# Legal Reprocussions



## Marc Sanders (Jun 9, 2011)

I was wondering if a scenario occurred were I actually had to use a PPD in defending my life or another s life outside the confines of my own personal property what could the legal repercussions be for me and the dog? Would a court/judge care whether i was defending my life or not if the PPD ended up severing a limb on the attacker or worse case scenario kills them? I understand that PPD's are not trained to murder people but I could see how it might be possible in a life/death situation involving the dog,attacker and yourself. Would the dog be put down regardless if my life was in danger or not? If so then whats the point of the PPD if its intended use is going to result in it getting destroyed anyway? Does anyone here have a personal experience they would like to share involving a real world situation were they had to use there PPD against a human threat? What was the final outcome for you and your PPD? Maybe theses questions are more geared towards a lawyer but I was interested in getting a perspective from people with a knowledge in working with personal protection dogs first then going from there.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

you are wading in murky waters.

there is no straight answer to that - too many variables to make a coherent answer. maybe yes, maybe no, could be, perhaps, possible, yes, no, all valid answers to those questions.


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## Marc Sanders (Jun 9, 2011)

Sorry, forgot to mention i live in Westland, MI a suburb of Detroit. Found this after a quick google search. 




287.351 Person bitten by dog; liability of owner.

Sec. 1. (1) If a dog bites a person, without provocation while the person is on public property, or lawfully on private property, including the property of the owner of the dog, the owner of the dog shall be liable for any damages suffered by the person bitten, regardless of the former viciousness of the dog or the owner's knowledge of such viciousness. 

(2) A person is lawfully on the private property of the owner of the dog within the meaning of this act if the person is on the owner's property in the performance of any duty imposed upon him or her by the laws of this state or by the laws or postal regulations of the United States, or if the person is on the owner's property as an invitee or licensee of the person lawfully in possession of the property unless said person has gained lawful entry upon the premises for the purpose of an unlawful or criminal act. 

It does seem that dog bite laws vary drastically from state to state and city to city. I would love to get into PPD training but hesitant to do so if my time investment and money are all squandered because of a small group of ignorant people and stupid biased dog bite laws that originated from fear and a lack of understanding. I would still love to hear from anybody that has any type of personal experience with there PPD and the legal system.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Basically, you are going to jail for living anywhere near detroit. Pretty sure that is how it works, the judge will look at the evidence, see that you live near detroit, and send you immediately to jail.

I think I saw that on animal cops detroit. HA HA


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

JMO If you send the dog on an attack and had an avenue of escape or other option. For example some guy in your front yard with a knife yelling for you to come outside. Instead of staying inside and calling the police, you go outside and have your dog attack him.= you get in trouble Same situation and you call 911 and while you are waiting the guy kicks in the front door and you send dog on attack= you are in the clear. If the dog bites and guy gives up and drops knife and your dog chews on him for another minute or two= you have some legal problems guy gives up dog outs and does not re-engage= you are good Obviously laws vary from place to place and some places have laws to strict you almost cant defend yourself in any situation


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I recommend keeping a black mamba...most people are really scared of those..you can train it to rest in your belt loops, and it will be ready at a moments notice. Breed them in the house, and then if they kill it, you have more...You have to keep them loose and free feed them to train them properly to rest in the belt loops....


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Legal Repercussions*

As Adi said, there are no straight answers. I would personally think long and hard about getting into the PPD business but if that is the course you choose to take I recommend a hefty liability insurance policy ;-)

My day job is as a criminal prosecutor and I can tell you that no situation is the same but someone better have more than "I felt threatened" to back up the reason their dog attacked an injured/killed someone. Of course, jurisdictions vary on how they handle these issues.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

I can't imagine ever wanting to send my dog on someone attempting to attack me...I'd have more fun neutralizing the poorly prepared attacker myself.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> I can't imagine ever wanting to send my dog on someone attempting to attack me...I'd have more fun neutralizing the poorly prepared attacker myself.


We can't all be big bruisers ya know  some of us are normal (or in my case, slightly under average) size and faced against some "huge friggin' guy" it's nowhere near a fair fight. 

I can't answer the OP's question though. I imagine that in some places it's like any other weapon and in others it's more specific. Personally, a gun eats a lot less, is easier to hide, and much more effective than a dog.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Personally, a gun eats a lot less, is easier to hide, and much more effective than a dog.


 
Thats the ticket :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> Personally, a gun eats a lot less, is easier to hide, and much more effective than a dog.


so is a Black Mamba


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> so is a Black Mamba


 
The oh-so-versatile Black Mamba. The worlds most deadly belt. Or neck tie.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Calif has those "must be in fear of your life" clauses. What they don't seek to grasp, is..."I am in fear of my life if someone is in my house at 3 in the morning." I would have to be an idiot to tell him to leave or I'll shoot! I don't have to see a gun....it is a situational thing. I am not going to tell someone in my house in the dark I have a gun either. My place is an "I was in fear of my life" alibi from the time someone sneaks in because there is a gun within two steps of anywhere in the house. I automatically have to assume he has one of them. :grin: Oh, and my dogs won't bite so I am in the clear there.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> The oh-so-versatile Black Mamba. The worlds most deadly belt. Or neck tie.


this guy has no bio....obviously a troll..i can substitute a brown snake, or western diamondback...


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Yeah, but Black Mamba's are the only ones that come in "stealth"


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## Marc Sanders (Jun 9, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the responses, even the ones regarding the black mamba....lol. I have heard it is the only snake that will actually pursue and chase you in order to attack. After reading everyone's comments and doing some very light legal research, I think its clear that each situation is unique and that using a PPD to defend your life is probably best as a last resort. However, that being said I suppose last resorts are usually one of the first options when you literally feel like your life may be taken from you so.......yeah idk. 
As for the the prosecuting attorney who was kind enough to share his insight, I was wondering if a state law would supersede any sort of local city dog ordnance that is in place. ex: until 2009 Westland, MI had a "vicious dog" ordnance that had some very strict (and IMHO) ridiculous regulations for owning a pit bull. The state of Michigan I believe has no such regulations or breed bans pertaining to pit bulls. Although irrelevant now since the ban was repealed, if I chose to own a pit bull could I eventually appeal this through a state circuit court and make my ownership of such a breed legal? 
Ok guys no more legal talk i promise! and ill make sure I get a bio on here tonight or early tomorrow. Thanks again for everyone's responses. I'm looking forward to learning a lot more from you guys so in the near future I can make a smart and informed decision when I'm ready to choose a dog for PPD.


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## John Dickinson (Apr 28, 2011)

Here is some interesting reading on the subject.

http://doglaw.hugpug.com/doglaw_082.html


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Marc have you ever experienced a real live situation involving a hard core bite dog actually biting someone and doing what he is trained to do?


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## Marc Sanders (Jun 9, 2011)

No I have not but would greatly appreciate anyone sharing there experience with me and the rest of the members on the forum.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Marc, please post your required bio/intro. Thanks!

It goes here:
http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Marc have you ever experienced a real live situation involving a hard core bite dog actually biting someone and doing what he is trained to do?





Marc Sanders said:


> No I have not but would greatly appreciate anyone sharing there experience with me and the rest of the members on the forum.



I know that all the members of the board think long and hard about replies to a request like this.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh, and as usual, we'll reopen the thread when the bio is posted. Thanks! Just PM any mod.









opened


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## Roger Yost (Dec 26, 2009)

_"Marc have you ever experienced a real live situation involving a hard core bite dog actually biting someone and doing what he is trained to do?"_

_I was in a situation like this with a friends german shepherd that I work . He lives in a bad inner city section . A lot of houses get robbed . Me and him walk out to his yard with the dog and some crack head looking guy is coming out of his shed with hand fulls of his stuff . The guy drops the stuff and runs for the fence . He's wasn't as fast as the dog . When we got the dog off him he got up and climbed the fence .We never saw the guy again and nobody ever calls the cops in that neighborhood . LOL The guys leg and arm were torn up pretty good so I guess he ended up at some hospital making up a story how a strange dog bit him ??My advice would be to keep the cops and lawyers out of it !!!! They are not on your side most of the time just there to uphold the law whether it's fair or not ._


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I know that all the members of the board think long and hard about replies to a request like this.


Not me!! I know in Costa Rica live bites and cock fights are just another form of recreation!:lol:


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## Steve Groen (Aug 22, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Calif has those "must be in fear of your life" clauses. What they don't seek to grasp, is..."I am in fear of my life if someone is in my house at 3 in the morning." I would have to be an idiot to tell him to leave or I'll shoot! I don't have to see a gun....it is a situational thing. I am not going to tell someone in my house in the dark I have a gun either. My place is an "I was in fear of my life" alibi from the time someone sneaks in because there is a gun within two steps of anywhere in the house. I automatically have to assume he has one of them. :grin: Oh, and my dogs won't bite so I am in the clear there.


Don,

You probably already know this, but it's strict liability for damages caused by your dog in California. This means you can't mitigate civil damages for the perp's own negligent, reckless or intentional behavior. The long and the short of it is that you better "objectively" (meaning a jury of your peers would think so, too) believe you're in danger of great bodily harm before sending a dog on a bite, even to protect your own property. Otherwise, throwing around testosterone with a high fight-drive dog will see you in the poor house if not the pokey.

As for your home, if someone breaks and enters in the middle of the night, the California Homeowners Bill of Rights permits you to kill the perp if you're in fear of great bodily harm, again "objectively" speaking. Using a dog would be allowed in this circumstance. If he's running away and you kill him or send the dog, that isn't objective fear, you goofed, and you're going to be poor and you're going to prison. 

At a gun-range class I took a long time ago, San Diego Police once opined that if he's running away before you kill him, you better drag him back in and point him in your direction before the cops get there. (<= I didn't advise that, remember.)


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Not me!! I know in Costa Rica live bites and cock fights are just another form of recreation!:lol:


Yeah, outside of the U.S, particularly in the Caribbean, theres not so many legal issues. If a PPD bites you while you're trying to start some shit you don't get any kind of sympathy. It gets treated as what it is. A dog doing its job of protecting its handler/owner.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Marc suffice it to say ... it gets really ugly really quick.... and all the things people say they will do if a dog attacks them goes out the window. My dad used to always say "doing it aint like talking about it" .... that bit of wisdom applies here. 


I suggest other forms of self defense. But to each his own.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Marc suffice it to say ... it gets really ugly really quick.... and all the things people say they will do if a dog attacks them goes out the window. My dad used to always say "doing it aint like talking about it" .... that bit of wisdom applies here.


I'll second this, I know more than a few dogs that have engaged people for real in protection situations, including mine, the people did not do anything but scream and try to get away.


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