# Question about Koehler Guard Dog book



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

First, I'm not looking for an opinion on Koehler or his method, I just want to understand something about the book. Hopefully that will keep this simple.

I was reading The-Koehler-Method-of-Guard-Dog-Training. In it he writes about two kinds of dogs, the "trained attack dog" and the "natural protector." Then he goes on to write about choosing a type and selecting a breed and individual dog. He offers some tests to give the prospect. Then he classifies several purposes for the dog: alarm dog, threat dog, and the man-stopper. After that the book continues on to introduce agitation training, police dog training, plant security dog training and so on.

Where I get lost is back at the difference between a "trained attack dog" and a "natural protector." Koehler offers a good case for choosing a natural protector versus the attack dog (and vice versa) but I'm lost as to which dog the rest of the book applies. What training applies to the "natural protector"? Just obedience? How much of the agitation work that he describes is appropriate for the natural protector and what applies exclusively to the "attack dog?" Where in the book does he make this clear?


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Bart Karmich said:


> First, I'm not looking for an opinion on Koehler or his method, I just want to understand something about the book. Hopefully that will keep this simple.
> 
> I was reading The-Koehler-Method-of-Guard-Dog-Training. In it he writes about two kinds of dogs, the "trained attack dog" and the "natural protector." Then he goes on to write about choosing a type and selecting a breed and individual dog. He offers some tests to give the prospect. Then he classifies several purposes for the dog: alarm dog, threat dog, and the man-stopper. After that the book continues on to introduce agitation training, police dog training, plant security dog training and so on.
> 
> Where I get lost is back at the difference between a "trained attack dog" and a "natural protector." Koehler offers a good case for choosing a natural protector versus the attack dog (and vice versa) but I'm lost as to which dog the rest of the book applies. What training applies to the "natural protector"? Just obedience? How much of the agitation work that he describes is appropriate for the natural protector and what applies exclusively to the "attack dog?" Where in the book does he make this clear?



I will have to pull out my Koehler books- or as I refer to them as my dog bibles..... and I may be way off base, but if my memory serves me correctly, the way I understood the differences of the dogs- the Natural protector is that- he will protect without the formal training, it comes with a bond, a trust and a certain temperment of the dog-the dog is clear headed, not looking for a fight, but will protect what is his- for example- IMO this dog was a Natural protector....years ago, taught this GSD basic obedience-zero protection work, family had a little girl-the little girl and dog Baron became best of buds-one day dog in house, little girl outside-father across the road talking with neighbor-heard little girl calling for dog- then saw dog come crashing thru the front window and running around to back of house- of course dad and neighbor went running after the dog to see, little girl was being taking out the back yard by some loser dirt bag- dog with NO protection training, bit this guy stopping him in his tracks -little girl was safe- IMO that was Natural- dog protecting his family.

the attack dog- has to of course have the correct temperment, but it is now directed, fine tuned, and is taught triggers to react to- for example, dog learns to react on command, but also to react by an aggressive response or show of threat from bad guy, should handler be unable to give a command. The attack dog is taught how to hold on to that bite, and to get a great, debilitating bite, thru proper training. The liability of the bite is higher here- due to the training involved. 

I think what he is pointing out also- is not all dogs will have the temperments to be man stoppers- some will protect what is theirs, but not necessarily go looking for the fight, and some may be just alarms-but when choosing a dog or pup, he gives suggestions of what to look for and what to avoid.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Mo! 
Koehler also comments in that chapter that the "natural protector" was much harder to find.
I would add that's more so today!
I also had one when I was a kid (GSDxCollie)
I did my very first OB work with Taffy but she was definitely a natural protector. 
Someone broke into the garage to steal our bikes. The guy was hanging onto the rafters with his calf muscle damn near torn off and Taffy was on her hind legs trying for another chance at him.
After that I was often told by some of the badasses in the neighborhood that they would beat my ass if they ever caught me without that ************* dog. 
Being the classic boy and is dog, they never got the chance.:-D


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

The GSD I currently have broke down a door frame and saved my life from a guy that was on meth and he had no protection training. I was stabbed 9 and cut 3 times and was beginning to not be able to fight anymore when the dog got in. Every dog I've ever owned has been protective of me. Its a bond that you share with your dog IMO. I get ill when people saay if your dog has no training he won't protect you if you need him too. People that say stuff like just can't make a dog love them like I can. When I first got on this forum I was amazed at some of the things I've been doing my whole life while not really knowing what I was doing. I'll give you an example. When I picked my current dog I went to the breeder and his daughter pulled out all the puppies from the kennel they were in with the mama dog. We stood there with all the puppies playing with them picking them up and what not. One that I picked up was not even remotely interested in me and I shunned him away. Well the breeder threw some feed on the ground and the pups started hunting around for it. Over the course of probably 10 minutes about half of the pups walked back up to the fence where the mama was. Another 10 minutes passed and they were all up there except one aand he was about 30 yards away running around with his nose to the ground. I whistled real loud and he looked up at me. I patted my leg and he come running. He was the one I got and was also the one I had shunned earlier. A couple weeks ago a guy I believe to be pretty knowledgeable told me I hit a homerun on selecting the puppy and I didn't know anything about selecting a puppy. I also had a guy kick one of my dogs and I beat his a** and while I was the dog joined in. I'm very protective of my dogs and they know that and in return I believe that's why they have always been protective of me. Sorry bout the novel but I'm at work and nothings tearing up so I got time to kill so to speak.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i am often asked to help people with their family pet problems and one of the most common is a dog with serious resource guarding issues.
i haven't read Koehler in years but i don't believe he discusses this issue and i have found in real life family pet problems, it is almost ALWAYS a resource guarding problem rather than any type of "protection" being displayed by the dog.....although that is ALWAYS what the owner feels is happening.

these same dogs are usually VERY weak and have absolutely NO protection genes in their body.....they have NO instinctual ability to determine whether a threat exists or not.....and will in almost every case turn tails and run when THEY are actually threatened, and i often set up that scenario to drive home the point to their owners

we will all continue to read of the amazing exploits of dogs saving people by coming to their rescue......but these media grabbing stories are rare compared to the hundreds of thousands of resource guarders who bite innocent children, innocent strangers and ignorant family members every year all over the world.

owners who want a TRUE protection dog need to invest time money and effort to produce one, and the results are not guaranteed regardless of the investment. I for one do NOT think they come that way out of the whelping box, regardless of whether Koehler would agree or not !!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

a dog with a good bond that "loves" its owner will do what it can naturally. this may be barking or may be tearing down a door...

I did not read that book...but can say there are "out of the box" natural type dogs and there are dogs that are capable with training.

If you are lucky to have a "natural" type dog, that does not mean that the dog cannot benefit greatly from training...it just means that he is active and will rise to the occasion, without training. what he does and how he does it can still be molded by training.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> a dog with a good bond that "loves" its owner will do what it can naturally. this may be barking or may be tearing down a door...
> 
> I did not read that book...but can say there are "out of the box" natural type dogs and there are dogs that are capable with training.
> 
> If you are lucky to have a "natural" type dog, that does not mean that the dog cannot benefit greatly from training...it just means that he is active and will rise to the occasion, without training. what he does and how he does it can still be molded by training.


I still have all my Koehler books. They were all purchased in the neighborhood of $15 new.

Anyone know what they sell for today?

http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Amazon.com I got mine used for $11. Who cares that the book has a stain on the cover and it smells like mothballs, as long as it still has all the pages I am cool. 





Jerry Cudahy said:


> I still have all my Koehler books. They were all purchased in the neighborhood of $15 new.
> 
> Anyone know what they sell for today?
> 
> http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

rick smith said:


> i am often asked to help people with their family pet problems and one of the most common is a dog with serious resource guarding issues.
> i haven't read Koehler in years but i don't believe he discusses this issue and i have found in real life family pet problems, it is almost ALWAYS a resource guarding problem rather than any type of "protection" being displayed by the dog.....although that is ALWAYS what the owner feels is happening.
> 
> these same dogs are usually VERY weak and have absolutely NO protection genes in their body.....they have NO instinctual ability to determine whether a threat exists or not.....and will in almost every case turn tails and run when THEY are actually threatened, and i often set up that scenario to drive home the point to their owners
> ...


when you say resource guarding are you saying he's possessive and is guarding me like I'm his property? 

You say they are "usually" very weak well that may be true but its hard for me to see how a 75 lbs GSD can be "weak" and mine is anything but.

"NO protection genes" well he seemed to do alright that night. just saying

unable to distinguish whether a threat exists or not. well I guess with all the fighting going on inside my house that night he was able to "distinguish" that there was true threat. "turn tail and run" ok. let me see if I can drive this point home to ya. I would NOT be here typing this message if my dog did that. 

when you said exploits are you implying that I could be lying or maybe stretching it a little bit, just wondering, and as far as children go he lays on his back and plays with my 2y/o niece and other children all the time. his favorite thing to do is play fetch and since he really gets after the ball and kind of looks like a cat in the way he stops it from bouncing the kids love it as much as he does. I am 99% positive he would never bite a child. also my mother has a jack/rat mix who jumps on him every time he sees my dog and all my dog does is pick his head up high and push him back with his feet. 

owners who want a true protection dog need a lot of time "money' and effort to produce one. I 100% agree with you on the time and effort but I think this whole GSD's have no protection genes belief is driven by money and people trying to make it. people think cause my dog doesnt have all these titles(which I'm working on) he wont protect me well if there that confident maybe they should attack me and see for themselves what he does.

I have always known I had a special connection with all my animals but as I read this site sometimes I think to many people put to much emphasis on training and not enough on relationship with dog. there is no way possible that someone who breeds, trains, and kennels 30+ or even 5+ dogs can have the same relationship and connection that I have with my one. I'm very new to all this schutzhund stuff and what not but I think once I learn it and the foundation I already have with dogs I can be pretty good at it who knows though. 

I'm going to end by saying this and i dont mean this to come off as mean or whatever but just because a dog with no training wont protect you or is not able to distinguish a threat with you does NOT mean he wont protect me. 

I also think i may have lucked up and found an old generation GSD. the guy I got him from uncle and dad brought 4 back from germany when they were in WWII. I will post a few pics later with some good side shots of him and I would love to hear what some of you think about his appearrance. check out the first video on this page i have linked. to compare him with.


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## Carlos Machado (Dec 28, 2008)

What he meant by resource guarding they are usually growling and snapping or biting there family or friends who get to close to there food or bone or couch it could be anything and often they feel threatened for no real reason usually they have weak nerves not bodies making them insecure fear biters that will usually run from a real fight. I totally beleve many dogs have have natural protective ability's with natural courage but just because you see a dog freaking out at a you through a window doesn't mean they will bite or fight training is always a good idea.
I had a rottie that would scarce the shit out of people walking by and bit a few people in my house that reached to fast for her or hugged her I took her for testing and training she barked and was forward and would bite but wouldn't fight much she had to much defense to quick to bite almost a fear biter but after some training she realized that people actually had to ask for a bite she lived another 5 years and never bite another person again but would if needed.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Carlos Machado said:


> What he meant by resource guarding they are usually growling and snapping or biting there family or friends who get to close to there food or bone or couch it could be anything and often they feel threatened for no real reason usually they have weak nerves not bodies making them insecure fear biters that will usually run from a real fight. I totally beleve many dogs have have natural protective ability's with natural courage but just because you see a dog freaking out at a you through a window doesn't mean they will bite or fight training is always a good idea.
> I had a rottie that would scarce the shit out of people walking by and bit a few people in my house that reached to fast for her or hugged her I took her for testing and training she barked and was forward and would bite but wouldn't fight much she had to much defense to quick to bite almost a fear biter but after some training she realized that people actually had to ask for a bite she lived another 5 years and never bite another person again but would if needed.


absolutely nothing like that thanks for clarifying. a child could walk up and grab his food bowl.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Many people like to think that their dogs would naturally protect them and probably fight to the end, in many cases it isn't true. Of all the dogs i've had only one has been a 'natural protector' and there are real bites to prove. The other dogs would bark like crazy but when the pressure is really high they would retreat. The male i have is very calm, plays with strangers and often gives the impression that he's docile until someone decides to test him then they find out he's not so docile.
Most very sharp dogs IMO aren't really strong, many of the very strong dogs have a somewhat 'balanced' temperament and onl display aggression when appropriate. Training is the best way to be sure, dogs can be full of surprises


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Koehler and his attack trained dogs...how does that sell in court when the dog bites someone and it's "attack trained?" Some might view this as a wild, blood-letting beast with no regard for anything...:roll:


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Howard obviouly you havent read the book, Koehler covers the entire leagal aspect of owning a trained dog vs a natural guard dog before ever mentioning a word about training methods. Would saying a dog is "Protection Trained" going to make a differance, if a dog is proven to have any traininmg in bite work it's not a hard sell to a jury that the dog was "Attacked Trained", one picture of the dog on a sleeve would make the case even if it's purely level 1 sport work.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> Howard obviouly you havent read the book, Koehler covers the entire leagal aspect of owning a trained dog vs a natural guard dog before ever mentioning a word about training methods. Would saying a dog is "Protection Trained" going to make a differance, if a dog is proven to have any traininmg in bite work it's not a hard sell to a jury that the dog was "Attacked Trained", one picture of the dog on a sleeve would make the case even if it's purely level 1 sport work.


Agreed!! Too many people are so quick to judge or criticize Koehler! Most critics when confronted have never read or read very little of his writings!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Got the book, read the book, and still have it...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Tho koehler's book may be a bit old school in his methods, he did mention more than a few things that books nowadays completely ignore. The legal ramifications of protection training,selection of natural protector vs attack trained(& the pro's and cons of both) methods of pup/dog selection techniques(and the basis for them) and more.
There are dogs that are "natural protectors" available, but most people believe that these dogs may be unstable due to their willingness to bite anything they percieve as a threat/intruder. I've trained all the dogs i've bred using Koehler's book, not because they needed training, but because training offers the dog a chance to learn how,where,when and why to bite. Training also offers an owner/handler of such a dog an opportunity to gain & keep control of his dog. These two facts are true whether you use Koehlers methods or anyone else's.

To answer the OP's question, after Koehler mentions trained vs natural the majority of the book is geared towards the attack trained animal. IMO OB should be taught to both, but the attack trained animal should be a lot better at OB than the other. IMO too much strict OB in a naturally protective dog tends to make them a bit less aggressive,which may or may not work for the individual. If you use all of Koehler's agitation methods on a dog you consider a natural protector, you are simply taking that dog a step higher in his protective ability by making him an attack dog.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> To answer the OP's question, after Koehler mentions trained vs natural the majority of the book is geared towards the attack trained animal. .


The military got away from training "attack" dogs and conducting "attack training" in '68 when the Washington DC Police Department introduced patrol dogs to the military. We no longer did attack training. We did "controlled aggression exercises". How do you say tomato.

DFrost


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

David Frost said:


> The military got away from training "attack" dogs and conducting "attack training" in '68 when the Washington DC Police Department introduced patrol dogs to the military. We no did attack training. We did "controlled aggression exercises". How do you say tomato.
> 
> DFrost


Yeah i know right. So they're kinda saying the dogs have had a complete course of "controlled aggression exercises", so if some nut were to approach the sentry the dog won't bite. Maybe the dog would just direct him to an anger management therapist.:roll:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> The military got away from training "attack" dogs and conducting "attack training" in '68 when the Washington DC Police Department introduced patrol dogs to the military. We no longer did attack training. We did "controlled aggression exercises". How do you say tomato.
> 
> DFrost


 It's still the same thing, but window dressing DOES SELL! The very reason we don't use "attack trained" with regards to club or personal use. End result, da dawg bites, tree huggers understand the language, and there's a warm and fuzzy feeling for all!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Of all my dogs over the years I have only had one that I could say was a true natural protector. A working line Australian Cattle dog, she could most definitely pick up the difference between a threat and a non threat. She was a very stable dog in public, friendly and calm and definitely not a resource guarder. 

I was truly threatened once and she stood in front of me and as the person moved towards me she moved towards him with a look in her eye I had never seen before. There was no fear, just serious intent, she was warning him and I could tell she was judging the point of no return where she was going to make her move. The would be attacker backed off and left and she backed off and came back to me. 

I still miss that dog, probably the most loyal dog I ever owned and definitely the smartest and most assessing.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Sara Waters said:


> Of all my dogs over the years I have only had one that I could say was a true natural protector. A working line Australian Cattle dog, she could most definitely pick up the difference between a threat and a non threat. She was a very stable dog in public, friendly and calm and definitely not a resource guarder.
> 
> I was truly threatened once and she stood in front of me and as the person moved towards me she moved towards him with a look in her eye I had never seen before. There was no fear, just serious intent, she was warning him and I could tell she was judging the point of no return where she was going to make her move. The would be attacker backed off and left and she backed off and came back to me.
> 
> I still miss that dog, probably the most loyal dog I ever owned and definitely the smartest and most assessing.


Bingo! that's exactly what the NaturalProtector should be like, most think the super defensive dog that just wants to attack everything that comes close is a Natural Protector.... sorry but far from it. There is a huge differance between protective and defensive, the protector has more of a preditorial mindset with strong pack drive and not defensive IMO, he's cool, calm and ready to destroy if he feels a "real" threat and is truelly concerned with your safety putting you first, they asses and react accordingly.
There are obvously differant levels of this as with anything else, but what I described is the ideal example IMO.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Mike Valente said:


> Bingo! that's exactly what the NaturalProtector should be like, most think the super defensive dog that just wants to attack everything that comes close is a Natural Protector.... sorry but far from it. There is a huge differance between protective and defensive, the protector has more of a preditorial mindset with strong pack drive and not defensive IMO, he's cool, calm and ready to destroy if he feels a "real" threat and is truelly concerned with your safety putting you first, they asses and react accordingly.
> There are obvously differant levels of this as with anything else, but what I described is the ideal example IMO.


Yes she was preditorial and had a very strong pack drive, she liked to make sure she took the lead on walks and all the other dogs including me stayed behind her. LOL. Never had another dog like her, I could swear she was almost Dingo/wolf like both in appearance and character. Quite a few people used to comment on this whith her siver coloured pelt, brush tail and predatory yellow eyes.

I have also owned a super defensive dog but she was driven by fear, very unstable and lots of hard work.


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