# Old school vid of training in Netherlands



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I thought this was mega cool!  Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pEsdQwXiU9E


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Sure puts into perspective why we have the dogs we do today. Dog can either do it or it can't and they quickly determined what breeds were better all around, including their bidabilitity. 
I wonder what they would think of the people today who say their dogs are too strong for sport (or just too strong to be trained)?
I wonder if they'd classify those dogs as breed worthy.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Pretty cool. Thanks Marta.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

very interesting clip...TX for posting it 
especially liked weaving thru the group down, the defense of the kids, and the variety of breeds; especially all those lean gsd's....
- btw, what breed was that supersized fur baby ??

the more of these vintage vids makes me think the "old days" were more of a group thing as compared to the solo work done in sports todays

can u imagine getting all the trial dogs to assemble in a "close quarters" group down and weave people thru them //lol//
... might be a nice temperament test for the dogs tho, given the amount of DA these days


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I saw an airdale, bouv, and possibly briar?




rick smith said:


> very interesting clip...TX for posting it
> especially liked weaving thru the group down, the defense of the kids, and the variety of breeds; especially all those lean gsd's....
> - btw, what breed was that supersized fur baby ??
> 
> ...


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## Lee May (Jan 8, 2012)

Nice Video, thanks for posting. Good stuff.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Women have come a long way since then! What amazes me the most is their wasnt anything difficult in their training. It looked like a fun club 
(except for no women;-) at least they were training the dogs.....JMHO
Thanks Marta....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Marta! 
Looked like possibly a Kuvasz in there also. They were considered a very serious dog. Not sure how so today with mostly show dogs. 
I sometimes question the "great" dogs of old when I see some of these old films. Even the bite work in many of them is weak. Obviously the training has gotten better but how much accounts for the less then formal work, control, etc? Some of the lakidaisical, off lead heeling tells me these dogs were at least somewhat "social.  There's that word stuff. 
Just a thought!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

wild ass guess, but i'll go out on a limb and say the dogs were probably capable of more "precision" OB work and more aggression, but that doesn't seem to have been the priority "back then" ... people having fun rather than having "serious" go down the leash
- and how many top level competitors these days are REALLY just "having fun" 
- how many of your PP dogs would you trust to hit a decoy in a group of kids with a child in their arm being carried off ? i think it would be risky ... but did that dog show PP ?? i certainly think so and it also shows a great confidence and trust in the dog .. all good to me ...
.... plus i also am guessing these weren't PSD trainers either 

overall, hard to compare "quality" of the dogs, past and present, but for sure the gsd WAS a very different looking dog back then


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Steers grow faster while eating less. Chickens lay more eggs. Thoroughbreds run faster. Cows produce more milk. Everything that we do with animals is better now than in the past. Why would dogs be any different? 

There are quite a few old films and VHS videos on Youtube now and you won't find one dog that could compete with the dogs we have now. Haven't we all been disappointed to see that some dog, that we thought was awesome because everyone said so and that we had heard wonderful fairytales about, turn out to be a turd? 

For instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkj9evFLVco


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

"why would dogs be any different ?"
they shouldn't ...
so i'll ask again ....
.... "how many of your PP dogs would you trust to hit a decoy in a group of kids with a child in their arm being carried off ?"
- should be lots of em out there today; piece of cake, right ???? 
- after all it's a realistic scenario and the dogs are so much better now //lol//

in some ways they weren't impressive, and maybe they weren't fire breathers back then, and then again, maybe they don't need to be ... unless there are points, fame and bucks involved like it is in todays competitive world

- i'll take a balanced working dog that WILL protect and not be a liability in public over a kennel kept monster any day
- but in todays sports world it's all about "EXtreme" and crowd appeal 

wish there were some vintage clips of psd training ... i haven't seen many ... that would interest me a lot


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> . Haven't we all been disappointed to see that some dog, that we thought was awesome because everyone said so and that we had heard wonderful fairytales about,





Christopher Smith said:


> Haven't we all been disappointed to see that some dog, that we thought was awesome because everyone said so and  that we had heard wonderful fairytales about,


I can think of one here in the states that was put on a pedestal and then I ran into the offspring.Rock solid everything, aggression through the roof, never say die attitude,etc, etc; turns out his children never got those traits







. It always concerns me when a dog doesn't actually compete in a sport but happened to pass a test one time and then is quickly wrapped and shipped to the USA for big money. The BS starts flowing quickly from the mouth of the new owner but very rarely is the dog seen or worked in public and if it is worked, merely a face attack once a year will prove the hype true LOL. This recycle repeats itself over and over with what seems to be the same recycled BS by the same person and followers.

As for the video, there are some dogs who seem tighter in the obedience. If everybody in a club did this today at the same time, it would look worse, much worse. Just going by some clubs I've seen personally. 

There were definitely some better trained dogs in that video.....The "performers" no different than today, for every well trained dog you get a handful who aren't. Overall better than what you'd get today if that exercise were to be done at a club tomorrow,JMO.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

rick smith said:


> - i'll take a balanced working dog that WILL protect and not be a liability in public over a kennel kept monster any day
> lot


Amen to that. Never seen a monster father a well balanced dog. Although I have seen these "monsters" throw dogs who are " monsters with nerve issues". Which goes back to, why would a dog show so much aggression if it's not warranted? Possibly nerves?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

rick smith said:


> "why would dogs be any different ?"
> they shouldn't ...
> so i'll ask again ....
> .... "how many of your PP dogs would you trust to hit a decoy in a group of kids with a child in their arm being carried off ?"
> ...


Sorry Rick, I would like to answer your questions but they are very unclear to me. Can you make them a bit more clear?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> As for the video, there are some dogs who seem tighter in the obedience. If everybody in a club did this today at the same time, it would look worse, much worse. Just going by some clubs I've seen personally.


Did you see the dogs at the club working in formations like this? I have done a fair bit of work with groups of dogs and have experienced the opposite of your experience. When large groups of dogs are all being worked together they tend to loose most of the negative behaviors that the dog might show if it, for instance, met a single dog walking down the street. IME, when dogs work in groups they tend to fall into lockstep with the rest of the "pack".


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Did you see the dogs at the club working in formations like this? I have done a fair bit of work with groups of dogs and have experienced the opposite of your experience. When large groups of dogs are all being worked together they tend to loose most of the negative behaviors that the dog might show if it, for instance, met a single dog walking down the street. IME, when dogs work in groups they tend to fall into lockstep with the rest of the "pack".


That makes sense, I was kind of insinuating that every club has somebody who isn't as good of a trainer and who's dog wanders while heeling. What you say seems logical. I've done AKC obedience in a fairly small room and all the dogs do seem to settle in, so I'd agree with you....but can they play flyball? Lol


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

rick smith said:


> "why would dogs be any different ?"
> they shouldn't ...
> so i'll ask again ....
> .... "how many of your PP dogs would you trust to hit a decoy in a group of kids with a child in their arm being carried off ?"
> ...


What part of that do you feel is the hard part? If the dog can hold a down by the kids and knows what a decoy is where is the dificulty? Sure the dog could miss and hit the kid by accident but that can happen playing ball. Finding someone to video it and put on youtube would be the difficult part. I don't think CPS was interested in dog videos then.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> when dogs work in groups they tend to fall into lockstep with the rest of the "pack".


I have trained ob/working trials control a bit in different group sessions (outdoors), and this is exactly what I have found. Lots of weave heeling facing the oncoming dogs etc. I've found it stimulates the dogs as well as help with focus, even those dogs who may have originally come with degrees of dog aggression settled well and fairly quickly. I've found it a very enjoyable and sociable way to train and the dogs seem to really enjoy it too.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

No sport or exercise is all that difficult if you have the time for repetitions, and some know how and a decent dog


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Steers grow faster while eating less. Chickens lay more eggs. Thoroughbreds run faster. Cows produce more milk. Everything that we do with animals is better now than in the past. Why would dogs be any different?


If this is true, why do some breeder's breed to a dead dog's frozen semen?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Paul, the majority of dogs who have been collected have been fairly recent. I'd say many times it is for the purpose of keeping certain traits more pure without having to use what another breeder felt was the right combination. I may really like dog A who passed away but i may not like the females he was bred to. Everything Chris described are single character traits on one animal. Dogs are bred for a multitude of traits that sometimes get scrambled in breeding so when a dog has the traits people are looking for, it seems more beneficial to go directly to the source without being inhibited by more generations of what they may not want. A Dogs breeding life is relatively short so extending it can also be beneficial IMO.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Paul R. Konschak said:


> If this is true, why do some breeder's breed to a dead dog's frozen semen?


They are going back and looking for traits that are exceptional. They are not going back and pulling up whole populations.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> They are going back and looking for traits that are exceptional. They are not going back and pulling up whole populations.



They could also be breeding based on hearsay and never have seen the dog work. As with "great" people, reputations usually seem to grow after the dog has passed.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> They could also be breeding based on hearsay and never have seen the dog work. As with "great" people, reputations usually seem to grow after the dog has passed.


Is that really any different than what many breedesr do today? Some just skip all the BS and just choose their male regardless if it's breeding quality or not. Goes on all the time with "military"/ LE breeders in the USA who talk up and down about there stud yet nobody sees them work, yet again people still buy a dog from them.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I think there are many reasons for using frozen semen. Not the least of which is using the frozen semen off of a proven male who was used as a foundation for a particular line in order to bring the old blood back to the front. It could also potentially be a linebreeding depending on the breeding of the dog that was inseminated with the frozen semen.

I think it is also worthwhile to mention that just because a dog's semen is frozen does not mean that the owner of said semen did not know or work or own the dog for the entirety of its life.


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## jan reuvekamp (Oct 9, 2006)

That is at my club. We are going to train there tonight and talk about the good time


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