# laying down on B&H



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

We just started this exercise a week ago, he bark but doesn't jump up like the other dogs. We've been working in the open, on the backside of the blind and along a fence where the helper moves sideways. 

any tips on getting 15mo rott to get up more?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

DECOY. That's his job to keep the dog focused on him to the point where the dog looses if he does that. The idea is for the decoy to hissss at him or make faces anything that will make the dog be ready for the bite. Keep the H & B short at first then add more time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What is the problem then ? ? ? Is he attentive to the decoy?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with Jerry, it's the decoys job. It's all about timing. They have to reward the dog when he's upright in the bark/hold, not when he's laying down. At the beginning stages many dogs will offer a lot of behaviors, trying to figure out what gets the reward. If the helper is only rewarding for the barking, they may be inadvertently teaching the dog laying down is how they get the reward. If they are only rewarding for being upright, then they may be teaching the dog not to bark. The helper has to elicit the right behavior, and reward it at the right time. If you can't get the right behavior, drag the dog away, or just have the decoy step away if out in the open, frustrate him, and try again.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

it's only been 3-4 sessions so maybe he just hasn't learned it yet. He barks well, bites well but lays down like a sphinx when doing it. I know the helper only gives him the bite when he gets the dog up. The helpers are good... I'm just looking for info for myself so I have stuff to think about when I'm not at the club.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If the dog is showing strong attention on the decoy there are no rules that say the dog must be jumping, or even sitting in front of the decoy. 
I do agree that the decoy should be able to correct this if you so choose.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

yeah, I know there are no rules that say he has to jump. 

I just don't like that he lays down. This is for schH and I want the image of power and presence. The helper says some dogs just lay down. I want him to be jumping in the helper's face but alas he's a rottie and not a mal or gsd. 

Maybe he'll get up after a few more session. Am I correct in thinking I don't want to force him to sit and bark? I've seen others do this and the H&B always looks contrived to me.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> We just started this exercise a week ago, he bark but doesn't jump up like the other dogs. We've been working in the open, on the backside of the blind and along a fence where the helper moves sideways.
> 
> any tips on getting 15mo rott to get up more?


Chris are you doing Schutzhund? Some dogs aren't big barkers. Like Jerry said, it is the decoy. If the dog doesn't know how to play the game, the decoy is the one with knowledge. Again, what are you wanting to do, the B & H for sport or PP?


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Chris,

My Rottweiler bitch did this at first when we first started work on the B&H. Sometimes it takes a bit of work to get a Rottweiler barking, so our helper said to not worry about it to start with.

Once the dog was barking more consistently the helper only rewarded as the dog got higher.

I would give it more sessions so that the dog understands what is required and starts to build confidence.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Howard, yes I'm doing schutzhund now and then some civil if/after he get's his schH3. He's mostly BH ready now - mostly meaning he will light up at another dog if staked out but that depends how the other dog looks at him. 

We figured out the issue last night. He has no problems barking, no problems biting but just like with others dogs they stop barking when they get too close to the helper my dog lays down. So it seems to be a pressure issue. If the helper stand about 4ft away the dog will stay up. So now we're just going to working on moving in closer.

I don't want a sleeve dog and we keep the focus on the man. He's got drive through the roof for a rottie and he's a bit edgy so we've got things we can work with. My plan is to trial him in Nov - BH on friday and schH1 on saturday. I might do a BH sooner if I find a trial close enough.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris I can FIX this problem in one easy fix!!!
Just sell this piece of junk to me for, oh let's say $25.00.
There, problem fixed, see...Cool!!!#-o 

Did you teach him to down in front of the decoy or was that self taught? We have Rotties here with similar deals. Think about it Chris, a nice crisp $25.00 cash and you ship it!!!!!!!!!!


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## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

Chris,

Personally, I don't think its a problem...and there is the possiblity that you'll create other problems trying to 'fix' this one.

If you want the dog up, then like Kadi said, reward the dog for barking while he's up. Have the decoy sit on the ground or in a chair or on some other object to lower him down and allow the dog to get close & even encourage him to put his front feet on the helper. This will get the idea across to the dog that he can feel strong with the helper, but in a trial, he could loose points for having his feet on the helper. I think this is crap, but those are the rules. 

If my dog naturally put his feet on the helper, I'd eat those points b/c I want my dog to feels strong andf powerful against the helper & I would want to try a 'fix' that and end up creating other issues.

If I had a dog that needed help staying closer and feeling stronger, I'd encourage the pushiness.

I've seen some ring dogs that are hammers, guard silently in a down, basically b/c that's what the dog did naturally and there's nothing in the rules to say they cannot & the handler didn't want to mess with it.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Chris I can FIX this problem in one easy fix!!!
> Just sell this piece of junk to me for, oh let's say $25.00.
> There, problem fixed, see...Cool!!!#-o
> 
> Did you teach him to down in front of the decoy or was that self taught? We have Rotties here with similar deals. Think about it Chris, a nice crisp $25.00 cash and you ship it!!!!!!!!!!


 
It's tempting but he likes to eat sh!t so you'd have to throw in more because he's pretty good abaout picking up after himself if I'm not watching.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I agree, that's the helpers job..sounds like the dog doesn't understand what's expected yet, what earns him the bite-plus he's new to this, young dog....hopefully with a few more sessions, the lightbulb will go on.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Chris you almost have to have a blind that has an rear door for the helper to back out of. Hold him on a long line and stop him just before he gets to the helper. If he lays down the helper can bail out the back, re-stimulate him coming back around to the front and then move back into the blind. Once the dog sees that he loses if he lays down then he should stay up and bark to get the bite. Like Jerry said keep the sessions short at first then make the longer. The Helper should continue to crack the whip and make some good motion to keep the dog intersted. It is not your job as the handler to do this it is your Helpers job.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

he worked much better this afternoon. It's a pressure thing and I most likely screwed him up since he was a pup. 

I have a pug at home and he and my rottie fight. We all know that's not a fair fight but the pug is 10yrs old and belongs to my wife. If he gets hurt then I would expect my wife to impale the rottie with the closest large kitchen knife. Anyway, the rottie started in on the pug within the first three days of his existence at my house when I brought him home at 8wks. The way I would correct him was to show frontal dominance while I made him lay down. I wouldn't say anything but I would stand over him and that was enough. That mistake seems to be showing now. Maybe I'm wrong about that too.

A few people are implying the dog is uninterested, that is not the case at all. He's supremely focused on the helper and waits for the bite. He could get titled this way but it's not the picture I want.

Anyway, this afternoon we had a couple of short sessions working around and toward the blind. The dog barks well and bites hard. We bumped the dog at increasingly closer distances to the helper to see when he lays down. Within 2-3 feet is the zone where he begins to lay down. Keep in mind he's still barking his head off and will still bite hard through the whip or stick. Today after we found the point where he lays down, we didn't let him lay down again, he always got the bite before it could happen. Now we're going to work on closing that distance.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I have a pug at home and he and my rottie fight. We all know that's not a fair fight but the pug is 10yrs old and belongs to my wife. If he gets hurt then I would expect my wife to impale the rottie with the closest large kitchen knife.


  That is one bad A$$ pug!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Well.........what if the Rottie gets hurt? :-k


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> It's tempting but he likes to eat sh!t so you'd have to throw in more because he's pretty good abaout picking up after himself if I'm not watching.


GREAT! It will fit into the BC pack, yard techs....;-)


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

We have a pug too, and he's a tough little guy. He lets our Dane have it all the time, and she's 34" tall and 110lbs, but that doesn't matter to him, he dives at her and she'll run. His favorite buddy is our Shepherd, and he'll instigate play with him all the time. I guess he finally figured out that every new pup we bring in is going to be bigger than him from day 1, so he just rolls with it. 

Here he is hanging with the GSD in a game of tug. The GSD was about 5 months old here and the pug was about 3.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Nice.........I love those bad a$$ little dogs. My younger brother thinks he's like that. He's an ex- jockey, 110 pounds soaking wet. He jumped on a LSU football player when he was at Delta Downs in La. In case you are woundering, the football player won.

My brother told me that he had been in 100 fights. He lost 99 and tied one. Said he wasn't afraid of nobody.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I used to play music with a coked out "tough guy". He was sober most of the time but when he wasn't he'd pick fights. I hated it. There was a time in Minneapolis this guy starts jawing with a dude twice his size. Of course he's trying to fight and the big guy says "Don't. It would be the biggest mistake of your life" That's all that was needed to be said to set this guy off. The was a push and another push and a swing that was blocked. The big fella said "STOP NOW" there was another swing that was blocked and then the big dude fought back. In an instant my former music friend was wrapped up and plowed shoulder first into the ground. The big guy then turned and went back to the bar - he was Brock Lesner.

My former music bud says he isn't afraid of anyone but I know he's


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Chris

Where are you during this process? Beside the dog, behind the dog? Are you in control of the line, dog on a back-tie? Are you sending the dog in straight or around from behind the blind?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

He's on a harness and long line where I am about 10ft behind the dog - I control him but not very much. I hold the line to bump him if I need to, though lately he's understanding that he can't power straight in for the bite.

We're sending the dog in straight for now but not alway "into" the blind. We've been working around the sides and away from the hole. We also work with the helper out in the open, against a fence, cars and trees.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Do you get the same behavior when the helper is out of the blind? If not then you could try starting with the blind away from the fence a good distance. Let the dog come straight into the front of the helper with you next to the dog on a line so you can control the distance and behavior. Have the helper slowly back into the blind with the dog upright, in front and barking. The idea is for the barking to move the helper back (makes the dog feel more powerful) and also keep the dog in a forward motion so he can not lie down. So, bark helper moves back, bark helper moves back, bark and stays upright, bite. Take a few sessions to have the helper gradually work their way into the blind in this manner. If you know the distance where the dog is starting the down behavior make sure the dog gets a bite _before_ it happens.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

It doesn't seem to be an issue with the blind. He's been working around it since he was 6mo old. The problems seems to be with him being close to the helper that if fully frontal. This is most likely my fault because when I corrected him as a puppy for pug hunting I would stand in front of him and make him lay down. Maybe it's a nerve issue too... he's young and on the edgy side.

He barks and bites well even laying down. We've figured out that giving him some distance between the he and the helper keeps him up. On monday that distance was 6-8ft away and by yesterday we got him down to three 3ft apart where he will bark incessantly. We even had one short session of four barks at the proper distance and the help caught just before he went to lay down. We think in a few more sessions he'll get it. One of helpers is J. Laubmeier - he's one of the best.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

UPDATE:

we had a very nice session with Nathaniel Roque over the weekend. He was getting him up by holding the sleeve up and over his head. The dog would get up for three or four barks and then we'd give him a bite.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I would rather see a dog pressing the decoy with intensity rather than all that leaping all over the place you see in some dogs.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't care how the dog does it just as long as he shows aggressive intent. BTW- We weren't trying to make my dog jump, we were trying to keep him from lying down.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

update:

Dog is up and now running into the blind freely without having to be on lead. 
Still no 30 sec barks - just 4-5 good barks and bite or I fuss him out. We're build from this point.


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