# personal protection testing?



## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

Since there are some personal protection trainers here just on a purely educational note what would some of the tests be for a dog that someone wants to "convert" from sport to personal protection? I know many sport dogs dont have the temperment for personal protection but was curious once a dog is trained in bitework how the tests might vary from an adult dog never trained. 

So what would be some common things you would look for or see as a negative in a crossover dog vs a dog never trained in any bitework?

Thanks Marta


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

marta wade said:


> Since there are some personal protection trainers here just on a purely educational note what would some of the tests be for a dog that someone wants to "convert" from sport to personal protection? I know many sport dogs dont have the temperment for personal protection but was curious once a dog is trained in bitework how the tests might vary from an adult dog never trained.
> 
> So what would be some common things you would look for or see as a negative in a crossover dog vs a dog never trained in any bitework?
> 
> Thanks Marta


Good morning Marta. Since I'm up, I'll throw out a few. It doesn't matter to me what training they have, I go back to the thought that it has no training. Now, with that base line, I would test for prey interest, 100 yard defense interest and noise avoidance, then pull in to 25 yards with an attack on the handler, personal protection/attack on the handler with the dog back tied for all of this. Since it was a sport dog, I would place several sleeves on the ground to see if it was equipment fixed. Just a few thoughts.


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## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks for the insight. The fixation on equipment part makes total sense. When looking at the dogs reaction are you looking for something different then if someone is testing for sport? Do you still want to see high prey drive or does it matter as long as they have some? I know people throw around the word "serious" but for people that have not seen a "serious" dog what would you see/look for? 

I find the differences and similarites in sport and personal protection very interesting, thanks again for your response.
Marta


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I know many sport dogs dont have the temperment for personal protection 

THis is crap. Dogs are dogs, and they either have it or they do not. Trust me, if you get a dog that has it, it will be clear as a bell to you. It is when they do not have it that you have all these doubts. 

I would hope that a sport dog was focused on the sleeves. "Focus" on the man is usually taught as well.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

"Dogs are dogs" can't hardly_ anyone_ argue with that statement!

I have never really understood where the difference comes in myself. It seems to me the big difference is some people may rely on using equipment as a crutch, or back up, to increase points. 

But if you commence to trying to kick that 'sport' dogs butt you could pull back swiss cheese for a hand, exactly because "Dogs are dogs".


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I know many sport dogs dont have the temperment for personal protection
> 
> THis is crap. Dogs are dogs, and they either have it or they do not. Trust me, if you get a dog that has it, it will be clear as a bell to you. It is when they do not have it that you have all these doubts.
> 
> I would hope that a sport dog was focused on the sleeves. "Focus" on the man is usually taught as well.



My "sport dog" is taught to focus on the man. He'll get his balls grabbed or popped with the whip if he takes his eyes off the helper.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> My "sport dog" is taught to focus on the man. He'll get his balls grabbed or popped with the whip if he takes his eyes off the helper.


 
Classic example of why some dogs become handler aggressive. They have to be concerned about being attacked from both directions. 
If the dog looses focus on the helper/decoy, it's the helper/decoy job to give the dog reason to keep from looking away! JMHO!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Classic example of why some dogs become handler aggressive. They have to be concerned about being attacked from both directions.
> If the dog looses focus on the helper/decoy, it's the helper/decoy job to give the dog reason to keep from looking away! JMHO!


I don't do that to him as a handler... The helper does.

Since when would a handler carry a whip with him while doing bite work?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I don't do that to him as a handler... The helper does.
> 
> Since when would a handler carry a whip with him while doing bite work?


And not all dogs even from the same breeding reproduce the same. The point is, it's either in there or it isn't. I have never thought that you could put in a dog something that isn't genetically in there from the start. You can only work with what you have and improve on it. 

Chris here is where the handler problem comes in, because I've seen it many times. The decoy/helper is the one to test, work, or "beat up" the dog, acting as a sparing partner. They are the object of the fight. The handler issues comes in when the handler becomes to overpowering or too physical with the dog. Hence, a fight from both ends of the lead. I have also seen dogs that were in such high fight drive that then turn from the motion of the handler and bit them. I have also seen handlers try and play the role of "coach" and slip to death the dog on the bite. For some reason the pounding on the sides of the dog in a bite mode makes them bite better...RIGHT! [-X 

I hope your not the one grabbing his balls, shoot no wonder it has issues. If I were trying to do something <?> and got mine grabbed...good god I would be off-task!  I think everyone is making similar points with the PPT topic.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> And not all dogs even from the same breeding reproduce the same. The point is, it's either in there or it isn't. I have never thought that you could put in a dog something that isn't genetically in there from the start. You can only work with what you have and improve on it.
> 
> Chris here is where the handler problem comes in, because I've seen it many times. The decoy/helper is the one to test, work, or "beat up" the dog, acting as a sparing partner. They are the object of the fight. The handler issues comes in when the handler becomes to overpowering or too physical with the dog. Hence, a fight from both ends of the lead. I have also seen dogs that were in such high fight drive that then turn from the motion of the handler and bit them. I have also seen handlers try and play the role of "coach" and slip to death the dog on the bite. For some reason the pounding on the sides of the dog in a bite mode makes them bite better...RIGHT! [-X
> 
> I hope your not the one grabbing his balls, shoot no wonder it has issues. If I were trying to do something <?> and got mine grabbed...good god I would be off-task!  I think everyone is making similar points with the PPT topic.


To be clear, I DID/DO NOT grab his balls or pop him with a whip - the helper does that IF the dog turns his back or is too focused on the sleeve. This hasn't even been an issue for the past 6 months. He's become quite serious and like to fight a person juxtaposed to a sleeve.

After we get his schIII then its time to move on to real PP training. I fear I may have crossed the line already with the car jacking, home invasion and personal attacks with hidden sleeve. So far we've only done mostly arm bites with a few frontal torso bites with a suit. I generally don't touch my dog when he's fighting. 

I'm just the guy who tells him what to do and he protects me for it:mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris, my bad if I misunderstood you. I've seen to much of handlers correcting the dogs and that's what I read from your post. :wink:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris, if you're doing all this ppd training and the decoy doesn't require a hidden suit vs a sleeve, it's probably not the best dog for the job. I know a dog that if you worked him in a home invasion scenario on a hidden sleeve it would end up in a trip to the hospital for the decoy because the dog will bite wherever it decides, legs, stomach, back of thighs etc., good ppd. Plus you should be pounding the crap out of the decoy too, if you're gonna do it make it real as possible, the race to get you're gun, family screaming, see how the dog reacts The decoy won't be able to present the sleeve if you're kicking his ass too.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Chris, if you're doing all this ppd training and the decoy doesn't require a hidden suit vs a sleeve, it's probably not the best dog for the job. I know a dog that if you worked him in a home invasion scenario on a hidden sleeve it would end up in a trip to the hospital for the decoy because the dog will bite wherever it decides, legs, stomach, back of thighs etc., good ppd. Plus you should be pounding the crap out of the decoy too, if you're gonna do it make it real as possible, the race to get you're gun, family screaming, see how the dog reacts The decoy won't be able to present the sleeve if you're kicking his ass too.



Al, young dog only 19 months. Going for schH1 in Nov. Maybe schH2 if I can find the time to get to cali before Nov. The focus has been schH but we've done some civil with him to pronounce his protection work in the trial. I want schH3 for breeding purposes then maybe PP. He's doing schH3 routines now (except for tracking). 

We haven't started any real PP work. Just getting his feet wet and letting him know that it's ok to bite intruders in the house if directed. I'm a musician and travel for days at a time, there was a break in four houses away and their dog did nothing (Retreiver mix) I wanted to make certain there was a better chance for the dog to bite in the house if I were gone. 

He bites only the sleeve for now because I don't want to get into trouble during a trial. I know he will bite the arm of a man without a sleeve if necessary and that's all I want for now. Does this make sense? 

Plus, I have a female that is very anti-social and will tear you apart where ever she can. She's been on a suit during home invasions but these sessions where separate from the male's work. I have no doubts that the other two rotts would join in a biting frenzy if needed. (I have three Rotties in the house. All OB trained, two bite trained - one schH male and the female is a guard dog)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I know many sport dogs dont have the temperment for personal protection
> 
> THis is crap. Dogs are dogs, and they either have it or they do not. Trust me, if you get a dog that has it, it will be clear as a bell to you. It is when they do not have it that you have all these doubts.
> 
> I would hope that a sport dog was focused on the sleeves. "Focus" on the man is usually taught as well.


As Jeff says "dogs are dogs" either they have it or they don't". If the breeders were just to breed for service and ppd dogs, where would we be?? Puppy Mill? It's just not feasible. I do Schutzhund, my colleague uses his partner for service dog. Needs a good breeder of course.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

QUOTE Plus, I have a female that is very anti-social and will tear you apart where ever she can.UNQUOTE

Chris, does this dog stay in the house all day? And how many people has she torn apart?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> QUOTE Plus, I have a female that is very anti-social and will tear you apart where ever she can.UNQUOTE
> 
> Chris, does this dog stay in the house all day? And how many people has she torn apart?


I am almost always home and she only goes out with a muzzle. She's only bitten helpers. And a few guys at the schutzhund club when she was pup. She wouldn't leave my side and they thought it was good idea to walk her without me...mistake. Good thing they were good sports about being bit. She's not what I would consider to be wired correctly.


She gets crated if there is a guest in the house. 

here's a pic


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

A good sportdog can be less suited, or not suited at all for police or servicework, where things aren´t standardized and always the same like a SCH-trial for example, more than a few examples of that. Do you guys mean that you can see if a dog is siuited for real life just by watching it doing a standardized routine like SCH?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Erik Berg said:


> A good sportdog can be less suited, or not suited at all for police or servicework, where things aren´t standardized and always the same like a SCH-trial for example, more than a few examples of that. Do you guys mean that you can see if a dog is siuited for real life just by watching it doing a standardized routine like SCH?


I think quite a few people believe that they can tell if a dog is suitable by just watching the way it barks when the doorbell rings, that's just the impression I get anyway.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I don´t know what people believe, but some sportdogs obviously aren´t suited for policework for example, so I woulndn´t say it´s crap that some sportdogs are not good enough for service, even if they look good doing what they do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Right from the start we have dumb shit. Sorry, but this pisses me off, and I am pointing this out as I am hearing way to many people repeating this BULLSHIT.

QUOTE : I know many sport dogs dont have the temperment for personal protection

Most PPD dogs don't have a correct temperament. That is pretty much the way people need to see this. If your dog sucks ass in sport, he will probably suck ass in PP as well. As a matter of fact there are an awefull lot of people out there with suck ass dogs posing that their dogs can do bla bla bla. 

A cross eyed retard could cross train a decent SPORT dog.......like that is a real definintion of a dog somehow.

I can make it easy on you guys..... there are dogs that suck, and dogs that do not suck. Stick with this definition, as it will make your life easier. If you have doubts about a dog, then it has about 99% chance that it sucks. Dogs that do NOT suck, there is no doubt in your mind.

So remember, if you have doubts that your dog could "cross" over to the goofball world of PPD training, then it sucks, and you need to get a new one.

I look at it like this, why would you keep a hammer thats head is made from sponge ? ? ? ? THis is what I think of dogs that suck.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The focus has been schH but we've done some civil with him to pronounce his protection work in the trial.

Ask some people how well that went for them. LOL Not really a good idea.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff, I gotta tell ya, you're crude, but I do agree with you. The dog either has it or it don't. I don't believe in maybe's.

DFrost


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

It´s true that the dog has it or not, but I was thinking of sportdogs that look very good on a green field doing a standardized routine, but are much weaker when put into new situations outside their usual sportroutine. A dog that can´t cope with new situations without to much fear would probably not be a good PSD or PP-dog
How the dog reacts outside the sportsitaution isn´t easy to know by just looking at the performance in a sportcompetition, or do you think so??


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The focus has been schH but we've done some civil with him to pronounce his protection work in the trial.
> 
> Ask some people how well that went for them. LOL Not really a good idea.


Just taking the advice of the national level schH guys I train with. They all do it and say if the dog can handle it then it creates a much nicer picture on trial day. I'm new to schH but these guys have titled just under 50 dogs collectively.

Another thing to add, I'm pretty bored with schH already, if I didn't have a Rottie I'd be doing a ring sport. 
My dog was doing the full schH routine at 14mo. So I either have an exceptional dog, or I am an exceptional handler or schH is easy. I vote it's easy.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> My dog was doing the full schH routine at 14mo. So I either have an exceptional dog, or I am an exceptional handler or schH is easy. I vote it's easy.


 
Wow. Did you know there's three levels in Schutzhund? (Four if you live in a trailer park)

Laura


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> My dog was doing the full schH routine at 14mo. So I either have an exceptional dog, or I am an exceptional handler or schH is easy. I vote it's easy.


Scores?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Scores?



we didn't do any real trials. But mock scores were always in the mid to high 80s or very low 90s (on one occasion) for all phases - good enough to get a title. Wwe haven't run the routine or done any schH stuff since june. We're just getting back into schH again starting this weekend now that it's getting cooler.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Wow. Did you know there's three levels in Schutzhund? (Four if you live in a trailer park)
> 
> Laura


YES, but we officially only have a BH. Can't get a schH1 until 18mo you know...he's only 20mo now. I wanted to go up to MN to get his SchH1 in July at Mike Schreiber's club but you can't fly live animals in or out if AZ June 1 - Sept 30. The next local trial in these parts is in Nov unless I feel like treking to Cali.

The method in our group is to always train for schH3.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> we didn't do any real trials. But mock scores were always in the mid to high 80s or very low 90s (on one occasion) for all phases - good enough to get a title. Wwe haven't run the routine or done any schH stuff since june. We're just getting back into schH again starting this weekend now that it's getting cooler.


COOLER than what hell when I lived in Phoenix 90's were no problem in October even some 100's its hot there you godda get out of there no place for a big black dog.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> COOLER than what hell when I lived in Phoenix 90's were no problem in October even some 100's its hot there you godda get out of there no place for a big black dog.


The mornings are only in the upper 80s now. Cool enough that the mosquitos don't mind getting some bite work in too.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Just taking the advice of the national level schH guys I train with. They all do it and say if the dog can handle it then it creates a much nicer picture on trial day. I'm new to schH but these guys have titled just under 50 dogs collectively.
> 
> Another thing to add, I'm pretty bored with schH already, if I didn't have a Rottie I'd be doing a ring sport.
> My dog was doing the full schH routine at 14mo. So I either have an exceptional dog, or I am an exceptional handler or schH is easy. I vote it's easy.[/quote
> ...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Chris Michalek said:
> 
> 
> > Just taking the advice of the national level schH guys I train with. They all do it and say if the dog can handle it then it creates a much nicer picture on trial day. I'm new to schH but these guys have titled just under 50 dogs collectively.
> ...


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> Anyway, like I said, if I didn't have a rottie, I'd be forgetting about schH and getting into ring. for now, I'm happy my dog scrambles to bring my cell phone when it rings and glad that he's able to find a lost set of keys in a field of tall grass. Now THAT's useful stuff. I suppose I have schH training methods to thank for that.


You do realise that people have titled Rotts in ringsports? Why not try it? I doubt you will find the experience boring....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The idea of Ian's is good but you might find you've *bitten* off more than you can chew:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Wow. Did you know there's three levels in Schutzhund? (Four if you live in a trailer park)
> 
> Laura


Duh.. I'll bite, what's the forth? OB, Tracking, Protection, and beer run???! 8) =D>


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ian Forbes said:


> You do realise that people have titled Rotts in ringsports? Why not try it? I doubt you will find the experience boring....



I couldn't find much info on rotts and ring. The guys I've talked to said they've seen a few try but they never made it very far. I'm going to look into it. I'm interested enough that I've considered getting a Malinois


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I couldn't find much info on rotts and ring. The guys I've talked to said they've seen a few try but they never made it very far. I'm going to look into it. I'm interested enough that I've considered getting a Malinois


Chris, get up with my buddy, Andy Larrimore from Windywood K9. www.windywoodsk9.com. Andy may have some information on this as he breeds and trains Rotties.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Duh.. I'll bite, what's the forth? OB, Tracking, Protection, and beer run???! 8) =D>


Close enough! Actually, it's a probably-too-vague reference to a stand-up bit by Larry Miller...The Five Levels of Drinking...(six if you live in a trailer park). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6OZKdHWY58

I still think it's one of the funniest bits I've seen! :lol:


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> Gillian Schuler said:
> 
> 
> > I did answer your question. Please read the response again.
> ...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> Chris Michalek said:
> 
> 
> > Your dog is not title yet, and you train with some of the best and you are bored already, you should find another sport and don't let them waste their time with you if you are not into the sport.
> ...


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Looked into to French Ring today. Looks like there might be one club in Phoenix.


Don't switch over to Ring just yet...why waste all that talent your dog has? If he's ready for a national level SchH 3, then at least trial him at your local club trials...he'll clean up. I'm sure many of us will be interested to hear your scores.

But it sounds like you're already setting the foundation for "why title him when I know he's awesome," and if you do decide to trial him, "scores don't mean much."

Laura


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Don't switch over to Ring just yet...why waste all that talent your dog has? If he's ready for a national level SchH 3, then at least trial him at your local club trials...he'll clean up. I'm sure many of us will be interested to hear your scores.
> 
> But it sounds like you're already setting the foundation for "why title him when I know he's awesome," and if you do decide to trial him, "scores don't mean much."
> 
> Laura



Don't twist my words or assume to know what I am thinking. He's not national schH3 level. I NEVER said that. I'm just saying I'm lucky to have been invited to train with guys at that level. As far as my dog being awesome I'll give you a quote from a USA Schutzhund who worked my dog on a couple of occasions "You've got a very nice dog there. I've seen maybe five rottweilers like that."

I'm really sick of the schH attitude. As far as I can tell the schH people are no different than the show people. Although I made a blanket statement not everybody I've met in the schH world fits the bill. I've met awesome people through the sport. 

To answer your projection do I think my dog is awesome? Yeah, I do but not in the way you might think. I very much enjoy how biddable he is. I like that he's stable and loves kids. I like that I can tell him to find the blue or red ball and he responds. I like that he brings my cell phone when it rings. And what I think is most awesome about him is that he changes the perception of the breed when people meet him.

So tell us, What exactly do scores mean? What are they measuring? What satisfaction do you derive from it?


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Don't twist my words or assume to know what I am thinking. He's not national schH3 level. I NEVER said that.





Chris Michalek said:


> We train for sch3 at a national level. The club stuff will be nothing when the time comes.


You're right...I read too much into those words. I train for SchH 3 at a national level too. Of course, what I'd really like right now is a side transport! :razz: 

I really didn't mean any offense. But when you say that Schutzhund is easy and then have no way to back it up, it starts to sound like just talk and then everything you say starts to lack credibility.

You're lucky your dog brings you the cell phone when it rings...I used to have a Terv who would come get me when the phone rang because then the chase was on when I was running around trying to find the cordless. Useful when I didn't hear the phone. Dang, I miss her! She was an awesome dog too.

Laura


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Sorry for being defensive... It's just one of those things ya know?

If you met me and the dog and I lied by telling you he was titled, you probably wouldn't question it. I'm lucky that I've been able to train with the guys that I do. The other huge advantage I have over most people is I don't have a day job so I am constantly training the dog. We might do a dozen two minutes session a day. Sometime I make him fuss from the coffee pot to the computer room. All that does it pound the meaning of the exercises into his head. When we walk out to get the mail perhaps we'll go the long way around the block and we'll do motion exercises. If I bring him to Lowes, I'll make him Fuss through a "real" group of people. We've had great results with making the exercises as real world as possible.

As far a credibility goes, this is the internet and everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. What I like about this forum is we use REAL names. You can google me and get real information on my life outside of dogs that can be scary BUT it also means it best to tell the truth because there's no hiding like on other forums. So, I'm either telling the truth from my point of view or I'm completely bat shit crazy and feel the need to make up shit to boost my ego.

The truth for me is, I have a life outside of dogs and where dogs is a primary focus for many of us here it simply isn't for me at the moment. I still very much enjoy training and smile when people ask me if he bites when their children are petting him. YES. LOL


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I couldn't find much info on rotts and ring. The guys I've talked to said they've seen a few try but they never made it very far. I'm going to look into it. I'm interested enough that I've considered getting a Malinois


This should get you going.

http://users.skynet.be/hexental/belringsport.htm

If it's all about the challenge and not about titles, I see no need to get a Malinois!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

It's interesting to hear and see the "tests" some use to determine if a dog will be a PP tool. I am shocked how some can say they know K-9 behaviors and yet these same experts can't even speak to humans. The tests used can seldom be real scenarios bites, in fact, most would land "Joe Sixpack" in jail if used. PPD testing should look more at environmental soundness and less on bite style.

A sound minded dog should be able to work in many venues with limited stress. Stress in bite work is as good as an egg without salt. I think I'm making that sound right... Testing for sound/noise, footing, and distractions like joggers and bike riders are very good tools.

A dog that can bite and has the nerve will do so with good training and through the efforts of a good trainer and handler. Tests which use a whip thrashed at the dog's feet are a joke! I have never seen a thug rob anyone with a 2 liter Pepsi bottle...or a play box full of toys. These might be nice "leave its" but don't test for core content. 

When "Master Trainers" make the claims that they can tell 100% if your dog will protect are doing nothing but blowing smoke. I've seen a few dogs before, but to tell someone with 100% accuracy that the animal will never do it...erh....to tough for me to do. Out of fear and fight some dogs may have the drive to do it but then close down later. Kind of like the little old lay who lifts an 18 wheeler off a driver head!  

Test for animal basics and the rest is training and animal building. You can't train what you don't have to work with and that's MO.


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