# Speaking of raw



## Don Turnipseed

I started feeding raw chicken some time back. The adult dogs look great getting 1 to 1 1/2 lbs a day depending on size. They also go through abpout 600 lbs of kibble for the other things they need. Stools are great, energy is a bit overwhelming everything is good. Everything except puppies. Had 36 pups recently in 3 litters. Ended up with 14. My mistake most likely since the adults were doing so well, I threw the prgnant bitches extra chicken...which in turn cut down on the kibble they ate. The dogs are all free fed so they only eat what they need. The chicken and the fat was great for body warmth being outside dogs compared to kibble. Well, tewo of the bitches were first time sisters but they were well below their older sister....but were still first timers so the jury was out. The third bitch has a priven track record and she ended up with 3 out of 12 pups. Jury isn't out on that litter nor the first two now. I have anoth just bred and cut her chicken in half or less and have her on puppy chow. This last bitch is also a titer breeding so, should know in a few months. The first three all produced the 10 gen pup, this last one will be 11 gen. It would be more conclusive using another 10th gen cross but for now, this will give me an idea. 

I like the way the adults look and how they are doing with the raw, but, they are just eating for themselves and I don't think they need all that much other stuff and do well with what they get from the kibble. A bitch eating for 12 and 13 pups needs a lot more. Something else was very evident. The surviving pups were all the first born. Kind of leads me to believe the pups in the first horn to drop get the nourishment first, the second horn gets the left overs. This is what leads to the belief that in the wild, coyotes and such have smaller litters. Possibly they don't, just the last of the litters don't survive.....because times were to lean for mom to get enough nourishment. Maybe natures way of ensuring some survive by distributing the nourishment that is available. Just a thought.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... since the adults were doing so well, I threw the prgnant bitches extra chicken...which in turn cut down on the kibble they ate. The dogs are all free fed ....


Just clean chicken quarters? 

No organ meat? 

Nothing like green tripe (or a little produce, processed) to replicate what would be devoured when small prey is eaten in its entirety by a canid?

This would be insufficient from my POV.

However, I definitely can't speak to this part:
_I like the way the adults look and how they are doing with the raw, but, they are just eating for themselves and I don't think they need all that much other stuff and do well with what they get from the kibble. A bitch eating for 12 and 13 pups needs a lot more. Something else was very evident. The surviving pups were all the first born. Kind of leads me to believe the pups in the first horn to drop get the nourishment first, the second horn gets the left overs. This is what leads to the belief that in the wild, coyotes and such have smaller litters. Possibly they don't, just the last of the litters don't survive.....because times were to lean for mom to get enough nourishment. Maybe natures way of ensuring some survive by distributing the nourishment that is available. Just a thought.

_
Interesting.


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## Connie Sutherland

And very interesting:
_
The surviving pups were all the first born. Kind of leads me to believe the pups in the first horn to drop get the nourishment first, the second horn gets the left overs. ... This is what leads to the belief that in the wild, coyotes and such have smaller litters. Possibly they don't, just the last of the litters don't survive ..... because times were to lean for mom to get enough nourishment. Maybe natures way of ensuring some survive by distributing the nourishment that is available. Just a thought._

Doesn't the placenta supply the two horns at the central uterine cavity, where they come together? (I'm pretty vague on this.)


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## Carol Boche

Connie Sutherland said:


> Just clean chicken quarters?
> 
> No organ meat?
> 
> Nothing like green tripe (or a little produce, processed) to replicate what would be devoured when small prey is eaten in its entirety by a canid?
> 
> This would be insufficient from my POV.
> 
> However, I definitely can't speak to this part:
> _I like the way the adults look and how they are doing with the raw, but, they are just eating for themselves and I don't think they need all that much other stuff and do well with what they get from the kibble. A bitch eating for 12 and 13 pups needs a lot more. Something else was very evident. The surviving pups were all the first born. Kind of leads me to believe the pups in the first horn to drop get the nourishment first, the second horn gets the left overs. This is what leads to the belief that in the wild, coyotes and such have smaller litters. Possibly they don't, just the last of the litters don't survive.....because times were to lean for mom to get enough nourishment. Maybe natures way of ensuring some survive by distributing the nourishment that is available. Just a thought.
> 
> _
> Interesting.


That is interesting.....and I do agree with Connie about the raw part, but, if they are eating kibble too....well, that changes things a bit for me on the whole thing. So I am not sure what to say......:-D


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## Don Turnipseed

This is whythe still get 600 to 800 lbs of kibble Connie. They survived on kibble alone for years. So being practicle, an adult should get plenty of what they need from that much to my way of thinking. Most of the protien sucks in kibble, much of which isn't assimilable anyway, so the chicken just gives them some real protien.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is whythe still get 600 to 800 lbs of kibble Connie. They survived on kibble alone for years. So being practicle, an adult should get plenty of what they need from that much to my way of thinking. Most of the protien sucks in kibble, much of which isn't assimilable anyway, so the chicken just gives them some real protien.


But_ "I threw the prgnant bitches extra chicken...which in turn cut down on the kibble they ate. "_

However, it doesn't sound from the 600-800 pounds of kibble that you meant they had started eating mostly just the chicken. :lol:



But anyway, that horn/nourishment idea is pretty interesting. I guess I thought there was a "central supply" to both horns but I don't know.


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## Molly Graf

are you sure it was nutrition deficiency (if I'm reading your post correctly) that killed the puppies - you had huge losses, and sounds like you were feeding your mother dogs very well, very balanced - can't understand why you would have lost puppies. What kind of kibble? Did you have any of the puppies necropsied? It is very interesting - can't imagine why puppies would have died if the mother was in good condition and produced enough milk for them.

molly


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## Carol Boche

Might be interesting to find out why, but, I think that this happens more often than not.....and some breeders just don't say anything. 

Not to mention the big difference in how Don raises his dogs and how "other" breeders raise theirs. 

I like the way Don raises his dogs, he has it down really well and rarely does he have issues. He loses pups, yes, but that is a fact of life and I doubt it is from him doing anything wrong in his care of the bitches.


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## Geoff Empey

Chicken is great and all as a RAW food. But I wouldn't be supplementing it with kibble any kibble. I'd be following a whole RAW plan not just throwing them chicken parts. Chicken by itself 'human prepared' backs, legs etc without the whole prey model is not sufficient by itself. I have been adding fish and lots of it to my bitch now that she is lactacting as well as more vegs and little snacks during the day. 

She was eating approx 500g of ground coarse chicken (whole including offal without feathers) a day and vegs. She also got approx 500g of fish a week with a whole egg including shell every 3-4 days. 

Now she is lactating and I'm feeding for 9 the portions have upped considerably. She is at approx 850-1000g of chicken a day plus 500g of fish a day with proportion upped vegs, still with a whole egg every 3-4 days. 

The pups are thriving all 8 have more than doubled their weights at the 2 week mark with some approaching triple weight! 

I'm not sure if why you would be having those losses is purely diet related, or something else. Unless the chicken by itself doesn't get the right balance of nutrients in the bitches milk or throws it off. If the bitch is healthy and the milk is not an off colour she should be good to go. Have you expressed milk to see if it is 'off' colour?


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## Don Turnipseed

Molly, the survival rate was much better on straight kibble. I think in I screwed up by giving the bitches more chicken which created a big imbalance because they will always eat the chicken first. The bitch that was just bred is a bigger bitch and I am giving her maybe a quarter of what the others got and she is probably 25lbs bigger. This is going to be a first time, maybe last time, cross. It is always easier to judge things on a repeat cross that is proven. The bitches are all high production in number, or, very fertile, because they are bred so close. Keeping high production bitches for this type of breeding is a catch 22. The first two to whelp were about 50 lb bitches and they threw 24 pups out the gate. When you get into these numbers to ensure a decent litter with some losses, the catch 22 is that some of the pups are very small and are just not viable. On kibble, usually the survival rate is 80 %. These last litters are not acceptable even to me....and I think I was the problem being over confident with the results I saw with the raw where the adults were concerned. I thought more would be better for the pregnant bitches also. Don't know if that makes sense.


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## Don Turnipseed

Slow down Geoff, it has nothing to do with the milk. The first born were the survivors. The later ones were eith DOA(which is hard on the mom) or two weak when they were born. If the milk had anything to do with it, the first born would have faded also.
While I am guessing a bit at this also, the only big difference is the diet.


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## Geoff Empey

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think I was the problem being over confident with the results I saw with the raw where the adults were concerned. I thought more would be better for the pregnant bitches also. Don't know if that makes sense.


Your train of thought makes sense, but what is good for an adult may not actually transpose to a pup through the mother's milk. Pups require a lot more protein and fat than an adult dog. Having the adults gorge on chicken alone while picking at the kibble you are messing with that protein/fat balance. Chicken by itself bone in is a lot of bone as well by weight. That's why I always have some sort of fish in the adults diet. There is more protein as well as all good omega fats, less filler but more killer for the buck.


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## Don Turnipseed

As far as the onse that made it being strong. In the litter with the 3, it has been raining for over a week and it is a cold rain. The new 1" lids on the whelping boxes leaked like a sieve. That is 1" OSB. and I sealed it anyway. The 3 pupos were on their second day, I had to go to town and came home after dark. I shined a light in the door and they were soaking wet. Mom was soaking wet. The bedding was soaking wet. I was out there and found a lid that wan't leaking and scooped out the shavings and put dry in and put the better lid on. When I picked up the pups, the had body warmth even though the conditions were horrible. It was close to freezing at the time.


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## Don Turnipseed

Geoff Empey said:


> Your train of thought makes sense, but what is good for an adult may not actually transpose to a pup through the mother's milk. Pups require a lot more protein and fat than an adult dog. Having the adults gorge on chicken alone while picking at the kibble you are messing with that protein/fat balance. Chicken by itself bone in is a lot of bone as well by weight. That's why I always have some sort of fish in the adults diet. There is more protein as well as all good omega fats, less filler but more killer for the buck.


I can't say for certain Geoff. I just judge what I can see and this bitch has a track record with the same male. I feed whole leg quaters, but in the wild they would get some featers, fur and many other sources of food and nutrients that they are not getting with the leg quarters. That is why they still get kibble. I have adult dogs from 50 to 100 lbs and I will never be able to tell anyone how many grams each one is getting. I judge how big a piece they get by running my finger down their ribs. If I can't feel the ribs easily, I give them a bigger piece of chicken. If they feel like a washboard, I give them less chicken.


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## Geoff Empey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Slow down Geoff, it has nothing to do with the milk. The first born were the survivors. The later ones were eith DOA(which is hard on the mom) or two weak when they were born. If the milk had anything to do with it, the first born would have faded also.
> While I am guessing a bit at this also, the only big difference is the diet.


It still could be the milk that holds your answer. You are what you eat .. garbage in garbage out the old adage is true. Even with the DOA pups all of it inutero or out is still reflective of what is going in nutritionally as a whole picture. I'll put money that as adults the survivors will be lighter/smaller than what you are used to. 

Both Connie and myself have pointed out that Chicken by itself especially in the quantities you say you were feeding is NOT complete nutrition without other certain things (offal, vegs) being in place. Just supplementing kibble hoping to make up the difference is an honest mistake.


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## Geoff Empey

Don Turnipseed said:


> I can't say for certain Geoff. I just judge what I can see and this bitch has a track record with the same male. I feed whole leg quaters, but in the wild they would get some featers, fur and many other sources of food and nutrients that they are not getting with the leg quarters. That is why they still get kibble. I have adult dogs from 50 to 100 lbs and I will never be able to tell anyone how many grams each one is getting. I judge how big a piece they get by running my finger down their ribs. If I can't feel the ribs easily, I give them a bigger piece of chicken. If they feel like a washboard, I give them less chicken.



Don the answer is right there. 



> I feed whole leg quaters, but in the wild they would get some featers, fur and many other sources of food and nutrients that they are not getting with the leg quarters. That is why they still get kibble.


The kibble DOESN'T balance the chicken leg by itself. Legs are really a lot of bone not as much as backs, but it is a lot of bone. 

I add this to my chicken http://www.urbanwolf.cc/ProductGuide.htm .. but even my chicken is more based on a FULL prey model. I used the regular Urban Wolf as well as their balancer. If you can't add whole fish get some salmon or herring oil to add to your bitches diet.


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## Don Turnipseed

Geoff said


> I'll put money that as adults the survivors will be lighter/smaller than what you are used to.


How much money Geoff? 
.


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## Geoff Empey

Don Turnipseed said:


> How much money Geoff?
> .


A jar of Redman and a bottle of Jack, we have to share it in person of course!


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## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> Molly, the survival rate was much better on straight kibble. I think in I screwed up by giving the bitches more chicken which created a big imbalance because they will always eat the chicken first. The bitch that was just bred is a bigger bitch and I am giving her maybe a quarter of what the others got and she is probably 25lbs bigger. This is going to be a first time, maybe last time, cross. It is always easier to judge things on a repeat cross that is proven. The bitches are all high production in number, or, very fertile, because they are bred so close. Keeping high production bitches for this type of breeding is a catch 22. The first two to whelp were about 50 lb bitches and they threw 24 pups out the gate. When you get into these numbers to ensure a decent litter with some losses, the catch 22 is that some of the pups are very small and are just not viable. On kibble, usually the survival rate is 80 %. These last litters are not acceptable even to me....and I think I was the problem being over confident with the results I saw with the raw where the adults were concerned. I thought more would be better for the pregnant bitches also. Don't know if that makes sense.


It makes sense to me. I know a number of breeders here and in Europe that feed a mixture of quality kibble and RAW chicken quarters, but limit the chicken so the dogs get enough that they need from the kibble. I take it you will be cutting down on the chicken so they eat more kibble? Of course if you ever decide to go this route, Green Tripe is a great food to add to your current regimine, or even consider foregoing the chicken and just supplementing the kibble with green tripe. It's doggy crack, you know!!!!


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## Debbie Skinner

I have been researching options for supplements when feeding raw. Sometimes I get a whole lot of meat and not a lot of organs and tripe so would like a supplement to add that is easy and complete during these times.

I do know that exotic animal food companies sell supplements for raw feeders.

One company is http://www.mazuri.com I was looking at their supplements and wondering if they were any good. 


Mazuri has a supplement for those feeding just slab meat. I took this to mean muscle meat. Ingredients here: https://www.mazuri.com/PDF/58QC.pdf 


They also have a supplement for whole prey and a complete kibble. However, I am discouraged with this company ingredients in their "complete" kibble formula.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Are you sure the death rate is from nutrition and not because of how tight the breedings are? Especially when you were giving the moms access to both the raw and kibble, I would expect them to eat what they need in terms of nutrients, and not throw their systems that far out of whack eating only chicken. The way a dog will start to eat grass or hunt for other vegetation if their diet is out of whack.

I know most of your breedings are very tight, but is there something different about these breedings, ie tighter on one specific dog, or have you done these same combos in the past? I know it would be different dogs since these were first time moms, but something very similar? What is your normal death rate in pups? If I remember right, 2 of these females lost 50% of their litters up front, which would seems high to me.

As a side note I've done, and do, the kibble and chicken quarters thing a lot and haven't had any problems from it. I also add necks (turkey, chicken and pork) and some organ meat on occasion, but I don't break it down as scientifically as the 100% raw feeders do since they are also getting kibble.


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## Don Turnipseed

Kadi, the bitch that dropped to 25% has had two other littere. One 9 out of 12 were good, the other 11 out of 13.
The two first times ore full sisters to an older bitch that will throw 8 and 9 consistently out of 11.

In answer to your question...no, I don't know for a fact, but, since the only thing that has changed is the feeding. I tend to be a bit suspicious simply bnecause the lower number tend to point there. Also, the fact that in every litter the first born were the strongest and survived. Leads me to believe Mother Nature has this figured out acco9rding to the good times vs the lean times. There are patterns that can't be ignored but I, or anyone else, has to be able to see them sise by side to realise they are a pattern. The bitches in question have been bred to the same males also, so nothing there has changed either.


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## Anne Vaini

I didn't read all the posts, but I had to throw this out there. Pregnant bitches need their carbs. It affects pup mortality. I can't say more than that without digging out a textbook at home, but maybe the diet became too low-carb towards the end of the pregnancy?

Connie?


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## Konnie Hein

Don, it seems to me that the simple solution would be to stop feeding the raw component and keep with kibble only to see if that gets you back on track?


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## Don Turnipseed

The one bitch that is bred I cut back to one thigh. She is a pretty big girl so she will have to eat the puppy chow. I have never fed puppy chow either but I think it will add more of what is needed short term. I had to watch to make sure she didn't take the males chicken but, he still has about 25 lbs on her and he made it pretty clear she isn't getting his. LOL Don't have to worry about that. I do have to stand at each yard and make sure the bigger dogs don't take the smaller dogs chicken away from them.


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Vaini said:


> I didn't read all the posts, but I had to throw this out there. Pregnant bitches need their carbs. It affects pup mortality. I can't say more than that without digging out a textbook at home, but maybe the diet became too low-carb towards the end of the pregnancy?
> 
> Connie?


Oh gosh, I had totally forgotten that, Anne! 

Good call!

Here is one of the links we discussed here:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/111/4/678
_
QUOTE: We concluded that pregnant bitches require dietary carbohydrate for optimal reproductive performance. END_


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## Maren Bell Jones

Anne Vaini said:


> I didn't read all the posts, but I had to throw this out there. Pregnant bitches need their carbs. It affects pup mortality. I can't say more than that without digging out a textbook at home, but maybe the diet became too low-carb towards the end of the pregnancy?
> 
> Connie?


Not Connie, of course, but that is correct. Late gestation/lactation is the only life stage where dogs have a dietary *requirement* for carbohydrates. Very young puppies are also very susceptible to salmonella and campylobacter, which chicken is of course full of, if you have post whelping mortality. If you are feeding kibble, it will go "out of balance" if you feed over 10% of the diet of something that is not in balance. Chicken backs, necks, and thighs are not balanced.


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## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> .... If you are feeding kibble, it will go "out of balance" if you feed over 10% of the diet of something that is not in balance.


I have perpetual problems explaining that while kibble itself is balanced, it does nothing to "balance" any significant unbalanced portion of a diet.

Not the case here, of course, but I have actually read posts from folks who fed muscle meat (no bones) and "balanced it" by adding kibble.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren, what is camphylobacter???


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## Don Turnipseed

The dogs forage constanly. Acorns, lots of acorns....which was a problem at one time. I will have to check that yard but I think I have most of them cleaned up. They are not a problem till they get wet and mold. The mold caused a lot of pups to be stillborn..


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren, what is camphylobacter???



I think it's the most common food-borne illness-causing bacteria.


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## Debbie Skinner

Camphy causes soft mustard colored stools and can be treated with Erythromycin.


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## Don Turnipseed

OK, I have a question. How many of these bacterias will run their course naturally?


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, I have a question. How many of these bacterias will run their course naturally?


Meaning ..... ?


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## Debbie Skinner

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, I have a question. How many of these bacterias will run their course naturally?



I never take a chance with puppies. I always treat as we keep them in an unnatural environment i.e. litters and dogs live on the same property year after year and if there is a contaminant in the soil or brought in then they have to live there with it. If a pup has loose stool, I am concerned and treat it. If you worm with Panacur then it will also kill girardia. If you have a problem with Coccidea then you need to treat with Albon or Corid...and so on..


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## Don Turnipseed

Meaning dogs are not people. I don't own a dog that has ever been in a vets office and they are longer lived when they used to go regularily years ago. How much of this stuff, like kennel cough, will just run its course naturally? I had a run of 9 days with kidney stones without seeing a doctor. Many things pass on their own....if you get my drift.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Don Turnipseed said:


> Meaning dogs are not people. I don't own a dog that has ever been in a vets office and they are longer lived when they used to go regularily years ago. How much of this stuff, like kennel cough, will just run its course naturally? I had a run of 9 days with kidney stones without seeing a doctor. Many things pass on their own....if you get my drift.


I had an 6mm x 8mm calcium that took a little over a week, I thought I was going to die. I wasn't going to the doctor either lol.


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## Debbie Skinner

Don Turnipseed said:


> Meaning dogs are not people. I don't own a dog that has ever been in a vets office and they are longer lived when they used to go regularily years ago. How much of this stuff, like kennel cough, will just run its course naturally? I had a run of 9 days with kidney stones without seeing a doctor. Many things pass on their own....if you get my drift.


The parasites and cocci, girardia, camphy, I would treat for. Kennel Cough - no, Parvo - yes, Distemper - not much one can do.. I would take tx as well if I had girardia or a parasite. You can worm yourself and treat yourself too as many of the products have a dosage for humans as well. I'm not recommending or not recommending..I'm just saying..


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> .... Many things pass on their own....if you get my drift.



Ohhhh. I getcha.

I do have a somewhat different mindset with very senior dogs, dogs who are recovering from something serious, etc.


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## Don Turnipseed

Don Turnipseed said:


> Meaning dogs are not people. I don't own a dog that has ever been in a vets office and they are longer lived when they used to go regularily


That should have read "*THAN*" when they used to go regularily"

Of course it may be because I don't dote on the weak also. 

Gerry, I just couldn't see going to have the doc tell me what I had when I already knew what I had.


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## Debbie Skinner

Don Turnipseed said:


> Meaning dogs are not people. I don't own a dog that has ever been in a vets office and they are longer lived when they used to go regularily years ago. How much of this stuff, like kennel cough, will just run its course naturally? I had a run of 9 days with kidney stones without seeing a doctor. Many things pass on their own....if you get my drift.


Over the years, I've learned the tx and meds for most commonly occurring illnesses and injuries. Many common things you can do yourself. You can keep the supplies on hand if you are comfortable treating your own animals. Most ranchers do and do not call the vet or take animals to the vet for ailments that they can take care of at home. I would be most worried with puppies not getting tx for an illness and getting dehydrated, etc.


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie Sutherland said:


> Ohhhh. I getcha.
> 
> I do have a somewhat different mindset with very senior dogs, dogs who are recovering from something serious, etc.


I was talking about the kidney stones Connie. LOL I have had some outstanding dogs Connie but, longevity past a working life is not my high priority since they are living outside. I have had many good dogs live out their life just strolling around the yard for two or three years and I will give them that as long as they are still healthy....but....I could have had some room for other dogs coming up and I don't think they are really enjoying their life that much because they still want to go on the hunts and can't.


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## Eric Shearer

""As far as the onse that made it being strong. In the litter with the 3, it has been raining for over a week and it is a cold rain. The new 1" lids on the whelping boxes leaked like a sieve. That is 1" OSB. and I sealed it anyway. The 3 pupos were on their second day, I had to go to town and came home after dark. I shined a light in the door and they were soaking wet. Mom was soaking wet. The bedding was soaking wet. I was out there and found a lid that wan't leaking and scooped out the shavings and put dry in and put the better lid on. When I picked up the pups, the had body warmth even though the conditions were horrible. It was close to freezing at the time."

What did you seal the osb with? just curious as if it was raining and it leaked and the sealer was washed into the whelping box.... could have been toxic... doesn't explain why the first born survived but it is food for thought.


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## Don Turnipseed

The others were already gone Eric.


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## Geoff Empey

Connie Sutherland said:


> I have perpetual problems explaining that while kibble itself is balanced, it does nothing to "balance" any significant unbalanced portion of a diet.
> 
> Not the case here, of course, but I have actually read posts from folks who fed muscle meat (no bones) and "balanced it" by adding kibble.


That's what I was saying was the amount of chicken was offsetting the balance of the kibble. You know me I'm RAW all the way it appeals to the caveman in me! :razz: But doing piecemeal RAW and partial kibble IMHO is a disaster to just feeding a good quality kibble in the first place. If it was 75-80% kibble with a couple of chicken legs here and there sure, but 75-80% chicken and 20-25% Kibble there would be to many things missing. 

Carbs are very important as well, not just any carbs either. If I threw my bitch a few pizza crusts thinking that "hey it's carbs" well they are not created the same. The carbs should be coming from berries or sweet potato stuff like that.


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## Molly Graf

What is a good source of carbs for a pregnant female, and how much of this source should she get for optimum health of her puppies?

this is a very interesting thread, thank you.

molly


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## Connie Sutherland

Molly Graf said:


> What is a good source of carbs for a pregnant female, and how much of this source should she get for optimum health of her puppies?
> 
> this is a very interesting thread, thank you.
> 
> molly


I read somewhere back when this board was talking about carbs for a pregnant bitch and I was looking up stuff that if the carbs could not be the semi-digested kind that the dog would eat in the gut of small prey, then they should be cooked, and considerably higher in soluble fiber than unsoluble.

This was a long time ago, though. I can look it up again tomorrow.


Here's one of the threads, BTW, which deteriorated quickly into a POS, but which had one or two pages of info:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/bred-bitch-diets-11556/#post128721


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## Debbie Skinner

Molly Graf said:


> What is a good source of carbs for a pregnant female, and how much of this source should she get for optimum health of her puppies?
> 
> this is a very interesting thread, thank you.
> 
> molly


During the last 3-4 weeks of pregnancy I give the female all the grain-free kibble she wants as well as almost free fed green tripe. None of my females go crazy over the kibble, but their intact of "everything" offered increases of course as the bitch is eating for +++. I don't free feed normally or during the first month as many of my girls would be fat + prego'd, which isn't healthy. I really believe in offering a lot of fresh green tripe. I get it straight from the butcher and it's only 1-5 days old. Sometimes I freeze some and thaw it out, but I try to feed it fresh. We pick it up every 1-2 weeks.

Also, I give the female her normal diet of bones, meat. 

After a female whelps almost every one really craves raw liver. I guess I let the female figure out what she needs in that respect, but I never give the choice of muscle meat vs kibble. The raw offered is a prey model.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Molly Graf said:


> What is a good source of carbs for a pregnant female, and how much of this source should she get for optimum health of her puppies?


It is the low-glycemic carbohydrates that you are wanting to fed as a supplement to a pregnant/lactacting bitch. Examples of low glycemic carbs are oats, fruit, lentils, etc. 

I've give my bitch say a 1/8 to 1/16 of a cup of raw oats soaked in h20 mixed in with her regular Chicken/Fish RAW meal every 2 days when she is at the end of her pregnancy and while she is lactacting. Also I'll pop in a few pieces of tomato, apple slices (no core), blueberries or blackberries (no strawberries) in as well when I think of it. Or seeing those products getting tired in the fridge they just go in with the bitches regular RAW meal. 

I don't really apply a science to it, just use my gut feeling in applying "how much" of this source to give.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Meaning dogs are not people. I don't own a dog that has ever been in a vets office and they are longer lived when they used to go regularily years ago. How much of this stuff, like kennel cough, will just run its course naturally? I had a run of 9 days with kidney stones without seeing a doctor. Many things pass on their own....if you get my drift.


Meaning you'd rather let more puppies die than spend a buck? Why am I not surprised...this is why and yes, campy, salmonella, and E. coli are often fatal in puppies. Kind of like calf scours in newborn calves can be fatal (had two die in the last two days at the clinic I'm working at).

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2232&S=1


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## Nicole Stark

Maren, would a necropsy have been useful in lending credibility to or verifying Don's theory for why he lost so many puppies this time around? With that high of a loss I wouldn't be satisfied with a chalking it up to a hunch. Particularly if that hunch was based upon something I may have had a hand in contributing to.

What I mean is Don suggests that the loss may have resulted from undernourishment which some have posted information that does appear to favor that theory. If that was the cause, I would think the undernourished puppies wouldn't just be smaller but noticeably different as would the bitches, whose condition I don't recall him commenting on.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Gross necropsies are often inconclusive, though there are some microorganisms that target certain segments of the intestines and not others, so that's a clue. Sometimes doing histopathology and bacteriology culture is helpful as well, but it depends on the strain of bacteria, as some are naturally there and may just opportunistically overgrow, but others are highly invasive, particularly on a young, naive animal as they do not have the defenses an adult would have. 

Which is why feeding raw to the females right around whelping is dicey. The females can very easily be subclinically infected, but from being licked and cleaned by mom, the pups are exposed and can die. If I was doing a raw diet and I had a pregnant female, I'd simply switch to canned or get a meat grinder and grind the meat and bones (and provide veggies, fruits, and a good source of carbs), and gently cook it. There is no magical pixie dust which makes raw more special and there are, of course, potential drawbacks and dangers. It's a risk benefit analysis. Here's a vet friend of mine's site that explains how to grind the bones for cat food (same idea) for either raw feeding or cooking (so you don't have to add in extra calcium for supplementation if you are using a variety of raw meaty bones).

http://www.catinfo.org/makingcatfood.htm


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Meaning you'd rather let more puppies die than spend a buck? Why am I not surprised...this is why and yes, campy, salmonella, and E. coli are often fatal in puppies. Kind of like calf scours in newborn calves can be fatal (had two die in the last two days at the clinic I'm working at).
> 
> http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2232&S=1


If that is the way you like to interpret it Maron. Pups are on their own for the first 4 weeks. I make no secret of that. But being realistic that is why none of my dogs has needed to see a vet. I don't save the weak. Tell me, what did you charge for the care, blood tests and everything else you thnk of for the care of the two calves that died? 
In the case of the pups, the moms take the chicken into the whelping box with the pups to eat. You shouldn't be surprised there are people like myself. Vets are part of the problem with the decline in healthy dogs. You know what they say. "99% of the vets give the rest of them a bad name".


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Gross necropsies are often inconclusive, though there are some microorganisms that target certain segments of the intestines and not others, so that's a clue. Sometimes doing histopathology and bacteriology culture is helpful as well, but it depends on the strain of bacteria, as some are naturally there and may just opportunistically overgrow, but others are highly invasive, particularly on a young, naive animal as they do not have the defenses an adult would have.
> 
> Which is why feeding raw to the females right around whelping is dicey. The females can very easily be subclinically infected, but from being licked and cleaned by mom, the pups are exposed and can die. If I was doing a raw diet and I had a pregnant female, I'd simply switch to canned or get a meat grinder and grind the meat and bones (and provide veggies, fruits, and a good source of carbs), and gently cook it. There is no magical pixie dust which makes raw more special and there are, of course, potential drawbacks and dangers. It's a risk benefit analysis. Here's a vet friend of mine's site that explains how to grind the bones for cat food (same idea) for either raw feeding or cooking (so you don't have to add in extra calcium for supplementation if you are using a variety of raw meaty bones).
> 
> http://www.catinfo.org/makingcatfood.htm


Kind of makes me wonder how wild canids have survived for thousands of years eating birds, lizards, and anything else they can catch. My guess is the odds are pretty slim. I think they eat chickens whenever they can get them also.

Nicole, I fed chicken to the dogs raised last summer also......just a leg or a thigh and rotated who got which cut. I also skinned it to avoid all the fat they didn't need during the summer. They all had regular litters. These litters received full leg quarters because it was winter and the skin was left on for the fat.


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## Debbie Skinner

Don, what kibble do you feed? Just in case there has been a change of the formula or a recall, I'd check on this. You changed the diet by feeding some raw, but sometimes the feed companies make changes as well as mistakes.

However, when it's raining (a rarity here normally iin SoCal), I have to treat for girardia, etc a lot more as the dogs/pups drink from puddles and also rain water cleans all the bird poop (cocci) off the trees and contaminate the ground. 

Fading pups that young doesn't sound like this as they sound like they were too weak to thrive for some reason.

I don't have a good source for chicken so I don't have experience feeding raw chicken to pups and dogs. I've always heard that raw chicken can have high bacteria count. But, I can't imagine it has more than the green tripe that I handle regularly and feed my dogs. They drag it through the dirt or mud and like to bury their food and dig it up to eat days later. They never seem to get sick from these practices. The mothers will eat the meat and regurgitate it for the pups as well, which is "special" when people are visiting! :-o


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## Don Turnipseed

Debbie Skinner said:


> Don, what kibble do you feed? Just in case there has been a change of the formula or a recall, I'd check on this. You changed the diet by feeding some raw, but sometimes the feed companies make changes as well as mistakes.
> 
> However, when it's raining (a rarity here normally iin SoCal), I have to treat for girardia, etc a lot more as the dogs/pups drink from puddles and also rain water cleans all the bird poop (cocci) off the trees and contaminate the ground.
> 
> Fading pups that young doesn't sound like this as they sound like they were too weak to thrive for some reason.
> 
> I don't have a good source for chicken so I don't have experience feeding raw chicken to pups and dogs. I've always heard that raw chicken can have high bacteria count. But, I can't imagine it has more than the green tripe that I handle regularly and feed my dogs. They drag it through the dirt or mud and like to bury their food and dig it up to eat days later. They never seem to get sick from these practices. The mothers will eat the meat and regurgitate it for the pups as well, which is "special" when people are visiting! :-o


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## Don Turnipseed

Sorry about that. I had a lengthy answer Debbie but the machine went offline and I lost it. Just as well, most of it was picking at the extremes vets will go to even when they know they can't save an animal. The two calves Maren mentioned dieing are prime examples. Probably didn't have a chance but I bet they got treated anyway. They are what would be called "cash cows" .

Anyway, I feed a kibble that is from a local mill called Farmers Best. They mill and produce a wide range of feeds for all animals suck as cattle, horses, sheep....just about everything.

It is interesting that you mention thriving. Lack of thriving can be from a lot of things. A bad heart causes a major lack of thriving. The salmonela aspect is probably remote at best or many populations of canids would be in trouble, bith wild and domestic. It is scare tactics like that one that keep me away from vets.....and the fact that mjy dogs live 2 to 4 years longer without vet care than they did with it.


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## Connie Sutherland

The patient (or the animal's owner) of the medical doctor for people or the vet are big driving forces behind "do it all just because you can," IMO.

I have asked my vet more than once for the recap of what _could_ be done and then what s/he _would_ do in my situation, and then found my own way.

I find it surprising to hear people say that "scare tactics" could keep them away from vets (or people doctors, who are spoken of similarly all the time). 

I feel equal to choosing my own way without going into avoidance from "scare tactics." :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie Sutherland said:


> The patient (or the animal's owner) of the medical doctor for people or the vet are big driving forces behind "do it all just because you can," IMO.
> 
> I have asked my vet more than once for the recap of what _could_ be done and then what s/he _would_ do in my situation, and then found my own way.
> 
> I find it surprising to hear people say that "scare tactics" could keep them away from vets (or people doctors, who are spoken of similarly all the time).
> 
> I feel equal to choosing my own way without going into avoidance from "scare tactics." :lol:


The tactics don't keep me away Connie, the dogs living longer is most of why I stay away. As far as the tactics I see used , it always works on those that put their faith in their vet. Nothing grate on me more than to have a vet start explaining why my dogs should be neutered for this reason or for that when I know that a very small portion of what they are telling me is true....but it works on a lot of people. I have no problem telling them that I didn't come here to listen to BS. This is what I want done, no more, no less. The only dogs that have been to the vets for years have been pups to get a health cert for shipping. I think it is highly unprofessional to dupe people just because they are't well informed.....but that is why they "trust" their vet. When people pick up pups, I stress that a vet can kill their pup faster than they can.....yet they go right to the vet every time they turn around. They call me telling me about procedure and preventative care the vet suggests. I tell them no, they do it anyway. I tell them to look around the yard and look at the dogs. I tell them non have ever been to a vet. I tell them to take them to a vet for a clear bill of health and then stay away if you want to keep them that way. People trust their vets and that is why they are so susceptible to being duped.


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## Connie Sutherland

My POV is that I am in a health partnership with my own doctor and with my vet.

Being medically "duped" is not really something I think is likely to happen to me, although I may be wildly overestimating my own ability to evaluate and think and read. :lol:

But for those who like to buy every possible procedure and medication known to man, there will certainly be someone out there to sell it to them. I think the same is true of every profession there is. 

But so? I can't see extrapolating this to include the whole profession. Any profession.


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## James Downey

Don, You may have said this already in this lengthy thread. But are you going to go strict kibble? That would be a good acid test to hear about.

Personally almost everyone I know in dog training feeds Raw, many of them have had litters weaned the pups right to raw....I have yet to hear about any cases of Salmonella, E. Coli. or any other pathogens passed mainly by containmated Raw. Though I do know of one study where tripe is heavily infested with E. coli 175 I believe....But I do not know of any breeders who feed tripe to the pups or mama. They may have, but I most I heard just feed a meat, organs, a few veggies and mix it with goats milk to wean the babies.

Actually I have heard more problems from Kibble. Though they are few...I am not saying Kibble is worse and Raw is better with that statement. But just I am not convinced that thier is more danger to feeding raw.

And I am with Don....I do not run to the vet for everything. I used to, but most of the time It's the same song and dance. A few hundered bucks later. The treatment is usually a few meds the dogs really do not need to recover, and a special diet. I will go for a trauma or if the dog is not eating or drinking...and/or if they are not themselves in terms of mood. I hate saying this, But money is not elastic, and vet care is expensive...so it does play a part. Though when Addie got Parvo, I dropped 3k to save her, and it was the right call. She is still alive.

I do have a veterniary guide book that I bought for 25.00 bucks, and it has saved me thousands.


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## Debbie Skinner

James Downey said:


> Don, You may have said this already in this lengthy thread. But are you going to go strict kibble? That would be a good acid test to hear about.
> 
> Personally almost everyone I know in dog training feeds Raw, many of them have had litters weaned the pups right to raw....I have yet to hear about any cases of Salmonella, E. Coli. or any other pathogens passed mainly by containmated Raw. Though I do know of one study where tripe is heavily infested with E. coli 175 I believe....But I do not know of any breeders who feed tripe to the pups or mama. They may have, but I most I heard just feed a meat, organs, a few veggies and mix it with goats milk to wean the babies.
> 
> Actually I have heard more problems from Kibble. Though they are few...I am not saying Kibble is worse and Raw is better with that statement. But just I am not convinced that thier is more danger to feeding raw.
> 
> And I am with Don....I do not run to the vet for everything. I used to, but most of the time It's the same song and dance. A few hundered bucks later. The treatment is usually a few meds the dogs really do not need to recover, and a special diet. I will go for a trauma or if the dog is not eating or drinking...and/or if they are not themselves in terms of mood. I hate saying this, But money is not elastic, and vet care is expensive...so it does play a part. Though when Addie got Parvo, I dropped 3k to save her, and it was the right call. She is still alive.
> 
> I do have a veterniary guide book that I bought for 25.00 bucks, and it has saved me thousands.


I feed tripe to all my dogs..if you feed prey model there is tripe in sheep, goats, beef, deer, elk. If the pups have loose stools, I treat them with the appropriate meds. My bitches whelp outdoor or in the club house whelping box. Normally they try to whelp in an igloo and then I move mom and pups to the club house. It is not heated, but is cooled (our summers are hot). My client is here. more later.


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## Don Turnipseed

James Downey said:


> Don, You may have said this already in this lengthy thread. But are you going to go strict kibble? That would be a good acid test to hear about.
> 
> Personally almost everyone I know in dog training feeds Raw, many of them have had litters weaned the pups right to raw....I have yet to hear about any cases of Salmonella, E. Coli. or any other pathogens passed mainly by containmated Raw. Though I do know of one study where tripe is heavily infested with E. coli 175 I believe....But I do not know of any breeders who feed tripe to the pups or mama. They may have, but I most I heard just feed a meat, organs, a few veggies and mix it with goats milk to wean the babies.
> 
> Actually I have heard more problems from Kibble. Though they are few...I am not saying Kibble is worse and Raw is better with that statement. But just I am not convinced that thier is more danger to feeding raw.
> 
> And I am with Don....I do not run to the vet for everything. I used to, but most of the time It's the same song and dance. A few hundered bucks later. The treatment is usually a few meds the dogs really do not need to recover, and a special diet. I will go for a trauma or if the dog is not eating or drinking...and/or if they are not themselves in terms of mood. I hate saying this, But money is not elastic, and vet care is expensive...so it does play a part. Though when Addie got Parvo, I dropped 3k to save her, and it was the right call. She is still alive.
> 
> I do have a veterniary guide book that I bought for 25.00 bucks, and it has saved me thousands.


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## Don Turnipseed

James Downey said:


> Don, You may have said this already in this lengthy thread. But are you going to go strict kibble? That would be a good acid test to hear about.
> 
> Personally almost everyone I know in dog training feeds Raw, many of them have had litters weaned the pups right to raw....I have yet to hear about any cases of Salmonella, E. Coli. or any other pathogens passed mainly by containmated Raw. Though I do know of one study where tripe is heavily infested with E. coli 175 I believe....But I do not know of any breeders who feed tripe to the pups or mama. They may have, but I most I heard just feed a meat, organs, a few veggies and mix it with goats milk to wean the babies.
> 
> Actually I have heard more problems from Kibble. Though they are few...I am not saying Kibble is worse and Raw is better with that statement. But just I am not convinced that thier is more danger to feeding raw.
> 
> And I am with Don....I do not run to the vet for everything. I used to, but most of the time It's the same song and dance. A few hundered bucks later. The treatment is usually a few meds the dogs really do not need to recover, and a special diet. I will go for a trauma or if the dog is not eating or drinking...and/or if they are not themselves in terms of mood. I hate saying this, But money is not elastic, and vet care is expensive...so it does play a part. Though when Addie got Parvo, I dropped 3k to save her, and it was the right call. She is still alive.
> 
> I do have a veterniary guide book that I bought for 25.00 bucks, and it has saved me thousands.


Did it again!

Howard, I am going to cut it to about 1/2 lb apiece. I placed two 7 mo old dogs yesterday so I am down to 15 as I have been cutting back for the last year. The big males will get a bit more to use a 10lb bag each day but 2 of them are 100 lbs. The pregnant girls are getting Diamond puppy chow and I may cut them down to a small leg as that food is 31% protien already. I really wished the one that has been bred right now was a repeat breeding because it would tell me more. She is a 10th gen bitch that threw 12 healthy pups with an unrelated dog, a litter with her grandfather sucked, and this cross is pretty tight for an 11th gen cross, but, there is some blood in here that is not in this male. I am looking at the previous litters that were fine on about 1/2 the chicken they are getting now.


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## James Downey

The tripe study. It was not E. coli 175. It was 175 times the alloted amount of E.coli to be present in food fit for human consumption by the FDA that was found in tripe. I have feed tripe and no problems. Just cannot get it here in MI.


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## Carol Boche

James Downey said:


> I do have a veterniary guide book that I bought for 25.00 bucks, and it has saved me thousands.


Care to share the name and author with us?.....maybe it could save others money as well. 

I have quite a few in my library too....when I have time I will list them....have to get ready for EMS Continuing Ed class again tonight...will be glad when that is over....it is cutting into my training time.


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## Connie Sutherland

James Downey said:


> .... And I am with Don....I do not run to the vet for everything. .... I will go for a trauma or if the dog is not eating or drinking...and/or if they are not themselves in terms of mood. ...





Don Turnipseed said:


> ... The only dogs that have been to the vets for years have been pups to get a health cert for shipping. ... I tell them to take them to a vet for a clear bill of health and then stay away if you want to keep them that way. ...


They don't sound the same to me. 

A vet manual for $25 -- you done good! 

Is it Merck?


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie, you know I only pick on vets when Maren gets me going....like trying to make it sound like I am too cheap. That is what is so funny....Maren thinks it is just money that would keep someone away from a vet. I can think of a lot of reasons and money is only one of them. Maren should put me on her ignore list so I am not tempted to ask her for numbers to back up many of these possible things that can happen to a dog. I am done with vets for now....my god....what am I saying....I was done with them years ago.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Connie, you know I only pick on vets when Maren gets me going... Maren should put me on her ignore list ...



Or you could put Maren on your ignore list ..... :lol: :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Touche' Connie. LOL


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## James Downey

Carol Boche said:


> Care to share the name and author with us?.....maybe it could save others money as well.
> 
> I have quite a few in my library too....when I have time I will list them....have to get ready for EMS Continuing Ed class again tonight...will be glad when that is over....it is cutting into my training time.


DOG OWNERS HOME VETERINARY HANDBOOK 
By James M. Giffin, MD and Liisa D. Carlson, DVM


I believe the most current edition is the 4th.

It has a bunch of remedies that you can do at home for simple things. And has more direct advice when the dog should see a vet. But A lot of aligments I would have thought a vet could only fix, or prescribe meds for I found I could treat.


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## Debbie Skinner

James Downey said:


> DOG OWNERS HOME VETERINARY HANDBOOK
> By James M. Giffin, MD and Liisa D. Carlson, DVM
> 
> 
> I believe the most current edition is the 4th.
> 
> It has a bunch of remedies that you can do at home for simple things. And has more direct advice when the dog should see a vet. But A lot of aligments I would have thought a vet could only fix, or prescribe meds for I found I could treat.


I've got that one too, but the first edition (1980). My best resource is the Vet Drug Handbook by Plumb. (2nd edition - 1995). The Merck Vet Manual is great too. Mine is 1991..

I need to update! LOL


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## Debbie Skinner

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sorry about that. I had a lengthy answer Debbie but the machine went offline and I lost it. Just as well, most of it was picking at the extremes vets will go to even when they know they can't save an animal. The two calves Maren mentioned dieing are prime examples. Probably didn't have a chance but I bet they got treated anyway. They are what would be called "cash cows" .
> 
> Anyway, I feed a kibble that is from a local mill called Farmers Best. They mill and produce a wide range of feeds for all animals suck as cattle, horses, sheep....just about everything.
> 
> It is interesting that you mention thriving. Lack of thriving can be from a lot of things. A bad heart causes a major lack of thriving. The salmonela aspect is probably remote at best or many populations of canids would be in trouble, bith wild and domestic. It is scare tactics like that one that keep me away from vets.....and the fact that mjy dogs live 2 to 4 years longer without vet care than they did with it.



I had to give a tour of my dogs to a possible puppy buyer and then went to the chiropractor and then trained dogs so the day just flew by.

Most ranchers just cull the extremely sick or seriously injured livestock and do not dr. them. It is what I do as well. The calves must of been something special? Not owned by a typical rancher with hundreds of cattle.

"Farmers Best" kibble. Maybe to be on the safe side try to find out if the batch you were feeding during that time was ok and no recalls. Change of ingredients or recipe? That would eliminate any possibility of a bad batch of kibble. The diet would effect the pregnant bitches, lactating bitches and newborns more than the other adults. I googled them, but couldn't find the company.

Also, if the females in question just hogged the chicken quarters and didn't eat much kibble at all, that could cause an inbalance. However, did you see that happening? Were they eating a large % of their daily ration in raw chicken? 

For example, with my Siamese cats I free feed a grain-free kibble and supplement with raw. It's not a perfect prey model as it's more difficult to do with the cats except when friends are giving me ground squirrels and rabbits. I've never had a problem with the kittens fading and I do line-breed the cats and have done so for over 20 years. The kibble that I free feed though is very high quality (no grains) so I don't know if this would be a consideration.

I do know there is a condition commonly called "butcher's dog" for joint problems caused by feeding a diet mainly of muscle meat that is lacking in the bone and organ meats. I don't know the symptoms for a pregnant bitch eating too much muscle meat. It would be interesting to find out if a symptom would be weak or dead newborns.


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## Geoff Empey

Debbie Skinner said:


> It would be interesting to find out if a symptom would be weak or dead newborns.


For my own info when the stillborn pups arrive, where are they at the development process? Do they die when they are being whelped or is it earlier in the pregnancy? Sorry for the morbid question but just wondering out loud.


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## Nicole Stark

Geoff, I think it's a good question and one I was trying to find out earlier when I asked him what the appearance of those puppies and the bitches was. It would seem to me that if there was a nutritional deficit in the manner it has been described here may have been apparent in some way physically. 

I do know that sometimes if the labor is difficult and one of the pups (generally dead and enormous in size) delays the birthing process that often times the pups born after will perish. While he did have several live births prior to the dead ones somehow that scenario seemed not quite right - even if the first dead puppy wasn't a water puppy or in some way the cause of the others perishing.

I wonder if uterine inertia or eclampsia might fit in here. My gut says that Don might be on to something nutritionally related but may not quite in the manner that's being expressed regarding limited or uncontrolled carb in take or contamination/sickness. I'm thinking rather it may possibly have been driven off either a calcium excess or shortage. Since the puppies were DOA eclampsia does not seem as probable.


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## Debbie Skinner

Geoff Empey said:


> For my own info when the stillborn pups arrive, where are they at the development process? Do they die when they are being whelped or is it earlier in the pregnancy? Sorry for the morbid question but just wondering out loud.


You'd have to ask Don that question. I live is SoCal and he's up north somewhere. We've never met. :?


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## Geoff Empey

Debbie Skinner said:


> You'd have to ask Don that question. I live is SoCal and he's up north somewhere. We've never met. :?


I was more asking in a general way not really directed at Don. More if there was a rhyme and reason to still births in general. Nicole answered a few of the questions in her post. I was more wondering how far along generally they are on average. Like the in the 60th day they die or is it from the trauma of whelping itself, in general. Not so much directed at Don.


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## Don Turnipseed

Geoff Empey said:


> For my own info when the stillborn pups arrive, where are they at the development process? Do they die when they are being whelped or is it earlier in the pregnancy? Sorry for the morbid question but just wondering out loud.


They are fully develped Geoff. A few on the very small side.

Nicole, no water pups but the first timers did have trouble having one and it resulted in the next ones being delayed for several hours but they were all full developed. When the dogs were ingesting a lot of acorns with the black fungus, they were fully developed but were noticeably flat....no substance.


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## Nicole Stark

Don have you given much thought to a possible calcium connection here? I believe you mentioned that the litters were also large, with the girls - all ?, being first time mothers. I assume everyone else is fine currently and there was otherwise no condition problems so I am starting to wonder if uterine inertia may have played a role relative to what your initial suspicion was.


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## Don Turnipseed

I can guess at a couple of things but at the moment, it is pointing to one thing. After in the neighborhood of 180+ litters, there are definite patterns that greatly reduce the need for guesswork. I have reduced the chicken across the board, but, most noticeably to the females. Something should be obvious, but, the problem is it is a first time litter.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Connie, you know I only pick on vets when Maren gets me going....like trying to make it sound like I am too cheap. That is what is so funny....Maren thinks it is just money that would keep someone away from a vet. I can think of a lot of reasons and money is only one of them. Maren should put me on her ignore list so I am not tempted to ask her for numbers to back up many of these possible things that can happen to a dog. I am done with vets for now....my god....what am I saying....I was done with them years ago.


Sorry I haven't been on in a few days. It's calving season in snowy and wet mid Missouri and I've been busy. 

Okay, here's the thing, Don. Your whole "I raise puppies the NATURAL way without vets and highly inbred to see what's REALLY there" is a total house of cards. If you *really* wanted to raise your animals the natural way, why give them them wormer? Vaccines? Shelter? Hell, why feed them AT ALL? Why don't you scrap your dirt lots and pen breeding and just let them run free to deal with the mountain lions, black bears, coyotes, and RATTLESNAKES in northern California? Then we'd REALLY see who is tops in your little breeding experiments. How anyone takes you remotely seriously is beyond me. 

You are either willfully ignorant or completely delusional if you think vets, particularly large animal vets, are out to price gouge. EVERYTHING is done with economics and the animal's best interest in mind and there is a lot of out of work people this corner of the state where their cattle are their only livelihood. Each calf that doesn't make it is several hundred dollars and nine months of time gone, so yes, it does make sense to watch the newborn calves carefully and call us to treat them if they are not doing well, particularly since if they can be salvaged for market, they can still make the producer money. We usually suggest to the producer that they not repeat that breeding or sell the cow after she's weaned the calf in case it was a genetics or maternal problem and not waste more time on her.

I have a pretty good feeling you've been fired from numerous vets, so sounds like a two way street. In addition, anyone trashed and outright LIED (http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/national-docking-ban-11542/index5.html#post160042) about law enforcement officers or soldiers in the military like you trash and lied about vets, they'd probably be told to cease and desist or be banned from this forum, so I'm not really sure why you're allowed to continue. :-k Why would I put you on ignore when no one else would call you on your BS? It's the Sarah Palin effect. Just cause you're a good ol' boy who people think it would be fun to sit around and drink with don't make you right, particularly with medical advice.


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## James Downey

Connie Sutherland said:


> They don't sound the same to me.
> 
> A vet manual for $25 -- you done good!
> 
> Is it Merck?


Okay, Then I am not with him.


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## Joby Becker

Geoff Empey said:


> For my own info when the stillborn pups arrive, where are they at the development process? Do they die when they are being whelped or is it earlier in the pregnancy? Sorry for the morbid question but just wondering out loud.


It varies, some can be long dead, slightly decomposed, mummified even. It depends on when the pup dies, and if the toxicity spreads to the others..

I had one litter where the first pup was the only one born alive, died the next day. Each pup born after that one were dead, and were in incrementally worse shape, and less developed as they came out.


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## James Downey

Maren Bell, I do not think the individual vet is Malicious....at least the majority. Now, as with every walk of life. I am sure some suffer from greed, or just not that good at thier job. 

But there is some Beauracy in Veternary Medicine. If you Google "Hill's AVMA" you will get hits from both organizations boasting about the dozens of donations Hill's makes to the AVMA. Do it with IAMs, also. Every Vet I have been to, stocks thier shelves with these dog foods. I am sure there are companies that make vaccines which do the same. I am not sure if this is true, But I have heard that dog food companies often supply the nutrtional education to veterniary students. This seems to be a huge conflict of interests here. A company that make profit off feeding dogs, is telling Vet students what food is good for dogs...there sure not going to say thier food is shit. Also, the Donations Hill's is reported to be the single largest donator of funds to the AVMA. You cannot tell me the AVMA bites the hand that feeds them. These types of things put a huge doubt in my mind when my vet tells me Raw is going to kill my dogs. Especially when I see dog food getting recalled. What did dogs do before Kibble....just die of disease? The food that was suppose to keep them alive was the thing that was poisioning them? I have also witnessed my dog going for a walk off leash, run up, eat a half decayed bird...and never even get the shits from it. But switch my dogs to kibble and it takes a week for them to have a solid stool. That ain't right. 

I have in attempt to save money, gone back to kibble from time to time...and within a day, my dogs have hotspots....the last one was the size of my hand on my dogs neck, and oozing green shit. I switched back to Raw...I have not had a problem since. 

So, I have my suspicions because private, for profit buisnesses have thier hands in the dealings with a non-profit organization who basically controls the animal medicine field. It's not the Vets themselves who are crooked....It's I do not know who's pulling the strings that worries me.

A good read is "food pets die for"


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## Maren Bell Jones

LOL, don't worry James, preaching to the choir. I've fed raw either partially or exclusively since 2005. I don't mind people feeding it if it's done correctly in a well-thought out manner, but there are lots of ways to do it wrong and there are definitely risks to doing so. There is also nothing magical about raw itself that likely could not be achieved with homecooking, other than you have to supplement calcium in some fashion since cooked whole bones should not be fed. My point is that there *are* risks to feeding raw and to act like there aren't is neither prudent or helpful when people are thinking of switching.

I have also brought the Natura feeding program to our vet school (who makes EVO, Innova, and California Natural) so that our vet students and faculty are now aware of and many now feed a very high quality commercial food that is as interested in the science as they are being a holistic natural food. Unfortunately, extremely high quality pet food is one of the first to go off the budget due to the economy so Natura has had to suspend the program, but hopefully can continue in the future. However, if anyone's dog or cat would benefit from a therapeutic/veterinary diet without a prescription, tell your vet to register at http://www.naturavet.com to see the product selector. It's almost always cheaper than Hill's or Purina's prescription diets as well.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sorry I haven't been on in a few days. It's calving season in snowy and wet mid Missouri and I've been busy.
> 
> Okay, here's the thing, Don. Your whole "I raise puppies the NATURAL way without vets and highly inbred to see what's REALLY there" is a total house of cards. If you *really* wanted to raise your animals the natural way, why give them them wormer? Vaccines? Shelter? Hell, why feed them AT ALL? Why don't you scrap your dirt lots and pen breeding and just let them run free to deal with the mountain lions, black bears, coyotes, and RATTLESNAKES in northern California? Then we'd REALLY see who is tops in your little breeding experiments. How anyone takes you remotely seriously is beyond me.
> 
> You are either willfully ignorant or completely delusional if you think vets, particularly large animal vets, are out to price gouge. EVERYTHING is done with economics and the animal's best interest in mind and there is a lot of out of work people this corner of the state where their cattle are their only livelihood. Each calf that doesn't make it is several hundred dollars and nine months of time gone, so yes, it does make sense to watch the newborn calves carefully and call us to treat them if they are not doing well, particularly since if they can be salvaged for market, they can still make the producer money. We usually suggest to the producer that they not repeat that breeding or sell the cow after she's weaned the calf in case it was a genetics or maternal problem and not waste more time on her.
> 
> I have a pretty good feeling you've been fired from numerous vets, so sounds like a two way street. In addition, anyone trashed and outright LIED (http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/national-docking-ban-11542/index5.html#post160042) about law enforcement officers or soldiers in the military like you trash and lied about vets, they'd probably be told to cease and desist or be banned from this forum, so I'm not really sure why you're allowed to continue. :-k Why would I put you on ignore when no one else would call you on your BS? It's the Sarah Palin effect. Just cause you're a good ol' boy who people think it would be fun to sit around and drink with don't make you right, particularly with medical advice.


Maren, It says a lot when your only retort is to attack me personally as a liar, being willfully ignorant, and completely delusional. You and I have been sashaying around claims you have made since I have been on this board. When it comes down having very specific questions put to you, you vanish and pretend they were never asked.. I usually keep the comments to vets, nothing personal involving you simply because i can make a valid point without getting personal. Seems you have trouble doing that. I have not lied one time when talking about vets. No matter how much you wish it were true...it just isn't so. I have been dealing with vets for longer than you have been alive. I have seen it go from good, sound, no BS care, to the preventative care and BS of todays vets where dogs are treated for things they will likely never get. Where vets over vacinate on a yearly basis for a buck knowing the dogs don't need it. Yes, this came from a vet student many years ago. 
As far as your comment about me being fired by vets....they don't like me but no, I have never been fired. Normally the owner sees my dogs so they can be sure the other vets don't try to BS me like you do. Four vets have been fired so far that have seen my dogs. Why, oh, because of things like telling me a young dog had cataracs in both eyes and it had to be genteic....but they could do the surgery for $500 bucks and eye. Hell Maren she said she had checked both eyes thoroughly ....but she never noticed that the right eye was opaque and the dog was totally blind. Heck, her boss is the one that worked on the eye. She lost her job. The eye was rechecked...there were no cataracs. The dog was my foundation bitch. You may like to think that was a lie, but it isn't....and I could tell many more stories...none are lies. Keep in mind, no one has to believe me...makes no difference. I usually try to avoid talking about vets until you make your "personal" judgements about breeders and dog owners. If you want to use scare tactics about things like puppies getting salmonella from the moms eating raw chicken.....put some figures up.....along with a source so we can see exactly what it really says. Here is an idea to see how much smoke is being blown Maren....go ahead and back up what you said about pups and salmonella. That is a great idea....but I bet this is where you will conveniently disappear again. Personally I would love it if you could prove me wrong...I don't think you can but, let's see some odds of the likely hood of it happening.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I tend to "disappear" because they work us like dogs on these rotations (Sunday is my one day off if there is no emergencies that come in) and I can't sit back and chew tobacco typing out 1000 word responses while benignly neglecting my puppies like you do. 

Why would I even bother listing articles for you, Don? I have in the past on other issues and all you believe in is your own experiences. So here's another view. In March or April, I'm doing an externship with a top repro vet (85% of her practice is reproduction/obstetrics) and she works with a lot of the top working and show folks, so there are definitely a pretty high volume of raw feeders in her practice. She feeds a very high quality commercial diet (either Orijen or Fromm, don't recall), but she likewise has backed off from feeding raw to her own litters of springer spaniels she breeds and during her seminars no longer recommends it because of what she sees, which I guarantee is more litters than you. I met a top working Portugeuse Water Dog breeder last week (her dogs do SAR and one was at 9-11). She no longer feeds raw because one of her dogs nearly died from an esophageal perforation. Pretending there is no risks to raw is one of those willfully ignorant views. 

And yes, you have lied and said that the AVMA and vets like mandatory spay and neuter laws. The AVMA clearly states on their site that they do NOT support mandatory spay and neuter and I have yet to meet a single vet or vet student that supports it either (though there are likely some out there, but it's certainly not held by any sort of majority). You are either making stuff up or lying. Take your pick. Which makes me wonder how much other stuff you make up... :-k


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## James Downey

Maren Bell Jones said:


> LOL, don't worry James, preaching to the choir. I've fed raw either partially or exclusively since 2005. I don't mind people feeding it if it's done correctly in a well-thought out manner, but there are lots of ways to do it wrong and there are definitely risks to doing so. There is also nothing magical about raw itself that likely could not be achieved with homecooking, other than you have to supplement calcium in some fashion since cooked whole bones should not be fed. My point is that there *are* risks to feeding raw and to act like there aren't is neither prudent or helpful when people are thinking of switching.
> 
> I have also brought the Natura feeding program to our vet school (who makes EVO, Innova, and California Natural) so that our vet students and faculty are now aware of and many now feed a very high quality commercial food that is as interested in the science as they are being a holistic natural food. Unfortunately, extremely high quality pet food is one of the first to go off the budget due to the economy so Natura has had to suspend the program, but hopefully can continue in the future. However, if anyone's dog or cat would benefit from a therapeutic/veterinary diet without a prescription, tell your vet to register at http://www.naturavet.com to see the product selector. It's almost always cheaper than Hill's or Purina's prescription diets as well.


Maren...Bring another For Profit Company is just more of the same. Ultimatley thier job is to sell dog food. And if the science always seems to lend itself to a good sales pitch. When an independent group comes, that has no associations to a for profit company, And does an independent study with no motive other than to give the results they find....Than I will believe them. There are Potatoe chips on the shelves, stating "no trans-fat" They're still potatoe chips!

I do not know how Holisitic a food can be when goes through a process to preserve it. Food that can sit on store shelf in a paper bag, without refrigeration for weeks is not the best thing for your dog...Some have even gone to vaccum sealing the bags...but you can open that bag...let it sit for a month and it will be fine. Packaging is another tool to try and convince us they are doing better than the last guy. They claim thier is real meat in these foods...which I do not doubt. But real meat rots. Evo can last as long as Mcyd's french frie. I know I found perfect pellets of it under my washer when I moved...that was 4 years after I had stopped feeding it. 

Evo started thier campaign with claims that it was the equivelent to raw....It's cooked, how could it be!!! Then they changed thier stance to "grain free". They stated it was not that cooking of the food that was the problem, It was the grain that was a problem. It seems whatever science lends itself to selling dog food is the science you hear about. 

I feed my dogs Evo for about a month, after the first bowl they drank water insatiably 4 dogs, 2 of the same breed, but different lines...and 2 mixes. All of them drank water for month as if they dying of thirst. What the hell is in that food?


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## James Downey

I always hear of second hand stories of the bone issues and other RAW feed issues(I grind all my food up through an industrial grinder...makes it easier to store, feed, and I do not have to worry about the bones poking holes in them). But I have yet to hear one first hand. 5 years feeding raw...I do not know exactly how many I know that feed Raw in some form. But it's enough that I would think that if thier was a great risk to it...someone I know would have had a problem in those 5 years.


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## Don Turnipseed

Your graspong at straws Maren. There are a lot of raw feeders and even more oppotunistic dogs that will steal bones, raw cooked or otherwise. House dogs in Ak are probably more likely to be snake bitten than a pup getting salmonella from mom eating raw....or getting the esophogeal whatever it was. I call this the Henny Penny syndrome...you know....the sky is falling....the sky is falling!!!! 

And no Maren, you have never put stats up to prove your point. I am curious, why can you make comments about breeders being "to cheap" to take dogs to the vet.....but vets are supposed to be off limits. LE, attorneys, vets, breeders...everyone gets their shots. And you talk about how much your education is costing you....I can hand you over $300,000 in dog food bills alone and I didn't start saving them from the beginning. Doesn't even take into consideration the vet bills, equipment to take care of the dogs ...or having so many that I have only worked a job part time for over 20 years. Gotta wonder which of us has more invested in their education? But, Mine is paid for. LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones

James Downey said:


> Maren...Bring another For Profit Company is just more of the same. Ultimatley thier job is to sell dog food. And if the science always seems to lend itself to a good sales pitch. When an independent group comes, that has no associations to a for profit company, And does an independent study with no motive other than to give the results they find....Than I will believe them. There are Potatoe chips on the shelves, stating "no trans-fat" They're still potatoe chips!


From my master's degree work and experience with the plastics and BPA industry, I know all too well how who does a study can influence the published results. In fact, I was a bit reticent to even take the student rep position because I'm pretty well known as being a highly independent person anyways. I would have actually preferred for someone else to take the job, but looking back now, I do not regret having over 150 vet students, faculty, residents, and interns try (and usually love) a holistic natural food. Far better than the big four status quo, would you agree? And the unfortunate reality is doing nutrition studies (basically what my masters thesis was on...google my whole name if you are bored and want to read it) is that they are extremely expensive to do in rodents, let alone dogs and cats, so there is not much incentive for anyone but industry to do the studies. But when I do a nutrition residency at some point after vet school, I will have to do some clinical research, so we'll see how that goes. 



> I do not know how Holisitic a food can be when goes through a process to preserve it. Food that can sit on store shelf in a paper bag, without refrigeration for weeks is not the best thing for your dog...Some have even gone to vaccum sealing the bags...but you can open that bag...let it sit for a month and it will be fine. Packaging is another tool to try and convince us they are doing better than the last guy. They claim thier is real meat in these foods...which I do not doubt. But real meat rots. Evo can last as long as Mcyd's french frie. I know I found perfect pellets of it under my washer when I moved...that was 4 years after I had stopped feeding it.


I do not necessarily disagree with your first few sentences. Doing a well thought out, easy to prepare homemade diet (raw or cooked) would absolutely be ideal. No doubt. But many pet owners can't even cook for themselves, let alone for their pets. Your issue isn't a Natura thing, it's a commercial vs home prepared diet thing. If you disagree with kibble entirely, well, can't help you much there. Natura uses only natural preservatives (vitamin E, C, and rosemary extract) and they have a limited shelf life of less than a year. Four year old bits of kibble is not going to be nutritionally as good as fresh out of the bag, which is why they have expiration dates. :wink: Kibble doesn't rot because of the low moisture content, just as beef jerky doesn't rot. But if you get it wet, it sure can. 



> Evo started thier campaign with claims that it was the equivelent to raw....It's cooked, how could it be!!! Then they changed thier stance to "grain free". They stated it was not that cooking of the food that was the problem, It was the grain that was a problem. It seems whatever science lends itself to selling dog food is the science you hear about.


I don't recall them ever marketing it as the "equivalent" tor raw, just "what to feed when you can't feed raw" or something to that extent. They were the first to have a grain free food and I'm not sure why that's a negative point? While not all dogs do well on a grain free diet (I own one like that), not sure why that's a bad thing to promote.



> I feed my dogs Evo for about a month, after the first bowl they drank water insatiably 4 dogs, 2 of the same breed, but different lines...and 2 mixes. All of them drank water for month as if they dying of thirst. What the hell is in that food?


Kibble of just about any brand is 10% moisture and raw is about 70ish% moisture. So it makes sense that your dogs would need to drink more. My dogs when going from raw to kibble or my cat going from canned to kibble are the same way. The cat in particular drinks much less when he gets canned food (which is most of the time as that is more appropriate for cats anyways). In fact, in the ICU, that's one reason we prefer to give patients canned food as a way to keep them hydrated along with IV fluids.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your graspong at straws Maren. There are a lot of raw feeders and even more oppotunistic dogs that will steal bones, raw cooked or otherwise. House dogs in Ak are probably more likely to be snake bitten than a pup getting salmonella from mom eating raw....or getting the esophogeal whatever it was. I call this the Henny Penny syndrome...you know....the sky is falling....the sky is falling!!!!
> 
> And no Maren, you have never put stats up to prove your point. I am curious, why can you make comments about breeders being "to cheap" to take dogs to the vet.....but vets are supposed to be off limits. LE, attorneys, vets, breeders...everyone gets their shots. And you talk about how much your education is costing you....I can hand you over $300,000 in dog food bills alone and I didn't start saving them from the beginning. Doesn't even take into consideration the vet bills, equipment to take care of the dogs ...or having so many that I have only worked a job part time for over 20 years. Gotta wonder which of us has more invested in their education? But, Mine is paid for. LOL


So everyone gets in their shots...except puppy pimps like you that you make so much off these dogs you intentionally neglect and market as being so innovative that you only need a part time job? Gotcha. Say no more. Well then, you've got all the time in the world then to go search Dr. Google since you know everything already. Find the studies yourself. Not that you would ever change anyways because you are so convinced you're right. I pity your animals, I really do.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Uhhhhh James, what kind of grinder do you have? I need one that will grind whole chicken parts, bones and all to hamburger consistency. BTW, not all dogs tolerate raw. I had one. Truth be told she had other things that hinted at an insufficient immune system like inability to tolerate any heat and she died of cancer at ten. However, if I gave her raw without flashing it first in boiling water--she got sick. I do know of two corgis that died with perforated esophaguses. We kinda alterate between raw chicken leg quarters and a cooked homemade diet. Dogs do really well on it and the soon to be 14 year olds seemed have more spark after we switched from grain free kibble [Evo and TOTW].

Terrasita


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## Jennifer Marshall

Maren, I am not a vet or a breeder. I have met Don and seen his dogs and own one of his pups. It may be a moot point for me to even mention it, but I did not see any signs of his dogs being neglected, unhealthy, or wanting for anything. The pups were happy, healthy, and lively. 

I have nothing against vets in general, but I avoid them unless it is necessary. I have had bad experiences with vets in 3 different states, I had a vet tell me my dog had heartworms and I needed to immediately and aggressively treat it to the tune of $800. I had him tested at 2 other vets and he was negative for heartworms. I had a vet take one of my dogs to the back for xrays and without my consent gave my dog the full spectrum of vaccinations while he was back there and then charge me for it! I'm sure most people have horror stories about vets, and for some it is enough to write off the entire profession.

I try to keep an open mind, but I do not believe that animals need every scratch or trauma treated by a vet. There can be a fine line between neglect and "natural" care but IMO Don is not anywhere near that line. So he keeps his dogs outside, so what? Would it be better if they were kept in a pen in a basement or garage? Or to have all the dogs in concrete and chain link kennels all the time?

I have not seen many, maybe 30 litters of pups, but some of the healthiest were raised without vaccination or vet care. The dog I caught with a fishing net that was completely wild, had never been handled by people until that day when he was 13 weeks old - living in a den and running around the SE Wisconsin woods thick with WNV carrying mosquitoes, ticks, and disease carrying wildlife - his entire litter was healthy and full of fire. One litter of pits I helped out with was almost wiped out when half of the pups got parvo *from the vets office.*

He posted that he lost a lot of pups in these last few litters. It happens. He is speculating as the reason and working on changing what he did differently this time around so that he can work to prevent it. I know(of) people that would have just shrugged their shoulders and carried on without a second thought. I know (of) people that would feed the dead pups to their other dogs. And no I am not friends with these people.

I don't think it's fair to bring up what Don potentially makes off his pups. I know people that charge 3-5$ for pups that have had less care than Don's. A lot, if not most, breeders make a profit from selling pups, that does not make them bad people or automatically put them in the "puppy mill" category.


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## Nicole Stark

James Downey said:


> But I have yet to hear one first hand. 5 years feeding raw...I do not know exactly how many I know that feed Raw in some form. But it's enough that I would think that if thier was a great risk to it...someone I know would have had a problem in those 5 years.


I speculate the "great risk" is largely dependent upon the variety of and form in which you feed raw. Back in September, my dog suffered from a laceration to her salvary duct severe enough to be scheduled for surgery to repair it later that week. The laceration came from a lamb neck bone that had been cut by a saw and not obviously in its natural form. We projected about a $600 surgery although the spay, hip re check, and an elective gastropexy offset that considerably with a grand total of all procedure combined running about a $1500-1700 estimate.

Not entirely relevant but I did find it interesting that she healed in a matter of 5 days well enough to not need the surgery. The vets said that they've seen that happen maybe twice in about 20 years of practice given the extent of the wound. Also of interest is not once was the subject of how it happened brought up outside the initial visit.

Many people who feed raw, play it pretty safe going with a diet largely based upon chicken/tirkey and ground beef or offal. For those who don't grind that also make a point to offer variety the risk is most certainly there. Frankly, as safe as any one wants to feel they've been it's not something you want to announce when an injury or death does occur from raw feeding.


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## Debbie Skinner

Don, Here is a link to a list of several Raw Forums: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/174099 I belong to the RawBreeders one. Maybe your question can be answered by other raw breeders. I belong to the rawbreeder list. I feed raw and don't grind for any of the dogs or cats except for the very young ones. I want one of those commercial grinders as it would be handy to have when feeding young pups, but it's on my wish list for now.

I throw the tripe, lungs, meat bones of livestock to the dogs. I do grind up some organ meat and meat and mix it with grain free kibble for the pups using a food processor. I'm on my 3rd one as they keep breaking or burning up..imagine that!. The bitches will eat and regergatate for the pups (natural grinding). I haven't noticed anything weird with the puppies so far. 

My Beauceron bitch "Bijou" just whelped on Saturday. She couldn't hold them in until Valentine's Day as there were too many! She has 5 males and 6 female and 1 weak/dead one (by the next morning). So she whelped 12 with 11 healthy normal size pups. 

This is off topic a bit, but did I stay and watch over her? "no". I checked in on her several times, but did not help or bother her in anyway. Did she know what to do? "yes, she went through the doggie door into the whelping box and had her puppies and cleaned them up and took care of them like all my girls do. It's not exactly outside as it's a small club house with tile floor and music and lighting and ac/fan. The whelping box is full of grass hay. This is her 3rd litter. 

One thing though that I do believe in is to treat for parasites and gastointestinal problems (loose stools, etc.) in puppies immediately. I know this is not natural, however I believe no one raises their dogs in a natural way to prevent the accumulation of germs, parasites, etc as we are not nomads and thus the dogs and us live in one location. We bring contaminates home by going to the vet, bringing in other dogs, visitors, taking trips with our dogs/pups, etc. 

In the wild, the dogs could move around and parasites are not going to accumulate where they live. Even with livestock, you must either rotate the pastures (living areas) every few weeks or you must treat them with a wormer. 

This is why I keep wormers (Panacur, Strongid, Droncit), for Cocci tx (Corid and Albon), for Giardia (Panacur, Flagyl) and also antibiotics (Amoxi, Cipro/Baytril, Cephalaxin) on hand to treat for routine health problems.

I've had good and bad experiences with vets as well as with doctors, mechanics, contractors, etc. With doctors and vets, it is more emotional when things go right or wrong though.

Photos of Bijou/Avatar 11 puppies taken on Valentine's Day.


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## Robin Van Hecke

There is a documentary floating around that was aired by the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). The program was called " The Fifth Estate" or "Market Place". The subject was the vet industry and some of the questionable practices that occurred within it. One segment focused on a conference held in Banff, a very posh resort located in the Canadian Rockies. It drew vets from Canada and the US and was sponsored by some of the major drug manufacterurs. The CBC managed to sneak a hidden camera into one of the seminars where the guest speaker lectured on ways to make vet practices more profitable. He spoke of how to deal with custumers in convincing them to have certain procedures and treatments performed with the main goal of padding the bottom line. It was all about the MONEY and no attempt was made to make it look as if animal welfare was the focus. 
Maybe someone with more time than me could dig up a link to this program.
Myself, I use a vet as a absolute last resort as I constantly see examples of people being gouged and having their emotions played with in order to increase profits.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So everyone gets in their shots...except puppy pimps like you that you make so much off these dogs you intentionally neglect and market as being so innovative that you only need a part time job? Gotcha. Say no more. Well then, you've got all the time in the world then to go search Dr. Google since you know everything already. Find the studies yourself. Not that you would ever change anyways because you are so convinced you're right. I pity your animals, I really do.


LOL Maren, your going to make a fine vet. You will fit right in with that 99%. I have to surmise from your answer...that you have no answer yet once again. I am sure many here remember my attemp to give you a sense of what a practicle vet care is from a breeders standpoint. Practicle does not include being lectured about the thousands of things that, while possible, are so remote a possibility of ever happening . This seems to be your strong suit....the very unlikely.

I used the quote feature Maren....just so you can see how littles sense you make. My dogs have enough titles in different fields to stand on their own Maren and you really shouldn't feel sorry for them because they are not getting your kind of vet care. Quite the contrary. The safe bet is they will outlive yours.


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## Don Turnipseed

I remember that Robin. From the pablum Maren dishes out, she probably has the link to it at her fingertips. Could you post the link for the rest of us Maren?


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## susan tuck

The thing is, I have found there are money grubbing sons of bitches and incompetent dolts in all professions, from politicians to the legal profession to the insurance industry to dog trainers to dog breeders. I don't think the veterinary profession is any different, and I have seen nothing that leads me to believe the percentages of good vs bad are any different than in the human medical arena. Personally, I have some wonderful veterinarians and I do not begrudge them the right to make a good wage, their services and expertise are worth it to me. I have had experience with vets I did not think had my animals best interest at heart or were not good diagnosticians and when that has happened I move on, as with anything else.

I found the video I think you are talking about Robin. I found it to be very one sided and typically sensationalized by the media organization that produced it. Are you aware that even in Canada, not all prescription drugs prescribed for people have capped prices? I have always been aware that I can take a prescription from my vet and have it filled at a pharmacy, all you have to do is ask the vet for the written prescription. and I have never had a vet get mad at me for asking. I think it's funny the "expose" never once mentioned there are legitimate reason prices vary considering overhead costs vary. Just intimated it's some deep dark horrible secret that the prices are much higher than what the vets pay, which obviously it's not. 

As far as the man at the conference, the sound byte sure did make it sound like he was advocating price gouging - but it was just a few second sound byte, which makes me very suspicious. I would need to read the entire lecture before I were to pass judgement. I really have no problem with the fact that the conference was held in Banff, but the fact that the news people even tried to make that seem suspect just because Banff is a resort town was another sign that this news expose was grasping at straws in their attempts to vilify the veterinary industry. http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/cat_got_your_wallet/


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## James Downey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Uhhhhh James, what kind of grinder do you have? I need one that will grind whole chicken parts, bones and all to hamburger consistency. BTW, not all dogs tolerate raw. I had one. Truth be told she had other things that hinted at an insufficient immune system like inability to tolerate any heat and she died of cancer at ten. However, if I gave her raw without flashing it first in boiling water--she got sick. I do know of two corgis that died with perforated esophaguses. We kinda alterate between raw chicken leg quarters and a cooked homemade diet. Dogs do really well on it and the soon to be 14 year olds seemed have more spark after we switched from grain free kibble [Evo and TOTW].
> 
> Terrasita


 
I have a turbo air german knife 2.5 horses.


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## Carol Boche

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> what kind of grinder do you have?


This grinder works great for me......had it 4yrs now and never had an issue with it

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_36989_36989

I like this one....
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_48602_48602

Only because in winter I use a saws all on A LOT of carcass....


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## Robin Van Hecke

susan tuck said:


> The thing is, I have found there are money grubbing sons of bitches and incompetent dolts in all professions, from politicians to the legal profession to the insurance industry to dog trainers to dog breeders. I don't think the veterinary profession is any different, and I have seen nothing that leads me to believe the percentages of good vs bad are any different than in the human medical arena. Personally, I have some wonderful veterinarians and I do not begrudge them the right to make a good wage, their services and expertise are worth it to me. I have had experience with vets I did not think had my animals best interest at heart or were not good diagnosticians and when that has happened I move on, as with anything else.
> 
> I found the video I think you are talking about Robin. I found it to be very one sided and typically sensationalized by the media organization that produced it. Are you aware that even in Canada, not all prescription drugs prescribed for people have capped prices? I have always been aware that I can take a prescription from my vet and have it filled at a pharmacy, all you have to do is ask the vet for the written prescription. and I have never had a vet get mad at me for asking. I think it's funny the "expose" never once mentioned there are legitimate reason prices vary considering overhead costs vary. Just intimated it's some deep dark horrible secret that the prices are much higher than what the vets pay, which obviously it's not.
> 
> As far as the man at the conference, the sound byte sure did make it sound like he was advocating price gouging - but it was just a few second sound byte, which makes me very suspicious. I would need to read the entire lecture before I were to pass judgement. I really have no problem with the fact that the conference was held in Banff, but the fact that the news people even tried to make that seem suspect just because Banff is a resort town was another sign that this news expose was grasping at straws in their attempts to vilify the veterinary industry. http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/cat_got_your_wallet/


Sure, I hear you and I am by no means a lemming and take for granted all I hear from the media but do try to read between the lines when trying to reach a conclusion on something. I have to trust my intuition and own logic. You liken the vet industry to a bunch of others but how many professions do you know of where so much sentiment and emotion is involved when customers are faced with making a logicaL decision? Lawyers are what come to mind and we all know about lawyers, don't we?


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## Connie Sutherland

Robin Van Hecke said:


> You liken the vet industry to a bunch of others but how many professions do you know of where so much sentiment and emotion is involved when customers are faced with making a logicaL decision?



Every medical professional, Robin, as well as funeral and cemetery people, house realtors, private school and college administrators ..... too many to list. 

Tattoo artists! 


Maren has posted study after study and photo after photo in response to people actually asking questions. 

Don presents anecdotal evidence which is drawn from many years of experience with a particular individual breeding protocol and POV.

Don has explained many times that his personal experience with vets (and some other professions) has been unsatisfactory.

Maren finds it objectionable to paint an entire profession with a wide brush. (I do too, for that matter. My own experiences don't mirror Don's at all, and I suspect that we are of a similar age; also, although I'm not a breeder, more than one aspect of my dog experience has brought me into a lot of vet contact.)

In other words, we have some widely disparate POVs here.

Let's keep it out of attack mode, and let's refrain from the all-vet-bashing that crops up.

As Sue said,_ "The thing is, I have found there are money grubbing sons of bitches and incompetent dolts in all professions, from politicians to the legal profession to the insurance industry to dog trainers to dog breeders. "_

Let's move on.


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## Connie Sutherland

Carol Boche said:


> This grinder works great for me......had it 4yrs now and never had an issue with it
> 
> http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_36989_36989
> 
> I like this one....
> http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_48602_48602
> 
> Only because in winter I use a saws all on A LOT of carcass....


I think there are several here who use and like the Northern Tool grinder.


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## Don Turnipseed

There are good vets, there are bad vets....a disproportionate number in the second category in this area. I am not so much concerned about their pricing as I just call another one if I don't like the price and it is something I think needs doing. Here is an example. I had 23 pups years ago. I am not great at taking the front dew claws of with the cartilage connection. I called 3 vets. They all wanted a 35 buck office call per pup and 20 bucks for dew claws and 20 bucks for each tail. I thanked them for the info, went out and cut the tails in about 10 minutes and have nhever done another dew claw. Problem solved. It cost me nothing and they wanted 75 bucks a pup with 23 pups to be done. Who do you suppose lost there? I am not paying an office call for each pup.

I have a good vet. I did have to sit him down years back and explain what I considered "practical vet care" from my perspective. Or, simply put, "Don't try to blow smoke up my butt" We have gotten along fine since then. Do I care if he charges 80 bucks for a 30 second vet check and cert for flying. No because I don't pay it. 

Recently, I had a couple that act in soap operas buy two pups. I got a call with them ready to cry from the sound of it. The vet told them they should have one of the pups euthanized because he had an extremely bad heart and with a stethascope, you could hear the whooshing as the blood rushed through the opening. They asked me what they should do. I told them to ignore the vet and explained to them the dog was thriving and had trippled his size from 4 weeks to 8 weeks. Dogs don't put that kind of weight on when they have that bad of a heart. I told them to call me in 3 weeks and tell me what the dog weighed then. The dog doubled his weight in those three weeks. Went from 9 lbs to 18 lbs. The vet checked the pup and there was no more whooshing as the valve or whatever had closed. Three week later for the last shot, there was no sign of a murmur or anything and the pup weighed 29lbs. The vet was very sorry he had upset them yadda, yadda, yadda. As far as I am concerned, the vet should have given them a free visit for his gross screw up but that will never happen. The people paid dearly for bad info and advice.


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie said
"Don has explained many times that his personal experience with vets (and some other professions) has been unsatisfactory."

You bet, I don't enjoy clipping 25 dogs but I am not paying what those groomers want so I do it myself. Don't see them falling apart. I got big bucks inveted in grooming stuff. Three pairs of horse clippers, 3 dog clippers, etc etc. Gives me a real hands on with each individual dog....and I have actually got it down where I can have a dog off the table in 30 minutes after it has spent the winter in the snow and rain. Horse clippers eliminated the hours of bathing and brushing. Many of those darn groomers don't know how to do and airedale anyway. They give them a schnauzer cut. LOL Darn groomers.


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## Connie Sutherland

_"The people paid dearly for bad info and advice."_

And I could type about the vets who have saved the lives of my own dogs who I wanted saved, such as one in shock from a sting -- and several about vet surgeons with other dogs. But then the whole "was the dog worth saving" yada yada happens. Well, to me, yes. To you, maybe no.

My opinion, your opinion .... everyone has one, as they say. :lol:

Anecdotes about vets can go on and on and on and on. We usually tend to talk about the most recent or dramatic one. Or the ones that bolsters our current point.


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## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> Connie said
> "Don has explained many times that his personal experience with vets (and some other professions) has been unsatisfactory."
> 
> You bet, I don't enjoy clipping 25 dogs but I am not paying what those groomers want so I do it myself. Don't see them falling apart. I got big bucks inveted in grooming stuff. Three pairs of horse clippers, 3 dog clippers, etc etc. Gives me a real hands on with each individual dog....and I have actually got it down where I can have a dog off the table in 30 minutes after it has spent the winter in the snow and rain. Horse clippers eliminated the hours of bathing and brushing. Many of those darn groomers don't know how to do and airedale anyway. They give them a schnauzer cut. LOL Darn groomers.


From your description I have a picture in my mind similar to a sheep shearer in Australia - zip zip zip "NEXT"!!! \\/

I agree, most groomers haven't a clue as to how to clip an airedale, to say nothing of how to hand strip a dog.


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## Don Turnipseed

What was this thread about anyway???


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## Anna Kasho

Connie Sutherland said:


> And I could type about the vets who have saved the lives of my own dogs who I wanted saved, such as one in shock from a sting and several vet surgeons with other dogs. But then the whole "was the dog worth saving" yada yada happens. Well, to me, yes. To you, maybe no.
> 
> My opinion, your opinion .... everyone has one, as they say. :lol:
> 
> Anecdotes about vets can go on and on and on and on. We usually tend to talk about the most recent or dramatic one. Or the ones that bolsters our current point.


Yes indeed. If I do not feel it necessary to run to the vet with everything, it is entirely my call. 

As far as the whole "health profesionals are out to do good and help people" argument, I had another friend (a computer programmer) who specialised in writing software for hospitals that would automaticaly calculate every test and treatment for the symptoms of every patient, and would spit out a list in order from most to least expensive. haha. That is probably the reason another friend, who stabbed himself in the hand with a test tube and went to the ER, got charged $95 for having his temperature taken... :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Anna Kasho said:


> ... another friend, who stabbed himself in the hand with a test tube and went to the ER, got charged $95 for having his temperature taken... :lol:


:lol:

Anyway, the thread (the actual thread re: the O.P.) has gone its way. Don says he may revisit the question when he has produced a few litters with an adjusted feeding program.


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