# all this talk about PPDs...



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

All this talk about PPDs... how do you guys go about protecting your personal assets if the perp tries to serve you with a civil suit?

I recently had to take a crash course in animal law and I learned that in my state the law recently changed, if a perp tries to stick you up on your own home and your dog mauls him and he survives... He can still come after you with a civil suit.

Although I don't need a PPD, I am concerned about any accidents that could accure, obviously I don't want people going after my personal assets... Then I started thinking... how about starting a LLC or non profit, and making my dogs company assets or inventory??

go ahead and discuss...


----------



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Meng Xiong;21590
I recently had to take a crash course in animal law and I learned that in my state the law recently changed said:


> That one's easy...make sure he doesn't get back up. The dog is just to hold him there until I grab the .44, then he's mine. O


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> All this talk about PPDs... how do you guys go about protecting your personal assets if the perp tries to serve you with a civil suit?
> 
> I recently had to take a crash course in animal law and I learned that in my state the law recently changed, if a perp tries to stick you up on your own home and your dog mauls him and he survives... He can still come after you with a civil suit.
> 
> ...


Another easy solution, move 40 miles east to Idaho where we don't have bullshit laws like that.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

georgia estes said:


> Meng Xiong;21590
> I recently had to take a crash course in animal law and I learned that in my state the law recently changed said:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Knowing what the laws are regarding situations is crucial and those laws vary from state to state. In most states, if you shoot a guy and he survives he could still sue, depending on circumstances. The general rule of thumb I use is treat the dog like a loaded weapon. If you pull a gun on someone, you by God better be ready to pull the trigger. Same thing with a dog. If you send your dog on someone, you better be damn sure that was one of your only options. I know a guy who, a few years ago, had a drunken neighbor come onto his property and start some trouble. The guy is standing there with one of his mals, and the neighbor takes a swing. Before it was all over, the drunk neighbor ended up with both hands crushed and one of them still doesn't work right. It took 3 years, buckets of money, and a ton of time in court for the guy with the dog to be cleared. I have to say I'm with Georgia on this one. If someone's coming into my house like that, he won't walk out that's for sure.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

georgia estes said:


> Meng Xiong;21590
> I recently had to take a crash course in animal law and I learned that in my state the law recently changed said:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rochele Smit (Feb 3, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> georgia estes said:
> 
> 
> > G
> ...


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

It's Saturday night and the natives are restless and trigger happy. I don't think these were the responses Meng was looking for but a lot of fun anyway.:smile::smile:


----------



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I think the Castle Doctrine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine issue has already been hashed over many times. The OP brought up something interesting: using a corporation or a trust to limit liability. I am sure people who own kennels do this. They incorporate the kennel to limit their personal liability for kennel dogs. As far as tricky ways to do it for a pet, I don't know. It sounds like you'd need a slick lawyer. Anyone?


----------



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

There's a legend about a Kennedy cat that scratched someone, they wanted to sue, and it turned out the cat was in PTO (trust). At the end of the suit, they got the cat and notthing more. That's how I heard it anyway. Here's a link about it, I didn't read it: http://www.freedomradio.us/Joomla/index.php/articles-by-brent-johnson/195-pure-trust-organizations


more reading: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/retirementandwills/p43424.asp (says PTO's are a scam)


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

I would think it would no different than putting ALL of your assets a Living Trust. It's done all the time. The biggest pain about is that every time you acquire new assets you must add them to the Trust.


----------



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> georgia estes said:
> 
> 
> > G
> ...


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Here in Augusta Ga. just two nights ago, a judge shot and killed an intruder. Judge Overstreet.


----------



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Candy Eggert said:


> I would think it would no different than putting ALL of your assets a Living Trust. It's done all the time. The biggest pain about is that every time you acquire new assets you must add them to the Trust.


 
A living trust sees your heirs through probate. It doesn't do anything to limit your liability.


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

You're right. I was thinking FLP (family limited partnership). I'll do some more research to see if it applies to individuals or business assets only.


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> It's Saturday night and the natives are restless and trigger happy. I don't think these were the responses Meng was looking for but a lot of fun anyway.:smile::smile:


LoL... I already had a feeling it was going to go down this road. 


I was just thinking that at the very least, an LLC or non profit would provide some protection... of course anything else within the entity is at risk, but you'd still have the shirt on your back. 

I personally like the non profit idea since, i'm small and i'm not really in it to make a living.... I dunno, maybe some sort of non profit that educates people on dog sports or something. However, I think if you go for-profit, there could be tax advantages if you incure a loss.


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> You're right. I was thinking FLP (family limited partnership). I'll do some more research to see if it applies to individuals or business assets only.


 
*Non-Business Assets or Activities* – Notwithstanding the use of the term “Family” in FLP, these are still limited partnerships, which are fundamentally business entities and are not meant for personal use. The family residence should not, for instance, be placed into a FLP, nor should normal family expenses (utilities, clothing, educational expenses, etc.) be paid from the FLP. The use of the FLP for personal purposes could result in the entity being disregarded for tax and asset protection purposes.


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

The scenario of an intruder breaking in is on the further end of the spectrum, and probably you'd have a better case for defense. But I think its those little slip ups or accidents that can potentially clean you out.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Meng Xiong said:


> LoL... I already had a feeling it was going to go down this road.
> 
> 
> I was just thinking that at the very least, an LLC or non profit would provide some protection... of course anything else within the entity is at risk, but you'd still have the shirt on your back.
> ...


Fuk Trusts and LLC's and FLP's and all the rest of that legal BS.
Spend it all as quick as you can and don't leave anything for anybody. LOL


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> *Non-Business Assets or Activities* – Notwithstanding the use of the term “Family” in FLP, these are still limited partnerships, which are fundamentally business entities and are not meant for personal use. The family residence should not, for instance, be placed into a FLP, nor should normal family expenses (utilities, clothing, educational expenses, etc.) be paid from the FLP. The use of the FLP for personal purposes could result in the entity being disregarded for tax and asset protection purposes.


Thanks Meng. I didn't have time to read through the whole thing. It really sucks that homeowners, law abiding people, innocents have to even think about these kinds of things. 

@ Thomas....LMAO. I agree ;-) 

The ultimate reality is that everyone has the right to sue anyone at anytime over anything :-& That criminals (should I say alledged? LOL) should get some kind of financial bonaza for committing a crime goes to show how this country has gone....down the toilet. IMHO this country went to hell when lawyers were allowed to advertise in the Yellow Pages :-x

I have a friend in the LAPD K9 unit who dogged a criminal that shot his girlfriend in the face:-x The dog got the upper bicep and did nerve damage to the point the perp couldn't use his hand/arm. :-({|= He said that of course LA County will fix his arm so he use trigger finger again :-& 

I think Texas got it right in more ways than one


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Lucky for me here if someone breaks into your property or attacks you, you're allowed to bite back so to speak. None of this bullshit where stupid criminals can sue you for protecting yourself.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

One thing is to research your locality...

In some places you need to post beware of dog signs or similar to help reduce exposure to liability, in other places posting such signs means that you were aware that you had a "dangerous dog", and opens you up to more liability.

Some places explaining a dog's training is a good thing, other's it is a nail in the coffin of a civil suit, and can also open up the TD, decoy, and club/business to lawsuits....

the best advice is to always make sure you can reasonably explain you were in fear for your life, that severe bodily harm or death was imminent in your mind...even if you have to fib...

really varies a lot all over...

I have a friend that bred a dog that killed someone in an apt building, years ago...It was a different type of case, the person was innocent, the case was pretty widely known because of the cast of characters involved..lawsuits were flying....he transferred all his assets to a family member, in case the lawsuit came all the way back to the breeder of the dog...which it did not, thankfully.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Wow! We got some real tough guys on here. :roll:

I have this thing called insurance. It's pretty interesting. I pay a company, called an insurance company, for two types of insurance. One is called homeowners insurance that insures that if something happens to my house or my stuff they will replace. It also comes with liability insurance of $1,000,000. I then have, what is called a rider, on that insurance that specifically covers my liability with the dogs for another $5,000,000. 

Now when I young and broke i didn't worry about it. Most dogbite cases are done on a contingency with a lawyer. That means that the lawyer gets paid 33% of all money recovered. So if you don't have shit, the lawyer can't get shit. Therefore the lawyer won't take the case in the first place. 

Since everyone else told there whatI'mgonnado fantasy I'm going to tell mine. Here you go:

RUN

WhatI'mgonnado is Gingerbread Man it out of there as fast as I can. Then I'mgonna call the police and when (Or if..I live in LA.) they come I'mgonna let them send their dog in my house while wipe the sweat of my brow from all that running.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ever tried extracting what you're due from insurance ? Insurance is a delusion :-D.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Ever tried extracting what you're due from insurance ? Insurance is a delusion :-D.


Yes I have filed a bunch of claim and the only claim that I left feeling negative about was one with a credit card. 

Maybe insurance is different in Scotland? I've heard rumor that it's hard to get money from any Scot.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> I've heard rumor that it's hard to get money from any Scot.


Yep, pretty much everyone squeaks when they walk here :grin:.


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Since everyone else told there whatI'mgonnado fantasy I'm going to tell mine. Here you go:
> 
> RUN


I'm talking about a dog biting someone who's invading my property, this means if I'm home or not. I'm not exactly ho run works into that scenario. It's not so much a "whatI'mgonnadofantasy" versus what has already happened.

There's also the issue that not everyone here is holder of a penis, some of us are not getting attacked to have property stolen, running is not always an option if someone already grabbed onto you. The whole reason I have my dogs is for self defence, not to protect property.


----------



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

don't be worried about someone being able to sue you. I can sue you for making the comments you just did.
worry about them winning a civil suit against you
and dont buy the stories they tell you about "this guy won $10000" or whatever
it was probably an insurance payoff in liew of trial
a trial can cost an insurance company $50,000 so they often settle for $5,000-$10,000 even if they are 100% right and they know they will win. they dont care about winning or right or wrong they only care about dollars
we need the civil judicial system where if you loose you pay all the others court costs. That would stop stupid lawsuits


----------



## Chad W Reynolds (Aug 24, 2010)

To use a simple metaphor… There are sheep, wolfs, and sheep dogs in this world. The wolf can't help but kill the lamb and the sheep dog can't help but kill the wolf. Running isn’t an option for some… regardless of the cost. Others are more interested in their pretty wool coat.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

It must really suck hard to have to waste time thinking of all these scenarios of what might happen and what you think you would do if it did.

I think that rather than a society or community being more polite or whatever that saying is about carrying guns is..it seems to me it makes you just abit paranoid. Do you guys practice your quick draw ??


----------



## Chris Smith (Jul 29, 2010)

It is always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Let loose the hounds. I also agree with previous posters that the dogs give you the time to get the guns. You have an absolute right to protect yourself. When you are the only witness you frame the debate. Good Luck


----------



## Chris Smith (Jul 29, 2010)

Gerry the reality is bad people are out there and if you are not prepared you are a victim. Visualization is used by athletes and hippies alike to prepare for all sorts of things. Using it for tactical preparedness as well as running drills will keep you alive. Mock us gun toters all you want but I will always have a better chance than one who fails to prepare.It's not paranoia its preparedness

QUOTE=Gerry Grimwood;219483]It must really suck hard to have to waste time thinking of all these scenarios of what might happen and what you think you would do if it did. 
I think that rather than a society or community being more polite or whatever that saying is about carrying guns is..it seems to me it makes you just abit paranoid. Do you guys practice your quick draw ??[/QUOTE]


----------



## Steven Stroupes (Apr 3, 2009)

I know I'm jumping into this one late, but you can ALWAYS be served with a civil suit. I "could" file a civil suit against anyone on this forum for posting something that causes me "emotional distress." Filing a suit doesn't mean it has any validity.....that's for a judge/jury to decide. However, I'm with Adam on this.....dogs should be treated like guns....better make sure you are in the right before you decide to take a go at someone.


----------



## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

If someone jumps your fence to steal something, gets bit by your dog in the process but the guy leaves, and there are no witnesses, what case does he have later on?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Denise Gatlin said:


> If someone jumps your fence to steal something, gets bit by your dog in the process but the guy leaves, and there are no witnesses, what case does he have later on?


My buddy walked his 6 month old pup up HIS OWN front porch steps, and the neighbor teenage punk from next door was hanging out on my friend's stoop....the kid got scared of the pup and jumped off the porch and broke his ankle and sued...and did NOT even get bitten, just overreacted, when NO threat was even there...

He claimed the dog "tried" to bite him, my friend finally settled after the lawyer fees went over 5000.00...the kid got 5000.00,as well.... worst part of it was the guy did not even break his ankle on my friend's property, he jumped off the porch,over a fence on the side, and landed in HIS OWN yard, breaking his ankle.

could say anything really..." I got mad at my girlfriend and tossed my cell phone over the fence...when I went to get it, that vicious dog bit me...I heard a kid screaming, so when I climbed the fence and looked over the vicious dog jumped up and bit me...my football went in there...my model rocket landed in there...some thugs were gonna beat me up, so I jumped the fence...

not sure if they'd have a case they could win, but if they got a lawyer...who knows...


----------



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> My buddy walked his 6 month old pup up HIS OWN front porch steps, and the neighbor teenage punk from next door was hanging out on my friend's stoop....the kid got scared of the pup and jumped off the porch and broke his ankle and sued...and did NOT even get bitten, just overreacted, when NO threat was even there...
> 
> He claimed the dog "tried" to bite him, my friend finally settled after the lawyer fees went over 5000.00...the kid got 5000.00,as well.... worst part of it was the guy did not even break his ankle on my friend's property, he jumped off the porch,over a fence on the side, and landed in HIS OWN yard, breaking his ankle.
> 
> ...


So your buddy had to settle because he wanted to cut his losses. He didn't want to risk losing any more of his personal $$.

I could be wrong, but if i'm seeing it correctly... what if your buddy's dog was company asset. The kid sues the company, which has relatively little net worth anyway,which would give your buddy the leverage to DECIDE how much personal risk he'd want to take in defending his rights, versus being forced to settle and cut his losses.

Worst case, liquidate the "company" assets (dogs) and let the other party have whats left of the dog food and water bowls. That way... at least you'll still have your house, cars, boats, jets skis, ect...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> So your buddy had to settle because he wanted to cut his losses. He didn't want to risk losing any more of his personal $$.
> 
> I could be wrong, but if i'm seeing it correctly... what if your buddy's dog was company asset. The kid sues the company, which has relatively little net worth anyway,which would give your buddy the leverage to DECIDE how much personal risk he'd want to take in defending his rights, versus being forced to settle and cut his losses.
> 
> Worst case, liquidate the "company" assets (dogs) and let the other party have whats left of the dog food and water bowls. That way... at least you'll still have your house, cars, boats, jets skis, ect...


I agree. LLC is the way to go to protect your assets...not sure how that works with Pets in your home though...

He had to get a lawyer, and once the lawyer fees got too high for him, he settled...
His case was unique in a couple ways...no bite...and his homeowner's would not cover the case because the injury technically happened on his neighbor's property.


----------



## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

depending on how your state regulates LLCs you could still be liable.

While the dog in question may be company property if your house and property is not, and they can find cause that the dog was not "properly secured" on your personal property you could be open to liability. i know that in virginia if something owned by my LLC injures someone on my personal property i could be personally accountable...

example: I have one of my employees doing prep work at my shop...grinding meats and whatnot..he gnarls his hand in grinder...im good, all claims would go against the LLC as the injury occured on the property leased to the LLC. However if i was to have someone working at my house on a piece of machinery owned by my LLC and they injured themselves on the LLC machinery, but on my personal property I could be liable. thats why we do all production work at our shop facility and no employees ever do any work at my home. 

while LLCs do a great job of protecting business owners from getting sued into poverty over work related stuff i don't see where it would help you alot if a "company dog" laid into someone on your personal property. 

if i was seriously concerned about a dog being a legal liability i would just get a good insurance policy specifically on the dog...


----------

