# Zero - the new addition to the family



## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*New Aquisition!*
_Let me 1st say that I both have the space and time (time, after all, is relative, que no?) for *Zero*..._

A good friend of mine has had what she's been calling a AKC "King 
Shepherd" for 2.5 years, since he was a pup. They bought him from a 
breeder. I'm the 1st to admit I have no idea what a "king" shephered is 
supposed to be, so I'll be Googling it.

Anyway, long story short, they no longer have the time for him (they've 
just had a new baby), so I adopted Zero!

*1)* He's over 100 lbs, and 25" at the shoulders. He's very looooong. 
He, however, does NOT have the sloping back like the typical Am. showline
GSD. His ears are NOT elephant ears as well... 

*2)* He's had NO OB/training of any sort. He is the typical non-trained dog:

Jumps up on people
Begs for food
Jumps on couch/bed
Charges through doors 1st
Pulls (and I mean PULLS!) you on walks

I've had him for 1 week now. And there has been DRASTIC changes in his 
behavior. For example, just one 15 minute session w/a choke collar (I'm 
saving up for a GOOD STRONG prong) has him walking next to me in a 
perfect *fuss*!

My intention was not to train the heel yet, just good manners on a leash, 
but he is SO DARN SMART, he figured right away that he gets praise from 
me only at that location. I'm not poping the lease to correct, just only as I 
change direction in my walk: 

Walking straight, all is fine. He get's, "YESSS, good
fuss"
Suddenly I turn left, pop the collar twice, and he's
right there, eyes on me, walking at my hips.

He's already bonding w/me (my wife has seen a big difference), which I 
believe is the reason why he's picking up so quick - he's willing to please. 
I'm trying, in every situation, to establish myself as the pack leader to 
him; ie: not allowed on couch, not allowed on bed, I go through doors 1st,
etc...

The dog introdutions went very smoothly. My Black Lab, Border Collie, and
sable GSD are all non-dog agressive, and so is Zero. He actually ignores 
them unless they are doing a "puppy dance" in his face. 

His nerves are strong. I walk him to the local park, which is deserted in the
AM, and take him up onto the "jungle gym" - sway bridge, etc. He does 
NOT hesitate at all!

I'm so exited that all the training techniques/theologies I've been learning 
(and still...) on Ed Frawley's Leerburg site, and Mike Schoonbrood's Working Dog Forum 
are getting me QUICK, QUICK, QUICK results!

BTW, my friend has lost his "papers" in a move. How would I go about 
obtaining copies? And can you tell by AKC papers the pedigree of the dog?
I am totally assuming Am. Showlines, but can anyone "see" anything in his
stance/face/posture that would suggest German/working lines (see #1 above)?










































_And one more thing: all dogs are going to be "fixed" ASAP._

I'm off to the park w/him now - and taking my camera too!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

A "king shepherd" is nothing more than a German shepherd that is much bigger than it's supposed to be. According to the "breed standard," _the King Shepherd's origin comes from several different breeds. Although there are some differences in opinion regarding the exact breed make-up, it is generally believed that the King's breed make-up includes German Shepherds of American lines, crossed with Malamutes and/or a Flock Guardian breed (i.e Great Pyrenees), which were then bred back to German Shepherds of European descent._ The king shepherd is not recognized by any registry but its own (AKSC - American King Shepherd Club), but if this particular dog does not have any outcrosses in its lineage, then it may have AKC papers. I'm not sure how you would go about getting them, though.

Some links: 
http://americankingshepherdclub.com/
http://www.kingshepherd.com/
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/kingshepherd.htm
http://www.arba.org/KingShepherd1BS.htm
http://www.thepetprofessor.com/breed_profiles/dogs/king_shepherd.aspx


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> A "king shepherd" is nothing more than a German shepherd that is much bigger than it's supposed to be ...but if this particular dog does not have any outcrosses in its lineage, then it may have AKC papers.


Thanks Kristen,
Zero *is* AKC registered, so I'm not sure HOW the lineage worked???
I'm going to get my friend to dig up all her info she can, including the breeder
name. She's knows the papers are "in a box" in her house somewhere - I 
know that feeling!!!

She called him a King Shepherd, but she's admittidly not too dog savvy, all 
she knows is that she _wanted a GSD, told her husband to buy one, and they found a 
breeder_. 

I've been looking at pix of King Shepherds, and Zero is by far the BEST 
looking dog compared to them. He's smaller than the King breed standard
as well. So, according to their standard, he's disqualified:



> SIZE
> 
> The minimum height for males is 27 inches, at the highest point of the shoulder blade, with an ideal height of 29 inches or more preferred. For females the minimum height is 25 inches, at the aforementioned point, with an ideal height of 27 inches or more preferred. Any male or female not meeting the minimum height requirements must be disqualified.
> 
> ...


Re-measuring his shoulders, he is actually 24 1/2 inches. 

Anyway, I have great OB plans for him! I'll let y'all know what I find. THIS
IS GETTING INTERESTING!!!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

She may be calling him a King then because he is so much bigger than the GSD standard calls for. Who knows. If you can get ahold of the breeder, you should be able to find out his litter number and get his AKC papers that way I would think.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

As far as I know a "King" shepherd is not considered a GSD even though they do have alot of GSD in them.Your dog does not look like any pic of a King Shepherd that I have seen.Maybe they meant "king sized"??


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2006)

Ok, don't quote me on this, but during my puppy searches of long ago, this guy's website kept coming up; they were just huge GSDs, which he called "King Shepherds." Way back when, they were just GSDs that someone continually bred the biggest until they were 125lbs. I think, if I remember correctly, that he just *calls* them King Shepherds as his own marketing thing...

This dog doesn't look like anything to me except a GSD. Although he doesn't look particularly fat, I don't see how he weighs that much at that height. He must really be looooong. I'll see if I can find this moron's website and post it. Some really ridiculous, almost amusing pics. 

Martin, congrats on the acquisition! At least in the learning dept. he sounds GSD, so who cares what he is!  Nice looking face, too.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

:-#


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*Selena van Leeuwen Said*:


> :-#


?

It's ok Selena, I won't get offended... Say what you want to say!

*Jenni Williams Said*:


> Ok, don't quote me on this, but during my puppy searches of long ago, this guy's website kept coming up; they were just huge GSDs, which he called "King Shepherds." Way back when, they were just GSDs that someone continually bred the biggest until they were 125lbs. I think, if I remember correctly, that he just *calls* them King Shepherds as his own marketing thing...
> 
> This dog doesn't look like anything to me except a GSD. Although he doesn't look particularly fat, I don't see how he weighs that much at that height. He must really be looooong. I'll see if I can find this moron's website and post it. Some really ridiculous, almost amusing pics.
> 
> Martin, congrats on the acquisition! At least in the learning dept. he sounds GSD, so who cares what he is!  Nice looking face, too.


Ok, again w/the generalities on MY part, I'm taking my friends word on Zero's
weight. She SAID, "he's 100 lbs!!!" - so I'm just assuming she had an accurate
weight :| She could of said, "he seems like 100 lbs"!  

Once I find my tape measure (I'm having a brain fart!!!), I'll measure his
length. 

Here are some fresh pix from today. Since I've really only seen pix of 
GSD on the internet, can some of you dog people take a good look, and 
see if you can tell the real GSD from a King Shepherd:


































*Jenni Williams Said*:


> Martin, congrats on the acquisition! At least in the learning dept. he sounds GSD, so who cares what he is! Nice looking face, too.


BTW, I do NOT want to give the impression that I'm becoming disapointed
w/Zero, just because of the term, "king" - I'm very exited to have him and
greatly appreciative of my friend who parted w/him. She left my house the
day she and her husband dropped Zero off w/tears in her eyes


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I would get a little of that untucked belly off him, I think. How old is he? It would be good if he had a waistline before his joints protest from the load.

This is not criticism. I know he is new to you. It's just helpful thoughts, I hope. 

Seen a lot of joint problems! Weight management is a good thing.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*Connie Sutherland Said*:


> I would get a little of that untucked belly off him, I think. How old is he? It would be good if he had a waistline before his joints protest from the load.
> 
> This is not criticism. I know he is new to you. It's just helpful thoughts, I hope.
> 
> Seen a lot of joint problems! Weight management is a good thing.


I totally agree. He's gonna be on RAW within the next few month. Before I
got him, my friend would have food available all day, w/no exercise for him, 
and table scraps after their dinner  

He's 2 1/2 years old (3 years in Feb '07). Should I go slow w/the exercize,
or start off jogging and stuff w/him emmediately?


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2006)

Yeah, what she said.  

Not a criticism at all, Martin. I'll be curious to hear how tall he really is. Really it was just a curiousity thing. My moose is around 28" at the shoulder...and 95lbs. Of course it all depends on how we measure.  Again, congrats and good luck with him. Already sounds like he's doing better. I'm calling him a German Shepherd, for the record. :wink:

If he's that big, I'd still go easy on the hardcore running for a little while, or at least work him up to it. Caleb's xrays showed at 28mos that he was still growing.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*Jenni Williams Said*:


> Yeah, what she said.
> 
> Not a criticism at all, Martin. I'll be curious to hear how tall he really is. Really it was just a curiousity thing. My moose is around 28" at the shoulder...and 95lbs. Of course it all depends on how we measure.  Again, congrats and good luck with him. Already sounds like he's doing better... :wink:


Once my wife get's home from the Bay Area, I'll have HER measure, that's
if she can find the tape measure I've lost. She has a fabric one that should be
used anyway :lol: 
*Jenni Williams Said*:


Jenni Williams said:


> I'm calling him a German Shepherd, for the record. :wink:


Maybe I'll start a poll :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't think we need a poll......... he sure looks like a GSD to me!

http://www.kingshepherd.com/MainPage.asp


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2006)

Gee, thanks for the link, Connie. :roll: What is the MATTER with people??? 

Instead of a poll, Martin, let's do a real experiment. Let's give our dogs steroids and see if they look any more like King Shepherds....(whatever the hell those are anyway...)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Gee, thanks for the link, Connie. :roll: What is the MATTER with people??? .......


That's what I thought.........


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

They're kinda ugly - the suedo-shepherds, not the people in the pictures!


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Hey Jenni, Zero can be a King, look:










Wow, those *steriods* sure do kick in quick!!!



:wink:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I had heard of Shiloh shepherds, but not king shepherds. I fostered a big GSD/Great Pyrenees mix a while back that looks a bit like those king shepherds if they supposedly have some Great Pyr in them. Over 100 lbs at 11 months old and had the Great Pyr's double dew claws as well. He was a pretty neat dog, actually. This was Simba:


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## Debbie High (Jul 2, 2006)

Martin, Best of luck with Zero. Have fun, that is the most important thing! I agree that keeping him on the thin side would be best for him.

Debbie


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> This was Simba:


He is a cool-looking dog! 8)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, he was just a big sweet fluffy goof. He got adopted very quickly fortunately. Good thing or I would have been tempted.  :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, he was just a big sweet fluffy goof. He got adopted very quickly fortunately. Good thing or I would have been tempted.  :lol:


Yeah, me too. He looks not so much like a mix as like a GSD wearing a pullover head mask. Neck down: GSD. Neck up: Other.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2006)

Martin, great photoshop job. :lol: 

Simba is cuuute! I hardly ever say that...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martin Espericueta said:


> *Selena van Leeuwen Said*:
> 
> 
> > :-#
> ...


You´ve/had troubles with your own young dog, have to save up for a prong...wtf do you need another dog for?

It is a cutie and nevertheless I hope you have fun times with him, but i really don´t get you decision in the first, second and third time I think about it.

Sorry I know I sound Greg-ish :roll:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2006)

"Greg-ish"??? :?: :?: Did I miss something? :? 

How many of us NEEDed another dog....  :lol: ? I know I spend the majority of my income on animals, and I swear I'm gonna go broke, yet somehow I manage to feed them all. :wink: Selena, I know what you mean, but I didn't take Martin as literally as you did, like "saving up for a prong collar." I took it as kind of a joke about the money we spend on these dogs. :| Ok, now I'm confused... :| :?


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Hello,
Selena, I've broken down your post into 3 segments. Hope you don't mind!
*Selena van Leeuwen Said:*:


> *1)* You´ve/had troubles with your own young dog, *2)* have to save up for a prong...*3)* wtf do you need another dog for?
> 
> It is a cutie and nevertheless I hope you have fun times with him, but i really don´t get you decision in the first, second and third time I think about it.


*1)* The troubles w/my 9 month old were not due to training techniques of mine.
It happened during a coarse of a few weeks (from what I gather) - during
times when my sons were picking up poop unsupervised. Now, my sons are
old enough to know better than to harrass my dog - but my 15 year old does
what he can get away with when he's alone. Now, if you have teens, or have
been a teen yourself :wink: - you know what THATS like!

I'm a newbie to dog training, yes. But as far as MY conduct w/my dogs in
relation to 1) Pack Leadership, and 2) Firm but Fair training w/them, I have
to say that (Yes, God wants me to be humble, but I'm gonna boast JUST
a tad here  ) my new love for dogs and training them (not to
mention the bonding that comes w/this style of training, which I NEVER
knew existed or could exist between man and Man's best friend) SchH style &
Agility/OB., etc. - Selena - you couln't find ANOTHER PERSON w/the determination
and heart to learn all he can about Your dog world. I'd make the perfect
student, trainee, disciple!

*2)*Saving up for a prong... Let me re-state that. I want this:


> *Stainless Steel QUICK RELEASE Prong Collars*
> Product # 783-3
> 
> LARGE
> ...


Spending that much, while my local pet store has one for $10 - one that I
can bend w/my fingers - that's gonna take some smoozing up to my wife
for :roll: - so I tell her (and here on this forum...), "I'm saving up for that
Leerburg prong". All the while my choke collar has done the job sufficiently.

*3)*Two reasons for wanting this dog. 1st one was deciding factor, 
which is that my friend was going to give away the dog to anyone. 
Whether it seems like it or not - I am a BIT more dog savy b/c of these
forums and my many hours of research than most of the prospects that
would have taken a BIG GSD.

*Jenni Williams Said*:


> How many of us NEEDed another dog....


All we need is love  Seriously, Jenni's comment is true.
Yes, one dog is enough for ANYONE. *But*, we tell ourselves things we like 
to hear, things like, "Because of my expertise in Canine Behavioral 
Management, I am one of the *few *privledged personalities that CAN 
juggle a multiple Canine Household". 8) I'm not bashing anyone w/this
explanation, I just want to make a point :wink: 

*Jenni Williams Said*:


> Ok, now I'm confused... :| :?


Did I clear up any confusion?


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Actually ,its probably a good thing that you got this dog.It could have ended up in a much worse situation.

Although a prong does make things easier and I do use them on a daily basis,they are just a tool which makes communication more clear and precise.There is more than one way to skin a cat.. :wink:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

yes I´ve been a teen (cant have kids myself), and if I had ever tried to do that, my father would have broken all my limps :twisted: and had to stay home till I was grey :wink: 
With other words it would never come in my mind...being brought up in between dogs :wink: and a very strict father.

What i was trying to say if you need all your time for your young dog, to get her right, why take another dog with a lot of work?

A good stainless prong cost here about 15 euro´s (=$18 orso) :wink: 45 dollar is stealing


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Wow, they cost much more here. At least, that's my experience.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S. I had similar fear of the consequences of not obeying my parents...... alone or not. :!:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> P.S. I had similar fear of the consequences of not obeying my parents...... alone or not. :!:


and your about my fathers age :wink:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

The prong collars I've gotten at Superpetz (I have a small and a medium) have both been excellent quality, and NOT easy to bend the links on at ALL. I have a rough time trying to take them off and on because the links are very stiff. They were only about $10.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. I had similar fear of the consequences of not obeying my parents...... alone or not. :!:
> ...


Man, I should never have posted the coincidence of my birth year and the birth year of Greg's rusted antique truck! :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2006)

Martin, I was more confused that I missed something pertinent to the situation b/c of what Selena said. I'm fine now.  

I got my HS quick release for a little less than half of that in some hillbilly store in OK. Maybe you could call around? FWIW, I have never used the quick release mechanism, and find it unnecessary...

I had a really hard time opening the generic prongs, and besides that, they have pointy, rough edges. I have no problem opening the HS collar. I wouldn't pay $45. JMO.

Back to the topic...congrats on your much-needed new family member. :lol:


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Kristen, you sound like my wife - a bargan shopper! That's one thing I'm in 
the learning stages of  

My wife told me that she thought they were around $15 at Petco, or was it
PetZone? Anyway, since drooling at the products on the Leerburg site, and 
being able to bend the prong I've checked out at the Mom-&-Pop pet store
here in town, I've been *fixated *   with that Prong on the other
site  

Connie, you are only as old as you feel! I feel pretty darn old sometimes :roll: 

*Selena van Leeuwen Said*:


> What i was trying to say if you need all your time for your young dog, to get her right, why take another dog with a lot of work?


I'm NOT just saying this to make my situation sound better than it is - but 
Zero is TONS better already! His middle name should be "Willing To Please"!
No pulling AT ALL on walks. please re-read my previous post on his progress. 
Perfect heeling (for me anyway - I've never been trained myself on how to
train competition heeling), no longer jumping on couch or bed or kitchen 
table    

He's becoming much more Independant - and at the same time - becoming
velcro-dog to me. *Following me* on jumps up onto unfamiliar places like the 
bed of my 4x4, park jungle-gym, doing "sitz" while a certain dog is crazy-barking
at us through a backyard fence. 

And Sable, my 9 mo. bitch - she no longer pees / cowers! Again, I want to
tell all of you THANKS!!!! for all the great advice given re: Sable and her
issues.

I'm going to blog my experiences w/my newbie training/dog ownership soon


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*Jenni Williams Said*:


> I got my HS quick release for a little less than half of that in some hillbilly store in OK. Maybe you could call around?


I'm such a dork! I've gotten really Killer Deals for my wife on the internet
when she wanted a 6MP Konica Minolta DiMage Z6 - just for under $200!

And when my daughter got it in her to buy an electric guitar w/amp, and I
searched the 'Net - and found a Killer deal too! BTW, she never got it, just a
fad :roll: 

So I'll be looking for a quality prong as well. BTW, make sure the sites you 
find that Killer deal is registered w/the BBB!


*Jenni Williams Said*:


> Back to the topic...congrats on your much-needed new family member. :lol:


Thanks for the encouragement. Someone once said:


> "If you're not offering solutions to the problems YOU see, then you
> become part of that problem."


I'm so glad this forum is filled w/problem SOLVERS :wink: :wink: :wink:


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm so glad this forum is filled w/problem SOLVERS :wink: :wink: :wink:



And TROUBLE makers... :lol: 

Congrats on your new canine!


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## Michele Moore (Mar 27, 2006)

As far as prong collars go, this place is located by me and sells Herm Springer products at a great price. In fact, they sell a lot of dog supplies at a great price. Shipping is usually fair. The one you were looking at is $16 and some change from Ryans Pets, Martin.  

http://www.ryanspet.com/ryanspet/productList.asp?categoryCode=275&startItemCnt=1
http://www.ryanspet.com/ryanspet/productList.asp?categoryCode=274&startItemCnt=1


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Kristen, you sound like my wife - a bargan shopper!


Yep, that's me! But let me also say that the (more expensive) prong collars at PetsMart I wouldn't touch. For one, they are quick release and I've never been able to use those :lol: , not to mention I've heard stories about how the quick release snaps have come apart and the collar comes flying off the dog at inopportune moments.  The collar I got at Superpetz, while not a HS, has blunt, rounded prongs, a large D-ring to attach the leash clip to, and stiff prongs that are not going to come apart from each other out of the blue. It also doesn't show any signs of corrosion or rust from being worn in the pool/creek/lake/etc. It hasn't been in the ocean, but I learned a couple of years ago that it's best to take any metal collar off if the dog's going in the ocean because even stainless will rust if exposed to salt water. :? 


If your heart is set on a HS, though, I'd check out that site that Michelle just posted.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Hi Martin, here is a link for prongs and other training stuff http://www.k9toolbox.com/sprenger/index.html I have ordered from them before and they ship very fast and are very professional. Congrats on your new dog, BTW.


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