# a knpv vs nvbk comparison i came accross on a forum!



## Michael Murphy

*Best Answer - Chosen by Asker*

I have been involved with Malinois longer then most people here have been alive. First back in Europe in the KNPV and then the NVBK. I knew what a Malinois was when 98% of people had never heard, never mind seen one. I owned the first Malinois in the USA to work the streets as a police dog, I have imported and trained hundreds upon hundreds of them.
Based on that, I have seen what most lines have to offer and have seen some good and some bad ones and I will tell you what I know.

The Dutch Mals are mostly mixes of Mals and GSD's, Great Danes, Pit bulls, you name it, its in there. There are no papered dogs in Holland and the 2% that are come with "false papers"!!
The KNPV requires dogs that will eventually do police work and as a result their dogs have a ton of prey drive and some defense. They are not challenged enough in my opinion by the helper nor the environment, therefore that is reflected in their quality.
KNPV, just like FR and Sch is a choreographed routine, not very exciting to watch, other then the courage test!
I have imported a TON of them here, wayyy back when a titled one was selling for $1200 as opposed to the $6500 now and I know that while they can do police work, they are lacking in nerve.

The Belgian dogs out of the NVBK ARE bigger then all other Mals because of certain breeding standards within the program. The NVBK produces Mals that are monsters, my personal dog here was 92 pounds, HUGE by Mal standards. 
Those dogs have nerves of steel and balls of Iron. Clear heads and no environmental sensitivities.
They have good prey drives, but, are CIVIL as all hell and their aggression levels are legendary.
Those are the dogs that not too many people can actually handle. There is no set program in the NVBK, the judge decides that day on what the dog will do and face in the ring."

what do you think about these claims ???????:-\"


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## Joby Becker

I always go to Yahoo Answers to get the best information...


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## Lisa Brazeau

I have nothing to add, but I'm curious to know people's opinions.


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## Austin Porter

Wow.. I wonder if I have any great dane or pit in my dutch line dogs? Jk Lol...

I have always wondered what the big differences were between the dutch, french, Belgian line mals. Size, bone structure, temperment, drives, health? What line is generally most suited for mwd and psd work and Why? Are the differences in the lines a reflection of their "home" sport? What sport has the truest test for a working dog? Why did you chose your line of dog?


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## Lee H Sternberg

I think the dude needs to agitate a few gutless KNVP doggies with no bite suit wearing crotchless panties!:lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

A good dog is a good dog, in whatever venue.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> A good dog is a good dog, in whatever venue.


That's a diplomatic answer, Selena.You are too kind!!:grin:


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## Michael Murphy

no diplomatic answers please . i posted it up to see peoples reactions and responses.
you never know their might be an element of truth to it 
are nvbk dogs more civil , do knpv dogs have nerve and environmental issues ??


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## Drew Peirce

interesting viewpoint, but the numbers dont support it
selena nailed it.........


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## Jim Engel

So you are 130 years old?

Murphy is a pretty funny sounding Ditch name, 
when and where did you "train" KNPV ?

Did you actually title dogs, or just stop by
and watch?


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## jack van strien

A bad dog is a bad dog in whatever venue.


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## Michael Murphy

its not my post Jim lol, its a comment i came across on the internet.
funny things is 3 people have privately messaged me saying they agree with that comment :!:


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> its not my post Jim lol, its a comment i came across on the internet.
> funny things is 3 people have privately messaged me saying they agree with that comment :!:


with which comment specifically? there were lots of comments made in that posting.


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## Christopher Jones

Its all true. You should get yourself NVBK dogs and not KNPV dogs. This is the only option for you. :-\"


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## Jim Engel

"comment i came across on the internet."

Almost, but not quite, as impressive as three private messages .

Well, obviously, if it was an unknown comment on the internet then it is settled, the moderates might just as well shut this down.


Seriously, the thing that sets the working dog forum apart is that we all have real names and have introduced ourselves.

Exactly who is this guy that had the first KNPV dog in America ?

Opps, don't see your introduction, perhaps you ought to take care of that.


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## Mark Sheplak

The source was easy to find online, but the poster is anonymous.

This was posted 3 years ago by 








38% Best Answer

*Greek God AKA Greekman*

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100430103923AAAJuuC


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## Christopher Jones

The fact that the guy couldn't get the easiest to prove facts right in that he says that without doubt the NVBK dogs are way bigger than the KNPV ones should get peoples bullshit meters going off.


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## Joby Becker

or the FACT (as he states it) there are no papered dogs in Holland...](*,)...and the fact that NVBK decoys test the dogs much harder..](*,)


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## Ken Seminatore

A 92 pound Malinois??? Not really what the breed was ment to be that large. Might as well get yourself a Presa. The better the larger, right?


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## Faisal Khan

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> A good dog is a good dog, in whatever venue.


Yes yes yes.


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## Michael Murphy

to Joby, the part about being able to perform better under different environmental pressures.

to christopher, hows the new litter out of rico going?


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## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> to christopher, hows the new litter out of rico going?


 Really happy with it.


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> to Joby, the part about being able to perform better under different environmental pressures.
> 
> to christopher, hows the new litter out of rico going?


I think I agree also that the actual trialing does test more environmentals in certain ways as well, based on what I have been able to view online, without ever seeing the trials..

The rest of the stuff said is pretty stupid in general...that guy made a bunch of statements and presented them as absolutes, and as facts, which are simply not true. There are a variety of dogs, breeders, and trainers involved in all sports. All with different dogs, different training/exposure and things that are important to them.

so to say that 3 people agreed with that, does not mean that they agree with what that guy said, unless they actually said that.

as in anything concerning dogs, some dogs are better than others, and good dogs are where you find them, regardless of there origins.


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## Zakia Days

Michael Murphy said:


> *Best Answer - Chosen by Asker*
> 
> I have been involved with Malinois longer then most people here have been alive. First back in Europe in the KNPV and then the NVBK. I knew what a Malinois was when 98% of people had never heard, never mind seen one. I owned the first Malinois in the USA to work the streets as a police dog, I have imported and trained hundreds upon hundreds of them.
> Based on that, I have seen what most lines have to offer and have seen some good and some bad ones and I will tell you what I know.
> 
> The Dutch Mals are mostly mixes of Mals and GSD's, Great Danes, Pit bulls, you name it, its in there. There are no papered dogs in Holland and the 2% that are come with "false papers"!!
> The KNPV requires dogs that will eventually do police work and as a result their dogs have a ton of prey drive and some defense. They are not challenged enough in my opinion by the helper nor the environment, therefore that is reflected in their quality.
> KNPV, just like FR and Sch is a choreographed routine, not very exciting to watch, other then the courage test!
> I have imported a TON of them here, wayyy back when a titled one was selling for $1200 as opposed to the $6500 now and I know that while they can do police work, they are lacking in nerve.
> 
> The Belgian dogs out of the NVBK ARE bigger then all other Mals because of certain breeding standards within the program. The NVBK produces Mals that are monsters, my personal dog here was 92 pounds, HUGE by Mal standards.
> Those dogs have nerves of steel and balls of Iron. Clear heads and no environmental sensitivities.
> They have good prey drives, but, are CIVIL as all hell and their aggression levels are legendary.
> Those are the dogs that not too many people can actually handle. There is no set program in the NVBK, the judge decides that day on what the dog will do and face in the ring."
> 
> what do you think about these claims ???????:-\"


This is a very old question/answer segment is it not? I don't think it is from recent years. Back then, when he was importing, if you were dealing with not so savory breeders/trainers, they'd sell you a sh*t dog and think nothing of it. "Back in those days, the people in the US just wanted malinois, so we sold them. Most times they were sh*t dogs, but they didn't check and we didn't care. They just wanted dogs." That I heard from a "horses mouth" in clubs or trials while visiting. It was done deliberately at the time and there was a lot of money involved so, maybe he got the crap end of the deal in most of his transactions with the Dutch Malinois breeders. In ANY country where dogs are in high demand and there is no reliable evaluator of the dogs, you will run into those unsavory types, so this is nothing new. 

I know who provided the answer. I met him about three times. I think if he were importing now in the present time, he'd know to have a more reliable lliason and how to choose the lines, temperament/character of those dogs. Just my opinion, but I think the comment may be outdated. Where is it from?


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## Joby Becker

Zakia Days said:


> This is a very old question/answer segment is it not? I don't think it is from recent years. Back then, when he was importing, if you were dealing with not so savory breeders/trainers, they'd sell you a sh*t dog and think nothing of it. "Back in those days, the people in the US just wanted malinois, so we sold them. Most times they were sh*t dogs, but they didn't check and we didn't care. They just wanted dogs." That I heard from a "horses mouth" in clubs or trials while visiting. It was done deliberately at the time and there was a lot of money involved so, maybe he got the crap end of the deal in most of his transactions with the Dutch Malinois breeders. In ANY country where dogs are in high demand and there is no reliable evaluator of the dogs, you will run into those unsavory types, so this is nothing new.
> 
> I know who provided the answer. I met him about three times. I think if he were importing now in the present time, he'd know to have a more reliable lliason and how to choose the lines, temperament/character of those dogs. Just my opinion, but I think the comment may be outdated. Where is it from?


Canada Yahoo Answers...says 3 yrs ago


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## ben litchfield

im not saying this is correct or even my opinion but,i have two friends who travel out to holland from the uk a few times a month to train with a knpv club that they have joined.i spoke to one of them ref the quote and they said that the subject had come up at the club and the general opinion was that nvbk are a lot more civil,to the point where they are not suitable for a general working dog,ie a dog that will interact around people/crowds.the knpv club generally have there dogs around them during tea breaks etc,this they say couldnt be done with nvbk dogs as you just couldnt trust them.the nvbk dogs are worked then crated.again i have no experience myself but this was the opinion of a knpv club member.


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## Connie Sutherland

Joby Becker said:


> Canada Yahoo Answers...says 3 yrs ago



And it was copied and pasted there from elsewhere.

The only reason for my post here is that we don't copy and paste without credit, just for future 
reference.  In this case, no credit was available to give.

So .... carry on. :lol:


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## Jim Engel

One of the most amazing things I ever saw was a KNPV training director, or at least
the guy running things, putting his own Malinois on a down while the other dogs worked
protection.

The dog almost crawled out of his skin, but he stayed.

I am not saying this is general, but it sure sticks in my memory.

And it was not a big deal "See what I can do with my dog." 
it looked like he did it as a matter of routine.


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## Michael Murphy

ben litchfield, says you do police k9. have u had any experience with nvbk or knpv dogs. and would you say these friends are good sources?
sounds a lot like a czech lines gsd vs west german , comparison


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## Timothy Saunders

ben litchfield said:


> im not saying this is correct or even my opinion but,i have two friends who travel out to holland from the uk a few times a month to train with a knpv club that they have joined.i spoke to one of them ref the quote and they said that the subject had come up at the club and the general opinion was that nvbk are a lot more civil,to the point where they are not suitable for a general working dog,ie a dog that will interact around people/crowds.the knpv club generally have there dogs around them during tea breaks etc,this they say couldnt be done with nvbk dogs as you just couldnt trust them.the nvbk dogs are worked then crated.again i have no experience myself but this was the opinion of a knpv club member.


that has nothing to do with the actual dogs. That has more to do with how it is kept. If you took an NVBK dog and treated it like a KNPV dog it would be less civil.


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## Michael Murphy

^ what about if you take a knpv dog and treat it like a nvbk dog, will it act more civil like a nvbk dog?


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## ben litchfield

Timothy Saunders said:


> that has nothing to do with the actual dogs. That has more to do with how it is kept. If you took an NVBK dog and treated it like a KNPV dog it would be less civil.


does that mean that all the research and decision making people do when selecting a pup is a waste of time.people research lines to find dogs that suit there requirements regarding levels of prey,defence and fight etc etc.is your belief that we can all go out and buy a pup from any quality litter and the dog will morph its levels into what we want over what was passed down to it from its parents and its parents parents.interesting maybe time to rip up the 5 generation pedigree's and blood lines.

micheal,yes buddy there good people.people simply require different levels of drives for different things.no rights or wrongs just different needs,no ones willy is bigger than anyone else's.at a guess i would say people who got the hump with the original statements are(and stick with me here ive just started watching criminal minds!!:grinmales between the ages of 18-25,who own knpv line dogs.there socially insecure about what there doing making the dog an extension of there ego..............hotch ive finished my profile!!!!:lol:


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## Michael Murphy

your last line lost me ben :-k didnt know there were many 18 to 25 year olds with knpv line dogs, or any of them that posted on this forum/thread.


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## Timothy Saunders

ben litchfield said:


> does that mean that all the research and decision making people do when selecting a pup is a waste of time.people research lines to find dogs that suit there requirements regarding levels of prey,defence and fight etc etc.is your belief that we can all go out and buy a pup from any quality litter and the dog will morph its levels into what we want over what was passed down to it from its parents and its parents parents.interesting maybe time to rip up the 5 generation pedigree's and blood lines.
> 
> :lol:


 No it doesn't mean that. the difference in what you are saying is bloodline. not knpv is this and nvbk is that. If you buy a pup from civil parents you expect the same, no matter where you got it. Same for the social dogs.


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## Ariel Peldunas

ben litchfield said:


> does that mean that all the research and decision making people do when selecting a pup is a waste of time.people research lines to find dogs that suit there requirements regarding levels of prey,defence and fight etc etc.is your belief that we can all go out and buy a pup from any quality litter and the dog will morph its levels into what we want over what was passed down to it from its parents and its parents parents.interesting maybe time to rip up the 5 generation pedigree's and blood lines.
> 
> micheal,yes buddy there good people.people simply require different levels of drives for different things.no rights or wrongs just different needs,no ones willy is bigger than anyone else's.at a guess i would say people who got the hump with the original statements are(and stick with me here ive just started watching criminal minds!!:grinmales between the ages of 18-25,who own knpv line dogs.there socially insecure about what there doing making the dog an extension of there ego..............hotch ive finished my profile!!!!:lol:


Better stick to your day job. I think the BAU might question your profiling skills.


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## mike suttle

I always say that a good dog is where you find it. Having said that I make a living buying dogs that are best suited for the jobs that they are used for here in the USA. Sometimes those dogs are used for USAR, Dual purpose police K-9, single purpose detection, or Special Forces work. The one thing that all of the customers I have require is a stable temperament with very good nerves, no matter what job the dog will be doing. I have traveled all over Europe in the past 10 years testing dogs for our clients. I have tested dogs in France, Belgium, Slovokia, Hungary, Germany, Holland, and Finland. We have seen good dogs in all of those areas, but by far the country that has the highest % of dogs that pass our selection testing is Holland, specifically dogs from the KNPV program. 
In terms of size I consider most Dutch dogs to be on the large side for what most of our clients need, in fact we've had a few dogs that were passed over in our kennel because they were too big. We have had many Dutch dogs over 100 lbs, and most of the adult males are 80 lbs or bigger. I have two females over 90 lbs here now. I personally like a dog a little smaller than that, but I wont wash out a dog for being too big as long as they pass the working and agility testing. 
I would agree that many of the NVBK dogs I have tested were less social than the KNPV dogs for sure. That is the first red flag to me when I'm testing a dog. A stable, confident dog should be social, or neutral to people. But the biggest thing that I see in NVBK dogs is environmental shortfalls that make them unsuitable for the type of work our clients look for. I have tested many NVBK dogs that bite like monsters and when they are in drive they look great, but when they are out of drive they are very worried about the world around them. Of course I have also seen KNPV dogs like this, but its not as often as I see it in other dogs from other areas and other working venues. 
These are just my expierences with the dogs I have tested from many areas of Europe.


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## Michael Murphy

^ its surprising how they can have environmental issues when it looks llike they have alot of tests for it in the nvbk program. so it seems like their high drive overcomes these issues. 

would you say that weak environmental nerves is closely linked with nerves when dealing with a human threat/decoy etc or can they be seperated in some dogs


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ its surprising how they can have environmental issues when it looks llike they have alot of tests for it in the nvbk program. so it seems like their high drive overcomes these issues.
> 
> would you say that weak environmental nerves is closely linked with nerves when dealing with a human threat/decoy etc or can they be seperated in some dogs


This is where most people get confused. When I say environmental tesing, to me that means when the dog is totally out of drive, when I walk him into a warehouse, airport, shopping mall, working factory,etc. In an area with a lot going on, noise, people, slick bright shiny floors, steep open metal grated floors, 2nd story floors with open grated walkways for the dog to see down below through the floor, etc. When the dog is simply out for a walk and not in drive and I ask him to jump high onto a narrow slippery bar height table with wobbley legs, and from there jump onto a metal shelf three feet away, for example, then I see how his nerves really are.
To me, when a dog is in drive on the trial field and he sees leaf blowers, clowns with hula hoops, water hoses, and other circus props this is not testing his environmental strength. 
I want to test him when he's in a totally new environment and totally out of drive. Then is when I see the most problems.


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## Derek Milliken

Interesting perspective Mike, I wondered when you would weigh in on this topic. And I agree with everything you said. 
But if you were training "pure" KNPV, vs. "pure" NVBK, that is just prepping the dog for what it will see on the trial field, not whatever else individual trainers might do, NVBK would be widely considered a tougher test for environmental nerves. 
That said, my current dog is a pedigreed mal from KNPV lines and I'm very happy with most every environmental response I see in him.


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## Jim Engel

Although I have certainly not seen as many dogs as Mr. Suttle, what he says certainly rings true with my experience.

When a dog is "in drive" a lot of side issues fall away, but in drive is what, one tenth of one percent of the time a police dog is in service?

"Social" does not mean timid or weak, it means confident and acclimated to wide experience interacting with human beings, and for the police dog that is the public.

My experience in visiting KNPV clubs is that you could pretty much walk around among the dogs. You certainly do not pet the dogs or in any way make eye contact, but that is just normal good manners, self preservation and common sense.

I will say that I find a lot of the NVBK dogs very handsome and nice looking, I really like a lot of things about them, and only a fool would overlook either the NVBK or KNPV dogs.


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## Bob Scott

I've tried two mal pups and this is the very reason I'll not try again. Nice work in drive but the world was a monster trying to devour them when not in drive. The environmentally weak dog is one of my biggest weaknesses in training besides the fact that I just don't want to bother with it 
No doubt there are good ones, even great ones but *FOR ME* It's not worth the effort. 
My #2 GSD is environmentally sound dog and very responsive yet very handler soft. Also something I prefer to avoid.
It doesn't mean I was a handler killer either. :lol:


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## Michael Murphy

^ im assuming your talking about the nvbk line malinois? no the knpv ones

ps are the nvbk malinois , FCI pedigree malinois or are they also mainly non registered dogs like in the knpv


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