# training a recall



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

first, if there are threads that have already discussed how to train a recall, please post the links cause i missed them

i want to find out how others teach a recall but i don't want to discuss this in regards to puppy training since i am assuming everyone already knows this is much easier to train if you start it with a pup.

...*note : i know we have a bunch of new pup owners and soon to be owners here, but i think they can still learn a lot from reading about training adult dogs

any and all tools and training approaches are welcome, but stay away from discussing recalls regarding breaking crittering, training hunting dogs and retrievers, or any competition based recalling

i just want to know how you all have trained dogs to recall from start to final proofing regardless of whether they were family dogs, comnpetition dogs or professional working dogs. 
- the basic OB command that will bring an off lead dog back to your side when you call it

please be specific, i know what the big picture is 
would appreciate if you could include any answers to these specific Q's :
1. do you need any prerequisites from the dog or owner before you can start teaching it ? (in my experience i have found i usually do need some work ups)
2. can you teach it to a solo owner or do they need other people to assist them ? (been very hard for me to teach to a single owner with no other people to work with them)
3. how do you evaluate a baseline for starting ? (i evaluate) or do you just start ?
4. VERY very interested in the various ways you proof the training
5. am mostly interested in how you help train other people's dogs whether you were getting paid or not, but am also open to how you trained your own

6. to start off, since everyone knows a recall is important, why do you think so few dogs have a solid recall ?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

My training is always the same, starting with puppy, in the house every time I call his name and then command, when he gets to me I mark and food, always, if I don't have food I never call, I brainwash the pup that everytime he comes something good is going to happen, later on switch to a toy as a reward, later on use electric or prong on a long line as proof with distraction.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Rick, thank you so much for starting the thread and thank you Khoi. Rick, in this case, your appreciation for detail is VERY appreciated. (Your long posts always make more since than mine anyway, Im going to try to be more focused). Would LOVE to hear from all of you.

Gina


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The best recall training is done by not recalling the dog 
Bare with me I've not gone mad.

Get the engagement side of things sorted and recall is never an issue. Play engagement games, all the time, loads of them, don't let the dog off lead or out of a safe enclosed environment until you can be 100% that you can get engagement at a moments notice.
This can obviously be done solo and takes about 3-5 days usually.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks Matt.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> The best recall training is done by not recalling the dog
> Bare with me I've not gone mad.
> 
> Get the engagement side of things sorted and recall is never an issue. Play engagement games, all the time, loads of them, don't let the dog off lead or out of a safe enclosed environment until you can be 100% that you can get engagement at a moments notice.
> This can obviously be done solo and takes about 3-5 days usually.


Makes a lot of sense, that along with Khoi's advice together makes it fool proof with a dog with reasonable drive.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Recall isn't that difficult under no/low distraction. When the dog is put into drive it can be difficult sometimes depending on the dog. I've never really had recall issues after doing what Matt and Khoi have done but I've seen plenty of dogs lose their mind when the bitework starts. Keeping them clear headed is the biggest hurdle. Once you sort that out then the recall is a breeze.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah man, when they are in the zone for some dogs it's all bets are off.
Luckily in the UK for the PD title you have to train a call off from the criminal so it's something I get rock solid from the start as it's no good trying to train it later down the road. 
I have found the puppies I bred, recall was super easy as I have been calling them for food since they started wandering about so I just imprinted it there.

dunno if I have posted this before but here's a vid of a recall for sali from a crow which is one of her most favorite things to torrorize, it's how I trained a call off for her. Sorry if I have posted this before and it's boring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JbLOYekdps


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

This is a great thread. 
Whilst i always purchase a pup, i do foster adult dogs. who have no recall and usually were escape artists. I agree, a pup is so much easier to train. 

A few years ago, i took on a 1yr old french mastiff. Very independent dog. No recall. Not really human focused as all he'd known was to protect the car yard on a chain. And obviously, no bond between us. 

I focused on our relationship only. till i became someone he liked, and respected.

I never recall a dog that i know wont come. So understand you Matt: the dont call your dog - totally. You dont want to be counter training inadvertently, when i call, you dont have to come. 
I generally dont repeat the cue twice. If its not coming the first time. why train a second rep of this?

I use long lines dragged on floor, till the recall is 80%. Living with wildlife, provides lots of reps practice daily. 

Calling for feed time, and use TOT. Is my basic foundation for relationship and bond building. 

Once a tiny recall is captured, training begins, then I proof it, like all other behaviours: Duration/Distance/Distraction. Random reward ratio for evah!

I am resource guarded by my dogs. That i harness for speed. They zoom at me, to be first.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

I struggle with my rottie girl, who's a sucker for puppies! and does not have a reliable recall, when she see's a pup/small pup looking dog from distance.

She's very good at socialising with other dogs. So no threat. But folks are fearful of her charging approaching rottie. Ive never been able to proof this recall with her. Im keen to learn. 
She's a bitch, stubborn, and every other excuse for my poor training methods you care to name! 

Keen to learn how others teach adult dogs this.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

shelle fenton said:


> I struggle with my rottie girl, who's a sucker for puppies! and does not have a reliable recall, when she see's a pup/small pup looking dog from distance.
> 
> She's very good at socialising with other dogs. So no threat. But folks are fearful of her charging approaching rottie. Ive never been able to proof this recall with her. Im keen to learn.
> She's a bitch, stubborn, and every other excuse for my poor training methods you care to name!
> ...


Tried an ecollar? On a very low setting teach her how to turn the stimulation off by coming to you. She has to know the command of course and on leash. Use it in combination with her favourite reward, takes patience but it does work. Use as low a stim as possible.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks Robin, I've got a handful of you guys saying to try the ecollar. I am thinking, Yes, for the proofing, as low as possible. I think it is a tool I need to get serious about. Anyone got an idea of the average price or best type to buy or place to buy? What about for softer dogs, like my Shepinois? Good or bad for dogs without a lot of confidence? I think it was Bob that said he had had nervous Mals. Ever tried an ecollar on them? My girl is really stepping it up and like what I thought I read in a Bob post about his Mals, she is plenty confident when in drive, just not so much other times. Keep bringing the recall help and maybe more ecollar info. The borsenji I think is an ecollar candidate.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Gina Mezin said:


> Thanks Robin, I've got a handful of you guys saying to try the ecollar. I am thinking, Yes, for the proofing, as low as possible. I think it is a tool I need to get serious about. Anyone got an idea of the average price or best type to buy or place to buy? What about for softer dogs, like my Shepinois? Good or bad for dogs without a lot of confidence? I think it was Bob that said he had had nervous Mals. Ever tried an ecollar on them? My girl is really stepping it up and like what I thought I read in a Bob post about his Mals, she is plenty confident when in drive, just not so much other times. Keep bringing the recall help and maybe more ecollar info. The borsenji I think is an ecollar candidate.


I like the Einstein collars, around 200-300 dollars.
Never had a nervous Malinois.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Oh. Sorry Rick! I kinda ran away with your post even though I know you ment to help me with it as well as others. Forgot it wasn't mine


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Robin, thanks for ecollar info!


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Robin, I think you're help was originally for Shelle's Rottie, but good


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

For my own dogs I don't think I have ever formally trained a recall or loose leash walking. They just do it. Like a lot of what Matt said it's pretty automatic through engagement and play but my puppies don't see a leash for a very long time. They start off leash and stay that way. I throw a lot of things getting them to chase. I let them follow me everywhere off leash. I do believe where many people fail is the relationship in the home. I am kind of a fanatic right from the store. I have a lot of rules and boundaries in the home. When the bond and relationship is strong the dogs don't care about anything or anyone else. Now for my clients the recall is the first thing I teach. I use a 15 foot line, I use food and markers. I teach the owner how to engage the dog, how to build the relationship, they practice in front of me and they have to have it down before they leave me. Then for the next week they only work on the recall. When we meet the following week we add a couple of more things but still continue working the recall. After the second or third lesson depending on the team we start adding some distance and some distractions. If you can nail a good recall everything else is simple and fast.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick said

6. to start off, since everyone knows a recall is important, why do you think so few dogs have a solid recall ?

Simply a lack of understand and or inconsistency. 

I posted my puppy recall method in another post before I saw this one.

I've only owned a couple of dogs that I got as young adults and this is what I did with both.

Both of these dogs, an Australian Shepherd and a St. Bernard were runners when I got them.

I addressed this first.

I didn't see any point in teaching a recall if running off seemed to be kin to a HUGE distraction.

On a 50-60 ft long line I just let the dog take off and would just give a firm "Wait" right before the dog hit the end of the line.

It took a day or so for the Bernard to start responding but the Aussy had it in one or two tries. 

From there (now on a 10ft line) I started rewarding every time the dog would come to me with no command.

When the dog starts seeing me as a provider of food I put a command to it when ever they started my way. 

Distance was slowly added and I still reinforced the "wait" command when needed.

When did I start working off the line?

First in my yard when the "come" was fast and consistent.

From there I went to a fenced in school yard for more distance.

The Aussie was solid in a matter of days.

The Bernard took almost 3 weeks before I started trusting it. 

Was the Aussie smarter? 

I don't necessarily think so it just had a lot less baggage when I got it.

To follow my other post..

NEVER call the dog when it's distracted in its early stages.

NEVER call the dog to correct it. A dog associates a reward or correction with the last thing it did.

What was the last thing it did? It came to you!](*,)

Never call the dog if it's off lead and you don't think it will come. IT SHOULDN'T BE OFF LEAD AT THIS POINT.

I've never used an e-collar. Not that they can't be a great tool but I never found the need for one.

I also believe they can be one of the most misunderstood training tools if not downright abusive in untrained hands.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

I can see a low stim on a e-collar, that the dog learns to turn off by coming, would be great to proof it.
But i dont own one. And they are rather expensive, and something ive not required so far.

On my early IPO journey, i am seeing e collar club members in a tiz, as its trials next month, and none of them can wear anything but a flat collar for trial. The dogs are getting up to all sorts of milarky on training nights, without them. This is kinda putting me off the e collar. The e collar dogs seem to know when the collar is on/off. And adjust latency and speed accordingly?

The 'they just sort of do it' is best described in the How to Embrace Incompetence article. I believe that this is unconscious competence. That the handler IS doing stuff to make the dog follow, its leading. Like some folks have a presence, that dogs 'get'. And follow the leadership. 
I am a bit airy fairy, and believe you have to know your dog will come, not think your dog will come. Im sure this adds to presence. 

I dont use leashes here. when required, I use drag lines. So off leash, is really from day 1. This helps. 
Have always worked dogs off leash. Then you dont have to retrain on leash. The drag line is simply there to prevent stay away. The relationship takes care of the stay by me part to a large extent.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Using the ecollar on that one dog was great to teach to fly-by check-ins. He would do it there after even if not wearing the collar but the dog quickly learned that the recall to leash-up was optional if he was not wearing it. I don't want to have to throw an ecollar on a dog to ensure OB neither do I want them have a negative association to wearing it. All the other dogs I trained using Bob's suggestions he listed on the other thread.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob, I have used that method but if I did it with a St Bernard I would be flying through the air like a kid running with a helium balloon


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Lots more to think on.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I've never used an e-collar. Not that they can't be a great tool but I never found the need for one.
> 
> I also believe they can be one of the most misunderstood training tools if not downright abusive in untrained hands.


Many electronic collars come with page features. Not everyone who uses an e collar only uses function the original ones were designed with. In addition to the page feature, the one I have also has a bright flashing light that can be activated. The color of the light is dependent upon the dog its on. 

I think an unqualified person handling a dog can be one of the greatest risks to a dog in dog training. There's a lot of monkey see, monkey do that goes along with a sense of entitlement or even sheer indifference when it comes to handling a dog however one sees fit.


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## Danielle Hunt (Jan 7, 2016)

shelle fenton said:


> On my early IPO journey, i am seeing e collar club members in a tiz, as its trials next month, and none of them can wear anything but a flat collar for trial. The dogs are getting up to all sorts of milarky on training nights, without them. This is kinda putting me off the e collar. The e collar dogs seem to know when the collar is on/off. And adjust latency and speed accordingly?


Nifty trick that I learned for this problem: put the ecollar on, don't stim or anything, simply put it on. Then some time later, when you're ready to work, put on the flat collar and give a quick stim. Now the dog associates the flat collar with the stim. I don't use an ecollar so I've never had to try this, but I have had it tucked in my mind for the future just in case.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Danielle Hunt said:


> Nifty trick that I learned for this problem: put the ecollar on, don't stim or anything, simply put it on. Then some time later, when you're ready to work, put on the flat collar and give a quick stim. Now the dog associates the flat collar with the stim. I don't use an ecollar so I've never had to try this, but I have had it tucked in my mind for the future just in case.


The dog know the difference between a plain flat collar and a flat collar with this little weighty box and two points pressed against their neck. The two are not comparable and I doubt the dog is making the association you think the dog is making. If you ever do try it, let me know how it works out for you because I would sure like to know when I'm wrong.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> The dog know the difference between a plain flat collar and a flat collar with this little weighty box and two points pressed against their neck.


Who knows. I have a bark collar that I have used on the mastiff. Power on or off the result is the same. Curious about other options, I tried placing a flat collar high and tight and got the same result as if she had the bark collar on. Her skin has a different quality to it than say a Mal or GSD so perhaps to her the pressure is all she feels or notices?

Could also be that I listened when I was given the advice that the level of correction in any scenario needs to make the correct degree of impression upon the dog, and that's what netted me the result I was looking to achieve. And no, I most certainly did not set it on the highest level and put it on her. I did that with myself on the e collar though, that was kind of fun especially after one of my friends uncontrollably did a Nazi salute with it on the highest level. It felt a little like a bee sting but that's it.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks ladies for the ecollar info. Soo much to learn.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

I have to apologize again. I kinda stole Rick's thread and got us pretty off topic. Learned some stuff, but killed the original meaning of the thread. Feel free to pay me back


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gina Mezin said:


> I have to apologize again. I kinda stole Rick's thread and got us pretty off topic. Learned some stuff, but killed the original meaning of the thread. Feel free to pay me back


Oh. He will. :-s

Or, you shall reap his rewards. Regardless, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Enjoy.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

an oldie but a goodie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GRSbr0EYYU


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah. That was weird. It would have been funnier if he called the dog Imgonna. :twisted:


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