# Future of the Dobermann



## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

I was wondering what the experienced trainers thought on the current working qualities of the Dobermann, in the US or Europe.

I remember 30yrs ago as a nipper on our farm in Wales watching TV with this exotic breed with cropped ears (magnum) taking on all comers. Of course I went to the Library and read books on the ultimate guard dog, all very romantic, and a million miles away.

I have Rotts and finding anything with working qualities is a nightmare and just wondered is the Dobe in any better state. Few Police use it, none in the UK, and its very rare even for Security companies to use them. We do have a handful training in Schutzhund, but you could say that about collies.

Are they worth considering or is the 1970s image a myth?

Mark


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mostly a myth. There are some people that are trying to change it, but the few Dobes I remember working with during that time were a LOT sharper than anything that you see today.

THe y have a lot of problems with cardio.

I have one person that has a Dobe that is really nice, he is also a bit dangerous anymore. 

The biggest thing I remember from those times were the little bastages figured out the deal pretty quick.

I piss them off, and they bite the sleeve, but I can still piss them off.......so lets not bite the sleeve and just get Jeff. I lost a lot of t-shirts and some skin here and there. The few that I was working just thought it was fun to go over, or under the sleeve. Poor handling would have gotten me muckled:-D


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The biggest thing I remember from those times were the little bastages figured out the deal pretty quick.
> 
> I piss them off, and they bite the sleeve, but I can still piss them off.......so lets not bite the sleeve and just get Jeff... The few that I was working just thought it was fun to go over, or under the sleeve.


sooo, jeff, no one breeds jeff-eating dobes anymore? or you just don't want to advertise them for fear *someone* (not ME, but maybe someone else, don't know who) might get ahold of one and invite you to work it?  :-k :-k


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

there are lots of problems. I think there are good working dobermanns out there, but there aren't too many. Here are what I think are the big problems- and I can say all this, because I have dobermanns and always will :-\" 

health: Like Jeff said, cardio (or dilated cardiomyopathy) is a HUGE problem. Recent studies from the University of Guelph indicate that as much as 70% of male dobes (from show, work, or BYB lines) will develop some degree of cardio at some point in their lives. Sudden death is not uncommon. Holter monitor testing can be useful and will help detect abnormalities earlier, but still isn't foolproof. This is in addition to the other stuff - hypothyroidism, Wobbler's, von Willebrands (although there is a genetic test for this, so theoretically, there's no reason to ever have another vWD affected dog born) that's common to dobermanns. There's lots of research being done on the DCM front, and I hope that there will be a solution soon. As it is, I rotate doing holters and echocardiograms every year.

show vs. work - Just like the GSD, there are too many people out there interested in what the dog looks like more than what it works like. 

Schutzhund - I'm not slamming schH, really I'm not. But the reason for the working abilities of the mal or dutchie or whatever is that they are used for actual utility and for other sports, whether it be KNPV, ringsport, or NVBK. I have seen first hand that a really great schH dog isn't NECESSARILY a really great sport dog for other venues. You just don't see a lot of dobes out there doing well in anything other than schH. That doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't do well in other things, but people don't participate in other things. You can count the number of dobes that have made it to Ring III on two hands - and that's in France. Here in America, there hasn't been a dobe yet that has made it past FR I, though there have been several that could have in different circumstances. 

Simply put, though, if someone loves Dobermanns, they're going to try to find a dobermann and compete as well as they can with it. If someone really loves a sport and wants to compete at the highest levels of that sport, they're going to go buy a mal or a dutchie.

Price - a working Dobermann costs a lot. You can generally buy three mali pups from great lines for the price of one dobie pup. Granted, you have to factor in the costs of all that health testing, but still. Why pay three times more for a dobermann, when the very best dobe out there won't have as much working ability as the average malinois? Plus, your chances of getting a good mal are going to be much higher. 

Pedigree - the working Dobermann community that does exist is very kennel blind. Too many people aren't willing to 'think outside the box', though it seems to me that it ain't been working really well so far - time to try something new. ](*,)


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

a good example - there are lots of people that won't breed to Vadim's Kaz, or his sire, Agir Miss Jakoso (Butch and Agir have probably done more in the schutzhund world than any other American dobe team ever, and Vadim and Kaz have shown up a lot of people that said dobes couldn't do well in ring and PSA) because the pedigree is iffy, or the dog has a 'bad head'. Whereas there are dogs that have been Bingo linebred for ten generations and still aren't half the dogs that Agir and Kaz are that are being used for breeding incessantly. 

Agir is getting old (and still healthy as a horse!) and I bet there's gonna be a lot of people regretting how limited of an influence he's had on the dobe genepool ten years from now.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

> Price - a working Dobermann costs a lot. You can generally buy three mali pups from great lines for the price of one dobie pup. Granted, you have to factor in the costs of all that health testing, but still. Why pay three times more for a dobermann, when the very best dobe out there won't have as much working ability as the average malinois? Plus, your chances of getting a good mal are going to be much higher.


I think this is a large part of the problem. I'd love to get another Dobe one of these days. But the reality is, I may get lucky with my first pup but I'd probably have to go through a couple of pups to really find what I wanted (or lower my standards for it). Considering the price tag on a Dobe pup, that's just not going to happen. And a lot of Dobe breeders are quite happy with that, they don't want the dogs to be purchased with the emphasis being on the work, but instead with the emphasis being on "forever home" and if the dog also works, great.



Amber Scott said:


> a good example - there are lots of people that won't breed to Vadim's Kaz, or his sire, Agir Miss Jakoso


What is the stud fee though on the other dogs. I've talked to a few people who inquired about using Agir for breeding, and got the definite impression Butch isn't that interested in having him bred, his stud fee is outrageous (IMO). Add to that the cost of shipping the female for breeding, and you have thousands into the breeding before you even know if your female is pregnant. 

IMO one of the things that has saved the Malinois from becoming the Dobe, Rott and even GSD to an extent is that they have for the most part remained "the poor mans working dog". People don't get 2000+ for a pup. There are some breeders charging 1000+, but you can still find pups for less than that also. They are reasonably healthy, and the work is still used to test the dogs and determine if they are breed worthy. You don't find people selling Malinois for 30-50,000 because it won some big conformation show, and pups from that dog for 2500+


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My friend Dorothy has a Dobermann named Sandor and he is originally from Holland. He is an Asshole, and I think it would be interesting to see what he can produce. 

He has no titles, and might MIGHT get a BH. His owner is in her mid 70's and just the nicest person. I have been trying to get over to see one of his pups to see what it was that he past on. So far the pups are spectacularly gorgeous........so I am told. I want to see if they have the rest of him.

His first bite ever was on a Jambierre that is made from Jute carpet, and he was pinching the decoy real well through that. NOT EASY. and he is the only dog that has done that so far. He also bites really deep, and didn't care that we were wacking him with the stick a little bit. Pretty good for the first time.

I think anyone here that would work this dog would like him a lot. Dorothy sent him off to be trained and I guess he has lit that guy up a couple times. I do not know the guy, but I do know the dog and he isn't gonna deal with you very well if you are being aggro to him. I look for this in a stud dog.

I also agree with you about not breeding to different dogs. Vadims dog worked real well when I saw him, and this was after he got muckled and had to be carried off the field. 

The true death of the Dobermann breed is the show people. THis is a breed that should be sharp, and should tend to bite first and worry about you later. The show people have made this breed into a stuffed toy, and only by breeding to assholes are they gonna save the breed. They should not use Sch, as I would prefer a Dobe to shake the sleeve, and NEVER be calm on the bite. I am not saying chewy, but shake a bunch.

So no, I do not think there is enough to save the breed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: People don't get 2000+ for a pup.

IT is coming though. Breeders are inching up those prices, ever so slowly. Sad thing is they cannot claim that they have better dogs than others YET. Luckily, there are a lot of people that still believe that Mals should stay cheap. Problem is finding them before all the pups are gone. And no, I am not refering to Kadi.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I know Vadim always offers puppies from his litters free to well-known and very experienced trainers. He hasn't gotten too many takers yet, I don't think. 

At whatever point, I'm going to do something similar... offer 25% off to people that have previously titled in SchH, 50% to those that have personally titled a dog in ringsports of any kind. 

P.S. Kadi... next year or so, after Bane's gotten her Brevet and working on (hopefully!) her FR 1, I'm going to be attempting a breeding with Son of O Brien la Villa de Channes, FR 2, MR 3, Campagne 1. Son's the first and only dobe to achieve MR 3 so far, and he's not produced any offspring in the US yet. The owner, Bruno, says that he has no problem breeding if we fly there, but can't get semen preserved at this time - so we're going to try it!

Jeff, there are some breeders in the US breeding very sharp dobermanns right now. I mean like liability sharp. However, I don't think this is what the general sport population is looking for. It's more than I can handle for sure. Esp. when I go to get the dog out of her crate and everyone kinda backs away


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dobe breeders are gonna have to go to extremes if they want to get anything accomplished, but with the US obsession with dead dog on carpet type temperaments, ESPECIALLY the vast majority of Dobe people, we can only hope that something is done in at least a small segment of the population.

I look at cardio as God's way of telling them they screwed up a mans lifes work.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Obession with "dead dog on carpet type temperaments..." Sad but true


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Amber Scott said:


> health: Like Jeff said, cardio (or dilated cardiomyopathy) is a HUGE problem.
> 
> Schutzhund - I'm not slamming schH, really I'm not. But the reason for the working abilities of the mal or dutchie or whatever is that they are used for actual utility and for other sports, whether it be KNPV, ringsport, or NVBK.


amber agreeing with jeff????? quick, jeff, say dobes suck before i lose all faith in you!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck
Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck
Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck
Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck
Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck Dobes Suck


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff, you say Dobes should be extremely sharp (if I read that right)... sharp generally indicates weak nerves, and weak nerves would indicate biting out of fear... would that be the case or are dobes really that different? I met a guy from K9 ProSports once who had a dobe, and he was telling me that dobes thrive on "defensive work" and the more you beat up on them the more they get into it. I am wondering if they would be easier to run if they are this sharp and defensive or if there is some other reason behind why the Dobe works this way.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

ugh. here we go with the terminology thing. i think sharp can mean weak nerves, but not always. i think sharp can also just be low thresholds, i.e. the amount of stimulus needed to elicit a prey response or a defensive response, or a "fight" response is very low. that doesn't mean that the dog also has weak nerves. i don't think the two are mutually inclusive.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sharp should not indicate weak nerves just a willingness to bite. I think that in promoting weak trash in advertisements or to somehow make the dog seem better anyway possible, somehow, sharp started to include the better end of weak nerved dogs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dotti with Tim and Jeff. Sharp with strong nerves makes for one heck of a dog. Sharp with weak nerves is the recipe for a fear biter.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Isnt that fight drive?

ahahahahaha. Sorry, couldnt resist


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

=d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d>


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Isnt that fight drive?
> 
> ahahahahaha. Sorry, couldnt resist


As a believer in "fight drive", no it wouldn't be. I do concur with Tim on his definition of "sharp".

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Taking this one step further, if a dog is dominant, without the modifier, like insecure or whatever, but just dominant, how do you think, or do you think that thresholds affect this???

Could a dog be sharp, and have say normal thresholds??? I am trying to see if the dogs being "sharp" could come from dominence of a "pack drive" or "character" nature. 

I have always believed that it was a specific nerve level with regards to the fact that they just bite first. I was bored the other day, and started to consider some other options. With my original definition appying to a dog, I did not see this dog passing this trait, and saw some weak nerves in the offspring.

Just trying to see my world a bit differently. (maybe more clearly.)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Could a dog be sharp, and have say normal thresholds???


FWIW, i have never thought of a "sharp" dog as being one with "normal" thresholds. first (back to definitions...i KNOW) one has to at least loosely define normal.

it's easier to define "sharp". in my view "sharp" means, as it does to a LOT more knowledgable (sp?) ppl than me, a response that is a result of (relatively) minimal stimulus, ie, my old dog would "go off" at ANY vehicle pulling in the driveway, whereas my GSD will "go off" at any vehicle he DOES NOT RECOGNIZE pulling in the drive. 

however, he WILL go off at ANYONE who knocks on the door. so i would say my old dog was "sharper" than my GSD.

my dobe (sorry) only goes off when he feels like it, but it's kinda worth the wait, cause he sort of howls/bays and sounds really scary. he's just not consistent about it.... and this is a dog who really is a nervy SOB as far as corrections/movement-of-ppl goes. so i think of him as more submissive-sharp, ie my nerve-bag.

does any of this work for any of you guys?? :???:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i agree with some of that ann. to call a dog "sharp", i believe means the dog has low thresholdS, as in plural. i would not call a dog sharp because of one drive or characteristic, which in your case is territorial aggression. we have all seen dogs that are monsters in their house or kennel, but when brought out, they are sharp as a cue ball. so to look at your above scenario, i wouldn't call any of those dogs "sharp" without seeing the rest of their behaviors. 

inconsistent "sharpness" like you describe with your dobe, would indicate nerve problems to me. 

jeff's question with regard to dominance and "sharpness" is an intriguing one and one i'm still thinking about. i'm hesitant to come right out with an opinion as i haven't worked with many dogs that have a high degree of social dominance. those dogs aren't all that common from what i've seen. i've only briefly worked with one such dog (maybe my definition of it is more strict than others). on the surface, a dominant dog wants to dominate anyone in their environment, but domination doesn't always require fighting. once again, i guess it comes down to definitions. some would say that a dog who wants to be aggressive toward anyone and anything has nerve issues. some might just call that a dominant dog. can a dominant dog have an on/off switch? too many different definitions out there to properly answer this question. i would love to see someone take a shot at it though...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> jeff's question with regard to dominance and "sharpness" is an intriguing one and one i'm still thinking about. i'm hesitant to come right out with an opinion as i haven't worked with many dogs that have a high degree of social dominance. those dogs aren't all that common from what i've seen. i've only briefly worked with one such dog (maybe my definition of it is more strict than others). on the surface, a dominant dog wants to dominate anyone in their environment, but domination doesn't always require fighting. once again, i guess it comes down to definitions. some would say that a dog who wants to be aggressive toward anyone and anything has nerve issues. some might just call that a dominant dog. can a dominant dog have an on/off switch? too many different definitions out there to properly answer this question. i would love to see someone take a shot at it though...


If the definition of a sharp dog is bite first and ask questions later, Mac was sharp when I got him. But IMO this was an environmental thing, not a temperament thing. Which brings into the play the question of "how do you know environment vs genetics in an adult dog" LOL He's a dominant dog, and because of the work he was doing in France (crowd control in the subways) he'd bite you as soon as look at you. But not out of defense or fear, just because he was dominant and it was fun to bite people. Now that I've had him awhile I've toned that down, he's still a dominant dog, who likes to greet people with a body slam, and still thinks it's fun to mess with them a little, but he doesn't try to randomly bite people anymore, and I wouldn't call him sharp anymore either.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

tim--the dobe IS a *somewhat* calmed down nerve-bag  i agree, my scenario was probably over-simplified, but i LIKE simple!!

and i agree-jeff asks a really interesting question, then kadi comes along with an interesting example, and i personally am looking forward to more replies to jeff's question. this should be a good discussion (i hope), and a good theoretical learning experience.

could sharpness be related to dominance in that a more dominant dog would need some degree of sharpness (more rather than less) to BE dominant (not just "want to be")?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Please note, I am not ruling out that it is a nerve thing, just ADDING this.

Kadi asked about environment vs genetics.........well you need both to create a temperment, but the dog has to have something genetic that will override the environmental stuff.

Sandro says that Mac is an asshole. =D> =D> =D> =D> God I love dogs like that.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... but the dog has to have something genetic that will override the environmental stuff.


the old "Nature vs Nurture" argument; but i'm sure you're exactly right jeff, especially when you consider just how long dogs have been domesticated, therefore bred to be human-submissive.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Very interesting question. My own adult GSD has a nice defence when pressured. Sharp? Not at all with family but very fast to react in the yard,car, house. He's not at all dominant with the family but can be a bit pushy geting what he wants with people outside the family.
I've seen dominant dogs that weren't very sharp to react with aggression. Other "fear biter" types rarely show anything but submissive fear. 
My own opinion is that sharp and dominance don't have to be inclusive of one another.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I've seen dominant dogs that weren't very sharp to react with aggression

Ok, how specifically. I am talking about a dog that just nails you. Bam, you got some holes in you, and the dog is gonna fight you till someone breaks.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A dog that "just nails you" isn't necessarily doing it out of aggression. Regardless of the reason for the bite, a dog that "is gonna fight till someone breaks", isn't necessarily out of dominance.
There are so many different scenarios and combination of dominance and aggression. 
A truely dominant dog, IMO, doesn't have to resort to agression for control.
A truely aggressive dog doesn't have to be dominant. 
I'm not sure I really know how to answer this. Are we playing the turd and the punch bowl here? :lol: :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No. I am not.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> A dog that "just nails you" isn't necessarily doing it out of aggression. Regardless of the reason for the bite, a dog that "is gonna fight till someone breaks", isn't necessarily out of dominance.
> There are so many different scenarios and combination of dominance and aggression.
> A truely dominant dog, IMO, doesn't have to resort to agression for control.
> A truely aggressive dog doesn't have to be dominant.
> I'm not sure I really know how to answer this. Are we playing the turd and the punch bowl here? :lol: :wink:


i agree with everything here bob. i also alluded to domination not requiring fighting. i also believe that a dominant dog, doesn't necessarily go and bite a guy in a suit because he wants to dominate him. i think the trigger for such an encounter, may be prey for instance. prey may start the fight, but once the fight is on, it's the dog's need for dominance that continues and sustains the fight in that case. i dunno. this stuff seems so abstract when trying to put it in words. that's why it's such a good and tough question. i'm sure jeff asked it on accident. =P~


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> i agree with everything here bob. i also alluded to domination not requiring fighting. i also believe that a dominant dog, doesn't necessarily go and bite a guy in a suit because he wants to dominate him. i think the trigger for such an encounter, may be prey for instance. prey may start the fight, but once the fight is on, it's the dog's need for dominance that continues and sustains the fight in that case. i dunno. this stuff seems so abstract when trying to put it in words. that's why it's such a good and tough question. i'm sure jeff asked it on accident. =P~


"Abstract"! One of those ten dollar words that make sense when you hear someone say it! :lol:
Definately a thought provoking question. Jeff, are you on something?  :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am ficking brilliant, of course I am on to something. All my predecesors were geeky non dog science people that probably at one time or the other wore bras on their heads and tried to recreate the computer that could make a chick.

I have never been comfortable with the "accepted" answers, and the incredibly varying definitions that go along with them.


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

I really hate what has happened to the dobermans. That was my first dog. My father use to do schutzhund back in the late 70's and early 80's. He gave me one of his males named Salten that he titled to Schutzhund I. I loved that dog. Looking back on him, I would have LOVED to have him today. He was a very serious no nonsense dog. I'll never forget the day my auntie was screwing with him through our back sliding glass door, Salten ran through the glass door to get to her. She managed to get past the living room and slam the living room door, he was cut up pretty good, and just was doing very aggressive bark and hold on the door, schutzhund style with the pouncing feet and I can recall him every now and then favoring the bottoms of his feet because of the apparent glass that was in his pads. In the same token, he was very good with me and was level headed, just always ready to get it on.

When I was a kid I said I would never own a dog but a dobermann, I wish I could have that same enthusiasm.
Vadim, offered me a free Dobermann puppy and I felt I had to very graciously and respectively decline his generous offer, and it's a damn shame because I really feel like I would be wasting time shipping money and kennel space, which is scarce for me. I may very well be wrong, but I'm just much more content with putting a mal in that kennel space than feel like I'm taking it up for an experiment.


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