# My thoughts on Hip Dysplasia



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This is a subject that has been brought up, off and on, on every dog board around. Most everyone agrees it is a problem. It was virtually unheard of until sometime in the 30's from what I can come up with. By the 50's and 60's it was out of control. Let's take a good look at it from the beginning. From the outset, HD was blamed on genetics. It is easy to blame things on things we don't understand and that is what was done. As the years went by, and genetics was better understood, HD was blamed on a combination of genetics and nutrition. Next, inbreeding had to accept it's share of the blame because it is not well understood anymore. Now multiple genes has been added to the list. There are still no solutions. Why? I say they are looking down the wrong hole and always have been and it is a case of tunnel vision.
First off, if it were genetic, it would have been noticeable that dogs were that impaired long before the 30's. Where does that leave us? Maybe it was derived from a mutation? That won't hold an once of water because it turned up in virtually every breed. No one could even compute the odds of that happening. Secondly, genetics works in pairs with an anomoly being the club foot. Even with the thalydimide babies, if there was a hand on one elbo, it was on both. Peoples ears are generally the same height as are eyes. Legs and arms are very close. Genetics works in pairs as a general rule. If one hip was gentically bad....they should both be bad or to say the least.....very close. The genetic theory does not wash nor will they ever solve it looking in that hole.
So, HD starts showing up in about the same time frame of the 30's. Why? What happened? What would so many varied breeds have in common? More and more people were moving out of rural America to the city because of the depression maybe. Dogs of every breed became house pets at an increasing rate. Those that were not were still brought in to whelp litters in the pantry, in a whelping box, in the bathroom. Hard, flat surfaces rather than a nice rounded whole. In a natural setting, the mom never lays on the pups or steps on them when very young. This was a common occurence once they were moved to the house. Pups lay on top of each other to generate warmth. Some are on the bottom with one hip on that flat surface with the weight of the others on top of them. Could that be why one hip is good and the other bad?
 Let's look at one of the biggest hazards in raising pups in the house. The slick floor. How many of you have ever seen a litter of 4 week old pups romping across a room with wall to wall carpeting all day. It does not happen. They are put in a room with slick floors that can be cleaned. They have no muscle control at these early stages and most of you have probably seen them when their legs go opposite directions while playing. When you see thise legs splayed to the side, instead of thing how cute they are, think, "there goes the hips". Yes pups are flexible for sure, but, they have soft joints and the legs are no made to go in but a couple of directions....sideways is not one of them. Outside, you will find no slick surfaces. 
There will be no answers to the problem because of genetics. It isn't there. Besides, there is just to much money being made to stop now. How did I arrive at this assumption? I have a lot of dogs, have seen a lot of pups, the dogs are inbred, and the pups are as fat as little pigs. Everything says I should have HD but there is none. Why?


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

My thinking is the problem happens more after the welping box. Could be the food is too rich causing bones and body to grow too quickly along with too little exercise. We have a much higher incidence of diabetes in humans especially looking at the native american population all due to diet. IMO. 

However, having raised a few chicks on slick floors... it can have an effect.

It was probably always around, just never labeled and diagnosed. Old Fido just had rheumatism and left it at that. Just thought of as growing old.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Scholes said:


> My thinking is the problem happens more after the welping box. Could be the food is too rich causing bones and body to grow too quickly along with too little exercise. We have a much higher incidence of diabetes in humans especially looking at the native american population all due to diet. IMO.


Too little real exersize. Good point. The weaker the musculature, the easier it is for injury for sure. 



> However, having raised a few chicks on slick floors... it can have an effect.


I use to raise exotics. When they had splayed legs we would tie them together at the right spacing for a couple of days and they would be fine once they developed some muscle. Birds have extremely fast systems. If they were going to be on a slick surface at all it was a good idea to tie the legs



> It was probably always around, just never labeled and diagnosed. Old Fido just had rheumatism and left it at that. Just thought of as growing old.


 I fully agree to a point. If a dog comes up somewhat lame at 10 on up, I figure it is age. When they are diagnosed at 2 with bad hips, if it were always there as you say, David, it seems strange that all of a sudden it became a hot topic. Diagnosed or not, anyone can see if a two year old dog can't get up or run.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Do carbs effect rate of growth? Are more carbs fed now than there used to be? Just wondering if that has an effect.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Can't say for sure David but protien does. I bred for a number of years and never had a problem with pano. Out of the blue, I had 20 some pups gimping around the yard and some could hardly walk. First off, my dogs grew fast and are well above the breed standard for height. I had started feeding a high end puppy chow. It took a while to figure it out because I breed very close and my first thoughts always go to that. Once I relaxed and looked back over what was different in the precedeing year, I came up with the puppy chow(this was before they had large breed puppy chows and this type of occurrence may be why they came out with it) I quit feeding the puppy chow and have never had another problem. I say it is the protien but it could be something else in the food. Protien was the most noticeable difference I saw. The pano dissapeared as fast as it started yet there are still a lot of debates about what causes it. High protiens just make the dogs grow, in height, way to fast. This is not the same as being overweight.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If it is not genetic, we would expect to see two breeds of very similar size, bred for relatively the same purpose, relatively the same number of animals reported, and of relatively same size gene pool (say the Samoyed and the Siberian husky) and we would expect the percentage of dysplastic dogs reported to OFA (being the key here) be exactly the same in all cases. But the Samoyed has a dysplastic rate of about 11% with ~14K reports and the Siberian has a rate of 2% with ~15K reports. The Doberman/Rottweiler and Great Pyrenees/Newfoundland are other pairings similar in size and purpose, but different in percent of dysplastic dogs reported to OFA. Now, there are certainly folks who don't send the films to OFA or PennHip when they look like crap, so depending on the breed, the numbers are likely "optimistic," but regardless, similar size and type breeds don't always have similar percentages. Some do, but not all.

http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

I agree with all those experts I've talked to, including two veterinary nutritionists (one is president elect of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition) and a sports medicine/rehabilitiation specialist (president of the American Canine Sports Medicine Association) in that it's calories and not protein that is the key issue. Not sure how many functionally dysplastic wolves, coyotes, or feral dogs there are running around (I imagine not a ton), but the pups eat a very protein protein rich food regurgitated from their parents and packmates when they going from milk to solid foods. Plus pano seems to have a breed predilection for GSDs.

My vote is for multifactorial: environmenal and genetics at work.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would think that in the early days a dog that showed physical weakness of any kind was culled. Selection was more for function then form.
Were there less cases of HD or did we just know a lot less about it. 
One or two often bred dogs in a particular line/breed could very easily plant the seed for generations to come.
A given dog can also be horribly dysplastic and never show signs of it. Now cross this dog with a dog that show problems (like it's never beed done) and your start connecting the dots. To many of these pups are then bred because the're cute, great "looking" show dogs, any number of reasons.
Just a thought cause I have no clue! :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If it is not genetic, we would expect to see two breeds of very similar size, bred for relatively the same purpose, relatively the same number of animals reported, and of relatively same size gene pool (say the Samoyed and the Siberian husky) and we would expect the percentage of dysplastic dogs reported to OFA (being the key here) be exactly the same in all cases. But the Samoyed has a dysplastic rate of about 11% with ~14K reports and the Siberian has a rate of 2% with ~15K reports. The Doberman/Rottweiler and Great Pyrenees/Newfoundland are other pairings similar in size and purpose, but different in percent of dysplastic dogs reported to OFA. Now, there are certainly folks who don't send the films to OFA or PennHip when they look like crap, so depending on the breed, the numbers are likely "optimistic," but regardless, similar size and type breeds don't always have similar percentages. Some do, but not all.


Seems pretty simple to me Maron....not all breeders of working dogs keep them in the house.

http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

{quote]I agree with all those experts I've talked to, including two veterinary nutritionists (one is president elect of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition) and a sports medicine/rehabilitiation specialist (president of the American Canine Sports Medicine Association) in that it's calories and not protein that is the key issue. Not sure how many functionally dysplastic wolves, coyotes, or feral dogs there are running around (I imagine not a ton), but the pups eat a very protein protein rich food regurgitated from their parents and packmates when they going from milk to solid foods. Plus pano seems to have a breed predilection for GSDs.[/quote]

I think you are mixing two posts together. I posted on pano and protien also but it has nothing to do with HD. Also, pano may have a prediliction for GSD's so explain why I had 20 plus pups with pano at the same time because I went to a protien rich diet. 

My vote is for multifactorial: environmenal and genetics at work. [/QUOTE]


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I would think that in the early days a dog that showed physical weakness of any kind was culled. Selection was more for function then form.
> Were there less cases of HD or did we just know a lot less about it.
> One or two often bred dogs in a particular line/breed could very easily plant the seed for generations to come.
> A given dog can also be horribly dysplastic and never show signs of it. Now cross this dog with a dog that show problems (like it's never beed done) and your start connecting the dots. To many of these pups are then bred because the're cute, great "looking" show dogs, any number of reasons.
> Just a thought cause I have no clue! :wink:


Bob, your assuming that our predecesirs could not tell when a dog could not get up at 2 years old. I find that hard to believe. I knokw you are familiar with hindsight. Many things are can be better understtod with hindsight than they can be in the present form. When one looks back at HD, it is easier to understand. Go back and read what I said about genetics. It makes no sense that it is genetic, but, unexplained things were put off on the unknown. Yes, dogs were culled but, with no record there was ever a problem....then suddenly the problem was recognized? I find that hard to swallow.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"My vote is for multifactorial: environmenal and genetics at work."_

I don't disagree with that statement, but then wonder, if the contributing genes involving HD were purged from a breed's respective genepool, could the environmental factors solely constitute the condition, if lacking a genetic predisposition? Seems to me, that a hereditary approach makes the most sense. In the same way, obesity (considered a multifactoral trait) is a condition that doesn't affect all people the same, whether they share the same eating habits or exercise regimen. There seems to be hereditary prerequisites that precede any relevance to the environmental expression in the phenotype.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

The "problem" is perhaps in the diagnosis.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don, I didn't say they "couldn't" see a problem. What I was suggesting is that when or if a problem came up, that dog was taken out of the breeding picture, at the least. At best it was taken out of the picture all together. If it didn't or couldn't work, whatever the reason, I doubt it wasintentially bred to. 
That doesn't happen as often as it should today. 
Again just a thougth because the reasons/causes for HD are still not completely understood. Lots of theory and conjecture but no actual proof. 
My own "beliefs" are that it can be nature, nuture or a combination of both. 
I've never expieriencd HD in any dog I've owned till now. Then again, I've only had one other dog x-rayed. Thunder is "mildly" displastic. He shows absolutely no signs of it. Without x-rays, I would have no problems breeding to him for nothing more then I'd love a pup out of him. He's frickin fantastic. 
Before xrays came about I have no doubt he would be bred to. How much of his HD would have then been passed on and to what effect? Who knows!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Take a chance then Bob. breed him and makes sure how he is raised simulates the natural conditions. My money says the pups will be fine.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: Now, there are certainly folks who don't send the films to OFA or PennHip when they look like crap, so depending on the breed, the numbers are likely "optimistic," but regardless, similar size and type breeds don't always have similar percentages. 

All pennhip is sent in.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Bob, Don is right there. Excluding a dog from the gene pool for mild dysplasia is foolish if the dogs positives out weigh the ONE negative.

When I look back on some of the dogs that I did not breed to because of the lack of info on stupid stupid hip dysplasia, I do regret taking them out of the gene pool. Back then, I wouldn't breed to littermates either desperately trying to do the right thing.

Years later after breeding excellent to excellent, and still getting a percentage part of the time, I started to just breed the dogs regardless. The numbers didn't change.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Secondly, genetics works in pairs with an anomoly being the club foot. Even with the thalydimide babies, if there was a hand on one elbo, it was on both. Peoples ears are generally the same height as are eyes. Legs and arms are very close. Genetics works in pairs as a general rule. If one hip was gentically bad....they should both be bad or to say the least.....very close. The genetic theory does not wash nor will they ever solve it looking in that hole.


 
Although genetics may work in pairs as a general rule, there are plenty of examples where it doesn't. Teeth for example, the inheritance of which is also thought to be polygenic, at least for some of the teeth (some research I've read indicates they think each tooth P1, P2, etc is inherited differently). I've seen plenty of dogs missing a tooth on one side and not on the other, i.e. missing the lower left P2 but has the lower right P2. Dewclaws are another, I've seen many pups with a single rear dewclaw on one back leg, but not the other. Or 2 on one leg, and only 1 on the other. Only seen this a few times, but I have seen 2 on one back leg, and none on the other. Eye color is another, with some dogs having 1 blue and 1 brown eye, or one eye that is split (2 colors) and 1 eye that is a single color. 

I've only had 1 dog that was diagnosed with HD, and it was only diagnosed in 1 hip. But the other hip was only a fair. I've had lots of x-rays taken over the years, and sometimes the hips are exactly the same, but sometimes there is a variation between the two, ie one might be good while another looks excellent. Or one looks fair and the other looks good. So it doesn't surprise me that 1 hip might be dysplastic while the other isn't. What would surprise me, and make me think that specific dog's issues were more environmental then genetic, would be if one hip was severely dysplastic while the other hip looked excellent. That might be worth asking OFA about, if they keep those types of stats. I know at one time I read that they were finding in dogs with only HD in one hip, that it tended to be the left hip, but I don't know if that's true anymore. People are not perfectly symmetrical, if you look at a person's face their eyes aren't spaced EXACTLY the same, or their nose might not be perfectly centered, etc. There have been lots of studies done on this, because the more symmetrical a person's face is, the more attractive we find that person. So it doesn't surprise me that there are minor variations in joints also, and that it's genetic.

All that said, I do believe that HD is genetic with environmental factors LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Not agreeing is OK Kadi. This was just "my" opinion of HD. You named many examples od things that did not show in pairs. That is why it is stated that it is " the general rule". It is not an absolute. Most of the things you named are also less than common unless it is within a breed or line. Having different hip ratings on the same dog is pretty normal. Also, if it is genetic, it has always been there....just didn't get noticed until the 30's? Seems to me that it would be hard to miss young dogs that can't get around in any era. Also, I am not saying there are not bad hips as there obviously is....I simply question the "why they are bad." I tend to think it is post natal trauma rather than genetic. Why is it recommended that babies not be left on their back all the time? It flattens the back of the skull. The skull os a spherical object that has a lot more strength than a hip socket. Why is it beyond belief that the socket can be spread on a hard flat surface with a litter of other siblings piled on a particular pup? It would also explain the different ratings on the same dog. Big breeds are more suseptible maybe because big breed pups weigh more and are harder on the ones on the bottom. I am simp[ly speculating because my dogs seem to fit most of what HD has been blamed on over years. They are inbred, they are free fed from the time they can eat and are porkers. Hounds have a very low incidence of HD. It is speculated that it is because they are culled if they can't cut the mustard. Maybe it is because they are raised outside because I have never met a houndsman that has the pups in the house. Same may go for greyhounds but I don't know how they are raised.....nor the sled dogs for that matter. It would be an interesting study to see how high the incidence of HD is with dogs raised inside vs outdoors.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don and Jeff
IF I knew I had control over all the pups throughtout their lives I would do it. As it is my lifestyle (space, money) wouldn't allow me to hold on to pups.
Unfortunately, my need/desire for that kind of control is probably one of the big reasons I'm not a breeder. :lol:


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## Nancy Rhynard (Nov 24, 2008)

Ok, I'm new here and still trying to figure out the layout. 

My education is animal nutrition and the quote from AVMA nutritionists is darn good. Multifactoral being envoronment, nutriton and genetics. Back in the 50's Cornell University did a study giving dogs too much calcium and created HD. Environment can play a role too. One has to use some common sense and it sounds like it comes out well with this group. I don't want to go into dog foods because there really is a lot of opinion still and some things do work better for some breeds than others. Why can my Jack Russel Terrier eat anything and never get diarrhea? Well, we won't go there. I am convinced that all good hips do not necessarily produce all good hips and that a mediocre hip may produce very well. We do need to remove the bad ones from the genetic pool though especially if you know decent food and envirnoment was in place and so the bad hip is genetic. Sound structure must also play a role. I do believe HD has always been around .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Unfortunately, my need/desire for that kind of control is probably one of the big reasons I'm not a breeder.


That's a joke right Bob? You work your dogs in protection. No control there is there? LMAO


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Since Nancy mentioned the AVMA, you all are aware that the AVMA is adopting the policy of no cosmetic surgeries don't you? No docking cropping or dew claw removal....for the good of the animal.....but they still push early spay and neuter. Think about that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That's a joke right Bob? You work your dogs in protection. No control there is there? LMAO


 
:lol: :lol: Let me rephrase that!
Control over some of the folks that might wind up with a pup. Control over my dogs has never been an issue! :grin: :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Since Nancy mentioned the AVMA, you all are aware that the AVMA is adopting the policy of no cosmetic surgeries don't you? No docking cropping or dew claw removal....for the good of the animal.....but they still push early spay and neuter. Think about that.


 
That's always been a point of contention for me. 
Cut a dogs nuts off but don't hurt his ears. You might stress his poor little mind. :roll:
Hey, given the choice I can still hear if my ears are shortened a bit. :-o


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> That's always been a point of contention for me.
> Cut a dogs nuts off but don't hurt his ears. You might stress his poor little mind. :roll:
> Hey, given the choice I can still hear if my ears are shortened a bit. :-o



Hey! Neutered dogs can (and some do!) still participate in 'the act,' they just can't make puppies! 




Disclaimer: The above comment has nothing to do with prior posts referring to the AVMA - it's simply a tongue-in-cheek remark to Bob's quote.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Nancy's reference to nutrition might play a major part. I don't believe that historically, HD was as prevalent as it is today, just as obesity was not.



> With rates of adult and childhood obesity increasing, authorities view it as a serious public health problem.[4] Between 1980-2000, obesity among adults has more than doubled; obesity among adolescents has tripled.[5]
> .............
> 
> Most researchers agree that a combination of excessive calorie consumption and a sedentary lifestyle are the primary causes of obesity.[47] In a minority of cases, increased food consumption can be attributed to genetic, medical, or psychiatric illness. Generally however the rising prevalence of obesity is attributed to the availability of an easily accessible and palatable diet,[48] car culture and mechanized manufacturing.[49][50] A 2006 review identifies ten other possible contributors to the recent increase of obesity: (1) insufficient sleep, (2) *endocrine disruptors—food substances that interfere with lipid metabolism*, (3) decreased variability in ambient temperature, (4) decreased rates of smoking as smoking suppresses appetite, (5) *increased use of medication that leads to weight gain,* (6) *increased distribution of ethnic and age groups that tend to be heavier,* (7) pregnancy at a later age, (8) intrauterine and intergenerational effects, (9) *positive natural selection of people with a higher BMI,* (10) *assortative mating, heavier people tending to form relationships with each other*.[51]
> ...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Since Nancy mentioned the AVMA, you all are aware that the AVMA is adopting the policy of no cosmetic surgeries don't you? No docking cropping or dew claw removal....for the good of the animal.....but they still push early spay and neuter. Think about that.


This is not true. They don't have a policy on it as in if you're a member of the AVMA (like 80% of vets are) then you are not allowed to crop or dock or you'll be kicked out of the AVMA. They have a position statement on it that they don't support it for cosmetic reasons. Fair enough, they're allowed to have their opinions and there will still be vets who crop and dock until it becomes illegal (which is not unlikely in the future). It says nothing in their position statement about dewclaws, btw. I'm not a big fan of cropping in general, but I don't personally have an issue with docking or declaws if there is local anesthetic used.

They also do not "push" early spay and neuter, but recommend that individual vets use their best judgment. There's still plenty who don't spay/neuter until 6+ months. The AVMA really is quite moderate in a lot of their position statements. Too moderate, some would contend. *shrug*


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I didn't mean to upset you like that Maren. By the way, you seem to think 6 mo is not early spay/neuter if I read your post right. I consider iot way to early personally.

Here is what I saw

As many of you know, the AVMA published a statement this week changing their
position regarding tail docking, discouraging it and calling it a "cosmetic"
procedure. The AKC was not consulted in the creation of the new AVMA
position and disagrees with their stance. As a breed with docked tails, we
need to
band together to fight the AVMA and pressure them to change their new policy.

I am asking all of you to read the email below from Jeff Shaver, an attorney
and active member of the American Rottweiler Club, and contact your vets to
see if they will not support the AVMA's new position.

We must band together to fight this assault on our dogs.

Linda Hartheimer
Legislative Liaison Committee Chair
Weimaraner Club of America
http://grayhartweim araners.googlepa ges.com/



Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: [USARotts] AVMA response ...to maintain the right to dock

All ,

I have been emailing with the DPCA this evening . They , like Randi and I ,
have been discussing ideas . The first ,...is a call to all members to send
me a list of any of their vets who they talk to that will not support the AVMA
, who will allow their names to be used and /or will do behind the scenes
research to provide the data for a fromal written response to the AVMA ( they
may of course help write and or edit it ).Due to the requirements of the AVMA
for empirical data to dispute their new decision and change their mind , this
type of help is a must . The DPCA is going to do the same . Other clubs are
being invited as well of course .We all need the help of every member to
gather these names and get them to me privately as soon as possible . Please
take
a copy of the AVMA guidelines to you vets and ask them their opinion and if
they are willing to help ....real hands on help . This is a chance for them
to repay our loyalty for their services we
pay for over the years . If they have a question they may call me directly
(713 557 0807) or email at my work email [email protected] law.com . If
your vets can put you in contact with the State agency representative on these
type issues , they are welcome to contact me as well . Please send me this
contact information and I will follow up .

The next step suggested , and I agree , is to create a list of supporters
(clubs and groups) who can link for immediate PR and media releases . I will
also call on all members with experience in this area to send me their names
and volunteer to help create points of discussion and proper media releases
for this purpose .These people will work in conjunction with others from other
dock /crop breed clubs and , hopefully , AKC .

Just the first steps ,

Jeff Shaver


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I didn't mean to upset you like that Maren. By the way, you seem to think 6 mo is not early spay/neuter if I read your post right. I consider iot way to early personally.


I wasn't upset, but thanks for caring. Six months is not considered early by the AVMA and for the average pet, I wouldn't consider it too early either. Waaaaaaaay more dogs get put to sleep directly or indirectly because of over population than get any of the few diseases like osteosarcoma or hemangiosarcoma that might be linked to pediatric gonadectomy. If people have working or performance dogs or giant breeds and they'd like to leave them intact until 9-18 months when the growth plates close (depending on the breed) and they are *gasp* responsible with their animal, that's fine too.

Forgot to add...here's the AVMA's official wording on their policy statements as I know e-mails that get circulated sometimes tend to end up not being entirely accurate...

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/policies.asp


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

So, they may not have a policy as you say Marem. But, the policy they don't have was revised as of 11-20-08. I assume before that they were what....neutral. I would think some might be interested in this change of heart. Let's call it a window into the future. Nothing has to be legislated any more. Go to the source and get them to not approve it. I like that.
Back to HD....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote from site: Ear Cropping and Tail Docking of Dogs
(Oversight: AWC; HOD 07/1999, EB revised 11/2008)

The AVMA opposes ear cropping and tail docking of dogs when done solely for cosmetic purposes. The AVMA encourages the elimination of ear cropping and tail docking from breed standards.

So how do we tell these people to go **** themselves??? I had Rotts, and I docked the tails myself, but I wouldn't use a vet that had emotional issues like that.

A friend of mine went to put his old GSD to sleep, and the vet told him that the clinic would do it, but they charged 250 dollars.

Not only is that nuts, it drove my buddy to go out in the woods and shoot the dog, as the dog was in misery. He was 15 and couldn't walk without support. 

He botched the job, and has vowed never to get another dog.

I have more stories like this, where vets charged some absolutely rediculous rate.

On one occasion, a friend of mine working at an emergency clinic had a young guy come in and his dog had ran out the front door and was hit by a car. It was in the teens and slick, so the guy had no chance of stopping the car. They wanted 1500 dollars to see the dog. 1500 up front. The guy asked if he could make payments and they said no.

He left the dog tied to a tree out in front of the clinic, and my friend found the frozen dog in the morning when she got off work.

So much for the welfare of animals. I know of plenty of successful vets who never turned anyone down like those heartless pieces of shit.

I could go on forever, but I won't. Got plenty more stories though. : )


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A friend of mine went to put his old GSD to sleep, and the vet told him that the clinic would do it, but they charged 250 dollars. .... I have more stories like this, where vets charged some absolutely rediculous rate. .... So much for the welfare of animals. I know of plenty of successful vets who never turned anyone down like those heartless pieces of shit.



Yes. Like any profession, it has bad and good. And when the welfare of other beings and money are both at stake, bad can be very very bad.

Thank goodness the bad are way outnumbered (at least, in my experience). But they are (and rightfully) high profile.




Back to the thread about H.D. ......


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes. Like any profession, it has bad and good. And when the welfare of other beings and money are both at stake, bad can be very very bad.
> 
> Thank goodness the bad are way outnumbered (at least, in my experience). But they are (and rightfully) high profile.
> 
> Back to the thread about H.D. ......


Oh no, no, no, Jeff and Don - you must be thinking of MDs - all the really smart money grubbers know it's MUCH easier to make $$$ hand-over-fist as an MD and you almost never get bit !!!!!!!!!!:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Now back to your scheduled program:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

There was a study in 2002 of the skeletal formations of 330 Portuguese Water Dogs, two years or older. These measurements were grouped into ten independent components which accounted for 75% of the skeletal variation. Of these, nine contained significant heritable components. The first four accounted for 61% of the variation of which about one-third (19%) was heritable with a 95% confidence interval. Although that single group accounted for the largest portion skeletal variation, its heritability was relatively low, _"indicating that environmental factors (nutrition, exercise, etc.) played an important role in determining the variation."_

http://www.ehretgsd.com/SkelQT.pdf

Also to consider, are regulatory genes that promote/inhibit growth. I think we can agree there is a vast morphological diversity to be found in the domestic dog, perhaps more than any other species. And also, that the HD conditions are far more prevalent in some breeds, moreso than others, which indicates _some heritable significance._

In this modern day era of domestic dogs, I'm also confident that a larger portion of "brand name" feeding of specialized food (canned & kibble) is far more common than had once been prior to any claimed HD crisis. Not saying HD doesn't affect dogs with an all-raw diet, just that factory made food could be seriously worse.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Since there are different severities of HD, does the genetic component play a bigger part or smaller part in the severity of the disease? Just a thought. Perhaps dogs have always had irregularities in their hips so that many dogs had HD but no symptoms. I would guess, too , that the x-ray technology may correlate to the increase in diagnoses earlier this century.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I would guess, too , that the x-ray technology may correlate to the increase in diagnoses earlier this century.


Yes!


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote from site: Ear Cropping and Tail Docking of Dogs
> (Oversight: AWC; HOD 07/1999, EB revised 11/2008)
> 
> 
> ...


On the reverse, I took my young Mal to get prelims done at a vet I've never used before but have always admired and even referred people to. While waiting in the waiting room, I heard wailing come from one of the exam rooms. Anyone who has ever had to put an animal down knows where that type of anguish comes from. As the clients exited the room, the vet said "by the way, we_ don't_ charge for euthanasias." 

Really not so surprising considering that she's a specialist who promotes clients doing the right thing with their animals, and leading by example.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, here's the thing, Jeff...people think that just because you work with animals in a medical setting, that somehow means you're going to give away a bunch of free or discounted services just because you love animals. The dental industry is still mostly cash because there are lots of folks (myself included) without dental insurance. Do we whine and cry to the dentists or the optometrists because they charge fairly for their services? Do we demand they discount prices because we don't have insurance or no emergency fund? 

Remember gang, having a pet is a privilege, not a right, and veterinary medicine (just like human medicine, dentistry, optometry, etc) is a business as much as it is about the medicine and the care. In an emergency setting, it is very common to ask for at least half the estimated cost of the medical plan up front. I believe we are obligated to stabilize the animal in an emergency, just as an emergency room is obligated to stabilize a patient in an emergency, even if they cannot pay. We are not obligated to treat beyond that if they cannot pay. 

Deadbeat clients are the reason many vets don't do payment plans anymore. I would like to have them for established, reliable clients. But in an emergency hospital situation where just anyone can show up with anything, I as the doctor and the practice owner am not going to get screwed out of a tremendous of payment that is due just by the virtue that my patients don't have their own credit cards. If people don't have the cash, they need either have 1) pet insurance 2) an emergency fund/savings account (my preferred method) or 3) don't have a pet. 

Speaking of stories, how many times have I heard vets tell stories of deadbeat clients who promise to pay when their dog is hit by a car or has an obstruction, skips out on the bill, and actually leaves the animal at the hospital (along with the several hundred to several thousand dollars worth of work) never to pick it up again to take responsibility? It's not All Creatures Great and Small anymore. It sucks and I think for as many negative experiences you may have had with vets asking for a certain price, there are at least ten times as many with charity funds in the hospital to help out special cases. We didn't get in this business to make several hundred grand a year or we'd be physicians. But when our debt is the same but our salary is less than half of even a family practice physician (sometimes even a third), veterinary medicine is the last place for money grubbing.

Now for me, if I had an excellent client with a well cared for dog, I maybe wouldn't charge for euthanasia either (keeping in mind that the time for the doctor and the tech all placing the catheter, giving the series of injections, as well as overhead and cost of supplies and euthanasia solution, etc all costs good money). But if some idiot comes in wanting it done because Fifi doesn't match the furniture, they are getting a full exam fee, if not a swift boot out the door.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: Well, here's the thing, Jeff...people think that just because you work with animals in a medical setting, that somehow means you're going to give away a bunch of free or discounted services just because you love animals

Sorry skippy, lets go back to what I was saying and not just make up some shit. I know enough vets that could give a **** about animals so don't even start.

How much would the vet be making, pure profit if they charged 250 bucks to put a dog down ??????

QUOTE: Remember gang, having a pet is a privilege, not a right,

Since when ? ? ? We warned you about the Kool-aid. Since when in a FREE country is a pet a priveledge ???? Are you gonna take away my priveledge if I am naughty???? No you are not. Try and remember that you are joining the ranks of retards that want to stab a bitch in the gut with a needle for a urinary tract infection.

QUOTE: Deadbeat clients are the reason many vets don't do payment plans anymore.

Yes, because GOD forbid you are out that 5 dollars for anethsesia and catgut LOL

I have watched way too many vets botching operations. The reason that they get away with it, is the high pain tolerance of animals. Maybe that is why they are dispensing "pain meds" with spays and neuters. As clumsy as most of you are, it is a crack up to watch you do surgery compared to a real surgeon. With the exception of one vet, not a one of you would be allowed to become a surgeon with the butterfingers I have seen.


QUOTE: Speaking of stories, how many times have I heard vets tell stories of deadbeat clients who promise to pay when their dog is hit by a car or has an obstruction, skips out on the bill, and actually leaves the animal at the hospital (along with the several hundred to several thousand dollars worth of work) never to pick it up again to take responsibility? It's not All Creatures Great and Small anymore. It sucks and I think for as many negative experiences you may have had with vets asking for a certain price, there are at least ten times as many with charity funds in the hospital to help out special cases. We didn't get in this business to make several hundred grand a year or we'd be physicians. But when our debt is the same but our salary is less than half of even a family practice physician (sometimes even a third), veterinary medicine is the last place for money grubbing.

OK, but how many of those vets were charging a reasonable fee????

When you discuss salary, then you should take into account the massive insurance fees, and rediculous expenses for drugs that MD's have to pay.

Lets face it, if you botch a surgery, the most they can get out of you is 250, as dogs are considered livestock. Not worth the lawyers fees. Let us start sueing you for what our dogs are actually are worth. That will wake you up pretty quick, after all, you think pets are a priveledge.

Maybe this might seem like a cheap shot, but how much did you have to pay for the dog that died under your care??????

I am absolutely sick to death of vets that think they deserve a ferrari payment, for yugo service. Last time Buko was at the vet, they charged me 60 bucks to listen to his heart for about 6 seconds. I cannot think of a single heart problem that can be found in 6 seconds. Then the retard vet tech stabbed him 8 times and couldn't figure how to hold his elbow so he couldn't pull away. 8 times. How much is that worth???? I should get a deduction right??? What if I was just Joe customer, and that freaked my dog out ????? Do I get to sue for BLATANT INCOMPETENCE ? ? ? of course not. It was even better when tardo the vet shows uop and it takes her two tries to get it out of that huge stinkin vein in his back leg. Great, let incompetence rule.

Buko has been jammed enough that if he turns his head the right way, his back legs shake. So the vet is telling me I have a nervy dog, I say why do you say that, and she says because his back legs are shaking. I turn his head, and it goes away. If I was Joe customer, I would expect my dogs legs to be shaking, I just had some incompetent stab my dog 8 times.

Always good to know you are being taken care of by the dumbest vet on the planet. Then you meet the next one, and it gets worse.](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 

At least they should charge a bit less until they can actually figure out how to do the job. I can't wait until you are done with vet school. I will drive to where ever and give you a shot at basic care. Charge me whatever you want, just don't suck. :grin: :grin:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bad (or even horrible experiences) with a professional just do not reflect on every individual in a profession ... ANY profession.

Is the HD discussion over?

Because this is an HD thread.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Since there are different severities of HD, does the genetic component play a bigger part or smaller part in the severity of the disease? Just a thought. Perhaps dogs have always had irregularities in their hips so that many dogs had HD but no symptoms. I would guess, too , that the x-ray technology may correlate to the increase in diagnoses earlier this century.


Interesting question. And it actually relates to the topic!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Shall we all agree there are some crappy vets and some really great vets? Personally, I have had the priveledge of dealing with incredible vets who have done great things as far the health of my dogs go. I have also fallen on hard times in the past, and because of my relationship with them and because of their kindness, every single one of them has come through and "floated" me until my situation improved. 

Regards to the topic, if it is possible that based on breed conformation, certain grades of hip dysplasia might not effect all breeds the same way, then maybe it is wrong to toss certain dogs out of the gene pool solely because of the hip grade? 

I wonder if the pendulum hasn't swung too far. It seems we have a knee jerk reaction, as far as tossing all dogs out of the breeding equation who's hips are not fair, good or excellent. Hell, I know a lot of people who will not consider getting a pup if the pedigree even has a "fair" or "fast-normal" in 5 generations. Even OFA says it's OK to breed "fairs". so what about other lesser grades? Is it really smart to not utilize the very best workers based on hips alone?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Since there are different severities of HD, does the genetic component play a bigger part or smaller part in the severity of the disease? Just a thought. Perhaps dogs have always had irregularities in their hips so that many dogs had HD but no symptoms. I would guess, too , that the x-ray technology may correlate to the increase in diagnoses earlier this century.


Bingo! I think genetics determines the quality of hips we, or dogs, are born with. That is the sum total I think genetics plays. The vast majority of dogs and people have average hips, not excellent, not poor. That is why they are considered, "the average". Average hips lasted until old age in the earlier days, provided there was no trauma. The number of dogs that have excellent hips is far less as is the number with poor hips. If the larger cross section historically made it through to old age with average hips before it was really noticeable that they were having trouble getting up and down, why do we see young dogs visibly showing these problems. What changed is what needs to be looked at IMO. What changed, also IMO, is it became popular to rear the pups in the house. Watching a young pup learning to walk on a slick floor is a telling thing when both back legs go straight out to the sides. The reaction shoud be, "Oh crap. there goes his hips" rather than They are so flexible and cute at this age.

Also, if a babies head is flattened from laying on a mattress, why is it so inconceivable that a hip is deformed on a hard, flat floor. That is IMO, why you see varying grades of hips on the same dog. They should actually rate the same.
By the way, who was it that first mentioned the AVMA. That is where the derailment started.:razz: :razz:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The number of dogs that have excellent hips is far less as is the number with poor hips. If the larger cross section historically made it through to old age with average hips before it was really noticeable that they were having trouble getting up and down, why do we see young dogs visibly showing these problems.


_The number of dogs that have excellent hips is far less as is the number with poor hips._

I'm curious. How do those percents fall? How much is "far less"?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't know Connie. I do know average is average because that is where the largest mass is. I would guess average would be inclusive of everythuing up to halfway to excellent and halfway to poor or something like that. You know above average but not excellent and so forth. The closer to excellence or total crap the numbers drop dramatically. Look at it this way. You can have fifty places in a contest but, there is still only one first place and one last place unless there is a tie.
The thung is considering most animals are in the average range as are most dogs, they have always gotten by to old age. We can exacerbate the problem by types of work that may be harder on the hips than othe types of work in people and dogs alike. If the middle range of hips always sufficed to old age prior to the 30's which once again, says it was always there, then an environment condition caused that change IMO. If it was a large scale problem, it would have been noticed as a problem long before it was. Likewise, if it is genetic, it has always been there. I seriously doubt there was a common mutation that hit virtually every pure breed across the board in what is a relatively short period of time.

What appear to be the problem, because of testing, everyone wants to see all excellents and it is impossible. The normal thing is to be average somewhere. Your looking for an environmental factor, IMO, that is causing the average to fail earlier.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The numbers of bad hips in Rotts were way skewed to the poor side when I was breeding in the 80's 90's.

With what the ofa received, the incedence of non passing hips was at 55% This does not take into account the people that went to get ofa x-rays and saw the obvious, or the people that had a dog that never was x-rayed as it was a cripple.

I am curious about how many of those pups were born inside in a brood box. I know I gave that silliness up as I liked the pups to be born outside.

It was much easier to housebreak a pup that had only been outside.

I am going to look and see if I can find what the numbers are for Rotts today.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here are the basics, looks like Rotts are doing much better. Too bad they are so useless anymore.

http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

In regards to Don mentioning that HD was getting more prevalent starting in the 50's, wasn't that when they reallyt started making Dog kibble, and the average pet owner had easy access to crappy pet food, a, and more animals were living indoors, in nice community developments, with not much excercise. The invention of all these supposedly neccesary vaccinations that dogs need, it all contributes IMO. What did a dog get to eat before there was kibble? probably table scraps, and if the dog was really worthy and was needed for an important job it would be fed more and better. I rescued a GSD that was crated her whole life until about 5 months, never excercised hardley ever fed. She had to be put down at 4 yrs due to crippling HD, arthritis, and cancer. I do not know what her pedigree was. But I believe if she had normal excercise and a good diet her early death could have been prevented or at least delayed until she was elderly. I think alot of HD is health and excercise related. Just like the health of young kids nowadays. Shitty diet and no excercise leads to poor health in all animals.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _The number of dogs that have excellent hips is far less as is the number with poor hips._
> 
> I'm curious. How do those percents fall? How much is "far less"?


This may give you a general idea as far as U.S. breeding goes. Of 444,451 progeny where both parents were OFA'd, 15% were Excellent, 66% Fair, 15% Good, and 4% Dysplastic. But then, it may be worse. How many with parents of NO rating, or progeny with no rating either?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'd say the heritability of dysplasia is certainly higher than the environmental and food influence but as I'm not anyone seriously knowledgeable about the malformation, I look after my pup, without cosseting it. No strenuous exercise but mostly letting him run free in the garden, or in the woods (by car) or carrying him there at 8-10 weeks or so. Stairs, ok but within reason. If the pup has no malfunctioned hips, I'm laughing - if he has slight HD, I'm not making it worse.

Food, a puppy food with sufficient energy for his needs that I usually replace with an adult programme after a few months.

Some breeders claim they have no HD in their lines and they can only do this to a certain degree if the *whole* litter is X-rayed over the years, which is very nearly the case with good working GSDs. 

Checking up on the pedigrees and looking to see how many of the progeny does sport or service. No guarantee, but a headstart. 

Here's a link that's interesting:

http://www.fecava.org/pub/index.php?&view=25


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