# responsibility and accountability for live bites



## rick smith

this has recently been discussed, and i'd like to start a thread that looks at the whole picture and get past youtube video clips that go viral 

Q : should a dog who bites a human be killed ?
there have been comments that it it should and that the issue is black and white, but i say it's a lot more "grey", and i AM including PSD's, SAR K9's and other professional working dogs in this topic, not just loose pets
- feel free to answer in terms of a pet, but i also want to make this a working dog discussion and let the pros weigh in with their experiences and opinions

examples : 
1. a PSD who redirects on an innocent or friendly LEO
- i'm assuming they would NOT be killed under any circumstance and that it would be considered as a "Sht happens sometimes", but not interested in an explanation or defense as to why it happens ... we already know that :razz:
...but, should the handler be disciplined ? does this happen ? documented examples please. i'm interested in the responsibility and accountability side as it pertains to K9 LEO work
2. a sport dog who gets loose and bites
3. SAR K9's working off lead
4. family PPD making "mistakes" 

not all all interested in dog on dog encounters, just live unintended bites on people other than the owner


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## Faisal Khan

Well if the bite is a reward and the dog bites before handler/trainer allows then it is relatively ok and can be used in training i.e, minor corrective action = more training. 

If a dog bites a non bite reward object for example a kid or a passerby then there should be serious corrective action.


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## rick smith

Tx Faisal

want to keep the training aspect out of this thread and focus on the latter comment cause that's where the rubber meets the road.
- any example of what that consequence should/could be ?

i was out with a dog that bit a lady in the butt. not a penetrating bite and no damage, but i smacked the dog in the head and rolled it belly up in front of her. unfortunately, i think my "correction" just scared her more :razz:


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## rick smith

my point is that i feel strongly the dog should get the consequence AT the scene and the apologies and "pay backs" would come much later. i've seen people who hesitate to correct a dog in public because they are too paranoid about how it might look to other people around them. instead they just drag the damn dog away and thrash it somewhere else :evil:


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## rick smith

or they too concerned with consequences and spend all the time apologizing which results in the dog NOT being corrected in a timely manner with "serious consequences".

- especially bad (imo) for working dog handlers who have a fairly well trained dog that will "knock it off" with only a sharp leash pop. that may seem like decent handling to some, but to me the dog never gets the required message and i am totally against that approach


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## rick smith

the issue i always seem to be harping on, is that there are members here who take the approach that the victim, being "clueless", etc. etc, were asking for trouble and should therefore take some of the blame for what i would consider handler error and lack of control

my position has always been that no matter how clueless or ignorant, you should never blame the victim, no matter how much you think they might deserve it

and i KNOW my position is not shared by everyone here 
- not looking for agreement. more interested in what has happened and how it has been or should have been dealt with, etc


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## Faisal Khan

The term "serious corrective action" in my mind means the action does not re-occur. The actual action will depend on the dog and the handler's understanding of the temperament, it could range from correction to death.


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## rick smith

Faisal
you're either a lawyer or a prophet //lol//


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## Faisal Khan

rick smith said:


> Faisal
> you're either a lawyer or a prophet //lol//


BZZT, wrong.


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## Alice Bezemer

You are looking for clear cut answers and you know they don't exist since there is always a reason or a story behind each live bite.


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## Chad Spicer

+ 1 Alice
I think there are so very many factors at play with an unintentional bite. I've seen a bite as a result of a kid jumping off a small cliff and landing nose to nose with a dog. The kid, got bit in the face. Got plenty of stitches. This was in a park with the dog on leash. The handler / owner tried to react but the dog was all but forced to fight, at least I would expect in the dogs mind. A person fell out of the sky and presented itself nose to nose from nowhere. I would guess that dog reacted as opposed to thought. I am guessing the dog felt forced into survival mode. Had it been person to person there would have been an equal chance of somebody getting punched in the face. This dog was not put down and I don't feel it should have been. The owner / handler was cited for failing to control his dog however. By me. I felt bad about doing it but it was what it was. I felt the parents of the child shared some responsibility for letting the 8 yr old kid run about without supervision but sadly that's not always how things work out. 
As for LEO, so many variables. Did the handler send the dog when he should not have? Did Johnny cool cop bust in and do something stupid and end up getting bit? I've seen plenty of officers do plenty of dumb stuff. We're all human. Is the dog just an a$$ eating machine that bites whatever moves? Some people think that's cool. I do not. 
Ideally a dog trained to bite should not make that choice on its own. The dog should bite when it is told to / sent to bite. The warning is given, they had a chance to comply. If the suspect gets bit he earned it. But proper deployment still weighs in here, as do other officers doing something they shouldn’t do as well as just simple lack of, or miscommunication. Things get a little chaotic sometimes. If the dog is a liability and it’s unpredictable and or unreliable it should be taken out of service. Is it the handler or the dog? Is it both? 
I’ve also seen a dog that came to us that was going to be put down because it bit the wife. We are far from a rescue but this dog seemed too good to let it be put down. I still think that the wife did something to earn the bite but that is something else altogether. The wife got a trip to the ER. It was a pretty solid bite and hold. This dog is now a therapy dog that works daily in a nursing home and is enriching lives and making people happy. It most surely did not need put down.
I’ve been bit. The new sassy mal that wants to test me. The correction is swift and firm. It’s not personal but it is meant. It happens. It is corrected and it is not tolerated. These dogs go on with training and become great dogs. My current dog is one of them. He “tested” me more than once. I got through to him. We are great buddies now. But yea, I yanked a knot in his a$$ more than once.
I just recently got the end of my thumb stitched back on and lost the tip of my thumb bone from and accidental bite. It was 100% my fault. I made a dumb mistake and got reminded to pay attention. The dog got absolutely no correction and to this day has no idea that the tip of my thumb was ever in its mouth. My fault. I earned it and I owned it. 
There accidental bites, unintentional bite, and bites that are earned. Dogs don’t have thumbs. They use their mouths. Mouths have teeth. Not every injury by dog teeth should be considered a bite either in my opinion.


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## Ang Cangiano

Chad, that post was spot on!

Ang


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Chad Spicer said:


> The correction is swift and firm. It’s not personal but it is meant.


Great post, but this really stood out to me. I like it!

Laura


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## Ben Thompson

I think getting bit is a part of keeping dogs. Sort of like getting stepped on and bucked off is a part of keeping horses. I have been bit by my own dog yes. I always correct every time!


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## Bob Scott

I think how the dog bites will have a lot to do with it. Often a dog bite can be nothing more then a pinch or a grab but the person getting bit will automatically pull away and that's where a lot of damage is done.

With all the situations mentioned above it still comes down to the seriousness of the bite. 

In the video the bite was deadly serious. Not a nip or a simple grab. The dog gripped the kids leg and then shook the crap out of the leg. 

Biting a kid can make a lot of difference in any bite situation. For me anyway.


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## Jay Quinn

rick smith said:


> Q : should a dog who bites a human be killed ?


No. it depends entirely on the circumstances... 




rick smith said:


> examples :
> 1. a PSD who redirects on an innocent or friendly LEO


this would indicate to me a lack of training - both of the dog/handler team and those officers working around them, or that the dog who has been chosen is really not suitable for the role... 



rick smith said:


> ...but, should the handler be disciplined ? does this happen ? documented examples please. i'm interested in the responsibility and accountability side as it pertains to K9 LEO work


it depends if the handler had adequate control of the dog and took appropriate actions to prevent a "friendly" getting bit... if another officer has rushed in to take up a position beside the handler and startled the dog before the handler could react and someone got tagged, i would not discipline the handler... if the handler is working in a group situation and can see their dog is swinging wildly about the place and targetting all and sundry and not just the "bad guys", and does not make an attempt to calm/control the dog or at the very least shorten the leash to maintain physical control, then yes, i would expect the handler to be disciplined and for more training to occur as a result of both situations... there is endless possibilities for things like this to happen and it does happen where the dog will tag a friendly... and the blame needs to be placed on a case-by-case basis! i am not LEO but i have worked a civilian patrol K9 in multiple roles including crowd control for around 10yrs now... 




rick smith said:


> 2. a sport dog who gets loose and bites


again i would look at the circumstances - who did it bite and what was happening at the time? i would view most true "sport" dogs who are not trained to or expected to take a live bite in a similar way to how i would view a pet... 




rick smith said:


> 3. SAR K9's working off lead


single-purpose SAR K9's should not be aggressive in any way shape or form and one that has shown unprovoked aggression towards people should not be certified or allowed to work... i am currently training one of my dogs for USAR, he has done bitework in the past and would have made someone a beautiful sport dog, but i require a street dog and he doesn't have what it takes when the midden meets the windmill... there is no difference in his mind between playing tug with a rolled up towel and playing tug on a bite suit - the suit is just a bigger toy... if he were to encounter a victim who was not neccessarily happy to see him and be barked at and they got angry at him, i have no doubt whatsoever that all he would do would be to move himself out of their reach and not aggress towards them in any way shape or form... he can be handled by anyone, touched by anyone, and while he may give chase to a running person and attempt to herd them i have every confidence he would not put teeth on anyone in anger... he has been stood on by accident by others all he does is yelp, move away, and look hurt... if i had any doubts at all in regards to his temperment there is no way i would have started him with SAR training - but he loves to search and it's an outlet for him and one day we may actually be of some use if we manage to certify (it'll be me holding him back, not the other way around)...

but regardless of whether the dog has done bitework or not if there is any kind of aggression or uncomfortableness from the dog being around people (growling when being touched or handled for example) then it should either never enter into the program, or be cut from it... 




rick smith said:


> 4. family PPD making "mistakes"


this again would indicate lack of training and poor management - and possibly poor commmunication between dog vendor and buyer... it would again come down to case by case assessment... who trained the dog and how? how are the family managing the dog? are they fully aware of the dog's capabilities and cues?

there really are many grey areas and just because a dog has made teeth contact with a human does not mean it should lose its life... 

some dogs are just wired wrong, and need to be put down, and some dogs like the one in the recent video who has made a deliberate predatory action towards a young kid who had not provoked it in any way, i think should get the green dream....... there are plenty of other well-adjusted pets who have never even looked at a kid sideways who need homes... screw saving a dog that has hunted one down and attacked without provocation!


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## Gillian Schuler

Chad Spicer said:


> + 1 Alice
> I think there are so very many factors at play with an unintentional bite. I've seen a bite as a result of a kid jumping off a small cliff and landing nose to nose with a dog. The kid, got bit in the face. Got plenty of stitches. This was in a park with the dog on leash. The handler / owner tried to react but the dog was all but forced to fight, at least I would expect in the dogs mind. A person fell out of the sky and presented itself nose to nose from nowhere. I would guess that dog reacted as opposed to thought. I am guessing the dog felt forced into survival mode. Had it been person to person there would have been an equal chance of somebody getting punched in the face. This dog was not put down and I don't feel it should have been. The owner / handler was cited for failing to control his dog however. By me. I felt bad about doing it but it was what it was. I felt the parents of the child shared some responsibility for letting the 8 yr old kid run about without supervision but sadly that's not always how things work out.
> As for LEO, so many variables. Did the handler send the dog when he should not have? Did Johnny cool cop bust in and do something stupid and end up getting bit? I've seen plenty of officers do plenty of dumb stuff. We're all human. Is the dog just an a$$ eating machine that bites whatever moves? Some people think that's cool. I do not.
> Ideally a dog trained to bite should not make that choice on its own. The dog should bite when it is told to / sent to bite. The warning is given, they had a chance to comply. If the suspect gets bit he earned it. But proper deployment still weighs in here, as do other officers doing something they shouldn’t do as well as just simple lack of, or miscommunication. Things get a little chaotic sometimes. If the dog is a liability and it’s unpredictable and or unreliable it should be taken out of service. Is it the handler or the dog? Is it both?
> I’ve also seen a dog that came to us that was going to be put down because it bit the wife. We are far from a rescue but this dog seemed too good to let it be put down. I still think that the wife did something to earn the bite but that is something else altogether. The wife got a trip to the ER. It was a pretty solid bite and hold. This dog is now a therapy dog that works daily in a nursing home and is enriching lives and making people happy. It most surely did not need put down.
> I’ve been bit. The new sassy mal that wants to test me. The correction is swift and firm. It’s not personal but it is meant. It happens. It is corrected and it is not tolerated. These dogs go on with training and become great dogs. My current dog is one of them. He “tested” me more than once. I got through to him. We are great buddies now. But yea, I yanked a knot in his a$$ more than once.
> I just recently got the end of my thumb stitched back on and lost the tip of my thumb bone from and accidental bite. It was 100% my fault. I made a dumb mistake and got reminded to pay attention. The dog got absolutely no correction and to this day has no idea that the tip of my thumb was ever in its mouth. My fault. I earned it and I owned it.
> There accidental bites, unintentional bite, and bites that are earned. Dogs don’t have thumbs. They use their mouths. Mouths have teeth. Not every injury by dog teeth should be considered a bite either in my opinion.


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## Gillian Schuler

QUOTE=Chad Spicer;582361]+ 1 Alice
I think there are so very many factors at play with an unintentional bite. I've seen a bite as a result of a kid jumping off a small cliff and landing nose to nose with a dog. The kid, got bit in the face. Got plenty of stitches. This was in a park with the dog on leash. The handler / owner tried to react but the dog was all but forced to fight, at least I would expect in the dogs mind. A person fell out of the sky and presented itself nose to nose from nowhere. I would guess that dog reacted as opposed to thought. I am guessing the dog felt forced into survival mode. Had it been person to person there would have been an equal chance of somebody getting punched in the face. This dog was not put down and I don't feel it should have been. The owner / handler was cited for failing to control his dog however. By me. I felt bad about doing it but it was what it was. I felt the parents of the child shared some responsibility for letting the 8 yr old kid run about without supervision but sadly that's not always how things work out. 
As for LEO, so many variables. Did the handler send the dog when he should not have? Did Johnny cool cop bust in and do something stupid and end up getting bit? I've seen plenty of officers do plenty of dumb stuff. We're all human. Is the dog just an a$$ eating machine that bites whatever moves? Some people think that's cool. I do not. 
Ideally a dog trained to bite should not make that choice on its own. The dog should bite when it is told to / sent to bite. The warning is given, they had a chance to comply. If the suspect gets bit he earned it. But proper deployment still weighs in here, as do other officers doing something they shouldn’t do as well as just simple lack of, or miscommunication. Things get a little chaotic sometimes. If the dog is a liability and it’s unpredictable and or unreliable it should be taken out of service. Is it the handler or the dog? Is it both? 
I’ve also seen a dog that came to us that was going to be put down because it bit the wife. We are far from a rescue but this dog seemed too good to let it be put down. I still think that the wife did something to earn the bite but that is something else altogether. The wife got a trip to the ER. It was a pretty solid bite and hold. This dog is now a therapy dog that works daily in a nursing home and is enriching lives and making people happy. It most surely did not need put down.
I’ve been bit. The new sassy mal that wants to test me. The correction is swift and firm. It’s not personal but it is meant. It happens. It is corrected and it is not tolerated. These dogs go on with training and become great dogs. My current dog is one of them. He “tested” me more than once. I got through to him. We are great buddies now. But yea, I yanked a knot in his a$$ more than once.
I just recently got the end of my thumb stitched back on and lost the tip of my thumb bone from and accidental bite. It was 100% my fault. I made a dumb mistake and got reminded to pay attention. The dog got absolutely no correction and to this day has no idea that the tip of my thumb was ever in its mouth. My fault. I earned it and I owned it. 
There accidental bites, unintentional bite, and bites that are earned. Dogs don’t have thumbs. They use their mouths. Mouths have teeth. Not every injury by dog teeth should be considered a bite either in my opinion.[/QUOTE] 
I think a greater amount of the dog bites are unintentional, i.e. when the dog is in pain the bite is reactional. 

Untoward incidenes maybe (but shouldn't be) present to us:

A lot of handlers allow their dogs to play with children. If it's a ball game and the child attempts to retrieve the ball, the dog may perceive this as an attack on his "own possession".I enjoy watching children playing with dogs but am often alert to the outcome.

There is no such thing as a "toothless dog" and no such thing as a naive adult or a child who thinks that d

Dogs are just furry creatures.


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## Sarah Platts

Jay Quinn said:


> some dogs are just wired wrong, and need to be put down, and some dogs like the one in the recent video who has made a deliberate predatory action towards a young kid who had not provoked it in any way, i think should get the green dream....... there are plenty of other well-adjusted pets who have never even looked at a kid sideways who need homes... screw saving a dog that has hunted one down and attacked without provocation!


+2 I know many breed rescues will not take any dog with a bite history because the liability is to great when there are so many more that don't come with that baggage that need homes.


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## Gillian Schuler

I understand but it's a pity that the "bite incidents" are not investiaged.

A dog's reaction is to bite if plagued by a child, or in pain when at the vets. It's our responsibility to ensure this does not happen.


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## Gillian Schuler

Alice Bezemer said:


> You are looking for clear cut answers and you know they don't exist since there is always a reason or a story behind each live bite.


 You are right (as always) in my opinion.


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## rick smith

Tx for the responses

but i want to focus this thread on the R/A aspect
- what you would do if it happens
- what you have done when it has happened
- of course i know it "all depends on the circumstance". to say "it all depends" teaches me nothing new and i'm here to learn from others experiences

the one example i gave was smacking the dog on the head and immediately rolling it belly up. i paid NO attention to what the victim was saying or reacting since i knew it was not a penetrating bite. 
- i HAVE seen others spend more time apologizing to the vic or hurriedly backing off rather than addressing the dog

but since the vid was brought up again ...
it was a few seconds of video with NO other background facts at all, and I was assuming this was NOT a feral dog attack .... 

when asked why it should be considered worth saving, i gave a possible circumstance why the dog in the vid could have acted the way it did based on my experience with dogs, and I would be interested to know why my "hypothetical" is considered a huge stretch from reality and not worth considering
- is it because you think the dog behavior shown in the video clip could not have been conditioned by its owner/handler ??

- so far a few have watched it and judged that the dog deserves death
- or that maybe it was "wired wrong", etc
- or that it was hunting prey and considered the kid a prey item it wanted to kill
- or they've related other incidents with other dogs that they are comparing to this dog
- to say that a dog slinking around a bus and grabbing a kid was a dog trying to kill a human is a HUGE stretch of the imagination imo. fortunately it was EASILY scared off ... by a cat ... which also says something about how determined the dog was 

to me, these explanations seem "possible", but since i have seen lots of pet dogs hunt all over a house for kids and then "attack" them with their mouth involved, in full view and with full consent of clueless parents, my "hypothetical" certainly seems plausible to me. add a liberal helping of irresponsible ownership and you have this scenario when it happens in a different setting to a toddler with bare legs :-(
- i will definitely go to a customers house to observe their dog

actually it's not all that important what we think; I was just looking at the owner's responsibility in all this and to me that is more important than the dog since the dumb asses might get another one some day :-(

- beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and sometimes so is dog aggression 

back to the thread please 

for sure i don't think dogs should be killed just because they bite an innocent, but i always think the owner/handler has the primary R/A and need stern "corrections" just as much if not more than the dog


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## Gillian Schuler

"for sure i don't think dogs should be killed just because they bite an innocent" by Rick Smith:

What do you mean by this?


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## rick smith

Gillian, b4 i answer, do i also have to define innocent ?


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## rick smith

Gillian
a few things i would consider before passing final judgement 
1. age and training level of the dog. pups and young working dogs being groomed for protection related training often bite innocents
2. first bite ? multiple times ?
3. reasons for the bite ? food aggression ? territorial ? 
4. on lead or off ?
5. warning signs given or not ?
6. degree of grip ? bite/release ? bite/hold ?

could come up with a lot more, but is this what you mean ?


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## rick smith

whether the dog was stationary or if it took a run up b4 it bit would not be enuff for me to select the kill button either

and if i had the chance to evaluate the owner i would probably want the dog removed from them unless they stepped up and showed me above average dog sense. either temporarily or permanently


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## rick smith

fwiw i worked with young couple who had had a biter and they were planning for kids in the near future. i told them i would quit training with them if they didn't rehome the dog or board it full time with me if/when a pregnancy occurred


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## Gillian Schuler

rick smith said:


> Gillian, b4 i answer, do i also have to define innocent ?


In my my mind yes.

If a dog bites an "innocent" there is always the question of "why did the dog bite" or do you consider the "innocent" to be free from blame (in the dog's eyes)


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## Gillian Schuler

It's a simple fact - there should be no dog unintentional dog bites. An exception could be at the vets but they have muzzlss to contain the dogs that might react with bites in pain.

I live in a small village in a small country in German speaikng Switzerland.

I have my current dog on a long lead and ensure that he has enough exercise. I used to train protection, obedience and tracking with him.

When he is on the lead, a simple vocal command keeps him by my side. I could wish he could run free like he used to , but it is not possible. Training, i.e. tracking, protection work in club and obedience on our sports field helped.


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## rick smith

re: "It's a simple fact - there should be no dog unintentional dog bites."

sorry, but i don't consider that a fact. more like wishful thinking 

so, have you ever had a dog that bit a person it wasn't supposed to bite ?
if so, what did you do ?

- i'm not looking for generalities; as in "i gave it a stern correction", or "i made sure that was the first and last"


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## Alice Bezemer

Let me throw a log on the fire here... :lol:

My dog hates and I mean HATES kids in all shapes, sizes, forms, colors, lengths and widths...

He has never in his life interacted with kids in anything but a possitive way like playing or having fun. Thing is tho? We have a lot of kids around where I live and they range from age 4 to approx 15 and they taunt and annoy and harras and piss him off royally. They poke sticks under the gate, they throw balls in the yard, they kick the back of the shed knowing it will set him off, they throw firecrackers in the yard, they yell and scream at as they pass by hoping to get him to bark. These kids are assholes with a capital A! Does he go for them or growl at them when I am around? Nope, he tries his best to ignore them. He will launch himself at the fence at times and snarl in warning but thats because they poked him in the face with a stick from under the fence one too many times. Is he vicious in character? Nope! Is he a mean or bad dog? Nope hes a real sweetheart in everything... who hates kids! Would he go for one if he knew he could get away with it? Hmmmmm.... good question. I think if he got the chance, yup he might grab one of those little bastards to give them a good chewing on. Does this mean hes unsafe? Nope... Just means hes been pissed of by kids more then once and he has a memory that says to him that kids suck since that is his experiance...

Now..... Having said all that. All you people condemning that dog for what he did? I do not condone a dog biting a kid for no good reason, I do not condone a dog biting an adult for no good reason... I will however first make bloody well sure that the dog is to blame here instead of looking at a youtube video that shows a dramatic picture of something and that shows a 90 second outtake of something but DOES NOT TELL THE WHOLE STORY! Yup, I capsed you all! I didn't like what I saw in the video but I am not a person to go over one nights ice and declare it ready for skating either.


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## Catherine Gervin

rick smith said:


> the issue i always seem to be harping on, is that there are members here who take the approach that the victim, being "clueless", etc. etc, were asking for trouble and should therefore take some of the blame for what i would consider handler error and lack of control
> 
> my position has always been that no matter how clueless or ignorant, you should never blame the victim, no matter how much you think they might deserve it
> 
> and i KNOW my position is not shared by everyone here
> - not looking for agreement. more interested in what has happened and how it has been or should have been dealt with, etc


my father is an attorney, and many many years ago had a case involving a boy brutally mauled by a Rottweiler who ran through an invisible fence--this would have been right when the invisible fence came out and was a novelty, if memory serves. the boy had been one of a trio--the slowest of the trio, i guess--who had been throwing first snowballs and then snowballs with rocks at the dog in his own yard. when a rock hit the dog in the eye, it grew sufficiently enraged to attack them, blazing through the electrical deterrent of the collar and hauling after those rotten preteen boys. the one he caught was left with a mutilated face for which he required many bouts of plastic surgery. the dog's owner had been fixing some appliance in the basement and had not heard any of the commotion--the dog simply stopped on his own, allegedly-or aparently and then returned to his own yard, in the middle of a weekday when nobody else had been around to give a statement. the other kids reported what happened and since the dog had a livid laceration across his eye it seemed to be the truth. NATURALLY he was destroyed--chewed the face off a kid, yep, they destroyed him. 
none of this was the lawsuit. the lawsuit was against the defaced boy's elementary school because he was being teased/bullied for his rough appearance by other classmates and the school was doing nothing to help or protect him.
so all of this was my way of saying SOMETIMES YOU SHOULD BLAME THE VICTIM. it's not a "look how she's dressed, she was asking for it" kind of blame, it's a "if you poke a rattlesnake with a stick and it bites you , well, dumbass, don't you know not to poke snakes?"
pain is a great way of enforcing regret for stupid mistakes all throughout the natural kingdom.
i feel fairly certain that the kid who needed a new face manufactured for him through surgery upon surgery upon surgery learned his error in throwing rocks at dogs.
it may not be all his fault, but he is not innocent.
this is not meant to imply that all bites are what's due for foolhardy actions taken by stupid people, but that does seem to happen a lot when we're talking dog bites.


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## Gillian Schuler

rick smith said:


> re: "It's a simple fact - there should be no dog unintentional dog bites."
> 
> sorry, but i don't consider that a fact. more like wishful thinking
> 
> so, have you ever had a dog that bit a person it wasn't supposed to bite ?
> if so, what did you do ?
> 
> - i'm not looking for generalities; as in "i gave it a stern correction", or "i made sure that was the first and last"


 None of my dogs has bitten any human apart from the Schutzdienst helper.


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## Catherine Gervin

AANNNNDDDD, forgive me, two more dog bite tales, only one a personal experience, if i may: one, my husband finally let me get our current GSD because he'd had one as a boy and he still missed that dog. his had been a very big male who spent his life chained to a big tree in a back yard--so many things wrong with how his mom chose to "keep a dog", but i digress. the dog made a career of getting loose, wandering off, killing neighbor's chickens, chasing horses, etc but really loved his family's kids. not so much anyone else's...when older mean kids were chasing my husband and his little brother home from school he knew he only had to make it to his dog's tree and then that dog would be on the tips of his hind toes, at the bitter end of his chain trying to eat the kids chasing HIS BOYS. that dog was given away to the Officer sent to enforce a dangerous dog complaint when their dog bit the young girl cousin who stuck her hands into the dogfight to help get her Dalmatian free. she stuck her hands into the fray, somebody bit her, she claimed it was their dog and the County Sheriff came to collect the GSD to put him down. after meeting the dog--big, bored and beautiful--the Officer decided maybe he could just take the dog home, where he had a fenced in yard and no children of his own? that's what he did. essentially the dog was indeed seized and neutralized, which is what his task had been, but it didn't die. yay!
last one, promise, is my girl GSD who lunged forward with a fully bared mouth to bite a man who had slipped on some ice in front of his car and accidentally beached himself on the snowy sidewalk directly in front of my (then) four year old daughter. my dog loves anybody's kids, she's great that way, but more than anything she feels it her duty to take serious exception to how my kid and myself interact with people. this strange man flung himself like he was diving for a base and his nose was in inch or so from being in my dog's mouth. i would have had to move to Canada under the cover of darkness because there is no way i would have let her end up on the slab for biting someone over a mistake. was it my failure to control my dog? yes it sure was, because everything happened so fast and i was just in luck that her leash wasn't a smidgeon longer. should i have thrashed her for almost biting someone who wasn't an actual threat? probably. but i didn't. i hauled her right into my thigh and got her to make eye contact and told her "it's alright!! " to which she stopped moving to accost him, whoever he was, as he retreated to the other side of the street giving me a scathing look and ignoring the "i'm really sorry, sir, she thought you were trying to hurt us". i put her on a downstay and took a deep breath and felt very lucky, guardian angel lucky, and popped her prong collar when she growled after his vanishing figure. when i gave her an "all done" and we resumed our walk a man who works for the city approached us and said "I saw the whole thing and that is a fantastic dog you've got there". "ummm, thank you?" i didn't really know what to say, but he beamed at us and my dog stared at him, impartially waiting for him to do something other than stare.
that experience taught me that i really don't have a hold of my dog and her behavior and that she was my responsibility to protect from accidents and even her own instincts sometimes. i probably trust her too much, from naivety and hopeless adoration, but we work on it every day and i am much more aware. i was the stupid person in that almost-dog bite.


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## Gillian Schuler

Gillian Schuler said:


> None of my dogs has bitten any human apart from the Schutzdienst helper.


Sorry to disappoint you but I have always maintained control of our dogs, even if this has somewhat curtailed thier freedom.


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## rick smith

Alice
my guess is those kind of punks often start as little tykes who chase any pigeons that might be on the ground, or charge a sleeping cat :-(

I LOVE to see that action when i'm out with my house dog, and it's even better when they are with their parents who are usually standing back and smiling at how "cute" their kids are acting.

i will take a short run at them with my dog to make my point at how "tuff" they are acting and ask em if those animals were bothering them, etc. 

after they stop pissing in their pants, they get the message i explained to them, and the parents get it even quicker and try to avoid even looking at us //lol//

.... really makes me feel good but sometimes i wonder of it does any good. probably not, but sometimes i see the same kids and they are definitely acting a little more considerate....at least when they see us around


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## Jay Quinn

i am lucky that i have never been in a situation where my dogs have been able to have a go at a person while they are not at work... i manage them as best i can and do my utmost to make sure they are never uncontained, and the ones who would actually have a go are muzzled when neccessary... the one time a dog of mine DID get out due to accidental damage to the fence the neighbours simply took him back into the back yard and put him away for me... 

i make great efforts to ensure my dogs are somewhat social or at least more neutral towards strangers, and none of them would take a bite without damn good reason... someone else would be able to leash them and lead them to somewhere safe if the need arose, although they would not be able to get my old boy out of a crate if he was in one, and the youngest would simply stay out of reach of strangers if he got loose... 

at work, one of my dogs got off on the wrong foot with my late partner, and would redirect onto him at times... the dog was always muzzled at work and never actually managed to reach my partner, and was always given a pretty strong prong correction and told off... but in the dog's mind he was perfectly justified in his actions because a person who had (unintentionally) aggressed on us was too close to us or doing something stupid next to us - my partner was a total goof at times... partner eventually befriended dog and all was good...


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## catherine hardigan

Jesus H Christ, I don't know how some people here function in society with their animals. 

Charging at a bunch of kids with your dog? You deserve to get the cops called on you.

Your dog has major attitude about people who interact with you in public? That's a pretty messed up sense of "normal."

My dog is biking with me to work today... through town and onto a large university campus. She'll stay under the desk while I work, maybe we'll walk to an outdoor cafe downtown for lunch. In the afternoon we'll be leaving with a couple co-workers to go into the field for a few days, which is why she's with me at work today. Is she trained to bite? Yes. But my dog does not get to choose how she interacts with people. I do.

Reading this forum sometimes makes me wonder how breeders choose their owners... or if they just sell a puppy to anybody who shows up with cash in hand.

The bottom line is this: The general public does not view your dog the way you do. Right, wrong, or otherwise, you are responsible for everything your dog does. If you **** up, then there is a likelihood your dog will be put down. 

No dog is worth a human. If you think otherwise, then you are the same as all the "fur-baby" people.


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## rick smith

catherine 
re: "Jesus H Christ, I don't know how some people here function in society with their animals. Charging at a bunch of kids with your dog? You deserve to get the cops called on you. Your dog has major attitude about people who interact with you in public? That's a pretty messed up sense of "normal."

by any chance are you referring to my post ???

if so, you should have referred to me personally in your post and made it clear. 

BTW, we have about 40 local cops in our small city (approx 250,000). over 90% know me by name and know exactly how i handle dogs in public. I will often drop by the downtown "Koban" station to say high when I have a new dog and I am walking it downtown in a muzzle.

You, otoh, don't, and whatever you might be imagining in your mind based on what you read into my post .... is probably dead wrong based on what you wrote above 

back to regular programming


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## Mark Herzog

catherine hardigan said:


> ...
> No dog is worth a human. If you think otherwise, then you are the same as all the "fur-baby" people.


I've never before been accused of being a "fur-baby" or the same as one... I have no qualms about putting down a dog that needs to be put down... I only wish that the same could be done to some of the people I've met over the years... and I've seen many that have needed it.

You said "No dog is worth a human."

I disagree... I've met many humans that were worth less than the average dog.


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## jim stevens

Mark Herzog said:


> I've never before been accused of being a "fur-baby" or the same as one... I have no qualms about putting down a dog that needs to be put down... I only wish that the same could be done to some of the people I've met over the years... and I've seen many that have needed it.
> 
> You said "No dog is worth a human."
> 
> I disagree... I've met many humans that were worth less than the average dog.


Me too! I have seen humans (and kids) do some amazingly stupid things with dogs. That said, if I'm not sure of the situation, my dog is muzzled, at the vet, I always have the dogs head in my control, just because. I only had one dog that took a live bite, and that was my old imported dobe back in the 80's, when a dirtbag being chased by the LEO jumped my privacy fence and ended up with him, got 40 or so stitches for his efforts. In the afternoon once, he was making a lot of noise, I looked outside, and a couple of kids were teasing him, smacking my fence with a baseball bat as they walked by and laughing about it. I gave them an ass chewing they never forgot, which got me a call from Momma, I guess she thought teasing someone's 90 pound dog was appropriate behavior for a 12 year old. If mine had taken a bite under those circumstances, should the dog have been put down? My mali is really social, and loves kids, but if I'm not sure how she'll react, I muzzle her. It isn't worth the trouble.


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## rick smith

dogs getting harassed by people outside their yard is whole other topic and a royal PITA

i've had those problems with boarded dogs and also worked with customers who had that problem at their home. 

partly a CYA issue (using cameras), partly a training issue (is it fence/barrier aggression or real aggression?), and partly unavoidable

had a particularly bad case with a gsd who's house/yard was on a school route and kids streamed by to/from school. a few days of being there with their dog when the kids walked by put a stop to 90% of it. i harassed the kids b4 they got a chance to harass the gsd and also used it for some redirecting/recall work 4 the gsd. anyone should be able to call their off lead dog back from a fence IF the person is just walking by, but a dog who has been hassled is obviously harder to control. we also did some cheap mods to the fence a bit and that helped too. got the street crossing monitors to check out the area too and help. we didn't wait for parents to complain, we complained directly to the parents of the worst offenders

40 stitches is quite a mauling and sounds like multiple bites. if it happened to a non-criminal trespasser, it might be hard to save the dog, but still a situational judgment. laws on that are different here in japan


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## jack van strien

Mark, the statement you made will not look good in court if your dog happens to bite some one.
It is not only the dog who is involved but also the attitude of the handler,big brother is watching and anything you say on the net can be used against you even 20 years later.


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## Mark Herzog

jack van strien said:


> Mark, the statement you made will not look good in court if your dog happens to bite some one.
> It is not only the dog who is involved but also the attitude of the handler,big brother is watching and anything you say on the net can be used against you even 20 years later.


If you are trying to warn me to be careful what I say, then thank you for your concern.

I'm at that age now where I really don't care what others think of me or my attitude... it's one of the "perks" of aging 

If my dog bites someone then *I am responsible*... they are *my* dogs. 

If the bite was justified, then I'll defend their actions and suffer whatever penalties/punishments are handed out by "the court". I have no illusions about our justice system... it is not fair or impartial... truth and justice have long been forgotten. 

If the bite is not justified then I deserve to be punished... they are my dogs. I choose where they go, if they are muzzled, if they are on leads, if they are crated, etc.. Every choice we make has consequences... I don't blame others for my actions... only for their own.

Frankly I don't care what does or does not "look good in court" or what internet postings might be used during a court proceeding. If someone is attacking me and my dog bites them, the last thing on my mind is what the court will say afterwards... I need to live to appear in court . 

If on the other hand my dog bites someone without justification then I should be held accountable... regardless of what I may or may not have previously posted on the internet. My attitudes should be part of the "trial"... I believe in what I do and I won't try to hide my beliefs.


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## Angela Renee

There is a lot of grey area on this issue. A LOT.
I read through the thread but I'm probably going to repeat some things inevitably. 

The only thing that is black and white, for me, is if the owner doesn't trust the dog, it needs to be put down.

No matter the temperament of the dog, owner responsibility is a huge factor here. Proper containment when unsupervised and restraint (leash ...and muzzle if appropriate) when in public or even at home if there is a risk of unwanted behavior around vistors. Children and dogs interacting should be very closely watched and kids should be taught how to behave appropriately with them.
If someone cant manage those basics, they shouldnt have any dog, let alone a dog that is of a breed where biting is acceptable in some form (be it of guardian ancestory or a herding dog) or has a shaky temperament. If a bite happens and they make no changes to their routine or management, I do think the dog should be put down. Simply because they won't prevent it from happening again and a dog with a bit history shouldnt just be passed around from home to home hoping that someone finally gets things right, meanwhile putting people's safety in danger.

Since I mentioned breed, I think its unfair to put all dogs on the same pedestal. Obviously, its an instinct that has been bred for in some dogs and been bred away from in others. In any bull and terrier breed, I find human aggression to be unacceptable. I know historically man biters have been bred in the APBT but I don't condone it. With the intensity of these dogs, they are capable of doing extreme damage and with their reputation already hurting, theres just no room for error.

If someone wants to keep a dog that is potentially a threat to people, fine. If a bite happens, it's your fault and you sure as hell better keep it from happening again. 2 bites is just unacceptable IMO. Severity does matter. Theres a big difference between putting teeth on someone and drawing blood. Even a bigger difference between that and someone needing stitches or surgery. I think if someone is straight out attacked (dog latches on and shakes or gets in multiple bites) that dog should be put down the first time it happens. I'm willing to be lenient towards a quick nip but no third chances on that.

Scenario is important too. If someone is provoking your dog or threatening you, I think a bite can be justified. If a person comes onto your property witbout permission, even innocently, a bite shouldn't count against your dog. If someone is breaking up a dog fight I also don't think it would be right to report a redirected bite, assuming it wasnt negligence in containment/restraint on your part that lead to it. 

Having come from a rescue background, I've dealt with a lot of fearful dogs. I have a spot spot for them but I also know that there is an extreme where even the best care won't fix it. Severe anxiety and poor confidence thats genetic based is a disaster waiting to happen and also unhealthy for the dog to live with. If a dogs threshold is low enough to resort to biting under circumstances I would consider not all that stressful, I feel theres little hope. I can deal with a dog that shakes, runs and hides, whatever but if its first instinct is to resort to aggression I just feel like that's not worth messing with. 

My dogs sister was adopted before I got her. She lived in a home for years u til she was returned due to a bite. The adopter ran a child daycare out of her home and left her dogs unsupervised with the kids. The dogs were playing and their collars got tangled together and were freaking out. When one if the kids tried to help break them apart, she bit because she was scared shitless. She came back to the rescue and was adopted out again years later. All 3 dogs that we assume are sisters were very timid and part of it is genetic but part of it was lack of socialization. My dog has grown into an amazing companion and while still a bit if a nervous dog, she can live happily now that I've built her confidence up. If her genetics had been any worse, I don't know how much hope I would have had for her. As for her sister, I think it was the right thing to find another home for her as opposed to putting her down. Then again, maybe I'm too close to the situation to be unbiased. It was chaos with no adult supervision and I totally blame the owners for that. It could have been prevented. I don't see her as the type to bite under most stressors so I don't see it happening again. They are all 10 years old now so I should hope the remaining years are spent being happy pets.


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## Joby Becker

I think there are too many dogs period, and really dont understand the NEED that some people feel internally to try to save dogs that are shotty or dangerous.


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## rick smith

Angela

re: "The only thing that is black and white, for me, is if the owner doesn't trust the dog, it needs to be put down."
--- ???? first off, if the owner doesn't trust the dog, the dog probably doesn't trust the owner either. it's a bad match - change it; don't kill it. THAT would be what i consider black/white here

re: "I know historically man biters have been bred in the APBT"
--- really ? what bloodlines are u referring to ?

re: "If someone wants to keep a dog that is potentially a threat to people, fine."
--- please get specific based on your experience

re: "If a person comes onto your property witbout permission, even innocently, a bite shouldn't count against your dog."
--- please get specific and include the owner/handler side; not just the dog's

re: "Having come from a rescue background, I've dealt with a lot of fearful dogs. I have a spot spot for them"
--- first i don't think that many "rescue" situations are fearful dogs; at least not the ones i've dealt with. they are either wandering loose or were dumped for a variety of reasons that no longer matter at all once i get them  next, assuming you meant "soft spot", we also differ a LOT there. i don't want to get into a "how to rescue" thread, but i will say that one of the Worst things you can do for a dog when you "rescue" it is have a soft spot for it and give it any attention right away, and this is one of my major gripes with most rescue outfits. big hearts, good intentions but little dog sense

--- have you had a dog that took a live bite on a human outside of a training scenario designed for it to bite ? if so, how did you deal with the dog when it happened and what responsibility and accountability did you take for the incident ? 
btw, any degree of "bite" is sufficient here for the sake of discussion, even a bloodless nip. the lst think i want to start is a definition war on what is considered a bite 

--- anyway, that's the direction i would like the thread to go, but i realize they are hard to steer 

TIA


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## rick smith

too many dogs and WAY too many cats ;-)

but want to stay on dogs who bit people without a command to do so, and when responsibility and accountability should result in death for the dog.
- preferably from personal experiences


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## rick smith

actually, if the dog took a swipe at someone and only came up with an "air ball", please consider that a "bite" for this thread, rather than a "no harm no foul" call


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## Catherine Gervin

catherine hardigan said:


> Jesus H Christ, I don't know how some people here function in society with their animals.
> 
> 
> The bottom line is this: The general public does not view your dog the way you do. Right, wrong, or otherwise, you are responsible for everything your dog does. If you **** up, then there is a likelihood your dog will be put down.
> 
> No dog is worth a human. If you think otherwise, then you are the same as all the "fur-baby" people.


see here's the thing--i don't really like people that much. i want to, i try to, and i carry on in that hopelessly-friendly Midwestern outlook, but really i cannot wait to buy that smallish house on a hill with lots of fenced-in property so that no one i didn't invite can get onto my property. 
do i like my dog more than i like even some of my distant family? why yes, yes i do. do i like my dog more than i like you? absolutely. if you were downed, would i jump over your thrashing figure to pull gum off my pup's paw, or some other equally incidental thing and then i'd call 911 for you? yep. when i say "like" i mean value, care for, consider important to me, etc, and maybe i've slid from misanthrope to mentally unbalanced for feeling this, but my family is my main treasure and my dog is part of that family. my husband did not go to war to protect anyone but us and his fellow soldiers, even though the United States sent him and i do seek to be a solid member of our community but they're on their own and on the outside of our barricade should it turn dodgy. your opinion of "no dog is worth a human" is yours to bear but i think you'd find lots of people who'd do what they could to help their dog/ K9 partner against someone looking to harm them. i mean, a sinkhole or some lye in a pit and who's to say what happened to so n' so? or, there's always sneaking off to Canada in the dead of night. either way, my dog is worth a whole hell of a lot more to me than many many people sucking down oxygen out there.


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## Mark Herzog

catherine gervin said:


> see here's the thing--i don't really like people that much. I want to, i try to, and i carry on in that hopelessly-friendly midwestern outlook, but really i cannot wait to buy that smallish house on a hill with lots of fenced-in property so that no one i didn't invite can get onto my property.
> Do i like my dog more than i like even some of my distant family? Why yes, yes i do. Do i like my dog more than i like you? Absolutely. If you were downed, would i jump over your thrashing figure to pull gum off my pup's paw, or some other equally incidental thing and then i'd call 911 for you? Yep. When i say "like" i mean value, care for, consider important to me, etc, and maybe i've slid from misanthrope to mentally unbalanced for feeling this, but my family is my main treasure and my dog is part of that family. My husband did not go to war to protect anyone but us and his fellow soldiers, even though the united states sent him and i do seek to be a solid member of our community but they're on their own and on the outside of our barricade should it turn dodgy. Your opinion of "no dog is worth a human" is yours to bear but i think you'd find lots of people who'd do what they could to help their dog/ k9 partner against someone looking to harm them. I mean, a sinkhole or some lye in a pit and who's to say what happened to so n' so? Or, there's always sneaking off to canada in the dead of night. Either way, my dog is worth a whole hell of a lot more to me than many many people sucking down oxygen out there.


Well said! =D>


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## Angela Renee

rick smith said:


> Angela
> 
> re: "The only thing that is black and white, for me, is if the owner doesn't trust the dog, it needs to be put down."
> --- ???? first off, if the owner doesn't trust the dog, the dog probably doesn't trust the owner either. it's a bad match - change it; don't kill it. THAT would be what i consider black/white here
> 
> re: "I know historically man biters have been bred in the APBT"
> --- really ? what bloodlines are u referring to ?
> 
> re: "If someone wants to keep a dog that is potentially a threat to people, fine."
> --- please get specific based on your experience
> 
> re: "If a person comes onto your property witbout permission, even innocently, a bite shouldn't count against your dog."
> --- please get specific and include the owner/handler side; not just the dog's
> 
> re: "Having come from a rescue background, I've dealt with a lot of fearful dogs. I have a spot spot for them"
> --- first i don't think that many "rescue" situations are fearful dogs; at least not the ones i've dealt with. they are either wandering loose or were dumped for a variety of reasons that no longer matter at all once i get them  next, assuming you meant "soft spot", we also differ a LOT there. i don't want to get into a "how to rescue" thread, but i will say that one of the Worst things you can do for a dog when you "rescue" it is have a soft spot for it and give it any attention right away, and this is one of my major gripes with most rescue outfits. big hearts, good intentions but little dog sense
> 
> --- have you had a dog that took a live bite on a human outside of a training scenario designed for it to bite ? if so, how did you deal with the dog when it happened and what responsibility and accountability did you take for the incident ?
> btw, any degree of "bite" is sufficient here for the sake of discussion, even a bloodless nip. the lst think i want to start is a definition war on what is considered a bite
> 
> --- anyway, that's the direction i would like the thread to go, but i realize they are hard to steer
> 
> TIA


Sorry I know I didnt address a lot of the issues you brought up lol And I also apologize in advance for this post. I'm on my phone and it makes it difficult to break down quotes.

First, if an owner doesn't trust a dog, it doesn't always mean the dog doesn't trust the owner. Many times, yes, this is an issue and it can be worked on. However, if the dog is unpredictable in its behavior, that's something I wouldn't waste time on. Its one thing if you have a dog acting a certain way out of fear or because he doesn't respect you, that can be resolved in time. If you have a dog that is okay with someone one minute and the next its acting like it wants to rip their face off, and training doesn't help, I don't see the point in risking severe injury. Thats just me. Unpredictability is what I was referring to when I meant you cant trust the dog. I think this is a genetic issue. There are way too many good dogs out there to make excuses for one dog that will always have to be under lock and key or will otherwise be a menace to society. I know I don't want a dog that I always have to be cautious about.

Man biters in the APBT have been dogs such as Chinaman, Zebo and Bullyson if I recall. Im sure if I looked into it I could find refferences to specific events if you want. Ive heard from breeders about certain bloodlines throwing a higher percentage of biters than others but experiences differ from person to person. I believe I heard old Hemphill dogs were said to be nasty at times.

I don't have any personal experience with a seriously dangerous dog. My old neighbor had a bully mix that had an incorrect temperament (leery if strangers and lunging to bite) that only got worse after he bred her. His wife ended up taking her to AC to be euthanized. He had improper containment and she got out and terrorized the neighborhood. Given that I think its goodshe was put down before she hurt someone or someones pet. Had he kept her contained I wouldnt care if he kept her.... just wish he hadn't bred her and passed on those shitty genes to a new generation.

I'm not sure what you're looking for as an example or another take on someone entering your property resulting in a bite. If I had my dog chained out back and someone opened the gate and came in, unknown to me, and my dog became territorial, I certainly would not blame the dog. I certainly couldnt correct the behavior if I wasnt there. Nor would I change anything except for put a lock on the gate lol. Would I take financial responsibility for an injury? No. The person was trespassing and I would fight any kind of repercussions such as a lawsuit or destroying the dog.

Of the dogs I've dealt with in rescue, a good amount of them were fearful. Many were hyperactive and undertrained, yes. Others were perfectly normal, even well behaved but owners were moving, couldn't afford them, blah blah blah. This place I volunteered for was out in the country so a lot of dogs were strays that were void of human contact in puppyhood and even adulthood. So a lot of severely undersocialized dogs, like mine and her sisters, who weren't picked up until they were 7 months old or so.
Soft spot.... just meaning the dogs I'm drawn to. I like watching them grow mentally and achieve confidence. I definitely didnt coddle my girl. I know that's counterproductive. I spent a lot of time working on her and Ill even admit I did a lot of flooding with her which probably wasnt the best way to go about things but what's done is done. I made her face her fears and didnt let up until she calmed down. She works for everything she gets and has from the start. I hate bleeding hearts.... that's why I got out of rescue lol. 

I have never handled a dog that bit someone else on my watch. The closest I've been even close is when I was handling a rottweiler (mix?) at an adoption event that had a biting history. I guess I understood dog body language better than the other people there because he was well behaved with me since I corrected him for even looking at someone funny or getting really still. Maybe this correlates better to what your after. I made sure to correct small behaviors before they could escalate. I think that's important as a handler to recognise these signs so you can stop it before it starts. I also worked with him on his resource guarding. Everyone thought I was crazy for it, grabbing the bone he had and giving him a pop when he showed tension and waiting for him to let it go. I have no doubt in the wrong hands he could have been a menace but he was an easy fix IMO. He's dead now. Not even due to the aggression issues but health problems. 
So that's my take... apply corrections for the small behaviors that no one seems to even notice before a bite takes place and you can avoid the bite. If you don't and a bite happens, I sure as hell hope you apologize to the person after getting your dog under control. Its hard to say what I would do as a correction since I havent been in that situation. I imagine with all the adrenaline pumping I would probably hang the dog and put it in a down. I really don't know. But I would probably schedule for euthanasia after that.


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## Gillian Schuler

Sometimes I think like Catherine Gervin. The grief when my father died was surpassed by that of each of my dogs dying. It may sound odd to some, but my father was everything to me until I turned adult.

I do not think it is a good thing that we humans prefer animals to humans but, I can understand it.

As to the thread "responsibilitiy for live bites", I am convinced that this can not be attributed to a breed of dog. Neither can it, in my mind be attributed to a "nervous" dog. There are countless "well-balanced" dogs that have bitten humans because their owners have not been able to read the "situation". This has nothing to do with being able to "read" one's own dog - this has far more to do with understanding the canine as a whole, whatever breed it is. 

There are a nunber of situations where a profound knowledge of the canine in general could have saved a number of bites. 

A number of mistakes I made with my first dog, a Landseer (White and black Newfoundland). I tied him to a post whilst I went into the Library. My neightbour's child recognized him and went to stroke him. The dog growled. Why? He was guarding the post.

I repeat, it is not enough to be able to "read" your own dog. One has to understand how canines could act in various situations.

If one knows one's own dog, one can perceive how territorial it is. Thîs is one clue. Knowing how protective one's dog is of oneself, is another clue.

One obviously can often only learn from experience but that is at least something.


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