# Opinions on Pedigree/Breeding



## Anthony Taylor

I would like to get peoples opinion on this breeding. I really like the male, he is young but I really like what i see from him. The pup would be for higher level IPO. Any opinion is appreciated

http://www.working-dog.eu/breed/van-den-Balkendreef-22132


A few videos of the male
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl05KQQzGjg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkQGEIRBnXE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1iD8BTZqwU


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## Katie Finlay

He's a nice dog, but I think you can get just as good a puppy or pedigree here, for a fraction of the cost.


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## Mario Fernandez

You should pick Ajay brain.. Just a quick glance...Some very nice dogs in the 3rd gen especially all the males...javir, Bandit ( I like him a lot), Tom and amingo...have vito and the kammberg kennel has produce some nice dogs over the years...


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## Anthony Taylor

Katie Finlay said:


> He's a nice dog, but I think you can get just as good a puppy or pedigree here, for a fraction of the cost.


Hey Katie, I think it's a false nomer when people tell you puppies are more expensive coming from Europe. In my 10 years, I have found it more cost effective to get a pup from Europe. 
Most peds and dogs i like are not in California, so that means shipping. shipping is usually 300-450. So a puppy is 1500-1800/1900 depending on breeder/dogs being breed. that's 1800-2300/2400. I can get my pups from europe for 1700 - 1900US. So for me I just go there. 
I do like some kennels here like Staatsmacht but I just like having connections all over. 
This is all my experience, others for sure may be different


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## Faisal Khan

Anthony Taylor said:


> I would like to get peoples opinion on this breeding. I really like the male, he is young but I really like what i see from him. The pup would be for higher level IPO. Any opinion is appreciated
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/breed/van-den-Balkendreef-22132
> 
> 
> A few videos of the male
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl05KQQzGjg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkQGEIRBnXE
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1iD8BTZqwU


Nice, top level dogs and training (can't get them here). That is top level sczhnit man, go for it!


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## Katie Finlay

Are you looking at dogs, or pedigrees? The dog has pretty papers, but he's not the best dog. I wouldn't want to go through the hassle of importing. I also forgot how much normal German Shepherd puppies cost. But at least he's easier to return if the pup's a crapper and the breeder is here!

No dogs in CA you like? Who have you looked at?


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## Anthony Taylor

Mario Fernandez said:


> You should pick Ajay brain.. Just a quick glance...Some very nice dogs in the 3rd gen especially all the males...javir, Bandit ( I like him a lot), Tom and amingo...have vito and the kammberg kennel has produce some nice dogs over the years...


My current pup is from Ajay, he's a really good guy and breeds awesome dogs. We have talked about Javier before and many others. But I just want to go a different route.


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## Anthony Taylor

Faisal Khan said:


> Nice, top level dogs and training (can't get them here). That is top level sczhnit man, go for it!


Can't really tell if this is sarcasm of not, lol


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## Anthony Taylor

Katie Finlay said:


> Are you looking at dogs, or pedigrees? The dog has pretty papers, but he's not the best dog. I wouldn't want to go through the hassle of importing. I also forgot how much normal German Shepherd puppies cost. But at least he's easier to return if the pup's a crapper and the breeder is here!
> 
> No dogs in CA you like? Who have you looked at?


IT always seems like people get a little offended when talking about dogs import vs buying in the US. I like what I like and no it is not just about a pedigree, it's about the dog and what he's doing. What people are seeing in him. I have spoke with people in Belgium who have given me both good and bad about him. There is no just "best" dog. Everyone's best is different. Import or US, if you work with a reputable breeder, doesn't matter where you get it from. Especially if they know you and know you are serious about the sport. 

I like certain things and not many dogs in California do it for me. I like Man VD Kine of course, Puk who i wanted a pup from but Randy had no breedings with him right now. everyone has there own vibe..................................


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## Mario Fernandez

Everybody likes what they like..I think their are some good dogs in CA that if I wanted to go the GSD route I would have no issues about getting a pup off them.


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## Anthony Taylor

Mario Fernandez said:


> Everybody likes what they like..I think their are some good dogs in CA that if I wanted to go the GSD route I would have no issues about getting a pup off them.


Mario, I totally agree that there are dogs I would love a pup from but certain combinations I am iffy about. But some people know breeders personally and that's great because you get a better feel for the breeder and dogs. 
A lot of times it's not even the dog but the relationship with this breeder and if the breeder says it's gonna be a good dog, you jump on it. 
Now I don't want to make it seem like there are no good dogs here because there are but like cars, some like a Ford/Chevy some like a Toyota/Nissan. some like Fero-free, some dont. We don't have to have tunnel-vision. 

I love dogs and I love interesting combinations, whether in the US, Europe, Asia, South America or even Africa!


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## Stefan Schaub

Mother line is to weak, good bloodline but not strong dogs by them self. Lilly was with me,not good enough!!!Lillys mom also not good,she have get on her 2 (on a club trial) not pronounce!!weak girl!!!worked her many times. Amigo was great,he have stay 2 years with me,crazy dog!!loved him.

and than on the top of the mother line Vito. do you really want Vito??

I do not know Kuemmel and i do not know how good he is, but Ronny is great trainer and it looks he will have success with him.


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## Gillian Schuler

Katie Finlay said:


> Are you looking at dogs, or pedigrees? The dog has pretty papers, but he's not the best dog. I wouldn't want to go through the hassle of importing. I also forgot how much normal German Shepherd puppies cost. But at least he's easier to return if the pup's a crapper and the breeder is here!
> 
> No dogs in CA you like? Who have you looked at?


What are "pretty papers"?

In all my years of owning and training dogs I have never returned or thought of returning a pup / dog.

I do my research seriously but even if the dog didn't reach 100% of my expectations, the training and trial results were satisfactory.

Maybe I'm unusual but fortunately I have never had a "dud" and this is certainly due to serious research of breed and breeders.

But just to say upfront:

*But at least he's easier to return if the pup's a crapper and the breeder is here*!

is in my mind crass.


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## Christopher Smith

Maybe you have never returned a dog because you have lower standards than others. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> What are "pretty papers"?
> 
> In all my years of owning and training dogs I have never returned or thought of returning a pup / dog.
> 
> I do my research seriously but even if the dog didn't reach 100% of my expectations, the training and trial results were satisfactory.
> 
> Maybe I'm unusual but fortunately I have never had a "dud" and this is certainly due to serious research of breed and breeders.
> 
> But just to say upfront:
> 
> *But at least he's easier to return if the pup's a crapper and the breeder is here*!
> 
> is in my mind crass.


Why do you think it's crass? Most people I know do research too, but it doesn't always work out. Some people have specific goals with their dogs, are limited in the amount of dogs they can handle, or want to handle, at one time. It's not like they're pets first and competition dogs second, and if it doesn't work out because the dog is a shitter or it's a poor fit, oh well maybe they can try again in 10 or 15 years. As long as the pup/dog ends up in a good home, it's certainly no skin off the dogs nose, and way better than being neglected because the owner only has time to work his/her serious prospect - if the owner happens to be in that category that he/she can house and afford more than one dog at a time.


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## Gillian Schuler

I had to laugh at your comments. Shall we exchange score book results?

I can easily scan mine and place them on here but only if you are willing to scan your score book results.

I stand by my comment that it is crass to say out front that one can return a pup easily in the USA if it doesn't meet the bill.

That the handler maybe doesn't recognize the quality of the pup is never an issue?


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## Katie Finlay

susan tuck said:


> Why do you think it's crass? Most people I know do research too, but it doesn't always work out. Some people have specific goals with their dogs, are limited in the amount of dogs they can handle, or want to handle, at one time. It's not like they're pets first and competition dogs second, and if it doesn't work out because the dog is a shitter or it's a poor fit, oh well maybe they can try again in 10 or 15 years. As long as the pup/dog ends up in a good home, it's certainly no skin off the dogs nose, and way better than being neglected because the owner only has time to work his/her serious prospect - if the owner happens to be in that category that he/she can house and afford more than one dog at a time.


Exactly. He said he wants a high level IPO competition dog. That's a lot different and harder to find than a club dog.

Anthony, I don't get offended at all by wanting to import. But we're in the same location and I know some really nice dogs out here. I was curious what you didn't like about them. I also think GSD people really love importing dogs for the reason that everyone thinks they're "better" over there. The best stud dogs in Germany have a full stud book, but once they hit the states they get no breedings. Why?


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## Katie Finlay

Gillian Schuler said:


> I had to laugh at your comments. Shall we exchange score book results?
> 
> I can easily scan mine and place them on here but only if you are willing to scan your score book results.
> 
> I stand by my comment that it is crass to say out front that one can return a pup easily in the USA if it doesn't meet the bill.
> 
> That the handler maybe doesn't recognize the quality of the pup is never an issue?


Oh this is going to get really good.


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> Why do you think it's crass? Most people I know do research too, but it doesn't always work out. Some people have specific goals with their dogs, are limited in the amount of dogs they can handle, or want to handle, at one time. It's not like they're pets first and competition dogs second, and if it doesn't work out because the dog is a shitter or it's a poor fit, oh well maybe they can try again in 10 or 15 years. As long as the pup/dog ends up in a good home, it's certainly no skin off the dogs nose, and way better than being neglected because the owner only has time to work his/her serious prospect - if the owner happens to be in that category that he/she can house and afford more than one dog at a time.


Susan, you have misunderstood me. To say "up front" without knowledge of a pup, one can return it is for me crass.

I am not talking about concrete cases where the pup really didn't meet up with the handlers demands.

On the other hand, I have to question how many handlers on here are in the position to state whether a pup will meet their demands? Many are first time owners and those who aren't could have done their research on a new pup better.


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## Gillian Schuler

Exactly. He said he wants a high level IPO competition dog. That's a lot different and harder to find than a club dog.

Many of our club dogs ae high level IPO competition dogs. 

That saying, they have been bought from a serious breeder and trained to this standard. The only way to get a "high competition dog" is to buy one with the necessary qualifications.


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## Katie Finlay

Gillian Schuler said:


> Exactly. He said he wants a high level IPO competition dog. That's a lot different and harder to find than a club dog.
> 
> Many of our club dogs ae high level IPO competition dogs.
> 
> That saying, they have been bought from a serious breeder and trained to this standard. The only way to get a "high competition dog" is to buy one with the necessary qualifications.


What are the names of the dogs?

And okay. Perhaps you have a club full of national champions. They got lucky and bought the right puppy. You can't tell at 8 weeks old whether you have a WUSV winner or not. So if the puppy doesn't turn out? It's crass to return it?

Can it not possibly be that it's the dog that has issues and not the handler?

Anthony already has an 8 month old. We're not talking about a first time owner here.

And be sure to give me the names of every dog in your club.


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## Gillian Schuler

Katie Finlay said:


> What are the names of the dogs?
> 
> And okay. Perhaps you have a club full of national champions. They got lucky and bought the right puppy. You can't tell at 8 weeks old whether you have a WUSV winner or not. So if the puppy doesn't turn out? It's crass to return it?
> 
> Can it not possibly be that it's the dog that has issues and not the handler?
> 
> Anthony already has an 8 month old. We're not talking about a first time owner here.
> 
> And be sure to give me the names of every dog in your club.


You are joking! Why should I? One of our club members was 3rd in he WUSV 2005, Eras von der Adelegg. 

Michi didn't just get lucky, he searched with help for the right dog. We all do, with help of our colleagues.

Occasionally, it can be the dog but more likely it is the handler who cannot get the dog over national trials to international trials.

Why be so officious?


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## Gillian Schuler

Katie Finlay said:


> What are the names of the dogs?
> 
> And okay. Perhaps you have a club full of national champions. They got lucky and bought the right puppy. You can't tell at 8 weeks old whether you have a WUSV winner or not. So if the puppy doesn't turn out? It's crass to return it?
> 
> Can it not possibly be that it's the dog that has issues and not the handler?
> 
> Anthony already has an 8 month old. We're not talking about a first time owner here.
> 
> And be sure to give me the names of every dog in your club.


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## Katie Finlay

Gillian Schuler said:


> You are joking! Why should I? One of our club members was 3rd in he WUSV 2005, Eras von der Adelegg.
> 
> Michi didn't just get lucky, he searched with help for the right dog. We all do, with help of our colleagues.
> 
> Occasionally, it can be the dog but more likely it is the handler who cannot get the dog over national trials to international trials.
> 
> Why be so officious?


So, in your opinion, 90% of dogs are national and world competitors? Please tell me more about this.

You're the one that wanted to share scorebooks with Chris. Why can't you list names of great dogs? You don't even have to scan anything in!


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> Occasionally, it can be the dog but more likely it is the handler who cannot get the dog over national trials to international trials.




WHAT COMPLETE NONSENSE!!! 

Every top handler either goes out and buys an adult dog for big money or they are going through a few pups looking for a good one capable of going to the top. If what you are saying is were true they could simply local animal shelter and bring home their next champion.


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## Gillian Schuler

Katie Finlay said:


> What are the names of the dogs?
> 
> And be sure to give me the names of every dog in your club.


What sort of juvenile question is that?

We have all sorts of qualifications and I have been a member of a few clubs but I can assure you that a number of them made their way to the top:

Pablo Körbelbach (DSH) Video mit Helmut Reisser
Eras Adalegg (DSH) 3. WUSV) Michael Brander
Luc du Domaine IPO Mannschaft Schweiz -Rita Trüeb
Roberto Jannone Baldo vom Seespitz in USA 200 und ?
There are obviously more but my memory fails me at the moment.


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## Faisal Khan

Anthony Taylor said:


> Can't really tell if this is sarcasm of not, lol


Easy, there is ZERO sarcasm  I really really like that dog and he is in the right hands. Is Ronny showing him at WUSV?


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## Gillian Schuler

Katie Finlay said:


> So, in your opinion, 90% of dogs are national and world competitors? Please tell me more about this.
> 
> You're the one that wanted to share scorebooks with Chris. Why can't you list names of great dogs? You don't even have to scan anything in!


Why are you being so officious? You were the one who said it was easy to give back to the pup to the breeder? I was only commenting on this.


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## Gillian Schuler

Katie Finlay said:


> So, in your opinion, 90% of dogs are national and world competitors? Please tell me more about this.
> 
> You're the one that wanted to share scorebooks with Chris. Why can't you list names of great dogs? You don't even have to scan anything in!


What are you babbling about? 90% of the dogs are national and world competitors????? I never mentioned this.

Actuall, I was replying to Chris - no idea why you felt like butting in:-\"


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## Faisal Khan

Cat fight


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## Gillian Schuler

Anthony Taylor

Sorry for the intervention but I can assure you that it didin't reflect on you. 

I wish you good luck with your dog.


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## Katie Finlay

Gillian Schuler said:


> What are you babbling about? 90% of the dogs are national and world competitors????? I never mentioned this.
> 
> Actuall, I was replying to Chris - no idea why you felt like butting in:-\"


You said that most puppies are good for world and national championships, and that the owners don't realize it.


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## Anthony Taylor

Gillian Schuler said:


> Anthony Taylor
> 
> Sorry for the intervention but I can assure you that it didin't reflect on you.
> 
> I wish you good luck with your dog.


Gillian, I am in no way offended by the back and forth. Dog people are passionate and I love it! As long as it's respectful and with merit. What I will say is, I do believe that if the dog isn't right for me, I would return him. If i was just to get a pet dog, i'd adopt and not pay 1500-2000 for a pup. 
The only reason i am keeping my current pup is his drive for the hunt is so crazy, I am switching him from IPO to SAR/Narc dog. Giving him to my ex and let her work with him, since he is way more into women. 
Just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.


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## Gillian Schuler

Katie Finlay said:


> You said that most puppies are good for world and national championships, and that the owners don't realize it.


I never said this.


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## Anthony Taylor

Faisal Khan said:


> Easy, there is ZERO sarcasm  I really really like that dog and he is in the right hands. Is Ronny showing him at WUSV?


I agree, I really like Kummel but it was the motherline i was iffy about. And Stefan kinda of helped me out. Vito was not the greatest and if the motherline included Ellute instead.....I would have been racing. 
Ronny is bringing him to Philly and will compete with him, so I am hoping to have a real good look and meet him.


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## Anthony Taylor

Katie Finlay said:


> Exactly. He said he wants a high level IPO competition dog. That's a lot different and harder to find than a club dog.
> 
> Anthony, I don't get offended at all by wanting to import. But we're in the same location and I know some really nice dogs out here. I was curious what you didn't like about them. I also think GSD people really love importing dogs for the reason that everyone thinks they're "better" over there. The best stud dogs in Germany have a full stud book, but once they hit the states they get no breedings. Why?


I wasn't saying you per say but I am sure you have been around long enough to hear the import vs US. I am not one to say that import is better but sometimes just the breeding fits you better. 
We are in the same local, prolly like 20mins from one another and we probably know the same dogs but...who is those dogs breeding with? I don't like to call out names but you see good dogs breeding with BS......I do not like that. 

I would say that certain people don't understand how valuable that dog is...in certain instances. How about Quardes VD Staatsmacht, Olex, Ernst, Lewis........all these dogs came to the US and Quardes is a super dog and I don't think he's getting crazy breedings but he should be.


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## Katie Finlay

Gillian Schuler said:


> I never said this.


You said: "That the handler maybe doesn't recognize the quality of the pup is never an issue?" 

And: "Occasionally, it can be the dog but <b>more likely it is the handler who cannot get the dog over national trials to international trials.</b>"

What did you mean by those statements?


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## Katie Finlay

Anthony Taylor said:


> I wasn't saying you per say but I am sure you have been around long enough to hear the import vs US. I am not one to say that import is better but sometimes just the breeding fits you better.
> We are in the same local, prolly like 20mins from one another and we probably know the same dogs but...who is those dogs breeding with? I don't like to call out names but you see good dogs breeding with BS......I do not like that.
> 
> I would say that certain people don't understand how valuable that dog is...in certain instances. How about Quardes VD Staatsmacht, Olex, Ernst, Lewis........all these dogs came to the US and Quardes is a super dog and I don't think he's getting crazy breedings but he should be.


My friend owns the best German Shepherd I've ever seen in my life. But he's only 18 months old. He's one of the best dogs I've ever seen in my life. If I were to get another shepherd, I would get it out of him. I researched two years for my first dog and waited another year and a half for my second...what's another year? Lol

To be honest, I'm done with German Shepherds. So I'm not looking at breedings, and I would never get one for high level IPO unless it was exceptional like my friend's. But his breeder produces some really nice dogs, although they rarely get ideal training, so it's hard to tell!


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## Anthony Taylor

Stefan Schaub said:


> Mother line is to weak, good bloodline but not strong dogs by them self. Lilly was with me,not good enough!!!Lillys mom also not good,she have get on her 2 (on a club trial) not pronounce!!weak girl!!!worked her many times. Amigo was great,he have stay 2 years with me,crazy dog!!loved him.
> 
> and than on the top of the mother line Vito. do you really want Vito??
> 
> I do not know Kuemmel and i do not know how good he is, but Ronny is great trainer and it looks he will have success with him.


Stefan, you were right on with what i have heard and was thinking. I would rather have Ellute or Eros than Vito for sure. Even Sid vh Pixner would have made a huge difference to me.


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## Anthony Taylor

Katie Finlay said:


> My friend owns the best German Shepherd I've ever seen in my life. But he's only 18 months old. He's one of the best dogs I've ever seen in my life. If I were to get another shepherd, I would get it out of him. I researched two years for my first dog and waited another year and a half for my second...what's another year? Lol
> 
> To be honest, I'm done with German Shepherds. So I'm not looking at breedings, and I would never get one for high level IPO unless it was exceptional like my friend's. But his breeder produces some really nice dogs, although they rarely get ideal training, so it's hard to tell!


See, the best Shepherd you know isn't even old enough to breed so to me, this happens a lot. I see some super dogs and then....not old enough or no plans to breed, so the search continues. Also to play the waiting games sucks! I have been into dogs for a long time, so i know the right breeding I will wait for but.....it has to be the right breeding, from the right breeder. To me it's a total package, if the breeder in an a$$, i would never buy a dog from him because I like the relationship to me made.

Would you PM me the dog you are referring to and the breeder, maybe it's sometime i would like to see and close. 
This is a dog in Cali I love but Randy has no breedings for him right now
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/894484/Puk-vom-Schloß-Weiler


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## Gillian Schuler

Anthony Taylor said:


> Stefan, you were right on with what i have heard and was thinking. I would rather have Ellute or Eros than Vito for sure. Even Sid vh Pixner would have made a huge difference to me.


I had a Sid Haus Pixner son.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Katie Finlay said:


> Exactly. He said he wants a high level IPO competition dog. That's a lot different and harder to find than a club dog.
> 
> Anthony, I don't get offended at all by wanting to import. But we're in the same location and I know some really nice dogs out here. I was curious what you didn't like about them. I also think GSD people really love importing dogs for the reason that everyone thinks they're "better" over there. The best stud dogs in Germany have a full stud book, but once they hit the states they get no breedings. Why?


I'm in the same area so I'm curious too. Where are these really nice dogs out here?! You named one who you said is exceptional. Yes, he's a good dog. Young and unproven as a stud obviously. So there's one local dog that can't even be considered. Where's the rest? I'm curious, because I'm not seeing them and I think I get out more than you and Anthony. 

Laura


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## Katie Finlay

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I'm in the same area so I'm curious too. Where are these really nice dogs out here?! You named one who you said is exceptional. Yes, he's a good dog. Young and unproven as a stud obviously. So there's one local dog that can't even be considered. Where's the rest? I'm curious, because I'm not seeing them and I think I get out more than you and Anthony.
> 
> Laura


Kummel doesn't have any offspring listed anywhere that I can find either. So they would both be unproven as stud dogs.

I PM'd Anthony the dogs I am talking about.


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## Anthony Taylor

Katie Finlay said:


> Kummel doesn't have any offspring listed anywhere that I can find either. So they would both be unproven as stud dogs.
> 
> I PM'd Anthony the dogs I am talking about.


Kummel is a young dog and Ronny likes to train his dogs high level so they are proved before being breed. So these will be his first breedings. I don't think you have to see offspring necessarily to want a pup from the dog. I want to see the dog perform, talk to people who know the dog and study the lines of the dog. Nothing will always be positive but if positives outweigh the negative, I think it's a win. 
Kummel I think will be a great dog and if the female want maybe a Ellute daughter instead, there would be no doubt. 

Got your PM and super agree on that dog!!!


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## Katie Finlay

Anthony Taylor said:


> Kummel is a young dog and Ronny likes to train his dogs high level so they are proved before being breed. So these will be his first breedings. I don't think you have to see offspring necessarily to want a pup from the dog. I want to see the dog perform, talk to people who know the dog and study the lines of the dog. Nothing will always be positive but if positives outweigh the negative, I think it's a win.
> Kummel I think will be a great dog and if the female want maybe a Ellute daughter instead, there would be no doubt.
> 
> Got your PM and super agree on that dog!!!


It was more in response to Laura pointing out that the young dog is unproven. As if Kümmel were proven.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

So really, by your count, there is really only one nice young dog around here. I was asking because you said there were good dogs around here as if they were breed worthy and I haven't seen them yet. 

You said you pm'ed Anthony the dogs you were talking about and he said he agreed about that dog. So are you still talking about nando, or are there more?

You piqued my interest as I am always appreciative of good dogs. 

Laura


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## Katie Finlay

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> So really, by your count, there is really only one nice young dog around here. I was asking because you said there were good dogs around here as if they were breed worthy and I haven't seen them yet.
> 
> You said you pm'ed Anthony the dogs you were talking about and he said he agreed about that dog. So are you still talking about nando, or are there more?
> 
> You piqued my interest as I am always appreciative of good dogs.
> 
> Laura


Nando and Maya, another dog named Khan. I like Arex a lot as well. Those are who I can think of, but again, I've been looking at Malinois litters mostly and am doing stuff with Corgis so I'm not actively seeking out good GSDs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> Mother line is to weak, good bloodline but not strong dogs by them self. Lilly was with me,not good enough!!!Lillys mom also not good,she have get on her 2 (on a club trial) not pronounce!!weak girl!!!worked her many times. Amigo was great,he have stay 2 years with me,crazy dog!!loved him.
> 
> and than on the top of the mother line Vito. do you really want Vito??
> 
> I do not know Kuemmel and i do not know how good he is, but Ronny is great trainer and it looks he will have success with him.


Anthony,

This is probably the best type of information you can hope for. I, too believe in the strength of the mother line. I look for a male that has a strong mother. That's the most ideal for me. I'm kinda like Gillian, I don't believe in the puppy is a crap shoot theory, if you know what you are looking at. The breeder also starts it and the trainer finishes it. It can be the issue of crapper puppy vs. crapper trainer. I also don't return anything. Take the time to research dogs/breeders etc. and don't be in a rush. Sometimes you don't have all the information and you gamble but you know you are gambling. As for the buy USA vs. import, that's your business and money. No need to justify it and who cares if there is something available in CA according to someone else. 

T


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## Anthony Taylor

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> So really, by your count, there is really only one nice young dog around here. I was asking because you said there were good dogs around here as if they were breed worthy and I haven't seen them yet.
> 
> You said you pm'ed Anthony the dogs you were talking about and he said he agreed about that dog. So are you still talking about nando, or are there more?
> 
> You piqued my interest as I am always appreciative of good dogs.
> 
> Laura


Nando and Maya are very nice dogs. Nando is still very young and I don't know his hips/elbow score or his nerves on a trial field(home or away) so that's TBD. Maya.......if I could buy her i could and breed her to Puk. 
Laura, I think you agree that is not much here in California but there are some. Mac vd Kine for sure, Calry Policia, and Puk. I like him and being a Nash son makes him even better. 

If i was looking at males, I would want one from someone breeding from KNPV type mals.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Anthony Taylor said:


> Kummel is a young dog and Ronny likes to train his dogs high level so they are proved before being breed. So these will be his first breedings. I don't think you have to see offspring necessarily to want a pup from the dog. I want to see the dog perform, talk to people who know the dog and study the lines of the dog. Nothing will always be positive but if positives outweigh the negative, I think it's a win.
> Kummel I think will be a great dog and if the female want maybe a Ellute daughter instead, there would be no doubt.
> 
> Got your PM and super agree on that dog!!!


Anthony, you might like that dog but as far as whether he will produce himself or better, I think it's good to wait and see. Its also interesting to look at the siblings and how the sire and dam produced. Is he a fluke or is this part of consistent production?

T


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## Stefan Schaub

Anthony Taylor said:


> See, the best Shepherd you know isn't even old enough to breed so to me, this happens a lot. I see some super dogs and then....not old enough or no plans to breed, so the search continues. Also to play the waiting games sucks! I have been into dogs for a long time, so i know the right breeding I will wait for but.....it has to be the right breeding, from the right breeder. To me it's a total package, if the breeder in an a$$, i would never buy a dog from him because I like the relationship to me made.
> 
> Would you PM me the dog you are referring to and the breeder, maybe it's sometime i would like to see and close.
> This is a dog in Cali I love but Randy has no breedings for him right now
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/894484/Puk-vom-Schloß-Weiler


If he works like his papers look than he must be a good one!!!Yoschy,Sid,Charel,Aly Nash and more


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## Christopher Smith

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> You said you pm'ed Anthony the dogs you were talking about and he said he agreed about that dog. So are you still talking about nando, or are there more?


Well his father is here. And the same breeding as Nando has made 3 litters. 

But I agree with your basic premise that there are not a lot of good GSDs in SoCal. But I don't think there are a lot anywhere else either. 


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## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> Susan, you have misunderstood me. To say "up front" without knowledge of a pup, one can return it is for me crass.
> 
> I am not talking about concrete cases where the pup really didn't meet up with the handlers demands.
> 
> On the other hand, I have to question how many handlers on here are in the position to state whether a pup will meet their demands? Many are first time owners and those who aren't could have done their research on a new pup better.


Thanks for the clarification, Gillian. You're right, I misunderstood you. I wouldn't say this about any of the members of this forum, but I do agree that sometimes it's not so much that the pup is not of good enough quality, sometimes a dog can be too much for a handler, and some times people and dogs just aren't a good fit. And then there are some people who seem to never get a good dog, they wash out every pup they start, never a dog good enough, but if they would take a hard look in the mirror they might realize the constant in their ever changing equation is themselves!!!!!!


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## Katie Finlay

Christopher Smith said:


> Well his father is here. And the same breeding as Nando has made 3 litters.
> 
> But I agree with your basic premise that there are not a lot of good GSDs in SoCal. But I don't think there are a lot anywhere else either.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I never said there were a lot. I said there were "some." Laura decided that "some" meant "many."


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Katie Finlay said:


> I never said there were a lot. I said there were "some." Laura decided that "some" meant "many."


I think I missed the part where I said many. I was looking for more than one. you listed the "some"local dogs that you like so I got it now. 

I like dogs too but I don't see potential studs often. 

Laura


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## Christopher Smith

Why are the dogs you like not potential stud dogs?

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## Katie Finlay

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I think I missed the part where I said many. I was looking for more than one. you listed the "some"local dogs that you like so I got it now.
> 
> I like dogs too but I don't see potential studs often.
> 
> Laura


I guess the "where are all these dogs" makes it sound like there are handfuls.


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## Anthony Taylor

Ok.......so, I thin it's been established that there are only a few good studs studs in California. I would say there are many more breedable males but breed-worthy is a total different ballgame. And everyone has a different view on that. 
I doubt anyone could name even 5 males that are just super! But IPO or any dog sport for that matter aren't big out here. As it grows, more will come. Once the west coast becomes relevant in sport, it'll happen.


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## Christopher Smith

Anthony how long have you been in the sport and how much have you been seen of the sport outside of SoCal?

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## Laura Bollschweiler

Christopher Smith said:


> Why are the dogs you like not potential stud dogs?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What I said (or meant to) was that while I see dogs I like for whatever reason, it's less often that I see a potential stud dog. Personally I like funny dogs. I like dogs that look like they are fun to train. Doesn't mean I want to breed to them. 

I've seen some breedings to dogs that I think wtf, who's going to be able to handle that? and out comes joe sport dog. 

So at the risk of proving my stupidity, this is what I think: joe sport dog x jane sport dog doesn't always make good dogs.

Laura


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## Anthony Taylor

Christopher Smith said:


> Anthony how long have you been in the sport and how much have you been seen of the sport outside of SoCal?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have been around dogs, training for about 10 years now. I have been in IPO long enough to know quite a few dogs. See them in person and make a good network of people who know more than i, to learn from. but not sure how relevant that is to this topic and what is being discussed.


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## Katie Finlay

Anthony Taylor said:


> I have been around dogs, training for about 10 years now. I have been in IPO long enough to know quite a few dogs. See them in person and make a good network of people who know more than i, to learn from. but not sure how relevant that is to this topic and what is being discussed.


I think to say that the west coast was not relevant in sport was a little surprising, considering schutzhund in the US started in California.


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## Christopher Smith

Anthony Taylor said:


> I have been around dogs, training for about 10 years now. I have been in IPO long enough to know quite a few dogs. See them in person and make a good network of people who know more than i, to learn from. but not sure how relevant that is to this topic and what is being discussed.


I'm just trying to make your back story add up. 

You have never imported a dog, have you?

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## Christopher Smith

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> What I said (or meant to) was that while I see dogs I like for whatever reason, it's less often that I see a potential stud dog. Personally I like funny dogs. I like dogs that look like they are fun to train. Doesn't mean I want to breed to them.
> 
> I've seen some breedings to dogs that I think wtf, who's going to be able to handle that? and out comes joe sport dog.
> 
> So at the risk of proving my stupidity, this is what I think: joe sport dog x jane sport dog doesn't always make good dogs.
> 
> Laura


That's not stupid at all.

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## Anthony Taylor

Katie Finlay said:


> I think to say that the west coast was not relevant in sport was a little surprising, considering schutzhund in the US started in California.


Not sure why it is surprising, I mean all you have to do is look at the more serious and successful clubs. Mid-West, South, East. California, may have started ScH (didn't know this, interesting)in the US but we are now lagging. Try to find a serious IPO club, they are few and far between.


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## Anthony Taylor

Christopher Smith said:


> I'm just trying to make your back story add up.
> 
> You have never imported a dog, have you?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes I have


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## Sue DiCero

Katie Finlay said:


> I think to say that the west coast was not relevant in sport was a little surprising, considering schutzhund in the US started in California.


Northern Cal. Anthony is in the other state  Ducking and hiding !


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> Thanks for the clarification, Gillian. You're right, I misunderstood you. I wouldn't say this about any of the members of this forum, but I do agree that sometimes it's not so much that the pup is not of good enough quality, sometimes a dog can be too much for a handler, and some times people and dogs just aren't a good fit. And then there are some people who seem to never get a good dog, they wash out every pup they start, never a dog good enough, but if they would take a hard look in the mirror they might realize the constant in their ever changing equation is themselves!!!!!!


Glad we settled that - couldn't agree more.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Sue DiCero said:


> Northern Cal. Anthony is in the other state  Ducking and hiding !


Okay, THAT was funny!! =D>

Laura


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## Sue DiCero

Anthony Taylor said:


> Not sure why it is surprising, I mean all you have to do is look at the more serious and successful clubs. Mid-West, South, East. California, may have started ScH (didn't know this, interesting)in the US but we are now lagging. Try to find a serious IPO club, they are few and far between.


True sport clubs for IPO are few and far inbetween. True training and good helpers - same. One of the best is 8 hours north (Greg Doud) and and another is 5 hours south (Joey Leigh) of us....


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## Katie Finlay

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Okay, THAT was funny!! =D>
> 
> Laura


*snort*

Oh you guys!


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## Anthony Taylor

Sue DiCero said:


> Northern Cal. Anthony is in the other state  Ducking and hiding !


LOL hahaha yes the Bay area has a few really good clubs, Menlo Park for sure! So does So Cal but still doesn't make Cali relevant in the sport of IPO......in my opinion.


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## Anthony Taylor

Sue DiCero said:


> True sport clubs for IPO are few and far inbetween. True training and good helpers - same. One of the best is 8 hours north (Greg Doud) and and another is 5 hours south (Joey Leigh) of us....


Yes, I have noticed it. I am lucky to have found a very good club with a great helper to study helper work under.


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## Katie Finlay

Anthony Taylor said:


> LOL hahaha yes the Bay area has a few really good clubs, Menlo Park for sure! So does So Cal but still doesn't make Cali relevant in the sport of IPO......in my opinion.


Seriously? Do you know how many people from So Cal have been to nationals and higher?


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## Anthony Taylor

Katie Finlay said:


> Seriously? Do you know how many people from So Cal have been to nationals and higher?


Yes, please tell me how many people from So Cal in last 5years have been to nationals or higher, from their own training. Not an import that was already trained. 
Who showed well. Let's say top 5


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Anthony Taylor said:


> Yes, please tell me how many people from So Cal in last 5years have been to nationals or higher, from their own training. Not an import that was already trained.
> Who showed well. Let's say top 5


Who finished in the top 5 of a national competition? How many regions (except for the obvious one that I can think of offhand) can say that?

If you want a list of people in So Cal that competed at nationals or higher in the last five years, I can start naming names if you would like.

Laura


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## Katie Finlay

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Who finished in the top 5 of a national competition? How many regions (except for the obvious one that I can think of offhand) can say that?
> 
> If you want a list of people in So Cal that competed at nationals or higher in the last five years, I can start naming names if you would like.
> 
> Laura


Including yourself! And props to you. There are a ton of people here who worked very hard from zero to IPO 3 and done well.


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## Anthony Taylor

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Who finished in the top 5 of a national competition? How many regions (except for the obvious one that I can think of offhand) can say that?
> 
> If you want a list of people in So Cal that competed at nationals or higher in the last five years, I can start naming names if you would like.
> 
> Laura



I would love a list and if they train with a club or alone. I would love to train with more people who take sport serious. 
The reason I said top 5 was the "nationals or higher." I respect anyone who attains a 3 or just respects the sport and takes it seriously.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Hi, Anthony


Just my opinion, but I think the majority of people who make it to nationals or higher aren't just training with a club. I know it seems that way on the surface, but when you really talk to them, they have private training time with just the folks that are very, very good. 


I will PM you a list of So Cal names, but if I put clubs with the names, it's not going to give you a fair idea of who got them there. I know in most of the cases what I said above is true...they have a club PLUS.


I will use me as an example. When I was getting ready for nationals, I did belong to a club. But my coach is the one who got me there. I appreciate everything the club did for me, don't get me wrong. But it was Mark who trained me and my dog for national-level competition, plus the help of like a hundred people. It takes someone who has been there and done that to get you where you really want to go. I'm sure there will be disagreement with that, but that's my opinion.

Laura


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## Katie Finlay

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Hi, Anthony
> 
> 
> Just my opinion, but I think the majority of people who make it to nationals or higher aren't just training with a club. I know it seems that way on the surface, but when you really talk to them, they have private training time with just the folks that are very, very good.
> 
> 
> I will PM you a list of So Cal names, but if I put clubs with the names, it's not going to give you a fair idea of who got them there. I know in most of the cases what I said above is true...they have a club PLUS.
> 
> 
> I will use me as an example. When I was getting ready for nationals, I did belong to a club. But my coach is the one who got me there. I appreciate everything the club did for me, don't get me wrong. But it was Mark who trained me and my dog for national-level competition, plus the help of like a hundred people. It takes someone who has been there and done that to get you where you really want to go. I'm sure there will be disagreement with that, but that's my opinion.
> 
> Laura


I don't disagree in the slightest.


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## Mario Fernandez

Anthony Taylor said:


> LOL hahaha yes the Bay area has a few really good clubs, Menlo Park for sure! So does So Cal but still doesn't make Cali relevant in the sport of IPO......in my opinion.



WOW...Need to get out more..... IPO is a cycle, dogs get old and get retire and time to bring up the young ones (my favorite time)... You will see the shift or relevance very shortly..

Last 12 months...two big placement winners from So Cal...David Green 3rd at the FMBB, Chris Kutelis 2nd at the WDC this year. Regardless of their Mals...to get those placements they be the first to admit it was a team that help them..


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## Christopher Smith

Laura that last post was spot on. Well done.

Anthony there are over 15 protection sport clubs within about a two hour drive of Los Angeles. This is more than anywhere else in the country that I know of. (Someone please correct me if you know of a place in north america that has more than that.) The majority of which have at a least a couple of national competitors. I do find it amusing however that you left a club with several national competitors to go train at a club that no one has even earned a V score at a club trial or put a 3 on a dog, and that includes training director. 

And a quick FYI for you. The world is small, but the dog world is microscopic. Everything you say or do is easily verifiable. 

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## Anthony Taylor

Christopher Smith said:


> Laura that last post was spot on. Well done.
> 
> Anthony there are over 15 protection sport clubs within about a two hour drive of Los Angeles. This is more than anywhere else in the country that I know of. (Someone please correct me if you know of a place in north america that has more than that.) The majority of which have at a least a couple of national competitors. I do find it amusing however that you left a club with several national competitors to go train at a club that no one has even earned a V score at a club trial or put a 3 on a dog, and that includes training director.
> 
> And a quick FYI for you. The world is small, but the dog world is microscopic. Everything you say or do is easily verifiable.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


LOL I did belong to a club that was out of the way for me when I realized my pup wasn't going to be in IPO. If it was taken a different way, don't know why. I don't believe in the taking jabs at people but OK. 

I am referring only to IPO not other Protection sports but thank you. And this thread was started about a dog pedigree, not about me. I dont bad mouth anyone, just speak to what i see and like.


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## Katie Finlay

There are 18 USCA clubs in Southern California.


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## Stacey Beller

WTF does half of this post pertain to original question?

Another WDF thread gone wrong IMHO

:-({|=:-({|=:-({|=


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