# Prong during bitework



## Mike Schoonbrood

We don't have many good discussions going on actual training so figured I'd try n start something....

Does anyone here put their dog on a prong during bitework? If so, what is your reason for doing so and what differences do you see in the dogs work vs. working on a flat collar or a harness?


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## Woody Taylor

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> We don't have many good discussions going on actual training so figured I'd try n start something....
> 
> Does anyone here put their dog on a prong during bitework? If so, what is your reason for doing so and what differences do you see in the dogs work vs. working on a flat collar or a harness?


You're just talking about agitation stuff, or....? what's yer 'bitework' definition...


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Put the dog on a prong collar (2 rings so it's not acting like a choker) and have a decoy agitate the dog.

Also to add to the original question...

If you do this, at what stage of the training do you introduce the dog to bitework on a prong and what "drive" do you want to work the dog in when you do this? Are you trying to do back n forth prey work or more confrontational/challenging the dog?


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Also, what type of dog would you do this with and what are you trying to achieve out of it?


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## Woody Taylor

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Put the dog on a prong collar (2 rings so it's not acting like a choker) and have a decoy agitate the dog.


Argh, I am in the minority and a worthless noob, but I never get the whole dead ring thing. It's just not a pinch at that point, IMN(ewb)O opinion...

So at least one trainer I know will do this. I do not know if it's to conserve energy of the dog...guess basically the same rationale for why lots of folks don't like harnesses?


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## Tim Martens

Woody Taylor said:


> Mike Schoonbrood said:
> 
> 
> 
> Put the dog on a prong collar (2 rings so it's not acting like a choker) and have a decoy agitate the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Argh, I am in the minority and a worthless noob, but I never get the whole dead ring thing. It's just not a pinch at that point, IMN(ewb)O opinion...
> 
> So at least one trainer I know will do this. I do not know if it's to conserve energy of the dog...guess basically the same rationale for why lots of folks don't like harnesses?
Click to expand...

with my first two dogs, all agitation/bitework was done on a flat collar. with my current dog, i use the prong. control is much more of an issue with this dog as he has more "drive" (insert whatever definition or drive you desire here). for me, it's just a matter of control. he barely responds to prong corrections. flat collar corrections do nothing but get me tired...


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## Woody Taylor

Tim Martens said:


> with my current dog, i use the prong. control is much more of an issue with this dog as he has more "drive" (insert whatever definition or drive you desire here)
> 
> 
> 
> That makes sense to me. How are you clipping it on him? (dead vs live)...and how tightly are you fitting it? Does it ever do any damage?
Click to expand...


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## Selena van Leeuwen

young dogs on a flat, older (knowing they may bite) dogs on a prong (live).


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## David Frost

I'm an old choker guy. I stick with the choker for nearly everything, including a dead link for beginning tracking.

DFrost


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Choker is good, if you can work it..and I can´t :roll:


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## Kristen Cabe

All the dogs at my club are agitated either on a prong collar (live ring) or a fursaver ('dead' ring). Some also wear an e-collar, in addition to the fursaver or prong. I still don't fully understand the reasoning behind using a prong collar for agitation work, but the reason that I have gotten when I've asked about it is that it causes the dog to show more aggression towards the helper because when he hits the end of the leash, it hurts, and he associates that hurt with the helper. I haven't seen dogs younger than 18 months on a prong during bitework. I know a few handlers that use the prong during bitework simply because the dog "pulls too much," but I _really_ don't like _that_ reason for using it. One handler even puts his dog on a prong when the dog is on the backtie. No one uses the 'two-leash' method at my club, where one leash is attached to the agitation collar and another to a correction collar. No one uses a harness or wide collar for agitation either. The reasoning there is that the dog associates bitework with those pieces of equipment, and when those pieces of equipment are taken out of the picture, the dog may not perform as well. My TD also believes that wide collars hinder barking because they allow the dog to pull against them harder. The only dogs that get to wear a regular flat collar are the young puppies. Everyone else's everyday collar is the fursaver, and either fursaver or prong is used during training.


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## Khoi Pham

I use it for creating conflict to bring out more aggression during the bark & hold in the blind, decoy will pop the whip and he will get prong, my dog is thinking I am doing the right thing, bark and not bite but I'm still getting prong and so he get pissed and put the aggression toward the decoy since he assiociate the whip with prong, his bark is much more serious instead of a bark for reward bite. Timing must be right or if you have a strong dog, he might get pissed and turn around and bite the handler for what he thinks is a unfair correction.


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## Andres Martin

In bitework, I mainly use a prong (live ring) to teach the revier as an intensity builder and a distance limiter. But I also use it to quicken the return from an out. (Not in the same sessions). I try to keep one or two goals in mind per session. I do not use it to agitate, unless I'm teaching the dog self control with a decoy that's simply moving in a strange manner...not agitating the dog. But I put it on the dog without using it for a bunch of other things. All equipment should be transparently interchangeable...and the dog should not associate one piece for one purpose...it should associate ANY piece with WORK.

Sometimes, also to teach "out", to increase the bite depth, or to release cleanly and stay clean, and many other things.

Mike...regarding what drive, what type of dog, what purposes...this is a very ample subject, because there is no definitive answer. Plus, each trainer has his own "bag of tricks". So the prongs have different uses, for different dogs, in different moments and for different purposes, and that changes according to what you see. Dog training is mostly not a science...it's an art.


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## Greg Long

I start all dogs out in bitework on the prong and always on the dead ring.In fact I never ever use the live ring for anything.If the dog is showing to be overly sensitive to the prong during bitework then it gets the flat collar.Some dogs will shut down if they are really sensitive or are not used to the prong.
My pups have a prong on most of the time so they are really used to it and it doesnt seem to ever be a problem.
I dont backtie pups or dogs for agitation or bitework unless it is just to watch the other dogs work.

As far as what "drive" I really dont know.Aggressive drive I guess... :lol: 

The decoy work is mostly confrontational without excessive movement.This is the same with young pups as with older dogs.

As for barking,I just as soon my dogs not bark..its just a waste of energy.


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## Daniel Cox

*at my club*

At our club we generally start all dogs out on a large flat leather collar. I like to use either a 1 1/2 or 2 inch leather collar. We generally use the flat collar for all the drive building and then switch to a pinch once we want to teach the bark and hold. If we do use the pinch for bitework then we hook to both rings. Most of our dogs in the club could be worked on a fursaver or just about any collar but it is generally more comfortable for the dog if you use a large flat collar IMHO. I think a large flat collar allows the dog to pull harder and build more drive. I think for most high drive working dogs the collar does not matter but why work your dog on a pinch in bitework unless you are trying to teach him something.


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## Sarah Hall

Depends on the dog. Carbon hasn't even seen a prong, and won't until about 18 months old. If the dog is wary of strangers and could possibly pose a threat, I use a prong. I also would use one to build the aggrivation on a guard.


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## Andres Martin

> No one uses the 'two-leash' method at my club, where one leash is attached to the agitation collar and another to a correction collar. No one uses a harness or wide collar for agitation either. The reasoning there is that the dog associates bitework with those pieces of equipment, and when those pieces of equipment are taken out of the picture, the dog may not perform as well.


Kristen...

A dog will also strongly associate the training field, the tree from which it is tied, the use of a long line, a particular bag being brought out, other dogs being agitated, the clothes you put on, the time of day, the stuff you put in your car, your body posture, your smell (of tension and stress), the sleeve/suit/tug, the agitators movement, the stick, etc. to bitework. It amazes me the level of nuance and subtlety a dog picks up on.

A quick question: How loud do you say "Out" for your dog to let go? How loud have you heard other people say it?

My point is this: make sure you put all the ingredients (equipment) IN the soup; and take MOST of the ingredients out. What you really want is for your dog to associate his aggression to aggression against him or you, or to cues given by YOU. These are the left-over ingredients.

As for the prong...in my opinion, if I need it for capping, it means I don't have the dog I should have. For my dog, I use the prong strictly as a correction, coming from me. As far as helping with other people's dogs, sure, I'll use it for capping. It works best when the dog in question, DOES NOT regularly use a prong collar, is a high prey drive dog, and is also quite hard.


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## Sarah Hall

Andres:
My answer to the "out" question: However loud you need to!
Seriously though, I've heard people that only had to say their "out" command in a normal tone of voice. And then, there's the people with either very high drive dogs or very LOUD dogs that practically scream it. It all depends on the dog you're working with.


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## Kristen Cabe

Andres Martin said:


> Kristen...
> 
> A dog will also strongly associate the training field, the tree from which it is tied, the use of a long line, a particular bag being brought out, other dogs being agitated, the clothes you put on, the time of day, the stuff you put in your car, your body posture, your smell (of tension and stress), the sleeve/suit/tug, the agitators movement, the stick, etc. to bitework. It amazes me the level of nuance and subtlety a dog picks up on.
> 
> My point is this: make sure you put all the ingredients (equipment) IN the soup; and take MOST of the ingredients out. What you really want is for your dog to associate his aggression to aggression against him or you, or to cues given by YOU. These are the left-over ingredients.


I completely get what you're saying; I was just explaining the reasoning that I was given by the other people at my club. I don't think they were saying the dog wouldn't perform at all - they were saying he might not perform _as well_ as he would _with_ the agitation collar or harness on. Just as you might reason that a dog might not perform as well on a new field vs. his home field, or with a different helper, or different _type_ of helper than he's used to (ie: race or sex). That's all. I haven't been at this long enough to have reasonings of my own yet, :lol: so what I posted was just what I've been told by my club.




> A quick question: How loud do you say "Out" for your dog to let go? How loud have you heard other people say it?


I don't say "Aus" yet, aside from when I'm playing with Jak at home and I want him to give me a toy. I use a normal tone of voice for all of my commands, though, with both dogs. I've heard it said in both a normal tone of voice and also yelled, like Sarah said. At my club, most of the people use a normal to slightly-louder-than-normal tone of voice for the out command. 

I don't understand why you asked this question, though. Could you explain?


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## Andres Martin

> A quick question: How loud do you say "Out" for your dog to let go? How loud have you heard other people say it?
> 
> I don't understand why you asked this question, though. Could you explain?


...because a great many people do not use a dog's listening/attention ability/capability. The "OOOUUUTTT" is a clear example of this. Regarding a dog's capacity for nuance, most people don't use it, recognize it, demand it...etc. If you must rely on exaggerated stimuli to get the dog to bite, to grip, to release, to find, etc. you will forever be "bartering" with your dog: "If you do this, I'll give you that..."

This is not to say bartering has no place, nor that dog's don't OFTEN choose to disobey (once the cue/behavior combo has been understood).


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## David Frost

Interesting question Mike, but I have to take a different approach to the answer than a sport dog. I may well be on a harness during a bite situation, or the standard working gear the choker. We have to proof the out from many distractions. Regardless of the collar being worn, OUT, means OUT. Regardless of the activity the dog is involved in, OUT means OUT. I don't teach the reviere, because once again, the dog is either engaged or he's been called outl. Ours is a bit more simplified, I understand that. "Get Him" means he pursues, engages, holds until told otherwise. Out means exactly that, release and return to heel.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott

All the dogs at our club work with a flat leather or fursaver only. 
The ONLY dog that has worn a pinch is all about the handler then the dog.
We have a new dog at club (SchH I Presa) that came with all the pinch, e-collar, choke training. Super serious dog! After about 3 weeks she's being worked motivationally and her whole attitude has come up. 
On our club shirts are the initials FTCA. That stands for Fence Training Candy Asses. It was given to us by another club in the area that has no idea how to train a dog without beating the crap out of it. 
We wear the FTCA proudly! :wink:


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## Tim Martens

interesting you bring up the "out" command andres. my first two dogs (that i basically had to train up from scratch) would release even if i just barely said it. just above a whisper in a calm, controlled voice. that is how i trained them, that is how it was done. my current dog who came with an IPO title, i can only assume was yelled at to get the out, because that's what i have to do. i'm not so sure it has as much to do with "drive" as it does with how the dog is trained. i'm started to tone down the command and it's slowly coming. 

for sport, i guess it isn't as much of an issue. for police work, it looks a lot better if your dog will out without having to scream the command at the top of your lungs.


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## Sarah Hall

Very good point made, Tim! I love the diversity we have on here, you can ask a general question, get a whole bunch of different views on it, then decide which works for your situation.


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## Bob Scott

Tim Martens said:


> interesting you bring up the "out" command andres. my first two dogs (that i basically had to train up from scratch) would release even if i just barely said it. just above a whisper in a calm, controlled voice. that is how i trained them, that is how it was done. my current dog who came with an IPO title, i can only assume was yelled at to get the out, because that's what i have to do. i'm not so sure it has as much to do with "drive" as it does with how the dog is trained. i'm started to tone down the command and it's slowly coming.
> 
> for sport, i guess it isn't as much of an issue. for police work, it looks a lot better if your dog will out without having to scream the command at the top of your lungs.


I'm also a big believer in the dog's response to a command is how it's taught.


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## Connie Sutherland

I've been wondering about the bellowed commands since I first saw bitework. What is the reason for that?


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## David Frost

When emotions are running high, you are filled with adrenelin, there are multiple people scurrying about, sirens, flashing lights, yelling and screaming, a whisper may not be heard. In addition to that, the dog also "feeds" off the increased activity and nervous energy. Sometimes by golly ya just get caught up in the excitement. Training is great, but it is extremely difficult to replicate the energy that is often found in an actual situation.

DFrost


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## Andres Martin

So...

The thread has moved a bit to the "Out". Regarding volume of the command, I agree completely that the dog responds how it was taught. This includes stuff like yelling, "OUT!", not getting a release, then yelling, "NO! FIDO, OUT!". The dog will learn that you really mean it the SECOND time. SO: Say it ONCE, then ENFORCE IT.

If we get it back on track...what is the purpose of a prong during bitework.

1) A correction tool.
2) A capping tool.

I do not like #2 for my dog. I don't need it, and in a high drive dog, it just causes control problems. If a dog needs a prong to become CONDITIONED to EXPRESS POWER, instead of just having POWER TO BEGIN WITH, that dog is not a TRUE WORKING DOG. He may however, be a dog from working lines whose owner is trying to do something with him. For a dog such as the latter, capping can be useful...in sport.


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## Kristen Cabe

What do you mean when you talk about 'capping'?


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## Sarah Hall

Pronging to show a dog's aggression isn't just a crutch for a weak dog. There are some VERY good dogs that are the silent "killers", they don't show their level of aggression through any vocalization, but they demonstrate their aggression on the bite. Some people like the flashier display that a barking dog creates, but it isn't always a sign of a true working dog. I've seen MANY weak dogs that can put on one hell of an aggressive display but the fact is that THEY ARE STILL WEAK!


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Weak dogs "anounce"... "rah rah rah look im a big mean dog! rah rah rah!". If you watch the body language and listen to the bark you can tell.


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## Sarah Hall

Hey! Great minds think alike, huh Mike? :lol:


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## Andres Martin

Capping: I suspect it comes from the cap on a soda bottle. If you cap the bottle, shake it, build up the internal pressure, and then uncap it...the "release" is more powerful. The same with a dog. Prior to a bite, to a recall, to a retrieve, etc. you restrain, frustrate, and cause mild aggravation to the dog - BEFORE THE DOG DOES *WHAT IT WANTS MOST* - then, when you release the dog to do what it wants, he'll do it more powerfully.


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## Mark Keating

*command volume*

Usually I whisper all my commands in training. And the out is completely dependent on the distance the dog is from me. 
I save my "power voice" for trials. 

Mark


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## Woody Taylor

*Re: command volume*



Mark Keating said:


> Usually I whisper all my commands in training. And the out is completely dependent on the distance the dog is from me.
> I save my "power voice" for trials.


Welcome, Mark! 

Mark is the trainer at Red Star Kennels with whom I've begun working Annie. He's a great addition to our forum and will bring additional insights into Ring and PSA, among lots of other things!


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## Connie Sutherland

Welcome, Mark!!!!!


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## Andres Martin

Mike Sch.... What's your take on prongs in bitework? You started this, so ante up...


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I'm undecided... some dogs I like it, some dogs I don't. Cujo needs to practice a good bark and not a bark that makes people think Lÿka's the one barking, he sounds like a damn puppy in his bitework, but agitating on a prong gives him a little more fire, it brings out the deeper bark so we can reward with a bite on a deep bark and ignore the whiney crap.

On Lÿka, I've tried a prong on her in 2 situations. 1 OB, I don't like it, she doesn't need a prong, she yelps when you tap the line... I can picture a handler aggression moment with Lÿka if I use a prong on her... I have no doubt that she'll get pissed off if I continue pronging her and get mean about it. And I also tried it for 1 bitework session. My trainer wanted to try it for 2 reasons... first, I don't have my harness for Lÿka yet n she's exhausting herself on a flat collar to the point where she's hacking n coughing n choking, the prong keeps her a little more in check n not wasting all her energy in the heat. I hate this use of the prong!!!! Then the other reason was to teach her to "deal with it", and that when she's older it'll translate to aggression. But I don't really care for prong during bitework for her regardless of any reason, she doesn't need it n I don't wanna listen to her yelp everytime I have to pop the leash.


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## Tim Martens

mike,

i used to get pissed off at my first dog because of his whiney bark. once he got a couple of street bites, i started to care less and less about the bark. most people who like to classify drives based on certain characteristics (high pitch bark=prey, shallow bite=defense, etc) would say that cujo is displaying prey characteristics. i really don't care about that stuff anymore. all i care about is whether the dog will bite for real. if you don't think cujo would bite for real, then work on that. trying to fight genetics can be a big headache. if he wants to bark with a high pitch, so what. i saw an episode of cops where a dog had one of the highest pitch barks i ever heard. i don't think the bad guy whose leg he chewed thought he was any lesser of a dog for it...


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## Sarah Hall

I agree, Tim. People like dogs that sound "tough" but believe me, if I was being barked at by Cujo, no matter what his bark actually sounded like, I'm not going to go "ah, stupid prey dog". I just keep remembering in my mind the time he came off a bite on a jacket and decided to go for the "juicier" part of the decoy :twisted: :lol:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I compare his behavior to the following situation... you're a kid in the playground n you're not much of a fighter but you take karate lessons n you're pretty good in class with people who aren't really trying to hurt you. One day the school bully comes up to you and grabs your baseball cap n ties you to a tree (ha)... he keeps taunting you with it n you're kinda like "wah wah come gimme back my cap you meanie poopie head!". When the bully smacks you on the face with the cap, suddenly your demeanor goes from "wah wah wah gimme the damn hat" to "GET THE F OFF ME!!" for a split second out of reaction, all of a sudden you sound mean, but then you revert back to wah wah wah gimme the hat. Now, in a way it's prey because you want something n someones holding it back from you taunting, but at the same time you've got this big bully who you know will hit you and fight you if you get close so you're a little defensive n want to fight but you're not quite sure about the situation so you keep a safe distance waiting to strike. A hard dog will just be all out "GIMME THE DAMN HAT YOU LIL PUNK!" even if they're in "prey", but the unsure temprement results in a more "hey c'mon dude please gimme the hat, come on, bring it over here, I would come get it but I'm not sure if I can take you on". Get what I'm saying? I don't care much about the sound of his bark so much as the behavior that goes along with it. If you let a dog practice unsure behaviors then its hard to break, and that's been a problem with his foundation training too. He went thru a period recently of being skittish around people, dunno why, he just got kinda stupid. I didn't know how to deal with it so I talked to my trainer about it. I put him on a choker, not the metal ones but like a "dominant dog collar" n took him out everywhere to socialize with people, n anytime he acted submissive or stupid, I'd calmly lift him up and stop him from practicing submissive behaviors, if he sat down I wouldn't let him hang his head, if he laid down I'd make him sit or stand, if he tried to stand behind me I'd pull him forward, if his tail was stiff I'd wag it for him at the base to loosen up his tension, a week later he was back to normal and not acting stupid anymore. I see the same principal in bitework, giving him a high intensity workout where he's not allowed to act like a sissy means he's practicing confident behavior and understanding "hey, when I act like a sissy it hurts n the decoy is an ass to me, but if I'm confident and stand my ground I kick his ass".


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## Andres Martin

Mike,

Why would you use the a tool to excite/aggravate/elevate the temperament...and the same tool to correct? Do you think that the dog will differentiate the feeling of prongs in correction by the handler from aggravation by the decoy? From experience I can tell you that if you use prongs to ellicit aggression towards a decoy, and prongs to correct your dog...you may find aggression OR submission, when you don't want it.

If you use prongs to restrain Lyka, so she doesn't tire out on a harness...I would not do this, (imho). She has ample drive, ample willingness to bite, genetic full mouth and hard grip (most likely). At this stage of the game give her few bites...period. The whole bite session should not last longer than a couple of minutes. I would not want ANYTHING to make her feel bad about bitework after I've cued her to bite...

PLUS...YOU WANT HER TO KNOW SHE CAN GO *FORWARD*.

Regarding the use of the prongs in obedience with Lyka, if you see handler aggression in the future...because she might get pissed off...YOU WILL GET HANDLER AGGRESSION IN THE FUTURE...but it won't be because of a tool. It will be due to being a bit scared of correcting her, of diminishing her drive, of diluting your bond...and due to her looking at you as a fun giver, not a clear leader.

Furthermore, if Lyka yelps with a prong...she's too sensitive and sharp. If you're interested in keeping the sharp side of the equation, that's fine...but the sensitive part you should eliminate.

Some argue that it's better to have a dog that grows up thinking he's king $#!+, that you then have to correct hard. But if you believe a dog can't help himself but to become conditioned, then you must start repeating the behaviors you want as an adult, from puppuyhood...obviously at puppy levels. In a good working pup, you should be looking for a super bond, impeccable respect, and acceptable obedience. In other words, your dog must forgive you quickly for any pain that comes from you. Your pup must want to please itself by pleasing you...and by accomplishing things WITH you.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

> If you use prongs to restrain Lÿka, so she doesn't tire out on a harness...I would not do this, (imho). She has ample drive, ample willingness to bite, genetic full mouth and hard grip (most likely). At this stage of the game give her few bites...period. The whole bite session should not last longer than a couple of minutes. I would not want ANYTHING to make her feel bad about bitework after I've cued her to bite...
> 
> PLUS...YOU WANT HER TO KNOW SHE CAN GO *FORWARD*.


I agree absolutely 100% with this, and that's the way I thought about it myself, I want a dog to practice forward behavior, but I figured I'd try my trainers method, I didn't like it and went back to the collar. The reason she chokes herself is because she's not on a harness, she's small n chewed her nylon one to pieces when I left it on her for 5 minutes :lol: So I am waiting on a custom made leather harness by a local lady that makes them. When she's on a harness I don't see a problem with having to conserve energy, but she literally chokes herself on a flat collar. I actually had to custom make a wide flat collar for her because nobody makes anything bigger than a tiny thin puppy collar in her neck size.



> Furthermore, if Lÿka yelps with a prong...she's too sensitive and sharp. If you're interested in keeping the sharp side of the equation, that's fine...but the sensitive part you should eliminate.


How would you suggest eliminating the sensitivity? Sharpness I don't mind.



> In a good working pup, you should be looking for a super bond, impeccable respect, and acceptable obedience.


The bond is there, and her obedience is nice, food, no food, toy, no toy, doesn't matter, I wish all dogs were as easy to train in OB as she has been, I tell her sit and she sits, I tell her down and she downs, if only Cujo listened even 1/4 as good as she does :lol:



> In other words, your dog must forgive you quickly for any pain that comes from you.


Is there any way you suggest to guide the dog to forgiveness if they are a grudge holding dog?


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## Andres Martin

> How would you suggest eliminating the sensitivity?


Man-Handle her a bunch. DO NOT BE TENTATIVE. Groom her and correct squirmishness. Put the prongs on her for everything (prong collar = best, best training tool). ***I'm not saying eliminate rewards. You already started this and IT WORKS.*** Stress in obedience to stabilize her. Scary obstacles and situations...GRADUALLY. Be like her comfort zone. Be FIRM, unyielding, fair. Don't worry...YOU WILL NOT DECREASE HER DRIVE. You'd have to beat the $#!+ out of her a bunch to decrease her drive. Once or twice...for the right reasons...is actually a good thing.

As far as yelping with the PC, she'll desensitize to it in a heartbeat...if you use it.

TEACH HER TO CLIMB A LADDER...!!! This will also teach you a bunch of VERY INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT YOU AND YOUR DOG.



> Is there any way you suggest to guide the dog to forgiveness if they are a grudge holding dog?


Guide is the right word, IMO. Correct her so she desists in continuing the undesired behavior, and praise her when she yields. End on positives after corrections...even if you have to do stuff you "already had in the bag".


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## Bob Scott

IMHO I don't think a dog holds a grudge. I just think they respond to however they are handled. If they can get away with being a butt head they will. 
As most here know, I'm a total motivational trainer. That means no corrections on the field for not understanding training. No pressure/corrections from the handler to increase aggression.
Bad manners is an altogether different matter. 
Although my GSD is very handler soft, he did challenge me once when he was about 2yrs old.  When it was over he probably though he tried to bite god in the chest instead of the nice old granpa that I am. Never happened again!


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## Tim Martens

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I compare his behavior to the following situation... you're a kid in the playground n you're not much of a fighter but you take karate lessons n you're pretty good in class with people who aren't really trying to hurt you. One day the school bully comes up to you and grabs your baseball cap n ties you to a tree (ha)... he keeps taunting you with it n you're kinda like "wah wah come gimme back my cap you meanie poopie head!". When the bully smacks you on the face with the cap, suddenly your demeanor goes from "wah wah wah gimme the damn hat" to "GET THE F OFF ME!!" for a split second out of reaction, all of a sudden you sound mean, but then you revert back to wah wah wah gimme the hat. Now, in a way it's prey because you want something n someones holding it back from you taunting, but at the same time you've got this big bully who you know will hit you and fight you if you get close so you're a little defensive n want to fight but you're not quite sure about the situation so you keep a safe distance waiting to strike. A hard dog will just be all out "GIMME THE DAMN HAT YOU LIL PUNK!" even if they're in "prey", but the unsure temprement results in a more "hey c'mon dude please gimme the hat, come on, bring it over here, I would come get it but I'm not sure if I can take you on". Get what I'm saying?


actually, no i don't. i have NO IDEA WHAT THAT PLAYGROUND ANALOGY HAS TO DO WITH DOG TRAINING. LOL. i'm just bustin your ballz mike. haha.

that's fine mike. like i said, if there are other undesirable behaviors that go with the bark, then by all means work to correct it. i was just saying that trying to correct a bark is a bit tedious and unnecessary...


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Yeah understood, I know a dog that barks like he's singing, I think it's cool as hell but they are trying to get the dog to either bark normally or not make any noise.. it's a pointless exercise IMO but it's not my dog :lol:


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