# handler conflict during bitework



## adam banotai (Jun 29, 2008)

hopefully i can word this correctly. bare with me...

i have an excellent 12 month old male mal who i have a great bond with. ive had him since 8 weeks and am the only 1 to handle him. we have zero conflict in tracking or obediance. he is enthusiastic and happy in the work. he is also excellent in his bitework with very strong drives and hard grips. 

however, recently its been noticed that there is some conflict with me during the bitework. when given the bite command he hits hard and fast and has no conflict with the decoy. he stays calm and focused on the decoy, no growling during the bite, no shallow or piano biting. very good stuff. but when i come up he starts to try to look back at me and spins just a foot or two away from the side i am coming from. nothing crazy and it doesnt effect his grip but enough to indicate some conflict. later we capped him a little and then presented him the suit jacket the same way you would as in a B&H. with no command he lunged to bite then stopped himself, looked at me for a split second as if to confirm he was doing the right thing and then hit the bite well.

its been brought up that the problem is me being too hard on him and in a sense he thinks of me as the pain in the ass who ends the fun he's having biting. and that when his drive consumes him he acts appropriatly. but if he senses my presence too much hes afraid to do the wrong thing as too not disappoint me. and when i say too hard on him i do not mean physically as he doesnt even wear the prong much anymore. i just snap commands at him and verbally correct him if he's not correct. i was told i talk to him like he's one of my Marines.

before someone says hes a shitter and get a new dog hes not. he comes from excellent lines and has worked in front of enough experienced handlers and trainers for me to know the problem is not from him. its something i induced.

my question is how can i fix this and get rid of the conflict? sorry for the long post.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Assuming you are doing Sch, what is it that makes you come up to the dog on the bite ??

There is always some pressure from the helper, and there is pressure from the handler, so not knowing how you trained him, that would be my guess. You put him in the middle with these two pressures for no reason......at least none that you mentioned. 

What happens when you just go about Sch as it is done in the trial ???


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Do you go up and put him everytime? Maybe try slipping the sleeve/suit for awhile and let him carry it as long as he wants, so he can in a sense feel he is winning it and not having it taken away by you. Also do you take the ball or tug from your dog or did as a pup? I did this and got the same reaction you describe but I stopped and we fixed it.

Jeff "READ" PERSONAL PROTECTION under the OP's name Ding Dong.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Honestly, it sounds like you already know exactly what to do. Reread your own post. You say he is only 12 months and that you bark at him like a “marine” and don’t use the “prong much anymore”. Also you may be moving too fast. Just because he can, doesn’t mean you should. He is still very much a puppy and it sounds like you have created or exposed or exaggerated some handler sensitivity. 
No expert but this is going to take time and patience working on confidence and trust in you. You need to retrain his brain to not think of you as a “pain in the ass who takes the fun away”. I do think it IS part of the dog though and you may always have to be aware of this in the future. Id lay off the barking (at him) and the prong for sure. Practice just “speaking” to your dog when giving a command. Id also reward him with a bite right before you approach (before he turns) so he learns that you approaching gets him his reward and to not associate you with a negative. When you can get to a point just come up and stroke him calmly and back away again. Also remember that what happens outside of protection can runeth over into protection.
Im sure there will be others with better advice, that’s just mine.
t


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: we have zero conflict in tracking or obediance.

Ok, ding dong, then WTF is this statement about ??


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: we have zero conflict in tracking or obediance.
> 
> Ok, ding dong, then WTF is this statement about ??


 
He likes being frustraited and wasting time on stupid stuff? LOL Some people will just train anything they have available. I'd like to do some apprehension stuff, building searches maybe drug detection, if I had the trainer to help. You wont catch me doing those flat slow tracks though.:-&


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## adam banotai (Jun 29, 2008)

i dont do schutzhund. mainly because i dont like how patterned it is. i didnt realize how my post would come off that i am training for schutzhund. i train with a working dog group of people with different interests and with at a police k9 academy with a friend who runs it. 

i meant with the ob and tracking its much more obvious he trusts me then and doesnt have the conflict. i think thats because those 2 disclines i unintentionally trained with a much more rewarding style wear success/obience was rewarded with play. so he knows if he does the right thing he gets to goof off with dad.

the prong was used very very little and only in obedience. but i could tell it wasnt necessary as he reacted much better to the positive reenforcement.

yes i usually do come up to him after sending him on a bite to stroke him and either out him off or lift him off. perhaps staying back and letting him enjoy it before slipping it would help? and i know the first thing to do is not snap the commands but say them in a more calm voice. it just comes natural to me that to gain obediance and attention say something like i mean it.

and i agree with jeff that i put him in the middle of 2 pressures. i didnt mean to say there was zero pressure from the decoy. obviously there is. but its seems of the 2 the pressure from me is more overwhelming. 

thanks for all the insight so far.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Either way, do you have better advice, or different questions ??

Get your ass out and track. LOL


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Regardless of how the conflict has arisen, I think desensitizing and counter conditioning to your approach is a good idea. A few things you could try:

-Either when on the bite or doing a B&H have people (including yourself) get closer to the dog. Do not give commands, just approach and then leave. If you do this enough the dog should become desentitised to people approaching when on the bite (or when doing a B&H).

-Make your approach a positive thing. 1) When doing the B&H, after you have approached , get the decoy to give the dog a bite. 2) If on the bite already, after you have approached, get the decoy to fall on the gorund/slip the sleeve, so that the dog wins.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

adam banotai said:


> yes i usually do come up to him after sending him on a bite to stroke him and either out him off or lift him off.


Is this is what he anticipates every time he bites and you approach? I am also curious how the out was trained?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Wrong thread.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Work with the dog as a team. Stay calm. Get hands on with him in a calm manner. Use no major force on the out with him, use another motivator. Just for giggles...ground fight the decoy with your dog and defeat him together. It's not rocket science.

Howard


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## adam banotai (Jun 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Either way, do you have better advice, or different questions ??
> 
> Get your ass out and track. LOL





Howard Knauf said:


> Work with the dog as a team. Stay calm. Get hands on with him in a calm manner. Use no major force on the out with him, use another motivator. Just for giggles...ground fight the decoy with your dog and defeat him together. It's not rocket science.
> 
> Howard


i was just looking for more opinions. i got good advice already. i just thought more opinions from experienced people couldnt hurt. 

im glad its not rocket science for some of you. unfortunatly this is the first dog ive handled and im not quite the genius you are. just thought id ask for help.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

You are approaching the dog to either out him or take him off of the bite….so there really isn’t anything positive for the dog in your coming to him. “Here comes dad…crap, I gotta let go and the fun is over”. You might need to re-think how you are doing your bite training to make it more fun for him.

Also… how are you petting the dog? Sensual fingertip head to tail will soothe the dog… heavy petting or stroking will when combined with the “oh here he comes” vibe will cause stress and conflict. If the girls go crazy for your fingertip massages….your dog will like you better too!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Matthew,Ian, and Howard. Has great advise use this and the dog should be fine. Don't think it will happen tomorrow though. Time and reps.


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## adam banotai (Jun 29, 2008)

i got a little defensive with my last post. i appreciate the advice offered. and in all honesty the things howard matt and ian suggested were actually some of the very ideas we have begun to implement. glad to hear we are on the right track. calm and fun are the 2 big things i need to remember.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

No offense intended, Adam. Sometimes I forget that even the basic concepts in dog training is still news to some people. Hope all turns out OK. Let us know.

Howard


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

You guys are "preaching" real good! Some good stuff is coming from here!!!!!!!!!!! =D>


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I would stop outing him for a while. let the decoy come in and give bites to the dog so the dog can be near you and get accustom to your presence when he is biting. let the decoy slip the sleeve or jacket. let the dog bring the item to you . encourage him with you voice and petting to hold on. with your arm under his neck let him hold on until he drops it. I would also do a lot of drive work (teasing) so he gets so hyped up he doesn't want to let go


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I would stop outing him for a while. let the decoy come in and give bites to the dog so the dog can be near you and get accustom to your presence when he is biting. let the decoy slip the sleeve or jacket. let the dog bring the item to you . encourage him with you voice and petting to hold on. with your arm under his neck let him hold on until he drops it. I would also do a lot of drive work (teasing) so he gets so hyped up he doesn't want to let go


The above post is good advice You mentioned capping describe one of your reps in detail and is this something you have started recently.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Ivan helped us out with this when we had the same problem. We do Schutzhund so we were using blinds--you can implement this technique with anything though.

You need 3 people for this to work--all of them on the same page--practice this without a dog before you try it. Ivan rigged 2 blinds together so they looked like one blind but the helper could *disappear *through the V of the blind & then run away. I sent my dog into the blind to B&H with a long line on held by an assistant so my dog couldn't pursue the helper. I circled the blind & when my dog looked at me, the assistant held my dog tight & the helper quickly backed out of the blind, disappeared & ran away. This technique punishes the dog for looking away without any handler involvement. Believe me this works quickly.

Also, everyone else gave you great advice & you need to use it in conjunction with this tip. It really worked for us


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue, we have done this but just a little different. We have a blind made of wood. It has a door that the helper/decoy can escape through. The door has a spring on it so that it will close once the helper has gone. Then we do it all over again until it's right.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

When I'm commanding or correcting a dog strongly, I try to be sure that my praise when he is doing it right is double the intensity of the corrections. I think if you plan to be very strong in the corrections (verbal or physical), you need to then really step up your reward and praise. I say double because if I'm thinking being twice as positive and happy with the dog then at least it's more than the negative because I know I sometimes think I am being extremely positive with the praise, but if I watch on a video then I can see whether I really am compared to the demands and corrections put on the dog during the same training session.

I go up 3-4x as many times as well to the dog to encourage the dog compared to correcting the dog. I use this system so that I don't forget. Pretty soon it just becomes second nature to go up and encourage and say good boy and also to really praise when he's on track and did you proud of him.

Also, I try to think he's like a fighter that needs encouragement and try to stay in the mindset that the dog is working his heart out for the owner and wants to do it right so needs the support from you that he's doing it right. It's always easy to let the dog know when he's doing it wrong.


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