# Feed 100% raw or not at all?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Wondering why someone with what should be a knowledgeable and respected opinion on raw feeding would tell me to feed all raw or not at all, as opposed to doing one meal good kibble and one meal raw each day.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

they say the dogs digestive system has trouble processing different food types that way.
I am not a K-9 nutritionalist (is that a word??) anyway......I mix about 1 cup of raw ground deer meat with dry kibble for my dogs. I have done this for many years with MANY dogs and never....NOT ONE TIME have I seen any problems with it. Maybe I will see problems down the road at some point, but so far I have never had any problems with it at all. Either I have been lucky enough to get hundreds of dogs in here with iron guts, or it really is not a problem with a normal healthy dog. not sure which???


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

I myself do it as a mix, I don't do one raw meal and one kibble meal.

I should be switching him to one meal a day soon, as he is still young. For now, I do 2 meals.

I just dump and mix raw and kibble int he nowl for both meals, not feeding them separate.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

For the first year of my schH dog's life I alternated, a raw meal then a kibble meal, raw, kibble, raw, kibble, and so on. He never had any problems with it. After one year I switched to 100% RAW. I know some people who feed a mixture of kibble and RAW together, and they all tell me their dogs have no problems with a mixed diet. 

I've heard the same reason as Mike said about time of digestion. If I recall, I think it had to do with bacteria maybe? Something about a dog being more susceptible to infection or illness due to bacteria issues from the RAW because bacteria would be trapped in the intestines longer since kibble digests slower?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> I've heard the same reason as Mike said about time of digestion. If I recall, I think it had to do with bacteria maybe? Something about a dog being more susceptible to infection or illness due to bacteria issues from the RAW because bacteria would be trapped in the intestines longer since kibble digests slower?


I believe the theory is that kibble takes longer to digest than raw like you said, the problem I have with that is any dog I've owned and fed straight kibble to shits more often and in larger quantities.

Yes, it can be explained by the fact that raw is utilised more efficiently so less shit right..but going by this theory isn't more bacteria being absorbed by the dog ? If it can be damaging to have it in the intestines longer, why isn't it damaging when it is digested and used by the body ?

I feed raw only now but I have fed raw/kibble/cooked meat and rice and scraps to many sleddogs with no real issues in the past.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

my orig question wasnt so much about mixing them together (which I have heard people warn about), but about overall, the belief that you should do raw exclusively or not at all.....


didnt make any sense to me (I know little about dog nutrition, but a lot about human nutrition), I think the person said something about it taking three weeks to "detoxify" from a kibble diet if you switch to raw, so I think their theory had something to do with that


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Detox is a pretty strong term, probably a marketing term as well.

I think maybe getting used to the different texture and taste would be more accurate, I question the difference at times between raw and kibble because although I have fed raw for 8 yrs and it works fine...it's kind of getting to be a trend now and I just don't like being trendy :lol:


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I feed totally raw & have for over 6 years. I believe that it is the fact that the pancreas needs to develope sufficient quantities of certain digestive enzymes to digest & absorb a raw diet efficiently is what they are talking about as far as a 'detox' period. I have not had this issue, as my dogs have been weaned to raw from their breeders. Not sure that I would call is a detox period, though. More like an adjustment period.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I have no problems switching off raw to kibble. In fact I switch kibble every time I go to the store.
My theory is, if there is something in one kibble causing long term problems they'll never have enough of it to kill em. I always over lap bags to get them used to the next food. They rarely get diarrhea/ hopefully I didn't just jinx myself. I won't pay over 50 dollars for a bag of food anymore, I'd rather feed raw all the time than do that. They get raw 2 or 3 times a week and choclate cake and Busch beer on Sundays, absolutely no problems.


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## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

Your dogs must have iron stomachs...to tolerate Busch beer:!:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

You know I think there are RAW "activists" Who promote that kibble is evil. I have seen many many dogs live long healthy lives eating Eukanuba. I have seen people mix, feed both together....I think food is still food no matter cooked or raw and the body is an amazing machine much more capable than people give it credit for. So, I think no matter what....The dog will most likely be alright.


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## Jessica Gainer (Oct 9, 2009)

I've been feeding raw for 11 years now... I have heard that they digest the different types of food differently and I always thought that to be true. Besides that... My thinking is... why feed both? You either think Kibble is good or raw is good... I feed raw because *I think* it is better then any kibble out there so why would I only feed it half the time??? I feel it would be useless to feed raw when feeding kibble.... IMO


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Matt, 

There is no reasoning to feed 100% RAW other than if your going to feed 50%, why not feed 100%? 

I feed kibble at times, mainly because hubby refuses to feed raw when I travel....

I do not feed raw/kibble at the same time, some do it without issues, BUT, raw food takes 3 to 5 hours to digest and pass and kibble takes 12hrs plus to digest and pass. I am not willing to risk something like salmonella poisoning with feeding it together. 9 times out of ten it won't happen, but what if it does? That is what I ask myself. 

I started feeding 50/50 and it was just an issue with having to buy both raw food and kibble so I picked one and have for the most part, stuck with it. 

My dogs are SO much better for it, in my opinion. I have been doing it since 2002 now. 
If I forget to thaw something or run out of meat, I use Honest Kitchen or another premade raw diet. I keep that on hand in the freezer. 

I will say that winter is easier feeding than the warmer months due to hunters and what not that bring me all kinds of stuff for the dogs and since it is so cold here, it can sit outside frozen until I can use the saws all to cut it up and place it in the freezer. 

Feeding a quality kibble is not disagreeable to me either. I feed either Wellness Core, Chicken Soup, Nutro (not the best but ALL dogs do WELL on it), Canidae and Taste of the Wild. 

That is about the only grains my dogs get. Grains are hard on the pancreas of the dog....even though they are proteins, the dogs pancreas has to work twice to three times as hard to extract those proteins, which is why they have two to three times as much waste (poop) as with raw. All of my dogs only go once a day (maybe twice if I switch a meat)....and it is SO much easier to keep the yards clean. They also drink less water since they get more out of the raw....a little spooky at first since dogs generally drink quite a bit....kind of like us eating a bag of chips without a drink as opposed to a bag of fresh veggies....we would drink less with the veggies. 

I don't fault anyone if they feed half and half....over time, most will see that 100% will be easier.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol beat me. _ QUOTE: do not feed raw/kibble at the same time, some do it without issues, BUT, raw food takes 3 to 5 hours to digest and pass and kibble takes 12hrs plus to digest and pass. I am not willing to risk something like salmonella poisoning with feeding it together. 9 times out of ten it won't happen, but what if it does? That is what I ask myself. END QUOTE_

Many owners mix kibble and raw with nary a problem.

BUT:

Dogs have a couple of great defenses against pathogen colonization.

One is their stomach acid, which is far more caustic than our own.

Another is their short fast digestive system. (Ours is looooooong and slooooooow.) That short journey from one end to the other is great for limiting the opportunity for food pathogens to colonize (and that's what causes the illness: their proliferation).* 

Fresh food takes about 3 to 6 hours for dogs to digest. Kibble takes up to three times as long. IOW, the kibble slows the process by a lot, thereby affecting one of the two biggest defenses dogs have against foodborne pathogens.

I would not give antacids to a dog on raw and I would not cause the digestion time to be two or three times the natural raw-processing rate.

Again, many people do it. Many dogs are fine with it, and nothing ever happens.

But I think it's not a good idea. 


*
In fact, there are several classes of meds that contribute to human susceptibility to food pathogen illness, too -- such as antacids and any med that slows the passage of food through the gastrointestinal tract.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jane Jean said:


> Your dogs must have iron stomachs...to tolerate Busch beer:!:


OK I admit, a wee bit gassy


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Let me clarify that I don't feed both on the same day unless its ground in the kibble(spice it up). Never chicken bones with kibble. I feed once a day also.
Lots of people have their reasons for doing things. I know someone who stop giving their dogs heart guard after 2 of theirs multiple dogs got heart worms 15 years ago and were taking heart guard. They have not had one get heart worms since. Not saying it would work for everyone but then again there is no one answer for many things when it comes to dogs..


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

i feed two meals a week kibble. just so the big border collie mix is used to eating kibble sometimes. i find it it easier to feed kibble when traveling. road trips with coolers full of chicken parts and freezer packs are a pain in the ass. also sometimes people we stay with would just get grossed out with feeding RAW. my cousins are real cool but i have a feeling some of them would uninvite us to stay at their house if i was letting the dog gnaw apart a chicken leg quarter in their kitchen. he has had no ill effects from this and we've been doing it bout three years now.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Jessica Porter said:


> I've been feeding raw for 11 years now... I have heard that they digest the different types of food differently and I always thought that to be true. Besides that... My thinking is... why feed both? You either think Kibble is good or raw is good... I feed raw because *I think* it is better then any kibble out there so why would I only feed it half the time??? I feel it would be useless to feed raw when feeding kibble.... IMO




Just like with a person, there are many times you would want a protein shake or meal replacement like MetRx, but there are times when a steak and salad are good too. Also, for your typical person, there are times when convenience will make you go with a meal replacement, and the best you can do is a balance of both.

People reasoning, but I would think it would apply


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I was told not to give my dog hot dogs because there are nitrates????
Well, when I stop eating lunch meat I'll start worrying about my dogs getting to much nitrates.
When I started worrying about my dogs menu more than my own, I knew it was getting out of hand.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I was told not to give my dog hot dogs because there are nitrates????
> Well, when I stop eating lunch meat I'll start worrying about my dogs getting to much nitrates.
> When I started worrying about my dogs menu more than my own, I knew it was getting out of hand.


I feed hot dogs for treats...low sodium ones....there are certain things I absolutely will NOT feed...but as with us humans....

moderation, moderation, moderation.....LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dogs are scavangers. Do what you want to, it is not going to make some huge difference. The people that "see" the difference are believers. They will tell you they see a huge difference, and I swear to you, I am lookimg at the same dog, and I see **** all different.

This is another truth. I have seen more dogs that are healthy and up and running at 13 and older that are fed Alpo, Ol'Roy, Gravy Train and foods like that than I have EVER seen any of the hot foods. Usually with the hot foods, there are skin problems and the dog looks like he is 20 years old at 7.

The other thing to consider is it is always girls that "see" the difference. Why anyone is so fascinated by dog shit is beyond me, but women are designed to be believers, so take some of this with a grain of salt.

Just feed your dog whatever you want, and figure that if you are thinking about his food that much, you need to train more. Kinda like the rest of these goofs.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dogs are scavangers. Do what you want to, it is not going to make some huge difference. The people that "see" the difference are believers. They will tell you they see a huge difference, and I swear to you, I am lookimg at the same dog, and I see **** all different.
> 
> This is another truth. I have seen more dogs that are healthy and up and running at 13 and older that are fed Alpo, Ol'Roy, Gravy Train and foods like that than I have EVER seen any of the hot foods. Usually with the hot foods, there are skin problems and the dog looks like he is 20 years old at 7.
> 
> ...


LMFAO.....:mrgreen::mrgreen:

I do see a difference...really!!!!!:-\"8):lol::lol:

I do agree with Jeff in a way though.....I have seen dogs eat sh*t food all their lives and look and act GREAT!!! Just not what I would feed. 

I don't push raw on anyone, nor do I push feeding raw. It is up to the owner what they want to feed, and as long as they don't bitch when my dog is crunching down half a chicken, bone and all, then I won't bitch that they are feeding foods that have rendered euthanized animals in them in which there are levels of the barbituates they were euthanized with in the foods they are feeding.......:evil:=P~=P~=P~

(and I have been known to drag road kill home in the winter....LOL )


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

What is the nastiest thing your dog ate Carol? Both my females killed and ate a small possum. That was nasty seeing the rat tale hanging out.

Today I was working in a back yard that had Jack Russell shit in it, judging by the texture they fed kibble. I thought man I haven't stepped in dog shit in a while, wouldn't you know it a hour later I let my guard down and I got it all over the sole and inside arch.........man


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I flip flopped on this for a while. Last winter I took my dog to Costa Rica for two weeks for handler/ dog training. My dog got to eat an all raw diet while there and I thought it was all the difference in the world. Hefty bags of cow, all the cow he could eat, occasionally a chicken out of the hen house mixed in. just chop off the head and through it to him. But looking back at it I think a few things happened. First my dog blew its coat when it was there and I didn’t really relies because it was not shedding all over my house, his coat looked great. I don’t know if going from freezing ass to 85 and sunny contributes to a dog blowing its coat but I would think it might. Second my dog was working its ass off for two weeks straight and probably lost a few pounds of blubber. And last I was not freezing my ass off and I was having a great time drinking cheap beer, so everything looked good. At the time I thought raw had something to do with all this but I have come to relies I was just an idiot to think so. I still got a freezer full of raw stuff I through the dogs and a bag of kibble. Sometimes I open the freezer and through them something, sometimes I just give them a scoop of kibble and sometimes I look at them and think man your getting fat, and skip two or three days. I think all raw is a good thing if you have the availability but for the most part Jeff is right they are scavengers and can eat anything and be good. Some of us like to think we need to feed our dogs well because we think there athletes, but I think the amount of exercises your typical sport or cop dog gets during training is nothing compared to what it is really capable. Now those sled dogs are a different story. They need a very strict and controlled diet of blubber.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dogs are scavangers.




Actually, it is pretty hard to screw up a dog's natural defenses against serious food illnesses --- but humans do manage it.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> I flip flopped on this for a while. Last winter I took my dog to Costa Rica for two weeks for handler/ dog training. My dog got to eat an all raw diet while there and I thought it was all the difference in the world. Hefty bags of cow, all the cow he could eat, occasionally a chicken out of the hen house mixed in. just chop off the head and through it to him. But looking back at it I think a few things happened. First my dog blew its coat when it was there and I didn’t really relies because it was not shedding all over my house, his coat looked great. I don’t know if going from freezing ass to 85 and sunny contributes to a dog blowing its coat but I would think it might. Second my dog was working its ass off for two weeks straight and probably lost a few pounds of blubber. And last I was not freezing my ass off and I was having a great time drinking cheap beer, so everything looked good. At the time I thought raw had something to do with all this but I have come to relies I was just an idiot to think so. I still got a freezer full of raw stuff I through the dogs and a bag of kibble. Sometimes I open the freezer and through them something, sometimes I just give them a scoop of kibble and sometimes I look at them and think man your getting fat, and skip two or three days. I think all raw is a good thing if you have the availability but for the most part Jeff is right they are scavengers and can eat anything and be good. Some of us like to think we need to feed our dogs well because we think there athletes, but I think the amount of exercises your typical sport or cop dog gets during training is nothing compared to what it is really capable. Now those sled dogs are a different story. They need a very strict and controlled diet of blubber.


Why did you go to Costa Rica to train? or who did you train with? You went for the cheap beer!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Why did you go to Costa Rica to train? or who did you train with? You went for the cheap beer!


Short boring story that would take me an hour to type… but the cheap beer is the reason ill go back

Ill PM a real short version


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Actually, it is pretty hard to screw up a dog's natural defenses against serious food illnesses --- but humans do manage it.


There is kibble, there is raw then there is Connie. Connie and I did some PMs back and forth in the past. She scared me out of raw. #-o  

Screw it my dogs eat better than me, I had my monthly McDonalds today… # 3 with a coke.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> There is kibble, there is raw then there is Connie. Connie and I did some PMs back and forth in the past. She scared me out of raw. #-o
> 
> Screw it my dogs eat better than me, I had my monthly McDonalds today… # 3 with a coke,
> I can still taste it


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The other thing to consider is it is always girls that "see" the difference. Why anyone is so fascinated by dog shit is beyond me, but women are designed to be believers, so take some of this with a grain of salt.


Talk about believers and seeing what a person wants to. Yeah right. I don't know how many men I've seen walk out of the bathroom with piss stains on their pants and never even notice it. Your attitude (above) really isn't all that different from what you are trying to say doesn't exist or occur in raw feeding. You know better than anyone that just because you believe it to be true doesn't make it so. Sometimes people miss the obvious and others they may see something that isn't there at all - just the way it goes.

Matt if you want to feed your dog raw with kibble sometimes, then go for it. Obviously, some will question what's the point and there are legitimate reasons why it's not recommended but the rationale or need for doing so really just depends upon the circumstances and situation.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> There is kibble, there is raw then there is Connie. Connie and I did some PMs back and forth in the past. She scared me out of raw. #-o
> 
> Screw it my dogs eat better than me, I had my monthly McDonalds today… # 3 with a coke.




LOL!


Yeah, and it takes a lot for ME to say something anti-raw. :lol:


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> What is the nastiest thing your dog ate Carol? Both my females killed and ate a small possum. That was nasty seeing the rat tale hanging out.


Doubly nasty, knowing how much worms these prehistoric rats usually have. Ewwwww. Oddly enough, possum is one thing my dogs absolutely do not eat. They kill them, but never even think to eat it. I don't know why, maybe the musk stink? They eat lizards, rats, squirrels, small birds, when they can catch any... And I have fed them spoiling meat that was going green around the edges, they scarfed it down w/o any problems...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't know how many men I've seen walk out of the bathroom with piss stains on their pants and never even notice it.


ah yea wow I mean omg jee wiz. Do have percentages of men that have after trickle? Is this due to poor diet LOL?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> ... Do have percentages of men that have after trickle? Is this due to poor diet ....




Busch Beer.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't know how many men I've seen walk out of the bathroom with piss stains on their pants and never even notice it.


Thats when we forget to wipe off on the shower curtain, no big deal.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Doubly nasty, knowing how much worms these prehistoric rats usually have. Ewwwww. Oddly enough, possum is one thing my dogs absolutely do not eat. They kill them, but never even think to eat it. I don't know why, maybe the musk stink? They eat lizards, rats, squirrels, small birds, when they can catch any... And I have fed them spoiling meat that was going green around the edges, they scarfed it down w/o any problems...



I thought so too but by the time I came out I could only see a little ass and a rat like tail, it was nasty. I dewormed after that for sure. To top that off he next day Carna got a barbeque fork some how. I didn't know and I let my male out with her. They must of been playing keep away and when I came out I found it bent in half. The next day Carna had 2 spots on the bridge of her nose,raw red and swollen(2 spots a inch apart or so). I forgot about the fork and all I could think was that the possum bit her. Somebody saw her the next day and said it looked like a fork for meat I couldn't believe he said that and I of coarse was relieved and felt stupid for forgetting


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Thats when we forget to wipe off on the shower curtain, no big deal.


 
I just use the hand towel. Since my wife is constantly washing her hands I find it even funnier.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Do have percentages of men that have after trickle?


Um, what? Well, if you give it some thought and really consider what you are asking I am betting it's 100%. The difference clearly is in whether or not the amount is enough to penetrate the barrier. BTW I figured a smart ass question deserved at the very least a courtesy response of the same, at least. :-k


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

connie sutherland said:


> busch beer.


lmao


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Um, what? Well, if you give it some thought and really consider what you are asking I am betting it's 100%. The difference clearly is in whether or not the amount is enough to penetrate the barrier. BTW I figured a smart ass question deserved at the very least a courtesy response of the same, at least. :-k


Are talking men in business suits that are free balling because if your talking normal guys in underwear and jeans I'm gonna call your bluff that's too much barrier penetration....WHO'S looking anyway?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

hmmmm...nastiest thing??? 

A mouse out of the snap trap when we entered the school building we bought.....THAT was NAAASSSTTYYY....not sure how long it had been there....

Worst thing I have ever picked up.....dead antelope that was "froze" to the bank of road ditch, he had definitely been hit by something large and it took me a while to pry him up and load him...LOL 

(I won't mention that is when I found out the dogs did not like antelope all that much...the jerks....)


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Normal meal at my house:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/bumper01/EMBER-25.jpg

And...this is what they love to chew on...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/bumper01/PIC_0191.jpg
(that was my buck from a couple years ago...we take the steaks and backstrap and the dogs get the rest....several hunters each year bring me carcasses...so I end up with one large chest freezer full of venison, elk and pheasant....it is GREAT!!)

Looks a little better than a bowl of hard little crunchy things....LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lucky duck!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Um, what? Well, if you give it some thought and really consider what you are asking I am betting it's 100%. The difference clearly is in whether or not the amount is enough to penetrate the barrier. BTW I figured a smart ass question deserved at the very least a courtesy response of the same, at least. :-k


Okay....I'll ask it since we are asking smartass questions....

But, I don't look "there" usually when men walk around....kind isn't noticing that kind of like a man talking to "those" and not "us" as women???? 










(I AM KIDDING!!!!)


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## Jessica Gainer (Oct 9, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> Wondering why someone with what should be a knowledgeable and respected opinion on raw feeding would tell me to feed all raw or not at all, as opposed to doing one meal good kibble and one meal raw each day.


 
Sorry, but here is my reasoning or my "thinking"... I think that all kibble is bad for my dogs, (i know many people disagree and thats fine, that is just how i feel) So to me feeding ANY kibble with raw is defeating the purpose of the raw diet. 

Why do i love the raw diet? This is what I have noticed in our dogs and the 5 litters whelped on raw

- it's cheaper (at least when you buy in large bulk like we do)
- Harder, smaller, less smelly stools 
- Less water consumption
- Shinier, healthier skin and coats
- Cleaner teeth and fresh breath 
- Better weight control 
- Improved digestion
- More energy and stamina 
- Have you seen the junk in dog food?


I know people feel that feeding a mixture is best, same as there are people hell bent that raw is bad. All three sides can argue (not saying that anyone is arguing here tho ) forever over which way is better, but in the end, its up to you and what you choose.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jessica Porter said:


> - it's cheaper (at least when you buy in large bulk like we do)
> - Harder, smaller, less smelly stools
> - Less water consumption
> - Shinier, healthier skin and coats
> ...


I think that's an excellent summary, those are results that are clearly apparent and you are right, by and large in a raw fed dog kibble doesn't quite fit in when you consider what is necessary to achieve the results noted above. 

In a primarily kibble fed dog however, raw serves a different but equally important role as far as I am concerned. In those dogs, I presume that raw makes up about 25% give or take of the dogs diet. In such cases, I figure that some raw is better than none at all. And now back to my never ending analogies it's kinda like what my dentist said when he asked me if I flossed - his reply to my answer was "Well, sometimes or occasionally is certainly better than never".


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

I just wish raw feeding WAS cheaper because in savannah or the bahamas? it's far more expensive than say chicken soup for the dog lovers soul. I get really jealous of people that have all these hunter friends that off meat bits on them. Hopefully I'll get my green card and I'll see then if there's any places to buy meat in bulk that will make it cheaper.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jessica Porter said:


> Sorry, but here is my reasoning or my "thinking"... I think that all kibble is bad for my dogs, (i know many people disagree and thats fine, that is just how i feel) So to me feeding ANY kibble with raw is defeating the purpose of the raw diet.
> 
> Why do i love the raw diet? This is what I have noticed in our dogs and the 5 litters whelped on raw
> 
> ...


I will always agree that a raw diet is better for any dog than kibble of any kind. The reason that I mix some raw with the kibble for my dogs is this. I have 40 different dogs here at any given time (ever try to feed 40 dogs a strictly raw diet everyday?). I feed them a base of kibble and as a favor to them I mix in ground raw deer meat with the kibble, this is not ideal, but it is better than nothing I think. Some of the dogs I get in from Europe are very thin and hard to put weight on due to their crazy activity in the kennel. When I mix raw with their food they always gain weight (even though their is very little fat in raw deer meat) I can feed some dogs 7 cups of food that is 32% protien and 20 % fat and he will not gain one pound, I can feed that same dog 4 cups of the same dog food with 1 cup of raw and he will gain weight. I have no idea why that is, but I see it a lot.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think the all or nothing approach is a bit extreme. I am sure none of us in our own diets eat like that. I am sure we have varying levels of health and eating habits. Myself, I try my damndest to eat well, but that does not say I do not have pizza here and there. Is the Pizza going to ruin my health eating it once a week? Twice a week....I doubt it. And I feed Raw and scratch. In the scratch whatever me, my wife and kids do not eat goes in a bucket and is refridgerated till there is enough for a meal for every dog. Then they eat. the dogs love it.

I also would like to say, I feed Raw but I am still not convinced that kibble is evil. Just that raw has some bennies. I say this because I have seen dogs lead great healthy lives on kibble...and I have seen dogs die at 6 with cancer whom have never ate kibble in thier life. I also have seen dogs do just fine on both. 

I think jury is still out on just how good Raw is, and Just how bad Kibble is....and the other thing to consider is...Just how sensitive is the dogs body to food? It seems to me that if kibble is so horrible...then dogs that live to 16 eating nothing but pedigree have amazing bodies.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I feed raw pretty much exclusively. I use Evo red meat kibble for days I don't feed raw, maybe once a week or so. It's more of a schedule thing than anything, if I'm busy and don't have time to prep a raw meal they get kibble or I fast them that day. I don't like to mix kibble and raw the same day due to the potential issues mentioned before regarding digestion time. 

As far as seeing the difference, yes, you can see it. If you raw feed a dog from day 1 you won't notice as much, but things like clean teeth and no odor in their coats are something you can see. We put an 11 year old on raw and within 3-4 months she looked like a new dog. Many issues went away- lick sores from allergies to something in kibble, glossy coat and hardly any shedding vs dull dry coat, dandruff and clumps of hair always falling out, no odor, increased vigor even in a senior dog, change in body composition without any weight change.

Before:








After 3-4 months- that's not silver hair, thats the sun shining on her


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## Paul Fox (May 25, 2009)

Jessica Porter said:


> Sorry, but here is my reasoning or my "thinking"... I think that all kibble is bad for my dogs, (i know many people disagree and thats fine, that is just how i feel) So to me feeding ANY kibble with raw is defeating the purpose of the raw diet.
> 
> Why do i love the raw diet? This is what I have noticed in our dogs and the 5 litters whelped on raw
> 
> ...


I agree Jessica. The raw diet is cheaper, smells of nothing much unlike the stinking bags of kibble. Anything that makes any animal drink that much water for so long cannot be good and anything that stays "fresh" for months or even years must have chemical shyte in it unless it is in Balsamic or olive oil lol.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, Dan, _I_ see the difference in those pics on the bottom of page 5 (same thing I have seen in many other dogs), but how did _you_ find out? 

A girl told you, right? And helped you take those pics? :lol:








Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... The other thing to consider is it is always girls that "see" the difference.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

But I digress. 


The topic is mixing kibble and raw ...... there are reasons not to do it, even though most dogs will be fine.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> But I digress.
> 
> 
> The topic is mixing kibble and raw ...... there are reasons not to do it, even though most dogs will be fine.


Which is exactly why I don't push raw or kibble....people ask how I keep my dogs looking the way they do and when I tell them I feed raw, that opens up the communication lines and they are interested in hearing about it. =D>


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

> Quoted from the BNaturals Newsletter Email I receive...
> 
> Some people aren’t quite ready to go to home cooked or raw, but want to begin offering better quality foods with their commercial dog food. An easy start is to add fresh food to your dog’s commercial diet. Since dog food is already high in carbohydrates (for shelf life and inexpensive ingredients) I suggest only adding animal proteins and fat to commercial foods . You may feed up to 50% of the diet in fresh food without needing to add calcium. These foods can include meat (cooked or raw), eggs, plain yogurt or cottage and canned fish, such as mackerel, salmon or sardines.
> 
> You may also feed raw meaty bones, but when starting, feed these separate in one meal, away from dry dog food. It is thought that these foods (raw bones and kibble) may compete for digestion in the gastric juices in the stomach. However, you can add any of the above foods in the first paragraph with kibble.


That makes since to me about the bones and kibble competing for gastric juices. What do the more experienced opinions think?

Also how would that theory apply to ground up bones in the kibble?


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I will always agree that a raw diet is better for any dog than kibble of any kind. The reason that I mix some raw with the kibble for my dogs is this. I have 40 different dogs here at any given time (ever try to feed 40 dogs a strictly raw diet everyday?). I feed them a base of kibble and as a favor to them I mix in ground raw deer meat with the kibble, this is not ideal, but it is better than nothing I think. Some of the dogs I get in from Europe are very thin and hard to put weight on due to their crazy activity in the kennel. When I mix raw with their food they always gain weight (even though their is very little fat in raw deer meat) I can feed some dogs 7 cups of food that is 32% protien and 20 % fat and he will not gain one pound, I can feed that same dog 4 cups of the same dog food with 1 cup of raw and he will gain weight. I have no idea why that is, but I see it a lot.


Two of my pups are getting 8 cups of TOTW each, and I am having a really hard time keeping weight on them due to their activity levels. There is nothing wrong with them health wise, they just aren't keeping weight on with the kibble. 

My adult GSD is active (keeping good endurance on him is a constant challenge though, I have to work at it), weighs a fit 90 lbs with a few ribs showing, and eats about 4 cups. These pups are around 55lbs and 65lbs and could definitely stand to gain 5 or 10 lbs.

I'm thinking about mixing raw with their food to try to help with this as well. What are the experiences of others with dogs who have really high activity levels keeping weight on them?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I just see a dog that lost some weight. Dan, you were one of those guys that falls for that shit they show you in Muscle mags.

Notice how Connie jumped right in. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Notice how Connie jumped right in. LOL


Yeah, I beat you. Usually you hit the raw threads before I see them. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Megan McCallister said:


> That makes since to me about the bones and kibble competing for gastric juices. What do the more experienced opinions think?
> 
> Also how would that theory apply to ground up bones in the kibble?


Lew Olsen is a very good health/nutrition writer (IMO). I refer to her articles often.

She is saying "may compete for digestion" rather than "compete for gastric juices." As you see, she mentions keeping them separate, which is what I used to say when asked. 

In the past year, there has been at least one (three on this board) terrible case of bacterial colitis in dogs fed kibble mixed with raw on all of the boards I moderate. 

I admit that these anecdotal cases were what nudged me from recommending keeping raw and kibble in separate meals to avoiding raw/kibble diets altogether. 





Megan, kibble generally provides calcium in the form of an added supplement, such as calcium carbonate.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Paul Fox said:


> .... and anything that stays "fresh" for months or even years .....


You calling Twinkies bad? :lol:


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## Paul Fox (May 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You calling Twinkies bad? :lol:


I had to google it lol...

"The Twinkie defense is a derogatory term for a criminal defendant's claim that some unusual factor (such as allergies, coffee, nicotine, or sugar) diminished the defendant's responsibility for the alleged crime. The term arose from Herb Caen's description of the trial of Dan White, who was convicted in the fatal shootings of San Francisco mayor George Moscone and city supervisor Harvey Milk. During the trial, psychiatrist Martin Blinder testified that White had suffered from depression, causing diminished capacity; as an example of this, he mentioned that White, formerly a health food advocate, had begun eating junk food. Twinkies, specifically, were never actually mentioned in the case."

They sound quite nice though!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Paul Fox said:


> I had to google it lol...
> 
> "The Twinkie defense is a derogatory term for a criminal defendant's claim that some unusual factor (such as allergies, coffee, nicotine, or sugar) diminished the defendant's responsibility for the alleged crime. The term arose from Herb Caen's description of the trial of Dan White, who was convicted in the fatal shootings of San Francisco mayor George Moscone and city supervisor Harvey Milk. During the trial, psychiatrist Martin Blinder testified that White had suffered from depression, causing diminished capacity; as an example of this, he mentioned that White, formerly a health food advocate, had begun eating junk food. Twinkies, specifically, were never actually mentioned in the case."
> 
> They sound quite nice though!



:lol:

I forgot all those added benefits! All this and an infinite shelf life!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This site confirms that they're quite nice:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A516836

:lol: :lol:


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## Paul Fox (May 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> This site confirms that they're quite nice:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A516836
> 
> :lol: :lol:


One 43g Twinkie contains 2% of the recommended daily amount (RDA) of iron but none of the RDA for vitamins A and C and calcium. Each cake has 5g of fat (2g of which are saturated), 20mg of cholesterol, 2000mg of salt, 25g of carbohydrates (of which 14g is sugar), 1g of protein *and absolutely no fibre whatsoever.*

Outragous! =;


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, Dan, _I_ see the difference in those pics on the bottom of page 5 (same thing I have seen in many other dogs), but how did _you_ find out?
> 
> A girl told you, right? And helped you take those pics? :lol:


lol! A guy I worked with raised Irish Setters did more of the BARF thing- with the veggies and all that stuff. He told me about it, so I did a bunch of research and went for it. My wife was totally against it and to this day if she has to feed them I have to have everything packaged up separately for each dog so she doesn't have to touch it. Which makes no sense, she has no problem touching a pork chop or a chicken to cook for us. I took those pics too but it was with her camera lol. I do give some ladies credit, a couple of the good web resources were pages put together by women. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just see a dog that lost some weight. Dan, you were one of those guys that falls for that shit they show you in Muscle mags.
> 
> Notice how Connie jumped right in. LOL


Jeff, she lost weight but her coat, teeth, and so many other factors were drastically changed. Her allergies, skin and coat were horrible. All that went away after a few months on raw. I would never believe it if I didn't see it for myself. 

No, I never even read muscle mags, I only thought a certain segment of the population read those, the ones who like pics of muscle men? I was never one for lots of pills and shakes and shortcuts. Need more protein? Eat a steak. Want to get strong? Squat and deadlift, forget those foo foo machines and the Bicep Blaster of the Month workout. That's how I did it anyway...


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You calling Twinkies bad? :lol:


http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/twinkies.asp

LOL....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Paul Fox said:


> I had to google it lol...
> 
> "The Twinkie defense is a derogatory term for a criminal defendant's claim that some unusual factor (such as allergies, coffee, nicotine, or sugar) diminished the defendant's responsibility for the alleged crime. The term arose from Herb Caen's description of the trial of Dan White, who was convicted in the fatal shootings of San Francisco mayor George Moscone and city supervisor Harvey Milk. During the trial, psychiatrist Martin Blinder testified that White had suffered from depression, causing diminished capacity; as an example of this, he mentioned that White, formerly a health food advocate, had begun eating junk food. Twinkies, specifically, were never actually mentioned in the case."
> 
> They sound quite nice though!


Well now, I just can't imagine there are many twinkie eaters in SF!

That being said, presently I am feeding all the dogs a full leg quarter every morning, (the two big dogs get two) which is 15lbs a day or about 450lbs a mo. They have always been free fed so they don't gulp a bowl of food down at once but they have their feeders of kibble still and are going through about 160lbs a week but, that is largely the pups who get no chicken and are nothing but food processors. The way the adults eat kibble is to get a small mouthful and take it somewhere and lay down, spit it out, and nibble. I don't think it is going to affect the overall digestion


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/twinkies.asp
> 
> LOL....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:



I love the part about the secret to their longevity being their lack of dairy ingredients.

That would explain the spelling "creme-filled" instead of "cream-filled." :lol:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I love the part about the secret to their longevity being their lack of dairy ingredients.
> 
> That would explain the spelling "creme-filled" instead of "cream-filled." :lol:


And just what is CREME anyway....YIKES


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> And just what is CREME anyway....YIKES



I guess they take whatever is in hair "creme rinse," thicken it, and inject it into the Twinkie. :lol:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I guess they take whatever is in hair "creme rinse," thicken it, and inject it into the Twinkie. :lol:


after they put sugar in it, that is about what it tastes like....we were given Twinkies as a dessert on a search here about a week ago....traded mine for a Reeses cup miniature.....I don't do Twinkies.....


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ok people, try to stay on topic


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Ok people, try to stay on topic


 

We are.....Twinkies are Kibble and Reeses are Raw....LOL

Sorry Matt......back to topic now


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> We are.....Twinkies are Kibble and Reeses are Raw....LOL



Mmmm.... Reeses ...... =P~


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Ok people, try to stay on topic





Well, at least it stayed in the realm of food-like items. :lol:


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Man... I read all the messages and I just shake my head...

It's a friggin' dog! Not a ZAGAT Food critic.

It'll eat a log and shit splinters if it's hungry enough.

Give kibble, give raw, mix it, slice it, dice it, whatever is available, they gobble it all up, equal opportunity eaters.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> It'll eat a log and shit splinters if it's hungry enough.



Wow...I could save a ton of money feeding all the firewood I have and don't use, GEESH CONNIE...ya coulda told me that 4 yrs ago........](*,):mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

My firewood is too valuable to feed to the dogs. Thus the reason they get freebies like roadkill and hunter's scraps. Although, I might have to actually buy some tripe this month. Damn it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> Man... I read all the messages


Why?





You are mysteriously drawn to threads on raw feeding? :lol:

I recommend two peanut butter cups and a nap.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I can see it. There is so much more bullshit in these threads. What else is there to look at ? I don't see any training vids posted by anyone other than Gary lately.

This place is turning into pet central, which I guess is a normal evolution, as people want to be able to say something.

Look at the way it is going, the guy wants a Mal or Dutchie, but doesn't want to do shit but run with it. Pathetic, I bet the breeders were PMing him non stop with offers to sell their shit. HA HA

So, yeah, it is fun to read the dumb shit written by the experts that barely made it through the dumbass version of high school. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What else is there to look at ? I don't see any training vids



Post one.


P.S.

What cracks me up are the folks (not Jeff, I have to say) who are so exuberant with their disdain on the board but who are pretty darned quick with the PMs when there's a health or nutrition question they want answered.

I might not be quite so quick with the answers to them if I didn't care about the dogs more than I care about their BS owners. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I want to know what is wrong with giving my dogs hot dogs. I have been giving the pups one a day since it is to ice for me to be walking around like they do. It's ean easy treat....and I eat them my own self.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I want to know what is wrong with giving my dogs hot dogs. ... It's ean easy treat.... and I eat them my own self.



Nothing. 


I usually avoid foods with nitrites added, so the regular ones aren't around my house. But I sometimes use frozen (frozen because no nitrites to preserve them) cut-up hot dogs for marker training.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nitrite


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## Paul Fox (May 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I want to know what is wrong with giving my dogs hot dogs. I have been giving the pups one a day since it is to ice for me to be walking around like they do. It's ean easy treat....and I eat them my own self.


Snout, eyeball, testical and spinchner is good meat if you’re a dog, the salty stuff aint. I will pass on that though (unless it has onions and mustard in it innit)


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