# "Working a dog in defence"



## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Those words seem to be frequently heard in training circles but what exactly do they mean?


People that have seen how we are training dogs tell us we are training them in defence but I would disagree. I don't think we can put a label on our training, it is the dog's mindset at any given time which dictates what drive(s) he is working in.

Too many times I have seen video of a completely preyed out dog with the helper running around, moving the arm and attracting the dog verbally but somehow that is being called defence work even though the dog is in prey mode. You would have to do something to change the dogs mind set to make him work in defence, more then yelling at him or cracking a whip perhaps. Seeing what drive a dog is in takes experience in reading the dog rather then only seeing what action the helper is doing. 

With a truly defensive dog who in his mind is ready to protect him self at all costs..he is in that mindset so a helper could work him all " in prey" and still that dog will be working in defence.. So the work must be more prey based to keep that dog in balance. 

Just a couple of things to think about next time you are training, watch how the dog is perceiving the training, rather then just looking at what the helper is doing. You might get a better idea of what drive the dog is working in at that time..and it could be always switching between drives as well..

Talented helpers are always having the dogs switch between drives and in IPO that is the way in which it was sent up to see dogs are able to switch drives, rather then just stay stuck in prey the entire routine.. 


When I started in the sport we didn't talk of prey or defensive training, we just trained towards a balanced dog. Some dogs needed more pressure from the helper to keep that balance, some needed to work more on the prey side of things..chasing the helper, or even going back on a tug to even that dog out. 

We have tried to put labels on everything related to training dogs and maybe sometimes we just need to forget those and just work with the dog in front of us. Only they can tell you what you really need to know.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Tracey Hughes said:


> People that have seen how we are training dogs tell us we are training them in defence but I would disagree. I don't think we can put a label on our training, it is the dog's mindset at any given time which dictates what drive(s) he is working in...


Assuming folks KNOW what they are seeing...I think any training can have a label put to it. Defense, prey, avoidance, all go to the mode you are working the dog. As a helper/decoy and handler the bigger question in my book: Are you understanding what the animal can handle for the age and background you are putting it in?

Fear can also be a mindset or it can be *false evidence apprearing real.*


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Those words seem to be frequently heard in training circles but what exactly do they mean?


You have to take everything with a grain of salt that you hear here and elsewhere. people learn by mimicry just like dogs. Repeat what they hear and try and make opinions of what they saw and learning as they go. A good deal of the time things are repeated incorrectly, and using terms out of the context they mean (or understand). You should ask someone when they use the term, and then you can usually determine their skill level and ability to explain. 

To me.....

Well, defense means that the dog is reacting to a threat that has been presented. The dog has a choice to fight, flee or displace when shown a threat. This is why I don't get scared or hurt feelings when a dog is in defense. I think most of them are scared at one point or another in their lives by definition of what they are. How you train them through it, and how they naturally handle threat makes the dog stronger.


I also say defense vs. defence to keep the European/British reference out of it. Sort of like saying the dog looks "good working" vs. "in the work." This is important when you are posting so others can garner information from your post, where you are coming from. So in your case I would assume you are from the UK. Not to nit pick your english, but when you say defence I think Brit.



Tracey Hughes said:


> People that have seen how we are training dogs tell us we are training them in defence but I would disagree. I don't think we can put a label on our training, it is the dog's mindset at any given time which dictates what drive(s) he is working in.


From what I have seen your decoy is just training dogs, with some focus of keeping the dog oriented on the man vs. the equipment, and being taught seperate cues vs. environmental context to get the dog to show a behavior. 

Yes there is defense involved. The dog is threatened and reacts, at least initially. I would call it more defensive because your helper doesn't move in prey much that I saw. He stands still and threatens the dog. The dog is obviously uncomfortable as a product of the training, as he'd/she'd rather revert to standing still and holding but due to training is caused to growl and attempt back out of the fight. Calm comfortable dogs in a fight don't want to get away from what they are winning against. you may see this as a strategy in an MMA fight or boxing (backing up and luring someone in, or into better position to clobber them) but seems like the dog is being well trained to growl, back up, thrash and be uncomfortable. It would suggest to me that the dog is calmly reacting to a threat until the dog is whipped, then it gets uncomfortable, bites harder (it fights in reaction to increased threat initially) probably as a matter of cue and not in reaction to any threat after a few sessions. Comfortable dogs push into the fight and dominate in my eyes. We are only seeing a snapshot here, not the total picture.

Of course it's labeled. everything that has a word put to it is labeled. I would label it training, though, and agree with you that the dog determines where he is working and comfortable. In this case, he is being taught to be scared of the whip, fight back, and sometimes this reduces the pressure. As long as it keeps the grip full and good points, I guess your goal is met. Also will probably make for a dog that will more likely bite for real. In the end, he'll probably bite harder and work more intensely from what's going on. My difference in training would be to teach him to dominate not back up and pull.




Tracey Hughes said:


> Too many times I have seen video of a completely preyed out dog with the helper running around, moving the arm and attracting the dog verbally but somehow that is being called defence work even though the dog is in prey mode. You would have to do something to change the dogs mind set to make him work in defence, more then yelling at him or cracking a whip perhaps. Seeing what drive a dog is in takes experience in reading the dog rather then only seeing what action the helper is doing.


Then you shouldn't call this defense, and by definition here, what you do in training would reflect defense vs. prey. You answered your own question. My goal is to get the dog to experience so much that nothing really scares it while he brings great power to the fight through channeling and winning fights in training.



Tracey Hughes said:


> With a truly defensive dog who in his mind is ready to protect him self at all costs..he is in that mindset so a helper could work him all " in prey" and still that dog will be working in defence.. So the work must be more prey based to keep that dog in balance.


A helper can't work the dog all in prey if he is defensive. It's incorrect of you to repeat this even in quotes. I get what you are trying to say, but you said it all, when you said the dog picks where he's working. 

The (my) goal is to get a dog to channel back and forth in my opinion. We have a nasty angry bulldog that on her one session of bitework was trying to bite the decoy everywhere but the bottom of his feet. You channel that. IE Get a bite. Let the tide turn and the dog win by the decoy's actions (moving further away with a sleeve on a leash, being submissive, etc), and teach the dog that it can win, thus giving the appearance and sometime the fact that the dog will come out in prey later on. That balance you are looking for. Repeated sessions of defense with a win will make a dog more comfy and have the ability to think in a fight . I have seen a few dogs work like this and become more stable from losing the conflict and fear associated with for them with biting. They learn it's okay, no matter what mom may have told them, or corrections from owners or the genetic propensity to not want to bite humans. Channel. Defense shown, equals the threat leaving, equals a win. This can turn into the dog displaying more prey type biting. less hectic, better dog.

Your calm dog in the video is being made to see a threat so he CAN come up more in defense. I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?




Tracey Hughes said:


> Just a couple of things to think about next time you are training, watch how the dog is perceiving the training, rather then just looking at what the helper is doing. You might get a better idea of what drive the dog is working in at that time..and it could be always switching between drives as well..


How about you go through a video and pick out where the dog is in prey vs. defense and mark it with time. You might get a better idea of just what you are teaching your dog, if you think he isn't working in defense when he gets whipped and is backing up. I agree with you that people should do this, but when people look, they should know what they are seeing. You and I included.




Tracey Hughes said:


> Talented helpers are always having the dogs switch between drives and in IPO that is the way in which it was sent up to see dogs are able to switch drives, rather then just stay stuck in prey the entire routine..


If you can get a dog to get "stuck in prey" in the end, you are in good shape. Dogs don't think as well when they are defensive. That is where outs get ugly and the dog isn't "clear headed". Channeling back and forth is how you teach the dog to be calm for the outs. A dog deep in prey, that is conditioned to bite anything is a strong dog in my opinion. Work the dog where he's comfortable and produces. The dog may be brought up in prey or defense initially. Where he works best is a result of conditioning




Tracey Hughes said:


> We have tried to put labels on everything related to training dogs and maybe sometimes we just need to forget those and just work with the dog in front of us. Only they can tell you what you really need to know.


Labels are how we communicate. A better understanding of each others training and a general understanding that we don't understand leads to better two way communication.

Love the comment on the dog in front of us tellling us what we need to know.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Assuming folks KNOW what they are seeing...I think any training can have a label put to it. Defense, prey, avoidance, all go to the mode you are working the dog. As a helper/decoy and handler the bigger question in my book: Are you understanding what the animal can handle for the age and background you are putting it in?
> 
> Fear can also be a mindset or it can be *false evidence apprearing real.*


 Sure people can label what they see, but I believe dog training is more complicated then just putting a label on it . 

I am not even sure what avoidance training is. Doesn’t sounds promising to me.

Yes, I am understanding what my dogs can handle that is what dog training comes down to its being able to know what the dog can and can’t handle at any time. 

When it comes to protection I am pretty much out of the picture, I have to rely on my helpers to be able to make spilt second choices as to how they must work the dog depending on what the dog is showing them and I have to leave them to work the dogs. 
I am there to praise and control my dog the rest lies with a much more skilled person in the sleeve then I am.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Dave,

Thanks so much for the well thought out reply, while we may not agree on everything I appreciate you taking the time out to respond. It keeps me thinking. And sometimes what I write down comes across a bit differently then I had hoped it would. 

Too much for me to even get into right now..but I will chat with you later 

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Dave,
> 
> Thanks so much for the well thought out reply, while we may not agree on everything I appreciate you taking the time out to respond. It keeps me thinking. And sometimes what I write down comes across a bit differently then I had hoped it would.
> 
> ...


 
I like disagreement. I learn more that way. I don't think I communicate nearly as well as I should, or as good as I can. 

Your post came across as intelligent and a different point of view. Thought provoking. Too little of that goes on, here in my opinion.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Sure people can label what they see, but I believe dog training is more complicated then just putting a label on it .
> 
> I am not even sure what avoidance training is. Doesn’t sounds promising to me.
> 
> ...


I am in the same position as you are and have to leave the evaluation of my dog in protection to the helper.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I agree Dave and I too enjoy this type of discussion. As for the spelling of defence. I was spelling it with the S at first but my Ipad kept changing to the C so I went along with it. Now I just spell it with a C. Us Canadians so use a lot of the British spelling as well which is why we spell color with a U up here etc.. 

And now my computer is showing me that colour is spelled incorrectly.

Later..


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

If you KNOW what you want and you are cool with it, who really cares? Spell check, it assumes it knows more than the writer. Enjoy your traiing as we had a great time today, the first day back in the NEW YEAR!


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I honestly don't know how to tell the difference whether they are in prey of defense, and if it all goes well, not sure it matters. I am not experienced at it, but have seen my dog be very defensive whenever on leash and someone gets behind her.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think you have to get with a good training helper and learn, particularly with your own dog. I've spent a lot of time with helpers and work with this in my own work as well. Reading the dog is of primary importance to me. On the trial side, if you can get to be the judge's scribe/secretary, that's really interesting. I'm going to do this again at the next mondio trial. You really get to see the dog's interaction with the helper and know how the judge views it. Don Lee was great to scribe for and Adam Ramsey ansered all my quesions regarding working and developing dogs so I highly recommend these two. This forum can be a godsend in that regard as well if you catch the right discussion and the ones with videos. 

T


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iUhqzV5E-c

Someone mentioned this woman on another thread. I think she is really good and I'm trying to study her and incorporate her technique with my dog this winter.

So, initially when she starts out, is this dog in prey? No movement on her part except the approach. I usually associate working a dog in prey with lots of prey stimulation with the sleeve or prey object. I think her targeting is good too!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lori

That's Anne Kent and she's a heck of a good trainer/decoy

I think the whole video the dog is working in prey. Quick snapping away of the sleeve is prey. Run bys are prey. Avoiding eye contact most to the time ='s prey. There's a little defense when she squares up to the dog. But mainly a prey session IMO
This whole topic reminds my of something Armin Winkler said at a seminar when another decoy said he was going to work a dog in prey. Armin said something like "the dog decides what drive he works in not the decoy"


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Thomas, I haven't watched the video yet but I really liked that Armin Winkler quote. Perfect. Thanks for sharing.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Watched it. Pretty good work, dog is kept in prey drive.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I agree Dave and I too enjoy this type of discussion. As for the spelling of defence. I was spelling it with the S at first but my Ipad kept changing to the C so I went along with it. Now I just spell it with a C. Us Canadians so use a lot of the British spelling as well which is why we spell color with a U up here etc..
> 
> And now my computer is showing me that colour is spelled incorrectly.
> 
> Later..


I stand corrected. In the US constitution, they use the spelling of defense as defence. I guess that means I must change my evil ways.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

when I first started watching Schutzhund vids I was amazed at how often the dog is ONLY working in prey, in a protection section of a sport this puzzled me greatly.

Edit: I noticed this because I am used to watching the dog not the agitator to determine which drive he is in.


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## Ken Seminatore (Apr 20, 2011)

It's not that complicated. First, you get a good puppy from right breeding. At 8 weeks you introduce alot of social and then play in prey with a decoy or maybe several decoys. Play and play with prey. Keep the dog in prey even into the tug, then the sleeve, then the suit, always in prey. Eventually, the dog is always comfortable with the decoy but, of course, the decoy is really not the bad guy because the dog is biting the fabrick, not the man. The decoy slowly inroduces the stick more and more oposition. After all this "basic" bite work, when the dog feels very comfortable with the decoy and all the exercises we can then introduce the real serious defence. To go on and on with secarios, the muzzle work in all kinds of senarious. JMO


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

jim stevens said:


> I honestly don't know how to tell the difference whether they are in prey of defense, and if it all goes well, not sure it matters. I am not experienced at it, but have seen my dog be very defensive whenever on leash and someone gets behind her.


I do agree that at the end of the day if you get what you want it doesn't matter.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Lori Gallo said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iUhqzV5E-c
> 
> Someone mentioned this woman on another thread. I think she is really good and I'm trying to study her and incorporate her technique with my dog this winter.
> 
> So, initially when she starts out, is this dog in prey? No movement on her part except the approach. I usually associate working a dog in prey with lots of prey stimulation with the sleeve or prey object. I think her targeting is good too!


I don't think in this case you get defense unless the dog feels threatened .
In this case she just walks in with no presence . Her targeting is good but she is late a few times . she misses the dog at the peak and has to put the sleeve back in front of the dog because he dies and has to restart. Not to criticize , just making an observation. I thought the helper work was good jmho


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I don't think in this case you get defense unless the dog feels threatened .
> In this case she just walks in with no presence . Her targeting is good but she is late a few times . she misses the dog at the peak and has to put the sleeve back in front of the dog because he dies and has to restart. Not to criticize , just making an observation. I thought the helper work was good jmho


She walks towards the dog full frontal. How is that perceived by the dog? How do you know she doesn't have presence? As for the misses, does this dog really want to bite? Does this dog have any desire to bite without whip or other movement stimulation? Those were my questions regarding reading the dog.


T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> She walks towards the dog full frontal. How is that perceived by the dog? How do you know she doesn't have presence? As for the misses, does this dog really want to bite? Does this dog have any desire to bite without whip or other movement stimulation? Those were my questions regarding reading the dog.
> 
> 
> T


I didn't watch the whole thing, but where was the dog looking the whole first minute and a half? It looks like at the sleeve. 

The helper seemed to just go through the motions.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I didn't watch the whole thing, but where was the dog looking the whole first minute and a half? It looks like at the sleeve.
> 
> The helper seemed to just go through the motions.


This is probably one of the most interesting videos I've seen for reading the dog. If he wants the sleeve so bad, why won't he bite it when its offered to him and still? If she does snatching motions then he's triggered to grab it. The question to me is does everyone believe that she isn't pressuring the dog from the dog's point of view. Maybe he'd rather chase the prey than deal with the pressure?

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is probably one of the most interesting videos I've seen for reading the dog. If he wants the sleeve so bad, why won't he bite it when its offered to him and still? If she does snatching motions then he's triggered to grab it. The question to me is does everyone believe that she isn't pressuring the dog from the dog's point of view. Maybe he'd rather chase the prey than deal with the pressure?
> 
> T


When they miss repeatedly, they will actually teach you to bring the sleeve to them, which this helper does. she puts it in the dogs mouth. That is why he goes dead. because he has been rewarded for going dead when the sleeve gets close. Her actions should have been to wait on the dog to bark before moving.

If she'd hold the sleeve up high to where the dog has to jump every time to bite, she'd get better results, because 100% of the time the dog would have to jump to get the sleeve. This is why helpers have to be sharp with where they reward, as they pick the behavior they reward. Operant conditioning. It's not just for some dogs anymore.

I am assuming you are kidding or baiting someone, Terrasita, but I answered anyway.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Not baiting or kidding but interesting explanation of why he "goes dead" which is something I haven't seen.


T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Not baiting or kidding but interesting explanation of why he "goes dead" which is something I haven't seen.
> 
> 
> T


did i explain it well enough. does it make sense to you?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> did i explain it well enough. does it make sense to you?


I guess I'm looking at the dog in terms of is this all prey and/or fun and games for him. Is the decoy pressure to/for this dog? As for how she is building or shaping the dog, I'm not completely sure what you mean. Was trying to look at your's and someone else's post to see if by reading them both I could understand what she was after and where it fell apart.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I guess I'm looking at the dog in terms of is this all prey and/or fun and games for him. Is the decoy pressure to/for this dog? As for how she is building or shaping the dog, I'm not completely sure what you mean. Was trying to look at your's and someone else's post to see if by reading them both I could understand what she was after and where it fell apart.
> 
> T


Where do you see the dog showing any signs of defense?

Also, I watched the rest of the video. My guess is that she's pretty good at what she does. Second part of that guess is she was trying to figure something out and trying different things to figure out how to get the dog to do something.

Still seems like she activates more when the dog isn't moving in the first part of the video. The dog misses and goes dead, which suggests to me it is offering the behavior of going dead to try and get a bite, which he does get a time or two.

I wonder if maybe she's trying to get more rhythmic barking out of the dog when she's close...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Where do you see the dog showing any signs of defense?
> 
> Also, I watched the rest of the video. My guess is that she's pretty good at what she does. Second part of that guess is she was trying to figure something out and trying different things to figure out how to get the dog to do something.
> 
> ...


It seems as if he goes dead because after a couple of misses and he didn't get it, he gives up. Motion activates him, mostly. As for defense, I try not to even use the word. Also listen to what she says: sounds like "chewy" and "he just like studies it and then he'll try to grab it." I don't think she expected him to go dead. In the first set up, his vocalizations changed as she was moving in on him. After the first set up or maybe first 2, he's less engaged with her frontal to him--or so it seems. By the 5th set up, she's more side presentation and lots of rapid motion and whip. 

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> It seems as if he goes dead because after a couple of misses and he didn't get it, he gives up. Motion activates him, mostly. As for defense, I try not to even use the word. Also listen to what she says: sounds like "chewy" and "he just like studies it and then he'll try to grab it." I don't think she expected him to go dead. In the first set up, his vocalizations changed as she was moving in on him. After the first set up or maybe first 2, he's less engaged with her frontal to him--or so it seems. By the 5th set up, she's more side presentation and lots of rapid motion and whip.
> 
> T


Terrasita. He looks to be driven to bite the sleeve. He stopped trying to bite and offered another behavior to get the sleeve. Do you see that?

Did you see anything in the dogs body posture or behavior that suggested he was not comfortable at any point. I even think I see what resembles a play bow a couple times in there. 

You asked if it was prey or fun for him. The opposite of that is defense. Fight, flight or displacement. You have to use common terms, or discussions get nowhere. I think you mentioned reading a dog in one of your earlier posts in this thread. Try TO use the word defense, or something in it's place. Think of discussion as places where you can be positve without discussiong "what words you try not to use". Supplant your words for common terms if it is more comfortable for you.. What do you call it if you don't call it defense. Be affirmative! Be a do-be, not a don't be.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Terrasita. He looks to be driven to bite the sleeve. He stopped trying to bite and offered another behavior to get the sleeve. Do you see that?
> 
> Did you see anything in the dogs body posture or behavior that suggested he was not comfortable at any point. I even think I see what resembles a play bow a couple times in there.
> 
> You asked if it was prey or fun for him. The opposite of that is defense. Fight, flight or displacement. You have to use common terms, or discussions get nowhere. I think you mentioned reading a dog in one of your earlier posts in this thread. Try TO use the word defense, or something in it's place. Think of discussion as places where you can be positve without discussiong "what words you try not to use". Supplant your words for common terms if it is more comfortable for you.. What do you call it if you don't call it defense. Be affirmative! Be a do-be, not a don't be.


I think in terms of pressure. I also don't see him as offering another behavior like, okay I'll quit trying to bite it and maybe you'll give me a bite?? I don't see him play bowing either. He seems all hot and bothered when she is further away and then with the up close work, he seems to fizzle out until they do all the prey/stimulation work at the end. This video also seems to be edited--maybe. But, that said, I'll keep your perspective in mind when I watch it again.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think in terms of pressure. I also don't see him as offering another behavior like, okay I'll quit trying to bite it and maybe you'll give me a bite?? I don't see him play bowing either. He seems all hot and bothered when she is further away and then with the up close work, he seems to fizzle out until they do all the prey/stimulation work at the end. This video also seems to be edited--maybe. But, that said, I'll keep your perspective in mind when I watch it again.
> 
> T


I don't think you know what you are looking at, Terrasita. I can point out more what I see, but you see normal prey behavior (with some training) as "hot and bothered". The dog is offerering behaviors to start the action, it's obvious. It offers behaviors throughout to manipulate the decoy's behavior. The "hot and bothered" is a behavior. Do you see the dog bow, almost go into a down? At some point, I'd bet the dog was taught a down to start the bitework, or associated downing with a bite.

This is how we can turn defense into a prey game for the dog. this is no different than throwing a ball on a slick floor for a nervous dog. IF the dog will chase the ball, the prey brings him through his desire to flee. Do you get it?? It's conditioning. I suggest you get somewhere out of your normal circle of friends where you can talk one on one with someone about dogs.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

In this particular video, I don't think the decoy is putting a ton of pressure on the dog or being especially confrontational, but I do see a dog that I think has been worked more in defense and goes to that place in his mind more easily.

First, his bark is not a high pitched, excited prey bark. It's a more confrontational, defensive bark. Second, the dog doesn't seem highly prey motivated. When the decoy is squared up to him, he seems stronger. Of course, this has been trained, so it's impossible to say if he is responding to the decoy's body language because he sees it as confrontation or because he knows barking leads to a bite. When the decoy makes prey movements, the dog falls out of drive. I have seen dogs that get "prey locked" and become motionless because they are so overwhelmed with drive, but I don't think this is the case here. Third, listen to him when he is on the bite. I hear some growling and whining. I don't believe the dog lacks confidence, but it does seem in his mind, there's still some anger and confrontation. The decoy even mentions once that he likes to fight. When she slips the sleeve, he drops it immediately. Again, this could be a very well trained dog that knows he needs to out quickly and immediately, but the decoy mentions that she'd like to see him hold it longer. It doesn't appear the prey object has much meaning, but the confrontation and fight is what motivates the dog.

If he is working in defense, it doesn't have to mean he's scared or feeling particularly threatened. I would be interested to see this dog in the earlier stages of his training. I believe he has learned to work more in defense and now he's comfortable there so it looks more animated and perhaps can make it appear that he's working in prey drive, but the remnants of defense still remain.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> In this particular video, I don't think the decoy is putting a ton of pressure on the dog or being especially confrontational, but I do see a dog that I think has been worked more in defense and goes to that place in his mind more easily.
> 
> First, his bark is not a high pitched, excited prey bark. It's a more confrontational, defensive bark. Second, the dog doesn't seem highly prey motivated. When the decoy is squared up to him, he seems stronger. Of course, this has been trained, so it's impossible to say if he is responding to the decoy's body language because he sees it as confrontation or because he knows barking leads to a bite. When the decoy makes prey movements, the dog falls out of drive. I have seen dogs that get "prey locked" and become motionless because they are so overwhelmed with drive, but I don't think this is the case here. Third, listen to him when he is on the bite. I hear some growling and whining. I don't believe the dog lacks confidence, but it does seem in his mind, there's still some anger and confrontation. The decoy even mentions once that he likes to fight. When she slips the sleeve, he drops it immediately. Again, this could be a very well trained dog that knows he needs to out quickly and immediately, but the decoy mentions that she'd like to see him hold it longer. It doesn't appear the prey object has much meaning, but the confrontation and fight is what motivates the dog.
> 
> If he is working in defense, it doesn't have to mean he's scared or feeling particularly threatened. I would be interested to see this dog in the earlier stages of his training. I believe he has learned to work more in defense and now he's comfortable there so it looks more animated and perhaps can make it appear that he's working in prey drive, but the remnants of defense still remain.


 
Thanks for looking at it and chiming in. You are looking at some of the things that stood out to me. Agreed, not a ton of pressure but the dog sees it as pressure. Yes, I also listened to the vocalizations comparing when the decoy is away vs. close and frontal and also the vocalizations on the bite. Earlier posts seem to say this was all prey work or the dog was working only in prey. I was interested in how others might view it.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ariel, I usually agree with you. This time I don't. Here is what I have in response to what you wrote, make me believe I am wrong if you still think I am.

I am hearing a trained rhythmic bark. If you watch in the beginning, you can see him bark at the handler and the camera man to start the action, not in response to a threat. I don't know how old the dog is, but it has had some training, it's apparent. So I'd rule out the barking being defensive just because it's not high pitched, he seems to know he gets a bite when he barks. It's hard to separate where the dog stops and the training starts as far as the pitch of the bark, when the dog is obviously trained and rewarded with barking rythmically like he is.

As far as the growling the helper gets a good growl, and then some thrashing around 0:35-0:45 and then rewards it by slipping the sleeve. If this isn't the first time, that would indicate the dog is being rewarded for the growling , and also that it did have a problem with being growly (and uncomfortable/defensive) at one time. I don't disagree that you see remants of defense in the growling, but that the dog is not threatened or uncomfortable with biting. . Again at 2:01 and 2:43 the dog is rewarded for some growling and thrashing with a slip of the sleeve which would suggest it happens a lot in a session. I would guess that with the quick out, he may have recently done his out, or associates the helper with freezing up meaning the out is coming, and maybe a little conflict, which is a reaction to pressure from the out, not the helper. He doesn't growl with stick hits. Seems like it comes more from the freeze up.

I see mainly prey. I'd like to see the dog in person and see if I am right. Could be a defensive crapper and the decoy is just fantastic. I would guess there is a lot of prey there and bad training (reward timing) to hesitate coming onto the bite (or the teaching of the guard??). The main reason I think this is because I can see the helper reward a neutral or backing up dog at 1:08, 1:37,2:24,2:56, 3:30. Always coming right at the dog for the bite, stepping in EVERY time, never making the dog have a tight line and lunge for a bite. he obviously lunges several times, but gets nothing for it, why would he continue to lunge and show that behavior if he never gets a reward for it?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Thanks for looking at it and chiming in. You are looking at some of the things that stood out to me. Agreed, not a ton of pressure but the dog sees it as pressure. Yes, I also listened to the vocalizations comparing when the decoy is away vs. close and frontal and also the vocalizations on the bite. Earlier posts seem to say this was all prey work or the dog was working only in prey. I was interested in how others might view it.
> 
> T


Do you tell people to be careful after they have already tripped?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Lori
> 
> That's Anne Kent and she's a heck of a good trainer/decoy
> 
> ...


It's funny how you quote Armin Winkler that the dog decides where it works, and then you did nothing but talk about the helpers actions.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Do you tell people to be careful after they have already tripped?


No. There's some here that I agree with and some I probably don't but another perspective of reading the dog from someone else's experience. We don't have to agree word for word. We are at least looking at some of the same behaviors whether we agree on them or not. Doesn't matter. And now you are looking at those behaviors also and formulating some thoughts. For instance, NOW you acknowledge that the dog after not being allowed to bite, quit trying whereas before it was he was offering another behavior to get the bite. Also interesting is the helper rewarding a neutral or backing up dog. So "mostly" prey and bad training. Another interesting perspective.


T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita. what do you see in the video? 

Nothing has changed in my opinion of this, other than watching the full video I think the helper is much more skilled than (me) I initially thought.

If you'd like to quote where I did change my opinion, then I can refute it. You really haven't stimulated much thought, other than how to get it in terms you can understand where you are in your learning progression with protection work....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> You really haven't stimulated much thought, other than how to get it in terms you can understand where you are in your learning progression with protection work....


 
Hahahahah, interesting. You really didn't notice what I said about the terms? But let's assume I don't know what I'm looking at like you stated before. I like looking at things from another's perspective. Perhaps I'll change or refine mine. Perhaps not. Maybe some others will chime in regarding reading the dog's behavior.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You really didn't notice what I said about the terms? But let's assume I don't know what I'm looking at like you stated before. I like looking at things from another's perspective. Perhaps I'll change or refine mine. Perhaps not. Maybe some others will chime in regarding reading the dog's behavior.
> 
> T


What did you say about terms? I know you don't like the term defense and try to avoid using it. I didn't see anything about any other terms.


I'd really like to hear what the helper has to say.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

My opinion (ref: the freezing up) is that it is a young dog that has had too much drive capping on a tug or pillow or even sleeve too early (before the dogs drive is fully developed) and the helper is trying to counter that by getting the dog out of the bad habit that resulted. 
The dog is unsure of his job atm i.e to win the sleeve through prey behaviour by going after the prey not waiting for it to come to him.

I think she is pressuring the dog a bit, full frontal and eye contact but I am not sure the aim of the game is developing defence I think she is using it to transfer to prey behaviour in this first vid.

*'Also, I watched the rest of the video. My guess is that she's pretty good at what she does. Second part of that guess is she was trying to figure something out and trying different things to figure out how to get the dog to do something.'*

This I agree with.


If you watch the vid dated 9 days later the helper is doing exactly what Dave has suggested, holding the sleeve higher to make the dog jump for it and declares 'see I told you he would get it' which is interesting.

I too would like the helpers commentary to understand what is going on. It is an interesting vid in view of comments earlier that this person is very good.


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