# Presa Canario for PP



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Does anyone have any thoughts on this breed for PP. I have a friend that wants to get one, but is having a hard time finding a good breeder. So I figured I 'd ask around here


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Todd, 
They are a Mastiff breed, that is the original (about ten thousand years breed for protection and guard work) Tell your friend to get a breeder with a really solid health gaurentee and the work will follow with 99.5 % of any of the dogs he could choose.

Breeders are basically capable of getting you a structurally sound dog. Breeds have their purpose, usually a few hundred years in practice. That is how they became a breed

If you choose a guardian breed, like most mastiffs the dog has what it takes to do the job, if the breeder gets a healthy litter any competent trainer can show you how to do the rest.

Check out health guarentees from breeders, and trainers that deal with a variety of breeds instead off one breed, one sport, one dimensional types, and you'r friend will do fine.


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## Ashley Hiebing (Apr 6, 2008)

http://www.red-star-kennel.com/default-frames.htm


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Yeah I new about Red Star years ago. Just have to wait for a litter announcement. Who knows when that'll be. I see they breed the Malinois now too


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is because Alex is gone. He was the one with the passion for that breed. If you are looking for a dog to go out and do "work" then I think that you will be disappointed with this breed. If you are wanting to train and have fun, try something else.

I am not saying you won't have fun with a PC, most people that want to do PP end up liking the training and start seeing that their off breed is limited as to what they will do. People will always point out the ONE (out of thousands) that does Sch, or whatever, so keep that in mind.

My personal experience is that they are not necessarily "working" dogs, but pretty cool to hang out with.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"That is because Alex is gone. He was the one with the passion for that breed"

I don't know about that, Alex started with GSDs. Irina and Mark are still both very into the breed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Who cares, the breed is still pretty much junk. If you have ever seen them half assing everything....which they all do......... whatever, besides the point, LOL.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Jeff, That's exactly what I thought of the breed, not very much "drive" or enthusiasm for the work, from some of the videos I have seen, but a good detterent just on looks. Looks like their pretty defensive, but not alot of prey drive, so my guess is obediance would be a little more challenging.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Why not call up Irina and talk to her. I was interested in the breed after watching a dog from the kennel working. She was very open with me. I think Irina and Mark are great. If you get a chance to visit their kennel, DO!


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

I really don't like to do any message board drama, but! I really feel there may be some mis-information involved in the last two posts about the Presa. 

Two people have made a blanket statement that the *breed* is "Junk" or has "Not much drive for the work"

There are many statements made by people on the great www like, "This breed has been ruined by show people" or  "the breed is still pretty much junk. If you have ever seen them half assing everything....which they all do." I have to question where the facts for these statements come from? After all, some one is coming to this board for what they hope is solid information, about a dog they hope to spend a long time with. Don't we owe them accurate info?

I gave it a quick look and it seems there are several *thousand* Presa's registered every year. There are many *hundreds *of breed shows being held, and hundreds of Presa's that show in other venues like K9 Pro Sport, Irondog, etc. 

Now we all know that opinions are like belly buttons, and some have innies, and other have outies, and we are all entitled to ours. But if we set our selves up as an expert, to help someone, shouldn't we have more than a bellybutton? Shouldn't we have some actual experience in the field of the question?

So I am asking those that have a negative opinion of the breed to also post, how many of the several thousand Presa's, that are registered every year, they have worked with, or even just watched. Out of thousands you should have seen at least hundreds? 

Which of those hundreds of shows did you participate in to come to your conclusions that; "Not much drive for the work" or  "the breed is still pretty much junk. If you have ever seen them half assing everything...*.which they all do*." You must have seen how many? Can you share that with us?


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I'll clarify my post!!! Compared to GSD or Mals their intensity seems to be less, from what I have seen. I'm not saying there not good, just not the intensity that I am used to. Theres good and bad in any breed, maybe I just haven't seen a real good one in person, or on the internet yet, except for maybe RSK's


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Butch Cappel said:


> I really don't like to do any message board drama, but! I really feel there may be some mis-information involved in the last two posts about the Presa.
> 
> Two people have made a blanket statement that the *breed* is "Junk" or has "Not much drive for the work"
> 
> ...


This should be good:-k


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I also never heard of this breed until that lady in San Fransisco got mauled to death by 2 presa's a few years ago. Then all of the sudden people wanted them. While looking for a good breeder, I also came across a couple of sites that marketed this breed as a pitbull on steroids, which to me, sent me looking somewhere else.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Not for or against the breed for personal protection but I do think if you read Jeff's original reply he states that if you are looking for a dog to "just hang out with" the PC may be a good choice. I do think a huge, mastiff type dog barking behind your fence is a better visual deterrant than a coy-dog (my beloved Malinois). Jeff asked for further information in the form of "If you are wanting to train and have fun, try something else". I took that to read that if you want something to hang out with the family and change your average burglar's mind, they should be fine but if you want to train and find pleasure in training or do sport, you might want to rethink the breed.

And using your example of thousands of Presas registered...just how many are out there playing any sport? At higher than a level one? At level three? At level three and on the podium?

So, I will use myself as an example. I have seen about a dozen Presas in my entire life. Over 15 years of my life have been dedicated to protection dog sports (NAPD, SchH, Mondio and French Ring) and I have traveled across country doing it. In this case the fact I have not seen "hundreds" seems to support Jeff's theory that they are not much fun to train.

Lisa


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Just saw this, it's about that mauling in San Fransisco years ago. The woman just got sentenced. Weird story! http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Sep22/0,4670,FatalDogMauling,00.html


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Not for or against the breed for personal protection but I do think if you read Jeff's original reply he states that if you are looking for a dog to "just hang out with" the PC may be a good choice. I do think a huge, mastiff type dog barking behind your fence is a better visual deterrant than a coy-dog (my beloved Malinois). Jeff asked for further information in the form of "If you are wanting to train and have fun, try something else". I took that to read that if you want something to hang out with the family and change your average burglar's mind, they should be fine but if you want to train and find pleasure in training or do sport, you might want to rethink the breed.
> 
> And using your example of thousands of Presas registered...just how many are out there playing any sport? At higher than a level one? At level three? At level three and on the podium?
> 
> ...


There's a few around here Red Star is only a 1/2 hour from Minneapolis I have been friends with Alex and Irena well Irena now since they moved to the US Not my kind of dog ether I have seen them big monsters go over a 10' palisade no problem most I have seen have shit grips with lots of movement and shaking no good for schutzhund cant be much fun doing helper work in a suite ether.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've seen a number of them over the past 4-5 yrs, bot good and bad. We have a Presa breeder at club and her dogs aren't the monsters that some make them out to be. They easily can be but that's mostly crap, beat em till they bite, training. Very slow to mature but I think a good one has potential with the right handler and trainer. 
A number of the titled dogs in this country come from one of her stud dogs who is a Red Star bred dog. 
Check out our club site for some pics and you can follow the links to the breeder. 
I think you have to be very selective to find a good bully/mastiff type dog but I do think they are out there. To many of the bully breeds are trained with the "beat em till they bite" mentality. JMHO!
www.rwdc.org


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Todd, 
Thanks for a good clarification, I understand what you're saying.

I think this also said an awful lot ; "To many of the bully breeds are trained with the "beat em till they bite" mentality. JMHO!" 

AMEN!!


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## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

I will go ahead and add my 2 cents!!
Presa/Dogo Canarios reminds me alot of what is going on with the Shepherds.By that I mean you have your show lines and you have your working lines.The Gene pool is still no where near where need be to do this sort of thing.This breed was re-instated as a breed in the 80s,still has a long way to go to be able to show a steady amount of consistency.
I happened to own Presas,I showed them and worked them(Schutzhund,Iron Dog,PSA,etc)and titled one of them to Sch1.Do they have the drives that a Herding breed is going to have??Of course not!!!Can they tear you a new But-hole??Of course they can!!Is it for everyone??No!!At the same time a Mal or Shepherd is not everyone either!!
Bottom line is that if you choose a Presa for just looks and size there is a good chance that you would get just that!!But if you do your research and talk to some good breeders that breed for good working ethics then you will have the opportunity to see what one of these dogs are really capable of doing!!!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

:?


Jose' Abril said:


> I will go ahead and add my 2 cents!!
> Presa/Dogo Canarios reminds me alot of what is going on with the Shepherds.By that I mean you have your show lines and you have your working lines.The Gene pool is still no where near where need be to do this sort of thing.This breed was re-instated as a breed in the 80s,still has a long way to go to be able to show a steady amount of consistency.
> I happened to own Presas,I showed them and worked them(Schutzhund,Iron Dog,PSA,etc)and titled one of them to Sch1.Do they have the drives that a Herding breed is going to have??Of course not!!!Can they tear you a new But-hole??Of course they can!!Is it for everyone??No!!At the same time a Mal or Shepherd is not everyone either!!
> Bottom line is that if you choose a Presa for just looks and size there is a good chance that you would get just that!!But if you do your research and talk to some good breeders that breed for good working ethics then you will have the opportunity to see what one of these dogs are really capable of doing!!!


Nice ghetto chain:-?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike, that's the first thing i noticed even before the dog, lol. Stupid ass ghetto crap, see it downtown a lot and i always feel sorry for the dogs.


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## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> :?
> Nice ghetto chain:-?


I will make sure the ghetto returns it when they are finished!![-X


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

That looks like the same size chain they use to hold elephants at the zoo:roll: ... Shit, that must be one strong dog!!:-D :-\"


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

that chain is terrible, and is so stereotypical of the breed. 

I work a gsd as my service dog, worked a mali in sport & also work a bulldog in sport. I am very confident i could get the bulldog through a police licensing course easily as he has all the attributes.

However he just isnt as well rounded to live in service as a gsd or Mali is. I could see a role for these type of breeds in relation to say Tactical firearms work but i cant see it happening due to tradition & stereotypes, i speak only for my own country


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Mike, that's the first thing i noticed even before the dog, lol. Stupid ass ghetto crap, see it downtown a lot and i always feel sorry for the dogs.


Me too. It makes it clear what the dog's purpose _really_ is. Make that handler look baaaaad. 


JMHO. Why would anyone want to become just another representative of a big ol' stereotype?


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## Ashley Hiebing (Apr 6, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Me too. It makes it clear what the dog's purpose _really_ is. Make that handler look baaaaad.
> 
> 
> JMHO. Why would anyone want to become just another representative of a big ol' stereotype?



I dunno, you should ask the ghetto-trash bum in the stained wife-beater who asked me the other day if I would breed my (neutered, even!) pit bull to his "bitch." And I know I shouldn't judge people but c'mon, it's almost painfully obvious when people buy into labels like that.


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## Jeremy Norton (Apr 4, 2007)

Stepping away from ugly and/or dumb stereotyping of all sorts, I'd have to say that those who love a breed and are willing to slog through the bias, dismissive trainers & judges, inherent limitations of breed, etc, to work with their chosen dog--go for it. Props to you.

I had a fun presa from Red Star; he was really interesting to learn with and to train. I had to place him at two years (wife's not into dogs and we had lapse in pecking order in the house), but we had a solid foundation for PSA and MR going. Could we have gotten out of the 1s? Unlikely, but not impossible. Could we have 'won' or hit the 3s? Unlikely and not possible. But he was cool and fun to work. 

Still, of the bullbreeds, the ABs seem the best able to have a chance at performing well--and there're miles of uphill battles in/out of the breed to get the dogs bred functionally.
Here's a video of django d, taken up until he was two.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1027231635242984139&hl=en


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Looks good to me with my untrained eye, Jeremy! I'm not a fan of the breed and they're too slobbery for me, but looks like he was enjoying the work.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Jeremy, I was wondering if you own a sport dog now (gsd or mal), and if so, how easier was it to train the sport dog? Any major differences?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Jeremy, I was wondering if you own a sport dog now (gsd or mal), and if so, how easier was it to train the sport dog? Any major differences?


I think Jeremy now has a Mal I remember seeing him training the Presa


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## Jeremy Norton (Apr 4, 2007)

Mike is correct. 
It was a hard learning curve for me/us. 
I had a bullmastiff because the internet & breed books said it was a natural protector and I work 24-hour shifts and Annie can't stand dogs. I got into training and worked with the folks at Red Star. I got a presa and wanted to train it and learn, plus have a solid-nerved dog for the house when I'm at work. We placed the bullmastiff since I can't handle a dog I have to kick off the floor to take for a walk.

We don't deal drugs nor sell stolen goods nor beef with our neighbors; my 'need' for a serious home guardian was pretty slight. So I had a challenging-but-fun sport dog, the presa, I had to keep him kenneled when the kids had friends over, when non-dog people were over (majority of our collective friends, sadly); Annie doesn't 'get' the joys of dog and doesn't participate in the training, so there were pronounced hierarchy tensions. With my schedule, she HAS to be able to deal with any dog we have when I'm on shift. So: my 'home guardian' was kenneled all the time and caused endless headache/fear/tension, which made all situations worse, esp. when I was gone. 

If we lived in the country or Annie was into dogs or we had a need for a true home guardian, then we would have figured something out w/ django. But it wasn't. (And, a friend who disagrees w/ any protection training got scared by him and threatened to call child protection on us.)

Now I've got a sweet-yet-bonkers Mal pup and we got our old bullmastiff back. She is just the right level of home/land security for us: she sits around all day waiting for her next meal, but when her ten-gallon head blocks the door, only a TRULY determined petty thief would persist in opportunistic robbery. 

I've worked a fair number of presas. As anyone who really works the off-breeds says, there's such a difficult balance to achieve with them. Good nerves, good temperament, solid desire to do the work or work for you, health, stamina. Johnny Nicholson in Ohio (Grejon Kennel) is part of the IAPC program, and he has nice dogs he does IPO with. Cathy Thomas runs Oakleaf. Both are connected to Red Star's breeding lines. Irina and Mark at Red Star have good dogs--although there's always a challenge in balancing the drives. Too many dudes want the 'hard' dog and end up with more problems than they can handle. I couldn't handle that crap--yet another reason I'm not a breeder.

If I could manage another dog, I'd get an AB for fun. As Francis Metcalf said, Anyone who has a mal and says he's a good trainer is a liar... My pup makes me look brilliant. Shrike came out of the box ready for about anything. My job is to avoid stupid training.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm with you Jeff and Al.


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Jeremy Norton said:


> If I could manage another dog, I'd get an AB for fun. As Francis Metcalf said, Anyone who has a mal and says he's a good trainer is a liar... My pup makes me look brilliant. Shrike came out of the box ready for about anything. My job is to avoid stupid training.


This is an interesting quote Jeremy, I'm going to move it to it's own topic.
I would be interested in hearing other perspectives on it.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> I really don't like to do any message board drama, but!


So I guess you doctoring peoples post on your own board so you can try to look better doesn't qualify........ok. Yeah, I still haven't forgotten about that Butch. Its kinda hard to hide behind a keyboard here on the WDF though. Have a nice day.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jaydee?????


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Hey pop, I guess that would be Jaydee Cappel. Ha Ha. What an idot. Anyway, sorry to derail this thread but its just SO hard to overlook certain people and not to let the truth come out, you can't help but shake your head and laugh. But luckily life goes on.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I gave it a quick look and it seems there are several *thousand* Presa's registered every year. There are many *hundreds *of breed shows being held, and hundreds of Presa's that show in other venues like K9 Pro Sport, Irondog, etc. 

Butch, the original scambag. LOL Not for nothing, but I have seen a bit of the two jokes that you are talking about and while maybe the iron dog is fun for typical bull breed people with thier "ghetto chain" and complete lack of training, but you are not going to convince me that a presa isn't gonna break someones heart when they try to go further in honest sports....well, honest compared to pro sports/iron dog.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Now you're talking Jeff.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is one of the reasons I hate to see new people wanting to do this stuff asking about these breeds. They start off life looking like they are gonna do something, and at some point, thats it. They are heart breakers.....and when they are bigger, back breakers. LOL Not easy to work.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Some venues they may, key word may do ok but not as a real working dog. They haven't been bred for that.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Some venues they may, key word may do ok but not as a real working dog. They haven't been bred for that.


You mean like William The Refrigerator Perry taking up pro tennis?


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

So, Mr. Oehlsen, let me get this accurately, You stated "I have seen a Bit" 
And if that is correct as you have also seen "A bit" of the Presa breed and ""A bit" of a few other dog things. I certainly wouldn't disagree with such well researched comments.

Thank you, for all your positive & educational statements, I should direct my dog training students to them. 

I should, but we get Pee Wee Herman on cable!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

They still air Pee Wee Herman??


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Thats scary, he likes Pee Wee Herman. Ok then.


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