# Training Puppies in Social Aggression



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Boy was this an interesting read. http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...opriately-socially-aggressive-716/index3.html


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

never came across that one.

Social aggression to me is one of those terms that is tossed around a lot.

For me, social aggression is a very strong character trait, not something that is a "sort of" thing with a dog, or something that we can "dabble" in, or "tap into". For me it is there, and if it is there, you will know it. Not saying that is the CORRECT view, just how I choose to view it.

It is not very common trait by any means, but it is common is some families and lines of dogs. 

I have owned 2 dogs that I would label socially aggressive dogs. Both were ready to start hurting people by 6-7 months of age, and seemed to mature very quickly, not saying this is the norm, just saying that about those particular dogs.

They were both excellent area guard dog types, and were a very high liability type dog to own, not dogs that should be pets in a busy household with normal people, that are not able to keep those types of dogs safely.. But I loved them both, served me well at the time, when for most of the dogs lives I lived alone. 

With those dogs, it would not matter if you visited me every day, and you were a friend, the dog simply would not really warm up to you , and the few people they did warm up to, were people that spent the night often or moved in with me and that was a long process., to become accepted by the dog, on a limited basis, and were allowed to enter the house, and could interact with the dog more freely. 

One of those dogs would attack the door if someone knocked on it, or attempted to turn the doorknob, if not under some type of control or command. He would often appear to be trying to open the door himself to let himself out there. Had to keep doors locked, and greet each person that came over, and had to have the dog in some sort of placement command to keep him from attacking, and make sure that they did not try to interact with the dog. That was upon entry, he did loosen up some after people had been there a while, but still would easily attack someone, a dog that required the people around him to be conscious of him, and follow a protocol. Great dog for some people and some situations, terrible for most others. That bloodline disappeared quickly in the US, as the trait was dominantly expressed in the genetics of that family of dogs.

I guess to many people there can be varying degrees and expressions of SA, but I have always thought in my head, either it is or it isn't. that is just my opinion though. In both dogs it was evident very early in young puppyhood, at 7-8 weeks of age. Both dogs were what some people would call dominant dogs, both highly territorial.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

What was interesting? Mr Martin did I nice job of describing aggression training...but that seemed pretty basic...pup see suspicious character...barks chases it away...wins. after a few ...character comes in ...pup bites ..handler joins or if pup doesn't engage handler attacks then pup joins in...pack wins...pup never loses.. turns into confident pup...just part of the puzzle of developing your dog.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

That's agitation, except I wouldn't join in with the dog. It's the decoy's job to bring the dog out. Any age is fine as long as the dog always wins.


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## Lisa McKay (Nov 30, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> That's agitation, except I wouldn't join in with the dog. It's the decoy's job to bring the dog out. Any age is fine as long as the dog always wins.


I have a question regarding this comment, should the dog always win even if it doesn't show the right behavior(s)? 

Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but i am curious about how those here feel about this...should the dog always be let to win? or taught HOW to win?

Maybe some examples would help? 

Genuinely curious.


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

Dan Bowman said:


> That's agitation, except I wouldn't join in with the dog. It's the decoy's job to bring the dog out. Any age is fine as long as the dog always wins.


The dog and the handler need to be a team. The dog should feel that the handler helps him win and this creates a bridge for some dogs that don't have the confidence originally to win on their own.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lisa McKay said:


> I have a question regarding this comment, should the dog always win even if it doesn't show the right behavior(s)?
> 
> Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but i am curious about how those here feel about this...should the dog always be let to win? or taught HOW to win?
> 
> ...


yes, please give examples of what you mean.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

It's the decoy's job to bring the dog out, and make it a good experience for the dog ie. let it win. With a young dog a decoy would use the minimum amount of pressure to do it. If the dog doesn't react and therefore doesn't win, it can be attributed to age and postponed. If an adult dog doesn't react and therefore doesn't "win" it can no longer be attributed to age. Pressure is then increased until the dog reacts, if it doesn't react favorably it's not suitable. A dog that would need a handler to join in doesn't have what it takes.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Dan Bowman said:


> It's the decoy's job to bring the dog out, and make it a good experience for the dog ie. let it win. With a young dog a decoy would use the minimum amount of pressure to do it. If the dog doesn't react and therefore doesn't win, it can be attributed to age and postponed. If an adult dog doesn't react and therefore doesn't "win" it can no longer be attributed to age. Pressure is then increased until the dog reacts, if it doesn't react favorably it's not suitable. A dog that would need a handler to join in doesn't have what it takes.



I thought this was about pups....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> I thought this was about pups....


Yeah, this forum has a "secret line" quality to it I'm thinking. Someone says something, the next who says something kinda has something to do with the first but it's about something else too and round it goes.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

> Is it possible to develop ¨triggered¨ strong social aggression in a pup, before 6 months of age, without affecting negatively a dogs self confidence..


I thought I was on topic. 

On an unrelated note, I always wonder what people mean when they say puppy, I've encountered a new level of stupidity in a dog ownership a couple of days ago. I have a new bitch, 2 years old, I have her for 2 weeks now. Walking around the neighborhood I saw someone with a dog new to me, a male rott. It was a man with a woman and a stroller, and the dog. I assumed the dog is not going to be badly behaved, plus mine's a female, so I said hello from across the road and asked "Is your dog friendly?". The guy said "he's just a puppy!" in a tone like how dare I think he wouldn't be friendly. It was dark and I couldn't see the dog clearly, so I thought ok a 10- 12 months old dog, some people stretch "puppy" pretty far. He walked over and his dog came in a little stiff. I told him to loosen the tension in the leash. The dog made a couple of moves like he was going to try and hump her, I thought he looked set in his ways, so I asked "how old is your dog?" The guy said "he's 6". I just looked at him steady, but my expression must've betrayed what I was thinking, so he exclaimed "he's like a puppy". What a dumbass. That's why it's better to avoid such "meetings". I just like rotts and was surprised to see one in my neighborhood.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Lisa McKay said:


> I have a question regarding this comment, should the dog always win even if it doesn't show the right behavior(s)?
> 
> Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but i am curious about how those here feel about this...should the dog always be let to win? or taught HOW to win?
> 
> ...


He barks he wins...He bites he wins...He bites thrashes and pushes in he wins...He takes decoy to the ground he wins...up the ante...I thought it was implied


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## Lisa McKay (Nov 30, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> It's the decoy's job to bring the dog out, and make it a good experience for the dog ie. let it win. With a young dog a decoy would use the minimum amount of pressure to do it. If the dog doesn't react and therefore doesn't win, it can be attributed to age and postponed. If an adult dog doesn't react and therefore doesn't "win" it can no longer be attributed to age. Pressure is then increased until the dog reacts, if it doesn't react favorably it's not suitable. A dog that would need a handler to join in doesn't have what it takes.


Thanks, maybe I should have worded my question a little differently..how about this...instead of the pup/dog or whatever "not winning" when they fail to show the correct behavior, what about handing them an actual loss? I guess what I am saying is that maybe sometimes there is some value in that as well?


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## Lisa McKay (Nov 30, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> He barks he wins...He bites he wins...He bites thrashes and pushes in he wins...He takes decoy to the ground he wins...up the ante...I thought it was implied


Yes, I get that. I think my question may have not been worded the best, sorry about that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lisa, please give example of what you mean exactly...even if you have to just make up a hypothetical scenario.

still not clear what you mean. but thinking I might.

would still like to hear what you are thinking in terms of.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Lisa M asked - 

I have a question regarding this comment, should the dog always win even if it doesn't show the right behavior(s)? 

Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but i am curious about how those here feel about this...should the dog always be let to win? or taught HOW to win?

Maybe some examples would help? 

Genuinely curious. 


Hi Lisa,

If it was at our training sessions, it would be no. 

A mature/sleeve ready dog for sure should not be allowed to win easily or for performing incorrectly. 

With pups we don’t ask as much from them (because they are pups!) so they should be able to win more easily. It is at this stage where we would begin to teach the pup the rules on how to fight in the manner we choose (biting hard and pulling) and win before ever seeing the helper. 

Example: If you allow your dog to win on a thrash, when you want them to pull then that will only muddy the waters for the dog if you let them win on any head shaking. Training should be consistent and the dog should only win when it shows the desired behaviour. In training we strive towards that “perfect picture” because in trial most likely we won’t obtain it. 

Backchaining exercises and breaking them down into smaller pieces will help keep things more clear and be easier to teach the dog what you want.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Lisa M asked - 

I have a question regarding this comment, should the dog always win even if it doesn't show the right behavior(s)? 

Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but i am curious about how those here feel about this...should the dog always be let to win? or taught HOW to win?

Maybe some examples would help? 

Genuinely curious. 


Hi Lisa,

If it was at our training sessions, it would be no. 

A mature/sleeve ready dog should not be allowed to win easily or for performing incorrectly. 

With pups we don’t ask as much from them (because they are pups!) so they should be able to win more easily. It is at this stage where we would begin to teach the pup the rules on how to fight in the manner we choose (biting hard and pulling) and win before ever seeing the helper. 

Example: If you allow your dog to win on a thrash, when you want them to pull then that will only muddy the waters for the dog if you let them win on any head shaking. Training should be consistent and the dog should only win when it shows the desired behaviour. In training we strive towards that “perfect picture” because in trial most likely we won’t obtain it. 

Backchaining exercises and breaking them down into smaller pieces will help keep things more clear and be easier to teach the dog what you want.


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