# table training



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Our club wants to do more 'table training' in our bite work program. Short of making up a table ourselves, does anyone know where one might be able to be purchased?? Not sure if this is the correct place for this question. thanks for any tips ahead of time.. Mo


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Maybe you could find something at a thrift store or garage sale? I am thinking like a heavy duty round oak table and just screw or bolt an eye or post in the middle of it? I have also seen some large Patio Tables with an Umbrella pole in the middle that I though would work OK.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Wouldn't you have to cut the legs down if you did that? Most of the training tables I've seen are lower to the ground than a dining room or patio table - the top of the table is at about knee-height or so.


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I think Kyle has the right idea. I have seen this used befor in South Carolina at a course I went to and it worked well. However they had the table elevated about 2 feet higher. This put the dog in a more dominate position. The results were nice.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Just stick the dog on a rickety chair.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

We always have the dog high up, same as what Andy said.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Maybe you could find something at a thrift store or garage sale? I am thinking like a heavy duty round oak table and just screw or bolt an eye or post in the middle of it? I have also seen some large Patio Tables with an Umbrella pole in the middle that I though would work OK.


Not sure what sort of training you think your going to do on a picnic table but you better educate your self and rethink and learn what table training is all about. 
Oh a picnic table ain't going to cut it but that's the least of your worries.](*,)


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Just stick the dog on a rickety chair.


Good god:lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think your best bet would be to make one to proper specifications. It's worth the extra trouble, and will get a lot of use.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

I don't know the spec's you need, but I have a couple wooden spools that I got free from a local electrical company. They are 22" high and 30" wide. They have them bigger but that fits what I need to teach sitz and platz. Maybe you can find something like that.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Not sure what sort of training you think your going to do on a picnic table but you better educate your self and rethink and learn what table training is all about.
> Oh a picnic table ain't going to cut it but that's the least of your worries.](*,)


Trust me, I know what table training is, have done it with a few of my own dogs with several trainers and watched many other dogs. Not sure where you got the "picnic" table idea but have used one in a pinch before at the park. Maybe I should have said LARGE ROUND table for those with limited imagination. :-k


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

{Removed by Admin

Sorry, but after the person's conduct and history with this forum I cannot allow any recommendations for his website or anything related to him.}


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

"but he has several decades of using them."

Did they even have tables in those days? :-D


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> Our club wants to do more 'table training' in our bite work program. Short of making up a table ourselves, does anyone know where one might be able to be purchased?? Not sure if this is the correct place for this question. thanks for any tips ahead of time.. Mo


I agree with mike you need to educate yourself and your club. Table training for bite work. What is the pupose for the use of the table in bite work? A couple free tips #1 elevating the dog does not give the dog more confidence but rather puts a little bit of stress on the dog.#2 The table should be small enough were the dog can stand on it but can't take more than a step and a lunge forward or he will fall off. This will create his personal boundry line.#3 The table itself should have a secure pole in the center as if the dog were on a post so the decoy can rely on it not to move.However decoy has to be experianced enough to know that the whole table itself can move when enough pressure is put on a solid dog and he must be able to judge this.#4 The table should be 3 feet tall or more to ensure the dog has the elevation to instill that drop of fear in him. Fight or flight syndrome. Remember it is all up to the decoy to not ruin the dog so make sure he knows how to properly read a dog. Lumber is faily cheap so I would just make it yourselves. I do offer table training seminars to clubs and would be more than happy to help you and your club out in this matter. My web site is www.mck9.com all my contact info. is on there. Thanks.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

thanks for everyone's input- we wanted to use the table for our dogs that are already trained,are mature and have competed in sports venues.... to add a little bit of stress to our dogs- our club members have traveled north of us to another very good club in our area, who do "table training"...and we enjoyed the sessions training with them...and how our dogs responded and we thought we would also like that option in our club..... we have tried the picnic table( a square and a round one...we even tried the rickety chair..and a rickety table....they ? worked for the time\\/....and added it's own stressors ..:mrgreen:...)but we thought we would try to get one, or make one if we have to, closer to proper specs... Mike C. it is way to hot right now for you to possibly come and do a seminar...but we are always getting new members, different dogs, etc....we may have to bring you to Fla. in the winter and offer a seminar by you here.....I bookmarked your site. Mo....


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bird dog people do this when teaching the "Hold and Bring" commands. I am not wild about it. It puts the dog on a different playing field and has many pros and cons. I don't like the idea of the dog being eye to eye with me. 

There should be a pole with a short lead attached to it and the dog. If the dog tries to escape, a QUICK self created correction takes place, hanging! If used, it should be about 16-20 " wide. FOCUS is the reason, focus on the teacher. If it were so great, why aren't high school kids made to use it? :twisted:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh GOD, here we go with the table crap again.

Yes, get the PP guy to do a seminar, and pay him lots of money, as it is important to do so. I highly recommend this.[-( [-( [-(


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Howard, I haven't seen a dog try to "escape" from the table. Dogs are attached by the harness to the keep them from falling when they fling themselves at the decoy. It's great for targeting too by the way. I have heard of it being used as you described, usally with a toe line for force training "hold and bring" but have never seen it used in that manner myself.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Yep Susan that's the one. I didn't use it with my Giant Schnauzer. I did the "Hold and Bring" in the garage with the doors down. Also used a very short line so Cody had few choices. It took longer but the stress was limited and my bond with the dog remained great.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

If the table is stressful for the dog it must have some weakness in temperament, no? The dog is simply up on a table, whats the big deal unless it has weakness? What do you do on a table that can't be accomplished with a backtie? I don't claim to understand the whole table thing but if it adds that much to the biting it must be a nerve thing which is fine but just call it what it is, not every dog is 100% and it shouldn't be a reflection of the owner, i really believe that's the unsaid part of the table training debate. I have one dog that would do much better on a table because he's weak and i have one that it don't matter what the hell he's on, he works the same, he has a strong temperament so it boils down to simply temperament,
AL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*building a table*



Mike charatin said:


> Table training for bite work. What is the pupose for the use of the table in bite work?




I thought the thread was about building a table.

The use of it has been covered to death here, including one twenty-one-page thread.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

There has been three different tables that have been talked about on this thread.
1- Defence table (square)
2- Round table used for many things including targeting, outing, firm grips, on and on.
3- Forced retrieve table ( which a lot of bird dog trainers use )

Each are built differently. Which one is in question???????


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> There has been three different tables that have been talked about on this thread.
> 1- Defence table (square)
> 2- Round table used for many things including targeting, outing, firm grips, on and on.
> 3- Forced retrieve table ( which a lot of bird dog trainers use )
> ...


I am wondering what the shape of the table has to do with anything? :roll:


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> If the table is stressful for the dog it must have some weakness in temperament, no? The dog is simply up on a table, whats the big deal unless it has weakness? What do you do on a table that can't be accomplished with a backtie? I don't claim to understand the whole table thing but if it adds that much to the biting it must be a nerve thing which is fine but just call it what it is, not every dog is 100% and it shouldn't be a reflection of the owner, i really believe that's the unsaid part of the table training debate. I have one dog that would do much better on a table because he's weak and i have one that it don't matter what the hell he's on, he works the same, he has a strong temperament so it boils down to simply temperament,
> AL


Al dont be so closed minded. Think about the concept. The dog is not only being agitated but he is elevated and there is a considerable drop in front of him[not that you would let him fall off becouse you are holding the harness] It is one thing to tie a dog to a pole where he is on stable ground and agitate him.It is another to elevate and restrict his movement both forward as well as side to side.I know of many people like yourself that dont condone the table work or make excuses like it is for week nerve dogs becouse of the fact that you can ruin a dog really easy doing table work if you apply to much pressure to soon. I dont care how hard your dog is he would and will benifit from using the table properly.So please do a little more research about propper table training for the benefit of your dog as well as you.Thanks.


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: building a table*



Connie Sutherland said:


> I thought the thread was about building a table.
> 
> The use of it has been covered to death here, including one twenty-one-page thread.


Sorry I could not controll myself. It was the responces that got to me.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: building a table*



Mike charatin said:


> Sorry I could not controll myself. It was the responces that got to me.


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/table-training-2804/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/defense-table-634/


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: building a table*



Connie Sutherland said:


> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/table-training-2804/
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/defense-table-634/


Point taken.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> If the table is stressful for the dog it must have some weakness in temperament, no? The dog is simply up on a table, whats the big deal unless it has weakness? What do you do on a table that can't be accomplished with a backtie? I don't claim to understand the whole table thing but if it adds that much to the biting it must be a nerve thing which is fine but just call it what it is, not every dog is 100% and it shouldn't be a reflection of the owner, i really believe that's the unsaid part of the table training debate. I have one dog that would do much better on a table because he's weak and i have one that it don't matter what the hell he's on, he works the same, he has a strong temperament so it boils down to simply temperament,
> AL


Al what's the stress on the table? You take the dog out of its natural element. Ever do carpentry work? Standing free on a 12' wall and pulling up 12' 2x8 ceiling joists? Or doing it 2 stories up? Weakness you ask isn't it. Fear of the unknown is better. No different for a dog...

Bird dog people typically don't backtie. The forced "hold and bring" is done by some as a most hard way to train. Some put heavy lines to the toe and pull, others use bottle caps on the ear for an ear pinch, lines on the balls...you name it. It isn't training, it's the same stuff waterboarding is called! ](*,) 

It is a little like using an e-collar. If done in good hands and with wise trainers, great mileage can become of it. Strong temperament? Or is it strong willed? Splitting hairs on this one. I like bold, but I have to have results, I say you do! :-k  Any how Al that's my spin. Have a great weekend..........


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The forced retrieve table is also used as an artical indication table for sch. tracking


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

I think Jerry had a good point. There are multiple tables for multiple uses.

The small sqaure high one is used differently than the low, big round one.

The tracking table is the long one, which I have seen as a forced retreive one. Same as in labs?


I have seen a top dog being retrained on the low, round one to teach the barking. Dog showed much better the next year - the natural aggression was not there. Used for dogs that have the aggression that do the silent hold.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

(just because I can) When you own a dog that needs drive building or "table" training, you need to consider another dog. For me, any dog that needs the kind of work that is done on a table ALL of which can be done on the ground, and NONE of which is necessary is probably not the dog for me. [-X 

I personally think it is more for the insecure handler than it is for anything else, an "OOOOO look at my dog" sort of useless display. :-k 

Think about it, if you have to do all this to get a "toothy" response from your dog.........Sing it with me, JUUUUUNNNNNKER\\/


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jerry: Do you utilize all three or do you find yourself using one in particular?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike, it's not that i condone or not condone table training, i just posted my thoughts on it. If it works for your dogs then have at it.

Howard, my first 6 yrs as a tradesmen was as an ironworker, lol.
If my dog is afraid cause he's up on a table then it would be a temperament flaw, because the dog is simply up on a table. This is just my opinion and i'm not trying to change anybodys mind


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Use all three of course in depends on what we are looking for.

Jeff, the defense table we also use for the dog that has way to much defense. We will use that table to teach him to control that defense that he has. Think about a mean ass dog. It is no good unless you put him in a junk yard and just leave him there. There has been a lot of dogs that have been discarded because of too much defense. Why not teach the dog to control it and then have a good dog.

Sorry off topic again.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Al, think about this for a second. 
In battle you seek the advantage. Advantage is higher ground. The dog being up high don't scare him it gives him more confidence. I will agree that it does scare some dogs. Jeff is talking about dogs that don't need to be there. There are dogs that just need to be shown that they do have a quality they don't know that they have. If you bring it out and the dog understands that he can use it. This will be a nice dog.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I promise I won't talk about table training again, I am off topic. My bad.
Size of tables only.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Our place is always open for folks that want to learn how to use......Oh I mean how to build a table......:-D


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