# malinois vs gsd



## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

why do you prefer the mals or gsd over the other 

many says that the malinois is much better working dog than the gsd but I wonder 

yes the mals are very high drive dogs exstreme prey and fight drive and still very easy to handle 

but is that just because of the pure bad breeding of the GSD beacause the breeders only breed to IPO lines 

i my opinion the mals often dont have any aggresion or defense drive so it is not the best dog for security work where I find the GSD much better and rotweiler 

but I have seen both rotties and gsd with as high a drive as a mal and with high defense drive to 

tell me why and what you think the difference are in the 2 breeds:?::?::?:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mals don't have aggression ?? Keep looking, you are in the show section.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Both breeds has pros and cons. Either breed with the right dog is no better than the other. There's plenty of either out there that will work just fine.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mals don't have aggression ?? Keep looking, you are in the show section.



no it is not the show lines im thinking of only the working lines many of the I know in Denmark says that mals are very high in prey and fight but defense they dont have much of this


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> why do you prefer the mals or gsd over the other
> 
> many says that the malinois is much better working dog than the gsd but I wonder
> 
> ...


Its a vexed question, and the right answer is the one you agree with.
People say the Malinois is a better working dog simply because it destroys the GSD in high level IPO, KNPV, Mondio Ring, French Ring, Belgian Ring, Champagne and many police departments around the world either use Malis or are changing to them. The German Police is now using far more of them and even the Policia Kennels in Slovakia is switching to them.
Theres a saying "you can compete with any breed, but to win you need an Malinois".
However, the top of the food chain GSD is right up there with the top of the food chain Mali. A good dog is where you find it.
You did mention something interesting when you talked about "defence". This to me is where the two breeds go there seperate ways, GSD people "tend" to look for "defence" where as Mali people "tend" to look for "fight". For me I'll take fight over defence every day.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Both breeds has pros and cons. Either breed with the right dog is no better than the other. There's plenty of either out there that will work just fine.



I agree 

I just think it seems harder to find a very good gsd in our time but in the OLD LINES I think they were higher driven that I see today in the gsd sorry but I like the gsd from the old days they were more exstreme in their drives today many seem lazy when I see the handler do balldrive


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

They breed the GSD to make money. Mals are ugly, and have no purpose at all if they cannot do the bitework.

Rest assured, the idiot breeders will crush the Mal into dust in twenty years or so, and we will have another breed we can lament about.

I really liked the line about GSD people looking for defense. Don't even get me started.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> I agree
> 
> I just think it seems harder to find a very good gsd in our time but in the OLD LINES I think they were higher driven that I see today in the gsd sorry but I like the gsd from the old days they were more exstreme in their drives today many seem lazy when I see the handler do balldrive


This is an interesting question. Is it that the GSD has gotten worse (lower drive) or is it just that the Mali has gotten much better and the GSD is compared far more now than it ever did do to the Mali?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The thresholds got higher so they could do retarded Sch, and flop around on the bite like a dead fish.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> no it is not the show lines im thinking of only the working lines many of the I know in Denmark says that mals are very high in prey and fight but defense they dont have much of this


How can a dog have fight without defense?


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> *This is an interesting question. Is it that the GSD has gotten worse (lower drive) or is it just that the Mali has gotten much better and the GSD is compared far more now than it ever did do to the Mali?*


*
* 

no I dont compare to the mal but I compare with the gsd I saw on the training field in the 80 and 90s the where really highly driven exstreme in especially in their prey drive like an mal but today they dont seem that driven


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> They breed the GSD to make money. Mals are ugly, and have no purpose at all if they cannot do the bitework.
> 
> Rest assured, the idiot breeders will crush the Mal into dust in twenty years or so, and we will have another breed we can lament about.
> 
> I really liked the line about GSD people looking for defense. Don't even get me started.



can you explain 

I do hope that someone does not destroy the mal as they have the gsd with show and many other thing :---)


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> How can a dog have fight without defense?



fight drive I mean a dog that fight to get the prey they can have alot of fight drive without the defense drive


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Correct about why you see more Mals now than before. This too you have to consider, MONEY. GSD's cost more, therefore the Mals are used more.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

milder batmusen said:


> fight drive I mean a dog that fight to get the prey they can have alot of fight drive without the defense drive


One of the problems with terminology I reckon. Not everyone (specifically me) believes that "defense" is a good thing to have anyway. I've always considered it as a weakness. From my perspective, prey is what takes a dog to the fight -- fight drive is what keeps them there.

DFrost


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

David Frost said:


> One of the problems with terminology I reckon. Not everyone (specifically me) believes that "defense" is a good thing to have anyway. I've always considered it as a weakness. From my perspective, prey is what takes a dog to the fight -- fight drive is what keeps them there.
> 
> DFrost



I will agree for the most way =D>

I do like dogs that can work in both defense and prey but a dog that works in the streets has to have som defense in my work I could not have a dog with only prey and fight drive 

a sporting dog dont have to have defense but a real police or militarydog has to have it


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Your last staement about police and military dogs must have defense drive, I don't agree with. I think again there's terminology problems as David said. Defense is fear based.

If six BIG guys came toward you in a dark alley, or one angry woman, swinging chains sticks and carrying guns and knives, you go into defense not fight drive. When you can't run and is backed into a corner then you go into fight drive.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher asked ;

" This is an interesting question. Is it that the GSD has gotten worse (lower drive) or is it just that the Mali has gotten much better and the GSD is compared far more now than it ever did do to the Mali? " .

We have used primarily GSD's for years . Train up to 12-24 new PSD's a year . 3/4' are GSD's the rest usually Mals or Dutchies and lately we are seeing more mixes Mal/GSD , Dutchie/GSD . 

I had a talk recently with training staff ( I used to be 1 of them) and they stated it looks like they may be using more Mals and Dutchies in the future . 

Because of demand it's gettin harder to find GSD's that are old enough to start them in PSD work . Also from my experiance as a former PSD trainer the GSD's were getting weaker and showing up with more and more health problems . 

I love GSD's , grew up with them and handled 2 great ones on the street but they are not what they used to be . My new favorite are Dutchies . 

Having trained several different breeds in PSD work I would still like having a good GSD as my primary K9 for new PSD candidates . I just think they are much easier overall to train but finding good ones especially ones mature enough is getting tough . 

From my experiance I don't think the reason for moving more to Mals is because they have gotten better just that as a breed they haven't been as screwed up as the GSD has become . I see more Mal PSD candidates that seem to be more prepared to make it through the training . 

The GSD's candidates are so young you can't even run them through a selection test because they aren't mature enough . Right now with the GSD candidates it's so bad we are slowing down our training and basically hoping when they are finally mature enough they have what it takes to finish the more demanding and final part of their training . So right now with these 12-16 month old GSD candidates it basically a gamble .


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Your last staement about police and military dogs must have defense drive,* I don't agree with. I think again there's terminology problems as David said. Defense is fear based.*
> 
> If six BIG guys came toward you in a dark alley, or one angry woman, swinging chains sticks and carrying guns and knives, you go into defense not fight drive. When you can't run and is backed into a corner then you go into fight drive.



well I dont agree that defense drive is always based on fear but it can be based on terrorial aggresion,protection or a very selfconfident dogs that does not like strangers or what you will call it


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Christopher asked ;
> 
> " This is an interesting question. Is it that the GSD has gotten worse (lower drive) or is it just that the Mali has gotten much better and the GSD is compared far more now than it ever did do to the Mali? " .
> 
> ...



I think your right and I think that the future of the gsd is in the breeders hands now I think the breeders of the mal is much better so seperate the good dogs from the bad or not so good they have only breed to the best dogs that do well in the work dont matter what it is an they breed versitile dogs


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Your last staement about police and military dogs must have defense drive, I don't agree with. I think again there's terminology problems as David said. Defense is fear based.
> 
> If six BIG guys came toward you in a dark alley, or one angry woman, swinging chains sticks and carrying guns and knives, you go into defense not fight drive. When you can't run and is backed into a corner then you go into fight drive.



if you take the naturel aggresive dogs they are not fear aggresive but aggresive to strangers and territoriel 

like the Kaukasisk ovtcharka and the fila brasiliero are very aggresive dogs not fear based at all but truly aggresive they will kill a mann if you get near them or their property


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

milder batmusen said:


> well I dont agree that defense drive is always based on fear but it can be based on terrorial aggresion,protection or a very selfconfident dogs that does not like strangers or what you will call it


territorial aggression and a dislike for "strangers" in itself is a form of fear. The good candidate, from my perspective doesn't need to show aggression unless provoked. Just being a stranger isn't provocation. A dog, without being threatened shouldn't be showing aggression just because of their location or the people around it. 

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I can't say anything about the KO breed but the only Fila I have seen at trial was run off the field, not literaly, but he wouldn't stay to fight. He left on his own. This one dog doesn't represent the breed. He was in defense and decided to leave instead of fight. He did have a way out and wasn't cornered.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have seen and worked a few nice Malinois and seen some very nice young ones. We have one in our training group that I would take in a heartbeat! Understand too the size factor. Some just think bigger is better and if you get hit by a hard driving GSD pushing 100# it will hurt! The Mals very high prey drive and smaller frame make them ideal for other uses. Gators with hair! Coats, colors, sex, country of origin, none of it matters if you can't handle the animal!!!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Milder stated;

" I think your right and I think that the future of the gsd is in the breeders hands now I think the breeders of the mal is much better so seperate the good dogs from the bad or not so good they have only breed to the best dogs that do well in the work dont matter what it is an they breed versitile dogs "


I hope you're right about the way the Mal is being bred . I'm with Jeff on this . Money talks and if they aren't already I'm afraid with the demand going up for Mals they will go the way of the GSD . My guess is they are well on their way already .

I don't put that much emphasis on the size of the dog . A capable Mal , GSD , whatever , brings it and in seeing numerous real engagements it's more on what the dogs brings (mentally and in ability) then it's size . Many Mals I've worked blast the s*** out of the decoy or a real badguy coming in . In many cases that can take the fight right out of a badguy . These type of dogs suck as a trainer and especially a decoy because nobody wants to work them as a decoy . We've got a lot of guys around here with bad knees and shoulders from working dogs like this . I'm one of them , surgery is put off for now . I've also had my jaw dislocated working a small Mal in muzzle work . 

I've seen all the talk about little dogs being thrown around , big dogs being able to bite harder , blah , blah , blah . But what I've seen the majority of the time the bite strength is more dependant on the dog's mindset , size really doesn't matter most of the time . Same with a little dog getting thrown around , if he bites hard and keeps going at it with the suspect is what matters most . Plus in PSD work there is usually a 2nd factor , ME . 

For the record I've worked 2 GSD's weighing between 80-85 lbs. . It doesn't matter if it's a Mal , GSD , Dutchie , big , small , whatever , as long as the dog has what it takes I love it . 

All the stuff about big dogs is more macho BS then anything else . IMO .


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Milder stated;
> 
> " I think your right and I think that the future of the gsd is in the breeders hands now I think the breeders of the mal is much better so seperate the good dogs from the bad or not so good they have only breed to the best dogs that do well in the work dont matter what it is an they breed versitile dogs "
> 
> ...


than would be a shame for the mal to go the way the gsd has done as more a show dog than a working dog [-X=;

I take alot of distance to the way the gsd is breed the really dont test the dogs on anything else than a schh title :evil:


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte (Oct 27, 2008)

I have a dog with a personality of a KO, so I feel that I need to tell about my dog. There are many weak dogs in them, but I was lucky. 

He just loves to guard his property, he is waiting for someone to come. I think, he just entertains himself by that. If someone just calmly goes by our fence, he will only watch them. If they will get very near, he will run to them with a deep growl, maybe some barking. Out of his teritory he is very social, everyone can pet him, he is completely safe to be around, if you don't provoke him. If there is a threat, he instantly switches to agression and attacks, when the threat is over, he just as quick returns to calmness, even if the threatener is near. 

We did only one session of bitework based on agresion and he really enjoyed it. He loves the fight. And he has a full bite, what surprized me. I don't know, if I could call him defensive. I think not. Agressive - yes, he loves to fight - absolutely. With his nerves of steal he would is a great working dog. Though he can't be a sport dog, he doesn't have the prey needed. He loves to play with balls and tugs only when wet (just from a lake or river). Maybe I should say, he's just too lazy. He sleeps all day and night, except when guarding.

I know, that many of this came through raising him. I have almost what I wanted. He only lacks the prey, and that's all.

My new GSD has a quite good prey (now she could play all day, though her prey looked a bit weak when I just got her less than a month ago), but her nerves could be better, there are things she is a bit afraid of, shy to some people. She's too young to fully evaluate fight drive, only 13 months. She doesn't even bark and strangers, but I kind of like it, one property guard is enough for me.

I would want to have a dog with my GSD's prey and everything else from my KO. It's my drean dog. Maybe I will find it someday.


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Your last staement about police and military dogs must have defense drive, I don't agree with. I think again there's terminology problems as David said. Defense is fear based.
> 
> If six BIG guys came toward you in a dark alley, or one angry woman, swinging chains sticks and carrying guns and knives, you go into defense not fight drive. When you can't run and is backed into a corner then you go into fight drive.


 Agreed but I feel most well bred working gsd have the ability to have good prey, civil or as you say defence as well as fight drive they just are not brought out proper.Muzzle work teaches the dog to use his body becouse you have taken away his main weapon so he has to fight and use his body to overcome the advisary. This to me is fight drive and this is just my opinion. There are still good working gsd check out my web site there are some vids of workingline gsd as well as showlines you will be able to see the diffrence and you can disregard the showlines except for a few for the most part they are garbage.www.mck9.com .


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

While it is good for getting a dog to use it's body, the main positive of a muzzle is the frustration factor. It is adding frustration. THis is a strong tool in the tool box, but I don't see it as a drive or anything like that.

The dog gets to go down the field and ooooooops, hey I can't bite this guy, WTF ??

Not slap a muzzle on and get a mythical drive. : )


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Milder, defence and fight are terms that people argue over. To my mind it is simple. A defence dog sees the decoy or bad guy as a threat, whereas a fight drive dog sees the decoy as a challange. 
I also think that fight can come through prey, however you can have a super figt driven dog that has a civil edge to him compared to another fight driven dog.
The problem with defence is that its the last stop before avoidence. The next stop after fight is defence. 
But like I said, lots of people have different terminology and look at the same dog and see something different.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> if you take the naturel aggresive dogs they are not fear aggresive but aggresive to strangers and territoriel
> 
> like the Kaukasisk ovtcharka and the fila brasiliero are very aggresive dogs not fear based at all but truly aggresive they will kill a mann if you get near them or their property


 
BS... I have a Fila, and have been to many breeders and seen many dogs. My wife went through this kick where she was totally wild on them....Filas are all over the board, from big pusses to fear aggression (which I have to admit wasthe popular trend). They bit you because they were worried about you...and most would do it unprovoked. And all would run if you said BOO!

Dogs do not read books on what they are suppose to be. Malinois run the gammit, from nerve bags, to prey monsters...defensive dogs with true aggresion to dull dogs that you cannot get to chase a ball let a lone bite a man. 

First I think the OP's credientials are a bit suspect. Thier is evidence that both dogs are good dogs for what they do...and the only thing that makes one better than the other is personal preference. So, for me the Malinois is the best...For some of friends, it's the GSD....and even better some like the rotti (I cannot see why...but I also cannot see why my wife married such a asshole either).


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

James, you are cool. lol I'd like to train with ya. You too Jeff. Well, all of you.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

MAL vs GSD= (mental masturbation without ejaculation)


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks Jerry, If your ever in the Detroit Area...We will have to have you out...And if I am GA. I will look you up.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Thier is evidence that both dogs are good dogs for what they do...and the only thing that makes one better than the other is *personal preference*. So, for me the Malinois is the best...For some of friends, it's the GSD....and even better some like the rotti (I cannot see why...but I also cannot see why my wife married such a asshole either).





Drew Peirce said:


> MAL vs GSD= (mental masturbation without ejaculation)


 
Ha ha... great posts!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

regarding the drives, Im still a novice and trying to learn, but this article seemed to a least do a good job of attempting to clarify the differences




http://leerburg.com/drives.htm


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

From what I have heard the problem of the Mals VS GSD are that the mals downt work out in the long run. This is from Police not from sport folks. 
You can hav a good GSD working at a good level untill its 8-9 years but many mals start to break down at only 4-6 years. They cant handel it mentaly and starts to get skidish, not clear headed and stuff like that.

This is just from what I herd, maby some of you have seen it? What do you feel about it. wrong ore right?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> From what I have heard the problem of the Mals VS GSD are that the mals downt work out in the long run. This is from Police not from sport folks.
> You can hav a good GSD working at a good level untill its 8-9 years but many mals start to break down at only 4-6 years. They cant handel it mentaly and starts to get skidish, not clear headed and stuff like that.
> 
> This is just from what I herd, maby some of you have seen it? What do you feel about it. wrong ore right?


Way wrong.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He is a bulldogger. Got to let him have his illusions. : P


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> You can hav a good GSD working at a good level untill its 8-9 years but many mals start to break down at only 4-6 years. They cant handel it mentaly and starts to get skidish, not clear headed and stuff like that.
> 
> This is just from what I herd, maby some of you have seen it? What do you feel about it. wrong ore right?



Wrong. I've got 1, 10 year old Mal, a couple that are 8. Most of them we get don't even finish all the training until they are nearly 3. 

DFrost


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Probably examples of both breeds that don´t make it in the long run, maybe mals with their often very high drive and temperament is more prone to unwanted behaviours if they don´t also has nerves to contain all that drive, if we speaking a dual purpose policedog.

Both breeds are also affected by sport and showbreeding, which could make it harder to find suitable dogs for policework, I read a while ago about a cross between the two breeds done by the police to get good policedogs, take the best of both breeds so to speak.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> Probably examples of both breeds that don´t make it in the long run, maybe mals with their often very high drive and temperament is more prone to unwanted behaviours if they don´t also has nerves to contain all that drive, if we speaking a dual purpose policedog.
> 
> Both breeds are also affected by sport and showbreeding, which could make it harder to find suitable dogs for policework, I read a while ago about a cross between the two breeds done by the police to get good policedogs, take the best of both breeds so to speak.


I am not sure where Show dogs are diluting the working lines in Malinois?....And From what I gather about even outcrossing lines within the same breed makes the litters all over the board, where as line breeding makes all the puppies more similar to one another. Out crossing, dilutes...line breeding, tightens. When you outcross, you make the gene pool larger, therefore you get less of what you really want. This is a fact, if it were not....we would not need to have "breeds" of dogs. That's what a breed is, It's no more than the puppies will be genetically very similar to it's ancetors. I think the odds of getting a good working dog from a breeding that has parents from 2 seperate breeds is much less than getting a good one from 2 parents of the same breed.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

No, showbreeding is more for the GSD, but sportbreeding is for both. It would probably be more of an outcross to cross a workingline GSD with todays showline GSD, compared to cross a mal and a working GSD, which is nothing new either.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

He he Yes im a bulldoger but I train with GSDs and mals. The peopel that told me this was difrent police officers and breeders of both breeds that sen this.
This was for Police work and not for sport.

this was not to say that AL mals do this. Just that it was fairly comon. 

If you have alot of working mals 6 years and older doing police work that is nice  just told it as I herd it.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sorry , Andreas I'm not seeing that type of thing with Mals(in PSD work) in my part of the world either . I do see fewer health problems along the way compared to GSD's but that's about it .


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

That is good Jim. I did not say that it IS so, And if its not that is al good. I realy like tha mals and I will probobly get one later on when/if I get the room 

So i stand corected


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I didn't say you are wrong it may be true in your area . I know I've seen the quality of PSDs to be vastly different throughout the U.S. . Some areas sucks others are great .


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

When I was asking breeders and trainers, the general consensus was that mals are on average healthier and outlast the workng GSD, some being retired even at 10-12+ years old. So it depends on who you ask. Nobody ever told me of their complete lack of common sense and disregard for their own safety, I found that out later...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I know of GSDs that worked that long. There's one that was retired from the Coumbia County PD in Ga. that was either 13 or 15. Still in good health and got around really well. He had to use his nose because his eye sight got bad. He went blind. I think he has since passed.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

We've had GSD's go to 12013 yrs old . Mine is 9 and is just starting to show his age . We've got a few more on older then that .


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Milder, defence and fight are terms that people argue over. To my mind it is simple. A defence dog sees the decoy or bad guy as a threat, whereas a fight drive dog sees the decoy as a challange.
> I also think that fight can come through prey, however you can have a super figt driven dog that has a civil edge to him compared to another fight driven dog.
> The problem with defence is that its the last stop before avoidence. The next stop after fight is defence.
> But like I said, lots of people have different terminology and look at the same dog and see something different.



I do agree with you \\/

the only thing I dont agree with is that aggresion is based on fear always because that maybe not always the case

I must say that I think to the GSD has to many health problems compared to the malinois and it ofcourse has is not so good angulation in the hindlegs and the sloped back and we see it more more in the working lines to with gives them a handicap like not very athletic, a bad muclse tone in the hindleg and backproblems I would like the GSD to go back to the old days both in drive and looks I think it is very hard to find gsd that is healthy,and very highly driven,and not that sloped and angulated.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> We've had GSD's go to 12013 yrs old .


Wow Jim, what are you feeding them!!!:smile:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Whatever it is I should be eating it . 

Typing does not come easy for me . Along with spelling .


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> Probably examples of both breeds that don´t make it in the long run, maybe mals with their often very high drive and temperament is more prone to unwanted behaviours if they don´t also has nerves to contain all that drive, if we speaking a dual purpose policedog.
> 
> Both breeds are also affected by sport and showbreeding, which could make it harder to find suitable dogs for policework, I read a while ago about a cross between the two breeds done by the police to get good policedogs, take the best of both breeds so to speak.


Guess if you don't know shit from shinola about working dogs some stupid mofo might buy a mutt mixed with show and working lines.
Don't know what planet or back yard breeders you get your dogs from but the breeders I know can trace there dogs easily back to Horand von Grafrath as I can do with my dog.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> I do agree with you \\/
> 
> the only thing I dont agree with is that aggresion is based on fear always because that maybe not always the case
> 
> I must say that I think to the GSD has to many health problems compared to the malinois and it ofcourse has is not so good angulation in the hindlegs and the sloped back and we see it more more in the working lines to with gives them a handicap like not very athletic, a bad muclse tone in the hindleg and backproblems I would like the GSD to go back to the old days both in drive and looks I think it is very hard to find gsd that is healthy,and very highly driven,and not that sloped and angulated.


All "defence" is a reaction to a threat. It is reactive, not active. Aggression is not only defence based. 
That is the total problem with defence, and one of the reasons that IPO and GSD people are getting left behind. There are just too many people who think that getting defence in the bark and hold by putting pressure and punishment on the dog is a good thing and shows the dog to be strong.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Guess if you don't know shit from shinola about working dogs some stupid mofo might buy a mutt mixed with show and working lines.
> Don't know what planet or back yard breeders you get your dogs from but the breeders I know can trace there dogs easily back to Horand von Grafrath as I can do with my dog.


I was, of course, talking about mixes between mals and working GSDs.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

It will be nice to se how thos dogs turn out. I like what I have seen from the father of that liter.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I have one 11 year old GSD, he's still capable, but is scheduled for replacement. He's definately showing his age.

DFrost


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> All "defence" is a reaction to a threat. It is reactive, not active. Aggression is not only defence based.
> That is the total problem with defence, and one of the reasons that IPO and GSD people are getting left behind. There are just too many people who think that getting defence in the bark and hold by putting pressure and punishment on the dog is a good thing and shows the dog to be strong.



maybe youre right :^o

I dont know wich is best it may depend on what the dog is used for


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