# I'm going herding!



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

My wife bought me herding lessons for the dogs for our anniversary and tomorrow morning at 7am I'm gonna do it.

I know nothing about this...it's not even something I ever planned on doing but my wife (No worries Gillian and Maggie this is Mormon country) knows I like to cross train and she know we have dogs that can probably do it.

Any advice for an absolute noob to herding?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeez, just keep running!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Are you not in Arizona?


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

Get the Grill ready .. dinners coming home baby!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Are you not in Arizona?


yes. As far as I know Herding is accepted in Arizona. I'm not an illegal immigrant like you would be so I'm not concerned.


This is where I'm going

http://www.club-doggie.com/2.html


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Guess you's gonna look sorta sheepish Chris!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm curious to see how the Rottweiler will do. I'm thinking he may chase them down and drag one to the ground then again the Mal might have a better chance because he's much faster. 


I'll video the session if they let me.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> yes. As far as I know Herding is accepted in Arizona. I'm not an illegal immigrant like you would be so I'm not concerned.
> 
> 
> This is where I'm going
> ...


The reason I asked was you said you were in mormon country, that's Utah isn't it ?

I've been to Arizona, not sheep herding though. Have lots of fun, I'm sure your dogs will.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> ... I'll video the session if they let me.


Awesome!


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## Michele Moore (Mar 27, 2006)

Let me know how it goes, Chris. That place is pretty close to me. Hopefully your mal doesn't get banned from herding like mine


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Most important tip: keep your eye on the stock! :smile: Herding is totally different from anything else. Expect the obedience to go out the window. ;-) Definitely let your Rottie give it a go. My old Rottie has such awesome fetching instinct, especially for not being a herding breed. Gosh, I wish she was younger!


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Good luck, but if it doesn't go well sheep are really cheap.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Michele Moore said:


> Let me know how it goes, Chris. That place is pretty close to me. Hopefully your mal doesn't get banned from herding like mine



If you're around you can come and join me at 7am. I hope I don't have to buy any sheep, if I do, you and nicole should come to training on sunday because I'm sure we'll be BBQing


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> My wife bought me herding lessons for the dogs for our anniversary and tomorrow morning at 7am I'm gonna do it.
> 
> I know nothing about this...it's not even something I ever planned on doing but my wife (No worries Gillian and Maggie this is Mormon country) knows I like to cross train and she know we have dogs that can probably do it.
> 
> Any advice for an absolute noob to herding?


It was a long time ago, but I remember we were in a round pen the first time and if the dog actually tried to get ahold of one of the sheep, the staff came down on him. All I really had to do was hold the line while the instructor told me what to do and evaluated my Rott.


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## Michele Moore (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> If you're around you can come and join me at 7am. I hope I don't have to buy any sheep, if I do, you and nicole should come to training on sunday because I'm sure we'll be BBQing


I'd be willing to come down but I don't want to interrupt your anniversary date and make your wife mad, lol. I would come tracking Sunday but I will be in Utah for flyball. Commence flyball jokes now


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Michele Moore said:


> I'd be willing to come down but I don't want to interrupt your anniversary date and make your wife mad, lol. I would come tracking Sunday but I will be in Utah for flyball. Commence flyball jokes now


My wife won't be there. She has one of those so called "day jobs" and she's not into the dogs like I am. So you're more than welcome to hang if you feel up to it.


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## Michele Moore (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> My wife won't be there. She has one of those so called "day jobs" and she's not into the dogs like I am. So you're more than welcome to hang if you feel up to it.


I will try to come down, I get off work at 7 but I may just go in a little early and try to leave a little early.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> My wife bought me herding lessons for the dogs for our anniversary and tomorrow morning at 7am I'm gonna do it.
> 
> You and your dogs are having an anniversary?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Chris Michalek said:
> 
> 
> > My wife bought me herding lessons for the dogs for our anniversary and tomorrow morning at 7am I'm gonna do it.
> ...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I looked up what you're supposed to give for a 15th wedding aniversary gift - crystal! Of all the dumbest shit in the world....damn. I hope she likes Movado.[/quote]

You’re giving your dog a watch? Your dog knows how to tell time? :razz:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> I looked up what you're supposed to give for a 15th wedding aniversary gift - crystal! Of all the dumbest shit in the world....damn. I hope she likes Movado.


You’re giving your dog a watch? Your dog knows how to tell time? :razz:

[/quote]


hells yeah they know how to tell time, without fail, every morning at exactly 5:06am, I am not already up, I get woke up with a rottweiler snout in my face. Sometimes I get pissed and smack him with a pillow especially if I roll into bed at 4am from playing a gig but even after a beating the next day they are at it again.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

good answer


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Any advice for an absolute noob to herding?


Wear rubber boots noobie shepherds are always sexier dressed in rubber. :-\"

In seriousness bring a long line in case you need to pull a dog off a sheep. Use whatever collar you want depending on the dog. The Malinois if the HIC is done in a smaller ring will probably burn its paw pads as if he is anything like my girl she gets into these fast circles and full speed and tears the ratshit out of her pads. Though that could be the pen where we herd is hard pack clay. 

We herded yesterday and had a riot. It was just 4 of us and we had the fun of being 30km from the epicenter of that 5.0 earth quake yesterday. Being on clay we physically saw the waves like surf on the ocean but it was farm field, it was pretty darn cool! 

Here are our pics from yesterday. 

The full album and a teaser pic .. 

http://www.ottawavalleyworkingdogs.com/Photos/tabid/385/AlbumID/978-14/Page/0/Default.aspx


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris:


First, ask yourself how your dogs are gonna take body and stick pressure from a stranger. I like the little GSD puppy that grabs the rattle paddle but if its a 100 lb Rottie or 75 llb Mal it may not be so cute. Traditional training involves holding the dogs off the stock with a stock stick, rake, raddle paddle or the gadget of the moment. The trouble is without prior training or introduction, th e dogs don't get that and they weren't bred/selected to move off pressure. 

Its kinda interesting but Mals tend to do the same orbit/circling that the Belgian Sheepdogs do--I know same breed origins, but I didn't expect to see that similarity. Most folks don't understand the term drover so they think the cattle breeds such as the Rottie or corgi for that matter, aren't strong headers with the instinct to gather and keep them grouped. 

The first couple of sessions are basically handled by the tester. Your job as the noob is to make sure tester knows what kinda dogs she/he is dealing with. The tester is looking for 1) sustained interest; 2) instinct to gather and keep grouped even though they might not be very good at it; 3) trainability. It only takes 2 minutes or so to figure this out. Take a long line. The other problem is trainers who think they can stop a dog with a whack of the stock stick. Have known a dog or two that reacted with a bite. Know your dog. The person testing the dog should spend enough time with you to go over what type of dogs you have and how they respond to others and pressure. Last thing you need is for your dog to see the tester as a decoy even though most of the time the testers are acting like a decoy trying to back the dog off their's and the stock's pressure. 

Lastly, if the tester looks like her first born are being led to slaughter or if the sheep have names, its generally time to bounce. Unfortunately, most herders like soft dogs. Anything with drive and hardness scares the bejesus outta them. 


Terrasita


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I spoke with her on the phone this evening to talk about the session. This is not a lesson like I thought, it's an instinct test. She won't do anything without the instinct test which is understandable. 

I was very clear that I have high drive dogs that are trained to bite. She said she has works with a few schH people in the area but wouldn't tell me who. She didn't think it was going to be a problem and reinforced the fact that she's experienced with this stuff. I'll find out tomorrow.






Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Chris:
> 
> 
> First, ask yourself how your dogs are gonna take body and stick pressure from a stranger. I like the little GSD puppy that grabs the rattle paddle but if its a 100 lb Rottie or 75 llb Mal it may not be so cute. Traditional training involves holding the dogs off the stock with a stock stick, rake, raddle paddle or the gadget of the moment. The trouble is without prior training or introduction, th e dogs don't get that and they weren't bred/selected to move off pressure.
> ...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chirs,

What is her name. I know a coupe of AZ herders but her facility was familiar to me. Maybe I can ask around. As for having worked with Sch dogs, they come in all flavors. 

Terrasita


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Chirs,
> 
> What is her name. I know a coupe of AZ herders but her facility was familiar to me. Maybe I can ask around. As for having worked with Sch dogs, they come in all flavors.
> 
> Terrasita



This is where I'm going

http://www.club-doggie.com/2.html

I would appreciate it. I don't know that I am going to stick with it but it will be fun to try it. Seems like an expensive sport if you don't have property and sheep but if I had property and sheep then it wouldn't exactly be a sport...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris, when was the last time you had your feet taken out from under you and you landed on your head? 
The first time I went in a pen with my dog and sheep I though "I'll just knee em in the ribs if they try and bum rush me".
My boots looked lovely with the sun and blue sky as a back drop:-o. 
When they try and jump over you they never quite make it. :lol: but I love it! ;-)


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## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

Hey Chris have fun herding with your dogs. I sure enjoy it with my female. After two lessons she is off leash and no I don't let her chase sheep or get into fast circles with full speed. But then she always acted like a Border Collie in a Mal suit. The little is getting exposed to sheep too but for the time being just looking at them, walking around a gate to see if he has any interest except barking at sheep. You are lucky having a trainer who is willing to work with you with a Rottie. Took me ages to find a trainer for a Mal.
Looking forward to that video (hope someone will tape us too one day)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Glad you found someone willing to work with you. High powered Mals are not good first time herding dogs cause they're so darn fast and a big tendency towards being grippy. They probably freak out the BC people and for good reason! :lol: Just have to think outside the box a bit with them. Though I would think a good bite sport dog with a nice clean out is a valuable thing to have...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris,

Word on the herding street is that the facility is one of those doggie country club set ups catering mostly to agility folks. The AZ herders aren't real sure about their level of experience and they haven't been seen at the trials. The sheep are accustomed to sorta the softer medium drive highly trained obedience placement type dog. The test sheep should be decent but I doubt that they have met up with dogs of your caliber. So its kinda risky. She did say she has worked a couple of Sch dogs for what its worth. I generally tell people to ask what are you going to do when my dog goes in for a bite? What if my dogs don't see the stick, paddle, rake as a correction or respond to it by getting farther away from the stock. 

I think you have to go in with her and your job is to stay as close to her as possible so you don't get in her's and the dog's way. If your dog goes in for a bite, YOU have to get to him and shut it down. Let her know that this is the way its gonna be and you brought your check book. I worry more about the mals load and explode than the rottie really. I haven't seen any of the German bred rotties or those bred for protection but they don't seem to run off prey drive the way the Begian types do. Age is also a factor. The more mature the better. A lot of the success is the tester's ability to read the dog and be in the right place for the good stuff to happen.

Sorry to be a killjoy but I hate for people to go into these blind and the next thing ya know some herding instructor is going after their dog with an oak crook. Please report back how it goes.

Terrasita


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

thanks for that info. Do you have any information on who I should go to in the future? I know that place was picked because they are close to my home.


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

interested in seeing the outcome of this ..... Subbed


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Chris,
> 
> Word on the herding street is that the facility is one of those doggie country club set ups catering mostly to agility folks. The AZ herders aren't real sure about their level of experience and they haven't been seen at the trials. The sheep are accustomed to sorta the softer medium drive highly trained obedience placement type dog. The test sheep should be decent but I doubt that they have met up with dogs of your caliber. So its kinda risky. She did say she has worked a couple of Sch dogs for what its worth. * I generally tell people to ask what are you going to do when my dog goes in for a bite?* What if my dogs don't see the stick, paddle, rake as a correction or respond to it by getting farther away from the stock.
> 
> ...


Great advice here Chris if you read this before you head out keep the bold text in your head. I remember you getting your underwear all bunched up in a knot when the decoy was correcting your dog in FR training. The corrections will be coming from the tester and they will be coming from a rattle paddle, rake or oak crook across the back of the head if they are actually intent on killing the sheep. 

The local Rottweiler club had a HIC day last year at the facility we go to. Nat (tester) did lose on Ewe to a Rott and it happened fast Nat was out of position for 2-3 seconds that is how fast the dog dispatched the sheep. 

First things first ... have fun! I'm sure you will.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

thanks guys. I'm having coffee and then I'm gonna leave.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> The Malinois if the HIC is done in a smaller ring will probably burn its paw pads as if he is anything like my girl she gets into these fast circles and full speed and tears the ratshit out of her pads. Though that could be the pen where we herd is hard pack clay.


Do you let Sasha jump into the stock tank while you are herding? One of the things that seems to really lend itself to burnt pads is letting the dogs feet get wet before they go into the pen. That's one thing I'm very aware of, once the dog is past the "crazies" I don't worry about it as much, but when they are first starting I don't let them get their feet wet until they are done for the day.


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## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Glad you found someone willing to work with you. High powered Mals are not good first time herding dogs cause they're so darn fast and a big tendency towards being grippy. They probably freak out the BC people and for good reason! :lol: Just have to think outside the box a bit with them. Though I would think a good bite sport dog with a nice clean out is a valuable thing to have...


My Mal is darn fast but she is a soft one what makes it a lot easier working her on sheep. She tried to grip a couple of times but actually realized very soon that working calmly gets the job done a lot better and there is no need to grip. However I had a rough time and more or less gave up finding a trainer willing to work a Mal. My trainer is experienced with GSD and some other breeds too and would love to get a dog like my female. He wants to buy her each time.
Somehow I get the feeling herding is the thing to do. There are plenty of Border Collies out of good working lines who don't cut it. Like I have two Mals from great working lines not cut for great bite work. I think it's great getting the chance to see if your dog has instict. But would I work a dog with zero talent on stock? Nope...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Do you let Sasha jump into the stock tank while you are herding? One of the things that seems to really lend itself to burnt pads is letting the dogs feet get wet before they go into the pen. That's one thing I'm very aware of, once the dog is past the "crazies" I don't worry about it as much, but when they are first starting I don't let them get their feet wet until they are done for the day.


No never have done that. I really think it is just she goes so hard and fast with these real tight turns is what actually does her in. This is in the round pen as well so it tends to make her go in circles and she is just so fast.

We did Wednesday's session in the bigger square pen and it was a lot better even though she crowded the sheep and almost goaded the sheep into escaping so she could chase them down. She is coming unto 4 years now so she is actually not grippy anymore and would rather have the action of moving them. I wish I had more time to pursue it more serious but Ringsport has to take priority.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

There is a great trainer in Florence. He has dealt with many different breeds. I have trained my Beauceron with him for 3 years now. Let me know if you want his number. 

Kellie


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> There is a great trainer in Florence. He has dealt with many different breeds. I have trained my Beauceron with him for 3 years now. Let me know if you want his number.
> 
> Kellie



Have you worked with Kamma before? She mentioned somebody with a Beauceron. 

I was talking to one of my training buds right after the session this morning and I think we're going to buy some sheep and do herding ourselves at the club. We work M W F Sun so that leaves T TH and Sat for herding days. 


I just uploaded video to this thread. Please comment

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/what-do-you-guys-see-16037/#post200620


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

I have only ever worked with Joe. I do not know Kamma. Do they have border collies? and do border collie trials? 

My advice would be to 1) find a trainer that you like and is knowledgeable and 2) if you are going to buy your own sheep make sure there are dog broke and from someone who is good at dog breaking stock


I will be training on Tuesday and Thursday next week in Florence. You are more than welcome to come and watch my training sessions to help give you some ideas !

Kellie


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I vote for Katahdins. Very tasty hair sheep. :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, LOVE the rottie. The mal is really handler/pressure sensitive and I was trying to figure out just how I would rate it in the sense of group department. I thought I saw a couple of sparks. As for the trainer, the flag was annoying and I love the rotties response. However, she did her job for an instinct test. In an instinct test you want to get the dog to engage and move around the stock and hopefully in both directions. Moving stock from point A to point B comes next. She read the mal's sensitivity to the flag thingy and got it to engage. I don't have the volume on so I guess she read that on her own without some help from Chris. She didn't panic on the rottie with the singles and she knows her sheep aren't crashers. My read on the rottie was that he isn't in for mutton. I've seen much more zest. She lost position a couple of times but sometimes that can happen to the best of us. She had confidence with the rottie. Her style is a little unique butwe all have our quirks. She read the mal's sensitivity to the pressure of the flag. Gold star always for stepping into the pen and being fair with the dogs. I don't think the mal was quite sure what the sheep even were. Give it a couple of more sessions to see what he has.

Terrasita


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> My wife bought me herding lessons for the dogs for our anniversary and tomorrow morning at 7am I'm gonna do it.
> 
> I know nothing about this...it's not even something I ever planned on doing but my wife (No worries Gillian and Maggie this is Mormon country) knows I like to cross train and she know we have dogs that can probably do it.
> 
> Any advice for an absolute noob to herding?


aahhh, Shepherds never roll their rubber boots down to the knees before entering the field.

Always watch and be ready to have one of those stupid critters run into you.

Breath in, breath out...and enjoy. This is cool if you don't go into it with stress.

Oh, watch those rams as they can hurt you if they get to acting stupid!!!

;-) There that says it all!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chiris,

Here are some trainer suggestions from those in your area from another source:

*The two trainers I usually recommend are Sue Bradley in Benson (south of Tucson) and Molly Wisecarver in Mayer (halfway between Pnx and Flagstaff.) Sue is about half an hour s. of Tucson, and Molly is about an hour from central Pnx. *

*It all depends on what the dog owner wants to accomplish. If all they want is to get a 'title' on their dogs, any one of the three (Dawna, Molly or Sue) would do an excellent job. If their goal is a longer one (advanced level titles and learning how to handle their own dogs) I'd recommend Sue. Joe Escobar is also an excellent trainer and lives in the Florence area, but his health is precarious and since he is in a wheelchair has to rely on the shock collar method of training. He sure can read stock, though.*

*Give your friends the link to the AHA website **http://www.azherding.com/** and they can figure out what they want to do.*

If you were going to buy stock to train on your own AFTER you've had some lessons, my recommendation for starting your type of dogs is a good set of goats that have been dog broke. I'm not a real fan of hair sheep. I can do Katahdins or St. Croix, if they have the right mentality. The sheep you had in the video were good starter sheep. However, stay away from Barbados. 

Terrasita


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Sheesh, Chris...

Herding? Next you will have me admitting I took my dogs to a private agility class for something to do. 8-[


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

* "Joe Escobar is also an excellent trainer and lives in the Florence area, but his health is precarious and since he is in a wheelchair has to rely on the shock collar method of training. He sure can read stock, though.*"


*

Because of his physical limitations, Joe does use the ecollar for his own dogs. He does not force those that train with him to use it.* 

And for what it is worth, when his dogs see that ecollar they get VERY excited, because they know it is time to get to work.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its well known that he uses the e-collar because of him being confined to a wheelchair. However, there are plenty using an e collar in herding that can stand, walk and run with the best of them. No matter who you elect to train with, you need to interview them regarding any corrective measures they employ in their training and make sure you're comfortable with it or that the two of you can come up with alternatives that you both accept.



Terrasita


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Chris, when was the last time you had your feet taken out from under you and you landed on your head?
> The first time I went in a pen with my dog and sheep I though "I'll just knee em in the ribs if they try and bum rush me".
> My boots looked lovely with the sun and blue sky as a back drop:-o.
> When they try and jump over you they never quite make it. :lol: but I love it! ;-)


Oh, but if you can possibly just go limp during your fall, you can always 'sheep surf! before landing on your backside in the sheep sh..!


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I vote for Katahdins. Very tasty hair sheep. :grin:


Right. I have Katahdin x St. Croix crosses. Great sheep, easy keepers. No wool to sheer. Can only have hair sheep here as our climate is not conducive to woolies.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

new age non-sense or not, I generally believe in the law of attraction. Yesterday afternoon, I was talking to my next door neighbor and he brought up that he was talking to his sister about me and my dogs. She asked him if I ever did any herding with my dogs. Of course, I mentioned that last friday was the very first time my dog met and kind of live stock so he put me in touch with his sister who has a small cattle ranch near where I live. 

I talked to her and she said she trains for the real world and not sport but she knows how to read dogs and she knows how to read live stock. So I spent a couple of hours this morning learning how to herd some cattle. It was a much more productive lesson for me because she showed me her dog and then a young one that she is training. 

Then I got into the ring and she showed me how to push the herd from A to B, how to deal with steers who challenge the dogs and fetching.

I have video but it's really boring to watch me walk behind the herd and teach my dog to walk from side to side. The few times my dogs got challenged she turned off the camera to focus on me, the dog and the steer. It's pretty cool to see my dog get nose to nose with a steer that could kill him and then watch the dog naturally back the steer down. I could really see the confidence in the dogs escalate as we progressed through the session.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Please post video! I'd like to see some driving. :smile:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Please post video! I'd like to see some driving. :smile:


OK I'll post some but you might have more fun picking lint out of your belly button.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> OK I'll post some but you might have more fun picking lint out of your belly button.



posted

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/cattle-herding-lessons-16077/


please comment


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