# Hates slippery floors



## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

I need ideas to get my dog over the slippery floor issue. It's her biggest issue. She literally would be an amazing detection dog, except for the fact of the flooring. She hates it. She doesn't fully shut down, I can get her to walk them by holding her collar or leash, slowly. Or her claws come put and she panics and tries to just run across, claws out all funky. She walks our linoleum daily. She didn't like the tile in one area of our house so I fed her there and she got over it. My parents house has all hard wood and stained concrete and she hates it. But is better on the wood. But she's not generalizing it. If I get her over it in one location it's not transferring to ALL slippery floors. Her nails aren't bad. Fur under paws is not long etc. 

So far I've tried, food and treats scattered on the surface, feeding her on the surface, making her walk laps with me very slowly until she relaxes. Taking her out into a warehouse and dropping the leash and just waiting it out. All of these work. Momentarily. But is not lasting or transferring. 

Looking for ideas to fully get her over this, if its possible. 


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "She literally would be an amazing detection dog"
how are you doing that work and what training aids and set ups are you using ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> I need ideas to get my dog over the slippery floor issue. It's her biggest issue. She literally would be an amazing detection dog, except for the fact of the flooring. She hates it. She doesn't fully shut down, I can get her to walk them by holding her collar or leash, slowly. Or her claws come put and she panics and tries to just run across, claws out all funky. She walks our linoleum daily. She didn't like the tile in one area of our house so I fed her there and she got over it. My parents house has all hard wood and stained concrete and she hates it. But is better on the wood. But she's not generalizing it. If I get her over it in one location it's not transferring to ALL slippery floors. Her nails aren't bad. Fur under paws is not long etc.
> 
> So far I've tried, food and treats scattered on the surface, feeding her on the surface, making her walk laps with me very slowly until she relaxes. Taking her out into a warehouse and dropping the leash and just waiting it out. All of these work. Momentarily. But is not lasting or transferring.
> 
> ...


I might not personally expect dog to ever totally get over it, or expect it to transfer to any surfaces you might come accross.

At what age did this problem show up? how long have you been working on it, and how much exposure to slick floors did the dog have during the first year?

what odors is the dog on? or training aids do you use (toys)? 

since the dog would be an amazing detection dog aside from this issue, I would use the awseome drive level and possession levels that most of the most amazing detection dogs have to try to minimize the issue by taking the floors off of her mind instead of forcing her to go on them out of drive, or for food pieces..

Have you tried having dog WORK, using the hunt drive, on these floors?
if you do any bitework, and dog has drive for that, I might try that as well.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

I'm not really. But it's something I've considered looking into. I have some connections within a police dept locally. I started her on cell phones for fun, and considering my complete lack of experience in this area she did well. She may not do well with bite work, we're kind of looking at new options that will be fun for her. Nose work sport is one but I don't know if they do some indoor trials inside warehouses or other locations where we could run into this issue.

For the cell phones it was strictly for fun. It's what I had on hand and we took a shot at it. I made scent boxes. I then Used Tupperware inside the boxes. Inside one of the Tupperware were cell phones and pieces of the insides of cell phones. Everything I did to one box I did to the other. I made sure her scent/nose and saliva was on all of the boxes and Tupperware. I touched all of them. I used treats at first so they all had the scent of treats. Basically I wanted to make sure that the only difference in scent would be the cell phones themselves. She was accurately choosing the box with phones 100% of the time in two days. But I didn't know where to go from there so I haven't done much after the first week or so. 


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> I'm not really. But it's something I've considered looking into. I have some connections within a police dept locally. I started her on cell phones for fun, and considering my complete lack of experience in this area she did well. She may not do well with bite work, we're kind of looking at new options that will be fun for her. Nose work sport is one but I don't know if they do some indoor trials inside warehouses or other locations where we could run into this issue.
> 
> For the cell phones it was strictly for fun. It's what I had on hand and we took a shot at it. I made scent boxes. I then Used Tupperware inside the boxes. Inside one of the Tupperware were cell phones and pieces of the insides of cell phones. Everything I did to one box I did to the other. I made sure her scent/nose and saliva was on all of the boxes and Tupperware. I touched all of them. I used treats at first so they all had the scent of treats. Basically I wanted to make sure that the only difference in scent would be the cell phones themselves. She was accurately choosing the box with phones 100% of the time in two days. But I didn't know where to go from there so I haven't done much after the first week or so.
> 
> ...


ohhhhh.

does dog have crazy toy drive and/or crazy hunt drive?


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Hi Kristi,

What is the dog like generally with other environmental factors? It is common for dogs that have issues with shiny floors to have other weaknesses too and if you are thinking about investing time and effort into detection training I would want the dog to be bomb proof before I started or you may find you are wasting your time.

How serious is the issue? How long has the dog been like it? Is it limited to specific areas or types of floor? A video may help.

In my experience though the rule of thumb is never force the dog. If they don't want to go onto a surface don't force them no matter how gently you do it you are likely to make the situation worse.

The lady in this video is doing a pretty good job of counter conditioning 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-CCJxF-9U4


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> I might not personally expect dog to ever totally get over it, or expect it to transfer to any surfaces you might come accross.
> 
> At what age did this problem show up? how long have you been working on it, and how much exposure to slick floors did the dog have during the first year?
> 
> ...


I haven't tried making her work on it. Good idea. I could hide her ball and have her find it. She loves that and will search for a long time. I'll try it. I got her at 12 weeks. She had it then. We've been working on it since. She will now walk in lowes and Home Depot fine. She does OK at my parents. But not in the basement where the stained and super slippery and cold concrete is. She hated one section of pet smart but is over that as well. It's new places that are an issue.

She's very possessive of her ball on a string. And regular ball. I was using food because her food drive used to be through the roof. Seems to be changing as she gets older and her toy drive, while its always been high, has grown to be more so than food. So I'll try that angle vs. the food. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> ohhhhh.
> 
> does dog have crazy toy drive and/or crazy hunt drive?


Pretty good with both. Not enough experience with working dogs to say crazy. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Guy Williams said:


> Hi Kristi,
> 
> What is the dog like generally with other environmental factors? It is common for dogs that have issues with shiny floors to have other weaknesses too and if you are thinking about investing time and effort into detection training I would want the dog to be bomb proof before I started or you may find you are wasting your time.
> 
> ...


Everything else is good. Never had a problem taking her anywhere whew she's shown fear to sounds or anything else environmental. Great with people. BUT this isn't anything serious. She's a pet first and foremost. Problem is, she high drive and high energy and without a job she makes a terrible pet. So I won't to find things we can do together that we both enjoy. She loves to hunt. Working her nose tires her out better than anything I've ever tried. So that's why I mentioned it. I would har the opportunity to take her into jails to try out the cell phone detection if I wanted and if she could get over the flooring issue, if not, no big deal. I can def take a video Sunday at my dads shop and show you what it looks like. It's not so severe that she completely shuts down or doesn't recover. But it's not exactly mild either. She's 13 months. I got her at 3 months. Has always been this way. 

She's been to Venice beach on a weekend, carnivals with loud games as rides, we go to bass pro a lot, hardware stores, pet stores, the mall etc. I've never seen any issue except for floors. It is slippery floors or unstable surfaces. I can get her onto unstable ones now using her ball for reward. But she doesn't love it. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Love kikopup. Will look into that. 


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Guy Williams said:


> Hi Kristi,
> 
> What is the dog like generally with other environmental factors? It is common for dogs that have issues with shiny floors to have other weaknesses too and if you are thinking about investing time and effort into detection training I would want the dog to be bomb proof before I started or you may find you are wasting your time.
> 
> ...


that is good video, thanks for sharing it...I like that channel...
a couple things going on in there that could be helpful for sure..

although I suspect Kristi's problems are most likely much worse, from the sounds of it.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Sorry for typos. I phone with kids distracting me. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

I too suspect this will be a lifelong issue. But I figured it wouldn't here to come ask more experienced trainers. 


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the reason i asked what i did is to try and get a clearer pic of her potential as a detection dog ... i got mixed feelings from what you have since described. was hoping she REALLY loved scent work. then i was gonna suggest to set up the boxes near the start of the slick surface...so she would only have to put her 2 front feet on it to work the boxes...

if that doesn't kill her drive for detection, keep moving the boxes further into the slick area...if she quits working her nose, my guess is she doesn't have amazing potential for detection 

but if it works, you now have something that might take her mind of the floor

there are other methods you can try but keep in mind this is also a trust factor; not only a nerve issue ... the more she trusts YOU the less she worries about "other things" when she's with you, so SPECIFICALLY work on building that up too

good luck and keep us posted


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think we all got distracted by the detection dog referrence. 

Hopefully others will give you other tips. although you have a couple ideas here already that may be helpful..

you could also train great focus on your face, and could possibly heel dog right onto the areas without her even knowing it as well, which might make an impression on her as well


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

rick smith said:


> the reason i asked what i did is to try and get a clearer pic of her potential as a detection dog ... i got mixed feelings from what you have since described. was hoping she REALLY loved scent work. then i was gonna suggest to set up the boxes near the start of the slick surface...so she would only have to put her 2 front feet on it to work the boxes...
> 
> if that doesn't kill her drive for detection, keep moving the boxes further into the slick area...if she quits working her nose, my guess is she doesn't have amazing potential for detection
> 
> ...


Great idea. I'll try those! Building more trust, got it. 

Basically she isn't going to work in Ringsport. Considered doing some kind of scent work but can't if it ever involves slippery floors. Thus why I mentioned it. It was just an avenue I was looking to explore with her. If it makes any difference here is her pedigree. Yes dad to daughter. I know. Frowned upon. Didn't know when I got her. Etc etc. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1871983-rogue-von-taylorhof

But quite a few people really like Gordon. 


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> Great idea. I'll try those! Building more trust, got it.
> 
> Basically she isn't going to work in Ringsport. Considered doing some kind of scent work but can't if it ever involves slippery floors. Thus why I mentioned it. It was just an avenue I was looking to explore with her. If it makes any difference here is her pedigree. Yes dad to daughter. I know. Frowned upon. Didn't know when I got her. Etc etc.
> 
> ...


dad to daughter can be fine depending on the dogs, but most people dont like to go that tight I agree.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Try spraying Tacky Hands on her feet. It's stuff that quarterbacks and goalies use so the can catch a slippery ball easily. They sell it at sporting good store.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Try spraying Tacky Hands on her feet. It's stuff that quarterbacks and goalies use so the can catch a slippery ball easily. They sell it at sporting good store.


sounds like a great idea as well to try.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Christopher Smith said:


> Try spraying Tacky Hands on her feet. It's stuff that quarterbacks and goalies use so the can catch a slippery ball easily. They sell it at sporting good store.


I was just looking something like this up. Thanks ill look around for it 


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/paw-wax-50g-dog-paws-protector-by-shaws-36437
Don't know if you have this store where you are?


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Kristi Molina said:


> Pretty good with both. Not enough experience with working dogs to say crazy.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Then the dog probably isnt crazy for it...


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Kristi Molina said:


> I haven't tried making her work on it. Good idea. I could hide her ball and have her find it. She loves that and will search for a long time. I'll try it. I got her at 12 weeks. She had it then. We've been working on it since. She will now walk in lowes and Home Depot fine. She does OK at my parents. But not in the basement where the stained and super slippery and cold concrete is. She hated one section of pet smart but is over that as well. It's new places that are an issue.
> 
> She's very possessive of her ball on a string. And regular ball. I was using food because her food drive used to be through the roof. Seems to be changing as she gets older and her toy drive, while its always been high, has grown to be more so than food. So I'll try that angle vs. the food.
> 
> ...



Possessive? Is that when your on the other end of the rope? Are you sure its possession? Interaction? 

Put the ball on the ground and ignore the dog for a half hour or so, if the ball doesnt come out of her mouth then maybe it has good ball drive or possession....


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

The "work" is always the easy part, but getting there is the hardest part. If she has all the drives to do detection how can she if she cant get across the floor? Enviormentals and confidence are paramount in working dogs among other things.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would not train a dog for detection work with issues like this.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I would not train a dog for detection work with issues like this.


 


Thank god , finally. Hoping it wasn’t going to get worse after “paw spray”


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I would not train a dog for detection work with issues like this.



A trainer can learn a lot training a dog like this. The dog may not ever become certified or work in the real world, but what's the harm in trying? I think sometimes we loose sight of the fact that many people's dogs are first and formost their pets. The dog isn't going to be gotten rid of so why not work with it?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> A trainer can learn a lot training a dog like this. The dog may not ever become certified or work in the real world, but what's the harm in trying? I think sometimes we loose sight of the fact that many people's dogs are first and formost their pets. The dog isn't going to be gotten rid of so why not work with it?


This. 

Kristi says in one of her posts she's just looking for something for the dog to do to keep it busy and "take the edge off" (my words) so she'll be easier to live with. So what's the harm in trying to train the dog for detection, even if it's just birch scent, and trying to help the dog get over it's issues with slick floors?

I like the tacky feet idea. Sometimes it's a visual thing, had a horse who didn't like to cross water and generalized it to all shiny surfaces, but other times it's a real concern about the footing, and the tacky feet can help. If it does, keep some in your car so that you can use it when out and about, and then start trying to find as many places as possible with slick floors to get her on. With enough experience she may start to generalize, at least to the point where there is a minor hesitation but she recovers and works through it a lot faster than she currently does.

As a side note, forgetting about the detection end of things, slick floor issues are reasonably common in dogs, having some "tricks" in the training bag for dealing with this can be helpful for any trainer that is working with John Q Public's dogs in some capacity.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Play ball on slick floors. See i she'll retrieve there. I agree with christopher. If it's a pet, why not. Also dont focus somuch on the issue that it becomes a real issue. Set goals and try and slowly reach them. Video of the dog would be good in seekin advice via the wdf.

Dont coddle her when she shows fear. This can be interpreted as praise, and then you have encouraged the behavior. More common than you'd think. At the very worst, ignore her if she flattens out. Dont make a big deal of it. Praise or put the ball back into play when she comes up again, even a little. If you can get herto retreive a ball next to slick floor in the first session, stop. Baby steps. Good luck.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Video of the dog would be good ... "_


Ditto.

I've worked with this twice, or maybe three times (I'm old), and one of those times the dog was actually physically awkward on very smooth surfaces. Different from a dog who was fine after a little desensitizing work.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Regarding tacky foot, I would think if it is tacky then it's going to pick up all kinds of lint and dog hair from the ground and then not work so good. 

I don't have experience with it at all though. But I am experienced in using lint rollers and that's what they do. 

I have a dog who grew up in his back yard and is not comfortable on unknown surfaces at first. I walked into the vets office with him and he hit the deck. He scrambled over to an area rug and flattened out like he found a life raft. That was a surprise. The vet wanted to line the floor to the exam room with rugs. Since I have a lot less patience these days I said forget that and just started walking. By the time we got to exam room the dog was fine. So that's been my strategic super well thought out plan for dealing with any similar issues. 

Good luck and have fun!

Laura


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## dewon fields (Apr 5, 2009)

easy fix, she only eats on the slippery floor. You'll have to let go of guilt, and just do it. Hunger will change a dog fast.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Some other minor comments not mentioned

Hair between pads trimmed? Nails short? 

Eye exam? [sometimes vision problems..I was told slick floors require confidence because, at best, they are not processing that visual info as well as we do so gravitate towards dark areas]


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

dewon fields said:


> easy fix, she only eats on the slippery floor. You'll have to let go of guilt, and just do it. Hunger will change a dog fast.


 It generally doesn't change a dog. It'll just force him to be uncomfortable while eating.

If everything that is tried that folks suggested and there is still a problem then only the man upstairs can fix this. 

Training a dog for detection with this issue (for work indoors) can be more stressful on the owner and dog than it should, which makes for no fun at all. I agree that if the dog is there to stay than they should do something that is a good match for the dog's capabilities to ensure success. Nothing worse than to see a valiant effort that ends in a dog shutting down and a handler being frustrated.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

She could just continue detection work for fun on carpet.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Kristi Molina said:


> I'm not really. But it's something I've considered looking into. I have some connections within a police dept locally. I started her on cell phones for fun, and considering my complete lack of experience in this area she did well. She may not do well with bite work, we're kind of looking at new options that will be fun for her. Nose work sport is one but I don't know if they do some indoor trials inside warehouses or other locations where we could run into this issue.
> 
> For the cell phones it was strictly for fun. It's what I had on hand and we took a shot at it. I made scent boxes. I then Used Tupperware inside the boxes. Inside one of the Tupperware were cell phones and pieces of the insides of cell phones. Everything I did to one box I did to the other. I made sure her scent/nose and saliva was on all of the boxes and Tupperware. I touched all of them. I used treats at first so they all had the scent of treats. Basically I wanted to make sure that the only difference in scent would be the cell phones themselves. She was accurately choosing the box with phones 100% of the time in two days. But I didn't know where to go from there so I haven't done much after the first week or so.
> 
> ...


Again... I've clarified several times. For FUN. They have nose work courses that involve things like birch. Sorry, detection was the wrong word. I am not looking to train and sell her as some real world detection dog. Just something fun, for us to do together, that she enjoys and is good at. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Katie Finlay said:


> She could just continue detection work for fun on carpet.


Do u know if the nose work trials (the birch ones) are in different locations? I know many are outside. Just wondering if I would run into an issue if they decide to do an indoor warehouse type thing. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This.
> 
> Kristi says in one of her posts she's just looking for something for the dog to do to keep it busy and "take the edge off" (my words) so she'll be easier to live with. So what's the harm in trying to train the dog for detection, even if it's just birch scent, and trying to help the dog get over it's issues with slick floors?
> 
> ...


Thanks! I do think part of it is visual. The shiny gleam. We played tug with her ball on a string today on our linoleum. (I don't usually do this indoors) She slipped around while playing, jumping up on me etc. no issue. I'm hoping I can use that in new locations. If the fear doesn't squash the drive. I'm going to try the tacky stuff tomorrow on a flooring I know she hates and see how it goes. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

dewon fields said:


> easy fix, she only eats on the slippery floor. You'll have to let go of guilt, and just do it. Hunger will change a dog fast.


I did this in my house. On the tile and even in one bathroom that the floor freaked her out. She quickly got over it, great food drive. But she didn't generalize it.

Have also checked for hair and dremel her nails. They don't touch the floor. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I've tried many of them previously and have gotten her over it in several locations. She used to be weird about our tile, bathroom linoleum, petsmart, Home Depot and parents hardwood and stained concrete. She is over all of them except the stained concrete. Which is the most shiny and slippery of them all. For some reason, Individually I can get her over them. But the next time she runs into a new slippery floor, it's an issue all over again. So I haven't been able to get her from,THIS one slippery floor is ok to ALL slippery floors are ok. Make sense?


There will be no frustration if nose work doesn't work out. I was using it as an example of something she loved to do but couldn't do to an environmental issue, that I was hoping to over come. That's all. She's a pet first and foremost. Hopefully I have clarified the detection issue. 

I will try and get a video of the stained concrete tomorrow. Her arch nemesis. I forgot to take a video on Sunday. 


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

nowework is in a variety of areas, many inside on shiny slippery floors...

I suppose it would be possible to cherry pick venues that might work for your dog. I personally do not think that your dog is likely to just "get over it" and "generalize" this issue, but I have been wrong plenty of times before,. I wish you luck, and of course see absolutely no harm in trying to do the best you can with the dog.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

FYI, in tervs this affliction is called the linoleum gene. Could be a vision problem, although how to check for that is beyond me. 

Laura


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

My detection dog developed a reluctance to anything green when we first got to Afghanistan. Many of the plants over there have small thorns on them, and she decided that green stuff was evil.

I used her drive to get her over this. I took a piece of C4 and a tennis ball out and did a multitude of quick searches in areas with vegetation, keeping her in drive and being sure to reward quickly. I progressively placed the hide further into the vegetation, finally moving into the prickly stuff. She was soon plowing right into areas she would previously avoid.

We repeated this type of training over several days with great results.

You may try a variation of this using drive to source to motivate the dog.

Good luck!

David Winners


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

How old is this dog and what is your reaction to her losing it? A dog disliking something is 1% of the maths, the other 99% comes from the owners reaction to that 1% and determines what happens from there on out.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> A trainer can learn a lot training a dog like this. The dog may not ever become certified or work in the real world, but what's the harm in trying? I think sometimes we loose sight of the fact that many people's dogs are first and formost their pets. The dog isn't going to be gotten rid of so why not work with it?


Why don't more handlers have this attitude?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why don't more handlers have this attitude?


Because people on the interwebs tell them their dog will never get over it and they should quit


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I agree it is great learning, provided the handler does not become blind to the issues and realize the possible impact of trying to work the dog in the real world. It sure makes you appreciate the heck out of one that has the "right stuff" and how much easier they are to train.

Was on a SAR team where the leader had trained one dog and it was truly "the perfect dog"..an amazing animal. He did not have the tools to help the others with issues that someone who had worked through them would.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've learned far more from training with dogs that have certain issues, whatever the sport.

Sometimes the handler has started the dog off on the wrong foot, sometimes the dog is not over confident or has low drive in play, etc. Whatever it is, there is usually something one can do to ensure a certain amount of success so that the handler enjoys working with his dog and the dog in turn enjoys working with the handler.

I remember a White GSD, a nerve-wracked dog but fortunately, a considerate handler. I set up an agility course and led the dog through it and, wherever it succeeded, the handler praised it. No big deal, but the dog gained some confidence and the owner was overjoyed. This is a breed I abhor but doing physical exercises without pressure helped the dog. It would never be a sports dog but the owner had something to build upon.

One of my dog's grandmother would bring the dumbell and spit it out at her owner. This is a challenge I like. I worked with her for a day or two and she brought it to me and sat in front of me. One little sack of raw meat was the answer, withheld until she sat with the dumbell in her mouth. Two weeks later we entered a trial and beat her daughter who had no such inhibitions.

I wish I had such patience with my own dogs :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I agree it is great learning, provided the handler does not become blind to the issues and realize the possible impact of trying to work the dog in the real world. It sure makes you appreciate the heck out of one that has the "right stuff" and how much easier they are to train.
> 
> Was on a SAR team where the leader had trained one dog and it was truly "the perfect dog"..an amazing animal. He did not have the tools to help the others with issues that someone who had worked through them would.


I agree wholeheartedly.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> How old is this dog and what is your reaction to her losing it? A dog disliking something is 1% of the maths, the other 99% comes from the owners reaction to that 1% and determines what happens from there on out.


She just turned one in June. My reaction is not much of anything. If she's on leash, I stop her and slow her down so she can get her footing. I will just stand there an wait until she stops with the claws put squished down stance. Once she relaxes, we walk. Very slowly. As slow as she needs to continue the walk relaxed and not going back to claws out. If there's no leash ill hold her collar and wait until she relaxes, let go and let her follow me out. 

I don't even really talk to her. Just wait it out. Be there to slow her down and keep her relaxed. But not coddle and not get frustrated. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> My detection dog developed a reluctance to anything green when we first got to Afghanistan. Many of the plants over there have small thorns on them, and she decided that green stuff was evil.
> 
> I used her drive to get her over this. I took a piece of C4 and a tennis ball out and did a multitude of quick searches in areas with vegetation, keeping her in drive and being sure to reward quickly. I progressively placed the hide further into the vegetation, finally moving into the prickly stuff. She was soon plowing right into areas she would previously avoid.
> 
> ...


Fantastic! Nice to hear stories with good outcomes  




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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've learned far more from training with dogs that have certain issues, whatever the sport.
> 
> Sometimes the handler has started the dog off on the wrong foot, sometimes the dog is not over confident or has low drive in play, etc. Whatever it is, there is usually something one can do to ensure a certain amount of success so that the handler enjoys working with his dog and the dog in turn enjoys working with the handler.
> 
> ...



I have a couple agility places near me, Great idea, might help build some confidence on different surfaces. Ill call around. 

Didn't make it to my parents do the video today. Another day. 



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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> nowework is in a variety of areas, many inside on shiny slippery floors...
> 
> I suppose it would be possible to cherry pick venues that might work for your dog. I personally do not think that your dog is likely to just "get over it" and "generalize" this issue, but I have been wrong plenty of times before,. I wish you luck, and of course see absolutely no harm in trying to do the best you can with the dog.


Bummer. That's what I was afraid of. I called two places that were closest to me and none have any classes going right now anyways. Thanks for the info. 


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Because people on the interwebs tell them their dog will never get over it and they should quit


hey now 

I am not saying that at all personally..

My doubts lie in the fact that this is not a anomaly or recent quirk that popped up with this dog who is probably 13-15 months old by now and has had this issue ever since the owner can remember.

It is great to be an optimist, but realism has its place too... 

She keeps making statements about generalizing and having it go away for good. I am saying I doubt that will happen, maybe somewhat to soften the blow if she puts in tons of work, and it does not fix it 100%...thats all..

If she is keeping the dog then yes, by all means do what you can to attempt to get the problem fixed as much as possible...but start out with small goals to avoid dissappointment.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> hey now
> 
> I am not saying that at all personally..
> 
> ...


She said from the get-go she's doing detection for fun. She's actively seeking out work her dog enjoys because she's fully aware of her issues and limitations in all areas.

It seems to me she's understood it might not be fixed permanently. But why does that prohibit her and the dog from training detection work for fun? 

Even if she wanted to trial, why can't she enter outdoor-only or carpet-only events? To me that's no different than anyone skipping an IPO trial due to tracking conditions or not entering AKC ob if it's an indoor trial.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Kristi Molina said:


> I too suspect this will be a lifelong issue. But I figured it wouldn't here to come ask more experienced trainers.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 I feel like people are responding before reading the whole thread. Lots of repeats. 


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> She said from the get-go she's doing detection for fun. She's actively seeking out work her dog enjoys because she's fully aware of her issues and limitations in all areas.
> 
> *Yes of course and seems to keep metnioning that the fixes have not generalized in any way, like she hopes they will.*
> 
> ...




I train detection for fun too, not saying she shouldnt at all


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> I feel like people are responding before reading the whole thread. Lots of repeats.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I read everything Kristi, but I also see several references to the fact that it did not generalize, which can give an inclination that there was some expectation that it might have..that is where I was coming from in my statements. 

I still say to try to get the dog hunting and working like a machine, and then maybe when you move to slippery floors the dog wont mind as much, because the gratification in the work and the rewards might help make the dog forget about it.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> I read everything Kristi, but I also see several references to the fact that it did not generalize, which can give an inclination that there was some expectation that it might have..that is where I was coming from in my statements.
> 
> I still say to try to get the dog hunting and working like a machine, and then maybe when you move to slippery floors the dog wont mind as much, because the gratification in the work and the rewards might help make the dog forget about it.


Yes, I was hoping somehow I could get it to. But this thread has been helpful. Some new ideas. I just need some time to get her to some new slippery areas so I can try them out. And this week has been a bit insane. 

If it never goes away, that's ok. E will make it work. Eventually my husband wants to do the whole first floor of the house in stained concrete. That will be interesting. But living on it day to day, 24/7 may make her get over it. That or we will have lots of area rugs, or dog booties. Lol I'll update as soon as I can. 

Thanks again! 


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> Yes, I was hoping somehow I could get it to. But this thread has been helpful. Some new ideas. I just need some time to get her to some new slippery areas so I can try them out. And this week has been a bit insane.
> 
> If it never goes away, that's ok. E will make it work. Eventually my husband wants to do the whole first floor of the house in stained concrete. That will be interesting. But living on it day to day, 24/7 may make her get over it. That or we will have lots of area rugs, or dog booties. Lol I'll update as soon as I can.
> 
> ...


booties, just might work..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kristi Molina said:


> I feel like people are responding before reading the whole thread. Lots of repeats.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Guillty of not absorbing the original post. Training for fun I'd say have at it and good luck! 
Training for real work and I still say I wouldn't do it.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Videos- I'm coaxing her to me for video purposes. Usually I walk with her. 
http://youtu.be/UenaooMvJDo

These floors don't bother her quite as bad, as you can see. 
http://youtu.be/dTL9N0he0DE

And after this one I talked with a co worker for about 15 mins and she eventually relaxed a little and walked around exploring. Also shouldn't have used here when I knew she would probably ignore it under the stress. My bad. http://youtu.be/N8WsMDLfl-E



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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristi Molina said:


> Videos- I'm coaxing her to me for video purposes. Usually I walk with her.
> http://youtu.be/UenaooMvJDo
> 
> These floors don't bother her quite as bad, as you can see.
> ...


which ideas did try out during these sessions?


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

If you can't find those specific sticky products, you can always spray coca cola onto her paws. Many people use it on their dogs when showing indoors on slippery floors.


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> which ideas did try out during these sessions?


None. That was without trying anything. After I played tug with her on the slate an she played fine. In the warehouse/super slippery floors he was more hesitant to play. Wouldn't chase it or go all it but still played a little tug. Didn't get a chance to try the sticky stuff yet. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Ataro Muse said:


> If you can't find those specific sticky products, you can always spray coca cola onto her paws. Many people use it on their dogs when showing indoors on slippery floors.


Interesting! Thanks 


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristi Molina said:


> After I played tug with her on the slate an she played fine. In the warehouse/super slippery floors he was more hesitant to play. Wouldn't chase it or go all it but still played a little tug.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Sounds like there's your answer? Play more tug!
Forget about her chasing the ball or recalling her to you.
You get active with her. Really play vigorous tug. If she is really engaged with you, she'll have less time to worry about the slippery floor?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It doesn't look like a total aversion you see in some dogs. More time spent having fun on the surfaces will hopefully go a long way.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i was a little disappointed in the video clip because i was expecting to see you trying out some of the suggestions that have been provided.

...mostly looked like you were trying to show the problem and that's kinda what i had expected to see. even tho the vids were only a few seconds long, the dog looks bad but not hopeless and looks like it can be built up better

so here is another suggestion...
i think you have other dogs right ?
i'm assuming :
- the other dogs don't have the problem
- all dogs get along 

so take them as a group, on lead, and walk them around on the slippery floor and interact together in the way you would interact any other place.
keep the fearful one away from you (in the middle)
- use the other dogs to help
- watch closely for ANY sign the fearful one is interacting with something besides the slippery surface and reward when it happens

do NOT just leave the dog by itself and try to fight the problem by recalling to you because YOU are not yet rewarding enuff to overcome the floor surface...duh

i'm not a fan of sticky feet solutions and i am a fan of using conflict free drives the dog enjoys to forget there is a problem there rather than isolate and flood it thru at this point ... which probably doesn't make sense but that's the only way i can explain it with words 

the dog doesn't seem to trust you enuff at this point and that is depressing since it looks like a pup looking for a leader

btw, has this one also been corrected for biting at the wrong times ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

more details on the "recalling" thing

have you sat just inside the slippery surface and recalled the dog by first allowing it to get a full head of steam on a non slip surface ?
...which would only allow for the last few steps on the sliding surface 
which should help DEconflict the surface being a factor 

and does the pup recall willingly and fast ?
if not, work on that first ... duh


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> more details on the "recalling" thing
> 
> have you sat just inside the slippery surface and recalled the dog by first allowing it to get a full head of steam on a non slip surface ?
> ...which would only allow for the last few steps on the sliding surface
> ...


unless the dog hits the slicker floor at speed and starts slipping everywhere, then that could be a total disaster in the making, depending.

I like the idea of the group of dogs all together alot more than that one..


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby (and hopefully the OP) 
please re-read what i said about using the "nose drive" when i thought this was a future detection dog
SAME basic technique; just using a different motivator 

of course i wouldn't start this by being ten foot inside the slippery surface so the dog slides into owner like one of those slip'nslides i used as a kid
- i'm talking a couple feet so the front paws feel it when the dog and owner are blissfully reunited ... then move in a bit more

aka : INCREMENTAL desensitizing and counter conditioning

standing on the opposite side and trying to coax the dog thru the gauntlet on its own doesn't seem very effective at this point; regardless of it was only done for the purpose of taking the video

i will believe the pup has a motivated recall when i see it and in the back of my mind i feel there are other issues at work that haven't been discussed yet ... i have worked with a few dogs on this type of perceived phobia and that was the case for me ... so that's what i'm gonna think without ever seeing pup or owner


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rick I am all for the using the drives in the dog, that was my first suggestion, to try to have the dog "working"/hunting as opposed to just going in there for no satisfying reason.

I am sorry but cant get on board your recall strategy personally. You first suggest to work on fast recall. then say to recall dog at a "full head of steam" into slippery floored room, I dont think that is a great idea personally, especially with her sitting only a few feet inside the room. I cannot see how that would not lead to dog slipping personally. How is dog on fast recall gonna stop or slow down without slipping? 

Unless that is your point to have dog come in fast and slip, and then associate that slipping with the good feelings of the "blissful reunion" I dont get it?


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

rick smith said:


> i was a little disappointed in the video clip because i was expecting to see you trying out some of the suggestions that have been provided.
> 
> ...mostly looked like you were trying to show the problem and that's kinda what i had expected to see. even tho the vids were only a few seconds long, the dog looks bad but not hopeless and looks like it can be built up better
> 
> ...


I feel like that could potentially ruin a good recall, no? She loves "here" because it still always equals some kind of reward. I start doing that on a surface she hates and I could see her not wanting to come to me. Talk about trust. I'd rather go with some play and desensitization I think at this point. 

The video was to show the problem. I don't normally drop her off and call her to me. She was on a stay so I could back up enough to get some video. Normally I walk in with her. 

Yes she has been corrected for biting. She's one. She's had some corrections. We also do marker training and a lot of positive reinforcement. What was your point here? There's less of a bond because she's been corrected? 



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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

I only have 2 dogs. The other an young impressionable baby, so that wouldn't work. But I like the idea. Thanks. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

rick smith said:


> i will believe the pup has a motivated recall when i see it and in the back of my mind i feel there are other issues at work that haven't been discussed yet ... i have worked with a few dogs on this type of perceived phobia and that was the case for me ... so that's what i'm gonna think without ever seeing pup or owner


In your opinion, what other issues? If its a bond issue, what is your advice to build and fix that?



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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kristi Molina said:


> Videos- I'm coaxing her to me for video purposes. Usually I walk with her.
> http://youtu.be/UenaooMvJDo
> 
> These floors don't bother her quite as bad, as you can see.
> ...



From what I can see in the video she is insecure and it looks as if she is waiting for the other shoe to drop? She seems hesistant in her movement but also her approach towards you. I can't help feel that somewhere in the past she has had a bad experiance take place on a slick floor and she has taken this with her to every slippery floor she now encounters. It could be the simplest of things that happend, something as simple as her slipping on a slick floor as a pup and your reaction too her at that moment. I'm not saying it was her slipping, it could have been anything and it could have been the smallest of things that you would consider not problematic but it might still have impacted her hard enough to get this behaviour. Reason I also think this is that she keeps looking at you from a distance, turns away, looks back again, as if seeking for confirmation or an answer to her dilemma...

How to solve it tho? He is not extremely poor in his view of slick floors. I would do lots of things that he enjoys training wise on slick floors and see how he takes to it. Bitework perhaps? Starting outside on a grassy or concrete area and holding the dog on the bite, pulling it onto a slick floor inside a building...

Might work, or not... Would be worth a try tho?


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Whatever training approach you take, I would keep his brain occupied with something else. Stay engaged and keep his focus on you or a task, and off the floor. I like using odor for this because it gives the dog a job, engages his nose, and utilizes his hunt. I'm also a detection trainer, so it's well within my comfort zone. Something else may work better for you.

I have had good results keeping the dog in drive and focused on the task, instead of trying to just let the dog figure it out.

David Winners


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> From what I can see in the video she is insecure and it looks as if she is waiting for the other shoe to drop? She seems hesistant in her movement but also her approach towards you. I can't help feel that somewhere in the past she has had a bad experiance take place on a slick floor and she has taken this with her to every slippery floor she now encounters. It could be the simplest of things that happend, something as simple as her slipping on a slick floor as a pup and your reaction too her at that moment. I'm not saying it was her slipping, it could have been anything and it could have been the smallest of things that you would consider not problematic but it might still have impacted her hard enough to get this behaviour. Reason I also think this is that she keeps looking at you from a distance, turns away, looks back again, as if seeking for confirmation or an answer to her dilemma...
> 
> How to solve it tho? He is not extremely poor in his view of slick floors. I would do lots of things that he enjoys training wise on slick floors and see how he takes to it. Bitework perhaps? Starting outside on a grassy or concrete area and holding the dog on the bite, pulling it onto a slick floor inside a building...
> 
> Might work, or not... Would be worth a try tho?


I think I figured out what she kept looking at and why she didn't come to me. There was a fan blowing a black plastic bag on the side of her. Right where she stopped and kept looking when she was coming to me. Normally this wouldn't bother her, but I'm guessing that on top of the slippery floors freaked her out. 


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## Kristi Molina (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks everyone. Lots of good ideas. Exactly what I was hoping for when I posted. 





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