# Why do Seminar Kings and Queens ..



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Spend good money to attend seminars or workshops and always seem to force the seminar facilitator to Kow tow to the students wishes? I see this over and over by the same type of people. They always seem to have some sort of excuse to justify their behaviour to justify sabotaging their own progress and the seminar facilitator's knowledge. 

I can understand working with someone and making sure your dog doesn't get unfairly corrected or put into a situation that a young dog may not be ready for. But going in and totally disregarding an experienced facilitators recommendations that would probably help your dog I find really silly. 

If they want to train the exact same way without any flexibility for themselves and the dog, why would they go to a seminar in the first place?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I go to seminars (when I can afford it ) to get a new idea or two and maybe not even for the dog I brought. I think auditing is usually a better idea with a seminar giver you're not familiar with. I believe changing your training every time you go to a new seminar is more of a problem then not following all of a particular seminar givers advise.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

I agree with Thomas.

Go to a seminar to see new ideas and insights, but don't let someone
you don't know mess with your dog which he can not possibly understand
in terms of background and individual traits. Letting some guy apply a one
size fits all training method to your dog as a demo is not rational.

If you like what you see and observe that the guy running the seminar
is really adapting to the individual dogs, and it looks right for your dog,
then it might be time to give it a try.

Always let someone else send their dogs out first to see how it goes.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Yeah seminars are a double edged sword. Trainers sometimes will not know a particular dog and what their training style is and attempt to demonstrate something and the dog does not understand which can cause a problem rather than help solve it. 

What Geoff is describing though is the old "dog trainers are control freaks" syndrome. 

One thing I will never do is give a trainer I am not familiar with my e collar. Nope not doing it unless its Bart Bellon.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Yeah I know people know their dogs, but some can be totally disillusional about it. Not saying that any seminar facilitator is god and any one should follow anybody's methods blindly if they don't know about the guy/gal. But you'd think that people would perform due diligence before they write out a check or their club hires someone. I prefer to audit myself as I've seen some nasty stuff. As well as seen some amazing stuff too auditing, that left me wishing I would've participated fully. 

I see a group mentality as well in seminars where say the facilitator is heavy handed with an e-collar or prong and then you see every one else following in unison in the crowd whether their dog needs it or not. It's just a funny dynamic that I see more than anything.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> What Geoff is describing though is the old "dog trainers are control freaks" syndrome.


Or the "perfect dog syndrome" and the handlers think they know better than the facilitator even though he/she has trained numerous dogs to multiple championships. These people don't see the path to fixing issues or an extreme example try to Ring with a Schh sleeve and then wonder why the dog chases arms. So continue to train with a sleeve and are always expecting something to be different.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

Everyone goes for different reasons, and i think its ok to not agree with what the seminar person is doing, you know your dog best, and if you are not comfortable why do it just for the sake of doing it ,, I am always open to suggestions but i also will agree or disagree with things that are being said, just cuz i am going to a seminar does not mean i am gonna agree with all thats asked of me and my dog , Just this sunday a fellow trainer of mine went to a dog training day , some Ob and some bite work ( if you wanted) just a group getting together , she wanted to see what it was about , she has a easy going dogue ( you met her Geoff ) Lexus. they told her to put a prong on the dog ( since they all had prongs on ) and yank the crap out of her for certain things, They then took the dog and yanked her around , owner said NO , she is NOT that dog, and i think thats ok , I know the dog, she doesnt need a prong to do anything, she is a easy going dog who tries her best to listen , 

so i guess it depends on alot of reasons why, just cuz you go to a seminar doesnt mean you will or HAVE to agree with what the main trainer is doing,, I have been to MANY seminars, and dont always agree with what s going on


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I started in competition training with AKC I went to every seminar on the planet looking for that magic method. What I found was that most were a rehash of something else BUT many had something that was at least worth trying. 
Ivan and Flinks are about the only thing I've seen in a few yrs but I doubt I'll ever stop looking. I'd love to do an Ellis seminar, rehash or not. Someday I may get it right. 
Listen to everyone and decide what works for you and the individual dog!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

The comment about the perfect dog syndrome brought to mind one of my pet peeves about seminars...the auditor that has the perfect dog at home. This is the person who says their dog will do this and that, yet doesn't have to prove it. Bugs the crap outta me to put myself, my dog, and our training on the line at a seminar, struggling to understand that person's terminology (like the first time Someone told me to "make dead prey.". I was like, WTF does that mean? Oh, cradle.) and then you've got someone there who doesnt have that stress sitting there on the sidelines talking about how this handler should do this or that. Or tells you, how come you did x? That's not the way to do it. 

Or the auditor that takes up a ton of time asking detailed questions about how to do something with their dog at home, and you're thinking they're describing a different dog from the one you know. 

I helped host at least one seminar where we did not allow spectators. We took the loss of income but frankly it was more focused training. 

Laura


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> The comment about the perfect dog syndrome brought to mind one of my pet peeves about seminars...the auditor that has the perfect dog at home. This is the person who says their dog will do this and that, yet doesn't have to prove it. Bugs the crap outta me to put myself, my dog, and our training on the line at a seminar, struggling to understand that person's terminology (like the first time Someone told me to "make dead prey.". I was like, WTF does that mean? Oh, cradle.) and then you've got someone there who doesnt have that stress sitting there on the sidelines talking about how this handler should do this or that. Or tells you, how come you did x? That's not the way to do it.
> 
> Or the auditor that takes up a ton of time asking detailed questions about how to do something with their dog at home, and you're thinking they're describing a different dog from the one you know.
> 
> ...


the auditor should only be allowed to ask questions about what he is seeing at the seminar, in regards to the actual dogs being worked or statements made...not ask questions that require the person to speculate about dogs that are not present..

I have been to a few seminars, and just listened to everything for the most part. and asked a few questions to clarify what the presenter was saying in regards to what he/she was talking about, in the context of what they were saying about whatever, or the specific dogs present...


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> the auditor should only be allowed to ask questions about what he is seeing at the seminar, in regards to the actual dogs being worked or statements made...not ask questions that require the person to speculate about dogs that are not present..
> 
> I have been to a few seminars, and just listened to everything for the most part. and asked a few questions to clarify what the presenter was saying in regards to what he/she was talking about, in the context of what they were saying about whatever, or the specific dogs present...


Yes, that's totally cool, but you get at least one person each day that wants to go on and on about their great dog at home and pose hypothetical questions, etc. Some seminar presenters are really good at blocking that and focusing it back to the dog or task at hand, but some suck at it or just want to be nice and helpful to the person, which isn't doing them any favors because those are usually the same people that are completely missing the mark as far as describing their dog. 

Laura


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Yes, that's totally cool, but you get at least one person each day that wants to go on and on about their great dog at home and pose hypothetical questions, etc. Some seminar presenters are really good at blocking that and focusing it back to the dog or task at hand, but some suck at it or just want to be nice and helpful to the person, which isn't doing them any favors because those are usually the same people that are completely missing the mark as far as describing their dog.
> 
> Laura



But...but...Ya gotta have at least one there or it's not a real seminar. ;-)


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> The comment about the perfect dog syndrome brought to mind one of my pet peeves about seminars...the auditor that has the perfect dog at home. This is the person who says their dog will do this and that, yet doesn't have to prove it. Bugs the crap outta me to put myself, my dog, and our training on the line at a seminar, struggling to understand that person's terminology (like the first time Someone told me to "make dead prey.". I was like, WTF does that mean? Oh, cradle.) and then you've got someone there who doesnt have that stress sitting there on the sidelines talking about how this handler should do this or that. Or tells you, how come you did x? That's not the way to do it.
> 
> Or the auditor that takes up a ton of time asking detailed questions about how to do something with their dog at home, and you're thinking they're describing a different dog from the one you know.
> 
> ...


Thanks Laura,

This is very true you just want the gong to go off and the hook come out to save everyone from the seminar hijack. Or even better the significant other who finagled their way in not paying because they didn't want to spend the day at the mall, who decides that they don't like what they are seeing and makes a scene. :-({|= That is one big suck on a sour lemon for sure! 

That as an interesting concept allowing no spectators. I can see where you'd have a lot more focused training. I find a bigger crowd stressful especially when you are trying to work your own dog trying to teach yourself or the dog something, with all these stone face people judging you more disconcerning than being on a real trial field.


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