# Cleo Van Leeuwen



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koaE8-GnS5o


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Today she was bred for the first time to Wibo.:-({|=

Dick


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

thanks for posting


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

kristin tresidder said:


> thanks for posting


thanks for posting


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Today she was bred for the first time to Wibo.:-({|=
> 
> Dick


Those should be nice!


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Those should be nice!


Good chance they mature late...:mrgreen:


----------



## Al Bincarousky (Feb 14, 2009)

love what i see!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Good chance they mature late...

I would love to have taken video of every dog that people OVER HERE have said that matured late, and apparently they meant twenty years too late.

Take a look at the run around pedigrees that dogs have over here. It is not the same. 

Pain in my ass. I hope the baby wakes you twice tonight, once for feeding and once for stinky diapers. =D>=D>=D>=D>

I am telling you, people scam real hard over here. You have been breeding really closely, picking the hard ones, and continuing the line. Not so over here, except in the game bred pits, and Don Turnipseed. Other than that, I don't know anyone who does this on purpose, and for years. They will read this, and use it to sell their high threshold shitters.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Good chance they mature late...
> 
> I would love to have taken video of every dog that people OVER HERE have said that matured late, and apparently they meant twenty years too late.
> 
> ...


Hahahahaha, tnx for the nice "night-wishes"......;-)

I understand what you mean. "Mature late" can also be used as an excuse for a dog that is not going to do it at all. 

But I for example did not bite with my young dog Bassie (Wibo x Bemta, a Litter-sister of Spike) at all until 10 months old. I had, looking at him as a pup, no doubt for one second he was not going to do it. I was convinced he would be OK. Also. because starting "late" he is not biting "prey" but really whats to "kill"the guy. No playful game for him..;-).

Dick


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is what we lack here big time are breeders that know their lines as well as you do. Look at how many generations of dogmen live in your household. We simply do not have that in the working dogs. We have it in coondogs, bird dogs, and game bred pits, but overall, it is not even close to the same with the working dogs.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

There are no doubt a few people on this forum who remember the "Late Maturing" excuse that was trotted out about a whole heap of crap no drive DDR GSD's a number of years ago. Turns out what they meant was you should wait till they are three and then start working them in defence. 
So when you say late maturing some people might cold sweats remembering this.

So Dick, is it just the way you raise your dogs, that you don't really push the drive early, or is it that your lines tend not to show much drive at a young age so you wait for them to mature before the drive comes out? By hearing your comments about dogs being asleep at the stake at 10 months it comes across as the later.
As you know we did a breeding with our Boy and a female from your breeding (Wibo x Grietje). This breeding was linebred on Rocky and Rambo. The whole litter is what I would call early maturing, and all of them showing huge amounts of drive. The drive that they show is not just play, there is already an element of seriousness about them. Obvioulsy Boy brings in other lines such as Arno and Rex, so this might explain some differences. These pups are also rock solid in nerves, dont care about anything.
Your original comments are so different to what we have experienced, so I just wondering if I have missunderstood you.
Oh yeah, and thanks for the video Tim. I really do like the look of Cleo. Interesting bloodline as well.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

@ Christopher: If I would have wanted it, Bassie and his sister Pebbles (Wibo x Benta a litter mate of my Spike, which are a result of father/daughter from RockyxNika) could also be biting "serious" in high drive at an early age. But way should I??? Where does it lead to? How can I use that? I will only make it difficult for myself in the process of learning, later on. If a dog is OK, he will also be OK at 10 months old.
And then, when a dog is only good because he is made crazy as a young dog, it is not my kind of dog. The dog should not be "made", but he should have it naturally. 

Dick


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> @ Christopher: If I would have wanted it, Bassie and his sister Pebbles (Wibo x Benta a litter mate of my Spike, which are a result of father/daughter from RockyxNika) could also be biting "serious" in high drive at an early age. But way should I??? Where does it lead to? How can I use that? I will only make it difficult for myself in the process of learning, later on. If a dog is OK, he will also be OK at 10 months old.
> And then, when a dog is only good because he is made crazy as a young dog, it is not my kind of dog. The dog should not be "made", but he should have it naturally.
> 
> Dick


Thanks for your reply. I dont have an issue with how you raise your dogs whatsoever, and you obviously have success using the system that you do. I guess I am looking to see what elements of this "late maturing" is genetic v's your choice to let them mature and wait later. 
If the dog is genetically good then either using his drive at a young age or not isnt gonna change that either way. I dont think you make a shit dog good by trying to make him crazy. 
I guess if you know what your looking at with puppies then it doesnt matter either way, slow or quick. 
I like to use the drive the pups have to expose them to new things. Bite the suit, bite the sleeve, bite the tug, bite indoors, bite in slippery floors, bite with noises etc. But I dont really see this as "training", as im always looking at how they react to everything the first time they see it, im seeing exactly how their genetics are and what weird things he may do or not do. I cannot see a negative to that. 
I am also thinking if you do what you do also to try and avoid equipment fixation?


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Dick told me there are 100's of dogs that can be made to bite out of craziness (prey drive). He explained how these dogs also become so crazy that they sometimes don't even know what they are going through(meaning helpers) but one day if a strong helper makes them aware they will never be the same dog running down the field. Every time after that they will begin to realize more (He also said that day may never come for some dogs). I have noticed that this puppy is very aware and notices things and takes it in and does not act like a spaze for no reason but he will if provoked. Which is how Dick explained the dog to me.
With that said I took out a puppy sleeve and back tied him and rattled a stick he went for it like any malinois I have seen! Huge grips too  Sorry Dick my curiosity got the best of me. 
But the other thing that Dick said to go along with my rambling was the word "INTENT". What is the intent behind the bite. 
Puppies just don't have the intent to kill a 200 pound person and especially there owner so he's biting with a different intent. I understand Dick's way of doing things but it takes patients and really knowing the dogs and what you want them for. For me I don't need my dog for Police work like he does and I certaintly don't need a Wibo LOL. Dick likes em REAL!

Sorry if I messed some of that up r distorted it into my own thoughts Dick!


----------



## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

"But the other thing that Dick said to go along with my rambling was the word "INTENT". What is the intent behind the bite." 

And there you have it.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

charles guyer said:


> "but the other thing that dick said to go along with my rambling was the word "intent". What is the intent behind the bite."
> 
> and there you have it.



bingo!


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Dick told me there are 100's of dogs that can be made to bite out of craziness (prey drive). He explained how these dogs also become so crazy that they sometimes don't even know what they are going through(meaning helpers) but one day if a strong helper makes them aware they will never be the same dog running down the field. Every time after that they will begin to realize more (He also said that day may never come for some dogs). I have noticed that this puppy is very aware and notices things and takes it in and does not act like a spaze for no reason but he will if provoked. Which is how Dick explained the dog to me.
> With that said I took out a puppy sleeve and back tied him and rattled a stick he went for it like any malinois I have seen! Huge grips too  Sorry Dick my curiosity got the best of me.
> But the other thing that Dick said to go along with my rambling was the word "INTENT". What is the intent behind the bite.
> Puppies just don't have the intent to kill a 200 pound person and especially there owner so he's biting with a different intent. I understand Dick's way of doing things but it takes patients and really knowing the dogs and what you want them for. For me I don't need my dog for Police work like he does and I certaintly don't need a Wibo LOL. Dick likes em REAL!
> ...


Tnx. Tim:wink:. You certainly did not mess up anything. You explained very well.=D>

Dick


----------

