# WDF Korung



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Since the first day I became a member of this board 4 years ago, the discussion of which sport has the best dogs, is more real and so forth has often popped up. So I suggest we should have a Korung Exam. A one day event with only a couple of different scenarios. 

Maybe we can have it at the Gathering? Anybody interested?


----------



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I would be interested when or if there's a gathering a little closer to home. I think it would be a lot of fun.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What do you have in mind ??


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Lets keep it simple--we can have the 3 different levels (handlers choice) I dont know how about... level 1 with a hard sleeve and level 2 and 3 with a suit. No personal protection or car jacking--just something like the actual Korung. Handler doesnt know whats going to happen until you show up at the field and send your dog. No points just rate the dog on the Korung scale 1-10. I have a basic idea of the test but if someone with more knowledge can, please pipe up. 3 judges that know what to look for and no bias. Also if you judge you cant handle a dog in it.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

lets put money on it. The winner takes the pot.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Will,

Isn't there a non bitework portion to a Korung as well? Is that only in the 1? I seem to remember the dog having to climb over colapsing boxes or something weird for a toy in one vid...something that shows the dogs temperment when not in high drive for a bite? Maybe I remember incorrectly?


----------



## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

can someone explain what a korung is? is this like the 1st gen of ufc? when joyce went up against kimo?


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

great idea! =D>


We need vids too please.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

chris--I dont know about betting on it but how about a WDF CUP. You get to keep it for a year-take funky pictures with it--take it to all kinds of dog events and post the pics. The following year who ever gets it gets their dogs name on it and so on and so on.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> chris--I dont know about betting on it but how about a WDF CUP. You get to keep it for a year-take funky pictures with it--take it to all kinds of dog events and post the pics. The following year who ever gets it gets their dogs name on it and so on and so on.


A cup doesn't put groceries on the table but a few dollars do. It doesn't have to be a high dollar thing, maybe $10 - $50 per dog. I would rather go there and come back know that I was able to pay for a portion of my trip. There is money in a lot of the other dog sports. There's money in horses but not in what we do. 

I probably don't have a chance at beating any of you guy but a few dollars at stake makes it more serious for all involved.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> 3 judges that know what to look for and no bias. Also if you judge you cant handle a dog in it.


Not to mention the dog can't have a decoy that he has worked on a million times before either....unknown decoys for ALL dogs.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Let's do this at The Gathering. Someone that don't bring a dog can judge.

Money sounds good but let's keep it fun. For $10.00 you'll get more participation = more money in the long run.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

yes unknown decoys for all

But again lets keep it simple--man and environment vs dog (handller is only there for support)


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gosh. Reading this forum is sometimes grueling. I wish I had a dog to work, these events sound like a great opportunity and just plain fun! I feel like the poor kid in class on Valentine's Day.


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

I'm all in, BTW will your new pup looks wicked will


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Sounds good to me. Lets make it to where only the judges and decoys know what scenario will take place per dog team. This will make it fair to who ever enters, so know one will know what to train for beforehand. Wait a minute, will a decoy be able to enter his/her dog?? Or are we going to have people who didn't bring a dog decoy as well as judge?


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

let's talk about money. I want to beat all of you sorry ****ers, take your money and then blow it all on you guys by buying round of drinks.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

You are a ****ing dreamer.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You are a ****ing dreamer.


No I'm a musician with a wild imagination but thanks.\\/


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Anybody have more info on the DMC korung?


----------



## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Be tough to gamble on something like that. It's a test (DMC Korung). I would enjoy decoying for something like that.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> No I'm a musician with a wild imagination but thanks.\\/


I betcha I can scream louder than you when I get bit, sans amp :lol:


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I betcha I can scream louder than you when I get bit, sans amp :lol:


most sissies do.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> most sissies do.


fukin ouch, you are a bad ass =D>


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris, we probably have more interests in common than conflicts.

I really love blues and Jazz, Friday nights and saturdays on ckua.com there are very nice blues programs..you should check them out.

I can see you're not the sensitive type,I really love you man.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

go ahead and say it all ready...."chris...I wish I knew how to quit you"


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> go ahead and say it all ready...."chris...I wish I knew how to quit you"


Ok, but in a manly way...Chris can't say that.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

good luck with this guys would be great to see some video when its all over


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

We will talk about this at training, are you coming up Will? We start at 10 am.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Work Sats. see you thursday


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That will work.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Maybe we can get some of the SDC guys that aren't bring a dog or not going to compete to evaluate this. I'm going to compete with Reba (GSD), she's going to take all of your money. Bring those Mals on.


----------



## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

I would like some more info on how it would be structured and judged


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That will be up to who is going to do it. This should be a surprise to all that compete. A fun thing.


----------



## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree yet I need to know the perameters, like full body or sleeve, what is being tested obdience agility tracking bitework or just one or two of them that kinda thing


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Wayne...it's a secret. That way you can't train for it. How cool is that?:lol:

My boy isn't in the running but I might give it a go anyway. His training been neglected, thats why I'm bringing him.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Why can't we do two types, one for sleeve dogs and one for suit dogs. The ten dollars will be paid for either. Two different pots.

Wayne you know what equipment we have so maybe you and Howard can get together and come up with something. We have a hell house and a car and the like. I think you two would do well at this.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Why can't we do two types, one for sleeve dogs and one for suit dogs. The ten dollars will be paid for either. Two different pots.
> 
> Wayne you know what equipment we have so maybe you and Howard can get together and come up with something. We have a hell house and a car and the like. I think you two would do well at this.



I think the dog should be prepared for either. The participants should NOT have the option. I also think there should be several equal scenarios and exercises but in different orders that participants pull from a hat. The dogs are taught to deal with pressure so lets put a bit of pressure on the handler as well.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Wayne Dodge said:


> I agree yet I need to know the perameters, like full body or sleeve, what is being tested obdience agility tracking bitework or just one or two of them that kinda thing



I think tracking should be left out of is since not all disciplines train for it. Otherwise, anything goes...this can be a "contest" as well as an exercise to see where we all have holes in our training.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I think the dog should be prepared for either. The participants should NOT have the option. I also think there should be several equal scenarios and exercises but in different orders that participants pull from a hat. The dogs are taught to deal with pressure so lets put a bit of pressure on the handler as well.


Man I wish I could go . I have one more homicide case I'm on call for during this time .

Chris I think the problem I see is the time left to train for it , coupled with the poor decoy wearing a sleeve who encounters a bitesuit dog trained primarily on something other then the arm .


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I think the dog should be prepared for either. The participants should NOT have the option.


I think you are asking for some decoys to get hurt if they try to work a suit dog with a sleeve only. Especially if they aren't making a presentation, which in this type of test I don't think they should be.

Sounds like a ton of fun, wish I could be there. I definitely want to see videos when it's all over.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think you are asking for some decoys to get hurt if they try to work a suit dog with a sleeve only. Especially if they aren't making a presentation, which in this type of test I don't think they should be.
> 
> Sounds like a ton of fun, wish I could be there. I definitely want to see videos when it's all over.


Don't know what to say. I'm not claiming to be anything, I don't claim to have great dogs, I don't claim to be any kind of dog trainer nor do I claim to even have a chance to "win" anything. However, I will claim that my dogs are trained on the suit and the sleeve because my basic mentality to cross train as much as I can.

So... if you're not a "complete" trainer nor do you have a "complete" dog, I guess you can't enter. That's how I see it. Something like this should be for the best of the best. Just my two cents.


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

From page 2>

"decoy + environment VS dog, handler is only there for support"

What more needs to be said?


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> From page 2>
> 
> "decoy + environment VS dog, handler is only there for support"
> 
> What more needs to be said?



then why not just do a monido trial?


----------



## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree yet I need to know the perameters, like full body or sleeve, what is being tested obdience agility tracking bitework or just one or two of them that kinda thing


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Wayne Dodge said:


> I agree yet I need to know the perameters, like full body or sleeve, what is being tested obdience agility tracking bitework or just one or two of them that kinda thing



Wayne, what's the big deal? Just train for "everything" the holes in your training and dog will be as exposed as much as mine and any other participant. 

I like the idea of a completely blind test. Kind of like being ambushed on the street and hoping your dog will help. You can plan for that stuff so you just have to be ready.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

This Gathering is for all venues. All venues don't have suit work so we must seperate so all can enjoy. Sleeve and suit. Suit, upper body or lower body.

First to test for courage and the willingness to engage a threat. A lot of pressure, screaming, stick hits. gun fire etc....

Tracking should be out for we all don't do it. Detection should be out for the same reason. Formal OB out as well. This should look real. 

Just my $.02


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I guess what I had in mind would best be described as a "IPO courage test at a mondio trial with a french ring barrage"

I suggested earlier--Level 1 with a sleeve (for those that dont train on a suit) Level 2 should be the same test as level one but with a suit(for those that arent really sure how a dog will handle something not in there training) and Level 3 in suit for those that are ready to challenge the dog's ability and their training.

Just my thoughts on it.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> This Gathering is for all venues. All venues don't have suit work so we must seperate so all can enjoy. Sleeve and suit. Suit, upper body or lower body.
> 
> First to test for courage and the willingness to engage a threat. A lot of pressure, screaming, stick hits. gun fire etc....
> 
> ...



with all of those stipulations, there is no point


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> Don't know what to say. I'm not claiming to be anything, I don't claim to have great dogs, I don't claim to be any kind of dog trainer nor do I claim to even have a chance to "win" anything. However, I will claim that my dogs are trained on the suit and the sleeve because my basic mentality to cross train as much as I can.
> 
> So... if you're not a "complete" trainer nor do you have a "complete" dog, I guess you can't enter. That's how I see it. Something like this should be for the best of the best. Just my two cents.


I'm not sure I get where you are coming from. Are you saying your dogs are so sleeve sure, even though they have done suit work also, that if they are sent for a bite, the sleeve is obstructed because of the environmental variables, or the angle the dog approaches, etc that they will hunt for the sleeve and not just grab the first thing they can? IMO this is the only type of dog that should be doing this type of test on a sleeve. Any dog that will take what they can, if they can't see or access the sleeve, should be doing these tests on a suit for the safety of the decoy.

I've trained my dogs on both suit and sleeve, which is exactly why I wouldn't do this type of test on a sleeve, because I know my dogs may just take what they can get, and that might be a leg, or the non-sleeve arm, etc. And if the decoy has to present the sleeve to make sure the dog will bite it, then it's taking away some of the testing aspect, it's hard for a decoy to go 110% testing the dog, when they are worried about making sure the dog bites in the right spot.

If you want to remove the neccessity of equipment related targeting, send the dogs in a muzzle  You would still need to do some bites IMO, I don't think you can have a korung type of test without looking at bite quality. But you could have some fun scenarios with the dogs in the muzzle


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm just tossing out ideas... 






Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm not sure I get where you are coming from. Are you saying your dogs are so sleeve sure, even though they have done suit work also, that if they are sent for a bite, the sleeve is obstructed because of the environmental variables, or the angle the dog approaches, etc that they will hunt for the sleeve and not just grab the first thing they can? IMO this is the only type of dog that should be doing this type of test on a sleeve. Any dog that will take what they can, if they can't see or access the sleeve, should be doing these tests on a suit for the safety of the decoy.
> 
> I've trained my dogs on both suit and sleeve, which is exactly why I wouldn't do this type of test on a sleeve, because I know my dogs may just take what they can get, and that might be a leg, or the non-sleeve arm, etc. And if the decoy has to present the sleeve to make sure the dog will bite it, then it's taking away some of the testing aspect, it's hard for a decoy to go 110% testing the dog, when they are worried about making sure the dog bites in the right spot.
> 
> If you want to remove the neccessity of equipment related targeting, send the dogs in a muzzle  You would still need to do some bites IMO, I don't think you can have a korung type of test without looking at bite quality. But you could have some fun scenarios with the dogs in the muzzle


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Wayne, what's the big deal? Just train for "everything" the holes in your training and dog will be as exposed as much as mine and any other participant.


Including tracking and/or article searches?! Hmmmm


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Including tracking and/or article searches?! Hmmmm



I remember being in college and there would be 100pt mathematics test. I remember being all bummed out with getting a ridiculously low score like a 9/100 and it was still a C/B- 

So I got to thinking this WDF Korung could be something that is pretty damn difficult for most people but it's really designed to show US as trainers where we have holes in our training and dogs. I also think it will stop some of the shit talk between the sport because you and the dog will know just how hard or easy these other disciplines are.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Chris what stipulations are you talking about? 

Tracking, my dog will track, detection, my dog will do that. OB oh yes my dog will do that too.

How about the people with dogs that don't do all that? They want to have fun too and should. 

Sleeve for schutzhund folks, suit for others. Alot of pressure on all.

I'm going to win anyway, no big deal. LOL


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Who knows...this might even turn into a real breed suitability test. For the people interested in breeding... this might give you chance to see some good or bad dogs you would not see otherwise.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Chris what stipulations are you talking about?
> 
> Tracking, my dog will track, detection, my dog will do that. OB oh yes my dog will do that too.
> 
> ...


Having fun is one thing. The event should be about that. 

But the KORUNG... that should be for anyone who wants to participate, If your dog can't do it then so be it, but at least you will know where you and your dog stacks up vs others. Like a said, use it as an event to expose holes in training, handling and the dog. Nobody is perfect and if all you want is an event for everyone to feel good about themselves then start telling me about my movie star good looks. 

**** sugar coating anything, there can be stuff for fun but let's have a real competition where shit talkers (myself included) are exposed for their own good. I also think it will cut down on the sparing between the sports.

We can have tracking and detection if you want. Neither of my dogs do detection so I would get a zero in that portion. My Rottie is a great tracker and I've been doing a lot of VST stuff with him but my Mal absolutely sucks at tracking so that's another area where I will be exposed. However, both of my dogs are good at other things where others might be completely exposed. Then of course there will be participants that can do the whole thing. I have no problem for a guy like that to win a few bucks. 

The one thing that I don't like about the biting sports is there is no money, not like there is with other dog sports and horses etc....


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

How do you figure being fair to the different dog venues is sugar coating?

Schutzhund dogs ( in most cases ) don't bite suits. Having fun should be for all. Tell me you won't have fun, win or lose. If their dog won't bite a suit how is that fun for them. What's the big deal? Two different sections , suit or sleeve. Will said Level 1 or Level 2 even maybe a three will lots of pressure. Yes it will be fun and some bragging rights as well as a good look at maybe a breeding partner.

The bragging of my sport is better than your sport, is having fun. People do this for the most part just to get a rise out of someone, ask Jeff. People train in the sport that is best for them and they will tell you theirs is the best. The same with the breed of dog. GSD are the best dogs , just ask me. LOL I'm telling you all, I will win this because I have the best breed and the better dog than anyone. I'm putting my money up. All of you that think their's is better then take my money.( This is to inspire more people to get in.)


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> How do you figure being fair to the different dog venues is sugar coating?
> 
> Schutzhund dogs ( in most cases ) don't bite suits. Having fun should be for all. Tell me you won't have fun, win or lose. If their dog won't bite a suit how is that fun for them. What's the big deal? Two different sections , suit or sleeve. Will said Level 1 or Level 2 even maybe a three will lots of pressure. Yes it will be fun and some bragging rights as well as a good look at maybe a breeding partner.
> 
> The bragging of my sport is better than your sport, is having fun. People do this for the most part just to get a rise out of someone, ask Jeff. People train in the sport that is best for them and they will tell you theirs is the best. The same with the breed of dog. GSD are the best dogs , just ask me. LOL I'm telling you all, I will win this because I have the best breed and the better dog than anyone. I'm putting my money up. All of you that think their's is better then take my money.( This is to inspire more people to get in.)



I have two schH and they will bite a suit or a sleeve. How is it anyone's problem if they don't train dog for other things. If the dog is trained properly, it should care what it bites. If they don't want to participate in the korung then they can do other thing or do the korung next time. It's expected there will be plenty of other things for people to do if they don't want to be a part of the korung.

Think of it as the Kumite for dog sports. Karate vs Karate isn't as exciting as Karate vs Monkey Style Kung fu. 

The Korung is only ONE thing that should happen at the gathering. If the schH folk are afraid to do other things then they can stick to schH stuff, the same goes for the Ring people. Only the best trainers and the best dogs will win.

By sugar coating, I mean what is the point of watering down an event just so everybody can participate? That kind of crap is already happening in sports like schH so that anybody can do it. Make the korung for only the most dedicated of trainers.


----------



## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Chris, I‘m guessing we don’t see eye to eye when it comes to dog and decoy safety. Anyone that actually knows me will tell you for sure I train in many different environments and scenarios. I am not nor have I ever been a one sport or style kinda guy, I ask about the parameters of the contest so I know whether or not it will be safe for my dog and the decoy. As an example I would not enter my dogs if it was going to be a sleeve style event, my dogs might take the sleeve yet more then likely they are going to ignore it and make contact center mass not locking in on equipment. In turn I could care less what Jerry decides to do in the scenarios themselves, I trust his ability in that completely, I want to know what the parameters are to know whether or not it is safe for my dogs training history.

I would like to see something that revolves around a test of a street worthy type dog, not a test concerning particular exercises from any given sport yet a meshing of the different sports and real street type work. For example:

A scenario that revolves around a courage type test, a ton of mental and physical pressure brought in a forward aggressive manner.

A scenario that involves muzzle work, no decoy gear at all, I would recommend keeping the dog on leash though for safety reasons with such a mixed group of training styles and experience.

A scenario that involves the handler and canines ability to work through an obstacle / or problem together, a monster of a dog is Great yet only if he can be handled is he worth anything.

Just my take yet you do three different exercises and combine scores for a winner.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

When I hear Chris describe what he would like to see, I envision a well rounded PSD which should handle any scenario thrown at it. No big deal right?....if you have a PSD.

Then....I fully understand where Wayne is coming from. He is concerned about safety more than the dogs' performance. So...in a perfect world we would go by Chris' rules (which I personally like BTW) but we have to be realistic too. 

Chris....anything less than what you want to do should be a cake walk for you. You can win the level 1 and 2, then buy us all a COUPLE of rounds.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think there are two different schools of thought being thrown out here. I think both have merit and both would be a ton of fun to participate in, but they are different.

When I see the word "korung", I think of a test of the dog. I believe that's what it's intended to be, regardless of the country it's being held in. It's about testing the dogs character, drives, grip and in some cases conformance to the standard. Some basic training is required, but the dogs aren't doing things like a guard of object, or exercises that require a high level of training. If a dogs nose is to be tested then it's geared more towards a "natural" test (free searching for an object or person) vs a trained test (Sch style tracking, which tests the dogs nose but also it's training). 

The other type of competition I see being described tests everything. The dogs abilities, but also the handlers not just as a handler but as a trainer. Basically a test to see whose dog not only has character but the most all round training and abilities. If only Cali was younger 

Like I said, I think both have merit, but I also think this is where some of the differences in what people are posting comes from.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Chris....anything less than what you want to do should be a cake walk for you. You can win the level 1 and 2, then buy us all a COUPLE of rounds.


Shit, there's no way I would win with what I am describing but I wouldn't be adding to the thread if I only suggested that we do things I know my dog can handle. I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Wayne Dodge said:


> Chris, I‘m guessing we don’t see eye to eye when it comes to dog and decoy safety.


Be truthful Wayne, this issue is, you've already passed judgment on me and your opinion of what I do and suggest is tainted.

Working with an experienced decoy and an experienced dog is as a safe as you can get. If you have a good foundation on your training then the scenario shouldn't matter right? If we're to test training, handling and the quality of the dog then unscripted or a handler blind scenario is best. Training for the scenarios only makes it a training routine and if you want that then go play in the schH world.


----------



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Why not have 6 different scenarios predetemined to give people a little time to prepare. On the day of the event each competitor will randomly draw which one or two they are going to do.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Why not have 6 different scenarios predetemined to give people a little time to prepare. On the day of the event each competitor will randomly draw which one or two they are going to do.



then it becomes a routine. If you keep up on your stuff and have a good foundation then why the need to prepare for anything? 

If I'm going to bring my dogs, to Lowes, I just do it, I don't have to prepare because I know what he's capable of. I know he's not going to piss all over anything. I know he's not going to bark a people. I know he's not going to pull me down the isles. I know if the dog is sitting there while I'm checking out and somebody starts to pet him, I not going to freak out because I know my dog is fine with being petted in social situations. If I wasn't sure of that stuff then I wouldn't bring my dog to a public place like Lowes. I do I know the dog is going to be fine? Because he has a good foundation and I'm in tune with his abilities.

I'm a musician and often find myself comparing practicing music to training my dog. I could at a moments notice be asked to fly to LA, Chicago, Minneapolis or NYC to do a session. If I told them I need to prepare first, they would never call me again and I would lose a few hundred dollars. If I go watch a live band and somebody notices me and invites me to sit in, I don't say no, I'm not prepared... I just get up and play and if I make a mistake, then I do but it gives me something to work on so I don't make it again. Why do I not have fear with sitting in on ambiguous situations? Because I have a solid foundation in music and performance.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Reading this discussion reminds me of words I've used at most demos I've been a part of on both my military and civilian career. I've been asked a million times (perhaps a slight exaggeration) if the dogs were trained to go for the arm. My answer has always been; "No ma'am/sir, the decoy is trained to put the arm in the dog's mouth.".

DFrost


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You have to decide if you are going to test training or the dog. If you are testing the dog, then for example, the Sch dog will have to bite the guy in a suit. If the dog cannot figure to bite the PRESENTED arm, then you sorta know what kind of dog you have in that example.

Fun is cute and all, but you put out the word Korung, and it doesn't apply. A dog that likes to bite, and fight is gonna figure out that the guy threatening him needs to be bitten, OR, you will know what your dog is.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I dont think with the people that are hosting or going the dog or decoy will be at any serious risk. I hope people can use this as a gauge of their dog and training. At the same time have fun and some bragging rights. lets not get crazy about it because then it will just plain suck

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


----------



## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Chris, I should have guessed you would feel this way. I have not passed judgment on you, hell I don’t even know you, I base my comments on what you put out there yourself.

I do not want this to become a scripted group of scenarios, I am simply looking to make sure it is done safely for all who enter. I am voicing my concerns so that no one or no dog gets hurt in the process by ignorance. You say a well trained dog takes what is offered sleeve or suit, I say a well trained dog goes in picks his target and takes what offers the most advantage in a fight. In turn you can not send a man dog down field on a decoy wearing only a sleeve and expect everything to go well, I won’t put a decoy in that predicament.

I play in many sand boxes, I currently have a 4 month old pup in training for SchH and I am proud of it. 

In turn I will offer up my decoy services if needed for the competition, unless that would disqualify me from the Korung, then I would just decoy the other days if needed.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

This Korung thing is right up the PSD's alley. Police officers have all kinds of time to train (if they're not lazy) their dog to do all sorts of things that are not routine. Scenario training is the order of the day so any well rounded PSD (or highly trained civillian dog with a very adaptable training regiment) is going to do well. Dogs that are trained for specific sport routines are possibly not going to do well.

PSDs have...muzzle work, suit, sleeve, covert sleeve, tracking, articles, buildings OB etc etc. that they need to do at the drop of a hat in all kinds of strange situations under varying degrees of stress. A good PSD team will train for this on a regular basis so there are no surprises on the street when the real thing happens. The Korung is just another training scenario for them that they probably have seen before...or a variation thereof. Just sayin'.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Wayne Dodge said:


> Chris, I should have guessed you would feel this way. I have not passed judgment on you, hell I don’t even know you, I base my comments on what you put out there yourself.


In other words, you've passed judgment on me and your comments towards me are biased. Whatever.:roll:


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> This Korung thing is right up the PSD's alley. Police officers have all kinds of time to train (if they're not lazy) their dog to do all sorts of things that are not routine. Scenario training is the order of the day so any well rounded PSD (or highly trained civillian dog with a very adaptable training regiment) is going to do well. Dogs that are trained for specific sport routines are possibly not going to do well.
> 
> PSDs have...muzzle work, suit, sleeve, covert sleeve, tracking, articles, buildings OB etc etc. that they need to do at the drop of a hat in all kinds of strange situations under varying degrees of stress. A good PSD team will train for this on a regular basis so there are no surprises on the street when the real thing happens. The Korung is just another training scenario for them that they probably have seen before...or a variation thereof. Just sayin'.


Right!! That's exactly my line of thinking. I can't tell you the times I've heard protection people tell less informed people they train their dogs like Police K9s if they are not telling people their dogs are BETTER trained than Police K9s.

I grew up around Police K9s, so that's the foundation for my line of thinking. I remember being a kid and seeing my Uncle's PSD, I would ask what he was trained for and the answer was always "He's trained to handle anything"


----------



## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> In other words, you've passed judgment on me and your comments towards me are biased. Whatever.:roll:


If you keep up this stupidity how am I not supposed to form a negative opinion.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Wayne Dodge said:


> If you keep up this stupidity how am I not supposed to form a negative opinion.



Um, you already have so agree that people do things differently than you and also understand that we are all at different levels in the dog world. I'm just being rational here. 

I'll buy a beer or two if we ever met. I've got no beef with you, but I will call you out if you continue to mix words like you have.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Wayne Dodge said:


> You say a well trained dog takes what is offered sleeve or suit, I say a well trained dog goes in picks his target and takes what offers the most advantage in a fight. In turn you can not send a man dog down field on a decoy wearing only a sleeve and expect everything to go well, I won’t put a decoy in that predicament.


I have warned 4 people at events about NOT suiting up for 2 dogs in particular.

I was told by one guy that he can look at the dogs eyes and see where he is going, and by all that they can get any dog to bite what is offered. I have also had 2 event organizers say it is the decoys job to not get bit, so why worry about it if they don't suit up, and I was a spectator, I just knew the dogs.

The 2 dogs were not sport dogs, and out of the 4 guys, 3 got bit.

2 in the crotch, one in the chest over the sleeve. 2 right under the sleeve, 1 right over..

I would say the training was good


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How are you suiting up if you are wearing a sleeve ??


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How are you suiting up if you are wearing a sleeve ??


sleeve and scratch pants for a dog that wants the man.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I would also have some conserns about not knowing a basic outline of what was being done.
For example, I have seen several dogs that simply would go around a sleeve just like they would go around a trash can lid to bite the decoy in the leg or the back. I myself would not feel comfortable working Wayne's dog with only a sleeve as I have seen his dog work and seen the way they train with him. I have also worked him myself and he is a very hard dog to put where you want him......he tends to go where he thinks he can do you the most harm, not usually the same place each time.
I have a dog here now that will simply not go to the upper body on a face attack, he is a leg dog and he would be very difficult for a decoy that does not know him to put him on a sleeve.
Also, none of my dogs are trained for an esquive, and many of them are big flyers and it would simply be too dangerous for those dogs to work on a decoy that was going to esquive them. So if I were a potential competitor I myself would at least have to know if esquives were allowed and if a sleeve were going to be used.
I think some basic information such as that is reasonable and fair.
It would be a shame to get a decoy bit in the leg trying to work a dog that has been trained not to bite the arm. It would also be a bigger shame to break a dogs leg because he left the ground from 20 feet away and the decoy stepped out of his way and the dog went crashing into a pile because he was never trained to slow down.
I can tell you that a sleeve test and an esquive would be enough to fail many great dogs in this WDF test.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Pm's sent out. If you got one call me. ASAP


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mike, I really doubt that a dog will break a leg simply because the decoy moved out of the way. You can solve this problem by having the decoy move back and forth as the dog is coming in. 

Dogs learn pretty fast, and not thinking that the dog can figure out for himself that the guy MIGHT move is bad training. 

The leg dog is an obvious concern, as if the decoy assumed that he was upper body, he could go down in a heap.

All these things should be discussed ahead of time, and maybe a bunch of obstacles to slow the dog down and get them thinking..... if that is possible.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I certainly would be concerned for my dogs safety if the decoy just stood there and let my dog pile up on him or were to side step or pull and let him fly buy and end up in a pile20 rows deep in the corn field.
It will be tough to figure out some common ground event


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike, I really doubt that a dog will break a leg simply because the decoy moved out of the way. You can solve this problem by having the decoy move back and forth as the dog is coming in.
> 
> Dogs learn pretty fast, and not thinking that the dog can figure out for himself that the guy MIGHT move is bad training.
> 
> ...


 While I have never seen a KNPV trained dog break his leg on a frontal bite that the decoy esquived him on. I have seen more than one leave the field limping after this was done. The problem is that many of the KNPV dogs are so imprinted in launching like airplanes to the bicep of the man that is in the same place everytime and they learn that the target will never move. The first time that a decoy side steps a dog that is airborn like that, the dog turns his head to try to follow the target, when his head turns his body turns and he lands at a 90 degree angle to the direction of flight......this is VERY hard on legs.
I know that a dog that is programmed to fly into a target that never moves is not ideal in the real world, but to esquive a dog like that is not fair either.
I am not picking fights for my own dog here, but I think I have one or two dogs that have nerves, courage, aggression, toughness, fight drive and power that will compare to any dog out there. But my grandmother can make Arko miss because he is airborn for 2 seconds before he gets to you, so he is very easy to esquive. I would never enter Arko into a competition where esquives were allowed.
I have sold some very strong dogs to members of this forum who would have a good chance at this competition depending on the rules.
James Mackey's Diesle, Greg Whelehen's Brico, Mike Ritland's Dingo, Falco, and Castor, Drew Pierce's Lanzo, Wade Morrel's Lilo to name only a few..........all are very strong dogs that could easily be made to look stupid by esquiving them. This is just not something that they have been trained for.
If the idea of this "Korung" is to test for the best quality fo dog, then I think the test must be fair and allow every type of dog to play. 
Jeff, you like Spike a lot I know (as do I for he is an exceptional dog) but how easy would it be to make him look silly by esquiving him. It just scares the hell out of me to think about a 90 lb dog flying that fast and landing sideways.
SO my point is that dogs like Spike for example would not be entered into this test even though I feel as though some dogs like that are more than qualified to be used.
Or maybe I should should just agree than if my dog is not trained for esquives then I am a poor trainer.


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I have no dog in this fight so to speak but it seems to me that the esquive issue is one of training and agility.

If you guys are testing a dog on it's heart and courage then why would this be in issue? The decoy should be trying to run the dog off the field with pressure, not dodge his attempts at a bite.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> I have no dog in this fight so to speak but it seems to me that the esquive issue is one of training and agility.
> 
> If you guys are testing a dog on it's heart and courage then why would this be in issue? The decoy should be trying to run the dog off the field with pressure, not dodge his attempts at a bite.


An esquive can be very useful in testing a dogs commitment to the bite. There are many dogs, that given a full head of steam running down the field, will blow through the obstacles put in front of them. Be it environmental, a baton barrage, hit from a KNPV stick, etc. Esquive that dog though, take all his speed away, so now he has to turn around and come back into a decoy who isn't that far away, but is still putting up the same amount of threat, and the dog doesn't have all his built up speed anymore, and you will see some dogs hesitate or even not engage. 

How hard a dog will work to get the bite can tell you as much about aspects of it's character as how much pressure it can take once it's on the bite.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

It may be possible to address everyone's concerns about safety by just tweaking the scenarios, and equipment a bit.

Make the bite scenarios low impact...(no long run offs.).. That way, no matter what the dog targets there is a smaller chance of injury to dog or decoy. Of course, full suit will have to be used which will upset sleeve folks.

Jeff's idea of utilizing the decoy movement and obstacles to slow the dogs down is a good one. After all...this isn't a hard hitting contest, the committed bite and work getting there is.

Also...each scenario can have a minor variation to accomodate those dogs that come in weird or hard to slow them down and make sure they target. A pre competition meeting with the handlers can be used to gain insight in how to adjust the scenario for maximum safety (without giving up the scenario) so that it is nearly identical, but safe, for everyone.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> I have no dog in this fight so to speak but it seems to me that the esquive issue is one of training and agility.
> 
> If you guys are testing a dog on it's heart and courage then why would this be in issue? The decoy should be trying to run the dog off the field with pressure, not dodge his attempts at a bite.


exactly


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Ok , we're getting some things ironed out but some issues will never be agreed on.

I will conceed that all bites will be on a suited decoy. No sleeves will be allowed so the schutzhund folks that want to do this, come on and give it a try. Safety first.

No making the dog miss. The docoys we will use are very good at what they do so they can take the hit. Safety first.

I will, if all agree, come up with 5 scenarios. Each dog team will draw 3 numbers which will represent scenarios. I will pick 5 judges, they will come from different venues if possible to evaluate each team. Ecah scenario will be rated 1-5 ( 1= poor, 5 The best )

Me doing this will put me out of the running for the money BUT I still want my dog to compete for the fun of it and we shall be on the same point system. I would win anyway.

What say You? Do you agree to this?


----------



## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Sounds good to me, I like the idea of not knowing the scenerios I just wanted to make sure it was safe for the dog and decoy is all. 

I will see you next weekend... oh and I think you should still enter that GSD of yours, even if your not in the money at least you might be able to say ya would have been.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Ok , we're getting some things ironed out but some issues will never be agreed on.
> 
> I will conceed that all bites will be on a suited decoy. No sleeves will be allowed so the schutzhund folks that want to do this, come on and give it a try. Safety first.
> 
> ...


Such a diplomat! I like it! Good work!


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Hell, I'd like to let Ichilles run through it, I know that he'd get a kick out of it. This will be fun to decoy too.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ever heard of drive carrying the dog to the bite ?? That is one point of an esquive. By taking the esquive out for dogs that haven't seen it, you are not testing what the dog is. My dog has been esquived and went flying by, and I don't remember corn fields or broken legs. 

However, I have seen dogs melt outright when the game changes. Either you have faith in the dog, or your to pussy to see what your dog is. For a dog that has never seen that, the decoy moving side to side should slow them down, and if they are not going to slow down, then **** em, let em fly by and see if they have a motor after that.

Seems like some of you are slack jawed ******* when it comes to precious flying by and looking like an idiot...........for about 4 seconds. Have some faith for ****s sake.

By the way, Buko gets pissed when you esquive him.


----------



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

What's with the hate words? Can't we get a thought out with out using expletives?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> What's with the hate words? Can't we get a thought out with out using expletives?


You can get lots of thoughts out using expletives Ben.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Nrp7cj_tM


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

After talking to some people this has been decided. Anyone can enter their dog but in order to be in the running for the money of course you will have to put money up. If you don't then you can run your dog through but only for bragging rights.

The decoys will not know what the scenarios are untill the event, therefore they too can go for the money or bragging rights whichever they want.

Also there will be one scenario that everyone will have to do. The other two will be drawn. This one scenario is and will be VERY hard to pass that's why everyone should have to do it.

Don't expect to breeze through, it AIN'T happening.

Make sure there are plenty of video equipment. History may be made.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
What's with the hate words? Can't we get a thought out with out using expletives?

You sound like _--mod edit -- _The speech police need not apply, go control something else freak.


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

...in this test, besides bite work,has it been decided ....... are the dogs being evaluated on their OUTs and what type of equipment if any is going to be allowed to be used on the dog during the test?


----------



## morris lindesey (May 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ever heard of drive carrying the dog to the bite ?? That is one point of an esquive. By taking the esquive out for dogs that haven't seen it, you are not testing what the dog is. My dog has been esquived and went flying by, and I don't remember corn fields or broken legs.
> 
> However, I have seen dogs melt outright when the game changes. Either you have faith in the dog, or your to pussy to see what your dog is. For a dog that has never seen that, the decoy moving side to side should slow them down, and if they are not going to slow down, then **** em, let em fly by and see if they have a motor after that.
> 
> ...



Jeff has a point...despite his language!


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Lets be real for a minute, any dog worth his grub will deal with an esquive as naturally as he lifts his leg to piss, even if he eats it on the first miss he better be coming back harder and madder on the second one or he's not a dog for me.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't want to comment about any of the things for the Korung. Just come ready to have a grand time.


----------



## morris lindesey (May 2, 2009)

Someone, please be sure to take video footage of this event and post it for those who couldn't make it, we would greatly appreciate that! Thanks in advanced!


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

It's getting down to the wire now.Today we will be putting the finishing touches on. Cutting the grass , having props for the scenairos ready to put up ( ya'll will love these, some crazy stuff ). making sure Saturday's food will be taken care of. All these small things that don't need to be overlooked. This is a lot of work but well worth it. There's no such thing as too much fun with our friends. Evaluators have been selected. There will be 4 plus the decoy will give points. That's 5 people and the scores will be averaged. I'm excited and ready to get'er done.


----------

