# On-lead Cadaver



## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Is it possible to successfully work a cadaver dog on lead? I know its typically done off lead, and thats how all the dogs on my team are run. 
My SAR team routinely exposes all live find dogs to cadaver to see how they will react to it, since you never know whats going to happen in the real world. My female hound is indifferent, but my male is absolutely attracted to it. If we have cadaver laid out near a trail hes on, he will leave the trail and go for the cadaver. He couldnt care less about dead animals along the trail, but is thoroughly fascinated by dead human. Go figure.

Rather than waste this natural imprinting, we are considering training him for cadaver. I was looking to retire him as a trailer anyway- he hates road work, and is not half as good as my female. But working him off lead just isnt going to happen. Hes a typical hound, and will completely ignore me, and gladly run into traffic or off a cliff, etc. He is NOT following trail when we have worked him on cadaver. We have taken care in how the cadaver is laid out, etc, and his body language is different.

I dont know if we will ever get him mission ready. He's 4 1/2+, and I have my hands full with my female. But was wondering bout working him on lead, just in case. And if I take him to a seminar, will we get laughed out?? Lol
Either way, its good training for me.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We work onlead when the situation really merits it but that is rare. I really can't imagine doing it routinely...about all we really use the lead for is vehicle searches. 

Thinking on the areas where bodies wind up (which is often not where sane people would go walking, such as thrown into a ravine..well we have kudzu and kudzu patches are great places (apparently) to toss bodies. ... you are going to take one heck of a beating. Then figure other searches for scattered bones - think shrubs, briars, and line handling in THAT only area search, not a trail.

Wilderness Cadaver is basically air scent with a different source and in more dimensions (underground and under water gets added) and often bits and peices. 

What do you mean by "hates road work"? How about nerve strength? Think active train tracks, industrial areas etc.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Well I take a heck of a beating running trail. My female will go through anything. There are plenty of times I am belly crawling for through areas because thats how scent has drifted and my female isnt too interested in wasting time finding an easy way through. Prickly stuff is the same. Some of my helpers are pretty insane!

But I see the difference. Never mind the length of time it would take to essentially grid an area.

His nerve strength is fine. But he's a country boy at heart. If I try to work him too much on the roads he shuts down. So makes it hard to train urban work. Its not a nerve issue. Its just ... him... Of course, I may well end up facing the same issue with him in cadaver.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Three of the dogs in the last seminar I attended worked only onlead. The handlers had a Hell of a time dealing with brush, rock drop offs, and water. 
Think of your tracking but covering the entire area with the grid.

We have been to several areas with quite a bit of equipment. One collapsed building, that would rattle even the most strong nerved dogs. So much going on with fire trucks, rescue equipment, people, even on site construction of wood braces and boxes to cover the ones found, then extrication tools.

Then another where we were asked to search in between the trackhoes digging out areas. 

I would be more concerned with that issue than the on lead part personally. The off lead dogs can cover a large area quickly which LE really appreciates lol.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Equipment would be fine, but working a building would be a stretch. Hes about 100 pounds, plus with all the heavy hound skin on his face he runs into trees and stuff all the time. He just doesnt see whats around him. A collapsed building would be a disaster. Lol


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I think a lot of it is where your team tends to work the most. While we can get called for wilderness cadaver and you do want off-leash for that, a lot of our work can and is done on leash or at least within very close proximity of the handler. Or maybe off-leash in a building. Like clearing a child's house in a missing child case for instance to make sure a family member didn't stuff the kid in a trunk or wall somewhere. Checking a basement for a buried body. Working rubble for victims of a building collapse or gas explosion.

And then of course boat work which isn't technically on-leash but the dog isn't going to run anywhere! Water cadaver probably accounts for 2/3 of our cadaver work now. But there isn't all that much wilderness in the Philly area! 

There are some places here and there where you might have 5000-10,000 acres of wilderness. But that's unusal and not a major source of calls. Our "wilderness" is usually either county or state parks of less than 500-1000 acres that directly borders on suburbia.

I don't think you'd be laughed out of a seminar. Depends on the purpose of the seminar too.

Craig


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

You would, however, probably have to test in off lead obedience to certify. Both NAPWDA and IPWDA have off lead obedience components to the certification test, with NAPWDA now being more comprehensive.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You would, however, probably have to test in off lead obedience to certify. Both NAPWDA and IPWDA have off lead obedience components to the certification test, with NAPWDA now being more comprehensive.


Lol, at our last napwda seminar, we had to do off lead group obedience. No one practices that way with hrd dogs. All 8 were in a sit stay, all handlers lined up across from the line of dogs. One handler was instructed to call her dog, the whole group came running :grin:


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You would, however, probably have to test in off lead obedience to certify. Both NAPWDA and IPWDA have off lead obedience components to the certification test, with NAPWDA now being more comprehensive.


NASAR only requires the CGC. But it kind of leaves a loop hole for an evaluator as one item says:

"7. Canine will be able to demonstrate obedience through its reaction to the handler‟s commands. "

This can be good and bad. Leaves wiggle room for an evaluator to be extra tough or extra easy on a team.

Craig


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Until I can trust a dog to work off-lead, I'll often let it drag either a 6-ft or 30-ft line. You've read the caveats above. I just came from working old graves in an area with lots of scrub and the line was truly a pain in the butt.
On the flip-side, the border patrol dogs are worked on a long-line A LOT as the border patrol considers them extremely valuable and the handler responsible for their cost. I've watched border patrol handlers work their dogs on long-line on rubble piles, in wilderness, etc. You do what you have to do. I prefer to have a good working relationship with the dog such that a line is not necessary at all. If you are working a case along a major highway, it just behooves using a line.
Now, to your situation, age is a consideration of starting the dog to a new specialty. Trailing is a much better progression to HRD than air scent as the dog already should be putting nose down. Many handlers see HRD as tissue-only, but the bulk of my searches are buried and scattered skeletal such that you should plan on training on tissue-free skeletal and dental with your dog for serious searches. Consider starting the dog on wet bones and teeth( distilled water) first and increasing difficulty over time with the sources drying out.

Good luck,

Jim Delbridge


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

We've worked teeth, some bloody hair, and cremains (just once on the cremains to see if he showed any interest, and it was stuff we had just picked up and never used before), and he has hit on all. Obviously the wet stuff he picked up scent on further out. 

His age is definately an issue I am aware of, and I may end up working him just for kicks to give me experience in another discipline (not making light of how hard those of you with working cadaver dogs work!!).

My team only requires CGC for internal certs for off lead dogs, which we havent done with him since its not required for our trailers since they all work on lead. I've seen whats required for NAPWDA, and we would truly have to work our butts off to pass that. He's a big jerk. We dont require external certs but we all do them anyways.

He and I have a pretty good relationship but he's a typical hound, and when he hits scent nothing I say gets past the exterior of those floppy ears. Although in all honesty we have never worked hard at the OB side of things. We can add that to our list of things to work on!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I would definitely do external certs with a cadaver dog and keep scrupulous training records. Of the SAR dogs, they are the ones who wind up in court. I have never been called buy my actual finds have only been drownings. 

Of course training just for water work is a huge benefit if you are near a body of water - though the thought of a bloodhound balancing on the front of a boat sends shivers down my spine. I am not sure I could handle the "view". You gotta admit they have the ugliest rear assemblies there.

Our calls tend to be water, scattered bones, and speculative searches for clandestine graves. There have been a handful of building and vehicle searches.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

mel boschwitz said:


> He and I have a pretty good relationship but he's a typical hound, and when he hits scent nothing I say gets past the exterior of those floppy ears. Although in all honesty we have never worked hard at the OB side of things. We can add that to our list of things to work on!


I think working hounds in OB is a big challenge, especially with regard to working scent. As you said, it seems that once they get focused on a scent, every thing disappears from their brain. Hats of to OB hound dogs! 

Thankfully I don't work a hound! As you indicated too, relationship is everything. I'd find it hard to believe mine would disappear from me for very long. Never has. If she doesn't check in or look for me at least every 5 minutes something is up. I know there is a problem. On the downside she doesn't range out as much as I'd like her to because of that. She is not as confident a dog as I would like. But again, for the suburbs of Philly she works fine cause I don't worry too much about her crossing a road or highway without me. If I was out west in BLM lands she'd be fine but wouldn't cover the ground like I'm sure those dog teams do.

Craig


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Nancy-since I do mostly trailers I am used to their rear ends. Lol..after many years you get used to it.

He has a definite nose for water work and has casually walked by water cadaver on shoreline, turned, grabbed it then walked out. We dont encourage the grabbing of course but we werent even paying attention. Now we know and its not been a problem since.

Craig-for a hound he and I have a good relationship but in the end he couldnt give a rats butt about me when hes on scent. One day we were doing short runs and I was careless and had dropped the line and somehow it got tangled up around my legs. Well, he took off, took me to the ground, dragged me across about 6ft of concrete (ripping my arm wide open). Finally the lead came loose and he was gone, running the trail without me-about 100 yards. He never looked back, and the fact that he,was dragging me never fazed him. With that kind of attitude I would be hesitant to turn him loose, but like I said, I've never worked on it either.

Nancy-IF he gets MR we would definately do external certs. I think independent certification is very very important.

Realistically it seems that working on lead doable, but a huge hassle and would greatly effect our productivity. I think working him probably a good idea for the experience, but need to be honest about our ever being MR.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Water work takes a while to train (working from a boat) but it is a valuable service and one place where a cadaver dog can help save lives. Recovery diving is dangerous (it is real dangerous here because all our lakes are dammed woodlands with trees and houses and all kinds of nonsense at the bottom and the water is so dark they train with blackout masks. It is all by feel). Dive time is also very expensive. You can help them bring up a body before it floats and gets ravaged by fish which is much nicer for the family and much nicer for the coroner to figure out what happened etc.

I am amazed at how spot on the dogs have been at pinpointing the bodies. 

I think scattered bones would be a nightmare but clandestine grave work would probably not be that bad because the search areas we have had for that have been very small.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

If a dog team does a lot of shoreline HR work, the boat is an easy transition. Many of the current "experts" out there seem to make it a lot harder than it is. I got to work my young dog on boats for two days last week. I'd done lots of shoreline with him. This was his first time in a boat. He was walking the boat to stay in scent, whining and barking in scent, and did a touch when he called strongest scent. They myth many seem to be putting out there that water work is complicated just floors me, but then many in live work do dabble in water work. My dogs don't need buoys to "think live", don't need a diver to think "live." They just do dead and know what scent means.

But I do understand that many out there have made a career out of teaching water work as complicated stuff.

Oh, one of the sources got cut loose ( we don't use scent machines) and the puppy was the first to work it and locate it. Subsequent more experienced dogs all validated his target.....really, water work is fun but not a big deal if all the proper foundations have been laid on shore.

Jim

(and yes, this is a pet peeve of mine.)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Delbridge said:


> If a dog team does a lot of shoreline HR work, the boat is an easy transition. Many of the current "experts" out there seem to make it a lot harder than it is.
> 
> 
> Jim
> ...


That seems to extend well beyond cadaver training. How many times can it be said; dog training just isn't rocket science. 

DFrost


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