# Age, drive and training changes.....



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi all, 

I dont post much, but I do lurk to try to learn to be a better trainer. I have a 3.5yr old (east german) working line gsd. He is training as a wilderness and urban SAR dog. He has always seemed very high drive with a tendency to get a bit hectic if over stimulated. He seems to have changed lately. My main question is about maturity, how to interpret changes in your dog as they age and how you change your training.

The main goal with him has to get him calm and thinking while in drive. He has a bark indication (basically a bark and hold). His job is to find his victim, bark, and not leave until I get to him. In urban work, it is very stressful--on the rubble pile we are asking them to cover some pretty hairy footing. Griffin has always been over the top with his desire to get to the victim. We have progressed fairly quickly with urban training (they have to learn the bark barrel on the ground, a lot of agility, and have a gradual introduction to the rubble--starting with moving the bark barrel onto the pile--giving him the bark cue in the new environment). 

I have also worked Griffin on an easy rubble pile with buried victims, where he is very strong. 

I believe that I may have over faced him a little on our hard rubble pile a month or more ago. He has had a lot to take in in the last 9 months. In one training he was not focused on the bark barrel--he sniffed it (he knew the victim was in it), but left it to 'search' else where. He also did that on the with a victim on the pile. I decided to back up and do 'call outs' and or let him see the victim get in the barrel. That got his drive and focus back up. So he has been doing well. 

1.5 weeks ago I decided to ask him to work a little more on the rubble pile--cross over a little harder part to get to the victim (in the bark barrel, with the scent) blowing directly to Griff--victim also crossed the pile and called out before getting in the barel. Griffin did a good job but was quiet and thoughtful.......didnt seem like my dog......Both helpers with me agreed that he was in drive and happy to engage the victim (chewed the tug rather than tugged though).

Well, this Sun he had an off day again. I did not have the helper call out from the bark barrel, Griffin seemed to want to run around a little, but did go to the barrel, took a big sniff----and left!!! He went to sniff something else, I told him "NO, Find". He went back to the barrel and barked (and got his reward). Later that day we worked the bark barrel on the pile in an are he has worked. there was a call-out, he was willing to get on the pile, but worked quietly again (again this is new to me!!). He never tried to get off the pile, he went to the barrel--took a good sniff--and left!!! he did a quick check of a culvert, went back to the victim and barked. His reward have been his tugs, but the victim had another dogs balls in the barrel too, Griff saw one and wanted that instead of his tug.

I am wondering if at 3.5 he is calming down and thinking. I then wonder how I change my training. It seems to me he needs more reward. We have kept the rewards quiet--he gets his tugs, but the victim plays quietly and also strokes him while rewarding. Maybe I need to have more enthusiastic play for the rubble.....Maybe we need to get him more engaged before sending him to search.

My goal needs to remain a thoughtful working dog, but with enough drive and desire to do his job. I dont think I really have a problem now, but I do think I need to stay ahead of any problems that might be developing....Any thoughts, exeriences or insights???

thanks
Jennifer


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Keep in mind I do not have any urban experience and have not worked any rubble piles. I do wilderness and avalanche.

I am not sure what you mean about the dog being too hectic and having to calm the dog down in drive. Do you really mean the dog was blazing around but not focused on the task?

It sounds to me like the dog lacks pursuit for the reward. I am unsure of why you have worked hard on making the dog like it less. Do you have any video?

To answer your question, I don't think that this is related to the dog's age. Rather it is likely either related to a training problem, or the dog's suitability for the work. 

Hopefully folks with some rubble experience will have some thoughts.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks for the reply Jennifer.

I guess I wasnt as clear as I thought....real conversations are easier LOL!!

He is very drivey and (has been) so eager to get to his victim that he is frantic. Frantic really doesnt work if he cant be guided, cant think about where he is etc. It has been a balance with him to have him in drive vs responsive to me. He has always been very goal oriented and very desirous of getting his toy (to the point of pushy at the victim which had to be cleaned up). The new behaviour I see now is that the frantic seems to have disappeared.

I think my main question is a drive question and how it changes (or rather presents itself) as the dog matures. And how to interpret it and modify my training.....


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Have you tried to switch his reward to something "He can't live without."


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I too interpret it as lack of drive. With some dogs it appears they have a lot of drive, but lack the desire to really go look for the item regardless of the circumstances. I see this as low prey drive...perhaps not pet dog dead low, as the dog loves to play, but the actual prey drive is low. With a true high drive dog, lack of movement of the tug shouldn't even be a problem. They go in drive at the very thought of it.

Maturity as for my experience does calm a dog down, but drive if it's there will remain, only it will be more focused and in a good dog, a lot more intense. 

That said that's only my interpretation from what you said and of course I don't know your dog, so it could be anything. I can't comment on anything SAR related...for working the drive on the tug though, have you tried Bernhard Flinks' DVD? If you have go back to basics. I really like Flinks' method in increasing intensity in drive...IF the drive is there.


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## Russ Spencer (Jun 2, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I dont post much, but I do lurk to try to learn to be a better trainer. I have a 3.5yr old (east german) working line gsd. He is training as a wilderness and urban SAR dog. He has always seemed very high drive with a tendency to get a bit hectic if over stimulated. He seems to have changed lately. My main question is about maturity, how to interpret changes in your dog as they age and how you change your training.


My experience with DDR dogs and maturity tends to follow the 'rule of thumb' that they don't mature until they are 18-24 months. Your guy is well past that, so I would have to say it is not a maturity issue. Beyond that, I can't help you. G'luck


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer M - 
You wouldn't by chance be coming to the CSST training in Connecticut next week, would you??? I know a few people from NJTF-1 are coming up for the class. If so, we can evaluate the issue and help you devise a training plan to fix it. I hesitate to give you advice over the internet (a number of things could be going on and I'd like to see it first hand rather than guessing), but you are more than welcome to come train with us in Connecticut (CTTF-1) any time. We train every weekend.

Otherwise, if that's not a possibility, I would highly recommend you seek the help of Elizabeth Kreitler from VATF-1. She travels quite a bit to help folks with USAR training and is the best of the best on the East Coast. She is a no nonsense trainer and won't water anything down. If you want up front and honest help, she'll be more than happy to give it. I can pass along her contact info if you don't have it already.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks for the thoughts everyone!

I think that I may be expecting too much out of him too quickly. I think the behaviour I saw in him was confusion--he might be a little confused as to what his task is. I dont believe drive is the issue. If it were only my interpretation of him, I might think so, but experienced urban trainers have been impressed with his drive.

I worked him on the 'easy' rubble several days after our 'bad' day. I changed his toy to the balls (from tugs). He was rip roaring ready to go and was very fast to get to his victim. I had made the realization that at this training site I focus on only one thing--hidden victim in the rubble. At my team training we work on Agility, bark barrel, obedience and rubble. I am going to back it off to just bark barrel and rubble (which are related--barking at a hidden victim) for a while and do my agility somewhere else.

Our next training on the 'hard' rubble I did the same problem that we did on our 'bad' day, but I let him see the victim climb on the pile, call him and show his toys, then climb out of sight and hide. He was very motivated and went right over the rubble to his victim and did a good bark. He also got better play with the victim--we have probably been short changing him.

I appreciate the ideas from everyone. I know it is hard to give advice when you cant see the dog. This is my first dog training up to this level, so I am learning to read and interpret my dog everyday. I have some good people to train with, but love to be able to get a wide range of ideas on the forums!!


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi Konnie

We must have been posting at the same time. Yes I will be in Ct next week and look foward to the class. I also look foward to learning more about dog training!!!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer - 
I look forward to meeting you and your dog!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Hey Jennifer,

I have been away at a course (non dog related  ) and am very happy to see that Konnie found your post and that you guys are getting together to train! Like you said, so difficult to describe things via internet.

Let us know how it is going when you can!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> It seems to me he needs more reward. We have kept the rewards quiet--he gets his tugs, but the victim plays quietly and also strokes him while rewarding. Maybe I need to have more enthusiastic play for the rubble.....Maybe we need to get him more engaged before sending him to search.


In case anybody wanted a follow-up to this, I met Griff and Jennifer this week. He's a great dog with really nice drives. He absolutely has the drive to do disaster SAR work (or really any type of work). All in all, Jennifer has done a great job of training/handling him so far. My assessment of his training issue is related to the above quote. In toning down the reward, some of his intensity in the work was lost. We upped the reward (and also started him on our "focused scenting method") and he had a very successful week of training. 

We tweaked a few other training-related things to make training more black and white for him, and I'm sure he'll be ready for certification soon!


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Thanks for the update! Way to go Jennifer!!! We need some photos of the two of you.  Sounds like you had an awesome week of training. Would love to hear all about it! I didn't respond to your last email because I knew you'd be away. Risa and I are off to PA this weekend to do some SAR training.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Better than photos, ask Jennifer to show you the news videos!!! Griff is now a TV star!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> In case anybody wanted a follow-up to this, I met Griff and Jennifer this week. He's a great dog with really nice drives. He absolutely has the drive to do disaster SAR work (or really any type of work). All in all, Jennifer has done a great job of training/handling him so far. My assessment of his training issue is related to the above quote. In toning down the reward, some of his intensity in the work was lost. We upped the reward (and also started him on our "focused scenting method") and he had a very successful week of training.
> 
> We tweaked a few other training-related things to make training more black and white for him, and I'm sure he'll be ready for certification soon!


Awesome! Thanks for the follow up. So stoked you guys met up. I am jealous of the bigger numbers of sar handlers in the states and bigger networks of folks to train with. Great way to learn new stuff. I would love to try out some of that "focused scenting method" stuff:grin: 

Jennifer, I would love to see this "TV star" in action!

WE WANT VIDEO:lol:


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Hey Konnie--when did you get time to post, shouldnt you be setting up a test right now?????

Konnie is right, is was a great week of training. I learned a lot and it really got reinforced that I need to be comfortable training Griffin in drive. He's got it, he has matured and he is better at capping it. So my training had to change.

We will be taking a type II evaluation tomorrow (for me this is a pretest not a certification). So wish us luck!!

Griffin got a lot of air time this week--not something we expected when coming to this class. 2 different reporters came out on 2 days and each did a clip. Griffin got to show off his agility for the first reporter and got to find a victim plus participating in 2 sound blurbs (the reporter tugged with him for the intro and the final shot).
if you go to http://www.wtnh.com/ and type k9 training, the clip should be on the top.

going to http://www.fox61.com/ and typing ct dog into the search box should bring up the first (Tues) reporters piece. His was a very nice piece for search dogs in general I think.

Of course--Konnie can tell us that "the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line" (her sound bite!!)


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Good luck Jen, I really enjoyed the clips!O 

Looks like it is a great course.

Keep up the good work!


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Konnie:

Your husband Mark; and Teresa are always the voice of logic and experience. Very nice Fox61 clip.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks, Melody. I'll pass that along to Mark (although notice in one of the clips they call him "John.")!


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

I could only get the one clip to come up. But it was very nice and well done, very comprehensive without unnecessary hype so typical for media.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

I could only get the one clip to come up. But it was very nice and well done, very comprehensive without unnecessary hype so typical for media.

Guess the media calling Mark, John was one of those #-o moments.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Just to update the update: Griffin and I tested yesterday. Originally I went up to Ct 'knowing' I would not be able to test because we needed to complete an in-house test first. I was allowed to use the Ct test as an in-house. Griffin did so well this week, I thought it would be a good experience for us.

He did very well. He passed 4 of the 5 elements: Obedience, directionals, bark alert and agility. He did very well on the rubble, but didnt alert on the second victim. So, even though I knew where the victim was due to his behavior, he didnt complete his job by barking. He did work well though, so I cant be disappointed in him--but I am disappointed that we did not pass. We were "this close"......

We had an overall great week. I learned a lot more about working him in drive and being comfortable with his energy and drive. I have all of October to work him before my official in house in Nov. Hopefully all we have to complete is the rubble and he will be more ready.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Just a note - it was pouring rain during the search portion of the evaluation. The search conditions were very difficult and deteriorated rapidly as the evaluation progressed. Griff worked hard and Jennifer did a nice job handling him.

Only 4 of the 10 teams testing passed the evaluation!


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