# Loosening stools.



## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I feed 11 chicken necks (3 with the fat skin on) at night, and a 2 - 3 cup veggie, fruit, yogurt, chicken burger and innards mix in the morning supplemented with Vit E, C, and Salmon Oil (thanks Connie). The morning stool, which is mostly made up of the undigestibles from the chicken necks...comes out of my dog just as if your trying to push a cork into a wine bottle the wrong way. It can be done...but wow.

My dog actually looks back at himself and wonders, "Why doesn't that function like the rest of me: fast?"

What can I add to the chicken necks at night, that would make the stool "flow" better?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> I feed 11 chicken necks (3 with the fat skin on) at night, and a 2 - 3 cup mix of veggie, fruit, yogurt, chicken burger and innards mix in the morning supplemented with Vit E, C, and Salmon Oil (thanks Connie). The morning stool, which is mostly made up of the undigestibles from the chicken necks...comes out of my dog just as if your trying to push a cork into a wine bottle the wrong way. It can be done...but wow.
> 
> My dog actually looks back at himself and wonders, "Why doesn't that function like the rest of me: fast?"
> 
> What can I add to the chicken necks at night, that would make the stool "flow" better?


If this is a new thing and the food has not changed, I would probably be suspicious of parasites.

If something is new, then I'd stop that thing and see what happens.

You can add plain cooked (canned) pumpkin, which IME almost always firms up a little temporary bout, but if this is every day, then I'd be thinking it's something else.

If organ meat is new: Some dogs need organ meat to be added very gradually. Also, 5-10% of the diet is probably enough organ meat.

If the yogurt is new: Some dogs are sensitive to milk products. Not plain unsweetened yogurt, usually, and usually not cheese, but it can happen.

Also, if any fat is new (salmon oil or the chicken skin): I start new fats slowly and gradually.

Vitamin C: I don't generally give C, but there is disagreement about that. Dogs make their own, unlike us, and I feed produce too, so I don't generally supplement C. But either way, large doses of C are excreted in urtine or watery poop; anything over the immediate requirement is gotten rid of. (Same with humans, which is why C for humans is much better taken in small doses throughout the day.)

Is the dog on any prescription meds? Some trigger diarrhea.

So, if I had done a fecal check, my next step would probably be to stop the C and add pumpkin for a few days and observe. (If any fats were new, I'd cut them back and increase slowly.)

All JMO. But I will also look at Merck and others.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Maybe try a bit of psyllium - 1/2 tsp or so can work for stress diarheaa or constipation believe it or not. 

your mixture sounds pretty low fat, I would be leaving the skin on the chicken necks unless your ground chicken is really fatty, which tends to be lean as it is usually grouond up without the skin on. Chicken necks themself are pretty much all bone so maybe back off on the necks a little and up the muscle meat and fat and see if that works.

Is this the dog you said was not a great drinker? - maybe baited water at regular intervals to keep hydrated and then you know how much is ging in him. If you do the psyllium thing they have to be wel hyrdated.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Yes Lynn...same dog. I baited the water...hydration problem and UTI solved. The only "new" thing is that I exchanged the feeding time for the two meals. Before it was chicken necks in the am and Mix in the pm, but he would regurgitate some of the mix at night. I switched them, and now he doesn't regurgitate anything.

His morning stool is really hard...there's no diarrhea. I'll try to increase the fat content a bit.

Any other suggestions so that the morning stool is easier to pass through for the dog?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Wow..... I read your o.p. on my way out earlier, obviously too fast, and answered as if the dog had diarrhea.

Now I'm back at home, re-reading and seeing that the dog has the opposite of diarrhea.  

Ignore everything I said (unless you ever have a dog with diarrhea). :lol: 

I too would increase water, increase fat, and decrease bone.

(In fact, the way some raw feeders gauge bone-muscle meat ratio is by the stools -- too hard means to add more muscle meat, and too soft means to up the bone.)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

How about the veggies? Are they puried or just chopped up? Couldn't that have some effect because of a dogs inability to digest plant cellouse?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

The veggies go through my wife's juicer, so the remaining pulp is very "pulpy". Then the juice is mixed back in.

After reading the answers so far, I'm going to increase the meat intake for the night feeding, and decrease the bone a bit.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Or you could just feed dog food with added fat.


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## Debbie High (Jul 2, 2006)

Andres, I feed chicken backs instead of necks. I do remove some of the fat if there seems to be too much but, leave the skin. One advantage with backs is that some of the little innard type things are still there. My 65lbs. bitch gets two with an egg added a few times per week. I also put about an inch of water in the bottom of her food dish.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie High said:


> Andres, I feed chicken backs instead of necks. I do remove some of the fat if there seems to be too much but, leave the skin. One advantage with backs is that some of the little innard type things are still there. My 65lbs. bitch gets two with an egg added a few times per week. I also put about an inch of water in the bottom of her food dish.


I do that added water thing too, now that I have a dog who never drinks water. Any water that touched food, however....... :roll:


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2006)

In my experience, necks don't seem to be as digestable in large amounts as backs.

They are mainly bone and compared to backs quite hard bone, and not so much like cartilage as straight backs.

When I feed too much bone it comes out like tennis balls under a little pressure and looks like owl pellets and kinda has a yeast smell, I know this because I pick it up.

I like to feed raw because of many of the end results, but it is a pain in the a$$ and definately costs more no matter what your sources are.

Adding fat to dog food like Jeff suggests is an alternative, or meat etc.
Lots of people say not to mix kibble with raw or to feed one meal raw, one meal kibble because of the different digestion rates. 

I have never seen any bad results from this, in my experience.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> .... Lots of people say not to mix kibble with raw or to feed one meal raw, one meal kibble because of the different digestion rates. .... I have never seen any bad results from this, in my experience.


Many people do this with no bad effects.

OTOH, the reasons not to do it are valid, IMO. Kibble takes three times (or more) as long as RMBs to digest, this forcing the raw food into unaturally long contact with the digestive system.

The main reason for dogs' being impervious to the pathogens in raw meat is their speedy digestion --- the raw food isn't in there long enough, in general, for pathogens to colonize.

BTW, I gently disagree about the cost. Someone who has a source for backs and necks for under a dollar per pound is going to be paying a shade less for food than someone feeding high-end kibble (or medium-priced canned food) to the same size dog.

Another club member and I worked this out with two people who were switching to raw. 

Of course, not everyone has a source at that price (I do not, for example :lol: ), but they exist.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> .... They are mainly bone and compared to backs quite hard bone, and not so much like cartilage as straight backs...


Yes, I agree that backs are a great mainstay. Soft bone and a good ratio of bone to meat.

I see backs and necks packaged together (for people who make stock); a good combo, I think.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I pay 40 euro for a month supplie raw for 1 dog..

all parts of chicken
organs, meat & ribs of goat
tripe
duck
rabbit

is on Anne menu.

she is complety raw fed, the others kibble with pre produced meat (commercial trade)


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2006)

"Many people do this with no bad effects. 

OTOH, the reasons not to do it are valid, IMO. Kibble takes three times (or more) as long as RMBs to digest, this forcing the raw food into unaturally long contact with the digestive system. 

The main reason for dogs' being impervious to the pathogens in raw meat is their speedy digestion --- the raw food isn't in there long enough, in general, for pathogens to colonize."

Of course you are right on this Connie, I should have said I feed some kibble (evo) during any given day for treats or rewards, and never had a problem.

I don't mix raw and kibble for the basis of my dogs food, yes if you are feeding a high end kibble it costs approx 2 bucks a pound, but you don't feed up to 5 lbs daily/total weight.

I wish I could find a source like Selena, but 40 euro's or maybe 75 bucks per dog CDN is just impossible here, even if you grow it yourself.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd like that source too.

I'm buying the bulk of the dogs' meat at a natural foods store's butcher counter, so the per-pound cost is a little high. However, the service is excellent, with free grinding of anything I want them to throw in with weight-bearing bones, and so is the free stuff, on occasion. I get frozen fish at Trader Joe's. Organ meat, of course, is very cheap. Produce at the farmers' market at the end of the day is also very cheap. At the local fishermen's stall at the FM, I get cheap scraps from filleting.

I feed about 3% body weight for a pretty active, well-exercised dog.

That's about 2 pounds for the big one.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2006)

I tried the 3-5% of optimal weight for any given age, but it just wasn't enough.

I think that's just a suggestion, like a speed limit sign :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

That's cool, I think, because I think it means that your dogs get very good exercise.

I thought mine did, too, but since the 3% guideline works, I might be exaggerating their exercise in my mind. :lol:


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## Derek Sanders (Jul 11, 2006)

May I ask, is it ok to feed something like THK one meal and a kibble like Evo the other?
I too am having hard stool problem (well not me personally but my dogs  ) as well they have become dirt eaters since switching them from THK to Evo (I like to switch the food every quarter for variety of nutrients)
Their diet currently consists of Evo, fish oil, vit E, yogurt, glucosamine and cranberry juice.
Thank you in advance


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Derek Sanders said:


> May I ask, is it ok to feed something like THK one meal and a kibble like Evo the other?
> I too am having hard stool problem (well not me personally but my dogs  ) as well they have become dirt eaters since switching them from THK to Evo (I like to switch the food every quarter for variety of nutrients)
> Their diet currently consists of Evo, fish oil, vit E, yogurt, glucosamine and cranberry juice.
> Thank you in advance


I think it's fine. I think THK is fine with anything else. It's dehydrated at temps high enough to kill pathogen, but not baked and extruded. And two of their recipes (Force and Embark) have no grain.

I think that THK is also fine to rehydrate kind of thin and use as a "gravy" over anything else you might feed. It's balanced, it contains good produce ..... I don't know any reason for not using it with just about anything except its high cost (and its flax, for a dog with a flax allergy).

I know someone who feeds raw meat and bones and uses THK that way just to supply the produce in it.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

my source is a muslim butcher in Rotterdam, who sells a lot to the rawfeeding people. My friend lives there and I can pick it up by her.

Fish I get from the market, salmon head with filet for 1 a piece. I use the 3 % rule, that comes to about a kilo a day for Anne.


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