# Teaching tracking without food



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

While at club training last week, it was mentioned that now we could probably start Jak on tracking and get more hot and heavy with his obedience as well. A few of the people there said they don't like to teach tracking with food, because it's hard to wean the dog off of tracking for food. I've never taught a dog to track, but thought I'd ask if anyone else on here teaches tracking without using food. How do you do it?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> While at club training last week, it was mentioned that now we could probably start Jak on tracking and get more hot and heavy with his obedience as well. A few of the people there said they don't like to teach tracking with food, because it's hard to wean the dog off of tracking for food. I've never taught a dog to track, but thought I'd ask if anyone else on here teaches tracking without using food. How do you do it?



Several ways to do this depending on the pup's ability but the most common would be the "handler Lost". You will be doing mantracking directly using manscent, the way it should be. The pup will be so used to human scent and will be attracted to it till it matures. You have to be with a helper known to the pup, and make sure you have a good working relationship with your pup, meaning he wants to be with you and follows you wherever you go. Have your helper restrain your pup while you walk away facing the wind. Call your pup's name as you go as if teasing him to follow. Try a distance of about 10 meters at first, then "hide" in a nearby tree or whatever. Then have the helper command your pup crisp and clear the search command. It's your option to instruct your helper to unleash the pup or have it track with a lead. 

If the pup finds you, praise him well, then do it again this time a little harder starting on that place where he found you. The 3rd time should be back to easy.

Allow the pup to be himself, using and developing what nature has equipped him with. He is at his best left unaltered. Tracking is where the dog reigns supreme. Learn from him.

Hope it helps and best regards...


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Good advice! I wonder if it'll work with a 10 month old, though!


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Good advice! I wonder if it'll work with a 10 month old, though!


It will work on just about any dog at any age.We used it with an adult Chihuahua and he tracked the first time for about 75 yards. :wink: 

Unless you want sport style tracking,Al's method is the way to go.This is exactly how I start tracking.

You dont have to teach a dog to track.In fact you dont have to teach a dog to track,bite or jump.You just have to communicate when you want him to do it.

Greg


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2006)

HAH! :twisted: BUSTED! You just admitted he tracked \/ !!!


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> HAH! :twisted: BUSTED! You just admitted he tracked \/ !!!


I was gambling you wouldnt see that post. :x 

Well I was trying to make a point.We never can be sure he used his nose though. :lol: I guess he could have  He is pretty short. 8) 

Greg


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Good advice! I wonder if it'll work with a 10 month old, though!


We've done this with Achilles since he was maybe 4 months old! I'd go outside with Michael and he'd hide somewhere and Achilles would track him. Michael's also done it without one of us on the other end of the leash.

Now for my disclaimer: Achilles has not tracked anything in nearly 5 months. I have no clue if he still can, or if this would work now LOL. He hahs done limited tracking with scent markers in the ground, and hasn't done that for a good 7 months. I feel like such a bad mom right now...

I'm interested in this topic, as well...


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Sport style tracking is what I'm going to have to teach him, since he's going to (hopefully!) compete in Schutzhund. That's basically what I was asking - is there a way to teach footstep tracking without using food, or is food the only way to do it?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Yes, this can be worked with older pups or dogs. I started a 2-year-old bitch and she's now one of our tracking dogs. But it cannot be comparable to one that started out as pup for the development is fast and very solid, as it all become second nature to the pup. With imagination, a handler can put up more challenges on himself and his pup/dog like working on bad terrain, steep inclines, cross a river while on the search or go track on inclement weather, thus incorporating agility with trackwork in real working conditions. It's hard work but the results will be no less than fabulous.

I'm sorry, Kristen. I don't think you can use this for Sports tracking. It's intended for real life work, no routines, no drills, no training aids.

Best regards...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Now for my disclaimer: Achilles has not tracked anything in nearly 5 months. I have no clue if he still can, or if this would work now LOL. He hahs done limited tracking with scent markers in the ground, and hasn't done that for a good 7 months. I feel like such a bad mom right now...
> 
> I'm interested in this topic, as well...



Hello Stacia, Your very own dog will answer your question. Try to see if your dog will lose what is suppose to be natural in him. Go hook up and track. In a few minutes, you have your answer.

Best regards...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

There are force methods of teaching sport tracking, but food tracking has been quite reliable for me, in addition to the fact that there is no pressure on the dog. The statements about food being to hard to wean off of are usually given by people that are just to unfamiliar with food training.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Agree with you totally Bob. I train using the chase and find method as I do not have the time when instructing a PD course to start off in footstep,I was fortunate enough to spend 3 tours in Germany and have observed beginning tracking to finished tracking off food and never saw a problem with handlers weaning their dog off of the food.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you use food, it is not hard to get them to the point where they eat at the end of the track, and eventually if needed, that can be switched really easy to a ball or toy. 

The dog is the one that will dictate the training. 

Food is annoying to try and get it in the stinkin track ( I am tall, and not easily contorted) but having to correct a dog for sprinting to find the toy sucks even worse. Stupid Sch.!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, seeing as Jak is EXTREMELY food motivated, I think using food would probably be easier for him and me, but just wondered a little about it since technically he's sniffing for the food and not the actual scent of the track, right?

Jeff, have you tried using a piece of PVC pipe to drop the food down through? Someone said that's what they do and it makes it much easier! :wink:


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

*Tracking*

I agree that for sport tracking food was much eaiser to train the FST style. Begining with a piece in each step and the bouns at the end. Then weaning the dog off after he was good on turns and corners. To no food on the track at all. The benifit of doing this way is the dog will less likely revert back to naturally air scenting when he looses the track. He also teaches a young dog to keep his nose down which becomes critical in locating articles for sport tracking.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> Agree with you totally Bob. I train using the chase and find method as I do not have the time when instructing a PD course to start off in footstep,I was fortunate enough to spend 3 tours in Germany and have observed beginning tracking to finished tracking off food and never saw a problem with handlers weaning their dog off of the food.



What is chase and find method, Phil? Wouldn't that be more appropriate for patrol dogs?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

What Bob said!!! For sport, you want a methodical tracker putting nose in each footstep. The best way to get this result is little teeny food bits (like hot dogs bits) in each footstep. It is not difficult at all to stop using food. The food on the track is not the reward. It's the ball, or the pile of food or the big praise, or whatever you use at the end of your track that is the reward.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

In my opinion, there are two basic factors that have to be considered when training tracking. First, what is your objective. In sport, FST is important. In police work, finding the person is the most important. Once your objective has been established, now it's time to pick a method. In my experience picking a method is determined by a couple of factors as well. One, of course, the dog. What works for one, may not work for another. Two, the experience of the trainer. The trainer is first going to use what has been most successfull for them in the past primarily because it's what the trainer feels most comfortable teaching. As a trainer, I've tried to learn as much as I could about all methods. I would hate to lose a good dog, just because I didn't feel comfortable about using a particular method of training. Besides, I think tracking is one of the most fun things you can do with your pants on.

DFrost


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey, for all my fellow "foooood" trackers? What do you like to use best? I started (years ago) with hot dogs, then switched to "roll over", but ended up going back to hot dogs (much cheaper). :lol: Who likes to use what?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

David Frost said:


> In my opinion, there are two basic factors that have to be considered when training tracking. First, what is your objective. In sport, FST is important. In police work, finding the person is the most important. Once your objective has been established, now it's time to pick a method. In my experience picking a method is determined by a couple of factors as well. One, of course, the dog. What works for one, may not work for another. Two, the experience of the trainer. The trainer is first going to use what has been most successfull for them in the past primarily because it's what the trainer feels most comfortable teaching. As a trainer, I've tried to learn as much as I could about all methods. I would hate to lose a good dog, just because I didn't feel comfortable about using a particular method of training. Besides, I think tracking is one of the most fun things you can do with your pants on.
> 
> DFrost



Hello David:

Took a quick look at your profile and found you're a police officer. Surely searches is a requirement and a real need in your kind of profession and I know you're aware of time being critical in searches. Surely you don't want your searches looking for criminals end up in airports or bus terminals. In rescue work where time is very critical, you probably want your dog to cut corners to drastically slash tracking time and distance as much as you can to get to the victim fast.

What kind of tracking method do you or most K9 police officers employ in meeting your objectives?

Just curious....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The type of search would depend the area, circumstances, elapsed time and other factors. Time is usually of the essence whether it's a lost alzheimers patient or a fleeing felon. Certainly the tactics would be different. You may start out on a track, but end it with airscent. The objective, as far as my line of work, find your quarry.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff, have you tried using a piece of PVC pipe to drop the food down through? Someone said that's what they do and it makes it much easier! e:

I was told this after I was disgusted with the not (SCH) to (sch) be (Sch) named (sCH) sport, and had (scH) vowed (ScH) never to do it again. Where were they then?????? Weasels. Probably hid it from me on purpose. :roll: :roll:


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> The type of search would depend the area, circumstances, elapsed time and other factors. Time is usually of the essence whether it's a lost alzheimers patient or a fleeing felon. Certainly the tactics would be different. You may start out on a track, but end it with airscent. The objective, as far as my line of work, find your quarry.
> 
> DFrost


This may be a dumb question,and Im not an expert,but why differentiate between airscent,tracking,trailing or whatever?Certainly you may use the dog differently as in on or off leash but to me separating the dogs natural ability into this or that just limits your thinking in which the only objective should be to find the quarry.
My dogs will airscent or track or trail or cut the track in half on the same excercise and still find the quarry.

Just an observation

Greg


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

I am beginning to have the same feeling too. Are dogs categorized as trailing or tracking with FST as a must? Is FST just intended for sports? Why would FST be used then if one wishes to catch a felon or rescue a victim knowing it's slow? Will an FST-trained dog still capable of "stabbing the air" for directions? 

I can motion the dog to look for articles and he'd do just that. How he does it is not my concern, that's his department. I trust his built-in ability he's world-famous and historically-famous for --- which I don't possess as a human --- and that's why I employ him. When he finds an object, I can motion him to look for its owner. Again, how he does it is not my concern. He's the authority. All I do is make sure I communicate well with him and we work it as a team. 

Of course, I'm no expert. The dog is, granted that it's a genetically-correct dog...

Really no offense meant. Just curious...


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

By the method I am referring to when starting off the quarry agitates quickly with a tug turns and runs a short distance and disapears. The K-9 waits a short period and then put on the track to find the bad guy. Once he locates him a quick game of tug is played. The game is then continued for about 5 more tracks. This goes on for a short period of time until he understands the game. Incidently and probably going to get some criticism I never start using a certain wind direction when training. The K-9 must figure it out himself how to locate the bad guy however the track is laid. Believe it or not I have only washed 2 dogs utilizing this method over the years, both dogs I believe though would have never made competent trackers utilizing any method.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've used the PVC pipe for tracking for about 12-15 yrs. I'm 6'2" and 60yrs old. Ain't no way I'm gonna bend for each step. :lol: 
These are how I describe the different styles. Some may have different terminology.
FST; Foot Step Tracking. This is strictly SPORT IMHO, but is still a good foundation for the rest. 
Trailing: more what a PSD would do. They utilize ANY scent available. Air, track, foliage. Usually used with a PLS (Point Last Seen). 
Air scent: as with tracking, airscent utalizes whatever is available but often doesn't have a PLS. Very common for wilderness and disaster (911, Oklahoma) work. 
I started out in SAR with the dog I have now. We started in airscent and,now that I've moved to Schutzhund, the FST work is a little harder. When Thunder looses a track, he would revert to his first training and sticks his head in the air. That's a no, no in sport tracking, but he's finially figured out the game is on the ground. 
HOt dogs are still the standby for FST.
Kirsten, Yes! Initially the are finding the food, not the person. It doesn't take long to put it together for most dogs. They are searching the disturbed grass, soil, etc as much as they are searching the human scent. With puppys or green dogs, if you start out with a 3x3ft scent pad stomped into the ground, then spread food ONLY within that scent pad, the dog will learn that food is available ONLY in the area of the scent pad. It will become obvious when the dog is figuring it out. He will stop sniffing when he hits the perimiter of the pad. When you see this happening, it's time to start laying tracks with food in EVERY track initially.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would also add that I now lay tracks with the wind at my back. I found that keeps my dog's head down. With his SAR/Airscent beginning, it was to much temptation for him to lift his head when he smelled food ahead. I will adjust this slowly as I see progression in his work.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> By the method I am referring to when starting off the quarry agitates quickly with a tug turns and runs a short distance and disapears. The K-9 waits a short period and then put on the track to find the bad guy. Once he locates him a quick game of tug is played. The game is then continued for about 5 more tracks. This goes on for a short period of time until he understands the game. Incidently and probably going to get some criticism I never start using a certain wind direction when training. The K-9 must figure it out himself how to locate the bad guy however the track is laid. Believe it or not I have only washed 2 dogs utilizing this method over the years, both dogs I believe though would have never made competent trackers utilizing any method.



Thanks for the explanation, Phil. 

Well, gotta take it easy with the little fellows. There's no agitation involved with pups (as with adults) but simply utilizing what's already in them, the following instinct or whatever its called. With adults or even with some good pups, no favored wind direction needed, just walk a mile as a tracklayer and the rest would be up to the handler. This exercise is merely an icebreaker to get the dog/pup started in trackwork. Once the dog/pup knows what is asked of him, then I put up more challenges and scenarios. 

I do grid and open searches with dogs worked this way. Of course these methods of trackwork are introduced during development with dogs that has the desire to work alongside its handler. The only thing I cannot work a dog with is to teach him how to track. That would be like me teaching a bird how to fly when I don't even have wings. I usually learn much from him.

Just my opinion...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<you may use the dog differently as in on or off leash but to me separating the dogs natural ability into this or that just limits your thinking in which the only objective should be to find the quarry.>>>

Actually, training the dog using his natural ability, whether it's trailing or air scenting doesn't seperate, but combines these behaviors. For example; We start a track from "point last seen", which is often the case in my line of work. The person fleeing is just trying to get away. The person running might well go in a relative straight line for a mile or so and then double back, either from being lost, losing sense of direction, or just trying to get away. We've been following the trail, but now the person is upwind from the dog. The dog, now very familiar with the scent of the person being hunted, picks the scent up, in the air. Now the choice is, follow the track or follow the airscent. In my line of work, I want the dog to follow the airscent. Since I can detect neither of the two, you now rely on the dogs training and follow the dog.

DFrost


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey Bob, I'm going to try the pvc pipe trick for my foot step tracking. I am getting too old, plus I have a bad back from a stupid car accident, so crouching down each step is really hard for me. Frankly, I come home everyday from tracking & have to lie down on one of those massage thingys for an hour to get the kinks out of my back! Could you pm me & tell me how long a piece of pipe you use & exactly how you do it? I thank you, Arkane thanks you, my back really thanks you!


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Hey Bob, I'm going to try the pvc pipe trick for my foot step tracking. I am getting too old, plus I have a bad back from a stupid car accident, so crouching down each step is really hard for me. Frankly, I come home everyday from tracking & have to lie down on one of those massage thingys for an hour to get the kinks out of my back! Could you pm me & tell me how long a piece of pipe you use & exactly how you do it? I thank you, Arkane thanks you, my back really thanks you!


Susan, you may have to use knee pads during trackwork so you don't need to bend. Just fall down on your knees easy and things may be easier.

I use one myself...

Hope it helps...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks for the advise, Jose, but I've already gone & bought a piece of pipe, tried it out & love it! It's perfect for popping bits right on each footstep! Kneepads??!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

But ya gotta get back up with the knee pads.   :wink:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

This reminds me of a lady who was in the Ventura California area back around 1994. She was breeding GSD/Malamute mixes on purpose!(even had a honkin big sign painted on her van about it). Anyway, she came out to our Sch club a couple of times. She had a rather interesting idea /method for training tracking. She literally scooted her rear end along the ground. That is how she made her tracks.   After that, we all kind of shyed away from her. It was sort of the last straw!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If I comment on that, one of the mods is gonna slap me upside the head.   
Only in California! :roll:  
Quote from the bible ( Well........maybe not  )
"On the 8th day, the earth tilted and everything loose fell into California"! :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ....Only in California! :roll:
> Quote from the bible ( Well........maybe not  )
> "On the 8th day, the earth tilted and everything loose fell into California"! :wink:


HEY! :evil: I'll have you know I DROVE here. :lol: :lol: 

ON PURPOSE!


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

David is correct which is why I don't bother with using traditional tracking theories or methods. If my teams want to truly find the bad guy they will resort to whatever method gets them there. I believe from the initial track give them their freedom to work it out and locate the guy. I train exclusively off line tracking once the K-9 is locating the quarry consistantly and the handler is reading his K-9 competently. I feel this method again gives the K-9 the freedom and the ability to naturally use his talents to locate the person(s) he is sent out to find. This is for LE purposes though not sport or competition.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

*Tracking*

Just out of curiosity for the Law Enforcement folk. What would you rate your individual success rate using the method each of you stated. Have you caught 20%, 50% or what? Just wondering!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Patrick, I agree with you. Teaching the nose down first and then after this is stuck in his mind you can go other ways. Patrick, your name sounds like I shoud know you. Do you or have you trained with Lewis Lundy?


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

No can't say that I have


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Patrick, that's really a difficult thing to answer. Not that we don't know how many we catch, but applying a per centage to that figure is not a fair evaluation. I say that because of the way canines are sometimes used, the amount of time a subject has for a head start, the availability of alternative transportation to the subject. There are many other factors that can play into a "success rate". For example, and it's a common complaint among dog handlers. Calling the dog is sometimes an afterthought. Numerous officers have already "muddied" up the area, by walking, running, chasing etc, etc, then someone decides, "hey, I know call the dog". I think you get my drift. Having said that, if we are on a good track, with a decent response time, in a not too contaminated area, before the subject can steal a car, catch a preplanned ride, in a rural area, we are right at 80%. See what I mean about the numbers being subjective.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David, something I've always wondered about. When you arive on the scene, how often do you have a scent article? How do you start the search without one? I've only trained with scent articles or random air scent. Even then, the air scent only works if there is nobody else in the search grid. 
I'm guessing this is another one of those factors?


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I do not keep count myself but have had pretty good sucess. As far as the method I use my teams can and do track with as deep a nose as any footstep tracker or those started down wind when the opportunity presents itself.
If I may answer your question Bob, I hardly if ever in my career have had a starting article. All my tracks start from either a last seen/known location or from the door of a vehicle. I also spend a lot of training with my teams having to locate a track in a general area.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Phil! I can understand the door of a vehicle. That's almost as good as an article in my books.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Thank's Guy's, not being in L.E. I was only trying to get a better understanding. I know in the last two weeks in my area there have been several cases when LE had to use their K9's and had no sucess in locating the guy. I know hard surface tracking is very difficult and that many things come into play. I guess maybe that was an unfair question.
Maybe I should have asked, out of the different types of training methods that have been disscused. Which one is best for you and how do you think it has increased your chance for a find? With all the different factors you mentioned coming into play.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree with Phil. Generally, when the dog arrives at the scene, the handler will do what we call, cut the track. The handler will cross the area the person was last seen, looking for the dog to pick the track up. The vehicle could be used as a starting point, depending on the number of people that have been on the area. The successful track though, seems to come from "cutting" it.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With "cutting the track" how does the dog know which track is the one to follow? I know that ideally it would be the only track out there, but in practical application, that seems like a seldom seen scenarion.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2006)

(J) Bob, I wondered this, too. But, even though my dogs were first-time trackers, they seemed to cut the track immediately and beeline toward me, although I'd made a bit of a zigzag. Caleb, especially, did this. He was released to track me and took off like he'd been shot out of a cannon. (Dumb experiement I wanted to do) He'd stick his head down, change direction slightly, then lift his head and continue on at a pretty good clip. He was going too fast, and it was very windy, but he only overshot me by about 4 ft, stopped abruptly, and turned around. I guess the wind carried my scent further and threw him off a little, but not much! I was really amazed that he made such a straight line to me for a total beginner. There were other tracks out there, for sure, yet he seemed to know which one to follow easily. I don't really question how they know; they just do :wink: .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob, I wish I had a better answer than; somehow they just do. Of course the handler inquires direction last seen etc, and tries to get to an area that is not contaminated. There have been occasions when the handler isn't sure (which in my experience causes more misses than the dog) and will take the dog to the car and start at the door. Generally speaking, this isn't required and somehow they just hit the right one. Horrible answer I know, and one of the mysteries of this fascinating spectrum of working dogs.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob, I wish I had a better answer than; somehow they just do. Of course the handler inquires direction last seen etc, and tries to get to an area that is not contaminated. There have been occasions when the handler isn't sure (which in my experience causes more misses than the dog) and will take the dog to the car and start at the door. Generally speaking, this isn't required and somehow they just hit the right one. Horrible answer I know, and one of the mysteries of this fascinating spectrum of working dogs.

DFrost


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I spend the majority of time tracking primarily on non vegetated surfaces. All training tracks will be mostly those surfaces. I go back to hot laid short vegetated tracks to keep their nose down, and once a year I pull all the teams off the street for a couple of days and we go back to doing nothing but vegetated wooded tracks with no distractions to get them back to tracking and I believe removing the stress of having to work the hard surfaces all year long. The dogs and handlers really seem to enjoy this time very much!
You always have a chance of picking up the wrong track but believe me when a good PD locates that enhanced (fear) scent while scanning,you can see the change and if on line, you can also feel the change.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Okay I can see how this would be a useful tool to teach. And I think it would be fairly simple if I had a scent article or an uncontaminated PLS. And the dog being used was proven in scent discrimination. But without those things how would I start trainimg it for use in SAR?[/quote]


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Phil, I think I have a slight advantage. Being State law enforcement, most of our calls are rural. City PD's practice much like you do. While we will through in hard surface tracks, the majority of our training is in a rural setting. Of course we cross roads, run up and down them etc, during a training scenario, the majority of the tracks we get as actual calls are mostly heavily vegatated.

DFrost


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Oh how I envy you!! It's like a dream come true when we get called out by the county or the troopers.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

having spent most of my tracking training in either AKC, SAR wilderness and disaster, the hard surface tracking absolutely amazes me. 
The "fear" scent does make sense.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob, it really does make sense. I'm glad Phil mentioned it, because obviously I didn't. They call my condition "sometimers". Sometimes I remember, sometimes I don't. It certainly does make a difference however.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Phil, it's on rare occasion we get to assit a large city. In one such instance, a fairly new handler, just happened to be close by to assist a larger city. The dog ran a good hot track about a quarter of a mile to an abandoned building. The dog took the handler directly to a basement door. The handler, excited with the chase, kicked the door open and up against the wall, with his hands raised was the suspect. The handler called the dog out, the subject was taken into custody. In debrief, I was pleased with the performance of the dog, but I took the handler aside and kind of explained to him how his tactics could well have resulted in a completely different ending to that scenario. I could see, as he realized what he had done, the color start to leave his face. Fortunately for all concerned, it turned out well and one heck of a learning experience. I also made a personal note, that I should be covering that situation with more emphasis. I'm just thankful we didn't have to pay to high of a "stupid" tax.

DFrost


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Do you guys ever do any aged tracks?

Greg


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Because over 90% of my tracks are in town I age my tracks no more than 30 minutes or more than 1 mile. Most of my training tracks resemble actual calls with an arrival time anywhere fro 5 to 10 minutes if lucky. So we practice mostly hot calls. On occasion though I allow the track to set up longer. When I pull my teams off the street for our 3 days of wooded grass only tracks they will set for at least 30 minutes though, I believe this helps in getting their nose deep down again as most of the lingering scent is gone and they mostly have nothing left but ground scent.
I am sure David and SAR handlers would age their tracks a lot longer than I do.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In SAR we often aged our tracks 3-4 hrs since we were often called in as an after thought, as David mentioned with his K9 work.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We do age some tracks. Three to four hours is often the case, we have gone as much as twentyfour. Most of our calls would be in the two to three hour range.

DFrost


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

24 hours, that is impressive :!:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Phil, remember, most of our tracks are rural, lots of vegatation. We've never done a 24 hour old hard surface track. So it's really not all that impressive.

DFrost


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Understand completely about the hard surfaces. My personal dog K-9(Jake) whom I have used to look for a few alzheimer patients has done a maximum 4 hour old training track a few times, but nothing that old.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

While my dog was just getting started in urban trailing before I retired her (hips) for anything but water work, I have laid a number of trails for a friend's 2 dogs.

24 hour rural trails seemed not to be a particularly big deal for any of our dogs - depending on the time set, a 24 hour old trail in the woods could be easier than a 2 hour one other than the dogs seemed to work with a more meticulous pace and deeper nose. In the urban setting we have not gotten past 2 hours yet.

We did not go much beyond 24 though in the woods. I really am unclear what a realistic upper limit is (other than those conditions where a particular team is reliable in training and would be highly dependant on conditions)

The movement of scent in the urban area is what I find most amazing. By observing her dog, we have seen pile up against curbs, captured in grass, the cars and trains do a number on the scent trail and it appears to be pulling it along with them as they travel. 

In my dog once I gather the scent went up the heated wall of the building against which my victim was standing and blow (prevailing breeze) into adjacent woods where it must have cooled and dropped. This is conjecture as the dog clearly lost scent when she rounded the buidling to the hot side and hit air scent in the adjacent wooded area and there was an apparent void between her and the victim. We were able to back and recover where she lost the ground scent but it was hard work for her.

Almost always when you cross in front of another road or driveway it seems scent in sucked in towards the builidng or down the road unless there is a prevailing wind. I wish we could *see* where the scent was actually going. There are only so many smoke bombs you can set off to hazard a guess.

I think urban trailing must be 10x harder than rural work and very fascinating. Would love to hear more about this type of trailing.


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