# "bring here"



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, here's a question for the board and the experts (which is why i joined). 

as part of our nightly excercise routine, i've been basically playing 2-ball w/brix, where-in i throw an object, he BAILS after it, i tell him "GOOD brix, bring it here" he comes galloping back, and either stops or spits the object about 10' away. or he tries to get the "chase me til i catch you" game going. which i DON'T play, BTW.

however, this last week i've decided that he needs to learn that when i say "bring it here", that means bring it ALL the way to ME. if he does, i throw the object, if he doesn't, i turn and walk away. game over.

here's the sticky: he'll sometimes bring it to ME (1x/3), the other 2x, he'll lie down or spit it, then when i turn around and walk away, he'll pick it up and come to me. i think i'm training him that "bring it here" means bring it when i turn and walk away  

also, if it helps, he's 8 mo. old, and i don't require him to perform a perfect "here" on this, i just require him to come within arm's reach (yes, so i can grab his collar--the longline's always BEHIND him when he comes  ).

so--help? if anyone needs more info to clarify, let me know.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That's one of the down sides to two ball. the dog wants the second one and wont bring the first all the way in. 
I teach the retrieve with back chaining.
The dumbell shouldn't be a prey item IMHO. 
I have the dog sit in front of me and I have a treat in one hand and the dumbell in the other. When ANY interest is shown in the dumbell, the dog gets a treat. It doesn't take long to develope this into the dog actually taking the dumbell in it's mouth. 
This advances to the dog bringing me the dumbell on the training field and getting a tug as a reward. 
If you continue with two ball, you need to be patient and wait till the ball is brought all the way to you before the second is tossed.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> .....i throw an object, he BAILS after it, i tell him "GOOD brix, bring it here" he comes galloping back, and either stops or spits the object about 10' away. or he tries to get the "chase me til i catch you" game going. ......


For retrieving anything I use backchain command too. The first thing I reward for is giving me the item. That's the payoff deal. Then all the rest become steps that end in the big goal -- giving me the item. (So giving me the item is taught and rewarded before going and getting it is, the focus being on that payoff step -- giving it to me.)

This came up on another board, where someone's newspaper was being picked up, but not brought all the way to the person. I suggested backchaining, or going with the dog to get the paper and rewarding for having it put in the person's hand....... then lagging behind more and more so the dog is doing the fetching but still has the goal of delivering it into the person's hand, not just picking it up.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I use the chaining technique Connie discribed AND (if it is not just for fun) a long leash to control the dog. 

Any command must be obeyed, when he gets the meaning of a command...so no fooling around, do what is told you to do.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I would brake it down into 3 exercise and then combine them later, first is you need to teach the come, that means when you said come he will come no matter what and sit in front of you, then teach the hold, that means hold anything in his mouth without chewing until you say give, then he already know the fetch, so teach a reliable hold and come and it will solve your problem, it will be a solid foundation for retrieving, this is how I taught my dog to retrieve ANYTHING I throw or send him out to pick up, here is a couple pict of him retrieving doves, have you ever see a Mal retriever? :wink: 
www.proeditproductions.com/realaudio/blacky1.JPG
www.proeditproductions.com/realaudio/blacky2.JPG


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i don't know what "backchaining" means, and correct me if i'm wrong, but does it basically mean breaking the whole process into the individual excercises like Koi said?

if so, cool, i get it. i think i'll start working w/him inside just on the "carry/hold" part. definitely need to work on the "come"--he's getting PRETTY independent-minded at times (will buy another 20' line so i get 40' total).

then, when we're outside just playing, how about this: instead of turning away, just stay where i am, and ignore him until he brings the toy? or drops it and goes on to something else on his own? or should i reel him in? this tends to result in him spitting the object. or is it even that big of a deal if we're just screwing around?

thanks for all the help, BTW! oh--i've never seen a retreiving Mal :lol: and i saw pics of a Sch3 lab yesterday, so the world's gone upside down  

if any of the above has bad ideas, let me know so i can tweak the plan. he learns REALLY fast, so i want to be careful with this.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> i don't know what "backchaining" means, and correct me if i'm wrong, but does it basically mean breaking the whole process into the individual excercises......


It means to train the end result (the payoff step) first and primarily. That is, you want the item put into your hand, so you train that. The rest are gradually-added steps added on to that (in backward steps, yes), after that payoff step is solid.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> .....i saw pics of a Sch3 lab yesterday, so the world's gone upside down  .......


Oooo! I wanna see!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yes, it's breaking it down to individual exercises only your going backwards.
The retrieve exercise on the field starts with you throwing the dumbell and finishes with the dog giving it to you. 
You don't start training it by throwing the dumbell and hoping for the best. You start by teaching the dog to take/hold/give the dumbell to you. 
Your starting at the back of the chain of events that will result in the dumbell retrieve. 
Once the dog is reliably holding/outing the dumbell, take a step back with a "bring" command. That's the next step to the chain.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not looking forward to teaching Jak the retrieve either, because he does many of the same things you mentioned (coming almost all the way to me before trying to play "keep away," and he's more than happy to run around with whatever he has, and then lay down a distance away and chew on it if I don't give chase. I've a feeling I'm going to have to use the table and teach a forced retrieve with him. That means I either have to build a table or I'll have to leave him at Club and let my TD teach it. :? 



> I teach the retrieve with back chaining.
> The dumbell shouldn't be a prey item IMHO.
> I have the dog sit in front of me and I have a treat in one hand and the dumbell in the other. When ANY interest is shown in the dumbell, the dog gets a treat. It doesn't take long to develope this into the dog actually taking the dumbell in it's mouth.
> This advances to the dog bringing me the dumbell on the training field and getting a tug as a reward.


Could you explain this a little more for those of us who've never trained the exercise before? IE: how do you go from the dog sitting in front of you and giving a treat for showing interest in the dumbbell to the dog bringing you the dumbbell on the training field?



Edited to say: N/M, you did it while I was typing.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Even though I do have to remind myself sometimes  , I learned a long time ago (not as long ago as Bob probably did :wink: ) that there is really no time saved by eliminating the training of individual steps. It seems time-consuming, but it's faster and easier, with a better "product" and not so much going back to clean up parts.

I like Bob's explanation: "You don't start training it by throwing the dumbell and hoping for the best."

:lol: That's it, exactly! You think through what the dog has to learn, and you teach those steps. I think backchaining can focus both you and the dog on the payoff step.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And I'm not saying that glibly. I've started over before, after really screwing up a command. Broke it down, backchained, pretended the screwup never happened, ended up with a solid command.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, 
-connie, to see pics of the Sch3 lab, go to gsdworld.com, the rainbow bridge section--this Lab just passed away (i ALWAYS tear up on this section, so generally avoid it  ), but there are some cool "Lab protection" pics of the dog.

-thanks to all (even old bob scott, WHAT a dig, Connie!!!), for the feedback. i was on the right track in my thinking then. 

-so, the next most important question: should i even make an issue of it if we're just out burning off energy? and he has PLENTY, especially with the cooler weather we've been having. i'm thinking "no", but i'm concerned that what i do when we're screwing around will affect him on the field.

how far should i let him "play", and will he distinguish (i'm sure he will, BUT...) play-time vs. work-time? am i clear as mud???


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ooopps  

the site is gsdworld.net, "in memory" "Licorice Rush Sch3, IPO3". neat, in a sad way...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

play time vs work time
It's all play time with motivational training. It's just that the dog is playing on your schedule. It does what you want because it will recieve a treat/toy/tug. Ignoring incorrect behaviour will extinguish it if it doesn't show reward.
Connie picks on us old folks!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ....Connie picks on us old folks!


Only if they are two years older than me (or, as all my sisters say, "older than dirt").


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

thanks bob for clarifying. that's kinda what i thought, which is why i was concerned in the first place.

thanks all of you for helping me make devious plans for brix's education!


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Here are some things I would look at. Does the dog naturally have a desire to go after something you have thrown and pick it up? If so, the rest should be pretty trainable. Does the dog do a reliable/accurate front recall? That is usually easy enough to train also. If you are playing the two toy game, I would change the game so the dog has to bring the toy back to your hand before he gets the second toy thrown. This might be a challenge if you imprinted the dog dropping the toy before getting to you. Then as others have said, you teach the "hold it" or "take it" command. Bob gave a good description of how he shapes that behavior motivationally. I'd use a softer object first and then move on to harder objects, and then a dumbell after the dog is getting the behavior down well. If the dog is a year or older, you can add a little compulsion if positive methods aren't working. Try telling the dog to hold it, place the object in his mouth and praise for any brief time he holds it. Then, if he starts to munch or drops the object, give him a little pop under the chin with your thumb knuckle, but only after the object has been dropped. Pick it up, place in the dog's mouth, hold his muzzle to show him you want to hold the object calmly. As he starts to hold it, calmly stroke the top of his muzzle from his nose toward his eyes and praise. Go for the dog holding for a second, release and build from there. When you release the dog, have him on leash and see if he will carry the object as you walk in a small circle. If so, you can channel the carry into a here or bring by moving backwards and calling the dog into a here/bring. 
It might be tough to teach an 8 month old puppy to hold an object because they still have a lot of puppy in them and have short attention spans. If you get to the point where the dog will sit and hold the object calmly, then take a few steps back and tell the dog to bring. You can quickly move back a step or two after giving the bring command to get the dog in drive and moving toward you.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

good ideas chip-thanks. i just get more and more from you guys.  BTW--he has enormous drive to go after a thrown object, a running person (the cat :roll: ), etc. but he wants to herd the horse. go figure....i think it's neat, myself.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

here's an update:

got rid of the "2nd ball", requiring a return TO ME for the game to continue. now, he doesn't bring the item *to hand* yet, but he DOES bring it to me , ie, to my feet, if he wants to play. we can take a walk all the way around the 2 A. perimeter with Brix carrying the *item*, but i refuse to call/beg/coax him to "bring it". 

when he does "bring it", i throw it for him immediately. am i on the right track or not? 

input??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

No reason why you can't wait him out to put the ball in your hand now. 
Just watch out that he doesn't start spitting it out when you reach for it.
With a dumbell I tap the sides of it, pull it just a bit. He can't drop it or loosen his grip till I say out. If it gets dropped I just ignore it. 
Obviously there are many other ways to do this.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, unfortunately, he already either spits it or jerks his head aside when i reach for it. so i've quit reaching for stuff he's got. which is why i'm going to get a small rope toy and start him, inside, with "hold". the backchaining method. that's my training goal for next week.

when we're outside playing, it's been working really well to just stand around, whistle, look at the clouds/birds/etc til he brings the item back to me. then (just to make the process longer :roll , he'll stand over it, just WAITING for me to try to pick it up. of course, he's MUCH quicker than i am at grabbing it, so i don't play THAT game anymore either. 

a minute or so later (i'm still checking for geese/cranes flying south), when he's distracted by a butterfly or something, i ease over and pick up the item in question. at which point he's all ears, and ready to do it again.

is this a good strategy? as i've said before, he has a long line on, but i don't have the end (i throw like a girl, but can get more than 20' out of a throw  ), it's behind him, so "reeling" doesn't work too well. i haven't tried this yet, but thought maybe trading a treat for the item could work. i'm afraid that THAT'LL just encourage him to spit the item even sooner. so i'm back to everyone's backchaining, but what to do when we're burning off energy?

more input? i know i'm dense, the light bulb will go on *sometime* (i hope). oh--one more thing that seems to be helping: the club said he was a little bit fat, so he's on a diet, so treats motivate him better. before, he was like "oh, a treat, cool. i don't know if i feel like it." now (w/1/2 C. less food/day), he's noticeably more enthusiastic. 

the sad thing is, my 2 older dogs, you CAN see their last 3 ribs, my pup has this nice layer of flesh (NOT BAD) over his--and my pet peeve is fat dogs :lol: . Brix has been on 4 C of kibble since he was 16 wks old, same food (adult), and now he needs to be cut back, at 37 wks old. 

i digress, and must go do more dishes.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don't reach for it! My open hand means I want the dog to put it right there. A dog that loves to retrieve will do this with little trouble. 
Although I did it for years, I haven't taught a forced retrieve with the last four dogs I've had. Two have been terriers that aren't natural retrievers but great prey dogs. 
This is also where the back chaining comes to play.
Teach the dog, first, to take the dumbell from your hand and hold it. The food/ball is the reward. 
Thunder will come back on a dead run and slam into my open hand with whatever I throw (unless it's a formal retrieve). He wants the game to continue.
Ursa, at almost 6 months is doing the same now.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i (duh--and i swear i'm not in any way blond, but can act like it with the best of 'em  ), finally figured out the "don't reach for it"--with you'all's help. now, this week we start with backchaining--i'll let you know about all the mistakes i make so you can help me fix them!!!!!

but it's REALLY nice weather to stand around outside, look at the moon/stars, check for wild things flying south , etc. I'm a witness 8)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> i (duh--and i swear i'm not in any way blond, but can act like it with the best of 'em  ), finally figured out the "don't reach for it"--with you'all's help. now, this week we start with backchaining--i'll let you know about all the mistakes i make so you can help me fix them!!!!!
> 
> but it's REALLY nice weather to stand around outside, look at the moon/stars, check for wild things flying south , etc. I'm a witness 8)


Backchaining is almost magic. Even just breaking down a command into its components and training each one is a huge step. :wink: But backchaining (for me) focuses on the payoff step first and doesn't let me get mired in all the stuff that precedes it. It gives clarity.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i thought i'd give an up-date on my progress (and Brix's).

as of tonight, he actually delivered a ball TO MY HAND!! this is only once out of a thousand times, BUT, he's been working up to it because i only play one-ball now; if he doesn't bring it, there's no more game.

up to now, he's been "getting" that if he tries to play "keep-away", that no longer works either (thanks, Bob, for the 'don't reach for it'), so he's been bringing it to me, eventually dropping it on the ground, and NOT "guarding" it. 

i've been requiring a basic OB command (sit, usually) after he drops the item, followed by a treat or immediately giving him a tug. things are starting to come together better: he's much more interested in his favorite treat (liver), because he's a little hungry, plus i'm "getting" how to break things down into littler increments in training, plus i'm starting to catch on to how to use his drive for his tug/burlap/ball on a string to motivate him to perform. 

i put all 3 of the above together tonight while working on his "by-heel" (assume the basic position): using liver, "by-heel", do a quarter-turn, if position's maintained, no treat, another quarter-turn, if position's maintained, release Right Away, throw ball. so, it's clumsy, but again--coming together. the third turn is the killer so far--he'll maintain 2, the third is what we're really working on. and he's getting it!!

i finally got a little rope-toy to start working on the "hold" command today, so, we start some of that tomorrow. it's cool how things are starting to become clearer to me, and to brix. that's why i started this adventure


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

There is nothing cooler than seeing a dog (and a handler :wink: ) making that kind of progress! 8) 

Good for you both! =D>


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Always cool when the lightbulbs goes on in a dog AND a handler! :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie, I dittoed you without even knowing it. :lol: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, I have been sitting here kind of giggling like a moron....... :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hey! I resemble that remark! :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ann freier said:


> i thought i'd give an up-date on my progress (and Brix's).
> 
> as of tonight, he actually delivered a ball TO MY HAND!! this is only once out of a thousand times, BUT, he's been working up to it because i only play one-ball now; if he doesn't bring it, there's no more game.
> 
> ...


Ann, I did a little re-reading before I hit the sack and something else jumped out at me.
When you do the "by-heel" exercise, or any exercise, always remember to RANDOMLY reward after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ANY number. 
Otherwise the dog will start believing that nothing is comming till the 3rd, 4th, whatever repitition. 
As in heeling, my dog knows that the tug will appear at any time. I may reward him for just a straight basic position, the very first step, or ten steps, or maybe not till 40-50 paces, but he knows it WILL come!
Just as a compulsion trained dog has to always believe that a correction can be given at any time, the motivational trained dog has to believe that a reward is always "just the next move". 
The random reward also builds intensity in the dog because it's always expecting something great to appear. 
RANDOME REWARD! :wink:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i figured out the random reward when he was just still little (like 12 wks old when i started random)--that REALLY works! and i *think* that's why the 2nd quarter turn is good (he's anticipating the reward he got for assuming the first basic--and i don't want to stop that one just yet, he's still learning), and the 3rd isn't. he didn't get the treat on #2....so, when he doesn't perform on #3, i break, walk around a bit (ignoring him), then start over.

is this correct? Bob, should i perhaps not reward the initial "by-heel" ? when he gets it right? then go to a quarter turn? at this point, i'm still working on initial, correct positioning.... :?: 

i think what's been the most different here is i'm really practicing NILIF--he basically doesn't even get a pat on the head without performing a nice sit, at least. that is HARD, BTW--it's just so automatic for me to pat/stroke/lay a hand on him when he's near me (and he ALWAYS is if he's inside).

also, Bob, i've been really practicing NILIF when we're outside. going from 2-ball to 1-ball; i always have at least one high-value treat/toy on my person at all times, really trying to practice the "play-time = learning-time" philosophy. it IS working, though Brix isn't too wild about it at times :lol: poor thing, he has an evil :evil: mistress who requires him to do more than just screw around  

it's coming together slowly but surely. now all we need is to get to training week after, we'll see if he's not so tied-at-the-hip when it's time to play w/TD. but he'll certainly benefit from doing a little OB w/distractions! 

this forum ROCKS


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If your still working on correct positioning then do that by itself. 
You can always give him a sit command then YOU go into correct position in order to work the 1/4 turns. 
As it is, your trying to work on two exercises at the same time. Correct initial position and 1/4 turns. Constantly working two exercises together can also creat anticipation in the dog. Kinda like teaching the down from a sit. You tell the dog to sit and he goes down before the down command because he knows that's comming next. Make sense?
Break everything down into as many behaviours as you can. When you get them all right, they fall in place like legos.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There was a Lab and a Chessie the had Schit 3 in the 80's. I think they are both in Susan Barwigs book.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There was a Lab and a Chessie the had Schit 3 in the 80's. I think they are both in Susan Barwigs book.


Yep, they were, that Chessie in particular had all kinds of titles, if I remember correctly (UD, Sch, TDs, etc). Pretty impressive. I think the handler was a doctor of some type.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

uuummmm--i'm not sure where jeff and woody came from (in more ways than one  ), but Bob, I gotcha!

would this be an example of a newbie going too fast, or too stupid, or both?  i'll be going w/your suggestion tomorrow. THANKS!!! gotta keep it simple, but i never realized how simple it could get (i ALWAYS over-think).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> .......would this be an example of a newbie going too fast, or too stupid, or both?  i'll be going w/your suggestion tomorrow. THANKS!!! gotta keep it simple, but i never realized how simple it could get (i ALWAYS over-think).


Well, with ME, it's generally a matter of getting too complicated! :lol: 

If I can remember that every single command has small pieces and that every small piece is simple (if it isn't, there are smaller pieces and I haven't broken it down enough yet), I do a lot better..... and so do the dogs!

I think I have that over-think disorder too.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ann, we all want it right now. Normal for anyone training. :wink: 
Jeff and Woody. That's Janet Birk's dog Jason. Thought to be the most titled Chessie in the history of the breed. 
Just WTH are you two up to anyway? :lol: :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Ann, we all want it right now. Normal for anyone training. :wink:
> Jeff and Woody. That's Janet Birk's dog Jason. Thought to be the most titled Chessie in the history of the breed.
> Just WTH are you two up to anyway? :lol: :lol:


I have a semi-photographic memory for stuff that will never make me money. Put down your damn book, cheater. :lol:

Jeff and I are flip sides of the same coin. If that coin was split in half and put on two different planets. But sooner or later orbits align.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> ............Jeff and I are flip sides of the same coin. If that coin was split in half and put on two different planets. ......


Ooooooo! What a good idea!!! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> ....Put down your damn book, cheater. :lol:.


If you ever have a long email or PM chat with Bob about titles, champions, or lines in general, you'll know the book is in his head. :lol: :lol:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

jeff-there's a sch 3 lab that just passed away, too, i posted about it on the *other* topic i started in the training discussion. i'd heard about the chessie (vaguely), but i can believe it--the ones i've known have been spooky dogs; i never turned my back on them in the kennel, anyway :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Woody, :roll:  I have to admit to using the book for the specifics on that one but I'm like you. Yours and Jeff's comments triggerd a picture in my head of that dog.
I've got a nice little library of dog stuff right behind me as I sit. Often times something said here will turn on that mental video and I can go right to it.
As you said, nothing I've ever been able to use in the real world. 
Maybe I should have been a librarian! 
    :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not bringing it back is a problem. The dog is driven to go get the object, but returning it has no value. Put the dog on a flexie and work short distances. Make sure that the reward for soing so is strong enough to make it worth his time. It is a dominence thing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Janet Birk trained with a lot of people in my club. It was a constant struggle with that dog from what I was told. To cut his nails she duct taped his mouth closed. For all his power in the bitework, I am told he retrieved birds without a mark.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

jeff, you're exactly right on the dominance-i just didn't get it for a while. and the high-value reward is really doing the trick on motivating him to bring it back. his attitude has really changed in the past 2 weeks, but he'll still try it on sometimes. at which point he gets ignored, and the game stops.

that's when he'll come charging up with the item "i'm sorry, ididn't REALLY mean it, here i am, can we go again, here i am!!" it's comical--but i'm giggling as we go on inside :lol:


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