# Raw problems



## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Recently went back to raw with my Mal after a year on kibble. Although he started looking better very quickly he has had really bad diarrhea. Just feeding a bone in chicken meal in the morning and chicken gizzards in evening. Not feeding too much and I'm about to go back to kibble if I can't get this straight. He hasn't had an accident but it is pure yellow water coming out right now. Any suggestions would be appreciated


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Do you think you might have switched him too fast? I've heard some dogs need a gradual switch to avoid intestinal upset.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

that seems like a lot of gizzards
-too much organ meat has given my dogs the runs. i go light on organs and never feed it daily

if i need to stabilize i give nothing but drumsticks for a week or so and watch the poop
- thigh attached is also a pretty good balance of bone and meat for me

bad runs - i give nothing but chicken necks and the poop gets firm asap
- plus chicken necks are dirt cheap bought in bulk 

gizzards/liver/heart etc ... once a month or so


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Larry
by the way, what do you mean by : "feeding a bone in chicken meal" ??

i'm a big fan of making the switch feeding chicken necks for a couple weeks
- the problem i've seen is that people can't find where to buy them in bulk, since they usually aren't found in regular markets

then i go to drumsticks and thighs, and finally cut up whole fryers, bag the parts and feed randomly


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Larry
> by the way, what do you mean by : "feeding a bone in chicken meal" ??
> 
> i'm a big fan of making the switch feeding chicken necks for a couple weeks
> ...


Something such as quarters or wings Rick. Something with the bone in. As far as gizzards, they are not really organs but muscle meat. Never had this problem with him before. Since my first post he had a blowout in his crate. Think I'm done with the raw


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Remove the skin and fat from the chicken. That can easily cause the squirts.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Remove the skin and fat from the chicken. That can easily cause the squirts.


 Agreed. With mine, too much skin can result in the runs.

You might also try a different protein. I'm getting away from chicken in both my own diet and my dogs diets.

Do you have access to turkey or duck necks? Both are good protein sources, they come skinned and both are bigger than chicken necks.

Again, I have seen where some dogs do have some stomach issues when switching all at once, you might consider a more gradual approach.

I'm hoping Connie will chime in, she's my "go to gal" when I have questions about raw feeding. You might want to shoot her a PM.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Most likely IME: Too much of the new food per meal, or too much fat all at once in the new food.

I start with one thing (usually backs, skinned) and I don't add anything else until I see the good log poops from the skinned backs.

Also, with your dog's gut in an uproar now, I'd fast for a day (plenty of water, of course) and start over, and I'd start with small snack-size meals.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Most likely IME: Too much of the new food per meal, or too much fat all at once in the new food.
> 
> I start with one thing (usually backs, skinned) and I don't add anything else until I see the good log poops from the skinned backs.
> 
> Also, with your dog's gut in an uproar now, I'd fast for a day (plenty of water, of course) and start over, and I'd start with small snack-size meals.


I normally start with backs Connie but I can't get them right now without ordering. I have fasted for 24 hours now and I was going to give a small leg quarter skinless but I just let him out and he still has diarrhea, not bad but still loose so I'm hesitant to give him a raw meal


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Larry Krohn said:


> I normally start with backs Connie but I can't get them right now without ordering. I have fasted for 24 hours now and I was going to give a small leg quarter skinless but I just let him out and he still has diarrhea, not bad but still loose so I'm hesitant to give him a raw meal


Do you have the food he was on? I'd give tiny snack-meals and wait for the poop results to be firm logs before increasing the food (and then after that, going back to raw). And I'd start the raw with small "peeled" snack-size meals. 

It may sound like overkill, but diarrhea is much easier to avoid than fix, IME.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you have the food he was on? I'd give tiny snack-meals and wait for the poop results to be firm logs before increasing the food (and then after that, going back to raw). And I'd start the raw with small "peeled" snack-size meals.
> 
> It may sound like overkill, but diarrhea is much easier to avoid than fix, IME.


Will do Connie. Thanks


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Thanks for the input folks


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i've used chicken necks successfully on more than one dog. otherwise i wouldn't have suggested it. not sure of the bone/meat ratio as compared to backs but i think backs would be more expensive. chicken necks are actually longer than what i imagined....at least over here they are


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

I don't feed raw atm but did for years. Whenever my dogs got the runs I did 2 things. 1) skip a feeding 2) feed 1/2 a can of mashed pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling, but pumpkin). Then back to a regular feeding the next day. The pumpkin increases viscosity in the intestines and slows things down as they move through. You can even add a spoonful to regular meals for maintenance, but this isn't a replacement for bone.

Moving forward if it continues I would increase the bone amount. Chicken backs are great for increasing bone. Remember when u feed just gizzards your not getting any bone content and bone is what makes the stool firm.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

lannie dulin said:


> I don't feed raw atm but did for years. Whenever my dogs got the runs I did 2 things. 1) skip a feeding 2) feed 1/2 a can of mashed pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling, but pumpkin). Then back to a regular feeding the next day. The pumpkin increases viscosity in the intestines and slows things down as they move through. You can even add a spoonful to regular meals for maintenance, but this isn't a replacement for bone.
> 
> Moving forward if it continues I would increase the bone amount. Chicken backs are great for increasing bone. *Remember when u feed just gizzards your not getting any bone content and bone is what makes the stool firm.*



Good info here. Calcium in the bone is indeed the big poop-firmer.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

using pumpkin as a stool hardener has been well documented
- it is mostly the fiber that is doing the work; not unlike additives that the kibble makers use (Science diet with peanut shells, etc)
- i have never seen any clear data that it has much nutritional value, but it does contain at least 80% water which will help a dog who is dehydrated from the runs

i prefer to do it with the calcium intake in a high bone to meat ratio like chicken necks; plus they are getting the protein from the chicken, which is a win win

nothing wrong with backs; i have just found necks work quicker.
the only cons i have had with stateside people is not being able to find them in bulk since they are not sold that way in most markets

with that said, if any dog would not get firm stools that way i would definitely be looking for another diet


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You may find this site helpful. I think it pretty much echoes what Connie said:

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/15/raw-food-diet-part-3.aspx

Changing an animal’s diet too quickly can result in diarrhea. I’ve had several dozen clients that either learn what’s really in their pet’s food, or realize the brand they’ve been feeding is actually quite terrible, and they go home and throw it out. They drive to the local upscale pet boutique and purchase a human-grade raw food, and their pet loves it. 

But then the dog or cat becomes very sick after a few days, and off they go to the veterinarian. Most vets erroneously blame all cases of diarrhea on the bacteria in the raw food versus the sudden dietary change, causing the veterinarian and the owner to panic unnecessarily.

Also, dogs and cats process raw foods and kibble very differently. Raw food is processed as a protein, held in the stomach for an acid bath, unlike kibble, which a dog or cat’s body views metabolically as a starch. If raw foods are added to dry foods for a meal, there can be digestive confusion, resulting in gassiness and belching.

When introducing any new food to a pet with a healthy gut, I recommend using the new food as a treat for a day, and keeping an eye on the condition of the stool. Increase the number of new food treats over the next several days and continue to watch the stool.

If the stool remains normal, replace one whole meal of old food with new food. Do this for several more days, and if the stools remain normal, it’s safe to discontinue the old food and feed only the new food.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Could the dog have gotten into some dirty water, e.g. giardia?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i've used chicken necks successfully on more than one dog. otherwise i wouldn't have suggested it. not sure of the bone/meat ratio as compared to backs but i think backs would be more expensive. chicken necks are actually longer than what i imagined....at least over here they are


I used to feed chicken necks as a staple too. 

Unfortunately my older GSD now tends to gets constipated with a high bone ratio and conversely, too much skin gives him the runs. Duck necks are larger than chicken necks and come skinned, so no waste. His evening meal nowadays usually consists of a duck neck and some organic beef meat, venison, pork or lamb. 

My younger GSD can tolerate chicken necks no problemo, but there's just not enough meat on a chicken neck, unless I give him tons of necks at a time, he starts to quickly get that bony headed, hollow eyed starved look. For him, since he's young, he gets lots of various protein sources like duck necks, venison, beef, pork tails, pork ribs, lamb necks, etc..

For myself personally, I've seen a couple PBS specials as of late documenting the trouble with chicken and it's just kind of turned my stomach, so I'm eating a lot less chicken, unless it's locally raised and butchered, which is not as easy to find as one would think.

That's one of the great things about living up here, my pork, lamb, beef, is all locally sourced, pasture raised, pasture finished, and organic. The venison is wild and courtesy of my hunting neighbors. 

Sorry to get off track, Larry...and now back to the regular broadcast schedule...


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Could the dog have gotten into some dirty water, e.g. giardia?


No Meg. He's all better now. Went back to kibble and I'll start back to raw slow


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