# Is there a difference



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Between a naturally protective dog and a protection dog?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes. Thanks for asking.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I thought so. My pleasue.LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I agree that there is as well...


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I guess the difference the majority of the time would be that a protection dog is trained to bite and will bite to protect without hesitation. A dog that is naturally protective might want to protect his owner but may not have the nerve, or maybe he will bite but will not stay on. Just my thoughts. And before everyone goes haywire, I know that there are many "protection dogs" that would not bite if needed.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree that the dogs are trained to bite and they are obedience trained. What I have to wonder is....are they biting to protect you, themselves, or just because in all the scenarios they have learned what is expected of them when a bad guy comes running up to you yelling.. I wonder how many bad guys come running up to a guy on the street that is sporting a 100 lb rottie on a leash. Actually, I think it is far more likeey a good friend will come running up to say hello. Same thing with the car jacking. What kind of nut case is going to come running up to a car with an 85lb dobbie sitting in the front seat. Once again, much more likely a friend will see your car and come over saying "HIee" in a hi pitch loud voice. Several have said, Oh, you can't keep a DS or a mal around kids. This is why I am wondering if they are truly just bite trained or do you really think a dog that bites the ones he is protecting has any protective instict. I am just thinking outloud here so don't stroke out. How does anyone consider a dog that may attack hios charges as instictually protective. Something soesn't compute here. Or am I missing something. ....and I don't think it has to do with training.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree that the dogs are trained to bite and they are obedience trained. What I have to wonder is....are they biting to protect you, themselves, or just because in all the scenarios they have learned what is expected of them when a bad guy comes running up to you yelling.. I wonder how many bad guys come running up to a guy on the street that is sporting a 100 lb rottie on a leash. Actually, I think it is far more likeey a good friend will come running up to say hello. Same thing with the car jacking. What kind of nut case is going to come running up to a car with an 85lb dobbie sitting in the front seat. Once again, much more likely a friend will see your car and come over saying "HIee" in a hi pitch loud voice. Several have said, Oh, you can't keep a DS or a mal around kids. This is why I am wondering if they are truly just bite trained or do you really think a dog that bites the ones he is protecting has any protective instict. I am just thinking outloud here so don't stroke out. How does anyone consider a dog that may attack hios charges as instictually protective. Something soesn't compute here. Or am I missing something. ....and I don't think it has to do with training.


What do I do if I've got my dobie in the passenger seat and the
car jacker comes to the driver window instead of the passenger?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> What do I do if I've got my dobie in the passenger seat and the
> car jacker comes to the driver window instead of the passenger?


Hopefully lean back and let your dog get by. LOL But, he has never had someone approach from that side so you better shoot the guy.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> What do I do if I've got my dobie in the passenger seat and the
> car jacker comes to the driver window instead of the passenger?


Most people that carjack are not ride in the head and what I mean are under the influence of something and don't care whats in your car because usually there sporting a firearm and we all know no dogs is as bad as a bullet so don't even attempt to argue that one folks that think you have wonder dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Most people that carjack are not ride in the head and what I mean are under the influence of something and don't care whats in your car because usually there sporting a firearm and we all know no dogs is as bad as a bullet so don't even attempt to argue that one folks that think you have wonder dog.


So what are you saying Harry, training a protection dog is a waste of time as far as a car jacking scenario. How about a mugging where 1, 2, or 3 guys got guns?. Home invasion where they all got guns? 

Any opinions on protection dogs that you can't have around the members of the very family they are supposed to be protectiing? I think thios is kind of what Al was trying to coney in a post and he seriously got me thinking. I can't really see a dog that is aquired as an asset and to protect the family being a danger to that family. Personally, I don't think many of these dogs are actually protecting anyone. They are just trained to bite and hopefully, who to bite.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

> Between a naturally protective dog and a protection dog?


Practice


Who is a better fighter, a guy who likes to fight but never has, or a guy who practices fighting all the time


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Same differance between a natural parent and a person who just has kids, plenty of practice but its not natural just a job, it's not instinctual. I've seen some pathetic self absorbed parents one with 5 kids and stilll can't figure out how to be a mother. A dog nurtured in defence, does that make him naturally protective if he only feels a personal threat, what if the threat is never directed at the dog and he never feels the need for defense?
A fighter can practice all he want's doesn't make it natural or instinctive and as soon as the scenario differs from practice he's not sure about what he's doing, as aposed to the instinctive fighter who simply reacts to the situation. the reason why fixed forms of martial arts don't really work in real life, a parralel to a lot of dog training, your fixed into a routine or reading off a script very hard to improvise if the situation changes and it's not natural. 
Don I believe this was like chapter 1 in Koehlers book, maybe 2.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So what are you saying Harry, training a protection dog is a waste of time as far as a car jacking scenario. How about a mugging where 1, 2, or 3 guys got guns?. Home invasion where they all got guns?
> 
> Any opinions on protection dogs that you can't have around the members of the very family they are supposed to be protectiing? I think thios is kind of what Al was trying to coney in a post and he seriously got me thinking. I can't really see a dog that is aquired as an asset and to protect the family being a danger to that family. Personally, I don't think many of these dogs are actually protecting anyone. They are just trained to bite and hopefully, who to bite.


I would say my or my wifes chances of getting car jacked with my dog in the car are better to win power ball lotto 3 XXX and for someone to do a home invasion would be 4 XXXX


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

> Any opinions on protection dogs that you can't have around the members of the very family they are supposed to be protectiing? I think thios is kind of what Al was trying to coney in a post and he seriously got me thinking. I can't really see a dog that is aquired as an asset and to protect the family being a danger to that family. Personally, I don't think many of these dogs are actually protecting anyone. They are just trained to bite and hopefully, who to bite.


Well, the dog is pretty damn useless if it's in a kennel during the home invasion. 
It could be the most bad-ass dog on the street, but if it can't get to someone buglarizing your home or terrorizing your family, it's as worthless as having a pet rabbit for protection - well unless you're in a Monty Python film.

I just want my dog to bark. In the 2 attempted break-in's I've had, her just being there was enough to make them think twice and abandon their project. It was also enough to wake me up both times at 2 AM and be prepared to have to defend myself. 

It's like having a car alarm. Will a car alarm prevent your car from being stolen 100%? No, but it damn sure keeps the majority of people from attempting it. 
Kind of like this, my ex had his truck parked in my driveway right next to my car. His truck doesn't have an alarm, but my car does - and it has this stupid flashing light that blinks "THEFT" when it's armed. They broke into his truck and stole everything in it, while they didn't touch my car which had a lot more cool shit to steal. They went for the easy target that they could do quietly and not get caught, not the car that was going to wake up a 3 block radius.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Kind of like this, my ex had his truck parked in my driveway right next to my car. His truck doesn't have an alarm, but my car does - and it has this stupid flashing light that blinks "THEFT" when it's armed. They broke into his truck and stole everything in it, while they didn't touch my car which had a lot more cool shit to steal. They went for the easy target that they could do quietly and not get caught, not the car that was going to wake up a 3 block radius.


 Good analogy Should have motion detectors that bark


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I didn't initially read this thread, but now that I have, I think it is a good point of discussion. Far deeper than the "potty train" type threads. 

With my limited ability to convey what I am thinking, I will give it a shot. 

I think there is definitely a difference between a dog "trained" to protect than a dog that is protective by nature and instinct. 

I think that there are some that are breeding for super hard dogs, that just want to bite regardless of the situation, as well as people breeding for social dogs that have to be "whipped up" to bite. 
Then, there are the few, that want to be true to and better the breed and are breeding dogs to be what the "standard" is supposed to be or how the breed originally was supposed to be.

Breeding for one specific thing or the other takes away from the other characteristics of the breed IMHO. 

I think that this discussion would be better if there were more willing to go deeper than the one sentence answers. This is a discussion board about working dogs. 

When I was young, our neighbor had a GSD that followed me all over the neighborhood. Sitting in my backyard one day, I mouthed off to Dad and he walked over and jerked me up to spank me, "Thor" opened his arm up from elbow to wrist. Dad sat me back down and said "I will deal with you later" (I know I have posted this before, sorry). 

That, to me, is the definition of a naturally protective dog. He held on and shook dads arm, he did not bite and back off. When he released, he stayed between dad and I. 

He was always friendly to dad, even after that. He just would not let people mess with me, BUT, I could play and wrestle and whatever with him there, he seemed to "sense" the difference. 

If someone were to come after me with my current dogs, one would deal with it, and one would sit there and watch. Both have done bite work in a defense type situation. And both dogs are social with people. I am not sure about the other two yet.

There, I have put enough out here to hang myself with....LOL


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

No I mean that if somebody wants something really bad and are willing to go to full extent of their life no dog is going to prevent it from happening especially in most violent crimes the perp is going to be in possesion of a knife or gun. Yea a dog might get a bite in until the next step coming from the crime commiter. Then what you going to do when your dog as passed on and this person continues on with what he was planning on. I guess I will put it like this you don't bring a knife to a gun fight so why would you bring a dog. Don't get me wrong there is use for a PPD but that use is only there if hes got nothing to rebutle against your dog. Most the time a big bad ass dog barking will do the job 75% of the time, another 20% to a bite being needed leaving that 5% to no matter if your dog bites you better have something else in mind for protection. Best thing to do is pick up the phone and call 911 even if you have capabilities of protecting yourself against a armed robbery.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Numbers have never been in the favor of the homeowner and usually the robber gets the upper hand when the homeowner trys to take things into his own hands, You know why because that homeowner doesn't have the mentality of the mad men robbing you as much as many of you might think until your in that situation many of you will freak out first than react. In that time of freaking the robber has got the upper hand on you. Sorry folks your not as hard as you think you are, truth hurts so always provide yourself safe cover by any means and wait for the cavalry.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Sorry folks your not as hard as you think you are, truth hurts so always provide yourself safe cover by any means and wait for the cavalry.


I am....I would not hesitate to shoot someone's ass that was intent on causing harm....dog or no dog!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> I am....I would not hesitate to shoot someone's ass that was intent on causing harm....dog or no dog!


 
I'm with Carol. I'm shooting first, asking questions later. 

The dog should only be one layer of self protection. I don't think anyone with a stable mind, just whistles threw their day in la la land, thinking their doggy will save the say. Motion sensor lights, alarms, self defense, guns and many other things should be part of your routine. 

Power can be cut, leaving lights and alarms useless. Guns may be in a closet or on the dresser, out of reach. Stacking the odds in your favore is all anyone can do.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> I am....I would not hesitate to shoot someone's ass that was intent on causing harm....dog or no dog!


 
:-D


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I grew up with a dog that was naturally protective. I haven't had the pleasure of owning many that I knew would kick ass at the drop of a hat, only in the right situation. I wish they all popped out that way. Now I just resort to trained dogs.

I'm seriously thinking of trying that breed again, too see if I get the same results.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> I am....I would not hesitate to shoot someone's ass that was intent on causing harm....dog or no dog!





Michelle Kehoe said:


> I'm with Carol. I'm shooting first, asking questions later.
> 
> The dog should only be one layer of self protection. I don't think anyone with a stable mind, just whistles threw their day in la la land, thinking their doggy will save the say. Motion sensor lights, alarms, self defense, guns and many other things should be part of your routine.
> 
> Power can be cut, leaving lights and alarms useless. Guns may be in a closet or on the dresser, out of reach. Stacking the odds in your favore is all anyone can do.


Thats good of you ladies if you got it in you, just understand your local laws:-D


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

This is the very topic I was trying to convey months ago regarding the sarplainac mountain dog. But yet again, that thread took a life of its own and was ran into the ground](*,)
There is no doubt that each breed of dog has its own heritable traits in this regard. Molossor breeds like the sar, ovcharka, neos and even rotts think differently and are motivated differently then say a gsd, mal, dutchie etc.. I think we can all agree there is a difference here right?
But many of you all just refer to that protective/defensive trait as being a nerve bag. There is a reason for that defensive characteristic. They are surveying the situation and can't be forced to bite on command if they do not feel a bite or any other expenditure of energy is necessary. I have seen it in the sarps over and again. 
I can only speak for the sar, because I have one and because I have worked with them in recent years. But what I can say is that they do seem to make choices and decisions based on what they perceive as a threat. 
From what I see, they tend to respond rather than react. What we perceive as a threat and our attempt to convince them that it is a threat is a whole other scenario. It makes them challenging to train because of this. 
There is an offensive line and a defensive line and each have their importance in the big picture of the game. I see the mals and the gsd as the first string offensive line and the dogo's and rotts etc..the front line of defense. The ultimate in dogdome is to find that individual that can equally and effectively display both as needed as per the situation right?:-k
Kerry


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats good of you ladies if you got it in you, just understand your local laws:-D


I really don't give 2 shits about the law. If your here, inside, uninvited, and I am scared, your getting some holes.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Depends on where you live if calling 911 first is effective or not. Last time I did, the cops took 30 minutes to respond (same one that was scared off by the dog) and the dispatcher wants you to stay on the phone with them - which I don't want to do, I want to keep quiet so they don't know where I'm at and I have the element of surprise when I shove the gun in their face. That puts the whole ordeal back onto my turf and gives me an advantage because who's scared now?

I cleared the house before the cops showed up...alone, and my mom was here with me and froze up in panic. I'm not about to sit in my room and be scared that someone might still be in the house, because at my house, it's not just me who needs to be protected.

Also, I keep my cell phone and pistol on my headboard, and am completely able to find both without the use of lighting. You could ask my ex what happened the last time he deployed and thought when he came home on leave that he'd surprise me - I put the fear of God into him because he scared me coming in the house late at night when I know that NOBODY should be coming in.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I really don't give 2 shits about the law. If your here, inside, uninvited, and I am scared, your getting some holes.


Well good luck to ya and hope your never in that predictmentO


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I put the fear of God into him because he scared me coming in the house late at night when I know that NOBODY should be coming in.



The the fear of God greater or lesser than the fear of Ashely? :wink:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I really don't give 2 shits about the law. If your here, inside, uninvited, and I am scared, your getting some holes.





Harry Keely said:


> Well good luck to ya and hope your never in that predictmentO


Pssttt...Michelle, toss the TV on top of them!! (and if they are outside, drag them inside....LOL) 

I'm with Michelle, Harry. 
I live out in the country and my county is 80 square miles. 3 deputies (one on duty at a time) and 2 police officers (that don't play well with the county, so response is sketchy).....

If I am out here, alone, and someone comes in uninvited, they will meet the business end of whichever firearm I grab. Could be a rifle, or most likely it will be my Kimber, Glock or Sig. I am a above average shot and I don't take kindly to being harassed. 

When Doug and I first moved in together, his son was going to come out here and scare me at Halloween while Doug was on a business trip. 
Needless to say, Doug said not to, because he KNOWS me well. 
he got to keep his son that night. LOL 

(the above is true, BUT, I want to say...I would NEVER come out shooting blindly...I have been trained to assess situations and act accordingly, don't want ya all to think I am some scared girl with rapid fire tendencies...LOL)

I like the dogs for alerting purposes, I put too much time and effort and I love them too much to take the chance at them "protecting". If they do they do, and if they don't, I will!!!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have naturally protective dogs. Maybe. They like to bark and in the car, they make scary faces at strangers. Enough to stop my friend from wanting to get in when I stopped to give her a lift. Not enough to stop the weird ass freak who approached my car at a stoplight early one morning to say hi to the dogs. 

Two have some bite training, one has none. I have no idea if they would protect me in a bad situation. I'm just hoping that if they're enough to a bad guy move along to someone else.

I worked a few 'protection trained' dogs when I was a K9 security guard. Most of the dogs they gave me to work I wouldn't trust to protect me. I sure wasn't heading down to the underground parking garage to look for troublemakers with any of those dogs. Visual deterrent only, if that. 

I had one good dog at the first company I worked. I truly believe he would have tried to protect me in any situation. He wanted to be a good dog and do his job, but no idea if he really had it in him to stay in a serious fight. Glad I never had to find out. 

I met a woman at a dog show with a Setter dog. She had just been to court recently because her dog did some serious damage to a burglar that tried to sneak in through a basement window (and being Canada, he sued) A ****ing Setter. Go figure - the world's least likely guard dog and definitely not protection trained.

I think you never really know until you find yourself in that situation. Just like people, some dogs will step up and fight, some will freeze, and some will just run.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> The the fear of God greater or lesser than the fear of Ashely? :wink:


Lesser for sure. God is forgiving, I'm not.  I woke up to the front door opening (didn't own a dog back then) and turned the corner drawn down on him...

His comment was "Great, I go to Iraq and come home and get shot in my own home".


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Interesting conversation.

I have one dog, some kind of bulldog cross, who several people think would step up and take care of business if there were ever a need. This is the same dog who had some conflict with the man-work early on and didn't really see a "reason" to bring it to the decoy. He's gotten a lot better than he was, but even now it is clearly one big game to him. He is neither serious nor hard in my personal opinion. From what I have seen from him at training, I doubt this dog would do anything if a real situation arose.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think that anyone that truly needs a protection dog had better be willing to carry arms. 
One of my dogs is very "protective" of the car, the yard, me and the family.
I put the word "protective" in quotes because,often times, it's nothing more then barrier aggression. Barrier aggression ,IMHO, is related to being possessive, not protective behavior.
I do believe he would bite. I have no idea or desire/reason to find out if he would stay engaged. More likely not but Missouri has wonderful CC laws in addition to great Castle laws.


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## Michael Swetz (Jul 27, 2009)

I know I'm a simple dirty noob when it comes to working dogs and as such I don't post much. 

That said, I'm a reasonable person (then again everyone thinks that) and someone that grew up with firearms and did martial arts (everything from old school karate to the martial art de jour of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu since I was 9). The way I see it is this: real world life or death scenarios that would require "protection" from harm in one form or another are highly variable and highly stressful. 

It's difficult to impossible to predict how even human beings will react to such a situation. One study (or something I vaguely recall or I even made up) said that people fall into 3 groups: people that can remain calm and act rationally and appropriately in such circumstances, people that cannot act under their own volition, but that can act under direction, and people completely incapable of action under such circumstances. 

As such, I don't think it's really possible to say a dog will do X in situation Y. I've come across dozens of people who "know Duke would protect them if need be because he sensed I didn't trust the guy we saw at Petsmart and barked at him" and plenty of people who have seen "badass dogs run off the field." 

That said I think there are dogs all along the spectrum from those that would fight a threat without any training to those that would flee regardless of training. However, many are probably in the middle and benefit from training. Just like most people aren't cut out to be SWAT officers, but all other things equal the person that went through SWAT training would be more well prepared for a real life situation than someone that did not.

Again, I know I don't know my ass from the hole in the ground so feel free to tell me to shut the f*ck up. (Paging Jeff O. Paging Jeff O.)


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Good post Michael. I like the Pet Smart reference......


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I watched people melt when I was in boot camp. Everyone thinks they can shoot another human being, but that just simply isn't true. I also think that people that count on a dog are a bit goofy. 

However, since the situation where a really dangerous person is out there is pretty rare, you will always hear a lot of horse shit from people about this that and the other.

If you have a dog that will do the job, the odds of you finding that out are rediculously small. However, I do know a few that will go out of their way to walk around a really bad neighborhood at night (or so they have said) to test the dog out.

I have lived in neighborhoods that were not great, had to go through some that were shit, and sometimes I had the dogs and sometimes I did not. Still here, amazingly enough. 

In the end, blabbering about this kind of crap is pointless. You are not going to ever find out if your dog is real, and more than likely, you are not going to find out how big a screaming ****** (or not) you are when faced with the likely hood of imminent death.

Why I respond to this silly shit I do not know. I should save this so I can reuse it in 9 months.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Michael, I agree. There really isn't a way to predict how anyone of us would respond if confronted with a completely unexpected situation especially one that put us in harms way. Over the summer, I had an encounter with a brown bear sow and two cubs. Within a matter of seconds it went from a situation on a river bank flanked by 6' tall grasses and weeds where my dog crossed over to chase an otter to her being on the other side in the grass with a bear huffing at her. I've been in these situations a few times but it was completely unexpected and it took a good 10-15 seconds to register just what was going on. Any longer and I expect my dog would have been killed and if not there would have been enough time for them to circle back around behind us and box us in. 

Life is like that sometimes. Someone shows up at your door or appears as you load your groceries into your car and then you are left with a moment of needing to register just what has occurred. Despite what I think I would do if I were prepared, I really haven't the slightest idea what I'd do if I weren't.

And yeah Jeff, save it. This discussion circles back around about every 6 months and your points will be just as valid when it comes up again.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I watched people melt when I was in boot camp. Everyone thinks they can shoot another human being, but that just simply isn't true. I also think that people that count on a dog are a bit goofy.
> 
> However, since the situation where a really dangerous person is out there is pretty rare, you will always hear a lot of horse shit from people about this that and the other.
> 
> ...


yes, be sure to save it because someone will need to explain what the original post was about in the first place.....:roll:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Between a naturally protective dog and a protection dog?


Or, more precisely



Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree that the dogs are trained to bite and they are obedience trained. What I have to wonder is....are they biting to protect you, themselves, or just because in all the scenarios they have learned what is expected of them when a bad guy comes running up to you yelling.. I wonder how many bad guys come running up to a guy on the street that is sporting a 100 lb rottie on a leash. Actually, I think it is far more likeey a good friend will come running up to say hello. Same thing with the car jacking. What kind of nut case is going to come running up to a car with an 85lb dobbie sitting in the front seat. Once again, much more likely a friend will see your car and come over saying "HIee" in a hi pitch loud voice. Several have said, Oh, you can't keep a DS or a mal around kids. This is why I am wondering if they are truly just bite trained or do you really think a dog that bites the ones he is protecting has any protective instict. I am just thinking outloud here so don't stroke out. How does anyone consider a dog that may attack hios charges as instictually protective. Something soesn't compute here. Or am I missing something. ....and I don't think it has to do with training.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

A real natural protective dog ................


This one does not even utter a bark for fear of not getting to bite.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Lesser for sure. God is forgiving, I'm not.  I woke up to the front door opening (didn't own a dog back then) and turned the corner drawn down on him...
> 
> His comment was "Great, I go to Iraq and come home and get shot in my own home".


do you mind walking around on a leash and sleeping in a cage? I promise to give you fresh water and a big bowl of raw meat every day. I'll let you beat up bad men at least three days a week. 

Who needs a PP dog when you can have a PP Ashley?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Heres a perfect movie clip for all of you that think your John Wayne with a hint of Rambo in ya. This is probally the reality and your outcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czb4jn5y94g


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> A real natural protective dog ................
> 
> 
> This one does not even utter a bark for fear of not getting to bite.


Oh yeh Jerry, that is the kind of dog I can appreciate...but don't they lose points for not putting on a show that is perceived as bad or something???


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Last month we hit a drug house that had a pet APBT. When the first SWAT team member went in (after flash banging the place) the dog attacked the officer and had him by the ballistic vest. Dog took three rounds before letting go. This dog was a neutered pound rescue and had only been there less than a year. No prior bite training as far as I know. Like it's already been said...you'll never know till it happens. All the neighbors knew the dog and said it was friendly.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks for getting back to dogs Howard. LOL Sounds like a good dog, hard to believe he wan't bite trained. LOL


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Last month we hit a drug house that had a pet APBT. When the first SWAT team member went in (after flash banging the place) the dog attacked the officer and had him by the ballistic vest. Dog took three rounds before letting go. This dog was a neutered pound rescue and had only been there less than a year. No prior bite training as far as I know. Like it's already been said...you'll never know till it happens. All the neighbors knew the dog and said it was friendly.



and this story posted here about a month ago


A family pet dog has chased masked armed men from a house during a raid, police said.

Three men burst into the house on Pepperwood Drive in Winstanley, near Wigan, Greater Manchester, around 10.25pm on Friday while the family were in the living room watching television.

The commotion caused the family dog, a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, to attack one of the offenders and bite his leg.

The would-be thief was carrying a handgun and struck the dog, at which point the daughter of the homeowners, 22, got up to protect the animal.

The gunman then struck her several times in the head with the weapon, causing a cut that needed gluing. The dog continued to bite the offender, causing the gang to flee from the house empty-handed.

But the dog gave chase, forcing the man to drop his gun in the garden, and pulled the offender to the ground, but he was able to struggle free and ran off down a footpath.

Det Chief Insp Howard Millington of Greater Manchester Police, said: "Unless you have been through this sort of ordeal, it is impossible to know how this family is feeling having had the sanctity of their home invaded by three cowards carrying guns. To attack a defenceless young woman who was protecting her dog with a pistol is a shameful act and these men need to be caught and spend years looking at the four walls of a jail cell.

"We are conducting house-to-house inquiries in the area to try and establish the movements of these men before and after the incident, and I want to assure both the family and members of the community who will rightly be appalled that my officers will be doing all they can to find the culprits, arrest them and bring them to justice. I also want to appeal to the public to help us."

The first raider was described as white, about 5ft 7in tall and wearing a dark blue hooded top, jeans and trainers. The second was also white, in his late teens to early 20s and wearing a grey hooded top and had dark hair. The third was white and wearing a dark hooded top, light trousers and trainers. All had balaclavas.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The neighborhood wasn't too bad. No-one said the dog was bite trained. A friend of our family has a son who knew one of the residents of the house. This same friend knows I train dogs. He 's met the dog before and never hinted that the scumbags were training the dog for protection. Anyway...if you'd have seen the scumbags they could barely stay awake long enough to go get their next beer, nevermind training a dog.

I was sent to check on the dog after the incident. It didn't die right away and the Lt. wanted me to determine if it needed to go to the vet. Sadly, it expired shortly afterwards. I kinda felt bad for the thing. He didn't choose to be with scumbags. He surely didn't deserve to die for them. The SWAT officer felt bad for days. He's a dog lover as well and he did what he had to do.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

^ related note, my first dog I tried to work with (trainer pretty much used just koehler style defense from the start), was a little staffy bull from a old church lady show breeder (my dad has him now and he is coming up on 14 and doing well), he came right out and did really well, good biting awesome little guy

my next dog was a female AB from 'working' lines and she had nothing in her


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Oh yeh Jerry, that is the kind of dog I can appreciate...but don't they lose points for not putting on a show that is perceived as bad or something???





Don Turnipseed said:


> Thanks for getting back to dogs Howard. LOL Sounds like a good dog, hard to believe he wan't bite trained. LOL


Is the tone I'm getting from some of your posts that a dog that bites but is performance trained is some what less in your opinion or just having a good dog that's trained good or polished and sport trained trouble you.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

In the case I wrote about, it just happened to be a APBT. In 20 years of police work, going to hundreds of aggressive dog calls that were allegedly "Pit Bulls", I never had one try to attack me. Usually it's the little foo foo dog, Cocker, or Lab that goes for it. Too bad the media gives the PB such a bad rap. Great dogs. IME vastly docile and loving. I'm sure this one was the same way but took great offense, and acted upon, to someone barging into his home.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Is the tone I'm getting from some of your posts that a dog that bites but is performance trained is some what less in your opinion or just having a good dog that's trained good or polished and sport trained trouble you.


If my tone bothers you Mike, how come the tone of many of the trainers of bitework that say dogs won't bite unless they are trained to do it regardless of what people think doesn't phase you. What you may hear in my tone is sarcasm. I know a lot of dogs that will bite This thread was started to establish the difference between, dogs that have to be trained and dogs that are natural protectors. A lot of both sides won't bite. Also, if a dog is considered a protection dog, why is it not safe around the family members it is supposed to protect. 

My brother that recently retired from working in a prison here was reading some of the latest threads here while at my house. He asked me why I waste so much of my time with these discussions when so many people have tried to get me to write a book on breeding. He is of the opinion I am wasting my time here. I told him everyone writes books about dogs and most are BS. I told him I would rather write a book looking from view of how people understand dogs today and how they arrive at the rational that a family protection dog is unsafe around family members. How when a dog is trained to bite it has to bite a certain way on a suit when all dogs know how to bite and no one, that dog will be biting in real life, is going to be wearing a suit. About how people reason that they may be mugged walking down the street with a 100 ln rottie hanging on their arm. You could walk any rottie down the street and reduce the likley hood of being attacked. How putting a dog through the same scenario 100 times makes it a bite dog when you you can't change decoys or field without blowing 90% of the protection dogs out of the water. This same reasoning says dogs won't protect naturally????? I think working dog owners would make a better book personally. Sorry about the sarcasm you may have detected. I will just go back to reading the posts and stay out of it. Your first post was realistic by the way.....and right along what I am saying.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> In the case I wrote about, it just happened to be a APBT. In 20 years of police work, going to hundreds of aggressive dog calls that were allegedly "Pit Bulls", I never had one try to attack me. Usually it's the little foo foo dog, Cocker, or Lab that goes for it. Too bad the media gives the PB such a bad rap. Great dogs. IME vastly docile and loving. I'm sure this one was the same way but took great offense, and acted upon, to someone barging into his home.


When I was a kid and delivered papers and later when I picked up garbage the ankle biters were the worst some had the balls to go for ya head on and if you didn't punt them hard and hurt them they would be back the large majority all you had to do is walk back wards and they would hold there distance.
I did get a static bite from a big sable GSD that gave me 4 nice holes.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Don Ill get back on your post weather is getting shitty I just came in for a quick cup of coffee


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Don Ill get back on your post weather is getting shitty I just came in for a quick cup of coffee


No hurry Mike, I am back to observing. Be aware though, no sarcasm was directed at you or many others. I enjoy your posts and they are down to earth...and a bit sacastic when things get stupid. LOL 

The weather her has finally turned to shit also. Poured all nigh into the morning. Getting a short break right now and then it is supposed to snow and drop into the twenties(for the first time this year). 

I am going out to spend some more time with the dogs while it is not pouring. :wink:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> In the case I wrote about, it just happened to be a APBT. In 20 years of police work, going to hundreds of aggressive dog calls that were allegedly "Pit Bulls", I never had one try to attack me. Usually it's the little foo foo dog, Cocker, or Lab that goes for it. Too bad the media gives the PB such a bad rap. Great dogs. IME vastly docile and loving. I'm sure this one was the same way but took great offense, and acted upon, to someone barging into his home.


Thats the truth Howard, no joke my wifes grandmother has three little i quillo taco bell dogs and everytime we go there they will try or have sucessfully bit and hung on to my pant legs or boots. You can never judge a book by its cover and that book has left a impression on you.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> If my tone bothers you Mike, how come the tone of many of the trainers of bitework that say dogs won't bite unless they are trained to do it regardless of what people think doesn't phase you. What you may hear in my tone is sarcasm. I know a lot of dogs that will bite This thread was started to establish the difference between, dogs that have to be trained and dogs that are natural protectors. A lot of both sides won't bite. Also, if a dog is considered a protection dog, why is it not safe around the family members it is supposed to protect.
> 
> My brother that recently retired from working in a prison here was reading some of the latest threads here while at my house. He asked me why I waste so much of my time with these discussions when so many people have tried to get me to write a book on breeding. He is of the opinion I am wasting my time here. I told him everyone writes books about dogs and most are BS. I told him I would rather write a book looking from view of how people understand dogs today and how they arrive at the rational that a family protection dog is unsafe around family members. How when a dog is trained to bite it has to bite a certain way on a suit when all dogs know how to bite and no one, that dog will be biting in real life, is going to be wearing a suit. About how people reason that they may be mugged walking down the street with a 100 ln rottie hanging on their arm. You could walk any rottie down the street and reduce the likley hood of being attacked. How putting a dog through the same scenario 100 times makes it a bite dog when you you can't change decoys or field without blowing 90% of the protection dogs out of the water. This same reasoning says dogs won't protect naturally????? I think working dog owners would make a better book personally. Sorry about the sarcasm you may have detected. I will just go back to reading the posts and stay out of it. Your first post was realistic by the way.....and right along what I am saying.


Don my breed of choice is a protector not a aggressor if you have to watch and worry about the German Shepherd biting people that ain't supposed to get bit because the dog is this way out of the box naturally it has improper temperament its nervy or to sharp. 
Should the dog be pulled out of the gene pool maybe not depends on the dogs character maintaining the working GSD is a balancing act since it meant to be a utility dog there shouldnt be much for any one extreme so this dog that's edgy and mean could and should be bred with a certain bitch that may be lacking in what this dog may have to offer. 
Schutzhund started out as a breed test for breeders to test and show there stock different temperaments, types and what not were exhibited and assessed by a judge and the breeders themselves and consumers and still are to this day.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Between a naturally protective dog and a protection dog?


yes. i dont think most people care though. most people are end users they are trainers not breeders. they dont really care about the genetics as long as they can be trained to do what they want.

one of my hobbies is growing vegetables. i only grow open polinated heirlooms. if i was looking for production i would grow hybrids and baby the plants along. thats not my goal. my goal is making a better plant for next year. most people only care about production.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

One of my hobbies is growing vegetables. I only grow openly gay heirlooms. if i was looking for production I would grow he/she hybrids and baby boink the plants along. thats not my goal. my goal is making a gayer plant for next year. Most people only care about gay production today.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

gerry- a woman that drinks alone will more tham likely stay alone. go out and find a man.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

That is profound, 

Look..the Pumpkins are crying :razz:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Don my breed of choice is a protector not a aggressor if you have to watch and worry about the German Shepherd biting people that ain't supposed to get bit because the dog is this way out of the box naturally it has improper temperament its nervy or to sharp.
> Should the dog be pulled out of the gene pool maybe not depends on the dogs character maintaining the working GSD is a balancing act since it meant to be a utility dog there shouldnt be much for any one extreme so this dog that's edgy and mean could and should be bred with a certain bitch that may be lacking in what this dog may have to offer.
> Schutzhund started out as a breed test for breeders to test and show there stock different temperaments, types and what not were exhibited and assessed by a judge and the breeders themselves and consumers and still are to this day.


I understand what you are saying Mike, but I disagree with the breeding philosphy. I know you here it from people, all the time but it is bad breeding practice to breed one dog that isn't what want to another that isn't what you want in hopes of getting what you do want. Without getting technical, you get 25% of being one dog you don't want and 25% of the other dog that doesn't have it and the other 50% can be a mixture of anything and everywhere in between. Now you have to find the one that is closest. You end up with 90% being what you have no use for the way I see it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Between a naturally protective dog and a protection dog?



Yes. 

I have heard and hear regularly about how a dog will protect its owner (I like the reference earlier to Pet Smart) and my conclusion was that people just don't know what they are talking about, except for nasty dogs that will bite almost anyone. I still hold that opinion for the most part, but I have seen a couple dogs, and have one, that bit, on his own, in a training environment full and convincing once he saw the man as a threat. It took three sessions for him to even care about the guy in front of him (no avoidance behaviors). Third time, he bit and held like he had been doing it all his life, once the guy threatened him seriously and put a sleeve on, and stepped into the circle with him. I still don't assume that he will bite in all situations, or on command at this point. Context is how they learn, and if the context is what he perceives as a threat (which he had naturally), or something close to what we have trained now, he'll perform well.

The thought crossed my mind that he had been doing it in his previous home, but I checked with them, and believe them, after seeing some of his behaviors in biting, RE equipment that he hasn't. 

The more pressure (so far) that he gets put on him, the harder he fights. He is a little thrashy and not at all sporty about what he's doing, but he's clear headed. Still likes people, but I am more careful with him, as he does pay more attention to what's going on now. He is prepping for a PSA PDC now and we'll see how he does in a week or two. I like PSA, because although the exercises are learned, they teach a dog to be more protective in a context that is closer than what a backyard superstar may get prior to a biting encounter. In a car, on a new field. (I am not bashing other sports here, anytime you get your dog out and are working it [well] in a new environment I think it increases your chances for him biting when needed). I know enough about other sports, to know that I have seen some "real" dogs in other sports, I just like PSA. I can qualify myself as someone who knows what a dog that will bite looks like because I have had a couple real bites with dogs, while working, and seen a few others do it as well.

If someone broke into my car, crazy or not, my dog would give me more time to dial 911 or draw present and shoot than if he weren't there. If they come in on my side, I can expect to get stepped on on the way past, maybe a frustration bite if he gets hung up on me and the steering wheel. If I shoot past him to stop a threat, the next one may have to be into his skull, but I suspect not, (but I have a plan as I haven't trained it). I have done enough high stress stuff to know how I react usually, and he is a plus not a minus to my personal safety while riding in the front seat with me (only drawback is if I have crash with him loose, but he has an airbag). He is a part of the plan, not THE plan. I have "what ifed" a lot and he helps. Most likely I will see the threat coming before him, as I am "switched on" more often than not. I do have my lapses, and I appreciate his help.

The one problem I have with a natural protector is that they rarely get tested, Don. I am glad you and Joby are getting to that. The difficulty I see is that no one really wants to get bit in the hands or face. So in testing it would have to be set up in such a manner that the bad guy could protect himself even in a suit, making it not as "real" to the dog. I would even put a leash on or work him through a window to see what you get first time, out of the box, with some serious threat put on him if that is what he needed to get him to bite (posture, quick forward movement, whacking the crap out of something very close to the handler to simulate a hit with a bat or stick).

Once you get to the testing, discuss what you are looking for prior to starting. For me, I want to see things that indicate a dogs willingness to get in and stay in the fight, no points for full grip here, just staying in the fight and being continuously engaged. Re-biting, pressing forward of the dog while the bad guy is in the fight. Stick hits or hits with hands make the dog get more serious, bite harder. 

While nothing we do can simulates a dog biting a man, you may as well prep for as many environmental issues the dog may encounter. A dog with seemingly rock solid nerves and a "natural protector" may just blow his anal glands in the dark on a slick floor. Just like I tell people when they get their dog tested and he shows avoidance to a threat away from their home, this is no test of what a dog will look like in their home where they are comfortable. I don't want a dog that folds under new circumstances, a back yard superstar, but for a dog to protect someones house or car, it may work enough for them to get to 911 or a gun faster. Sometimes a bark alert is better than nothing.

I see on average two dogs a month that have never bit a man or been confronted get tested to see if they'll bite, always in a new area for them. Not even sure what the percentage of these dogs that will bite are, but they rarely don't go into avoidance. Hard for an owner to see, but they need to see it and have it explained so they don't get themselves killed thinking their dog is a bad-ass and will protect them from anything, anywhere. A few will stay at the end of the line and clack their teeth, bark snarl and do a good job. Step in with a sleeve or hidden sleeve and a high percentage of these guys will not bite either. I always stop when I see avoidance behavior, and I socialize with the dog or try and work him in prey afterward, so not to leave him worse than I found him.

I have the will to fight. My dog is laying next to me in the bed. Snoring. My gun is on my night stand. I have a plan.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How much do you charge to scare the shit out of these people's dogs ?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

It doesn't come cheap...


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> In the case I wrote about, it just happened to be a APBT. In 20 years of police work, going to hundreds of aggressive dog calls that were allegedly "Pit Bulls", I never had one try to attack me. Usually it's the little foo foo dog, Cocker, or Lab that goes for it. Too bad the media gives the PB such a bad rap. Great dogs. IME vastly docile and loving. I'm sure this one was the same way but took great offense, and acted upon, to someone barging into his home.


Great post's, the breed is totally misunderstood and considering 90% of the mixed unknown breed origin dogs picked up or involved in some attacks are just called pits or pit mixes which adds fuel to the fire of ignorance about the breed.
The biggest factor IMO between the natural protector and the dogs which are trained to simulate protection is the "reality" factor. A breed like the pitbull or other true working breed like Don's dogs, is a genetic factor they instantly perceive a real threat and can distinguish it from a mock repetitious training exercise.Whch is why so many trainers say the breed (APBT) isn't good for protection work, when the simple fact is the average trainer doesn't have the skills to seriously train one properly because it doesn't need baby stages to build up its drives and confidence in most cases, there already present, now it boils down to tapping into the ability without the dog realizing it's total B.S. because what the average dog perceives as a threat this breed blows off as a joke. So showing the seriousness of the dog in a cookie cutter training routine is very difficult for the average trainer IMO. A dog trained by harnessing its defensive drives may create a threatening deterrent type dog, but will never work on the same level as a natural protector with predator instincts (offensive) and natural pack (protective) values.

The owner was a wack-job but dog protected his ass off from what he percieved as a threat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Ws9Rw5ics

I can't see any real pitbull reacting this way under the same contitions, there would have been no real threat percieved, I do blame the handler most of all in this one, he should have known his dog better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHLnjiISsOo


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Mike Valente said:


> Great post's, the breed is totally misunderstood and considering 90% of the mixed unknown breed origin dogs picked up or involved in some attacks are just called pits or pit mixes which adds fuel to the fire of ignorance about the breed.
> The biggest factor IMO between the natural protector and the dogs which are trained to simulate protection is the "reality" factor. A breed like the pitbull or other true working breed like Don's dogs, is a genetic factor they instantly perceive a real threat and can distinguish it from a mock repetitious training exercise.Whch is why so many trainers say the breed (APBT) isn't good for protection work, when the simple fact is the average trainer doesn't have the skills to seriously train one properly because it doesn't need baby stages to build up its drives and confidence in most cases, there already present, now it boils down to tapping into the ability without the dog realizing it's total B.S. because what the average dog perceives as a threat this breed blows off as a joke. So showing the seriousness of the dog in a cookie cutter training routine is very difficult for the average trainer IMO. A dog trained by harnessing its defensive drives may create a threatening deterrent type dog, but will never work on the same level as a natural protector with predator instincts (offensive) and natural pack (protective) values.
> 
> The owner was a wack-job but dog protected his ass off from what he percieved as a threat.
> ...


IMHO that officer should never been made responsible for a dog he knows nothing about...and I don't mean that individual dog, I mean dogs in general! Geesh, I mean how many friggin signs does one need to know that strike was eminent. That gsd gave every clue in the book that it was coming and the handler should absolutely have recognized those signs. This would make a great training video of what NOT to do heh? Seems to me that the dog was more about protecting his own space and himself rather than being protective of the handler, but thats just my take on it. He may be a great protection dog, but I would not classify that gsd as naturally protective. 
But in the case of the APBT, you are absolutely right in that this poor guy was being as loyal to his whacked off owner and his home as could be by perceiving that ACO as a threat (which she was in that she was there to take him away).
This is a pretty perfect example of a molossor breed doing what comes natural to him. Protect whats mine. Even if the whack job never said a word to the dog, he would likely have responded with the same result as he felt the owners anxiety and he acted upon his instinctual drive to protect.
I am not convinced you can reliably teach that kind of instinctual drive. It has to be there genetically and then developed and controlled. 
Great examples, thanks for sharing...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There are some good post being made. Just some of what I see. Many of the mollossers and airedales are very similar in temperments. I have said this many times....they are not game players. Most are real people dogs and like people and don't get off on playing games of attack the bad guy. This is not to say they don't know a bad guy. They are very good at recognising a threat.....Actually as I have seen in my own dogs, they could teach me a thing or two because what first alerted me a few times was the dogs. What can you expect from a dog that is naturaly protective? I don't think my dogs will pursue anyone that he encountered and has had enough and is retreating. They are not police dogs and do not understand "apprehend". They only react to a threat. A fleeing person is no longer a threat. When these dogs go in and are serious, they tend to stand down naturally when the threat is contained and they do know when a person has been reduced to not a threat. Unlike what many like to see, lets say my dog is off leach and you try to threaten him.. he will just move away from the threat because he knows he can outmaneuver a person so it isn't threatening to them. This can have different dynamics because I have had to rescue a few people from the yards in the passed because the dogs were just avoiding and the goofballs decided to push it. The yards are big and the dog put the guys into the electric fence. 

In short, they don't pursue to bite normally, they don't continue past when the threat is over...but they will sit in front of that threat until I get them. Different dogs all together and many bulldogs are the same way. Hard to keep them fired up in sprt work because as they realize the decoy really isn't a threat, they tend to lower intensity.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Yes.
> 
> I have heard and hear regularly about how a dog will protect its owner (I like the reference earlier to Pet Smart) and my conclusion was that people just don't know what they are talking about, except for nasty dogs that will bite almost anyone. I still hold that opinion for the most part, but I have seen a couple dogs, and have one, that bit, on his own, in a training environment full and convincing once he saw the man as a threat. It took three sessions for him to even care about the guy in front of him (no avoidance behaviors). Third time, he bit and held like he had been doing it all his life, once the guy threatened him seriously and put a sleeve on, and stepped into the circle with him. I still don't assume that he will bite in all situations, or on command at this point. Context is how they learn, and if the context is what he perceives as a threat (which he had naturally), or something close to what we have trained now, he'll perform well.
> 
> ...


I agree with most all of this Dave. The purpose of all this with Joby is to test dogs that are not exposed to any conditioning. Like you, I don't depend on the dogs to take care of things, just let me know it needs taking care of. I don't go around feeling the need to be aware for fear of being acosted because I have always enjoyed a good knock down, drag out myself and just as soon the dogs just let me know there is a problem. 

These are not people aggressive dogs in any way. They love people and kids. Unless they are restrained, I am not sure you can really threaten them as they will probably just avoid you....avoidance. If I enter the picture, they will be different. They likely will not bark and threaten you. They are not the type of dog that will posture, but, if you read their body lanquage, they are not even very agitated. They will just be laying somewhere close.....staring a hole through you. When they take that attitude, they need to be watched closely. Not being trained the way some perceive dog should be, they won't chase a person down and continue an assault in prey drive. If you are retreating, you are no longer a threat and they will stand down. I have seen this numerous times when when they perceive a threat, they let you know, usually coming out of the laying position with a roar and body slamming the offender and when they sense the fear, they stand down and take a sitting position about 2' in front of the person and guard them. These dogs think nothing a engaging and grabbing a 350 lb bear by the face. While many thnk that is natural for a dog, I will say, it is not natural and if they think it is, try to get a dog to do it if it is natural. Takes more nerve than most dogs can muster. It is that nerve that will make the difference.

The hardest thing to overcome with a possible test is getting the dogs to believe it is for real. It is going to be a tough instinct to beat. I think a suit will help because that will make them wary from the get go as they have never seen anyone in a suit...nor have I outside of pictures.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm eager to see the development of the testing scenario, I have recently been looking into the same type scenario to test a couple of dogs who have never seen a piece of equipment and have no issues with confronting / engaging a perceived threat if needed. I have my own ideas for it but haven't found the right trainer yet that will assist in this or right location, would like a neutral indoor location. like taking the homefield advantage away. I could find some real deal thugs in my area but without the k9 experience they may loose their nerve and blow the whole thing (even though protected). If their not authentically bringing it (perceived by the dogs), in a realistic scenario, it's of no use IMO.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike, it will be interesting for sure. One thing I disagree with is the need to go to neutral territory. No one says they won't protect in a neutral setting, it is they won't protect, period. So, why not on their home turf?


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Territorial defense, I have seen some dogs that show a ton of gusto at home show absolutely none in a neutral setting.
I am not a huge believer in an untrained dog, not because of the dog being weak but just never seeing it.
Maybe they are out there and I just haven't seen them but I cant envision a good french ring decoy with a stick barrage not holding off any untrained dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike, you saying they can't hold off a dog that is trained with a suit and a stick if they were not worried about curing the dog? I think if they are not worried about pissing the owner of the dog off that they could hold off a lot of trained dogs also. A good decoy that is.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, it will be interesting for sure. One thing I disagree with is the need to go to neutral territory. No one says they won't protect in a neutral setting, it is they won't protect, period. So, why not on their home turf?


Don, I was refering to my own personal testing, I might have missed the full scope of the original test parameters or challange, I think it was based on they just won't protect period, I get it then. For my own purposes on personal stock I wan't to take the comfort zone away so there is no debate with the final outcome, I already know how fast they adjust and have no nerve issues. I've walked my b!tch past a situation with car alarms/ police sirens/fire trucks every light going on imaginable all at the same time and had to hold her back from rushing into it. I think if I ever had a house fire she would try to battle the blaze. By the way her uncle was a champ catch dog down in Texas about 10 years ago, her sire was trained FRing/ASR.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Lauer said:


> Territorial defense, I have seen some dogs that show a ton of gusto at home show absolutely none in a neutral setting.
> I am not a huge believer in an untrained dog, not because of the dog being weak but just never seeing it.
> Maybe they are out there and I just haven't seen them but I cant envision a good french ring decoy with a stick barrage not holding off any untrained dog.



100% agreement! ;-)
This was my point in my post (#33) about barrier aggression. 
Unless a dog is over the top, naturally aggressive it's doubtful if "protection" will happen with the vast majority of dogs when they aren't in a "territorial defense"/"barrier aggression" situation. 
Then we have a totally different situation of "IF" the dog will stay in the fight beyond the first bite. That narrows down the numbers drastically!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have note on my front door pretty regularily. To get to the door, PG&E has about 35 to 40 yards to cover....and the yard always has dogs in it. They are the younger dogs in that yard simply because people kept coming up to the door. The dogs are not really territorial and the people leaving the notes were not perceived as a threat. I have never seen any sign of them viewing my truck as something to get shook up about either....unless I am in it such as the time at the gas station on the Hwy. They are very territorial when it comes to dogs and animals


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Man there is a lot of stuff in this thread. Wish I was able to put it all together and make a conclusion out of it. I’ll just keep scratching my head. Im kinda getting that there may be an increased chance of a dog truly protecting the owner on its home turf? And if it does bite it will likely bite and release?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Be easy enough to find out. Where's Joby? LOL Or anyone that has a suit. Like I said, it is easy to thing to settle if we have a true believer out there. And think of how much satisfaction that person will get showing me up. I"m willing to put my neck in the noose.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

It is all on Joby? Its like where’s Waldo. Joby your new job consists of breaking into dog owners houses and disappointing them when there dog does nothing. I really don’t care if my dog bites or not, but would you mind kidnapping my wife for real? We will just keep that part real. Ill pm you my address. 
I got $50.00 bucks that Marens 57th 6 ft 7 300 pound husband does nothing. Not causes he is scared to, but because he will be glad to see her go. I got another $50.00 that you kick her out of the car before you get to the end of the block. Not because you’re scared but because you just wont be able to take it anymore. Anyone want to take me up on those bets? 
And Joby if you break into my house don’t kidnap me, not only will they not try and stop you I don’t even think they will even miss me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sorry for the long post but I thought this was interesting about selecting a natural dog over a trained dog as per Wm Koehler's book 
THE KOEHLER METHOD OF GUARD DOG TRAINING.

Just one of many tests
THE RESPONSIBILITY TEST pg 31
"Have the owner of each dog you test take him by car away from his premises, and, in a strange area. Free him from any restraint. Without commanding the dog in any way, the man should walk slowly along. From a distance, watch to see whether the dog is so distracted or tempted by his new surroundings that he forgets about his master.
A dog with the qualities of a good guard dog might drift around a bit, noticing all things in his environment, but he would show concern with his master's whereabouts, and at definate intervals would swing back close to him to demonstrate his responsibility. Such a dog would be worthy of further consideration. If, when he is not restrained, a dog finds his new surroundings so interesting that he forgets to keep track of his master, you had better look elsewhere for a natural protector.
Merely considering such a test will cause many owners to withdraw their dogs."

The second test goes into leaving a gate open and see how the dog reacts when your out of site.

"Ideally, a responsible dog should be concerned with staying on "his" property. Don't write him off completely if he saunters outside his area and putters around in a way that demonstrates he is still more concerned with home and fireside then the call of the open road. However, if he shows that his heartstrings are but frail threads against the pull of adventure, and with his unconcern indicates that you could steal the house from behind him, you'd better say "Thanks' but no thanks." What makes such a dog appear to be a deamon guard when confinment forces him to confront an intruder is not the thing that will make a dog to ride the river with."

I forgot how interesting the Koehler books can be. 
I can see this in both my dogs. Thunder and Trooper have both left the yard when the gkids or myself have left the gate open. "IF" he leaves Thunder will go around and stretch out on the front porch. Trooper will merrily visit a neighbor or two till I call or whistle for him.
Thunder has more natural instinct to stick around home. More car/yard/ barrier Possessivness /aggression. Thunder will stare at strangers on our walks but is not interested in their attention. I sometimes think Trooper will go with anyone that says HI, in the car,yard or on a walk.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I like reading that particular book as well. I lost my original hard cover, but managed to find a copy on the net. I was going to post the sections at the begining of the book covering natural guard dog vs trained. I think the definitions make things pretty clear, but it's in PDF format and can't be copied and pasted.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

There is a wide range in behaviors a dog can display to "protect".

Have person assault the owner in some form or fashion, after a short visit on home turf, to be fair to dog. 

Start out with a abrupt short argument leading into a struggle and assault, to give dog a little help. 

The handler of the dog should make the altercation appear as realistic as possible. 

The "badguy" should also make the altercation appear as realistic as possible, by clubbing the _handler_, repeatedly, over and over, about the head, with a light to moderately substantial prop weapon. \\/

If the dog does not engage, then at least no harm was done to the _dog_, because the person never focused his attention on the dog.

Pass/Fail

A range of behaviors from dog, in regards to protecting it's handler, will be shown. 

Is that a fair test? Who knows....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Good to hear from you Joby This is pretty much what I was thinking also. I have rethought come charging ing the gate at the dog because that won't be a threat as he will just move. The assault will have to be on me. In all fairness to the decoy, this will be preplanned so I can have all the dogs out of the main yard but Odin. I don't think we have to worry about what is fair to the dog. I picked the Odin, the king of all yards to kick this test off. Odin is a sweet heart without a mean bone in his body also and has never been involved in any of the previous incidents. I also picked him because the decoy won't jam him like the smaller ones. The decoy has to show rage, and I have to muster up fear. I think I will think about the consequences if the dogs cur to muster some fear. LOL Now, about the part where I am getting beat on, and about, the head......we a talking a decoy I haven't pissed off right? LOL 

Not to be adding fuel to the fire but, Y'all are going on the premise I don't know these dogs that I have been breeding for 20+ years. It isn't like I have changed dogs to different lines or breeds over the years. I have physically held them back in any number of incidents so they wouldn't bite anyone because and the ones they were going for were froze solid.....except for the guy in the gas station who was getting back in his car as fast as he could. It will be interesting to see how they react to someone that hopefully shows "no fear" because they have a suit on. That they have never encountered. They should find that a challenge.





Joby Becker said:


> There is a wide range in behaviors a dog can display to "protect".
> 
> Have person assault the owner in some form or fashion, after a short visit on home turf, to be fair to dog.
> 
> ...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Sorry for the long post but I thought this was interesting about selecting a natural dog over a trained dog as per Wm Koehler's book
> THE KOEHLER METHOD OF GUARD DOG TRAINING.
> 
> Just one of many tests
> ...


Interesting excerpt Bob. I don't have that book, but, Koehler didn't train sport dogs but real serious dogs. The piuece you put up from back when, 50 to 60 years ago, depicts the importance of a dog that possesses "natural protective instincts". We have evolved so far that trainers don't believe there are dogs of this nature. Why? I think we have evolved to the point where were are breeding dogs to bite rather than protect. Before everyone disaggrees with this last statement, consider how dull a natural protector would be as a sport dog. Such a dog wouldn't even get any points. Breeding has devolved into breeding for points rather than good dogs. Many here have acknowledged that real serious dogs that get the job done won't get the points.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The test would still be valid, in particular for a dog that hasn't been bred for sport. 
I think the key to the whole thing is the dog being away from it's home base. That would show the true temperment of the dog without it being influenced by being on it's own territory. Even my daughter's Chi dog will bite the crap out of someone's ankles when in her own house/yard. Away from her house she wants nothing to do with strangers a runner. 
How protective/possessive a dog is at home has nothing to do with it's willingness to protect away from home. That's pretty clear in the book/article.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... so far that trainers don't believe there are dogs of this nature. Why? I think we have evolved to the point where were are breeding dogs to bite rather than protect. Before everyone disaggrees with this last statement, consider how dull a natural protector would be as a sport dog. Such a dog wouldn't even get any points. Breeding has devolved into breeding for points rather than good dogs. Many here have acknowledged that real serious dogs that get the job done won't get the points.


Don, I have seen untrained dogs that are very protective, and also untrained dogs that will bite someone while "protecting". 

Points are a non issue in protecting. I would think biting behavior is expected, if testing protection abilities, at least in my book, or is that wrong to expect a bite from a dog that WILL PROTECT ?

That suggestion was a starting point, I am sure we can agree on some sort of scenario..If that is not realistic...think about it...let me know what you are thinking, we can tweak it and go from there...PM if you would like....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Don, I have seen untrained dogs that are very protective, and also untrained dogs that will bite someone while "protecting".
> 
> Points are a non issue in protecting. I would think biting behavior is expected, if testing protection abilities, at least in my book, or is that wrong to expect a bite from a dog that WILL PROTECT ?
> 
> That suggestion was a starting point, I am sure we can agree on some sort of scenario..If that is not realistic...think about it...let me know what you are thinking, we can tweak it and go from there...PM if you would like....


I agree Joby. I would expect the dog to bite moreso only of I am threatened. I don't think you can make the dog feel threatened because he kniws all he has to do is avoid you. I don't really care what the dog does if you threaten him anyway....I want to see what he will do if I am threatened.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There is also the point that if *you *feel threatened - will the dog pick up on your "fear" and react protectively?

Or are you expecting the dog to sense "danger" from a stranger, even if you don't?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I will project fear Gillian, fear of what I will be put through here if my dog doesn't kick the decoys azz. LOL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

lol - I don't give a hoot of what people think of my dogs - they can ask the helpers what they feel!!!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I will project fear Gillian, fear of what I will be put through here if my dog doesn't kick the decoys azz. LOL


http://photoswest.org/photos/10033626/10033630.jpg


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I will project fear Gillian, fear of what I will be put through here if my dog doesn't kick the decoys azz. LOL


If you guys are going to do this to be fair to the dog you have to do it for real . Now Don's a tough guy so Joby has to figure out away to put the fear of god into him . This should be a fun video .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> If you guys are going to do this to be fair to the dog you have to do it for real . Now Don's a tough guy so Joby has to figure out away to put the fear of god into him . This should be a fun video .


Intersting point, the timer in the gas station, they reacted to me pissed...or it could have been the other guys tone. The time with the 3 guys in the jeep, they reacted on there own as I was totally oblivious the there being a possible danger. The time the dog took the lady down (his owner) the kids were asleep and she was just checking on them. I think it is going to be tough to beat their senses during the day. May be easier if a decoy just sneaks into the yard at night and acts suspicious. Maybe sneak up to the gate with a broomstick and whack em a couple of times to charge em up. lol


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Intersting point, the timer in the gas station, they reacted to me pissed...or it could have been the other guys tone. The time with the 3 guys in the jeep, they reacted on there own as I was totally oblivious the there being a possible danger. The time the dog took the lady down (his owner) the kids were asleep and she was just checking on them. I think it is going to be tough to beat their senses during the day. May be easier if a decoy just sneaks into the yard at night and acts suspicious. Maybe sneak up to the gate with a broomstick and whack em a couple of times to charge em up. lol


You know your dogs better then I . I'm probably reading your other posts wrong on here but it sounded to me that your dogs may not react to that . 

The only way I see this working is Joby with no equipment on and him whacking you really hard with the broomstick .


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Just remember some dogs may need to see you wacked a couple times before reacting. Fun for Joby not so much for you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I just don't think it will get as far as actual contact. Funny dogs Adam, pain triggers em on instead of away....but then we won't know if they bit because they were protecting me or just being themselves.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I just don't think it will get as far as actual contact. Funny dogs Adam, pain triggers em on instead of away....but then we won't know if they bit because they were protecting me or just being themselves.


I think either way they are protecting themselves . If they see you being attacked they have to believe in their minds that you are worth the risk of them being hurt while protecting you , because you are that important to their survival .


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I reckon the dogs will sense a simulation, it's going to have to be quite life like and unexpected....you know....a bit excitement for all.  If it's going to be a test of protection, then it's going to have to be some kind of assault on you Don no?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I was half joking about Joby hitting Don with a broom but in reality something like that might be what it takes . 

As much as I would like to see a video of someone whacking another with a broomstick and then the whacker being bitten up by a dog I think such "tests" are foolish and there is little worth gaining from it . 

First whether Joby has equipment on or not he stands a good chance of being bit and on the flip side the dog runs off and is a disappointment . 

But if you 2 have your hearts set on it be my guest , it certainly will be entertaining .


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> The only way I see this working is Joby with no equipment on and him whacking you really hard with the broomstick .


I'll grab the video camera, because it's going to be an epic moment for WDF.

Round 2, Don vs....(insert other adversary here) - it could be the WDF version of "Bum fights".


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I'll grab the video camera, because it's going to be an epic moment for WDF.
> 
> Round 2, Don vs....(insert other adversary here) - it could be the WDF version of "Bum fights".


That's exactly what I was thinking , the K9 version of Bum Fights , when this was first brought up .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

MMM, I don't know if whacking me with a broomstick is a great idea. What if it really pisses me off and the dog does take Joby down.... What if I take my time getting the dog back because he has zero recall? LOL I know it is getting dumb now. LOL


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> MMM, I don't know if whacking me with a broomstick is a great idea. What if it really pisses me off and the dog does take Joby down.... What if I take my time getting the dog back because he has zero recall? LOL I know it is getting dumb now. LOL


It was from the start , but I have to admit it sure would be fun to watch .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Not really dumb from the start. I been hearing how only trained dogs will bite....by trainers that are into bite work of course. I call bullshit and everyone swears it is true. I am just offering a chance to prove it...but no one wants to of course. I am not afraid to be proved I am wrong since, apparently I am. Let's face it, only a fool would try to prove me wrong for real. Talk has always been a pretty cheap commodity in my eyes.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not really dumb from the start. I been hearing how only trained dogs will bite....by trainers that are into bite work of course. I call bullshit and everyone swears it is true. I am just offering a chance to prove it...but no one wants to of course. I am not afraid to be proved I am wrong since, apparently I am. Let's face it, only a fool would try to prove me wrong for real. Talk has always been a pretty cheap commodity in my eyes.


Yeah it was dumb . Don't disagree with you on what you're calling BS on just the foolish way you want or feel the need to prove it .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Want to prove it yes, Need to no. If I thought it was that important I would try to do it on Animal Planet ,Jim. Maybe get some worl wide recognition...if you get my drift.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

This is like the other thread and definitions are all different....PROTECT?

Dog sees threat bites....decoy stands still or eases off...no threat...dog stops biting??

Nuetral turf? Home protection? So many variables and thoughts from two different backgrounds....could be either way....if I were anywhere need you, I would do the challenge out of straight curiosity.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That would be cool Jody. From the looks of it I may have to hire the closest guy to me to "Get er done". I would like to do it before the German pup is old enough to breed . He has a lot of titles behind him and to have vids of the other side of this cross showing the right instincts with no training....make quite an impression on both sides of the pond. I got some time anyway.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Someone would have to be really stupid to try this without equipment because it wouldn't matter if the dog bit you out of fear or in defense of his owner..you'd regret it.

It shouldn't matter about gear anyway because Dons dogs have never seen it, right ?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Want to prove it yes, Need to no. If I thought it was that important I would try to do it on Animal Planet ,Jim. Maybe get some worl wide recognition...if you get my drift.


No I don't .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Someone would have to be really stupid to try this without equipment because it wouldn't matter if the dog bit you out of fear or in defense of his owner..you'd regret it.
> 
> It shouldn't matter about gear anyway because Dons dogs have never seen it, right ?


I agree with all of the above . Thing about the dog not knowing equipment is even if the decoy has a big bitesuit on there are still exposed areas the dog may bite . The bigger the bitesuit the more unnatural the decoys movements . The smaller the suit the more the more natural looking but more unprotected areas for the dog to bite . There is also no way of telling how the dog will bite if it does . Will it bite and hold or will it bite all over the place ? My guess would be if it bites it will be in several places . I think with these set ups a hand or head bite is a very legitimate concern .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I agree with all of the above . Thing about the dog not knowing equipment is even if the decoy has a big bitesuit on there are still exposed areas the dog may bite . The bigger the bitesuit the more unnatural the decoys movements . The smaller the suit the more the more natural looking but more unprotected areas for the dog to bite . There is also no way of telling how the dog will bite if it does . Will it bite and hold or will it bite all over the place ? My guess would be if it bites it will be in several places . I think with these set ups a hand or head bite is a very legitimate concern .


That is why I said to bring face protection and stuff. All these dogs are "head" dogs. Always wanted one that would heal from the back end but would have to keep one that showed fear to get that.


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