# Dutchie poss pancreatic insufficiency



## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Anyone have any experience with EPI? I know it's really common in GSDs. Has anyone heard of it in a mal or dutchie? I have only seen it personally in shepherds and one Bernese Mt Dog. My 11 mo old boy (van Leeuwen and le Dobry lines) has been having some symptoms and I'm considering sending off the test next week. He's very thin, esp considering that he eats almost 8 cups of food a day. His stools have been unformed (sometimes loose, sometimes formed, mostly cow patty) for several months. He did test positive for Giardia recently. Ran a course of metronidazole, five days panacur. he didn't seem to get much better. on trifexis monthly. He has always been on taste of the wild; for awhile, I was mixing in the diamond extreme athlete stuff, but I haven't been recently. He really does look like an EPI dog, except that his stools aren't oily. they are the typical color and consistency, though. 

so my plan right now is - one more week of Metronidazole. Taste of the wild, grizzly oil like normal. Adding fortiflora to diet BID. injections of B12. Trifexis on the first as usual. maybe a vitamin supplement? considering adding canned pumpkin for more fiber. If he doesnt show improvement in a week, then I'll fast him for the test. 

So does anyone else had similar issues with chronic loose stools that turned out to be something other than EPI? what worked? and if anyone has heard of mals or dutchies with EPI, let me know. 

I'm going to be pretty cranky if I have a problem with my breed that I specifically got for hardiness after all my health tested Dobermanns died from cancer


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sounds like you are self diagnosing and treating
if you suspect EPI, you WON'T diagnose it thru stool analysis
research EPI
see a vet
have the vet do the test and rule it in/out before you worry about it anymore


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

not self diagnosing. i work for a practice with two vets. one suspects EPI. the other thinks he is still struggling with the giardia. that's why I'm going to try more metronidazole and see if it helps before spending the money to send out the EPI test


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

if he doesn't get better by next week, we will fast him to send out the TLI. But he's been having problems for a few months - one more week won't hurt.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm not a kibble feeder, but if I had a dog that was always on TOTW and always had soft poop, I'd probably change kibbles and proteins to see if that made a difference. I'd cut out the oil too. Yeah, I'd probably be supposed to change only one thing at a time, but I'm not like that. 

Don't some dogs just not do well on certain kibble?

Laura


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Ive changed formulas of totw. The venison and bison is what he is on now, though I used the salmon for awhile. I haven't tried another kind. I know there are more good grain free foods, i honestly just haven't looked.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I thought my dog had EPI as well. I got a lot of information over at epi4dogs.com ... they have a great website with lots of information on the condition. I was actually excited we would finally find out what was wrong with my dog but he tested in the absolutely dead middle of the normal range on his TLI and B12/malabsorption profile. 

There was another thread on here about putting weight on a skinny dog and I went through a list of everything I had tried ... and its pretty much exhaustive of EVERYTHING you can think of. Kibble changes, enzymes, supplements, etc. 

We never have found out whats 'wrong' with him although I think it has something to do with having Parvo when he was a puppy because he was perfectly normal looking up until then, and after parvo he could not keep weight on and we did repeated cycles of flagyl and albon to firm him up and nothing worked and he contiued to be about 15-20 lbs underweight. 

The only thing that has made him LOOK normal is giving him 1-2 turkey tails every meal in addition to chicken backs. I've run out of turkey tails and given him more chicken backs as a substitute and he will drop the weight within 2 weeks (we are talking about going from a 80lb dog to a 65lb dog which at his height puts him in a very emaciated condition. I had tried dozens of other things that are high fat/high calorie and done other versions of prefabricated raw and kibble and absolutely nothing gave me results except giving him turkey tails consistently.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I'm not a kibble feeder, but if I had a dog that was always on TOTW and always had soft poop, I'd probably change kibbles and proteins to see if that made a difference. I'd cut out the oil too. Yeah, I'd probably be supposed to change only one thing at a time, but I'm not like that.
> 
> Don't some dogs just not do well on certain kibble?
> 
> Laura


What Laura said.

Taste of the Wild is ok food, but there are better foods available. When my Mal was young, I was up to 6 cups of Wellness a dayand he was still thin with mostly pudding poop. Changing to a higher protein/higher calorie food worked for him and got portion size more reasonable.

Even now, if I switch to a different brand of (not super premium stupidly expensive) kibble, he'll do okay for a few weeks and then the pounds just seem to melt off him.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I think we are going to try 10 days of panacur and another five days of metronidazole. I don't know what other food to switch to. I used Canidae before the totw, but that isn't grain free.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

No, not known epi


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

I have not seen EPI in Dutchies. I have seen it once in a registered Mal.


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## Angie Schmidt (Dec 5, 2007)

I can tell you what worked for me.
Chronic loose stool for months, even a couple of weeks are bad for the dog, totally throw the dog's digestive track off balance. I had dogs that had loose stools on grain-free kibble. A lot of the grain-free kibbles are based on potato and some dogs don't do well on potato. To see if it was food or dog problem, I tried 2 things. One is to put the dog on a 100% balanced raw diet and nothing else. It worked for me. If raw diet was not possible, I would put the dog on grain-based kibble. The 2 kibbles that worked for me was the Pro Plan Salmon (rice based) or if you need a higher fat content, the Pro Plan Performance (unfortunately it is corn based). This worked too. I generally don't like kibble but when a dog is suffering anything that works is good. One thing to remember, no supplements or any treats when trying out the food, supplements can mess up dog's digestion too.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I hope this is just complications from giardia. If so, it still might be difficult to fix, but at least it CAN be fixed.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

These can be very frustrating to do a work up for. Could also be IBD instead of EPI. When I work up this kind of issue, I start them on a cooked diet first with novel protein/carb source and do a strict diet trial just like a food allergy trial for 8-12 weeks. I do not start on raw. If they have something like IBD, I don't want the gut going bananas with the extra bacterial load. Unless you're going to give raw pancreas (which is an option if it truly is EPI), there is no advantage to doing raw versus cooked. You can PM me if you'd like further help on formulating this.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow lady. Sounds like a lot. My observation is you're moving a bit fast. Firstly you never confirmed whether or not you tried other kibble or not. You jumped straight into some other medical based reasoning and testing for a presumed/assumed condition. How old is the dog? If he is still young then you need to consider the rate of his metabolism and feed accordingly. Secondly, you're feeding an "okay" kibble (TOTW) and then adding or switching to an even worse kibble (I'd not feed Diamond to any dog/pup). Neither of which is known for keeping weight on a dog that won't gain (Although I'm sure there are exceptions). Canidae ain't all that either. Poo is not well formed and its very fibrous. 
I'm not surprised at the poop quality w/ this kind of feed. You're also adding oil which doesn't seem to pair well w/ what you're feeding. While it is important it could be helping cause the soft/loose stool. Look for another kibble. One that contains grain even. Some dogs do well on rice or pasta or peas or CARBS as part of their meal. Extra carb may help w/ weight gain. Are you near any specialty pet stores? If so, look for other high quality kibble (i.e. Robert Abady feeds, Red Paw, Eagle Pack, etc.). I've fed all the kibbles you listed. Eventually I went to raw w/ Abady Feed as a supplement or all raw and I've never looked back. I've gotten great results w/ it. My first working malinois I did have some issues keeping weight on her when she was young. They normally have very high metabolisms and require a great deal more nutrition during their growth cycles. I've had minimal trouble keeping weight on working malinois during growth feeding what I am feeding now. If you're accustomed to raising young dobes, I'm sure they differ greatly from malinois and dutch shepherds in their development. Again, I wish you the best w/ your dog's health. HOpe he will be okay.


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