# Sensitive dogs.



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Here is a short vid. Th concept is testing sensitivity. 
I would appreciate your views on each dogs reaction if you would be so kind. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zp6gscbzZM


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Here is a short vid. Th concept is testing sensitivity.
> I would appreciate your views on each dogs reaction if you would be so kind.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zp6gscbzZM



They look ready to go to me Matt... I like what I see


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

cool, thanks Brian 

Here is the follow up test, this is their first real luring session

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFVPdvfNHD0&t=736s


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

nice !

i was looking at it as a two step process
1. initial reaction when approaching
2. reaction after being handled with both hands
was that the plan you had ?
are you looking for details or overall ranking ?

...i've been told i tend to overthink things //lol//

i also like that you tried to be consistent with each 
- same calls
- same body positioning
- starting at the same place
...yada yada 

haven't watched the follow up yet. 

would u agree the first vid is also step one in training the lure ?
show food in the hand, dog comes to hand and is rewarded ?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks Rick 
Yes all you say is correct.
I'm looking for details and ranking.
The food in the hand is to see which pups if any would push into my leg to get the food. Second vid has lure and my conclusion. I am looking for others opinions as I am useless with sensitive dogs and probably am also shit at recognizing them, which is probably why I am useless with them.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Thanks Rick
> Yes all you say is correct.
> I'm looking for details and ranking.
> The food in the hand is to see which pups if any would push into my leg to get the food. Second vid has lure and my conclusion. I am looking for others opinions as I am useless with sensitive dogs and probably am also shit at recognizing them, which is probably why I am useless with them.



Matt for what its worth...I probably worked with on the order of 40 ish puppies in 2016. At varying stages of development. I have to say that as time went along there were some in that group that remained consistent in temperament the entire time and then there were those that flattened out some dramatically. I saw it at various ages but the place I start to see it most is at the 4-7 months range. Not scientific by any means just observation and constantly trying to develop work arounds for that. I haven't been successful with that end so much in so far as preventing it environmentally. Something happens in the hard wiring as best I can tell ... maybe there are others who can give a more scientific reason. I had one pup from a litter that showed me his hand when he was like 1 week old and it stuck with him ... I kept him myself because I didnt like it. Im working with him now to try to overcome some of the symptoms of less than desirable nerve and just overly sensitive. I wish I had done a video log of this puppy. But I get busy and blow off the video thing to much Im old school and I always think of it AFTER lol


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks Brian. I vid everything for my own records more than anything else as I am very forgetful.
None of the pups are environmentally sensitive it's just one that appears to be handler pressure sensitive. It just so happens that this is the pup I want to keep for me. i will probs keep two others and train them. Probably the two black pups that have very bully temperaments in that respect. The fluffy female I think I am going to find very difficult to get the best out of, hopefully during the learning process (for me) I won't **** her up.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Thanks Brian. I vid everything for my own records more than anything else as I am very forgetful.
> None of the pups are environmentally sensitive it's just one that appears to be handler pressure sensitive. It just so happens that this is the pup I want to keep for me. i will probs keep two others and train them. Probably the two black pups that have very bully temperaments in that respect. The fluffy female I think I am going to find very difficult to get the best out of, hopefully during the learning process (for me) I won't **** her up.



my best advice for those you see that kind of weakness in is to go slow and start everything at a distance and work closer as you go along. I have never been able to eliminate it all together. I can get the dog to a level of proficiency but there will always be holes in the dogs work. BUT im just hard headed enough to keep forging ahead lol


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I don't actually see handler sensitivity as a weakness, just something I have to learn how to work with.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> I don't actually see handler sensitivity as a weakness, just something I have to learn how to work with.


Its not until the dog has to perform under pressure... game changer.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Sorry to seem a bit stupid but which pressure do you mean Brian, handler pressure or third party pressure? She is environmentally sound so I am assuming maybe wrongly you don't mean that.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Sorry to seem a bit stupid but which pressure do you mean Brian, handler pressure or third party pressure? She is environmentally sound so I am assuming maybe wrongly you don't mean that.


OH NO! Matt her environmental look really good to me from what I can see... just the handler part of it... if you are thinking she is sensitive that makes me think things like leash pressure is bothersome for her and the occasional accidental step on the toe resulting in a huge step back , or loss of cool resulting in breakdown ....ducking the head at the thought of a correction and all that kinda stuff. Maybe Im out in left field for what you were talking about,. It wouldnt be the first time...if I am just tell me to shut up LOL


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

No these are the things I would expect also tbh but she has had her toe stepped on already and that was fine so that's one hurdle over lol.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> No these are the things I would expect also tbh but she has had her toe stepped on already and that was fine so that's one hurdle over lol.



You have a good touch with them... they will do great under your tutelage !! I have had a couple that never forgave me for stepping on their toes during the learning process lol ... NEVER! Both females ,... im not saying Im just sayin LOL


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm afraid I don't have a good touch with sensitive dogs dude, I am struggling bad with this little bitch although I do have some help from someone who really does know what she is doing with sensitive dogs.

Here's another vid that really highlights the problem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3V3lEbI-Os


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> I'm afraid I don't have a good touch with sensitive dogs dude, I am struggling bad with this little bitch although I do have some help from someone who really does know what she is doing with sensitive dogs.
> 
> Here's another vid that really highlights the problem:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3V3lEbI-Os



which one in particular?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The last pup.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt, how exactly would you explain this pups problem or issues to be?

You asked me which black pup I mentioned elsewhere, there's one that struck me as bullish from early on. Does that help?

I also paused on what I believe you call black male, he seemed at least in this most recent video very scent oriented. As in he seems to notice everything. 

As for the last puppy I observed a few things about the pup so I am curious about how that might match up with what you respond with.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

The black one I mentioned, I believe is called Blue Male. This pup, for various reasons has been my favorite. Who knows why, I noticed him from the first video I saw of the litter and continue to like what I see of him.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> The black one I mentioned, I believe is called Blue Male. This pup, for various reasons has been my favorite. Who knows why, I noticed him from the first video I saw of the litter and continue to like what I see of him.



thats the same one I noted earlier on too ... (I think)


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I just cant see anything that would bother me ... maybe I am missing something? They still have a while yet until you will be able to see a whole lot. Man the bone in those males .. I still like the little black one


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "Here's another vid that really highlights the problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3V3lEbI-Os"

i didn't see handler sensitivity probs in the last pup tested

watched again and was looking for it specifically, and here is where i saw chances to show sensitivity issues, but in my opinion she handled them all quite well :
9:36 you're completely over her but no bad reaction
9:58 eagerly went in, no prob observed
11:55 eager to dig in again
12:40-43 chances to react but she didn’t
13:59 yet another chance but she didn't

i realize the vid was retrieving and not sensitivity testing
and realize these are snippets, but i was digging hard to see adverse sensitivity but just didn't see the problem in this clip

this test did seem to have less consistency (retrieve objects) compared to the sensitivity test i watched. was that the plan ?

curious ... do you intentionally change up the order of pups when you run a set of tests on them or just randomly select whoever is closest at hand, etc ?

overall you seem to have a lot of patience with all the pups and are trying not to play favourites. most people that i have worked with who have a problem with handler sensitivity come up WAY short in the patience category :-(

but since it's a problem i'd like to see more specifics if you have some spare time to spoon feed me some //lol//

otherwise carry on !! 
i'm DEFINITELY not a breeder but for me it would seem like the hardest part of breeding is finding qualified buyers as compared to raising and prepping the pups, and i think you are definitely keeping up your end of the bargain in that area


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

no need to jump on my Q's Matt
out the door for a Tokyo shoot for the next three days and there DEF won't be any 'dogs' involved


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> The black one I mentioned, I believe is called Blue Male. This pup, for various reasons has been my favorite. Who knows why, I noticed him from the first video I saw of the litter and continue to like what I see of him.


Yes this pup is awesome. He is a copy of Indie without handler sensitivity. He's like a hairy bull terrier, me and him will get on like a house on fire.
The last pup I have been informed is the best pup for herding application. She is hyper sensitive to my mood, body language, voice etc. If I can get it right without ruining her she will be absolutely awesome. After this vid I put her away in her puppy pen and went to get the camera and she had climbed out to come find me to do some more stuff. she follows me everywhere, sleeps by my feet of an evening when I am sitting by the computer. She is very chilled out but has a **** ton of fight in her. As it goes despite her handler sensitivity she has put some mighty bruises on my calf muscles already and plenty of pin holes, too. It's quite the quandary. 
How she matches up with me is basically terribly atm. I am much better working with very robust temperament dogs like Sali, Reggie, Tilly and Digga (for those who know them) where I can **** up but it makes not a bit of difference to them. I struggled a bit with Indie at first and as I had got him at appx 4-6 months (can't remember exactly) I thought he may have been beaten or shouted at by the previous owners but it turned out he was just sensitive. Anyway me and him just kinda bumbled through and now he is not particularly sensitive to my mood but will feel pressure when working with sheep. As a side note I have never had to physically correct Indie for anything including in ob training.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Brian Anderson said:


> I just cant see anything that would bother me ... maybe I am missing something? They still have a while yet until you will be able to see a whole lot. Man the bone in those males .. I still like the little black one


Thanks Brian  I like how Indie passed on that feature.
I'm not bothered by it just need to learn the skills to deal with it more better. I have great plans for this bitch and I intend her being my foundation bitch. 

Rick I'll have a squint at your questions in a mo


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Thanks Brian  I like how Indie passed on that feature.
> I'm not bothered by it just need to learn the skills to deal with it more better. I have great plans for this bitch and I intend her being my foundation bitch.
> 
> Rick I'll have a squint at your questions in a mo



For a solid year thats all I did was work with dogs that were "shy" (LOL)... Im not seeing that in these pups. Maybe if I was there with you I could see better ... I like video but I hate it at the same time lol ... just send the lil one down when hes to much for you and let uncle Brian have a go with him hehehe


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> The last pup I have been informed is the best pup for herding application. She is hyper sensitive to my mood, body language, voice etc. If I can get it right without ruining her she will be absolutely awesome. After this vid I put her away in her puppy pen and went to get the camera and she had climbed out to come find me to do some more stuff. she follows me everywhere, sleeps by my feet of an evening when I am sitting by the computer. She is very chilled out but has a **** ton of fight in her. As it goes despite her handler sensitivity she has put some mighty bruises on my calf muscles already and plenty of pin holes, too. It's quite the quandary.


You know… while I saw what maybe looked like that (sensitivity). I remember thinking that this is an intelligent, bonded pup that appears to have potential to work well independently but does seem that she tires of too much handler influence. And if over handled, maybe it'd become a problem for her. 

I say that because I saw that you could and did turn it (quieting and disengaging) around in your interactions with her. You'd change something just enough and she rebounded. Seems to me she just became bored of the routine you were doing with her. Then I thought well ain't that interesting... It's Matt that the problem, not that puppy lolz. :twisted:

I mean, I see possibility for trouble in what you said about sensitivity if you were doing a bunch of OB drills with this dog but for some reason I imagine if you could settle in your head to just work the dog before you, identify or if you already know what her element is, and it seems you do, she's gonna take care of the rest.

That's my opinion of this puppy.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Brian, you are not the first person who has said "just send me this puppy!" lol

Nicole, yah, the problem is me. I reacted as I did as I do have someone else helping me on FB just wanted to get even more help and opinions/appraisals/outlooks/whatever from you guys.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Rick. 9:36 is where things started to go a bit tits up tbh and set up the next minute and a half of nonsense. If she had taken her dump then come bounding back then I would have been satisfied that it was purely the need for a dump. 
The rest of your observations are because I started prostrating myself like a little bitch so she didn't get sensitive. Good observations though dude, thanks. 

Questions:
*this test did seem to have less consistency (retrieve objects) compared to the sensitivity test i watched. was that the plan ?*

The objects changed as I realized that the Orange pup would retrieve anything to me so I tried it, I was correct. The second time I changed the object was for the sensitive one as I wanted to see if it was the object that was putting her off, again I was correct. 

*curious ... do you intentionally change up the order of pups when you run a set of tests on them or just randomly select whoever is closest at hand, etc ?*

I changed them up this time as I became aware that Orange was less sensitive than black. so the pups are in order of sensitivity from least to most in the vid at this current time. 

Nicole- I think yes this pup gets tired of my shit a bit.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm curious what an outing with her might look like without your influence.; presence yes, but without influence over the pup. Let her run the show so to speak. What happens then? No luring, calling to you, expectations of engagement, just hanging out in her world as she is.

Um, so where's bully black going?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Let us find out shall we 

Black bully is probably staying here, I'll give him a foundation in something then sell him for added value.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Probably is a good word 

About your other pup and the day of "her". I think you and I often are reading off the same page without having to say a lot to one another, but just in case you weren't exactly sure what made me bring her running the show is I'm sure you've seen what excessive mothering can do well, in almost any situation right?

I don't know why exactly but she struck me as a pup/dog that might come with a little different rule book and its written in her language - not yours. Maybe this is that woo and who-shot-John type thinking. But, I had a pup like you are describing and what I see looks familiar. I found, a bit of indifference turned into power for the dog as it matured.

Could turn out to be a waste of your time to try it and see. Or you could find that you have discovered and endless well with this pup.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> I am struggling bad with this little bitch although I do have some help from someone who really does know what she is doing with sensitive dogs.


The assessment and recommendations of this pup from your support is what thus far?

Truth is Matt, I go with my gut and just say what comes to me. My dog experience is pretty limited I suppose = compared to most, I don't know jack shit about dogs. Hence my reason for asking. I'm interested.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Basically the same as you said here:



> I remember thinking that this is an intelligent, bonded pup that appears to have potential to work well independently but does seem that she tires of too much handler influence. And if over handled, maybe it'd become a problem for her.
> 
> I say that because I saw that you could and did turn it (quieting and disengaging) around in your interactions with her. You'd change something just enough and she rebounded. Seems to me she just became bored of the routine you were doing with her. Then I thought well ain't that interesting... It's Matt that the problem, not that puppy lolz.


and also to be more quiet and less pushy.

Anyway this is the best I could do for just leaving her at it as it was already late afternoon and I didn't want to go out anywhere.

It's gets really rather funny towards the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-dzfxInXDA&feature=youtu.be


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

As a side note, that dog of Dicks, "spike" looks the spitting image of my orange collared pup, I wonder what his ped looks like.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Shaping a retrieve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hdsKNOqyWM&feature=youtu.be


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I opened the link and after seeing the length I thought, damn Matt you need to make shorter videos but I decided if I watched no others today this would be it. I read your lead in and then I saw what you did right after that and I smiled. I'm 90 seconds into it and I am interested in seeing if this goes where I think it will.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

And it seems that it did. 

Is this area you are working in blocked off? If not was there thought given to limit her range of movement?

From watching your videos over the years I get the impression that inaction (for a lack of a better way to describe what you were doing) is not a natural way for you to work with your dogs. As in, it wasn't easy to not engage with Rosie in order to achieve the desired outcome.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

You are absolutely correct Nicole, lol.

No it is not blocked in. I never do that, dogs can always just fk off if they want. If they do then they are making it plain and clear that:

A: I am boring as a rock
B: My training is sucking
C: They suck

All is important feedback 

Yah my vids are long but I don't edit anything out. Icould do and make short amazing clips showing how feckin awesome all my dogs are but whats the point, loads of people do that......

Where did it go? What was your prediction Nicole?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

My prediction: it wasn't easy to not engage with Rosie in order to achieve the desired outcome.

BTW I wasn't inferring that short videos = awesome training. The counter statement you gave is a reasonable perspective. Or at least one of several that could be given. Another perspective is a shorter video = shorter session, which this should have been. JMO.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Agreed and agreed.

I always do stuff too long, I am rubbish at time keeping, it's a bi-product of waiting for a helicopter out of hell holes,disengage brain, lol. 
One good observation outcome is that 16mins of basically being more engaged than not being engaged is pretty good for a 10 week old puppy that has never been "trained" engagement. Early days yet, in about a week she will be good at this. Confusion definitely reigned supreme in this vid.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

More:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlrLQBVNvWE


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Handler sensitive is my kryptonite. I'm guessing to many yrs with the crazy little bassids and a couple of serious dogs.

Then of course was my rock solid in everything GSD Thunder.

My GSD Trooper is terribly handler sensitive and that's probably why I've not don anything more then ask for an excellent truck dog. 

I will say the marker training has mad a HUGE difference in how I handle it.

Rick on your retrieve work with the pup she is doing exactly what Trooper did as a pup. 

Low interest in chasing the ball and practically none in bringing it back.

By back chaining it with markers he's crazy to retrieve now. Nothing fancy about his return and out but he's just my yard buddy with no big dreams about precision.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yah, she didn't understand the game at this point, she gets it now. Sali was the same as this pup, she wants to interact with you, not the object. Once she works out the ball is the route to that interaction she will be away 

https://youtu.be/ioZkg_ZRU2k?t=44


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Also YAY! Bobs back


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I was lost and now I've been found. :lol::lol:;-)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt, in your estimation how is Rosie coming along? Do you expect you may need to resort to a different course of interface with her for the life of the dog or in the early developmental and training phases?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Also YAY! Bobs back


Ditto!!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes that's right, welcome back Bob!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Matt, in your estimation how is Rosie coming along? Do you expect you may need to resort to a different course of interface with her for the life of the dog or in the early developmental and training phases?


I have no idea at this point. The only indicator I have is that she is very similar to Sali in many ways, maybe in terms of drive levels/thresholds, but a bit sensitive. This is why I am a bit concerned.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Concern that comes from a lack of certainty? If so, welcome it. A sensitive dog may be what you need to evolve as a handler. At any rate, the freedom which comes from that is you get to just go with what is.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

No, lack of certainty is fine. the concern is that she will have that feral aggression Sali had, it was two years of hell, lol.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

This feral aggression, how do you define that?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'll show you one aspect of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGyGXo05034

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZQUOugvJ7M


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I see. I am familiar with this. My mastiff's dam was like that, but to say it was significantly worse would be an understatement (meaning she'd take it to brutal extremes - nearly killing her sire is one example of that).

What you did with Rosie I would have done as well but sooner and with greater severity. I don't know why but I have an exceedingly low threshold for that kind of behavior.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"feral aggression"

Interesting term.

Good term also.

It does take the dog back to fight or flight and that's how they survived in the wild.

I've always viewed that as a short nerved dog

We breed away from that intentionally but I think dogs can often cross the fine line to that easily when trying to breed for strong, controlled aggression. 

It's fighting against natural selection for survival in the wild.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> "feral aggression"
> 
> Interesting term.
> 
> I've always viewed that as a short nerved dog


I once did as well until I saw a different side of it and at an entirely different level that is almost unimaginable. In a certain breed it's slightly more common and I've seen it carry over to humans. I'd rather not comment on this further but it's nothing to **** around with, as in not take seriously. 

In the example's Matt showed, feral aggression seems a fitting term. In the extremes I know it to exist, I am not quite sure how to define it except pure hell. Even thinking about it makes me sick. I didn't even know dogs would or could do such terrible things seemingly triggered in ways beyond my comprehension. It's almost like the chimpanzee's that go rogue and rip off the faces and fingers of their handlers or competition.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

It's literally a "bad temper" I think Nicole. 
I don't believe it comes from any nerve related place, I think it is more like rage. In my opinion much to much emphasis is placed on weak nerve/fear being the source of all aggression. Some dogs just love fighting and dominating. Seen loads of bull terriers and derivatives thereof with this "issue" also really "Rank" Rotties/Dobes and I can imagine Mastiffs would be good candidates for it. Best description I have heard for this kind of ladder climbing crap is "shit disturber"


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not too sure what exactly is being referred to here but i have had experiences with dogs and humans that might be common to the discussion

i call it rage
there is always a trigger
sometimes the rage is totally out of control and that type usually runs out of steam quicker than when it is controlled rage; which is much more dangerous

would post on what i saw in the pup clip but since it won't affect the opinion of others i see no sense in doing that

but since we often use our own pets as examples here's a detailed example of one of mine that happened just last night

got a 15 yr old white cat that is TOTALLY bonded with me to the extent it is almost ridiculous
- he's slowed down a lot in his later years but was quite the fighter in his younger days and there was never a question all cats and dogs who ever entered this house respected him and never crossed him. 
- but he will still jump up on my lap and knead my stomach looking for a teat to suck on, and act as if he's in a trance...since there's no teat he'll settle for my thumb and suck on that .....everyone who watches this behavior is mesmerized 

so we have a new cat who hangs around now ... 100% feral but has known my dog since it was a kitten and was attracted to it. totally relaxed with him. feral guy has never been inside but regularly sees the other cats thru a clear sliding door....tons of eye contact has gotten them all tolerant of each other
- cats learn a LOT thru observation. it’s totall clear to all the house cats that the feral guy is my buddy and my dog’s buddy. when one of the house cats gets outside there are no fights with the feral guy. all is pretty much good now but it’s taken a few monthsto get here

so last night the screen door was separating the feral guy and my white ‘parasite’ 
white cat was rolling on his side and the feral guy was sitting on the other side of the screen door inches away. no vocalising and seemed like all was good. i went out to see the feral guy and reached down to move the white guy out of the way so i could open the screen and he nailed me HARD with a full force bite with both canines that i could feel in the bones of my hand :-(

when i looked in his eyes it was crystal clear !!
- i know how to be a “pack leader”, but if i had not put him back down and backed off there was NO way he wouldn’t have nailed me again. i mis-read him and wasn’t paying attention. the feral guy outside WAS, and that’s why he was sitting there frozen rather than sitting there in a friendly social manner. i saw it too late…..total “handler error” 

so, feral aggression, redirected aggression, rage, or ???
- first, cats are NOT domestic animals so if you label it feral aggression, they all have it, but they are smart and flight usually works better than fight and costs much less 
- if you are thinking in dog terms, redirected aggression might fit, but he absolutely knew it was ME who came up behind him 
- i would call this rage

not interested in a discussion about how to prevent it or control it or manage it…..just giving my definition


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Matt
honestly...wasn't copying your word //lol//
reacting to what Nicole wrote more than regarding your pup clip

but now i realize it's prob not a good idea to use cats as examples in a dog forum


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Some dogs just love fighting and dominating.


Yes. That is basically what I was getting at, not a nerve issue. As I said in it's worst form, it's a bit disturbing.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick, something like what you described happened to me over the same issue. The difference was that this cat had to be ripped off my leg and forearm. Whatever the hell that was, I never want to experience it again.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Interestingly Sali has been an awesome mother and when she does correct the pups it's very level and measured, again maybe this is a feral thing.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It's a bit of a mystery to me. In the situation of Willow's dam she broke out of her kennel and somehow got into the kennel of another dog to do what she did. I understand that she was a nasty bitch to her pups, having to be supervised with them from very early on, even to the point of intervention on a number of occasions.

At least in Sali's case, or as it was shown in the video there's some balance to her. She does appear to enjoy the play and social interaction but as with Rosie something triggers both of them to react as they do. It's almost as if there's some satisfaction that comes from the resulting submission. Maybe you don't quite see it that way.

In the case of Willow's dam, where Sali would appear to relent, she would not. The smallest expression of recovery would illicit punishment. Obviously, she was not permitted to just roam about freely. He kept her separate when he wasn't around and did supervise her when she was out with the others. 

I saw her in video and the other dogs appeared to legitimately fear her. It was strange to watch. I don't know how it is with Sali in terms of whether or not she can be trusted alone with others or certain others. Anyway, this is not something I recall discussed here much. Refreshing to talk about a different topic.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

> would post on what i saw in the pup clip but since it won't affect the opinion of others i see no sense in doing that


I would be interested in hearing what you have to say Rick, you are very observant at times. Strange that you would think that it's only worth saying something if it's going to change someones opinion. 

Also yah, it's very catlike actually. I don't see why it can't be either. they are all animals and they all exhibit behaviors, there is only a finite amount of behaviors so I see no reason why they cannot overlap.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

we want to trust our animals and my gut feeling is we trust them more than we should

even tho i received a dog who killed two cats i allow him to sleep in the same room with four others, including a newcomer who is still not mature and likes to test other cats to see what he can get away with. he has even thrown a few punches at my dog, but they were slow motion, not real cat punches.....my dog essentially ignored them but would obviously kill him if he seriously felt threatened

we also want to break up fights before the two animals get it resolved between themselves. such is the nature of human control over our animals

we all make decisions as to what levels we will allow and when we intervene.... because we can
- i tend to intervene very early and very often but at the same time i try and force the animals to confront their issues face to face rather than manage from a distance, and of course that is merely a reflection of my personality 
- challenges interest me a lot more than avoidance by taking a safer route. for me....higher risk - higher reward

when working with animals i try and maintain that approach but need to constantly force myself to do as much observing as intervening. 
in my opinion, people who intervene without observing never learn how to read animals


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Matt

re: "they are all animals and they all exhibit behaviors, there is only a finite amount of behaviors so I see no reason why they cannot overlap."

a pigeon, a snake, a dog and a cat.
i could write 20 pages about how wide their variety of behaviors are and how i do not feel they overlap 
- you would not agree 
- therefore, why expend my energy unless this was an animal behavior forum with a lot of members reading ? 

actually, i never said i think it's only worth saying something if it's going to change someone's mind....that was your rephrasing of what you think i meant ;-)

you're posting lots of good vids of your breeding progress and it's stimulating lots of interesting comments. i'm cool with that and appreciate the contribution

i was trained many years ago to develop my observation skills. since i've been a member i observe a LOT more than i post. i've got a couple hundred draft comments that i never bothered sending ;-)
- i'm just not the type to have something to say about everything and i prefer to post when people are asking for specific help to deal with a specific problem, or when a topic particularly interests me. i'll never be raising pups so i'm not following your vids closely


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'll show you how in a sentence or two probably.

A wide variety of behaviors is still finite.

A pigeon looks for food for survival so does a dog and a cat- overlap


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Interesting. How did you learn all the stuff you know Rick?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> we want to trust our animals and my gut feeling is we trust them more than we should
> 
> *** I agree and think it wise that we never lose sight of the fact that they are animals.*
> 
> ...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I completely missed that post by you rick somehow?!?

I agree.

Breaking up this kind of horseshit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qzV-znuvHo


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Sali is a 4 on this.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> I completely missed that post by you rick somehow?!?
> 
> I agree.
> 
> ...


Ah Matt, we are so much alike it's not even funny. Actually, it is funny. Watching you interact with your dogs is like watching myself at times.

That image below I cannot quite make out though. What is it?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Love the video! 

I'm also of the belief that I don't stop and break up all "disagreements" between my dogs simply because they have always been together.

When we constantly jump in and "help" they never settle the situation and can always explode.

We are doing nothing but "capping" that behavior by stopping it to early.

Like Matt did, he saw when the rough house playing got to serious and THEN stopped it. 

I have had terrier look like they were inches from killing each other but then stopped as fast as it started.

Yes, there are dogs that will always try and finish the situation and I've had one like that.

I easily controlled him but knew he was never trust worthy around other dogs. 

I never looked at him as a truly sound dog and that occasionally included with me.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dude you would not believe how much shit I got for this vid.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Perhaps the reason for that is obvious but since it isn't to me I'm going to ask… Why?

As far as I am concerned it was just a different version of Dick Staal's "making it rain"; not surprisingly it worked.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Dude you would not believe how much shit I got for this vid.



In my book your success rate is off the charts so shit criticism is a waste of typing. words, whatever or whom ever gave it to you. ;-)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob- lol, agreed.

Nicole- for allowing it to happen in the first place, for how I dealt with it all kinds of shit. People who have not lived with game bred dogs (or in this case dogs descended from such) think you can solve everything by throwing treats on the floor I'm afraid.

Also what is Dick Staal's making it rain?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Nicole- for allowing it to happen in the first place, for how I dealt with it all kinds of shit. People who have not lived with game bred dogs (or in this case dogs descended from such) think you can solve everything by throwing treats on the floor I'm afraid.
> 
> Also what is Dick Staal's making it rain?


I suppose a lack of reckoning from people who haven't as much experience with dogs as they'd like others to believe.

In short, Dick noticed that the dogs where quiet when it rained. A consequence of excessive vocalizing was him "making it rain" with a hose. Before I knew about this epiphany, I had kindly gifted a flood upon the Dutch but just once to remind her why certain instruction wasn't to be disregarded. :-\". Guess what? It worked.

I don't believe anyone's life should be steeped in drama and cycles or patterns of problems. At least, my own sensibility says growth doesn't come from an unwillingness to change or push thresholds. I also said that my tolerance for certain behaviors is low, yet I found nothing wrong with what took place in that video.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

lol,, been doing that for years, doesn't work with these pups I got though, they think the hose is for winners


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i particularly liked the way you used the water 

....cross posted more on the training thread Dan started


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I use things that come to hand 

After this about a week, they had another ruck inside one of the woooden kennels out back. I lifted the the roof off and looked in and it was like a whirling mass of teeth and Reggie had hold of Hector good. I picked up the 50l buckets of water that are in the outside runs for their water and poured in, no effect :-o another one did the trick though and afterwards Reggie was strutting round like the cock of the north. That was when I had to split them up permanently. After I was talking to Kath and we were laughing about the concept of throwing some treats on the ground in there to stop it. Even if it had distracted them it would have just started up a prey based fight and then it would have been game over for one of them. 
So their answer would be "I wouldn't have let it happen in the first place"
Well that's fair enough to an extent but I think these people have either never had multiple dogs and definitely not multiple super game dogs, probably both.
If I "didn't let it happen in the first place" then the poor dogs would be locked up all day or robots or both. We've only had two serious fights between our dogs, both were caused by Kaths lack of knowledge of this type of dog. I don't mean that offensively to her, she is just not used to the body language of very dominant "rank driven" dogs as her foundation is in BC's. Her Staffy Luna is her first venture into basically dogs that love to fight, to put it crudely. Most of the time it's just my presence that keeps the fights from happening but also I do tend to "prevent" fights between the dogs that would likely kill each other, usually that will just take a stare or a "cut it out" but with Hector and Chucky they have to be kept separate as they have got into some low level, will become serious death matches now.
Having said that most of the time it's all just groovy peace and love here though, notice Hector is in his crate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWZry5EdLO8


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Pigs eh? :twisted:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I started teaching OB classes in the 80s we had a tupperware container that had a beach towel in it.

The towel was damp, not wet, with a water/ammonia solution strong enough to be effective but not strong enough to burn the eyes.

That didn't take much ammonia at all.

The few fights we had it was just a matter of tossing this towel over the top of the dog's heads and the release was very quick.

Not something everyone carries around but in a kennel situation it's easy enough to have on hand if needed.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That reminds me and here I go adding to the "horrendous counters" administered in some cases as a last ditch effort for fight control. The breeder of my second DDB was nearly her 60s when she got into the breed. She lived alone and hand a number of dogs that could be kept together but some fought particularly when females were in season. You guys who have been through fights with dogs that won't quit know things usually only go one way if not stopped. 

Bob's mention above of the towel with solution mixture reminded me that she kept a fire extinguisher on hand just in case and she used it twice. I subscribe to everything said, that includes what rick said on the other post about reading, observing, correct managing and at times letting the dogs work out the issues on their own. To do that you need to really understand what is going on, as in why it starts, what actually is taking place before during and after, and if this behavior is carrying over into other areas as well. 

I also know the reality of what can happen with certain types of dogs. Those who don't know, an example of this was one day my friend came home to find her pit bull had been killed by one of the other dogs in the family. This was a situation that was admittedly poorly managed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I like the fire extinguisher idea! 

Craziest dog fight break up I've seen was between two Kerry Blue terriers. 

They were also used as fighting dogs in their early history and typical of many terriers walked around with a FU attitude with other dogs.

This was at a dog show and both dog's were on leashes but one got to close to another and it hit the fan.

Typical of the terriers both immediately got grips and held on but one was definitely on the bottom.

Another handler walked up and grabbed the one that really had a serious grip on the other dog. He grabbed that dog by the tail and stuck his finger up the dog's ass. That dog released immediately.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't see myself ever doing that but I remember when one of my DDB got into a fight with a pit, he had the entire top of the pits head in his mouth with one of his canines nearly in his eye. When you see stuff like that it does tend to make you feel compelled to do anything possible to stop it.

In this case, it was a situation of poor management on behalf of the pits owner. He let that dog push the limits (dominating and fighting other dogs) too far. It was weird. I've never seen a guy run away from something so fast. He didn't even try to help his dog once the fight started. In fact, it was my other dog who helped stop the fight as she had grabbed my male just behind the shoulders which helped me get control of his head while someone held the other dog. That female DDB was interesting in some of her behaviors. 

That male DDB I got at 10 months of age. He growled once while being fed and then seemingly out of nowhere that bitch flew in and roughed him up. After that she went back to eating. They weren't fed nearby one another and I didn't think she could have heard him since she was eating when it happened. It seemed odd to me that she did that but he never did that again. 

She had a manner of making things "right" in her own way. She steam rolled another dog mid shit that she spotted on the property and then other time she saw another dog harassing a family as they walked down the road. She took off and ran into that dog as she hit it, she grabbed it by the neck and flew over the back of the dog as she flipped it and slammed it onto the ground. Then she turned around and came back like nothing ever happened. 

Who knows maybe people have seen other dogs do stuff like this. I've been around many different breeds throughout my lifetime and that dog did things that just seemed unusual to me - as I said though, maybe it really wasn't all that unusual. Or it was a situation of me totally mismanaging the situations where she was concerned. If anything it seemed like she was doing a pretty good job keeping things in check. She had a short life unfortunately, I lost her to lymphoma at about 2 1/2 years old. 

Anyway, I'm way off topic now...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I always love hearing stories about our dog's behaviors. 

They never cease to amaze me.


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