# black wolves and clear headed dogs



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

1. re : the black wolf story Nicole posted…
i differ somewhat from Bob and do think it’s possible to make an intelligent comment on the subject

i tend to believe the report since it seems like a well documented case. the pics cannot be ignored. naturally, i wish there had been some biological studies done on the wolf post mortem, more background on what this wolf's diet and how isolated it was from other wolves, etc.
- but the fact remains that behaviors that “work’ for an animal are often conditioned and more likely to be repeated; whether it’s wild, domestic, or somewhere in between

regarding the source of the wolf story : the wildlife photographer. he is well known, but more as a writer than a photographer, and has written many articles and made a few movies….for profit  To me, that implies he might be influenced more on the “story” aspect rather than the science behind it, so for me, that affects his credibility in a negative way. there are more people interested in “wild black wolf likes to play with domestic dogs”, rather than "K locus mutant gene seems to be responsible for black colored wolves” //lol//

perhaps this study might shed some light on explaining the behavior : 
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/biologists-solve-mystery-about-80301
- it seems to put out some dots that may be 'connectable" 

fwiw, there was also a well studied case of a black wolf in yellowstone whose behavior was quite different from other yellowstone wolves who lived “outside the box”, and this wolf led a very productive life in his own unique way 

either way, when and if behaviors can be geneticially explained, these situations might make more sense, but i’m not holding my breath it will happen in my lifetime 

2. what interests me more on the genetics side, is how we often hear the phrase “clear headed” in dog breedings, and how it’s a quality we all hope for. 

actually, i have no idea what this really means. what’s the differences between a dog who has a clear head and one who doesn’t ?? what is ‘clarity' and why is it considered a good thing ?? how would you test to see if a dog was clear headed, or is it an intangible that you simply “know it when you see it” ??
- most of the times i read about it, it’s refered to the sire, but i guess it could be a female trait too.
- it’s often stated by breeders to describe temperament … as in "he is very clear in the head”, which makes me laff 'cause it’s similar to the way sports announcers describe golfers “he’s a great driver of the golf ball”, as if it were different from driving a “car” or anything else. where else could a dog be clear except in its head ? //lol//

also, is it a trait of the dog or is it a relationship; or a type of bond with the owner/handler ?? would a dog be clear headed with one person but maybe not with another ?? 
- i ask this because i feel my own dog is very clear headed, but i think that opinion would not be shared by others who would interact with him //lol//
- for me, he is very focused on any task at hand, not easily distracted and extremely clear on what he likes and dislikes. all of which would seem to indicate his head is clear.

my gut feeling is it's a term of endearment that doesn’t have a measurable definition. i’ve never really given it much thought until recently when it was mentioned again in another thread, and now i'm beginning to wonder if it's genetic or trainable
- from my perspective, and personal experience, it isn’t a trait that that stands out and is noticed so i’ve rarely used it.
- also never heard it used by inexperienced dog owner or newcomers to the dog world, so maybe that is indicative of something too ?

so maybe i’m simply not experienced enuff to recognize this trait when it’s there

….hopefully those who use this term can expand and explain it in depth. it’ll be the last thread i start here so i’ll be in ‘read and learn’ mode //lol//


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My definition of a clear headed dog

For lack of a better word I would say a "thinking" dog or a dog that can read a threat and not react just because of any particular movement or behavior in front of it.

Not over reacting. 

A serious dog can be clear headed or it can be an accident waiting to happen because it can't "think" through a problem. It just reacts, often out of fear, sometimes out of an excess of prey/play drive.

The wolf in the video was lacking in caution with people. 

That is counter productive to their natural behaviors and would be dead in most other situations doing this.

What we call a spooky dog is more the natural behavior of the wild canids. It's survival!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> My definition of a clear headed dog
> 
> For lack of a better word I would say a "thinking" dog or a dog that can read a threat and not react just because of any particular movement or behavior in front of it.
> 
> ...


interesting. to me, that sounds like some hocus pocus stuff. for me, the term "clear headed" has nothing to do with a dog's ability to perceive a threat. i don't want my dog assessing threats. i want him responding to my commands. what you're describing speaks more to a dog's reactivity or thresholds. for me, "clear headed" means that the dog doesn't disengage his brain when in drive. while some people may look at a dog and say "he's clear headed", i might say "he just doesn't have much drive". so the drive and "clear headedness" are independent of one another. a "clear headed" dog is much easier to teach the out, not because they lack drive, but because they are still able to think and respond to commands from the handler while in drive. the reverse can also be true. to the uninitiated, a "clear headed" dog may seem to lack the drive of the dog who hangs onto a bite suit until choked to within an inch of their life, to the person who knows what they're looking at, lack of drive may not be what's going on. with a "clear headed" dog, it's their ability to think or the ability to NOT shut out the rest of the world while in drive. my definition anyway...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

10 minute time limit for edits is so stupid....

as far as testing for it and is it genetic or trained....i think it's one of those terms that isn't limited to one trait or one thing that makes it up (similar to the infamous "fight drive"). i think it's a combination of traits that make it up. which may in fact mean that it's not a trait or drive or singular behavior that we witness. i can come up with a dog with theoretical traits that would look like what i call clear headedness. take a dog with over the top prey drive and is very handler sensitive. i haven't seen a ton of dogs like this, but i have seen a few. endless combinations that could be defined as clear headed. high prey, moderate defense, sensitive to e-collar, etc. 

once again, perhaps a contradiction. just a late night stream of consciousness.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Tim, I am glad you took the time to post a reply. I was hoping someone, with what I'd consider legit time/experience with and around working dogs, would respond. Despite my lack of experience in a real world capacity, what you said mirrors my own experiences and impressions on this subject.

Separately, and this is for rick, the most recent reference where "clear headed" was used, was also somewhat contradicted in the description of the breeding bitch. I think Tim's explanation bridges the contrasts between the two rather well.

My Dutch for example, was not clear headed in the work. My intentional lack of OB development in her first two years had something to do with that. She was a bit like tar once she got onto something. Unfortunately, the actions employed to remedy that were faulty. Later tested in a "real world" (police) application it did not pan out well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"clear headed" means that the dog doesn't disengage his brain when in drive."

Much better, and simpler explanation then my drawn out "hocus pocus". 

Thanks Tim. ;-)


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

LOL. sorry bob, didn't mean it like that. 

and to the OP, i absolutely agree that training does play a part. you can teach a dog to think in drive, but it's much easier to do when the dog is young. that's what's tough when testing "green" dogs that are two years old and have only been taught to bite and hang onto a sleeve and have to be choked out to let go so they look good when departments come to test them. teaching them to think in drive isn't as easy as it sounds. it's easy to pattern train a dog and have it look like it's thinking, but it's not. thinking means that they listen for the handler's next command while continuing to do the job at hand. so you have to vary every element like time, and the command (sit, down, up sits, heel, etc). at first the dog will anticipate and do what they think will get them their reward. still not thinking. by varying the elements, the dog eventually gets it that the handler controls the exercise. again, it's much easier with a younger dog.

i'd guess it's probably more training than genetic, but i do think there is a genetic piece of the pie that pre-disposes the dog to be better at thinking in drive, but if not trained/brought out properly you won't see it if the dog's drive is high.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

so far so good....i'm seein some dots to connect 

hope the discussion continues and would like to see how this term relates to more than bitework

it's why i brought it up in the first place, and why i mentioned in the beginning that the term is rarely or never brought up by pet owners


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Alright rick, it appears the picture is getting a little clearer for you on this. I've never seen/heard anyone use the term outside of dog-man engagement. Maybe someone else has and would like to comment on it?

Here's a video for you, maybe it fits for you - maybe not. Course, I really don't know what she was doing. But, it is a good example of that WTF flag she seems to have stuck to her tail. 

This video is the essence of the Wasabi Experience and I kinda like that about her.  Whatever it is about her that makes her do this stuff works for me. She reminds me to not take everything in life so seriously and that not everything can be predicted or planned out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWYTM0AK2SY&feature=youtu.be

Honestly, I think clear headed is best fit with bite work. I don't estimate that it could necessarily be a one-to-one overlay with something like the hunting Bob once did. But, I'll toss the idea and see if he or some of the other guys with experience in that area can comment on it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Nicole...can't get youtube to work :-(((((
so i'll check that video later

re : "clear headed" means that the dog doesn't disengage his brain when in drive."
-- if Bob's summary of Tim's explanation is correct, shouldn't 'clear headed' have applications beyond bitework ?? 

like many others, i've only heard it referred to in bitework and advertising claims by breeders and vendors

- newcomers : feel free to add your experience with the term and whether it means anything to you at face value

- i see another way to look at the term clear headed :
if a dog will commit to a bite and still listen to the handler i call that WELL TRAINED, and that implies the term is more than genetics
- with that said, it goes without saying that genetics and training go hand in hand 

here's another bitework related example : a dog who will grip deep and go into a trance like state and block out the world until pried off the grip. i'm sure many of you have seen that in the real world, and my gut feeling is some would also consider that a 'clear in the head' dog. T/F ??

the topic interested me because it is a term used often that has never had a clear meaning to me. 
- just like the term "shut down", which i also wanted to start a thread about but never bothered to post my draft
- when you work with people who don't "talk K9" you need to explain things to them, not just use dog terms they won't understand like "drive" or "shut down".

i'm no PHD in K9 behavior, but i think i know enuff about how dogs view the world 

actually dogs have a much simpler brain structure than humans, so this should be easier than explaining human behavior. often it isn't, and for me that is often a challenge since i encourage people to ask questions and they pay me to have answers


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

About the only frame of reference as a counter that I can offer you is a term you have probably seen me use. Drive stupid.

As with anything it certainly can be trained over to better control, but it's genetically there or it's not. IMO clear headed is a dog that expresses a balanced combination of drive states in a specific frame of work and is capable of demonstrating that time and again regardless of training situation/environment.

Maybe look at it this way, I doubt you're probably never going to see a Poodle referred to as a "game dog" (not consistently anyway), which is why I suspect you won't see the application of clear headed used outside of specific contexts in a working application. 

Dogs may have less complex brain structures than the humans who work with them but that isn't going to change the fact that pet dog norms or very basic training and behavioral terms aren't going to be poked and refined based upon application. As such dogs will be bred to express behaviors necessary to be successful in the work. This is why I don't think it's one or the other, it's a combination of things.

Sit means sit, or does it? 

I'm not trying to justify away something that could be broken down into something more basic. I suppose you either subscribe to it or you don't.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

One more thing. In the topic titled "when you are the problem" one of the members gave an example of placing basically what some call a ball tree out to hold the reward for the send out.

Most dogs would be fine to use this type of securing mechanism with, my dog, is not one I would ever use it with. Or if I did, I'd proceed in caution. Why? Her drives aren't balanced. I think there's applications for dogs like her but as Brian Anderson said sport isn't always a good fit or the best fit for some dogs.

1. she cannot be trusted to not rush toward the reward with such force that she'd probably slam into the object and somehow injure herself.

2. she's what some would call possessive. Basically, she wants what I have, especially in training/reward situations, which does include the process of taking away things from her if not done in a certain manner. I could very much see her grabbing both a ball or a tug and whatever object was used to secure those items. In fact, the reward would possibly even become the ball tree for her and she might just leave the tug or ball. It's just the way she operates. *Enter Wasabi:* My goodness, you have something that you seem to not want me to have. Well, then I most certainly must have it. While I'm at it I will take the ball too just in case you want that as well. If she actually thinks like that, I doubt it... but her actions certainly suggest it.

I have an example of this on video but I am not going to post it. Basically she has a ball and a tug both in her mouth, and at times also has a copper pipe that she somehow fits in her mouth and if it's not in her mouth then she's got it between her feet or is covering it with her body. 

As George Michael said, everything she wants is everything she sees.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> here's another bitework related example : a dog who will grip deep and go into a trance like state and block out the world until pried off the grip. i'm sure many of you have seen that in the real world, and my gut feeling is some would also consider that a 'clear in the head' dog. T/F ??


Some, perhaps, will say true off that description alone. I do not. 

There are several observable behaviors that usually take place before and after that would give me enough information to then say yes or no. The description offered is lacking in those elements or detail.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I might add to the thought that 'clear in the head' when a dog is in 'drive' also means that it doesn't whip around and tag its handler or any bystander other then it'd target. It keeps a discernment about itself and the environment and the circumstances, adapting as necessary, not just relying on the rush of endorphins, adrenaline and instinct. To me, that is clear in the head.. And it doesn't have to be bite work, but any high stress adrenaline charged, instinct releasing situation...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Misty Wegner said:


> I might add to the thought that 'clear in the head' when a dog is in 'drive' also means that it doesn't whip around and tag its handler or any bystander other then it'd target. It keeps a discernment about itself and the environment and the circumstances, adapting as necessary, not just relying on the rush of endorphins, adrenaline and instinct. To me, that is clear in the head.. And it doesn't have to be bite work, but any high stress adrenaline charged, instinct releasing situation...


very well said. agreed on all points.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I will give an example based on my doing earth work with terriers.

My Border terriers were easily the most man soft and dog friendly of all the different terrier breeds I've seen or worked with.

Their problem was their being dead game. 

Once they engaged quarry there was no way of stopping them and that the reason I stopped hunting Borders. 

They weren't clear headed when working quarry.

My male had killed two different raccoons in the ground and took a terrible beating getting it done both time but both times came out of the earth wagging his tail and dancing around like he just caught a mouse. 

I wasn't into doing earth work to loose a dog and got my first JRT from working lines.

Believe it or not the crazy ass JRTs are "usually" very clear headed in the ground and make excellent baying dogs. 

I hunting my first one for a couple of yrs and he never took more then the occasional nip. 

BOTH breeds were all about their breeding.

The Border terriers were from the border area between England and Scotland.

This is VERY rocky country and strong sheep country and very hard to dig.

The dogs in the area were bred to go in and kill the fox because of the damage they did in lambing season. 

The JRT was developed more in the south of England to bolt the Quarry for the hounds on the formal hunts and it was the hounds job to finish the fox when the terrier bolted it from the ground. 

Actually the JRT is one of the few terrier breeds today that actually aren't generally used to kill the quarry.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm also not a big fan of the "tree" for the send out for two reasons.

I don't want the dog to see the ball/tug/etc because I want it to "believe" it's there through training.

It also seems to me there is a chance of the dog running into the small rods I've seen these trees made out of although I've never heard of this happening.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Misty and Tim
- i hear what you are both saying but want to throw this out too for consideration.

re : "'clear in the head' when a dog is in 'drive' also means that it doesn't whip around and tag its handler"

have either of you seen this up close ?
i have and i'm pretty sure Tim has

in every case the reason was the bond between handler and dog was off
(and just to be clear, for ME that means mutual trust/respect between dog and handler)
won't debate the genetic side of this because it's always there....wanna look at the training issue that needed to be dealt with since i'm assuming the dog is WORKING not being evaluated for the potential to work

in 5-6 cases that i saw, a change of handler fixed the problem. same K9. clear with one but not with the other ? maybe, but i see that as a training issue more than the genetics the dog brought to the table, and some situations required a lot more backing up. and in some i would go so far as to say the handler was the one who wasn't clear headed but thge K9 got blamed


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I have seen it in both working dogs and pet dogs. And while I agree with you Rick, that training and a bond fully intact encompassing every aspect of a relationship (working, non working, etc) I still believe that genetically, some dogs know how to stay in touch with reality and just like some people who are just, naturally 'level headed' and can handle stressful situations well, so too the dog. It can be trained in people, the level headedness, but it is stressful for some to even begin - again, same with some dogs. 

I think most of us have owned one of those 'magical' dogs that intuitively knows what want, need, works hard, easily trained, thrives on challenges, has excellent discrimination skills, etc... If we are honest, the dog makes us look good with little effort. Can't take credit for it, for the most part, but it happens. Not all dogs are like this, and even the hardest of the hard can come around and become loyal effective partners, but takes a boat load of work.. Which dog is 'clear in the head'? Both may end up the way, but one was naturally and one was trained up through education, bond, trust etc... Just thoughts


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Very interesting stuff guys. I like Misty's comparison with people's differences in stress.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Big OOPs, didn't read right again. She didn't say that!! I was just thinking of how people with practice can learn to handle super exciting and/or stressful situations. Myself, I stress and react without thinking pretty naturally, but my folks handle emergencies in stride. I thank God they raised me and helped me learn to react a little more appropriately. I've actually helped others stop and think in high stress situations a few times. I could never handle a job that involved that though. As for my Shepinois and Mal, they bite first without much thinking it seems when in high drive. I'm soo glad I got the less driven Shepinois first. She taught me, along with the forum about this. I have to recognize when they are about to become not clear headed to prevent problems. And most importantly, train in these situations. Younger the better, I agree. I know the female Shepinois can think and not bite inappropriately. She doesn't want to risk a bite from my bigger, more dominate male, so she now controls herself with him completely. She respects an e collar too. Just my input as a novice. Love learning from you guys.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

I don't mean to say this is a respect issue mostly, but a breaking through to get attention issue. Different dogs may respond to different approaches to break through to get their attention.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

tx for the inputs

here's the best example i could find of what i would consider a high drive clear headed working dog that doesn't involve much gripping/biting :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2BfzUIBy9A

it happens to be the same vid i posted before as an example of proofing but for me it explains clearheaded too


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

chaulk up another thread from my weird POV //lol//

over the years my perspective just seems to get weirder whenever i try and connect “pets” with “working dogs” 

oddly enuff, i see more amd more similarities rather than differences. this forum seems more oriented towards discussing the differences, with the emphasis on the “working” side. no biggy…different strokes for different folks ;-)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick, I'm surprised its taken you this long to realize/verbalize that. We are after all here to talk about dogs. What drew people here, obviously lies in the topic of the forum header. The reason for that has more to do with social interests than anything.


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