# before getting a mal, prep?



## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

i have some questions, for all you Belgium Malinois if you wouldnt mind sharing some tips, answering ?

Fencing. 
Are Belgium Malinois escape artists?
Ive read they can be more so than other breeds, it would seem to be being suggested. 
what has your experience of a mal that is being IPO trained. or equivalent in time/energy you put into them, with them. 

Strength?
26kg adult male Malinois. Is a LOT lighter than my 49kg adult gsd
But Mals are taller than GSD's by an inch or two.
So less strength? 

Are the sayings true?
Here's some sayings ive read here: A german shepherd will go into peak prey drive, and tear across the family garden, to get to prey, going around the child en route. a malinois will go through the child. They dont have brakes. Ferrari etc etc
How much of this is nonsense, how much true


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Mals are as individual as any breed, so all of those things may or may not be an issue for you and your dog. 

For me, my Mal and my Dutchie are not left in the yard unsupervised because my fencing just isn't that great and there are far too many potential escape routes. They are athletic, agile dogs, and quite capable of going over my fence, and if bored, will likely look for interesting things to do. I think this applies to a lot of breeds, not just mals. Worst (or best, given his talent for it) fence jumper I had was a shep/husky/Carolina dog foster who could pop over my 6 foot back gate without missing a stride. 

Strength for what? My mal is a good sled dog and also would drag me all over on leash if I allowed that. Obedience training means he doesn't.

Mals I would agree, are more reckless than other dogs. An impaired sense of self preservation seems to be a breed characteristic. 

I think the best person to ask these questions or what to expect from your Malinois would be the breeder. He/she should know what their dogs are like and what kind of temperament to expect from the pup you select.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I also would not consider a small size as lacking in strength. I've had as hard a time hanging onto a 40lb puppy as my 70lb dogs. Sometimes it's the speed they move at, sometimes it's the desire to go wherever. Either way, you are in for a bit of excitement. Enjoy the ride.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Good post Leslie.

Mal= 3/4 scale, short haired GSD on crack. Ya pays yo money, ya takes your chances.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

shelle fenton said:


> i have some questions, for all you Belgium Malinois if you wouldnt mind sharing some tips, answering ?
> 
> Fencing.
> Are Belgium Malinois escape artists?
> ...


I cant really answer your questions like you would like them answered, as they really dont make much sense to me to be really honest.

1) FENCING- i RECOMMEND FENCING FOR ANY DOG, ANY dog of any breeding can be an escape artist, including GSD...it is an individual dog trait, NOT a "breed" trait. ALTHOUGH FENCES MAY NOT BE NEEDED FOR EITHER DEPNENDING ON WHO OWNS THEM


2) STRENGTH- Strength is also pretty much an individual dog trait, strength in dogs often comes from whats in their head, meaning their mindset and determination to do certain things is what limits their expression of "strength" in certain ways... I am not even sure what you mean by strength exactly. strength in what? meaning what?

2a) not sure where you read mals are taller than GSD, some are taller than some GSD and many are shorter.. and most are a lighter in build a well but I have seen quite a few 85lb plus Mals

again I think it goes back to mindset over height/weight, but of course a dog with stronger frame and bigger muscles with equal mindset should be stronger in most areas as far as brute strength goes

as far as the sayings go, either breed may go around a child or either may go through them, but malis are "generally" faster and have more a higher peak drive/ energy level on average, and some MAY not think as much as react, as do some GSD as well..

hope it helps


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

JRTs are often called Mini-Mals for good reason. :-o

Both are nucking futs but I'm crazy about terriers. 

I've had half a dozen different terrier breeds in adition to terreir mixes.Go figure!

Lots of good Mals out there but I've had two and wont get another.

I've seen to many with environmental issues. Both of mine did.

I can't/wont put up with that


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

There's something about the intensity and craziness of Mals that makes my heart skip a beat when I see a nice one. 

I wanted one for a long time before I got one, did almost no research, luckily found a decent breeder by chance and ended up with a nice dog. He is a colossal pain in the butt, and it was a steep learning curve for me to adjust to living with him, but I would I do it all over again just the same. He opened doors to training I never would have thought possible for me. He is the most intense and volatile and challenging and also the most fun, most willing, full of heart dog I know. He will try anything for me. He is also a big asshole at times. 

Why do you want a Mal?


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> There's something about the intensity and craziness of Mals that makes my heart skip a beat when I see a nice one.
> 
> I wanted one for a long time before I got one, did almost no research, luckily found a decent breeder by chance and ended up with a nice dog. He is a colossal pain in the butt, and it was a steep learning curve for me to adjust to living with him, but I would I do it all over again just the same. He opened doors to training I never would have thought possible for me. He is the most intense and volatile and challenging and also the most fun, most willing, full of heart dog I know. He will try anything for me. He is also a big asshole at times.
> 
> Why do you want a Mal?


+1
Except I didn't know I wanted one until one ended up living with me. Learning curve was steep and required commitment to meeting the dog's needs for physical and mental activity. Now that's she's mellowed some (age 4)and is easy to live with, we have a new lunatic in the house, 15-month-young Dutch Shepherd male. They keep me fit.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> +1
> Except I didn't know I wanted one until one ended up living with me. Learning curve was steep and required commitment to meeting the dog's needs for physical and mental activity. Now that's she's mellowed some (age 4)and is easy to live with, we have a new lunatic in the house, 15-month-young Dutch Shepherd male. They keep me fit.


Yup... liked the first one so much I got one with stripes, too. They are 10 and 6 now and I am enjoying what passes for mellow in Mals and Dutchies.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I will add that fence jumping and other bad habits will only happen with ANY dog/breed if you allow them to. 

There are many dogs, not necessarily just breeds that can slip into bad habits easier then others. 

Setting rules and good maintenance from the get go is key. 

ANY high energy dog could fall in this category.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> There's something about the intensity and craziness of Mals that makes my heart skip a beat when I see a nice one.
> 
> I wanted one for a long time before I got one, did almost no research, luckily found a decent breeder by chance and ended up with a nice dog. He is a colossal pain in the butt, and it was a steep learning curve for me to adjust to living with him, but I would I do it all over again just the same. He opened doors to training I never would have thought possible for me. He is the most intense and volatile and challenging and also the most fun, most willing, full of heart dog I know. He will try anything for me. He is also a big asshole at times.
> 
> Why do you want a Mal?


 This +1


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

I guess some of my questions dont make sense, re reading them. Thanks for responses though. 

Here is why i asked these questions and responses to answers.

Escape artist. 
My experience with 4 working GSD's, and 3 working rotties, is they DONT leave the property, even without a fence. They stay close to home. For the 1st 4yrs they never had a fence. They dont need a fence to keep them here. They choose to stay. And this has been my experience of having very close relationships with my dogs. They dont bugger off. People who post their dogs are escaping indicates to me something wrong. 
But had read a few articles that suggested they can be. Articles did not state: working line dog being kept as a yard dog which would explain it away easily. 

Strength.
I ask, as my brute sized GSD covers me in bruises, can out tug me, deck me, bowl me over for his kicks. Im hoping for a weaker less heavy dog i guess. But i aggree, dumb ass question. IM human, you get that.

Why a Mal?
My research demonstrated that 'fire in the belly' quality, for all three elements of Schutzhund, was consistently more prevalent in the Mals to the GSDs. That the appearance of the dog/handler relationship is more intense (to my eyes), and its the relationship im addicted to with dogs i train. My research was to visit x 3 Schutzhund clubs, watching trial after trial on youtube, and joining a club with my GSD 7 months ago to get me ready, and getting to observe pups, young and mature mals, AND GSD's working, i prefer the appearance of the Mal. And the judges seem to agree. 
The health of the breed, is excellent, in comparison to the GSD in Australia, not sure about other countries, but Mal's win by a long shot on breed health complaint stats. Ive lost some great GSD's to cancer. I dont want to go there again!
I picked my favourite dogs i saw performing, and approached the breeder of all 3 of em! I got references from my club sent to the breeder, and was accepted as a home that will continue to advance the kennel name in Schutzhund. So in other words, opportunity was available for the best line pup Australia has to offer me. I took it!
Maintenance: rub down with an oily rag type. Love it! Never complained about this, but like the fact they require less maintenance is a big bonus. 

Why do i believe they are smaller?
Breed standards say so.
Why do i believe they weight less?
Breed standard says so.
But of course, there are many variations, including the 'mini mal myth' but im looking at generally, as per breed standard for both breed of dogs. and its a maths thing. They simply are.
My GSD is 2 inches taller than breed standard allows, and weighs 50kg. Appears 1/3 larger than the GSD's i meet out. So this dog is going to be smaller in comparison due to individual differences.

I am very familiar with dogs that are working line, very intense drives, that would be a disaster in a pet home.I dont intend to offer it a family pet alone lifestyle. We're working class and proud of it here! that goes for dogs too here. Being a great family dog, of course! that's a given if my history of working dogs is anything to go by. My dogs knock the kids over accidentally, but kid should be more agile, surely lol and ive never had a dog run _through_ a kid, they jump over, go around them here. The knocking over comes in confined hallways etc.So was a little alarmed that a Mal would run through a kid. 
(Here, there is a rottie stuck to the 18 month kid like velcro, that should slow any pup considering barging into the kid. Or it will corrected by the rottie for being stupid around _her_ kid. She is great at judging level of corrections, far better than i. 

I have my first trial with my GSD, after 8 weeks of training, we will be taking our BH in Schutzhund in Feb. This is my first ever Schutzhund trial. Im hooked, and cant wait for the pup. 
Talking about the pup, making all the equipment, is a substitute for HAVING the pup, that is taking bloody ages to get bred, delivered and here! Forgive my over enthusiasm and gushing. That's me. Im like that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Your comparisons between the GSD and Mal are pretty accurate for the most part but there are always individuals in every breed.

Both my GSDs are W/German over Czech but they have totally different personalities and totally different looks.

My 12 yr old had been a thinking dog from the get go and I realized he was the best dog I ever owned by the time he was 6 months old.

Rock solid temperament with me and anyone he's been introduced to.

He's as close to Von Stephanitz's description as any dog I've ever seen.

My 8 yr old is still as crazy and driven as any terrier I've owned.

He has to be talked to quietly if you want to pet him or he squeals like a little girl and races around the yard like a Tazmanian Devil when I say hi! 

His "happiness" borders on insanity. :grin:

Very handler soft and loves the world but still has a dark side.

Both have excellent response to all my commands.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm sure you'll do fine with your mal :razz:

the cliches people use over and over to describe things about dogs are often over generalised or just plain inaccurate. "reach your hand out and let a new dog sniff it to see if it's friendly" is a classic ](*,)

all dogs need ground rules and one of mine is that the first time they try and run "through" a kid is their last. a mini bull terrier comes to mind. small but compact and muscular. I was with the owners at a park when i first started working with them and when i was working the dog on a long lead it charged right through a little kid. as the owners started giggling i walked up the lead and hung the dog straight up and it caused a brief argument. 
- i just told them that would not be tolerated when i was with the dog and if they thought it was cute they needed to find another trainer. as it turned out, i also found out the dog would bite them in the house when they allowed it to run amok. they thought all this was a "bully breed trait" but they soon learned it was not  

you often get more than you want if you like to rough house with your dog. the one i have has always been willing to bite me if i allowed him to amp up, and even tho it wasn't done with the intent to fight me, his teeth still hurt....so he has learned not to....plenty of other things he can bite
- you don't have to go "full Cesar" and constantly dominate it, but i DO think it's a good idea that a dog learns it might get stepped on if it doesn't yield the right of way when it's flaked out on the floor where you need to walk. another couple who had been watching the TV show said their dog would bite them when they tried to walk thru it. what they DIDN'T say was that they thought the "pack leader" mantra applied even when the dog was sleeping on the floor .... just goes to show you can't always assume common sense :-(

you definitely have a big gsd !
some trivia to put it in perspective...
we just got two new additions to our Navy mwd kennels. both are on the smallish side but both are VERY quick and agile. i haven't caught them but both handlers say they hit hard. both are gsd's. the ones we have had have usually been on the smaller side from what you might imagine. they are still out there


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Ahh... excitement, rather than second thoughts and apprehension. Sounds like you'll do fine. 

Mals may be smaller, on average, than GSDs but it's also the sleeker coat that amplifies that appearance. At the club, one of the guys had a big male GSD. When he asked us to guess his dog's weight, we were all guessing in the 90-95 range. Nope. 100lbs.? Nope. Actual weight, by vet scale was 70 lbs., same as my Mal. :-o The heavier GSD coat really does add to the impression of size. 

Have you decided on male or female?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I've got two "small mals" they are very cool. They are built like PBT's under their fur, they weigh more than they look. They are cool, Mals are cool.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Not too fussed about gender of the pup.
Its way down on my boxes to tick list. But male if i have choice between 2 suitable pups.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Of all the dogs I've personally owned since I left home I've only had 4 females.

Growing up at home that's all we had because dad thought males were "nasty roamers with a lot of bad habits". ](*,):roll:


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Out yesterday, met a 15 week mal pup. Owner friendly, and clueless re how to intro dogs, just allowed the pup to come charging up to my dogs. 
Thankfully, my GSD behaves as if other dogs and people are invisable and ignored it, the rottie pinned it, sniffed it, flipped it over then play bounced at it so it would chase her.
Nippy little buggers arent they!

Pup was rather bloated, i asked if it had been fed. Yep, just before he brought it out to let it run off leash. 
So i have another question:

Bloat? what are Mal's like for bloat? 
I have 2 deep chested dogs, and im cautious about bloat having lost a rottie dog to this many years ago.

My christmas presents arrived yesterday from my family. P&P process was too slow for xmas delivery. 
Has everyone seen a puppy sized fur saver collar? Seriously cute.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

search under : Gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) aka: bloat
lots of pretty good refs out there that might be worth studying
you will find the breeds listed that are prone to bloat
most advice relies on common sense feeding and watering guidelines

you generally won't find mals listed as being prone to bloat but that doesn't mean they couldn't bloat. if you are very worried you can get a tummy tuck as a way to prevent it and then no more worries

most mwd gsd's get the procedure since there isn't much you can do if it happens where vet care isn't readily available. it's not major surgery, but i wouldn't let any vet do it unless they convinced me they had experience performing the procedure

i suggest channeling your excitement while waiting into building some training aids for the new arrival. will help your current pack too 
- obstacles, uneven surfaces, balancing boards, jumps and other canine challenges
- you can never have too many training aids


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A bloated pup can sometimes indicate worms but when they are that bad it will show as pale gums and often not very active.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

I have a pretty good understanding of bloat. Have the first aid intervention ready, know how to apply this. With deep chested breeds, bloat is common, and majority of breeds ive owned, have been deep chested.
I take normal precautions: dont feed before exercise, bowls raised, rocks in food to slow my chow hound down when she eats.
But Mal's are not listed as prone. But they are kinda new here. Cant imagine selecting to have surgery for it though as a preventative. But each to their own. surgery has risks too. Vets, just like Dr's, are often incompetent in resuscitation i presume. And i don't have much choice for vet. There's one.

Re: equip. I have all things leash/collar/tugs/sleeves already. 
I'm working on 2 blinds currently. 
Ive purchased a 2nd hand see saw that's perfect.
A boogie board (small surf board) for use in the dam as unstable slippery surface, or on dry land wobble board for body awareness.
3 step stool to climb

any suggestions for more? 

Some news: breeder emailed me, veterinary has confirmed pregnancy.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Any dog can get bloat. Deep-chested dogs are more prone to it but, yes, a mal can get it too. Just something to be cognizant of.

You remind me a lot of me when I get a new pup. My best suggestion is let the pup be a pup. Yes, expose him to stuff but scale it down to his level. Before dumping him on a teeter-totter, have him learn to walk a plank first. The plank doesn't have to be 5 ft off the ground, 18 inches works just fine because if he jumps off there is less risk of injury when he hits the ground.

Some pups have no sense of fearfulness or self preservation. Plus they are full of impulses and do things that catch you by surprise. 

Don't let him jump off the plank or any apparatus if you can help it. What you don't want is the pup bailing from one situation into a worse one. Jumping off the plank at 18in off the ground is one thing but when its 6-7-8 ft up the risk of injury is higher.

You can take a couple of wooden pallets and make a jumbled pile and let the pup wander around on them or a pile of concrete blocks or other construction debris. You can lay a ladder horizontal and let him walk from rung to rung but hold off until he's big enough unless you make a 2x4 training ladder to practice on.

Get a agility tunnel and have him practice going through that with and without the bag on the end.

There's probably more but can't think of anything else. Just have fun. Enjoy the pup while he is a pup and don't forget to baby proof the house.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You can also use the ladder when laying on the ground to learn rear end awareness.

Initially walk the dog the length on leash to keep it on the ladder.

You can then raise it on bricks as the dog improves.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Bob Scott said:


> His "happiness" borders on insanity. :grin:


Ive shown my husband your post, he says, you must have our dogs brother! 
The hardest work, the best result though


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Sarah Platts said:


> Any dog can get bloat. Deep-chested dogs are more prone to it but, yes, a mal can get it too. Just something to be cognizant of.
> 
> You remind me a lot of me when I get a new pup. My best suggestion is let the pup be a pup. Yes, expose him to stuff but scale it down to his level. Before dumping him on a teeter-totter, have him learn to walk a plank first. The plank doesn't have to be 5 ft off the ground, 18 inches works just fine because if he jumps off there is less risk of injury when he hits the ground.
> 
> ...


Tunnel, great idea. 
baby proofing. Yep, underway. 
No agility off ground, jumping etc. Its a given. Ive seen xrays of pup development of hip joints. There is no ball and socket joint till around 6 months. 
pile of wood to explore, too easy
ladder walking rung to rung, now that'd be interesting and challenging. 
Brilliant ideas! thanks


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I think most of the bloat prevention things are fallacy. I've had loads of deep chested dogs, I can't actually see how this structure makes any difference. My dobermans eat every meal like they are never having another one then go out for training. Bloat is a problem with digestion and in my opinion, which is all it is, is either a genetic fault, a feeding fault or both.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

shelle fenton said:


> Tunnel, great idea.
> baby proofing. Yep, underway.
> No agility off ground, jumping etc. Its a given. Ive seen xrays of pup development of hip joints. There is no ball and socket joint till around 6 months.
> pile of wood to explore, too easy
> ...


Just remember that what you think is easy may not be for the dog. Even "easy" teaches life skills. Climbing teaches coordination and skills in foot placement. Body movement and weight management when the position shifts them off balance helps teach them how to recover without panic or bailing off the apparatus. EVERY exercise should be easy when starting. Easy helps build confidence and the groundwork of problem solving skills. The real skill is on the owner to assess and adjust the learning bar without shutting the puppy down or creating a life long issue.

I just see myself in you with the enthusiasm and wanting to get an early start on his education. I know I pushed some aspects of my various puppies to hard to fast. This made me back up steps and wait for the puppy to grow up. My best advice is to provide a mentally stimulating and a great exploring environment.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

shelle fenton said:


> Ive seen xrays of pup development of hip joints. There is no ball and socket joint till around 6 months.


really? no ball and socket joint?


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

yes Jodie
Im searching for the article with the xrays in it to post. Cant find it. But will post when i do.
Its really shocked me to see how the femur is really just a stick, that sits in the socket, with the ball beginning to form around 3 months, and not fully 'ball and socket' till around a year. It certainly drove home why there is to be no jumping, or over exercising the pup. 
Im going to be very cautious indeed. Having forked out for 2 ACL surgeries without insurance cover, very cautious indeed. 

With regard to puppy proofing the house. Last night, i noticed the gorgeous rope lights that light up the lawn area, and thought.... Im going to have to remove that for a year or so. 

Then as we leave for our walk. Geese/Ducks/Chooks to walk through to get out the gate.
Then once in first paddock, 12 roos to be ignored. 
Wow, this is gonna be such fun, counter training the pup. 
Seems daunting a task, but i look at my 2 dogs, and my son's dogs who visit for day care, and they all are well trained around the animals not to chase. They do however guard them. 

And swimming in around the ducks, as we have to share the damn with mother nature. Noticing the ducks dont even move when the dogs are retrieving balls near them. The dogs have trained the ducks not to fly off, that they are safe. Bet the pup swimming puts a spanner in that works!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Shellie, I don't expect that PH evaluations are done where you are but how do you presume that they obtain the DI on 16 week old pups if a ball and socket doesn't exist just yet?

BTW congrats on your upcoming new arrival.

Matt, about bloat yup. I do all the same things you do and as far as the (suspected) cause, I'll take it one step further and say that I believe that it stems from a genetic predisposition to digestive malfunction specifically in relationship to the Vagus nerve. 

I don't know the history of bloat but I do believe that it's very likely a manufactured condition that may be interrelate to vaccinations (not entirely of course). Supportive research on this, last I checked which was about 2 years ago was difficult to find but I have maintained this position for about 11 years. I was led to this conclusion after doing some research to an unrelated human condition which seems to strongly support it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

There are certain breeds that are prone to bloat.

The Geat Dane is probably at the top of that list.

No doubt it's more common today simply because the many health issues with dogs aren't always taken into consideration today.

In the past dogs with whatever issues were often culled or at the very least kept from breeding.

As to puppy proofing a house, my wife as been puppy proofing our house since day one

....................and they keep on getting in. :twisted: :grin: 8-[ :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> No doubt it's more common today simply because the many health issues with dogs aren't always taken into consideration today.


Sure… but I never found that stating the obvious is really any form of real wisdom Bob.

Next. :-?

How about, priorities and thresholds are different today? Think about those stupid self righteous ****s living in those 3000sf+ homes with a bathroom to every bedroom and a "man cave" = used to be garage. And they use that as a measuring stick for "success"… :-k


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

shelle fenton said:


> yes Jodie
> Im searching for the article with the xrays in it to post. Cant find it. But will post when i do.
> Its really shocked me to see how the femur is really just a stick, that sits in the socket, with the ball beginning to form around 3 months, and not fully 'ball and socket' till around a year. It certainly drove home why there is to be no jumping, or over exercising the pup.
> Im going to be very cautious indeed. Having forked out for 2 ACL surgeries without insurance cover, very cautious indeed.
> ...


here is xray of 4 month old puppy hips


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Thanks Jodie
to my untrained eye, there's a couple of ball n socket joint there. mmm, this is good news, as from the xrays i had seen, it supported the ball and socket grew in. That the ball was forming, but definately not a ball. 
wish i could find the darn pics, but cant. Im happy to reverse my opinion, in the face of that xray though!

Still wanna be cautious on the heights/jumping etc. As seems sensible in a dog that is not known for its braking system. 

MY GSD was climbing our 70ft pepper corn tree by 20 weeks in my back garden. as he can see for miles once up there. Great sentry guard position. Very hard to keep him on the ground ever since. Nimble little bugger though, never fell. 

Bloat. < its on my list of fears. Along side snake bite. As you are not going to get a vet fast enough for either. When i consider these things, im fearful, so tend not to think too much about it. 

PH evaluations and D1. NOpe, my mind is blank. Are you talking about having the hips xray?
Is this necessary? why?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Sure… but I never found that stating the obvious is really any form of real wisdom Bob.
> 
> Next. :-?
> 
> How about, priorities and thresholds are different today? Think about those stupid self righteous ****s living in those 3000sf+ homes with a bathroom to every bedroom and a "man cave" = used to be garage. And they use that as a measuring stick for "success"… :-k


No 1 no doubt an obvious statement but I don't get where your at with the "self righteous ****s living in those 3000sf homes" etc. :-k:-k

For myself I grew up one of seven kids in a two bedroom, one bathroom, 800 sq ft house. 

Wife and I raised our three kids in a three bedroom, one bathroom, 860 sq ft house. 

We sold that house shy of 9 yrs ago for little more then 50 thou to get out of a crime ridden hood. 

I was lucky.

Houses in that area now go for 10 - 12 thou........ with luck and many of the rest are, deserted, torn down or burned to the ground.

Am I successful? HELL YES!

I've been blessed with a fantastic wife of 59 yrs come Sept. Three great kids and five grandkids of which all were/are top students and four that can add outstanding athletes to that.

I now live in a three bedroom, two bathroom, 1500 sq ft house in very nice, multi cultural neighborhood. 

That's all success to me! :grin: :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob, I merely meant I was agreeing with what you said. I just said it differently. Times have changed, the focus is different. What is deemed a success or acceptable today not just in dogs but seemingly in every aspect of life has changed and often doesn't fit into established tried and true ideals.

BTW, my memory is rather bothersome in its capacity for detail unfortunately and I am simply plagued by a low tolerance for boredom spurred by repetitive rhetoric. I wasn't suggesting you weren't successful, I was making a rather pointed statement about how some people measure success while conveniently ignoring other more obvious components that are fundamental or necessary. More on topic, as in focusing on traits in dogs of seemingly little consequence while ignoring others of critical proportions.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Understood and agree! 

I said 59 yrs. It is only 49.......and no, it doesn't seem longer. :lol: 

I'm just getting more forgetful and I never could count. :grin:  :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

No worries, I knew what you meant. And I know you are a happy man with diverse interests that you still enjoy. Some people never have the good fortune to achieve half of what you have. Enjoy!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks! 

Way to many my age have decided they are to old to have a good time.

Their loss. I'm looking forward to my third.......:-k or maybe it's my forth childhood.:twisted: :grin: :wink:


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

What can appear easy, is very hard.....

Just got back from camping trip. Found something really easy. For me to walk across a 1 foot wide, yes, that's 12 inches wide, beam of wood. To reach the other side of river. The drop into the river, roughly 3 foot. The river whilst fast running, was up to my waist. So if i fell, dignity is all i would lose.

I shit myself. my knees were like jelly. Fear factor for some sodding reason was 10/10! Dogs would not get on plank of wood. They kept getting in the river to swim across. 
MY nerves are weakening, never mind the pup to arrive!
What's happened to me? 
So lets build up some confidence. So sod the log, i wade in, up to my waist, and get across the river. Im wet, the damage is done, so then try to walk that plank again. Easy. ???? Fear factor 1/10.
And my dogs, just walked across the plank after me no issues.

Now there's a temperament issue ive stumbled across, only its my temperament, and passing it onto my dogs issue


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Good observation on your part. Sounds like you have a good opportunity to push your own thresholds while expanding the world a bit for your dogs. Nice.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kudos to you! 

An honest effort will always bring success.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

http://www.vdrrottweilerbreeders.com/rottweiler-puppy-hip-xrays.html

this is the link to the article on hip/elbow D
this is why i had thought the ball socket joint not fully formed till around 6 months.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Do you know what bloodlines the parents are, e.g. French, Belgian, Dutch, and what traits are the breeding likely to produce? The prey drive will be there, but what about things like nerves, sharpness, social vs. aloof , mistrustful, etc.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

parents:
Sire: Lennox van de Berlex-Hoeve imp. Germany, DNA tested.
(Gary de la Vallée des Nutons​X Kat DeLuna van de Berlex-Hoeve) .

Dam: Lilo von der Krähenschmiede imp. Germany 
(Lupano's Duke x Dinga v.d. Krähenschmiede​)

OR


Sire: Nordenstamm Prix A.I. (Kasper Airport Hannover x Nordenstamm Kastra)

Dam: Nordenstamm Yves i.i.u. Germany (Pitu v. Further Moor x Lilo v.d. Krähenschmiede)

Both matings at same time. Both litters are in the option basket for me. I will know what pup i am getting when they are tested for working temperament at 6-7 weeks. All hip/elbow scores are good, eye's and DNA testing of parents good in both litters. All dogs DNA tested and free of disease.
​


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

you know I hate to be a knob but all that pedigree stuff looks nice but what does it mean in real life?

If you've seen the parents, which ones are bringing out or showing the qualities you like?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You also have to take into consideration if these are repeat breedings or a first time.

There is a lot to genetics and selecting breeding partners based on that but a first time breeding can also be a big crap shoot.

If these aren't first time breedings are there any adult get from the earlier breedings that can be at least a hint towards what to expect from the breedings?

Even the best bred to the best is never a guarantee.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Certainly, there are no guarantees in any litter that it will have what i seek. 
But ive narrowed the odds in my favour for pup's health, temperament, and working ability in these lines.
I hope, anyhow. 
proof of the pudding n all that. 
So we'll see what i end up with.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Your looking for the right things! :wink:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

yes, you're looking for all the right things

but what exactly does this mean ?
-- "DNA testing of parents good in both litters. All dogs DNA tested and free of disease."
WTF ??.....that sounds like typical breeder's hype to me 
there are genetic diseases that can be specifically tested for, BUT if they don't say what they have tested for i wouldn't believe any generalized statement.....ALL dogs have DNA; it doesn't need to be tested //LOL//
---- "free of disease" is about as vague as it gets

i would be more interested in the longevity of the bloodlines ... 
- how many breeders are prepared to provide specifics on that ? ...VERY few, and they all have 'stock' reasons why it's difficult 
- but for me, the best confirmation of healthy bloodlines is how long they live. period

breeders who don't try hard to track their litters and follow up on their sales don't impress me nearly as much as those who do


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

I have never ever paid so much for a puppy. It grips me a bit, that i am paying this much. But that's the price of pedigrees here. And the only one for that price, where its on the main register and i will own it outright. Other litters came with contracts, where breeder would have claims on the dog. And i could be as involved as i wished < that to me, was not acceptable. I wanted a dog i owned outright. Sure the breeders name will always be in the pedigree papers, that was cudos enough! Any achievements the dog made, would be our hard work together. and i never got to see one of these contracts, so unsure details. But it put me off big time. 

I have another query. Bark Collars for long haired GSD. 
Do they work for fence barking? Would the contact point work on a long haired GSD?

Im loathe for him to teach my pup this behaviour. Wondering about a bark collar, put on when i go out, so pup does not learn to fence bark with him. 

Behavioural management has been very effective when i am there to enforce it. Not when left alone. So a partial solution only. 

I have 2 dogs, soon 3. I dont have knowledge of the collars, would dog A collar, be activated by dog B barking?
is it sound or vibration activated?

Is this a workable solution?
or are there better options to try.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I tried one of the very early bark collars back in the late 60s or early 70s. 

It was a disaster!

I had three large dogs at the time and used it only one one who was a terrible fence fighter.

It took me a less then a week or so to realize that anything at all would set it off. 

My other two dogs barking, fire or police going by with sirens on, me starting my motorcycle.

Hell! I think a bird farting on the fence would set it off and it only fired him up more. 

After I took it of it was setting on the kitchen counter and the wife, wondering how it worked, barked in it with her thumbs on the prongs. :-o:-o:-o:-o:-o I threw it out!

I was talked into trying one again about 9-10 yrs ago.

Everyone said nothing else would set it off. 

They were correct but when the dog started fence fighting he would let out a yelp with the first bark and then go in total rage and scream right through it. 

Sold it cheap!


I suppose with the right dog they will do the job but I'll not use one again.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Different collars have different features. Mine is vibration activated, so must be in contact with the throat to work, and has a delay so it's not activated by a vocalization in response to the stim. It has 10 levels. 

Side story... wasn't sure it was working, so took it off the dog, turned it down to a low level and put it against my throat to test it. I was at a light in the car, so didn't really look at it, just adjusted it by feel. Turned it up instead of down. YIKES! I now have an appreciation of why my dog does not bark in his bark collar.

Some collars have escalating levels - starts low, but if the dog keeps barking, gets stronger. Re-sets after a period of silence. 

More features, more money, usually. 

I'm not sure that would be the best solution for fence-fighting. As Bob suggested, it may just amp up the dog, rather than discourage the behaviour. 

If anyone has a good way to fix fence-fighting, I'd be interested. I ended up blocking access to the section of fence on one side of my yard with the problem dogs after my DS tried to scale the fence to get in there with them. Pulled her down from hovering on the top rail six feet up. Not sure what she planned to do when she got in there. 

Neighbour's dog on the other side is non-reactive to my dogs, but was in full battle mode with my boyfriend's dog when he shoved himself under the chain link. Then everything stopped and he wandered around the yard sniffing and peeing and play bowing while his owners came to get him. Dogs are weird.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Shelle...
... there are threads about this in the archives if you enter the right search terms

re : YOUR bark collar Q
based on what you wrote, i suggest u cross it off your list of things you could use unless you first learn Ecollar basics from someone with a track record who can convince you they know what they are doing

my biased opinion :
- a bark collar is dumb
it doesn't have any clue what it is doing or why
- others have given examples of why they are dumb and often don't work; would you some more experiences ?? //LOL//
- the only reason i could see to buy one and try it would be because the owner wasn't willing to put in the time and effort to TRAIN their dog, and thinks a tool on "auto pilot" would work better and/or faster which is a BAD justification to me ](*,)](*,)
- if they buy it because of what the label says it does they are mostly swallowing a marketing hook
- the bark "modes" can ALL be done better by an Ecollar controlled by a human with eyes on the dog .... would you disagree with that ? if not, than my definition of "dumb" seems valid and not just a personal opinion
- or.....need it because you aren't around to train ? also not a valid reason in my book 

any i like Ecollars so i'll ramble on 
- probably the ones that work the best are due to the finger on the trigger rather than the brand and model number
- i'm not an expert but i think i have a pretty good grasp on how to incorporate an Ecollar with OC in different situations
- have used em for controlling barking at a fence when another dog is on the other side...the more features it has the more flexibility it gives me, so i like new features....currently using an Pro Educator PE900 and like the new set up but still learning how to use it well
- but the bottom line of comparing an Ecollar to a bark collar is a no brainer for me. Bark collars are D.U.M.B. and EVERYTHING is left to chance. An Ecollar operated by a human takes more time, but it's easy to set up the dog(s) and training environment, and easy to control the sessions. never seen a study, but might even work quicker than a bark collar. if you know of a study, please post it

- next to impossible to explain how to use one in a video, but Larry posted one awhile back that was pretty cool. check it out; you WILL learn something by watching Larry
- you DEFINITELY won't learn how to use one effectively by the RTFM method (reading the freaking manual) 
- and like any other training method ... not all Ecollar methods are created equal ... i could list three vary different ways of training the same behavior by very well known trainers, but you can find out that yourself in a quick internet search session ... as well as how to match contact points to the dog's coat length //LOL//

i don't think fence fighting is an appropriate topic in a working dog forum, but if others feel it's relative, someone please start a thread....i'll definitely jump in 
- i'd like to hear from people who have dealt with that problem and the specifics of what they did to control it


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Thanks, seems the stim escalates the drive. So id be going in the wrong direction for shut up. 
Good to know.

Did search for Bark collar threads, came up with 2, neither answered the questions id put. Hence why i posted.

@ Bob: or.....need it because you aren't around to train ? also not a valid reason in my book :smile: 
Yep, that's me! Unfortunately, i am someone who has to work, ie. leave my dog behind, who then fence barks. I cant afford to be home all day. I have stopped the behaviour occurring when i am in the home/property by training the dog to not bark. it only occurs after i leave for work, according to my neighbour who is complaining.

From an E collar point of view, any tool is only as good as the craftsman wielding it. So e collar would with a good trained finger on button will always be best. But as im not at home during this behaviour, not workable.
I know from watching dogs being trained with E collars, that the dogs know if the thing is on or off. So unsure how this response of dont bark, trained with E collar, would affect a dog without the collar. I am thinking it will know, and start gobbing off at the unsupervised chance to do so. 

Not a suitable question for a working dog forum. Fair enough. thanks for the rule explanation.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

shelle fenton said:


> I have stopped the behaviour occurring when i am in the home/property by training the dog to not bark. it only occurs after i leave for work, according to my neighbour who is complaining.


I had this happening with my neighbor. Found out their kid was deliberately teasing the dogs unbeknownst to the parents. After a period of time all the dogs had to do was smell him and they would sound off. Don't know if this is what's happening with the neighbor but it could be due to some action (maybe innocent, maybe not) on their part.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's similar to what happened with my dogs. Persistent domestic violence between my neighbors set the dogs off, then it was transitioned to the mere presence of them because of their abnormal behavior resulting from excessive drinking. Eventually, one of my dogs was shot by my neighbor. Later during a verbal altercation he that suggested they should be euthanized because all they do is bark. There is not a rational solution for this situation except me keeping the dogs quiet. I cannot control these people but I do have a responsibility to control my dogs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

@ Bob: or.....need it because you aren't around to train ? also not a valid reason in my book :smile:


More like they didn't do the job.

The first one was a early type that had no range control. It just blasted the crap out of the dog.

He was one of the few dog's I've owned that I can say wasn't sound. 

He looked like Old Yellar and pretty much always acted like Old Yellar.........in the corn crib.:-o

We had many wars back in the day and I'm embarrassed to say I beat him silly on more then one occasion and he never said uncle.

The second collar was just not something the (different) dog tolerated. He ignored all but the highest level and when it got high enough it just created a rage in him.

I agree with all that say they shouldn't be used if your not in a situation to control the situation.

With my dogs being outside 24/7 I wouldn't even use a remote controlled e-colar since there would be to many times I wouldn't be home.

That would only create an inconsistency in when it could be used and as someone else mentioned, I can't control my neighbors or their dogs. 

I will say that I can control both my present GSDs when they start fence fighting with nothing more then a tap on the window but that started when both were very young but there are times I'm not home and know it happens.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

so Shelle ... looks like fence fighting is a valid issue here ;-)

... they sell a zillion bark collars every year....](*,)
where are all the trainers that have used them successfully and why can't they describe how they did it in some amount of detail and explain how great they are ???
...maybe because lazy pet owners are mostly the ones buying them ?

personal anecdotes and blaming the neighbors really provides no advice on how to fix a fence fighter
...if it really is a problem unto itself 
--- personally i don't think that is the root of the problem of dogs barking at fences or dogs, or the people standing near them

but i most certainly DO think the problems are VERY often magnified by people who pass by and harass dogs
...but in the same light, i have found that working your dog around a barking dog behind a fence can be a VERY effective training aid for BOTH dogs, whether the "other dog owner" appreciates or not


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I was required to put a bark collar on my dog at training because excessive barking in vehicles was not allowed at the club. Their rules. 

I have also used it travelling in my vehicle in the city because my dog loses his mind at cyclists and having a screaming malinois first thing in the morning on the way to the park makes me stabby. If he doesn't fire up, the DS tends to not bark as well. 

It does also seem to have a suppressing effect. Perhaps not ideal, but preventing the barking in the first place means the dog doesn't get into winding up and spinning out into orbit. 

I would not put one on my dog and leave it on while I left for the day. Especially if they are outside with another dog. Preventing or punishing them from barking and communicating seems very unfair.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> I would not put one on my dog and leave it on while I left for the day. Especially if they are outside with another dog. Preventing or punishing them from barking and communicating seems very unfair.


 Agreed. As a general rule, I do not leave my dogs out in the yard unless I am home. I also agree that I wouldn't recommend that anyone should put a bark collar on their dog and leave them outside while they are off at work. 

Stabby? Nice word. :twisted:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> where are all the trainers that have used them successfully and why can't they describe how they did it in some amount of detail and explain how great they are ???
> ...maybe because lazy pet owners are mostly the ones buying them ?


 There's dialogue to be had on this topic. I'm surprised you haven't noticed by now that for whatever reason many of the people here don't seem to be interested in engaging with you or answering your questions. 

I think it seems to stem from your inability to contain or better neutralize yourself better when trying to get people to engage with you intelligently. You do have a tendency to come across as a case of arrested development. If he sounds like a dick, looks like a dick, well, he's probably a dick.

Lazy pet owners... LOL ah, yeah. Hey Rick. Achtung. Achtung. ACHTUNG. Nagging correction, nag, nag, nag. Achtung. Oh, he's just distracted right now. Nag. Nag. Achtung.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Nicole Stark said:


> There's dialogue to be had on this topic. I'm surprised you haven't noticed by now that for whatever reason many of the people here don't seem to be interested in engaging with you or answering your questions.
> 
> I think it seems to stem from your inability to contain or better neutralize yourself better when trying to get people to engage with you intelligently. You do have a tendency to come across as a case of arrested development. If he sounds like a dick, looks like a dick, well, he's probably a dick.
> 
> Lazy pet owners... LOL ah, yeah. Hey Rick. Achtung. Achtung. ACHTUNG. Nagging correction, nag, nag, nag. Achtung. Oh, he's just distracted right now. Nag. Nag. Achtung.


This is a personal, subjective, judgement post. And seems to imply that you have taken it upon yourself, to speak for this collective, and enlighten me of the groups opinion of me. 
So why are these same people pm'ing me with some wonderful supportive advice, suggestions etc?
interesting isn't it Nicole. 

That, is interesting


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lets all get through the name calling and feeling insulted.

In other words we need to grow up and realize we're all her to offer suggestions for training.

We all have different ways to approach this but telling others their methods are wrong or calling names does nothing more then fuel the fires.

Personalities can clash over simple things so offering advice by insults or names doesn't work! 

I still like to finish off all my posts with the age old saying of

"The words of a fool offend only another fool". 

It really works for EVERYONE to keep that in mind. :WINK:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, apparently they do Bob...

As I said, arrested development. Btw not that it needs to be said but I was merely implying that being dickish might be the cause for the lack of interaction he was seeking.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

shelle fenton said:


> interesting isn't it Nicole.


Ha ha, I guess. But only from the perspective that I directly addressed Rick in my response. Not you. 

Either way. I am glad we clear that misunderstanding up via PM. Have a good day. \\/


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Whilst it may of wandered off a little. I take from this thread. That using a bark collar, will amp the dog up, not bring the drive down. Much like a prong. So no go.

Where as, its implied, but not stated, that IF a e collar was used, it would work. Presumably something to do with the level of stim/aversion? who knows, its not stated. I dont actually have one to use, so a mute point.

And there appear to be several "working dog owners" who have shared this issue with their dogs also. And manage it, by keeping behind a 2nd fence.
<This is the management tool i will use.

As for verbal attacks. My temperament is well bred. I bounce back from correction immediately.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "And manage it, by keeping behind a 2nd fence."
.... not sure what you mean by this ???

i have worked with this issue from different perspectives
1. by working with a dog with me, on lead, with another dog behind a fence or barrier barking and carrying on
2. with a loose dog, both on and off lead, who is barking and spinning, inside a fence, reacting to a variety of distractions on the other side of the fence
...in both cases you are working with one dog you can control and another that you can't control, so it's not a piece of cake 

my caveat is that in my experience, barking at, near, or behind fences or barriers, is often not a case of aggression, so i don't deal with it as aggression

to go into it in more detail may not be worth discussing unless a person has the issue and really wants to try an incremental plan to work on their specific case since i feel it has to be tailored to the individual dog rather than a blanket set of rules. just listing a bunch of techniques and hoping one or two might stick is not a route worth discussing. for me anyway //LOL//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

our personal experiences shape our attitudes
here's one that affected mine

a dog in our neighborhood would go ballistic when anyone walked close. would run and slam into the fence and start biting it like it was trying to chew its way thru.
snarling, barking, yelping....a full range of vocals
....way beyond the typical bouncy friendly yapper

i always passed it off as a nutcase "ban-ken" (security dog kept by anti-social owners to keep people away from their property)

months later i was out late at night and saw the dog wandering around. i was with my dog.
it approached me after pacing around. came right up to me and my dog and was very friendly. he quickly scarfed up a few treats. i slipped a lead on it and took it back to the house. no problems with walking it on lead. too big to lift over the fence so i banged loudly and owner finally woke up and took the dog and thanked me for bringing it back.

a few days later i went by to see it since we had met and become buddies 
...bad assumption
same behavior.....lunged and tried to chew its way thru the fence 

a few more interesting details but that's the gist of it

maybe Cesar is right ... worry about the quiet ones //rotflmao//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

another anecdote
how to help two dogs....

when walking with your dog you approach a noisy fence fighter.
instead of speeding up, or making a snide remark at it to STFU, stop.
park with your dog. ignore the vocals coming from the other side of the fence. play with your dog
- ignore the owner when they come out and apologise, or pretend not to hear them and give them the high sign that life is good and their uncontrolled dog is cool and great looking 
when the dog lowers its volume, shuts up or backs off, look at it, say YES and toss a treat over the fence and walk on.
rinse and repeat a few times over the next few days or weeks

notice how the vocals decrease or disappear

more peace and quiet in the neighborhood and your own dog has become that much more aloof to the real world and people who train their dogs the WRONG way //LOL//
- win win


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

bark collars..

they make varieties of tips for ecollars/bark collars long short, multi tips, etc 
for a bunch of reasons, some are for getting through longer hair yes.

are bark collars legal where you are at? where are you located SHelle?

I personally have used bark collars with great success.TO STOP BARKING....if there are other issues the collar will not stop those.
COLLAR WILL BE ACTIVATED ONLY BY DOG WEARING IT


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When walking my dogs I completely ignore any barkers that we see on our walks and I expect my dogs to do the same.

I've always viewed fence fighting as being more about barrier aggression. I think that can explain the dog being much more friendly when outside it's fence. No barrier, no aggression!

Protection, possessive, real aggression? Hard to really say with the fence barking being the only visual cue from me on the street.

I don't think I'd be to happy seeing someone toss treats over my fence to reward them for being quiet or any other reason especially since my fence is 30+ ft from the fence.

IF I wanted to make friends with the dog I would absolutely discuss it with the owner first.

I also see other dogs walking on leash in the neighborhood that put on the same display and I know for a fact that most of these are basically social dogs because I've talked with many of the owners and met their dogs.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "I don't think I'd be to happy seeing someone toss treats over my fence to reward them for being quiet or any other reason especially since my fence is 30+ ft from the fence."

just to be clear ... i don't enter anyone's personal property when i'm out...even if i'm with my dog 

i can understand why you keep walking past a barking dog and ignore it. that's what most people do. you don't need to care about a dog that doesn't belong to you. but i hope you would also have an open mind and realise, that by doing that you are unintentionally reinforcing the barking dog by allowing it to "chase you off" so to speak. whether that is important to you or not is your personal preference and your right to do so.

all i was pointing out is an alternative approach to this type of interaction. when you pause, you are showing that dog that its barking has no effect on you, and that it is useless and counterproductive. if you have the time and patience to pause a bit, in most all cases the barking dog will relax ... and either stop barking, bark less, or turn down the volume
....and these are all GOOD things in my opinion 

i have done this in many situations and i have never had an owner come out and feel that i was bothering either them or their dog. i hope that is because of the attitude i show when i do it. they realise a sidewalk is public property, and in most cases are apologetic that they feel their barking dog is bothering me and my dog, and when i reassure them that is not the case, they react accordingly.

maybe things are different in your neck of the woods 

hope that is a clearer explanation of my previous post


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the other benefit of this approach is for your own dogs

it's easy to say what you 'expect' of your dogs, but again, in the real world, barking often stimulates barking.....any barking IS heard by your dogs. if they are perfect and never even look at or respond at all to other dogs barking, congrats !!

many dogs are fine if you keep walking; many will not be as non-reactive if you stop and they have to deal with it when more they are more stationary

it's still a good distraction training aid to be able to pause with your dog and do something with it while another dog is barking at it. just makes your dog that much better and that much more NON reactive ... which is a good thing

it's one reason why more formerly VERY reactive dog could care less if another dog is barking at it
but i also do it when i am out with a customer's dog, and they have all benefitted. 

good training aids are what you make of them

i used to be very set in my ways, but i have changed things over time and this is one that i have seen benefits from...it's not a normal approach, so that's why i posted it


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

rick smith said:


> another anecdote
> how to help two dogs....
> 
> when walking with your dog you approach a noisy fence fighter.
> ...


And this was the exact successful method, i desensitised him to the friggin jack russell terrier, who does this at the fence day in, day out. 'every video i have shot in my garden of my grandchildren, has the JRT yapping in it. Any how, i digress. This worked, on both dogs.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

I can 'manage the behaviour' by removing access to the fence line. By putting them behind a 2nd fence. This manages the behaviour for me. But does not solve it.


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