# How to be a pack leader ??????



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

There's much talk about being a pack leader...regarding puppy development....

Can somebody please explain this in more details... Especially regarding what a puppy sees/feels/responds to....

To be honest, I probably know what I'm asking...but I always like clarification and i'm a big believer in that nobody knows it all....

Thanks

Gary


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> There's much talk about being a pack leader...regarding puppy development....
> 
> Can somebody please explain this in more details... Especially regarding what a puppy sees/feels/responds to....
> 
> ...


The dog knows from your demeanor and your actions that you are in charge. The dog knows that you make the decisions, and also that you will protect the pack..... and that the job isn't open.

The dog knows that you are the source of all things.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> The dog knows that you will protect the pack..... and that the job isn't open.


Having said that...there'll be a time in the future...when the dog will be able to protect the pack better than me...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> Having said that...there'll be a time in the future...when the dog will be able to protect the pack better than me...


Depends on the dog and the individuals leadership. Most dogs may never have the desire, charater, ability to be a true protector. They act out because of a LACK of leadership on the owners part.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Depends on the dog and the individuals leadership. Most dogs may never have the desire, charater, ability to be a true protector. They act out because of a LACK of leadership on the owners part.


Mmmm... I understand your point...

However, I know many a good K9 partnership where the dog protects the handler based on several positives. The love/respect for the handler. The genetics of the dog. etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Without the correct genetics AND correct training the dog WILL bail out due to self preservation. All the love and respect doesn't mean a thing if the dog feels it's own life is threatened. 
My own GSD is a fantastic sport dog, buddy, family dog, even watchdog. I feel in my heart that he will bite to protect me. Staying IN the fight when under pressure, without training for it, is doubtful.
Being a good leader also means my dog should rely on ME to be the protector.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> .... Being a good leader also means my dog should rely on ME to be the protector.


'Zackly. You said it better. :>)


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

I think you're both right...to a point....

I mean...one spends hundreds and hundreds of hours on training a sport dog..the last thing you want to do is send that dog into a situations where it's critically injured...

Having said that, I like to concentrate on civil training, as well as sport... so that dog isn't always waiting for a sleeve...or someone stood behind the 6th Hide in scratch pants..

On the subject of police and military working dogs...the handler is still the pack leader, yet the dog takes on the role of protector....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm not LEO or MWD but the dog in that TEAM is not there as a protector. He's there for apprehension, detection, etc. If the need arizes the dog should go to the aid of it's handler. They, as a team will protect one another but that's not a primary function. 
LEOS and MWD handlers correct me if I'm wrong on this.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

You are correct Bob. While "devotion" to handler may play a role, it's training that accomplishes those tasks.

DFrost


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

ok, on the same subject then...lets talk about personal protection dogs...and their role...

There can still be a 'bond' etc with the handler..and the handler be the leader...yet a protective detail be at the forefront of the dog's mind...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If your talking about a trained PPD, I agree 100%. Even then there are a ton of PPDs that are poorly trained and genetically not qualified for the job.
Are there naturally protective dogs out there? Of course, but without good training it's a rare dog that will truely hold it's ground under true pressure. 
That can only be determined by training under pressure.
Again, my own dog will show defence of our house, car and family. He's Sch I and has shown a serious civil side. Would I rely on him to physically protect me? No! He hasn't had the training for it and has never been tested beyond a threat.
Now...my old, one eyed, gimpy JRT will eat badguys for breakfast.


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

" I know many a good K9 partnership where the dog protects the handler based on several positives. The love/respect for the handler. "" WOW!!


How do I say this without offending anyone...... In my own opinion which aint worth squat, here it goes. We love our dogs THEY DO NOT LOVE US! Love please people stop thinkiing of the dog as a human or something with human emotions or tendecies. Dogs act on natural bred instict and self preservation. They are selfish animals. They perform an action because we have shown them that it is beneficial or detrimental for them. They get sometype of reward or satisfaction of a drive ie.. bite from performing the action we commanded them to. Or some god awful punishment. Dogs want direction and reward. Black and white, People LOVE please we dont even begin to understand it so how can we think a dog performs an action out of love, they like Black and white. No Gray and that is the thing that seems to seperate the men from the boys in training.. He who is better at simplifying the task and making it completely clear then implementing it as black and white to the dog is he who is the better trainer. We must learn a common ability to understand one another so we can put the old addage of "90% of all communication is nonverble" to the test. You can know your dog is confused by his behavior and the simplify the problem even smaller. Dogs will protect you if they feel it has some benefit to them or like was discussed they have seen the situation before and know what is expected of them. 

This whole post may have been way off tilt so for that I am sorry but "Love"..... Please.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joel Anderson said:


> How do I say this without offending anyone...... We love our dogs THEY DO NOT LOVE US! ... stop thinkiing of the dog as a human or something with human emotions or tendecies. Dogs act on natural bred instict and self preservation. They are selfish animals. They perform an action because we have shown them that it is beneficial or detrimental for them..


You're not offending me.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

You've not offended me at all Joel...

I like passion in a post...whether it's accurate or not...or whether I agree with it or not...


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

I am glad because sometimes I think I am a bit too opinionated and I really dont mean to offend people I just like to say things like I believe they are and sometimes thats not very PC and I end up apologizing because people like a bit of sugar on top so to speak.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Per fect post Joel. I _try_ top bring that up at times, but people give me this dumb blank look. I think they think I'm crazy!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joel Anderson said:


> I end up apologizing because people like a bit of sugar on top so to speak.


I heard a good quote on TV over the weekend.

"Don't try to put sugar on bullshlt and call it candy."


:lol:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't necessarily believe that dogs don't love us but I do know they don't do things out of love. Hell, people don't do things out of love (your kids wash the dishes because you get angry if they don't), and people are also very selfish...why expect any more from a dog?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Patricia McConnell's newest book For the Love of Dog goes into this a bit, though I haven't finished the book. I do think dogs can love us and have great affection for us...but love and respect aren't one and the same!


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