# Attention Heeling in various sports



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

In the Dallas PSA trial discussion it was mentioned that the PSA II dog lost a lot of points for heeling. I thought that attention heeling was artificial and you wanted the dog to look at the decoy?
In Mondio Ring there seems to be a focus on contact heeling for most exercises. The only place where eye contact seemed to be "required" was Schutzhund/IPO. I was very surprised to hear that you'd get pointed for it in PSA.


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

The way I interpreted that comment was that with attentive heeling you have a much more solid heel that is less likely to fall apart when under stress. You have a bigger margin for error.

If the attentive heeling gets sloppy in trial you still have a heeling dog. If a sloppy heeler gets sloppy...what do you have left?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

It all depends on what is required and judged by the sport. In PSA an attention heel is a required and judged component. The video posted earlier shows an ideal picture of what heeling should look like in PSA. Here is another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qimi_mPBuAg

That being said, it is still possible to pass without an attention heel. My dog has a contact heel and absolutely no attention but still passed his PDC OB with ease. But to win and score high an attention heel is required.

In FR and MR there is no point loss for not having an attention heel. You are judged based on the position of the dogs shoulder in relationship to your knee as well as the distance the dog is from you. That is why you see the contact heeling in ringsport because if your dog is more than 10cm away from you, you lose points.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Here are some more videos of what is expected in PSA OB Levels I, II, and III

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVMr_gCPuCw&list=UU3B6h2t6GlD-nHjloB-gGWA&index=64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-xuVytOywU&list=UU3B6h2t6GlD-nHjloB-gGWA&index=61
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIB1HQyIxhU&list=UU3B6h2t6GlD-nHjloB-gGWA&index=57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDrTHotUqXk&list=UU3B6h2t6GlD-nHjloB-gGWA&index=55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw_WbMf4378&list=UU3B6h2t6GlD-nHjloB-gGWA&index=17


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Interesting videos, thanks for posting. It looks like an attention heel helps with the distractions. It also seems like a fast pace helps too? MY Dobermanns sire competed in PSA, so he's got it in his blood if there was a PSA club closer 
Then again it's not like training for PSA would hurt my Mondio Ring dogs scores? ;-)


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I think what it really boils down to is the creators are / were very much a sch people and they liked the look of the attention heel. The sport wants the look of a solid attention heel under all that distraction.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree the attention heel is more impressive looking and if the dog is focused on the handler. It's easier to ignore all the distractions?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

I think it all depends on the dog and how you train. If you can progressively build the distractions with the attention heel to the point where nothing going on matters and your dog focus on you that is great. The other side of this a dog that is not as handler oriented which is going to make that a lot harder. The distraction of the decoy is going to override the punishment in a lot of cases. What I have seen is that the higher you go in PSA and the longer you do it, the more your heeling falls apart, almost to the point complete lack of control. 

I view the level III OB almost like a MR DOH with more basic obedience thrown in. Having a dog that views it this way may decrease the amount of loading that typically occurs with a dog that loves to bite. That is why a contact heel would be extremely benificial in my opinion. Nicole, Ariel, Hill, and Michelle, the people in the videos, are all fantastic trainers that have obviously figured out how to keep that type of attention with all the heavy distraction. I would be interested if they thought they were able to do that because of the type of dog they have, their method of training, or a combo of both.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

The main difference I can see between the two is there is a bite in the MR DOH and there isn't any bite work at any obedience PSA level ? A good trainer and dog should be able to figure it out.
If I cue my dog "defense" before a MR DOH that means he can't bite unless there is a hand shake and then a "hit". If I cue him "obedience" before a PSA ob exercise that means no bite at all.
The control during the protection exercises could be a challenge? ;-)


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

In level III there can be a bite. The reason I think that training it like a DOH might work is because at no time are the decoys aloud to touch the handler. If in training you treated it just like a DOH and rewarded with a bite in a very specific manor, like the two handed attack, then the dog will always be anticipating that but it will never come. Might work, might not.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> In level III there can be a bite. The reason I think that training it like a DOH might work is because at no time are the decoys aloud to touch the handler. If in training you treated it just like a DOH and rewarded with a bite in a very specific manor, like the two handed attack, then the dog will always be anticipating that but it will never come. Might work, might not.


Jake. I think you hit on it here with anticipating the reward. That is the only consistent thing you have on the field when you trial, no matter what level, as the correction is gone.

There is a fine line, getting a dog to anticipate the reward bite, and not break to go get it. I think the ones who don't have the heeling fall apart, have a dog that is capable and training that supports it with good use of punishment and variable reward either on a toy or the decoy.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I'll chime in as best I can. I've never trained for a sport/venue that doesn't require an attention heel so I can't really comment on that. My MWDs didn't have an attention heel when they arrived but I spent quite a bit of time with a couple of them working on that. I found teaching the dog to focus on me in order to get what he/she wants made a lot of things easier ...especially with my first dog who was pretty handler aggressive and could care less about me.

As far as heeling/obedience in PSA is concerned, I can give my input as it worked for me and also reflect on what I saw in training with Hill and Nicole as we all trained together a lot. First, everyone seemed to think Blitzen was super handler oriented and we were a great, harmonious team. Honestly, most of the time, she could care less about me. I don't really exist to her if there's someone else around to give her attention or a decoy on the field. I went out and did my PDC after spending a year with her in Iraq not doing anything but detection and obedience and a little tracking. I think she had one bite overseas and a few bites after the trial on Saturday to see if she remembered where to target. In the lower levels (PDC and PSA 1), I found training obedience obsessively and always for a tug or ball (her food drive is crap) and keeping the bite work separate worked really well for us. I started integrating some obedience for bites when I started training for the 2s and started training call offs and redirects. I didn't give her a lot of bites and always tried to reward perfect behavior with bites ...if I could tell her brain wasn't with me, she wouldn't get a bite. When I felt she was the most "in tune" with me, that's when she would get a bite. I did notice she would start to anticipate it at particular times, so I had to be careful about that. 

Before a trial, I would back off and hardly ever let her get bites during obedience. Another thing to note, I didn't care for the practice I see at a lot of clubs of bringing the dog out first for obedience and then a second time for bite work. In PSA, obedience in really important in both phases and I noticed other teams with beautiful obedience would lose a lot of control during the bitework portion. I didn't want that so during training, I would sometimes do bitework first, sometimes integrate the two and sometimes only do obedience. I liked to make it very clear when we were doing bitework (use a harness or flat collar) and work a lot on specific components rather than full scenarios. I felt if she learned all the components with no control, when I was ready to add in control, she would already have a full understanding of what was expected. When the "bitework" equipment was off and she was in an obedience mindset, I could start throwing in some scenarios and still have nice control. My emphasis was always more on obedience than bitework, which is a common thing I noticed with Nicole, Hill and I and we always scored pretty high in obedience and had dogs that maintained nice control during bitework. Hill and I disagreed on obedience for bites for a long time, until his dog wouldn't engage during a PSA3 obedience routine that required a bite. I think it's important for a PSA3 dog to know that a bite is possible anytime so as to avoid confusion, but not anticipate bites all the time.

For sure, after training and trialing in the 3s for a while, my control started to suffer. Blitzen got bite happy and I could tell her mind wasn't with me. I'm not sure how to avoid that because there are a lot of things to train for in the 3s and you kind of get hung up on practicing every possible scenario you can conjure up. I tried to focus a lot on components, but a big part of being successful at that level is smart handling and you need to practice working through surprise scenarios. If I had more time to train (I earned my 2 and 3 in the same year in sort of a rush because I wanted to breed Blitzen), I would have broken things down more and separated obedience and protection a lot more and spent more time on just obedience around distractions.

To respond to Jake's question ...I think the type of dog makes a difference in how well you do in the upper levels. You need a dog that can handle the different pressure from weird distractions, but still be clear headed enough to think. The competitors I have seen do well in the upper levels don't have crazy wrecking balls with no brains or trainability. Their dogs tend to be confident dogs that bite well and are very trainable. I'm only commenting on the PSA3 dogs I have seen, but that's my take on it. There are certainly dogs that are much more powerful than mine that I would have a difficult time training for a PSA3. I think with a lot of time and patience, I might be able to limp them through it, but in my opinion, the type of dog certainly plays a big part. I think the approach is a big part also. Other trainers who use more compulsion or focus less on control seem to have more difficulty. I think the dog has to want to be obedient but also understand that they can only bite when they have earned it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ariel, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your approach as well as you did. I am taking a near identical approach with my dutch. It took me a while with time off and evaluating what my priorities were to come up with a very similar plan. 

It was interesting for me to read how that worked for you as it gives me some insight into what to expect particularly because it seems my reasons for wanting to do so are similar to your own. I plan to bring the dog out to work with the helper in spring to see where she is at and then I will make any necessary adjustments from there. I guess I'll also find out then if my plan backfires on me horribly.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> I think what it really boils down to is the creators are / were very much a sch people and they liked the look of the attention heel. The sport wants the look of a solid attention heel under all that distraction.


Exactly, Brett!


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

One of the creators had a strong SCH base and the other had a more "surprise scenario" base back ground and that's where you get a big part of the foundation of the sport. Without a doubt to be competitve in PSA you best have some solid attentive heeling.

Darryl


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the attention heel does keep the dog focused on earning a reward but it's also a point thing. 
As a sport grows there is a stronger need to separate the just so so and the nice dogs/training from the top of the heap teams.
The only dogs that showed attention heeling when I started in AKC ob were some of the Goldens and some of the (then misc class) Border Collies. Most weren't any less correct as to position but that "look" impressed the judges. Now your not going to be competitive if the focused heel isn't there. SAD!
I doubt anyone really thinks the dog isn't aware of where the decoy is on the field with the focused heeling.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ariel,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It really ties in well with the videos of you trialing. So when are you going on the PSA seminar tour? ;-)

Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) DS BH TT MR I 
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) TT IPO II STP I
Winterfell Arya (11/27/09)BH TT K9NW I
Gwrgenau vom Himmelhoch (8/19/09 BH TT





Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'll chime in as best I can. I've never trained for a sport/venue that doesn't require an attention heel so I can't really comment on that. My MWDs didn't have an attention heel when they arrived but I spent quite a bit of time with a couple of them working on that. I found teaching the dog to focus on me in order to get what he/she wants made a lot of things easier ...especially with my first dog who was pretty handler aggressive and could care less about me.
> 
> As far as heeling/obedience in PSA is concerned, I can give my input as it worked for me and also reflect on what I saw in training with Hill and Nicole as we all trained together a lot. First, everyone seemed to think Blitzen was super handler oriented and we were a great, harmonious team. Honestly, most of the time, she could care less about me. I don't really exist to her if there's someone else around to give her attention or a decoy on the field. I went out and did my PDC after spending a year with her in Iraq not doing anything but detection and obedience and a little tracking. I think she had one bite overseas and a few bites after the trial on Saturday to see if she remembered where to target. In the lower levels (PDC and PSA 1), I found training obedience obsessively and always for a tug or ball (her food drive is crap) and keeping the bite work separate worked really well for us. I started integrating some obedience for bites when I started training for the 2s and started training call offs and redirects. I didn't give her a lot of bites and always tried to reward perfect behavior with bites ...if I could tell her brain wasn't with me, she wouldn't get a bite. When I felt she was the most "in tune" with me, that's when she would get a bite. I did notice she would start to anticipate it at particular times, so I had to be careful about that.
> 
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Darryl Richey said:


> One of the creators had a strong SCH base and the other had a more "surprise scenario" base back ground and that's where you get a big part of the foundation of the sport. Without a doubt to be competitve in PSA you best have some solid attentive heeling.
> 
> Darryl


I like the focused heel look and I think it helps to keep the dog from locking in on the distractions. I was just surprised to see the emphasis (taking points away) in PSA since one of the founders and lots of the early competitors came from "real dog" training venues. If I had a dime for everyone that made fun of the focused heel look over the years? I'd be rich. Now it's not only accepted, its required ?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I think attention heel is great, it keeps the dog focus on the handler to listen to command better, but you need to know your dog weakness and strength and train accordingly, with my dog I let it slide a long time ago because I didn't want to stress out anymore than he can handle, I don't have his Dallas video but this one was in Lubbock, passed ob but failed protection. https://vimeo.com/channels/176851/48262915


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

Thomas in the early years of the surprise and non ring suit sports we always had attention heeling. Its just what we did. We noticed a lot of others didn't at the time, but we liked the control and look it brought. When I first started training i swore I would never teach it. Wouldn't do it any other way now. Lack of attention will not cause you to fail in PSA on a point basis, but it could effect overall control later in the process.

Darryl


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> I think attention heel is great, it keeps the dog focus on the handler to listen to command better, but you need to know your dog weakness and strength and train accordingly, with my dog I let it slide a long time ago because I didn't want to stress out anymore than he can handle, I don't have his Dallas video but this one was in Lubbock, passed ob but failed protection. https://vimeo.com/channels/176851/48262915


Good old Blacky, the dog is super old but still likes to work


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Ariel..If I rember correctly..It was the food refusal I into a passive bite for 10 secs. I didn't Think Rex would bite.But he did and then I lost control and he broke and bit a decoy while heeling and we recieved the golden goose egg in OB..A big Fat ZERO...LOL
Lets train


Attenion Heel just ups the game JMO.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

"The competitors I have seen do well in the upper levels don't have crazy wrecking balls"

... I have this dog.... LOL


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

hillel schwartzman said:


> Ariel..If I rember correctly..It was the food refusal I into a passive bite for 10 secs. I didn't Think Rex would bite.But he did and then I lost control and he broke and bit a decoy while heeling and we recieved the golden goose egg in OB..A big Fat ZERO...LOL
> Lets train
> 
> 
> Attenion Heel just ups the game JMO.


 
Ah, yes! I apologize. It wasn't that he didn't engage it was once he did bite he didn't want to stop biting. It was just nice to hear you admit that sometimes, I am right. \\/


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Ah, yes! I apologize. It wasn't that he didn't engage it was once he did bite he didn't want to stop biting. It was just nice to hear you admit that sometimes, I am right. \\/


The fun old days.....
http://youtu.be/qMtl049keLo

Yes you loved that..PS I only do Bites in OB after we get our 2...JMO


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Ariel,
> 
> Thanks for the detailed explanation. It really ties in well with the videos of you trialing. So when are you going on the PSA seminar tour? ;-)
> 
> ...


Probably not anytime soon, Thomas. We have a couple young dogs that I'm playing around with and may start a new one in PSA, but I am setting my goals on IPO now. Certainly, though, if anyone will be in the area and wants any training or guidance for PSA, I'm more than happy to assist.

One thing I forgot to mention in my other post, I hardly ever train with my dog off leash. I see a lot of competitors training with their dogs off leash because the dogs have to do off leash obedience and they think they must practice that. I rarely took the leash off when training for the lower levels and when I did, it was only when I was getting the performance I expected while she was on leash. Even for the upper levels, I learned having a leash prevented her from doing things wrong and then having to correct a mistake I allowed to happen. I remember training once with Jerry Bradshaw and Rick Furrow thinking the control I had with my e-collar was sufficient. We were setting up for redirects, I believe and she broke for the wrong decoy and for whatever reason the collar failed me. Jerry promptly reminded me why it's always important to have a leash ...lesson learned.

Anyway, just something I thought I would add because I see handlers allowing their dogs to make a lot of mistakes because they want to rush and practice doing things off leash.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

hillel schwartzman said:


> The fun old days.....
> http://youtu.be/qMtl049keLo
> 
> Yes you loved that..PS I only do Bites in OB after we get our 2...JMO


 
HAHA ...love it! I forgot you called me a bitch at the end of that video! I miss ya Hill, we need to set up a training day when the weather improves ...unless you're up for some indoor training. We've got access to some local schools and the fairgrounds.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Darryl Richey said:


> Thomas in the early years of the surprise and non ring suit sports we always had attention heeling. Its just what we did. We noticed a lot of others didn't at the time, but we liked the control and look it brought. When I first started training i swore I would never teach it. Wouldn't do it any other way now. Lack of attention will not cause you to fail in PSA on a point basis, but it could effect overall control later in the process.
> 
> Darryl


Well said!


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Anyway, just something I thought I would add because I see handlers allowing their dogs to make a lot of mistakes because they want to rush and practice doing things off leash.


The whole idea of "practicing off leash" has always escaped me as well.. short of occasionally dropping my leash or tab throughout a training exercise, heeling pattern, etc. I can't understand it. I have personally met many people who will come out to training with different equipment on their dog each time they train or just take their leash off altogether to "practice for trial" and not once have I ever seen it result in anything but a dog that is set up for and allowed to make mistakes it then cannot be corrected for. :neutral:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree on the dropping the leash too quick, but you have to lose it before the trial. I like 1 ft tabs made of the ~ 1 inch webbing I get at REI. I have the local shoe repair place sew on a clip and then double over the end so it catches your fingers without the dog getting their paw caught in a loop. I also have an e-collar on for most of the training. I leave the tab on until the day of the trial and drop the e-collar a week or two before for IPO
For Mondio I like a couple of pretrial sessions sans all equipment since that's the way you have to trial.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i think a lot of this has to do with how people view a lead, whether it's a short tab or a drag
- as a tool for training
- as a safety measure to limit movement and get control back WHEN needed; but also takes practice not to be clumsy handling a long lead, like laying it out forward so it will be where you can get to it if needed rather than always dragging behind

overuse is bad no matter what you are training for; gotta find the sweet spot between both and depends on how well you've brought the dog along in its training/proofing
- i see lots of overuse ... just because it's in the hand, so they "can" and "do" use it too much

- i obviously it's a test of control which is why off lead is required when it's for real in a trial

as far as dogs running off ... sounds like a proofing problem rather than a lead problem ... back up and fix that first and (maybe) don't trial til you're ready, rather than trial to SEE if you're ready  .....different strokes 

but i do think you can and should "practice off lead" ... just have it on but don't use it .... that would seem a logical way to progress in any sport


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> HAHA ...love it! I forgot you called me a bitch at the end of that video! I miss ya Hill, we need to set up a training day when the weather improves ...unless you're up for some indoor training. We've got access to some local schools and the fairgrounds.


Would love to train. Never can get a hold of u. Lol
As far as attention heel in Psa that is a personal preference and I prefer this method. BUT I have seen plenty of mondio and begium ring dogs with contact heeling that could really kick butt. As far as always using a
leash I have to say that is a personal preference . I do teach with a leash and e-collar but later the leash is gone. I have seen the leash become a deadly tool cuz handler doesnt realize they are using it too tightly Jmo. The best training tool we have are our hands cuz those are the tools we are left with on trial day. Btw I let my dogs always make mistakes that is how they learn and correct the unwanted behavior. Jmo. Let's train.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I also have an e-collar on for most of the training. I leave the tab on until the day of the trial and drop the e-collar a week or two before for IPO
> For Mondio I like a couple of pretrial sessions sans all equipment since that's the way you have to trial.


Must just be a personal preference.

In PSA you trial with no collar and no leash in the Level 2's and 3's as well, but I know a few high scoring competitors who don't take their training collars off to practice right before a trial. 

My dog has on a pinch collar and e-collar every single training session, whether I end up using one or both or neither depends on what we're doing and what the goal of the session is. The only time she is ever without them is the morning of a trial.


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