# Dog's attraction to the handler



## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

This is a question for the owners of traditional protection breeds, GSD, rott, mal, DS, bouv, dobe etc. Here's the situation; you drive with your dog to a place it's never been before, a wide expanse of forest or some other natural setting. You have no food rewards or toys on you. You let your dog off leash and without saying a word walk away never looking at the dog again. Having walked for 2 miles do you still have a dog?

I'm interested in all responses of people who have tried this. Whether you had to stop at some point and call your dog, or if the dog kept up on its own. If this is something that improved over time as you took the dog out more and more. What breed of dog it is and a few words about its temperament.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

WTF kind of question is this.:-k MY dogs are attached to my ass non stop. I haven't been to the bathroom by myself in years. Doesn't matter where I go, I can't shake em.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Most def, I'd still have a dog. Only had 1 that would run with the wind and I sent her ass packin back to the breeder. I don't like that much independance in a dog. Will my dogs go off, sure, some farther than others but they always come back, check in if you will and then go off sniffing again. I also only had one dog that was soo clingy he wouldn't crawl out of my ass for long, also not desirable.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

With my GSDs I find it depends on the age of my dog and his maturity level. My current young male is like this:

My current GSD at 9 months: In a wild place? Oh he's gone with the wind, forget about him, listen for the coyotes singing about the kill if you want to bother finding his mo fo good for nothing carcass. So his ass stays on a line. 

Same pup @ 18 months: Still a wild child. Let's just say when we are up at our Washington property his nickname is NumbNuts of the North. He will pretty much stay on our acreage, pass by us & make eye contact at the damn speed of light every couple of hours but forget about trying to touch him until or unless he's hungry or if we have his things.

Same dog 24 months to present: VERY reliable, but still enjoys exploring and independence. He ranges closer, checks back more often (on his own, but still doesn't want to be touched much EVER), if called he comes in like a rocket.

All my GSDs have been like this, some maybe mature faster than this one, some inherently less independent and more touchable, cuddly. While this guy's insanity has been a little more work, it is no less rewarding and fun to deal with. I really appreciate this ones boldness and confidence.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Susan, thanks. That's the kind of input I was looking for.


todd pavlus said:


> WTF kind of question is this.:-k MY dogs are attached to my ass non stop. I haven't been to the bathroom by myself in years. Doesn't matter where I go, I can't shake em.


I removed you from my ignore list just to see what you posted here as the question is important to me. I assure you this won't happen again, back you go ass clown. You've probably never taken your dog off leash outside the house anyways.

This is what you look like to me, have fun.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> WTF kind of question is this.:-k MY dogs are attached to my ass non stop. I haven't been to the bathroom by myself in years. Doesn't matter where I go, I can't shake em.


That's funny now that I think about it I guess I haven't taken a leek at home by my self in many many years.
My Rott my previous shepherd and the one I have now all keeped a eye on me. If they don't I ditchem and hide it teaches them to keep a eye on me worked on all the 3 of them none of them have ever strayed. 
It also a fun game they all liked to play.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not going to make the same mistake twice, not in one day


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I'm not going to make the same mistake twice, not in one day


I think we need a dumb ass button :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never owned a dog that didn't stay with me.
A pup under 12-14 wks old doesn't want to be away from it's pack. Started after 12- 14 wks this isn't as successful because the pup has reached an independant age. The rest is nothing more then good leadership. As I've commented before, leadership has nothing to do with training.
I've always taken very young pups for walks in the woods. If they get distracted I hide and watch. When I see the pup stress a bit I step out with a hoppy "puppy come" I've never had one that didn't come running and learn to keep their eyes on me.
As they got older they all move out and investigate their surrounding but always come back occasionally to check in where I'm at.
Now, this has been discussed that I'm taking away any independance the pup may have. I've never seen that in any dog I grew up with, any of my working terriers, or my GSDs. The older of which was trained in SAR. When given a search commad he had absolutely no trouble moving out as far as needed.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Todd what a hoot! That's the reason mine are outside dogs, and mine stay with me. It seems to me that if the dog were to run off, chances are you NEVER had a great bond to start! We did environmental work 2 weeks ago in an open/cut over woods area and my male was focused but not handler dependant, found the "bad guy" in the woods and started the a$$ whooping without me...=D>


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I've never owned a dog that didn't stay with me.
> A pup under 12-14 wks old doesn't want to be away from it's pack. Started after 12- 14 wks this isn't as successful because the pup has reached an independant age. The rest is nothing more then good leadership. As I've commented before, leadership has nothing to do with training.
> I've always taken very young pups for walks in the woods. If they get distracted I hide and watch. When I see the pup stress a bit I step out with a hoppy "puppy come" I've never had one that didn't come running and learn to keep their eyes on me.
> As they got older they all move out and investigate their surrounding but always come back occasionally to check in where I'm at.
> Now, this has been discussed that I'm taking away any independance the pup may have. I've never seen that in any dog I grew up with, any of my working terriers, or my GSDs. The older of which was trained in SAR. When given a search commad he had absolutely no trouble moving out as far as needed.


That's almost exactly the way I've handled all my dogs through the years and the way they all react.

It's funny I had a show line breeder try to correct me one time. He told me my GSD's were not acting FREE and watching me to close. ](*,)


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

All my dogs are social and can walk off lead but never stray away. For PPD first thing a client asks you - is the dog social, can he be trusted on walks, doe she get on with other dogs etc. not how hard does this dog bite or is he trained for multiple attacks. With GSDs I find they like to run ahead of you slightly ahead of you turning back to check you are there. Maybe a herder thing.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As pups, 8 weeks, one didn't realise I'd left him at first but found me. The Fila sat at the top of little hill and howled his heart out. My current GSD would put his nose to the ground the minute I left and smell me out.

I too find the herders, like to run ahead and seem to be unaware of one but I've tried standing still a few times, and each has looked back.

In this small country, two miles would get me out of the forest and into civilisation but I have no doubt they would be with me before I got to the pub.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Qoute: You've probably never taken your dog off leash outside the house anyway.

Quite the opposite. I live in the country and my dogs are off leash alot, along with the fact that I do alot of hiking in the mountains with them, but this is probably hard for Emilio to undertand, since you live in Miami. I believe you only asked this dumb question because your big bad PP rottie must take off on you whenever you let him loose, and you just wanted to see if there was anybody else who had dogs that did this. I think I had a petsmart trainer ask me the same question one day. Who cares. MY dogs never go more than 20-30 ft before they come back to check on me.

And don't be fooled Emilio you will read this post because you love to argue. Alot of your posts make me think WTF. But again you took the cake with this one.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

All; I just want to emphasize that there's a difference between what you think will happen based on somewhat similar experiences and what could actually happen if you were to follow the situation I outlined to the letter. Think if you've really done this. New area far from anything the dog has known before. Zero communication, not even a glance at the dog, start walking and forget about the dog. Only look to see where it is after 2 miles. It doesn't matter how wide it ranged during the walk and if it came back to check on you although it would be interesting to note. The only thing that counts is at the end of the walk if the dog is there with you.

I've never done this because I don't know of an area where I can do thisf. I've done partial tests but they're not conclusive simply because there are other factors involved. The test I outlined is definitive. 

BTW Bob I do the same thing with the hiding and if the dog gets too anxious not finding me I'll help him find me by making a sound. Does that reflect on the dog or does it reflect more on us?  We need to see that our dogs needs us.

There's a fine balance here, we're not talking about dogs that goes off and never looks back. Those are easy to identify. My dog for example follows me everywhere around the house. Every station that I have for myself such as in front of the computer or TV or my bed he has his corresponding station a few feet away. Being free outside is a different story. I wonder how much of the dog staying close depends on certain experiences. I wonder if having never taken the dog out and he sticks close would indicate some insecurity. Whereas a dog experienced with being taken out to roam free and chooses to keep an eye on you does so based on the temperament we like to see.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I've never done this because I don't know of an area where I can do thisf. I've done partial tests but they're not conclusive simply because there are other factors involved. The test I outlined is definitive.


Just a few clarification questions:

What other factors were involved in your partial test? 
Why 2 miles and not 1 or 3 miles?
What if at the end of this definitive test the dog is 30 feet away from you?
Is this definitive test to see if the dog is with you at the end or or off running or at the pound? 
Just trying to understand. I think one of my dogs would most definately be within 30 feet at the end of this test, the other dog--too early to even try this definitive test IMHO, have only had her about 2.5 weeks.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I haven't done this exact test, but my dog would be with me. I've had others that definitely would NOT be with me though!

My dog is an American Pit Bull Terrier. One of the traits I selected her for was her willingness to stay with me / go to me.

At 6 weeks, I took the litter out together, played with them for 10 seconds or so, then walked about 20 feet away. The other puppies played with each other, but she came and found me.

She has been trained to stay with the handler no matter what. I can shoo her outside offleash/unfenced and come back out 20 minutes later to get her. She'll be close-by. When I do walk her, she's dragging a leash and I ignore her. She stays at heel.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Michelle, The distance is arbitrary, 2 miles IMO gives the dog enough chances to get lost so if it stays around it's because it chose to, I suppose 1 mile would be a minimum but it also depends on the area. You can lose someone much quicker in rough terrain. I'd say that the dog being within a distance where you can see and call the dog to you at the end of the walk is a success. I heard of people who run the ultimate test this way, if the dog is not there at the end they simply leave. I'm not like that and would sneak a glance that the dog would not be aware of to know where it is. If I were to identify definitively that the dog is not coming I wouldn't continue with the rest of the walk, I'd turn around and pick up the dog.

I'm not sure if it is realistic to expect this from a dog that didn't have the experiences building up to this point although it can be said that it's either in the dog to seek you out or not. Maybe the dog needs to get lost at least once to know what getting lost and missing the master is like. Maybe it needs to satisfy it's curiosity about certain things before it realizes that being with the master is more important. Maybe it's all built in. Think about a pup that strays from its den, do his chances of survival increase or decrease? Is that even applicable to the temperament we want to see in our dogs?

The other factors that were involved in the partial test in my case are that I've only had the dog for 3 months. I have no idea if he was ever taken out of the home with his previous owners. The dog has no experience going out with me on such a walk simply because there is no where to do it that I know of. Where I did attempt it I had to go in a large circle around a lake. At a certain point it was easier for the dog to back track to where it knew it came from as opposed to go look for me. I suppose back tracking was the more sure thing for him once I was out of sight.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

"Having walked for 2 miles do you still have a dog?"

Absolutely. 100%, guaranteed. Whether it's a dog I've raised from a puppy, or a relatively newly imported adult dog.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

My dogs tend to roam right off, do the potty thing and do about 4 miles to my 2, so by mile 2 they are more settled in and hang closer, with their excess energy burned off by then. So I can see if you did the test too short your dog could be farther away from you still feeling his oats and pissing on every tree along the way.

I log alot of miles in with my dogs and have done this numerous times without even knowing I was testing anything. I call it "doggy me time" in that 5 mile walk they can do as they like, chase squirells, rabbits, birds, piss on whatever, relax and do doggy stuff without me nagging them to do this or that. They are free to do as they wish and they still seem to keep tabs on me one way or another.

Most of the times the dogs are out in front, they know to just follow the path but sometimes a smell will hold them up and they are behind me as I keep going, sometimes a smell or animals will lure then off the trail and out to the side a ways. I walk on levees alot, so I am up high and can see a far ways off and down at the dogs and what they are chasing. I enjoy myself, watching them enjoy their freedom to just be. I often wonder what goes threw their heads when they smell stuff or are on a track. How does that info process to them?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Good post Michelle.


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

I have not done this to the long distance but somehat shorter with my 8 month doberman.she will hunt, snif, work etc. but if I move back she will adjust towards me.At this point I can call her in close or go get her and she will stay put.Probably not an A plus for her but workable.Your question did not reference hounds but here is some food for thought.we would turn our **** hounds loose in the woods and on occassion u could not get them because they tracked game so far off or just plain did not find game and kept working further and futher.We would leave a dog box/ crate at the location we turned the dogs loose. when we returned the next day the hounds would be hanging around that location and we would then grab them and take them home.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Having walked for 2 miles, do you still have a dog? Yes, but it's not mine........


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

My dogs have run off leash since I got them - the LabX at 6 months, the Malinois at 9 weeks. The labx is older and dysplastic, so he mostly stays close, the Mal likes to run.

I expect them to keep an eye on me and not get lost, but they do range out and sniff, pee, roll in dead stuff and chase critters. I will whistle them in if I haven't seen them for a few minutes, or if I'm changing direction, but generally leave them alone to enjoy themselves. That's why I'm out walking. I have walked them individually and with groups of dogs. 

Two GSD bitches (mother and daughter) I often walk with range quite a bit further out than my dogs do and usually need to be called back to check in, but my dog doesn't ususally go with them.

At the end of two miles, saying nothing... I'm pretty sure I'd have both my dogs somewhere near me.

And like Todd, I haven't peed without at least one dog in attendance in years.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

jim kirkendall said:


> Your question did not reference hounds but here is some food for thought.we would turn our **** hounds loose in the woods and on occassion u could not get them because they tracked game so far off or just plain did not find game and kept working further and futher.We would leave a dog box/ crate at the location we turned the dogs loose. when we returned the next day the hounds would be hanging around that location and we would then grab them and take them home.


Very interesting thanks. Yes I didn't ask about hounds because I knew they'll range very far, but I didn't know that eventually they'll come back on their own. They sure have the capability to find their way back only their motivation to come back I didn't know about. I think you mentioning this helps put things in perspective.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

I run my dog off leash at times and he strayed only once. Since then he has never gone too far away. He will pick up the pace and run to the gate and wait for me as we near home.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Jenn Ruzsa said:


> "Having walked for 2 miles do you still have a dog?"
> 
> Absolutely. 100%, guaranteed. Whether it's a dog I've raised from a puppy, or a relatively newly imported adult dog.


Curious, what is "relatively new" in your opinion? 

Have you ever done or heard of a test like this? Nothing, not even a glance at your dog. I think its safe to say highly likely the dog(s) would be with me, but 100% guaranteed? 
RIght now, this bitch I have is about ready for heat--no way, no HOW would I even attempt this test at this point, LOL!! But what *if* a female was getting ready for heat cycle, unbeknownst to you (early). Still guaranteed 100%?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Thinking about it, I'm not sure how I would find somewhere to do the test. 

I don't know of a two mile track where I would be certain that there would be no other people, dogs, atv's, snowmobilers, dirt bikers, bicycle riders, horseback riders and with no roads or railway tracks to cross. These things wouldn't cause my dogs to run off, but for reasons of both courtesy to others and safety to my dogs, I would want to call my dogs to me if I encountered them. 

But theoretically, I still think my dogs would be with me at the end.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The herding breed dogs stay close (I'm including the purebred Rottie) and usually don't go more than 50-100 yards, but I would not turn my husky/Rottweiler mix off leash. He's only walked on a long line and would wander away if I didn't. It's not an obedience thing or a bonding thing, more of a breed thing that he takes closer to the husky side of things. I don't take it personally. :mrgreen:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I do this everyday with my dog....I still have her! Actually this is in integral part of my training. This is basiclly how I get the dog to come, pay attention, focus, fall in love with me...the list goes on. I think one of the most pack orientating activities for a dog...is to walk.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Thinking about it, I'm not sure how I would find somewhere to do the test.


You're in Ontario and you can't find a place to do this?  Drive up north to any of the vast parks on a a weekday, very few people. I'd go to Wasaga beach and walk along the beach. Even less chances for the dog to get lost since he's got the water on one side. Come to think about it the beach is the way to go here in S Florida. Once I get the muzzle I'll do it very early on a week day.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think as responsible dog owners we are very concerned about watching what our dogs do and that they don't annoy the public.

When I worked in Zürich I would see some "down and outs" accompanied by their dogs. I once saw one in the subway at the station go on to the escalator without a second's glance for his dog. The dog became slightly anxious, weighed up the siituation if you will - took a leap and landed on one of the moving steps. Such dogs become completely reliant on their owners in a way that ours don't maybe. They get a meal every other day, if they're lucky but they absolutely dote on their owners who, on the other hand, do nothing with them but to share their bed on newspapers under the bridge.

I took my Landseer to Zurich once to the "Bahnhofstrasse" always fully occupied and let him loose (you could then). I ignored him but watched him from a distance. Although a "what does the world cost" type of dog, he mingled with the crowds but one ear, eye was ever tuned to me.

As a reward I let him have a shower in one of the many fountains in one of the squares and he showered the people sitting having coffee outside so we had to scarper.

I agree too with the principle, the dog should be watching you not you the dog but today it's not always possible to effect.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

I was very impressed by this. How many people who own protection dogs or sports dogs can get their dogs to do this. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCX9SMuR10E


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> You're in Ontario and you can't find a place to do this?  Drive up north to any of the vast parks on a a weekday, very few people. I'd go to Wasaga beach and walk along the beach. Even less chances for the dog to get lost since he's got the water on one side. Come to think about it the beach is the way to go here in S Florida. Once I get the muzzle I'll do it very early on a week day.



Wasaga Beach is over 100 miles from my house and I doubt that it would be free of other dogs or people or that off leash dogs are even allowed on the beach. Generally parks/public access areas in Ontario do not allow dogs off leash.

Even when I lived in a very rural and remote part of Ontario, the crown land I ran the dogs on still had the possibility of meeting other people or vehicles, as well as bears, skunks, porcupines and other critters.

Not saying the test can't be done, just saying I would have a hard time finding somewhere to do it.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Re: the video James posted...
You know those dogs are wearing e-collars, right? To me, that is not the same as the topic of discussion here, which is the dog's natural desire to be with their person.

I have an issue with this statement from the guy in the video: "My dogs are allowed to be free - just to be dogs." I didn't see any evidence of that. The dogs were under command the entire time and were obedient due to their e-collar training. Not saying he's a bad trainer either, but he's acting like there's some magic there due to the lack of a leash. All the Sit-Means-Sit folks I've ever met do this exact same thing with their dogs. So, overall, I'm not really impressed with what he's doing. 

And, so no feathers get ruffled, I'm not against e-collar training, just pointing out the tools he's using.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

James Degale said:


> I was very impressed by this. How many people who own protection dogs or sports dogs can get their dogs to do this.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCX9SMuR10E


I felt sorry for the cringing one. Heavy handed training with e-collar, is my guess? At least the other one looked a little happier. I couldn't imagine paying 35,000 - 250,000 for something like that.

Cyko is reliable enough to walk with me to work and back, off leash, but he doesn't look like I'm about to hit him...

Konnie beat me, must have been typing at the same time 
I did not spot the e-collars. I think the guy was a customer who bought the dogs, not the one who did the training. I'm sure he doesn't know all that much about training, based on some of the stuff he says.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Yes, I agree it's something not to be sniggered at.

I could have done it with my Landseer and my Briard, maybe with the Briard and Fila Brasileiro together. However, I didn't need to tell my Landseer or my Fila when to attack. They were always alert. The Landseer could be left anywhere - he waited there for me.

I can't do this with my 2 GSDs, either alone or together. Maybe I'm losing my touch. Maybe I don't want to. My dogs don't need to go and drink coffee with me in the town. I certainly couldn't hold them by their collars if someone attempted to attack me. 

I once started a thread in which I asked "how social does your working dog have to be" as opposed to "how social is your working dog". Only Anna Kashko answered.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not only losing my touch - I'm losing my eyesight. I did wonder if e- training was used but thought I was being niggardly.

Just shows you! I was trying not to be critical.

Thanks Konnie and Anna.

The dogs I could let loose were not e-collar bearers, although I wouldn't criticise the use but not to show videos like this.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

James Degale said:


> I was very impressed by this. How many people who own protection dogs or sports dogs can get their dogs to do this.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCX9SMuR10E


OH my god that video is put out by these guys!?!??!??!? http://www.protectiondogs.com/for_sale/adults_available.shtml

$65,000 for their dogs AHAHAHHAAHAH :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

No comment!


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

I train PPDs and I have to admit that I am envious of these guys. The dogs they sold this chap are fantastic, e collar or not. I suspect a lot of you secretly hope your dogs could go to Starbucks with you, I do. LOL.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

James Degale said:


> With GSDs I find they like to run ahead of you slightly ahead of you turning back to check you are there. Maybe a herder thing.


IMHO this is NOT a herding thing. I have seen it in Retrievers, Spitz breeds, Terriers and MANY mutts of many varieties (not including hounds)

Dogs that are accustom to walking on a trail off leash will often walk ahead and look back to their handler's every now and again. Of course as someone said, all breeds can range behind the handler if caught up in some delicious smell, track, pee whatever...and then will race back eventually.

The only time I see free dogs consistantly range behind or stick to the handler is if they are old and fat, scared, or have been taught via some Cesar M. type that that is the only place a dog can walk if the human wants to be the "alpha":roll:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> IMHO this is NOT a herding thing. I have seen it in Retrievers, Spitz breeds, Terriers and MANY mutts of many varieties (not including hounds)


I must say, you're braver than me if you can turn most spitz breeds off leash. I own a husky mix and I've fostered a little over a half dozen Siberian huskies and mixes, plus a Malamute and a suspected wolfdog, and as a general rule, I don't let fosters off leash in an unfenced in area, but even if I owned a husky/Malamute/etc type dog and worked with it extensively, I still don't know if I'd trust it not to ramble on without me...beagles and huskies are about the last breeds I'd let go off leash!  Almost invariably if we go to the offleash trails around here, you find a beagle off by itself and its unwitting owners at least half a mile behind. :lol: I've seen some husky owners turn theirs off leash and even a wolfdog owner :roll: :roll: :roll: , never seems to be a good idea...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

James Degale said:


> I train PPDs and I have to admit that I am envious of these guys. The dogs they sold this chap are fantastic, e collar or not. I suspect a lot of you secretly hope your dogs could go to Starbucks with you, I do. LOL.


I think you're just envious that they can sucker somebody into spending $65,000 on a protection dog, right???  

Seriously though, I honestly don't think what these dogs do is all that remarkable. Maybe it's higher than the industry standard, I certainly would have no idea about that, but it doesn't impress me in the least.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

James Degale said:


> I was very impressed by this. How many people who own protection dogs or sports dogs can get their dogs to do this.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCX9SMuR10E


I am more disgusted by shysters that pick unsuspecting peoples pockets and sell them on all the ppd crap and false security. 
And if you are impressed by this little dog show then you to have been had.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I must say, you're braver than me if you can turn most spitz breeds off leash. I own a husky mix and I've fostered a little over a half dozen Siberian huskies and mixes, plus a Malamute and a suspected wolfdog, and as a general rule, I don't let fosters off leash in an unfenced in area, but even if I owned a husky/Malamute/etc type dog and worked with it extensively, I still don't know if I'd trust it not to ramble on without me...beagles and huskies are about the last breeds I'd let go off leash!  Almost invariably if we go to the offleash trails around here, you find a beagle off by itself and its unwitting owners at least half a mile behind. :lol: I've seen some husky owners turn theirs off leash and even a wolfdog owner :roll: :roll: :roll: , never seems to be a good idea...


Maren, we have LOTS and LOTS of huskies and husky crosses in our area. Also know malimutes, akita's, elkhounds, american eskimo dogs....all will stick around their owners walking off leash in the bush. 

I think the difference is that these dogs are ALWAYS off leash when walking in the woods, and are walked in the woods ALL the time. Not just on the weekend or some such thing. They grew up doing it with their owners. Hardly anyone walks their dogs on a leash here. Pisses me off actually because although their dogs will stick around the owners...it does not mean that the owners have any great control over their dogs.... :x 

Not saying that there are not dogs of any breed that can't be let off a leash, and I agree with you that the spitz are more independent than most, but my point was that there are spitz breeds that will walk in range, and look back to the handler just as a lab would or a BC would and so on....

I was just commenting on the dog walking ahead thing and looking back for the handler quote.

Not too many people I know have hounds that they can let off leash and even the hunters I know seem loose them often with collars on.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_I was very impressed by this. How many people who own protection dogs or sports dogs can get their dogs to do this. 
_ 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCX9SMuR10E

You can to- learn how to train with an e-collar- you can always have it on for re-inforcement if needed-and no leash needed. (of course when competing they have the ecollars off ) 

I train all of mine with an ecollar- and when I know we are going only on our own property- hiking up the mountain etc- even if they don't have the ecollar on, they still check in frequently even though they are free to run out and about-it is only 40 acres, and fenced, but it gives them a good distance to separate if they wanted to- but if I am walking where there is a lot of distraction- I don't test it, I don't have them on leash necessarily, but will have their ecollars on.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Wasaga Beach is over 100 miles from my house and I doubt that it would be free of other dogs or people or that off leash dogs are even allowed on the beach. Generally parks/public access areas in Ontario do not allow dogs off leash.


I went to Wasaga a few times a month or two before the start of season. The place is desolate. There are leash laws but when no one is around to enforce or bitch about them then.. 


Gillian Schuler said:


> When I worked in Zürich I would see some "down and outs" accompanied by their dogs. I once saw one in the subway at the station go on to the escalator without a second's glance for his dog. The dog became slightly anxious, weighed up the siituation if you will - took a leap and landed on one of the moving steps. Such dogs become completely reliant on their owners in a way that ours don't maybe. They get a meal every other day, if they're lucky but they absolutely dote on their owners who, on the other hand, do nothing with them but to share their bed on newspapers under the bridge.


I've seen what you describe. Your post helped me understand a few things. Before I read it today I was thinking about the motivation of the dog that stays close. How all the things around it on such a walk would seem much more interesting, much more conducive to fulfilling the dog's needs at the time; to stir something up and chase it, to sniff a trail etc. I thought how reasonable is it to expect the dog to leave all those satisfying things in order to be with me. Then I thought that if the case was that by being near me the dog can come to understand that I make interesting things happen, like find some food or point out game for it to chase then it would associate those things with me and look to me as a means of getting satisfaction. The homeless man with his dog/dogs is a perfect example of this. Is there something wrong with this kind of dependence? Does it change the dog's temperament in a way that would make it less suitable for certain duties? I can't see how.

Looking at it this way I wonder what really is the bottom line motivation of a dog that stays near the master when there were no experiences up to that point that would show the dog there's a benefit to it. Is it a neosomething (can't remember the word) behavior? The fact is that we all like it, except people that expect the dog to hunt and range far, because we don't have to worry about where the dog is and getting it to come back to us. But what does it really tell us about the dog's temperament? That the dog doesn't feel comfortable/right or that there are stresses acting on it when we are not around? How does this reflect on the dog's overall self confidence? It gets confusing for me but again the bottom line is that I prefer a dog that doesn't take off to not be seen again until hours later.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

To me getting the balance right with a dog in order to bring the best out of it is made up of the components of obedience and manipulating natural behavior. Obedience I'm clear about, it is obtaining reliable response to a command or cue and is sort of a safety net. The rest, which is a big part, is me trying to figure out how to provide non intrusive experiences for the dog that will go in tune with his natural behaviors but change them to suit my needs. Those two GSD in the video posted earlier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCX9SMuR10E do not IMO fit into the latter category. I think it was strictly obedience. This is not to detract from the training, it's just not what I'm talking about here and not what I'm looking for. I believe I can have my dog on a leash and under control but feeling more free/relaxed than those two dogs. This will make it more likely that the dog take initiative and react on his own to perceived threat as a protection dog should.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I know this might not be a popular idea. But I do it with my dogs and it's worked wonders. When I get a puppy one of the things I do daily is go for a little walk off leash. Since puppies cannot out run me this makes puppyhood a great chance to do this. I walk and do not say a word. I look for little obstacles or wait for the puppy to get distacted. I then just keep walking. Sooner or later the puppy will start to panic, either because it cannot see me, or the obstacle intimidates this. I just keep walking. Sooner or later the dog finds me or negotiates the obstacle. Then I have a wonderful reunion when it gets to me. I believe this is what would happen if a dog was in a natural pack. The other dogs would not call for it, they would just keep walking. and if they did not...this would me abandonment. And abandonment to a puppy means death. So I am playing on a certain part of the dogs insecurity. I make it the dogs responsablitly to keep tabs on me, not me keep tabs on the dog. 

Now, as dogs are older. I have had dogs leave me...same protocol. I just keep going, I may hide and keep watch. But sooner or later the dog panics. This seems to remedy the problem very quick. Also, Taking young puppies out for walks on leash. I believe creates an oppositional reflex for the dog to pull...to get away. All I have seen leashes teach a dog going for a walk, is that they will run once the leash is gone. Now this is not true for every dog...but it sure has a track record in my training of being that way. I have not had a bolter since I have done the off leash walk thing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The video shows "control" over a dog(s). 
Again, that's nothing to do with leadership. 
I wouldn't be afraid to walk through the middle of downtown St. Louis with my dogs off lead. That includes any terriers I've had or Pete, the one I still have. Jusat hope no one would want to pet Pete :lol: 
An eve more important question is;
would your dog(s) come immediately when called or whistled even if out of sight AND no e-collar on?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> An eve more important question is;
> would your dog(s) come immediately when called or whistled even if out of sight AND no e-collar on?


 
Mine does now, and has since he started to mature, when I call his name he comes everytime, full blast, charging pell mell for hell, I am reminded of the cavalry, seriously.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

That would be a matter of training, the more independent and willful the dog the more creative the training would have to be.

Bob, when you say leadership do you mean what I talked about before, where the dog realizes that the master is the means to satisfy his needs?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> That would be a matter of training, the more independent and willful the dog the more creative the training would have to be.
> 
> Bob, when you say leadership do you mean what I talked about before, where the dog realizes that the master is the means to satisfy his needs?


 
That's one way of saying it. 
I often talk about my dogs as being truck dogs. I've also heard it referred to as a "cowboy dog". That's a term that, to me, means you can take the dog anywhere off lead, do anything and have no worrys about the dog over reacting with any environmental issues. If I went into a store the dog waited for me outside. If I needed to go somewher the dog couldn't, I just sent it home. Never figured you had to actually "train" a dog to do this stuff. 
That all started as a kid. When I got a new pup I just expected it to keep up and stay with me. I don't recall doing a lot of formal training. It just happens. 
My first obedience class was in 65-66. That was so I could learn what was needed for competition. Having to put a dog on a leash for something other then going to the vets was just wierd. :lol:
That leash training was what brought out the asshole in me. Started with the Koehlor methods.  :lol: 
Now I'm a nice old granpa and haven't used a physical correction for competition training with my last two dogs. Leadership has been a huge help in doing that.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

When I said that the dogs "dote" on their owners - the "down and outs", I was humanising it obviously. The dogs follow them to survive probably. I've often noticed that the more you ignore a dog and don't care a dang what happens to it, the more it clings.

If you can teach a dog to keep his eye on where you're going and not vice versa - the battle's won but it needs good nerves and you might have to buy more than one dog a year sort of like

Little dog crossing street - car comes - potted meat

Someone said herding dogs are not the only ones who run in front and turn back. Obviously true. You can also train this by calling the young dog back when he leaves a distance of 15 m or so. Advisable here, as we have some trigger-happy gamekeepers. Their club is so mighty that they always get away with it.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> That's one way of saying it.
> I often talk about my dogs as being truck dogs. I've also heard it referred to as a "cowboy dog". That's a term that, to me, means you can take the dog anywhere off lead, do anything and have no worrys about the dog over reacting with any environmental issues. If I went into a store the dog waited for me outside. If I needed to go somewher the dog couldn't, I just sent it home. Never figured you had to actually "train" a dog to do this stuff.
> That all started as a kid. When I got a new pup I just expected it to keep up and stay with me. I don't recall doing a lot of formal training. It just happens.
> My first obedience class was in 65-66. That was so I could learn what was needed for competition. Having to put a dog on a leash for something other then going to the vets was just wierd. :lol:
> ...


Very similar to my experiances when I was kid. MY parents bought me a border collie when I was 13. A great dog for my brothers and I. We were always outside playing ball, building forts or,riding bikes. That dog went everywhere with us off leash. In fact I don't think she even had a leash or collar. She would wait outside of our friends houses for hours. IN some instances she would do this overnight. She was inseperable, and to this day, the smartest dog I've owned. Though the consant "herding" of the bikes got annoying. Always trying to bite the front tire. Never did any formal training until I got my shepherds. I'm not that old but, times seemed much easier back then.:razz:


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## paige hanson (Feb 7, 2009)

My GSD and chi would stay with me during entire walk, the beagle and plott hound would find me at the car when they were done. My GSD does walk with me off leash in public places, we went to the beach and she was right next to me watching everything, only time did she leave my side was when i told her to go out. She also has similar 'reactions' as the two shepherds in the video. When I am agitated by someone she first puts herself between me and the other person, if continued but the person acting calm she will lay down and stretch out to push the person away, if person is aggressive she will circle me and eventually break free and run and jump on the person while barking. This dog has no bite and I don't want a bite on her. She also knows the difference when in a store like Target and out camping, at target you can get close to me but in the woods you better give me some distance.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Mace wouldnt go far. I remember the first time he broke out his kennel and jumped the fence (at 9 months). Once I realized he was no longer in his kennel, I opened the front door and there he was laying on the porch. The fence has yet to be replaced so I let him out through the front to go potty. He goes to the side of the house to the end of the lawn (but NEVER touches the road), one call and hes at the door instanstly. 

I trust him more than I have trusted any of my previous dogs. From the day I brought him home he has been by my side. But as he has gotten older he may venture off in front of me but always checks in and never runs off.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

James Degale said:


> I was very impressed by this. How many people who own protection dogs or sports dogs can get their dogs to do this.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCX9SMuR10E


I have multiple dogs that can do that, well they aren't trained to stop automatically at a curb  And Cali was not trained with a e-collar, nor would she need the collar to behave like that. I've used an e-collar on some of the others in their training but they wouldn't need it either to do what his dogs are doing. 

For me the dogs look well trained, but A) hasn't the owner ever heard of leash laws? B) let's encourage irresponsible ownership and tell people to leave their dogs outside a store/restaurant unsupervised while they go inside for awhile. The owner also keeps emphasizing how his dogs are off leash, I guess he forgot about that "invisible leash" the e-collar gives him.  

I raise my pups similar to what someone else mentioned, leaving them off leash as much as possible when they are young. It developes the habit of the pup staying in my vicinity wherever we go. I also take my dogs EVERYWHERE, in all sorts of environments, so a day out and about in crowds, a parade, in the woods, around livestock, etc are all "the norm" for them.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I would still have all but the bloodhound, although he would find me when his nosy ass realized he was hungry.  

Mine stick with me without me calling them to catch up. They will stop, sniff around and if the Mal flushed a bunny or something she would chase it but she would come back (with or without bunny foo foo).


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I was a kid there was an old man across the street that walked his English Pointer (Duke) all the time and Duke would always run ahead and wait at the curb. He held a perfect heel while crossing, till the old man's foot touched the other curb.
He helped teach it to my GSD x Collie (Taffy) and that's what got me interested in dog training. 
It was another 10 or so yrs before I ever started class type training. That was with a St. Bernard. :-o :lol:


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