# seizures? or what...any toughts.. help?!?



## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi everyone. I need some comments, answers, opinions, toughts, ideas, suggestions...anything!!

Ok, so I have had this American Bully, aka, newer kind of pit bull. Ever since the last few months like 9+ months or so, she has been weird. She's having hallucinations, and acting like someone or something is attacking her. She flips out and screams And screeches and it's horrible. Ever since I started training her as a working dog, the episodes are not often, but still there. But her issues are getting worst. She is now showing aggression, but I think out of a confused state of mind, not on purpose. It only last for a few minutes until she gathers her thoughts. Vet recommended pills or put to sleep. But I don't feel like giving up just like that. An example of an episode would be her laying down sleeping, then suddenly getting up, screaming and screeching and biting theair, then as quick as it happened, it stopped. And she is totally normal. Took her to the vet and had a neurological test done and other test including blood, and vet thinks it's her problem is genetic and she is just unfixable. I could either put her on pills, or put her down. I have tried everything from positive only training, to correction type training, to time outs/social isolation type. Nothing is working. I'm huge with Michael Ellis style of training. Any advice, or comments or anything really would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nailin Baker said:


> Hi everyone. I need some comments, answers, opinions, toughts, ideas, suggestions...anything!!
> 
> Ok, so I have had this American Bully, aka, newer kind of pit bull. Ever since the last few months like 9+ months or so, she has been weird. She's having hallucinations, and acting like someone or something is attacking her. She flips out and screams And screeches and it's horrible. Ever since I started training her as a working dog, the episodes are not often, but still there. But her issues are getting worst. She is now showing aggression, but I think out of a confused state of mind, not on purpose. It only last for a few minutes until she gathers her thoughts. Vet recommended pills or put to sleep. But I don't feel like giving up just like that. An example of an episode would be her laying down sleeping, then suddenly getting up, screaming and screeching and biting theair, then as quick as it happened, it stopped. And she is totally normal. Took her to the vet and had a neurological test done and other test including blood, and vet thinks it's her problem is genetic and she is just unfixable. I could either put her on pills, or put her down. I have tried everything from positive only training, to correction type training, to time outs/social isolation type. Nothing is working. I'm huge with Michael Ellis style of training. Any advice, or comments or anything really would be appreciated. Thanks.



How old is the dog? How long have you had her?

How often is "not often"?


"Pills"? Phenobarbital?

_
"She is now showing aggression, but I think out of a confused state of mind, not on purpose. "_

Have you read this?
http://kimmurphy.net/shaman-article.html

Here's more from the Dr. Dodman mentioned in that paper:
http://www.apdt.com/veterinary/assets/pdf/Dodman_MA10.pdf

I'm not a health professional. What I've read about seizure disorders would make me believe that what you describe is related to the seizures and nothing that "positive only training, to correction type training, to time outs/social isolation type" can help.

These episodes .... this is not a good life for the dog. Again, JMO.



When you say "training as a working dog," what do you mean? She doesn't sound like a candidate for any kind of work I can think of. All JMHO, and again, I'm not a health professional.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

You gave one example but from the sound of things this happens outside of resting (sleep) periods?

Seizures would be my first suspicion. 

Just a side note, a friend of mine described something similar in his Renascence Bulldog, but at first it sounded more like the dog was dreaming and moving about considerably during sleep. Initially, I figured what he was describing was typical until the expression of it became stronger as did the behavior after each episode. 

At that point upon coming out of them the behavior was almost exactly as you described (with the exception of the vocalization) - confused, aggressive, etc. I seem to recall this started at around 10 or so months of age. The seizures became more frequent and eventually the dog was euthanized.

Nailin, if you opt to explore treatment/alternatives for your dog (assuming these are seizures), I can put you in touch with someone who might be able to offer you some suggestions. She maintained her dog (Dogue de Bordeaux) for quite a long time and worked every angle she could to treat/control her condition. Understand, I am not offering comment either way about whether or not dogs with this issue should be treated or euthanized. I'm only offering you an option should you feel that you want to go that route.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Probably along the line of Connie's thinking, I'd start with a Dodd's thyroid work-up and am curious about the pills. Also, probably worth a vet second opinion.

T


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## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> How old is the dog? How long have you had her?
> 
> How often is "not often"?
> 
> ...


Often, about once a week, this week twice.
Pills, honestly I'm not sure of the name. I was too upset to even think about anything after the vet said to put her down. 
I have tried everything someone find in the internet, books, trainers, vet... shard, like right this minute she is just laying by the fireplace with the kids. She loves the kids. 

Thank you for the suggested reading!!!!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nailin Baker said:


> Often, about once a week, this week twice.


If these are indeed seizures, this would be considered often.


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## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> You gave one example but from the sound of things this happens outside of resting (sleep) periods?
> 
> Seizures would be my first suspicion.
> 
> ...


Anything would be great, Like I said training has reallyhelped, but it's just not enough. Ebony just turned 3 Nov 24th. She is sooooo young.


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## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

I have had her since 12 weeks old


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nailin Baker said:


> Anything would be great, Like I said training has reallyhelped, but it's just not enough. Ebony just turned 3 Nov 24th. She is sooooo young.


Is there anything that can serve as a predictor of these episodes? I ask because I am having difficulty grasping how training might help - unless what is being described concerning these episodes isn't entirely accurate. That said, have you had this dogs hips x rayed?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nailin Baker said:


> Often, about once a week, this week twice.
> Pills, honestly I'm not sure of the name. I was too upset to even think about anything after the vet said to put her down.
> I have tried everything someone find in the internet, books, trainers, vet... shard, like right this minute she is just laying by the fireplace with the kids. She loves the kids.
> 
> Thank you for the suggested reading!!!!!!


This isn't good. That's _often_. 

The seizures as well as the confused bewildering fearful period that precede them .... this is not good for her to suffer with.

And she is probably dangerous, through no fault of her own.

I'd be thinking seriously about a second opinion about whether it's treatable. I couldn't let the dog go through this once or twice a week, and I don't think you will want to either, once you have thought through what your vet said and you read up on seizure disorders. 

You might want to Google:
complex partial seizures in dogs
canine epilepsy
fly-snapping in dogs
seizure disorder in dogs

This doesn't sound good to me.

I'm sorry.


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## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> If these are indeed seizures, this would be considered often.


I guess what I'm most confused about is I think of seizures as convulsions not this kind of episode, ya know. I just really don't know what to do. I have people telling me to medicate her, others to put her down and others to work with it as is. I just don't want to be selfish, or do the wrong thing.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Nalin, sorry to hear about your dog. I just lost mine to seizures. But in his case it progressed from nothing to every half an hour over the course of 48 hours. It f**ked me up big time and I don't know if I'll ever get over it. The dog was just yanked out of my life with no warning. He was such a good dog, even as the seizures were coming on he didn't get aggressive with us, nor during the disoriented after period, makes me cry now. I don't know what's worse, weeks leading up to it or suddenly like my dog. Only thing I can offer is that before the seizure would take over completely the dog would foam at the mouth. I don't think in your case it has anything to do with training, and I wouldn't stimulate the dog in any way while it is in this state. 

Terrasita, what do you know about the connection between thyroid issues and seizures?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nailin Baker said:


> I guess what I'm most confused about is I think of seizures as convulsions not this kind of episode, ya know. I just really don't know what to do. I have people telling me to medicate her, others to put her down and others to work with it as is. I just don't want to be selfish, or do the wrong thing.


_
"I think of seizures as convulsions not this kind of episode."_


You need to do a little reading. Please don't base any decisions on preconceived ideas that don't apply.


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## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Is there anything that can serve as a predictor of these episodes? I ask because I am having difficulty grasping how training might help - unless what is being described concerning these episodes isn't entirely accurate. That said, have you had this dogs hips x rayed?


I could see it it in her eyes and posture. I try to distract her from her state of mind, it doesn't always help, I then give her a mentalbreak and put her in her crate, when I see she's snapped out if it, I take hardback out and it's as nothing happened with her.


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## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

Dan Bowman said:


> Nalin, sorry to hear about your dog. I just lost mine to seizures. But in his case it progressed from nothing to every half an hour over the course of 48 hours. It f**ked me up big time and I don't know if I'll ever get over it. The dog was just yanked out of my life with no warning. He was such a good dog, even as the seizures were coming on he didn't get aggressive with us, nor during the disoriented after period, makes me cry now. I don't know what's worse, weeks leading up to it or suddenly like my dog. Only thing I can offer is that before the seizure would take over completely the dog would foam at the mouth. I don't think in your case it has anything to do with training. I don't understand why it only happens when the dog is sleeping.
> 
> Terresita, what do you know about the connection between thyroid issues and seizures?


Had her thyroid checked and it's fine. :-(


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nailin Baker said:


> I could see it it in her eyes and posture. I try to distract her from her state of mind, it doesn't always help, I then give her a mentalbreak and put her in her crate, when I see she's snapped out if it, I take hardback out and it's as nothing happened with her.


But it has. Please read up on this. Even just the second link I gave you will help you se that "seizure" very often doesn't mean "convulsion."

And training really has nothing to do with seizures except for possibly adding stress.

I'm sorry. This isn't something you want to let continue without treatment or PTS.

JMO.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nailin, do a search on YouTube for dog seizures and see if you still think what is happening with her is related to a training issue. I am fairly well informed on this topic and assure you that if nothing else you will find the videos eye opening.

You will also see the owners doing the same thing - attempting to distract/calm the dog. In my opinion this adds stress to the situation and does tend to confuse the dog, even frighten them if the urges for the dog to come around or respond become more insistent. You will see what I mean when you watch the videos.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dan Bowman said:


> ...Terrasita, what do you know about the connection between thyroid issues and seizures?


Not Terrasita, but:

http://www.vetinfo.com/seizures-from-hypothyroidism-in-dogs.html#b

http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Lowthyroid.html

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/Thyroid.htm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nailin Baker said:


> Had her thyroid checked and it's fine. :-(


That is not good news in this case.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Get a second opinion, preferably from a neurologist. I would try medication to see if it helps, to be honest. I would also consider something like massage or acupuncture.

Testing for epilepsy often comes up negative when in fact the patient is epileptic (this goes for humans and animals). Medications are sometimes totally effective, a little effective, or not effective at all. Veterinary care is poorly behind the times on epilepsy. Different types of epilepsy require different types of medications. Right now we use phenobarbital because it's cheap - but if you've got petit mals or simple partials its' not likely to help.

How does she act right after the episode? 

Keep a diary of every day with her. What did she do the day(s) and hours prior to the episode?

It's interesting to see that she's gotten better with training. I wonder that, if this is neurological, the stimulation and stress of training is strengthening her neurological system.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Get a second opinion, preferably from a neurologist. I would try medication to see if it helps, to be honest. I would also consider something like massage or acupuncture.
> 
> Testing for epilepsy often comes up negative when in fact the patient is epileptic (this goes for humans and animals). Medications are sometimes totally effective, a little effective, or not effective at all. Veterinary care is poorly behind the times on epilepsy. Different types of epilepsy require different types of medications. Right now we use phenobarbital because it's cheap - but if you've got petit mals or simple partials its' not likely to help.
> 
> ...


I wonder if training is actually causing improvement, though.

I know I can sometimes "see" what I want or expect to see, and that you are absolutely right about a journal.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> It's interesting to see that she's gotten better with training. I wonder that, if this is neurological, the stimulation and stress of training is strengthening her neurological system.


My gut tells me that this is the result of a mental toughening of sort (conditioning). Do you know what I mean?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

If you havent already I would be getting a referral to a vet who specialises in this area. My mother had a cattle dog that developed seizures when she was older and pheno barbitol controlled it to certain extent. 

Your dog is so young that I would be definitely seeking a specialist opinion as well as seeking your own info which you are obviously doing.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

If the dog is getting more exercise it certainly makes sense. Physical exercise has been long thought to decrease seizure activity in the brain. Some speculate that this may be because of increased mental concentration (which is something the dog may experience in training, or for us, while playing a sport).

But as most know as well that emotional stress can trigger seizures. So I think it could go either way.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Estrogen can also affect seizure activity in people (not sure about dogs, though it seems like it). Is she intact?

Also, do you remember any possible head injury? Even something like running into a wall on accident or tripping chasing a ball?

Any possibility of exposure to ticks?

http://www.canine-epilepsy.com


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## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> But it has. Please read up on this. Even just the second link I gave you will help you se that "seizure" very often doesn't mean "convulsion."
> 
> And training really has nothing to do with seizures except for possibly adding stress.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for those links. And yes, trying to get info from others that have seen this or are familiarto educate myself and help make the right choice before her health makes choice for her before it's too late.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nailin Baker said:


> Had her thyroid checked and it's fine. :-(


Presumably this was done because of what was happening? If so, was this a standard vet test or did you explore it as deeply is suggested when attempting to find a possible relationship between the two?

Also what Katie said about the hormonal influence is accurate, which is why it's somewhat common for seizures to surface around the time of puberty in both dogs and adults. Some have found spaying their bitches with this condition (again assuming from your descriptions that she's having seizures) helps.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Nailin, do a search on YouTube for dog seizures and see if you still think what is happening with her is related to a training issue. I am fairly well informed on this topic and assure you that if nothing else you will find the videos eye opening.
> 
> You will also see the owners doing the same thing - attempting to distract/calm the dog. In my opinion this adds stress to the situation and does tend to confuse the dog, even frighten them if the urges for the dog to come around or respond become more insistent. You will see what I mean when you watch the videos.


 
Saw a dog go into one at agility class and having seen the owner train on another dog, not surprised. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dan Bowman said:


> Nalin, sorry to hear about your dog. I just lost mine to seizures. But in his case it progressed from nothing to every half an hour over the course of 48 hours. It f**ked me up big time and I don't know if I'll ever get over it. The dog was just yanked out of my life with no warning. He was such a good dog, even as the seizures were coming on he didn't get aggressive with us, nor during the disoriented after period, makes me cry now. I don't know what's worse, weeks leading up to it or suddenly like my dog. Only thing I can offer is that before the seizure would take over completely the dog would foam at the mouth. I don't think in your case it has anything to do with training, and I wouldn't stimulate the dog in any way while it is in this state.
> 
> Terrasita, what do you know about the connection between thyroid issues and seizures?


Dan, 

My buddy Lynda would laugh because where I see something abnormal/strange in a dog, the first thing I want to rule out is thyroid and I either want a 5 point Michigan panel or Dodds' 8 point panel. As Katie indicated, hormonal changes can trigger thyroid or neurological issues. Given the age of the dog and I don't get a good feel about the vet involved, here's where I would start. Also, look at diet. The endocrine system just about rules all for me, so this is where I start. Had a dog in my training group start out working fine. Over the course of the season he kept regressing to the point of his home sheep chasiing him around the pen and he wouldn't work at all. We were stumped. Talked to the vet and asked if he thought a thyroid panel was in order. Its the only think I could think of organic that would affect him that drastically, mentally. Vet and vet tech thought I was nuts. I said humor me. He came back abnormal. Put him on the medication. Took almost a full year of the meds for him to return to baseline.

For the epilepsy connection and as a start, check out: http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Lowthyroid.html


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## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

Katie Finlay said:


> Estrogen can also affect seizure activity in people (not sure about dogs, though it seems like it). Is she intact?
> 
> Also, do you remember any possible head injury? Even something like running into a wall on accident or tripping chasing a ball?
> 
> ...


In Tahoe only have deer ticks. No fleas. She is a goofy bouncy Pit. She once hung herself by her leg on our fence chasing a raccoon. Luckily we were home. She has run into trees chasing toys, but not hard enough that she cried, but doesn't mean she didn't hurt herself.


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## Nailin Baker (Sep 9, 2012)

Nailin Baker said:


> In Tahoe only have deer ticks. No fleas. She is a goofy bouncy Pit. She once hung herself by her leg on our fence chasing a raccoon. Luckily we were home. She has run into trees chasing toys, but not hard enough that she cried, but doesn't mean she didn't hurt herself.


And she is fixed.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Nailin Baker said:


> In Tahoe only have deer ticks. No fleas. She is a goofy bouncy Pit. She once hung herself by her leg on our fence chasing a raccoon. Luckily we were home. She has run into trees chasing toys, but not hard enough that she cried, but doesn't mean she didn't hurt herself.


Ehrlichiosis can have a late onset (years in the second stage) that does include seizures. It has been found that some dogs only have seizures. Often the very first symptoms go unnoticed.

I'm assuming she's been tested, but just throwing it out there.


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your young dog.
It was interesting thread to read since my dog had started having seizures last May and was diagnozed with epilepsy. Her seizures are very rare so she is not on the medication yet. She is also spayed, sometines it helps, i was told. She has a list of strange behaviors and some look like aggression. I'm just trying to manage her condition at this point. i wrote about her here
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...ary-formulas-anybody-used-successfully-25323/


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