# Prong collar safety question



## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Reading the nice prong collar thread, Thomas mentioned prongs as being safer than choke chains/slip collars.
Probably my go to collar for a lot of obedience, before I introduce the e-collar, is a prong, although I do use slip collars for very specific things.
I've heard the "prongs are safer" argument for years, but I'm wondering if this has ever really been studied? Anyone have a link? Or is it just anecdotal?

I've got most of the e-collar studies around the house, ready to bring out when people don't like them. Would love to have the same for a prong vs slip argument, since I started, then stopped myself from getting into that argument last weekend. 

Derek


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Derek, I'm not being facetious when I say this but put one on your neck with a line attached and give yourself a respectable correction. When you are done I thnk you will have a better understanding for why prongs are perceived to be safer/more humane. Looked at differently, not that people are in the habit of leaving either of these types of collars on, but chances are if something is going to go badly with either, it will be with the choke chain. The prong can only compress so far and with enough force/twist they will come apart.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Nicole,
I agree with you, and I have actually tested ecollars, prong collars and slip chains. The only one to leave any significant bruise or lasting damage, as yet, was a sharp correction on a slip chain. So I'm not disputing the current thinking around here at all.
What I was asking for is if anyone has an actual scientific study for the idea that prongs are safer than slip chains.
For my own records.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Derek Milliken said:


> Nicole,
> I agree with you, and I have actually tested ecollars, prong collars and slip chains. The only one to leave any significant bruise or lasting damage, as yet, was a sharp correction on a slip chain. So I'm not disputing the current thinking around here at all.
> What I was asking for is if anyone has an actual scientific study for the idea that prongs are safer than slip chains.
> For my own records.


 
http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Thanks for that Kevin,
Gives me a place to start looking for the source article.
Don't suppose you have a link to it do you?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Derek Milliken said:


> Thanks for that Kevin,
> Gives me a place to start looking for the source article.
> Don't suppose you have a link to it do you?


http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=23311&page=1#240789

good luck...my old friend (and future enemy) Google has given me tons of information on it, that all leads back to that same verbage, verbatim, from the same source, mention of a study in Germany done, at an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar, and posted online in articles by Janice Frasche, who cannot provide much additional information, except the list she got it off of...

Not saying it isnt legit, just wishing you good luck in verifying it, as it appears others have put in at least a little legwork trying to get the information...

the leerburg link should give a push in the right direction


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Joby,
We're not gonna be enemies. Spirited debate and competition perhaps lol.
So the leerburg link says it was an 80's? maybe study?
Guess I'll have to go check the university libraries and see if I can find a link.

Anyone know the journal?

Truth is, I agree a prong is probably safer than a choke collar. And I doubt a true study has ever been done, as the simplest model would require a bunch of dogs just get corrected a bunch of times, then get necropsied to look for tissue damage.
But if the study does exist.... Seems I'm now on the hunt for it....
Maybe I should just ](*,)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ah, so the mystery begins. Well Derek, the thought did cross my mind about why you were interested in this info. I figured you either needed it for something specific or the seductive nature of the net set off a compulsive switch in you about finding the end of something that likely had no beginning to start with. 

I think you know what I mean. The internet has a way of leading people in circles sometimes, and for what? I'm really not sure. Maybe a it's just a convenient distraction. 

I guess though sometimes it's really useful for stuff like proving that Michael Murphy truly does exist. But, in all seriousness if you do find the original study we could WDF knight you for that act and then you shall forever be known as Sir Derek Milliken. Good luck. O


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

And, Joby, I'm just going to derail my own thread here, let it sit and see if anyone can offer up the original link, or a better link than you gave....
My GF is from IL, we're talking about going down to see her family.
If I get down there it would be my pleasure to meet up and talk dogs. Share a drink (but I don't drink), and debate whether phone books, Ray Allen catalogs, or Michael Murphy's opinions are the best defence against a civil dog


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Nicole,
Like I said, it's one of the tools I prefer to use. Personally I believe it's not only more effective in most situations, but it's also safer for my dog.
That said, my background is science, so I like to see studies.
Doubt I'll ever make Sir Derek Milliken of the WDF, but all quests start with a myth


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

I have no idea why anyone would think either collar was safer. Safer in what way is a better question. If you tie up a dog on a choke chain, it's very easy to get hung up and strangle the dog. I know several dogs that died this way. The prong collar gives a much harsher correction than the choke chain, which makes it easier to use for novice handlers and the general public that only uses it as a self correcting collar.

I have never seen a legitimate study on a comparison of these collars, but have found that people make up various issues with choke chains more and more as they go out of fashion. Most of these people have never learned how to use a choke chain so have no idea what they are talking about.

I would say that neither is safer, there are pros and cons to both. They are tools only and safety is in the hands of the handler.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Elaine,
That's a complete non-answer to what I asked.
I didn't ask about dogs getting hung up on collars, nor did I ask about the general public using a collar for self correcting.
I'm pro-prong collar, I'm not going to hide that. I prefer to train an obedient dog, called to heel or front, rather than just a mechanical "don't pull on the leash".

I simply asked for scientific studies that might show which collar is empirically more damaging to my dog/your dog/the average dog.
If you have something to offer to that question.... please do!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Derek. I did not mean that you and I will be future enemies, I was refferring to Google, the all powerful, who is currently our friends, and soon to be our enemies once they dominate the world, correction, they already dominate the world, once they let us know about it...and use it in ways to enslave us.

I just checked and there were more Google spiders on here than members, crawling around, digesting everything they find EVERYWHERE, and carrying it back to the multicontintental hoards of supercomputers that are probably more powerful than anyone elses, NSA included...

here is what they are up to in Oregon USA...one of the first main pillars of "GooglePlex". short article you should read it...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ter-power-plant-to-dominate-online-world.html

google has spiders eating up everything everywhere all the time 24/7, trillions of them, owns the most popular search engine, and has Lion's share of browser usage as well, about 50%,..AND it copies and digests everything, the amount of automated information collection...google is one scary son of a bitch trust me...

In 2010, Google revealed that its fleet of Street View cars, which criss-cross the globe taking panoramic photos for the Google Maps product, also had captured personal information such as emails and web pages that were transmitted over unencrypted home wireless networks.

google glass, and Google Now, will soon be all the rage, as google interfaces with the brain itself, and people dont realize it...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bianca-bosker/google-io-2013_b_3282256.html

use your chrome browser to google,the "Google Now". It will bitchslap Siri back into 80's, and the next step in Google takeover, straight into our heads.

so, no Derek, I was not referring to you..it was google..

sure I recommend people to use it, because it is the best in my opnion, but always keep in your head, tha google may some day actually be in your head.

yeah shoot me a PM if you come to the area


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Elaine Matthys said:


> I have no idea why anyone would think either collar was safer. Safer in what way is a better question. If you tie up a dog on a choke chain, it's very easy to get hung up and strangle the dog. I know several dogs that died this way. The prong collar gives a much harsher correction than the choke chain, which makes it easier to use for novice handlers and the general public that only uses it as a self correcting collar.
> 
> I have never seen a legitimate study on a comparison of these collars, but have found that people make up various issues with choke chains more and more as they go out of fashion. Most of these people have never learned how to use a choke chain so have no idea what they are talking about.
> 
> I would say that neither is safer, there are pros and cons to both. They are tools only and safety is in the hands of the handler.


Put a choke chain around a watermelon or ? and start pulling.
There is no STOP on a choke chain. Do the same thing with a prong collar and the correction stops when the middle chain comes together. You don't need to be a genius to see where a 
prong collar is naturally safer. It's got nothing to do with going out of style or learning how to use either. It's simple common sense.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Elaine Matthys said:


> ....The prong collar gives a much harsher correction than the choke chain...





Elaine Matthys said:


> I have never seen a legitimate study on a comparison of these collars, but have found that people make up various issues with choke chains more and more as they go out of fashion.


Like you just did about the prong collar.
Where did you get your info that a prong correction is much harsher than a choke chain correction? 

you can do some easy research with that one yourself like 10's of thousands of trainers do all the time, put them both on and have someone give you a correction, see which one is harsher...

it is more effective and safer to use becuase it spreads that force over a much larger area than a choker...3/4 of the neck absorbs the correction, and it is also spread wider,,, serioously put both on your leg and have someone give them a yank.


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## Glen Jesse Golden (May 23, 2011)

I performed a literature search on comparison of dog collars and other terms in a few sources (i.e., PubMed, Web of Science, Google Scholar) and only found one study somewhat related to the question. See http://www.revmedvet.com/2012/RMV163_530_535.pdf. I found it as a pdf so I doubt there are any CR infringement problems. 

This study compared ecollars to pinch collars and included a comparison to quitting signal. The study may have some validity, but the data and statistical analysis is suspect (no error bars and I'm not sure they used the correct statistical model). 

Learning occurred faster with ecollar over pinch, behavioral signs of stress were greater with pinch, but salivary cortisol levels were greater for the ecollar. Apparently, dogs (Malis) found the quitting signal particularly stressful. 

Sorry I couldn't find anything directly related to the question. If one were to do the study, I'd like to see more than tissue damage. Behavioral profile, salivary cortisol, plasma ACTH, heart and respiration rate, blood pressure would be better measures of stress at the time of application.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

thanks for that Glen, ya, I have that study already


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I have seen the study in question and linked it on another forum, I will try to find it again as it was about a year ago I think.
One thing that pisses me off about prong collars is that I e-mailed sprenger to ask for the correct position for prong collar placement and I got nothing back. Simple enough question really.


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