# Puppy keeps biting



## Matthew Criner (Apr 19, 2006)

My 5 month old gsd puppy keeps biting my girlfriend really hard. He will just run upto her and start attacking her (playfully.) I yell NO to him and sometimes he stops, but sometimes he doesn't and when I try to pull him off her he sometimes starts biting me. He also starts biting me really hard out of nowhere when I take him for walks sometimes. How can I get him to stop? I have tried yelling at him and jerking him with the leash, but nothing seems to work. And when my girlfriend yells at him or pushes him away, he thinks she is playing with him and starts doing it harder. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Redirect his biting to a tug toy, and don't push away/ignore when he starts biting hands. Once he enjoys the tug, use it as a reward for obedience.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

You could try the Bitter Apple method described in the articles at www.Leerburg.com (or better yet, get Ed's basic obedience video). I have not tried using Bitter Apple and I am not crazy about the initial steps suggested with it (I.e., soak cotton balls in Bitter Apple and force them into the pup's mouth and hold their mouths shut for a minute or so). I don't like the idea of just doing that out of the middle of nowhere on a pup, but I am a candy ass that way.

I used those yellow bulbs of lemon juice. Palm the lemon juice and when the dog gets gnawing, quickly and silently give them a good shot of lemon juice. Make sure the bulb is well in their mouths--you don't want to get any in their eyes. Once they connect the scent with the lemon juice, you can squirt a few drops on you and others' hands and the dog will leave you alone. Worked very well for my young kids. Same basic idea as the Bitter Apple, I just would rather use lemon juice than Bitter Apple and rather use a reactive negative enforcement than a random, proactive way.

Others may have other ideas. To Lyn's point, redirection makes the most sense to me if you've not tried it yet. I should have stuck with that way longer, I just didn't have a lot of room for error with my small kids and my dog was quite the nibbler.


I would check out the Leerburg articles and videos first if you've not done so, in any case. They tend to present perspectives on about any issue you may have, from collar types to PITA puppy issues. The basic stuff seems to be regarded as more right than wrong for new folks like you and me.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree with redirection. A puppy, just like a child has to learn what it can bite and what it can't. Redirection of the behavior to a favored toy or tug is a good method. I'd be fairly certain that at this age it's nothing more than play and exploration. Puppies like children do a lot of exploring with thier mouths. Sometimes, just taking an object away makes them more curious. Giving them something other to do redirects that behavior.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:My 5 month old gsd puppy keeps biting my girlfriend really hard. He will just run upto her and start attacking her (playfully.) 

Really hard? Try grabbing his neck and shaking the snot out of him. Redirection, I have found is pretty temporary. 5 month is when they first try to figure out who is who. A good face slapping can put the brakes on this behavior as well. It is inappropriate behavior.

However, if you couldn't possibly explain to him that his behavior sucks and has to stop, you could try a flat collar. :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mathew, the redirecting OR the scruff shake both have their own merits if done correctly. A lot has to do with what your goals are with your pup. However, very few people here will use a face slap for ANY type of correcting. That's a great way to create a hand shy dog. With a serious dog and an inexpierienced handler, it could also get you bit. 
Jeff, as a child, I was slapped across the nose with a newspaper for peeing on the floor. I now pee in the waste basket but I've never gotten over that first trauma. It created soooooo much stress and behavoural problems!   :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hand shyness occurs over a period of time. This is an appropriate time, as this aggression is based on rank within the pack.

Of course I am not talking about wacking the dog as hard as you can repeatedly until the dog is unconcious, but in todays world I should have made that clearer. 

ALL my dogs have gotten wacked for biting the snot out of me at one time or the other. None have hand shyness, and to think that they would is crap. If the dog was ever so delicate, he would not be biting her like that. I am going to go ahead and say it will end up OK. Lets face it, most people will take a butt whippin from the dog and not do much about it. A good smackin is needed occasionally. Please look up the meaning of any words that you do not understand, so I can stop typing.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Call me old fashioned, call me old, either would be a relief from what I'm often called. None the less, I dont slap, kick or punch dogs. I don't think there is a need for it. If I'm going to correct a dog for a behavior it's going to be using the leash and choker. A puppy biting the hand is nothing more than exploration, at least the way the original poster described it. Rather than corrections of any sort, I'm first going to try and redirect. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hows that workin out for ya?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

To be honest, I redirect 30% of the time and slap the other 70% because I'm lazy and don't have tugs lying around all the time. I just don't feel comfortable advising people that lest I be labelled a puppy abuser.  Jeff is right, though. This should hardly affect a dog that's hard enough to be biting like that in the first place; unless of course my GSD at the moment just has issues he isn't telling me about. He isn't hand shy. Sometimes I wish he were--he can be such an annoying snot.

Nevertheless, it's good to be able to redirect when you can, since you can turn the pup's energy into something productive.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote:{  Jeff is right though. ]Quote
  My god! You went and done it now! 
IT'S ALIIIIIIVE! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

...what, what did I do?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol: :lol: Don't worry, be happy! :wink: After you've been on for a while it will come to you. :lol: :wink:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Gee, that almost makes me afraid to continue browsing this forum.  :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Gee, that almost makes me afraid to continue browsing this forum.  :lol:


As well you should be.

YOU TOLD JEFF HE WAS RIGHT!

The last time that happened, back in ought five, I think it was,
women screamed and strong men wept.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Is the puppy biting down REALLY HARD? Does he draw blood? When you push him away, does he come at you "stiffer"? Is he self assured in slippery surfaces, with loud noises, rides in a car, water? Is he healthy? Does he like chasing bals? If the answers are yes...you should DEFINITELY re-home the dog. PM me and I will give you my address.


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## Debbie High (Jul 2, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Quote:{  Jeff is right though. ]Quote
> My god! You went and done it now!
> IT'S ALIIIIIIVE! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


Yyyeepp.....could turn into an all out rodeo, including the clowns!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's been awhile since any of mine were puppies but have always done what Lynn said with a sharp "LEAVE IT" or "NO" when they cross the line. No yelling, maybe slightly louder. I try for 75% redirect and 25% other means. When they latch on and won't let go I usually hold their nose leather (making sure I cover their nostrils) just hard enough for it to be uncomfortable. I know, I know but, hey, they hate it and it works, especially, if you spit on your fingers first! When using this "rocket science" technique I use the "out" command. Mind you, my dogs are pets, we are not into sports. Do want good manners though! Mine also seem to know what " you little turd" means!!!! 

Debbie


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Set the puppy up for failure. Put your hand down so that he can bite it. When he does use your fingers and turn his lip inside his mouth and push it against his little puppy teeth. When he hollers you did good. He thinks that he bit his own lip. He figures out that if any part of your hand goes into his mouth, he hurts. He will stop doing it.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

My sport dogs or dogs for work, I don't do this. I redirect.


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## Matthew Criner (Apr 19, 2006)

THanks for all your replies guys.

Andres why the hell would I re-home the dog?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Obviously...because you would be rehoming him TO MY HOUSE!!!

Cheer up. It's Monday.


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## Matthew Criner (Apr 19, 2006)

Haha, I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just saying it to play around.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

All things aside, Matthew, please keep in mind the advice that's being offered here is from people with much more dog experience than either you and me. These people have seen a lot of different situations and are very good at interpreting posture and behavior in the context of drives and dog development. These people who are offering up more physical alternatives to you, simply put, have harder dogs than you or me have that are being raised in a very controlled and aware environment.

Do not rationalize your own actions based on what's being discussed in this thread. To a person, my guess is no one here would advocate you (specifically you) hitting your dog. You, like me, are new. Compulsive actions may potentially set you and your dog up for a situation, as David and Bob allude to, that you cannot handle (i.e., two years from now you cock that hand back and your dog decides it doesn't roll that way anymore and busts you open). Anyone else in this thread besides you and me would know how to handle that kind of situation. We--you and me--do not. So err on the side of caution for now.

The bottom line is, work a lot on redirection, get painfully familiar with stages of puppyhood by reading up on them so you begin to differentiate some of the things which Andreas and others describe, progress to indirect punitive stuff, and then check in with someone you trust as to further steps you might take.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeez man , it's just a puppy and puppies bite, just stick a toy in it's mouth. If it's really that big of a problem you should seek out a good professional that can see you and the dog and help you out. For the first 6 months of my females life we were constantly sticking a kong in her mouth


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just wack the thing, you won't kill it. Thats how I "roll". 
:roll: :roll: 

Woody, how does anyone learn anything without making mistakes? What, all the mods are freaking out because there are a bunch of us out here that don't teach "happy" all the time.

It's crap like you just wrote that makes it seem like we are advocating knocking the skin off the dog. Poor precious. Let me help you out a little. From what he is describing, it is a puppy that is figuring out pack order. That means the little shit is telling your GF to go "F" herself.

So maybe now that you know what the dog is actually doing, you won't go out of your way to train "happy", and just get it over with. It is not that big a deal.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> Jeez man , it's just a puppy and puppies bite, just stick a toy in it's mouth.


Hmmmm...you reap what you sow.

Not everyone is apt, has the timing, the energy, the BALLS to deal with a dominant, high drive dog...IN THE *LONG* TERM.

Are you prepared for dog ownership for the next Twelve to fifteen years? 

If this will be your house dog, teach the pup respect towards you NOW. Whack it. Don't go nuts...just be firm and inequivocal. Regarding your girlfriend, she may not be there tomorrow, so I suggest you keep her away from your dog until you're married. THEN you can fix his problem with her. :lol:

Alternative two is: when your pup is biting you, say, "Ah! Ah!", pick him up, and unceremoniously put him in his crate.

Redirection is cool when your pup is biting your carpet, shoes, furniture, laundry, toilet paper, sanitary towels, and other assorted goodies.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Woody, how does anyone learn anything without making mistakes? What, all the mods are freaking out because there are a bunch of us out here that don't teach "happy" all the time.


Actually, Jeff, we're freaking out because you have switched schtick on us...it used to be  "Jeff saves the world's dogs from idiot owners" and now it seems to have evolved. Sun too hot in Aurora, or is this just a full moon thing you have going?

In any case, Andreas and Jeff, I'm not sure how people like David, Al, etc. advocating redirection in this particular case (i.e., an owner who did not know what a flat collar was asking for help with a nippy pup) rates them as PETA-worthy AKC Ob trainers. You may have already made that assumption about me and my little pet mutt, I wouldn't be so quick to make it about them. 

Anyway, any issues with me and my sissy clicker training methods, feel free to send me a PM. I'll leave you with the words of a great man:



> Can I make it more clear to anyone? People read this stuff, people that do not post or ask questions, they run out and try it. They are the people that hear, or read everything but the common sense part. CLEAN UP THE OUT ON THE TABLE. That is all they will see. Not the experience, just the out part. E-collars the same thing. All they see is someone fixed a dog with one. So enough with the BS. You don't know me, cause I don't let you. I just try to keep people from abusing dogs too badly. Most dog people are dumb as a box of rocks. TRY AND REMEMBER THAT.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Although I agree with Jeff thoughts, is his advice probably not the best for a newbie owner. 

In this case I go along with the redirection advise, so keep tugs, stuffed toys, kongs, bones etc. all over your floor, so you can redirect. If you haven´t done it yet: learn your dog the command NO or something simular.

Do you want your dog as pet or as working dog? Further on different websites you can order dvd´s/video´s/books on a dogs learning process, for example on leerburg. Use such things to learn more about a dogs behavior, learningprocess.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Although I agree with Jeff thoughts, is his advice probably not the best for a newbie owner.
> 
> In this case I go along with the redirection advise, so keep tugs, stuffed toys, kongs, bones etc. all over your floor, so you can redirect. If you haven´t done it yet: learn your dog the command NO or something simular.
> 
> Do you want your dog as pet or as working dog? Further on different websites you can order dvd´s/video´s/books on a dogs learning process, for example on leerburg. Use such things to learn more about a dogs behavior, learningprocess.


Matt, you've mentioned ShcH once or twice, but you don't say 
in your recent posts what your current plans are for your dog. 

Here are a few good basic video ideas for you, which will answer 
all the new-owner questions. (I'm not just assuming that; I've 
watched them and I have given clients one of them -- #302.) 

http://www.leerburg.com/120.htm 

http://www.leerburg.com/117.htm 

http://www.leerburg.com/302.htm 

You might look them over and base your choice(s) on your 
plans for your dog.


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## Debbie High (Jul 2, 2006)

I don't think anyone is advocating abuse here. The bottom line is that you have to be willing to push back as hard as the dog is pushing you. Otherwise a drivey, pushy(displaying dominance) dog will run the show. It is easier to establish ground rules with a puppy than a 2 yr. old that has taken over the house.

When saying no, redirecting, yelling, scruffing, rewarding for good behavior, etc. hasn't worked......a quick slap across the nose isn't going to hurt him. After all, nothing else has worked! Not saying to knock his head off, just an insulting slap. A 5-6 month old that is still acting like a punk when he has been corrected over and over for the same thing needs to be insulted. 

I absolutely believe in and use positive training methods as long as possible with dogs. Found out fairly quickly when I became the proud owner of a pushy Mal that I could lose control in a hurry if I allowed it. 

At any rate Matt, he sounds like a nice pup! :lol: :lol: Have fun!! 



Regards,
Debbie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:...it used to be "Jeff saves the world's dogs from idiot owners" and now it seems to have evolved. Sun too hot in Aurora, or is this just a full moon thing you have going? 

This is something completely different. According to what I have read, this dog is making a point of INSISTING on biting and rough play. This is not a ten week old puppy that doesn't know any better. So if your dog responds to an angry voice, then yes that is it. I am not seeing where the dog is responding.

As far as clicker training, I do use the clicker in certain situations.

As far as the post about table training, this is a typical response from the uninitiated. It has NOTHING to do with inappropriate dominant behavior. 

It has nothing to do with training, this is a age appropriate response as the puppy is trying to figure out his place in the pack. 

I gave a proper response for this behavior, and pointed out that I was not talking about knocking the snot out of him. There is a time and a place for everything. 

I remember this guy from Leerburg, and the insane desire he had to defend a breeder that sold him a sick puppy. Then I saw all the posts about idiot vets, while asking dog trainers for advice. Personally with that info, and what I have seen posted here, I wouldn't give this guy responsibility for a stuffed toy. So there you have it, me saving the dogs from idiot owners. Give the dog away and watch TV instead.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Matthew Criner said:


> My 5 month old gsd puppy keeps biting my girlfriend really hard. He will just run upto her and start attacking her (playfully.) I yell NO to him and sometimes he stops, but sometimes he doesn't and when I try to pull him off her he sometimes starts biting me. He also starts biting me really hard out of nowhere when I take him for walks sometimes. How can I get him to stop? I have tried yelling at him and jerking him with the leash, but nothing seems to work. And when my girlfriend yells at him or pushes him away, he thinks she is playing with him and starts doing it harder. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!


Redirect! I carried spare toys in my pockets until Achlles was at least 7 months old so that I could redirect him if he mouthed or bit. I also used these toys to teach the out command, telling him to out, waiting until he dropped his toy, taking it quickly, praising and shoving a new toy in his mouth. We did that back and forth until he just lost interest. It only took a few days before he got the idea, and at 16 months he outs consistently. Now I'm cruel enough to make him out his own food just to make sure he'll obey that command.

I'm not a fan of correcting a 5 mo. I see them in nthe same frame of mind/developmental stage as a toddler and I wouldn't hit/spank a toddler, so I won't do that to a dog. I only correct when I'm absolutely certain the dog understands not to do something or is wilfully disobeying a command. Otherwise I don't think there's a connection. Now if you were to grab the dog WHILE he's biting and tell him pfui sharply, that would have an impact. I've been known to do that, too :wink:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Stacia,
Redirecting...from oneself to a toy for a dog that is NOT MOUTHY, but is trying to DOMINATE is NOT A GOOD IDEA for a newbie.
I'm quite sure it works well with your partridge, though. :lol:


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Stacia,
> Redirecting...from oneself to a toy for a dog that is NOT MOUTHY, but is trying to DOMINATE is NOT A GOOD IDEA for a newbie.
> I'm quite sure it works well with your partridge, though. :lol:


You're going to have to explain how you get "dominant" from a 5 month old biting? 5 monthy old shepherds are mouthy. They bite everything. If the dog has not been taught that biting his humans are off limits, he's going to do it. To him, humans are other dogs, and that's how dogs play.

BTW, this is how this "newbie" taught her dog not to bite humans...guess it worked for me.

BTW, you leave that partridge alone. He can kick some serious a$$ when he wants to :wink:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> You're going to have to explain how you get "dominant" from a 5 month old biting?


Stacia, you'll need more experience then...because there is a huge difference in body language between a mouthy pup and one that's trying to establish himself.

If you're aware that ethical breeders will frequently ask prospective clients about their intentions with one of their pups, then you can deduce that these breeders have (at 8 weeks) formed an idea regarding the individual dog's characters. And I'm not talking about prey, play or any of that baloney...I'm talking about dominance. Bloodlines...not pedigrees...have a bunch to do with this as well.

If positive reinforcement worked for your dog...then you have a good dog that is also easy, and was simply playful and mouthy. That's great...but you must have heard about dogs that are tougher than that? For those dogs, teaching them to keep their teeth off their "pack members" needs a bit more "encouragement". :roll: 

Regarding the partridge, they make fine fare!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

For a 5 month old pup, any reason not to combine a correction with the redirection? Scruff him, look him in the eyes, bare your teeth, say "no bite!" (or whatever) in a deep low voice, lower him back down, and then praise when he redirects onto a toy with your prompting? In other words, give a firm but fair correction so he's not so terrified that he won't go back and play with the toy in a short time. And give him a time out after putting him back down if he doens't get it right off, but then play with the toy and praise a few minutes later. The one thing I never liked about redirecting in this case without at least a little verbal and/or physical correction (in the case of pet dogs anyways) is that it might seem to the dog that you're rewarding him with a toy after he bites your hands or whatever depending on timing.

Here's another question to file away in my brain in case my fiance gets a pup of his own to train since he *still* wants that Great Dane, btw. :lol: Say I have a pup that's a Schutzhund prospect and I have no aspirations for him to be a personal protection or police service dog. Just for sport just at the club level. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but since I'd be trying to groom his prey drive for toys as a pup and the sleeve would be seen as a toy later on, not the helper's bare or clothed arm, would what I described be horribly detrimental to a sport dog in training as a pup?


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Stacia, you'll need more experience then...because there is a huge difference in body language between a mouthy pup and one that's trying to establish himself.
> 
> If you're aware that ethical breeders will frequently ask prospective clients about their intentions with one of their pups, then you can deduce that these breeders have (at 8 weeks) formed an idea regarding the individual dog's characters. And I'm not talking about prey, play or any of that baloney...I'm talking about dominance. Bloodlines...not pedigrees...have a bunch to do with this as well.
> 
> ...


We're talking about a dog whose lineage very closely resembles that of my dog. These are not lines with social aggression, overt dominance, or other characteristics which would lead me to believe that this puppy is doing anything other than trying to play with his humans.

I do not believe in correcting puppies. I believe correction is only useful once a dog understands what is being asked of him. Would a scruff shake work with this dog? Sure it could. But why not try other avenues first? Why not redirect the dog and see if that works? Train the aus? Try verbally correcting or making biting a human uncomfortable for the dog (i.e. finger down the throat)? Why resort to hitting right off the bat (and I definintely don't advocate hitting a dog for any reason).

I really think you might be attributing intentions to this particular dog that do not exist (dominance/aggression). I really think this is a case of a puppy not knowing any better.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:I'm not a fan of correcting a 5 mo. I see them in nthe same 
frame of mind/developmental stage as a toddler
.............................................................


Obviously still clueless. Maybe he is from the same lines as your 
dog *EDIT*

How about you go learn *EDIT* you are doing, then 
we don't have to listen to *EDIT* the stages of a dogs 
life.

.............................................................
***** Mod note: How about if the attacks on each
other stop?

Then NO ONE has to read them. *******
.............................................................


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> My sport dogs or dogs for work, I don't do this. I redirect.





I have done this when working with people who have young dogs or pups that want to chew on their hands or their kids as play toys. It works very well. 

This does not sound like the same problem though. These pups were playing and acting like puppies with just about everyone.


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

There has not been enough told about this dog. Why is it going after the girl friend, is she afraid of it, is the dog extra bity, is it aggerissive, 
is it a male or female. has it had any training. 

In a natural pack the lead dog would stop unwanted behavior from young pups by at worst a thoat shaking -- the pup gets the message rather fast.

On a very few real aggressive cases (young dogs) that where going to be put down because they had been biting the kennel workers. These where only puppies ! I was asked to look at them. They had been abused. 

The female pup nailed me before I ever got it out of the cage. They where about 3 months old. I took the 2nd pup out first to a room, growling and throwing a fit. When he was let go he played like any other pup but very dominant about to anything he claimed. So when I reached for a toy near him he did a puppie pounce and snuck his baby teeth into the side of mind hand and was not letting go. 

I flipped him up side down grab him around the throat and shook him while looking right in his eyes making as deep a rough as I coudl -- bad dog -- so I sound like I was growling ( kind a). Not only did he let go of my hand as soon as he turned his eyes away and became very calm, I let him up .

He went on to be adopted and turned into a really sweet pet that has never bitten again. Puppies were GSD/Pit mixes his and sadly the shetler workers was never able to get the sister out of the cage safely and she was put down.

It all depends on why this dog is biting :?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Good point, Valerie; there really wasn't a lot to go on. 

But the original thread is a month old, so let's hope the pup has straightenend up and flown right (so to speak).


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## Valerie Oneill (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks Connie didn't realize it was so old. 

Hope the pup is doing better and the owner is too


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