# Where in the "real world" do you take your PPD to do protection work?



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I would expand that to include schutzhund and ring sport dogs, or even police service dogs not on duty or patrol. Where do you go with them besides your own property and the practice and trial field? This section is about dogs trained for the "real world." For you and your dog, what is the "real world"? What does that include?

Do you walk them in the neighborhood? Take them to stores? Do they stay in the car or do you take them in? What stores? What about restaurants or your office? 

A PPD isn’t really working if he isn’t with you. If you leave him at home, he’s just a guard dog. The sport dogs, well, what do you train for? A hobby? Of course this could lead into a discussion on live bites, but I’m not wanting to take it that far. I just want to know if your dog is even in the game or if he stays at home.

Someone asked about me so I'll say. I'm training a PPD. I'm in the early stages of training. Basically, I bought the ads that you see in the snob magazines with the faithful shepherd that protects the beautiful family of four at their sprawling estate with the luxury cars and the heli-pad and the Scarab tied up on the dock. I didn't pay $65,000 for an Executive Level III protection dog imported from Slovenia and trained by somebody you've never heard of, so I have to deal with reality.

I think there's legitimate PPD trainers out there that breed or import shepherds, socialize the dogs more than say a competition-only dog kept in the kennel, and they train the dog in Schutzhund, finish them with a little civil work and sell them to families like mine. I know the reality is that you can't just buy a hero-dog for any price so I got a puppy about a year ago and I'm doing some of the work myself because I thought if I can't have what the magazine is selling, I might as well enjoy the process (of doing the best I can).

Going back to the question, I take my dog any where I can and as often as I can. The reality is the mugger is not going to walk past the Scarab on my dock, snatch my wife's purse and make off in my B-3 Eurocopter. If my dog's not in the Walmart parking lot, or if he is but he's locked in a crate, how can he do his job?

I'm not looking for solutions to my personal problems. I'm wanting to probe the reality of PPD's further. The magazine sells them as a less-lethal alternative to a gun and more intelligent than a bullet, but if you keep them locked up at home with your arsenal of semi-autos, the APC in your RV garage and the three year supply of powdered ice cream, well, you'll be safer if you ever have a ninja problem on your compound. So seriously, is it just a hobby or what?


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

We should just let David Feliciano sp? come back. This way he does not have to assume various monikers.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

As for PSD, often times, store owners allow us to train in their store, after hours. They get a sign to put in their window, in full public view "Police Dogs train here after hours". The training is very realistic. We also conduct on post training anywhere within the city or in our case, the county as well. Parks, parking lots, used car lots etc. The officer is on-duty, subject to call. The dog is on his normal work cycle. Training may be a simple track, building search, area search or an all out "bail out". Any where we can deploy, safely can be our training ground. We also try to do this at varying hours since a unit is liable to be assigned to any shift.

DFrost


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

The reality for me is you need a low threshold dog who is quick to bite, doesn't like people and is always wary of all people. Test the dog and test him HARD with a decoy of your choice and it's done. Obedience is your only job.

The constant "PPD" training is for the people to feel like they are training their dog, the dog is what it is. The dog will either stay and bite or it won't, not a whole lot of training needed. It's a big time commitment to management of your dog. The so called training with a lot of ppd people consists of beating the shit out of the dog with a stick or chainsaw or stuff like that while in a suit for minutes at a time is kind of silly . The reality is that a person that gets bit is not fighting for to long. It's ALL the dog!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I take my dogs anywhere I feel like it that they are allowed. My bitch is protective and wary of strangers, she may get defensive on a walk at night if someone approaches. In the same breath, I take her with me to pick up my 7 year old from school, where she is mauled by multiple children wanting to pet the dog. She's ok with the kids in a public setting, she doesn't seem to enjoy it but it's tolerable.

Now if she's in my car and I leave the window cracked and leave her in it while I run into say, the post office...I wouldn't go sticking my hand the car if she doesn't know you. I also frequently leave my front door open with just the screen closed and I wouldn't just come walk into my house either. A friend of mine that she hadn't met before failed to knock on the door and just let himself in, he made it about 10 feet in. She didn't nail him but she had him cornered with her teeth showing while he screamed like a girl for me to come get her. Subsequently, she did end up biting him after he pushed me once, same with my ex-husband.

That's my ideal, a dog that will protect the owner/home/car but can also be socially civil in a public place where I don't have to worry about it biting someone.


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## Jeff Threadgill (Jun 9, 2010)

Store and property owners let us use their place. Parks, open fields, woods.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I let my PPD crap in Home Depot and do Protection work in my neighbors front yard...or was it the other way around? 
David err I mean Bart wink wink. Do you have any more videos?


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jack Roberts said:


> We should just let David Feliciano sp? come back. This way he does not have to assume various monikers.


You didn't sneak that one by me ;-)~ My first thought too. LMAO


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

PPD's are allowed in stores and restaurants? Hmm, I have a service dog that is subject to challenges. I'm not too familiar with the business of protection dogs. I'm assuming they are to protect the owner from attacks? Is this necessary in Home Depot or a restaurant. Maybe someone could explain this. I wasn't aware there are laws allowing public access to PPDs.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Gloria Miller said:


> PPD's are allowed in stores and restaurants? Hmm, I have a service dog that is subject to challenges. I'm not too familiar with the business of protection dogs. I'm assuming they are to protect the owner from attacks? Is this necessary in Home Depot or a restaurant. Maybe someone could explain this. I wasn't aware there are laws allowing public access to PPDs.


Hi Gloria,

The OP was about PPD but the other posters who stated they have access to public places to work PSD (Police Service Dogs) is a bit different. And from I gather from David Frost's post his team trains in public buildings (life like situations) after hours.

I train obedience (not bitework) in Home Depot all the time.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm not David. My question is real. The answers from the two K9 units were fair, good answers.

Al Curbow, that's an interesting perspective. I would have thought the more intuitive approach would be to use a high threshold dog to err on the side of caution. I mean the choice is to walk around with a loaded gun, or more like a grenade with the pin out and do what you can to keep it from going off (keep a squeeze on the trigger), or to have a well socialized dog, proven in a fair courage test, practiced on the hidden sleeve and you hope he's up to the job if god forbid someone needs bit. Who's the PPD for anyway? the man or the wife and kids? If it was my own bad self walking around, do I really need a dog to fight my fights? or is it just to represent? But if it's my wife and kids, would I give them a low threshold dog?

Ashley Campbell: sounds like the right dog for your job. Do you train in protection with her or just leave it up to her insticts? 

I would be interested to hear from people that train to higher levels in sport whether the dog is ever used (on duty, not necessarily a live bite) in the real world outside the house. I have a feeling that a lot of the dogs that go to higher levels in competition (not just titles) are kenneled, trained on the handler's property, the club property and they go to trials. They sell their washouts to PPD buyers: http://www.premierprotectiondogs.com/availability.html http://www.germanshepherdwatchdogs.com/german-shepherd-watchdogs-for-sale/
but otherwise the most the dogs protect are the kennel spiders.

Anyone train specifically PPD/PSA? Where does the dog go with you or yours besides home? Anyone used (had present) a PPD in a cafe on a regular basis? Office or business? Uncrated at the airport while traveling (private plane)? Any restaurant use? We've got one person safer at Home Depot.

Here's some sites that sell PPD's:

http://www.protectiondogs.com/
http://www.ultimatek9.com/protection-dogs-clients.html
http://www.cck9.com

I didn't dig up something obscure here. These are all front page Google results for "protection dogs."

Where do you think these dogs really go? Same place as Molly Mutt? I mean does the dude with the Bentley or Lambo take Otto to ride shotgun? Or is the reality that Otto gets a chain link kennel in the side yard and sometimes he gets to flop on the garage floor when Biff is tinkering on his classic 'vette.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Here's another good one with the photoshopped estate portraits, a private jet and the beemer.

http://www.harrisonk9.com/

What do you think of these google results for protection dogs? Are they representative of the kind of work that the protection dog community is doing in reality?


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

Here in Chicago PPD's are used to protect the property of the gangbangers and their drugs. There are trained pitbulls on nearly every block. I would really wonder why someone would feel the need for a PPD, especially in a restaurant. What restaurant would even allow this? 

Are you under the impression that any working dog is allowed in public restricted places? Home Depot is a pet friendly business...try taking that dog into a Target.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Bart Karmich said:


> Anyone train specifically PPD/PSA? Where does the dog go with you or yours besides home? Anyone used (had present) a PPD in a cafe on a regular basis? Office or business? Uncrated at the airport while traveling (private plane)? Any restaurant use? We've got one person safer at Home Depot.


I'm still new to PSA, but I'll bite. My two dogs I'm training in PSA can go just about wherever. I could likely have both as "office dogs." The female was a certified therapy dog and both have their CGCs/TTs. The male does dock diving, where the dogs have to be extremely environmentally and socially neutral because there are a lot of people, kids, and dogs with a very small space bubble when you're waiting for your turn to jump. Anyways, my female has a civil side but a crazy fast switch back to being social. My male is not quite as obviously civil, but has a slower switch and is a bit more aloof. Neither are fire breathers, but I'm still hoping to trial with them next year hopefully. I train with Michelle van Winkle, who will likely be going to PSA nationals with her male Malinois Zander again this year, and he's a nice social and stable dog. Cool sport dog!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

> Here's some sites that sell PPD's:
> 
> http://www.protectiondogs.com/
> http://www.ultimatek9.com/protection-dogs-clients.html
> http://www.cck9.com


Dear Not David

Do you really believe the nonsense on the websites you posted links to? $65K Executive Protection Dutch Shepherds?
Super secret training methods? The only thing these websites illustrate is marketing and BS. These PPD "trainers" prey on the fear and paranoia of people with more money then brains.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Dear Not David
> 
> Do you really believe the nonsense on the websites you posted links to? $65K Executive Protection Dutch Shepherds?
> Super secret training methods? The only thing these websites illustrate is marketing and BS. These PPD "trainers" prey on the fear and paranoia of people with more money then brains.


 
I don't think you read my post, especially the part about the purse snatcher making off in my B3 Eurocopter.

Ok, so what do you think about premierprotectiondogs.com and germanshepherdwatchdogs.com These are run by high level schutzhund competitors. Some of the dogs are the real thing. We've seen them. But they're washouts from competition. So is a real PPD just a Schutzhund washout? A rip-off? or a hobby? If you have a PPD, where in the real world does he work?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Bart Karmich said:


> I don't think you read my post, especially the part about the purse snatcher making off in my B3 Eurocopter.
> 
> Ok, so what do you think about premierprotectiondogs.com and germanshepherdwatchdogs.com These are run by high level schutzhund competitors. Some of the dogs are the real thing. We've seen them. But they're washouts from competition. So is a real PPD just a Schutzhund washout? A rip-off? or a hobby? If you have a PPD, where in the real world does he work?



There is no set standard for what a PPD is . People have different needs and/or wants for what they are looking for in a PPD . If you use the search function you will find several long discussions on what others want in a PPD or think a PPD should be . You will see a wide variety of things .


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Gloria Miller said:


> I would really wonder why someone would feel the need for a PPD, especially in a restaurant. What restaurant would even allow this?
> 
> Are you under the impression that any working dog is allowed in public restricted places? Home Depot is a pet friendly business...try taking that dog into a Target.


 
No. I'm aware it's actually pretty difficult to take a dog almost anywhere in civilized society unless you're disabled. Hence the thrust of this thread. Are PPD's a fraud? Top ten google results would suggest the most popular concept of them is basically that. Are they a hobby? If anyone puts serious effort into producing a PPD, I'm asking exactly where are they using them? Are they just guard dogs for the house? Are they obsolete since society shifted from pedestrian transport on public places to auto transport on private parking lots and stores? Obviously things have changed a lot since Herr Dobermann walked the streets of Apolda.

It's not impossible to take your PPD into a store, restaurant, cafe, or office, especially if you own them or you're a friend or "regular" and the owners don't bother about it. I'm asking the PPD community if this happens or not. If you don't need your PPD in a restaurant, where DO you need your PPD? Where do you actually put the PPD to work? Anywhere but home?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bart Karmich said:


> I don't think you read my post, especially the part about the purse snatcher making off in my B3 Eurocopter.
> 
> Ok, so what do you think about premierprotectiondogs.com and germanshepherdwatchdogs.com These are run by high level schutzhund competitors. Some of the dogs are the real thing. We've seen them. But they're washouts from competition. So is a real PPD just a Schutzhund washout? A rip-off? or a hobby? If you have a PPD, where in the real world does he work?


I like to train at bum park


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

not a PPD but my last dog was a "truck dog". he came everywhere with me. i work in construction he came with for about 3 or 4 years until he decided not to let the job sup. into a house one day. i even used to bring him in the bar with me, but i dont think most bars would do that. he really loved stale popcorn and spilled beer. there are 4 or 5 other subs that bring their "truck dogs" to work with them everyday. i see dogs in Home Depot and Menards alot. As long as your dog is behaved i think you might be suprised at the places people let them in. Is that what your asking?


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

I've helped run senarios (handle and catch) my friends' PPDs. Parking lots day and night, parking garages, public parks, even just walking down the street. The key is having a properly trained PPD and a good set of decoys to run many real world senarios. You want more than one good decoy becuase if you keep using the same person over and over you can teach the dog to look for that one person in a group. --- or so is my understanding from what my mentors have told me.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I do PSA and my dog is also my PPD. I take him wherever I think I may need him and sometimes take him just because I like his company. Mostly I want him with my when I am out walking. I walk alot for excersize on the levees around town. Sometimes I load up and drive until I find a place in the middle of nowhere, that looks like a good place to walk. I take my cellphone and my dog.

If I have to go to the store after dark, I take my dog and leave him in the car. I'm not worried about being mugged in broad daylight at the mall or Home Depot but when my dog was younger, he went there to for socialization, environmental proofing and all that crap. 

I have some very high dollar stuff in my backyard, so when we both leave for the day, the dog gets let out of his kennel, loose in the yard. 

Who here is so important that they have stalkers or someone gunning for them 24/7? Not me, I'm just a woman who goes out alone alot and doesn't need to make herself look like an easy target. Just having any big dog there is 95% of the battle. Who is going to mess with the 95lbs GSD? If your the 5% stupid enough to try...good luck with that. I hope your health insurance will pay for a prosthetic arm.


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## Tiffany Damm (Jun 1, 2010)

Mine goes everywhere. Goes with me to pick up the cash drop at my store, pretty much anywhere that will let me bring him in- which is just about everywhere as long as he behaves which we usually reply he listens better than our kid.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

We've had PSD Handlers from various Departments come out to train with us at our usual training location: a nice dry, temperature-controlled warehouse with lights & indoor plumbing \\/, as well as stuff to hide in, on, around, behind, etc... From what I've seen in my area, it's the same as David describes: training can & does happen any/everywhere.



David Frost said:


> As for PSD, often times, store owners allow us to train in their store, after hours. They get a sign to put in their window, in full public view "Police Dogs train here after hours". The training is very realistic. We also conduct on post training anywhere within the city or in our case, the county as well. Parks, parking lots, used car lots etc. The officer is on-duty, subject to call. The dog is on his normal work cycle. Training may be a simple track, building search, area search or an all out "bail out". Any where we can deploy, safely can be our training ground. We also try to do this at varying hours since a unit is liable to be assigned to any shift.
> 
> DFrost


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Anytime they have those riots in California I think it would be an excellent opportunity to get some bites on real life criminal dirtbags...


Just imagine the potential during the LA/OJ riots


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> The reality for me is you need a low threshold dog who is quick to bite, doesn't like people and is always wary of all people. Test the dog and test him HARD with a decoy of your choice and it's done. Obedience is your only job.
> 
> !


 
I'm not so sure about "not liking people" but "wary" until he knows them could be right. However, wary not being part of being anxious around strangers.

Anyone can own a people-aggressive dog if he wants to, the control of this dog is of major importance of course but can be done as you say.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think PPD use is going to vary from individual to individual in a big way. For the "more money they brains" crowd that buys the 65,000 dogs, do you really see the person going into the grocery store, post office, etc? They have maids, personal helpers, etc that do those sorts of things for them. When it comes to travel they aren't going to have a problem taking Fido along, since they are probably traveling on their private plane. The dogs are going to protect the home when the family is there, the owner when they are out jogging, or playing golf, taking the kids to the park, etc. And really, if someone famous shows up with a well behaved dog at a restaurant and wants to bring it in, how many people will say "no"?

For the average citizen, I think the uses are similar, but probably a little more limited since we don't own private jets, restuarants, night clubs, etc. 

I trained PPD's many years ago with an organization, and a lot of the dogs we trained accompanied their owners anywhere they were allowed. If they weren't allowed into a facility (grocery store, restuarant, etc) then they waited outside in a vehicle, or tied up (not recommended, but some people still did it). But they went jogging, to the park, to the ATM, etc. Except for the hours a person is at work or school, the amount of time a person spends in locations the dog isn't allowed during an average day really isn't that high. If the owner is traveling, the dog goes with them. My dogs have accompanied me into many rest stop bathroom over the years LOL They have also been with me when a vehicle breaks down, or I get a flat. My focus is on sport work now, but I know who will bite if needed, and that's who I take into the rest stop bathroom.

Last thought, if someone really NEEDS a PPD, they have a stalker or whatever, they are going to need more then a PPD. But they are also going to alter their lifestyle so they don't go to places they can't take the dog. For the rest of the people, they take they dog when they can, but when they can't they really aren't in that much danger anyway. I'd have to dig out some stats, but I think people are more likely to be attacked in their home, or while stopped in a vehicle, or walking down the street, at the park, etc (all places a dog can go) then in a restaurant or grocery store anyway, so just because the dog can't be with someone 100% of the time, doesn't mean the dog can't do it's job when needed.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

OMG , they leave the dogs out in the car all alone ! 

Sorry had to say it . I hear that everyday at work from some know it all .


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> OMG , they leave the dogs out in the car all alone !
> 
> Sorry had to say it . I hear that everyday at work from some know it all .


LOL I have the metal Owen's crates in the back of my truck. You should hear how many times I hear "OMG those poor dogs are going to bake in those metal boxes". I usually tell people "stick your hand in there, well, don't actually :twisted:, and you will feel how much cooler it is inside the crate then it is out here in the sun, because the crate reflects the light/heat, instead of absorbing it"

Not to mention they can see the dogs in the crate, who are clearly just hanging out and not even panting. Ummm, if they were hot, they would probably be panting.

I even see people pointing and talking excitedly to the person next to them as I'm driving down the road LOL


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