# Why with the feet?



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

I've seen some helpers do this, I have my guesses as to why, but I am not 100% sure. So I will ask:

Why is it that they take the stick and wipe the feet off of their bodies? To me it creates dogs that don't want to be in the front, or if they know it well.. look like pigeons with their legs tucked close to the body. I think it looks pretty stupid.

Why is it such a bad thing if a dog uses his entire body to fight? 
I've heard things like if the dog is not able to use his/her feet than they will maintain all bite pressure.
What does that have to do with it? I would think if they want to bite they will do it no matter where the feet are..

It this all a part of making the dog easier to drive? Also annoying...

Opinions?
TIA
Julie


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just one answer but some dogs will be harder to out once they've got their feet planted.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Stick cleaning a dog is part of making the esthetics of Sch. To me, taking that part of what a dog does away is one of the things that annoys me.

If a dog is just doing so to try and pull the sleeve off, it is one thing that tells me what the dog is doing. If the dog is wrapping his legs, that tells me something else.

So it is just trying to make the picture look the same.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Just one answer but some dogs will be harder to out once they've got their feet planted.


I like to give just a moment pause after the lock and let my dog fight get in one more yank or crank on the helper. Sometimes when working fake outs he will put his feet on the helper for leverage. If the helper tries to clean his feet with the stick after I out him he will retaliate and grab the stick or even a hand. 
Last week we worked with Greg Doud after some hard drives and some strong work he brushed him off a bit after I outed him he came up on him an put a hole in front of his nice new Gappay jacket.:-s
I have to remember to give a heads up them coats are expensive and punctured riped skin hurts.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've also seen dogs that will plant and tug. As soon as they feel weakness they will then push into the helper/decoy to try and throw them off ballance. I like a dog that can do this. IMHO he's trying to find a weakness in the helper/decoy.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

I like it when a dog uses his/her body to fight as well. I'm just still not sure why so many helpers have this need to take the stick and clean up the dog.

I think anytime you use the stick (as the decoy/helper) the dog SHOULD counter that, either by stronger guarding, biting, or getting pushy, It is after all a threat. 

That leads me into the direction of helper corrections too.. which is a whole other subject. Something I don't agree with as well \\/

Julie


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

It must be a sport thing. I don't care if the dog does a complete body hug, as long as he releases on command. Seems like every Mal we have has grip with the legs on a front bite. They don't do it when targeting the back shoulder.

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

It is a SchH thing. The judges don't want to see it and the helpers don't like it. Makes them work harder. At least this is what I've heard from more than one SchH person. Bentley in his prime was 105 pounds ( GSD ) helpers hated to work him, even today at almost 11 they don't like to work him. He had gotten smart and would push with his feet and then when he got the stick to the feet he would just go as dead weight. Hard to drive a dog doing that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I also get my ass chewed if I don't regulaly dremel Thunder's nails. He works his front paws like a cat.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

We all know that "pretty is as pretty does!" \\/ 

Feet wiping is another method to help keep the bite force on the sleeve and not use the body to push off from in the protection phase. When driving the dog in Schutzhund, dogs which make body contact or lock to the legs, are often harder to drive and also run the risk of having their feet stepped on. For PPD work I don't care, climb on top and enjoy the ride!


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

As Mike stated at our club we often will swipe the dogs feet so they don't use its legs on the helper as leverage for the out.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

This again is a sport Schutzhund thing and a dumb one at that. It reminds me when I use to coach high school wrestling and one of the kids said his coach didn't want them to use their legs. What?! Why take away another useful tool? The only reason for not having it in Schutzhund is for driving and stick hitting the dog. Too many decoys can't move or adjust if the dog is gripping at their legs. And I must admit, it is harder to work dogs with a K-9 tick on your body. :twisted: 

Maybe the F/M Ring guys will have to give up leg bites for the same reason! :mrgreen:


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Thanks for the replies. I must admit is is easier to drive a dog that does not use it's feet on you, but at the same time I find it annoying with I see this happening. 

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Tell them to quit doing it then. It is your dog after all.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Must be a Sch thang, never been done to my boy thankfully. His feet are all over the helper and that's fine with me. If it ever was done, I'd hope he would eat the stick but I know he wouldn't come off the bite for that. Just to be an ass, he'd probably put his feet right back up on the guy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I just would have a flat out fit. Who cares if precious the helper can't drive the dog well ???? Isn't that part of fighting the man????

I like a dog that bucks up.


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## Joe Torres (Dec 3, 2008)

First off, I have to say that I'm not a big fan of whipping a dog's feet. Schutzhund is not my sport of choice so I can't speak on that aspect. One of the biggest problems that i see with doing this is many new and even some older helpers see it done and use it in their training without bothering to ask why and use it improperly. I have seen a number of dogs getting whipped in the feet even when their feet are on the ground planted, to the point that the dog would tuck his feet, stand way outside the blind to bark or come into the blind and lay down to do a bark and hold to protect their feet. Not much help in the way of bite developement but very effective in building issues. Im sure that if used properly it may be very effective, but when, why and how much should be known before going willy nilly on some poor dog. Just my humble opinion though.

Joe


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: One of the biggest problems that i see with doing this is many new and even some older helpers see it done and use it in their training without bothering to ask why and use it improperly.

This is one of the reasons I go after Sch people. The just follow the leader blindly, so it is fun to pick apart their rediculous sport.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Tell them to quit doing it then. It is your dog after all.


Yes, yes I would Jeff. It doesn't happen to my dog. I see it happening to other dogs as they are being worked. There is a short list of 'do nots' when working my dog. Everyone is respectful of what I ask. 

Thanks
Julie


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

OK first, let's stop saying the judges in Schutzhund want to see this and it is a schutzhund thing..... I like it when the dog is fighting and using his body to try to stop the helper, that what he is suppose to do.

The reasons I have seen this done in the past are to hide a bad gripping behaviors in the dog, you can't chew when you are just hanging there. I think a lot of helpers (back in the day) saw this onm high scoring dogs and it became a thing.... If I had a dog in my club that was excellent in the other phases but was chewy on the grip then I would do this too, but if the dog is confident and firm in the grip during the fight and uses his body...no problem, I like it....


Frank


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## Willaim Somers (Jan 17, 2009)

So first off I have a Dobe who does this, and has pulled down a couple of guys doing it, funny stuff! I like to see it and so do the majority of judges I have seen. The sweeping of the feet is used in the hold and bark to keep the dogs feet off of the helper. This is a point deduction as the hold and bark is done with zero contact. Out side of the hold and bark its fair game. Mind you I trial with the DVG, but the IPO rules are the same, as for the judges I cant say


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

Its all about points!!! feet on the helper tends to lead to a late out and/or a chew here and there before the out, and on ocassion, during the drive, which obviously is a point deduction. If the dog is so sensitive that it does not want to stay in the front, then the stick to the feet might not be the best choice. To some,the stick to the feet creates more fight leading to late or no outs at all. 

If you don't care about the points and just want to trial your dog in club trials, who cares if he outs late and chews a bit. But if you are a serious competitior striving to make a world team, then you probably have a good powerful dog that can take the pressure from the handler of making him/her precise in all three phases. Those are the guys and gals that care about every single point.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

We love to see feet up on the helpers at our club, have never had it cause any outing problems in over 10 years of doing the sport. 

Perhaps some trial helpers don't like it as it makes it harder to drive the dogs, but that isn't my problem...:-\" 

Never had a judge say anything negative about it personally. But I like the overall picture a dog brings to a trial rather then it just being about the points.


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