# Drive or Stress?



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Hey guys,

I was wondering if some of the members here could share their insight into my dogs behavior during training? 


I have a 1.5 year old GSD being trained as a PPD, that is a little hectic and whinny before, during and after our sessions. He is eager to get to the back tie and is completly focused on the helper while we work. The tail is always wagging and he has no problem defending us or engaging the helper. His bite is deep but he growls/whines during the bite and very focused on the helper after the out (the sleeve is never slipped). After the sessions over and the heel comand is given, he trys to remain at the back tie as if he does'nt want the game to end. After a medium correction he heels, but his obedience is sloppy and he wants to go to the helpers run away/ hidding location. I work a combination of defence / prey work from the back tie and a little work posting. 

I get the same whine during obedience sessions when he's waiting for his reward (kong on a rope) and the growl when tugging. His obedience however is focused and not at all hectic. 


Thanks in advance for your input, the helmet is standing by.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Adam,

I do not train in PPD but I thought the foundation work was similar for all biting dogs. 

I do not understand why the sleeve is never slipped for him? I would think that the dog is stressing because he is never allowed to win. My TD would calm the dog and when he is gripping with out the noise etc then the sleeve would be slipped (to reinforce what you want from the dog).

My GSD used to do the same thing (he is very vocal and his prey work was hell to listen to as a puppy). Now he is pretty decent and I haven't heard that music from him for awhile. Also I don't allow him to make that noise during OB- we work on being quiet. 

I think it is drive leaking in my dog, but it did re-surface when we started working defense (I think that was stress). After a couple of sessions it stopped again.

The growling I don't know. I know it is a sign of stress for some dogs. Others are known for it (like Rotts).

It will be interesting to see what the others have to say.

Julie


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Adam, is there any way you could video the dog being worked?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

There should be two vidoes from last summer. Go easy on me this was our first session after bonding. I will post some newer video soon.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

I won't presume to tell you that your dog is or is not nervous.

I will tell you that I come from a background handling EXTREMELY defensive dogs, many of which hated bitework. They were "started" in much the same way it appears your dog is being started. All of them could have been in very similar videos.

I find that the strong dogs are differentiable from the weak dogs when the handler isn't present, and the dog is sent to a bite with the option not to bite. Or with a decoy with a lot of presence.

I don't know you, your dog, or your training. I don't know what has been done with him to date. It's very possible that he'll develop nicely. In any case, I believe you'll see his true colours (whatever they may be) when he's encouraged to work away from you a bit.

Edit: As an aside, not to blame you but it seems like you're gonna create a lot of conflict with your out the way you're popping him off the bite like that.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Adam,

I think your boys is stressed bc/ he is not getting satisfied with a carry or hold on the sleeve. He knows that the helper is going to take it away and that brings stress.

I don't know why you are not letting him win? Can you explain it to me?

Think about this. Every day you go to work and your boss is dangling a big bonus in your face. Every day you try hard and then right when you are suppose to get the bonus he takes it away and says you didn't work hard enough. I think you would start to bitch about it as soon as you got to work knowing what is coming.

Julie


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Julie,

Chert is my first working dog and I'm as green as grass. So, up until now I have followed the training methods of the group I trained with. I'm still looking around at all the different styles of training and learning different techniques to form a reasonable opinion of my own. I won't be able to give an in debth answer, but I can explain what I've been told and what I've read. 

From what I understand a PPD needs to focus on the helper/agitator and winning only comes from driving that threat away. I have only seen the sleeve slipped to the dog when the helper is getting the dog to re-engage the suit. I'm not saying this is the correct way, it's the only way I have been taught. The dogs are trained (including mine) more in defence than in prey which seems to contradict most of what I have read. 
Then again why would I question an experienced trainer and kennel that has letters of recognition from the RCMP and Corrections Service? 

I don't train with these guys any more because the sessions where to spuradic (they both work full time jobs). I still do a little bite work at my shop with one of my employees but just to maintain the basics. Your imput is greatly appreciated and if giving him the sleeve is the right thing to do with a PPD, I will try it. I just need to know if it's the correct thing to do.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jenn,

He has made some bites from a distance off leash and was fully committed. I would just like to find the best method suited to his needs and abilities. I'm not looking to make something of him that he's not capable of being, just a happy loyal guardian. Would you recommend a different approach to his training?

Thank you for your assesment and I hope I'm not asking to many questions.

Adam


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Thanks for explaining where you are at/coming from. 

Have you read the book Controlled Aggression by Jerry Bradshaw? Great book I highly recommend it.

The video was last summer and your dog was 8-9 months at the time? He is very young still. He looks like a very nice young dog (maybe higher on the prey side).

I will be intersted to see what the others have to say. I readily admit that I have no clue about PPD dogs. My back ground is in SchH. I have heard the foundation is the same/similar regardless.

What does RCMD stand for? You are talking about Corrections Services as in prisons and patrol type work? My dad just retired from corrections as an officer/and dog handler.

One more question for you. What are your plans for your dog? Is he going to be a canine officer, a home ppd or are you going to compete is one of the protection sports?

Thanks,

Julie


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A spin-off: What factors show when stress causes the drive to shutdown?


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Adam,

It is very common for trainers that focus on purely Personal Protection dogs to hold a different school of thought than Police and Sport trainers. Personally, I don't necessarily think it is bad, just different because your needs for the dog are different. 

Working primarily in defense will stress any dog. Slipping the sleeve in this case may or may not cause the dog to believe that he has won. When the dog views the sleeve as prey (as any sport and most Police dogs should), you slip the sleeve to allow that dog to win what he has worked for. When a dog is in defense, he is aware that the man himself is pressuring him and it is necessary for the decoy to allow the dog to "win" by acting as though the barks and bite are scaring/hurting him and the dog is capable of beating up this menacing person. The sleeve *may* have nothing to do with this. 

Since you have no plans for this dog other than PP, there is really no reason to completely re-structure his training. He will bite someone if they messed with him, it will hurt them a lot and the purpose of a PP dog is only to buy you time. If you really enjoy working the dog (and he looks like a nice dog) and plan to train him regularly, I'd recommend trying out some more diverse trainers.

I would definitely work on that outing method , though


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Good points Kristina.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

If you keep up with this sh*t training you will ruin this dog. 

It is clearly stressed and there are 2 sources. Not having a clear "win" and the pressure he is receiving from the handler (that is a terrible way to get a dog to out). If in the video he was only 8-9 months that what you were doing is pure stupidity. I would back off and work him in prey for the next few weeks to de-stress him. By the looks of it he is a good dog in the making but you will ruin him if you continue this type of training. Learn to alternate prey with defense work. You got to wait till the dog is mature mentally and a sound prey base before you ramp up the pressure. Looks like you jumped from step one to step 10 without a good foundation, not to mention a sh*t out. If you keep up this cr*p I gurantee you in real life he will run away rather than engage.

The bloody helper in the first video is putting too much pressure. He should learn to build the dog's confidence by backing off quicker, at least for now.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I see a nice young dog with good genetic grip, good prey drive, and a lot of stress that comes form the handling of the dog and the frustration of never getting rewarded. Of course it is impossible to learn much in two short video clips, but that is my best guess.
The dog does look nice though, I think letting him win and carry the sleeve will reduce a lot of this noise over time. He will always fire up at the bad guy with no equipment when you tell him to, so letting him have the sleeve will not hurt anything. I am actually surprised he has such a nice grip considering he knows that every bite he makes is useless since he will never win the sleeve.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks for the feed back, this is why I m here. I should have been more exact with his age, he is actually 12 months old in the videos and currently 20 months old. I never felt comfortable with outing him this way, it was what I was shown. He hasn't recieved this type of training since last October. We have been mainly working on the sleeve with a little defence. However, I think he is still being worked a little to hard after reading James's comments. 

This morning I put on the sleeve and made it a game with him. He was reluctant on the first bite, but he quickly got into it with me. I used "there you go" for the bite, the same command when he gets his ball. On the third bite he was'nt making any noise and I slipped him the sleeve. He released 10 months worth of built up hostilaties on that sleeve.... Wow. When he was over it, we did a couple more bites and I ended the session with a win. 

Can anyone recommend a good article or book for training the out?


Thanks for your help.

Adam


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## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Adam, this is what I meant in the PM I sent to you, if something doesn't feel right in your gut chances are it isn't so don't let anyone talk you into doing it.

I'll tell you what. Put the dog up for a month or so, and don't do any protection work with him. Play with him and "destress" as others have suggested. Don't let him see a decoy or a sleeve/suit.

In a few weeks, come by our place and let Mike do an evaluation of him. Mike will be totally honest. We'll both be honest about the training methods we'd rather see you using.

If you don't like what we have to say, by all means no harm, no foul. We all have to make decisions on our journey. If you do like what you hear, I'm sure Mike won't mind working with you a little. If you see the behaviour in your dog that you hope to see, we'll make a regular thing of it. If not, then at the very least you won't HURT your dog by anything you ever do at our place.

Regardless, best of luck.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> if something doesn't feel right in your gut chances are it isn't so don't let anyone talk you into doing it.


I learnt that the hard way. I also learnt that if a trainer gets offended when you question his methods, rather than taking the time to explain his methods, it's often better to walk away.

Another thing to watch for is trainers that are very convincing in justifying crappy training methods. It's easy to fall for a sales pitch.

Hope you come by in April, your dog looks like a nice dog, I look forward to seeing him!


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Omg! You guys are SOOOOOO entertaining!:razz: 

Whatever method you ultimately decide on....the decoy in the vid doesn't know what he is doing (either way). You are better off with a sport trainer (I can't believe I said that:-k) than someone like the dude with the sleeve. Between the decoy and the lack of good instruction on handling...that dog doesn't stand a chance.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Adam, your dog is not showing the picture I'd like to see in a dog that's being agitated for purposes of protection work. What I'm seeing is too much defense. What I'd like to see is more aggression. Basically although willing to bite your dog looks and sounds like it's fighting for his life. Since through all that he's still showing a strong desire to bite I'm leaning towards the idea that the dog is good but the training is poor. Still there are exceptions and some dogs can sound like that yet be plenty willing to engage the decoy.

I don't like what the first decoy was doing, he didn't give the dog any help, never responded to his displays, just more and more pressure. The dog didn't back down though and that's a good sign. I can't completely blame the decoy though because at some point in the training that should be nothing for a dog to handle. Maybe he just came in and was told to put pressure on the dog.

I wouldn't attempt to fix what I see with patchwork training. I would start the dog again from the foundation. I'd have to see how it responds to different training. I suspect that agitation was started with the decoy too close. I would work the dog from a distance for a while until I see the kind of intensity I like.

Kudos to you for posting these vids of what looks like bad training for everyone to see. There's few vids out there of dogs being worked defensively properly and poorly. Every bit helps.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I also have to say - if the puppy was only 8-9 months old at the time?? That is really bad training. They should not be worked heavily in defense til they are old enough to handle it. Must be a very good dog to not completely shut down.


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