# Bomber vom Wolfsheim



## Terrasita Cuffie

Does anyone have information on this dog in terms of working ability, how he has produced as a stud dog [health, nerves, drives, etc.]?

Thanks.

T


----------



## brad robert

Look at the amount of titled offspring from him its pretty high numbers hard to keep track off and he was in very high demand in germany before coming to U.S...My friend recently acquird semen from him so looking forward to see the pups first hand from known producing bitches..


----------



## Sue DiCero

I thought Parrish was not breeding to outside females?


----------



## brad robert

I dont believe he is anymore Sue but im not in the U.S


----------



## Sue DiCero

I posted prior to coffee


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Is the dog still owned by Russ Osborn in Missouri? A friend just recently sent me information on a Bomber son so was looking at the pedigree.

T


----------



## Britney Pelletier

I have been told by multiple people that he produces a lot of health problems and for myself personally, I have only seen so-so working ability. I saw a son when I was in Belgium that was terrible and I know a lot of breeders there had no interest in breeding to him. I think he's a bit overrated, to be honest.

Where are these astounding numbers of titled progeny? He's been bred A LOT more than Drago vom Patriot and Drago already has far more titled progeny than Bomber. Even Bomber's brother, Bandit, has been bred substantially less, but he seems to produce far more consistently.


----------



## Kristian Taves

Britney Pelletier said:


> ... He's been bred A LOT more than Drago vom Patriot and Drago already has far more titled progeny than Bomber....QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Really? On what source do you base your assertion that Drago v. Patriot has more titled progeny than Bomber v. Wolfsheim?
> My quick count on workingdogs.eu showed Drago with 12 versus Bomber with 80 IPO,SchH, or VPG progeny.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Hello Mr. Taves!!! Great to see you posting here!!

FYI one of the mods will yell quietly at you soon to post a bio before you post too much more. If you like I can fabricate a story or two about you and post them. All will be flattering, I assure you. 

Welcome here.



Kristian Taves said:


> Britney Pelletier said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... He's been bred A LOT more than Drago vom Patriot and Drago already has far more titled progeny than Bomber....QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Really? On what source do you base your assertion that Drago v. Patriot has more titled progeny than Bomber v. Wolfsheim?
> My quick count on workingdogs.eu showed Drago with 12 versus Bomber with 80 IPO,SchH, or VPG progeny.
Click to expand...


----------



## brad robert

Britney Pelletier said:


> I have been told by multiple people that he produces a lot of health problems and for myself personally, I have only seen so-so working ability. I saw a son when I was in Belgium that was terrible and I know a lot of breeders there had no interest in breeding to him. I think he's a bit overrated, to be honest.
> 
> Where are these astounding numbers of titled progeny? He's been bred A LOT more than Drago vom Patriot and Drago already has far more titled progeny than Bomber. Even Bomber's brother, Bandit, has been bred substantially less, but he seems to produce far more consistently.


Britney have you really researched this??? Sounds completely opposite to what most others have said about the dog...You seen one son so you right the dog off? Health problems? have you seen his zw? seems to be pretty decent considering like you said he has been bred so much.There was alot of demand for bombers use in germany and they had to ask for permission to open his stud book for more breedings because of these reasons.Also to add to your statements about his brother bandit both dogs are great no doubts but it seems a pretty broad consensues that bandit rides on bombers coat tails.Have you seen the grip on bomber its absolutely crushing and powerful something missing in a lot of dogs.


----------



## Sue DiCero

Russ does not own Bomber. Russ works for Parrish who owns Bomber.


----------



## Rick Mattox

I've heard all the hype on this dog. Believe me I like the way his pedigree reads. But that's just paper. Since he never trialed in a big trial there is very little video to see of him. When you ask what makes him such a great stud I get the same answer. He's a great looking large V-rated male and look how many breedings he had in Germany. Too me that doesn't make a great stud. Never have I heard about offspring of his that have made a big name or won the big trials. The most noteworthy offspring I've heard of/seen personally are the two that T. Floyd owns here in the states. I can understand taking a chance on him as a stud in the begining but I'd like to see more by way of production in a stud by now. As far as titled dogs off him I would hope he'd a few with as many offspring out there that he's sired. That being said I would think there would be more out there in trials other than just club level. JMHO. For my money I would have to look elsewhere at this time.


----------



## Jeremy Friedman

Rick Mattox said:


> I've heard all the hype on this dog. Believe me I like the way his pedigree reads. But that's just paper. Since he never trialed in a big trial there is very little video to see of him. When you ask what makes him such a great stud I get the same answer. He's a great looking large V-rated male and look how many breedings he had in Germany. Too me that doesn't make a great stud. Never have I heard about offspring of his that have made a big name or won the big trials. The most noteworthy offspring I've heard of/seen personally are the two that T. Floyd owns here in the states. I can understand taking a chance on him as a stud in the begining but I'd like to see more by way of production in a stud by now. As far as titled dogs off him I would hope he'd a few with as many offspring out there that he's sired. That being said I would think there would be more out there in trials other than just club level. JMHO. For my money I would have to look elsewhere at this time.


 
I agree with you. All I ever hear about him is how great his grip is. There is a lot more to a dog than a crushing grip. I have only seen a few videos of him and I wasn't very impressed by his overall performance.


----------



## brad robert

Do you guys actually research your stuff before you speak? Seriously!!! The dog has had numerous offspring at LGA and BSP and more sure to come will he be a troll or a yoschy a olex etc etc no maybe not but people obviously saw something in him they liked where there is many studs to be had.Seems a lot of bashers and people saying he produce nothing yet nothing to back it up or they say he produce nothing that compete at high level well look again :roll:


----------



## Stefan Schaub

brad robert said:


> Do you guys actually research your stuff before you speak? Seriously!!! The dog has had numerous offspring at LGA and BSP and more sure to come will he be a troll or a yoschy a olex etc etc no maybe not but people obviously saw something in him they liked where there is many studs to be had.Seems a lot of bashers and people saying he produce nothing yet nothing to back it up or they say he produce nothing that compete at high level well look again :roll:


If you know so well, than tell me what people have seen in him??
I would like to know,so maybe i have make a mistake to use his half brother.

or do you know a well known kennel who have used him. how many offspring was successful on big trials. 

Ferro,Troll,Nick ,Olex and Yoschy have been in this age already well known for the offspring.also all these dogs have shown the quality on the big trials. Yoschy failed on the BSP!!!but he failed with a hard hit and no out after that.to bad that the video quality can not give back his show from the BSP. I remember after his first hit that the kraut was getting crazy.

Some of the dogs you named have compete with their own offspring on the same championships.
i Make it easy for you:check movies in a line 
Ferro-Troll-Yoschy 

Ferro-Timmy-Half-Nick-Olex

Dino-Asko-Quincy 

Justin-Agent--Quardes

do you see something???


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Sue DiCero said:


> Russ does not own Bomber. Russ works for Parrish who owns Bomber.


 
Hi Sue,

This is off topic of course but would just like to say I had a look at your web site and am impressed.

We had a pup of Sid Haus Pixner but had to have him put to sleep (tumour). He was, to quote his breeder "the "bar Alt" - "like mother like son" of Lana Randegger Schloss.

I met Elmar Mannes at a weekend training here in Switzerland. He is a full-blooded German Shepherd breeder who has an extremely good knowledge of the dog's potentials be it în tracking or protection.

Gill


----------



## Gillian Schuler

_I have been told by multiple people that he produces a lot of health problems and for myself personally, I have only seen so-so working ability. I saw a son when I was in Belgium that was terrible and I know a lot of breeders there had no interest in breeding to him. I think he's a bit overrated, to be honest._

Can you provide facts for this - not just "hearsay"? Where have you seen this


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Britney Pelletier said:


> I have been told by multiple people that he produces a lot of health problems and for myself personally, I have only seen so-so working ability. I saw a son when I was in Belgium that was terrible and I know a lot of breeders there had no interest in breeding to him. I think he's a bit overrated, to be honest.
> 
> Where are these astounding numbers of titled progeny? He's been bred A LOT more than Drago vom Patriot and Drago already has far more titled progeny than Bomber. Even Bomber's brother, Bandit, has been bred substantially less, but he seems to produce far more consistently.


 
Can you produce facts for his health problems? Can you tell us about his so-so working ability?

"A son of his was "terrible" in Belgium". Why?

I am not disputing such "information" but would like FACTS and not "dog chatter".


----------



## Sue DiCero

Gillian Schuler said:


> Hi Sue,
> 
> This is off topic of course but would just like to say I had a look at your web site and am impressed.
> 
> We had a pup of Sid Haus Pixner but had to have him put to sleep (tumour). He was, to quote his breeder "the "bar Alt" - "like mother like son" of Lana Randegger Schloss.
> 
> I met Elmar Mannes at a weekend training here in Switzerland. He is a full-blooded German Shepherd breeder who has an extremely good knowledge of the dog's potentials be it în tracking or protection.
> 
> Gill


Thank you . Elmar is incredible. He keeps up with what Adi is producing. I like that. He wants to know what Sid's progeny is doing.....


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm curious as to what Sue/Gabor saw with their Vito progeny and what has been seen health-wise when comparing the A and B litter Noditha progeny. From a hips/elbows perspective, there seems to be more reported with the B litter if that is indicative of anything. Does the SV keep public records of the age that they certify the hips/elbows?

T


----------



## Rick Mattox

Brad there have not been numberous dogs shown at the LGA or BSP. A few yes but not many. Particularly compared to how many litters he's sired. Most of us here do have the Euro site as well. Also none of these that were shown there have won. How many have made the top 8? These are regional and national championships of Germany. Doesn't take much to qualify to trial. It does to place in the top though. None of these have made any name for themselves. Like Stefan said by now this should have happened. At least with one dog. To be called a good stud let alone a great one, in my eyes, he would have had to accomplish more than what I've seen so far. Like Stefan I too would like to hear of what big name kennel in Germany used him? Not only used him but thought enopugh of the breeding to use him again?


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm curious as to what Sue/Gabor saw with their Vito progeny and what has been seen health-wise when comparing the A and B litter Noditha progeny. From a hips/elbows perspective, there seems to be more reported with the B litter if that is indicative of anything. Does the SV keep public records of the age that they certify the hips/elbows?
> 
> T


Vito have produced really well with different females, special with the females with Ernst blood. he produced for sure (with the right female) better dogs than he was. but again there has been better Tom sons than Vito, maybe not better looking!!!!!


----------



## Sue DiCero

Stefan Schaub said:


> Vito have produced really well with different females, special with the females with Ernst blood. he produced for sure (with the right female) better dogs than he was. but again there has been better Tom sons than Vito, maybe not better looking!!!!!


Agree with Stefan.  

No issue with the Vito ones here. We have kept up with the other littermates and Freya is ours and here with us.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Really great to have a discussion of more current stud dogs. Ernst blood? Also, who were the better Tom sons?

Thanks.

T


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Really great to have a discussion of more current stud dogs. Ernst blood? Also, who were the better Tom sons?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> T


Ellute Mohnwiese, Benny Germanenquelle


----------



## Aaron W. Smith

Stefan Schaub said:


> Ellute Mohnwiese, Benny Germanenquelle


Stefan,

Why do you say Ellute is superior to Vito?


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Aaron W. Smith said:


> Stefan,
> 
> Why do you say Ellute is superior to Vito?


He was the better dog,worked Ellute on the BSP and many of his offspring, have see Vito on the LGA and worked also many offspring.both males have make many studs, Vito because of his look and Elute because of his workability.

i missed to breed with Ellute,bad for me today,wish i have done it.


----------



## brad robert

Stefan Schaub said:


> If you know so well, than tell me what people have seen in him??
> I would like to know,so maybe i have make a mistake to use his half brother.
> 
> or do you know a well known kennel who have used him. how many offspring was successful on big trials.
> 
> Ferro,Troll,Nick ,Olex and Yoschy have been in this age already well known for the offspring.also all these dogs have shown the quality on the big trials. Yoschy failed on the BSP!!!but he failed with a hard hit and no out after that.to bad that the video quality can not give back his show from the BSP. I remember after his first hit that the kraut was getting crazy.
> 
> Some of the dogs you named have compete with their own offspring on the same championships.
> i Make it easy for you:check movies in a line
> Ferro-Troll-Yoschy
> 
> Ferro-Timmy-Half-Nick-Olex
> 
> Dino-Asko-Quincy
> 
> Justin-Agent--Quardes
> 
> do you see something???


Sure i see something stefan but do you see something 

Tom-Vito-Bomber-Bandit etc

Neck- Andy-Bomber etc

Its all relevant yes?

Stefan i respect your knowledge and experience and will not argue with you but i do like healthy debate as i think it helps to learn.You bred from another vito son there is a few vito sons producing beautiful and nice working dogs i think the b litter was another nice Vito litter?

If i was not able to attain the same lines that you did i would not discount getting offspring from bomber as its another route to vito-tom querry.

I can not say for sure how many kennels have used the dog but i do know there has been a host of bitches from karthargo,jabina,staachtsmacht and anerbri bitches used maybe not from direct from the kennels.

As for placing at the top of the podium isnt that as much training as it is the dog?


----------



## brad robert

So stefan you used a half brother to bomber who is from the same dam(for me probably one of the the most important factors is the mother line) ...and you have also said vito-tom-qerry line has produced very well so what am i missing here? You like the bottom line as you have used it yourself and the vito line is as you described...what gives:-s:?. To my way of thinking that doesnt really add up.


----------



## brad robert

Sorry need to correct my mistake..stefan didnt say he bred to vito but to bomber half brother connected thru Noditha i believe..


----------



## Rick Mattox

I think that the aspect you are missing is that you can get those same bloodlines, mother and father lines, from other dogs that have made a name for themselves. Not only on the trial feilds but also in the whelping box. So I ask you why would you go to a dog like Bomber who hasn't shown a very good percentage production wise, when you can go to another dog that has the same lines and has done all these things? The time for taking a chance on the dog has past. A breeder is going to go with the lines he likes and from a dog that has the better production rate. If you want the same mother lines as Bomber his half brother would have been the way to go. I believe Stefan did. You mentioned that females from many well known kennels have been bred too Bomber. Most , if not all, were bitches purchased by others and bred to him. So that means nothing. Other than the fact that if these were quality females from quality kennel programs why did he not produce better offspring with them? You also ask about dogs on the podium being as much training as anything else. This is true, but the dogs have to have what it takes to be trained to that level. Also with as much hype as Bomber has gotten, as well as how many offspring he has, don't you think that at least one of these offspring would have wound up in the hands of one of these top trainers by now and done something? Also the dogs don't have to make the podium but if he's a great stud his offspring should be placing closer to the top of the field.


----------



## brad robert

Rick you make some good points no doubt,who would be in your eyes sons from vito that has produced better? Agent vom wolfsheim was brought up and as a half brother to bomber thru the dam you seem to ellude that he was a better dog to breed to then bomber? Agent and justin are strong lines as are vito and tom which have shown the test of time


----------



## Stefan Schaub

brad robert said:


> Sure i see something stefan but do you see something
> 
> Tom-Vito-Bomber-Bandit etc
> 
> Neck- Andy-Bomber etc
> 
> Its all relevant yes?
> 
> Stefan i respect your knowledge and experience and will not argue with you but i do like healthy debate as i think it helps to learn.You bred from another vito son there is a few vito sons producing beautiful and nice working dogs i think the b litter was another nice Vito litter?
> 
> If i was not able to attain the same lines that you did i would not discount getting offspring from bomber as its another route to vito-tom querry.
> 
> I can not say for sure how many kennels have used the dog but i do know there has been a host of bitches from karthargo,jabina,staachtsmacht and anerbri bitches used maybe not from direct from the kennels.
> 
> As for placing at the top of the podium isnt that as much training as it is the dog?


Tom was great,Vito was ok,how is Bomber??Is he better than Vito and TOM was, not was i have seen,but maybe i am wrong.
Same Neck-Andy-Bomber!!! Both males real speed to the Helper,does Bomber have that,i think Bandit is closer to them.

And you are right,the B litter was a nice litter but not work wise like the A-litter. Noditha produced really well with Justin,but after that not a lot.Why is she so well known.No one have care about her first,than we have start to promote Agent, bad for him that he was so ugly or he would have made 150 studs more.Agent Arrico Aransha and Arek all dogs with real work quality.not all with good trainers like Agent but the dogs had the quality to make their way.on the other hand the b litter was allready in second hand before they turned one year.Bomber was with the owner of Pike Schaffbachmuehle, Heiko is a specialist for young dogs,he is able to get all out of a youngster,but not with Bomber.maybe it was not the right handler for him or what ever.

Back to Noditha!! was she a great producer!4 different breeding partners but only with Justin she have produced dogs with the same speed and power like she and Justin was.
Axel(breeder Wolfsheim) have take a Justin son for his G-litter?why not a Vito son?maybe he have seen that the Justin blood was the right decision.Justins mother line is even strong like Nodithas.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

brad robert said:


> Rick you make some good points no doubt,who would be in your eyes sons from vito that has produced better? Agent vom wolfsheim was brought up and as a half brother to bomber thru the dam you seem to ellude that he was a better dog to breed to then bomber? Agent and justin are strong lines as are vito and tom which have shown the test of time


For me it is important that the dogs get better and better and we not sit with our mind on the grand dad or dad because he was a great dog. that was the reason that i post the dogs in a line.they have get better and better.that is the way to bred.find the best son out of this great producer and use him,he have the genetic and is by him self what we need. why go a step back.is optic so important? i do the same with my females. they must get better and better from generation to generation. Gracia was better than Orla,Franka was better than Orla,Corry was better than Orla and many of her daughters have been not better than she was.

To make it easy!!Do you think the B-litter is more working dog than Vito or Noditha was??


----------



## brad robert

Really interesting posts Stefan and nice insights,was Bomber and Bandit as good as Vito that im guessing a helper or owner could only answer? I see you not think so. Very interesting that you think that Bandit followed more in the line of his mothers top side again emphasing the importances of the dam.

I can see agent not very attractive dog but his brother arrek was for sure handsme looking type why was this dog not used more? not as good a quality as his brother? was agent the best of the litter? Even there sire who from all accounts a great dog and producer not used very heavily?

I also notice Justin 3-3 on mink im guessing this plays a part in how he produced and to what bitches...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> I also notice Justin 3-3 on mink im guessing this plays a part in how he produced and to what bitches...


I considered this is the case but will be interesting as to what others think. Also in distinguishing Noditha's litters, I see multiple titled progeny in all of them and fairly consistent hips/elbow ratings from each litter. So the titles are there but unless you have worked a considerable number of the progeny from each litter how do you determine which is better? Stefan mentions speed and power. Any other character traits. Bomber seems to be talked about regarding a "crushing grip" as if that alone makes a dog. It really comes down to what one thinks makes one dog better than the other. The comments are that the A litter was better than the B litter in terms of working traits. How, other than speed and power(?)?

T


----------



## brad robert

This brings me back to something you said..in improving with each breeding and picking the best ofspring better then there sires or dams etc..but say when you have a dog like a olex or a yoschy are there sons really better then them?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> This brings me back to something you said..in improving with each breeding and picking the best ofspring better then there sires or dams etc..but say when you have a dog like a olex or a yoschy are there sons really better then them?


I've been thinking about this as well. It can imply that you start from less than ideal. Seems like you bring in a stud/bitch to maintain your good points and improve upon the negatives. I tend to think in terms of good studs and bitches reproducing their good traits. They certainly shouldn't hurt you.

T


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I've been thinking about this as well. It can imply that you start from less than ideal. Seems like you bring in a stud/bitch to maintain your good points and improve upon the negatives. I tend to think in terms of good studs and bitches reproducing their good traits. They certainly shouldn't hurt you.
> 
> T


if you see a bad things in a female why breed with her????i do not talk about a ZW or maybe bad color i talk only about work quality. the endless drive to get to the target and the ability to take pressure.to know the bad and good things you must train with your own dogs!!! maybe my luck is or was that i have train to 99% with all the breeding partners in my breed or that was the reason that i toked them.

there were better sons!! for me for sure Amigo was better than Yoschy, he had bad training and a stupid handler, he produced in a few litters great. Olex had some great sons,but a lot of time way to much for the handler.with out any inside knowledge and contact you will never hear from these dogs.
It was the same with Elliot, i used him with Schh1 i think i was the first or second.someone told me about a crazy dog,to much for his handler.so i drove there checked him and used him.


if i would use Vito blood than it would be Zico!!great dog!!!


----------



## Stefan Schaub

brad robert said:


> Really interesting posts Stefan and nice insights,was Bomber and Bandit as good as Vito that im guessing a helper or owner could only answer? I see you not think so. Very interesting that you think that Bandit followed more in the line of his mothers top side again emphasing the importances of the dam.
> 
> I can see agent not very attractive dog but his brother arrek was for sure handsme looking type why was this dog not used more? not as good a quality as his brother? was agent the best of the litter? Even there sire who from all accounts a great dog and producer not used very heavily?
> 
> I also notice Justin 3-3 on mink im guessing this plays a part in how he produced and to what bitches...


i trained Justin,Arek and Agent.Justin and Agent was owned by Nico and Arek was owned by Nicos girlfriend. Arek have get sold(here to Bill) only to save the relationship between Nico and Biggi(girlfriend).Both males have get used for breeding and about that fight have start.for me Agent was the best one.Arek and Arico realy good dogs and better looking,but both not like mom and dad. Agent was more than both parents.
We have to many working dog breeders with there mind in color and structure, and dogs like Justin or Agent do not fit in their mind.

Cliff Moehnequelle,Ajax Roehnsalerbach,Conner Staatsmacht and many more are that typ dog who are in these breeders mind. can they produce something??with luck and a great female maybe!!!


----------



## Rob Kringel

Stefan Schaub said:


> if you see a bad things in a female why breed with her????i do not talk about a ZW or maybe bad color i talk only about work quality. the endless drive to get to the target and the ability to take pressure.to know the bad and good things you must train with your own dogs!!! maybe my luck is or was that i have train to 99% with all the breeding partners in my breed or that was the reason that i toked them.
> 
> there were better sons!! for me for sure Amigo was better than Yoschy, he had bad training and a stupid handler, he produced in a few litters great. Olex had some great sons,but a lot of time way to much for the handler.with out any inside knowledge and contact you will never hear from these dogs.
> It was the same with Elliot, i used him with Schh1 i think i was the first or second.someone told me about a crazy dog,to much for his handler.so i drove there checked him and used him.
> 
> 
> if i would use Vito blood than it would be Zico!!great dog!!!


Stefan, 
This is a very good post. If I understand what you are saying, you never really know what a dog is made of until you work him your self. Many dogs get a lot of recognition but are they really that good? Who knows until you see them in training or work them your self. There may be better dogs but unless you happen see them and work them you will never know about them.


----------



## Katie Finlay

Stefan, you are my shining star. Seriously. You are a blessing to German Shepherds, and one that the breed direly, direly needs.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

It is really time that people understand that a working dog breed is not about structure and color.it is not about what other people have used.it is about the the individual dog by him self. does the dog fit to his parents!!

people are so easy to fake!!special in germany,monthly you get the "Decknachrichten",every stud for that month is in there.if you have a new male and need some commercial, register a few studs in there and people start to talk about the dog.and the special smart breeder jump on this train!!must be a good dog because he have make 3 studs in one month!!
the sv does not really care about that,they get 50 euro for every registered stud,nice money.every month 400 to 600 studs, round 20000 to 30000 euro/month.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> It is really time that people understand that a working dog breed is not about structure and color.it is not about what other people have used.it is about the the individual dog by him self. does the dog fit to his parents!!
> 
> people are so easy to fake!!special in germany,monthly you get the "Decknachrichten",every stud for that month is in there.if you have a new male and need some commercial, register a few studs in there and people start to talk about the dog.and the special smart breeder jump on this train!!must be a good dog because he have make 3 studs in one month!!
> the sv does not really care about that,they get 50 euro for every registered stud,nice money.every month 400 to 600 studs, round 20000 to 30000 euro/month.


Well, I do like and want good structure. Otherwise working, the dog has potential to break down. Retiring dogs at 5 because of bad hips/elbows suck. Straight stifles and ACL tears is a huge problem. Have a new dog in my group that is fantastic mentally but has the straightest stifles I've ever seen and a huge dip in her back. She walks 3 miles every night but wasn't holding up for her herding training sessions which are pretty short. Told the owner maybe heat is still a factor for her. Owner immediately questioned what I thought of her rear end and I responded regarding my concern for the stifles. She then asked what I thought about the hips. My response was that she shows some stress on the left but I'm not sure if that's structural or something else. We discussed x-raying her back and front. Herding dogs are still working at age 10 and 11 if they have the structure and health.

T


----------



## brad robert

I think earlier T that stefan said form follows function..if the dog has the will,ethic and capacity to work and his body can do this with no problems then surely his structure is helping him to be physically able to do it.

Something i do not see talked about is how a dog breaths and recovers...a clean brething dog who can get a second wind and not get all choked up for air and full of lactic i think should be of importance


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> I think earlier T that stefan said form follows function..if the dog has the will,ethic and capacity to work and his body can do this with no problems then surely his structure is helping him to be physically able to do it.
> 
> Something i do not see talked about is how a dog breaths and recovers...a clean brething dog who can get a second wind and not get all choked up for air and full of lactic i think should be of importance


Brad,

Bad structure will only hold up for so long [with some dogs] and you won't know it until later. Love the type and structure I see in the photographs and videos of some of Stefan's dogs, btw. With some dogs the drive carries them through. My male dog has some structural things about him that I wonder if will impede him work-wise. He's sorta a "clunker." He has all the drive, will and heart in the world which is why I wanted him. Only time will tell. My friend has American Bulldogs. Breathing is a major topic of discussion and concern in that breed. Two of my dogs littermates sorta snort. They have the least heat tolerance of the litter. Breathing issues isn't something that's generally an issue in the breed but it does make you wonder.

T


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, I do like and want good structure. Otherwise working, the dog has potential to break down. Retiring dogs at 5 because of bad hips/elbows suck. Straight stifles and ACL tears is a huge problem. Have a new dog in my group that is fantastic mentally but has the straightest stifles I've ever seen and a huge dip in her back. She walks 3 miles every night but wasn't holding up for her herding training sessions which are pretty short. Told the owner maybe heat is still a factor for her. Owner immediately questioned what I thought of her rear end and I responded regarding my concern for the stifles. She then asked what I thought about the hips. My response was that she shows some stress on the left but I'm not sure if that's structural or something else. We discussed x-raying her back and front. Herding dogs are still working at age 10 and 11 if they have the structure and health.
> 
> T


do you really think that the structure today have help our dogs in work.most are way to heavy and have to big bones.the gsd have look different in the beginning.


----------



## Katie Finlay

Form follows function. If I breed dogs for function, they're going to hold up. That's because I'm not breeding dogs that don't hold up because they can't perform the function. Form is hardly even something to be thought about because selecting a good working dog is going to bring the form in.

Look at working line Malinois. No one is paying even a second's notice to form and structure, and they're probably the most sustainable working breed in the world.

GSDs, Rottweilers, etc. The dog might be IPO 5000 but I guarantee it's still got a show rating and if he's not V or SG he's not getting any puppies.

I don't think I know a single person who has a 100% healthy working line GSD. Does no one realize that?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> do you really think that the structure today have help our dogs in work.most are way to heavy and have to big bones.the gsd have look different in the beginning.


Stefan, it depends on what type of structure you are talking about. To the extent you may be referencing what is commonly seen in the specialty American and German show line dogs, I'd agree with you--completely screwed up. I can think of working line male I've seen in protection sports that I felt was a clunker--too big, too heavy and too slow. 75-85 lbs on a male is plenty big for me. I think 24 inches and 60-65 pounds is top of any standard for a GSD bitch. I don't like roached or dippy backs. I like good, not over angulation with exaggerated lower stifle length. The same referencing shoulder angulation, upper arm length, etc. Even if its insufficient angulation, balance front to rear. In any of the breeds I've had, I tend to like the smaller. My bouvier bitch is 23.5 inches/60 lbs. The male we had was 25.5 and 80 lbs. Both had/have tons of speed/agility. The GSD bitches I've had were 23-24 inches/60 lbs. Good feet/pasterns, level toplines, balance front to rear with good angulation. Too me its just basic structure stuff applicable to many breeds. I've had ideal and less than ideal and really the only thing I've noticed is that the less than ideal don't move as well or handle rougher terrain when they start to age around age 7-9. Others that have had the more pronounced less than ideal, complain of susceptibility to injury. I kinda have an ideal and then the lesser of that I will accept if the dog has everything else I'm looking for. For instance, with my bouvier bitch, there were other bitches in the litter I liked structurally, but she had the best mental package I was looking for and what I call sufficient structure, so I picked her.


T


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Stefan, it depends on what type of structure you are talking about. To the extent you may be referencing what is commonly seen in the specialty American and German show line dogs, I'd agree with you--completely screwed up. I can think of working line male I've seen in protection sports that I felt was a clunker--too big, too heavy and too slow. 75-85 lbs on a male is plenty big for me. I think 24 inches and 60-65 pounds is top of any standard for a GSD bitch. I don't like roached or dippy backs. I like good, not over angulation with exaggerated lower stifle length. The same referencing shoulder angulation, upper arm length, etc. Even if its insufficient angulation, balance front to rear. In any of the breeds I've had, I tend to like the smaller. My bouvier bitch is 23.5 inches/60 lbs. The male we had was 25.5 and 80 lbs. Both had/have tons of speed/agility. The GSD bitches I've had were 23-24 inches/60 lbs. Good feet/pasterns, level toplines, balance front to rear with good angulation. Too me its just basic structure stuff applicable to many breeds. I've had ideal and less than ideal and really the only thing I've noticed is that the less than ideal don't move as well or handle rougher terrain when they start to age around age 7-9. Others that have had the more pronounced less than ideal, complain of susceptibility to injury. I kinda have an ideal and then the lesser of that I will accept if the dog has everything else I'm looking for. For instance, with my bouvier bitch, there were other bitches in the litter I liked structurally, but she had the best mental package I was looking for and what I call sufficient structure, so I picked her.
> 
> 
> T


i do not care and talk about show line breed, i talk about "working dog breed"!!but if you want i give you 500 kennel names who make a show breed with working lines. how many successful working dog kennels come in your mind when you think on gsd breed. how many of the same kennel names do you find about in the web and how many breeder do we have worldwide.

i do not have one clue when people talk about angulations, but i have a clue if a dog is able to walk 50 feets up on open iron stairs, i do not have a clue about "gsd movement" but i have a clue if a dog goes 50 feet down in a black room to get his toy, i do not have a clue about head shape but i have a clue how a real dog have to take out the helper and that is the only thing what matters.
i do not care about Zuchtwert!! biggest fake, i do not care about Koerbericht(breed survey) and i do not care what other people use for breeding. but i care if my females and males survive my work style and i care that my dogs get their toy out there where i hide it.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Rob Kringel said:


> Stefan,
> This is a very good post. If I understand what you are saying, you never really know what a dog is made of until you work him your self. Many dogs get a lot of recognition but are they really that good? Who knows until you see them in training or work them your self. There may be better dogs but unless you happen see them and work them you will never know about them.


some people sit on their laptop and read and write about the breed,they think they get smart with reading and then other people work dogs day for day and because they work dogs day for day they know a lot of different dogs and people.and than a few ones get better and better with working dogs and knowing the right people.so who is smarter and for sure have the better informations.


----------



## Katie Finlay

I also think its important to note that the working line dogs have as many problems as the show lines.


----------



## Joby Becker

Stefan Schaub said:


> i do not care and talk about show line breed, i talk about "working dog breed"!!but if you want i give you 500 kennel names who make a show breed with working lines. how many successful working dog kennels come in your mind when you think on gsd breed. how many of the same kennel names do you find about in the web and how many breeder do we have worldwide.
> 
> i do not have one clue when people talk about angulations, but i have a clue if a dog is able to walk 50 feets up on open iron stairs, i do not have a clue about "gsd movement" *but i have a clue if a dog goes 50 feet down in a black room to get his toy, i do not have a clue about head shape but i have a clue how a real dog have to take out the helper and that is the only thing what matters.*
> *i do not care about Zuchtwert!! biggest fake, i do not care about Koerbericht(breed survey) and i do not care what other people use for breeding. but i care if my females and males survive my work style and i care that my dogs get their toy out there where i hide it.*


=D>


----------



## susan tuck

Stefan Schaub said:


> i do not care and talk about show line breed, i talk about "working dog breed"!!but if you want i give you 500 kennel names who make a show breed with working lines. how many successful working dog kennels come in your mind when you think on gsd breed. how many of the same kennel names do you find about in the web and how many breeder do we have worldwide.
> 
> i do not have one clue when people talk about angulations, but i have a clue if a dog is able to walk 50 feets up on open iron stairs, i do not have a clue about "gsd movement" but i have a clue if a dog goes 50 feet down in a black room to get his toy, i do not have a clue about head shape but i have a clue how a real dog have to take out the helper and that is the only thing what matters.
> i do not care about Zuchtwert!! biggest fake, i do not care about Koerbericht(breed survey) and i do not care what other people use for breeding. but i care if my females and males survive my work style and i care that my dogs get their toy out there where i hide it.


This makes so much sense to me. The dogs that can excel at these things, have tons of drive, great nerve, these are the GSDs to be bred.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> i do not care about Zuchtwert!! biggest fake, i do not care about Koerbericht(breed survey) and i do not care what other people use for breeding. but i care if my females and males survive my work style and i care that my dogs get their toy out there where i hide it.


As for caring about someone else's 'system,' I agree with you. I also agree about the ZW system--pure marketing. I do not select dogs based on what others will think of them. I select them for me and what I want to do with them and structure and health are highly relevant. Over the years, I've seen what works and what doesn't--not just with my own but with others. I also work dogs over the course of their lifetime and see others worked over the course of their lives and how they change at what ages, mentally and physically.

T


----------



## Christopher Jones

Hi Stefan, 
There is a new stud dog comming into Australia that they are claiming to be a super working dog and also has conformation of a top show dog.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1832571-bruno-vom-wallensener-hof

Do you know much about the dog and his reputation for working?


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Christopher Jones said:


> Hi Stefan,
> There is a new stud dog comming into Australia that they are claiming to be a super working dog and also has conformation of a top show dog.
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1832571-bruno-vom-wallensener-hof
> 
> Do you know much about the dog and his reputation for working?


Do not know the dog by myself but do know that he was owned by Denis Rhode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scvYjiWUVmI
0.55 must i say more. nice working show dog

close the same
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7OSwmLJNIA


----------



## Christopher Smith

Stefan Schaub said:


> Do not know the dog by myself but do know that he was owned by Denis Rhode.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scvYjiWUVmI
> 0.55 must i say more. nice working show dog
> 
> close the same
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7OSwmLJNIA




Why would a person put that crap in slow motion and spa music? It's like they didn't want you to miss how bad the dog was.


----------



## Brian McQuain

Christopher Smith said:


> Why would a person put that crap in slow motion and spa music? It's like they didn't want you to miss how bad the dog was.


 
They're banking on people not knowing what they are looking at. Plus, slow motion makes everything cooler.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Stefan Schaub said:


> Do not know the dog by myself but do know that he was owned by Denis Rhode.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scvYjiWUVmI
> 0.55 must i say more. nice working show dog
> 
> close the same
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7OSwmLJNIA


Thanks had not seen the video. Is his pedigree impressive for the production of excellent working dogs? The talk was that this dog was at one of the best clubs in Germany and was both super in character and conformation.


----------



## brad robert

Hey Chris J you know the spin "some" people put on things  

Others seem to have a different opinion.

want buy a used book..never read


----------



## Christopher Jones

brad robert said:


> Hey Chris J you know the spin "some" people put on things
> 
> Others seem to have a different opinion.
> 
> want buy a used book..never read


Is it a signed copy?


----------



## brad robert

LOL it is actually :lol: Not sure if that makes it less valuable or what ...


----------



## Christopher Jones

brad robert said:


> LOL it is actually :lol: Not sure if that makes it less valuable or what ...


It just makes the joke that bit funnier.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Christopher Jones said:


> Thanks had not seen the video. Is his pedigree impressive for the production of excellent working dogs? The talk was that this dog was at one of the best clubs in Germany and was both super in character and conformation.


must be!! he looks like he have a super character and for someone who like show dogs in sable it is a double win.

they have try to promote this dog,did not work out,think the biggest mistake was to post a movie of his bite work online.he was smarter with Ajax Roehnsaler bach. try to find a movie of his bite work.


----------



## Sue DiCero

Stefan Schaub said:


> some people sit on their laptop and read and write about the breed,they think they get smart with reading and then other people work dogs day for day and because they work dogs day for day they know a lot of different dogs and people.and than a few ones get better and better with working dogs and knowing the right people.so who is smarter and for sure have the better informations.


----------



## patricia powers

i like karn/bandit but where are the good producing bitches in this pedigree? not there  where are the good solid nerves to support any kind of working ability? not there  this pedigree is a perfect example of one that people brag & say, "oh, he's a so-n-so son or grandson." all they look at is the sire line & think they have the world by the tail. i see a weak nerved dog in the video, especially when he is up on the table. i would not breed to this fella. it would take a hell of a female to compensate for his lack.
pjp


----------



## Erik Berg

Stefan, don´t know so much about it, but what is it about the ZW-system you don´t like?

Intressting about bruno, don´t know the dog but a dog super in conformation is the ones that have a body that are fit for a long life in work in my opinion, not things like colours and other things that is beautifull for some but not so for others. 

Mediocre dogs who are breed more based on their points or beauty seems to be a problem also in the "working" GSD unfortunately. Bruno has a look a like here in sweden that had 17 litters so far, not saying this is a bad dog just because he look a certain way, but how many are selecting such dogs more on their conformation than real workingability and health?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=707225
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA50707zHz4


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Erik Berg said:


> Stefan, don´t know so much about it, but what is it about the ZW-system you don´t like?
> 
> Intressting about bruno, don´t know the dog but a dog super in conformation is the ones that have a body that are fit for a long life in work in my opinion, not things like colours and other things that is beautifull for some but not so for others.
> 
> Mediocre dogs who are breed more based on their points or beauty seems to be a problem also in the "working" GSD unfortunately. Bruno has a look a like here in sweden that had 17 litters so far, not saying this is a bad dog just because he look a certain way, but how many are selecting such dogs more on their conformation than real workingability and health?
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=707225
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA50707zHz4


No one send bad hips for certification to the sv,the zw does not say anything.it is the biggest fake. why should you pay money for something what you already know.


----------



## Joby Becker

Erik Berg said:


> Intressting about bruno, don´t know the dog *but a dog super in conformation is the ones that have a body that are fit for a long life in work in my opinion*, ]


dogs that are super in conformation are often NOT the ones that have good bodies that are fit for a long like of work. If we are talking the conformation ring.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> dogs that are super in conformation are often NOT the ones that have good bodies that are fit for a long like of work. If we are talking the conformation ring.



I'm glad you make the difference between structure and the latest fad in the conformation ring which has nothing to do with structure that enables function.

T


----------



## Katie Finlay

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm glad you make the difference between structure and the latest fad in the conformation ring which has nothing to do with structure that enables function.
> 
> T


Unfortunately the SV and 99.9999999% of GSD people do not make that difference.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Katie Finlay said:


> Unfortunately the SV and 99.9999999% of GSD people do not make that difference.


Yeah, but if you know what you are looking at and what works, it doesn't matter whether the rest of them differentiate. But you're right. The mere mention of structure and everyone starts talking about conformation show dogs which is the last thing I'm ever referring to. 

T


----------



## Katie Finlay

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, but if you know what you are looking at and what works, it doesn't matter whether the rest of them differentiate.
> 
> T


It does. Because they're producing unhealthy dogs day in and day out. Even if it's a working line dog. The breed is not healthy. It's sad. Nearly every single working GSD breeder won't breed a dog that fails in the show ring regardless of its working ability.


----------



## brad robert

Katie Finlay said:


> It does. Because they're producing unhealthy dogs day in and day out. Even if it's a working line dog. The breed is not healthy. It's sad. Nearly every single working GSD breeder won't breed a dog that fails in the show ring regardless of its working ability.


Where in germany or the U.S ??? Thats dumb.Thank god no one out here shows working line dogs so it has no influence on the outcome in the right breedings


----------



## susan tuck

brad robert said:


> Where in germany or the U.S ??? Thats dumb.Thank god no one out here shows working line dogs so it has no influence on the outcome in the right breedings


Working Line breeders who want to Breed Survey their dogs (regardless of the country) have to get a minimum "G" show rating, so that they can qualify for a breed survey. Beyond that, almost no one shows their working line dogs here either. 

Honestly I'm not familiar with any great working line dogs kicking around that couldn't manage a "g" rating under a judge who appreciates working line dogs. 

Even Asko managed an "SG" and I've heard it said by some who knew him that he was down right.....fugly.:lol: Sure didn't stop working line breeders from breeding to him!


----------



## Erik Berg

Joby Becker said:


> dogs that are super in conformation are often NOT the ones that have good bodies that are fit for a long like of work. If we are talking the conformation ring.


Exactly, I meant that those who boast about their GSDs conformation usually are thinking of other things than a conformation/structure that are more similar to other workingbreeds or their wild counterparts like wolves or dingos. I mean all working/hunting dogs and their wild counterparts have a rather short straight back with not too much angulation, the opposite what is considered good confirmation by many GSD people.

Don´t know how hard it is to get an "ugly" dog thru the german breed survey, but I suppose the problem is many wants to breed to the dogs who alo are "beautifull" and hence the showdog look is spreading thru the workinglines also, quite obvious in some GSDs that are breed under a system where conformationratings are needed for breeding.

Stefan, yes that sounds like a strange system, if bad hips are not also calculated into the ZW-number.


----------



## Katie Finlay

brad robert said:


> Where in germany or the U.S ??? Thats dumb.Thank god no one out here shows working line dogs so it has no influence on the outcome in the right breedings


Are you kidding? How many of the "best" stud dogs had no breed survey (show) rating?


----------



## Britney Pelletier

brad robert said:


> Britney have you really researched this??? Sounds completely opposite to what most others have said about the dog...You seen one son so you right the dog off? Health problems? have you seen his zw? seems to be pretty decent considering like you said he has been bred so much.There was alot of demand for bombers use in germany and they had to ask for permission to open his stud book for more breedings because of these reasons.Also to add to your statements about his brother bandit both dogs are great no doubts but it seems a pretty broad consensues that bandit rides on bombers coat tails.Have you seen the grip on bomber its absolutely crushing and powerful something missing in a lot of dogs.


Brad - when did you see Bomber's grip in person? If you haven't, try not to base your opinions of a dog off a video.

More than one dog has had to have their stud books opened up to further breedings than is normally allowed. 

IMO, Bomber was/is bred to so much because of his PARENTS, not because of him. I don't see hundreds of his progeny competing at National and International levels.. please point them out to me. 

and no, I don't believe "Bandit rides on Bomber's coat tails" by any stretch of the imagination. Molly was lucky enough to get Bandit here fairly young, long before Bomber arrived. Bandit is a highly underused stud dog by the working german shepherd community.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Stefan Schaub said:


> If you know so well, than tell me what people have seen in him??
> I would like to know,so maybe i have make a mistake to use his half brother.
> 
> or do you know a well known kennel who have used him. how many offspring was successful on big trials.
> 
> Ferro,Troll,Nick ,Olex and Yoschy have been in this age already well known for the offspring.also all these dogs have shown the quality on the big trials. Yoschy failed on the BSP!!!but he failed with a hard hit and no out after that.to bad that the video quality can not give back his show from the BSP. I remember after his first hit that the kraut was getting crazy.
> 
> Some of the dogs you named have compete with their own offspring on the same championships.
> i Make it easy for you:check movies in a line
> Ferro-Troll-Yoschy
> 
> Ferro-Timmy-Half-Nick-Olex
> 
> Dino-Asko-Quincy
> 
> Justin-Agent--Quardes
> 
> do you see something???



I am late getting back to this thread, but Stefan, you are truly an ASSET to the working german shepherd. I am very grateful to be able to learn and absorb some of your knowledge! Mostly, I am happy that most of what you say is always along the same lines as what I was already thinking


----------



## brad robert

Britney Pelletier said:


> Brad - when did you see Bomber's grip in person? If you haven't, try not to base your opinions of a dog off a video.
> 
> More than one dog has had to have their stud books opened up to further breedings than is normally allowed.
> 
> IMO, Bomber was/is bred to so much because of his PARENTS, not because of him. I don't see hundreds of his progeny competing at National and International levels.. please point them out to me.
> 
> and no, I don't believe "Bandit rides on Bomber's coat tails" by any stretch of the imagination. Molly was lucky enough to get Bandit here fairly young, long before Bomber arrived. Bandit is a highly underused stud dog by the working german shepherd community.


Brittney im in australia so how would i?

Over here most purchases of dogs have to look at video and take reputable peoples advice thats just how it works so when did you see his grip to discredit it? 

You were asked to back up your statements earlier on you didnt?.hundreds of his progeny competing at a national level LMAO so show me a gsd that has hundreds of progeny competing at that high level that was just a silly statement.At the end of the day you believe what you want...


----------



## James Downey

I watched 2 videos of the dog. Here's what I saw....and I do believe you can make some comments without having worked the dog. Judges do it in trials all the time. If it were true the only way to make an accurate critique on a dog was to work him....then every IPO trial ever held the judge was not qualified to judge the dog. according to some posters previously. Judges should be working the dogs in a trial. Otherwise they are just full of shit. okay enough on that....the dog.

His Barkign in the first video....not really fair to be critical of it because the dog was being restrained on a fur saver and could not bark properly. Second video was way better. But the barking just looked like normal barking...It was good...It just was not "holy shit, look at that guarding". The first video had a lot more biting. So I am going to go with that. Everywhere when the dog worked, he looked like he was half in it....with the exception of the grip pressure. The dog bit hard as shit. But they were not full. I am going to call full, where a dog gets the sleeve as far back in his mouth as possible. Bomber did not do that. And here is my assessment (and I am just some guy who watched a video) with everything I saw, with exception to grip pressure. The dog was kind of boring to watch, as he did not push the fight at all. He looked like a boxer who was waiting for the other guy to punch. Then he would do something only if he had too. You can see it right away when the helper gets close to the dog, some barking and pulling and jumping. and when he moves away the dog sits down and takes it down a notch. Not what I call a bad ass dog. A bad ass tries to provoke the helper to get closer, tries to push the issue. not just sit and take a break, and wait for him to come back. He gets a bite, now we see the dog turn up the volume a little....until he finds a nice safe place on the back side of the helper. He's very content here. A drive, no stick hits but some threats he reacts to none of them. In fact he reacts with nothing to any of the decoys sticks hits, or whip pop. So the dog has know stick issues, but he also again gives nothing....we just got a dog who his biting as hard as the dickens letting himself be pushed around. I would like to some reaction...something, a pull, a push a head shake, a leg wrap....something that says I am trying to fight and not just find satisfaction biting hard. Again the pressure he is biting with is pretty to watch....but for me till this point...he's got one sunday punch and that's it the bite pressure. He gets pulled in front....and here we see some chewing... Don't know if the dog's out is still being trained, or if he's get a little nervy. it's slight. Nothing major. I am not sure why, I don't like it. But this very well could not be a flaw in the dog. So, I would not it against him. And then we come to transition after the out.... It suppose to be guarding. My dogs show more power waiting for me to open the fridge door. Again it's just the story of this video a dog that has maybe no want, or no idea on how to push a fight. He's very content here. In guarding the dog should be barking or if he is staring every last fiber in that dog should be using every ounce of self restraint he has to not sucker punch him. It's break time again for bomber. the second out is better The second bite same as the first...almost indentical...also it looks like bomber once he bites, he ain't moving that thing. A tiny bit more chewing upon the decoy going stoic.

Now all that being said. I am not sure if in his training, he was never taught how to win through fighting or if he just has that super deep bomb proof drive. 

In the video during the biting the only time the dog did anything was when the decoy was moving. Decoy stops, dog stops. Same with the barking in the beginning of the vid. Decoy moves away, dog goes away (metaphorically). Either the dog is just a boring dog, or the dog has been trained to be reactive to the decoy. IMO dog should be trying to make something happen, not waiting for something to happen.

We throw terms around like Fight Drive....and if I was looking for drive in a dog that tells me they love fighting....Bomber would not be the dog I would want to use. and also, the questions about bomb proof drive....seeing I cannot substantiate or if the dog is indeed getting a little weird when the decoy stops moving and the dog is frontal... 

And I take all these things into consideration....and ask myself....Should this dog be someones dad? 

I have been often critical of the Shepherd. And it's because these are the dogs I see being hailed as the good ones. I am out in Sacramento right now. And I have been to Placer County Schutzhund club a few times.... I have seen John Riboni (Sp?) pull Shepherd after Shepherd out of his dog trailer that have just revamped my opinion on the dog. With the exception of a select few other shepherds. Now me and John have just exchanged hand shakes, And I will tell you....From what I saw in that video....there are better shepherds out there.


----------



## brad robert

Really interesting insight James into what you saw.I guess one question i have is like yours how much is reflective of training etc..I saw the dog pulling the sleeve up at the rear the dog geting a major leverage advantage and using his brain against a bigger adversary in the decoy and pulling remembering a lot dont teach a IPO dog to push in and fight the dog is trained to bite set his grip and pull back not push in...i think peter cho just wrote something about this in another thread as pushing in and rebiting deeper would be a point deduction in IPO.After watching this a few times i also see the dog shaking or at least trying to as the guy is trying to use a bit of muscle on the dog so when he does its not so visiable. 

The chewing you mention is because he was outed and was slowly giving up the sleeve?

If you watch his Ob stuff i would say the dog has good drive.The other thing that i cant help but notice is that everytime i watch that vid i cant help but see the decoy have a huge smile from start to finish now if we are to believe as some suggest that unless you work the dog or see him worked you cant make a call then i would say that smile says a crap load.

Its nice to see people watch something and give really good descriptive feedback like that


----------



## brad robert

B&H looks nice in this one as does his long bite.

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5932169/Bomber_vom_Wolfsheim

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/3553654/Bomber_vom_Wolfsheim


----------



## Joby Becker

Brad, are you personally inversted in this dog? just curious. I am just curious as you seem to be a lone cheerleader on here, like a man defending the honor of a insulted women or something, attempting to ounteract anything said about him that can be contrued as mildly negative.. 

If you like the dog, I doubt anyone here will fault you if you get a pup off of him. He is still a German Shepherd that is better than most, as should his pups be if put to good bitches. I dont think anyone is faulting or purposefully slighting your friend either for getting semen off of him, he has to be great compared to many of the dogs being used in your country. I dont think you are going to convince people to change thier minds into thinking that he is the best stud dog on the planet, if that is the goal.

If Bomber a good dog sure he is, is he the best dog, best stud dog, or the best producer, some think not apparently. 

If you are not personally invested, or not getting a pup off of him, then it is curious, the amount of effort you seem to be putting into attempting to counteract anything critical that others have said about him.

IF you *are* invested or getting pups off of him, then it is actually more curious because your postings in this thread seem to have brought out many less than flattering comments that probably never would have come out if you were no taking such a strong position in attempting to counteract what peoples opinions on the dog are... 

Many of those opinions sprang forth into written word here, because of postings that you yourself have made. You are not doing the owner of the dog any favors here by posting about him, that is for sure. This thread would have been dead and gone a long time ago I presume without your uphill cheerleading efforts.


----------



## Katie Finlay

Yep. And you say you're trying to get advice from reputable people, but you're not taking it. Stefan Schaub is probably one of the only people in the world with an accurate, unbiased knowledge of this breed.


----------



## James Downey

brad robert said:


> Really interesting insight James into what you saw.I guess one question i have is like yours how much is reflective of training etc..I saw the dog pulling the sleeve up at the rear the dog geting a major leverage advantage and using his brain against a bigger adversary in the decoy and pulling remembering a lot dont teach a IPO dog to push in and fight the dog is trained to bite set his grip and pull back not push in...i think peter cho just wrote something about this in another thread as pushing in and rebiting deeper would be a point deduction in IPO.After watching this a few times i also see the dog shaking or at least trying to as the guy is trying to use a bit of muscle on the dog so when he does its not so visiable.
> 
> The chewing you mention is because he was outed and was slowly giving up the sleeve?
> 
> If you watch his Ob stuff i would say the dog has good drive.The other thing that i cant help but notice is that everytime i watch that vid i cant help but see the decoy have a huge smile from start to finish now if we are to believe as some suggest that unless you work the dog or see him worked you cant make a call then i would say that smile says a crap load.
> 
> Its nice to see people watch something and give really good descriptive feedback like that


it could be training? I suspect a lot it is. I think the dog has no idea to win through fighting. He has no idea on how to make the fight begin by guarding.....I did see the head shakes... but none of it wowed me. And coupled with the other parts... Just the overall picture... was not there for me. 

and I saw the OB. I think the dog has drive. It's not holy shit drive. but it's enough. Now if we are saying, we have to look at his OB to see some dog. that's not a plus.


----------



## brad robert

Katie Finlay said:


> Yep. And you say you're trying to get advice from reputable people, but you're not taking it. Stefan Schaub is probably one of the only people in the world with an accurate, unbiased knowledge of this breed.


In all honesty i dont think anyone is completely unbiased if you think thats good.As for Stefan i have always held him in high regard thats why in the past i have contacted him to try to get semen but the paper work into australia is ridiculous...so yes i take advice from reputable people.



Joby Becker said:


> Brad, are you personally inversted in this dog? just curious. I am just curious as you seem to be a lone cheerleader on here, like a man defending the honor of a insulted women or something, attempting to ounteract anything said about him that can be contrued as mildly negative..
> 
> If you like the dog, I doubt anyone here will fault you if you get a pup off of him. He is still a German Shepherd that is better than most, as should his pups be if put to good bitches. I dont think anyone is faulting or purposefully slighting your friend either for getting semen off of him, he has to be great compared to many of the dogs being used in your country. I dont think you are going to convince people to change thier minds into thinking that he is the best stud dog on the planet, if that is the goal.
> 
> If Bomber a good dog sure he is, is he the best dog, best stud dog, or the best producer, some think not apparently.
> 
> If you are not personally invested, or not getting a pup off of him, then it is curious, the amount of effort you seem to be putting into attempting to counteract anything critical that others have said about him.
> 
> IF you *are* invested or getting pups off of him, then it is actually more curious because your postings in this thread seem to have brought out many less than flattering comments that probably never would have come out if you were no taking such a strong position in attempting to counteract what peoples opinions on the dog are...
> 
> Many of those opinions sprang forth into written word here, because of postings that you yourself have made. You are not doing the owner of the dog any favors here by posting about him, that is for sure. This thread would have been dead and gone a long time ago I presume without your uphill cheerleading efforts.


 
Hey Joby My interest is purely as a gsd lover and to see what genetics and strengths the dog brings with it.Will i get a pup off bomber? not sure.. I simply play devils advocate as i think a lot of people write things off with out a second thought...I actually think if you read it that i dont defend the dog e.g when james said what he saw i rebutted with what i saw i think many see things differently.when Brittany said show me hundreds of offspring in a national etc level its comments like that is exactly what im speaking of the dog from the short records has about 160 ish progeny how the bloody hell are hundreds getting into competition..Im sorry but its comments like this about anyones dog that just annoy me...And you know what by speaking about the dog i have learnt much especially from stefan and that is NEVER a bad thing..and i also have read the dog brings much to the table.

I just like discussion and gaining knowledge about gsd and lines etc its a big interest for me.

I will shut up now  ........


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> I just like discussion and gaining knowledge about gsd and lines etc its a big interest for me.


I think this is how you turn "he's no good" into the WHY. Its the why that is the learning material. Unfortunately when you ask the why, people get offended and think you are disagreeing. I've been too lazy to look up the videos yet, but James' analysis is one of those "whys" that is insightful. 

T


----------



## Stefan Schaub

There is a real easy answer on all that.in one of the videos the helper is Sven(kennel vom Patriot)he worked him but never used him for his own breed so far i know.why


----------



## brad robert

Dont leave us hanging Stefan LOL 

Look at the end of the day if i could get a dog that was the spit out of bomber or vito or tom or andys mouth i would be a happy man....better then most of the stuff here by a mile.And it also adds lines to line breed on tom etc.

Yes T thats all i ever asked


----------



## Britney Pelletier

brad robert said:


> Brittney im in australia so how would i?
> 
> Over here most purchases of dogs have to look at video and take reputable peoples advice thats just how it works so when did you see his grip to discredit it?
> 
> You were asked to back up your statements earlier on you didnt?.hundreds of his progeny competing at a national level LMAO so show me a gsd that has hundreds of progeny competing at that high level that was just a silly statement.At the end of the day you believe what you want...


Sorry Brad, haven't had time to answer all the WHYs because I don't spend much time on here. I would never use the dog for breeding and have personally seen him produce a lot of health issues (missing teeth, bad hip/elbows, missing testicles, etc) in addition to what I already don't like about him.. which is primarily not enough progeny that *I* consider impressive. I dont see in the videos of Bomber what you see. Personal preference. I would use Bandit though.

I don't really have to go into much more detail, as Stefan has already answered many of the questions you asked already.. and yep, I have a bunch of dogs to walk and I'm too lazy to repeat everything he already said!


----------

