# Pups in multi-dog households



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Been told I should keep my working dogs separate from each other and my pet dog, but wondering just how much of a difference it makes.

The theory, is, as I've been told, that allowing a working pup to interact with other dogs will cause him/her to bond more closely to dogs and not be as willing or driven to work for the handler. Depriving the puppy of outlets with other dogs makes the handler the centre of the pup's universe. I can't help but think that 'dog social' is as much a part of a dogs genetic makeup as 'dog aggressive'. Can that be changed much?

My very limited personal experience has been that it doesn't make much difference - at least to me. Looking at my own dogs, my Mal will happily blow off the other dogs to do anything with me. He still has buckets of drive at training, too. Even the DS pup prefers to play with me, though she happily will run and wrestle with the Mal if I'm not outside with them. Giving her more access to my other dogs - ie less crate time and more free house time, seemed to increase her desire to interact with me. 

Perhaps it would make a difference if I was truly interested in raising a top competition dog to the exclusion of everything else - like having a dog I like to hang out with, too, or not? 

I allow my dogs to be together because I don't have the means or desire to keep them separate, just wondering if it really matters and what other people's experience has been with multiple dogs.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If your dog likes the work, then I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I am keeping my 20 week old separate from my five yo GSD majority of the time because its easier to manage the household. He's a pest. I'll have them out together in the backyard supervised for a very short time. Maybe when he's older and can be more consistent with his OB will I get them together in the house. But not now or anytime real soon.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm with Jeff on this. 

Although, I am curious to know if you were told this because of something performance related with one of your dogs or simply because people like repeating what they are told even if it's completely out of context. BTW, I lost my old dog last summer. She spent her entire life around other dogs yet would in an old, arthritic condition sleep on cold concrete or stop eating if I came nearby just so she could hear my voice or be closer to me. That's just the way she was.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Hey Nicole

I have been told by a couple of people at various times that I should keep my dogs separate from each other (and also that I should crate my working dog more) because that would make them better working dogs. 

I have also heard people say that when they get a second working dog/pup that they will not let it interact with the older dog. 

Just not practical for me.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My two GSDs are together all the time. Both are outside but I do keep a new pup insider for the first 6-7 months for house breaking and just basic manners. 
Who they bond to is up to you.
Something I've always looked at is when I take one out of the yard for training, then bring it back in where the other dog is, I want to see the "other" dog(s) come to me when I open the gate and not to the dog I'm coming in with. 
Something simple but it tells me I'm still the important one. 
I've always done this because I was also told the same yrs ago about "bonding closer with the other dog".
I've never seen it and I've rarely had less then 2-3 dogs together throughout my life.
Ii's just one of those wierd little things I still do. 
I think it can possibly happen with someone that doesn't have the leadership/respect from their dogs.


----------



## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

My youngest dog is in the house together with the two older ones. I walked him separatelytill last week and still do to some part as I feel he needs to deal on his own with "weird" stuff like pasing by people and orther dogs, farm animals in the field, cars without the security of his pack. As for walks together I recall the young one very often and reinforce him also when he decides to come to me without being recalled. However I do not leave my dogs together unsupervised, i.e. the little one is with me when I am at work. 
Like Bob I want my dogs to greet me and not the other dogs when I am back triaining one. 
I had once a dog (BC) that bonded to the pack more than to me on walks. Where I live there are too many dogs that do not listen to their owners and folks scared of loose dogs and the world's most stupid dog laws.
As for training the little one he can work with distractions like other dogs being loose in the field, could even have my other two dogs there it wouldn't bother him (just these two would want to work too).
As long you can recall your dogs from distractions and he loves training with you you're doing fine whatever the method is.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Good advice: Always keep them separate. A pup has to be independent and form his own character and this he has to do ON HIS OWN.

Also we always look for alpha type dominant characters and if you put those together it means trouble


----------



## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

What about an effect in maturity of the youngest dog? Being the youngest means lower pack rank, there is this other dog that is older and stronger and in one way or another younger learns to be submissive. She can for exapmle mature slower, can`t she?
Don`t know, maybe it is not a problem with strong temperament, but with less strong I`m thinking it may happend.


----------



## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Good advice: Always keep them separate. A pup has to be independent and form his own character and this he has to do ON HIS OWN.


Thats exactly what I was referring to


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

My dogs are allowed together time if I am present and keeping an eye on them. The rest of the time they are kenneled separately. 

The reason for this is because if I allow them to be together and not watch them, things can get ugly in a hurry since if one has something (could be a small stick or a leaf) the other one wants it and they will fight over it. 

The only unsupervised dogs that are okay are puppies and the hound...and it is not really unsupervised, I am out there and can see them. 

The indoor/outdoor kennels are next to each other and often I will find the dogs curled up next to each other through the fence....the older female Mal is separated by an empty kennel or in a kennel that has a barrier wall as she will get spun up and fence fight. 

If I could trust them all together to not bicker about the small stuff, they would be together more....LOL 

I do allow the puppy time with all of them, but this is on long lines and totally supervised as I don't want the big dogs, who like to play rough, to hurt her by accident and I don't want her pissing them off and causing an arguement as I am sure she would try to argue back. 

I did work her the other day with Doug walking my GSD around the area and she stayed pretty focused on me and only ran over when Doug first walked out with Ajay. I am working on her ignoring other dogs when they come by and so far it is going well. 

It is a matter of preference, but I think with the high drive dogs like this you have to be a little more dilegent in keeping them together.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Regarding Martine and Janota's last posts. It is pretty easy for a single dog to act dominate but it will never make him dominate. No matter how dominate he acts by himself, a marginal dog will still roll over when the chips are down so what is the point of isolating it other than for appearance sake? Kind of reminds me of the scene in that Richard Pryor movie when he is doing the strut into prison saying, "I'm bad, I'm bad".


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Regarding Martine and Janota's last posts. It is pretty easy for a single dog to act dominate but it will never make him dominate. No matter how dominate he acts by himself, a marginal dog will still roll over when the chips are down so what is the point of isolating it other than for appearance sake? Kind of reminds me of the scene in that Richard Pryor movie when he is doing the strut into prison saying, "I'm bad, I'm bad".


It's not about "making him dominate", all my dogs ARE dominant alpha types, period. If they aren't then we don't keep them. Put them together and there will be a huge fight, because they all want to be the leader. 
I don't like dog fights so I keep them separated.


----------



## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Turnipseed,I wasn`t referring to forcing younger pup to submission by older dog. Even if the older one is very gentle it`s more about the influence. Pup is learning to follow, to react alike (no matter how good is the bond with the owner there usually is still a strong bond with this other dog). She can learn both - good and bad habbits,she also can learn that under certain circumstances older one is a leader that solves the problem. If both spend all the time together.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sorry Maria, I really didn't mean to reference you by your last name....I was just thinking at the time.

Martine. my mistake, I thought the question was in regards to pups.


----------



## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

No offense taken Don, sorry for being mean:-#


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Don - you raise your dogs in mixed age groups, don't you? How do you think it affects their working ability vs if they had been raised as a single dog? Though they hunt in packs - so maybe its more ideal to raise them in groups?

Do you have to separate dogs as the younger ones mature and become more dominate to avoid fights?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Leslie, yes, I raise them in family units. The only ones that have to be pulled is the dominate male pups when I see them thinking they are big enough to try dad out...or one of the females is in heat. I used to have them pack bond, which gave me fits, but I did notice it was the less confident ones that always pack bonded. Having less confidence, they were more comforable with other dogs. From what I saw, if they have the need to bond with their own kind, they would have never made a working dog anyway. I never had a solid dog pack bond. 
The biggest difference I see with young pups and young dogs raised without older dogs to teach them, is that they seem harder to work to me. I have a female here that I raised in the house from a small pup just to observe a few things. It would take a better trainer to work with her because she doesn't listen. If I owned a shock collar, she would know what it is. People can't set the same limits on pups that parents and other older dogs can. A pup raised by older dogs learns what that growl is and they listen and pay attention because they will get rolled in the dirt from a young age if they don't listen. I have raised a few others in the house without their parents also and they are just a PITA. On the other hand, the 10 mo old laying here next to here learned very quickly that NO meant the same thing as the parents growl. I let the older dogs teach them manners before I take over. I think pups raised for a time with older dogs learn faster because they already learned to pay attention.


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I raise my dogs with a lot of smilarities to how Don raises his - I think when the dogs working venue involves having large groups dogs work together harmoniously in close quarters with other dogs in pretty stimulating or exciting conditions (sleddog, hunting dog etc) it helps to have dogs with good dog group social skills.


----------



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

if you keep them separate while they are young and impressionable that bond will be there forever
my shepherd was an only dog and we trained every day
now even with a bunch of crazy dogs jumping around and even on her head she focuses on me and wants to play with me 1000 times more than the other dogs
if I am not there she will play with the other dogs


----------



## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Be your own judge. If it works for you then don't worry about it. Everyone has thier own theories & so on. I keep my dogs together. A Boston Terror, DS and American Bulldog. They all get along fine and it has not hurt my dogs drive to work one bit. However.... He is VERY rough in play. He has to wear the big boy pants all the time and possess everything of course. lol I keep an eye on him when they are getting too rough but he is like your pup, he would rather be with me even if they are all running around, havin a blast. It sounds like things are fine with your pup. I have been told a thousand different things and had to pick the things which work best with my own dog. 
Have fun & enjoy. \\/


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Leslie, yes, I raise them in family units. *The only ones that have to be pulled is the dominate male pups when I see them thinking they are big enough to try dad out*...or one of the females is in heat. I used to have them pack bond, which gave me fits, but *I did notice it was the less confident ones that always pack bonded*. Having less confidence, they were more comforable with other dogs. From what I saw, *if they have the need to bond with their own kind, they would have never made a working dog anyway*. I never had a solid dog pack bond.


This is exactly what I mean.
I suppose it can be different for hunting dogs, but for ringsport we need a dog that is independant and functions on his own.
Therefore we look for the very strong character types. They live and work separately, because they all want to be the leader.
A pup is raised separately from the other dogs too, because like that we see very soon if he is strong enough on his own.

If I wouldn't keep my dogs for sport but just for pleasure and if they were tolerant to other dogs, then I wouldn't mind taking them for a walk together.
I did that with A'Tim and his son Fils when they both were retired. Tim was dominant to ther dogs but not hostile as long as he could be the leader and Fils accepted this, so they really liked each other and I enjoyed the walks with both of them together very much too.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Hey Martine

I completely get what you're saying about how keeping dominant intact males together just wouldn't work. I suspect that I will never be in that position - part of the reason for choosing a female for my next sport dog, aside from just wanting a female, was that she would likely be most compatible with my two males. (Both neutered, so no issues with hormones with them).

To anyone - Is it really that detrimental to the pup's or young dog's development as a working dog to allow them to socialize with other pups or dogs?


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

leslie cassian said:


> To anyone - Is it really that detrimental to the pup's or young dog's development as a working dog to allow them to socialize with other pups or dogs?


IMHO...no it is not. I choose to monitor and limit the dogs time together, but believe that some "together" time is good for them. I also think it is good for puppies to hang out with an older dog. Especially one that likes pups BUT will give them what for if they get out of line....


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> I also think it is good for puppies to hang out with an older dog. Especially one that likes pups BUT will give them what for if they get out of line....


i agree with this, I have had many pups that were taught some good inter-dog manners by older dogs, that were fair with them. it also has gone the other way with dogs that liked to have puppies hanging off their necks and heads...but be careful of dogs that will dominate the pups too much..


----------

