# Handling!



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I have seen alot of posts in the last few months regarding handling.....primarily in the tracking deparment, but other areas as well.

This is not a critique more or less a discussion or thoughts I am curious to here?

Wouldn't you want to sharpen your handing skills prior to further training in any venue/discipline? If the dog knows and understands you prior to encountering a new task, I think it would only improve your outcome and goals? Not busting on anyone in particular, but I know Joby B and Chris M have said themselves that their handing isn't up to par in the tracking department....well if it was do you think you would get better results? 

I believe the handling is just like foundation work in tracking or any other work. I know handling plays a major role in detection, let alone other sports...I think if the dog understands more of what you want and how you want it, you would get better/faster results. I see some really nice dogs that are confused and see if some minor corrections were made as a handler to improve him/herself, the dog could be so much better..

Is handling just taking a backseat, or does handling consist of just holding the leash....curious to see and here what others think?

Thanks


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Of course it would improve your performance. IMHO anyway. 

Learning to read your dog, and know when to put pressure (on the line), leave a little slack and so forth are all skills needed to allow the dog to perform well. 

Take my hound for example.....we run with slight tension on the line, he slows, I slow, he speeds up, I speed up, he turns or casts, I watch for anything I can get hung up on and adjust accordingly, if he is zig-zagging and or circling I hold the line up so that he can pass by me without it getting hung up in his legs and what not. If he dicks off....I either walk up the line and boot him in the ass (major dicking off) or I slap him with the line like when driving a team of horses (minor dicking off) and tell him to get his ass back to work. Funny to watch him when I start hand over handing up that line....he KNOWS!!! LOL

I know Sch tracking is different, but it seems that when I track Ajay, he is about the same.....

I took a line handling class a long time ago and it is something I teach now as well. 

I don't know that you need a leash at all times to handle a dog, just reading and knowing your dog well is SO important. 

They say "things travel through the lead" and I believe that things travel between dog and handler with out the lead as well. Whether it be working, training, or just spending time with the dog in the house or out goofing off. 

Maybe this is what you meant, and maybe it is not, but it is how I interpreted the question.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Is handling just taking a backseat, or does handling consist of just holding the leash....curious to see and here what others think?
> 
> Thanks


I've always felt "handling" was like a good dance partner. A good intinctively knows when to lead and when to follow. A good handler instinctively knows when to lead and when to follow.

DFrost


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I think this is a very interesting topic and look forward to hopefully some positive contribution from peeps.!

I'm quite surprised when I read on here about folks getting a dog, sometimes even their first dog and deciding to train, for example schutzhund. I suppose I regard schH, ring, any kind of bite work as a more advanced discipline for folks who know and have already done a bit with dogs. A qualifier at least, would be able to achieve a reasonable level of ob, and understanding a little about dogs in general.

Giving a novice a dog and a set of instructions is quite novel to my way of thinking, I suppose my thought process is you need to learn to walk before you can run....I relate that directly to dog/horse training. To develop well in a discipline, you have to at least have an understanding of the basics, and that's before we get to any kind of ability or talent in reading animals. Could that be what you are referring to at all ?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I see so much emphasis on the dog in training and the dog is doing fine, but the handler otherwise, just interested to see and here what emphasis is actually placed on handling skills. 

Not saying that you have to get an OB title, it is like reading your dog, corrections, manipulation, knowing when to apply pressure and or loose leash....in all facets of the work.... to see some people work a long line is hilarious.....and some are smooth as silk...but why try to further your dog when your jacked up. Take the time to get right so you can pass it over to the dog.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> To develop well in a discipline, you have to at least have an understanding of the basics, and that's before we get to any kind of ability or talent in reading animals. Could that be what you are referring to at all ?


Sure some of the basics are fine. But I also see a lot of people coming into schutzhund from other dogs sports and there prior experience is a problem. Handling a schutzhund dog is very different than handling an obedience dog and many things that an obedience handler will do, or not do, will screw up the dog. 

If given the choice I would rather work with a complete novice over a person that has experience outside of the sport.


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I think this is a very interesting topic and look forward to hopefully some positive contribution from peeps.!
> 
> I'm quite surprised when I read on here about folks getting a dog, sometimes even their first dog and deciding to train, for example schutzhund. I suppose I regard schH, ring, any kind of bite work as a more advanced discipline for folks who know and have already done a bit with dogs. A qualifier at least, would be able to achieve a reasonable level of ob, and understanding a little about dogs in general.
> 
> Giving a novice a dog and a set of instructions is quite novel to my way of thinking, I suppose my thought process is you need to learn to walk before you can run....I relate that directly to dog/horse training. To develop well in a discipline, you have to at least have an understanding of the basics, and that's before we get to any kind of ability or talent in reading animals. Could that be what you are referring to at all ?



We get a a lot of Newbies at our Sch. club and for many of them it is their first dog or at least their first dog that they are attempting to do any formal training on. I do not see this as a disadvantage as some ( not all) of these people take direction well, do their "homework", and are anxious and receptive to learning and doing well. They come without the preconceived notions that they "know how to do it already" they often become very good handlers very quickly.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Sure some of the basics are fine. But I also see a lot of people coming into schutzhund from other dogs sports and there prior experience is a problem. Handling a schutzhund dog is very different than handling an obedience dog and many things that an obedience handler will do, or not do, will screw up the dog.
> 
> If given the choice I would rather work with a complete novice over a person that has experience outside of the sport.


 
I can appreciate your view here, I was not referring to ob peeps as such although over here that is what seems to be the progression for them.

Are you saying you would rather deal with a dog novice than not, one who liked the idea of a dog for schH over someone who knew and understood a little about dogs and how to train and learn?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Are you saying you would rather deal with a dog novice than not, one who liked the idea of a dog for schH over someone who knew and understood a little about dogs and how to train and learn?


Hell yes!!!! A "little bit of knowledge" can be a terrible thing.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I think it's all about the dog.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Hell yes!!!! A "little bit of knowledge" can be a terrible thing.


Does it mess with the control ???


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> If given the choice I would rather work with a complete novice over a person that has experience outside of the sport.


I agree to a point.....However there are those people that have some knowledge and background that easy to teach, just as there are some people that are just starting with no experience that are NEVER going to make it, no matter how good their dog is. Not fair really to "generalize" all people into dogs.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Does it mess with the control ???


Yes that's part of it. But the biggest thing is that I have never met a person that comes from other sports that dosen't have habits from the old sport that taint the new. It's something that takes years to erase. 

And remember, there are tons of very experanced people in one sport that "are NEVER going to make it, no matter how good their dog is" in a new sport also. :wink:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes that's part of it. But the biggest thing is that I have never met a person that comes from other sports that dosen't have habits from the old sport that taint the new. It's something that takes years to erase.
> 
> And remember, there are tons of very experanced people in one sport that "are NEVER going to make it, no matter how good their dog is" in a new sport also. :wink:


Outlook and approach on both sides has a lot to do with it I suppose, but experience, some understanding of dogs and the familiarity of managing/reading animals can go a lot further.

We had a show on tv here a while back, it was about a guy who decided in his late twenties who really wanted to be a successful show jumper (horses). He managed to get sponsored, get himself a very good horse and very good training, showed great commitment and enthusiasm....what a fkn laughing stock he was :lol:, if you don't have it, you'll not compete with who matters!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Training, handling or teaching, there will always be those who are naturals, those that can learn to be good and some that will never get it.
Watching yourself in video can be a huge help as will learning under a good trainer. 
In Schutzhund the program is always the same. Practice the foos pattern without your dog. Don't go on the field as a beginner and have to think about the foot work AND the dog. Do the jumps, recall etc without your dog. Of course you'll look like a fool out there in the park all by yourself......but that's what dog folks are good at. :wink:
I'm guessing there are a lot of dog sports this could work for. I was doing it in AKC OB 25-30 yrs ago. Still haven't got it right! ](*,)


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Practice the foos pattern without your dog. Don't go on the field as a beginner and have to think about the foot work AND the dog. Do the jumps, recall etc without your dog. Of course you'll look like a fool out there in the park all by yourself......but that's what dog folks are good at. :wink:
> I'm guessing there are a lot of dog sports this could work for. I was doing it in AKC OB 25-30 yrs ago. Still haven't got it right! ](*,)


I used to steward a lot in AKC obedience. One trial I was doing the heeling pattern (with no dog) for the judge. (For those who have never done AKC, the heeling pattern changes, so the judge will call a steward through the pattern so the first dog isn't at a disadvantage.) So after the heeling pattern was done, I said to the judge, "Hey, I got 200!" He said, "Nope, your dog was wide on the about turns."

Funny thing is, that's the problem I was having with my real dog, wide about turns! Turns out it was my fault...bad handling. Lesson learned: Keep your body over your feet.

Laura


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes that's part of it. But the biggest thing is that I have never met a person that comes from other sports that dosen't have habits from the old sport that taint the new. It's something that takes years to erase.
> 
> And remember, there are tons of very experanced people in one sport that "are NEVER going to make it, no matter how good their dog is" in a new sport also. :wink:


I agree! Kind of like telling a former Marine grunt who now is in the Army to Lead a Raid/Ambush.....its the same, but the planning and execution part are a whole lot different....but don't tell that to a Marine! Get the picture?


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