# Long distance out



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Looking for some ideas to fix an out. 

When I'm nearby the out is good but when the distance starts to increase it may take several commands before he will out. So I'm looking for ideas on how to fix it. I'd like to avoid putting an e-collar on him if I can. I don't trust that I can carve out of the problem without causing other issues with it. My fault for bad use of it in the past, it got in his head and caused other issues. 

Not completely sure what the cause is could be he's just not hearing me because he's so amped. I tend to have to really make it forceful when I'm closeby or I just don't get through. Maybe some insecurity he's not a super strong dog. Also not ruling out that maybe I'm doing something different and not realizing it. Not sure, just looking for some ideas from the internet experts. :smile:

Thinking tonight I might experiment and find out exactly at what distance does the issue start showing up.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

do you have a guard?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> do you have a guard?


Yup. He does an active guard rather than a silent.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

at what distance does your out fall apart? How did you teach it to begin with? Do you use the decoy to reward or punish the dog?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> at what distance does your out fall apart? How did you teach it to begin with? Do you use the decoy to reward or punish the dog?


The exact distance is unknown right now, hopefully I can find that out tonight. It was taught where he would get a reward bite on the decoy when he did it properly. Some corrections were added later once he "knew" what was being asked.


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## Justin Gannon (Nov 17, 2008)

What sport are you doing?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Justin Gannon said:


> What sport are you doing?


PSA, In the level 1's the decoy and the dog could potentially be a long way away when I'm told to out the dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Brett, if you throw a ball or tug for your dog and he grabs it at a distance and you told him to out as he had it in his mouth and running around, what would he do?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Brett, if you throw a ball or tug for your dog and he grabs it at a distance and you told him to out as he had it in his mouth and running around, what would he do?


hmm, never tried. I'm going to assume he wouldn't out because in that context he's sprinting back to me to play. One toy he has gets slippery so after a while its hard for me to play with him. I tell him to out and he'll drop it, but that's a distance that's not the issue on a decoy.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

prob a few issues at work but from what you write he has definitely been conditioned that out means out up close and outoutoutOUT means out from a distance....why repeat the command ? if there is no response find out why first b4 giving it again
...as you already know repeating commands takes you down a slippery slope, but sometimes we forget to be consistent and just get impatient and do it anyway

prob just going a bit too fast and adding too many things (besides distance) at once without realizing it. 
... which i realize is easy to say, but often still the root of the problem


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I'd go reteach the whole thing. The out's reward is a rebite. Start with a tug, leg sleeve, decoy, add distance.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

rick smith said:


> prob a few issues at work but from what you write he has definitely been conditioned that out means out up close and outoutoutOUT means out from a distance....why repeat the command ? if there is no response find out why first b4 giving it again
> ...as you already know repeating commands takes you down a slippery slope, but sometimes we forget to be consistent and just get impatient and do it anyway
> 
> prob just going a bit too fast and adding too many things (besides distance) at once without realizing it.
> ... which i realize is easy to say, but often still the root of the problem


I don't repeat commands should have been more clear. There's always a negative marker in there "no" before I go again, which 99 percent of the time he'll out that second time. What we had been doing is having someone on a long line with a prong collar if he didn't out he got corrected which rarely happens. Now that we've tried no one on a line he basically gives me the middle finger. [-X So he's either smart and figured out that when no one is holding a line he won't get corrected or like you say something else is at work. 

Just looking for some ideas, trying to avoid putting electric on him. Too many other things suffered before out of my ignorance.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Find the furthest distance he'll still out consistently and just build from there. To much distance to fast is what I'm thinking.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

distance is part of it for sure
but :
1. i don't think a dog can generalize that much
"i'll out at 8ft but not 15", etc
2. i don't think dogs are smart enuff to "give fingers" ,,, it's too easy to explain problems that way and too easy to then not pass go, and go straight to compulsion 

so ok..... i'd suggest adding a LOT more imaginative distractions and duration when still up close and making it bulletproof, BEFORE you add ANY distance, but it doesn't seem like you would have to start all over teaching the out , and you WON'T  .... because you already feel he knows the command and he's just flipping you off


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Do a quick reteach. Rewards at 5 yards <ball, rebite, whatever>
Deafness isn't the issue. How does the dog operate in basic OB?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Do a quick reteach. Rewards at 5 yards <ball, rebite, whatever>
> Deafness isn't the issue. How does the dog operate in basic OB?


We won the OB evaluation last month among all the dogs in our club if that helps. Not that I'm bragging or anything. :lol:

I think I am going to reteach / see where it falls apart. 5 yards -> out -> rebite, 7 yards -> out -> rebite, et al. That way I'm rewarding the out, but I can find the point (if there is one to be clearly defined) where things go down the toilet.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Find the furthest distance he'll still out consistently and just build from there. To much distance to fast is what I'm thinking.


Yup, and you can easily test and train that with a ball out in a field some where. If they get gross and slobbered, bring a couple extra 

Does he retrieve? Toss a ball and as he's returning give out command maybe followed by a down. Start close by, if he's doing well, throw further and do the out at a further distance. Comes in handy if he will pick it back up on command and bring it back to you. Will he out the ball when he's 10, 30, 50, 100, 200' away from you?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Yup, and you can easily test and train that with a ball out in a field some where. If they get gross and slobbered, bring a couple extra
> 
> Does he retrieve? Toss a ball and as he's returning give out command maybe followed by a down. Start close by, if he's doing well, throw further and do the out at a further distance. Comes in handy if he will pick it back up on command and bring it back to you. Will he out the ball when he's 10, 30, 50, 100, 200' away from you?


Haha, I don't mind the grossness. I have one of those Goughnut sticks, about the only thing he hasn't destroyed and if he does they will replace it for life. The thing just gets slippery and I can't hold onto it. ha!

I'm going to experiment with outing a toy at a distance too. It might be rough going at first as he's wanting to get back to me to restart the game. But therein may lie the problem he never ever outs away from me during play it may be carrying over to bitework.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

First, question, why not just decondition him to the e-collar? You've already said you use markers, collar, click, treat. Unless his problem with collars is really severe, shouldn't take too long and pretty soon he wants to wear the collar. Plus it gives you a tool back that you may want to use again later 
That and all the usual collar advice, don't just strap it on him and blast him for the out, then take it back off, etc.

Second, one thing I always tell handlers, cause you did allude to it in your first post, try to never yell at your dog up close. I'd go back and reteach it up close using a normal tone of voice. That way, when he's far away, and you do have to raise your voice just so he'll hear you, he's not hearing a little whisper of a command compared to what he's used to.

Hope that helps?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Derek Milliken said:


> First, question, why not just decondition him to the e-collar? You've already said you use markers, collar, click, treat. Unless his problem with collars is really severe, shouldn't take too long and pretty soon he wants to wear the collar. Plus it gives you a tool back that you may want to use again later
> That and all the usual collar advice, don't just strap it on him and blast him for the out, then take it back off, etc.
> 
> Second, one thing I always tell handlers, cause you did allude to it in your first post, try to never yell at your dog up close. I'd go back and reteach it up close using a normal tone of voice. That way, when he's far away, and you do have to raise your voice just so he'll hear you, he's not hearing a little whisper of a command compared to what he's used to.
> ...



Derek

I agree with you on using the e-collar. Low level continuous to make it uncomfortable and show the dog you can "reach out".
If you're lucky the dog doesn't associate the uncomfortable feeling with you and thinks it's his fault for not letting go.
Maybe not politically or purely positively correct but a lot more effective then prongs and long lines


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

How old is the dog?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

The problem with the e-collar was not that he wouldn't wear it he would. Just started slowly noticing that his bitework was sucking in all areas grips were bad, coming off the bite, etc. It just got in his head and messed him up. Again, my ignorance caused it. I'd rather not go down that road again if I can avoid it.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

To fix this problem I work on the recall. In PSA does the dog have to out and guard at distance?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Howard Knauf said:


> To fix this problem I work on the recall. In PSA does the dog have to out and guard at distance?


In the level 1's there is only one scenario where there is a mandatory out and guard. The other scenarios I have the option to pick him up out of a guard or recall. 

After the 1's it's mixed up, some guards, some recalls.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Which one is the mandatory out and guard? (I've been training them all out and guard so far)


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Brett Bowen said:


> In the level 1's there is only one scenario where there is a mandatory out and guard. The other scenarios I have the option to pick him up out of a guard or recall.
> 
> After the 1's it's mixed up, some guards, some recalls.


 OK. One of our guys had the same problem. I just did restrained recalls with a tug reward from the handler. We started close and added distance. The recall command was used initially, then the out/here command was used...then just the out command. The tug was replaced with the bite reward and only given once the dog came into position by the handler. Didn't take the dog long to learn it.

Being as we train our dogs to out on a fighting subject, the training slowly progressed to that end. All told, it took about 3 weeks or so and we were running about 20 drills a day on duty and during in service training. This same dog was involved in a particularly violent fight with a subject last month wherein myself and the handler were in the fight as well. Once I had the guy somewhat under control the out command was given and the dog outed perfectly.

It's boring work but it did the job.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Brett Bowen said:


> The problem with the e-collar was not that he wouldn't wear it he would. Just started slowly noticing that his bitework was sucking in all areas grips were bad, coming off the bite, etc. It just got in his head and messed him up. Again, my ignorance caused it. I'd rather not go down that road again if I can avoid it.


Brett,

I suspect the problem was too high a level and not the e-collar itself? Unfortunately like you say, once it gets in their heads it's hard to get out. The "problem" is probably fixable. Start with a good e-collar with a good range of continuous stim.
Start at the lowest level and close to the dog/decoy. All you want is a slight uncomfortable feeling that causes the dog to let go, then mark and immediate rebite.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Brett,
> 
> I suspect the problem was too high a level and not the e-collar itself? Unfortunately like you say, once it gets in their heads it's hard to get out. The "problem" is probably fixable. Start with a good e-collar with a good range of continuous stim.
> Start at the lowest level and close to the dog/decoy. All you want is a slight uncomfortable feeling that causes the dog to let go, then mark and immediate rebite.


Yup you nailed it. We got caught in a spiral of he'd tolerate a higher and higher level of a nick correction for whatever we were doing. Looking back the stim got so high that the stress was never completely worked out so it just continued to build. The straw that really broke him was I sent him on a decoy and he ignored the decoy and went straight towards the group of other club members at mach 2. So I had to hit continuous so that someone didn't get bit at the level of a nick he had been tolerating. It was the lesser of the two evils, but still, luckily only a second of continuous brought him right back to me. 

Maren, it's one of the pre-published "surprise" scenarios. I believe it's the with two decoys one shakes your hand and walks away and the other attacks from behind.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Brett Bowen said:


> We won the OB evaluation last month among all the dogs in our club if that helps. Not that I'm bragging or anything. :lol:
> 
> I think I am going to reteach / see where it falls apart. 5 yards -> out -> rebite, 7 yards -> out -> rebite, et al. That way I'm rewarding the out, but I can find the point (if there is one to be clearly defined) where things go down the toilet.


 Congrats on the win!!!
Sounds like the path I might take as you can start to read the stress location or other signs on the "out" command.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Brett I had a similar issue with my male Bouvier, the e-collar was part of the success. The better part was rewarding the out command with a fast rebite at first and then slowing down that reward through other activities. Knowing where or what distance the issue takes place in could help.

Not knowing the dog means arm chair help sometimes be a waste!! As others have also said RETRAIN, REWARD, and PRAISE without stress.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

possibly try the sleeve as well, some dogs have more success on sleeve over the suit.

possibly try to have dog close to decoy in guard, give bite, out guard...keeping dog close to decoy, and have yourself moving further away, and not sending the dog further away...and then change it up some.

I am with Howard mostly though recall, should help alot, even possibly have second decoy to reward that as well...

just tossing out ideas to try


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> I don't repeat commands should have been more clear. There's always a negative marker in there "no" before I go again, which 99 percent of the time he'll out that second time. What we had been doing is having someone on a long line with a prong collar if he didn't out he got corrected which rarely happens. Now that we've tried no one on a line he basically gives me the middle finger. [-X So he's either smart and figured out that when no one is holding a line he won't get corrected or like you say something else is at work.
> 
> Just looking for some ideas, trying to avoid putting electric on him. Too many other things suffered before out of my ignorance.


So then yes you are repeating your command. He's learned to out on the "no! out!" Rather than the first out. And he won't do it from a distance, so you're already sliding down that slope. Sounds like prong and long line are not ready to come off. Use it until you're ready to trial. Correct on the "out," not on the "no, out," which it sounds like what has been happening. Video and post, so we can get a better view on what you're trying to fix. Good luck.


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