# Taz on the decoy



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Taz is coming up on 7 months now. Here is a vid of IPO today doing some bite work.
The vid starts at a bad angle with the decoy moving laterally out of the camera view but it corrects a few seconds in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPbE4Q8yGKI


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Looks like a really nice pup. Keep up the good work


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks Dave, I gotta get on that tracking though your vids inspired me..lol.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

nice pup !

so what exactly were you guys trying to accomplish in that session ?


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks.
Build the bark, develop grip, encourage her to pull in the bite, develop her intensity / commitment to the helper/ bite and build on her confidence. Also, do prelimenary hold work with the tug that we transition to the dumbell, nice calm grip etc (if I decide to train it that way, I may go with MEs method).


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Very nice puppy Haz. Keep posting videos of her progression. 



Thanks for sharing


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Like the puppy but wasn't thrilled with the training :-(
I don't like throwing the tug in the dogs mouth or the pulling on one end of the tug. It got better at the end where Taz was allowed to strike and the tug was pulled from both sides so he got even pressure and a nice even full grip. I"m not sure what holding the tug close to vertical and too high was supposed to accomplish near the end?


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks guys.

Thomas, if anything the helper is an incrimentalist. He is great at bringing along young or weak dogs and I like his body of work. At this stage we are doing less strikes and more building her desire to engage. He throws the tug to reward her barking and also to improve her strike / targeting. I have noticed that she has gotten much quicker to strike and clamps down harder.

The techniques he employs work well for dogs that are less secure as the rewards begin farther out, and the work is less confrontational and more focussed on confidence/drive building. 

Can Taz handle more at this stage? Probably, but I like how she is coming along.
Im no helper but I like how he does things.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Haz Othman said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Thomas, if anything the helper is an incrimentalist. He is great at bringing along young or weak dogs and I like his body of work. At this stage we are doing less strikes and more building her desire to engage. He throws the tug to reward her barking and also to improve her strike / targeting. I have noticed that she has gotten much quicker to strike and clamps down harder.
> 
> ...


Haz

If you're happy with the work then OK. The Decoy isn't doing anything bad per se. I just believe in working the dog in front of you and not trying to get the dog to fit into a "program" Taz isn't weak or insecure. She doesn't need a suicide rabbit thrown in her mouth


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Haz
> 
> If you're happy with the work then OK. The Decoy isn't doing anything bad per se. I just believe in working the dog in front of you and not trying to get the dog to fit into a "program" Taz isn't weak or insecure. She doesn't need a suicide rabbit thrown in her mouth


Cant argue with that. If we hit a platue down the road Ill probably want to switch things up. We have only been doing this for about 1 month. In January we will probably progress to the bite wedge, around spring start incorporating some obedience and progress to the soft sleeve if she is ready. 

Lol there has been a standard poodle coming out to the club (with the haircut and everything..) that he recently got on the tug and barking... Maybe its messing with his perspective :mrgreen:. J/k


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Better safe than sorry. If the guy began the work and is progressing the dog, he probably knows better what she needs than what an onlooker can tell from a 4 minute video. Rather see the work proceed cautiously than too fast and love that fact that he isn't playing the warrior decoy. Looking forward to the next update.

T


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for Haz
re: developing "targeting and the strike" 
different ways to do this
- i would consider these to be the extremes :
1. walking a dog in and placing it on the bite 
2. tossing an object at the dog's mouth from a distance

and i realize it all depends on the type of dog in front of you 

anyway, i could list a few reasons why i think tossing a tug into a dog's mouth from a distance does not improve the strike and targeting, but since you think it does, could you explain why you are training this way ?


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thats how we generally starts all the pups here. 
You notice he does a couple of misses before he gives her a bite. When she hits the tug its hard and fast. She clamps down hard because the rope he has at the end of the tug allows him to apply pressure to the tug so its never "dead" in her mouth even if he is far away. 
Initially she would often miss the tug when it was tossed, she is much quicker now and I find it translates to better entries as we have started doing a few escapes and firmer grips. 

I think its arguable if Taz really needs this exact type of training. However, what I do know is she lights up on this helper and shows commitment and intensity that I certainly can't get out of her. 
That is also the trend with many of the other young dogs here and some of the older weaker ones. Whatever he is selling the dogs are buying it.

I think there are several roads to Rome here, maybe there is a better one to follow but for now I am happy with what Im seeing and will stay the course.


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Looks like your both having fun.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Better safe than sorry. If the guy began the work and is progressing the dog, he probably knows better what she needs than what an onlooker can tell from a 4 minute video. Rather see the work proceed cautiously than too fast and love that fact that he isn't playing the warrior decoy. Looking forward to the next update.
> 
> T


Your opinion is based on titling how many Schutzhund dogs?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Your opinion is based on titling how many Schutzhund dogs?


And you are prescribing what a dog does or does not need based on a four minute video and you've never worked the dog or seen its development? Have you followed the posts about the dog, even? Do you recall any of it? Like you said, despite your personal preferences, the decoy isn't doing anything wrong. 

T


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

tx for the response Haz

-because that's how we generally start all the dogs- 
.... doesn't really explain the "why" part of my question 

for comparison, here is how i was viewing the same situation :
1. a dog moving fwd to engage is expressing more intensity than a dog waiting for something to be handed to it or tossed to it. that is why (imo) a dog should never be "fed" a sleeve unless it is a weak dog that is being encouraged to grip
2. an arm inside a sleeve and attached to a moving target (helper) can keep the object (sleeve) "alive" much more than an object (soft tug) on the end of a line that a helper is applying some light tension on. a human attached to the sleeve can read the grip better than an inanimate object on a line and apply opposition reflex and/or fight to the canine's grip much better than a tug on a ten foot rope. iow, more feedback to the dog at precisely the time it needs it (better timing)
- fwiw, your helper wasn't even looking at the dog sometimes after he tossed the tug. he was looking away and just keeping some momentary tension on the line a few seconds before dropping it (referring to the 2:10- 2:17 segment).... i didn't "get" that part of it

not trying to say "my" way is the only way or the only road; just trying to see yours


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> tx for the response Haz
> 
> -because that's how we generally start all the dogs-
> .... doesn't really explain the "why" part of my question
> ...


Maybe there is a combination of things going on here: 1) ability to grip a moving target--eye/mouth coordination; 2) dog's fight/flight zone or defense/prey zone; 3) rewarding barks with access to prey; 4) grips/countering; 5) channeling prey & defense--combining timed frontal pressure with flying tug/prey and getting a good grip and pressure release simultaneously. [Either I'm really creative in my interpretation of that or he is ]. Maybe he's not concerned with her moving forward into pressure until she has certain elements without pressure. Maybe he can feel the grip through line tension and see it for that matter without her being attached to is arm. Maybe he's working at a distance for a reason. Ditto for not looking at the dog--as in pressure off. But the answer to all my maybes is in how he saw the dog from the time he started her and how he progresses her from this point to the next. Will be interesting to see. Haven't seen a dog worked like this but looks like an interesting approach.

T


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> And you are prescribing what a dog does or does not need based on a four minute video and you've never worked the dog or seen its development? Have you followed the posts about the dog, even? Do you recall any of it? Like you said, despite your personal preferences, the decoy isn't doing anything wrong.
> 
> T


So the short answer is you've never titled a Schutzhund/IPO dog? 
I"ve seen enough of Taz to know she has enough drive to NOT need the tug thrown in her mouth.
Look at the Kuno video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP3CgIEu7vU&feature=youtu.be
That's the way you work a high drive working dog.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> So the short answer is you've never titled a Schutzhund/IPO dog?
> I"ve seen enough of Taz to know she has enough drive to NOT need the tug thrown in her mouth.
> Look at the Kuno video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP3CgIEu7vU&feature=youtu.be
> That's the way you work a high drive working dog.


Thomas, is that how YOU work your dogs?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Thomas, is that how YOU work your dogs?



Exactly like that.


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

rick smith said:


> tx for the response Haz
> 
> -because that's how we generally start all the dogs-
> .... doesn't really explain the "why" part of my question
> ...


Like I said Rick Im no helper, Im probably missing some of the minutie in why he does what he does. I think there are several ways to take the dog where I want her to go. As long as she progresses I am happy if that stops then Ill know we have a problem. Like I said they take things slower here. 
I know she has the drive and nerve to handle much more pressure I wont debate that. 

I will continue to post her progress.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Having raised a dog from the same sire, and doing helper work for many dogs & breeds, I can offer a unique perspective and have a special interest in seeing how Taz works (in comparison to mine). PM'ing you.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Exactly like that.


video?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> video?


Why? I don't want or need advise from you. My training is between me and my dogs and my decoy(s)


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Why? I don't want or need advise from you. My training is between me and my dogs and my decoy(s)


wasnt looking to give any advice Thomas, just thought you might want to share some videos of great training, everyone likes to watch those, and some people might like to see if you really do train your dogs exactly like Joao and Martine do..


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> wasnt looking to give any advice Thomas, just thought you might want to share some videos of great training, everyone likes to watch those, and some people might like to see if you really do train your dogs exactly like Joao and Martine do..


C'mon - why all the fuss about a video?

I have never posted a video - why should I? I have and have had good dogs tested by excellent helpers at our clubs here.

I like chatting with you all on here but this ribbing about other people's dogs is either prompted by jealousy or ignorance.

Thomas - tell them to stick the idea of a video where the sun doesn't shine :lol:


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> C'mon - why all the fuss about a video?
> 
> I have never posted a video - why should I? I have and have had good dogs tested by excellent helpers at our clubs here.
> 
> ...


Exactly Gillian. The topic is Taz on the decoy not me and my dogs. People post videos because they want advise, critiques, input etc. I don't, so why should I post any video?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> C'mon - why all the fuss about a video?
> 
> I have never posted a video - why should I? I have and have had good dogs tested by excellent helpers at our clubs here.
> 
> ...



Confidence and contentment without feeling the need to prove it is a good thing in my books! :wink:


----------



## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> wasnt looking to give any advice Thomas, just thought you might want to share some videos of great training, everyone likes to watch those, and some people might like to see if you really do train your dogs exactly like Joao and Martine do..


I can offer a weekend at my place for all of you for free.we can all meet, train dogs and can see how we do. and the special good ones can tell us than how to do it better.No kidding!!!!!! how about in the spring, i think minnesota is close in the middle. Gillian if you want fly in i pick you up from the airport.
we have pet friendly hotels and my place is big enough for trailers,campers or what ever.outdoor or indoor,full suit or ipo or what ever.

and we can make a party,get drunken and the girls can dance on the table,or you Thomas


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Stefan Schaub said:


> and we can make a party,get drunken and the girls can dance on the table,or you Thomas


I can dance on the table OR the girls can dance on me?


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I can dance on the table OR the girls can dance on me?


Either way it sounds like a good time.


----------



## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I can dance on the table OR the girls can dance on me?


Sounds good for me


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I can offer a weekend at my place for all of you for free.we can all meet, train dogs and can see how we do. and the special good ones can tell us than how to do it better.No kidding!!!!!! how about in the spring, i think minnesota is close in the middle. Gillian if you want fly in i pick you up from the airport.
> we have pet friendly hotels and my place is big enough for trailers,campers or what ever.outdoor or indoor,full suit or ipo or what ever.
> 
> and we can make a party,get drunken and the girls can dance on the table,or you Thomas



Am I also invited?


----------



## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Am I also invited?


sure!!!


----------



## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Haz, thanks for sharing the video. 

7 months old is still a puppy. I like the work and will be doing some of the same stuff with my next pup. Targeting and striking are skills that have to be learned like everything else.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I can offer a weekend at my place for all of you for free.we can all meet, train dogs and can see how we do. and the special good ones can tell us than how to do it better.No kidding!!!!!! how about in the spring, i think minnesota is close in the middle. Gillian if you want fly in i pick you up from the airport.
> we have pet friendly hotels and my place is big enough for trailers,campers or what ever.outdoor or indoor,full suit or ipo or what ever.
> 
> and we can make a party,get drunken and the girls can dance on the table,or you Thomas


I'll bring the girls


----------



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Jobys got girls, Thomas is going to dance, tiago is going to come, I can supply a table, Stefan's got beer. Now we just need a date.


----------

