# Was the k9 called off?



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9VdIdmuCCU&feature=more_related

Don't know why k9 did not apprehend, he looked pretty confident but from the video it seems he was called off. Any ideas?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

It appeared to be a call-off situation. Except for the body language, right at the end, I'm not so sure the dog wasn't called off. 

DFrost


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

looks like the dog didnt have the balls to get it done just what I saw


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I listened to it at high volume with headphones, the audio is quite legible.
I am not a sound expert or anything though...

I am pretty sure I heard a distinct out command given, but the way I heard it, the out was given after the guy turned and smacked into the dumpster and fell on the ground. I "think" him smashing into the juking and smashing into the dumpster caused the dog to re-adjust and "think" a little, right after that the dogs name was said (I assume), and when the guy was on his way up on the dumpster the dogs name was said again (whatever it was) but follwed by a very clear OUT/AUS. 

I am not a cop but it seems one kid on a dumpster after running and smashing himself up a little, is not a match for 6 cops AND a dog..so once the bite got stymied initially, he outed the dog.

It also seemed that once the dog did not immediately get the bite, and lost his focus momentarily, the officers were so far into the situation that they actually had to run back out or take cover, not from the the criminal, but from the dog..So the officer may have also been trying to prevent the possibility of a bite on an officer, once the dog recouped and got back on track.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I think that dog just dropped the ball, so to say. Im not experienced in sending a dog for a real bite but I don’t think that dog wasn’t biting no matter what command was given. Ill go out on the limb and say that if that dog was committed to bite he would have (in many cases) even if the out command was given when he was almost on target. I think a lot of cop dogs or any other dogs may have pretended not to hear the call off. As far as the out command after the guy hit the dumpster that was just the handler’s way of making it look like he really didn’t want the dog to bite. Then he told everyone what a great job his dog did with the call off and how lucky the bad guy was not to get bit. I don’t think the handler was to worried that dog was biting anything or anyone. 
The cool thing is even with the dog under achieving and running up to the bad guy with the intent to play fetch he still really helped to get the job done. Did you see the look on that guys face when he seen the dog coming? Made him run right into the dumpster. 
I would think that guy had to be pretty wanted to get that kind of attention from the cops. Not some J-walking ticket. 

That’s my inexperienced opinion. Do you experienced guys think im close or way off? And what kind of work would you do with this pup to improve his chances next time? Or should there not be a next time?


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Looks like the kid ended up where he belongs.


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

That was a dog with equipment issues..........no suit, no muzzle so he doesn't know what to do. I didn't see the look of a dog that was high gear either. I also listened for the call off but I didn't hear anythnig that sounded like a recall command or see any change in behavior that would indicate the dog was called off. He just kept running like they were out for some PT. The crossfire wasn't really safe either. Live and learn......................


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

People have short memories, that happened last year and was posted here, it was a drug/hostage situation. The dog was fairly new according to the interview you don't get to hear.

That guy needs to invest in some relaxer.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Damned that is one slow dog that has no intention of catching anyone. Dog should have been all over him....especially when the kid went down. As the kid gets up the dog makes a big circle away from him instead of being on him. That would be a dog I would want chasing me in any situation. You see dogs like that all the time hunting. They stay close enough to look decent but just far enough back to where they don't make contact.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Damned that is one slow dog that has no intention of catching anyone. Dog should have been all over him....especially when the kid went down. As the kid gets up the dog makes a big circle away from him instead of being on him. That would be a dog I would want chasing me in any situation. You see dogs like that all the time hunting. They stay close enough to look decent but just far enough back to where they don't make contact.



I am with Don, from the camera angle. i don't know if it would show the lack of commitment more clearly or not from the side, or something entirely different. looks like the end result is achieved anyway. Good guys one- bad guys zero


----------



## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

It looked to me that right before the K9 got to the kid that the K9 pulled up, which would suggest an " out " command. Dont know for sure if the K9 was outted but it does appear to me that the K9 started to hit the breaks just before the kid fell down. Or as Pete stated it could be a K9 that hasnt had a real bite and was confused not to see a sleeve to bite ?


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

i enjoyed the related video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIRvVBpT-4w&feature=related


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

At the point where the kid falls he is in front of th dog....th dog made a very purposeful move to avoid the kid and over ran him. The first indicator the dog wasn't intending to catch the kid was whnen the kid made the hard left. He actually turned into the dog and the dog hit the brakes at that point and let him go by.


----------



## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

It kind of looks like the dog stepped on his leash at around 58 seconds...would that have an affect?


----------



## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> i enjoyed the related video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIRvVBpT-4w&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqcFszgi3RY
0:58 a Dutch dog. :mrgreen:


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Brian McQuain said:


> It kind of looks like the dog stepped on his leash at around 58 seconds...would that have an affect?


Not from what I see. The dog had both rear legs locked up and was almost in a sitting position to avoid running into the kid. The kid hit the dumpster and fell. Rather than grabbing him the dog jumped over his legs and over ran him. The dog turned back toward the kid as the kid was standing up directly in front of him and the dog immediately changed directions and made a wide circle to the right(his left)....tail down. Dog didn't even jump up at the dumpster. Kid could have run straight and that dog would have never caught him because he didn't really want to.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

René Hendriks said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqcFszgi3RY
> 0:58 a Dutch dog. :mrgreen:


LMAO. How stupid can one person be. Take a swing at a cop holding a dog on leash. She is a victim of gross stupidity. LOL


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Even for a new dog, that was not good. The whole lack of speed and the avoidance of the suspect at close range, and the no pursuit into the dumpster is a problem. I'm pretty sure they'll address that issue in training. When I had my "flyby", we went right back to training to address that problem. Let's just say we no longer had that issue afterwards, and our next street bite was very solid.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Dog went into aviodence when the kid hit the bin. Not a quality dog from what the video shows.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

René Hendriks said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqcFszgi3RY
> 0:58 a Dutch dog. :mrgreen:


 But all you Dutch guys only train in "prey" drive and dont make your dogs serious by training in defence.......\\/


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not from what I see. The dog had both rear legs locked up and was almost in a sitting position to avoid running into the kid. The kid hit the dumpster and fell. Rather than grabbing him the dog jumped over his legs and over ran him. The dog turned back toward the kid as the kid was standing up directly in front of him and the dog immediately changed directions and made a wide circle to the right(his left)....tail down. Dog didn't even jump up at the dumpster. Kid could have run straight and that dog would have never caught him because he didn't really want to.


You're quite the little armchair quarterback Don, why don't you post some video of your dogs bringing down a big boar.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Let's keep the discussion about the video. 

DFrost


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Let's keep the discussion about the video.
> 
> DFrost


OK, I apoligise to Don.

Maybe they shouldn't have let it be taped, I'm sure one way or the other the issue has been resolved...for some time now.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You're quite the little armchair quarterback Don, why don't you post some video of your dogs bringing down a big boar.


Or.... why don't you just give your opinion of what you see in the video. I guess you like what you saw, eh?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Or.... why don't you just give your opinion of what you see in the video.


I did, you did also..3 times.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

In response...just like now...this is the second one responding to you. :grin: Go for three?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

STOP! 

Thank you.

DFrost


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The dog never went into full prey mode on a running subject. That's a problem from the get go, never mind the other stuff Don pointed out. The dog looked clueless. Is he a bad dog, or is it bad training? Only an insider knows for sure....Hell, the insider might be the bad trainer. Dog looks young and obviously inexperienced.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> But all you Dutch guys only train in "prey" drive and dont make your dogs serious by training in defence.......\\/


Nahh, that was a GERMAN SHEPHERD A.K.A POLICE DOG\\/.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32DEFTwzIGs&feature=more_related

Another good one i guess, a little slow to bite but once on the bite.............


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have a question about the dog in the original video. It was mentioned a couple of times that it is back to training for this dog. In view of that fact that in a high stress situation like portrayed, many untrained dogs would have bit the guy at a full run with all the yelling going on........how many think this dog should go back to training or just washed out....or is it a money thing?


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Dog looked young, probably never saw a bite with no equipment, he was never going to engage from go. Sad to see a dog out on the street like this.


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Wash him out just because of that? Nope, but if there were other things the trainer saw prior to this then probably. It takes some serious balls to admit that you need to adjust your training. But I'm willing to put money on that the trainer won't take any heat for this and blames the handler or dog. When it happened to me, the trainer at that time wouldn't take any blame. We then went to Man K9 in San Diego, with Manuel Villanueva and he turned him into a push button dog. Took his focus off of the gear and made man the threat. Manuel may be the best trainer I have had the pleasure of working under. He might also be the most humble.

If the dog didn't show some improvement in training, in scenarios that are dsigned to address this issue, then yes, pull him.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have a question about the dog in the original video. It was mentioned a couple of times that it is back to training for this dog. In view of that fact that in a high stress situation like portrayed, many untrained dogs would have bit the guy at a full run with all the yelling going on........how many think this dog should go back to training or just washed out....or is it a money thing?


"Many untrained dogs would have bit the guy at a full run with all the yelling going on"

Is this a typo ??


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Pete Stevens said:


> Wash him out just because of that? Nope, but if there were other things the trainer saw prior to this then probably. It takes some serious balls to admit that you need to adjust your training. But I'm willing to put money on that the trainer won't take any heat for this and blames the handler or dog. When it happened to me, the trainer at that time wouldn't take any blame. We then went to Man K9 in San Diego, with Manuel Villanueva and he turned him into a push button dog. Took his focus off of the gear and made man the threat. Manuel may be the best trainer I have had the pleasure of working under. He might also be the most humble.
> 
> If the dog didn't show some improvement in training, in scenarios that are dsigned to address this issue, then yes, pull him.


100 % agree.

My last dog on his first real runoff hit the guy with all 4s in the back. The guy had a 50 yard head start and he was hit at full speed. All I saw was a cloud of dust as dog and escaped prisoner hit the ground. I was flabbergasted when the bad guy got up and started running again!!. I was all kinds of pissed off about it and spoke to my unit trainer about my concerns. His reply was that I was paranoid and he discounted it as inexperience. That was not good enough for me so I immediately began working on the problem. A month or so later I had an identical scenario and the outcome was much different. I had no other physical apprehensions in that month of training and the positive outcome was the adjusted training regiment I am sure. In my case though the dog was in full committed pursuit and made full bodily contact so maybe I had an advantage over the dog in this video.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have a question about the dog in the original video. It was mentioned a couple of times that it is back to training for this dog. In view of that fact that in a high stress situation like portrayed, many untrained dogs would have bit the guy at a full run with all the yelling going on........how many think this dog should go back to training or just washed out....or is it a money thing?


Now what makes you think that???? 

Again, everyone making assessments. Training should be 10x as hard as it should be on the street or in combat! Every last possible thing has to be looked and and encountered not only for the dog, but the handler too! In high stress, do you mean for the handler TEAM or just the dog? This should of been a cake walk for the dog if training was/is done properly.

So Don, what do you think should happen?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Do they put brand new dogs on swat teams ?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do they put brand new dogs on swat teams ?


 Not usually. The training is often different than a regular "street" dog as well. That wasn't a SWAT team deployment. Watching it again and again and again, I really don't think it's as bad as everyone says it is. I see a call out, I see the officer in front with the shotgun. The dog turns back to suspect, but then comes away. Maybe some confusion, but I really don't see the big problems everyone else does. 

DFrost


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If that was a call off, which I cannot hear for shit, I tried to hear, but I didn't hear it then it is nicely done.


----------



## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

I can't hear anything, but at around 58 seconds of video, it appears the dog gets some command. He looked committed to the bite to me, till that point, then either was commanded to stop, or maybe got kicked in the face and quit. I can't tell, but his body language at that time tells me something made him change is mind at that point.


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

ok, Ill chime in too lol.... why not?

Looks to ME like the dog was in play mode.... not really intent on biting, just chasing and having fun... then the kid hits the dumpster... dumpster moves dog has "a moment", then he is confused a bit. I cant hear any commands so maybe that is where the confusion comes in? IDK

thats what I see...

t


----------



## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

It is my opinion that this dog was not committed to actually biting the man, he was giving chase yet found no presented target location and became confused. When the bad guy hit the ground and turned into the dog the canine bounced backwards, an issue also for sure. 

It was at this point that I heard the first out command, when the bad guy was regaining his feet and heading for the dumpster. Up until then I heard several get on the ground type commands directed at the bad guy not the dog. 

Seeing only a very brief glimpse into this canine and handlers world would make me foolish to comment on training or genetic issues, so in turn I will just say that the canine did not have the right tool set to engage this bad guy in this incident whether that be genetic or training I have no idea without gathering further information.

Just my take…


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do they put brand new dogs on swat teams ?


I agree with David that they usually are not . But what folks don't realize is that most dogs only bite less then 10% of the suspects they find or confront . Most K9's are not working in high crime areas but in suburbs or rural areas and get very few opprotunities to get into a situation where they will have to bite . Many K9s I've come across from around the country have on average 0 to if they are lucky 3 physical apprehensions(bites) in their career . Even a K9 that has been on for years and has found many people may never have been called on to have to bite someone and if they had it could be years into their service . So the chances of some of these rural or suburban SWAT teams having a dog that has been proven over and over again to be able to engage a suspect confidentally may not be there . 

I taught a SWAT K9 class at one of the national SWAT organizations conferances . I was later approached by a rural SWAT team that had sat through the class and currently didn't have a K9 on the team . They wanted to use one of there local K9s that had had several very good , extremely long successful tracks for suspects . I happened to know the dog and I knew the area cops loved him (so did the SWAT team) but I knew it had been on less then 2 years and never was in a situation to bite . I recommended they not use it and if they did only as a locating tool since the dog is untested in apprehension . I recommended , since this dog was one of the best trackers I've ever seen that they use it with the SWAT team only during high risk tracks and have a plan for taking the suspect into custody without the dog and rethink further SWAT applications after the dog had proven itself for real . 

In our department we have the luxury of having 21 K9s to chose from and being able to get dogs that had been proven in physical apprehensions before being put on the SWAT team . We only chose 4 dogs for team . 

There are other things SWAT dogs most do . They have to be the most environmentally confident dog we have besides being proven in a fight .


Here's an example from the show .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5GOcXuHDa0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

All of our dogs are exposed to CS gas because all of them will be expected to work perimeters where it may be used and the dogs could be exposed . Cobra was a very good dog and very strong on real apprehension but he would never be picked for the SWAT team where he would be expected to search in it because of his reaction to it . He coughs and clears his nose too much and would get exhausted quickly searching in a gas environment because of that . He tolerates it well enough to be a good perimeter dog though where the exposure level is much less . 

Now Brady Harrison's dog is featured also and he did much better and was later but on the SWAT team . His dog had proven himself over and over again in real apprehensions .

As for this video it's just too hard to tell what's going on . Not sure if it's a call off or encouragement or just someone else yelling . I do know is that at the time the Officer with the shotgun appears downrange is when I start to see the dog slowing down and that's a point I could see a call off being made .

That's a point where I as a handler have a split second to descide if I'm going to recall the dog because the suspect may make it past the Officer before the dog gets there putting the Officer at risk . Not sure what's going on could be a crappy dog or it could be a crappy situation .


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Wayne Dodge said:


> It is my opinion that this dog was not committed to actually biting the man, he was giving chase yet found no presented target location and became confused. When the bad guy hit the ground and turned into the dog the canine bounced backwards, an issue also for sure.
> 
> It was at this point that I heard the first out command, when the bad guy was regaining his feet and heading for the dumpster. Up until then I heard several get on the ground type commands directed at the bad guy not the dog.
> 
> ...


I agree...headphones at high volume...I heard the out/aus, it WAS after the dog failed to engage, and the team was way deep into the situation..

It was 6 guys and a dog against a scared suspect..once he fell and jumped on the dumpster, maybe the dog was not a necessity anymore....


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Don don't want to make an issue out of it but;

"close enough to look decent but just far enough back to where they don't make contact"

sounds like a dog i would want. just differnt ways of doing things, each has benefits/disadvantages


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> Now what makes you think that????
> 
> Again, everyone making assessments. Training should be 10x as hard as it should be on the street or in combat! Every last possible thing has to be looked and and encountered not only for the dog, but the handler too! In high stress, do you mean for the handler TEAM or just the dog? This should of been a cake walk for the dog if training was/is done properly.
> 
> So Don, what do you think should happen?


I am just coming up to speed as my power has been out since Sunday evening. Jody, Don't know what I am suppose to think of what? 

As far as what do I think should have happened,....the dog should have bit the guy...or at least run into him at the first point of avoiding the guy....but he hit the brakes. If the dog was confused because there weren't any sleeves...that shopuld have been taken care of before he was put on the street.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Don don't want to make an issue out of it but;
> 
> "close enough to look decent but just far enough back to where they don't make contact"
> 
> sounds like a dog i would want. just differnt ways of doing things, each has benefits/disadvantages


But a dog that doesn't make contact is going to run the game to Tim Buk To.


----------



## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> i enjoyed the related video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIRvVBpT-4w&feature=related


*That* was Glorious!! \\/
As well as a real-world showing of why it's so important to teach the dog to turn his head the right way!


----------

