# How do you bring out aggression?



## Mike Burke

Was having a convo with a buddy of mine about the different methods of
bringing out aggression in a dog that lacks in this dept...What methods do
you guys and girls use?....Also would like to hear the methods you agree with and disagree with.


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## Al Curbow

Mike, what do you mean, aggression for sport?


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## Mike Burke

I apologize... yes for sport


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## Jeff Oehlsen

At what point do you need this??? Some dogs have this, and what is the point???? It is either there or not, and anything more is a trained response, and pretty much crap. Sorry.


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## Mike Burke

Yes... I agree.. not all dogs have it... and then we need to bring it out in the dog.... For instance the H&B. When aggression for the man will bring the intense barking in the blind.

Not every one has the dog that has natural aggression towards the man... Maybe your one of the lucky ones that has not had to deal with this. Either way it must be brought out... and there are ways of doing this... I wanted to know what some people do to bring it out.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

But the dog doesn't have it, so what is the point????

If the dog is just faking it in the H&B which he would be, it is really obvious. Why bother??


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## Bob Scott

Many dogs that initially show a little fear or avoidance can be brought "up" with correct training if the dog has natural aggression (genetics). 
It's just building confidence in them. 
If they don't have it naturally you, most likely, will wind up with a nerve bag. 
Even many good, young dogs will hesitate with a new helper. Thes dogs should get thorugh it with a few expieriences on new helpers. 
A dog that has a "trained response" because of a weakness will show it's true nature with new helpers that put more pressure on it then it's used to.


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## Andres Martin

Mike's question is very interesting...because it does not only apply to nerve bags. It also applies to very confident, social dogs. My first Malinois didn't react aggressively to anything, and he bit a bunch of people really hard without aggression. That dog had no nerve problems, was totally stable, good with people, kids, other animals. He was very friendly. His guard - from the KNPV program - had anticipation written all over it. It was VERY intense. I tried a bunch of things to teach him to get pissed off on cue, and it always went back to anticipation after a while.

He only got pissed off when the people he was biting hurt him back. That's my answer, and I'm stickin' to it. Pain, threat, frustration...coupled with victory.


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## Greg Long

To bring out aggression in a dog simply have the decoy put pressure on him.If the decoy is someone he is used to he may have to feel a little pain.If the decoy is a stranger then a stare should do it.This is assuming the decoy isnt a dumbass.Weak dogs wont be able to take much of it.Submit to ANY FORWARD movement on the dogs part.It may only be an inch but to the dog its a mile.


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## Khoi Pham

I use conflict to bring out aggression, kind of like the handler unfairly correcting a strong dog and he got pissed of and bite the handler, but we direct the aggresion toward the helper instead. 
Assuming the dog has a solid bark and hold, and not in the begining stage of b&h training, and that he was trained properly, balance in prey and defense.
I send him into the blind for the bark and hold, and have a long line hook to the prong colar, as he is doing his barking, I will give him a pop, and immediatly the decoy will crack the whip, the dog is thinking that I am doing this correctly but why I am being corrected, this created conflict and pissed him off, that will bring out the aggression and as the decoy crack the whip immediatly after the correction, the aggression is channel toward him instead of me the handler. You have to be careful that you and the decoy works in unity, otherwise the dog might turn around and bite you instead, and also not correcting too hard that might bring his drive down, after a few session you should be able to know how much pop to apply to bring out the most aggresion in the bark, on every session, decoy should let him bite and put up a good fight then let him win when the agression level is highest. 
Good luck.


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## Mike Burke

You have people who train in your club for a hobbie...who just want to trial their dogs and get their titles... an you have people who want to compete at a high level... no matter what sport..... Every club has both.

Now if your dealing with a person who is training for hobby... and they have a dog that lacks aggression...what do you do...say what's the point and tell them it is not worth your time? Not me... especially if the person is dedicated... your going to bring this dog to it's full potential as best you can.... And most will say....Well this person should get a new dog. As a helper/decoy these are the dogs we learn the most on imo. 

To build aggression... We will tie this dog out with dogs that are high caliber.... work the high caliber dogs.. and frustrate the dog that lacks.... make misses.... go back to the high caliber dog & work it..... when the dog that lacks shows you the right behavior you give it a grip.... 
We will also make a aggression by sending the dog to a helper that is in the bushes and do a H&B in the bushes.... have the handler come in pull the dog out and the helper cracks the whip or loads the dog another way and runs back to the blind and the dog does another H&B in the blind and you give the dog the grip when it shows you the right behavior.... you can give the grip in the blind or outside the blind.

We do both methods and more with all our dogs in the club. Always good to go back to the basics with the advanced dogs.... breaks up the monotony and the dog has fun.

I am not giving a training lesson here.... Most on this board are more knowledgeable than me... there are plenty of ways to make aggression in a dog that lacks or one that does not(like Khoi Pham wrote).... But to say what's the point is silly..because not every dog in the club has whole package. 

Or there is always flanking.. :twisted: ... :lol:

I apologize if my original post was not clear.


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## Andres Martin

Mike...I simply want to point out that dog training clubs ultimately should be about people having fun, and it's very cool to have a creative decoy that's willing to put in the time and the sweat...to build up less than stellar dogs. Those dogs also teach the most. Kudos to ya.


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## Woody Taylor

Mike Burke said:


> Now if your dealing with a person who is training for hobby... and they have a dog that lacks aggression...what do you do...say what's the point and tell them it is not worth your time? Not me... especially if the person is dedicated... your going to bring this dog to it's full potential as best you can.... And most will say....Well this person should get a new dog. As a helper/decoy these are the dogs we learn the most on imo.
> ...
> We do both methods and more with all our dogs in the club. Always good to go back to the basics with the advanced dogs.... breaks up the monotony and the dog has fun.


I know you're looking for training feedback, Mike, but I wanted to hijack long enough to ask...if it's just club fun training, is there a reason why the dog needs aggression brought out? Just wondering if it's not natural to the dog, if it's worth messing with, assuming it's a newb owner who might not know how to respond if that aggression shows up somewhere off the training field.

Just wondering, I am not being critical, I think about this with my own dog (I am talking about sport dogs, not anything else). She's very high prey but not aggressive at all. I don't see any reason to put a lot of pressure on her, my only goal is to have fun. It would be nice to get rid of her high-pitched yips, but...

Is bringing out aggression fun for the dogs who aren't inherently capable of it?


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Woody Taylor said:


> Is bringing out aggression fun for the dogs who aren't inherently capable of it?


Depends on the dog. Some dogs are turned on by pain. It's the decoys job to judge, n only a good decoy with quick reactions to a dogs forwardness should attempt it.


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## Mike Burke

Good post Woody...

In our club we have several high level competition dogs....We have a nice mix of people who train for hobby and people who train for the big competitions.

The members who train for hobby want to get their titles... but they want to get the most points they can during a trial.... So say the hobby handler does not fair to well in the protection portion...does not get the scores he/she wanted...the dog lacks some aggression... If the handler wants to bring this out in their dog we will work on it.... if they don't want to bring out the aggression.....We don't do it. If we do it and the dog does not respond to it well we stop before damage is done.... we make everything prey again.

As far as newbie handlers.....in our club we pair them up with a more experienced trainer/handler. Team work is everything. 

Also....As far as it carring over into other area's off the field.... Yes it can happen. It can happen with a high prey driven dog as well... Their animals, something can happen at any time with any breed... It also comes down to what kind of control we have over our dogs. Control meaning OB... or we control the contact the dog has with other people and dogs. Everyone who is training in dog sports involving bite work always run the chance of something happing... to us control over the dog is paramount.

Is bringing out aggression in a dog who is not inherently aggressive fun for the dog?.... I think it depends on how you go about bringing out. If the dog begins to understand it and is gaining confidence from it and getting praise from it's handler... I believe it becomes fun for them.... You as the helper/decoy have to know how to read the dog(like Mike S mentioned)...when to add some pressure and when take the pressure away.... It is not fun for the dog if your stressing the dog out.. I have heard of dogs that have pissed themsleves from being worked the wrong way. That is why you need to do this with an experienced helper/decoy.... This why having an experienced group of trainers is so important.... This is reason why I have surrounded myself with some of the best and travel a total of four hours to train.


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## Woody Taylor

Nah, I hear you, I had the bad fortune to finally see poor defense work done on two dogs that were neither ready for it nor enjoying it, kind of left a bad taste in my mouth about "eliciting aggression" in club-level dogs that I'm still thinking through.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Woody Taylor said:


> Nah, I hear you, I had the bad fortune to finally see poor defense work done on two dogs that were neither ready for it nor enjoying it, kind of left a bad taste in my mouth about "eliciting aggression" in club-level dogs that I'm still thinking through.


I wouldn't worry about it. "Bad" stuff happens every day in the dog world, theres not much you can do about it other than avoiding it and not allowing it to happen to your dog.


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## Bob Scott

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Woody Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, I hear you, I had the bad fortune to finally see poor defense work done on two dogs that were neither ready for it nor enjoying it, kind of left a bad taste in my mouth about "eliciting aggression" in club-level dogs that I'm still thinking through.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't worry about it. "Bad" stuff happens every day in the dog world, theres not much you can do about it other than avoiding it and not allowing it to happen to your dog.
Click to expand...

I think we all agree that it takes experienced helper/decoy work to do this properly. Unfortunately to many nubees to bite work can't or don't recognise what is good or bad. 
To often a new person goes along with what the TD tells them is right. 
In Woody's instance his gut told him things weren't right. Not everyone will have the sense to recognise that.
Course Woody probably used some kinda math formula to figure it out. :roll: :lol: :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> To often a new person goes along with what the TD tells them is right. ... In Woody's instance his gut told him things weren't right. Not everyone will have the sense to recognise that. ... Course Woody probably used some kinda math formula to figure it out. :roll: :lol: :wink:


On an electronic gadget.


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## Woody Taylor

Mike Burke said:


> Is bringing out aggression in a dog who is not inherently aggressive fun for the dog?.... I think it depends on how you go about bringing out. If the dog begins to understand it and is gaining confidence from it and getting praise from it's handler... I believe it becomes fun for them....


I don't know how _true_ aggression would be fun for a _weak_ dog. I think...to a good post Jeff O made a few days ago...that repetitive attempts at pressuring a dog in a club atmosphere are gonna teach it quick that it is a game, and the posturing they do there is show more than anything else. A smart dog would figure it out, a smart dog is gonna read into the posture of its handler, the before/after actions of the decoy, and realize this is not a "legit" situation.

Maybe I am giving a smart dog too much credit. 

Or maybe some dogs recover from it/deal with it better than I think. I am embarassed to say that I pressured the crap out of my dog when she was a puppy...intense tugwork on tile, on top of her, slapping her side, a lot of this while she was teething. Wasn't until I talked to Bob and others when I first started learning about correct training that I understood what I was doing and how screwy it was. Took me awhile to get Annie straight after that, I am very lucky that she is as stable and confident as she is today, but she's still got a lot of baggage from me dinking around when she was little.

I do think (this isn't anything about your club or your training, Mike) that clubs should be very upfront about defense promotion with newb handlers, take time to explain what's going on and what they hope to accomplish by doing it. And what to look for outside of training, as I do think it could get out of hand a lot more than extreme prey. To earlier points, people are way too intimidated to ask this stuff of TDs.

I do gotta say I don't really get defense promotion for club-level sport dogs. Probably my ignorance, I just think it's a box that probably doesn't need to be opened all that much. Annie's never had that much pressure put on her...repetitive stick hits on her harness, a few to the side, while on leg bites...but I don't see the need to pressure her hard.


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## Mike Burke

I hear ya Woody.... It is not for every dog and not every owner wants it done to their dog. If a person does not like how their dog is being worked..... They need to speak up and say something.... But like someone mentioned... a lot of people do not know how to recognize garbage training done by hacks... and there are ton of them out there.


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## Bob Scott

This is where a long discussion between a TD and a new handler is a must. 
There needs to be a complete understanding of what the handle/owner wants from his or her dog. 
Absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to just have fun with their dog. Prey training only! No defence! If both can't agree with that then they should part ways. 
Unfortunately dog training is often overshadowed by business and money.


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## Mike Burke

Very good points Woody & Bob. Could not agree with you more about TD's.


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## Greg Long

> I don't know how true aggression would be fun for a weak dog. I think...to a good post Jeff O made a few days ago...that repetitive attempts at pressuring a dog in a club atmosphere are gonna teach it quick that it is a game, and the posturing they do there is show more than anything else. A smart dog would figure it out, a smart dog is gonna read into the posture of its handler, the before/after actions of the decoy, and realize this is not a "legit" situation.


 If the dog is having fun then it is a game to the dog..period.Even if the dog is displaying aggressive behaviors it is still a game.A dog can switch back and forth between it being a game and it being a serious situation much faster than a person can.
In Sch it is desirable to see a touch of seriousness in certain situations mainly the B and H.This gives the performance balance...but thats just my take.
A real situation is stressful for everyone involved, the dog included.All involved want it to be over as quickly as possible.Fun should be the farthest thing from the dog's or the handler's mind.The ability to think and react properly under stress is one of the key factors in a positive outcome of the situation.
The problem with the sports and training methods we have today is that they are a major excuse people use to breed and sell pups.Meanwhile those same training methods allow weak dogs to be titled and therefore breedworthy in some peoples eyes.
I think you should go out and bring the dog you have to the highest level you can but if the behavior you are looking for isnt there...... :roll: 
Dont let anyone do anything to your dog you are not comfortable with.If you dont know the person about to work your dog ask them to tell you exactly what is going to happen.



> Maybe I am giving a smart dog too much credit.


Nope Woody you are not giving a dog too much credit, in fact a dog that has a sound mind and body should always know the difference.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:To build aggression... We will tie this dog out with dogs that are high caliber.... work the high caliber dogs.. and frustrate the dog that lacks.... make misses.... go back to the high caliber dog & work it..... when the dog that lacks shows you the right behavior you give it a grip.... 
We will also make a aggression by sending the dog to a helper that is in the bushes and do a H&B in the bushes.... have the handler come in pull the dog out and the helper cracks the whip or loads the dog another way and runs back to the blind and the dog does another H&B in the blind and you give the dog the grip when it shows you the right behavior.... you can give the grip in the blind or outside the blind. 

So by definition, what you are looking at is frustration given a voice. This is why I got out of Sch, so many people think that frustration is aggression.

How can a dog show aggression in the HB??? Why would you want to create an artificial presentation from the dog???

This is about wether or not the dog can inhibit himself and maintain drive, and by teaching this frustration, and calling it aggression, you do the breed diservice not to mention confusing the crap out of n00bs. There shoud be intesity, and inhibition. Naturally. I don't know where the "aggression" crap started, but what a mess it has made.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to just have fun with their dog. Prey training only! No defence! If both can't agree with that then they should part ways. 


Defense thresholds are tricky, but to say that anyone trains their dog in just prey is silly. There are dogs that work in defense all on their own, and enjoy it, mostly because they are not all defense. These are nice dogs to work with.

I see so many dogs with intense prey drive being worked by a decoy that thinks he is illiciting defense. Silly Rabbit. Dog would look the same if worked with prey motions.

The other day I heard that a former club member had catagorized her dogs as being good for specific sports. That is a good one. Sadly, she is training with the same person that told her the dog didn't want to pay the game. Amazing how the blind follow the blind in the dog world.


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:Absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to just have fun with their dog. Prey training only! No defence! If both can't agree with that then they should part ways.
> 
> 
> Defense thresholds are tricky, but to say that anyone trains their dog in just prey is silly. There are dogs that work in defense all on their own, and enjoy it, mostly because they are not all defense. These are nice dogs to work with.
> 
> I see so many dogs with intense prey drive being worked by a decoy that thinks he is illiciting defense. Silly Rabbit. Dog would look the same if worked with prey motions.
> 
> The other day I heard that a former club member had catagorized her dogs as being good for specific sports. That is a good one. Sadly, she is training with the same person that told her the dog didn't want to pay the game. Amazing how the blind follow the blind in the dog world.


Jeff, I do understand what your saying. My point was if a person doesn't like what's going on with their dog then they shouldn't be doing it. 
A dog working in prey can/will fool a lot of people. That was my comment about Nubee's not recognizing what they are looking at. I'll happily add many decoys/helpers to that.
It's the people/decoy/helper/ yadda, yadda, that can't recognize a dog that is in avoidance because it can't handle defence. 
This is all that "bringing out the defence" bs in a dog that can't handle it. 
That's pretty much where we started.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is the funniest part of watching Sch decoys work the dog in the blind. Like they are helping anything :lol:


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## Bob Scott

That's a whole nuther topic. 
I'm also a non believer on how certain rythmic barking in the blind can "tell" a judge if the dog is in defence. 
I've seen dogs with what looks like great H&B but knowing the dogs, I know it's bs.
Same with some dogs that have a crappy H&B. IMHO, it doesn't denote a weak dog. 
In MOST sport training, teaching the H&B is just teaching another routine for the dog.
For me, I'm happy with that because I don't need a dog for PP. 
I prefer a bull for that. A Taurus!


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## Jerry Lyda

Defense table


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Grab the dog by the balls, run away, then act like you're gonna pinch his balls again... I'll bet that'll bring out some defense


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## Greg Long

This is silly drive talk again.It's much too confusing for the experts much less the noobs.A dog can show aggression but not defense.A dog can also show aggression but not prey.


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## Andres Martin

> Pain, threat, frustration...coupled with victory.


At the end of the day, agitation lines simply make dogs bark, not show aggression. Putting the dog in bushes may increase the dog's level of anxiety - if he's not environmentally comfortable - but it doesn't ellicit aggression. His bark may sound different. His expressions and postures, too. True aggression stems from social dominance, plus self-confidence, only...not from defense. To get aggression from a dominant dog is easier. Albeit obviously you can teach a dog to display aggressive behaviors by means of defense. BTW, out of curiosity I looked up the word "aggression". It means the "act of INITIATING hostilities." :lol: 

Regarding the "communication" between the owner/handler and the TD/Instructor, I think oftentimes the owner/handler doesn't know what he wants...or clearly wants the wrong thing!


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## Chip Blasiole

I think the original question is oversimplified. There are several different types of aggression that can be tapped into when working dogs in bitework. Based on that premise, the decoy would do different things to ellicit different types of aggression, and of course, what the dog brings to the training is a major factor. Prey drive is aggression-predatory aggression, and is often downplayed as a type of aggression because it does not have a strong affective(emotional) component to it. But a dog can bite the hell out a person in prey drive provided they have some other forms of aggression. 
Other types of aggression include territorial, pain induced, fear induced(defense), social(dominance,) , frustration and learned aggression (Mackenzie,1996.)
So frustration is a type of aggression that can be used to build a dog in protection work, provided they have enough drive to allow them to maintain a level of frustration. Pain can be used if the dog is stimulated to aggression by flanking. But you don't flank a dog who isn't confident and who isn't advanced in his training. Any behavior from the decoy that creates fear and suspicion in the dog, such as moving in a strange way, can stimulate fear induced aggression. You can tap into territorial aggression by working the dog from your vehicle or home. 
Ideally, you would try to tap into these various types of aggression at different stages of training depending on whether the dog has the traits for the different types of aggression and depending on what your goals are. You can even use play aggression with young pups/dogs, as this is how they instinctively learn adult fighting skills, or the decoy can try to channel an older dog back into play a little if they are being stressed too much in defense.


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## Andres Martin

I think a dog bites for only two reasons:
1) It wants to prevent/avoid something. I view this as defensive behaviors (intruders, pain, threats...).
2) It wants to obtain/maintain something (prey, status, new territory).

A dog is not aggressive in prey; he is calculating. The moment the "prey" becomes overwhelming, the dog either abandons the fight (if for food), or the fight transforms (on a man), and is no longer about "prey". Social dominance (new territory, status) on the other hand, motivates a dog to tolerate A BUNCH of pain and hardship...and is all about aggression.

"Learned" aggression??? This must be a product of "cueing" either defense or social dominance, IMHO, and is not a type of aggression unto itself.

Any way you slice it, I think we come back to what Jeff wrote. Either the dog has "aggression" or he doesn't. The rest are simply displays.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Any way you slice it, I think we come back to what Jeff wrote. Either the dog has "aggression" or he doesn't. The rest are simply displays.

I think this was something I was supposed to keep secret.

Think of all the time being wasted "tapping" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Chip Blasiole

It goes back to how you define aggression, which I think is a more complex than "either the dog has aggression or he doesn't." 
Andre-you are contradicting yourself when you say prey isn't aggression, and that the dog abandons the fight if the prey becomes overwhelming. If there is no aggression, how can there be a fight. Aggression and drives are complex and a dog doesn't just work in prey, or defense or social aggression, etc. There is an ongoing interaction of what we call drives and aggression going on in bitework, and the interaction depends on the dog's temperament/drive package and what the dog is presented in the bitework.


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## Andres Martin

Chip-

Having a "fight" with no aggression is seen all the time in many dog sports and on the street. In fact, I think it's exactly the point of the OP question.

I readily admit that many dogs that are aggressive also have low thresholds to biting "prey", and that a GREAT MANY dogs are defensive, and that aggression, prey and defense "interact" depending on how formidable (or not) the opponent is. But the MAJORITY of dogs are prey and defense, with little to no aggression.

I think that 1) you can teach a dog that aggression is desirable within a framework...only if the dog has it IN HIM to begin with, 2) aggression only stems from social dominance and/or self-confidence, and 3) aggression is a very forward behavior - oftentimes fairly quiet (as in no barking), in contrast to defensive behaviors.

I don't think of aggression as biting or showing teeth, hackles, whites of the eyes, barks and growls, or any other display. Nor am I referring to prey bites.

An aggressive dog will more likely be a pusher than a puller, will clearly try to inflict pain and submission, will look at you directly in the eyes, will try to get on top of you, will bite harder and/or look for advantage when faced with pain or opposition...on a bite.

In general, he will be a "stiff" dog with people he doesn't know well, tail up, looking for eye contact from everyone, pushy; he will not like anyone being "over" him, he will guard resources, territory, pack more, he will not be shy, and will want to be "in" on everything going on around him, etc. Depending on his "threshold level" he will react sooner or later. If a dog does not behave like that - IMO he does not have a high degree of social aggression.

A dog will only show UP TO his genetic potential. Not more.

So...IMO...if a dog HAS it, you can get him use it. If he doesn't, you'll see a bunch of smoke screens.


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## Chip Blasiole

I believe theories of aggression in animals/dogs are complex and open to debate. I think we agree that the stronger dogs look to spontaneously fight with the decoy, rather than seeing the decoy as a threat they have to defend themselves against. I agree with you that aggression in a dog can involve competing for resources with the decoy/bad guy, and the catalyst for this competition is social aggression. Where I disagree, is that, prey is a part of the aggression because instinctively, wanting to win prey is related to survival, and dogs will compete for, guard, or possess their prey via aggression. 
The other side of the argument is that dominance battles between competing animals of the same species usually involve combat that is more ritualistic in nature. The combat appears to be very aggressive, but rarely results in death, as opposed to an animal killing its prey. Which is more aggressive? The ritualistic display of aggression involving dominance, or the predatory aggression which results in death? 
This gets pretty esoteric, but my main point is that aggression in protection work is complex, and understanding it is not so simple.


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## Andres Martin

> dogs will compete for, guard, or possess their prey via aggression.


I agree. All of those are based on social aggression. A submissive canid will never guard prey from the dominant member.



> dominance battles between competing animals of the same species usually involve combat that is more ritualistic in nature.


I have stitched up quite a few dogs that weren't aware of that theory. :lol: 

Eventually very dominant dogs are only controlled by teaching them to self inhibit...in response to handler "leadership" :wink: 



> Which is more aggressive? The ritualistic display of aggression involving dominance, or the predatory aggression which results in death?


Ritualistic displays are more often found amongst herbivores. Amongst the canids, the confrontations are ritualistic ONLY if the hierarchy is clear. Otherwise death is a very real possibility - direct or indirect.

Prey makes dogs bite hard...not angry. Aggression is angry.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:I believe theories of aggression in animals/dogs are complex and open to debate.

OK, well debate this then, if you have to tap something, then you are training it. I have worked dogs with defense type motions, and since they are not scared of me, they are biting in prey. I have worked dogs with prey motions, and submission the second they put their mouth on the sleeve and the dog was in defense.

What a dog is, is just that. Any time you talk about adding aggression, over the almost thirty years I have been doing this, you are talking about teaching a response to a specific situation, which of course is bullshit.

So not to end it here, with my "I cry bullshit" let us try and discuss this one scenario.

If you have to tap aggression, are you really tapping into some mystical pool. or are you rewarding for a mean face????


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## Andres Martin

IMO, the only real reward for an aggressive dog is letting him kick the sh!+ out of you. Mean faces, mean sounds, mean posturing, mean nothing.

BTW, Jeff, you wrote that if you threaten a dog and he isn't scared of you, he'll be biting in prey...

That may be the case, but from my view, it's sadly more likely that it will be in PLAY.


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## Simon Mellick

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK, well debate this then, if you have to tap something, then you are training it.


Do you view this argument differently if you're talking about prey drive? When I see a dog bite a man in predominantly prey-drive, I see the end result of hours and hours of drive-building and training; as a learned response the dog now bites the man in prey drive. It's not natural, it's been trained. Does that make it faulty?




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you have to tap aggression, are you really tapping into some mystical pool. or are you rewarding for a mean face????


What if you push until you get a defensive bite, and reward that behaviour, as opposed to a bark... (If that's even possible without pushing the dog to the edge of avoidance, not advocating that type of training...) Does that change the scenario?

Simon


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## Andres Martin

Simon, I think if you tap prey drive, you reinforce prey drive. I think that's a no-brainer.

Prey drive is a powerful tool for biting, but one must be careful when differentiating it from play. They look similar from afar. Tugs, drive development, and so on is very often about PLAYING.

If you pressure a dog that "doesn't have it" beyond its bite threshold, you'll get an "edgier", more reactive dog, even nervous, which might be a liability in certain circumstances.

Defense is not aggression...it's defense. Defense is fear induced. If you reward defensive behavior frequently, to the point where the dog no longer has that fear of the "threat cues" because they have been repeated so much, it will stop being defense, and will simply become an exercise. If the fear never disappears, the dog is too nervy for my taste.

Aggression is "dominance" induced.

For some it doesn't matter if the dog bites from fear or from power, so long as the dog bites. For me...I would much rather have a self-confident, forward dog that bites because he wants to dominate (and he's been taught this is OK) and that holds back his bite, and is reliable and stable because he respects me totally.

With the latter kind of dog, the main issue is control. With the former kind of dog the main issue is motivation. I prefer having to apply brakes, than having to figure out where the damn accelerator is, what type of fuel to use, how fast can it go, etc.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:What if you push until you get a defensive bite, and reward that behaviour, as opposed to a bark... (If that's even possible without pushing the dog to the edge of avoidance, not advocating that type of training...) Does that change the scenario? 

If you have to push, you are training a response.....right?

If you have to do drive building exersizes the dog is junk genetically, and should not be bred. I have done a lot of drive building in my life, but people are not willing to abandon their dogs just because they are junk, including me. 

Big difference is I don't breed them.

I experimented with a lot of this stuff in the 80's and early 90's. I did find some diamonds in the ruff over the years, but overall, "tapping" drives and whatnot is crap.

A good dog needs no drive building.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

> but people are not willing to abandon their dogs just because they are junk, including me.


You're slipping Jeff, letting that humanness shine thru


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have a junk dog, although I often question why.


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