# Pet training rant



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Why in the hell do some people choose to ignore advice that will save their children's faces? I mean, without question, this dog is seriously going to injure a child- their own or one of their children's friends and they want to "work it out". 

I've had one of those "WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU!!!!" days. 

I just don't get it.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Hi Kristina,

Those are the type of owner's who make the eleven o'clock news! And it's usually the innocent who end up being the victims of stupidity.

I can relate though. I have a client dog here (Mal female) who I've had since she's been a pup. She's now 7 1/2 years old. Good with me and my dogs. Do I trust her? Hell NO!! A few years back she bit the owner's temporary roommate in the face (17 stitches and plastic surgery) when the dog was sending every signal in the world to stay away. This moron wanted to give her a hug!?!?!?! 

Now that the owner's have a active almost 2 year old, they want to force the bonding. Which includes hugging a obviously uncomfortable, unstable dog?! I've waned, lectured until you just know alll head nodding from the owner's is nothing more than air rushing between the ears.

I might add that the dog and one owner live in California. The S.O. lives in New York with the baby. And she's a doctor. Given this dog's history I would never allow her around children. Hell, I don't allow her around adults either. 

I'm waiting for that hysterical phone call one day! Very sad! I hope that you will be able to get the message through to your pet clients.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

8 people live in the house, I forget the ratio but at least 3 children under 15. The dog has already aggressively persued 4 or 5 people, including the most recent incident (that promped them to call a behaviorist) in which the dog charged a 10 year old friend of their son's as soon as the kid came through their front door and backed him into a corner, snapping and lunging. ](*,)

.............................This dog is 5 MONTHS old. ](*,) ](*,) 

He is a purebred, MAIL ORDER Bouvier that is approx. 45 lbs at 5 mos. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


The smilies slamming their little yellow heads into the brick wall does not do my attitude justice in the least.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Kristina Senter said:


> 8 people live in the house, I forget the ratio but at least 3 children under 15. The dog has already aggressively persued 4 or 5 people, including the most recent incident (that promped them to call a behaviorist) in which the dog charged a 10 year old friend of their son's as soon as the kid came through their front door and backed him into a corner, snapping and lunging. ](*,)
> 
> .............................This dog is 5 MONTHS old. ](*,) ](*,)
> 
> ...


DOes this dog have thin nerves? Or is just confident and dominant already with real forward aggression? IF he is not thin nerved, just tell your client that you will take the dog off their hands for no charge......then call me because I need a young angry Bouvier at the moment.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeah really. Where was the owner. Not uncharacteristic for a 5 month old bouv not to let someone through the front door or to do a bark and hold on an intruder. The owner has no idea what they are dealing with. The fluffy cuteness is deceiving. This has disaster written all over it and not for the typical cookies and treats behaviorist. 

Terrasita


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike, I'll let you know if they call me back, lol.
It's fear, not dominance but he's very forward. I'd actually like to see what he is, away from the chaos. He seems like with someone that had a clue, he might be a pretty nice dog. I told them it would NEVER work in their household with their experience, but they want to keep him.

As far as a strong working dog- I very highly doubt it. Guard dog that will bite the ever loving s**t out of someone? You got it! 

I'm sure they'll wait untill he's 15 months, mauls someone and is absolutely beyond hope to decide "this may not work".


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Go figure, eh? I'm sure most serial killers parents "loved" them right up to the point they were killed by them...

The word of the day is "Knuckleheads."

I guess it just comes down to how far you're willing to go to protect them from themselves.

For example: (true story) A dog was brought to OB training class by a person. A pre-training evaluation was done. The Training Director (TD) went into the office for a few minutes, returned and told the person that the dog was a danger to them and every other living being. (not those words but you get the drift) and that an appointment had been made with her vet to have the dog euthanized and that she would take the dog for the person due to the fact she didn't think the owner should even get in the car with the dog. The owner refused and said she was crazy etc. 6 months later the TD got a call from the owner. It was the first call the owner had been able to make considering that those 6 months had been spent in the hospital reconstructing her throat. The owner indicated the TD had been right and had made a pledge to them-self that if they lived and could ever talk again they would call the TD to apologize for all of the things they had said and that she had been right.

A lot of discussion has gone on about that. Should of just walked the dog out back and shot it. Let the owner sue for "property" damages and be done with it.

I warned some family members about their rescue dog when I was visiting them. They took it to a behaviorist because I didn't know what I was talking about. Being 1000 miles away by then there wasn't much I could do about that. 3 months later the dog bit my Grandchild in the face. I should have taken that dog for "walk" while I was there... I could live with them hating me because I made the dog disappear. 

How much can your conscience take... How far are you willing to go?

Good luck, there are somethings you just don't have any control over and some that you do...


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

No lie, this woman called us three days before this incident. She was several hours away and so could not bring the dog for an evaluation. She was told: "bringing what you're describing is not necessary, you should not even be in a vehicle with that dog. Get your daughter out of the house, muzzle him, call your vet to come to you and make sure that he is very, very dead as soon as is earthly possible". 

3 days later...

http://www.wistv.com/global/story.asp?s=5303200&ClientType=Printable

I am not of the opinion that I should be able to ultimately decide what someone does with their dog. I don't want anyone deciding such things for me. At least in the case above, the right person was killed. Is this Bouv a time-bomb in the hands of these people? Absoutely! But as far as I'm concerned, the responsibility is theirs. I offered to find the dog an appropriate home now, as opposed to an ICU unit, law suit, lifelong emotional trauma and bullet down the road. They opted otherwise and all I hope is that when this dog bites, it is the right person this time as well.

We keep documentation on file for all recommended euthanasias. It is rare that we recommend it (as opposed to training) but when we do and they choose not to, you'd better bet we'll go to bat with the prosecution with proof that they had a dog who they chose to keep, despite professional recommendation that the dog was dangerous.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Kristina,

I understand completely. Most of us also felt it was, after all, it was the owners decision/responsibility and not for us to dictate. Hindsight does create some interesting discussion though! There are some tuff decisions to be made in this profession... Cut and dried it isn't!

As for the current situation, Mother nature is a bitch. She'll handle it. One can only hope for the justice you desire.

Great thread by the way!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bouvs can go through this type of stage and then come out of it around 18 months or so. The trick is to handle it right. Its hard to know without knowing how he was before 16 weeks.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

A big reason I don't do commercial training anymore, is the percentage of people that are actually there to learn was getting smaller and smaller.

I told a lot of people after the first "free" lesson that there were some good training schools that they could go to. For me, the first free lesson was a good indicator of what kind of person I was dealing with.

There are many good people out there, however, they have common sense, and rarely need to go for training. When they do show up, it is really nice to teach them and watch the dog do nice nice OB for them.

Sorry you had to go through all that. I do know what it is like.

It is a full moon tonight, maybe that is what it has been.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

I see it everyday in the course of working as an animal control officer. Usually it is with Pits or Rotts,but the same scenrio. People fail to realize what they have and what the dog is capable of doing until it is to late. The public wants to blame the breeds and not the idiot owners.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I can't buy into the breed issue, I would like to know the lines and details as to how something like this can happen. Bouvs are cool!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've taken many dog bite reports . People refuse to see their dog for what it is . A dog . Instead it's their baby and they let their feelings get in the way of doing the right thing . 

On more then 1 occassion I've told the owners they should give the dog a dirtnap and they look at me like I'm nuts . 

It's usually the owners fault anyways . I don't understand why folks can't descipline there dogs . Most certainly wouldn't allow an actual human family member to run around uncontrolled and biting people but a dog is different ?!

I used to think folks would just have to learn for themselves but that's a rarity to . Usually if what they've been warned about happens , they just blame it on someone else . 

I've had the same experiance as Eric . I haven't looked in the freezer at Animal control in years but it was primarily Pits and Rotts . I don't blame the dogs but the culture of some that buy them . No training , chain them outside to watch the neighborhood kids run around and tease them . Encourage aggression and very little socialization . Then this strong dog gets loose or someone too close and they get bitten . We all heard the rest of the story . "Baby was such a good dog , she wouldn't hurt anyone , that person must have done something to her !" .
What I see in most cases are folks that were never taught "personal responsiblity" . If they do something bad or something bad happens due to their behavior they have learned to blame everyone else .


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Good hope with the full moon Jeff, lol, but ultimately it's just the joys of pet training. I envy those of you who can work with exclusivily working dogs. I see something similar to this almost weekly. I have many clients who I really enjoy working with and some really cool dogs but there are always "those others". The worst is when really great people come in with a really shitty dog that they did not create. I hate telling serious, determined, nice people that no matter how much money they spend, time they dedicate and committed they are, their dog is genetically f***ed.

This one just gets to me because I think it could be a cool dog in the right hands and I have a feeling that it's not their own kid that is going to be badly bitten.

I had some people come in today with a GS in an eerily similar situation. #-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Then again, some of these people that think they are really cool trainers need to go and work with pets and see how ****ed their training really is. : )


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Only half kiddingly,
You could kidnap the dog.

Strangely I had a neighbor that had a nice Beligain Sheep dog chained in the back yard, the dog went missing some years ago. Big neighorhood mystery at the time.
Last I heard the dog was some place in Vermont.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Lol, I'll keep it in mind, Randy 




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Then again, some of these people that think they are really cool trainers need to go and work with pets and see how ****ed their training really is. : )


I gotta say, I'm with you there. It's easy to get a high drive dog to want to do something and fixing one difficult dog's relationship with one specifically chosen, prepared, (hopefully) trained and physically capable handler is a breeze (who, IF they fail, can be replaced by the next applicant). 

Try helping a family whose mother in law has moved in with a child-aggressive 8yr old poodle. Just for shits and giggles, take on an 80lb lab/pit x who heaves itself at the owners' bay window whenever another dog walks by. Explain to someone why their 3yr old aussie is literally trying to take their 13yr old dobe out of the picture to make room for herself or why, despite their research and choice to get a Golden Retriever, their dog will unquestionably send them to the hospital over a few kibbles. Of course most of us can handle these dogs...but unless you're willing to move in with these people, getting THEM on track is the fun, creative part. 

Uggh....such is life


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

better you than me kristina!

do you go thru a lot of ibuprofen fr the headaches you get beating your head against the wall?

i'm pretty good with ppl, but NOT good with clueless and unwilling-to-change animal owners. it just makes me too angry to see potentially GOOD dogs, ruined/pts b/c their owners (for SOME odd reason) think their dogs are ppl in dog clothing, then let them act like totally wild children.


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## Tammy McDowell (Dec 4, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> Only half kiddingly,
> You could kidnap the dog.
> 
> Strangely I had a neighbor that had a nice Beligain Sheep dog chained in the back yard, the dog went missing some years ago. Big neighorhood mystery at the time.
> Last I heard the dog was some place in Vermont.


I know of a couple of stories just like this. 

It can certainly be a challenge and a bit draining sometimes working with the typical pet person.

We had a client earlier this year that brought in a Chessie puppy. While dropping pup off kids were literally riding on pups back and making it squash to the floor. This poor guy was barely able to hold himself up to go to the restroom, would shake and fall over and of course owner was oblivious. :-#


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