# Protection dog competing in sports



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Have any of you trained a dog for PPD and then trained him to work in sport? With that said I know everybody has a different definition of what is a PPD. Some so called PPD dogs were trained with sporting methods and the "conversion" was easy. What I'm really wondering is if anybody here had a bona-fide, hardcore street protection dog that they were able to successfully convert to sport. If so please tell us about it. Thanks.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i would think that a properly trained PPD wouldn't have to be "converted" for sport (ASR or PSA). if you have control of your dog, those two sports shouldn't be a problem. just polish up the OB and you're right there. if you have some aggressive, vicious land shark who wants to bite everything that comes close to the handler and won't out (and don't emphasize control in your training), then yes, you'll have problems competing in ANY sport.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim, some PPD trainers (not many) are of the philosophy to let the dog fight naturally (hence not necessarily stay on the bite) and to put the dog into actualy fights with a decoy that is hitting and kicking the dog and, in some cases, actually hitting the dog with an object (such as a whippy type stick that stings and leaves a welt) to cause pain but not injury. There is the philosophy that if a PPD dog has successfully worked through a few of these experiences then this type of dog can be relied upon in a real life situation. 

Some PPD trainers don't agree with this approach and the training their dogs receive is far less demanding on the dog and, in some respects, seems to be more closely related to sport training. So I can understand why a lot of people believe that a PPD dog can compete in PPD sports without any issue. But some might argue that the so called PPD dog was in fact a sport dog all along. 

I've seen in person and on video several dogs engaged in actual fights with a very mean and very aggressive decoy. And I found it beautiful to watch these dogs evade the decoy's attacks and, with lightning fast counter-attacks, deliver what must have been devestating bites onto the decoy. The dogs did take some shots, but from I could see the dogs were masters at evading most of the shots and these dogs were very serious and formidable adversaries for the decoy. 

My thought is that this type of training may make or reveal a better PPD dog but diminishes the dog's sport scoring ability as the dog may not perform the way the sport's judges like to see it done. 

And let me also clarify that I'm not saying that dogs not trained in this manner are not PPD dogs. I've seen some ASR dogs that I am convinced are not just sport dogs. I'm sure there are many GREAT PPD dogs that were not trained in the above-described manner. 

With that said I'm wondering if there is anyone out there that has taken a hardened PPD dog and cross-trained him/her to do sport?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> Tim, some PPD trainers (not many) are of the philosophy to let the dog fight naturally (hence not necessarily stay on the bite) and to put the dog into actualy fights with a decoy that is hitting and kicking the dog and, in some cases, actually hitting the dog with an object (such as a whippy type stick that stings and leaves a welt) to cause pain but not injury. There is the philosophy that if a PPD dog has successfully worked through a few of these experiences then this type of dog can be relied upon in a real life situation.
> 
> Some PPD trainers don't agree with this approach and the training their dogs receive is far less demanding on the dog and, in some respects, seems to be more closely related to sport training. So I can understand why a lot of people believe that a PPD dog can compete in PPD sports without any issue. But some might argue that the so called PPD dog was in fact a sport dog all along.
> 
> ...


if that's the case, then a more specific question would be at what level do you wish to compete? so if the dog is trained to bite/release/bite/release, he would lose points on the grip i suppose, but i wouldn't think it would be enough to not get titled. win the competition? probably not.

every group of dog enthusiasts have there own personal thoughts and opinions. the sport people will say that the PPD people aren't willing to put the time and control into the dog that a sport takes and the PPD people will say that the sport dogs aren't "real". i would tend to agree with the sport people, but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Tim, some PPD trainers (not many) are of the philosophy to let the dog fight naturally (hence not necessarily stay on the bite) and to put the dog into actualy fights with a decoy that is hitting and kicking the dog and, in some cases, actually hitting the dog with an object (such as a whippy type stick that stings and leaves a welt) to cause pain but not injury. There is the philosophy that if a PPD dog has successfully worked through a few of these experiences then this type of dog can be relied upon in a real life situation.

Please don't train with this kind of trainer. This shows a lack of experience, or enough experience to know that this is quicker than going thru bite development, and thus quicker $$$$

I really do find that an awful lot of PPD's are weak, and have no business doing this work. However, if you have a good dog, you really are doing him a diservice by only doing PP with him/her, cause again, in general, it is some weak stuff. There is no reason not to do a sport,(NOT SCH!!!! :lol: ) It will just make whatever else you are doing better. IMHO.

A lot of dogs can bite, it is the control that shows the weakness in the dog.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Remember what was said of our Shepherd dogs:

"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, these must always be tha aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs. *In contradistinction to working and utility is "sport" breeding, which produces a temporary advance but is always followed by deterioration, for it is not done for the sake of the dog, nor does it make him more useful, it is done for the vanity of the breeder and the subsequent purchaser*..."

"The more we emphasize the the social and civil importance of SERVICE DOG BREEDING", the easier it will be for all true friends of the breed to keep it sound... it will then be stripped of all which has grown thru indifference, Ignorance, Vanity, *the Obsession for "Sport*", and a GREED for MONEY.... Max Von Stephanitz


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree with Al.

I dont agree with Jeff.That type of training takes longer than sport if done correctly.

I dont really agree with Tim either.The dog isnt "trained to bite and release",its really up to the dog.

I think many dogs that are trained through sport are good PPD dogs and good PSD in spite of there sport training not because of it.

Some high drive sport type dogs are far more dangerous(in a bad way) than a calm stable and serious PPD.

Absolute control is even more important with a PPD than with a sport dog.

JMO

Greg


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

IMO if a dog has it in him then it'll still be in him regardless of the style of training, if you have a super nasty civil defensive Schutzhund dog, the Schutzhund training doesn't make the dog any better or worse, the dog is gonna bite regardless of what you do. As long as your goal in training is to build the dogs confidence I don't see the difference between sport and personal protection, since all sport is, is control over what your dog can do anyway. A dog getting hit and hurt shouldn't be every day training, it should be a test to see how good your training has been. The only difference between sport and ppd in my mind should be that in sport you don't have as many reality based scenarios in your field training, but that doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means your dog needs to exercise the same control in the real world as they do on the training field, if your dog can't exercise that control then you don't HAVE control over the dog and is something you need to work on. At the end of the day, a good dog will bite in a real world situation, the control work required in sport is what keeps that dog from deciding for themselves what a bad situation is, and getting it wrong.

Patrick, your dog may not have a sport upbringing, but Jake is a good dog, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind about that and I was absolutely impressed with him on Sunday's training, he did the ASR routine very well and I don't think that training him to do the ASR routine will have any adverse effects on him being able to continue being the dog he is, all I see from you and Jake is that your relationship with him is evolving, you've learnt alot about Jake's mentality since I've met you, you've learnt to take a different approach to some of your training, and it's all paying off. All the crazy intense stuff you want to do with Jake can be done without adverseley affecting his ability to perform in ASR, you just need to train it in such a way that he maintains the confidence and clearheadedness that he has today. Regardless of the training route you may have alternatively taken with him in the past, at the end of the day, he's still a good dog, and he would have been just as good a dog if you had raised him for ASR from 8 weeks old, because it's bred into him, his nerves and drives are all there and they don't just go away.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2006)

Jeff, are you saying don't train w/a trainer who trains in this *philosophy*, or are you saying nix the injury part? If you're saying that the dog doesn't need to be injured to be put in a "real-life" situation, then I agree. But, I agree most w/ what Al posted. I know you're no more of a Sch. fan than I am, Jeff, so you'll probably agree that you wouldn't want a sleeve-happy, high-scoring Sch. dog watching YOUR back :wink: . I firmly believe in working dogs through stress, but injury is a whole other ballgame.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2006)

I think Mike makes a good point about a really good dog being able to bite in a real situation regardless of training style, but I would stress that it has to be imprinted properly. I see some dogs at the club who start screeching when they see the sleeve, and chase the sleeve when it's slipped, and their owners are convinced that they're man-eaters...I pray they never find out otherwise. I think there are more good PPD dogs who could do Sch. than there are Sch. dogs that I'd trust w/my life...JMO. I am not overly impressed w/the standards of Sch. these days...

I'm all about natural when it comes to this stuff-the dog isn't *trained* to bite in a certain way; he is permitted to fight in whatever manner nature tells him to do so. There are things humans have to teach dogs, and there are things naturally inherent in dogs that we can't really explain. IMO, tracking and biting are two things that I'll leave to my dog and his expertise :wink: .

Sorry for the double post; my computer was slow, and I thought I was editing...oops.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There are people out there that like the bite and release, and probably can train for it quite well. 

If you want my honest answer about PP dogs, well go get a gun, learn how to use it well because there aren't many "good" PP dogs out there, anywhere. Usually when I hear of one, and track it down, it is a Walt Disney story in the making.

From a decoy standpoint, you teach a dog to bite and release, I got a really good chance of running your dog, then attacking you. This is why I say carry a gun. I have seen more "weak" dogs carry thru on the bite in a PP type situation. That is why I had the numbers up there. Unless you have a dog that seriously tries to bite people all the time, I again recommend the gun.


Quote:I'm all about natural when it comes to this stuff-the dog isn't *trained* to bite in a certain way; he is permitted to fight in whatever manner nature tells him to do so. There are things humans have to teach dogs, and there are things naturally inherent in dogs that we can't really explain. 

Can't go along with this one. I can teach a dog to bite better everytime. I like to teach them where and how to bite. It doesn't come naturally often enough for me to have faith. I like to teach PP dogs to bite the crotch or the stomach. Shut the guy down, so you can run like hell back to a safe spot.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:The more we emphasize the the social and civil importance of SERVICE DOG BREEDING", the easier it will be for all true friends of the breed to keep it sound... it will then be stripped of all which has grown thru indifference, Ignorance, Vanity, the Obsession for "Sport", and a GREED for MONEY.... Max Von Stephanitz

I wonder what the GSD would be like today if anyone had listened to him??


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

This is a great thread, a diference of opinions. Makes the world go round.

I agree that many PP dogs don't belong to the streets. I believe some Sportdogs may still have that ability to engage in real life situations. No doubt about those. In fact, weak dogs don't belong anywhere. But I will not be the one to say that just because one has a dog that bites well in Sports, it can do well in real life. I wonder if I can sleep well having convinced a handler of that. Even prominent sports trainers will be honest enough to advice a sport dog if one wants to do sports, and train another of a more serious-type for personal defense. I sure wish personal protection would simply be shouting "paken" and engaging a LONE decoy 20 yards away in some open area, or just simply one of those routines I train my dogs in. Then I wouldn't have to do "crosstraining" just to let the dog understand it's different outside of the sporting field.   

Unless one is deeply engaged in that discipline having a NEED for such, one will never get to know, and may have no solid basis for opinions. It will be grossly irresponsible to the point of stupid, indecent and immature of me to call a trainer or a handler inexperienced or just after money just because he's involved in a training different from what I do to which I don't have a full understanding of. I can be branded an airhead for that. :lol: :lol: :lol: Engaging in any dog training discipline is not at all bad, as long as one is aware of its intentions and where it belongs. 

Just my opinion...


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff, please clarify if I'm misunderstanding you. What I'm hearing from you is that PPD dogs are weaker than sport dogs. I believe you also said that PPD training is "weak stuff". 

Why do you feel that PPD dogs are weaker than sport dogs and why do you feel that PPD training is "weak stuff"? 

Or did I misread or misunderstand you?


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2006)

Jeff, I didn't mean I don't think you can improve how a dog bites or guide him to where he should bite; I meant that he already knows HOW to bite, and I don't think that we should try to change a dog's "style." We can figure out how the dog works and improve on it, but I don't think we should eliminate any dog just because he bites a certain way.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:The more we emphasize the the social and civil importance of SERVICE DOG BREEDING", the easier it will be for all true friends of the breed to keep it sound... it will then be stripped of all which has grown thru indifference, Ignorance, Vanity, the Obsession for "Sport", and a GREED for MONEY.... Max Von Stephanitz
> 
> I wonder what the GSD would be like today if anyone had listened to him??


I will leave that to your imagination, Jeff. But first you have to be aware what SERVICE DOG BREEDING is. It's other than showbreeding and sportsbreeding. There's an equation simple enough to understand: a sportdog bred to another sportdog = another sportdog. Can't grow apples from oranges. One works a dog constantly in same or similar environments doing same or similar routines, then call a dog streetworthy and confident. Who's fooling whom?

Best regards....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Man, where to start?? LOL!

Jose, I was always a fan of the dogs that had Sch and HGH titles, in the pedigree. You rarly see a guide dog being bred, but I wouldn't pass on a dog for it. I really have a concern for the GSD because of the breeding for stinky Sch, only. I also see a lot of people with less than breed quality dogs throwing out litters left and right, and say how awesome their stud is, and all I can see is maybe average. I would bring back breed wardens right this minute, if I could. No approval, no papers. I reeeeeeeeaaallly don't want people putting a Sch3 on a Mal and calling it breedworthy.

Jenni, rarely does the "style" really impact what I ask of them for PP.

Yes, I think that overall that PP is weak stuff. There are DEFINATLY people out there that do an excellent job with their dogs, and others, but they really are in the minority. There are hundreds of thousands of Personal Protection trainers out there. 98% of them suck azz. Truely, I am not slamming, but this is personal experience. As a bartender, I have worked all over the place, and have sought out these people to work my dogs. Most of them were boobs. I have no problem with a learning decoy, but these people were worse than a learning decoy.

I have been training since I was 7. I will be 42 this summer. I still do not think that I know everything, although sometimes when I re-read a post I wrote, it sure as heck reads like I think I do! #-o 

I am serious when I say that I will take a little 7 lb yorkie for a PP dog anyday over most other breeds. I just need to be woken up. I am large enough, and skilled enough with a weapon or without to deal with Mr "I wanna take your stuff."  Besides, I like my sport dogs. What if the little turd sued me?? I am not giving up my dogs for doing the right thing. Dead men tell no lies.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, so here is the "weak stuff" line.

I saw this ALL THE TIME when I had my school, and when I worked at others schools. 

People get a GSD and go to a club (sport) and are told there dog is too weak. They don't believe them, and go to another club. They get told the same thing. Then they come to me or another school, and want to do PP. When I had my school, I often saw someone who just wanted to do this stuff with their dog, and knew the dog was weak. I tried to see what kind of bond the owners had with their dog. If it was good, then I put them in my bargain basement PP class with others that had no illusions and I taught the dog to bite. I found that the people who loved their dogs and had a strong bond got the best results. They were never disappointed no matter what happened.

Of all the strong working dogs, I never saw one that protected when it was supposed to. Of all the weak stuff I saw three do the job they were supposed to, and so far and above what that dog was you would not believe it. I saw the Police reports. What these dogs lacked in drive, or nerve, they made up for in character. Give me that dog everytime. Too bad I don't see it so much anymore.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Boy I sure would hate to agree with Jeff on anything but...... :x .

The number one thing that dogs lack today is character.I really cant even give an exact answer as to the definition of character except that the dog steps up and handles a tough situation with confidence when it is needed.

Character has absolutely nothing to do with drive or hardness.

Greg


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Boy I sure would hate to agree with Jeff on anything but...... :x .
> 
> The number one thing that dogs lack today is character.I really cant even give an exact answer as to the definition of character except that the dog steps up and handles a tough situation with confidence when it is needed.
> 
> ...


I think you mean: stabile, confident, sure of itself and the world around him, independend.. things like this?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Boy I sure would hate to agree with Jeff on anything but...... :x .
> 
> The number one thing that dogs lack today is character.I really cant even give an exact answer as to the definition of character except that the dog steps up and handles a tough situation with confidence when it is needed.
> 
> ...



*Binggo, Greg...* Character is what the dog is (and the handler as well) and remains long after drives have faded and gone. In real work, you build and strengthen the character, forget the drives...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jose, I was always a fan of the dogs that had Sch and HGH titles, in the pedigree. You rarly see a guide dog being bred, but I wouldn't pass on a dog for it. I really have a concern for the GSD because of the breeding for stinky Sch, only. I also see a lot of people with less than breed quality dogs throwing out litters left and right, and say how awesome their stud is, and all I can see is maybe average. I would bring back breed wardens right this minute, if I could. No approval, no papers. I reeeeeeeeaaallly don't want people putting a Sch3 on a Mal and calling it breedworthy.


Jeff, we're not even discussing titles here. For one, I don't title my dogs simply because I don't do sports, and I never will. No offense meant. But because most will title their dogs, I am always on the lookout for dogs with character, in fact with too much character to be sported. My personal opinion is and definitely no offense intended, sports and show have done more than enough damage to our working dogs. Enough is enough. 




Jeff Oehlsen further said:


> Yes, I think that overall that PP is weak stuff. There are DEFINATLY people out there that do an excellent job with their dogs, and others, but they really are in the minority. There are hundreds of thousands of Personal Protection trainers out there. 98% of them suck azz. Truely, I am not slamming, but this is personal experience. As a bartender, I have worked all over the place, and have sought out these people to work my dogs. Most of them were boobs. I have no problem with a learning decoy, but these people were worse than a learning decoy.
> 
> I have been training since I was 7. I will be 42 this summer. I still do not think that I know everything, although sometimes when I re-read a post I wrote, it sure as heck reads like I think I do! #-o
> 
> I am serious when I say that I will take a little 7 lb yorkie for a PP dog anyday over most other breeds. I just need to be woken up. I am large enough, and skilled enough with a weapon or without to deal with Mr "I wanna take your stuff."  Besides, I like my sport dogs. What if the little turd sued me?? I am not giving up my dogs for doing the right thing. Dead men tell no lies.


As you say, it is your experience, different with Patrick's who posted a smart-fighting dog who wouldn't back out. Different from all the rest as well. I will not question what you've been doing in your so many years of training experience as you say, that you only get to see weak dogs in your time forming your belief that PP dogs are generally weak. Not all are born lucky, I guess. Always expect that any person with bad intent will not only be armed, but will come in numbers as well. Training should improve your chances of survival and that can never be done with weak dogs. I have had 2 attempted home invasions and I have common sense enough not to put the security of my family or myself behind weak dogs. To even advice that sports-trained dogs will be what I'll need would be a crime. I'm pretty sure most of the posters here have that common sense too.

Best regards...


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

A dog with character will work through unseen and new stresses and be stronger for it.

It is a dogs ability to overcome problems and adversity that builds character.

Dogs with character often dont like routines and will only use their abilities when there is a real need.

Weak dogs without character will melt and are not to be trusted in a real situations.

JMO 

Greg


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Greg, I agree on the character issue. 
Selina, good definition.
A dog of good character, along with the right handler, the right helper, etc should be able to do just about anything, although excelling in all factions of PPD, sport, PSD, would be one truely exceptional TEAM. It's that TEAM combo of dog, handler, helper that's the weak spot in the equasion. One without the other two is a loss.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Boy I sure would hate to agree with Jeff on anything but...... 

Yeah, everyone says this until they train with me. Then it all comes around. :lol: 

I have no tolerance for BS when it comes to a dog. Point out the weakness, and train to make it a strength. Pretty simple philosophy. "PC" is crap in my world, I want the truth, hard, fast and simple so I can get on with my training, and be better for it.

Quote:Jeff, we're not even discussing titles here. For one, I don't title my dogs simply because I don't do sports, and I never will. No offense meant. But because most will title their dogs, I am always on the lookout for dogs with character, in fact with too much character to be sported. My personal opinion is and definitely no offense intended, sports and show have done more than enough damage to our working dogs. Enough is enough.

Jose, why do you think they cannot be titled??? Can you define your definition of character, and then tell me why this interferes with getting a title?? It is no misconception that many PP dogs are unable to handle the pressure of the control needed at the top levels of "sport". "sport" dogs are not intended to do PP, and I really hope no one really thinks this is something that will come out of a "sport". The dog either will, or won't protect you. Training will help, but most dogs that do protect are not trained. The other thing with sport is the hundreds of bites taken for rewards, trials, bite development ect. Look at the training. Always on the bitefield, always with some sort of equipment, always with the same people, chairs coolers ect ect. Situation-Pattern.

I like sport, mostly because the exersizes are the same, and the strength of the dog, or lack of, is what makes a difference. If I am looking at getting a puppy, then this is what I have to work with. PP is scattered all to heck, and has no quantifying structure, no stability. There are mostly maniacs out there, and it is dark and uncomfortable. I have been in the biz too long to put any faith in "Personal protection trained" when looking for a dog. Because of this, I feel it is a diservice to a good dog to not title him in a "sport". 

Also, I keep hearing the word stable kicked around when discussing PP dogs. I am curious to how often you think you will ever need this dog, and if he is so stable, why do you think he will do the job?

I used to do a lot of scenarios back in my maniacal days. I would walk up to PP people I knew and pull out my famous "finger gun" and ask for the money. I always pointed it at the dog. No sleeve, no suit, and besides the fact they were flabergasted, the dogs wouldn't bite me. If you look at statistics, most are victems of people they know. I guess this is why I don't want a "stable" or calm dog. 

The most interesting response I ever got was the dang dog bit his owner. He was a "stable" dog, but I guess he was figuring he was gonna be short an owner pretty soon. Ends up, he didn't get anything but put down.

I like hearing how people think of this stuff. Hope I am not pissing any PP people off. Just stating what I see, and have seen, and like to hear other peoples training and such.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff you brought up some good points... :x :x .Damn I agreed again.

A few of us dont like sports because the whole approach to most sport training runs against the dog's natural abilities.The fact is that the training done for most sports is done in a certain way and it isnt a test as it once was.It is for a flashier appearance so a dog can score higher than the rest and I dont have to tell anyone about the politics and ego trips associated with some sports. Over time this training and breeding for sport only is not good for the breeds just as Max said it would be.
The dogs know it is a game and they are for the most part not serious.They can be very very intense and look like they are serious but few are life or death serious.Intensity is enough for most situations though luckily.
At the moment I have 8 dogs.All of them are GSDs,Mals and Dutchies of different ages.Most of them have very good pedigrees for sport or policework.If I had to pick one of them for a "PPD" it would be Rocky.Rocky is a three legged blk and tan American bred GSD.Rocky has character and not much if any prey drive but he is life or death serious.I dont think he could be titled in a sport even if he had all his limbs.JMO


Greg


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Try Mondio. No need to be flashy there!


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yeah, everyone says this until they train with me. Then it all comes around. :lol:


Same here... then eyes open...



> I have no tolerance for BS when it comes to a dog. Point out the weakness, and train to make it a strength. Pretty simple philosophy. "PC" is crap in my world, I want the truth, hard, fast and simple so I can get on with my training, and be better for it.


Definitely agree and not a common attitude to some people of your kind. Some get mad when they see their dogs tested and fail, not able to look at themselves why it failed.



> Quote:Jeff, we're not even discussing titles here. For one, I don't title my dogs simply because I don't do sports, and I never will. No offense meant. But because most will title their dogs, I am always on the lookout for dogs with character, in fact with too much character to be sported. My personal opinion is and definitely no offense intended, sports and show have done more than enough damage to our working dogs. Enough is enough.
> 
> Jose, why do you think they cannot be titled??? Can you define your definition of character, and then tell me why this interferes with getting a title??



Jeff, read my post again: They cannot be titled BECAUSE *I DON'T DO SPORTS AND I NEVER WILL*. :lol: :lol: :lol: To compete, my dogs need drives, specially prey, right? Well, my current dogs have absolutely no sporting background. While you may be very careful not to do anything much with pups as it may hurt their "drives", I bring my 6-weekers on their first great outdoors, and at 10 weeks of age, they show good OB, neat agility, started mantracking and defense work, and definitely not in manicured lawns with fixed painted agility courses. 8) From then on, it's going to be more challenges till it becomes second nature. There's a lot more to it than just that of course, but I'll stop here. At this point I think you can answer your own questions. What do you think am I developing? Drives? :wink: 




> It is no misconception that many PP dogs are unable to handle the pressure of the control needed at the top levels of "sport".


I will not be too rash in making such statements, Jeff. Is the dog just watching you with no reaction? Is it overwhelmed and running away? Crazy people are anywhere intimidating dogs for no reasons. A good "Please, don't do that", tell the dog "Leave it", then walk away often does the trick.

Control issues? Any training discipline revolves around...OBEDIENCE. It is the cornerstone of all training. Some may not require flashy competition obedience and even frown on it as not being practical. Having a manstopper that can't be controlled is not worth walking the streets.



> "sport" dogs are not intended to do PP, and I really hope no one really thinks this is something that will come out of a "sport". The dog either will, or won't protect you. Training will help, but most dogs that do protect are not trained. The other thing with sport is the hundreds of bites taken for rewards, trials, bite development ect. Look at the training. Always on the bitefield, always with some sort of equipment, always with the same people, chairs coolers ect ect. Situation-Pattern.


Now do we understand each other! It's bite-bite-bite-drives-drives-drives.
Training, in my opinion, is not teaching a dog to bite. Show me a dog that doesn't bite. It's training the dog when and when not to bite, which is again: OBEDIENCE. In defense work, you train the dog not only to bite, but develop all the other skills a genetically-correct working dog was born with, speed, cunning, agility, claws and the bite. All these come into play in defense work. 



> I like sport, mostly because the exersizes are the same, and the strength of the dog, or lack of, is what makes a difference. If I am looking at getting a puppy, then this is what I have to work with. PP is scattered all to heck, and has no quantifying structure, no stability. There are mostly maniacs out there, and it is dark and uncomfortable. I have been in the biz too long to put any faith in "Personal protection trained" when looking for a dog. Because of this, I feel it is a diservice to a good dog to not title him in a "sport".


Well, those are your reasons so good luck. I don't think any responsible person having a real serious need for dogs will ever be like what you mentioned. A dog will simply reflect the owner, the sad part is, often what is missing in him. 



> Also, I keep hearing the word stable kicked around when discussing PP dogs. I am curious to how often you think you will ever need this dog, and if he is so stable, why do you think he will do the job?
> 
> I used to do a lot of scenarios back in my maniacal days. I would walk up to PP people I knew and pull out my famous "finger gun" and ask for the money. I always pointed it at the dog. No sleeve, no suit, and besides the fact they were flabergasted, the dogs wouldn't bite me. If you look at statistics, most are victems of people they know. I guess this is why I don't want a "stable" or calm dog.
> 
> ...


Jeff, any of my personal dogs and some dogs I know will be most happy to engage you, whether on command or if you do any bad move. I do not take pride in saying that some of them already did, as the consequences are not all worth it. Yet they will not hurt a child, nor be bothered by joggers passing close by, nor by a commotion up front if I tell him to "leave it", nor will they be aggressive to other dogs or other animals. Are they weak dogs? 

Best regards...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

yup. just as i predicted. it has turned into a "your sport dogs aren't real" versus "you can't title your dogs because you don't want to inject the necessary control" argument.

as far as jose goes. you frown upon prey drive like it's your enemy. getting a dog with both prey and defense drives can make your training go faster and easier.

the bottom line is that there is only one true way to find out if a dog will bite a man and that is when the REAL situation presents itself. we can all speculate with great suit work and unbelievable muzzle work, but until it's REAL, you'll never know.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> the bottom line is that there is only one true way to find out if a dog will bite a man and that is when the REAL situation presents itself.


Does it count when your dog lets go of the sleeve n bites the decoy in the ass because the handler (oops) wasn't holding the leash tight enough?? LOL... yeah Cujo did that on Sunday, I need to get a snapshot of that outta the video clip tomorrow.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> yup. just as i predicted. it has turned into a "your sport dogs aren't real" versus "you can't title your dogs because you don't want to inject the necessary control" argument.......


MOD COMMENT:

QUOTE: This is a great thread, a diference of opinions. Makes the world go round. END

It is indeed! And I know we can keep it civil.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> yup. just as i predicted. it has turned into a "your sport dogs aren't real" versus "you can't title your dogs because you don't want to inject the necessary control" argument.
> 
> *as far as jose goes. you frown upon prey drive like it's your enemy. getting a dog with both prey and defense drives can make your training go faster and easier.*
> 
> the bottom line is that there is only one true way to find out if a dog will bite a man and that is when the REAL situation presents itself. we can all speculate with great suit work and unbelievable muzzle work, but until it's REAL, you'll never know.



Never said that, Tim. If that property reffered to as "prey" exist in a dog, then it cannot not ignored and will always be part of the TOTAL development. Maybe the overuse of it becomes bad as it may make the dog imbalanced, which results in what is reffered to as "prey monster" or locked-in-prey or whatever you may call it.

I don't know much about drives nor do I find it necessary to identify what drives the dog is in while at work. As to what "drives" the dog use to get the work done is his department. It may be a cocktail of drives, switching every second as the work demands it, for all I know. :lol: 

Best regards...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Tim Martens said:
> 
> 
> > the bottom line is that there is only one true way to find out if a dog will bite a man and that is when the REAL situation presents itself.
> ...


actually, no. it does not...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> Maybe the overuse of it becomes bad as it may make the dog imbalanced, which results in what is reffered to as "prey monster" or locked-in-prey or whatever you may call it.


agreed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quoteefinitely agree and not a common attitude to some people of your kind. Some get mad when they see their dogs tested and fail, not able to look at themselves why it failed. 


What kind am I???? 

Well, let me help you out. I like to train dogs. I really don't care if someone wants to do PP or sport. Do I have any faith in a PP dog?? No, not really. Do I have any faith in a sport dog? No not really. Do I have faith in a .45? Why yes I do.

I have no intention of ever testing my dog on a human being that is not wearing equipment. My outlook is that the dog will fail, and I like my dogs, so why would I want them to get hurt? Lets face some basic facts. If a man is not afraid of your dog, it is dead. It has one weapon, and when that is taken away, the animal is helpless. I do not weigh 110 lbs, I weigh 240. I can easily take a dogs life. Knowing this, I really do not want my dogs biting anyone. 

So I do sport. This way I can enjoy the training, and see the dogs doing things they are good at, or not so good at. I have one of each. :lol: 

The sport dog isn't real thing crops up a lot. For me, it doesn't matter. If I lived somewhere so bad I thought I needed all this protection, I would move. Life is too short to put up with that crap, and hunting human scum is illegal. Damn those laws! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

So Jeff, you keep your gun and I keep my dogs, ok? :lol: :lol: 

No use stretching this thread any further as it may seem we are both arguing. I don't want to mar this forum with such. Just wanted to post then leave it up to the readers to evaluate and test it, only if they care to. 

Nice discussing with you. I apologize to Connie if it seems that I was was a little combative. I never was.

Best regards...

Al Reanto


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Who cares what anyone thinks???? Oh, my God they might be learning from each other, quick stop the thing  :lol: :lol: :lol: 

I say we keep going, cause eventually it will stop being theory, and start being practical knowledge. Besides, men need to argue and fuss to figure stuff out, it sticks in our heads better that way. Women don't get that anymore. My Grandmother did. I am not sure there are to many like her anymore...........or then again ever.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent discussion folks! 
Connie, be careful about how you say "We can keep it civil"!  :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:A few of us dont like sports because the whole approach to most sport training runs against the dog's natural abilities.The fact is that the training done for most sports is done in a certain way and it isnt a test as it once was.

You mean Schutzhund??? What about the ringsports? I would like to hear your take on this. I meant to ask the other night, but forgot.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

We all feel very strongly about what we believe to be true.Hopefully this belief comes from what we have seen with our own eyes and not something we read or heard secondhand.
I took a chance and changed around my whole training philosophy after I decided to go and see for myself a trainer that many said was totally crazy.I would have never accepted it if I didnt see for myself.
The internet is not a great place to make a point about dog training.You cant say "watch this" or "feel that" over the net and therefore people wont believe...not really believe.Its not enough to think,you have to know through practical application.


I dont think this thread was getting out of hand at all.I dont know why we cant argue a point without mods jumping in.People should not be so thin skinned.


Jeff,

Anytime you try to teach a dog how to bite or where to bite then it is my firm belief you are working against the dogs natural ability and instincts.Our job is only to assist the dog in the work.Same with tracking.
That is one reason I dont do sports.I admit I dont know a great deal about mondio.ASR is better but they all worry about the "quality of the bite" as far as I know.
Actually I like Sch.I think it could be a great test but not like it is now.

I dont really concern myself with drives anymore either.I have a couple of dogs with very high prey drive but I never do any "drive development" with my dogs anymore.Hell, I used to train with the Flink's style of focus and grip.
I actually prefer a different type of dog than I used to but if Ive got a really high drive dog then Ill use that to my advantage.
Basically Ill use whatever works to help the dog develop his own skills and build confidence.

Im not bashing anyone's training methods,just telling how I do it.Im not in "business" and dont try to say I train any great PPDs.Everytime I go somewhere and work someone's dogs that they say are so tough and titled and "real" serious or even some of the police dogs Ive worked I think my dogs are doing pretty good.

If you want to train for sport, then great.At least you are doing something with your dog.Just always remember that it is a game and the dog knows it is a game.Even if the dog is a fire breathing demon with smoke coming out of it's ears it still knows its a game..IMO.that means he may or may not work in a real situation.If he does then youll say "great"! that training really works! If he runs youll say"I knew that dog was crap all along".Neither will be correct.

Ok,Im rambling now.Great topic! :lol:  :wink:  

Greg


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> Mike Schoonbrood said:
> 
> 
> > Tim Martens said:
> ...


It was a joke?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Excellent discussion folks!
> Connie, be careful about how you say "We can keep it civil"!  :lol: :lol: :wink:


LOL! I know, Bob........"I know we can keep it civil" must be code.......gotta learn it, if it's that weighty!

Side note: I really have followed this topic with a lot of interest (and appreciation for the continued civility). Good thread.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Tim Martens said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Schoonbrood said:
> ...


my bad mike. i was just quickly skimming through the thread and didn't catch the humor in your post.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie, generally, when PPD, PSD, Sport dog people refer to a dog as being civil, they mean it will bite without the need for sleeves, bite suits, etc. In other words, a serious dog that will bite for real. We don't want to many "civil" discussions here. :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> We don't want to many "civil" discussions here. :lol: :lol: :wink:


I've been on forums of all kinds since 1995 and worked all kinds of forum posters...I have seen a few participants with fight drive, but not many. You'll know them when you finally see one. ALL CAPS, LOTS OF ANGER AND EMOTION AND DOUBLEPOSTS. :wink: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> .....I have seen a few participants with fight drive, but not many. You'll know them when you finally see one. ALL CAPS, LOTS OF ANGER AND EMOTION AND DOUBLEPOSTS. :wink: :lol:


Yep. Seen 'em.  

But they're not here and I LOOOOVE it! Discussions (and arguments) can actually continue without personal attacks and insults!


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You mean Schutzhund??? What about the ringsports? I would like to hear your take on this. I meant to ask the other night, but forgot.



Jeff, What is the difference between Ringsports and the current Sports of Schutzhund? In Schutzhund, a dog is made a clone of another. Seen one seen them all. All patterned training as you say and is the only activity for the life of the dog. Hope I got it right... 

Is there any difference in ringsports?

Just curious...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Big difference. If you go to google video, then put Martine Loots in the search box you can see some Belgian Ring. Mondio is similar.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Big difference. If you go to google video, then put Martine Loots in the search box you can see some Belgian Ring. Mondio is similar.


That was very cool! Is there more somewhere?

Link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6650666482655320120&pl=true


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Big difference. If you go to google video, then put Martine Loots in the search box you can see some Belgian Ring. Mondio is similar.



Can you or someone give more specifics, please? I just want to know...

NOTE: I'm sorry, I didn't get what you meant, Jeff. I'm viewing it now. Thanks...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Try this, see if it works. These, I think are the dogs for the selectif this year in Frnch Ring.

www.chienplus.com/selectif-Ring-2006.htm

For you PP people, the decoys here try to screw your dog out of points, not test the dog. These dogs are not unknown to them, they have probably worked them before as well as talked to those that have worked them.

The biggest way to screw a dog is to disrupt what it has been trained to do.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff,

Why do they call it "ring" sport anyway?

Belgian ring is cool to watch but my favorite "sport" to watch is KNPV.Its all kind of surreal though.

Greg


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

FR, MR, and BR all have to be in an enclosed area.

I think that I like the ringsports because of the escort, and the Object guard. These, I like training the most. I have been in the sport only 5 years, so I still suck at training them. I should get it in another 50 or so, then.......LOOK OUT! :roll: Until then, the dang dogs keep coming up with weird ways to make me look like I didn't train sh%t. ](*,)


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

I am familiar with Belgian Ringsports specifically the NVBK. My Belgians are of NVBK registry, though stricken from competition, and my kennel is registered with the NVBK. I remember doing these routines once upon a time. 

If under the remote possibility, I have no longer use for the training that addresses my direct needs and concern, I maybe interested in doing a little of this brand of Sports. I only hope it comes to that. As it is now, there's nothing like it....

Best regards...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

> I should get it in another 50 or so, then.......LOOK OUT! :roll: Until then, the dang dogs keep coming up with weird ways to make me look like I didn't train sh%t. ](*,)


Jeff, take it from an old guy! That wont change. The dogs will always find ways to make us look like idioits. :lol: :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I didn't think so, but one can always hope.


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