# What is the helper supposed to do in the blind?



## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

All right I have a question about helpers in the blind at trials in IPO. What are they supposed to do? Stare hard at the dogs? Be neutral and stare away? Hunker and posture aggressively? 

The reason I ask is that I have been watching some video lately of a helper who kind of hunkers and is staring real aggressively at the dogs for the duration but at training mostly my helpers are neutral. 

I checked my rulebook but couldn't find anything about it. 

Also, maybe it is different in UScA vs DVG? I train at UScA clubs but this was a DVG video.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

In a trial, you're supposed to be rather neutral and fix your gaze over the dog, like you're looking at a spot over the dog's head and behind him.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

In the blind the rules are specific...sleeve at an angle position and without a threatening body position in the designated blind. Helper can be neutral or stare at the dog...

In the field it is a whole different story...What ever the judge instructs the helper to do...That is the first thing I asked the judge before a trial, do they want me to be neutral, do they want me staring at the dog, ect..


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

There are those helpers that seem to get off on fighting with the dog but maybe they are doing distraction training.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Mario...interesting post
but the way i read it, it didn't sound specific to me at all 

especially the stare or not to stare part

and if the judge has to tell decoys how to follow the "rules of the day", why have rules ? //lol// btw, is there any written rule that prohibits decoys from wearing sunglasses ?

i can see judges being tighter or looser, just like home base umps who have a diff size strike zone, and i realize all rules can be refined, but when IPO Q's are brought up on here, there often seems to be too much room for interpretation for a sport that has been around this long
....to me, whether a decoy stares or glares at a dog from a blind, as compared to a decoy who avoids making eye contact, might be a huge variation that would affect many dogs and make for an uneven playing field
...and it would seem MUCH simpler to just make it a rule that ALL decoys will ALWAYS give intense EC when in a blind in order to test the dog...as well as specifying the angle that the sleeve should be held/presented


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Eric Read said:


> In a trial, you're supposed to be rather neutral and fix your gaze over the dog, like you're looking at a spot over the dog's head and behind him.


Yep. Here is the rules from the FCI for helpers:

2.“Bark and Hold”
The helper stand – not visible for the dog and handler – with a slightly angulated sleeve position motionless and without a threatening body position in a designated blind. The sleeve acts as body protection. At the hold and bark, the dog is to watch the helper, any motivation on the part of the helper is not allowed. The soft stick is held at the helper’s side. 

I'll go out on a limb and state this applies to all the guarding phases even though it's not specifically outlined and that stare down with the dog would be considered a threatening body position.

Staring down the dog can have a varying affect same as body posturing. Some dogs don't care, it can wig some dogs out, piss some dogs off and keep others interested. I have enough things to train for and having my dog take shots because you want to eye screw him is not something I want to contend with which too me this is why the neutrality is important in this instance.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Mario...interesting post
> but the way i read it, it didn't sound specific to me at all
> 
> especially the stare or not to stare part
> ...


it would be even for that day, as he would do it for all the dogs.

why would you suggest to have intense eye contact all the time in order to test the dog? just curious.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Mario...interesting post
> but the way i read it, it didn't sound specific to me at all
> 
> especially the stare or not to stare part
> ...


welcome in the world of IPO


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

the expression I've heard is the decoy isn't supposed to "eye fuk" the dog in the blind


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Yep. Here is the rules from the FCI for helpers:
> 
> *2.“Bark and Hold”
> The helper stand – not visible for the dog and handler – with a slightly angulated sleeve position motionless and without a threatening body position in a designated blind. The sleeve acts as body protection. At the hold and bark, the dog is to watch the helper, any motivation on the part of the helper is not allowed. The soft stick is held at the helper’s side. *
> ...


From this rule it seems that a non threatening body position would include eye stares. 

Ok, so that is FCI rules which most bodies here have adopted. Has anyone noticed any judges that are requesting helpers do the stare? Please don't name names, just curious if it is something that some helpers take on themselves or if there are some judges that are requesting it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I doubt if any judge would request a decoy to stare when it's against the rules BUT what's the difference between stare and eye contact ?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I doubt if any judge would request a decoy to stare when it's against the rules BUT what's the difference between stare and eye contact ?


Come on Thomas...really? Inadvertent eye contact is going to happen...can't be helped really unless you decide to close your eyes. When you don't break contact what words you decide to use to describe it doesn't matter.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Too ambiguous Keith. Do you break eye contact every 10 seconds, 20, 30? Do you look away or blink? Decoys can tell how a particular dog is reacting and I still doubt if any judge is going to instruct them to stare at the dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ohhhhh, I think there is a difference between passive eye contact and a stare. However if the rules say no eye contact have seen decoys that avert their eyes in either direction.

T


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Yep. Here is the rules from the FCI for helpers:
> 
> ...I'll go out on a limb and state this applies to all the guarding phases even though it's not specifically outlined and that stare down with the dog would be considered a threatening body position.




*8. “Stopping the exercise” (applies to all exercises)*

The stopping of all defence exercises must be conducted in such a manner that the judge can observe the grip, the out and the guarding phase of the dog (do not stop the exercise with the back turned towards the judge, maintain eye contact with the judge). Upon stopping the defence exercise, the helper must reduce the resistance against the dog. The helper is to stop the stimulation through movement without noticeably relaxing the arm with the sleeve. The protective sleeve is not to be carried high but remains in the same position it was in during the previous exercise. 

The soft stick is to be held on the side of the body pointing downward, invisible for the dog. The helper is not allowed to provide any help for the dog to release. After the dog releases, the helper maintains eye contact with the dog. Additional stimulation as well as help of any kind is not permitted.

If the dog circles the helper during the holding phase, in order to keep an eye on the dog, the helper is allowed to turn with the dog, slowly and without any sudden movements.

I guess that it is all how you define stare down. If you maintain eye contact with a dog, you by definition are staring at him.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mark Sheplak said:


> I guess that it is all how you define stare down. If you maintain eye contact with a dog, you by definition are staring at him.



Exactly Mark. I've had dogs get intimidated when a decoy gave them too much eye contact, I've had dogs get motivated and Dubheasa got pissed off


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Pretty sure by eye contact they aren't referring to eye to eye contact. You maintain eye contact by looking over the top of the head and down the back.

Eye to eye contact or stare whichever nomenclature you wish to use is not non-threatening or non-stimulating in most cases and really to do so goes against the rules.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

However the helper looks at the dog, neutrally or with stare - I am sure the dog figures out how dominant the helper is. 

We had a helper at our last club and he used to try to stare grimly at the dog in training. It never fooled my dog.

If you are judging the helper as a human it is not the same. Although when you come into contact with them, you can judge how dominant they are.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Mario...interesting post
> but the way i read it, it didn't sound specific to me at all
> 
> especially the stare or not to stare part
> ...


Rick technically in IPO there are no rules. There are guidelines. Do you understand how the ratings work and how the ratings determine the score? 

Also all dog sports are have areas open to the interpretation of the judge.

As to whether the helper looks at the dog or not....I don't care. I train dogs to work the helper, not the other way around. If it makes a big difference to the dog then the dog has a character issue or the handler need to tighten up their training.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Pretty sure by eye contact they aren't referring to eye to eye contact. You maintain eye contact by looking over the top of the head and down the back.


You are correct sir.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Erynn Lucas said:


> Also, maybe it is different in UScA vs DVG? I train at UScA clubs but this was a DVG video.


Erynn I have been to helper certifications for a few clubs and all of them put their twist on things. I have also apprenticed under judges and all of them had their own things that they wanted to see from the helpers.

Personally I like this. I think that it allows clubs to address problems. For instance, if you have a breed that has a tendency to be slow on escapes, a club can put fast helpers on the escapes and have them run their fastest to expose the problem in the breed. Dogs that have problems will get lower scores and fewer people will breed to those dogs. And the converse will happen to the fast dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Pretty sure by eye contact they aren't referring to eye to eye contact. You maintain eye contact by looking over the top of the head and down the back.
> 
> Eye to eye contact or stare whichever nomenclature you wish to use is not non-threatening or non-stimulating in most cases and really to do so goes against the rules.


This is correct.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

LOL. if a dog has issues when the helper stares passively at the dog's eyes, then you have other issues. And really you have to ask yourself.......should it really title? It is a breed test, after all. And a club should train for ALL conditions. 

_The helper should look at the dog at all times_, even during going out of the blind for escape. It is for the safety of helpers. 

Quite frankly, I want pressure from the helper during bark and hold. That would make the bark better. However, THAT would not be allowed since THAT is helping the dog. 

The other main point is, you must follow the judge's direction. Period. 

Ideally, the MORE PASSIVE the helper, the angrier the dog should get. Conflict should go up when the dog sees a passive helper. IMO.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

You train for all scenarios, small helper, big helper, white helper, black helper, right handed helper, left handed helper, helper wearing a wig, eye contact, no eye contact etc etc. Then you won't have go over the rules with a magnifying glass.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I still need to find a left handed black helper willing to put on a long blond wig to complete my H&B training ;-)


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> You train for all scenarios, small helper, big helper, white helper, black helper, right handed helper, left handed helper, helper wearing a wig, eye contact, no eye contact etc etc. Then you won't have go over the rules with a magnifying glass.


Really dude? There was no magnifying glass I just expect everyone to work within the parameters set by the rulebook just as I as a competitor must do, no more no less.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Yes "dude" if you have good training and a good dog then excuses diminish mysteriously.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

No one made excuses merely trying to clarify the rules. I train my dog on left handed/right handed helpers...big ones and small ones...fast and slow...black and white helpers...every sleeve I can find...wooden blinds/portable and nautral...big fields and small...I train a lot of outside the box stuff but as I stated come trial day I expect everyone to be on the same page. If you like the possibility of being blind sided that's certainly your prerogative.


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## James Larkey (Sep 2, 2007)

Peter Cho said:


> Ideally, the MORE PASSIVE the helper, the angrier the dog should get. Conflict should go up when the dog sees a passive helper. IMO.


Training should teach the dog that the passive helper is the most DANGEROUS helper. A concept I learned at a Flinks seminar. The effect is exactly what Peter describes in the above quote. Prepares a dog for a trial picture very well. If the trial helper does stimulate the dog with eye contact or posturing, well.... Thanks for the help, but, it is not needed.

Do many here train with this idea in mind?



Keith Jenkins said:


> .... I train my dog on left handed/right handed helpers...big ones and small ones...fast and slow...black and white helpers...every sleeve I can find...wooden blinds/portable and nautral...big fields and small...I train a lot of outside the box stuff but as I stated come trial day I expect everyone to be on the same page. If you like the possibility of being blind sided that's certainly your prerogative.


Be Prepared.

That's the motto of the Boy Scouts.

"Be prepared for what?" someone once asked Baden-Powell, the founder of Scouting,

"Why, for any old thing." said Baden-Powell. 

Excerpted from page 54, Boy Scout Handbook, 11th ed,
(#33105), copyright 1998 by BSA, ISBN 0-8395-3105-2



Thomas Barriano said:


> I still need to find a left handed black helper willing to put on a long blond wig to complete my H&B training ;-)


Thomas, you go above and beyond.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I still need to find a left handed black helper willing to put on a long blond wig to complete my H&B training ;-)


in this case what does H&B training consist of???


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> in this case what does H&B training consist of???




Holding and Barking (in the blind)


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> No one made excuses merely trying to clarify the rules. I train my dog on left handed/right handed helpers...big ones and small ones...fast and slow...black and white helpers...every sleeve I can find...wooden blinds/portable and nautral...big fields and small...I train a lot of outside the box stuff but as I stated come trial day I expect everyone to be on the same page. If you like the possibility of being blind sided that's certainly your prerogative.


That's what I am talking about. Dog should be confident in any and all situations. If you do get blind sided by a variation to the norm, you take it in stride without missing a beat. A good helper can play havoc with a dog by just moving his eyes, by the same token can help a dog too and stay within the boundary of the written rules all the time. It is up to the handlers/trainers to prepare for such occasions.


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## john simmons (Jan 20, 2010)

Time to throw a twist in...
I find as impactful as the helper is the handler. I don't get so concerned about training the dog for the short, tall, half black and half white helper with the blonde wig as much as I see handler after handler creating more issues for the dog in the H&B. Then it becomes the helper responsibility to fix these issues. 
As far as trial work, as others have said, listen to the judge- trial helper works for him/ her.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If the dog is "a good dog" it won't need to be faced with helpers in wigs, etc. 

It will do it's job. Once it has had a good helper when young, it can be introduced to one or two helpers at trials but after this it should be secure and take on whatever helper it faces. If not, one would have to check out each helper before trialling and that is no fun.

I had more trouble in training with weaker helpers trying to keep my dogs under control.


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