# Muzzle the Vet



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

How many folks use a Vet who wants to muzzle your dog before an exam or shots can take place? I'm taking working dogs here and not the run of the mill pet grade pooch. I have to remind the Vet and Vet Tech that I and I alone handle my dogs. Too many times the VT wants to go head to head with the dog to "secure" them for shots or exams...wrong move.

Those who own hard working dogs and the Vets who see them know that you NEVER go face to face or spend long moments at their back door. I have used two ex-military Vets whose background was with working dogs and they knew the proper techniques. I also do not muzzle. A muzzle, in my mind, only amplifies the issue. I continue to talk to my dogs to reinforce the positive behaviors that I want to see. 

At the end of the session, I allow the Vet or VT to give them a treat, to make the experience as positive as possible.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

I always handle my dog.

I do not muzzle my dog at the vet, but would if I thought it necessary. I don't think it is a bad thing to get a dog used to wearing a muzzle.

Some dogs (regardless of how hard/serious) are happy to be examined and others are not. It is down to the owner to explain to the vet what the dog will and will not tolerate.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

My vet trusts me enough to handle and hold my own dogs. Thankfully he permits me to decide if my dogs require to be muzzled or not. I do muzzle my dogs if we are going to be in the waiting room with "pet" owners who apparantly have no clue about how to control their "charges" and permit them to check out/ go up to every dog and person in the place. Not that I can't control my dogs, but I prefer not taking any chance at making the headlines. All my dogs have no problem wearing a muzzle, it's no big deal to them. We all know a police dog/working dog will be the culprit no matter what. I do have one female Malinois (Coda) that needs to be muzzled during examination, once in the examining room I take the muzzles off the other three.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I always handle my own dogs and only go to vets that understand this means everywhere. As far as muzzled, it depends on the dog and the reason for the trip. I think its important that the dog be completely desensitized to the muzzle before hand so that it is not adding anxiety but I would not go to a vet that insisted that they be muzzled (too obvious that they are afraid of the dog). If they're injured, I'd probably muzzle them just to be on the safe side but most of my dogs are very tolerant of strangers as long as I'm present.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I've never been asked to use a muzzle on any of my dogs, and honestly, I've never felt there was a need to. Jak is so outgoing that I don't worry about him at all, and so far, Deja has shown that she's okay with other people as long as I say they are, so I don't think she would need to be muzzled, either. Jessie was always a bit skitterish when I took her to the vet, but she never showed any inclination to bite or anything, so no muzzle was used on her, either. 

As far as going back with them, with Jak, I don't feel there's any need, and I haven't taken Deja to the vet yet, so I'll just have to wait and see. I will probably go back with _her_, though.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I don't why muzzling a working dog should be a big deal really. It is just another tool that like a leash or a collar, that the dog that for all intents and purposes the dog should be neutral to its use. 

If a dog gets a muzzle put on and makes a big scene or the muzzle amplifies BS behaviour. Well then to me the training groundwork for the muzzle has not been done properly, sorry. 

I try to condition train my dog to a muzzle daily as for French Ring the dogs neutrality to the muzzle is worth points in a trial. 

My dog doesn't care about the muzzle for her it is just part of the kit.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Geoff, I don't think anyone was indicating that the muzzle was a big deal. I think the topic was more about vets and those that have issues with a working dog handler being able to control their dog or requiring a muzzle.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kristina that was my point and a muzzle IS a big deal if the dog is not trained to use and/or wear one. Depending upon the type, they can be an issue many dogs do not want to wear. We use them to help build the dog in muzzle attacks, it is then taken off for live bites on the suit. I have never had to make one of my working dogs wear one. I would in transporting the dog into the room, by it would come off once inside.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kristina Senter said:


> Geoff, I don't think anyone was indicating that the muzzle was a big deal. I think the topic was more about vets and those that have issues with a working dog handler being able to control their dog or requiring a muzzle.



I know that and I'll still say that no matter what  situation your dog is in if it is at the vet or at the queen of england's palace. It shouldn't matter to the dog and the handler if an outside party wants or requires a muzzle on a dog. 

Really it is all about the comfort level of the vet or vet tech. They are the professionals in the line of fire when they stick the needle into the dog or do a rectal exam whatever the situation is. 

So why put ourselves to be reactive to using a muzzle, if being proactive, just training for it just takes that reactiveness out of the equation. 

Or maybe I'm not reading it right, that it is a ego thing having a lowly VT or DVM tell a handler that they require a muzzle on their dog before an exam??


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Kristina that was my point and a muzzle IS a big deal if the dog is not trained to use and/or wear one.


It's just a training/conditioning issue then. Not a big deal. 2 minutes a day is all it would take.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

My apologies. I guess I dont really understand what the issue is, then. 
Of course the muzzle is a big deal if the dog is not trained to it. It's extremely simple if the dog is. 
If there is a chance of your dog biting anyone (whether in a purposeful deployment for police, on the sport field or if you just don't trust your dog) the dog should be deconditioned to wearing a muzzle.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

OK gang, I'm seeing both sides here. 1. If the Vet has comfort issues, stay home. Find a new job and don't work with animals. Cats can fly into a spaz attack, but we don't declaw them. Birds can bite folks, but we don't saw off their beak. I'm not going to *condition *my dog to a piece of equipment if and when I can handle my own dog, the point of this post. 2. If an office *REQUIRES* it and I'm sure some do, then I have a choice to do business there and to comply or to find a new place. Simple.

Again the point was does your Vet or VT require and/or can you handle your own dog. All of the Vets who I use and know the type of dogs that I have go 100% on my judgement. They know my handling skills and why I tell them NOT to let some VT body wrap the head of a working dog that could spin on a dime on eat their face.

Again, we do some muzzle fighting or attacks. And the muzzle isn't like a collar, collars don't cover the defense tool of a dog...the face!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've only been asked to muzzle my older GSD once when I had him tattooed. He wanted to eat the guy with thae needle but I calmed him with a litte talk and we continued. 
My JRT I muzzle voluntarily. Trying to stick a needle in a chain saw can be exciting. He'll fight physical containment. He's used to the muzzle from his younger raceing days.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

I am lucky I guess, My vets and VTs request that I hold the dog during examinations and during injections. No need to have them muzzled (sp?) Also, they have all expressed understanding that were it to become a problem they would allow me to perform the injections while they observed. This has never had to happen yet and I hope the need never arises but I do appreciate their understanding. 
I suppose if I had a problem I would definately find another vet because I feel that a good relationship with your vet and mutual understanding of each other's interests makes it a much better visit to be had by all. If you do not like your vet I am certain that the dog is able to cue on that which may in turn only heighten the negative expirience to be had by the dog. Thats just my 2.5 cents.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Cats can fly into a spaz attack, but we don't declaw them. Birds can bite folks, but we don't saw off their beak.


No, but nobody is saying you have to pull out your dogs canines either. Cats and birds are routinely wrapped in towels (ie "muzzled") so an exam can be done, or restrained by a tech wearing heavy leather gloves. They are also all of 1-20 lbs, not 80 or more.



> If an office *REQUIRES* it and I'm sure some do, then I have a choice to do business there and to comply or to find a new place. Simple.


I agree, if an office wants you to do something you don't want to do, then don't use them. You can probably find someone else who will meet your requirements regarding how your dogs are handled.

That said, I don't think a vet asking, or even requiring, an owner to muzzle their dog is a big deal. There are liability issues involved for one thing. What if the owner says "I can handle Rover, don't worry about it" and Rover bites the owner? The vet can be sued, as stupid as that sounds. And if the dog is used to the muzzle, what's wrong with a little saftey factor? I don't put my seatbelt on because I expect to get into an accident, but just in case I do.



> Again the point was does your Vet or VT require and/or can you handle your own dog. All of the Vets who I use and know the type of dogs that I have go 100% on my judgement.


My vet trusts my judgement. If I tell them it would be better if I stay with the dog, or handle the dog myself, they are fine with that. Sometimes they do ask a tech to back me up, just in case. I've assisted with surgeries, xrays, ultrasounds, and many other basic procedures. But one reason they trust my judgement is that they know I have no qualms about putting a muzzle on a dog, just in case. That their safety is one of my top priorities. Sure I can handle my own dogs, but accidents do happen. Sometimes what the vet needs to do is painful, or the dog I'm taking in I have never taken to the vet before, and it's an adult so I don't know it's "history" with vet visits. I'd rather the dog be muzzled just in case, then everyone can relax a little and concentrate more on what needs to be done. And many times the dog will react to that, and relax itself. I've also had dogs that would try to fight if not muzzled, but the second the muzzle went on, would just resign themselves to whatever was going to happen.



> Again, we do some muzzle fighting or attacks. And the muzzle isn't like a collar, collars don't cover the defense tool of a dog...the face!


I do this with my dogs to, but I also just put the muzzle on and we go for a walk. I don't want my dogs to associate the muzzle with anything. It doesn't mean go into drive we are going to kick some a$$, it doesn't mean bad things will happen at the vets, it doesn't mean anything. It's no different then putting a collar on, or putting a leash on.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi said;
"No, but nobody is saying you have to pull out your dogs canines either. Cats and birds are routinely wrapped in towels (ie "muzzled") so an exam can be done, or restrained by a tech wearing heavy leather gloves. They are also all of 1-20 lbs, not 80 or more."

I routinly do the nails on a friends 3 parrots. even though we wrap them in a towel, I'd stil rather clean the teeth on a wide awake junkyard dog.  
Do they make a muzzle for parrots? :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I handle my own dog at the vets office. In situations where the vet needs to handle the dog without me (hip xrays for OFA) we always muzzle the dog first.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Kadi said;
> "No, but nobody is saying you have to pull out your dogs canines either. Cats and birds are routinely wrapped in towels (ie "muzzled") so an exam can be done, or restrained by a tech wearing heavy leather gloves. They are also all of 1-20 lbs, not 80 or more."
> 
> I routinly do the nails on a friends 3 parrots. even though we wrap them in a towel, I'd stil rather clean the teeth on a wide awake junkyard dog.
> Do they make a muzzle for parrots? :lol:


I don't think so Bob, but they should. 
My parents had an African Grey and I used to do nail and wing trims on him so I totally agree with Bob on the teeth cleaning comment........YIKES them beaks can getcha!!!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> No, but nobody is saying you have to pull out your dogs canines either. .


Sorry my boy snapped them off fighting with the dog house and kennel...and much to the delight of my decoys! :lol:


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

On the parrot note - I took a three day continuing education course that was JUST on the proper techniques of handling birds for medical and grooming procedures. I still SUCK at it. My board cert avian vet can snatch up a thrashing hyacinth without blinking an eye or even getting a scratch. I have lots of chew toys and pedicure perches for my macaw, and she's free flighted, so thank GOD I never have to wrestle her!! (I don't think I would win.)

On the dog note - whenever the vet discussion like this comes up, I feel obliged to simply remind that the lovely and knowledgable people on this forum *are not in any way, shape, or form* the average dog owner. Once you have developed a relationship with your vet and established the fact that you indeed know what you are doing, there is no reason why you should not be allowed to handle your dogs. BUT - I have seen, MANY times, doctors or technicians that were bitten or nearly bitten because the client insisted on holding their pet and didn't hold them tightly or properly. I have also seen CLIENTS that were bitten by their own animals during procedures. Unfortunately, when it comes to liability, sometimes you have to assume the worst until you know better. I'm not saying that the vet should routinely muzzle your animals, but most experienced vets are good at reading animals , too. If you are experienced in handling and prove to the vet that you are safe, then by all means, hold your own dog. But most people are NOT vet techs, and for some procedures, the dog is going to need to leave the client to go to the back (Xrays, surgery, whatever.) Some vets choose to let old clients into the back to assist, but it's usually when they know them well enough to take a risk on their liability insurance.

Furthermore, I don't care whether you have a schutzhund dog, a SAR dog, or a rough and tough PPD dog - one of the first things you should teach the dog is that when you tell it to stand there for an exam, IT HAD BETTER. I have a dog that is a nutcase liability on four legs - she doesn't have to be muzzled at the vet if I'm there. Not for her echocardiogram, not to have her CERFs done, nothing. She learned from a young age that if mommy holds her and tells her to stand still, she better stand still and behave. Granted, she might go ballistic if someone else tries to take her out of the runs in the back of the hospital, but I as her handler should at least have some control over her, otherwise, I have no business owning a dog like that. Just my two cents.

p.s. she is used to a muzzle, if she has to wear one.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Great points Amber, as a former vet assistant for several animal hospitals, I agree 100%


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree, very good post Amber.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> That said, I don't think a vet asking, or even requiring, an owner to muzzle their dog is a big deal. There are liability issues involved for one thing. What if the owner says "I can handle Rover, don't worry about it" and Rover bites the owner? The vet can be sued, as stupid as that sounds. And if the dog is used to the muzzle, what's wrong with a little saftey factor? I don't put my seatbelt on because I expect to get into an accident, but just in case I do.





Amber Scott said:


> On the dog note - whenever the vet discussion like this comes up, I feel obliged to simply remind that the lovely and knowledgable people on this forum *are not in any way, shape, or form* the average dog owner. Once you have developed a relationship with your vet and established the fact that you indeed know what you are doing, there is no reason why you should not be allowed to handle your dogs. BUT - I have seen, MANY times, doctors or technicians that were bitten or nearly bitten because the client insisted on holding their pet and didn't hold them tightly or properly. I have also seen CLIENTS that were bitten by their own animals during procedures. Unfortunately, when it comes to liability, sometimes you have to assume the worst until you know better. I'm not saying that the vet should routinely muzzle your animals, but most experienced vets are good at reading animals , too. If you are experienced in handling and prove to the vet that you are safe, then by all means, hold your own dog. But most people are NOT vet techs, and for some procedures, the dog is going to need to leave the client to go to the back (Xrays, surgery, whatever.) Some vets choose to let old clients into the back to assist, but it's usually when they know them well enough to take a risk on their liability insurance.



Yes, yes, and YES to both Kadi and Amber. It is a BIG potential liability for your techs (who you'd have to pay worker's comp for treating a dog bite or cat bite/scratch), your clients (who would gladly sue you), and you (if you don't have disability insurance and especially in large animal, if you're seriously hurt, can't be a vet any more!) just to have the average owner hold their ill-tempered little Poopsie. But if you have a long established relationship, that's a little different. Now, that being said, I will try to minimize stress to the dog in a couple ways. Vet techs and receptionists are not allowed to baby talk to the dogs and I will personally not want to wear a lab coat. They may look nicer, but a lot of dogs do NOT like the way they flutter.

I wish more vets would use the light plastic basket muzzles and NOT the cloth muzzles. Those are so much more confining and the dog can't even pant, which just makes them more worked up, even if they look more PC. Speaking of Calming Caps, have you guys seen the Happy Muzzle? *huge :roll::roll::roll: * Cause if they look happy...they must not be dangerous!

http://www.doginthecity.net/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

"have you guys seen the Happy Muzzle? *huge * Cause if they look happy...they must not be dangerous!"

Oh. My. God.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

"I wish more vets would use the light plastic basket muzzles and NOT the cloth muzzles. "

Absolutely.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> "have you guys seen the Happy Muzzle? *huge * Cause if they look happy...they must not be dangerous!"
> 
> Oh. My. God.


My JRT always looks happy at the vets..............well............maybe all those teeth aren't from grinning! 
My vet and I have complete trust in one another but my JRT is just plain nasty. Short of sedation, physical pressure on him just fuels the fire. 
With my GSDs I can at least grab them by the jowels and tell them to knock it off.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have no problem with muzzling my dogs at the vets. I have OK TO MUZZLE in my file, because apparently there are a lot of people who get very offended if the vet wants to muzzle their dog. I really don't want my dogs be able to make contact with their teeth and I would sooner take a simple step to prevent that. 

For routine visits, I use a head halter - gives me better physical control of their heads, and then a situation doesn't escalate - whatever needs to be done, gets done quickly and easily and is over. Time for cookies.

A friend was bitten in the wrist by a beagle. Six weeks lost from work, infection in the bone, and surgery to repair ligament damage. From a single bite from a 30 pound dog. I do not like to think of the damage my 100 lb dog could inflict and how that could impact someone's career.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

When I was in high school, our vet let me "assist" him a couple of days a week during one summer. One of the first things I had to do was hold a couple of damn squirmy ferrets for their vaccinations, and I sure did get bit. Put me off wanting to be a vet!


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I haven't seen happy muzzles... LOL 

we had big leather basket muzzles, almost similar to agitation style muzzles. I liked them, but I'd imagine they would be a lot more expensive. The practice I worked at has been open since the fifties, and those muzzles were OLD. They actually sent them to a tack shop every couple of years to have them repaired and reinforced, I guess because "they just don't make 'em like that any more." :lol:


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm OK with the vet muzzling my dogs too. In fact I have an Australian Shepherd that I would prefer they muzzle and tell them that! After having to file many workman's comp claims for techs who were bitten I would rather be safe than sorry. (Of course we had more cat bites and scratches than dog bites at the practice.) Since many practices do not train staff to understand animal behavior or proper restraint I also don't want a tech or dr. being defensive or jumpy because they "think" they might get bit and cause issues with my dogs. 

Terry Fisk
www.firecreeks.com
www.showandsport.com


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

my vet leaves it totally up to me, he trusts my judgement and I trust his! He beleives "less restraint is more" with my dogs and lets me handle them while he does his exam or gives any shots and for routine exams muzzling has never been an issue. I did request a muzzle when my female was in getting her staples looked at and then removed from when she was attacked by the neighbor's dog; I also ask to put the muzzle on if they ever need to take the dog back into the room (i.e. staples/sutures) and I'm not going back with the dog (the vet has offered me the opportunity to go in back but I am rediculously squeamish when it comes to anything with blood).


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i had only one problem with a vet re: muzzling one of my dogs. i brought my first GSD in with a 3" gash across his ribs, when the vet appeared in the doorway of the exam room, my dog growled. i told the vet that we could muzzle the dog, it would be no problem, so he could take a closer look at the wound.

vet said "no, i can see it fine from here (10' away), he doesn't need stitches for that". 

i will never forget that. this is the same vet that said he would rather work on a Dobe than a GSD, because Dobes have an "on/off switch", and GSD "think too much". needless to say, he never got my business in the future. 

and the gash healed up ok without stitches. but if this guy was scared of my dog, why would i want him in a crisis? nope, not me.

i agree that our dogs must be desensitized to muzzles. it's just smart. and if there ever comes a time when i'm not able to hold my dogs, i want them to NOT be stressed when muzzled. just another part of the kit, no biggie...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I teach all my handlers a hasty muzzle. An injured dog is not always the most cooperative animal. The muzzle is applied by wrapping the leash twice around the dogs neck. then take the trailing end of the leash along side the muzzle, wrap the leash once around the muzzle and take the trailing end back to the neck. Grasp the leash around the neck and the trailing end of the leash with the right hand, with your arm under the dogs neck. From this position the dog can be lifted to a table, carried and pretty well controlled. I make each of them practice it several times. It can be done in less than 45 seconds.

DFrost


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Yeah David, Cesar Milan used that technique once on an episode where he was helping incarcerated women rehabilitate rescued dogs. 

Cesar was trying to an inmate clip what I remember as a Chow crossbreed nails. The dog nailed him on the arm Cesar was bleeding pretty bad actually.

He just calmly made the same improved muzzle with the lead as you described. He then went ahead and clipped the dog's nails with him bleeding and all. When he was done the nails he gave the dog a massage, so that the dog would be relaxed and end the clipping on a good note. That's when Cesar got first aid for the dog bite. 

I got a whole lot more respect for the man after that episode. 

I tried that improv muzzle on my dog just so I would know how to do it if I ever needed it and it works like a charm in a pinch.


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