# Defense of Handler Exercise



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

In the defense of handler exercise (FR), after the release command is given, is it better to teach a young dog to guard (down) in front of the decoy or is it best to teach him to guard from behind (between decoys legs)?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

It's totally a personal preference, based on what you like and your individual dog. For some dogs the guarding between the legs is better, they do better with the physical contact to help them "track" the decoy, it removes the direct eye contact with the decoy, if the dog has a tendency to want to bite high it keeps them low on escapes. On the down side it gives the decoy more opportunity to mess with your dog, twitching/bumping against them, keeping their legs closed so the dog has to really push to get into position, etc. 
A guard in front allows direct eye contact, which can be good or bad depending on the dog. It's easier for the dog to get into position, because they are already there. For some dogs it's a calmer position, for other's it really amps them up. There is less chance for the decoy to physically mess with your dog, but as much or more chances to mess with them mentally (threat gestures, posture, the eye contact, etc)

I like to try a variety of guarding and escort positions with my dogs, see which one seems to "click" with each of them the best, and then teach that as the default position. I do teach them a variety of other positions also though, so they have fallback ones in case they can't (or don't) get into their default one.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Thanks Kadi - guess I'll stick with the guard in front for now and if I see problems begin to develop...I'll switch him to another position for the guard. Just trying to cut down on having to re-train things - thanks for posting the pro's and con's of both.

I'm thinking I already might have to change his position of going between my legs when shaking hands with the decoy - because he's either to tall (almost 26 inches at 7 1/2 months) or I'm just to darn short legged:smile: :smile: I was thinking I would have problems teaching him to heel backwards but he's picked up on it quickly - now if I can just learn to walk a straight line.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

LOL Mac is like that also, but his initial training was to go between the legs and I just didn't want to change it after 5 or 6 months. To ingrained. What I did do is start to insist he sit. So he ducks down when he goes between, then sits so I'm not "riding" him while he stands there looking at the decoy.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Kadi- what is the intent/purpose of the dog being between the handler's legs during the greeting? I've noticed this, and wondered.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Its because decoys really like getting bitten in the ass.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Michelle Kutelis said:


> Kadi- what is the intent/purpose of the dog being between the handler's legs during the greeting? I've noticed this, and wondered.


In the upper levels in FR the decoy can leave on both the left or the right side of the handler. Many times they will leave on the handlers left, and try to get between the handler and the dog, or just go straight into the dog, to try to "take" the dog away with them. Or trigger the dog to bite to soon by bumping him, making a subtle but quick move, etc. By putting the dog between the handler's legs, you remove all of this from the decoys bag of tricks. I'll have to see if I can find it but I have a very short video clip showing exactly what I'm talking about during a defense of handler.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Couple more questions...I have read the rules several times but I am having a problem interpreting some things.....not all the questions pertain to the DOH but rather then open a new thread: (Sure would be nice to have a club in this state or even an adjoining state

For BREVET only , In the Face Attack exercise, the handler has the choice to command his dog to guard. *(Handler MUST command "Guard") He has to tell his choice to the judge at the presentation.*

I am using Dutch commands for no other reason then convenience for me... as my other two dogs were taught using Dutch commands and I usually take all three with me on outings (ie., beach, lake etc) - if I give the command down......they all down which makes my life easier So......when the command Guard is given must it be the exact word Guard (in English) or should I use the dutch command for guard or does it really matter?

- After reading the specifics of the DOH on the NARA board (Rulebook) it states that the dog must be in heel position while walking towards the decoy but does not state when it is permissable for the dog to actually go between the handlers legs. I've taught Zane to move to position upon hearing "Hello" by me - instead of turning inwards he prefers to turn outwards very quickly and takes position - anyone see a problem with his method of madness? 

- Is there a specific time where the dog is permitted to move to the position? Upon stopping? - one foot prior to decoy and handler meeting? etc., 

Getting ME usta saying his name first and then the command is another thing. My husband suggested digging out the shock collar to use on me -said I might learn quicker with a pain incentive On a positive note...Zane performed the DOH correctly 4x yesterday on leash, but with a loose leash (let go of leash at the attack) and NO leash corrections were needed . Now if he would just do as well with the food refusal:-x 

​


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Lacey, how far are you from Atlanta?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

About 7-8 hours away.......why?

Thanks Amber - got your PM, appreciate the info! There may be hope


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Its because decoys really like getting bitten in the ass.


 Or the groin


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

lace they dont want the dog between your (handlers)legs anymore in the doh. i just had to stop doin it because fo the new rules. just fyi


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: For BREVET only , In the Face Attack exercise, the handler has the choice to command his dog to guard. *(Handler MUST command "Guard") He has to tell his choice to the judge at the presentation.*

*Not sure what you are asking here. There is a choice of the recall, or to go and get your dog, ie the guard.*


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

steve gossmeyer said:


> lace they dont want the dog between your (handlers)legs anymore in the doh. i just had to stop doin it because fo the new rules. just fyi


What new rules? Has France changed some rules that NARA doesn't know about? (wouldn't be the first time) 

The dog can't walk between your legs, but that's an old rule about the dog impeding the handlers walk. But they can go between your legs when you stop, as long as they get out of there as soon as you start walking again.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

my td told me to stop bringin the dog between my legs upon meeting the decoy cause it wasnt wanted anymore. something about it being handler help


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

steve gossmeyer said:


> my td told me to stop bringin the dog between my legs upon meeting the decoy cause it wasnt wanted anymore. something about it being handler help


Well that sucks .......would be nice if they gave some kind of heads up about changes like they do in SchH. It's gonna be heck (not pretty at all) changing Zane now, as it is ingrained in his head. He does not "walk" between my legs - he moves there once I've stopped and say "Hello". Any idea when "word" will get down to NARA about this rule change? Was hoping to join a club that is forming, even if it was gonna be one heck of a drive and an overnight stay to train each week, but already becomming a bit disenchanted with FR if "word" about rules is disseminated like this:x 

Jeff - my question was actually along the lines of a language thing. Must the exact word "Guard" be used or is it acceptable to use the Dutch word for the command? or does it really matter? In SchH I know if you use German - you must use German commands throughout the trial.......just wondering if the same is true for FR.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

im pretty sure you can just say guard. but thats not100%


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

*  DEFENSE OF THE HANDLER - 30 points -  Top of page​ * See the regular rules of placement.​  ​  While the Decoy places himself at his starting point for the exercise, the Handler with his dog will go and stand at the point of departure indicated by the Deputy Judge. The dog may be placed in either sit, down or stand, according to the Handler's preference.​  ​  At the Judge's authorization, the Handler will command his dog, ''X ... Heel,'' and will walk in the direction indicated by the Deputy Judge.​  ​  The Decoy will move toward the group (Handler, dog, and Deputy Judge) without offering any provocation to the dog, and following the instructions of the Judge.​ The dog must stay at heel and the Handler, under threat of penalty, is not authorized to give any commands after the departure.​  ​  The Handler and the Decoy both will walk at an equal and natural pace. They will approach each other, shake hands, and then the Decoy will begin to speak with the Handler.​  ​  The dog must remain vigilant and may not bite.​  ​  The conversation between the Handler and Decoy shall last some 10 seconds and will be cut off at the Judge's signal. The Decoy will pass the Handler and will move away at least five paces, and the Handler will continue on his way in his original direction without changing his walk or his style of behavior, and without talking to the dog (who must accompany him within, at maximum, one meter of him).​  ​  The Decoy will rejoin (i.e., overtake) the Handler without either running or menacing the dog. As soon as he is within reach (1 meter) of the Handler, without any hurry (or excessive delay), he must, "attack" him very obviously, as though he were delivering a punch. This ''punch" will be only apparently violent, the strike must be with the hands at shoulder height, arms extended, and the Judge must hear the slap. The decoy is to avoid hurting the Handler or making him fall.​  ​  The Decoy is not allowed either to grasp hold of the Handler or to wrap his arms around him.​  ​  The dog must bite the Decoy immediately and spontaneously. The Decoy, for his part, will attempt to esquive (elude) the dog's bite and then to defend himself from the dog, vigorously but without brutality( not to flee). The moment the Handler is "attacked" by the Decoy, he will move off at least three meters from the action. He may not encourage his dog until after the dog has bitten. This applies to Brevet level only, *at all other levels, praise of the dog during the exercise is forbidden.*​ * ​ * Ten seconds after the aggression (the attack of the Decoy upon the Handler), the Judge will signal (horn beep) to indicate to the Handler that he must immediately command his dog to release. As soon as the command is given, the Decoy must "freeze" and stand as still as he can. The dog must release his bite immediately and then perform a Steady Guard of the Decoy.​  ​  At the end of five seconds from the cessation, the Judge will beep his horn again to signal to the Handler that he must now call his dog to heel. Once the dog reaches heel, the Handler is allowed to move, and the Decoy is allowed to walk away.​  ​  Any extra or irregular commands will be penalized. The dog who moves away from his Handler before, during, or after the conversation (between the Handler and the Decoy) will be penalized.​  ​  If the dog attacks, or even bites only once, before the conversation, he will lose all the points of the exercise.​  ​  If the dog attacks or bites during or after the conversation (before the aggression), he will be penalized. In either of these two cases, the Decoy will immediately defend himself and stop his action only upon the Handler's command given after the Judge's authorization.​  ​  (If the Decoy is bitten before the conversation, he will not defend himself, the exercise being terminated automatically.)​ If the dog does not release after the command of cessation ("out"), he is penalized. Extra commands of cessation are penalized as well.​


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Lacey, I wouldn't rush out to retrain your dog. There are a number of dogs in this area that do the defense like that, and nobody has mentioned any rule changes. I'd want to see something in writing before I worried about it. There is usually a lag time when rule changes come out, so people have a heads up about them and have time to train for them. 

I didn't go back and read your guard question, but in FR you have to stick to one language. If you start in Dutch, you have to stay in Dutch. 

Steve, who is your TD?


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

thats just the word on the street in the chicago area could be wrong i was just told it wasnt goin to be acceptable anymore and to keep my dog at heel


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Lacey, 

Starting from the start of the exersize, you are saying that he heels with you until you stop to talk to the decoy, then goes between your legs, then to heeling backwards????

If this is what you are talking about, I have not heard or read anywhere that this would be incorrect. 

From a practibility standpoint, I am not sure why you would do it, unless he had control problems as the decoy was walking up to shake your hand. Giving the dog something to do is a way of keeping control.

Of course, it probably looks cool, so **** it, keep it.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Thanks Kadi for your answers - Hopefully I'll be able to get in touch with the new club that is forming, after they get back from the AWMA Nationals. Maybe then I won't be such a PIA with all the questions to ya, even though you have been wonderful in answering them ;-) 

Thanks Jeff, I do like the way it looks but I also like the fact that no matter which way the decoy departs he'll be able to move into position quickly - he is actually pretty good with control (not biting) because he found that if he does it correctly he gets a bite.......when done wrong we start all over again.
I've been using a PVC pipe placed on top of a soda can on each side to assist him in learning not to creep on the face attack - as well as using the same set-up when we work positions, down for one minute and food refusal. (Got the idea off of a DVD of a seminar I got from Kadi).


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> From a practibility standpoint, I am not sure why you would do it, unless he had control problems as the decoy was walking up to shake your hand. Giving the dog something to do is a way of keeping control.


It gives the decoy fewer chances to mess with the dog as they leave from the defense. I have to find the little clip I made of one of Chaos FRII trials. Not only was the decoy walking into her as he was leaving, right as he got next to her he kind of kneed her in the side to try to get her to either bite him or go with him in an escort. With the dog between the legs, the decoy just can't do anything to mess with the dog as he leaves, since the judge isn't going to let him walk right into me, or start "accidentally" kneeing me LOL

Mac comes out as soon as I start to move, which is when the decoy is next to me and no longer in my way, so by the time he's come out from between my legs the decoy has gone past me and their chances for "games", at least in that part of the exercise LOL, are over.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I guess I am used to MR, where unless they specifically tell me I cannot move, then I have options as to what to do if the decoy tries stuff like that.

Not sure, but if I saw the decoy head off towards the dog, I would probably walk into the decoy, regardless. Just me though.:lol:

Still a good idea.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Lacey another item to use to prevent creeping is a three sided metal rod sign holder that is used to advertise garage sales, campaign signs, etc. You can stick it in the ground at a steep angle. It results in the dog having the thin rod barrier across his front and at each side. Works great and stays in place.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Thanks Pauline - have to give that a try as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I find that creeping is caused by a couple of things, one the dog doesn't understand that it has to stay, due to the changing of the positions, and the reward being given in the wrong place. Then there is trying to get the whole exersize, and not just the pieces.

I have done all three. I do not have creeping, as much as I have bouncing forward. Hard to get mad when he is so happy to do them for me, and so quick. Still looking for good balance. Most of the time he is correct, and if he is not, it is some blunder on my part.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I finally put video online of the type of tricks that make me want to teach my dog to go between my legs during the conversation. 

www.dantero.com/images/Defense_Trick.wmv


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For those of you wondering about a nice way to make this type of behavior to stop, take it from the soccer player.......step on the foot, and drive the knee through the mans knee. This should stop him from thinking of foolish shit like we just saw here.

Kadi, thanks for posting that so we could talk about ways to put the block on naughty behavior like that.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

LOL But then I would have had to stomp on my poor dog in the process, since she was between us. And she's a delicate little thing, I'd hate to hurt her 

I probably could have started to walk a little sooner and "drifted" to the right, but I didn't realize what he was doing until later when I saw the tape. I knew something was going on because I could feel Chaos bumping into me instead of coming around in front like she's been taught, but I wasn't sure just what. But we train for this exact type of stuff, so she already knew how to handle it.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Glad you got that on film - thanks for sharing it. Just goes to show me that I gotta train for any possibility and every possibility as those decoys can be devious


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I obviously know nothing of ring. What actually went on in that video? Is it the contact with the helper and the dog didn't respond?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Just learning myself Bob, no doubt Kadi can explain better. The contact by the decoy that you see in the video is not "typical" - Chaos did an outstanding job concerning control AND staying close to Kadi (rather then be baited by the decoy to either bite or leave her handler). The dog is only allowed to engage (bite) the decoy when the decoy actually "lays hands on" the handler in this exercise.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The decoy was trying to get the dog to bite early, or rattle her enough that she won't bite. He didn't try this, but he also could have tried to get her to escort off of Kadi, (go into escort) and walk off with the dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Lacey and Jeff! I enjoy watching all the different "options" in the ring sports. Just don't have anything near enough to give it a try.


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