# How important is dominance?



## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

How important a role does dominance play in bitework? People always talk about evaluating prey, nerve, and defense when looking at prospects, but you don't always hear the same emphasis on dominance.

What most will point to as "fight drive" I see as prey + dominance, and maybe a little defense. 

How effective can a submissive or neutral dog be in bitework, especially in a more practical application like PSD or PPD? 

Simon


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not qualified to answer, but my TD (Jak & Jessie's breeder) separates puppies when they are 42 days old, to prevent dominance and submission between them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is the difference between a hanger, and a pusher. This is why Sch people breed trash. They like hangers. LOL


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Simon Mellick said:


> How important a role does dominance play in bitework? People always talk about evaluating prey, nerve, and defense when looking at prospects, but you don't always hear the same emphasis on dominance.
> 
> What most will point to as "fight drive" I see as prey + dominance, and maybe a little defense.
> 
> ...


first off, i agree 100% with your definition of "fight drive". 

now on to the meat and potatoes. i think a dominant dog does better than non dominant dogs in those areas (PSD, PPD). it goes along with thresholds. for a dog working in only prey, it can need stimulation to get it going (if not trained properly). the dominant dog wants to assert his authority over all it sees given the chance. i have only seen one dog that i would say had a lot of social dominance and it was a scary SOB. i wouldn't want to work a dog like that. for many reasons. some social dominance yes, but not super high. PSD's are too often in non-bite situations to work a dog like that.

but a totally passive dog working in prey only would need to have a LOT of prey drive if it were really really submissive. then again, i have seen some very submissive dogs when they weren't working that did just fine when they were "in the mode". 

so i guess it would be nice to have some dominance, but not too much and if a dog were really submissive, it would need a lot of prey to compensate...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is the difference between a hanger, and a pusher. This is why Sch people breed trash. They like hangers. LOL


pretty n00bish answer. what's next? deep bite=prey, shallow bite=defense?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Your a n00b.

Probably not the best answer I have ever given, that honor belongs to my WoW answer to your new PC thread. I was on the phone, and thought it was amusing. Snotty pants.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

pulling and pushing is just as much a training thing as it is genetic. if not, why do you always see beginning leg dogs being dragged around by the decoy? that's what those sports like so the dogs are trained that way...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, but a dominant dog will not go along with that training, and still pushes into or generally intereferes with the decoys attempts to drive him.

Even leg dogs take advantage when the decoy is still to try and bite the decoy harder, or interfere.

I think I spelled interfere wrong.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

If you bring it back to the bone, Jeff´s reply is right 
Yes, you can train on it and yes it is partly genetic, but true dominant dogs(who has it in his genes) will push bite very young.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I certainly agree with Jeff and Selena. The "push" is there regardless of what the decoy is trying to do. Jeff, I wish you'd be more careful spelling though, I hate mispelt werds.

DFrost


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is the difference between a hanger, and a pusher. This is why Sch people breed trash. They like hangers. LOL


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Now Jeff, I'm still trying to get used to your provocative style. In the interim, let's take a long look at some facts. In some countries the only sport they play is IPO or Sch. Now the foundation of some of the strongest dogs in Police and Sport find their way back to these countries and sports. Pulling or hanging can be taught and rewarded with poor foundation training. Yes, even dominant dogs if rewarded, will learn to pull on a grip. I see it all the time in the Police world. DOGS I've have trained and donated, go through a course and come back to me with a completely different grip, they like to call it a {COUNTER}. For some reason in my area the dogs are taught to pull exclusively. I go crazy about it. An entire year of hard work building a solid bite foundation, out the window in a few weeks.

In a sport like Schutzhund where the dogs are swung a lot. They must hang on to stay on. Not to mention, you have a bite placement on the exterior arm far from the inner body. It practically lends itself to hanging and pulling. Where you see the true dominant behavior in IPO are the guards. You must also keep in mind really dominant dogs are not particularly easy to train and don't also score high for the top trainers to want. 

I will agree, I love to see or train a dominant puppy that drives in with the grip. They are not fun in a trial suit though. 

Bryan


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

pulling is preferred in some PSD circles because often times, the badguy is secreted in a place where the humans can't see or would have to expose themselves unnecessarily to see, so pulling that guy out it desirable. having a dog drive into the bite while a guy is under a car may not achieve the desired effect...

but i agree with you brian, that training has as much to do with pushing/pulling as genetics does...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Bryan Colletti said:


> I will agree, I love to see or train a dominant puppy that drives in with the grip. They are not fun in a trial suit though.


try leather & jute suit...oh no, Mike is gonna feel how it is to have good pusher on the suit. (if i get him that crazy :roll


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

What do people think about pulling on the decoy as being a sign of insecurity in the dog and trying to create distance between the decoy and himself but not willing to give up the bite. Like a conflict in the dog he wants to bite the decoy but is scared to death about what he is going to do to him... I have seen pleanty of this that people misinterprete IMO as a good SCH dog who is a "Hanger". Also I would say that most of the PSD's that do it are doing it for the same reason.. remember here in the states 99% of our PSD's are sport rejects. Now that statement should make you feel safe..


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Pretty much what i see a lot of too, although I have seen some that do the obsessive pull because of training. Basically not my favorite kind of dog.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Joel Anderson said:


> What do people think about pulling on the decoy as being a sign of insecurity in the dog and trying to create distance between the decoy and himself but not willing to give up the bite. Like a conflict in the dog he wants to bite the decoy but is scared to death about what he is going to do to him... I have seen pleanty of this that people misinterprete IMO as a good SCH dog who is a "Hanger". Also I would say that most of the PSD's that do it are doing it for the same reason.. remember here in the states 99% of our PSD's are sport rejects. Now that statement should make you feel safe..


i think i don't have my PhD in doggy psychology and even if i did, i would have to have some major couch time with the dog to be able to determine that...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, too easy, I will let that one go.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK, too easy, I will let that one go.


haha. jeff just pwned me, or did i pwn myself?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

What if a dog pulls, but torques the decoy like crazy or uses his entire body to make contact and fight? The ones that actually drag the decoy down during the escape. I've seen a few Schutzhund dogs do this (rather than just hanging along for the ride).


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Have any of you ever personally witnessed an actual apprehension on the street?
You know the police K9 dog bites bad guy, bad guy goes to jail kind?
The mechanics of it are radically different than what goes on in training I can assure you of that.
Once the chips are down the dog may have to use a variety of different tactics to accomplish the objective.
Is the guy running? Fighting the dog? Does he have a weapon? Is he wearing a heavy jacket or t-shirt and shorts?
My point is pulling can be just as effective as pushing, it all depends on what the perp is doing, a good police dog uses whatever tactic is most effective in that situation.

I mean isnt that what all this sport stuff is all about? Trying to simulate the real thing?


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

I mean isnt that what all this sport stuff is all about? Trying to simulate the real thing?[/QUOTE]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is the straight poop Drew, you can teach a strong dominant dog to yank and pull and hang all day, when his genetics would rather drive in. However, a dog that has genetics telling him to pull, yank, hang will never be comfortable driving into a bite. So by the time these dogs get to you the COP, it matters very little at that point, because you must train what you have regardless, with whatever knowledge you have acquired.

Good luck out there,
Bryan


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, that is a good point for a police dog, but in our world  "sport" we are looking at traits that we would like to see passed on. Pulling, as I see it can be a couple different things.

1, could be that the dog has worked on a sleeve, and after some good pulling, gets the reward. So training, and not much dominance.

2, could be that the dog, while working on the sleeve with the same training, is less of a dog and starts to pull frantically, as the conflict of keeping the sleeve, and getting cracked with the whip is causeing the dog problems.

3, just a weak dog that cannot handle being kept close to the decoy. This is where I see some weirdness from dominant insecure males.

Here in sport world, we like to see a dog that pushes in, wraps up the decoy and generally tries to be a pain to the decoy. In police world, and not the guys we have here, they know **** all about dogs, and when they get one like that,(dominant)I am always hearing about how the dog had to be shot. So, anymore, I know that US police, from my friends overseas, get less than desireable dogs, because they sent the good ones, and the next thing you know the dog was shot.

Here in sport world, also we have people that are breeding some really dull dogs, and we are destroying the breed. I have seen GSD people that get a Mal for the first time and think that it has out of this world drive, when the reality is the dog is fairly average at best. HOWEVER, they are out there just pumping this dogs breedings up at how great they are.......wait a minute, what was the question????? LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, so when I read this again, it said, or possibly could be construed as saying that the guys on this forum who are cops know [email protected] all.

This needs to say something along the lines of not our guys here, but other cops, or some shit like that.

I have to go out and get strawberry poptarts. I have the used toaster........got to see the flames.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK, so when I read this again, it said, or possibly could be construed as saying that the guys on this forum who are cops know [email protected] all.
> 
> This needs to say something along the lines of not our guys here, but other cops, or some shit like that.
> 
> I have to go out and get strawberry poptarts. I have the used toaster........got to see the flames.


no need to pull punches jeff. that fact of the matter is, that is generally true. most don't know anything and don't care to know anything. ignorance is bliss, as they say. 

for me, i know my dog pulls like a mofo when the fight goes to the ground. when the decoy is standing, he's 50-50. sometimes he'll wrap up and not really drive, but more or less stand his ground and shake. sometimes he'll pull. 

i do finally have a photo of decent grip of my dog though. my dog's grips don't get any better than this. he must have targeted wrong or something to get his mouth that full:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What the hell kind of suit is that????? LOL

No wonder he has a weird grip LOL

KNPV dogs are supposed to show fight on the decoy, as far as I can tell, and I do not think a full grip would be something that would promote this.

I can honestly say that from the first conversation I ever had with you, I knew that you knew something about dogs. I was pretty suprised to find someone that did not believe that "fight drive" exsisted was a K9 handler.

The LEO's we have here, in my opinion would be able to handle whatever dog came their way.

This is not something that I have seen much of in the past.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i have tossed aside the whole fight drive thing as a purely semantical argument. i agree with those that believe what one person would call "fight drive" is a combination of drives, personality traits, and training, but does not exist as a separate "drive" as per the usually accepted definition.

as far as most LEO's go, they accept what their trainer tells them and the learning stops there. they have an attitude toward the trainer of "get my dog to do what it needs to do". eventually these types will get some knowledge of how to fix their dog after 6 or 7 years. i was this way for the first couple years i was a handler. i knew nothing of ring sports, knpv, psa, asr, etc. i knew about SchH and that's it. IMO for a PSD handler to know nothing of these sports is just ignorance. 

i sought out different trainers (gregg tawney being one) and trained with them and added to my knowledge base. on my own time and on my own dime. internet research played a role in my beginning to seek out more knowledge than what i got 2 hours a week in my maintenance training. it's really a passion thing. those who do sports have that passion. maybe one out of every 7 or 8 PSD handlers have it. there is a huge difference between those who do it for fun or love and those who do it for money in most cases...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is always good to see that somebody gives a shit.

Find some funds and buy that girl a suit that at least sorta fits LOL That is so bad.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Real police dogs arent found in sleepy bedtime communities, neither are real handlers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You mean "real" as in not cartoons??? LOL

I have seen some of the worst dogs in the largest communities. Not my first time at this dance. Handlers varied, but most seemed brainwashed by the (worthless) head trainer, and were unable to really see outside the box. 

Probably why so many places no longer have serve and protect on the sides of their cars. I have sometimes thought that arrogant and mildly retarded on the side of the car might help the attitude some.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Drew Peirce said:


> Real police dogs arent found in sleepy bedtime communities, neither are real handlers.


Where did that come from?

Assuming sleepy "bedtime" means "bedroom" communities, or commuter towns/exurbia....

I know a PD TD and a couple of handlers who would laugh at that sweeping comment.

Some rural sheriff's departments would, too.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> most seemed brainwashed by the (worthless) head trainer


And the opposite. Funny how a good head trainer seems to have good handlers.....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Drew, I'm "real police" and I consider myself a real trainer. I'm really curious as to how you compiled the data to make such a statement.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<OK, so when I read this again, it said, or possibly could be construed as saying that the guys on this forum who are cops know [email protected] all.>>>

Gee Jeff, that just makes me feel all jittery inside.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> <<<OK, so when I read this again, it said, or possibly could be construed as saying that the guys on this forum who are cops know [email protected] all.>>>
> 
> Gee Jeff, that just makes me feel all jittery inside.
> 
> DFrost


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bryan Colletti said:


> I mean isnt that what all this sport stuff is all about? Trying to simulate the real thing?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is the straight poop Drew, you can teach a strong dominant dog to yank and pull and hang all day, when his genetics would rather drive in. However, a dog that has genetics telling him to pull, yank, hang will never be comfortable driving into a bite. So by the time these dogs get to you the COP, it matters very little at that point, because you must train what you have regardless, with whatever knowledge you have acquired.

Good luck out there,
Bryan[/QUOTE]

Bryan, so in your experience, all the police dogs out are purchased by the department trained? Secondly all these deparments that buy the trained dogs just accept what they get and we somehow manage. Am I understanding that correctly? I'm just curious, sounds a lot easier than the way I have to do it, you know, the old fashioned way. 

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Drew Peirce said:


> Real police dogs arent found in sleepy bedtime communities, neither are real handlers.


what the hell does this mean?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Means he thought that he wouldn't get flat busted for such silliness.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

I have seen some of the worst dogs in the largest communities. Not my first time at this dance. Handlers varied, but most seemed brainwashed by the (worthless) head trainer, and were unable to really see outside the box. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I see this as well, it's the saddest thing. All objectivity goes out the window, no questioning things, no creativity. It's also quite easy to understand why this is. The LEO culture is based on a Military relationship. That head trainer holds all the power, the power to pass or fail. With absolutely NO oversight at all. Probably the worst ethical laspe is when said head trainer is also the departments broker. So now their is a profit margin to be made as well as graduating dog handlers. Some handlers in my area are simply told to pay for a dog, then one is given to them. Their is no testing of temperament, matching of personalities, simply put, head trainer has bought dogs for the class and the handler MUST make it work, regardless of the quality of the dog. When problems arise, the head trainer can easily blame the handler. Obviuosly there is no easy to regulate or oversee this process to ensure young green handlers all that they need. In my town, one officer went through five dogs before finding one that passed through a class, this went on for months, my question to the department was, you are paying a professional? The head trainer bought and selected each of these dogs which for one reason or another were lacking in many areas, basic things too. One simply did not like car rides. I have tried to offer help or assistance over the years to help them select dogs for their classes. It's a very closed world, because many don't want the light shinning on it. I really feel horrible for new handlers. I often wish NAWPDA would audit themselves from time to time. Nothing fluffy either.

Bryan


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

I can sympathize with that kind of situation, if only from just reading it now, but up there in your neck of the liberal woods, not much that goes on suprises me.
In the real world USPCA is the governing body, each dog has to re-certify every year, and one full working shift each week is devoted to training.
The guy that brought me in and taught me everything was the head trainer/ lieutenant over one of the nations most renown K9 units, we're talking 30+ dogs here, and I think 11 USPCA national titles. Thats the kind where the best PSD dogs in the nation convene to see who is the best of the best.
But there are plenty of unsung heroes in the smaller cities that only have 4 or 5 dogs on the unit but no shortage of crime ridden ghettos to utilize them in. It's not uncommon at all to see dogs retire with over 200 felony aprehensions, you wont find that up in jerkwater usa.
I have to go fulfill some mothers day obligations but I'll check back later on, I'm no longer a cop so I'm not offended by any anti LEO sentiments.
I do find it interesting that there is that huge of a rift between sport and police though, guess my perception has been a little skewed all these years.

Happy mother's day to you and yours...........


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

So you are saying there are officers, going to work, with substandard equipment, putting their lives, the lives of their fellow officers and the safety of the public at danger. The head trainer is in cahoots with the vendor/or the same person and none of these handlers have the balls to complain? The department doesn't have after action reports, Internal Affairs and no experience outside the trainer. It's funny you would mention civilian police have a military attitude, when the military recieved their initial training on patrol dogs from civilian police. (Metro Washington DC, 1969 -1970). While I'll agree standards vary from department to department and something certainly needs to be done, I think you may have a narrow view from a department that may be worse than the norm. Certifying organizations such as NAPWDA, USPCA are at least an attempt at some sort of standardization. Of course since they are dependant on membership, they can't make them all the members angry. 

DFrost


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

I only saw your post after I hit the send button, I had to add something to that.
In the bigger high crime cities where we use the dogs on a nightly basis for violent felonies in progress, everything is all about civil liability, if it was as screwed up as he described the trial lawyers would already have wiped the coffers clean.
When our dogs remove some crackhead's left tricep the head trainer has to be able to show up in a civil suit against the city with enough empirical evidence of training, protocol and standards to sink the titanic.
Thats the only way you can justify the level of force that the dog represents, in the court's eye's it's just one level below deadly force with a firearm.
And yes, the selection process is exhaustive, and I've watched it get progressively more so every year since 911 as the good dogs got fewer and farther between, but the bottom line will always remain the bond between handler and dog, good bad or in between, I've still never met a handler that didnt love his dog like one of his own kids.

The wife is giving me the death stare so I'll catch you folks later.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

David I will comment on what my eyes have seen in 15 years in my area. Dogs I have trained and then had them go through their classes and come out different. Kahoots? No I don't believe conspiracies out there like that. I mentioned that in some cases, the head trainer is also the broker and there lays in extreme lack of ethics and an enormous conflict of interest. 

Is it still the policy of NAWPDA that a Trainer must certify a certain number of dogs to maintain his/her accreditation as a trainer? If so, wouldn't you feel this in itself may perhaps put the head trainer in a bit of a bind to keep his cert. Now, I was a bit amazed that this was the case when told of it and I felt a bit unfair for the head trainer. For it may induce a desperate situation to pass dogs to keep his/her training status.

I don't mean to ruffle your feathers David. HARD not to pass on my experiences without making a Cop defensive I suppose. I feel terrible for some of these officers, I really do. They don't know often times know how bad it is, until they go outside that huge umbrella over them. They are many subjected to discipline in one form or another for even Looking at new ideas or working with other trainers. This threat of retaliation is very similar to the Milatary obedience I was referring to.

It's just such a unique situation, kind of fascinating to look at really. If a cop can't shoot properly or drive, or other performance issues, there are plenty of safe guards within the system to ensure that this is taken care of. However, K-9 is such a honed skill and very difficult for a Lt. or Sarg. to notice problems and if you have a handler without experience to see it as well, you have the problems I was reffering to.

Obviously there is far more to this K-9 thing that just this, I realize that department heads often don't allow for more training time, or release funding until just before a training class, thus the handler has zero time to select a proper dog. Handlers will not be paid enough for the dedication it takes to make a great team, that much is evident

I apologize for you being offended. I know their are dedicated trainers out there David.

Enjoy your day
Bryan


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

[

i do finally have a photo of decent grip of my dog though. my dog's grips don't get any better than this. he must have targeted wrong or something to get his mouth that full:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Tim do you only exclusively employ young women as decoys? Do you find it distracting?
Bryan


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

David I must also mention that in my particular area, we have rivalry certifying agencies and the divide is intense and spills over into everything. It's downright nasty at times. Which probably lends itself even more to the constant territorial BS. There is much worry about handlers jumping ship to the other side. This sort of thing IMO has been very unproductive for the average handlers.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bryan, i'm not offended, I'm just pointing out that not all programs are like that. I can't speak for NAPWDA, but I do believe they have a requirement for a certain number of dogs certified before you can be an instructor. I'm also cognizant there can be a rift between certifying agencies. None of that however, answers the question of why an officer would work an inferior piece of equipment without making his/her concerns known. That just wouldn't exist in the programs I'm familiar with. I'd be curious as to what exactly do the dogs NOT do in these programs you have experience with. 

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Bryan Colletti said:


> [
> 
> i do finally have a photo of decent grip of my dog though. my dog's grips don't get any better than this. he must have targeted wrong or something to get his mouth that full:
> 
> ...


it was a trial. i did not have the power to bring my own 6-6, 265lb male decoy. a more fitting question would be, why do you have such a problem with female decoys? do you NOT find them distracting?


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> it was a trial. i did not have the power to bring my own 6-6, 265lb male decoy. a more fitting question would be, why do you have such a problem with female decoys? do you NOT find them distracting?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Who the hell mentioned anything about a problem with it?

Bryan


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For a while it looked like Colorado was gonna be the all time female decoy champion of the planet.

Then, sadly, one found boys, and the other grew a ego tumor that could not be removed. Sadly, they both are as good as done as decoys. My old club chews them up and spits them out, and never allows them to grow past a certain stage.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

This chick gets my vote..........


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

is that from the desert dog trial?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What sort of savage testing device is in her hand???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What sort of savage testing device is in her hand???


I've seen a similar "tool", made out of heavy leather, that was used to punch the crap out of a dog's nose when it wouldn't out. :evil: Don't know if that'sd the same thing.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

It looks like it would be used to keep the dog from biting her hand, I can't see her other hand to see if she has a matching pair though. Just guessing though, but maybe for her protection, to keep the dog from transferring down. Is that a trial or training?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i believe that was the desert dog police k9 trial that gregg and i competed in. yes, that is hand guard...


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