# Decoying Question



## Jason Ross (Mar 12, 2012)

I noticed leerburg is coming out with a decoy video series. Does anyone have suggestions for other any other videos/books regarding the concepts of decoying? I've been trying to learn as much as possible about the subject and am begining to understand the mechanics but I would like to learn more about the whys of decoying.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

For suit work you can't beat the old Dances with Dogs with Jean Claude? Moreau


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Herve Mavunga has a video out. The one from leerburg is Mark Keating. That should be the bomb. He is a real good decoy. I want to see the vids. 
I have spent lots of time just watching vids of the cup, and selectiffs and other trials. That will give you an idea of what you are trying to achieve. Then stat watching those guy's training on youtube. There are lots of different styles out there. 
BUT There is nothing that compares to getting out there with a good decoy and lots of dogs. For some real help. That way you aren't doing what is wrong and not even know it. Also video yourself working dogs that helps lots.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Daniel

Do you have a pointer to the Mavunga DVD?
I'm looking forwarded to seeing the Leerburg/Keating series.
I just hope they are available quicker then the rest of the Leerburg DVD series. I'm too old to wait for a year for the next DVD in any series. Of course how long has it been since the last Balabanov or Plumb DVD from CTS or when the hell is the Kroyer Training with Pictures or Nose Work DVD being released?
Anyway back to decoy DVD's


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Find a decoy camp and go catch a lot of dogs.
Heres one in Chicago June 8-9
http://www.dogsportfestival.com/psadecoycamp.htm


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Decoying DVD Question*

The promo for the Leerburg/Keating DVD was taken at a recent seminar at the Greater Cincinnati Ring Club. At about the 5:30 mark there is a PVC frame in the background. Anybody have an idea of it's purpose?


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

this might be a good one
http://www.tarheelcanine.com/2013/01/police-k9-decoy-seminar-reading-pa-police-dept/


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## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

I agree on first hand experience over video's. I love to go to seminars or workshops just to see the different techniques...Greg Doud's would be another to attend.
Some are more favorable to certain breeds however.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Thomas it is a pvc box to restrict forward movement and keep the dogs straight on change of positions. My field looks nice om that video.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

assuming you have worked with a sleeve, etc ....

tons of online vids to watch of high level quality work, but if you want to actually decoy, i would find a course and take it

and i would suggest starting with dogs who already understand suit work and target well rather than just catch any dog
- watching the dog hit a suit a few times before catching it might also help and save you some surprises 
- refrain from catching long send outs and running in a suit until you are comfortable with close in (static) work, since chances are the suit won't fit you and you won't be able to move in it well

but regarding your specific question : "but I would like to learn more about the whys of decoying."
...could you expand on that a bit ?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I wouldn't waste your money on videos. Find someone and learn in person. Tarheel K9 is a great place to go for that, or one of their seminars. You'll find dogs that really bite that have left their school, and there is sport influence PSA/IPO which makes more sense in any training program and will help round out police dogs so they can both work well, and certify easily. The best of both worlds.



There are a lot of nuances that a video can't show, and they can't critique you, which is what you need to build a lifetime of doing it correctly.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

good responses on how to become a decoy, but based on what he wrote, it doesn't appear he really wants to start catching dogs
..... said he was interested in the "concept" and "why" ......
watching videos will not answer those Q's

so, any decoys out there that can provide answers to this ? i certainly don't have the background to answer his theoretical Q


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

never considered the concepts and the whys ...

i'm sure it goes way beyond this, but maybe for starters ?

1. we need them to train dogs to bite humans and to test that they will not bite or release bites when given the appropriate command to do so. so actually, decoys are both an extension of training as well as a way to test a dog under near real conditions.
2. the better the decoy the more they are able to react to the dog and bring out its strengths and/or expose its weaknesses
3. poor decoys can break down dogs, teach them bad habits and set back training ... or wreck the dog; physically or mentally

if you already know this, what more is it that are you researching ?


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## Jason Ross (Mar 12, 2012)

Guess I should've added my background so far with this question. Have attended various advanced decoying courses/seminars, am currently learning from some excellent decoys, have attended a decoy camp and the decoy I'm learning ropes from is of Tarheel descent. Am just a beginer to this vast world of the art of decoying, but have learned a lot of the mechanics. I was basically looking for places to learn why and when those mechanics are used. I understand the basics, but often have questions regarding why certain techniques are used with younger/green dogs such as stick work and when to expoit certain drives. There is usually so much going on during club days that theres not enough time to ask all my "why" questions. At this point I enjoy learning how to train younger more than competition work. Thanks for all the responses.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

the whys?

the whys of why a decoys does what he does in training? or in trial?


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## Jason Ross (Mar 12, 2012)

The whys of training. You can watch trialing all day and learn mechanics, but not learn anything about when and why they do certain things. Was looking for info on any videos etc. that explain things.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

that is a rough one. Start working with a good training decoy.

I do like the OLD stuart hilliard CTS Body bite suit video, pretty good for techniques and stuff, but kinda teaches the guys to hide in the suit too, to keep th dog from biting them inside it, that part I dont like, but does teach safety stuff and presentations and some police dogs stuff.

The leerburg tapes I bought most of them, they do teach you stuff for sure, but lots of it is older stuff, still good info there.

Doing the training and reading dogs is really tough to get really good at...a mentor is almost a must. That and wokring LOTS of dogs of various types and temperaments, trial and error a lot too...gotta learn what NOT to do, just as well as learn what TO do...

I dont know any good agitator or training decoy that has NOT made lots of mistakes and or ruined a bunch of dogs along that way..gotta learn what builds them up and breaks them down...and walk that fine line without crossing it too often..


reading dogs is a skill that can be learned but also takes a gift, if that makes sense.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jason Ross said:


> The whys of training. You can watch trialing all day and learn mechanics, but not learn anything about when and why they do certain things. Was looking for info on any videos etc. that explain things.


From what I understand about the new Leerburg Mark Keating DVDs (in process), this would be an important benefit .... helping handlers to better understand decoy work, and maybe recognize or at least ask about possible mistakes as well as grasp why the decoy is doing something with their dog.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

It will help if Mark does most of the splainin instead of Ed ;-)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It will help if Mark does most of the splainin instead of Ed ;-)


 
My favorite Ed Frawley line.."I don't know much about horses, but that's a good working horse."

It was on the beginning to one of his videos. Dutch doing barefoot tracking in a city or something. I watched it a long time ago.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Cannot learn helper/decoy work via media source. Impossible. Apprentice with a helper/trainer/director that has proven his ability to take dogs to where you want to go. Should take about 5-7 years of focused training to get decent.
Passion. You need it. The best of luck!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cho said:


> Cannot learn helper/decoy work via media source. Impossible. Apprentice with a helper/trainer/director that has proven his ability to take dogs to where you want to go. Should take about 5-7 years of focused training to get decent.
> Passion. You need it. The best of luck!


You can't be a decent decoy without getting in a suit but you sure can get a lot of information from DVD's (and even from descriptions on the WDF )

Are you coming to the UDC?


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

No 
I was really trying to go with Steve, but I could not take time off work. With so many trials coming up, my vacation time is eaten up.
Man, I wish you guys the best of luck!


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## Jason Ross (Mar 12, 2012)

On a side note Mark Keating is wearing exact suit color scheme I came up with a year ago. So at least I have that in common


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

All decent decoy/helpers no matter what sport/PPD/PD they train have one common trait, good foot work. Practice your dancing..

Hey Thomas whats up with no practice tracking at the UDC?


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I dont think, you will ever learn the whys and whens and what to do when this happens from a video..... I think even some of the best decoys train as they go. To get that understanding to just work as training goes and changes direction, you need to catch and train lots of dogs. With a good mentor. I also think that you need to make sure you are handling a dog also. You need to just learn dog training in all ways. That is done by training lots of dogs.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Try this link Jason:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f54/french-ring-decoy-q-24604/?highlight=French+Ring+Decoy

"Dances with Dogs" is now on DVD.

Tim


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## Jason Demo (Apr 23, 2013)

You can learn a lot from videos, but you will NEVER learn the proper way without getting in the suit and having hands on training. You have to find a solid experienced decoy to learn from. I can learn the perfect golf swing by watching Tiger Woods highlights, but until I get out there any practice my swing it will never improve.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

The only measure of a decoy (I am talking about a training helper) is the product he helps (helper) produce. 

Nobody in the world saw a video and read a book, and then go to the world championships.

You have to apprentice to be a training helper/decoy.
A trail helper, on the other hand, probably could be done at club level, i suppose, with enough practice.\


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jason Ross said:


> I noticed leerburg is coming out with a decoy video series. Does anyone have suggestions for other any other videos/books regarding the concepts of decoying? I've been trying to learn as much as possible about the subject and am begining to understand the mechanics but I would like to learn more about the whys of decoying.


 IMO, buying a video on how to be a K-9 decoy is like purchasing a karate magazine and now you're a black belt! The only way is to do it and do it with the help of folks who have been there. This is true for anything worth doing AND doing WELL!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Hey Thomas whats up with no practice tracking at the UDC?


There was no practice on the trial sod farm but two designated parks to practice at and dozens of other parks all over Denver.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Herve Mavunga has a video out. The one from leerburg is Mark Keating. That should be the bomb. He is a real good decoy. I want to see the vids.


I hear the first one,"The Mechanics of Working a Dog in a Suit," will be finished this week.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I hear the first one,"The Mechanics of Working a Dog in a Suit," will be finished this week.



Shipping now according to a Leerburg newsletter today 
This has got to be a Leerburg record for fastest time from taping to production to Shipping.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh, I thought it was "pre-order now."

But anyway, it's watchable on the computer now.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, I thought it was "pre-order now."
> 
> But anyway, it's watchable on the computer now.


The email I got at 11:08 said
New Mark Keating DVD Now Shipping


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The email I got at 11:08 said
> New Mark Keating DVD Now Shipping



How can I argue with that! :lol: :lol:


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