# Full mouth grip: How important



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I know most police k9 guys do not care if the dog doesn't care if the grip isn't full as long as its strong and committed. For those who train for sport especially Shutzhund/IPO what do you think of a dog with a very strong bite that just isn't full? I decoyed some dogs a few months ago and ironically the dog that hurt most didn't have a very full grip but he was thrashing my arm and it hurt real bad.
Is it the fullness or the strength of the grip that matters more?


----------



## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

Not the Shutzhund/IPO response, however, my own personal preference is a strong grip. My mal will get his full grip if the decoy stops moving for a split second so he can bite deeper, but with ring the grip needs to be strong so they don't slip off during the initial hit and rapid deceleration (swinging around if caught properly... )

Grant


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It doesn't seem to me that biting suits and sleeves is anything like the real world. A full bite on animal or person is a strong bit and isnt going to slip pf without removing a lot of flesh. A full bite also shows me a dog that has committed. The dogs that get partial bites and shake usually get ther ass handed to them by ***** or whatever. Dogs that get the full bite and crush and shake destroy everything.


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Full bite all the way.. Nothing against what's desirable in other sports and I could certainly appreciate a 3/4 grip that's crushing; but like Don said, a full bite to me shows commitment and I'm not as concerned about a dog coming off the grip or breaking teeth.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've seen full bites from dogs who have gone in, grabbed the sleeve with a full grip and hung on to it like a wet rag.

I don't think you can judge the "full bite" without seeing the dog's engagement. Some good dogs go in with fury, maybe don't always manage the full bite but here, the judge often asks the helper how strong the grip was.

The Briard I had, had often lousy bites, very often not full, very often like a sewing machine but, he went in with speed, never hesitated and at one trial in mid-Winter, the helper looked "in a state of fatigue" afterwards.

As for police dogs, I should think that the bite, full or not, is irrelevant, more so the speed and commitment that the dog indicates; the speed and ensuing bite, without hesitation, is obviously tantamount to commitment.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I've had full bites that weren't hard bites. Full and hard shows me that the dog is committed and into it! 8-[


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I've had full bites that weren't hard bites. Full and hard shows me that the dog is committed and into it! 8-[


Don't shoot me but here goes. Full bite that is not bone crunching powerful has more prey or 100% prey. A full bite that is bone crunching is a balanced bite, the balance being prey/defense.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ahh yes, the balanced bite. Nothing to do with genetics, no, can't possibly be that genetics determine that, it has to be prey.

Go and shoot yourself, you should have edited that.


----------



## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Had a discussion about this last week with some security guards. They have 2 dogs, 1 trained KNPV and 1 young dog they train themself. Both dogs pull like hell on the suit and only bite the "jute" of the suit. 

They are in their work in Holland only allowed to use the dogs in selfdefense, but these dogs how they bite now will only make "textile-damage", if they even bite if needed. 

We discussed the preferred full bite, they don't see it like that. In their eyes a full bite is only something that is connected to sport guys. And if how their dogs bite at this moment on the suite will imply that when you start training them on something like Kevlar that they won't bite (as there is no loose fabric to grab and they need to close their grip around the arm or leg instead of on a piece of fabric) they will see it then and will start training on it then. 

I told them I thought it was the wrong way, then you'll have to teach your dog twice. And then not even speaking of the impact a dog with a bite like theirs (not full and pulling and as their young dog a crossbred Malinois of 67 kilo) has on the back of the decoy. 

They said, we don't mind, maybe it's even better that they only bite fabric damage as we are not allowed to use them only as self-defense, but (my reaction) isn't it so that if you need some self-defense that you want a good bite dog that will make some impact?


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> but (my reaction) isn't it so that if you need some self-defense that you want a good bite dog that will make some impact?


Would certainly be what I would want also, Carmen. But depending on the laws in your area maybe it really isn't worth the serious headache and time in court if those dogs inflict what some would consider "too much" damage. 

Again, I personally wouldn't have any desire to work security with a dog that was an intense clothes-nipper, but maybe with the hooligans in your neck of the woods a mean looking dog making any contact with them is enough to scare their [-o< off.

Did I read that right? a 67 KILO mali mix??


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It would seem to me, catching a suit with a poor frontal bite grip, is going to be much like a dog grabbing and ear on a hog running full speed and catching with the same type of weak grip. Two hundred lbs of mass with a tough hide moving at 30 mph is what will pull those canines out. I have seen it happen. Dogs using frontal bites getting swung around because a handler doesn't feel the pain will put a lot more pressure on the canines than any full bite. Full crushing bites are killing bites. Any dog that jumps in and grabs a **** or a badger with a weak frontal bite and gets the fur and starts shaking is going to get his ass handed to him. With a full bite, you can hear the bones breaking. Biting people without a suit is much the same. Dogs with a poiwerful bite apply so much pressure that it will incapacitate most people right there. A frontal bite does look pretty bad damage wise because you can see the blood and the damage. A full crushing bite you can't see the extent of the damage, but, a strong dog will burst every capilary in the area of the bite. When a dog shakes with a weak bite on real flesh, it tears the surface, looks gross and many times tears the grip loose. When a dog with a full, powerfull bite gets you, it drives those canines deep into the muscle and when they start shaking, even though what you see is puncture wounds, those canines have totally destoyed the underlying muscle, burst all the capilaries and pretty much rendered the limb useless. It just doesn't look as bad. Other than for use with a full bite during the kill, the canines are for ripping and tearing pieces off a dead carcass while eating. That is real life which has nothing to do with what people want to see while biting a suit.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don, I'm now afraid to go clean kennels...
"Muzzy...Bad to the Bone!"
Deep K-9 Bites,
Pricelss!
=D>


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL Howard, I have said before that if my dogs didn't see me as a superior being rather than another alpha dog to be challenged, I wouldn't even be able to go in the yard because any of my males could take me down. LOL Hunting with dogs you get to really see what damage the dogs are capable of inflicting on larger species like hogs. Can't see anything until you start skinning them out and the underlying damage from a full bite is impressive.


----------



## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Dave Martin said:


> Did I read that right? a 67 KILO mali mix??


That's what they told me, didn't see it yet, think they are making him bigger than that he is


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Getting naked...the real untold story! The same mindset for waterfowl hunting, I want to see what shot size has hit the bird and in what choke size. Removing the hide tells lots. 

Pack Command: The nice thing about my dogs is all honor my directions/commands/yelling. And I don't think it has anything to do with fea,r as much as an understanding of the pack leadership role. It kills me when I see threads on the topic or get OB calls and the words are*,"How can I get my dog to treat me as a leader?"* 

When you have to ask that, YOU NEED A STUFFED ANIMAL! #-o


----------



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Don Turnipseed,

Thanks for your last post. Only people who have had hunting dogs can appreciate what a true hard bite is.

I had a 15" beagle once that got a busy (2 smaller beagles were harassing it from in front) lynx from behind, bit down on it's spine just below the ribs at the junction of the pelvis and crushed the big cat's spine. I could not believe what I had just seen and heard. That crunching cracking noise was sickening.

If ringsport dogs bit like that nobody would want to decoy.

GG


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ahh yes, the balanced bite. Nothing to do with genetics, no, can't possibly be that genetics determine that, it has to be prey.
> 
> Go and shoot yourself, you should have edited that.


Go train harder, haha.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The hardest biting dog with a super deep grip that I've seen was a show line WG SchIII. 
Trouble is it looked like it was total fear. Bite and bite hard or your getting you ass kicked kind of bite. No doubt it wouldn't hold that bite if it thought for one min it had a way out. 
I've not had a hunting terrier that didn't have a shit shaking, go for broke bite...but those bassids are crazy.
Not all were super deep though. There's also a big difference between crushers and shakers but they all get it done. 
I've seen quite a few bully breeds that had shallow grips. I've "heard" more then once that was because it's easier to breathe and hang on if "whatever" isn't crammed down their throat. That sort of makes sense but who knows!
You can teach a full mouth grip but if it's not natural to that dog then it's going away under pressure.
Just an observation because I'm not a ring person. If the decoy is making an effort to avoid the bite then it makes sense that a full mouth grip is going to seen less, thus not super important for the judging. 
The Bottom line, for me, is the heart is more important then what sort of grip they have.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

sorry about another newb question but the purpose of the leg bites in ring, i think it mainly to the front of the leg?? is that practical in a PP dog BTW i don't own a PPD. i mean if it was a police dog wouldn't it be easy to smash a dog from above if it is biting yr leg?? i realise the pain is intense n all but jus wondering why this focus in ring. go easy this is a genuine question.


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Part of my training is a full mouth grip. We try to develope the bite to minimize the damage caused by the dog. It's actually part of our testing process too. If the dog is frontal and type-writer biting, they are going to cause many more punctures. Plus that can mean the dog isn't very confident. In an ideal deployment, there are 4 punctures and the dog holds the bite. Depending on the circumstances of the deployment, we may not get that. 

In sport, its about points. On the street, its about minimizing liability. As far as Ring Sports dogs in an LE deployment, I'm not a fan. We have had a few FR dogs in our unit. They will go for the arms/back in a training enviorement but under the stress of a real street deployment, they often go back to their foundation and bite the legs. While this does usually stop the suspect from running, it doesn't take away any arms that the dog can be hit, stabbed, or shot with. Yes, you can kick a dog if they are on your arm and maybe do something with your free arm but I'll take 50% less threat anyday.


----------



## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> sorry about another newb question but the purpose of the leg bites in ring, i think it mainly to the front of the leg?? is that practical in a PP dog BTW i don't own a PPD. i mean if it was a police dog wouldn't it be easy to smash a dog from above if it is biting yr leg?? i realise the pain is intense n all but jus wondering why this focus in ring. go easy this is a genuine question.


It's apples and oranges... police K-9s are there to protect their handler and the public, and then themselves as best possible. A ring dog is taught to get the decoy at the earliest possible moment and not let go, and the decoy isn't there to hurt the dog so protection from it's "adversary" isn't a priority for ring dogs.

To answer your question, in ring it's spectacular to see a high biting dog go flying through the air and catch the decoy, but it's also an easier attack to esquive for the decoy and potentially dangerous for all parties involved IMO. I can move my upper body out of the way a lot faster than my hips. And if you're going for points I want the earliest possible bite for the most points I can get. A police K-9 isn't taught to avoid getting esquived, besides, your average "bad guy" probably doesn't have the presence of mind to square off on the dog, fake one direction and then run laterally to avoid getting bit. I would imagine most police bites are either some form of biting a turd hiding in the bushes or a flee type thing.

And I don't worry about using my dog in a "real" situation so his training works fine for me. If it ever hit the fan when I was out with my dog, my dog gets put in a down stay (that I hope he holds) and I'll take care of business. I'm under no illusions, if allowed he's the real deal and would engage immediately, but I've put too much training and effort to get my dog where he's at to allow some asshole to lay a whooping on him.







My dog is like my hockey skates. He's equipment I use to participate in a sport that I love.

Grant


----------



## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I have a friend whos dog is not ever satisfied. He bites deep then deeper. One of the hardest biting dogs I have decoyed. More that once he has said he wished the dog wouldnt swallow so much suit. He has a hard time breathing, then the amount of suit he fills his mouth up makes it that much harder for him. In ring you dont need deep. I think a good solid bite is sufficient for ring sport.

Also look at Pearson he bites high apperantly didnt miss very often. Have to teach the same stuff just higher.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thanks Grant good explanation, makes perfect sense now. from the context of the sentence i assume "esquive" means to evade/dodge.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Pete Stevens said:


> Part of my training is a full mouth grip. We try to develope the bite to minimize the damage caused by the dog. It's actually part of our testing process too. If the dog is frontal and type-writer biting, they are going to cause many more punctures. Plus that can mean the dog isn't very confident. In an ideal deployment, there are 4 punctures and the dog holds the bite. Depending on the circumstances of the deployment, we may not get that.
> 
> In sport, its about points. On the street, its about minimizing liability. As far as Ring Sports dogs in an LE deployment, I'm not a fan. We have had a few FR dogs in our unit. They will go for the arms/back in a training enviorement but under the stress of a real street deployment, they often go back to their foundation and bite the legs. While this does usually stop the suspect from running, it doesn't take away any arms that the dog can be hit, stabbed, or shot with. Yes, you can kick a dog if they are on your arm and maybe do something with your free arm but I'll take 50% less threat anyday.


Hi Pete,
You mentioned frontal bites being as a result of lack of confidence, is it possible that there is some other reason a dog's bite isn't full?


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Sure- I've seen dogs that want to bite but have something phyically wrong with them so its not always confidence. I trained with an intense little malinios. He would bite, yelp, release, bite, yelp, release....repeat. Turns out the little guy had nerve damage in his jaw. I've also trained with a GSD that had teeth issues. He was a sport dog, actually a rescue dog. The own/handler pulled more out of this dog than I thought was possible. But when his jaws hit the sleeve, he would go full mouth and then slip to frontal. This dog had pain everytime he bit. But most of the time, its confidence. Full/deep is a commitment to the bite and to drag the prey down. Frontal is "I'll hang on but I really don't want to be here."


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Pete Stevens said:


> Sure- I've seen dogs that want to bite but have something phyically wrong with them so its not always confidence. I trained with an intense little malinios. He would bite, yelp, release, bite, yelp, release....repeat. Turns out the little guy had nerve damage in his jaw. I've also trained with a GSD that had teeth issues. He was a sport dog, actually a rescue dog. The own/handler pulled more out of this dog than I thought was possible. But when his jaws hit the sleeve, he would go full mouth and then slip to frontal. This dog had pain everytime he bit. But most of the time, its confidence. Full/deep is a commitment to the bite and to drag the prey down. Frontal is "I'll hang on but I really don't want to be here."


 
Thanks Pete,
Reason i asked is i decoyed a dog some months ago with a frontal grip(sleeve was halfway in the mouth) but the dog was really committed to the bite and really hurt my arm, i didn't think he was not confident because during the revier he was in my face and really barking strongly. It seems some dogs just don't want to bite full for whatever reason.


----------

