# Working bulldogs vs Traditional breeds



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

First off, I just want to say that this thread isn't intended to compare bullybreeds vs traditional breeds in regards to which is better.

I seem to be having a petty side dispute with the breeder of whom I got one of my dogs (American bulldog) from and he is publicly pointing fingers at me and the club I belong to as to why this dog isn't wowing people on the schutzhund field.

Its my dog, and I accept that he is a washout (i'm waiting for something more competitive) and its not a problem for me and my wife, the AB makes a great house dog, and we are going to give him a loving forever home. No problems there. 

However, it does bother me that someone would go out of their way and make such claims as to the methods I have entrusted in my TD. I'm just venting, but again, its not that big of a problem, i'm confident i'll be happy with a pup from Mr. Suttle. 

But, I have heard more than several times that bulldogs need to be worked differently than traditional breeds. And that really irks me because I feel like if this is true, I have a need to know everything about everything, even if its not a dog I plan to work in the future.

So... for those of you who have experience working bulldogs and traditional breeds... how differently do you have to work a bulldog?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Hey Meng,
I just went out to a club last night to train and they had 7 AB's and 1 pit bull there. The bulldogs there had average prey drive, but the better ones of the group really love to fight with the decoy. They enjoy really being "rough housed" and fought with. If the fight from the deocy stops the dogs loose interest. They are all growly and a little chewy, they thrash around like a fish out of water on the suit, but they dont let go and they do enjoy really rough work. I will agree that Bulldogs have a different style than a GSD, and different than a Mali. They are "brawlers" and they do better if you work them a little differently than you would work a Mali I think.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Meng Xiong said:


> ...
> However, it does bother me that someone would go out of their way and make such claims as to the methods I have entrusted in my TD. ...But, I have heard more than several times that bulldogs need to be worked differently than traditional breeds. And that really irks me because I feel like if this is true, I have a need to know everything about everything, even if its not a dog I plan to work in the future.
> 
> So... for those of you who have experience working bulldogs and traditional breeds... how differently do you have to work a bulldog?


 Meng, why go on the words of only one person? The breeder said... What and where did you FIRST check out this breed and the findings concluded? If a breeder told me a Poodle was the BEST herding dog, understand I will also look other places and on work boards to see and hear for myself.

I think all dogs, regardless of breed, are worked a little differently. Not all GSDs are the same, GSNs are different than Mals to work, the Bouvier is different from the BRT. Enjoy your dog and work it to the level it can, grow with it and find the "right" dog for your efforts.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

What makes the breeder say that? What are the methods your using? Is the dog out of a history of titled dogs or something? What is the breeding behind the dog? Did he tell you what you should be doing instead? How old is the dog? 

t


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Sounds to me like the breeder wants to blame the training instead of admitting the dog he bred isn't up to the task.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Your breeder seems to forget that in order to wow most sch clubs that your bulldog is going to have to be phenominal at every aspect. Most are Mal or GSD people and thats there type of dog and this is there sport. Most people will accept you and your dog but aren't easily impressed and rightfully so,this is something they've been doing for a while with a tried and true breed. Also always remember that AB's mature later but try not to use this as an excuse for poor performance. I'm not asking you the name of your breeder but what are his cridentials,titles and so forth. If he isn't, but seems like he is, one of those all my dogs will work breeders then he should realize that every dog heor she produces isn't going to be a top level dog some more than likely won't even work period. Hell even top level Mal Dutchie and GSD people expect washouts and even less. I would take what the others have said and run with that also. See if your handlers will work with the bulldog differently maybe as well. In saying all of this I am just starting as well and my breed of choice is also the American Bulldog the odds are stacked against us just learn what you can with this dog if he/she truely dosn't work out take what you learned and put it torwards your next dog.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Meng Xiong said:


> However, it does bother me that someone would go out of their way and make such claims as to the methods I have entrusted in my TD. I'm just venting, but again, its not that big of a problem, i'm confident i'll be happy with a pup from Mr. Suttle.
> 
> But, I have heard more than several times that bulldogs need to be worked differently than traditional breeds. And that really irks me because I feel like if this is true, I have a need to know everything about everything, even if its not a dog I plan to work in the future.
> 
> So... for those of you who have experience working bulldogs and traditional breeds... how differently do you have to work a bulldog?


That is a crap statement made by people who have bulldogs that are inferior or have issues. Dogs are dogs.... Sure my AB has high fight drive and good aggression but so do certain GSD's and Mals. The drives will be varied in any breed as is grips and nerve.

You go to the best trainer you can find and forget that you have an off breed. Have fun with your dog and make some progress.

Please PM who your "breeder" is I am currious.

Julie


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

> They are "brawlers" and they do better if you work them a little differently than you would work a Mali I think.


This is true. They are brawlers, as is the Boxer. Any decent helper who is training in SchH will try to get the grip full and calm and will not encourage the thrashing and trashing.

The goal in SchH is the same regardless of the breed.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Sorry, I hate making these kinds of posts, because you end up looking at it the next day and its just really cheesy and rediculous. But I guess I was venting more than anything. 


Initially, I bought this dog because I wanted a cool looking AB that could possible do some sort of dog sports. Ive learned a alot training this dog in OB. Hes a dog whos very suspicious of new people, hes not very social and doesn't like people reaching over and touching him. 

In the protection phases, once he gets rubbed with the stick over the head, he gets very defensive and loses interest in the sleeve and would rather try to bite the helper. Correct me if i'm using improper terminology, but I think hes got "low thresholds" with foward moving aggression. He is very quick to alert to anything unusual. He could be a major liability, but we work around that and hes always supervised. What makes him a great dog to have around the house is that hes a total softie and goofball within our family pack. We havn't tried proofing him, but i'm sure he'd put on a great show at the very least if someone entered the house without permision. So in that sense, it makes me feel a little bit safer if the dog is home with my wife when i'm out of town.

I think the dog is too nervy to do the Schutzhund protection phases, so we've backed off for now and have only continued his OB.

The dog doesn't have any Sch titles in its ped, just mostly weight pull titles, but the breeder is pointing fingers at me and the training for "ruining" the dog. He thinks that my TD and training methods are too hard on the dog. He also says that I probably didn't socialize the dog properly. Apparently, hes got a tree hugger type trainer who doesn't believe in corrections who gives him training advice. And as far as I know the breeder has never titled a dog in SCH.

I have full confidence in my TD since hes trained and competed internationally. So currently i'm just waiting for the right timing to get a more competitive pup and keep moving foward in training.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

you have to face it bulldogs are 

Clowndogs


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> That is a crap statement made by people who have bulldogs that are inferior or have issues. Dogs are dogs.... Sure my AB has high fight drive and good aggression but so do certain GSD's and Mals. The drives will be varied in any breed as is grips and nerve.
> 
> You go to the best trainer you can find and forget that you have an off breed. Have fun with your dog and make some progress.
> 
> ...


In addition, my thoughts are... the club I train with is made up of 99% Rottis, most of which have Sch II and IIIs, and knowing how much they love to fight, i'd figure if my AB had it in him he should just fall right in line, right?

Julie, and just so I try and prevent from perpetuating crap on the internet i'm going to withhold his name.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Barrie Kirkland said:


> you have to face it bulldogs are
> 
> Clowndogs


 
This is my clown dog







http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/103/l_3764a539d0ec4d248da85ed8b16b1f9c.jpg


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> That is a crap statement made by people who have bulldogs that are inferior or have issues. Dogs are dogs....


having lived with, and trained, both 'types' of dog, (and by bulldog, i mean pitbull/AST - not AB) i'd have to disagree with this. while to some extent dogs ARE dogs, the years of genetic selection for different traits have created different behaviors and mindsets. IMO, the differences are can be readily apparent both in the house, and on the training field.

one thing i've noticed is that many of the pitbulls i've seen are more handler soft than the furry dogs - however, that does not necessarily translate into being more soft/skitsy overall - (environmentally, sound, threatened by strange people, worried about changes in routine, etc etc) or "nervy" as the furry dog people call it. i.e. it's not unusual for a furry dog, or a rottie, or doberman to come up the leash, when corrected or frustrated by the actions of their handler, but that would be a completely unacceptable temperament display for a pitbull. does a dog's sensitivity to or unwillingness to bite it's handler make it "soft"? trainers (and training directors) unfamiliar w/these breeds may see how self-confident & physically tough they can be, and think that they will respond well to, or need, heavy handed training - some do, some absolutely do not. however, i've not personally seen a pitbull that was truly afraid of or threatened by the decoy (hackles, avoidance, ran off etc) but i've seen some furry dogs that were, while those same dogs need plenty of compulsion to work accurately for their trainer/handler. which is the harder dog? 

in my limited personal experience, it seems to me that the pitbulls work more on the premise that the sport is a game, (maybe because of their lack of defense or overt aggression) where the furries take it more personally - IMO, there can be advantages and disadvantages to working under both types of perception.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2009)

kristin tresidder said:


> having lived with, and trained, both 'types' of dog, (and by bulldog, i mean pitbull/AST - not AB) i'd have to disagree with this. while to some extent dogs ARE dogs, the years of genetic selection for different traits have created different behaviors and mindsets. IMO, the differences are can be readily apparent both in the house, and on the training field.
> 
> one thing i've noticed is that many of the pitbulls i've seen are more handler soft than the furry dogs - however, that does not necessarily translate into being more soft/skitsy overall - (environmentally, sound, threatened by strange people, worried about changes in routine, etc etc) or "nervy" as the furry dog people call it. i.e. it's not unusual for a furry dog, or a rottie, or doberman to come up the leash, when corrected or frustrated by the actions of their handler, but that would be a completely unacceptable temperament display for a pitbull. does a dog's sensitivity to or unwillingness to bite it's handler make it "soft"? trainers (and training directors) unfamiliar w/these breeds may see how self-confident & physically tough they can be, and think that they will respond well to, or need, heavy handed training - some do, some absolutely do not. however, i've not personally seen a pitbull that was truly afraid of or threatened by the decoy (hackles, avoidance, ran off etc) but i've seen some furry dogs that were, while those same dogs need plenty of compulsion to work accurately for their trainer/handler. which is the harder dog?
> 
> in my limited personal experience, it seems to me that the pitbulls work more on the premise that the sport is a game, (maybe because of their lack of defense or overt aggression) where the furries take it more personally - IMO, there can be advantages and disadvantages to working under both types of perception.


That's a nice description. I'd have to agree.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Yeah, my dog is handler sensitive, it dosn't take much for me to let him know he did something wrong. My dog is 20months old and for the most part all OB has been taught through marker training, i've just started to really use corrections.

But what about the pressure that is given from the decoy's end? How different do differing breeds have to be worked in that sense? Some of you have already said that it requires a little more "fight" to get them in tune with the engagement.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> Y eah, my dog is handler sensitive, it dosn't take much for me to let him know he did something wrong. My dog is 20months old and for the most part all OB has been taught through marker training, i've just started to really use corrections.
> 
> But what about the pressure that is given from the decoy's end? How different do differing breeds have to be worked in that sense? Some of you have already said that it requires a little more "fight" to get them in tune with the engagement.


Most of that depends on the individual dog/ lines.

t


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

> i.e. it's not unusual for a furry dog, or a rottie, or doberman to come up the leash,


Are you serious? Do you train in Sports or PPD? OMG this is a whole different thread and has been hashed and re-hashed plenty.

He asked about developing dogs with a TD/Helper not about softness or hardness or correction reactions. 



> i've not personally seen a pitbull that was truly afraid of or threatened by the decoy (hackles, avoidance, ran off etc)


Really? Must be some top of the line APT working in your club. 

Where is Jeff O?


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> He asked about developing dogs with a TD/Helper not about softness or hardness or correction reactions.


then why the comments about inferior, weak nerved dogs, if all we're talking about is how to develop a bulldog?



Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Really? Must be some top of the line APT working in your club.


actually, there is only my staf, and one AB at my personal club. of course, i don't make generalizations based strictly on my personal dogs, because that would be the epitome of bias. fortunately, i'm not the only person out there training a 'pitbull' in schutzhund 

i'm curious, since you have both types of dog, do you truly see no behavioral or personality differences between your GSD and your AB? since they were designed to be different types of dog, i'm surprised to hear that you find no differences between them.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

We are working bulldogs, mastiffs and a bull terrier along with the shepherd breeds and the work is always geared towards the dog, not the breed. My AB works like a Mal or GSD(or perhaps he is just working like a well bred American Bulldog??), nothing special up til this point has been done with him, we work at his pace.

But my Malinois and GSDs aren't thought of as normal either. My GSDs are very hard, stubborn, aggressive and slow to mature and my Mals are very clear headed, aggressive, hard to train and bring a lot of defense to their work and are great house dogs. So maybe my idea of working dogs is a bit different then the average sport person..I tend to like a less sporty dog.

This line caught my attention.."Any decent helper who is training in SchH will try to get the grip full and calm and will not encourage the thrashing and trashing."

I believe my helper is more then just decent, and he encourages the thrashing from every dog. As long as the grip isn't chewy, any head thrashing is wanted. It makes it harder for a helper to drive a dog when it is pulling back and thrashing and that is what we strive to have in all our club dogs.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> My AB works like a Mal or GSD(or perhaps he is just working like a well bred American Bulldog??), nothing special up til this point has been done with him, we work at his pace. [snip] But my Malinois and GSDs aren't thought of as normal either. My GSDs are very hard, stubborn, aggressive and slow to mature and my Mals are very clear headed, aggressive, hard to train and bring a lot of defense to their work and are great house dogs.


Man, I've got to get up to Ontario. 

Seriously though, I've gotten the impression (and been told straight out) that there are differences in training Malinois and Bulldogs (not to mention individual dogs) in OB, not to mention bite work. And these are real life trainers and agitators, not anonymous message board posts. This article was posted not too long ago; it's an oldie, but still probably has some truth to it.
http://www.uwsp.edu/PSYCH/dog/LA/distano2.htm

I am inclined to believe that just saying they are all dogs and treating them the same is probably like using one approach to teaching a class full of kids with different needs and learning types. Of course, I don't think anybody's saying to use a cookie cutter approach either. Maybe the TD's just not familiar with bully breeds. The dog's only a 20 month old male, so it's still probably not done maturing either.

Not very profound post. Sorry. Just throwing out ideas. For the OP, maybe give the dog time, or maybe a different approach is in order, not even just because it's a Bulldog but just for the individual dog. Or maybe the dog just isn't right for SchH and your breeder's being overly defensive. Hard to say over the computer. Still, there could be a lot of reasons, maybe the dog's just not ready for whatever is being thrown at it.

Regardless, I'd still say you could learn a lot from the experience, and if you're lucky maybe it matures into something special with a different approach. If you get a dog from Mike Suttle, I have heard very glowing things about him, so that could be cool. Still, give the Bulldog a chance. If nothing else, have fun with him, he's still probably kind of a pup in some ways.

-Cheers


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

> i'm curious, since you have both types of dog, do you truly see no behavioral or personality differences between your GSD and your AB? since they were designed to be different types of dog, i'm surprised to hear that you find no differences between them.
> __________________


Oh there is plenty different, just not between developing bite work for SchH (a dog is a dog all have different drive levels personalities etc). The GSD is much more clearer & gets things in about 1/4 the time. The AB's (I have had several and some didn't cut it) that I would consider using would have to have drive like a GSD and be 100% enviromentally sound, be very healthy and have good wind. My AB is a very hard dog. He will come up the leash to an unfair correction or try to take the remote out of my hands. He's not stupid but he is not as fast a thinker as the GSD. They are different, but they are both 100% working dogs and both love to please- in that aspect they are the same. They also both all kinds of differnt toys and food. I can take either one of them any where any time and they are great.

I don't buy into the excuse that the AB needs to be worked any more special than any other working dog. The TD/helper/handle should look at each dog regardless of breed hype and train it. People need to stop making excuses for their dogs and just except them train them and move on. Many AB's (and many other working dogs) are not cut out for SchH that is a fact. People breed nerve bags or super flat no prey drive pets and try to sell them to unknowing newbies. 

If a dog does not have the right working drives/temperment then except it and move on. Don't blame the fact that he is a AB or APT or what have you, he is still a dog. The breeder shouldn't tell the guy that training him ruined him. That is BS. Over correcting a good dog shouldn't kill his drive either. A good dog should recover quickly regardless of the breed.



> I believe my helper is more then just decent, and he encourages the thrashing from every dog. As long as the grip isn't chewy, any head thrashing is wanted. It makes it harder for a helper to drive a dog when it is pulling back and thrashing and that is what we strive to have in all our club dogs


Not my TD. He encourages the dog to fight in the way of stopping and pulling the sleeve back ward (no head thrashing). We work a lot on calm holding grips. 

We are all about points so having the calm grip is more important than "killing" the sleeve. It does make it harder to drive (I get that) but it also makes it harder for the dog to out correctly if he's pulled the sleeve half way around the back of the helper and the helper no longer has the strength to pull the 100# back around front let alone freeze up.

We were just talking about that last night at training. My TD was telling us about his first SchH111. The dog didn't out after the last bite. He had managed to maniplulate the sleeve around back of the trial helper and the trial helper couldn't lock up (this was before helper certification and the guy didn't have a lot of experience).


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Meng- That sucks. I have no doubts about your training or that of your TD, you really can't ask for better in the area. 

As far as APBT/ASTs go, Mien has never ran off the field or raised hackles etc. She has however, gotten more defensive with bitework no matter how in "prey" mode she is, BUT she isn't right upstairs exactly either! JME

Courtney


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Meng- That sucks. I have no doubts about your training or that of your TD, you really can't ask for better in the area.
> 
> As far as APBT/ASTs go, Mien has never ran off the field or raised hackles etc. She has however, gotten more defensive with bitework no matter how in "prey" mode she is, BUT she isn't right upstairs exactly either! JME
> 
> Courtney


Do you remember Eckarts friend, Mike, the older gentleman? Hes been working a couple of young GSD's and i'm just really in awe of how knowledgable E.S. is when I see him trouble shooting certain training problems with each dog. Hes got lots of experience and I have full trust in him.

As far as my AB, he was making a little progress in bite work and then it just took a nose dive. I'm going to give the protection stuff a break and just play around with his OB. Maybe at the very least I can put a BH on him.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

David--

I have been through many dogs to get my keepers! 

Julie Ann-

Points are important with us too, and we teach our dogs to out off moving helpers as well as stationary ones. Never had a problem(so far) with any of the dogs not outing in trial. Our dogs are not allowed to kill the sleeve or put the sleeve on the ground they must carry or hold calm, when it is slipped they must remain calm, it is only on the man where head shaking is wanted. Also full grips and NO chewing are expected.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: it's not unusual for a furry dog, or a rottie, or doberman to come up the leash

Oh bullshit. What idiots are you training with that have this problem ?? Whenever I see that shit, I inevitably see overcorrections, prongs on during aggitation and a bunch of bullshit handling errors.

Other than my idiot dog that has a timer in his head in the DOH, and has grabbed me when the time was up, and I mean grabbed and let go, I have yet to see anyone in my training group, Ann's training group, Charlie's training group, or just about all the training groups I have been in have this problem, and when I did, the handler was an idiot.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 

In the protection phases, once he gets rubbed with the stick over the head, he gets very defensive and loses interest in the sleeve and would rather try to bite the helper.

THis is one of the few breeds that are bred to bite where it is truly effective and not just a "target".

THis is what made them effective for the work they were bred for. You are fighting something as old as the breed.

Dobermann's used to do this when I was a kid. If they felt at a disadvantage when on the sleeve, they had the presence of mind to shift to a spot where they could control you.

Useless in sport, but not in the "real" world. :grin:


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 
> In the protection phases, once he gets rubbed with the stick over the head, he gets very defensive and loses interest in the sleeve and would rather try to bite the helper.
> 
> ...


 
I dont know about bulldogs coming from a background of shifting grips? Usually they bite once and hang on no matter what is happening to them........and Im not referring to sport work on this, more traditional work for the breed.

t


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Whenever I see that shit, I inevitably see overcorrections, prongs on during aggitation and a bunch of bullshit handling errors... the handler was an idiot.


handler error, idiocy, or whatever else causes the dog's reaction, the point was that those breeds can and will do that, and in most cases it's not considered a serious flaw in the dog's temperament. if a pitbull did that, it would be both really surprising, and completely incorrect; and cause question of the dog's temperament: that was the only point of the example in differences between breeds overall. of course there are trees in each forest that don't fit the mold, but we're talking generalizable differences in training right?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

How was talking about shifting grips? I dident se tha post that was Qouted. But as tracy say: NO they shuld not shitf. Dogs that shift are crap and they will ither kill them self, Other dogs ore the guy using them. One bite and then you shuld nead to break them of. That IS what bulldogs has and stil are breed to do


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> We are all about points so having the calm grip is more important than "killing" the sleeve. It does make it harder to drive (I get that) but it also makes it harder for the dog to out correctly if he's pulled the sleeve half way around the back of the helper and the helper no longer has the strength to pull the 100# back around front let alone freeze up.


I dont have an issue with the thrashing either as long as it isnt excessive, the dog doesnt adjust the grip, move on the sleeve etc, and is clear enough to out when told. The problem is this is not always so easy to get. With that said, I dont like a dog that takes the fight to the back they should always remain front and centered and I dont think the two correlate.

On bulldogs and training them different. Ive never trained anything else so I cant say other than Ive never had to dance around the dogs Im working any different from what others are doing and if I had to I usually washed em out and maybe that was premature on my part. I have had more than one dog that as a puppy had to be worked with more physical contact than just a tug flying around on a leash to really get excited and keep focus......didnt stick with training these dogs.......maybe these types are the ones that require a different type of training to come around. Cant say how they would have done as finished dogs as they didnt get that far. 

t


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I dont know about bulldogs coming from a background of shifting grips? Usually they bite once and hang on no matter what is happening to them........and Im not referring to sport work on this, more traditional work for the breed.

So they get the wrong end of a hog and don't shift for better control ?? Been hog hunting ?? Not the expert on hog hunting, but I see shifty grips to get better advantage on the suit.

Quote: How was talking about shifting grips? I dident se tha post that was Qouted. But as tracy say: NO they shuld not shitf. Dogs that shift are crap and they will ither kill them self, Other dogs ore the guy using them. One bite and then you shuld nead to break them of. That IS what bulldogs has and stil are breed to do

Read this then.

Quote: In the protection phases, once he gets rubbed with the stick over the head, he gets very defensive and loses interest in the sleeve and would rather try to bite the helper.

From this thread.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> Initially, I bought this dog because I wanted a cool looking AB that could possible do some sort of dog sports. Ive learned a alot training this dog in OB. Hes a dog whos very suspicious of new people, hes not very social and doesn't like people reaching over and touching him.
> 
> In the protection phases, once he gets rubbed with the stick over the head, he gets very defensive and loses interest in the sleeve and would rather try to bite the helper. Correct me if i'm using improper terminology, but I think hes got "low thresholds" with foward moving aggression. He is very quick to alert to anything unusual. He could be a major liability, but we work around that and hes always supervised. What makes him a great dog to have around the house is that hes a total softie and goofball within our family pack. We havn't tried proofing him, but i'm sure he'd put on a great show at the very least if someone entered the house without permision. So in that sense, it makes me feel a little bit safer if the dog is home with my wife when i'm out of town.
> 
> ...


I am not going to say anything about your TD and his training methods, some are better than others. Some deal with alternate breeds better than others, some not at all. If your TD has helped title any alternate breeds, he is probably an order of magnitude better at judging where your dog is than a breeder who has titled nothing.

I think you have the conclusion well summed up with the breeder and his tree hugger trainer. Pardon me, I don't know too many AB breeders but there are LOTS of dobe breeders who fit that same mold. They have never bred or trained even one SchH titled dog but they are the "experts" on what that POS that they bred should be capable of attaining. I have had discussions with plenty of them who claim their dogs can "do the work":^o:roll:, not that any of them can define the work or have any idea of what the dog needs internally to do the work. Dobes are not nearly the alternate breed that an AB is in this sport. I wasn't saying your dog is a POS, that is a general term called 'kennel blindness' that way too many breeders are afflicted.](*,)](*,)](*,)

I have seen that many of the alternate breeds tend to mature later and since your dog is only 20 months old, your dog may be one of them. I would keep working with him, even if you never title him you will learn a lot. Getting a SchH1 on him MAY be a bigger personal triumph than getting a SchH3 on a GSD or Mal that are bred for the sport. I know I learned a great deal on my first dog that never even was able to attain a BH, probably more than I did getting Gent to a SchH3. He was certainly less trainable and certainly didn't handle the stress of working as well. Take your time and learn what you can by taking him as far as he is able to go, then retire him. 

Use what you learned on that first dog to avoid mistakes with your second, although I suspect they will probably fairly different and thus different mistakes will be made. 

You have to remember that in Germany, the dobes, rotties, and GSDs use SchH as a breed suitability test and that lots of those pups never make SchH1, thus don't get into the gene pool. I have seen some real shitters in those breeds despite that, they usually call them 'show lines'. OOOH am I ever going to get hate mail for saying that!!!! 

If per chance he works out, you may be considered one of the 'pioneers' of that breed in the working world. There are a lot of breeds that didn't start out as one of the breeds considered suitable for SchH. The trouble with being a pioneer is that you are going to hit a lot more dead-ends than those with dogs with pedigrees full of SchH3/IPO3. The process of learning what it takes to do the work takes many roads. Some roads work better with one breed than another, only you and your TD can say you are on the correct one.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Meng Xiong said:


> Do you remember Eckarts friend, Mike, the older gentleman? Hes been working a couple of young GSD's and i'm just really in awe of how knowledgable E.S. is when I see him trouble shooting certain training problems with each dog. Hes got lots of experience and I have full trust in him.
> 
> As far as my AB, he was making a little progress in bite work and then it just took a nose dive. I'm going to give the protection stuff a break and just play around with his OB. Maybe at the very least I can put a BH on him.


Yeah, I remember him. I heard that the GSD bitch is extreme. VERY hard, VERY nice dog from what I've heard. 

Eckart is a hell of a trainer and honestly I would trust what he says Meng. His main breed is Rotties, but he knows how to read a dog of any breed. Your breeder needs to come out and watch the dog or lay off. I mean until he sees how the dog is working, he can't make a judgement. 

Courtney


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The dog doesn't have any Sch titles in its ped, just mostly weight pull titles, but the breeder is pointing fingers at me and the training for "ruining" the dog. He thinks that my TD and training methods are too hard on the dog.

Hey, out the guy here so we can make fun of him.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The dog doesn't have any Sch titles in its ped, just mostly weight pull titles, but the breeder is pointing fingers at me and the training for "ruining" the dog. He thinks that my TD and training methods are too hard on the dog.
> 
> Hey, out the guy here so we can make fun of him.


 
Oh geez... that would be too cruel. It would be like bullying the retarded kid.

But really, I think there are different levels of "trainers/handlers" and some just choose to believe only what they know within their circles. What can you do?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why does the retarded kid get an opinion ?? Out him.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Ming, if you are dead set to train with Eckart your best bet is to buy a dog from him.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: So they get the wrong end of a hog and don't shift for better control ?? Been hog hunting ??


Nope might break a nail 

However I have let a few dogs play and the natural target in each case was the ear or snout. Ive seen quite a few (not mine) over the years and again the natural target seems to be the head mostly the ear.

With that said, Im sure there are some dogs (a minority) that bite the ass end, but I would guess that would be frowned upon....ALOT. Never personally seen a dog bite the ass end....and its not something most would brag about.....couldnt tell ya. Not much room for mistakes when your fighting an animal with knives on his face. :twisted: 

Now as I already stated, not a hunter, so If one comes on and disputes everything I just said, so be it. That is just my limited personal experience with it and from those that I know that do hunt. 8-[

t


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## Tina Colwell (Jul 24, 2009)

By no means am I an expert either, but have been on my share of hunts and own a few ABs myself. No, an ass bite isn't very desirable but yes, most will "change up". It's a different playing field in the woods and it is a fight for their lives and they LOVE it. They LIVE for it. The target area isn't always presented first. lol. Those few that do sieze the opportunity to slow down their game and catch a ham, most change up as soon as possible. My house dog/personal guardian is no sport dog. Not for lack of nerve, but for abundance of civility and not seeing it as a "game". It had nothing to do with her training or lack therof. She's not ruined by any means, just not suited for obeying the rules of sport. That's ok with me, as my competition prospects are DS and coming along very nicely. Control is of the utmost importance in a personal dog of this caliber, so I agree a BH would be a great goal for your dog. :-D


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## Shane Carter (May 25, 2008)

I have Hog caught with my dogs I have done protection work. I have seen catches and done trials. 
I have seen ABs take advantage of a situation and try and gain the upper hand on a hog when the Ear bite was not accessible. My own dog bit the ear of a hog and then when he drug it down he re-targetted for the back of the neck and began to shake the hog up. This was his second time catching. He was not brought up in catching he was brought up more in Sport work so to see him do this was very interesting. Many people there said that he took it personal and this is why he switched grips. His first time catching he took the ear and just clamped down. So yes jeff I can see where you are coming from.

As fr as training an AB or other breeds differently I can say this that the maintainace of drive and the speed are 2 of the biggest factors that I have run into over the years. With keeping a clear head not ot far behind. Foundation work not only for the individual dog but also the breed of dog is crutial when talking about these 3 things. 

Keeping the drive relates a lot of times directly to the speed of the dog with the AB, CC, Dogo, Rottie etc.. that I have worked with. Also the building up pf the speed of the helper and the dogs reaction to them. I have found that many of these breeds get complacent with the work and gage how fast they need to move to do things and just do it at that speed. I liken it to working out (which many of you know I haven't done in years) but shock their system every 2 months and it will begin to pay dividends with drive and speed. Change the way you do things or change the resitance levels of the same exercise or just deny the bite and build frustration.
Being clear headed can be a big time breed to breed thing but also a drive to drive thing in my opinion because of the prey-fight-defense ratio within each individual breed and dog. 
Will a CC have the intensity to go down field and do a long bite that a Mali has NO, however a CC may have a more intense BNH since it works in defense more naturally than a Mali does. The problem with both dogs would be clear headed control how to shut off a CC in that defense mode and how to shut off a Mali with a stop attack. Yes it is all training but if you want to stop a CC from a long attack more often that not it will be easier than stopping a Mali. The same can be said of controlling a Mali in the defense work of a good BNH easier than cotrolling a CC in this exercise. OF COURSE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS BEFORE YOU ALL HAVE A HEART ATTACK.

Controlling the fight drive of the Bully breeds compared to that of a GSD can be a chore and have to be constantly maintained becasue the dogs were bred to fight other animals and not stop until submission. This goes against the Bully breeds entire nature when told to stop fighting and let go of what they are fighting with. It is a unnatural occurence to them in their heads and is a lot of times a hard thing for them to understand. Converesly the basic nature of the GSD and many herding breed dogs is to bite for a second or 2 and then let go and they do this on their own and don't have to be taught. Think about the control that an actual shepherd has on a herding dog from distance and what they use to do it with. A stick and a whistle. Now think about what the AB and bully breed dogs where bred for and what kind of control they have their dogs when doing what they where naturally bred for (there is no control at all) just go go go and we will pry you off later. OF COURSE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS BEFORE YOU ALL HAVE A HEART ATTACK. 

So yes is their differences in training different breeds yes, but there are more simularities in the training than differences because of the common goals, I/E Schutzhund, FR,MR,BR,KNPV, etc... 

These are just my opinions and experiences with the breeds I have worked with. You don't have to agree just trying to add to the conversation.

Shane/Hankdad


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Many people there said that he took it personal and this is why he switched grips. His first time catching he took the ear and just clamped down. So yes jeff I can see where you are coming from.

I think this is something that is just in their heads. It makes sense, they originally aimed for part A and the hog spun, and they got part B, then recognize this is not where I want to be and go for A or C again.

Chris Moody put his dog on the upper body, as the dog learned if he bit low, and yanked, the decoy went on his ass. It is just who they are in many cases.

With that mindset sorta bred for, as how many held on to somewhere stupid and lived, I would expect the breed to show this as a propensity.

Somewhere along the line "shifting grips" became some sort of horrible curse. It is just terminology. There are dogs out there that avoid the pressure by moving all over and if pushed more will leave. The bad one is when the pressure is not really there, and the dog is all over.

However, when a dog sees the stick as a legit threat, and you are rubbing it on his head...........well, you have to take it on an individual basis. Not knowing or more to the point not having seen the situation of how the dog was being worked, yes, the first thing you think of is thats not good.

However if the dog bites the helper in the leg, and is now able to make him respond to HIS pressure, there is merit in this action. This would be the "how much bullshit will I take threshold" LOL


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Shane Carter said:


> So yes is their differences in training different breeds yes, but there are more simularities in the training than differences because of the common goals, I/E Schutzhund, FR,MR,BR,KNPV, etc...
> 
> Shane/Hankdad


Good insight Shane.


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## Shane Carter (May 25, 2008)

Thank you, I just call them like I see them. 
I have trained plenty of off breeds and have trained plenty traditional and these are the things that I have come across more often than not, 
Shane


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Yes, and I exactly where you saw all these Bullies too. lol Your right Mike. But you know you love to get roughed up sometimes! haha I hope you make it out to train this Tues night. Congrats on the new litter! Got any slow females for me? <sheepish grin>
Diana


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Not being a trainer I was going to stay out of this but....you know how it is. There has been a couple of replys that, I think were on the money. Bulldogs and airedales have a lot in common that is different that the herders. Bulldogs and airedales do there best work when in life threatening situations. They simply are not good game players because they do not have a fear based reaction to people, or most anything else, like the herders. Both bulldogs and dales start off looking pretty fair in protection games and down the line lose interest because it is a game. When Jennifer pick up the pup the other day I told her that the hardest thing to overcome will probably be the natural inborn tendency for the airedale to stand down to a guard position when he has the person under control. They do this naturally with no training. They are smart dogs and because there is no fear, they know when they have control. I know that dales will work with you better than for you but I don't know that aspect of bulldogs. Both breeds will fight as long as the decoy continues pushing. When the dog senses he is retreating, they assume more of a guard stance. They already know they are the winner and don't understand the point system as points has nothing to do with the fact they won in their mind. These breeds are not the same as the sheperds and have to be, in my observation, brought up knowing this is a game and it is ok to play rough with people.

As far as shaking the head while biting. I see it as another piece of obedience because it is natural for most dogs to shake. Pits don't because they have massive canines. If you have ever skinned a piece of game like a hog that an airedale has had hold of, you see simple punctures in the hide because the hide moves with the shaking, take the hide off and the muscle and tissue damage inflicted on the animal would scare most people. The underlying muscle is ripped to shreds.....but all that is seen on the surface is clean puncture wounds.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Kind of brought back from the dead, but just as a little update. Just right when ive about had it and i'm about to throw in the towel on this little F&^%, things start turning around. The last couple of training sessions has been vast improvements and its progressively getting better and better each time out! 

I'm very amazed... how the light bulb turned on and his bite and OB has really improved.=D>





Don Turnipseed said:


> Both breeds will fight as long as the decoy continues pushing. When the dog senses he is retreating, they assume more of a guard stance. They already know they are the winner and don't understand the point system as points has nothing to do with the fact they won in their mind.


That is exactly what ive seen from my bulldog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Meng, I knew that when you mentioned how he acted when the decoy put the stick to his head. He fired up instead of down. Actually, I think this is why dogs like airedales and bulldogs are such clowns when having fun, they like to screw with you for laughs because there is no real fear in them.....other breeds are afraid they will piss the owner off so they never really let their hair down and just have fun. I can throw a ball for my dogs and most will look at me like I am nuts. They don't enjoy pointless shit, but, throw a hog in front of them and it is time to go to work.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Working Dobermanns*



Dan Brigham said:


> LOTS of dobe breeders who fit that same mold. They have never bred or trained even one SchH titled dog but they are the "experts" on what that POS that they bred should be capable of attaining. I have had discussions with plenty of them who claim their dogs can "do the work":^o:roll:, not that any of them can define the work or have any idea of what the dog needs internally to do the work..



Dan,

Are you trying to tell me that if my showline Dobermann finally passes his WAE on his third try, that doesn't guarantee that he will be able to title in Schutzhund and also
protect me? VBG


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Meng, I knew that when you mentioned how he acted when the decoy put the stick to his head. He fired up instead of down. Actually, I think this is why dogs like airedales and bulldogs are such clowns when having fun, they like to screw with you for laughs because there is no real fear in them.....other breeds are afraid they will piss the owner off so they never really let their hair down and just have fun. I can throw a ball for my dogs and most will look at me like I am nuts. They don't enjoy pointless shit, but, throw a hog in front of them and it is time to go to work.


I partially agree with you Don, but for my dog I think it was a combination of maturity and figuring out how to bring out whatever prey he has. Currently, hes got OK ball drives but I wish he had more. So far hes getting a strict dose of toy/ball deprevation... he only gets to play ball when its work time, and that has really aided in his focus.

I feel that I should get to choose when and what he considers to be pointless shit.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree, it is what you want. Personally, I think chasing a ball is pointless shit and never saw a point to it because they have always got the job I wanted done. Chasing a ball is just that in my mind....doesn't make them want to fight a hog any better. I guess that is why I breed what I want and leave the training to the pros.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

What I have noticed with Bulldogs is what others have mentioned, they want the fight, the struggle. They lose interest when what they have ahold of stops struggling or fighting. The object is not really what the dog wants, it is the struggle - I don't know about other bulldogs but for mine I had to teach him to hold something that was inanimate (the tug) and he doesn't run well, I have trouble running him with anything because I work him alone on a backtie and if I slip the tug I have to go unhook the line from the tree and attempt to run him then, which I am getting better at coordinating LOL but he is much better just sitting or standing and holding than trying to run him. I only run him when the game is over because otherwise an out-guard with his line not attached to anything doesn't work as well.

I taught him to hold by putting a hand under his head and stroking him along the muzzle between the eyes to calm him and praise his holding, and occassionally test his grip by giving the tug a yank. He will hold with a firm grip for several minutes even if he is laying down, and he will out and guard very nicely and fires up quickly when the game resumes. But he wants the game, he loves his tugs but it is not the object he wants, it is the fight when he is on the tug. He loves it.

I have come across people that think a dog that does not hold or carry won't bite an inanimate object or a decoy that isn't moving. With my bulldog, at least, that is not true. He will gladly bite a tug if it is not moving because he knows once he does he will get to play/fight with the tug. I did have to teach him to continue to drive in even when the tug still does not move, but he learned quickly and he gets a very deep bite and will continue pushing in until he chokes. 

I got the 24" x 6" x 4" tug from Elite K9 that I love - so does Cuda! It is a bit too big for his mouth(muzzle is not long, it is wide) but it really improved his grip and I am going to get a jambier soon.

I do agree that bulldogs and herders work differently and need to be trained differently. I do not think that it is really all that big of a deal, though. You have to understand the behavior in order to work with it. Too many people don't understand the behavior, or don't want to. I am used to working with all sorts of different temperaments and behaviors working with pets so for me it was not difficult to work with Cuda. BUT I am a bulldog person, I know bulldogs/bullies, AND I had no prior training history with sports/bitework in other breeds so I did not have to "rethink" methods or switch training styles.

I do see similarities between Cuda and Jager, but seeing as I have only had him for 2 days I am still waiting because I know he has much more to show me. What I see I like very much! Thanks again Don!


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree, it is what you want. Personally, I think chasing a ball is pointless shit and never saw a point to it because they have always got the job I wanted done. Chasing a ball is just that in my mind....doesn't make them want to fight a hog any better. I guess that is why I breed what I want and leave the training to the pros.


Yeah, I totally see where you are comming from. In my case I think its just easier to train a dog who can be easily rewarded by that of a simple object like a ball.

Its much easier than toting around a 200lb boar in your back pocket. :wink:


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

bulldogs arent as stimulated by balls in comparison to tugs... as to them they enjoy the fight on the tug, where as the ball is just dead haha
i believe this is the same for helpers....


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

No no a bulldog wit not work for a ball 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aHRp0nxdg4


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Yeah Im a little lost on this as well. I dont think its fair to lump all bulldogs together on the few you may own or have seen when the breed is SO diverse in the grand scope.

My last dog and my current dog as well as others in our "family" are VERY easily motivated and will work for food, ball, rock, voice, chomping or running up a tree whatever. I have also talked to others with the same and different lines.......

I personally dont have the patience to baby step a dog that needs "special" equipment" to motivate. Its already hard enough with a bulldog why fight it all the way? 

t


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"I personally dont have the patience to baby step a dog that needs "special" equipment" to motivate. Its already hard enough with a bulldog why fight it all the way? "

Thank you Tracey....that is precisley what I am saying. I don't care if my dogs have ball drive or any other kind of perceived drive....it is getting the job done that makes the dog. I don't need to work them up when there is some serious work that needs to be taken care of....they are always ready. Even as pups of 6 to 8 weeks, it isn't uncommon to find a couple in the creek bed that have a firm grip on each other.....just laying there because they are so tired they can't get up. They still won't let go of the other one. It isn't uncommon for them to dislocate the others shoulder.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree, it is what you want. Personally, I think chasing a ball is pointless shit and never saw a point to it because they have always got the job I wanted done. Chasing a ball is just that in my mind....doesn't make them want to fight a hog any better. I guess that is why I breed what I want and leave the training to the pros.


I think we are all in agreement that man work and hog work are two totally different activities and have different needs.

I agree that having a dog with a high desire for an object such as a ball, tug, or any toy item dosn't make a dog "want to fight a hog any better." But what I was getting at was that having a dog with a desire for a reward object makes it easier to train certain behaviors, which in my case is Schutzhund. Now the "fight" in the protection phases thats a separate deal... I guess from a training aspect (i could be totally off since I am no training expert), the protection phase alone in itself could be compared to hog work since the dog is out there "working" to satisfy its own needs. 

I can clearly see where a ball or reward item would be considered useless shit in hog work. Theres no need for it, its like... chasing the hog and biting is instant reward. Excercise over.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Meng, I don't know shit about protection games and why it is played out the way it is and I will admit that. I have spent a lot of time around dogs and it comes down to one thing, I see what I want ...or I don't. It may be me but, I have seen some dogs that that are untrained that no one will want to challenge....no one. Here is where things go south in my mind. That dog that could put anyone in it's place is taken and screwed up totally. They change his natural bite for one that looks good to someone who just thinks this looks better. He is expected to hold and not release which is normal to very few dogs, He is expected to bark on que....a certain way. What I am saying, this dogs could have done the job admirabley in hios natural state with nothing but a few simple commands. He could have controlled any situation. Now he is a POS dog simply because he wasn't flashy enough for the points and was screwed up trying to get the flash. Now people are under the impression that breeding for the flash is the way to produce good dogs. There is nothing left that is natural. Pups are picked by some ludicrus thing like "having ball drive". "That's a real winner....he chases a ball". Your dog fired up when tapped on the head. That is a good dog, screw the ball. 
There are those that think you start a hog dog in a pen with a hog. I have to wonder if they have taken leave of their senses. The dog doesn't have to hunt for the hog. The hog in the pen is an easy one which teaches the dog to be over confident thinking they are all easy. The funny part is that many of these dogs end up never doing anything but pen work. There is no way the people can teach a dog how to work a hog. They are put in the pen for the show where they can "sit" and watch.

Protection people think it is a rare dog that can control a person. I can't agree. There are a lot that can and will do it....they just don't do it in what is PC acceptable fashion. I think they are referred to as "dirty" dogs. Actually they are not dirty dogs at all. They get the job done the way that it should be done.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

tracey delin said:


> Yeah Im a little lost on this as well. I dont think its fair to lump all bulldogs together on the few you may own or have seen when the breed is SO diverse in the grand scope.
> 
> My last dog and my current dog as well as others in our "family" are VERY easily motivated and will work for food, ball, rock, voice, chomping or running up a tree whatever. I have also talked to others with the same and different lines.......
> 
> ...


That is exactly what I was thinking. I won't keep a dog that needs "special toys". 

All of my dogs are insane for anything that can possibly be played with. I had an AB once that I started in AKC ob when he was 4 months. He was great in protection but terrible in ob (very flat). My theory was that since he did a good year in flat ob that I couldn't re-train him (I tried for a couple of years). His basic foundation was flat-I really could never get him to stay in drive. I used all kinds of things but he would never stay consistant. I even had some buffalo hide that I used as a tug, a cyotte tail you name it I tried it. Then Lasher joined the family and I stopped training the flat dog (he was rehomed and is a jogging partner for an older woman).

Incidently all of my AB's have been tested on Russian Boar and they all agreed they like hog work alot \\/


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

Man bulldog folk are so touchy, you suggest something in a generalisation and they are all out ..... "not mine" 

Grow up ya fannies


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> I personally dont have the patience to baby step a dog that needs "special" equipment" to motivate.
> t


Could you elaborate what you mean by this?



Barrie Kirkland said:


> Man bulldog folk are so touchy, you suggest something in a generalisation and they are all out ..... "not mine"
> 
> Grow up ya fannies


With all respect, who or what are you refering this to?


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Tracey I am the same way, I don't like a dog that is difficult to motivate. 

I may not have been clear in my post in regards to motivation, I was more focused on the natural tendency for the bulldogs I have had/known to stop the fight when the object stops moving. It has been VERY easy to teach my dogs to reanimate the tug by driving in and continueing to fight on their own. This thread was supposed to be about the differences in training so I listed a few that I have observed.

Cuda works very very well for me. He will get excited about a pebble if I talk fast and make it exciting. He LOVES all sorts of balls, ropes, tugs... and water. He is obsessed with water so I will use the sprinkler as a reward. He works for me because I work *with* him. The reward I use depends on what I am asking and what energy I want from him. He gets more excited for some things than others and if I am focusing on him being calm I use more praise and affection, if I want him a bit more jazzed I can choose from an arsenal of things. 

If I happen to not have a toy on me I can pick up a leaf and he will want it simply because I make it interesting. 

I don't see bulldogs as difficult to motivate in a general sense but yes there are low drive bulldogs around. There are also low drive members of damn near every breed. 

What I don't get is how so many people stress working line vs show line in their herders and yet refuse to acknowlege the fact that off breeds have seperate "types" as well. Not every bulldog is the same, just as not every mal or GSD is the same. There are varying levels of drive and intensity and type in the herders and the bulldogs.

Mal people and GSD people also have the same spats.

It is my personal opinion that if breeds used to HERD(animals) can be bred to excell in bite sports(man) then a breed bred to BITE(animals) can be further developed to bite(man) in sport. It will take time but from what I have seen this breed is on the right track thanks to people like Tracey.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Good news Jen and “thank you”, sounds like his momma…….and uncle, and a few cousins in that respect . I was really referring to several posts not just yours. Of course there are bulldogs that are more inclined to disassociate when an object is “dead”, I had one myself. I just cant help but giggle a lil when generalizations are made on a breed that is so incredibly scattered there is no way you can generalize it…….they don’t even look like the same breed let alone act like it lol. So unless you’ve owned a few from different lines or seen and worked more than a handful………=;

On the motivation Meng……..well, I don’t want to be out of commission because I forgot to bring our “special” toy or certain food or a certain trainer didn’t show up or brought the wrong sleeve or what have you #-o. Not doing it, I want a dog that is very easily motivated and if anything needs to be taken down a notch not built up…..that would be MY ideal. I would also take a dog that needs to be “enlightened” but I wouldn’t deal with a dog I had to drag the drive out of. What a PIA. If you’re going to do sport with a bulldog there are going to be battles, but at least stack the odds in your favor where you can…..JMO. ](*,)

T


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Tracey, I have noticed the tendency to stop the fight in more than just bullies. You are correct, though, there are many different types of bulldogs. My first bulldog was very different from Cuda and from .. errr.. "different" lines LOL

The adult bullies I have worked with that were not my own that I used tugging as a reward, most of them let go when the tug was dead but I see it is a combination of genetics and training. These dogs were pets and were taught that when the human stops tugging the game is over. 

Here is a scenario... puppy latches onto my hand. I stop all movement in that hand and pick up a toy to redirect the pup, making the toy exciting and fast moving and keeping my hand static. In trying to prevent correcting the pup for being a pup I am essentially teaching it to let go of the not moving object and grab the moving one. So then in training with balls and tugs and other toys for biting I have to teach the pup to regrip/counter. Then as the pup matures it understands the difference in toys and body parts, some are for biting some are not.

It is simple to me why a dog would lose interest in something that is no longer moving, *especially* if something else is around that IS moving. If it isn't fighting back, what fun is it? If it is "dead" ... eat it or go find something else to "kill." These are not so much breed traits as natural traits of a predator but do seem to be stronger in some breeds (depending on lines/type etc) than others. This is either reinforced by training/handling or contradicted by training/handling. Problems come from not knowing how to get around this natural tendency and/or inexperienced training/puppy foundation.

I was very lucky with Cuda. His lines and his upbringing gave me a headstart. He hit the ground running from the day I got him.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Y'all are wondering what will trigger a well bred AB, Pit, Airedale into looking as flashy as a herder. Listen up. They are different breeds. Herders were bred to herd, the off breeds in question were bred to fight....bulls, bears....didn't matter. The Bullies and dales love a good fight. Herders on the other hand can do it but, there is always going to be an element of fear and that is why they look flashy and get the points. Fear makes them look good. Bullies and fighting dogs that are well bred, lack the fear. They love, once again, a good fight. Yes, the well bred ones do have a trigger that will make them scarey. Pain is the trigger and that is why they don't get overly excited about decoys. As I said before....they are not game players. The problem is, to actually trigger these dogs in a way they understand puts the decoy at risk because, as I also said, they don't understand your point system, winning is the name of the game. The decoy actually inflicts the pain to trigger them, forget about the sleeve, the decoy will be the target. That same pain will shut the herders down normally. The breeds were bred to be different and they are. You can't take gladiator dogs and expect them to be showy playing schutzhund.....doesn't mean they won't seriously hurt you IF they perceive a real danger. Because of this, yes, they have to be worked different to even be passable at a game they were never meant to play. Without a degree of fear....there just isn't any flash. I think all the macho stuff has to be discarded working with these breeds and make it a fun time from puppyhood that it is a game and it is OK to play it. Keep it a fun game and never try to make it serious. I could be wrong but, generally speaking, what is being done now isn't working to well....there is a reason.


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