes me an expert.)

Keeping all the above in mind, how/where would you recommend I start? (My major concern at this moment is whether it's possible to get a normally quiet dog to do the job we want him to do.)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

By getting a dog that will actually do what you are wanting it to. That is where you should start.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

First, decide what is your goal. To do this, learn to identify the differences between sports and PP work. Some trainers actually can do cross training (both) very well, but most can not. Ask your trainer if they see sports and PP work as the same thing. If they do, then ask why. Even most cross trainers recognize the differences. Find a trainer that is willing to help you with YOUR goals. Don't let other people shove their opinions down your throat. Be open minded to their input, but if they don't know WHY they do what they do...then you should consider avoiding them.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Grant Chapman said:


> We have a Newfie/German Shepherd mix (a puppy rescue dog) that is now 8 months old. He's in the midst of basic obedience training right now, but soon will be finished and I'm looking to train him for security uses.
> 
> He is a largish dog (about 85lbs at the moment), and like most Newfs is a very quiet dog; he rarely barks. He does have an exceptionally strong prey drive, which Newfs aren't supposed to possess; he's killed several rabbits that wandered into "his" yard, and he's a terrific mouser.
> 
> ...


Grant,

I kind of agree with Jeff. You're really in for an uphill battle trying to train a mixed breed you picked up from a shelter to do reliable PP work. You might get him to be a nice alert dog
that will scare off most intruders or give you enough warning to get your shot gun, but you're wasting your time and money trying to do much else. Sorry


OH yeah, don't let anyone convince you that there is a big difference between sport and PP work. What they really mean is it's easy to talk a good ball game with a PP dog and a sport dog has to prove it in front of an impartial judge


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Grant,
> 
> I kind of agree with Jeff. You're really in for an uphill battle trying to train a mixed breed you picked up from a shelter to do reliable PP work.


He said all he needs from his dog is a reliable bark (alert and display). That is easy to do...and I would be surprised if a good PP trainer couldn't get a Shephard mix, even if from a sheltor, couldn't accomplish this. He doesn't need a SchH III dog or a series sentry dog. If a trainer can't get a good bark from a dog, then you have to wonder what type of trainer they are. Even basic Kohler methods with distance in the dark could work for something so simple.

Grant, where are you located?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

IF all you want and need is a barker, ask Bob about his JRT. Easy to feed, not big and will raise hell. Then learn how to shoot, so when some crackhead fails to honor your dog........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> IF all you want and need is a barker, ask Bob about his JRT. Easy to feed, not big and will raise hell. Then learn how to shoot, so when some crackhead fails to honor your dog........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


JRT and a gun!
All the average home owner needs. That irritating little bassid will alert on someone a half block down the street while the GSDs snooze. He'll give me time to clean the gun, wipe it down and load before the bad guy gets to the door.
In Missouri we have good CC laws and the right to defend our home with deadly force. 
I'd rather go to court over my shooting someone in MY house then go to defend my dog for a bite.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> JRT and a gun!
> All the average home owner needs. That irritating little bassid will alert on someone a half block down the street while the GSDs snooze. He'll give me time to clean the gun, wipe it down and load before the bad guy gets to the door.
> In Missouri we have good CC laws and the right to defend our home with deadly force.
> I'd rather go to court over my shooting someone in MY house then go to defend my dog for a bite.


There sounds a lot of sense in that post. I can second the early alarm system with the jrt.... but whatever you do... never have two of the little gits! :-D


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Jeff is definately right . newfie is used a rescue dog and at 85lbs at 8months sounds more newfie.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> There sounds a lot of sense in that post. I can second the early alarm system with the jrt.... but whatever you do... never have two of the little gits! :-D


I've had 2-3-4 terriers at one time over the past 40 yrs. Multiple intact dogs with one bitch, etc, but never multiple bitches together.
I'm the boss in my house........ 8-[ and I have my wife's permission to say so! :-D


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## Grant Chapman (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback, folks.

I'm getting the impression that what I want him to do is relatively within the breed's capabilities. Is that a valid conclusion?

As I wade through some of the past posts here, I've come up with a list of specific behaviors:

1) Alert (bark) when an unknown person/vehicle enters the property (he doesn't bark much at all now.)
2) Allow known persons in without confronting them (he lets everyone in without discretion now.)
3) Confront unknowns and look mean (which a 120lb black dog with pearly white teeth should be able to do, if he can just be made to understand the difference between "accepted" and "not accepted" people.)

Again, given our location (Eastern Oregon) we are a long way from training facilities, so I'm going to need to do this myself. I've got the Koehler Guard Dog book, and while I haven't read it thoroughly it seems more attuned to bite work than what I want. I've had good luck with his general obedience book, but I'm not sure about this one. Any good suggestions?

(Before anyone asks why we need an alert dog so far from a city: we are in an area with lots of recreational activities and traffic. We often have people showing up at our house who "accidentally" took a wrong turn.)


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

As good as Koehler was for his day... Which he was one of the first trainers to emphasize relationship to the masses. He is a bit outdated.

I think most people will agree with me that trying to teach you how to teach the dog via the internet is going to be a major boonedogal. Also, if the dog lacks instinctual suspicion of strangers, your going to be working against the dogs genetics to be suspicious of strangers. Simply you cannot make a golden retriever into a German Shepherd, no matter how hard you try. 

Grant, Most of us start with a dog that comes from a long lineage of dogs that have been bred to be a working dog. We also study and practise our craft with an insane obsession And it still is a very diffculy challenge to do this to a level that we wish to achieve.

To get the dog to bark could be as simple as dangling a treat just out of his reach till he gets fustrated enough that he lets out a whimper and we give him the treat...then uping anty, till he actually barks. But to transfer that to barking at strangers when the dog simply does not see them as a threat would be a great challenge even if a trainer was on scene...and then if you did succeed how do you preserve the dogs ability to discern who is/and who is not a threat? 

I think your conclusion, may not be correct. Even if the breed itself was capable of this...the dog you are describing in itself seems to be a great dog. but at this point in the dogs lifes seems to be in temperment a dog not suited for the behaviors you wish. 

Now what I would do if I was going to try this with this particular dog, is to leave him alone and let him grow up a bit more. And see if some these behaviors do not strengthen with maturity. Many dogs will become more defensive of thier territory and family as they get older and become a "man". You know most little boys will not have the machismo to be the great protector/provider...but may later as they become men. But if you see those boys who's fathers try to make them tough, generally just make them weaker by pushing them to do something they emotionally are not ready for it.


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## Paul Fox (May 25, 2009)

This link may be of some use to you.

http://www.dogstuff.info/guard_and_bark_training_spicer.html


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Grant Chapman said:


> Thanks for the feedback, folks.
> 
> I'm getting the impression that what I want him to do is relatively within the breed's capabilities. Is that a valid conclusion?
> 
> ...


I have read the entire thread and don't see a good prognosis for success. You may have a fine pet but by 8 months should bark at a few things. You say he is quiet. It sounds like he favors the Newfie part of his pedigree. Most GSDs by that age don't shut up and bark at all kinds of things, even sometimes stuff that doesn't exist. 

As he matures, he may grow into a natural guard dog. Maturity should bring a bit of suspicion to his character, he seems to lack it now and is one reason I mention for a poor prognosis. The other is a noob reading a book and hoping to end up with the requirements you are seeking. We all started as noobs, nothing wrong with that. Those of us who have had any success have tended to find someone who knows what they are doing and learning how to do it. There is no book that can teach you the many things you need to know. I have that very book and it makes a lot of good points, READ IT prior to starting your training from cover to cover, twice would be best. 

Since you admit to being a noob, you probably don't understand the dog has much better nose and ears than you do. If you are thinking about doing the agitation to get him to bark yourself, he will probably smell or hear your tell-tale signs and you will teach him to bark at you (or the family member you sucker into doing the noise). Is that REALLY what you want to teach him?? Doesn't sound like Requirement 1 and 2 are being met in this scenario. There is a reason we use outside agitators to accomplish this, whether we are doing sport work or PP. 

The dogs nose can smell 100s if not 1000s times better than a human. They will smell you coming long before you are close enough to make suspicious sounds that he should alert on. Same with other family members. Even if you get past the smell issue, you make certain tell-tale sounds that a dog will know is yours. Do you really want to teach the dog to bark AT you or a family member? That seems to go against both requirements 1 and 2.

I had a dobe that could hear my wife's Honda 2 blocks away and that car was stock and very quiet. If the dog was in the backyard, I couldn't hear her in the driveway. The dog could detect her car from that distance and there were LOTS of Hondas that went by on that street, probably 100 an hour. It was a BUSY boulevard, yet the dog never gave a false reading on that particular car. She said the same thing about my truck and it was just an everyday full-size Chevy PU. How many of those go by on that boulevard, too many to even make a guess. The dog alerted far enough away that I could go get her a can of soda from the fridge and be at the front door by the time the car came into view. 

Does this sound like something you can overcome by yourself? Yes, the alert for the wife or I was different BUT that is the first part of your problem. The second part is to teach them an action to go with the alert AND obviously on someone that is a stranger, not a family member. 

This was a dog that was prior to the ones I mentioned in my bio. The dogs in the bio have all had more sensitive ears and nose and learned how to use those senses. 

Finding a good trainer will help you overcome these obstacles and you will learn a lot of things the book just can't cover.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: As good as Koehler was for his day... Which he was one of the first trainers to emphasize relationship to the masses. He is a bit outdated.

Yet there's Ceasar, raking in the bucks with his own show........using Koehler's methods. Weird right ??


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Jeff O said:


> Yet there's Ceasar, raking in the bucks with his own show........using Koehler's methods. Weird right ??


Just ask any CM enthusiast and they'll tell you that his training is not harsh and that he is nothing like Koehler.  It is ironic though. 

Courtney


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He is Koehler. You are too young, but I actually met and trained with him back in the stone ages. He was not harsh. Now Ceasar has to train a bunch of dogs for the movies and he can BE Koehler. LOL

Ugly Dachshund the return, Swiss family Robinson....again, It's a dog's life....without you, Big red....not just a gum.

THese are all titles he could pick from.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: As good as Koehler was for his day... Which he was one of the first trainers to emphasize relationship to the masses. He is a bit outdated.
> 
> Yet there's Ceasar, raking in the bucks with his own show........using Koehler's methods. Weird right ??


Not weird - just a sign $$$$$ of the times.

People can't think like they used to, they need to be thought for them!!!


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## Grant Chapman (Jul 18, 2009)

Dan and James, thanks for the wisdom. Also, I found the link from Paul to be most interesting. I agree with the dog's senses being much better than mine; most dogs are, but this dog in particular has a very well developed sense of smell. 

His inbred temperament no doubt makes this task more difficult (and perhaps impossible.) I'm curious, though, about working with both his prey drive and the natural distractions we have here to achieve some of the results I seek.

He's a phenomenal hunter; he is able to sneak up on birds and catch them, and rabbits are no match for his stalking abilities. He has killed both when they made it inside his large (75x100 foot) enclosure. I'm used to dogs that are chase predators, but his hunting style is far more like a feline.

In our environment we have a huge population of wild rabbits who are stupid enough to come within 15-20 feet or so of a leashed dog. I've been able to use them as distractions during his obedience training to good effect; when we're out on the leash, if I give him a stay command, he'll just sit there and stare intently at the rabbits.

Given what I've just said and in your experience, is it likely that a trainer could use the rabbits as (unknowing) agitators, and key him to bark at them instead of laying in wait - or would that be like swimming upstream at a waterfall?


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Koehler is just ONE thing that could work. There are many things one can do for something so simple.

Here is a link to a DVD on "PP training without a decoy" and you might be interested in giving a try..since you don't have a decoy to work with... It isn't going to produce a finished dog, but it might help you accomplish what you need. I know of a few trainers that have found it helpful in starting a dog for PP work. http://www.k9prosportsonline.com/K9PSmerchandise.htm#dvds


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee Robinson said:


> Koehler is just ONE thing that could work. There are many things one can do for something so simple.
> 
> Here is a link to a DVD on "PP training without a decoy" and you might be interested in giving a try..since you don't have a decoy to work with... It isn't going to produce a finished dog, but it might help you accomplish what you need. I know of a few trainers that have found it helpful in starting a dog for PP work. http://www.k9prosportsonline.com/K9PSmerchandise.htm#dvds


Don't waste your money. My wife bought a copy. It was pathetic, nothing but rag work and BS


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Thank U, Thomas! 
For your Financial support of Butch Cappel.
Nice to see your money, put in front of your mouth.

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Butch Cappel said:


> Thank U, Thomas!
> For your Financial support of Butch Cappel.
> Nice to see your money, put in front of your mouth.
> 
> ...


Enough for a 12 pack of Bush? Should have last till noon one day.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> Thank U, Thomas!
> For your Financial support of Butch Cappel.
> Nice to see your money, put in front of your mouth.
> 
> ...



It was the wife's money, but I thought it was well worth the $29 bucks for its entertainment value. The last time I laughed this hard was when Laugh In was on


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lets not turn this post into another insult marathon!!!
That kinda crap is really wearing on most here.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Thomas 
Please tell your wife I said "Thank you for her support" and if she has any questions please give me a call. I'd be glad to answer _her _ questions.

Mr Scott, *I agree*, you have my total compliance.

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> Thomas
> Please tell your wife I said "Thank you for her support" and if she has any questions please give me a call. I'd be glad to answer _her _ questions.
> 
> Mr Scott, *I agree*, you have my total compliance.
> ...



Sorry Butch, but I don't think that she will be calling you.
She was laughing harder than I was


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

For what it worth, every Newfie I've ever met, outside of one bitch, were a total people dogs.
Happy to see you, lick your hand off, then alert because you were bleeding profusely.

I think it's an up hill battle and doomed from the beginning. Why try to put a square peg in a round hole?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Randy Allen said:


> For what it worth, every Newfie I've ever met, outside of one bitch, were a total people dogs.
> Happy to see you, lick your hand off, then alert because you were bleeding profusely.
> 
> I think it's an up hill battle and doomed from the beginning. Why try to put a square peg in a round hole?


I have met several Newfie's that have tried to fit a square peg in a round hole.... their dogs sat there watching in shock.](*,)


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