# LGD starting



## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Anyone here have/use LGD's? I am looking for ideas for my 1 year old Sarplaninac bitch. We are running into some new problems and looking for some new ideas.
Thanks,
Kerry
NEPA


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

perhaps if you detailed the "problems" you're having...???


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Beat her with a sheep.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

ann schnerre said:


> perhaps if you detailed the "problems" you're having...???



Well, we have a killing problem. :evil:
In my mind, the most remarkable trait of the LGD is a stable, even temperament with a lower prey drive than the average dog right? This is why they are able to perform unsupervised flock guarding work over say a GSD that may be used for tending/herding in addition to guarding while supervised.
Obviously there is adolescence to account for, boredom, playfulness, rebellion...the whole gammit when a pup chases stock. This I understand and respect. However, what do you do when the pup begins stalking behavior and follows through with a premeditated kill? I am wondering if this individual has more prey drive than she should...this recent event has caused me to think it is definately not a boredom or puppy thing.
I do not expect a one year old to instantly "be a working LGD" right off, but I DO expect her to respect the young animals and not to draw blood. 
What is the best approach to correcting the behavior? I can tell you what I have tried already I guess...
or I can direct those interested to her blog posts.
Thanks for reading.
Kerry


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Kerry Foose said:


> Well, we have a killing problem. :evil:
> In my mind, the most remarkable trait of the LGD is a stable, even temperament with a lower prey drive than the average dog right? This is why they are able to perform unsupervised flock guarding work over say a GSD that may be used for tending/herding in addition to guarding while supervised.
> Obviously there is adolescence to account for, boredom, playfulness, rebellion...the whole gammit when a pup chases stock. This I understand and respect. However, what do you do when the pup begins stalking behavior and follows through with a premeditated kill? I am wondering if this individual has more prey drive than she should...this recent event has caused me to think it is definately not a boredom or puppy thing.
> I do not expect a one year old to instantly "be a working LGD" right off, but I DO expect her to respect the young animals and not to draw blood.
> ...


 
Hey Kerry,

I only know a little bit about competetive sheepdogs: never had my own sheep so my knowledge of LGD's is pretty limited, but I do know there are folks in the sheepdog community who know a bunch about these things.

I would look for them here: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php or here http://www.sheepdog.com/

Probably you stand less chance of a dumb reply on the list. If this doesn't work for you let me know and I'll help you track down some answers.

Good luck and if my memory seves it's not impossible for a young dog who has killed sheep to turn it around and become a reliable guard dog.


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## Guest (May 31, 2010)

sorry to hear about the sheep and your dog. Its Frustrating, I'm sure. There is a predatory sequence in domesticated dogs as in other animals that includes several well defined and documented steps from stalking to sometimes target acquisition to chase etc. culminating in a finishing sequence meaning 1)to kill the prey 2) to dissect the prey and 3) to eat the prey.

Each of these steps in the sequence is an individual expression. Every dog will have some steps in the chain whether it is just stalking or stalking and chasing all the way to ingestion. This is genetic hardwiring and a dog generally only expresses behavior up to its hardwired programming. There may be exceptions but it may also just be that the dog was never pushed to the level it finally reaches until it does, know what I mean? 

If your dog is already exhibiting a finishing sequence then this is just his alleles expressing themselves as more "dog" than other domesticated dogs. That's just how he is. Pups in any given litter will have more dog in them than others etc. While it is possible to control these predatory expressions, whether predation or drift, in your LGD, it will be futile to do it without extreme force and would probably be a LOT of work resulting in an ultimately unreliable and possibly traumatized and broken dog. It might be a better, more economical, less stressful and more effective to get a new dog for this work. 

JMO.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Kerry Foose said:


> Well, we have a killing problem. :evil:
> In my mind, the most remarkable trait of the LGD is a stable, even temperament with a lower prey drive than the average dog right? This is why they are able to perform unsupervised flock guarding work over say a GSD that may be used for tending/herding in addition to guarding while supervised.
> Obviously there is adolescence to account for, boredom, playfulness, rebellion...the whole gammit when a pup chases stock. This I understand and respect. However, what do you do when the pup begins stalking behavior and follows through with a premeditated kill? I am wondering if this individual has more prey drive than she should...this recent event has caused me to think it is definately not a boredom or puppy thing.
> I do not expect a one year old to instantly "be a working LGD" right off, but I DO expect her to respect the young animals and not to draw blood.
> ...


I would say she's a dud and for you to replace her another who has stronger instinct for the job of LSG. While it's true that some roughing of the stock may occur as the pup grows I would say the killing of stock is a definite no, no. And I would not trust such a dog with stock even if you were ever able to curtail the behavior of killing. The instinct to protect and guard should be strong even in a pup to not harm the stock. 
Question is can you really trust a dog who has killed several times before...I wouldn't. A LSG is suppose to take care of his charges not do them harm. So if the dog is exhibiting behaviors counter to that can he truly be considered an LSG? In my world no and would get a bullet...but that's just me.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Vin Chiu said:


> sorry to hear about the sheep and your dog. Its Frustrating, I'm sure. There is a predatory sequence in domesticated dogs as in other animals that includes several well defined and documented steps from stalking to sometimes target acquisition to chase etc. culminating in a finishing sequence meaning 1)to kill the prey 2) to dissect the prey and 3) to eat the prey.
> 
> Each of these steps in the sequence is an individual expression. Every dog will have some steps in the chain whether it is just stalking or stalking and chasing all the way to ingestion. This is genetic hardwiring and a dog generally only expresses behavior up to its hardwired programming. There may be exceptions but it may also just be that the dog was never pushed to the level it finally reaches until it does, know what I mean?
> 
> ...


Wow Vin, you smoked my reply! Do you have sheep and/or guard dogs? I have to say I'm inclined to agree with your bottom line, but without a phd and/or lgd experience, i didn'think it was my place to give an opinion.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Lynda Myers said:


> ISo if the dog is exhibiting behaviors counter to that can he truly be considered an LSG? In my world no and would get a bullet...but that's just me.


No need to beat around the bush Linda, just come right out and say it! :wink:


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Okay it is coming back to me: about nine years ago (here's the rub cuz I often can't remember what I was doing nine minutes ago) I was out in the field with a shepherd who lives near here. I'm almost positive that he told me that puppies and young guard dogs are known to kill lambs on occasion, especially during lambing when there's afterbirths about. And I'm almost positive he said that when dealt with properly the incident is not an indicator of what the adult dog will do.

Like I said though Kerry, you should get some good input from one of the many knowledgable folks out there. These are people who care about their livestock and wouldn't suffer a real sheepkiller but who wouldn't encourage you to waste a good dog either.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks for all the input gang. Let me clarify one thing before we put a bullet in her head lol.
She is NOT killing sheep or lambs. I had removed her from the pasture during lambing and kidding due to her age and the combativeness of the ewes and does. What happened was when I re-introduced her into a separate paddock (adjoining the flock) She stalked and killed chickens that I had pastured next to there. 
The problem that I had with it was the fact that she premeditated this attack by going through an awful lot to get into that enclosure to get them.
So I have gathered many opinions, thoughts and theories. And my question boils down to this....does her breeding indicate that her prey drive is entirely too high for her usefulness as a LGD or is there hope that she will outgrow this stage?
Whoever said beat her with a sheep...touche' I DID beat her with the dead hen, lol!


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Margaret Wheeler said:


> No need to beat around the bush Linda, just come right out and say it! :wink:


Yeah I know but am really working on not being so direct.. is a curse though because I see things as either black or white with no gray!:-k:-k


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The only LGD I know is a Great Pyr that I watched from a pup. Great with sheep and lambs but was/is always to rough with ducks.
He's just playing with them but way to rough. 
I have to agree that if the dog is actually stalking and killing then it is probably the wrong dog for the job.
A friend of mine tried to break her JRT from killing chickens by beating it. Didn't work! Tried tying the chicken around the dog's neck till it rotted off (old school). 
After three days the dog was strutting around like it was wearing some fantastic perfume. Didn't work!
Another old school trick she tried was to put the dog and dead chicken in a barrel and roll it down a hill. Dog came out of the barrel, picked up the dead chicken and staggered off.](*,)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You have'nt raised her as an LGD, it sounds like. You put them with the flock they are supposed to guard as baby puppies regardless of whether its poultry or hoofed stock. I don't know of any one who has waited to put them with the flocks until they mature. You are doing a certain amount of imprinting during the baby puppy stage. My friends don't take them away from ewes with lambs either. Matter of fact the ewes will help teach them not to think of lambs as playmates or siblings during the play stage they go through. I've only observed Pyrs from a young 8 week old puppy growing to adult hood and they are with the flocks 24/7 almost from weaned ages and never separated. You have rare breed that I'm not familiar with but I know from your website and blog postings you babysat them and such in the past. Perhaps the breeder she came from can offer suggestions. BTW, you can leave GSDs with flocks unsupervised. Their usual attitude [mine anyway] is to guard and protect ducklings, lambs etc. There's no prey. They treat them like their puppies. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> The only LGD I know is a Great Pyr that I watched from a pup. Great with sheep and lambs but was/is always to rough with ducks.
> He's just playing with them but way to rough.
> I have to agree that if the dog is actually stalking and killing then it is probably the wrong dog for the job.


 
This was during that puppy play stage. He improved with age and when she put a couple of sheep in with the ducks.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This was during that puppy play stage. He improved with age and when she put a couple of sheep in with the ducks.
> 
> T


Has to be pretty receint then cause I saw Thunderfoot escorting a duck around the pen by a wing not to very long ago.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, thought I'd call Sandra and ask her where Thunderfoot is in his development. He's now 18 months old. She said he's had stages with lambs and ducks where he's playing with them but as he has gotten older its drastically decreased. Like my dogs, he doesn't understand the violent duck mating process and that triggered him early on in corrective mode. He's with the ewes and lambs during the day and the duck flock at night. Usually, she puts the ducks in their pens where he doesn't have access. However, he has been alone with them unpenned at night and all were fine. He does not have a kill button at all. The neighbors guineas and chickens get loose in one pasture and he occasionally holds one and licks it. He did go through a stage with the ducks where in the evening when he wants to gather them into a certain place, and they wouldn't cooperate, he would grab one and carry it. We've watched him before when he thinks there's danger he gathers and puts the flock in a certain place, holds them there with him at the opening at guard. This is similar to what my corgi and GSDs would do with the lambs and ducks I've kept here. The older he gets, the less he is given to romp and play moments. She said its been awhile since he's had a play episode. He doesn't hurt them and certainly doesn't have a kill button. He had one lamb in particular last year he would grab and she was gonna correct him with a shaker bottle but he didn't grab it and it hasn't been a problem. She figures he read her intent. She thinks if you can correct the play while they are in the act it does have value. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol: I had to laugh at his "Not understanding the violent duck maiting process". I guess that could trigger the soundest of dog. :lol:
I agree that he's never had a kill instinct.....:-k maybe for the neighbors Rottie but I would suspect that he would disengage as soon as the Rottie cleard the area.. ;-)
Correcting the play during or as it builds is for sure the way to go.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

I had a LGD who did the same thing as a young dog.He killed chickens. He went on to be a super dog with the sheep and goats and left the chickens alone. I think it was a developmental thing. He was a Maremma. He was completely trustwothy with livestock and saved many lambs during lambing outside in bad weather by cleaning them off at birth.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You have'nt raised her as an LGD, it sounds like. You put them with the flock they are supposed to guard as baby puppies regardless of whether its poultry or hoofed stock. I don't know of any one who has waited to put them with the flocks until they mature. You are doing a certain amount of imprinting during the baby puppy stage. My friends don't take them away from ewes with lambs either. Matter of fact the ewes will help teach them not to think of lambs as playmates or siblings during the play stage they go through. I've only observed Pyrs from a young 8 week old puppy growing to adult hood and they are with the flocks 24/7 almost from weaned ages and never separated. You have rare breed that I'm not familiar with but I know from your website and blog postings you babysat them and such in the past. Perhaps the breeder she came from can offer suggestions. BTW, you can leave GSDs with flocks unsupervised. Their usual attitude [mine anyway] is to guard and protect ducklings, lambs etc. There's no prey. They treat them like their puppies.
> 
> Terrasita


http://funnyfarmnaturally.webs.com/apps/blog/

(for those of you interested in Alkas blog)

Actually if you have read the blog posts, we tried our best to raise her as a LGD from 6 weeks on...she lived in the barn, lived with the goats, lived with the chickens, lived with wether lambs, and had access to the whole flock in a safely fenced area at various times of the year last year. My sheep when with small lambs are in electric fence, so keeping her with them was not an option yet. I have been advised not to let her be with the flock with small lambs and kids yet because she does not have an adult to model after. Others have suggested I let her grow up and out of this stage before I expect her to be reliable. She certainly is familiar with all the stock here. 
Oh, and It has also been suggested that I tie a chicken around her neck old style too, haha...but we passed on that suggestion:-&
The breeder is from the old country and has not seen sheep since he was a kid and neither have his dogs, this is why he gave her to us to raise and to see if she has the instinct. What I am seeing is no.
But I am no expert on the breed as I have only known this breed and worked with them for less than two years. And those dogs have not had any contact with stock either. Unfortunately the breeder is no expert either.
But as always, I am open to hearing from others with experiences to share so we can develop a strategy for this dog one way or another.
So thanks all, and keep the ideas coming :smile:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kerry Foose said:


> http://funnyfarmnaturally.webs.com/apps/blog/
> 
> (for those of you interested in Alkas blog)
> 
> ...


 
Nope, haven't followed the blogs. I just remember when you got her when discussing Jack. What's various times? When was the last time she lived with chickens? The dogs I know of didn't need adult modeling. Seems like with LGDs its 24/7 thing to imprint and mold the behavior. I'm not so sure how it works if any of it is part-time especially while the dog is developing. You can only hope like Eric suggests, its a phase and she'll be poultry reliable later on. I think there can be different protocols for different LGD breeds and in this country the Pyrs seem to have the most reliable track records. I didn't realize that you're a few generations from one actually working as a LGD so you are missing the selection for the work and she's an experiment. Have you been to the LGD boards or even contacted folks who has her breed and use them in the LGD function?

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I forgot to ask, does she show guard behavior with the sheep or goats. If its there, seems like you ought to be able to transfer it. The breed is described as having "moderate prey drive" whatever that means. Also, take her out with you several times a day to do chicken chores. Appeal to her sense of a job and pack and that the chickens are yours.

T


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I forgot to ask, does she show guard behavior with the sheep or goats. If its there, seems like you ought to be able to transfer it. The breed is described as having "moderate prey drive" whatever that means. Also, take her out with you several times a day to do chicken chores. Appeal to her sense of a job and pack and that the chickens are yours.
> 
> T


yup, that is exactly what we are doing presently. The funny thing is that when I tend to the rabbits she cowers and barks with her tail between her legs...terrified of the bunnies, lol. Go figure.
In the meantime I have her with a ram and a billy in a small holding pen about 1/4 acre in the shade, that should be a good spot for now I am thinking. I have been in contact with many others and I am gathering information and experiences from everyone so that we can see what is the best plan.
One thing for sure about this breed is that they are truly independent thinkers and don't really need or want you int he picture necessarily. If it is on her terms she is all good with that, but if you challenge this breed they seem to thumb their paw at you and do what they want anyway first chance they get. This is why I have not gone to an E-collar just yet. I want to be sure it will be effective when she so much as stares at any stock - period and be able to do it supervised but far enough so that she is not making the association with me but rather with her own predatory actions. What are your thoughts on that?


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I forgot to ask, does she show guard behavior with the sheep or goats. If its there, seems like you ought to be able to transfer it. The breed is described as having "moderate prey drive" whatever that means. Also, take her out with you several times a day to do chicken chores. Appeal to her sense of a job and pack and that the chickens are yours.
> 
> T


I would not say that she guards the stock as much as she guards her turf. Her pasture is her pasture and has run off dogs and people on bikes away from the fence line. One night however, she had us up viciously snarling at the fence line and actually biting and pulling on it. The next morning we found wire down across the street and feces in the area that she was alerting at. So clearly she did her job that night. No lambs or ewes were missing or hurt.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kerry, I don't do e-collars and don't generally like them with stock. I will concede that they can be effective to teaching a dog what NOT to do. You'd have to catch him in the act and then who knows what association he makes. A truly hard dog feels pain and he bites harder or something so ya gott be careful with that. However, a true sharplaninac can kill coyotes and wolves and were bred with a certain degree of pain tolerance and hardness. I've read how independent they are and not that people bonded but I'm more inclined to appeal to the instinctual guard and they as part of the pack and territory. She could also be staging. I'd just take her around the stock she is to protect, sit with her t my feet with loose chickens and read a book or knit or something. I do that with my bouv with the ducks. Also, pay attention to whether its hormonal kills. Went through that with the bouv as well. I don't know what to think about the fear posture with the bunnies. However, dogs are all over the place mentally until they cross over about 2 1/2.

T


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Kerry, I don't do e-collars and don't generally like them with stock. I will concede that they can be effective to teaching a dog what NOT to do. You'd have to catch him in the act and then who knows what association he makes. A truly hard dog feels pain and he bites harder or something so ya gott be careful with that. However, a true sharplaninac can kill coyotes and wolves and were bred with a certain degree of pain tolerance and hardness. I've read how independent they are and not that people bonded but I'm more inclined to appeal to the instinctual guard and they as part of the pack and territory. She could also be staging. I'd just take her around the stock she is to protect, sit with her t my feet with loose chickens and read a book or knit or something. I do that with my bouv with the ducks. Also, pay attention to whether its hormonal kills. Went through that with the bouv as well. I don't know what to think about the fear posture with the bunnies. However, dogs are all over the place mentally until they cross over about 2 1/2.
> 
> T


I agree on the e-collar myself and am still on the proverbial fence about it. I can see the theory in that if she is "bitten" when she goes into hunt mode, it could help to shape a negative association with the stalking. One of the reasons I have not used it is because you have to be dead on right on the timing if you hope to accomplish the most effective response. I am afraid that my timing would not be perfect and I do not want to do any damage. Worse comes to worse and she is merely a pet who does not ever live in the pasture where the hens are...but I am keeping the golden two year old marker in mind and remaining hopeful that she will outgrow some of these shenanigans [-o<
I had not thought about the hormonal aspect..that is worth some consideration in this recent event as well.When she got chickens back int he fall it was strictly out of fun and the thrill of the chase as a 5 month old. I watched her and it was when they would flap and run that she chased. We corrected that and put the birds up so she could not chase anymore. She never looked at them again until now. It is definitely a different look and follow through.
My approach to resolving this is a combination of things so far! I do not have an isolation kennel to keep her in and I really do not want to do that anyway, I feel isolating her would only make it worse or delay the learning process. So I am rotating her around to different areas by chain and holding pens to keep her exposed and have contact, but limited. We do spend as much one on one time with her so that she continues to have a people bond and she is very fun to be around, quite mindful when she has to be...but equally naughty when she can be lol. I will have to include a story telling session while in the hen yard haha... Hay I'll try anything..well, maybe not tying a chicken around her neck tho lol.
Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

eric squires said:


> I had a LGD who did the same thing as a young dog.He killed chickens. He went on to be a super dog with the sheep and goats and left the chickens alone. I think it was a developmental thing. He was a Maremma. He was completely trustwothy with livestock and saved many lambs during lambing outside in bad weather by cleaning them off at birth.


Thanks for the reassurance in my decision to keep going and trying to get over this adolescent hump hopefully! It helps to hear I am not the only one having this problem.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What's with the chain. Why isn't she living with stock. Chained and given opportunities to see stock isn't the same. When I asked about guard behavior, I meant living with [free access and within a flock as a member] and guarding livestock. I would have thought she learned correct behavior with lambs and kids as a young puppy. She needs to form a bond/pack with the livestock she is supposed to guard. Its not intimidation by a ram or such. You never said what "various times" means. Has she ever lived with [free access] 24/7 with stock during this first year or were there intermittent periods and she was otherwise penned or chained elsewhere without access. It makes a difference. Keeping her from them won't make any difference. Chains build frustration. Frustration buids drive. With drive you get bite. If you are chaining and penning, do it outside of seeing livestock. Chains don't teach or build responsibility. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, I'm not sure who else you are getting advice from but it appears from your blog that she has always had a fascination with chickens and there was some sort of hiatus from livestock at 6 months and you recently tried to reintroduce her. So has she not lived freely [without drags and chains] amongst livestock guarding them for 6 months. You said she had guard instinct. Please describe what you mean by that. I mean instinct to guard stock and behaviors displayed while living freely amongs stock. Maybe other LGD folks attach dogs to tires and such so they can't run but I haven't heard or seen any one around here refer to those techniques. If the dog has a chase mentality, seems to me that puts him outside of the LGD role. Putting it on a drag just decreases the ability to move, it does nothing for the mental aspect of prey expression. 

Sharplaninacs seem to be bred mostly for the show ring at this point. Information regarding them in the LGD function and how they develop is lacking. 


Terrasita


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What's with the chain. Why isn't she living with stock. Chained and given opportunities to see stock isn't the same. When I asked about guard behavior, I meant living with [free access and within a flock as a member] and guarding livestock. I would have thought she learned correct behavior with lambs and kids as a young puppy. She needs to form a bond/pack with the livestock she is supposed to guard. Its not intimidation by a ram or such. You never said what "various times" means. Has she ever lived with [free access] 24/7 with stock during this first year or were there intermittent periods and she was otherwise penned or chained elsewhere without access. It makes a difference. Keeping her from them won't make any difference. Chains build frustration. Frustration buids drive. With drive you get bite. If you are chaining and penning, do it outside of seeing livestock. Chains don't teach or build responsibility.
> 
> T


The chaining is only in the past two weeks since the chicken killing. previously she lived (co-mingled) with the horses and the goats all winter. I cannot trust her out there and I will NOT lock fifty chickens up on the account of one dog. Sorry I need that pasture for more important things that actually eat it. That I cannot compromise on.
At various times means:
In the fall she lived in a 7 acre area with multiple paddocks all open with whether lambs, goats with older kids, three horses and laying chickens. In the summer last year she was in the barn and it had opened up to the barnyard where she lived with chickens and goats freely. It was in the fall where she played with young birds (pullets) and was chasing them and killed 3. I penned the chickens and kept her out in the field until late March when I kidded and lambed. In which case she was penned in a small 50x50 pen that she could see all of the pasture including the horses, chickens and the goats with their infant kids. 
Various times with the sheep means that they are kept in electric fence on numerous 5 acre pastures that surround my farm...so no she does NOT live with the sheep full time. When they are rotated through my place( that has stock fence around it), she has access to them as a flock. Otherwise, she can see them from her side of the fence year round. It is not practical to try to teach her about electric fence, and to expect her to guard them at this age. EVERYONE I spoke to about LGD's agrees that no one cannot expect a puppy to protect a flock of sheep especially under these circumstances at her age and by herself. In a perfect world, I could afford a couple thousand dollar experienced adult LGD to pair with her, but since I can't afford that, it is what it is and I am doing the best I can with what we have to work with. Right now, that pen is the best I can do and I know she can be trusted there. And as far as a chain goes, it does teach limitations and patience and frankly, that is where I am at with her. I think you are right if a dog is constantly tethered to a chain and frustrated and over time it will cause a fight response. This is not the case with her. I am running out of places for her to be safely. So if she is on a chain and moved around for a week or two...so be it.  She goes in the ram pen now because I recently sorted them out and repaired it so it (the fence) can handle her too. If she wants to assert her new behaviour on them, then at least they can take care of themselves and if she were to kill one of them, well - she is done. I will not continue to try with her because it would be evident that she is not suited for LGD work and I am not going to loose stock over an experiment. So she would then be a pet that lives in a kennel. Period. But I don't think we are there yet...at least I hope not.
Does that paint a clearer picture of what we have going?


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2010)

If she's killing chickens then she may be fine with the sheep. Size can matter, how prey like they act can matter, etc. Good luck! I hope she works out for you.

And yes, I am in a degree program for this stuff.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

For me, she'd have to live with stock period and you have to keep rotating the area so she forms a territorial connection. If you aren't geographically set up to develop her, it could affect the end product. The pups I've seen, by her age show a pack relationship to their stock. In the beginning they sorta treat them like siblings and they do have a few goofball moments. I've read about the pulling on the goat leg and such. When I watch an LGD, I know when he is guarding or when he thinks a threat is near. They take steps to put the flock where they can effectively guard them. I know she alerts to things she hears but is there anything about her behavior that demonstrates that she thinks she is supposed to be taking care of the flock---not just mutual co-existence without doing harm. Sicne you said if you can't break her for chickens, she would be a pet, it make me think she wasn't much use for the sheep or goats. For example, Thunderfoot lives with ewes/lambs. You can tell how the relationship changes depending upon whether his guard switch is on or off. Guard switch off: ewes dictate to him what his boundaries are regarding the lambs. Guard switch on: he dictates to the ewes that they should move off him and go where he tells them and they can't leave until he tells them. The stock reads which switch is on and acts accordingly. Its a relationship between the two, not just mutual co-existence. 

Terrasita


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> For me, she'd have to live with stock period and you have to keep rotating the area so she forms a territorial connection. If you aren't geographically set up to develop her, it could affect the end product. The pups I've seen, by her age show a pack relationship to their stock. In the beginning they sorta treat them like siblings and they do have a few goofball moments. I've read about the pulling on the goat leg and such. When I watch an LGD, I know when he is guarding or when he thinks a threat is near. They take steps to put the flock where they can effectively guard them. I know she alerts to things she hears but is there anything about her behavior that demonstrates that she thinks she is supposed to be taking care of the flock---not just mutual co-existence without doing harm. Sicne you said if you can't break her for chickens, she would be a pet, it make me think she wasn't much use for the sheep or goats. For example, Thunderfoot lives with ewes/lambs. You can tell how the relationship changes depending upon whether his guard switch is on or off. Guard switch off: ewes dictate to him what his boundaries are regarding the lambs. Guard switch on: he dictates to the ewes that they should move off him and go where he tells them and they can't leave until he tells them. The stock reads which switch is on and acts accordingly. Its a relationship between the two, not just mutual co-existence.
> 
> Terrasita


I think at this age in her development co-existing is fine and she will grow into her job as to guarding. As a pup, it is self preservation all the way is how I look at it and others agree that she will grow into her job with age and maturity. I have not had any real problems with her interaction with the goats or sheep to date other than the dragging a kid around by the front leg, but again it was in fun and the goat really was not stressed over it. 
The main problem with my management is that I pasture the poultry alongside of the other species. so if she can't play well with the hens, then I have to focus on her learning electric fence this summer and move her into the flock. I have been warned over and over again not to put er in electric fence too early. So this is another stumbling block. Again, I do the best I can with what I have. Or don't have lol.
I moved over my flock of sheep just today to my stock fenced property so next on the agenda is to put her back out there and see what we get at this age. She was 6-7 months old when she was last with the flock. The lambs were older than they are now and she is bigger now too so it is anyones guess what her reaction will be. I doubt she will chase and if she does, again that is another sign to me that her prey drive is too high inherently and she is not going to be a suitable LGD candidate and I will have to give it up at that point. You can't fight mother nature. I can forgive a few chickens they are pretty irresistible to a youngster, but I am not as forgiving when it comes to the lambs. It is far too costly to loose lambs over a few hens.
I am at a crossroads with her it seems. The truest test I suppose will be just that...her reaction to the flock with baby lambs as a one year old.:-k
Well folks, stay tuned I guess!
Thanks again for everyones input.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Kerry Foose said:


> In the fall she lived in a 7 acre area with multiple paddocks all open with whether lambs, goats with older kids, three horses and laying chickens. In the summer last year she was in the barn and it had opened up to the barnyard where she lived with chickens and goats freely. It was in the fall where she played with young birds (pullets) and was chasing them and killed 3. I penned the chickens and kept her out in the field until late March when I kidded and lambed. In which case she was penned in a small 50x50 pen that she could see all of the pasture including the horses, chickens and the goats with their infant kids.
> ?


Kerry, 
Regardless of the outcome with the lgd, would you like to adopt me and my sheepdog, Nell?. Currently we have an inappropriate placement in the suburbs. /beg


Margaret


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

*Re: LGD starting/update*

Well as promised, here is the update. We moved some stuff around and modified some fencing and gates and now we have Alka protecting bees, the garden and a ram and a billy on a 2 acre wooded lot.
She annoys the goat, but not anything harmful, just in a playful way. We remedied that by borrowing a neighbors shar for some play dates in that enclosure to turn and burn and drain some energy. 
We have black bears here in NEPA and they do like bee hives.
On Saturday night, Alka proved her worth, as a bear was spotted not too far from our place and the neighbor reports that "your dog was going nuts last night". Well, we found everything to be intact and she seems very content in this new job far away from the field where the chickens are pastured. She has the ability to see the ewe flock and the bouncing lambs, while she is interested she has not been aggressive or even tried to get into that pasture, at least not yet, but it has only been a few days. <<<keeping fingers crossed>>
So far, so good...perhaps there is hope for her yet 
next step...electric fence training.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

For those of you interested in Alkas progress as a LGD, I am happy to report that she is improving.
She has accepted her new pasture and her new stock. We started out with the billy and the ram and have since added mature nannies and two weaned kids.
She is absolutely showing guarding signs now with her ritual face licking of the billy (the one she would drag around by the leg). The ram never had a problem with her and neither did the nannies, but they were always mindful of her activity. The weaned kids only weigh around 35-40lbs. so I was concerned there as she outweighs them by quite a bit. Once again the chase was on and she constantly pestered the one doeling. Her injury was limited to a hind leg, again it was not the neck so that tells me she was not in it for a kill, just for the fun of it. I use an air horn to end the chase and then I put a stick on her to limit her chase ability. On the days where she was wearing the stick are the days where she got kibble only as her meal...the stick came off every night. And the next day it was a fresh new start, if she got caught chasing she got the stick and the kibble again. If she didn't chase (or get caught) she was free and got her raw diet that night and a walk up on the mountain.
Today I am happy to report that early this morning, she was seen lowing alongside the ram and buck up on the high knoll and the nannies and kids were just below them and so when she got up to look around, no one was alarmed and no one scattered as I had seen previously in the last 2 weeks. Finally!
On an interesting side note, about a week ago when we were walking her up on the mountainside, she left and went on a walkabout, normally we can recall her and she is within hearing distance and comes back pretty reliably. This time, she did not return. We got in the truck and made our way back down and there she was coming back from the gate of her pasture. It seemed as though she was checking on her stock. Very cool!
So there is hope for us yet!=D>


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kerry said
" Once again the chase was on and she constantly pestered the one doeling. Her injury was limited to a hind leg, again it was not the neck so that tells me she was not in it for a kill, just for the fun of it."


Not necessarily!
The leg bite can sometimes mean an attempt to hamstring the prey. 
Don't let your guard down yet. :wink:


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Kerry said
> " Once again the chase was on and she constantly pestered the one doeling. Her injury was limited to a hind leg, again it was not the neck so that tells me she was not in it for a kill, just for the fun of it."
> 
> 
> ...



Well according to the LGD experts I've been in touch with, this behavior demonstrates a playfulness as seen within a dog pack...dogs will take other dogs out at the knee in play along with body slams, etc... So in a weird, twisted kind of way what they are saying that this is _he_r way of bonding. So we shall see.:-s
I think she is learning that the kid does not fight back, nor does it bite, so there is no way for her to judge a bite inhibition like another dog would react to this type of play. The goat just goes limp and she drags it around and waits for it to get back up...she has not punctured the skin actually, so I think it is more of a ligament or muscle soreness that is making her lame.
Again, my fault because if she had another dog to pair with her, she would have learned her boundaries much quicker and the other dog would have been an outlet for play too.
So it is yet another page in the chapter of a book in a series of the LGD saga lol!


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## Bobbi MacCandless (May 29, 2010)

Just my 2 Cents --

If you can get your hands on "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" by Max v. Stephanitz, before he EVER goes into "German" shepherds there's quite a long "History Preface" about the entire recorded history of "Working Dogs" on the Eurasian Continent --- as best dear old Max could research it at the time. 

Natcherly he relates his research to the genetics and origins of the GSD breed (when it was REALLY gsd) but... Cnl v. Stephanitz is methodical, thorough, pedantic, droll and amusing, even translated -- he describes everything to meticulous detail... meaning ALOT of real-old-world genuine application information on the fundamental TEMPERMENT ELEMENTS of LGD and/or Herding Dogs...

The v. Stephanitz book is like, the old-testament for any and all working dog things... Yes I know he's teutonic and biased for "his" breed, but the really GOOD info is worth overlooking a few human faults

Best 2 you
Bobbi


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## Rox Brummer (Jul 7, 2009)

Hi,
I have Anatolians, and a couple of things spring to mind. Firstly, I wouldnt use play dates with another dog as a way of draining energy at all. Great idea for most types of dog, but for a LSG it is bonding with something other than the flock. In terms of the age, by a year, I would expect a dog to be working pretty well. I dont know your breed at all (just googled it to even see what it looks like) but my Anatolians have been working well before that. It sounds like the separation at lambing time is a bit of a problem. It breaks the bonding, partiucularly in a young dog. It sounds like there has been too much chopping and changing. I would decide what the dog is to be guarding and stick to it. No more changes, and remember that they bond to their flock, not just a species. They will protect THEIR goats, but not just any old goat. By splitting them up, your breeding herd become "any old goat" to them. 
In all honesty, I would deal with the chicken issue with an elecronic collar BUT you would have to be sure you could supervise it all the time for a while to make sure it was ALWAYS the same response to talking, and would never ever give any command with it. You want the dog to think hunting chickens is unpleasant, not ignoring your command being unpleasant or it will carry on hunting if you arent there.
Godd luck with it!


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