# Griffin



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is a couple of shots of Griffin at 7 mo. He is pretty stout at this point but is slowly gaining a little height.


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

He looks nice Don!! 
I have a friend that raises show Airedales...... when ever I read about your guys I think how differant in behavior they are from hers!! Her's would have no idea how to hunt at this point. the group life must be a breed thing though- she has anywhere from 10-15 dogs there.... the dale's are never grouchy with each other or the other dogs (her JRT are though- but she does ground trial with them- they are workers) she will have calm puppies hanging out and they seem soooo mild to me. Of course I always have Boxers & have the Dobie pup- so most puppies that are not bouncing off the walls seem calm to me.
Love the rocky area he has.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Don, didn't you recently have a litter born? Any pics? How's Magnum doing?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Laney, I got pup pics but not of those pups. I have some leaving tomorrow and Sat. Haven't been out since I killed that hog because the weather went to hell, power was out up here for a week and the roads are mush....so....to keep the property owners happy I stay off of them until I can get on them without tearing them up.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Looks good Don, I can't wait to see what he produces crossed with your dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Courtney, Here is a picture of one of my dogs which is typical. They have a lot of leg under them proportionately, and are very narrow built for 28 and 29" dogs. This is Magnum.


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

Hi Don,
He looks nice too- He reminds me of an Airedale that I used to groom (other than Nobbie was neutered- so the testicals weren't there!! Did you pick that pic for those ) I think yours are taller than hers (Cathy & Bob have Bobcat Kennels in OH- like I said- they do show and not working lines though) 
I always like grooming Airedales- they are a great breed, and the ones I've worked with are normally quite social with people (aside from the crazy one I banned from the shop.... only dog in 16 yrs of grooming that I knew if he got ahold of me- it would not be just a bite- he got loose and stalked me for a few minutes til we tricked him into a crate- gotta say- that is not easy)


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Don I like the look of your dogs. I worked one about a year ago that was an import she was about 2 years old and was a SERIOUS dog. Very quick and civil.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Griff has picked up a bad habit from being around Palin. When it is chicken time, the dogs in the side yards are impatiently waiting and are all standing on the gates. Griff runs around and nips at their stomach. Well now, he may have gotten more than stomach but Wild Bill was a might unhappy with him and grabbed him by the face and was trying to drag Griff though the gate yesterday. I reach over the gate for Bill and he let Griff go. Griff had no intention of backing out of that gate and was doing his darndest to even the score. I see him as having what I would call a temper rather than being cool and calculating. A temper is going to get him in trouble because Wild Bill is 95 lbs and Griff has no business, at 7 mo, trying to lay the big KO on Bill. I think I am going to move him into his own yard this weekend if it stops raining and snowing. In his own yard he won't have access to all the gates with the heavy weights in them. For his own good. WB did bloody him up a bit but not a whimper out of the pup. Pup was pissed.

He is really good with the pups and plays well with the girls. I think the males have had enough of his games at the gates.

This is Wild Bill


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

Don- how big is Griffin? Do you think weightwise he will be near your line at some point? I believe I've read you saying before that you didn't think he would be as tall.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Courtney, He is a stout little guy right now and is probably about 60 lbs. Parents were 24" and 24 1/2" repectively where my dogs are 27' to 29" and he will never make up the difference. What happens when he is bred is what I want to see. I spent a couple of hours moving dogs around this morning and hr is now in a huige corner yard with Natasha, Cassidy, and Greta. Natasha and greta are sisters and Cassidy is coming into heat. I will pull Greta before she comes in because I would rather breed Jenny so no sisters are involved. I don't know if Griff is ready yet. If he misses Cassidy's heat then I will pull her instead. Some of the girls are tall and I don't know if he will be "up" to it. LOL


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

ahh.... just get him a step stool!!! If he is mature enought for the urges to be there real strong- he'll find away...... I've know some pretty willing bitches too that will do their best to help!! Just thinking of toy breeds where their male is a 2-3 lb and he's being bred to a 6-8 lb bitch- that is pretty common. Plus I've heard of people using phone books for the boys to step on- just get out there & help him Don!!  That would be a sight.

I know you brought Grif in to add new blood to your lines- what traits does he have that you think would be an assett to your line if mixed in? 

Has he gone on hunts? Or keeping him in til he has more pups down before that risk?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Courtney DuCharme said:


> ahh.... just get him a step stool!!! If he is mature enought for the urges to be there real strong- he'll find away...... I've know some pretty willing bitches too that will do their best to help!! Just thinking of toy breeds where their male is a 2-3 lb and he's being bred to a 6-8 lb bitch- that is pretty common. Plus I've heard of people using phone books for the boys to step on- just get out there & help him Don!!  That would be a sight.
> 
> I know you brought Grif in to add new blood to your lines- what traits does he have that you think would be an assett to your line if mixed in?
> 
> Has he gone on hunts? Or keeping him in til he has more pups down before that risk?


I doubt I will hunt Griff on hogs at all. As was said, I need the genes, but I am thinking doubling up on him would be interesting if some of the pups fair well at bite work. Griff has some traits that would be beneficial crossed with my dogs. I think, after being around Griff, he is much more dependent than my personal dogs....or most of the dogs I breed. ....ok, any of my dogs. Griff has to be touching me as in leaning on me holding my hand or arm in his mouth. It appears, German dogs are bred to have this dependence on their person because it makes working with the dogs easier. I have always bred for "natural" abilities and gameness so my dogs are not dependent at all. Quite the reverse. I think there may be a happy median that will make the dogs better in certain arenas. My dogs and pups are born and raised with the freedom of big yards. Many on this forum, want the sun to rise and set on them, so they try to make them totally dependent on them. Griff must be what they are stiving to achieve. If so, all they have to do is go East German and they will get the dependence they are looking for. My dogs are more the opposite pole so I think somewhere in between may be an interesting place.

As a breeder, I do have one big reservation. A big one which I can handle but, none the less, it is a serious consideration for me. I have never approved of any one with my dogs breeding to German breeds such as dobies, rotties, etc.. The German dogs all, inherently have more of a tendency to bite people because they have been bred for it for years. Dachshunds , bird dogs, you name it, they are more inclined to bite people. The German protection breeds have proven themselves at taking stick hits etc. 

Now we take my dogs, that are game enough to go out and fight with broke ribs, cut up and actually battered getting hooked and repeatedly tossed 8' in the air. They can be stapled up and battered for real... and they cry to go the next day. They absolutely love people and will only really get serious with people if I am in danger. 

My concern.......How is the stronger propensity to bite people going to mix with the more predatory nature and nerve of my dogs? This is what I am most concerned with when I see Griff's temper get the best of him to the point of going after Titan or Wild Bill. It is the uncontolled temper at 3 1/2 months and 7 mo. that concerns me. My dogs are social dominants and tend to have to contol everything around them except people.. I don't want to see them including people in what they think is ok to control. 

Even though Griff is an airedale, same as my dogs as far as breed is concerned, they could well be different breeds in some respects because of the heavy line breeding for different purposes on both sides. 

Then, there is the realistic side of the equation. I found no American bred dales suitable to bring in after several years of looking. I don't need to bring in "pet" airedales. That was for Joby. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I just spent an hour on the phone with a friend that has a sch III dale and recently aquired an East German female. All dales he has dealt with have been East German dales. I expreesed mjy concern about the short fuse Griff has. We likened to to Griff would be like a person that commited a crime of passion wyhen pissed. My dogs are more like hit ment where there is nothing personal, it is just a job. He has met my dogs and he told me to watch the short fuse the East German dogs can have. He agrees with me that there is more of a civil side to the EG dogs. He is really ecited to see what crossing the two lines will bring to the table. I am two, but I do have my reservations for sure on ths first cross. This is also the reason I will be trying to give dogs to some that are used to civil type dogs....just in case. LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sounds more like the little bassids! That's about the only sort of terrier I know except for the Borders.


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I doubt I will hunt Griff on hogs at all. As was said, I need the genes, but I am thinking doubling up on him would be interesting if some of the pups fair well at bite work. Griff has some traits that would be beneficial crossed with my dogs. I think, after being around Griff, he is much more dependent than my personal dogs....or most of the dogs I breed. ....ok, any of my dogs. Griff has to be touching me as in leaning on me holding my hand or arm in his mouth. It appears, German dogs are bred to have this dependence on their person because it makes working with the dogs easier. I have always bred for "natural" abilities and gameness so my dogs are not dependent at all. Quite the reverse. I think there may be a happy median that will make the dogs better in certain arenas. My dogs and pups are born and raised with the freedom of big yards. Many on this forum, want the sun to rise and set on them, so they try to make them totally dependent on them. Griff must be what they are stiving to achieve. If so, all they have to do is go East German and they will get the dependence they are looking for. My dogs are more the opposite pole so I think somewhere in between may be an interesting place.
> 
> As a breeder, I do have one big reservation. A big one which I can handle but, none the less, it is a serious consideration for me. I have never approved of any one with my dogs breeding to German breeds such as dobies, rotties, etc.. The German dogs all, inherently have more of a tendency to bite people because they have been bred for it for years. Dachshunds , bird dogs, you name it, they are more inclined to bite people. The German protection breeds have proven themselves at taking stick hits etc.
> 
> ...





Don Turnipseed said:


> I just spent an hour on the phone with a friend that has a sch III dale and recently aquired an East German female. All dales he has dealt with have been East German dales. I expreesed mjy concern about the short fuse Griff has. We likened to to Griff would be like a person that commited a crime of passion wyhen pissed. My dogs are more like hit ment where there is nothing personal, it is just a job. He has met my dogs and he told me to watch the short fuse the East German dogs can have. He agrees with me that there is more of a civil side to the EG dogs. He is really ecited to see what crossing the two lines will bring to the table. I am two, but I do have my reservations for sure on ths first cross. This is also the reason I will be trying to give dogs to some that are used to civil type dogs....just in case. LOL


Woo Hoo- I figured out how to multi quote!! Sorry...

Don,
I tried to write you back the other day- but my message got "lost".... and I've been sick for a few days since.

Back to Griff...... I understand what you are saying on the co dependant issue with the german line...... my dobie Rogue I refer to as "my strange furry growth"- personally I like a bit more space for myself than she thinks I need. I understand why she is suppose to be like this for her training..... but I couldn't see her doing pack or group work because of it. I wonder how Griff would handle being sent to hunt with a pack. How do you start them on training for what they do? And how long do they train before being sent out to hunt? Forgive my ignorance- I am truely interested in what you do with your dogs- but I don't know how you train for it- or if you just pick the pups that show the right signs, and the pack trains them mostly.

Still adding to this post....


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

somehow it lost my new post.... I'll keep going on here:

You mentioned possibly doubling up on Griff in the 1st post...... is that just for breeding purposes- finding the right mix of your lines & the german lines or are you looking to see what the 1 generation gives, then take a pup from that back to your lines, and another back to Griff to see what the results of each bring you .... and continuing to kinda of "mix the ratios" to see what deveolpes with differant %'s & generations? What traits would you look for in a pup to keep verses a pup to send off to a working home?  Sorry- I have my scinece project hat on I guess. I used to raise & show rabbits.... I line bred mostly- adding in new blood when needed. Went to being in the top 5 in the country in both breeds..... then needed a new challenge..... enter Rogue & working sports. But my "breeder side" still likes to sort things like this out. I find it exciting. But rabbit culls you can eat.... people frown on that with puppies....


If you see a "trend" of human aggression in Griff's line pups..... what measures would that promp you to take? What if they still did the hunting job without flaw- yet, you just had to be more careful in their pen, verses.... random attack during hunt? Do you think with the short fuses that they could end up attacking their pack mates during a hunt from being to high in drive (a frenzy? couldn't think how to put that)

Does your friend with the SchH Dale have people that may be interested in some pups down the line?

Tell Joby- you were going to add Poodles to them for the pet aspect- you fingured all the other breeds were being crossed with them........


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Courtney DuCharme said:


> Woo Hoo- I figured out how to multi quote!! Sorry...
> 
> Don,
> I tried to write you back the other day- but my message got "lost".... and I've been sick for a few days since.
> ...


Courtney. There isn't much training for hunting dangerous game. The dog has to know how to use his nose and be in great shape physically. Outside of that they need to be trained to get in the truck, come into the dirt road to be picked up so thy yhave to know the sound of the truck horn Training for the hunt itself requres they be broke off other livestiock. and THAT THEY BARK WHEN THEY HAVE A HOG SO I CAN FIND THEM. Unfortunately, things do go south once in a whle. 

Handling themselves with th hogs is pretty much an experienced based deal. You don't want a dog that is totally without fear and you don't want them to have short fuses. Either will bring them up on the short end of the stick. I am seeing a much shorter fuse (temper) in Griff.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Courtney DuCharme said:


> somehow it lost my new post.... I'll keep going on here:
> 
> You mentioned possibly doubling up on Griff in the 1st post...... is that just for breeding purposes- finding the right mix of your lines & the german lines or are you looking to see what the 1 generation gives, then take a pup from that back to your lines, and another back to Griff to see what the results of each bring you.... and continuing to kinda of "mix the ratios" to see what deveolpes with differant %'s & generations? What traits would you look for in a pup to keep verses a pup to send off to a working home?  .


For my lines, I just need Griff for the refresh ing the genetics. I will keep a male and female from each cross and raise them myself. One from the first crosses will go back to Griff's breeder since he is the obvious choice to see what more subtle differences he see's in the cross. So far there are a couple of other pups being given to people to work. Some of the feed back will tell me which way to go as farm as doubling up on Griff. I am going to have to go with what others see in them since I don't do bitework. It is going to have to be a collective of opinions really. For my personal line I only need the genetics crossed in once and then try to pick the ones that took after my line for me. Seeing what can be developed for bitework will be a new challenge that will hinge mostly on Griff and how much percentage wise , my dogs may or may not benefit the mix. I have good access to others with some heavy duty east German dogs also. Some which are related to the dale that took 7th at the world competition a couple of years ago. Can't think of the dogs name right now but seems it was Eke or something similar but I don't even know where to look. LOL 



Courtney DuCharme said:


> If you see a "trend" of human aggression in Griff's line pups..... what measures would that promp you to take? What if they still did the hunting job without flaw- yet, you just had to be more careful in their pen, verses.... random attack during hunt? Do you think with the short fuses that they could end up attacking their pack mates during a hunt from being to high in drive (a frenzy? couldn't think how to put that)


That is the million dollar question Courtney. I have no problem whatsoever with controled human aggression. This is what concerns me about seeing the "temper" in Griff. Controlled aggression is predictable, aggression stemming from anger and other sources is not. My dogs are pretty controlled and there is no mistaking their intent. My yard is set up for these dogs and there is one male per yard with a 4' safety zone between all fences separating the males. They will hunt together because it is their job and the fight is with the hogs. When the hunt is over and they come back to the truck, I keep 2 cattle prods at the tailgate if it turns into a war and the dogs are all crated quickly and in separate crates. There are some folks that have hunted with me that got some stories about getting these males crated at the truck. LOL My dogs are controlled and intend to do what they do. I know just how they are going to react and am prepared for it. The up side, they are great with people and only assert themselves with people if they think I am in danger. Now we have Griff that has been bred for biting people, sport or civil. I have no idea how the two are going to mesh....or what the results will be. The up side is my yard already looks like a electric power plant because of my own dogs so, I am set up for this. Bottom line on one subject though, no dog I raise will look at me like the enemy in my own yard.



Courtney DuCharme said:


> Does your friend with the SchH Dale have people that may be interested in some pups down the line?


He is hyped about this cross.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Eyk Von Erikson http://www.patrycjaf.pl/


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That's the one Will, Thanks


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Griff got his first clip this morning. Good looking dog under all that hair. Stout pup too. I will get some pictures in a day or two when the sun is back. He had a lot of grizzeling in his saddle bit I don't see any grey now. Can't say that he like those horse clippers around hs face, but he got used to it pretty quick after I nicked his ear. His front legs are about 3 times as far apart as my big adults. Might not be a running build but I would guess once he plants his feet he will hold his own. Powerful dog all the way through. Reminds me of a smaller version of Odin. It is going to be a few months yet because when I leashed him up to take him out of the girls yard they were attacking him and showing no respect....treated him like a pup still.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Wow, Don.. he looks great!! 

I saw these guys when they were just little curly black & tan balls of cuteness at 6/8 weeks old.. glad to see he's turning out well for you!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Britney Pelletier said:


> Wow, Don.. he looks great!!
> 
> I saw these guys when they were just little curly black & tan balls of cuteness at 6/8 weeks old.. glad to see he's turning out well for you!


I haven't taken his picture yet. Maybe I should because the sun is out now.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here ia Griff at just past 6 months with his first clip


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lookin good!
You can definitely see how much thicker he is then your other dogs. Wider front, more barrel chested and not quite as much leg under him. 
He'll be interesting to follow.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Wow what a chest on that dog, he is definitely stockier than a lot of your dogs. Hmm not too sure about the shaved tail, LOL dales look better without the tail.

Can't wait for more updates and finding out how he produces crossed with your lines.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Great looking dog, Don. Love his build.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Don

Use some of your Evan Walker funds and buy a bitch from Von Erikson. Start breeding some sport dogs that will be able to cross over to different work that isnt hunting.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I met the couple with the 10 year old airedale that's related to Griff this weekend at the PSA trial. I thought it was kinda cool that along with his Sch and protection sport titles he is also a master retriever. Seemed a like a neat dog to train and work.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That tail has to go.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I met the couple with the 10 year old airedale that's related to Griff this weekend at the PSA trial. I thought it was kinda cool that along with his Sch and protection sport titles he is also a master retriever. Seemed a like a neat dog to train and work.
> 
> Terrasita


That would be Ed and Barbara maybe? With Brisco?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Don
> 
> Use some of your Evan Walker funds and buy a bitch from Von Erikson. Start breeding some sport dogs that will be able to cross over to different work that isnt hunting.


Will, this is the dog to cross over, but don't want to lose the hunt. Here is one of my dogs at 8 mo with a litlle training. I do belive they can "cross over" rather than be one or the other.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That would be Ed and Barbara maybe? With Brisco?


Yep, that was him.

T


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Keep up the good work. Airedale or Reisenschnauzer will be my next dog once my Bouv is gone... I can appreciate civil.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Aww he looks so cute in his new do. Tail didn't look that bad but I'd prefer not having one. My dog can clear a coffee table with his when he is inside. 

He is impressively thick, but I know those chestless dogs can run forever. Had the ugliest built GSD ever but he could run like a greyhound and snatch up rabbits and rats on the go. The heavy boned dogs don't seem to hold up as well, not as gracefull and can't move fast enough to get out of their own way. Of course there are exceptions to that but I haven't owned one. 

Hopefully you get the right mix you are looking for in temperament and drives.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Griffin is quite impressive, Don. Didn't he come from Europe, reason why tail was left? Maybe just leave a little coat on it. Can't believe he's so large at such a young age. Great pics of sch dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Laney Rein said:


> Griffin is quite impressive, Don. Didn't he come from Europe, reason why tail was left? Maybe just leave a little coat on it. Can't believe he's so large at such a young age. Great pics of sch dog.


I think I got him out of NH....but he is all East German. Stew docked the tails on some and not on others. He asked and I told him it made no difference to me if he had a tail or not. Tails and ears don't make the dog. I did think about leaving a ball on the end.... or leaving the last 3 inches on the underside long like a flag.


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