# Inanna hurdle training



## David Feliciano

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zKaNYwJQfg

I borrowed a joke from one of my favorite shows. Lets see who can figure it out


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## Gerry Grimwood

Was it...hard ball ??


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## David Feliciano

nope try again


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Was it...hard ball ??


You didn't pay attention watch again for your answer.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Was it from the show..The Aristocrats ??


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## Eric Shearer

Good work Dave.. Also saw the video from Anne's... nice Barks you gotthere... Hit me up next time you head up there and I'll try to meet you...
E


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## Doug Zaga

Dave, nice dog, nice video. 

....I like your dog 

You're a funny guy!

But dude...handlebar mustache


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## Thomas Barriano

David Feliciano said:


> Enjoy
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zKaNYwJQfg
> 
> I borrowed a joke from one of my favorite shows. Lets see who can figure it out



The Simpsons. Troy McClure was a character played by Phil Hartman. Not as obscure as Lance Dior 
I agree about the handle bar mustache, unless of course you're planing on transplanting it to the receding hairline or the monks spot that is rushing to join it from the rear? 
Nice video though. I like Inanna and the use of the park bench.
(I'm too cheap to buy equipment myself ) I like using the park picnic (bench table bench) table to start teaching the climbing needed for the A-frame vs the hurdle jumping.


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## Chris Michalek

I think the handle bar mustache is cool it totally fits his personality. Creative people rule.


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## Joby Becker

Nice vid...nice dog...

I do have a funny story to add about the mustache....it is 100% true...

I work selling tattoo supplies to tattoo shops, I went into a shop this weekend where a girl was tattooing a friend of hers...He said she could put "ANY" tattoo that she wanted to, on his butt....

I came in when it was almost done, and he did not see it yet....he was asking what it was, but she would not tell him yet or let him see it because it was not done yet....

It was on his right ass cheek, it was a butterfly about 4 inches square, with rainbow colored wings, wearing a sombrero, and sporting a handlebar mustache....and the guy was straight...It was pretty f-in funny....

I like to use parks for stuff too...again nice dog...


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## susan tuck

Wow good catch Thomas, I am impressed. 

Really nice video, David. 8)


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## David Feliciano

Thanks for the compliment. Nice catch on the screenname Thomas, but still not the joke I mentioned. 

The joke about her brain size was stolen from Mr. G of Summer Heights High


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## Alice Bezemer

I enjoyed that Vid ! great naration David ;-)

nice dog and i love the name...where did you come up with that ?


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## Thomas Barriano

David Feliciano said:


> Thanks for the compliment. Nice catch on the screenname Thomas, but still not the joke I mentioned.
> 
> The joke about her brain size was stolen from Mr. G of Summer Heights High



David,

No fair using references from HBO series, for those of us to broke to afford cable ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Inanna Queen of Heaven and Earth*



Alice Bezemer said:


> I enjoyed that Vid ! great naration David ;-)
> 
> nice dog and i love the name...where did you come up with that ?


Inanna Sumerian Goddess "Queen of Heaven and Earth"
I "love" unusual descriptive and/ or power names for my dogs too.


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## David Feliciano

Thomas Barriano said:


> David,
> 
> No fair using references from HBO series, for those of us to broke to afford cable ;-)


I think I have you beat on poorness. I don't even own a television. Google videos has the whole series


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## James Lechernich

My God these look-a-like mustaches!!! Mind-bottling! :mrgreen:




















































btw, nice clip.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Elememtary question comming up...sorry I don't compete in stuff.

How do you teach them back a few steps in the progressions, NOT to put their feet on what they are jumping?

On the mustashe...

I think it should be required that all cops should have a mustashe. All PSD handlers for sure. Optional for the ladies. It just should be so :lol:


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## David Feliciano

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Elememtary question comming up...sorry I don't compete in stuff.
> 
> How do you teach them back a few steps in the progressions, NOT to put their feet on what they are jumping?


First I started out jumping her over something so short that she wouldn't touch. I reinforced this over and over until she was conditioned to enjoy the jump. Then I started to have sit on one side of a jump and jump then come into front position. I did this over a very short jump until she understood the exercise well.

I then repeated the same exercise over a jump made of pvc that will collapse if she touches. This allowed me to mark her mistake plus made it obvious to her what the mistake I am marking was. 

My only problem now is that she sometimes touches if she is in a very high state of drive and its her first time on that jump. This is why I am making lots of reps in a lower drive state and having her jump many different types of jumps from varying distances and angles. This will make her negotiate what she is jumping. Once she is in the habit of doing that I can start to work her in a higher drive state.


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## Timothy Stacy

The dog looks good David and you seem more normal than usual. 
That stache made me think of this, no offense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkwZHDNJlWA&feature=player_embedded
Again the dog looks good!


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## Jennifer Coulter

David Feliciano said:


> First I started out jumping her over something so short that she wouldn't touch. I reinforced this over and over until she was conditioned to enjoy the jump. Then I started to have sit on one side of a jump and jump then come into front position. I did this over a very short jump until she understood the exercise well.
> 
> I then repeated the same exercise over a jump made of pvc that will collapse if she touches. This allowed me to mark her mistake plus made it obvious to her what the mistake I am marking was.
> 
> My only problem now is that she sometimes touches if she is in a very high state of drive and its her first time on that jump. This is why I am making lots of reps in a lower drive state and having her jump many different types of jumps from varying distances and angles. This will make her negotiate what she is jumping. Once she is in the habit of doing that I can start to work her in a higher drive state.


Thanks!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 

I then repeated the same exercise over a jump made of pvc that will collapse if she touches. This allowed me to mark her mistake plus made it obvious to her what the mistake I am marking was. 

THis works well with lower drive dogs, or dogs with environmental issues. If you have a dog with some juice, they will not care at all. I have a jump that hurts when dogs like Buko, or Soda hit it. It works really well. If the jump falls apart, neither one of them gives two shits. It is just a big difference in the types of dogs. If you have a dog that cares because the jump falls, then you would use that. If you have a dog that could care less, then how he trains is not going to work as well. 

Might want to think about that when you are choosing a way to train your dog. : )


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 
> I then repeated the same exercise over a jump made of pvc that will collapse if she touches. This allowed me to mark her mistake plus made it obvious to her what the mistake I am marking was.
> 
> THis works well with lower drive dogs, or dogs with environmental issues. If you have a dog with some juice, they will not care at all. I have a jump that hurts when dogs like Buko, or Soda hit it. It works really well. If the jump falls apart, neither one of them gives two shits. It is just a big difference in the types of dogs. If you have a dog that cares because the jump falls, then you would use that. If you have a dog that could care less, then how he trains is not going to work as well.
> 
> Might want to think about that when you are choosing a way to train your dog. : )


I was actually thinking the same thing, not to rag on Davids dog whatsoever.


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## Faisal Khan

Very nice, totally agree about the dog getting too loaded and smacking the hurdle. My dog does the same, our TD has me practice some OB to bring the drive down before jumping for now.


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## Christopher Smith

Christopher Jones said:


> I was actually thinking the same thing, not to rag on Davids dog whatsoever.


You can teach the dog to care.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes that was addressed. However, some dogs care a lot less than others. Weak dogs will be afraid of the falling jump. Big difference in training methods.


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## David Feliciano

I hear ya Jeff. She knocked a wooden jump over, it fell on top of her, and she finished her retrieve like nothing. Pain and environment don't phase her for jumping, so I've had to get a little more cerebral with my methodology.

The jump that collapses doesn't phase or shut her down at all. It just makes it very obvious why I am telling her no. She figured out that I want the jump in tact after she jumps it. The only way to accomplish that is to not touch the fragile jump.


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## David Feliciano

Its nice to have marker training. If she touches I give a no reward mark and she gets no ball. The problem is she was having a hard time figuring out what I was marking when she touched. If pain or environment phased her the problem would have corrected itself. The collapseable jump made it clear what I was marking.


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## Chris Michalek

I used a collapsible jump too.


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris Michalek said:


> I used a collapsible jump too.



I think Davids theory fits in with the whole idea of the Mondio and French Ring hurdle. The top rung is loosely fitted and a distinct
signal that the dog is wrong if it falls?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 
> I then repeated the same exercise over a jump made of pvc that will collapse if she touches. This allowed me to mark her mistake plus made it obvious to her what the mistake I am marking was.
> 
> THis works well with lower drive dogs, or dogs with environmental issues. If you have a dog with some juice, they will not care at all. I have a jump that hurts when dogs like Buko, or Soda hit it. It works really well. If the jump falls apart, neither one of them gives two shits. It is just a big difference in the types of dogs. If you have a dog that cares because the jump falls, then you would use that. If you have a dog that could care less, then how he trains is not going to work as well.
> 
> Might want to think about that when you are choosing a way to train your dog. : )


Okay Jeff, I am thinking about that. So how do you train your non nerve bags that touching the jump is a no no and that the object is to jump them clear? David has given me an exlanation of his method, I am keen to hear yours, there may also be ideas that I might find helpful.


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## Alice Bezemer

Now im not sure what kind of measure's you use to make sure that the dog doesnt touch the jumping fence or whatever it is that its jumping at any certain time...what kind of helps do you use ? within the KNPV we have several things we use...the collapsable fence being one (and not my favorite coze most dogs just dont give a shit) now im going to make a stupid suggestion here ;-) have you ever tried brooms ? mount to large broomheads on a board and put that over the jumpfence...most dogs hate the broombristles and will try and avoid to touch them...theres also the very simple but also very effective elastic band...use 2 black thick elastic bands (like they use to secure tarps on trailers) and connect them then put 2 pins in the ground on either side of the fence and stretch the elastic over it about 4 inches above the fence...again a good measure to try out...it will not work with every dog ofcourse but a good 80% will respond to this type of thing...

just throwing my 2 cents out there ;-)


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## Jennifer Coulter

Alice Bezemer said:


> Now im not sure what kind of measure's you use to make sure that the dog doesnt touch the jumping fence or whatever it is that its jumping at any certain time...what kind of helps do you use ? within the KNPV we have several things we use...the collapsable fence being one (and not my favorite coze most dogs just dont give a shit) now im going to make a stupid suggestion here ;-) have you ever tried brooms ? mount to large broomheads on a board and put that over the jumpfence...most dogs hate the broombristles and will try and avoid to touch them...theres also the very simple but also very effective elastic band...use 2 black thick elastic bands (like they use to secure tarps on trailers) and connect them then put 2 pins in the ground on either side of the fence and stretch the elastic over it about 4 inches above the fence...again a good measure to try out...it will not work with every dog ofcourse but a good 80% will respond to this type of thing...
> 
> just throwing my 2 cents out there ;-)


Thanks...I would love to hear all sorts of ideas and progressions such as David outlined for me. Being someone that lives in the middle of nowhere, just seeing the end product is nice, but hearing about how different people get there is great!


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## Christopher Smith

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Okay Jeff, I am thinking about that. So how do you train your non nerve bags that touching the jump is a no no and that the object is to jump them clear? David has given me an exlanation of his method, I am keen to hear yours, there may also be ideas that I might find helpful.


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## Konnie Hein

Alice Bezemer said:


> Now im not sure what kind of measure's you use to make sure that the dog doesnt touch the jumping fence or whatever it is that its jumping at any certain time...what kind of helps do you use ?


We use these props:
1. Teaching a puppy proper jumping technique using cavaletti's when they are really young (similar to training horses for jumping).
2. A jump with a metal bar at the top
3. No reward when clipping the jump
4. A crop to tap their rear legs from underneath as they go over
5. A "place" command to teach them how far to go out away from the jump for success on the return jump

Some dogs need more of these props than others.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Konnie Hein said:


> We use these props:
> 1. Teaching a puppy proper jumping technique using cavaletti's when they are really young (similar to training horses for jumping).
> 2. A jump with a metal bar at the top
> 3. No reward when clipping the jump
> 4. A crop to tap their rear legs from underneath as they go over
> 5. A "place" command to teach them how far to go out away from the jump for success on the return jump
> 
> Some dogs need more of these props than others.


I had to google cavaletti I would love to see it if anyone has any vid of using a riding crop while the dog jumps over.

Sorry, I may have derailed this thread...maybe there should be one about how different people teach the jumps...or maybe David doesn't mind me using this one?


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## Konnie Hein

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I had to google cavaletti I would love to see it if anyone has any vid of using a riding crop while the dog jumps over.
> 
> Sorry, I may have derailed this thread...maybe there should be one about how different people teach the jumps...or maybe David doesn't mind me using this one?


It's just a touch, Jennifer. As the dog is going over, the handler is standing next to the jump. He/she holds the crop horizontally next to the jump and then flicks up the crop at the dog's rear legs as the dog is going over the jump. It's supposed to cause the dog to pull up his rear legs as the dog is going over the jump.


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## Alice Bezemer

Konnie Hein said:


> It's just a touch, Jennifer. As the dog is going over, the handler is standing next to the jump. He/she holds the crop horizontally next to the jump and then flicks up the crop at the dog's rear legs as the dog is going over the jump. It's supposed to cause the dog to pull up his rear legs as the dog is going over the jump.


i do the same thing sometimes but its not always as effective in my eyes...i found an irritation on the feet works much better since they try and pull their legs in a lot...like a deer so to speak...but there are many ays that lead to rome...this being one of the many...thanks for expl. what you use as jumping aides ;-)


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## Jennifer Coulter

Konnie Hein said:


> It's just a touch, Jennifer. As the dog is going over, the handler is standing next to the jump. He/she holds the crop horizontally next to the jump and then flicks up the crop at the dog's rear legs as the dog is going over the jump. It's supposed to cause the dog to pull up his rear legs as the dog is going over the jump.


I think I have a picture in my mind of what that looks like, thanks Konnie.


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## Tim Bartlett

I watched a KNPV club that put a wire across the top of the jump and the wire was attached to a car battery. A pretty medival method but all the dogs I watched jump it never came close to touching the jump..... :razz:


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## Alice Bezemer

Tim Bartlett said:


> I watched a KNPV club that put a wire across the top of the jump and the wire was attached to a car battery. A pretty medival method but all the dogs I watched jump it never came close to touching the jump..... :razz:


ive used low voltage jumping aides but i aint never seen them use a carbattery before...spose they were trying to save money or something coze theres stuff you can buy to create a low voltage current thats way smaller and easier to place then a 15 pnd weighing carbattery. and i dont use a wire but i have a bracket that i can place over the jump where the wires are stapled onto it...


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## Thomas Barriano

Tim Bartlett said:


> I watched a KNPV club that put a wire across the top of the jump and the wire was attached to a car battery. A pretty medival method but all the dogs I watched jump it never came close to touching the jump..... :razz:


Tim,

I've got an old tri- tronics device I picked up on ebay, that works on the same idea. A metal piece that sits on top of the hurdle that you can plug into your regular e-collar. With the new collars you have a large range of corrections. From a little tickle, that kind of gently reminds the dog not to touch. To a max charge where the dog will never step on the jump for the rest of their life


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## Rik Wolterbeek

I have used the stick in the past that you could buy from Ray Allen. the stick was made from PVC and it had 4 or 5 copper wires on it. You could place it on top of a hurdle and then hook it up to an E collar that would sit next to the jump. Hooking a wire up to a battery would not work, hooking it up to the alternator works great. I was able to make everything "electric" in the past using one of those old field telephones, from the box to the chair to a rifle on the ground.Even keeping a dog next to you on the start could be done with an electric mat.

Rik Wolterbeek


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## David Feliciano

The problem I find with electric bars on the jumps is the dog MUST have a foundation of forced jumping first. The dog has to know that he can't go around the jump or refuse to jump before you add the electric bar otherwise he will try to find the easy way out. If the dog already understands the forced jump he will learn to deal with the electric jump bar.

I don't do forced jumping and would have major fall out if I tried an electric jump bar. Just my .02


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Oh yeah, forced jumping. yeah, thats the ticket, FORCE them to jump. LOL

Where on earth do you find these people ?

If you have taught the jump, and the dog hits the bar because he is an ass that doesn't care, electricity is the way to go. If your dog is not as much as you think it is, it will melt, and start refusing the jump.

Force jumping ??


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## Alice Bezemer

David Feliciano said:


> The problem I find with electric bars on the jumps is the dog MUST have a foundation of forced jumping first. The dog has to know that he can't go around the jump or refuse to jump before you add the electric bar otherwise he will try to find the easy way out. If the dog already understands the forced jump he will learn to deal with the electric jump bar.
> 
> I don't do forced jumping and would have major fall out if I tried an electric jump bar. Just my .02


Like i said many ways lead to rome ;-) where as you dont use force, which in my eyes is asking the dog to do something, i do use force if needed, i dont ask i tell them. they thing is what if your dog wont jump correctly regardless of what you try david ? Now we are both in a completly different sports so we both need to take that in account here but are you willing to use force then ?

I always start without using force but if the dog isnt willing to do that which is demanded i will use force. then again its also looking at what you consider to be FORCE to begin with and i dont consider using atributes to jump a dog FORCE

just my .04 ;-)


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## David Feliciano

Thomas Barriano said:


> I think Davids theory fits in with the whole idea of the Mondio and French Ring hurdle. The top rung is loosely fitted and a distinct
> signal that the dog is wrong if it falls?


Thomas nailed it. Some times its hard for me to articulate exactly what's going on, but those who have enough experience can see it.

I've got to give Thomas credit though. As much as he enjoys stirring the pot, he has been showing some knowledge on here lately.


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## David Feliciano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Force jumping ?? What kind of asshole would even think of this shit ?? GOT to be a Sch guy.


Its quite common in schutzhund (especially GSD) to see handlers dragging young dogs back and forth across the jump. The dog touches from the beginning so later they force it to jump over something painful and it learns not to touch. Brutal and old school IMO. I'm surprised you don't know this considering you claim to have spent a considerable amount of time in the sport way back when this was even more popular.




Alice Bezemer said:


> Like i said many ways lead to rome ;-) where as you dont use force, which in my eyes is asking the dog to do something, i do use force if needed, i dont ask i tell them. they thing is what if your dog wont jump correctly regardless of what you try david ? Now we are both in a completly different sports so we both need to take that in account here but are you willing to use force then ?
> 
> I always start without using force but if the dog isnt willing to do that which is demanded i will use force. then again its also looking at what you consider to be FORCE to begin with and i dont consider using atributes to jump a dog FORCE
> 
> just my .04 ;-)


My "force" is put into other areas. I like the hurdle to be as stress free as possible. I may use some force if the dog doesn't directly hunt for the dumbbell once it clears the hurdle or doesn't quickly turn around once it picks up the retrieve item.

I also use a little bit of force after the dog initially learns to jump a low jump. I teach the dog that it must not go around the jump or refuse to jump.

Later I add the height and it saves me a lot of hassle


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## David Feliciano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you have taught the jump, and the dog hits the bar because he is an ass that doesn't care, electricity is the way to go. If your dog is not as much as you think it is, it will melt, and start refusing the jump.


This is fine and dandy for a task oriented sport like Mondio or French Ring where you basically receive full points if the dog executes the task. 

For schutzhund aesthetics make a huge difference. Not to mention that the retrieve itself is a bigger portion of this exercise then the actual hurdle. Stress can manifest itself is so many ways in this exercise. Your dog, Buko, has problems with the retrieve on the flat. At the nationals he refused to jump. If you added a retrieve to the meter jump he might spontaneously combust!!!


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## David Feliciano

Jeff, you also have you remember that you don't get three tries for the jump in schutzhund! I find it no surprise that your dog found a sand bag more interesting than the jump at the Mondio nationals.


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## David Ruby

Alice Bezemer said:


> Like i said many ways lead to rome ;-) where as you dont use force, which in my eyes is asking the dog to do something, i do use force if needed, i dont ask i tell them. they thing is what if your dog wont jump correctly regardless of what you try david ? Now we are both in a completly different sports so we both need to take that in account here but are you willing to use force then ?
> 
> *I always start without using force but if the dog isnt willing to do that which is demanded i will use force.* then again its also looking at what you consider to be FORCE to begin with and i dont consider using atributes to jump a dog FORCE
> 
> just my .04 ;-)


Maybe a dumb question, and aimed at both the use-PVC-to-avoid-forcing/stress AND the use-jumps-that-hurt crowds . . .

Wouldn't/Don't you just start out doing no-stress teaching jumps, then correct the behavior however if the dog does it wrong?

For the PVC/avoid-force crowd, if/when your dog doesn't do the jump, do you correct the dog? I'd imagine that would stay constant if it was a jump that hurt or not (e.g. PVC, wooden jump, high-volt wire, etc.). If not, how do you motivate your dog if they decide they don't want to and you know they can do it?

For the jumps-that-are-painful or forced-jump crowd, if you I'm also guessing you start out with uber-low jumps that they can't NOT make. What is the difference in the dog's mind between a jump that bothers them or is painful to whack into, vs. a PVC jump that they are inclined to jump right because you are either going to make them jump over again until they get it right? Why wouldn't either version work, since they are getting some form of correction and you're making them do it until they get it right? It seems like it would just be a matter of the correction coming from you (either a "no" or clicker-click or whatever, and maybe a simple pop on the leash if they decide they aren't going to jump) or from the equipment (e.g. just the natural consequence of a hard [or electric?] jump being painful or just annoying to have whack their knees/feet/whatever making them jump higher and tuck the feet).

Not criticizing either method, I could see using whichever method fit your usual training mode and then trying the other if/when it was necessary (e.g. develop a firm foundation w/ PVC then maybe try a less-forgiving jump if they decide to not care about the PVC or your correcting/marking behavior, or use a less-forgiving jump/hurdle and switch to a PVC or spinner jump [or broom jump, that sounds pretty ingenious] to make it totally obvious what you're correcting or brush it up or to just make sure they aren't lightly glancing in a way that was not AS obvious with a hard wooden jump).

I could see either being effective without being mutually exclusive with both having their place depending. But feel free to tell me how & where I'm wrong.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby

Regarding the above:

1) If you use both and vary it depending on the dog, I _think_ you are doing things how I'm envisioning things to happen.

2) It's entirely possible I need a large coffee if that came across as a bit rambling and incoherent (moreso than usual, that is). It's been a long, tiresome day.

-Cheers


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## Laura Bollschweiler

David Feliciano said:


> Its quite common in schutzhund (especially GSD) to see handlers dragging young dogs back and forth across the jump. The dog touches from the beginning so later they force it to jump over something painful and it learns not to touch. Brutal and old school IMO. I'm surprised you don't know this considering you claim to have spent a considerable amount of time in the sport way back when this was even more popular.


I haven't seen anybody dragging a young dog across a jump. Maybe it's not as common as you think. 

Laura


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## Alice Bezemer

David Ruby said:


> Maybe a dumb question, and aimed at both the use-PVC-to-avoid-forcing/stress AND the use-jumps-that-hurt crowds . . .*the only dumb question that exists is the question you dont ask ! ;-)*
> 
> Wouldn't/Don't you just start out doing no-stress teaching jumps, then correct the behavior however if the dog does it wrong?
> 
> *ofcourse we do, you cant teach a dog what its doing wrong when its never learned how to do it in the first place....we start out by teaching it in a fun easy way and build from there.*
> 
> For the PVC/avoid-force crowd, if/when your dog doesn't do the jump, do you correct the dog? I'd imagine that would stay constant if it was a jump that hurt or not (e.g. PVC, wooden jump, high-volt wire, etc.). If not, how do you motivate your dog if they decide they don't want to and you know they can do it?
> 
> For the jumps-that-are-painful or forced-jump crowd, if you I'm also guessing you start out with uber-low jumps that they can't NOT make. What is the difference in the dog's mind between a jump that bothers them or is painful to whack into, vs. a PVC jump that they are inclined to jump right because you are either going to make them jump over again until they get it right? Why wouldn't either version work, since they are getting some form of correction and you're making them do it until they get it right? It seems like it would just be a matter of the correction coming from you (either a "no" or clicker-click or whatever, and maybe a simple pop on the leash if they decide they aren't going to jump) or from the equipment (e.g. just the natural consequence of a hard [or electric?] jump being painful or just annoying to have whack their knees/feet/whatever making them jump higher and tuck the feet).
> 
> *lol...ehm how to answer this correctly...i start a dog jumping by taking a few slats from the jump and coaching him to jump over the remaing slats...i use a ball or a dummy which i lob over the jump and he jumps over (leaning heavely on the slats ofcourse) the fact that he leans to begin with isnt a problem for me...it has to be fun to start with and in order to learn...as soon as he gets the whole jumping idea i start helping him by tugging his leash during his jump...so as to give him more height...usualy that will do the trick and some dogs will respond to this...i also teach the dog a correct place to sit in order for it to make the jump without touching the slats...if hes to close up he cant make it, to far is the same problem...now you wonder why either version wouldnt work in KNPV...thats where the dogs come into play....in my eyes KNPV dogs are not the sort of dogs that respond to a NO, clicker click or whatever and a simple pop on the leash will in most cases get you a pissed of or unresponsive dog at best and a very angry or unwilling dog at worst...our dogs have a lot of fight in em and they are more then willing to take up the challenge plus i dont subscribe to the whole "jump em untill the do it" routine...its a useless routine in my eyes since it will tire out the dog and make it more likely to hit the fence then not hit it...a vicious circle if you will, whereas when using aides like electrics, or a ridingcrop or a broombrush can give very quick results and not tire out the dog at all...ok it irritates the hell out if the dog, to bad JUMP RIGHT and it wont be so irritating now will it ? i know its a very black and white picture im painting but i feel that every dog should be trained black and white...there are NO grey areas when training dogs...any grey areas that you make will give the dog a chance to abuse or misread the situation.*
> 
> Not criticizing either method, I could see using whichever method fit your usual training mode and then trying the other if/when it was necessary (e.g. develop a firm foundation w/ PVC then maybe try a less-forgiving jump if they decide to not care about the PVC or your correcting/marking behavior, or use a less-forgiving jump/hurdle and switch to a PVC or spinner jump [or broom jump, that sounds pretty ingenious] to make it totally obvious what you're correcting or brush it up or to just make sure they aren't lightly glancing in a way that was not AS obvious with a hard wooden jump).
> 
> I could see either being effective without being mutually exclusive with both having their place depending. But feel free to tell me how & where I'm wrong.
> 
> *Im not saying your wrong in any way...what i will say is that every dog has its own way in which you need to reach it to take advantage of its full potential...i have had dogs that could work fine using the softer treatment and i have had dogs that saw the softer treatment as a challenge to piss me of at every corner...and fight me every inch of the way...simple fact is the dogs i use come from such bloodlines that they have just that bit more fight in them and endurance then the average bred mali or dutchie....i think selena said it on forum somewhere...they breed according to the demands that are being made of the dog....hence our dogs as mostly lightly/highly flammable and will easier take to fighting you then to following orders... or atleast that is my experiance ;-)*
> 
> -Cheers


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Ruby said:


> Regarding the above:
> 
> 1) If you use both and vary it depending on the dog, I _think_ you are doing things how I'm envisioning things to happen.
> *You can envision all you like...it all depends on the dog at the end of the leash on how you are actualy going to deal with it and work it...every dog has it own issues but i understand where you are coming from tho ;-)*
> 
> 2) It's entirely possible I need a large coffee if that came across as a bit rambling and incoherent (moreso than usual, that is). It's been a long, tiresome day.
> *well if your grabbin a coffee make mine LARGE, BLACK and industrial strength please :mrgreen: *
> 
> -Cheers


----------



## Mo Earle

Inanna looks good, and I like the use of the park bench.... I have taught the hurdle with it being a fun thing for the dog....starting out low, a very easy jump tossing their tug or ball, I haven't ever forced them over the jump, some needed a LOT of encouragement...but if they refuse it, I start working it, so they don't even realize that is what they are about to do, by tossing something they really want, and that is the only way they are going to be able to obtain it....once the dog is jumping easily... I start adding height slowly- once they get the height...then I drop the height and add the placement/control stuff....still keeping it fun, when I know they understand the exercise= I go back to the height, and I usually use the lowest pvc pipe that comes from the jump itself and as the dog is going over , touch his back legs (from underneath the dog) sweeping his legs out....so far that technique has worked for me,( I didn't come up with this myself, but luckily a very smart Ringer, was willing to share it with me.\\/)....and I am always interested in learning others techniques too- (well...only if they make sense, and seem like they could work for certain dogs)


----------



## David Ruby

Alice Bezemer said:


> *now you wonder why either version wouldnt work in KNPV...thats where the dogs come into play....in my eyes KNPV dogs are not the sort of dogs that respond to a NO, clicker click or whatever and a simple pop on the leash will in most cases get you a pissed of or unresponsive dog at best and a very angry or unwilling dog at worst...our dogs have a lot of fight in em and they are more then willing to take up the challenge plus i dont subscribe to the whole "jump em untill the do it" routine...its a useless routine in my eyes since it will tire out the dog and make it more likely to hit the fence then not hit it...a vicious circle if you will, whereas when using aides like electrics, or a ridingcrop or a broombrush can give very quick results and not tire out the dog at all...ok it irritates the hell out if the dog, to bad JUMP RIGHT and it wont be so irritating now will it ? i know its a very black and white picture im painting but i feel that every dog should be trained black and white...there are NO grey areas when training dogs...any grey areas that you make will give the dog a chance to abuse or misread the situation.*
> 
> 
> 
> That actually makes a whole lot of sense. And yeah, I like things largely black & white, but mainly so _I_ don't do something that might confuse the dog.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Im not saying your wrong in any way...what i will say is that every dog has its own way in which you need to reach it to take advantage of its full potential...i have had dogs that could work fine using the softer treatment and i have had dogs that saw the softer treatment as a challenge to piss me of at every corner...and fight me every inch of the way...simple fact is the dogs i use come from such bloodlines that they have just that bit more fight in them and endurance then the average bred mali or dutchie....i think selena said it on forum somewhere...they breed according to the demands that are being made of the dog....hence our dogs as mostly lightly/highly flammable and will easier take to fighting you then to following orders... or atleast that is my experiance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I could see your methods being appropriate then because it takes you out of the equation. By that I mean, it's not _you_ that is "correcting them" it's just something they have to do and the environment will annoy them unless they just do it properly, so it's just part of the job (kind of like why you don't get mad at your boss, per se, if he gives you a job and you end up bashing your thumb because you are a klutz with the hammer). In my mental vision, I'm wondering if more biddable, handler-soft dogs might give a crap more about a clicker or a verbal correction. I can see how with your dogs they couldn't really give a crap.
> 
> Thanks for the write-up! I was definitely asking more to see how different dogs react a/o why different people prefer different tactics.
> 
> -Cheers
Click to expand...


----------



## David Feliciano

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I haven't seen anybody dragging a young dog across a jump. Maybe it's not as common as you think.
> 
> Laura


I've seen people that you know doing it. You just may not have seen it. Maybe its more prevalent than you think


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Or maybe your interpretation of "dragging" is different from other people's idea of guiding.
Who knows, could be semantics. Dragging or guiding, not what I do, not what the people I train with do either. Not saying it's never going to be done because as soon as I say that, I'll meet a dog that needs to be dragged over a jump for some reason, mostly to prove me wrong. 

Laura


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: For the jumps-that-are-painful or forced-jump crowd, if you I'm also guessing you start out with uber-low jumps that they can't NOT make. What is the difference in the dog's mind between a jump that bothers them or is painful to whack into, vs. a PVC jump that they are inclined to jump right because you are either going to make them jump over again until they get it right? Why wouldn't either version work, since they are getting some form of correction and you're making them do it until they get it right? It seems like it would just be a matter of the correction coming from you (either a "no" or clicker-click or whatever, and maybe a simple pop on the leash if they decide they aren't going to jump) or from the equipment (e.g. just the natural consequence of a hard [or electric?] jump being painful or just annoying to have whack their knees/feet/whatever making them jump higher and tuck the feet).

The problem with the jumps that I have had is the dog just decides to crash into it. Maybe this is from him being older, as I didn't have problems as bad as I do now when he first figured out what it was that I wanted him to do.

Like the broad jump. Didn't have a problem until two weeks before Nationals. Then he decided to jump to one side. No idea what was going on in his head. 

I can tell you that I taught him to jump close to get that arc for the hurdle. I had never taught the jump that way. He is an interesting dog, and has been from the start.

I taught the place command first, and when he had that real well, going through the uprights perfectly, I put a single bar about 10 inches high, and told him to place. This is what I was told the progression should be.

He ran through the jump, sent the bar flying into the wall, and laid down on his marker. I didn't reward him, and figured he just didn't see it.

I put three bars on there, still about ten inches high. He crashed through them, I told him no, and he turned around and went back to his place at the beginning.

Then I put a piece of plywood in front of the jumps, and tried again, he smashed it with his front feet, sent everything flying and was at his place before it had stopped falling.

He also found this quite amusing. Unfortunately, so did I.

So, what does this tell us about this dog ?

He jumped park benches, walls, fallen trees, and all sorts of stuff when we were not training and I asked him to. I did this separate from the place command.

All dogs are not the same, so go ahead and try and figure out how I got him to jump. At that point, he had everyone stumped. This will be a good exercise for those of you that want to learn.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> All dogs are not the same, so go ahead and try and figure out how I got him to jump. At that point, he had everyone stumped. This will be a good exercise for those of you that want to learn.


Oooooo I like guessing games. The reality is that problem solving in dog training is what make it fun...at least when you are not ready to poke your eyes out with a fork in frustration:lol:

I will start. You are going to tell us eventually right? I mean we don't really know Buko like you do...so you would have the best idea of what might motivate him to clear, or deter him from touching.

Did you stand beside the jump and just before the the dog jumped hold up a toy high to force the dog to jump up and not through?

Did you go to a park and use a swing so that the dog would go for a ride and not get rewarded if he didn't clear it?

K..that is all my guesses for now


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## Timothy Stacy

Nope Jen, hot coals!


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## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So, what does this tell us about this dog ?


That the dog was so pressured and anxious to get to his place marker that he couldn't see straight and crashed the jump?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Timothy Stacy said:


> Nope Jen, hot coals!


That was my next guess Stacy.


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## Bob Scott

We had the top board spin on a pivot when the dog hit it. Just another method we used besides the ones mentioned. Depends on the dog.
Even in my heavy handed training years I've always taught the hurdle as a fun game.
Intentionally letting the dog crash into a solid jump is setting the dog up for injury.
The higher the dog's drive the harder it's going to hit.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Everyone is a dog trainer, just ask them. Then ask them what they would have done to get the dog to jump, and WOW, no answers except Jennifer.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: That the dog was so pressured and anxious to get to his place marker that he couldn't see straight and crashed the jump?

I can see how you would think that. Not really the answer to the question now is it. Everyone is a dog trainer. LOL


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## Bob Scott

I've always been successful in training the jump by starting out low and building. 
It's that simple......but I musta had some pretty laid back, soft terriers. :lol:

Step by step is just as simple. Go back to low jumps and Walk over with the dog and reward. Build from there.
I'm a firm believer that the dog learns better by breaking everything down in small steps.....errrr.....jumps, then putting it all together.
Not a big brain teaser! :wink:


----------



## Eric Read

yeah cause only pressure will make a dog get to a spot it knows will bring reward fast, that or just a strong desire. I'm guessing desire in this case.

anyway, i'd guess a toy up high on a buggy whip held out over the jump and higher or toss up like dock diving might get a dog to follow the toy and jump. 

i'm not a very good trainer, I guess if a dog didn't jump i'd be stumped too. They always just seem to do it, some a bit more ugly than others and try different tricks till we get it right. 

i'm also a slow learner. Thought I had the lower drive to teach thing down, did lots for food and praise to keep the drive lower, show a ball and it was crash every time. Finally got thru that, got some height, got some really good height and clean for food, went a bit higher and thought I knew better.

grabbed a ball for a reward, she saw me, said hop and she launched, thru it, hit the jump with her chest, did a flip over the jump and took the ball from my hands as I stood there like wtf just happened. Note to self, don't use a ball anymore.


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## Carol Boche

I know how Jeff got Buko to jump!!!


----------



## David Ruby

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Everyone is a dog trainer, just ask them.


I'm not a dog trainer. 

But seriously. I'm not.

I'm probably wrong, but did you set up a more solid jump, like a wooden palisade, where the boards didn't fly all over the place? I am kind of wondering if he found it amusing to knock the boards all over (my three year old daughter does the same stuff), and it was functioning as a self-reward. Plus, you know, it might kinda hurt without providing any motivation for him to continue to try and bulldoze through it. It would also kind of make sense since you didn't seem to notice him doing it when jumping over other things, hence maybe there was something fun about the whole process for him (which, admittedly, you've alluded to).

My other guess is you marked it with an e-collar when he plowed through it.

I also wonder if it might have been worth a shot to try lower (just in case) and work on motivating him with whatever he really loves, and get him more excited about what comes _after_ the jump (or at least doing the jump right and THEN getting the huge reward and praise and all that) than what goes on _during_ the jump (him plowing through it, having a blast, and then getting to do it all over again). But even if I'm right, there is the whole matter of timing it, knowing your dog and if said generic advice will work or not, etc., etc. Again, this is why I'm not a dog trainer (at least in part).

-Cheers


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Carol Boche said:


> I know how Jeff got Buko to jump!!!


Did you guess....or did he tell you?  More importantly...are you going to tell US:mrgreen:


----------



## Carol Boche

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Did you guess....or did he tell you?  More importantly...are you going to tell US:mrgreen:


He PONKED him on the head!!!! :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Seriously though, I can't remember what all he talked about with Buko and the jump.....so I better let him explain.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Eric, I know how you feel buddy. By the time I got the jump, the place hadn't been worked in months, and months.

I tried the tug thing, he just crashed through with his back legs instead of his front legs. If I stood in front of the jump with the tug, I got hit in the face with flying PVC.

I went to Texas with Charley Barthalamew, and Ann has a very solid jump. He sorta tried to jump it, and it actually hurt him. He went right over after that. The PVC didn't phase him a bit. 

When I first tried to use a tug as a reward, he saw it, turned his head, and crashed sideways into the jump, and landed on his back. He then popped up and tried to grab the tug, and bit me in the chest. I gave him a PONK and a good kick for biting me. Little bastard.

I had him sorta jumping the PVC before we went to Texas. He had a lot of repetitions crashing, and getting nothing. When he did do it right, he was told place, and got a reward for being right. He just didn't care. Every dog is way different, and trainers do different things.

Look at Chris Smiths answer. Pressure. So he thinks that the e-collar was used to get the dog to go from place to place. This is not bad training, just absolutely not necessary to get the dog to go fast. The holes in the drywall proved that he was not slow. : )

This is why I like to use the solid hurdle, and let them crash a bit. Just a bit, and no place markers. This is how I taught the jump when I was a kid. The dogs have good drive, but nothing like idiot Buko.

It is good to use your head and just because something doesn't seem to be working perfectly, doesn't mean you switch training methods. 

You definately don't "force jump" a dog. I have never heard of that, but I am sure that David did in one of his lives.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: For the jumps-that-are-painful or forced-jump crowd, if you I'm also guessing you start out with uber-low jumps that they can't NOT make. What is the difference in the dog's mind between a jump that bothers them or is painful to whack into, vs. a PVC jump that they are inclined to jump right because you are either going to make them jump over again until they get it right? Why wouldn't either version work, since they are getting some form of correction and you're making them do it until they get it right? It seems like it would just be a matter of the correction coming from you (either a "no" or clicker-click or whatever, and maybe a simple pop on the leash if they decide they aren't going to jump) or from the equipment (e.g. just the natural consequence of a hard [or electric?] jump being painful or just annoying to have whack their knees/feet/whatever making them jump higher and tuck the feet).
> 
> The problem with the jumps that I have had is the dog just decides to crash into it. Maybe this is from him being older, as I didn't have problems as bad as I do now when he first figured out what it was that I wanted him to do.
> 
> Like the broad jump. Didn't have a problem until two weeks before Nationals. Then he decided to jump to one side. No idea what was going on in his head.
> 
> I can tell you that I taught him to jump close to get that arc for the hurdle. I had never taught the jump that way. He is an interesting dog, and has been from the start.
> 
> I taught the place command first, and when he had that real well, going through the uprights perfectly, I put a single bar about 10 inches high, and told him to place. This is what I was told the progression should be.
> 
> He ran through the jump, sent the bar flying into the wall, and laid down on his marker. I didn't reward him, and figured he just didn't see it.
> 
> I put three bars on there, still about ten inches high. He crashed through them, I told him no, and he turned around and went back to his place at the beginning.
> 
> Then I put a piece of plywood in front of the jumps, and tried again, he smashed it with his front feet, sent everything flying and was at his place before it had stopped falling.
> 
> He also found this quite amusing. Unfortunately, so did I.
> 
> So, what does this tell us about this dog ?
> 
> He jumped park benches, walls, fallen trees, and all sorts of stuff when we were not training and I asked him to. I did this separate from the place command.
> 
> All dogs are not the same, so go ahead and try and figure out how I got him to jump. At that point, he had everyone stumped. This will be a good exercise for those of you that want to learn.


Ill give it a stab...

Im thinking either its a medical issue for him with some painfull muscless or paws or something to that effect since he was fine jumping the broadjump untill 2 weeks before the nationals..

Also something could have gone seriously wrong in the last time before the 2 weeks...did he hurt himself ? did something scare him that makes him resent the broadjump...

or he could simply could be taking the piss out of you which i think is your best bet then again i dont know the dog and its ussual behaviour...

I am curious tho at how you got it to jump....i know what i would have done at this point but again the difference in sport comes up....im thinking you are using a softer version of persuasion then i would use...then again i could be wrong!


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## Alice Bezemer

FFS....heres me trying to figure it out and you go and post the answer while im posting....urgh! ;-)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He has a bad shoulder, but it never bothered him before. I do not jump him that much, he is a bit of a maniac, and there is no need........... or so I was thinking.

However, there is the always present "go **** yourself" with this dog as well.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He has a bad shoulder, but it never bothered him before. I do not jump him that much, he is a bit of a maniac, and there is no need........... or so I was thinking.
> 
> However, there is the always present "go **** yourself" with this dog as well.


so he will take this piss which does present a problem upto some point....since you will not know for sure if its just the shoulder acting up or he is just sitting there a fkin it up to taunt you... but im thinking since you know the dog you will also know when hes taking you for a long walk of a short cliff ;-)


----------



## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: That the dog was so pressured and anxious to get to his place marker that he couldn't see straight and crashed the jump?
> 
> I can see how you would think that. Not really the answer to the question now is it. Everyone is a dog trainer. LOL



You can take your own advise and, "Get rid of that shitter and get a dog that can do the work". Or you could decrease the stress your dog has about the jumps.

Look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWKmnTKNDfg


Notice that right before your dog jumps, the first two times, he licks his nose and lips? This is classic stress behavior and the dog fails to make the wall. Now notice on his last attempt the dog does not lick his lips and he makes it over the wall. Maybe if you reduce the stress about the jumps, the dog will jump in a more consistent manner.



​


----------



## Alice Bezemer

> Notice that right before your dog jumps, the first two times, he licks his nose and lips? This is classic stress behavior and the dog fails to make the wall. Now notice on his last attempt the dog does not lick his lips and he makes it over the wall. Maybe if you reduce the stress about the jumps, the dog will jump in a more consistent manner.
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Now i know this is not my dog but i have to say your line of thinking doesnt make sence to me...if you are saying the dog has stress and thats why he failed the first 2 jumps then why didnt fail the 3rd ? stress only adds up in these situations and doesnt tone down when the dog knows its doing something wrong...so i would expect to see a large stressbuildup here instead of a decrease for the 3rd jump....i will say this tho...the dog did not seem overly exited to me to make the actualy jump to start with


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Alice Bezemer said:


> Now i know this is not my dog but i have to say your line of thinking doesnt make sence to me...if you are saying the dog has stress and thats why he failed the first 2 jumps then why didnt fail the 3rd ? stress only adds up in these situations and doesnt tone down when the dog knows its doing something wrong...so i would expect to see a large stressbuildup here instead of a decrease for the 3rd jump....i will say this tho...the dog did not seem overly exited to me to make the actualy jump to start with


HI Alice,

Chris has an interesting observation and theory. I noticed on the first two tries that Buko looks at the people off to the left before he licks his lips? Is it stress or distraction or something else? Obviously Buko is capable of climbing the palisade, since he does it on the 3rd try and obviously something is wrong when he doesn't do it on the 1st try? I agree he doesn't seem to be "overly excited" which seems problematic for a dog with has much drive as Jeff says he has?


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Alice,
> 
> Chris has an interesting observation and theory. I noticed on the first two tries that Buko looks at the people off to the left before he licks his lips? Is it stress or distraction or something else? Obviously Buko is capable of climbing the palisade, since he does it on the 3rd try and obviously something is wrong when he doesn't do it on the 1st try? I agree he doesn't seem to be "overly excited" which seems problematic for a dog with has much drive as Jeff says he has?



like i said before i dont know the dog...i noticed he got kind of distracted by the audience but not to much in my eyes...has this dog done much work in front of larger crowds in the past or is this a recent thing that he is still getting used to ? im also wondering if you had worked on this particular terrain before or if its new for the dog ? a zillion things can be of influence...and im not convinced its stress at this point...

my 0.6 cents ;-)


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Now i know this is not my dog but i have to say your line of thinking doesnt make sence to me...if you are saying the dog has stress and thats why he failed the first 2 jumps then why didnt fail the 3rd ? stress only adds up in these situations and doesnt tone down when the dog knows its doing something wrong...so i would expect to see a large stressbuildup here instead of a decrease for the 3rd jump....i will say this tho...the dog did not seem overly exited to me to make the actualy jump to start with.

Chris thinks he is a dog trainer. LOL The pallisade was way too slick, and not built with rough cut boards. Many of the dogs that day had some problems. Buko has a tendency to look for the decoy at this point. He has fallen off before taking advantage of the height to look around, and boom, off he goes.

He also wants to point out to you that this dog is a shitter. That is the main reason he posts on this board. LOL However, he looks at Buko's hold and bark, and knowing I spent NO time on it, is insanely jealous. He works the bark and hold non stop with his dog, and has to use the prong to get him to show any sign of some sort of aggression. I will spare you the video, it is just too embarrassing to watch. : )


Quote: I agree he doesn't seem to be "overly excited" which seems problematic for a dog with has much drive as Jeff says he has?

Thomas, I never really want to get into this with you, but you cannot read a dog to save your life. Where did I say he was overly excited ? Perhaps you did not read where I was talking about when I first was teaching the jump. How long ago was that ?

Maybe you are getting old and forgetful.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Michael Ellis didn't have a problem with the same jump at the same trial.

@7:55

http://leerburg.com/playem.htm?name=flv/4-5-10-mike.flv


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I agree he doesn't seem to be "overly excited" which seems problematic for a dog with has much drive as Jeff says he has?
> 
> Thomas, I never really want to get into this with you, but you cannot read a dog to save your life. Where did I say he was overly excited ? Perhaps you did not read where I was talking about when I first was teaching the jump. How long ago was that ?
> 
> Maybe you are getting old and forgetful.


Jeff,

I agreed with Alice statement that Buko didn't seem overly excited. You've said
on numerous occasions how much drive he has. I've taking part in a discussion on this list. I know better then to try to give you advise. You know everything about dogs and dog sports and I don't even know "how to read a dog to save my life" 
So how come I've gotten multiple titles on multiple dogs in multiple sports and you haven't?
Oh yeah cause you don't do gay Schutzhund or PPD or PSA or ..................

Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) BH CGC


----------



## David Ruby

Chris Michalek said:


> Michael Ellis didn't have a problem with the same jump at the same trial.


Yeah, I hear that guy's pretty good.

Hey wait, did _Michael Ellis_ actually do the jump? I didn't know he was that good!

-Cheers


----------



## Chris Michalek

David Ruby said:


> Yeah, I hear that guy's pretty good.
> 
> Hey wait, did _Michael Ellis_ actually do the jump? I didn't know he was that good!
> 
> -Cheers



Lisa Geller didn't have trouble with same jump either

@11:00

http://clubmondio.info/nationals/

I didn't watch all of the vids to see who's dogs had issues with the jumps but they are all there.

Jeff scored 240 at that trial, that's better than I did so who am I to say anything about his work. My lifelessr little dog probably wouldn't get 6" from the pallisade before he folded.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Michael Ellis didn't have a problem with the same jump at the same trial.

Jackson did, and hey guess what, I was actually there and saw the pallisade and how slick it was. Check him out at 10 minutes.

http://clubmondio.info/nationals

Quote: So how come I've gotten multiple titles on multiple dogs in multiple sports and you haven't? 

You try much harder than I do. Still doesn't change the fact that when it comes to reading a dog, you are not the one to do it.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You definately don't "force jump" a dog. I have never heard of that, but I am sure that David did in one of his lives.


I've seen a handler force jump a dog (using the e-collar) after the dog decided he wasn't going to jump when his reward wasn't present. Seemed to work, as the dog is now clearing max distance in both training and trialing.


----------



## Eric Read

I didn't watch the video, but just from past observations, I don't usually find dogs starting out stressed on an exercise, fail it, realize they aren't doing it correctly cause they have to do it again with no reward and have their stress levels come down. 

If anything I'd expect it to go up with each failed attempt.


----------



## Chris Michalek

yep, Jackson did fail, I noticed that. I also noticed Jackson and Buko are from the same litter. Both were looking around before the jump and failed.

They were probably spun.


----------



## David Ruby

Chris Michalek said:


> yep, Jackson did fail, I noticed that. I also noticed Jackson and Buko are from the same litter. Both were looking around before the jump and failed.
> 
> They were probably spun.


Maybe it's a bit of age? They aren't really super-young dogs anymore, so maybe they've just lost a bit as far as jumping a/o gotten a bit of a mental block over it and lost a bit of confidence in their ability in that regard? Just a guess as to a possibility.

The long-jump, almost looked like it might be physical/injury or like he knew he wasn't going to make it. I just thought he acted like you might whenever you're going for a rep weight lifting or something, like you're starting to Deadlift and you just feel like you you're physically straining something too much or mentally you just feel like the weight is not going up for whatever reason. If he's got a shoulder issue, it seems like that could be why he wasn't zipping along as fast and up over the palisade & long jump.

-Cheers


----------



## Christopher Smith

Eric Read said:


> If anything I'd expect it to go up with each failed attempt.


Sometimes when a dog feels a high degree of pressure on an exercise they screw up the exercise. Once they screw up and the pressure that is normally applied for screwing up dosen't come (aka No Boot Up Buko's Butt Day) the dog starts to relax a bit. The relaxed dog can then settle a bit and do the exercise. 

Also the looking around stuff that the dog does can also be caused by stress. Notice that throughout the video the only time Buko looks at Jeff is when he is told to do so? He ain't avoiding eye contact because he was dazzled by Jeff's luscious locks. =P~


----------



## David Ruby

Hey Chris,



Chris Michalek said:


> Lisa Geller didn't have trouble with same jump either
> 
> @11:00
> 
> http://clubmondio.info/nationals/


I hear Lisa's pretty good too. 

Well, so is Donna for that matter.



> I didn't watch all of the vids to see who's dogs had issues with the jumps but they are all there.
> 
> Jeff scored 240 at that trial, that's better than I did so who am I to say anything about his work. My lifelessr little dog probably wouldn't get 6" from the pallisade before he folded.


Eh, I'm more interested in watching the dogs and what I can learn personally from it. I just think it's cool to see people try and use these things to sort of evaluate what they are doing right or wrong and what they could maybe do better.

And yes, the Michael E. thing was a stupid joke. Since, you know, Michael and Lisa and all didn't personally do the jumps so much as their dogs did. Awful, huh?

-Cheers


----------



## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Chris thinks he is a dog trainer. LOL The pallisade was way too slick, and not built with rough cut boards. Many of the dogs that day had some problems. Buko has a tendency to look for the decoy at this point. He has fallen off before taking advantage of the height to look around, and boom, off he goes.
> 
> He also wants to point out to you that this dog is a shitter. That is the main reason he posts on this board. LOL However, he looks at Buko's hold and bark, and knowing I spent NO time on it, is insanely jealous.


What a lame excuse...the boards were too slick.  It's never Jeff's expert training skills. I'll sop up the tears of your unfathomable sadness with my breakfast biscuit :sad:

I don't think that Buko is a shitter. In fact I think that it's a very good dog. But even good dogs have problems and Buko's problem is the lump of flesh at the other end of the leash. What I do think is that you're a hypocrite and shit on people. And not in that sexy German porn kind of a way. 



> He works the bark and hold non stop with his dog, and has to use the prong to get him to show any sign of some sort of aggression. I will spare you the video, it is just too embarrassing to watch. : )


I see you cut your luscious locks from in front of your face and can see the aggression! Good for you big boy! I'm so happy I feel like dancing! I know just the music....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CndYAemqGq0

I know ya'll loved that last video and are riding on a natural high. But now I should bring you back to earth with a little video of how Jeff teaches a jump foundation....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6qU5ZAwimo


Now I'm sad again


----------



## David Feliciano

I'm still laughing at the fact that it took Buko three mintues to find a decoy hiding in a blind. The fact that Jeff thinks Buko's bark and hold was good is icing on the cake!!!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

The fact that the three of you actually feed the dogs you have amazes me.


----------



## David Feliciano

Jeff illustrates his ****tarddery more and more each day. IN the video Jeff mentions I am working Chris' dog. The dog is young and the bark and hold is new. He wanted to bump me so Chris keep him clean with a long line and a pinch collar. The dog quits bumping quickly and Chris stops popping him on the line to keep him clean. Jeff saw this and thought the pops were to bring barking.

Jeff can't interpret what he's watching, because he's not a good enough trainer to know what he is seeing.

this is the video in question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CndYAemqGq0


----------



## David Feliciano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The fact that the three of you actually feed the dogs you have amazes me.


The three of us? Sorry we don't roll around with Captian Morgan on the regular like you. Hey you feed a dog that the entire world including Lackland washed out


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CndYAemqGq0

This is one of my all time favorite examples of why you don't waste time with shitters. I love how the boxes frighten your dog. Boxes ! ! ! 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 

Absolutely the best video out there. Provides really good examples of what not to waste time on.

Of course there are three of you, or did you already toss Mikalik to the wind ??


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Smith said:


> Sometimes when a dog feels a high degree of pressure on an exercise they screw up the exercise. Once they screw up and the pressure that is normally applied for screwing up dosen't come (aka No Boot Up Buko's Butt Day) the dog starts to relax a bit. The relaxed dog can then settle a bit and do the exercise.
> 
> Also the looking around stuff that the dog does can also be caused by stress. Notice that throughout the video the only time Buko looks at Jeff is when he is told to do so? He ain't avoiding eye contact because he was dazzled by Jeff's luscious locks. =P~


That's a stretch. So on the sit or down in motion if your dog looks around he's stressedLOL anything to prove your point I guess. Attention on the handler is not a priority in ring sport. I cam see you two conversating David : Look at the dog heeling, he's not looking at the handler. Chris: yes David my son that is due to stress. L OL


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Maybe you need to watch davids dog in his video look around. All I had to do is get through the BS comedy routine to see that. David has a ball on him and probaly 80 percent less distraction so how do you justify this Chris


----------



## Christopher Smith

Timothy Stacy said:


> Maybe you need to watch davids dog in his video look around. All I had to do is get through the BS comedy routine to see that. David has a ball on him and probaly 80 percent less distraction so how do you justify this Chris


No need justify anything. But I will explain for the simple minded, such as yourself. 

David's dog is a young and untitled. Jeff's dog is titled and old.

David's dog is not trial ready, thus the TRAINING video he posted. Jeff's dog was in a trial.

Now why don't you go and buy your hero Jeff some of those X-men Wolverine claws for Buko, so he can haul his spooked out ass over the wall....'cause it's too swippawee.


----------



## David Ruby

Christopher Smith said:


> Sometimes when a dog feels a high degree of pressure on an exercise they screw up the exercise. Once they screw up and the pressure that is normally applied for screwing up dosen't come (aka No Boot Up Buko's Butt Day) the dog starts to relax a bit. The relaxed dog can then settle a bit and do the exercise.


I could buy that.

Do you (Chris or whomever) think that's just a product of certain types of dogs & their training regiment? I ask because I'm wondering if that would work with something like the type of dog/training Alice is describing. But yeah, I could buy the dog getting calmer and gaining some composure, getting in the zone a bit, and then nailing the jump. Especially if it's something that required getting into the flow a bit. I suppose, hey, if it works you're right!

-Cheers


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I wouldn't waste time titling that dog. 

Nice of you to show us the quality of dog you prefer. Makes a lot of sense to me now. Especially the cringing dog I saw in the tracking vid. That was perfect. That is also why I find it amusing when you talk about all this "pressure" that I am putting on the dog. I am guilty of training too much, but thats about it.

To me, listening to you is like listening to the AKC ob person tell me about how to train. Good luck with your dogs, be sure to keep popping him, other wise his shitter qualities will surely pop back up.

I have your video saved to favorites, and sent it to all my friends, we have been cracking up over your choice of dogs for a while now. Sad, so sad.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

I think the Buko is smart and now trial wise due to the spectical that is MR. No matter how hard one tries to set up a field for training it's impossible unless one has a bus to haul accessories. So the dog learns the trial enviornment faster than a SCH dog would and learns there is no repurcission for disobeying at these times. Smoking mirrors hahahahaha. I think Buko is looking for more of a challenging jump in the distance! I'd like to see video of other peoples dog in a SCH trial so we can break down every second of the dogs behavior.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Smith said:


> No need justify anything. But I will explain for the simple minded, such as yourself.
> 
> David's dog is a young and untitled. Jeff's dog is titled and old.
> 
> David's dog is not trial ready, thus the TRAINING video he posted. Jeff's dog was in a


what did David do to stop this behavior. Let's be honest in Sch the only time you'd walk away from your dog in the jumps is to get the dumbbell to start. Just for you and your single brain cell. Let's see your dog trialing or are the DVDs coveted in Twinkie cream


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Let's hear about how you helper correct a dog also Chris?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Timothy Stacy said:


> Let's hear about how you helper correctIon a dog also Chris?


----------



## Alice Bezemer

I still dont see where the whole pressure thing comes in with Jeff´s dog...it simply makes no sence since the bodylanguage of the dog doesnt tell me theres stress in the trial ...i dont see the dog slinking to the ground...hes not guarded in his behaviour in other areas so why call it pressure...i cant help but feel that its the old age issue thats been mentioned before mixed in with some shoulderproblems...or hes just in a FK you mood which i have seen of my own dogs plenty....the liplicking thing ? aint proof of squat ! my dog licks his lips at every concievable moment and trust me it aint pressure or worries...hes just tryin to figure out how far he can go...

anyone ever think about the fact that even dogs have bad days ? and they can **** up a complete trial for you if the do something small wrong during the begining of a trial and discover there ar zero consequences ? ive seen dogs do a full 440 point during trainingdays and at their trial they discovered that DAMN...i missed a small object during the searchtrial and nothing happend...you can wave bubye to your points and your trial then...coze there aint SHIT you can do except stand there and watch your dog take the serious piss out of you...


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Your right Alice chris is doing his best to make Jeff look bad and it's not working. You know Chris knows what a dog is thinking by the smallest ear twitch, one of those guys.


Alice Bezemer said:


> I still dont see where the whole pressure thing comes in with Jeff´s dog...it simply makes no sence since the bodylanguage of the dog doesnt tell me theres stress in the trial ...i dont see the dog slinking to the ground...hes not guarded in his behaviour in other areas so why call it pressure...i can help but feel that its the old age issue thats been mentioned before mixed in with some shoulderproblems...or hes just in a FK you mood which i have seen of my own dogs plenty....the liplicking thing ? aint proof of squat ! my dog licks his lips at every concievable moment and trust me it aint pressure or worries...hes just tryin to figure out how far he can go...
> 
> anyone ever think about the fact that even dogs have bad days ? and they can **** up a complete trial for you if the do something small wrong during the begining of a trial and discover there ar zero consequences ? ive seen dogs do a full 440 point during trainingdays and at their trial they discovered that DAMN...i missed a small object during the searchtrial and nothing happend...you can wave bubye to your points and your trial then...coze there aint SHIT you can do except stand there and watch your dog take the serious piss out of you...


----------



## Alice Bezemer

the simple truth is i dont know anyone here well enough to talk about how they train or what they do....i can however watch the video's and see how the dogs perform and relate that back to my own experiance of what i have seen happen in my own dogs and dogs of others that ive helped in training....im judging simply on what i see on the video and nothing more or less....


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Smith said:


> No need justify anything. But I will explain for the simple minded, such as yourself.
> 
> Now why don't you go and buy your hero Jeff some of those X-men Wolverine claws for Buko, so he can haul his spooked out ass over the wall....'cause it's too swippawee.


By the way this is defense behavior due to a stimuli(my earlier post). are you stressed? LMAO


----------



## David Ruby

Alice Bezemer said:


> anyone ever think about the fact that even dogs have bad days ?


Yep. I don't know Jeff, but he got to Nationals so I'll at least give him the benefit of a doubt. Chris S. and Thomas B. and I believe David F. have titled dogs too, so I'll give them the same benefit of a doubt.

That isn't helping much, is it? But yes, I'd imagine Buko is pretty good; Jackson sure seems to be. Maybe he was just having a bad day. I'd also imagine in the hands of somebody who really knew what they were doing, there might be more than one way to fix whatever was going on. That could also be as simple as trying again later, particularly if it was just a "bad day" thing, much less an injury.

-Cheers


----------



## Mike Scheiber

I just picked up this bad boy last week www.dogsportgear.com/Schutzhund_jump.html I got a red one There will be no troubles next weekend like we had a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Alice Bezemer said:


> ..the liplicking thing ? aint proof of squat !


http://www.google.com/search?q=lip+...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


----------



## Joby Becker

removed...as to not derail this thread...


----------



## Eric Read

Christopher Smith said:


> http://www.google.com/search?q=lip+...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


and sometimes they just lick to lick. and sometimes hackles mean fear, sometimes it means excitement, sometimes lots of different signals can mean lots of different things. What's your point? 

You want to see a stressed dog, so you see it. I didn't see much in that video to tell me he was stressed. I'm sure there may be a few brief moments where someone could say "yeah, see that, that's stress", one could probably do that in any video of any dog doing anything, but the overall picture is not, not by a long shot.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Smith said:


> http://www.google.com/search?q=lip+...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


lol, you believe anything google searches tell you, in which any yahoo could post! LMAO. This is where u get your info from hahaha


----------



## Carol Boche

Alice Bezemer said:


> I still dont see where the whole pressure thing comes in with Jeff´s dog...it simply makes no sence since the bodylanguage of the dog doesnt tell me theres stress in the trial ...i dont see the dog slinking to the ground...hes not guarded in his behaviour in other areas so why call it pressure...i cant help but feel that its the old age issue thats been mentioned before mixed in with some shoulderproblems...or hes just in a FK you mood which i have seen of my own dogs plenty....the liplicking thing ? aint proof of squat ! my dog licks his lips at every concievable moment and trust me it aint pressure or worries...hes just tryin to figure out how far he can go...
> 
> anyone ever think about the fact that even dogs have bad days ? and they can **** up a complete trial for you if the do something small wrong during the begining of a trial and discover there ar zero consequences ? ive seen dogs do a full 440 point during trainingdays and at their trial they discovered that DAMN...i missed a small object during the searchtrial and nothing happend...you can wave bubye to your points and your trial then...coze there aint SHIT you can do except stand there and watch your dog take the serious piss out of you...


Alice....I love you!!! LOL, just kidding, but your posts are great!!!

My older Mal bitch licks her lips when I get her out of the car to go search cadaver, do obedience, bitework, and just to play. What does this mean? That she's a stress case??? NOT...it means she knows she gets to play tug at some point, or bite, or get food.....Pavlovian Lick...look it up. 

When she stresses, she scratches at her neck.....and gets a really odd look to her....then, I back off a bit, do something fun and she goes right back to her usual wacko Mali self and we do the exercise again.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Eric Read said:


> and sometimes they just lick to lick. and sometimes hackles mean fear, sometimes it means excitement, sometimes lots of different signals can mean lots of different things.


Yes they can mean lots of things. But the licking is not random. Why would the dog do it at that time and place each time?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

For the same reason you eat brekfast every moring at the same time same place. Chance to rest and look around as the handler walks away. Look at the panting throughout the bitewirk this could also be stress related, not just heat](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,) dont forget to watch the eyes Chris, as those are gateways to the soul, give it up or post your videos of your trials


----------



## Christopher Smith

Carol Boche said:


> .Pavlovian Lick...look it up.


Wait a minute...I might not have to look this one up.

You mean like the dog gets brought to a spot. Every time he he goes to that spot a scary drunk kicks his ass. After several years of this when the dog is brought to the spot he he shows nervous behaviors in anticipation of the ass kicking.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Timothy Stacy said:


> For the same reason you eat brekfast every moring at the same time same place. Chance to rest and look around as the handler walks away. Look at the panting throughout the bitewirk this could also be stress related, not just heat](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,) dont forget to watch the eyes Chris, as those are gateways to the soul, give it up or post your videos of your trials


So your saying that the licking is conditioned? 

Tim my dog is only 20 months old, so he's not titled. But the fact that you thought he was let's me know how great my dog is looking. ;-)

But since we all like videos so much let's see your dogs on video. I won't ask you for a trial video since from the foolish and ignorant way you talk I know you have never titled a dog in your life.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Smith said:


> http://www.google.com/search?q=lip+...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a



Well hotdamn !!! someone knows how to use google !

now everytime you get yourself a new dog do you try to google that as well and let it come up with answers for you or do you actualy use common sence by looking at the dog and trying to discover why it might do something in reaction to something else....and if it might actualy mean squat!

the last time i checked google and internet didnt do a damn thing to help me train my dog chris...like the good ole saying goes (and my avatar) Believing bullshit will not make it come true, no matter how much you want it to..what you are doing here is grabbing at obvious answers...and if theres one thing i learned is that when it comes to training dog...there aint a goddamn thing obvious about it...instead of taking the so called experts that you will find with google seriously try dealing with the dog instead...thats a completely different can of worms all together....URGH !!! god forbid you actualy follow those internetguru guidelines....you wouldnt get a damn training session started or finished simply coze the dog licked its lips a few times.....

trying thinking OUTSIDE the box....


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Mike Scheiber said:


> I just picked up this bad boy last week www.dogsportgear.com/Schutzhund_jump.html I got a red one There will be no troubles next weekend like we had a couple of weeks ago.



Nice looking dogjump ! I have to ask tho...$199 is a lot of money...why wouldnt you consider making something like that yourself ? from the looks of it its easy enough to copy...not being sarcastic or anything  was just thinking that its a lot of money and it might be a challenge to make one yourself ;-) anything i need i just make myself or have a friend make it for me...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: trying thinking OUTSIDE the box....

Ask him about defense training. I love his answers.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Carol Boche said:


> Alice....I love you!!! LOL, just kidding, but your posts are great!!!
> 
> My older Mal bitch licks her lips when I get her out of the car to go search cadaver, do obedience, bitework, and just to play. What does this mean? That she's a stress case??? NOT...it means she knows she gets to play tug at some point, or bite, or get food.....Pavlovian Lick...look it up.
> 
> When she stresses, she scratches at her neck.....and gets a really odd look to her....then, I back off a bit, do something fun and she goes right back to her usual wacko Mali self and we do the exercise again.


LOL...thank you Carol ;-) i spose on a good day i have my lovable side


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes they can mean lots of things. But the licking is not random. Why would the dog do it at that time and place each time?



I shudder in fear of what you would think if you would see a woman lick her lips a few times ...im pretty sure i can think up what you would come up with as an answer :razz: being a male and since internet told me all men think alike im pretty sure im RIGHT coze the internet would tell me so ;-)


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Alice Bezemer said:


> I shudder in fear of what you would think if you would see a woman lick her lips a few times ...im pretty sure i can think up what you would come up with as an answer :razz: being a male and since internet told me all men think alike im pretty sure im RIGHT coze the internet would tell me so ;-)


Hahahaha! Now that is funny as heck I needed a good laugh!


----------



## Jim Nash

Alice Bezemer said:


> I shudder in fear of what you would think if you would see a woman lick her lips a few times ...im pretty sure i can think up what you would come up with as an answer :razz: being a male and since internet told me all men think alike im pretty sure im RIGHT coze the internet would tell me so ;-)



Probably a bad example to use sence in this case the internet would be right .


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Jim Nash said:


> Probably a bad example to use sence in this case the internet would be right .



well atleast the internet would be right for once :mrgreen: 

;-)


----------



## David Feliciano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I wouldn't waste time titling that dog.
> 
> Nice of you to show us the quality of dog you prefer.
> 
> I have your video saved to favorites, and sent it to all my friends, we have been cracking up over your choice of dogs for a while now. Sad, so sad.


I'd take a dog out of Virgo (Chris's dog's sire) over a Buko puppy site unseen anyday of the week. 

I feel your pain though Jeff. Having wasted your time titling Buko, a dog that even lackland rejected, must be tough. I can't say I blame you buying an already titled dog.

Now run along and play with your pretitled show line GSD. You and your friends can discuss pedigrees while laughing at Chris' training videos


----------



## Carol Boche

Christopher Smith said:


> Wait a minute...I might not have to look this one up.
> 
> You mean like the dog gets brought to a spot. Every time he he goes to that spot a scary drunk kicks his ass. After several years of this when the dog is brought to the spot he he shows nervous behaviors in anticipation of the ass kicking.


:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

Still a lot of growing up to do on this board.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Smith said:


> Wait a minute...I might not have to look this one up.
> 
> You mean like the dog gets brought to a spot. Every time he he goes to that spot a scary drunk kicks his ass. After several years of this when the dog is brought to the spot he he shows nervous behaviors in anticipation of the ass kicking.



Speaking out of experiance ? WAIT...i know...your the drunk ! hope they bring you a Furby to kick tho coze if they brought you an actual dog to deliver an asskicking to you would never get to the asskicking part...you would be to busy scowering the internet on how to actualy deliver a good asskicking and besides that, a Furby will be much safer for you coze i aint seen a dog yet that will take a yearslong asskicking and not retaliate at some point.....in my minds eye i can actualy picture you using google planet to pick the spot where this fenomenal asskicking will take place seing as you are so fond of getting all your info of there to start with....

am i sounding sarcastic yet ? 


(psssst a small hint....act like a smartass and you could expect to get treated like one ;-) )


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Carol Boche said:


> :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
> 
> Still a lot of growing up to do on this board.


nah carol...you dont see the opportunity here do you ;-) posts like that give you to opportunity to relieve some stress...and you dont even have to lick your lips to show the stress ! have fun with it ;-) its not like some posts are actualy contributing something meaningfull to the topic so why shouldnt we take advantage and do some destressing of our own ;-)

;-)


----------



## Carol Boche

Alice Bezemer said:


> nah carol...you dont see the opportunity here do you ;-) posts like that give you to opportunity to relieve some stress...and you dont even have to lick your lips to show the stress ! have fun with it ;-) its not like some posts are actualy contributing something meaningfull to the topic so why shouldnt we take advantage and do some destressing of our own ;-)
> 
> ;-)


I do see plenty of opportunity......and I am glad you are taking care of it for me....LMAO:lol::lol::lol:

The "I know all about everyone else's dogs" mentality is getting SO old.....I can read dogs, yes, but I would never come onto a board and start telling people what is going on with their dogs. 
There is a lot more to it that watching a two minute video.....but, if they want to internet quarterback.....:roll::roll:](*,)](*,):mrgreen:


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Smith said:


> So your saying that the licking is conditioned?
> 
> Tim my dog is only 20 months old, so he's not titled. But the fact that you thought he was let's me know how great my dog is looking. ;-)
> 
> But since we all like videos so much let's see your dogs on video. I won't ask you for a trial video since from the foolish and ignorant way you talk I know you have never titled a dog in your life.


WTF are you talking about? Let's see videos from the past, you have titled dogs right? Come on find a paper towel or a dirty rag off the greasy oven and knock the roaches off so you can clean the Twinkie cream off those old DVDs


----------



## Thomas Barriano

I'm glad everyone has had fun with their google comments etc.
Does anyone have their own theories about why Buko missed the first two tries at the Slippery palisade and made the third? Does anyone care to comment on why he was llcking his lips (and looking at the people to his left) on the missed attempts and not the successful one.
I thought the benefit of posting videos was, to have a dialogue of different ideas? Nobody said you have to agree with the ideas, but if
you're so fearful and defensive that all you can do is resort to personal
attacks and clever one liners. Then why waste your time?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Timothy Stacy said:


> WTF are you talking about? Let's see videos from the past, you have titled dogs right? Come on find a paper towel or a dirty rag off the greasy oven and knock the roaches off so you can clean the Twinkie cream off those old DVDs



Chris, post a picture of that guy that broke into your house. ;-)


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## Timothy Stacy

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'm glad everyone has had fun with their google comments etc.
> Does anyone have their own theories about why Buko missed the first two tries at the Slippery palisade and made the third? Does anyone care to comment on why he was llcking his lips (and looking at the people to his left) on the missed attempts and not the successful one.
> I thought the benefit of posting videos was, to have a dialogue of different ideas? Nobody said you have to agree with the ideas, but if
> you're so fearful and defensive that all you can do is resort to personal
> attacks and clever one liners. Then why waste your time?


I think Chris started with the personal attacks!


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## Chris Michalek

Buko was acting like he HAD to do it rather than want to do it and to me, that's a training issue.

Slippery boards is a silly excuse. What about the broad jump, was that too shinny?

This is Mondio, we're talking about where the point is to put the dog in silly situation to see how they work.

Buko didn't want to work and that's a training issue. 


How's Buko's B&H on a person wearing no equipment? Will he still bite a man that's not in a suit or wearing a sleeve? I guarantee you my little lifeless dog will bite the shit out of you and he doesn't care if you're in a bite suit or birthday suit. That's a dog. 




Thomas Barriano said:


> I'm glad everyone has had fun with their google comments etc.
> Does anyone have their own theories about why Buko missed the first two tries at the Slippery palisade and made the third? Does anyone care to comment on why he was llcking his lips (and looking at the people to his left) on the missed attempts and not the successful one.
> I thought the benefit of posting videos was, to have a dialogue of different ideas? Nobody said you have to agree with the ideas, but if
> you're so fearful and defensive that all you can do is resort to personal
> attacks and clever one liners. Then why waste your time?


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## Timothy Stacy

Alright Chris you are sloppy at everything. Shows in your tracking. Until you show your dog heeling for 100 paces without a ball, and 3 left turns, you are sloppy. Your dog is the age my dog got it's BH so let's see your perfect obedience cause I'm tired of hearing about it.


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## Chris Michalek

what I really want to see if for Jeff to come out and simply talk about his methods to get the dog to jump without touching.

If he doesn't then he either doesn't have a method or he's trolling again. 

Let's hear it Jeff.

Personally, I train the jumps with a PVC jump that is about a foot high, I create the behavior and then work on height and if they touch the jump crumbles and I say UH UH. It's works well.


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## Chris Michalek

Timothy Stacy said:


> Alright Chris you are sloppy at everything. Shows in your tracking. Until you show your dog heeling for 100 paces without a ball, and 3 left turns, you are sloppy. Your dog is the age my dog got it's BH so let's see your perfect obedience cause I'm tired of hearing about it.



I'll trial him at the end of Sept. 

OK Fred, if you want to play this game.

Your OB vs mine. $1000 put your money where your mouth is or


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## Timothy Stacy

Please post the vid of the trial so we can apart every ear twitch and everytime the dog looks away


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## Chris Michalek

Timothy Stacy said:


> Please post the vid of the trial so we can apart every ear twitch and everytime the dog looks away



$1000 Tim. put your money where your mouth is. 

Either you don't have faith in your training or you don't have a $1000 to put on the line either option is pathetic.


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## Timothy Stacy

You were a beat off when you made that comment to Fred and I guess you still are. Talk about this perfect training a bit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbXz-R-b8Es


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## Chris Michalek

Timothy Stacy said:


> You were a beat off when you made that comment to Fred and I guess you still are. Talk about this perfect training a bit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbXz-R-b8Es



So you don't have $1000 to put up and you don't have faith in your dog or abilities, I get it. Hard to get ahead in life and have time to train with you work for AT&T isn't it? That's one step above a gas station job, now I see why you defend Jeff. Neither one have done anything with your lives.... as Jeff says "You're a follower. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH" 

Don't worry, he is a follower but at least Jeff is a gov't trained follower, he doesn't know any better anymore SIR YES SIR but you? You've made a choice to follow an internet dog trainer that you haven't met. 

You can say that about me and Chris S but at least I met him in person and could see with my own eyes the results he produces.

I feel sorry for your financial situation, so $500, your OB vs Mine.


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## Timothy Stacy

The video Chris? Is this perfect training? Playing the harmonica is like being the kicker on a football team. Just really aren't a part of the band LMAO in today's economy AT&t is working out fine  how is your retirement plan going lol.


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## Christopher Jones

Chris Michalek said:


> So you don't have $1000 to put up and you don't have faith in your dog or abilities, I get it. Hard to get ahead in life and have time to train with you work for AT&T isn't it? That's one step above a gas station job, now I see why you defend Jeff. Neither one have done anything with your lives.... as Jeff says "You're a follower. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH"
> 
> Don't worry, he is a follower but at least Jeff is a gov't trained follower, he doesn't know any better anymore SIR YES SIR but you? You've made a choice to follow an internet dog trainer that you haven't met.
> 
> You can say that about me and Chris S but at least I met him in person and could see with my own eyes the results he produces.
> 
> I feel sorry for your financial situation, so $500, your OB vs Mine.


Dude, you really shouldnt pick fights for your dog on the internet, thats pretty dumb.
Obviously any video Jeff puts up David and Chris S are gonna look to discredit, and visa versa with their videos. But some of the crap that has been put up as signs of stress or weakness are just stupid. Instead of making the dog or owner look inept, its actually making the person who made the comment look inept.
To me does Buko looked stressed? No. Does he look like he wasnt trial ready? Yep. For whatever reason that is, so be it. If Buko was stressed and was worried about some hard arse punishment from Jeff, he wouldnt have gone back to Jeff with the confident. couldnt give a shit, attitude that he did.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Does he look like he wasnt trial ready? Yep. For whatever reason that is, so be it. If Buko was stressed and was worried about some hard arse punishment from Jeff, he wouldnt have gone back to Jeff with the confident. couldnt give a shit, attitude that he did.

My dog loves me, what can I say ? LOL

Thomas, he was sure that the decoy was in the tree line. It was off to the left.

Trial ready ? LOL I am never sure what the dog is going to do. He sure looked good in training. He doesn't care about getting smacked in the head, so I really don't do that all that often. The first jump, he hit the wall about 3 foot off the ground maybe, and when he tried to get purchase on the wall, his right back foot just slipped right out from under him.

He coulda slipped off that wall 20 more times and he would have kept trying.

The lip licking shit is KILLING me. I haven't laughed that hard in some time. I guess reading a dog correctly is a lost art.

Today is Buko's birthday, he is 7. He says you all need to shut the **** up and put the suit on for him. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Nz9B1XFio


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## Christopher Jones

Sorry, miss quoted myself........


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## Doug Zaga

Happy Birthday Buko!


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## Christopher Jones

Hopefully this doesnt stop people putting videos up of their dogs, I like to know that Im not the only one that has a dog that decides to do what he wants every once and a while. But I actually like a dog that pushes me.


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## Tim Bartlett

David Feliciano said:


> I feel your pain though Jeff. Having wasted your time titling Buko, a dog that even lackland rejected, must be tough. I can't say I blame you buying an already titled dog.



This line is incorrect. Buko has never been shown to Lackland. I know that because I would have been the one that evaluated him. I have been working here longer than Buko has been alive.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Fellatio knows everything Tim, didn't you know that ? He knows what YOU know better than you do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Poor Mikalik. Maybe you should stop paying attention to the naughty boys that get you in trouble. 

Buko was Stuart Hilliards dog. Ask your know it all buddy what that means.


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## Chris Michalek

Let's get back on topic.

Jeff, you're a very knowledgeable dude and obviously have a different way of looking at things.

I, like many, want to hear about your methods to teach a dog to jump. I'm not going to bash it, I just want your perspective on how you train it since you believe so strongly in it. All I really give a shit about is my dog and if you or anybody have a better method then I will employ it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I, like many, don't really give a shit what you want to hear. Go play in traffic.

Today is Buko's birthday.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I, like many, don't really give a shit what you want to hear. Go play in traffic.
> 
> Today is Buko's birthday.


oohhhh booo hooo the yeti dog trainer doesn't give a shit about me. 

so you don't have a method that works and are a trolling like normal.

Thanks for clarifying that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Buko also says that he cannot believe you are wasting dog food feeding that shitter. He laughs at your dog. He says your dog is a little pussy, and you run your mouth about shit you know nothing about.

Go and backstab someone else, buddy****er.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Buko also says that he cannot believe you are wasting dog food feeding that shitter. He laughs at your dog. He says your dog is a little pussy, and you run your mouth about shit you know nothing about.
> 
> Go and backstab someone else, buddy****er.



AHHHH this is the problem with your dog, he's the leader and you're the follower. 

"Buko jump." 

"**** you Jeff"

"Buko please jump"

"**** you Jeff"

"Sir yes sir"

Buko jumps.

AHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Maybe you should watch this Jeff, his dog jumped the first time and didn't complain about the slippery boards.

http://leerburg.com/ellislecture.htm

If you have to make excuse for the environment in a mondio trial then go back to frisbee.


Watch this one too.

http://leerburg.com/playem.htm?name=flv/11-2-09-schh.flv


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The problem with your dog is he is a cull. How much did you pay for that cull ?

I don't need to bother showing a video, you are clueless. Go ask your buddies Chris and David how to teach the jump. Then you can discuss lip licking to your hearts content.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The problem with your dog is he is a cull. How much did you pay for that cull ?
> 
> I don't need to bother showing a video, you are clueless. Go ask your buddies Chris and David how to teach the jump. Then you can discuss lip licking to your hearts content.



That little lifeless cull will bite the shit out of you whether or not you're wearing equipment. He's not like Buttko who needs a man in a suit to say "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GIMME A BITE. PLEASE PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME DANCE LIKE AN IDIOT PLEASE LET ME BITE YOUR SUIT"

Let's see a bark and hold on Carol not wearing a suit or standing in a blind. Bet it doesn't happen.



AHHHH HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHAHA


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No it won't. Just like when your house was robbed, the dog will be clueless.

You can't read a dog for shit either.

Quote: Let's see a bark and hold on Carol not wearing a suit or standing in a blind

Oooooo, that'll show you. After all, your dog is REAL. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

How much was your cull again ?

Today is Buko's birthday. According to you, he is worthless, and he is going to get his MR3. Where are you at ??

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

At least when I show up at a trial, I don't have to worry if my dog is the weakest dog in the trial, however you should worry. There might be big scary rocks to keep your REAL dog from the helper.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Today is Buko's birthday. He is 7, and could give a shit.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No it won't. Just like when your house was robbed, the dog will be clueless.





the mal was 7mo old when that happened your dog is 7yrs old and is still clueless.

Anytime you want to put your hand to my dog when I've activated him, you're welcome to try.


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## Doug Zaga

Hey you two ARE You Wasting Too Much Bandwidth!!! The dogma has abandoned you...

Why don't we settle this once and all like two warriors instead of two "kitties." Sunday my club you two show up. Chris use that grand you offered to fly to Mass. I have an awesome new HD handicam to video the outcome and post. Jeff if you can't afford it I will fly you in. Logan airport I will pick you two up...

Hmmm ....what's the line?

Now back to Jumping techniques


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> The lip licking shit is KILLING me. I haven't laughed that hard in some time. I guess reading a dog correctly is a lost art.



Jeff,

I don't understand why you'd be laughing? Lip licking is one of the signs of stress.
Turid Rugas is a well known and respected animal trainer. Is lip licking always a sign of stress? Of course not, but it IS something to be aware of, when trying to figure out why a dog does what he does. You criticized me for not being able to read a dog. So what was the problem with Buko? He "loves you"
but he fuks you every chance he gets? Doesn't sound like "love" to me.
What is your training plan to avoid Buko refusing the A-frame at the next trial?


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## Timothy Stacy

Thomas, are dobes more prone to lip licking? Just wondering since they usually are thin nerved and would seem to get stressed fast. Do you train around that behavior or confront the lip licking head on when your working on something else?


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## David Feliciano

ttttttttt

top


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## Thomas Barriano

Timothy Stacy said:


> Thomas, are dobes more prone to lip licking? Just wondering since they usually are thin nerved and would seem to get stressed fast. Do you train around that behavior or confront the lip licking head on when your working on something else?



Tim,

Flan doesn't lip lick but he is very sensitive to the handler. Now we're working on getting him to be a little more actively aggressive. He bites pretty good if he's warmed up but if you send him for a cold bite short courage test he will come off the sleeve a lot of the time. With me it's all about the dog and not
the sport. I'll work around a problem rather then washing out the dog and getting another.
I get to go train them now. We had Mr Rooter out to hydro blast out a blockage in the middle of the cul de sac. If this didn't work we were looking at
a multi $ job of digging up the asphalt and pipe...........IT worked 
Later


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## Matt Grosch

Im kinda disappointed that at least one duel hasnt been offered and accepted by this point....


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## Timothy Stacy

So if he is sensitive there must be a behavior that shows this sensitivity, what is it? Tail tuck, pinned back ear, eyes roll back in the skull, blown anal, pissing, yawning?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Anytime you want to put your hand to my dog when I've activated him, you're welcome to try.

"activated" ?? LOL Whatever. Do you really expect me to care about you and your pathetic cur that much ?? Does your ego really need that ??

Besides, do you really think that I cannot kick the shit out of a cur ?

Quote: I don't understand why you'd be laughing? Lip licking is one of the signs of stress.
Turid Rugas is a well known and respected animal trainer. Is lip licking always a sign of stress? Of course not, but it IS something to be aware of, when trying to figure out why a dog does what he does. You criticized me for not being able to read a dog. So what was the problem with Buko? He "loves you"
but he fuks you every chance he gets? Doesn't sound like "love" to me.
What is your training plan to avoid Buko refusing the A-frame at the next trial?

So the dog was refusing the palliasade ? I don't remember that. He will jump full height next time. Even if he doesn't, I am not going to have a fit and go punching blinds and throwing a fit.

I am told that Flan is a shitter. Does he lick his lips a lot ?


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Anytime you want to put your hand to my dog when I've activated him, you're welcome to try.
> 
> "activated" ?? LOL Whatever. Do you really expect me to care about you and your pathetic cur that much ?? Does your ego really need that ??
> 
> Besides, do you really think that I cannot kick the shit out of a cur ?


activated... yep, he's mind controlled like you, it's part of his military training regime. 

obviously you do care if you keep pointing it out. Thanks!

And no YOU couldn't kick the shit out of a dog, you move a like a wooden plank.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What ever makes your busted ego feel better. How much did that cur cost again ??

Today is Buko's birthday.


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## Carol Boche

Chris Michalek said:


> Let's see a bark and hold on Carol not wearing a suit or standing in a blind. Bet it doesn't happen.


I have said this before and will say it again....LEAVE ME THE F**K OUT OF YOUR CONFLICT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What happened to the "You're right, I am not doing it anymore?" stuff????


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## Chris Michalek

Carol Boche said:


> I have said this before and will say it again....LEAVE ME THE F**K OUT OF YOUR CONFLICT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> What happened to the "You're right, I am not doing it anymore?" stuff????



it was in a public vid and you were the star of it. That's all I made a reference to.


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## Alice Bezemer

Carol Boche said:


> I have said this before and will say it again....LEAVE ME THE F**K OUT OF YOUR CONFLICT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> What happened to the "You're right, I am not doing it anymore?" stuff????


Im guessing its a male thing...a "you know what" measuring contest....maybe they should just whip it out and measure the bleeding things already...that would surely save some time ;-)


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Today is Buko's birthday.


 keep repeating that.... another sign of your brainwashing.


Learn to think for yourself Jeff, you can do it. Buko and I have faith in you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ditch the cur mikalik. Think about the children man, no way to go out.

Today is Buko's birthday.

I can do this all day. Shame you ****ed up a thread just cause **** got on the phone and made you do it.

Anyway the wind blows, right chris ??


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## Carol Boche

Chris Michalek said:


> it was in a public vid and you were the star of it. That's all I made a reference to.


Funny thing, excuses are. This has been going on for a lot longer than that video has been up, this isn't the thread about the video itself, it is David Feliciano's thread about the hurdle. 

Leave me out of it!!!! PERIOD! 

I don't jump in all over your guys' threads anymore.....it is over for me. Unless someone gets WAY out of line and tries to involve me or start shit.


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## maggie fraser

Ahh, good to see you guys didn't cur out to the virus, maybe we can get a wee bit memento going again ? Thanks.


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## Thomas Barriano

Timothy Stacy said:


> So if he is sensitive there must be a behavior that shows this sensitivity, what is it? Tail tuck, pinned back ear, eyes roll back in the skull, blown anal, pissing, yawning?



He'll shut down and refuse to do anything (sometimes just platz) or he'll want to take the tug or sleeve back to the van.
We've had less of him deciding when training is over, after I started dragging him back to the field with FUSS pop, pop pop reward. I got a lot more attention that way. I notice a little yawning when he is starting to get stressed.


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## Mike Scheiber

Alice Bezemer said:


> Nice looking dogjump ! I have to ask tho...$199 is a lot of money...why wouldnt you consider making something like that yourself ? from the looks of it its easy enough to copy...not being sarcastic or anything  was just thinking that its a lot of money and it might be a challenge to make one yourself ;-) anything i need i just make myself or have a friend make it for me...


Yes your rite I could have made one I made our club blinds and wood wall and jump. 
I needed one now and I didn't have time to or the recorceses to make one like this at short notice I have several people that will take it off my hands when I'm don with it


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## Alice Bezemer

Mike Scheiber said:


> Yes your rite I could have made one I made our club blinds and wood wall and jump.
> I needed one now and I didn't have time to or the recorceses to make one like this at short notice I have several people that will take it off my hands when I'm don with it


thats cool then...i always hate spending money ! cant imagen anyone else wouldnt think the same


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## Timothy Stacy

Thomas Barriano said:


> He'll shut down and refuse to do anything (sometimes just platz) or he'll want to take the tug or sleeve back to the van.
> We've had less of him deciding when training is over, after I started dragging him back to the field with FUSS pop, pop pop reward. I got a lot more attention that way. I notice a little yawning when he is starting to get stressed.


So sometimes you cause stress to get things accomplished right? Would ears pinned back also indicate stress? How about barking at the handler before he's allowed to jump?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Timothy Stacy said:


> So sometimes you cause stress to get things accomplished right? Would ears pinned back also indicate stress? How about barking at the handler before he's allowed to jump?


Tim,
Maybe it's semantics, but I don't cause the stress, he does 
First I make sure he knows the exercise. If I say here or platz and he still goes to the van then there are consequences and he has to do what he was told. I prefer natural eared Dobermanns so it's hard to tell when the ears are pinned back 
"Would ears pinned back indicate stress?" NO, ears pinned back COULD indicate stress. It's true of all the calming signals or classical signs we all look for. You can't say, this dog is hackled, it's afraid, this dog is licking his lips he's stressed. You have to look at the gestalt of the dog 
Some dogs are just vocal or have too much energy that it spills out.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Yeah I agree with your last sentance. When you go to a club trial do you have confidence your dog will come in first place or do you know it's not a possibility? Could your dog make it to nationals, not sure of his age?


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## Thomas Barriano

Timothy Stacy said:


> Yeah I agree with your last sentance. When you go to a club trial do you have confidence your dog will come in first place or do you know it's not a possibility? Could your dog make it to nationals, not sure of his age?


Flannchadh the Dobermann, just turned two in June. At this point my goal is to get his SchH I regardless of score. I think he is willing to please and at some point he "may" mature enough AND get enough of an aggressive/serious edge to do well. Dobermann males are notorious slow to develop, but a first place at a club trial is a possibility sometime. There isn't much competition at either
Dobermann Nationals (UDC or DPCA) so I could see him doing well at a "Nationals" if all the stars aligned


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## Bob Scott

Thanks to those that have at least tried to keep this on topic!
Thread closed!


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## Connie Sutherland

Also:

People who refer to other posters by sex terms have been warned by PM.

It's just going to be deleted posts now.

Thank you.


----------

