# Any advantage to decoy height?



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Just because its hot out and i'm bored - out of curiousity, are there any advantages or disadvantages to being a short decoy in a suit? I think the only other person i've seen whos about my height in a suit is Debbie Skinners husband. :smile:

I'm 5' 6", with a sleeve, I got to really pull the front legs up off the ground to take away the dog's leverage.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> Just because its hot out and i'm bored - out of curiousity, are there any advantages or disadvantages to being a short decoy in a suit? I think the only other person i've seen whos about my height in a suit is Debbie Skinners husband. :smile:
> 
> I'm 5' 6", with a sleeve, I got to really pull the front legs up off the ground to take away the dog's leverage.


I think everyone has to pull the front legs up to take away a dogs leverage.

Advantages:

less physically intimidating to the dog

Big strong dogs can exude more power over you 

Lower center of gravity

Possible increased speed and reaction time, depending.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Unless your stupid, using your BRAIN is the most important thing for a decoy. Just get in the suit and work dogs. Any shortcomings (short, tall, skinny, heavy etc.) you discover, you will figure out a way to overcome with your BRAIN. "Ignorance can be fixed. Stupidity is forever."

After all, what are you going to do about being 5'6" anyway?!

JUST DO IT.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I'd like to think I'm pretty smart. But I'm 5'1", 115lbs. I can do some blind work, and I even do my best at driving a dog. I have trouble slipping a sleeve because it goes all the way past my shoulder.

While I totally appreciate your enthusiasm, no willpower of mine will keep me from being knocked out cold catching a dog on any sort of long bite.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> Unless your stupid, using your BRAIN is the most important thing for a decoy. Just get in the suit and work dogs. Any shortcomings (short, tall, skinny, heavy etc.) you discover, you will figure out a way to overcome with your BRAIN. "Ignorance can be fixed. Stupidity is forever."
> 
> After all, what are you going to do about being 5'6" anyway?!
> 
> JUST DO IT.


Well, currently, i'm not in an area where ring is available - so I couldn't "just do it" if I wanted to. 

I've learned with my BRAIN that typically the fastest way to learn something regardless of my short statured-ness (yeah, if thats even a word) is to seek out those who have much more experience than I, and to draw any advantage I can from their experience.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm 5'8" and 210 pounds. Size have 0 to do with it. I've seen 6 ft. plus guys who aren't as athletic as me so height has nothing to do with it. It's how athletic you are. Joby, I have to disagree with you a little. Presence has more to do with intimidating a dog than decoy size. I've seen big guys that can't back down a squirrel, but that goes both ways. I just think it's more about presence. I do think the lower center of gravity has helped me over the years. I also think that being short has saved my back a time or two. Plus it doesn't hurt as bad if I hit the ground; I don't have as far to fall LOL.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> I'm 5'8" and 210 pounds. Size have 0 to do with it. I've seen 6 ft. plus guys who aren't as athletic as me so height has nothing to do with it. It's how athletic you are. Joby, I have to disagree with you a little. Presence has more to do with intimidating a dog than decoy size. I've seen big guys that can't back down a squirrel, but that goes both ways. I just think it's more about presence. I do think the lower center of gravity has helped me over the years. I also think that being short has saved my back a time or two. Plus it doesn't hurt as bad if I hit the ground; I don't have as far to fall LOL.


I know Adam, presence is everything, and I do agree, of course.

Size alone is not the only factor, but size alone can be a factor to some dogs and puppies. That I am sure we can also agree on. I am sure that is why you said, a little  Big giant dudes can be intimidating to dogs for sure, they have to be more careful when working pups and younger or weaker dogs I think...

Depends on the quality of the dog and training, and exposure...

"Presence" being equal, larger person I think will be more intimidating,
I look at it like this, I think any of us would be more intimidated by an angry 6'5" - 6'6" 250-300 lb guy, rightly or wrongly, than an angry 5'6 guy, if they both are looking to kick some ass...so I think it goes about the same for dogs..

I have a friend that is over 6'5 about 450 lbs, maybe even 500, who knows for sure, he hasn't been on a freight scale lately.., you should see how some dogs and puppies act around him when he comes to training..just walking around... 

his Indian name is "He who blocks out the Sun", I do make him take bites from my dogs, just for exposure, although he is not a skilled decoy at all...

I liked using my friend Steve at a few of my events, he is a mountain too... 6'5 280, I saw dogs gather and put on the breaks when they finally got to him on a 75 yard send, that have never done that...He looks normal size from that distance, but the closer they got, the bigger he looked. 

He also said when he used to do more SCH helper work, he had dogs bail on the long bites, and even freak out when they rounded the blind..even at bigger events too, dogs that never did those things before. He is not known for intense "presence", to me and some others he is kind of a softie, especially in training, doesnt want to scare the dogs I dont think  

here is a pic of him and my dog at 75 lbs. You tell me if he could possibly be more intimidating than a 5'6" guy to a weaker dog in a courage test..









and at the 2012 WUSV Selection trial. barely fits in the blind..LOL


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> I'm 5'8" and 210 pounds. Size have 0 to do with it. I've seen 6 ft. plus guys who aren't as athletic as me so height has nothing to do with it. It's how athletic you are. Joby, I have to disagree with you a little. Presence has more to do with intimidating a dog than decoy size. I've seen big guys that can't back down a squirrel, but that goes both ways. I just think it's more about presence. I do think the lower center of gravity has helped me over the years. I also think that being short has saved my back a time or two. Plus it doesn't hurt as bad if I hit the ground; I don't have as far to fall LOL.


I used to train with a club with mostly Rottis and I found that with a big, strong, heavy dog, my height was a slight disadvantage. I can still drive them no prob, but it can be alot of work. I'm 5' 6" 155lbs, I can move pretty good, I focus largely on olympic type lifts and crossfit, but when a dog who weighs 3/4 my weight is hanging off my arm, its a full body workout.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Good Lord, that is a large man! I guess I've never thought of it in the context you put it in. Yes, most people are more intimidated by a big guy than a smaller guy. I guess I never equated that to dogs to be honest. But I will say that's a realistic point. BTW, Joby, has your dog always got that smile on its face?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> Good Lord, that is a large man! I guess I've never thought of it in the context you put it in. Yes, most people are more intimidated by a big guy than a smaller guy. I guess I never equated that to dogs to be honest. But I will say that's a realistic point. BTW, Joby, has your dog always got that smile on its face?


That is not a smile, that is the "retarded look"

she is happy most of the time, even when I am punching her and zapping her...when it is time to go into the crate for the night though, then she looks like I just kicked her in the stomach and hit her with a 2 X 4 ....


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Im also à smal Guy, 5,6. 150.
The plus is when it comes to trick the dog. Get down fast and shit like that.
I also feel i can work longer, but thats becaus the big guys are almost always fat to 

But NO I do not think its good to be short as à decoy. Guy 6-10 cm longer than me is still fast, and he can have 10 kg more muscel and have à eayer time working the dogs. Bigger than that I ges it is no adwantage.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Im also à smal Guy, 5,6. 150.
> The plus is when it comes to trick the dog. Get down fast and shit like that.
> I also feel i can work longer, but thats becaus the big guys are almost always fat to
> 
> But NO I do not think its good to be short as à decoy. *Guy 6-10 cm longer than me* is still fast, and he can have 10 kg more muscel and have à eayer time working the dogs. Bigger than that I ges it is no adwantage.


I dont think length has anything to do with it, its how skilled you are


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## nathan cram (Jun 9, 2008)

im 6ft6 and train dogs ofter i find the only time i hve trouble is when i am working a dogs grip on the upper body i have to do it on my knees other wise im bent in all kinds of positions to keep the dog in a good postion to punch in once thats sorted out its all fun and games 

i also find being tall dogs that i do upperbody bites with tend to have more confidence when working on other decoys


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Ofcaus hight has somthing to do with it. If you are à bit longer you have à easyer time working à heavy dog. If 2 peopel are ecauly skild the guy that is around 180cm 75-80 kg Will have à easyer time working à 35 kg dog than me with My 170cm 68 kg. Thats why we compete in difrent weight clases in almost every fighting ore powerlifting sport.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Ofcaus hight has somthing to do with it. If you are à bit longer you have à easyer time working à heavy dog. If 2 peopel are ecauly skild the guy that is around 180cm 75-80 kg Will have à easyer time working à 35 kg dog than me with My 170cm 68 kg. Thats why we compete in difrent weight clases in almost every fighting ore powerlifting sport.


andreas, my comment was meant to be funny, I apologize for the confusion.

In English, we would usually say taller (height) not longer (length).


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I wouldnt say height plays a role. I would say that cardio, arm strength, and back strength plays an important role. Cardio is the biggest especially when its hot and muggy out and your working a lot of dogs you need to be able to recover quickly between dogs. Back strength is important because, at least in my experience you come across a lot of dogs that like to pull and you need that strength to pull the dog up and not allow him to pull. Arm strength isnt as big a factor but it does help being able to lift a dog up and keep pressure against larger dogs. if you cant even curl twenty pounds its gonna be alot harder to lift even a small 45 pound mali up then it is if you can curl 50. JMO


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## chad paquin (Apr 16, 2010)

Men from doing crossfit for the past year I have found it Def helps when working the dogs. Makes your core stronger and all strength come from your core.
Def think bigger decoy/helper could freak a dog out if they have never seen one. But like someone said size isn't everything. That's one reason its good to work with many decoys.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

sam wilks said:


> I wouldnt say height plays a role. I would say that cardio, arm strength, and back strength plays an important role. Cardio is the biggest especially when its hot and muggy out and your working a lot of dogs you need to be able to recover quickly between dogs. Back strength is important because, at least in my experience you come across a lot of dogs that like to pull and you need that strength to pull the dog up and not allow him to pull. Arm strength isnt as big a factor but it does help being able to lift a dog up and keep pressure against larger dogs. if you cant even curl twenty pounds its gonna be alot harder to lift even a small 45 pound mali up then it is if you can curl 50. JMO


So I just need to start working out more and I'll be able to life my own weight in dog? Sounds pretty easy!


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Interesting. I never really considered the intimidation factor. 



Joby Becker said:


> I dont think length has anything to do with it, its how skilled you are


HAHAHA...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Adam Swilling said:


> I'm 5'8" and 210 pounds. Size have 0 to do with it. I've seen 6 ft. plus guys who aren't as athletic as me so height has nothing to do with it. It's how athletic you are. Joby, I have to disagree with you a little. Presence has more to do with intimidating a dog than decoy size. I've seen big guys that can't back down a squirrel, but that goes both ways. I just think it's more about presence. I do think the lower center of gravity has helped me over the years. I also think that being short has saved my back a time or two. Plus it doesn't hurt as bad if I hit the ground; I don't have as far to fall LOL.


 Adam I would agree 100% here.
Size doesn't matter if the decoy isn't properly reading the dog and working it in and out of its strengths. In addirion, just putting the suit on doesn't make you safe, it keeps you safe but there's also the dog factor. Safe decoys are mindfull of leg, sleeve, and upper target presentations. They know how much effort it takes to bring out the dog's best!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Skill and timing are the equalizers. Those being equal, the taller guy has the advantage.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> So I just need to start working out more and I'll be able to life my own weight in dog? Sounds pretty easy!


yes, contact this girl, she has got it down pat


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Dont forget to wear shorts and sandals


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm on it. When is she hosting her seminar?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

He he joby. Sorry I mist that one


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> He he joby. Sorry I mist that one


yeah, not gonna start talking about the advantages and disadvantages of decoy "length"


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

You can lower yr centre of gravity by increasing yr butt mass or belly diameter.


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

LOL Funny how taller people claim no difference... The biggest problem I have is when giving a inside bite, the dogs mouth is RIGHT at your face. So when and IF he re-adjust to re bite it's easy to grab your face. That and taller dogs will bite in a downward motion and really try to push you over. So protect ya face!................. LMAO!!!! 5'6 hahaha I wish I was.. Keep the short jokes to a min.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I have been a 5ft tall 120lb helper, all the way through a 6ft 260lb helper. And every size has it's advantages and disadvantages. But overall there is a sweet spot for both length and girth. For me it's about 6ft, 205lb.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Garland, if the dog is on a bite and regrips there is a problem with targeting. when the dog is on the bite you should not have to worry about getting bit anywhere else. Yes there are accidents but it should not be a common thing in training. add more pressure to the leash to fix that.
Howard its not just the decoys responsibility to stay safe it is also the handlers responsibility to know where his dog is at and not do stupid things like long sends when the dog has no targeting and does not stay on a bite! You always have advice about how people should train and you say you train certain ways that I know for a fact you don't. I keep reading this sutff and after a while it gets old!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sam it's called a FORUM! Opinions and imput are what makes it a forum...hello!!!
Don't get me started about dogs and YOU...unless you want to air your mishaps with critters.

*Back to post...*I train how I train. We continue to train in the methods that work for us and our dogs. 
Any dog without canines has to shift for more fabric or a better bite. The very reason canines are used.

When given a choice, I like a taller helper who presents the sleeve high. Skill and timing are key to the decoy/helper just as the handler following directions with the development of a training session.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Please do air my mishaps Howard. Ive never had anyone quit training with me have you? shifting for a better bite? Pushing in on the grip is what a properly developed dog would do to get a better bite not munching all over the decoy! Your comments go far beyond opinion. Practice what you preach!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This is NOT the place for ANYONE to pull in anyone's dirty laundry. 
If anyone really feels the need then take it to PMs with your "discussions". 

WDF Mods


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

Oh, I'm sorry Sam.... I thought the question was about the problems a short decoy faces... I must have read it wrong..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> Garland, if the dog is on a bite and regrips there is a problem with targeting. when the dog is on the bite you should not have to worry about getting bit anywhere else.


I dont think this is always a targeting issue myself. It can be for sure, but there are other factors.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I think their is advantages to both, a big guy can lean back & not be too intimidating until required. The shorter man (or woman) can really have the advantage of bringing along a young dog or one that maybe needs some confidence (SL I like a big guy who is really fast providing a high bite (commitment) and usually if someone is moving fast size won't matter. I'm 5'11" and caught the top working Rott years ago DVG trial that was 140# in the long bite, talk about a thrill. Now I just want to know how Joby knows so much about the length thing???? Enquiring minds Ha Ha!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> I think their is advantages to both, a big guy can lean back & not be too intimidating until required. The shorter man (or woman) can really have the advantage of bringing along a young dog or one that maybe needs some confidence (SL I like a big guy who is really fast providing a high bite (commitment) and usually if someone is moving fast size won't matter. I'm 5'11" and caught the top working Rott years ago DVG trial that was 140# in the long bite, talk about a thrill. Now I just want to know how Joby knows so much about the length thing???? Enquiring minds Ha Ha!


could start a thread about the advantages of an average sized decoy and start over.. less intimidating for one...easier to work with, more versatile.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Garland Whorley said:


> LOL Funny how taller people claim no difference... The biggest problem I have is when giving a inside bite, the dogs mouth is RIGHT at your face. So when and IF he re-adjust to re bite it's easy to grab your face. That and taller dogs will bite in a downward motion and really try to push you over. So protect ya face!................. LMAO!!!! 5'6 hahaha I wish I was.. Keep the short jokes to a min.


So rebites ARE something dogs can do! And when they lack canines, it makes the gripping task harder. Glad I'm 5-11 and ugly. They'll never get this close to my face Garland!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So rebites ARE something dogs can do! And when they lack canines, it makes the gripping task harder. Glad I'm 5-11 and ugly. They'll never get this close to my face Garland!


do you work in a suit often?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Advantage...*acting*. With the height issue being only a few inches in many cases, isn't the real advantage how well the decoy/helper ACTS or reacts to the dog?

As younger puppies or dogs come to the training venue <PPD, Sport>, I think a good *actor, *one who is more mindfull of K-9 safety, is more useful than the difference of a few inches in height.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> do you work in a suit often?


 I have, three piece wool, with pin stripes!:mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> do you work in a suit often?


Three piece wool with pin stripes...:mrgreen:
I have but the dogs we have now in our club are younger and do better with the sleeve. Got something to get rid of???:-k


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

no Howard, was just asking becuase you said you are 5'11 and that dogs wont get that close to your face. Happens all the time in the suit if you target high inside. I have been guilty of tickling the dogs face with my beard while biting.

as far as being ugly, I think that can make some dogs want to bite the face more...especially if the person is real ugly, and worries them...


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey Howard, It isn't fun LOL However, me standing a strapping 5'2 on a excellent day..I have learned to adjust quickly. Catching everything from 60 to 175lbs(central asian). I must be crazy.....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Garland Whorley said:


> Hey Howard, It isn't fun LOL However, me standing a strapping 5'2 on a excellent day..I have learned to adjust quickly. Catching everything from 60 to 175lbs(central asian). I must be crazy.....


Garland

What do you weigh? I you have enough weight and a low center of gravity you'd be more stable then a taller decoy.
As far as you being crazy.........that's a whole different topic


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

150lbs. Not much at all.... I have to give all the credit to my old school mentor. Teaching me the hard way.. Making me respect the work, earn my way and be prepared for all..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Garland Whorley said:


> 150lbs. Not much at all.... I have to give all the credit to my old school mentor. Teaching me the hard way.. Making me respect the work, earn my way and be prepared for all..


any pics of you with a huge dog biting? would love to see one, just for kicks


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> no Howard, was just asking becuase you said you are 5'11 and that dogs wont get that close to your face. Happens all the time in the suit if you target high inside. I have been guilty of tickling the dogs face with my beard while biting.
> 
> as far as being ugly, I think that can make some dogs want to bite the face more...especially if the person is real ugly, and worries them...


Too funny...a SOLID 5'-11" when I'm not tired and doubled over!
:-o


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Garland Whorley said:


> 150lbs. Not much at all.... I have to give all the credit to my old school mentor. Teaching me the hard way.. Making me respect the work, earn my way and be prepared for all..


Garland,

One of the strongest and most intimidating Schutzhund Decoys I know is Tim Cruser and he's not that much taller then you. Skill and attitude can add a lot of inches to your height ;-)


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

Joby i'm sure some are around...Will look for some... Thomas, I do have to make up for it in other techniques. They will teach you FAST !!!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I remember seeing a video somewhere of a very small guy catching a huge frikkin presa canario (I think) on the shoulder...cant find it, wish I could...


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

prob. was me


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Garland Whorley said:


> prob. was me


got a link?. the dog pretty much swallowed the guys entire shoulder area...


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

tan presa?? Brindle?? Just did a sleeve bite today with a Central Asian, looking for the one in a suit.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-bWVOaJ1us


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

nah man not you..brindle.... pretty sure the guy was hispanic...that is a big fukking dog 

checked out the vids...looks like you are having a blast man, congrats


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