# Wal-Mart worker get bit by Patrol Dog



## Bryan Couch

here's the link

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/walmart-worker-mauled-police-dog/nPN8B/


if you have a bail out system you may want to watch this


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## David Frost

Don't make excuses, get the checkbook out and settle this thing. I would certainly address the issue with the makers of the bail out system and determine if they share in the liability with this situation. 

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf

Unbelievable that the remote manufacturer admitted to a possible glitch with frequency interference. Now the victim has two deep pockets to hit.


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## Meng Xiong

Oh boy... 2 deep pockets is right!


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## Jeremy Wall

As a former supervisor in a good size unit, I can say from experience that this is not an isolated incident. *The "bailout" system is a good tool. But with that said we had numerous accidental discharges over 10+ years of use of the systems. One unit we owned would inadvertently pop open the rear door at highway speed for no reason- ended up taking it out of use after the companies lack of help trouble shooting the problem. These remotes are also more easily triggered than the manufacturers would lead you to believe. To be effective the release must be positioned on the belt within easy reach during an altercation, making it prone to be triggered by bending over or coming into contact with other items on the duty belt. I personally spoke to the "customer service/ tech department" with one manufacturer after a string of accidental discharges, one of which ended similar to this incident. I explained the fault with the system and asked for a remedy, as we owned 8 of their systems. I was told similar complaints were piling up and a solution was in the works, but received nothing else to offer a solution. I engineered a safety cover from some supplies at the local home improvement store that cured the A/D problem. These systems are expensive and work well 95% of the time, but LEO needs to push the manufacturers to fix issues they all know exist with the systems. As for the poor gentlemen who was bitten, no doubt he will be justly compensated. I just wonder if the manufacturer of the popper system should not be the one paying the bill!*


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## Craig Snyder

I'm kind of curious as to some of the patrol K9 handlers thoughts on this. Having had two PPD GSD dogs myself, (both now passed on), I would be absolutley horrified if either of them had ever exited my car under any circumstance when I'm not there and bitten someone without being commanded or having a situation where I was personally in danger.

I understand that having a bailout system can trigger the dog to alert and to be looking for a threat. But what threat, that the dog was trained for, was present in this situation? A worker on a coffee break? Even if the worker ran, he wasn't directly threatening the officer, the vehicle, or the K9 and the K9 wasn't directed to hold or bite the person. I've always felt over agression, (or shoddy training), in police patrol dogs is a problem. K9's should only bite because their handler asked them to or very specific trained situations that warrant it. Not becasue they enjoy it or perceive everyone a threat.

While I know animals are animals and unexpected stuff happens, this doesn't sound like acceptable behavior to me for a trained patrol K9. 

I would have expected this K9 to enter the store and seek out his handler in the bathroom. And then guard the door from the likes of Larry Craig. His loyalty to his handler should have been paramount. Not biting the first person in sight.

Perhaps I expect too much? I'll probably be crucifed for this post but oh well...

Craig


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## will fernandez

The functions of a PPD and a PSD are very different. 

The event that happened might have been averted through training or not. It was a tragic accident that I am sure will be thoroughly analysed by the dept.


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## Meng Xiong

It could have been much worse!


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## Lisa Brazeau

Dog thought the guy was a threat?!?! What a COP OUT! HA! I am not insulting LEO's or their dogs... But let's face it, OB on a patrol dog? L.O.L! I haven't seen many (only ONE good one comes to mind). That door pops open and that dog is looking for the closest human flailing part. 

The idea of the bail-out system is good, the execution is flawed (clearly). Some of you handy K9 guys could make some $$$$ on fixing those things.


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## Kristen Cabe

You have to remember that when a LEO pops the door open on his patrol vehicle to release the dog, it isn't because he's lost and needs the dog to find him (in the restroom); it isn't to do a meet & greet with the public; it is because he needs the dog to help him apprehend a subject.


The victim's quote at the end of the story, "How could they not control their own dog in public?" is a bit dumb, IMO.


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## Craig Snyder

Kristen Cabe said:


> You have to remember that when a LEO pops the door open on his patrol vehicle to release the dog, it isn't because he's lost and needs the dog to find him (in the restroom); it isn't to do a meet & greet with the public; it is because he needs the dog to help him apprehend a subject.
> 
> 
> The victim's quote at the end of the story, "How could they not control their own dog in public?" is a bit dumb, IMO.


I kind of have the same feeling as the victim. I totally get that when the bailout is triggered the dog is "looking". What if another officer was there? What if it was during the day and it was 12 yr old kid? The dog SHOULD NOT be trained to exit and bite. It should be trained to assist it's handler where ever he is. What IF the officer DID trigger the bailout because some one came in and held up the store while he was he in the can? What if if wanted the dog in there with him? But the dog decided to bite half a dozen people on the way in and never got there.

If I hit the bailout button I'd want my k9 to come to me immediately, no questions asked, no stopping, no distractions. When he finds me, I'll give a target or he'll see from his training, (I.e. a struggle), the obvious suspect to bite.

I get it that the LE dogs are trained for different things then PPD. Mine where trained for just about everything a LE dog would do however and I would never tolerate a bite from them like this. Dogs don't have to be overly aggressive with hair triggers to be tough either. Mine would take a beating from a decoy as well as any other.

I'm surprised any K9 officers think this is acceptable behavior.


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## will fernandez

which officer said it was acceptable?

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Craig Snyder

will fernandez said:


> which officer said it was acceptable?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


No one at this site who says they are LE has actually said it is acceptable. Others above seem to believe it is acceptable. The first few posters seemed to be putting all the blame on the bailout system...and not totally incorrectly. But none seemed to indicate they had a problem with the bite other than that the city will need to pay a settlement.

It is why I specifically posed the questions to LE. But I don't think any of the respondents since have actually been LE. My personal belief is most LE officers would have a problem with it. But I haven't seen any indication of that yet here.

It almost seems like this is expected behavior of a patrol dog. 

Craig


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## Thomas Barriano

Craig Snyder said:


> It almost seems like this is expected behavior of a patrol dog.
> 
> Craig


I wonder how many times in training or a real deployment, the door popped and there wasn't a bite? Of course the dog was looking for someone to bite when the door popped duh


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## Craig Snyder

Thomas Barriano said:


> I wonder how many times in training or a real deployment, the door popped and there wasn't a bite? Of course the dog was looking for someone to bite when the door popped duh


Thanks for making my point! :smile:

Craig


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## Chuck Zang

Thomas Barriano said:


> I wonder how many times in training or a real deployment, the door popped and there wasn't a bite? Of course the dog was looking for someone to bite when the door popped duh


I would agree that some departments probably do that, and as stated, it is a bad idea.

Like David said, break out the check book; sooner rather than later.



Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2


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## will fernandez

whose expected behaviour of a patrol dog?

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Howard Knauf

will fernandez said:


> The functions of a PPD and a PSD are very different.
> 
> The event that happened might have been averted through training or not. It was a tragic accident that I am sure will be thoroughly analysed by the dept.


 A few years ago I read an article on control of the PSD regarding the patrol vehicle specifically. It was good info on how to train the dog to stay in the vehicle for situations like this very one.

The problem is that the majority of handlers only remotely open the door in an actual deployment, or while doing some sort of aggression training. Of course the dog is gonna jump out on his own, especially if he's not been taught to stay in the vehicle unless commanded to exit.

Also, (not blaming the victim because there is no video) what occurred outside? Is there no video of the outside of Walmart? I know in my city there is! If there is...where is it?

Lastly....I hate territorial aggression when it comes to the patrol vehicle. It's a pain in the ass and has caused me hearing loss. No need for all that garbage. A PSD that viciously guards his car will probably bite the nearest person that he's aggressed on for 10-15 minutes should the door inadvertantly open.


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## Chuck Zang

Howard Knauf said:


> Lastly....I hate territorial aggression when it comes to the patrol vehicle. It's a pain in the ass and has caused me hearing loss. No need for all that garbage. A PSD that viciously guards his car will probably bite the nearest person that he's aggressed on for 10-15 minutes should the door inadvertantly open.


I feel the same way. We actually worked to build that with my first partner. He would light up in anyone or anything. I believe that my trainer thought that the display would intimidate people. He, my partner, is now retired and is mellowing at home but he is still an arse in a car. 

I did not work to build the vehicle defense in my new partner. It is much more peaceful in the car these days. 

He is not nearly as defensive as my retired partner so I am hoping the car aggression does not develop. 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2


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## Craig Snyder

will fernandez said:


> whose expected behaviour of a patrol dog?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


I think most citizens would expect that if a patrol dog inadvertently got out of a patrol car for whatever reason, they should feel safe and not have to worry about being bitten if they aren't doing anything to provoke it. I shouldn't have to worry about choosing between standing still and being bitten or running away and being bitten! Seems I lose in both cases.

And please, I am a HUGE supporter of K9 patrol dogs and would like to see every officer (qualified officer that is), have one. It's incident's like this that make it harder for agencies to get public and political support for additional K9's. Every report like this that makes the news, hurts officers all over, not just in their own department.

Craig


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## will fernandez

Craig Snyder said:


> I think most citizens would expect that if a patrol dog inadvertently got out of a patrol car for whatever reason, they should feel safe and not have to worry about being bitten if they aren't doing anything to provoke it. I shouldn't have to worry about choosing between standing still and being bitten or running away and being bitten! Seems I lose in both cases.
> 
> And please, I am a HUGE supporter of K9 patrol dogs and would like to see every officer (qualified officer that is), have one. It's incident's like this that make it harder for agencies to get public and political support for additional K9's. Every report like this that makes the news, hurts officers all over, not just in their own department.
> 
> Craig


You make valid points....but sometimes an accident is simply a accident. Even the greatest team will have an oh shit moment. It happens. 

I will not judge this team one way or the other. Its up to the dept to find out why and fix the problem to prevent the likelyhood of this ever happening again.

One thing is for sure in policework no matter how bad you **** up today someone will out do you tomorrow.


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## Howard Knauf

will fernandez said:


> One thing is for sure in policework no matter how bad you **** up today someone will out do you tomorrow.


Aint that the truth.


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## Craig Snyder

will fernandez said:


> I will not judge this team one way or the other. Its up to the dept to find out why and fix the problem to prevent the likelyhood of this ever happening again.
> 
> One thing is for sure in policework no matter how bad you **** up today someone will out do you tomorrow.


I agree on both these points. It's not just the police side either. It applies to us folks on the fire and EMS side as well.

Craig


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## Thomas Barriano

Chuck Zang said:


> I would agree that some departments probably do that, and as stated, it is a bad idea.
> 
> Like David said, break out the check book; sooner rather than later.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2



The guy didn't want to appear on camera? AND he sounds like a terrorist. Ship him to Gitmo before he can file a lawsuit


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## Brett Bowen

I'd be interested to see if they can rule out the officer accidentally pushing the button while in the can. Be nice if they can recreate the situation and show that where the officer was at it wasn't possible that the door was opened by his remote because of range or the obstructions of the building. They seem pretty quick to blame the manufacturer. I know I have activated my in car camera from my belt many times just accidentally hitting it on something. Emergency button on my radio too. Two different types of buttons but it can happen. 

The city is still going to pay, but I bet it would lower that bill a little if they can show the door opening was not their issue. It's situations like this that all cities have a rainy day fund.


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## Joby Becker

I think the guy showed amazing composure myself. 

Although dragging the dog inside the store worked out ok for him, because the officer was there, I bet it goes against company policy  (lets bring the dog attacking people INTO the store)...

Not downplaying it all all, but his injuries could be much worse, and worse things certainly could have happened.

I agree, get a signature, write a check, ASAP....before it turns into a multimillion dollar lawsuit attempt, and the racial heavy hitters show up on the scene..


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## jim stevens

Howard Knauf said:


> A few years ago I read an article on control of the PSD regarding the patrol vehicle specifically. It was good info on how to train the dog to stay in the vehicle for situations like this very one.
> 
> The problem is that the majority of handlers only remotely open the door in an actual deployment, or while doing some sort of aggression training. Of course the dog is gonna jump out on his own, especially if he's not been taught to stay in the vehicle unless commanded to exit.
> 
> Also, (not blaming the victim because there is no video) what occurred outside? Is there no video of the outside of Walmart? I know in my city there is! If there is...where is it?
> I agree. We don't know if the civilian was teasing the hell out of the dog or what happened. I've seen people do some really stupid stuff with very aggressive dogs. About 30 years ago, I had an old line dobe that was very protective of territory. As in the meter reader read it with binos. One day I was home and heard the dog roaring, looked out and a teenage mental midget was swinging a baseball bat at my fence right in the dog's face and laughing about it. This dog had already given a guy between thirty and forty stitches who broke into my yard, he wasn't playing. You never know what really happened, the dog may have been taunted for thirty minutes. I also thought the reporting was suspect, I have a problem believing that the guy had bites on his chest and stomach, but the dog let go and then had a solid grip on his upper arm as in the picture. I'll bet the 'bites' the journalisto saw were claw scratches where the dog got leverage against his stomach and chest with the front legs. Us here know what kind of wound he would have had if a mali got a full mouth grip on his stomach! Journalists know as much about a working dog as they do a gun......somewhere between little and nothing. They are far more expert about latte and salad dressings.


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## rick smith

i agree that accidents sometimes just "happen", but that is a rare situation.
- most accidents are simply string of events whereby if one (avoidable) event did not happen, the accident wouldn't have happened ](*,)

chances are, the dog performed pretty much just like it was trained, and that hitting the ejection seat trigger was just that, a trigger to bite ](*,)
... so how did LE ever mange b4 this tech was available ? sounds great for a lot of situations and not so great for other situations. is there SOP for hitting the button or is it at the "officer's discretion" ?

and i'll also bet the LE was not questioned about his decision to walk off to take a pee out of site of his car/dog... i wouldn't even do that with some of the aggressive pet dogs i work with ](*,)

sure blame the electrics; that's a no brainer and might save the dept some grief but will not affect any training issues if they were involved

i have a few Q's for the LEO's :
1. what is SOP and accountability when a K9 bites an "innoccent" ?
(of course i know there is a review)
2. is the dog and/or handler decertified until it can be demonstrated and tested it won't happen again ?


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## will fernandez

rick smith said:


> i agree that accidents sometimes just "happen", but that is a rare situation.
> - most accidents are simply string of events whereby if one (avoidable) event did not happen, the accident wouldn't have happened ](*,)
> 
> chances are, the dog performed pretty much just like it was trained, and that hitting the ejection seat trigger was just that, a trigger to bite ](*,)
> ... so how did LE ever mange b4 this tech was available ? sounds great for a lot of situations and not so great for other situations. is there SOP for hitting the button or is it at the "officer's discretion" ?
> 
> and i'll also bet the LE was not questioned about his decision to walk off to take a pee out of site of his car/dog... i wouldn't even do that with some of the aggressive pet dogs i work with ](*,)
> 
> sure blame the electrics; that's a no brainer and might save the dept some grief but will not affect any training issues if they were involved
> 
> i have a few Q's for the LEO's :
> 1. what is SOP and accountability when a K9 bites an "innoccent" ?
> (of course i know there is a review)
> 2. is the dog and/or handler decertified until it can be demonstrated and tested it won't happen again ?



Well I bet he would get in even more trouble if Joan Q Public walked up on him in his car as he was peeing in a gatorade bottle.

Each Dept has its own SOP...

There are a infinite number of possibilities for accidental bites..I hope each is taken on a case to case basis..


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## Megan Berry

does anyone know who the manufacturer of the popper unit was?


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## Craig Snyder

jim stevens said:


> [Also, (not blaming the victim because there is no video) what occurred outside? Is there no video of the outside of Walmart? I know in my city there is! If there is...where is it?
> I agree. We don't know if the civilian was teasing the hell out of the dog or what happened. I've seen people do some really stupid stuff with very aggressive dogs.


Absolutely right. But.. this is a bit different then your example of the teenager and stick and a fenced in dog in a private yard. 

First off, cops know where to stop to take a leak. I'm sure this wasn't the first time this officer or others stoped while on patrol to use the facilities or pop in to pick up some snacks, a coffee or even some emergency personal items. It's not uncommon or unreasonable to expect. There's a good chance, the store employees were use to officers coming by and probably encourgaged it. Most businesses like to have officer's coming around. 

The guy that was biten was an older employee, not a drunk kid walking by. To assume he was teasing the dog is a big strectch. Cause now you have to have TWO unusal events happen. A nut job employee that decided to tease a K9 dog in a patrol car while he knows the officer was close by in the store AND a malfunctioning bailout device. (not saying it can't happen.. but really..) 

As to why drag the dog into the store? If the officer went there on occassion, and the unit was parked out front, it's a very reasonable assumption that the officer is inside. He might have already started running forthe store entrance when the dog came at him. Plus I'm going someplace that someone can help me. At 2 AM I doubt I'd find to many people in the parking lot that will lend a hand!

Usually the simplest explanations are the right ones. The bailout device either malfunctioned or the officer mistakenly triggered it from the restroom. The action of the bailout device put the dog on extra high alert and he exited the vehicle looking for a subject to apprehend cause that is the only training he ever received using the bailout device. This guy was the closest thing and maybe the only person in the area. I don't blame the dog.

Would it be such a bad thing to to change the paradigm of the bailout deveice? Train the dog initially to seek out the officer reliably first. Once the dog "acquires" the officer, secondary commands are used to direct the dog to apprehend. Lastly add the scenario where upon bailout the K9 goes directly for a subject struggling with the officer or a fleeing suspect? Wouldn't this lead more to a 'thinking' K9 seeking out his handler and coming to his aid? As opposed to an attack dog just being set free? 

It doesn' take a real trainer to make a mean dog and have it bite the first person it gets close to. 

I still stand by my original comments. The dog should be taught to always seek out the officer upon bailout when the officer is not in direct sight and able to command the dog upon exit.

It was mentioned earlier about training the dog to remain in the car when the bailout device is activated. I'd be against that since I could be out of ear shot of the dog or incapacitated or otherwise indisposed, (struggling with a suspect), and unable to yell.

Craig


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## Howard Knauf

rick smith said:


> and i'll also bet the LE was not questioned about his decision to walk off to take a pee out of site of his car/dog... i wouldn't even do that with some of the aggressive pet dogs i work with ](*,)
> ?


 Impossible to do. Most K9 handlers work calls like regular patrol officers. They are away from their cars all the time. Taking a discreet piss outside is alot harder on day shift.


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## will fernandez

Craig Snyder said:


> Absolutely right. But.. this is a bit different then your example of the teenager and stick and a fenced in dog in a private yard.
> 
> First off, cops know where to stop to take a leak. I'm sure this wasn't the first time this officer or others stoped while on patrol to use the facilities or pop in to pick up some snacks, a coffee or even some emergency personal items. It's not uncommon or unreasonable to expect. There's a good chance, the store employees were use to officers coming by and probably encourgaged it. Most businesses like to have officer's coming around.
> 
> The guy that was biten was an older employee, not a drunk kid walking by. To assume he was teasing the dog is a big strectch. Cause now you have to have TWO unusal events happen. A nut job employee that decided to tease a K9 dog in a patrol car while he knows the officer was close by in the store AND a malfunctioning bailout device. (not saying it can't happen.. but really..)
> 
> As to why drag the dog into the store? If the officer went there on occassion, and the unit was parked out front, it's a very reasonable assumption that the officer is inside. He might have already started running forthe store entrance when the dog came at him. Plus I'm going someplace that someone can help me. At 2 AM I doubt I'd find to many people in the parking lot that will lend a hand!
> 
> Usually the simplest explanations are the right ones. The bailout device either malfunctioned or the officer mistakenly triggered it from the restroom. The action of the bailout device put the dog on extra high alert and he exited the vehicle looking for a subject to apprehend cause that is the only training he ever received using the bailout device. This guy was the closest thing and maybe the only person in the area. I don't blame the dog.
> 
> Would it be such a bad thing to to change the paradigm of the bailout deveice? Train the dog initially to seek out the officer reliably first. Once the dog "acquires" the officer, secondary commands are used to direct the dog to apprehend. Lastly add the scenario where upon bailout the K9 goes directly for a subject struggling with the officer or a fleeing suspect? Wouldn't this lead more to a 'thinking' K9 seeking out his handler and coming to his aid? As opposed to an attack dog just being set free?
> 
> It doesn' take a real trainer to make a mean dog and have it bite the first person it gets close to.
> 
> I still stand by my original comments. The dog should be taught to always seek out the officer upon bailout when the officer is not in direct sight and able to command the dog upon exit.
> 
> It was mentioned earlier about training the dog to remain in the car when the bailout device is activated. I'd be against that since I could be out of ear shot of the dog or incapacitated or otherwise indisposed, (struggling with a suspect), and unable to yell.
> 
> Craig



..I have a funny feeling that when the dog came out of the car looking for his handler could it not of been possible that the victim might of freaked at the site of the loose police dog. Thus acting like a fleeing suspect.....the dog could have been trained correctly yet the accident still happened..You cant train for the infinite...

I dont know of any police trainer that tries to create a mean dog that bites the first person he sees...It goes against every tactic and officer safety.


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## Craig Snyder

will fernandez said:


> ..I have a funny feeling that when the dog came out of the car looking for his handler could it not of been possible that the victim might of freaked at the site of the loose police dog. Thus acting like a fleeing suspect.....the dog could have been trained correctly yet the accident still happened..You cant train for the infinite...
> 
> I dont know of any police trainer that tries to create a mean dog that bites the first person he sees...It goes against every tactic and officer safety.


You are correct and I believe that could be exactly what happenned. But a person just running should not be a trigger for the dog. A person runnning that the officer indicated should be. 

Just like a human partner, any K9's top, number one priortiy should be to always back up their partner. I would think that finding the partner should take priority over everthing.

Also, I'm not sure about police trainer's not creating mean dogs. I think there are some hold over's from era's past that think the biggest and meanest is the best. I think that attitude has vanished in a lot of places but I still think there are a few out there. Officer's getting bitten by a K9 is not an uncommon occurance. It's just kept very quiet. In many cases it's a heat of the battle thing and along with some officers not following SOP's. But in some cases....

Craig


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## will fernandez

Just like a human partner, any K9's top, number one priortiy should be to always back up their partner. I would think that finding the partner should take priority over everthing.

craig


---------------------

They are and always will be animals....their top priority


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## Craig Snyder

will fernandez said:


> Just like a human partner, any K9's top, number one priortiy should be to always back up their partner. I would think that finding the partner should take priority over everthing.
> 
> craig
> 
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> They are and always will be animals....their top priority


Aninmals yes. But highly trainable.

Surely if volunteer, part-time SAR people can train pound rescued dogs with questionable or unknown backgrounds to not critter and to not chase deer, squirrels, rabbits etc while searching offleash ... a professional K9 trainer, working full-time, can train a top quality K9 to ignore running people and other distractions unless otherwise commanded and go find his handler at all costs.


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## will fernandez

Craig Snyder said:


> Aninmals yes. But highly trainable.
> 
> Surely if volunteer, part-time SAR people can train pound rescued dogs with questionable or unknown backgrounds to not critter and to not chase deer, squirrels, rabbits etc while searching offleash ... a professional K9 trainer, working full-time, can train a top quality K9 to ignore running people and other distractions unless otherwise commanded and go find his handler at all costs.


craig

ok...


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## Brett Bowen

All about balance though. On some level the dog needs to think it's going to bite when that door pops, or they go on a track, or a building search, etc. That creates a motivated dog. But needs to be balance to not want to nail the first person it sees. 

Like has been said, can't train for the infinite. Argument could easily be made that all the people that are running around one of them might be the subject that needs to be engaged. In which case, probably shouldn't be popping the door anyway. So to me, my 2 cents, doesn't make sense to train to search for the handler to me shouldn't be cutting that dog loose if you are so far away they have to search. Seems like a kneejerk reaction to a freak accident to teach all k9's to search for their handler to get direction first. 

Municipalities have rainy day funds for just this reason. They will review, maybe make some policy changes, equipment changes, maybe some additional training, but in the end they will write a check from that fund and thank the stars that it wasn't worse.


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## Craig Snyder

Brett Bowen said:


> All about balance though. On some level the dog needs to think it's going to bite when that door pops, or they go on a track, or a building search, etc. That creates a motivated dog. But needs to be balance to not want to nail the first person it sees.


So the motivation for the dog is the bite? It never was the motivation for my shepherds. They enjoyed working for sure. But their motivation wasn't to bite. That was simply another task like retrieving or climbing a ladder that I asked them to. Their motivation was the completion of whatever task I asked of them and my praise of them.


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## Howard Knauf

Craig,

A) What were your GSDs trained to do?
B) Have they ever been put in a position of being loose in a strange place without you?
C) There are a lot of assumptions of what may, or may not have happened prior to the dog coming out of the vehicle.

You can armchair quarterback this all day. You're not going to get a satisfactory answer. Even IF we knew what happened outside I don't think you'd be happy with any explanation anyway.


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## will fernandez

Craig

A patrol dog is not a ppd, is not a sar dog. It s function is to search, find and apprehend..The dog must go in under and around to locate and often bite a suspect out of eye sight of the handler 

So please stop comparing your former dogs to a patrol dog...unless of course you have video or have trained with someone on the board that can attest to their greatness.


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## Craig Snyder

Howard Knauf said:


> Craig,
> 
> A) What were your GSDs trained to do?
> B) Have they ever been put in a position of being loose in a strange place without you?
> C) There are a lot of assumptions of what may, or may not have happened prior to the dog coming out of the vehicle.
> 
> You can armchair quarterback this all day. You're not going to get a satisfactory answer. Even IF we knew what happened outside I don't think you'd be happy with any explanation anyway.


a) Both of mine were trained for just about everything a patrol dog would do. One was donated to the police in fact and served as a Delaware State Police K9. Very little additional training with regard to bite work or control was required. Building search trainng wasn't something they were trained to do.

b) Yes. My dogs were handled by others in stange places, offleash and in public
c) You are correct. And several here also blamed the victim and made assumptions there as well.

I'd love to see the final official report on this and I'd be happy with that. But I can guarantee that report won't see the light of day and the vicitim will be written a nice sized check to go away.


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## Craig Snyder

will fernandez said:


> Craig
> 
> A patrol dog is not a ppd, is not a sar dog. It s function is to search, find and apprehend..The dog must go in under and around to locate and often bite a suspect out of eye sight of the handler
> 
> So please stop comparing your former dogs to a patrol dog...unless of course you have video or have trained with someone on the board that can attest to their greatness.


Will,

I agree 100% with your first sentence above. And mine would, on command from the handler.

My opionions, (causer that's all they are), are just as valid as your's. You are right, you know nothing about me or my dogs so you have no right to say I CAN"T compare them.

I'd love to have video of them. Unfortunately video was not common 25-30 years ago. So I guess you'll just have to live with my opinions or just stop reading my posts!! :smile:

Craig


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