# Effect of Neutering on Young Male GSD



## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Does anyone have any experience with training or handling a medium drive GSD that was neutered? I've come across a male GSD that was neutered at approximately 11 or 12 months. The dog is now 15 months old. The dog is from established lines with parents who hit the sleeve with gusto. This dog has no sleeve time but it apparently will chase anything and scored very well on the volmer puppy test for sight sensitivity which is the test for chasing a rag. I am thinking about purchasing this dog. I will not be able to work the dog prior to taking possession as the dog is cross country. Just one of those things. I've done it before and never regretted the decision.

Does anyone have any firsthand knowledge of what may of happened to this dog's drives, or what may happen to this dog's drives? Anything else I should think about besides the fact this dog will never be able to breed? Thanks!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jason Caldwell said:


> Does anyone have any experience with training or handling a medium drive GSD that was neutered? I've come across a male GSD that was neutered at approximately 11 or 12 months. The dog is now 15 months old. The dog is from established lines with parents who hit the sleeve with gusto. This dog has no sleeve time but it apparently will chase anything and scored very well on the volmer puppy test for sight sensitivity which is the test for chasing a rag. I am thinking about purchasing this dog. I will not be able to work the dog prior to taking possession as the dog is cross country. Just one of those things. I've done it before and never regretted the decision.
> 
> Does anyone have any firsthand knowledge of what may of happened to this dog's drives, or what may happen to this dog's drives? Anything else I should think about besides the fact this dog will never be able to breed? Thanks!


You are brave or stupid to do that. At least find someone there to work the dog and capture some video for you to evaluate.

I've gotten burned in trusting other people's (very wrong) assessments of dogs. Expensive, especially when transport is involved. And a few bite marks to show from it too.

If the dog isn't what you hope, what is your plan?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Who is this dog out of?

Depends what you call medium. Just because he will chase a rag doesn't mean a lot. Does he have nerves? You really don't know because there's been no training with him. If you are getting him chep remember this, good dogs aren't cheap and cheap dogs aren't good. Sometimes luck plays a part, not often.


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Hi Anne,

Not sure about stupid or brave, but like most dog people, maybe a little crazy:-\" 

If the dog has no zip and prefers to sleep 23 hours a day, or conversely, is really a wolf that decides to make me its daily snack, I have a strong out: the dog's breeder wants the dog back.

I'd love to get footage of the dog working, doing anything. It's not a possibility. Wish it was though.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I have been selling a few dogs for my breeder and this is my first time doing this. 

I have gotten e-mails and the first thing I tell them is that I can get Video of the dog working and am MORE than open to them having a trainer or friend whatever come and evaluate the dog. In fact I have been encouraging people to have someone if not themselves come and evaluate the dog in addition to the videos that I can provide. I know what *I* like in a dog but that may not apply to you or Jerry, or Anne. All our preferences are different and I as a seller want to make dang sure that the dog is the right fit for you and your lifestyle,needs and wants. 

I personally would NOT transport a dog that you have received no video on at the very least. That is a VERY risky venture IMO. 

Why can't they provide video? Where are they located? There may be a member here that would be close enough and willing to evaluate the dog for you. 

Courtney


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

I appreciate the words of caution for sure. I realize this is not the best way to procure a dog. That said, I am driving to the dog to evaluate the dog. If you have any good audio books, send them my way.

That aside, I still am interested in any personal experiences anyone might have with changes in their male sport dog if and ever it was neutered. While few people neuter their healthy sport dogs, it is routinely done with dogs that have a teste or testes that will not drop.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Jason, I recently took in a male GSD at 18months old, was being surrendered by the original owners for biting people....he did have a lot of aggression, I had him neutered hoping it would calm him down-he is currently doing great, we are doing bite work now, and appears not to have any problems with his drive to work. He is doing very good!!


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Mo,

Thanks for your post, and for giving that GSD a shot. Sounds like it was a win/win/win.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mo Earle said:


> Jason, I recently took in a male GSD at 18months old, was being surrendered by the original owners for biting people....he did have a lot of aggression, *I had him neutered hoping it would calm him down-he is currently doing great, we are doing bite work now, and appears not to have any problems with his drive to work. He is doing very good!!*



OK MO! Will the same "operation" work on dumb high school kids.? If so, I have a list and will check it twice, three times if need be!!!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

First off - as far as I know - neutering can never alter a dog's drive, the sexual drive obviously, but not the other drives.

I once wrote an article in the Molosser Journal over here, speaking against neutering as it didn't bring the results that people were hoping from it and I said maybe many parents would be glad of the opportunity to do this with their kids but that they should buy stuffed animals if they were not even in the position to train their dogs. I met a doctor at the AGM and he said he had had a laugh attack on reading the article.

Why do you want this dog? Something must be drawing you to it. When I think of the work I undertake to get a normal, healthy, athletic dog with drive, I wonder what your reasons are. If they are "do-good" then I would say they are commendable. But this is a 10-12 year commitment and may end up in a "oh! well, the family love him" situation. Also not bad, but do you want this?


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Our club president had to neuture her male GSD a couple of years ago . He never changed a bit and continued to trial until he was 9 (I think).


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Gillian, Thanks for your post.

Why do I want the dog? Let me first say I've arranged to meet the dog who is now in the hands of a person who is not a dog handler. The dog's handler is overseas for an indeterminate period after leaving abruptly. All this is verified. I'll be able to meet the dog and do a little work but I don't believe I will have a helper with me. 

To answer your question I've followed the dog's father for several years and at a certain point decided I wanted one of his puppies. Tough since the sire was overseas and there were two changes in ownership along the way. I realize this doesn't guarantee anything with his puppy. I know his lineage doesn't guarantee anything. If he has half of his dad's nerves, however, then wonderful. I've seen video of the mother doing civil work. I wouldn't mess with her. 

In fairness to your question beyond my answer thus far, part of this might be my personality. Gambling on a dog, to me, is much less of a sin than all the other gambles we routinely make in life.


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Upon the heels of a PM from a WDF user, I've spent as much time as possible looking into how removing a male's gonads can be a real problem if the dog's growth plates have not locked in place. Removing the gonads inhibits the growth plates from stopping. The growth plates keep going and you end up with a GSD that looks like a coyoye, a back that is taller than it should be, a longer length, and a slimmer face. I glanced at a study of golden retrievers who were neutered at seven months. Their skeletal difference between un-neutered goldens was cited by the researchers as "significant." 

It's hard to tell when all of this happens, however. This issue of the growth plates is really worrisome. Some times one growth plate will lock in place, the neutering will occur, and unfortunately, other growth plates will not have had time to be locked in place. If one leg bone's growth plate is locked, and another leg bone is not yet locked before the neutering, you end up with a dog that could have serious joint problems later in life.

All this has left me furious at the vet, whoever she or he is. This dog was left in the care of a civilian who thought they would give it a run as the dog's new owner, so what did they do? They took it to a civilian vet who said, "well, let's see what we can do to make a little money for the clinic today. Sure, it's okay to neuter a dog for no reason espescially when there are no females at your house, possibly inhibit its skeletal growth, and triple its chances for bone cancer. Would you like pet insurance too? Or maybe I can interest you in $100 bottle of flea and tick shampoo? I won't bother to ask anything about this dog's lineage or how you're now in possession of the dog, or why we can't just do this in two years. Oh wait, I know why we should do this today, my car payment is due this Friday." 

I've met some great vets but a lot of them are just hacks who bombed the MCAT. This dog NEVER should have been neutered before 2 years of age. No reason for it, whatsoever. I learned a long time ago to say "no" to vets and when you do that a few times you notice they put you in a whole other category from their "sure, let's do it" clients. They know not to offer me the canine teeth whitening procedure for $300, which my vet ran last summer. Wow, that was a good gripe.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Neutering is a simple operation which takes most vets little time to do. More time is spent in the prep work than in the actual operation. And the vet can also claim “surgery” status for this simple procedure. Sure, there may be good claim to reducing testicular cancer, but if there were lots of foundation to that, wouldn’t every male in the world be cut?

Done too early to dogs, and the male will have a bitchy look as the secondary sexual characteristics can’t fully take place. Genetics make the animal largely what it is and environmental elements can play to this as well. So why neuter? Is this going to keep males from marking property? Females mark too!

Unless there is a REAL good reason to do it, I will always tell my vet, “No thanks, cash kept closer to home.”


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jason, I was going to ask you why they had the dog neutered.

I think it's too easy just to give the vet the blame although I have had experience with some who came to give advice at our dog club after a course of puppy lessons. Each time someone said "my dog does or doesn't" the answer from the vet was "castrate it". I got so narked and said what was the point of giving lessons on how to bring up a pup when "Mack the Knife" came on and said "cut". We stopped asking them to give lectures.

When you buy a dog, you have the chance of learning about how it ticks, what it needs to keep it healthy, and, and and. The net is full of healthy advice. Dog club members also are willing to share their experiences.

No vet would ever persuade me to have a male or female neurtered before I had done some research into the matter.

Another sad thing is, the breeder usually learns of the dog being neutered or PTS after the act.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

*Rüden* 
*[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana]Im Gegensatz zur Hündin kann sich die Kastration beim männlichen Tier auf das Skelettwachstum auswirken. [/FONT]*
*[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana]Bei einer Kastration vor Erreichen der Geschlechtsreife dauert das Knochenwachstum länger, und der Rüde wird geringfügig größer.[/FONT]*

*Dogs*
*As opposed to the castration of bitches, the castration of the male can affect the skeleton growth.*
*Castration before reaching sexual maturity can cause some delay of the bone growth and the dog will be slightly larger.*

*I've found nothing else at the moment to suggest anything worse than this although I'm definitely against castration if not for health purposes.*


*Pity interesting subjects like this get PM'd.:roll: *


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_
"OK MO! Will the same "operation" work on dumb high school kids.?"" _Howard:-k..don't know....I only deal with the 4 legged kids:mrgreen:\\/


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My cut and paste skills suck! 
Type in "early spay neuter" on google. 
There is a ton of info!
The only thing I've ever seen to have any effect by neutering a dog is "sometimes" it can reduce dog on dog aggression. 
Other then that it's all about being a responsible owner. 
Never ask the "average" vet anything on behaviour or nutrition. They don't know!


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

It's looking like I'll meet the dog around April the 15th. 

Every source I've talked to offline has told me the dog was probably not neutered early. I've gotten more pics of the dog from after the neutering and it looks very proportionate. The head is definitely blocky, his back is flat, and his butt is square but slopes down toward his haunches. 

Thanks for all the good comments on this thread.


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## joyce martinez (Aug 28, 2008)

I work with a GSD rescue (all our dogs are fixed before they are adopted out) & last year we rescued a 1 yr old male from the shelter that was already neutered, with an extremely high prey drive. The shelter deemed him as un-adoptable to the public so we had to get him. After months of working with him, he was taken to a police K-9 training facility, to be evaluated & trained. He graduated top of his “class”. He was adopted by one of the police agencies and is now the leading K-9 at his PD in drug busts. While this is just one example, IMO neutering him did not affect his abilities at all. There are numerous other examples of our rescue dogs becoming service dogs, or in search and rescue and all are neutered.


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

Joyce,

Some wonderful posts on this subject but yours was incredibly enlightening. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience!


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## Tammy Cohen (Dec 21, 2008)

One of my trainers who has been training working dogs for close to 20 years believes very strongly that neutering has a negative effect on the dog mentally. 
I have also spoken to the nutritional physiologist that works for Abady dog food about the subject. He also feels very strongly that a dog should never be altered or it should be done as late in life as possible. He went on in length about hormones and nutrition etc.
In my personal experience, I have a 4 year old boston terrier that was neutered at 8 weeks old (before I got him) Of my 11 dogs (5 bostons) he is THE MOST pushy, dominant little S.O.B. you'll meet. He urine marks and even tries his hardest to breed my female when she's in heat, not dominant mounting but really tries to breed, red rocket and everything. Bizarre! Physically he is not very masculine looking, he is fine boned and very long legged.

I think it kind of sucks that you found your potential dream dog and he's neutered. I don't think you could get a definitive answer from anyone if it will definitely have an effect on his working ability. Hopefully it will work out and he'll be a great dog. 

Not to pee in your cheerios but if it was me personally I would keep looking for another dog but thats mainly because there are way too many "what if's" You never really know what you'll end up with when you get any dog, even if it has everything going for it. I know I don't have any more room for pet dogs. And what if he turns out to be the best dog ever? You put years of work into him, down the road it would probably be nice to breed him, but obviously you won't have that option.

I guess it boils down to what you really want, and what you think you will want 5 years from now.Ask yourself will you be happy with an awesome working male you can't breed, or a neutered house pet? If yes then go for it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jason Caldwell said:


> ... I've met some great vets


So have I.

Many, in fact.


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