# forced enjoyment!!!



## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

just as a general quandary, i've been running with my dog in the summer evenings and she really isn't into it. i have to drag her through the first half of a meager mile and a half, and once she recognizes that we're headed for home, she really picks it up and i am finally pushed to keep up with her. i guess she prefers to amble on our usual 5 miles, mostly off-leash, and chase the critters and smell the smells and keep her own irregular pace but i really want her to run with me. is it too boring? am i asking for too much to add a mile and a half or two mile jog to our 5 miles? is it ridiculous to even care whether or not my dog is enjoying herself? i could put her prong collar on and make her do it, i suppose, but i thought she'd be glad to have another chance to cruise around the town. maybe i need some new territory to make it more interesting? please advise:


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I guess it depends on what you want. Some could say it's an OB issue and that you should be asserting your dominance by dragging her out for the exercise but I don't see it in that light. It would make it nicer if you both enjoyed the activity but unless you really want her there I would probably not take her. That's just me. I've got one dog who loves to amble around the neighborhood but give him the option of an off-leash run in the woods and he would rather sit home on his pillows.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

given the two ways you take her out i could see why she would prefer the off lead rambling ... most any dog would
...like in "the grass is always greener" etc etc

you might consider deleting the off lead rambling stuff until she learns that won't happen very often and then compromise on the forced marches rather than make it "your" distance that you have predetermined. almost sounds like a my way or highway approach //lol//

most all dogs i've been around love to run, but i have no idea what your dog's genetics are

i'd probably also do the running one way, AWAY, and teach her going back home will be at a walking pace with a few breaks to sniff the roses rather than allow her to start driving the bus on the way back 
- maybe think of it as an extended "cool down" after your run 

of course if any of this is not what you want to do, my suggestions may not be worth considering 

fwiw, i have the type of dog that would kill to run free, but that just can't happen where I live, and i'm often too lazy to take him out in the country. still, he gets super hyped anytime i get ready to take him out for a boring, slow, ONlead walk....24/7/365; night or day...and he still acts like he's enjoying living with us. I also allow him a lot of jumping and climbing for my compromise, so it's not all slow walking 

sorry, but i don't see any quick solutions on the horizon


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Not sure why a mile or two jog shouldn't be fun, unless it is really hot out or because the dog is hurting somewhere?


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

sorry to be so late in the appreciation of everyone's responses--the computer is my husband's and my daughter and i vy for time on it and we just got ABC Mouse for her to practice her computer learning on...she has taken over the machine! as far as my dog liking or loving to run, when she's off-leash she totally loves to race around in a blur, and then stop and sniff or hunt as the mood takes her but on a leash...yes, i guess i just have to accept that i either need to go without her or i need to put on the prong collar and make her accompany me. since my daughter is stuck coming along on the walks she too is doing 5 miles a day and i consider this to be exemplary for a 5 year old. we do two equal walks a day, the morning one is always on the Rail Trail near our house, off leash and in the shade of overhead trees, and we practice our OB and play fetch. the second walk is over various terrain around town and some of it is off leash if there are no other dogs around--i suppose i don't wish to take away any of her fun. i'll have to pick my battles or go without her as the particular day determines.
thanx for all the input, everyone!!!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok I'm gonna tell you how to solve this and as long as you have a game she like playing like two tugs or a game of ball it will not fail.
Have a destination, a park or a field, which you always end up at to play the game. You will be asking how to slow her down later on.
This was half the battle with Sali, she had it in her head that we were always going somewhere and that somewhere involved a ball or a tug, because it did.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I wonder whether this is a "bitch" thing.

In England we had two Jack Russells. Dad called them when he was ready to start out on the walk and only the dog came. I nearly had to "kick" the female out of the door. There was nothing physically wrong with her, she was even faster than the dog when racing round the garden.

I would have the dog checked out for health and if this is ok would follow suggestions such as Matt has suggested.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

we have just been to the vet for a Distemper booster and a new Rabies vacc (and to get this superduper new digestible tablet for tick/flea prevention--it beats the pants off of Frontline!!) and she seemed in perfect working order. that being said, i didn't ask him about her abhorrence of jogging, so maybe i can just call in and see if he wants to see her back. she's a lean 67 lbs and is damn fast and agile--she's jumped to the top of an almost 9'stone wall for a squirrel this summer and kept on running after it, no pause taken. i think the destination play is a super suggestion--we carry a ball on all walks and i could up the appeal by bringing a kong just for mid-jogs. it would make me really happy if this worked, because i love the experience of running with my dog on the way home, when she's into it. besides, i'm more apt to go if the dog is looking at me with those eager eyes, expectantly, and ice cream weather in upon us in earnest...i need the running.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Catherine Gervin said:


> just as a general quandary, i've been running with my dog in the summer evenings and she really isn't into it. i have to drag her through the first half of a meager mile and a half, and once she recognizes that we're headed for home, she really picks it up and i am finally pushed to keep up with her. i guess she prefers to amble on our usual 5 miles, mostly off-leash, and chase the critters and smell the smells and keep her own irregular pace but i really want her to run with me. is it too boring? am i asking for too much to add a mile and a half or two mile jog to our 5 miles? is it ridiculous to even care whether or not my dog is enjoying herself? i could put her prong collar on and make her do it, i suppose, but i thought she'd be glad to have another chance to cruise around the town. maybe i need some new territory to make it more interesting? please advise:


Do you have an ipod or MP3 player with you when you run? Sounds stupid but if you do then try leaving it at home. Some dogs like the run for the attention and having an ipod or mp3 player breaks the connection between you and the dog. Its just an idea that I had based on my own experiance with Caylinn when taking her on long walks.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i'm afraid that i am a technological failure--i can't even figure out how to post a photo of my lovely pup to put by my name on this forum. if not for Pinterest and workingdogforum i don't think i'd bother going online at all and no, i totally don't listen to music while i run--though it is 100% more fun to have music while you exercise--because i fear i'd lose the device if my husband did get me one and then i'd NEVER hear the end of it. i'm eager to try the whole "kong play session mid-run" and see if that gets her going...in addition to appreciating the dog's ability to get more exercise out of me, the peripherals be damned because i cannot disappoint her hopeful face of "we're going out now, right?" i also like to think that anyone who sees us running isn't thinking how stupid i look but how beautiful my dog is and then i'm not self-conscious. this dog is not hurting for activity, it's mostly a selfish thing for me, but if the kong idea doesn't float her boat, it won't kill me to have to go by myself.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

All my dogs I ever owned loved to run off leash loved to run on leash even more. Unless they saw a pond then they wanted to jump in the pond. I looked at a female pit bull maybe 4 years ago she seemed to have no desire to run play or have any interest in ball etc. Friendly bitch did basic obedience but needless to say I did not buy her.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Catherine Gervin said:


> just as a general quandary, i've been running with my dog in the summer evenings and she really isn't into it. i have to drag her through the first half of a meager mile and a half, and once she recognizes that we're headed for home, she really picks it up and i am finally pushed to keep up with her. i guess she prefers to amble on our usual 5 miles, mostly off-leash, and chase the critters and smell the smells and keep her own irregular pace but i really want her to run with me. is it too boring? am i asking for too much to add a mile and a half or two mile jog to our 5 miles? is it ridiculous to even care whether or not my dog is enjoying herself? i could put her prong collar on and make her do it, i suppose, but i thought she'd be glad to have another chance to cruise around the town. maybe i need some new territory to make it more interesting? please advise:



Why would she want to run on lead after she's had the freedom of off lead running?

Try and do the on lead run in the beginning so she earns the off lead freedom.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Why would she want to run on lead after she's had the freedom of off lead running?
> 
> Try and do the on lead run in the beginning so she earns the off lead freedom.


it's true, she's pretty spoiled...we're going to do the mid-run Kong thing and if that doesn't help then perhaps we'll have to trim back the freedom-as-our-regular-routine, have it be a privilege again.

i appreciate everybody's input and excellent suggestions!!! i'll let you guys know how it turned out!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i don't believe the "reward at the destination" is a cure all ... you might be teaching her to stay amped and hyped until you get where SHE thinks she's going 
- could list a few other reasons, but since you like it, go for it and report back


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Ok I'm gonna tell you how to solve this and as long as you have a game she like playing like two tugs or a game of ball it will not fail.
> Have a destination, a park or a field, which you always end up at to play the game. You will be asking how to slow her down later on.
> This was half the battle with Sali, she had it in her head that we were always going somewhere and that somewhere involved a ball or a tug, because it did.





Catherine Gervin said:


> i'm afraid that i am a technological failure--i can't even figure out how to post a photo of my lovely pup to put by my name on this forum. if not for Pinterest and workingdogforum i don't think i'd bother going online at all and no, i totally don't listen to music while i run--though it is 100% more fun to have music while you exercise--because i fear i'd lose the device if my husband did get me one and then i'd NEVER hear the end of it. i'm eager to try the whole "kong play session mid-run" and see if that gets her going...in addition to appreciating the dog's ability to get more exercise out of me, the peripherals be damned because i cannot disappoint her hopeful face of "we're going out now, right?" i also like to think that anyone who sees us running isn't thinking how stupid i look but how beautiful my dog is and then i'm not self-conscious. this dog is not hurting for activity, it's mostly a selfish thing for me, but if the kong idea doesn't float her boat, it won't kill me to have to go by myself.


I was stumped until I read Matt's response and it was like "oh yeah, exactly!" I think Matts idea is a very good one, for a couple of reasons. I've always found with my ball crazy dogs, even just the anticipation of playing ball makes them happy, just catching a glimpse of the balls is a reward and makes them happy, so like Matt said, your dog will soon learn that the run ends with her favorite thing, but that's really key, you have to have whatever reward is very high value to her.

Beyond that, they will also start to associate the whole activity (the whole run) with pleasure, even if it's an activity they aren't completely enamored with, if they start to associate it with the ball, the attitude completely changes and the whole activity becomes exciting and fun for the dogs, not just the anticipation of what happens at the end. 

So my suggestion would be in the beginning, make sure she knows you have her "kong" when you start out. If you notice her starting to lag, see how she reacts if you just show her the kong, probably will bring her drive back up. In the beginning also keep it a short jog, (what she would see as short), play at the end, then gradually increase the distances. The other thing you can do is stop mid-way, play a little tug, then start back up again.



I also think this is a really good idea:


Bob Scott said:


> ....Try and do the on lead run in the beginning so she earns the off lead freedom.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "If you notice her starting to lag, see how she reacts if you just show her the kong, probably will bring her drive back up."

pro : yes, it will probably bring her drive back up
con : will also condition her that lagging brings out the kong
...simple operant conditioning. positive reinforcement INCREASES behaviors that are being reinforced

imo, no different than carrying a bag of treats with you and pulling one out when the dog starts checking out.

imo you should deliver/reward with the kong when she is doing what you want; not as a bribe to stop behaviors you don't want (lagging)

or do i have this OC thing backwards ???


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> re : "If you notice her starting to lag, see how she reacts if you just show her the kong, probably will bring her drive back up."
> 
> pro : yes, it will probably bring her drive back up
> con : will also condition her that lagging brings out the kong
> ...


I can only speak about my own +35 years of personal experience in the sport of schH with GSDs. This method was originally taught to me many years ago, ever since then, I've done this with all my dogs, it's always worked for me. We use it to bring drives up after a tough correction, during a particularly strenuous or tiring ob session, if it's really hot, even show it the ball just before entering the field for the ob portion of a trial (obviously the ball doesn't go on the field with us) there are so many applications. I have yet to own a dog who "checks out on purpose" just to make me show it the ball.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You can also think of it this way:

IF when a dog reacts negatively to thunder, the owner tries to "soothe" the dog, by petting him, stroking him, talking to him softly, "it's ok fluffy", that rewards the dog for acting negatively, he thinks his behaviour is exactly what you want, so the next time he shakes, cries, whatever even more, because you have told the dog this is what you want him to do.

IF instead when the dog starts to react negatively to thunder, you ignore the neurotic behavior, bring out his ball, start playing with him, make it a great time, eventually thunder will cue a different reaction, his drives will go up, he will be happy when he hears thunder.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Operant conditioning isn't the whole story of how organisms learn it is merely an explanation of one process of learning which has been modified into a tool.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I can only speak about my own +35 years of personal experience in the sport of schH with GSDs. This method was originally taught to me many years ago, ever since then, I've done this with all my dogs, it's always worked for me. We use it to bring drives up after a tough correction, during a particularly strenuous or tiring ob session, if it's really hot, even show it the ball just before entering the field for the ob portion of a trial (obviously the ball doesn't go on the field with us) there are so many applications. I have yet to own a dog who "checks out on purpose" just to make me show it the ball.


Ditto!
Once the dog understands that behavior brings reward then it's just a matter of building the time/distance element.
If it takes initial luring to get the dog up then so be it. It's just a matter of weaning off the lure so it doesn't become a bribe but a reward.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

it's too bad i can't just tie a squirrel on the end of a stick and hold it out in front of her--those little vermin NEVER fail to get her going at max speed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Catherine Gervin said:


> it's too bad i can't just tie a squirrel on the end of a stick and hold it out in front of her--those little vermin NEVER fail to get her going at max speed.



:-k:-k....:-o Roller skates, a good harness and road kill on a stick. Go for it! :lol: :wink:


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

alright, so we got a Kong Wubba because my husband dreads letting me into a pet store--i think it's a fair bet that no one else on earth can spend as much money in a pet store or grocery store as i can. department stores? clothing stores? nah, don't want to go, but pet stores? let me at em--and the base PX sold those. it is a squeaky kong covered in blue material with octopus tendrils at the bottom and my dog instantly loved/coveted it because it squeaked, was harder to crush than her other toys that squeak and mostly because it was a toy my husband gave her. we've been doing family excursions to the High School track to run lately, but last nite it was just the dog and i. when she and i went for a run she was fixated on the toy i was carrying so she kept a good pace for the first half really really well! i had a little park in mind for mid-run playing so we headed there and were five feet from the entrance when a dog on a tie-out that must be from someone new in that building ( because we've neither seen nor heard a dog there ever before) came rocketing to about three feet from us out of nowhere. my dog did her usual reactive "it's time to FIGHT and i will totally protect you from this strange mutt, Mom" and she ran at a diagonal towards it so very quickly that i tripped right over her. totally crumbled up on the sidewalk like one of the Three Stooges. yep. i was really glad i didn't drop the leash, but i did call my dog an idiot fairly loudly and picked my embarrassed self up and just ran us both home. i was bloodied some and totally annoyed with how it accidentally turned out and we didn't stop and play because i was worried that the distraction of the new dog right on the other side of the fence would be more memorable than playing. not how i wanted the whole thing to go, but i can already attest to making progress just having the toy along for her to see. tonite she and i are going to run again, and we'll go someplace else to play mid-run so that she actually learns that she gets the reward, not just sees it. i totally screwed up the whole experiment, but i'll do it right tonite and i have a lot of confidence that it will totally work!
gigantic THANX to Matt Vandart for his specific advice, too!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Catherine Gervin said:


> alright, so we got a Kong Wubba because my husband dreads letting me into a pet store--i think it's a fair bet that no one else on earth can spend as much money in a pet store or grocery store as i can. department stores? clothing stores? nah, don't want to go, but pet stores? let me at em--and the base PX sold those. it is a squeaky kong covered in blue material with octopus tendrils at the bottom and my dog instantly loved/coveted it because it squeaked, was harder to crush than her other toys that squeak and mostly because it was a toy my husband gave her. we've been doing family excursions to the High School track to run lately, but last nite it was just the dog and i. when she and i went for a run she was fixated on the toy i was carrying so she kept a good pace for the first half really really well! i had a little park in mind for mid-run playing so we headed there....


YAY!!!!!!!!!!! \\/\\/\\/



Catherine Gervin said:


> ... and were five feet from the entrance when a dog on a tie-out that must be from someone new in that building ( because we've neither seen nor heard a dog there ever before) came rocketing to about three feet from us out of nowhere. my dog did her usual reactive "it's time to FIGHT and i will totally protect you from this strange mutt, Mom" and she ran at a diagonal towards it so very quickly that i tripped right over her. totally crumbled up on the sidewalk like one of the Three Stooges. yep. i was really glad i didn't drop the leash, but i did call my dog an idiot fairly loudly and picked my embarrassed self up and just ran us both home. i was bloodied some and totally annoyed with how it accidentally turned out and we didn't stop and play because i was worried that the distraction of the new dog right on the other side of the fence would be more memorable than playing. not how i wanted the whole thing to go, but i can already attest to making progress just having the toy along for her to see.


Yikes....that could have ended very badly, glad you weren't seriously injured. Do you think she reacted because she was startled and the other dog was coming at her aggressively?




Catherine Gervin said:


> ...tonite she and i are going to run again, and we'll go someplace else to play mid-run so that she actually learns that she gets the reward, not just sees it. i totally screwed up the whole experiment, but i'll do it right tonite and i have a lot of confidence that it will totally work!
> 
> gigantic THANX to Matt Vandart for his specific advice, too!


I don't think you totally screwed up the whole thing, but good for you for getting back up on that proverbial horse and trying again. 

Matt is a good guy and knows from where he speaks! 8)


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

yes i am delighted that we have a plan that works. it's silly how pleased i am, actually, because we've been doing stuff about rewards for not reacting to dogs from afar and the progress is variable, minimal, and nonexistent when rushed by a strange new dog--she was surprised, and she did act aggressively, but she then refocused right away and we continued on our way without her trying to still get at the dog. anyway, this particular thing was an immediate turn around and that makes me super happy! yay!
thank you everybody!


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