# Linebreeding 3-3 Pike von der Schafbachmühle (GSD)



## Tiago Fontes

I am contemplating such breeding.

Has anyone seen dogs bred like this? Good, bad and ugly, please. 



Thank you


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## Steve Estrada

I think the consensus will be you could have a some very tough dogs but maybe a little difficult to train. Pike is one of my favorite studs, what is the whole breeding as it surely affects the line breeding?


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## Tiago Fontes

Can you elaborate your question? Not sure I understood. 

English is not my first language. 



Thank you


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## Britney Pelletier

As Steve said, that should produce some tough dogs with a lot of natural aggression, but they will most likely not be easy dogs. Personally, I would love a dog linebred that closely on Pike, but not everyone likes that kind of dog. What does the rest of the pedigree look like?


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## Tiago Fontes

Nosey, nosey...lol 

I'm only contemplating... Regardless, I will give you pedigree information by Monday.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago,

There was a pretty good discussion on Pike in the GSD popular stud dog threads. It would be interesting to know if the linebreeding is on Pike daughters or Pike sons and which ones. 

Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret

A partial picture of the pedigree doesn't do any good, especially far back as a 3-3. You need to present all the pedigree, AS WELL AS describe the breeding pair.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm hoping that Tiago does the entire pedigree and please just keep it as a pedigree discussion and not the judgmental whys and what fors regarding the sire and/or dam.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm hoping that Tiago does the entire pedigree and please just keep it as a pedigree discussion and not the judgmental whys and what fors regarding the sire and/or dam.
> 
> Terrasita


I was hoping you would not post on this one LOL...j/k..

why would you NOT want him to post the whys and the what for's, if he is familiar with the dogs....just curious...that seems just as important as the pedigree to me..


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> I was hoping you would not post on this one LOL...j/k..
> 
> why would you NOT want him to post the whys and the what for's, if he is familiar with the dogs....just curious...that seems just as important as the pedigree to me..


You miss the point. I hope Tiago posts whatever there is. I just don't think it should turn into "red flags" as to whether the breeder should be breeding or whether the bitch is titled or not. Personally, I don't know how dominant Pike was in terms of linebreeding so it would be interesting to know sire, dam, grandparents in term of what they are and what they have produced. But I can see why he asked as a general question if anyone had done a close line breeding on him and what the good, bad and ugly were. You get questions like that all the time--how tight can you breed on a certain dog without it getting ugly. But it can also depend on who you use. Tight with some lines maybe better than tight with others.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You miss the point. I hope Tiago posts whatever there is. I just don't think it should turn into "red flags" as to whether the breeder should be breeding or whether the bitch is titled or not. Personally, I don't know how dominant Pike was in terms of linebreeding so it would be interesting to know sire, dam, grandparents in term of what they are and what they have produced. But I can see why he asked as a general question if anyone had done a close line breeding on him and what the good, bad and ugly were. You get questions like that all the time--how tight can you breed on a certain dog without it getting ugly. But it can also depend on who you use. Tight with some lines maybe better than tight with others.
> 
> Terrasita


ah ok...


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## Daryl Ehret

The breeding pair reveals more than half the picture, the pedigree less so. A fragment of a fragment just isn't telling enough IMO, regardless of how familiar you are with Pike bloodlines. Especially when, as in this case, you don't know what else they've been merged with.

But anyway, I've seen some dogs that came down through Pike, many good, and one I really liked a lot. If I looked only at the pedigree of the one I really liked (and not the dog), I wouldn't have given that dog a second thought, really. And to add, that particular dog's full brother was very different, much less noteworthy.

I realize there would be more uniformity in a linebreeding, but just to emphasize how divergent they can become in only three generations, even when of identical pedigrees. You could probably show numerous examples of progeny linebred 3-3 on _so-and-so _who have little at all in common with each other.

_Selection_, is what makes the difference.


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## Tiago Fontes

Thanks to all who responded. 

My mind is made up, after consulting a good friend of mine who has done similar breedings. 



Regards


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Ahhhh, come on, you're not going to share?

T


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## ann schnerre

tiago--after asking the question on the net, it would be good to share the contemplated breeding, whether it took place or not and the reasons for the above.

as a Pike fan, i'm interested. as a member of the forum i feel you could/should share more information. especially as you asked for opinions.


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## Tiago Fontes

Hi, 

I am contemplating such breeding from a pedigree perspective. The breeding has not happened yet, nor will it occur within the next 9 months. In other words, I was doing some homework before making a final decision.
I have a young male who is a promising dog, his hips, elbows and spine x-rays are all good. He is a grandson of Pike, through his dam. Insofar, I like everything about him and the only fault I can find (until now) is that he isnt as easy to work with, when compared to other GSDs. I also have a Tiekerhook female and obedience with her has been much much easier. 

In terms of drive, natural aggression, environmental soundness and nerves, the Pike grandson is probably the best dog I've seen. 

With this in mind, I have been looking for a female in order to tighten up the Pike side of the pedigree. I found her and will be finalizing the purchase soon. She is 3.5 years old, hips, elbows and spine are all good. She is titled. 


Regards


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## Stefan Schaub

is breeding so easy? line breeding 3-3 Pike and you get great dogs?? many people have try that before and they have get all the same sh.. ! pike have made over 100 studs and did not produce so well. he was not able to produce his typ. he produce only well with great females like Forma and queena karthago and some other. 

two donkeys can not produce a race horse


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## Tiago Fontes

Right.

Thanks for your opinion,

Tiago


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## Gillian Schuler

"two donkeys can not produce a race horse"

This is the reason that I search around for a serious breeder. I leave it up to him to know which two dogs to pair and from which bloodlines.

For my part, I'm looking for a healthy, (HD /ED /spinal problem free) dog. The handlers I have trained with in Switzerland and Germany showed me that there are a number of dogs of this category around. None of the dogs I have trained with have been "sleeping tablets". Protection work has been above average in most cases.

With a dog of this quality, it's up to the handler how much he is prepared to work to take him to the top.

There are extremely good breeders in Europe - here I'm only talking GSD - whether from RSV 2000 or SV and, considering the dogs exported to the USA there must be some good breeders there too, breeding from them.


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## Tiago Fontes

*"This is the reason that I search around for a serious breeder. I leave it up to him to know which two dogs to pair and from which bloodlines."*

Lost me a little bit here. You wait for the breeder to tell you which dogs to mate? Or you buy a dog from a breeding he chose to do?


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## Gillian Schuler

Sorr, I am not a breeder and didn't know that you were one.


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## Tiago Fontes

I'm not. 

Just like good dogs and if possible produce a few good ones, occasionally.


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## Gillian Schuler

You aren't a breeder but you occasionally produce good dogs??


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## Tiago Fontes

Seriously want me to reply to you? 

I like good dogs and happen to have some I and a few other people consider breeding material. If I choose to make a breeding, thats my business. Rest assured the pups wont be sold to the public. 

I make my money differently.


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## Gillian Schuler

Sorry, my intention wasn't to rattle your cage but, after your repy, would say you don't have to apologise for not offerng the litters to the general public.

Rest assured, I would never think of buying one of them!!


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## Tiago Fontes

Ok man. 
Are you experienced with dogs off of Pike? 


Thanks


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## Gillian Schuler

No, should I be? I explained to you that I leave the matings to the experienced breeders.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> is breeding so easy? line breeding 3-3 Pike and you get great dogs?? many people have try that before and they have get all the same sh.. ! pike have made over 100 studs and did not produce so well. he was not able to produce his typ. he produce only well with great females like Forma and queena karthago and some other.
> 
> two donkeys can not produce a race horse


Stefan,

For those of us that don't know call or shortened names, can you provide the registered names of the great bitches you refer to. I think I know which Karthago bitch you are speaking of. Thanks for the input. That is the threshold issue of linebreeding--is the dog dominant enough to reproduce himself with linebreeding. Most GSD pedigrees I look at, there's very little linebreeding. You have a sprinkling of popular stud dogs and their dam lines. People look at the pedigree and say you should get this and you should get that with the studs in generation 4/5 but that assumes they are dominant. 

Terrasita


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## Stefan Schaub

If you see today all of these great pedigrees these dogs must bite your body in 2 peaces but they do not. if you have a great female search a great male , check his pedigree and if it fits do it. but there is the next problem, how want someone breed if he or she is not able to know what a great dog is and i do not mean points. people in knpv in netherlands are smarter with that, they give nothing for the line but all for the work ability. only bad thing you get so many different type of looking dogs, in size, color and structure.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> If you see today all of these great pedigrees these dogs must bite your body in 2 peaces but they do not. if you have a great female search a great male , check his pedigree and if it fits do it. but there is the next problem, how want someone breed if he or she is not able to know what a great dog is and i do not mean points. people in knpv in netherlands are smarter with that, they give nothing for the line but all for the work ability. only bad thing you get so many different type of looking dogs, in size, color and structure.


I have yet to see a discussion of who the great males/females [phenotype + genotype] are. I would love to see a breeder's roundtable discussion on dogs/bitches that were dominant for certain traits and reproduced them in their progeny and with linebreeding. Its like a well kept secret. I'm curious in terms of how much you rely on video or watching a dog worked vs. working that dog yourself and then deciding on whether he/she is worth breeding.

Terrasita


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## Stefan Schaub

you can see a lot, but you know more from training by your self. success comes from moving forward and not from still standing. males out of my kennel have make 2011 more than 120 studs!!! why? because i try to get extreme males for extreme females.


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## Don Turnipseed

Stefan Schaub said:


> If you see today all of these great pedigrees these dogs must bite your body in 2 peaces but they do not. if you have a great female search a great male , check his pedigree and if it fits do it. but there is the next problem, how want someone breed if he or she is not able to know what a great dog is and i do not mean points. people in knpv in netherlands are smarter with that, they give nothing for the line but all for the work ability. only bad thing you get so many different type of looking dogs, in size, color and structure.


Stefan, I like your style. I am curiouis about the last statement you made here about the lack consistency in about all areas but real ability. Concentrating on super hard dog to super hard dog, how closely bred do the dogs end up and for how long can you sustain enough super hard dogs within a line to avoid bringing in new super hard dogs to the line?


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## Stefan Schaub

what do you mean can not follow. do not forget i am german


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> what do you mean can not follow. do not forget i am german



I think he means, can you get and keep good dogs without line breeding or inbreeding? I think you have said that with KNPV its a matter of breeding two great dogs together--not the line or pedigree?

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

I just assumed the dogs were line bred....to some extent. Maybe not. If they are, I was wondering if there were not enough suitable progeny thrown to sustain more of a closed line. Or, has linebreeding/inbreeding got nothing to do with the selection? The general lack of overall consistency is what peaked my interest. Possibly that is what Stefan meant by not breeding for the line.....which I took to mean point dogs.


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## Stefan Schaub

i do a lot inbreeding, but the parents must be that what i want. i have done inbreeding 2-1 and it works.
i also would breed dad with daughter but both must have it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think you raise a good point--the bitch. She must bring as much to the table as the dog. In a lot of cases I don't think that is happening.

Terrasita


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## Tiago Fontes

And how would you start producing good bitches?


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## Stefan Schaub

out of other great bitches.


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## Tiago Fontes

I agree... And to build prepotency, linebreeding and inbreeding are necessary.


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## Don Turnipseed

So, back to my question. Are there not nough really super strong dogs out of the line breedings to maintain more of a closed breeding program. To achieve better visual consistency. It has been my experience that when a line has been bred on a performance basis over a period opf time, rather than typey to typey as they do in the show world, the visual is the first indication that the "whole dog" is becoming more consistent in all aspects.


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## Tiago Fontes

Yes, there are theories pointing in the direction you have just described. 

IMO, if you're running a linebred PERFORMANCE program, your dogs should resemble (physically) the dog you are linebreeding on. In other words, you should choose the best performers and within those, the ones resembling the most the dog you are linebreeding on. 


Regards


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## Don Turnipseed

MMMmmm. Tiago, I would say the best dog to the best regardless of looks. Eventually, if kept tightly line bred, they will take on a consistency of their own. May take years, but, when they start looking alike you can bet other traits are doing the same. There may also be a very noticeable division where half the litter all looks alike, the other half are also clones of each other but noticeably different from the first half.


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## Stefan Schaub

the biggest problem in breed is that mistakes come recessive back. for example long coat. since generation we breed with normal coat but all time we find in litters long coat puppies. that is the same with work abilities and all other things. if i see a great dog and i have the idea to use him i check his pedigree , is the pedigree free of " mistakes" i use him, if not i do not use him. some people have try to mix show line with working line at the end they have not been good enough and have look like sh.. .


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## Tiago Fontes

I dont believe in mixing show lines and working lines, for the record.


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## Stefan Schaub

may be there are some good dogs with show line blood in the pedigree but why get a risk to bring all the bad things back


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## Terrasita Cuffie

But where in GSDs do we have tightly linebred dogs? There is no agreement regarding sires like Fero and his worth to the breed. But without Fero, you don't have Timmy/Troll or Yoschy. Or is Askia really the dog to line breed on or Mona? Are males like Yoschy and Nick H dominant or is it based on clicks with certain bitch lines.

Terrasita


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## Stefan Schaub

in the past there was a lot of great females,Desch Adeleg comes out Of Ernst Weinbergblick,he was out of the great Carmen Haus pixner and the mother goes back out of strong dreibirkenhain females , Quaste vom Ankenruet also great female with great parents. Gimmi Abfuhr,mother from Tim Abfuhr,askia for sure,mona also, britta schiffgarten mother from Olex de Valsory and some more. good example is the j litter talka marda.both parents have really strong mother lines!!!


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## ann schnerre

stefan--thanks!! i love hearing about great motherlines as i believe they have more to do with pups' ultimate outcome as the male.

i agree with Terrisita--the GSD dog community is WAY too "hush-hush" about lines, breedings, progeny. do we have something to hide? or is everyone afraid of pissing someone off? transparency, ppl!! we do the breed a disservice by not admitting to our dog's weaknesses. and no dog is perfect. rant over, lol.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=450116

Regarding the J litter Talka Marda, what makes the motherlines great. Is it that these bitches were great themselves [in the work] or the males they bring in through their pedigree and their ability to reproduce them? The J litter sire is out of a Timmy daughter--Boccia vonder bosen Nachrbaschaft, Sch 3, FH. The J litter dam is out of Troll son--Aly. Given the breeding interest in Javir, this is an interesting pedigree to look at.

Terrasita


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## Stefan Schaub

Boccia was really great, not in points but as a real working dog,endless drive, real hard and good social behavior. Quaste on of the best females in top sport,have produce with different males great. her mother the same. you see what i mean with strong mother lines.if i use something with Quaste blood than i would take Hektor, he is out of Quaste and Olix Karthago son of Queena Karthago. Olix is also father of Tyson Schiffslache, half brother to my foundation female Orla. They go back on Connie Koernerplatz and Gimmi Abfuhr.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I think for some odd reason the GSD breed attracts people who want semi docile dogs that can just do some decent work. I look at some kennels and they have medium to low drive dogs as stud dogs. They breed one litter and believe that one of the puppies must be used for breeding.
In my humble opinion someone new to dog breeding may not have the experience to select a really hard stud dog. Such people will do a better service to the breed if they buy an adult female from a decent breeder and breed her to a proven male say angsbacken's rosso, J litter boys, Erri blatenskeho zamku, terro staatsmacht, etc,. Instead of trying to play genius and select a male based on the pedigree alone.
There are many decent czech, german and slovakian kennels that offer adult females for sale. Eurosport and vikar come to mind.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Stefan Schaub said:


> Boccia was really great, not in points but as a real working dog,endless drive, real hard and good social behavior. Quaste on of the best females in top sport,have produce with different males great. her mother the same. you see what i mean with strong mother lines.if i use something with Quaste blood than i would take Hektor, he is out of Quaste and Olix Karthago son of Queena Karthago. Olix is also father of Tyson Schiffslache, half brother to my foundation female Orla. They go back on Connie Koernerplatz and Gimmi Abfuhr.


 Stefan, you are one of the GSD breeders i look up to, i hope i'm lucky to get a dog from your breeding in the near future. I have a question though, if i get an adult female, good drives, stable nerves and i have a good litter how would you select the female you want to keep especially in the very good litters where all the puppies are biting like alligators. 
For a novice breeder, what will be your advice on selecting a female for breeding considering that you have to sell the remaining puppies by 8 weeks since you can't keep them all.
I will appreciate your reply sir.


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## Gillian Schuler

ann schnerre said:


> stefan--thanks!! i love hearing about great motherlines as i believe they have more to do with pups' ultimate outcome as the male.
> 
> i agree with Terrisita--the GSD dog community is WAY too "hush-hush" about lines, breedings, progeny. do we have something to hide? or is everyone afraid of pissing someone off? transparency, ppl!! we do the breed a disservice by not admitting to our dog's weaknesses. and no dog is perfect. rant over, lol.


I have always assumed that Mendel's Laws still apply. In which case, the female and male are responsible for "roughly" 50-50%.

If you mate a strong male to a strong bitch, then the question of the female being more important to the litter's outcome maybe doesn't apply? Genetically she can't pass on more than the male. The only way I could see that a female could negatively influence the litter is if she is genetically unsound and by this "physically" influences the litter by her bad reactions to the environment.

I agree though that many breeders try to "overcome" their female's shortcomings by mating to a "strong" male.

Here it is up to the male's owner to reject just as the female's owner has the right to seek out the best male.


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## Don Turnipseed

It is about equal, Gillian. The mother does the raising, so the pups learn from the female and many thing similarities they see are genetic. It is sad that breeders purposefuuly breed any one dog to another to cover weaknesses in one or the other.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is about equal, Gillian. The mother does the raising, so the pups learn from the female and many thing similarities they see are genetic. It is sad that breeders purposefuuly breed any one dog to another to cover weaknesses in one or the other.


Don...Why is that sad?

No dog is perfect, they all have faults, of course you are going to try to pick a mate that may carry dominant genotype for things you may want to improve on in the other mate...

unless you are saying it is sad that people are breeding dogs that have such strong weaknesses, that you feel they should not be bred...then I get it...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> Boccia was really great, not in points but as a real working dog,endless drive, real hard and good social behavior. Quaste on of the best females in top sport,have produce with different males great. her mother the same. you see what i mean with strong mother lines.if i use something with Quaste blood than i would take Hektor, he is out of Quaste and Olix Karthago son of Queena Karthago. Olix is also father of Tyson Schiffslache, half brother to my foundation female Orla. They go back on Connie Koernerplatz and Gimmi Abfuhr.


Stephan, thanks for taking the time to respond and with such great detail. I think there is a tendency to breed to titled dogs without really knowing the dog or what's in those first three generations. Often you see the known dogs in the 4th and 5th generation. I'm not sure what is meant by "docile" but stable, socially reliable and without handler aggression are/were hallmarks of the breed. When you are looking at the dogs' ability to produce, how much of that is based on the progeny's ability to title or do well at the regional and BSP level? 

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have always assumed that Mendel's Laws still apply. In which case, the female and male are responsible for "roughly" 50-50%.
> 
> If you mate a strong male to a strong bitch, then the question of the female being more important to the litter's outcome maybe doesn't apply? Genetically she can't pass on more than the male. The only way I could see that a female could negatively influence the litter is if she is genetically unsound and by this "physically" influences the litter by her bad reactions to the environment.
> 
> I agree though that many breeders try to "overcome" their female's shortcomings by mating to a "strong" male.
> 
> Here it is up to the male's owner to reject just as the female's owner has the right to seek out the best male.


genetically yes--she only passes on 50% of her genes. however, she does have a huge behavioral influence in the first weeks of their lives. there have been studies (if you really want me to i can look them up and post them) on the influence that dam's have on their offspring, specifically in the horse/cattle industry. and the studies have shown that when a high-anxiety/human-fearful female raises young, that overrides any genetic hoped-for calming influence from the male. 

so basically, you have the right idea. what hurts any breed is when someone breeds a female for her genetics but discounts her own personality. does that make sense? hope so.....


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## Stefan Schaub

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Stefan, you are one of the GSD breeders i look up to, i hope i'm lucky to get a dog from your breeding in the near future. I have a question though, if i get an adult female, good drives, stable nerves and i have a good litter how would you select the female you want to keep especially in the very good litters where all the puppies are biting like alligators.
> For a novice breeder, what will be your advice on selecting a female for breeding considering that you have to sell the remaining puppies by 8 weeks since you can't keep them all.
> I will appreciate your reply sir.


i have try to keep 2 female puppys out of all my litters, sometimes the wright one sometimes the wrong one. at the end maybe 5 or 6 have been good enough for my breeding program. for example g-litter i kept Gracia and Gina gave Germany to a Junior Handler who trained with me. with 12 weeks i hit my self that i gave her away.she was like her mom, gracia was like mom and dad and gina was high drive modern sport dog.in the end i think Gracia have produce more than great and Germany now Kennel Haus Ming the same.Gina was not able to produce her mother line. 
i think it is a thing of luck!!


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> i have try to keep 2 female puppys out of all my litters, sometimes the wright one sometimes the wrong one. at the end maybe 5 or 6 have been good enough for my breeding program. for example g-litter i kept Gracia and Gina gave Germany to a Junior Handler who trained with me. with 12 weeks i hit my self that i gave her away.she was like her mom, gracia was like mom and dad and gina was high drive modern sport dog.in the end i think Gracia have produce more than great and Germany now Kennel Haus Ming the same.Gina was not able to produce her mother line.
> i think it is a thing of luck!!


 
What is the type of dog you're looking to produce?



Regards


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## Gillian Schuler

ann schnerre said:


> genetically yes--she only passes on 50% of her genes. however, she does have a huge behavioral influence in the first weeks of their lives. there have been studies (if you really want me to i can look them up and post them) on the influence that dam's have on their offspring, specifically in the horse/cattle industry. and the studies have shown that when a high-anxiety/human-fearful female raises young, that overrides any genetic hoped-for calming influence from the male.


That would really interest me that a high-anxiety / human-fearful femal raises young, that overrides any genetic "hoped-for" calming influecnce from the male.

Yes, but I was assuming the female and the male were not so and thereby the above does not apply?


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## ann schnerre

Gillian Schuler said:


> That would really interest me that a high-anxiety / human-fearful femal raises young, that overrides any genetic "hoped-for" calming influecnce from the male.
> 
> Yes, but I was assuming the female and the male were not so and thereby the above does not apply?


one would hope it were not so, but realistically, when some people are breeding <whatever>, they will take a chance on breeding a female who may not have the best personality (or male for that matter) just for the genetics the animal carries. and if the female is VERY well-bred but "nervy" shall we say, she's still bred but greatly influences her offspring in how to react to their environment. and the nerviness may not be genetic--it could be how she was raised. regardless the results would be the same--she DOES influence her offspring in a rather major way.

in the livestock business here in the US, this has mostly stopped because the offspring are so difficult. the horse business not so much, and i believe the dog business not so much. especially when so many pups are sold without the buyer personally evaluating both the male and the bitch.

oh-just thought of this as well--if the breeder owns both bitch and dog, there's no one saying "i won't breed to that". i love looking at various breeders websites, but i believe the advertisements about 10% of the time. there aren't many breeders i would buy a pup from sight unseen based only on ped. anyway, this is way OT.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> i have try to keep 2 female puppys out of all my litters, sometimes the wright one sometimes the wrong one. at the end maybe 5 or 6 have been good enough for my breeding program. for example g-litter i kept Gracia and Gina gave Germany to a Junior Handler who trained with me. with 12 weeks i hit my self that i gave her away.she was like her mom, gracia was like mom and dad and gina was high drive modern sport dog.in the end i think Gracia have produce more than great and Germany now Kennel Haus Ming the same.Gina was not able to produce her mother line.
> i think it is a thing of luck!!


 
Stefan, 

In looking at Gracia, Gina and Germany, at 12 weeks, you could determine who had the characteristics similar to the sire and dam. What test at 12 weeks did you do that indicated that Gina was the least like the sire/dam and would be more of the modern high drive sport dog? Is 12 weeks the age you can characterize your puppies for work? Second, has it held true that the more sport like dog in your lines doesn't produce their genetics or what you want? Also, in the G litter, what was the sire like--sport or more like the mother line? I am really interested in selecting for working traits and then how later they reproduce. We're back to breeding the line vs. selecting the dogs based on how they work. 

Terrasita


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## Stefan Schaub

with 12 weeks i saw that i have make a mistake.how they turn out in the end and what way they go may be with 15 month. with the males the same.all good but for different things. i think out of this litter only one was not titled,the rest was titled and 6 have had a breed survey


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Stefan Schaub said:


> with 12 weeks i saw that i have make a mistake.how they turn out in the end and what way they go may be with 15 month. with the males the same.all good but for different things. i think out of this litter only one was not titled,the rest was titled and 6 have had a breed survey


Thanks a lot Stefan,
So Germany and Gracia are basically equally good. What did u use in picking gracia and gina? I looked at this video of xavier v d staatsmact and i see you test for prey drive early and desire to keep the object. Do you just select the most determined puppies or u have other tests like environmental stress?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLJqL6NUaJM&list=UUsvLgeDTJdyBp6OU1gv__1w&index=25&feature=plcp

Also for the adult females, apart from gripping during IPO bitework, how do you test for stable nerves, environmental sureness, civil/social aggression , fight drive etc? What exactly made Gracia and germany better than gina?


----------



## Joby Becker

Stefan...did I see correctly that you used Bill Kulla's dog, Kway for a breeding...

Did you have any personal knowledge of ASKO?

I have heard that on the field he was a machine, but in the kennel and off the field, he was a basket case...hiding in the back, with his hackles up...

is that true or false info? just curious...


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Asko was one of the top producer from the last years. he was not easy, not social. outside he was real dominant. a lot of people want a strong dog,high dominance and best no one else can touch him and must protect the family.

but no one can life with the time where this kind of dog is growing,this dominance is not a sign of being strong it have grow out of being not sure with things. most of these kind of dogs get early sold because we can not live with this, but we can live with the end product.

asko for sure have produce kind of these dogs, at the beginning you hate them for his behavior and at the end you love him. i would do it again.

kway was in my club in germany, real bad behavior when he was young,but all time great in work.he gets older and his behavior better.bill was able to fix all and was successful with him.he was only sold because his owner quit dog sport. when i was 2007 here for a seminar i worked a son of him, for me one of the best young dogs of the last years, worked him again 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXt8M3sissU 
.this dog in germany have made for sure 50 studs.


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## Rick Mattox

"I have heard that on the field he was a machine, but in the kennel and off the field, he was a basket case...hiding in the back, with his hackles up..."

It's comment's like these that cause issues. Not true and you should talk with those that have personal knowledge of the dog


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## Terrasita Cuffie

This is the type of information we need to keep open dialogue about. If nothing else, if you know, then you know that you have to wait for the dog mature and you know the range of behaviors he ill go through. Most often, all you hear about is the sport field dog. What about his character off the field. Stefan, can you elaborate on the young dog vs. the mature dog [age 3-5]? Were these dogs relible off the field with maturity. How much is fear based behavior when young as opposed to dominance. By dominance, do you mean handler aggression issues or issues dealing with strangers. What aspects improve. Stefan has mentioned before that there are dogs through Asko's line that aren't social. It would be interesting to know which dogs those are and how do you balance that in breeding. 

Terrasita


----------



## susan tuck

Stefan Schaub said:


> kway was in my club in germany, real bad behavior when he was young,but all time great in work.he gets older and his behavior better.bill was able to fix all and was successful with him.he was only sold because his owner quit dog sport. when i was 2007 here for a seminar i worked a son of him, for me one of the best young dogs of the last years, worked him again 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXt8M3sissU
> .this dog in germany have made for sure 50 studs.


 
Jett v Triton (dog in the video) was Mike Sheiber's dog. Mike was a member of this forum who died not long ago.

Stefan: I have an Asko grandson, through Janoch vd Grube Waldecke and out of an Andy vd Lemper Heide bitch. I would agree with your description of Asko progeny.


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## Joby Becker

Rick Mattox said:


> "I have heard that on the field he was a machine, but in the kennel and off the field, he was a basket case...hiding in the back, with his hackles up..."
> 
> It's comment's like these that cause issues. Not true and you should talk with those that have personal knowledge of the dog


I thought that is what I was trying to do... 

Do you have any personal knowledge of the dog to share?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is the type of information we need to keep open dialogue about. If nothing else, if you know, then you know that you have to wait for the dog mature and you know the range of behaviors he *will *go through. Most often, all you hear about is the sport field dog. What about his character off the field. Stefan, can you elaborate on the young dog vs. the mature dog [age 3-5]? Were these dogs *reliable* off the field with maturity. How much is fear based behavior when young as opposed to dominance. By dominance, do you mean handler aggression issues or issues dealing with strangers. What aspects improve. Stefan has mentioned before that there are dogs through Asko's line that aren't social. It would be interesting to know which dogs those are and how do you balance that in breeding.
> 
> Terrasita


I think everyone is afraid of the dog getting a bad reputation but its better for the breed and breeding if the dog's complete character is known/discussed. I've met a couple of Kway offspring and tested one on sheep at 16 weeks. The older dog was certainly reliable in public as I was able to interact with him off the field and watch him and interact with him in a public place. The young puppy didn't exhibit any obvious issues at that age. The older dog might have been one of Jett's littermates. 


Terrasita


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## herman williams

very interesting discussion , and good to see there are some people with open mind as to linebreeding ,Ive done many and dont meet many open minds , stephan , can you do breedings that close in germany ,as far as the original topic , Ive seen close linebreeding on pike bring brown dogs , but never sure if it was the doubling up on pike that coused it


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## ann schnerre

herman, i'm sure we're glad to have your input here, but you are required to post a profile in the "member bios" section of the forum...http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/


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## Rick Mattox

Joby, unfortunately that is not what you did. I only have personal knowledge of Asko offspring. Although I can get you into contact with 3 people I can think of off hand that had personal knowledge of the dog. Having been around him in his home setting. Never any comments other than he was a very confident dog.

As far as some of his offspring not being social,. I guess I would have to find out what exactly they mean by UNSOCIAL. If they mean aloof and not caring to be messed with by others, other than their handler, I have seen this. I also don't think this is something that needs to be "balanced in breeding." These are supposed to be GSD's not Goldens. I have never seen any fearfulness, shyness... but with as many breedings as he had I'm sure that you could find one or two in there.

Since this is a topic on breeding and Pike, if the Asko discussion wants to further itself someone can start a thread on him.


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## herman williams

thanks anne , I will take care of it


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## Donna DeYoung

50/50 genetics - male/female - it is not that simple. I'm used to horse breeding. x-factor. inheritability factors. oftentimes if the mares are super good, they matter WAY more than the stallion. I have one of those. My friend said I could breed her to a donkey and I'd still get something good. another person has mediocre mares and it doesn't matter how good the stallion is ... they will never be as good.

so take a really well-bred female, tight in her lines, that produces consistently (dog or horse). shouldn't matter what you breed her to, she should produce herself. that is what defines a really good female. of course it helps if you breed up.

I always thought if you wanted a certain type of male dog (you are fixated on male A for example) - you don't buy his puppy, you buy his brother from the same mother. or you breed to HIS father. go up. its a crap shoot thinking if you breed to him w/ your female you will get what he is. only if your female already is what he is.

there ARE males out there that have strong heritability factors (they throw the traits they have) but I think you have to search for them and know very well what females they were bred to (weed out what the female contributed vs the male).

In horses, people are often attracted to the male/sex traits - ie the more massive musculature, arched neck, impressive looks brought on by testosterone. I tell them take away the testosterone and then invision the horse - because thats' what you'll get if you end up w/ a female. In my case, my mare already looks like a stallion, so no problem there. w dogs I would say take away the testosterone and still be sure you like the dog. make sure you like the mother, too.

Also, seems breeders tend to keep females from females from females etc. their female lines tend to stay w/ the kennel. but they will introduce new males. To me this means the female lines are stonger and more than 50%...

is it just me (thinking females are more important) or is it because I'm female? LOL.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Donna DeYoung said:


> 50/50 genetics - male/female - it is not that simple. I'm used to horse breeding. x-factor. inheritability factors. oftentimes if the mares are super good, they matter WAY more than the stallion. I have one of those. My friend said I could breed her to a donkey and I'd still get something good. another person has mediocre mares and it doesn't matter how good the stallion is ... they will never be as good.
> 
> so take a really well-bred female, tight in her lines, that produces consistently (dog or horse). shouldn't matter what you breed her to, she should produce herself. that is what defines a really good female. of course it helps if you breed up.
> 
> I always thought if you wanted a certain type of male dog (you are fixated on male A for example) - you don't buy his puppy, you buy his brother from the same mother. or you breed to HIS father. go up. its a crap shoot thinking if you breed to him w/ your female you will get what he is. only if your female already is what he is.
> 
> there ARE males out there that have strong heritability factors (they throw the traits they have) but I think you have to search for them and know very well what females they were bred to (weed out what the female contributed vs the male).
> 
> In horses, people are often attracted to the male/sex traits - ie the more massive musculature, arched neck, impressive looks brought on by testosterone. I tell them take away the testosterone and then invision the horse - because thats' what you'll get if you end up w/ a female. In my case, my mare already looks like a stallion, so no problem there. w dogs I would say take away the testosterone and still be sure you like the dog. make sure you like the mother, too.
> 
> Also, seems breeders tend to keep females from females from females etc. their female lines tend to stay w/ the kennel. but they will introduce new males. To me this means the female lines are stonger and more than 50%...
> 
> is it just me (thinking females are more important) or is it because I'm female? LOL.


I think you bring up some very solid points. I have had this same discussion with a friend of mine. She always chose to breed to the son arguing that she wanted to bring in his dam line. My choice is the father that produced the son. However, if I'm choosing between two males, I'm more interested in the male that has a solid mother--both in phenotype and genotype.

Terrasita


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## maggie fraser

Donna DeYoung said:


> 50/50 genetics - male/female - it is not that simple. I'm used to horse breeding. x-factor. inheritability factors. oftentimes if the mares are super good, they matter WAY more than the stallion. I have one of those. My friend said I could breed her to a donkey and I'd still get something good. another person has mediocre mares and it doesn't matter how good the stallion is ... they will never be as good.
> 
> so take a really well-bred female, tight in her lines, that produces consistently (dog or horse). shouldn't matter what you breed her to, she should produce herself. that is what defines a really good female. of course it helps if you breed up.
> 
> I always thought if you wanted a certain type of male dog (you are fixated on male A for example) - you don't buy his puppy, you buy his brother from the same mother. or you breed to HIS father. go up. its a crap shoot thinking if you breed to him w/ your female you will get what he is. only if your female already is what he is.
> 
> there ARE males out there that have strong heritability factors (they throw the traits they have) but I think you have to search for them and know very well what females they were bred to (weed out what the female contributed vs the male).
> 
> In horses, people are often attracted to the male/sex traits - ie the more massive musculature, arched neck, impressive looks brought on by testosterone. I tell them take away the testosterone and then invision the horse - because thats' what you'll get if you end up w/ a female. In my case, my mare already looks like a stallion, so no problem there. w dogs I would say take away the testosterone and still be sure you like the dog. make sure you like the mother, too.
> 
> Also, seems breeders tend to keep females from females from females etc. their female lines tend to stay w/ the kennel. but they will introduce new males. To me this means the female lines are stonger and more than 50%...
> 
> is it just me (thinking females are more important) or is it because I'm female? LOL.


Interesting post, what about if they are black though,,, does the same still apply ?


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## Daryl Ehret

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> However, if I'm choosing between two males, I'm more interested in the male that has a solid mother--both in phenotype and genotype.
> 
> Terrasita


That really doesn't make sense. The genotype comes from BOTH parents, Y chromosome to male offspring being the only exclusive exception.


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## andreas broqvist

But are you not just saying that a female that trows her self is a good breeding bitsh. Its the same as a male that throws himself, only difrens is that you have way more use of a male becaus you can use him many many times more.

Its exactly the same with males as you describes the females. Some males throws themself realy hard and produces good dogs with anything. The only way a female wuld be more worth is becaus she have the pups for 8-10 weeks after they are born.


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## Donna DeYoung

<<if I'm choosing between two males, I'm more interested in the male that has a solid mother--both in phenotype and genotype>>

me too, exactly. also if he has a solid father. and siblings.

<<<Interesting post, what about if they are black though,,, does the same still apply ?>>

? in the horses I breed, Andalusians, black was culled and not favored. then it came back in fashion. the choices were slim to none of finding a good black. so blacks descended from blacks are not a good investment imo. However, black in horse is recessive. so its possible to get black from non-black parents and that horse is usually better quality than long line of blacks. I don't know about black in GSD. probably similar. if breeding for color, something has to give.

<<That really doesn't make sense. The genotype comes from BOTH parents, Y chromosome to male offspring being the only exclusive exception.>>

exactly. in racehorses there is proven "x factor" where certain traits are sex-linked and only passed down via female line. Secretariat's big heart was one of those. his studs weren't good but his daughters were and daughters of his sons... also, as I discussed, it depends on WHICH female to WHICH male you breed - as the female could be stronger genetically vs the male, and vice versa. Strong genetically relates to heritability - the ability to throw what you are. not every dog's visible traits are solid genetically. also most traits we think of in working dogs are not simple mendelian (white x white = white, red x white = pink or whatever), most traits are polygenic - it's not easy as easy as 50/50 which is why you need to know trends in the breeding results.

<<<only difrens is that you have way more use of a male becaus you can use him many many times more.>>>

more is not necessarily better.


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## andreas broqvist

Yes it is if you have a dog that trows himself/herself wery hard and have many wery useful ltraits. 
That i what dog AND hores breeding are about. Producing as many good ore greatd dogs/horses as you can on every breeding.


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## maggie fraser

Donna said ;_ D<<<Interesting post, what about if they are black though,,, does the same still apply ?>>_

_? in the horses I breed, Andalusians, black was culled and not favored. then it came back in fashion. the choices were slim to none of finding a good black. so blacks descended from blacks are not a good investment imo. However, black in horse is recessive. so its possible to get black from non-black parents and that horse is usually better quality than long line of blacks. I don't know about black in GSD. probably similar. if breeding for color, something has to give.onna said;_ 

My post was a little tongue in cheek to be truthful... I recall you asking about 'rare' black gsds, and breeding horses for black colour not so long ago, (and if the blacks were previously culled, that's where I am getting confused), and you are expressing 'authority' on a serious discussion on a Pike breeding. Apologies if I have you confused with someone else. It was still a very interesting post however.


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## maggie fraser

andreas broqvist said:


> Yes it is if you have a dog that trows himself/herself wery hard and have many wery useful ltraits.
> That i what dog AND hores breeding are about. Producing as many good ore greatd dogs/horses as you can on every breeding.


LMAO hores ! Sorry !


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## Connie Sutherland

ann schnerre said:


> herman, i'm sure we're glad to have your input here, but *you are required to post a profile in the "member bios" section of the forum*...http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/



Thanks!


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## Daryl Ehret

Yeah, I just misunderstood what was being said about "male from a solid mother in phenotype and genotype". I get it now, and wasn't what I originally thought.

A little easier to show than describe, the colored squares of this pedigree are the only possible contributers of the x chromosome IF the subject (of the ped) _is a male_.


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## Daryl Ehret

Donna DeYoung said:


> exactly. in racehorses there is proven "x factor" where certain traits are sex-linked and only passed down via female line. Secretariat's big heart was one of those. his studs weren't good but his daughters were and daughters of his sons...


You probably mean _sons of his daughters._


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## ann schnerre

maggie fraser said:


> LMAO hores ! Sorry !


hehehe--=;:-D i'm with ya maggie:-\"


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## Nicole Stark

ann schnerre said:


> hehehe--=;:-D i'm with ya maggie:-\"


Same here.

I really don't like to laugh at other peoples expense but I genuinely get a kick out of his spelling. His best IMO was "cuntry", although for some reason Jeff made point of giving him the correct spelling of country. As a matter of fact he may have done that with Andreas more than once. I certainly thought it was amusing and can only hope that when I do extend my lame attempts to communicate in a foreign language that it's equally ridiculous and inappropriate.

Oh, and I offer my apologies in advance for making an irrelevant comment on this thread.


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## ann schnerre

andreas--please don't get your feelings hurt over <our> teasing about your english, heaven knows if it's Not english i don't get it..

you really do well, and your input is appreciated, so keep it coming, ok? please?


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## ann schnerre

as far as black GSD--they've been , IMO, rather nasty, light-boned, coyote-looking dogs. lately (past 8 years or so), breeders have been putting some bone on them, usually through DDR blood seems like, but i'm not into them, so haven't followed much.

but at least they're looking better. 

re Pike--i like to see him in a pedigree. he seems to bring sharpness in a good way to the breeding. take him anyday.


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## brad robert

I know Pike was known for hardness etc but how many off spring went to BSP etc I think asko or troll v malinda kick his ass progeny wise but they were probably bred more .JMO:smile:


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## Tiago Fontes

I'd rather see Pike offspring getting certified in KNPV routines, rather than seeing them in the BSP. 
In KNPV there are a couple of Pike bred dogs... not many, since GSDs are rare in KNPV, but they are out there. 

As for my personal experience, the Pike dogs I've been around, can be described as having real active aggression, high prey, high hunt drives, possessive and strong nerves aswell as beautiful conformation. They are very solid, IMO. 

The downside is: they are stubborn and you must be wise handling them. 


JMO


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## brad robert

All good points Tiago! I like to see them rated in knpv too but there just isnt many and it seems that most GSD studs are rated on there progeny at BSP or other similiar shows.

Interesting comments on his progeny though.I think it was stefan earlier who said Pike really didnt produce that well or throw his type very consistantly.


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## herman williams

tiago , IMO the stubbornness in the dog you are talking about isnot to blame on pike , but on the RAKKER side of that pedigree , as we now more RAKKER offspring to be stubborn and not the best for obedience , the bitework is exeptionally good whithout a doubt , so interesting dogs for breeding , but have to have the right females


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## brad robert

Rakker seemed to be a solid producer as well.I Like his breeding very much.


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## herman williams

sure but the offspring I know are knot known for pleasing the handler too much , I was told by a judge that knew him personally that rakker himself was , but thats second hand knowledge


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## andreas broqvist

Ann 
No problem Im not afended  If I was I probobly wuld not write. But I do not care that mutsh. Im kind of almost as bad in swedish so its good that i can amuse somone 

I culd use google ore word to check it but why


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## Tiago Fontes

herman williams said:


> tiago , IMO the stubbornness in the dog you are talking about isnot to blame on pike , but on the RAKKER side of that pedigree , as we now more RAKKER offspring to be stubborn and not the best for obedience , the bitework is exeptionally good whithout a doubt , so interesting dogs for breeding , but have to have the right females


 
Regardless, this dog will be used as a patrol dog for security guards... He is EXCELLENT in every type of scenario he's been tested and still young. 

The bitework is as you said, excellent, hard with tremendous bites and serious. He has restored my faith in GSDs.


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## Tiago Fontes

brad robert said:


> All good points Tiago! I like to see them rated in knpv too but there just isnt many and it seems that most GSD studs are rated on there progeny at BSP or other similiar shows.
> 
> Interesting comments on his progeny though.I think it was stefan earlier who said Pike really didnt produce that well or throw his type very consistantly.


 
He throws consistently enough for me and thats all that matters. Im happy with what I got.


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## Stefan Schaub

where can i see imos pedigree


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## Don Turnipseed

Bottom line...no body knows what will be produced until the cross is done. Even then, few will know if they aren't in the right hands.


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## Edward Egan

I found a video on youtube that I think is pike. *Pike von der Schafbachmühle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY992WzzCqY*

*Very impressive.*


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## Tiago Fontes

Yes, thats him.


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## Gillian Schuler

ann schnerre said:


> stefan--thanks!! i love hearing about great motherlines as i believe they have more to do with pups' ultimate outcome as the male.
> 
> i agree with Terrisita--the GSD dog community is WAY too "hush-hush" about lines, breedings, progeny. do we have something to hide? or is everyone afraid of pissing someone off? transparency, ppl!! we do the breed a disservice by not admitting to our dog's weaknesses. and no dog is perfect. rant over, lol.


Ann, I am at a loss to understand your comment on the motherlines. Accordîng to genetics the ratio is 50-50 male - female = give or take a bit.

Whatever the mother genetically brings to the table, she will not be able to influence in the litter????


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## Don Turnipseed

One perspective on the idea that the females carry most of the weight in breeding is because most breeders have females and stud them out to titled males. It is human nature for them to want to believe the females, they own, produced the dogs more so than the titled males they bred them to. This belief probably originally came from the breeders. So why do the males dominate if the females are always the cat's meow?


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## Rick Mattox

Don as for females....... Even if you go with the 50/50 ratio, the mother is going to play a bigger role in how the pups turn out. That's because the 50/50 ratio is only concern with the genetics. The pups learn much from the bitch during whelp. Hopefully it's a good bitch that will pass on good qualities to her young. If the breeder is keeping, what he considers a quality female and consistently getting quality offspring. No matter what stud he mates her with. Then he is correct, she is a quality bitch.


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## Gillian Schuler

As I see it, the genetics play the first role in the roughly 50:50 turnout.

If the 50% that the female brings to the mating is not so good, then whatever she can bring to the pups will be negative?

However, if her 50% is extremely good, then the pups will turn out good in any case??

Please confirm!!


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## andreas broqvist

Ofacus NOT! If that was true they you only nead a good female and everything is hunky Dory


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## Don Turnipseed

Rick Mattox said:


> Don as for females....... Even if you go with the 50/50 ratio, the mother is going to play a bigger role in how the pups turn out. That's because the 50/50 ratio is only concern with the genetics. The pups learn much from the bitch during whelp. Hopefully it's a good bitch that will pass on good qualities to her young. If the breeder is keeping, what he considers a quality female and consistently getting quality offspring. No matter what stud he mates her with. Then he is correct, she is a quality bitch.


That's right Rick, but any difference is not because she contibutes more than half of the genetics. I look at the individual dog and it is usually the male. The 13 gen pedigree I recently put up is going to be done based on the 11 gen female. She is gamey as can be, workable, and built like a greyhound. The male is the offspring of Griff(outcross) and an 11 gen bitch of my line. Have no idea what the male pup will be as he just turned 5 weeks......but what I wanted was new genetics and I wanted good ones....I picked a male to do that.


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## Don Turnipseed

The theory of the female adding so much more to a breeding has to be questioned, I would think, when one looks at the animals in the wild. The males fight for contol and breeding rights in every species I can think of off hand.....then that one male passes his genetics on to all the females. Looks like mother nature has a different viewpoint when it comes to survival of the fittest, strongest.....or put more simply....the best.


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## Meena Moitra

is it possible that beyond the 50% genetic contribution of the bitch, one must also factor in the invitro experience as well as whelping box time?
The mother's health during pregnancy, her temperament (not just her genetic temperament but the one that developed), her diet, and her environment will all influence outcome. And what happens when the pups have been born? The father has no say at all...
Just saying.
Happy New Year


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## ann schnerre

Gillian Schuler said:


> Ann, I am at a loss to understand your comment on the motherlines. Accordîng to genetics the ratio is 50-50 male - female = give or take a bit.
> 
> Whatever the mother genetically brings to the table, she will not be able to influence in the litter????


of course the sire/dam each bring 50% to the offspring's genotype (genetic heritage). that's simple math and i don't (can't) dispute that.

what i am trying to say is that a dam's personality WILL influence her offspring for life, regardless of genetics.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

herman williams said:


> tiago , IMO the stubbornness in the dog you are talking about isnot to blame on pike , but on the RAKKER side of that pedigree , as we now more RAKKER offspring to be stubborn and not the best for obedience , the bitework is exeptionally good whithout a doubt , so interesting dogs for breeding , but have to have the right females


 
Herby,

Just for clarification, are you saying that you don't attribute stubborness to Pike but to a dog in his pedigree--Rakker? Which dog [registered name] is Rakker? Or are you guys referring to another dog?

Terrasita


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## brad robert

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Herby,
> 
> Just for clarification, are you saying that you don't attribute stubborness to Pike but to a dog in his pedigree--Rakker? Which dog [registered name] is Rakker? Or are you guys referring to another dog?
> 
> Terrasita


 Thank god someone is getting back on track im sick of this 50/50 crap seriously its been done to death this is about pike isnt it??? Terresita Rakker was sired by gento vom haus larwin and his dam is Tosca also a knpv bitch its a super knpv pedigree for a GSD


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## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> Thank god someone is getting back on track im sick of this 50/50 crap seriously its been done to death this is about pike isnt it??? Terresita Rakker was sired by gento vom haus larwin and his dam is Tosca also a knpv bitch its a super knpv pedigree for a GSD


Brad, (on anyone else) do you have a link to the pedigree. I've seen references to Gento before. And yes, would like to keep on track with Pike and GSD breeding.

Terrasita


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## jamie lind

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Brad, (on anyone else) do you have a link to the pedigree. I've seen references to Gento before. And yes, would like to keep on track with Pike and GSD breeding.
> 
> Terrasita


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=120839


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## herman williams

just saying from what I see in pike and most of the offspring ive seen and owned there was willingness to work and please , as for most rakker offspring , I see a different type of dog , but hard strong dogs without a doubt


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## Tiago Fontes

Hi Herman, 

You owned Pike offspring? If so, what can you tell me about the dogs. Good, bad and ugly, please.


----------



## herman williams

owned a bitch(direct Pike daughter) , great drives high workability , bad hips , end of story , but in no way stubborn or difficult


----------



## Ajay Singh

I think Pike was a very high drive dog with a lot of handler hardness. In the videos of his work that I have watched, he appears to be a bit unsettled and has a tough time thinking while in drive. I think the video of his performance at the BSP is more revealing of this trait. I saw some offsprings of Pike and the majority of them were better looking than Pike, still had the drive and the hardness, extremely possessive (sometimes dangerously possessive), medium built, early maturing, and showed the same inability to think while they were in drive. I agree with Stefan that Pike should have produced more top quality dogs because he was bred to a lot of good quality bitches. 

Your question regarding 3-3 inbreeding on Pike is interesting because it gets asked a lot. People these days have access to quick computers and go through the databases in a fraction of seconds but there is more to dog breeding than just looking for common denominators. When you evaluate the pedigree, it is important to realize that the dogs in early generations have more impact on the puppies. Therefore, pay more attention to the parents and the grand parents before you start looking at the 3rd, fourth, and the fifth generations. The only sure way you can carry the blood from 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation is if the dogs in the 1st and the 2nd generations have the desirable traits of the dogs further back in the pedigree. It is also important that when you line breed on a certain dog, especially up close, that not only the dog you are inbreeding on is good but the littermates were good as well.

The contribution of the mother, the mother's mother, and the other females in the pedigree is of utmost importance. When you evaluate a mother pay more attention to the fighting drive of the mother. Tough mothers produce tough kids - simple as that! Also, the males who have tough mothers tend to produce better. 

Sometimes I wonder about the applicability of the lessons we have learned from breeding horses on dogs because we are breeding for totally different traits. But it is a food for the thought...

Ajay Singh


----------



## Randy Allen

So people look for Pike in lines for what?.......for what reason? 
Agression? Commitment? Prey? Sensitivity? Structure?
What?

Rakker or Gento sound much more interesting to look at.


Disclaimer; I know zilch about breeding.


----------



## todd pavlus

Doesn't someone in Australia still have straws collected from Gento??


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Ajay Singh said:


> I think Pike was a very high drive dog with a lot of handler hardness. In the videos of his work that I have watched, he appears to be a bit unsettled and has a tough time thinking while in drive. I think the video of his performance at the BSP is more revealing of this trait. I saw some offsprings of Pike and the majority of them were better looking than Pike, still had the drive and the hardness, extremely possessive (sometimes dangerously possessive), medium built, early maturing, and showed the same inability to think while they were in drive. I agree with Stefan that Pike should have produced more top quality dogs because he was bred to a lot of good quality bitches.
> 
> Your question regarding 3-3 inbreeding on Pike is interesting because it gets asked a lot. People these days have access to quick computers and go through the databases in a fraction of seconds but there is more to dog breeding than just looking for common denominators. When you evaluate the pedigree, it is important to realize that the dogs in early generations have more impact on the puppies. Therefore, pay more attention to the parents and the grand parents before you start looking at the 3rd, fourth, and the fifth generations. The only sure way you can carry the blood from 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation is if the dogs in the 1st and the 2nd generations have the desirable traits of the dogs further back in the pedigree. It is also important that when you line breed on a certain dog, especially up close, that not only the dog you are inbreeding on is good but the littermates were good as well.
> 
> The contribution of the mother, the mother's mother, and the other females in the pedigree is of utmost importance. When you evaluate a mother pay more attention to the fighting drive of the mother. Tough mothers produce tough kids - simple as that! Also, the males who have tough mothers tend to produce better.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder about the applicability of the lessons we have learned from breeding horses on dogs because we are breeding for totally different traits. But it is a food for the thought...
> 
> Ajay Singh


Ajay, I would be curious to know what your basing this info on. Is it first hand observation? I have noticed a very strong correlation to really high fight females and extremely poor reproduction. Maybe 1 litter if they are bred at 18 mo.....after that they are done. Just to much testosterone. As mature adults, they even resemble the males more ie. large heads etc. Very few of the real head banging females make good producers....so, what would be the point?


----------



## brad robert

todd pavlus said:


> Doesn't someone in Australia still have straws collected from Gento??


Von Forrell does i believe but you would have to confirm that with them but they did do a breeding with gento here years back.A friend had one of the pups he sold it on said the dog wasnt his type? Others got hold of the dog and raved about it.


----------



## brad robert

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ajay, I would be curious to know what your basing this info on. Is it first hand observation? I have noticed a very strong correlation to really high fight females and extremely poor reproduction. Maybe 1 litter if they are bred at 18 mo.....after that they are done. Just to much testosterone. As mature adults, they even resemble the males more ie. large heads etc. Very few of the real head banging females make good producers....so, what would be the point?


Don, way to much of a generalisation especially between different breeds.

This is about pike rememeber lol! The underlining theme that keeps coming thru is that pike didnt reproduce himself often.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

brad robert said:


> Don, way to much of a generalisation especially between different breeds.
> 
> This is about pike rememeber lol! The underlining theme that keeps coming thru is that pike didnt reproduce himself often.


I don't believe the question was directed to you Brad. And, in this respect dogs are dogs.


----------



## Ajay Singh

Don said," Ajay, I would be curious to know what your basing this info on. Is it first hand observation? I have noticed a very strong correlation to really high fight females and extremely poor reproduction. Maybe 1 litter if they are bred at 18 mo.....after that they are done. Just to much testosterone. As mature adults, they even resemble the males more ie. large heads etc. Very few of the real head banging females make good producers....so, what would be the point?"

Don:

I don't agree with your observation. I have been breeding dogs for more than 25 years, and I have noticed that even the most dominant ones submit, flirt, and invite the males during the 4 to 5 days of breeding.

Ajay Singh


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't believe the question was directed to you Brad. And, in this respect dogs are dogs.


Well, you assume a high fight bitch is a doggy bitch with a lot of testosterone. First is that high fight in relationship to animals or other dogs? What they term high fight here maybe completely different. I can think of one kennel with quality bitches that have secondary sex characteristics and type. The issue here is to have a bitch of as good of woring quality as we demand in the males. So given Ajay's reiteration of the importance of what the bitch brings to the table, anyone care to comment on Pike's mother line?


T


----------



## Ajay Singh

Pike's mother - Gipsy was an Ork daughter, and I have heard that Ork was a big dog with strong character and fighting drive. Gipsy's lineage on the mother side goes back to one week dog that I know of - Canto von der Weinerau. In all honesty I did not see weak dogs out of Pike, just dogs who had a conflict with the handler and could not hold everything together when they were in drive. Tracking was one of the weak points of Pike's progeny.

Ajay Singh


----------



## brad robert

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't believe the question was directed to you Brad. And, in this respect dogs are dogs.


 
Dogs are not dogs thats absurd so chinese crested is the same as pitbull your comment is absurd!

Good working bitches "can" produce good working dogs period.

Look at pits don the very best bitches usually produce extremely hard dogs geez i wonder why.

Im not going to debate this the thread is about Pike


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Ajay Singh said:


> Don said," Ajay, I would be curious to know what your basing this info on. Is it first hand observation? I have noticed a very strong correlation to really high fight females and extremely poor reproduction. Maybe 1 litter if they are bred at 18 mo.....after that they are done. Just to much testosterone. As mature adults, they even resemble the males more ie. large heads etc. Very few of the real head banging females make good producers....so, what would be the point?"
> 
> Don:
> 
> I don't agree with your observation. I have been breeding dogs for more than 25 years, and I have noticed that even the most dominant ones submit, flirt, and invite the males during the 4 to 5 days of breeding.
> 
> Ajay Singh


Ajay, I have been breeding dogs for a bit and I don't see what you are seeing. I also don't understand what you are saying in the second sentence. I look at the pups early on and the females that can go toe to to with the males have always ended up as poor producers when matured. Which makes me wonder, from what you are seeing is....how long do these high fight bitches you are referring to produce.


----------



## Ajay Singh

Don. you go ahead and believe what you want to. Thank you.

Ajay Singh


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ajay, I have been breeding dogs for a bit and I don't see what you are seeing. I also don't understand what you are saying in the second sentence. I look at the pups early on and the females that can go toe to to with the males have always ended up as poor producers when matured. Which makes me wonder, from what you are seeing is....how long do these high fight bitches you are referring to produce.


 
Don,

You probably breed a bitch more than a working bitch would be bred. What do you mean by go toe to toe with a male in YOUR dogs. If a bitch is trained and competes, she probably wouldn't have but 2-3 litters in her lifetime. What do you count as poor producers--numbers? The issue here is a type of quality. 

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Ajay Singh said:


> Pike's mother - Gipsy was an Ork daughter, and I have heard that Ork was a big dog with strong character and fighting drive. Gipsy's lineage on the mother side goes back to one week dog that I know of - Canto von der Weinerau. In all honesty I did not see weak dogs out of Pike, just dogs who had a conflict with the handler and could not hold everything together when they were in drive. Tracking was one of the weak points of Pike's progeny.
> 
> Ajay Singh


But do we know anything about Gipsy's working ability and that of her mother's?


Terrasita


----------



## brad robert

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But do we know anything about Gipsy's working ability and that of her mother's?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


 The fact that she was titled and so was every bitch in her line is nice but thats only half the story.It seems to go back on some old blood.

Looking at Pike on PDB he has over 600 progeny didnt realise he was bred that much at first.

Ajay is right the general thoughts are that pike produced a LOT of drives in his offspring and down the line he has influenced the drive levels but the dogs especially his sons and daugters were considered a little crazy and not clear headed in drive or had a tendancy to go that way making handling difficult.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

So, if you look at pike's pedigree, what would you expect regarding producing ability? Was his sire or dam a great producer. Are the dogs further back in the pedigree known for certain heritable traits? Are there other dogs known in the pedigree for drives, yet unclear. Is Pike representative of any family of dogs behind him in terms of working traits?

T


----------



## brad robert

The fact that people are still breeding on him 3-4-5 generations down the line says it but he is only one dog in hopefully a pedigree of great dogs and he wasnt a piece of crap by all reports

http://www.vomhauslarkey.com/arc.html here is a breeding with pike and dasty but the whole pedigree has alot of nice dogs.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Ajay Singh said:


> I think Pike was a very high drive dog with a lot of handler hardness. In the videos of his work that I have watched, he appears to be a bit unsettled and has a tough time thinking while in drive. I think the video of his performance at the BSP is more revealing of this trait. I saw some offsprings of Pike and the majority of them were better looking than Pike, still had the drive and the hardness, extremely possessive (sometimes dangerously possessive), medium built, early maturing, and showed the same inability to think while they were in drive. I agree with Stefan that Pike should have produced more top quality dogs because he was bred to a lot of good quality bitches.
> 
> Your question regarding 3-3 inbreeding on Pike is interesting because it gets asked a lot. People these days have access to quick computers and go through the databases in a fraction of seconds but there is more to dog breeding than just looking for common denominators. When you evaluate the pedigree, it is important to realize that the dogs in early generations have more impact on the puppies. Therefore, pay more attention to the parents and the grand parents before you start looking at the 3rd, fourth, and the fifth generations. The only sure way you can carry the blood from 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation is if the dogs in the 1st and the 2nd generations have the desirable traits of the dogs further back in the pedigree. It is also important that when you line breed on a certain dog, especially up close, that not only the dog you are inbreeding on is good but the littermates were good as well.
> 
> The contribution of the mother, the mother's mother, and the other females in the pedigree is of utmost importance. When you evaluate a mother pay more attention to the fighting drive of the mother. Tough mothers produce tough kids - simple as that! Also, the males who have tough mothers tend to produce better.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder about the applicability of the lessons we have learned from breeding horses on dogs because we are breeding for totally different traits. But it is a food for the thought...
> 
> Ajay Singh


 
Thank you for your post. 

I posted this question, because I wanted people's opinions.However, I have done the exact home work you described when referring to the dogs upclose in the pedigree. In so far, the dogs closer in the pedigree show the aggression, possessiveness, hardness and drives I am looking for. Coincidently, they have Pike blood inside. After discussing this topic with a friend of mine, who has obtained good results from a similar breeding, my mind has been made. 


Best regards and Happy New Year


----------



## Tiago Fontes

brad robert said:


> The fact that people are still breeding on him 3-4-5 generations down the line says it but he is only one dog in hopefully a pedigree of great dogs and he wasnt a piece of crap by all reports
> 
> http://www.vomhauslarkey.com/arc.html here is a breeding with pike and dasty but the whole pedigree has alot of nice dogs.


 
The female Im looking to breed into is a grandaughter of Kobalt v Haus Ming (on the sire's side) and grandaughter of Dasty vd Berger Hochburg on the dam's side, which makes her great grandaughter of Pike. 

The male is a grandson of Pike on his dam's side and grandson of Vito Vom Waldwinkel on the sire's side.



Regards


----------



## James Larkey

brad robert said:


> The fact that people are still breeding on him 3-4-5 generations down the line says it but he is only one dog in hopefully a pedigree of great dogs and he wasnt a piece of crap by all reports
> 
> http://www.vomhauslarkey.com/arc.html here is a breeding with pike and dasty but the whole pedigree has alot of nice dogs.


:smile:


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## Tiago Fontes

Hi James, 

Would like to check your videos, but its not letting me, because they are private. 


Regards


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## James Larkey

brad robert said:


> The fact that people are still breeding on him 3-4-5 generations down the line says it but he is only one dog in hopefully a pedigree of great dogs and *he wasnt a piece of crap by all reports*
> 
> http://www.vomhauslarkey.com/arc.html here is a breeding with pike and dasty but the whole pedigree has alot of nice dogs.


I asked Koos Haasing's opinion on Pike and my dogs pedigree while at one of his seminars. He felt felt the best lines were through the mother and did not really seem to comment much on the fathers line except that Pike was a sharp, nervy dog in his opinion.

Personally, I love to see Pike in a pedigree. Some of the best dogs I have seen go back to Pike..... in addition to many other nice dogs as Brad stated.


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## James Larkey

Tiago Fontes said:


> Hi James,
> 
> Would like to check your videos, but its not letting me, because they are private.
> 
> 
> Regards


This is my only video of Arc available for viewing right now. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyVz1bry0l8
Arc is an exceptional dog to watch work. He is only nine months old in this video and it is his first time on a helper.

I have tons of video from other seminars and club training. I will try to get some of them uploaded and posted to this thread.


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## brad robert

James Larkey said:


> I asked Koos Haasing's opinion on Pike and my dogs pedigree while at one of his seminars. He felt felt the best lines were through the mother and did not really seem to comment much on the fathers line except that Pike was a sharp, nervy dog in his opinion.
> 
> Personally, I love to see Pike in a pedigree. Some of the best dogs I have seen go back to Pike..... in addition to many other nice dogs as Brad stated.


No wonder he liked the bottom side it has nick in it and he is a nick fanboy, but for good reason.


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## Joby Becker

James Larkey said:


> I asked Koos Haasing's opinion on Pike and my dogs pedigree while at one of his seminars. He felt felt the best lines were through the mother and did not really seem to comment much on the fathers line except that Pike was a sharp, nervy dog in his opinion.
> 
> Personally, I love to see Pike in a pedigree. Some of the best dogs I have seen go back to Pike..... in addition to many other nice dogs as Brad stated.


Does sharp=nervy?

I always thought Koos appreciated sharp dogs, not nervy ones though...


----------



## James Larkey

James Larkey said:


> I asked Koos Haasing's opinion on Pike and my dogs pedigree while at one of his seminars. He felt felt the best lines were through the mother and did not really seem to comment much on the fathers line except that Pike was a sharp, nervy dog in his opinion.
> 
> Personally, I love to see Pike in a pedigree. Some of the best dogs I have seen go back to Pike..... in addition to many other nice dogs as Brad stated.
> 
> 
> brad robert said:
> 
> 
> 
> *No wonder he liked the bottom side it has nick in it and he is a nick fanboy, but for good reason.*
Click to expand...

LOL - Yes, Koos is a Nick fanboy, but, he had more to say about Funny v.h. Ming and some of the other females in her line. Koos likes to see strong females of high working quality in his breedings as much or more than the males.




Joby Becker said:


> Does sharp=nervy?
> 
> I always thought Koos appreciated sharp dogs, not nervy ones though...


Does sharp=nervy? Not necessarily.... And I believe there is a whole other thread devoted to that very discussion. Without going down that road, all I meant to convey was that Koos did not comment on Pike in a favorable manner. However, Koos seemed very impressed by the working quality of my dog, Arc, despite his comment on Pike.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

James Larkey said:


> LOL - Yes, Koos is a Nick fanboy, but, he had more to say about Funny v.h. Ming and some of the other females in her line. Koos likes to see strong females of high working quality in his breedings as much or more than the males.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does sharp=nervy? Not necessarily.... And I believe there is a whole other thread devoted to that very discussion. Without going down that road, all I meant to convey was that Koos did not comment on Pike in a favorable manner. However, Koos seemed very impressed by the working quality of my dog, Arc, despite his comment on Pike.


 
Let's just say I also have a Tiekerhook bitch (out of Opal von der roderburg and Nadja Van Tiekerhook) and she's approximately the same age as the Pike male... She's 11 months old. There's absolutely no comparison between the two of them in terms of drive, aggression and grip. The Pike dog gives her 10-0. 

I have stopped hearing what breeders say about stud dogs they dont use... and started seeing the dogs myself to form an opinion. From what I have seen in regards to Pike dogs, they are intense, strong, solid dogs. 


Regards


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Just to add:

I have heard a lot of crap talk regarding Fero and Koos seems to have him in high regards. However, I havent seen (personally) a linebred Fero dog that I would be in awe with. 

Just my opinion


----------



## brad robert

Tiago Fontes said:


> Let's just say I also have a Tiekerhook bitch (out of Opal von der roderburg and Nadja Van Tiekerhook) and she's approximately the same age as the Pike male... She's 11 months old. There's absolutely no comparison between the two of them in terms of drive, aggression and grip. The Pike dog gives her 10-0.
> 
> I have stopped hearing what breeders say about stud dogs they dont use... and started seeing the dogs myself to form an opinion. From what I have seen in regards to Pike dogs, they are intense, strong, solid dogs.
> 
> 
> Regards


Tiago i hear ya about breeders it happens over here so much its a joke i have been scouting looking for a new dog or pup and B.S flows.

In the case of comparing your pike boy to your tiekerhook dog could it be just a case of the best and worst from the different breedings.Or have you seen other strong pike dogs?


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Well, 

If its the case of best to worst in the respective breedings, I dont know. All I know is that I specifically asked for a certain type of dog and was told that the female would be it. She's still young, so, who knows...We'll see what time brings. 

I have followed a specific family of Pike dogs and observed the dogs possessing the same traits. To be honest, I have seen 5 dogs with Pike in them and none was weak. However, Im sure there are weak Pike dogs out there. Its the same as other stud dogs... They all have produced crappers here and there. 


Regards


----------



## Daryl Ehret

Koos has explained that Fero was not without fault, though much of it was in his training. The important thing to remember with his breeding on Fero was Fero brought much drive, but that he looked to OTHER sources to balance that drive with hardness and aggression, typically from Greif lines.


----------



## herman williams

if I compare pike to fero , I know whitch one I would call nervy:-k


----------



## Daryl Ehret

Oh whatever... I know which one I'd call stubborn. If nervy's what you want, I hear it's common in czech lines. ha ha.

When you breed on a dog, it should be obvious you're not transfering that dog in full. Pretty much half, unless the dog in question is linebred, or the other parent's from similar background (again, linebreeding). You're selecting for it's more _prepotent_ characteristics, traits that breed true.

So then, your full compliment of producers in the pedigree might each be responsible for certain components to the breeding. As example, Yoschy's drive with Nick's hardness. One aspect is hardly much use without the other. Drive, hardness, aggression, clear head, compliance. All favorable traits if they are pronounced, but properly balanced. You're the one who told me breeding is an art as much as it is a science.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Actually it is much more art than science unless anyone has a full staffed (and years) genetics lab at their disposal. Neither art nor science has much to do with breeding today. Titles trump both art and science.....and the best dogs.


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## herman williams

daryll wrote
As example, Yoschy's drive with Nick's hardness

how will you make shure the pups will get yoshis drive and nick s hardnes

no need to go back about ferro line daryll , we had this conversation too many times , opinions vary ,its a good thing koos still has fans in america

given the number of offspring one should expect to see a little bit more pike offspring 

LOL daryll , my czechdogs are anything but nervy ,LOLLOL they have genetic full and calm grips


----------



## Randy Allen

Why all this talk of 50/50 split? I don't quite understand.
If it were really approximetly a 50/50 split in genetics why is a litter so different between the so called top and bottom? Even within the closely held line breedings.

Isn't it that while there are 50% here and 50& from there available. each dog actually gets a little more of this and a bit less of that? And in comparing the 'top' and 'bottom' of the liter it all becomes something more than a little bit?

Disclaimer:
I know sh*t about breeding.


----------



## herman williams

well this is were my ability to write technic english ends , but Ill try to discribe simple , what and howmuch each pup gets from each parent is not in our control ,and can not be measured in percentages and not explained in charts that part of breedingprocess is out of our hands , but can be influenced by in/linebreeding both geno and fenotypical and selecting of breedingmaterial over multiple generations


----------



## Daryl Ehret

_"how will you make shure the pups will get yoshis drive and nick s hardnes"_

Selection, of course. For the puppies to have it, the parents must have it, not just buried somewhere in the pedigree.

I've actually seem a lot more Pike progeny than Fero. That's mostly because of the dogs owned and bred in my local area at the time. I've never owned anything from Pike lines, myself, but I wouldn't avoid them. I do recall some close linebreeding on him that resulted in adverse hips, but that's where "selection" comes in.


----------



## herman williams

I mean , how do you make sure the best of both parents end up in one puppy , that you cant influence

by the way , did you order something from the catalogue I recommended:-({|=


----------



## Don Turnipseed

herman williams said:


> I mean , how do you make sure the best of both parents end up in one puppy , that you cant influence
> 
> by the way , did you order something from the catalogue I recommended:-({|=


It takes years to influence what you get in the pups. The more outcrossing in a pedigree, the less likely you will ever have any influence. Odds are best if both parents(different lines) are heavily linebred/inbred for the same traits.


----------



## Daryl Ehret

herman williams said:


> by the way , did you order something from the catalogue I recommended:-({|=


I don't remember, so I must not have.


----------



## herman williams

don , I partly agree , if I make outcross ,Yes I would like it to be an inbred dog to make sure that what I want from it is geneticly locked in so to speak , but if he is inbred on the same qualitys as my dog , the combination wouldnot improve anything , so I would want him inbred strong on qualities I would want to improve on my dog


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Daryl Ehret said:


> _"how will you make shure the pups will get yoshis drive and nick s hardnes"_
> 
> Selection, of course. For the puppies to have it, the parents must have it, not just buried somewhere in the pedigree.
> 
> I've actually seem a lot more Pike progeny than Fero. That's mostly because of the dogs owned and bred in my local area at the time. I've never owned anything from Pike lines, myself, but I wouldn't avoid them. I do recall some close linebreeding on him that resulted in adverse hips, but that's where "selection" comes in.


 
Hey Daryl, 

The Pike offspring you have seen, how were they bred? 

What type of dog would you describe them as?



Regards and Happy New Year


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Why have you get than a Opal daugther??




Tiago Fontes said:


> Let's just say I also have a Tiekerhook bitch (out of Opal von der roderburg and Nadja Van Tiekerhook) and she's approximately the same age as the Pike male... She's 11 months old. There's absolutely no comparison between the two of them in terms of drive, aggression and grip. The Pike dog gives her 10-0.
> 
> I have stopped hearing what breeders say about stud dogs they dont use... and started seeing the dogs myself to form an opinion. From what I have seen in regards to Pike dogs, they are intense, strong, solid dogs.
> 
> 
> Regards


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Because I explained Koos Hassing what I was looking for and he said Opal and Nadja would produce it. 

What is your opinion on Opal?


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

The best thing to do in selecting a stud dog is go and see the dog for yourself or talk with people that have the same breeding goals as you do.
I've seen a mali that was super strong on the field, stopped the decoy with all his strength but would tuck his tail if a stranger peeped into his kennel, dog wouldn't do obedience in an off field environment.
Seeing for yourself or word of mouth i believe are the best options.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

ask your self why a dog like opal have make only a few studs in germany.he was real succesfull on big trials but not one realy good kennel have used him!!!why??
for sure he is a good dog,but is he so good that we need him for the breed??
does it make him now better because Koos have him for studs?? i know him from his time withhis first owner. is the same like the last bsp winner,great points but not one really good breeder use him.



Tiago Fontes said:


> Because I explained Koos Hassing what I was looking for and he said Opal and Nadja would produce it.
> 
> What is your opinion on Opal?


----------



## herman williams

great points show us who are great trainers , not who are great dogs


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

I would love to see a poll of people who have imported Tiekerhook dogs and how many were satisfied. After a couple of years on this forum and other than a vendor who had breeding bitch, its been mostly negative. Stefan, I don't think many have your inside track of what's being bred/used in Germany and they rely on the breeder to send them what they asked for and expect to get it--especially from someone like Koos Hassing.

Terrasita


----------



## Don Turnipseed

herman williams said:


> don , I partly agree , if I make outcross ,Yes I would like it to be an inbred dog to make sure that what I want from it is geneticly locked in so to speak , but if he is inbred on the same qualitys as my dog , the combination wouldnot improve anything , so I would want him inbred strong on qualities I would want to improve on my dog


I agree with you in part Herman. There are the qualities I chose to breed for because they were important to me. Lets say gameness is a priority to me, in finding a suitable mate, I want one that is every bit as game, but, may posses secondary traits such as bidability, that may be better than my line. That would improve my line without possibly detracting from the gameness to achieve the improvement. I place a high value on social dominance, but, many think dog with a high degree of SD are a PITA. It is why I keep as closed a gene pool as possible. If any outcross is used, I take the offspring right back to my lines to keep what is imortant to me. When I look at a pedigree, the last thing I want to see is unrelated dogs all over the pedigree. That is the reason pups are such a crap shoot today. Way to many variables entered to predict anything.


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## herman williams

don , mostly agree , if you look at my website under breedingphilosophy , you will see what I think about type to type breeding
on the effects of outcrossing on the breed Im 1000% with you


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## Stefan Schaub

i as a breeder can not give promise on puppys.i must try to bring the best to the best, but for that you must know what the best is. you must know how to train a dog. if you can not train a dog how want you know what is good.

pike!!heiko emken,his owner have had a few kids out of him.but no one was good enough.he is a great trainer and helper.he is able to go on dogs nerves that they look wild and hard to controll. really i do not know why someone want make a linebreeding on him. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I would love to see a poll of people who have imported Tiekerhook dogs and how many were satisfied. After a couple of years on this forum and other than a vendor who had breeding bitch, its been mostly negative. Stefan, I don't think many have your inside track of what's being bred/used in Germany and they rely on the breeder to send them what they asked for and expect to get it--especially from someone like Koos Hassing.
> 
> Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

herman williams said:


> don , mostly agree , if you look at my website under breedingphilosophy , you will see what I think about type to type breeding
> on the effects of outcrossing on the breed Im 1000% with you


What is your website Herman? I think we agree on most of this.


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## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I would love to see a poll of people who have imported Tiekerhook dogs and how many were satisfied. After a couple of years on this forum and other than a vendor who had breeding bitch, its been mostly negative. Stefan, I don't think many have your inside track of what's being bred/used in Germany and they rely on the breeder to send them what they asked for and expect to get it--especially from someone like Koos Hassing.
> 
> Terrasita


I imported a pup from Koos in 1991. He was by Asko vom Joufne Keyleff and out of Steffi van Tiekerhook. He was a great dog. Monster grips, hard as nails, lots of aggression but not a lot of handler aggression, tons of prey drive....but he had bad hips & elbows, unfortunately.

I don't know anything about his current crop of dogs.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Stefan Schaub said:


> ask your self why a dog like opal have make only a few studs in germany.he was real succesfull on big trials but not one realy good kennel have used him!!!why??
> for sure he is a good dog,but is he so good that we need him for the breed??
> does it make him now better because Koos have him for studs?? i know him from his time withhis first owner. is the same like the last bsp winner,great points but not one really good breeder use him.


You are right Stefan but not everybody has the opportunity to see a dog before they use him as a stud. Since Opal was competing in the BSP many people will assume he was something worth breeding just like how many people are breeding their bitches to Javir vom talka marda and angsbacken's rosso, i think ginoginelli von karthago is the next big thing.
As for Pike i believe KNPV training helps make some dogs look more drivey than they are genetically. I haven't seen any of his progeny that were really impressive.
Lastly i would like to ask you what you look for in selecting a stud dog since most times what we have available to us is their sport performance.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> I imported a pup from Koos in 1991. He was by Asko vom Joufne Keyleff and out of Steffi van Tiekerhook. He was a great dog. Monster grips, hard as nails, lots of aggression but not a lot of handler aggression, tons of prey drive....but he had bad hips & elbows, unfortunately.
> 
> I don't know anything about his current crop of dogs.


It seems like those coming through Steffi were the better talked about but her hips weren't the greatest if I remember. Yours was one that I remembered. Bad hips & elbows. How long did he last working and how far were you able to take him before his health interfered. 

T


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## brad robert

Funny how Rosso & Ginogenelli are close bred on Timmy and Troll:-$

Like rosso breeding probably because he is bred similiar to my bitch :razz:His dam my bitches grandmum.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> i as a breeder can not give promise on puppys.i must try to bring the best to the best, but for that you must know what the best is. you must know how to train a dog. if you can not train a dog how want you know what is good.
> 
> pike!!heiko emken,his owner have had a few kids out of him.but no one was good enough.he is a great trainer and helper.he is able to go on dogs nerves that they look wild and hard to controll. really i do not know why someone want make a linebreeding on him.


Well, you're spot on here. One thing I do look for first in an advertised stud dog is what he has done for his home kennel. If they haven't raised, kept and competed successfully with his progeny, then that doesn't say much about his producing ability. I think a lot of it is breeding for puppy marketability. Dog wins the BSP and everyone flocks to breed to him without first waiting to see how he is producing and with what bitches/lines. But I guess having the previous year's BSP winner as the sire helps sell puppies. I think the home kennel should "prove" the stud dog's producing ability. I've watched the Pike video. He's flashy and quick but for me, he's wearing too many collars. Its back to the look and how to get it. What part of him is man-made through a certain type of training. Strip it away and what do you actually have in the dog? Drives--reactivity--nerves. How do you distinguish what is what looking at a video of a fully trained dog.

I think the breeder can only do so much but can give advice on how the dog will develop in certain traits based on age. The rest is up to the trainer to read and develop the dog.

Terrasita


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Just a quick question guys

Would you rather breed to a popular stud like Javir, Rosso, etc that you have only seen on videos or a Strong nerved, high drive male at your local club?
I understand that many people aren't experienced enough to select a male that is 'stud worthy' so they'll rather go with a 'proven' stud but sometimes it seems the devil u know is better than the angel you don't.
I've seen some small time breeders that are producing good police and sport dogs without using big name studs. Also apart from breeding a dog what do experienced breeders use to select studs--- do u do police style tests or what?


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## brad robert

If he is a great dog with great breeding of course. A good one is a good one weather or not he went to the BSP is irrellavent if people in the know have judged him as outstanding and he has competed thats what counts.JMO


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## herman williams

I think famous names are more often used to help to sell the pups , than for their qualities , I personally dont give a sh**t about points and names , I use those dogs that can bring , what I want to improve on , and till now in GSD breeding none of the studs I used are well known , the same goes for my previous bouvier breeding , in 25 years hardly ever used topwinning or famous dogs , but produced healthy quality dogs that can be found in breedingprograms all over the world


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## herman williams

don , I will PM my website:idea:


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## Don Turnipseed

herman williams said:


> I think famous names are more often used to help to sell the pups , than for their qualities , I personally dont give a sh**t about points and names , I use those dogs that can bring , what I want to improve on , and till now in GSD breeding none of the studs I used are well known , the same goes for my previous bouvier breeding , in 25 years hardly ever used topwinning or famous dogs , but produced healthy quality dogs that can be found in breedingprograms all over the world


I totally agree with Herman's post. All breeders know how glassyeyed buyers get when they see known names and titles on a pedigree. Reputable breeders breed as much, if not more so, for their own satisfaction than the buyers. Problem is, when you breed only for a very specific type, you close the market on yourself and have no choice but to let the market dictate your breeding selection..


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## Christopher Smith

herman williams said:


> great points show us who are great trainers , not who are great dogs


ROTFLMAO! 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Stefan Schaub

Ginoginelli is for sure not the next big thing. that team around him is one of the best in the world!!!he can not produce his points.but people get smarter they wait and see if a well known kennel use him if not they stay away. example eliot prevent.people have seen that in the beginning some kennels well known for what typ dog they produce have used him.he have make for sure 100studs but only 6 trials.all trial only club trials,but his quality is out standing,real drive ,real nerves,real grips,real dominance and he is a real male and his pediegree have yoschy blood.



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> You are right Stefan but not everybody has the opportunity to see a dog before they use him as a stud. Since Opal was competing in the BSP many people will assume he was something worth breeding just like how many people are breeding their bitches to Javir vom talka marda and angsbacken's rosso, i think ginoginelli von karthago is the next big thing.
> As for Pike i believe KNPV training helps make some dogs look more drivey than they are genetically. I haven't seen any of his progeny that were really impressive.
> Lastly i would like to ask you what you look for in selecting a stud dog since most times what we have available to us is their sport performance.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

herman williams said:


> great points show us who are great trainers , not who are great dogs


Precisely! If I had a kennel and wantd to prove my dogs consistently, I would look for a top trainer. I want to see how many dogs that trainer has titled. Don't want to see a few low level club titles. I want to see titles that mean something at national levels. Why? Because if a person can title multiple dogs, he isn't spending the dogs lifetime to get it right. Also, all dogs have different quirks in personality. Multiple dogs tells me he can read that and work with it. I wouldn't be looking for someone that "thinks" he is good, I would be looking for one that "is" good. That is the best use of titles. It is about trainers more so than dogs.


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## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> Precisely! If I had a kennel and wantd to prove my dogs consistently, I would look for a top trainer. I want to see how many dogs that trainer has titled. Don't want to see a few low level club titles. I want to see titles that mean something at national levels. Why? Because if a person can title multiple dogs, he isn't spending the dogs lifetime to get it right. Also, all dogs have different quirks in personality. Multiple dogs tells me he can read that and work with it. I wouldn't be looking for someone that "thinks" he is good, I would be looking for one that "is" good. That is the best use of titles. It is about trainers more so than dogs.


 ROTFLMAO! 



Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Stefan Schaub said:


> Ginoginelli is for sure not the next big thing. that team around him is one of the best in the world!!!he can not produce his points.but people get smarter they wait and see if a well known kennel use him if not they stay away. example eliot prevent.people have seen that in the beginning some kennels well known for what typ dog they produce have used him.he have make for sure 100studs but only 6 trials.all trial only club trials,but his quality is out standing,real drive ,real nerves,real grips,real dominance and he is a real male and his pediegree have yoschy blood.


I understand what you are saying but not everybody is an experienced decoy and knows how to evaluate or has the opportunities you have that is why sometimes people have to select dogs based on second hand information.
If you don't mind sharing a little information on what you look for in a stud dog.....during training do you add environmental stress, civil agitation etc?


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## Gillian Schuler

Stefan Schaub said:


> Ginoginelli is for sure not the next big thing. that team around him is one of the best in the world!!!he can not produce his points.but people get smarter they wait and see if a well known kennel use him if not they stay away. example eliot prevent.people have seen that in the beginning some kennels well known for what typ dog they produce have used him.he have make for sure 100studs but only 6 trials.all trial only club trials,but his quality is out standing,real drive ,real nerves,real grips,real dominance and he is a real male and his pediegree have yoschy blood.


Would you say that Ginoginelli is representative of the type of dog being bred nowadays mostly for the BSP, WUSV, etc. as high scoring dogs? 

When I started in Schutzhund I remember dogs such as Pedro Körbeltal owned by Jürg Wullschleger and some Leipheimer Moor dogs having the reputation of being hard to handle, especially in "B". I asked why, and was told that such dogs were "bockig" cannot describe it in English - stubborn doesn't really apply. But these dogs put up a great performance in "C".

Would you give me your opinion of Black Jack von der Teufelsquelle?


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## Stefan Schaub

he have a great line.but he self is not enough.he is perfect trained.protection is not realy protection for him,it is a game for him.he have no agressions and normal prey,but with that training he works like a robot.if nothing happend he looks great,if he is not sure it looks than like 2010.but you see what this people can do with a dog like that.second place from last year the same. also i think that the helper work in germany on the big events are to nice, no real pressure but that is what the head of sv want.


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## Stephanie Johnson

Stefan Schaub said:


> i as a breeder can not give promise on puppys.i must try to bring the best to the best, but for that you must know what the best is. you must know how to train a dog. if you can not train a dog how want you know what is good.


Because now you are in America Mr. Schaub - Land of the Free to be Stupid and then Blame it on Someone Else.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Because now you are in America Mr. Schaub - Land of the Free to be Stupid and then Blame it on Someone Else.


Not sure exactly what you mean but i know training has a much larger effect on a dog's performance than most of us want to think and that is what i think Stefan was referring to.
This is a Jukon von der staatsmacht son, a gsd with a deep pushing bite that many of us claim is only found in certain lines of malinois...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGHL1TVn0Cc&list=UUKfn6LrrGmXS4eaqJf1OnSA&index=8&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L2UdZzLpsA


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## Stephanie Johnson

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Not sure exactly what you mean


Here is what I mean: There are a plethora of "breeders" who have no business doing so. Matings are being planned based on the say so of what someone has told them is "good". Why would one accept someone else's version of "good", especially if that someone else stands to profit from this acceptance? I suggest most Americans don't know what "good" is. As Mr. Schaub noted, one most know what is "good", and this knowledge does not come from someone else, however accomplished they may be. It comes from personal experience. In this case, one must have first trained a "good" dog to have the ability to recognize that which is "good". It is stupid to think that one can breed "good" dogs when one does not have the ability to recognize "good".


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## Anita Griffing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehGjpi4bV68

The protection in this video shows Pike not as a robot in
my opinion. He shows good aggression. What am I missing?
This is only one short video, but I like it.
Anita


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## will fernandez

Anita Griffing said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehGjpi4bV68
> 
> The protection in this video shows Pike not as a robot in
> my opinion. He shows good aggression. What am I missing?
> This is only one short video, but I like it.
> Anita


He didnt say pike=robot


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## Daniel Lybbert

Im no schutzhund guru, I didn't see aggresion in that dog ever in the video. Hes bouncing up and down barking with his tail wagging. While biting it seemed to me that the dog spent a bit of time trying to spin around the back of the helper. To me that is a little bit of avoidance.
I dont know the dog though. What makes you see agrresion in the dog?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Im no schutzhund guru, I didn't see aggresion in that dog ever in the video. Hes bouncing up and down barking with his tail wagging. While biting it seemed to me that the dog spent a bit of time trying to spin around the back of the helper. To me that is a little bit of avoidance.
> I dont know the dog though. What makes you see agrresion in the dog?


A video is not an excellent means of judging a dog. There are monsters on the field that will tuck their tails in strange environments. Some dogs spin around the helper in an effort to win the sleeve, not necessarily a sign of avoidance. Change in grips is a good way to know if its avoidance


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## Anita Griffing

I see the Pike on open side, looking at the helper and also flat eared.
IMO this is good aggression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REggr8kc56s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMlOMCfknJY&feature=related

This to me is prey drive barking.
Anita


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## Stephanie Johnson

Anita Griffing said:


> What am I missing?


My point.


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## Stephanie Johnson

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> A video is not an excellent means of judging a dog.


The same can be said of opinions gleaned from internet discussions.


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## Gillian Schuler

Stefan Schaub said:


> he have a great line.but he self is not enough.he is perfect trained.protection is not realy protection for him,it is a game for him.he have no agressions and normal prey,but with that training he works like a robot.if nothing happend he looks great,if he is not sure it looks than like 2010.but you see what this people can do with a dog like that.second place from last year the same. also i think that the helper work in germany on the big events are to nice, no real pressure but that is what the head of sv want.


Meinst Du hier "Jack von der Teufelsquelle" oder Ginoginelli??

Do you mean "Jack von der Teufelsquelle" or "Ginoginelli"??

Danke!!


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## Daniel Lybbert

Open side is the side without the sleeve?


> A video is not an excellent means of judging a dog.


I agree with this.


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## Gregory Doud

Gillian Schuler said:


> Meinst Du hier "Jack von der Teufelsquelle" oder Ginoginelli??
> 
> Do you mean "Jack von der Teufelsquelle" or "Ginoginelli"??
> 
> Danke!!


I think Stefan is referring to Ginoginelli von Karthago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMFKe1ZLLHM


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Stephanie Johnson said:


> The same can be said of opinions gleaned from internet discussions.


Exactly, you're sooo right. Unfortunately not all of us have the means to go to germany or the czech republic by ourselves. Sometimes people ask questions and hope that someone like Stefan who decoys a lot of these popular dogs will give his opinion. Many people buy dogs based on what people like him say because they can't evaluate these dogs themselves,


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## Stephanie Johnson

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Many people buy dogs based on what people like him say because they can't evaluate these dogs themselves,


Your use of "can't" in reference to logistics becomes an excuse for the lack of knowledge and ability to evaluate a dog themselves. Many people "can't" evaluate dogs because they have not paid the necessary dues, ie. trained a dog in the discipline and to the level which they are using as criteria for evaluation. Dues which are necessary to pay as a prerequisite to an informed discussion of this ot.


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## Gillian Schuler

Gregory Doud said:


> I think Stefan is referring to Ginoginelli von Karthago.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMFKe1ZLLHM


Thanks Greg!!


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## Gillian Schuler

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Open side is the side without the sleeve?
> 
> I agree with this.


I wholeheartedly agree with this!!!


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## Gregory Doud

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Open side is the side without the sleeve?
> 
> This can also be a product of training and be artificial. - Greg


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## Gillian Schuler

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Exactly, you're sooo right. Unfortunately not all of us have the means to go to germany or the czech republic by ourselves. Sometimes people ask questions and hope that someone like Stefan who decoys a lot of these popular dogs will give his opinion. Many people buy dogs based on what people like him say because they can't evaluate these dogs themselves,


There are enough websites around in Europe, many of them in English. 

There are obviously a few of us on here that can speak German and would be glad to help.

My first stop would be to look at what the breeder wants to breed: i.e. healthy, athletic dogs free of HD and with good elbows and spines. Secondly they must have good nerves. With all this alone, you have a chance of getting a pup that will meet your requirements. I would say "bitework" is guaranteed to be good. I am not stargazed but I would say bitework is my last priority when buying a working dog from a serious breeder in Germany. If all else is good, i.e. hips, elbows, spine, temperament, nerves, etc. then I will be happy.


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## Gillian Schuler

Gillian Schuler said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with this!!!


Sorry, please dismiss the above. I was referring to not being able to evaluate a dog from a video.


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## herman williams

besides from the video , also many have a problem in real life to separate natural qualities from trained behaviour , and to see the difference between courage and high preydrive , to name a few


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## Gerald Guay

Gillian said:


> My first stop would be to look at what the breeder wants to breed: i.e. healthy, athletic dogs free of HD and with good elbows and spines. Secondly they must have good nerves. With all this alone, you have a chance of getting a pup that will meet your requirements. I would say "bitework" is guaranteed to be good. I am not stargazed but I would say bitework is my last priority when buying a working dog from a serious breeder in Germany. If all else is good, i.e. hips, elbows, spine, temperament, nerves, etc. then I will be happy.
> ___


So well said.


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## Erik Berg

herman williams said:


> besides from the video , also many have a problem in real life to separate natural qualities from trained behaviour , and to see the difference between courage and high preydrive , to name a few


Isn´t this quite hard to do even for experts, see the difference between natural and trained behaviour, if you are talking about only see the dog during a SCH-competition?

Stefan, why is eliot prevent more popular than opal then, is eliot really so much better and in what way, if we say both eliot and opal had no previous offspring that you can base your selection on to see what they produce.


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## Rick Mattox

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, you're spot on here. One thing I do look for first in an advertised stud dog is what he has done for his home kennel. If they haven't raised, kept and competed successfully with his progeny, then that doesn't say much about his producing ability. I think a lot of it is breeding for puppy marketability. Dog wins the BSP and everyone flocks to breed to him without first waiting to see how he is producing and with what bitches/lines. But I guess having the previous year's BSP winner as the sire helps sell puppies. I think the home kennel should "prove" the stud dog's producing ability. I've watched the Pike video. He's flashy and quick but for me, he's wearing too many collars. Its back to the look and how to get it. What part of him is man-made through a certain type of training. Strip it away and what do you actually have in the dog? Drives--reactivity--nerves. How do you distinguish what is what looking at a video of a fully trained dog.
> 
> I think the breeder can only do so much but can give advice on how the dog will develop in certain traits based on age. The rest is up to the trainer to read and develop the dog.
> 
> Terrasita


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## herman williams

i agree its harder to see when dog is in program longer /older and only whatching a trail , but there are still enough signs/bodylanguge to tell you , also going to watch training of dogs can be eyeopeners , and even video can give you pointers as well


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Im no schutzhund guru, I didn't see aggresion in that dog ever in the video. Hes bouncing up and down barking with his tail wagging. While biting it seemed to me that the dog spent a bit of time trying to spin around the back of the helper. To me that is a little bit of avoidance.
> I dont know the dog though. What makes you see agrresion in the dog?


He does seem to avoid being frontal on the decoy and and I think the handler's body position is artfully used in that regard. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Anita Griffing said:


> I see the Pike on open side, looking at the helper and also flat eared.
> IMO this is good aggression.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REggr8kc56s
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMlOMCfknJY&feature=related
> 
> This to me is prey drive barking.
> Anita



The flat eared to me definitely says defensive [context-wise, maybe a bit too much] but I also have to wonder how much the handler is contributing to this as well as the decoy. As for internet discussions, thank god we are discussing dogs and certain working attributes. If nothing else it and the video discussions help develop your eye and ability to look beyond the surface. The more we can read from people like Stefan, I think the better we can get at evaluating behavior. I do agree you need to train and work a dog and that makes for an even better breeder because through that you learn what it takes in the dog's mental and physical attributes to be successful. If you don't train/trial then you'd better spend a lot of time observing and talking to the people that do.

T


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## Don Turnipseed

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The flat eared to me definitely says defensive [context-wise, maybe a bit too much] but I also have to wonder how much the handler is contributing to this as well as the decoy. As for internet discussions, thank god we are discussing dogs and certain working attributes. If nothing else it and the video discussions help develop your eye and ability to look beyond the surface. The more we can read from people like Stefan, I think the better we can get at evaluating behavior. I do agree you need to train and work a dog and that makes for an even better breeder because through that you learn what it takes in the dog's mental and physical attributes to be successful. If you don't train/trial then you'd better spend a lot of time observing and talking to the people that do.
> 
> T


You can never achieve the abilty to judge a dog by what someone else does. You have to do it yourself to really appreciate what a real dog is. Without "personal experience" you have no idea!


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The flat eared to me definitely says defensive [context-wise, maybe a bit too much] but I also have to wonder how much the handler is contributing to this as well as the decoy. As for internet discussions, thank god we are discussing dogs and certain working attributes. If nothing else it and the video discussions help develop your eye and ability to look beyond the surface. The more we can read from people like Stefan, I think the better we can get at evaluating behavior.
> 
> T


I think you are dead wrong by assuming defense by ear carriage in this video..but then again my view of defense vs. fight and aggression may not be typical of most Sch type views...

watch almost every KNPV dog doing the revier, (done from the rear of the decoy) almost all the ears are layed down...and none of those dogs are in defense, while behind the decoy...

my own dog goes into a B&H ears flat..everytime...

even for a tug, with ME...is that defense?


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## Don Turnipseed

Good god Joby, you don't know when a dog is pregnant....but you are an xpert in what they are doing when their ears are layed back???? Gimme a break!!


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Good god Joby, you don't know when a dog is pregnant....but you are an xpert in what they are doing when their ears are layed back???? Gimme a break!!


hello Don...happy new year....


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> hello Don...happy new year....


Happy New Yar Joby!! Lovin life right now! Hope you are doing the same!!


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## Don Turnipseed

My GF is here and I am mellow as shit!!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> I think you are dead wrong by assuming defense by ear carriage in this video..but then again my view of defense vs. fight and aggression may not be typical of most Sch type views...
> 
> watch almost every KNPV dog doing the revier, (done from the rear of the decoy) almost all the ears are layed down...and none of those dogs are in defense, while behind the decoy...
> 
> my own dog goes into a B&H ears flat..everytime...
> 
> even for a tug, with ME...is that defense?


Did you watch the video posted? Have you seen the 1997 BSP video of Pike? Got any links to a KNPV GSD w/ his ears plastered on the rear of the decoy? Would love to see. As for the puppy, submissive play with you is a different context. As for whether the dog is in defense, how do you know. How do you define it? You don't think a handler can put his own dog in defense? The whole body language thing isn't generic to all dogs. I'll go out on a limb and say that I think what's going on in this video has probably more to do with the handler than the decoy. But like you said, I could be dead wrong.

T


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## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> You can never achieve the abilty to judge a dog by what someone else does. You have to do it yourself to really appreciate what a real dog is. Without "personal experience" you have no idea!


Alright The Seed! You got one right.


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## Stefan Schaub

i am not sure if i real understand your posting!!

how can you give a promise on a breeding combination.you can tell people what you think what may be come out.can you promise that they are able to do k9,ipo,ring or what ever. if they are social,if they have fear for diffrent things. if you can do that you must have magic knowlegs.




Stephanie Johnson said:


> Because now you are in America Mr. Schaub - Land of the Free to be Stupid and then Blame it on Someone Else.


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## Rick Mattox

Noticed the last reply posted only the quote not my reply. I thought the comment about Pike wearing too many collars was strange. He has a fursaver and a prong on. In training, I never take off a fursaver when I put on a prong. Don't know many trainers ,if any, that do. 







Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, you're spot on here. One thing I do look for first in an advertised stud dog is what he has done for his home kennel. If they haven't raised, kept and competed successfully with his progeny, then that doesn't say much about his producing ability. I think a lot of it is breeding for puppy marketability. Dog wins the BSP and everyone flocks to breed to him without first waiting to see how he is producing and with what bitches/lines. But I guess having the previous year's BSP winner as the sire helps sell puppies. I think the home kennel should "prove" the stud dog's producing ability. I've watched the Pike video. He's flashy and quick but for me, he's wearing too many collars. Its back to the look and how to get it. What part of him is man-made through a certain type of training. Strip it away and what do you actually have in the dog? Drives--reactivity--nerves. How do you distinguish what is what looking at a video of a fully trained dog.
> 
> I think the breeder can only do so much but can give advice on how the dog will develop in certain traits based on age. The rest is up to the trainer to read and develop the dog.
> 
> Terrasita


----------



## Rick Mattox

As far as Pike goes I like him in a pedigree. As a matter of fact I have 2 males from a breeding I did that are bred down from Dasty von der Berger Hochburg probably Pike's best known son. Very nice litter. As a matter of fact when Horst and Michaela Knoche (of Javir Talka Marda fame) were here this past spring Horst realy liked the breeding. He particularly mentioned that he liked Dasty having not only seen him work but actually having done helper work on the dog many times. I like what I like, but it's always nice when a big name that bred their own BSP winner agrees with you.


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## Stefan Schaub

For sure one of the best sons. reason for that he comes out of one of the best females that pike have mated.Forma Karthago




Rick Mattox said:


> As far as Pike goes I like him in a pedigree. As a matter of fact I have 2 males from a breeding I did that are bred down from Dasty von der Berger Hochburg probably Pike's best known son. Very nice litter. As a matter of fact when Horst and Michaela Knoche (of Javir Talka Marda fame) were here this past spring Horst realy liked the breeding. He particularly mentioned that he liked Dasty having not only seen him work but actually having done helper work on the dog many times. I like what I like, but it's always nice when a big name that bred their own BSP winner agrees with you.


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

Stefan Schaub said:


> i am not sure if i real understand your posting!!
> 
> how can you give a promise on a breeding combination.you can tell people what you think what may be come out.can you promise that they are able to do k9,ipo,ring or what ever. if they are social,if they have fear for diffrent things. if you can do that you must have magic knowlegs.


I was agreeing with you. One can not honestly promise/guarantee these things. But you will find breeders in the US who will do so. In fact there are some who will do so before the puppies can be evaluated and even before they are born. Then they will sell these puppies based on these unfounded promises and blame the buyer if the puppy does not turn into the dog they were promised.
You will also find that you will sell very nice puppies to people who do not develop them properly and will then find fault with the dog and blame the breeder.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> For sure one of the best sons. reason for that he comes out of one of the best females that pike have mated.Forma Karthago


When you pull up the Pike videos, you see Dasty. How he presents to me is much better. But his attributes are attributed to Pike. So then it comes down to is it his mother line or different training or a fluke even. So can you really differentiate amongst Pike offspring based on who the mother was?

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> When you pull up the Pike videos, you see Dasty. How he presents to me is much better. But his attributes are attributed to Pike. So then it comes down to is it his mother line or different training or a fluke even. S*o can you really differentiate amongst Pike offspring based on who the mother was?*
> 
> Terrasita


I watched the Pike and Dasty vids, and both or their ears are laid back


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## Rick Mattox

Here's a few more nice ones Pike produced

[SIZE=+1]Gideon Gardefense V Cay vom Zapfenpflücker Dingo von Conneforde
Also you have to remember who bred to this dog. Many more than once. von Conneforde (8 times), vom Salztalblick (twice), vom Waldwinkel, Jabina (4 times), Karthago, Fuchsstein (4 or 5 times), Mohnwiese. the list goes on. Most people would be hard pressed to get these kennels to breed to there dog once. Let alone numberous times. If he didn't produce well they never would have went back again.... [/SIZE]


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## Rick Mattox

Joby Becker said:


> I watched the Pike and Dasty vids, and both or their ears are laid back


 
Dasty's son Arras does the same thing with the ears. You also have to remember the training that all three of these dogs came from. The helper was a real "BAD GUY". Not just nice guy who plays tug-o-war with them. It was train as "True" protection work. Going into the blind was potentially a risky situation. Not much prey barking going on in the blind with this type of dog, with that type of training.


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## Joby Becker

Rick Mattox said:


> Dasty's son Arras does the same thing with the ears. You also have to remember the training that all three of these dogs came from. The helper was a real "BAD GUY". Not just nice guy who plays tug-o-war with them. It was train as "True" protection work. Going into the blind was potentially a risky situation. Not much prey barking going on in the blind with this type of dog, with that type of training.


no problems with ears back here, I cant remember seeing a serious dog showing aggression with his ears up...I'm sure that there have been occasions, I can't remember seeing any though personally...

I just would not use a dog's ears laying down to label a dog working in defense..that was my point.

I have seen dogs in what I would call defense in the blind, and it is not a pretty sight.

seem like good dogs to me...I do now wonder why they cut that video on Cay's long bite though...was a let down


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Did you watch the video posted? Have you seen the 1997 BSP video of Pike? Got any links to a KNPV GSD w/ his ears plastered on the rear of the decoy? Would love to see. As for the puppy, submissive play with you is a different context. As for whether the dog is in defense, how do you know. How do you define it? You don't think a handler can put his own dog in defense? The whole body language thing isn't generic to all dogs. I'll go out on a limb and say that I think what's going on in this video has probably more to do with the handler than the decoy. But like you said, I could be dead wrong.
> 
> T


I was not talking about submissive play of a puppy T, I was talking about an adult dog, I do still have an adult dog..here is the first time sent into a blind with her, she will behave the same with me in the blind..is this defense? not a gsd though....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-pF...xt=C3f19a8cUDOEgsToPDskL2ZJNyMpAWVRkY6vDwtqZF

I could be wrong too...happens all the time...we can agree to disagree here...

here are some vids for you to watch..although knpv gsd are not easy to find on video..

defense?

knpv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5KIYeOKiBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au-uSRSehH8

at a box on the ground (defense at a box?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOafEQw2M_s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS7aZ0OpZUU


sch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oJ4gnlFqUQ&feature=related

just sayin, ears back don't equal defense to me...that was all...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Dasty's ears don't flatten--at least not in the video I watched. At times they may tilt back and when he's on the bite but sorry, its just not the same impression as the Pike video--to me. But then again, the Pike BSP video shows a different dog. I also understand the training aspect from both the handler and the decoy so that's what I mean by you don't know how he's influenced so nervy vs. training? I don't think the body language thing is necessarily universal either. Even my bouv is different in that regard. Its just the impression I get from watching that video and especially vs. the BSP video. I think it also becomes a terms war. If he's had real training then the big bad decoy means what--its a threat--potential for harm. So flight vs. fight--its a choice. Defensive doesn't mean he is in flight mode or terrified mode. Will catch the vids tomorrow when I'm a little more awake.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Rick Mattox said:


> Here's a few more nice ones Pike produced
> 
> [SIZE=+1]Gideon Gardefense V Cay vom Zapfenpflücker Dingo von Conneforde[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=+1]Also you have to remember who bred to this dog. Many more than once. von Conneforde (8 times), vom Salztalblick (twice), vom Waldwinkel, Jabina (4 times), Karthago, Fuchsstein (4 or 5 times), Mohnwiese. the list goes on. Most people would be hard pressed to get these kennels to breed to there dog once. Let alone numberous times. If he didn't produce well they never would have went back again.... [/SIZE]


So for all the times they all bred to them, do we have progeny to track? Oh BTW, thanks for the stats.

T


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> For sure one of the best sons. reason for that he comes out of one of the best females that pike have mated.Forma Karthago


 
The female Im thinking for this breeding is a grand daughter of Dasty.


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## Stefan Schaub

Coneforde have mated with him 4 or 5 times in close to one year.looks like stalling(coneforde breeder)have magic knowleg. or maybe it was easy because he live only 30 miles away from him. where are all the good kids than if he was such a great producer?


Rick Mattox said:


> Here's a few more nice ones Pike produced
> 
> [SIZE=+1]Gideon Gardefense V Cay vom Zapfenpflücker Dingo von Conneforde[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=+1]Also you have to remember who bred to this dog. Many more than once. von Conneforde (8 times), vom Salztalblick (twice), vom Waldwinkel, Jabina (4 times), Karthago, Fuchsstein (4 or 5 times), Mohnwiese. the list goes on. Most people would be hard pressed to get these kennels to breed to there dog once. Let alone numberous times. If he didn't produce well they never would have went back again.... [/SIZE]


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## Rick Mattox

So Stefan you're saying that a big name like Conneforde only breeds to what's close. Yeah right. And Jabina? You don't get much bigger in the sport and his breedings were spread out. So he knew what he was getting and liked it. There are good ones out there off/down from Gideon, Cay, Dingo, Dasty and his son Hessel. Most of these dogs produced GSD's that the average handler in the sport today couldn't handle. NO, that's not because of the dogs. It's because the ability of the handlers has decreased. Many trainer's today can get their dogs to do just about anything. But they want that EXTREME play drive dog that only bites the sleeve because it's a game of tug and acts like a Golden Retriever. But they want him to looks like a GSD on the outside. Might be good for points. But many aren't the dog that is going to protect you, your family or property, if you need it. To me that's not a GSD. That's why the judges are instructed to judge the bite work differently under the new rules. I hope we get back to the old ways where the dog that does the routine correctly but shows no intensity or power can't V.

If you are posting here because of the dogs/offspring you've actually seen, in person,( not on the net) and you don't like it. Fine don't use it. If you are posting here because of the dogs you've actually owned or seen in person(because you've seen them in real working situations)not just on a trial field. And like it. I'm with you.

That is my final thought and post on this thread, as it's been played out.

Good luck


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## Tiago Fontes

Nice post, Rick. 

The Pike dogs I've seen are very real dogs... Thats why I like them so much. 

I know nothing, though... So take it for whats worth!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hhhhhmmmm, just looking at the Conneforde breedings, I'd say that they were determined to get something with all of the repeat breedings. SG Bora von Grauen Stern had 28 puppies. The most noted seems to be Dingo von Conneforde. Ondra von der Kine has 28 listed also. Four of those were G rated Castor, Geppetto, Jessy. I didn't go through them all to see titles. But I guess it goes to how many were able to trial at the regional and national levels. Also, how many kept in Germany vs. sold to other countries. It would be interesting to see how much is attributed to Pike in 2nd and even 3rd generation breedings vs. what they got in the first generation breedings. 

I don't think anyone has the opportunity to see most of these dogs in "real work" vs. trial work; or for most, even in person. But I think you do have to ask did he really stand out that much. Was there an era of prey/play only in Germany even amongst the working line dogs.

T


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## Rick Mattox

Crap I hate it when things pop in your head after the fact. So I guess I have to post this. One of the top competitors here in the States, Carlos Rojas uses a very nice Dasty son. Branco vom Banholz SCH3, IPO3. As a matter of fact he was the FH Champion a year or so ago. Another well known, Bill Kulla, has Ayla vom Haus Lohre SCHH3 who's down from Pike on her mothers side through Yessi Fuchsstein (love that Fuchstein stuff). Her sister Yanna Fuchsstein, a nice bitch and great producer, and they bred her to top males such as Falk von den Wolfen. Von Ibso kennel's current dog Yogy Policia Slovakia has Pike through the Dam's side.* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un6j3fXYNUc * Awesome dog, He also took down the helper at the 2011 Nationals. Also Pike's sonKinte vom Sickinger Moorwerk was at the WUSV 2 times. Van Guy's Hof bred Palma van Guy's Hof to Pike. Kept the daughter from it Yetti. They thought so much of her they bred her to their famous Ufo van Guy's Hof. Also, Vom Banholz Kennel has a lot of Pike blood in their breeding program. 

So just because you don't know anyone personally that is using the blood, doesn't mean that it isn't being used. And by big name people in the GSD community. It just means that YOU don't know.

TERRASITA. You stated " Hhhhhmmmm, just looking at the Conneforde breedings, I'd say that they were determined to get something with all of the repeat breedings."

I wouldn't say "they were determined to get something". I'd say they got it. THAT"S why all the repeat breedings.

I know more will pop in my head as the day goes on. I'll fight the urge to post again. Time for some of you folks to actually look into the subject on your own.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Rick Mattox said:


> Crap I hate it when things pop in your head after the fact. So I guess I have to post this. One of the top competitors here in the States, Carlos Rojas uses a very nice Dasty son. Branco vom Banholz SCH3, IPO3. As a matter of fact he was the FH Champion a year or so ago. Another well known, Bill Kulla, has Ayla vom Haus Lohre SCHH3 who's down from Pike on her mothers side through Yessi Fuchsstein (love that Fuchstein stuff). Her sister Yanna Fuchsstein, a nice bitch and great producer, and they bred her to top males such as Falk von den Wolfen. Von Ibso kennel's current dog Yogy Policia Slovakia has Pike through the Dam's side.* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un6j3fXYNUc * Awesome dog, He also took down the helper at the 2011 Nationals. Also Pike's sonKinte vom Sickinger Moorwerk was at the WUSV 2 times. Van Guy's Hof bred Palma van Guy's Hof to Pike. Kept the daughter from it Yetti. They thought so much of her they bred her to their famous Ufo van Guy's Hof. Also, Vom Banholz Kennel has a lot of Pike blood in their breeding program.
> 
> So just because you don't know anyone personally that is using the blood, doesn't mean that it isn't being used. And by big name people in the GSD community. It just means that YOU don't know.
> 
> TERRASITA. You stated " Hhhhhmmmm, just looking at the Conneforde breedings, I'd say that they were determined to get something with all of the repeat breedings."
> 
> I wouldn't say "they were determined to get something". I'd say they got it. THAT"S why all the repeat breedings.
> 
> I know more will pop in my head as the day goes on. I'll fight the urge to post again. Time for some of you folks to actually look into the subject on your own.


56 puppies and how do you decide whether Pike was a producer with these two bitches? I'm just looking at first generation. How in second and third generation breedings everyone attributes what they get to Pike and just Pike, I don't know. In those second and third generations of dogs, is there no other dog responsible for what you see in the progeny. I know certain names sell dogs. But you have the great Pike or Asko in the third generation and its Pike or Asko blood that is controlling? Can you really say that there aren't other dogs contributing through that mother line like in your example Fuchstein? Its not that deep for me one way or the other unless you have some health stats but I can't see how all the quality even in the dogs you mention above can be attributed to a drop of Pike.

T


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## Don Turnipseed

If there is an outcross in every generation, you can't give all the credit to Pike. If Pike dogs are 50% of each generation, it is getting more promising. If the three generations are all Pike relatives....it is Pike for sure.


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## Christopher Jones

Stefan Schaub said:


> Coneforde have mated with him 4 or 5 times in close to one year.looks like stalling(coneforde breeder)have magic knowleg. or maybe it was easy because he live only 30 miles away from him. where are all the good kids than if he was such a great producer?


So Stefan, which dogs do you like that really produce themselfs? I know you like Eliot, but what others?
There are some serious working people in Germany who rate some of the Stadtfeld dogs like Uno and Metlin above all others in Germany at the moment as producers


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## Rick Mattox

Terrasita what is your point???????????????????????????????????????????

I just gave you a number of good dogs directly from Pike. That not good enough for you? You don't like Pike? Don't breed to anything that has him in it. Why are you here on a Pike thread? What is your goal? Which dog of yours has produced a SCH3 let alone ones that participated in the WUSV???? You've not offered anything to this thread other than what-if's and how-about's. 

You asked "In those second and third generations of dogs, is there no other dog responsible for what you see in the progeny?" 
You need to learn a little about genetics. The original poster wasn't talking about the dog being in the 3rd generation once. It's a 3-3 breeding. That means he's there twice. Without going too deeply into a genetic debate. That means that Pike's genes would have a much better likely-hood to affect the outcome of the pups as his genetic makeup would be doubled up upon. If the offspring come out looking and showing the characteristics of the dog that the 3-3 was done on, good or bad, then yes he has effected the breeding. That is why 3-3 breedings have been done in working/hunting dogs for years.


As far as Pike or Asko goes (or breeding for that matter) if you have not had first hand contact with them or their offspring you have nothing to offer me as insight as I have.

Now I remember why I don't post much.


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## Joby Becker

MY god...lol lol

WTF????


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Rick Mattox said:


> Terrasita what is your point???????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> I just gave you a number of good dogs directly from Pike. That not good enough for you? You don't like Pike? Don't breed to anything that has him in it. Why are you here on a Pike thread? What is your goal? Which dog of yours has produced a SCH3 let alone ones that participated in the WUSV???? You've not offered anything to this thread other than what-if's and how-about's.
> 
> You asked "In those second and third generations of dogs, is there no other dog responsible for what you see in the progeny?"
> You need to learn a little about genetics. The original poster wasn't talking about the dog being in the 3rd generation once. It's a 3-3 breeding. That means he's there twice. Without going too deeply into a genetic debate. That means that Pike's genes would have a much better likely-hood to affect the outcome of the pups as his genetic makeup would be doubled up upon. If the offspring come out looking and showing the characteristics of the dog that the 3-3 was done on, good or bad, then yes he has effected the breeding. That is why 3-3 breedings have been done in working/hunting dogs for years.
> 
> 
> As far as Pike or Asko goes (or breeding for that matter) if you have not had first hand contact with them or their offspring you have nothing to offer me as insight as I have.
> 
> Now I remember why I don't post much.


Well put Rick.


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hhhhhmmmm, just looking at the Conneforde breedings, I'd say that they were determined to get something with all of the repeat breedings. SG Bora von Grauen Stern had 28 puppies. The most noted seems to be Dingo von Conneforde. Ondra von der Kine has 28 listed also. Four of those were G rated Castor, Geppetto, Jessy. I didn't go through them all to see titles. *But I guess it goes to how many were able to trial at the regional and national levels*. Also, how many kept in Germany vs. sold to other countries. It would be interesting to see how much is attributed to Pike in 2nd and even 3rd generation breedings vs. what they got in the first generation breedings.
> 
> I don't think anyone has the opportunity to see most of these dogs in "real work" vs. trial work; or for most, even in person. But I think you do have to ask did he really stand out that much. Was there an era of prey/play only in Germany even amongst the working line dogs.
> 
> T


SAYS WHO????




Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 56 puppies and how do you decide whether Pike was a producer with these two bitches? I'm just looking at first generation. How in second and third generation breedings everyone attributes what they get to Pike and just Pike, I don't know. In those second and third generations of dogs, is there no other dog responsible for what you see in the progeny. I know certain names sell dogs. But you have the great Pike or Asko in the third generation and its Pike or Asko blood that is controlling? Can you really say that there aren't other dogs contributing through that mother line like in your example Fuchstein? Its not that deep for me one way or the other unless you have some health stats but I can't see how all the quality even in the dogs you mention above can be attributed to a drop of Pike.
> 
> T


T...If the dogs that are produced are good dogs, then you can say the dog produced good dogs...if the dogs are 2-3-4 generations down, and someone says this good dogs comes down from Pike, and it does...they are not wrong...

Not every dog that is a good dog is promoted, competed with or even well known to the general public..

I would bet there are shit ton of dogs that come down from Pike that are working as SERIOUS dogs, like police/security dogs, that no one knows about, exept the ones the know about them..

who is to say a dog is NOTABLE...just because YOU look on pedigree database and see or dont see a high level competition dog, you think that IS notable in and of itself???

I assume that not all the breedings are even ON PDB...and I also assume that there are a SHIT TON of working police and military dogs that are not on PDB, and are dogs that only are known to the people that know them...could be that some of the dogs you see with no titles, are out chewing the crap out of people....for real.

My friend breeds GSD on a small level, almost every male he has produced is a working police dog...I am quite sure that only 1 or 2 people on here have ever even heard of any of his dogs....are they good or notable???

what is the point? if people are happy with their Pike progency and dogs further down the line, and they attribute it to PIKE, wtf do you care??? my good...


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## Nicole Stark

Rick Mattox said:


> Now I remember why I don't post much.


Aw Rick, I was glad to see you post. Stick around, it'd be nice to see more of ya on here.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Rick Mattox said:


> Terrasita what is your point???????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> I just gave you a number of good dogs directly from Pike. That not good enough for you? You don't like Pike? Don't breed to anything that has him in it. Why are you here on a Pike thread? What is your goal? Which dog of yours has produced a SCH3 let alone ones that participated in the WUSV???? You've not offered anything to this thread other than what-if's and how-about's.
> 
> You asked "In those second and third generations of dogs, is there no other dog responsible for what you see in the progeny?"
> You need to learn a little about genetics. The original poster wasn't talking about the dog being in the 3rd generation once. It's a 3-3 breeding. That means he's there twice. Without going too deeply into a genetic debate. That means that Pike's genes would have a much better likely-hood to affect the outcome of the pups as his genetic makeup would be doubled up upon. If the offspring come out looking and showing the characteristics of the dog that the 3-3 was done on, good or bad, then yes he has effected the breeding. That is why 3-3 breedings have been done in working/hunting dogs for years.
> 
> 
> As far as Pike or Asko goes (or breeding for that matter) if you have not had first hand contact with them or their offspring you have nothing to offer me as insight as I have.
> 
> Now I remember why I don't post much.


First of all, I don't like or dislike Pike. The original post was a what if you did a 3-3 on Pike. The assumption is that you have a good chance of getting a Pike. I just don't think that is necessarily so. A lot of these pedigrees are scatter bred. So the question becomes whether Pike was dominant enough to produce himself in a scatter bred pedigree or linebred on himself. I think people have capitalized by saying Pike is in the pedigree but who knows what value he has in reproduction unless you have some means of tracking the progeny. Its like Pike had a monopoly on drive and seriousness. I don't know. Did he? I have a certain line of dogs I like [different breed]. Over the years I have tested a lot from this kennel and a particular sire was dominant for several traits. I have a five month old male puppy and at 9 weeks I was fairly sure he was carrying several of those sire line traits. Its a 3-3 linebreeding on that sire and more. It may be a bit much. He's a tad extreme. But I wanted a serious dog that was up to handling certain types of stock and that rather die than quit drive. They called me when they did the breeding. So trust me, I know exactly how this works. I've seen some of the Pike grandkid and great grandkid pedigrees and the dogs are advertised with direct mention to Pike. For me the sons may be the better producers. Its like looking at the Fero---Timmy, Troll situation. I picked a stud dog once because I'd seen all (4) of his litters to different bitches and lines and with everyone of them he improved on certain traits. Bred him to my bitch and yep I got those traits. For me that's a dominant producing stud dog--not breed him to every bitch on the planet and hit and miss you may get something. Who is to say which dog is that attributed to. Is Pike the only dog in that pedigree with drive and seriousness? If he has close to 700 progeny and you can name 5-10 notables and even then getting into 2nd and 3rd generations, how dominant is he and whose to say tht bitch isn't the one producing. You say by the very fact that he was used, means he was producing his traits or satisfactorily. Maybe, maybe not. 56 puppies, I would certainly hope so.

Joby, in the grand scheme of things, I don't really see titles and trials as the proving ground. In what I do, I like really looking at the untrained dog before he is conditioned. Unfortunately, a lot of these dogs are discussed in these terms and how many of them made it into the BSP and such and so. If that's the criteria and considering the big trial kennels, then lets look at that. Personally, I'd like to know more of the direct Pike progeny that were used in LE situations. If he really was a more serious type of dog, quite frankly that's a more attractive dog to me because I think too much emphasis has been on spun up prey drive that really isn't balanced. But that's another story. My interests here? If the dog is all that and not a health disaster, maybe its a direction to look into. Remember, I'm the one that started the GSD stud dog threads to get this type of discussion on dogs.

I think you are right on the first hand contact. I think Olu posed in another thread which do you feel comfortable breeding to--local boy that you have seen raised/work vs. the national trial name. I'll take the local boy that I've observed and better yet the one who has produced progeny I've been able to see. Looking at scatterbred pedigrees is tough unless you know each individual dog. 

For me this was a what if breeding discussion. Pike is just an example. You could have said stud Doodlebug and I'd have the same question. Is he dominant and what percentage of dogs does he throw that are representative of him. Period.

T


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## Don Turnipseed

I am blown away that this Pike dog is so well known and considered, by several, to be less than good breeding stock. A normal person that knows zip about GSD's might wonder how he got to be so well known if he was a washout. I can't help but think he is being compared to some non existent wonder dog. I would think the fact that since everyone knows exactly who he is says he is better than most dogs.....just not the imaginary wonder dog maybe. Maybe Rick was right and he is too muich dog. That in itself would make him less than what most are looking for. Less may be more.


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## Tiago Fontes

Rick Mattox said:


> Terrasita what is your point???????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> I just gave you a number of good dogs directly from Pike. That not good enough for you? You don't like Pike? Don't breed to anything that has him in it. Why are you here on a Pike thread? What is your goal? Which dog of yours has produced a SCH3 let alone ones that participated in the WUSV???? You've not offered anything to this thread other than what-if's and how-about's.
> 
> You asked "In those second and third generations of dogs, is there no other dog responsible for what you see in the progeny?"
> You need to learn a little about genetics. The original poster wasn't talking about the dog being in the 3rd generation once. It's a 3-3 breeding. That means he's there twice. Without going too deeply into a genetic debate. That means that Pike's genes would have a much better likely-hood to affect the outcome of the pups as his genetic makeup would be doubled up upon. If the offspring come out looking and showing the characteristics of the dog that the 3-3 was done on, good or bad, then yes he has effected the breeding. That is why 3-3 breedings have been done in working/hunting dogs for years.
> 
> 
> As far as Pike or Asko goes (or breeding for that matter) if you have not had first hand contact with them or their offspring you have nothing to offer me as insight as I have.
> 
> Now I remember why I don't post much.


 
Nice post, again. 

I personally know of some tight Pike linebreeding which have produced several working police dogs... In fact, when I see some of the traits these dogs possess, I wonder why more people arent considering them. But as Rick wisely pointed out, perhaps they are too much dog for handlers wanting to compete at high level and demanding precision. 

I would rather see these dogs getting KNPV certifications instead of SchH. Whenever I see a GSD getting KNPV certified, I give the dog and its handler a lot of credit. 


Regards


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## Daryl Ehret

The tight linebreeding I knew of (2-2 I think it was) that resulted in a whole litter of dysplastic dogs was enough to direct my attention away from his lines. But, by third or fourth generation, that scenario can change, provided the descendents were selected specifically for the better known outward traits found in Pike lines. So, yes, "other dogs are responsible for what you see in the progeny", and that can be of benefit to salvage what HE contributed.


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## Stefan Schaub

I owened 3 pike kids out of diffrent females,all with diffrent problems,nerves gripps and health.what do you know about conneforde??sorry!!why does people make repeat breedings direkt in the next heat??did they than all ready know how the dogs turn out.you talk about real dogs,how can someone see what is good in a 4 month old pup,how hard,agressions and more?? pike was popular and it was easy to sell puppies, but on the end not a lot of dogs are out there.you bring up dusty and giddeon, did you know the moms?i do not think so.both females more than great!!and please do not try to tell me what i have may be seen or not.for sure i have work mor pike kids grandkids and 1000 of other dogs than someone here and know what i talk about.compare pike and troll offspring or with yoschy or nick or asko.for sure you find more dogs of typ what you like.

note!!there is a reason that so many dogs out of my kennel are in diffrent breeding programs!!think about that before atak me


Rick Mattox said:


> So Stefan you're saying that a big name like Conneforde only breeds to what's close. Yeah right. And Jabina? You don't get much bigger in the sport and his breedings were spread out. So he knew what he was getting and liked it. There are good ones out there off/down from Gideon, Cay, Dingo, Dasty and his son Hessel. Most of these dogs produced GSD's that the average handler in the sport today couldn't handle. NO, that's not because of the dogs. It's because the ability of the handlers has decreased. Many trainer's today can get their dogs to do just about anything. But they want that EXTREME play drive dog that only bites the sleeve because it's a game of tug and acts like a Golden Retriever. But they want him to looks like a GSD on the outside. Might be good for points. But many aren't the dog that is going to protect you, your family or property, if you need it. To me that's not a GSD. That's why the judges are instructed to judge the bite work differently under the new rules. I hope we get back to the old ways where the dog that does the routine correctly but shows no intensity or power can't V.
> 
> If you are posting here because of the dogs/offspring you've actually seen, in person,( not on the net) and you don't like it. Fine don't use it. If you are posting here because of the dogs you've actually owned or seen in person(because you've seen them in real working situations)not just on a trial field. And like it. I'm with you.
> 
> That is my final thought and post on this thread, as it's been played out.
> 
> Good luck


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## Stefan Schaub

Sorry!something more,Pikes line have not survive in Jabinas mother line!!why??also not in Karthagos mother line.it is not a thing what some one like or not.it must be on paper and there is not a lot.


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## Rick Mattox

T says; "Over the years I have tested a lot from this kennel and a particular sire was dominant for several traits. I have a five month old male puppy and at 9 weeks I was fairly sure he was carrying several of those sire line traits. Its a 3-3 linebreeding on that sire and more... So trust me, I know exactly how this works."

So if you KNOW than what's with the question; can't it be others in the ped that are bringing out the qualities? YOU ALREADY KNOW HOW IT WORKS.


STEFAN i'm sorry if you thought I was attacking you. I wasn't. If you re-read the last part of the post you quoted it says. "If you are posting here because of the dogs/offspring you've actually seen, in person,( not on the net) and you don't like it. Fine don't use it. If you are posting here because of the dogs you've actually owned or seen in person(because you've seen them in real working situations)not just on a trial field. And like it. I'm with you."

That part was for everyone. You've had been speaking from experience and first hand knowledge. That's what the OP was looking for. That's when the info. is valuable. Whether or not it is favorable to the dog in question.


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> I owened 3 pike kids out of diffrent females,all with diffrent problems,nerves gripps and health.what do you know about conneforde??sorry!!why does people make repeat breedings direkt in the next heat??did they than all ready know how the dogs turn out.you talk about real dogs,how can someone see what is good in a 4 month old pup,how hard,agressions and more?? pike was popular and it was easy to sell puppies, but on the end not a lot of dogs are out there.you bring up dusty and giddeon, did you know the moms?i do not think so.both females more than great!!and please do not try to tell me what i have may be seen or not.for sure i have work mor pike kids grandkids and 1000 of other dogs than someone here and know what i talk about.compare pike and troll offspring or with yoschy or nick or asko.for sure you find more dogs of typ what you like.
> 
> note!!there is a reason that so many dogs out of my kennel are in diffrent breeding programs!!think about that before atak me


 
But dont you think the same holds true to any stud dog? If you take inferior bitches, are you expecting the stud to improve her? I dont...

Most people focus on the stud and seem to forget that you must take the female into consideration. This is why I think it is not fair to say a stud dog does not produce himself, if inferior females are being used. 

In my opinion, it is only fair to say a stud dog does not produce well, if you take excellent proven females and the offspring come out weak. This is why, although a linebreeding on Pike is my preference, I have not forgotten the female side of the equation and wanted to have the opinion of more experienced folks. 

Regards


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Rick Mattox said:


> T says; "Over the years I have tested a lot from this kennel and a particular sire was dominant for several traits. I have a five month old male puppy and at 9 weeks I was fairly sure he was carrying several of those sire line traits. Its a 3-3 linebreeding on that sire and more... So trust me, I know exactly how this works."
> 
> So if you KNOW than what's with the question; can't it be others in the ped that are bringing out the qualities? YOU ALREADY KNOW HOW IT WORKS.


The stud dogs I've referenced were dominant for producing certain traits and it didn't matter what you bred them to--hence the prepotent stud term. In my case, no, others in the pedigree can't and don't contribute. I've been trying to figure out WHAT is Pike dominant for producing. He's known for as many positive traits as negatives. You mention certain good dogs but that doesn't tell me that Pike was the producer in the equation. With a couple of these Pike could be the negative. Gideon Gardenfense has a mother Bora that was KNPV out of a multiple generation KNPV pedigree. He was returned to the breeder as handler sensitive [I realize that gets into examining the training] but there's just as much out there tht says Pike was noted for producing handler aggressive. You go to a stud dog to bring in the traits that you want and not to hurt you in other areas. If you are after certain traits you want the dog that is dominant for producing them. If you have to play clean up afterwards, then sometimes you wonder if it was worth it. Dogs can be dominant for unwanted traits just as much as the desired traits. 

As for Conneforde, I was trying to figure out how do you get what appeared to be 8 litters out of a bitch. Even if you are a breeding a kennel there is such a thing as too much of something and getting yourself into a hole. It was like there was mission to pump out Pike puppies. For what/who? I'm curious as to the pedigree that Daryl mentions. 

You can breed to a nice bitch but is she and what's behind her strong enough to override the stud's negative traits. If she isn't, does that make her inferior? Years ago a friend calls me and says she is going to breed to a certain stud dog. He's an okay dog--a little fluffy brained for my taste and not my type of pooch but okay. He's also representative of a line that I really just don't like as far as mental working traits are concerned. He was bred to a good bitch from what I could tell. Trouble was, the litter had a genetic feral type spooky puppy. The breeder called me at 3 weeks and later to look at her. They never could "fix" her. So I tell my friend--don't go there and why. She says nahhhhh, she wants certain physical traits that his line is known for producing. My question was why risk getting spooks. She said her bitches were strong enough mentally to take care of that and its an outcross. Her bitches are strong. I owned one and worked others. Long and the short of it---she got genetic spooks and other temperament issues. Scroll forward, I work a dog in a clinic and see some nice things and ask how he is bred. I can't believe the sire is from the spooky fluffy brained line. I've never gotten anything to work out of that line in testing dogs for people. So that makes me think--find out who his mother is. Surprise surprise, its the bitch line that one of my puppies is out of that are really strong mentally. The sire has been bred out the whazzoo and I'm sure they'll say you can get working dogs out of him. Somebody might even think that they are going to go do a 3-3 breeding on him and get hot shot working dogs. Maybe they will if the 3-3 brings in the right bitches. But the 3-3 on those bitches had better be dominant enough to overide the 3-3 on that sire.


T


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