# So what is a good test?



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Not wanting to hijack a few other threads i would like to know what you would consider a good way to test a dog .
Lets say you do IPO and think KNPV dogs are not that strong,how would you test the dog to make a believer out of you?
I am not saying at all Ipo or KNPV dogs or any other type of sport dog is better or worse then the other.
Let us take dogs from all walks of life and test them all the same way,how would you do that?
I have worked dogs for quite a while,In Canada,France and in Holland, so i do have a bit of understanding about different approaches to dog sports.
On of my dogs was IPO 2 before we switched to KNPV,he did very well in both venues and later became a 
well known psd.
When i read some of the really stupid posts some people write i can not help but :evil:
Maybe some people don't post anymore because it is vechten tegen de bierkaai?
Sorry if i am a bit over the top,it has been very hot here for a long time.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't want to start listing specific tests at this point, but overall i would say the tester MUST have the ability to put pressure on a dog and be able to judge the reaction WITHOUT breaking the dog down

i've seen a few different tests done with dogs that the tester had never seen before. quite different testing procedures were used

overall comments :
- i don't think the testing has to be age related
- but i think you should have a good idea what the dog will be used for before you test it
- at different stages of training the dog may be able to respond to different levels of pressure. which means i don't feel testing should be a one time thing. and i also think trial competition is a good example of such a test
- and i think testing can be set up for different things (how civil, how environmental stable, how nervy, etc)
- the "failures" would probably be obvious, but the "borderlines" are probably more subjective, based on the tester
- also might depend on how much time the trainer has to get a "finished product"

when you say "all walks of life", are you talking about a specific type of K9 protection sport, or any dog for any use ?

- obviously you wouldn't use the same test for KNPV that you would if you were going to test potential as a guide dog or SAR K9, right ?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Not wanting to hijack a few other threads i would like to know what you would consider a good way to test a dog .
> Lets say you do IPO and think KNPV dogs are not that strong,how would you test the dog to make a believer out of you?
> I am not saying at all Ipo or KNPV dogs or any other type of sport dog is better or worse then the other.
> Let us take dogs from all walks of life and test them all the same way,how would you do that?
> ...


 No I do not think it is fighting a losing battle. If I thought that I wouldn't never buy a dog again.

Your question is however, very complicated to answer.

First, I would have to search out an experienced breeder who tests his dogs to see what strengths they have (not the compulsory breeding tests).

I would visit or read about his dogs' achievements. I would visit the breeder and learn about how HE tests his dogs, not just to get through IPO or KNPV.

I would check out the health of the dogs he breeds from, HD, ED, spine, etc.

I would not care less about how many of his dogs had excelled at Trials IPO/KNPV.

I would visit one or two of his litters - observe how the litter is enacting within itself. I would ask to take out a pup from the litter and watch it's behaviour away from it.

Testing begins as above and not later for me. I would not be happy to buy a 2 year old dog that I had never seen its upbringing, etc.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

As far as a courage test is concerned. .. its a nice idea to think that a dog that passes it is a good dog... time will tell what it will do in an unknown situation tho. 

I believe that each owner knows where their dog is in its courage and or lack there of. It's not hard to take a long good look at your dog and to then be honest with yourself of what you have at the end of your leash. 

Never make your dog bigger or stronger than he is towards others or yourself because at the end of the day, be it in training or on the field, he will show who and what he really is and will make you look stupid in the process.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

one test for dogs from all walks of life is confusing me 

are we talking only about an IPO or KNPV courage test ?
i have seen very confident stable dogs with high drives that would work hard all day long hunting game but wouldn't bite them and back off when the boar was cornered. but they would still "pass" their owner's test and be used in the hunt


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

I agree with Alice wait what dog is doing in a unknown situation
and different areas /scenarios.

A KNPV dog can easy doing the IPO stick attack, but I,m sure not all the IPO dogs will passed the KNPV courage stick attack.I,m not saying in IPO there are no good dogs.

( I don,t wanna make an other contest IPO vs KNPV)


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Pay someone to walk up to said dog very calmly, and then very quickly reach down and start to choke the dog vigorously. Don't forget to shoot video so the dogs response can be compaired to others. Oh and don't forget to get a waiver signed by both the man and the dog's owner (because one of them is going to get hurt). 

This is the Lannie Dulin Courage Test Brevet level. :mrgreen:


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

jack van strien said:


> Not wanting to hijack a few other threads i would like to know what you would consider a good way to test a dog .
> Lets say you do IPO and think KNPV dogs are not that strong,how would you test the dog to make a believer out of you?
> I am not saying at all Ipo or KNPV dogs or any other type of sport dog is better or worse then the other.
> Let us take dogs from all walks of life and test them all the same way,how would you do that?
> ...


I've read this twice and still not sure what you are describing. You mention testing "sport dogs" but then suggest a test for dogs "from all walks of life". You also do not clearly identify WHAT exactly is being tested for. Without defining the purpose (the "what") how can you create the test? Even then, it seems to me that different people, sports, groups, etc. have different interpretations of what they want to see from the dog during a given test.

Personally I don't believe that there is any point to "test them all the same way" since I am looking for very different things than most of the sport dog trainers I have met... Different than many of the PPD trainers as well. You develop a test to evaluate what you yourself are specifically looking for in the dog. It proves nothing. It serves only as a guide... it means little more than that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

pretty simple.

test dogs environmentals out of drive

test dogs hunt drive along with environmentals

test dogs fight, heart and courage, not in a sport or field environment with equipment, and hidden, and muzzle, with good "agitator"


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

To clarify i am talking about protection dogs.
Just a few opinions so far and already different views.
I was hoping to get a response from MM but maybe he is still in the thick of it,also Alex is welcome to respond.
It would of course be very unfair to test a trained dog in a different sport,a trained dog has rules and rules restrict reaction.
What i have seen a lot that no matter what kind of dog ,trained or untrained can tell you a lot about being confident in different social environments.
The best example i can come up with is a five week old pup,they just follow you and don't seem to notice anything else around them.Just basic trust and no worries.
I think it will be impossible to come up with a n all problems solved test because we are working with animals
and they have moods and feelings just like the rest of us.
And Alice,good advice!
Don't make anything bigger,stronger or thicker than it really is.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

hidden sleeve and muzzle work.

tie the dog out in an unknown area and have stranger with no equipment put pressure on the dog (obviously no handler in sight). i think people call it the steak out test etc

have dog in a stand and stay, owner is about 100 metres away from dog. then have the decoy run from a good distance towards the dog screaming and yelling, stick etc. ( kind of like the opposite of what normally happens for a courage test). i have seen a lot of good "guard dogs" fail this test. the dog standing still and having someone run at it puts a lot of pressure on the dog.

also for some reason i dont like it when the suits in various sports are always the same colour, like in knpv their black. i feel like the dogs get conditioned to the suit like they do a ipo sleeve, doesnt test shit but how high a dogs prey drive is in my opinion. ( ps i love prey drive and understand its very useful in bitework)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

If you think that that would be a good way to test a dogs mettle and character then you don't only have a thick D but you are just THICK in general! 

There is no good way to test a dog since you can not test for any and every circumstance that the dog will encounter in its life Michael. Its a crap shoot most of the time what a trained dog will do since its been trained for a whole series of exercises and fancy tricks so this is useless at best and a waste of time at worst. Real life will show what the dog is and if the owner of the dog is honest with himself and his dog he will know what his dog is capable off. 

A test is usefull in some ways to show what the dog MIGHT do in a certain scenario but its not a given that the dog will react that way when put it in a different scenario. The only good test out there is knowing your dog and knowing what he is capable off and not making him out to be more or less then he really is. 



Michael Murphy said:


> hidden sleeve and muzzle work.
> 
> tie the dog out in an unknown area and have stranger with no equipment put pressure on the dog (obviously no handler in sight). i think people call it the steak out test etc
> 
> ...


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> hidden sleeve and muzzle work.
> 
> tie the dog out in an unknown area and have stranger with no equipment put pressure on the dog (obviously no handler in sight). i think people call it the steak out test etc
> 
> ...


Depends on the bloodline though right?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The test doesn't matter if you know how to read a dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i think tests of all types are useful if you have a clear training goal and need to find potential weaknesses that you don't have time to deal with in your training program 

pretty easy to see major weaknesses both environmentally stimulated and human stimulated, but it all depends on what your standards are and how high they are set

a 30 min eval on a trial field by a TD may not tell you what you need, but i've seen a few do just that
- also seen vids of the "masters" at work going down a line of dogs and evaluating them even quicker

ability to correctly read a dog is just as important in testing as it would be during any phase of a dog's training, or "after-training" performance or recerts

but not sure i would agree testing has no value. the validity can never be 100% verified because those who get eliminated obviously have no chance to prove that the tester was wrong, and i think it applies the same way to dogs 

example i have faced :
i would rarely suggest a family dog be killed for aggression issues based on an initial test unless the family was not capable of putting in the time to deal with it. 

just my .02

Jack
- is it worth it to list a variety of tests for IPO and KNPV suitability and debate the value of them ? to me, it would probably be too subjective to be of much value. isn't one mostly for a sport goal and the other a stage to prep a dog for police work ?
- or are you talking about the "testing" that is actually a part of the trial routine ? that debate for sure would get arguments


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

A great test for your dog,to see if they will WORK FOR YOU while not in 'drive'........would be to locate the next Weight Pull event near you and enter it. There is no food/toy baiting ..and no leash pulling to get the dog to pull it down the track.

Just you standing there asking your dog to do something that is is unnatural to them.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

jack van strien said:


> Not wanting to hijack a few other threads i would like to know what you would consider a good way to test a dog .
> *Lets say you do IPO and think KNPV dogs are not that strong,how would you test the dog to make a believer out of you?*
> I am not saying at all Ipo or KNPV dogs or any other type of sport dog is better or worse then the other.
> Let us take dogs from all walks of life and test them all the same way,how would you do that?
> ...


Train and trial it in IPO.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Travis Ragin said:


> A great test for your dog,to see if they will WORK FOR YOU while not in 'drive'........would be to locate the next Weight Pull event near you and enter it. There is no food/toy baiting ..and no leash pulling to get the dog to pull it down the track.
> 
> Just you standing there asking your dog to do something that is is unnatural to them.


My girlfried did that with one of our Malinois puppies. Guess what happened?
She won a National Weight Pull title with a 60lb Malinois female!!!! LOL, the pit bull people were SOOOO mad about that! ha ha.
Here was this little female Malinois who was just a house dog really, with no training or conditioning program, put her in a harness and she pulled the house down!


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Sounds cool,great work!

I've encountered pit bull handlers who displayed some mild forms of 'breed bias' towards us at events, and I have a mastiff with cropped ears who is often mistaken for an APBT lol. It's great that you entered the trial,because lack of participation in any organized events, could lead to all of them being viewed by non-participants as archaic,unnecessary and eventually discarded. I feel that they are all interconnected like links in a chain. A huge WP supersite-pulldoggies-....does not have a server anymore,and in some WP organizations there is a shockingly low schedule of events this year.

When you get a chance,what is your perspective on the trial itself as a test of a dog?

thx


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

never been to a weight pull.
is there more to these events besides being a "super restrained" recall with some level of distractions ?
- are dogs pulling in groups against each other or individually ?
- is time to the goal factored in or just the amount being pulled ?

- i would imagine some dogs might really like to pull weights and enjoy it more than others. 
- how would you measure the degree it is being tested as "working for the owner" as compared to being a self satisfying behavior ?

maybe i'm missing something but don't think this would fit into the type of dog test the OP was asking about since i don't see it as protection related


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

I see WP at its foundation.....as a display of Obedience.

Dogs pull an ever increasing loaded meat cart in individual runs down a set track against other dogs who weigh about the same as each other.....in other words,American Bulldogs do not compete against the Chihuahua's.

For the Competitors,time to the goal and lbs. of meat pulled are both factored in. So if 2 dogs pull 10,000 lbs and no more.....then the dog that manged to pull it the fastest is the clear winner.






> - i would imagine some dogs might really like to pull weights and enjoy it more than others.
> - how would you measure the degree it is being tested as "working for the owner" as compared to being a self satisfying behavior ?


I really should be able to give a more concise answer here....if you would first let me know which specific Organized Working Dog events you *do not* consider to be a display of dogs indulging in self satisfying behavior.

thx


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

rick smith said:


> .
> is there more to these events besides being a "super restrained" recall with some level of distractions ?


Yes,

For instance, it could be called a super restrained HEEL with some level of distractions.......if that is the way you can get your dog to pull it down the track.

There are several other ways too......and you could label each of them with a 'super restrained' _____ just the same.

Another 'more' or plus to these events would be that this task,and how to get their dog to complete it....... are all left up to the handler to think up on their own and choose what works best for their team. No prior training needed. 


If a Working Dog Event requires training to do well in.....doesn't that negate the *test of the dog*....and then becomes a *test of the training*?


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