# My Dog Whiskey and I - Headed for a Showdown



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

My three and a half year old male Dutchie is trying to take over, little by little, the dominant role in the family. As some of you are aware I am fighting a serious medical condition. I have been out of the training loop for about 6 months and been away from home a good part of the time. Added to that is I can barely speak.

Whiskey recognizes my weakened status. He is slow to respond to commands and bitches (growls) when he doesn't like what he has been told to do. He has always done that too some extent but it is much more prevalent now than other times.

He has not tried to go beyond these limits, YET. But I've owned dogs my whole life and feel it is just a matter of time before he goes for a bite. 

I have not figured out exactly how I am going to solve the situation yet. Normally I would pull out the ecollar or prong but he won't act up if he has them on. He is totally collar wise. I am aware that I have to stage this so I win the first time.

Thoughts?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The dog is a little ***. If he is good when the collars are on, and acts like he is a tough guy when they are off, I would probably beat his furry ass retarded for growling at me. ( well, not probably, the dog would be walking funny first time.)

Basco did this shit, and was surprised as **** when he was on his back. He is a vocal dog, and some of the growling is a trained behavior, like if I point at him. However, it is a BS vocalization and you can see it. When he growled at me for taking the toy away, he got it. Hard. THat is sorta my suggestion if you are up to it. 

Pain in the ass dogs.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dog is a little ***. If he is good when the collars are on, and acts like he is a tough guy when they are off, I would probably beat his furry ass retarded for growling at me. ( well, not probably, the dog would be walking funny first time.)
> 
> Basco did this shit, and was surprised as **** when he was on his back. He is a vocal dog, and some of the growling is a trained behavior, like if I point at him. However, it is a BS vocalization and you can see it. When he growled at me for taking the toy away, he got it. Hard. THat is sorta my suggestion if you are up to it.
> 
> Pain in the ass dogs.


I'm pretty sure I can handle that. I wish I had the voice to back up the commotion when the shit hits the fan. It would be so much more effective, I think. I gotta be careful because I have this damn trach (breathing) tube stuck in my neck.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm pretty sure I can handle that. I wish I had the voice to back up the commotion when the shit hits the fan. It would be so much more effective, I think. I gotta be careful because I have this damn trach (breathing) tube stuck in my neck.



Are you strong enough to hang him up?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Are you strong enough to hang him up?


I thought about that. He is a 80 pound Dutchie but I can stage this where I fling a leash over a stair handrail. I have to check to see how he acts with just a leash, no prong or ecollar.

I have to do this when everyone is gone. The "old lady" gets a bit perturbed when I string up the dog.:lol:


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Lee,

I had the same problem with my male GSD, I was travelling for awhile and taking my other male with me. He was getting all pissy when I would get home and started acting up, giving me the finger basically and I had enough when I walked in the door to teeth and growling. I tried hanging him on the prong for a week and things just got worse, flipping him on his back just ended in a fight as did other methods I won't mention. Someone told me to control him in the house with obedience. If he started acting up I would put him in the middle of the living room in the stand position and leave him there for 5-10 minutes, then changed the position again 5-10 minutes. I wouldn't say a word to him unless he broke position and I didn't praise him for staying in position either. 

For his perticular personality this worked best for me.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

There are lines to be drawn in the sand & I really know how to enforce the lines.... But, the answer isn't always force. Growling is a warning & I wouldn't try to eliminate the growling because the next move will be attack without the warning.

When you have a genetically tough, dominant, aggressive dog, you aren't going to change his attitude-you can raise aggression thresholds but that's about it. You need to compromise-that doesn't mean you walk around on eggshells. Don't make it personal because he'll view you as a challenger not a leader.

You need to form a relationship, learn how to communicate with him what you want without impatience and anger because he is going to respond with anger in turn & that means BITE. This is why many aggressive superior GSDs never do well in obedience phase. You don't have a Poindexter-you have Mike Tyson.

With a dog like this you need to be calm, assured, CONSISTENT & friendly-he'll come around. Learn how to communicate with him!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I wouldnt wait for the dog to take his time and at some point confront me....id search it out and then confront him instead...he doesnt get to pick the time or place...that gives him the benefit and leaves you up shit creek...challenge him and put him down is what id do...i wouldnt go and wait for him to find you at your weakest moment and take advantage


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I've seen this numerous times--a dog is confused & doesn't understand what is expected of him so the handler corrects the sh!t out of him thinking he's disobeying. This happens all the time without the dog ever being taught what you want from him & even though he's not a dominant dog he eventually attacks the handler. What happens next depends-he's either put down immediately, given horrendous unfair corrections that will make him fear his owner but eventually it almost always comes down to that the dog is put down when this doesn't have to happen.


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

There are two methods of effectively dealing with this IMHO, hard corrections or obedience/structure.

I would only recommend harsh corrections if you are feeling well enough to back them up. You know how fit you are at the moment Lee and only you know if you can 'take on' the dog. If he is as you suspect "sensing weakness", are you prepared for him to potentially shrug off the correction and lunge at you?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How many of you posting have really ever dealt with a dog like this ? Some of you sound like you had a minor problem, and it grew from there.

I have never dealt with this problem any other way than beating the dog. Sorry, just haven't. I figure I will either kill them, or they will figure out who is going to be in charge. The dogs challenged me on the leash and prong, off the leash, but never just because.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

How is the dog getting on with 'the old lady'? Has she been looking after him when you've been gone?


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I have Jeff and in honesty I deal with that crap the same way that you would. 

However the person doing the correcting needs to be physically capable of following it through if needed.

Obedience/structure is not as effective and takes longer but it is an option Lee should know about before making his decision. Sometimes you have to pick your battles - this is not one that can be lost by the human.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

This dog will not be put down or anything like that. I had and still do have control. He does sense a change in me. He senses a weakness that wasn't there before. The weakness he sees is real and accurate at this time. It is something new for him because it never was there before.

I believe he is thinking about challenging my position. At this moment it doesn't appear critical but it does need to end. I understand I need to choose the time and place for this confrontation.

I have had him since a young pup. Our relationship is strong and that is why I believe I haven't been all out challenged yet. There is probably some confusion going on. I spent almost full time with him until I got sick. Then suddenly I'm gone for days at a time.

I appreciate the suggestions. I will carefully consider how I am going to approach this.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I seriously doubt the dog is confused one bit...ofcourse you can change his attitude...what else would you do ? talk to him and play paddycakes ? try to convince him to be your best friend ? ofcourse you want a relationship with your dog...one where he understands that theres one person in charge and theres a dog that follows the lead and nothing else....going about avoiding the issue isnt going to help...i agree you shouldnt get angry, upset, pissed of or yell since emotions wont do anything to improve the situation but i will stay with the fact that you need to confront the challenge head on and then put the dog firmly in its place...forcefully if needed...no pussyfooting around the issue and ignoring the growling...

theres one thing we need to keep in mind here...the dog is starting to get a clue here that his owner isnt as strong as he used to be and hes taking advantage of that....have I been there ? owyeahhhh more then once....strongwilled dogs will zero in on weekness quicker then on a bunny with a sock on its head and they will take advantage of the situation quicker then you think....my former dog casper decided after my shoudlersurgery that it was time to test the limits and see if he could get the better of me...hurt me pretty damn bad in the process but hey....he didnt walk straigt for a week and never did try it again...

btw i ment put down and in give him a right ole asskicking he will remember....


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> How is the dog getting on with 'the old lady'? Has she been looking after him when you've been gone?


There is zero conflict or confusion with who is in charge when I am here. My wife has been taking care off both my dogs while I have been gone. That involves nothing more than food , water and letting them in and out. She doesn't get involved with the dogs otherwise. 

They do take advantage of her which is part of the reason for this poor behavior.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Give Lee a break, I reckon he knows his dog here and understands what's going on. I think the dog WILL be confused and not happy...Lee did say there was a strong relationship there. I don't think bully and force is the only way of sorting shit out...it may well be in this case, but I doubt Lee will need anyone to impress that on him should that be the case.

That figures Lee, just noticed your post.

Just my 1/2p.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I seriously doubt the dog is confused one bit...ofcourse you can change his attitude...what else would you do ? talk to him and play paddycakes ? try to convince him to be your best friend ? ofcourse you want a relationship with your dog...one where he understands that theres one person in charge and theres a dog that follows the lead and nothing else....going about avoiding the issue isnt going to help...i agree you shouldnt get angry, upset, pissed of or yell since emotions wont do anything to improve the situation but i will stay with the fact that you need to confront the challenge head on and then put the dog firmly in its place...forcefully if needed...no pussyfooting around the issue and ignoring the growling...
> 
> theres one thing we need to keep in mind here...the dog is starting to get a clue here that his owner isnt as strong as he used to be and hes taking advantage of that....have I been there ? owyeahhhh more then once....strongwilled dogs will zero in on weekness quicker then on a bunny with a sock on its head and they will take advantage of the situation quicker then you think....my former dog casper decided after my shoudlersurgery that it was time to test the limits and see if he could get the better of me...hurt me pretty damn bad in the process but hey....he didnt walk straigt for a week and never did try it again...
> 
> btw i ment put down and in give him a right ole asskicking he will remember....


You are spot on Alice. He sees the change. Because I'm retired these dogs spent all their time with me. I was healthy during all these times we spent together until 6 months ago. It has been a steady decline and the male sees it plain as mud.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Lee, I watched a similar situation unfold with my father and his dick of a GSD mix a few years ago (though admittedly probably not as much dog as the one you have). Same kind of thing happened, Dad got sick and spent a bunch of time at the hospital and coming and going for procedures and ended up with a trach tube. Still has it several years later and will never get rid of it.

Anyway...the dog acted a fool for several weeks. He challenged my Dad repeatedly and got real rough about it. My Dad finally kicked his ass and the dog's behavior improved, though if I remember correctly there were a few minor altercations for a brief period afterwards when the dog thought about maybe trying it again.

Originally my Dad's inability to talk presented an issue with the dogs and the other animals. But it was pretty cool to watch over time as he (and the animals) learned how to communicate in other ways.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

You have owned this dog since he was a pup, he knows what is expected of him, it is not like it is a newer dog you just got...he is not confused.

If and when the time comes, do not leave anything for him to doubt in his mind Lee, that is my only advice.

If you are to weak physically, and you think he might really try something, I would recommend keeping a heavy cane close by.

Keep us updated. Wish you well with your recovery...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> You have owned this dog since he was a pup, he knows what is expected of him, it is not like it is a newer dog you just got...he is not confused.


There is a change in his owner, a change to his life and routine, and all manner of other subtle changes taking place. The dog is an animal, not a pre programmed machine....why would he not be confused?

I would think the main issue is communication....that is what is changing, or the manner of it, no?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

lee, you're thinking the same way i would be: Whiskey knows things are different, he thinks he may get to be top dog. set him up to fail, and i would do it soon. your lack of voice may actually be a boon--no yelling, just calm "i'm the boss and i WILL kick your ass" ....

i think the main thing is to set it up so he loses and you win (cheating is ok here given your health!!). call in the cavalry for help if you need it to set it up.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Ok Lee, you've been out of the loop for 6 months while your dog had no training or interaction & you think he should just magically know exactly how to act after being kenneled for 6 months. It's not like he was totally trained when you left, he was too young. Don't you think it's unreasonable to start planning on beating him?

Dogs don't seek conflict--if you're using the e-collar or pinch your dog should respond-if he doesn't he's either confused or...he's a dominant, hard sob & you're not going to get very far by beating him unless you feel like beating him on a regular basis after you've been bitten.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> There is a change in his owner, a change to his life and routine, and all manner of other subtle changes taking place. The dog is an animal, not a pre programmed machine....why would he not be confused?
> 
> I would think the main issue is communication....that is what is changing, or the manner of it, no?


I don't know Lee or his dog, Lee knows himself and his dog.
He obviously is very concerned about this or he wouldn't have posted it.
In his words, he has had a very strong willful dog that has subtly tested him throughout its life, and he was able to keep the balancing act in his favor,now he is weak. 

The dog knows he is weak and is now actively testing him, the *confusion* is that the dog is unclear if Lee is strong enough to keep him in place anymore..he is not a pre-programmed machine, but he might be a dog that is pre-programmed to assert himself over the weak.

What would YOU recommend for Lee to do to improve his communication with his dog?
If the dog attacks Lee, how should he communicate with him?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I don't know Lee or his dog, Lee knows himself and his dog.
> He obviously is very concerned about this or he wouldn't have posted it.
> In his words, he has had a very strong willful dog that has subtly tested him throughout its life, and he was able to keep the balancing act in his favor,now he is weak.
> 
> ...


Well Joby, if the picture is that as you have painted, Lee is going to be busy for quite a while beating his dog into a more submissive state....only positive way forward I see is a rehome into a job for the dog if that is the case! jmo


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

when are you people going to understand!

a dog is not a human and doesnt think like a human...his nature dictates to him to be an oportunist and to better his situation should the chance present itself....in this case the chance has presented and the dog responds naturally by testing the limits and boundries...

a small example to bring my point across: 18 years, 11 dogs and 41 surgeries equals 41 challenges put to me every bloody surgery i went through and had to recover from and every frikkin time the very same problem presented itself...its nature at its finest...dont bring human nature into it coze it simply dont belong there


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Well Joby, if the picture is that as you have painted, Lee is going to be busy for quite a while beating his dog into a more submissive state....only positive way forward I see is a rehome into a job for the dog if that is the case! jmo



has nothong to do with submissive Maggie  its about telling the dog in no uncertain terms that this is the way the wind blows...it doesnt mean a beatdown festival on the drop of a hat...it means lee has to set straight to the dog that he is still the one in charge and challenges will be dealt with....


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> when are you people going to understand!
> 
> a dog is not a human and doesnt think like a human...his nature dictates to him to be an oportunist and to better his situation should the chance present itself....in this case the chance has presented and the dog responds naturally by testing the limits and boundries...
> 
> a small example to bring my point across: 18 years, 11 dogs and 41 surgeries equals 41 challenges put to me every bloody surgery i went through and had to recover from and every frikkin time the very same problem presented itself...its nature at its finest...dont bring human nature into it coze it simply dont belong there


No-one is bringing in human nature Alice, if Lee had a challenging balancing act whilst he was fit and healthy, he's going to be getting pretty tired isn't he if dogs are such frightening and opportunistic creatures as painted here.

You may well be right, I'm not arguing the case only that of which the dog may be experiencing confusion in this time.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I don't know Lee or his dog, Lee knows himself and his dog.
> He obviously is very concerned about this or he wouldn't have posted it.
> In his words, he has had a very strong willful dog that has subtly tested him throughout its life, and he was able to keep the balancing act in his favor,now he is weak.
> 
> ...


I would suggest Michael Ellis Marker Training or Kayce Cover Bridge & Target-remember, dogs don't speak English-you have to communicate with them so they understand what you want. I've used Bridge & Target for 10 years & it's worked on every single dog I ever trained no matter what temperament. If you watch the "stand" video I just posted I'm bridging Quinn & you can see he's listening intently to me & obeying until I release him.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> has nothong to do with submissive Maggie  its about telling the dog in no uncertain terms that this is the way the wind blows...it doesnt mean a beatdown festival on the drop of a hat...it means lee has to set straight to the dog that he is still the one in charge and challenges will be dealt with....


For how long Alice? Think before you answer. Lee may or may not continue with his usual strength which may call for a different mode of communication to the dog that he is in charge.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Can you possibly get him back into training, some bite work to see if his routine has changed and let his frustration out. Control his behavior some, doing outs and rebites. Heeling, etc..

Maybe leave his E-collar and pinch on for a while during the day when you are in contact with him. You may be able to avoid anything physical at all if he is fine with those cues on. I wouldn't side step the fight indefinitely, but if OB and collar cues keep him in line until you are sure you can handle him, I'd avoid it until then.

I had a big mal that I was sure could take me in a fight on the grass. I would have been out of work for a while at least if he would have come after me. I did detection with him for a while. Got control of little things first and then bigger things as I went. I used OB and control in bitework and got through 2.5 years with him and only a couple fights early on.

Oh, and if you decide to set him up for a fight....Slick floors are your friend. Slows his reaction time way down, it is like he is fighting in slow motion, until he learns to run on his pads. Even the odds however you can...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> when are you people going to understand!
> 
> a dog is not a human and doesnt think like a human...his nature dictates to him to be an oportunist and to better his situation should the chance present itself....in this case the chance has presented and the dog responds naturally by testing the limits and boundries...
> 
> a small example to bring my point across: 18 years, 11 dogs and 41 surgeries equals 41 challenges put to me every bloody surgery i went through and had to recover from and every frikkin time the very same problem presented itself...its nature at its finest...dont bring human nature into it coze it simply dont belong there



If you were divorced 41 times and I needed marital advice....I would ask someone else...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

The dog's whole world changed suddenly. I went from his daily active caregiver, trainer and playmate to either gone or sick and speechless besides. While all the other medical crap is going on I pull my back out and have been walking with a cane taking baby steps for three and a half weeks. I haven't even been able to brush or feed him. 

He does understand what is expected. But things are very different right now. In addition, as might be expected, the whole family unit is very stressed which doesn't help matters. 

Oddly enough the female, Carly, seems totally unfazed by any of this other than I can tell she is dieing to play with the Chuck It with me.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> If you were divorced 41 times and I needed marital advice....I would ask someone else...



LOL...and i wouldnt blame you one bit!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> LOL...and i wouldnt blame you one bit!



I read that wrong. I thought your dogs had put you in the hospital 41 times....lol


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> when are you people going to understand!
> 
> a dog is not a human and doesnt think like a human...his nature dictates to him to be an oportunist and to better his situation should the chance present itself....in this case the chance has presented and the dog responds naturally by testing the limits and boundries...
> 
> a small example to bring my point across: 18 years, 11 dogs and 41 surgeries equals 41 challenges put to me every bloody surgery i went through and had to recover from and every frikkin time the very same problem presented itself...its nature at its finest...dont bring human nature into it coze it simply dont belong there


Hey Alice, that just proves what I said to Lee "if he's a dominant, hard sob & you're not going to get very far by beating him unless you feel like beating him on a regular basis after you've been bitten."


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I don't know Lee or his dog, Lee knows himself and his dog.
> He obviously is very concerned about this or he wouldn't have posted it.
> In his words, he has had a very strong willful dog that has subtly tested him throughout its life, and he was able to keep the balancing act in his favor,now he is weak.
> 
> ...


That is the type confusion I meant. Added to that while I have been gone for treatments the dog rules the roost. My with doesn't have a clue about how to handle a strong dog.

Then I show up for varying lengths of time is a weakened state and try to take over again.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Ok, I read it wrong-I thought he was 1 1/2 years old. But, the same advice goes.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> I would suggest Michael Ellis Marker Training or Kayce Cover Bridge & Target-remember, dogs don't speak English-you have to communicate with them so they understand what you want. I've used Bridge & Target for 10 years & it's worked on every single dog I ever trained no matter what temperament. If you watch the "stand" video I just posted I'm bridging Quinn & you can see he's listening intently to me & obeying until I release him.


please explain the marker method for an older dog that is taking advantage of your weakness, and ignoring commands that he used to obey, and responding with aggressive behavior?

How does this system work?
Lee's situation sounds like a far different picture than a dog that is marker trained from puppyhood, remembering a behavior when he is older and choosing to do it. What is the terminal bridge that he should use when the dog bites him?

If lee is so physically weak from battling a life threatening disease, that his dog is thinking about coming at him... I highly doubt he has a lot of energy and time to start marker training, with said defiant adult dominant male dog...

seriously....can someone describe how this system will work in the Lee's case...specifically explain it.

this is a story, not a solution to lee's problems...but may have some relevance.

Everyone likes to compare dogs to wolves...I had a friend that raised a pack of wolves on his property for over 25 yrs.
He did not try to train them, he did like to go out in the woods with them. He carried an axe handle with him..And each male in the pack decided to come for him, at some point. He beat each down with the axe handle decisively, no wolf ever challenged him more than once, except the first one, he was not decisive enough the first time that one came for him.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I knew of a guy that raised a wild wolf from a cub and later a pack, the male wolf attacked him over a misunderstanding, it took a year to rebuild the trust, that wolf never attacked him again for it's life. he never raised a hand to it! Bullshit story Joby, you're getting excited again!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I knew of a guy that raised a wild wolf from a cub and later a pack, the male wolf attacked him over a misunderstanding, it took a year to rebuild the trust, that wolf never attacked him again for it's life. he never raised a hand to it! Bullshit story Joby, you're getting excited again!


Maggie not bullshit...that is good for your friend. What was the misunderstanding? Why waste a year trying to build trust with a wild animal? 

I dont think my friend was interested in building trust, he was interested in his own safety. He did not try to be their buddies or get into any situations that would cause a misunderstanding, he did not raise them, he just figured since it was his property, he should be able to walk it when he wanted to, wolves or no wolves.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby, it is not relevant.

Maybe ask Lee why he has his dogs, and if trust is relevant?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Can you possibly get him back into training, some bite work to see if his routine has changed and let his frustration out. Control his behavior some, doing outs and rebites. Heeling, etc..
> 
> Maybe leave his E-collar and pinch on for a while during the day when you are in contact with him. You may be able to avoid anything physical at all if he is fine with those cues on. I wouldn't side step the fight indefinitely, but if OB and collar cues keep him in line until you are sure you can handle him, I'd avoid it until then.
> 
> ...


That would be my first preference, Dave. We still have a couple of kids in school, me running back and forth to doctor appointments and a distant hospital it just isn't possible at this time.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Joby, it is not relevant.
> 
> Maybe ask Lee why he has his dogs, and if trust is relevant?


That is a good thing you said that, this post is not for us to argue about your friend that likes to play with wolves...

I do not think this a matter of trust, I think it is a matter of respect. 

The only advice I have for Lee is to make sure he has his cane, if the dog decides to come for him, for his own safety. As I said I don't know Lee or his dog..but would hate for Lee to be caught helpless if something did occur.


Why don't you describe exactly what you would do in Lee's position? Instead of using vague terminology...such as lack of communication..


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I fear Whiskey believes he holds all the cards now. Not only have you been gone for awhile and the pack dynamic has changed...you returned in a weakened state that the dog can obviously see you are physically unimposing due to your affliction. To top it off, the dog confirms what he sees with his nose. He knows for a fact your are physically ill and not quite in the position to meet his challenge. I have to agree with the others here who suggest physically nipping this in the bud if you are up to it. It's only a matter of time when the dog will just go for it and I'm afraid your safety is going to be severely compromised. Keep a pistol handy Lee. Seriously.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lee, make the fight easier on yourself and keep this in your pocket.
http://www.aaa-safetyfirst.com/stunmaster775.htm

800,000 volts, and you won't have to throw one kick.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Lee, make the fight easier on yourself and keep this in your pocket.
> http://www.aaa-safetyfirst.com/stunmaster775.htm
> 
> 800,000 volts, and you won't have to throw one kick.


No need to think about neutering after a shot with that!!:grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I want to hear all the clicker people tell me the story of the dog that challenged them. I love to hear these stories. Never owned a dog capable of killing them, but sure, bust out the marker training. That will fix it.

God gave us opposable thumbs so we could hold a two by four and wack a dog that is threatening us stupid. Most of the advice here is retarded. 

I find that it is a HUGE character flaw in a dog that he looks at his owner like this. I am not a person that will put up with crap like that from a pet. I don't give two shits about this that or the other. If there was a relationship, it is now gone, and the dog is going to die. I have had a lot of different arguements over different things with a dog, but I have yet to have had one decide because I was sick, that they would take advantage. The same dogs that tried to bite the shit out of me would never consider hurting me, or "challenging" me because I was on the ground, or sick. 

What happens with the happy marker training when the dog decides to challenge him for ALL the food ? I guess no one thought of that.

Lee has enough going on in his life. Grab the 2x4 and get it over with, one way or the other.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee,

You know your dog and you know your current physical limitations.
Internet advise to kick your dogs ass is going to get you hurt and
the dog put down. There are a lot more effective ways to establish
pack order and your superiority. You can over power a challenging dog or out smart him. Good Luck


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I want to hear all the clicker people tell me the story of the dog that challenged them. I love to hear these stories. Never owned a dog capable of killing them, but sure, bust out the marker training. That will fix it.
> 
> God gave us opposable thumbs so we could hold a two by four and wack a dog that is threatening us stupid. Most of the advice here is retarded.
> 
> ...


I'm not ready to say character flaw yet. At this moment he has not shown any aggression towards me other than be vocal. I don't like that his short vocal demonstrations have accelerated while I have been in a weakened state. I do believe it is time to end the problem in case he decides to take it further.

I WILL say character flaw and put him down if he decides to fight when the confrontation comes. I could be wrong and I will be prepared but I believe he will cave immediately.

Other than that I look at it as a kid trying to take advantage of a situation until you box his ears.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Thomas, you had such good luck with Sandor, and he was not even a mean dog. LOL I heard he bit you, as well as all the other Dobermann people that saw him. Never had a problem with him. Guess how it was dealt with ? 

If life was different, he would be here with me instead of dead. Good dog, bad ideas about how to deal with this.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Lee,
> 
> You know your dog and you know your current physical limitations.
> Internet advise to kick your dogs ass is going to get you hurt and
> ...


ELABORATE PLEASE. I'm all ears.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Lee,

I think it is smart of you to realize what is going on with this dog. I would start intensive OB work with the dog. Just use the e-collar everyday on him and put him in some down stays and start controlling every action of the dog. At least with the ecollar, you do not have to use physical force.

You make the dog mind for a couple of months and he will be much more respectful to you.


I have picked a fight with a dog before and realized afterwards that I did not have to go there. I could have dealt with the situation easier. The important thing is to be able correct without injury to yourself. I think that is why it may be best to keep the ecollar on the dog everyday. 

I do think some people do not realize what it is like to deal with these types of dogs. If you have some dog guard an object or person or challenge you then the dog has to be dealt with it and quickly. I want the dog to know that it is unacceptable to challenge me. I'm not looking to abuse the dog but at the same time I'm not going to put up with any nonsense from the dog either.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> ELABORATE PLEASE. I'm all ears.



HI Lee,

Sue Miller has had some very good suggestions. Simple stuff.
Giving him basic obedience commands before he gets fed or gets anything else he wants. I suspect your dog likes you. A hard eye or a stern look would likely do more good then trying to kick his ass.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jack Roberts said:


> Lee,
> 
> I think it is smart of you to realize what is going on with this dog. I would start intensive OB work with the dog. Just use the e-collar everyday on him and put him in some down stays and start controlling every action of the dog. At least with the ecollar, you do not have to use physical force.
> 
> ...


Good advice...

My .02 in addition...since the dog is collarwise, be mindful when you go to put the collar on the dog...and still carry that cane...

still waiting to hear about the marker training.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Thomas, you had such good luck with Sandor, and he was not even a mean dog. LOL I heard he bit you, as well as all the other Dobermann people that saw him. Never had a problem with him. Guess how it was dealt with ?
> 
> If life was different, he would be here with me instead of dead. Good dog, bad ideas about how to deal with this.


Jeff,

I have ZERO interest in any discussion with you but your post above is NONSENSE. I was never bit by Sandor. I went to Dorothy's house to look at him and found a young male with bad manners. I offered to take him with me to training twice a week and work with him. Dorothy decided to send him out of state for a board and train. He was then send to another board and train in another state, where he was put down. IF your training had been effective Dorothy would not have needed to explore other options.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Lee,
> 
> You know your dog and you know your current physical limitations.
> Internet advise to kick your dogs ass is going to get you hurt and
> ...


Examples please. 800,000 volts to the bottom of the chin. Just imagine what would run through that dogs mind when Lee gives it a love tap without effort!

D


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lee, I'm agreeing with Dave and others. I think most of this is stemming not just from him sensing he can challenge you but because he's not being worked. Don't pick a fight with a dog you can't win. You as the smarter critter shouldn't have to. You have WAAAAY more important things to worry about than your dog taking a chunk out of you. Honestly, if you can't work him and he's becoming a liability at least partially because he's not being mentally stimulated, rehome him. Maybe just temporarily so at least he can be worked a bit, then hopefully he can come back when you're feeling better. Good luck...


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Jack Roberts said:


> Lee,
> 
> I think it is smart of you to realize what is going on with this dog. I would start intensive OB work with the dog. Just use the e-collar everyday on him and put him in some down stays and start controlling every action of the dog. At least with the ecollar, you do not have to use physical force.
> 
> ...


I hope you aren't saying that the e-collar would be enough to stop the dog if he seriously goes for the owner? Because I have had a moment, butting heads with my normally nice respectful good-boy mal, when it became perfectly clear that he could ignore the stim from a Dogtra on the highest level and didn't bite only because he liked me.

And yes, it was a moment when I was very sick and he decided for himself OB was optional... 

The e-collar is more impersonal than laying hands on the dog or leash correction, and less likely to provoke a fight for that reason.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: IF your training had been effective Dorothy would not have needed to explore other options.

She wanted a BH on the dog. I didn't want to do it. So, my training worked fine. He never bit her. I have no idea what the other people did to him. I told the last guy what I would do, and he ignored it. Some girl ended up getting hurt, and he ended up dying. The best Dobermann I had seen in a long, long time, and everyone failed him.

I guess when they told me he snapped and got you, they missed something. However, I was not about to do a BH, or any other Sch nonsense.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> I hope you aren't saying that the e-collar would be enough to stop the dog if he seriously goes for the owner? Because I have had a moment, butting heads with my normally nice respectful good-boy mal, when it became perfectly clear that he could ignore the stim from a Dogtra on the highest level and didn't bite only because he liked me.
> 
> And yes, it was a moment when I was very sick and he decided for himself OB was optional...
> 
> The e-collar is more impersonal than laying hands on the dog or leash correction, and less likely to provoke a fight for that reason.


Anna,

I don't want to answer for Jack, but an e-collar (at LOW levels) in Lee's case would be an effective means of communication and control without the need for a physical confrontation. I would NOT try to use an e-collar to stop an attack. It would be more likely to increase the attack then prevent it


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Anna,
> 
> I don't want to answer for Jack, but an e-collar (at LOW levels) in Lee's case would be an effective means of communication and control without the need for a physical confrontation. I would NOT try to use an e-collar to stop an attack. It would be more likely to increase the attack then prevent it


Yes, of course, that's what I was trying to say, it's impersonal. Effective at low levels, unless the dog decided to force the issue...


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Lee,
I would not want to pick a fight with the dog as long as i could avoid it,but i would be ready for him if he would try to take over.Imo the dog is doing his own thing more or less when you are not around and he is letting you know he likes it that way.
Instead of making him feel secure in his life try to make him look to you for guidance instead. You have to use your imagination,make him ask you what you want him to do.Dont try to frustrate him but be suttle about it.
Maybe the answer is in what you said about the female,she looks totally at ease with the situation?
Could she just be waiting who will win this thing?Maybe you should be giving more attention to her to show him you are also her leader?
I think the kind of dog you have is the kind who will win or loose a fight but will not give in easely.
If your health is still getting worse i would try to avoid the fight and just keep the ecollar on him at all times even if this means to buy a second one.
Imo it would be easier and more beneficial to both of you if you can beat him at the mental level.
you know your own dog best and i wish you well.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Anna,

No I am not suggesting stopping dog attack with an e-collar. I do think that it is a great tool in Lee's case for getting OB with the dog. I am not suggesting full shock but making the dog wear the collar everyday and mind. I do not think you need full shock and prefer lower power as a means of communication with the dog.

I think with some dogs the e-collar is impersonal as you say. I have had one dog that would take leash corrections personal but was fine with e-collar corrections. 

If the dog is collarwise then start taking and removing the collar at various times. Put the collar on the dog before going in a ride in your car. Do positive things with the collar after putting it on. You can just take the collar off randomly throughout the day.

Personally, I do not think most dogs set out to over run a house but it does seem that there are some who are opportunistic in their behaviors. 

I think Lee's dog will respond well to firm structure and boundaries set by making the dog mind and controlling the dog's environment. The problem seems to be with the dog not having clear boundaries while Lee is gone. I have faced the same problem with my dogs when I have left for some extended times. You come back and the dog is used to living a different way. You just have to remind the dog what you require of them.

I doubt the dog will attack Lee, especially since he has had him from a puppy. I am not saying that the dog will definitely not attack him but the probability is low and more than likely it would be more of a show of aggression than a full out attack. I am not stating a fact but just making a probable guess, even in the worse situation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

And how many of you actually have any experience with this ? LOL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lee,

I honestly think it would be dangerous to keep on wondering why the dog is reacting like it is. I know it's very difficult for you in your present situation but there are ways and means to guard yourself and I would use them as best you can. I'm sure those that have realised that the situation can escalate will give you more detailed advice.

A girl at our club had a dog that growled all the time she did control work in Schutzdienst. One of the men warned her about it and said she should think about how she would react if he came for her, which he was sure he would. The dog was quite happy under her ownership but when she came to want something from hîm and he was unwilling, she let it slide. Our helper took over his training for a while and even went to BSP with him and the dog was like a lamb with him!!

Ideally, it would be best if the dog could be controlled mentally and vocally, but if not, you will have to find a way to let the dog know you are above him in rank.

All the very best, Lee.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

This is just a quote from David Mech, the man that made "Dominance" a common theme in domestic dog training. This is from his article recanting the term _Alpha_ and the theory of wolves trying to gain _Dominance _ in their own packs. thought it might be relevant.

"The parents then automatically fall into the leadership role in the pack as they guide the pups throughout their territory. This leadership role, however, does not involve anyone fighting to the top of the group, because just like in a human family, the youngsters naturally follow their parents’ *lead.*"

As my good friend and MWD trainer Thomas Ravn says "There is a difference in being a Pack Leader and a Pack Commander" Commanders often face mutinies!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I thought about something this morning that I should add to this discussion. The dog neber once makes any type eye contact with me when he does his low growl before complying with the command.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Are you so ugly???


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Are you so ugly???


Maybe that why he's growling. He can't stand the sight of me!!:smile:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Seriously!

I always learned to avoid eye contact when out in the forest and confronted by a not so friendly looking dog - always served me in good stead. The dog feels challenged by this. I went jogging sometimes with a female group and they alway sent me in front (I was the tiniest of the group).

When you say "eye contact", are you talking about focus training?? And why are you commanding him to look at you? This of course wouldn't be focus training. Can you explain what you are doing.

On the other hand, the above may be relevant, that the dog feels challenged and is responding.

Just PM Jeff O, Joby or Howard Knauf, etc. - I'd feel happier if you did. Sort of man to man, no clickers, no therapy, just "plain talking"! I've seen a number of situations where the dog went for the handler - just haven't experienced it myself but would not try to reason with the dog - this places you in an even lower position in my mind.

As ever, good luck!

Gill


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Don't give him any food for a while. He'll figure out who has the power. Put him in lock down while you are holding the food back. Or, since you can't yell at him, pick up a $50 hot shot and an air horn.....but take video.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dog might just be a little *** like jeff says..

If he is looking away when he is growling , that is much better than him staring at you or getting in your face, and the fact that he is growling is a good sign, better than biting...not great but better than I was picturing in my mind....you know your dog, and yourself...you got 2 choices, push it..see what happens, or work more at figuring it out.

Keep us posted....I am a little less worried for you now....Now I can go back to wondering if the DS puppy that is humping it's owner is going to man up soon....


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I am starting to lean on him now! I whack him with my cane when he tries to get stupid. Then I stare him down. So far he looks away when I pull the stare down.

Kind of strange, when I whack him, he then starts barking and growling at the female.

I will something stronger than a aluminum cane in case the shit hits the fan and he turns on me.

I think I will just take care of this situation for good when I arm myself with something more than a aluminum cane and nail him more than a couple of whacks with a cane. I wanted to check on his reaction to that first.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I am starting to lean on him now! I whack him with my cane when he tries to get stupid. Then I stare him down. So far he looks away when I pull the stare down.
> 
> Kind of strange, when I whack him, he then starts barking and growling at the female.
> 
> I will something stronger than a aluminum cane in case the shit hits the fan and he turns on me.


Lee...Lee...Lee...8-[8-[ PM you tonight...


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Lee--if he was unhinged, he would bite without giving a warning growl. Look at it from his perspective-all of a sudden his life has changed dramatically. He's not happy about it...

A DS isn't a lab--most are high drive dogs & need exercise & attention. You perceive his behavior as him wanting to dominate because of your weakened state--did you ever think the growling is a symptom of frustration that he can't do anything to improve his situation?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Just the way I do things having dealt with alot of these types of dogs . I don't correct for the growling , because the growling is just a sign and sometimes we don't know what the growling really is telling us . Disobediance or confusion ? 

Because in your case many things have changed . There could be other reasons for the growling . Mainly confusion . Your voice has changed . Is it possible you're in pain when you give him commands , frustrated our pissed off at the situation because your voice isn't as effective ? Does your body language change maybe because you have to strain or are in pain trying to talk ? This dog maybe be hearing and seeing you and thinking WTF ? and that may account for his slow reaction to listening to you .

I correct for the disobediance or the dog turning if that happens . The dog must learn he has to listen to me and definately shouldn't turn on me if he wants to live . I basically just do what I have to do regardless of the growling and as long as the dog listens we don't have a problem . 

I've seen too many dogs corrected for just the growling that were actually confused but had been obediant . The dogs listens but growls , the handler corrects for the growling and it growls more , the handler corrects harder , dog growls more , with a strong dog it just escalates to the dog protecting itself and forcing a fight . 

If the dog is growling out of disobediance or wanting to take over you will find out when you start enforcing the rules , your goal is you being the boss and the dog listening , so correcting for that is the best route IMO . If he growls and listens it's more then likely confusion . 

I don't back off because of the growling just do what I always do with a disobediant dog(regardless of the growling) and if he wants to make the mistake and fight if I try to correct or enforce a command then I do what I have to do and the dog isn't going to like it . I correct for disobediance , biting or turning on me but not just for growling .


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In my personal experience, there are some dogs that growl and act in a certain way, and you know you can tell them to knock it off, or perhaps use less than strong physical domination to get the message across. I don't know how to describe when it's a more serious situation other than you just know, the feeling of the hair raising on the back of your neck, that sort of thing. When your dog gives you this feeling then you know it's serious and I am in 100% agreement with those who say it must be dealt with physically, harshly, quickly, in such a manner it leaves no doubt in the dogs mind who is in charge. Dogs understand things that are very clear, this type of situation is one that should be exceedingly clear.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

My old boy that is now ten or so pulled some shit on me about 6 years or so ago. I was gone for a couple of months and he had got use to sleeping in the bed with my wife for as she put it her protection. Well here I am the poor smuck thats been away and walk in the front door after not being home for awhile. Next thing I knoe the ****er launches from about 2/3 's down from the bottom at the staircase at me teeth and all showing. 

I was lucky enough to move out of the way as he lost his footing on the tile floor when he hit the ground and strung him up and twisted his flat collar with my elbow in his throat until the stupid bastard almost dam passed out. Boy was I fringing pissed off , barely got two feet in the door from a long trip and had to deal with that shit. Although after that incident there has been no more accurances in the last 6 years.

Unfortunately Lee he might just need a good ass kicking as mean as it sounds and as bad as you might not want to do it, but u gotta lay the law down with these dam mali and DS, otherwise you could be toast fella. Good luck to ya and get to feeling better.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Lee, maybe your perception of his behavior has changed also. "Tend & Befriend"(Steven Lindsay) is the best way to live with a dog-any dog.

I'm not saying this is the case, but has your attitude changed towards him? Dogs can tell when you don't like them-perhaps your perception that he is trying to take over has changed your attitude towards him & he knows it. Just one of the possibilities. Feel more confident & friendly towards him & maybe he'll respond to you as he used to. If I remember correctly, you used to take him everywhere with you & he had a lot of freedom. That's changed now & he'll deal with it if you give him a chance.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Lee, maybe your perception of his behavior has changed also. "Tend & Befriend"(Steven Lindsay) is the best way to live with a dog-any dog.
> 
> I'm not saying this is the case, but has your attitude changed towards him? Dogs can tell when you don't like them-perhaps your perception that he is trying to take over has changed your attitude towards him & he knows it. Just one of the possibilities. Feel more confident & friendly towards him & maybe he'll respond to you as he used to. If I remember correctly, you used to take him everywhere with you & he had a lot of freedom. That's changed now & he'll deal with it if you give him a chance.


No change in my attitude other than I'm frustrated I can't do the things I always used to do with him.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Just the way I do things having dealt with alot of these types of dogs . I don't correct for the growling , because the growling is just a sign and sometimes we don't know what the growling really is telling us . Disobediance or confusion ?
> 
> Because in your case many things have changed . There could be other reasons for the growling . Mainly confusion . Your voice has changed . Is it possible you're in pain when you give him commands , frustrated our pissed off at the situation because your voice isn't as effective ? Does your body language change maybe because you have to strain or are in pain trying to talk ? This dog maybe be hearing and seeing you and thinking WTF ? and that may account for his slow reaction to listening to you .
> 
> ...


That is the way I always handled growling, Jim. He has always growled. He is a vocal but obedient dog. Lately I started seeing the obedience slipping and the growling accelerating. That is why I think it might be time to get tougher on enforcement.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Lee, maybe your perception of his behavior has changed also. "Tend & Befriend"(Steven Lindsay) is the best way to live with a dog-any dog.
> 
> I'm not saying this is the case, but has your attitude changed towards him? Dogs can tell when you don't like them-perhaps your perception that he is trying to take over has changed your attitude towards him & he knows it. Just one of the possibilities. Feel more confident & friendly towards him & maybe he'll respond to you as he used to. If I remember correctly, you used to take him everywhere with you & he had a lot of freedom. That's changed now & he'll deal with it if you give him a chance.


Personally I don't really care if my dog thinks my attitude has changed, that's kind of my perogative, and my dog has to deal with it regardless because he's my dog and I'm the human. That's the deal, he gets free room and board and gets to do lots of fun schutzhund crap, and in exchange he doesn't get a say in how I act, whether he likes it or not, he knows he will get the shit beat out of him should he come up the leash at me. He understands this perfectly, we've had that talk, and he will never forget, it is crystal clear to him, which is what I think is fair.


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## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

Sue Miller said:


> Lee, maybe your perception of his behavior has changed also. "Tend & Befriend"(Steven Lindsay) is the best way to live with a dog-any dog.
> 
> I'm not saying this is the case, but has your attitude changed towards him? Dogs can tell when you don't like them-perhaps your perception that he is trying to take over has changed your attitude towards him & he knows it. Just one of the possibilities. Feel more confident & friendly towards him & maybe he'll respond to you as he used to. If I remember correctly, you used to take him everywhere with you & he had a lot of freedom. That's changed now & he'll deal with it if you give him a chance.


 
So are you saying the Lee should give his dog, who is challenging him, and in your opinion "is confused", more freedom and a couple extra pats on the head and that will make him better?

I am definitely not experienced in this case, so please humour me a little. How do you jump from "marker train him more, to "he's confused", to "he needs you to make his life like it was before and be his friend more"?

This is actually a question, like I said, I am still what I consider a new to training, so I would like to see the connection.


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## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> No change in my attitude other than I'm frustrated I can't do the things I always used to do with him.


It sounds like you really love your dog and want what is best for both of you but honestly it sounds like the dog needs to be mentally and physically challanged, he is bored and looking for way to get your attention. You are in no shape to be working with this dog and he could seriously hurt you. Have you though about placing him with someone that can handle him and give him what he needs. We all want what we want but we always forget what is best for the dog. 

Your health is your priority and that should always be the case. Good luck with everything.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Niomi Smith said:


> So are you saying the Lee should give his dog, who is challenging him, and in your opinion "is confused", more freedom and a couple extra pats on the head and that will make him better?
> 
> I am definitely not experienced in this case, so please humour me a little. How do you jump from "marker train him more, to "he's confused", to "he needs you to make his life like it was before and be his friend more"?
> 
> This is actually a question, like I said, I am still what I consider a new to training, so I would like to see the connection.


Dogs need a certain amount of stimulation (I would say sensory stimulation, but Jeff would blow his top). Since Lee is still convalescing, I don't think his boy is getting enough exercise & "Lee" time & he's just a young dog that needs to learn to control himself. I think before Lee became ill the dog had plenty of free time in Costa Rica going into town (I'm pretty sure I've read about that in posts) & having a great free life. Now, he needs to learn that things have changed a bit & he needs to cooperate. He doesn't like having less & he needs to learn to accept this. That isn't physically, personally fighting him-you are asking for trouble. He lived in the country before with plenty of exercise & plenty to do-that's why he didn't really act up. He needs to be taught that there's a new "normal" now & he has to accept that. Beating him isn't the way.
Marker training eliminates confusion & eases stress. The dog isn't attacking Lee, he's only growling for Pete's sake.

For people like you, Niomi, that's why I'm posting--you're new to training--I'm not. You have a long way to go...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Denise Picicci said:


> It sounds like you really love your dog and want what is best for both of you but honestly it sounds like the dog needs to be mentally and physically challanged, he is bored and looking for way to get your attention. You are in no shape to be working with this dog and he could seriously hurt you. Have you though about placing him with someone that can handle him and give him what he needs. We all want what we want but we always forget what is best for the dog.
> 
> Your health is your priority and that should always be the case. Good luck with everything.


I considered all those things. That may end up being necessary. In mid January I am scheduled to have my voice box removed, if I let them.. After that I get one of those horrible Donald Duck sounding voice machines so I will at least be able to communicate. 

The doctors tell me eventually IF all goes well I should gradually return to my normal strength and be able to do most things like before except swim.

So I am trying to buy time while I am in this current condition. 

You are exactly right. The dog is currently not getting any mental or physical activity. I'm not capable at the moment. Hopefully that will change soon. I know that is all that he's missing and I don't have anyone here that can take over that responsibility.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Dogs need a certain amount of stimulation (I would say sensory stimulation, but Jeff would blow his top). Since Lee is still convalescing, I don't think his boy is getting enough exercise & "Lee" time & he's just a young dog that needs to learn to control himself. I think before Lee became ill the dog had plenty of free time in Costa Rica going into town (I'm pretty sure I've read about that in posts) & having a great free life. Now, he needs to learn that things have changed a bit & he needs to cooperate. He doesn't like having less & he needs to learn to accept this. That isn't physically, personally fighting him-you are asking for trouble. He lived in the country before with plenty of exercise & plenty to do-that's why he didn't really act up. He needs to be taught that there's a new "normal" now & he has to accept that. Beating him isn't the way.
> Marker training eliminates confusion & eases stress. The dog isn't attacking Lee, he's only growling for Pete's sake.
> 
> For people like you, Niomi, that's why I'm posting--you're new to training--I'm not. You have a long way to go...


 
Some of this may work with some dogs, but not with all. Lee is the only one who knows his dogs normal behavior and can access/understand the type of the growling, but if not fixed/corrected, if it is the growling that I am thinking of based of the dog he has described before.....there is a coming to jesus very soon, who will come out ahead..


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Dogs need a certain amount of stimulation (I would say sensory stimulation, but Jeff would blow his top). Since Lee is still convalescing, I don't think his boy is getting enough exercise & "Lee" time & he's just a young dog that needs to learn to control himself. I think before Lee became ill the dog had plenty of free time in Costa Rica going into town (I'm pretty sure I've read about that in posts) & having a great free life. Now, he needs to learn that things have changed a bit & he needs to cooperate. He doesn't like having less & he needs to learn to accept this. That isn't physically, personally fighting him-you are asking for trouble. He lived in the country before with plenty of exercise & plenty to do-that's why he didn't really act up. He needs to be taught that there's a new "normal" now & he has to accept that. Beating him isn't the way.
> Marker training eliminates confusion & eases stress. The dog isn't attacking Lee, he's only growling for Pete's sake.
> 
> For people like you, Niomi, that's why I'm posting--you're new to training--I'm not. You have a long way to go...


That is a good point which I tried to emphasize. The dog has ALWAYS been vocal. Now he is more vocal and sliding with OB and discipline.

I decided to do something about it BEFORE it became a serious problem.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: After that I get one of those horrible Donald Duck sounding voice machines so I will at least be able to communicate. 

Do NOT get the Donald Duck model. I never understood shit he said.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Some of this may work with some dogs, but not with all. Lee is the only one who knows his dogs normal behavior and can access/understand the type of the growling, but if not fixed/corrected, if it is the growling that I am thinking of based of the dog he has described before.....there is a coming to jesus very soon, who will come out ahead..


This is potentially accurate as well. I'm trying to get after the problem before there is a coming to Jesus situation.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: After that I get one of those horrible Donald Duck sounding voice machines so I will at least be able to communicate.
> 
> Do NOT get the Donald Duck model. I never understood shit he said.



What model would you suggest?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Dogs need a certain amount of stimulation (I would say sensory stimulation, but Jeff would blow his top). Since Lee is still convalescing, I don't think his boy is getting enough exercise & "Lee" time & he's just a young dog that needs to learn to control himself. I think before Lee became ill the dog had plenty of free time in Costa Rica going into town (I'm pretty sure I've read about that in posts) & having a great free life. Now, he needs to learn that things have changed a bit & he needs to cooperate. He doesn't like having less & he needs to learn to accept this. That isn't physically, personally fighting him-you are asking for trouble. He lived in the country before with plenty of exercise & plenty to do-that's why he didn't really act up. He needs to be taught that there's a new "normal" now & he has to accept that. Beating him isn't the way.
> Marker training eliminates confusion & eases stress. The dog isn't attacking Lee, he's only growling for Pete's sake.
> 
> For people like you, Niomi, that's why I'm posting--you're new to training--I'm not. You have a long way to go...



It's advice like this where I think clicker training goes way too far and makes it hard for others to except it as a viable way to train some dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Get the Barry White model. How cool would that be ? That guy could sell dog shit to a clean freak with that voice !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0I6mhZ5wMw


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## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

Sue Miller said:


> Dogs need a certain amount of stimulation (I would say sensory stimulation, but Jeff would blow his top). Since Lee is still convalescing, I don't think his boy is getting enough exercise & "Lee" time & he's just a young dog that needs to learn to control himself. I think before Lee became ill the dog had plenty of free time in Costa Rica going into town (I'm pretty sure I've read about that in posts) & having a great free life. Now, he needs to learn that things have changed a bit & he needs to cooperate. He doesn't like having less & he needs to learn to accept this. That isn't physically, personally fighting him-you are asking for trouble. He lived in the country before with plenty of exercise & plenty to do-that's why he didn't really act up. He needs to be taught that there's a new "normal" now & he has to accept that. Beating him isn't the way.
> Marker training eliminates confusion & eases stress. The dog isn't attacking Lee, he's only growling for Pete's sake.
> 
> For people like you, Niomi, that's why I'm posting--you're new to training--I'm not. You have a long way to go...


 
So are you saying to use the marker training as mental stimulation or to train the aggression/challenging that Lee is experiencing, out of the dog?

I don't think that dogs see things as "he used to take me to town and now he doesn't, I am going to challenge". Can you clarify why you would see the dog as being vindictive?

I do see that the dog could need mental stimlution, but I don't see how that would translate to marker training "it out of him". 

I see marker training (sorry I don't use a clicker) as the first step in training OB. You can have fun games that you do, but in the end, it is for the OB part of things. I would not take a dog that was challenging my position and take him out and do sits and downs. 

I would take away anything he ever knew as a life and make him earn it back. So take away his food, his space, his decision making power, and make him earn it back through good behavior.

I will help him along, but this dog knows what is expected - he was completely trained before - now he is pushing the envelope in hopes of gaining ground. What happens when the ground is pulled out from underneath him?

So do you mean you would take the marker training and use it to drain some mental energy, so that you can go about heading his social climbing off in another fashion? (other than physical force)


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

I don't have a ton of experience with full blown attacks, but DO NOT think clicker training is a good idea here. This isn't about making things fun and positive. This is a working dog that needs to be put back in its place. About a week ago I had an asshole Mali that bit me- my boyfriend and I were trying to brush out his coat- I had the joy of his doing his back end, when he whipped around and bit my hand (luckily I had on some thick mittens so it wasn't as bad as it couldve been), I immediately grabbed the leash and hung him up- didn't do it again. He was actually quite the lover after that, I was sad to see him go. 

If you do physically confront the dog, do it when someone is home please- to make us feel better!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well Lee, it sounds like he has growled a time it two already while you been thinking about it. Lost the edge there buddy. Should have waylayed him halfway throught the first growl. Now it is going to be tougher to convince him.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Sue, 
I understand where you are coming from, I GET that with some dogs it is better to work on the relationship and obedience than TEACH them to fight you....I also GET that alot of dog issues are handler issues, with that said, just in the few comments, I really dont think this dog is THAT kind of dog. Take the growling, the challenge to the weakened, the eye contact avoidance.... probably just easier to deal with it head on... with THAT said, if you dont KNOW you are going to win... ya may want to rethink that strategy as you can potentially just make it worse. Only you have the answer to that... and I hope your getting better.

t


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

For goodness sake! Do you think I'm chasing an aggressive dog around clicking?



One more time--Whiskey is behaving differently than he had been.
There is something going on.
His life has changed drastically.
He is a dog & he doesn't understand that Lee is convalescing & his life has changed.
He doesn't like it & he doesn't know how to deal with it.
He had a care-free life before with much freedom (from what I read) & now it's different & he doesn't know how to deal with it.
Since Whiskey had a life which fulfilled his needs before the illness, I think there wasn't much "training" going on. I think from what I read that Lee had a dog that fit the life-style he led.
Now that his life-style has changed, Whiskey deals with it like a high-drive dog who hasn't had many restrictions or rules to follow.
He needs to *LEARN* there are restrictions--the best way to communicate without stress, which can lead to aggression, is with markers.
Has anyone even asked what triggers the growling?
I really don't see where anyone gets the idea I chase a dog around with a clicker, clicking trying to stop him from attacking me.


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## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

But what exactly are you marking?

Are you starting his OB all over again with the clciker training and teaching him to...what?

What do you mean by "teach him the boundaries with clicker training?"


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I don't think the dog's gonna bite you Lee, but who knows.

If the growling stops and the dog stiffens up and looks kinda sideways at you I'd start to be concerned.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> For goodness sake! Do you think I'm chasing an aggressive dog around clicking?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Number 6 and 7 is not correct. The opposite is true. I mentioned I was retired. Both my dogs got worked almost daily both on premises and off. I had nothing but time on my hands. He had a lot of freedom because he does have discipline and manners. The female is different because she hates everyone outside the pack.

I've owned dogs my whole life. Since my early 20's all have been 2 working dogs at a time. I am 64 now. I have had aggressive dogs and dogs that came up the leash at me.

But this is the first time I so radically changed a dog's whole existence and then watch him start acting out.

The growls take place when a specific command annoys him. For instance if he is running around the living room chasing my kid and I down him. As he downs there is a growl with no eye contact. It never meant anything to me before but now he reacts slower to commands and the growls are much more frequent.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I don't think the dog's gonna bite you Lee, but who knows.
> 
> If the growling stops and the dog stiffens up and looks kinda sideways at you I'd start to be concerned.


That is my guess too. I think I will back him right down. But like you say who knows?

I aim to find out soon!


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Number 6 and 7 is not correct. The opposite is true. I mentioned I was retired. Both my dogs got worked almost daily both on premises and off. I had nothing but time on my hands. He had a lot of freedom because he does have discipline and manners. The female is different because she hates everyone outside the pack.
> 
> I've owned dogs my whole life. Since my early 20's all have been 2 working dogs at a time. I am 64 now. I have had aggressive dogs and dogs that came up the leash at me.
> 
> ...


That IS what I'm talking about--you had time on your hands & you spent it with your dogs. Your dogs fit your lifestyle.

I would give you the advice not to let your dog run around the living room chasing your kid until you get control of him.

Get him outside, put a leash on him.
Tell him to sit.
As soon as he does, say good boy.
Then release him with a word (OK)
Then throw a ball for him or give him some food.

Do the exact same thing except increase the time he's expected to sit.
If he gets up, tell him "NO" & use the e-collar
Immediately when he sits back down tell him "good boy"-this relieves stress.
Then release him with OK
Then reward him.

You don't need the food or ball to bribe him-keep the ball out of sight or the food somewhere he can't reach it-eventually the release itself becomes a reward.

It's a hard time for everyone Lee. I offered to help your wife when you were away & the same goes for you (I know you're laughing right now). I've trained aggressive dogs & know how to handle them. I'm not going to bother you anymore in this thread but please don't make the mistake of physical combat with your dog.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Sue Miller said:


> That IS what I'm talking about--you had time on your hands & you spent it with your dogs. Your dogs fit your lifestyle.
> 
> I would give you the advice not to let your dog run around the living room chasing your kid until you get control of him.
> 
> ...



youre forgetting one this here sue...something you seem to forget throughout the whole topic....

ever considered that your abovementioned regiment might and most probably irritate the everloving shit out of the dog and lead him to enforce his growl with a bit of teeth ? the dog is used to a certain way of being treated and lately he hasnt been treated that way...smart move to then go to clickertraining...NOT....you stay in the exact same trainingroutine you have always been and reinforce what has been slipping over time...stepping over to something totaly different is not going to help the dog but confuse it since its used to a fixed way of being dealt with...its just that the rains have slipped a bit and need retightning.....

its not like this is an idiot dog that has no training at all....what i see/read is that hes slowly building steam...hes always been vocal but simply doesnt have the balls yet to follow through hence the no eye contact... YET...hes testing the waters...hmmm lets not respond so quick to a command or a NO....nothing happens! ok lets growl a little more....nothing happens ! brilliant...now lets try facing of with my owner ! its a work in process for the dog....action reaction and hes not getting the reaction hes used to so heyyyyy its time to see how far i can get away with shit before i get a come to jezus talk with my owner....


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> That is my guess too. I think I will back him right down. But like you say who knows?
> 
> I aim to find out soon!


Lee, I believe we are from similar vintage and we both have the same breed of dogs. I would even go out on a limb guessing we may enjoy similar traits.

My dog and myself are buds, just a couple of stupid males stumbling through life together :lol: God, I sound like Opra.

I made this growling vid just for fun and I know it doesn't apply to you and your situation..but maybe you'll get a laugh out of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x8y0PD2svA


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## Chris Cromwell (Jun 7, 2010)

This sounds just like what happens in the wild when the 2nd in line dog senses the pack leader is in a weakened state. They see it as an opportunity to challenge the pack leader for their position. It is the very reason wild animals hide pain as it can mean they get killed or at least hurt very badly. It sounds like Lee's dog has picked up on this and is getting ready to have a run at him. (after all they are very good at sensing weakness) If this is indeed the case, the only way to stop it is to make sure that his dog has a complete understanding that Lee is still the pack leader. Hanging him up or beating his ass should do it but it needs to be at the right level he doesn't challenge him again. I suspect that once that happens, life will go back to normal. 

My Dutchie is a little beast :twisted: that felt he could challenge me when I first started training him. Once he was old enough I had to hang him up on multiple occasions. This was due to the fact that I wasn't firm enough the first few times. Our trainer warned me that I wasn't being firm enough so I stepped it up. He now knows his place and doesn't think about having a go at me. All the while there is no love lost between us. 

-C


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

What about using a treadmill to wear out the dogs physically?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Melissa Blazak said:


> What about using a treadmill to wear out the dogs physically?


There you go! Great Idea!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

What about hot yoga ??


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

I think some of the yoga outfits would clash with his stripes. You have to find the right colour for him ya know.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Originally Posted by Melissa Blazak 
What about using a treadmill to wear out the dogs physically?

There you go! Great Idea!


So in a few weeks he can be way stronger than Lee ? Brilliant. You are showing your lack of experience more and more. Nice job, get the guy killed why don't you ? HA HA


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

I don't make a claim to know anything. You're totally right there! Was merely suggesting that if the dog needed a bit more exercise and he couldn't do it then maybe a 1/2 hour a day on the treadmill could at least burn off some of the excess energy.

And yes, putting a dog on a treadmill is a double edged sword. You do get a tired dog, but also a fitter dog.

I am just sorry at what Lee has to go through. Both of my parents had cancer.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> That IS what I'm talking about--you had time on your hands & you spent it with your dogs. Your dogs fit your lifestyle.
> 
> I would give you the advice not to let your dog run around the living room chasing your kid until you get control of him.
> 
> ...


Sue I never laugh at someone offering to help. I respect you for offering.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I've trained aggressive dogs & know how to handle them. 

There you go Lee, just drop the dog off at her house and pick the dog up fully fixed in just 4 short years. Solves your problem.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I've trained aggressive dogs & know how to handle them.
> 
> There you go Lee, just drop the dog off at her house and pick the dog up fully fixed in just 4 short years. Solves your problem.


That's not fair Jeff. You know that kind of training is the fastest kind.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Sue I never laugh at someone offering to help. I respect you for offering.


Lee, there is not one single person in the world as we know it that can help you with your problem that either is actively involved in Sch or is a Female.

Sorry ladies but you aren't physically endowed to handle this..if the dog is as stated..even Alice B states she has had like 1400 surguries, and she's dealing with man dogs


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

order a dominant dog collar from leerburg, dog won't even realize he is wearing it but you can string him up quick with it, it's hard to fight when ur passed out...these collars are just thin nylon with a loose ring that fits snug, just make sure you get one that fits correctly, order smaller rather then large


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I considered all those things. That may end up being necessary. In mid January I am scheduled to have my voice box removed, if I let them.. After that I get one of those horrible Donald Duck sounding voice machines so I will at least be able to communicate.
> 
> The doctors tell me eventually IF all goes well I should gradually return to my normal strength and be able to do most things like before except swim.
> 
> ...


Lee, I honestly would just feel sick if we heard you got yourself or one of your family members badly hurt or worse during a confrontation. It's just not worth it. Nothing about the situation is fair, either to you or your dog. You have many more important things to worry about. I think sending him to a working dog savvy friend (I'm sure if you asked around on here, someone could help you out) to be worked in a longer term situation and getting him back when you feel better should be fine. You could try switching to whistles or hand signals for your new voice.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

eric squires said:


> order a dominant dog collar from leerburg, dog won't even realize he is wearing it but you can string him up quick with it, it's hard to fight when ur passed out...these collars are just thin nylon with a loose ring that fits snug, just make sure you get one that fits correctly, order smaller rather then large


Hi Eric - I have a couple.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Lee, I honestly would just feel sick if we heard you got yourself or one of your family members badly hurt or worse during a confrontation. It's just not worth it. Nothing about the situation is fair, either to you or your dog. You have many more important things to worry about. I think sending him to a working dog savvy friend (I'm sure if you asked around on here, someone could help you out) to be worked in a longer term situation and getting him back when you feel better should be fine. You could try switching to whistles or hand signals for your new voice.


Ok Maren, He's on his way to you! Kidding. Thanks for your concern. I will be careful and no family members present when I confront him.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ha, I love them Dutchies, but I barely have time to work my own dogs, let alone spares! :wink:

I would ask though, if you're planning some sort of confrontation...what are you going to do if he "wins" or otherwise catches you off guard? I just can't see this ending well for either you or the dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Ha, I love them Dutchies, but I barely have time to work my own dogs, let alone spares! :wink:
> 
> I would ask though, if you're planning some sort of confrontation...what are you going to do if he "wins" or otherwise catches you off guard? I just can't see this ending well for either you or the dog.


I'm weakened from this medical ordeal I've been trying to deal with but not dead. This won't be a fight to death. I am smarter than him and it will be well planned. I know this dog. He just needs a mental readjustment. That is why I am catching it early in the game, before it gets more serious.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Indeed, which is why I was thinking it may be better to find a temporary home for him before you have some kind of confrontation with him which could permanently alter your relationship with him, perhaps not for the better...just seems less stressful and dangerous for all parties.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

ok i am gonna add 2 cents in , 
to me this dog does not sound like it needs a beat down, 
so its slower to listen ? and growls when it is complying , so complaining, 

there is no need to beat the crap out of the dog for that, ( to me ) 
I would just keep your e collar on him , you said he is collar wise, this way you have a way of reiforcing that he does,, do your command, 
thats all that matters in the end, if he is growling but not looking at you , that does not sound dangerous to me , just complaining, 
as long as he eventually complies, then you win, everytime, 
i dont care if a dog wants to growl at me when i am telling it to do stuff if it is complying. I havent encountered that behaviour many times but yes a few, i just ignore it , growl if you want but do what i ask , they have to do what you ask , ,, no doubt on that
do you ever work at your job or at something and bitch the whole time, ? everyone does at some point, do you need to get the shit beat out of you for complaining about it , i dont think so 

i would also be a tad stricter with his food , feed, less, make him do commands before eating and such so he understand s you control his life rewards, 

it doesnt sound like a extreme case to me and i am not against taking a dog out if you have to , this just doesnt seem like a HAVE TO situation, 
also try to get this dog some exercise, some how, pent up energy , is never good for this situation, he needs a release of energy , to just chill out ..


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Oh one more thing Lee if you are going to have a coming to jesus or maybe to god meeting, do it on your time, on your ground and your terms raises the chances of a win win for you. Doing it when they want to really sucks 10 times worse if you are the one to stage it. JMO, Like I said earlier good luck and hope yaa get to feeling better.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ya, one more thing.

The coming to jesus meeting works best if the dog actually gets to meet jesus O.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

This is a manners issue....I say put your foot so far in the dog ass his head fall off! How's that for soft and easy! then click and reward for good behavior.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think most here know that I'm a huge fan of marker training.
What some may not know is Lee's dog goes back to Dick and Selena's dogs. 
I've always believed that 99% of handler aggression is created by the handler, for many different reasons.
Dick and Selena's dogs are that 1% that would have no problems at all with eating the face off of anyone they didn't respect and it wouldn't be from fear or stress. 
I also believe that Lee WILL get a handle on this because he understands the dog.

Lee said;
:Kind of strange, when I whack him, he then starts barking and growling at the female."

Redirected aggression because he DOES still look at you as a leader. He's releasing frustration and knows better to direct it at you. That doesn't mean he isn't going to try you but, as said before, I think you know this dog well enough to get a handle on it.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

It sounds to me as though the OP's dog has started the process of taking control.
I have owned,bred& trained dogs(specifically Rottweilers) for a real long time and have been through this EXACT same crap.
Usually a beat down,particularly on a dog with a dominant personality, wont do squat other than motivate him to fight harder.
This dog needs the OP & other household members to remind him of what he is & more importantly WHERE he is in the pecking order. 

OP needs to do a few things, starting with showing him that unless he accepts his place as a dog, his life is gonna be significantly unpleasant. Meaning at first sign of insubordination the dog is corrected for the behavior by the collar then crated and not fed for the day.
Release the next day @ feeding time & try again, if he acts up he is crated again and food is denied again. 
He'll soon realise that the only way he can be able to have a good time (be fed, have contact with humans, play outside, have toys), is by submitting to his master.
Your two greatest tools are his appetite, and basic need for interaction. 
Why not use them. As I said these methods have worked for me for a long time now. Good luck Lee. Keep us posted.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I will either straight out kick a dog’s butt or if I feel the dog can hurt me badly I will backtie him and hang him on a cable collar until he submits. Prong collar corrections can build drive and e collars at very high levels can just cause more aggression from the pain.

Hanging can be done easily, quietly and it takes the dog’s drive down completely. You can always have a cable or choke type collar left on the dog. Works well on all sorts of dogs. I am short, 5 feet so the biggest issue I have is hanging the dog up brings them up to eye level, and with the large dogs it is hard for me to keep them up long enough sometimes.
So the backtie(or second handler) works well in the beginning until the dog realizes I will always win..


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

mr. sternberg,
i hope you feel better. i would get a darth vader model voicebox if i had the choice. the barry white might be smooth as hell, but the darth vader voice might help with your calm assertive marker training. your dog hearing "whiskey i am your pack leader" with that scary ass half robot voice would be more effective than a million clickers.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I appreciate everyone's kind wishes with my medical problem and thoughts regarding this dog issue. I think I have a plan that might work for the dog and I. It understand it is difficult for everyone to comment over the internet because they don't know the dog and have not spent 3 plus years raising and training him.

The dog has always been very obedient and done every task I asked or trained him to do. He has never had any weird or strange issues. He is in the top 2 lifetime dogs I owned and that saying a lot because I owned many. I carefully observed this change in attitude.

Due the unavoidable medical family crisis I'm going through the dog's normal life has changed dramatically. He lost his routine. The whole family lost their routine. That will continue for awhile but I think the end is in sight in late January after a 10 day hospital stay for the operation. He does get as much attention as I can give him when I've been home but it has all been in the confines and restrictions of 4 walls. That is much different than my dogs are accustomed to. 

I'm going to try to get my shit together and work with this boy a bit before I drop the hammer on him. I can't do many OB exercises with him that I once did but there are some I can do. Simply giving him some attention should help. There has been weeks and weeks with me preoccupied with my problems. If I think it becomes necessary to hang him I will but maybe I can resolve this in a more humane manner.

It is at least worth a short try to see if I notice a difference.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Ok Maren, He's on his way to you! Kidding. Thanks for your concern. I will be careful and no family members present when I confront him.


I think you should stand behind your wife and throw the lead over her shoulder to sting him up


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Ha, I love them Dutchies, but I barely have time to work my own dogs, let alone spares! :wink:
> 
> I would ask though, if you're planning some sort of confrontation...what are you going to do if he "wins" or otherwise catches you off guard? I just can't see this ending well for either you or the dog.


 
He is gona get his ass eaten, what there to plain for?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Originally Posted by Melissa Blazak
> What about using a treadmill to wear out the dogs physically?
> 
> There you go! Great Idea!
> ...


 
This whole thing is great!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Lee, there is not one single person in the world as we know it that can help you with your problem that either is actively involved in Sch or is a Female.
> 
> Sorry ladies but you aren't physically endowed to handle this..if the dog is as stated..even Alice B states she has had like 1400 surguries, and she's dealing with man dogs


This shit is great! This is the best reading in a while. Lee always starts good threads. Thanks Lee


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Marker training eliminates confusion & eases stress. The dog isn't attacking Lee, he's only growling for Pete's sake.
> 
> For people like you, Niomi, that's why I'm posting--you're new to training--I'm not. You have a long way to go...


“The dog isn't attacking Lee, he's only growling for Pete's sake.”

WTF? Does anyone else think that this is retarted? ONLY GROWLING at its handler is OK? Does anyone think that if Lee had the strength to give a good correction that first time the thought of growling even entered the dogs mind it might not have elevated to this? 
“The dog isn't attacking Lee, he's only growling for Pete's sake”
What is wrong with you?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Back off on the caffine Chris. LOL


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Lee, there is not one single person in the world as we know it that can help you with your problem that either is actively involved in Sch or is a Female.
> 
> Sorry ladies but you aren't physically endowed to handle this..if the dog is as stated..even Alice B states she has had like 1400 surguries, and she's dealing with man dogs



Just to put the records straight so people here dont think the surgery's are due to the dogs :lol:

The surgery's I had are due to hinge issues for lack of a better word  My hinges just seem to have a will of their own and due to poor bloodcirculation I tend to tear a few muscles and tear of a few tendons, or actualy break something every so often or which then need to be put in place or replaced completly...like my shoulder per example which needs replacing...and training large moody kidkillers aint helping thats for sure but hey ! what the hell lol...gotta keep the surgeons fed now dont I :lol: 

but to give you some credit...we arent physically endowed to handle this...i grant you that...but handle em some of us do  simple fact is that even tho I might not be strong enough at times.....im mean enough to not need the strength hehehe...its called " hurt me and ill share the pain" works perfectly...and lets face it...us wimin is evil and mean and bitchy...wees got the edge and are willin to use it :razz: and we are very inventive when it comes to inducing pain...most husbands will attest to that im sure


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Sue Miller said:


> Dogs need a certain amount of stimulation (I would say sensory stimulation, but Jeff would blow his top). Since Lee is still convalescing, I don't think his boy is getting enough exercise & "Lee" time & he's just a young dog that needs to learn to control himself. I think before Lee became ill the dog had plenty of free time in Costa Rica going into town (I'm pretty sure I've read about that in posts) & having a great free life. Now, he needs to learn that things have changed a bit & he needs to cooperate. He doesn't like having less & he needs to learn to accept this. That isn't physically, personally fighting him-you are asking for trouble. He lived in the country before with plenty of exercise & plenty to do-that's why he didn't really act up. He needs to be taught that there's a new "normal" now & he has to accept that. Beating him isn't the way.
> Marker training eliminates confusion & eases stress. The dog isn't attacking Lee, he's only growling for Pete's sake.
> 
> For people like you, Niomi, that's why I'm posting-_*-you're new to training--I'm not. You have a long way to go...*_



only one thing you can say about this: 

*ar·ro·gant*

*1. * Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
*2. * Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Just to put the records straight so people here dont think the surgery's are due to the dogs :lol:
> 
> The surgery's I had are due to hinge issues for lack of a better word  My hinges just seem to have a will of their own and due to poor bloodcirculation I tend to tear a few muscles and tear of a few tendons, or actualy break something every so often or which then need to be put in place or replaced completly...like my shoulder per example which needs replacing...and training large moody kidkillers aint helping thats for sure but hey ! what the hell lol...gotta keep the surgeons fed now dont I :lol:
> 
> but to give you some credit...we arent physically endowed to handle this...i grant you that...but handle em some of us do  simple fact is that even tho I might not be strong enough at times.....im mean enough to not need the strength hehehe...its called " hurt me and ill share the pain" works perfectly...and lets face it...us wimin is evil and mean and bitchy...wees got the edge and are willin to use it :razz: and we are very inventive when it comes to inducing pain...most husbands will attest to that im sure


Ain't that the truth . 

As it applies to this topic I once saw one of our female handlers(now retired) while 8 months very pregnant had her nasty dog turn on her over something minor . I thought she was going to have a problem but like nothing she threw that 85 lb. dog over her shoulder by the leash and walked him back to the squad . The problem was solved by the time she got there .

Not something I recommend and don't know how she didn't get bit but she was a very strong woman and could get nasty herself when need be and she took care of the problem .


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

_For people like you, Niomi, that's why I'm posting-*-you're new to training--I'm not. You have a long way to go...*_

Ya, Alice I think the statement showed some true colors. You got to be a real A-hole to say something like that. Between the statements she posted with the videos she posted she shot herself in the foot.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

_*"he's only growling for Pete's sake."

*_I can only imagine what will be said after the dog takes a bite out of Lee...

" stop yer bitching...was only a hand....you still have one left! " 

:lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee won't get bit. He has been doing this a long time.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Lee won't get bit. He has been doing this a long time.


Thanks for the vote of confidence, Don. Honestly I don't plan on getting bit. Even in a weakened state,I believe I can pull off whatever need be to get him straightened out with a minimum of hassle. 

That's why I whacked him with the cane first. I wanted to see the reaction I was going to get when I hurt him. Not counting a ecollar or prong that is the first time I ever directly hurt him. As I suspected his reaction wasn't aimed in my direction.

I will give him the benefit of the doubt for a very short while. I was feeling well enough today to work him a little bit for the first time is a long while. If I can get this back and leg problem a little better I can start doing some heeling exercises. The snow and ice is almost off the roadway for a while. That hasn't helped. I found out the hard way that a cane on ice doesn't work real good.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

im pretty damn sure Lee wont get by his own dog, he's to smart and knows his dog well enough....i was just pondering since apparantly a growling dog is nothing to be worried about according to some


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> im pretty damn sure Lee wont get by his own dog, he's to smart and knows his dog well enough....i was just pondering since apparantly a growling dog is nothing to be worried about according to some


I agree Alice. A rapid change in behavior like that is something to pay attention to. It's a signal that something is not right. In this case it was easy to figure out exactly what isn't right. 

Now it needs to be solved efficiently hopefully without any long term relationship damage.


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## russ roberts (Jun 1, 2009)

Would love to hear how Selena would deal with this.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> Just the way I do things having dealt with alot of these types of dogs . I don't correct for the growling , because the growling is just a sign and sometimes we don't know what the growling really is telling us . Disobediance or confusion ?
> 
> Because in your case many things have changed . There could be other reasons for the growling . Mainly confusion . Your voice has changed . Is it possible you're in pain when you give him commands , frustrated our pissed off at the situation because your voice isn't as effective ? Does your body language change maybe because you have to strain or are in pain trying to talk ? This dog maybe be hearing and seeing you and thinking WTF ? and that may account for his slow reaction to listening to you .
> ...
> ...


Hi Lee,

I really agree with Jim here, and of course, with Sue Miller.

I came to the forum searching for a thread and landed here and saw that there has been recent discussion on this issue. I don't know if you know or remember me, but I am not a working dog specialist, but have a fair amount of experience with working dogs. I am, professionally, an exotic animal trainer and work with many large, dangerous, animals. I hope my comments can be useful:

As Sue and Jim point out, change is confusing. Growling is a tangible expression of an emotional state and all animals are emotional first and thinking second (with the possible exception of working dog people, of course...)

"Marker training" or "bridging" as the tool is called in the business, can help an animal successfully find his way through emotional chaos. It can work like this:

The dog is upset - may even think he needs to come to action because owner is different, things are different, dog does not know if the owner does not care anymore, or has been 'taken over by aliens' or whatever. But, dog may not even be aware that his behavior has also changed. So, a place to start is to name what the dog is doing and mark it so that you can give him information about 'what is' versus 'what will be'.

It might sound like this: "'Growling'. That's 'growling'. Can you give me 'Easy'? (which would be quiet and relaxed).. ggggggGood! That's 'Easy'. Nice work. Can you give me 'Easy for 2.... 1,2? Here we go, 'Easy..1..2 Good!'" etcetera.

By leading the dog to awareness of his own actions, he has the opportunity to self correct, before you make a 'federal case' of things, and often things will start to smoothly change. Of course, the dog needs to see firm, fair, integrity and congruity from his handler, if he is to have confidence in his leadership. If your behavior and personal presence is changed due to a change in your self perception, you may want to take care of that business first.

I see from other comments in this thread that many here do not perceive the breadth of applications of markers. They think fun and motivation rather than INFORMATION. Information is what markers are really about. They are a free and easy way to give your animal partner critical information to allow them to hone their work.

Best wishes Lee!


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Hmmm.... thought I was sending a PM. Oh well! ;>


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Kayce Cover said:


> Hi Lee,
> 
> I really agree with Jim here, and of course, with Sue Miller.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with you or Sue that marker training or bridging is the way to go with this . Far from it . I was addressing what I felt might be the cause and mainly where I draw the line .


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

This thread was resurrected for the dead but I will tell you the solution with this particular dog. I started working a little OB with him to let him see who was boss.

Then I beat the hell out of him with my cane any time he started to growl. It only took 3 whoppings and situation is cured.:-D


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> This thread was resurrected for the dead but I will tell you the solution with this particular dog. I started working a little OB with him to let him see who was boss.
> 
> Then I beat the hell out of him with my cane any time he started to growl. It only took 3 whoppings and situation is cured.:-D


thanks for the update LEE


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Now that was laugh out loud funny!! Thanks for the update, Lee.

Laura

P.S. Do I have to spell out that it's not funny that the dog got in trouble, but that what worked was KISS?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Lee won't get bit. He has been doing this a long time.


Love it when I am right. Way to go Lee! Eat your heart out Alice.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Lee,

You should package it and market it, you'll make millions. Good the hear things worked out.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Lee,
> 
> You should package it and market it, you'll make millions. Good the hear things worked out.


I don't think so. It was a "old fashioned" cure to a dog problem. I just decided to meet it head on with no modern "tools" like ecollars, prongs or clickers. 

I would have felt better if I could talk and tell the dog the cane whipping was going to hurt me more than him.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I would had felt better if I could talk and tell the dog the cane whipping was going to hurt me more than him.:grin:

The thing about learning the hard way is you never forget. Don't ask me how I know this.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Love it when I am right. Way to go Lee! Eat your heart out Alice.


lmfao sure Don, Ill get right on that for ya


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I don't think so. It was a "old fashioned" cure to a dog problem. I just decided to meet it head on with no modern "tools" like ecollars, prongs or clickers.
> 
> I would have felt better if I could talk and tell the dog the cane whipping was going to hurt me more than him.


=D>

LoL... 

Obedience Cane: special introductory offer, $29.99.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah Meng - We can market it. "Get the newest, latest tool for your dog training box.:lol:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> This thread was resurrected for the dead but I will tell you the solution with this particular dog. I started working a little OB with him to let him see who was boss.
> 
> Then I beat the hell out of him with my cane any time he started to growl. It only took 3 whoppings and situation is cured.:-D


Get any video of the whoopassin ??


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Get any video of the whoopassin ??


It was hard to hold the cane and camera at the same time. I used 2 hands with the cane so I didn't hit him in a vulnerable spot. Plus it was just a aluminum cane so I needed a little power behind the swings.:grin:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

A little "wall to wall" counseling never hurt anyone...seriously.


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## Junior Johnson (Mar 19, 2010)

I was not able to read each and every thread and I apologize if what I post has already been mentioned. If the dog is collar wise, put a dominant dog collar on him and leave the collar on him and keep a lead attached to the collar at all times. Due to your condition, you may not be able to "string him up" for every growl, but you can start by correcting each and every incident if one arises and you will already have the means necessary if he acts up. I had a similar instance where I was challenged by my GSD and if you ask me, there are two principles that any protection, sport, and K9 handler should consider at all times. First, most dogs involved in the aforementioned, will usually take the path of least resistance, and Second, most dogs trained to bite or not, will constantly try to get "elevate" their rank in the pack; therefore, it is almost inevitable that any dog trained to bite, will eventually challenge you and attempt to "elevate" their pack status!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> It was hard to hold the cane and camera at the same time. I used 2 hands with the cane so I didn't hit him in a vulnerable spot. Plus it was just a aluminum cane so I needed a little power behind the swings.:grin:


How did the aluminum hold up did you dent or bend it at all?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I like it. We could attach a clicker to the handle. We could call it a "Marker Cane"
$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Meng Xiong said:


> =D>
> 
> LoL...
> 
> Obedience Cane: special introductory offer, $29.99.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Looks like Tiny Tim's crutch from A Christmas Carol...now you have a product name Chris!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> I like it. We could attach a clicker to the handle. We could call it a "Marker Cane"
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$


and a food dispenser and call it a "Candy Marker Cane"

DFrost


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Junior Johnson said:


> I was not able to read each and every thread and I apologize if what I post has already been mentioned. If the dog is collar wise, put a dominant dog collar on him and leave the collar on him and keep a lead attached to the collar at all times. Due to your condition, you may not be able to "string him up" for every growl, but you can start by correcting each and every incident if one arises and you will already have the means necessary if he acts up. I had a similar instance where I was challenged by my GSD and if you ask me, there are two principles that any protection, sport, and K9 handler should consider at all times. First, most dogs involved in the aforementioned, will usually take the path of least resistance, and Second, most dogs trained to bite or not, will constantly try to get "elevate" their rank in the pack; therefore, it is almost inevitable that any dog trained to bite, will eventually challenge you and attempt to "elevate" their pack status!


Thank you :smile:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> How did the aluminum hold up did you dent or bend it at all?


Just a scratch where I nailed him running up the staircase.


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

russ roberts said:


> Would love to hear how Selena would deal with this.


I know how Dick & Selena (and her father) would deal like this. And believe me it looks not pretty.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Junior Johnson said:


> therefore, it is almost inevitable that any dog trained to bite, will eventually challenge you and attempt to "elevate" their pack status!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Just a scratch where I nailed him running up the staircase.


No bends or dents ? .. You musta been doing it wrong!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> It was hard to hold the cane and camera at the same time. I used 2 hands with the cane so I didn't hit him in a vulnerable spot. Plus it was just a aluminum cane so I needed a little power behind the swings.:grin:


I'm glad your feeling strong again, sucks for the dog though :lol:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'm glad your feeling strong again, sucks for the dog though :lol:


It is going to be great for the dogs. I'm starting to keep them busier. They like to be occupied. For a long while I could not do anything. 

In a couple of weeks my voice box will be removed and that will begin the big heal up and getting back to a new version of "normal".


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> It is going to be great for the dogs. I'm starting to keep them busier. They like to be occupied. For a long while I could not do anything.
> 
> In a couple of weeks my voice box will be removed and that will begin the big heal up and getting back to a new version of "normal".



Good luck with that Lee . It's good to hear you have such a positive outlook on things . You have a lot of people here cheering for you .


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

David Frost said:


> and a food dispenser and call it a "Candy Marker Cane"
> 
> DFrost


Theres no limit to the possibilites. I can see some Mike Ellis dvd's on it as well.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

David Frost said:


> and a food dispenser and call it a "Candy Marker Cane"
> 
> DFrost


 
LoL... i think we're on to something! I'll start working on a prototype.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Good luck with that Lee . It's good to hear you have such a positive outlook on things . You have a lot of people here cheering for you .


My outlook wasn't always positive, Jim. My emotions have run all over the board with this mess. I've had a lot of pity parties with myself. Over time I began to realize things could be a lot worse. This stressful event has now lasted over a year.

The long term prognosis for me is still fairly positive. 

I have a young son here who I want to bring up so I'm ready to see it through. That way I will always know I gave it my best shot.


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