# Prong vs E



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Im interested to know has anyone found a difference in the bond or working relationship in using a E collar over a prong which requires physical effort if so can you describe what you see e.g a happier dog or a dog not showing submissive signs in its work etc


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Each is an important tool for my training. The "happiness" factor in a dog has a lot to do with the training and not necessarily the tool one uses. The ecollar seems to make it less "personal"-it can be easy to get angry and displace that ionto the pinch correction. The ecollar allows someone else to stim the dog when necessary and the communication is crystal clear hopefully. Irarely need high level for either tool except during protection work. I use the ecollar mostly during bitework (schH) The bottom line is that the dog knows why he is getting a snap of the prong or a stim of the collar and having it balanced with the reward. The dog needs to know how to get it right. A good relationship is based on fairness and good communication with the dog irregardless of the tool. IMO


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Each is an important tool for my training. The "happiness" factor in a dog has a lot to do with the training and not necessarily the tool one uses. The ecollar seems to make it less "personal"-it can be easy to get angry and displace that ionto the pinch correction. The ecollar allows someone else to stim the dog when necessary and the communication is crystal clear hopefully. Irarely need high level for either tool except during protection work. I use the ecollar mostly during bitework (schH) The bottom line is that the dog knows why he is getting a snap of the prong or a stim of the collar and having it balanced with the reward. The dog needs to know how to get it right. A good relationship is based on fairness and good communication with the dog irregardless of the tool. IMO



So I guess my question is with the E-collar. You say it makes less personal. And forgive me if I am reading this wrong. but as in personal, you mean the dog is not associating that the correction is coming from you? And if that is the case... The benefit is that the dog will not associate the correction with the handler and not cause any damage to the relationship?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Nice explanation sarah!! Thanks... James i dont really buy the whole thing about the dog not knowing the corrections doesnt come from me with the E as all my dogs do..or work it out fast they arent silly.

And when i said physical i meant in the action of using the prong.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

No James..... the Dog (if conditioned properly) knows _exactly_ where stim comes from.

My Mali knows. He's so sure I'm a wizard that generally all I need to do is put my hand on my chest and give him his negative marker ('no') and he corrects himself. When he's got the collar on the remote hangs around my neck and on my chest. He's convinced I have an implant or something all I have to do is touch my chest :roll:


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I had better results with the E vs prong with my corso in certain situations. The prong would stimulate him more or had less of the desired effect to shut down the behavior I was trying to stop, especially if I had to give a hard correction. I can't tell you for sure if it was the difference in sensation on his neck but I know for sure I had to get very animated to deliver that correction while I could remain relatively calm and not flail my arms so much to just press a button for the E. I'm sure that made a big difference.

Had nothing to do with the correction being less personal, he knew exactly where it was coming from and I made sure of that when introducing the collar to him. I want my dog to think I have the power of god in my finger and voice to touch him at any time, I don't want him believing in some mystical powers from the environment hoping that will save a bond. The consequences I dish out to my dog are a part of our relationship and are my responsibility.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

You can also use the prong and E to mark a reward. Dogs trained this way do not associate the stim from either device as a negative only correction but rather perk up and pay attention as a reward could be coming. Way to condition this is to low level stim at the release command, ie, dog does what you want (depending on what you are training), you give the release command and reward pairing the release command with the stim.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think that the ecollar IS less personal in a sense that it is not seen as a personal physical interaction between dog and handler, and much less likely to cause physical fight, response, or resistance from the dog, as a leash and collar correction might.

the handler is more removed from the correction itself. I have had dogs try toeat me for correcting them on a leash/long line and collar, but never with an ecollar correction, not saying that doesnt happen, but I never had it happen..

I think that it depends on the use of the collar as well, if the dog knows that the correction is coming from the handler. there are certainly ways you can do certain things in which the dog will not know it is from you, if used for corrections for extinction of certain things. I think the more you use it, the dog is sooner to figure it out though, even if you are not making it obvious to them.

I look at it like this...say your job would dock your pay $5.00 for making certain errors, or doing certain things, I think there would be a big difference if your boss, instead of docking your pay on your check, came to your desk, and took $5.00 out of your wallet everytime it occurred.. they are essentially the same thing, but one would be viewed as much more personal I think by most people.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

We have definitely seen a difference in our male Mal. He's a pretty self-satisfying dog during protection work. He works pretty much only to please himself and to hell w/ everybody else. Marta's seen him work, she can attest.

We started w/ prong, as that is what worked w/ my female. Problem is that my female, is exactly the opposite to him, and can probably be corrected w/ dental floss.

We were having to give such forceful prong corrections that it actually started to concern us for a number of reasons. 1. injury to him; 2. fearing us; 3. my wife wasn't strong enough to give what he needed; 4. it started becoming personal (i.e. me losing emotional control and it becoming punitive) which I obviously did not like. 

When we got the e-collar(s) - we've gone through 3 (they weren't strong enough) and have now settled on a double TT unit - although still getting to -ve correction, it was much less personal and we were able to give clearer instructions and react much calmer and more appropriately to the -ve behaviours.

Therefore, regardless of what he thinks about it, the bond is better for US. Hammering away on a prong collar tends to suck the fun out of training. And although we're both results oriented people, we do this for fun to escape our professional lives.

In addition, the results we've seen from the e-collar and the understanding he's developed, whether the result of outing and coming back on the horn going off or the whistle blowing is an association he sees as -ve (i.e. I have to get back to her or I'm going to get zapped) or +ve (i.e. get back to her so I can get sent for another bite) is something we'd have to ask him


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

i have a dog here atm that i've been doing a lot of low-level E work with... we started using it when we were trying to teach the emergency cease (in our case platz), and it was clear the poor dog had been cranked severely by a previous handler... he would blow me off, hit the end of the long line, and then crumble and immediately start returning to me with his ears back and tail not quite between his legs but almost there... 

if i ran the line through my hands so as to bring him to a gentler stop, as soon as i pulled him up and said platz he'd hit the deck immediately... but the second he thought i wasn't holding the line he'd blow me off again, and then freak out again... when he did get a reward bite he wasn't coming in very hard, wasn't biting very full, and would often drop off the sleeve again... it didn't matter whether we were using a dead-ringed prong, a flat collar, or a harness... 

after introducing him to the E, and making it clear that i could still reach out and touch him regardless of if he had a leash on, or how far away he was, he's learnt the cease very quickly, and his intensity when sent for his bite has increased 100 fold... he hits hard, bites much fuller (he'll probably never have a KNPV-style full bite, but meh), and hasn't come off the sleeve for months... 

i still use a static prong (have wrapped up the 'action' of it and it no longer constricts) on him at work for when we are amongst a lot of people, as i often need a free hand and don't have time to think about an e-collar... i hang onto it with 2 fingers and i know he is right there next to me, but i can tell if he is sitting or standing, i can tell which way he is looking, i know if he is growling, etc etc, without even needing to look at him... 

this is just my experience with one dog... i love both tools for different situations but i honestly think a well-used (as in, handler knows what they are doing) E collar at low levels is a much more versatile tool, often removes the conflict from situations, and makes it easier for the handler to keep calmer and therefore not transfer stress or anger to the dog...


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Jay and Ryan.... 2 great stories and examples of e-collar work.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So whatever happened tot he FLAT collar and pack leadership?

IMO both are tools of the trade, both can ruin a dog, both can be used w/o damaging the "happiness" of the K-9.

As a pack leader, why would anyone want to go with the prong or e-collar first...other than saving time? Build the bond, mark the behavior and reward the efforts. No different than teaching people...:-k


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Good point Howard!

The foundation for my training my two dogs is solidly built as you stated. Never has use of these tools been used until the foundational relationship and trust has been built. I have not used ecollar or prong in the "teaching" phase. Without that foundation use of the prong or ecollar is dubious at best, unfair and cruel at its worse. If I were to reach for those tools first I will have missed the most crucial and respectful basis for the relationship with my dog and training would be no fun at all for the both of us....and at the end of the day, it is the fun working my dog that keeps me in the game.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

what she said. 

I use the prong and stim when I know that he knows, I know that he's knows, I know what he's supposed to be doing. I don't ever use it in teaching. In the distraction phase? Maybe depending on what it is. 

However, I tell you to down, and I KNOW you heard me and I know you know how and you stare at me..... you get the 'nic'.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So whatever happened tot he FLAT collar and pack leadership?
> 
> IMO both are tools of the trade, both can ruin a dog, both can be used w/o damaging the "happiness" of the K-9.
> 
> As a pack leader, why would anyone want to go with the prong or e-collar first...other than saving time? Build the bond, mark the behavior and reward the efforts. No different than teaching people...:-k



The question was regarding the reaction to E vs prong, nothing was said suggesting those were the first two things one would put on an 8wk old pup and the only tools used in training.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Im interested to know has anyone found a difference in the bond or working relationship in using a E collar over a prong which requires physical effort if so can you describe what you see e.g a happier dog or a dog not showing submissive signs in its work etc


 
I wish I could, but I can't. I am a person that has to have "hands on" contact with my dog. I have to see "first hand" how he reacts to a slight pain, if ever.

I like to go on to the training field without electronic gadgets in my hand. I would never condemn them. they would probably have been better for my current dog?

The sharpened prong worked well for my Briard - all I had was the tug for reward, tucked into my rear waistband. So I could heel with my dog, praise when ok and afterwards, leave off the prong.

OK, there were a few issues in protection and running the hides but this was solved by taking him out, short but *very precise* obedience and then sending him to the first hide, sometimes close to the hide, and when certain, further away.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> I think that the ecollar IS less personal in a sense that it is not seen as a personal physical interaction between dog and handler, and much less likely to cause physical fight, response, or resistance from the dog, as a leash and collar correction might.
> 
> the handler is more removed from the correction itself. I have had dogs try toeat me for correcting them on a leash/long line and collar, but never with an ecollar correction, not saying that doesnt happen, but I never had it happen..
> 
> ...


I think this is true. I haven't bled from correcting from an ecollar. When trying to get my possessive bitch to out, I had a few quick bites after using a pinch collar, even just doing enough to get her to out. That is less personal, I guess


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> The question was regarding the reaction to E vs prong, nothing was said suggesting those were the first two things one would put on an 8wk old pup and the only tools used in training.


+1


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I wish I could, but I can't. I am a person that has to have "hands on" contact with my dog. I have to see "first hand" how he reacts to a slight pain, if ever.
> 
> I like to go on to the training field without electronic gadgets in my hand. I would never condemn them. they would probably have been better for my current dog?
> 
> ...


I like that Gillian because i have always been a bit hands on too as i have wanted the dog to know its me who was unhappy and to do the right thing but in recent years toying/training with the E i have had great success with very little stress to me or the dog..but even now i still prefer the prong especially for heeling..


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

IF you are working closely with your dog, and i don't mean "physically" close, AND you are using well understood markers and verbals, AND you have properly conditioned your dog to the Ecollar, i absolutely think the dog knows the collar corrections are coming from YOU the handler, and not from the environment or "somewhere else". which makes it a very "personal" tool imo

if you are simply using it to break bad behaviors, mostly staying out of the picture and setting the dog up so you can correct it, it may still work, but who knows what the dog might associate the collar correction with ? i have used them for this also, but on very rare occasions. and imo this is how an Ecollar is used by many people. harder to do this with a prong 

of course, neither of these opinions have much to do with the original question 
.... so, as far as bonding affected by either collar :

from my P.O.V.
i see more dogs who come to me wearing a prong as a daily wear collar than those wearing an Ecollar most of the time
... in either case, i always have the owner take it off after a few mins and handle their dog on a flat collar only

- dogs who wear a prong almost always show less of a difference in their basic temperament and response to commands as compared with dogs who wear an Ecollar most of the time. of course i don't know how honest the owners are being either 
- most of the prong wearers appear to use it because the dog is constantly pulling rather than as a way of getting more control with less lead pressure, and when their dog is put back on a flat collar, the pulling is actually about the same
- dogs who wear the Ecollar most of the time seem to be a little "flatter" and it seems the dog is more aware it is on, because when they take it off, the dog almost always goes up in drive
- and regardless of which collar they are using, i don't require the owner to give a hard correction with either type just so i can see how their dog reacts

what i am saying is unless you observe the dog/handler in all "modes", it's hard to tell ... at least that's the way it is for me, and you must keep in mind i'm working with people who have problems 

so to me, all these observations DO tell me something about the "bond" with the owner and their dog, even tho it may seem irrelevant to others on this list and maybe not what the Q was trying to find out


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Well said Rick,the only thing i comment on is that i dont see my dogs go flat when i put e collar on as they only get it on when we work so its excitement to get going...maybe because im fair with it as well and not heavy handed...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Well said Rick,the only thing i comment on is that i dont see my dogs go flat when i put e collar on as they only get it on when we work so its excitement to get going...maybe because im fair with it as well and not heavy handed...


I'm not to sure how to understand this Brad.

With the prong (at first, sharpened, and without chain, i.e. the dog feels it, even if not disturbed by it, we put it on at the club grounds.

I like Ronny van den Bergh's version, that the chain is left between the prongs. We eliminated the chain so that the dog would obviously had felt it on the way to the club. With us it was 10-15 minutes, no big deal but rônny's version is better.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "i dont see my dogs go flat when i put e collar on as they only get it on when we work so its excitement to get going...maybe because im fair with it as well and not heavy handed..."

...good ... that's the way it should be !

i forgot to mention that i work with a lot of Navy families where the husband or wife has to deploy for a few months at a time and the "primary" dog handler shifts from one to the other, and that is often why diff collars get used ... 
- ime, it is rare that all family members handle their dogs exactly the same way, and dogs often react just like kids do when the "primary" gets changed. then the "primary" comes back and expects the to react just like it did before they left for a few months


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So whatever happened tot he FLAT collar and pack leadership?
> 
> IMO both are tools of the trade, both can ruin a dog, both can be used w/o damaging the "happiness" of the K-9.
> 
> As a pack leader, why would anyone want to go with the prong or e-collar first...other than saving time? Build the bond, mark the behavior and reward the efforts. No different than teaching people...:-k


I guess no one would "want to go with the prong or e-collar first".

It is not a case of saving time - why is it opponents like to think this?

There comes a time when the pup finds everything else interesting, even more than that he has learned, i.e. he knows what he should do but doesn't want to do it.

This is a time when a prong or e-collar can correct him without stress or pain.

I am heartily sick of handlers trying to suggest that the prong or e-collar is an instrument to shorten the process.

Most of us on here are interested in concrete results - not super quick forumulas#-o


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I look at it like this...say your job would dock your pay $5.00 for making certain errors, or doing certain things, I think there would be a big difference if your boss, instead of docking your pay on your check, came to your desk, and took $5.00 out of your wallet everytime it occurred.. they are essentially the same thing, but one would be viewed as much more personal I think by most people.


Which way do you think would make you stop making these certain errors faster?
I feel my boss taking the money from my wallet everytime I made a mistake would make me remember to do the correct work much faster.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

How quick is the E-Collar vs the Prong correction when heeling with a dog, obedience or protection?


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

it is not VS. Neither is better or worse. Different situations would need different tools.
Like asking if a hammer is better than a drill.
In the past, one had to use the pinch. NOW, we can use the pinch and the E to manage and get alot more finess in the work.

But a previous poster made the most important point.
If your dog cringes and does not like the e collar put on.........YOU did something wrong. 
The dog should look happy and excited to have it on. Better yet, indifferent, as we want other cues to tell the dog that the e collar is on.....not the e collar itself. Pavlovian connection. This way, the dog always thinks the collar is on. 
Big field.........e collar on. ALWAYS.
Also, there is level 1,2, 2 1/2, and 3 on your training with e collar. you must identify where you are so you can adjust accordingly. On 3 you hardly ever correct. This is a secured dog....etc....On level 1, it is on almost all the time where the the learns to control the stim.

LOL it is harder than it sounds.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I am heartily sick of handlers trying to suggest that the prong or e-collar is an instrument to shorten the process.


It only illustrates their lack of understanding of the ecollar.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm not to sure how to understand this Brad.
> 
> With the prong (at first, sharpened, and without chain, i.e. the dog feels it, even if not disturbed by it, we put it on at the club grounds.
> 
> I like Ronny van den Bergh's version, that the chain is left between the prongs. We eliminated the chain so that the dog would obviously had felt it on the way to the club. With us it was 10-15 minutes, no big deal but rônny's version is better.


Gillian i just meant my dogs know what it is but dont see it as an adversive and go flat on me....


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> How quick is the E-Collar vs the Prong correction when heeling with a dog, obedience or protection?


this depends entirely on the handler and their timing... 

but with the technology we have these days, if your collar is in range and has good contact the stim should start the instant you press the button...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Which way do you think would make you stop making these certain errors faster?
> I feel my boss taking the money from my wallet everytime I made a mistake would make me remember to do the correct work much faster.



I imagine it would, but I also imagine I would not hand over my wallet to most of my bosses that I have had very willingly, nor would some other people, sure some great bosses could get it from me, and some other more sheepish people might hand it over evertime, just because it is the boss asking for it, or taking it from them.

If the boss persisted in trying to take it from me, and I wasnt co-operating, I imagine there might be more personal conflict than if the company just dinged my paycheck. And if I fought him, or he had to fight me to get it from me, most likely I would not be working there long, by my choice or the bosses, even though I might have been a good worker in the big scope, I just might not get behind that policy, and co-operate as easily as I would with the dinging of the paycheck.

it was an analogy. I see your point, I do...but sometimes, with some handlers (bosses), and some dogs (workers),a little less direct approach works better.

Kinda like taxes,,, for most people they get them taken out of the check automatically, makes it easier to swallow, and most people even get refunds, that make them feel better about it.

can you imagine how well it would be received by the working masses, if they did not take out any taxes for anyone anymore, and the tax collectors came knocking on everyones doors to collect on April 15th? there is a reason that they do not do this...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Gillian i just meant my dogs know what it is but dont see it as an adversive and go flat on me....


do they go flat with the prong collar?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> do they go flat with the prong collar?


Nope not at all its not seen as an adversive..but will admit that at the moment the few dogs i have are very driven dogs who come up from a correction anyway so thats got to help but they dont care what i put on em as long as they are able to get out play and work..


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Im interested to know has anyone found a difference in the bond or working relationship in using a E collar over a prong which requires physical effort if so can you describe what you see e.g a happier dog or a dog not showing submissive signs in its work etc


E is much clearer line of communication for my male. He is more biddable and handler softer than my female who works for me because I pay her to do so. The prong used ideally with the male is find and I use it for somethings or when I failed to charge the collar, but the E is crystal clear. I also prefer it as its much easier to mark an instant in time, or a block of time with the E than a prong. I also can only verbally or E correct a dog far away from me. Its also less personal when done properly. I can also positively mark with the collar on vibrate. I also can be perfectly still when delivering E, but not with a prong which at minimum requires more body movement. Verbal corrections are the most stressful for both of my dogs. Emotionally charged verbal corrections can tank a training session

both dogs excitedly rush to don either collar when I present it as they know it means we are doing fun crap.


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