# Looking For Video (KNPV)



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Has anyone found some video of KNPV trials with dogs that target the legs only. If so, could you post them here


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

todd pavlus said:


> Has anyone found some video of KNPV trials with dogs that target the legs only. If so, could you post them here


what are you looking for specificly ?

most dogs do the armbite and only do legwork on guarding the object (even then mostly armbite) the throwattack (some do arm some do leg)
the bike attack (back of the leg) and the assault on the handler during transport (and even then some dogs go for the arm) 

I have plenty of trialvids of my own dogs and other clubmembers but as I say with mostly armbites appart from the throwattack and the bikeattack...i think you will be hardpressed to find a complete KNPVtrial with legbites only.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I think fokrohof kennels has a video of one of their dogs doing a leg attack on a long send. but alice pretty much summed that up.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

if i ever get the footage of my camera, i have a vid.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm familiar with the program, and the bicep bites. To narrow it down, I would like to see legs bites on the long attack. Why don't more people train the legs in KNPV. Is it just because the bicep bite on the long attack looks more impressive.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

todd pavlus said:


> I'm familiar with the program, and the bicep bites. To narrow it down, I would like to see legs bites on the long attack. Why don't more people train the legs in KNPV. Is it just because the bicep bite on the long attack looks more impressive.


:lol:

try taking a large dog on the leg with the stickattack and you will answer youre own question right then and there 

basicly frontal attacks are arm and from behind are legbites, has nothing to do with impressive at all has to do with saving the dog and the decoy from breaking something (in my opinion) you will sometimes see the smaller dogs come on the leg when doing a frontal attack but this is still very rare...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I think the dutch are just scared


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> :lol:
> 
> try taking a large dog on the leg with the stickattack and you will answer youre own question right then and there
> 
> basicly frontal attacks are arm and from behind are legbites, has nothing to do with impressive at all has to do with saving the dog and the decoy from breaking something (in my opinion) you will sometimes see the smaller dogs come on the leg when doing a frontal attack but this is still very rare...


I understand the safety issue, but would still like to see how a decoy would handle that


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

todd pavlus said:


> I understand the safety issue, but would still like to see how a decoy would handle that


look from 2.20 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ9yWGD7no4&feature=player_embedded#!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Teaching a GOOD frontal stickattackat the leg, is more difficult for the handler as well as the decoy, AND indeed most handlers think a frontal armattack looks more spectacular.

I myself are a fan of allround stickattacks at the leg. Problem is you can only teach the dog with the help from the right decoy. We ourselves have at our club a young decoy, who i´m teaching to work a dog the right way at leggattacks. Looks promising.
My current dog (Duvel) is working the program at the legg allround.(planning for his PH-I is summer or fall this year) My Wibo also is.

Must also say,that a dog at the legg with the stickattack must be tough. The contact on the leather-jute suit on the shin with a forward running decoy, is a lot harder than at the arm/schouldeattack is.

Dick


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I KNOW I have seen video footage of dogs taking the leg on the long bite when the decoy drops the gun and is walking away from the dog. and THINK I have seen a few with dogs hitting the legs on the stick attack.

Whether I can ever find them again is a different story...

here is that vid from isrealdogs...Not sure if it is officially KNPV, but look like knpv training at least... you can see one dog take the leg at 5:17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKf3Vhh0iWY

I have seen some others...I'll look around...

Given the nature of the stick attack, I can't see a reason to target the leg purposefully, for safety reasons...seems like they would have to change the execution of the exercise from the decoy, to be able to catch the dogs safely...how many of those impacts could a decoy or the dog take wothout being injured? One? Two? 

I doubt "fear" has anything to do with it..LOL, the "reality" of broken legs and dogs is more likely the reason for not targeting legs...

yeah what dick said...did not see his response before posting


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> look from 2.20
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ9yWGD7no4&feature=player_embedded#!


Lekker voorbeeld, Alice....:-o.:-s:-#:-#

Dick


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjvXc-iHQ1o&feature=related
4:00 mark...again not the stick attack...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Lekker voorbeeld, Alice....:-o.:-s:-#:-#
> 
> Dick


tsja wat moet je anders :lol: kon geen kwaliteit vinden dus dit was t dan wel whahahaha


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

still can´t import the vid from my camera to the laptop (have been trying for the last hr), so I could show a GOOD example of a leg stick attack.. will.keep trying later on the other comp.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> can import the vid from my camera to the laptop, so I could show a GOOD example of a leg stick attack...keep trying.


LOL...I don't think there are many to find...I'm done trying...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> LOL...I don't think there are many to find...I'm done trying...


damn Joby, you were to fast...i edited my sentence to a sentence which made sense.


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## Barry Connell (Jul 25, 2010)

My second imported PH1 dog (Ferico Perle de Tourbiere) was an all leg bite dog. I have the video of his bitework in his trial on VHS and will see if I can convert it and post it. He scored 433 in 1997. He was handled by Leo de Vroede.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> tsja wat moet je anders :lol: kon geen kwaliteit vinden dus dit was t dan wel whahahaha



"whahahaha"

I never realized I understood some Dutch


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Barry Connell said:


> My second imported PH1 dog (Ferico Perle de Tourbiere) was an all leg bite dog. I have the video of his bitework in his trial on VHS and will see if I can convert it and post it. He scored 433 in 1997. He was handled by Leo de Vroede.


 
I know that dog very well. Leo was our clubmember and I helped Leo an did decoywork for him several times a week.
Nice sportdog btw

Leo was close in participating the nationals with Rico.

Rico was Leo's first KNPV-dog. (after being one of the wold best Schh decoys in that time)

Dick


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Must also say,that a dog at the legg with the stickattack must be tough. The contact on the leather-jute suit on the shin with a forward running decoy, is a lot harder than at the arm/schouldeattack is.


I totally agree Dick, I'd go on to say if a lot of dogs in your program start doing this you will see an up in the average of decoys and dogs getting injured. Just the nature of how this attack is set up for the KNPV with the charge at the dog, going for the leg is an injury just waiting to happen, IMHO. 

Dogs get killed, injured (teeth, neck, back) and decoys get hurt more from this exercise than any other in French Ringsport. Even with the French Ringsport the decoy has numerous techniques to keep himself and the dog safe doing face attacks just by the nature on how the attack is set up, i.e. esquives and absorbing. 

The charge during the KNPV exercise and even a properly executed 'real' long bite in SchH (if it was allowed a leg bite) the collisions with leg bites will be epic. The decoy will have to be very skilled and lucky to keep everyone/thing safe.


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Looks like this is an leg dog only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7nGv8r9b9Y

Personally i don't prefer a leg bite on the stick attack for a variety of reasons.
Also leg biters (on the stick attack around here) are generally GSD's or small female Mals.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Is indeed an all leg dog. Handler is Monic Langelaar, was in 2010 in the object championships with this dog. You can see her spouse, Ronald van Leeuwen, working the dog in a training situation. Ronald is a former national decoy (algemeen helper) who decoyed a few times in the national championships.
Although we have the same surname, he´s no family. Dog is though. MR Zero is a young Bunker (Tommy-son, Rocky-grandson).


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## Barry Connell (Jul 25, 2010)

...finally got the video converted!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT98TQ8sl0U

Dick, do you what Leo is up to these days? I kept in contact with him for a while until I changed computers and lost his e-mail.

Barry


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Barry Connell said:


> ...finally got the video converted!!!!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT98TQ8sl0U
> 
> ...



looks like Almere "phv de vriendschap" ?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Barry Connell said:


> ...finally got the video converted!!!!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT98TQ8sl0U
> 
> ...


 
We go back a long way. We started both as young boys (13/14 years old) at my fathers Sch.h club in Amsterdam. He stayed in Sch.h / IPO a long time before he crossed over to KNPV (Rico was his first dog in KNPV (trained at our club). I crossed over to KNPV much earlier.

Nowadays, Leo completely quitted dogsport already awhile ago. He even doesn´t own a dog anymore. He´s into fly-fishing these days. 
Goes a lot to Ireland and Scotland to do some fishing.

Dick


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> looks like Almere "phv de vriendschap" ?


yep!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

René Hendriks said:


> Personally i don't prefer a leg bite on the stick attack for a variety of reasons.


How so? I'm a fan of the sport but don't know a lot about the KNPV sport in how they judge the character and such of the dog. So I'd love the hear how you would evaluate it. 

To me it gives the impression that the dog is avoiding or by tactics negating the threat of the stick when it goes in low. Not that it shows a weak dog, just a different training tactic that still stops the man. There is a lot less pressure on the dog from the stick presentation style when it goes low just the way that exercise is set up the way I see it. The videos I see here the entries and collisions are not as hard as I see with a dog that is going to the shoulder or bicep. 

Is that your impression too?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

@ Geoff: shoulder/bicep will always "give in" so confrontation is always lesser than on the shin, which won't give in.
A leg dog must not come veryhard (running i mean), he needs more time to time his bite otherwise he misses the leg or hurt himself or the decoy. We learn the dog to look and time, by using techniques which are quite similar as the esquive in ring


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes the video with Rico the decoy did nice technique to absorb the dog. Like I had mentioned earlier in the thread the dog going for the leg on the stick attack, the decoy has to slow the pressure of the charge against the dog or the possibility of major injury for both man and dog is very real. 

I would wonder if the presentation of the stick would start to evolve to more of a French Ring style 'barrage' if more dogs are trained to go to the legs to keep the stick pressure on the dog?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

decoy doesnt always know if dog is a leg or armbiter ;-)


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

@Geoff, respect for the decoy would be one on the top of my list.

Like Selena mentioned, a fast dog is very unpleasant for the decoy on the front leg with the stick.
Maybe the club decoy doesn't mind, but as soon as you work the dog on a decoy from a neighboring club he might have a different opinion.
Last thing you want is that the decoy is working your dog with "tegenzin". (don't know the English, but something like not motivated)

Also the risk for injury increases a good amount for decoy and dog, for the dog especially neck injury.

And a good dog you need to slow down a lot to make it "safe" for a leg-bite on the stick attack, 
than in my view its more practical to leave the speed and put him on the shoulder.
its probability also more fun for the dog.


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> How so? I'm a fan of the sport but don't know a lot about the KNPV sport in how they judge the character and such of the dog. So I'd love the hear how you would evaluate it.
> 
> To me it gives the impression that the dog is avoiding or by tactics negating the threat of the stick when it goes in low. Not that it shows a weak dog, just a different training tactic that still stops the man. There is a lot less pressure on the dog from the stick presentation style when it goes low just the way that exercise is set up the way I see it. The videos I see here the entries and collisions are not as hard as I see with a dog that is going to the shoulder or bicep.
> 
> Is that your impression too?


It does not matter when trained the right way if the dog comes high or low on the stick attack. The pressure does not come just from the stick, body language and voice of the decoy are very important too. And last but not least the hit the dog gets from the stick just before the impact with the decoy.
It is for a decoy easier to hit a dog with the stick when the dog goes for the leg than when the dog goes for the upper body.
It took me years to coordinate myself correct so that I could hit any dog that would come high on the courage test. Leg biters was quite easy.
Lastly, if you would decide that you make your dog a leg biter you better make sure that the dog had 100+% courage and fight. That's because at every trial you would enter you can bet your money on it that your dog will get hit hard with the stick on the stick attack. When the dog comes high it depends on how experienced the decoy is if the dog gets hit.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks René and Rik I appreciate your inputs. That exactly what I was thinking, "tegenzin" yes the word I think is "aversion" in English. While yes you want to fool the decoy and get maximum points in trial you still want the respect for the decoys work and health for him and the dog. Once the word gets out about a dog in trial, word travels fast. 

My thought Rik was more the threat presentation of the stick before the attack itself with the charge of the decoy that give a lot of the pressure too. To me when the dog targets the leg that's the point where the dog removes the visual pressure of the stick threat presentation and decoy charge cause it is targeting low. I know dogs that have more aversion to the threat and pressure of the stick itself than to the stick hits themselves, as stick hits just makes some dogs mad and fight harder in my experience with the Ring dogs and clubs I've been involved with.


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Thanks René and Rik I appreciate your inputs. That exactly what I was thinking, "tegenzin" yes the word I think is "aversion" in English. While yes you want to fool the decoy and get maximum points in trial you still want the respect for the decoys work and health for him and the dog. Once the word gets out about a dog in trial, word travels fast.
> 
> My thought Rik was more the threat presentation of the stick before the attack itself with the charge of the decoy that give a lot of the pressure too. To me when the dog targets the leg that's the point where the dog removes the visual pressure of the stick threat presentation and decoy charge cause it is targeting low. I know dogs that have more aversion to the threat and pressure of the stick itself than to the stick hits themselves, as stick hits just makes some dogs mad and fight harder in my experience with the Ring dogs and clubs I've been involved with.


There is quite some difference between the hits in the ring sports and KNPV. In the ringsports the dog gets hit after he makes his entry.
If I remember correctly the KNPV decoy rule book says: the dog has to be given one hit with the stick preferably on the back of the dog from the shoulders to the tail BEFORE the dogs makes his entry . I have seen many times at trials decoys come on the field with 8 sticks for 8 dogs and all of them were broken when he was done with the excercise.
The threat is what it is: a threat. You can easily condition a dog to take a threat as long as it is a threat.
If a dog cannot handle a threat well in KNPV he will very much have a problem with the stick hit.
As one of the first big importers from the USA once wrote: The courage test in KNPV is were the men are separated from the boys


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## Remco Fox (Apr 1, 2010)

Rik Wolterbeek said:


> There is quite some difference between the hits in the ring sports and KNPV. In the ringsports the dog gets hit after he makes his entry.
> If I remember correctly the KNPV decoy rule book says: the dog has to be given one hit with the stick preferably on the back of the dog from the shoulders to the tail BEFORE the dogs makes his entry . I have seen many times at trials decoys come on the field with 8 sticks for 8 dogs and all of them were broken when he was done with the excercise.
> The threat is what it is: a threat. You can easily condition a dog to take a threat as long as it is a threat.
> If a dog cannot handle a threat well in KNPV he will very much have a problem with the stick hit.
> As one of the first big importers from the USA once wrote: The courage test in KNPV is were the men are separated from the boys


heel mooi gezegd rik ik vind als pakwerker de stok ook zelf de mooiste oefening maar het blijft ook een moeielijke oefening alle honden te kunnen raken ook al heb ik 17 jaar het pak aan ik krijg nog altijd niet alle honden geraakt vaak de honden die op hjet laatste moment nog een tandje bijzetten zijn erg moieleijk te raken


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## Mladen Bezak (Jan 15, 2011)

Hi
I'm from Croatia and here I have KNPV club
Until I have made three KNPV certificates (PH 1, and Object) with Malinois and Dutch shepard.
I'm interested in everything regarding KNPV trainig and KNPV dogs.

best regards
Mladen


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