# Follow the newbie ...



## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

... Yea, one of those thought processes. I am here because I have a 10 y.o. dog and the time has come to start considering what the next will be when the time comes, which brought me to this forum as I research my options to make a decision. My dog is a working line Pyr/Border Collie. Which brings us to the stupid newbie 'can I reinvent the wheel' question.

Let me set up the question with a couple more words though. I know a decade ago, someone in Colorado was breeding these two on purpose. Don't know who. I also know the little ranch I got my meathead from did it on purpose as well. This person was involved with the other with a couple matings. Backyard breeders? Probably, but at least the folks that I got my dog from were not bad people or dog owners, so, grab and go.

Point being, I am seeing more of these mixes these days. Having lived with one, if it is working line dog, look the &[email protected]* out if you get the wrong combo of drives, you are in for a handful. It is almost as though I feel I need to go search out one of these dogs a that keep getting born, more and more it seems, that I think has the best chance of getting euthanized if it went home with 85% of all dog owners.

Which leads me to the actual question. Although matched by other breeds, I don't think the prey drive of BC surpassed. It is obviously and neccisarily very, very intense. Further, it ain't a real Pyr, or any type of mastiff, in my book without a very strong defensive and fight drive in addition to being socially aggressive.

High prey drive + high defense drive + high fight drive + 70 - 100 lb. mastiff frame = Good protection or sport dog?

Again, not trying to reinvent the wheel, just wondering if I am right about an increasing of litters some of those pups will have that combo and I have one that was close.

Am I stupid newbie, or do the experts here think there is a realistic chance of finding one dog, that would actually be considered a good and competitive sport dog after looking through a dozen or two litters of different lines?


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

The problem with mixed breeds is the sheer variety of different drives / traits / ability etc. you will end up with a lot of pups that do not fit the bill. Look at the labradoodle experiment, it was abandoned by the organisation that first set it up because they could not guarantee suitable temperment, coat or working ability.

If you can find a suitable pup, go for it but the chances of finding the pup you want are fairly slim. Most working people who cross breed do so as an experiment or to try and get desireable traits - if it works they may repeat it, if it doesn't they won't. I have no problem with crossbreeding for this reason but most non-working people crossbreed for money or because they can - which causes it's own problems.

Why do you feel that a pyr/collie would be better for sport / your lifestyle than an established breed? Have you considered what you'd end if with if the pup inherited the 'bad traits' of both breeds? I see a lot of collies with nervous aggression issues (no offense to collie people) I really dread to think of a dog with that temperment that is the size of a pyr.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

where I live almost everyone has a border collie, a pyrenese, one of each, or a cross of the two.
With all of the ones that I have seen, in my opinion none of them would be suitable for the type of work you are describing. Border collies do have prey drive, and pyrenese are defensive, those two statements are true. There are many breeds with high prey drive, take a whippet for example, but that does not mean they are great for the type of work we do here.
It would take thousands of hours of searching, thousands of dollars, and thousands of holes dug in the back yard to bury all the ones that did not make the cut in order to find one that would sort of kind of half assed go through the motions of what we really want to see.
Buy something that is a little less of a crap shoot and save yourself all of the trouble.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> If you can find a suitable pup, go for it but the chances of finding the pup you want are fairly slim.


I like that mind set. I certainly am not approaching this with the mind set of 'I want to do protection sports and am now looking for a pyr/bc to do it with'. Rather, it is more 'if I end up looking for another _handful_ pyr/bc that displays strong traits of the parents, what am I going to use a release for this working dog?'.



> Most working people who cross breed do so as an experiment or to try and get desireable traits - if it works they may repeat it, if it doesn't they won't. I have no problem with crossbreeding for this reason but most non-working people crossbreed for money or because they can - which causes it's own problems.


Yea, I didn't investigate the 'breeder' who was doing this intentionally at the time and what her actual motivations were, but for anyone curious in Colorado, she was in the Alamosa area. Sounds like a good idea, maybe, but if one is not committed for a couple of decades and hundreds of dog matings, good luck stabilizing breedable traits. Your only luck is with 'one - off' dogs, labradoodle case in point

I don't know how I feel about it, since I doubt many, if any have the true committment, resources, knowledge, desire and starting stock to stabilize a breed. But it does seem to be happening more, the 'ol pyr/bc mix. One of the biggest problems I see for anyone doing this intentionally and ending up with a super ranch dog is the starting stock of the pyr in the US as I think LGD's to be about one of the least suitable dogs to transfer from work to pet and I think the percentage of pyrs in the US capable of true LGD work to be small.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Judging from your website Mike, you defintiely seem to qualify as an expert. Thanks, for indulging the whims of this knucklehead newbie.



> With all of the ones that I have seen, in my opinion none of them would be suitable for the type of work you are describing.


I would agree, not only in ones I have seen in person, but in theory as well. I think the most likely result from a litter is a pet. A dog that has had the drives of his parents subdued. However, I have seen two, one being my own _that are not suitable as pets_. I have a dog that was considered for euthanasia more than once. Considered in the sense, 'if I can't predict and control certain behaviors (like having no problems launching open mouthed at a humans face with bad intent). He was an absolute eye opener for me. I have never done protection sports with the types of dogs talked about here, but I know the menaung of the phrase 'Handler mistake'. It is great looking at your 18 m.o. dog standing on your bed, bearing his teeth and growling and saying to yourself, 'Didn't we go through this last week, what the hell did I do wrong since then?' He has taught me alot. I walked into him as a naive lifetime pet dog owner and walked away with experience dealing, training and living with a working dog, and a pain in the ass one that would make you pay for mistakes. The other dog was a 2 y.o. intact male owned by the people that produced the litter my dog came from. He was big, high strung and very intimidating. I don't think he was a pet either.



> It would take thousands of hours of searching, thousands of dollars, and thousands of holes dug in the back yard to bury all the ones that did not make the cut in order to find one that would sort of kind of half assed go through the motions of what we really want to see.


I guess I thought finding a half-assed dog to go through the motions wouldn't be such a crap shoot.



> Border collies do have prey drive, and pyrenese are defensive, those two statements are true. There are many breeds with high prey drive, take a whippet for example, but that does not mean they are great for the type of work we do here.


Could you educate me in a sentence or two about what it takes in addition to those two drives and a willingness to fight being present in high representation?



> Buy something that is a little less of a crap shoot and save yourself all of the trouble.


I understand that and if my true desire lays in the actual work of the sport, no doubt I will seek a breed that is an actual _breed_, comes from responsible breeding and is a breed I can access help with from those more experienced. Thanks for indulging my thoughts and questions. Again, it is time to think about the next dog, and experiences with my current in addition to other experience I have gained in the last several years compels me to take a step up in the dog world in the world of dogs that the average dog owner has no business owing. Not meaning aggresive or dangerous, just a more serious dog that takes a more comitted and serious handler.

Which leads me to one last question if I still have your attention. One of the things I want to do in continuing to research a decision is to attend some clubs, hang around some hanlders and dogs. I live about an hour outside of the Denver Metro. Best way, I guess, is to contact every club I can find and trial and error for one that I like / is good.

The lazy and potentially quicker way is to ask someone like you on da net if you know of any clubs or members on this board who live in Colorado that could direct me to a club to contact to exchange some labor for education?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

You been watching Walt Disney or something ??


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> You been watching Walt Disney or something ??


No. You ever have a Pyr/BC mix who is socially aggressive, has very strong prey drive, very strong defense drive? You ever have a Pyr/BC mix that though it was cool to not only stalk oncoming joggers, bikers, etc, but to also launch at them, open mouthed, all fours off the ground and then want to continue to pursue after they passed? You ever have Pyr/BC that had a very strong bite association with that prey drive? You every have a Pyr/BC that you have watched stalk, chase, catch, kill, and eat wild animals? You every have a Pyr/BC that you have watched chase a predatory bird off of a kill and finish eating the kill? Etc. You get the ideas of the types of behaviors and strong drives in this dog I am talking about. This is not a pet in a walt disney movie I am talking about, nor a great little agility or flyball BC mix that really, really loves you.

Doesn't mean he can do any type of work, but I am not talking about Walt Disney dogs or pets. I am talking about a dog who's parents were working dogs with very strong drives, just like the parents of the dogs owned by the people on this site.

Don't worry maggie, I have real thick skin and my dad instilled in me the notion that it is better to be thought of as a smartass than a dumbass, but hey, he raised me to be honest as well, so I think the other two posters were a bit more informative and helpful.

How 'bout you help a newbie out now that I have provided you with some of the behaviors of the type of pyr/bc I am talking about and tell me why it so far off the mark to consider a dog capable of exhibiting behaviors up to the point of:

_stalk, chase, catch, kill, and eat wild animals ... chase a predatory bird off of a kill and finish eating the kill_

to be able to be trained to do sport work to the point of being worthwhile and enjoyable?

That is a pretty complete set of dog behaviors the vast majority of domesticated dogs cannot put together. I am not a protection dog expert, but I know that that serious of behaviors is not common amongst domesticated dogs. It speaks volumes about the *Walt Disney* dog I own to somebody with a good foundation of dog knowledge. Are you one of those people? And it is indicative of very strong drives, fear not being one of them. Help me out maggie, since I apparently asked a stupid question, educate me as to what other elements are neccesary in a dog to be considered to do sport worked half assed?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_How 'bout you help a newbie out now that I have provided you with some of the behaviors of the type of pyr/bc I am talking about and tell me why it so far off the mark to consider a dog capable of exhibiting behaviors up to the point of:_

_stalk, chase, catch, kill, and eat wild animals ... chase a predatory bird off of a kill and finish eating the kill_

_to be able to be trained to do sport work to the point of being worthwhile and enjoyable?_

Hi,

First of all, I'm an expert on nothing, but.... I know when I smell a strange one.... does that mean anything to you ? In addition, I'm not the most articulate of people to demand an exacting answer from should it require a very specific breakdown in the manner I can kind of tell you may like.

You conjured up something from Walt Disney for me.... have you ever seen 'Tom and Jerry' ?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

What are you talking about Maggie?







Now that was funny too. Go ahead and laugh.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Christopher Fox said:


> No. You ever have a Pyr/BC mix who is socially aggressive, has very strong prey drive, very strong defense drive? You ever have a Pyr/BC mix that though it was cool to not only stalk oncoming joggers, bikers, etc, but to also launch at them, open mouthed, all fours off the ground and then want to continue to pursue after they passed? You ever have Pyr/BC that had a very strong bite association with that prey drive? You every have a Pyr/BC that you have watched stalk, chase, catch, kill, and eat wild animals? You every have a Pyr/BC that you have watched chase a predatory bird off of a kill and finish eating the kill? Etc...


Interesting. I am curious what makes you believe your dog was socially aggressive with very strong prey drive and very strong defense drive? What other examples of strong working dogs are you comparing this BC/Pyr to in order to determine that it was such a strong defensive aggressive dog?

I have seen a LOT of pet dogs chase and go after joggers, bikers, cars, cats, wild animals etc. I have two dogs that have made quite a few kills in my backyard (which I am attempting to stop) and chased a golden eagle just messing around up in the woods during hunting season. Chasing a predatory bird from a kill is not impressive, I have seen housecats do that. 

I have worked with dogs that wanted to seriously harm me, some of them succeeded in nailing me and had bitten other people and killed other animals including LIVESTOCK. These dogs were not special or strong in any particular way, they were not working dogs or sport dogs. They were pets that had drive and no rules. 

Not meaning to burst your bubble but a BC/Pyr cross is like a lot of the other working ranch and farm dogs I have seen. Around here there are ACDs, COs, Anatolians, Maremmas, a few Kuvasz all bred and mixed for working on ranches as livestock guardians or general working ranch/farm dogs that will herd/heel etc. They can be strong dogs but they are not advertised as pets or recommended for sport, they are ranch dogs, they are bred to have drives and temperaments suited to that type of work.

Decide if you are more interested in sport or the breed. It sounds to me like you just want to find the next badass BC/Pyr and decide what to do about it later. If you do seek out the dog you think you want in a BC/Pyr cross don't expect to use sportwork as an outlet for its drive and energy, hope, but don't expect. Consider the possibility that you have this "badass" aggressive defensive prey monster dog that doesn't take to sport and just makes your life hell.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A Pyr/BC cross sounds like a total cluster ****. Two totally different breeds with totally different breed characteristics/drives. Can that cross turn out a good dog? Possibly, but it would be a total anomally and not likely to be reproduced easily. JMHO of course!


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Cristopher,
In Holland a lot of years ago ,before the internet we were always on the lookout for dogs suitable to do KNPV work.On saturday afternoons we would grab the local newspaper and set off to find a good dog.A lot of times the owners would say over the phone the dog was overly agressive and would chase and bite anyone .Most of these dogs were agressive from the word go but when challenged nearly all would try to flee the scene.
I am just saying there is a very big difference between chasing someone who is scared of you and attacking someone who is challeging you.Have you ever tried to let your dog bite?I am not saying your dog is not for real but just wondering if he is.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> Cristopher,
> In Holland a lot of years ago ,before the internet we were always on the lookout for dogs suitable to do KNPV work.On saturday afternoons we would grab the local newspaper and set off to find a good dog.A lot of times the owners would say over the phone the dog was overly agressive and would chase and bite anyone .Most of these dogs were agressive from the word go but when challenged nearly all would try to flee the scene.
> I am just saying there is a very big difference between chasing someone who is scared of you and attacking someone who is challeging you.Have you ever tried to let your dog bite?I am not saying your dog is not for real but just wondering if he is.


Very true. 

Everyone thinks their dog is fantastic, reality check required.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

christopher,
First i like your name. i have it too. congrats on one of the best names. 

second, i am a working dog newbie too. I dont yet have my working dog. I have handled some of a close friends GSDs in some schutzhund work several times, i have taken exactly 11 bites on a sleeve all were standing in the blind while attmepting to "escape" on the Bark and hold. I have been meeting a ton of dogs, interviewing breeders, and reading/watching videos of all working sport information i can find. my knoweldge of the working dog sports is about 90% theoretical at this point, but in my research and limited first hand experience i have learned alot. 

I think you should go head to some working dog clubs and meets some dogs. I have a border collie/lab mix who is a nutso, but is certainly not nearly as driven in prey, defense, or hunt as the working bred pointy eared dogs i have met in the last 6 months of going to meet working dogs. 

I thought he had high prey drive, until i saw 45 pound female malinois in uber prey mode run about 100 yards to bite the sleeve after jumping like a jackrabbit on the entry.

I thought he had good hunt/retrieve drive until i saw some KNPV dogs doing article searches and waterwork, or the random object retireves in mondioring. 

I thought he had ok defense drive and appropriate territorial protectiveness, then i saw some french ring dogs doing thier object guards. 

i dont think anyone heres is trying to say that youre dog sucks, in fact i thinka bc/pyr mix could be a super fun pet, but i think you should go see alot of working dogs while working.

you should talk to owners of these dogs about what its like living with them when not working them, talk to people active in the various sports about the sports and what a good dog needs to excell in them, talk to club trainers and members about what it takes to train and title a dog in a sport you're interested in. i have been welcomed at all the clubs i have visited and everyone humored my countless newbie questions. I was even invited back to a spring trial at one club, on the condtion that i bring some beers for everyone to drink after the days trialing is done  There are two clubs in particular i haven;t yet visited, but have contacted and they both have told i have an open invitation to go watch weekend training, so long as i let them know i'm comming. 

you could try and get anoth BC/PYr and work it in a sport venue, but you can also open your mind to the possiiblities that there are better dogs for sport. Most of the working dog people i have met are cool and have been very helpful. 

this forum is a good example. I have gotten over 20 unsolicitied PMs from members here offering advice and help on everything from what to look for in a breeder to whole i need to work with to get decoy certified. sometimes you need thick skin, but stick around and learn alot. it will be worth it.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> ...
> Not meaning to burst your bubble but a BC/Pyr cross is like a lot of the other working ranch and farm dogs I have seen. Around here there are ACDs, COs, Anatolians, Maremmas, a few Kuvasz all bred and mixed for working on ranches as livestock guardians or general working ranch/farm dogs that will herd/heel etc. They can be strong dogs but they are not advertised as pets or recommended for sport, they are ranch dogs, they are bred to have drives and temperaments suited to that type of work.
> 
> Decide if you are more interested in sport or the breed. It sounds to me like you just want to find the next badass BC/Pyr and decide what to do about it later. If you do seek out the dog you think you want in a BC/Pyr cross don't expect to use sportwork as an outlet for its drive and energy, hope, but don't expect. Consider the possibility that you have this "badass" aggressive defensive prey monster dog that doesn't take to sport and just makes your life hell.


 Jennifer I like the ranch point you made. Cattle dogs can have a little different drive than those used for sheep. "...they are bred to have drives and temperaments suited to that type of work."
Oh so true!!!=D>


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Interesting. I am curious what makes you believe your dog was socially aggressive with very strong prey drive and very strong defense drive? What other examples of strong working dogs are you comparing this BC/Pyr to in order to determine that it was such a strong defensive aggressive dog?


As far as socially aggresive, I would call a willingness to put teeth on a human to enforce maintain dominace socially aggressive, among other things. Plenty of other behaviors as well starting with assuming, enforcing and keeping dominace at about 3 months over an 8 y.o. adult male to being the dominant one, in control of space with a ldy that lived with us

As far as the prey drive, he has displayed all the predatory motor behaviors in sequence. From my understanding, predatory behavior in canines is the following sequence:

Orient -> Eye -> Stalk -> Chase -> Grab-Bite -> Kill-Bite -> Dissect -> Consume

My dog has displayed every one of these motor patterns in sequence. He is wired with the entire package of predatory motor behaviors. In that sense, I consider him to have a strong prey drive as there is nothing lacking from it, nor can you find a dog with any extra behavioral components. In addition to that, through your typical BC behavioral response to stimuli, it was pretty clear to me at a immediately that a big part of his interactions with the world were done in prey drive in the sense that that was his idea of social activity. It didn't matter if he was interacting with a human, another dog, a tennis ball he would carry to the top of the stairs and drop, eye and chase or plants that he learned at a young age to bump, watch all the leaves move and then pounce.

Lot's of specific examples of actual behavior, but the point of ball and plant was as soon as he learned what behaviors he could do (picking up a ball taking it to the top of the stairs, and dropping it to trigger his prey response of chasing it down the stairs, learning that if whacked a plant with his snout, the leaves would erupt in movement, launching a full out attack on an innocent plant), to indulge that drive, they were implemented.

Overall, his interactions, from the beginning, with the world seemed revolve around the behavioral motor patterns from the predatory sequences. It wasn't merely the presence of the eye-stalk behavior, or any of the other patterns in sequence or isolation, but also the _frequency_, like all the damn time.



> I have seen a LOT of pet dogs chase and go after joggers, bikers, cars, cats, wild animals etc. I have two dogs that have made quite a few kills in my backyard (which I am attempting to stop) and chased a golden eagle just messing around up in the woods during hunting season. Chasing a predatory bird from a kill is not impressive, I have seen housecats do that.


A lot of dogs contain some or all of those patterns. But to have the entire sequence wired into a dog is more rare than common. So, no, despite your claim, you have not seen a lot of dogs hard wired with the predatory behavior that mine is. A lot of dogs chase and kill animals. Not very many dogs are wired to go through the entire sequence I described. A GSD is no good as a herding dog if it is wired to follow up the eye, chase and grab-bite with a kill-bite, dissect and consume behaviors.

The bigger point of my bringing up those behavior patterns is to get input about which of those are needed in sports dogs - I have a dog that has them all to choose from, further imprint and bring out if I wanted to. I consider a pointer to be operating in a high state of prey drive while it is on point. They were bred to be missing a whole bunch of the other predatory behaviors, so a good pointer doesn't really know what the heck to do with prey but to stare at it and mark it. It is not wired to start chasing it after it eyes it but it is what I would describe as a high state of prey drive - they are merely [/i]stuck[/i] Well, they have chase and grab-bite too, but subdued. So, no, don't expect a pointer to do sport work.

I don't think cats to be a good comparison as many, many cats still retain the hard wiring for the entire repitoire of predatory behaviors, where as most dogs don't.

What you describe witnessing, although a manifestation of prey drive, it is not comparable to the whole sequence being present as it is in my dog. A lot of dogs can kill an animal, but than they don't know what to do with it. I have a husky mix up here as well that is a vermin hunter and the most aggressive in dealing with bears, but he can't dissect. He doesn't know how or even that he sould. If there was no food around and nothing but a bunch of rodents, 2 weeks later there would be a bunch of dead, bloated rodents killed by the dog and a starved dog because he has no hard wired dissection behavior. My Pyr/BC would be well fed, surrounded by rodent skeletons. He has every neccesary behavior pattern hard wired, from orient to consume.

A full pallette of behaviors to choose from when imprinting and training a pup.



> Not meaning to burst your bubble but a BC/Pyr cross is like a lot of the other working ranch and farm dogs I have seen. Around here there are ACDs, COs, Anatolians, Maremmas, a few Kuvasz all bred and mixed for working on ranches as livestock guardians or general working ranch/farm dogs that will herd/heel etc. They can be strong dogs but they are not advertised as pets or recommended for sport, they are ranch dogs, they are bred to have drives and temperaments suited to that type of work.


You are not bursting my bubble. And yes, I know all about ranch dogs that have strong drives - I have a dog that is the product of two ranch working dogs that enjoys his life at 10,000' in the Rocky Mountains. Would you like for me to tell you what it is like living with one? I think you missed my point though. I am not looking for a Pyr/BC to do sport work. I am potentially going to get another Pyr/BC as they are becoming more common and I know from experience that one can end up with a working dog that can't do the job of either of the parents but that you need to do something with to manage effectively. I am trying to find out the neccesary components of the predatory behaviors and how they manifest to at leat do half assed, fun sport work.

A potential outlet I am researching for my potential next dog.



> It sounds to me like you just want to find the next badass BC/Pyr and decide what to do about it later.


I think you are tremendously underestimating knowledge of dogs and my motivations. But thanks for labeling me as some punk with a tiny wee wee that thinks he needs an aggressive dog. I don't bring up the behaviors of my dog to brag or to show that he is tough or mean. Nor have I ever encouraged those behaviors, in fact, the opposite is true. I trying to educate myself as to what compoeant behaviors of prey drive are the most important in sport work.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> A Pyr/BC cross sounds like a total cluster ****. Two totally different breeds with totally different breed characteristics/drives. Can that cross turn out a good dog? Possibly, but it would be a total anomally and not likely to be reproduced easily. JMHO of course!


You're telling me. I am seeing more of them though and I know from experience that at least some them need something to do or else a bad dog will result, like any working dog, and most dog owners can't/shouldn't own them. I have successfully dealt with one, made many mistakes and learned a lot from both him and other venues I have been in in the last deacade and I can handle an even more cluster &^#( now, providing I can stasify the drives it has. The ones I have seen can't herd or work as a LGD, but they can have some strong drives and that working dog 'give me a job or I'll make your life hell' energy and desires.

That is why I was asking these questions. I am looking not for what is best to do sport work, but what are the more specific drive components of prey drive invovled.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Christopher, all I can say is wow. LOL.

You are the one who referred to yourself as a stupid newbie and came to the forum with this post bragging about your dominant aggressive dog 

Cats are a good comparrison because eagles and hawks EAT CATS but I haven't seen a predatory bird that would try to defend itself while still on the ground from a large dog.

I stand by my original post. I also did not describe any of the things I witnessed regarding prey drive and chase-catch-kill behavior. I only gave examples. 

Something you seem to be missing is that a dog that will kill just to kill tends to be more serious than a dog that kills specifically to eat. 

My questioning your description of the dog being socially aggressive/dominant/defensive is because quite a few people describe their dog to be that way but have only another dog that was even tempered to compare it to. Your use of the word "very" had my eyebrows raised as most people have not handled "very" socially aggressive, dominant, defensive dogs. 

Who did this dog bite in its displays of social dominance and why was it allowed?


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> You are the one who referred to yourself as a stupid newbie and came to the forum with this post bragging about your dominant aggressive dog


You are free to have that opinion. I am newbie to protection sport training and ownership of the typical breed invovled. I consider myself to know little about protection training specifically and am obviously new to this board. A newbie. Threw the stupid in, because, inevitably, some would think 'here comes someone trying to reinvent the wheel, doesn't understand drives, etc. - what stupid newbie'

I anticpated responses like yours in trying to educate myself further on the type of prey drive invovled in sport work and was trying to save people like you the trouble of posting. Apparently I failed, eh?

You can also have the opinion that I am _bragging_ about my dog. Oh well. That is a fine line to walk on a board that deals with dogs that are trained to bite people. Apparently you are the omniscient one that can see through your monitor and into my soul to make that distinction?

I hardly call describing behaviors exhibited by my dog to try to convey _the set of predatory behaviors he was *wired* with_ and how they relate to protection training bragging, but you are free to.

By your defintion, I have seen quite a few braggarts on this board then.

I am trying to learn, using my dog as an example and trying to learn that if I have another like him if sport work could be an outelt. Can you help me out with that? Or do you just want to come here making assumptions about my personal character and involve yourself in a pissing match with me?

I would prefer you help educate me, that is if you are capable of that.



> Cats are a good comparrison because eagles and hawks EAT CATS but I haven't seen a predatory bird that would try to defend itself while still on the ground from a large dog.


No, not when talking about hardwired *canine* predatory behavior. They are an entirely different species and not comparable when trying to describe how my dog was wired with a more _complete set of *CANINE predatory behaviors motor patterns*_ compared *to other dogs*.



> Something you seem to be missing is that a dog that will kill just to kill tends to be more serious than a dog that kills specifically to eat.


Not quite sure how you came to that conclusion as I spoke about no such things and gave no views on that. You must be reading my mind through your keyboard though? And doing none to good of a job at it I might add. Quite the talent you have, building straw men to attack. I have come to a conclusion from your words however and that is you don't seem to understand predaotary canine behaviors, what is involved in the full range of them and how the majority of domesticated dogs, even working dogs with the strongest of prey drives is not hardwired with the complete set of behaviors.

The point of that is not to brag, but to describe an 'off-breed' dog that had the full range of predatory behaviors, including grab-bite and kill-bite, to select from and further imprint on a puppy, in addition to the LGD drives. Get it?



> My questioning your description of the dog being socially aggressive/dominant/defensive is because quite a few people describe their dog to be that way but have only another dog that was even tempered to compare it to. Your use of the word "very" had my eyebrows raised as most people have not handled "very" socially aggressive, dominant, defensive dogs.


A legitimate question. That assessment was not made ten years ago when I got him though. It is a conclusion I have come to after dealing with him and then exposing myself to other herding dogs, some from working ranchers I know, and other venues that have led me into close contact for extended periods of time with probably close to 100 dogs. I can give plenty of antecdotal stories about my dog, but there I just that and I know this. So, at this point I don't think you to be open to changing the judgments you have formed about me personally nor my intentions with this thread, so what's the point of trying to convince you have any credibility or knowledge to make that assesment?



> Who did this dog bite in its displays of social dominance and why was it allowed?


I started to answer your question about the who's and what's and why's but then I held my finger on the delete key until those explanations were gone.

What are talking about '_allowed_'? There ya go with another assumption you have not enough information to make.

Are you ready to climb off of your moral high horse, 'cause I 'm getting rather bored with listening to you from up there.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Christopher you are quite defensive. You need thicker skin if you are going to be on this forum. If you think that my posts are offensive and stupid or whatever you want to call them, then don't respond to them. 

You are the one trying to be superior and toss insults. I have not implied anything in my posts other than inexperience on your part, which you already admitted to. I have not made any judgements about you, I have made assumptions about your motives and experiences based on your posts.

Hope you find what you are looking for, if anyone else decides to post.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> In Holland a lot of years ago ,before the internet we were always on the lookout for dogs suitable to do KNPV work.On saturday afternoons we would grab the local newspaper and set off to find a good dog.A lot of times the owners would say over the phone the dog was overly agressive and would chase and bite anyone .Most of these dogs were agressive from the word go but when challenged nearly all would try to flee the scene.




KNPV is serious work and most of the 400,000,000 dogs on this planet are not capable of it, although knew to this, I understand that for sure.




> I am just saying there is a very big difference between chasing someone who is scared of you and attacking someone who is challeging you.Have you ever tried to let your dog bite?I am not saying your dog is not for real but just wondering if he is.




No, no. That was the last thing I wanted this dog to do back then. Look, I didn't know what the hell I was doing when I got this dog over a decade ago, I was a lifetime pet dog owner that spent time as a child growing up with a working Pyr, but that was it. I feel in the 10 years since, I have learned a lot from him and actively educated myself above and beyond the vast majority of dog owners, capable of getting an average working line protection dog and not screwing it up to bad my first time out or getting anyone hurt.

But I might just get another _him_ and look for outlets to manage him.

The standards I would have for a dog to go through the motions of sport work are no doubt way, way below yours. Lat place at every club get together would be just fine by me. So, out mere curiosity, are there any particluar dogs you ran through this that were capable of my standards, were they available in any number?


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> You need thicker skin if you are going to be on this forum.


I think you are the one that needs thicker skin. You called me a braggart, labeled me as an irresponsible dog owner just looking for Billy Badass, etc. Oh well, not hurt or offended, and i don't think countering those remarks about my character to be unwarranted or thin skinned.

Further, you seem to be defensive as I have corrected your facts about A LOT of dogs being hardwired with the complete set of predatory behaviors I described to exist in my dog. Your response is to give some WOW LOL response in return. I honestly think you might be the one with thin skin acting defensively.

If you think my words will cost me acceptance of experienced people here, so be it. I am doing nothing more than trying to talk a little more in depth about prey drive. Apparently first I must run the gauntlet of arms of being told because I new to sport dog training I know nothing of hard drive dogs, etc? And you are the sergeant of arms directing the gauntlet of interrogation? Hmm.

But lets put that behind us Jennifer. Share with me your knowledge of the aspects of canine predatory behavior patterns needing to be present to to have assed sport work with a dog.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Christopher, as mentioned above you should go to a Sch club and ring club a few times (at least), open you eyes and ears to other breeds. You seem to be basing your standards on one breed, which is OK, but you owe it to yourself to see working dogs of various breeds at work.

I too was stuck on one breed, but after 3 years in Sch, and being exposed to some ring dogs, I'm not so sure about my next dog, Mal?, maybe a GSD/Mal, who knows, but the point is no longer stuck on one breed.

BTW, most people on this board are here to help, so lighten up and be respectful and you will get further ahead.

Eddie


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

"Further, you seem to be defensive as I have corrected your facts about A LOT of dogs being hardwired with the complete set of predatory behaviors I described to exist in my dog. Your response is to give some WOW LOL response in return. I honestly think you might be the one with thin skin acting defensively."

i think ya'll are having a case of "clear as mud"i think you're both right. i think jennifer was reffering to the drives specifiied in working dogs and you are refering to the more primitve "prey behaviors" involved in hunting.

Christopher you are right, most dogs still have some, or all, of the natural prey sueqnece intact but there is a giant differences between a dog with some, or all, natural prey sequence behavior intact and operating and a dog who comes from lines bred specificly for high "prey drive" as it applies to work. 

fixating on, stalking, and killing prey items is a very different behavior than the extreme prey drive that will motivate a working dog to chase and engage a fleeing decoy. its not something that is easily understood until one sees its in person several times. its kind of like that supreme court judge said back in the day about obscenity "i can't define it, but i know it when i see it" after you see it you'll know it.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Christopher, as mentioned above you should go to a Sch club and ring club a few times (at least), open you eyes and ears to other breeds. You seem to be basing your standards on one breed, which is OK, but you owe it to yourself to see working dogs of various breeds at work.


Definitely in my plans. If I manage to not piss off too many people here, I hoping to get input on clubs in the Metro Denver. Again, at this point sport work is not my main motivating desire. There are anomalies in the sport world I am sure. Someone somewhere has a Jack Russel Terrier (or something like this) trained Schutzhund, no? If for nothing more than shits and giggles to show of to their club friends after the run their GSD and make everyone smile.

I have made no decisions yet, but your advice is sound IMO. I think it very wise for anyone, myself included, to think carefully about getting a dog that trrancends the 'pet' classification.



> I too was stuck on one breed, but after 3 years in Sch, and being exposed to some ring dogs, I'm not so sure about my next dog, Mal?, maybe a GSD/Mal, who knows, but the point is no longer stuck on one breed.


To be honest, the true working breed I am stuck on is a BC, followed by an ACD (been around working ones and handlers). However, as weird as it may sound, I do not want a working BC right now - I have my future plans for that. I have a 4 dog pack that dropped to 3 about 1.5 years ago and I think the last one standing will be my Pyr/BC and he is 10, so I have a bit of time to research yet.

The big thing with the Pyr/BC cross is really two things I guess. The first being of course nothing more the sentimental attachment - this I do know and recognize. The second gets down to the fact I am seeing more and more of them and I know that just like with most of the dogs talked about on ths forum, 90% of the dog owners in the world have no business owning them and will end up with a euthanized dog if they do.

Further, I am a knucklehead, but I am not a moron or idiot. I am a single guy in his late 30's living at 10,000' in the mountains. I don't have a 'yard', fences, next door neoighbors, etc. I don't have neighborhood children, children in my house or anyone else for that matter. This is an appropriate time for me to own another piece of work mix or a protection dog as I have thought about this quite a bit.

Know of any clubs or members on this board attending clubs in the Denver Metro area?


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

everyone wants something different, something new
and yet 90% working dogs are 2 breeds
think about why that is?

can you drive in a nail with your fist...eventually
most people just agree to use a hammer that was made for the job


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> i think ya'll are having a case of "clear as mud"i think you're both right. i think jennifer was reffering to the drives specifiied in working dogs and you are refering to the more primitve "prey behaviors" involved in hunting.


I'm not looking for trouble with Jennifer, and I do understand what you are saying in that there may have been some sense of us 'talking past eachother'. How ever, I don't consider his prey drive 'primitive'. It is a complete set of motor patterns he was wired with. Sure, a regression in the domesticated dog, but I don't think them primative behaviors - they are natural ones.



> fixating on, stalking, and killing prey items is a very different behavior than the extreme prey drive that will motivate a working dog to chase and engage a fleeing decoy.


That's part of the conversation I want to develop as I slightly disagree on what your description of 'strong prey drive' is. I can find you a dog that is doing nothing but standing still and it is in as high state of prey drive as a Mal chasing a decoy. We call them pointers and they suck for protection work, despite their high prey drive behaviors.

Prey drive I think is overused as it actuallly describes a whole range of motor patterns when people really mean to talk about specific motor patterns involved in the base canine predatory sequence.

What the hell is my point? I know that a BC can't do protection work. I also know that if somebody told me the reason they can't do sport work is because they don't have as strong a prey drive of a Mal I would laugh in their face. Seriously, I would. What the BC lacks, among other temperment issues, is *specific hard wired predatory motor patterns*. Namely the biting sequece.

Dog can't bite for sport work because it was not wired to. Even if you had the hardest BC in the world that was aggressive wasn't afraid to be pushed by a decoy, etc., it still wouldn't have the natural bite of a GSD or Mal. And that is nothing that can be trained, I know this.

I have a dog that came wired with every predatory motor pattern, which, again, is not common in domesticated dogs, no matter how many ducks one's GSD has killed and how many decoys it has successfully handled. If I had knew enough at the time and had wanted to, I could have selected individual motor patterns to bring out and develop, just like is done with sport dog pups.

What I am trying to get a handle on is a more precise conversation of those individual motor patterns, which ones are most necessary and how strong each one needs to be. I have looked at a lot of threads on this site, and have not come across that kind of info. Maybe I have missed it though?


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Well, I have raised a couple of people's hackles, so how about a few dog pics instead of opinions to try to diffuse things a bit and see if I can convey the impression that although a knucklehead, I am not some jackass walking around a kindergarten playground with a vicious dog on a leash and a spiked collar.

What's a Pyr/BC look like? Depends. Here is what mine looks like:










In addition to the other things he came wired with, he came equipped with a play bow as well, though he only ever uses it on me, never any other humans or dogs.



















For size reference, when he was in his prime like in these pictures he was about 62 lbs. I would describe his frame as a streched out 45 lb. BC on stilts. Pretty fluffy as well and his coat definitely gives him the appearance of an additional 10-15 lbs due to his height and length.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

He's very pretty. Years ago I had a St Bernard x Collie who looked very similar with the exception that he was red and white. Beautiful dog.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

And what the heck, I referenced growing up around a Pyr.

Myself, Alfons and my older brother about 35 years ago in Salida, CO.:










An immature Alfons and an immature Christopher Fox:










A big dog on a big pile of wood in a little scanned in picture:










A little different pyr then a lot of the ones I see today, 4 decades later, big fluffy oafs with rear dew claws the size of my thumb.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> He's very pretty. Years ago I had a St Bernard x Collie who looked very similar with the exception that he was red and white. Beautiful dog.


Definitely a neat looking dog. His grey eyes always tripped people out. Definitely a fun dog to watch in motion - a BC with a high center of gravity. Although I haven't seen him pull it out in a few years, he also came equipped with more than one running gait and the most enjoyable to watch was when he whipped out his double flight gait with those disproportionately long, skinny legs.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Christopher Fox said:


> What I am trying to get a handle on is a more precise conversation of those individual motor patterns, which ones are most necessary and how strong each one needs to be. I have looked at a lot of threads on this site, and have not come across that kind of info. Maybe I have missed it though?



Maybe it is because the precise patterns you seem to think are very important, are not that important to people working in dog sports? They are not testing if the dog likes to dissect things after they kill them when choosing dogs for sport work from what I have seen....they have differnent tests!

Okay I will leave that for dogsport people, since I am not one of them. I have worked in SAR with a few BC's and BC crosses however, and I beleive prey drive to be an important componant in selection of a good avalanche dog.

We use a ragging article as a reward. There are differences in what various dogs like to do with that article once won. Some like to shake it, some like to posess it, some like bring it to a person and fight with it, some like to lay down and shred it.

It is more important to me that I can capitalize on that prey drive for searching and pursuit for the article under difficult conditions than what the dog does once they have it.

I have a personal preference, but I have seen lots of good search dogs who's prey drive is manifested differently after the biting/tugging part.

Now my dog will catch a ground squirel, give it a death shake and eat it...if I let him. I like to use my dog's prey drive to train behaviors that I think are important (from obedience to search work) rather than to stalk, catch, kill and eat things however, so the opportunities he gets are rare. 

Even though he would pull apart an animal and eat it, he is not one of the "disecting types" with a ragging article. His preference is to engage a person in a tug/fight game. So, I don't think it relates really well to the best workers in my chosen venue.

You could get lots of dogs with some prey drive to do some basic bitework I am sure. You can google labs and BC's doing Sch for example. I could teach my floppy eared dog some pretty easily, BUT if you want a dog that DOESN'T SUCK at it, pick a breed other than your BC/pyr cross, try one with pointy ears at least


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

My Shar Pei does this every Day:

Orient -> Eye -> Stalk -> Chase -> Grab-Bite -> Kill-Bite -> Dissect -> Consume

too bad he still doesn't have his Balls, I would only charge you a small Stud Fee........:lol::lol:..........#-o


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> too bad he still doesn't have his Balls, I would only charge you a small Stud Fee


Not what I was looking for at the time or now, same for yourself I am sure. And just like every dog, it is what it is. Describing behaviors in my dog does not make prideful of them ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Maybe it is because the precise patterns you seem to think are very important, are not that important to people working in dog sports?


But they are important. I guess a trainer can be trained to follow a set of rules on a particular breed with known motor patterns without ever really understanding what they are doing and working with but ...?



> I beleive prey drive to be an important componant in selection of a good avalanche dog.


Yes, and protection people believe prey drive is important and herding people think prey drive is important and hound people think prey drive is important and lurching people think prey drive is important and on and on.

Everyone is calling different sets of predatory behaviors the same thing, namely prey drive. That is what I am trying to get beyond.

Let see if I can be clearer. This is from a chart I have from a biologist that studied 3,000 + dogs across the globe over decades:

>> = connected motor patterns
*bold* = hypertrophied
( ) = fault

LGD: (orient) (eye) (stalk) (chase) (grab-bite) (kill-bite)

Header: *Orient>> EYE >> STALK >> CHASE* (grab-bite) (kill-bite)

Heeler: Orient>> eye stalk *CHASE>> GRAB-BITE* (kill-bite)

Hound: *Orient>> Mark>> CHASE>> GRAB-BITE>> KILL-BITE*

Pointer: *Orient>> EYE* (stalk) (chase) *GRAB-BITE* (kill-bite)

Retriever: *Orient>>* eye stalk chase *GRAB-BITE* (kill-bite)

Make sense? Anything in ( ) is a motor pattern the dog should not display. The >> means that one motor pattern genetically leads to the next one, no training. Anything bold is super strong, compulsive motor pattern, what everyone in all these different arenas call strong prey drive. I am looking for someone to do this for a protection dog. You say you have done sar training, do you think you could further define the prey drive you look for in this manner?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Christopher Fox said:


> You say you have done sar training, do you think you could further define the prey drive you look for in this manner?


I tried to do that for you. 

Perhaps you could tell me how I should test the dogs prey drive to know in which of your catagories I should put them in. Should I give them each something to kill?

I attempted to describe for you some of the differences I see with the dogs and how they treat their prey reward (ragging article).

A dog that doesn't have the kind of prey drive that equals liking to bite/tug a rag will not survive in our program. Dogs from the retriever family and the herding family (incl GSD's and Mals of course) work out the best in our profile historically.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I just looked it up in the Coppinger book. 
He calls it "predatory Motor patters" in the book DOGS", ch4 "Developemental Environments" pg 116
I don't see where Coppinger refferences anyone or any article for the term so I'm guessing it's from him. 

Either way
If someone is going to post a quote/article on here it would be the correct thing to do in giving the quote/article author credit.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Fox said:


> This is from a chart I have from a biologist that studied 3,000 + dogs across the globe over decades ....


Do you remember who?

Because it looks a lot like Adam Miklósi's _Dog Behaviour, Evolution, and Cognition_, where he re-states the predatory sequence from Coppinger & Coppinger's _Dogs_.

Miklósi credits Coppinger & Coppinger -- as he should.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol:

You beat me, Bob! 

Pretty recognizable text. :lol:


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Ok I'll give this one more try for shits and giggles. 


Christopher Fox said:


> I think you are the one that needs thicker skin. You called me a braggart, labeled me as an irresponsible dog owner just looking for Billy Badass, etc. Oh well, not hurt or offended, and i don't think countering those remarks about my character to be unwarranted or thin skinned.


I did not call you a braggart - I said you bragged about (the traits) of your dog. I did not label you an irresponsible dog owner just looking for Billy Badass - I said that based on your post it sounded like you were just out looking for the next badass BC/Pyr cross - this was because of the afore mentioned bragging about your socially aggressive/dominant/defensive dog. Hopefully that is more clear. If my intention is to name call, I will use more colorful terms  Part of my nature, I don't imply insults I just fling them out like confetti. I became defensive because you said I was insulting you and I wasn't.




Christopher Fox said:


> Further, you seem to be defensive as I have corrected your facts about A LOT of dogs being hardwired with the complete set of predatory behaviors I described to exist in my dog. Your response is to give some WOW LOL response in return. I honestly think you might be the one with thin skin acting defensively.


You didn't correct any of my facts  I stand by my statement that a lot of dogs follow the pattern you described regarding prey drive and predatory behavior. I did not say most, I said a lot. My WOW LOL was in response to your interpretation of what I said (taking everything as an insult and putting words in my post that weren't there)




Christopher Fox said:


> If you think my words will cost me acceptance of experienced people here, so be it. I am doing nothing more than trying to talk a little more in depth about prey drive. Apparently first I must run the gauntlet of arms of being told because I new to sport dog training I know nothing of hard drive dogs, etc? And you are the sergeant of arms directing the gauntlet of interrogation? Hmm.


I questioned your experience because you were the first to state that you were a newbie, were inexperienced, etc. Working dogs/sport dogs are different that LGDs and most dogs used for farm and ranch work. They are not superior or more serious, I consider LGDs and working ranch dogs to be awesome animals and am around them often as I live on an 80 acre horse ranch surrounded by other horse and cattle ranches. 

I ask questions if someone comes around and the first thing they have to say is about how they have this socially aggressive dominant defensive dog that has superior prey drive because it exhibits every single stage of the predatory behavior model they read about in some book. 

The first thing a lot of people do when they don't actually know much about dogs is to post massive amounts of scientific/research based information that someone they've never met did. People may be able to understand what they read but are often incapable of applying that information to anything but theoretical situations. I think Jeff O calls it regurgitating. 



Christopher Fox said:


> But lets put that behind us Jennifer. Share with me your knowledge of the aspects of canine predatory behavior patterns needing to be present to to have assed sport work with a dog.


People don't discuss how a dog kills a squirrel when bitework comes up. Why? Because it does not matter one iota whether or not a dog kills other animals or not, or how it kills them, or what it does after it kills them. While biting is common in both catching live prey and doing bitework these are two very different things. Steps are skipped/not part of the game in sportwork, and there is no killing or eating.

The motivation for the actions is what counts, not the actions alone. A dog chases a rabbit to kill it an most likely eat it. A dog does not chase a decoy with intent to kill and eat him. Some dogs maybe to kill but doubtfully to eat him LOL.

True prey drive is the natural process you describe and involves other living animals. A lot of (notice I did not say most) dogs possess true prey drive where the intention is to stalk, chase, kill, and eat. The point is to have something to eat or there would be no caution involved. A dog that simply wants to chase will not be concerned with stalking and showing caution in order to set up for the catch, kill, and consumption of the prey it finds. 

One thing to remember is that even though they possess the drive and the raw material, they must have opportunity to learn by being shown or from trial and error, how to hunt. Most pets never have an adult to teach them to hunt or enough opportunities with critters to learn from trial and error. These dogs may not go through the steps and stages of predatory behavior but the material is actually there.

Sportwork utilizes movement to incite interest from the dog who views the sleeve or tug as "prey" because the movements of the decoy are rapid and fast, simulating a rabbit or other small animal. We want the dog to be interested in this unnatural item and to consider it prey because it is the least stressful and easiest way to motivate and teach the dog when and how to bite this thing we are presenting to them. They never have the satisfaction of killing, dissecting, and eating during bitework. The dog must find satisfaction and reward in biting alone, the fight and the stimulation while biting must be enough to maintain the dog's interest in the game of sportwork.

No dog considers a tug and a rabbit to be the same thing. Dogs know that while a tug or rag may move erratically and quickly, it is not a rabbit. A dog comes to understand that the process of chase-catch-bite-fight does not lead to something dead that it can eat, and for some dogs that is not exciting. 

I have learned with my newest pup- an Airedale bred for hunting boar, bear, and various critters - just how much difference there is in a dog that bites because biting is fun and dog that bites because it wants to kill and eat. My AB has killed and eaten critters and his interest in bitework never changed. The Airedale on the other hand, true to his breeding, is more interested in the actual hunt than just the act of biting. He is doing a hundred times better right now than 2 weeks ago, but it was a rough time for me finding something interesting enough to get him to bite something he knew damn well was not living that he could not kill and eat.

It doesn't make him less of a dog or less serious of a dog if his interest in bitework fades again and I cannot rekindle it. It just means he is not a sportdog. Or I am an idiot. Lol.

Hopefully that is better and less confrontational. Not only did I describe and explain things from my POV but I gave an example of my own dog and called myself an idiot.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes, the biologist I referenced was Coppinger. Page 199 was where that chart came from. I was very clear that this info came from a biological study. The who's and what's of the study I didn't include - all ya gotta do is ask if you want to know where my info comes from.

Excuse me. I didn't know that if I threw out that name it would be recognizable, so I threw out the man's profession instead.

Apparently my chops get busted if I don't post a bibliography in my post before I get asked for verification. Lesson learned.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

No different from printing other people's text anywhere. Without anyone asking, you credit the author. 




Christopher Fox said:


> .... Excuse me. I didn't know that if I threw out that name it would be recognizable


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Now you're joking... :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> No different from printing other people's text anywhere. Without anyone asking, you credit the author.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Certainly think so. I recognized the text but could not recall the source. I'm glad it was requested.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Certainly think so. I recognized the text but could not recall the source. I'm glad it was requested.


I'm pretty sure he was kidding about thinking the name would be unrecognized here. :lol:


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm pretty sure he was kidding about thinking the name would be unrecognized here. :lol:


 
I'm not...[-X


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> > First of all, I'm an expert on nothing, but.... I know when I smell a strange one....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I'm not...[-X




Well, of course we clods on a dog board have mostly just seen the sock-puppet version of Coppinger's _Dogs_, but that doesn't mean we don't know the name if you spell it slowly.

Other dog books too! Well, all the ones that've been turned into made-for-TV movies (or cartoons).


:lol:

Sorry, Christopher. It is kinda funny. It's a dog board.

I'll stop. :-$


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I tried to do that for you.


I guess I missed it.



> Perhaps you could tell me how I should test the dogs prey drive to know in which of your catagories I should put them in. Should I give them each something to kill?


That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Everyone start giving their puppies live animals for temperment testing, make sure you beat the crap out of the ones that refuse to kill and eat them, and then all th ones that do, make sure you send them all to me.

Let's be real here.

I'm suggesting nothing more than observation and conversation of behavior, like I have done in my dog. Things like if your dog eye-stalks does it _always_ chase, or is it merely prone to without the genetical link and consistency needs to be trained

People are focused in this dissection and killing thing. It is merely a hardwired behavior that exists in my dog. Further it looks like this in him:

kill-bite>>dissection Consume

No bold. Not common. But, his dissection behavior is present [/i]only[/i] when he executes a kill bite. You spend enough time walking enough miles over the years with dogs in the mountains and you come across dead animals. Some partially eaten already some dead from causes other than predation. If my Pyr/BC comes across a dead rabbit that died of starvation, he will sniff it, but that is it. He does not know how to dissect unless the kill-bite came first.

Your dog sounds like this:

kill-bite dissection consume. No gentic link as it sounds like your dog will dissect a carcass? That's a behavioral difference in our dogs, even though we would both define our dogs as high prey drive dogs. We call them the same, but they act differently.

Do you see the significance of this? That if I could train him to dissect a carcass him came upon, even though he has no hardwired behavior to _automatically_ present to do so, because the _motor pattern_ is present. I am guessing you are still thinking I am a jackass wanting to train dogs to rip apart animals.

For the record, my Pyr/BC has not killed anything in years, for a couple of reasons, one of them becuase of me - I don't allow him to. The husky mix, is a different story. Good luck training a husky to not do this. And I don't mention it to brag about it. I don't have mice. I have bushy tailed wood rats and yellow bellied marmots. They destroy house wiring, plumbing, etc. I have a zero tolerance policy for rodents, especially really big ones, in my house, so I don't freak out if the husky mix gets a marmot or two every year close to the house - he is earning his food.

No doubt in my mind that a dog wired this way:

*CHASE>>GRAB-BITE*

is easier to train for sport work than a dog wired this way:

*CHASE GRAB-BITE*

The latter dog would have to be trained to bite every time the chase ended, where the former would automatically, no trianing, bite every time the chase ended.

Information I am trying to get at is what is most neccesary. What motor patterns need to be hypertrophied and which need to be genetically linked for a dog to be able to do half-assed sport work.

According to my interpretations of your words, a dog only needs strong prey drive, which doesn't tell me much about your dog's behaviors, only that some predatory motor patterns are compulsive. Which one's.

If all you need in an SAR dog is strong prey drive, then I challenge you to take a working pointer and trun it into an SAR dog. A working pointer is overflowing with prey drive, just like a working mal. But it doesn't have a Mal's predatory behavior patterns.

To understand what it takes for a dog to be trained to do work, you have to be able to understand the individual motor patterns required for that work. Well, you don't _have_ to as I have come across more than one trainer who is nothing more than a trained creature themselves, going through the motions, following the playbook, without understanding what is going on.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"Everyone start giving their puppies live animals for temperment testing"

Belive it or not I know people and Know people on this board who know people that DO do this with Pups and they use a Pigeon.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, of course we clods on a dog board have mostly just seen the sock-puppet version of Coppinger's _Dogs_, but that doesn't mean we don't know the name if you spell it slowly.
> 
> Other dog books too! Well, all the ones that've been turned into made-for-TV movies (or cartoons).
> :-$


* ERH...play nice MOD!!! 8-[*


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

I know there are some new posts that may have gone up while I was typing my last. I'll read them, but I haven't yet. I'm going to go away from the computer for a while, but I want to be clear about a couple things first.

I'm not going to start calling names, engaging in too much off-topic back and forth. I am trying to stay focused on the issue. But, like most humans, you throw a zinger my way, I am inclined to respond in turn, right or wrong. No one has answered my questions yet. Plenty of responses though. Good advertising. Keeps this thread near the top which increases my chances of somebody reading it and answering some questions. Maybe by page 6 someone will actually talk to me what about what I am trying to talk about.

Maybe not though. Have at it guys, only one way to find out.

Quite frankly, I am a bit surprised about the deer int he headlight reaction I am perceiving from some. I have talked about this sort of stuff with dog people before. An example of a conversation with a rancher/trainer goes like this:

"What don't you want to see in a pup?"
"Well, I'll put up with a little bit of clappin', but if it's a clapper from the git go, I won't waste my time."

Translated from rancher lingo to the format I have been using in this thread, what he said was this:

*EYE>>STALK>>CHASE*

The dog _cannot_ engage in chase behavior unless it first eyes and stalks it. It's a clapper from the git go.

How about a protection/sport dog?

My guess:

Good dog: *ORIENT* eye stalk *CHASE>>GRAB-BITE*

Has to be wired at the very least like this to be considered a good dog to work with

Maybe not the dog to send out with a soldier or a cop, but a very workable working dog might look like this: ORIENT eye stalk *CHASE GRAB-BITE*

My only question concerning sport dog prey drive is can someone take a shot at doing what I just in those three examples for a dog the would be towards the lower end of suitablity for sport work, to the point of that going through the motions?

The rest of it all, books I have read, animals my dog has killed, etc., etc., well have at it guys, I appreciate the thread bump nonetheless.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't understand how to list the desirable steps in the sequence for sport while ignoring the centuries of painstaking culling out of the final phase of the pattern in shepherds, and the satisfaction that then has to be (and is) derived by them from the phases that precede it. 

Or maybe I don't understand the question at all. :lol: Quite possible.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I'll confess that I'm not all that impressed by Coppinger and he should have left herding out of his book altogether. The most he's dealt with a per se herding dog is the one he owns--a BC that doesn't work and that he doesn't like. One problem with dealing with the lab science approach is that you miss other characteristics of the dog other than drives. One of the best descriptions I've seen regarding the Predatory Sequence is part of an Appendix in Scott Lithgow's "Training And Working Dogs for Quiet Confident Control of Stock." His hunt Predatory Sequence is:

1. Tracking [scent]
2. Trailing [sight]
3. Cast
4. Block
5. Drive
6. Cuff off
7. Chase
8. Snap at appendages
9. Kill/bite
10. Carry
11. Dissection

Depending on the prey hunted, dogs may hunt in packs or as an individual. Figure 102 states the following: In domestic breeds the predatory system has been modified in various ways according to human needs. Michael Fox [1978] proposed a model wherein domestic breeds have teh same innate organization of the sequence of predatory behaviors but differ in the emphasis placed on various behaviors in that sequence:

Tracking trailing
|
|___________________________________bloodhounds
Herding Driving
|
|
|___________________________________sheep dogs
|
|
Stalking pointing
|____________________________________setter, pointer

Attacking, killing
|____________________________________boarhound
|
|
Retrieving_____________________________retrievers, 

"In this figure the sequence of predatory behavior comes doewn the page while the horizontal lines mark points of truncation of the sequence in the breeds shown. Thus sheep dogs may do tracking, trailing, herding and driving but, according to the model, would not perform actions past the point of truncation. [Actually, I have some reservations about the exact sequence shown although I agree that truncation of an innate sequence exists]" {TC: Note that pointers/setters were bred into BCs supposedly to get the stalk/point}.

Michael Fox did a number of crosses to explore the idea of genetics and the prey---kill sequence. He proposed that ost domestic breeds have truncation at the kill-bite and that a number of breeds are truncated even earlier in the sequence. The sequence can be recommenced at any time but it always has to stop at the truncation point if it gets that far. Because of truncation, actions prior to the point of truncation may be repreated over and over. 

Coppinger and others propose a different scheme based on the degree of immaturity of the physical development of the adults of the breed---the neotony theory based on head shape and other physical characteristics. Truncation is based on or aligned to maturity & physical characteristics. Its interesting that they place St. Bernards and LGDs in the immature category and sheep dogs are considered less mature than dogs bred for cattle work.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Who cares about the Pry/BC cross? I really don't... #-o


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think in the sport protection dog, you probably utilize all of them except the truncated kill. I think in another thread Don indicated that when you take a dog without truncated kill to the artificial context of protection "sports," and you activate the drive/sequence, it remains to be seen whether you can convince that dog its a game and have control of the sequence. Jeff indicated in discussing certain bulldog strains, you run into the same issue. True killers don't mess around. They disable and go for the throat as soon as they can. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

[ An example of a conversation with a rancher/trainer goes like this:

"What don't you want to see in a pup?"
"Well, I'll put up with a little bit of clappin', but if it's a clapper from the git go, I won't waste my time."

Translated from rancher lingo to the format I have been using in this thread, what he said was this:

*EYE>>STALK>>CHASE*

The dog _cannot_ engage in chase behavior unless it first eyes and stalks it. It's a clapper from the git go.

_Actually, if the dog is a true clapper, it won't chase. Its truncated pretty much at "stalk." What your rancher is referring to is the BC tendency to lock up in a mexican standoff staring contest with his stock and he doesn't move the stock. He's locked in eye/stalk and his body posture is clapped down. Once they started selecting for eye/stalk with the advent of sheep dog trialing, they lost other parts of the sequence. I think in the dogs that I've seen that are "sticky" [another word for clapper], they do have some element of chase or moving the stock but the sticky outweighs the chase._

How about a protection/sport dog?

My guess:

Good dog: *ORIENT* eye stalk *CHASE>>GRAB-BITE*

Has to be wired at the very least like this to be considered a good dog to work with

Maybe not the dog to send out with a soldier or a cop, but a very workable working dog might look like this: ORIENT eye stalk *CHASE GRAB-BITE*

My only question concerning sport dog prey drive is can someone take a shot at doing what I just in those three examples for a dog the would be towards the lower end of suitablity for sport work, to the point of that going through the motions?

The rest of it all, books I have read, animals my dog has killed, etc., etc., well have at it guys, I appreciate the thread bump nonetheless.[/quote]

_Sure you want grab bite and I think you may elicit a few "elementary Watsons" but I thought what you were originally asking was whether a dog that had all the elements in the predatory sequence including kill and dissect could be trained in protection sports? The breed that always comes to mind with a discussion such as this is the APBT. Look at the fighting line dogs that were bred to fight/kill where another animal is concerned, yet be soft to man. The question remains whether you can always state that the dog will act the same towards man as he does towards animals in terms of drive expression. However you label your sequence and where your dog fits therein, that is the ultimate question. Most of us deal in herders that were bred with truncating the kill phase. Although, I've seen references by a few mal people that if you spin the dog up enough, they can't guarantee that he will go for the trained target areas. Could go for the jugular. So for your ultimate question regarding a dog with kill , the answer from most would be "don't know." _


_Terrasita_


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> _Actually, if the dog is a true clapper, it won't chase. Its truncated pretty much at "stalk." What your rancher is referring to is the BC tendency to lock up in a mexican standoff staring contest with his stock and he doesn't move the stock. He's locked in eye/stalk and his body posture is clapped down. Once they started selecting for eye/stalk with the advent of sheep dog trialing, they lost other parts of the sequence. I think in the dogs that I've seen that are "sticky" [another word for clapper], they do have some element of chase or moving the stock but the sticky outweighs the chase._


_


_I didn't specify, but I was talking about cattle dogs. ACD's in particular. Cattle dogs do clap. Bad ones do it too much, workable ones do it randomly the best ones don't do it at all- they orient and immediatly chase. The point I was making was this rancher's assesment of the individual predatory behaviors a dog came wired with. He doesn't just look for prey drive. He looks at the specific predatory behaviors that dog is wired with and makes an assessment of which are workable and which are a waste of time to try to trian around.



> _Sure you want grab bite and I think you may elicit a few "elementary Watsons" but I thought what you were originally asking was whether a dog that had all the elements in the predatory sequence including kill and dissect could be trained in protection sports?_


_

_Kind of. It was more of if I have a pup with them all, it has every necessary predatory behavior pattern wired in to it to do sport work (which my 10 y.o. does - no behavior pattern is missing, which is why I used him as an example), which ones need to be really strong, connected, not preferred, etc, for bare minimum dog has fun and guy (me) buys decoy a 6-pack for not trying to make my dog piss himself. I don't need a protection dog. Dogs that bark are good enough protection for me and I would not be doing it coimpetitively.

Saying a dog needs prey drive says not much to me, because, again, a pointer on point is in a very high state of prey drive, but pointing at a bad guy does do much in real world protection work, so there is more to the story, individual motor patterns to be discussed to really understand both what is going on during the work and what the base requirements of the dog are.



> Well, I'll confess that I'm not all that impressed by Coppinger and he should have left herding out of his book altogether. The most he's dealt with a per se herding dog is the one he owns--a BC that doesn't work and that he doesn't like.


You and I will have to agree to disagree on this. Not the be all end all knows more than everybody else dog guy, but I think that book to be a very valuable resource of information and insight into dog behavior and training, in adition to just the general study and observation of canines worldwide throught the course of history.

More specifically on a point of disagreement, _'The most he's dealt with a per se herding dog is the one he owns'_ not correct, unless you know something I don't, and if you do please share it with me. He owned trained more than one. When he began researching livestock dogs in the late 70's, he started with 6 BC's. His book clearly states observations of multiple BCs including the ones he trained as LGD's as pups and how they were unable to be trained as herders after that.

I don't know the numbers on BCs but he refers to breeding and placing over 1400 LGDs from 77 to 1990. Guy knows a little something about BCs.



> One of the best descriptions I've seen regarding the Predatory Sequence is part of an Appendix in Scott Lithgow's "Training And Working Dogs for Quiet Confident Control of Stock."


Thanks for sharing that with me. I like exposing myself to different thoughts on the same issue and I will definitely give that model more thought and research. I do understand your objections to a truly scientific approach, even though that is my preferred method to deal with the world. There is a little bit of feel and finesse in everything I suppose.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Again, you have to get outside of the lab setting. He "observed" BCs. He experimented with 6 by raising them amongst LGDs. He did not train one or work one as a stock dog, other than some feeble attempts with Jane. Its statements like, "Its impossible to try to even herd sheep with a pup until he shows eye," that a person that has worked herding dogs finds objectionable and bordering on ridiculous. Eye in the herding breeds and that includes BCs exists in variable degrees. I've had one corgi with eye stalk and my bouvier has eye stalk and depending on the animal, all aspects of the prey hunt sequence. What gets even more interesting is the herding dog that also instinctively guards his flock--hence the innate tending dog. Observe an LGD and watch him gather his stock and hold them in a place he deems safe. Its not nearly as black and white as the lab approach suggests. There are many herding breeds that were bred for a variety of herding functions. How that dog expresses his prey drive is the tip of the ice berg. There are other factors invovled that will determine whether the dog can perform the desired functions. 

I think you'll get a lot more out of Lithgow's book and the appendix by Don Morris wherein he relies mostly on Michael Fox and Scott Fuller as resources.

Terrasita


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

My suggestion is to stop reading books and go train some dogs.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Hey Jennifer Coulter if you are still around this thread. I think you were trying to be helpful. In addition I do not know but if I had to guess you might have trouble finding people to chat about SAR dogs with, more specifically avy dogs, as often as you want so in an effort to see if I can communicate my thoughts to you a bit better, I'll talk about how these motor patterns relate to avy dog work.

For background, I have never worked or trained or selected for an avy dog. I have been around several, however, and I have spent many hours punched in on a time clock wearing a beacon. I also don't think it arrogant or inaccurate to say that I have a better knowledge base of the working conditions and environment that an avy dog has to deal with in a real world search than the average SAR handler, so I do have a legitmate basis to form opinions from.

That being said, I have an idea in my mind about what is really going on when a dog is on a search as far as the dogs predatory behavior patterns and what is needed. If my objective was to train a real deal avy dog, the first thing I would do is go buy the best working line labrador retriever I could afford and convince a breeder to sell me and if everything else was equal, I would grab the one out of the litter that showed no desire of standing still.

Why a lab? There are two reasons, one being their physical conformation for the environment, that I can get into if you want. The other is the set of predatory behaviors bred into the dog and how they are wired together that I can expect a dog to come from the labrador retriever dog factory wired with that I think are useful in avy work.

Behaviors I can describe in much more detail then just strong and weak prey drive in response to somebody shaking a doll in front of dogs nose to assess prey drive and the suitability for SAR work.

Let me know if you are interested in me expounding either about the physical conformation or predatory behavioral aspects.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Hey Christopher, just reading through some of the posts here and your replies, just to set the record straight I am NOT an expert. Looks to me like you had some really great questions at first. The people on this forum are willing to share knowlege and expertise with all of us who ask. That is a generous thing to offer. Why are you so defensive? I interpret your realtiy based on what you are saying as....you have an "a^*hole" for a dog and lack the skills to modify the behavior, maybe you are the type of guy that just wants to tell all of us that you are not only proud of your inability to redirect your dog but you want another one to boot. I am glad I am not your neighbourly cyclist as a dog chasing me is one thing but a dog chasing me that is owned by someone who lacks the skills to controll it as you seem to do is inappropriate. You have a liability Christopher, not a nice pet or a working candidate. If you want a badass dog that can get you somewhere, just get a Mali, although you will still be in over your head based on your attitude your neighbours may be able to rely on an aspect of benevolence in the animal a little more than they could with a BC/Pyr cross!! Good luck. (pardon my lack of spell check I dont want to download the tool)


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Christopher Fox said:


> Hey Jennifer Coulter if you are still around this thread. I think you were trying to be helpful. In addition I do not know but if I had to guess you might have trouble finding people to chat about SAR dogs with, more specifically avy dogs, as often as you want so in an effort to see if I can communicate my thoughts to you a bit better, I'll talk about how these motor patterns relate to avy dog work.
> 
> For background, I have never worked or trained or selected for an avy dog. I have been around several, however, and I have spent many hours punched in on a time clock wearing a beacon. I also don't think it arrogant or inaccurate to say that I have a better knowledge base of the working conditions and environment that an avy dog has to deal with in a real world search than the average SAR handler, so I do have a legitmate basis to form opinions from.
> 
> ...


Hey there. Still here. Just can't talk in the language you were looking for so bowed out.

I know that Labs are the favored animal in US avi dog programs. We have some very nice ones in our program too. When I say "our program" I mean the Canadian Avalanche Rescue Dog Association (CARDA) program. Unlike the US there is only one program and one standard here. I will tell you it is a fair bit different than many US programs in terms of what they like to see. 

I beleive our program favors a different preditory behavior pattern than most US programs. This is because of the way we reward, and the use of articles in our training program. Mentorship from the RCMP dog program, and the use of PSD handlers as instructors has perhaps shaped the type of drive and pursuit that is favored and the type of reward that is allowed.

I have had the opportunity to observe and instruct teams from various avi dog programs in the US and I will tell you there IS a difference. Whether that diffence is from differences in "predatory sequences" in the types of dogs chosen or a difference in training practices is very difficult to tell when you have not worked with a team since they started in the program.

I will tell you that the CARDA program is well respected in the US, though definatly not everyone's cup of tea. We never have any problems filling our spots open to US handlers. 

Go for it. Tell me why you think the conformation of a lab is better for avy work than any other breed. I have had the pleasure of working with and observing quite a few in our program. 

Like I said, we have some great ones. Also some that never made the cut. Just like any suitable breed will have ones that do well and ones that don't. Labs don't out perfom all the other breeds in our program, and you make it sound like they would/should.

Tell me about the predatory sequence you think is best for avy work, but please tell it to me in your own words. I am blond and not so smart. :roll:


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Go for it. Tell me why you think the conformation of a lab is better for avy work than any other breed. I have had the pleasure of working with and observing quite a few in our program.


I'll try to tie it into why I think the individual predatory behaviors are important to assess and understand, but I need to set it up a bit first. To me, avy work is nothing more than a big game of find the duck. Find a dog really good at finding a duck and you have a good avy dog. As far as the physical part, from my experiences, a well bred and built lab is an absolute all terrain powerhouse. I have been absolutely blown away by a couple of labs I have seen, very athletic, powerful and fast moving over rough terrain.

I know lot's of different breeds and mixes are used for avy work, at least in Colorado, so I am using the lab as a real deal top of the line thing, even though you maybe thinking plenty of dogs will work, because you have seen them. On top of that, the are a very, very few situations an avy dog could be placed in where it could actually save a life. In fact, only one. In the hands of a ski patroller at a ski resort, IMO. Exceptions? Of course there are, but the avy stats are sobering.

Not as a matter of insult to you, but I don't consider avy dogs in Colorado to be Search and Rescue dogs. They are Search and _Recover_ dogs. I don't know the avy danger in Canada, but Colorado is the avy mecca of the US for deaths. Since they started keeping stats about 60 years ago, more people have died in avys here than any of the other 50 states, Alaska included. And not by a small amount, second place isn't even close. Lot's of case studies for stats.

As a function of how deep you are buried, once you are buried at least 2 feet, your survival chance is about 50%. As a function of time, once you have been buried for 30 minutes, your survival chance is about 50%.

The time factor is why I choose the lab and the ski patroller because the only chance one has of getting a dog to a debris field in time to begin searching before 30 min has elapsed is a ski patroller who just got a radio call, jumped out of the shack and threw his/her dog on a snowmobile and can get there in a few minutes. You can't get a dog on scene fast enough in the back country, where the vast majority of deaths occur, so it makes no difference what dog one brings to the party. Knit a sweater, some booties, some ear mittens and a tail sheath and teach a short haired dauchsand to do avy work, because if you make it on scene in the back country to a full burial avy it is to look for a meat popcicle and not a living person and the only time frame to beat at this point is spring thaw.

There was a point to that set up there Jennifer, I wanted to further refine the situation I would actually invest the money for that type of dog to train. Too many words in this post, so I will tie that background into the predatory motor patterns in the next post. I am going somewhere with this ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

As reference:

orient>eye-stalk>chase>grab-bite>kill-bite>dissect>consume

Wild canine sees or smells prey (orients), stalks it, chases it, grabs it when close enough and eats it. That is what a wild canine's _prey drive_ is, the sum of the individual motor patterns that puts food in its belly after the moment it sees or smells it in the form of a living animal. Domestic dogs have been bred to selectively eliminate or enhance these individual motor patterns. In Lab, the chase and grab-bite motor patterns are off the charts. When the dog leaves the handlers side to go look for the duck it _oriented_ on as it was falling out of the sky, it is engaging in the _chase_ behavior. When the dog reaches the duck it picks it up, showing you the _grab-bite_ behavior.

To me, a dog air scenting an avy debris field for a human is no different than a dog air scenting a field looking for a duck. And when any dog you work is actively seeking the source of the hidden/buried human, it is _chasing_ prey. From what I understand about what you said, what you are testing for when testing for prey drive is not just prey drive, but more specifically the _chase_ motor pattern and how strongly the dog came wired with it.

And the strength of the dog's prey drive you determine by the dog's ability to stay focused on the chase, on actually completing the chase and catching its prey, without becoming distracted or giving up. Did I explain it better?

Why do I care and why was I trying to generate a conversation about the details of the prey drive for bare minimum rest of the people at the club would laugh at me sport work? Here is why using my theoretical lab avy dog as the example:

Regardless of whether or not you agree with me on the statement that a SAR dog air scenting is nothing more than it acting out the _chase_ part of that entire sequence of behaviors, that is the most important one to me. I want that behavior wired to be really, really strong in my dog. More importantly, I want to make sure that I do whatever I can to bring it out to the maximum.

For the dog to realize its full genetic potential in this aspect. For my nurture to bring out the best of its nature. I subscribe to the imprinting theory with pups and I think a person can most definitely affect how that _chase_ ends up being wired into the adult dogs brain, how strong it is independent of training.

The point being, I know I want a dog with high prey drive to do avy work, but which part(s) of that wild canine prey drive (that sequence)? The _chase_. So, before I even begin SAR training, I take my 8 week old lab pup and I try to keep it 'in chase' as much as I can. I want it to interact with the world around it 'in chase', so that as his brain grows, the part that makes him 'chase' is well developed and a big part of things.

How would I do this? Any way I could, any opportunity. Off of the top of my head would be using feeding time as an opportunity. I would take that pup and after a couple of feedings and would put the bowl down and take him 6 feet away. Wave a piece in front of his nose and let him go. Praise until he reaches food and then stop. A couple feedings later, take him into the next room - make the 'chase' longer. A couple more times, put a laundry basket in the doorway with just enough room to get by. After a couple of times of this, make him have to move the basket to get by. Next, put 10 lbs. of books people on this site will make fun of you for reading in the basket to make it harder to move. Next put a chair there, or whatever.

Change it up. Make it harder to get to the bowl without failure. Am I teaching the pup to _find_ food, some kind of beginning SAR training? I don't think so. I think what I would be doing is keeping that dog in a state of 'chase', for the purpose of imprinting, internal brain wiring as it grows and makes new connections. The dog doesn't get to just walk up to a bowl of food or sit for it - he has to _chase_ it.

The obstacles are nothing more than a hardening of the dog so that *nothing* will stop it or dissuade it from completing the chase at full speed. The praise and food are rewards, but secondary icing on the cake.

Fast forward 6 years. Me and 'ol Hank get a real deal call on the slopes. We hop on a sled and go. But we can't make it all the way to the site on the snowmobile, so we hop on a lift. 20 minutes later, Hank and I are on scene on a debris field the size of a football field comprised of everything from loose snow to several feet in diameter snow boulders to dozens of 40' trees broken like matchsticks. Remember that 30 min mark? I have 10 minutes to search a huge area that is not easy to negotiate before survial rates drop below 50%. This is a real deal situation. A dog making a find in 10 minutes can mean a live person. A dog finding a person in 11 minutes can mean a body recovery, no exaggeration.

Get at it Hank, my all terrain powerhouse. All that money I paid for Hank is now paying off in how focused and determined he is now on chasing that buried person to the exclusion of all other things around and as absolutely as fast as possible. Those books that people laugh at? Well they helped reinforce that determination in Hank so that when he makes a jump to get on top of a 4 foot dia snow boulder, part of it breaks up and he winds up on his ass, he doesn't think twice, nor is he intimidated. Without stopping moving, he makes that jump even harder and stronger and keeps going. Continuing the _chase_ at full speed.

I also expect Hank to bite the person pretty much every time. Why? Hanks doesn't know any better - his brained is wired to pick up the duck. His brain is wired to follow the _chase_ with the _grab-bite_.

Go get the duck Hank. Good boy.

Does that make sense in regards as to why I used my dog as an example and to why I wanted to talk about the specific motor patterns as they relate to sport work?

Let me know if you disagree with my working dog SAR stuff, I'll read it.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I have only had time to briefly read this stuff Chris.

A few things. I AM a ski patroller at a resort with healthy avalanche program. Almost all CARDA dog handlers work in the avalanche industry, we don't really accept people that are not working as avalanche rescue professionals. Other examples would be the ski guiding industry and highways avalanche programs. The vast majority of CARDA dogs are placed in positions that have chances of live recoveries. Even in the best positions, time is not on our side. Dogs are just one more thing in the layer of safety in a big ski resort with lots of avy terrain. That said, there are not so many burials within ski areas so CARDA dogs are often called out by SAR and the RCMP, and I am very aware of the relationship between burial time and depth and survival rates. Why did you think you would have to explain that stuff to me?

I know you are trying not to insult me, but you do come off as pretty condecending. I will survive it though.

I do not disagree that the lab is a great choice for avy work, for many of the reasons you mentioned and some you didn't even touch on. In fact if someone asked me what kind of dog they should get for this kind of work, especially a first time handler, I would pick a lab for sure.

More about why I like a dog who's predatory sequence extends beyond chase for this profile when I have more time.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm pretty sure he was kidding about thinking the name would be unrecognized here. :lol:


Ok, who is Coppinger?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I quit reading this thread in the first page or so. It seemed obvious that so much was left out from lack of understanding prey drives. Terrasita finally brought some reality to the thread. Many people call tracking and trailing "hunt" drive, but it is prey drive. t comes first befor the seeing and the chase normally. Wild predators do not wander aimlessly aroundmthe wilderness hoping to stuble on something to eat. There nose is their eyes. Sometime they do stuble on a meal and being creatures of opportunity, yes, the chase will begin there.
The strength of thye prey drive should be determined from the beginning of the track or scent. A dog that will follow a track for two mile to get the prey has stronger prey drive than one that will only follow a track for a 1/2 mile before giving up.

Isee , sinmce Terrasit's postings, Christopher has now included scenting. If it was there before I missed it.

As far as many of the assumptions about dissecting and eating, Terrasita is on the money about lab type studies. If the dogs are barking at the gate at a squirrel and I go out and shoot it and throw it over the fence to them, they dissect it, as it has been referred to, and they eat it. Why, because they are in the yard. When out hunting, and they kill a squirrel, they leave it and go find another to kill. There is no grabbing of appendages unless they are facing formidable game much larger than themselves. They grab by the back of the skull and neck and shake. 

What it boils down to is the immediate circumstances are going to cause a wide variance in what the observer is going to see. All the variation takes it well out of the realm of understanding it by reading a book. This is why Terrasita is able to call BS on Coppingers work. She does it. She observes it. 
Throwing a ball does not really determing the prey drive. Most any dog will chase a squirrel that is right in front of him. That doesn't make him a hunting dog no matter how many observe the chase and decide he is a hunting dog. A hunting dog needs no visual. He will follow a scent with no visual to find the animal. IMO of course.


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