# What Determines a "Good" PPD?



## Patrick Murray

First off, if you don't believe in the concept of a "good" ppd and/or if you don't know shit about ppd's then please stay the hell out of this topic. Thank you in advance. 

What do feel a PPD must be able to do in order to be considered "good"? I suppose we should distinguish if the PPD is being used in a family setting or if it belongs to a loner hiding out in the moutains under the federal witness protection program. I'm more interested in a family companion/ppd dog and what it needs to be able to do in order to be considered a good ppd dog. 

Here are some of my thoughts and please feel free to agree, disagree or expand on them. They are NOT in any particular order of importance. 

1) Be Stable: The dog must NOT bite your kid, your parents or a well-behaving guest in your home. 
2) Be Obedient: The dog must listen and follow the handler's commands and come when called, stay when told, be "easy" when told, etc. 
3) Have Solid Nerves: The dog will need these to satisfy requirement #1. A nervy dog is NOT stable. The dog must not be afraid of loud sounds (thunder, gunshots) or any other irrational fears. 
4) Civil Bitework: The dog must bite and bite hard on a person not wearing any VISIBLE bite equipment. Yea, I know, the dog will still know when it's biting on a hidden sleeve as opposed to real flesh but, still, the dog must demonstrate that it will bite even when no visible bite equipment is present. 
5) Stay in the Fight: The dog must be able to take physical punishment and remain tenaciously in the fight. To me, the LEVEL of punishment that the dog will take and remain in the fight is what determines the courage and character of the PPD dog. 

That's all that comes to mind at the moment. Thanks again for any quality input.


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## Kevin Powell

Patrick, I agree with you that those are definately all necessary qualities present in a good PPD. Some of the qualities you listed are trained into the dog such as obedience where others such as the dogs nerves cannot be trained. So, while I'm not quite sure if you are asking what qualities we should train into our dogs to make them a good PPD, what qualities we should look for genetically in a good PPD, or simply what qualities we would find if we were looking at the perfect PPD I would have to add this: 

1. The dog should be able to independently assess and respond to threats without command in case I am hurt and unable to give the bite command.

2. Not only must the dog be able to bite without the presence of equipment as Patrick mentioned, but it must be able to bite on all surfaces and scenarios. Such as on the tile floor in the kitchen, the slick cement in the garage, or from the back seat of your car. A dog that will only bite on grass or the field that it trains on just won't do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote : 1) Be Stable: The dog must NOT bite your kid, your parents or a well-behaving guest in your home. 
2) Be Obedient: The dog must listen and follow the handler's commands and come when called, stay when told, be "easy" when told, etc. 
3) Have Solid Nerves: The dog will need these to satisfy requirement #1. A nervy dog is NOT stable. The dog must not be afraid of loud sounds (thunder, gunshots) or any other irrational fears. 
4) Civil Bitework: The dog must bite and bite hard on a person not wearing any VISIBLE bite equipment. Yea, I know, the dog will still know when it's biting on a hidden sleeve as opposed to real flesh but, still, the dog must demonstrate that it will bite even when no visible bite equipment is present. 
5) Stay in the Fight: The dog must be able to take physical punishment and remain tenaciously in the fight. To me, the LEVEL of punishment that the dog will take and remain in the fight is what determines the courage and character of the PPD dog. 

That's all that comes to mind at the moment. Thanks again for any quality input.


This is some basic stuff Patrick, I am not sure why you keep posting about PPD's, but here is something that I would LOVE to see, and that is a standardized across the board, and within the law series of tests that a dog, and PPD owner would have to pass. 

That would wipe out a lot of PPD people, as they love to send their dog on the bad guy, a no no as far back as I can remember, as a running bad guy is no longer a bad guy. No building searches, as if you suspect some buttwad is in your house, then you don't go in, and you call the police. Dog can't bite a guy for just coming in, as you are not being threatened. That is where they get you in civil court.$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I would love to hear from the actual officers what the laws are with PPD's, as it is pretty sketchy getting exact info as the laws are a bit different from state to state.

Patrick, I need to get you to do Mondio, as you will have much more fun, and if your dog happens to bite the ever lovin **** out of someone, and they go to sue you, you can have the defense that the dog is just a "sport dog" LOL =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Kevin Powell

Jeff, I'm sorry that you are under the impression that a lot of PPD people love to send their dog on bad guys and would not be qualified handlers if there was a standardized test to guage their competency. All of the PPD people I have come in contact with are level headed and well trained handlers. You make the point that a dog can't bite someone for breaking in because you are not yet being threatened. I don't know about you but I take someone entering into my home without permission a grave threat to myself and my family and the law in California agrees. I agree that the dog bite law gets a bit sketchy here and there and I have found a great resource to clear it up. Check out the following link under "defenses" then "defense based on trespass".

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/civil.htm#defenses


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## Patrick Murray

Jeff, I post about PPD dogs because that is my primary interest. 

I agree 100% that a standardized test would be great. Although the former ASR and other organizations have tried to standardize PPD dogs, they're still sporty and fall short of what is a true PPD test. 

I'd definitely be interested in Mondio Ring for my pup, Fiona. I just wish they had it in the Orlando area. Why don't you move back here and we'll start up a club?


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## Howard Gaines III

Patrick and Kevin since we are PPD people, I feel that we can also agree to this point: K-9 ownership as we train in it should also be dovetailed to the other forms of PP, many which some civilians use. Martial arts training, home security measures, responsible firearms ownership, training, and the ability to carry a concealed weapon. Remember, the dog is a *caliber style tool. *Some carry big guns, other carry small ones, but it's how well you work with the tool you own, this is the key point. Picking a dog that fits into your environment is the key: kids, seniors, city, country, dual purpose animal, single purpose, working/sporting/herding breeds, this is all part of the big picture. Both of your points are excellent ones and ones I support in the forum section PPDs.

Bob may roll out with a pack of JRTs and/or a firearm. The small dog alerts and gives the owner time to deploy counter measures if a bad guy is in the home. One would think that a 911 call is possible/cellphone, K-9 on lead and ready to protect, and making sure family members are out of harms way. 

On the farm and around out buildings, I don't always have access to other tools. A Glock is always at hand and the property is posted and secured. My dogs bark and some bite, but as PPD trainers we must understand the limits of our K-9 tool use outside a structure. Most laws will allow you to use means to limit the harm which you are facing. This does not allow the PPD owner freedom to send the dog on a long bite as the bad guy is running away.* If you are threatened and fear for your life* the measures I've understood in Delaware allow you to use *reasonable measures. This is key to anything and everything. *

If the bad guy was punched and knocked out, the home owmer can't deploy the dog. They can have it ready, just like having a firearm ready. IE: You shoot the bad guy as he is in your home and you feel threatened. He has a gun, club, knife, something. He is now down and now no threat to you. You can't go back and shoot him some more just because this ass pissed you off. The threat level has been terminated, now 911/state police come into action. I think most courts are going to side with the home owner on a break-in scenario, trained dog or not, shooting, or you knocked the poor fool out with a frying pan!

Again, we don't do sport K-9 stuff. Life in this generation isn't a game and neither should be the style of our training. When fifteen year old kids are using stolen guns to commit felonies and the murder rate is the US rises, we must train for the real deal. The idea that we are living in the good old days is a joke, we aren't. 
I see nothing wrong with building or area searches, tracking, escape bites, environmental style training, or any other reasonable training techniques. These are pieces of a puzzle that help our dogs overcome issues and build them into stronger tools. 

Today, karate is a sport; in Okinawa in the 1600's it was a way of life. Train to win or die. We all see sport dogs that run the full measure of tough. But sport is sport. How do you view life? How do your view your safety measures in a reasonable application scenario, dogs included. Gentlemen, my position is simple: PPD isn't a game with me! I train in all weather conditions, many different bite scenarios, and I want my dog to bite and fight. I don't care if he has the man by the man-parts...bring his sorry ass here! Now, how do you dial "911?" :-o


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## Guest

> I would love to hear from the actual officers what the laws are with PPD's, as it is pretty sketchy getting exact info as the laws are a bit different from state to state.


No need for a middle man. Just google the compiled statutes of your state of choice.

Speaking for Illinois, you'll only find laws pertaining to the protection of service dogs from a person's behavior. Additionally there'd simply be laws or ordinances governing general dog bites or leash stuff. Then there's BSL, which I suppose kind of touches on some ghetto ideas about personal and property protection.

That mainstream or legitimate "Personal protection" is an undefined, relatively fringe undertaking, I really doubt it'll ever show up on the radar of state congresses. If you write a letter, I imagine an office assistant finding Schutzhund on wikipedia and giving his boss a briefing.

Prejudicial, casual observations ahead:

In fact...on one hand, it might also appear that the hood rats are kind of living the fantasy of many a PPD deployer. Their dogs are ACTUALLY biting and killing people. :-o Ah yes...but they don't have control. Well...where exactly does the rubber meet the road?

Remember the video footage of that obese woman who sicks her pitbull on that female animal control officer?

"Get off my property or I'm sending the dog....ok, here he comes."

And then the dog trots out and hands her ass to her.

Compile the average wet-dream of some PPD enthusiasts, and erase much of the specific context , that seems to be pretty much text-book.

How many "scenarios" do we think this schizophrenic trailer resident had gone through?


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## Patrick Murray

Thanks for your thoughts Steven. 

My wife and I both grew up with dogs. So having dogs is a natural fit for us. However, we want dogs that can be more than "pets" and which can deter and help protect us. Also, I enjoy the training and the work. Could I live without a PPD? Sure. By the same token, could I leave my doors unlocked at night and remain safe? Probably. As far as random crime goes the odds are pretty much always with us that we'll be ok. By having these dogs I think we can pretty much guarantee that nobody is breaking into our home to cause us harm; besides, we've got nothing here that anybody serious would want anyway. But I don't mind having stable and trained bite-dogs around. I sleep better at night.


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## Gerry Grimwood

I enjoy these threads, Kinda like watching 6 hrs of The Godfather movie or going to an MMA match..gets you pumped up and ready to go :lol: 

But really, you can patrol your property with a dog in one hand and a cannon in the other if you want, most people that really mean to do you harm are not just acting randomly, more likely because you were boinking someones wife/ failing to pay a gambling debt or cheating a buisness associate.

Geez Howard, you sound like you're ready to go to war. I heard a comedian once talking about people starving in a desert somewhere, his advice was simple...move to where the food is. The same logic applies to this PPD thing, if it's that bad where you live then move.

Unless it is a status thing


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## Patrick Murray

To each his own Gerry. I don't have an issue with someone wanting to train Schutzhund, playing water polo or being a vegetarian. I don't see what the issue is for someone to have a stable, trained, biting dog. This is WorkingDogForum.Com, isn't it? I didn't post this by mistake on MyPrettyPet.Com, did I? I don't understand why one who doesn't believe that stable, trained biting dogs can exist in a family setting is participating on this board. It would sort of be like an athiest posting on a bible scriptures board.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Steven Lepic said:


> No need for a middle man. Just google the compiled statutes of your state of choice.


Or call your local animal control and police. I recently did both, to find out exactly what would have happened if I'd used my dogs. The cops came instead, before I felt the need to do more then keep the guy confined to one room in the house. But you can bet if I'd felt the need I've had turned them loose and figured out the legal aspects after the fact. It's nice to know ahead of time though what you may be facing if you have to use them, and between AC and the police, I got the answers I needed.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Patrick Murray said:


> First off, if you don't believe in the concept of a "good" ppd and/or if you don't know shit about ppd's then please stay the hell out of this topic. Thank you in advance.


I never said I don't believe in PPD dogs, by your opening statement though you are basically stating : If you don't agree with what I say then don't bother posting.

I believe it has been explained by more knowledgeable people than myself or you what the requirements are, I believe them and just leave it at that.

I have Pilates class with my dog and we both have to carbo load and get a couple of smoothies in us before we go, so I'll text you later.


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## Patrick Murray

Have a safe and good time Gerry.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I enjoy these threads, Kinda like watching 6 hrs of The Godfather movie or going to an MMA match..gets you pumped up and ready to go :lol:
> 
> But really, you can patrol your property with a dog in one hand and a cannon in the other if you want, most people that really mean to do you harm are not just acting randomly, more likely because you were boinking someones wife/ failing to pay a gambling debt or cheating a buisness associate.
> 
> Geez Howard, you sound like you're ready to go to war. I heard a comedian once talking about people starving in a desert somewhere, his advice was simple...move to where the food is. The same logic applies to this PPD thing, if it's that bad where you live then move.
> 
> Unless it is a status thing



Hi Gerry - I think you might know the kind of small, tight knit town I live in. I can't remember where my front door key is. Women alone still bike and jog on a trail outside of town around the lake. I sleep with my windows open in the summertime.

Three years ago a horrible incident occurred in our little town. The murderers name is Joseph Duncan. His crime here made national news. He was a newly released felon driving down I-90. The interstate bisects town. Apparently 2 little kids playing in their yard caught his eye.

To make a long story short, he beat the mother, boyfriend and her teenage son to death in their home. He then kidnapped the other 2 kids, both in elementary school. He took them to a remote place in the mountains of Montana and repeatedly raped them for days.

He then killed the little boy and returned to town with the little girl. They caught this animal at a local Denny's Restaurant.

He is being investigated for other rape-murders of other children in different states.

If anyone doubts these events just google his name.

The town got over it to some extent. They helped the lone survivor and her natural father who has cancer. They even built a house for them.

This obviously was a very isolated incident in a small "safe" town. Someone on another thread wanted to know if there was a civil war going on here when I spouted off on weapons.

There is no civil war. It just takes 1 maniac in any small town to rock everyones boat.

I don't think it gets any more random than this guy's acts.


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## Howard Knauf

Gerry Grimwood said:


> most people that really mean to do you harm are not just acting randomly,


 Keep believing that. Ignorance is bliss. Maybe thats why you're undecided on what venue you train your dog in. For a person thats so dedicated to their convictions, what venue are you really dedicated to? We all know it's not PPDs. (or the thought of certain persons training PPDs.) I haven't decided yet. 

Howard


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## Guest

> Or call your local animal control and police. I recently did both, to find out exactly what would have happened if I'd used my dogs. The cops came instead, before I felt the need to do more then keep the guy confined to one room in the house. But you can bet if I'd felt the need I've had turned them loose and figured out the legal aspects after the fact. It's nice to know ahead of time though what you may be facing if you have to use them, and between AC and the police, I got the answers I needed.


But it wasn't laws proprietary to "personal protection dogs", right? Simply the logical extension of existing use of force principles.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard K, I don't live in bliss, I just wouldn't be so naive to think that a dog is going to save my life. 

Maybe it's because I live where I do and have no concept of what it's like in the States, but if it was as bad as you guys say, I would move to Canada. 

I don't think it's that bad though, maybe for some and that would be the same as here, that's life.

I'll still take a Remington 800 3" pump over a dog any day, we Canadians may not be as exposed to these things like in the USA, but some are armed just as well, not me of course, I am a pacifist.

Lee, I know there are nutcases in small towns, there was a guy in Mayerthorpe Alberta that killed some RCMP members recently and too many more to mention that did some pretty sick shit, but in a small town people know who the nutbars are, they just don't know when they're going to go off.


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## Mo Earle

Just curious- *How would you "test" your personal protection dog? *
_
Patrick referenced protection venues like ASR to be ...in his words..."they're still sporty and fall short of what is a true PPD test."_

Could you tell me, in your opinion *what is the "true PPD test"*- short of having the Real assault on you or your family-_how would you conduct this test, what would be expected of the dog in this test_...just interested in what could realistically be trained/ or qualities looked for in the "natural protector" again in your opinion?

If you guys don't test through the "sport" world...how is it that you test at all- and how are you grading the success of your dog,his nerve, his stability, to tell if he/she would meet your qualifications expected by you of the "true protection dog?"

Don't you feel that those were the goals of PSA,K9 prosports,ASR and APPDA...to name a few?
But short of hiring the local thug to break into your buddies house, unexpectedly...to test the dog, you will not get the same fear/anxiety reaction from the handler, the eliment of surprise, etc. etc...

If you have suggestions, the true test, or a plan- I am sure a lot of ppd owners would be interested in participating.....Mo


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gerry - I don't want you to think any of this stuff has driven me "over the edge".:grin:

I own just 2 guns. A police version riot shotgun and a 357 magnum snub nose pistol in case they get close enough that I don't have to do much drywall repair.:lol:

I have mace and a baton for when I retire next year to Costa Rica. That's to ward off any attacking dogs when I walk my own. They don't know anyone ever invented the leash in Costa Rica.:lol:

I just found out that mace has a expiration date.:-x


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## Gerry Grimwood

I understand you completely Lee, I own a couple as well, well 18 if you count the ones mounted behind the sheetrock/drywall in my house :lol: 

There are a couple of things I enjoy about being over 50, I can for the most part still state my opinion without being too rude and the other is I can listen to what others say and try to understand where they're coming from...but still forget it by the next morning :-o


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## Howard Knauf

Gerry wrote...


> I just wouldn't be so naive to think that a dog is going to save my life.


 What do you believe in? The RCMP getting to your home in time on their horse to stop that nutbar that decides to rape your wife while you're at work? Ya gotta believe in something, Gerry. Otherwise you're just sheep. (Almost forgot...you're in canada, you are sheep) I'd move there but I like my guns too much. 



> I'll still take a Remington 800 3" pump over a dog any day....not me of course, I am a pacifist.


 I'm pretty gun savvy, Gerry. The only Remington 800 I ever heard of was a mens' electric shaver. They use those on sheep sometimes, eh?#-o




> but in a small town people know who the nutbars are, they just don't know when they're going to go off.


 Are you going to wait till after they go off? Who cares if you know who they are? The fact is you know they are there and as a responsible adult you need to take precautions in protecting you and your's. The police are there to pick up the peices only. Would you rather have the peices your family or the well known nutbar that may pop at any given time?

Gerry...I see that you own a beautiful dog. What exactly do you do with him? If he's only a pet, thats OK. This is a working dog forum and you seem to have a lot to say on the subject so lets make a decision instead of riding the fence and criticizing others' efforts. 

A pacifist with a biting dog (if he bites) ....what a kick in the ass that is. Sorta like jumbo shrimp. No hard feelings Gerry. I just call 'em like I see 'em.:lol:

Howard of the South.


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## Lee H Sternberg

I didn't know you were such a young pup, Gerry. At 62 I forget about it after before I hit the sack.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Steven Lepic said:


> But it wasn't laws proprietary to "personal protection dogs", right? Simply the logical extension of existing use of force principles.


It was specifically about using the dogs, and any ramifications related to it. I didn't ask about using any other means of force. It's possible the police were giving me general use of force information, based on the "level" a dog is (lethal vs non-lethal) but the AC was giving me information specific to dog bites. My point was mainly that 2 phone calls and I had the answers, from "locals" who I was able to ask questions of vs trying to read something on the web and interpret it.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Howard, you may have heard or read about this Duncan case. He got free in North Dakota and was headed for Seattle when he detoured. He wasn't a local.


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## Patrick Murray

Mo Earle said:


> Just curious- *How would you "test" your personal protection dog? *


_

That sounds like a great topic of discussion. Why don't you start a new thread on the subject rather than hijack this one?_


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard,

I don't believe in any Police force coming to my rescue in time of need, they are just like anybody else from a service standpoint that will show up after the fact to do what they do.

And sorry, it's a 870 with a 19 inch barrel, but it's a camp gun..for noise basically to scare bears away, it's only used for fun now, since I live where I really can't shoot pepole just for fun, I have a .338 mag Ruger model 70 that was my mainstay for Moose and Elk, but I didn't kill anyone with it.

I don't live in a small city, and the pacifist thing was just a joke.

My dog and I are working towards bitework on a suit, I'm sorry I don't have any outstanding pictures of him biting a sleeve or whatever, that's why I post my pictures in the casual section, when we get to the point where we are working together I may post some under the working section, I'll have to wait and see because I'm really not in a hurry to prove anything to you or anyone else here. 

I have posted publicly and pm'd privately about some problems we are having, and am in the process of working on these.

Howard, I have read many of your posts and respect your opinion, because I am not at your level doesn't mean I'm stupid and not entitled to state my thoughts like anyone else, and take the critisism that may come from that.

I have said previously that I have no experience with PPd dogs, but sometimes these theads just sound like people are just talking out of their assholes.


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## Patrick Murray

Gerry, you have your own view of PPD dogs and that's fine. I believe that one who wants to persuade should also be willing to be persuaded. The give and take of experiences and opinions is what I guess we're here for. We may not agree but that's ok. Thanks for sharing your view.


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## Howard Knauf

Gerry wrote..


> And sorry, it's a 870 with a 19 inch barrel, but it's a camp gun..for noise basically to scare bears away, it's only used for fun now, since I live where I really can't shoot pepole just for fun, I have a .338 mag Ruger model 70 that was my mainstay for Moose and Elk, but I didn't kill anyone with it.


 Now you're speaking my language.



> Howard, I have read many of your posts and respect your opinion, because I am not at your level doesn't mean I'm stupid and not entitled to state my thoughts like anyone else, and take the critisism that may come from that.


 Gerry, In no way am I trying to make you feel stupid, or less knowledgable. Not my intention even though I can be sarcastic. My apologies if you feel that way.

You do have the right to state your thoughts, thats a given. But when you discount what others are doing, or make negative statements about a subject you admittedly are not well versed in, how do you expect others to respond? Ask a question if you're not sure. If the answer is not satisfactory..ask another, or clarification.
I dabble in sport work. In no way would I ever consider, or pretend to tell a sport person how to train their dog or to discount what they are doing. Over the years I've learned a crap load from sport people, chances are I can learn from you as well but not by being condescending or closed minded just because sport doesn't appeal or apply to me.

Hope that clarifies my previous posts. Yes I'm a smart ass sometimes. No I don't like belittling anyone. Some folks just need a reality check is all. You have nothing to prove to me...nor me to you. If a PPD is not your cup of tea then sit back, learn, ask a question or two and get involved when it pertains to you. You have a voice here, why use it for conflict. Yea yea, I know Jeff does it....if he wasn't allowed to he would become one of those strange cat people.:lol:

Howard


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard Knauf said:


> What exactly do you do with him? If he's only a pet, thats OK. This is a working dog forum and you seem to have a lot to say on the subject so lets make a decision instead of riding the fence and criticizing others' efforts.


I'm ok with the term pet as well, at least I don't make up some story to make him seem to be more than he is, that's called reality.


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Howard
> I have said previously that I have no experience with PPd dogs, but sometimes these theads just sound like people are just talking out of their assholes.


=; WOOOO Jerry this is the siberdogworld every one is a expert cant ya tell by all the video examples posted on these threads :---):lol::lol::lol: its allot easier to explain than to demonstrate :lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard,

I have to question it because I don't see a need for it, an Alert dog I can understand, a Police dog I can understand, a dog just to bite someone that comes in your house I don't see any reason for.

The dog should bark like a maniac and let everyone know something is happening, no problem there, you have been served notice.

If it's a random act and the person has a screwdriver, the dogs bark had better been enough to get you motivated.


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## Patrick Murray

Mike Scheiber said:


> =; WOOOO Jerry this is the siberdogworld every one is a expert cant ya tell by all the video examples posted on these threads :---):lol::lol::lol: its allot easier to explain than to demonstrate :lol::lol::lol::lol:


Well, Mike, what was it that was explained in this thread for which you need a video demonstration?


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## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Howard,
> 
> I have to question it because I don't see a need for it, an Alert dog I can understand, a Police dog I can understand, a dog just to bite someone that comes in your house I don't see any reason for.
> 
> The dog should bark like a maniac and let everyone know something is happening, no problem there, you have been served notice.
> 
> If it's a random act and the person has a screwdriver, the dogs bark had better been enough to get you motivated.



Gerry,

you simply never know when something terrible might happen. I live in a "nice" gated community and the kind of neighborhood where several NFL players make their residence. In fact, I bought my home from a former AZ Cardinal. This is not a high crime area but since I've lived here one neighbor has been broken into, the children and babysitter were forced into a bedroom, tied up and left there until somebody found them. Luckily, nobody was hurt but it's very unsettling to know that there was definite opportunity for them and anybody else in this neighborhood to be harmed. 

There was another occasion last year when my wife was out walking when a man in a truck drove along side and continued to talk to her about christmas gifts. She kept turning corners and he would follow. At one point he actually drove ahead and got out of the truck. Luckily she had our male Rottweiler at the time. Though he was only 11mo at the time he still had enough schH training to think we might be doing another exercise. Either way, the man was met with that ice cold stare that Rotties give. My wife yelled at the man and said the dog was trained to bite. (Can't say that he would but he might have at the time). The dog was enough threat to deter the man.

I know you can still argue that nobody needs a biting dog and my case may seem to illustrate your point but YOU NEVER KNOW. Is it worth the possibly having a missing, damaged, beaten, raped spouse/child in leiu of having a dog that isn't trained to bite.

I am happy to know that my dog will absolutely bite if needed. And if he never gets to bite a real person then so what, at least I had fun training him and I can alway send him on a meathead fireman if he continues to spout shit about others. [-X


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## Gerry Grimwood

Maybe i'm the naive one then, or I just am able to make more choices than some, but I wouldn't stay or let my family stay in these areas.


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## Howard Knauf

Gerry,

Lets see if I can use a euphemism for the dog. Lets consider a baseball bat instead. Do you want a nice aluminum bat or wood Louisville Slugger to handle your business? Or do you use a nice plastic wiffle ball bat? After all, its still a bat. Now, some might be put off by the faux bat, but if the tough guy isn't I'd rather whack him with some authority than just piss him off. 

Lets say you have an aversion to guns and aren't strong enough to handle a real street tough mano au mano. Do you buy a plastic look alike gun and hope the guy buys the bluff? If he doesn't then you are in some trouble.



> I have to question it because I don't see a need for it, an Alert dog I can understand, a Police dog I can understand, a dog just to bite someone that comes in your house I don't see any reason for.


 Just because you don't see the need for it doesn't mean there is no need? The anti gun crowd down here don't see the need for civilian ownership of firearms. Should they all be banned, or discouraged? In this county if someone breaks into your home you can use deadly force if you are in fear (in Florida you don't even have to be in fear. The fact that they broke in is enough). If the gun grabbers had their way we would be without firearm protection. If those that don't see the need for a PPD had their way we would be without that As well. All you gotta do is ask anyone in the UK or Australia how far the gov't has gone in banning all sorts of inanimate objects because they MIGHT be used as a weapon.

Now, just because we have those means of protection available doesn't gaurantee you will survive. It does guarantee your chances of being a survivor tenfold as opposed to a straight up, passive "please don't hurt me" sheep to be slaughtered at the whim of the bad guy.

Maybe it's just that we live in totally different locations that you don't see the need. I'm sure there's plenty of things up there that I don't see the need for. I still wouldn't deny you the right to obtain those things...especially if it meant saving your life.

Howard


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## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Maybe i'm the naive one then, or I just am able to make more choices than some, but I wouldn't stay or let my family stay in these areas.



The point is, it can happen anywhere and at anytime. Nice neighborhood, bad neighborhood, country, city... I'm curious, why do you feel so safe in this day and age? 

What do you think society will be like if war erupts, gas shoots to $10-12/gal, food is scarce because truckers quit and we go into a full on greater depression? It could happen. This ain't the 1950's like one of the Howards mentioned. I dunno where you live but what if you had a huge EQ hit? No power, no food, nowhere to go and nothing to do and your town becomes a police state like New Orleans?

Call me a nut but I'd rather have a trained dog than a dog that was just super obedient. Mentally, I could deal with my dog biting somebody in threatening situation than I could with putting a bullet or knife into somebody.


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## Howard Knauf

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Maybe i'm the naive one then, or I just am able to make more choices than some, but I wouldn't stay or let my family stay in these areas.


 Gerry,

It's everywhere. From the hood to the million dollar homes. You can't run from it. You have to deal with it. We have a nice place in the mountains in North Carolina. Good people but there';s still a lot of mountain trash up there. And now...we are having a recession of sorts here. Desparate people do desparate things. There is no Utopia. You see things on the news all the time. "This sort of thing never happens here"...yea, well now it has.

Howard


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## Patrick Murray

My neighborhood has recently experienced break-ins of cars and homes. Nothing violent has happenned...yet. I spoke to a detective who told me that some punks from Orlando are driving out to nicer neighborhoods and committing these crimes. Better neighborhood are not immune to criminals.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Perhaps my opinion regarding this subject is skewed from currently living in and having been raised in a ******* society where *everybody* has a gun. I enjoy reading these threads and don't have much to add aside from my observations while living in different parts of the country including HillBillyVille (Prospect)/ Portland, Oregon, Killeen/Fort Hood, Texas, Milwaukee/Waukesha/Hartford Wisconsin. I spent quite a bit of time in Chicago, and unfortunate amount of time in Laredo, Texas, and have driven across the country a few times. I haven't been down South nor have I been further east than Ohio but I have been to unsavory parts of many places, over 20 states in the US.

People that are willing and able to do these bad things often depend on people not being able or willing to defend themselves. Large barking dogs are a deterrent. Even if they don't bite, they make noise. 

People do stupid crazy stuff. Especially when certain substances are involved things can get really messy really fast. I've seen people wig out and not care one bit about a gun in their face but back down from a dog barking at them. Not something to bank on, certainly, but even if the dog doesn't bite it can buy you time. The training, in my opinion, is to increase the chances of the dog actually biting, which buys you more time.

I look at it this way. You can own a gun and just the sight of it can intimidate people, but if you have no ammunition your SOL. Buying ammunition and firing the gun at the range does not guarantee you will be able to defend yourself if you must, but at least the option is there. Same with the dog, it can be a deterrent just sitting in your yard but without training its like an unloaded gun. Training does not guarantee your 100% safe but it is a step in the right direction. The dog may not bite but just like you with your pistol, until you get into the situation where it is necessary, you don't know what will happen.

For a lot of people, an empty firearm is enough - just like a large dog barking is enough. For others, it's not.


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## Gerry Grimwood

I can understand where all of you are coming from in terms of what happens, it's the same here to a point, but not so publicized. I never ever hear of a police dog incident in the news, although they happen on a regular basis.

Never heard of a dog biting an intruder, although it may happen, usually people are just shot but not to the extent in the USA.

It's just different here, on a smaller scale. Tonite it's 32 deg celcius and I have no AC so I'll sleep with all the windows open and I will sleep like a baby, my pet dog will be in the house though


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## Mike Schoonbrood

If my dog bites someone he'll get put down


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## David Scholes

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> If my dog bites someone he'll get put down


Your choice or Belgian law? No evaluation of the circumstance? Are you saying your dog would get put down even if protecting your family from a known felon inside your home?


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## Al Curbow

Gerry, i absolutely love a ppd, the problem is it's a tough dog to find, especially if one is looking for the lassie/cujo dog, that's where i think everything gets a little screwy. Is that dog out there? Sure but it's probably really hard to find.

A nice civil dog is awesome but folks always have excuses why the dog didn't work that day. Can the dog surmise that you are only roughhousing? No, that's bullshit, can the dog decide that it's ok that a stranger is in the house is ok?, no, more bs, etc. Can the dog run and play with all the kids in the neighborhood? probably not. If a stranger give it a command what does the dog do? It should bite. You can go on and on. Is it antisocial? I hope so! Does it need to be social? No, it has it's job to do and the immediate family is all the dog needs.

If the dog has high thresholds it's probably not a great canidate.


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## Patrick Murray

Al, I think it's fair to say that there are different kinds of PPD dogs, all with their own thresholds. As I stated earlier in an example, a loner living in the wilderness might have a PPD that is super anti-social and would have to be very carefully controlled when the handler had an invited guest. A family may have a dog that is stable with the kids, tolerant and perhaps even friendly with invited guests and will bite if the family is attacked. That dog may or may not be a "monster" in its bitework but will bite. It's still a PPD. That's no different than someone having a hunting dog that might not be the best hunting dog there ever was but it's still a hunting dog.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

David Scholes said:


> Your choice or Belgian law? No evaluation of the circumstance? Are you saying your dog would get put down even if protecting your family from a known felon inside your home?


Belgian Law. Or, for that matter, much of Europe. Maybe all of Europe for all I know, but I know countries, especially the newer EU countries to the east, don't take everything too seriously  I don't think the Bratislava police really care if a criminal gets bitten. Maybe they do??

I haven't looked at the letter of the law, but I know that self defense doesn't fly here at all, and from what I understand, if your dog bites someone it doesn't matter what the circumstance, the dog will get put down. Someone told me "on the spot," but I am guessing he meant that as a figure of speech, not that they literally shoot the dog in your driveway. I will see if I can find the actual text, but it seems to be common knowledge among everyone I've talked to around here.

In the city of Wavre they require all Rotties and Mal's to be muzzled when in a public place. Lots of people are pissed about that, especially considering Wavre is where they hold the NVBK FCI championships.


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## Gillian Schuler

I saw a discussion on a German forum once about people breaking into homes and being bitten by the owner's dog/s. Apparently, the intruder can sue for damages and the owner charged with negligence:???: .
If the intruder kills the dog in attempt to save his own life, he has the right to do so......

Here in Switzerland all dog bites on persons and other dogs have to be registered. The vet asks for the name of the owner of the aggressor and a warning is sent to the owner. A police friend of ours says there is no law to force people to give a name but most people believe Uncle Doctor!!!

I also think most of the neighbouring countries have similar laws. That's why we probably don't call them PPDs here but 4-legged liabilities8-[


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## David Scholes

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I haven't looked at the letter of the law, but I know that self defense doesn't fly here at all, and from what I understand, if your dog bites someone it doesn't matter what the circumstance, the dog will get put down. Someone told me "on the spot," but I am guessing he meant that as a figure of speech, not that they literally shoot the dog in your driveway. I will see if I can find the actual text, but it seems to be common knowledge among everyone I've talked to around here.


Hmmm. So a "Good" proven PPD in the EU is a DEAD dog . Does this apply to the police/military dogs? It sounds to me like it won't be long until no bite training or sport work will be allowed in Europe.


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## Howard Gaines III

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I understand you completely Lee, I own a couple as well, well 18 if you count the ones mounted behind the sheetrock/drywall in my house :lol:
> 
> There are a couple of things I enjoy about being over 50, I can for the most part still state my opinion without being too rude and the other is I can listen to what others say and try to understand where they're coming from...but still forget it by the next morning :-o


Well Gerry there are two issues: Canada and over 50. :mrgreen: You are right, able to post without being rude is refreshing, like someone who talks with you and not at you. I fully understand and respect the message. The over 50 thing, don't remind me!!!!! 52 in November....... 

Next, life for me is great, I love my farm and the things one can do on it. I have a friend who owns a dairy farm 10 miles from me. They have been broken into many times and now are using Dobies as guard dogs. I do carry a handgun on the farm and use it for fox control at 25 yards. IF my dogs alerted to a person milling about, I could hear and respond quickly. About an hour ago, the guy who does my tilling got out and we talked. Frankie knows the training we do and the type of dogs that I own. He waits until I put them up. This is responsible PPD ownership. To me a good PPD is one that can be kenneled without issue. To allow mine to run free is a battle, they see everyone as either the tax man, or some misfit church person trying to get you to their place. 

Crime in Canada or anyplace else is still the same. The degree of issue will be different. Sure some folks can still leave their homes unlocked and some do in Delaware, but the sad truth is most are broken into by crack heads looking to take the fruits of your labor. If my dog/s locks into one of these wonderful human beings, I'll do my best to look after his safety, after calling 911. If you're big enough to beat up old ladies and take food from the mouths of hard working folks, you're big enough to have you butt handed to you by someone's protection system.

Caution: This property is protected by a Bouvier des Flandres Motion Detector!​


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## Howard Gaines III

Howard Knauf said:


> Gerry,
> 
> Lets see if I can use a euphemism for the dog. Lets consider a baseball bat instead. Do you want a nice aluminum bat or wood Louisville Slugger to handle your business? Or do you use a nice plastic wiffle ball bat? After all, its still a bat. Now, some might be put off by the faux bat, but if the tough guy isn't I'd rather whack him with some authority than just piss him off.
> 
> Lets say you have an aversion to guns and aren't strong enough to handle a real street tough mano au mano. Do you buy a plastic look alike gun and hope the guy buys the bluff? If he doesn't then you are in some trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you don't see the need for it doesn't mean there is no need? The anti gun crowd down here don't see the need for civilian ownership of firearms. Should they all be banned, or discouraged? In this county if someone breaks into your home you can use deadly force if you are in fear (in Florida you don't even have to be in fear. The fact that they broke in is enough). If the gun grabbers had their way we would be without firearm protection. If those that don't see the need for a PPD had their way we would be without that As well. All you gotta do is ask anyone in the UK or Australia how far the gov't has gone in banning all sorts of inanimate objects because they MIGHT be used as a weapon.
> 
> Now, just because we have those means of protection available doesn't gaurantee you will survive. It does guarantee your chances of being a survivor tenfold as opposed to a straight up, passive "please don't hurt me" sheep to be slaughtered at the whim of the bad guy.
> 
> Maybe it's just that we live in totally different locations that you don't see the need. I'm sure there's plenty of things up there that I don't see the need for. I still wouldn't deny you the right to obtain those things...especially if it meant saving your life.
> 
> Howard


Oh Howard, you're preaching better than folks are shouting...I like! Hey batter, batter! :mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III

Mike with the number Ring and KNPV clubs over there, I would think that the laws would be in favor of the homeowner/dog. Do they just give the bad guy a verbal warning and then ask them if they would pay a trespass fine?! It would be the battle from hell if one of my dogs were to be put down for saving my sorry butt! \\/ How do you change the law or do you?


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## Mo Earle

Quote:
 Originally Posted by *Mo Earle*  
_Just curious- *How would you "test" your personal protection dog? *


 Patrick responded- That sounds like a great topic of discussion. Why don't you start a new thread on the subject rather than hijack this one?
 
Why would that question be hijacking your topic? Your topic is "what determines a "good" PPD?"
this is going to sound like the start of a pissing match- not intended to be,but in writing you can't have a good debate, back and forth...without sounding a little pushy.... you started the topic with the question yourself, and I don't believe you can answer it, so that is why you avoid it and accuse me of attempting to hijack.......but I will ask again...
what determines a good ppd, and how would you know if you had one, what tests would you do?
I think that follows your topic....:-k

even if you can't answer...you do come up with some good topics for discussion....

So how do you qualify your question, Patrick? again....Not trying to hijack any topic of yours- actually it has been enjoyable reading, but it has been more of the "neighborhood" the "nutjobs" in the neighborhood, the "local laws and ordinances " in regards to consequences for using your "good PPD" and the "good weapons the man has in these neighborhoods, with or without nutjobs"....but I am attempting to hijack, when I ask a direct question about the "good PPD"..could you explain?

also you had stated- some kind of response, about ASR...and the protection sport venues, just not meeting the needs to test the PPD....

SO why when I ask You what kind of testing would you do, or suggest, or like to see, in response to one of your posts...or ask -how I would determine if I indeed had a "good PPD"...you state I am hijacking this thread?](*,)

Should I have worded it differently...ok, Patrick, what do YOU feel determines a "good' PPD, and to determine you have successfully obtained that "good PPD", how would YOU as an author of the thread. let someone know?

You listed calm nerves, getting along with your family,.....I think taking a beating....etc...but how do YOU determine, without the actual break in...without the actual hands on assault...that you have a "good protecion dog?" just interested in how I would tell, if my dogs were the same caliber...8-[

trying to stay within the guidelines of the forum- and not launching any direct personal attacks.but Patrick...maybe the new topic I can start or bring back-
"what knowlege, experiences,acheivements do you have,as a dog handler,owner,competitor-that would
help keep this forum credible in your sharing of knowledge ? 

You know, it is better when an author has some knowledge and experience to share...especially on their own topic....would you be willing to or ABLE realistically to share?

and again, so I do not hijack this thread...what do YOU feel determines a good PPD..and how do you know?

with that said....

stay safe, the storm is headed your way- we all got pounded down here, but everyone is safe. Mo_


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## Michelle Reusser

I'm with you Howard...dog , what dog? That wasn't myyyy dog.


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## David Scholes

Howard Gaines III said:


> It would be the battle from hell if one of my dogs were to be put down for saving my sorry butt! \\/ How do you change the law or do you?


Tea Party... the Boston kind.
Uh oh. Now I'll never be allowed in the EU. :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Why would the bite training go away in Europe? Its always been this way, its not like these are new developments. Dog sports have prospered regardless of the laws on dog bites, liability and criminal rights.

(but this is straying off topic.... as you were folks..)


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## Patrick Murray

Mo, As I state in my signature I am an amateur. I've never said that I was anything more than that. Anyone reading any of my posts will clearly see at the end of my post that I am an amateur. As far as what experiences I have is irrelevant here. I share my opinions but I also disclose that I am an amateur. If I were advocating that I am a professional and/or wanted to sell training, videos, etc. then, yes, I would agree that a resume of my qualifications would be in order. But since I'm not selling or advertising anything and since I state in my signature line that I am an amateur I don't believe it's necessary to put together a laundry list of my experiences. Besides, this post isn't about my experiences, Mo. It's not about me, Mo. It's about the qualities that make a "good" ppd. So, let me try and get back to that and maybe you can CONTRIBUTE to the topic. 

As you said, I pretty much stated in my original post some of the qualities that I feel a good ppd should have. Others have expanded on the subject. This post was about what makes a good ppd; I didn't ask what tests owners utilize to quantify if their ppd is "good" and what determines a status of "good" and so forth. I think those are fair questions but should be in another thread. 

With regard to my comment on ASR, ASR was a great sport. Yes, I said "sport". Was it not? I enjoyed it immensely and it's a damn shame that it went down the toilet; don't you think so, Mo? I know there was a lot of internal infighting and politics that ultimately led to its demise. I also recall that you were centrally involved in that affair. What a shock. 

In any event, ASR was certainly a test and a tough one at that. I loved ASR and in no way was my comment about it being "sporty" intended as a slight. ASR was a test but it was also a sport and probably more sport than a comprehensive test of a ppd. In my opinion a "true" ppd test should take into account the needed qualities as stated previously in this thread and "test" for them; I don't believe ASR did that. That's just my OPINION, Mo. If you feel otherwise you might stop talking about me and start talking about the subject at hand, for a change.


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## Randy Allen

Yeah Mo, take that. This is Patricks thread.
I didn't see the 'no tresspassing' sign either Pat. Please don't sic the dog on me!
Seems this thing has wandered every which way, but a relevent questions aren't allowed. Oops. Sorry, I forgot this is your thread Patrick. I had a question but you scare me, now I forgot it. I think it had to do with your op, oh well it was your question, and you're the only one allowed in the class room, well after all it's your private tutoring session. Have fun.
I'll go now.

Nothing to contribute.
Randy


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## Connie Sutherland

What IS it with PPD threads? :lol:

Come on! Personal attacks are SO not conducive to good discussion. 

Reminder (different participants):


Connie Sutherland said:


> About the private two-party flame war here:
> 
> *The Golden Rule of Flaming*
> 
> Flames should be witty, insulting, interesting, funny, caustic, or sarcastic, but *NEVER*, *EVER*, should they be boring.
> 
> from http://www.petrescue.com/library/flame-guide.htm
> ​More pointers at http://barb.velvet.com/humor/flaming.html
> 
> 
> And then take it to PMs, because this thread will be closed. [-X
> 
> 
> 
> ​


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## Howard Gaines III

Okay Connie time to give up your Mod job, you're slipping kid! This is two in two days!!!!!:twisted: :roll: What the heck, a full moon?

Back on track...like the pot is calling the kettle black. :mrgreen: 

If you were to have only one "look for" in a PPD prospect, what one major item would you pick? For me it would be the *biddable* choice. If a dog/puppy wants to please, you can do most things with it. A wild and unwilling animal will not want to take direction, rebounding from pressure can't happen due to avoidance issues.


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## Howard Gaines III

OFF TOPIC...KINDA.

A good PPD doesn't dig holes, and this will tie into this one Connie.

*In the Rule of Holes, you never dig one any deeper than you can step out from.* 

So the topic is..."What determines a "Good PPD?" Can we look at the idea of a rejected police or military dog as being one good for PPD training and homeland protection? Even if "homeland" is an apartment. About ten years ago, I looked at a Chinese bred and trained police dog. It was being sold by the city PD due to a lack of bite on command issues. It would chase the bad guy, B&H, but would not bite 24/7. I rejected it when I looked into the mouth and saw nothing but yellow, rotten teeth.


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## Patrick Murray

Howard Gaines III said:


> It would chase the bad guy, B&H, but would not bite 24/7. I rejected it when I looked into the mouth and saw nothing but yellow, rotten teeth.


Probably from years of smoking Howard. You know, those Chinese smoke a lot!


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## Mo Earle

> I rejected it when I looked into the mouth and saw nothing but yellow, rotten teeth.


Howard ...that might have still made a great PPD....get him close enough to the bad guy in his B&H...and his bad breath will just make him keel over, no bite needed..less paperwork.....oh...sorry good thing you did reject the dog, because this thread- .... is Only about "good PPD"'s...nope great dogs with yellow rotten teeth and killer breath, probably NOT allowed.....:wink:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you were to have only one "look for" in a PPD prospect, what one major item would you pick? For me it would be the *biddable* choice. If a dog/puppy wants to please, you can do most things with it. A wild and unwilling animal will not want to take direction, rebounding from pressure can't happen due to avoidance issues.


I would choose *formidable* over *biddable* if I needed to make that choice, if someone is attacking you, there should be only one direction the dog needs to go, no ?


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## Gillian Schuler

I'd choose an alert dog - one that from instinct senses danger (as in the unusual actions he picks up on) and can warn me. OK, not always possible - the nice guy who comes up in a friendly manner and trys to attack me - but then I hope his protection "instincts" could at least buy me time or get the "nice guy" to run.


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## Erik Berg

David Scholes said:


> Hmmm. So a "Good" proven PPD in the EU is a DEAD dog . Does this apply to the police/military dogs? It sounds to me like it won't be long until no bite training or sport work will be allowed in Europe.


No, don´t know about all of Europe, but here in Sweden you can use a dog for protection if you are in a selfdefence situation, otherwise there wouldn´t be any jobs for those securityhandlers that has PP-dogs in their jobs, and they has no more right to use force than an ordinary civilian. The PP-dogs used by securityguards are also tested for their mentality by the police and a simple obedience and protectioncertification must be done every year for the handlers of these dogs. PP-dogs for people outside the securitybusiness is rare and not so accepted as in US, very few people have the need and also the time/skill for such a dog I suppose.

I don´t think any sport can test for a good PP-dog, you can test the mentality of the dog and then train it according to the needs, as realistic as possible. What type of dog that is suited is also a personal preference I suppose, not much use of a dog that is a burden outside a dark alley, even if it does it job very well. As mentioned before, there are different type of PP-dogs and different needs also.


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## Howard Gaines III

If we're going to talk this PPD thing to death, have you ever seen the world's worst PPD or breed in action? Sure we could list a thousand things that could be wrong, but what really sticks out as the pits? And without giving names, how about the dumbest test from the PPD trainer? 

I've seen electric wire strung in front of the decoy and the dog with a poor out or kept bumping the decoy got bolted with the "juice." Like keeping cattle in, but done to keep the dog off the decoy. I thought it was dumb and it wasn't my dog.


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## Dan Long

This is the worst PPD breed. This picture was taken by an intruder with my own camera while this dog was on watch duty. My GSD chased the guy down and made him give him the camera.


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## Mike Scheiber

Howard Gaines III said:


> If we're going to talk this PPD thing to death, have you ever seen the world's worst PPD or breed in action? Sure we could list a thousand things that could be wrong, but what really sticks out as the pits? And without giving names, how about the dumbest test from the PPD trainer?
> 
> I've seen electric wire strung in front of the decoy and the dog with a poor out or kept bumping the decoy got bolted with the "juice." Like keeping cattle in, but done to keep the dog off the decoy. I thought it was dumb and it wasn't my dog.


How could someone that stupid have even enough sense to feed themselves this one of the stupidest dog training things I have ever heard of


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## Chris Michalek

I beg to differ. =; It's the two pugs in my house that always cause a ruckus. The rotties almost never bark unless the pugs start first. The thing I really hate about the pugs is the crap they bark at in the middle of the night causing all five dogs to go racing through the doggie door...sometimes at the same time. Those furry little a-holes are the cause of a crack in my wall when two rotts thought they could fit through the door at the same time.




Dan Long said:


> This is the worst PPD breed. This picture was taken by an intruder with my own camera while this dog was on watch duty. My GSD chased the guy down and made him give him the camera.


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## Dan Long

Yeah, he does bark a lot! Usually hiding behind me out in the yard lol! I'm sure you know that pugs were originally bred to be watch dogs, and they do it well. But he doesn't have a protective bone in his body. Our Dane barks more though, especially now with the AC turned off and the windows all open. Any strange noise, the floor starts shaking from her bark. My GSD rarely barks and when he does I will check it out just to make sure nothing is up.


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## Bob Scott

In all seriousness, for home protection, I've always said that a noisy little beast will fire up a big dog. The little guys always seem more on their toes so to speak.
After years with terriers and now having terriers and GSDs, I can personelly vouch for it.


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## Mike Scheiber

*Re: What Determines a "Good" PPD?
*One that produces better than him self


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## kim guidry

For me, this is what determines a good ppd










and then he can also do this


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## Jerry Lyda

That's right.


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## Patrick Murray

kim guidry said:


> For me, this is what determines a good ppd


Exactly right Kim!


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## Pascale Breton

He's got my vote!


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## Dan Long

This is another way to protect your kids. Let them get in the cage and have the dog watch them!  These are my brothers kids who we were baby sitting. They were fascinated with the crate and Gunnar was fascinated with them.


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## Howard Gaines III

Behind bars at an early age, yipes! I thought being behind bars had to do with happy hour?! Like two drinks to go before last call!:-k Did Gunnar poke at them with a stick?


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## Howard Knauf

Howard Gaines III said:


> Did Gunnar poke at them with a stick?


 I bet he ran over and ate their Cheerios.


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## Alegria Cebreco

Kim, I completely agree!!!!

Dan, too cute!! Thats how I'll babysit too, :twisted: lol j/k.


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## Jerry Lyda

I love these before and after photos. Anyone else?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Jeez, this is just good temperament guys. How did this get to be such a special trait ? ? ? Is there really that many shitters out there ???????


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## Gillian Schuler

Now you know :-( :-( :-(


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## Howard Gaines III

*What determines a good PPD?* It's all in the jeans! First, you put them on, then you train. See, jeans.


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