# Analyzing Raw Diet



## Anne Vaini

A continuation of the original discussion of this thread: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/thinking-aloud-about-prey-model-feeding-10082/

#1: Would you rather feed:


Green tripe with 12,000 CFU/G of lactic acid bacteria.
Plain yogurt with 12 million CFU/G of lactic acid bacteria.
Probios dispersible powder with (guaranteed minimum) 10 million CFU/G of lactic acid bacteria.

I've had an issue with Probios powder because it is packed in sucrose, I ASSume that the dried bacteria are inactive, therefore the sucrose isn't digested, so it's essentially giving the dog a spoonful of sugar. Can anyone challenge that logic with some more information or data?

I expected the green tripe to have higher CFU/G. I don't have details on the age of the sample or method of storage.

Yogurt is really easy for me to make and have on hand.

Another option would be cultured, fermented plant matter as previously discussed on this thread. I tried this without using a starter culture and chickened out - I threw it in the compost. Next time I'll use a starter culture!

#2: Anyone know off-hand of natural sources of vitamin E? I upp-ed my dog's vit E to 400 IU per day (35 lb dog) and saw an improvement. This is an item that I hope to address in a diet, not in a pill form.


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Vaini said:


> .... #2: Anyone know off-hand of natural sources of vitamin E? I upp-ed my dog's vit E to 400 IU per day (35 lb dog) and saw an improvement. This is an item that I hope to address in a diet, not in a pill form.


For dogs, it'd be some produce, including leafy greens, and oils.

For humans, you'd add some nuts.


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## Anne Vaini

Anne Vaini said:


> #2: Anyone know off-hand of natural sources of vitamin E? I upp-ed my dog's vit E to 400 IU per day (35 lb dog) and saw an improvement. This is an item that I hope to address in a diet, not in a pill form.


Looks like raw egg, pumpkin, and fish are winners here: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR21/nutrlist/sr21w323.pdf

How can I find out how heat processing and/or fermenting affect vitamin E levels in leafy green veggies?


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Vaini said:


> A continuation of the original discussion of this thread: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/thinking-aloud-about-prey-model-feeding-10082/
> 
> #1: Would you rather feed:
> 
> 
> Green tripe with 12,000 CFU/G of lactic acid bacteria.
> Plain yogurt with 12 million CFU/G of lactic acid bacteria.
> Probios dispersible powder with (guaranteed minimum) 10 million CFU/G of lactic acid bacteria.
> 
> I've had an issue with Probios powder because it is packed in sucrose, I ASSume that the dried bacteria are inactive, therefore the sucrose isn't digested, so it's essentially giving the dog a spoonful of sugar. Can anyone challenge that logic with some more information or data?
> 
> I expected the green tripe to have higher CFU/G. I don't have details on the age of the sample or method of storage.
> 
> Yogurt is really easy for me to make and have on hand.
> 
> Another option would be cultured, fermented plant matter as previously discussed on this thread. I tried this without using a starter culture and chickened out - I threw it in the compost. Next time I'll use a starter culture!


My vote is 1 and 2, except for lab-tested probiotic supplements. I joined ConsumerLab for those results, but now I have the info "saved" somewhere.

I'll fish it out. My subscription has expired (it was temporary, to study probiotics).
I do remember that Culturelle rated high in actually containing the live cultures it claimed to contain. It did not have a lot of_ strains, _as did two others, but still -- which strain is needed is still a crap shoot at the present stage of probiotics research.


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Vaini said:


> Looks like raw egg, pumpkin, and fish are winners here: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR21/nutrlist/sr21w323.pdf
> 
> How can I find out how heat processing and/or fermenting affect vitamin E levels in leafy green veggies?


Remember that the list you linked looked for alpha only.


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## Michael Wise

Are you wanting to address the entire vit E supplementation or just amount that you recently increased?

Either way, wouldn't it require consuming A LOT of the sources mentioned to make much of a dent?


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Vaini said:


> ... How can I find out how heat processing and/or fermenting affect vitamin E levels in leafy green veggies?


Fermenting, I'd have to research.

Heat, though, is not as hard on E as on many other vitamins. Cooking, for example, including baking, degrades E almost not at all. Frying, though (and especially deep frying) oxidizes the E in the food. Long storage does too.


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## Connie Sutherland

Michael Wise said:


> ... Either way, wouldn't it require consuming A LOT of the sources mentioned to make much of a dent?


Yes.


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## Michael Wise

For the first question, I'd say green tripe. Or I'm sure any other grass fed digestive tract would be good, too. When they are available.

My only basis for this is my, and I think your, desire to supplement as little as possible and "address in a diet, not in a pill form".


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## Connie Sutherland

Michael Wise said:


> For the first question, I'd say green tripe. Or I'm sure any other grass fed digestive tract would be good, too. When they are available.
> 
> My only basis for this is my, and I think your, desire to supplement as little as possible and "address in a diet, not in a pill form".


Me too.

I do make a major exception for E (preferably mixed tocopherols) because of the wildly skewed modern diet that is so Omega-6 rich and so deficient in long-chain 3s, causing a need for supplementing with 3s from fish oil. This is my reason for supplementing with E.

The negative factor of fish oil supplementation (easily oxidized) is largely negated by giving E with it.
_Nair, Padmanabhan P., et al. Dietary fish oil-induced changes in the distribution of alpha-tocopherol, retinol, and beta-carotene in plasma, red blood cells, and platelets: modulation by vitamin E. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 58, July 1993, pp. 98-102_

Also, daily addition of fish oil reduces the serum levels of E, which again is negated by giving E with the fish oil.
_Sanders, T.A.B. and Hinds, Allison. The influence of a fish oil high in docosahexaenoic acid on plasma lipoprotein and vitamin E concentrations and haemostatic function in healthy male volunteers. British Journal of Nutrition, Vol. 68, July 1992, pp. 163-73
_

These are studies from the 90s, but nothing current (that I have seen) contradicts them.

Dr. Messonnier, the author of The Allergy Cure for Dogs, says:
"In pets, fish oil is useful for reducing inflammation in pets with allergic skin disease and kidney failure. It possibly also helps pets with heart disease and osteoarthritis. Studies show that pets fed high doses of fish oil also have better control of cancer. Extra vitamin E is needed when giving fish oil on a regular basis as fish oil supplemented for many months can lower vitamin E levels."

I probably would not give fish oil if I could not give E. And I'm a big-time fan of fish oil for dogs.


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## Anne Vaini

It just occurred to me that finding nutritional information on the plant matter in green tripe shouldn't be too difficult - it's most likely to be corn silage. Livestock feed seems to be thoroughly studied. I bet it's out there.

ETA: Silage contains a vitamin pre-mix, which may contain up to Vitamin U in levels up to 3.52 IU/g. It also may not contain any at all. Not entirely helpful... Unless I can get the butcher to tell me where the cow came from... :lol:

However, it would be helpful to know how much plant matter is retained in the tripe.

As far as Vit E (alpha) going through heat processing and/or fermentation, I simply compared USDA nutrient database information for raw, cooked and fermented cabbage. Cabbage only contains alpha, so I can't comment on the others.

Raw .15 mg per 100 g
Boiled .14 mg per 100 g
Fermented .14 mg per 100 g


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## Michele McAtee

so you need 285,700 grams of boiled cabbage to get 400 ies? What is the equation? lol! 17,856.25 lbs? lmao. I'm just crunching these numbers in my head. lolololol!


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## Anne Vaini

Michele McAtee said:


> so you need 285,700 grams of boiled cabbage to get 400 ies? What is the equation? lol! 17,856.25 lbs? lmao. I'm just crunching these numbers in my head. lolololol!


:lol: I never said it was a good source. :lol: Just one I could think of where I could get the information for all three states for comparison.


FYI:
596 mg = 400 IU for natural d-alpha tocopherols. So 397,333g or 875.969lb of cabbage. :lol: Did I do that right?


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## Anne Vaini

Some information on green tripe:

Moisture 71.37%
Crude Fat 11.70%
Protein 15.82%
Ash 1.23%
Phosphorous 0.14%
Calcium 0.12%
Calories 756.35 cal/lb.
pH 6.12
Lactic Acid Bacteria 12,000 CFU/G
Linoleic Acid (EFA) 2.72%
Linolenic Acid (EFA) 0.37%
Fiber 1.1%

It seems from some calculations that it is reasonable to multiply the amount of fiber by 4 to get an estimation of the actual amount of plant matter.

So the proportion of plant matter to organ meat is 1 - 2 teaspoons of plant matter per 1 cup (1/2 lb) of meat? Does that seem right?

I don't see how that can provide more than 20 IU vitamin E in a best-case scenario.

I guess that the plant matter in tripe provides greater variety of lactic acid bacteria. Is this truly beneficial? 

Connie - there was a thread a LONG time ago about "how much lactic acid bacteria survives the stomach to colonize in the intestines" Do you remember the general conclusion of the thread? I know it has been studied in at least one brand of kibble and was determined to survive, but I do not remember in what quantity.


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## Anne Vaini

Is the Vitamin E depleting affect specific to Salmon Oil or common to all sources of omega-3s?

I'm not seeing a way to include high enough levels of Vitami E in the diet to avoid a supplement.

Connie - you give 100IU vit E per 10 lb body weight, correct? How did you determine that dose?

Humans are not recommended to go over 400IU per day (granted we probably aren't getting the omega-3's either). Is 400IU for a 35 lb dog overkill?

http://www.collargirl.com/vitamin-E.html


> According to one site on vitamine E and dogs, anywhere from 2.6 to 3 IU per day is appropriate. This would mean a 25 pound dog could receive 75 IU per day, a 50lb dog 150 IU per day, etc. But the average serving of Science Diet Advanced Protection contains 700IU of vitamin E, indicating that for the kind of results their food is producing, a much higher dose would be appropriate.


I wish I knew what site recommended 2.6 to 3 IU per day - for what size dog, and with or without omega-3's?

http://www.netpets.com/cats/reference/food/vitamine.html


> Manufacturers of dry pet foods add antioxidants to their pet foods to extent shelf life and prevent spoilage. ... Some pet food manufacturers are now using antioxidants such as vitamin E (alpha tocopherol) and vitamin C (ascorbic acid and/or sodium ascobate) to preserve the fats in their dry pet foods and are calling these products "Natural Cat or Dog Food".


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## Anne Vaini

Looking at the ingedients of premixed supplements:

For medium (30-60 lbs) dogs ( per 1100mg capsule); EPA (180mg), DHA (120mg), Vitamin A (1250 IU), Vitamin D# (125 IU), Vitamin E (75 IU).

300mg omega 3 : 50mg vit E

How much salmon oil are you giving your dogs? I am giving my 35 lb dog 2 large capsules - probably 2000 mg. I was thinking 2 squirts of a bottle of Grizzly's Salmon Oil... 2 teaspoons or so?

So 333 mg of _synthetic_ Vitamin E is 333 IU. I guess the proportion is correct for the amount of salmon oil I am giving?

Am I going overboard on the salmon oil?


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## Connie Sutherland

_"For medium (30-60 lbs) dogs ( per 1100mg capsule); EPA (180mg), DHA (120mg), Vitamin A (1250 IU), Vitamin D# (125 IU), Vitamin E (75 IU)"._


Are you looking at fish LIVER oil?


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## Connie Sutherland

_"How much salmon oil are you giving your dogs? I am giving my 35 lb dog 2 large capsules - probably 2000 mg. I was thinking 2 squirts of a bottle of Grizzly's Salmon Oil... 2 teaspoons or so?"_

I'm giving a gram of fish oil (NOT fish live oil!) per ten pounds. I have no idea what "large capsules" means. :lol: If it means 1200 mg then three of them for that weight would be about what I would give.

2 teaspoons is more like 9.5 grams.


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## Connie Sutherland

_"Connie - you give 100IU vit E per 10 lb body weight, correct? How did you determine that dose?"_

I didn't.

For one thing, Vitamin E doesn't generally come in anything like that kind of IU variety gelcaps. It's not even easy to find the 100 IU size.


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## Lynn Cheffins

good read on vit E supplementation
http://www.iditarod.com/learn/vet-11.html


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## Connie Sutherland

_"I wish I knew what site recommended 2.6 to 3 IU per day - for what size dog, and with or without omega-3's?"_


So do I.


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## Anne Vaini

Lynn Cheffins said:


> good read on vit E supplementation
> http://www.iditarod.com/learn/vet-11.html


Thank you!



> Current recommended dietary allowances for vitamin E in dogs is 20 IU per kilogram of a typical diet.(1) ... (1) National Research Council (U.S.) 1985. Subcommittee on Dog Nutrition. Nutrient requirements of dogs. © 1997





> This recommendation is based on studies in non-exercising dogs consuming a normal diet (20-30% of calories from fat). This recommendation level of vitamin E may not be enough for the sled dog. ... We recommend that each exercising sled dog be supplemented with 400 IU per day over what they are currently receiving in their normal diet.


I feed 1 to 1.5 lb which is 0.45 to 0.68 kg. Not accounting for vitamin e levels to balance out depletion caused by adding fat to the diet, 9 to 13.6 IU vitamin E would be appropriate. 

That isn't a problem to get into the diet (see previous posts).

What alternatives are there to salmon oil? Or is adding any fat going to require more vitamin E?

If I feed skinless meat (to reduce fat) and replace the fat with salmon oil, do I need to increase the amount of vitamin E?


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## Connie Sutherland

_"What alternatives are there to salmon oil? Or is adding any fat going to require more vitamin E?"_



Any oil.

It's the PUFAs that present the need for extra E.


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## Anne Vaini

Have you guys seen this before?!

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=15&page=R1

I can't wait to sit down and read it!


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## Anne Vaini

Alright, so now I know that the amount of vitamin E is determined by the amount of fat in the dog's diet. So I've been looking into this. From the link posted above - an interesting tidbid about fat in the diet of a sport/performance/working dog:



> The concentration of fat in the diet may affect work performance of dogs. Fatty acids are the primary source of energy for skeletal muscle during exhaustive exercise (Therriault et al., 1973). When adult Beagles that had been maintained in a high state of physical conditioning and had been fed a cereal-based diet with 7 percent fat were fasted for 5 days, their endurance capacity increased by 74 percent relative to their endurance in the fed state (Young, 1959). It was concluded that this improvement in work performance was mediated by an enhanced ability to mobilize body fat. Consumption of a high-fat diet rather than a high-carbohydrate diet has been shown to lengthen the time to exhaustion of Beagles on a treadmill by approximately 30 percent (Downey et al., 1980) and to cause a greater elevation in plasma-free fatty acid concentration during exercise of sled dogs (Hammel et al., 1977).


That confirms what I already know to be true.



> It is recommended that a dog food contain at least 5 percent fat on a dry basis, including 1 percent of the diet as linoleic acid. Because not all fats are rich in linoleic acid (Table 6), supplemental fats must be chosen judiciously when total fat is limited to 5 percent. Although these concentrations appear sufficient for normal physiological functions, higher concentrations of fat may be desirable in practical dog foods to enhance acceptability and to improve hair coat sheen. If such increases are made, the concentrations of other nutrients should be appropriately increased to maintain a satisfactory nutrient-to-energy ratio, i.e., when substantial fat supplementation is implemented, total dietary reformulation is in order to prevent nutrient imbalances from occurring.


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## Anne Vaini

No need to reinvent the wheel here:

Estimated Minimal Requirement of Vitamin E Needed to Compensate for the Elevated Vitamin Demand Caused by Some Common Unsaturated Fatty Acids

http://books.google.com/books?id=aq...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA208,M1


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## Lynn Cheffins

Hi Anne - check your pm's....


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## Anne Vaini

A good article on nutrition for performance/sport/working dogs:

http://www.sportsvet.com/Art3.html

Tidbits:



> Dietary omega-6 : omega-3 fatty acid ratios between 5:1 and 10:1 are optimum





> [Vitamin E] acts to maintain cell membrane stability, which is very important in dogs that use their olfactory senses, i.e. pointing breeds, detector dogs, and search and rescue dogs.


I hadn't heard of that before. Interesting...



> Sprint athletes utilize the one enzyme system and the glycolytic energy system. The duration of their activity does not last long enough to access energy from the oxidative energy system. Their base diet should include a high percentage of carbohydrates and protein. Some of these diets are currently manufactured or carbohydrate sources can be added to a traditional high protein diet. If the competition involves many repetitive sprints or activities the body will at some point begin using energy from the oxidative system. In these cases a better diet would include a balance of carbohydrates, protein, and fat energy sources. The increase in fat content would provide energy for the later activities.
> 
> Endurance athletes are much more dependent upon the oxidative energy systems. These athletes would benefit from a higher percentage of fat in their diet. Some manufactured diets are balanced in this way or a fat based supplement can be added to their normal diet. When the body is burning fat for its energy source it delays muscle glycogen depletion. This action then delays the deleterious effects of fatigue. It has also been shown that burning fat is metabolically cooler than burning protein. Minimizing the increase in body temperature would be beneficial to dogs working in endurance events. This is especially true for dogs working in warmer environments.


That explains why I found good results feeding my two stunt dogs totally different diets. The disc dog was an endurance athlete and REQUIRED high fat diet. The stunt dog did "sprint" activities and did better with some carb in the diet. I wondered why the difference... now I have a good idea why!

I haven't decided what I will train Emma in this season - but a good chance that it will be repetitive sprint. So I should be on the right track but need to go back and re-think carbs.

I had to backtrack - I was getting ahead of myself.


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## Anne Vaini

> The maintenance energy requirement (MER) is defined as the energy used by a moderately active adult dog in a thermoneutral environment (MER=30 kcal/# for a 50+ pound dog).


Emma requires 1.17xMER when inactive, and 1.95xMER when active. (I figured this out from the amount of kibble she requires to maintain her body weight and the kcal/cup of the kibble.) I won't be working her every day, so I'll pick a number inbetween and feed for 1.56xMER. 

Emma needs 1638 kcal/day.

Carbohydrates have an energy yield of 3.5 kcal per gram. 
Protein has an energy yield of 3.5 kcal per gram. 
Fat has an energy yield of 8.5 kcal per gram.

The food she has been on is 30% protein, 19% fat. She has been doing fine, so I'll can start with it as a frame of reference.

491.4 kcal from protein = 140 grams protein
311.22 kcal from fat = 37 grams fat

2 chicken backs with skin (396 g, bone removed, 44% bone) have 1263 kcal, with 113 g fat (960.5 kcal) and 55.64 g protein (194.74). hmm... 

2 chicken backs NO skin (204 g, bone removed, 44% bone) have 279 kcal, with 12.08 g fat (102.68 kcal), and 39.9 g protein (139.65 kcal). 

I don't think the backs that were analyzed were very meaty. 44% bone, 10% skin, 17% sep fat ...

Chicken leg (400 g (0.88 lb), bone removed, 27% bone) is 408 kcal, with 15.24 g fat (129.54 kcal), and 80.52 g protein (281.82 kcal).

Hmmm... I think not. That would mean that a 35 lb dog would be eating 3.5 lb raw per day? Previous experience tells me it should be more like 1.5 - 1.75 lb per day for this individual dog. Maybe she isn't eating as much kibble as I estimated and her energy requirement is lower?


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## Anne Vaini

If I go strictly off the bag's recommendations for feeding, that would give the same energy as 1.5 lb raw for inactivity, and if 1.56xMER is correct, then approx 2.5 raw for sporting/working. Now I need to experiment for a little while and figure out how much that little dog needs to eat. :lol:


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## Lynn Cheffins

this has some interesting stuff
http://www.authorstream.com/present...t-nutrtion-science-technology-ppt-powerpoint/


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## Anne Vaini

Lynn, what do you feed in winter?


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## Lynn Cheffins

part 2 http://www.authorstream.com/Present...y-medicine-science-technology-ppt-powerpoint/

part 3 http://www.authorstream.com/Present...cine-sport-science-technology-ppt-powerpoint/

part 4 http://www.authorstream.com/Present...y-medicine-science-technology-ppt-powerpoint/

lots of good info in these


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## Lynn Cheffins

Anne Vaini said:


> Lynn, what do you feed in winter?


I feed a meat mix that is a beef/salmon/chicken/liver/tripe/egg blend and add herring oil, vitamin E, psyllium,kelp, alafalfa, ground flax, DE,spirulina and a couple other things. I have all the #'s worked out for my basic diet mix but they are in the house (and I am in the workshop playing hooky at the moment :-D)
I can add additional fat depending on where we are training wise and condition of dogs.
I use additional beef and ground chicken(bone in) or a bit of liver for watering and usually snack with fish or whatever else I have lying around in the freezer (beaver,venison)
I am doing events of 20 - 60 miles (mid distance) and this works well for my dogs (siberians and older style alaskans) but someone who is doing sprints or distance and running different dogs (houndier) will probably feed differently.


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## Anne Vaini

Why do you include psyllium?

Do you think DE is more effective intermally? I use it in my dog yard. I wouldn't mind reducing how much wormer I use, if it really is effective.


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## Lynn Cheffins

psyllium helps to prevent stress diarrhea thru several means

I don't even know if the the DE works as a wormer but it does function like other clay type additives and contains some micro-minerals - I've added it for years and I think it works so in the diet it stays  .....


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## Anne Vaini

Lynn Cheffins said:


> psyllium helps to prevent stress diarrhea thru several means.


This is new to me. Any handy information available for that? Is it similar to using pumpkin? better? worse? different?


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## Anne Vaini

I had to look into that a little bit more. I don't think it is an issue I will run into since I'm doing sprint activities with long enough breaks in between for her to entirely digest a meal.

While looking into it, I found a little more information about the vitamin E topic which was addressed earlier in this thread.



> One study of 24 healthy sled dogs evaluated the effect of repetitive endurance exercise on antioxidants. The study involved randomly placing dogs in either an exercise group that completed a 58 kilometer (35.96-mile) run on three consecutive days or in a control group that was housed in a kennel. “We found decreases in blood vitamin E concentration in the exercise group, “says Kenneth Hinchcliff B.V.Sc., Ph.D. professor of clinical sciences at the Ohio State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine. “This relates to a decrease in antioxidant capacity and an increase in fat peroxidation. It also can be an early indicator of skeletal muscle damage.”


http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/beaglehealth_canineperformancestress.htm


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## Lynn Cheffins

Anne Vaini said:


> This is new to me. Any handy information available for that? Is it similar to using pumpkin? better? worse? different?


it is supposed to create a condition in the intestine that supports the good bacteria and is less favourable to the bad ones. You can get large tubs of psyllium at most horse supply places or at health food store for smaller amounts. Make sure it has no sugar or sugar subsitute sweeteners in it if you use Metamucil or something like it. I use 1/2 tsp per dog mixed in the feed year round.


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## Meena Moitra

I am no raw expert at all...
Out of convenience I give a dollop of plain Brown Cow whole milk yogurt daily. Done with all the fancy probiotics.
As for veg: I don't have a grinder so I cook dog veg. If the Chinese have survuved a 5000 yr tradition of cooking food, so will my dogs. As for E, I do fish oil but the main fat I add organic grape seed oil as I read it's good.
I mix up the food a lot and the dogs seem happy and healthy. It's been 8 years now...


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## Anne Vaini

Alright. Starting over...

Going for 1120 kcal per day, leaves us with her needing 25 grams of fat. and 96 g protein (using the 30% protein, 19% fat ratio)

Using chicken leg quarter as a base meat, she would be getting 32 grams of fat. Using the higher omega 6 : omega 3 ratio (10:1), that leaves her needing 3.2g of that fat to be in the form of omega 3's. The chicken only supplies 1.134 of that, leaving need for 1.86 g omega 3 from supplements. 

That would take 5.4 g (slightly more than a teaspoon, or about 2-1/2 large capsules. I'd go with 3 for ease).

Apparently 10 IU Vitamin E is required per gram of salmon oil, but it bugs me that I don't have a source for this information. So puppers needs 60 IU vitamin E per day. Converting IU to mg (d-alpha tocopherol) is X 1.49, leaving us needing 80.46 mg of vitamin E per day.

So.... I will increase the amount of salmon oil from 4 grams to 6 grams, and use 200 IU vitamin E (unless I magically find 100 IU capsules).

A lot of work to find out basically nothing. :lol:

So how do wild dogs / wolves make it work? Are maggots and micro-prey magically rich in vitamin E or something? Or do they degenerate more quickly from free-radical activity? Or is the diet lower in omega 3's therfore using less vitamin E? Or did we breed the domestic dog to be so completely incapable of surviving without human assistance? What gives?


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## Anne Vaini

How much salmon does it take to make a gram of salmon oil?


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## Michael Wise

Anne Vaini said:


> (unless I magically find 100 IU capsules)................
> So how do wild dogs / wolves make it work? Are maggots and micro-prey magically rich in vitamin E or something? Or do they degenerate more quickly from free-radical activity? Or is the diet lower in omega 3's therfore using less vitamin E? Or did we breed the domestic dog to be so completely incapable of surviving without human assistance? What gives?


I have to order 100 IU online.

I wonder if naturally pastured animals also contain more vitamin e in their fat stores?

How much vit. E is in O3 rich brains and eyeballs?


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## Michael Wise

Anne Vaini said:


> So how do wild dogs / wolves make it work? Are maggots and micro-prey magically rich in vitamin E or something? Or do they degenerate more quickly from free-radical activity? Or is the diet lower in omega 3's therfore using less vitamin E? Or did we breed the domestic dog to be so completely incapable of surviving without human assistance? What gives?


I'm not the greatest Google-er in the world, so the search terms could probably be made simpler/better.

Google-ing "omega 3 naturally pastured" or even "omega 3 vitamin E naturally pastured" turns up several results stating more omega 3 AND vitamin E in naturally pastured animals. Up to 4 and 5 times of each depending on food quality and types of forage.


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## Anne Vaini

I tried to figure that again and completely lost myself. My last post is probably not correct. 

ETA. Umm... can I delete that last one? :lol:

I used raw _skinless_ chicken leg, which is pointless, because I am def not going to skin her meat! That changes the fat significantly. 

Secondly I estimated rather than *actually counting*  and was way off on the omega-6 : omega-3.


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## Anne Vaini

1.75 lb skin-on chicken leg quarters (I massaged some numbers and used a differnt kcal per day number this time around...) contain 72.72 g fat. 15.9 g of that are PUFAs which would affect vitamin E. Of the PUFAs, we have 14.04g omega-6 to 1.5g omega-3.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

This omega-6 to omega-3 ratio falls within the ideal ratio as recommended by Robert L. Gillette, DVM, MSE.

So ... is supplementing with salmon oil necessary for dogs not involved in endurance activities? If we're not adding PUFAs, then no reason to add Vit E, right?

I haven't gotten to the butcher on kill day, so I'm out of raw and feeding kibble again at the moment. When I go back to raw, I'm going to give it a try WITHOUT the salmon oil and vit E and see what happens.

2 stupid mistakes - completely different answers. I hope someone double-checks me! :lol:


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## Anne Vaini

> So how do wild dogs / wolves make it work? Are maggots and micro-prey magically rich in vitamin E or something? Or do they degenerate more quickly from free-radical activity? Or is the diet lower in omega 3's therfore using less vitamin E? Or did we breed the domestic dog to be so completely incapable of surviving without human assistance? What gives?


I learned a few things today.

Fish do not produce omega-3. They "collect" it from microalgae. This is why fish at the top of the food chain have more omega-3.

It takes 600,000 tons of salmon oil to produce 48,600 tons of salmon oil. This translates as a dog would need to eat 111 grams (1/4 lb) of salmon to get 9 grams of salmon oil.

In the previous raw diet thread, there was some discussion about microprey as part of a true prey model diet. 

How about microalgae? How much omega-3 can a dog get just by drinking water containing microalgae? I would consider culturing algae for my dog. :lol: (I was serious)


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Tell me about green tripe as compared to raw chicken. I give each of the dogs about 1/2 lb of raw chicken legs and thighs a day or about 10 lbs dailey. They also have their kibble. What do they get with one they don't get with the other where tripe and chicken are concerned. They also get all the bones that come in the chicken.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Don Turnipseed said:


> Tell me about green tripe as compared to raw chicken. I give each of the dogs about 1/2 lb of raw chicken legs and thighs a day or about 10 lbs dailey. They also have their kibble. What do they get with one they don't get with the other where tripe and chicken are concerned. They also get all the bones that come in the chicken.


I didn't find a whole lot of nutritional data on the tripe, but I did post it either earlier on this thread or on the "Thinking aloud about Prey Model.." thread. (the link to that one is at the beginning of this thread.)

Green tripe is an organ meat and a plant matter source. Some people feed it as an entire meal and allow the diet to balance out over time. I think I'll save it for when I have "bony" meat and feed 1/2 tripe and 1/2 bony meat.


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## Don Turnipseed

Thanx Anne. I will look for the info when I get back today. I have been looking at different veggies that would be easy to feed at the same time as the chicken and so far, a couple of cooked brussel sprouts with the chicken looks to be good for folic acid and vitamine c. Just looking for things to vary the diet that I can hand feed to each dog dailey to avoid the wars encountered when it is just thrown over the fence to them. Green tripe, if readily available may be a good addition.


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## Anne Vaini

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have been looking at different veggies that would be easy to feed at the same time as the chicken and so far, a couple of cooked brussel sprouts with the chicken looks to be good for folic acid and vitamine c.


Vitamin C is not a vitamin for dogs. It is unecessary except for a couple 
situations - I think liver damage is one, but I don't remember exactly. 

How about cooking some carrots as an easy veggie that you can hand-feed?


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## Don Turnipseed

Anne, concerning vitamine c. Part 1

Roughly one in four hunting-dog pups become victims of hip dysplasia. Some of these dogs suffer a lifetime of crippling pain. Others are destroyed. But it is now a virtual certainty that if you take some preventive measures, your pup will not get hip dysplasia. Is that a strong statement? Read on, and judge for yourself.

Scurvy and Hip Dysplasia 
San Jose, California veterinarian Dr. Wendell O. Belfield was visiting a friend. On the TABLE was a reprinted copy of the 1753 book, "A Treatise On Scurvy", by Captain James Lind, a surgeon in the British Royal Navy. While waiting for his friend, Dr. Belfield began reading. The symptoms described were: bleeding gums, loose teeth, foul breath, nose bleeds, swollen eyelids, brittle bones…And then came an autopsy report made in 1699 at St. Louis Hospital, Paris: "The ligaments of the joints were corroded and loose. Instead of finding in the cavities of the joints the usual sweet oil mucilage, there was only a greenish liquor, which by its caustic quality had corroded the ligaments." Recognition flashed across Dr. Belfield's mind. This 300-year-old autopsy of a dead human being described hip dysplasia in dogs. Could chronic hip dysplasia be a form of scurvy? Simply a lack of vitamin C? No, it's accepted that a dog's body makes its own vitamin C. Everybody knows that. Canine hip dysplasia is hereditary. Everybody knows that, too. 
But why does everybody know that dogs don't need extra vitamin C? Because back in the 1930s, some dogs in testing laboratories suffered no ill effects when denied all vitamin C in their diets. We can't help but observe, however, that very little happens in the controlled environment of an experimental laboratory that would cause dogs to need more C than its body can manufacture. In the real world a dogsled racer brought a bitch to Dr. Belfield after other vets in the San Francisco area had failed to help her. She had a swollen tongue, bleeding gums, and often fell and dragged herself about with great difficulty. 
Dr. Belfield recognized the trouble as scurvy, although not the true clinical scurvy that brings death to humans. The dog was making enough C to keep the scurvy on a chronic subclinical level. After a month on ascorbic acid (another name for vitamin C - simply meaning NOT HAVING scurvy), the bitch could run as long and hard as any dog on the client's team. Why didn't other members of the racing team have scurvy? They had been eating the same food. This happened because of another factor usually ignored by those who believe that dogs never need more C than their bodies make. In one GROUP of 104 dogs tested, vitamin C levels varied FROM .02 milligrams per cubic centimeter of blood to .84 milligrams - a 42 fold variable! Obviously, one dog's body can be starving for C while another dog makes enough to get by. 
This variability also leads us to the heredity factor. Breeding programs to eliminate CDH have worked to a certain degree. For instance, the Wirehaired pointing Griffon breeders eliminated half of the problem in just ten years through selective breeding. But no breeding program has come close to being 100% effective. If we assume that Dr. Belfield is right in believing that hip dysplasia is connected to a vitamin C deficiency, it all begins to make sense. The variable ability to make ascorbic acid is certainly inheritable. While selecting parents for lack of hip dysplasia in the heredity, we may have unknowingly selected for the real factor that inhibits CHD - good vitamin C production. 
Nature and Nurture 
It seems clear, however, that all CHD is not entirely genetic. Selective breeding has been too inconsistently successful to believe otherwise. Dr. Belfield says that he constantly sees sound parents. A Swedish doctor who x-rayed army dogs concluded that dysplastic dogs produce only ten percent more dysplastic pups than normal dogs. But again, if we accept Dr. Belfield's vitamin C theory, it all makes sense. 
Vitamin C does 300 different jobs in the bodies of animals, including humans. One of the most important is collagen production. If you think of cells as bricks, collagen would be the mortar. Without enough collagen, you can't build muscle tissue. You can't build bone, either, because collagen forms the honeycomb holding the minerals in place in bones. Furthermore, it's possible to have not quite enough vitamin C to manufacture quality collagen. Weak collagen builds weak muscles and bones.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Part II

Related Article - Vitamin C Cures Hip Dysplasia 
A second function of ascorbic acid is to cope with the effects of stress. It does this by nourishing the adrenal glands and by helping the body produce its own cortisone, which combats histamines produced by dying cells. A rat can multiply its vitamin C output tenfold when stressed. Humans can't make any at all, much less increase it, so we must eat all that our bodies need or supplement our diets. Apparently, our ancestors ate huge amounts of fruit containing vitamin C, so unlike most animals, our livers didn't develop the ability to turn glucose INTO ascorbic acid. Dogs are poor producers. A goat can make five times the vitamin C produced by a dog of equal size. A rat, small as it is, makes nearly four times the vitamin C produced by a full-grown dog. 
I hate the term "conventional wisdom." Too often, it means believing what everybody else believes, no matter how foolish, for fear of being ridiculed. But in this case, the definition is accurate. Conventional wisdom has it that dogs need no more vitamin C than their bodies make. Dr. Belfield asks why, if that is the case, do dogs or wild canines, when left to their own devices, act like they need more? When possible, canines do eat fruits, berries and vegetation containing vitamin C. 
In my experience, there are two times when dogs eat large amounts of grass and other available vegetation. One is when they've run long and hard, and there's no water to be found. At such times, they chew and swallow vegetation for the moisture. The other time is when they've been kenneled too long. Even some hard-running bird dogs and hounds often stop and eat green vegetation before taking off to hunt. We've always wondered why. We even thought up several explanations, but they didn't ring true. Could this simply be caused by a need of additional vitamin C? 
Keep in mind that there is no extra vitamin C in most commercial dog foods. That's not a criticism, either. Ascorbic acid oxidizes rapidly when the lid is off the container. It probably would oxidize rapidly as a minor ingredient in a large bag of food. Also the high heat during the extruding process would probably destroy most of the vitamin C added to the food. One manufacturer that does add ascorbic acid makes no claims for its benefits, nor is the amount specified or guaranteed to be in the bag. 
To sum up so far, our dog is a poor producer of vitamin C, there is no extra C in his usual food, and like us, he needs far more in proportion to size than we do to achieve normal growth. While our growth is stretched out over two decades, most of theirs takes place during the first year. The bigger the breed or strain, the more rapid the growth, and the greater the demand for ascorbic acid, the greater the incidence of hip dysplasia. Dr. Belfield suggests that we should also consider the stress assault on a domesticated pup. It's weaned, separated FROM its mother and littermates, involuntarily carried to a new and unfamiliar location, stuck with needles, mildly poisoned to eliminate worms, and possibly operated on to remove dewclaws or part of the tail. All of this happens while the animal is already stressed by teething and phenomenal growth. The growth factor induces a very high demand for ascorbic acid through additional stress and the massive need for collagen. 
The wild canine pup, by contrast, stays with its mother, keeps its tail and dewclaws, suffers no early separation, is not hurt by hypodermic needles, and has not been bred overlarge by foolish humans. Diseases and worms are its stresses. But the wild pup does get extra vitamin C FROM the livers of animals the mother kills, some green vegetation, and sometimes FROM fruits and berries. The domestic pup gets none because we have decided that he doesn't need any. 
Our pup - in a condition perhaps bordering on subclinical scurvy - runs, plays and jumps with muscles and bones weak FROM lack of quality collagen. Muscle growth may not be keeping pace with bone growth. The pectineus muscles become taut. Suddenly, during one great leap or unusual jolt, the weak muscles fail, and the balls of the leg bones are pulled away FROM the hip sockets. The lubricating synovial fluid leaks out, and the balls grate on the sockets. In hours, maybe less, the dog has hip dysplasia. It will not recover. 
The Solution 
Dr Belfield thought that the solution was obvious. Prevent hip dysplasia by supplying enough vitamin C. He tried it with several litters of German Shepherd pups, a breed with serious CHD problems. The parents either had hip dysplasia themselves or they had already produced dysplastic pups. 
The first bitch had very bad hips, and according to Seeing Eye dog standards, should have been neutered to prevent damaging pregnancy. Dr. Belfield gave her 2,000 milligrams (2 grams) of C daily as soon as she was pregnant. Eight pups were born, and they were given 50 to 100 milligrams of liquid C FROM birth until weaned. FROM that point to four months, 550 milligrams of powdered C were added to their food. This was increased to 1,000 milligrams, then 2,000 until the pups were 18 to 24 months old. None of the pups were dysplastic. 
Another bitch had been bred twice to different studs that were certified free of CHD. Each time, half of her pups were dysplastic. She was bred again and vitamin C was administered under Dr. Belfield's guidance. She produced eleven pups with perfect hips. In all, eight litters were handled in this manner over a five-year period. When x-rayed at two years of age, all pups were free of CHD. 
The testing ended in 1976, and as far as Dr. Belfield was concerned, the CHD threat was defeated. He published a paper in a professional journal. Was it truly over? Hardly. Dr. Belfield had attacked the popular genetic theory that everyone "knew." Instead of simply trying the treatment and finding out for themselves, most of the professionals ridiculed Dr. Belfield for not conducting a better experiment with double blinds (some dogs not given C). He was even called a crook and a charlatan. 
"That really hurt," Dr. Belfield told me. "I'm just a little one-man practitioner who looked for better ways when conventional means weren't working. Proof is up to the universities. I really want to help these animals, not wait around for further proof while the dogs suffer." 
Those are my sentiments exactly. Dr. Belfield has since upped the dosage of C somewhat and has combined it with other vitamins and minerals. He also mixed some with Ester-C. I'm currently testing both mixtures on hard-running Fox Hounds. 
Whatever you do, if you're raising a litter, provide the needed vitamin C. If you're buying a pup, put it on the C the moment you take it home. There's no sense risking hip dysplasia just because absolute proof hasn't yet been established or seriously attempted. 
Related Article - Vitamin C Cures Hip Dysplasia 
**Reprinted FROM "Outdoor Life".


----------



## Anne Vaini

Interesting. I can see some problems with the data. Where can I find more information on this?


----------



## Anne Vaini

http://workingdogs.com/doc0039.htm



> But in 1994, veterinarian L. Philips Brown presented the results of scientifically acceptable "double-blind crossover" study on the effects of Vitamin C to a national conference on holistic veterinary medicine. Brown, the owner of the largest veterinary hospital on Cape Code for 22 years, tested Vitamin C on 50 dogs with serious joint problems. The dogs were among a population of more than 500 canines at a large animal sanctuary in Utah. It should be noted here that representatives of Inter-Cal, makers of Ester-C, specifically asked Brown to study the vitamin because they felt it could have a major role in the treatment of joint abnormalities. Dave Stenmoe, one of the representatives of the manufacturer, says "We told [Brown] not to take our word for anything." Just to keep an open mind and conduct a scientific comparison of Ester-C, ordinary Vitamin C, and a placebo. He finally agreed to do it.
> 
> Brown, along with the Utah sanctuary's resident veterinarian, hand-picked the dogs with the worst cases of joint disease and placed them in five groups.
> 
> After four weeks of testing, the supplements were withdrawn for three weeks. Then, each dog was crossed over to a different group and received another supplement for another four weeks. After yet another three-week layoff, 60 percent of the dogs were switched to a third supplement. The remaining 40 percent went back to whatever they were given during the first four weeks. At the end, mobility scores were calculated to determine the average for each of the five groups.
> 
> The results were impressively in favor of Ester-C therapy. Seventy-eight percent of the dogs on 2,000mg of Ester-C experienced improved mobility within four or five days. The average improvement score was 1.52. About 60 percent of the improved dogs relapsed when Ester-C was discontinued, but the group that returned to Ester-C in the third phase then regained mobility. Handlers reported no negative side effects.
> 
> On the low (850mg) dose of Ester-C, only 52 percent of the dogs improved, with an average score of 0.45. Obviously, size of dose was important. Of dogs receiving 2,000mg of Ester-C with extra minerals, 62 percent improved by an average score of 0.87. Why Ester-C without extra minerals had better results remains unknown.
> 
> Ordinary Vitamin C improved 44 percent of the dogs, with a score of 0.67. As expected, no noticeable change occurred among dogs on the placebo.
> 
> Not even the most dyed-in-the-wool skeptic can ignore the results of such a double-blind crossover study. But the success of Vitamin C in treating CHD can still be questioned, or even denied, because X-rays show that the joints remain loose or arthritis remains. Even Brown confirms that X-rays taken for his study reveal defective skeletal structures even after the Ester-C treatment.


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## Anne Vaini

Anecdotal. A few interesting points. I copied most of the article over but the points worth noting IMO are bolded. Emphasis mine.

http://www.cyberpet.com/dogs/articles/health/vitc.htm



> ...
> 
> I have raised dogs under the prefix SKANSEN KENNEL for 50 years now. I have raised several working breeds like the German Shepherd and Rottweilers, as well as the Schnauzers. In all of these years, I have NEVER raised a clinically dysplastic dog. I’m quite sure the general public would have a difficult time believing this. Statistically, I certainly should have ended up with at least one or two out of the hundreds of dogs that I have raised. The fact is, I never have and have often wondered why I was so lucky, or what factor was present for me that wasn’t there for other people.
> 
> I have finally come to the conclusion that HIP DYSPLASIA is a result of poor nutrition and lack of many vitamins and minerals, including vitamin C. Almost all dogs in the US are raised on commercial dog food with no NATURAL VITAMIN C. True, the manufacturers add ascorbic acid, but this chemical form of Vitamin C just isn’t good enough. Your dog MUST get Vitamin C in his diet on a daily basis from a natural source, like fresh vegetables or raw milk or Vitamin C made from a VEGETABLE SOURCE—to keep his immune system in good shape as well as the collagen.
> 
> Our puppies get raw milk daily (not homogenized or pasteurized milk) and raw meat, raw carrots, and raw chicken necks. Just that little addition of fresh raw food evidently provides enough Vitamin C to make a difference.
> 
> *For many years I have recommended Vitamin C to my puppy buyers and they say they religiously give a big dose of Vitamin C daily, and still some dogs get Hip dysplasia. I had no explanation for this until recently. I learned from a top nutritionist in the US, Dr. Don Lawson, that 80% of the ascorbic acid ingested is flushed through the kidneys within two hours of taking it. In other words, the body cannot utilize chemical Vitamin C properly. However, if your dog is fed a natural diet, with fresh vegetables daily, some raw grated carrots and some cooked vegetables like potatoes, he can utilize the Vitamin C present and build proper COLLAGEN.*
> 
> What is COLLAGEN? Collagen is the substance that keeps your body together. Without collagen you and your dog would fall apart. COLLAGEN NEEDS VITAMIN C. A severe Vitamin C deficiency can cause scurvy, a disease which, has killed many sailors in the past. Typical signs of scurvy are loss of teeth and joints becoming loose just like in Hip dysplasia. To prevent scurvy, which is a very painful deficiency just like severe hip dysplasia sailors were told to eat lemons or limes daily to prevent the Vitamin C deficiency.
> 
> *Dogs manufacture some Vitamin C themselves, but obviously some do not manufacture enough. Like Dr. Earl D.V.M., I strongly believe that a HIGH REQUIREMENT for Vitamin C may be inherited, rather than the disorder itself. This should come as no surprise, as dogs are not allowed to breed by natural selection, but rather at the whim of the breeder.*
> 
> Since I am now aware that Vitamin C is the important factor in building collagen, I also feel this explains the many knee injures you see in large breeds today - after all, there is a lot of collagen in your kneecap.
> 
> *I have, of course, raised some dogs that did not clear OFA on the X-ray. In every case, these dogs had some form of virus when they were pups and were given antibiotics for an extended period of time. I am convinced that the antibiotics interfered with the Vitamin C absorption. *Had I known what I know today, I could have doubled the Vitamin C dose for these particular dogs, while they were on antibiotics. If you understand how damaging free radicals are and how lots more are released when taking antibiotics, you’ll understand why you should increase Vitamin C and also give Vitamin E.
> 
> So to be on the safe side, I recommend that every puppy buyer give natural food with some kind of vegetables daily. Also, I recommend that you give your pup at least one Vitamin C tablet in the morning and one tablet in the evening daily, of course only Vitamin C made for a VEGETABLE SOURCE. IF IT DOES NOT SAY this on the bottle, don’t buy it.
> 
> ...
> 
> Every time some one calls me and tells me about a dog they had for 14 years or more, I ask them what they fed their dog. It is always table scraps, apples, carrots, broccoli stems-all convincing me they got a diet rich in NATURAL VITAMIN C. Also ranch and farm dogs are seldom known to get hip dysplasia. As you know, dogs will eat horse and cow manure with gusto, I’m convinced they know they need the digested grass or alfalfa, probably a very high source of natural C. Every day, when I take my dogs for a walk on the ranch, they seem to find it.
> 
> ...
> 
> My personal opinion, after 50 years of breeding large breeds of dog, is that hip dysplasia is not a genetic factor. In fact, the well know Wendell O. Bellfield, D.V.M. says, “canine hip dysplasia is a NUTRITIONAL and BIOCHEMICAL imbalance.” He continues to say “the concept that the key to the disease lies in genetics has failed miserable. The “experts” have failed to prove the existence of a gene that causes hip dysplasia; they have also failed to determine the action of the alleged gene.” It is possible that some lines are more predisposed to arthritis, but if fed correctly with raw meat and raw vegetables, you will never see the manifestation of clinical hip dysplasia.
> 
> ...


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## Anne Vaini

The pathogenesis and diagnosis of canine
hip dysplasia: A review-
Cindy L. Fries, Audrey M. Remedios

Published in the Canadian Veterinary Journal, 1995

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1687006&blobtype=pdf

In abstract:


> High dose vitamin C supplementation in
> growing puppies does not prevent hip dysplasia, and
> this practice should be discontinued.


In article:


> Vitamin C is necessary for collagen synthesis, but
> dogs do not have a dietary requirement, as they synthesize
> sufficient amounts. Feeding high doses of vitamin
> C to pregnant bitches and their offspring until 2 y
> of age was reported to eliminate hip dysplasia (41),
> but lack of radiographic evaluation and follow-up, and
> inability to reproduce the results in controlled clinical
> trials (42), make these results questionable. Other studies
> show that excess vitamin C in puppies causes hypercalcemia
> and may delay bone remodeling and cartilage
> maturation (8,43). There is no scientific evidence
> that supplementing the diet of growing puppies with high
> doses of vitamin C prevents hip dysplasia. As this practice
> is potentially harmful, it should be discontinued.


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## Don Turnipseed

Interesting articles for sure Anne. This is also why I am, going to opt for a couple of cooked brussel sprouts daily. First, it is natural vit. c anmd it is a simple matter to hand them out. I already toss carrots out to them raw.


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## Anne Vaini

Today was kill day at the butcher. I brought home an omasum for the pooch. I couldn't bring myself to feed it "green." I hosed it out thoroughy, cut it into approx 1/4 lb chunks and washed it again before freezing.

Added a beef skull to the freezer. I haven't fed skulls before. Totally creeps me out - still has eyeballs!

4 cow lungs... that will last a while!

And two big cow feet/ankles - fur on - for recreational chews someday.

This is a huge step outside my comfort zone to feed something I can't analyze carefully. :lol: But it's so cheap and a great way to even out the other meat sources that are two bony. I paid about $0.07 per pound this time. The guys felt sorry for me with that omasum! :lol:

The regulations apparently are that once it goes into and "inedible" drum, they can't touch it. So I got the stuff very fresh (still warm), as the were butchering the thing. It was fascinating to watch. And I won't complain about the price of beef now that I've seen all the work and facilities required for processing it!


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## Anne Vaini

Don Turnipseed said:


> Interesting articles for sure Anne. This is also why I am, going to opt for a couple of cooked brussel sprouts daily. First, it is natural vit. c anmd it is a simple matter to hand them out. I already toss carrots out to them raw.


I would imagine it would be hard to overdose with naturally occurring sources of a vitamin... I don't think there is any harm in what you're doing! Thanks for mentioning the "theory" of vitamin C affecting HD. Very interesting!


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## Bob Scott

Don I think cooking the veggies will destroy most, if not all of the vitamin C. 
Uncooked veggies are very hard for a dog to digest (cellulose) unless they are puried in a blender. I've also read to stay away from the cabbage family of veggies. 
No doubt they enjoy the raw carrots but most of it probably isn't used in their systems because of the cellulose. 
Connie and others can give you lots more info on this. 
Ester C is also better then simple vitamine C.


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> Don I think cooking the veggies will destroy most, if not all of the vitamin C.
> Uncooked veggies are very hard for a dog to digest (cellulose) unless they are puried in a blender. I've also read to stay away from the cabbage family of veggies.
> No doubt they enjoy the raw carrots but most of it probably isn't used in their systems because of the cellulose.



Ditto. Raw carrots (pretty sugary, BTW, if cooked or processed and therefore digested) come out the same as they went in. :lol:

I give young soft low-cellulose produce (berries, summer squashes, parsley, etc.) and green tripe, and if I were worried about HD, or if I had an otherwise ailing dog, I'd give C in supplement form.


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## Don Turnipseed

Thanks everyone. I am going to have to study on this one a bit to fogure out what i can hand feed with no problem as I can't put food out for this many dogs in yard. The green tripe sounds like the best alternative but, what the heck is green tripe? I am assuming it is just uncooked tripe. Maybe.1/2 of a 500 mg Ester C tucked into the chicken thigh since they swollow them whole.


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## Anna Kasho

Don - "green" tripe refers to the raw unprocessed stuff with some plant matter still stuck inside, before it is cleaned and bleached to be sold for human consumption.


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## Michael Wise

Don Turnipseed said:


> what the heck is green tripe? I am assuming it is just uncooked tripe.


Yep.


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## Bob Scott

Don, don't forget to hold your nose when you feed the green tripe.
Well.......nevermind! You'll rember fast enough. :grin: :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland

Michael Wise said:


> Yep.




Hee hee hee.

You'll love it, Don.

You might go back to the C-tab tucked into the chicken piece.


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie Sutherland said:


> Hee hee hee.
> 
> You'll love it, Don.
> 
> You might go back to the C-tab tucked into the chicken piece.


You've never gutted bears and hogs eh Connie. Between the meat bees or the flys it gets pretty nasty. I love menudo, tripe, tripas, and such as long as I don't have to do the cooking. I am afraid this will ruin my taste for menudo


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am afraid this will ruin my taste for menudo


It might. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> You've never gutted bears and hogs eh Connie.


Why no, I haven't. How'd you know?


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## Anna Kasho

Don Turnipseed said:


> I love menudo, tripe, tripas, and such as long as I don't have to do the cooking. I am afraid this will ruin my taste for menudo


Eh, maybe, maybe not. After a while of handling various animal pieces, you just learn to dissociate. I did a bit of taxidermy and lots of museum study skins in college. After a while got so used to it I would eat lunch at the same table as my latest halfway skinned project, no problems. About the only thing that still gets to me is when the meat is juuuuust starting to spoil, when it starts smelling sweet, not yet rotten. The dogs have no problem with that, but I sure do...


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## Anne Vaini

Somewhere in one of these threads I mentioned including carbohydrates in the diet for sprint/strength canine athletes and expresseing concern about how it affects my concept of raw diet, and how to include it for irregluar physical conditioning patterns.

I was reading more into diets for sporting dogs and came across some statements that dogs should not be fed sugars within 4 hours of the activity. I looked into this more and was able to verify it is true, but an interesting additional piece of information - giving the sugars within 15 minutes of beginning the activity and periodically during endurance activity does not have the negative affect of giving sugars 15 minutes to 4 hours before the activity.

The is good news for me. Now I know that I don't need to be concerned with including carbs consistently for 4 - 6 weeks before conditioning. I should be able to offer the sugar just before beginning the activity. How much, and in what form is an different issue entirely, and I'll deal with that when I get to the topic.


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## Connie Sutherland

Do you know that dogs convert protein into immediate energy much faster than humans do? And that their systems use fat similarly to the way humans use complex carbs?

Simple carbs and soluble carbs are quickly converted to glucose, but in dogs, so is efficient protein.

I'm not convinced that the starchy carbs (which are pretty much a kibble-industry addition to the diet; starch is necessary to make kibble, whether it's grain or potatoes or whatever) are beneficial in the short or the long run to dogs, athletes or not.

Also, there are certain forms of carbs that are not digested well by any dogs, and others that might be maldigested because of the dog's naturally lower production of amylase, sucrase, lactase, maltase, and disaccharidase.

Maldigestion of carbs can be a factor in bloat, I believe, but also in chronic diarrhea and gut cramps.

I'm interested in the source that advises carbs for the canine athlete the way your post describes their use and what form they suggest.

I'm not saying that dogs can't digest carbs; in fact, certain carbs are natural to the diet of even wild canids. I don't think that carbs are particularly useful as an endurance-activity fuel for dogs, though.

Got any links?

P.S. Have you seen this? 
http://www.amazon.com/Small-Animal-Clinical-Nutrition-Michael/dp/0945837054/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I got this $100 (I think it was, new) book for less than a third of that price.

(I don't mean that it particularly addresses this issue; I just thought that it was a good book at a surprising price.)


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## Anne Vaini

Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you know that dogs convert protein into immediate energy much faster than humans do? And that their systems use fat similarly to the way humans use complex carbs?
> 
> Simple carbs and soluble carbs are quickly converted to glucose, but in dogs, so is efficient protein.
> 
> I'm not convinced that the starchy carbs (which are pretty much a kibble-industry addition to the diet; starch is necessary to make kibble, whether it's grain or potatoes or whatever) are beneficial in the short or the long run to dogs, athletes or not.
> 
> Also, there are certain forms of carbs that are not digested well by any dogs, and others that might be maldigested because of the dog's naturally lower production of amylase, sucrase, lactase, maltase, and disaccharidase.
> 
> Maldigestion of carbs can be a factor in bloat, I believe, but also in chronic diarrhea and gut cramps.
> 
> I'm interested in the source that advises carbs for the canine athlete the way your post describes their use and what form they suggest.
> 
> I'm not saying that dogs can't digest carbs; in fact, certain carbs are natural to the diet of even wild canids. I don't think that carbs are particularly useful as an endurance-activity fuel for dogs, though.
> 
> Got any links?
> 
> P.S. Have you seen this?
> http://www.amazon.com/Small-Animal-Clinical-Nutrition-Michael/dp/0945837054/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
> 
> I got this $100 (I think it was, new) book for less than a third of that price.
> 
> (I don't mean that it particularly addresses this issue; I just thought that it was a good book at a surprising price.)


I forget the amount, but the food item was honey in the diet of racing greyhounds. The source is an Australian greyhound hanidling guide. I chucked it because some of the ifo seemed not quite right and di not have citations.

The information regarding digestion of sugars pre-exercise is in the book you linked to, which I am currently reading. It's a good one... I haven't done any housework all week! 
:lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Can you give me the chapter or page?

I don't remember any mention at all of actually feeding simple sugars. (Or is it actually the conversion to glucose of other carb foods?)


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Vaini said:


> ... It's a good one... I haven't done any housework all week!
> :lol:


It is good. It's a decade old, but very little of it is outdated. I was very happy to get it for (I think it was) $27.


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## Anne Vaini

Connie Sutherland said:


> Can you give me the chapter or page?
> 
> I don't remember any mention at all of actually feeding simple sugars. (Or is it actually the conversion to glucose of other carb foods?)


I only noticed it because I showed the notes from the Australian greyhound racing thing to a vet because I was questioning some other info in it. He questioned the instructions to not give sugars within 4 hours of racing. That's why the section caught my attention.

I marked the page, so I can get you the page # (I don't have the book with me now.)

The most recent version is twice as thick... I want to get my hands on a copy!

I've found it helpful, and (call me crazy) fun to read. I've been able to find answers to many questions that have been on my mind for a few years.


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## Connie Sutherland

I thought the 4th edition WAS the most recent. There's a new one?


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## Anne Vaini

In the edition I have, it is on page (3-29) in the right column.


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## Anne Vaini

Emma's gums have become pale in the last 3 days. any ideas??

She has been on boney pork necks with chicken liver, beef lung (and attached tissue, which has included some diagphragm, quite a bit of connective tissue, trachea, lymph node, some heart tissue...) about 1/2 boney bone and 1/2 meat. Occassional egg, yogurt, etc...

The next meat coming out of the freezer is very meaty turkey leg pieces and following that we'll start into chicken necks/backs.

Should I change something else?


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## Bob Scott

Not to scare you but pale gums can be a sign of internal bleeding.


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## Anne Vaini

I was thinking about having some bloodwork done - this might be a good excuse. I had just cleaned her teeth and checked her over a couple days ago, so I am 100% sure this is recent.


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## Jennifer Coulter

I can't see the pale gums being related to the nutritional value of what you are feeding presently.

Like Bob, I would be worried about something else. Stools, appitite, energy all okay? Is this the same dog that had surgery when a bait bag was swallowed?

Do you have baseline bloodwork? Remember that some things like BUN levels can be elevated in raw fed dogs. As long as they are consistent over time and the dog is otherwise healthy, this inself is not a concern.


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## Anne Vaini

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I can't see the pale gums being related to the nutritional value of what you are feeding presently.
> 
> Like Bob, I would be worried about something else. Stools, appitite, energy all okay? Is this the same dog that had surgery when a bait bag was swallowed?
> 
> Do you have baseline bloodwork? Remember that some things like BUN levels can be elevated in raw fed dogs. As long as they are consistent over time and the dog is otherwise healthy, this inself is not a concern.


This is the bait-bag-eating dog.  :lol: 

No change in stool - the typical pale yellow dry raw dog crap. Energy is very high! Appetite is high - same as usual. No changes in behavior. The only thing different lately is a tooth that needs extracting, but it's not bleeding, so I don't know if it could have any effect.

I don't have baseline bloodwork. I don't remember if they did bloodwork for the bait-bag-removal surgery, but I think she was kibble-fed at that time anyway. I don't remember.


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## Anne Vaini

Mods - can you split these last few posts off into a new thread?


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## Edward Egan

Bob Scott said:


> Not to scare you but pale gums can be a sign of internal bleeding.


While this is true ,a more accurate definition would be: 

Pale gums are a sign of poor perfusion or hypoxia, which can be caused by shock (with additional signs such as lethargy, altered mental state, dialated slow responding pupils, hypothermia, weak and rapid pulse etc.) While hypoxia (low oxygen levels ) is a respiritory issue or inadequite or blocked (carbon monoxcide) oxygen carring mechanisum (hemoglobin) .
As a perfusion test, press lightly on the gum for 2 seconds, then release. It should appear pale compaired to the surounding tissues for only a second or less, same as if you press your finger nail down and release. If it remains pale longer than that you may have issues.


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## Anne Vaini

OMG! :lol: I think this proves that sleep-deprivation really does make people stupid (well, at least me). Emma is coming out of a heat cycle. She was bleeding pretty heavy for about 3 days, but seems to be just about done bleeding now. It must have been a bad moment when I looked at her gums. I checked her a few hours later and they were much pinker/almost normal.


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## Edward Egan

Anne Vaini said:


> OMG! :lol: I think this proves that sleep-deprivation really does make people stupid (well, at least me). Emma is coming out of a heat cycle. She was bleeding pretty heavy for about 3 days, but seems to be just about done bleeding now. It must have been a bad moment when I looked at her gums. I checked her a few hours later and they were much pinker/almost normal.


Well at least it wasn't nothing serious! Plus I got to brush the dust off my medical vocabulary!


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## Connie Sutherland

I'd watch carefully for 48 hours.

As Edward says, I would want to see continuous improvement. If I didn't, I would get the dog to the vet.


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'd watch carefully for 48 hours.
> 
> As Edward says, I would want to see continuous improvement. If I didn't, I would get the dog to the vet.



And any further posts on that topic can go into a new thread. 


Back to Raw Diet.


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## Rachel Miller

Anne Vaini said:


> The pathogenesis and diagnosis of canine
> hip dysplasia: A review-
> Cindy L. Fries, Audrey M. Remedios
> 
> Published in the Canadian Veterinary Journal, 1995
> 
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1687006&blobtype=pdf


I know I'm a few pages late but I just wanted to say thanks very much to Don and Anne for posting this information. I've never heard of the theory that sub-clincial scurvy causes hip dysplasia before. From your data it sounds like making sure puppies get some source of vitamin C has the potential to do a lot of good, and is unlikely to do harm even if the theory turns out to be wrong (I believe it's pretty hard to overdose on vitamin C unless you go really crazy with the supplements). So thanks for sharing!


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## Anne Vaini

Rachel Miller said:


> unlikely to do harm even if the theory turns out to be wrong


The opposite has been proven in following studies. I would not be messing around with this.


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## Rachel Miller

Well, the references in the paper you posted seem to say that there is little evidence that vit C prevents or cures hip dysplasia, but there's also been no studies that show that vit C supplementation does any harm in dogs (not sure if you had access to the full text articles?) 

I've recently been talking to some raw feeders who are convinced that dogs don't need any veges or fruit at all in the diet, but reading these references makes me think that providing some source of vit C to a pup seems like a case of better safe than sorry.


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## Connie Sutherland

Rachel Miller said:


> ... I've recently been talking to some raw feeders who are convinced that dogs don't need any veges or fruit at all in the diet, but reading these references makes me think that providing some source of vit C to a pup seems like a case of better safe than sorry.


Unless you are feeding the entire small prey intact, then I disagree 100% with those "some raw feeders." 

The discussion has been done here in great detail and with a ton of references. There is more than Vitamin C involved in produce (or, of course, and even better, green tripe).


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## Rachel Miller

Thanks Connie, I'll do a search of past threads!


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## Connie Sutherland

Rachel Miller said:


> Thanks Connie, I'll do a search of past threads!


You are going to run into a lot of so-called prey model raw feeders on the 'net.

A huge factor that almost all of the "prey model" sites overlook completely is that a clean empty chicken is not what a canid would devour as "prey."

Wild canids don't field-dress rodents before they snarf them down.

On top of this flaw in many "prey model" diets are the UC Gray Wolf Project (Yellowstone) videos. The produce in the small prey they devoured was not even all of the produce they ate. Fallen ripe berries and young greens that grow by streams (such as fiddleheads) were also part of the diet.

None of it is a big part. And produce is not at all a big part of the raw diet I feed, either. It's like organ meat: a small but (IMHO) important part. I am not in favor of eliminating from the diet something that the animal on his own would instinctively eat. Our dogs cannot run down to the store to correct our feeding errors.

I know this is way more than you wanted to read, but I am hoping that those raw feeders who are telling you this can maybe get some info from you and re-think a bit.


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