# What has competition done



## Don Turnipseed

Training and dogs? Heeling has a specific purpose. Take your dog out for a walk, on or off leash, and be able to enjoy the walk. Who wants to walk with a dog pressed up against your leg staring up at you for 5 miles. No one I know. It is insane but that is peoples idea of a good heel today. It is good for nothing outside of a ring but people have lost track of it's original purpose

Same thing with bite sports. A good solid dog doesn't earn points. Everything has become about flash, not good dogs. What is the matter with this picture???? Flash doesn't make good dogs.


----------



## Bob Scott

The good dogs and handlers (that want to) can turn that "flash" on and off for the ring or just hangin around. 
It's about competition. Some live for that only, some have no use for it and some enjoy both ends of living with a house dog that is a competition dog or viseversa!
Every competition dog I've ever had was/is also my family pet and I've had some "good solid dogs" that were flashy as all get out when needed.
Kinda like having fun with a friendly game of catch or a serious ballgame.
Not all can or even want to do both. Nothing wrong with that either!
ALL my dogs can do a flashy, formal heeling in addition to a simple walk on lead, or a walk without a lead. It's all in what you want and expect from a dog.


----------



## brad robert

Bob hit it on the head.I also think don that some of these highly driven behaviours especially working under distractions etc can really be usefull in a house dog/pet if you channel it correctly.


----------



## Tanya Beka

For me it is about the journey - no matter what I teach my dogs, we learn together. Whether we are working on precision heeling, bitework or a silly trick, we are working TOGETHER on something and that's what my dogs and I love to do best. We build our bond, grow as a team and build a solid relationship. The outcome for me is not the final product, but the journey that takes us there...


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

The phrase "good, solid dog" is subjective. A good, solid sport dog is probably not going to be the best good, solid police dog. And a good, solid police dog is most likely not the best good, solid house dog. I think you get my point. I probably don't need to go on and on about what (in my opinion) makes a dog better for a specific task, but I think the point is we (hopefully) choose dogs that are best for the end we wish to achieve. 

Personally, I think I own a good, solid dog. My sport dog is actually quite a good house dog. Stealing food left readily accessible is about the worst of her offenses. She'll give me a nearly flawless attention heel when I ask for it, but I can also take her out for a walk or jog and she'll run right along with me without giving me attention. I can take her into the woods and just let her run ahead of me and trust her not to roam too far (save the appearance of a brave or stupid deer). She probably would have actually made a pretty good police dog as well, but most of our training efforts are focused on sport because that's what's most accessible to me as a civilian. I once taught her an article search in, oh, about 5 minutes because I lost my keys in a field of knee high grass at night (I have witnesses if you don't believe me). She does party tricks. I can pet her when I feel like it, but she leaves me alone most of the time because I'm not really the affectionate type. I could go on ...but really, there's not much that's not good about her. She's not perfect, but nothing is ever perfect to a perfectionist. But, she seems pretty good and solid to me.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is insane but that is peoples idea of a good heel today. It is good for nothing outside of a ring but people have lost track of it's original purpose
> 
> Same thing with bite sports. A good solid dog doesn't earn points. Everything has become about flash, not good dogs. What is the matter with this picture???? Flash doesn't make good dogs.


Don, you shouldn't talk about things you know so little about. [-X


----------



## Jehane Michael Le Grange

Bob nailed this one right on the head. 

Its all about how you raise and train the dog. The intent heel is the dogs way of asking for a reward and is a seperate behaviour all together from an informal walk in the park. Most dogs know when to switch on and when to switch off, well at least a good trainer will usually do that with every dog. Its all about drive and flash, when the handler wants it. 

I dont know about others experiences but my personal dog gave me good solid attentive heeling and then could just as easily be calm and relaxed walking next to me on a loose lead. The same thing with his bitework. his schutzhund routine was always ina 70:30 ration of prey to defence drive but when in a real situation such as the building searches or what ever, he adjusted it to about a 50:50 mix and would not hold back at all when biting live. Granted I had less than 10 live bites with him, but he never even looked like letting me down. he just knew when it was a 'game' and when it was real.


----------



## Ben Colbert

Don,

Why would you even have an opinion about something you know nothing about and have no desire to learn or interest in? Maybe you should stick to what you know.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Ben Colbert said:


> Don,
> 
> Why would you even have an opinion about something you know nothing about and have no desire to learn or interest in? Maybe you should stick to what you know.



+1.

I want to see your dogs do well, but that won't happen when you can't make them look good and try and make what you don't like look bad.

If you want to sell something, you don't make everyone else look worse, you make your product strong, good and reliable. I dabble in competition, but that has nothing to do with training a pet dog in obedience. Two entirely different things, and most pet owners don't want or need it. What most of them need is a good recall and loose heeling. An off command to stop jumping and a place command in the house, and nothing more. This gets most of them through the day.

You really shouldn't talk when you have no fact or experience to base your argument. You also show what you probably aren't able to train with methods you currently have in your arsenal.


----------



## Dave Colborn

To answer your original post, don. 

Competition has also given an outlet to see what dogs can be trained to do, as a breed or by a specific trainer. A venue to spend some quality time training with friends and family. 

Have you been to a lot of competitions in OB and bitework?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Ariel Peldunas said:


> The phrase "good, solid dog" is subjective. A good, solid sport dog is probably not going to be the best good, solid police dog. And a good, solid police dog is most likely not the best good, solid house dog. I think you get my point. I probably don't need to go on and on about what (in my opinion) makes a dog better for a specific task, but I think the point is we (hopefully) choose dogs that are best for the end we wish to achieve.
> 
> Personally, I think I own a good, solid dog. My sport dog is actually quite a good house dog. Stealing food left readily accessible is about the worst of her offenses. She'll give me a nearly flawless attention heel when I ask for it, but I can also take her out for a walk or jog and she'll run right along with me without giving me attention. I can take her into the woods and just let her run ahead of me and trust her not to roam too far (save the appearance of a brave or stupid deer). She probably would have actually made a pretty good police dog as well, but most of our training efforts are focused on sport because that's what's most accessible to me as a civilian. I once taught her an article search in, oh, about 5 minutes because I lost my keys in a field of knee high grass at night (I have witnesses if you don't believe me). She does party tricks. I can pet her when I feel like it, but she leaves me alone most of the time because I'm not really the affectionate type. I could go on ...but really, there's not much that's not good about her. She's not perfect, but nothing is ever perfect to a perfectionist. But, she seems pretty good and solid to me.



Good to see you posting on here!!! I look forward to hearing what you have to say, that I haven't heard, only seen in your well trained dogs!!


----------



## Charles Guyer

What has competition done?

Given us the best possible gene pool to select purpose bred (to include hunting) dogs from.


----------



## leslie cassian

Everybody has dogs for different reasons. Some people just have dogs because they like them. Some people have dogs because they need the dog to do a job. I fall somewhere in the middle - I like my dogs, but I want to do something with them. There are no real world applications for my dogs - no sheep to herd, no game to chase (other than the odd bunny or squirrel), no bad guys to track or apprehend, no ducks to retrieve, no bodies to find - so I make up a job for them. 

Dock diving is completely useless and proves nothing about my dogs, other than that they can jump and swim, but it's fun as anything and my dogs like it. I get to go out, meet people and show off the awesomeness of my dogs. Then I get pretty ribbons and something to brag about. Why is that bad?

Same thing with obedience. I can tell people all I want about how great my dogs are, but until I have something concrete to back it up, like a title I earned, then I'm just blowing hot air. Yes, titles aren't the be all and end all of what makes a dog good, but it is something to strive for and a goal to meet. It's completely artificial and arbitrary, but so what? 

I'm looking for balance - for me and for my dogs. Enough competition to be fun, but not so much that it becomes all I focus on. Other people may be more driven and competitive and choose to pursue titles in whatever venue they choose... to each their own.


----------



## Brett Bowen

Don Turnipseed said:


> Same thing with bite sports. A good solid dog doesn't earn points. Everything has become about flash, not good dogs. What is the matter with this picture???? Flash doesn't make good dogs.


I'll make this analogy. In shooting (pistol, rifle, shotgun, whatever) there has been some crossover of techniques from the competition world to the practical world (police, military, etc) and vice versa. If you watch any of the magpul videos you will see that. 

I think in some of the sports (more some than others) crossover is happening. They are influencing each other. Sure there are differences, but both sides have made improvements to what they do or how they train that the other side has adopted into the way they do things. 

Further 'good dogs' is subjective. Everyone has a different picture of what they like to see in a 'good dog'.


----------



## Jim Engel

*Groundhog Day*

Internet discussion boards can be very useful. Sure, they may have
a lot of fan boys puffing up buying a few dogs into some sort of 
working dog persona, but this is true everywhere in life.

This is such an old discussion that I have a canned response:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/WorkingTrials.htm

I will say that I am becoming more and more disillusioned with Schutzhund / IPO.

Although an enthusiast and competitor for thirty years, current developments
to me are very depressing.

The primary problem is that IPO is under the control of the FCI, a primarily
show dog and companion dog organization. The rules of Schutzhund / IPO are
continually being watered down to the lowest common denominator, and the
show dog people, including all of the pet breed people, have the real authority
over the rules. The SV is now a show dog club, part of the problem rather than
the solution.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Charles Guyer said:


> What has competition done?
> 
> Given us the best possible gene pool to select purpose bred (to include hunting) dogs from.


Ha, this is just funny as hell to read. Charles do you relies this is just opinion and the complete opposite can easily be argued?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Competition has allowed for dogs with bad genetics and poor health that would have been culled in the past to be worth money and breed today. Almost anytime something is judged or governed solely on a few test, tasks or requirements things down hill. 
But on a good note it has made many people with low self-esteem feel good about winning a ribbon… The dog has no idea it won nor does it care… and I guess the person really didn’t win either. So the one that won doesn’t care and the one that cares didn’t really win. What a stupid game. JMO


----------



## Dave Colborn

Chris McDonald said:


> Competition has allowed for dogs with bad genetics and poor health that would have been culled in the past to be worth money and breed today. Almost anytime something is judged or governed solely on a few test, tasks or requirements things down hill.
> But on a good note it has made many people with low self-esteem feel good about winning a ribbon… The dog has no idea it won nor does it care… and I guess the person really didn’t win either. So the one that won doesn’t care and the one that cares didn’t really win. What a stupid game. JMO



What competition would this be??


----------



## Chris McDonald

All, I don’t understand what would make you think one would be different than the other?


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Chris McDonald said:


> Competition has allowed for dogs with bad genetics and poor health that would have been culled in the past to be worth money and breed today. Almost anytime something is judged or governed solely on a few test, tasks or requirements things down hill.
> But on a good note it has made many people with low self-esteem feel good about winning a ribbon… The dog has no idea it won nor does it care… and I guess the person really didn’t win either. So the one that won doesn’t care and the one that cares didn’t really win. What a stupid game. JMO


So what, do you propose, would be the best way to determine if a dog is "good" or not? And wouldn't it still depend on what purpose you'd want the dog to serve? Obviously, you're not a sport person. What's a better test/application for a dog, in your opinion?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Chris McDonald said:


> All, I don’t understand what would make you think one would be different than the other?


Let's talk about what YOU are talking about. Which competition? KNPV? IPO? PSA? A RING SPORT? USPCA?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Competitions in general as a whole, all you mentioned. Anytime there is a point structure it can be argued that end result is not as good as things could have been without a point structure. Not just for dogs but for everything. In some case it can be argued that point structures and competition can be counterproductive for what they were originally structured to do.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Dave, there is a thread called “Police ditching German Shepherd” my understanding is the GS was a spectacular dog. I wasn’t alive 50 or 100 years ago to witness them but it seems like many people will agree that the GS really went downhill in temperament and health over the years as a whole. Just wondering if you think they did go downhill over the years and why? Just because of pet people and the AKC or could of competition have played a part? Could it be that dogs that need to be spun up for a ball to work that are breed to other dogs that need to spun up by a ball to work could produce dogs that don’t really work? 
To me a dog should work for its owner and not a ball. Maybe you guys broke the GS? Just a thought , what you think?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Chris McDonald said:


> Competitions in general as a whole, all you mentioned. Anytime there is a point structure it can be argued that end result is not as good as things could have been without a point structure. Not just for dogs but for everything. In some case it can be argued that point structures and competition can be counterproductive for what they were originally structured to do.


I understand and agree with some of your point. Everything, even if it isn't on a point structure, is as skewed as who it will benefit can make it. If they have no integrity. 

That being said. One man or woman can find breeding stock and breed them. They could make the best dogs in the world from their own opinion and research without competition. 

That one man or woman can also take steps towards ruining a breed without going to one competition and sell their dogs at flea markets after they breed shitters.

I think you stick with the organizations that are closest to your goals and values. IE for working dogs a sport that judges dogs in a way you can use in your breeding program. Find judges that adhere to the rules you like, and don't support the organization if they don't meet your standards. Then have integrity and be honest with yourself about what you are trying to accomplish. The truth is, it is the two dogs being put together that produce, not us humans.

In regards to the OP, I think don is upset with dogs that can do an attention heel. I think that was the point of his post. He uses koehler and can't teach an attention heel with that method, yet. Also, he has little to no experience showing dogs in bite sports or police work and doesn't realize the value of having a strong dogs eyes as a clear sign you have the rest of his mind and body with you.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Dave Colborn said:


> In regards to the OP, I think don is upset with dogs that can do an attention heel. I think that was the point of his post. He uses koehler and can't teach an attention heel with that method, yet. Also, he has little to no experience showing dogs in bite sports or police work and doesn't realize the value of having a strong dogs eyes as a clear sign you have the rest of his mind and body with you.


Ha, I don’t lose sleep over it and I learned to never start because I wont win but I see no point to the attention heeling except that it must make the handler feel like at least someone or something cares about him/ her. Maybe Don and I just don’t think we need anyone/ thing to care. Or maybe just not show it in that way ha.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> Competition has allowed for dogs with bad genetics and poor health that would have been culled in the past to be worth money and breed today. Almost anytime something is judged or governed solely on a few test, tasks or requirements things down hill.
> But on a good note it has made many people with low self-esteem feel good about winning a ribbon… The dog has no idea it won nor does it care… and I guess the person really didn’t win either. So the one that won doesn’t care and the one that cares didn’t really win. What a stupid game. JMO


Chris, do you even currently train your dogs to do anything? I don't even mean competing, I mean training for anything? I can't remember what you do.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

I think all the sports organizations (Schutzhund., Ring etc.)
should stop using numerical scores. Everyone would just show their dogs and everyone who participates gets a certificate.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Chris McDonald said:


> Dave, there is a thread called “Police ditching German Shepherd” my understanding is the GS was a spectacular dog. I wasn’t alive 50 or 100 years ago to witness them but it seems like many people will agree that the GS really went downhill in temperament and health over the years as a whole. Just wondering if you think they did go downhill over the years and why? Just because of pet people and the AKC or could of competition have played a part? Could it be that dogs that need to be spun up for a ball to work that are breed to other dogs that need to spun up by a ball to work could produce dogs that don’t really work?
> To me a dog should work for its owner and not a ball. Maybe you guys broke the GS? Just a thought , what you think?


I think very little of news reporting agencies, and I think that article is bullshit in a variety of ways to make the malinois appear better in respect to the GSD. How about the owner of the paper has a kennel in holland that produces malinois. Might skew the writing of that article a bit. YOUR UNDERSTANDING is the GSD was a spectacular dog. * Do you think there is one GSD on the planet you'd call spectacular now?* Do you think there used to be shitters as well as great dogs?

As far as 50-100 years ago, I think a lot of it is revisionist history. Do you think people only recently came up with the stories about all the great things their dogs will do in their minds? Telling stories has been around since the beginning of man. Why would I believe a story passed down from 100 years ago without scrutiny any more than I would do it today? History is written by the victor, and it isn't always clear who wins from the outside.

Absolutely breeds changed for pet people, they are part of the consumer base. If pet people can't handle a driven GSD, then one will be bred for them to own. Good job to the folks that are trying to breed it all together. Good luck.

I have seen strong shepherds and malinois, recently. Consumers drive what is bred, because breeders want to sell. Contracts also have to be filled which means a trainer or a business selling trained dogs is a salesman as well, possibly. But, if you don't buy crap, then it won't show up as often. I personally think the quality of dogs I have seen in shepherds has come higher to what I saw when I was in the military 95-03 as a handler. I also think since 03 the military has made improvement in selection and dog quality having seen a lot of dogs traveling around with Signature K9 or Tarheel Canine. Wrong or right, I go with what I know, can see touch and feel, and not so much opinion from people I don't know.

As far as spinning a dog up with a ball, I don't know what that means to you. Therefore I can't comment. As far as working for the owner, it is my experience when someone says their dog works for love of them, most times that isn't what is going on. The dog is trying to get a reward of some sort, or avoid correction. Owners, you included, just don't see it. I do think some dogs tend towards being more social to humans and easier to work with, but don't kid yourself, they are doing it for their own benefit, or it has become a conditioned response in response to a benefit the dog saw.

I appreciate that you are asking questions and have an opinion. I think I will stick with mine, part of which is : All the breeds are changing. There are strong working dogs out there, still. Individuals and groups affect the dogs both positively and negatively. Test the dog you want to work and don't accept less than you are willing to work with, this will help the breed overall as a whole. Be a good consumer.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Chris McDonald said:


> Ha, I don’t lose sleep over it and I learned to never start because I wont win but I see no point to the attention heeling except that it must make the handler feel like at least someone or something cares about him/ her. Maybe Don and I just don’t think we need anyone/ thing to care. Or maybe just not show it in that way ha.



Maybe there isn't anyone or anything that does care about you or Don. That isn't the discussion. It is about the utility (or not) of an attention heel. I don't have my house dog that lays on the couch attention heel either, that we can agree on. I see a lot of value in it for dogs that work. I don't know if either of you has a dog that works, so there is no point in discussing it.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Chris, do you even currently train your dogs to do anything? I don't even mean competing, I mean training for anything? I can't remember what you do.


Ha, You love to ask this of me once or twice a year. Ill give you the same answer. Currently I only have a Greyhound that I do a little man tracking/ scenting with and a DS that we are masters of nothing but try a bit of everything. Meaning narcotics, man tracking, bite work, agility (not the club kind) etc. I except to have one or two more dog by spring. I am planning on training them to work a blender and have them make drinks then start a dog drink mixing club 

How is the Dock Diving going? Did your dog win you any ribbons for your wall? what about those other 15 things you were trying to train your dogs for did you get accomplish anything other than lessening the dog world? Have you learned to hold a lead yet? Is that video still up for viewing?


----------



## Brian Anderson

Thomas Barriano said:


> I think all the sports organizations (Schutzhund., Ring etc.)
> should stop using numerical scores. Everyone would just show their dogs and everyone who participates gets a certificate.


Everyones a winner and there are no losers. AHHHH nirvana finally!!! ](*,)


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Chris, I guess I have to cause you never contribute anything to the forum otherwise. Dock diving is going great, thanks for asking. We qualified to go to nationals this year in extreme vertical, but it's in Vermont, so I don't think I can afford it this year. I'm showing my dog next weekend in both Schutzhund and PSA, so hopefully that will go OK despite our club not having a reliable decoy since early spring. He got his BH and AD in the spring. Since you're achieving so much, I'd love to hear how the one of the few vets in the country who does protection sport (and I think the only one who does PSA, but don't know for sure) is lessening the dog world. :lol:


----------



## Dave Colborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Chris, I guess I have to cause you never contribute anything to the forum otherwise. Dock diving is going great, thanks for asking. We qualified to go to nationals this year in extreme vertical, but it's in Vermont, so I don't think I can afford it this year. I'm showing my dog next weekend in both Schutzhund and PSA, so hopefully that will go OK despite our club not having a reliable decoy since early spring. He got his BH and AD in the spring. Since you're achieving so much, I'd love to hear how the one of the few vets in the country who does protection sport (and I think the only one who does PSA, but don't know for sure) is lessening the dog world. :lol:



Good luck at your upcoming trial!!! Hope all goes well for you, get some good pics.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Dave Colborn said:


> I think very little of news reporting agencies, and I think that article is bullshit in a variety of ways to make the malinois appear better in respect to the GSD. How about the owner of the paper has a kennel in holland that produces malinois. Might skew the writing of that article a bit. YOUR UNDERSTANDING is the GSD was a spectacular dog. *Do you think there is one GSD on the planet you'd call spectacular now?* Do you think there used to be shitters as well as great dogs?
> 
> As far as 50-100 years ago, I think a lot of it is revisionist history. Do you think people only recently came up with the stories about all the great things their dogs will do in their minds? Telling stories has been around since the beginning of man. Why would I believe a story passed down from 100 years ago without scrutiny any more than I would do it today? History is written by the victor, and it isn't always clear who wins from the outside.
> 
> Absolutely breeds changed for pet people, they are part of the consumer base. If pet people can't handle a driven GSD, then one will be bred for them to own. Good job to the folks that are trying to breed it all together. Good luck.
> 
> I have seen strong shepherds and malinois, recently. Consumers drive what is bred, because breeders want to sell. Contracts also have to be filled which means a trainer or a business selling trained dogs is a salesman as well, possibly. But, if you don't buy crap, then it won't show up as often. I personally think the quality of dogs I have seen in shepherds has come higher to what I saw when I was in the military 95-03 as a handler. I also think since 03 the military has made improvement in selection and dog quality having seen a lot of dogs traveling around with Signature K9 or Tarheel Canine. Wrong or right, I go with what I know, can see touch and feel, and not so much opinion from people I don't know.
> 
> As far as spinning a dog up with a ball, I don't know what that means to you. Therefore I can't comment. As far as working for the owner, it is my experience when someone says their dog works for love of them, most times that isn't what is going on. The dog is trying to get a reward of some sort, or avoid correction. Owners, you included, just don't see it. I do think some dogs tend towards being more social to humans and easier to work with, but don't kid yourself, they are doing it for their own benefit, or it has become a conditioned response in response to a benefit the dog saw.
> 
> I appreciate that you are asking questions and have an opinion. I think I will stick with mine, part of which is : All the breeds are changing. There are strong working dogs out there, still. Individuals and groups affect the dogs both positively and negatively. Test the dog you want to work and don't accept less than you are willing to work with, this will help the breed overall as a whole. Be a good consumer.


Ezy, This would be much more fun if I typed faster than 18-wpm or we were talking. Im sure there are a lot of great GS dogs and I wasn’t around “back in the day” but I do think the breed is not what it used to be. Id love to get a GS one of these days. I really don’t understand what you are getting at regarding the military and dogs traveling around with signature or tarheel 
You’re a former military handler and you don’t know what I mean by spinning the dog up with a ball… get out of here!
And ya some dogs just work. There have been many people on here with a lot more experience than me than have said there are dogs that will just work but they are few and far in-between. But then all I keep reading about is how an extreme ball driven dog has been breed to an extreme ball driven dog? I do think that a good dog will work for its owner if done right, im still working on that. 
I will agree that you are right, I don’t understand it all.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Thomas Barriano said:


> I think all the sports organizations (Schutzhund., Ring etc.)
> should stop using numerical scores. Everyone would just show their dogs and everyone who participates gets a certificate.



People should probably just mail their intent to show, and get the ribbon in the mail. What if there is competition for a parking spot? What if someone arrives ahead of time and you feel if they had an unfair advantage and therefore takes away your comfortable feeling of mediocrity!!! No one should ever show, and we should just talk about the dogs. Way less bad breeding and attention heeling that way!!!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Thanks Dave. We'll need a little luck with the cobbled together protection work we've gotten lately. Why is Ohio the hotbed of good PSA decoys now? Send some to Missouri please! :lol: I hope to have someone take a few pictures while we're out there.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Chris McDonald said:


> And ya some dogs just work. There have been many people on here with a lot more experience than me than have said there are dogs that will just work but they are few and far in-between. But then all I keep reading about is how an extreme ball driven dog has been breed to an extreme ball driven dog? I do think that a good dog will work for its owner if done right, im still working on that.


Don and you have one thing in common. A lot of your experience with working dogs by both of your own admission comes from the internet. Chris, the people with more experience may not have more experience. They may just pump themselves up and make you believe it. They SAID there are dogs that just work. Do you have proof of this?

Now we go back to your admitted lack of experience and lack of showcasing your dogs in any venue, and your argument of a good dog will work for his owner is weak. You have nothing to show to prove this, maybe you could shoot a video...


----------



## Dave Colborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Thanks Dave. We'll need a little luck with the cobbled together protection work we've gotten lately. Why is Ohio the hotbed of good PSA decoys now? Send some to Missouri please! :lol: I hope to have someone take a few pictures while we're out there.



I worked with a Mondio guy the other night. He worked my dog and made him look like a champ. I worked his dog and he reminded me why to wear a cup. Don't know what I was thinking there!!! I got a cheap lesson and some swelling to remind me to not do that dumb stuff again. 

There is a guy at our club who is up and coming. I think he'll be a talented decoy as well. A lot of the decoys are pretty far away, though. I know some of them will drive a ways or welcome you to their training.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Yeah, a cup is generally a good idea.  One of our guys is interested in learning (found him on the WDF too, very nice guy). We'd be glad to have an experienced decoy if we can borrow him for a weekend. I'll have to ask some of the Ohio guys next weekend. Are you going to regionals, btw?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Dave Colborn said:


> Don and you have one thing in common. A lot of your experience with working dogs by both of your own admission comes from the internet. Chris, the people with more experience may not have more experience. They may just pump themselves up and make you believe it. They SAID there are dogs that just work. Do you have proof of this?
> 
> Now we go back to your admitted lack of experience and lack of showcasing your dogs in any venue, and your argument of a good dog will work for his owner is weak. You have nothing to show to prove this, maybe you could shoot a video...


I have seen many, many dogs work all day for there owners and corrections are far and few in between for these people. Never said any of my experience came from the internet, you did. This was taken a few years ago, you can critique all you like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAoZ-4U19Gk&feature=related 
Links to your video? 
Im sure Maren will post hers


----------



## Dave Colborn

Chris McDonald said:


> I have seen many, many dogs work all day for there owners and corrections are far and few in between for these people. Never said any of my experience came from the internet, you did. This was taken a few years ago, you can critique all you like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAoZ-4U19Gk&feature=related
> Links to your video?
> Im sure Maren will post hers





> There have been many people on here with a lot more experience than me than have said there are dogs that will just work but they are few and far in-between. But then all I keep reading about is how an extreme ball driven dog has been breed to an extreme ball driven dog? I do think that a good dog will work for its owner if done right, im still working on that.


Chris. You listed at least some of your experience and belief system coming from this forum, on the internet. You also mention that you keep reading, I assumed you meant the internet. My apologies if you are reading other working dog publications in your home about an extreme ball driven dog bred to an extreme ball driven dog, suggesting that that bit of reading also came from the internet.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Dave Colborn said:


> Chris. You listed at least some of your experience and belief system coming from this forum, on the internet. You also mention that you keep reading, I assumed you meant the internet. My apologies if you are reading other working dog publications in your home about an extreme ball driven dog bred to an extreme ball driven dog, suggesting that that bit of reading also came from the internet.


You got me Dude… I don’t really consider what I read on here as my dog “experience” its more like reading the Enquirer. But as for what you are speaking of you got me, it is what I typed.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Chris McDonald said:


> You got me Dude… I don’t really consider what I read on here as my dog “experience” its more like reading the Enquirer. But as for what you are speaking of you got me, it is what I typed.


do you consider your dutchie being of breeding quality? Does the agility video make him a good dog (Neat stuff by the way) or the bitework? Would you breed him, if he is still around?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

*Re: Groundhog Day*



Jim Engel said:


> Internet discussion boards can be very useful. Sure, they may have
> a lot of fan boys puffing up buying a few dogs into some sort of
> working dog persona, but this is true everywhere in life.
> 
> This is such an old discussion that I have a canned response:
> 
> http://www.angelplace.net/dog/WorkingTrials.htm
> 
> I will say that I am becoming more and more disillusioned with Schutzhund / IPO.
> 
> Although an enthusiast and competitor for thirty years, current developments
> to me are very depressing.
> 
> The primary problem is that IPO is under the control of the FCI, a primarily
> show dog and companion dog organization. The rules of Schutzhund / IPO are
> continually being watered down to the lowest common denominator, and the
> show dog people, including all of the pet breed people, have the real authority
> over the rules. The SV is now a show dog club, part of the problem rather than
> the solution.


Thank you for the input Jim. I am glad you said it and not me because my experience would have to be questioned. They are making it easier aren't they.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Dave Colborn said:


> do you consider your dutchie being of breeding quality? Does the agility video make him a good dog (Neat stuff by the way) or the bitework? Would you breed him, if he is still around?


Short answer no I would not breed him, I think there are better dogs to breed. I don’t think the agility makes him a good dog but I do think he is a overall good dog for what I needed. 
It’s all fun stuff, learned a real lot since the video was made, still learning! One of these days im gona post a dog that has barley ever been corrected and never seen a ball or a treat but works its ass of. It can and is being done, I didn’t read about it I see it.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Dave Colborn said:


> People should probably just mail their intent to show, and get the ribbon in the mail. What if there is competition for a parking spot? What if someone arrives ahead of time and you feel if they had an unfair advantage and therefore takes away your comfortable feeling of mediocrity!!! No one should ever show, and we should just talk about the dogs. Way less bad breeding and attention heeling that way!!!


Hey Dave,

"Intent to show" is too easy to say and not do anything. How about video competitions? You edit your best training sessions together and get scored on these? No complaints about parking spaces or someone arriving early and getting more practice time on the field? ;-)


----------



## Joby Becker

Chris McDonald said:


> Short answer no I would not breed him, I think there are better dogs to breed. I don’t think the agility makes him a good dog but I do think he is a overall good dog for what I needed.
> It’s all fun stuff, learned a real lot since the video was made, still learning! *One of these days im gona post a dog that has barley ever been corrected and never seen a bal*l or a treat but works its ass of. It can and is being done, I didn’t read about it I see it.



never seen any type of toy or object to possess? not working for a bite on a sleeve or suit?

or just never seen a ball? 

not doubting anything just looking for clarification...


----------



## Dave Colborn

Chris McDonald said:


> Short answer no I would not breed him, I think there are better dogs to breed. I don’t think the agility makes him a good dog but I do think he is a overall good dog for what I needed.
> It’s all fun stuff, learned a real lot since the video was made, still learning! One of these days im gona post a dog that has barley ever been corrected and never seen a ball or a treat but works its ass of. It can and is being done, I didn’t read about it I see it.



I look forward to learning something from your future videos. Thanks for posting the one of the agility. Neat stuff


----------



## Dave Colborn

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> "Intent to show" is too easy to say and not do anything. How about video competitions? You edit your best training sessions together and get scored on these? No complaints about parking spaces or someone arriving early and getting more practice time on the field? ;-)



You may have a sport. A sport of backyard champions with video editing skills.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> Short answer no I would not breed him, I think there are better dogs to breed. I don’t think the agility makes him a good dog but I do think he is a overall good dog for what I needed.
> It’s all fun stuff, learned a real lot since the video was made, still learning! One of these days im gona post a dog that has barley ever been corrected and never seen a ball or a treat but works its ass of. It can and is being done, I didn’t read about it I see it.


So why'd you knock dock diving or say I am lessening the dog? It's for fun, sure, but it's a different form of testing of the athletic ability of the dog, just like having them climb on playground equipment and ladders like yours was. My dog's current top competition vertical height is 6'8", which means if you give him 13.5 foot running start (his ideal starting spot) and had him jump, he could nail Lebron James in the face from a take off spot 8 feet away.  

Glad you posted some video at least. So many internet trainers won't post video or "can't," despite the fact that just about any cheapie $100 digital camera has a video function on it. I don't mind posting training videos even if they're not perfect and wish more people would. Too many people see a perfect finished product on Youtube and don't understand how long it takes to get to that point.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Dave Colborn said:


> You may have a sport. A sport of backyard champions with video editing skills.



Dave

Dude, I thought you were smart enough to know when your leg was being pulled? ;-)


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave said,


> In regards to the OP, I think don is upset with dogs that can do an attention heel. I think that was the point of his post. He uses koehler and can't teach an attention heel with that method, yet. Also, he has little to no experience showing dogs in bite sports or police work and doesn't realize the value of having a strong dogs eyes as a clear sign you have the rest of his mind and body with you.


Sorry Dave, it is a useless heel and I wouldn't teach it. I don't know where you get this bit about me teaching Koehler. I used it for a few weeks with Jack and a couple of pups which I sold. Haven't had a leash on a dog since. I have tried several methods and this one was the soundest....but I don't train with any.....because I don't train. 

You were right about one thing Dave. Everything revolves around money. Including training. You try to make an attention heel sound like the cats meow. LOL You like people to think it is tough, but, you use it because it is easier than teaching a rigid heel. You can collect money for training more dogs using it even if it is useless outside of the ring. 

Many of you, starting with Christpher seem to think I shouldn't bring these things up. I thought it was a simple question. Damned, I didn't know some of you found heeling so close to rocket science. None of this stuff is. LOL Like I just fell off a truck and just don't understand what a heel is. Simple shit is what it is.

As far as your statements that I am putting other dogs down for doing the heel. Never did that. Some of you are overly sensative. When you sit in your throne and say dogs won't bite unless we trainers get paid to train them. Well, that isn't how you put it, but, it is what you really mean. I think that is putting everyone down that doesn't pay a trainer. You continually judge dogs you have never seen nor understand......what is good for the goose is good for the gander Dave. Like I said, I didn't just fall off a truck. I was teaching dogs to heel in the fifties when there were no leash laws. I forgot, you don't remember those days when little kids taught their dogs to bite, heel and everything else. That was before trainers figured out how to make a living at it blowing smoke. 

Personally, I am really looking forward to you meeting the boys that won't bite. :grin: Something else about these dogs. Once we do this, you won't be able to go outside without me because they won't forget you. They will remember you until they die. That is just how they are.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Bob nailed this one right on the head.
> 
> Its all about how you raise and train the dog. *The intent heel is the dogs way of asking for a reward* and is a seperate behaviour all together from an informal walk in the park. Most dogs know when to switch on and when to switch off, well at least a good trainer will usually do that with every dog. Its all about drive and flash, when the handler wants it.
> 
> I dont know about others experiences but my personal dog gave me good solid attentive heeling and then could just as easily be calm and relaxed walking next to me on a loose lead. The same thing with his bitework. his schutzhund routine was always ina 70:30 ration of prey to defence drive but when in a real situation such as the building searches or what ever, he adjusted it to about a 50:50 mix and would not hold back at all when biting live. Granted I had less than 10 live bites with him, but he never even looked like letting me down. he just knew when it was a 'game' and when it was real.


Thank you Jehane, Bob and a few others that just answere the question asked without all the fan fare. I thought it was just a relatively easy question. LOL


----------



## James Downey

Don,

I am with ya, Dog training is not rocket science. But also, It's not curing cancer either. So who gives a shit what competetion has accomplished. If dog training competetions ruined everyworking breed ever made...I am sure the earth would keep turning. What I am saying...is people get really passionate about which sport is better, or bite sports are ruining working dogs....bla, bla, bla.

I do not train and compete with the idea in mind that I am going to single handley improve working dogs. Nor do I suspect I am going to ruin them either. Competetion has been effective at giving me, an average Joe a very, very positive outlet ( I am not out robbing banks, cheating on my wife, or drinking too much). I also enjoy sharing my life with dogs. Competetion has given me that. The sport I choose, It was because it had the most resources and I believe that it's the most complex for a handler to train. 

Nothing more, nothing less. I am not expecting IPO, ring..or anyother venue to be anything more than a place to show q dog and his training. I think pointing out that competetive dog training has not provided anything more than this, in the tone that somehow it's obligated to, is well, a bit unfair.


----------



## Dave Colborn

James Downey said:


> Don,
> 
> I am with ya, Dog training is not rocket science. But also, It's not curing cancer either. So who gives a shit what competetion has accomplished. If dog training competetions ruined everyworking breed ever made...I am sure the earth would keep turning. What I am saying...is people get really passionate about which sport is better, or bite sports are ruining working dogs....bla, bla, bla.
> 
> I do not train and compete with the idea in mind that I am going to single handley improve working dogs. Nor do I suspect I am going to ruin them either. Competetion has been effective at giving me, an average Joe a very, very positive outlet ( I am not out robbing banks, cheating on my wife, or drinking too much). I also enjoy sharing my life with dogs. Competetion has given me that. The sport I choose, It was because it had the most resources and I believe that it's the most complex for a handler to train.
> 
> Nothing more, nothing less. I am not expecting IPO, ring..or anyother venue to be anything more than a place to show q dog and his training. I think pointing out that competetive dog training has not provided anything more than this, in the tone that somehow it's obligated to, is well, a bit unfair.



Well said.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Joby Becker said:


> never seen any type of toy or object to possess? not working for a bite on a sleeve or suit?
> 
> or just never seen a ball?
> 
> not doubting anything just looking for clarification...


 
Right no toys to bribe with. But Im sure there will be bites on suits


----------



## Dave Colborn

Thomas Barriano said:


> Dave
> 
> Dude, I thought you were smart enough to know when your leg was being pulled? ;-)


Maybe it's a good idea??


----------



## Ben Colbert

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thank you Jehane, Bob and a few others that just answere the question asked without all the fan fare. I thought it was just a relatively easy question. LOL


You weren't asking a question. You were being a douche and trying to pick a fight. Are you bored?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> "Intent to show" is too easy to say and not do anything. How about video competitions? You edit your best training sessions together and get scored on these? No complaints about parking spaces or someone arriving early and getting more practice time on the field? ;-)


Ha Thomas whatever makes you feel better about yourself, I think you need all the help you can get in that area


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> As far as your statements that I am putting other dogs down for doing the heel. Never did that.





Don Turnipseed said:


> Who wants to walk with a dog pressed up against your leg staring up at you for 5 miles.


Do you even know what you say??


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sorry Dave, it is a useless heel and I wouldn't teach it. I don't know where you get this bit about me teaching Koehler..





Don Turnipseed said:


> You have to realize Maggie. Koehler is just the flat out most useful tool in my tool box...but when I am trick training I will reach into that tool box and pull out the treats because I can teach tricks faster with treats. All methods serve a purpose.


Wow. Do you EVER read what you write??


----------



## Joby Becker

Chris McDonald said:


> Right no toys to bribe with. But Im sure there will be bites on suits


ok...no tugs or sleeves or suits for bribes or rewards either?

not even during control work in the bite work, or searching or tracking?

Bribes are one thing, rewards are another...in my opinion...dogs in competitions do not work for bribes, there is no food or toys allowed in most things while competing

Do you think a dog does bitework for its handler? or for itself? most of the time?

I kinda get where you went with this thread, just not there myself yet  herding, hunting....I can get there quickly, other work, not there yet...

....I assume you mean the dog will work its ass off for only verbal or physical praise, without ever being rewarded with a toy or a ball or food?(working for handler), with minimal corrections used...

When you say "work its ass off without a treat or a ball or a toy" what do you mean, what kind of work? OB?, Agility?, Bitework?, scentwork? and this will be throughout the entire training process?

is there really a difference between allowing a dog to bite some equipment? and releasing it for a ball? (assuming dog will do both)


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> Wow. Do you EVER read what you write??


You don't recognize pure sarchasm??


----------



## Don Turnipseed

All you that think I shouldn't bring things up I know nothing about. This is called the attentive sit. Yes, Dave, I train this because it makes money and impresses those that actually did just fall off a truck. Question for Dave, wouod it be more profitable training whole litters for the attention sit or is there more money doing it individually? Yes, I am holding the treats and it takes about 20 minutes to do a whole litter. I can tell them how much the bar is raised with a sit like this, eh. You are right though Dave. The dog laying in the background is Jack, Koehler trained and you may notice he isn't falling for this BS. Oh, I wasn't trying to sell Jack so it makes no difference if he does it or not. What is funny, long ago when I posted the pictures of the pups all sitting at attention, everybody thought is was cool. One person said it was no big thing because she knew a trainer that had pups that could do that. ....and I thought everyone would know how I did it as soon as they saw the picture. TREATS!!! Even pups respond quickly to TREATS. I posted this for Chis Mc. Figured he would enjoy it more than most today.


----------



## Tracey Hughes

Most competition dogs have 2 sets of commands..a formal/trial command and a at home/free command. 

In Schutzhund, the entire point of the sport from the beginning, was for it to be un-natural and with the less motivational training methods used, the weaker dogs were washed out as they couldn’t handle the pressure put on them in all 3 phases.

As training has gotten more motivational(and society has gotten softer overall), there has been a swing towards titling dogs that would have in the past wouldn’t have made it far in training, and in many cases it is the softer types of dogs that can be easier to title and do well with, so those are the dogs people want to compete with in a lot of cases, and those are the types of dogs that are being used in breedings, as most breeders will breed what sells best and what the market demands. 

A title doesn’t mean a dog is good or bad, it just shows that the trainer put the time into the dog..the type of training the dog went through is more important to me then the titles. Have seen way too many mediocre dogs titled to be impressed on the titles alone.

For me a dog that has never been through pressure in its training is not of interest for me as a breeding dog. Way too many dogs have great OB and tracking and then I see them in bite work and I am disappointed. No power or active aggression in the guards..dogs are just out there playing a game of tug, barking for their toy. That is the problem with competition as I see it! Winning (and getting those stud fees!!) has become more important then the dog and its character.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> All you that think I shouldn't bring things up I know nothing about. This is called the attentive sit. Yes, Dave, I train this because it makes money and impresses those that actually did just fall off a truck. Question for Dave, wouod it be more profitable training whole litters for the attention sit or is there more money doing it individually? Yes, I am holding the treats and it takes about 20 minutes to do a whole litter. I can tell them how much the bar is raised with a sit like this, eh. You are right though Dave. The dog laying in the background is Jack, Koehler trained and you may notice he isn't falling for this BS. Oh, I wasn't trying to sell Jack so it makes no difference if he does it or not. What is funny, long ago when I posted the pictures of the pups all sitting at attention, everybody thought is was cool. One person said it was no big thing because she knew a trainer that had pups that could do that. ....and I thought everyone would know how I did it as soon as they saw the picture. TREATS!!! Even pups respond quickly to TREATS. I posted this for Chis Mc. Figured he would enjoy it more than most today.


Thanks for letting me know ahead of time that was sarcasm. If you wouldn't have typed that in the last post, I would have thought you believed this....LOL. You almost got me on that one, Don!!!

By the way,what I wrote was sarcasm, because I am sure you believe what you just said. 

Don, answer one question so I can be sure you comprehend what I am writing. What four things do I think most pet owners need in their dog in regards to obedience?


----------



## Ben Colbert

Oh awesome! Is this the thread where Don shows us pictures of his dogs sitting for the camera? 

And then he tries to tell all of us that training is so easy? 

You're a douche.


----------



## maggie fraser

Ben Colbert said:


> Oh awesome! Is this the thread where Don shows us pictures of his dogs sitting for the camera?
> 
> And then he tries to tell all of us that training is so easy?


In a word, No. It is a for sale sign :wink:.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Oh man your killing me. We are going of track but I don’t think Don will mind to much  


Joby Becker said:


> ok...no tugs or sleeves or suits for bribes or rewards either?
> 
> not even during control work in the bite work, or searching or tracking?
> 
> Bribes are one thing, rewards are another...in my opinion...dogs in competitions do not work for bribes, there is no food or toys allowed in most things while competing
> 
> Do you think a dog does bitework for its handler? or for itself? most of the time?
> I do think dogs like to bite but will show control and not bite when asked and out for their owners
> I kinda get where you went with this thread, just not there myself yet  herding, hunting....I can get there quickly, other work, not there yet...
> Im not fully there yet but it’s the method I am learning
> ....I assume you mean the dog will work its ass off for only verbal or physical praise, without ever being rewarded with a toy or a ball or food?(working for handler), with minimal corrections used...
> Right , or not even for verbal praise just to see me node my head
> When you say "work its ass off without a treat or a ball or a toy" what do you mean, what kind of work? OB?, Agility?, Bitework?, scentwork? and this will be throughout the entire training process?
> All you mentioned and yes throughout the entire training process
> is there really a difference between allowing a dog to bite some equipment? and releasing it for a ball? (assuming dog will do both)


 Sorry don’t know what you mean, im a bit slow


----------



## Joby Becker

Chris McDonald said:


> Oh man your killing me. We are going of track but I don’t think Don will mind to much
> 
> Sorry don’t know what you mean, im a bit slow


LOL...

I am not getting the point about ball crazy dogs, and training dogs without any rewards or bribes...that a dog works its ass off for the handler...I think I got your meaning though...

I do not see a way to train a dog in most things without a reward, or a bribe. 

in most cases a sleeve or a suit is even a more powerful "toy" than a toy, used to reward, or bribe a dog...
was just trying to converse some....I was wondering what type of work the dog that is not trained with bribes or rewards will be doing?


----------



## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> Training and dogs? Heeling has a specific purpose. Take your dog out for a walk, on or off leash, and be able to enjoy the walk. Who wants to walk with a dog pressed up against your leg staring up at you for 5 miles. No one I know. It is insane but that is peoples idea of a good heel today. It is good for nothing outside of a ring but people have lost track of it's original purpose
> 
> Same thing with bite sports. A good solid dog doesn't earn points. Everything has become about flash, not good dogs. What is the matter with this picture???? Flash doesn't make good dogs.


Hi Don, I'm sorry I haven't been able to read all the posts in this thread, but am going to give you my thoughts on this anyway (only with regards to schutzhund) \\/

It's not really about the way the dog is heeling, it's about the dog being able to maintain this, day in day out, over and over, rain or shine, 100F + or in the snow. This is part of how you demonstrate a dogs resilience and drive, it's ability to handle pressure and discipline. I guess the actual few minutes of a competition doesn't display this, but for those of us who train this, we know what kind of work it takes to get that picture consistently, one that results in an SG or V performance in national or international level competition, almost no matter what. Keep in mind, schutzhund is a very competitive sport, and it's not easy to earn an SG score in Obedience at the upper levels. 

As far as the flash in grip work. Can you be more specific? I'm not sure what aspect you are describing as flashy, what would you think is flashy and what would you think would be not flashy but solid work?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Tracey Hughes said:


> Most competition dogs have 2 sets of commands..a formal/trial command and a at home/free command.
> 
> In Schutzhund, the entire point of the sport from the beginning, was for it to be un-natural and with the less motivational training methods used, the weaker dogs were washed out as they couldn’t handle the pressure put on them in all 3 phases.
> 
> As training has gotten more motivational(and society has gotten softer overall), there has been a swing towards titling dogs that would have in the past wouldn’t have made it far in training, and in many cases it is the softer types of dogs that can be easier to title and do well with, so those are the dogs people want to compete with in a lot of cases, and those are the types of dogs that are being used in breedings, as most breeders will breed what sells best and what the market demands.
> 
> A title doesn’t mean a dog is good or bad, it just shows that the trainer put the time into the dog..the type of training the dog went through is more important to me then the titles. Have seen way too many mediocre dogs titled to be impressed on the titles alone.
> 
> For me a dog that has never been through pressure in its training is not of interest for me as a breeding dog. Way too many dogs have great OB and tracking and then I see them in bite work and I am disappointed. No power or active aggression in the guards..dogs are just out there playing a game of tug, barking for their toy. That is the problem with competition as I see it! Winning (and getting those stud fees!!) has become more important then the dog and its character.


Good post Tracey. It is good to see some rational perspective for a change. You bring up some valid points.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Ben Colbert said:


> Oh awesome! Is this the thread where Don shows us pictures of his dogs sitting for the camera?
> 
> And then he tries to tell all of us that training is so easy?
> 
> You're a douche.


Ben, Ben, Ben. I ignore you because, well, because I don't want to make you feel stupid. You just do a real fine job of that all by yourself. :wink:


----------



## Chris McDonald

Ben Colbert said:


> Oh awesome! Is this the thread where Don shows us pictures of his dogs sitting for the camera?
> 
> And then he tries to tell all of us that training is so easy?
> 
> You're a douche.


Ha, jealousy is gona eat you alive


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Chris McDonald said:


> Short answer no I would not breed him, I think there are better dogs to breed. I don’t think the agility makes him a good dog but I do think he is a overall good dog for what I needed.
> It’s all fun stuff, learned a real lot since the video was made, still learning! One of these days im gona post a dog that has barley ever been corrected and never seen a ball or a treat but works its ass of. It can and is being done, I didn’t read about it I see it.


I'm not really sure why it's so important to have a dog that works for solely for handler praise. Is it an ego thing (i.e. I'm more important to the dog than anything else in the world)? Is it a self imposed challenge to see how difficult you can make training? I imagine you'll probably go through a lot of dogs before you achieve this ...or accept much less than I would consider acceptable. 

Yes, your dog is doing some very impressive things in the video. Could it be possible that your dog just enjoys the work just as a person or a child enjoys challenging physical activity? And if you could get better/faster/more reliable behavior out of your dog/any dog by offering rewards (not all the time - we can use a variable reward system so you don't have to have a ball, food, tug, decoy readily available), why would you be opposed to doing that? And if by providing an undesirable consequence for disobedience, you could ensure your dog didn't decide something was more valuable (chasing a cat, let's say) at the moment you needed him to do something (find your lost keys, perhaps), why would you be opposed to doing that?

I'm not so narcissistic to believe that any of my dogs love working for me more than they love working for themselves. They are opportunistic. They will do what benefits them the most. Sure, I can get them to do something they enjoy by guiding them and praising them. What I think would be interesting would be to see someone who could get their dog to do something they don't enjoy and don't want to do without using anything but praise ...EVER. Praise can never be paired with food or toys or whatever the dog might consider rewarding, so the dog will never associate and expect a primary reward after the praise. No form of anything that might be considered a correction may be used. The dog must not fear punishment or negative reinforcement. I'm not even sure if pushing the dog's butt into a sit or other means of physical manipulation should be allowed, but I guess that can be debated when someone actually thinks they can achieve this.

I need to be able to rely on my dogs and know they will perform correctly when asked. Because I have such expectations and can't just hope my dog will do what I want because I love her/him, I train them. I condition appropriate responses, reward correct behavior and correct disobedience. I don't rely on love and loyalty. I know my dogs love to work, but there are times when they would rather bite than not bite or search in one area when I need them to look somewhere else. If they trust that obedience to my command brings reward, it makes things much more efficient and less frustrating. Plus, I like my dogs to enjoy working with me and that doesn't always mean they have to feel like they are working for me. They can be independent ...a means to their own end. They just have to trust that obeying me and being attentive to my commands/body language will be beneficial. Of course, in scent work (tracking, detection, article search), I realize I must back off and allow more independence from the dogs because they must dictate how the search progresses based upon what they smell. Still, if they are distracted or clearly in the wrong area, I prefer to be able to redirect them to conserve time/energy. 

I have more to say in response to attention heeling and other posts, but I haven't yet figured out how to quote multiple posts.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> Ha Thomas whatever makes you feel better about yourself, I think you need all the help you can get in that area



Chris,

You really should avoid replying to posts (to other people especially). That you obviously don't comprehend. It makes you look foolish. I feel really good about myself, even more so when I think how great it is not to be YOU. ;-)


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> You really should avoid replying to posts (to other people especially). That you obviously don't comprehend. It makes you look foolish. I feel really good about myself, even more so when I think how great it is not to be YOU. ;-)


Again, whatever makes you feel better? I take you as a cranky old man but im ok with whatever you think you are


----------



## Charles Guyer

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'm not really sure why it's so important to have a dog that works for solely for handler praise. Is it an ego thing (i.e. I'm more important to the dog than anything else in the world)? Is it a self imposed challenge to see how difficult you can make training? I imagine you'll probably go through a lot of dogs before you achieve this ...or accept much less than I would consider acceptable.
> 
> Yes, your dog is doing some very impressive things in the video. Could it be possible that your dog just enjoys the work just as a person or a child enjoys challenging physical activity? And if you could get better/faster/more reliable behavior out of your dog/any dog by offering rewards (not all the time - we can use a variable reward system so you don't have to have a ball, food, tug, decoy readily available), why would you be opposed to doing that? And if by providing an undesirable consequence for disobedience, you could ensure your dog didn't decide something was more valuable (chasing a cat, let's say) at the moment you needed him to do something (find your lost keys, perhaps), why would you be opposed to doing that?
> 
> I'm not so narcissistic to believe that any of my dogs love working for me more than they love working for themselves. They are opportunistic. They will do what benefits them the most. Sure, I can get them to do something they enjoy by guiding them and praising them. What I think would be interesting would be to see someone who could get their dog to do something they don't enjoy and don't want to do without using anything but praise ...EVER. Praise can never be paired with food or toys or whatever the dog might consider rewarding, so the dog will never associate and expect a primary reward after the praise. No form of anything that might be considered a correction may be used. The dog must not fear punishment or negative reinforcement. I'm not even sure if pushing the dog's butt into a sit or other means of physical manipulation should be allowed, but I guess that can be debated when someone actually thinks they can achieve this.
> 
> I need to be able to rely on my dogs and know they will perform correctly when asked. Because I have such expectations and can't just hope my dog will do what I want because I love her/him, I train them. I condition appropriate responses, reward correct behavior and correct disobedience. I don't rely on love and loyalty. I know my dogs love to work, but there are times when they would rather bite than not bite or search in one area when I need them to look somewhere else. If they trust that obedience to my command brings reward, it makes things much more efficient and less frustrating. Plus, I like my dogs to enjoy working with me and that doesn't always mean they have to feel like they are working for me. They can be independent ...a means to their own end. They just have to trust that obeying me and being attentive to my commands/body language will be beneficial. Of course, in scent work (tracking, detection, article search), I realize I must back off and allow more independence from the dogs because they must dictate how the search progresses based upon what they smell. Still, if they are distracted or clearly in the wrong area, I prefer to be able to redirect them to conserve time/energy.
> 
> I have more to say in response to attention heeling and other posts, but I haven't yet figured out how to quote multiple posts.


Yeah! What she said.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'm not really sure why it's so important to have a dog that works for solely for handler praise. Is it an ego thing (i.e. I'm more important to the dog than anything else in the world)? Is it a self imposed challenge to see how difficult you can make training? I imagine you'll probably go through a lot of dogs before you achieve this ...or accept much less than I would consider acceptable.
> 
> Yes, your dog is doing some very impressive things in the video. Could it be possible that your dog just enjoys the work just as a person or a child enjoys challenging physical activity? And if you could get better/faster/more reliable behavior out of your dog/any dog by offering rewards (not all the time - we can use a variable reward system so you don't have to have a ball, food, tug, decoy readily available), why would you be opposed to doing that? And if by providing an undesirable consequence for disobedience, you could ensure your dog didn't decide something was more valuable (chasing a cat, let's say) at the moment you needed him to do something (find your lost keys, perhaps), why would you be opposed to doing that?
> 
> I'm not so narcissistic to believe that any of my dogs love working for me more than they love working for themselves. They are opportunistic. They will do what benefits them the most. Sure, I can get them to do something they enjoy by guiding them and praising them. What I think would be interesting would be to see someone who could get their dog to do something they don't enjoy and don't want to do without using anything but praise ...EVER. Praise can never be paired with food or toys or whatever the dog might consider rewarding, so the dog will never associate and expect a primary reward after the praise. No form of anything that might be considered a correction may be used. The dog must not fear punishment or negative reinforcement. I'm not even sure if pushing the dog's butt into a sit or other means of physical manipulation should be allowed, but I guess that can be debated when someone actually thinks they can achieve this.
> 
> I need to be able to rely on my dogs and know they will perform correctly when asked. Because I have such expectations and can't just hope my dog will do what I want because I love her/him, I train them. I condition appropriate responses, reward correct behavior and correct disobedience. I don't rely on love and loyalty. I know my dogs love to work, but there are times when they would rather bite than not bite or search in one area when I need them to look somewhere else. If they trust that obedience to my command brings reward, it makes things much more efficient and less frustrating. Plus, I like my dogs to enjoy working with me and that doesn't always mean they have to feel like they are working for me. They can be independent ...a means to their own end. They just have to trust that obeying me and being attentive to my commands/body language will be beneficial. Of course, in scent work (tracking, detection, article search), I realize I must back off and allow more independence from the dogs because they must dictate how the search progresses based upon what they smell. Still, if they are distracted or clearly in the wrong area, I prefer to be able to redirect them to conserve time/energy.
> 
> I have more to say in response to attention heeling and other posts, but I haven't yet figured out how to quote multiple posts.


Your right it’s an ego thing.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Damn, I didn't realize how much I missed a good Saturday night flame war. It's like old times. Thanks guys!!


----------



## Chris McDonald

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Damn, I didn't realize how much I missed a good Saturday night flame war. It's like old times. Thanks guys!!


Ha who let you in? And Ben is the only flame around here and maybe Thomas to. Im kinda leaning that way


----------



## susan tuck

Tracey Hughes said:


> Most competition dogs have 2 sets of commands..a formal/trial command and a at home/free command.
> 
> In Schutzhund, the entire point of the sport from the beginning, was for it to be un-natural and with the less motivational training methods used, the weaker dogs were washed out as they couldn’t handle the pressure put on them in all 3 phases.
> 
> As training has gotten more motivational(and society has gotten softer overall), there has been a swing towards titling dogs that would have in the past wouldn’t have made it far in training, and in many cases it is the softer types of dogs that can be easier to title and do well with, so those are the dogs people want to compete with in a lot of cases, and those are the types of dogs that are being used in breedings, as most breeders will breed what sells best and what the market demands.
> 
> A title doesn’t mean a dog is good or bad, it just shows that the trainer put the time into the dog..the type of training the dog went through is more important to me then the titles. Have seen way too many mediocre dogs titled to be impressed on the titles alone.
> 
> One thing that brings a little perspective: I remember back in the early 80s, through the 90s, people talked about how the dogs were going to hell & were nothing but prey monsters. Now you hear about how great the dogs in the 80s were, and how now they are all prey monsters. How does that song go? "The more things change the more they stay the same"
> 
> For me a dog that has never been through pressure in its training is not of interest for me as a breeding dog. Way too many dogs have great OB and tracking and then I see them in bite work and I am disappointed. No power or active aggression in the guards..dogs are just out there playing a game of tug, barking for their toy. That is the problem with competition as I see it! Winning (and getting those stud fees!!) has become more important then the dog and its character.


I agree with this almost 100%. I actually find it much easier to train a hard, resilient dog than a soft dog who pouts and melts, I can't stand that kind of dog, it requires coddling and far more patience than I have. Frankly I'd rather put a bullet in it's brain than bother training it, let alone breeding the shitter. I suppose if someone trains with all motivational methods, they can go further with a soft dog, but that's just not me. 

As far as the dogs that are being bred, eh, that's nothing new at all, I would say probably more than 75% of so called breeders breed to the flavor of the month, don't know what they're doing, talk a big game. You just have to know what to look for and who to know.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Damn, I didn't realize how much I missed a good Saturday night flame war. It's like old times. Thanks guys!!


So Lee, when you coming out. Maybe when Dave is here testing the dogs to see if they will bite him??? Need a camera man. :grin:


----------



## Don Turnipseed

susan tuck said:


> Hi Don, I'm sorry I haven't been able to read all the posts in this thread, but am going to give you my thoughts on this anyway (only with regards to schutzhund) \\/
> 
> It's not really about the way the dog is heeling, it's about the dog being able to maintain this, day in day out, over and over, rain or shine, 100F + or in the snow. This is part of how you demonstrate a dogs resilience and drive, it's ability to handle pressure and discipline. I guess the actual few minutes of a competition doesn't display this, but for those of us who train this, we know what kind of work it takes to get that picture consistently, one that results in an SG or V performance in national or international level competition, almost no matter what. Keep in mind, schutzhund is a very competitive sport, and it's not easy to earn an SG score in Obedience at the upper levels.
> 
> As far as the flash in grip work. Can you be more specific? I'm not sure what aspect you are describing as flashy, what would you think is flashy and what would you think would be not flashy but solid work?


Susan, I see what your saying. It isn't the how, it is showing what the dog has in him/her.

As far as the flashy bitework, I have read many times that a real serious dog that works in offense, will not earn points because they just aren't flashy. I am guessing that is because they intend to get the job done with little fanfare. So does a dog working in defense look flashier? Is it more the fear factor?


----------



## Charles Guyer

"What has competition done?

Given us the best possible gene pool to select purpose bred (to include hunting) dogs from."



Chris McDonald said:


> Ha, this is just funny as hell to read. Charles do you relies this is just opinion and the complete opposite can easily be argued?


I realize that this is an opinion based on my experiences. Please argue the opposite.

i.e. Please explain where you think you might find a pup that would better suited for the grouse woods than a coverdog champ, or a better **** hound pup than from a couple of grand nite champions, or a better police dog than from a SPORT litter, etc. Is a dogs ability to hold an attention heel a hindrance to his bitework? If a squirrel dog has 120 BPM on the tree is he worse at finding game? Is a high headed, tail cracking, classy, bird finding machine automatically the victim of a weak nose?


----------



## Bob Scott

susan tuck said:


> I agree with this almost 100%. I actually find it much easier to train a hard, resilient dog than a soft dog who pouts and melts, I can't stand that kind of dog, it requires coddling and far more patience than I have. Frankly I'd rather put a bullet in it's brain than bother training it, let alone breeding the shitter. I suppose if someone trains with all motivational methods, they can go further with a soft dog, but that's just not me.
> 
> As far as the dogs that are being bred, eh, that's nothing new at all, I would say probably more than 75% of so called breeders breed to the flavor of the month, don't know what they're doing, talk a big game. You just have to know what to look for and who to know.



To many years with terriers. A soft dog (have one now with my younger GSD) drives me absolutely nuts. He's not a soft dog with other people, just me. It's just not my strong suit to work with a soft dog.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Charles, not to interfere with your question to Chris, but, many of the gun dog competitions are breeding for big running dogs and can only be followed on horseback. I know a lot of bird hunters and have never known one haul a horse to hunt birds in the real world. The dogs are bred to hunt at 400/500 yards. Do you think that is useful as a bird dog?


----------



## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Charles, not to interfere with your question to Chris, but, many of the gun dog competitions are breeding for big running dogs and can only be followed on horseback. I know a lot of bird hunters and have never known one haul a horse to hunt birds in the real world. The dogs are bred to hunt at 400/500 yards. Do you think that is useful as a bird dog?



I agree that the big "plantation" hunters are a far cry from a functional meat dog.


----------



## Charles Guyer

Don Turnipseed said:


> Charles, not to interfere with your question to Chris, but, Many of the gun dog competitions are breeding for big running dogs and can only be followed on horseback. I kjnow a lot of bird hunters and have never known one haul a horse to hunt birds in the real world. The dogs are bred to hunt at 400/500 yards. Do you think that is useful as a bird dog?


I hunt setters and brittanys out horseback lines, on foot all season long. I don't hunt a dog that I don't trust to obey the whistle and all my dogs adjust their range to the cover. Are there jerks out there that run to the next county and hunt for themselves?...sure, but they aren't winning field trials either. I don't agree with the scoring in FDSB field trials and I do prefer the NSTRA style, but all those dogs come from the same stock.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Charles Guyer said:


> I hunt setters and brittanys out horseback lines, on foot all season long. I don't hunt a dog that I don't trust to obey the whistle and all my dogs adjust their range to the cover. Are there jerks out there that run to the next county and hunt for themselves?...sure, but they aren't winning field trials either. I don't agree with the scoring in FDSB field trials and I do prefer the NSTRA style, but all those dogs come from the same stock.


Ok, I can understand that. I don't compete unless challenged, but, even though all the dogs will hunt, how they hunt has a lot to do with it. I have had many that hunt for themselves and they are not here long. The ones that hunt for me are the keepers.


----------



## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> To many years with terriers. A soft dog (have one now with my younger GSD) drives me absolutely nuts. He's not a soft dog with other people, just me. It's just not my strong suit to work with a soft dog.


Me neither, and i consider this my limitation more than the dogs. i know very good trainers who can work and successfully train the whole spectrum - I'm not one of them. I prefer and need a dog who is very resiliant. My current dog has that lovely (not) combo of having way too much defense, not enough prey, coupled with a loose screw. So I train the dog I have but am in the market for another. I'm just grateful to have a dog and a great coach and a great bunch of friends to train with. 

I will also say that I have been hearing the same thing forever. When I first got involved in the sport in the early 80s everyone was concerned because the dogs weren't like the dogs of the 70s, in the 90s they said that about the 80s and now they say it about dogs from the 90s. Memories are tricky, I think for our own sanity they soften, we remember the good but not so much, the not so hot.

If you know where to look you can still find the kind of dog you like. Personally I like a prey monster who, if his defense is tapped into can handle the pressure. I don't believe it's hardly ever necessary to tap into a dogs defense, I firmly believe that even with very good dogs, you can fight them to the point where they will run, it's common sense, self preservation. I much prefer a dog who can work in prey and not feel pressed like dogs who only work in defense do. But that's a different discussion.


----------



## susan tuck

deleted didn't mean to quote myself! Sorry mods! I was trying to change my post to add that coupled with all those other adjectives, my dog is "soft to me, but not others" as Bob described his dog.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> Ha who let you in? And Ben is the only flame around here and maybe Thomas to (sic). Im (sic) kinda leaning that way


Chris,

In order to participate in a flame war you have to have a flicker of intelligence, which you lack. Try to remember the difference between your/you're and to/too and retard/retart and where
an apostrophe is needed. ;-)
One of the reasons I'm so cranky is having to deal with you LOL


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

wow coolest thread in ages guys - have to go read the details now. last post by Thomas kind of signals the end though.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Peter Cavallaro said:


> wow coolest thread in ages guys - have to go read the details now. last post by Thomas kind of signals the end though.


Nah! The involved parties can deal with this and more for a while longer. No run to the mod pussies involved yet. I'm fairly sure this will rumble for a few more posts before the vice grips clamp down. 

There is a chance of this getting back on track which was tongue in cheek antagonistic to begin with.\\/


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

this thread has made me miss JO less.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Peter Cavallaro said:


> this thread has made me miss JO less.


 I always knew others would step up to the plate to help fill the void.:grin:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

yeah but it took how many to do the job that JO would have done more swiftly and better - shows the quality of the man right there


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Peter Cavallaro said:


> yeah but it took how many to do the job that JO would have done more swiftly and better - shows the quality of the man right there


He had way more practice at making people miserable. Everyone just needs a bit more time to catch up!:-D


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Lee haven't chatted in awhile, how goes it, ended up gettin me a GSD from some mad old lines. 

check out my photo gallery, old pics, at about 20wo now, weighs in at around 30kg (60 odd pounds i think in yr money). pup is totally full of sh!t and bad manners too. 

whoever said the GSD breed is finished have been dealing with the wrong breeders. Ha F'ing Ha.

the mals his age at training follow my boy around like he's they're dad - everyone stopped trying to molest my pup now, they all ask if he's "OK" to pat first lol, and even then they not sure.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

I'm glad everything is cool. As long as he doesn't eat his own shit he has to be a great dog. That is my new measurement of a well balanced pup.:lol:


----------



## Bob Scott

Charles Guyer said:


> I hunt setters and brittanys out horseback lines, on foot all season long. I don't hunt a dog that I don't trust to obey the whistle and all my dogs adjust their range to the cover. Are there jerks out there that run to the next county and hunt for themselves?...sure, but they aren't winning field trials either. I don't agree with the scoring in FDSB field trials and I do prefer the NSTRA style, but all those dogs come from the same stock.



Charles, I'm not really familiar with the big running bird dogs other then what I've seen just a few times.
Is it just a matter of training? Are they the same lines as a good meat dog as you indicate? 
Seems like the English Pointer are the worst/best for that sort of trialing.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm glad everything is cool. As long as he doesn't eat his own shit he has to be a great dog. That is my new measurement of a well balanced pup.:lol:


 





all the stress i had about having multiple dogs was for nothin, how do people get so many problems to fix in the first place?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Susan, I see what your saying. It isn't the how, it is showing what the dog has in him/her.
> 
> As far as the flashy bitework, I have read many times that a real serious dog that works in offense, will not earn points because they just aren't flashy.


Where did you read this? Holy crap I think Jim Nash made the right call. I get dumber and dumber reading your posts, and I find myself unable to look away. You are a train wreck.

Maybe you'd sell more Airedales if you didn't type. Although the more time spent on the keyboard, the more time that breed improves.

Offense? who the **** says that?? Ben was right!!!!


----------



## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> Where did you read this? Holy crap I think Jim Nash made the right call. I get dumber and dumber reading your posts, and I find myself unable to look away. You are a train wreck.
> 
> Maybe you'd sell more Airedales if you didn't type. Although the more time spent on the keyboard, the more time that breed improves.
> 
> Offense? who the **** says that?? Ben was right, you are a Douche.



Disagree all you want but the name calling STOPS!


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Originally Posted by *Dave Colborn*  
_Although the more time spent on the keyboard, the more time that breed improves.

_

_now thats funny, i'm usin that in my next internet stoush with a breeder_


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> Where did you read this? Holy crap I think Jim Nash made the right call. I get dumber and dumber reading your posts, and I find myself unable to look away. You are a train wreck.
> 
> Maybe you'd sell more Airedales if you didn't type. Although the more time spent on the keyboard, the more time that breed improves.
> 
> Offense? who the **** says that?? Ben was right!!!!


Naw Dave, Your no dumber than you were when you started this...your just realizing it more. So you think all dogs just work in defense? LOL

Now Dave is down to Ben's level. Must have hit a sore spot about all this smoke some trainers blow to make a buck. LMAO

Maybe you didn't notice how well the thread was doing without you Dave. Seems some people can have a discussion without all the BS and smoke blowng. Defense is what you are in now. Have been through this whole thread son.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Don Turnipseed said:


> Naw Dave, Your no dumber than you were when you started this...your just realizing it more.


 
wow that is a good comeback - i can't see how it could be topped.

Dave you can't recover from that one bro.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Naw Dave, Your no dumber than you were when you started this...your just realizing it more. So you think all dogs just work in defense? LOL
> 
> Now Dave is down to Ben's level. Must have hit a sore spot about all this smoke some trainers blow to make a buck. LMAO
> 
> Maybe you didn't notice how well the thread was doing without you Dave. Seems some people can have a discussion without all the BS and smoke blowng. Defense is what you are in now. Have been through this whole thread son.





Yes, I am realizing how dumb I have been for actually thinking you will learn and grow, or bring good rebuttals to a discussion to make me change my opinion. Neither has happened and wont with you. 

All the threads do fine with or without me, Don. That I am sure of. 

You have laid down the offer to get someone out to your place to test your dogs and raise their worth. I took that offer. Not out of spite, but because I do believe some dogs will bite without training. I like seeing what dogs will do. Dog behavior stuff. Training stuff. I am coming to help you and your breed find out if what you believe is true. I gave my word, I'll still do that. 

I have never done Sch or IPO. Pick an IPO event at least a year down the road somewhere in between us, get one of your airedales ready and we'll meet there and both show. If you're confident they'll bite without training, think about what a year of training without smoke blowing will do for you. Put them in offense as much as you want. The truth of the matter is, if you are as dog savvy as you say, all the disagreed upon terms won't matter, it will show on the field.

I would pick a hunting event, but I don't claim to know anything about hunting dogs. You on the other hand need to learn a lesson about dogs that bite and what goes into the training. Don, come show us how easy it is. 

You talk about only competing when you get called out, you been called, Son. I want a microchip number of the dog you are picking to show within a few days so you don't cheat and bring in a ringer, I'll be using my boxer as he is all I have right now.

I'll be looking for the date of an event in your response. If you don't, that says it all about you, the guy who allegedly took a flight to Ohio to prove someone wrong with his dogs. Performed better than any other dogs in twenty years **** hunting...Etc. Show me your true colors.

Put up or shut up, Don.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones




----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Hey Dave - I want in on that friendly competition, too!

I am realizing exactly why it is I don't post on forums ...too many people with strong opinions on things they have no first hand experience doing. I don't talk about hunting dogs because I don't hunt with my dogs. I guess, legitimately, I could make some arguments based upon my retriever, but her main purpose of late has been as a bomb dog and not a bird dog. I need to start hunting over her so I can make substantiated claims about her ability as a functional working dog ...although, I think hunting for bombs is pretty functional. But I've seen what she's capable of and I know I could take her and run her in hunt tests and field trials and probably smoke them, but she'd be just as eager to spend the day on a boat picking up birds. That's what she's been bred to do and no amount of competition training is taking that out of her.

But back to what I know better ...useless sport dog stuff. The whole attention heel bit just gets under my skin. It's not to sell dogs or puppies or to showcase my skills as a trainer. I wouldn't put an attention heel on a police dog or a pet ...or a hunting dog for that matter. I train an attention heel because I have a better chance of keeping my dog's attention on me (hence the name) and thus keeping her from biting decoys and performing incorrectly. I don't care how correct my rigid heel is (I think that's what Don called it), if her eyes aren't on me, she's not going to perform as well as when her eyes are on me. She can't watch me and what's going on around her at the same time ...at least having her eyes on me limits most of that. And once again, when I don't want her to look at me, I don't tell her to. I can focus her attention elsewhere, as needed, or just allow her to be a dog and focus where she wants.

As for a dog who works in offense not being flashy ...I'll admit, I have a pretty balanced dog. She's not just a prey monster who only shows non-classical aggression. But when she's on the field, she's working in offense a good majority of the time. With the exception of a couple scenarios, she is not truly feeling threatened. She's intense, confident and still manages to look flashy ...not exactly sure how that's possible. Maybe it's the whole "balance" thing, I'm not sure. Right now, I'm back to being just a competition dog trainer so my experience and opinion probably doesn't hold much water.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Apparently, I ran out of time to edit my last post ...I decided I wanted to add more to what I had to say.

As for a dog who works in offense not being flashy ...I'll admit, I have a pretty balanced dog. She's not just a prey monster who only shows non-classical aggression. But when she's on the field, she's working in offense a good majority of the time. With the exception of a couple scenarios, she is not truly feeling threatened. She's intense, confident and still manages to look flashy ...not exactly sure how that's possible. Maybe it's the whole "balance" thing. Or maybe it's the fact that trainers with flashy dogs train their asses off and work really hard to look good and take home medals and trophies. I love how the people who delegitimize dog sports are ones who have never done it. Competition is really difficult. It separates the grain from the chaff for all the world to see. There's no hiding behind words, staged photos or cleverly edited videos. You go out and put all your training to the test in front of anyone who wants to watch (and probably quite a few who are hoping you fail). You hope all the training and hard work you've done holds and your dog performs as well as they can. I don't see why that's any less legitimate than using a dog for a strictly utilitarian purpose. It's the same concept ...hope the dog does what they have been bred or trained to do when it really counts. There's a reason why some of the best trainers are excellent sport trainers as well ...they are perfectionists (or near perfectionists) with extrememly high standards. They don't accept mediocrity whether in a good, solid working dog or a competition dog.

I should probably go back to bed. Damn hurricane.


----------



## Charles Guyer

Bob Scott said:


> Charles, I'm not really familiar with the big running bird dogs other then what I've seen just a few times.
> Is it just a matter of training? Are they the same lines as a good meat dog as you indicate?
> Seems like the English Pointer are the worst/best for that sort of trialing.


Some are huntin fools, some are all style and run. Most will make an exceptional meat dog if raised in a hunting home with someone that has a little dog sense. English Pointers are the perinnial champs, but most all bird hunting specialty breeds (setters, brits, wirehairs, shorthairs, etc)are from the field dog stud book. Range can be manipulated, but if a dog figures out he can scoot to the horizon with no consequence he'll take advantage of the situation. The places I hunt have tough terrain and a very thin bird population so I encourage my dogs to push out as long as I trust them to handle at a distance. I don't have any use for a boot licker.
There are people claiming to breed slow, close ranging dogs for foot hunters. I've not met anyone that wants one.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> Yes, I am realizing how dumb I have been for actually thinking you will learn and grow, or bring good rebuttals to a discussion to make me change my opinion. Neither has happened and wont with you.
> 
> All the threads do fine with or without me, Don. That I am sure of.
> 
> You have laid down the offer to get someone out to your place to test your dogs and raise their worth. I took that offer. Not out of spite, but because I do believe some dogs will bite without training. I like seeing what dogs will do. Dog behavior stuff. Training stuff. I am coming to help you and your breed find out if what you believe is true. I gave my word, I'll still do that.
> 
> I have never done Sch or IPO. Pick an IPO event at least a year down the road somewhere in between us, get one of your airedales ready and we'll meet there and both show. If you're confident they'll bite without training, think about what a year of training without smoke blowing will do for you. Put them in offense as much as you want. The truth of the matter is, if you are as dog savvy as you say, all the disagreed upon terms won't matter, it will show on the field.
> 
> I would pick a hunting event, but I don't claim to know anything about hunting dogs. You on the other hand need to learn a lesson about dogs that bite and what goes into the training. Don, come show us how easy it is.
> 
> You talk about only competing when you get called out, you been called, Son. I want a microchip number of the dog you are picking to show within a few days so you don't cheat and bring in a ringer, I'll be using my boxer as he is all I have right now.
> 
> I'll be looking for the date of an event in your response. If you don't, that says it all about you, the guy who allegedly took a flight to Ohio to prove someone wrong with his dogs. Performed better than any other dogs in twenty years **** hunting...Etc. Show me your true colors.
> 
> Put up or shut up, Don.


LMFAO Big Dave, I knew you were going to cur when you started acting so stupid. It was plain as day. I was wondering how you were going to do it without looking like a cur. You failed big talker. IO told you you were a smoke blower The deal was your goimng to prove "untrained" dogs won't protect....not train the dog for a year in a sport and you will meet me. Dave, Nicole even told you she would pay to fly you out here. You know, I think Nicole spotted you for a cur too. Hang your hat on the wall of shame smoke blower.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Apparently, I ran out of time to edit my last post ...I decided I wanted to add more to what I had to say.
> 
> As for a dog who works in offense not being flashy ...I'll admit, I have a pretty balanced dog. She's not just a prey monster who only shows non-classical aggression. But when she's on the field, she's working in offense a good majority of the time. With the exception of a couple scenarios, she is not truly feeling threatened. She's intense, confident and still manages to look flashy ...not exactly sure how that's possible. Maybe it's the whole "balance" thing. Or maybe it's the fact that trainers with flashy dogs train their asses off and work really hard to look good and take home medals and trophies. I love how the people who delegitimize dog sports are ones who have never done it. Competition is really difficult. It separates the grain from the chaff for all the world to see. There's no hiding behind words, staged photos or cleverly edited videos. You go out and put all your training to the test in front of anyone who wants to watch (and probably quite a few who are hoping you fail). You hope all the training and hard work you've done holds and your dog performs as well as they can. I don't see why that's any less legitimate than using a dog for a strictly utilitarian purpose. It's the same concept ...hope the dog does what they have been bred or trained to do when it really counts. There's a reason why some of the best trainers are excellent sport trainers as well ...they are perfectionists (or near perfectionists) with extrememly high standards. They don't accept mediocrity whether in a good, solid working dog or a competition dog.
> 
> I should probably go back to bed. Damn hurricane.


Ariel, Dave callsm it "prey drive" not offemnce. Made a big deal about it. Just to keep you up to date, this challenge came about because of people, not Dave in particular, talking about dogs they have never laid eyes on won't protect. Dave didn't start it, but was willing to step up and prove it. Making such positive references to animals they have never seen is pretty much the same as talking about things they don't know anything about. He curred anyway and we will find someone with more heart. Areil, as far as the attentive heel, I simply asked a question. Bob and a good number of people answered it quite plainly. Dave got really stupid and made a fool out of himself. He wasn't the only one. There are a few that are curs and all pounce together when they think they think another dog is hurt. That is the way curs do it. As I have sad many times, human behavior and canine behavior isn't much different. It is also why I knew from the beginning of that thread Dave was about to cur.


----------



## maggie fraser

Hey Don , maybe it is my simple scottish interpretation here but Dave doesn't sound like he is curring to me, quite the contrary actually. 'Put your money where your mouth is or put up' sounds pretty simple to me.

Great thread by the way!


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMFAO Big Dave, I knew you were going to cur when you started acting so stupid. It was plain as day. I was wondering how you were going to do it without looking like a cur. You failed big talker. IO told you you were a smoke blower The deal was your goimng to prove "untrained" dogs won't protect....not train the dog for a year in a sport and you will meet me. Dave, Nicole even told you she would pay to fly you out here. You know, I think Nicole spotted you for a cur too. Hang your hat on the wall of shame smoke blower.



Don.

Fact. I think some untrained dogs will bite. I don't think many will, but some will. 

Fact. I am STILL offering you to come out there test your dogs. Now, in reference to all the spouting you are doing about something you know nothing about (dogs that bite, obedience) I additionally want you to select an IPO competition and compete against me.

Fact. You won't answer a challenge to do both. A challenge to put up or shut up. 

Fact. Even if you don't accept my challenge to put up or shut up, I'll still come there and test your dog. Because I said I would and I am a man of my word.


Oh, and last fact. I wouldn't take one of your dogs to work now, even if it was the best dog on the planet. So, Nicole, please call me, I'll PM you my number. Let's get the test of Don's dogs underway since I don't have to wait on a puppy. We need a video grapher. We need some GOOD rules. Let's get it done. I have time.

I got your ****ing cur right here, Don.

The wind of your talk blows the colors of your flag straight and true for all to see.


----------



## Dave Colborn

maggie fraser said:


> Hey Don , maybe it is my simple scottish interpretation here but Dave doesn't sound like he is curring to me, quite the contrary actually. 'Put your money where your mouth is or put up' sounds pretty simple to me.
> 
> Great thread by the way!



Thanks Maggie for highlighting what I was saying. I think a hundred such posts as yours from other people on here won't change him. He is in denial. It makes me think he won't see what happens when I test his dogs, here shortly. I don't know what to do with him. He'll probably deny and stay away from any competition and testing of his dogs for whatever reason. Now that his bluff is called.


----------



## maggie fraser

Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks Maggie for highlighting what I was saying. I think a hundred such posts as yours from other people on here won't change him. He is in denial. It makes me think he won't see what happens when I test his dogs, here shortly. I don't know what to do with him. He'll probably deny and stay away from any competition and testing of his dogs for whatever reason. Now that his bluff is called.


Nah, I reckon Don would take it one further. No matter if there are spectators, video running slow motion, Don would 'talk' us all right through it even if his dogs took to the hills.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

I had a post underway about what I believe dog sport type competition has done for me in my actual work application, even though I have never stepped foot on a competition field. However, I deleted it because it occurred to me that the question by the op was rhetorical.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I had a post underway about what I believe dog sport type competition has done for me in my actual work application, even though I have never stepped foot on a competition field. However, I deleted it because it occurred to me that the question by the op was rhetorical.


Yes, rhetorical and probably meant to ruffle a couple feathers ...but Dave and I will apparently still bite. Fact of the matter is, there are people with ignorant (I'm not calling the people ignorant just their opinions on competition training because they have never been there) and biased opinions and I'm not afraid to stand up for what I believe. No, sport training isn't the be alll end all and certainly not a comprehensive test of a good dog, but it's not a detriment to the breed and a utter waste of time.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ariel, Dave callsm it "prey drive" not offemnce. Made a big deal about it. Just to keep you up to date, this challenge came about because of people, not Dave in particular, talking about dogs they have never laid eyes on won't protect. Dave didn't start it, but was willing to step up and prove it. Making such positive references to animals they have never seen is pretty much the same as talking about things they don't know anything about. He curred anyway and we will find someone with more heart. Areil, as far as the attentive heel, I simply asked a question. Bob and a good number of people answered it quite plainly. Dave got really stupid and made a fool out of himself. He wasn't the only one. There are a few that are curs and all pounce together when they think they think another dog is hurt. That is the way curs do it. As I have sad many times, human behavior and canine behavior isn't much different. It is also why I knew from the beginning of that thread Dave was about to cur.


Prey drive or offense ...I assumed you were talking about a dog that wasn't feeling threatened by the decoy and instead just wanted to chase/catch/kill.

As far as the challenge ...I was referring to the additional challenge Dave had suggested. Even the playing fields. If you believed sport training was a joke and easy to do and that your dogs had the drive and ability to do it, pick a venue (Dave mentioned IPO/SV) and let's all prepare our dogs for a competition next year. Just sounded fun to me. I like a challenge.

I know Dave personally and he is certainly not a cur. He'll absolutely make good on his agreement to test your dogs and will be even more driven to because you questioned his word. And he'll be fair. That's just Dave.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave, no need to bother Nicole. I will get someone to test the dogs but it won't be you. I am not going to help you save face by doing what was originally the deal. Part of the deal was, I was going to pick you up at the airport etc. Not going to happen. Your just going to have to live with currng on a public forum after all the big talk. You know Dave, people can learn a lot about dog by watching peoples behavior. They can also learn a lot about people by watching a dogs behavior because people try to mask themselves. When you called me a douche, I knew you were ready to quit the charade and back out. Next you tried to come across like your doing a challenge on your terms where you felt safer. Built a years saftey zone around you to boot....that is enough time for it to blow over. Yes, pretty much the same way a dog reacts when to much pressure has been applied. Won't tolerate curring in my dogs or my friends. May as well close this thread.


----------



## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> May as well close this thread.


No, no, no Don! Not time to close this thread at all. Besides, curring can mean you live to fight another day :wink::wink:.


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, no need to bother Nicole. I will get someone to test the dogs but it won't be you. I am not going to help you save face by doing what was originally the deal. Part of the deal was, I was going to pick you up at the airport etc. Not going to happen. Your just going to have to live with currng on a public forum after all the big talk. You know Dave, people can learn a lot about dog by watching peoples behavior. They can also learn a lot about people by watching a dogs behavior because people try to mask themselves. When you called me a douche, I knew you were ready to quit the charade and back out. Next you tried to come across like your doing a challenge on your terms where you felt safer. Built a years saftey zone around you to boot....that is enough time for it to blow over. Yes, pretty much the same way a dog reacts when to much pressure has been applied. Won't tolerate curring in my dogs or my friends. May as well close this thread.


Don, why do you think people are curring? 

do you actually think people are afraid to test your dogs? I am quite sure that Dave works with dogs that are far more likely to hurt him on a daily basis than your dogs are...

Don what in your mind is a fair test to you? I would like to see that one ironed out...for instance do you think it is relevant that the dog defends itself? or just you? and to avoid the unrealistic training "scenarios", how would it be tested?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, no need to bother Nicole. I will get someone to test the dogs but it won't be you. I am not going to help you save face by doing what was originally the deal. Part of the deal was, I was going to pick you up at the airport etc. Not going to happen. Your just going to have to live with currng on a public forum after all the big talk. You know Dave, people can learn a lot about dog by watching peoples behavior. They can also learn a lot about people by watching a dogs behavior because people try to mask themselves. When you called me a douche, I knew you were ready to quit the charade and back out. Next you tried to come across like your doing a challenge on your terms where you felt safer. Built a years saftey zone around you to boot....that is enough time for it to blow over. Yes, pretty much the same way a dog reacts when to much pressure has been applied. Won't tolerate curring in my dogs or my friends. May as well close this thread.


Just want to get this clear so I can cross post to your airedale forum. You don't want to compete, have me test your dogs, or continue this thread. Done, done and done. Sorry to hear that when the chips are down, you bailed. I am still waiting on a PM back from Nicole, I'll put myself up in a hotel and see if she'll get a rental for me, one last time just in case you think about it and change your mind, Don.


On a different note!!!

Who on the WDF would like to get together in about a year and do a trial, APPDA, PSA, Sch, Mondio, whatever. Right in the middle of the country. Get together like the last gathering, but do some competition stuff, or like was mentioned here before, showcase the sports. Is there another gathering planned? It seemed like all had fun at the last one. Is this realistic? Any interest? I am a little naive about some of the organizations that could be involved and all of the planning. Could it be pulled off? Could everyone benefit? Could it be televised? Uno is in, god willin and the creek don't rise!!!


----------



## Dave Colborn

Disregard post


----------



## maggie fraser

Dave Colborn said:


> Disregard post


I was just waiting on the 'may as well close this thread' :wink:. Think I've spent too much time reading Don's posts. Dunno about polls Dave.


----------



## Anna Kasho

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your just going to have to live with currng on a public forum after all the big talk.


Wow Don. You're the only one I see "curring" as you put it. Backing out of both the test, and the training challenge. That's enough for me.


----------



## susan tuck

Oh come on, no one is "curring" and no one is a "cur". IF everyone would stay out of it, the guys who are having the pissing contest would have their last words, then both go to their respective corners, no harm no foul. But when everyone else wants to dog pile onto these stupid fights they get so blown out of proportion, so please let's everyone else stay the hell out of it, for all the rest of our sakes!!!!! :lol:


----------



## Brian Anderson

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Prey drive or offense ...I assumed you were talking about a dog that wasn't feeling threatened by the decoy and instead just wanted to chase/catch/kill.
> 
> As far as the challenge ...I was referring to the additional challenge Dave had suggested. Even the playing fields. If you believed sport training was a joke and easy to do and that your dogs had the drive and ability to do it, pick a venue (Dave mentioned IPO/SV) and let's all prepare our dogs for a competition next year. Just sounded fun to me. I like a challenge.
> 
> I know Dave personally and he is certainly not a cur. He'll absolutely make good on his agreement to test your dogs and will be even more driven to because you questioned his word. And he'll be fair. That's just Dave.



Ariel Id be willing to take you up on that. Long as we all start with a green dog? Or? Dave is no cur hell I think he's like me he actually likes feeling the pressure from the dog lol.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> Don, why do you think people are curring?
> 
> do you actually think people are afraid to test your dogs? I am quite sure that Dave works with dogs that are far more likely to hurt him on a daily basis than your dogs are...
> 
> Don what in your mind is a fair test to you? I would like to see that one ironed out...for instance do you think it is relevant that the dog defends itself? or just you? and to avoid the unrealistic training "scenarios", how would it be tested?


Joby, people aren't curring, Dave curred. The test is pretty much the same as when you and I were bantering this back and forth. It came about because untrained dogs won't protect. No more, no less. Same thing Dave and I agreed on outside of the particulars. Suddenly Dave changes the whole thing to me training a dog for a year and competing against another dog yadda, yadda, yadda. Has nothing to do with the original reason of the challenge. I don't care how Dave tries to make it look....it's curring. As far as anyone being afraid to test the dogs, why should they be, they got a suit and I can handle them.

The point had nothing to do with the dog defending themselves, it was will they bite to protect me. That is it. So, why don't you come out instead. We have beat each other up since you have been here and you don't fall apart and go emotional.


----------



## maggie fraser

susan tuck said:


> Oh come on, no one is "curring" and no one is a "cur". IF everyone would stay out of it, the guys who are having the pissing contest would have their last words, then both go to their respective corners, no harm no foul. But when everyone else wants to dog pile onto these stupid fights they get so blown out of proportion, so please let's everyone else stay the hell out of it, for all the rest of our sakes!!!!! :lol:


 
Oh come on, there is curring going on, and there is a cur...his name begins with D. There are no corners for one particular D though, this is the issue and I am enjoying it for now. It is an internet forum after all and not a shop window. Now I'll stay out of it...maybe.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Don Turnipseed said:


> Training and dogs? Heeling has a specific purpose. Take your dog out for a walk, on or off leash, and be able to enjoy the walk. Who wants to walk with a dog pressed up against your leg staring up at you for 5 miles. No one I know. It is insane but that is peoples idea of a good heel today. It is good for nothing outside of a ring but people have lost track of it's original purpose
> 
> 
> *Have to agree with you there Don, I see it all the time during training here, people working their dog so he will look at them during the heel exercise and im thinking to myself "what good is it when the bad guy takes a potshot at you but the dog is to busy paying attention to its owner to even notice" now granted I to lazyarsed to read the whole bloody thread :lol: but I feel the frantic heeling has one purpose and that is sports and nothing else, its of no use what so ever during real life work...it looks flashy, makes the handler look good but I see no real use in it when it comes to every day life or the working streetdog in general. I would even go as far as to say I wouldnt buy a dog like that since hes been trained for flash and not function....keep in mind tho that I dont train my dogs as sportsdogs but streetdogs (if they have it in them) I have absolutly no intrest in sporting events at all.*
> 
> Same thing with bite sports. A good solid dog doesn't earn points. Everything has become about flash, not good dogs. What is the matter with this picture???? Flash doesn't make good dogs.
> 
> _*again Im in full agreement with you...everything apart from the kitchensink will be thrown at the dog to make his charge as fantatic and spectacular as possible these days... big swings when biting the arm...lots of flashy movements and DAMN will ya look at that dog goooo.....attacks from 12 feet away with dogs flyin like a bloody 747....and the use would be ? beats me...but hey it looks ****in awesome dont it ? granted that some dogs do this by nature..had a few myself where i did all i could to tone it down since that flashy spectacular bullshit can cost you your dog, its teeth, your decoy...hell theres a whole range of shit that can go wrong coze it keeps being pushed to make it more showy...does it give you a better dog tho ? doubtfull! VERY doubtfull indeed! Lets make it real simple...ive seen dogs during the nationals that became national champion that i wouldnt want in my kennels even if they paid me for it, and ive seen dogs who scored a shitload less points that were a lot more convincing to me that I would pay top dollar for without thinking twice....showy flashy pretty spectacular...its all nice to see, it dont neccesarily make a good dog tho
> * _


----------



## manny rose

Looks as though we will never know who is the true Curr don or his dogs!!! Looks after all that, don is the self proclaimed curr. As always ypu can claim anything on the www. But put up or shut up should have cleared this up. Just had to throw my two cents in after all this readi g for nothing.....


----------



## Christopher Smith

Hey Don! Competition is sort of like getting called out on the internet. You either rise to the occasion or you don't. But at least if you rise and fail you ain't no cur.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don.

I just don't know what to say. You have resorted to name calling and pulled the offer to test your dogs off the table, on a totally unrelated thread. I posted an excerpt I typed from this thread on your board to see if your minions there can get you from behind the keyboard to test or compete.

Sorry you have shown yourself this way, but I am done. Hope you open the offer and let me come test your dogs, I'll still be fair. I won't be typing anymore in this thread (although I will cut and paste if you keep up the name calling to continue to point out your inconsistencies)!!!

I guess your ploy now is to get a mod to close this for your name calling. I hope that doesn't happen.

It would be despicable and cowardly if that was your intent. hmmm. The definition of cur.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Alice "*I to lazyarsed "* i love it, thats my new phrase. hope u don't mind me plagiarising it.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> Hey Don! Competition is sort of like getting called out on the internet. You either rise to the occasion or you don't. But at least if you rise and fail you ain't no cur.


Right...I thought a cur at least shows up to the fight and runs. This ain't even showing up.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

i hate the way u gringos use the word curr, to me its the supreme hunting dog, aint nothing to do with backing out of a fight. 

cultural difference


----------



## Don Turnipseed

I resorted to name calling....after Dave called me a douche which Bob removed....and Dave is curring. He backed out when he decided to do it totally different by training dogs for a year. Has not a thing to do with if untrained dogs will protect. Dave knows he curred, I know he curred, Dave knows I know he curred. I challenged on the untrained dog scenario, Dave jumped in and accepted when Nicole said she would pay the plane fare. Dave said he wouild test the dogs" to see if they would protect without being trained". Then decided we should train dogs for a year and meet somewhere in between. Doesn't really matter what the rest of you want to fantasize about. What counts is Dave curred and he will remember it for years when he looks in the mirror. That is what counts. Can he come here just to save face now. No way. I cull any dogs I see cur because you can't count on them for anything. Would I use a cur to teach my young pups? No, they will just teach them to be curs. Dave isn't going to work my dogs for the same reason. Yes, I know I can be brutal....but I can't stand a cur. Anyone that has the sand to follow through with the deal as was proposed is welcome. Like I said, I may end up with egg on my face, but, that is the chance I am willing to take..... and have always been willing to take.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Basic reading comprehension is beyond Don. Known this for years. Dave has never, ever backed out of testing Don's dogs. 



> You have laid down the offer to get someone out to your place to test your dogs and raise their worth. I took that offer. Not out of spite, but because I do believe some dogs will bite without training. I like seeing what dogs will do. Dog behavior stuff. Training stuff. I am coming to help you and your breed find out if what you believe is true. I gave my word, I'll still do that.





> So, Nicole, please call me, I'll PM you my number. Let's get the test of Don's dogs underway since I don't have to wait on a puppy. We need a video grapher. We need some GOOD rules. Let's get it done. I have time.





> Hope you open the offer and let me come test your dogs, I'll still be fair.


And why would he? A free trip to California sounds like fun. Because he's scared? I'm sure he's decoyed much, much more serious dogs than these mythical beasts of Don's that will consume mere mortals with fireballs from their eyes and bolts of lightning from their arses. But that's what you get when you have so much ego wrapped in dogs, of all things. :lol:


----------



## Chris McDonald

Don Turnipseed said:


> I resorted to name calling....after Dave called me a douche which Bob removed....and Dave is curring.
> 
> Ha Ha, Douche bag, Dave Called me a Douche bag
> All right I been busy playing with a storm that was a bit of a letdown just got down to getting a good look at this tread. I think the best thing I could have done was not answer any of you because for the most part you all pretty much all shot yourselves in the foot.
> First off I had Dave who asked to see a video, so I showed him one. Then he Ariel few others jumped on the douche bag express with Thomas that that my videos are just tricky editing of my back yard videos. What I find really funny about the it’s an edited video approach is “no sh*t douche bags. Yes I did likely put the better more interesting few minutes of video up. But taking that into consideration its still me and my dog. AND im pretty sure if you go back and look I did post this video here and stated that me and my dog stopped at a construction site goofed around on some drain pipe and did what I considered a failure of a article search for this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAoZ-4U19Gk Yes I consider the “fetch keys” in this video a failure because I really had to direct him into the area I know the keys were in. I think I asked what some of the issues might have played into the issues with the article search. I believed the hot weather, I think it was close to a 100 that day with no breeze played into it. Did my dog loose balance and jump off one of the pipes… very likely yes.
> Another video I posted here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqC_py5ApVE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL was posted solely because I fell in the water at the very beginning and I thought it was funny. I just finished a track and told my buddy I was going to walk out onto the log and the guy I was tracking said hang on im gona go get a camera. He took about a bit of video and I posted some. I think someone busted my balls about my dog not listening to me and crawling when I told him to wait.
> So you ask for video I post it and the best Thomas and you other great dog trainers can say ya but he edited the video yourself… Man Ill take that as a compliment.
> 
> Oh ya then I have Thomas all worried about my grammar, again making me think my dog must be performing better than I initially thought. Yes Thomas grammar is important, thank god you guys with good grammar are a dime a dozen when I need you.
> 
> Then we got this Ariel chick talking that she needs her dog to perform consistently and that the methods I use don’t get those results but hers do. Then a few posts later she explains that the she needs the attention heeling so the dog pays attention to her so it doesn’t bite a decoy when it isn’t supposed to. WTF is that all about? How about it don’t bite the decoy because you told it not to bite the decoy? Not because you need to get it side traced into staring into space… ya that real useful and a good argument to make.. you freaking kidden me? The first 2:30 of this video is of a dog biting and not biting when told http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTLjJ8AZFq0&feature=BFa&list=ULBqbqQXdjEbc&lf=mfu_in_order
> 
> The video I like best is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMPlcDfBvi4&feature=BFa&list=ULWJTLFEQ-XQ8&lf=mfu_in_order starting at 3:20 it is my Greyhound “staying close” and tracking off lead, and ya I edited that one too, so its real tricky. Really the dog was computer animated and put in later I was really walking by myself and talking to myself.
> 
> 
> 
> Then someplace you got the guy talking about hunting dogs (I can’t find his name) asking about what hunting event I was referring too when I said that point systems don’t help his dream of the best dream genetic pool.. or whatever… but then a few post later he is saying something about how he thinks some hunting sport shouldn’t have a point system.. WTF is wrong with all you people?
> 
> Still waiting for video from a few of you guys. Thomas have you ever shared anything? Maren you are right getting video online is easy can you please point me in the direction of the one I was speaking of-of you. I do appreciate that you don’t mind posting videos of your train wreaks. As you know I only post well edited perfection. I took a look at your website with all that experience you claim in all those sports you must have something you can share? If you’d like, I’ll be glad to help you get it so that website is usable.
> Id really like to see some video from the guy who was talking about hunting with his dogs. Not goofing around id like to see your dogs working
> 
> And this is one of the most bad ass ninja owning ever… from some crazy old terrier guy drinking whisky
> Originally Posted by *Don Turnipseed* http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/what-has-competition-done-21458/index11.html#post293273_
> Naw Dave, Your no dumber than you were when you started this...your just realizing it more._
> 
> That was ninja
> 
> Thomas please PM me all my grammar mistakes


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*For Chris McDonald*

caused he asked so nice.
http://vimeo.com/24302445
We missed the 2nd leg for his MR I Title by 3 points :-(
Been working on Change of position and food refusal and tightening up the DOH. Will retry on October (8/9) and then
for Flannchadh SchH I the following weekend. I'll see about getting video of both.

FYI: The Yeti standing behind the A-frame all wrapped in a blanket is Jeff O (at about 4:00)


----------



## Chris McDonald

I would have edited out him eating the hot dog! :razz:
I take it he is looking for a ball or treat at 6:10 in? If so that ball stuff just seems like a distraction to me. Any reason you pet him so much? Just wondering? I respect you for sharing it but I do have to admit you and the dog don’t look all too good to me as a team, off day or is that just the way it is? Actually not trying to be a buster I was just expecting better. Although I only got 6:10 in before I shut it off.


----------



## Chris McDonald

I watched some more and determined that your dog thinks as highly about you as I do. Among many things what really made me think that was the FU I think you’re a scum bag fetch at 12:50 (that’s as far as I can get this time). During the heel he is constantly cutting you off and trying to make you go where he wants you to go, no respect for you. That dog just “F”s with you the whole time, he hates you. I have seen people with better handler skills after two weekend courses. JMO im sure you won’t agree, but man I expected more with the way you run your mouth


----------



## Chris McDonald

All right watched the whole thing in little bits, don’t know why anyone would take a obese dog to something like this but it all goes along with who you are. Ill respect you for posting the video but I aint got no respect for you. Nor does your dog.


----------



## Bob Scott

Absolutely NO NEED for all the childish insults! 
This is what amazes me about this and any dog forum. Seems that some folks think calling names and insults is what makes for excitement. Maybe if your in sixth grade!
Get on the field with a dog and show what you can do. THAT'S what should impress, not the childish bullshit!


----------



## Chris McDonald

Sometimes the truth isn’t nice Bob its even insulting to some, I was amazed by the video, Sorry, Ill bow out from here


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

gee Chris; - note to self - do not put a vid up of me training dog - harsh


----------



## Bob Scott

Nothing wrong with honest criticism of any video or a method but be prepared to say why and not just trash it cause you can. Not the childish bullshit! ;-)


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> Maren you are right getting video online is easy can you please point me in the direction of the one I was speaking of-of you. I do appreciate that you don’t mind posting videos of your train wreaks. As you know I only post well edited perfection. I took a look at your website with all that experience you claim in all those sports you must have something you can share? If you’d like, I’ll be glad to help you get it so that website is usable.
> Id really like to see some video from the guy who was talking about hunting with his dogs. Not goofing around id like to see your dogs working


My number one reason for training in a bunch of different venues (beyond that it's fun) is not to be extremely advanced or competitive. I don't have time for that. It's so I can understand when performance clients tell me things like "my dog is having trouble with the A frame when she didn't use to" or "I think my dog might have a shoulder injury from lure coursing." I even go to conformation shows every once in a while just to watch to see what the dogs do, how they are handled, and to watch how different showline dogs gait. And that "Ariel chick" is one of the only people in the country to title their dog to PSA 3, which is an *extremely* difficult feat. She might know what she's talking about. ;-)

I'll pass on the help with the website. I need it to be vaguely intelligible, thanks. :-D Was this the video with my little female from a year and a half ago? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zNrAPghdIk

Train wreck? What, of me actually like...training? Maybe making some mistakes or my dog making mistakes?







Surely not! Don't you know they do it perfectly every time? Or that's how it seems on teh interwebz anyways. 

PS...Ironically, you actually have seen that "hunting guy" in a video before, you just didn't know it. Ponder that one for a while... :-k


----------



## Chris McDonald

Na, Peter Thomas is the only one on here that I would have said this to. He has talked the talk for many years, playing internet police, bad talking many, etc. The great thing is he will always think he is the great dog man he built himself up to be in his mind no matter what. 
There is a real lot going on between handler and dog in the video. The dog knows what is wanted of him. 
Can someone tell me what a DOH is ?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Defense of handler


----------



## Nicole Stark

Don, let's just get this done. I'd take it as a generous favor if you'd honor your original offer to have Dave out. Nothing else about what has taken place in this thread concerns or is of interest to me at this point. Further, any additional discussion about this matter should be contained to the three of us from this point forward.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> I would have edited out him eating the hot dog! :razz:
> I take it he is looking for a ball or treat at 6:10 in? If so that ball stuff just seems like a distraction to me. Any reason you pet him so much? Just wondering? I respect you for sharing it but I do have to admit you and the dog don’t look all too good to me as a team, off day or is that just the way it is? Actually not trying to be a buster I was just expecting better. Although I only got 6:10 in before I shut it off.



Chris,

I'll reply to this one post and ignore the other 3?
There was no editing by me. The dog failed the food refusal both days so that's what you see. Same for the change of position. That was the 1st time he'd been worked in almost
three weeks because of some recurring back problems I had.
I had a cortisone shot into my lower spine a couple of weeks ago and am on Vicodin 3x a day. He was looking for a tug reward at 6:10. He gets a reward in training most of the time.
I pet him a lot between exercises because it's allowed and as a reward since there is no tugs and no collar or leash in a Mondio Ring trial. You have legitimate criticisms of the trial
video. Most of the problems I was aware of and have worked to fix. We'll see what happens at the next trial.

Your dog looks real good on the agility video and bites good with nothing but you and a couple of decoys. Lets see him on
a trial field with no collar or leash, no rewards (except petting or verbal praise) between exercises and up to 10 people plus other distractions on the field. Not to mention another 30 spectators.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> I'll reply to this one post and ignore the other 3?
> There was no editing by me. The dog failed the food refusal both days so that's what you see. Same for the change of position. That was the 1st time he'd been worked in almost
> three weeks because of some recurring back problems I had.
> I had a cortisone shot into my lower spine a couple of weeks ago and am on Vicodin 3x a day. He was looking for a tug reward at 6:10. He gets a reward in training most of the time.
> I pet him a lot between exercises because it's allowed and as a reward since there is no tugs and no collar or leash in a Mondio Ring trial. You have legitimate criticisms of the trial
> video. Most of the problems I was aware of and have worked to fix. We'll see what happens at the next trial.
> 
> Your dog looks real good on the agility video and bites good with nothing but you and a couple of decoys. Lets see him on
> a trial field with no collar or leash, no rewards (except petting or verbal praise) between exercises and up to 10 people plus other distractions on the field. Not to mention another 30 spectators.



Classy dude, for all the flak you took!! 

I saw some flaws, but I saw a guy posting some work when asked. Nice job Thomas. Good luck at your next trial.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Brian Anderson said:


> Ariel Id be willing to take you up on that. Long as we all start with a green dog? Or? Dave is no cur hell I think he's like me he actually likes feeling the pressure from the dog lol.


Brian - I am always up for a friendly challenge ...it motivates me. I'd probably say I'd prefer Schutzhund or PSA because the closest FR club is many hours away. I'm not even sure where the closest MR ring club would be. But, if a ring sport it must be ...I'll find a way to train it. Just need to find experienced ring decoys. Oh yeah, and a green dog.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Brian - I am always up for a friendly challenge ...it motivates me. I'd probably say I'd prefer Schutzhund or PSA because the closest FR club is many hours away. I'm not even sure where the closest MR ring club would be. But, if a ring sport it must be ...I'll find a way to train it. Just need to find experienced ring decoys. Oh yeah, and a green dog.



Lets put another twist on it. A rescue/pound dog!!! spayed or neutered. Keeps the cost down and makes good dog selection a must. I have an edge. I have a rott in right now that I think will do it!!! He is hell on wheels with a tennis ball!!!

Can we agree on Sch? I have never done it, and look forward to the tracking (now, until I have to train it)


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I would love a Gathering 2.0. Some friendly competition would be great. I vote midwest! 14 hours to drive was a bit long. ;-)


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Chris McDonald said:


> Na, Peter Thomas is the only one on here that I would have said this to.


 
cool my film acting career is not over then


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Chris McDonald said:


> Don Turnipseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> I resorted to name calling....after Dave called me a douche which Bob removed....and Dave is curring.
> 
> First off I had Dave who asked to see a video, so I showed him one. Then he Ariel few others jumped on the douche bag express with Thomas that that my videos are just tricky editing of my back yard videos. What I find really funny about the it’s an edited video approach is “no sh*t douche bags. Yes I did likely put the better more interesting few minutes of video up. But taking that into consideration its still me and my dog. AND im pretty sure if you go back and look I did post this video here and stated that me and my dog stopped at a construction site goofed around on some drain pipe and did what I considered a failure of a article search for this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAoZ-4U19Gk Yes I consider the “fetch keys” in this video a failure because I really had to direct him into the area I know the keys were in. I think I asked what some of the issues might have played into the issues with the article search. I believed the hot weather, I think it was close to a 100 that day with no breeze played into it. Did my dog loose balance and jump off one of the pipes… very likely yes.
> Another video I posted here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqC_py5ApVE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL was posted solely because I fell in the water at the very beginning and I thought it was funny. I just finished a track and told my buddy I was going to walk out onto the log and the guy I was tracking said hang on im gona go get a camera. He took about a bit of video and I posted some. I think someone busted my balls about my dog not listening to me and crawling when I told him to wait.
> So you ask for video I post it and the best Thomas and you other great dog trainers can say ya but he edited the video yourself… Man Ill take that as a compliment.
> 
> Then we got this Ariel chick talking that she needs her dog to perform consistently and that the methods I use don’t get those results but hers do. Then a few posts later she explains that the she needs the attention heeling so the dog pays attention to her so it doesn’t bite a decoy when it isn’t supposed to. WTF is that all about? How about it don’t bite the decoy because you told it not to bite the decoy? Not because you need to get it side traced into staring into space… ya that real useful and a good argument to make.. you freaking kidden me? The first 2:30 of this video is of a dog biting and not biting when told http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTLjJ8AZFq0&feature=BFa&list=ULBqbqQXdjEbc&lf=mfu_in_order
> 
> 
> 
> Whew! This chick finally has time to sit down and write a reply. Chris, I am sure calling me a chick was probably your attempt at cutting me down a bit with some chauvinistic male slang but I'm really okay with it. Just wanted to make sure you know your digs didn't go unnoticed!
> 
> Okay, let's see where I should begin.
> 
> First, I never specifically said you edited your videos. Clearly, they are edited, but I actually wasn't envisioning your video when I mentioned editing with the intention of making a dog look better. The first video you posted actually gave a good picture of your dog working and I believe I actually said he looked good in it. Not sure why you automatically assumed I was referring to you unless deep down you're questioning something yourself.
> 
> I was actually quite impressed with the article search. So what you had to direct your dog? That's called training. What I found impressive was that he was searching intently for an extended period of time and, in the end, was successful. No need to try to cover your tracks there. If it were an actual search, no one says you can't direct your dog to a more productive area once he has cleared one section.
> 
> When I was saying rewards and corrections could produce better results than just expecting a dog to work for you, I was actually more referring to your dog's attitude overall. He didn't really look very happy to be doing the agility. I did say he probably gets some satisfaction out of doing it which is why he continues to do so, but I think you could get a better attitude and more enthusiasm with rewards other than handler praise. Him losing his balance and falling isn't disobedience and therefore, I wouldn't discredit you or the dog. He's not a machine. He's a dog. He is allowed to lose his balance and make a mistake.
> 
> As far as the attention heeling, in the next post, I'll include links to my videos and you can watch the videos on my YouTube channel and decide for yourself whether an attention heel helps my performance or not. I watched your video and didn't see you doing any heeling with decoy pressure. Your dog maintained a stay, bit when told, let go when told and came back to you and followed you from point to point. Sure, I can do all of that without attention. But, I do compete and I would like to score high. So, when I'm heeling, I would prefer the dog not be thinking about breaking position and biting when she's supposed to be heeling (like your dog does at 2:10 of the video of the dog "biting and not biting"). I can still direct her to bite when and where I need her to and take the decision making out of her paws.
> 
> Also, I have to ask, you and Don are so vehemently opposed to sport training because to you, it apparently has no utilitarian purpose. I must ask, why are you showing video of your dog jumping off a bridge into water that's deep enough that he has to swim to look for a suspect you're tracking (I'm making assumptions based upon the context clues in your video)? To me, that's just plain stupid. What purpose is there to that other than to watch your dog be drowned? A child could drown your dog in that situation. That is a prime example of an absolutely useless application of a working dog. Sure, it looks cool and impresses people ...much the same way a competition might. But would you ever actually do that if you were tracking a dangerous suspect and believed he might be nearby? I wouldn't unless I wanted to waste a valuable resource. I feel the same way about water work. Any dog is at a serious disadvantage in water and there's little practical application for it. I think that video shows the pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> I suppose the tracking Greyhound is impressive. Not having been there, it's impossible to know if the dog actually followed the path or happened upon the camera man, but I have to assume, either way, the dog knew what he was looking for and found it.
> 
> I'll have to find some unique training areas that afford me the ability to film some tracks at a distance and run my dog off leash and let you see how she works. I'll also try to find some areas and replicate what I see in your videos to prove my competition dog can do whatever you consider to be useful tasks. Not that I really think the things you've shown are all useful ...but they look like fun and I do get bored with competition training now and again. I'll also try to film some other, more practical applications for a dog trained to do protection/agility/obedience/detection ...just to show her versatility.
> 
> I think I've answered all the mail from your post. Let me know if I've missed something.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Dave Colborn said:


> Lets put another twist on it. A rescue/pound dog!!! spayed or neutered. Keeps the cost down and makes good dog selection a must. I have an edge. I have a rott in right now that I think will do it!!! He is hell on wheels with a tennis ball!!!
> 
> Can we agree on Sch? I have never done it, and look forward to the tracking (now, until I have to train it)


No fair on the pound puppies! You and Aimee have an in. Plus, I never luck out with the rescues, unless you count Levi. He could maybe do Sch ...as a joke!


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Okay ...time for me to put up or shut up. My videos are obviously not edited for no other reason than I have been too lazy to learn how to edit videos.

PSA 1 Obedience (94.5/100)

http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee#p/f/9/nVMr_gCPuCw

PSA 1 Protection (209/220)

http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee#p/u/7/p4O8aeEw_cY

PSA 2 Obedience (judge says 92 - score was actually 97/100 ...the judge added incorrectly)

http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee#p/u/5/_b3ZQnFFs2o

PSA 2 Protection (227.5/240)

http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee#p/u/4/Qec913ssrTE

PSA 3 Obedience (92.5/100 - sorry the video is so shaky - blame my sister)

http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee#p/u/3/_eXjb88npqw

PSA 3 Protection (181/200)

Scenarios 1 and 2
http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee#p/u/2/3WUQc_9sygo

Scenario 3
http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee#p/u/1/BVJO_ZcQ1XI

Scenario 4
http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee#p/u/0/7DiNtQbmoXo

There are other videos on my channel as well. There's one of my lab doing a roadway search. I'll try to post some more soon. I know I have some of Blitzen and I doing cadaver training when we were deployed to Iraq - I think that would showcase a good practical application of our skills. Sorry, no video of actual mission deployments for obvious reasons. I'll also try to get on the ball and film some tracking and more detection work.

I guess this is what competition has done ...


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Oh, and Chris ...now that I've posted some of my videos ...if you don't feel attention heeling is necessary, why don't you post a video of you and your dog doing a few of the routines my dog and I did for obedience? No collars, no leashes, brand new location (of course I'd never know). 

I know you'll say it's stupid and impractical ...but before you knock what I do, why don't you walk a mile in my shoes?


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

*Re: For Chris McDonald*



Thomas Barriano said:


> caused he asked so nice.
> http://vimeo.com/24302445
> We missed the 2nd leg for his MR I Title by 3 points :-(
> Been working on Change of position and food refusal and tightening up the DOH. Will retry on October (8/9) and then
> for Flannchadh SchH I the following weekend. I'll see about getting video of both.
> 
> FYI: The Yeti standing behind the A-frame all wrapped in a blanket is Jeff O (at about 4:00)


 
Kudos for posting video. You know where your dog needs work, but I can't see how anyone could say that your dog hates you. Sure, he may come back expecting a reward at times, but he is relaxed and happy. And there's nothing wrong with expecting a reward ...you just need to increase the time between rewards so that he performs consistently throughout the entire routine (which is quite long, I might add - I'm not very familiar with MR). Honestly, he looks like he's enjoying himself more than Chris' dog who looks obviously uncomfortable during some of the videos he's posted. Keep training consistently and you'll clearly have no problem passing in the near future. Those who haven't done it have no idea how difficult it is to have sharp, consistent obedience with such a high level of distraction on the field. Good luck in October!


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Nicole Stark said:


> Don, let's just get this done. I'd take it as a generous favor if you'd honor your original offer to have Dave out. Nothing else about what has taken place in this thread concerns or is of interest to me at this point. Further, any additional discussion about this matter should be contained to the three of us from this point forward.


Nicole, It would be far more than generous. Why would I spend the time, driving 120 mi to get Dave and bring him up here. house him and feed him, drive another 120 mi to take him back when I am a douche. Do you really think I would be civil. *As a favor to you, let's do it, I will give him directions and we will do it here. Tell him to pack his bags and put on his big boy pants.* I am not going anywhere and I know a cur when I see it. He will cur on this too. He did that before he said he would still honor the aggrement. He knew exactly how that would go over and that it would kill the deal. That is why he had a counter challenge....which he also knows I wouildn't train a dog for bitework. He killed this deal on purpose and has the wool pulled over everyones eyes

http://workingairedale.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3441&page=1


----------



## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> I resorted to name calling....after Dave called me a douche which Bob removed....and Dave is curring. He backed out when he decided to do it totally different by training dogs for a year. Has not a thing to do with if untrained dogs will protect. Dave knows he curred, I know he curred, Dave knows I know he curred. I challenged on the untrained dog scenario, Dave jumped in and accepted when Nicole said she would pay the plane fare. Dave said he wouild test the dogs" to see if they would protect without being trained". Then decided we should train dogs for a year and meet somewhere in between.* Doesn't really matter what the rest of you want to fantasize about.* What counts is Dave curred and he will remember it for years when he looks in the mirror. That is what counts. Can he come here just to save face now. No way. I cull any dogs I see cur because you can't count on them for anything. Would I use a cur to teach my young pups? No, they will just teach them to be curs. Dave isn't going to work my dogs for the same reason. *Yes, I know I can be brutal*....but I can't stand a cur. Anyone that has the sand to follow through with the deal as was proposed is welcome. Like I said,* I may end up with egg on my face, but, that is the chance I am willing to take*..... and have always been willing to take.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Dave Colborn said:


> Classy dude, for all the flak you took!!
> 
> I saw some flaws, but I saw a guy posting some work when asked. Nice job Thomas. Good luck at your next trial.


Thanks Dave. All I have to worry about is my back and knees
holding up between now and the trial


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: For Chris McDonald*



Ariel Peldunas said:


> Kudos for posting video. You know where your dog needs work, but I can't see how anyone could say that your dog hates you. Sure, he may come back expecting a reward at times, but he is relaxed and happy. And there's nothing wrong with expecting a reward ...you just need to increase the time between rewards so that he performs consistently throughout the entire routine (which is quite long, I might add - I'm not very familiar with MR). Honestly, he looks like he's enjoying himself more than Chris' dog who looks obviously uncomfortable during some of the videos he's posted. Keep training consistently and you'll clearly have no problem passing in the near future. Those who haven't done it have no idea how difficult it is to have sharp, consistent obedience with such a high level of distraction on the field. Good luck in October!


Hi Ariel

Thanks for the support. It's nice to get input from someone that
actually competes. I"ll be happy if Belatucadrus looks half as good as Blitzen did in the PSA video. I'd like to look half as good as you did BUT being twice your age and twice your size
that may be hard to do


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

*Re: For Chris McDonald*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Ariel
> 
> Thanks for the support. It's nice to get input from someone that
> actually competes. I"ll be happy if Belatucadrus looks half as good as Blitzen did in the PSA video. I'd like to look half as good as you did BUT being twice your age and twice your size
> that may be hard to do


 
Thomas, 

Not sure if you noticed in the PSA 1 Obedience video, but I'm not always quite so graceful. I tripped over the tarp lying on the ground at the PSA Nationals last year. I do a whole lot of clumsy things. I got a cone stuck on my dog's leg one time after doing my about turn to close to a cone. I know I have to proof for my lack of coordination and luckily, I think my dog has come to expect it. So, you may have some years and pounds on me, but it looked like you did a pretty good job of staying on your feet!

Thanks for the compliment!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: For Chris McDonald*



Ariel Peldunas said:


> Thomas,
> 
> Not sure if you noticed in the PSA 1 Obedience video, but I'm not always quite so graceful. I tripped over the tarp lying on the ground at the PSA Nationals last year. I do a whole lot of clumsy things. I got a cone stuck on my dog's leg one time after doing my about turn to close to a cone. I know I have to proof for my lack of coordination and luckily, I think my dog has come to expect it. So, you may have some years and pounds on me, but it looked like you did a pretty good job of staying on your feet!
> 
> Thanks for the compliment!


Hi Ariel,

You PSA people go a little overboard with your trial field distractions 
It's not a surprise anyone would trip over something, there's so much junk laying around :=)
I'm going to head out and see about getting a couple of hours of training in before it gets too hot. TTYL


----------



## Chris McDonald

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whew! This chick finally has time to sit down and write a reply. Chris, I am sure calling me a chick was probably your attempt at cutting me down a bit with some chauvinistic male slang but I'm really okay with it. Just wanted to make sure you know your digs didn't go unnoticed!
> 
> Wouldn’t really say “chauvinistic” more like clucking hen for someone who just sighed on, but guys can be clucking hens too so not meant to be chauvinistic. But much of the stuff you said below you might not have said if you been on here for a bit longer than you have.
> Okay, let's see where I should begin.
> 
> First, I never specifically said you edited your videos. Clearly, they are edited, but I actually wasn't envisioning your video when I mentioned editing with the intention of making a dog look better. The first video you posted actually gave a good picture of your dog working and I believe I actually said he looked good in it. Not sure why you automatically assumed I was referring to you unless deep down you're questioning something yourself.
> 
> I don’t think my comments regarding editing were geared toward you. You might be thinking a bit highly of yourself thinking that
> I was actually quite impressed with the article search. So what you had to direct your dog? That's called training. What I found impressive was that he was searching intently for an extended period of time and, in the end, was successful. No need to try to cover your tracks there. If it were an actual search, no one says you can't direct your dog to a more productive area once he has cleared one section.
> 
> When I was saying rewards and corrections could produce better results than just expecting a dog to work for you, I was actually more referring to your dog's attitude overall. He didn't really look very happy to be doing the agility. I did say he probably gets some satisfaction out of doing it which is why he continues to do so, but I think you could get a better attitude and more enthusiasm with rewards other than handler praise. Him losing his balance and falling isn't disobedience and therefore, I wouldn't discredit you or the dog. He's not a machine. He's a dog. He is allowed to lose his balance and make a mistake.
> 
> As far as the attention heeling, in the next post, I'll include links to my videos and you can watch the videos on my YouTube channel and decide for yourself whether an attention heel helps my performance or not. I watched your video and didn't see you doing any heeling with decoy pressure. Your dog maintained a stay, bit when told, let go when told and came back to you and followed you from point to point. Sure, I can do all of that without attention. But, I do compete and I would like to score high. So, when I'm heeling, I would prefer the dog not be thinking about breaking position and biting when she's supposed to be heeling (like your dog does at 2:10 of the video of the dog "biting and not biting"). I can still direct her to bite when and where I need her to and take the decision making out of her paws.
> In a way you just enforced explained to me why I don’t really care for attention heeling here. You need to use it as a crutch to trick the dog into not paying attention to a decoy or other distractions being in the area. If I was a judge I would personally score higher for the dog that was actively monitoring its surroundings then along with its owners input making decisions and acting on them. Such as my dog did when he broke is sit when a decoy looked as if he was going to attack me than sat back down once it was clear the decoy was not. But there is really no wrong or right to this it is just personal preference
> 
> Also, I have to ask, you and Don are so vehemently opposed to sport training because to you, it apparently has no utilitarian purpose. I must ask, why are you showing video of your dog jumping off a bridge into water that's deep enough that he has to swim to look for a suspect you're tracking (I'm making assumptions based upon the context clues in your video)? To me, that's just plain stupid. What purpose is there to that other than to watch your dog be drowned? A child could drown your dog in that situation. That is a prime example of an absolutely useless application of a working dog. Sure, it looks cool and impresses people ...much the same way a competition might. But would you ever actually do that if you were tracking a dangerous suspect and believed he might be nearby? I wouldn't unless I wanted to waste a valuable resource. I feel the same way about water work. Any dog is at a serious disadvantage in water and there's little practical application for it. I think that video shows the pot calling the kettle black.
> This all just this falls back into the clucking hen thing, talking to much thing.. I really don’t know what lead you to think the dog jumped to look for a “suspect?” with your tactical explanation of an useless application. Ah maybe we were just doing some harness work? And for the record everything I do with my dog other than a get away, sit and wait is just as useless for application as any competition is. I don’t presently need any of it. I really have no need to track a “dangerous suspect”. The pot calling the kettle black.. man you really must feel the need to dig for anything you can get.
> 
> I suppose the tracking Greyhound is impressive. Not having been there, it's impossible to know if the dog actually followed the path or happened upon the camera man, but I have to assume, either way, the dog knew what he was looking for and found it.
> Your right I faked that one too
> 
> I'll have to find some unique training areas that afford me the ability to film some tracks at a distance and run my dog off leash and let you see how she works. I'll also try to find some areas and replicate what I see in your videos to prove my competition dog can do whatever you consider to be useful tasks. Not that I really think the things you've shown are all useful ...but they look like fun and I do get bored with competition training now and again. I'll also try to film some other, more practical applications for a dog trained to do protection/agility/obedience/detection ...just to show her versatility.
> Dont do it for me I really don’t need to see “how she works” . I really believe your dog can do anything mine was doing because mine does nothing special. You really need to prove nothing to me
> 
> I think I've answered all the mail from your post. Let me know if I've missed something.
> 
> 
> 
> I watched a few minutes of one of the videos you posted the one where you and the dog got in a car and did a few bites from the window. (the dog did the biting) Anyway I don’t know much about sports at all but I will say the few minutes I watched you and your dog look great in a sense that you are accomplishing what you want to. And that is what it is all about, getting the dog to do what you want when you what with control, real nice work. It doesn’t really matter what it is the dog is doing. Ill never understand the attention heeling but what the hell should you care if I do or don’t. (but you really should care what Don thinks! Pssssha sucker)
> When Thomas closes his eyes at night he wishes he was you and his dog was 20 pounds lighter
> If you been around a while you would have likely read me stating that the dog in the video was my first dog and is a bit soft and I made mistakes, one being a bit of unfair corrections. I never claimed to be a trainer or if you look really ever gave anyone any dog advice, I just have a few thousand useless posts.
Click to expand...


----------



## Chris McDonald

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Oh, and Chris ...now that I've posted some of my videos ...if you don't feel attention heeling is necessary, why don't you post a video of you and your dog doing a few of the routines my dog and I did for obedience? No collars, no leashes, brand new location (of course I'd never know).
> 
> I know you'll say it's stupid and impractical ...but before you knock what I do, why don't you walk a mile in my shoes?


Don’t hold your breath. The next time I do breakout a camera I will take off his collars. I have worked him a good bit without them in the past and there is no difference in his responses. I know, I know you don’t have to believe it. We have gone to several LE training sessions where everything was new and he did very well. There is even a good bit of video from one or two that im not allowed to have. Some place there is a video of him running out of a cloud of cover smoke after taking a bite with one of the big cans of smoke in his mouth going off. I don’t know what the hell he was thinking 
And no I won’t wear your shoes. If the heels are high enough you might want to ask Ben though


----------



## Ken Seminatore

Don Turnipseed said:


> Training and dogs? Heeling has a specific purpose. Take your dog out for a walk, on or off leash, and be able to enjoy the walk. Who wants to walk with a dog pressed up against your leg staring up at you for 5 miles. No one I know. It is insane but that is peoples idea of a good heel today. It is good for nothing outside of a ring but people have lost track of it's original purpose
> 
> Same thing with bite sports. A good solid dog doesn't earn points. Everything has become about flash, not good dogs. What is the matter with this picture???? Flash doesn't make good dogs.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My number one reason for training in a bunch of different venues (beyond that it's fun) is not to be extremely advanced or competitive. I don't have time for that. It's so I can understand when performance clients tell me things like "my dog is having trouble with the A frame when she didn't use to" or "I think my dog might have a shoulder injury from lure coursing.
> Why don’t you tell them the truth that you don’t know and you’re not qualified your just a vet?
> 
> PS...Ironically, you actually have seen that "hunting guy" in a video before, you just didn't know it. Ponder that one for a while... :-k


 Ya, where? Where id see you hunting guy? I don’t want to ponder anymore


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> I'll reply to this one post and ignore the other 3?
> There was no editing by me. The dog failed the food refusal both days so that's what you see. Same for the change of position. That was the 1st time he'd been worked in almost
> three weeks because of some recurring back problems I had.
> I had a cortisone shot into my lower spine a couple of weeks ago and am on Vicodin 3x a day. He was looking for a tug reward at 6:10. He gets a reward in training most of the time.
> I pet him a lot between exercises because it's allowed and as a reward since there is no tugs and no collar or leash in a Mondio Ring trial. You have legitimate criticisms of the trial
> video. Most of the problems I was aware of and have worked to fix. We'll see what happens at the next trial.
> 
> Your dog looks real good on the agility video and bites good with nothing but you and a couple of decoys. Lets see him on
> a trial field with no collar or leash, no rewards (except petting or verbal praise) between exercises and up to 10 people plus other distractions on the field. Not to mention another 30 spectators.


 
You must be going for the old handicapped sympathy vote here Thomas. That’s low, real low. 
I really don’t know what an injection 3 a few weeks ago has to do with any of this. I been paralyzed on my right side, had a few spine surgeries, a bit of titanium in my, more injections and other procedures than I can count and for someone who prided themselves on never doing recreational drugs I popped my share of those nasty pills. Don’t know what the hell it has to do with your dog not liking you? And my dog gets no reward other than the satisfaction of pleasing me… makes you sick eh. 
My problem with your performance is not the performance its you. It proved to me what I thought for the past two years.. the emperor has no clothes. Don’t worry guys like you bounce right back; I bet your back to being the ignorant internet dog police in no time.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Ariel Peldunas said:


> ...but before you knock what I do, why don't you walk a mile in my shoes?


 
yeah Chris borrow a pair of Ariel's shoes put them on and walk for a mile in them if your man enough - please post the video of it.

i hate metaphors


----------



## Chris McDonald

Peter Cavallaro said:


> yeah Chris borrow a pair of Ariel's shoes put them on and walk for a mile in them if your man enough - please post the video of it.
> 
> i hate metaphors


Ah man, Pete I think I just used one of those metaphor things in the post above yours about an emperor or something. Man and I never use them either, ah that sucks. I know if you knew I used one you wouldn’t have said that though so it’s cool. Although I think I used mine better than she used hers, I mean why would I want to walk in her shoes? I don’t get it? And if I did walk in her shoes with her dog next to me would it be staring up at me all weird like? Id rather it looking for.. you know “suspects”. I bet id look good in heels though, I got real bad chicken legs and I think it would really emphasize them. I really want to wear a dress too! I mean if im gona do it im going big 
And you forgot a few capitals so I really don’t know if I was able to understand what you said and you must be kinda stupid or at least a little bit slow. Lets wait till Thomas lets us know what you are, as long as his bad back allows him to read the computer soon. Dope up Thomas we need your input on how stupid Peter is


----------



## vicki dickey

I totally agree about the heeling. The poor dog is suppose to stare up at you and how in the world is it suppose to see where he is going-would you want to walk like that? And yet to get the better score I have been trying to get Zak to focus. Its the same in the horse world. An AQHA Western Pleasure horse use to have a natural gait and now they want the lope so slow that the horse looks ridciulous going down the rail. The sad thing is what is done to the animals to get that desired "look" that humans have thought up. Makes me think that maybe that focused heeling isnt all that great after all. Don you gave me something to think about.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Chris McDonald said:


> understand what you said and you must be kinda stupid *or* at least a little bit slow.
> 
> *both actually*
> 
> Lets wait till Thomas lets us know what you are,
> 
> *that would be cool*
> 
> *BTW i have been informed that the shoes thing is not a metaphor its a something else - some big word*
> .


----------



## Chris McDonald

A bigger word than metaphor, wow that must have been a smart person that told you that


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Chris McDonald said:


> A bigger word than metaphor, wow that must have been a smart person that told you that


 
well smart like people that have their dog walking beside them like they are looking out for treed possums is smart


kinda wondered now that i'm working through my SG course if some guy was waiting around the corner with a baseball bat aimed at my head would i want my dog heeling beside me looking at the stars or fanning out in front - jus askin


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I watched a few minutes of one of the videos you posted the one where you and the dog got in a car and did a few bites from the window. (the dog did the biting) Anyway I don’t know much about sports at all but I will say the few minutes I watched you and your dog look great in a sense that you are accomplishing what you want to. And that is what it is all about, getting the dog to do what you want when you what with control, real nice work. It doesn’t really matter what it is the dog is doing. Ill never understand the attention heeling but what the hell should you care if I do or don’t. (but you really should care what Don thinks! Pssssha sucker)
> When Thomas closes his eyes at night he wishes he was you and his dog was 20 pounds lighter
> If you been around a while you would have likely read me stating that the dog in the video was my first dog and is a bit soft and I made mistakes, one being a bit of unfair corrections. I never claimed to be a trainer or if you look really ever gave anyone any dog advice, I just have a few thousand useless posts.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris,
> 
> I've argued with enough men to know that once the name calling and "I know you are but what am I" talk starts, they've pretty much run out of valid arguments.
> 
> You don't like an attention heel. Fine. Don't use one. I said they weren't all that practical outside of competition. You don't like that competition is judged based upon correctness and picture. Fine. Don't compete. A dog that is motivated to bite and who bites confidently is going to be tempted to bite. You've admitted your dog in the video is soft and I can see he doesn't have as much motivation to bite as other dogs I've seen. Not saying he looked bad or weak or anything ...just not as driven and motivated as other dogs out there. So, it's probably a lot easier for you to keep him obedient around decoy pressure than it would be with a stronger dog. I like to compete. I like to score well. That's why I teach an attention heel. I am positive I would score higher with attention than without. But, I know I'm kicking a dead horse (yet another metaphor). You don't like an attention heel. I do for competition. We disagree.
> 
> I like how you call everyone out to post videos, bash the people who do post them and then, when you realize there's not much to bash in mine, you just say what she's doing doesn't matter (after only watching part of one video). Obviously, you were just looking for things to criticize.
> 
> As far as the video of the dog jumping off the bridge ...I know you were sending him into the water to look for the suspect because I can hear what you're saying in the video. You can do whatever the heck you want with the dog. It's your dog. My point is how can you call what other people do pointless when you're doing absolutely pointless things with your own dog? Clearly, your only purpose on this forum is to argue. But I enjoy arguing, too, so I will allow it to continue by responding. You can decide when you've had enough and stop replying (or the moderators can decide this thread has become pointless).
> 
> And the "clucking hen" business. Just because I've been fairly silent on the forum doesn't mean I haven't been actively reading what's been posted. If you look, I've been a member just 5 months less than you. I didn't know you had to run your mouth to be considered an active member. Reading is also an activity.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

vicki dickey said:


> I totally agree about the heeling. The poor dog is suppose to stare up at you and how in the world is it suppose to see where he is going-would you want to walk like that? And yet to get the better score I have been trying to get Zak to focus. Its the same in the horse world. An AQHA Western Pleasure horse use to have a natural gait and now they want the lope so slow that the horse looks ridciulous going down the rail. The sad thing is what is done to the animals to get that desired "look" that humans have thought up. Makes me think that maybe that focused heeling isnt all that great after all. Don you gave me something to think about.


Vicki - I agree that an attention heel is unnatural and useless on a daily basis and for practical applications. But, if you are indeed competing in competition obedience, why are you doing it in the first place? Do you think the dog cares if it has ribbons and titles? Aren't you doing it because you want to, not the dog? And if you're actually doing it to be competitive, why wouldn't you want to score well? If you don't like that an attention heel is unnatural and feel it's not fair to the dog, don't teach it. But don't expect to score as high as those that do teach it. No one is forcing owners to show their dogs or horses. Certain competitions expect certain pictures so we train for that. If you don't like it, do something else. But remember, you are the one choosing to train your dog for a certain purpose. I try to stick with what my dogs are good at and what they enjoy doing. My dog is obviously having a good time on the field and she is obedient because she knows there are consequences to behavior, both good and bad. I know, because of her breed and nature, she needs a job, so I have trained her to do things that provide a constructive outlet for both of us. But if I competition is one of the things I choose, why not do it as well as I can?


----------



## Sara Waters

vicki dickey said:


> I totally agree about the heeling. The poor dog is suppose to stare up at you and how in the world is it suppose to see where he is going-would you want to walk like that? And yet to get the better score I have been trying to get Zak to focus. Its the same in the horse world. An AQHA Western Pleasure horse use to have a natural gait and now they want the lope so slow that the horse looks ridciulous going down the rail. The sad thing is what is done to the animals to get that desired "look" that humans have thought up. Makes me think that maybe that focused heeling isnt all that great after all. Don you gave me something to think about.


 
I dont think the dog is supposed to see where it is going - just tuned into the handlers body and cues.

I really dislike the stargazing heel, and a few of the old retired obedience folk dont like it much either. I like a dog that is attentive on you in competition but not looking so unnatural. Over here from the bit of obedience I have done the judges dont appear to favour it either way and I have seen some 200 scores without the head pointed to the heavens, just a nice attentive beautifully postioned dog, working fluidly and naturally.

Anyway the top obedience folk I know dont generally walk their dogs in that ridiculous position when they are out and about.

As to sport in general, who cares, surely there are plenty of real working dogs out there doing herding, police work, customs work, feral pig hunting, guide dogs etc. I know people who breed what they want for hunting pigs, herding livestock etc and dont even know or care that sports exist


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm kicking a dead horse (yet *another metaphor*).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> actually its not, its that something else word like the shoes/miles thing.
> 
> 
> jus sayin so don't get all bustin my butt about it
Click to expand...


----------



## Chris McDonald

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chris,
> 
> As far as the video of the dog jumping off the bridge ...I know you were sending him into the water to look for the suspect because I can hear what you're saying in the video. You can do whatever the heck you want with the dog. It's your dog. My point is how can you call what other people do pointless when you're doing absolutely pointless things with your own dog? Clearly, your only purpose on this forum is to argue. But I enjoy arguing, too, so I will allow it to continue by responding. You can decide when you've had enough and stop replying (or the moderators can decide this thread has become pointless).
> 
> At what time am I talking about looking for someone when he jumps in the water? Im telling you your nuts he was just jumping in. You must be hearing things. And the word suspect sounds real corny? Is it a word used in sport where did you come up with suspect? And who is arguing?
Click to expand...


----------



## Guest

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Vicki - I agree that an attention heel is unnatural and useless on a daily basis and for practical applications. But, if you are indeed competing in competition obedience, why are you doing it in the first place? Do you think the dog cares if it has ribbons and titles? Aren't you doing it because you want to, not the dog? And if you're actually doing it to be competitive, why wouldn't you want to score well? If you don't like that an attention heel is unnatural and feel it's not fair to the dog, don't teach it. But don't expect to score as high as those that do teach it. No one is forcing owners to show their dogs or horses. Certain competitions expect certain pictures so we train for that. If you don't like it, do something else. But remember, you are the one choosing to train your dog for a certain purpose. I try to stick with what my dogs are good at and what they enjoy doing. My dog is obviously having a good time on the field and she is obedient because she knows there are consequences to behavior, both good and bad. I know, because of her breed and nature, she needs a job, so I have trained her to do things that provide a constructive outlet for both of us. But_* if I competition is one of the things I choose, why not do it as well as I can*_?


Whatever it is, be the best or strive for it! Too bad more people didn't think this way....in life in general as well...


----------



## Chris McDonald

Sara Waters said:


> I dont think the dog is supposed to see where it is going -
> 
> This is the statement of the night, there is nothing left to say after this. im out


----------



## Sara Waters

Jody Butler said:


> Whatever it is, be the best or strive for it! Too bad more people didn't think this way....in life in general as well...


Depends on the consequences and what being the best entails. I am sure many people breeding dogs for the showring feel the same way with some bad consquences for some breeds. Having competed in top level competition (not in the dog world) there can definitely be an ugly side to striving to be the best at all costs.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Sara Waters said:


> Depends on the consequences and what being the best entails. I am sure many people breeding dogs for the showring feel the same way with some bad consquences for some breeds. Having competed in top level competition (not in the dog world) there can definitely be an ugly side to striving to be the best at all costs.


Agreed. But that's where ethics, common sense and integrity have to come into play. I can strive to be the best while still being fair to my dog. I do not think expecting an attention heel is unfair. I choose not to participate in something that I feel would be detrimental to my dog. And yes, there are venues that are detrimental to an animal's health or the breed overall, but there is risk of injury even when an animal is doing what it's been bred to do. Hunting bear and pigs seems to be an activity that poses a great risk to the animal. Just because it's a more natural activity, does that make it better than teaching and attention heel or an awkward gait? People are going to be stupid and do stupid things, no matter what. They are going to breed for looks when it's detrimental to an animal's health. They are going to engage the dogl in dangerous activity for fun, utility or entertainment. We just have to hope that sensible handlers/breeders remain who do the best they can for the dog and breed as a whole.


----------



## Guest

Sara Waters said:


> Depends on the consequences and what being the best entails. I am sure many people breeding dogs for the showring feel the same way with some bad consquences for some breeds. Having competed in top level competition (not in the dog world) there can definitely be an ugly side to striving to be the best at all costs.


GEEZUS, you can read into anything and post some BS, WTF? It sure beats being a LOSER!!!


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

What has competition done?

Thought I don't compete in anything, and work an avalanche dog, I would say that dog sports in general have been very helpful to me personally.

In my work control is important and needs to be balanced with drive. I am not talking about work as just the "searching" part. I am talking about the 99.999% of the time my dog is at work and not searching. Or getting to and from searches and so on. It is a very distraction filled environment and control is important, especially with my new dog. Not only is it important, it is tested by LE that do our examinations.

If I only had to show up for a ground search somewhere every now and again (I have worked a wilderness dog too), I could get away with a LOT less control on my dog and may choose to do so.


I have learned a lot about training methods from sport people as well. I think a lot of sport people are at the forefront of combining the best of MANY TRAINING methods to get the most out of a dog. From the use of clickers to how to deliver an effective correction with (you name the tool), dog sports are using them. 

Of course I filter and do what I think is best for me and my dog and my dog's primary purpose, but there is still learning to be had. And I love me some learnin' 

Some of the things I have learned through dog sport trainers and competitors has helped me provide possible solutions to other avalanche dog handlers in both obedience and search related issues. Sport trainers have "tools in their toolbox" I have been able to adapt for my uses. 

I would say that dogs bred for work....including competitions such as field trial for retrievers, herding for BC's, bite sports for shepherds, provide us with our best searchers in our profile. The work could be "real" or it could be "competitive", either way we get good dogs from those pools.

I find competition style ob a good way for me personally to bond with my dog, work on some control I need in my job, and use up extra energy and thinking time my dogs need. My dogs live in a cold dark box at work, so instead of just letting them out to pee, I like to train them to do stuff some of it will be useful, some of it not so much But THEY LOVE that time with me. I can't "search" them every time out of the box.

Oh and also, I just love dog training enough that I think learning new things is fun. I teach attention heeling...because.... I can. I have a separate command that means walk on whatever side of me you want, look around all you want, in a general loose heel. I don't like to over use that command either. I like to mostly walk my dogs where they can just be dogs, free of commands.

Sorry about being on topic.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Chris McDonald said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chris,
> 
> As far as the video of the dog jumping off the bridge ...I know you were sending him into the water to look for the suspect because I can hear what you're saying in the video. You can do whatever the heck you want with the dog. It's your dog. My point is how can you call what other people do pointless when you're doing absolutely pointless things with your own dog? Clearly, your only purpose on this forum is to argue. But I enjoy arguing, too, so I will allow it to continue by responding. You can decide when you've had enough and stop replying (or the moderators can decide this thread has become pointless).
> 
> At what time am I talking about looking for someone when he jumps in the water? Im telling you your nuts he was just jumping in. You must be hearing things. And the word suspect sounds real corny? Is it a word used in sport where did you come up with suspect? And who is arguing?
> 
> 
> 
> Sounded like you said "He didn't go down underneath the bridge, did he?" I took that, coupled with the fact that it looked like you were tracking someone immediately before that. I assumed, apparently incorrectly. So, I rescind what I said earlier about making the dog jump in the water to look for someone. Still stupid, but if that's not what you were doing then that's not what you were doing.
> 
> And I used suspect to mean victim/decoy/person he was searching for. I assumed you would know what I meant and I wouldn't have to list all the possible terms. Which would you prefer I use when talking about the person the dog is searching for? I use suspect because I have dealt more with police dogs when training searches.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Jennifer - thanks for an insightful, useful post. Reminds me that there was a purpose to this whole argument.


----------



## Sara Waters

Jody Butler said:


> GEEZUS, you can read into anything and post some BS, WTF? It sure beats being a LOSER!!!


Yeah whatever, just expressing my opinion as you were expressing yours. Your definition of loser could be different from mine and I dont really care to be honest.


----------



## Guest

Sara Waters said:


> Yeah whatever, just expressing my opinion as you were expressing yours. Your definition of loser could be different from mine and I dont really care to be honest.


Loser means your not WINNING


----------



## Sara Waters

Jennifer Coulter said:


> What has competition done?
> 
> Some of the things I have learned through dog sport trainers and competitors has helped me provide possible solutions to other avalanche dog handlers in both obedience and search related issues. Sport trainers have "tools in their toolbox" I have been able to adapt for my uses.
> 
> I would say that dogs bred for work....including competitions such as field trial for retrievers, herding for BC's, bite sports for shepherds, provide us with our best searchers in our profile. The work could be "real" or it could be "competitive", either way we get good dogs from those pools.
> 
> .


I agree with sport trainers having some good tools. I know sport trainers who are excellent dog handlers and trainers.

I dont entirely agree with always getting good working dogs from dogs purpose bred for trialing. The old stockmen are of the opinion that breeding Border collies for 3 sheep trialing, weakens the gene pool for the truly good working dog bred to handle thousands of sheep in tough conditions. The combinations of traits you need are often very different.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sara Waters said:


> Yeah whatever, just expressing my opinion as you were expressing yours. Your definition of loser could be different from mine and I dont really care to be honest.



You were expressing your opinion, but you don't really care to be honest. How does that work?


----------



## Sara Waters

Jody Butler said:


> Loser means your not WINNING


and winning at all costs can sometimes mean being a real loser. LOL sorry, just the way I feel. Although in competition it is nice to win.


----------



## Sara Waters

Dave Colborn said:


> You were expressing your opinion, but you don't really care to be honest. How does that work?


I dont really care what Jodys definition is just as I am sure he doesnt really care what mine is. I doubt what either of us think will really change each others opinions. Doesnt mean we cant each state our opinions.

Sometimes it is difficult to state what you mean on the internet, anyway I am sure we are by now straying of topic. LOL.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sara Waters said:


> I dont really care what Jodys definition is just as I am sure he doesnt really care what mine is. I doubt what either of us think will really change each others opinions. Doesnt mean we cant each state our opinions.
> 
> Sometimes it is difficult to state what you mean on the internet, anyway I am sure we are by now straying of topic. LOL.



Roger that. Your last post reminded me (no offense) of the scene in team america, with the old man at the bar describing three things. I won't post it, as it's vulgar. Don't know why I thought of it, but I did...

Internet discussion is trying sometimes to say the least.


----------



## Guest

dave colborn said:


> roger that. Your last post reminded me (no offense) of the scene in team america, with the old man at the bar describing three things. I won't post it, as it's vulgar. Don't know why i thought of it, but i did...
> 
> Internet discussion is trying sometimes to say the least.


 
team america f_ck yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Dave Colborn

Jody Butler said:


> team america f_ck yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



That says it all!!! I am going to find it and watch it tomorrow. Bad assed movie.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Sara Waters said:


> I agree with sport trainers having some good tools. I know sport trainers who are excellent dog handlers and trainers.
> 
> I dont entirely agree with always getting good working dogs from dogs purpose bred for trialing. The old stockmen are of the opinion that breeding Border collies for 3 sheep trialing, weakens the gene pool for the truly good working dog bred to handle thousands of sheep in tough conditions. The combinations of traits you need are often very different.


I can see that. 

I was speaking to the fact that we have more success with dogs from "competition" lines or "real working lines" than we do from dogs bred to look pretty or be pets.

_Generally_ speaking, there is a better chance that it will have the drive we are looking for if it is from "working lines" and that _includes_ "sport lines".


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> You must be going for the old handicapped sympathy vote here Thomas. That’s low, real low.
> I really don’t know what an injection 3 a few weeks ago has to do with any of this. I been paralyzed on my right side, had a few spine surgeries, a bit of titanium in my, more injections and other procedures than I can count and for someone who prided themselves on never doing recreational drugs I popped my share of those nasty pills. Don’t know what the hell it has to do with your dog not liking you? And my dog gets no reward other than the satisfaction of pleasing me… makes you sick eh.
> My problem with your performance is not the performance its you. It proved to me what I thought for the past two years.. the emperor has no clothes. Don’t worry guys like you bounce right back; I bet your back to being the ignorant internet dog police in no time.



Not going for any sympathy. Just explaining why Belatucadrus 
performance at the trial was sub par. If you think my dog doesn't like me. You obviously can't read dogs. If you think he is 20 lbs over weight. Your eye sight is in question too. Since all you post is insults. I"m not going to waste anymore time reading them. Now to find that IGNORE option


----------



## Bob Scott

Thomas Barriano said:


> Not going for any sympathy. Just explaining why Belatucadrus
> performance at the trial was sub par. If you think my dog doesn't like me. You obviously can't read dogs. If you think he is 20 lbs over weight. Your eye sight is in question too. Since all you post is insults. I"m not going to waste anymore time reading them. Now to find that IGNORE option



Thomas, just click on an individual's name. Then click on user's list and then the ignore status! :wink:
Sometimes I wish I could use that button. :lol::lol:


----------



## Sara Waters

Dave Colborn said:


> Roger that. Your last post reminded me (no offense) of the scene in team america, with the old man at the bar describing three things. I won't post it, as it's vulgar. Don't know why I thought of it, but I did...
> 
> Internet discussion is trying sometimes to say the least.


Never heard of team america LOL


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Bob Scott said:


> Thomas, just click on an individual's name. Then click on user's list and then the ignore status! :wink:
> Sometimes I wish I could use that button. :lol::lol:


Bob.

I'm trying but all I get when I click on the name is
View Public Profile
send PM 
find more posts 
view gallery uploads

Help!


----------



## Bob Scott

Thomas Barriano said:


> Bob.
> 
> I'm trying but all I get when I click on the name is
> View Public Profile
> send PM
> find more posts
> view gallery uploads
> 
> Help!




Clock on public profile first. It will be in the heavy blue border right under the name. 
"users list"


----------



## Sara Waters

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I can see that.
> 
> I was speaking to the fact that we have more success with dogs from "competition" lines or "real working lines" than we do from dogs bred to look pretty or be pets.
> 
> _Generally_ speaking, there is a better chance that it will have the drive we are looking for if it is from "working lines" and that _includes_ "sport lines".


Yes I agree if you are looking for drive. If you are looking for specific traits not usefull in the sporting scene, then it becomes more problematical. I believe that it is important to have a pool of true working dogs that will perform in the conditions required outside the sporting world. Border collies bred specifically for agility can be extremely problematical in a herding context (although not always) although working bred BCs often make extremely good agility dogs.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Bob Scott said:


> Clock on public profile first. It will be in the heavy blue border right under the name.
> "users list"


Got it now THANKS.

It seems a little like the cyber version of sticking my fingers in my ears and chanting "I can't hear you, I can't hear you" but sometimes you have to do what you have to do?


----------



## Adam Swilling

Oh my, it's been awhile since we've had a thread like this. You know, the kind where the original question gets answered and then people with no dog in the hunt (metaphor) get to yammering? Love it! I've been reading this thing for days, so I thought what the hell, I'll throw my opinion in too. 

It's simple: if you don't like the attention heel, DON'T FREAKING TRAIN IT!! But if you're in the competition ring, you better train it if you want good scores. You don't have to like it, but if you're in the ring you play by the rules and expectations of that particular sport. If you don't like it don't compete. I know the dog doesn't care about ribbons, etc., but I'm competitive enough that going out there and half-assing it won't do. When I'm on the field I don't want to get by with a minimum score, I want to crush everyone else. I want high in trial. That's me. You don't have to approve; I didn't ask. If just getting a passing score is satisfactory to you, you're setting yourself up for failure. 

Competition dogs typically have two sets of rules. One for the field and one for everywhere else. I don't tell my dogs "platz" in the house. I tell them to "go lay down". They know what both mean. And if you think dogs don't know the difference you're crazy; they do. When I take my dog to the walkway or park, I don't ask for attention as we walk; the field rules don't apply. 

You train your dogs for whatever it is that you do with them whether it be hunting, PSD, tracking, whatever. Not every exercise applies to every venue. Don't train for what you don't use. It's not rocket science.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Good points, Adam. And some dogs just do attention heeling on their own! My female Malinois is a certified therapy dog (though we don't do visits anymore) and when I was first training her to pass the CGC and TDI, I intentionally did not train her to do attention heeling because I didn't want her focusing too much on me during a visit. Well, she does anyways, even in just a walk in the woods. I'll be holding the chuck it with the ball in one arm just walking and she'll start very nice attention heeling next to me. I'm like, "stop it, you don't need to!" I tell her "free" and she'll do it anyways. She's probably seen my male Mal attention heel for a toy or tug and it's monkey see, monkey do. Crazy Mals...


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Adam Swilling said:


> Competition dogs typically have two sets of rules. One for the field and one for everywhere else. I don't tell my dogs "platz" in the house. I tell them to "go lay down". They know what both mean. And if you think dogs don't know the difference you're crazy; they do. When I take my dog to the walkway or park, I don't ask for attention as we walk; the field rules don't apply.
> 
> You train your dogs for whatever it is that you do with them whether it be hunting, PSD, tracking, whatever. Not every exercise applies to every venue. Don't train for what you don't use. It's not rocket science.


This. ^^

I train attention heeling because I can, because I like the look of it, and because my dogs enjoy it. Doesn't mean that's how they walk all the time, they have 3 different commands. One is the attention heel, another is a basic "stick with me" type of thing, basically any position within about 5 feet, and the third is a "stay in my general area" which is anything within 20-30 feet from me. Each used at different times, based on where we are and what we are doing.

I teach my dogs lots of things that have no purpose other than simply because we enjoy it. How many times in real life are they going to need to run/jump over 4 little jumps, hit a spring loaded box, grab a tennis ball, then come back over those 4 little jumps? Or run around a ring jumping jumps, running through tunnels, up and over a-frames, etc? Not very often, but we do it because it's fun, and we can. I don't own a ranch, don't have livestock of my own, but I still have multiple dogs who know how to herd. I'm not a police officer, and I don't do SAR, but I have dogs that know how to track. 

The attention heel actually does have some use in the real world, I've used it numerous times when walking through tight places such as a dog show. Makes it much easier to wind our way through a crowd of hundreds of other people and dogs if the dog is focusing on me, and staying tightly in position. No eye contact with other dogs, and no space between us for another person or dog to enter and come between us.


----------



## Keith Jenkins

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'm not really sure why it's so important to have a dog that works for solely for handler praise. Is it an ego thing (i.e. I'm more important to the dog than anything else in the world)? Is it a self imposed challenge to see how difficult you can make training? I imagine you'll probably go through a lot of dogs before you achieve this ...or accept much less than I would consider acceptable.
> 
> Yes, your dog is doing some very impressive things in the video. Could it be possible that your dog just enjoys the work just as a person or a child enjoys challenging physical activity? And if you could get better/faster/more reliable behavior out of your dog/any dog by offering rewards (not all the time - we can use a variable reward system so you don't have to have a ball, food, tug, decoy readily available), why would you be opposed to doing that? And if by providing an undesirable consequence for disobedience, you could ensure your dog didn't decide something was more valuable (chasing a cat, let's say) at the moment you needed him to do something (find your lost keys, perhaps), why would you be opposed to doing that?
> 
> I'm not so narcissistic to believe that any of my dogs love working for me more than they love working for themselves. They are opportunistic. They will do what benefits them the most. Sure, I can get them to do something they enjoy by guiding them and praising them. What I think would be interesting would be to see someone who could get their dog to do something they don't enjoy and don't want to do without using anything but praise ...EVER. Praise can never be paired with food or toys or whatever the dog might consider rewarding, so the dog will never associate and expect a primary reward after the praise. No form of anything that might be considered a correction may be used. The dog must not fear punishment or negative reinforcement. I'm not even sure if pushing the dog's butt into a sit or other means of physical manipulation should be allowed, but I guess that can be debated when someone actually thinks they can achieve this.
> 
> I need to be able to rely on my dogs and know they will perform correctly when asked. Because I have such expectations and can't just hope my dog will do what I want because I love her/him, I train them. I condition appropriate responses, reward correct behavior and correct disobedience. I don't rely on love and loyalty. I know my dogs love to work, but there are times when they would rather bite than not bite or search in one area when I need them to look somewhere else. If they trust that obedience to my command brings reward, it makes things much more efficient and less frustrating. Plus, I like my dogs to enjoy working with me and that doesn't always mean they have to feel like they are working for me. They can be independent ...a means to their own end. They just have to trust that obeying me and being attentive to my commands/body language will be beneficial. Of course, in scent work (tracking, detection, article search), I realize I must back off and allow more independence from the dogs because they must dictate how the search progresses based upon what they smell. Still, if they are distracted or clearly in the wrong area, I prefer to be able to redirect them to conserve time/energy.
> 
> I have more to say in response to attention heeling and other posts, but I haven't yet figured out how to quote multiple posts.


Excellent post! =D>


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Adam Swilling said:


> *people with no dog in the hunt (metaphor*)
> 
> Adam thats not a mteaphor either - i'm having fun with this, i will get past it eventually.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Adam Swilling said:
> 
> 
> 
> *people with no dog in the hunt (metaphor*)
> 
> Adam thats not a mteaphor either - i'm having fun with this, i will get past it eventually.
> 
> 
> 
> I think these expressions are idioms. Now we can all start using the proper terminology.
Click to expand...


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Peter Cavallaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think these expressions are idioms. *Now we can all start using the proper terminology*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> its like heeling - don't make no difference if they do or they don't but we should all strive for the ultimate picture.
Click to expand...


----------



## Adam Swilling

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Adam Swilling said:
> 
> 
> 
> *people with no dog in the hunt (metaphor*)
> 
> Adam thats not a mteaphor either - i'm having fun with this, i will get past it eventually.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! Well, excuuuuuse me! That made me laugh. One day I'll quit butchering the king's English.
Click to expand...


----------



## Adam Swilling

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Peter Cavallaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think these expressions are idioms. Now we can all start using the proper terminology.
> 
> 
> 
> Idiom. I've now committed that to memory. And, as you've probably already noticed, a lot of people like to argue over what is proper terminology, LOL. Also, for the record, I don't think I've read a single one of your posts that I didn't think was spot on.
Click to expand...


----------



## Brian Anderson

this thread has gone so far off the rails there is no bringing it back. ](*,)


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Adam Swilling said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Idiom. I've now committed that to memory. And, as you've probably already noticed, a lot of people like to argue over what is proper terminology, LOL. Also, for the record, *I don't think I've read a single one of your posts that I didn't think was spot on*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol, you would have also noticed my immpecable use of spelings, punctiation; n grammer
Click to expand...


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Brian Anderson said:


> this thread has gone so far off the rails there is no bringing it back. ](*,)


 
ahh Brian so yr against fancy heeling to then


----------



## James Downey

I just got back from training. We train right in front of the local police K9 field somtimes, as we did today. As we were finishing a police officer with his dog went to the field...focused heel all the way in. As he finished his training I asked, " why do you use a focused heel?" The police officer responded with a proud smile...."to keep his teeth off your ass. " So, I guess there lies one mans functional use of a focused heel.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ahh Brian so yr against fancy heeling to (sic) then


Et Tu Peter?

TOO (also) not to
I don't know why I keep trying to edumacate you heathens ;-)


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

why did my quote appear with "(sic)" in it??? anyone know


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Thomas Barriano said:


> Et Tu Peter?
> 
> TOO (also) not to
> I don't know why I keep trying to edumacate you *heathens* ;-)


was that a mispelt *heaven* - how long will this dribble be allowed to stand???


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> why did my quote appear with "(sic)" in it??? anyone know



It meant that the word was quoted exactly as it was in the original, even if spelled incorrectly or used wrong.
_
ahh Brian so yr against fancy heeling to (sic) then_

meant

"It should have said 'too' but I'm quoting it exactly as written."


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Peter, do you know what [sic] means?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Connie Sutherland said:


> It meant that the word was quoted exactly as it was in the original, even if spelled incorrectly or used wrong.


thomas's last post which had a quote from me - its no big thing anways, where are the post numbers?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Peter, do you know what [sic] means?


 
no


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

woow this is gettin weird, i'm seein differnt screens on the same screen - need beer


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Look on Wikipedia.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> thomas's last post which had a quote from me - its no big thing anways, where are the post numbers?


In the dark blue stripe along the top of every post. See where it says the time of the post? Now look over to the right ... a little more .... more ..... THERE! See "#236 permalink" ?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> no


It meant that the word was quoted exactly as it was in the original, even if spelled incorrectly or used wrong.
_
ahh Brian so yr against fancy heeling to (sic) then_

meant

"It should have said 'too' instead of 'to' but I'm quoting it exactly as written."




I think it's Latin for "thus." Kinda like saying "it was written thusly, wrong or right; don't blame me." :lol:


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Peter Cavallaro said:


> woow this is gettin weird, i'm seein differnt screens on the same screen - need beer


Ah, beer. Just got my paws on some Dogfish Head Punkin Ale. Waited too long and couldn't find any last year. I'm a happy gal!


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Oh, and it really is spelled "Punkin" ...so please, no corrections!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Connie Sutherland said:


> In the dark blue stripe along the top of every post. See where it says the time of the post? Now look over to the right ... a little more .... more ..... THERE! See "#236 permalink" ?


Connie, your [sic] the best. :lol:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Connie, your [sic] the best. :lol:



Misspellings don't phase [sic] me. Not even about spade [sic] dogs! (Well, maybe spaded [sic] ones. And maybe confirmation [sic] shows. :lol: )

I've had my share, too. How about _softwear_ in financial statement footnotes?  I remember the CEO saying "no, no .... programs, not bunny slippers."


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Is there really punkin (or even pumpkin) involved in making it?

That sounds kinda good!


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Oh, and it really is spelled "Punkin" ...so please, no corrections!


 
if its anything like every other US made beer then i don't envy you, great country, great people. shame about the beer. sad fact is none of ya's know any better. i do applaud a [self edit] err female, that drinks beer though :grin: even inferior US beer


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Connie Sutherland said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it really is spelled "Punkin" .../QUOTE]
> 
> Is there really punkin (or even pumpkin) involved in making it?
> 
> That sounds kinda good!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! Definitely real pumpkin, but not overwhelming. It's seasonal and sells out very quickly. The brewery that makes it has a show on TLC or A&E or one of those channels and is a pretty famous microbrewery in DE. You should try it ...if you like ales. It's a little on the stronger side.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Peter Cavallaro said:


> if its anything like every other US made beer then i don't envy you, great country, great people. shame about the beer. sad fact is none of ya's know any better. i do applaud a [self edit] err female, that drinks beer though :grin: even inferior US beer


I would certainly like to learn better, so please tip me off to some imports that I might try. I'm definitely not a connoisseur, but I believe variety is the spice of life. Dogfish Head is a microbrewery that certainly has a taste all their own. Not at all similar to most big name American beers.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

tip 1. *don't drink fosters, it is not our national beer, it is made for a foreign market as is total shitte.*

tip 2 starting with standard labels (not premium/boutique or micro-brewed will get to them later).

coopers

hell just make your own in the back shed like we all do


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Oh, and it really is spelled "Punkin" ...so please, no corrections!


Ariel

There's a small, rural unincorporated community in Lincoln County, Colorado, called Punkin Center (east of Colorado
Springs at the intersection of Highways 94 and 71
The name came from the color that the store at the crossroads was painted in 1920. I guess punkin is an acceptable alternate
spelling of pumpkin as in the punkin chunkin contest that the ale is named after.
My contribution to keeping this topic off track


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Yes! Definitely real pumpkin, but not overwhelming. It's seasonal and sells out very quickly. The brewery that makes it has a show on TLC or A&E or one of those channels and is a pretty famous microbrewery in DE. You should try it ...if you like ales. It's a little on the stronger side.


I will look for this. I have never tasted anything with pumpkin in it that I didn't like!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Connie Sutherland said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and it really is spelled "Punkin" .../QUOTE]
> 
> Is there really punkin (or even pumpkin) involved in making it?
> 
> That sounds kinda good!
> 
> 
> 
> yes both or either
> 
> http://www.dogfish.com/brews-spirits/the-brews/seasonal-brews/punkin-ale.htm
Click to expand...


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Thomas Barriano said:


> yes both or either
> 
> http://www.dogfish.com/brews-spirits/the-brews/seasonal-brews/punkin-ale.htm


A partial quote, complete with a "sic" ...... :lol:
_
Punkin Ale made it's [sic] debut as it claimed First Prize_



It sounds really good, though. Maybe good warmed in winter? Aren't some ales "mulled"? Or at least warmed?


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Connie Sutherland said:


> A partial quote, complete with a "sic" ...... :lol:
> 
> _Punkin Ale made it's [sic] debut as it claimed First Prize_
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds really good, though. Maybe good warmed in winter? Aren't some ales "mulled"? Or at least warmed?


I don't see why not! I've had spiced (and spiked), mulled apple cider. I would think this could have a similar taste ...not quite so sweet. I'm gonna stock up and try it!


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Peter Cavallaro said:


> tip 1. *don't drink fosters, it is not our national beer, it is made for a foreign market as is total shitte.*
> 
> tip 2 starting with standard labels (not premium/boutique or micro-brewed will get to them later).
> 
> coopers
> 
> hell just make your own in the back shed like we all do


There's too much crap in my shed to make beer! But I'll keep my eyes open for Coopers.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I don't see why not! I've had spiced (and spiked), mulled apple cider. I would think this could have a similar taste ...not quite so sweet. I'm gonna stock up and try it!


I am too. I already added it to my shopping list! :lol: I hope I can find it.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Thomas Barriano said:


> .... My contribution to keeping this topic off track



I know, huh? Talk about drifting ..... :lol:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Brian Anderson said:


> this thread has gone so far off the rails there is no bringing it back. ](*,)


Sure there is! 




James Downey said:


> I just got back from training. We train right in front of the local police K9 field somtimes, as we did today. As we were finishing a police officer with his dog went to the field...focused heel all the way in. As he finished his training I asked, " why do you use a focused heel?" The police officer responded with a proud smile...."to keep his teeth off your ass. " So, I guess there lies one mans functional use of a focused heel.


----------



## Bob Scott

Kadi said

"I train attention heeling because I can, because I like the look of it, and because my dogs enjoy it."

Kadi, that answer was to uncomplicated and simple for a discussion like this. 
It just makes waaay to much sense! ;-)


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Ariel Peldunas said:


> There's too much crap in my shed to make beer! But I'll keep my eyes open for Coopers.


 
lose the crap, make beer - duh


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

on topic; - focused heeling is gay

off topic; can one "self-sic" or can one only sic another author


----------



## Dave Colborn

Peter Cavallaro said:


> on topic; - focused heeling is gay and I want to learn both/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Sorry Pete. I may have added a few words for you.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Here's something else you can teach your dog that has almost no practical purpose 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jaA4k4SdTg


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> on topic; - focused heeling is gay
> 
> >Only if you're doing Schutzhund and NOT if it's to keep your dog's "teeth off someones ass"
> 
> off topic; can one "self-sic" or can one only sic another author
> 
> >only another author. Sic means quoting something exactly as
> >it was written, even if it has a spelling or grammar error.
> >It wouldn't make any sense to not correct your own quote if
> >you knew it was wrong


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Not only does my dog know a completely useless attention heel ...she also helps support my bad habits:

http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Dave Colborn said:


> Peter Cavallaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> on topic; - focused heeling is gay and I want to learn both/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Sorry Pete. I may have added a few words for you.
> 
> 
> 
> would try most things but THAT i'm not so sure  - BTW welcome back to the thread
Click to expand...


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

"It wouldn't make any sense to not correct your own quote if
you knew it was wrong" 

would it make more sense to correct it if you knew it was right, or not correct it if you knew it was wrong.

more proof that focussed heeling is gayer than gay


----------



## Bob Scott

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Not only does my dog know a completely useless attention heel ...she also helps support my bad habits:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/alpel5748?feature=mhee



:-k......I'm thinking your dog is trying to help you break your bad habits. You said "Go get me a beer" and that was a V8 juce she brought you. :grin: :wink:


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Bob Scott said:


> :-k......I'm thinking your dog is trying to help you break your bad habits. You said "Go get me a beer" and that was a V8 juce she brought you. :grin: :wink:


See! Not only does my dog work only because she loves me, she also loves me enough to look out for my well being. Mama's no fun when she's hittin' the bottle!


----------



## Bob Scott

Ariel Peldunas said:


> See! Not only does my dog work only because she loves me, she also loves me enough to look out for my well being. Mama's no fun when she's hittin' the bottle!


Good cover! :lol::lol:


----------



## Charles Guyer

If my dog brought me a V8 after I told her to get me a beer I'd send her back to her mother's house.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> "It wouldn't make any sense to not correct your own quote if
> you knew it was wrong"
> 
> would it make more sense to correct it if you knew it was right, or not correct it if you knew it was wrong.
> 
> more proof that focussed (sic) heeling is gayer than gay


Peter

It's only confusing because you live in Australia and everything is backwards (your winter is our summer and your summer is our winter). As I told you before, focused heeling is only gay in the context of Schutzhund. Focused heeling as used in Police
K9 work is a safety measure to "keep the dog from biting your ass". There is no gayer then gay, only gay. Finally to tie it all
together, gay is thought by some to be sick, but it is never sic


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Ariel Peldunas said:


> See! Not only does my dog work only because she loves me, she also loves me enough to look out for my well being. Mama's no fun when she's hittin' the bottle!


Ariel

Nice try, but I suspect this is a trained behavior chain. The V8 is followed by the vodka and then the beer chaser. Does she mix the vodka and V8 yet or do you still have to do that yourself?


----------



## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> tip 1. *don't drink fosters, it is not our national beer, it is made for a foreign market as is total shitte.*
> 
> tip 2 starting with standard labels (not premium/boutique or micro-brewed will get to them later).
> 
> coopers
> 
> hell just make your own in the back shed like we all do


I had a bottle of Fosters gold at the weekend (they sell it cheap in the shops :smile:, we scots like cheap), anyway, it was rather alright if a mildly flavoured water is your taste. A bit stronger than water though at about 4.8%, but not that bad, | reckon it's a beer for girls starting out on beer, I'm a red wine drinker so what would I know.

The Aussies are real juice guzzlers, it's funny to hear them get snotty about beer when so long as it's cold it's ok. :lol:


----------



## Randy Allen

so competition has made............better beer?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Randy Allen said:


> so competition has made............better beer?


most definately - you need to have a good beer or three in order to able to sit through watching a foccussed heeling performance and take it as something serious. :razz:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

The Aussies are real juice guzzlers, it's funny to hear them get snotty about beer when *so long as it's cold it's ok*. :lol:

actually i have broadened my horizons thanks to you UK folk and drank that warm black stuff you consume with a spoon - not half bad to be honest. just not sure if it should be classed as food or drink?


----------



## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> The Aussies are real juice guzzlers, it's funny to hear them get snotty about beer when *so long as it's cold it's ok*. :lol:
> 
> actually i have broadened my horizons thanks to you UK folk and drank that warm black stuff you consume with a spoon - not half bad to be honest. just not sure if it should be classed as food or drink?


I can't help you out there I'm afraid, I do know you don't want to be drinking it ice cold though....prolly something to do with the weather.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

maggie fraser said:


> I can't help you out there I'm afraid, *I do know you don't want to be drinking it ice cold though....prolly something to do with the weather*.


 
i think it has more to do with viscosity and the fact you would prolly choke as it solidified in yr throat at anything under say standard room temp.


----------



## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i think it has more to do with viscosity and the fact you would prolly choke as it solidified in yr throat at anything under say standard room temp.


I don't think I would say that. It glides down the throat at room temp, start getting colder and the stuff runs thinner, so your theory about viscosity is a wee bit off I think. Funny that eh ?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

maggie fraser said:


> I don't think I would say that. It glides down the throat at room temp, start getting colder and the stuff runs thinner, so your theory about viscosity is a wee bit off I think. Funny that eh ?


really non-newtonian fluid, who'da thunk it


----------



## Doug Zaga

maggie fraser said:


> I don't think I would say that. It glides down the throat at room temp, start getting colder and the stuff runs thinner, so your theory about viscosity is a wee bit off I think. Funny that eh ?


:razz:


----------



## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> really non-newtonian fluid, who'da thunk it


The guy who drunk it :razz:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

maggie fraser said:


> The guy who drunk it :razz:


 
haha now thats funny :lol:


----------



## Randy Allen

The focused heel really does become useful if you've had one too many of those non-newtonians.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Don Turnipseed said:


> Training and dogs? Heeling has a specific purpose. Take your dog out for a walk, on or off leash, and be able to enjoy the walk. Who wants to walk with a dog pressed up against your leg staring up at you for 5 miles. No one I know. It is insane but that is peoples idea of a good heel today. It is good for nothing outside of a ring but people have lost track of it's original purpose
> 
> Same thing with bite sports. A good solid dog doesn't earn points. Everything has become about flash, not good dogs. What is the matter with this picture???? Flash doesn't make good dogs.


Well, as far as heeling goes, I use "fuss" for a schh heel, and "close" for just, be generally on my left side and basically next to me


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Randy Allen said:


> The focused heel really does become useful if you've had one too many of those non-newtonians.


 
haha - about time i made my dog useful for sumthin, heeling with a home command for those times i don't remeber where i live at and can't walk straight.


----------

