# advice on this dog



## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Young malinois, about a year old, just coming into her first heat...As a puppy she was a little bit fearful - hackles up, frozen in place staring at _whatever_. That didn't last long. She started lunging, barking. Hackles weren't raised. She was very reactive to almost anything, especially anything that moved. She exhibited the same reaction towards things she was unfamiliar with as she did towards kids and dogs that she knew and interacted with. A lot of lunging and barking, spinning, etc. Tail held high. I always questioned whether or not it was fear-driven, since she did this towards things she liked as well as things that were unknown.

Super high prey/play drive and a temper and a half when she didn't get her toy when she wanted it. Very quick to make associations in training, to the extent that she made some incorrect associations between command, behavior, reward (her brain works lightning fast, and she was connecting things faster than I could deliver them).

Recently she was at a kennel and she was in the play yard with an unfamiliar dog in the yard next to her. She had her tail glued to her stomach initially, later it was just tucked. She had a real high pitched fearful worried bark.

I'm trying to decide if this dog is a piece of &%$^. Thoughts??


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

The kennel, had she ever been there before? Had she had any interaction with the other dog??? It reads like there's more to this kennel story...oh, and just coming into her first heat??? Was that during the kennel too???


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The dog is a peice of shit.


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Michele McAtee said:


> The kennel, had she ever been there before? Had she had any interaction with the other dog??? It reads like there's more to this kennel story...oh, and just coming into her first heat??? Was that during the kennel too???


No, she had never been at that kennel - or any kennel, before, and it was the first time she's been that close to an unfamiliar dog.

I was at the kennel with her, and when she started reacting fearfully to the other dog, I went out to the yard and got her to focus on me, rewarded her when she paid attention to me instead of the other dog, and then put her in the car (we were leaving). I can tell you the other dog wasn't doing anything to warrant the reaction, except that the other dog was too close for comfort.

She was about to come into heat while she was at the kennel.

There probably is more to tell...ask anything you'd like to know. I do question the socializing I did with her as a pup, but *yikes*...she wasn't exactly the type that you can just take anywhere...


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

JEFF! You spelled piece wrong.

Marcy, if you believe the dog to be a piece of #& (or shit according to Jeff), then, well, that's likely what she will be...I believe you can work this dog and pull her thru, as what, it's her second heat cycle?


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Michele McAtee said:


> JEFF! You spelled piece wrong.
> 
> Marcy, if you believe the dog to be a piece of #& (or shit according to Jeff), then, well, that's likely what she will be...I believe you can work this dog and pull her thru, as what, it's her second heat cycle?


Well, I don't know what to believe...I've never had a dog with her issues before, and I don't know how much of it is trainable, workable. I also don't know how much of it is genetic and how much is mistakes I've made.

I'd love to be able to work her through it and compete with her. I'd love to believe that it's not genetic and that she could be bred. But my judgement tends to get a bit clouded...She's my second mal, and I got a bit spoiled with how easy the first one was.

It's her first heat cycle.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I don't think there are any perfect dogs, most will either have some problems from genetics or from the people that own them.

Try to be understanding of the dog and don't make any quick decisions, not saying that the dog isn't a peice of **** but you can't know for sure yet.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm gonna get my a$$ handed to me for this...BUT...tha's one of the reasons I didn't keep the two different Mals I tried working with. Not all, but to many have to be in drive to ignore their environmental issues. 
That's admitting to my limitations as a trainer but to many years of "in your face" "No fear" terriers has created an avoidance in me when it comes to working with dogs that have nerve issues. G&S dogs!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I guess everyone has different experiences, nerve issues are the exact reason I wont own a GSD again.

But this isn't the case for everyone.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Agreed! :grin:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi 

We've got a GSD who one of my colleagues, after watching him, said he wouldn't have him if we paid him:mrgreen: He said he was like our colleague's Mali.

I think this reflects on our methods of communication. The dog is extremely talented, in biting, shows good tracking inclination. WHEN I "get through to him" he works perfectly. I think the solution lies here in the "short sequences" and patience (although sometimes running out) is obviously a factor. 

One man called out to me yesterday "Is that a GSD X Mali? I replied, somewhat sourly, that he was "all GSD" on paper!!

The GSD has been crossed into the Mali (definitely) but the working GSDs that I know have had no need of fresh blood:mrgreen: 

Don't forget, when the Mali was in "danger of surpassing the GSD", the German breeders put their thinking caps on and started breeding the GSD who could hold his own against the Malinois. 

I have one, but I can honestly say, it's not everyone's idea of a dog. On the other hand, he's social to a point of loving, doesn't take to being handled roughly (gives back (if you're not quick off the mark) and when I whisper to him that he's done well, I get a "loving kiss" from the otherwise nasty alligator! But never make the mistake of thinking it's sincere!

Gillian


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Not all, but to many have to be in drive to ignore their environmental issues.


Yea, my first mal doesn't have the "nerve issues". He's super sensible about pretty much everything. I think I was a bit underprepared for this one.

With the way she's responded to obedience training - some of the odd associations she's made - makes me question her ability to think things through ~ which I guess is what makes a dog reactive in the first place.

When she's not overstimulated, she does some nice work. So...is it a matter of she's still young and needs more time to mature and more experiences to be able to figure things out? Is it a matter of my approach with her needs to change? Is she likely to be like this her whole life? Is this a genetic issue that shouldn't be bred? I'd love to keep working with her, but at the same time, I don't want to put in years of work only to still have the issues.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

marcy bukkit said:


> Yea, my first mal doesn't have the "nerve issues". He's super sensible about pretty much everything. I think I was a bit underprepared for this one.
> 
> With the way she's responded to obedience training - some of the odd associations she's made - makes me question her ability to think things through ~ which I guess is what makes a dog reactive in the first place.
> 
> When she's not overstimulated, she does some nice work. So...is it a matter of she's still young and needs more time to mature and more experiences to be able to figure things out? Is it a matter of my approach with her needs to change? Is she likely to be like this her whole life? Is this a genetic issue that shouldn't be bred? I'd love to keep working with her, but at the same time, I don't want to put in years of work only to still have the issues.


I think your best bet would be to have someone that really understands the breed to see and eval the dog. Possible, with the dog's pedigree, someon like Kadi could give you an idea of what to expect from a particular breeding.


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I think your best bet would be to have someone that really understands the breed to see and eval the dog.


Easier said than done...I've been to several trainers, and none of them seem to have a good grasp on dog behavior. One who may or may not know what they're doing refuses to work with anyone who doesn't have the potential to be FR3. There are still a few that I haven't called yet, mainly AKC oriented, but possibly more experienced with behavior issues like this ~ reactive is reactive, after all, regardless of breed or sport. They're next on the list.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry Marcy

There I go ratting on about my GSD and you're left with your problem! I googled Malinois - first time on heat - in German and a number of replies came up on one or two forums. The first two had Malinois bitches that became very frightened of other dogs, especially bitches, although the dogs were not like this beforehand. Other forum members confirmed they had had the same problem (age of bitch in question about 12 months). The ones answering said that this went away as suddenly as it came. One bitch wasn't a Malinois and I can't see that this is just a Mali problem. However, I've always kept dogs.

So, it could be the hormones.

Gillian


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks, Gillian...google hates me...

I definitely will hold off on making any decisions about her until she's out of heat. If she had been calm, cool and collected prior to this, I would blow it off as hormones and be done with the issue.

Bob, I have taken your suggestion and contacted Kadi.

I do realize also that it's extremely difficult to assess a dog over the internet. I wish I had a video camera.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Hi Marcy,

Ultimately, what are your plans for the dog? 
Whether shes a piece of crap or not in our opinion does not matter, it just depends on what you want to do with the dog. 

Personally, I can't help but beg you to never breed this dog. Genetic or not, fearful, reactive, bad-nerved mothers teach those traits to their puppies without fail. The issues you describe are all fear-based, forwardness just means that the dog has had success with learning that forward aggression builds distance between her and that which she fears. It's a basic example of defense (the bigger and tougher I LOOK, the less likely you are to try and fight me). Like you said, it's very difficult to judge a dog without seeing it, but she does not sound to me like a dog that should ever be considered for a breeding program. Whether shes a dog worth working with, again, depends on your plans/expectations for her.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Hey Marcy,

I see dog's such as you are describing, turn into wonderful dogs, day after day after day. It appears that most forum members carefully select dogs to be what they want. I always have to make the most of what I have. 

If a guy has a 2 m-m-m-m-m-million (I get nervous around that kind of cost) orca, (okapi-elephant-labradoodle...) . The orca, sleeping, is worth more than the trainer tap dancing nekkid. So, trainer goes, animal rolls over in bed. 

The best dog of my entire career started out like your girl. He needed a lot of work, but he was really dynamite. Nobody can help feeling/experiencing trauma, but there are things that can be done to manage the emotional consequences. 

I find that high drive dogs are particularly prone to forming addictions to neuropeptides - like norepinephrine and dopamine. The animals are not necessarily consciously aware of the triggers that start the neuropeptide cascade but once it starts, they are drawn in until they achieve catharsis/satiation. So, once they have a strong experience, they may keep happening into similar trigger situations, not realizing they have a choice. Once you teach them they have a choice and options for dealing with things, they will often choose calmness.

It does not mean they lose drive. On the contrary - they are more powerful and self-managed. We don't train LEOs to run around slavering and lunging etc... :-k Or do we???? ( and we don't test them at birth to see whether or not they lunge naturally by the way, and maybe that should change O ).

It is labor intensive to work these issues out sometimes, but often it only takes a bit of time. Like less than 15 hours of training time. 

I teach bridges, target, then "Easy" and "Alert". Once the dog can switch between "Easy" and "Alert", then I start asking them to be "Easy" while I bring distractions in and out, working our their ability to maintain calm despite the approach of some challenge.

By the way, I think that this kind of training is tantamount to health insurance for dog (and other animals). Being adrenalized directly suppresses the immune system, making the animal more susceptible to illness.


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Kayce Cover said:


> Hey Marcy,
> 
> I see dog's such as you are describing, turn into wonderful dogs, day after day after day. It appears that most forum members carefully select dogs to be what they want. I always have to make the most of what I have.
> 
> ...


It would be nice if that's the case here.



> I find that high drive dogs are particularly prone to forming addictions to neuropeptides - like norepinephrine and dopamine. The animals are not necessarily consciously aware of the triggers that start the neuropeptide cascade but once it starts, they are drawn in until they achieve catharsis/satiation. So, once they have a strong experience, they may keep happening into similar trigger situations, not realizing they have a choice. Once you teach them they have a choice and options for dealing with things, they will often choose calmness.


Very interesting, and makes a lot of sense ~ although some of those words are just too big for a lazy sunday afternoon 



> It does not mean they lose drive. On the contrary - they are more powerful and self-managed. We don't train LEOs to run around slavering and lunging etc... :-k Or do we???? ( and we don't test them at birth to see whether or not they lunge naturally by the way, and maybe that should change O ).
> 
> It is labor intensive to work these issues out sometimes, but often it only takes a bit of time. Like less than 15 hours of training time.
> 
> I teach bridges, target, then "Easy" and "Alert". Once the dog can switch between "Easy" and "Alert", then I start asking them to be "Easy" while I bring distractions in and out, working our their ability to maintain calm despite the approach of some challenge.


I'd like to hear more details on how you do this...I'm sure it's posted already _somewhere_. I kinda need the "bridges and targets for neuropeptide-addicted dogs training course for dummies". I tried doing clicker work with her and it was a disaster, but I'm game to try again if need be, if I have a solid outline for what to do.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

marcy bukkit said:


> I'd like to hear more details on how you do this...I'm sure it's posted already _somewhere_. I kinda need the "bridges and targets for neuropeptide-addicted dogs training course for dummies". I tried doing clicker work with her and it was a disaster, but I'm game to try again if need be, if I have a solid outline for what to do.


:wink: :-D

I know, I know. I am trying to figure out how to manage some software right now and it's just exhausting. It's not like we get to take a vacation from all the other pressing things...

Clicker can be great for some dogs, but some need more support and more information on what you want, in order to optimize. You can email me at [email protected], or from the comments section of my video page for free start up instructions. It is REALLY easy to start, which trips people up because they think it can't possibly work so easily. It takes less than a minnute to get started. A number of people on this forum have played around with it. The post you responded to has the actual outline for getting started with building a dog's ability to cope with stressors and manage her emotions. 

Once you get the beginning steps down, then you need to learn how to introduce things in "Cycles" but that is for another day. I guarantee* you that investing time with your dog in these skills will be one of the best things you can possibly do with/for her. Even if you decide to place her in a new home. 

*Guarantee: I, Kayce Cover, hereby guarantee that teaching "Conditioned Relaxation," "Bridges", "Targets", and "Cycles" to any dog will be a worthwhile investment or you can have my compass, my kinalie marble, and my relic of the true cross. :---)


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

fear is fear, that's the bottom line. It's unfortunate. You can deny it and try to talk around it but....................it sucks for sure.

Good luck with her and just do your best,
AL


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

I thank everyone for their time and input.

To update ~ 

When I bought this puppy, I had hoped to be buying something that would be breeding quality (I do realize that it's impossible to be certain of that in an 8-week old pup). As of now, any thoughts of using her for breeding have been stopped, she will not be bred. She may or may not get spayed.

I will continue to look for a trainer who can help me with her. There are a lot of not-very-good trainers in my area, but I'll be contacting some of the AKC gurus around here, as they probably have more experience with fearful reactive dogs.

I have now heard from a couple of people that one of her bloodlines has been known to produce nervy, edgy dogs. She probably gets it from there, and it's reassuring to know that because it means it might not be something I did horribly wrong.

Several people have stated that this type of dog can still do well in sport venues, so I will continue to pursue that for as long as I continue to own her.

I am currently debating with myself as to whether to send her back to the breeder or not. Keeping her would be an excellent learning experience, and if she can compete in sport (even if it means changing venues) that would be a lovely sense of accomplishment for my ability to work with dogs. I also have to realistically assess my skills and whether or not I can adequately prevent her issues from escalating to the point of being a true liability...if all I want is to work with fearful, reactive dogs I can get a 10-pound dog and work with the issues with a lot less risk. I won't make any decisions of that type though until she is out of heat.

I am open to any and all suggestions for management and training.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Wait until she's out of heat, and I mean a couple of months out of heat, and see what her temperament is like. If it returns to normal, meaning normal for her, then you might want to consider having her spayed since the hormonal changes during a heat cycle don't seem to be doing her any good. If she doesn't change, then I wouldn't spay her for that reason. I'd still consider spaying her since you won't be breeding her, but at the same time spaying a dog is a major physical change. I've seen it have both positive and negative effects on the dogs personality, and none at all. So it might help her, but it also might make things worse.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Kadi, 
I do know about spay incontinence and some other studies done in regards to medical issues if owner does not wait until dog is mature to spay. 

I am wondering, given your experience, specifically about the personality/behavioural changes that can become worse after spay? Examples?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I haven't seen personality changes in my own dogs after a spay, although I have seen physical changes (less heat tolerance, lower stamina level). But I have friends who have spayed their dog and they have become more nervous afterwards, another became more dog aggressive, some just seemed to loose the 'spark'. In some dogs it just seems to take a personality trait and amplify it a little more. I don't know why, and I don't know that you would even notice in a dog spayed at a young age, since they can change so much just with maturity. But hormones do effect moods, so it would stand to reason lack of can also effect them.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Thanks for that description. My previous female I got when I was young was in fact spay early. Had males ever since...good information and thank you.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Marcy, where are you located?


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## Natalie Heath (Apr 18, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> But I have friends who have spayed their dog and they have become more nervous afterwards, another became more dog aggressive, some just seemed to loose the 'spark'. In some dogs it just seems to take a personality trait and amplify it a little more. I don't know why, and I don't know that you would even notice in a dog spayed at a young age, since they can change so much just with maturity. But hormones do effect moods, so it would stand to reason lack of can also effect them.


I wonder if it has something to do with the experience as well as the hormonal changes? For example, I have a fearful dog and I'm loathe to spay her because I know that being at the hospital will totally freak her out. I don't want to undo all of the hard work that I've put into her and I'm afraid that the experience will set her back big time. 

Natalie


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Natalie Heath said:


> I wonder if it has something to do with the experience as well as the hormonal changes? For example, I have a fearful dog and I'm loathe to spay her because I know that being at the hospital will totally freak her out. I don't want to undo all of the hard work that I've put into her and I'm afraid that the experience will set her back big time.


I had one dog with separation anxiety who needed to be sedated for...hmmm...I forget what. The vet gave him an injection of something that made him sleepy and left him in the exam room with me. They brought him in the back, did the procedure and then brought him back to me for him to wake up.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

It's possible it was the experience at the vets, but I have to wonder. 

In humans we accept that "that time" can make some people very moody, and so can a hysterectomy or going through menopause. I've known woman who take hormone supplements, and if they don't they have some major mood swings. If we can accept that in humans the hormones or lack of can affect personality/temperament then why not in dogs? People talk all the time about how you shouldn't neuter a male, you will take away his "fire", he won't be as good of a working dog, etc. So why wouldn't there be changes in a female if she is spayed?


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## Natalie Heath (Apr 18, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> It's possible it was the experience at the vets, but I have to wonder.
> 
> In humans we accept that "that time" can make some people very moody, and so can a hysterectomy or going through menopause. I've known woman who take hormone supplements, and if they don't they have some major mood swings. If we can accept that in humans the hormones or lack of can affect personality/temperament then why not in dogs? People talk all the time about how you shouldn't neuter a male, you will take away his "fire", he won't be as good of a working dog, etc. So why wouldn't there be changes in a female if she is spayed?


I did say "as well as the hormonal changes". :smile:

I totally agree that spaying and neutering can affect temperament. But I think that for a nervous or fearful dog, the experience at the vet's office for the surgery can also affect it. 

My older Husky/BC mix had his teeth cleaned this past winter. For a month afterwards his separation anxiety topped out. There were no hormonal changes in that surgery.

Natalie


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I've seen lots of dogs go through a squirrelly, fearful, dingbat stage at a year old and I've seen it go away as quickly as it comes. I think her age, hormones and the fact that she has just come into season may have resulted in a "perfect storm" of stupidness. I agree with Kadi, give her a couple of months to settle down before you make big decisions about her future.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Didn't have time last time to go more into detail LOL But from what you have described, and considering that it is probably also your opinion, I say junk the dog. AND HERES WHY. First off, going through coniptions to work a dog with aromatherapy oils and flower gels and what not is not worth it in protection sports. Do you tell the knuckle head to wait while you get out the proper scent???? No, you just get rid of the dog.

Wrestling with problem dogs has become a passion here in the US, and while solving the problems can be interesting, perhaps even enough to write a book about, basically, what happens is the populace becomes inured to the fact that most of their dogs are complete and utter junk, and put up with tremendous amounts of difficulties, as opposed to just trashing the shitter and getting better to work with, which would do the dog population a great deal of good. Look at the big picture, look at the amount of time this dog will take away from your life, with (no matter how hard you try) so so results. Call Lisa Maze or Kadi Thingvall and get something with tons less problems.



Quoteon't forget, when the Mali was in "danger of surpassing the GSD", the German breeders put their thinking caps on and started breeding the GSD who could hold his own against the Malinois. 

Little late on this, but there was no danger, the Mals surpassed the GSD. Also, again the ugly GSD crossed into Mals rumor has arisen. Other than KNPV, where they would take a dog off the street if it bit like a SOB, What line of Mals are you thinking of, when you are talking about GSD crossed in????

I am seeing Mal characteristics in the GSD more than ever, so maybe they put the Mals into the GSD. I know the Belgians have.

Just curious, I see the rumor, but never anything to substantiate it. Basically I am crying Bullshit.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

I agree with giving the dog more time. 

I don't think dogs should be disposed of over correctible problems. The best animals I know are also the most difficult to deal with, at least at some point in their lives. You put a lot of work and, I hope, caring, into these dogs. Why should anyone give up without giving a try? 

Things like fearfullness, and separation anxiety are not so tough to solve. At least, not in my experience. And in the experience of lots of others as well. One can generally (over 90% of the time) solve these kinds of problems in less time than it takes me to earn the purchase price of a new dog, or place the old one.

If you go see Julie Kinsey's Texas A&M photo set, you will see a dog that was really difficult to manage. He is now 4 and no one can tell he ever had a problem. The photos are taken at a place where he was mobbed by people who did not know how to act around dogs. He is doing some tasks which require self-control and careful thought. I see it every day. Not all, but many, dogs who are extremely fearful, aggressive, flighty, restless, anxious - a week later are dramatically changed and continue to balance themselves from that day forward. They just need some coping skills and some support, in the majority of cases (over 95%).

And it does not mean the dog is no longer good for work. I believe you will find her better.

Most people have trouble coping at one point or another, whether they show it by crying, quitting, over-striving, having anxiety attacks, or by being belligerent. We don't give up on them. Our dogs are at least as good an investment of our time.


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## Julie Kinsey (Feb 10, 2008)

Kayce Cover said:


> I agree with giving the dog more time.
> 
> I don't think dogs should be disposed of over correctible problems. The best animals I know are also the most difficult to deal with, at least at some point in their lives. You put a lot of work and, I hope, caring, into these dogs. Why should anyone give up without giving a try?
> 
> ...


Hi Kayce,

George is almost 6 now, we've known you since he was a large over the top pup. I keep all my dogs, save the ones who come for an obedience title and then go back to the kennel. In a different situation, I might not have kept him, or he could have been a headline, or any number of different scenarios. He's not been the highlight of my obedience career, but is my partner in many other areas and has been a good representative of his breed. The bottom line is I love him, he's special to me, and I've learned a lot about training with him. Because of our SATS based training relationship, he is more valuable to me than any of my previous dogs who comparatively ran circles around him in the sports I participate in. 

George has a (repeat breeding) littermate brother who is one point shy of being a natural eared AKC Ch, has U-CDX, CDX, TD, is training in utility, weightpull, agility, and TDX. He's owned by a friend who also has a Sch III UD U-CDX VST Amstaff; she was disappointed that he didn't pan out for Schutzhund, but she loves him and has trained him in venues he _can_ do.

Marcy has to make her own decision depending on her lifestyle and expectations for the dog. If you decide to keep her, SATS training is an incredible experience and sophisticated tool to have in your training bag.

Jeff, sorry the aromatherapy oils, flower gels, and whatnot didn't work out for you. ;>)

Julie K


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## Natalie Heath (Apr 18, 2008)

Julie Kinsey said:


> she was disappointed that he didn't pan out for Schutzhund, but she loves him and has trained him in venues he _can_ do.
> 
> Marcy has to make her own decision depending on her lifestyle and expectations for the dog. If you decide to keep her, SATS training is an incredible experience and sophisticated tool to have in your training bag.


Hi Julie,

I have a young female who did not turn out for Schutzhund either. But she is an AWESOME disc dog and I'm having so much fun with her it's not funny!! :razz: 

Could you lead me to some info on SATS training? I have no ideas what it is.

Thanks.

Natalie


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> First off, going through coniptions to work a dog with aromatherapy oils and flower gels and what not is not worth it in protection sports.


The aromatherapy and flower oils are for me. I need to relax after spending the day with this dog. I am not getting rid of my lavender!!


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