# Hey Cops! Dogs & Home Security



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Today I watched a 2-hour documentary on the BTK killer on MSNBC. It was a compelling and fascinating story. For those who don't know, BTK was a serial killer that targeted women who lived alone. There was no mention of any of the numerous victims owning a dog. 

Many times I've heard stories on the news of children being abducted from their own home by a stranger or a woman getting raped in her own bed. It seems I never hear any mention of a dog so I assume that the people didn't own one. 

Conversely, I cannot recollect ever hearing of someone being victimized that had a working-type dog in the home. 

Countless times I've thought to myself "If they only had a dog that wouldn't have happened". Don't get me wrong, a dog isn't going to protect you against a committed criminal who happens to know that you have $50K in cash under your bed. But it seems, and this is certainly no revelation to this forum, that working-type dogs have tremendous deterrent power against random, opportunity seeking criminals. 

While I certainly invite anyone and everyone to give feedback, I am most interested in the opinions of our LEO's and their experiences and opinions on civilians owning pet or even working line GSD's, Dobermans, Rottweillers, etc. and their benefit in deterring crime. 

Thanks in advance!


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

I bring at least one dog to work with me evey day. I work at an construction company in an industrial park. Lots of expensive equipment in the shop and in the yard. People come in all day and many a time I am asked if the dogs stay there at night in which I always respond yes.

Every business in our area has been broken into at least once. Except us. We had one incident in our yard one weekend but am fairly certain that that was an ex employee.

Probably doesn't hurt that I do ob in the parking lot evey day also. The dogs are very visible.

While most of our employees are very nice we have had a few scary ones here and there. I like having a dog there when they pick up their last paycheck, often it is just my sec. and myself in the office. More then once they have come into the office in a rage and settled right down when the dog comes out and sits at my side.


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## Guest (May 26, 2008)

Common themes regarding robberies and home invasions:

-Drug buyers who see what kinda cash/drugs/ is kept at their dealer's place, or on their dealer
-Dealers who "rob" their buyers, or set them up to be robbed
-Inside jobs re: construction thefts. "Scaffolding was right there. I swear I locked the door. No forced entry, eh? Hmmm...strange."

Batteries:

-Groups of like minded young males acting stupid
-Groups of like minded idiots of any age and persuasion acting stupid at alcohol establishments

Sex crimes:

-Someone who has gained some degree of trust, long or short term.

Burglaries:
-Cars left in driveways (often the dog barks so much the owners don't even care anymore...count me in)

My sibling works in the maximum security male section of the largest county jail in the country, and browses files of her inmates. She corroborates this. If you run with the right crowd, you are boringly safe.

So...are we still talking about Lindberg babies and such? If so, it just doesn't happen very often, least of all to any degree where I can comment on the relevance of a dog.

Although, didn't Nicole Brown Simpson have an akita? 8-[


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> Common themes regarding robberies and home invasions:
> 
> -Drug buyers who see what kinda cash/drugs/ is kept at their dealer's place, or on their dealer
> -Dealers who "rob" their buyers, or set them up to be robbed
> ...


I don't participate in any of the above mentioned aether I have a sign on my back gate with a picture of a GSD saying I Watch Here to warn the meter man or cable guy that I have a dog that is probably loose in the back when I'm home.
Dang you mentioned the Lindburg baby they never caught that guy I live in Minneapolis/Murderapolis maybe I should be more concerned.:-s
I'm not making fun of people who have ligament reasons so have a dog. Ya do what ya godda do.
I get a kick out the guy that lives in the burbs works at Best Buy lives a nice quiet normal life but has 7000.00 home security system 2 blood thirsty dogs whirling around every time someone walks past the house and has to strap on there hog leg when they take the family to the moves or goes to work.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I believe a large dog will make the average thug look for some place easier. Often times though, people that gain a sense of security from having a large dog, are fooling themselves. More often than not, the dog would easily be defeated with nothing more than a bluff or a juicy tidbit of food. Training in a particular protection venue does add a bit more security, depending of course on the dog and the training recieved. It's no accident drug dealers and manufacturers prefer Pittie, 10 to 1 over any other breed. Even those though, once the flash bang goes off, are gone, gone. 

DFrost


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

David Frost said:


> It's no accident drug dealers and manufacturers prefer Pittie, 10 to 1 over any other breed.


Interesting you say that, because I was always told pits were not very good as a guard or protection dog, being bred to be non-aggressive to humans. I thought the reason for so many pits was the dogfighing connection to drug dealing...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't disagree that they aren't all that good at protection. It's the perception they are going after.

DFrost


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

A friend who lives in the neighborhood told me this story. 

About 15 years ago, their house was broken into. They are a retired couple and home most of the time, so whoever did it had to have watched for a while to pick a time when they were both gone. They had two medium-sized pointy-eared barky dogs. The robbers brought ammonia and clubs. The dogs were unharmed only because they were "lovable mutts" and were thrilled to welcome anyone who came to visit... Altogether the robbers didn't get much, some cash and jewelry I believe, but they went through the whole house ripping things apart searching. so caused quite a bit of damage.

Not saying a dog isn't a good deterrent, but there's no stopping someone who is really determined to get in.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Not saying a dog isn't a good deterrent, but there's no stopping someone who is really determined to get in.


That's true Anna. Of course, it's also true of other security measures too. One can have a security system, guns and dogs but if a serious and capable criminal knows that you keep $50K in cash in your home, they can overcome those obstacles too. 

As was mentioned above most of it has to deal with where one lives, with whom they associate and things of that nature. 

How many working-type dog owners have been the victims of violence in their own home? I'm sure it's happened, but I can't ever recall hearing of it happening. While the chances were minute before, having a dog like most of us have seems to reduce our chances of being the victim of a RANDOM violent act in our own home to virtually zero.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

My views are based on a dozen years as a UK cop, attending burglary scenes and also speaking with burglary offenders/criminals. In addition, personal security and associated subjects are a bit of a pastime for me.

Firstly, the criminal is after a weak target. A home with nobody there, one in darkness, one where they can't be overlooked/seen, that has insecure doors or windows..
Perhaps one which allows people to see inside, at their TVs, stereos, antiques, painting etc etc..

So anything that makes the job more difficult is going to slide down the 'to do list'... 

One of those things are dogs..

It's not necessarily the fact that a dog might bite - as many wont bite. It's the noise and mayhem that a dog causes. The burglar wants to work unnoticed and un-investigated. So a barking dog, attracts attention - normally from someone who goes round simply to tell the dog to shut up - as opposed to really expecting an intruder to be there.

To this end, any sign/notice that a dog lives at the premise is a good idea - and can't prevent crime, before it even starts.

The usefulness of a dog also depends on who exactly we're trying to keep out. If it's your average burglar, most dogs will do the job fine. However, if it's a determined burglar, who really wants what is in your house - you might have a problem. Same with a determined attacker, rapist or stalker.

Dogs can be dealt with by a whole number of methods, from poisons, to stabbings. Even bizarre methods have worked in the past; a couple that springs to mind was the introduction of a bitch in season into a yard - which kept the guard dogs busy whilst the house was emptied.

So, at the end of the day - a dog left alone, is only as good as how easily dettered the burglar is.

Now, on the other hand - the Personal Protection Dog is a different story. The usefulness of a dog, whilst you're present is a much higher security product. A property trained PPD, will work well with you alongside - both in encouragement role and also your own protection of the dog. For example, if your dog bites the burglar, mugger, rapist - your job isn't simply to stand and watch, but instead to also attack the offender, thus backing up your dog, who might actually be fighting for it's life.

On the subject of PPDs, the appearance of a dog can have as much effectiveness as it's actual ability. For example, a large untrained Rottweiller looks a more formidable animal to an attacker than a properly training 65pound Malinois. However, if push comes to shove, we all know which particular dog we'd have on our side. (This is not breed specific, you can substitute Rottweiler for long coated GSD if you wish - you know what I mean). 

There have been many occasions were lone women out walking, running etc with their dogs (often in remote areas) have been attacked, raped and even murdered - whilst their dogs have stood by and watch, or have ran around barking, but not doing anything more.

My personal take on the ownership of a trained dog, and in the way most people on this forum train their dogs is this. If your dog wont protect you, in your hour of need, it's simply an animal that you water, feed and exercise.

Stay safe people

Gary


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Countless times I've thought to myself "If they only had a dog that wouldn't have happened". Don't get me wrong, a dog isn't going to protect you against a committed criminal who happens to know that you have $50K in cash under your bed. But it seems, and this is certainly no revelation to this forum, that working-type dogs have tremendous deterrent power against random, opportunity seeking criminals.
> 
> While I certainly invite anyone and everyone to give feedback, I am most interested in the opinions of our LEO's and their experiences and opinions on civilians owning pet or even working line GSD's, Dobermans, Rottweillers, etc. and their benefit in deterring crime.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Why would you think that "working dogs" and for this I mean the well known working dog, in Europe that is:
GSDs, Belgian Shepherds, Giant Schnauzers, Rottweilers, Airedales, etc. would be more willing or able to protect you than other breeds? Working dog doesn't say much about the character of the dog. I had a Landseer that would have protected me to his death, I think (never proved). We had two JRTs who protected my father once, it turned out to be an error, unfortunately, but, the bitch built like a cat, sprang up to the throat of the "would-be" assailant and the dog "built like a corgi" went for his legs.

I have a GSD that would attack anyone who would attack him (so I think I would stand behind him). 

What I want to say, most healthy and well balanced dogs would protect their owner - it's natural, or not??????

Welcome to crticism......

Gillian


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, Patrick, I tend to read diagonally and didn't sse the mention of "pet dogs".


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's me again - can't seem to stop this evening.

I have a number of dog sports friends who are in the police force and learned from them that they got hold of a plan of a residential area with the houses/apartment blocks where dogs were kept "marked".

On a ligher note, we wer marked down as:

"two dog household with monster tomcat" and two-legged bitch"

Gillian


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks Gillian.

Is anyone aware of any PPD dog owner who was the victim of a violent crime or break-in at their home? If so, what happened? 

I don't know of any and my guess is that's because it virtually never happens.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Perception is a big thing. There have been burgleries in my neighborhood recently. The association thinks, because we live in a gated community, it's an inside job meaning people who live in the neighborhood. 

A neighbor four houses down was broken into and they said they felt safe because of their rottie (a big fat and lazy one...I'm talking tabletop fat btw) but they always bragging about how nice he is and they bring it around the block and let people pet him and play with him. Good for the dog, good for the breed and good for the theif. Who ever broken in, locked the dog in the bathroom.

My next door neighbor has remarked about her yard gate being unlatched twice in the past two months. She thought maybe it was me.

I've had no issues and I think it's because I don't let ANYBODY pet my Rotts. Only one of them is bite trained, another is a typical ill-bred american Rottie with bad hips and wouldn't hurt a fly and the other has fear agression issues so she always has a muzzle on when she's out of my house. Around the neighborhood, everybody knows that I train dogs and I tell everybody all of my rotts are bite trained. 

I had no issues with a few home invasion sessions where my dog was fighting with the helper in the middle of my front yard or street. I know everybody talks about it and it's only helping the pereception that my house isn't to be messed with. Would my dog bite an intruder? Maybe and I would be a fool to depend on a dog that's not fully trained. I remember the first session in the house, he looked at the helper and even with the sleeve, he cocked his head as if to say "I don't bite people in the house". He's on a hidden sleeve now ;~>

To me, word of mouth is much better than a Beware of Dog sign. Thieves generally are not stupid people.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Totally agree with the perception thing, I see it with my two watchdogs all the time... Everyone picks my dear neurotic Inka as the "tough dog" because she is black, faintly pitbull-ish in appearance, aloof, growls, and initially looks serious - but she'll tuck tail and run if someone simply walks through the gate. My nice dog, Candy, the assistance-trained one who will roll over for belly rubs and kiss up to peope when I let her, is the one more likely to bite someone who tries to walk in unannounced. 

Also, while most avreage people I meet on the street don't have a clue what Mals are, the people who do matter absolutely recognise them as "police dogs" - go figure...

If some stranger asks if my dogs bite, I reply "Yes, if I tell them to."

I'm not counting on any of them to protect me, but projecting the right "image" can't hurt


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> A neighbor four houses down was broken into and they said they felt safe because of their rottie (a big fat and lazy one...I'm talking tabletop fat btw) but they always bragging about how nice he is and they bring it around the block and let people pet him and play with him. Good for the dog, good for the breed and good for the theif. Who ever broken in, locked the dog in the bathroom.


Well, I guess that sort of counts as one.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> If some stranger asks if my dogs bite, I reply "Yes, if I tell them to."
> 
> I'm not counting on any of them to protect me, but projecting the right "image" can't hurt


That's exactly what I say! \\/


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

If I'm home all I want from my dog is 8 seconds warning. I'll handle the rest. If I'm not home, that's what insurance is for.

DFrost


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

David Frost said:


> If I'm home all I want from my dog is 8 seconds warning. I'll handle the rest. If I'm not home, that's what insurance is for.
> 
> DFrost


8 seconds what takes you so long, I can have my s&w 40 locked and loaded in 5 seconds flat. 


I think also alot of times we, meaning those who bite train dogs overlook the rumors that can cause a serious deterent to anyone looking to break in by doing a few bite sessions in public view. When I bought a track house in a bad neighborhood a few years back 2 bite seesions in the front yard and I was the guy with the crazy attack trained dogs. One day 8 out of 9 houses in a row were burgularized in the middle of teh day when everyone was at work. The crooks went right down the line breakibg fence boards going yard to yard but broke out in to the backside along a canal and went around my house. 


Another thing I wanted to say is that I do not believe an untrained tested dog will truly be able to defend its owner. I have worked dogs that people have told me he is untrained but he will rotect me and they were easyily run off the training field with minimal pressure. The dog will take the path of least resistance fight or flight. Flight is easier. The purose or protection training IMHO is to teach the dog the easy way to overcoem the stress is to work thru it and make them confident enough to engage the man. But as I started this post if someone wants in they will get in, as long as the dogs can give me a little warning, to get my buddies smith and wesson.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

No kids in the house, mine is always locked and loaded. Takes me 8 seconds to wake up and remember who I am.

DFrost


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