# Positions



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Looking for some finer points on training the positions. I have learned a few lessons on my own about her and this exercise already by trail and error :???:

Vid one on a box (her kennel):
Things start well, then fall apart at around 30 sec, and again a bit later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj48EeUMUa0

Vid two on ground with barriers:
She gets all the positions here, but the session was short. I feel like she is rushing me (I know I am supposed to be in control here LOL), like if I pause extra long, she will start anticipating. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj48EeUMUa0


Questions:

1- What do you do when your dog starts just guessing and not listening? (see vid number one)

2- What are some different ways of using corrections in positions?

3- Are there benefits to longer or shorter sessions? 

4- Do they get more super solid on these if you just keep at it?

5-What about intermittant rewards/praise/feedback? Does it just end up getting in the way eventually? I don't know if I am making sense here, but eventually they have to know they did the right thing, without being told they did the right thing....](*,)

Any other words of wisdom are welcome.


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

both videos are the same? or am i going crazy


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Tyree Johnson said:


> both videos are the same? or am i going crazy


Aw crap, sorry...this is the second video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHIc10UV0e8


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I think the dog looks good, I wouldn't push anything at that age too much..8 don't know why you talk to her in French though.

Are you related to Ann Coulter ?? She ain't French either.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The dog wasn't guessing, you have a reward based training system, and you forgot to layer in a reward.

You went too ****ing long without a reward in the first video. You also make no mention of how long you have been working on this and all sorts of pertinent information.

What do I know, everyone is a dog trainer.

Your dog looked good until you botched the reward sequence.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> don't know why you talk to her in French though.


Some reasons...(never said they were good ones)

Wanted to have different set of commands from my other dog so I could tell them things seperately.

Didn't want public at the ski hill to be able to give her commands...they LOVE to do that=;

I am a fan of FR so french is rad

Celebrating my countries bilingual heritage  (I know Alberta doesn't believe in that crap LOL)



Gerry Grimwood said:


> Are you related to Ann Coulter ?? She ain't French either.


Good lord no. She makes me want to stab my eyes out with a fork.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Good lord no. She makes me want to stab my eyes out with a fork.


Cuz she looks like she could be an Auntie or something


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dog wasn't guessing, you have a reward based training system, and you forgot to layer in a reward.


Good one. Love it!



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You went too ****ing long without a reward in the first video. You also make no mention of how long you have been working on this and all sorts of pertinent information.


This is good info. I have been training positions off and on, here and there since she was a pup. Mostly on her kennel box, only very recently moved to the ground. 

I have only recently started to go longer without rewarding, not knowing if that is a right thing or a wrong thing to do. You are saying it is a wrong thing. It seemed like when I was rewarding too often she was thinking if I didn't reward...she was wrong and that caused problems too. So I take it there is a sweet spot? 

How often do you reward? Random? How long at the longest?



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What do I know, everyone is a dog trainer.


What does this mean, and how does it relate to me?


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## sarah lewis (May 27, 2011)

Take my advice with a grain of salt...

But I always make the rewards variable until the dog is imprinted with the command.

in the first video you waited until the dog messed up and then gave the reward, if you do this often the dog could be messing up on purpose in order to prompt you to give the reward.

Variate them, like a slot machine (it can't be predictable for the dog). I always take stock in my head about when I am going to reward (Ok after 3 commands I am going to reward, then 1 then 5) so its totally random and I have decided before hand instead of the dog giving me the ques on when to reward. Also change the rewards from food (sometimes small value and higher value) sometimes verbal praise and sometimes play. The dog should never know what its going to get, but only know its getting something good.

Also at the point where you need to repeat a command you know the dog knows and you need to repeat it a second time with no resolve, I would walk away for 10 minutes and then come back so the dog gets some kind of "punishment" for not obeying the first time.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Okay, I'll take a stab at it 

The dog gets bored/frustrated with it, hence the barking at you.

The second thing I notice, the only times you praise in the first vid is when the dog makes a mistake and fixes it? 

If you want to see if she's guessing, repeat one position command several times. My dogs that just sorta know this game may try a few position changes to see what happens. My dogs that know it, will hold position, maybe halfway repeat the motion to that position, snort, glare at me like I'm an idiot. LOL


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> Okay, I'll take a stab at it
> 
> The dog gets bored/frustrated with it, hence the barking at you.


Yes. She is also VERY excitable. Usually she is frothing at the mouth, drooling, teeth chattering too. I try and train it after dinner now and when she is tired!

Like I said earlier, I have been pushing longer, and it seems that may not be a good thing. 



Anna Kasho said:


> The second thing I notice, the only times you praise in the first vid is when the dog makes a mistake and fixes it?
> 
> If you want to see if she's guessing, repeat one position command several times. My dogs that just sorta know this game may try a few position changes to see what happens. My dogs that know it, will hold position, maybe halfway repeat the motion to that position, snort, glare at me like I'm an idiot. LOL


Yes, Sara alluded to that too. I noticed that watching the vid. I was pushing the time, missed a chance to reward lots of good stuff, got into a sh** show, then felt like she was all confused and I guess I felt I had to reward her when she finally did what I asked. I see how that is no good.

I used to praise very often (good) after doing the right thing...but then I noticed if I didn't say good, she was more likely to offer another behaviour before I gave one...like she thought she was wrong. I may have swung the pendulum too far however.

I have just started repeating commands occasionally. I get some of the shifting into the same position, and some changing position....so...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

what the hell camera was that - head mounted. genuine question


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> what the hell camera was that - head mounted. genuine question


Go Pro


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What Jeff said, in particular the reward sequence!
To much repetition of any exercise can become boring to a dog. Get a couple of good sequences and stop.
Another thing
When you told the dog "NO" and then gave the command again it had more of a threat in it then the first time. Be consistent! If some dogs pick up on that difference it may teach them to ignore any command that isn't a threat. Then you wind up going through the routine screaming at the dog.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

ha knew it, awesome.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> What Jeff said, in particular the reward sequence!
> To much repetition of any exercise can become boring to a dog. Get a couple of good sequences and stop.
> Another thing
> When you told the dog "NO" and then gave the command again it had more of a threat in it then the first time. Be consistent! If some dogs pick up on that difference it may teach them to ignore any command that isn't a threat. Then you wind up going through the routine screaming at the dog.


LOL....I have recently started extra enunciating and it has really helped, especially the "coucher". But I HATE the way it sounds. I am picking up what you are putting down...thanks.

I have found myself getting frustrated with this exercise too. Not all directed at the dog either, but also myself, because I trained those issues LOL. I have had to walk away and come back to it before.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Look at it like heeling. Sooo many just start taking off down the field after the position is learned. No consideration to reward until they reach 20-50, whatever paces. The dog learns it's not going to get that reward until it reaches that number the handler decides on so the early heeling turns to crap.
!Random reward!
In that video your looking for that mystical 50 "paces."
The dog need to understand that the reward is ALWAYS a possibility with the very next behavior.
!RANDOM! :wink:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

And here I thought dogs were multilingual...apparently not 

http://vimeo.com/24979480


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> And here I thought dogs were multilingual...apparently not
> 
> http://vimeo.com/24979480



That dog looks like it's taught the handler that his first command doesn't mean crap! JMHO of course! :-D


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> That dog looks like it's taught the handler that his first command doesn't mean crap! JMHO of course! :-D


You're absolutely correct, he has to have time to associate the voice with the protocol...how astute of you to notice.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You're absolutely correct, he has to have time to associate the voice with the protocol...how astute of you to notice.


:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: O


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: O


You're a funny guy. O


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You're a funny guy. O



Thank you.......:-k :-k ......I think! :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What does this mean, and how does it relate to me?

How do you think it relates to you ?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: What does this mean, and how does it relate to me?
> 
> How do you think it relates to you ?


I don't' know, that is why I asked. If I had to guess it is that you think I am a shitty trainer, and felt the need to tell me that? Pretty sure I never said I was all that and a bag of chips, and came asking for advice/help.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jennifer 

when I work on the box I like to make the dog only use its front legs from the sit to the down and down to a sit. This ends any chance of creeping. from a sit to a stand I only allow the use of the back legs.

some folks may do it different but I like the picture it presents.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Hey Jen,

Way way way too many positions with no reward. Very rarely do I string 3 positions together with out reward, and quite often I still reward the first position. If I do string 6 together, the next are highly rewarded one positions, or one and two positions. I work really hard at getting the verbal command solid before ever worrying about distance. If you can get the commands on verbal and super solid, the distance won't matter.

In regards to holding the position.... that is another variable you should train for separately. Do one at a time, high rate of reinforcement adding time to the position slowly. Riker has a bitch of a time with the stand, he doesn't like to hold it at all, so we do more stand stay type of excercises - apart from the positions. The minute the bum starts to go down, negative marker. He went thru a phase of crouching with his back end, half sit half stand, but I didn't reward for it and it eventually went away.

I also find when I give a non reward marker that I have to break from the session and reset - the reason being that riker learned in the begining that he could just make the mistake and take the position after 2 commands. I had to make it very clear that he had lost that opportunity to get the reward.

It is always a work in progress Jen...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

If she is stringing 6 changes together and gets them right why not skip the food and goto the higher value reward like a tug or ball and end on that high note.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

There are some overwhelming themes here....

Too long before reward. So that answers my questions about how long sessions should be.

Also answered my last question that intermittant rewards/praise/feedback need not be phased out. I can keep things random.

Did anyone watch the second vid?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHIc10UV0e8

I am going to assume that this is about as long as I should ever go without a reward, and not very often.

Can I also assume that no one here uses corrections for when the dog makes a mistake (was one of my questions), or we are just not talking about it? Just wondering, not saying I am going to correct her for my bad training just yet or even ever. I think the closest I got was Sara suggesting time out for errors. I have never tried that, always wondered about the dog really making the connection.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I have done it like this in the past--When I proof the dog...it is in a square made of pvc pipe. Any part of his body touches the pvc or he gets the position wrong he is corrected with the ecollar.

I have never corrected while still on the box


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> Jennifer
> 
> when I work on the box I like to make the dog only use its front legs from the sit to the down and down to a sit. This ends any chance of creeping. from a sit to a stand I only allow the use of the back legs.
> 
> some folks may do it different but I like the picture it presents.


Will I TRIED to teach it so the front legs always stay in the same position, it was new for me. Fold back into a down from a stand, kick out the back legs from a sit to a stand, pull in the back legs from a down to a sit.... Limited success LOL. So far no huge problems creeping forward. If anything she seems to move back on her stand.

I know what you are talking about though, I taught my toller more like how you are talking. His bounce between downs and sits is a cool picture.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> I have done it like this in the past--When I proof the dog...it is in a square made of pvc pipe. Any part of his body touches the pvc or he gets the position wrong he is corrected with the ecollar.
> 
> I have never corrected while still on the box


Thanks.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

You are almost where you want to be--just keep at it with works for you.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Can I also assume that no one here uses corrections for when the dog makes a mistake (was one of my questions), or we are just not talking about it? Just wondering, not saying I am going to correct her for my bad training just yet or even ever. I think the closest I got was Sara suggesting time out for errors. I have never tried that, always wondered about the dog really making the connection.


If my dog is not paying attention I do correct for that. If he is trying to figure stuff out I do not.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> There are some overwhelming themes here....
> 
> Too long before reward. So that answers my questions about how long sessions should be.
> 
> ...


Hey Jenn,

Pika looks nice Phin, Sasha and I miss her. I wish you were closer so I could see her more often. I see Legend quite a bit and she is really rocking the flyball lanes her handler is saying she maybe the fastest Malinois in North America now and her competitive debut will be in August, I'll be there to video it. She has already jumped the fence and stolen others tugs at flyball. 

If you were going to compete in FR at one point, look at the FR rule book for your answer about how long sessions should be. Which is 6 changes, so I never do more than 8-9 when training. There is only 5 seconds or so in between deputy judge instructions for referance as well. 

Some guidelines I use with Pika's Mom and brother are ..



Get her used to a belly leash. I have done this with Phin and he drags one around at different times throwing the ball doing other OB etc. This way someone can be behind him can guide him into a stand if you want. More on how I use this in this thread about the stand. http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f50/teaching-ringsport-stand-18598/ I never did this with Mom but in hindsight it has worked well with Phin I wish I did this with her.
 Mix in rewards and praise when she does it right. Even if it means walking all the way back to her to give a small piece of food or a scratch behind the ear.
If I have to correct I do not use an e-collar, so I have to use my voice. I put more 'pressure' in my voice intonation and take a threatening step forward on any second command. I never use a 3rd as I will then walk up and manipulate the dog into the position by leash and then reinforce the position by giving the dog praise and caressing the dog for doing the right thing. Then the next time she/he gets the command and if the dog does it right right away I reward. It is important to reward and reward often to keep the dog engaged. These lines I've found respond better to that style of training than using heavier compulsion. Sometimes the threat of impending compulsion works better than the compulsion itself to change the behaviour in a positive way.
 Always end the session on the position where the dog had the trouble in the session so it can end on a good note where it struggled when you give the WOOHOO reward.
In Ringsport the positions exercise always ends in a recall but in training it is more important to reinforce the dog to not 'creep' forward, so the only time I recall my dogs from the positions exercise is in a trial situation. I always throw the reward toy behind then recall.
My bed of nails has changed as well. I've seen an interesting setup with fishing monofilament and that was used as a barrier. The dog doesn't see it but sure feels it, if it forges. 

Hope this helps.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With my older dog loss of reward is as hard on him as a physical correction. 
My goofy younger GSD needs a tap on the head occasionally for loosing attention but anything more then that and I have to wonder what I'm doing wrong. He's waaay to soft (with me) to use much physical correction.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I only watched the second video, but it looks like you're doing a great job.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

First of all: you are doing a good job 



Jennifer Coulter said:


> 1- What do you do when your dog starts just guessing and not listening? (see vid number one)


Don't keep looking at her. Looking her in the eyes gives her the feeling she has to do something.
Give her the command. When she does it: "good girl" and look away from her. Even move to another spot while confirming she's doing fine. Then look back at her and give another command.
Also don't wait too long between 2 commands with a young dog.




Jennifer Coulter said:


> 2- What are some different ways of using corrections in positions?


Don't punish. The dog shouldn't have another choice but to do what you ask and then you reward (voice).
We never teach positions on a table or box, nor with barriers, because when you leave those away there's a big chance you have to start all over again because the dog moves towards you.
We make the dog used to wearing a collar around the waist.
Then we attach a line to a fence and to the waist collar. Another line to the neck collar and you hold that one. You stand a few steps away from the dog and she shouldn't be able to move forward because of the waist collar.
Then you give a command and when she doesn't do it, you DON'T repeat the command but you just use the leashes to make her do it. As soon as she does it: "good girl"
After a while you can leave the front leash away and when she knows the positions very well you do the same with the leash on the waist. Last thing to leave away is the waist collar.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> 3- Are there benefits to longer or shorter sessions?


Your sessions are WAY too long. Even what you describe as the "short" session is too long.
Better repeat a few times a day but keep the sessions very short




Jennifer Coulter said:


> 5-What about intermittant rewards/praise/feedback? Does it just end up getting in the way eventually? I don't know if I am making sense here, but eventually they have to know they did the right thing, without being told they did the right thing....](*,)


We only use vocal rewards for the positions. Other rewards are invitations to move forward


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> Don't keep looking at her. Looking her in the eyes gives her the feeling she has to do something.
> Give her the command. When she does it: "good girl" and look away from her. Even move to another spot while confirming she's doing fine. Then look back at her and give another command.
> Also don't wait too long between 2 commands with a young dog.
> 
> ...


Martine,

I'm going to give the waist collar a try with Belatucadrus
I lose too many points for change of positions. If he does
OK in the fall trying for the 2nd leg of his MR I I'll give you all the credit? ;-)


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks Martine and Geoff for the explanations.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oh what the heck, dog looks good Jen ,but, here is what will help in training. "Always" speak softly, and never get frustated. Dog are way more intuitive than people so take a few minutes before you training session and chill out. "Always" have a picture in your mind of the dog doing everything perfectly and never that he is going to fail.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Waist Collar*

Martine,

I put the waist collar on Belatu and he went into a "stand/Steh"
pretty easily.....then he got stuck and couldn't/wouldn't do a sit or down.......now what?  Should I have a 2nd handler on the waist leash (instead of hooked over a fence), so they can put some slack in the waist line so he isn't stretched out?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

*Re: Waist Collar*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Should I have a 2nd handler on the waist leash (instead of hooked over a fence), so they can put some slack in the waist line so he isn't stretched out?


Not Martine, but yes .. that's what we/I do from time to time. The 2nd person is just a guide for the dog and you can have the 2nd person in the back put light pressure to make the stand or by a 'light' line whip via flick of the wrist giving slack on the line for sit/down. 

Most likely the dog doesn't have a clue what the belly leash is. If you haven't done a few sessions with the belly leash playing ball and/or other OB before he probably doesn't get it and is stressed over it. The waist leash should mean nothing to the dog, it's just a another tool in the box that the dog needs to be neutral about.

My young dog (Jenn's dog's brother) when he doesn't have a waist leash on and if I try positions I've had 1 or 2 sessions where he maybe distracted in what he is doing. The minute I put the waist leash on him it's like a light bulb goes on and he remembers even without a 2nd handler/helper behind. (I've never back tied him with a waist leash either.) Then I'll take it off and we have an awesome session.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff,

Could you explain the use of a light whip? Do you mean like a buggy whip that I'll be holding? How is it attached to the dog?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

As Geoff already said, make sure he is used to the waist collar before doing exercises with it.
In the beginning don't stand too far away from your dog. Like 2 meters would be ok.
Also make sure that the leash on the neck collar is under his chin.
When he is in "stand" position and you command "sit", you can approach a little bit and make an upward movement under his chin.
Also for the down, you can help him with the front leash if necessary.
A second person holding the back leash is great, but this person's helps should be as minimal as possible. He is there to prevent that the dog gets stuck.

It is normal that he is a bit tense the first time. Once he knows what it is about, that will be ok.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

HI Martine

Thanks for the suggestions. I have a short cord waist leash I used to use to help keep position on the Defense of handler. It is easier to keep from slipping then a regular full length waist leash. I think if I put a loop in the end I can attach a leash? A second leash in front will help. I was trying to get away without it


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

*Re: Waist line*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Geoff,
> 
> Could you explain the use of a light whip? Do you mean like a buggy whip that I'll be holding? How is it attached to the dog?



It's the waist line we were talking about Thomas not a buggy whip. [-X 



Geoff Empey said:


> The 2nd person is just a guide for the dog and you can have the 2nd person in the back put light pressure to make the stand or by a 'light' line whip via flick of the wrist giving slack on the line for sit/down.


So I will try to clear on what my team has done with waist leash. 

Stand/Steh what ever you use as your language if the dog doesn't do the position. On the 2nd command the helper guides the dog into position with the waist leash, by gently pulling the dog up into the position. For sit or a down we still use the waist leash if the handler has to do a 2nd command for that position the helper on the waist leash flicks the waist leash from the back of the dog. It is akin to straightening a garden hose where you snap it to take a kink out. The wrist flick just travels down the leash and reminds the dog the command, it's not a brutal thing just a flick and then the line is slack. It may not work with every dog or even with every trainer methods, though it has served me well. It doesn't have to be done for very long either before just the line on the waist qeues the dog that it won't get away with disobedience. It's a boring exercise for the dog and it is easy for any of our dogs to show displacement behaviour training this exercise. So the beginning of it you need to be square with training it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff

Got it. A light "whip" of the waist leash with a flick of the wrist, for the sit and down. NOT an actual whip. Sometimes I have to translate Canadian into Amurican English ;-)


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

*Re: Waist line*



Geoff Empey said:


> It's the waist line we were talking about Thomas not a buggy whip. [-X
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We never work with a second command (we don't want a dog to know this is an option). Only one command and if the dog doesn't respond immediately, he is guided into the right position and then praised (like "good boy, this is "SIT"").


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: Waist line*



Martine Loots said:


> We never work with a second command (we don't want a dog to know this is an option). Only one command and if the dog doesn't respond immediately, he is guided into the right position and then praised (like "good boy, this is "SIT"").



AMEN on no second command! That only teaches the dog it can refuse the first one.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

*Re: Waist line*



Bob Scott said:


> AMEN on no second command! That only teaches the dog it can refuse the first one.


As I posted


> *if the handler has to do a 2nd command* for that position, the helper on the waist leash flicks the waist leash from the back of the dog


 it's not a 2nd command exactly the same as the first it is a 2nd command with a correction. Whatever method the handler deems needed for the particular dog or what the handler is physically capable of at the time to manipulate the dog into the position. But if the dog blows off the 1st command there isn't an option for the dog as something is coming down the pipe for the dog, e-collar, waist line, or manipulated by hand. Me I like to keep it with a physical touch for the dog and it knows if it blows a command. I'm on my way to make the dog take the position. Again to be clear with no violence or brutality, you get a lot more bees with honey than vinegar with this exercise. In trial I always have good scores with this exercise so I have success with my style of training of this exercise.


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