# Maremmas



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Had one of my farmer buds call me today wanting to know if I knew of any Maremma breeders in the midwest/south part of the country. He's had good and bad luck with Pyrenees. His sheep are spread out over 65 acres and he doesn't want to fool with bringing them in at night. I've moved and there is definitely a coyote problem so I'm investigating LGDs as well although I think I may be able to get by without. But he tells me there is a reason that with where I live, everyone has a guard dog. 

Anyone know of Maremma breeders in the midwest/southern region, please fill me in. 

Terrasita


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

No Maremmas, but I know of a breeder in NC of Estrela Mountain dogs, which might be useful. 

Estrela Mountain Dogs is a portuguese livestock guardian breed. 

If interested, let me know and I'll forward the contact details. 



Regards


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Don't know of any breeders, but you might want to consider Akbash dogs, too. Friend has one on his farm keeping his sheep and horses safe from coyotes and wolves. He's pretty happy with the dog.


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## David Krider (Mar 19, 2011)

After using many different breeds of LGD and crosses the most important criteria, in our opinion,in selection of the dog or breed is to get one from someone who is using them for what you intend them to do. There is as much difference among a breed as among different breeds. Where you are located at, and your personal preference of style of dog will influence how you like the dog.
Like any working dog some have stronger instincts for their job, but they do need some direction on what is required of them. They are not set and forget dogs.
Our personal preference goes to dogs that don't just want to bark and scare the threat away, but would like to catch and eat the threat. We like a shorter coated dog in our area that doesn't drag ten feet of throne bush along in their tail. Our preferred dog may not be suitable for someone in a different situation.
Just our opinion from an opinionated dog fan.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I have a friend who was breeding Maremmas but is no longer breeding them. She still has some as her LSGs so she should know if there is anyone out your way that breeds them. I seem to understand that she initially got hers directly from Italy though. http://eweniquebordercollies.com/home.cfm


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

I don't know any, but there was a tv show on WI public TV here about wolves in northern WI and how people were adapting. THey featured a family with a few hundred sheep and used Maremmas to protect them and they're in the heart of wolf country.
His name was Larry Fickbohm and his email is [email protected] You could ask where they got their's from.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

Here's a clip from the show I found if interested http://wpt2.org/npa/IW738wolfdogs.cfm


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Some of our farmers are starting to use Maremmas as wild dogs (dingo crosses with domestic dogs mainly) are becoming a huge problem, causing huge losses over thousands of acres.

The people that I get my hay from have a sheep stud and they use Maremmas, quite successfully apparently and they have a fairly large area. It pays to be choosy as like with sheepdogs you have to get a good quality one for it to work.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the leads. I'll follow-up and see what info I'm able to find. And David we discussed those aspects today---warding off vs. ability actually engage.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Thanks everyone for the leads. I'll follow-up and see what info I'm able to find. And David we discussed those aspects today---warding off vs. ability actually engage.
> 
> Terrasita



The LGD that likes to engage is going to have a short working life! I don't care how big or tough it is. Coyotes will double team a dog in a heart beat.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

i would suggest Turkish guarding dogs, like the Akbash.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> The LGD that likes to engage is going to have a short working life! I don't care how big or tough it is. Coyotes will double team a dog in a heart beat.


I don't know Bob my friends Marremas are pretty destructive to other canine species unless they were raised specifically with them. If yes the LSG pursues the coyotes/wolves/coydogs into the bush the tables can be turned. But the dogs I see stay with the flock and have had confirmed coyote altercations that may not be kills but seeing the coyotes with flaps of skin hanging from their heads and buttocks gimping around a few miles away in the field viewed by binoculars days later, the coyotes will probably die any ways. 

The Marremas that I see are not friendly at all with strangers either frankly they scare the crap out of me when I go there for herding lessons. Both for my own dogs and my safety. Which is a problem with any LSG worth its salt, they don't differentiate. Which is why personally if I was doing it myself I'd think a Donkey or Llama first from my own experience with LSGs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maremmano Herdenschutzhund from Italy

If you have trouble getting good German Sheperds into the USA (hearsay from this forum) how on earth will you find a good Maremmano?

They have very dense coats which make them ideal for cold climates and their size can make them imposing.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

*Re Akbash*

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/a/akbashdog.htm

When I read that this dog is equipped with *keen* hearing, I didn't read much further.

I am sure there are very good Akbash guardian dogs and Mammeranos around but trying to find one nowadays will be difficult in my mind.

I think they wanted to use them in Vaud in Switzerland to protect the sheep herds from the wolf but I think I would prefer a Briard!!

I keep reading that the size of these dogs is a plus - it's not the size in my mind - it's the heart that's in the dog to protect that is more important.

I think I'd set a pair of Jack Russells on the "enemy".


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I think I'd set a pair of Jack Russells on the "enemy".



Lions and tigers and bears even! :grin:
My hunting partner had a little 12 lb working JRT bitch and when they went to her family's cabin in Oregon they had a black bear living under the cabin. That little bassid flushed the bear and they danced around for a few min with the dog running around and even under the bear. The bear couldn't touch the little shit and it finally broke and ran for a tree. Heart trumps power any day. ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

And crazy beats big lol


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I dont know much about coyotes but with wild dogs I thought the idea of a Maremma is that it other canines are less likely to come into another large dogs marked territory. 

Some of those donkeys are mean mothers LOL. They scare the shit out of me too. When I lived on a smaller property I had a neighbours donkey get into one of my paddocks and next thing I had this thing intent on killing me. Darn thing treed me and I was stuck until it decided to mosey on home and I could make a break for it. I always eye strange donkeys with a certain amount of suspicion LOL

I only know one Maremma that guards a flock and it largely ignores me as long as I dont look it in the eye and engage with it and I move in a non threatening manner.


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## David Krider (Mar 19, 2011)

Engage or to just warn away. Our feeling and why we want a dog that wants to engage is the same reason a cow dog will not move a stubborn cow unless the cow knows the dog will bite. 
Predators make their living finding something they can eat and not get hurt in the process. If your dog will not engage the coyote, neighbors dog, bear, lion, golden eagle, whatever your predator is, the dog will simply bark all night while your livestock are destroyed.
Some areas and predators require more than one guard dog. These are dogs that will lick a new lamb clean, if the mother will permit, and not harm it, crush a 20 to 40 lb coyote skull and attack a lion or bear head on.
It would be very difficult trying to find a dog that could kill a cougar or bear, but what makes it work is the dog or dogs don't know this. 
The short story is a GOOD guard dog owns his flock, is very territorial, and responds to aggression with whatever amount of aggression is required. 
These dogs were not developed to bark and tell the herder that there was trouble, they were developed to eliminate or chase the trouble away.
We find guard dogs come in different levels of aggression, just like police dogs, I would pick a dog, or dogs from a background of the situation you will have.
Donkey's, mainly jennys, make very good guard animals except for cougars who like to eat the donkey. 
Dogs have to be fed, donkeys eat what the livestock are eating.
If we have large multiple predators, we have large multiple guard dogs.
If the predator is coyotes, who usually distract the dog, or dogs while another is getting dinner, we try to have smaller pastures to better allow the dog to control the area.
These are just my opinions, I don't mean to preach.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I did not know what a Marrema dog looked like so binged for some information. This was an informative site.http://www.vk7krj.com/our.htm for anyone who did not know the breed like me.It even said these dogs are bought then people cannot handle them and many end up in rescue. He had some useful links.

Also had the link to their rescue.


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## Tony Castle (Jan 17, 2012)

> Our personal preference goes to dogs that don't just want to bark and scare the threat away, but would like to catch and eat the threat. We like a shorter coated dog in our area that doesn't drag ten feet of throne bush along in their tail.


Why is that? Doesn't seem practical for a livestock guardian to be forcing unnecessary fights, win or lose it's going to get injured doing that often, and it's not a job where the dog can really take time off to licks it's wounds. They're supposed to just be left out with the sheep 24/7. 
Most LGDs in general should only fight as a last resort, not be "predatory" really at all. 

If you wanted to try and erradicate coyotes or feral dogs from an area you'd persecute them with sighthounds. 

An uncle of mine (or brother of my uncle technically) breeds maremmas for his own sheep farm, but he lives in australia.


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## David Krider (Mar 19, 2011)

Tony, there are no unnecessary fights by a LGD. The predators don't come in to visit, they come in to kill and eat. If the LGD will just bark and only defend himself as a last resort, the stock are going to die. The predators are not dumb, they make their living killing other animals in a way they don't get hurt themselves. If the LGD is sufficiently aggressive, leaves no doubt that it will engage, they seldom have to. The predator will look for an easier meal, perhaps down the road at the neighbors where that dog only barks. 
Unfortunately many people who get a LGD think they just put it with the livestock and it will act on its own. These dogs need direction and socialization at least to the point you can catch them and tie them up, treat any problems they may have, and care for them even though they are very good at living on their own. By the nature of their job they are independent and should be taught basic obedience. Otherwise you just have a wild dog living with your livestock.
In our OPINION after raising thousands of sheep and goats over a period of time in different areas of the country with as many as 7 adult LGD working at one time, the best dogs respond to aggression with the degree of aggression that is necessary to do their job. A good LGD has an instinct for their job just as strong as a Border Collie has to balance, or a Pointer has to point. 
Personal preference and the type of job will usually dictate the type of dog you choose. A shorter road for success is finding someone with dogs doing what you want them to do. There are no shortcuts with any dogs.
Sorry to be so windy, I do enjoy these subjects.


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## Tony Castle (Jan 17, 2012)

> The predators are not dumb, they make their living killing other animals in a way they don't get hurt themselves. If the LGD is sufficiently aggressive, leaves no doubt that it will engage, they seldom have to.


That's just it, for lack of a better term wild predators are cowardly. What I'm saying is a lgd should be happy to let them run away. Of course it shouldn't be bluffing, it should mean business and be willing to engage if the predator wants to push it's luck, but it shouldn't be forcing the issue and chasing after the predator. If the predator is leaving, it should let it leave. 
Some dogs wouldn't, predatory dogs like sighthounds and bulldogs are going to run after a fleeing predator and try to force a fight on it whether it wants one or not, I'm just saying it's not wise for a livestock guardian to be this way inclined. 

There was a study by coppinger which found they're generally not, that they actually avoid fights as much as possible while still staying between the livestock and the predator, and this makes sense to me. He even found that sometimes when skirmishes did take place, they'd be very animated and noisey and cover over a lot of ground, but very little damage would be done to either adversary, like it was more just a big canine-argument with both parties having a strong sense of self preservation restraining them from letting things escalate into a full blown fight. 
As an lgd fan I'd be surprised if you haven't read the study I'm referring to? I would link it but I don't have time to find it this morning, gotta go.


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## David Krider (Mar 19, 2011)

Tony, I think you are agreeing with me. Coppinger's study was one of the first to provide information on LGD in this country and make them available. Predators don't have a difficult time getting away if they want to, but if all the LGD will do is bark than they don't want to. If the dog will only posture and bark then the predator will keep pushing the stakes, because it has nothing to loose. The more committed the dog is, the quicker the predator will leave for an easier meal. After having dogs that stand and bark all night long and having dogs that chase the predator away, the more aggressive dogs have the best work record. We don't try to eradicate the predators we just train them that it is not healthy at our place. Their replacement may be worse than the original problem.
As far as the original topic Maremmas, they are a breed that is still mostly a single purpose animal and may be easier to find a higher percentage of working dogs among them rather than a more popular breed. We have had good experiences with Maremma, Anatolians, Kangal, and crosses.
All dogs are not created equal, get one from someone that is using it like you wish to.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

standing your ground and barking can be a VERY successful and safe way to deter a predator and is done all the time in the wild...its harassment and only a starving predator will ignore it, and if that's the case it would go thru the dog eventually too 
- think tiny jackals protecting a den site driving off lions for one example, but it is found all over nature...size doesn't always matter, and often numbers help even more than size
- to me a good livestock protector has to be alert and intimidating, but not always overpowering, and rarely if ever prey driven


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

canine predators are much diff than feline predators in their hunting strategy, but i would think if a "pack" of coyotes really wants an easy meal they will probably get it one way or the other since they will divert the dog and work as a well coordinated team .... fortunately they don't form packs very often that i know of...but maybe that is changing since they live closer to people and the easy meals nowadays....wolves may be a bigger problem when we take away enuff of their space :-(


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

I think the Turkish Mastiffs are a good option, they are being used sucessfully by the World Wildlife Fund to give to farmers in Nigeria to protect goat herds from Cheetahs and Baboons, formidable predators.

However this is not a job for one dog, I apprecaie your farmer friend doesn't want to fool around with sheep at night, it just sounds a bit wet and selfish asking one dog to take on such a responsible job. 
Then again a pup is no good so he'll get charged top dollar for an adult if he can find one.


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