# Puppy power :-)



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Pups in training for Special Forces in India.

A'Tim daughter Dovre Fjeld Happy (4 mths old)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9aQifS9_Xc&feature=player_embedded

A'Tim daughters Sin & Saiga (16 & 18wks old)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSSkD-WRIG4&feature=player_embedded


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Those look like nice pups!


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Those look like nice pups!


you just have to wait a few months.....


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I met these guys at the HITS semiar last year. They had some cool videos and promotional info. I talked to them for a while and they are knowledgable people. I talked to some US SOCOM guys who tested some of the dogs from this group and they did not find one that passed there selection tests. They said the amount of stress the dogs showed under very normal bitework testing was very high, the grips shifted badly when even a little pressure was applied, and they just did not seem to be "free and open" during the tests. 
I think they start out with nice dogs, and i think they are good dog people, but I also believe the amount of stress they subject the dogs to causes the wheels to come off later.
Just my opinion, I myself have noe seen any of their adults live in person. But I do trust the opinion of the people who told me what they saw.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I met these guys at the HITS semiar last year. They had some cool videos and promotional info. I talked to them for a while and they are knowledgable people. I talked to some US SOCOM guys who tested some of the dogs from this group and they did not find one that passed there selection tests. They said the amount of stress the dogs showed under very normal bitework testing was very high, the grips shifted badly when even a little pressure was applied, and they just did not seem to be "free and open" during the tests.
> I think they start out with nice dogs, and i think they are good dog people, but I also believe the amount of stress they subject the dogs to causes the wheels to come off later.
> Just my opinion, I myself have noe seen any of their adults live in person. But I do trust the opinion of the people who told me what they saw.


Can't speak for this kennel and all the dogs they breed but those pups look nice. I'll bet it was the Dutch Shepherds from this kennel that your buddy tested.:wink:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> you just have to wait a few months.....


:smile: Can't wait!


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Now is Dovrefjeld and stealth paws the same kennel breeder/trainers. I have seen some of these videos before. I recognize the some of the agility exercises.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Jason Hammel said:


> Now is Dovrefjeld and stealth paws the same kennel breeder/trainers. I have seen some of these videos before. I recognize the some of the agility exercises.


From what I have seen on the website yes.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Couldnt agree more mike.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Why is it that every video I see from Asia has the dogs climbing around on monkey bars and shit?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Why is it that every video I see from Asia has the dogs climbing around on monkey bars and shit?


LOL funny.....

I'm gonna have to get me one of those Old Russian style suits. Look great for pups...anyone know if Elite has any left?


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Cause it's the Kung Fu dogs, dude!



Christopher Smith said:


> Why is it that every video I see from Asia has the dogs climbing around on monkey bars and shit?


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## Tamara Villagomez (Nov 28, 2009)

those are some impressive pups!!


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I talked to some US SOCOM guys who tested some of the dogs from this group and they did not find one that passed there selection tests. They said the amount of stress the dogs showed under very normal bitework testing was very high, the grips shifted badly when even a little pressure was applied, and they just did not seem to be "free and open" during the tests.
> I think they start out with nice dogs, and i think they are good dog people, but I also believe the amount of stress they subject the dogs to causes the wheels to come off later.
> Just my opinion, I myself have noe seen any of their adults live in person. But I do trust the opinion of the people who told me what they saw.


Maybe that's why they turned to other bloodlines? 
These dogs are far to young to have been tested last year. I have their litter mate (17 mths now) and he is a very strong dog too.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Maybe that's why they turned to other bloodlines?
> These dogs are far to young to have been tested last year. I have their litter mate (17 mths now) and he is a very strong dog too.


 I dont know which dogs the SOCOM guys tested, or how old the dogs were, but they just tested the dog pretty recently. they will test dogs that are around 14 months. I have sold them dogs as young as 13 months, but normally the dogs will have to be 18 months or so to pass the tests they do. 
I think the pups from Stealth Paws look nice, I was just saying that from what I have heard they are falling about from the pressure as they get older. Maybe the SF guys looked at dogs from different lines than these, I dont know.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Personally, I wouldn't do this kind of thing with a pup, certainly not the jumping off roofs stuff. I'm ok with the pressure, as long as they use their common sense and watch the pup's reaction. It's very easy to break a pup's confidence at this age.

This is the kind of puppy training we do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScW_JAcmxTw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkqipUPRFWs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2j2W4x8b20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RZYyda4Ldc


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I met these guys at the HITS semiar last year. They had some cool videos and promotional info. I talked to them for a while and they are knowledgable people. I talked to some US SOCOM guys who tested some of the dogs from this group and they did not find one that passed there selection tests. They said the amount of stress the dogs showed under very normal bitework testing was very high, the grips shifted badly when even a little pressure was applied, and they just did not seem to be "free and open" during the tests.
> I think they start out with nice dogs, and i think they are good dog people, but I also believe the amount of stress they subject the dogs to causes the wheels to come off later.
> Just my opinion, I myself have noe seen any of their adults live in person. But I do trust the opinion of the people who told me what they saw.



I agree with Mike. I boarded over 30 of their dogs here for a short time that he brought from Belgium then to Mexico. Then he ran into some trouble and moved them into California. Then ran into trouble with me for not paying the bill and moved to another State. Now he's in India? I don't think he can own a breeding program in Belgium due to violations. My suggestion STAY AWAY.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Personally, I wouldn't do this kind of thing with a pup, certainly not the jumping off roofs stuff. I'm ok with the pressure, as long as they use their common sense and watch the pup's reaction. It's very easy to break a pup's confidence at this age.
> 
> This is the kind of puppy training we do:
> 
> ...


To me this type of traiing makes sense. It is pretty similar to the type of stuff that I do here at my kennel. All of us have puppies that can do some pretty amazing stuff, the thing that I believe is important is to not let the puppies do too much too soon. Wether it be jumping off a building at too young of an age, or biting a full suit at too young of an age before it really understands how to bite correctly.
My thoughts are that if the puppy does it at 4 months, or 14 months, as long as he does it in the end that is all that matters. I think the best results always come from the trainers who take it slower than the dogs want to go. I just feel like the dogs have more confidence, more power, and better tecnique if the training goes a little slower.
Just my thoughts.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Debby, you clearly had an issue with these guys and I can't judge that because I don't know the people in India.
I was sharing a video of pups from my dog. I like their attitude and that's what the topic was about.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> To me this type of traiing makes sense. It is pretty similar to the type of stuff that I do here at my kennel. All of us have puppies that can do some pretty amazing stuff, the thing that I believe is important is to not let the puppies do too much too soon. Wether it be jumping off a building at too young of an age, or biting a full suit at too young of an age before it really understands how to bite correctly.
> My thoughts are that if the puppy does it at 4 months, or 14 months, as long as he does it in the end that is all that matters. I think the best results always come from the trainers who take it slower than the dogs want to go. I just feel like the dogs have more confidence, more power, and better tecnique if the training goes a little slower.
> Just my thoughts.


Totally agree. There's no such thing as an "age" when a pup "should" know something.
Every dog is different and a clever handler knows how to adapt to every single one.

Some dogs mature quickly and are on the full suit at 6mths of age, others need more time but I think this isn't a problem.
As long as the dog hasn't matured completely and doesn't have issues like lacking confidence, he'll get all the credit he needs. If I see things I don't like, then he won't stay.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> the thing that I believe is important is to not let the puppies do too much too soon. .


Golden rule! Good basic foundation is very important.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Debby, you clearly had an issue with these guys and I can't judge that because I don't know the people in India.
> I was sharing a video of pups from my dog. I like their attitude and that's what the topic was about.


YES, Absolutely have a problem with Andre V. 

I have an issue with bad animal husbandry, malnurished dogs, dog abuse, bad breeding, misrepresenting dogs and puppies for sale. I'm not alone in witnessing this in SoCal. There is a group of us here in the local Schutzhund and Ring Clubs that witnessed this and tried to help the dogs.

Nothing against you at all. 

But, should I not say what I know about him and his business practices and treatment of dogs? 

He's not in my backyard anymore. It's much easier to just not say and let people find out for themselves and then I wouldn't have to make this response back to you. I almost didn't type what I knew about him, but I think it's better that people know as the dogs can't speak for themselves.


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## Robin Cooke (Aug 25, 2009)

I appreciate your honesty and candor. I am sure it is appreciated by most. Since I think for myself I can do with your opinion what I want


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## katrin bellyeu (Nov 5, 2009)

very, very good!


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I met these guys at the HITS semiar last year. They had some cool videos and promotional info. I talked to them for a while and they are knowledgable people. I talked to some US SOCOM guys who tested some of the dogs from this group and they did not find one that passed there selection tests. They said the amount of stress the dogs showed under very normal bitework testing was very high, the grips shifted badly when even a little pressure was applied, and they just did not seem to be "free and open" during the tests.
> I think they start out with nice dogs, and i think they are good dog people, but I also believe the amount of stress they subject the dogs to causes the wheels to come off later.
> Just my opinion, I myself have noe seen any of their adults live in person. But I do trust the opinion of the people who told me what they saw.



Hey..Hey guys hang on...I am from India and since I did not get much info on A'Tim i started doing some searches and came to know of the guys you all talk of....I have been following this thread as I was moving to meet the Stealth Paws team....

Mike I am sorry but you are terribly wrong....yes they were at HITS 2009 but they never took any of their dogs there...so where did ur so called SOCOM see their dogs I am bewildered.... do not go by what people say...have u seen their dogs? The dogs from Stealth Paws? U answered in the negative..so pls do not pass judgements based on information that is not correct.

I did see some of their dogs work...pups/young ones and adults....and from what little experience I have I can safely say all you guys are wrong in ur perception....I did casually ask these guys if they would allow a serious buyer to test their dogs...they said anytime / anywhere.....and their dogs rock....so I would suggest those that think otherwise may come over here (to India) and see to believe....you define whats stress???For me it's like the Korung test on A'tim and yes all their adults handle that and much more....and all their dogs look healthy and well taken care of....

I do not know nor am I interested what Debbie went thru ...but they do not ill treat their dogs..thats for sure...i could see it...

Check some of their clips here http://www.youtube.com/Dovrefjeld

I do not support because they r from my country....i support because i believe in what I see....and none of u would have seen any adult dogs from Stealth Paws since none of u have ever visited them nor purchased their pup or dog....

BTW I also did meet Dr.Andre V since he was there....looked a nice person with good head on his shoulders...MPO....

My intention is not to prove anything or anybody wrong...these r my personal opinions based on my visit just yesterday....

Cheers....


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

"I think the pups from Stealth Paws look nice, I was just saying that from what I have heard they are falling about from the pressure as they get older."

Another statement thats not correct......see and test for urself please....their adults can kick some serious ass...I took a bite and a muzzle hit...ask me...lol

Also keep in mind that these dogs are for the real world not sports....they have 3-4 very young dogs being worked exclusively on Mondio and IPO....U guys will see them soon in the international arena....maybe some of you will also compete alongside......

Cheers...


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Sudhir Mathur said:


> Hey..Hey guys hang on...I am from India and since I did not get much info on A'Tim i started doing some searches and came to know of the guys you all talk of....I have been following this thread as I was moving to meet the Stealth Paws team....
> 
> Mike I am sorry but you are terribly wrong....yes they were at HITS 2009 but they never took any of their dogs there...so where did ur so called SOCOM see their dogs I am bewildered.... do not go by what people say...have u seen their dogs? The dogs from Stealth Paws? U answered in the negative..so pls do not pass judgements based on information that is not correct.
> 
> ...


I did not say that the SOCOM guys tested the dogs at the HITS 2009. I did not ask the guys where they tested the dogs. But I am pretty sure they did not make up the story for nothing, so I believe they saw the dogs work and tested them like they said they did.


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I did not say that the SOCOM guys tested the dogs at the HITS 2009. I did not ask the guys where they tested the dogs. But I am pretty sure they did not make up the story for nothing, so I believe they saw the dogs work and tested them like they said they did.



I also fail to understand why people cook stories when there are none......there should be a reason why they said so.....but since U talk of Stealth Paws....I say with all confidence after my talk with them ...that your guys never tested any dogs out of Stealth Paws....pls go back and ask them again....maybe they tell the truth now....I can put u on to Stealth Paws team directly since I have their emails and contact numbers...you will know it yourself....it's common sense Mike SP dogs have never been to US so how can they test???and ur SOCOM has never visited India so......u can judge now....

Cheers.....


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Debby, you clearly had an issue with these guys and I can't judge that because I don't know the people in India.
> I was sharing a video of pups from my dog. I like their attitude and that's what the topic was about.



Martine Dr.Andre did talk of u and Mr.Lopez very highly since i was quizzing on A'Tim....he also showed me a Gast son they have here....he is a terror......and you should also know that Debbie never had anything to do with Stealth Paws nor India.....thats why I say....we can all pass judgments only after we visit them or work their dogs or at least see their dogs work....I did see Sin and Saiga work....WOW...thats all I can say...

Cheers....


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Sudhir Mathur said:


> Martine Dr.Andre did talk of u and Mr.Lopez very highly since i was quizzing on A'Tim....he also showed me a Gast son they have here....he is a terror......and you should also know that Debbie never had anything to do with Stealth Paws nor India.....thats why I say....we can all pass judgments only after we visit them or work their dogs or at least see their dogs work....I did see Sin and Saiga work....WOW...thats all I can say...
> 
> Cheers....


I do not know who Stealth Paws is..Is that another business name for Andre V.? If so, I definitely have an opinion based on past experience.

I have real experience since he and his wife (stayed in an RV) and his 30 dogs boarded at my place for 3+ months in SoCal. Other working dog trainers and breeders in SoCal also witnessed the condition of his dogs and his lack of animal husbandry.

I don't speak of one visit like you do of seeing a couple "token" demo dogs working. And I'm not speaking of his training or conditioning of puppies.

To not be allowed to breed dogs in Belgium..it's not a small thing is it?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Sudhir Mathur said:


> Martine Dr.Andre did talk of u and Mr.Lopez very highly since i was quizzing on A'Tim....he also showed me a Gast son they have here....he is a terror......and you should also know that Debbie never had anything to do with Stealth Paws nor India.....thats why I say....we can all pass judgments only after we visit them or work their dogs or at least see their dogs work....I did see Sin and Saiga work....WOW...thats all I can say...
> 
> Cheers....


 I will find out where they tested the dogs. But please understand that the SOCOM guys travel all over the World every month looking for dogs for their progam. And I know the Stealth Paws guys have been in Europe as well.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Just wanted to make it clear that it certainly wasn't my intention to start a riot. Only thing I was doing was posting a video of some pups that I liked.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Just wanted to make it clear that it certainly wasn't my intention to start a riot. Only thing I was doing was posting a video of some pups that I liked.



More "rioting" yesterday on the "What dog food to feed?" Thread actually...meat vs by products! :grin::grin:

Always love seeing the videos of your dogs and their qualities and great training. :-D


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

Well there is certainly no riot here...and I am no advocate/lawyer of Stealth Paws...lol...

I just narrate what I saw and found good....

Martine I must say u will be proud when u see the A'tim lines here....very very impressive....

Mike i did see ur site and u sound a very accomplished person....so it pains even more to see when a personality like u passes judgments based on hear say....I think you are above all this and u should see and feel first hand before u make or form an opinion....correct me if u feel what I say is wrong....I repeat again the SP team has never been outside India forget Europe...they cannot because their dogs according to them are still not ready for the final job.....but for tests they said people are welcome....I had a very nice time there and I must say they were very cordial and polite....

Well actually I think we are confusing what SP is all about...it is a collaboration between Wolfgreyk9 of India and Dr.Andre V. And I guess going forward they will be known as SP only....

And Debbie I am matured enough to see 40 dogs there and realise their health condition... the way they are groomed and the way they are handled....to form an opinion...I saw 17 dogs being worked....and thats not a small number to form an opinion....if you call that "token" then there is nothing more I can say...

Also u say his dogs came from Mexico to u and u boarded them for 3 months plus....and then u say they lack animal husbandry skills or whatever....this is confusing since the dogs were put up in ur kennels....so u could have improved the overall thing.....moreover I also do not understand why u say 

"To not be allowed to breed dogs in Belgium..it's not a small thing is it? "

Please do not get me wrong....I have no intentions of proving anything or anybody wrong....it's just for knowledge and sharing my experience which was totally different from what you all speak of....

Cheers....


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

Hey ..hey ...i just get to see a new clip your friends added....

http://www.youtube.com/Dovrefjeld#p/a/u/0/oxLc-1-nVrI

I better not say more...lol....each to his/her opinion...

Cheers..


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Just wanted to make it clear that it certainly wasn't my intention to start a riot. Only thing I was doing was posting a video of some pups that I liked.


No worries Martine. I said from the very beginning that I like the looks of the young dogs in the video from your breedings, The only thing that I said was that at some point in the past I know that a group of people who I know very well and trust 100% tested dogs from these guys and did not find one dog that passed their selection test. I will admit that the selection test the SOCOM guys do is very intense and a very small % of dogs from any program will pass, so that does not mean the dogs are not good.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Sudhir Mathur said:


> Well there is certainly no riot here...and I am no advocate/lawyer of Stealth Paws...lol...
> 
> I just narrate what I saw and found good....
> 
> ...


He was living on the property here taking care of them most of the time. Yes, I did take over and buy medicine and extra food (raw), etc out of pocket and took them to the vet. He was living in Mexico when the dogs were "not cared for" as well. It wasn't the dogs fault. Nor was it his fault that the dogs got better. I think you understand, but probably are in business or a spokesman and do not care.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Sudhir Mathur said:


> Hey ..hey ...i just get to see a new clip your friends added....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/Dovrefjeld#p/a/u/0/oxLc-1-nVrI
> 
> ...


Looks good. Lets hope they keep it together when they are 2 years old.


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I will find out where they tested the dogs. But please understand that the SOCOM guys travel all over the World every month looking for dogs for their progam. And I know the Stealth Paws guys have been in Europe as well.


Sad....here u say u will find out where they tested the dogs......and then without doing that u write again...

"The only thing that I said was that at some point in the past I know that a group of people who I know very well and trust 100% tested dogs from these guys and did not find one dog that passed their selection test"

Mike please check who tested the dogs,where they tested the dogs,which dogs did they test,and most imp in my opinion who did they meet and do the tests......for heaven sake guys get ur facts correct...i was just now on phone with the SP team....they confirm a team from US led by a guy called Frank visited Dr.Andre and checked out his friend called Mr.Willy dogs (since all of SP dogs are here in India)....a Malinois called Thor and a GSD called Wolf...so here we r .....if this is right then that was not SP dogs they checked....I find these chaps absolutely straight forward and clear...no hanky panky...

Mike ask ur firends about this and clear the doubt....

Cheers....


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

"I think you understand, but probably are in business or a spokesman and do not care."

Maybe my english is weak since I do not understand ur above statement....pls elaborate...and i alsowanted to know what u meant by the "breeding violations in Belgium"...

Cheers....


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

The videos needs bollywood music


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Sudhir Mathur said:


> and a GSD called Wolf...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G0lNeAQHrM

If this is the dog then it's the biggest GSD I've ever seen in my life. My goodness!


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

They told me it was a GSD called Wolf....and the video clip also says that....but not my dog so i cannot confirm if it was the same....maybe Mikes friends can if they tested the same dog...

Cheers...


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> The videos needs bollywood music


Here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byxlzYlgKrw


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Sudhir Mathur said:


> They told me it was a GSD called Wolf....and the video clip also says that....but not my dog so i cannot confirm if it was the same....maybe Mikes friends can if they tested the same dog...
> 
> Cheers...


The description says the dog is owned and trained by Willy Liefsoens so I figured this might be the Mr. Willy you mentioned.


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## Sudhir Mathur (Sep 10, 2009)

Well ur right I did miss reading that...lol....yes looks the same dog...

Cheers...


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