# Pups and retrieve drive



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

For those of you that have raised pups and like a strong retreive drive in your working dogs (don't care the venue)...

How do you see retrieving progress in pups. How old are the dogs before they will retreive until your arm falls off. 

Can you spot the non stop retreivers vs the ones that will get bored of it after a while in an 8 week old pup? How about a 12 week old pup and so on?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm not interested in a dog that won't retrieve by the time it is 14 weeks old. This is based on some studies I don't recall at the moment. 

I don't need a strong retrieve at this age for my training venue, but I need to see all the behaviors (target, mouth, pick up, CARRY, drop, return). I don't care if the pup drops it before returning. 

I also need to see the pup carrying a variety of items including netal, objects that make noise, objects that are large (puppy steps on while retrieving), items difficult to pick up/hold.

I don't need persistence in retrieval, I need persistence in targeting which I can develop in training if the rest of the skills are there.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My older GSD and one other in his litter were retrieving to hand at 5-6 wks. Exceptional IMHO!
Don't look to see how long one will "retrieve till your arm falls off" with young pups. Even the best picks are still just puppies and could get bored or burned out if pushed to hard. 
Also in testing pups, don't be trying to toss it any great distance. Only a few feet for a small pup. To far and the pup is outside you area of influence and may just forget about bringing it back to you.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> For those of you that have raised pups and like a strong retreive drive in your working dogs (don't care the venue)...
> 
> How do you see retrieving progress in pups. How old are the dogs before they will retreive until your arm falls off.
> 
> Can you spot the non stop retreivers vs the ones that will get bored of it after a while in an 8 week old pup? How about a 12 week old pup and so on?


Everyone will have a different opinion here, I will simpy tell you what I look for in my bloodlines, other lines show this at different ages.
I begin to make my puppies crazy for all objects very early (about 3 weeks old) I like to see them chasing and picking up things by 5-6 weeks. I dont care if they bring anything back to me (I can train that later if I need to) but when I tease them with something (small ball, rubber hose, metal keys) I want to see them show me a lot of drive to go get it, and a lot of drive to hold onto it.
I only do this a few times a day (maybe 3 or 4 times) and then I put them back up, so I dont burn them out.
If I do my job right I build enough drive that by the time they are adults they will litterally pass out from playing and retrieving, but I always keep the sessions short and leave them wanting more.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have had dogs that did not get that interested in retrieving until they were older. This was a particular line of Rotts, but I have seen it in other dogs occasionally.

Research the pedigree of the litter you are interested in, and then have fun sorting through the differences in terminology. LOL I have had people tell me their dog is a retrieving fool, and the dog is done if it is hot, or more than ten minutes or so.

In MY terminology, a "retrieving fool" will kill itself from exhaustion, or stroke out from the heat before it will stop.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks guys. I was not expecting a 8 week old pup to retrieve non stop!

If I get what you are saying...if the parents were crazy retrievers (pedigree) and you work on it being a fun game...the retrieving will gradually progress. 

My next goal is to figure out why some dogs with CRAZY retrieve drive do NOT make good search dogs. And conversly why I have seen some search dogs with medium retrieve drive that are GREAT search dogs. That said, I am a fan of the big natural retrieve drive:wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For me, the natural retrieve is an indication of the dogs willingness to work with a human but it has nothing to do with hunt drive. That's where many dogs fall short in the SAR selection.
A "GREAT" search dog doesn't have to have a great retrieve. Just two behaviours I personelly like to see. 

You can toss a ball for some dogs that will retrieve all day but if it's tossed in an area that makes it hard to find, that same dog just may say "to hell with it". 
Think about a lot of pets that chase a toy as long as you throw it but when it goes under a couch it's "GAME OVER"! 

As with ANY behaviour the parents can give a good idea of what you may get but it's no guarantee.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Testing that pup...I had a call yesterday to test an 11 week old Rottie for PPD training and use. Sure, look into the eyes of a little kid an see if he/she wil be the next cop, doctor, teacher, business owner, or convict. Look into the eyes of an puppy to see the abilities of at 11 weeks...

Retrieve drives can help, checking for noise issues can help, checking for dominance can, but this is getting too tough. Anyone got a magic globe that I can borrow.? =D>


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

life revolves around the ball for my dog. He was retrieving from the day we brought him home, and was probably about 4 months when he'd go all day. He won't give up if the ball goes somewhere he can't get. One of the things I like to do with him is hide it and then have him find it. Saves me from throwing it a million times and lets him work his brain and nose along with his muscles. 

This pic is from when he just came home.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Testing that pup...I had a call yesterday to test an 11 week old Rottie for PPD training and use. Sure, look into the eyes of a little kid an see if he/she wil be the next cop, doctor, teacher, business owner, or convict. Look into the eyes of an puppy to see the abilities of at 11 weeks...
> 
> Retrieve drives can help, checking for noise issues can help, checking for dominance can, but this is getting too tough. Anyone got a magic globe that I can borrow.? =D>


I get calls all the time from people who want me to pick them a puppy from one of my litters at 8 weeks and ship it to them. They want a "National Level" dog. When you are finished with that magic globe can I borrow it too?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> If I do my job right I build enough drive that by the time they are adults they will litterally pass out from playing and retrieving, but I always keep the sessions short and leave them wanting more.


I have nothing to add to the op but Mikes statement makes me laugh I am working retrieving foundation on a long line with my dog. Fast go out pick up and return with a small sausage/toy reps. I have a assistant checking my dog on the long line. We did well over 50 as fast as I/we could go retrieves. I literally almost blacked out and was seeing stars yesterday from sending, tossing, calling, cheering the dog never grew tired.
I still want to do several more sessions like this before I introduce the dumbbell I hope it don't kill me.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have had dogs that did not get that interested in retrieving until they were older.


I've had a few like that, maybe until 8 months or so. This one turned out with a descent retrieve, and acceptable hunt drive. His hardness and fight drive, made up for it all.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've had a few like that, maybe until 8 months or so. This one turned out with a descent retrieve, and acceptable hunt drive. His hardness and fight drive, made up for it all.


Yes, you often hear of sport and patrol dogs that have mediocre retrieve drive, yet their love of the fight/bite makes them more than suitable for their work.

Even for SAR dogs if the reward is a fight/tug session with victim and the dog LOVES that it will search long time for it. It may not find a ball tossed in the grass that interesting, so be it.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I get calls all the time from people who want me to pick them a puppy from one of my litters at 8 weeks and ship it to them. They want a "National Level" dog. When you are finished with that magic globe can I borrow it too?


I realize that pups can be a crap shoot. That said I am sold on starting with a pup in my dicipline. Bringing a 1 year old dog with the kind of drive I am looking for to my work with no experience in those surroundings would likely invlove more time and corrections than I have or like to use. Think thosands of people moving quickly downhill that look like they are in bite suits, calling your dog, and your new dog off leash moving around the ski area with you

It can be done (and is by a few), but it is a lot of work vs. the dog being used to that environment from the begining.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Whatever _motivates them_, to do the job  Nothing wrong with variety.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I realize that pups can be a crap shoot. That said I am sold on starting with a pup in my dicipline. Bringing a 1 year old dog with the kind of drive I am looking for to my work with no experience in those surroundings would likely invlove more time and corrections than I have or like to use. Think thosands of people moving quickly downhill that look like they are in bite suits, calling your dog, and your new dog off leash moving around the ski area with you
> 
> It can be done (and is by a few), but it is a lot of work vs. the dog being used to that environment from the begining.


I can never deny the pride and satisfaction in raising a puppy and training it to work to your needs. But by testing a dog at 1 year old you can find a dog that has all of the working drives and nerves that you want, with perfect health and you can also find one that has never done bitework, (so he wont be interested in the skiers and their winter "bite suits")
For example, I get many dogs from Europe with excellent drives that were started in sports like flyball, agility, or maybe competion frisby work. These dogs are usually great prospects for detection work where super social and neutral dogs are required.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: My next goal is to figure out why some dogs with CRAZY retrieve drive do NOT make good search dogs. And conversly why I have seen some search dogs with medium retrieve drive that are GREAT search dogs. That said, I am a fan of the big natural retrieve drive

Isn't what you are looking for "hunt drive" ??? Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with retrieving.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I can never deny the pride and satisfaction in raising a puppy and training it to work to your needs. But by testing a dog at 1 year old you can find a dog that has all of the working drives and nerves that you want, with perfect health and you can also find one that has never done bitework, (so he wont be interested in the skiers and their winter "bite suits")
> For example, I get many dogs from Europe with excellent drives that were started in sports like flyball, agility, or maybe competion frisby work. These dogs are usually great prospects for detection work where super social and neutral dogs are required.



Even if not trained in bitework, it is my experience that skiers/ snowboarders and the crazy stuff they do, trigger the dog's prey drive or interest in the very least. 

It is VERY difficult to manage a dog on leash on skis, one ski edge (yours or someone elses) touching the dog's tendon could be career ending. Teaching the dog to ignore others but ski with you in a way that you don't kill it is something I would rather teach over time from the begining.

You are totally correct that an older dog (1-2 years) with good nerves may be able to handle all the weird stuff that working at a ski hill may bring. A very experienced friend has a dog she got from the RCMP kennel at 10 months and let me say that though the dog is very social and has great nerves ...it is still a BIG challenge:lol: But she loves it:wink: 

I think there are ways you can stack the odds in your favor by choosing a suitable puppy. You just can't be afraid to wash it if it doesn't work out.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Isn't what you are looking for "hunt drive" ??? Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with retrieving.


Sure...but even MORE difficult to assess in a 8 week old puppy, no?! I am always curious how people see the relationship between prey, retrieving and hunting.

In this op I was thinking more about if people had clues at 8 weeks that their pup would be a retrieve-a-holic by lets say 14 weeks...or 20 weeks and how that craze for retrieving came about. I think I got some good answers. Nothing mind blowing, but there are people here that have seen A LOT more pups than I have, so just thought I would ask.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I always thought it's more of an evaluation of persistance, vs retrieve. At least looking at my dogs. I'd rather see a pup who is determined to find/get whatever at all cost, than one who will simply chase something and bring it back. Like Bob'e example with pet dogs. So far, Cyko is my only one who's a crazy retriever, he started out that way, and yes, he will go until heatstroke if I don't stop him. That was a surprise for me, I had no idea dogs could be that crazy. He is not naturally talented at searching, but his persistance makes up for it. 

Also "talent", the correct mental wiring or whatever - I have one dog who retrieves ok, loves to fight over the ball or tug, but absolutely lacks the ability to search when his toy is thrown into an area. He'll look where it's been before if he's done a few retrieves already, but doesn't seem to grasp the concept of searching where it WASN'T...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Sounds like you have a valid reason for raising a puppy, Jennifer. In order to stack the odds in your favor though, how 'bout something a little older like 6 months old? That way you can have a better idea of what the pup is like, but still be able to control and shape what you want? Just a thought.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Sounds like you have a valid reason for raising a puppy, Jennifer. In order to stack the odds in your favor though, how 'bout something a little older like 6 months old? That way you can have a better idea of what the pup is like, but still be able to control and shape what you want? Just a thought.


It would not be out of the question.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Hey Jennifer:
Is avalanche season over? 
Anyway, retrieves and puppies; it depends on breed and bloodlines. One of my favorite gsd bloodlines, the pups at 8 wks didn't show much ball interest but always developed it by age 6-7 mos. 
The jury is still out for malinois, because I know what bloodlines I like and don't know about the rest.
Then there are the border collies and you can ask master border collie breeder/handler/trainers for their input. However, then you have to screen against sound sensitivity with the breed but they do have smooth coats so you won't have to worry about the fringe getting ice-balls. 
There is some muddy waters for you to sort through. What breed are you considering?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Melody Greba said:


> Hey Jennifer:
> Is avalanche season over?
> Anyway, retrieves and puppies; it depends on breed and bloodlines. One of my favorite gsd bloodlines, the pups at 8 wks didn't show much ball interest but always developed it by age 6-7 mos.
> The jury is still out for malinois, because I know what bloodlines I like and don't know about the rest.
> ...



The ski resort we work at is closed for the season now, but avalanche season is not over here. I am still driving around with truck full of winter SAR set up and skis like a real SAR geek. That said most recreationalist are starting to think golfing, biking, quading...not skiing and snowmobiling though there is still losts of snow, conditions are not epic.

A fellow patroller at my work just got a BC pup from a stock dog breeder/trainier, I look froward to seeing how it progresses. It is super confident, no nerve issues, loves to tug... but I have seen a couple BC's washed for sound sensitivity and other weird crap. I like BC's okay, wouldn't want to limit myself to the smooth coats out there though and just don't want to go with longer hair again.

Considering a Mal due to best combo of drive, agility, size, coat....


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

I remembered you mentioning the ice balls in the hair, so I just figured you're interested in a dog less proned to it like short hair instead of a rough coat BC. 

So I guess you aren't a gsd person?

After all these years of having a gsd, for our disaster work; I do like the mals ALOT! Never in my wildest dreams would I have ever thought that a mal could lack in ball drive or fight/tug drive, though. I thought that was a gimme. 
But apparently, there are some out there. (I never would've imagined)

I knew my mal's sire for several years from the time he was imported. A truly tremendous dog but also with some idiosynchrasis that takes experience to understand. He was certainly more dog than what most people want in mal but I considered these assets, not limitations. So I got a pup and I have to say that I truly adore my mal. But he makes me work hard, because his work ethic is insatiable and to keep him happy, he must have complex mind exercises and physical challenges.

One of the breeders that I have heard very good things about is Mike's Place in Holland. He has a very interesting breeding, right now. Just thought it was worth mentioning.


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