# GSD pup muttering on bite



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

OK so i know people here are hostile toward over analysing dog behavious but i have a behaviour i haven't seen before and was hoping for opinions, my guess this means nothing really but just askin;

*background:* GSD pup born in may, fathers line well known top sport dogs - quality eurok9 bred the rest, nasty anonymous working security dogs

pup is indiscriminate/no preference on its choice of tug toy, it will just as vigourously play with a soft rag, a oversize rott tug, a metal garden shovel a coke can, wood, leather/jute surfaces or literlly whatever, needs no adjustment to different surfaces bites evrything equally first time presented. 

pup can never resist biting the tug if presented, has never walked past disinterested or walked away from a game even with food bribes and serious fatigue

*behaviour: * if actual or makeshift tug (see point 1) is left laying around the pup will keep re-killing it over and over while muttering/vocalising to itself all the while, the intensity of the vocaliastion never decreases it increases as does its intensity to destroy the tug - its not a chewing thing its a shake, kill, disect thing, counter, recounter thing and pushes deeper every bite.

first GSD so not sure what the average is. as far as around the house he is the perfect house dog, straight refuses to go inside and politely waits at the door to be let out if locked inside. follows me from room to room and patiently waits when i'm busy.

pup prefers to be more physically close than what i am used to from previous dogs, it has no environmantal issues and has been pretty much everywhere from industrial sites to crowded shopping malls. it enjoys and seeks affection cf my curr is gone as soon as it gets out of vehicle and scouts around me when off leash within about 1/4 mile radius and checks in about every 10-15 minutes. 

GSD never leaves my side more than 10ft. curr seldom seeks affection, rather be hunting by itself than be with people.

young dog i know but making a same age comparison to evrything else i had.

video would be easier but haven't joined that tube thing yet, lots of recent pics in my member photo gallery.

all sound typical for a GSD???


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My young high drive BC did that. If it squeaked he would go extra crazy, vocalising and getting more and more intense in his efforts to dispatch the toy, throwing it in the air and smashing it on the ground and biting, to the point I would sometimes have to step in. He has always been a furious tugger and will vocalise in deep growls out on the agility course, he is such an intense dog, though he doesnt do it while herding.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Been into the sauce?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> *behaviour: * if actual or makeshift tug (see point 1) is left laying around the pup will keep re-killing it over and over while muttering/vocalising to itself all the while, the intensity of the vocaliastion never decreases it increases as does its intensity to destroy the tug - its not a chewing thing its a shake, kill, disect thing, counter, recounter thing and pushes deeper every bite.
> 
> 
> sound typical for a GSD???


Sounds typical for bad owning. I wouldn't worry much about anything else you are seeing at this point if the dog is environmentally sound.

What are you doing with the dog? What are your goals. Sport, security?

Typically letting a dog destroy something on the ground is thought to make it have a chewier grip. It self rewards for re-adjusting. If you are doing sport, I would recommend against picking things up on his own to destroy, he may enjoy this more than what you want him to do in the end. I will say, I am not a puppy guy, but I have worked a lot of puppies and don't want to see handlers letting a dog do this. This is why a crate is nice. You can keep a small area cleaned up from things to chew on. If you let him destroy things that go dead, this can easily transfer when you let him "free range" in the house.

What dogs do you typically work. I think you mentioned this is your first GSD pup.


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## Tammy Cohen (Dec 21, 2008)

Speculating here, Is he making noise as you are near him staring at his prize by any chance? Do his vocalizations get louder as you get closer? Without looking at him it sounds like pretty good prey drive with some nerve and possessiveness in there. He's uncomfortable and wants to hurry up and "kill it" before you try to take it from him (or your other dog, or whomever he thinks wants his coveted prize) This could be genetic or learned or a combination of the two. Either way, nip it in the bud. Unless a frantic, chewy, nervy dog is what you want.
What are you planning on doing with this puppy? I wouldn't let him take the tug and chew it up. As Dave said you aren't doing anything to help his grips and it sounds like you may end up with a dog that is intensely focused on equipment depending how civil he is, which you won't find out until later. Put him in a crate or run. When you play tug with him, make sure his grips are full and try to keep him calm and steady on the bite. You don't want to reward chewy, hectic behavior. When you are done, PUT THE TUG AWAY.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I meant to also say, you also don't have to address the growling when he is "killing it" on the ground, if you don't let him take it to ground. Monitor it in bite work, and address it if it continues to manifest it self. 

Look for possible reasons/triggers like Tammy said, and desensitize the dog later. If he doesnt' get to perform it, it may go away.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Dave, I know you have a lot of experience in working dogs so I am a bit hesitant on this.

This is often used as a golden rule - don't let the dogs chew things, it will spoil their grips. So I didn't.

However both our dogs, GSDs, have excellent grips, so now I let them chew whatever kong, ball, etc. that they want to. Not forever, but to allow me to drink my coffee, after exercising them, in peace.

In my mind the grip is genetic.

Peter, I had a Briard just like your curr (?), he had a very large social circle, maybe 50-100 metres but when I whistled, he'd come in.

The older GSD (mine) has a mucher closer circle. As a pup, if I disappeared, he would stick his nose to the ground and find me within seconds.

The younger GSD has an extremely large social circle - so far at times that I keep him on a long line when exercising him.

I don't think this has anything to do with the breed. My Briard and our younger GSD were / are not so dependent on us.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Dave, I know you have a lot of experience in working dogs so I am a bit hesitant on this.
> 
> This is often used as a golden rule - don't let the dogs chew things, it will spoil their grips. So I didn't.
> 
> ...



Gillian. 

Thanks for the a lot of experience comment. You sound pretty agreeable to things I believe and vs. versa and sound pretty good at training, yourself. I think you take a thoughtful approach to training and do what works. If everyone did this, we'd all be better off. Truth of the matter is I assume you have more experience than I do, because I don't know you and I don't want to underestimate you when interacting. As far as my experience, I am better as a problem solver than handler. I have helped some good teams get better by watching and critiquing. Teams that far exceed my abilities as a handler. 

That being said, if it works, why not. I let most of my (adult) military dogs chew a kong or ball. I think it affected some of their grips a little, but I was admittedly not even caring about that at that time. Some of the dogs bit well and some didn't. My best biting dog had a 3/4 grip and pushed in, not opening his mouth. Genetically, I think that was what he was capable of. It seemed to hurt just as much when he bit, so I was okay with it. He kept a ball in his mouth like a pacifier when I would let him hang out at night on deployments. If it would have affected his work in the day, I would have stopped.

Same with your dogs I am sure. If it affected a grip I am sure you would put two and two together and stop.

We'd never do anything different if we didn't push limits and have success and failures. We'd all be the same and that would be dull in my opinion.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Can you really infer that there is a nerves/possessiveness issue by how he plays with it by himself? I think Peter needs to post on his tug with the puppy first and let you see him in action.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Can you really infer that there is a nerves/possessiveness issue by how he plays with it by himself? I think Peter needs to post on his tug with the puppy first and let you see him in action.
> 
> T


Growling on a bite is typically a sign that a dog is uncomfortable. Some dogs do it out of habit that was encouranged and has nothing to do with this or nerve issues. You can see a dog change, even a puppy when you walk up to take a toy, so yes, from what you see in him playing with it by himself, you could suggest a problem if he gets more vocal or chewy.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thanks for responses i will clarify individual posts when i get the chance, taking dogs for a run in about 2 minutes. some things came up i need to clarify;

1. the dogs isn't growling - i described it as a "mutter" becuase i couldn't think of a better word - it is not a whine or a growl it is something else - haven't got a word but it is kinda higher frequency than a growl and lower freq. than a whine.

2. it is not correlated to my approach, he basically only does it when i have left the scene and escaltes it regardless of my presence - in fact when i approach he gets distracted and stops the noise.

3. he rarely does it when playing only when left alone with tug - which i am not going to do anymore - he does the same thing with a bone however.

4. Dave (i think) first GSD actually first dog that is a recognised breed, rest all kelpie/ACD/hound/bully/lurcher crosses. see pics in my gallery

5. what am i going to do with the dog - i will base that on dogs abilities either pet/sch./sec/herding/agility/tracking. 

i am working on security licence so if dog suits the work i will drop the sports as i think that would be counter-productive in training.

i think there may be no explantion for the vocalisation other than the dog likes to vocalise - thats where u guys are supposed to step in n set me straight. i will provide more info as requested for yr thoughts.

cheers

PS i really am happy i got this dog, different eg kinda more needy/handler focussed/attentive than i'm used to but mega-cool just the same.

PPS Gill met my first Briard this year - nice, very active/energetic, i'm surprised there aren't more in sch.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> thanks for responses i will clarify individual posts when i get the chance, taking dogs for a run in about 2 minutes. some things came up i need to clarify;
> 
> 1. the dogs isn't growling - i described it as a "mutter" becuase i couldn't think of a better word - it is not a whine or a growl it is something else - haven't got a word but it is kinda higher frequency than a growl and lower freq. than a whine.


This was as far as \i got on this post...Peter you have to be kidding ??


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Looks like the dog is speaking in German.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

video of the muttering please


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

I think your watching this pup too closely for signs of what he will be when he is an adult. Just let him develop at his own rate, both of you will be happier.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ... video would be easier but haven't joined that tube thing yet ....





Brian Anderson said:


> ... video of the muttering please ...


Photobucket is very easy to join and use, and it's free.

http://register.photobucket.com/?ref=joinus

http://www.ehow.com/how_2031242_share-videos-photobucket.html




PS
Even I mastered Photobucket, and I am no photo wiz -- I needed another mod's help to do my sig pic here. :lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Tammy Cohen said:


> Is he making noise as you are near him staring at his prize by any chance? Do his vocalizations get louder as you get closer?
> 
> think i answered them,
> 
> ...


roger that one

thanks


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Sounds typical for bad owning. I wouldn't worry much about anything else you are seeing at this point if the dog is environmentally sound.
> 
> What are you doing with the dog? What are your goals. Sport, security?
> 
> ...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> This was as far as \i got on this post...Peter you have to be kidding ??


 
actually no??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Photobucket is very easy to join and use, and it's free.
> 
> http://register.photobucket.com/?ref=joinus
> 
> ...


i have put a bunch of still pics up here already, do you REALLY want to watch a video of a pup chewing a toy??? that will get a bunch of views i'm sure.

i think my first vid whenever that is will be a bit more interesting for you all, i understand your suggestion in the context of the thread though.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I want to watch it! I'm curious about the muttering/growling/whatever.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I want to watch it! I'm curious about the muttering/growling/whatever.


+1


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i will put in my list of things to do if you need the sport, can't say it will be high on that list , considering i only asked about a behaviour i found curious. i didn't come pleading with a crisis question or anything - glad yr askin though Connnie not telling; if i remember right you corrected another member i think it was Jeff O in fact on another thread for demanding someone put a video up, pot/kettle thing as u say.

as far as i'm concerned the responses already answered the question or gave good possible answers, thats enough for me.

if i remember right again (memory gettin worsse with age) i got a thread locked here because it went on too long and there were "enough responses", can get the actual quoted reason for locking it if you don't remember the thread, pots/ketttles??.

anyway all is fun


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i will put in my list of things to do if you need the sport, can't say it will be high on that list , considering i only asked about a behaviour i found curious. i didn't come pleading with a crisis question or anything - glad yr askin though Connnie not telling; if i remember right you corrected another member i think it was Jeff O in fact on another thread for demanding someone put a video up, pot/kettle thing as u say.
> 
> as far as i'm concerned the responses already answered the question or gave good possible answers, thats enough for me.
> 
> ...


I just want to find out what muttering actually is  and everyone like puppy vids...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

makin a post on the herdin thread then going to the photo-bucket link kindly provided. 

BTW thanks for the responses / advice - never was a big deal to start with just trying to understand a breeed i'm new to.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

is it like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCXBI5mWxJM


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

not game to click on the link yet - is it something disgusting or possibly illegal?, not joking here.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> not game to click on the link yet - is it something disgusting or possibly illegal?, not joking here.


had wrong link, fixed it...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Is it like the growling at 4:52 in this video ? With Bingo it occured when I got within a few feet of him and it was conflict with me 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u88OonLf040.

That was my first year working wih him and the growling it never got better no matter what I did to try and build his trust .


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jim,

I watched a bunch of the videos of you and Bingo for the first time, good stuff. My Japanese is getting rusty, but it's pretty cool you're son wants to be a K-9 cop when he grows up.

Sorry to side track the thread.


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