# Working cane corso breeders



## wesley stephens

i will be looking to get a working corso within the next year or so what are some breeders you recommend?


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## Gillian Schuler

Hi Wesley

I cannot recommend any Cane Corso breeders in the States as I come from Switzerland.

One of the Molosser breeds that I can suggest îs the Fila Brasileiro, a dog that is very obedient to its owners but reluctant to allow strangers over the premises.

The Cane Corso is known as a quiet breed but I have never heard of its prowess in circles as "Protection dog".

I urge you to look around more before you set your sights on a dog that will protect your property.

As for *Working Cane Corsos, *I would be inerested to know of such - my husband is squinting in this direction!! But I would always prefer a Fila Brasileiro.


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## james mackey

wesley stephens said:


> i will be looking to get a working corso within the next year or so what are some breeders you recommend?



http://www.amorecanecorsos.com/

very nice working lines from David Kuneman.......


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## dewon fields

http://elmesquitalcanecorso.com/ I'm not a fan of big dogs; however these dogs had the drive to get the job done. They were also smaller, and not the colossal type. I've personal seen not 1 or 2, but 5 dogs from this kennel work. They all had the "Want to" attitude.


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## rick smith

hi again...
you recently wrote : "i currently have a presa canario that is going through obedience and looking forward to PP or American street ring not completely sure yet. something based on rel life scenario."

since that dog appears to be just starting out, why do you now want to get a different breed and specifically why a CC, if the dog you have now is not finished ?

sorry to answer a Q with Q's, but you have had quite a few in a lot of different areas and i'm the type that likes to know where a person is coming from and what their goal is before i answer a Q posed without any context, 
... as in what is the best caliber for a home defense handgun ??


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## drew sterner

dream team kennels. Ish has some really nice working dogs. Specifically a male named trotter, the dog has drive and endurance for days. He also has a very serious female named zora around that i have seen both worked first hand. He is currently training for his sch 1 with trotter. I dont like corsos, and i would feed that dog.

edit: in addition ish is a super nice guy to deal with.


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## Mike Seymour

http://www.wasatchmtcorsos.com/ 

http://www.amorecanecorsos.com/index.html 

http://dreamteamkennels.tripod.com/index.html 

http://kennelbyonics.com/ 

http://www.masterk9rus.com/Home.htm


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## Angie Stark

drew sterner said:


> dream team kennels. Ish has some really nice working dogs. Specifically a male named trotter, the dog has drive and endurance for days. He also has a very serious female named zora around that i have seen both worked first hand. He is currently training for his sch 1 with trotter. I dont like corsos, and i would feed that dog.
> 
> edit: in addition ish is a super nice guy to deal with.


Dreamteam would be the LAST place Id send someone for a working dog.

El Mesquital in MX
Rivale in NY
Dei L'Onda in OH
are a few that are worth checking out


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## wesley stephens

to Rick Smith; its my wife's dog more say shes training and i would want a corso for myself to train. i say its mine because i feed them. whats hers is mine whats mine is hers. when its her way lol


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## wesley stephens

ive been looking and speekng with dei la'onda, el mesquital, dallas k9. rivale i cant find out how to enter there site


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## rick smith

Wesley...
i can only comment on what i read 
so i'll expand on what i was trying to get across ... :roll:

your avatar says ..."currently deployed" 
sounds like active military ..... which means the wife will own BOTH dogs and have to train both whenever you are deployed, as well as feed them
- i live near a navy base and work with MANY families where part of the family "is deployed" and that makes for some difficult training situations for who's responsible for the dogs 
- my Q still remains ... why switch breeds and get another dog until the one you (or your wife) have is trained ? two untrained big guardian breeds, trying to do something that is not what they were primarily bred for, is often more than twice as hard to be successful at, imo 
....regardless of how great the breeder is

- i have LOTS of people who ask me for advice on getting another dog and my answer is usually the same .... "the dog you have now doesn't get enuff work and attention so why would you think you could handle another one ?????"

too many people have too many dogs and it's the dogs that usually suffer
---hopefully you guys are different and have plenty of time and money, 

but often people tend to get selfish and develop a "more is better" attitude

this is my opinion( and pet peeve) of course, but it IS based on actual experience 

good luck, i'm sure you can find a good breeder ... if you know how to select one


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## wesley stephens

im just doing alot of research now i wouldn't get another dog till (1) move back to texas dec of 2013 (2) i buy my house in dallas area 2015 (3) i retire from the army. just plan on doing extensive resarch now so if do decide to get some thing else i would already have researched it. So it would possibly be my project from bordem of getting reitreing from the army. just would like a good plan just in case so i ask the questions. like car shopping.


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## rick smith

re: "i will be looking to get a working corso within the next year"

like i said b4 i'm no mind reader 
.... to me that didn't imply shopping around for a couple years until you retire and buy a house //lol//

i still say you and the wife should concentrate on the dog you have now and get it trained for what you have indicated and THEN see what might be doable a few years down the road ... in the new house //lol//
... might even be more breeders available then
... plus i haven't found too many breeders that will deal much with a customer that is a few years away from buying a dog ... but that is also just my experience ... maybe the corso breeders mentioned in this thread are different


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## Lee May

If you can handle them look for a SA Boerboel, they beat Canes hands down. Ability, agility, Biddability.


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## Joby Becker

DO NOT get a Corso or any other dog of that nature, while you have your presa, UNLESS you have the ability to keep them separated IF you need to..

advice.. take it or leave it...

where is your presa from? pedigree?


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## drew sterner

Angie Stark said:


> Dreamteam would be the LAST place Id send someone for a working dog.
> 
> El Mesquital in MX
> Rivale in NY
> Dei L'Onda in OH
> are a few that are worth checking out



Why? I have personally seen and taken bites from the two dogs listed, and they are very nice working dogs. I cant speak for the rest of what he has. Explain.


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## Dave Colborn

wesley stephens said:


> im just doing alot of research now i wouldn't get another dog till (1) move back to texas dec of 2013 (2) i buy my house in dallas area 2015 (3) i retire from the army. just plan on doing extensive resarch now so if do decide to get some thing else i would already have researched it. So it would possibly be my project from bordem of getting reitreing from the army. just would like a good plan just in case so i ask the questions. like car shopping.


Wesley, you are in a good position then. Don't research (much) here or over the phone. List out the tasks you want the dog to be able to do, then start going to a club or events that have the requirements in their standards, so you can see what your new dog will have to do to meet YOUR standards. You will find with dogs and training, everyone has an opinion, and it may not meet up with your own. Therefore, you need to be educated better than the person selling the dog.

When I explain some of the testing done for detector dogs, to people with pets and explain I use a list, so as not to miss much. I always get odd looks when I ask them what is on their list of standards for a pet. 

Proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance.

Also, there are a few very good dog people in the Dallas area, on this board, that you could probably hit up to come watch training.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Another bit of food for thought... why a corso, cos you like the breed? Maybe get some experience behind your belt first training in the sport of your choice, see how your current dog does, get a good feel of what the strengths and weaknesses are, see what the other dogs in the sport are like. You will find that your opinion on what you want in your next dog can change completely after just a few months of getting actual hands on experience of training for some thing. You might still want a corso or some other molosser, or may decide you want some thing completely different. 
Kinda like, don't get married at 16 cos you think you know exactly what you want... just sayin'


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## Angie Stark

drew sterner said:


> Why? I have personally seen and taken bites from the two dogs listed, and they are very nice working dogs. I cant speak for the rest of what he has. Explain.


Because I have seen the type of shenanigans he pulls and it appears to me he is nothing but a puppy mill. I know of people who have been shafted by him. How old is Trotter? Hasnt he been in training for a SCH I for like 3 years? They have never produced a dog that has accomplished anything to my knowledge.

Wesley, Tai Nero on facebook. I suggested friends for you. Be patient with him answering tho because he lives in NY hit by the hurricane


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## drew sterner

Angie Stark said:


> Because I have seen the type of shenanigans he pulls and it appears to me he is nothing but a puppy mill. I know of people who have been shafted by him. How old is Trotter? Hasnt he been in training for a SCH I for like 3 years? They have never produced a dog that has accomplished anything to my knowledge.
> 
> Wesley, Tai Nero on facebook. I suggested friends for you. Be patient with him answering tho because he lives in NY hit by the hurricane


Im not trying to argue, but you are being very vague in your answers, specifically what shenanigans are you talking about. If you are willing to smear his name give legit events that made you feel this way. 

I dont know how old trotter is, and i couldnt comment on how long he has been training, but i am telling you from personal FIRST HAND actual experience that is a very nice dog. 

You should be careful when bashing someone and using words like "appears" and phrases like "i know of"


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## Angie Stark

drew sterner said:


> Im not trying to argue, but you are being very vague in your answers, specifically what shenanigans are you talking about. If you are willing to smear his name give legit events that made you feel this way.
> 
> I dont know how old trotter is, and i couldnt comment on how long he has been training, but i am telling you from personal FIRST HAND actual experience that is a very nice dog.
> 
> You should be careful when bashing someone and using words like "appears" and phrases like "i know of"


Thanks for the "tip" on what I need to be careful of. I won't use other people's names and was giving them a chance to see this and tell the story their self. 

I don't know you or your experience with dogs but I know people who I am confident in their working dog knowledge and they have had dogs from dream team come to training and none ever make it. I also know that his accolades page is full of titles he gave them himself and cheated SACCI club members and other entrants out of by judging his own dogs and placing them first. 

Your opinion was that the op should try them. My opinion is they should steer clear. Why is your opinion better? Op didn't specify he only wanted sugar coated replies. 

The fact is that a person should take in all info given then check into it further on their own and make their own decision based on their diligent research.


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## drew sterner

Angie Stark said:


> Thanks for the "tip" on what I need to be careful of. I won't use other people's names and was giving them a chance to see this and tell the story their self.
> 
> I don't know you or your experience with dogs but I know people who I am confident in their working dog knowledge and they have had dogs from dream team come to training and none ever make it. I also know that his accolades page is full of titles he gave them himself and cheated SACCI club members and other entrants out of by judging his own dogs and placing them first.
> 
> Your opinion was that the op should try them. My opinion is they should steer clear. Why is your opinion better? Op didn't specify he only wanted sugar coated replies.
> 
> The fact is that a person should take in all info given then check into it further on their own and make their own decision based on their diligent research.



you are a pro internet fighter let me tell ya. twisting words and making it seem like i am saying things that i did not. 

-did i say my opinion was better? i was asking you as the person bad mouthing that kennel to give an example why. You _finally_ have. Apparently whatever dogs showed up did not make the cut. Were they out of the two dogs i mentioned?

-I dont know about the titles mentioned above so it may be true, again examples that i was asking for.

-i said i recommended dream team kennels based on the two dogs that he has which are nice working dogs from different aspects. Also on the basis that ish has always been a nice person to be around. Thats all. 

-all i wanted was an explanation for the negative press you were generously spreading around. You have gotten very defensive which makes me question the validity of your stories. Although, like i said previously, I am not disputing your claims because i dont have personal knowledge of those events. 

and you are are welcome for the tip, that one is free the next one will cost you.



just sayin.


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## Angie Stark

drew sterner said:


> you are a pro internet fighter let me tell ya. twisting words and making it seem like i am saying things that i did not.
> 
> -did i say my opinion was better? i was asking you as the person bad mouthing that kennel to give an example why. You _finally_ have. Apparently whatever dogs showed up did not make the cut. Were they out of the two dogs i mentioned?
> 
> -I dont know about the titles mentioned above so it may be true, again examples that i was asking for.
> 
> -i said i recommended dream team kennels based on the two dogs that he has which are nice working dogs from different aspects. Also on the basis that ish has always been a nice person to be around. Thats all.
> 
> -all i wanted was an explanation for the negative press you were generously spreading around. You have gotten very defensive which makes me question the validity of your stories. Although, like i said previously, I am not disputing your claims because i dont have personal knowledge of those events.
> 
> and you are are welcome for the tip, that one is free the next one will cost you.
> 
> 
> 
> just sayin.


Sprry for the late response, I was at PSA Nationals with my Cane Corso.

Nope not a pro at anything, except telling the truth. Assume what you like, it's of no consequence to me. I will apologize tho, it seemed to me as if you were jumpin on me.


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## Tiffany Damm

Tai Nero, if I was to get another.... I recently put one down (not of tais) and have no plans at this point for another. so you want to be sure you are dealing with a breeder who is testing the litter for working ability not that they are just you know pretty.... I have a bitch that shows good drive. 
and I can back everything Angie has said....


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## Joby Becker

one of the hardest, most crushing bites I took was from a Corso..

dog was a training client of Walter Ward and Mr. K9 I think over the years, but not 100% on that...

dog was from Boondockdogs....name was Ranger...not sure if he was "working" lines or not, and not even sure if WORKING means much in the Corso world...not sure about "drives" either, but I would never want to fight this dog without equipment personally.

all I can say was this dog bites harder than hell under all types of stress, and has taked home many awards from several PP shows....










pic is too big I know...











dog is featured in this promo...the grey corso. like I said dog bites harder than 99% of dogs I have taken bites from...that includes some very hard biting dogs from various breeds..Endor..Rotties,GSD's. etc etc///
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if5QA-rTxOQ


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## Sonny Black

drew sterner said:


> Im not trying to argue, but you are being very vague in your answers, specifically what shenanigans are you talking about. If you are willing to smear his name give legit events that made you feel this way.
> 
> I dont know how old trotter is, and i couldnt comment on how long he has been training, but i am telling you from personal FIRST HAND actual experience that is a very nice dog.
> 
> You should be careful when bashing someone and using words like "appears" and phrases like "i know of"


Before i purchased my working corso pup i was looking at dream team kennels. Spoke to dream team and they were nice, coo,l and very informative. They had nothing off of Trotter at the time.

I started my research and got in contact with a friend of a friend that competes. He said the Trotter was good and he left it at that. He never spoke about the owner even when i asked. 

Talked to 3 other guys and all pretty much said the same thing...if I decided to purchase from dream team, be sure to get my paper work (registration papers) at the time of purchase or I may never get it. One actually showed proof of his issue with dream team. 

Funny thing is 2 of them thought i was related to or sent by dream team to purchase from them because I'm from one of the areas he lived.


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## Alison Grubb

I saw two working Cane Corsos in ATL a few years ago. My buddy trained with them, though he owns GSDs himself. If you want I will get the info on them for you.


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## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Dream Team*

Ish says he's a PSA member and decoy
and 
A Certified K9 Pro Sports Judge
and
A judge, decoy for the Working Cane Corso Working club (that he founded?)
and
The President and Founder of The Working Dog Federation (Not to be confused with the American Working Dog Federation )
If that's not enough to convince you? He's also a AKC CGC evaluator AND a "Certified Pet Food Adviser"

When ever I want to evaluate a kennel the first thing I look for is the owner a "Certified Pet Food Adviser" LMAO


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## Amber Scott Dyer

not that I know much about corsos, but it seems that the best ones I've seen have been slightly smaller ones (pretty massive compared to mals, but still.)

I think it's harder to find a good working puppy when most of the buyers looking are concerned so much with having a giant dog. A 110lb male is still going to be huge but will be a lot faster and more agile than a 150 pounder. 

http://youtu.be/q2xJUI7oSFk

a vid I took a few years ago of Amore's Xander (he's one of the best I've seen, drivey and really environmentally stable.)


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## Jerry Lyda

That's Jay Lyda decoying. David has nice dogs.


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## Dan Bowman

Lee May said:


> If you can handle them look for a SA Boerboel, they beat Canes hands down. Ability, agility, Biddability.


I owned a female Boerboel once. She didn't show a lot of promise as a protection dog, I rehomed at at about 8 months of age, but biddability was off the chart which surprised me. It wasn't like with a herder. She tested me once at about 3 months old and I put her in her place. After that the dog required no formal training, I'd show her something a couple of times, then I could get her to do everything I needed just by modulating my voice. I'd love to see that in a dog again.


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## Angie Stark

*Re: Dream Team*

From the list I saw, he was never a fully certified PSA decoy...he was certifed at one time only to do car jacking scenario and to my knowledge, not even that anymore. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> Ish says he's a PSA member and decoy
> 
> When ever I want to evaluate a kennel the first thing I look for is the owner a "Certified Pet Food Adviser" LMAO


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## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Dream Team*



Angie Stark said:


> From the list I saw, he was never a fully certified PSA decoy...he was certifed at one time only to do car jacking scenario and to my knowledge, not even that anymore.


I'm not surprised. His list of "accomplishments" was creative to be kind.
What's going on with SACCI? Is Ish a member anymore?


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## Angie Stark

*Re: Dream Team*



Thomas Barriano said:


> What's going on with SACCI? Is Ish a member anymore?


I have no idea. I dont deal with SACCI


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## Matt Grosch

Just remember, if you get a CC or any bandog or other exotic breed, you are doing it for form over function, and they are clearly inferior to a good shepherd (and probably rottie). It took me a lot of time and money to learn this..........damn those carl semencic books...


If you care about novelty then go for it and good luck, but some people arent lucky enough to make an informed choice. When it comes to guns, martial arts, vehicles, and dogs, look at legit people use, and if you want results, emulate them.


No one legit bets their life on a bandog and a taurus judge, and if you chose those, you are sacrificing safety and results for novelty and appearance.


(exotic isnt mainstream because its a well kept secret, its probably rare because it sucks)


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## drew sterner

Matt Grosch said:


> Just remember, if you get a CC or any bandog or other exotic breed, you are doing it for form over function, and they are clearly inferior to a good shepherd (and probably rottie). It took me a lot of time and money to learn this..........damn those carl semencic books...
> 
> 
> If you care about novelty then go for it and good luck, but some people arent lucky enough to make an informed choice. When it comes to guns, martial arts, vehicles, and dogs, look at legit people use, and if you want results, emulate them.
> 
> 
> No one legit bets their life on a bandog and a taurus judge, and if you chose those, you are sacrificing safety and results for novelty and appearance.
> 
> 
> (exotic isnt mainstream because its a well kept secret, its probably rare because it sucks)



ha ha this amuses me, although, i havent seen a whole lot of rotties lately that are impressing me. well said.


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## Michael Joubert

I don't know, I enjoy working with off breeds. I have a few good ones, I have also fed my share of pot lickers.


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## Michael Joubert

If I were looking for a working Corso, I would contact Mitch @ kennelbionics (spelling maybe off).


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## Angie Stark

Michael Joubert said:


> If I were looking for a working Corso, I would contact Mitch @ kennelbionics (spelling maybe off).


If MMitch is breeding hed be one to check out for sure. I dont know him or his dogs personally but Ive seen some pretty darn athletic photos of them.


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## Joby Becker

Matt....
depends on what you mean by legit..

lots of people here and especially in other countries, with dogs that would probably kill someone if allowed to, probably think there dogs are good enough to depend on for protection.

not gonna be dogs that impress us on the field, or dogs that any sane decoy would want to work on a regular basis, but dogs that would certainly seriously mess some people up or kill them...

what did you mean by legit? you mean legit traditional style working dog trainers? or people that legitimately depend on thier dogs for protection.

I have worked lots of off breed dogs that I would never ever want to encounter without a suit on, and many that I did not like to work even in a suit, not because the less than ideal biting if judged by most standards, but because they were seriously trying to fukk me up, and working them was always a dangerous thing to do...


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## Ron Ackerman

Excellent reply Joby. I totally agree with you.


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## Matt Grosch

Legit meaning bandogs that look scary and have an intimidating bark but cower behind their handler when pressure it put on them. That would be like someone buying a gun for home defense they have been told is the ultimate but it doesnt fire when you pull the trigger.

Or their might be a tough kungku/karate guy, but odds are against it (vs a wrestler/boxer/MMA guy)

Sure some of them are legit, but the odds are against you, so of course no one serious would take the bad gamble.

And if someone was inclined to fight dogs, would they waste their time with a bandog over a pitbull? If they wanted a hunting dog wouldnt they get a real hunting dog?

(wish someone would have told me this 10 years ago)

*I think there was a long thread a year or so ago by Joby about off breeds




Joby Becker said:


> Matt....
> depends on what you mean by legit..
> 
> lots of people here and especially in other countries, with dogs that would probably kill someone if allowed to, probably think there dogs are good enough to depend on for protection.
> 
> not gonna be dogs that impress us on the field, or dogs that any sane decoy would want to work on a regular basis, but dogs that would certainly seriously mess some people up or kill them...
> 
> what did you mean by legit? you mean legit traditional style working dog trainers? or people that legitimately depend on thier dogs for protection.
> 
> I have worked lots of off breed dogs that I would never ever want to encounter without a suit on, and many that I did not like to work even in a suit, not because the less than ideal biting if judged by most standards, but because they were seriously trying to fukk me up, and working them was always a dangerous thing to do...


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## Matt Grosch

And now made another thread?

:smile:


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## Alison Grubb

I think that there are good off breed dogs out there, but you do need to be willing to sort through the shit. It's taken me years to end up with 2 ABs that I feel are worth keeping around and I've rehomed a number of Pit Bulls and ABs in that process.

That said, I've also moved Mals along that had nerve issues.


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## Joby Becker

there are pockets of breeders and families of dogs in many offbreeds that are tightly bred, and produce some fairly consistent character traits.

I agree that the trouble is finding them, if you are not aware of them to begin with, and that many of those types of dogs might not be the best choice for a family pet for the average idiot as a handler.


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## Matt Grosch

Joby Becker said:


> there are pockets of breeders and families of dogs in many offbreeds that are tightly bred, and produce some fairly consistent character traits.
> 
> I agree that the trouble is finding them, if you are not aware of them to begin with, and that many of those types of dogs might not be the best choice for a family pet for the average idiot as a handler.



I somewhat agree, years back I was in close contact with red star kennel, lucero and stock, all the main AB people, had pups lined up from all of them before I decided it wasnt my best bet......

but even if you take the best cane corso, boerboel, presa, etc breeding, what are your chances of getting a good dog that will work compared to your chance from a great KNPV breeding?


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## drew sterner

there is a reason you see the same "type" of dog being used for sport work and real life application as a whole across the world. And its not a bulldog/mastiff type dog.


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## mark tanaka

LoL there are alot of reasons those dogs arent used AS MUCH... and it honestly has nothing to do with the fact you cant find a good "off" breed..... there are plenty of old tymers that have been breeding hard working stock for longer than some of those KNPV lines but most people have no idea about them and thats the way they like it....BTW Sarrplananic are still used in Russia. Great Danes, boxers, and rottweilers in germany and ive seen a few APBTs, Ab's, and Rotties here in the states.... not that you cant find one but most people like to take the easy road while others dare to be different or simply dont like the "herder"


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## drew sterner

mark tanaka said:


> LoL there are alot of reasons those dogs arent used AS MUCH... and it honestly has nothing to do with the fact you cant find a good "off" breed..... there are plenty of old tymers that have been breeding hard working stock for longer than some of those KNPV lines but most people have no idea about them and thats the way they like it....BTW Sarrplananic are still used in Russia. Great Danes, boxers, and rottweilers in germany and ive seen a few APBTs, Ab's, and Rotties here in the states.... not that you cant find one but most people like to take the easy road while others dare to be different or simply dont like the "herder"


i said as a whole, implying there are exceptions. It takes way too much time and money to washout the many many numerous "off breeds" to use for departments. Old tymers eh? Sounds like a few tales ive heard from some of the off breed people to pump themselves up about the breeds shortcomings. Did you know unicorns exist as well. I swear.


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## Matt Grosch

mark tanaka said:


> LoL there are alot of reasons those dogs arent used AS MUCH... and it honestly has nothing to do with the fact you cant find a good "off" breed..... there are plenty of old tymers that have been breeding hard working stock for longer than some of those KNPV lines but most people have no idea about them and thats the way they like it....BTW Sarrplananic are still used in Russia. Great Danes, boxers, and rottweilers in germany and ive seen a few APBTs, Ab's, and Rotties here in the states.... not that you cant find one but most people like to take the easy road while others dare to be different or simply dont like the "herder"




the myth of the secretive old guy with these incredible dogs hidden away on his farm somewhere is just that


if it was suggested that there were dogs better at fighting than a well bred pit bull, everyone would laugh, yet when bitework comes up, some people still believe


kinda like thinking some rex-kwan-do guy in his garage with made up stories is a better place to learn to fight than the closest MMA school that has actual champions


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## Dave Colborn

mark tanaka said:


> LoL there are alot of reasons those dogs arent used AS MUCH... and it honestly has nothing to do with the fact you cant find a good "off" breed..... there are plenty of old tymers that have been breeding hard working stock for longer than some of those KNPV lines but most people have no idea about them and thats the way they like it....BTW Sarrplananic are still used in Russia. Great Danes, boxers, and rottweilers in germany and ive seen a few APBTs, Ab's, and Rotties here in the states.... not that you cant find one but most people like to take the easy road while others dare to be different or simply dont like the "herder"


It has a lot to do with not being able to find them. The working gene pool in the breeds you mention is much smaller than herders.. Then it goes on to finding a trainer with the skill to train them as they may be different in training compared to a herder. Old hard "working" stock aren't usually working on biting men, on a competetive basis, and used regularly for police work, therefore they don't have what KNPV dogs have been bred for since the early 1900s.

A good dog, is a good dog, though, and I love my boxer and the way he works. I can attribute any success with my boxer from having an open mind about breeds and a good training background with herders. Knowing what a KNPV dog looks and feels like firsthand gives me good comparison when working off breeds.


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## Thomas Barriano

Matt Grosch said:


> the myth of the secretive old guy with these incredible dogs hidden away on his farm somewhere is just that


Matt,

It"s not a myth when the guy trained dogs for the SS during WW II and is named Gunther.


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## mark tanaka

Wow a lot of you guys are assholes huh? Well look up Manson family or donovan pinchers and there are some down right ruthless presa out of Harijans and iron bull... And those are just some of the ones with titles running in there peds... Now I see why they don't post here....and I was warned by a mentor I shall head his warning better next time...


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## Thomas Barriano

Mark, 

The reason a lot of the alternate breed and bandogge breeders don't post on the WDF is there are too many experienced trainers and breeders here. They can't get away with the BS and hype that the noob's are willing to swallow. Enjoy your dog and your training and get a little more experience under your belt before you starting calling people "ass holes" based on what other people tell you. Just sayin ;-)


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## Dave Colborn

mark tanaka said:


> Wow a lot of you guys are assholes huh? Well look up Manson family or donovan pinchers and there are some down right ruthless presa out of Harijans and iron bull... And those are just some of the ones with titles running in there peds... Now I see why they don't post here....and I was warned by a mentor I shall head his warning better next time...


 
Since you didn't heed your mentor, try and talk it out, buddy. There are assholes everywhere, just a fact of life. 

I personally am not saying there aren't good dogs in every breed. I am saying they can be found more readily in herders for sport and police work. What you have to realize is that people here are using work (police and sport I think more than hog hunting) as a judge of the dogs. Until you can show the volume of non-herders that make it to the podium or do police work, then you just have to understand that a great deal of the statements made about the majority of non-herders are true based on sport and police work. 

I think in a lot of cases a good (suitable) bully breed or a defensive herder is better for home protection than a sport dog herder. The fact is though, most of the ones I think that would be a good dog for that wouldn't be the best bet as a sport dog. Working sport vs. home protection is similar to the arguement about show dogs vs. working dogs. The test or evaluation of the dog usually doesn't reflect what you are actually testing or trying to find out. You have to look for what you want in a dog and be happy with it. If the dog can whack someone good in the house and not terribly well on a sport field, keep him in the house for protection. The problem I have with personal protection dog folks are claims that their dogs will just "do the job" with no way to judge how their dog will do other than their opinion. Doesn't mean it isn't true, it's just harder to prove and less believeable for me. I have seen dogs that won't bite in houses that people thought would, and vice versa. I rely on my eyesight and things from people I trust. I have heard and seen too many lies over my life not to be that way.


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## rick smith

Thomas...you mean like this ??

... here's one breed description :

Welcome to the exciting new world of Donovan's Pinscher! Never before in the history of the United States has there been an attempt to produce a true utilitarian K-9......a K-9 not only competitive with it's inspirational European predecessors......but uniquely superior to them in several ways......after many years of breeding classic working dogs: EX: German Shepherds, Belgian Malinois, Rottweillers, Doberman Pinschers, Dutch Shepherds......and enjoying many successes with various breeds..... a working dog superior to all who have come before him....a dog of unique and varied talents......the tenacity of the fighting dog......the power of the Molosser......the trainability of the Herder......speed, power, durability and talent......a dog that could run, jump, climb and swim.....a dog that could wrestle and twist like the great fighting dogs that we have had the privilege to encounter......a dog with a quick mind and reflex......who would retrieve naturally on land or in water......a dog who had great responses to it's handler, quick to learn and extremely eager......a dog of power......in mind and body......ferocious when challenged and formidable to behold......a dog which could perform equally well in organized dog sports......or life and death confrontation......a dog that could stop your heart with it's grace and passion......or stop an intruder with explosive action......a turbo charged, fearless protector......with clownish sociability......who could out-do most any dog at any task......trick......or trade......The American Built Super Dog......Engineered to meet the increasing demands......of a changing world..........

it would be hard to top that hype 
.... and it's made in the good ole USofA !!!


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## rick smith

and for some reason it kinda sounded like a ******* describing his ford pick up ......


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Thomas...you mean like this ??
> 
> ... here's one breed description :
> 
> Welcome to the exciting new world of Donovan's Pinscher! *Never before in the history of the United States has there been an attempt to produce a true utilitarian K-9*......a K-9 not only competitive with it's inspirational European predecessors......but uniquely superior to them in several ways......after many years of breeding classic working dogs: EX: German Shepherds, Belgian Malinois, Rottweillers, Doberman Pinschers, Dutch Shepherds......and enjoying many successes with various breeds..... a working dog superior to all who have come before him....a dog of unique and varied talents......the tenacity of the fighting dog......the power of the Molosser......the trainability of the Herder......speed, power, durability and talent......a dog that could run, jump, climb and swim.....a dog that could wrestle and twist like the great fighting dogs that we have had the privilege to encounter......a dog with a quick mind and reflex......who would retrieve naturally on land or in water......a dog who had great responses to it's handler, quick to learn and extremely eager......a dog of power......in mind and body......ferocious when challenged and formidable to behold......a dog which could perform equally well in organized dog sports......or life and death confrontation......a dog that could stop your heart with it's grace and passion......or stop an intruder with explosive action......a turbo charged, fearless protector......with clownish sociability......who could out-do most any dog at any task......trick......or trade......The American Built Super Dog......Engineered to meet the increasing demands......of a changing world..........
> 
> *it would be hard to top that hype
> *.... and it's made in the good ole USofA !!!


Dom is a very colorful guy, there is definitely a huge degree of hype, that turns people off from him, me included at times....but I really cannot think of any other types of American Made breed types that have had the amount of success he had. the keep word in the above is *"attempt"*

If you got a good Donovan Pinscher, you got a good dog. 
He might have an ego the size of Mt, Everest, but he certainly has a passion for his project, knows what he is doing, and has produced some pretty impressive animals...


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## mark tanaka

Well his dogs work and do so well and have proven themselves in different venues multiple times I was more than willing to talk about this I'm fine with learning and being wrong but a lot of what was said was juvenile, period and i expected more (probably shouldnt have) from such "experienced" people...i was a Marine Ive seen assholes but expected more here...I'm sure you guys have very nice dogs that's fine but to say herders are the only dogs worth there salt is ridiculous.... And there are a lot of people that breed for personal protection/ hog dogs and the dogs excel at both....I guess the best you can do is look up mansons kimbo or Donovan's scratch ... But most of you have more thn made up your mind already.... BTW speed of maturity #1 reason herders are chosen over other breeds for police work


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## Robley Smith

There are indeed a lot of experienced trainers and handlers here, but there is also a healthy dose of breed bias. Breed bias is that is clearly supported by facts, but in perhaps greater quantity than warranted?


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## Joby Becker

mark tanaka said:


> Well his dogs work and do so well and have proven themselves in different venues multiple times I was more than willing to talk about this I'm fine with learning and being wrong but a lot of what was said was juvenile, period and i expected more (probably shouldnt have) from such "experienced" people...i was a Marine Ive seen assholes but expected more here...I'm sure you guys have very nice dogs that's fine but to say herders are the only dogs worth there salt is ridiculous.... And there are a lot of people that breed for personal protection/ hog dogs and the dogs excel at both....I guess the best you can do is look up mansons kimbo or Donovan's scratch ... But most of you have more thn made up your mind already.... *BTW speed of maturity #1 reason herders are chosen over other breeds for police work*


where did you get this information from?

Speed of maturity is ONE reason for sure, but not the #1 reason I don't think...


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## Dave Colborn

Robley Smith said:


> There are indeed a lot of experienced trainers and handlers here, but there is also a healthy dose of breed bias. Breed bias is that is clearly supported by facts, but in perhaps greater quantity than warranted?


+1


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## Thomas Barriano

Donovan Pinschers are more hype then accomplishment, unfortunately. The two most successful were Mr Foxx and Chris Carrs Frankie (who was actually half American Bull Dog)
How many DP's has Donovan produced and what percentage are titled? Especially titled at the upper levels IPO, French or Mondio Ring or PSA III? One does OK at a Regional Schutzhund trial and Dom is still talking about it 6 years later.



Joby Becker said:


> Dom is a very colorful guy, there is definitely a huge degree of hype, that turns people off from him, me included at times....but I really cannot think of any other types of American Made breed types that have had the amount of success he had. the keep word in the above is *"attempt"*
> 
> If you got a good Donovan Pinscher, you got a good dog.
> He might have an ego the size of Mt, Everest, but he certainly has a passion for his project, knows what he is doing, and has produced some pretty impressive animals...


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Donovan Pinschers are more hype then accomplishment, unfortunately. The two most successful were Mr Foxx and Chris Carrs Frankie (who was actually half American Bull Dog)
> How many DP's has Donovan produced and what percentage are titled? Especially titled at the upper levels IPO, French or Mondio Ring or PSA III? One does OK at a Regional Schutzhund trial and Dom is still talking about it 6 years later.


I was just about to add, besides the AB and the APBT ....

Thomas, when I was talking about success, I was not talking about success in titling in sports...I was talking about producing good dogs.

who said this?

"As far as new breeds. I think the DP is 10x better then any bandogge I've seen. "Almost" as good as Donovan thinks they are  )


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## Joby Becker

Robley Smith said:


> There are indeed a lot of experienced trainers and handlers here, but there is also a healthy dose of breed bias. Breed bias is that is clearly supported by facts, but in perhaps greater quantity than warranted?


+2


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## Michael Joubert

It doesn't matter what breed it is there is always a certain amount of romanticized history that goes along with it. 

There will always be those that say their dogs can with no verifiable proof beyond their own words in every breed, herders included. 

The trick is sorting out the fact from fiction. When in doubt go test the dog and/or parents in person.

I have working Olde English Bulldogges, plenty of empty promises and hype in the breed. Heaps upon heaps of my dog can because somewhere way back there some distant dog or bitch in that paper hung pedigree worked. 

Yet I was able to put together a decent yard of working Bulldogges. Are they the greatest working dogs out there, absolutely not but I'm happy with their ability.


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> I was just about to add, besides the AB and the APBT ....
> 
> Thomas, when I was talking about success, I was not talking about success in titling in sports...I was talking about producing good dogs.
> 
> who said this?
> 
> "As far as new breeds. I think the DP is 10x better then any bandogge I've seen. "Almost" as good as Donovan thinks they are  )


How do you identify a "good dog"? If you test them then OK but if you rely on a edited video where the dog is worked with a lot of agitation or defense. Then lots of dogs can be made to look better then they really are. The DP's are 10x better then any bandogge I've seen, but IMO so is a standard performance American Bull Dog (not a Johnson). I've seen too many "breeders" mix a pit with just about any big dog and start the hype about what a bad ass dog they've produced.


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## Dave Colborn

Michael Joubert said:


> It doesn't matter what breed it is there is always a certain amount of romanticized history that goes along with it.
> 
> There will always be those that say their dogs can with no verifiable proof beyond their own words in every breed, herders included.
> 
> The trick is sorting out the fact from fiction. When in doubt go test the dog and/or parents in person.
> 
> I have working Olde English Bulldogges, plenty of empty promises and hype in the breed. Heaps upon heaps of my dog can because somewhere way back there some distant dog or bitch in that paper hung pedigree worked.
> 
> Yet I was able to put together a decent yard of working Bulldogges. Are they the greatest working dogs out there, absolutely not but I'm happy with their ability.


Was that one of your dogs biting the guy in the crotch on that other thread???


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## Connie Sutherland

Joby Becker said:


> .... who said this?
> 
> "As far as new breeds. I think the DP is 10x better then any bandogge I've seen. "Almost" as good as Donovan thinks they are  )


I know who.


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## Michael Joubert

Dave Colborn said:


> Was that one of your dogs biting the guy in the crotch on that other thread???


Yes Dave that's one of mine.







Here's my favorite pic


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> How do you identify a "good dog"? If you test them then OK but if you rely on a edited video where the dog is worked with a lot of agitation or defense. Then lots of dogs can be made to look better then they really are. The DP's are 10x better then any bandogge I've seen, but IMO so is a standard performance American Bull Dog (not a Johnson). I've seen too many "breeders" mix a pit with just about any big dog and start the hype about what a bad ass dog they've produced.


Thomas..would you call your dogs good dogs?


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## Dave Colborn

Michael Joubert said:


> Yes Dave that's one of mine.
> View attachment 2524
> 
> Here's my favorite pic


I meant to ask what breed it was in the other thread. Beatiful dog!!


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## Joby Becker

I have worked about a dozen OEB, I like them, they are very cute too...and comical at times...


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## Michael Joubert

Yes they can be quite clownish, that's the upside to their slow maturation.


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> Thomas..would you call your dogs good dogs?


Of course, but that's my opinion and since I'm the one that feeds and houses them. I'm the only one they need to please. ;-)
Seriously do you care what other people think about your dogs?
If you're breeding or selling a dog, then someone else opinion might mean something, but I'm not so it doesn't


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## drew sterner

mark tanaka said:


> Well his dogs work and do so well and have proven themselves in different venues multiple times I was more than willing to talk about this I'm fine with learning and being wrong but a lot of what was said was juvenile, period and i expected more (probably shouldnt have) from such "experienced" people...i was a Marine Ive seen assholes but expected more here...I'm sure you guys have very nice dogs that's fine but to say herders are the only dogs worth there salt is ridiculous.... And there are a lot of people that breed for personal protection/ hog dogs and the dogs excel at both....I guess the best you can do is look up mansons kimbo or Donovan's scratch ... But most of you have more thn made up your mind already.... BTW speed of maturity #1 reason herders are chosen over other breeds for police work


personal protection dogs arent held to a standard. How can we compare them to anything that is consistently tested. I can think of quite a few more reasons that would come up at #1 besides speed of maturity. (although that is important)

also we said there were exceptions, but yes, as a whole herders are a better choice if you want a dog that will perform consistently. Fortunately i dont need to hunt hogs, so that is not an issue for me, or police departments, military, ect ect.


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## Matt Grosch

It was VERY hard for me to accept when my AB had zero protection ability, I remember back in the day talking to the head of the PD k9 team and telling him they should consider switching over to american bulldogs (*cringe*).......



All the years, all the enthusiasm....I was like a kung fu guy when the UFC first came out


no one gets it right their first try, try to do everything right with this dog and if you are serious about work/sport/PP you have plenty of time to see clubs and legit trainers, find some PSA or Ring people in your area


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## drew sterner

Matt Grosch said:


> It was VERY hard for me to accept when my AB had zero protection ability, I remember back in the day talking to the head of the PD k9 team and telling him they should consider switching over to american bulldogs (*cringe*).......
> 
> 
> 
> All the years, all the enthusiasm....I was like a kung fu guy when the UFC first came out
> 
> 
> no one gets it right their first try, try to do everything right with this dog and if you are serious about work/sport/PP you have plenty of time to see clubs and legit trainers, find some PSA or Ring people in your area


ha, great analogy. Herders are the royce gracie of ufc1.


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## David Ruby

Matt Grosch said:


> It was VERY hard for me to accept when my AB had zero protection ability, I remember back in the day talking to the head of the PD k9 team and telling him they should consider switching over to american bulldogs (*cringe*).......


Hey Matt, there are still some good working American Bulldogs. Some are going to be better at hunting or weight pull or farm dogs. Still, and take this with a grain of salt, I've seen American Bulldogs that had VERY high protection ability, loved to fight, and seemed very capable of taking out potential bad guys or even doing sport. There is a reason people gravitate toward Malinois and herders in general, and watching from the sidelines long enough I can see the differences and why one may be better for certain scenarios.

However, I think it is a bit bunk to just flat out say American Bulldogs can't do it, depending on what "it" is. The biggest problem I can see (in my non-expert observation) is there is not a huge gene pool of Bulldogs, Molossers, or "off-breeds" in general being bred & tested for manwork/sport/protection/SAR/whatever, much less being worked for that stuff. If you saw people putting the effort into breeding APBT, American Bulldogs, Donovan Pinschers, Bouvier, Corso, Boxers, Dobermanns, Airedales, or whatnot toward Police/sport/rescue work even if they never supplanted German Shepherds and Malinois you would probably see them evolve into more capable dogs for that work.

I suppose my only proof for that is that historically most of those breeds have done so, and you see the occasional American Pit Bull Terrier or American Bulldog or Bouvier des Flandres in the hands of somebody like Leri Hanson, Francis Metcalf, or Butch Henderson and they get really high honors with their dogs, people make comments about how cool it is, and since almost nobody else jumps on the "off-breed" bandwagon they get pretty much over-looked. To me, that seems to indicate there are good dogs out there in those breeds, however relatively few people are training/working them, even fewer are doing it the level of the people mentioned before, and then people are not necessarily actively breeding to those dogs. It seems kind of strange more people did not breed to the Dobermann Agir, for example, after how successful Butch Henderson was with him.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby

Thomas Barriano said:


> How do you identify a "good dog"? If you test them then OK but if you rely on a edited video where the dog is worked with a lot of agitation or defense. Then lots of dogs can be made to look better then they really are. *The DP's are 10x better then any bandogge I've seen, but IMO so is a standard performance American Bull Dog (not a Johnson).* I've seen too many "breeders" mix a pit with just about any big dog and start the hype about what a bad ass dog they've produced.


Hey Thomas, over-hyped or not, I would like to see the Donovan Pinscher or these types of breeds (yes, I'm lumping Presa/Corso/Standard-AB's/Bandogs/etc. together) given more of a chance to succeed. I've never seen a Donovan Pinscher in real life, however I like the premise. I like Bulldogs just from a personality standpoint. Herders are growing on me, and I generally like dogs, however on paper a Bulldog-like personality with the work ethic of a Malinois, while perhaps a bit of a compromise (maybe, maybe not, I am personally not sure), is probably what a lot of Bulldog Folk would like. A dog that can get out there, work, and still have some of the character traits and personality type they like. Maybe that is just a matter of finding the right APBT/AB or Herder that has enough drive/workability and the right temperament, especially since the pool of Malinois blood for instance is pretty deep with lots of lines out there.

Whether the DP (or whatever else) is legit right now or not (for police/sport/whatever), in your opinion, what would happen if it (or one of the other sort of similar blueprint breeds) was given more attention and more people worked them, the breed pool were made deeper (just sheer numbers, I cannot imagine there are that many DP's), and they started breeding the better/best ones and you had more than one guy doing it more-or-less from what I understand on his own? I know this is a shade or two off-topic, however I think there could be a niche for that sort of dog, particularly if it developed, or were more "proven," and people saw it as a legitimate choice for say Malinois-type working traits with the Bulldog-type temperament.

-Cheers


----------



## Joby Becker

David Ruby said:


> Hey Thomas, over-hyped or not, I would like to see the Donovan Pinscher or these types of breeds (yes, I'm lumping Presa/Corso/Standard-AB's/Bandogs/etc. together) given more of a chance to succeed. I've never seen a Donovan Pinscher in real life, however I like the premise. I like Bulldogs just from a personality standpoint. Herders are growing on me, and I generally like dogs, however on paper a Bulldog-like personality with the work ethic of a Malinois, while perhaps a bit of a compromise (maybe, maybe not, I am personally not sure), is probably what a lot of Bulldog Folk would like. A dog that can get out there, work, and still have some of the character traits and personality type they like. Maybe that is just a matter of finding the right APBT/AB or Herder that has enough drive/workability and the right temperament, especially since the pool of Malinois blood for instance is pretty deep with lots of lines out there.
> 
> Whether the DP (or whatever else) is legit right now or not (for police/sport/whatever), in your opinion, what would happen if it (or one of the other sort of similar blueprint breeds) was given more attention and more people worked them, the breed pool were made deeper (just sheer numbers, I cannot imagine there are that many DP's), and they started breeding the better/best ones and you had more than one guy doing it more-or-less from what I understand on his own? I know this is a shade or two off-topic, however I think there could be a niche for that sort of dog, particularly if it developed, or were more "proven," and people saw it as a legitimate choice for say Malinois-type working traits with the Bulldog-type temperament.
> 
> -Cheers


The pitbull has such a terrible stigma associated with it, and that carries over to bulldog/bandog types as well, it probably would not matter too much even if there are great ones out there to most people...

I worked for a guy in IN once, almost 20 years ago for about a year, a vendor of K9's, and protection dog trainer..

I was kennel/ob/helper/agitator..guy was a die hard GSD guy, for months and months and months I listened to him telling everyone how terrible pitbulls were, (even though I had one at the time also had a gsd, presas, a rottie) and he also hated bulldogs for that matter, they were all crazy, were no good for work, wont protect their owners, and all should be put down, and at the very least should never do any bitework.. this is pretty well ingrained for lots of people, the dogs were not really intended to do bite work training traditionally, even though some have been bred for it..

Once I realized I was not going to be working with the guy much longer, as he was very pompous in attitude, a loud asshole mostly, 100% closed mind as far as training went, only used left arm sleeves for police dog training, no suits, no muzzles etc...hated mals too, was putting out inferior products and training, and expecting me to handle group OB and protection classes for an hourly rate, and using me too much, I kinda waited for an opportunity to arise where I could bait him into a challenge of sorts..

One day like any other when some clients came to the kennel, and he was bagging on the nice offbreed dog they had, and trying to sell them a GSD, I made up my mind...I waited for the K9 group to show up, and got him to go off on a tirade about pitbulls for his group of nuthuggers, by making some benign comment to him, I then made some comments that I had a 60 lb pitbull dog at home that was great and nothing like how he was describing them, I was just a lowly employee, so of course I had no clue what the hell I was talking about, which he also shared with the group, had a good laugh at my expense...

I talked him into a challenge of sorts, his idea, and he requested that I bring the dog out to his facility, so he could test the dog out... I talked him into going head to head with his best personal dog, and also talked him into using a sleeve AND a bitesuit, ..he had a bitesuit hanging in his facility, he claimed he used it, although I never saw it being used in a year or so...

he also stipulated that he wanted a bunch of people there (his groupies) to make a judgement, I assume to make a fool out of me in front of them, for standing up to him, in front of them, and stated that he was going to run my dog with is agitation skills, so I could back out if I wanted to, no hard feelings...we agreed on the use of the padded stick, and imagination. The day finally came, about 6-7 guys, me and him, his "best" GSD, and my pitbull..a left and right arm sleeve, a bitesuit and a a padded stick. a gentlemans bet, to make me look and feel stupid (in his mind)

we did some OB...my dog was much faster and crisper, but barked alot in the OB, so I got a demerit from the group.

We agreed on a few protection scenarios and went at it. his dog first.

He sent his dog to bite me, on a long bite/courage test...

I sidestepped to a tree, instead of charging the dog, and leaned up against a tree and stood there with the right arm sleeve at my side (which I doubt the dog ever saw much if ever), his dog slipped into a bark and hold, and I clobbered him right between the ears with the padded stick and yelled at him. he jumped back and started going back to him, after that it was pretty much downhill...the dog recovered and did work, with his help... but failed to engage in the building search, and when we went to the bitesuit, he would not come inside, and went for the wrists on the outside, esquived him once and went after him, he almost quit...even got him to pop off a couple times with stick hits (not to his head). he did good on the runaway, and took the back and took me down...which impressed everyone there...his control went out the window fairly early, and the dog would not out, it was easy to threaten him to keep him on the bite, but impressed people there. I was not very good, no experienced professional police dog agitator or anything like him, but got way into his dogs head 

The pitbull I had, was not scared of him in the least, even though he tried, did decent work, was pretty aggressive with him as far as thrashing went, but stayed on the sleeve, and outed reasonably well...dog had no trouble in the building, even though he used a chair to try to keep the dog from coming in (against the rules lol), almost go bit for real when the dog flew right over it. dog did great in the suit, hit him in the stomach when he pulled his arms back, and knocked him down, he fell on the dog, and the dog popped off and it took his shoulder...pretty much I think it scared the crap out of him, at least that is what it looked like, when he was screaming for me to get the dog off of him...

after it was over, he, in his own way did concede, but not without making sure everyone knew that my dog was a dangerous dog, even though the outs were much cleaner, and he tried to beat the dog off a lot more than I did, and he never got in the dogs head much at all.... the group concensus was that my dog preformed better than his, but was dangerous (in front of him)...a couple guys I talked with on the side said my dog smoked his, and everything about the dog looked way better...

I was working with my mentor with that dog for about 2 yrs..., an ex-marine trainer, and pretty well known SCH training decoy at the time, who recognized good dogs when he saw them, regardless of their breeds...and knew how to get a gamebred type dog to bite and fight, we were friends for a looong time about 8 yrs or so, until I moved... ...guy was nutty for sure, but loved working dogs....

I finished out the day of work, and when I got home, there was a message on my answering machine telling me that I was not needed there anymore, which was fine with me..

I applied at another place closer to me, and told the guy where I used to work, he called up the dude, and the guy said he knew me, and that I worked for him a very short time, and did not really know what I was doing and that he would not hire me... I ended up having to get a couple guys to call and talk with the other guy to vouch for me, and was given a chance to come in and do an "audition". Got hired..worked for a couple months, same type of guy, Hardcore GSD guy, very closed minded, talked loud, was God to his clients and hated all offbreeds for work, he told me. He at least liked mals some, but would tell people that they dont make good police dogs at all, because they cant transfer to new handlers...he did work offbreeds in protection, and did train police dogs with a suit and in muzzle, so he was a much better dude in that regard...but still ended up being an asshole in the end...so I quit that place...I did not ever tell him I had offbreed dogs or make any suggestions, just did my job for the most part...until I decided to go work for my sister at her flower shop LOL...

a couple years later, I started working with another guy part time, a county K9 officer in my county, just doing kennel work, and helping him start off his new training business, he bought out a big show dog kennel facility on the outskirts of town..and did board and trains, OB, and some protection work....I put down the first guy I worked with for work history, and the second guy...first guy said he never even heard of me..lol... I was not surprised...worked out for a while ok, but his business never took off, and he ended up not being able to keep me on....

I think these days, there may be a more open mind in the dog training community overall, but not because people are changing their minds, I dont think much really, just that different people are involved more...

there is just a stigma that some "professional" people will not look passed. and a general lack of interest...

people like what they like...


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## David Ruby

Joby Becker said:


> The pitbull has such a terrible stigma associated with it, and that carries over to bulldog/bandog types as well, it probably would not matter too much even if there are great ones out there to most people...


You may be right. For me it is the total opposite. I just knew/learned from people who had nice American Bulldogs and did a lot of APBT/Bully rescues and training, so my impression was always that the Bulldogs/Bull-&-Terriers were just awesome dogs. Nice, could be dog aggressive however that could be worked around with training (still a pita to me, but not impossible to deal with or anything), but basically fun dogs that could be really athletic and were just a joy to be around. All I heard initially was about how Malinois would come up at the leash at you and do nothing but pace around all the time they were not actively working. For the longest time I never understood why people would actually want to live with that.

I think stigma and breed-bias (one way or the other) are kind of momentum killers in a way.

Interesting stories by the way.

-Cheers


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## Joby Becker

David Ruby said:


> You may be right. For me it is the total opposite. I just knew/learned from people who had nice American Bulldogs and did a lot of APBT/Bully rescues and training, so my impression was always that the Bulldogs/Bull-&-Terriers were just awesome dogs. Nice, could be dog aggressive however that could be worked around with training (still a pita to me, but not impossible to deal with or anything), but basically fun dogs that could be really athletic and were just a joy to be around. All I heard initially was about how Malinois would come up at the leash at you and do nothing but pace around all the time they were not actively working. For the longest time I never understood why people would actually want to live with that.
> 
> I think stigma and breed-bias (one way or the other) are kind of momentum killers in a way.
> 
> Interesting stories by the way.
> 
> -Cheers


well that stigma goes both ways...not all mal types pace around all day and come up the leash...it is more ignorance of people in general from all sides...ignorance, and/or disinterest that is...


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## David Ruby

Joby Becker said:


> well that stigma goes both ways...not all mal types pace around all day and come up the leash...it is more ignorance of people in general from all sides...ignorance, and/or disinterest that is...


Sure, I agree. I've since met some nice Malinois and Dutch Shepherds that defied the stereotypes and seemed like really great dogs.

-Cheers


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## Travis Ragin

David Ruby said:


> . There is a reason people gravitate toward Malinois and herders in general,



I find it interesting,and not from any breed preference perspective btw......when/that, these dogs are just so casually grouped as "herders". Does anything in the creation/phenotype/temperment of the Malinois lend itself to be a herding dog amongst flocks of prey animals,including babies and adults? (I ask because I don't know)
The Dutch Shepherd (which i like







) same question?


On the subject of the GSD,my research has always made me see them as the whole purpose the DOG,is for having more of a mentality of a Livestock Guardian Dog,like a Sarplaninac or Ovcharka,or this GP.......as I see it,just built to be a smaller smarter version of these:
http://youtu.be/IVMJX07N220
http://youtu.be/RYT8xaXe90s
http://youtu.be/zdeDvS4NqY0

(notice the whistle and watch the lower right of the screen at *:14*)
http://youtu.be/Bhbp__oSecA



If the ideal GSD today started going back to the temperment(exclusively) of the above dogs,would that be a bad "turn" for the breed?
Will any of the above dogs(Mal/Dutchie/GSD) still be labeled as "herders"... 75 years from now?
What will the Presa/Corso/Standard-AB's/Bandogs/etc. be labeled as then?


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## David Ruby

Travis Ragin said:


> I find it interesting,and not from any breed preference perspective btw......when/that, these dogs are just so casually grouped as "herders". Does anything in the creation/phenotype/temperment of the Malinois lend itself to be a herding dog amongst flocks of prey animals,including babies and adults? (I ask because I don't know)
> The Dutch Shepherd (which i like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) same question?


For me, I think it's because historically they originated from the same dogs. That is what I have read, although they breeds/lines have diverged so there is quite a range over time. Despite that, it is easier for me to lump them all together as "Herders" since they share a similar history and purpose (primarily bred for Police/sport work). I do the same thing with "Bulldogs" for most Molossers (e.g. APBT, AB, Presa, etc.) realizing there can be quite a bit of difference within that loose category (or even between lines or individual dogs within breeds). Still, their general purposes and backgrounds are at least somewhat linked between the Herder-based, Molossers, Drovers, Hunting dogs, or however you want to look at it.

It might be a bit flawed, and it is more of a loose classification for me, however that's generally sort of how I look at it.

-Cheers


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## Gerard Jones

wesley stephens said:


> i will be looking to get a working corso within the next year or so what are some breeders you recommend?


I Highly Recommend Valkyrie Cane Corso. I recently got a puppy from Brian to compete in PSA with. His breeding program is designed for dogs that will do real work. He breeds his dogs for hog hunting. Although I got my dog for sport work, I have no doubt that she'll do any task I ask of her. He breeds his dogs to have the mind and body that a working dog should have. Functionality is the key.


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## Gerard Jones

drew sterner said:


> dream team kennels. Ish has some really nice working dogs. Specifically a male named trotter, the dog has drive and endurance for days. He also has a very serious female named zora around that i have seen both worked first hand. He is currently training for his sch 1 with trotter. I dont like corsos, and i would feed that dog.
> 
> edit: in addition ish is a super nice guy to deal with.


I personally wouldn't mess with Dream Team's dogs.


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## Gerard Jones

I agree with you completely!!! I know Andrae from Dei la Onda. I just got a pup from Valkyrie Cane Corso. Awesome working dogs. This pup I just got is solid as far as nerves. Great working drive.


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## Gerard Jones

Boerboels are flighty. They can't out perform a Corso. I've seen one that would work. Most of them have been watered down like so many other breeds. They are impressive to look at but agility wise and athleticism aren't even close to a Corso.


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## Gerard Jones

Rotties and GSD's are so overbred that you are taking a huge risk by getting one. Especially from a breeder in the states. If you get a CC that comes from strong working lines and has the mind for work; I'd prefer one of those over any other breed out there. that's just me though. I've had experience with every other working dog you can think of. After I got my first CC in 2003, I was sold. I'll more than likely never own another breed.


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## Larry Krohn

I love the Corso as a family protection dog but it's going to be a lot tougher to find a good working line one. Too many are way too big even though they are still pretty athletic at a large size. I have worked with many and what I like best about them is they are very quiet and mellow in the house, they have no interest in other people or dogs when out and about, and they will guard your property very seriously, but I have not encountered any that would make good working dogs, but I know they are out there, just harder to find


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