# out , when to correct



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

just a question on how the out, if you teach it with possitive, like hold and wait till the dog outs then let them get it again, and so on , ( ellis style is what i mean) then when do you start adding in corrections if they dont, lets say a high stimulas enviroment, 

why i ask , is my pup is now , 7 months, has a ok foundation in out, i wouldnt say i work it alot, but he outs 98% on a bite pillow . and tugs , on the first time

yesterday we went out to a dock diving event, as the day went on he got higher and higher and would out the bumper, We were at a possitive only kinda training place, so i didnt really want to correct him about it, but i was doing the stop and wait, but the bumper would give way a bit when he pulled, so i wasnnt really winning, which then made the behaviour stronger, 
i am wondering , if when practicing now, i should be giving him a correction for not outing on his first command, and what that correction is , collar yank or ? 
or just go back to training more, in more high distractions, or BOTH?


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Depends on what you want. If you want to stick to the positive, by your own admision you're not training enough so you'll need more repetition. 

With what happened on the dock, I wouldn't give an out command if you expect he's going to be reluctant about it and you don't want to correct him on the dock. I would hold him by the collar to keep him steady and hold the bumper with the other hand but don't pull on the bumper or create any tension. Don't correct on the collar, that's just to keep him steady and prevent him from running around and self rewarding with the toy. Then wait him out. When he finally starts to let go, don't rip the toy out, praise him and wait until he fully disengages and you can calmly take the toy away from him. Then immediately go back to play. 

If you want to start correcting, I would probably start off with a prong correction if he doesn't out after given the command, the level would totally depend on him, but if you think there is hope in doing it without corrections at this point then there's no reason to correct. Just more time is needed training the outs especially if the environment and drive level have changed. You can also bring 2 toys on the deck, out toy1, get toy 2, out toy2, get toy 1, do that a few times as part of your pre jump play then jump him when he's doing well.

You know your dog, adding corrections might bring more fight in him and cause you more problems. Giving him a better reason/reward to out under the stronger distractions is what I would try first, and practice it in that environment.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i think if i just stood there and waited, which i did, hand in collar, no toy moving , and without command, i would be there a while, he can almost fall asleep with a toy in his mouth ,, (plus i dont have that much time to wait it out ) other people would like a turn , lol 
BUT the 2 toys is a good idea, something i will try 
he has never been on a prong. I will be putting a bit more time into training it though..


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I recently saw a guy at a dock diving event with a pretty competitive bulldog get the bumper out of the dog's mouth with a breaking stick (behind the dock, not in front of the spectators), so... :-\" You're limited what you can do on the dock, but once you're off, it's a little different. :-$ That being said, are you practicing with a club? You can do the two toy method to get a faster out at practice.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

no i am not practicing with a club, i drove 4 hrs one way to jump off a dock ,lol, I paid for private lessons, so i could get some tips on better jumping skills.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> (plus i dont have that much time to wait it out ) other people would like a turn , lol


Ask if you can play this game at the bottom of the dock with him on leash while some one else is on the dock. If not, do it on the side lines right by the pool just outside of the fence, then do it by the gate leading to the dock, work your way around. When people are done, ask to go on the dock not to dive but just to work your outs on the dock. This is all just about the environment changing for him. If I ask my dog to sit in the middle of our living room she will do it right away, if we do the same thing in the middle of a busy park it might take her a bit longer. Susan Garret has an acronym for this type of stuff.. can't remember it.

Or better yet set up a similar scenario at home, all you need is one or two other friends with their dogs "dock diving" beside you. Then train with him to out with all that commotion happening around him, that's even better. You can pretty much try to copy the same level of excitement. Plus then you have all the time and no one is rushing you.


Edit: DASH! Desire, Accuracy, Speed and Habitat. Once the general behaviour is learned, you need to train it with the goal of more speed, and repeat success in different environments


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> (plus i dont have that much time to wait it out ) other people would like a turn , lol


Bless your heart for even thinking of this. Many newbies whose dogs have never ever tried it take 15+ minutes up on the dock during extremely valuable practice time in between waves at national level events, which is super irritating when you're just trying to get your own dog's stride set up and get them warmed up and wet. I'm all for helping the new folks as it's a pretty newcomer friendly sport, but there needs to be a time limit.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Tammy is the primary thing your teaching the out command for the thing they are diving after? (exuse my ignorance I know nothing about dock diving but i do about outing lol).


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Tammy is the primary thing your teaching the out command for the thing they are diving after? (exuse my ignorance I know nothing about dock diving but i do about outing lol).


The object is for the dog to dive as far or as high into the water as possible. That's accomplished by essentially luring the dog with the throw of a toy. The dog jumps into the pool after the toy and retrieves it out of the water. The actual out or retrieve are not really important other then you do want your dog to come back to you with the toy and give it to you. What's being scored is just the jump itself. 

During a practice, you will usually get to do a few runs off the dock while there's a line up of people behind you waiting their turn to practice. Hence the longer it takes you to get the toy back from the dog so you can throw it again, the more impatient the people behind you get


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

1. u should train with a bumper away from the dock until outing the bumper is solid; or use floating tugs 
2. u shouldn't care what other people around you may or may not like about your training; your dog doesn't care either  
3. dock time should not be "out training" time....it should only be to motivate the launch
4. switching and swapping items gives the wrong signal to the dog imo and doesn't focus directly on the behavior you are trying to teach, regardless of whether it "works"


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Marta Haus said:


> The object is for the dog to dive as far or as high into the water as possible. That's accomplished by essentially luring the dog with the throw of a toy. The dog jumps into the pool after the toy and retrieves it out of the water. The actual out or retrieve are not really important other then you do want your dog to come back to you with the toy and give it to you. What's being scored is just the jump itself.
> 
> During a practice, you will usually get to do a few runs off the dock while there's a line up of people behind you waiting their turn to practice. Hence the longer it takes you to get the toy back from the dog so you can throw it again, the more impatient the people behind you get


OHHHHH okay Marta I see said the blind man LOL. Thanks for that explanation I guess I am out of touch ughhh. Sounds interesting I couldnt for the life of me figure out where the "out" came in lol.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Tammy at about 7 months I started correcting for not outing. I was sure the dog knew what was expected in a variety of settings. For sure it was when she was extra amped that she felt like not listening, and I did not have the patience to work through that without some force.

You should have some time outside of comps to clean it up. You likely have the resources to recreate some of the "juiced" up mal that makes things more of an issue, without actually being dock diving at the beginning.

I started with a prong, and have given some reminders with the e-collar. If you are going ever use a prong, you might want to start getting the dog used to wearing one now. I know he is already familiar with the e-collar to some extent.

I never could make 2 toy work for me when she was young (I can do it now), she didn't let go of the first one. I never put a lot of work into 2 toy, but lots of people seem to have success with it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

when u use two items to teach an out, doesn't the dog still end up with something in its mouth ? so, the second item is ok to grip, but not the first, or do you quickly pull the second one b4 they get a grip on it too ? or do you just "show" the second one and not let them get a grip on it ?

- you are teaching the dog to RELEASE jaw pressure and DROP what is in it right ? 

- how does the "two item swap" get this message across ?? what is being communicated to the dog ?? how does the dog process this bribe in its simple mind ??
- to me it is just showing the dog something that you hope it might like as well as what it has in its mouth, but not giving it to them.....

if it doesn't work, i think they dog has still learned something from it.....
..... like, "you tricked me once and i ended up with nothing, and since it's better to have a bird in the hand, i think i'll just keep what i got, thank you  "

for a lot of dogs a treat would have the same result, but i've never heard that promoted as an aid to teaching the out 

not too related, but i had a couple with a 15month Czech gsd that used to latch on to body parts and not let go; ankles especially, so they often wore boots  ... they tried the cesar finger bite method with painful results  
....said they were told by a "trainer" to use peanut butter...just dab some on a forearm and the dog would immediately release and lick it up...they even carried a small amount around with them 
....said it worked like a charm ....if they were quick  
amazing


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick, you brought up a critical point in teaching the out with another toy.
"IF" it's done correctly it can be very effective but to many people can't figure out the difference between lure, bribe or reward. 
In one sense reward based training is no different then correction based training. You can't go on a competition field with either a reward OR a correction but the dog sure has to be convinced one or the other is at your beck and call.
Some folks never get that!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: just a question on how the out, if you teach it with possitive, like hold and wait till the dog outs then let them get it again, and so on , ( ellis style is what i mean)

I wonder what Ivan thinks when he reads this stuff. : )

Describe what you mean when you say he knows out 98% of the time. Is that out and reward, or is it out pause reward ? How long can he hold himself before he gets the reward again ? 

I have no problem with a correction, but it sounds like you are just doing this in front of you, and he only is going to give it to you in that situation.

Dock diving is dumb. Go do ring and quit ****ing about.


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## Detlef Berensmann (Jun 21, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> "IF" it's done correctly it can be very effective but to many people can't figure out the difference between lure, bribe or reward.


Hello Bob,
is it possible for you to explain the differences between lure, bribe and reward? At least from your point of view? This would be very nice of you. Thanks!


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Detlef Berensmann said:


> Hello Bob,
> is it possible for you to explain the differences between lure, bribe and reward? At least from your point of view? This would be very nice of you. Thanks!


A lure is dangling the carrot in front of a donkey. Please pretty please drop this and I'll give you this pretty shiny thing you want. A reward on the hand is some thing that only comes into the picture (although the dog may know it's there) once the dog has performed what you have asked him to do.

If you do the 2 toy thing correctly, you're not bribing the dog with the second toy, you're not dangling it in front of the dog saying if you let go of that one you can have this one. Think of the out as performing a behaviour and then being rewarded for it with a toy, be it a different toy. Same thing as when you ask a dog to sit and he sits and you let him bite a toy. Using the two toys takes some of the focus/possession off the object itself and makes the game more about the actual behaviours of bite/out (you can add a bite command too or teach the dog to engage the toy on movement alone). Plus it's handy to have a dog that will play with what ever toy you're holding that you want to play with (and this game helps with that) as opposed to just the toy the dog feels like playing with.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> when u use two items to teach an out, doesn't the dog still end up with something in its mouth ? so, the second item is ok to grip, but not the first,
> Yes, the object of out at first is to just let go of what is currently in your mouth, it doesn't mean let go and never put some thing in your mouth again. The dog is allowed to re-engage but based on your criteria, ie verbal or physical cue from you. When you first start teaching, the time gap between out and re-bite is very short, you gradually increase that.
> 
> or do you quickly pull the second one b4 they get a grip on it too ?
> ...


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

Jeff
>>>Describe what you mean when you say he knows out 98% of the time.
That on a bite pillow or tug ( which is all i have used so far, or ball on a rope) i ask him to out he does, sometimes it takes him a little longer than it should , 5-10 sec extra ,,

Is that out and reward, or is it out pause reward ?
Both 

>>Dock diving is dumb. Go do ring and quit ****ing about. 

Dock diving is fun, lol , I would love to get more into ring, but the closest person seems to be 4 hrs away from me , to help me 
I am trying to fool around in it , but its pretty hard to teach a sport on your own when you really dont know what you are doing at all , 
so far in total we have done 2 ring seminars, which i loved, but in total , i would say my dogs have only had a few hrs of real training with real decoys, not enough to have a clue what i am REALLY supposed to do , 

I Like to do a little of every sport too , so both do agility at this point, and my 1 yr old has done some dog sledding this past winter, , 

Send me up a decoy , and i'll be on ring sport like a fly on poo.. lol


How long can he hold himself before he gets the reward again ?
few min for sure ,


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Out of ten times, there is one time that he will not out for 5 to 10 seconds ?

Tell me how you play this game. You say out, and he outs immediately and then you right away say yes, and he is rewarded..... or do you make him wait ten seconds and then say yes, or you say out, and then down, and then reward ?? WHAT !

HA HA


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Detlef Berensmann said:


> Hello Bob,
> is it possible for you to explain the differences between lure, bribe and reward? At least from your point of view? This would be very nice of you. Thanks!



A lure is used to "lure" a dog into a particular position. It can be great for beginning a behavior the dog doesn't yet understand. It quickly becomes a bribe if not weaned off of correctly and promptly. 
A bribe is just that. It wont perform if the bribe isn't in plain site. 
A reward is the benefit of doing a behavior correctly even if the reward isn't in plain view. It doesn't even have to be in the handler/trainers possession if the dog was properly trained to truly believe that the reward is eminent if it gives the requested behavior.
When I train in the yard the tug (reward) is often on a table on the patio. The dog "Believes" it will get the reward if it offers the correct behavior. going through a whole ob routine is nothing more then chaining behaviors together before the reward is given. That's where marker training can be so successful. I can go through a series of behaviors (heel, sit, stand, stay, come, etc) with out the dog getting rewarded simply because they "believe" that the very next behavior is going to get a reward.
Think slot machine at a gambling casino. You stick a quarter in because you want the bells to go off. Random winning + random reward. You keep trying the slot machine or the dog keeps trying the behaviors. 
You are "lured" to the slot machine but the lights and bells. The occasional reward of the bells going off keeps you putting in more money because you "believe" that next pull on the handle will bring reward. 
The dog that knows a ton of parlor tricks or behaviors but doesn't perform without the reward in view is being "bribed".
I often disagree with people that say their dog "refuses" to perform a behavior that it "knows" if it doesn't see the reward or doesn't have it's e-collar on.
"I" believe that the dog simply hasn't been weaned off of the present/instant reward correctly and doesn't know how to perform without the bribe in view. It's truly never had to work for reward OR to avoid correction.
Same with a dog that won't perform without a pinch or e-collar on. The dog hasn't been weaned off the equiptment correctly.
I hope all my babble makes sense!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>Out of ten times, there is one time that he will not out for 5 to 10 seconds ?

Tell me how you play this game. You say out, and he outs immediately and then you right away say yes, and he is rewarded..... or do you make him wait ten seconds and then say yes, or you say out, and then down, and then reward ?? WHAT !

wow, getting all techincal on me, I am just playing with my dog , lol 

so his out he is not super clean always, he doesnt pop off immediatly on the word, but does let it go , sometimes it takes a sec or 2 , 
i DO always play this game with him in front of me, ( you asked that before) I am usually alone, so never have any help 
i hold the pillow, say attack , he bites, we play , i stop say Villain, ( which is his out command) he holds for a sec then lets go and downs, ( we are still working on the down) 
i think sometimes i say good sometimes yes sometimes nothing, i just expect him to do it , i dont get hung up on alot of the extra cues, the cue is i said Villain, means let go , down , 
i will reward immediatly sometimes, with a rebite, sometimes i make him wait a bit, he is ok for that, excited to get the tug but stays down and waits, 
and then sometimes i tell him done, and we quit, 
i played a bit of tug with him last night, and looks like the dock diving tug, made him regress a bit, 
i can try to get a video if this helps ?
i am open to advise, ( like i said its just me trying to learn stuff on my own) i dont want to do too much hard stuff, cuz i am not sure of myself.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Marta said;
" Plus it's handy to have a dog that will play with what ever toy you're holding that you want to play with (and this game helps with that) as opposed to just the toy the dog feels like playing with".

This can be HUGE for some dogs and is my preferred method of training. 
The dog that works for a ball has no more connection to you after the ball is tossed (unless it has a natural or well trained retrieve) It has it's reward and you are no longer a part of that reward.
I prefer that "I" am a part of that reward (game of tug). Then you become interactive in the reward as opposed to just a dispenser.
When the out is reward with another toy/bite etc then the dog has a positive reason to out. Your a part of the positive interaction and not just the source of correction and loosing the toy/bite/etc.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>Out of ten times, there is one time that he will not out for 5 to 10 seconds ?
> 
> Tell me how you play this game. You say out, and he outs immediately and then you right away say yes, and he is rewarded..... or do you make him wait ten seconds and then say yes, or you say out, and then down, and then reward ?? WHAT !
> 
> ...


Video would be great. 

I know it was harder for my dog to out of of some toys more than others. A plastic retrieving dummy was like crack to her at about that age as an example. Had big problems with balls on a rope for a while (after having great success with tugs). The biggest problem was teaching her to out balls with no rope, because she had really only ever learned to out into my hands if you know what I mean, and then I was asking her to drop something on the ground.

And her outing when playing with another person at that age....forget it. (it was way too exciting and they didn't know what they were doing)

Without corrections (I hear you saying you are hesitant to go there now), one thing that helped for me was to start the sessions with VERY short time on tug with some fast OUT rebite OUT and so on. If I started the session with too long of tugging, or too active of tugging, her possession was all ramped up and it was harder to get her to out.

As the session progressed, I could tug longer before outing, ask her to wait longer before rebiting, and to do things in between, but the fast reps off the bat seemed to help at the puppy stage.

When she was young, if I was using a toy that was more exiting, I would also expect less. Not that I would expect slow or crappy outs, I just mean I wouldn't play as hard with it, or as long with it, so we could be successful with our outs on a trickier toy and build from there.

I got a long ways with the positive out stuff, but eventually did use some corrections. It was pretty clear to her by then though and never diminished her drive to bite or want the toy. 

Not sure that any of this will be helpful, or that it is even the right way to go about it, but thought I would share anyways I am a novice mal handler too of course, also learning on my own. I was also afraid I would wreck her and make some fatal errors, but she seems okay....in that regard anyways LOL](*,)


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## Detlef Berensmann (Jun 21, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> I hope all my babble makes sense!


Hello Bob,
it does make absolutly sense, thanks a lot for the time you put in to write it down. I think somehow dog training includes all 3 different ways in order to teach behaviour with the right joy of work. The secret is to know how to use it and at what time. I do like the idea of the slot machine. I would like to know a bit more about it, maybe I can open up a different or new topic for that.
Thanks again for sharing those information!=D>


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

ok here is the video i took tonight, he is a little bit more sloppy then normal but i would say this is fairly accurate of what i have so far, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iIrxzsDpUM


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You have no feel for this yet, and I am not sure exactly how to explain...............but here goes and hope you get it.

The dog is showing different behaviors, probably as you have taught him, to win the pillow. Go back and count how many different ways he bit that pillow. 

When he pushed in and had his feet on you, you just stood there, and didn't reward him showing power........so, he was pulling, and that didn't work, so he was biting with his feet ON THE PILLOW, and THAT didn't work. : )

Pick a behavior that he wins the pillow. That is a reward. When he downs, BANG ! Then the reward comes. 

I know you were video taping, but do not be so static. If he pushes you, you move backwards, and reward him, as he is so powerful, there is no way that you can possibly keep that pillow. When he is pulling, (bullshit) then you can be static, run at him, SOMETHING, to try and get his mind off that shit, and back into pushing into you.

There is probably more, but I just went all ADD and now am off to go look at video from the finals.


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## Detlef Berensmann (Jun 21, 2011)

Hello Tammy, I do like to tell you my point of view, hope you do not mind. 
I think it is not a good time right now for you to train the out. I would rather train him to get more confident biting the pillow. I see a lot fight into your dog. During the bit work he is trying to pull or to push, but for what reason? So there is no presure going out or coming up from you but the dog is still fighting. This is not a good moment to teach him the out, because he will take that fight into the outphase and then also fight your command "out". 

I would start to teach him that a calm full grip is what brings the fight back to him. I would reinforce a calm full grip to make him realize that he is in charge. He has to learn that he only need to fight when pressure or stress kicks into the szene. For me the goal would be to have him realizing that he can controll the bite phase just by showing a nice calm grip, based on convedence. Then, if he is able to do that, it would be a perfect time to teach him the meaning of out. 

By the way, there is got to be a reason why he is showing this mixed behaviour between pulling and pushing, it is because he do not know better, here is a lot room left to think about WHY...!:-\"


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Detlef Berensmann said:


> By the way, there is got to be a reason why he is showing this mixed behaviour between pulling and pushing, it is because he do not know better, here is a lot room left to think about WHY...!:-\"


Agreed .. it is exactly as Jeff mentioned he is trying different things for him that has worked in the past to win the bite item. Some dogs will pull as that has made the helper off balance and then the helper is the one who shows weakness to the dog and the dog being creatures of opportunity <capitalize> on it. 

I've seen this a lot with strong dogs who want to win the sleeve but don't care about the man, for whatever reason. They will pull the helpers arm around back to strip him off the sleeve. Or at a trial with a new helper the dog will intimidate the young helper and make him into a rag doll, never out and drag the helper all over the field and get your team DQd. 

Which is why Tammy he should never be rewarded for going 'back' =D> It will come back to bite you in the ass whatever bite sport you end up competing in. You are laying the foundation for many things at his age and it is a lot more complex than just an 'out' 

A simple solution to keep him under your thumb and yourself staying in control of the bite item. When using the bite wedge tie a rope to the handle on the opposite side facing the dog that way when he outs and you re-engage him you can trick him into thinking he has won it, but in reality you can reel him back in to restart the process. In time you can wean him off the rope. Also it is important that you don't do a lot of this work yourself and wean yourself off being your dog's decoy as the pup gets older which is now. You want others to work him like this, your training partners should all be a decoy at one point. Just make sure the work is consistent at this age. Remember you are laying foundation here it is either 'good' or you are farking up your dog's future workability. There is only 2 ways this is going to end for him.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Well, looks like you won't be dock diving any time soon as the advice you are getting is not to work on the out LOL. 

I agree with the advice being given on letting the dog feel powerful, moving you backwards, trying to reward pushing and calmness and so on. I wish I had done more of it, known more about it, but my dog is rewarded for pulling with the avi dog reward anyways so their is some conflict.

I personally think you can not mess up your bitework AND work on the out if you know what you are doing. (unless you are doing sch maybe) I personally ignored everyone that told me I shouldn't teach the out from the word go. But....the people talking to you have more experience than I do and I am not competing in any bite sports, so my goals are a bit different. I just couldn't be choking my dog off the bite for 2 years before I was ready to teach the out. 

That said, I would lean more towards teaching the out stuff with a tug, and when I was using a bite pillow I would be more focused on grip and so on.

From looking at the vid from an "out" prospective vs bitework prospective, there are a couple of things I could suggest, but am not sure that is still your goal now.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

ok well really , i have no idea how to teach a calm grip , or a push or any of that stuff, and i know i am mixing him up , so i am just gonna stop playing any of this till i get some help ,that is why i havnt been doing much of it at all in the first place, ,, hoping to go see esa a few times this summer, he is the one who is closest 4 hrs one way from me, 
i dont want to mess him up really , and i know i am , i dont have enough training to do this shit on my own , I think he is a nice dog too and has good grips shoves everything far in his mouth , and usually pushes but ya i have been getting some pulling crap from him too latlely obvioulsy what i am doing is wrong, i cant really learn anything over internet i find, i am a visual person and have to see someone work him to know what we are all talking about, sorry to sound like a newbie, but i am, I can train this bugger in agility ., flyball ob, and dog sledding, for now, and play with ring when i have help , getting a bunch of people ( training helpers ) to help is not helping him i am sure, we are all retards up here , lol 
but i do need a out for real life stuff like playing ball and dock diving and just swimming, so i will work on that without a bit pillow or tugs,


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>I think it is not a good time right now for you to train the out.


on another note , the dog NEEDS TO OUT, not off a bite suit or bite pillow , but ya,, in real life i need this dog to let go of stuff, for games of ball , or swimming fun , or dock diving,, so i will just teach him how to do it my way , all my other 8 dogs, out,.... i am having issues with him cuz i am trying not to mess him up for ring, lol , but really i am just gonna get him to out, and deal with the rest later, if i mess him up for ring, well then i do , but i NEED a out on the dog, but i will work it away from the FR equipment for now.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

My feedback on the vid would be that you're not giving the dog any feedback. 

You walk up to him, release him and praise him, but that's all. The games goes on without praise, he's biting, you're silent, he outs, you're still silent.. you give the command to re-engage but no feedback after that no praise that he's doing a good job. No wonder he's not outing quickly, there's no reason for him to and when he does, there's no feedback that he did what you asked. He looks confused in his work, he's just tugging not really knowing what's expected of him, there aren't any real rules in the game, you're just tugging without criteria in mind regarding which particular behaviours you want to reward and he's not getting any feedback from you if he's doing the right thing if you're just ignoring him (due partially to the fact that you yourself don't know when he's doing the right thing). 

Half way through the vid you're finally praising him a little, but you're praising during a moment when he's munching on the pillow. 

Another thing regarding teaching the out, your body posture and positions don't change from your play mode to your out mode. The dog just hears the verbal cue to out while he gets no visual aids that the game has ended. Your arms and body are still hunched over and in game mode, and moving (partially from him tugging, but non the less), that's too advanced for him if he's still learning. You need to make a stark difference between active play, praise, get stupid crazy, then stop and freeze completely for at least 2 seconds before you ask him to out, although in his case I wouldn't even be adding the verbal cue yet until he starts to disengage automatically when you make it clear with physical cues that the game has ended. 

I'm writing this as I'm watching the vid.. at the end you got more lively and started to encourage and praise him, but again, no praise for outing when he did one of his best outs of the session.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sadly, dog training is an art form, not paint by numbers. The only way to learn is to make a mess.

Silly positive training has left an impression on way to many people that they can train a dog without a mess........ as first time handlers. Just not so.

Don't get discouraged, you are only an idiot and a wannabee here if you have posted video for 4-6 years, and the dogs are always coiled up as if beaten, and you make claims of being a service dog trainer.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

But seriously, find just one other person if you can, and make a go of this. The worst that can happen is you start a club, and it takes a long time to title dogs to ring 1. I was in that club in Colorado. : )


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

<<If you do the 2 toy thing correctly, you're not bribing the dog with the second toy, you're not dangling it in front of the dog saying if you let go of that one you can have this one. Think of the out as performing a behaviour and then being rewarded for it with a toy, be it a different toy. >>

am using this type of out/reward when exercising/swimming my dog in the pond. At first I had just one toy to throw and he would swim the length of the pond rather than come back to me (knew he'd have to give it up).

Soon as I got 2 toys and showed him the other one, as he was swimming back, he came straight to me. Comes up on shore and I time my "aus" just as he's about to drop the toy (he does tend to want to drop toy so he can shake water off himself, and also shows interest in dropping 1st toy to get 2nd toy). As soon as he drops, I immed REWARD by throwing other toy for him to fetch. He loves to jump in the pond and go for that toy.

We tried teaching out off a toy/sleeve at club the other night. The first method, holding toy still against leg (with dog's lower jaw clamped down beneath the toy) didn't work. Dog just held on like a pitbull. and pulled. That method works on pups but not dogs his age or his drives apparently. We would have been there all night. 

So then they tried pinch collar - both hard jerks, and then nagging type. He got frustrated and started looking for something other than the sleeve to BITE. ha ha. First time I have seen him be civil. It was like, what the heck is he doing? (he was going under and around the sleeve looking for something to bite since he was being corrected for being on the sleeve). 

So trainer said go back to switching toys for now. I think that helps "ingrain" the word out and eventually they put two and two together. (if I out this, I get another bite).

I have also seen the method where 2 decoys are used. once dog bites one, handler rushes over to other decoy, says out, here, and then dog comes running because he gets to bite THAT decoy. Then back to other and so on. It's switcheroo decoys w/ handler running back and forth. speeds up dog's outs and returns to handler.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> ok well really , i have no idea how to teach a calm grip , or a push or any of that stuff, and i know i am mixing him up , so i am just gonna stop playing any of this till i get some help ,that is why i havnt been doing much of it at all in the first place, ,, hoping to go see esa a few times this summer, he is the one who is closest 4 hrs one way from me,


Esa is back today let me know when you want to GTG there. Sooner better than later. I was talking to him 2 days ago and he is really excited with the pile of new techniques that he learned in his month in France working at Julien's club 16+ hours a day and wants to share them with us. 

As for teaching a calm grip if you are going to Belgian Ring or SchH, forget about it. "Full Calm Grip" is just a set of misused buzzwords for SchHers on the interwebs that really means nothing for the other bite sports. Like really, everyone sounds like a SchH Judge critque on the internet but will never explain what exactly they are talking about or the path to get there. Well maybe outside that it is genetic! (which still explains jack shit) LOL! So forget about those buzzwords and just work your dogs. 

Have a plan, execute it and if the dog throws you curve balls just adapt yourself to the situation. Keep returning to the basics that Kevin, Patrick, Esa, Myself and Fred showed you. I'll call you later for more explanation.


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## Detlef Berensmann (Jun 21, 2011)

Geoff Empey said:


> As for teaching a calm grip if you are going to Belgian Ring or SchH, forget about it. "Full Calm Grip" is just a set of misused buzzwords for SchHers on the interwebs that really means nothing for the other bite sports. Like really, everyone sounds like a SchH Judge critque on the internet but will never explain what exactly they are talking about or the path to get there.


Isn't it ture that ring sport people could learn from ipo schutzhund people, and ipo schutzhund people could learn from ring sport people? If we limit our source to gain knowledge just on one sport, we are going to limit the possibilities of dog training, I think. 

For me the full calm grip has one good reason, it would proof the dog feels fine and confident, he is not nerves and for a lot reason this makes learning a lot more easier for the dog. 

To explain the path to get a full calm grip is easy, but not what Tammy was asking for.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Detlef Berensmann said:


> Isn't it ture that ring sport people could learn from ipo schutzhund people, and ipo schutzhund people could learn from ring sport people? If we limit our source to gain knowledge just on one sport, we are going to limit the possibilities of dog training, I think.
> 
> For me the full calm grip has one good reason, it would proof the dog feels fine and confident, he is not nerves and for a lot reason this makes learning a lot more easier for the dog.
> 
> To explain the path to get a full calm grip is easy, but not what Tammy was asking for.


True that Tammy wasn't asking for it, she is working on a reliable 'out' with a dog that has lots of piss and vinegar. While trying to teach it without a lot of compulsion. It's hard to do that with a dog like hers, and own a brother. I've met the dog and helped work him so I have a good idea what the dog is doing to her. This dog drips confidence, wants to win and loves to bite .. So I feel her pain!  

My comment was not a dig at you or the sport of IPO Schutzhund. Many people use those words of "full calm grip" and "genetics" and throw it around the internet like confetti at a wedding. It does mean different things to different people. Tammy doesn't really need to understand this term at this point as she has bigger fish to fry with this pup. 

That being said, I do enjoy your sport when it is done properly and do take many IPO Schutzhund methods to train my own dogs. I do train with a very talented circle of people and friends who have done really amazing things in IPO Schutzhund at national and world levels. Yes you are right limiting our source to gain knowledge to just on one sport, we are going to limit the possibilities of dog training. I totally agree! 

Tammy just needs to step back and go back to the beginning with this dog and not keep trying new things. The more things she hears whether good or bad just confuses the issue. She needs to simplify it and just do the basics until she and the dog can go to the next step. It's not just the dog here that needs to progress, it is the trainer too.


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## Detlef Berensmann (Jun 21, 2011)

Geoff Empey said:


> Tammy just needs to step back and go back to the beginning with this dog and not keep trying new things. The more things she hears whether good or bad just confuses the issue. She needs to simplify it and just do the basics until she and the dog can go to the next step. It's not just the dog here that needs to progress, it is the trainer too.


Yes, ...... I see, that makes sense.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

choke him off of it. will build more drive for the toy!!! then youll never get it back lol


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

regarding the video :
my quick observations; read em and trash em if that's not what you want to work on at this point

great confident pup; but the dog is way ahead of you at this point which means u need a much more detailed plan in mind b4 u start a session

don't start your session in a corner....
don't go to the dog to start the session; have them come to you
don't use your dog's name for an out command
give him a down when u want him to down unless your out will always means out and down
don't twist the pillow and teach him to pull back and don't move into him when he pulls you
don't freeze when he outs (with no reward for his out); builds confusion and will make him "offer"
if you were also trying to also teach targeting, add more variety
don't freeze when he responds to any command; reward and move on to another one by having a better plan in mind
your "done" means nothing to him at this point. you were but he wasn't
if your focus is on outing use a rigid tug not a pillow


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