# Should the average dog owner have a GSD?



## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Yes, I have another oh-so-philosophical question.

This one came about after spending 2 hours on IM this morning helping a friend in Germany who has just acquired a GSD. "Thor" is about 14 months old, red sable, and comes from Poland! She emailed me and sent me a picture of him asking for help b/c he's "always getting in trouble."

Her description of this boy: goes after everything that moves, loves to play on playground equipment (ladders, slides, even swings), always has a ball in his mouth. Apparently he was purchased, IN POLAND, by a couple who are both in the military. They kept him crated 10+ hours a day adn said he was a menace (and were witnessed hitting and screaming at the dog). The first offered to sell him to the lady who now has him but she said no...then 2 months later they showed up at her door and begged her to take him. They can't find most of his papers, so I have no clue on his lines other than the breeder told them he's "police lines." He has had no OB, is obviously crate trained, and works well with her kids.

So I gave her tons of links to help her get this boy under control, suggested ob training and either SchH or agility, and that she switch his food (poor thing's on Purina One YUCK). And I told her that if she ever decides she doesn't want him, SEND HIM MY WAY lolol!

Now that I've written a book: just made me wonder if the "average" pet owner ought to have a shepherd (and I don't mean just a pet home, I mean the average Purina-feeding-no-obedience-training-want-a-pooch-who-will-sleep-all-day owners). It just seems to me that 80% of people are clueless when it comes to raising a GSD...and it's the dogs who are paying for that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Yes, I have another oh-so-philosophical question.
> 
> This one came about after spending 2 hours on IM this morning helping a friend in Germany who has just acquired a GSD. "Thor" is about 14 months old, red sable, and comes from Poland! She emailed me and sent me a picture of him asking for help b/c he's "always getting in trouble."
> 
> ...


By your definition of "average", these people should get a gold fish.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

The average pet owner shouldn't own a pet, IMHO lol, let alone any dog with drive. Theres nice american line pets out there who are good at laying on the couch, those are the GSD's people want when they think of GSD.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> The average pet owner shouldn't own a pet, IMHO lol, let alone any dog with drive. Theres nice american line pets out there who are good at laying on the couch, those are the GSD's people want when they think of GSD.


Even the bat-eared, obviously AmBred lady I have in teh house goes after anything that moves and has tons of energy. Her favorite past-time is chewing on my hands and kicking Achilles's butt. She's nowhere near my German boy -- don't get me wrong -- but I just keep thinking about all of these "menace" sheps changing hands every day (even the AmBred ones) and it makes me sick. And this is not the first person with a REALLY nice dog who has contacted me for "help" with all of its problems...

Bob -- you're right, but not even goldfish should have to suffer the lives most "pet owners" resign them to


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

I don't believe the average person can honestly handle an intelligent dog, let alone a drivey dog. For the dogs on the upper part of the intelligence rating, a simple walk a day isn't going to do much good. They need BOTH physical AND mental stimulation to be happy. Hence why any of my dogs (I've only owned a Border Collie, a few GSDs, and a Border Collie/GSD cross -fostered a pitbull for a few weeks-) have stupid (in some people's eyes) little chores that they do to keep their mind busy. I've seen what can happen when a dog gets bored (hence why I have a new couch). :roll: 
This is why Labs are so popular. The average pet lab (not from hunting/retrieving lines) needs far less mental stimulation than your average GSD. Sad, but true, this sometimes translates into lack of owner responsibility for exercising the dog, hence why 90% of pet labs are obese.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey, I'm one of these idiots! :lol: Finally, a topic I'm an expert on...sorry in advance for the wordiness

I guess this would be my advice to someone dumb and new like me...

.5. Telling an idiot they can't deal with it is fraught with consequences, so tread carefully, even though I totally agree with you.

1. if they are going to get a GSD, do a ton of research, and while what I'm about to say will probably cause some of you some grief...buy from established lines bred for size/temperment/health predictability (while realizing there's a lot of variation and this could mean jack). That's why I went with a very German line with a pedigree I could trace back because I needed that predictability. I would not buy an American line GSD, that's not a knock, I just think there is less risk there for a n00b like me. Having Troll and Fero lines is cool (to about five people in the US) but mostly I just like knowing the histories. Gives me more appreciation for the dog's capabilities and my responsibilities even though I know that may sound weird.

1.5 Let experienced dog people suggest a breeder for you that seems to mesh with your own research. Only buy from a breeder that must qualify you as an owner before you can buy their dog Only buy from a breeder who understands the differences between working dogs and family dogs. 

2. Let the breeder pick the dog for you based on an objective understanding of your home environment and your ability to invest time and energy in the dog. Make them intrepret their selection according to Volhard selection criteria if they don't do the specific test. Don't get a "1" dog although my dog leans towards that. Buy from a breeder who will refuse to tell you particular pups from the litter because of their screened dispositions.

3. Talk with reasonable owners of like animals and ask them their opinion as to whether you can handle it. 

4. Don't buy one if you don't want the house dirtier, your clothes messier, and every other neighbor really irritated that you now have a "mean dog" on their block. Plan on spending 5x more than what anyone tells you you'll spend on a dog.

5. Don't buy one if you think they (i.e., dogs from working lines) can train like dolphins with halters on. 

6. Go to leerburg and other sites and read the horror stories about idiots like me who buy them and then tie them out the backyard for a few years. Read as much as you can about the training philosophies on that site and others, even if you are like me and don't agree with some of them. Cesar Milan is great but he does not teach people how to properly handle working dogs. There's some middle ground in between the two.

7. Ask yourself where you will get the 2-3 hours of "high quality and stimulating" interaction time a day to spend with the dog. For the next 15 years. Try to live that schedule for a few weeks (e.g., go for long walks, etc. but take that time AWAY from your current life).

7.5 Don't kid yourself about personal protection training if you are a n00b and you do not have a house where you could not keep a loaded gun on the kitchen floor. Read carefully all the comments from LEOs and MWD handlers about how few dogs can actually do this. Like, twice.

8. If you don't like asking for directions because of pride, don't get a working dog.

*9. Be honest with your wife about shedding, it will save you trouble later. *:lol:

And tell them their lives will change just as much as they did when they had a baby! Except dogs housebreak quicker.

Now for the more controversial stuff, I guess: first-time dog owners should not own GSDs. Beyond GSDs, I would not recommend a working Mal or Dutch or molosser/pit breed to anyone who did not spend >50% of their work and play lives in dog-related activities (kennel ownership, training, etc.) and had previously owned dominant dogs (successfully). I think there should be a breeder code of ethics keyed to these types of things that would restrict to whom breeders could sell animals. I think serious breeders should be given preferential tax incentives to pre-qualify potential dog owners. (I am not talking about BSL, I'm talking about incentizing, because good sales mean less harm to society down the road in many ways). I think there should be tax incentives for spaying/neutering. 

Sorry for the length, this question causes me to think a lot. Some days more than others!!!


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Woody, you are NOT an idiot! And I consider you far above the "average" dog owner simply b/c you are here on this board asking questions. The average pet owner doesn't care. Discussions about obedience, all natural dog food, being the pack leader, etc., fall on deaf ears...

Most good breeders are pretty discriminate about who owns their dogs but dude in POland (in this case) apparently was not (and again, I do not know the exact history of this pup, I can only surmise from the discussion that we're talking about a nice Polish DDR/Czech dog, especially based on his look, size, and color).

ETA: I totally agree about buying a dog from well established lines/good breeding. I bought a German show boy who can be traced back to Horand. I just RESCUE the AmBred babies :wink:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Discussions about obedience, all natural dog food, being the pack leader, etc., fall on deaf ears...


In a way that was one nice thing about having a 2.5 year old and a 1 year old in the house. Assuming you are an invested parent, the dog has to learn "my way or the highway" pretty darn quick and is limited in goo-goo time it gets from you. The alternative is something you may regret for the rest of your life. And little stuff like making my dog watch us interact with each other (from its crate), I think, did wonders for establishing hierarchy.

Again, this assumes you are not an idiot parent. I'm against BSL for the most part but I'm pretty much all for licensed parenting.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Again, this assumes you are not an idiot parent. I'm against BSL for the most part but I'm pretty much all for licensed parenting.


AMEN to that!!!!

Here's the dog in question:










Pupper is 28.5 inches at the withers and 80 lbs (born 25 Feb 2005). BIG BOY. Too bad about his ear...I would call that neglect and possibly poor nutrition? I just love his color...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Woody Taylor said:
> 
> 
> > Pupper is 28.5 inches at the withers and 80 lbs (born 25 Feb 2005). BIG BOY. Too bad about his ear...I would call that neglect and possibly poor nutrition? I just love his color...
> ...


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Cute dog! Sheesh I have been in these forums too long (all of five months) when I see that pic and that story and go..."maybe I should talk to the wife about picking up another one???" :roll: This would be reason #257 for the divorce papers to get drawn up, right after switching to raw. :wink:


I'll help!!!!!!!! Nothing better than finding a displaced GSD a home!

However the rescue would be worried considering your marital upheaval afterwards :!: 

2 sheps are better than 1.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> 2 sheps are better than 1.


But three sheps would make good rain cover for me out on the curb. Send the big ones.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Stacia Porter said:
> 
> 
> > 2 sheps are better than 1.
> ...


Think video of my two tearing up the house will convince her? The war sounds are enough to make anyone happy :lol: . Who can't feel at peace with life while watching shepherds chase, wrestle, bark, and bite on each other all day long???????? I mean, honestly!

There are "big" GSD's in rescue. Won't be nice German lines, but you won't care as long as you have a fur coat to protect from the elements on there on your curb...


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Too bad about his ear...I would call that neglect and possibly poor nutrition?


It's probably poor nutrition (purina one isn't famous for it's calcium levels), also could be from getting smacked in the head and having the ear cartilage broken.
He is beautiful.. 
thinking to self---no more dogs no more dogs-
(yes I know, I've only got one, but I've got him and a 9 month old baby to chase after!!)


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> It's probably poor nutrition (purina one isn't famous for it's calcium levels), also could be from getting smacked in the head and having the ear cartilage broken.
> He is beautiful..
> thinking to self---no more dogs no more dogs-
> (yes I know, I've only got one, but I've got him and a 9 month old baby to chase after!!)


I didn't think about him being smacked in teh head  . Poor baby. His owner says he isn't for sale: and she sounds like she wants to be serious about getting him under control. Her hubby already enrolled him in training with a German SV trainer and they start next week  . That made me very, very, very happy. She takes him on walks all of the time, lets him play on the plaground equipment, and she has 7 kids who play with him all of the time. He also has a chow brother! She's owned rotts in the past -- it's just that GSD's are a whole diff ball game and her hubby took the dog w/o talking to her. It's just that things she considered "problems" with him sure the heck aren't, and the things she doesnt' consider issues (showing signs of dog aggression) really are!

Just got me thinking about the average pet owner and how that equals a lot of dogs in shelters (and not just gsd's: many large breed, high drive, energetic dogs get dumped).

A 9 mth old baby is enough work not to need another dog :wink: . BTW when do we get to see more pictures of Shane? His smile is just too adorable!!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I want to know how her husband made out after taking the dog without talking to her. If that's the way for me to get another dog then I hope that curb is large. Maybe even a bench close by, concrete gets hard.
I bought her a mood ring so that I could keep up with her moods. It turns green when she's in a good mood and it turns my forehead red when she's in a bad mood. Go figure. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I want to know how her husband made out after taking the dog without talking to her. If that's the way for me to get another dog then I hope that curb is large. Maybe even a bench close by, concrete gets hard.
> I bought her a mood ring so that I could keep up with her moods. It turns green when she's in a good mood and it turns my forehead red when she's in a bad mood. Go figure. :wink:


Oh, DUH on me!   I didn't get Woody's post about the shelter at the curb until I read this reply! LOL!!


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I want to know how her husband made out after taking the dog without talking to her. If that's the way for me to get another dog then I hope that curb is large. Maybe even a bench close by, concrete gets hard.
> I bought her a mood ring so that I could keep up with her moods. It turns green when she's in a good mood and it turns my forehead red when she's in a bad mood. Go figure. :wink:


Well he's alive and taking teh dog to training???

I'm still alive after driving 2 1/2 hours to get a dog w/o asking hubby first LOLOL. He did narrow his eyes at her and ask WTH she was...but then I caught him snuggling wiht her 30 min later.

Maybe I should convince hubby to get ME a mood ring. My cast iron skillets need oiling...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jerry Lyda said:
> 
> 
> > I want to know how her husband made out after taking the dog without talking to her. If that's the way for me to get another dog then I hope that curb is large. Maybe even a bench close by, concrete gets hard.
> ...


You all keep the lactation/LLL thread and we'll keep the obscure references to getting kicked around by our spouses for our stupidity. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> .....Oh, DUH on me!   I didn't get Woody's post about the shelter at the curb until I read this reply! LOL!!


You all keep the lactation/LLL thread and we'll keep the obscure references to getting kicked around by our spouses for our stupidity. :wink:[/quote]

That seems fair. :lol:


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## Joe Jones (May 1, 2006)

Well, to answer the original question. Sure, why not, an average breed for an average person seems to fit just fine.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> Well, to answer the original question. Sure, why not, an average breed for an average person seems to fit just fine.


I missed the breed $hittalking, I really did. :roll:


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> Well, to answer the original question. Sure, why not, an average breed for an average person seems to fit just fine.


You know, Joe, you seem to have an awful lot of animosity. It's not exactly productive to discussion...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> It's not exactly productive to discussion...


...which I admit I hijacked, anyways. Sorry for my rambling. I guess in short that there's a pretty steep learning curve for working breeds that would make them bad for the average owner.

But, just for the sake of argument, I would say the same thing about a Border Collie, Lab, many hunting breeds (which yap up a storm in my neighborhood because they only go out of their kennels three times a year), etc...I guess a working breed can go wrong in a bigger way than some of those breeds, but a nutty Border Collie can be pretty tough on its entire environment.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

edited


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## Joe Jones (May 1, 2006)

No animosity here at all. I jsut happen to think that the GSD is an average breed all around. Not particularly hard to handle, usually intelligent, but not overly so. Not particularly dominant, about average there. Even if drivey, can calm in the house to an average level. Loyal, but not particularly pack possessive. So, if an average Joe is looking for an average dog, a GSD is a good choice. An average Joe should not get a malinois, a Jack Russell, a lab, or anything above or below average in any important category. A good GSD is good average dog for an average person. What in there contains animous?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> No animosity here at all. I jsut happen to think that the GSD is an average breed all around. Not particularly hard to handle, usually intelligent, but not overly so. Not particularly dominant, about average there. Even if drivey, can calm in the house to an average level. Loyal, but not particularly pack possessive. So, if an average Joe is looking for an average dog, a GSD is a good choice. An average Joe should not get a malinois, a Jack Russell, a lab, or anything above or below average in any important category. A good GSD is good average dog for an average person. What in there contains animous?


What you just posted is probably what you may have tried posting in the first place. Just a thought.

Edited to say...keep in mind some GSDs have fight drive. Mals and Dutchies do not.


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## Joe Jones (May 1, 2006)

Didn't know that people would be so defensive.

If you believe fight drive exists, then you are probably right.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> Didn't know that people would be so defensive.
> 
> If you believe fight drive exists, then you are probably right.


We're weak-kneed and nervy, that's why we gravitate towards GSDs. The fight drive comment was a joke, completely.


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## Joe Jones (May 1, 2006)

You never know, some folks have staked their entire breeding program on producing dogs with "fight drive". Poor suckers.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> the GSD is an average breed all around. Not particularly hard to handle, usually intelligent, but not overly so. Not particularly dominant, about average there. Even if drivey, can calm in the house to an average level. Loyal, but not particularly pack possessive. So, if an average Joe is looking for an average dog, a GSD is a good choice.


I would like people to explore this sentiment--I can honestly say I have never heard anyone say these things about sound German Shepherds. Maybe in relation to Mals in PSD/sporting environments relative to their drives and aggression, but nope, never heard anyone question the GSD's intelligence. Best analogy I have heard is that a GSD is second-best at everything which is still a few notches above what your average owner can handle.

Edited to say I will be very, very disappointed if Lou, Jerry, Bob and company leave this hanging! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Joe Jones (May 1, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Joe Jones said:
> 
> 
> > the GSD is an average breed all around. Not particularly hard to handle, usually intelligent, but not overly so. Not particularly dominant, about average there. Even if drivey, can calm in the house to an average level. Loyal, but not particularly pack possessive. So, if an average Joe is looking for an average dog, a GSD is a good choice.
> ...


Do you think that GSD's, overall are hard to handle? I happen to think that they are not. In fact, they seem to me very tractable. 

I happen to think they are intelligent, but no so much so that it gets in the way of being trained. They are not overanalyzers, nor are they big cost/benefit animals. 

I don't happen to think that they are very dominant as an overall breed. Try living with a working, unneutered male rottweiler if you want to see what dominance is all about. I don't get that from the GSD breed. Of course, people will always say this about this dog, and that about that dog, but overall, I don't see the GSD as a dominant breed. 

And, if drivey, do you think that they can't calm in the house? Try living with a wired malinois for a week to redfine drivey and wired. No, I think tha tthe GSD, largely like the Rott can possess good drive, yet be a good housedog. 

Relax Woody, I'm not slamming your breed. Read what I am saying.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> Woody Taylor said:
> 
> 
> > Joe Jones said:
> ...


My guess is that experienced dog handlers find them both tractable and without animous, generally speaking. That's not what the thread is focused on. The thread is focused on average joe owner, whose knowledge of dogs might extend to the person at Petsmart telling them to try out a Gentle Leader for their leash-pulling problems.

I already talked about higher-edge dogs upthread...Mals, Dutchies, your Rott, I will readily admit are even worse for this environment.

You need to reread your statements. You didn't talk explicitly about dominance and rank drive, etc. You talked about basic intelligence and drives. Big difference. That's why I responded to your post as I did.


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## Joe Jones (May 1, 2006)

I still am saying though, because the GSD is not to the extreme in any particular category that would really effect an average owner, like rank, drive, and all that we have just talked about, the GSD would make a good fit for an average owner. I certainly don't thik it would be a disaster waiting to happen like giving a no prior experience family a mal or rottweiler puppy for christmas. The GSd is an excellent generalist, that is why is has been the overwhelming choice for PD's.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> I still am saying though, because the GSD is not to the extreme in any particular category that would really effect an average owner, like rank, drive, and all that we have just talked about, the GSD would make a good fit for an average owner. I certainly don't thik it would be a disaster waiting to happen like giving a no prior experience family a mal or rottweiler puppy for christmas. The GSd is an excellent generalist, that is why is has been the overwhelming choice for PD's.


And I'm not smart enough to say one way or the other, but again, I'll point out that you are about five planets away from how you initiated yourself into this thread ("why not, an average breed for an average person seems to fit just fine"). I am cool with any claims about other breeds being worse. A fila or Tosa or a serious LGD or a rank drive APBT would be worse than a Mal or a Rott. IMHO.


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## Joe Jones (May 1, 2006)

Probably, but I don't have any experience with those breeds to say so. I do with GSD's, Mals and Rotts. I've also got a nasty little super dominant pit/mal bitch that is a special case in and of herself. But as to the other breeds, can't contribute there.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

High drive dogs should be owned by, in my humble, amateur opinion, by those that understand and expect this in the dog and who are experienced or at least devoted to seeing that the dog is properly trained and exercised. An average "pet" dog owner are sometimes in over their heads with a lazy basset hound and are leagues under the sea when it comes to a JRT or a Mal. 

However, I will tell you that my working GSD, who does have a ton of drive, is much easier to handle than my "pet" American line female GSD. And this sort of touches on another thread I started about dogs being a reflection of their owners. In my case which is true, the working line GSD that I just titled in ASR or the nervy, somewhat disobedient American GSD? 

I will tell you for a fact that my GSD with a ton of drive is far, far easier for even myself to handle than my American GSD. The answer to this is, I think two-fold. One, the working line dog is made to please. The other dog is of pet quality only and, with her poor nerves, is more difficult to control. And with all of the crap dogs out there, and there are countless, I am of the opinion that a working dog is much easier to handle than the average dingbat dog.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> I will tell you for a fact that my GSD with a ton of drive is far, far easier for even myself to handle than my American GSD. The answer to this is, I think two-fold. One, the working line dog is made to please. The other dog is of pet quality only and, with her poor nerves, is more difficult to control. And with all of the crap dogs out there, and there are countless, I am of the opinion that a working dog is much easier to handle than the average dingbat dog.


This makes sense to me, along with the fourth or fifth revision of Joe's comments...with the caveat that the "average owner" engage and exercise the dog (the way an intelligent dog like a GSD should be). Then I'm totally onboard with the notion that a well-bred GSD would make a great pet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Joe Jones said:
> 
> 
> > the GSD is an average breed all around. Not particularly hard to handle, usually intelligent, but not overly so. Not particularly dominant, about average there. Even if drivey, can calm in the house to an average level. Loyal, but not particularly pack possessive. So, if an average Joe is looking for an average dog, a GSD is a good choice.
> ...


This was how it sounded to me too. I'm not breed-obsessed, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that a sound GSD was "an average dog for the average owner........" in this context. I dunno -- did I totally misread (along with Stacia and Woody)? 

Original post quote: "I don't mean just a pet home, I mean the average Purina-feeding-no-obedience-training-want-a-pooch-who-will-sleep-all-day owners." 

This was the post Joe stated he was answering, with "Well, to answer the original question. Sure, why not, an average breed for an average person seems to fit just fine."


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So, yeah, I'll bite. The GSD is fine with the average owner. After Owning and breeding Rotts for ten years, GSD's are cupcakes.

PLUS, as an added bonus, you are not taking into account the fact that very very few GSD's are working dogs, or should I say even qualified to be working dogs. Most just want to hang out with you.

I really do not find the average GSD to be brilliant by any means, I have trained an awful lot of dumbazz ones for sure. Nice enough if you like that sort of thing, but honestly, CULLS. 

I think the actual numbers for dogs that can title are probably less than 15%, but show people screw that number up with their non-stop breeding and 50,000$$$$$ dogs. Be kinda interesting to know.

To reiterate, Joe owns Rotts, which are NOT NOT NOT for the average dog owner, PITA that they can be. GSD's are perfectly OK for an average owner.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh, and most Labs are fat because their owners do not find anything for them to do, or are show people.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> No animosity here at all. I jsut happen to think that the GSD is an average breed all around. Not particularly hard to handle, usually intelligent, but not overly so. Not particularly dominant, about average there. Even if drivey, can calm in the house to an average level. Loyal, but not particularly pack possessive. So, if an average Joe is looking for an average dog, a GSD is a good choice. An average Joe should not get a malinois, a Jack Russell, a lab, or anything above or below average in any important category. A good GSD is good average dog for an average person. What in there contains animous?


A lab is average to me. My gsd's are way higher in energy than any lab I've ever met. A JRT *is* high energy, and so is a mal. However, there are some of us who prefer a dog who shuts off every once in a while.

My beagle is too high speed for many dog owners and she spends about 80% of her time burrowed in my son's comforter :roll: . We see her during meal times, potty breaks, and occasionally she'll come find me for 10 whole minutes of playtime. SHe hates walks, doesn't like chew toys, and prefers to live her life away from the rest of us. And that's still more than post pet owners can handle.

Patrick, that is an interesting point about nerves. It *is* easier to handle a sound dog than one who has weak nervces. I don't worry about Achilles during thunder storms or when a car drives by the way I do about Andi (who, BTW, is very confident now and unbothered by loud noises or cars yaaaay). Achilles is also more trainable than Andi, and therefore more predictable.

After owning Rotts, GSD's would be tame. But the average pet owner can't handle a rott, either! My upstairs neighbor tried to raise 2, male/female, from the SAME litter and wouldn't listen to any advice from anyone. They were alone 10+ hours a day while she was at work, the males nerves were so horrible heh would vomit uncontrollably if in his crate so he was left out to destroy what he pleased from 4 months old on. She never did obedience but started them on prong collars at only 4 months on the advice of a neighborhood dumba$$ who'd done the same with his rott (who, BTW, took a chunk outta his owners backside after a while). She was correcting the crap out of these dogs for things she'd never taught them in the first place. Sooooo long story short: they became aggressive and started attacking one another. She shipped them here to the States and that's the last I heard of them, but I'd bet at least one is dead by now.[/code]


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Patrick's american line GSD would be perfect for the average household from what I've seen. She's more difficult to train because she doesn't respond well to compulsion being such a soft dog, n her temprement makes her think "OK I'm gonna run off n do what I want", but if you trained Jake the way the average person trains a dog (i.e. almost not at all), Jake would be a monster. He's easy to control because he's very handler sensitive... what if the average owner ended up getting a hard working line dog? Ha. Disaster!

It's easy to consider the GSD average, but there's dogs who hit all extremes in the GSD breed, just depends how lucky or unlucky you get. What if the average person ended up with a fear aggressive dog who wanted to kill everyone and everything. Disaster!

The average person can handle a lazy GSD... but when I think average, I think of people like my neighbor who has a white frou frou dog that he can't control and has no training who goes nuts barking n pulling on the line at my GSD everytime she goes outside. Or my other neighbor who has a black lab who is dog aggressive who just wanders the street n almost gets hit by cars, n was barking on the front lawn at me and Cujo.. I was trying to shield my boy from this dog who wanted to bite him, but was scared of ME... if I started walking the dog would advance to come around the back to get my dog, the idiot owner came to the door n for literally a minute stood there calling her dog who was ignoring her, instead of taking initiative n walking 20ft into the front yard, grabbing the dog by the collar n taking him inside. After a minute she said "hold on I'll go get his leash"... I waited about 30 seconds n gave up waiting n carefully walked away from the dog keeping my own dog protected n using body language to make the dog back off everytime he advanced. I got to my house 5 doors down n this time heard the ladies idiot husband standing in the doorway calling the dog.... what is wrong with going outside and GRABBING the damn dog???

OK so that's just 2 people... how about the guy in the next street with the 75lb doberman... his dog looks VICIOUS if you walk by his house, n his 12 year old son leaning backwards trying to restrain the dog... OK the dog's not always vicious though, I've pet the dog before, but I saw the guy with his dog one day on a walk, I circle the block n I see the same guy walking without his dog, I ask him where his dog went n he says "I was letting him run around the community tennis courts n now he won't come back so I'm going home to get some treats".... what the hell!

Seriously, when someone says average, these are the morons I think of... could you imagine the damage the "wrong" GSD could do in these hands? What if the dog has good nerves and good drive with no outlet or training? Kid rides along on a bike n the dog goes after his ankles because the idiot owners are inside the house with the dog on the lawn unleashed. Kid walks into the tennis courts not seeing the dobie sitting in the opposite corner who then runs full speed at the kid knocking him over or worse.

Like I said... the average pet owner shouldn't own a pet! Let alone any large breed or any breed with energy. They should get a dog with the level of energy required to be a lawn ornament and the size to be kicked 20ft if the dog does develop aggression and advances on people. I almost ran over my neighbors white frou frou dog once, Cujo saved the lil shits life... he started barking like nuts, I looked out the truck window about to back up when I saw the lil white fluffball that Cujo was barking at right behind the back tire of the truck. I put the truck back in park, picked up the dog n walked back to the guy who owns him... he claims his dog ran out the garage because someone left the door open.


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## Joe Jones (May 1, 2006)

When I made my first post, I was not speaking of the extremes in either dogs or in people. I was not talking about super drivey or nervey dogs, nor was I talking about folks with IQ's below 50, or Mensa members, I am talking about your average American Joe and his family. Folks who know where the vet is, folks who talke dogs for walks in the evening, folks who feed and groom regularly. For these people, your average, middle of the road GSD is a perfect dog. In fact, I am lookng one for my mom-in-law. She is your average widow, looking for a dog that will bark, maybe a little more. A dog that will lay there when she wants to chill out, or walk when she wants to get a little exercise. Nor more perfect dog to me than an average GSD. 

Now, maybe my term average GSD has been skewed by the discussion that about only 15% of the GSD are worth a crap. I don't know. I was speaking more in terms of the broad spectrum between the biggest piece of crap (include all the modifiers you want, nerve, drives, character, courage, health, whatever) all the way to the best GSD out there, if that dog could be quantified. I absouletly do not think the same can be said about the average Rottweiler, or the average mal, because the average one of those would still not be compatible with the average family.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> When I made my first post, I was not speaking of the extremes in either dogs or in people. I was not talking about super drivey or nervey dogs, nor was I talking about folks with IQ's below 50, or Mensa members, I am talking about your average American Joe and his family. Folks who know where the vet is, folks who talke dogs for walks in the evening, folks who feed and groom regularly. For these people, your average, middle of the road GSD is a perfect dog. In fact, I am lookng one for my mom-in-law. She is your average widow, looking for a dog that will bark, maybe a little more. A dog that will lay there when she wants to chill out, or walk when she wants to get a little exercise. Nor more perfect dog to me than an average GSD.


My average GSD would get pretty Mal-icious in that kind of environment very quickly. A walk around the block and crashing on the couch is not in her vocabulary, she's a pressure cooker and she needs engagement beyond the environment you describe there.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> When I made my first post, I was not speaking of the extremes in either dogs or in people. I was not talking about super drivey or nervey dogs, nor was I talking about folks with IQ's below 50, or Mensa members, I am talking about your average American Joe and his family. Folks who know where the vet is, folks who talke dogs for walks in the evening, folks who feed and groom regularly. For these people, your average, middle of the road GSD is a perfect dog. In fact, I am lookng one for my mom-in-law. She is your average widow, looking for a dog that will bark, maybe a little more. A dog that will lay there when she wants to chill out, or walk when she wants to get a little exercise. Nor more perfect dog to me than an average GSD.
> 
> Now, maybe my term average GSD has been skewed by the discussion that about only 15% of the GSD are worth a crap. I don't know. I was speaking more in terms of the broad spectrum between the biggest piece of crap (include all the modifiers you want, nerve, drives, character, courage, health, whatever) all the way to the best GSD out there, if that dog could be quantified. I absouletly do not think the same can be said about the average Rottweiler, or the average mal, because the average one of those would still not be compatible with the average family.


Joe, the average dog owner, IME, doesn't do the things you've got listed (walks, grooming, exercise). The average person I've run across has no patience for puppy mouthing, prey drive of any kind, pulling on a leash, barking. Most of them want some little dog who'll ride around in a purse/stroller and lay around teh house, adn who doesn't need obedience or walks. Perhaps it's b/c I've never been around the AmBred shep, but this is not my experience with GSD's. They mouth items, chew some up, bark, pull on leash unless taught not to, need daily exercise, require lots of grooming b/c of shedding, and most need a firm handler/pack leader. Many of my new neighbors have stopped by my yard to witness play sessions with my 13 mth old boy and asked me what on earth I'm doing (and this is just retrieval send outs and targeting with a jute from a distance). They don't do more than take their dogs for a walk every once in a while.

Since getting Achilles I've had more than one person ask my advice about "fixing" issues their GSD has, and they're always things like, "He chew on things," "He jumps around too much," "He never seems to calm down." I always just laugh and say, "Congrats. You've got yourself a shepherd!"


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Many of my new neighbors have stopped by my yard to witness play sessions with my 13 mth old boy and asked me what on earth I'm doing (and this is just retrieval send outs and targeting with a jute from a distance)


You ain't kidding. We practice in a park on a long line, just simple retrieve and tug work (now pillow work), people think I'm training for a deployment in a war zone.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> You ain't kidding. We practice in a park on a long line, just simple retrieve and tug work (now pillow work), people think I'm training for a deployment in a war zone.


ROFL! I hadn't thought of it that way. Since we're military and the whloe neighborhood knows it they probably think we're training the dog for some sort of special operations overseas. And bringing in GSD #2 probably hasn't helped that image. I always think to myself, "Now what would you say if you saw him doing REAL bitework?"

Admittedly watching a huge dog (and mine is on the larger side at 65 cm at the withers and about 67 lbs these days) barrel across an entire yard to grab a jute is probably daunting to your average on-looker. Butthead knocked me clearn on my arse last night (and then wouldn't hit hard after that so we ended the session).

If I could only hear the whispers of the people walking by my yard...aye me. :?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Woody Taylor said:
> 
> 
> > You ain't kidding. We practice in a park on a long line, just simple retrieve and tug work (now pillow work), people think I'm training for a deployment in a war zone.
> ...


Yes, I dialed the tug work back a bit when a lot of people are around. At worst it's a close neighborhood (and really, really, really liberal...Mondale democrats) and I don't want them weirded out about it (keeping in mind most average joe dog owners are told not to engage in tug with animals, even the New Skete Monks advocate this)...at best I feel like I look close to some ******* clown trying to show off. My wife pointed this out one night, sometimes perspective helps  I became every idiot I went to high school with in OK with their APBTs and Rotts. :lol:


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> In fact, I am lookng one for my mom-in-law. She is your average widow, looking for a dog that will bark, maybe a little more. A dog that will lay there when she wants to chill out, or walk when she wants to get a little exercise. Nor more perfect dog to me than an average GSD.


Joe, you might consider contacting some German Shepherd rescue organizations. If the above-mentioned type of dog exists at one of the rescue shelters, they'll let you know. Of course, they're also going to want to know that the dog is going to receive proper care, etc. and rightly so. 

An average owner neglects the dogs emotional and physical needs and thinks of the dog as a trinket that can be occasionally enjoyed and then put on the proverbial shelf (ignored). THAT is your average dog owner. Some are worse. 

An above-average owner takes their dogs for walk and instills some level of discipline and control. 

What many typical dog owners cannot understand is that they would save themselves time and hassle if they invested some time and care in the first place to do some very basic training with the dog. Either they're too stupid, lazy, or both to do it.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> Joe, you might consider contacting some German Shepherd rescue organizations. If the above-mentioned type of dog exists at one of the rescue shelters, they'll let you know. Of course, they're also going to want to know that the dog is going to receive proper care, etc. and rightly so.


What an excellent point, Patrick!!!! There are many purebred shepherds sitting in rescue and/or shelters for various reasons. Most make excellent companions! There is a whole rescue forum at germanshepherds.com...both urgent and non-uregent rescue cases are posted there.

Which of course brings us back to the original topic of this thread: the average owner can't handle the GSD, which is why so many are rehomed, dumped at shelters, or put into rescue...


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## Jamie Bodeutsch (Apr 23, 2006)

Not trying to keep an argument going but....



> I am talking about your average American Joe and his family. Folks who know where the vet is, folks who talke dogs for walks in the evening, folks who feed and groom regularly. For these people, your average, middle of the road GSD is a perfect dog.


What you discribe here is definatly NOT your average owner. You are describing an ideal situation to have a regular family pet in. I deal with the true 'average' dog owners every day. Most of them only meet half of what you discribe there. Most pet owners fall well short of this due to ignorance, lack of skill or common sence (or UNcommon sence), too much to do and little time, ect,ect.

~Jamie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I got a GSD for ya Joe. Sounds like Jinxie's perfect life.


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## Joe Jones (May 1, 2006)

Well, any dog I get, whatever it is, has to be able to meet my standards and be able to go through at least ASR entry level. Mom wouldn't require that, but I do. Who knows, maybe rescue is the answer, but I never thought about it.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Joe Jones said:


> Well, any dog I get, whatever it is, has to be able to meet my standards and be able to go through at least ASR entry level. Mom wouldn't require that, but I do. Who knows, maybe rescue is the answer, but I never thought about it.


Joe,

If you go here http://www.windlied.com/adopt.html there is a very nice female (spayed), but she has mild HD in one hip. That probably prevents her from sport, but she was being trained in SchH before her hip xrays showed her to be dysplastic. She would make a very nice home protection dog -- very high drives! Her owner had high hopes for her...

You can go also go to www.germanshepherds.com and peruse the Rescue section. The "non urgent" rescues will have very nice working line dogs from time to time (there was just one listed not too long ago fro Wolfstraum). I've even seen some nice working dogs end up in teh urgents!

Just a thought...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

No, I don't think the average person should get a GSD. Take a look at the shelters & rescues. They are full of GSD's or GSD crosses that couldn't make it in the average pet home. Many of those dogs should get frequent flyer miles for the number of times they have been rehomed then sent back. The average person also won't take the time to find out about HD & other problems in the breed. They will just go buy the cheapest one they can find from one of the many not-so-hot breeders out there, then when they can't afford the medical costs or can't handle the fact that the dog needs more than a dish of kibble in the backyard, they take them to the pound. Of course, these impulse dog buying people are just what the Panda, Blue, Giant, Shepherd Breeders are looking for.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't see why the average person can't own a gsd, they're the best all around dog there is. I'm an average person and i have 3 :lol: , it's definitely harder for the average person to own terriers and dogs like that. One of my nephews got a dachsund (sp?) and he's in waaaay over his head, the dog is nuts (kinda like a weeny malinoid) :lol:, the dog is in constant motion and literally bounces off the walls, i go to his house and get the dog all revved up and then leave :twisted: . He asked me what to do and i told him to get a gsd,
AL


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> I don't see why the average person can't own a gsd, they're the best all around dog there is. I'm an average person and i have 3 :lol:


Funny man! We have seen your ob videos and stuff, you are not an average person. You add great stuff to this forum too, wish you would post more.

It's interesting since we first started this thread, Annie's started to mature really fast. In her first heat, first time we have let her interact with the kids for a good stretch. She's not so antsy, seems much more aware of behavior we accept and behavior we do not. Makes me wonder if average owners can handle a sound, submissive ADULT GSD but not necessarily a puppy.

Assuming they can run the heck out of them, and give them jobs, like I do with mine.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm an average, 60 yr old grandpa and I've got TWO terriers and a high drive GSD. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

How do you exercise Thunder, now that you mention it?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> How do you exercise Thunder, now that you mention it?


My ADHD wont let me slow down. Gonna kill me or keep me in shape. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh right Bob, you are average. We should all be so "average". :lol:


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