# Making Heeling Flashy



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I simply have not been training my dog enough lately, so I signed up for an advanced class with an AKC trainer. Kick in the pants to train my dog and learning about AKC obedience which I haven't done before.

I'm just starting to break through my dog's lack of "brain" in training. He was trained lure, crank, jerk. I train with operant conditioning. He is finally learning to think for himself and I'm starting to see reall progress in training. It is starting to be fun for us!

I'm working on attention heeling. I was training with food, but I wanted his drive up for a prettier picture. So I started using toy/tug reward. He is starting to give good attention now instead of just glancing up occassionally. His drive is up.

I was working on right about turns. My goal was teaching him to accelerate around my leg. This will be usefull for sharp about turns in heeling and for the figure-8 exercise. 

At the point where I turned and he BOLTED anticipating me throwing the toy, I decided to shape that pick-me-up into the pace change. Heeling normal pace to quick pace. Didn't get a heck of a lot of progress with that.

I thought I would get animation with higher drive. Nope. I got some crabbing. I changed the location of reward - tucking the tug under my arm - to get that straightened out a bit. Now he is moving his whole body (straight) to the side, requiring an extra fuss command from me. Not thrilled.

When he forges or loses attention I slap him on the head with his little tug. Beautiful correction. BUT if he is moving away from me, I can't use that correction. He is too far away and comes to heel on my other side. (WHY did I teach him agility crosses??!)

I do not want to have to work him on leash. I want PRETTY, animated heeling. Where the dog strikes its front legs forward powerfully, and the dog's shoulder bounce just a little bit.

How do you get that gorgeous animated look? Tight accuracy - huge drive - like a coiled spring in motion. My dog gets sloppy as drive goes up. 

Can this look be trained primarily positively? Or is it the correction (the dog trying to self-control) that gives the animation? Or is it just a breed thing and my big lab is SOL?

We are 2 LONG sessions into heeling. I want to get it pretty now before it is too hard to fix! My goal is to have pretty heeling, short duration by Wednesday.

What am I missing?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Only mark and reward correct position. It can also help if you heel with the dog against a wall, fence, etc. 
Initially your building muscle memmory for the dog to remain in position without crabbing.
With any method it's all about the timming.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bob - once I get the position more perfect, do you think the animation will come naturally? My timing is good - it I can get him to do it, I can reward it and have a really good chance of training it.

Not sure how I can get it the first time(s).


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Nah I don't think that animation comes naturally...you have to create it. Just marking correct postion gets you just that...correct postion...but no flash. I think you gotta use a leash for this to establish WHERE that correct positon in....Toy is on my left shoulder, held there with right hand...put it in your pit and you are begging for crabbing and forging ..leash is held really short and used to prevent all the forward /sideways movement ..and your leash movement is UP..You can't get it unless your dog is working off his hindquarters....thats the only way to lift the front . Thats how the dog in my Avatar was taught.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Bob - once I get the position more perfect, do you think the animation will come naturally? My timing is good - it I can get him to do it, I can reward it and have a really good chance of training it.
> 
> Not sure how I can get it the first time(s).



The animation will come when the dog's confidence comes up IF the dog is capable of animated work. some aren't. 
The dog doesn't have to be perfect right out of the gate. That's where the timing and your mark come in. That split second in the beginning is all you need.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mary Buck said:


> Nah I don't think that animation comes naturally...you have to create it. Just marking correct postion gets you just that...correct postion...but no flash. I think you gotta use a leash for this to establish WHERE that correct positon in....Toy is on my left shoulder, held there with right hand...put it in your pit and you are begging for crabbing and forging ..leash is held really short and used to prevent all the forward /sideways movement ..and your leash movement is UP..You can't get it unless your dog is working off his hindquarters....thats the only way to lift the front . Thats how the dog in my Avatar was taught.



Animation comes from drive. If the dog has it, it will come unless the dog is corrected out of it. That's all about handling, not the dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Mary - I think this dog is past having the toy visible. I definitely need the toy/reward invisible and random by Wednesday. This trainer is a bit weird. I casually mentioned when I talked to her on the phone that I generally used clicker training and she started going off about how clickers/rewards/praise can't be used in trial. Umm.... yeah. I got that much figured out! :roll: ](*,) We definitely butt headson training styles, but I'll suck it up because she is the area expert for AKC OB. So she WILL come down on me if the dog can see the toy!

She's also going to try to rip me a new one because I don't use a "stay" command. She teaches people to swing their right hand across their body INTO THE DOG'S FACE while giving a LOUD stay command. Freaks me out. Last time I was in her advanced OB class a few years ago, she ripped into me because I didn't. Apparently she doesn't believe me that it really DOES work that I train my dog to follow my LEFT leg, NOT my right leg. If I step off with my right leg, it is a stay. If I step off with my left, it is heel. In-motion exercises are always given as I step down with my left foot (so I am stepping off with my right). And pace changes are opposite - cue on right foot, then stepping off with my left foot. LOL I've trained a whole string of dogs this way and it has worked. Sorry. Off-topic venting. :-#

I'm confused how you are using the leash. Are you literally lifting the dog up with the collar, while the dog is moving? Does your dog have a strong opposition reflex? I guess I don't understand how that changes the gait/movement? Are you just talking about forging? I guess that makes sense. Are you keeping tension on the leash like in gaiting for conformation? I don't think I want to start that - it could turn into dependency (touch cue) for this dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne, AKC ob uses the stay command. I don't use it. When I leave the dog I just give it another sit/down commmand for the sake of compliance with the judge. Not all will even give a crap. In a group exercise I don't say a thing. It's the left leg right leg, as you mentioned, that is the cue.
With Schutzhund it's simple. The dog has been given a command. It knows what it's supposed to do. Why add another command just because your going to walk away from it.
When you leave for a sit stay/down stay the hand signal is usually with the left hand. The right hand comming across is usually for a moving stand in Utility.


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Umm...good questions I am a cross over from Schutzhund..so do not use the stay cue either...don't need it ..for my dogs its implied...sit means sit until I tell you to do something else. This frightens purely AKC trainers...be nice and fake it for them in class and do whatever the heck you want in training. Just an idea  

The toy at your shoulder creates the drive and upward lift..which is supported by the leash. Its not a correction...its more of communication through the leash. Dog is naturally looking up at the toy...and my leash is supporting exact postion . I use my hand open.and push the leash upward with the pad between my thumb and first finger ...telling dog UP UP UP ..gets me that driving upward legs flinging lift. Its pretty...but only useful in AKC if you can control it for postion...crabbing wrapping and forging are heavily penalized....ask me I know! But I owuld rather have a really upbeat animated performance than a technically correct dead looking one that scores high. 

If the trainer is gonna freak out about the toy...I can get the same thing by reaching across my body with my right hand....hand goes upwards in the collar and my thumb tucks into the notch of the dogs jaw...left hand goes behind the dog's head to push it along while my right hand corrects the lift. Dog will fight it...best not to debut this with your trainer...looks like you are fighting with a tuna...but its now my correction as my dog works soley offleash...I always have my hands..and I whpi this out if I get attitude or driving fade from my dohg. Got a bunch of students using it too..it's purely Sylvia Bishop.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Mary - do your dogs put their entire head up - vertical? My dog mostly looks up. His head is at the same angle as this dog (last attention heeling dog I trained) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLynTLexoI

Is it that the higher the head, the more the front legs lift up? I am not in so far in training that I couldn't back up and bring his head - maybe...

If I look at L'Simba - my favorite heeling dog, his head is nearly vertical. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAr1Lo2b7cw&feature=related

There is a AKC OB trainer that also trains Sch and has trained Marina and criticises their heeling from AKC point-of-view. (Seriously, how crazy strict are they?!)

I need appearance before AKC points. The happier my dog is to work with me, the easier it is to sell private lessons. :-$

How accurate does heeling need to be for AKC?

ETA: for visual reference, the AKC national OB dog right now is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L569kTlht10&feature=related


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

HI Anne

Making heeling flashy in three easy steps

1) Buy Michael Ellis Focused Heeling DVD

2)Watch it several times

3)Apply the techniqes to your dog training.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Thomas - Been to Ellis seminars, so I'm not sure I'd get a whole lot out of the DVD. I'd be more likely to go to Mark Keating and have him pick apart everything I'm doing. I should probably put an ecollar on ME and hand over the remote. =; LOL

Bob - I'll just say something and pretend my dog thinks it is a stay command.

Does anyone know if "irregular" commands are a problem in AKC? Am I going to have an issue if my heel command is fuss, but the rest is in english. Using wait instead of stay... Are those points-busters in AKC? I'll find out next week, but I could start retraining fuss with the word heel and it would be an opportunity to improve accuracy at the same time.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Thomas - Been to Ellis seminars, so I'm not sure I'd get a whole lot out of the DVD. I'd be more likely to go to Mark Keating and have him pick apart everything I'm doing. I should probably put an ecollar on ME and hand over the remote. =; LOL
> 
> Bob - I'll just say something and pretend my dog thinks it is a stay command.
> 
> Does anyone know if "irregular" commands are a problem in AKC? Am I going to have an issue if my heel command is fuss, but the rest is in english. Using wait instead of stay... Are those points-busters in AKC? I'll find out next week, but I could start retraining fuss with the word heel and it would be an opportunity to improve accuracy at the same time.


Hi Ann,

For focused heeling and collection I prefer Bridget Carlson's methods. (http://www.bridgetcarlsen.com/). She has several youtube vids of her training her new puppy. This method works awesome!! I am using it with my siberian husky and it works (of course I am not on the same schedule as she is with her golden but I am really happy with the results). The only thing I don't like is that she talks ALOT during her training. So I use the method without all the talk.

She uses food initially to teach and instill muscle memory in the dog. And she does this in straight lines to default the behaviour. Then she starts to add in other factors (turns, about faces, fast, slow, etc).

While I enjoy Micheal Ellis and have learned a ton, I am not a big fan of his heeling method either. I prefer the AKC style heeling with the head vertically back rather than cocked in front of the handler and to the face.

I do not think there are irregular commands. I have heard many many many different words/phrases used in the CKC/AKC rings. Just for example with "heel" I have heard "close", "with me", "follow" as well as different languages.I have not seen anyone penilized for using two different languages.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> Mary - do your dogs put their entire head up - vertical? My dog mostly looks up. His head is at the same angle as this dog (last attention heeling dog I trained) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLynTLexoI
> 
> Is it that the higher the head, the more the front legs lift up? I am not in so far in training that I couldn't back up and bring his head - maybe...
> 
> ...


L'Simba is cute...that performance would be slaughtered in AKC for forging....It wouldn't place and it might not be above the 190's...therein lies the issue ....I prefer the upbeat syle...but have to very carefully craft it to reduce forging , bumping and crowding.

Tyler on the other hand (Lab you posted) is what they consider techinically perfect and I find utterly boring and flat....but...he wins. Its very workmanlike and there is not much joy...imho. 

I think I aim for something in between the two..and I do ok  My dogs head is not vertical the entire time...I think some dogs can do it....but you have to consider the structure issue...the Mal has a nice long neck and a straight short shoulder...conformationally its easier for the dog to do it...and look natural and at ease in his body....My current dog is big...he can get the head up....but he has more shoulder angle....so its not going to give the same impression of lift. Also he is much longer than a Mal.....with that much length...ist pretty hard to keep it all straight...any crabbing or sidewinding is also penalized in AKC.

Your pup is cute....but the complete verticle style would not be my choice for his/her head/neck assembly......I think its too hard the dog over time....that breed has a pretty thick neck and lots of muscle...so inhertently less flexible than say the Mal. He is short of body...so you won't have as many crabbing sidewinding issues though.

My pet peeve is the exaggerated style...we see it in a ton of one line of Goldens here. I think they actually breed for the structure that produces that....which is not the optimal structure for everything else . Certainly not longevity in the field. Flash will win in AKC...but only if its technically perfect. 

I have my students work with their dogs structure and come up with what suits them best as a team...I don;t think you get alot of smooth preciision if you force a style thats not good for your dogs structure.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Here is the dog I am training - it's not the little pit in the video. Short thick neck. Do you think vertical head is asking too much / would be uncomfortable for him?


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Nice looking dog! I think you could get more than the from the Pit....but not as much as the Mal..without looking totally forced and uncomfortable for him. He is long....like my guy...so really take care that the head doesn't come round you...if it does the butt will swing wide and you will have a ton of crabbing. 

And to go back to a eariler question..you can use whatever commands you like...mine are ones from all sources ...no judge has ever cared...and sometimes my finish command gets a smile (Fly!)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I played around with heeling while my son was playing at the park today.

My dog tends to lag. Makes it really easy to not put his head up then. I used food for accurate timing and placement of reward.

I used flat collar and leash tight in front of my left leg to keep his neck forward. Then rewarded high right at my hip - not forward and in front.

You're right - he does crab just a little bit. I tend to fix it by giving a fuss command. I teach that with hind-end awareness, so it fixes crabbing, BUT I think it results in a dog that is too dependent on communication from the handler (for OB trial).

The training did get a better position. I ended up getting a little anti-crabbing. lol I don't know what it is called, but he started swinging his but behind me. Opposite of crabbing. It was easy enough to fix.

I liked it, I'll work on it more, but I'm not convinced it is going to "stick."


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Thomas - Been to Ellis seminars, so I'm not sure I'd get a whole lot out of the DVD.


Anne,

Your choice. I've been to a lot of seminar too (including Michaels)
Seminars are a lot of dogs with different problems. The DVD's are dedicated to specific topics. The Focused Heeling DVD is several hours of information just on heeling. Then again, this isn't the first 
topic where you've asked for advise and then found fault or argued
with every suggestion :-(


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never had a problem using "fuss" in the AKC ring. Sit is damn near the same in both languages and I use "front" for formal recalls in AKC and Schutzhund.
In AKC Open class the dog gets one command for the retrieve over the jump. Not "hup" then "bring" as in Schutzhund. I just use "bring" in AKC. The jump is just something in the way of the "bring" for my dog. 
The only problems I've had crossing over is the dumbell. In AKC the judge has the right to reject any dumbell they feel is incorrect. 
I had one judge comment on using the Schutzhund dumbell when I was getting my arm band. She didn't like it but said go ahead anyway. I made an effort and borrowed an AKC dumbell with fingers crossed. Usually any stick I throw that is less then 1 inch dia Thunder will just crunch it. 
The judge thanked me for listening to her "suggestion". I think we took second that day. 
Also, the Schutzhund dumbell makes one hell of a racket landing indoors and scares the crap out of a lot of the AKC dogs in adjoining rings. :-D:-D:-D:-D\\/


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Got a pm about a trainer that led to this video I want to share - a new favorite heeling dog. All the rance of L/Simba without so much forging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_OiRxI-lQ

In AKC, would I lose points if the dog touches me with his face/cheek? He's getting maybe too close to me?


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

I love Denise's dog...its got flash with accuracy. She probably get slightly pointed for butt out ..especially on sits. I would take that in a heartbeat! This is not what she has in the ring btw....no motivator in her right hand in the ring...but its nice. You train OVER and know you get less in the ring . 

Yes if you dog touches you you lose a point each time..called interferance.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mary Buck said:


> I love Denise's dog...its got flash with accuracy. She probably get slightly pointed for butt out ..especially on sits. I would take that in a heartbeat! This is not what she has in the ring btw....no motivator in her right hand in the ring...but its nice. You train OVER and know you get less in the ring .
> 
> Yes if you dog touches you you lose a point each time..called interferance.


Mary,

I really like her dog too. The video says its Schutzhund titled, so I'd like to see a video of normal heeling, not that silly hand over the belly button stuff 
I have two of her Fenzi Frenzy toys, great for building prey drive in puppies.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

The other thing that is part of a dog that has flash and animation (both) in heeling also (ducking and running) is the structure of the dog.

I know Denise Frenzi as well. We used to be at the same club (Menlo Park). She is an excellent OB trainer AND competitor.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Do I HAVE to put my hand over my belly button for AKC? I've done some work to train him to ignore my left hand swinging as I walk. I do tend to hold myself like Cindy Phodes - pics of her and her dog: http://www.kaiserhaus.com/rush.htm Especially like the pic of her and Rush when Rush is 10 months. Cindy taught me a lot about training the attention heel. 

I flipped through the AKC OB regulations today and it isn't very specific on details.

Last night, trained for 5 minutes. I got so stinkin fed up with him sidestepping away from me (in excitement about potential reward). As soon as I pick up the pace or reward more frequently, he starts popping away from me and I have to stop or recommand him to fuss. So he sidestepped away and I whacked him on his left flank with his reward toy. Got some good easy stuff after that and called it a day. I need to find out if I did some damage to his focus, enthusiasm. Or maybe it will have improved the heel. I dunno. I would like to finish off this training of leash and then add in the leash as a distraction at the end. I don't know if that is possible? realistic? 

I will see if my bf will take some video of heeling today.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mary,
> I really like her dog too. The video says its Schutzhund titled, so I'd like to see a video of normal heeling, not that silly hand over the belly button stuff
> I have two of her Fenzi Frenzy toys, great for building prey drive in puppies.


Thomas,

She has video on her website of Schutzhund heeling with the dog from Anne's video link, and her current dog, as well as her mother, at http://www.spritebelgians.com/meet/video-gallery.shtml

No "tummyache" but she does fall into the trap sometimes many of us from AKC have by tending to keep her left arm still.

Laura


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> No "tummyache" but she does fall into the trap sometimes many of us from AKC have by tending to keep her left arm still.
> 
> Laura


At a Ivan seminar he threatened to put the e-collar on my left wrist for that stuff :lol: It's a default that I hope I've cured now ;-)~


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Anne I have had some pretty animated heeling and I think I have a different take on it than most of the posters so far. IMO, there are several components to the heeling style you're looking for. The first one is conformation of the dog. The ideal conformation is flexible with good angulation in the rear. I think that this is important so the dog can get his rear under his belly. The further the dog can get his rear legs under his body the more of his weight he can transfer to his rear. The Lab you showing in the pic above might have some problems doing this. 

Although the dog must have drive, I feel it's more important that the dog have energy. IMO, energy is very often mistaken for drive. You need drive to teach the heeling, but you need energy to maintain it throughout the trial. 

What I do to teach it is pretty straight forward. First I don't teach the dog to look at my face from the heel position until I teach the dog to focus on my left shoulder area. This is very important because once the dog learns to look at your face, from heel position he will always tend to do this. I put my toy (ball) under might left arm pit and teach the dog to sit in basic position with the dog focusing on my armpit. When the dog is showing good focus here I mark it and drop the ball. I introduce compulsion here for the dog looking away. Once the dog can do that well and with distractions I then take one step forward and wait for the dog to refocus on my shoulder. If he does that quickly and with some power I reward with the toy from the armpit. Once the dog has mastered the one perfect step I then move on to two, then three, then four........

The hard part comes when you need to wean the dog off the lure. For that I like to use a heavy hand and start from the beginning. I put the dog in basic and correct if he looks away. If he holds it I mark*, move/lure the dog out of basic*, then reward. Once that's perfect I then do one step...then two... then three.......At this point the dog should be heeling nicely with a bit of animation. He won't look like you want at this point but he will have a bit of animation. 


Now it's time to polish. I walk *very slowly* and correct the dog only for forging. I do lots of quick halts and correct the dog for slow or crooked sits. If the dog crabs at this point I do circles to force him into position. I only correct, while moving, for forging because he must work to contain himself. A dog with lot of energy has a hard time containing himself. So where can he let the energy out? He starts to animate his movement. It's your job, at this point, to make sure that he only gets his reward when the movement is what you want. 

Ok I'm sick of typing and think you can get what I'm saying. And remember, THIS IS NOT GOSPEL, take what works for your dog and training style and leave the rest on the table. Good luck.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Do I HAVE to put my hand over my belly button for AKC? I've done some work to train him to ignore my left hand swinging as I walk. I do tend to hold myself like Cindy Phodes - pics of her and her dog: http://www.kaiserhaus.com/rush.htm Especially like the pic of her and Rush when Rush is 10 months. Cindy taught me a lot about training the attention heel.
> 
> I flipped through the AKC OB regulations today and it isn't very specific on details.
> 
> ...



On your belly button or "swinging naturally at your side". I used to tuck my thumb in my belt to keep it in place.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Thanks Chris. That is what makes sense to me. Why I haven't done it with this dog... no answer for that. #-o What would you do with a dog that doesn't tend to forge?

Well, I'll try putting in some compulsion. The last heeling dogs I've trained did really well after introducing compulsion in the form of a prong collar. I WANT to do this all off-leash and w/o correction, but I probably should be sensible. lol

If I correct with a prong collar (rather than stop, make his fix it, withhold reward, and start over) I *should* get more animation? Because the prong is the stimulating correction, and without do-overs the rate of reward is increased?

Hmm... yes, I think it wil work. When I pick up the pace, he does get animated for a fraction of a second before he breaks the heel position. Instead of training him so intensively to stay at heel - and in the process, taking all of the fun/animation away, I need to pick up the pace, go quick, compulsion to keep him at heel. And the energy/frustration/drive that currectly causes the break from heel will translate into animation.

Makes sense. A lot of sense. Thanks Chris for telling me what I already *know* but somehow was hestitant to DO. You got me to think about the consequences of continuing to do what I have been doing. It would get nice heeling - but not animation.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

When Denise 1st started in SCH in the late 90's, we would threaten to give her a glass of wine to loosen her up in the OB on the field...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Thanks Chris. That is what makes sense to me. Why I haven't done it with this dog... no answer for that. #-o What would you do with a dog that doesn't tend to forge?


i really don't have that problem very often 'cause most of my dogs are high energy and want forge. But my current dog (19 months) has a tendency to lag a slight bit so I started to put my ball under my left chin/jaw. and then used the conflict of the lure vs correction. 





> If I correct with a prong collar (rather than stop, make his fix it, withhold reward, and start over) I *should* get more animation? Because the prong is the stimulating correction, and without do-overs the rate of reward is increased?


Yes, but you have to condition the dog to keep his rear under his body and his weight on his rear. And the best way I have found to do this is to go slow so the dog must collect himself, and put pressure on the sit so the dog is anticipating a bit. When he anticipates the sit he will start keeping his rear low and under himself, thus you can mark that point. Play with the pace latter on and find the pace that your dog looks his best.




> Thanks Chris for telling me what I already *know* but somehow was hestitant to DO.


Glad to help you bring out the inner you.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Had no progress. Then a briliant idea today! My dog is highest in drive when dock diving. So I had him heel on the dock and tossed it as reward.

We got the drive for forward motion on the dock. He whined and vocalized the entire time. :roll:

Going VERY slowly, I think I figured out some of his heeling issue. I trained him to follow my left leg. But he follows my right leg too - taking 2 steps for every one of mine. Adding correction confused him because he thought he was right. Correction just brought him out of drive.

So I started teaching him to follow my left leg ONLY, not my right. He was starting to get it. Speed it up and I hope it will be a prance.

No luck on getting video yet. Unfortunately, not something I can film myself!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

The dog I originally was posting about has been placed with a handler. I have his littermate now. She didn't have the "pet" basic obedience training and her ball drive is even higher, so she is easier to train in general.

I'm going very, very slow with her. Right now, I'm teaching her to look at me in the heel position. Trying to shape it to the vertical head position. Using a little forward pressure on the leash with the treat pushed back a little to get her head very straight up.

Using a food lure to teach her to "step off" with her head up. One of my pet peeves is a dog that drops it head on the frist step of attention heeling. In the video of my dog I posted earlier, the first thing you see on the video is her stepping off with her head up - because it's my fav thing. 

It seems like it is physically easier for her than it was for her brother. A few minutes a day...


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Mary - do your dogs put their entire head up - vertical? My dog mostly looks up. His head is at the same angle as this dog (last attention heeling dog I trained) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLynTLexoI
> 
> Is it that the higher the head, the more the front legs lift up? I am not in so far in training that I couldn't back up and bring his head - maybe...
> 
> ...


I must agree with you this way of heeling where the dog looks straight up at you looks grat take a look at Bart Bellon dog he walks like this to \\/

many use treats to hold the muzzle up like this when thei start to train like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEhuiydhVvU&feature=related

that is how to get the drive and head up but is takes a long time because its a unnaturel way to walk but looks good\\/


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

here is to how to learn your dog to walk like this mostly you learn the dog with food when dog gets the point that it should hold its muzzle high you use playthings to get the dog in more drive\\/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcZXrfUq8K4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcZXrfUq8K4&feature=related


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Milder - those look like totally different ways to train.

The first vid with the mal it looks like enthusiasm first, then refine it. And that dog has enough drive I think it's gonna work! =D>

The second video is teaching the position first, then adding enthusiasm.

I'm trying the second way with this dog because the dog is training to be a service dog and too much enthusiasm in heeling can be a problem.  I think those videos are a great example of difference between ring and AKC heeling and WHY there is the difference. As much as I want to do the mal-style heeling... not this dog. For my midlife-crisis-malinois when I turn 40 and my son moves out! :lol: \\/

Question for y'all:

Do you teach a target? Like the second vid Milder posted where the dog target's the handler's hand? Or a visual target?

I remember Mike Ellis saying to somebody re: their dog's heeling "You have great eye contact with your dog. Now lose it!" :lol:

I'm going for eye contact with this dog (for better or worse), because obedience is not my primary goal with attention heeling. Primarily, I train it for a service dog task that has huge benefit for a person with agoraphobia or hyper vigilance. (And BTW, it's a soft task that might not count as a "physical task" as far as the service dog legalities. But it can make the difference between a person being home-bound and being able to leave the house, so whether or not it is "physical" doesn't matter to me.)

What problems can I expect with not using a target? Wrapping? Crabbing?


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Milder - those look like totally different ways to train.
> 
> *The first vid with the mal it looks like enthusiasm first, then refine it. And that dog has enough drive I think it's gonna work! =D>*
> 
> ...


I myself used the mali way because its easiere for me :mrgreen:


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Question for y'all:
> 
> Do you teach a target? Like the second vid Milder posted where the dog target's the handler's hand? Or a visual target?
> 
> ...


What's wrong with eye contact? I like it, I like the connection to my dog most of all. I think it's easy to allow the dog to crab when you're asking for eye contact, but it's not necessary. You can make the dog stay in good heel position and maintain eye contact, it's just a little harder probably. 

Laura


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> I remember Mike Ellis saying to somebody re: their dog's heeling "You have great eye contact with your dog. Now lose it!" :lol:
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I am very careful to not be guilty of "dog trainer scoliosis." :lol: That is one thing I am glad I learned a long time ago! I reward from my right hand crossing in front of my body, so it is something I have to constantly check and make sure I am presenting the right picture to the dog.

Michael was working with someone and teaching the handler to use the turning of her hips to cue the dog for turns. I've done that and it takes a lot of work but I like it.

I've read people use eye movements as cues. I've done it for other stuff, but not heeling. Do I remember correctly that Bernard Flinks uses inhaling/exhaling as cues for turns, etc? Anyone else do anything like this?


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> I am very careful to not be guilty of "dog trainer scoliosis." :lol: That is one thing I am glad I learned a long time ago! I reward from my right hand crossing in front of my body, so it is something I have to constantly check and make sure I am presenting the right picture to the dog.
> 
> Michael was working with someone and teaching the handler to use the turning of her hips to cue the dog for turns. I've done that and it takes a lot of work but I like it.
> 
> I've read people use eye movements as cues. I've done it for other stuff, but not heeling. Do I remember correctly that Bernard Flinks uses inhaling/exhaling as cues for turns, etc? Anyone else do anything like this?


When I'm about to make a right turn I turn my head to the right first and then my body. Since my dog is watching my face he knows that I'm about to make a right turn. I do the same thing for left turns. Clues are a common practice.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Mike Jones said:


> When I'm about to make a right turn I turn my head to the right first and then my body. Since my dog is watching my face he knows that I'm about to make a right turn. I do the same thing for left turns. Clues are a common practice.


I like that. I will tuck it away for future reference when we get to turns. TY!


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Be careful for AKC/CKC ...you will be pointed for head turn as a cue...if you can be subtle..it will work. I use an eye flick...indecernable to the judge...but works great for the dog. Direct eye contact can be problematic for wrapping...but oblique eye contact...where I can see my dog from the corner of my eyes...but my focus is forward works pretty well. I cue with eye flicks and the dog can pick them up instantly. My guy nailed a 199 this weekend and cleaned some Golden butt on the way...it CAN be done. Half point becuase he moved a foot on the exam and half point because the judge took issue with my down signal in groups. Whatever .


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Most of the videos of great Schutzhund heeling dogs would barely qualify in AKC for the amount of forging, bumping, crowding and wrapping that they do. Teach your dog a slightly further back position, with a focus on the arm instead of your eyes, and it will be fine for both sports. I find dogs crab when they are expecting a reward somewhere to the right and also when you are combining the release word and the body language of taking that toy out to the right. Michael Ellis has a great point when he wants you to reward heeling up and straight over the dog's head.Then you get rid of all that sign tracking that dogs do in anticipation of where the reward is going to come from. 
I compete with all my dogs in both AKC, and Schutzhund, and lately with one in French Ring. I get most points in Schutzhund, a couple points off for bumping in AKC, and the judge in French Ring gets mad at the leash touching my dog because his head is up. So now I have 3 different hand positions for the dog's heel... Ha. 
It can certainly be done without a leash and without compulsion (you asked that early on in the thread) but your timing has to be very good with your release word (or click). 
I find energy and spirited heeling comes from drive for the reward (and for my dogs) lack of compulsion at any point in heeling. 
Have fun!
Shade


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Most of the videos of great Schutzhund heeling dogs would barely qualify in AKC for the amount of forging, bumping, crowding and wrapping that they do. Teach your dog a slightly further back position, with a focus on the arm instead of your eyes, and it will be fine for both sports. I find dogs crab when they are expecting a reward somewhere to the right and also when you are combining the release word and the body language of taking that toy out to the right. Michael Ellis has a great point when he wants you to reward heeling up and straight over the dog's head.Then you get rid of all that sign tracking that dogs do in anticipation of where the reward is going to come from.
> I compete with all my dogs in both AKC, and Schutzhund, and lately with one in French Ring. I get most points in Schutzhund, a couple points off for bumping in AKC, and the judge in French Ring gets mad at the leash touching my dog because his head is up. So now I have 3 different hand positions for the dog's heel... Ha.
> It can certainly be done without a leash and without compulsion (you asked that early on in the thread) but your timing has to be very good with your release word (or click).
> I find energy and spirited heeling comes from drive for the reward (and for my dogs) lack of compulsion at any point in heeling.
> ...


Agree!
When in the AKC ring it was totally up to the judges with the heeling. Especially when a number of the AKC people ran to the judges and complained about our bumping, forging, etc.
The next day seems to always be lower in points........but we still cleaned their clocks! 
In Schutzhund the judge may comment that the dog was forging or the dog was bumping.
In AKC the judges pencil moves with eeeeevery little bump or forge. Just a but anal........but I'll still go for my UD this yr or early next. :wink:
One of my then club members had a fantastic performance for her first time in the AKC ring but the judge killed her for not moving her hand correctly. She held it up on her rib cage insted of at her belt buckle. ](*,)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Heeling as of tonight. What do I need to fix?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1wQj2ryldg


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looks great but try it with no lead on. Your using it for control just a bit! If the dog forges just change directions quickly. Mark and reward as the dog gets back even with you. 
Maybe a bit to much animation for AKC but that's their loss. :wink:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Thanks Bob! You're right about the leash. I did train the foundation for heeling offleash and she has never been a dog to wander off. I did use it 2-3 times when she was too far in front. My trainer would be all over me about that too. He told me to ignore and wait for correctness, then mark/reward. Hard for me to change habits!

I should have remember the changing directions. Right turn for lagging, left turn for forging. Thank you for the reminder.

I'll try again when this thunderstorm passes.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Bob - once I get the position more perfect, do you think the animation will come naturally? My timing is good - it I can get him to do it, I can reward it and have a really good chance of training it.
> 
> Not sure how I can get it the first time(s).


No it won't with all dogs. I learned a way that you sprint out quickly with the dog and as fast as possible, then drop to normal speed. They have to gather themselves and like Bob said it's timing to pay them as quick as possible and only if they are correct. The running out in heel and slowing down almost makes the prance, oh no here comes Jeff  and they are anticipating the ball coming out so they have a lot of built up momentum so their front paws come up! Make sure you don't give the ball by your chest because crabbing will happen for sure. as close to the left front side of arm pit as possible!
Some dogs are just more flashy naturally but you can make them better!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You will see some dogs "prancing" but if you watch closely you often see it's in sinc with the handler's left leg coming forward. Close moving, or wrapped dogs often have to do that in order to avoid contact with the handler's leg.
Trust me. I know this one!  :lol:
The animation is often all about the dog's attitude and drive.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I have not read the complet thread this my smal tips.

If you have à friend to help you this is à god way. You put à 10-15 meter lesh on the dog. Them you Walk in à 20 meter cirkel around your friend, When the dog starts to pull away from you your friend pulls the dog away from you, this Will result in the dog pulling back to you. He Will work against you friend and to you. It sounds stupid but it works god  ofcaus reward When he gets to you ib the right position.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Obedience trialing is not really my thing but one of my ACDS is not bad so I did a fair bit of training with her. She has a lot of natural drive and is very animated when heeling. 

To get her postion perfect I treat her exactly in the place I want her head. Initially luring at the sweet spot and then rewarding, but always at the same spot on my thigh. I found she never surged when I did this. With her body postioning she was never really a crabber but we did lots of initial around chairs and posts and step by step initially getting her body postion right with her rear end.

I actually am not keen on the head up in the stars position, it looks unatural to me and makes my neck ache to watch it. I do like the dogs head to be tilted looking up with eyes shining and ears pricked and in perfect postion next to my leg, but that is my personal like.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Lots of great tips/pointers in this thread! 

It inspired me to get off my butt yesterday and fine tune the heeling on my dog.

Thanks!


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