# Training with dysplasia



## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

I have an almost 15 month old GS male. I have posted about him a few times before. I went to the vet today and he was diagnosed with right hip dysplasia and a fracture in his left pelvic bone. My doc said I have 3 weeks to do the sx on the hip b/c of his age/size/severity. He has been very sick on and off since I have had him at 6 months old. 
(btw his mange finally cleared YAH!!!)

I haven’t been able to properly train him due to his health. I just started obedience training (and agility) and we have to stop due to his upcoming sx and he will have to be crated for up to a month after. My question is what do you recommend in the mean time? He hasn’t been totally socialized with other people/animals due to his health and I am worried with him going under in a few weeks that I will of course be forced to delay his training even longer… any ideas on what I can do with him in the mean time and after? (he can’t jump, run, or walk far) 

He is 110lbs LEAN :-o


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

The orthopedic surgeon should give you very specific instructions on any activity. You paid for the consult, its part of their job to explain any restrictions--. That is a question for a vet specialist and not a message board. I wouldn't be surprised if its just easy walks and maybe swimming. You missed the prime socialization period between 8-16 weeks, but you'll just have to play catch up.
110lbs lean? IMO too big for dog sports--too hard on the body, plus with orthopedic problems, find an outlet that is less taxing on the body for him. Again, my opinion.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> The orthopedic surgeon should give you very specific instructions on any activity. You paid for the consult, its part of their job to explain any restrictions--. That is a question for a vet specialist and not a message board. I wouldn't be surprised if its just easy walks and maybe swimming. You missed the prime socialization period between 8-16 weeks, but you'll just have to play catch up.
> 110lbs lean? IMO too big for dog sports--too hard on the body, plus with orthopedic problems, find an outlet that is less taxing on the body for him. Again, my opinion.


Though my surgeon explained the limited amount of activity my dog can undergo while awaiting surgery he was unable to give me tips on how to continue any type of obedience while doing so. That is of course not a question I expect him to answer.
I would like to see if anyone in this forum has any ideas on how to continue doing any type of obedience in this situation. I have been making headway these last few months with his aggression (with strangers) training. I will contact my facility I train with and ask them on Monday but I was looking for any suggestions here also.

Yes he is XL I wish I could stop him from growing but I can’t. He is great in our training group and agility when his health allows him to go. (He hates water with a passion )


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

How about tracking? Mentally challenging. When my female was recovering from TPLO surgery, I taught her with a clicker to put stuff in a basket, and other clicker games in the house, nothing but mentally challenging stuff. We also worked on articla indication too. Good luck.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I know this sounds harsh but if it were my dog, I'd just keep him really lean and not spend the money to fix him. Keep him as a pet as long as you can and get a new dog.

Currently one of my rotts (rescue) has severe HD at only 2yrs. I could see it in her gait at 6mo when I was asked to take her. She's a high drive rottie and is showing signs of not being able to keep up with my other two. She's still a sweet dog. I trained her in schH style OB (mostly practice for me) using a clicker only. I don't let her do any bite work PERIOD. I run my dogs everyday and I can see how stiff she is afterwards so I just give her an asprin.

The bottom line for me, the dog was born this way and fixing it isn't going to make her a better dog. When it's time to go, it's time to go and for me when she starts to go lame more often than not, then I will put her to sleep. 

a 110lbs dog that is lean? WOW, that's a big dog! None of my rotts are over 80lbs, they are on the ribby side. I feed one cup of canidae in the morning and one cup at night plus the occasional pizza crust or end of sandwich.

If I didn't have my competition male, I would still be happy. My dysplastic dog is fully OB trained (would easily pass a BH or CD) and will chase a ball and bring it back every time what more does a need from a pet?

IMO - Enjoy your dog now and maybe look for something more suitable in the mean time. There nothing wrong with multiple dogs, I have five.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just this from your post would have me put him down

Quote:I went to the vet today and he was diagnosed with right hip dysplasia and a fracture in his left pelvic bone. My doc said I have 3 weeks to do the sx on the hip b/c of his age/size/severity. He has been very sick on and off since I have had him at 6 months old. 
(btw his mange finally cleared YAH!!!)

Not being awfull, just stating reality. Keeping a dog alive in pain so that you can feel as if you are doing something nice has been overpromoted to ****ing death on the internet, and most people are just too weak to say what needs to be said. I have been in this position before and it just sucks on a scale that is not fair to deal with. Most people I know shove their head in the sand and just let the dog live on in incredible pain.

Please do not be this person.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Not being awfull, just stating reality. Keeping a dog alive in pain so that you can feel as if you are doing something nice has been overpromoted to ****ing death on the internet, and most people are just too weak to say what needs to be said. I have been in this position before and it just sucks on a scale that is not fair to deal with. Most people I know shove their head in the sand and just let the dog live on in incredible pain.

Please do not be this person. 


[/quote]

can appreciate where you are coming from. I recently put my male lab down due to over whelming health problems at the age of 7 (heart disease, lime disease and bad hips). My female shepherd age 6 had to be put down after she became sick from cancer 5 months ago. 
I can probably say I have more experience then most having to choose when to say goodbye. Being in a GS rescue I have had to sit beside many good dogs while they were put to sleep. 
If I thought he was in overwhelming pain and he should be put down I would. But he isn’t. It wasn’t untill this last month that Valentino showed any signs of having trouble during our walk. 
 I am working with a doctor who specializes in GS’s and he treats most of the local Southern Cali police k9’s. If he believes he do a surgery that will help him live a healthy happy life then that is what is going to be done. 

Like I said I can see where you are coming from. If I didn’t know everything about the situation and my background I would probably say the same thing.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> How about tracking? Mentally challenging. When my female was recovering from TPLO surgery, I taught her with a clicker to put stuff in a basket, and other clicker games in the house, nothing but mentally challenging stuff. We also worked on articla indication too. Good luck.


Thanks Sarah! I do have a few books on search and rescue and they have some basic info on tracking.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I know this sounds harsh but if it were my dog, I'd just keep him really lean and not spend the money to fix him. Keep him as a pet as long as you can and get a new dog.
> 
> a 110lbs dog that is lean? WOW, that's a big dog! None of my rotts are over 80lbs, they are on the ribby side. I feed one cup of canidae in the morning and one cup at night plus the occasional pizza crust or end of sandwich.
> 
> IMO - Enjoy your dog now and maybe look for something more suitable in the mean time. There nothing wrong with multiple dogs, I have five.


After I rescued him I learned his "breeders" tried to breed the biggest GS's they could... ](*,) 

My golden (7 months) loves to do water sports. She has 2 bad hips and I don't think I am going to do any sx on her. She gets around fine for now, I had her eyes done (she had entropion) at 6 months when she was spayed; it was fast and inexpensive. A total tennis ball nut! 

I am thinking of getting another male GS this summer (puppy)... but this time I am buying one from a breeder. I love my rescue but I am ready to get a dog I can really do "work" with and not have to worry as much about all these health problems! Which was the main reason I joined this forum I wanted to learn more about true "working dogs."


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jamielee,

You can keep his brain active. Get a clicker and train SMALL behaviors. It's challenging for trainer and dog.

Some ideas:

Speak, sneeze, growl and whine.
Head up, head down, look right, look left.
Lift each paw on cue.
Lift left side paws, lift right side paws.
Lift front paws, lift back paws.
Wave. 
Put head on ground and paw ears.
Put head on ground and cover eyes with paw.
Choose objects by scent. (Think Chalcy's variation on the AKC scent discrimination exercise.)

Do you get where I'm going with this? 

Be creative and have fun with it!


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Wow so much stuff Thanks!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

How did he fracture his pelvis?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> How did he fracture his pelvis?


Yeah, I was gonna ask that too. Does he have low bone density?


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> How did he fracture his pelvis?


I have no idea... the doc says it looks old. He thinks possibly an old car accident? (before I adopted him)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Wow, poor guy has been through the ringer - sure glad he has someone like you now.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jamielee Nelson said:


> I have no idea... the doc says it looks old. He thinks possibly an old car accident? (before I adopted him)


Yikes.

So it's healed? Or at least as much as it was going to without being set into position?


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yikes.
> 
> So it's healed? Or at least as much as it was going to without being set into position?


it's healing on it's own right now. We decided not to touch it inless it starts to cause him pain.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I thought this would be a good thread to post this article on. FYI, Ester C is cheap. I just picked up 300 tablets, 500 ml, for 10 bucks at Costco. You can't beat that. It also bolsters thye immune system. I picked the tablets up for me....not the dogs. The last couple of paragraphs tells you it is not a cure all but, it beats asprin and most other things. If all these dogs are running and playing, they have little pain involved. I am goping to have to put it up in two parts also.

Ester-C: Miracle Cure for Hip Dysplasia???

By Larry Mueller, Hunting Dogs Editor, Outdoor Life. 
Reprinted from Outdoor Life, January, 1996.




An acquaintance of mine, B.J. Richardson, was calling from Texas, doubt and hope in his voice. "My English Pointer isn't a year old, and he's already lame in the rear end, especially the left hip," Richardson said. "The X-rays show hip dysplasia. The veterinarian says there are two choices: operate to alleviate the pain, or put the dog down. I can't afford one and won't do the other. Is it true that Vitamin C might help?" 

I had to say that I'd never heard of Vitamin C curing canine hip dysplasia, but I was aware that veterinarian Wendell Belsfield of San Jose, CA, did prevent CHD -- or least its symptoms -- in eight litters of German shepherds, a breed that is prone to crippling abnormal development of a dog's hip joints. In those instances, all of the dogs' parents had CHD or had previously whelped pups that became dysplastic. Belsfield gave the bitches Vitamin C throughout pregnancy and lactation. The pups received Vitamin C from weaning until they were two years old. None of the pups developed CHD during that entire period. 

Though Belsfield's work wasn't scientific in the strict sense, it certainly indicated that CHD could be prevented. Still I couldn't see how the joint could be remodeled once it had grown improperly, at least not without surgery. However, Vitamin C therapy seemed to be Richardson's only hope, so I told him what I knew. 

Many readers had written and told me that their arthritic dogs normally were laid up after a few hours in the field, but when given Vitamin C, they could hunt several days in a row. None had said they did it with dogs that had CHD, but maybe.... 

I also recalled reading about the efforts of Dr. Bob Cathcart, a medical doctor in California who championed the use of Vitamin C in curing a wide variety of joint ailments and illnesses. Much of his work centered around using the vitamin in large quantities, increasing the doses until the body reaches "bowel tolerances." Though Cathcart's work was with human patients, many veterinarians adopted his method, saying that Vitamin C should be given in increasing doses until the dog's stools loosen, at which point the dose should be backed off a half a gram or a gram at a time until the stools became firm again. At that point, the dog's body receives the maximum Vitamin C that it can utilize. 

I also understood that a superior form of the vitamin is Ester-C, which can be purchased in health food stores. The vitamin in Ester-C is molecularly locked to calcium, so it doesn't cause the acidity problems normally associated with ascorbic acid (the common form of Vitamin C), which can upset a dog's stomach. Ester-C also has natural C metabolites that get it into the cells faster and more effectively (common ascorbic acid is slower getting out of the blood serum, so it passes through the kidneys, where much of it is rapidly lost in the urine). 


Pinto's Rebound
A month or two later, I heard that Pinto, Richardson's dog, had begun improving less than a week after receiving maximum doses of Ester-C. Pinto, the grandson of Miller's Chief -- an 11-time champion in horseback-style bird-dog trials -- was now running like the wind. I was as surprised as I was delighted. 

Two years later, I was in Texas and dropped in to see Pinto. Richardson had kept him on a maintenance dose of Ester-C. The dog was moving with a fluid grace and power in the hips. Twice, for a step or two, I saw a bunny hop, suggesting that not everything was 100 percent correct. But both times, Pinto immediately shifted back to a normal gait. 

I still couldn't understand how Ester-C could remodel a defective joint, but I was hopeful. Nobody I knew whose debilitated dog had improved clinically on Ester-C had ever taken X-rays of the joints, so I asked Richardson to have X-rays taken. 

He did and mailed me the original X-ray taken two years before and a new one. I showed both to Dianna K. Stuckey, a board certified radiologist in St. Louis, who looked at the original and pointed out the hip dysplasia with the left hip most severe. The second? "Arthritis that customarily follows hip dysplasia," she said. I explained Pinto's quick and lasting response to Ester-C. "How could this dog go from lame to moving freely, and apparently without pain, in a few days -- and stay that way without something improving in the joints?" 

"We occasionally see this," Stuckey said. "A dog is arthritic yet moves as if it feels no pain. We don't know why. Great 'heart' maybe, or high pain tolerance." 


Mystery Unfolds
I'm sure that veterinarians do see this. But the answer to my question, Pinto's improvement was not because of great heart or high pain tolerance. He had been hurting and he had been limping badly. If his response to such pain improved in just a few days, something caused that change. 

Dr. Chuck Noonam of Weston, CT also compared the X-rays. He noticed slight improvement in the severity of the dysplasia but said the hip joint had clearly succumbed to degenerate arthritis from the dysplastic hip joint banging around in and out of the socket. 

"Eighty-three percent of dysplastic dogs either show an improvement in their hip dysplasia or they learn to deal with the problem as they grow older," Noonan said. "The second X-ray shows that the dysplasia is slightly less severe, but because of the arthritis, the joint is worse overall than in the earlier X-ray. It is possible that the Vitamin C was helping to sort of lubricate the joint so the dog felt less pain." 

In my investigations, I had found that Pinto's results from Ester-C weren't unique. Soon after Richardson first called, I received a letter from Steve Dudley of Arizona. His young black Lab, who showed great promise at hunting Gambel's quail, went lame with CHD. Dudley's vet suggested that Dudley replace the hip -- or expect to put the dog down by age four. Dudley tried Ester-C instead and the dog promptly improved. Kept on Ester-C, the dog lived until age 13 without showing signs of soreness, lameness, or unwillingness to hunt, Dudley wrote. 


Flood of Proof
My investigation also led to Charles Docktor, an Arizona veterinarian who was the first to test Ester-C for its effectiveness in healing joint problems. In 1983, he used Ester-C on a large number of arthritic dogs, finding that 75 percent improved in various degrees in a short period of time. 

Independently, a continent away, Dr. Geir Erick Berge, a veterinarian in Oslo, Norway, performed a similar study, that was reported in the August-September 1990 issue of The Norwegian Veterinary Journal. Berge selected 100 dogs with a variety of joint ailments. His testing revealed that 75 percent of the dogs rapidly improved on Ester-C, some only slightly, some almost totally. Dr. Berge added that large amounts of Vitamin C metabolites, substances essential to a body's metabolic processes, are required in rebuilding diseased joint tissue. 

Corroborating data were also reported by Dr. N. Lee Newman, who conducted 18 months of clinical tests using Ester-C to combat degenerative joint disease in performance horses. She reported a remarkable 90 percent success rate, ranging from good to excellent. Furthermore, 80 percent of the improved horses remained sound after Ester-C was discontinued. Newman credited supplemental Ester-C with maintaining the integrity of collagen and connective tissue and with mobilizing white cells in the immune system, while deactivating free radicals that damage cell membranes. 

But other respected voices were making contradictory statements. The Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine Animal Health newsletter in May 1995 denied that Vitamin C was of any value for either preventing or treating skeletal diseases in dogs. "There have been absolutely no confirmed reports that Vitamin C is helpful in any such instances," the newsletter stated. It went on to theorize that supplemental Vitamin C has no value because dogs produce adequate amounts of the vitamin in their livers. 

But that reasoning is questionable. Vitamin C production varies from dog to dog, individual bodily needs vary, and circumstances -- health and environment -- vary enormously. "Adequate" in human medicine only means enough Vitamin C to prevent scurvy. What is adequate for a strict carnivore like a dog? And in any case, "adequate" should not be assumed to be a synonym for "optimum." 

This is where a Vitamin C standoff occurs, and getting people to change their scientific opinion is like asking them to change their religion. In Cornell's favor, the evidence that has existed supporting the use of Vitamin C on dysplastic dogs is heavily anecdotal. Even the various veterinarians' research that has been cited was actually efficacy tests -- that is, all of the dogs tested were given similar doses of the vitamin and no controlled comparisons were made. Efficacy testing strongly suggests conclusive evidence, but it does not provide scientific proof.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Continuation of previous post:

The Acid Test
But in 1994, veterinarian L. Philips Brown presented the results of scientifically acceptable "double-blind crossover" study on the effects of Vitamin C to a national conference on holistic veterinary medicine. Brown, the owner of the largest veterinary hospital on Cape Code for 22 years, tested Vitamin C on 50 dogs with serious joint problems. The dogs were among a population of more than 500 canines at a large animal sanctuary in Utah. It should be noted here that representatives of Inter-Cal, makers of Ester-C, specifically asked Brown to study the vitamin because they felt it could have a major role in the treatment of joint abnormalities. Dave Stenmoe, one of the representatives of the manufacturer, says "We told [Brown] not to take our word for anything." Just to keep an open mind and conduct a scientific comparison of Ester-C, ordinary Vitamin C, and a placebo. He finally agreed to do it. 

Brown, along with the Utah sanctuary's resident veterinarian, hand-picked the dogs with the worst cases of joint disease and placed them in five groups. 

After four weeks of testing, the supplements were withdrawn for three weeks. Then, each dog was crossed over to a different group and received another supplement for another four weeks. After yet another three-week layoff, 60 percent of the dogs were switched to a third supplement. The remaining 40 percent went back to whatever they were given during the first four weeks. At the end, mobility scores were calculated to determine the average for each of the five groups. 

The results were impressively in favor of Ester-C therapy. Seventy-eight percent of the dogs on 2,000mg of Ester-C experienced improved mobility within four or five days. The average improvement score was 1.52. About 60 percent of the improved dogs relapsed when Ester-C was discontinued, but the group that returned to Ester-C in the third phase then regained mobility. Handlers reported no negative side effects. 

On the low (850mg) dose of Ester-C, only 52 percent of the dogs improved, with an average score of 0.45. Obviously, size of dose was important. Of dogs receiving 2,000mg of Ester-C with extra minerals, 62 percent improved by an average score of 0.87. Why Ester-C without extra minerals had better results remains unknown. 

Ordinary Vitamin C improved 44 percent of the dogs, with a score of 0.67. As expected, no noticeable change occurred among dogs on the placebo. 

Not even the most dyed-in-the-wool skeptic can ignore the results of such a double-blind crossover study. But the success of Vitamin C in treating CHD can still be questioned, or even denied, because X-rays show that the joints remain loose or arthritis remains. Even Brown confirms that X-rays taken for his study reveal defective skeletal structures even after the Ester-C treatment. 


Soft Tissue Factor
But those who see improvement with Ester-C are looking primarily at an animal's behavior -- they see an improved ability to function. How can both proponents and skeptics consider themselves correct? Perhaps by each being half right. 

A joint is not bone alone. Soft tissue -- cartilage and synovial membrane -- exist between bones to permit movement. If such tissue deteriorates, movement becomes more painful. Vitamin C is essential in the making and rebuilding of soft tissue because it promotes the growth of Collagen, a tough, stringy "mortar" that holds cells together. At the same time, the soft tissue also holds water, which maintains compression resistance to cushion the joint -- this is the "lubrication" described by Noonan in his assessment of Pinto's X-rays. 

In healthy cartilage, normal cell loss is balanced by the rebuilding of cells. Under diseased or inflammatory conditions, cell loss is excessive. In the case of a dog's hip joint, this can mean that adequate cushioning no longer exists. The high demand for Vitamin C may begin exceeding the amount made in the dog's liver, so deterioration continues. Or supplemented Vitamin C may turn the process around. 

Field experience, although still anecdotal, suggests that dogs on Ester-C lead full lives without terrible pain and debilitation. Ester-C may prove to be a wondrous holistic cure, but OUTDOOR LIFE cautions that it's too early to state definitively that Vitamin C can cure or rectify canine hip dysplasia. Some doctors contend that the treatment is merely a Band-Aid on a far more serious problem. 

We should add one point. Hip dysplasia is at least partially inheritable. And it is not a simple, single-gene defect. There is now concern that dysplastic dogs returned to mobility may also be returned to reproduction, which would further spread the malady. It is fair to say that there appears to be a great deal of hope for the benefits of Vitamin C, but before administering the vitamin to your dog, consult your veterinarian. And until more is known, don't breed that dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks, Don, for posting that.

Would you personally agree with the concluding paragraph:

QUOTE: Hip dysplasia is at least partially inheritable. And it is not a simple, single-gene defect. There is now concern that dysplastic dogs returned to mobility may also be returned to reproduction, which would further spread the malady. It is fair to say that there appears to be a great deal of hope for the benefits of Vitamin C, but before administering the vitamin to your dog, consult your veterinarian. And until more is known, don't breed that dog. END


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I would agree with most of it Connie. I don't think they have a clue as to what causes HD and this is where I disagree. I think most is misdiagnosed and the vast majority is a post natal trauma largely caused by removing the dogs from their natual environment and putting them in the house on hard flat surfaces instead of a rounded hole. Ester C is not a cure, it simply makes HD liveable in most cases so the dogs definitely should not be bred.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would agree with most of it Connie. I don't think they have a clue as to what causes HD and this is where I disagree. I think most is misdiagnosed and the vast majority is a post natal trauma largely caused by removing the dogs from their natual environment and putting them in the house on hard flat surfaces instead of a rounded hole. Ester C is not a cure, it simply makes HD liveable in most cases so the dogs definitely should not be bred.


Do you think that much of HD would have been there but "silent" had it not been for the floor, etc., trauma?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hip Dysplasia is an anomaility so I can't see any method of healing it once it's been diagnosed.

If arthrose is present, a good thing is to give it "Devil's Claw" for cox-arthrose (hip arthrose) either in plant extract or in homeopathic form which can relieve the pain. I can't see how Vitamin C can help but I wouldn't condemn it.

As to how much is attributable to heritability and how much to enviromental influences, I wouldn't know. But a pup that is completely free from HD can climb steps, go for long walks, jump, etc. but no one knows this when one buys a puppy so I feel the best thing is to tread gently without being over cautious. A good dosage is 1 minute exercise per week age, i.e. at 8 weeks it should have 8 minutes exercise at a time. I'm truly daft maybe, but I carry my pups to the nearby woods and let them run around as they wish. Some people take their pups for a walk and say, well it's ok he kept following me - whatever chance did it have otherwise?

A pup that hasn't got perfect hips can get steadily worse by being taken for long walks, made to jump before it's fully deveolped, etc. etc.

Our Fila was very well muscled which helped him as he got older as he had middling hip displasia but lived to be 14,5. Our vet said that despite the X-Ray results, each dog has it's own history of how it copes.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you think that much of HD would have been there but "silent" had it not been for the floor, etc., trauma?


Connie, I don't think you would be seeing near as much"HD" if the dogs were left to whelp in their normal way. Mom never layed on them or layed on their hips, stepped on them. When they all piled up for warmth, the hole was concave and probably soft on the bottom so it did not tend to spread the hip. Most damage of hips and such that result in one hip being damaged is trauma. I would expect both hips to be bad if it were genetic. It just doesn't wash and to many are are a free ride studing it. Can't see the forrest for the tree's so to speak.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Connie, I don't think you would be seeing near as much"HD" if the dogs were left to whelp in their normal way. Mom never layed on them or layed on their hips, stepped on them. When they all piled up for warmth, the hole was concave and probably soft on the bottom so it did not tend to spread the hip. Most damage of hips and such that result in one hip being damaged is trauma. I would expect both hips to be bad if it were genetic. It just doesn't wash and to many are are a free ride studing it. Can't see the forrest for the tree's so to speak.


Very interesting!

Do wolves and other wild canids have far less HD?


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Thanks, Don, for posting that.
> 
> Would you personally agree with the concluding paragraph:
> 
> QUOTE: Hip dysplasia is at least partially inheritable. And it is not a simple, single-gene defect. There is now concern that dysplastic dogs returned to mobility may also be returned to reproduction, which would further spread the malady. It is fair to say that there appears to be a great deal of hope for the benefits of Vitamin C, but before administering the vitamin to your dog, consult your veterinarian. And until more is known, don't breed that dog. END


I dont breed. I dont know enough about genetics and such to feel comfertable doing so. Which is another reason as soon as I recieved my 2 puppies they were fixed. I dont want to pass on their bad genes to anyone else.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I thought this would be a good thread to post this article on. FYI, Ester C is cheap. I just picked up 300 tablets, 500 ml, for 10 bucks at Costco. You can't beat that. It also bolsters thye immune system. I picked the tablets up for me....not the dogs. The last couple of paragraphs tells you it is not a cure all but, it beats asprin and most other things. If all these dogs are running and playing, they have little pain involved. I am goping to have to put it up in two parts also..


Thank you for all of the info I will def. add this to my shopping cart this week!


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## Rick Ma (Jul 4, 2008)

Make sure that the x-rays were taken correctly. Check out this article -> http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm


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