# Hmmm



## Gerry Grimwood

What do you think these people are trying to accomplish here ?? To me the dogs is confused by these mooks yanking him back and forth like a kite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-QdbxQmPx4&feature=fvw


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## Drew Peirce




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## Joby Becker

sound is covered by music...not sure....maybe the out.

I am pretty sure he still belongs to Rick Furrow. 
(A member of this board)

Why not ask him?

As far as your term MOOK...which type of mook were you calling Rick or Jerry Bradshaw, or whoever that is in the video?

this type of mook? (urban dictionary)

*Mooks are archetypal young males(teens-early 20s) who act like moronic boneheads. They are self centered simpletons who live a drunken frat-boy lifestyle(or are frat-boys). Examples can be found anytime someone watches "Jackass." *

or this type of mook? (Merriam-Webster)

*a foolish, insignificant, or contemptible person*

Either way, that seems like a pretty insulting label to me...


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## Gerry Grimwood

Joby Becker said:


> sound is covered by music...not sure....maybe the out.
> 
> I am pretty sure he still belongs to Rick Furrow.
> (A member of this board)
> 
> Why not ask him?
> 
> As far as your term MOOK...which type of mook were you calling Rick or Jerry Bradshaw, or whoever that is in the video?
> 
> this type of mook? (urban dictionary)
> 
> *Mooks are archetypal young males(teens-early 20s) who act like moronic boneheads. They are self centered simpletons who live a drunken frat-boy lifestyle(or are frat-boys). Examples can be found anytime someone watches "Jackass." *
> 
> or this type of mook? (Merriam-Webster)
> 
> *a foolish, insignificant, or contemptible person*
> 
> Either way, that seems like a pretty insulting label to me...


I'm calling them all Mooks and you can give that term any definition you choose.

To me, this is why people in North America will never stop importing KNPV types of dogs..especially the PH1's or 2's...not all but the majority.

They purchase these dogs because they are in awe of the program over there, bring them to this side and start training them like they're going for their SCH1 for ****s sake.

Breeding pups out of the ying yang just because of what they used to be or who they came from...it's a scam. You can't just buy a couple of dogs from a known background and breed with success instantly...otherwise everyone would be doing it right ?? Oh , I forgot they are.. snap the **** out of it.


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## Andy Deitz

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Breeding pups out of the ying yang just because of what they used to be or who they came from...it's a scam.


 
You think the genetics of the dogs changed once they came to America or what??


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## Mike Scheiber

teaching the out that work seemed ok the rest was shit keep draging him around like they are theres going to be so much conflict the dog will never think straight. Be nothing more than another mess of a dog


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## Andy Deitz

Im confused by what you think you see in this video...

What do you think you see?

I dont see a confused dog, or a dog being pulled around like a kite....


Looks pretty clear that they are teaching the out without having conflict between the dog and the handler...

Again, what do you think you see?

This looks like schutzhund training to you?

I really dont understand what you think you see....


How many times has this dog produced over here for you to say he has breed up the ying yang???


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## Gerry Grimwood

Andy Deitz said:


> You think the genetics of the dogs changed once they came to America or what??


If you thinks genetics are the only influence you should just go lay in the corner and lick your nuts.


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## Andy Deitz

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you thinks genetics are the only influence you should just go lay in the corner and lick your nuts.


I dont think I said that, I asked a question.


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## Andy Deitz

So this is a male dog, what kind of things is he going to pass to his offspring that are not passed by his genetics???


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## Gerry Grimwood

Andy Deitz said:


> I dont think I said that, I asked a question.


No, I don't think genetics change when a dog moves from one country to another.


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## jack van strien

Gerry, you are right.Genetics do not change,but unfortunately handling does.
Dog is way too fat !


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## Gerry Grimwood

Andy Deitz said:


> So this is a male dog, what kind of things is he going to pass to his offspring that are not passed by his genetics???


You are correct Andy, I apoligize...when I saw the dog biting at the leash held by the Mook that was dragging him away from what he was focused on I must have been confused...I suppose the only way to let these dogs know we are the boss is to have two people correct him in different directions almost continuously because he probably has never experienced this before and with this training he will become more stable and confident.

Back to your genetics question, doesn't really matter anyway does it ?? the dog will be ruined.


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You are correct Andy, I apoligize...when I saw the dog biting at the leash held by the Mook that was dragging him away from what he was focused on I must have been confused...I suppose the only way to let these dogs know we are the boss is to have two people correct him in different directions almost continuously because he probably has never experienced this before and with this training he will become more stable and confident.
> 
> Back to your genetics question, doesn't really matter anyway does it ?? the dog will be ruined.


The two lines and correcting into the decoy with a out and a reward bite will teach fairly quick the rest of what they were doing looked border line fuktarded stupid shit that was going on 20+ years ago give then 6 months the dog will be a wreck.


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## Bob Scott

Andy Deitz said:


> So this is a male dog, what kind of things is he going to pass to his offspring that are not passed by his genetics???



With all the tugging I don't think he's going to pass on ANY genetics the way that long line is ran between his back legs.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Mike Scheiber said:


> The two lines and correcting into the decoy with a out and a reward bite will teach fairly quick the rest of what they were doing looked border line fuktarded stupid shit that was going on 20+ years ago give then 6 months the dog will be a wreck.


Throughout the entire video, did you see the dog learning anything Mike ??


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Throughout the entire video, did you see the dog learning anything Mike ??


It was only a little more than 6 minutes these guys are far from wizards they will get it if they stay consistent by the looks of things. 
I don't train my dog this way, I have and I will train like this nothing wrong with it as long as the work is clear and consistent if it ain't done that way it ain't fair to the dog you start skirting abusive.JMO


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## Alice Bezemer

intresting Vid...again I got baffled on how people work with dogs...

Checked bloodlines to see what who and how but didnt tell if the dog has a KNPV ph1 or ph2 certificate...

First thing tho...dog needs to lose some serious weight....way to bloody fat!

secondly ? Yep looks like they are teaching the out in a ****ed up manner....now if this dog has a certificate im thinking whats to teach but like i said i dont know if he has a certificate....i will say this tho, this is not the way to teach an out ! expecialy if the dog already has a certifcate coze then it would know the out and you would elaborate on that and not start your own new way of teaching it...dog looks confused to me....and at some point gets irritated as well....he is learning something but if its the right thing hes learning ? i very much doubt it....wonder how this dog worked before....would be intresting to compare the previous to the new way of working (or in my view fkin up) but hey what the fk do i know LOL...


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## Dave Colborn

Gerry.

I know all three guys and have only seen the dog once in person. Haven't really talked with them about this video. They are working the out and a little grip work in there too. Should be pretty obvious if you have ever trained a dog to do any behavior what they are focusing on whether you agree with the method or not. They are repeating the behavior over and over, and it gets calmer mainly towards the end. I am sure you do the same whether you know it or not, in your chosen focus of OB. I'll ask at breakfast this morning how it is going with the dog and training.

What I see is the handler rewarding a good behavior, the down, with a bite. The decoy rewarding behaviors, the out, with a re-bite. And the handler ignoring some undesirable behaviors, biting the leash, not heeling, instead of fighting with them at that point in training. To me he looked like his grip was a little more full than when I saw him before, but it's a video hard to tell. The training was safe for handler, dog, and decoy. Dog was calmer toward the end with a couple minor blow ups in there.

What behaviors have you taught a dog? Please answer that before anything else in your post, to give everyone an idea of what you can do, not what you can talk about. Any video threads of you teaching an out on here? I seem to remember something you posted of a dog, maybe yours doing some nice behaviors, just can't remember an out session.

Would I do it the same? I don't know, I was not there, but probably similar. I have seen finished products of one of the three guys and dogs almost ready to compete from one of the others. They are good and thoughtful trainers and handlers both of them. He is a lot of dog from what I have heard. Brought in to be a stud dog, but getting worked as well.

The trouble with video is that we don't see the whole story. Has the dog gone from biting the handler down to redirecting on the leash, and two weeks after the video to heeling away from the jacket/decoy? On the way down in conflict instead of up? We don't know. Is the dog imported, yes. PH1? I don't think so, but I am not sure.

Is he fat? Yes. That you can tell from the video.

In awe of KNPV? I don't think so. The truth is Gerry, in general, their dogs are nicer than ours in Europe. There are good handlers and trainers here, but we import dogs from them because you CAN"T find them here consistently. It's a little known secret that I am passing on to you here. Whatever the cause, that is how it is. Better dogs consistently. You could find a few kennels here producing good dogs, but you won't find a bunch. Would you stop the import of KNPV and IPO dogs from Europe? Is that what you are saying?

You are illustrating a frustrating point that I dealt with that I am sure a few police handlers, and others on this forum can relate to. No matter who you are dealing with, Commander, Provost Marshal/Sergeant Major, Mayor, Chief, LT Sergeant, neighbor, etc. or who you were working with IE unit commanders on Health and welfares, Demonstrations, etc., I would always have a few that would try and tell me what to do or what they thought because their yard shitter, Fluffy, made them a SME (Subject Matter Expert) on Working Dogs. Dog = working dog. It got tiring calmly explaining how wrong they were in most cases. I had one Provost Marshal in that time that was a pretty good bird dog trainer. He helped me in a number of areas watching me work with my dog because he understood dog behavior, and gave me good feedback. He made having to listen to everyone else worth it. 

The danger of it is someone knowing less than you reading your post and believing what you say without objectively looking at it. Because you have made more posts than they have, etc..


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## Dave Colborn

Gerry.

Just had breakfast with Jerry who trains with Rick, the handler.

He said he felt like calling you a name, and came up with "Butt pirate, sans eye patch". (Don't know if i can say that here, but it seems in the ballpark with mook) I'll add no repeats. Now if we can get back to your agenda/post...

The dog is doing well in training, looking much better than when he came in and when that video was taken.


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## David Frost

I guess it's why they call it sport. What I saw was; the dog was being trained where it was ok to bite one guy while another guy caused pain. I would have loved to see the dog release the suit (except he's probably a bit equipment oriented) and bite the third person. Oh well.

DFrost


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## Dave Colborn

David Frost said:


> I guess it's why they call it sport. What I saw was; the dog was being trained where it was ok to bite one guy while another guy caused pain. I would have loved to see the dog release the suit (except he's probably a bit equipment oriented) and bite the third person. Oh well.
> 
> DFrost



Are you saying the dog should bite the one causing the pain?


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## Ben Colbert

I see where this is going. I cause pain to my dog and I'll be damned if my if my goal is for him to bite me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Breeding pups out of the ying yang just because of what they used to be or who they came from...it's a scam.

How many hundreds of times have we all seen "bob" PH1 with devastating entries bred to "sally" PH2 met lof and the puppies come and go and are never ever heard from again ? I have seen it for about 10 years now.

Dick probably ( I don't know) said it best with his bunghole word about the dutch shepherd in the US. LOL 

Fat dog, bad line handling, and the dog is looking at the handler funny.

I also think that someone knows these people but hasn't the guts to say that he does. HA HA HA I hope they see this thread !



David, I would have loved to see the dog nail someone. The dog has a nice entry, too bad he is targeted to the elbow area. Weak.


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## Mike Jones

I don't see anything unusual in the training. They are teaching the dog to out with a two line method. I've seen this done in Schutzhund with a sleeve using two lines but the helper has one line and the handler has the other. Here I guess it would be difficult for the decoy to handle the line while trying to give an upper bicep bite. I personally would have taught the dog to out on the sleeve before moving him to a suit...but that's just me. 

This dog is a Malinois, I'm guessing and if so, he's definitely on the fat side. I like to see ribs in my dogs. Maybe that's why he's moving so slow.

I really don't like to judge a dog on a training video because its just a small snapshot of a work in progress. Training videos are great to watch to see what you need to work on in the future. I like to see videos of more progressive work before I judge a dog.


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## Rick Furrow

Well ....

First I'll answer the fat thing. He was right at 100 pounds when imported from Holland and now he is in the high 80's low 90's. So by math he is lighter than when I got him. He is a thick dog but I don't think he's fat. Very athletic as a matter of fact.

Second when the dog was imported and due to the wonderful KNPV training and outing procedures he would out based on time. He was also outed the old fashioned way over there so he was always anticipating that. In the grand scheme of things his out went away because I had to fix his gripping and not outing on the clock. In order to mend the previous out issues I had to not out him for an extended period of time. So anyone who trains dogs will understand that without outing the out goes away. That was about six months of no outs. This was the first attempt at regaining his out. I have to be careful because if I continually work on the out he begins anticipating again. Admittedly there should have been two collars on the dog one for me and one for Jerry. Mine a flat and his the prong. We werent pulling in two different directions I was clipped to the same line thats it. As for the not wanting to heel away from the decoy, he has always done that from day one here from Holland. He was not a titled dog and after handling him I don't think he was really close. Not wanting to leave the decoy is a product of KNPV. They always guard always.... He was not finished and the heeeling away was not incorporated. He is a very difficult to train in that he is very hard on the decoys and very defiant to the handler. He is a handlful at all times because his drive is off the chart. He struggles to maintain clarity when there is a suit on the field or if he even thinks there is a bite possibly coming. The dog is wound up all the time. I ignore the leash biting and it does calm down after a bit but admitedly it is a pain and I hate it. Most people would never even attempt to handle or trian this dog. They would stash him away somewhere and not work him or he would be sold over and over again. I like him and he is a rediculously driven hammer of a dog. I have had to put tremendous amounts of time into the dog to get him at a level where he would calm down to work. He is a dog that has been bred in Holland and now once here. The man who bred him in Holland was happy with the offspring and the breeding here was excellent. Crucify me if you'd like but he is an exceptional dog with some training issues. 

Lastly its been months since that video and if anyone believes he is ruined I will be more than willing to let that person put a suit on and work him. Predictions were that he would be ruined and if in fact I did ruin him I'd like one of the people who believe that to come show me. Just a warning his out is a little further along than in the video but I'm not guaranteeing he will out. If someone would like a shot at handling him I can let them try that also if they'd like to show me how good they are. Internet video dog trainers crack me up and I find it disgraceful that I had to come here and explain myself because someone took a video off the internet of me training that I didnt record mind you and put it on the internet smashing myself and Jerry. Such a small community(working dog people) and so much jealousy and bickering. I would never do that but I get it ....I get it,,,I don't understand it but ...I get it. Either way her is my experience with Yaro. I'm sure the wise ones on here have another story or method that they believe suits him better. Some no pain method like outing him for food or something. I'm sure it would work great with him (yeah right) but Its not for me. No pain training might just be the wave of the future. I'll stick to what works for me and what has worked for several non outing dogs and you guys can stick to discussing it on the internet.

Thanks for the unwanted input/bashing I wish everyone well.

Rick Furrow


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## Rick Furrow

And a police trainer /board moderator gets involved in the bashing.....WOW

He probably wouldn't be a good police dog because you cant play with objects with him so his detection wouldnt work out. We arent going to discuss police dogs because thats another big huge argument.

Thanks Jeff I appreciate your imput being the super worldly internet guy you are. I see you bash everyone on here and would expect nothing less. All those dogs youve trained and produced and still your known as the guy who is an a-hole on the internet...you must be so proud. 


Ive gave my post to the board concerning Yaro. I seldom if ever post here because this type of thing is exactly what I see here all the time.


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## Ben Colbert

Rick Furrow said:


> All those dogs youve trained and produced and still your known as the guy who is an a-hole on the internet...you must be so proud.



*HA*


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## morris lindesey

The reason for the music was some offensive language was being used by an individual in the background. BTW where's everyone else's super flawless training videos?...please share!


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Mo & Rick:

we saw Yaro as youngster, we know his former owners & clubmembers well and know their trainingstyle..

Tip from us:

The little yank to out him in the vid irritates him, instead of "getting into his mind", by the irritation he wants to fight. Instead of the little yank, the 3rd man can pull the dog against the suit (preferably with a very small chain).

to support the bite the handler with the long leash puts a little tension on the leash, and decoy and handler both help the dog to bite deeper.
The leash through the loin was of course a little mistake (I hope).


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## Rick Furrow

I appreciate it Selena and I remember you guys had seen the dog and Dick was very fond of him when I spoke to him. As I have responded to the many PMs about this post. The out was all messed up when I got him and he anticipated it all the time in training from the very first grip in the US. Im not bashing the original owner at all, I just thought he was further along in the training. Everyone has seen videos of him running and hitting decoys then swallowing the grip while the decoy is on the ground. No videos of outing and no videos of the decoy standing allowing his grip to be viewed when he was in Holland. It may have just been new country, new handler, new decoy stuff...I don't know stranger things have happened. You are exactly right that the correction with the prong collar fuels agression with him causing him to react. Not knowing the previous training I had to figure this out. You see the very first outing session with him. He got much better as the six minute session went on. He got better with the prong collar correction over time. He now is outing correctly and with ocassional e-collar correction. He was very pully and not pushing forward at all in the grip when I bought him. I knew he was better than that so I focused on him relaxing and not worrying about outing. His spirit was alittle broken when I got him. Of course I could have just accepted the gripping and continued with the premature outing but for the sport I compete in or KNPV for that matter this isn't acceptable gripping or outing. I believe he caught some of the negative effects of what occurred at the championships with the other dog so the out was pounded on Yaro in Holland. I have no proof but its what I believe. I like the dog alot and he has come a long way in training. I regret not making the trip to Holland to see him before I bought him so I knew what to expect. He is a phenomenal dog and Dick was correct the dog produces excellent. He had some holes that needed attention more than others. Fortunately no enviormantal issues or backing down/running problems which are critical in PSA. Last on the list was heeling from the decoy and not biting the leash. That stuff is still in the infancy stages of being fixed. I will get there because I actually train and not search the internet for videos to post and bash. I have no idea who most of the people who offered their name calling and bashing are. Maybe thats why they went on the attack, looking to be internet famous or something. Im ok with Gerry calling Jerry and I mooks in hopes to gain popularity. Gerry obviously thinks training is genetic and only dogs that are easily trained with good obedience should be bred. Ive never heard of the guy so he must be exceptional. I gave up name calling as a child but to each their own.

He was fat in that video I cant deny it. Ive cut his weight substantially and if I knew how to post pictures I would for everyone but I dont. For the not fast thing someone put out.....yeah right wanna stand in front of him? In Holland videos they were long sends. This video was like thirty feet because I dont need to work on his entry just his out at that time. Everyone knows he hits like a truck so whats the point. 

Gerry you are correct in that I did just purchase another KNPV dog that I went over and viewed before buying. He outs correctly and pushes in the grip ....Whats your point ?? I have two ? I breed one or two litters a year ?? I ve always produced quality dogs that went on to title and win championships ?? Help me out what is the point and what are you trying to say ??? Jerry has titled many dogs to high levels and Ive titled quite a few myself ?? Is mooks what you meant by this? I did some research Gerry and I may be in Canada in the near future for a PSA seminar. Bring your dogs out and show me how you do it and Ill let you work my ruined one thats a kite on a leash. Just saying Ill be closer so it might be a good idea to exchange some knowledge.....

No takers on anyone putting on a suit for my ruined dog yet ??? Nobody posting any videos to teach me their no pain method of outing a dog yet ??? Im willing to learn so please internet gurus teach me.


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## Rick Furrow

The leash trough the legs was a mistake and it was on the ground so there was no tension. It wasnt there for pain or to cause injury it was a miscommunication on when our part when the out was going to happen. Mistake and was corrected.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Thanks Jeff I appreciate your imput being the super worldly internet guy you are. I see you bash everyone on here and would expect nothing less. All those dogs youve trained and produced and still your known as the guy who is an a-hole on the internet...you must be so proud.

I guess if you want to call it bashing, then ok. You are also the guy that doesn't think the dog is fat. AND it has been months since the video and you still don't know if the dog will out. 

Nice of you to single me out though. I was not the one that called you a mook, which of course where I grew up is another name for the n word. Derivative of Mooly, related to Yam.

However, as a bonus, you are a hero to our resident girlscout Ben, so there was a positive side to all this.

Maybe you should use the internet to learn how to train the out. There are a lot of videos on the subject. After all, some of us "internet" trainers have trained their dog and their decoys and have actually done something. Who are you again ? (maybe you can get Jerry to answer, he has done something)


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## Bob Scott

Rick Furrow said:


> The leash trough the legs was a mistake and it was on the ground so there was no tension. It wasnt there for pain or to cause injury it was a miscommunication on when our part when the out was going to happen. Mistake and was corrected.


Appreciate the correction! 
My comment was more a joke about the "passing Genes" statement and wasn't a shot on the training.


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## Rick Furrow

No problem Jeff I am pretty sure I just posted he was fat. And his current outing status. Reading and Comprehension its OK I understand. I didn't single you out either I posted pretty much to everyone. Im sorry Im not known to you. It maybe that I haven't posted over 10,000 times on a message board like yourself. Im still under ten but hey maybe Ill get there. Ive titled a few just a couple but it wasn't in anything you compete in so I know it means nothing. Jerry and I had just met that day first time (what a joke). Ill ask him to tell me who I am, I'm sure he will help me out. Ive never trained a dog to out so Im looking for advice. Theres alot of videos online so I struggle to figure out which ones are correct and which ones aren't. I'm an easy guy to get along with and have no problem admitting issues. I choose not to bash or remain negative so I dont spout negativity everywhere. Thanks for the input as I already said. Who is it that knows me and wont admit it. I can possibly help figure it out. Nobody wants to admit they know a mook but If I KNOW them Ill speak up....


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## Gerry Grimwood

Geez, one breakfast meeting and all hell breaks loose.

I'm not going to try to explain myself to Dave,Rick or anyone else..I thought it was a shitty video and shitty training...so what ?? 

I asked a simple question about a video and suddenly Dave wants to know if I got a passing score on my GED. 

I've seen videos of the dog before and actually posted them here, I don't give a shit what anyone says..the Dutch people know how to get more out of a dog..period. Pick any ten seconds out of the video that I posted about and compare it to this one,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7L4XNW-Ktw&feature=related

I'm sorry if I hurt some feelings, but you guys are adults and shouldn't be bothered by what some ass pirate says about you.


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## David Frost

Dave Colborn said:


> Are you saying the dog should bite the one causing the pain?


If it isn't the handler, yes he should. 

DFrost


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## Rick Furrow

Gerry,

Hmmmm didnt see an out in there. Not one.... goes back to what I posted. Didnt see any heeling away from the decoy either. Not saying he didn't do it for the original owner but just not in any videos. Thats a video of exactly what I said it was so thank you for proving my point. If you would like to see that just say so and I will send him 100 yards to smoke a decoy. Could be you if youd like so you can experience it first hand. The entry or hitting isn't nor ever was an issue. Big blanket statement concerning the Dutch. Been there several times and they aren't all great trainers. Theres good ones and bad ones just like everywhere. I watched some really really good ones and some really really bad ones. Seen some stuff that makes me cringe when watching it. Seen alot of dogs I wouldn't pay the shipping on if they gave them to me. There are Dutch trainers who bash other Dutch trainers. You came right out namecalling not saying "the dutch can get more out of a dog." I would have agreed that many of them can. I like some dutch dogs not all. I went to the championships and liked a couple. Funny thing is the Dutch laugh at people like you and your mentality. Nobody asked for your GED score but since you came out swinging one might expect you to have some sort of proven knowledge to back it up. Maybe even a video of your excellent training methods.


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## Chris McDonald

Dave wants to know if I got a passing score on my GED. 

Psssst, ha thats funny


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## Gerry Grimwood

Whatever floats your boat Rick, any time I've ever watched a dog or looked at a video I like to try in my own humble way to attempt to see the whole picture, more to the point..is the dog into what he/she is doing.

I didn't see that in your video.

About the Dutch people laughing at me and my mentality..so what ? they wont be the first.


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## Chris McDonald

Hey Rick, I don’t know you, And I dont know anything about dog training. But I do know some people get all defensive because they do suck at something. You should just tell Gerry to go fly a kite. Ha, get it “go fly a kite”. I don’t even think Gerry has a GED
And Jeff is right Ben is a girl scout. This you cannot argue with.


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## andrew tygo

I think there are some dutch dogs that have issues with the out for multiple reasons. Some have handlers that are to tough on a dog that doesnt need it and some arent tough enough on dogs that do need it. Healing away from the decoy is a whole other issue super strong dogs with a lot of possessiveness OWN the decoy and want to stay with them no matter what. Very similar to the box in the woods exercise in the knpv strong guarding dogs wont come off the box for anything. Ive seen dogs guard it from the handler and come off the box to get the handler if he gets a little to close. Just like here in the states every dog is different and has to be trained differently then any dog you have owned before and every dog youll ever own.


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## morris lindesey

Dutch people know how to get more out of a dog period!

@ Selena/ Dick: I was born in Aruba, do I qualify?


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## Joby Becker

Andrew,

You guys have done some work with quality dutch males for some time now.

How would you compare working with these dogs to the average working dogs here in the states? Is there much of a difference between these dogs, and say the average french line mali or schutzhund club gsd's, or sporty dutchies for that matter?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Ive never trained a dog to out so Im looking for advice.

I saw one on ******* that had Bart Bellon working a dog on the out. I likke that one, but it is not where it was this morning. 

Start teaching the out away from the decoy with a toy. That is the best way, as when you get the decoy involved there is all that baggage and what not with the dog. Too hard and too much conflict.

You can start with the two ball game if necessary. With a dog that age and that much drive, it is going to take a while. The benefit of this stuff is that you can teach the dog that out means take whatever is in my mouth, and get it out of my mouth, in many different situations.

Use a different word. If it got all ****ed up, then the dog has various reactions to that word. You can test it with a tug or something to see what his reaction, or lack of reaction would be.

I imagine that it is going to take a longer time with a dog that has fought the command, so that should be taken into consideration. If the dog is really possesive, it is truely a pain in the butt. However, if the dog really likes to play, then you have at least something you can use. Fight me, and I quit, and you can go back to your kennel.

I have over ten thousand posts, crushing your nine like a small child. Now having 10,000 post and having been on this board pretty much from the beginning, I am going to ask you to make paragraphs so that your posts don't suck ass to read.

Bashing is something done with a club. Not liking what I see in a video is called having an opinion, and despite what your new worshiper Ben has to say, mine does matter.

There is no such thing as an internet trainer. You have to have the ability to train, and to comprehend what is being said to you. Unfortunately I find that most just do not have much skill as trainers at all. Especially the people that lash out blindly over an opinion that someone has. I feel your frustration, as much as people want to tease me about Buko, and his various disasters, he is a hell of a lot more dog than what they have ever owned, and there is no comparison to watching him vs their dogs. LOL

Welcome to that club. You will more than likely have better luck with just breeding the dog and taking a son of his and starting Mondio. You know, the sport of Kings ??


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## Ben Colbert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have over ten thousand posts, crushing your nine like a small child. Now having 10,000 post and having been on this board pretty much from the beginning



Ooohhhh. Ten thousand posts? I bet every one is worthwhile and constructive.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Bashing is something done with a club. Not liking what I see in a video is called having an opinion, and despite what your new worshiper Ben has to say, mine does matter.


I'm curious Jeff. You've given a seminar, you make comments like this...I honestly don't know...what are your dog accomplishments? I have repeatedly admitted to be new at this game but you claim to know it all.

How many dogs have you trained from puppy to title?

Any regional or national wins?

Anything else I should know?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Ben Colbert said:


> Anything else I should know?


Yes, being an ass kisser will only get you bad breath.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I was wondering what that smell was. The kid cannot train a dog to sit, but wants me to jump through hoops for him. Learn to swim kid, I think you get a badge for it in the girl scouts. 

How does it feel to know that there is a war going on, and you are safe and sound here in the girl scouts ? I hear shame is forever.


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## Ben Colbert

Seriously Jeff? You can't bother to answer a question but you can insult the USCG? Your an awesome human being. Oh and I've trained a puppy (a mixed breed pound dog) from zero to BH and almost Sch1.

What have you done?


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## andrew tygo

I guess it all depends on what you like in a dog and what you plan on doing with it. Our particular training group likes dog that are hard hitting,high flying,have very real aggression,over the top drives,crazy possessiveness..etc. WE LIKE MONSTERS. If we were a ring sport group we probably wouldnt look to knpv dogs for our group not that they couldnt do the work its just a matter of choosing the right tool for the right job.We are big fans of the knpv program and IMO I repeat IMO think the knpv is the benchmark for testing a true street worthy dog not that any other organization doesnt produce very nice and tough dogs it seems with the dutch its a lot easier to find the monsters. As for the sporty dogs its a matter of preference i can watch a very nice sport dog or "point dog" as i call it and see all the precision work that went into that dog and appreciate that but take the sleeve away and how many sport dogs will bite for real ??? I like to know that the equipment is there just to save the decoy working my dog and not a signal to my dog its time to play.


Joby Becker said:


> Andrew,
> 
> You guys have done some work with quality dutch males for some time now.
> 
> How would you compare working with these dogs to the average working dogs here in the states? Is there much of a difference between these dogs, and say the average french line mali or schutzhund club gsd's, or sporty dutchies for that matter?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Oh and I've trained a puppy (a mixed breed pound dog) from zero to BH and almost Sch1.

What does "almost" mean ? Isn't that the coasting guards motto ?


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## David Frost

I really dislike getting involved in threads like this. I'll just say it outright.

The next comment that involves a personal insult closes the thread. If you want to have an opinion on the video, give it. The personal stuff stays that way.

DFrost


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## Ben Colbert

Still no answer Jeff?

I asked an honest question. You talk like you've trained many dogs all the way to a title. This is your chance to really show me up. I'm the guy who can't even train his dog to sit.

What have you done?

*Posted before Dave's comment. Feel free to reply by PM. Other wise I'm done with this thread.*


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## Joby Becker

David Frost said:


> I really dislike getting involved in threads like this. I'll just say it outright.
> 
> The next comment that involves a personal insult closes the thread. If you want to have an opinion on the video, give it. The personal stuff stays that way.
> 
> DFrost


The thread STARTED with a personal insult..
.
My take on the vid is that dog would probably eat more than half the people that post on here if they took the leash and tried to out him.


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## Joby Becker

andrew tygo said:


> I guess it all depends on what you like in a dog and what you plan on doing with it. Our particular training group likes dog that are hard hitting,high flying,have very real aggression,over the top drives,crazy possessiveness..etc. WE LIKE MONSTERS. If we were a ring sport group we probably wouldnt look to knpv dogs for our group not that they couldnt do the work its just a matter of choosing the right tool for the right job.We are big fans of the knpv program and IMO I repeat IMO think the knpv is the benchmark for testing a true street worthy dog not that any other organization doesnt produce very nice and tough dogs it seems with the dutch its a lot easier to find the monsters. As for the sporty dogs its a matter of preference i can watch a very nice sport dog or "point dog" as i call it and see all the precision work that went into that dog and appreciate that but take the sleeve away and how many sport dogs will bite for real ??? I like to know that the equipment is there just to save the decoy working my dog and not a signal to my dog its time to play.


kind of what I thought...thanks for the reply...

Would you say until you own and handle one of these types of dogs, it is hard to comment on handling them and training them?

Would you agree that things people might do with other types of dogs might get their azz chewed if they tried it with one of the MONSTERS? 

Maybe even something as simple as trying to take their tug away from them?


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## Gerry Grimwood

I enjoy watching videos of Dutch dogs and their trainers, I can't afford to go there to watch so I have to be satisfied with vids, probably don't get the whole picture but that's ok.

Here's a video with an out.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ilsJE-LWQ

Mike Suttle had this dog and didn't like something about him because he was sold..no big deal. Mike presents himself in a understated way, sometimes less is more.

I still think the way these Dutch guys train is pretty cool, they even have a youngster there that doesn't seem phased at all by what's going on around him.

They may or may not be better trainers, but at least they have the sense not to put as many questionable videos on the internets.


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## Guest

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I enjoy watching videos of Dutch dogs and their trainers, I can't afford to go there to watch so I have to be satisfied with vids, probably don't get the whole picture but that's ok.
> 
> Here's a video with an out.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ilsJE-LWQ
> 
> Mike Suttle had this dog and didn't like something about him because he was sold..no big deal. Mike presents himself in a understated way, sometimes less is more.
> 
> I still think the way these Dutch guys train is pretty cool, they even have a youngster there that doesn't seem phased at all by what's going on around him.
> 
> They may or may not be better trainers, but at least they have the sense not to put as many questionable videos on the internets.


Endor was/is a super nice dog....and anyone seen him in person HUGE!!


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## Rick Furrow

I was speaking of a video of Yaro since he was the topic. But yes Endor appears to have been a nice dog. Not realitive to the Yaro and mook post but nice. Ive been to Holland several times so Ive seen it not only on videos.

This post started in an insulting manner. Moderator backed it......Whatever works.


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## andrew tygo

I would encourage everyone who has a passion for working dogs to own/handle/decoy a strong knpv dog its definatly an experience. I think you really have to know how to "read" a dog to handle/own one of these dogs and a good understand of their genetic traits. Dogs that are SUPER possessive arent just posessive over a tug or ball but i leaf that blows across the grass or an empty food bowl or anything that in there mind is theirs. I have a pup that is a distant relative to the dog im currently handling and the similarities are very scary so i see what the finish product will turn into so i add a lil bit here and take some out there to achieve more balance but even at 6 weeks had more REAL aggression than a lot of adult dogs i know


Joby Becker said:


> kind of what I thought...thanks for the reply...
> 
> Would you say until you own and handle one of these types of dogs, it is hard to comment on handling them and training them?
> 
> Would you agree that things people might do with other types of dogs might get their azz chewed if they tried it with one of the MONSTERS?
> 
> Maybe even something as simple as trying to take their tug away from them?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Rick Furrow said:


> This post started in an insulting manner. Moderator backed it......Whatever works.


Hey Rick, no publicity is bad publicity.

If I hurt you by referring to you as a Mook..which in my definition is just a testosterone overloaded individual..I'm sorry, I didn't think by the video you were the sensitive type.


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## Joby Becker

Jody Butler said:


> Endor was/is a super nice dog....and anyone seen him in person HUGE!!


I only saw him once...and have permanent scars. NICE dog indeed...


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## Drew Peirce

yep, he'll go down as one of the greatest ever


Andrew, I'm curious about this club of monster lovers you speak of, please elaborate..............


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## Joby Becker

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've seen videos of the dog before and actually posted them here, I don't give a shit what anyone says..the Dutch people know how to get more out of a dog..period. Pick any ten seconds out of the video that I posted about and compare it to this one,
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7L4XNW-Ktw&feature=related
> 
> I'm sorry if I hurt some feelings, but you guys are adults and shouldn't be bothered by what some ass pirate says about you.


compare THAT to this one..from the same website..when the dog was in the USA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJvDJ2jWpkg
I do not see a whole lot of difference in the strikes...but do actually see some outing...

I watched ALL the Yaro vids on Smackk9's youtube site... 15 vids...strikes are pretty comparable to the 2 USA vid I could find.

There are *15* vids on Smackk9 (Holland) of Yaro, totaling *578* seconds (almost 10 minutes). (if my math was right)

I counted 42 seconds of someone acutally handling the dog..and 40 seconds of that was in one video of the dog at *6 months* of age..*stroking and petting the puppy*....the other *2* seconds were split among all the other videos of him older...after editing.. 

Out of all the Holland vids I *could not find one* that shows Yaro *outing*...let alone actually being handled as an adult...

so nothing to compare to really...

Then another comparision is made to Endor..a totally different dog, in a totally different training scenario, with different handlers and different decoys..what is the point? to compare the Dutch outing of Endor to the USA outing of Yaro? LOL

I am not knocking anything Dutch here, just pointing out ridiculous comparisons made by the OP.

I do however agree with the statement that Dutch people know how to get more out of these dogs...as they should...


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## Joby Becker

Joby Becker said:


> compare THAT to this one..from the same website..when the dog was in the USA.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJvDJ2jWpkg
> I do not see a whole lot of difference in the strikes...but do actually see some outing...
> 
> I watched ALL the Yaro vids on Smackk9's youtube site... 15 vids...strikes are pretty comparable to the 2 USA vid I could find.
> 
> There are *15* vids on Smackk9 (Holland) of Yaro, totaling *578* seconds (almost 10 minutes). (if my math was right)
> 
> I counted 42 seconds of someone acutally handling the dog..and 40 seconds of that was in one video of the dog at *6 months* of age..*stroking and petting the puppy*....the other *2* seconds were split among all the other videos of him older...after editing..
> 
> Out of all the Holland vids I *could not find one* that shows Yaro *outing*...let alone actually being handled as an adult...
> 
> so nothing to compare to really...
> 
> Then another comparision is made to Endor..a totally different dog, in a totally different training scenario, with different handlers and different decoys..what is the point? to compare the Dutch outing of Endor to the USA outing of Yaro? LOL
> 
> I am not knocking anything Dutch here, just pointing out ridiculous comparisons made by the OP.
> 
> I do however agree with the statement that Dutch people know how to get more out of these dogs...as they should...


Where are all the videos of the Canadians handing these older Dutch Imports, while we are the subject, we can compare those next...


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## morris lindesey

OFF TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone up for a STUD DOG competition here in the USA? Instead of all the posturing BS, let's put these dogs to the test for all to see which dog is which and what is what? So, who wants to see a stud dog competition? I know I do.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I just see video's to "show off", no training video's.
I see decoywork from unexperienced decoys who are not helpers and do more 
" bad" to the dog than make progress in training. 
I see handlers not understanding how a (this) dog is build up/trained in KNPV or this club and create a lot of miscommunication with the dog and make him fight the out.
If the dog expects the out, the handler is the one to "make the dog right" in his expectation. Train, so YOU direct for him to bite or out so he doesn't know when to expect.
What you see in a dog is what you create yourself!!
The dog is the mirror of your training methods....:idea: Its mostly NEVER the dogs "fold" but almost ALWAYS trainings issue.

If you want/train a good out, make sure the dog also knows when he is allowed to bite, so reward him for that also. Make training black/white if you want/need to lean heavy on the out, you should dose/compromise that in the bite,by rewarding the moments he MAY bite. Pad him, stroke him while biting and be Fermi on the out. (If need so.....)
I know the dog, i just can't understand how the out can be a problem???

If you are in the progress of training the bite/out I would NEVER use my dog to show of like the video Gerry G. showed. It will destroy all your training effort.

*Dick*


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## andrew tygo

I think i can scrounge up a couple of competitors...lol:twisted::twisted:


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## morris lindesey

Nice Andrew!


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## Alice Bezemer

and at the end of the day....LOL im so going to get my ass kicked for this post.....

people talk about the difference in dogs and im thinking to myself....its not the dogs themselves...its the difference in training in general when it comes to the dogs imported from the netherlands.....we train on a completly different level and with a totaly different mentatlity as opposed to the trainers in the US...there is no comparing either...not saying that we do it better or faster or anything...just different since we probably have a different view on the whole trainingthing to begin with...but thats my personal opinion! does not mean another KNPV person here agrees with me....

and yes I to like the monsters...


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## Guest

Alice Bezemer said:


> and at the end of the day....LOL im so going to get my ass kicked for this post.....
> 
> people talk about the difference in dogs and im thinking to myself....its not the dogs themselves...its the difference in training in general when it comes to the dogs imported from the netherlands.....we train on a completly different level and with a totaly different mentatlity as opposed to the trainers in the US...there is no comparing either...not saying that we do it better or faster or anything...just different since we probably have a different view on the whole trainingthing to begin with...but thats my personal opinion! does not mean another KNPV person here agrees with me....
> 
> and yes I to like the monsters...


I agree totally, that is the same here in the US as well, not just with KNPV dogs either...

Thats why a true stud dog competition should be rated/graded as a TEAM, and not the dog, handler or training individually, it is the whole effort that performs on the field, street, water...whatever....

We will always disagree on what we like in a dog or how a dog performs, but at the end of the day, there is a reason for it, good or bad.


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## Drew Peirce

Andrew since you ignored my question I had to satisfy my own curiosity, I see you've recently reregistered, threw me off a bit with the last name and all...........

Anyway, yes mo we hope this stud dog competition actually comes to fruition, but I have serious doubts that it ever will........maybe I'll be proven wrong.


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## andrew tygo

Alice Bezemer said:


> and at the end of the day....LOL im so going to get my ass kicked for this post.....
> 
> people talk about the difference in dogs and im thinking to myself....its not the dogs themselves...its the difference in training in general when it comes to the dogs imported from the netherlands.....we train on a completly different level and with a totaly different mentatlity as opposed to the trainers in the US...there is no comparing either...not saying that we do it better or faster or anything...just different since we probably have a different view on the whole trainingthing to begin with...but thats my personal opinion! does not mean another KNPV person here agrees with me....
> 
> and yes I to like the monsters...


without a doubt the differences are night and day. We recently held a seminar with hennie bolster and he seemed a little shocked at the differences. He says they tie the pups out all day watching while the older dogs train no problem here in the states the spca or peta will be called after the first hour, he laughed at the whole thing. Very different training methods and very interesting to watch and learn how and when to use them


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## andrew tygo

Drew Peirce said:


> Andrew since you ignored my question I had to satisfy my own curiosity, I see you've recently reregistered, threw me off a bit with the last name and all...........
> 
> Anyway, yes mo we hope this stud dog competition actually comes to fruition, but I have serious doubts that it ever will........maybe I'll be proven wrong.


Sorry I was replying to another post. Did you find everything your looking for ???


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## brad robert

what a lot of drama for nothing


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## will fernandez

time for another gathering


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## morris lindesey

Well Drew, looks like the Andrew and Upstate guys are gonna step up to the plate...I like those guys already!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Joby Becker said:


> Where are all the videos of the Canadians handing these older Dutch Imports, while we are the subject, we can compare those next...


Joby, because you disagree with me is no reason to make this about the entire population of a country. 

I don't think as many people over here would be willing to pay those prices for a dog, I think that's why when you look at Dutch sites that sell dogs the English version of the site is represented by an American flag..you guys are their best customers.

As to the outing thing, I never brought that up as part of the original question. There have been some interesting posts though.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Joby got a suit 4 years ago and now is a dog trainer. Don't forget, first, get the suit, then you are the expert, then you are the trainer.


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## Joby Becker

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Joby got a suit 4 years ago and now is a dog trainer. Don't forget, first, get the suit, then you are the expert, then you are the trainer.


Jeff.  HI...
not that it matters, but I got my first suit 16 yrs ago and have owned about a dozen of them since then. 
Not an expert.
Are YOU an expert?


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## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> not that it matters, but I got my first suit 16 yrs ago and have owned about a dozen of them since then.


 
That's 'cos you're an ebay suit dealer, you just like to try them all on :smile:, maybe one day you'll find one that fits?


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## Mike Jones

There is a lesson to be learned from this post. Stop uploading videos on youtube that uses medium to strong levels of compulsion. The general public doesn't understand competitive dog training. If you don't want peta and the other so-called do gooders on your back keep your dog training videos to yourself.

I would never post videos of the teaching or correction stage of my training. Only the proofing for constructive criticism. This video shows a snapshot of a training session at one stage in the dog's training. It is easy to misconstrue what is trying to be accomplished and easy for outsiders to judge harshly what they do not understand. 

Just not a smart move. In fact, I would remove this video and anyone like it with heavy compulsion. It's not necessary to show the world all of your training methods.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, of course. The first thing you should do is curr like a little bitch, and hide. Take down the video, and make sure that you only train on certain days as long as no one is around.

You sound like you belong in Mondio. HA HA


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## Ben Colbert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes, of course. The first thing you should do is curr like a little bitch, and hide.


I asked you three times on this very thread to back up all your big talk and post up what you have accomplished with your dogs. Then I told you that you could just PM me. Neither happened.

The irony here is delicious.


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## Maureen A Osborn

There are 3 dog trainers hanging around talking......what do 2 of the trainers have in common???????
v
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That they agree that the 3 rd trainer doesnt know what he is doing!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I love the run and hide mentality. Everytime you post a video, someone will not like something about it. I didn't like the way they were going about getting the out, as the dog didn't seem to be getting it. 

I say that he should post another video with that dog, cause **** everyone, maybe the dog is outing now. 

Ben, you crack me up. If I have taught 1 dog to sit, I have already crushed your best efforts at dog training. Just the fact that Buko has a title crushes everything you have ever done in the dog world. What don't you get about that ?

You think I should post a resume for you so you feel better? What part of "I DON'T LIKE YOU" are you struggling with ? Send me some thin mints and shut the **** up.


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## jeremy anderson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What part of "I DON'T LIKE YOU" are you struggling with ? Send me some thin mints and shut the **** up.


:-o roflmao That was funny


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## Ben Colbert

Usual Jeff. Avoid the question with an insult. You've never done anything of note with a dog. You took an adult dog, bombed nationals and then sold him when you couldn't fix your mistakes and yet you are god around here.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

As usual, you are clueless. I got Buko when he was 10 months old, and here he is at 7 years laying next to me while I make fun of the girl scout.

You can talk to him about his performance at the Nationals. I doubt he would give a **** about you either. However, he wants some cookies too. Do you have to wear your little sash when you go door to door ?


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## James Idi

NONE of you can compare to the MASTER!!! Watch his awesome "skilz"! BOW down to him!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuxOF66Qn_A

For only $23,005.00, a set of rims, and a case of twinkies, he has promised to train ME to be a master like him in only 2 weeks!! SCORE!!!

All hail the MASTER!!!!


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## brad robert

becaus of people like this dont be surprised if dogs like this go the way of the pitbull.i know it sounds extreme but what a complete dick.


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## maggie fraser

brad robert said:


> becaus of people like this dont be surprised if dogs like this go the way of the pitbull.i know it sounds extreme but what a complete dick.


Who are you referring to? Ben??


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## morris lindesey

I think he meant Master Von der Muff


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## Geoff Empey

James Idi said:


> NONE of you can compare to the MASTER!!! Watch his awesome "skilz"! BOW down to him!!!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuxOF66Qn_A
> 
> For only $23,005.00, a set of rims, and a case of twinkies, he has promised to train ME to be a master like him in only 2 weeks!! SCORE!!!
> 
> All hail the MASTER!!!!


As humorous and fun as this guy can be, one thing I like about him is the way he talks to his dogs. 

_<insert girly voice>_ _*"Good Boy etc Good Boy etc Good Boy" *_

Not to many mooks, chumps and one eyed ass pirates have the gumption to talk and tell their dogs that they are doing the right thing when the dog is doing it correctly. But they sure are quick to correct a dog when it does something wrong.

Hmmm indeed .. :-k

<_disclaimer_, Just a general comment not directed at the original video, just at all mooks, chumps and one eyed ass pirates>


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## Gerry Grimwood

James Idi said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuxOF66Qn_A


He almost crushed my watch :lol::lol:


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## Gillian Schuler

Jeff O.:

_Start teaching the out away from the decoy with a toy._

This is good but elementary advice (no offence, Jeff) but am surprised one has to give it. With the dog in question (haven't read all the posts) could this also be done by calming the dog, letting him sit, and calming him until he outs? I'm thinking if the dog outs without "bribe" (however long it takes) it would have more lasting effect??

Albeit, first with the toy and then when the dog ovecomes the conflict, try the calming method.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

First, start by reading all the posts and that way you won't come off as half assed. HA HA HA HA

Sorry to be so elementary, but he did say he had never taught the out before. So you go to the beginning when someone says that. Well, you do if you are an internet dog trainer.


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## Drew Peirce

Hey moe, I'm not throwing in the towell but I think your pissing into a strong headwind man..........


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