# SAR with Siberian husky Balto



## Pepe Vina (Jun 20, 2015)

Here are some videos of our trainings

Wilderness area search

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQw9DyzKqt0

Urban SAR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn8k76J_9C4


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting vids !

i'd put a pink collar on the K9 ... some lost souls who don't know dogs might think they were "found" by a wolf //lol//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

- very good video quality for youtube.
what kind of camera were you shooting with ?


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## Pepe Vina (Jun 20, 2015)

Thanks rick.
Good advice for the collar, i will try orange instead of pink 
Thats why i put on him red harness.

Camera is Nikon Coolpix AW100, and also have a little tripod


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

another thread made me think about this one ....

Q's that came to mind as i watched the training

1. is the dog barking to get a treat from the victim or is it barking to alert the handler to its position ?
2. will the dog leave if it doesn't get the treat ?
3. will the dog leave after it does get the treat ?
4. will the dog return to the handler after a certain amount of time expires that it doesn't get rewarded
5. are treats only given to end the rep ?
6. when are treats faded from the training sets and how is it done ?

the answers to these Q's might be obvious if i saw a full training session, but since they seemed like random clips, i thought i would ask anyway; even if they are dumb questions


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## Pepe Vina (Jun 20, 2015)

they are not dumb questions 

1. its barking for reward, like it is learned
2. no, he wont leave, he will bark until he gets his reward
3. yes, if im not near, he will leave after the reward and come straight to me
4. no, dog barks until its rewarded, or until i came to him and victim
5. yes, treats are only given to end the rep
6. treats are never faded from the trainings, only in real action simulations victim doesnt reward the dog, reward is done by the handler when he come to the dog and the victim


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I love seeing how different areas use different ways to alert. Using a husky for a bark alert is smart, lol.. They love to talk! My gsd/malamute wants to talk before a search, and for his refind alert (he is taught to run back to me, hit my legs and bark and take me to the subject), for dinner, if he is excited, when he is happy.... You get the picture  

Beautiful dog and country! Is your dog scent discriminate (I. E. a scent article is used) or trained to find any person in the area?


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## Pepe Vina (Jun 20, 2015)

Thank you Misty 
He is a very talkative dog 

We never tried scent discrimination. We only do SAR trainings, and on trainings we are searching any person in the area, or multiple persons.

We cover area of about 15-20 ha.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Very nice work!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i guess i could understand the "find anyone" method in isolated wilderness areas, but i think that might be a problem in an area with campgrounds, cabins, etc 
- regarding urban SAR, if "urban" means areas where there are a lot of people i could see problems with a "find anyone" approach
(the urban vids looked different from what i would consider "urban")

curious .... is this the same way you other "SAR folks" train ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for Pepe

the video clips shown had people stationary and somewhat hidden....

would the dog approach and alert the same way if the victim was not stationary and simply wandering around (like a lost hiker) ?
- do you train for that type of situation also ?

- if so, at what part in the training program would you introduce "wandering" victims and how do you set it up ?


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## Pepe Vina (Jun 20, 2015)

rick smith said:


> i guess i could understand the "find anyone" method in isolated wilderness areas, but i think that might be a problem in an area with campgrounds, cabins, etc
> - regarding urban SAR, if "urban" means areas where there are a lot of people i could see problems with a "find anyone" approach
> (the urban vids looked different from what i would consider "urban")
> 
> curious .... is this the same way you other "SAR folks" train ?


We dont have a lot of area with cabins and campground, well we do but searching actions are generally in remoted areas.
We do urban sar simulating some natural disasters in urban area, same like in area search, dog is marking only people in unnatural positions, or hidden ones.

I think that majority or SAR groups in our area train this way



rick smith said:


> for Pepe
> 
> the video clips shown had people stationary and somewhat hidden....
> 
> ...


No, the dog wouldnt alert if the victim was not stationary.
We dont train for that type of situation. I heard of some groups train that way, but never saw it personally.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> i guess i could understand the "find anyone" method in isolated wilderness areas, but i think that might be a problem in an area with campgrounds, cabins, etc
> - regarding urban SAR, if "urban" means areas where there are a lot of people i could see problems with a "find anyone" approach
> (the urban vids looked different from what i would consider "urban")
> 
> curious .... is this the same way you other "SAR folks" train ?


This type of training is done and the dogs are called "General Wilderness" or just "Wilderness" dogs. Yes, locating non-target people could be a pain but its done somewhat on purpose. Because it gives you a chance to interview the subject to see if they might have seen the missing person or can tell you where they have come from (again to see if they saw anything out of the ordinary or the missig subject). How you deploy these dogs (or even if they get used) can depend on how many folks are present. Not feisible in the actual camping site area if in heavy use but very practical on the associated leisure areas or footpaths. However, if the camping areas are in light use then it becomes practical with limitations. Its a judgment thing.

And urban can be a all incompassing term. It can really depend on the individual's definition. Because of the presence of buildings and human habitat some will call it urban as opposed to wilderness or forest where its all woods and a natural setting. I knew one gal who called any area that had a building as a "town" and any place that didn't as "forest" or "field".


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Thanks for the clarifications

in another thread it seemed to imply that working for rewards was often a weak way to train.

i think these video clips show clearly that a dog can also be taught to do professional work by primarily working solely for rewards.... including food treats; which many people feel are only appropriate for "pets" 

for me, even when i see a training video clip, i always want to know what happens before and after in the process. to me they are just a small segment of any training program and the people who i consider good trainers can always answer the "before" and "after" questions ... and then i can learn rather than just be entertained by "cool vids" that are fun to watch


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Nice! So neat to see a super well trained and obedient husky! They have such an independent streak I don't think I've ever seen any trained for this type of work. Nice focus! Even when he got the verbal correction for putting a paw on the subject he kept with the barking. 

Most of the area search dogs in my area don't scent discriminate. It's mostly just the trailers that scent discriminate.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Both my dogs (GSD and a gsd/malamute cross) work for food. Areli, the GSD works because she over it! Even after a find, she is praised and given high value food reward which she takes, but often leaves to sniff something else before all the food is given out. She basically tells you how much reward she needs then moves on. Akivah, the mix will eat anything and everything and definitely works because he is getting a reward... And for fun... But definitely a reward,  

Huskys are definitely harder to train imho because of the independence... However, not impossible, and if their run desire is fulfilled with a purpose (like SAR), then you can have a dog that goes all day has great energy, and is obedient...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

that dogs will work for food is such a no brainer that it should NEVER be questioned in any serious training conversation

with that said ... there are LOTS and LOTS of trainers out there, many who consider themselves serious trainers of serious working dogs, who stick their nose in the air or smirk whenever the subject gets brought up
...i'm sure there might even be a few lurking on the WDF //lol//

that was the point i was trying to make


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and of COURSE food can be misused like any other training tool //lol//


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I was supporting your point Rick  I know I was questioned by some if my dog would have enough 'drive' because a food reward was used instead of toy.... She works most dogs into the ground... The other day, after HRD, after a long trail /track, she broke from the car to find the subject I was working my area dog on (grrr)... She found the subject before he did!


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I know of a few people that don't believe you can train a really good dog Using only food rewards. 
Since food is a basic motivator for life in general I'm not too sure of that statement. 

I have hounds so food is life. Lol


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

rick smith said:


> i guess i could understand the "find anyone" method in isolated wilderness areas, but i think that might be a problem in an area with campgrounds, cabins, etc
> - regarding urban SAR, if "urban" means areas where there are a lot of people i could see problems with a "find anyone" approach
> (the urban vids looked different from what i would consider "urban") curious .... is this the same way you other "SAR folks" train ?


Clear the area/find anyone. That's how wilderness area search is taught by RCMP who mentor SAR teams in Canada. Maybe the difference is SAR in very populated countries vs. wilderness SAR in less populated countries & areas. In latter case, it can be helpful to "find anyone" in area, because even if that person isn't the lost person, they can be asked about what they have seen/heard and more info can be collected that might get the lost person found.

It is cool to watch the sled dog working. How did you get your initial training? How long have they trained for wilderness area search this way in your country? Does anyone else you know there reward with wild tug game at source, not food reward? But reward would depend on what the particular dog thinks is highest value, so if it's food, that's what you use!

Thanks for making the videos. Keep up the good work with Balto.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Meg
Pepe said his K9 would NOT alert on a person who is not stationary. that means the K9 is not trained to find "any human". the dog has been trained to discriminate.

- i can understand there is some benefit to a dog alerting on anyone so that they could be questioned to see if they could provide any info on the lost person, etc

but if you teach a dog to only alert on stationary people that are mostly hidden from plain view, wouldn't that also require some proofing to NOT alert on a "non victim" walking around or in plain sight, etc ? 
- i think it might be easy at first, if the other "non victims" are other team members the dogs knows, but i would be interested to know specifically how this is taught and proofed using people the dog does not know that might have different reactions to the dog when they see it, etc


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

It would seem to me that a SAR dog would alert on everyone, moving or not. I don't think every person in need of rescue would be stationary. Now, I can see that this might be a PITA in certain situations but why cut your chances in half of finding a person in need of rescue? What if the lost person is just wandering around, the dog finds that mobile person, then leaves them? Doesn't make sense.

Rick...I'm one of those people who poo poo'd the use of food with working dogs but changed my position on that a few years ago. Matter of fact, I'm getting ready to use food to slow my dog down a bit with his tracking. Near full sprints in trailing suspects has left me nearly exhausted to a point of being unable to defend myself after long tracks....losing my backup officers...and missing turns on unknown tracks in real world deployments. Plus, I'm getting too damn old.](*,)


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

We train our area search dogs to alert on any human (unless scent specific) because a lost person very well might be wandering around disoriented, or just lost movement.. 

My girl used to run every track as well.. Thankfully, she has slowed some (although there are times she still wants to run). I am not in LE, so I don't have to worry about a fight at the end (SAR shouldn't have that problem, lol).. I added alot of turns, serpentine, box patterns, and VST (asphalt /concrete /packed gravel) with turns to help her slow down... Thus far it has worked and helped 'stick' turns she used to ride fringe scent on.... I'm sure others have better ways to help slow eager trackers down. 

I personally prefer not using food on the track at anytime... For my girl, she is a picky eater so not too much worry there, however, my male is not so picky (read garbage truck gut) and I don't want him thinking it is OK to snack on whatever he finds as he goes... Just my thoughts


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> Matter of fact, I'm getting ready to use food to slow my dog down a bit with his tracking. Near full sprints in trailing suspects has left me nearly exhausted to a point of being unable to defend myself after long tracks....losing my backup officers...and missing turns on unknown tracks in real world deployments. Plus, I'm getting too damn old.


I ended up teaching the command "slow", "walk", and "careful". Slow means just that slow down. Might still be a jog but it's faster than "walk" which means just that - walk. "careful" means we are picking and chosing our way across something and both of us are watching our footing.

The biggest issue is that the dog tends to lean into the harness more so keep the elbows down next to the body to help protect your rotator cuffs.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I find I use similar words for Areli and she is learning to rate her speed, although she hasn't fully learned to maintain it, lol.. Great advice about elbows in... Man, they can pull hard!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Misty Wegner said:


> I personally prefer not using food on the track at anytime... For my girl, she is a picky eater so not too much worry there, however, my male is not so picky (read garbage truck gut) and I don't want him thinking it is OK to snack on whatever he finds as he goes... Just my thoughts


 This is my reasoning as well. I've tried to teach an "Easy' command but he still wants to run. I've used a pinch on him in concert with the harness to slow him down but once the pinch is gone he reverts to top speed. Hard surface, gravel, sand, whatever, it doesn't matter to him. He knows the game now...tone alert on radio, followed by fast driving, followed by excited radio traffic, followed by deployment, followed by physical apprehension. It can be a tough cycle to break. Don't really want to use a lot of force with him to slow him down so I figured reverting to some FST would help.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

First, Pepe sorry if your thread gets hijacked for a moment.... 

Howard, I'm not in LE, so I am not sure if this idea would work for you or not, as your training might be entirely different due to expectations... Since your dog is working off emotional conditioned response and amps up and then blows through turns, etc.. Could you set up similar scenarios without a bark and hold or bite at the end, with serpentine tracks (to help slow the roll/run) etc longer than short and maybe use a longer line (not sure what you use length wise currently, but this would be for training not actual) so you don't have to run as hard.. Obviously a rewarding treat should be available and offered once a find is made, but not his usual - if that is what amps him to an over the top response... Just a thought.. I don't know how you normally train or if this would mess anything up, so just a thought from a different perspective  Believe me when I say, I am in MUCH better shape since my girl started SAR, and I was in good shape before, lol! So I have empathy for you


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Well, I'm in pretty good shape for 558) Our 3 other handlers hate to run tracks with me because they always gas out before me.

I use a 16 ft long line only. We have 30 and 50 footers but I find them more of a PITA than anything due to the fact that he always gets hung up in the thick stuff. Too dangerous trying to keep things tidy when there's bad guys in the woods with you. I don't need anything to distract me any more than what I already have.

Not all training tracks bring a bite so that's not an issue to worry about. Anyway, we're getting off topic here and I do believe there is already another thread on this subject.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> It can be a tough cycle to break. Don't really want to use a lot of force with him to slow him down so I figured reverting to some FST would help.


Its going to be tough because the dog's used to it now. With my hard puller, I ended up being the boat anchor which just made him pull harder. One trick that did help was taking the trailing lead and putting a half hitch around his loin area. The harder he pulled the more it tightened up on him and the more uncomfortable it was for him. Less pulling, the half hitch would loosen up. That plus the command work helped. (as did him aging) but it helped with the short fast tracks or when he was all juiced up, then as he settled into the trail, I could remove the half hitch.

The FST may help until he gets amped up on a real pursuit then I think it will all disappear in an instant.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

i've only been involved in SAR for a little over a year so i am fairly green myself... but it's my understanding that there are different techniques for different situations... ie 'wilderness' SAR you are trying to clear a really large area where there are not likely to be many people apart from your team and possibly the victim, so you want the dog to find anyone, concealed or not, ambulatory or not... but for USAR / disaster search the dog is in a smaller area (or smaller search area at the time, at least, i can imagine the areas covered in places like Christchurch and Nepal were massive), with a lot of people present, who are upright and walking around... this is what i've been training for with my dog for, and he has learnt to find the scent of a concealed person that he cannot see, and that folk who are on top of the rubble or moving around in a building are of no value to him... 

the dog in this video appears to work nicely, but the only thing i would point out are that all his victims seem to be visible... even when they are down in a hole they are not covered over completely and the dog can still see? what happens if someone is completely concealed and the dog can not see them?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> One trick that did help was taking the trailing lead and putting a half hitch around his loin area. The harder he pulled the more it tightened up on him and the more uncomfortable it was for him. Less pulling, the half hitch would loosen up.


 Stellar idea. I will try it



> The FST may help until he gets amped up on a real pursuit then I think it will all disappear in an instant.


 I'm sure you are right. One can only hope though.

Back to topic.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jay Quinn said:


> . but for USAR / disaster search the dog is in a smaller area (or smaller search area at the time, at least, i can imagine the areas covered in places like Christchurch and Nepal were massive), with a lot of people present, who are upright and walking around... this is what i've been training for with my dog for, and he has learnt to find the scent of a concealed person that he cannot see, and that folk who are on top of the rubble or moving around in a building are of no value to him...


 In this case I believe in situational training and the dogs' ability to adapt to certain enviromental conditions and work independently. Lots of dogs will perform a task without distraction given certain parameters. If you only allow alerts to hidden persons in a huge rubble field in training I'm sure they will do the same during a live deployment despite having other rescue personel in the immediate area.


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## Pepe Vina (Jun 20, 2015)

rick smith said:


> Thanks for the clarifications
> 
> in another thread it seemed to imply that working for rewards was often a weak way to train.
> 
> i think these video clips show clearly that a dog can also be taught to do professional work by primarily working solely for rewards.... including food treats; which many people feel are only appropriate for "pets"


I dont see a reason why not use food reward if it is a high value for a dog.
Not every dog wants and likes to play.



mel boschwitz said:


> I know of a few people that don't believe you can train a really good dog Using only food rewards.
> Since food is a basic motivator for life in general I'm not too sure of that statement.
> 
> I have hounds so food is life. Lol


I think that a food is greater motivator than a toy. But i like both of them. Handler must find what is most apropriate for his dog.



Meg O'Donovan said:


> It is cool to watch the sled dog working. How did you get your initial training? How long have they trained for wilderness area search this way in your country? Does anyone else you know there reward with wild tug game at source, not food reward? But reward would depend on what the particular dog thinks is highest value, so if it's food, that's what you use!
> 
> Thanks for making the videos. Keep up the good work with Balto.


I started training with my friend who was training with his GSD, he advise me to go on trainings when he saw Balto for the first time.

I didnt understand the question "How long have they trained for wilderness area this way in your country?" 

Yes, we have a friend with Border collie that likes thug of war and one friend with Labrador that used thug of war for a long time, and his dog was so unmotivated for work, and then after 2 years he discovers that he is full motivated on a ball and now after he made that switch the difference is huge.



Jay Quinn said:


> i've only been involved in SAR for a little over a year so i am fairly green myself... but it's my understanding that there are different techniques for different situations... ie 'wilderness' SAR you are trying to clear a really large area where there are not likely to be many people apart from your team and possibly the victim, so you want the dog to find anyone, concealed or not, ambulatory or not... but for USAR / disaster search the dog is in a smaller area (or smaller search area at the time, at least, i can imagine the areas covered in places like Christchurch and Nepal were massive), with a lot of people present, who are upright and walking around... this is what i've been training for with my dog for, and he has learnt to find the scent of a concealed person that he cannot see, and that folk who are on top of the rubble or moving around in a building are of no value to him...
> 
> the dog in this video appears to work nicely, but the only thing i would point out are that all his victims seem to be visible... even when they are down in a hole they are not covered over completely and the dog can still see? what happens if someone is completely concealed and the dog can not see them?


We dont search for non stationary victims because there are lot of people included in search, from Mountain rescue service, police, local hunting clubs and firefighters. There are really lot of people on the area, and the dog doesnt know where are excatly boundaries of our area.
In SAR there are also always people on the scene.

I planed to add more different situations on the clip, but i already had a lot of material 
Yes, we do also with completely covered victims and the dog is marking them normally.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

Pepe Vina said:


> Yes, we do also with completely covered victims and the dog is marking them normally.


nice


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Pepe,

Don't let Rick rattle you or make you scratch your head to much. Those of us who do the work get it. Those of us who have trained with sar folks in Europe get it even more.

Some of the difference between your work there and the stuff we do in the States is somewhat different but that is because your situation there is different. I did not think there would be until I spent some time there and talked/worked with other sar folks over there. I felt like a beginner all over again. But I learned and I don't think it was all one-sided.

I liked your videos and liked Balto. A lot. Please continue to post and enable me to keep learning more.


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## Pepe Vina (Jun 20, 2015)

Dont wory, im not scratching my head 
Im just answering the questions 

Thank you.


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