# BC vs. Malinois herding



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Could someone please explain to me the differences between working those dogs and also differences in training. I can only find people that will help me train herding if I have a BC or welsh collie.
Thanks


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Teresa will probably give a better answer but my suggestion is to look at some videos. The visual difference is noticable between the breeds. I've never seen a Mal or GSD work sheep or other stock the way BC's do.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Malinois are more genetically predisposed to be tenders not herders. Meaning they are a moving fence line not as much of gatherers as BCs etc. Many trainers who train BCs and the like don't really know how to deal with tenders and AKC and CKC herding tests are stacked for gatherers so generally tenders such as GSDs, Mals etc are not high scorers in these types of tests, though they can still participate. 

When I used to herd with my older Malinois she was very busy. As she was more predisposed to be a tender they want to move. So a tender would be more predisposed to train for and do a SV HGH trial. 

The main difference in the herding trials we are used to seeing in a HGH trial the flock will be 100+ sheep. Here is an overview of what one would expect at a SV HGH trial. http://www.german-shepherdherding.c...ionships/guidelines-for-herding-competitions/

I had some friends who took some tending lessons from this guy. If I wasn't so busy with Ringsport I'd have done lessons with him too. http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-home.htm


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I only have this to contribute


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Three huge differences. One, degree of eye; two. One moves away from pressure and the other moves into pressure. Three, responsiveness to handler pressure and compliance to command. Mals are gatherers. I have a 10 month old GSD puppy that has as much eye as some of the BCs I train. Anya us out of a dog that Ulf bred and very different from her sire in that she isn't the least bit handler sensitive. I'm rather surprised just how sensitive the dogs are that he trains. They have to do a lot of encourage ment and he doesn't want any other work put into them because it interferes with his training--dog will down with pressure, won't act independently etc. The type of dog I like he wouldn't find very trainable. Anya for sure would be a reject. My GSDs that I have worked are asmuch gatherers as the BCs. For a BC trainer though, its a night and day difference.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> I can only find people that will help me train herding if I have a BC or welsh collie.
> Thanks


 
Thats not uncommon. Trainers around here wont work with Mals either


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

What are the reasons given by the trainers who won't work with Malinois?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> What are the reasons given by the trainers who won't work with Malinois?


 
They want to win. BOOM! Just kidding. 

They have had more bad experiences than good with Mals, both in training and in trial. I personally prefer Mals over BC's in general, even though I was raised with working BCs and Aussies.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the answers dudes and dudettes.
No reason given, just:
"we only do collies"
"why?"
"we only do collies"

@Hunter: My missus' dad had a beast of a BC his bite was very strong and he had the minerals for sure.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Thanks for the answers dudes and dudettes.
> No reason given, just:
> "we only do collies"
> "why?"
> "we only do collies"


 
Maybe if you let them know you'll pay for any stock your pup eats, they may allow some training...and your pup may suprise them. Oooor you may have a freezer full of goat, or mutton.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

My mother has a BC that is built like an APBT, who I got on a sleeve a few weeks ago...much to her disgust. hahahaha! He has a pretty hard bite too.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

They only know how to train collies and really don't like or believe in the other breeds. At least they are honest. We just had a BC person judge here that openly said at the trials that Bouviers can't herd. She just thinks the ecollar is the answer. Fried the crap out of and shut down someone s gsd trying to get him to move off pressure. She trains lots of non BCs. Just because the will work them doesn't mean they will work them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T helped me with my GSD. First off he had a natural gather. first time ever in a pen with sheep Thunder pulled them so close into me that I could hardly walk. 
She was huge in developing he ability to drive sheep.
He didn't have the stron eye that a Border does but he had a presence just by walking on the field.
The difference between him and the average Border was night and day. 
The Border, in many herding trials here will be penalized for a bite on stock yet the GSD is expected to use grip if needed. The AKC herders in particular don't get that and, as T said, if it doesn't herd like a Border they don't have a clue how to work it. 
Doubtful if a Border will protect the shepherd as a GSD is expected to do in the HGH, or boundary style herding.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> T helped me with my GSD. First off he had a natural gather. first time ever in a pen with sheep Thunder pulled them so close into me that I could hardly walk.
> She was huge in developing he ability to drive sheep.
> He didn't have the stron eye that a Border does but he had a presence just by walking on the field.
> The difference between him and the average Border was night and day.
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > T helped me with my GSD. First off he had a natural gather. first time ever in a pen with sheep Thunder pulled them so close into me that I could hardly walk.
> ...


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Geoff Empey said:


> Malinois are more genetically predisposed to be tenders not herders. Meaning they are a moving fence line not as much of gatherers as BCs etc. Many trainers who train BCs and the like don't really know how to deal with tenders and AKC and CKC herding tests are stacked for gatherers so generally tenders such as GSDs, Mals etc are not high scorers in these types of tests, though they can still participate.
> 
> When I used to herd with my older Malinois she was very busy. As she was more predisposed to be a tender they want to move. So a tender would be more predisposed to train for and do a SV HGH trial.
> 
> ...


this was an outstanding way of explaining something i'd been trying to understand,myself, and then a link to even more pertinent information--thank you so much!!!
i have seen Border Collies work and could not wrap my head around how i could get that same "eye" (that peeled, gelled pupil times two which Border Collies unveil...scares the sheep and would work wonders on my kid, too, i bet) on my GSD, and wasn't that the way herding was done?
it was fantastic to see a much more suitable manner of working/being judged which would be something i could totally see my dog doing well.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Catherine Gervin said:


> this was an outstanding way of explaining something i'd been trying to understand,myself, and then a link to even more pertinent information--thank you so much!!!
> i have seen Border Collies work and could not wrap my head around how i could get that same "eye" (that peeled, gelled pupil times two which Border Collies unveil...scares the sheep and would work wonders on my kid, too, i bet) on my GSD, and wasn't that the way herding was done?
> it was fantastic to see a much more suitable manner of working/being judged which would be something i could totally see my dog doing well.


You just won't get that 'eye' with a European herder. They tend to move the stock with their bodies and muscle instead. That's the best description I could give, you need to see a decent one doing the work to really understand it. Sure they will gather and move stock but they do it way differently than a BC etc. Everyone sees a BC trial and thinks that is the only to move stock, so GSDs, Mals etc get the short end of the stick when it comes to finding stock trainers that will work with them. 

Originally Posted by *Matt Vandart*  
_Thanks for the answers dudes and dudettes.
No reason given, just:
"we only do collies"
"why?"
"we only do collies"_

That to me is a shame. The dog world much to my chagrin is full of stereotypes and old wives tales, passed on by snooty tooty holier than thou pecker headed truck hitch lickers.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Terrasita Cuffie said:
> 
> 
> > the ideal total package in the GSD? without testing in regards to manwork? just curious
> ...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> You just won't get that 'eye' with a European herder. They tend to move the stock with their bodies and muscle instead. That's the best description I could give, you need to see a decent one doing the work to really understand it. Sure they will gather and move stock but they do it way differently than a BC etc. Everyone sees a BC trial and thinks that is the only to move stock, so GSDs, Mals etc get the short end of the stick when it comes to finding stock trainers that will work with them.
> 
> Originally Posted by *Matt Vandart*
> _Thanks for the answers dudes and dudettes.
> ...


Sorry, but I disagree. Degree of "eye" or mental contact, communication, control of livestock, varies amongst border collies. The sticky eye came later and was more of a trial phenomenon. European breeds have eye and it varies in degree. You can even enhance it in training. The cattle bred dogs are more "body." But they can be worked to develop that eye detail. And its not just off contact start and stop obedience placement. All of my GSDs have worked with eye and my latest can be down right sticky. She actually claps. Its a by product of my saying "no, you don't get to use teeth." Working ducks and geese that don't move off of speed, bark, bite helps develop that paw step detail. Once the dogs discover it, they use it on other stock. You don't see it initially and you don't see it in round pen work. There's too much emphasis on getting the European breeds to work off the stock and stop. There's never enough emphasis on detail work when the dog hits the bubble. This is a by product of working runaway stock. So much emphasis put on tending and mechanical border work without researching the history. GSDs did all sorts of work with all sorts of stock--not just border work and the good ones [like Thunder] could take up that border and contain INSTINCTIVELY. I was actually told by a tending person that GSDs didn't have instinctive gather and group--that its all prey drive that you have to train. Mind boggling. But watching the videos and what he was doing, I could see how he thought that. I haven't worked one yet that didn't head and try to keep his stock together--all of them. I guess you can breed them so high up on prey and bite, that all they do is single, chase and grip but that is a selection and breeding issue. I haven't seen many Mals and most were either the super soft/sensitive variety or there's been so much e-collar work in them for obedience placement, I can't really tell what's there. A lot depends on how they handle pressure and overall nerve strength. Large flock and tending is great if you can find it. Its even better if its not bucket trained sheep trained to follow a person with a bucket and ignore the dog. A good BC is a good BC. I have a couple of awesome ones in my training group. However, I don't consider them any better for work than any other breed. It depends on what the job is. Feral sheep and perhaps an eye breed that will stay off the pressure bubble is EASIER. If my little life is at stake, I'll take my bouvier, GSD or corgi that has a since of defense of handler and will keep me safe. The best thing for anyone is to learn their dog/breed nuances and don't drink the koolaid of people who either don't know how to train/develop them to the best of their abilities, or don't want to.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Terrasita Cuffie said:
> 
> 
> > the ideal total package in the GSD? without testing in regards to manwork? just curious
> ...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Right I have found a place that will help me. Going Friday. They have help people train 'other breeds' but it was still all border collie for the win. One thing that confused me was they said a collie was more versatile than a Mali?!?!? Eh?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Right I have found a place that will help me. Going Friday. They have help people train 'other breeds' but it was still all border collie for the win. One thing that confused me was they said a collie was more versatile than a Mali?!?!? Eh?



Sounds good. Here is a video that I ran across on facesplat with some Malinois herding. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1494496437431626&set=o.514828198590902&type=2&theater

Pretty atypical on how they work. Mine worked very much like in this video. There is no real hard 'eye' as I said earlier even though Terrisita's saying that she disagrees with me, well I disagree with her that Malinois use 'eye' in a BC sense to move stock. They are busy and they crowd and bully the sheep to move them, there is a huge difference in their styles vs a BC.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Geoff Empey said:


> Sounds good. Here is a video that I ran across on facesplat with some Malinois herding. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1494496437431626&set=o.514828198590902&type=2&theater
> 
> was that a bit of Anatolian Shepherd at the end?
> equally unimportant question: is it typical to have both dogs going together? that is, i've only ever seen two dogs working a herd at opposite sides, or far away, but those were Australian Cattle Dogs and it was a big herd of beef cows. i didn't know dogs could herd in tandem...they looked very earnest.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Sounds good. Here is a video that I ran across on facesplat with some Malinois herding. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1494496437431626&set=o.514828198590902&type=2&theater
> 
> Pretty atypical on how they work. Mine worked very much like in this video. There is no real hard 'eye' as I said earlier even though Terrisita's saying that she disagrees with me, well I disagree with her that Malinois use 'eye' in a BC sense to move stock. They are busy and they crowd and bully the sheep to move them, there is a huge difference in their styles vs a BC.


Hard eye vs soft eye? Do you not think BCs can be just as body oriented? Ever seen BCs from cattle lines? You can TRAIN a dog to use eye.Eye is mental pressure. That mental pressure is the most pressure a dog can feel and plenty avoid it. Body is much easier. Some dogs innately bite when they feel pressure. You can develop the eye. I just did this with my 10 month old GSD puppy. You can either develop the eye or result to obedience placement and some turn them off with e collars or crooks. The BCs bully and try to use motion just like the rest of them. More often than not its nerves. If you know your stick its pretty easy to know when the dig is utilizing mental pressure vs not.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

And there is no eye in the video because they are not working sheep.
Here its not a question of style but training. Focused mental intensity is more effective for a lot of tasks instead of body (motion, bark, bite). I want the dog to have both in his tool kit.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> And there is no eye in the video because they are not working sheep.
> Here its not a question of style but training. Focused mental intensity is more effective for a lot of tasks instead of body (motion, bark, bite). I want the dog to have both in his tool kit.


What do you mean they are "not" working sheep? They are being used as a moving fence typical tending keeping the sheep off the road and probably out of crops across the road that is not fenced. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hard eye vs soft eye?


I haven't seen a GSD or Malinois use 'hard' eye maybe it is a breed specific thing. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Do you not think BCs can be just as body oriented?


Well yes they can, but that isn't what the atypical BC person is looking for though am I not correct? 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ever seen BCs from cattle lines?


No I have not in person. Most of the BCs I have seen work are from Scotland or Wales and have been used exclusively for sheep. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You can TRAIN a dog to use eye.Eye is mental pressure. That mental pressure is the most pressure a dog can feel and plenty avoid it. Body is much easier. Some dogs innately bite when they feel pressure. You can develop the eye. I just did this with my 10 month old GSD puppy. You can either develop the eye or result to obedience placement and some turn them off with e collars or crooks. The BCs bully and try to use motion just like the rest of them. More often than not its nerves. If you know your stick its pretty easy to know when the dig is utilizing mental pressure vs not.


I think that training a dog to use 'eye' is not really training in a classical sense of training, it is something that a dog may learn through experience and repetition. But to say as a handler that I taught my dog to use his 'eye' I'd be lying. I agree that you can develop the 'eye' by just not letting the dog do the behaviours you don't want and the dog figures out what he/she can do to get his/her reward which is to move the sheep. 



Catherine Gervin said:


> was that a bit of Anatolian Shepherd at the end?
> equally unimportant question: is it typical to have both dogs going together? that is, i've only ever seen two dogs working a herd at opposite sides, or far away, but those were Australian Cattle Dogs and it was a big herd of beef cows. i didn't know dogs could herd in tandem...they looked very earnest.



I'd say it is a Anatolian or mix of one, as the glimpse is so brief. 

Hard to say why the stockman is using 2 dogs as it is a short video for the most part the comments on FB the language(s) isn't one I understand so it's hard to figure it out. With the LSG there as well, I'd assume they are in a place, where there is a fair bit of predators. The 2 Malinois are probably to even up the playing field if the poop hits the fan. I've had a call from someone looking for 2 Malinois to use in bear aversion. I was a little surprised with the call, as usually they use Karelians or Catahoulas but this company wanted Malinois for the tracking and alert aspect.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Well that was a farce, will go into more detail after I stuff my face full of curry


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok, so I am currently in agreance with the BC people.
Not just because Sali washed out spectacularly but after long convo with the dudette traineress and actually watching an 8 month old green collie pup actually learning to herd in front of my very eyes.

Sali was like a number one ten pin bowler, I have never seen her prey drive kick in so high in my life, she was gripping left right and centre and couldn't give two tosses about any sticks or goats butting her 

Still one of the best 35 quids I have spent and 4 hours of my life though. Was really really cool. Also sorry T I forgot to ask them about corgi's (it was in pembrokeshire)


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Haha. Sounds like you both had fun. Thats typically what we see with Mals coming to test. Bowling balls. More than a few sheep and goats have been killed, which is why lots of trainers wont work with them. 

Watching BC's instantly pick up on herding and just go is amazing to watch. 5 month old BC doing what they do. 










That same pup was moving and driving 80+ sheep when he was 6 months old. I definitely dont think BC's are more versatile than Mals (every BC owner I know says that too), but I do believe over all, they are the best breed for herding.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

This womans dogs could have hearded rocks man!


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> This womans dogs could have hearded rocks man!


 
I believe it!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Ok, so I am currently in agreance with the BC people.
> Not just because Sali washed out spectacularly but after long convo with the dudette traineress and actually watching an 8 month old green collie pup actually learning to herd in front of my very eyes.


It's a wonderful thing when you see the learning and change before your eyes. But its even a better thing when someone can alter their point of view, admit it, and then learn from it. That's rare in my opinion.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Wow, you worked her one time and she is a wash out? 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> What do you mean they are "not" working sheep? They are being used as a moving fence typical tending keeping the sheep off the road and probably out of crops across the road that is not fenced.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Geoff, if I can capture it, put a word on it and get the dog to do it on command when I want it to, its training--like everything else we do in dogs. If I tell my dog to "walk on," he/she knows that's a walk with eye/mental pressure to effect movement and control. That's training. Left to his own devices, he might chose another route. And the reward isn't always access to the stock. I train an aussie that could care less about access to the sheep. He works more for an external reward and of all the dogs I've worked in over 15 years he is the most avoidant in terms of utilizing mental pressure. Yet, he does what he is trained to do. These dogs aren't mentally interacting with sheep. So you can't tell what their degree of eye is. Somewhere I have an instinct test of a Mal and it was not a gripper/slasher. Nerves and the degree of spun up reactive prey drive influence the equation but it doesn't mean the the dog can't be worked effectively. I still don't know what you mean by hard eye vs. soft eye. You should check out some of the videos of the Scottish trainers and their dogs and see how their puppies work. It will look very familiar. One will tell you that its every bit of 4 years to "develop" a dog. My bouvier would just as soon kill a duck as look at it yet; she was an eyeing fool in her first trials and high scoring for the day. I specifically chose the stock that she had the most spun up and craziest drive for to get into her head. That GSD puppy I just started was the same 90 days ago. She moves and effects them with tons of eye and rate now. One of the first things I tell people is don't be limited by breed stereotypes. How many years did they tell me that Pembrokes were drovers. They didn't understand the historical meaning of drover. They are very much headers and gatherers. Same thing with GSDs--they are tenders. They are headers and gatherers too. My pembroke would tend on his own. Leave him with the flock and on his own he would keep them in one place until I returned. That wasn't trained. One of my friends said everyone that doubts eye in the other breeds should pull up some of the wolf hunting videos. Watch for that eye/stare during the hunt. Personally, I think spun up load and explode prey drive can be an issue and high enough, wash a dog out. But one session of grip and run amok doesn't necessarily decide the equation for me without seeing it. There's grip and then there is kill. Then you look at the reason for the grip and what the dog/sheep/handler dynamics are. Is there a video of this?

T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Geoff, if I can capture it, put a word on it and get the dog to do it on command when I want it to, its training--like everything else we do in dogs. If I tell my dog to "walk on," he/she knows that's a walk with eye/mental pressure to effect movement and control. That's training. Left to his own devices, he might chose another route. And the reward isn't always access to the stock. I train an aussie that could care less about access to the sheep. He works more for an external reward and of all the dogs I've worked in over 15 years he is the most avoidant in terms of utilizing mental pressure. Yet, he does what he is trained to do. These dogs aren't mentally interacting with sheep. So you can't tell what their degree of eye is. Somewhere I have an instinct test of a Mal and it was not a gripper/slasher. Nerves and the degree of spun up reactive prey drive influence the equation but it doesn't mean the the dog can't be worked effectively. I still don't know what you mean by hard eye vs. soft eye. You should check out some of the videos of the Scottish trainers and their dogs and see how their puppies work. It will look very familiar. One will tell you that its every bit of 4 years to "develop" a dog. My bouvier would just as soon kill a duck as look at it yet; she was an eyeing fool in her first trials and high scoring for the day. I specifically chose the stock that she had the most spun up and craziest drive for to get into her head. That GSD puppy I just started was the same 90 days ago. She moves and effects them with tons of eye and rate now. One of the first things I tell people is don't be limited by breed stereotypes. How many years did they tell me that Pembrokes were drovers. They didn't understand the historical meaning of drover. They are very much headers and gatherers. Same thing with GSDs--they are tenders. They are headers and gatherers too. My pembroke would tend on his own. Leave him with the flock and on his own he would keep them in one place until I returned. That wasn't trained. One of my friends said everyone that doubts eye in the other breeds should pull up some of the wolf hunting videos. Watch for that eye/stare during the hunt. Personally, I think spun up load and explode prey drive can be an issue and high enough, wash a dog out. *But one session of grip and run amok doesn't necessarily decide the equation for me without seeing it.* There's grip and then there is kill. Then you look at the reason for the grip and what the dog/sheep/handler dynamics are. Is there a video of this?
> 
> T


T, I sorely wish I was over there with you as I would have loved to have trained Sali herding.
Points of note:
I don't have the herding knowledge or skills to train Sali.
The woman didn't wash her out, I did. It was way to intense for me and I could see it causing Sali future problems I don't need to deal with if I don't do herding with her. I would rather stock break her and be done with it, she did not take to it naturally at all. The woman said it could be done but what was the point when it would be several times the work/time as just doing it with a BC.
One can train a french bulldog to do bitework, but what is the point when you can use a GSD/Mali/Dutch.
Interestingly she had taken two of her collies unto working trials and one came out as a TDX champion and the other a PDX champion.

While we were chatting about herding in general at the start of the day she told me, and I swear this is the truth, that she was at a farmers market and there was a german sheperd there that she said was exceptionally good dog did all the eyes/ stalk/ balance stuff and was a natural, she said it didn't even sell for £50.
The reason, farmers here are just not going to bother with anything else when they can get collies that basically all you have to do is put the naturally occurring behaviors on cue. Considering they are running businesses I can see their logic. The GSD was up against loads of good collies, which is what the farmers bought.
By gripping I mean she had hold of a goat and I pulled her out, goat attached, it took a **** ton to get her to release, I'm not going to bother sorting that out without someone, like yourself who has alot of good experience of dealing with other breeds.

Edit: I just noticed you said 'there is grip and there is kill' her intention was to kill, if she had just been left to her own devices and had been more mature in that pen she would have probably killed them all.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I hope Kadi doesn't mind me posting this, I found it really rather good 

http://youtu.be/Yx74Aiao71Q


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I did, too.

I was born and raised near to the Welsh borders and we spent our holidays at our caravan in North Wales. 

Here, the young dog was coupled to the old to learn. I must admit I took it all as part of our daily life.

Only when I came to live in Switzerland and due to my husband's "job" within the Swiss Kennel Club, did I start to interest myself in the Sheepdog Trials. Someone told me that to herd 5-6 sheep at a trial was far harder than working a large herd.

My Swiss husband was once astounded as driving through British country lanes, we were blocked by a huge herd of sheep. Two farmers were having a chitchat but they looked round and one of them "whistled". In seconds, the sheep were "pushed" to one side by the dog and we were able to pass.

The Swiss Sheepdog Society have since left the Swiss Kennel Club. We went to watch a few Trials beforehand but not only are the dogs different, the handlers are, too. Some handlers are very competent but others tend to say "Platz", "lie down" but if the dog just sits, they accept it. The ones who are very consequent are the ones who top the list.

They invite GB judges and seem to have a very satisfying relationship with them.

I have a neighbour in the village who has a BC. When I come by with big Buster, she screams and chases around but doesn't come nearer. However, I have found out that he has started to train her with a local sheep herder who is also a judge in the Swiss Sheepdog Society. The improvement is phenomenal. She still screams, but one word from her owner and she is quiet.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> I hope Kadi doesn't mind me posting this, I found it really rather good
> 
> http://youtu.be/Yx74Aiao71Q


this was like poetry when poetry is good!


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Catherine Gervin said:


> this was like poetry when poetry is good!


I agree.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Vandart said:


> It was way to intense for me and I could see it causing Sali future problems I don't need to deal with if I don't do herding with her. I would rather stock break her and be done with it.


Without being there, it's hard to say what was triggering the "kill desire". But I agree, if you aren't planning to really do herding with Sali, you could create issues in other areas by trying to fix this. 



> she did not take to it naturally at all. The woman said it could be done but what was the point when it would be several times the work/time as just doing it with a BC.


 I wasn't there, but it sounds to me like your evaluator walked into this entire situation with the attitude that it wasn't a BC, therefore it isn't going to be any good. Not every BC is "gold" right from the start, I've seen ones who wanted to kill, ones with no interest, ones that rocked it the first time out, and everything in between.

It's very possible you could have gotten the "we don't kill the sheep" idea across in the first session, and once that was removed as an option for her, she may have shown nice instincts. It's also possible that wouldn't happen 

As far as "what is the point", well unless you own a number of livestock, what is ever the point in herding with any of our dogs, other than for fun and/or competition. And if you are a breeder, evaluating your dogs.

It sounds like the evaluator wasn't as involved as she should have been either though, I've seen some pretty amped dogs during evaluations, dogs with only one thing on the mind (catch/kill) and between long lines, stock crooks, savy trainers, and other "props" they were able to prevent anything other than some flossing.



Matt Vandart said:


> I hope Kadi doesn't mind me posting this, I found it really rather good
> http://youtu.be/Yx74Aiao71Q


I don't mind  I enjoy working with my Noodlehead. She's a little rusty on her flanks right now, she took time off to have a litter, then I fostered some rescue pups and a bunch of my dogs caught kennel cough, so she was off for about 5 months, but she's getting back in the saddle again.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I have to agree with Kadi. I just started my GSD and we had to work through the "thou shall not kill." Have done the same with some really talented BCs and my bouvier. Dogs that want to kill know how. They go for the throat and it happens in seconds. Herding takes a LOT of time investment and if you don't have it, then don't start it. You have to WANT it. It doesn't come easy and without a lot of hard work.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Oh and i might add, my 18 month old Cardigan in training out pointed a very well bred working line Kelpie at last weekend's trials. 

T


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh and i might add, my 18 month old Cardigan in training out pointed a very well bred working line Kelpie at last weekend's trials.
> 
> T


Are Kelpie's herders or tenders?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

They are all herders. I don't know where this idea came from that you have two different groups with mutually exclusive traits. The FCI has Kelpies and BCs in the same class--both having considerable eye and working styles in terms of how they deal with pressure. BCs don't walk out of the womb herding. Like any of the others, there is a lot of training and conditioning. Mine can be over zealous and over corrective with the stock. Too much of this and something gets hurt. True kill, you don't fix. Mine, through training learn the rules of engagement.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I don't know why the word tender comes up maybe because border collies are a tough act to follow.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't know why the word tender comes up maybe because border collies are a tough act to follow.


Only if you drink the koolaid. . I enjoy training them but really selection depends on the task at hand. Hands down the GSD is best for me but I have also said the next one I'll fully train will be an ACD for cattle.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I have to agree with Kadi. I just started my GSD and we had to work through the "thou shall not kill." Have done the same with some really talented BCs and my bouvier. Dogs that want to kill know how. They go for the throat and it happens in seconds. Herding takes a LOT of time investment and if you don't have it, then don't start it. You have to WANT it. It doesn't come easy and without a lot of hard work.
> 
> T


do you think that you can kind of predict how violently the dog will respond to trying to hurt the stock before they get together that first time?

what i mean is: my dog is still sometimes abjectly-horrible-with-other-dogs and sometimes she is able to pass by with just hackles and a little eye contact...we are working on it but it is slow progress. she understands that she may not pursue/engage any cats and she is 100% on that rule--we have a cat so this was easy to convey to her. she is balls-to-the-wall for squirrels and groundhogs and chipmunks and she has killed a neighbor's Guinea Hen. bad accident on my part--was lucky they couldn't have cared less. around horses she is friendly and curious--on the other side of the fence she tries to give them kisses. around a sizable herd of goat she is very excited and seems to exhibit an intense desire to chase them around but i have not/will not try getting her any closer without a professional there. we are going to a herding clinic to check it out--probably wearing a muzzle, just in case--mid-month and i am more than willing to put in the work and my husband is willing to do the driving but i wonder if we have already stacked the deck against us with our current critter experiences?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't know why the word tender comes up maybe because border collies are a tough act to follow.


Not really  Depends on the dog and the job that needs to be done. For example, the first Malinois I did a lot of herding with, Cali. Each year they would bring in cattle for upcoming trials. And each year who was used to do a lot of the "dog breaking" of those cattle, because they other dogs couldn't do it? My Malinois. Even the BCs had to be worked in teams, because one on one they didn't have "the stuff" to get the job done, and each time the cattle managed to chase a dog they got that much more confident in their ability to chase all dogs. Not that there aren't BCs that could have done the job, but at the time, and at that place, it was the Malinois and a GSD who were best able to get it done.

"Tender" comes up because it's one type of job, just like the "eye" comes up because it's one style of work. 

If you tell me a dog is from a "tending breed" that tells me it was bred to work in a more upright style, and will have a natural tendency to pace. Not as in pace vs trot vs canter but pace as in constant movement back and forth. It also tells me it's going to be a medium to large sized dog with a body style built towards moving long distances in a relaxed manner. IE it's not going to be a Corgi type build. Or even a working BC type build. Could a BC be taught to doing tending work? I'm sure they could. But it's not something they were bred for, where as it is a function some of the other herding breeds were bred for.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Catherine Gervin said:


> do you think that you can kind of predict how violently the dog will respond to trying to hurt the stock before they get together that first time?


Yes and no. I've seen dogs that were very critterish on small animals look at sheep and say "hell no". Remember depending on the breed a sheep can weigh over 200 lbs, and they are quite capable of damaging a dog. But I've also seen dogs that were critterish on small animals have the same reaction to large ones. It sounds like yours looks at the goats as prey, which means it's going to react to the sheep the same way.

How intent it is on doing damage, that's when training comes into play. This is Havok's first introduction to sheep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXaE6b7kJ2s

This is a dog who was good with our cats, but would happily kill squirrels, rabbits, etc. And would have very happily taken down a sheep if given half a chance. Doesn't look like it in the video though, because of his level of training. At that point I think he already had his FRI title, and I had a pretty good level of control on him. Plus he had a lot of respect for me. I put a few herding titles on him, but I always felt like there was a strong element of me protecting the sheep, and if I wasn't there, or in the right spot at the right time, he'd try to take one down. I'm sure we could have worked through that, but I was more focused on his mom Cali, and really only had the $$ to afford 1 dog in lessons so ...

I went to a lesson with one of my puppy people, I'd been hearing for awhile that she was thinking about quitting herding because her dog had taken down multiple sheep in lessons. Hadn't killed them, but had gotten a good hold and had to be pried off. Tons of flossing going on also. I watched them work the dog, then asked if they minded if I worked it. 2 or 3 well timed HARD corrections with and suddenly that dog was working the sheep well, staying off of them, taking flanks, etc. 

While I do think there are dogs out there that are so focused on taking livestock down they are either unworkable, or just not worth trying to work, I think they are actually few and far between. There are plenty of dogs out there that would like to take the stock down, but if you lay down the rules they are willing to work the way you say they should, and can turn out to be very nice herding dogs.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> How intent it is on doing damage, that's when training comes into play. This is Havok's first introduction to sheep.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXaE6b7kJ2s
> 
> this was fantastic!!! thank you so much for posting this, as it gives me a good image of the ideal response as far as potentially workable dog...i will be able to compare how well my dog fares in this venture and i can get all enthusiastic about how cool it is even at the very beginning!


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Only if you drink the koolaid. . I enjoy training them but really selection depends on the task at hand. Hands down the GSD is best for me but I have also said the next one I'll fully train will be an ACD for cattle.


 When selecting GSD do you pick lines from IPO or KNPV or is their herding lines?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Not really  Depends on the dog and the job that needs to be done. For example, the first Malinois I did a lot of herding with, Cali. Each year they would bring in cattle for upcoming trials. And each year who was used to do a lot of the "dog breaking" of those cattle, because they other dogs couldn't do it? My Malinois. Even the BCs had to be worked in teams, because one on one they didn't have "the stuff" to get the job done, and each time the cattle managed to chase a dog they got that much more confident in their ability to chase all dogs. Not that there aren't BCs that could have done the job, but at the time, and at that place, it was the Malinois and a GSD who were best able to get it done.
> 
> "Tender" comes up because it's one type of job, just like the "eye" comes up because it's one style of work.
> 
> If you tell me a dog is from a "tending breed" that tells me it was bred to work in a more upright style, and will have a natural tendency to pace. Not as in pace vs trot vs canter but pace as in constant movement back and forth. It also tells me it's going to be a medium to large sized dog with a body style built towards moving long distances in a relaxed manner. IE it's not going to be a Corgi type build. Or even a working BC type build. Could a BC be taught to doing tending work? I'm sure they could. But it's not something they were bred for, where as it is a function some of the other herding breeds were bred for.


Let me ask you then is that why they started breeding the GSD with the slanted back so they can tend the livestock all day. Since they are more of a upright herding style as you said?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ben Thompson said:


> Let me ask you then is that why they started breeding the GSD with the slanted back so they can tend the livestock all day. Since they are more of a upright herding style as you said?


Because 'they' are fcuknuggets.

Kadi, that was really cool, wish it had turned out like that with sali, but see that stick hit you gave him, sali took a few of them off of alcathene pipe, which stings like buggery and she didn't give a shit along with a few headbutts of the big goat. 
Also there was zero circling just straight in like a torpedo scattering goats everywhere then she singled one out she wanted for tea 
Maybe if I was somewhere that people are used to working with Malis the intro could have been better.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> Let me ask you then is that why they started breeding the GSD with the slanted back so they can tend the livestock all day. Since they are more of a upright herding style as you said?



That is nothing more then a fad that started back in the 70s just as the roach backed show line dogs from Germany. 
some big named dog with a big named handler started wining big and everyone wanted to breed to that dog. 
When I was showing dogs in the breed ring (terriers) I saw MANY big named dogs that weren't correct even by the standards yet they wee popular and they were bred to. Money and prestige drive breeding and not necessarily the most correct dog. 
The breeding for all that was to create more reach and drive in the show ring. It has nothing to do with the dog's being able to "tend the livestock all day". If that were so then it means the herding dogs of earllier times couldn't keep up working all day. 
The dogs that couldn't work all day weren't bred to at the very least and more then likely were culled. 
You'll never see all that slope and angulation on a wild wolf or coyote. Nature only allowed what works to be passed on through natural selection. Survival of the fittest!


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> That is nothing more then a fad that started back in the 70s just as the roach backed show line dogs from Germany.
> some big named dog with a big named handler started wining big and everyone wanted to breed to that dog.
> When I was showing dogs in the breed ring (terriers) I saw MANY big named dogs that weren't correct even by the standards yet they wee popular and they were bred to. Money and prestige drive breeding and not necessarily the most correct dog.
> The breeding for all that was to create more reach and drive in the show ring. It has nothing to do with the dog's being able to "tend the livestock all day". If that were so then it means the herding dogs of earllier times couldn't keep up working all day.
> ...


I don't think anyone who actually works livestock believes a roach backed dog can do that kind of work...but the conformation people do everything by looks. I've never attended a conformation show so I don't know if they sit around thinking that this dog looks like he would be a good sheep dog because his movement is a certain way. Or if they are just trying to impress someone wearing a fancy tie.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As I said it's money and prestige.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

As I said, tending is an activity not a separate set of traits. Conformation people breed for a look that has nothing to do with actual work or performance structure. I don't pick GSDs from "lines." My current dog is here because I liked what I saw in a video of her 16 week instinct test on goats. Next I liked her structure. Sire and dam OFA hips and elbows. Sire was a herding dog that I liked. Solid environmental nerves with no prior socialization. Lines-wise, she's German showline with heavy emphasis on HGH dogs and the Kirschental line. I tested a DDR dog that had to die for natural talent. Absolutely love Bob's dog who is WG/Czech. The young dog that I'm following at the moment is Bacon von der Staatsmacht. Mark Sheplack also has a young Lubeck son. I'm interested in the total dog and soundness. Its not so much about a preference for certain lines.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Bacon is a boy i love, too!! i also have my heart set on Terror von der Staatsmacht for my girl, once she gets a title.
we actually have an intro to herding set up for this Saturday but i don't know if my dog is coming just to watch or to be evaluated. this very nice lady in Braintree, MA said herding did wonders for her dog's confidence and that is my goal for my pup,too.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> That is nothing more then a fad that started back in the 70s just as the roach backed show line dogs from Germany.
> some big named dog with a big named handler started wining big and everyone wanted to breed to that dog.
> When I was showing dogs in the breed ring (terriers) I saw MANY big named dogs that weren't correct even by the standards yet they wee popular and they were bred to. Money and prestige drive breeding and not necessarily the most correct dog.
> The breeding for all that was to create more reach and drive in the show ring. It has nothing to do with the dog's being able to "tend the livestock all day". If that were so then it means the herding dogs of earllier times couldn't keep up working all day.
> ...


Okay, that explains why they move like Tennessee Walking Horses. It is pretty weird to watch that gait in a setting that is not in a ring, e.g. trying to move through the bush. It is not sustainable for long, so it must be meant for short, flashy jaunts.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and if they tried to move thru the bush the way they move thru an IPO trial they'd be running into a lot of obstacles  hope they don't develop curved necks too //lol//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

of course that sarcasm had nothing to do with the thread, but for some reason it came to my mind. nothing looks stupider to me than a dog moving in one direction and not watching where it is headed


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> and if they tried to move thru the bush the way they move thru an IPO trial they'd be running into a lot of obstacles  hope they don't develop curved necks too //lol//





rick smith said:


> of course that sarcasm had nothing to do with the thread, but for some reason it came to my mind. nothing looks stupider to me than a dog moving in one direction and not watching where it is headed


Actually the focused heel has practical applications. For example, when I'm out hiking or walking my dogs, when I come upon other people and dogs I have my dogs fus right on by, which is a very nice thing to be able to do, especially when coming across the multitudes of morons who's dogs are off leash, and also when in the city, and walking on crowded sidewalks.

I also know a couple K9 officers who mentioned they really like a focused heel for basically the same reasons.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Also focused heel is not just IPO.

PSA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF5iE--aZ-c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eXjb88npqw


Mondio: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrIjEUj4uI0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKe7DMlmsKE

French Ring:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3whr1zUboU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLFHYE1zjLQ

KNPV:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJsdBLFFPw0

NVBK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDzBkUb7l7Q

Okay, back to herding!!!!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'll agree a focused heel has some practical applications, but that wouldn't make me agree it is a "correct" heel position

maybe you will consider this nitpicking, but :
1. i assume everyone has a simple "look" or "watch" command when needed
2. i also assume a heel or fus command will bring a dog under control if it starts to fixate/scan for any "stuff" it needs to ignore. that's how our mwd handlers use it and it is quite effective when they are out on base and there are clueless lookie loos walking around checking out their dog. 

if my dog will break a heel under distractions it would be back to the drawing board for me. if it NEEDS to be looking at the handler all the time, that would also indicate it might not have a solid heel. i have that problem with my current dog and i can break its fixating with a "look" 99% of the time
..... but i'm not proud that i still need to use it  

to use it all the time still seems rather unnatural, unnecessary and somewhat dumb to me, but i can understand how it looks impressive to trial judges and seems to have become the new standard, etc
- i think a good dog can heel perfectly looking where it is going and does NOT need to gaze up at its owner.....and to me that is the proper picture of a dog being attentive to its handler while off lead

- the sarcasm was mostly about how quick we all jump on all the "show" stuff, when imo, the new type heel seems like it is mostly for "show" also


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

When I'm out with my dog and I want him to stay by my side, I tell him to "da bleiben" = stay by me. He doen't have to look up at me but if he tries to break, the consequences would be tough. I don't mind his watching what he would like to chase after. In fact I think it's the "be and end all" if he can look and still remain by my side. If he tries to break, I "down" him harshly.

I would not compare the trial heeling (as I see it) to this as it is built up in a completely different manner.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I concur with Rick and Gillian a dog should not have to look at me to be neutral to other dogs people etc.
Having said that I found it invaluable whilst sorting Sali's asshat problems out.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i'll agree a focused heel has some practical applications, but that wouldn't make me agree it is a "correct" heel position
> 
> maybe you will consider this nitpicking, but :
> 1. i assume everyone has a simple "look" or "watch" command when needed
> ...


The purpose of my posts were to show you that there are practical, real world applications for the focused heel, both in my life and in the lives of some LEOs, and that pretty much all grip sports utilize the focused heel, not just IPO. As to it being correct, I disagree it's very correct.

No, not everyone utilizes a "look" or "watch" command. In fact no one I've ever trained with uses one because fus means fus.

News flash: it's not "new" it's been around for many, many years.

I don't really care whether or not you or Gillian or anyone else uses or doesn't use a focused heel, and it has nothing to do with breaking from distractions, my point was to show there are practical purposes...that's all!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I also use a focused heel when I'm trialing. The rules don't require a heel to the post but if they are focused on me, they are not loading. Its definitely handler preference.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Focused "fuss" for sport and "with me" for a casual walk where all that is required is the dogs have to be within 2-3 ft of me. 
I'm not a huge fan of the focused heel but it serves it's purpose in the ring.
Trust me. A dog with focused heeling is still very much aware of it's surroundings.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I agree, but equally, a well trained dog that is heeling without star gazing is still very much aware of it's human.
Anyway much as I love a good diversion, focussed heeling has nothing to do with the original intention of the thread which was to share the gloom/mirth of my attempts at getting Sali to herd livestock and is likely, much like conversations about 'drive' to turn sour and rather boringz.
I think I will change her name to Redrum.......


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Vandart said:


> I think I will change her name to Redrum.......


LOL :lol:


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## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

This thread was interesting. I have a mali that we did an instinct test on and will begin lessons in a couple days. My concern is my lack of knowledge on what is appropriate/good training and what is bad/inappropriate for my dog. Suggestions for good training videos, sites...so I will know if I should pull him from this trainer?
Marta


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

marta wade said:


> . Suggestions for good training videos, sites...so I will know if I should pull him from this trainer?
> Marta


If your gut says "grab your dog and run!" Then do so. Watch how they handle and deal with other dogs. If I don't like the way the person is treating my dog and they can't explain what or why they are doing what they are doing..... then I would grab my dog and run. One thing I would suggest is to watch them train another dog of the same breed as yours just to see how they do. All dogs are individuals and will behave differently even if from the same breed. Good trainers can adjust their methods to the dog, not the other way around.


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## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks for the advice. He doesn't do a lot of malinois but he was gentle with corrections on my dog during the instinct test. I liked that since a female I took to someone else just figured it was a Mali so needed a hard correction and she really didn't. I just haven't been around herding lessons so don't know what to expect in regards to actual training techniques and progess.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi. Each dog is different in terms of how quickly he trains. The same holds true for the handler. Its impossible to estimate. Trainers vary a lot in terms of approach. I start all my dogs on ducks and do as much as possible with line work and marker training
Others utilize tools and pressure and release
Each dog is different and you have to choose your methods and stock accordingly.


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