# PPD vs. sports and policedog?



## Jack Lee

How do you think the difference between PPD and sports AND PPD and poclicedog?

I believe satisfying PPD is very difficult to find .


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## Butch Cappel

Jack, the difference in PPD and PSD are mostly in the job being done by the dog. I guess really the difference in all of these dogs is the job we are asking them to do. 

A sport dog is trying to get points in the discipline they are competing in and they will use canine skills, possibly biting and scenting, to get the points. 

The K9 Pro Sport rule book classifies a Personal Protection dog as one that is "protecting" the owner or their property, and a PSD or in K9PS "Patrol Dog" a dog whose job it is to apprehend someone on command. 

If you go by these definitions, then a PPD or PSD is a dog using those same biting or scenting kills to stop a man or to catch a man. In all three types the dogs use pretty much the same skills, but have a different goal at the conclusion. So I think the only difference is the job being done, which means you can get a good dog in any of these disciplines.


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## Jack Lee

Many dogs can "protect" the owner.
My defenition of PPD is : family pet and soldier.
So stable ,neighbors like the dog ,when the dog walks around by itself (no owner).
So much fight drive , the dog will fight agaist 3 men with bat or knife ,not just run away.


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## mike suttle

there are some dogs that can do PPD, sport, and PSD with no problem.
Then there are some dogs that are only suited for PPD, and some that are only suited for sport.
In nearly every case a real PSD can do PPD work for sure, and usually sport as well, but not in every case can a PPD or a sport dog do PSD work.
I am talking about the few real PSD's that are out there, and not many of the ones that we see on the street who should not be there to begin with.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jack Lee said:


> How do you think the difference between PPD and sports AND PPD and poclicedog?
> 
> I believe satisfying PPD is very difficult to find .


Hello Jack

I think the main difference is in testing. You know how good your sport dog is, by his scores under impartial judges.
You know if your Police Dog is suitable for the street by certification and on the job performance.
There is no reliable, respected, accepted certification for
PPD. There are a few suit sports (PSA, APPDA) that test for
PP but too many back yard trainers wouldn't trial their dogs.
It's a lot easier to talk about your bad azz dog then it is to
actually test him. There may be a few people that actually can train an effective PPD, but IMHO most so called "Personal Protection Dogs" are fear biting shitters who would head for the hills if let off leash.


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## Dave Colborn

Jack.

In a PP dog I want some thing that is part of my home defense SYSTEM. Something that will "wake up the gun". A good watch dog that barks, provides a deterrent, and not much more. I am not planning on having the dog fight for me, as having a dog that is social enough to be around people, yet still bite reliably, is hard to find, and hard to maintain the training. I am paranoid and expect dogs that I train to bite, to do just that. A dog is not an animal that I am comfortable leaving the decision up to when being around other people that can provide stimulation that may cause the dog to bite in inappropriate situations. Not saying a PP can't be done, I just have different standards for what I want. More importantly to me is having mindset that goes along with being safe and staying alive. A general plan of what to do if things happen, and a will to survive it. Way more important to me than any of the tools that are used. Dogs are not a be all end all, and if I can pick up a screw driver, pencil, toaster oven, wooden spoon handle and deter my attacker visciously, then I win.

For a police dog, I want something strong, that will bite when I need them to, and find dope/bombs when I need that. Social enough to be in the same room with people and dogs, but never having people petting or rubbing all over him without a muzzle. Same paranoia here, if I train them to bite, and do it well, there is a chance that the dog will do it when it is innapropriate. In my experience, most tough dogs don't have all the accidental bites the weaker dogs do, because the handlers aren't as concerned as they would be if they had a "hard dog".

A sport dog should be a dog that can complete the tasks in the sport that you intend to do. 

For all three, you should have a dog that you like being around, or whose work qualities out weigh their negative behaviors. 

My two cents


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The difference is easy, sport is way harder on the dog to train.

PSD is easier than sport, because their idea what it needs to be is completely ****ed, and they are dumb enough to believe that OB takes away from the power of the bite. : )

PPD is retarded easy, because most ppd people have even less of a clue than law enforcement. Just teach the dog to show a lot of teeth. LOL No control necessary.

The real difference here is the dog. That is what you need to pay attention to, not the activity.


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## John Haudenshield

Dave Colborn said:


> Jack.
> 
> In a PP dog I want some thing that is part of my home defense SYSTEM. Something that will "wake up the gun". A good watch dog that barks, provides a deterrent, and not much more. I am not planning on having the dog fight for me, as having a dog that is social enough to be around people, yet still bite reliably, is hard to find, and hard to maintain the training. I am paranoid and expect dogs that I train to bite, to do just that. A dog is not an animal that I am comfortable leaving the decision up to when being around other people that can provide stimulation that may cause the dog to bite in inappropriate situations. Not saying a PP can't be done, I just have different standards for what I want. More importantly to me is having mindset that goes along with being safe and staying alive. A general plan of what to do if things happen, and a will to survive it. Way more important to me than any of the tools that are used. Dogs are not a be all end all, and if I can pick up a screw driver, pencil, toaster oven, wooden spoon handle and deter my attacker visciously, then I win.
> 
> For a police dog, I want something strong, that will bite when I need them to, and find dope/bombs when I need that. Social enough to be in the same room with people and dogs, but never having people petting or rubbing all over him without a muzzle. Same paranoia here, if I train them to bite, and do it well, there is a chance that the dog will do it when it is innapropriate. In my experience, most tough dogs don't have all the accidental bites the weaker dogs do, because the handlers aren't as concerned as they would be if they had a "hard dog".
> 
> A sport dog should be a dog that can complete the tasks in the sport that you intend to do.
> 
> For all three, you should have a dog that you like being around, or whose work qualities out weigh their negative behaviors.
> 
> My two cents


Well stated Dave!


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## will fernandez

hmmm...

Narcotics training-vehicle, building, open area

tracking-multi surface in urban and rural areas

suspect search-vehicles, buildings, wooded areas and any other place a human can hide

Tactical searches-with other officers dressed in what would appear to bite suits and off lead directed searches with the tools of the trade

Apprehension-active/passive violent criminals without any type of bite presentation that dont want to go to jail--French decoys have nothing on some young crooks that want to go home to Momma

agility-various jumps, ladder climbs, tunnels and walls

obedience- for all types of situations

Yeah I guess sports could be harder....Now PPD"s are super special


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: French decoys have nothing on some young crooks that want to go home to Momma.

Where can I get some of these on a regular basis ?? I would like to test that theory.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jack Lee said:


> How do you think the difference between PPD and sports AND PPD and poclicedog?
> 
> I believe satisfying PPD is very difficult to find .


Jack here's the real difference...BS aside, sport dogs are trained to WIN points. LE dogs are trained for either patrol and/or ND. PPDs need not be trained for narcotics work...why do it? If the PPD is trained right, it should show similar degrees of bite work ability as LE dogs, drugs don't count. It's like throwing in the priss group/showlines and wanting real deal work! 

PPD slammers do so because they aren't winning points with the dog and have NO REAL venue to test the outcome. PSA? Right, how many bad guys are out there with streamers and junk? Sport guys don't do suit and leg bites, as found in SCH. If you ever look at my arms and legs you would see some nice K-9 tattoos from the teeth!

It is impossible to broad-brush any venue and for any reason, too much going on!!!


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## Dave Colborn

Howard Gaines III said:


> Jack here's the real difference...BS aside, sport dogs are trained to WIN points. LE dogs are trained for either patrol and/or ND. PPDs need not be trained for narcotics work...why do it? If the PPD is trained right, it should show similar degrees of bite work ability as LE dogs, drugs don't count. It's like throwing in the priss group/showlines and wanting real deal work!
> 
> PPD slammers do so because they aren't winning points with the dog and have NO REAL venue to test the outcome. PSA? Right, how many bad guys are out there with streamers and junk? Sport guys don't do suit and leg bites, as found in SCH. If you ever look at my arms and legs you would see some nice K-9 tattoos from the teeth!
> 
> It is impossible to broad-brush any venue and for any reason, too much going on!!!


 
So it is impossible to test a PPD? Sounds like a cop out. Why don't you create the venue?

PSA and a few others use suits and do leg bites. 

PPD slammers are great. I have seen a few of these REAL dogs that can't be around anyone but family and sometimes not even around them. Which means they are locked up when you have visitors. Some canI am sure, but this mystical PP dog that is friendly with family and more than a good deterrent is few and far between and hard to maintain.

PPD and police dogs both have rules, they have judges. Everything is sport. Just with PP and Police dogs, the fail part of the Pass/Fail may mean more than missing the podium.

There isn't much difference in the three types of the dogs if they are good at their job. they all need the same traits and abilities. Now get into what traits and abilities people think a PP, Police Dog, and a Sport dog needs....


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## Kyle Sprag

"PPD slammers are great. I have seen a few of these REAL dogs that can't be around anyone but family and sometimes not even around them. Which means they are locked up when you have visitors. Some canI am sure, but this mystical PP dog that is friendly with family and more than a good deterrent is few and far between and hard to maintain."


Not true at all.


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## Dave Colborn

PPD slammers are great. I have seen a few of these REAL dogs that can't be around anyone but family and sometimes not even around them. Which means they are locked up when you have visitors. Some canI am sure, but this mystical PP dog that is friendly with family and more than a good deterrent is few and far between and hard to maintain."


Not true at all.[/quote]


Kyle. I agree that there may be some dogs that can do this. Not many, few and far between. That is what I said. But then how can we really prove that they'll bite since Howard says there is no venue to test the dog?

Sure they may be good around people, but not bite, or vice versa. How do you test this??


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## Kyle Sprag

Well Dave I wuould say it is the Rule rather than the exception. The 6 or so House/Family dogs I have had or know very well have had Live bites and are good around Kids, strangers, family etc...


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## Dave Colborn

Kyle Sprag said:


> Well Dave I wuould say it is the Rule rather than the exception. The 6 or so House/Family dogs I have had or know very well have had Live bites and are good around Kids, strangers, family etc...


 
Kyle. Ok. now I understand. I am saying that you are the exception having good dogs, and you are saying that a strong nerved PP dog is common. It might be that you are a good trainer, and that is why you have had success. I could be I have just seen all the shitters.

I don't know how to prove that one, so I'll just keep it as my opinoin and not argue about it.


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## Thomas Barriano

Kyle Sprag said:


> Well Dave I wuould say it is the Rule rather than the exception. The 6 or so House/Family dogs I have had or know very well have had Live bites and are good around Kids, strangers, family etc...


Hi Kyle

How many of the "6 or so house dogs that have had live bites" have also had sport training? I don't consider a dog with sport training as being a PPD. We both know that lots of sport dogs have and will, protect their owners. Too many self proclaimed PP dog trainers, are afraid (or reluctant?) of testing in any kind of sport venue.


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## Kyle Sprag

Dave Colborn said:


> Kyle. Ok. now I understand. I am saying that you are the exception having good dogs, and you are saying that a strong nerved PP dog is common. It might be that you are a good trainer, and that is why you have had success. I could be I have just seen all the shitters.
> 
> I don't know how to prove that one, so I'll just keep it as my opinoin and not argue about it.


 
yes I have seen a World of crappers as well, I am talking about good dogs owned by experienced dog people. It has as much to do with the dog as training. I would agree with you that strong nerved PP dogs are NOT common in the big picture but I don't count the Clowns in the number.:wink:


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## Kyle Sprag

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Kyle
> 
> How many of the "6 or so house dogs that have had live bites" have also had sport training? I don't consider a dog with sport training as being a PPD. We both know that lots of sport dogs have and will, protect their owners. Too many self proclaimed PP dog trainers, are afraid (or reluctant?) of testing in any kind of sport venue.


 
All of them where Either PH I and/ had trained or titled in PSA, two of them had also been PSDs in the past.

We always use to train a lot of Fun type scenario stuff in buildings, vans, cars etc... more than just running through trial exercises.

I don't want to blow it out of proportion but there is always a element of situational awareness all Solid Bitting dogs posess IMO.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Kyle Sprag said:


> "PPD slammers are great. I have seen a few of these REAL dogs that can't be around anyone but family and sometimes not even around them. Which means they are locked up when you have visitors. Some canI am sure, but this mystical PP dog that is friendly with family and more than a good deterrent is few and far between and hard to maintain."
> 
> 
> Not true at all.


I can only state my experiences with my 2 Dutchies. My male will accept people outside the family pack. He does not like them but will accept them in the house or anywhere I go.

The female is very different. She will sit next to me when other people are here. she will walk off leash without bothering anybody. They can tell and I know she HATES them. I tell brave company not to look at her and definitely not stare.

Most of the time I don't want to put up with the hassle of watching her every second, so I crate her. If somebody is invited into my house and sticks a gun in my face, it's my stupidity.

That being said, guess which one I take in the truck when I go to iffy areas? She is smaller than my male. The male has a stronger appearance. My male is no slouch but that female's HATE is a beautiful thing to see in IMO. It is unmistakable to a stranger.

If I'm a schmuck trainer so be it. But I honestly believe it is this dogs temperament.


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## Dave Colborn

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Kyle
> 
> How many of the "6 or so house dogs that have had live bites" have also had sport training? I don't consider a dog with sport training as being a PPD. We both know that lots of sport dogs have and will, protect their owners. Too many self proclaimed PP dog trainers, are afraid (or reluctant?) of testing in any kind of sport venue.


Why couldn't the dog have sport training and still be a PP? Wouldn't that be a great way to do the foundation work? And don't some sports test dogs reasonably well for PP? What does a PP have to do? Bark, Snarl, Bite, some control. It isn't magic. You get that on a field in sport, and then proof it in all your home and leisure environments. Kind of like a majority of police dog certs. you certify to show meeting the minimum standards, then you train the dog to be ready for the street, or do both concurrently. 

Can't we all just put on brown robes an sit around a fire and sing Kumbayah and talk about dog training? All of the training piggybacks off of sport! in fact, it is all sport! It all has rules, judges, and criterea. Police dogs have way more repercussions if they fail in real life.


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## Jerry Lyda

OK, we all know what a PSD is, we all know what a sport dog is, the problem is what we think a PPD is. The perfect PPD is what most of you have said. It's the dog you can take with you anywhere and not worry about a bad bite. One that kids can pet as well as other people. This dog as well as the PSD and the sport dog has been trained the same way up to the point to where it is to be used. These types of dogs are trained to have control and to bite. The bite is taught in each venue in prey in the begining. As the dog matures we may take this dog that would be a great dog in any of the venues to do a specific job. The sport dog is about points, but to get these points the dog must behave very well while under control, something we all wish our dogs would do. The PPD must also behave well while under a lot more pressure and stress than the sport dog. Now that other type of PPD is not by any means a PPD. You can't take it anywhere and it can't be touched by anyone much less a child. This PPD is nothing more than a fence dog. Now for the PSD, It has many jobs to do unless it's a single purpose dog. It too must have control but not in the same areas as the sport dog or PPD. I do like control and I believe to much control is NOT enough for all the dog venues.
The differences in all the working dog venues is a great topic. I would hope that this gathering of decoys and working dog people that is being talked about in the other thread does happen. Some of us don't really understand the different working dogs and the different ways they are trained and how they are trained. A gathering of true working dogs and people of many venues would be a first. I look forward to this.


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## Thomas Barriano

Dave Colborn said:


> Why couldn't the dog have sport training and still be a PP? Wouldn't that be a great way to do the foundation work? And don't some sports test dogs reasonably well for PP? What does a PP have to do? Bark, Snarl, Bite, some control. It isn't magic. You get that on a field in sport, and then proof it in all your home and leisure environments. Kind of like a majority of police dog certs. you certify to show meeting the minimum standards, then you train the dog to be ready for the street, or do both concurrently.
> 
> Can't we all just put on brown robes an sit around a fire and sing Kumbayah and talk about dog training? All of the training piggybacks off of sport! in fact, it is all sport! It all has rules, judges, and criterea. Police dogs have way more repercussions if they fail in real life.


Hi Dave,

It all depends on your definition of PP dog. I think dogs trained and titled in most of the bite sports (Schutzhund or
Suit work) make excellent PPD's. I think a lot of untrained dogs will naturally protect their owners with NO training.
My negative opinions of PPD's is based on the internet 
BS artists and blowhards, who talk a lot of Sh*t about their PPD's being "real" even though they've never been tested anywhere by anyone (Harold Lee Robinson for instance).
The other fools who take sh*t about sport dogs being 
"jute junkies" and make fun of PSA car jacking scenarios.


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## Kyle Sprag

"The other fools who take sh*t about sport dogs being 
"jute junkies" and make fun of PSA car jacking scenarios."

I saw that but did you see the Choice pictures of Him Sucking down some Tall Boys while "working" dogs at the "World Championships"...........Priceless!!!!!!!!!! :lol::-k


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## Thomas Barriano

*This Bud's for You*



Kyle Sprag said:


> "The other fools who take sh*t about sport dogs being
> "jute junkies" and make fun of PSA car jacking scenarios."
> 
> I saw that but did you see the Choice pictures of Him Sucking down some Tall Boys while "working" dogs at the "World Championships"...........Priceless!!!!!!!!!! :lol::-k


Hey Kyle,

In most sports clubs, any drinking takes place after training.
Someone "working" a dog during a "World Championship" with a Budweiser in his hand is ludicrous :-(
The only video I've seen of the World Championship is the one of the GSD breaking the long down twice and then going after the judges and having to be blocked with a clip board. NO video, no scores, no list of entries and placements
at a World Championship?
ZERO credibility IMHO


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Not the deadly clipboard block. That will get a PPD everytime. These are little known secrets Thomas. I don't think most people here are ready for that kind of knowledge.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Not the deadly clipboard block. That will get a PPD everytime. These are little known secrets Thomas. I don't think most people here are ready for that kind of knowledge.


Hey Jeff,

I think there is a possible DVD here. "Little known Secrets of a PPD Trainer" $19.95 and if you call within the next 30 minutes we'll throw in "How to be your own Decoy" a $99 value absolutely FREE, but wait we're not done....be one of the first 500 callers and we'll include an old jute coffee bean bag rolled up and tied with tie wraps that is the only piece of equipment you'll need to train with this system.
Operators Standing by call 1 800 K9Sport or
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/www.thisbudsforyou.com


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have seen the clipboard hold off a dog quite effectively. I remember being suprised at the time.

That is some funny shit. I think we should all get together and make a working dog forum goof video.


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## Curtis McHail

The reason most people take stupid stands against PPDs is because people pass off second rate dogs incapable of sport or PS work as dogs that'd "Make great protection dogs for the family!". 

Who's fault is that? The trainer who trains and passes of the POS, the dog vendor they probably got it from, or the person who bought it? All 3 are guilty as charged. I've noticed quite a few people on here who're not interested in a dog who can do real work, PPD OR PSD...and that's sad...they've clearly forgotten that the purpose of sport isn't to win points and compete, it's to select breeding stock and supply police departments with quality animals.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: they've clearly forgotten that the purpose of sport isn't to win points and compete, it's to select breeding stock and supply police departments with quality animals.

When did this happen ?? I should have known this, I guess it wasn't in my historry of the dumbest **** on the planet manual, written by Curtis Mcwhatever.

So the deal is I breed so I can send my best offspring to some of the BIGGEST retards in dog training history ??

There are all kinds of ways to get known in the dog world. One, is to go out and work you ass off and train dogs and gather knowledge, 

two, is you go out and train dogs with a club and go to others to gain knowledge, 

Three is you do both, and it takes years.

Four, you spend some money, and become a breeder. We all know they are the experts, just look at most peoples posts about how far up their ass they are with this dog that is pathetic. Yet, still, the dumbass American dog buyer looks to these people as "experts". 

five, you become a cop. All the wish I were a cop types will flock and follow with their highly shined boots, and their "real" dogs. This is the fastest way to superstardom in the dog world.

Yes, I have been under a lot of misconceptions.

Man, I think I can actually get enough to get published. Fascinating.


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## Curtis McHail

Jeff so what's your take? Why does KNPV exist? -waits- 

Also could've SWORN Schutzhund was supposed to be a breeding tool!

Also what do you think French and Belgian Ring are for? For a bunch of dog guys to drink beer, and nitpick about points? I mean seriously if you don't think the GOAL of dog sports is to create functional service dogs and to prove breeding stock what the heck do you think it is?

Speaking of idiots, the only way I can think to up your IQ would be for you to wipe your @$$ with pages of Socrates' work.

If you're in dogs to win points take up World of Warcraft or whatever kids play these days and be competitive at that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So you are saying that KNPV is a sport, and it is here in the US ??

And you believe that Sch is a breeding tool ?? Maybe you need to look into something other than "Don't judge me, I am too big a pussy personal protection" and actually try and figure out what the **** you are talking about. People like you, and that steve guy that have to have a dog to feel complete crack me up.

I find you amusing. You barely know much about dogs, but want to strut around like you do. I think I met you once at a pet smart. You told me all about my dog.

Quote: If you're in dogs to win points take up World of Warcraft or whatever kids play these days and be competitive at that.

I like WoW just fine. Show us a video of your non sport non point dog working. I might have time to pay attention to it after Christmas.....like you would have the guts to actually post your work. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III

Dave, I can ONLY assume you own a gun. If you target shoot and do sport or combat shooting, many can hit or come close to the ten ring. Can you kill someone under LIVE FIRE conditions, would you? The "test" of firearms shooting skills is what you do when the sh#t hits the fan. Most cops never have to shoot anyone in their LE career. So how do they PROVE their shooting skills?

Providing evidence that your PPD will work offers few options for real world applications. PSA? Right! It's still a dog sport. I see few outlets for PPD"proofing" and the same can be said for sport Sch or Ring dogs...it's still a game of points and decoy taakedowns!

Locking a PPD up with guests is as reasonable as putting a gun in a safe when kids are around.


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## James Downey

Curtis McHail said:


> The reason most people take stupid stands against PPDs is because people pass off second rate dogs incapable of sport or PS work as dogs that'd "Make great protection dogs for the family!".
> 
> Who's fault is that? The trainer who trains and passes of the POS, the dog vendor they probably got it from, or the person who bought it? All 3 are guilty as charged. I've noticed quite a few people on here who're not interested in a dog who can do real work, PPD OR PSD...and that's sad...they've clearly forgotten that the purpose of sport isn't to win points and compete, it's to select breeding stock and supply police departments with quality animals.


I have not forgotten that dog sports were to select breeding stock. I just choose to compete because I like dogs, and I like being competetive. I am not nieve to think that Sch is a good tool to select breeding stock by who wins. Nor do I really care. Nor do I really care where Police get there dogs from. Nor do I care what anyone thinks of it. That being said...I am going to go train my dogs stand in motion.

Nor do I care how good or not good someones PPD is. Hence the name PERSONAL protection dog. And to tell you the truth...I have yet to hear anyone actually using thier PPD to really protective themselves....But I am sure someone here is going to give me an example where thier wonder dog saved them from certain...Nor do I care to hear it.


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## Howard Gaines III

James it makes sense to me. I think in the big picture, as long as we are having fun in the areas of OUR interest, it matters little what others think. The reason I play alone and run with scissors!!! \\/


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## Curtis McHail

Howard? Safest place to keep your gun is on your hip...it's always available, kids can't get it, tada :smile:

Jeff I don't need a dog to complete my life...YOU do...I do what I do for a REASON, you do what you do because you need a hobby. Lonely much? Still dodged the question, what do you view the purpose of sport to be? No good answer? Btw, Jeff, your dogs don't work, they never have, your dogs play. And who said KNPV was in America? I asked what is it for, what it's purpose is, it wasn't a trick question, I know you got nervous thinking it was Geography! Jeff? Are YOU...smarter than a 5th Grader! LMAO!!!

Anyway, back on topic. A good PPD should be PSD caliber and trained to have a bit more control than the average PSD...no need to train ND, no need to have fancy OB work, this is very much "Did he do what you said? Was it in a timely fashion? Okay, good, who cares how you did it"...but being a social even tempered dog doesn't hurt :razz:

-edit- Btw James, good on ya'! IF you want to compete for fun? Knock yourself out, I'm not faulting anybody for that, I think that's what MOST people here in the US do. I'm saying don't forget what the sport is for. For instance, people purposely breeding dogs that excel at sport, but suck dirt at everything else...but that's a whole 'nother discussion of "ethics".


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## Dave Colborn

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dave, I can ONLY assume you own a gun. If you target shoot and do sport or combat shooting, many can hit or come close to the ten ring. Can you kill someone under LIVE FIRE conditions, would you? The "test" of firearms shooting skills is what you do when the sh#t hits the fan. Most cops never have to shoot anyone in their LE career. So how do they PROVE their shooting skills?
> 
> Providing evidence that your PPD will work offers few options for real world applications. PSA? Right! It's still a dog sport. I see few outlets for PPD"proofing" and the same can be said for sport Sch or Ring dogs...it's still a game of points and decoy taakedowns!
> 
> Locking a PPD up with guests is as reasonable as putting a gun in a safe when kids are around.


Don't know if this is all directed at me or not, but here goes.

Bad assumption Howard, I own several guns (making an ass of you and umption), shot yesterday. cleaned guns a second time today. Target shooting yes. People frown on it when you shoot them as they do frown in a like manner when your dog bites them. Targets are a good second choice. I have been under "Live fire conditions" and reacted appropriately, every time, also getting better every time. 

I think you are making the point that sport is as good as PP as target/stress fire courses get cops ready for real encounters... I agree completely that it is a good first step. 

If you don't like PSA, don't compete. I say again, Sport is a good way to make sure your dog has tools to do his job as a PP dog. The foundation. The beginning steps. If he will bite a suit/sleeve on the field, that is much better than the shitter that can't even do that and runs to the car. Not saying sport is the end all, be all to get a PP dog. You still PROOF the dog. I don't need a sport to do that. I draw from REAL experiences where I have seen bites, info from other folks that have had bites, and train accordingly.

I would lock up my dog if guests were there and I thought them might get bit. My dogs eat food, they bite. Think how many accidental bites would be prevented if there was just a little concern about dogs that are trained to bite, being around people. Sometimes, they actually DO BITE.

How do YOU proof a dog?


----------



## James Downey

Curtis McHail said:


> Howard? Safest place to keep your gun is on your hip...it's always available, kids can't get it, tada :smile:
> 
> Jeff I don't need a dog to complete my life...YOU do...I do what I do for a REASON, you do what you do because you need a hobby. Lonely much? Still dodged the question, what do you view the purpose of sport to be? No good answer? Btw, Jeff, your dogs don't work, they never have, your dogs play. And who said KNPV was in America? I asked what is it for, what it's purpose is, it wasn't a trick question, I know you got nervous thinking it was Geography! Jeff? Are YOU...smarter than a 5th Grader! LMAO!!!
> 
> Anyway, back on topic. A good PPD should be PSD caliber and trained to have a bit more control than the average PSD...no need to train ND, no need to have fancy OB work, this is very much "Did he do what you said? Was it in a timely fashion? Okay, good, who cares how you did it"...but being a social even tempered dog doesn't hurt :razz:
> 
> -edit- Btw James, good on ya'! IF you want to compete for fun? Knock yourself out, I'm not faulting anybody for that, I think that's what MOST people here in the US do. I'm saying don't forget what the sport is for. For instance, people purposely breeding dogs that excel at sport, but suck dirt at everything else...but that's a whole 'nother discussion of "ethics".


 
Again Don't really give a shit.


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## Howard Gaines III

Dave Colborn said:


> Don't know if this is all directed at me or not, but here goes.
> 
> Bad assumption Howard, I own several guns (making an ass of you and umption), shot yesterday. ...
> How do YOU proof a dog?


 Okay so you shoot, can't be a bad person. But do you hunt? If so, taking me on a trip to prove those "skills" might be interesting. Learning not to assume too much, educational career was a good teacher!

Proofing my dog is done two ways: single malt Scotch until he can't drive and if the uninvited church thumpers(J.W.) find wings then that's the second. You can't pull the tab on a RedBull in 1.5 seconds [-X


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## Dave Colborn

Howard Gaines III said:


> Okay so you shoot, can't be a bad person. But do you hunt? If so, taking me on a trip to prove those "skills" might be interesting. Learning not to assume too much, educational career was a good teacher!
> 
> Proofing my dog is done two ways: single malt Scotch until he can't drive and if the uninvited church thumpers(J.W.) find wings then that's the second. You can't pull the tab on a RedBull in 1.5 seconds [-X


 
You win, I quit. That has to be the most sound test I have ever heard of. Thank God they invented Red Bull to give a time space reference to make that test work! And bless those JWs!!

When are we hunting? I've got nothing to prove with my shooting, but I would be glad to travel to where you are to learn something new as well!! I'll bring my fat-headed boxer and we can do some training too, just tell me which direction to head!!!


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## Howard Gaines III

Dave Colborn said:


> You win, I quit. That has to be the most sound test I have ever heard of. Thank God they invented Red Bull to give a time space reference to make that test work! And bless those JWs!!
> 
> When are we hunting? I've got nothing to prove with my shooting, but I would be glad to travel to where you are to learn something new as well!! I'll bring my fat-headed boxer and we can do some training too, just tell me which direction to head!!!


 Sounds like a solid deal!! If we don't exchange forum thread info before the holidays, have a great one! Boxers? I did have a Giant Schnauzer that did land and water retrieves and the sport of Schutzhund. Can't get the same effort form these Bouviers!!!!!!!!!![-X


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## Dave Colborn

Howard Gaines III said:


> Sounds like a solid deal!! If we don't exchange forum thread info before the holidays, have a great one! Boxers? I did have a Giant Schnauzer that did land and water retrieves and the sport of Schutzhund. Can't get the same effort form these Bouviers!!!!!!!!!![-X


 
Take a look on our web site. there is a bouvier doing some nice work on a suit!!

http://www.signaturek9.com/Store/Bite-Suits/Signature-K-9-Bite-Suit-Training-Weight


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## Lars Vallin

will fernandez said:


> hmmm...
> 
> Narcotics training-vehicle, building, open area
> 
> tracking-multi surface in urban and rural areas
> 
> suspect search-vehicles, buildings, wooded areas and any other place a human can hide
> 
> Tactical searches-with other officers dressed in what would appear to bite suits and off lead directed searches with the tools of the trade
> 
> Apprehension-active/passive violent criminals without any type of bite presentation that dont want to go to jail--French decoys have nothing on some young crooks that want to go home to Momma
> 
> agility-various jumps, ladder climbs, tunnels and walls
> 
> obedience- for all types of situations
> 
> Yeah I guess sports could be harder....Now PPD"s are super special


Well stated Will
I assume you have a police service dog? yeah on top of all that you dyed add the fact that every shift at work usually presents numerous situation that you have not trained for. Working a dog in real life is the ultimate test of a dog' s genetics and training. Unlike the "fun" sport world. If the dog does not preform to the highest standards in real life the dog or handler gets hurt or killed. In the sport world you simply lose points. Any K9 officer who owes his life to his dog due to flawless performance know what I am talking about.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lars

You need to do an intro and it would help if you did NOT post replies to 2 year old threads


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## Ken Seminatore

is workOh, disagree about that . Trained right with dam good decoy work, many senarios, I think the PP dog will and should do hs work as intended.


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## Joe Agustin

I have not read through everything.....too much to read in short time. However, Protection of the handler and the owner/family is gonna be the same. A good Police dog has a level of sociability. This is a touchy one...many K9 cops think that in order to have a social dog, that dog has to be able to be pet by anyone at anytime. Is my dog capable of this, heck yes, do i allow it, HECK NO. Believe it or not there are people who pose a threat that do not act in a threatening manner or provide any level of prey stimulus. Sometimes the guy that needs to be bit is the one just standing there, quiet, or in the case of my last bite....just lying there hiding. This is a great roll into my next opinion.....I dont work nor have i ever worked or owned a PPD dog, so take this with a grain of salt. Patrol dogs are deployed with the intention of leaving the handler, searching out of sight. This is not, in my head, a protection move....this is a HUNT drive. Im not saying PPD dogs dont have hunt drive, what im saying is that a major difference I would think, would be the desire we k9 cops have for a dog that will leave our side and go look for a bad guy, one who, a lot of times is just hiding. A great police dog can be brought around anyone without a hitch, Ive done plenty of entries with the Swat team with finds and arrests and not one time did my K9 mistake a fully geared operator for a bite suit. I do a lot of civil agitation on decoys that are told to act as passive as possible. I do a lot of table top work and my dog understands my "quiet" command to turn it off. All great qualities a PPD should have......


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## susan tuck

Wow ancient thread resurrected from the dead......or is it a case of the thread that wouldn't die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:lol::lol::lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> Wow ancient thread resurrected from the dead......or is it a case of the thread that wouldn't die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> :lol::lol::lol:



Both. A two-year-old thread ..... 

But anyone new wouldn't know that because the last post date was this month.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I really don't see the need for all this testosterone on a topic that was meant for exchange of ideas..Dogs are different and react differently to training. Some dogs will do live bites even if they have only been sport trained. Any experienced dog trainer will know better than to make general assessment.
Whether PSD OR PPD they all come from the same lines, ur GSD prolly has some mink or fero blood and ur mali prolly has some robbie blood or whatever, whether its a police dog or protection dog. 
There are PSDs that arent the hardest dogs but the handlers just manage them and there are some sport dogs that are really high in drive and confidence they are a pain in the ass or in the field i should say.
All this competition between k9 vs ppd vs swat is baseless. You know a good dog with experience. There are good and bad dogs in every area, breed or place...​


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## Lee H Sternberg

Connie Sutherland said:


> Both. A two-year-old thread .....
> 
> But anyone new wouldn't know that because the last post date was this month.


Refreshing to see old Jeff back, don't you think?:lol:

Probably not!:-D


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## Gillian Schuler

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I really don't see the need for all this testosterone on a topic that was meant for exchange of ideas..Dogs are different and react differently to training. Some dogs will do live bites even if they have only been sport trained. Any experienced dog trainer will know better than to make general assessment.​
> 
> 
> Whether PSD OR PPD they all come from the same lines, ur GSD prolly has some mink or fero blood and ur mali prolly has some robbie blood or whatever, whether its a police dog or protection dog.
> There are PSDs that arent the hardest dogs but the handlers just manage them and there are some sport dogs that are really high in drive and confidence they are a pain in the ass or in the field i should say.​
> All this competition between k9 vs ppd vs swat is baseless. You know a good dog with experience. There are good and bad dogs in every area, breed or place...​


Good post, I agree with you.


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## Dave Colborn

Connie Sutherland said:


> Both. A two-year-old thread .....
> 
> But anyone new wouldn't know that because the last post date was this month.


 
You mean new people don't have the date feature on the individual posts for a reference??


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## Gillian Schuler

Not only that Oluwatobi, most of the dogs bred from experienced, serious breeders end up in Polizei, Armee or Sport hands. The experienced breeder who breeds healthy, serious dogs can work in many venues, i.e. sport, army, police, etc. 

They could also exist as pets because their basic makeup is balanced.


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## Joe Agustin

Well i think a green dog that exhibits characteristics for police, sport or PP can go from green to either of the 3 categories. The major diff is the type of training the dog goes through after being selected.


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## Connie Sutherland

Dave Colborn said:


> You mean new people don't have the date feature on the individual posts for a reference??


They do, but this particularly new person/reopener of 2-year-old threads, Lars Vallin, was a drive-by refuser-to-post-bio type. 

Once it's reopened, and the latest posts have recent dates, folks don't necessarily check every post for a date.


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## Ken Seminatore

This debate has gone on for years and years. The sport dogs are training for trials, points, and a trophy. They are biting the fabric, not really the man incased in fabric. The full sevice police K9 is trained to actually. find and apprehend the bad guy, no question here, that is not a sport. The PPD should be trained to be a deterent and a "warning "dog. In most cases, the PPD would not be sent to attack. There would be problems sending a PPD by a citizen regardless of he situation. Have a impressive dog, with proper training, should be a good deterent.


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## Robley Smith

I started at the front of this necro post, and then skipped to the end once I realised its age. I did however like what Dave said about the dog "waking the gun". I would like the dog to do a little more than that and hinder the bad guy long enough for me to prepare.

On a side note, "waking the gun" makes me think of "exercising the great guns" from the Patrick Obrian novels. Anyone else read Obrian?


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## Lars Vallin

Connie Sutherland said:


> They do, but this particularly new person/reopener of 2-year-old threads, Lars Vallin, was a drive-by refuser-to-post-bio type.
> 
> Once it's reopened, and the latest posts have recent dates, folks don't necessarily check every post for a date.


Connie
I am trying to put a profile up but the edit feature is a bit confusing. Now rather than being nasty to New members you could show character by offering assistance in setting up a profile. But again being kind to New members would take a remarkable human being indeed. The nasty rants and online bullying so prevalent on this site is why New members often prefer to just browse and not post. Tell me Connie since you think you know me so well, you say I am a "type" really? Try to be a force for good not negativity Connie. I don't have time for a petty war please respect that. Learning from each other and bringing out the best in our dogs is why this forum exists, not to belittle New members thinking it impresses people.
It doesn't. I wish nothing but the best for you.


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## susan tuck

Connie Sutherland said:


> They do, but this particularly new person/reopener of 2-year-old threads, Lars Vallin, was a drive-by refuser-to-post-bio type.
> 
> Once it's reopened, and the latest posts have recent dates, folks don't necessarily check every post for a date.


My suggestion would be for you guys to put a time limit or expiration date on threads so that ancient threads like this one can't be commented on beyond a certain point.


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## Tiago Fontes

I disagree.

Recent members browsing the forum could have something to add to an old post. Following your suggestion, new information would not be posted.


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## susan tuck

Tiago Fontes said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Recent members browsing the forum could have something to add to an old post. Following your suggestion, new information would not be posted.


If people have new information then they generally start a new thread, they always have the option of referencing an old thread if they so choose. In fact most forums I belong to have a built in mechanism so that after a specified time period, old threads cannot be posted to.


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## Tiago Fontes

Ok then. I have nothing else to add.


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## Daryl Ehret

susan tuck said:


> My suggestion would be for you guys to put a time limit or expiration date on threads so that ancient threads like this one can't be commented on beyond a certain point.


I disagree. The lockdown on old threads is one of the stupidest changes in recent years, one of the reasons I hardly comment anymore. If you have new information to add or developments regarding a previous discussion, you have to start a new thread on an old topic, and refer to the old thread by link. THEN, hope that commenters of the new thread ACTUALLY read the old information. The search function of the site already tremendously sucks, and now having multiple thread on exact same subjects with exact same thread titles confuses things all the more.

So now, I've basically joined the legions of people that browse this forum with occasional frequency, and rarely waste effort commenting on ANY of the subjects. Of course, some folks actually don't give a rip what I do or don't do. But I just wanted to say, if we can't build on old threads, we can't build the WORTH of their content.


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## susan tuck

Daryl Ehret said:


> I disagree. The lockdown on old threads is one of the stupidest changes in recent years, one of the reasons I hardly comment anymore......


You hardly comment because of the lockdown? What lockdown? Do you mean on another forum?


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## Nicole Stark

Daryl Ehret said:


> I disagree. The lockdown on old threads is one of the stupidest changes in recent years, one of the reasons I hardly comment anymore. If you have new information to add or developments regarding a previous discussion, you have to start a new thread on an old topic, and refer to the old thread by link. THEN, hope that commenters of the new thread ACTUALLY read the old information.


It does appear to allow for additional comment. Not like you cannot read Daryl, but I am putting this here for anyone who might read your response and think old posts cannot be replied to or revived. It can be done but there is a message that appears before you do:

_Old Thread Warning
This Thread is more than 761 days old. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
If you still feel it is necessary to make a new reply, you can still do so though. 
I am aware that this Thread is rather old but I still want to make a reply._

See the following example:

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f23/berry-ii-18597/index2.html#post372217


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## Lee H Sternberg

Lars Vallin said:


> Connie
> I am trying to put a profile up but the edit feature is a bit confusing. Now rather than being nasty to New members you could show character by offering assistance in setting up a profile. But again being kind to New members would take a remarkable human being indeed. The nasty rants and online bullying so prevalent on this site is why New members often prefer to just browse and not post. Tell me Connie since you think you know me so well, you say I am a "type" really? Try to be a force for good not negativity Connie. I don't have time for a petty war please respect that. Learning from each other and bringing out the best in our dogs is why this forum exists, not to belittle New members thinking it impresses people.
> It doesn't. I wish nothing but the best for you.


Are you trying to tell a moderator "why this forum exists"!#-o](*,):grin:


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> My suggestion would be for you guys to put a time limit or expiration date on threads so that ancient threads like this one can't be commented on beyond a certain point.


There is one. 

A person who reopens a very old thread has to agree that s/he realizes how old the thread is and still thinks it's worth making a new contribution. It's a "read this and check that you understand" thing.


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## Connie Sutherland

Lars Vallin said:


> Connie
> I am trying to put a profile up but the edit feature is a bit confusing. Now rather than being nasty to New members you could show character by offering assistance in setting up a profile. But again being kind to New members would take a remarkable human being indeed. The nasty rants and online bullying so prevalent on this site is why New members often prefer to just browse and not post. Tell me Connie since you think you know me so well, you say I am a "type" really? Try to be a force for good not negativity Connie. I don't have time for a petty war please respect that. Learning from each other and bringing out the best in our dogs is why this forum exists, not to belittle New members thinking it impresses people.
> It doesn't. I wish nothing but the best for you.


_
"I am trying to put a profile up but the edit feature is a bit confusing. "_

If you had sent a PM or posted in "Ask a Mod" .... I'm all over those requests for help. Instantly.  

You still have no intro. Please let me know how I can help, because the bio/intro is required here, for everyone who posts.

Thank you!


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## susan tuck

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Are you trying to tell a moderator "why this forum exists"!#-o](*,):grin:


Ironic, no??!!!
:lol:

Connie: I guess "Lars" just doesn't know your "safe" word!!!!!!
:lol::lol::lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Daryl Ehret said:


> I disagree. The lockdown on old threads is one of the stupidest changes in recent years, one of the reasons I hardly comment anymore.




Did you see Nicole's post?

I know it has been repeated now, but I want to make sure everyone knows that it's simple to acknowledge that you see the thread is very old but still wish to contribute.

This was added because of new folks responding with advice to something that would have to have been long resolved, and perhaps asked by someone who is no longer active.

No lockdown.


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## Nicole Stark

I personally prefer/enjoy the revived threads. After being here a while it seems that the conversation has grown a bit stale, the older coversations appear to have more detail and were sustained a bit longer than they are now. From time to time something fresh comes up or a new question is asked but it honestly seems to me that the prevailing focal points tend to be upon being critical rather than constructive, infighting, or responses that are centered around individual experiences that don't appear to mesh real well with the topic at hand.

JMO.


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> _
> "I am trying to put a profile up but the edit feature is a bit confusing. "_
> 
> If you had sent a PM or posted in "Ask a Mod" .... I'm all over those requests for help. Instantly.
> 
> You still have no intro. Please let me know how I can help, because the bio/intro is required here, for everyone who posts.
> 
> Thank you!



I just noticed that you said "set up a profile." I should have said clearly that the only requirement is a post about yourself here:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thanks!


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## Daryl Ehret

I'm sorry, it has changed since I remember, when you couldn't comment at all. Actually, I think the message is a good idea. Since I now don't even know what the debate's about, I'll shut up 



Nicole Stark said:


> It does appear to allow for additional comment. Not like you cannot read Daryl, but I am putting this here for anyone who might read your response and think old posts cannot be replied to or revived. It can be done but there is a message that appears before you do:
> 
> _Old Thread Warning
> This Thread is more than 761 days old. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
> If you still feel it is necessary to make a new reply, you can still do so though.
> I am aware that this Thread is rather old but I still want to make a reply._
> 
> See the following example:
> 
> http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f23/berry-ii-18597/index2.html#post372217


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Daryl Ehret said:


> I'm sorry, it has changed since I remember, when you couldn't comment at all. Actually, I think the message is a good idea. Since I now don't even know what the debate's about, I'll shut up


:lol: :lol: :lol:


_
"Since I now don't even know what the debate's about, I'll shut up."_

Gosh. That never stops me.


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## Nicole Stark

Daryl Ehret said:


> I'm sorry, it has changed since I remember, when you couldn't comment at all. Actually, I think the message is a good idea. Since I now don't even know what the debate's about, I'll shut up


ha ha, one of those days eh?


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## Lars Vallin

Daryl Ehret said:


> I disagree. The lockdown on old threads is one of the stupidest changes in recent years, one of the reasons I hardly comment anymore. If you have new information to add or developments regarding a previous discussion, you have to start a new thread on an old topic, and refer to the old thread by link. THEN, hope that commenters of the new thread ACTUALLY read the old information. The search function of the site already tremendously sucks, and now having multiple thread on exact same subjects with exact same thread titles confuses things all the more.
> 
> So now, I've basically joined the legions of people that browse this forum with occasional frequency, and rarely waste effort commenting on ANY of the subjects. Of course, some folks actually don't give a rip what I do or don't do. But I just wanted to say, if we can't build on old threads, we can't build the WORTH of their content.


Well said Daryl. Well said


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## Lars Vallin

Connie Sutherland said:


> I just noticed that you said "set up a profile." I should have said clearly that the only requirement is a post about yourself here:
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/
> 
> Thanks!


Tried for the umpteenth time to post a bio. I think it took this time.
Thank you for your patience Connie. )


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## susan tuck

Since this thread has been resurrected from the dead, I have yet to find one new post that provides any new information or new developments having to do with the subject of the thread. 

I think resurrecting old threads like this one has more to do with stirring the pot then anything else, especially with a thread like this one.


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## Connie Sutherland

Lars Vallin said:


> Tried for the umpteenth time to post a bio. I think it took this time.



Where? (It needs to be on WDF. :lol: )

I'm looking in the Bio forum:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Click on that link and post there.  It's a simple post. Like the one I am replying to. But in this forum:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/


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## Hunter Allred

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hello Jack
> 
> I think the main difference is in testing. You know how good your sport dog is, by his scores under impartial judges.
> You know if your Police Dog is suitable for the street by certification and on the job performance.
> There is no reliable, respected, accepted certification for
> PPD. There are a few suit sports (PSA, APPDA) that test for
> PP but too many back yard trainers wouldn't trial their dogs.
> It's a lot easier to talk about your bad azz dog then it is to
> actually test him. There may be a few people that actually can train an effective PPD, but IMHO most so called "Personal Protection Dogs" are fear biting shitters who would head for the hills if let off leash.


Someone i train with and the most skilled protection trainer i know once told when people ask for him to test their dog at training he responds with "I can test a dog or I can train a dog. If we are trying to expand performance then we will train. If you truly want to test your dog that means you send him after me in the woods and one of us walks out, and the other comes back bloody.". I suspect most dogs would fail the test.


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## David Winners

My apologies for kicking the dead horse.

IMHO the difference is in how the dog is finished. All venues benefit from a solid dog with a good foundation. The difference in training comes when you begin to train in actual deployment situations. A sport dog is going to need quick outs, and a host of skills that a LE or MIL dog doesn't need. A sport dog needs polish and flair to score points. Hence you need to prepare that dog for that particular deployment. My ED dog needs to work off leash at a distance of 150m, and recall on gunfire, something a sport dog does not need to prepare for. You train how you fight, so you simply look at the particular situations you are most likely to encounter with your dog and prepare accordingly. 

In sport, the dog is encountering a very strict set of challenges with hard fast rules to abide by. In LE and MIL, the dog has to be trained to meet a set of conditions derived from the experience of the handlers and TD. I can't speak for PSD or PP, but the logic stands that you would develop a training plan that best suits the most common situations in which that particular dog would be deployed.

What do you want the dog to do? 

Work backwards and develop a plan that leads you to the desired end state with the dog. So the finished product is different, even if you start with the same dog.

IMO, you couldn't take an IPOIII dog right off the training field to a village in Afghanistan any more than you could take a soldier and throw him into a squad car and expect him to make the right decisions. I would have the basic foundation necessary to operate with a police force during building clearing or a firefight situation, as an IPO dog would have the foundation to bite a bad guy, but that foundation is not enough. There is too great a discrepancy in standard operating procedures and environments.

Every handler and dog needs to train in a manner that resembles the venue in which they will perform, and that training is going to determine how they operate, be it on the sport field, on the street, or outside the wire. Same dog inside, different finished product.


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## Keith Jenkins

Very good post David.


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## Gillian Schuler

Keith Jenkins said:


> Very good post David.


I second that


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## Nicole Stark

David Winners said:


> My apologies for kicking the dead horse.


None necessary. You did an excellent job with your response. I think it's probably one of the best I've ever read on this very topic/debate.


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## Joby Becker

aside from the fact that there are defensive dogs that the typical foundation will not work on, that would kill someone in a home defense situation


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## Garland Whorley

That's the BEST descriptive I read.. Put VERY clear.. Will be using some of your points made..Thanks for sharing


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## David Winners

Joby Becker said:


> aside from the fact that there are defensive dogs that the typical foundation will not work on, that would kill someone in a home defense situation



IMHO your training PLAN would change accordingly, but the principle is the same. In my experience, every dog needs an individual plan. I have almost no experience in protection training, but I see it as learned behavior. The training plan would be as individual as the animal you are training.

I assume that even in cases where the dog needs to work in defense because of lack of prey drive, there is still foundation work done to increase the probability of success when starting work on a sleeve or suit. 

Tradition, to me, only indicates the probability of something working in most situations. I feel that every dog needs what it needs. A good trainer has the tools in their toolbox and the ability to read the dog and understand which tool to use.


----------

