# More questions.



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

If ten percent of the Bloodhound hype is true, why would anyone search with any other breed?



How are searches initiated ? Assuming mostly police reports, including park rangers etc.

I am assuming that if there is no known starting point someone lays out a grid and dogs
and handlers search each segment. Assuming rural or wilderness area.
Assuming this is off leash and basically air scenting?
How much does the handler direct?
How far away does the dog typically get?
What happens when the dog makes a find?
What happens when dogs searching adjacent sections meet up?

Assuming dogs usually 50 pounds or more, but not much more than 100
Roughly what are the breed distributions?

Assuming disasters like earthquakes are a specialty.
Assuming smaller, more agile dogs?
Typical breeds?

A couple of good over all reference books or web sites?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That's a good question and I am eagerly awaiting the answers.

Just one maybe naive question - if the person is a criminal. Have you ever been kissed by a Bloodhound?


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Most bad guys dont know the difference when faced with a dog that wants to launch at them. 100lb bloodhound VERY intimidating!Will also run with apprehension k9, taking hound off when it shows proximity alert, and letting apprehension k9 do the rest. Chances are, the hound has far far more training in trail/track then patrol k9. If no patrol k9, will use overwatch team. Some hounds can also be aggressive. (Bill Tolhurst had rough bh's)( Terry Holstine has pretty rough hounds I believe (coonhounds I think)).

In my county, the patrol guys wont even attempt a track anymore if my hounds are available.

Why doesnt everyone use bloodhound for trailing? Single purpose not necessarily cost effective for small department. Most can only be worked on lead-they dont listen very well! Some departments want FST rather than trailing, easier for evidence, although if you understand scent theory you can direct ppl to where evidence could be. Bloodhounds dont generally do FST very well. They dont train quite the same as a GSD, etc. GSD ppl oriented and listen well. Bloodhound.. lol.. not so much!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Bloodhounds can be a good speciality dog and our sherrif department uses them as first line for missing persons. Well trained bloodhounds, too. 

The fact that there is a "second line" of calling in the SAR teams says-not 100% - they have limitations, too.

I have met some pretty nasty bloodhounds though. They are not necessarily ALL cuddles. And some are quite nervy.

Offlead.......nah.........Air Scent....nope. 

But, if properly trained with a handler who knows how to handle and read them they are a great resources. I have seem some handlers, mainly out in rural counties though that can't read a negative, don't know how to cast and most bloodhounds I have seen will take a game trail if it interests them but the good handlers know how to read the difference in the dog and put them back on task. 

Give the good SAR handlers some credit. Any team needs the experience in training of old trails, working out large scent pools, broken up scent pools, and understanding scent theory. Some figure a once a week 30 minute old trail with a known start point in the woods is all the dog needs to run a 12 hour old trail crossing streets etc when you don't really know where the victim started...that goes for LE and SAR.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Huntington Beach PD had a rape which was thought to be a serial rapist from neighboring Seal Beach. They took the Bloodhound to the victim which tracked suspect to the street where a car had been parked. It then proceeded to track the car on HST (obviously) running down the road on leash through traffic, my friend said it almost killed his soon retiring sargent. But it found a car five miles away on hours old scent, then went to front door of a house that was answered by a male who said the car was roommates whom the dog indicated. He was convicted, so great story.
Also I tell clients with their cute little Bassett or little Beagle that may be chasing their cat that hounds are natural born killers :-\"


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Lots of questions there Jim.. we could probably write a book with all the answers! :-D

Personally, regarding bloodhounds, they aren't used more I think, because of the handlers. I'm sure a few bloodhound owners will disagree with me and of course, the exceptions make the rules. But in general, most people handling bloodhounds due so as volunteers. There are only probably a very small percentage of police and sheriff departments that keep hounds as single purpose tracking dogs. I think Mel is an exception and one my K9 bucket list items is to get an opportunity to go down and see his dogs work. Even those using them in these departments are probably using them because of an officer's love of tracking and bloodhounds. Not primarily as a department mandate. I.e. if that officer retires, they won't go placing an ad for a officer with bloodhound experience.

So the big thing is you are relying on handlers deciding they like bloodhounds and want to work with them. As already mentioned, bloodhounds can have some issues and are never in the top ten of most popular dog choices. They slobber a lot, they are big dogs, 100lb range or more, they have some regular health issues that have to be kept on top of, (the wrinkled face folds have to be monitored and cleaned, ear infections are common, musk glands can get clogged). As has already been mentioned some lines of bloodhounds are not the friendliest dogs. They can be clumsy around the house. But they can be big lovable lugs too. Anyway.. it takes special people willing to keep bloodhounds and train them for tracking. 

Most SAR teams are volunteers and most SAR dogs are family pets. Most people find their way to SAR via a family connection, a friend, or suddenly finding themselves with a dog where they realize they have to find a job for them. Few of these types are going to have picked a bloodhound for their family pet. 75-80% of these wash out because of handler or dog. A few become real keepers for the team. Most of those dogs are going to be in the common breeds of Labs, retriever's and GSD's. I haven't seen many Mali's with new handlers. Mali's seem to come aboard as a handler's second SAR dog when they need to replace their first and want a change of breed or something different.

For rubble type of work, I don't think bloodhounds have the required agility or the chops for the obedience required. For wilderness they don't tend to air scent which is what is mostly used for wilderness. They could probably do HRD if trained for it, but again they just aren't as handler friendly. Their size would also be a drawback when moving into water HRD.

Also a big factor is ease of travel. Traveling and transporting 100 lb dogs can be difficult. The 50-80 pounders make life a lot easier.

Here is a link to the FEMA roster and it gives a breakdown of the USAR dogs currently certified. This is from 2011 and is strictly the rubble/disaster dogs but I'd say the percentages of breeds used here mirror pretty well the general SAR community. 
disasterdog.org/pdf/*roster*s/2011/*K9*/*K9Roster*_Oct2011.pdf

There are a lot of breeds used in SAR not mentioned in the list but not in significant numbers. 

Disaster dogs, (AKA FEMA dogs), are a specialty area. The breeds used however are not markedly different then those used for other types of SAR work. Maybe the one exception might be avalanche dogs where sizes might gravitate to the heavier breeds and heavier specimens within a breed line.

I think it comes back to traveling. The larger the dog, the harder the logistics. Also the larger the breed or dog, the shorter the working life of the dog. But much under 50 lbs and they don't have the size needed to navigate the terrain required for their work. Mine is 55 lbs and is on the small size for wilderness work. 60-90 lbs seems to be the sweet spot.

Craig


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Here's a link to Marlene Zähner's Bloodhounds (btw, one of her young dogs did jump up and kiss me!):

http://www.nbas.ch/


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, just seen it's only in German but if you navigate to Publikationen you will see an article written by and English woman about training the Bloodhounds.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Jim Engel said:


> How are searches initiated ? Assuming mostly police reports, including park rangers etc.
> 
> I am assuming that if there is no known starting point someone lays out a grid and dogs
> and handlers search each segment. Assuming rural or wilderness area.
> ...


Usually most search teams require a police or fire department to request them. Or some other official government agency like a County Park Range, State conservation officer, National Park ranger, etc..
Usually this doesn't happen until at least 24-36 hrs after the person is reported missing unless it becomes a high profile case in the media quickly. I.e. lost childern under 15 are biggies. The blonde, blue-eyed cheerleader from the wealthy family whose always been a "good" girl. Sometimes an Alzheimer's patient will get early publicity. The missing drunk or drug addict, the mentally depressed, even the overdue hiker, not so much.

This is a another reason many SAR teams don't put a big emphasis on tracking. Rarely are we called early enough to have a viable track without heavy contamination from family members and other searchers. The trackers come more into play when a new clue is found during a search and/or a new PLS is determined that hasn't been contaminated.

There are several techniques for how it is done and if you want to really learn about it, the handbook for search managers is a good reference and most search managers and teams carry this book with them all the time. 
http://www.nasar.org/products/141/The-Handbook-for-Managing-Land-Search-Operations

But in short, yes, a search manager usually works with a few experienced people and people with intimate knowledge of the area to determine areas of high probability. Depending on the length of time or conditions a tracking team might be started immediately. If a direction of travel is known, that can help and sometime the trackers can get that. Again, depending on time, some type of containment might be tried. Easier to do this in the urban/rural interface than in true wilderness areas. This entails putting spotters out at key places to keep some one from crossing a road or river. A good use of all the extra volunteers that show up and want to "do" something.

Hasty teams are usually sent out first, primarily along trails, utility lines, streams, rivers, logging lines, fire cuts, etc.. These might be air scent dog teams or they might be ATV teams, horseback riders etc.. The more mobile ATV's and horseback might be sent out to the farther reaches looking for signs or clues of the person came by or the victim themselves. The dog teams are used in the higher probability areas where the person might have wondered just off the trail. 

After hasty searches, they plan their area and grid searches. These are usually broken up into areas with logical boundaries, (a river, road, power line) of about 80 up to 160 acres depending on the dog teams available. Teams are assigned to the areas best suited to the team. Ideally each dog team has one dog, one handler, one navigator and at least two flankers. But some may wind up with just a dog, handler and navigator.

The final search is an intensive grid line. These are very difficult, time-consuming and man-poer intensive. These use searchers spaced no more than about 10 feet apart in most cases. They basically form a line and walk slowly through the given area. The lines can be 100 or more people in length, usually broken up into 20-25 people segments with a group leader that keeps the line together and spaced and aligned with the other groups. The group leaders should be trained searchers. The others are often volunteers that are given a 15-20 minute instruction. This will usually obliterate any evidence if not discovered, destroy the vegetation and usually be a real, over all mess.

As far as the basic air scenting questions.
How far a dog ranges depends on the dog and their training. I know some air scent dogs are gone the moment they are left off leash and you hardly see them. They come back and check in with their handlers once in a while. Mine stays relatively close. Maybe 30-50 yds in front of me and 50-75 to either side at any given time. 

They should need very little direction by the handler. I will sometimes direct her to a particularly large windfall of debris or maybe down into a ravine or to the opposite side of a stream if I'm not sure she checked it out well enough. Some dry gulches, ravines or waterways can carry scent at the bottom of them from far uphill or upstream and if they just stay at the top of the embankment it can be missed.

Upon a find it depends on the trained alert. If its a refind dog it returns to the handler and alerts. Either a jump alert on the handler, barking at the handler, I saw one the lies down at the handler. The handler has a second command, the "Show me!" command. The dog than races back to the subject hopefully with the handler in close pursuit. Depending on how far out the subject is, it might be repeated 2 or 3 times. A bark alert dog remains with the subject and barks until the handler finds the dog and subject. Some European teams train a Bringsel alert where the dog has a soft toy like device hanging from their collar. When they find the subject, the dog takes the bringsel in his mouth and returns to the handler. Pretty much a re-find dog.

There are good things and bad things about both alerts. Often times a dog during training will show a preference themselves for one or the other.

Usually dog teams working in adjoining areas isn't a big problem. Managers should try to stagger the placement of teams so this doesn't happen. If it does, the handlers should be in radio contact and be aware a team is operating in an adjoining area. It's usually mostly a problem for the downwind team. If the dog does alert on them, you praise the dog and move on. Using scent specific air-scent dogs can help with that. But many teams don't have them. I know Nancy says that's all they have. But I think her area is an exception from what I have seen.

In addition, you shouldn't be crossing into another area so if both your nav skills are good, the opportunity for being impacted by an adjoining team should be minimal. Usually the problem is someone goes into another teams area by mistake.

If your dog indicates on live scent and takes you into an adjoining area, it is the handler's responsibility to contact command, let them know they are leaving their assigned area due to scent and to ascertain the location of the team in the adjoining area from command or get permission to go into direct communication with the adjoining team.

Hopefully this helps. The NASAR site I provided a link to in the previous posting has several books available on the different types of SAR dogs, training them and using them.

Craig


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

In regards to my post this bloodhound was a volunteer dog & used mostly for lost people. I saw him worked to find an Alzheimer's patient, which he fould also. Just a FYI to other posts.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Actually, in the South just about all the sheriff's departments keep a bloodhound x **** cross I think. It seems that way though training quality is highly variable.

We are typically put on standby as soon as the sheriff starts on a missing person call and either get put on stand down if they find the person or go in if they deploy us. Most of the time they find them quickly.

I would say we usually hit the ground within about 4-6 hours of the person missing. Have a few good trailing dogs is important to help establish the best direction to focus the air scent teams.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy,

I'm curious. How often does your team get called out in a given month or year?

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

It varies. Our average has been about 30 calls a year half live, half HR. There has been a drop this past year but other teams nearby we have spoken with have seen a similar drop. Though a different team we have talked with has seen a rise, primarily dementia.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*The Bottem Line*

Somebody needs to write a good search and rescue book that
is not a training manual but focuses on history and current
practice.

This is all very interesting, and I will study it carefully as I write
on my small related section in my chapter on scent work.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

By the way, any idea where I could watch some
serious Search and Rescue near Chicago?

Also, I would be particularly interested in seeing a Bloodhound work.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I agree with Jim and find it fascinating. Scent work is my newest thing to study. Also wondering if there is any specialized breeding for SAR--particularly bloodhounds? Mel??

T


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I have heard of a few people breeding working hounds. Have never seen them work. The show style hound has so much skin and bulk as to make them almost a danger to themselves when working. My male crashes into things. My female is working type and doesnt have that problem, but she would place last at a bh conformation class!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

mel boschwitz said:


> I have heard of a few people breeding working hounds. Have never seen them work. The show style hound has so much skin and bulk as to make them almost a danger to themselves when working. My male crashes into things. My female is working type and doesnt have that problem, but she would place last at a bh conformation class!


Well we all know how right those conformation judges and breed standards can be about form and function. Mel, how do you go about locating and selecting bloodhounds for SAR?

T


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm afraid you're getting the idea I am some hound guru. I am not. Trained 2 of my own (plus a few other breeds), and helped train several others for other people, but they already had their hounds. Some of them I have liked, some I have not. The ones that didnt make it had as many handler issues as suitability issues. Of the two I have, one was chosen for me (my male, who has issues), and the female I chose after talking with the rescue coordinator (she's just plain fun). But how much of that is her being a better dog or my being a better handler when I got her? Dunno. So I cant really answer your question. If Terry H. reads this he has set up a good breeding program with his coonhounds, and can probably answer your question.


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