# tracking is too exciting



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

OK. We are talking Sch/ FST here. Dog is too excited to track and takes a while to settle in. My next move (tomorrow) is directly left/ right off the pad, food on the pad, no food for the beginning of the first leg (maybe that is my mistake?), make it more difficult and make him work for those first steps.

Any other ideas? We are tracking on a prong right now no food at the corners or start and food at the pad and scattered randomly. Granted we are just getting back to tracking, but it was always this way until he settled. Last track I layed, I did 2 corners pretty fast, the first one he totally missed, as in my opinion, he is too excited and not REALLY tracking. Second one was better but also easier as we hit the nice clover as opposed to the harder grass (florida grass).

anyone come up with some great ideas for this yet? .... i know this has to be a common problem.

t


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Is it the tracking that is to exciting, or the reward he's getting while tracking?

I've done the following at various times to help a dog settle into tracking:

Feed them before we track
Play some, or a lot of, ball
Run a short 'warm up' track
Tracked different times during the day
Done obedience before the track
Made them do a down/stay near the start of the track until I see them physically/mentally settle, then we just ease into the start
used lots of articles, and made them wait at the articles until I saw them settle


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

how often do you track


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

What food are you using on the track?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

well excitement was for all the free food initially but now the connection is made..... so both :-D

I always feed before a track, I have used the ob and the ball and that really helps to "get us" to the track in a calm manner, I have also had him calm in a down/ sit before I give the command.... but then he just "bursts" to the scent pad.... honestly I think that only builds him more, Ive used corrections (maybe not strong enough, thinking maybe taking some of the "fun" out would do him good? go to the ecollar?) but I really only want to do that as a last resort, different times the last time was late morning super duper hot and humid. So now Im thinking he needs to work from the start... which is what led me to thinking going immediate l/ r off the pad with no food.

I dont think we will fail because of it, my last dog was also a "shooter" off the pad and articles...and lets face it in Sch its always straight off of both lol..... so its not a HUGE issue... would just like to get a better picture and to feel more confident that he is taking it seriously from start to finish.

t


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> how often do you track


We are just getting back into it and I HATE tracking so right now 1/2 a week.... I DO think tracking more WILL help, but when we were on a roll last winter it helped but not as much as I would like, I would like to take it a step further....

t


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Shane Woodlief said:


> What food are you using on the track?


I forget what it is called, its a log/ roll sausage looking thing with little smell....cut into pea size.... I like the food esp in fl as it is good with the ant issue....so i would hate to change it and I dont think its a particular food issue, its a dog loves food, any food issue.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

What type of food kibble, chicken, hot dogs? And like Mike asked how many times do you track a week?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

If the main problem is him shooting off at the start, but then he settles in, I'd just start putting articles close to the start. Or don't lay your tracks always going straight off the pad, start them at an angle, or throw some angles in after a few steps, etc. IE make things less predictable so he has to focus and not just race off.



> I have also had him calm in a down/ sit before I give the command.... but then he just "bursts" to the scent pad.... honestly I think that only builds him more


It sounds to me more like you are getting him to the pad in a controlled manner, not a calm manner. I'd bring him up, down him, and just wait. Wait until all his body language says "I'm really relaxed, kind of bored" Not "I'm laying here quietly, but totally focused on you and just waiting for the command". Then when you do have him start tracking, just ease into it. A very calm, quiet, "suk"

Another option is to just work your starts. Instead of laying one long track, lay 10 really short ones. And just work the start over and over, since that's the problem area.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> I forget what it is called, its a log/ roll sausage looking thing with little smell....cut into pea size.... I like the food esp in fl as it is good with the ant issue....so i would hate to change it and I dont think its a particular food issue, its a dog loves food, any food issue.


The reason that I ask on of my past GSDs that I had, when tracking he was so stoked for the chicken that I was using on the track. I switched over to kibble and it helped some. The sent from the meat very strong so he was flying down the track. Who could blame him it was chicken!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Shane Woodlief said:


> The reason that I ask on of my past GSDs that I had, when tracking he was so stoked for the chicken that I was using on the track. I switched over to kibble and it helped some. The sent from the meat very strong so he was flying down the track. Who could blame him it was chicken!


Type of food would have been my first though if I thought it was an issue, but these dogs will eat till they puke and then eat the puke :-\" literally plus this is pretty low smelling stuff.

t


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

> If the main problem is him shooting off at the start, but then he settles in, I'd just start putting articles close to the start. Or don't lay your tracks always going straight off the pad, start them at an angle, or throw some angles in after a few steps, etc. IE make things less predictable so he has to focus and not just race off.


yup that is my thought too.... but I would love to know how to get him from 10 paces out to the pad without a race..... maybe feed the trail to the pad?? take the flag away? come up crooked?




> It sounds to me more like you are getting him to the pad in a controlled manner, not a calm manner. I'd bring him up, down him, and just wait. Wait until all his body language says "I'm really relaxed, kind of bored" Not "I'm laying here quietly, but totally focused on you and just waiting for the command". Then when you do have him start tracking, just ease into it. A very calm, quiet, "suk"


Yes probably controlled not calm, I dont know if I have the patience to wait till he is "bored"... good lord that could take a while... however you gave me a good idea... maybe bring him up, take him away, and do that several times? IDK... that may just work the getting there and not really the shoot off.... 



> Another option is to just work your starts. Instead of laying one long track, lay 10 really short ones. And just work the start over and over, since that's the problem area.


not sure how that would work... 

Thanks guys for the suggestions, I really appreciate them.... time to get busy tracking again and thought I would catch this one before its ingrained....

t


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

im gonna mess with some of this this weekend.... give ya feedback on what i see..

t


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Not sure how you started your foundation, but I can not reccomend the Joanne Fleming DVD's on tracking enough. This woman is a fricken genius when it comes to tracking. I have not worked with another trainer that was more methodical and careful than she is.

I have a female Doberman that was originally trained to air scent and I was have ZERO luck getting her to slow down enough to do FST for Sch...can you imagine the look on the Sch judges face when the newb and her DOBERMAN show up to do a TR1 and I am basically running behind my dog, she is over shooting articles, and blowing past corners? I think he was speachless lol It was a glorious disaster!!!

Anyways, I worked with Joanne last August, and again this February and Flair got her Sch1 last fall and her Sch2 this spring with very respectable tracking scores....I used Joanne's methods exclusively to retrain Flair and the difference in this dogs tracking is astonishing. 

Seriously money well spent if you can train with Joanne, but her vids would be a close second


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

im wondering...

how far away is your first tracking object ? and does he skip it insistently or is he just that overeager to track that he misses it since hes to quick...

now i dont do any tracking in the way you do but id be simple about it...id put objects..be it food or whatever they are...really short from the beginpoint from where you start to track and id hold the lead no further away then the back of his body...so no more then 2 feet and even less if needed and id keep pulling him back in untill he gets the picture of what im asking...he needs to understand the start of the trackingline is just as important as the rest...Give him some commands like NO, KNOCK IT OF or whatever you use to show your displeasure at him for failing to stick to the start of the trackingline...hell slap him on the ass if you have to...whatever you normally use as a way to grab his attention and stuff his face to the starting line and begin again....

dont know if it works for you but its always done the job for me...and ive had me some overeager dogs LOL


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Tamara Champagne said:


> Not sure how you started your foundation, but I can not reccomend the Joanne Fleming DVD's on tracking enough. This woman is a fricken genius when it comes to tracking. I have not worked with another trainer that was more methodical and careful than she is.
> 
> I have a female Doberman that was originally trained to air scent and I was have ZERO luck getting her to slow down enough to do FST for Sch...can you imagine the look on the Sch judges face when the newb and her DOBERMAN show up to do a TR1 and I am basically running behind my dog, she is over shooting articles, and blowing past corners? I think he was speachless lol It was a glorious disaster!!!
> 
> ...



I have trained w/ joanne once and DID like her alot and learned alot about my mistakes... some were really common sense issues but nonetheless, I do like her, dont have her vid though.

My last dog had the fast problem, I would run behind him but he would hit the corners and the articles... a few times we starting missing articles and Joanne pointed out that I kept using the same ones over and over with my own smell.... switching them out fixed it...

t


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> im wondering...
> 
> how far away is your first tracking object ? and does he skip it insistently or is he just that overeager to track that he misses it since hes to quick...
> 
> ...


Sorry, don't have much energy today....
=;[-X#-o


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Sorry, don't have much energy today....
> =;[-X#-o



keep in mind im looking at this from my KNPV point of view so be gentle with me Christopher.....


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

@ Alice: I know what the method is your describing ;-) but IPO/Schh tracking is thought in another way, other goal and judges who want to see every footstep in the track followed by the nose.

Little articles search KNPV style is learned by us (and I think at your club to) by backchaining, starting with holding the object.
IPO/Schh tracking is started by following the scent of the handler reinforced by (usually) food.

I transfered a mali from KNPV style searching to (starting of) IPO tracking by using the big IPO articles as the little article search in KNPV, so it can be done. But the intial style of training & goal are different.

Must say I really HATE IPO tracking 'cause I could never get it right with my first dog. Laying tracks mid winter, with mud & cow sh!t up to my ankles..Yuk. I really can appreciate when it is done right by dog & handler, but I haven't got the skills (and patience) what it takes.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

deleted message................in responce to alice....


OK just disregard this whole thing.... we are speaking different things here.... I see the previous posts now.....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> @ Alice: I know what the method is your describing ;-) but IPO/Schh tracking is thaught in another way, other goal and judges who want to see every footstep in the track followed by the nose.
> 
> Little articles search KNPV style is learned by us (and I think at your club to) by backchaining, starting with holding the object.
> IPO/Schh tracking is started by following the scent of the handler reinforced by (usually) food.
> ...


my thought is that its stapvoets ? I never thought to much about the whole progression of the tracking itself in IPO/SCHH, my thought went more to the skipping the start thing lol and i figured (maybe wrongfully) that perhaps the starting bit would be the same...to put it in dutch "er als een mongool vantussen en 1e stukje missen" could see where my thinking would be wrong tho...

as for your backchaining and holding ...YUP lol...VAST is a first here!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

stapvoets of iets sneller, but not running around the track. running itself won't cost points, but by running over the track the dog could get sloppy at the track/ in the corners and overrun the articles, esp missing an article is a big point reducer ( if I remember wel 5 or 10 points), sloppy corners (2-3 points), being next to your track instead of ON the track all will reduce points.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> stapvoets of iets sneller, but not running around the track. running itself won't cost points, but by running over the track the dog could get sloppy at the track/ in the corners and overrun the articles, esp missing an article is a big point reducer ( if I remember wel 5 or 10 points), sloppy corners (2-3 points), being next to your track instead of ON the track all will reduce points.


so basicly a lot harder then what we do...

thanks for explaining


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Alice don't know if I would call it harder but is more choreographed. Its the same thing day in day out. Dog learns if he follows the disturbed ground the reward will always be there. Its actually very much easier actually to a man track or retrieving a shell case or detection work in a heavily distrubed area or where its never in the same area. theres no concrete, buildings or water involved, its usaully always a tall grass in SCH.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Alice don't know if I would call it harder but is more choreographed. Its the same thing day in day out. Dog learns if he follows the disturbed ground the reward will always be there. Its actually very much easier actually to a man track or retrieving a shell case or detection work in a heavily distrubed area or where its never in the same area. theres no concrete, buildings or water involved, its usaully always a tall grass in SCH.


Maybe i formulated what i ment wrong...i think it might be harder in the sense that the dogs that we/I mostly train with tend to be overeager to start with which makes the whole going slow thing a lot harder to apply....thanks for explaining it to me tho harry


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Maybe i formulated what i ment wrong...i think it might be harder in the sense that the dogs that we/I mostly train with tend to be overeager to start with which makes the whole going slow thing a lot harder to apply....thanks for explaining it to me tho harry


Alice what makes you believe that our dogs are not as eager as yours when they first start tracking training? Please answer this. I would really love to know.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Alice don't know if I would call it harder but is more choreographed. Its the same thing day in day out. Dog learns if he follows the disturbed ground the reward will always be there. Its actually very much easier actually to a man track or retrieving a shell case or detection work in a heavily distrubed area or where its never in the same area. theres no concrete, buildings or water involved, its usaully always a tall grass in SCH.


Wow that's some interesting stuff. Do you have any other fairy tales for us today?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Alice don't know if I would call it harder but is more choreographed. Its the same thing day in day out. Dog learns if he follows the disturbed ground the reward will always be there. Its actually very much easier actually to a man track or retrieving a shell case or detection work in a heavily distrubed area or where its never in the same area. theres no concrete, buildings or water involved, its usaully always a tall grass in SCH.





Alice Bezemer said:


> Maybe i formulated what i ment wrong...i think it might be harder in the sense that the dogs that we/I mostly train with tend to be overeager to start with which makes the whole going slow thing a lot harder to apply....thanks for explaining it to me tho harry


Alice this is my dogs last trial a couple of weeks ago www.youtube.com/watch?v=slTDAtZujQY You start with 100 points and for each time the dog head checks, lifts his head in the slightest, changes speed at all or any troubles at all at the corners you lose points. The picture you want to see is the dog on rails after the second corner my dog was perfect. This particular judge like to stay close to and eyeball the dog pressure of sorts/ distract 
Harry my dog was a natural tracker till I used force on him and that was only for discipline to the track what you see is what he is. I only used food when he was a young to create habit now I might use 10 pieces of liver the size of my thumb nail on a 500 yo 700 pace track but I do pay him plenty at the articles.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Alice what makes you believe that our dogs are not as eager as yours when they first start tracking training? Please answer this. I would really love to know.


Christopher what actualy makes you believe i said that your dogs are not as eager as ours when they first start tracking training? please answer me this. I would really like to know. 

My actual words were: 

Originally Posted by *Alice Bezemer*  
Maybe i formulated what i ment wrong...i think it might be harder in the sense that the dogs that we/I mostly train with tend to be overeager to start with which makes the whole going slow thing a lot harder to apply...

see ! nothing in there saying your dogs aint eager! 

I might not know all about all the sports involved on this forum Christopher but trust me i aint stupid and atleast im willing to learn about them and trying to understand what goes into the training involved.

If you are going to look for something to bust my balls with hun, try doing it properly


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Alice this is my dogs last trial a couple of weeks ago www.youtube.com/watch?v=slTDAtZujQY You start with 100 points and for each time the dog head checks, lifts his head in the slightest, changes speed at all or any troubles at all at the corners you lose points. The picture you want to see is the dog on rails after the second corner my dog was perfect. This particular judge like to stay close to and eyeball the dog pressure of sorts/ distract
> Harry my dog was a natural tracker till I used force on him and that was only for discipline to the track what you see is what he is. I only used food when he was a young to create habit now I might use 10 pieces of liver the size of my thumb nail on a 500 yo 700 pace track but I do pay him plenty at the articles.


Thanks for sharing this Video with me, it gives me a much better understanding whats involved and where it differs to our tracking...was very impressive to watch this...thanks again


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Alice don't know if I would call it harder but is more choreographed. Its the same thing day in day out. Dog learns if he follows the disturbed ground the reward will always be there. Its actually very much easier actually to a man track or retrieving a shell case or detection work in a heavily distrubed area or where its never in the same area. theres no concrete, buildings or water involved, its usaully always a tall grass in SCH.


Jup i can appreciate the huge difference between our form and this way of tracking...our dogs are expected to work more individualy as from what i understand from the posted video i just watched the dog remains leashed. we never track leashed...only in training and after it is apparant the dog understands what its supposed to do the leash comes of and its expected to work individualy which would be harder in my estimation since as you said we put our decoy and materials in wooded areas or buildings and such and the small tracking on field is where our dogs need to search and bring to us...not show us where it is...theres indeed a world of difference....this form of tracking uses lying down and pointing (dont know the correct word) as where ours consist of either retrieval of small objects or barking when finding large objects... but both have their charm !


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Christopher what actualy makes you believe i said that your dogs are not as eager as ours when they first start tracking training? please answer me this. I would really like to know.
> 
> My actual words were:
> 
> ...


You said ".i think it might be harder in the sense that the dogs that we/I mostly train with tend to be overeager to start with which makes the whole going slow thing a lot harder to apply..." This would imply that other dogs are less eager. You also used I/we, that would imply that there are other people outside of the I/we have less eager dogs. 

Now in this latest post you say,


> "I might not know all about all the sports involved on this forum Christopher but trust me i aint stupid and atleast im willing to learn about them and trying to understand what goes into the training involved."


Wow! There is a saying here; you can't learn with your mouth open. And you came into this thread with your mouth blazing and gave some of the worst advise I have seen on this board. And that's pretty damn hard to do. To steal and paraphrase a line from one of the great WDF sages, and perhaps it's greatest thinker Mr. Dick Leeuwen,


> "Its fun to see/read everyone has an opinion about [schutzhund] and training, but do not know shit about it....:evil:"


And as to the concern of having your "balls busted" I found another quote that you should be in perfect agreement with, "stupid people need no help to show the world how stupid they are...they do a fine job themselves







". So there's zero need for me to do anything with your balls.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> You said ".i think it might be harder in the sense that the dogs that we/I mostly train with tend to be overeager to start with which makes the whole going slow thing a lot harder to apply..." This *would i*mply that other dogs are less eager. You also used I/we, that* would *imply that there are other people outside of the I/we have less eager dogs.
> 
> *Could would be a better word here....if i had thought lesser dogs i would have simply said so..*
> 
> ...


Yep a quote i made...what suprises me tho Chris ? in all the time you took to find quotes you could have much quicker just explained stuff a little instead of trying to belittle me...but thats ok....i can see you are unwilling to make an effort to educate someone who is unknowing and who made a wrong assumption but is willing to learn from their mistakes, you prefer to simply trample them down and have your fun it appears...so i will leave you with another fine thing to add to your "to quote list" 

*"Whatever tickles your pickle hun" 

*if this kind of response is what makes your day then i will say GO FOR IT BABY !  who am I to mess with your small pleasures huh :mrgreen:


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

The problem i have with Schh or IPO style tracking is the way the dog is being judged .Yes they want to see a deep tracker at all times and every time the dog raises its head points are being deducted.
If you lay a track early in the morning in tall grass and the grass is slightly wet the most scent may well be on or close to the ground.When the sun warms up the track the strongest scent may rise a little and be a the top of the grass.
I am just saying there is no way of us knowing where the dog gets the most sent,also it may be a lot easier for a dog sometimes to trail rather then track.So the rules are forcing dogs to track deep but it may actually be harder for the dog to do.
I have always admired people who can teach dogs to track the way the want to,i never really got the hang of it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Yep a quote i made...what suprises me tho Chris ? in all the time you took to find quotes you could have much quicker just explained stuff a little....




It seems to me that you didn't come on this thread asking for some help or explanation. It looks as if you came with a supercilious attitude and gave some horrible advice. Where is your question that need explaining? Did I miss it? 

If you want some help or explanation I would be more than happy to help you the best that I can. If I can't help you I will try to find someone that can. And their are dozens more on this forum that will happily do the same. But don't piss down my neck and try to convince me that it's raining.[-(


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I know of one dog recently tracking at a trial with his nose seemingly "too high from the ground" the whole length of the track, articles found, corners correct etc. and the judge, a colleague of ours, commented on the fact that the dog had tracked constantly and correctly and he didn't deduct marks for nose not permanently down on the ground. 

I think the fact that the dog gets points deducted for lifting his head is if he is otherwise searching deeply and stops for a "breather".

There are judges that can deduct and add up and there are judges that can judge the whole picture - not all too many of them around, but they're there.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

No matter what we feel about it,think about it or even what a judge had to say about it. The rules say


> The dog should take the scent at the start calmly with a *deep nose*. The dog must then proceed to track with a *deep nose*, maintaining a constant pace.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> It seems to me that you didn't come on this thread asking for some help or explanation. It looks as if you came with a supercilious attitude and gave some horrible advice. Where is your question that need explaining? Did I miss it?
> 
> If you want some help or explanation I would be more than happy to help you the best that I can. If I can't help you I will try to find someone that can. And their are dozens more on this forum that will happily do the same. But don't piss down my neck and try to convince me that it's raining.[-(



Funny how you only copy those things that seem to be usefull for you and you conviently forget everything else..maybe its the way you read things...i never intended my post to be overbearing or coming of as expert...i was simply trying to think along with the problem Chris...that you read that as a supercilisious attitude is not my problem...i have now stated over and over that i had it wrong and i was willing to learn...yet again something you completly ignore...im sorry if i offended you in some manner Chris..ill try not to do so again in future and i will totaly refrain from responding to anything at all to do with sports outside my area of knowledge!

hope that will make you happy...would you like me to fall at your knees and beg your forgiveness while im at it ?

ah **** it you know what Chris...bite me ! act like a PRICK and ill treat you like one...

now go ahead and rant all the hell much as you like....

To the original topic starter...my apologies for ruining your thread. it wsa not my intention to do so..ill make sure not to do so again in future


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Chris S, Alice said in her first post at this topic that she wasn't fimiliar with the IPO/Schh tracking, see the bold part, and continues with what she would do from her experience with the KNPV search.
It was obviously she didn't know the how and what of IPO/ Schh tracking so I explained the differences in goals and the most likely to be choosen teaching styles.

Btw: I recomend you put Alice on your ignore list if she irritates you so much.



Alice Bezemer said:


> im wondering...
> 
> how far away is your first tracking object ? and does he skip it insistently or is he just that overeager to track that he misses it since hes to quick...
> 
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> No matter what we feel about it,think about it or even what a judge had to say about it. The rules say


It couldn't have been a "high nose" but, how should such a track be judged? According to the rules he should only get points for the articles he indicated and none for the track?

I related this once before: a dog "searching" with a deep nose and an experienced judge watching it at training said "this dog isn't searching", he's just following the U-plan!


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Normal suggestions for this type of issue:

-Put articles close to the start.
-Put lots of corners in.
-Cut out rewards at the end of the track.
-Find ways to get the dog calm before tracking (Kadi's examples)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIwBoLRUZSs&feature=related


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

You guys are just too much lol.. .... geesh.... BE HAPPY everyone!!

Anyway. We went this morning. I added this step in: food in my hand after the "set up" going up to the pad and then tossed it on the pad like I do when I start a dog, only this time not to get the nose to follow the food to the ground but to keep him occupied and not bursting to the pad. We shall see where this one leads.....

The track itself was the hardest I have ever laid for him... not because of the turns but because I went from beginning windows to small pockets of food, hardly any food really. Single tracked the 90 deg turns no food at any turn/ curve nor after for at least 10 paces. Scent pad good, angle off the pad good ( I knew this would be good as he definitely always "finds" the first leg as I used to do directional off the pad all the time.... from there I did almost and immediate serpentine.... this helped slow him donw.... no food still. The straight leg a little food and then a single track 90 deg. He missed this completely, I had to actually correct him back...after we tracked I noticed a cross track going through my track I think this is why it was so ugly.... anway..... no food so he found the track not the food, got back to work, some small pockets of food, next single track 90 deg.. over ran slightly and then found it quickly again no food on or after the turn..... straight food, reward.

Overall, I think I have been babying him in our progression. I was pretty suprised how little food I used and how well he did. He slowed down a bunch so Im thinking too much food, so we are going to make him work harder now....... less food, more turns/ curves, I will go back to double tracking the 90 deg until he gets his confidence and precision up on those........ if need be we will take the reward away at the end.... but for now we are going in this direction and its time to start the articles on the track....

Thanks to all that offered up opinions....

t


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Alice, I think that is def what makes it hard, you want a dog going full throttle in ob and protection but then you want this same dog to work at idle in tracking.... def. makes for a challenge but I like the balance.

One other question..... leash under front leg or through back legs? I have tried back legs and I just dont like it, I prefer the front leg.... anyone have opinons on this? PROS/CONS to either?

t


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Folks not bashing the SCH or IPO way of a dog using its nose, to each their own. Just saying that there is a huge, huge difference in the two in the ways and forms that it is used to scenarios and applications. Had my reservations to posting on here, but did it to explain the difference to a other member that stated that she wasn't familiar with your form of training ( tracking ). So Sorry if it came out wrong but it is what it is and I felt like it was the best way in my eyes to explain it in a brief but precise answer.;-)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Funny how you only copy those things that seem to be usefull for you and you conviently forget everything else..maybe its the way you read things...i never intended my post to be overbearing or coming of as expert...i was simply trying to think along with the problem Chris...that you read that as a supercilisious attitude is not my problem...i have now stated over and over that i had it wrong and i was willing to learn...yet again something you completly ignore...im sorry if i offended you in some manner Chris..ill try not to do so again in future and i will totaly refrain from responding to anything at all to do with sports outside my area of knowledge!
> 
> hope that will make you happy...would you like me to fall at your knees and beg your forgiveness while im at it ?
> 
> ...


All of that and you still never answered the simple question. What do you want to learn and how can I help you? 

May I make a suggestion? Try starting here http://www.dvgamerica.com/2004VDHEnglishVersion-1c.pdf


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Had my reservations to posting on here, but did it to explain the difference to a other member that stated that she wasn't familiar with your form of training ( tracking ). So Sorry if it came out wrong but it is what it is and I felt like it was the best way in my eyes to explain it in a brief but precise answer.;-)



Harry is obvious that you are not familiar with with the sport either. Here is a good place to get more familiar with the sport:http://www.dvgamerica.com/2004VDHEnglishVersion-1c.pdf

Thanks for the apology.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Harry is obvious that you are not familiar with with the sport either. Here is a good place to get more familiar with the sport:http://www.dvgamerica.com/2004VDHEnglishVersion-1c.pdf
> 
> Thanks for the apology.


No disrespect but I totally get it because I have had the chance to be on both sides of the situation in one way form or another. I'm just at the point of giving apologies instead of arguing with most on here.:lol::grin:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> All of that and you still never answered the simple question. What do you want to learn and how can I help you?
> 
> May I make a suggestion? Try starting here http://www.dvgamerica.com/2004VDHEnglishVersion-1c.pdf



Chris,

Let me try and explain something from my point of view here, firstly i dont like being at odds with people be it in real life, be it on forum....

Now i stated several times already that i dont understand the sports and that i made an assumption of how it worked and that i was wrong in that assumption...yet you seemed to ignore that fact...you went on the defense for some reason that i dont really understand to be honest...

May i ask something ? wouldnt it have been easier to ask before you jumped up in defense ? you never even gave an inch of room for any response or explanation from my side you just steamrolled in...

Im thinking you decided..."what a ditz...lets show her in her rightfull place" or maybe im wrong and you never ment anything at all and im just reading you all wrong chris...that however could also mean that you read me completly wrong as well couldnt it...

maybe you understand where im coming from now ? maybe show a bit more restraint and patience ?
you know chris i actualy noticed i did something stupid and i made a joke in the form of "please be gentle" in hoped you understood by that that i realised the mistake and that you would take a bit more time to think about what i posted instead of jumping over the post to start with ...i know im knitpicking now and maybe even irritating you to some point...but you could have shown a bit more restraint and maybe in future you should try not to see some remarks or posts made as coming of as allknowing...some people actualy do want to help...that was all i ever intended and nothing more.

Im not going to apologize to you since i feel i have nothing to apologize for to start with..i just hope you can see what i ment and where im coming from.

I am however going to thank you for your info and have a long good look at it...ive been over this forum already to gather more stuff and ive had some friends provide me with insights on IPO/SCHH/MONDIO/FR and PSA

and sorry if i didnt ask you for your help in your previous post but i felt that if i did i would get shot down again..maybe a wrong assumption on my part but thats just the feeling you are throwing out to me..if i am wrong then that i will apologize for.

thanks again for the link.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Chris S, Alice said in her first post at this topic that she wasn't fimiliar with the IPO/Schh tracking, see the bold part, and continues with what she would do from her experience with the KNPV search.
> It was obviously she didn't know the how and what of IPO/ Schh tracking so I explained the differences in goals and the most likely to be choosen teaching styles.
> 
> Btw: I recomend you put Alice on your ignore list if she irritates you so much.


Selena, "I don't do" is a far cry from "I can't do" or "I don't know how to do". 

Let me explain what the issues is. Tracy has a problem tracking. Then people that have never done the sport, or tried to do the sport and failed, start throwing out crazy suggestions and try to explain what they don't know themselves . These bad suggestions are then taken seriously by other people that don't know anything about the sport and the cycle of ignorance continues.

Just think about the recent thread about the KNPV when when David F. questioned the number of perfect and very high scores in KNPV and how he felt that those scores might be artificially high due to corruption. He was just giving his* opinion* and the KNPV fans had a hissy fit and now he's banned for life. What would happen if he was factually wrong? Send KNPV ninjas to his house?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Just think about the recent thread about the KNPV when when David F. questioned the number of perfect and very high scores in KNPV and how he felt that those scores might be artificially high due to corruption. He was just giving his* opinion* and the KNPV fans had a hissy fit and now he's banned for life. What would happen if he was factually wrong? Send KNPV ninjas to his house?


I was wondering how long he was banned for this time. I told him, you have to be careful who's Cheerios you pee in around here, it's OK to bash some sports or people as much as you want, but say something negative about certain sports or people and you are out of here.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I was wondering how long he was banned for this time. I told him, you have to be careful who's Cheerios you pee in around here, it's OK to bash some sports or people as much as you want, but say something negative about certain sports or people and you are out of here.


I find that a bit sad or sick and would ask why? I mean (just to be clear) why would it depend on whose Cheerios you piss on?? As long as they're not mine??


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: He was just giving his opinion and the KNPV fans had a hissy fit and now he's banned for life.

AWESOME.

Give us some sage tracking advice Chris, I certainly enjoyed watching your dog track. Nothing like cringing to complete the Sch tracking picture.

Deep nose is how the dog is scenting not how close to the ground it is, but of course you knew that.

Quote: I was wondering how long he was banned for this time. I told him, you have to be careful who's Cheerios you pee in around here, it's OK to bash some sports or people as much as you want, but say something negative about certain sports or people and you are out of here.

I guess this is kinda like your take on French ring, isn't it. I guess you have gotten used to not being questioned. Show me your ring one video again, and lets go over the point deductions.

You want to see piss in Cheerios ?? I'm your Huckleberry.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Give us some sage tracking advice Chris, I certainly enjoyed watching your dog track.


Good here it is again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RWFh3LZ0Kk

Enjoy


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Selena, "I don't do" is a far cry from "I can't do" or "I don't know how to do".
> 
> Let me explain what the issues is. Tracy has a problem tracking. Then people that have never done the sport, or tried to do the sport and failed, start throwing out crazy suggestions and try to explain what they don't know themselves . These bad suggestions are then taken seriously by other people that don't know anything about the sport and the cycle of ignorance continues.
> 
> Just think about the recent thread about the KNPV when when David F. questioned the number of perfect and very high scores in KNPV and how he felt that those scores might be artificially high due to corruption. He was just giving his* opinion* and the KNPV fans had a hissy fit and now he's banned for life. What would happen if he was factually wrong? Send KNPV ninjas to his house?


For your first sentence: I believe you on your word, that is does, I think I miss (or have missed) the finer point in English here.

for you second paragraph, yes I get that pictures, that's why I explained why to Alice there is a hughe (sp?) difference between the both and that she made the wrong assumption. It was about 3 post after Alice, so no harm done, I guess?

About David F.: if you remember the thread well, you also know that I answered his question about the high score and ask him what he considered high percentage. I have missed the part about corruption cause I went to bed (different time zone).


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I was wondering how long he was banned for this time. I told him, you have to be careful who's Cheerios you pee in around here, it's OK to bash some sports or people as much as you want, but say something negative about certain sports or people and you are out of here.


 For life, 'cause 3 strikes (in less than a month) are a def OUT!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> for you second paragraph, yes I get that pictures, that's why I explained why to Alice there is a hughe (sp?) difference between the both and that she made the wrong assumption. It was about 3 post after Alice, so no harm done, I guess?


Do you mean the one where you tell her how you think it's done then said that you don't have the skill to do it? Aaaahhhhh.....Yeah.....I saw that.](*,)


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> For life, 'cause 3 strikes (in less than a month) are a def OUT!


I vote to bring him back after this weekend.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Do you mean the one where you tell her how you think it's done then said that you don't have the skill to do it? Aaaahhhhh.....Yeah.....I saw that.](*,)


No, how IPO tracking is learned here in HOlland, by a lot of clubs, and that I've trained the program.
I'm not afraid to admit I didn't had the skills at that moment ( that was 8/9 yrs ago, with my first dog) and that I was constantly frustated it didn't work out 'cause i had to learn more.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I vote to bring him back after this weekend.



I'd like to see David F let back too. He's no more weird or opinionated then a lot of other list members and sometimes Cheerios need pissing in


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> One other question..... leash under front leg or through back legs? I have tried back legs and I just dont like it, I prefer the front leg.... anyone have opinons on this? PROS/CONS to either?
> 
> t


I was doing the same, through front legs only. At a seminar the instructor was walking along with me. He said look at what your dog is doing with his hind legs. The dog was side stepping to avoid the leash rubbing on his legs. HE told me to stop and reposition the lead through the hind legs. Sure enough no more side stepping. He said the result is more focus on the track as the dog doesn't have to side step the lead, before the dog was actually multi-tasking, side stepping the lead and tracking.

Eddie


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> One other question..... leash under front leg or through back legs? I have tried back legs and I just dont like it, I prefer the front leg.... anyone have opinons on this? PROS/CONS to either?
> t


I think it just depends on what's right for you and your dog. For Edwards dog it works best with the leash between the back legs, for my dog, I have the leash only between the front legs.

I agree with those who would like to see David allowed back. He has a ton of good knowledge to share, and the truth is he is no more abrassive than some others who frequent this forum.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ian Forbes said:


> Normal suggestions for this type of issue:
> 
> -Put articles close to the start.
> -Put lots of corners in.
> ...


If the dog is not picking up the scent from the begin of the track, why bring articles, a lot of corners, etc. into the equation.

A dog should be able to calmly and intensively take up the scent from the start of the track before one proceeds with articles and corners.

I think Kadi's ideas of trying to calm the dog before starting it on the track would be a good idea. I had a "leaper" and it is detrimental to success to let a dog start like this. Alice Bezemer is not far from the truth whatever sort of tracking they do and, let's face it, the basic operation is done with the dog's nose.

I fed mine from hand up to the track start at first and, held it back (here a Böttcher Geschirre) is helpful as you can hold the dog by the harness until you are certain it's picked up the scent.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> im wondering...
> 
> how far away is your first tracking object ? and does he skip it insistently or is he just that overeager to track that he misses it since hes to quick...
> 
> ...


 
Hi Alice, to put more pressure is not such a bad idea. Dogs that behave like that are often "over-motivated" by food (or in our case (KNPV) by the retrieve).

They "forget" to concentrate at the trail and the human scent.

There is not so much difference in healing for example. If tension comes at the leash, dogs want to pull. If is becomes a habit, the dog will want to create the tension every time more and more.

So the fist stap is, asuming the dog knows how to track, to let him know there may not be any tension at the leash. One option for that can be a " lieslijn" (Alice please translate...;-)). Anyway the drive should be decreased to make room for concentration.
So NO motivation source at the track. This will only INcrease the problem.

Dick


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

> " lieslijn" (Alice please translate...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Groin line is the best one i can come up with  we use the line bystringing the line behind either the left or the right leg along the groinarea....or the other version which is taking the line and wrapping it around the waist of the dog and looping it back through the back legs...this increases a choke on the waist everytime the dog tends to put tension on the line...i am however not sure which version you are refering to Dick...myself i prefer the second version...

and Yep i know what you mean...tension creates drive (for lack of a better explanation)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Groin line is the best one i can come up with  we use the line bystringing the line behind either the left or the right leg along the groinarea....or the other version which is taking the line and wrapping it around the waist of the dog and looping it back through the back legs...this increases a choke on the waist everytime the dog tends to put tension on the line...i am however not sure which version you are refering to Dick...myself i prefer the second version...
> 
> and Yep i know what you mean...tension creates drive (for lack of a better explanation)



Alice,

Is that similar to a boetcher (sp) tracking harness?
A line/collar around the dogs waist that the tracking line is attached to and a short "tab" connecting to the dogs fur saver.
The idea (I think) is as the dog creates tension his head is pulled down into the track.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Alice,
> 
> Is that similar to a boetcher (sp) tracking harness?
> A line/collar around the dogs waist that the tracking line is attached to and a short "tab" connecting to the dogs fur saver.
> The idea (I think) is as the dog creates tension his head is pulled down into the track.



its hard to explain lol...imagine the dogs collar...put a long leash on it and make sure the collarring is at its throat...pull the elash between front legs to waist and hold there with one hand...loop the rest of leash around the waist and when u get back to your other hand loop the leash through the bit your holding in your hand...pull the leash back between its hind legs...its like a knot only now the dogs waist is in the know...when the dog pulls to hard it will tighten on the waist and it will slow the dog down...it will also bring the dogs head down to the ground since its a simple knot...i use it a lot in KNPV to keep my dogs from taking a leap at the start of the trackingcourse.

its a dual action way of making the dog slow down ...the other version i also use with the line just going over its shoulder and under the hond leg to go back thru the legs allong the groin...irritating for the dog and it will slow it down as well...it all depends on the dog you are working with ...one will work better then the other depending on the dog


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> its hard to explain lol...imagine the dogs collar...put a long leash on it and make sure the collarring is at its throat...pull the elash between front legs to waist and hold there with one hand...loop the rest of leash around the waist and when u get back to your other hand loop the leash through the bit your holding in your hand...pull the leash back between its hind legs...its like a knot only now the dogs waist is in the know...when the dog pulls to hard it will tighten on the waist and it will slow the dog down...it will also bring the dogs head down to the ground since its a simple knot...i use it a lot in KNPV to keep my dogs from taking a leap at the start of the trackingcourse.
> 
> its a dual action way of making the dog slow down ...the other version i also use with the line just going over its shoulder and under the hond leg to go back thru the legs allong the groin...irritating for the dog and it will slow it down as well...it all depends on the dog you are working with ...one will work better then the other depending on the dog



I just wanted to mention that what I use and do and i train KNPV so i dont want any missunderstanding about that...so im not saying it will or will not work in any other version of sports...im just giving this as an example of how i do it in my own branch of sports 8-[


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> its hard to explain lol...imagine the dogs collar...put a long leash on it and make sure the collarring is at its throat...pull the elash between front legs to waist and hold there with one hand...loop the rest of leash around the waist and when u get back to your other hand loop the leash through the bit your holding in your hand...pull the leash back between its hind legs...its like a knot only now the dogs waist is in the know...when the dog pulls to hard it will tighten on the waist and it will slow the dog down...it will also bring the dogs head down to the ground since its a simple knot...i use it a lot in KNPV to keep my dogs from taking a leap at the start of the trackingcourse.
> 
> its a dual action way of making the dog slow down ...the other version i also use with the line just going over its shoulder and under the hond leg to go back thru the legs allong the groin...irritating for the dog and it will slow it down as well...it all depends on the dog you are working with ...one will work better then the other depending on the dog


In my experience, when you use physical things to slow the dog down, the dog speeds up even more when the equipment comes off.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Alice,
> 
> Is that similar to a boetcher (sp) tracking harness?
> A line/collar around the dogs waist that the tracking line is attached to and a short "tab" connecting to the dogs fur saver.
> The idea (I think) is as the dog creates tension his head is pulled down into the track.


I think what she is talking about is using the leash to make a bottcher.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think what she is talking about is using the leash to make a bottcher.


Maybe your right Chris..I dont know the Böttcher leash to be honest and have never used it.



> In my experience, when you use physical things to slow the dog down, the dog speeds up even more when the equipment comes off.


I agree with you on that....its not something i have used on young dogs that have no experiance in tracking in my area of sports....its something i would purely use for the dogs that keep overshooting the startingline and basicly missing the first retrieval object. I already discovered that theres a huge difference in your and my version of tracking...where as you have a large trail that takes a long time to follow (im not sure if theres a set timeframe for you..havent gotten that far yet) we only have a small trackingfield fo 14 x 14 meters for the retrieval of 3 small objects within 3 minutes...the whole reason i would use the groinline is to give the dog a mental nudge as to tell him HEY! theres a startingline here and you need to pay attention to it...its bringing the attention back to me and trying to bring some semblance of peace to the dog and haveit concentrate better on the task at hand...now this way has helped me a lot with most of my dog but not all of them...every dog needs a different approach in order to get from it what i need...this is just the one best responded to im my case...

Like i said earlier it will not work for everyone...but its just one of those many roads to rome that could be applied


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> (im not sure if theres a set timeframe for you..havent gotten that far yet)


15 minutes sch 1&2
20 minutes sch 3

If a dog is not having any problems it should not take more than 10 minutes.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> 15 minutes sch 1&2
> 20 minutes sch 3
> 
> If a dog is not having any problems it should not take more than 10 minutes.



thanks 

explain to me how you use the Böttcher ? ive seen the leashes but i cant picture a visual on how it would work and id hate to get the wrong idea.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The snap on the right side connects to the dog's collar. The loop on the left goes around the dogs waist or ribcage. The tracking line connects to the metal circle on the left bottom. 










To use a bottcher for schutzhund trial it can't restrict the dog. So it can't be used to keep the dog's head down, nor can it touch the dog's penis.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> The snap on the right side connects to the dog's collar. The loop on the left goes around the dogs waist or ribcage. The tracking line connects to the metal circle on the left bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like a great tool to use..the only difference with what i use whould be the choke in the line on the waist then as added incentive...thanks for explaining


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

How would the choke loosen back up after you give a correction, on your thing? 

I have also seen the the waist part of the bottcher made with pinch collar links.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> How would the choke loosen back up after you give a correction, on your thing?
> 
> I have also seen the the waist part of the bottcher made with pinch collar links.


since its a single loop it hardly ever snagged on me then again it also depends on what kind of rope or leash you would use and if the leash is dry or wet....

since it snagged on me i did experiment on preventing that in future and came up with a tube and some knots in the leash according to the size of the dog...i used a kneepipe that is used in construction for electrical wiring and knoted that into place and its never snagged on me again since the leash/rope has no obstructions anymore...











the things we think up huh


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I agree with you on that....its not something i have used on young dogs that have no experiance in tracking in my area of sports....its something i would purely use for the dogs that keep overshooting the startingline and basicly missing the first retrieval object. I already discovered that theres a huge difference in your and my version of tracking...where as you have a large trail that takes a long time to follow (im not sure if theres a set timeframe for you..havent gotten that far yet) we only have a small trackingfield fo 14 x 14 meters for the retrieval of 3 small objects within 3 minutes...the whole reason i would use the groinline is to give the dog a mental nudge as to tell him HEY! theres a startingline here and you need to pay attention to it...its bringing the attention back to me and trying to bring some semblance of peace to the dog and haveit concentrate better on the task at hand...now this way has helped me a lot with most of my dog but not all of them...every dog needs a different approach in order to get from it what i need...this is just the one best responded to im my case...


Alice, would you be talking about the "Revier (German) or Search Square? English). You say 14 m x 14 m which makes me think it is as we have in our National Schutzhund Trials? The fact that you say he is "jumping over the line" makes me think he has air-scented the first object where the idea is to get the dog to systematically quarter the field and indicate the objects as he comes to them. Time: 10 minutes to retrieve all 3 objects. Here, in our trials if a dog air-scents an object and indicates or brings it, it's allowed but at our trial at the weekend, one dog retrieved all 3 objects in about 2 minutes and was not happy about systematically searching until the judge decides he's seen enough correct quartering.

In National Schutzhund there is a trail as well as square searching.

This isn't done in German Schutzhund or IPO where there is only a trail.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Alice, would you be talking about the "Revier (German) or Search Square? English). You say 14 m x 14 m which makes me think it is as we have in our National Schutzhund Trials? The fact that you say he is "jumping over the line" makes me think he has air-scented the first object where the idea is to get the dog to systematically quarter the field and indicate the objects as he comes to them. Time: 10 minutes to retrieve all 3 objects. Here, in our trials if a dog air-scents an object and indicates or brings it, it's allowed but at our trial at the weekend, one dog retrieved all 3 objects in about 2 minutes and was not happy about systematically searching until the judge decides he's seen enough correct quartering.
> 
> In National Schutzhund there is a trail as well as square searching.
> 
> This isn't done in German Schutzhund or IPO where there is only a trail.


I have to run out and do some work with Robbie but when i get back ill get try and explain exactly what KNPV does and where most of the problems come into play and what the rules are for us


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice, you don't have to explain the whole KNPV, maybe just the tracking square which I think it must be, i.e. 14 m x 14 m. That is no trail!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Alice, would you be talking about the "Revier (German) or Search Square? English). You say 14 m x 14 m which makes me think it is as we have in our National Schutzhund Trials? The fact that you say he is "jumping over the line" makes me think he has air-scented the first object where the idea is to get the dog to systematically quarter the field and indicate the objects as he comes to them. Time: 10 minutes to retrieve all 3 objects. Here, in our trials if a dog air-scents an object and indicates or brings it, it's allowed but at our trial at the weekend, one dog retrieved all 3 objects in about 2 minutes and was not happy about systematically searching until the judge decides he's seen enough correct quartering.
> 
> In National Schutzhund there is a trail as well as square searching.
> 
> This isn't done in German Schutzhund or IPO where there is only a trail.



Gillian

Sounds like our
Stoberprufung (sp) or Random article test?
30 x 50 meter search square at the STP III level with 5 stranger articles. The dog has to indicate the articles with no trail in to the articles. Articles are either thrown in from outside or placed by judge and then a group of people walk across the field to obscure the judges track.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Alice, you don't have to explain the whole KNPV, maybe just the tracking square which I think it must be, i.e. 14 m x 14 m. That is no trail!!


its the retrieval of 3 small object in an area of 14 x 14 mtrs so not the "revier" 
3 objects are placed in the field by the judge which the dog must retrieve...so a search if you will
time allowed is 7 minutes but retrieval within 3 minutes is high score

revier is on an area of 150 x 75 mtrs minimum with either the decoy or a wooden box on the end of a trail.
dog must follow trail and bark when object or decoy has been found...object/decoy may not be bitten. 7 minutes for dog to find either and high score within 3 minute discovery.

and its not a trail in the sence you would have a trail....but the judge puts the pieces on one continues small trail for the dogs to retrieve so basicly the dog starts at the same point for each retrieval...a small trail if you will but a trail non the less...its not 3 trails for 3 pieces  mind you this is regards to PH1 program.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks.

In Swiss trials, we call our search square "Revier" just as it is called "Revier" around the hides. Actually I think the Swiss National Schutzhund was based on the UK Police Trials but some didn't like the dog finding a decoy at the end of the trail and the object guarding taken on by the judges without padded suits, hidden arms etc. caused problems with the employers and the insurance firms as some wanted to add "notches to their belts" as in WWII!!. A shame really, as it was it was definitely interesting.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If the dog is not picking up the scent from the begin of the track, why bring articles, a lot of corners, etc. into the equation.


I didn't see any post saying the dog was not picking up any scent. I read that the dog was too excited and sets off too quick and without any precision.

Sometimes the cause of this is a dog that has gotten used to straight tracks and getting a reward at the end.

Corners tend to slow a dog down.

Lots of articles and only rewarding at the articles tend to make a dog search more thoroughly.



> A dog should be able to calmly and intensively take up the scent from the start of the track before one proceeds with articles and corners.


I agree, which is why I also recommended Kadi's suggestions.



> I think Kadi's ideas of trying to calm the dog before starting it on the track would be a good idea. I had a "leaper" and it is detrimental to success to let a dog start like this. Alice Bezemer is not far from the truth whatever sort of tracking they do and, let's face it, the basic operation is done with the dog's nose.
> 
> I fed mine from hand up to the track start at first and, held it back (here a Böttcher Geschirre) is helpful as you can hold the dog by the harness until you are certain it's picked up the scent.


I don't feed a dog from hand before a track, but I will wait for them to calm down and when I start training I heavily bait a scent pad at the start pole with food, so the dog gets used to takig a while at the start.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

this thread has been very informative. thanks for posting...


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

> I don't feed a dog from hand before a track, but I will wait for them to calm down and when I start training I heavily bait a scent pad at the start pole with food, so the dog gets used to takig a while at the start.


Ok but how to you get the dog to the scent pad.... this is the worst part for us. You cant touch the dog for 10 paces out..... do you not practice this and just wait for trial day? I can calm him but I know this dog, he will only load and explode, so Im gonna hope that feeding and coming up slowing and marking will help.

In our case, making it harder and mostly by removing the food is helping the situation..... I will also be coming into the pad from a different angle and maybe even remove the flag.... havent tried this yet but we will. For us the food was overloading the dog, remove the food and the dog settles much faster. I was thinking we werent ready to move on by his "overloading" but the fact is, it was the not moving on by removing the food that was causing the overloading.... does that make sense?? lol

t


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tracy I teach the obedience portion as a separate exercise when the dog is tracking well. But at first I just walk up with the dog with my line in the correct position and let the dog do his thing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To follow up on Chris's comment, I view walking up to the sent pad as just another part of obedience. 
I said in another post that I walk up, put the dog on a sit and then "calmly" take time to straighten out my line behind the dog. I do this at the trial track also. It sets the calm mood I wanted in FST.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Alice,
Maybe in addition to mention,in SchH the handler is not allowed to influence the dog at all during tracking.
And it is all done on lead,in KNPV these 3 excercises are all of lead.The dogs are not judged on the way they take scent or track, only the end result counts.When searching for the three articles you are aloud to move up and down the baseline?You can not praise the dog for searching but encourage the retrieve?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ian Forbes said:


> I didn't see any post saying the dog was not picking up any scent. I read that the dog was too excited and sets off too quick and without any precision.
> 
> Sometimes the cause of this is a dog that has gotten used to straight tracks and getting a reward at the end.
> 
> ...


 
My idea is that if you don't teach the dog to calmly and intensively work out a simple track, straight or curved, no articles, from the beginning, then this "racing" will crop its ugly head up at some time or other. And the dog probably only picks up the scent after a yard or so because as you say, the dog has learnt to race forward, knowing that he'll get the scent somehow or other but that isn't the essence of tracking.

Even if the dog does articles and corners well, it could be a good thing to "practice" for the trial by doing such a simple trail and insisting on his heeling by your side up to the start. I did feeding from hand when he was a pup only, afterwards I made him walk correctly to the start. 

This way, you can do 2 or 3 tracks, one after the other and the dog will always have success at the end. If corners and articles are done, it may be that he encounters difficulties, thereby ruining the exercise by failures.

I even do this before they call me for the track on trial day, offsides, just about 10 yards with food on the track and at the end. Puts him well into tracking modus.

Tracy, I wish you luck!!!


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> Ok but how to you get the dog to the scent pad.... this is the worst part for us. You cant touch the dog for 10 paces out..... do you not practice this and just wait for trial day? I can calm him but I know this dog, he will only load and explode, so Im gonna hope that feeding and coming up slowing and marking will help.





Christopher Smith said:


> Tracy I teach the obedience portion as a separate exercise when the dog is tracking well. But at first I just walk up with the dog with my line in the correct position and let the dog do his thing.





Bob Scott said:


> To follow up on Chris's comment, I view walking up to the sent pad as just another part of obedience.
> I said in another post that I walk up, put the dog on a sit and then "calmly" take time to straighten out my line behind the dog. I do this at the trial track also. It sets the calm mood I wanted in FST.


Same answer as Bob and Chris. I don't expect my dog to drag me out to the obedience field, the protection field or the tracking field. I get in a routine of calmly getting ready for the track.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jack van strien said:


> Alice,
> Maybe in addition to mention,in SchH the handler is not allowed to influence the dog at all during tracking.
> And it is all done on lead,in KNPV these 3 excercises are all of lead.The dogs are not judged on the way they take scent or track, only the end result counts.When searching for the three articles you are aloud to move up and down the baseline?You can not praise the dog for searching but encourage the retrieve?


For PH1 you are allowed to encourage (gently so no yelling)...the way of searching does not matter..if its high or low as long as the objects are retrieved...you are also allowed to move along the baseline..rewarding in search is not allowed..

In PH2 you are allowed to encourage (gently lol no yelling) ..field is 21 x 14 meters divided in 3 7 meter search area's each area has a searchobject to retrieve...handler is only allowed to move along the baseline from left to right and not back...he is allowed to stand still...if an abject was missed dog is not allowed to go back in order to retrieve that object. rewarding in search is not allowed.

all searches/tracking is of the leash.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> I was doing the same, through front legs only. At a seminar the instructor was walking along with me. He said look at what your dog is doing with his hind legs. The dog was side stepping to avoid the leash rubbing on his legs. HE told me to stop and reposition the lead through the hind legs. Sure enough no more side stepping. He said the result is more focus on the track as the dog doesn't have to side step the lead, before the dog was actually multi-tasking, side stepping the lead and tracking.
> 
> Eddie


My dog hates teh leash through his back legs because it rubs on the family jewels. He is able to concentrate better on the track with the leash only under the front leg.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> Ok but how to you get the dog to the scent pad.... this is the worst part for us. You cant touch the dog for 10 paces out..... do you not practice this and just wait for trial day? I can calm him but I know this dog, he will only load and explode, so Im gonna hope that feeding and coming up slowing and marking will help.
> 
> In our case, making it harder and mostly by removing the food is helping the situation..... I will also be coming into the pad from a different angle and maybe even remove the flag.... havent tried this yet but we will. For us the food was overloading the dog, remove the food and the dog settles much faster. I was thinking we werent ready to move on by his "overloading" but the fact is, it was the not moving on by removing the food that was causing the overloading.... does that make sense?? lol
> 
> t


I had the same problem with my dog being too exciting when I started tracking. He would literally pull me out of the truck and would barely sit still to position the line under the front leg. They he wouldthen run down the track and miss turns having to circle back. 

This is what worked for me. I put a prong collar on his neck high and tight. I started telling my dog to heel when I got him out of the truck. I made him sit for a while and watch me before we proceeded to the track. Once I reached the scent pad, I made him sit and watch me. Then I command him to give me his paw, I then placed the line under his front leg. I then made him sit for a while and watch me and pretend to look at a judge for the ok to begin tracking. I then tell him to search. He is so calm at this point he tracks more purposely and slowly. The tight prong also helps because if he pulls too hard he self corrects. 

After 4 months, I don't track with a prong collar anymore. In fact I don't have to tell him to heel, he knows that when I pull out the long line it's time to track. I pause and he sits there and waits for me to move. When I come to the scent pad, he automatically lifts his paw for the line to be placed under his leg. After that he sits and watches me until I give him the search command and then we proceed. 

If you train with a lot of obedience before the track, after a while, he will start to do it naturally as part of the routine. I was told to practice the way you want your dog to perform in trial. I want my dog to appear well trained and disciplined. It puts the judge in the right mindset and it gets me and my dog's head in the game.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Mike Jones said:


> My dog hates teh leash through his back legs because it rubs on the family jewels. He is able to concentrate better on the track with the leash only under the front leg.


OK, whatever works for ya. I have a good pace with my dog, so the line isn't that tight. The instructor was a world competor from Germany who won many competions. Milian something. It worked for my dog, and certainly worth a try.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> OK, whatever works for ya. I have a good pace with my dog, so the line isn't that tight. The instructor was a world competor from Germany who won many competions. Milian something. It worked for my dog, and certainly worth a try.


Whatever works for whatever dog. My dog also sidesteps when it's only under one front leg, so I go between the back legs too. My dog is big and I am not that big and I hold the line fairly low, so the angles seem comfortable for him. 

Unless he's going too fast then my hands might come up a little... purely by accident, of course.

Laura


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Whatever works for whatever dog. My dog also sidesteps when it's only under one front leg, so I go between the back legs too. My dog is big and I am not that big and I hold the line fairly low, so the angles seem comfortable for him.
> 
> *Unless he's going too fast then my hands might come up a little... purely by accident, of course.*
> 
> Laura


:-o

That's just nasty!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

thanks for the pointers. I have always used a prong to track w/ this dog.... we are looking MUCH better.  The lack of food has helped him settle but we still have the happy tail.....for now ;-) He is still overshooting the corners but not bad, same for cross tracks. He checks and comes back... very happy so far.

I have also taken the flag away and that has helped.... as now he has to "find" the scent pad... er and me too lol.

He is doing well enough now that there are times, I want to correct as I am unsure but I am trusting in him and he is right.... good sign... I still hate tracking... no improvement on that :-({|=

t


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> .... I still hate tracking... no improvement on that :-({|=


me too.. I just did hitt track on asphalt about 600 yards with food every 40 feet and the dog did great..and I LOVED it...that was far more gratifying. I had a water sprayer handy and used it..


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> me too.. I just did hitt track on asphalt about 600 yards with food every 40 feet and the dog did great..and I LOVED it...that was far more gratifying. I had a water sprayer handy and used it..


aint no asphalt on a Schutzhund track this will prolly do your Schutzhund tracking more harm than good


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## Stephanie Perrier (Feb 7, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> The picture you want to see is the dog on rails after the second corner my dog was perfect. This particular judge like to stay close to and eyeball the dog pressure of sorts/ distract.


I've been under her a couple times. She doesn't miss a thing Mike, a 94 is a good score there


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

thought Id give a labor day update. First track of the weekend was horrible, I did not adjust for the change in conditions (different grass, later in day, etc) and he got lost, I got lost, it was a total mess and very disturbing....:-({|=

next day I began revisiting the articles..... dont even ask... picture the hardest dog you have ever taught the articles to and ten fold.... :-({|=

Monday, wanted to make ammends on the horrible track from Sat, bought kebab spears for guidance so I wouldnt get lost, whoever suggested this... AWESOME idea thank you!! track was very nice from start to finish, slow and pretty, 200 paces, lots of corners and turns and a few cross tracks, aged well, half a body length to check cross track back on, and he is now hitting corners by no more than a head length over and some right on... very good. finish great get in the car to go to the ob field..... doing ob look in his mouth as we are heeling see? a bug? no dirt I think to myself, keep going dont pay much attention. When done I am hanging with him and i look again.. his mouth is FILLED with red ants, all must have died while pinching him as they were not easy to get off.... white and red bumps all over the inside of his mouth.... in places I have never explored.... :-({|=

Did I mention i hate tracking????? :-({|=

t


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> thought Id give a labor day update. First track of the weekend was horrible, I did not adjust for the change in conditions (different grass, later in day, etc) and he got lost, I got lost, it was a total mess and very disturbing....:-({|=
> 
> next day I began revisiting the articles..... dont even ask... picture the hardest dog you have ever taught the articles to and ten fold.... :-({|=
> 
> ...


try freezing your track food...I use hotdogs, I freeze them and put them out frozen solid, keeps the ants to a minimum..."usually" LOL...

ants own this planet...
I still have not found the LOVE for tracking that people tell me I will get..


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Yeah Ive done that in the past but here in Florida, freezing doesnt last long esp on small little food...basically nonexistent.... I am just not going to age it as long until the weather cools.... never had the problem until this track where it was aged for a while.... just frustrating and i felt so bad as he showed no signs and just his happy self heeling along....I KNOW from personal experience how much those buggers hurt...my poor guy.:evil:

t


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm just started reading thread-don't know if these suggestions have already been given.
1.play with him before tracking
2.make sure he's hungry
3.try not to interfere-lay track to fit problem
4. many tiny pieces of food on scent pad
5. Are you short? I am & my natural stride is short so my dog misses a footsteps, sometimes going down one side or the other increasing his speed. I lenghten my stride & this slows him down.
6. I tried pinch-didn't work
7. He slowed down when I dropped leash
8. Try Ivan's circle track-works on adult dogs too. It removes handler pressure.
9. I've seen some people starting the track BEFORE the flag so the dog doesn't launch at flag.This makes sense if you do it consistently because it breaks the flag/excitement connection.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Hi Sue, 
Since its a long thread, in a nutshell, I was holding him back (not physically) as he seemed too excited still..... I didnt think he was ready to move on.... once I removed MUCH food he was better and calmer and thinking and working... in review, all the food was working against us and loading him.... creating the problem.

For the start, I have pushed the flag back to the "tail" leading up to the scent pad so now he has to find the scent pad..... looking very nice so far with these adjustments....

t


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