# What is your vac schedule?



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

What schedule do you use for pup vacs, what shots at what times, seperate shots or multi? I would like to know who does what and why? I haven't had to think about it in awhile and things change. Please no links to vet jargon no one understands, simple english.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I do the basic pup shots and rabies followed by the booster and that's it unless I have to cross a border and the rabies needs to be redone to cross.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

OK your "basics" consists of??? And at what age in weeks? Sounds like you don't go with seperate shots but the multi?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Yes, just the 4 or 7 way cocktail every 4 weeks until 16 weeks approx, or 3 times, because they have their first at the breeders and a rabies somewhere around 16 to 20 weeks with the booster about a yr later.

No kennel or giardia or that type of thing ever.


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## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

I do three rounds of DHLPP and a rabies, booster a year later and then only yearly rabies (per the state's requirement).

I'm not a "no-vax" follower, but my vet and I follow a low-vax protocol for healthy adult dogs.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

This website has an easy to read chart. The recommendations are based on peer reviewed research:
http://www.critteradvocacy.org/Canine Vaccination Guidlines.htm


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm still a bit skeered, but am considering going completely vax-free. I already do not vax my adult dogs. I really didn't have a choice with my first litter as far as the shots, but with my next one, I am seriously considering taking the plunge and not vax'ing at all. 

If I am not brave enough to do it, then I'll give a parvo and distemper shot only, specifically NeoTech brand, starting at 7 or 8 weeks of age. I will instruct the new owners to have titers checked 2 weeks following the shot. Hopefully those two will be the only shots they ever get.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> This website has an easy to read chart. The recommendations are based on peer reviewed research:
> http://www.critteradvocacy.org/Canine Vaccination Guidlines.htm


 
Thank you Konnie, that is a wonderful link and website.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

This is subject to change as I'm always learning more. 

The last pup had Rabies vaccine at 16 wks (as required by law) and a DA2PP at 6 months. She's turning 2 soon and due for a titer.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

DHPP at 8, 12 and 16 weeks. Booster at a year. We then do 3yr boosters on adults a couple times, so at 4yr and 7yr. No more after that.

Rabies at 6 months old, then at 18 months, then every 3 years after that (all as required by law).

We do not give lepto, bordetella, corona or lyme.


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## Russ Spencer (Jun 2, 2008)

The pups get their first set at 8 wks. I pass on recommendations for 12 & 16 wks and a booster @ 16 mos. A titer @ 24 months and rabies as required.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

My last GSD had his puppy and first vac's and I never did them again.... He lived to 14 without any problems.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

We do DHP-CPV at 8-12-16 weeks. Rabies at 19 weeks or six months if we can get away holding off that long (permit issue). Booster DHP-CPV a year after the last one then nothing after that. Rabies boosters every 3 years in order to keep my kennel permit. We don't give corona, lyme, lepto, bordatella or any other vaccinations.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Why do so many give boosters at a year when parvo and distemper are super rare at that age?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Fear of the unknown.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

And habit. It's always been that way, so it must be right.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Direct quote (and something to think about) from the website regarding titers:
_"Titers of antibody levels do not accurately predict immunity or lack of immunity."_


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

For my GSD, we had the multi shots given when he was a pup. Now I do a blood titer every year and if his immunity is low on something he'll get a booster for just that. I haven't had to give him anything yet.

For our Dane, we did a lot more research into overvaccination and the multi shot cocktails, and with her we decided to only get the necessities- parvo and distemper. Single dose shot of one one week, then the next week a shot of the other, alternating until she had the required dosages. We didn't get her anything else. She gets a yearly titer as well. At her one year test she needed a distemper as her level for that was low, and I'm betting this year she needs nothing. 

Part of the reason we went with the single shots with her ( and I wish we had with the GSD, but you are always learning) is, if you give a 5 or 7 in 1, and the pup reacts, how do you know what component it's reacting to? Plus the general system overload of all of those vacs hitting them at once.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> And habit. It's always been that way, so it must be right.


And a protocol developed by the manufacturers.... the ones selling the vaccines .....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's the Jean Dodds protocol:

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Why do so many give boosters at a year when parvo and distemper are super rare at that age?


Because due to possible interference from maternal antibodies there is no guarantee that the puppy series will provide long term (probably lifelong) immunity, whereas a booster at a year certainly will.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> Because due to possible interference from maternal antibodies there is no guarantee that the puppy series will provide long term (probably lifelong) immunity, whereas a booster at a year certainly will.


Then why do the puppy series? :twisted:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> due to possible interference from maternal antibodies there is no guarantee that the puppy series will provide long term (probably lifelong) immunity.



A simple way to know if the puppy shots were effective is to titer 2 weeks after the shot. That's about all the good titers are for, anyway. A low titer is not indicative of low immunity, and a high titer is not indicative of high immunity; it simply means that the dog may not have been recently exposed, or it _has_ been recently exposed, to what you're titering for. If there is a titer result at all, then the dog is capable of producing antibodies against that disease.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

I am probably one of those people that "over vacinate". It's a carry over from my horse show days when proof of vacinations was required at the larger shows. I have also seen so many times horses got sick after being exposed to different things that for me I felt, and still feel, safer to take every precaution I can. I have seen too many times people have obviously sick dogs out and about. If there is any chance of mine getting exposed to something because of others doing that, then I will try to do what I can to protect mine.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Then why do the puppy series? :twisted:


To make sure it lives into adulthood. ;-) 
Maternal antibodies are typically reduced to the point of being ineffective, or absent altogether, by 14-16 weeks of age at the latest.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

For my own dogs, I now follow Dr. Ronald Schultz's protocol for his own dogs (below) with the exception of the influenza vaccine.

_*"*_My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performedtwo or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. "I have usedthis vaccination program with modifications (CAV-2 replaced CAV-1 vaccines in 1970's and CPV-2 vaccines were first used in 1980) since 1974! I have never had one of our dogs develop CDV,CAV-1 or CPV-2 even though they have had exposure to many dogs, wildlife and to virulent CPV-2 virus. You may say that I have been lucky, but it is not luck that protects my dogs, it is immunologic memory. (*What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination Programs: *http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What%20Everyone%20Needs%20to%20Know%20About%20Canine%20Vaccines.htm)

The vaccines in the quote above are CDV (distemper), CPV-2 (parvovirus), CPI (canine parainfluenza), and CAV-2 (hepatitis), and Dr. Ronald Schultz is the Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine. His challenge and serological studies on canine vaccines form a large part of the scientific data base upon which the 2003 and 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are based, as well as the 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association's Vaccine Guidelines.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> A simple way to know if the puppy shots were effective is to titer 2 weeks after the shot. That's about all the good titers are for, anyway. A low titer is not indicative of low immunity, and a high titer is not indicative of high immunity; it simply means that the dog may not have been recently exposed, or it _has_ been recently exposed, to what you're titering for. If there is a titer result at all, then the dog is capable of producing antibodies against that disease.


 
The titer tests for the MLV's (modified live virus vaccines) are considered to be reliable, though not for killed vaccines like rabies. There is an in-house titer kit available from Synbiotics in San Diego called "TiterChek" that your vet can do in their office with pass/fail results indicating the presence of enough antibodies to prevent disease. In order to get a specific antibody count, you would need to have bloodwork sent to a lab, but we always have the in-house titer done before we board our dogs and bring a letter from the vet rather than have redundant boosters for distemper, hepatitis, or parvo.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

But rabies vax are given well after any maternal antibodies are still present, so is there really a need to titer for rabies at all? I wait as long as possible to administer that first rabies shot; it is up there with the lepto shot as far as adverse reactions go.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Kristen,

Most states do not accept rabies titers in lieu of vaccination, so pet owners must comply with the law. A rabies titer would come in handy for dogs who may be at risk of being "non-responders" such as wolf hybrids or dogs who have received medical waivers due to illness.

You are correct about the adverse reactions -- the rabies vaccine is the one most likely to cause adverse reactions and more severe reactions, it is the most potent of all veterinary vaccines. As with the Leptospira vaccine, the rabies is a killed, adjuvanted vaccine and killed, adjuvanted vaccines are far more likely to cause hypersentitivies than modified live virus vaccines (MLV's) such as distemper, hepatitis, and parvo.

Adjuvants are inflammatory components (microbials, chemicals such as aluminum hydroxide & aluminum phosphate, and/or mamalian proteins) used to enhance the immunological response to killed vaccines, which do not elicit as strong an immune response in animals as the MLV's. *"The World Health Organization (WHO) in 1999 classified veterinary vaccine adjuvants as Class III/IV carcinogens with Class IV being the highest risk," *(IARC Monographs on the Evaluation of Carcinogenic Risks to Humans: Volume 74, World Health Organization, International Agency for Research on Cancer, Feb. 23-Mar. 2, 1999, p. 24, 305, 310.)

The human equivalent of a killed, adjuvanted vaccine is tetanus -- ever notice that you get a sore swollen area after a booster? The adjuvant in the vaccine is what causes that.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

You are right in that titers are rarely accepted when it comes to rabies, but you can get your vet to sign a waiver stating that your dog is not 'healthy enough' for the vaccine each time it comes time for that so-called booster, to get out of having to do it. :wink: You can also make friends with someone in a state that does not require that vets administer the shot, and get them to send you the paperwork and tag, and just say that you traveled there and had the shot done. There are ways of getting around it ...

Even though I had no choice whether to vaccinate the litter I had last year (no smart aleky remarks please  ), I made it a point to use adjuvant-free shots.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Kristen,

To the best of my knowledge, there are no USDA licensed non-adjuvanted rabies vaccines for dogs, although there is a one-year one for felines. 

You should be aware that dogs receiving medical waivers when rabies boosters are due will likely be deemed "unvaccinated" under state law if they bite or scratch someone. If you happen to live in a state like Maine, there will be a Draconian response from the Bureau of Health and your dog will be immediately euthanized for testing. Dogs with waivers are at tremendous risk in this regard and their owners should be aware of it.

When Meadow had metasticized mast cell cancer raging throughout his body, he received a medical waiver when his booster came due at 9. Despite the fact that he had not had a booster since he was 5, his antibody count was 1:5,800 (the World Health Organization deems 1:5 to confer immunity against rabies for humans). Even with an astronomically high rabies titer, if he had bitten or scratched someone, the state would literally have had his head for rabies testing.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I guess I'm lucky I don't live in Maine. Here, if an unvaccinated dog (or a dog who has not been kept 'up to date') bites someone, they are quarantined to see if they start showing signs of rabies. If they don't, they go home. If they do ...

And you're right; there are no adjuvant free rabies vax for dogs yet because it is a killed virus vaccine.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kris L. Christine said:


> Kristen,
> 
> Most states do not accept rabies titers in lieu of vaccination, so pet owners must comply with the law. A rabies titer would come in handy for dogs who may be at risk of being "non-responders" such as wolf hybrids or dogs who have received medical waivers due to illness.


In Missouri, we are taught that wolfdogs/wolf hybrids may not under any circumstances be knowingly vaccinated by a veterinary doctor for an animal owned (legally or not) by a private citizen, as it could be your license. If a wolf or wolfdog bites a person, it has to be killed and tested, even if it had been vaccinated or has a titer. While this is not fair IMO and they used canine rabies vaccines on the wolves that were at the Omaha Zoo while I shadowed there before vet school, they have exemption as a zoological park. Once again, I don't think it's "fair" and I think it encourages owners to lie to their vets about the origins of their animal ("Oh yeah, Doctor, it's a shepherd/husky mix...") or not report a bite for fear they are going to have their animal killed. However, it's a public health issue and I supposed the health departments don't want to condone owning wolfdogs in anyway, so there you have it.

There was an interesting article by Dr. Ron Schultz a few issues back in the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association's journal. He argued (and rightly so) that we don't need to be vaccinating less, but MORE. Not as in individual people need to load their dogs up on more vaccines, but we need more people to do it for herd immunity and do it in a logical and scientific manner. Excellent point. 

As for me personally, I am required to vaccinate my two adult certified therapy dogs every three years for the main core, and yearly for leptospirosis because it's zoonotic. I'm going to have to get that done soon and I'm going to request the 4 way Fort Dodge lepto, as it covers more serovars and has less ofa reaction risk. I've grumbled about it, but when you're dealing with immunocompromised people in nursing homes and hospitals, the human health aspect is going to win, which is fine. My other dogs get combo puppy modified live (DHPP) series at 8, 12, and 16 weeks. I try to put off the rabies until 6 months, though that's technically illegal in my county, I think. I test the titers for parvo and distemper at around 6 months at the same appointment the rabies is given and if they have a good titer, that's fine for me. It's about $50 to submit the distemper and parvo sample at the diagnostic lab at the vet school, which is pretty cheap. Then they get the rabies 12 months later and then every three as by state law.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> \It's about $50 to submit the distemper and parvo sample at the diagnostic lab at the vet school, which is pretty cheap.


Holy crap! :shock: I'm dragging my feet on Emma's because the last titer I did (different dog) for distemper/parvo was $200. Frickin' vet... :twisted:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Holy crap! :shock: I'm dragging my feet on Emma's because the last titer I did (different dog) for distemper/parvo was $200. Frickin' vet... :twisted:


It depends on what lab you send it to. You maybe could see if you vet will send the sample to UMinn instead of a private lab because the private labs usually charge a lot more. Your vet will still probably charge ya for the blood draw and office call, but the charge of the test will *hopefully* be less if their diagnostic lab runs it at Minnesota.


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## Tiffany Geisen (Nov 4, 2008)

I work in an emergency vet clinic and have seen pups come in with parvo that have had the recommended 3 series. the last one Pfizer actually paid for the treatment since it was them who made the vaccs that the puppy was inoculated with. My 7 month mal got vaccinated with a DHPP at 6wks and 9wks, at 12wks, 16wks and 24wks he got a DHLPP. I did so many because of the high risk group I was putting him in every time I came home from work. My old rotti was a blood donor and got vaccinated every 6 months. His titer was 3xs the recommended protection level for parvo and every time he donated to a parvo puppy they would be standing and wagging their tails the next day... All those mmm mm good antibodies. Anyhow I don't expect anyone to vaccinate as much as I do but I do think people should vaccinate. Its ridiculous to have such diseases as Parvo and Distemper when they could have been eradicated years ago if everyone just vaccinated. And just because your unvaccinated dog makes it to adulthood without catching parvo or distemper doesn't mean he won't. The oldest parvo case I've see was a 5yr old dog and that was last summer.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Holy crap! :shock: I'm dragging my feet on Emma's because the last titer I did (different dog) for distemper/parvo was $200. Frickin' vet... :twisted:


Anne,

When we have to board our guys, we have our vet do an in-office titer for distemper, hepatitis, and parvo and have her write a letter if they're protected -- the in-house test is much less expensive than sending bloodwork to a lab, but it will only give you a "pass/fail" result whereas the bloodwork sent to a lab will give you a specific antibody count. The in-house tests are much less expensive. If your vet doesn't have them, check the link below where they can obtain them.

TiterChek Synbiotics http://www.synbiotics.com/cgi-bin/Products.pl?cgifunction=Search&Product%20Code=96-0460


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Kris L. Christine said:


> Anne,
> 
> When we have to board our guys, we have our vet do an in-office titer for distemper, hepatitis, and parvo and have her write a letter if they're protected -- the in-house test is much less expensive than sending bloodwork to a lab, but it will only give you a "pass/fail" result whereas the bloodwork sent to a lab will give you a specific antibody count. The in-house tests are much less expensive. If your vet doesn't have them, check the link below where they can obtain them.
> 
> TiterChek Synbiotics http://www.synbiotics.com/cgi-bin/Products.pl?cgifunction=Search&Product%20Code=96-0460


All I need is pass/fail. Nothing fancy! Thanks!

It might be cheaper to GO to UMinn. It's a fun trip. I might look into that.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well heck, just come on down to Mizzou then. We'll hang out! :-D


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> You are right in that titers are rarely accepted when it comes to rabies, but you can get your vet to sign a waiver stating that your dog is not 'healthy enough' for the vaccine each time it comes time for that so-called booster, to get out of having to do it. :wink: You can also make friends with someone in a state that does not require that vets administer the shot, and get them to send you the paperwork and tag, and just say that you traveled there and had the shot done. There are ways of getting around it ...
> 
> Even though I had no choice whether to vaccinate the litter I had last year (no smart aleky remarks please  ), I made it a point to use adjuvant-free shots.


 
Think long and hard before you have a vet sign a health waiver for your dog regarding rabies vaccination. If someone so much as claims your dog bit them, be prepared to have animal control take your dog and impound it on their premises without proof of current rabies vaccination. 

As far as "getting around" vaccination requirements, if that's what you want to do with your dogs, if you want to not vaccinate your animals I know where you are coming from, but there is another side to that coin. Please always remember to never take your dogs to clubs or events that do require dogs be vaccinated. That, or tell them up front you choose not to vaccinate your animals, ask them if they will accept certain titer levels and let the membership decide whether they want you to participate or not. 

As much as I can respect your decision not to vaccinate, you must also respect those who do not want their dogs to be exposed to unvaccinated animals.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well heck, just come on down to Mizzou then. We'll hang out! :-D


I am thinking about going down to Mizzou over Easter. My family lives in Columbia and Lupus.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Kristen Cabe said:


> A simple way to know if the puppy shots were effective is to titer 2 weeks after the shot. That's about all the good titers are for, anyway. A low titer is not indicative of low immunity, and a high titer is not indicative of high immunity; it simply means that the dog may not have been recently exposed, or it _has_ been recently exposed, to what you're titering for. If there is a titer result at all, then the dog is capable of producing antibodies against that disease.


I'll have to do some researching to find documentation, but I believe if the pup was still protected by the maternal antibodies, that would also show on a titer. So a positive titer 2 weeks after the shot may indicate the vaccine did it's job, or it may indicate the pup was still protected by maternal antibodies, in which case once those wore off the pup would be unprotected. 

All this is depending on the age of the pup. I've spoken to my vet about this before and although he agrees with the "most maternal antibodies wear off after 12-14 weeks" comment, he said he's seen cases where they lasted, and interfered with vaccines, for more then 18 weeks. He now recommends one final vaccine after 18 weeks just to be on the safe side. Course he also treats a TON of Parvo cases, so he may be extra cautious. I remember talking to him one time and he'd seen 8 Parvo cases just in that week.

Because Parvo is such an issue in my area (I've known of multiple vaccinated adults that got it, a few died) I give my litters a Parvo only shot at 5 weeks. They get another Parvo (or combo) shot at 8 and then I recommend a multi-vaccine shot at 12 and 16 to my puppy people. With another shot being considered at 20 weeks depending on their vets recommendation. I also encourage them to talk to their vets about what they vaccinate for since something that may not be an issue in my area might be an issue in their area. After the puppy vaccinations I will generally do a booster some time after a year old and that's about it. Any other vaccines after that are because they are being required for boarding, or licensing (rabies), etc. 

I had a litter of pups come down with Parvo at 6 weeks, from a vaccinated mother. In retrospect I think this might be because they were bottle fed during the first couple of days and might not have gotten all the colostrum they needed to protect them. However, since then I have titer'd my girls before breeding just to be sure their antibody levels are good, if needed I'd give them a booster but so far I haven't had to.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Please always remember to never take your dogs to clubs or events that do require dogs be vaccinated. That, or tell them up front you choose not to vaccinate your animals, ask them if they will accept certain titer levels and let the membership decide whether they want you to participate or not.
> 
> As much as I can respect your decision not to vaccinate, you must also respect those who do not want their dogs to be exposed to unvaccinated animals.


I don't participate in anything that requires any further proof than checking yes or no on a form that asks if your dogs are up to date on their shots, but what risk do my unvaccinated dogs pose to dogs who have been vaccinated, _any_way? None.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I don't participate in anything that requires any further proof than checking yes or no on a form that asks if your dogs are up to date on their shots, but what risk do my unvaccinated dogs pose to dogs who have been vaccinated, _any_way? None.


Your debate is not with me, it with those clubs and organizations that require vaccinations. 

If you want to debate with a particular club about whether or not they should require all dogs be vaccinated or if you want to convince them they should accept particular titer levels, go for it. If they reject your premise and still require dogs be current on vaccinations then you have a choice to either vaccinate or not participate.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I understand, Susan. I was just stating my argument should I ever be confronted about it. I'd love to hear what they have to say! How on Earth can an unvaccinated dog get a vaccinated one sick?! :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

A vaccinated dog can get an unvaccinated dog sick. The vaccinated one can pick up a virus and shed it, even though there aren't any clinical signs because the vaccinated one's immune system has already "seen" it before and is dealing with it faster. A vaccinated dog can still come down with the illness if it's immunocompromised (cancer or cancer/immune mediated disease treatments, immune deficiency viruses in humans, cats, non-human primates or other species) or under a huge amount of stress (corticosteroids suppress the immune system, which is why you are more likely to get sick when you're stressed). Or if the vaccine just didn't take because of improper handling (buyer beware from getting them from the feed stores and catalogues for improper handling, mixing,storage temperature, etc) or other reasons. Vaccines can fail for a number of reasons.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, they can, but if a vaccinated dog is well enough to participate in group classes, or a show, or whatever the venue is, how can an _un_vaccinated dog, _also_ not showing any signs or symptoms of any disease, make that vaccinated dog sick? - is my argument.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is one thing to risk your dog with your goofy I don't need to vaccinate ass, but why don't you just tell them that your dog is unvaccinated and let them decide.

Kinda arrogant to think you know better. I have seen enough dogs die from stupid shit that can be prevented. Who's to say your dogs don't get sick and die ??? Always fun to watch a dog die of Parvo, nice, with the super high fever, and the dog struggling to drink only to vomit 30 seconds after.

Get over yourself and get your dogs vaccinated. How hard is this to understand for 5 ****ing pages????? LOL


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> A vaccinated dog can get an unvaccinated dog sick. The vaccinated one can pick up a virus and shed it, even though there aren't any clinical signs because the vaccinated one's immune system has already "seen" it before and is dealing with it faster. A vaccinated dog can still come down with the illness if it's immunocompromised (cancer or cancer/immune mediated disease treatments, immune deficiency viruses in humans, cats, non-human primates or other species) or under a huge amount of stress (corticosteroids suppress the immune system, which is why you are more likely to get sick when you're stressed).


That is correct, and in the case of the MLV's (modified live virus vaccines), the vaccinated dog can shed organisms in their urine that can infect others.

In an August 1, 2008 article in _DVM360_ entitled *Vaccination: An Overview*, http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=568351 Dr. Melissa Kennedy states regarding modified live virus vaccines: There is some, albeit low risk for reversion to virulence. Because the agents are infectious, there is some risk for immunosuppressed animals, and significant risk for the fetus in pregnant animals.




> Or if the vaccine just didn't take because of improper handling (buyer beware from getting them from the feed stores and catalogues for improper handling, mixing,storage temperature, etc) or other reasons. Vaccines can fail for a number of reasons.


*Excellent point! *

To give you further insight into how quickly an improperly handled vaccine can lose its potency, Dr. Ronald Schultz says: *"For how long can a reconstituted MLV vaccine sit at room temperature without losing activity? *At room temperature, some of the more sensitive vaccines (e.g. CDV, FHV-1) will lose their ability to immunize in 2 to 3 hours, whereas other components will remain immunogenic for several days (e.g. CPV, FPV)." (* What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What%20Everyone%20Needs%20to%20Know%20About%20Canine%20Vaccines.htm )
*


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I had a litter of pups come down with Parvo at 6 weeks, from a vaccinated mother. In retrospect I think this might be because they were bottle fed during the first couple of days and might not have gotten all the colostrum they needed to protect them.


Kadi,

That must have been dreadful! Maybe you're correct about the bottle feeding -- 
*Vaccine Options & Prevention,* *MATERNAL ANTIBODY: OUR BIGGEST OBSTACLE* http://www.marvistavet.com/html/vaccination_options_prevention.html
states that Puppies that were born first or were more aggressive at nursing on the first day, will get more maternal antibody than their littermates.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is one thing to risk your dog with your goofy I don't need to vaccinate ass, but why don't you just tell them that your dog is unvaccinated and let them decide.


1. My dogs ARE vaccinated. They were vaccinated as puppies. I just don't do yearly shots, and I'm on the fence about what I'll do when I begin my breeding program. I can either use nosodes and/or gradual exposure to build immunity, or vaccinate and recommend to my buyers that they not give any more. If I decide to vaccinate my puppies, I'm undecided about measuring mom's titers before she whelps and sending the results to Dr. Schultz for interpretation on when the puppies should be old enough for vaccines to be effective, or just waiting until they're 10-12 weeks before giving them their first shot. I would be using high titer shots, which should override any maternal antibodies they have at the time of the jab, but I refuse to vaccinate a puppy younger than 8-9 weeks old.


2. If they don't ask, why should I have to tell anyone _any_thing? 



> Kinda arrogant to think you know better. I have seen enough dogs die from stupid shit that can be prevented. Who's to say your dogs don't get sick and die ???


Know better than what? I know what I know and I'm basing my decision on the studies and facts that I've read, as well as on the experiences of others. I'm not telling you or anyone else not to vaccinate if that's what you want to do. 

They're gonna die at some point.**shrug** Parvo is treatable, both homeopathically and conventionally. You just have to know what to look for and begin treatment ASAP. According to many, an _un_vaccinated dog has a better chance of beating parvo than a vaccinated dog, due to the degree of immunosuppression that the vaccinated dog has undergone. I can't speak to that personally, but I know several people who have first-hand experience and they all agree. 



> Get over yourself and get your dogs vaccinated. How hard is this to understand for 5 ****ing pages????? LOL


It wouldn't be 5 ****ing pages if you changed your settings! It's only 2 pages for me!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

all right, back OT, i would like to hear thoughts re: "what to do at this point for my pup". here's the scenario: he turns 6 mo old today (! ). he has had, to date, one vax at 6 wks old, for distemper/parainfluenza/parvo. i brought him home at 8 wks, had a cocci issue, dealt with that. ran out of $. 

so he hasn't had any vax since the 6 wk vax, but he hasn't been out much (but he has been out in public some). at this point since things are looking up financially, should my priority be on the basic vax or rabies vax? i like minimal vax protocols, but we are REAL minimal here--beyond my comfort zone.

also, when i took him in for his initial physical, vet said she'd seen a lepto case last summer (dog died) and reco'd the lepto vax. this was within probably a 30-mi radius. so do i add a lepto? (i've seen/dealt w/it in calves and it's not pretty).

anyone that wants to jump my a$$, i'll tell ahead of time--don't judge. just answer my question (and yes, i'm a little defensive, i give myself an entirely effective guilt trip, don't need it fr anyone else). 

i really am looking forward to answers. and if i can figure out how to put some pics on here (where's my son?) i'll post some of not only Edge, but Gracie, and my baby girl


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Look at the video I posted. If you don't have a dog THAT ****ing good, then cancel the Christmas breeding program.

I have had people ask why I do not breed anymore. Kinda obvious when you see what the GSD was supposed to be, like the video, and what people show you in THEIR vids.

Vaccinate your dogs, and stop listening to the half baked idiots that told you that immunized dogs have less of a chance. Lots and Lots of fun to watch one after the other die. Especially when you believe in that goofball **** pathy shit.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

jeff, that's really not a bit helpful to my situation, so i'll just ease on by it. (i love that phrase for some reason...)

the question was, basically, at this PIT, which vax should have priority: the rabies or the combo, and if combo, should i add lepto based on one case? (that one vet dealt with).

perhaps i'll just run across the river, pick up the vax fr the vet there, and he'll answer my questions (plus i can buy the vax, give them myself, and legally be fine).


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The rabies is required by law as you know, so check when it is required in your county in Nebraska. If you get the lepto, make sure to use the 4 serovar Fort Dodge one. I don't particularly like Fort Dodge, but that one covers the 4 main serovars for lepto (the others cover 2) and it was developed with less likelihood of being reactionary. For the distemper/parvo, parvo is *less* of a risk at this point, though dogs can technically get it throughout their lives. Distemper still can be fatal, so it'd still be one I'd get another one for as 6 weeks is prime time for maternal antibodies to have not waned. So I can't really give you medical advice on what order to get them (gotta ask your vet), but do each at least 2 weeks (3-4 is most ideal) in between. Hope it helps.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Ann, I wouldn't give a combo - I'd do them as separate injections spaced a few weeks apart (1. so the body isn't bombarded with a bunch of things all at once, and 2. if he has a reaction, you'll know what it was to) - but if you choose to do a combo, I'd go with a 5-way. I would not give lepto or corona at all. I'd then wait at least 3 weeks before I gave the rabies shot.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i have to go to town today, i think i'll stop at my fav vet supply store and visit with them a little. it's owned by a vet, and he's there all the time. the advantage is, i can buy the vax and give it myself-even rabies. or at least that's how it worked 3 yrs ago. i'll pick their brains also.

i def need to get him dist/rabies--i saw enough distemper kittens back in the day to cure me of thinking he doesn't need to be protected. and there's a lot of rabies up here (plus it's the law of course). so those 2 will be a "given". just not sure about whether the lepto is really needed...appreciate the tip about which lepto to give maren! 

if i do go w/the lepto, should i vax Gracie also do you think? i'll look at her records to see if she's already been, but if not.....


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Personally, I would never use a Fort Dodge vaccine for my dogs.


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## Lisa Emerson (Mar 30, 2009)

I have once done parvo at 6w for a litter, but I have always done DHPP at 9w, 12/13w, & 16/17w. (I neuter the pets around 11w.) Sometimes, if the puppies are local, I see them back to give them their other two vaccs. For my own dogs I give another DHPP at 1y, yea many weeks, and then that's it, unless they have to be shipped or boarded or something later on and extra are required.

I do not care for Fort Dodge either. ...at all. I now always use Merial's Recombitek. Recombinant vaccines like that product are currently the safest and most effective, and they surely last longer than the killed. I have yet to have a puppy or dog have a reaction to a recombinant vacc.

As for rabies and vaccs for other diseases... There is currently no recombinant rabies vacc available to the public, unfortunately. I generally give the one that's available at 7m and 1y7m-ish for my own dogs, sometimes earlier though, and then never again. I never give lepto because it's not a serious problem here and because so many dachshunds have such a bad reaction to it. But then, dachsies often have reactions to the rabies ones on the market too, although that's unavoidable at the moment I suppose.

I do not recall having given anything else.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I do the puppy shots and then only the rabies shot yearly. 
I did do the series when I hunted with terriers because of the contact with lots of critters. I even got the rabies shots for myself back then. 
I't a very comforting thought while a pissed off raccoon is using your back for a ladder when your upside down in a hole. :-o 8-[ [-o< 8-[ [-o< 
Possums usually just piss all over you when they use you for a ladder. Always a plus on a cold day in the field.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I do the puppy shots and then only the rabies shot yearly.


Bob,

Why do you do a rabies shot yearly? Missouri has a 3 year protocol -- see below.

Kris

The *Missouri State Public Health Veterinarian:* Dr. Howard Pue [email protected] Phone# 573-751-6141 Fax: 573-526-0235

*Missouri Rabies Law http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C300-399/3220000010.HTM*

(3) "Immunized", immunized against rabies at the expense of the owner or custodian by the administration of antirabic virus by a licensed veterinarian; 

http://www.dhss.missouri.gov/Rabies/

*Vaccination of Animals*
Effective rabies vaccines are available for dogs, cats, ferrets, sheep, cattle, and horses. Vaccination of cats and dogs is crucial, since vaccinated pets are a protective barrier between the people who own and interact with them and rabid wild animals with which the pets might have contact. Dogs and cats whose owners consider them to be “indoor animals” should also be vaccinated because these pets often have exposures to other animals, either by the dog or cat being unintentionally released to the outdoors, or by wild animals such as bats getting into the house. Vaccinations must be administered by a licensed veterinarian. Primary and booster vaccinations should be obtained in accordance with recommendations from licensed veterinarians and in accordance with local animal control ordinances. There is no postexposure treatment available for animals as there is for humans. Information pertaining to animal rabies vaccines as well as the prevention and control of rabies in animals is available in the _Compendium of Animal Rabies Prevention and Control, 2005_². http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5403a1.htm


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

*Dr. W. Jean Dodds' Latest Recommended Vaccination Schedule*

Here is Dr. W. Jean Dodds' Latest Recommendation Vaccination Schedule for those of you who are interested.

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

*Dr. Jean Dodds' Recommended Vaccination Schedule *

*Distemper (MLV)* 
_Initial_ (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy) 9 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 - 20 weeks 
_1st Annual Booster_ At 1 year MLV Distemper/ Parvovirus only 
_Re-Administration Interval_ *None needed.*
*Duration of immunity 7.5 / 15 years by studies. Probably lifetime.* Longer studies pending. 
_Comments _Can have numerous side effects if given too young (< 8 weeks). 

*Parvovirus (MLV)*
_Initial_ (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy) 9 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 - 20 weeks 
_1st Annual Booster_At 1 year MLV Distemper/ Parvovirus only 
_Re-Administration Interval_ *None needed.*
*Duration of immunity 7.5 years by studies. Probably lifetime*. Longer studies pending. 
_Comments _At 6 weeks of age, only 30% of puppies are protected but 100% are exposed to the virus at the vet clinic. 

*Rabies (killed) *
_Initial_ 24 weeks or older 
_1st Annual Booster_At 1 year (give 3-4 weeks apart from Dist/Parvo booster) Killed 3 year rabies vaccine
_Re-Administration Interval_ 3 yr. vaccine given as required by law in California (follow your state/provincial requirements) 
_Comments _rabid animals may infect dogs. 

*Vaccines Not Recommended For Dogs *

*Distemper & Parvo @ 6 weeks or younger*
Not recommended.
At this age, maternal antibodies form the mothers milk (colostrum) will neutralize the vaccine and only 30% for puppies will be protected. 100% will be exposed to the virus at the vet clinic. 

*Corona *
Not recommended.
1.) Disease only affects dogs <6 weeks of age.
2.) Rare disease: TAMU has seen only one case in seven years.
3.) Mild self-limiting disease.
4.) Efficacy of the vaccine is questionable. 

*Leptospirosis*
Not recommended
1) There are an average of 12 cases reported annually in California.
2) Side effects common.
3) Most commonly used vaccine contains the wrong serovars. (There is no cross-protection of serovars) There is a new vaccine with 2 new serovars. Two vaccinations twice per year would be required for protection.).
4) Risk outweighs benefits.

*Lyme* 
Not recommended
1) Low risk in California.
2) 85% of cases are in 9 New England states and Wisconsin.
3) Possible side effect of polyarthritis from whole cell bacterin. 

*Boretella*
(Intranasal)
(killed) Only recommended 3 days prior to boarding when required.
Protects against 2 of the possible 8 causes of kennel cough.
Duration of immunity 6 months. 

*Giardia* 
Not recommended
Efficacy of vaccine unsubstantiated by independent studies 

There are two types of vaccines currently available to veterinarians: modified-live vaccines and inactivated ("killed") vaccines.

*Immunization Schedules*

There is a great deal of controversy and confusion surrounding the appropriate immunization schedule, especially with the availability of modified-live vaccines and breeders who have experienced postvaccinal problems when using some of these vaccines. It is also important to not begin a vaccination program while maternal antibodies are still active and present in the puppy from the mother's colostrum. The maternal antibodies identify the vaccines as infectious organisms and destroy them before they can stimulate an immune response.

Many breeders and owners have sought a safer immunization program. 

*Modified Live Vaccines (MLV)*

Modified-live vaccines contain a weakened strain of the disease causing agent. Weakening of the agent is typically accomplished by chemical means or by genetic engineering. These vaccines replicate within the host, thus increasing the amount of material available for provoking an immune response without inducing clinical illness. This provocation primes the immune system to mount a vigorous response if the disease causing agent is ever introduced to the animal. Further, the immunity provided by a modified-live vaccine develops rather swiftly and since they mimic infection with the actual disease agent, it provides the best immune response.

*Inactivated Vaccines (Killed)*

Inactivated vaccines contain killed disease causing agents. Since the agent is killed, it is much more stable and has a longer shelf life, there is no possibility that they will revert to a virulent form, and they never spread from the vaccinated host to other animals. They are also safe for use in pregnant animals (a developing fetus may be susceptible to damage by some of the disease agents, even though attenuated, present in modified-live vaccines). Although more than a single dose of vaccine is always required and the duration of immunity is generally shorter, inactivated vaccines are regaining importance in this age of retrovirus and herpesvirus infections and concern about the safety of genetically modified microorganisms. Inactivated vaccines available for use in dogs include rabies, canine parvovirus, canine coronavirus, etc.

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
HEMOPET
938 Stanford Street
Santa Monica, CA 90403
310/ 828-4804
fax: 310/ 828-8251

Note: This schedule is the one I recommend and should not be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgment and choice. For breeds or families of dogs susceptible to or affected with immune dysfunction, immune-mediated disease, immune-reactions associated with vaccinations, or autoimmune endocrine disease (e.g., thyroiditis, Addison's or Cushing's disease, diabetes, etc.) the above protocol is recommended.

After 1 year, annually measure serum antibody titers against specific canine infectious agents such as distemper and parvovirus. This is especially recommended for animals previously experiencing adverse vaccine reactions or breeds at higher risk for such reactions (e.g., Weimaraner, Akita, American Eskimo, Great Dane).

Another alternative to booster vaccinations is homeopathic nosodes. This option is considered an unconventional treatment that has not been scientifically proven to be efficacious. One controlled parvovirus nosode study did not adequately protect puppies under challenged conditions. However, data from Europe and clinical experience in North America support its use. If veterinarians choose to use homeopathic nosodes, their clients should be provided with an appropriate disclaimer and written informed consent should be obtained.

I use only killed 3 year rabies vaccine for adults and give it separated from other vaccines by 3-4 weeks. In some states, they may be able to give titer test result in lieu of booster.

I do NOT use Bordetella, corona virus, leptospirosis or Lyme vaccines unless these diseases are endemic in the local area pr specific kennel. Furthermore, the currently licensed leptospira bacterins do not contain the serovars causing the majority of clinical leptospirosis today.

I do NOT recommend vaccinating bitches during estrus, pregnancy or lactation.

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
HEMOPET


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My niece is now spending a fortune trying to keep her Aussy heallthy after it developed auto imune desease. It all started soon after the dog's last set of shots. :-k Go figure!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> My niece is now spending a fortune trying to keep her Aussy heallthy after it developed auto imune desease. It all started soon after the dog's last set of shots. :-k Go figure!


Was this distemper/parvo vax?

Or more?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Her vet gives the 7 in 1 shot. This dog is also her and her fiance's "baby" so my advice just put her on a crying jag and made me a mean old uncle. Shudda known better! :roll:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I give the first three shots and never look back. Been doing it that way for a long time.


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