# control and agility mix exersise



## ben litchfield (Nov 8, 2009)

hope you like,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA2fNFFKDCs


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

ben litchfield said:


> hope you like,
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA2fNFFKDCs


Ben,

I don't like it at all :-(

The last video you posted in March
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f12/environmental-agility-work-23388/
she was upbeat and having fun. In this video her ears are tucked back and she looks you beat her. Part of it might be fear of the height but I wouldn't force my dog to do that if that's the kind of reaction I got. Just because she WILL do it, doesn't mean you should make her do it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I'll admit the dog does not look the happiest about being up there. But I would also not say that the dog was "forced" to go up there.

I imagine with time and exposure the dog will become much more confident with it.

I have done a fair bit of confidence building and handler trust exercises with various forms of "agility" with quite a few dogs, I'll stand by the method, it can produce pretty amazing results, even though some of them at first are often very uncomfortable, some even terrified I would say.

The US army uses confidence obstacle courses all the time, I would think that many of the people are pretty scared doing some of them.

There is something to be said about overcoming fears of certain things.

I used to be terrified of heights myself, and have gone on plenty of roller coasters, ladders, scaffolds, trees, roofs, etc.. just last week I climbed up about 1/2 way into a 100 foot pine tree to cut it down spent some time in the bucket of a large backhoe raised to full height to trim some trees, and take out some hornets nests (which are also pretty scary)..hell I even went ziplining last year and was 200 ft off the ground... I still am very cautious of heights, and slightly uncomfortable, but not even close to being terrified as I once was...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My biggest concern is that I would be underneath a dog doing this during training. There was a slight bit of stumble when the dog turned around. Otherwise, go for it!


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## ben litchfield (Nov 8, 2009)

thomas,a no point in the clip is my dog physically forced to do anything.there is no line on her no e-collar etc.i cant argue the fact that she is happy up there because its on the clip for all to see she isn't,however and this is the most important part for me,she does it because i ask her to.as a dog man yourself im sure you can imagine the rest of the day we had at work together because i was so happy with the effort she put in for me.all the foundation work i put in with her to build her confidence up to achieve things like this is now paying off for me.what i will comment on also is there seems to be two very distinct camps on the clip, a few making the type of comments like you made and the other camp who all seem to be in the working industry who very much liked the clip.one comment read "all leo's should work to achieve this much trust and bonding between dog and handler".thomas thankyou for your post but ill stick to doing what im doing.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

DOESN'T matter what i do for a living dog wise ... i tend to be in Thomas's "camp" .... since you seem to want to draw a line there 

IF i had seen this clip first i would understand some of the reluctance and lack of confidence when your dog went up there and praise you for the "foundation" you have laid, etc etc 
.... and OF COURSE i saw it was off lead ](*,)

...BUT i saw the table retrieve clip first :-( .... a CLEAR clip of a dog who has probably had a lot of compulsion laid on it; otherwise it wouldn't have slinked back with its head low and ears pinned ... the 17 sec point is a pretty good point to see this demonstrated
----- THAT was crystal clear to anyone with any dog sense. if you disagree please state why 
----- didn't look like a PSD and that's why i also asked if it was a PSD ](*,)

i would much rather a dog jump up on that table and knock everything off to EAGERLY grab the keys and charge back to me with ears held high than do it your "foundation" way

you got a nice dog but it would be even better if you could motivate it to ENJOY more of your foundation work, rather than do it because she HAS to

...hope you can understand my simple point whether it's what you want to read or not 
...good luck with her


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ben do you really think a dog connects yr happiness throughout the day with what it did earlier, i believe it is no more capable of that then identifying yr unhappiness hours later for a bad performance. Thats all just sumthin you made up yrself for yrself, has nothing to do with whats in the dogs head imo.

If anything it sees you tense around the obstacle and happy away from it, connect those dots.

Marker training 101, less than a second for a horse about 2 seconds for a dog or its an unrelated évent.

Nice accomplishment tho, all just my unskilled opinion.


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## ben litchfield (Nov 8, 2009)

your right there is a lot of compulsion in my training,and so far its working well,having won the ukppda over here in december just gone.of course that will mean nothing to you.with regards to the keys,it has taken me a long time to have her retrieve keys.most objects she was fine with however i had real avoidance issues with a set of keys.she would pick up an 18inch scaffold pole full of concrete but not a set of keys. as you can see we are not only retrieving keys but we are pushing the exercise aswell.there are always going to be people like yourselves that dont like to see dogs work like this,ears down etc but i dont mind as long as i balance out the rest of the day with fun.

http://youtu.be/1S8gELjrFW0

go back to this clip of ears up happy dog training,not a single test for the dog not a question asked of its abilities just fun.maybe this is why the gsd is in the state its in today.](*,)i spent 15 years in the army having myself pushed and tested all the time,it made me a better soldier in the long run.i have the same attitude with my dogs.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Yeah you people....dam public forums, all these opinions.


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## ben litchfield (Nov 8, 2009)

peter,sorry no i dont think that and i apologize if thats what i put across.what i meant was as you can see from the clip the dog is unhappy but doing it anyway,therefore i wouldnt want to put the dog under that same sort of pressure/stress again for the rest of the day.for me its about balancing it out.i dont mind having my dog under that sort of pressure for a short time but not long term.for me to carry on with that exercise until she was happy and then film it would not have achieved what i wanted to,a)too much stress for too long b)i wanted to test the relationship of me and my dog by asking her to do something she didnt want to do,something at distance so i couldnt force her to do it.it had to be a question of the relationship between us.that was the first clip taken and the only one,what you see is what happened not a finished training session.and for the rest of the day i made sure there was no more pressure.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Hey man i think you got a great dog that will put its own anxiety aside just to please you for sure, i couldnt do that much. 

I just think the complete picture isnt there yet and folks here might bring another perspective as outside observers if u want honesty not cheerleading, this is civvy life we dont get told our opinions.


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## ben litchfield (Nov 8, 2009)

you make me smile,i guess its your way or no way at all.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm just tryin to learn.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ben

"fifteen years in the Army" explains a lot. You train your dog like the Military trains theirs. Start out with a hundred and wind up with ten when you're finished. Training GSD's like you train yours is going to do jack shit about "improving the breed". Based on the videos that you posted. Your dog's attitude has deteriorated over the past few months. If you're OK with that or haven't noticed because WTF you're the UKPPDA "Champion" now?
I feel sorry for your dog :-(

Look at some Gary Garner and Xena video
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/xena-5-years-old-some-mwd-training-22948/
That's what a female GSD PSD should look like !


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Watch her walking up to the crane.......


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Mary Buck said:


> Watch her walking up to the crane.......


she looks like a shelter dog that's given up on life


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

OMG....

I am pretty surprised (not sure why) by some of the posts in this thread.

It is a 2 minute video, of the dog doing something it is not comfortable with, a dog that is not in drive, not getting geeked with a toy. 

It is not an agility sport dog, it is not a dog that is a competition dog in function that is being trained to impress people with its training, and how happy it looks every minute of the day. 

Have you guys ever required your dog do do things that it might not want to do? out of "drive". Is it a requirement now that a working dog needs to be 100% happy every minute of its life? and only do things that it wants to do? 

I could shoot a video of my dog working in the pouring rain, and appear to be loving it, easy take a tug or ball, get her geeked and go out, the dog will be focused on me and the reward, respond quickly and happily and will appear to love working in the pouring rain. Put a guy in a bitesuit or sleeve in the rain, dogs works great, looks great...play some hide and find games in the rain, the dog LOVES it...

The dog really does NOT like to go out in the pouring rain though in all actuality, you should see what she looks like when I command her to go out into the pouring rain to do her business. Pathetic, you would think I beat the crap out of the dog, but I demand that she does it, cause I will be damned if I am gonna go out with her and play with her in the pouring rain, everytime I want HER to go out and take a dump. I will also be damned if the dog thinks I should come out with a nice big umbrella for her, that she might melt if she gets wet.

Same dog, loves to go in her crate, will run right in there, happy as hell when I am playing with her, and if it is feeding time, or times that she thinks she will come out soon after, or she is really tired from playing but boy, when it is bed time, and time for her to just go in the crate for the night, or times when I put her away when company is over and she finds a new person to pet her for an hour, you would think I was sending her into the pits of hell.

OMG you should see how beaten down and pathetic she looks when I decide I have had enough of her climbing or laying on me for me to pet her, and tell her OFF, or to lay go down on the floor, you would swear I just kicked her in the gut or something.

So the comments range from people being sad for the dog, to it looking like a shelter dog that has given up on life, cause it does not look happy enough doing something it is required to do.

Thomas apparently can tell that the dogs attitude has deteriorated in the last few months, based on a 2 minute video of the dog doing something it was not comfortable with, with nothing to compare it too, except another super short video of the dog doing something it does like to do more. He can also tell that because the guy was in the military, that he trains his dogs like they do in the UK military, because he is very familiar with the UK military dog training methods. And he apparently has the authority to determine what a police dog "should" look like.

Then Rick wants to see the dog blasting happily around ears high retrieving things the dog has shows avoidance to retrieving. 

And everyone is sad, cause the dog does things it is not comfortable doing, and listens to its handler. Well guess what, dogs have to do stuff all the time that they dont want to do, and not every training systems has the time to devote to training the way some people do, and some handlers work their dogs the way they are told to by the people coaching them, and do not do a bunch of outside training. And the main requirement is that the dog will do what is asked of it, and be proficient at its job, it is not a requirement that the dog appears to be happy every minute of every day.

I am sure the dog is fine, and happy, even though it might not like to do everything it is required to do, just like most everyone elses dog.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby,

Reading a dog isn't all that hard. The dog is stressed in the video in the first post AND in the retrieve video. People choose what video's to post. I don't buy the excuse that the video THEY POSTED now all of a sudden isn't how the dog acts most of the time. It's simple, compare the video of Ben and Heidi to Gary and Xena


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> Reading a dog isn't all that hard. The dog is stressed in the video in the first post AND in the retrieve video. People choose what video's to post. I don't buy the excuse that the video THEY POSTED now all of a sudden isn't how the dog acts most of the time. It's simple, compare the video of Ben and Heidi to Gary and Xena


Ok so the dog is showing signs of stress, anyone can see that, it is not hard to see, in these videos, so that means to you that the dog's ( a dog youve never met) attitude has deteriorated over the last few months? That is ridiculous to me, unless you have a 6th sense.

Since when is never showing signs of stress in training a requirement? for any type of working dog?

lots of dogs show all kinds of stress signs, hell my dog stresses herself, creates her own stress. pretty much thrives on stress from what I can tell...

I get what everyone WANTS to see in videos and dogs working, and everyone has a right to say how they feel about what they are seeing, but it is also not a requirement that dogs cannot be worked in manners that are stressful to them. Stressful situations that are overcome, only build confidence. 

I also get that people dont like to see signs in a dog that has had compulsion and corrections in the training, but guess what, most dogs do get that in their training, that are expected to do things consistently in certain functions.

The funniest part of this entire exchange is that you brought up Gary Garner and Xena, comparing the two dogs. Even stating that you think that police dogs should be like Xena, like that is some kind of standard.When it is quite possible that neither Ben's or Gary's dogs are police dogs.

Xena is NOT a Police dog. She is Gary's personal pet dog. 

Although I do like Xena alot, to expect that police or service dogs have to perform like her in the OB and agility is kinda nutty.

It is obvious that Gary has a very very special bond with the dog, and loves her very much, and has put major major amounts of time and love into training her to do a variety of things. He seems to truly love the dog and training her, the dog is probably a huge part of his life and family, he probably lives and breathes that dog, and dreams about training her. But to expect every police dog handler, or even dog owner to put that amount of time and effort into a dog that is only required to do its job, and is not even thier dog., is WAY out there Thomas.

I am not even sure if Ben's dog IS a police dog, he has not said that outright that I can see. He said he is in the security industry, and has tested his dog in the UKPPDA, which although aims to test dogs for Patrol and Protection qualities, is not a police entity, I dont think, same as the BSPCA that Gary competed in, but I could be wrong. He has Police K9 in his profile, which could mean he is training his dogs to become police k9, or that they are actually Police K9's. I am sure he can clarify that...

And before you jump all over the guy for that, think of Gary, who put the prefix K9 in front of his dog's name in over 70 videos.. K9 Xena. His videos made almost everyone, you and me included, assume his dog was a Police K9...hell he even did MWD training with her


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'd like to clarify why i posted....

the first clip of the retrieve was flat out NOT impressive, but i don't remember reading any "disclaimers" or background explanations given when he posted it. i can't find the post so i can't check for sure
- anyway, i posted .... i even inquired if the dog was like that always 
THEN i saw the next clip and understood why the dog was acting like that and posted again ...
- but the only response was something to the effect that "we" don't know dogs and his PSD won a competition that "we" wouldn't understand the significance of :-(((

...only LATER, in another post, did he explain the retrieve session by saying :
"with regards to the keys,it has taken me a long time to have her retrieve keys.most objects she was fine with however i had real avoidance issues with a set of keys."
- had he said that to BEGIN with, when he first posted the clip, i would have understood why he was so happy that he could finally get the dog up there and bring his keys back
- but he DIDN'T :-(((((

i am ALL for adding stressful sessions to build trust and confidence and pushing a dog to do things they don't want to do, etc etc
but .... 
re:"Then Rick wants to see the dog blasting happily around ears high retrieving things the dog has shows avoidance to retrieving."
-- please DON'T put words in my mouth that were never there !!

but since you did  sure i'd like to see that 

if he really IS making progress building confidence, we should soon see the sequel video of the key retrieval off a table with a dog who eagerly jumps up and retrieves em with ears UP rather than slink back with his ears pinned like a house pet who got caught counter surfing .... 
...can't wait to see it  ... 
..... that WOULD be a measure of progress, right Ben ???


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Ok so the dog is showing signs of stress, anyone can see that, it is not hard to see, in these videos, so that means to you that the dog's ( a dog youve never met) attitude has deteriorated over the last few months? That is ridiculous to me, unless you have a 6th sense.
> 
> >I don't need a 6th sense. I just use one of the first five and
> >look at the video Ben posted in March and the two he just
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> i'd like to clarify why i posted....
> 
> the first clip of the retrieve was flat out NOT impressive, but i don't remember reading any "disclaimers" or background explanations given when he posted it. i can't find the post so i can't check for sure
> - anyway, i posted .... i even inquired if the dog was like that always
> ...


I get you Rick. sorry bout that. 

This type of thing has a way of getting out of hand, when people post videos. Snowballs, and then people stop posting, all because people like to make assumptions and declarations about other peoples dogs, and thier training. That is why I try to thanks EVERYONE for posting, I like to watch videos...and it is cool to see people on here with their dogs...

Sure he did not give much info, probably didnt think he had to..
He probably did not realize he was jumping into a shark tank, filled with people that are obsessed with critiquing every aspect of everything shown. People that are highly experienced in the training of the minute aspects of performances that will be judged in 1/2 point increments on there preciseness. Not every dog owned by people that post here is a sport dog or an AKC Obedience competition dog...

more and more people that seem to think a dog showing minor signs of stress is like the coming of the fricking anti-christ, and that the dogs are so mistreated, cause their ears are pinned, or they lick their chops.

I hosted 5 PP OB and PP events, I had tough judging on control and positions.

In functional OB, flair, 100% focus and precision, flash and style are not requirements, the dog performing the tasks asked of it is what matters. That being said, it is always nice to see all that, and in my competitions dogs that did everything correctly with all the extra bells and whistles were placed over dogs that showed more signs of stress or less precision, if everything else was equal. Of course no ones likes watching a dog that is just a mess, is totally unhappy, or slinking around with its tail between its legs, but c'mon, does the dog really look that bad people?

here is another of Ben's videos. Dog shows some minor signs of stress there too, and dips low on the retrieve, but his overall functional performance looked pretty good to me. call me crazy.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAj7rQtUsM0&feature=channel&list=UL

People should remember that not everyone feels that certain things are as important in their training, as it is to them.

I know it is hard to keep that in mind, it is hard for me too..I still cant understand why some people doing bitework in a suit don't place more importance on the power, the dog controlling and dominating the decoy, and really trying to crunch down on the guy inside the suit and thoroughly punish him. That is important to me, that is impressive to me, but not to some, because it is not necessary for what they are doing, or it may make it more difficult in other aspects of their training, or they just dont find that very impressive over other things...to me it I almost view it as a training flaw when I see it, it is instinctive, and I have to always think that it must just not be important to that person, I dont just start posting about how crappy I think the bitework is...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby

Ben posted a video and said "hope you like?" I didn't and said why. You're the one that seems worried about someone else dog and someone else opinion of the dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

OMG...now I feel like Lou all the sudden..




> >I don't need a 6th sense. I just use one of the first five and
> >look at the video Ben posted in March and the two he just
> >posted.


Did you see the one he posted to youtube, in December of 2011, showing the same minor signs of stress? I did, it is obvious to me that the dog has not went trough any drastic changes since then. And that he really enjoyed jumping and climbing on that stuff in the March video more than some other things.



> lots of dogs show all kinds of stress signs, hell my dog stresses herself, creates her own stress. pretty much thrives on stress from what I can tell...
> 
> *>I bet your dogs does. Which is probably why you're defending
> >Ben's training. It's what you do too*


I am defending Ben as a person, who is training his dog to his own standards of performance, and stating that what I am seeing is not heartbreaking to me. You actually do not have any clue, what Ben or myself do while training our dogs, you have seen short videos of the dogs in question, and have made assumptions, based on what you see in them. Ben's methods do not need any defense, his dog is doing what is asked of it.



> >Great, I'll wait for the next video where Heidi retrieves keys
> >and climbs up on that crane thing with her ears up and her
> >tail wagging. Kind of like she was doing back in March


That may never happen, and if it doesnt, who cares. I will wait for the video of your dog climbing on a crane happily..



> I also get that people dont like to see signs in a dog that has had compulsion and corrections in the training, but guess what, most dogs do get that in their training, that are expected to do things consistently in certain functions.
> 
> *>Nonsense, the idea that only compulsion guarantees reliable
> >performance has been proven false many times*
> ...





> Although I do like Xena alot, to expect that police or service dogs have to perform like her in the OB and agility is kinda nutty.
> 
> *>So you have low expectations and think that standards should
> >be lower for PSD's then for pets?*


I think the standards and expectations should be what they are, to ensure the dogs function reliably, whether it is a PSD or a Pet, there are not requirements more important than that, that is of more importance than whether the dog is 100% happy doing everything you want it to.



> It is obvious that Gary has a very very special bond with the dog, and loves her very much, and has put major major amounts of time and love into training her to do a variety of things. He seems to truly love the dog and training her, the dog is probably a huge part of his life and family, he probably lives and breathes that dog, and dreams about training her. But to expect every police dog handler, or even dog owner to put that amount of time and effort into a dog that is only required to do its job, and is not even thier dog., is WAY out there Thomas.
> 
> *>We're not talking about "every police dog handler" We're
> >talking about Ben and Heidi compared to Gary and Xenia
> ...


SO you now know every method that was used in training both of these dogs? you are actually saying that Ben uses compulsion only, and that Gary uses only "motivation". ? have you ever met either person, or there dogs?

I can certainly see a difference, just like you, it is not that important to me if Ben's dog does not look super happy doing everything he does. 



> >Once again ....... it doesn't matter. Forget about labels and
> >look at both dogs.


I did. Both dogs look like their training is paying off for them to me.




Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> Ben posted a video and said "hope you like?" I didn't and said why. You're the one that seems worried about someone else dog and someone else opinion of the dog.


I am not worried, just didnt agree with you mostly and thought it was pretty extreme, you're apparent worry that he was forcing his dog to do something, and your persistant worry that the dogs ears are not up, when that is not of any major importance, the dog is not shitting on itself Thomas, or crawling on its belly with its tail between its legs... it will be ok...he even uses a toy to reward the dog, so dont worry so much about it...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i wonder if we will ever see or hear from Ben again??


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i wonder if we will ever see or hear from Ben again??



I just figured Joby has taken on the job of speaking for Ben and Ben didn't need to bother posting anymore.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

The only thing I don't like about the video is the slinking she does while "heeling". Don't give a crap about her ears back, especially up there. My own dog would take a hell of a lot more encouragement to get up there and probably be shaking the crane while he did it. A good exercise in trust for dog/handler.

No reason for the slinking though, unless she had JUST gotten her ass kicked for heeling??? If she did then she'll come out of it just fine. If this is normal for her then there is something missing from training. Who cares about the ears?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I am not really sure why Thomas would want people to compare Ben's dog to Xena, aside from the fact that they are both female GSD's...

I just thought Ben should be able to see footage of Thomas' performance. Since he is new here and probably was not aware of the video. As Thomas was pretty harshly critical of Ben's methods, even reminding ME that it is proven that his methods are better than the methods that he "thinks" Ben uses.

I will refrain from giving my opinion on overall Obedience and Control consistency displayed, because I am not like Thomas and dont try to compare things that are vastly different. 

I will say is that Ben's dog looks like he is not at 100% enthusiam in his trial footage and Thomas' dog *does* appear to be more enthusiastic, although also showing subtle signs of stress in the form of yawning and licking. I will also say that I think that Thomas' dog should be more like K9 Xena as well.

Ben at UKPPDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAj7rQtUsM0&feature=channel&list=UL

Thomas at MR trial
http://vimeo.com/24302445


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby

The difference is Ben posted his own video and invited comments.
You posted my video and made comments. Which makes YOU a POS in my opinion. I"m done with this topic and you


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" I will also say that I think that Thomas' dog should be more like K9 Xena as well."


I think ALL our dogs should be more like Xena! She's one super happy, confident ass kicker. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ...I think ALL our dogs should be more like Xena! She's one super happy, confident ass kicker. :wink:


Xena is a good example to hold up, for sure!

JMO


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## ben litchfield (Nov 8, 2009)

sorry for my non involvement since my last post,i was on shift as a security dog handler not police.this will be my last post as i cannot afford to try and train in a way that pleases everybody its just not possible.i have had more positive feedback about this clip than negative so im happy with that over all.however as someone who takes on peoples comments and tries to learn i contacted the trainer i do most of my training with.i spoke to him with regards to gary and zena,and he speaks with some authority as he had a lot to do with zena as he is good friends with gary(the trainers name is john davidson).i will not go into depth but im happy with the outcome of the chat.what i will say is,if you cannot see why my dog would be stressed on top of a cherry picker and zena wouldn't be running up a flat a frame to bite a suit then how can we have a conversation.i have never been anything but impressed with gary and zena's clips but if you watch we are trying to work the dogs in different disciplines,if you watch there isn't one physical blow that lands on zena etc etc.i have the open mindedness to say gary is doing nothing wrong at all in fact i would say its brilliant training for what he requires its just not for me.i wont be posting any more clips here,its not that im running scared its just why would i put clips up that people dont appreciate because they train a different discipline from me.i wish you all the best in your training -ben


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