# SchH Bark and Hold Discussion



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Do you train this in Prey or Defense and why?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Moving to SchH forum.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Do you train this in Prey or Defense and why?


Schutzhund was started as means to exhibit the different qualities of German Shepherds for breeding and selecting dogs for purposes needed.
Short examples tracking if a dog can track Schutzhund style it damn sure should be able to track any desired.
Obedience was supposed exhibit train ability and relationship between dogs and handlers there handlers.
The blind search was supposed exhibit the guide ability of the dog the H&B guard was to exhibit courage, aggression and discipline holding the hiding man with a strong meaning bark. Not fleeing man=prey. Defence would be countering a attack no attack in the blind.
I like to try and exhibit my dogs the bast I can the the way Schutzhund is now in lite of the way it was originally meant to be.
I'm off the the ice house for the weekend this should be a good discussion


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> The blind search was supposed exhibit the guide ability of the dog the H&B guard was to exhibit courage, aggression and discipline holding the hiding man with a strong meaning bark. Not fleeing man=prey. Defence



I posed this question because almost every dog I see in the blind is in Prey. It looks impressive but the dog is doing nothing but barking for a ball and might as well be a frisbee dog.

The way I see it, the dog is in Prey coming to the blind but he better be in defense when he gets there.

There was one guy who came out and claimed that he had a "real" dog and how bad ass it was. One of the guys called the dog a pussy and offended the handler. So we had him send the dog on a guy with no sleeve. The dog fell apart. Then we hung a sleeve from the top of the blind and guess what? A perfect bark and hold. 

Never saw that guy and his "bad ass" dog again.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I like to see the dog show power, pushiness and aggression in the blind guarding. Strong serious barking, looking the helper in the eye, centered on the helper not guarding the sleeve or looking at the sleeve. The rest of the protection test (for Schutzhund) should test prey AND defense/aggression - the dog should have good balance between the two. Without enough prey, the grips will be crap - without good enough defense, the guarding will be crap.

molly


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

what do you think of this dog Molly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WdzmJ6t-QA


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I see the B & H as nothing but a prey game. Where's the defense or pressure? Ain't none!!! Even when you go to the escape...not mch defense. Blind searches are nothing more than a form of hunt drive. IMO


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

My opinion- I believe a good helper can put the dog in either Prey or Defense in the B + H, depending on what is needed at that particular time, for that particular dog.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I see the B & H as nothing but a prey game. Where's the defense or pressure? Ain't none!!! Even when you go to the escape...not mch defense. Blind searches are nothing more than a form of hunt drive. IMO



It shouldn't be. I understand it's a sport, but even so, I think the judges should knock off a few points for dogs that are in Prey during the B&H.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> It shouldn't be. I understand it's a sport, but even so, I think the judges should knock off a few points for dogs that are in Prey during the B&H.


 Most judges in schutzhund probably wouldn't know the difference between prey/defense if they saw it


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I think most all judges would know the difference. However, there are a lot of dogs that "_appear_" on trial day to be in defense.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

What is the difference (for the spectator) of a dog mad out of prey frustration barking one with a defensive bark and one with a high rank "if you move I'll kick your butt" bark in the B&H, when all 3 dogs have received the best training for their type?

happy training

Max


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> What is the difference (for the spectator) of a dog mad out of prey frustration barking one with a defensive bark and one with a high rank "if you move I'll kick your butt" bark in the B&H, when all 3 dogs have received the best training for their type?
> 
> happy training
> 
> Max


For the spectator, zero.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> My opinion- I believe a good helper can put the dog in either Prey or Defense in the B + H, depending on what is needed at that particular time, for that particular dog.



You don't think foundational training has anything to do with it? All BS between me and you aside, what do you see with the dog in the vid above Skip? does he need more defense or prey in the blind?


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Skip Morgart Said:

"For the spectator, zero."

My point exactely!!!

Happy training
Max


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don't underestimate the judges - they've seen and evaluated more dogs than most people on here have had dinners.

They know from the way the dog barks and contains himself in the hold and bark what is to be expected next, and are very rarely wrong.

In Germany the examination to become a judge is not so easy. I know a Swiss Judge who has just taken his examinations to become an SV Judge and on relating his experiences, one could only lift one's hat. This is an international judge, btw, whom most of you have seen.

It's easy to look at a video and give comments.

I'm not saying Schutzhand is the answer to breed selection but some of the dogs that partake in it are first class dogs from breeders who breed for sport, service and police dogs.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> My point exactely!!!
> 
> Happy training
> Max


I think schH is like golf and not really a spectator's sport


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> It shouldn't be. I understand it's a sport, but even so, I think the judges should knock off a few points for dogs that are in Prey during the B&H.


Chris. Not a Schutzhund guy here. But gonna post anyhow. At my own peril:roll:

I don't view it is as a prey/defense thing. I would think it is more of a PREY ONLY or a "FIGHT" thing. 

In my mind I would want a serious guard, showing aggression towards the man. 

I think it would still be prey/fight in my mind not defense. 

A guard, an aggressive challenge to the decoy for the bite. I would like the balanced "fight" package. I have seen the type of dogs you described and they are not balanced, they lack the intensity for the man.


I'll start work on training my dog in a B&H, been wanting to work on some sort of guard anyhow.

Maybe I'll start without the suit or sleeve who knows, LOL. Should be interesting. We'll figure it out this weekend. Day 1 is tomorrow....

I am still going over in my mind how I want the guards in the suit, active or passive. I know active burns up a lot of energy, but I personally like the picture presented, and the dog is pretty active so it would probably be much easier to train the active. Gonna do PSA so it shouldn't matter too much which way I go.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Sorry Chris, i don't understand the content of your statement.

With spectator I mean a judge that has not seen the dog training and doesnot already know what dog he/she likes best before judging, but we don't want to go in to that now.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> You don't think foundational training has anything to do with it? All BS between me and you aside, what do you see with the dog in the vid above Skip? does he need more defense or prey in the blind?


This is MY opinion: most foundation training should be in prey, but that defense must be tested as time goes by. I would have to see more video on the above dog to make much of an opinion, but I didn't care for the helper work. I don't like seeing a helper just casually walking around talking to somebody with a dog on the sleeve. He should either be working (driving) and releasing the sleeve or locked up for an out. I think that dog would look good to most people on club trial day for the B and H, but from the short part I saw it looked like the dog was very (too much) relaxed on the sleeve when the helper was walking around talking, so it looked to me like a lot of prey work. Again, just my opinion. I know there are some helpers (like forum member Jim Laubmeier on here) and Clark Niematalo that do great helper work at the National events, and both can put a dog in defense just by their posturing in the B and H.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> For the spectator, zero.


 
I should have said for MOST spectators who didn't see the dog in training, zero.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> This is MY opinion: most foundation training should be in prey, but that defense must be tested as time goes by.


I agree with this assessment, the type of pressure applied over time creates a much more confident, serious dog, and a better "fight". Decoy presence is a great thing.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

And by "spectator" I don't mean judge. I think most judges can read the dogs pretty good.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> There was one guy who came out and claimed that he had a "real" dog and how bad ass it was. One of the guys called the dog a pussy and offended the handler. So we had him send the dog on a guy with no sleeve. The dog fell apart. Then we hung a sleeve from the top of the blind and guess what? A perfect bark and hold.
> 
> Never saw that guy and his "bad ass" dog again.


Everytime I hear someone say "real" dog it makes me want to throw up in my mouth........:-&

t


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> This is MY opinion: most foundation training should be in prey, but that defense must be tested as time goes by. I would have to see more video on the above dog to make much of an opinion, but I didn't care for the helper work. I don't like seeing a helper just casually walking around talking to somebody with a dog on the sleeve. He should either be working (driving) and releasing the sleeve or locked up for an out. I think that dog would look good to most people on club trial day for the B and H, but from the short part I saw it looked like the dog was very (too much) relaxed on the sleeve when the helper was walking around talking, so it looked to me like a lot of prey work. Again, just my opinion. I know there are some helpers (like forum member Jim Laubmeier on here) and Clark Niematalo that do great helper work at the National events, and both can put a dog in defense just by their posturing in the B and H.



The point with that dog is that he's prey locked. Even though he's bumping the sleeve, I posted it because he's an example of what a lot of people like to see with a dog in the blind. He bounces and looks serious but he would do the same thing with just a sleeve on the ground and no helper in the blind.

We can't get him into defense and we've tried lots of methods. If you put a sleeve in front of him and start beating on him, he'll get conflict and won't even look at the man. It's a nice strong dog but the foundation was all prey and that's what has created the problem. 

IMO- in schH too many people fail to train their dogs to deal with pressure.

BTW- Skip, that helper is the guy that got Jim Laubmeier started.

One more vid of the same dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGyWFwMmdbs

notice around 1:38+ Listen to the bark and hear the conflict as the helper moves to the dog, he should focus on the helper but can't keep his eyes off the sleeve.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Everytime I hear someone say "real" dog it makes me want to throw up in my mouth........:-&
> 
> t


 
Yep..a lot of so-called good dogs and good trainers, and a tremendous amount of BS from some. So many talkers, but very few do-ers.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Here are some interesting I videos, hnb headcam 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTR7TagfsAg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSMjiJlJgIM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqt9nH_8AA


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

I could post dozens of training videos and judges critiques of the same dog at trials, starting from the WUSV last year, that would make your statement untrue, but we already know that.

Sport training has evolved so much that with the right training team you can make a dog look the opposite of what it really is.

The dogs that I refer to a "sleeve biting labradors" are the one that looks the best on the sport field, because in their mind is all a big game in which they have to bite a sleeve or a suit and are so fixated on the equipment that are unable to see the threat (human) in the context or their sport.

That gives them a very clear mind allowing them to be reactive to the handler direction, without showing stress, aggression or defence.

Happy training

Max


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> The point with that dog is that he's prey locked. Even though he's bumping the sleeve, I posted it because he's an example of what a lot of people like to see with a dog in the blind. He bounces and looks serious but he would do the same thing with just a sleeve on the ground and no helper in the blind.
> 
> We can't get him into defense and we've tried lots of methods. If you put a sleeve in front of him and start beating on him, he'll get conflict and won't even look at the man. It's a nice strong dog but the foundation was all prey and that's what has created the problem.
> 
> IMO- in schH too many people fail to train their dogs to deal with pressure.


Haven't seen the dog or worked him but some things I might try to bring up the intensity, if I did.

Backtie or fence work with no equipment..at NIGHT...to add more stress...to elicit a more defensive/aggressive response. I have gotten good results with this type of work for this type of dog. prey guarding as well...

or muzzle, , suit work, hidden equipment if possible.

This is pretty common in high prey strong nerved dogs, and a bitch to overcome if not addressed when the dog is younger, before they are mature seasoned dogs.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> ....
> 
> BTW- Skip, that helper is the guy that got Jim Laubmeier started.


I'm glad he got Laubmeier started, since Jim is one of the best in the US now in my opinion. Has that guy done any helper work at the Nationals? Like I said, it was just my opinion from a very short video, so that was my opinion of that short segment that you asked me for. Trying to ask this in a nice way Chris, but I was surprised at your SchH question, because I thought you had left that venue to train in a different venue. If what you say about the dog is true, I would tell the owner to be careful with that dog. Defense done incorrectly can really fu__ up a dog. Has this dog trialed yet? What is the owner trying to accomplish?


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> ....
> 
> IMO- in schH too many people fail to train their dogs to deal with pressure.
> 
> ....


and in my opinion, some good dogs get really screwed up by people. Was all this dog's training done at this club? What is the hurry now to introduce defense?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> If what you say about the dog is true, I would tell the owner to be careful with that dog. Defense done incorrectly can really fu__ up a dog.


Very true, I usually try to stress the dog without the stress coming from the man in a serious way with dogs like the one described. Working in the dark at night, tie-out, fence work, even prey guarding.. all add some stress without it coming directly from a confrontation where the dog is phyisically assualted , add a little presence and the picture can change without damaging the dog by using the harsher methods...


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Has this dog trialed yet? What is the owner trying to accomplish? I will be the first to admit that SchH is a SPORT and the sleeve is the reward...I think too many people try to make their dog seem like a PPD by training it in SchHutzhund (your negative reference to the dog being focused on the sleeve), but then don't like it when the dog is sleeve focused. They are different, and should be.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> I'm glad he got Laubmeier started, since Jim is one of the best in the US now in my opinion. Has that guy done any helper work at the Nationals? Like I said, it was just my opinion from a very short video, so that was my opinion of that short segment that you asked me for. Trying to ask this in a nice way Chris, but I was surprised at your SchH question, because I thought you had left that venue to train in a different venue. If what you say about the dog is true, I would tell the owner to be careful with that dog. Defense done incorrectly can really fu__ up a dog. Has this dog trialed yet? What is the owner trying to accomplish?


I keep a foot in schH because there are more opportunities for training no matter where I am. When I'm on the road for music, I like to bring a dog if I can and its always easy to find a schH club. I've been spending a lot of time with French Ring.

The helper in that vid, is known to be one of best defensive trainers in this area. He learned for years with Phil Hoelcher and Andrea Meuller_. _He's a training helper, not a trial helper. That dog hasn't trialed yet but he's owned by one of the most experienced helpers and trainers around here.(Rodd Proctor) Rodd works most of the trial around here so it's hard to trial his dog when he's working.

Jim was coming out to the club but He and his wife just had another daughter who right now, is only a month old or so. He's working the Regionals in March and then says he's done with helper work for awhile. I think he's having surgery on his shoulder. His dog blew an ACL so he's not really training these days.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> I know there are some helpers (like forum member Jim Laubmeier on here) and Clark Niematalo that do great helper work at the National events, and both can put a dog in defense just by their posturing in the B and H.


Skip.

With all due respect to Jim and Clark. A trial decoys job
is not to posture or put a dog in defense or any other drive
A trial decoy should be neutral and let the judge see what a 
dog brings to the H&B, not how he reacts to what the decoy
is doing. I think a good H&B is done in aggression, not prey or defense. My SchH III Dobermann did a in your face H&B
(see avatar) that most decoys respected but too many judges
pointed for "bothering the Helper" :-(


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I keep a foot in schH because there are more opportunities for training no matter where I am. When I'm on the road for music, I like to bring a dog if I can and its always easy to find a schH club. I've been spending a lot of time with French Ring.
> 
> The helper in that vid, is known to be one of best defensive trainers in this area. He learned for years with Phil Hoelcher and Andrea Meuller_. _He's a training helper, not a trial helper. That dog hasn't trialed yet but he's owned by one of the most experienced helpers and trainers around here.(Rodd Proctor) Rodd works most of the trial around here so it's hard to trial his dog when he's working.
> 
> Jim was coming out to the club but He and his wife just had another daughter who right now, is only a month old or so. He's working the Regionals in March and then says he's done with helper work for awhile. I think he's having surgery on his shoulder. His dog blew an ACL so he's not really training these days.


How old is the dog? If it hasn't trialed anywhere yet I certainly wouldn't rush the defense. What is he trying to accomplish with more defense on the dog now? I would say (before the dog develops any real issues) I would go slow and get the dog having fun and ready to trial. Has the dog even got his BH yet? I don't understand his owner being a helper getting in the way of trialing the dog. All of our helpers trial their own dogs at our trials. You just use a different helper.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Skip.
> 
> With all due respect to Jim and Clark. A trial decoys job
> is not to posture or put a dog in defense or any other drive
> ...


I believe it all depends on what level of trial you are talking about. I believe at a National event, the helpers need to show a stronger presence, and the helper work should be several levels higher in intensity as compared to club level trials.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> How old is the dog? If it hasn't trialed anywhere yet I certainly wouldn't rush the defense. What is he trying to accomplish with more defense on the dog now? I would say (before the dog develops any real issues) I would go slow and get the dog having fun and ready to trial. Has the dog even got his BH yet? I don't understand his owner being a helper getting in the way of trialing the dog. All of our helpers trial their own dogs at our trials. You just use a different helper.


They are trying to get the dog to not be a such a "sleeve sucker". With that particular session, the dog dies down during the B&H so they were trying a few things. 

I don't want to comment on how, why and what Rodd is doing with his dog because that's not my business and not the point of this thread. 

I'm just happy that I'm training with those guys.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> I believe it all depends on what level of trial you are talking about. I believe at a National event, the helpers need to show a stronger presence, and the helper work should be several levels higher in intensity as compared to club level trials.


 
from the IPO rule book (same rule book used at national and wold events):

*“Hold and bark” (examination level 1-3)*

The helper stands –not visible for handler and dog- with slightly angulated sleeve, motionless and without threatening body posture in the assigned blind. The sleeve serves as body protection. The helper is to watch the dog during the hold and bark. Additional motivation (agitation) as well as help of any kind are not permitted. The helper is to hold the soft stick on his/her side, pointing down. If a dog bothers or grips the helper, the helper may not react with any defensive movements.

Happy training

max


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> They are trying to get the dog to not be a such a "sleeve sucker". With that particular session, the dog dies down during the B&H so they were trying a few things.
> 
> I don't want to comment on how, why and what Rodd is doing with his dog because that's not my business and not the point of this thread.
> 
> I'm just happy that I'm training with those guys.


Well, you keep saying how experienced the helpers and owner is, so I guess I don't understand why you asked for input. My bottom line is that I don't want to see any dog have major setbacks due to training..so my advice is not to put too much defense on yet, especially since the dog has not trialed for anything yet. It's all a buildng process, and the B and H looked plenty good enough for the dog to have fun and pass the SchH 1 in that area...if it has the BH yet. It doesn't impress me to force a dog too early thru some issues on the hopes that it might score higher for it's 1. Does the dog have it's BH yet?


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> from the IPO rule book (same rule book used at national and wold events):
> 
> *“Hold and bark” (examination level 1-3)*
> 
> ...


Are you saying you haven't seen some helpers "watch the dog" more intently? We had 2 very strong, imposing helpers at our nationals, and there is nothing wrong about that in the rules.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> Well, you keep saying how experienced the helpers and owner is, so I guess I don't understand why you asked for input. My bottom line is that I don't want to see any dog have major setbacks due to training..so my advice is not to put too much defense on yet, especially since the dog has not trialed for anything yet. It's all a buildng process, and the B and H looked plenty good enough for the dog to have fun and pass the SchH 1 in that area...if it has the BH yet. It doesn't impress me to force a dog too early thru some issues on the hopes that it might score higher for it's 1. Does the dog have it's BH yet?



Sorry that I didn't communicate better earlier. 

I only posted about that dog because his B&H indeed looks fine but it's all prey. He barks the same way for a ball. I understand that schH is a sport but some still consider it to be a test of a dog's ability and drives. For those that consider it to be a test then a dog doing a B&H in prey is silly. If the helper is viewed as a "bad guy" then shouldn't the dog be slightly "wary" of the bad guy and work in defense? Shouldn't the dog understand that a bad guy could hurt you so the dog needs to show real power and aggression in the blind if he's truly holding a man?

I don't want to talk about the dog because I'm learning from guys like Rodd and for the locals who see this, I look like an idiot talking about Rodd's dog. He helps me and I learn from him. That's our relationship. Whether or not we make fun of his big powerful sleeve dog or not is for the club not a public forum.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Sorry that I didn't communicate better earlier.
> 
> I only posted about that dog because his B&H indeed looks fine but it's all prey. He barks the same way for a ball. I understand that schH is a sport but some still consider it to be a test of a dog's ability and drives. For those that consider it to be a test then a dog doing a B&H in prey is silly. If the helper is viewed as a "bad guy" then shouldn't the dog be slightly "wary" of the bad guy and work in defense? Shouldn't the dog understand that a bad guy could hurt you so the dog needs to show real power and aggression in the blind if he's truly holding a man?
> 
> I don't want to talk about the dog because I'm learning from guys like Rodd and for the locals who see this, I look like an idiot talking about Rodd's dog. He helps me and I learn from him. That's our relationship. Whether or not we make fun of his big powerful sleeve dog or not is for the club not a public forum.


 
It's a building process, even more so for some dogs. NOTHING wrong for a lot of prey at this point, but for the fact that the dog hasn't trialed in anything yet makes me think the protection part is the "be all and end all" for his training. I don't agree with how this dog is being trained, and that's my opinion.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> Are you saying you haven't seen some helpers "watch the dog" more intently? We had 2 very strong, imposing helpers at our nationals, and there is nothing wrong about that in the rules.


 
Don't put words in my mouth that I did not say.

I posted the rule which are very clear and not open to interpretation. The rule states the decoy is supposed to *look* at the dog, in your previous post you talked about *posturing,* which is not the same thing.

I also believe that without posturing you can only look at the dog in one way, with your eyes.

I don't know one of the decoy you mention personally, but I have worked my dog on Clark and with Clark a few times and even if he is not as ugly as I am if he looks at a dog and scares him maybe its time to change dog or find less handsome training decoys.\\/

Happy training

max


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> Don't put words in my mouth that I did not say.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know one of the decoy you mention personally, but I have worked my dog on Clark and with Clark a few times and even if he is not as ugly as I am if he looks at a dog and scares him maybe its time to change dog or find less handsome training decoys.\\/



Jim is a scary dude for any dog. He's damn near 300lbs and fast as freight train. Imagine what a QB sees when a huge defensive tackle has him in his sights.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm very new to this. but the dog in the video looks a bit too "happy"? he is wagging his tail alot. If he was in defensive would he be less happy looking? I know if my dog came around a corner at home and there was a strange man standing there, he would not be wagging his tail. My dogs get suspicious if I even talk to myself at home, they wake up, bark, and wonder who is there!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Donna DeYoung said:


> I'm very new to this. but the dog in the video looks a bit too "happy"? he is wagging his tail alot. If he was in defensive would he be less happy looking? I know if my dog came around a corner at home and there was a strange man standing there, he would not be wagging his tail. My dogs get suspicious if I even talk to myself at home, they wake up, bark, and wonder who is there!


In no refrerence to this dog.

*A tail wag does not always mean happiness  *


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Donna DeYoung said:


> .... the dog in the video looks a bit too "happy"? he is wagging his tail alot. ... I know if my dog came around a corner at home and there was a strange man standing there, he would not be wagging his tail. ...





Joby Becker said:


> *A tail wag does not always mean happiness  *


In fact, watch the tail of this PSD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw



(Thank you to David Frost for the link.)


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Donna DeYoung said:


> I'm very new to this. but the dog in the video looks a bit too "happy"? he is wagging his tail alot. If he was in defensive would he be less happy looking? I know if my dog came around a corner at home and there was a strange man standing there, he would not be wagging his tail. My dogs get suspicious if I even talk to myself at home, they wake up, bark, and wonder who is there!


 
You might want to re-think PP


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> In fact, watch the tail of this PSD:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw
> (Thank you to David Frost for the link.)


Don't know Connie, he looks pretty "happy" to me.:twisted:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Don't know Connie, he looks pretty "happy" to me.:twisted:



That's not fair, I think Mals are happy when they get the bite the shit out of anything.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Skip.
> 
> With all due respect to Jim and Clark. A trial decoys job
> is not to posture or put a dog in defense or any other drive
> ...


Totally with you there...why is it that in schutzhund, defense is so often trumpeted and aggression(fight drive) is regarded as secondary. I've never seen my Malinois worked in "defense drive" no matter how much pressure or stick hits are applied to them, they just get more pissed and react with more fight. Not sure why but I rarely see GSD's exhibit the fight drive that is almost a common trait in the Malinois....could it be that they've become a product of the schutzhund sport where everything is about "prey or defense"?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So where is the defense in a dog barking at a helper trying to flush him/her into movement? It isn't much different than a bird dog barking to get a rabbit or bird to lift, this is a prey/hunt drive motion, IMO. Now it takes a different twist when the helper goes in way the stick hits.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> That's not fair, I think Mals are happy when they get the bite the shit out of anything.


 Mals are just freaking sick! Like a Border Collie just wanting to run the piss out of a group of sheep. Gators with hair...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

barking for the sleeve or the at the helper?


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> In fact, watch the tail of this PSD:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYErjneazQw
> 
> 
> ...


He's just a little too happy, ain't he ;-) Must be gay :razz: LOL

One of my favorite PSD's.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Skip Morgart said:


> I believe it all depends on what level of trial you are talking about. I believe at a National event, the helpers need to show a stronger presence, and the helper work should be several levels higher in intensity as compared to club level trials.


We are talking H & B's...the helper is supposed to remain neutral and not eye screw the dog or whatever else they try to pressure the dog.


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## Robert Miller (Jan 6, 2010)

Well guess my question is this, if the dog is approaching the helper for the h&b (key word approach, or coming to the fight) and the helper remaining motionless and with just eye contact (so technically no threat) is this the place you would want to see defense in the dog?


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## Rigel Lancero (Aug 22, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJSQh5HrzMw

This dog is happy with his bitework.

But the poster and some dudettes are insisting that this dog is the ''real'' thing,a bad ass dog that will bite any man with or without sleeve/suit.

Btw,the decoy here also gives the ''real'' dog the out command,he's the handler too 

Real Bad A$$ Protection Dog? What do you think lol


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Connie,
I read most of the opinions here and not a lot of usefull info for me,but your comment interests me.Do you think there is a lot of(if any) difference in the b&h between the different sports?


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Connie,
You said ,moving to Schh forum.I wonder if what Chris was asking is a specific Schh question.Most bite sports have a b&h,is there a big difference in aproach?Imo there is not,what is your view?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> Connie,
> You said ,moving to Schh forum.I wonder if what Chris was asking is a specific Schh question.Most bite sports have a b&h,is there a big difference in aproach?Imo there is not,what is your view?



The title of his thread is _SchH Bark and Hold Discussion.
_

He titled it. 

I took that to mean that it was a _"SchH Bark and Hold Discussion." _ :lol:

And the new SchH forum had just opened at the same time.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Anyone else? Do you think there is a lot of difference in aproach to the b&h in different bitesports?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I think in theory they are all the same. 

The way Knut Fuchs trains it...it is a obedience exercise that provides the perfect picture for IPO. Now I am pretty sure that someone like a Bert Lamers would probably laugh at that method. But I could be wrong, I guess.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Donna DeYoung said:


> I'm very new to this. but the dog in the video looks a bit too "happy"? he is wagging his tail alot. If he was in defensive would he be less happy looking? I know if my dog came around a corner at home and there was a strange man standing there, he would not be wagging his tail. My dogs get suspicious if I even talk to myself at home, they wake up, bark, and wonder who is there!


 
By your own satement you admit to be very new "at this". 

I suggest to everybody, including myself, to keep your mind, eyes and hears open and to ask a lot of questions, without making statements untill you have experience to back it up.

With dogs it's a never ending learning proces.

From they way you descrive your dogs you may have to rethink PP. You are already making the assumption that they behave correctly for "defensive" porposes.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Connie,
> You said ,moving to Schh forum.I wonder if what Chris was asking is a specific Schh question.Most bite sports have a b&h,is there a big difference in aproach?Imo there is not,what is your view?


I know you questioned Connie, but here is my answer.

I don't have any experience in KNPV training, but in all the ring sport the dog is just required to bark, without biting (touching the suit with the teeth).

Judges don't give their opinion on what type of bark or what drive the dog is in, they just score the behaviour the dog is espected to perform, penalizing the unwanted behaviours also stated in the rule book. Withouth open interpretation.

Therefore trainers don't waste time teaching the dog to "look like something"while barking, they just teach the dog bark.

happy training

Max


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I trained my dog for a B&H with his toy and transeferred that to the field. He is VERY serious when he does his B&H's, but he wags his tail, I take it as he is excited and waiting for the decoy to move so he can get his reward. We don't worry about how he looks though while doing it, we just want him to bark and do what he is told. The way he looks is not even on our minds as long as he is clean in the blind. 

He is a Schutzhund dog.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> Everytime I hear someone say "real" dog it makes me want to throw up in my mouth.......


I have fake dogs. Makes for easier housekeeping! :mrgreen:



This is kind of like people who say they have 'full blooded' dogs. I hope to God they're 'full'! Probably wouldn't be alive if they were only half-ful...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

my dogs were trained in Defense for the B&H.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ok worked on the B&H today. For the first time on a man. Trained her to bark for a ball over the last week or so. With me holding the ball. The dog transferred the skill to the manwork very easily, almost too easily. LOL

With no defensive pressure applied and a just little stimulus, the dog did a decent bark and hold on a guy with no equipment. Is the dog in defense or prey? Or fight? Who the hell knows...would she have bitten the guy with no equipment, I am "guessing" yes (could be wrong). Would she have preferred to have him have the sleeve on , my guess is yes. But hey she is still young...:-$


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

I prefer active aggression in the b/h as opposed to prey or defence. But it ultimately depends on the type of dog you have. They either have the "attitude" or they don't. Also, IMO, the holding in the open field should be an active guard. This silent guard crap should NEVER warrant a "V" rating even if the routine was flawless, it shows no power.

IMO, this what a b/h should look like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg239F609xE


in the making
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAqOCDtiGE 

These are both serious dogs that work in controlled active aggression

another nice dog (don't know him but like what i see)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDCZybW6ucc&feature=fvw


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Greg Naranjo said:


> I prefer active aggression in the b/h as opposed to prey or defence. But it ultimately depends on the type of dog you have. They either have the "attitude" or they don't. Also, IMO, the holding in the open field should be an active guard. This silent guard crap should NEVER warrant a "V" rating even if the routine was flawless, it shows no power.
> 
> IMO, this what a b/h should look like:
> 
> ...


Greg. this was the FIRST session for this dog..I am assuming it was fight, active agression...

Thanks. you just solidified my choice on the active guard for the suit work...by your comments about the open field guard..


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

Joby, the Bouvier has been off leash in the B/h and let me tell you, its some scary shit to be in the blind with that dog. pure power in everything he does....in this video, he's back tied because he hasn't been worked in over a month. 

glad you chose an active guard for the open field...good luck with your training.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

That's how my dogs were trained. The dog is in defense so I called it that. 

Greg, your video vs the video I posted is exactly what I'm talking about with the first post of this thread. Call it active aggression or whatever, I just call it defense. The video I posted shows a dog that looks good but he's a prey dog, there is no defense to him. I think too many people train their dogs to bark for toy in the blind rather than train the dog to deal with what the man in the blind exercise is supposed to represent.




Greg Naranjo said:


> I prefer active aggression in the b/h as opposed to prey or defence. But it ultimately depends on the type of dog you have. They either have the "attitude" or they don't. Also, IMO, the holding in the open field should be an active guard. This silent guard crap should NEVER warrant a "V" rating even if the routine was flawless, it shows no power.
> 
> IMO, this what a b/h should look like:
> 
> ...


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I don't like the term "defense" when it describes guarding behavior - I prefer "prey" or "aggression" behaviors. I think many who use the term defense really mean fight or aggression, but the term can be misconstrued easily as it really means the dog is defensive and defending itself. IMO the dog in the hold/bark or any guarding should be guarding the helper, wanting the fight to begin or resume, controlling itself until that happens or until the handler calls it off. The guarding dog should be in fight drive, and showing aggression, not prey IMO. He should be looking directly at the helper, in the eye, and never looking at the sleeve or wondering where the handler or judge is.

I also will disagree that a silent guard cannot show power in the guarding. I too prefer a good active guard, because the dog can use all of it's body language to show it's intentions - barking, pushing the helper, getting in the helper's face - however the truly aggressive dog that is borderline out of control in the guarding (in aggression) can lose points "out the window" with an active guard - if the dog is pushing the helper - bothering the helper - (we are talking Schutzhund sport now, so points matter) - OR if the dog isn't a great barking dog - sometimes dogs that are so "into" the helper and intent on the fight with him will not bark so great - instead they clack their teeth, or just don't bark that great - then the silent guard must be considered. Dogs that are intent on the helper, the fight and are focused completely on the helper in the guarding, will be so in the silent guard as well. The judge who looks for power in the guarding can tell if the dog is guarding with intensity, and it is pretty obvious also to the observer who is experienced - the dogs lacking intensity in the silent guard are pretty obviously relaxed, backed off the helper, even looking around for their handler - I HATE that. These are normally prey-driven dogs - no prey, no interest. These dogs must be trained with active guarding, so at least their time is occupied with barking, so the picture is better. Though it is pretty easy to tell a prey dog from an aggressive dog in the active guarding, too though not always clear in trial, it will be in training.

molly


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Molly Graf said:


> I don't like the term "defense" when it describes guarding behavior - I prefer "prey" or "aggression" behaviors.
> 
> the dogs lacking intensity in the silent guard are pretty obviously relaxed, backed off the helper, even looking around for their handler - I HATE that. These are normally prey-driven dogs - no prey, no interest.
> 
> molly



You don't make sense.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

sorry - 

I don't like the term defense. It means the dog is acting in defense, defending itself - to me this isn't a good way to describe or term the guarding exercise. The dog is normally working in either prey (should not be in prey in the guarding IMO) or active aggression. Not defense. But, most people describe active aggression in guarding as defense. It is the "normal term" - but I don't like that term myself.

For the silent guard - IMO dogs that are strong in the guarding and can be under control, should be trained in active guarding (barking) - and I prefer that myself - but there are dogs who show power and intensity in the silent guard as well. I think it is clear which dogs are powerful in the silent guard (focused, intense, staring down the helper, body tense and ready for action) - and those that are guarding in prey, and/or are not powerful (should never be trained silent guard in these cases) - the dog is relaxed, not intense, not staring, glancing back at the handler, body posture not intense - ears back (listening for the handler), rocked back away from the helper - anyway it's pretty clear.

sorry hard to describe in writing I guess.

molly


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

Molly Graf said:


> The judge who looks for power in the guarding can tell if the dog is guarding with intensity, and it is pretty obvious also to the observer who is experienced - the dogs lacking intensity in the silent guard are pretty obviously relaxed, backed off the helper, even looking around for their handler


 
not at this trial...here is a a perfect example
http://www.youtube.com/user/majorx0#p/u/2/PW-AjtVb1Xg
http://www.youtube.com/user/majorx0#p/u/3/L5nf_NQ9NKA

.... Santa Clause came early to Florida last year

...and the sad part is, this dog will some day be bred.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Greg Naranjo said:


> not at this trial...here is a a perfect example
> http://www.youtube.com/user/majorx0#p/u/2/PW-AjtVb1Xg
> http://www.youtube.com/user/majorx0#p/u/3/L5nf_NQ9NKA
> 
> ...



yeah not a fan of Ivan's protection training.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Molly,

what about those dogs that look great in the blind but they are really doing nothing more than barking for a ball. You ok with that? 

I posted this earlier in the thread...

What do you think of this dog? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WdzmJ6t-QA


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I couldn't get the videos to load, probably my computer I'll try later when I'm back from slogging through the snow with the dogs. You are right though, it isn't the "norm" for Schutzhund judges to look for power in the guarding. They are looking for obedience, control and grips - unfortunately for the breed, you are correct. The dogs that will get the points are the prey animals who are obedient and "correct" - for the sport, not for the work at hand. It is sad and I see it, don't like it. As a breeder I look for the power, even if the dog doesn't get the points. I look at dogs that failed, depending on why they failed - if they failed due to power and "out of control" or other, because of power and strong temperament, I like that dog for breeding, just not a "sporty dog" for sport.

molly


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

chris, I was able to open your video. It is hard to tell about a dog from 5 seconds of video. But, normally in my experience a dog that is leaping off the ground, jumping around "dancing" like that, is a prey dog. And the barking is not strong or "powerful". I don't like that. But I wouldn't be able to say that I'm right about that, without seeing more of that dog in training. I could be wrong, it could be a very powerful dog - but from that 5 seconds of video it looks like a prey dog to me. 

molly


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Some funny stuff here, lol. Ivan has titled more dogs in more sports than probably everybody on here, lol Go help him out Chris, LOL. Man, i wish more people would show video of them and their dogs to show what they mean. Molly let's see some power!!!

Here's a nice B&H http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B94e74PrB8s

Harry, can you show some video of your Dutchies?? Let's see it man!!!!!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Some funny stuff here, lol. Ivan has titled more dogs in more sports than probably everybody on here, lol Go help him out Chris, LOL. Man, i wish more people would show video of them and their dogs to show what they mean. Molly let's see some power!!!
> 
> Here's a nice B&H http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B94e74PrB8s



I have an ot vitosha dog. I follow his OB but do not prefer how his dogs tend to look in protection. They may be "correct" in the exercise but I like something a little more flashy. Until winning schH means winning money, I'm going to train for the way I like to see it in my dog.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Al Curbow said:


> Some funny stuff here, lol. Ivan has titled more dogs in more sports than probably everybody on here, lol Go help him out Chris, LOL. Man, i wish more people would show video of them and their dogs to show what they mean. Molly let's see some power!!!
> 
> Here's a nice B&H http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B94e74PrB8s
> 
> Harry, can you show some video of your Dutchies?? Let's see it man!!!!!


This is a nice dog by all means AL, unfortuantely the dog has been conditioned to the toy on the guys arm. Looks like a real good dog though, probally would of made somebody a nice GSD for PSD.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Molly Graf said:


> chris, I was able to open your video. It is hard to tell about a dog from 5 seconds of video. But, normally in my experience a dog that is leaping off the ground, jumping around "dancing" like that, is a prey dog. And the barking is not strong or "powerful". I don't like that. But I wouldn't be able to say that I'm right about that, without seeing more of that dog in training. I could be wrong, it could be a very powerful dog - but from that 5 seconds of video it looks like a prey dog to me.
> 
> molly


He looks very similar to the video of that Bandit dog you posted, and you called that dog excellent.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Harry, once his head got smacked into the side of the blind he remembered to bounce up and down. LOL. Aren't most dogs conditioned to bite the equipment? Otherwise the dogs would go under the sleeve and bite stomaches or legs etc?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Al Curbow said:


> Harry, once his head got smacked into the side of the blind he remembered to bounce up and down. LOL. Aren't most dogs conditioned to bite the equipment? Otherwise the dogs would go under the sleeve and bite stomaches or legs etc?


Yes Al I totally agree. Thats why i wouldn't send a PSA, PSD, PPD, Ring or KNPV dog on a Schutzhund decoy on a long bite ( who knows how thats going to turn out ) LOL. I just see videos or in person sometimes schutzhund dogs that would be more than a sport dog and wonder why peole don't continue to further them and just stop at the sport level at not let those dogs in my eyes be allowed to use their full potential.:-k


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Bandit does not stand on his hind legs and bark into the air, dance around and hop around in front of the helper - he has a fairly serious guarding, and he is a serious dog. However he can be a very pushy dog, and a very dirty dog - he was 'cleaned up' in Germany to be more polite in the guarding than I like, the video was made just after he came over - he is less polite now, hopefully better balanced between the power he has, and control of it. Certainly not 'dancing in prey'. This is why it can be difficult to know a dog from a video - you have to see the dog in training to really know it. If you know, you will see the difference.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Here's a nice B&H http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B94e74PrB8s 

I like this dog.


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

I haven't made it through this entire post, but I have to take my kids to the park before they go bonkers.
Obviously, every dog is different, and different dives and motivations are needed to get different dogs to do the exercises.
For sport, I would stick with what looks good and gets consistent, dependable results. 
Tom Rose was one of the last guys I know of to score 300 points. His dog worked entirely out of prey. Under constant pressure to introduce defense to make his perfect H & B "better", he decided it wasn't really worth risking creating any issues out of defense introduction.

for what its worth...


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Yes, Kevin is correct - if you do schutzhund sport and want the big points - the dog almost certainly has to be working in prey, and be very obedient. This is the "right kind of dog" and training for winning - wrong kind of dog for breeding IMO. It is what I don't like about the sport - IMO the dogs exhibiting power AND control should be the ones getting the points. But unfortunately, that's just not how it is.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Molly Graf said:


> Yes, Kevin is correct - if you do schutzhund sport and want the big points - the dog almost certainly has to be working in prey, and be very obedient. This is the "right kind of dog" and training for winning - wrong kind of dog for breeding IMO. It is what I don't like about the sport - IMO the dogs exhibiting power AND control should be the ones getting the points. But unfortunately, that's just not how it is.


Does this depend on the judge then? I don't participate in Schutzhund, but Greg posted a vid of Master as an example of a good/serious bark and hold. Last year, in the US at least, Master seemed to be getting the points and winning competitions.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

For the silent guard part of this discussion - here is a video I just received - this pup is 20 months - just learning the out - I believe it was one of the first "out" sessions. Obviously they are teaching him a barking guard. IMO this dog shows that he will be powerful, even though right now they are working him in prey (as they should be). He will have a very strong, powerful intense guarding, whether it's barking (which I would do with this dog if he were mine) or silent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWA838KFays


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Konnie, I think Master showed a very good B&H too, but he was also correct and obedient. There are no reasons to take points away for this, certainly points are not taken away because the dog is showing power in the guarding. But the temperament of a strong powerful dog will show through in the end, points are normally lost by bothering the helper during the guarding outside the blind, slow outs, and some lack of obedience due to the dog being more interested in the helper, than in listening completely to the handler. Phil is a very experienced trainer and probably one that can take a very powerful dog and get the obedience on him necessary to still make the points. Probably a fine line though for him - keeping the power in place while tightening the obedience can be difficult.

molly


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks, Molly.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

This all sounds like sooooo much fun, glad we do bite and holds. How in the world can a SCH bark and hold be defense? The only prey as I see it, the dog is wasting energy barking to get the decoy to pop the sleeve. Drive the decoy THROUGH the blind and yer talking real fight drive. 

I'm out of this, Schutzhund is too real for me.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> This all sounds like sooooo much fun, glad we do bite and holds. How in the world can a SCH bark and hold be defense? The only prey as I see it, the dog is wasting energy barking to get the decoy to pop the sleeve. Drive the decoy THROUGH the blind and yer talking real fight drive.
> 
> I'm out of this, Schutzhund is too real for me.



it's all in the training Howard. If the dog is taught in training that the guy is a serious threat then the dog will come in the blind in defense. It takes prey to get to the blind but he'd better be in defense when he gets to the man.

My dogs were trained in defense/active aggression whatever you want to call it. It's slow and tedious but to me, it makes for a stronger dog in the blind.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> it's all in the training Howard. If the dog is taught in training that the guy is a serious threat then the dog will come in the blind in defense. It takes prey to get to the blind but he'd better be in defense when he gets to the man.
> 
> My dogs were trained in defense/active aggression whatever you want to call it. It's slow and tedious but to me, it makes for a stronger dog in the blind.



Chris,

I also really prefer a dog in Active aggression when he gets to blind 6 (see Dubheasa in my avatar) but I believe it is something the dog has naturally and is difficult to "train"
The search is all prey for the most part, but why should the
dog go into defense during a trial when he gets to the decoy? During training the decoy can do what ever it takes to put the dog in defense BUT during the trial the decoy is
supposed to be neutral/non threatening?

How many dogs have you seen at trials that get to a passive
decoy in blind 6 and not have a clue how to react?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

well I wrote a long response but my connection is being weird here and my post didn't make it.

I like the active aggression barking and hold, you can't get that when the dog is just taught to dance for the sleeve/ball. You can get something similar but it's not quite the same. 

I think dealing with a passive helper is a training issue. It's problem for one of my own dogs but we've been training through it.


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

Molly Graf said:


> keeping the power in place while tightening the obedience can be difficult.
> 
> molly


thats what some people in other sports that knock Schutzhund don't seem to understand......make fun all you want about the sport, but a three phase sport with precision in every phase, with out loosing drive & power.... that my friend is is alot of stress on a dog! if the dog can withstand the screws tightening and still perform to a true V or high SG rating, then you have yourself a damn good dog.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Agreed it's always a balancing act. How much here.... will affect this.... in turn will affect that....


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

That's right - and this is why (the sport is supposed to ) be a tool for breeding, a test of breedworthiness - because, it's not just protection. it's not just pretty fancy obedience "trick" training as some might call it. And it's not just tracking easy step by step tracking. It's all of the above - and if you put pressure on the dog to get the points needed to V in protection (for instance), you might get exactly that, but you will start having issues with tracking, or obedience - it is a balancing act for sure. You start with a good dog (hopefully) and try to make everything the best the dog can be, on trial day - without causing more problems in one or more phases while working on the one you think you're having problems with. Vicious circle, sometimes. NOT easy, for sure.

molly


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Greg Naranjo said:


> Joby, the Bouvier has been off leash in the B/h and let me tell you, its some scary shit to be in the blind with that dog. pure power in everything he does....in this video, he's back tied because he hasn't been worked in over a month.
> 
> glad you chose an active guard for the open field...good luck with your training.


I am seeing more and more SCARY bouv's the more time I look around...I like them....Thanks


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Greg Naranjo said:


> thats what some people in other sports that knock Schutzhund don't seem to understand......make fun all you want about the sport, but a three phase sport with precision in every phase, with out loosing drive & power.... that my friend is is alot of stress on a dog! if the dog can withstand the screws tightening and still perform to a true V or high SG rating, then you have yourself a damn good dog.


Let me start by saying that currently I train for SchH/Ipo, but for sevel years I competed and trained other people dogs for ring.

In all the ring sport the amount of behaviours and the control and speed of execution make the "C" phase of IPO look like "kids stuff", as a trainer and especially for the dog.

You don't believe me? Tiltle your dog to ring 3 and than come back and tell me.

Very successful SchH/Ipo trainers have already tried without much success.

Not an argument, just a statement based on experience, personal and by watching accomplished IPO trainers fail.

Happy training


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> I have an ot vitosha dog. I follow his OB but do not prefer how his dogs tend to look in protection. They may be "correct" in the exercise but I like something a little more flashy. Until winning schH means winning money, I'm going to train for the way I like to see it in my dog.


I could be wrong but I do think winning in SCH does mean money..big money...At least thats what I hear from all my GSD and Sch friends...Money on dogs, training, and breeding.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Molly Graf said Quote: And it's not just tracking easy step by step tracking. It's all of the above - and if you put pressure on the dog to get the points needed to V in protection (for instance), you might get exactly that, but you will start having issues with tracking, or obedience - it is a balancing act for sure. Unquote

I can't understand why you would say that.

The balancing act is not between Tracking and Protection for sure!!!
The balance is between the handler and the dog.

If I pressure the dog in C, it won't remotely have any influence on A and vice versa.

Or do you think it's thinking, shucks, she reprimanded me in C, I'll stuff her in A??

On the other hand, what sort of dogs are you working with?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Why couldn't or what didn't you understand? 

Handler conflict or lack off can change from day to day...session to session in varying degrees. IMO any baggage created can(notice I said can not will) carry over from any phase to any phase regardless of dog.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

What Keith said. I must have not communicated clearly, again. 

If the handler must put pressure on a dog - say (for example) for obedience in protection, and the dog IS pressured - then it (the pressure) CAN show up in one or both of the other phases. The dog that was previously tracking great suddenly quits, or lies - or refuses to jump, or retrieve, or..... anyway pressure in one phase can affect the other phases. Like I said, I think.

molly


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Molly Graf said Quote: And it's not just tracking easy step by step tracking. It's all of the above - and if you put pressure on the dog to get the points needed to V in protection (for instance), you might get exactly that, but you will start having issues with tracking, or obedience - it is a balancing act for sure. Unquote
> 
> I can't understand why you would say that.
> 
> ...


I'll give a different example if handler is doing/making a force retrieve with there dog I have seen conflict spill into other areas of training. 
In the old days if there was a battle with handler and dog we/club would stay away from bite work for a couple of weeks after breaking down the dog


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Yes, what Mike and Keith said. Thank you.

molly


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Never experienced this personally, nor with other dogs, so cannot comment obviously.

As I say, depends on what sort of dogs you are working.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Lucky you....I guess some of us, more than just a couple it seems, have..


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Personally I have seen it, more than I have experienced it, as I don't train with a lot of pressure -I don't force track, I don't force retrieve - not saying it doesn't work, just not what I personally do - have seen many times where 'force' or pressure can screw the dog up in other phases - it's a good idea, as Keith said, to give the dog a break from other training when pressure is happening in one phase, so that you don't have to then fix another problem. 

molly


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Defense means that the dog views the a situation as a threat. How can a dog see the same helper week after week & view him as a threat? Actually, because the dog is conditioned to bite the sleeve the test isn't really a test because nothing painful or dangerous ever happens to the dog during protection. Why should he feel threatened?

I think a certain type of dog becomes angry wanting the helper to pop the sleeve so the fighting can begin--and that anger is carried over to the barking. I think to maximize the dog's confidence & anger, you need a helper who will act a little--give the dog the sense of winning against a worthy opponent.

My dog barks at the sleeve because he knows that as soon as the sleeve moves, the fight begins. He bites for real--just not on the SchH field.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Lucky you....I guess some of us, more than just a couple it seems, have..


Yes, lucky me

I honestly cannot comprehend why corrections in A should affect work in B or C and vice versa. I can understand if one is working in B and has trouble in one exercise and doesn't put the dog away and bring him out again for the next exercise but for this to affect another discipline?

It's not only me, I haven't seen it in other handler's dogs either!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> I am seeing more and more SCARY bouv's the more time I look around...I like them....Thanks


 I thought you said scary Bo%bs...shades of old biker chicks...erh!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Yes, lucky me
> 
> I honestly cannot comprehend why corrections in A should affect work in B or C and vice versa. I can understand if one is working in B and has trouble in one exercise and doesn't put the dog away and bring him out again for the next exercise but for this to affect another discipline?
> 
> It's not only me, I haven't seen it in other handler's dogs either!


I don't see it like I used to when more compliance training was used, most in our club train retriever motivational and the way we train force now is clearer teaching before the compliance pressure is turned up we haven't broke a dog down in prolly 15 years and that was my Rottweiler and it was ugly.


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