# Old remains (bones) detection



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

After hearing about articles found in CA that appear to belong to Steve Fossett who was lost over a year ago... Does anyone train for finding old remains over a year old? I know even bones don't last long exposed to the elements, rodents... and my guess is the scent gets leached out. Just curious.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Yes, most of our bones are certainly older than one year, and we have had the opportunity to train once on 400 year old bones from an archeological dig and the dogs hit just fine. We have also trained on cremains. The dogs can differentiate human from animal.

You may think it is humans handling the bones but we put out animal bones as distractors [I am just waiting to be pulled over and get asked about the bag of deer bones in my truck] 

How long bones last depends a lot on the conditions.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Yes, most of our bones are certainly older than one year, and we have had the opportunity to train once on 400 year old bones from an archeological dig and the dogs hit just fine. We have also trained on cremains. The dogs can differentiate human from animal.
> 
> You may think it is humans handling the bones but we put out animal bones as distractors [I am just waiting to be pulled over and get asked about the bag of deer bones in my truck]
> 
> How long bones last depends a lot on the conditions.


Interesting. I'm even more impressed with their abilities. I was thinking the scent would leach out and disperse and that the dogs were used only on fresher bodies. Thanks!

So, do you think the chances of finding at least pieces of a body left out in the open for over a year are very good? Especially since they found a few articles?


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I imagine that answer has to do with what scavengers were in the area - I gather the soil would be dry ---- I think moist acid soil like our eastern swamps takes about 20 years to dissolve a skeleton, what the gators and pigs don't consume, but in the southwest they could last a long time but be scattered. 

The search for disarticulated skeletonized remains [maybe these would be mummified depending on what went on in the area is very slow and tedious and are likely to be spread across a large area due to scavengers. Of course the rumors that he may not even be out there..............

It is actually harder for most volunteer teams to get enough training on "fresh" remains than old stuff. And the dogs need that exposure too.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In China the grave yards are so crowded that every so many yrs (20, I think) the bones are dug up to make room for others. The bones are sold (on line) for doing SAR work. They are radiated or something to that effect in order to pass shipping and health regs. I've used these bones and have never seen them to create any problems with a good dog. 
When I first started out in SAR I was able to talk my wife out of her collection :-o (wimmins :roll of all our kids baby teeth. They had been soaked in bleach and rinsed when she put them up but were still excellent training aids!


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have certainly received some yellowed worm-eaten bones from the bone room. You have to specify you want SAR bones because some bones are from skeletons that have been mounted and disassembled - once I got [and returned] some vertebrae that had been patched with some sort of plastic. The plastic odor was evident when I opened the box.

One a side note- in the news they said they did find *something* in the plane from which they thought they could get DNA.

It is a terribly interesting study - you need to learn how the body breaks up under different circumstances -- disarticulation of an intact body typically follows a predictable pattern. We had an interesting search once where the head and torso were together but the arms and legs were missing. Typical pattern is the head is the first item to be carried off as it is the easiest to remove. I think most cadaver dog handlers wind up doing a LOT of reading books on forensic anthropology.


----------



## Mary Lehman (Oct 2, 2008)

Hi David. In response to your bones question, we actually have a 2nd level cadaver test that includes bones. Dog have to discriminte between human and animal bones. We also try to use area where the animal bones have been in place for some time already, i.e. no human scent on them.

Our latest experience with a search in Wyoming. Guy went missing last November, just before snowfall. We looked for him then. Had some adamant indications in 2 areas by dogs approximately 5 miles up the trail from his vehicle. Indications were sits (trained) at trees in both locations. Area was searched over and over with no luck. Search shut down for winter.

When we resumed in the spring. The area of interest was searched again, boulders the size of vehicles - HUGE. The terrain was very treacherous - I can attest as I slipped and fell last fall and ended up in the operating room for knee surgery. Anyway, foot searches just happened to see something on a ledge from above it. They sent people in from below and it was the guys car keys. HOLY COW!! Upon closer inspection, they also found his pack, wallet, shredded t-shirt and shorts and only 1 small fragment of bone. The animals surely must have been on him immediately, especially with winter coming last fall.

What we finally figured out as for indications from the dogs last fall was that he fell down into some boulders, was not visible from above. The scene travelled up the hill beneath the boulders and also down and around a cliff outcropping and deposited near a tree(s) at either spot. 

So, there wasn't much left of him after 7 months.

Mary


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Mary, Thanks for sharing your experience... Would love to see your dogs work or train sometime.

David


----------

