# E-collars



## John Masters

So I have been considering getting an E-collar to use as a training aid for awhile now. Since I have gotten Jager I have been searching for a collar that is made well, has multiple settings I.E. power settings and possibly a beep and vibe control, and a collar that will not break the bank (I hate money thus I serve the public and have animals so there is not much to spend). I know using an E-collar is not an instant fix nor something that should be abused, but I have seen dogs that have benefitted from the correct use of an E-collar. 

So who uses an E-collar and what brand would you use and recommend? what things do you like about your collar or why would you stay away from that particular collar? Your replies are appreciated.


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## Larry Krohn

John Masters said:


> So I have been considering getting an E-collar to use as a training aid for awhile now. Since I have gotten Jager I have been searching for a collar that is made well, has multiple settings I.E. power settings and possibly a beep and vibe control, and a collar that will not break the bank (I hate money thus I serve the public and have animals so there is not much to spend). I know using an E-collar is not an instant fix nor something that should be abused, but I have seen dogs that have benefitted from the correct use of an E-collar.
> 
> So who uses an E-collar and what brand would you use and recommend? what things do you like about your collar or why would you stay away from that particular collar? Your replies are appreciated.


Why do you want a beep and a vibrate? Both options are useless and mostly used as warnings fir people that still only use e collars for punishment. I now only use E Collar Technologies and I'm very happy with them. Find an experienced trainer near you so you can avoid making mistakes on your dog that can cost you


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## John Masters

I don't need both I have seen the beep or the vibe used as a distance "pager" to get your dog to look back to you without using a whistle or hollering. Other than that I really see no use in having the vibe or beep but if a collar comes with it I plan to play with it some.


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## David Winners

I use the Dogtra 1900NCP and have nothing bad to say about them. Dogtra offers good customer service as well. 

I have nothing bad to say about E Collar Technologies / Einstein either. I have friends that use them and are very happy with their performance.

These are the only 2 e-collar brands I would purchase for low stim work, and I would get a model with at least 100 levels of stim.

I do have a Sport Dog collar that I will use on a well trained dog as an emergency correction tool when working off leash. No way would I use it for training behaviors or collar conditioning.


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## John Masters

I have been looking at a dogtra IQ. I will look at the 1900


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## keith shimada

Do you have one you can borrow for a bit? If you can swing it, a month. The reason I say that is to give the dog some time to get used to corrections from the collar. Early on, dogs will sometimes react (or freak out) to a low level of stim. After a while they get used to the collar and you'll see how sensitive or not sensitive to the collar the dog is. 

You mentioned the IQ and 1900. They are far apart on stim power. The size of the dog doesn't make a lot of difference. I assume we're talking about a working dog, ie BM, GSD, Lab. A buddy has a medium Belgian female that is not sensitive to the collar. In drive, she can take 100 from the big Einstein and act like nothing is happening. He uses the 2300 now. I have a big male Belgian and he is very sensitive, reacting in the 30's on a 2300. Could I use the smaller Dogtra or either size Einstein? Sure. Both would be plenty for my male. I wouldn't use the IQ, because a few times I have had to go into the 60's on a recall off a decoy. I would've run out of collar with the IQ. If it was an emergency recall like he's running after another dog, with the IQ, it might get ugly. For me, the important thing is to get enough collar.

A dogtra rep once told me that the mid size collars are about 1/3 stronger than the IQ. The big collars ie 1900, 2300 etc are 1/3 stronger than their mid size. From what I've seen the Einsteins are just a bit less power size for size than the Dogtra's. It could be due to the Einstein's softer stim than the Dogtra's.


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## Larry Krohn

keith shimada said:


> Do you have one you can borrow for a bit? If you can swing it, a month. The reason I say that is to give the dog some time to get used to corrections from the collar. Early on, dogs will sometimes react (or freak out) to a low level of stim. After a while they get used to the collar and you'll see how sensitive or not sensitive to the collar the dog is.
> 
> You mentioned the IQ and 1900. They are far apart on stim power. The size of the dog doesn't make a lot of difference. I assume we're talking about a working dog, ie BM, GSD, Lab. A buddy has a medium Belgian female that is not sensitive to the collar. In drive, she can take 100 from the big Einstein and act like nothing is happening. He uses the 2300 now. I have a big male Belgian and he is very sensitive, reacting in the 30's on a 2300. Could I use the smaller Dogtra or either size Einstein? Sure. Both would be plenty for my male. I wouldn't use the IQ, because a few times I have had to go into the 60's on a recall off a decoy. I would've run out of collar with the IQ. If it was an emergency recall like he's running after another dog, with the IQ, it might get ugly. For me, the important thing is to get enough collar.
> 
> A dogtra rep once told me that the mid size collars are about 1/3 stronger than the IQ. The big collars ie 1900, 2300 etc are 1/3 stronger than their mid size. From what I've seen the Einsteins are just a bit less power size for size than the Dogtra's. It could be due to the Einstein's softer stim than the Dogtra's.


 If the dog reacts poorly or freaks out the collar is not being used properly, not even close. And the dog should not get used to corrections, it should be conditioned to understand what the low level stim means and should not be used for corrections until after the dog is very litterate to the system.


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## rick smith

you have a 6 month pup that is your first dog being trained for SAR, right ?

but since you have already been thinking about an Ecollar for awhile, i'm curious what probs you are having that have not been correctable that made you start thinking about an Ecollar ?

i'm not trying to second guess you ...
- i'm just interested in knowing what it will be used for. 
- for one particular problem, or all training in general, and do you have others in your current SAR group that are proficient and train with Ecollars ? that would be the first resource i would draw on
- if not, i would hesitate going out, buying one and "playing" with it //lol//

1. there are lots of solid Ecollars on the market. one brand is not "better" than others; mostly it's just that others develop a preference based on what they have used and become familiar with. 
2. it is impossible to explain the different stims of one brand compared to another in words. and even an old one will work in the right hands. 
3. it's the person pushing the buttons not the collar that is important, imo
4. and i have personally seen many well trained SAR dogs here that never wore an Ecollar, so i know it CAN be done //lol//


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## David Winners

rick smith said:


> 1. there are lots of solid Ecollars on the market. one brand is not "better" than others; mostly it's just that others develop a preference based on what they have used and become familiar with.
> 2. it is impossible to explain the different stims of one brand compared to another in words. and even an old one will work in the right hands.
> 3. it's the person pushing the buttons not the collar that is important, imo
> 4. and i have personally seen many well trained SAR dogs here that never wore an Ecollar, so i know it CAN be done //lol//


I'm going to disagree with this. The almost infinite variability of the Dogtra and Einstein collars allows a completely different type of training than the older style collars. It really isn't possible with 9 levels of stim.

I like the suggestion to borrow a collar. Instead of experimenting on the dog though, I would enlist a human helper and experiment on them. Once you get setting working level, your mechanics and timing down, and you understand the negative reinforcement part of training, then you can easily switch to the dog. Practice your exercise with a person. You won't mess them up.



David Winners


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## Nancy Jocoy

I train cadaver and have used an ecollar for a dog with a crittering issue a number of years ago. I don't have a fundamental issue with them and have considered - may use - but since most of my own training issues are timing and consistency related, (and not "the dog") feel I am not at a point where I would be wise to use one extensively. I would ask, why do you want to use one?

I have seen some dogs messed up with even low stim ecollar techniques to where their ranging behavior is pulled in "too much". Lou Castle certainly mentions this on his own page so care must be taken. Maybe this concern is less apparent for a competition dog than for a dog who must work offlead and independently with limited direction.

That, to me, is the biggest concern. Also if you are around a lot of field lab folks, and some LE, they tend to use them (from what I have seen and with corrections in general) at much higher settings than may be necessary for a herding dog. 

I do have an old 2000NCP with fresh batteries and just got back from QC checks at Dogtra. It is with a teammate right now who has a non SAR dog who has been running deer. You are not far away and, once she is done with it, I would be glad to loan it to you. I promised the NAPWDA MT who most recently certified us that I would 'hold back' before I used electric on my current dog as he did not feel we needed it. If you are interested, PM me-I will be seeing her on Saturday and can get an idea for her timeframe.


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## rick smith

re: my last...
i stand corrected  what i meant by old vs new is the 2 dogtras i have now. an old one with no LED and no vibe...it still works fine; vs a newer model with bells whistles and led dial, and an even newer double brick dogtra
- all can be used for the same dog as long as their neck can handle the weight

i have tried a few times to get a readout on what the "tapping" means for the new Einsteins, and how it differs from other pulses, but i guess i will have to buy one to find out. currently waiting for the new transmitter model

using it an a person might be a good way to go. i have had two people swap playing dog and handler to practice marker training. there are many simple drills you can set up
- but i would caveat that by saying the stim levels that humans feel are usually way above what a dog can sense, so i wouldn't base a setting for the dog based on the humans. 
- i also think a lot of times people don't take the time to really find out what the lowest setting is that the dog will show a reaction too because that takes time...result may be a higher setting than is necessary
** but many use it as a strong correction, so that part wouldn't apply to some systems of training since it fits in well with a trainer who is using a lot of physical compulsion

regardless, i always want to see how someone is training and what training system they are using b4 talking Ecollar brands. for me, the critical factor is not which model, but how the human will be applying it

still would like to know what the intended use is for, what your training system is, and what hasn't worked that makes you consider using E, etc 

fwiw, i keep harping on what training system is being used, because imo any tool works better when it is applied consistently and is clear to the animal.


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## John Masters

Hey everyone I'm back sorry I have not responded to posts for a couple days its been crazy at work. 

My dog is a 6MO Catahoula Cur. I don't have one bad problem with him that I want an Ecollar to break. With this pup I get "the finger" every now and then...not often at all really, but when I get the finger I could really use an ecollar to regain his attention without yelling or yanking on a long line. I don't get the finger rehularly and it is not always on the same command or after I have been working him for awhile. He just seems to completely lose focus occasionally. This pup is pretty tender and he really doesn't need a harsh correction, he gets mopey if I use just a bit too much on a verbal correction with regular OB.

I do understand how an ecollar can be used to ruin a dog quickly. I feel that I can probably compare working a dog with an ecollar to working a horse. Put someone on a horse with bad hands who yanks on their mouth constantly and you get a horse that gets stiff and fights you, put someone on a horse who nags their horse by barely pulling but pulling all the time and you get a horse that's dull, but put a confident rider who has good hands and better timing for their releases (reward for a horse) and you get a horse that is soft and responsive. I use the horse example because I have spent much more time working with horses than I have spent working seriously with dogs so I can better explain it that way.

I do have several team members who use an ecollar for their dog. Some to break game chasing and some for regular OB training like I plan to do. We don't get together as an entire group but once a month so I haven't gotten a chance to talk with them as much as I would like. 

As for "needing" an ecollar, I really don't need one. But I can see the benefits of using one correctly as a training aid. I will not be using the collar for another month or so because I want to give the pup a bit more solid in his OB training so I am positive a correction is warranted. 

I appreciate the advise of everyone who has taken the time to reply to my thread.


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## Steve Burger

At one point everyone in our club used Dogtra's. We had a 50% failure rate. Every single club member now uses the Einstein. For sophisticated use, with low stim and occasional needed correction the boost button is essential.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I had heard that from several ..... Someone here also posted einstein is going to a more normal shaped transmitter which may be a consideration before buying. Have not seen it yet, particularly if you wear a radio vest or harness.


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## Bob Scott

John, I'm not a big fan of the human connections like "stubborn" or "gives me the finger", etc. 
To me it confusion on the dog's part. 
I'm a firm believer in an old saying by Max Von Stephanitz. Not an exact quote but it gives the idea of what I'm trying to say.
"If my dog makes a mistake, or fails in a command or competition, or refuses to do as I ask then I have to ask myself, Where am I to blame?!

Thinking the dog is "giving the finger" can only create anger in your training and just confuses the dog even more. 
Not giving this for trash talk. Just something to think about. :wink:


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## Larry Krohn

Bob Scott said:


> John, I'm not a big fan of the human connections like "stubborn" or "gives me the finger", etc.
> To me it confusion on the dog's part.
> I'm a firm believer in an old saying by Max Von Stephanitz. Not an exact quote but it gives the idea of what I'm trying to say.
> "If my dog makes a mistake, or fails in a command or competition, or refuses to do as I ask then I have to ask myself, Where am I to blame?!
> 
> Thinking the dog is "giving the finger" can only create anger in your training and just confuses the dog even more.
> Not giving this for trash talk. Just something to think about. :wink:


 Much agreed Bob


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## Robley Smith

I need a new e collar and have been hoping the Educator/Einstein with the new transmitter would be available in time, but so far have seen nothing other than a post on this forum. I am probably going to buy the dogtra because I cant wait. Does anyone have any information on the new educator transmitter? I even heard rumors of a Bluetooth like device / finger kick as well?


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## Thomas Barriano

I'll stick with Tri Tronics, reliable, dependable and simple to use. I really like the looks of the new Garmin/Tri Tronics 550 coming out next month.


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## Ted Summers

the new einstein transmitter is going to be super cool and is shipping 6/1. The finger kick thing will be an add on later and works via a usb looking plug in you put into the back of the remote. That should ship last quarter of this year


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## Ben Thompson

I really don't like E collars...I will use them under certain circumstances. I'm yet to buy one. If I had a trainer that was pressuring me to constantly zap my dog I think I would move on. I think Michael Ellis has a pretty good method of training dogs with E collar but a lot of trainers don't and you can really screw up a dog with those damn things.


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## Bob Scott

I still don't own one or feel the need but if I did I would go with Michael Ellis's methods of teaching it.


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## susan tuck

Ted Summers said:


> the new einstein transmitter is going to be super cool and is shipping 6/1. The finger kick thing will be an add on later and works via a usb looking plug in you put into the back of the remote. That should ship last quarter of this year


nice!


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## susan tuck

I have a Dogtra 1900 NCP double box I bought last year and an old Dogtra 280 NCP double box I used for many years. I've got no complaints and Dogtra customer service is great. That said, a few people I know have switched to Einstein double box. I think I will probably end up buying one this year....most definitely if they come out with a finger kick!


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## Amanda Jones

We have the SportDog 425 and I'm happy with the way it works. It has a wide range of levels plus vibrate and beep functions. 
Our dogs are being put on the e-collar exclusively next month with the help of a trainer using the Sit Means Sit methods. It's an altered program used for police work though, not the traditional classes. I'm excited to learn it and get my dogs working with it, I've seen some amazing things come out of this program.


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## Ben Thompson

Bob Scott said:


> I still don't own one or feel the need but if I did I would go with Michael Ellis's methods of teaching it.


I've heard M. Ellis makes sure the dog knows the exercise thoroughly before the E-collar is added. He does not teach a dog to sit using a E collar for example.


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## Peter Cho

Robley Smith said:


> I need a new e collar and have been hoping the Educator/Einstein with the new transmitter would be available in time, but so far have seen nothing other than a post on this forum. I am probably going to buy the dogtra because I cant wait. Does anyone have any information on the new educator transmitter? I even heard rumors of a Bluetooth like device / finger kick as well?


The new transmitter will be ready for public sale in Aug 2014....maybe.

Secondly, the new transmitter will have three programmable buttons. great idea but would it be good for non super advanced users? probably not.
Third. the new transmitter will have a dial level control. not rhostatic 0-100 intensity control. For me, I like the 0-100 control. Each dog is so different and for different behaviours they have different threshhold so it changes all the time. This is why simply having a SET boost level is virtually useless like sportdog, imo. You need a floating boost as in the ET800TS. THIS IS WHY IT IS SO POPULAR for IPO trainers and those who train at high level. Looking away from the dog to change the setting on the dial while working your dog is very hard and when you have a leash, e collar and maybe a long line to manage, this task is nearly impossible. 

The current collar works perfect. The new one may not be as good in terms of HOW I train. 

In terms of the finger kick or blue tooth connectivity, I think they are working on it. But unless they come out with a two button ring, I would not use it. I would use it on a nearly finished dog that only requires very few stim. But on a young dog or a learning dog that needs constant stim all the time (VERY very low stim for learning to turn off), this ring would be not so useful. But who knows, I may find that the ring gives me more hands to work my dog.


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## Brian McQuain

Ben Thompson said:


> I really don't like E collars...I will use them under certain circumstances. I'm yet to buy one. If I had a trainer that was pressuring me to constantly zap my dog I think I would move on. I think Michael Ellis has a pretty good method of training dogs with E collar but a lot of trainers don't and you can really screw up a dog with those damn things.


 
You can really screw up a dog with just a leash too. Each tool has a job, when used correctly, gets the job done.


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## Connie Sutherland

Larry Krohn said:


> *If the dog reacts poorly or freaks out the collar is not being used properly, not even close. *And the dog should not get used to corrections, it should be conditioned to understand what the low level stim means and should not be used for corrections until after the dog is very litterate to the system.





Ben Thompson said:


> *I've heard M. Ellis makes sure the dog knows the exercise thoroughly before the E-collar is added. *He does not teach a dog to sit using a E collar for example.


You're right. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBb9PZ5SJrE


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