# PETA is really a PITA



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I'm still shamefully arguing with the minions over there. Anyway, they reference "studies" done by organizations such as the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. These people claim that hundreds of animals were studied and that thay all do fine on vegetables only. This includes cats, who need even more supplementation.

Soooo I'm curious if there are references to studies done by reputable organizations that either support or refute an all vegetarian diet.

Please, this is silly and certainly a waste of my time, so I am not lookng to waste anyone else's. If there's some quick reference that would be great.

The problem I find is that there are people visiting their forums that really want something good for their pets. SO mis-information spread around unfortunately hurts the unaware.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Can you post the reference in JAVMA? JAVMA's not an organization. The AVMA is, JAVMA is just the journal for it. I'm pretty sure the AVMA is not, in and of itself, doing studies on it. I'd love to see it. 

Cats as obligate carnivores CANNOT live without a couple things: taurine, arachidonic acid, and vitamin B12. All can only be derived from animal sources unless they are made *GASP!* synthetically! :roll:

Taurine is a required amino acid found in animal tissue, arachidonic acid is an essential PUFA and cats cannot make arachidonic acid out of linoleic acid (omega 6) like many mammals like humans can, and B12 is a required vitamin only in animal tissue (though I saw on one website that it can made from fungal sources?).


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

OK Miss Vet Student -- I wanna see how fresh that stuff is in your mind in 10 years from now


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I can't wait to see how much more she knows in 10 years.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You sure know how to make me blush. Or you're just trying to suck up for free information later on down the road. :lol::lol:;-);-) It's all good either way.

Ted, I forgot to add, in case you encounter it in your debates...obligate herbivores like ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, deer, etc) can indeed make things like vitamin B12 without eating meat, but it's the microbes in their rumen that does it. Obligate carnivores and omnivores like humans _must_ get it from their diets directly in the form of animal sources as neither we nor our pet cats have rumens.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

That's the kinda stuff I find fascinating. Be it about either people or dogs, it's really interesting. Thanks again for sharing.


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## Jason E Yergin (Feb 28, 2008)

I like this stuff too even though I don't understand all of it.

I'm curious about one thing though. Because most of the dogs and cats I've seen wont touch vegetables, even if they're covered in gravy or something. How can it ever be realistic to think an animal like these two could live on veggies alone?


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

If they live on veggies alone, it is because they are forced to. Pet food companies flavor with meat, and the corn based pet foots are so altered that pets don't view them as veggies. In the wild, you'd see veggie munching to avoid starvation, and it is a very temporary event.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jason E Yergin said:


> I'm curious about one thing though. Because most of the dogs and cats I've seen wont touch vegetables, even if they're covered in gravy or something. How can it ever be realistic to think an animal like these two could live on veggies alone?


All my dogs enjoy bits of red and orange pepper, pears, tomato, apple, and carrot (raw or cooked). If I'm eating an apple, I often eat a bite, then break off another piece, break it into parts and toss it to each of the dogs. I've heard of other people's dogs having a corn fetish in that they'll dig corn cobs with bits of cooked corn (or raw) out of the trash and start gnawing. They also like eating a bit of the tender fresh shoots of grass, like most people have seen dogs do. 

However...that being said, those should not make up the majority of the diet. Like corn in and of itself isn't always bad and if I saw it like 20 or 30th on the list on the ingredients (especially on holistic foods like Nature's Variety that add in everything but the kitchen sink in), I wouldn't be too worried. After all, wolves, coyotes, feral/pariah dogs, etc would eat grain eaters like mice whole and that's a lot of what mice eat. It's just when the majority of ingredients are grain based is what I don't like to see.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

If you want to wade through this you may find some facts that you need:
http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1h.shtml

I didn't read it, only skimmed it. While it's a raw vs cooked article I think it has some info that you could use. I know cats require taurine and I believe it's mostly if not completely available through meat items.

Here's a link from a vegetarian organization cautioning cat owners against vegetarian diets:
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/catfood.html


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Thanks for that Pauline. I'll carve out a little time and reqad that baby over. I like your new pic of the bubble eating monster!


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Here's more (can you tell I have a day off and am "playing" on the computer?)

Oh, and my avatar...it's further proof that Schutzhund training brings out the best in a serious protection dog! 

VEGETARIAN DIETS FOR PETS?

by David A. Dzanis, D.V.M., Ph.D., DACVN

Many Americans enjoy the vegetarian lifestyle today, either for health or ethical reasons. Some people choose to extend this dietary philosophy to their pets as well, which has prompted the marketing of commercial vegetarian dog and cat foods. There is a spectrum of foods and ingredients that may be included or excluded from a "vegetarian" diet, depending on one’s definition. At minimum, it usually means that most meat sources are excluded from the diet (such as beef, pork, lamb, poultry, and sometimes fish). More restricted diets exclude other foods of animal origin, such as egg and dairy products. Perhaps the most extreme example would be a "vegan" diet, where all foods and ingredients of foods, including vitamin and mineral sources, are excluded if they are derived from animals. Provided foods are carefully combined in appropriate proportions, vegetarian or vegan diets for people can be very nutritious and tasty. However, is the same true for dogs and cats?

To help answer that question, one must consider the normal anatomy and physiology of the dog and cat. Both species are in the scientific order Carnivora ("meat- eaters"), although today the domestic dog is considered more as an "omnivore" (animals that eat both animals and plants). Still, just by comparing the dentition of dogs and cats with that of humans and herbivores (plant-eaters, such as cattle and horses), it is readily apparent that their teeth are designed by nature for eating a diet largely comprised of animal tissue. Their short intestinal tracts compared to humans and especially to animals like sheep or horses also indicate that they are not designed to accommodate diets containing large amounts of plant materials. Their nutritional requirements, such as the need for relatively high amounts of protein and calcium, reflect these dietary limitations.

Cats are even more specific in their nutritional needs, emphasizing their status as "true carnivores." For example, cats cannot convert the beta-carotene in plants such as carrots and dark green vegetables into vitamin A. Rather, they require "pre-formed" vitamin A, such as found in liver and fish oils. Cats also need dietary sources of taurine (an amino acid-like nutrient) and arachidonic acid (an essential fatty acid), both of which are found in appreciable levels only in animal tissues. Thus, while both species can eat and utilize some plant-source ingredients (dogs more than cats), they simply are not intended to eat only plants as are other animals such as cattle and sheep.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

every time i see the TV ad for purina's Beneful or whatever it is that pounds on the notion that it's full of "salad", therefore good for you dog, i just get crazy!! talk about marketing to the ill-informed. and it's effective !!! makes me ill...


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