# K9 demonstration from Law Dog conference



## Fred Hassen (Mar 23, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsW6DAb2lQ8


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Fred Hassen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsW6DAb2lQ8


Hey Fred,

Good to see you here on the WDF.
I'm not sure if you were following the other thread with the
"controversy" about the LVMPD K9 Program? I don't recall you ever making any claims about being part of Mike Horns/LVMPD program? I wonder how rumors like that get started?
I did notice that one of your graduates won the Las Vegas Police K9 competition last year and that you're offering a
program for LEO's

http://www.sitmeanssit.com/police-k9-school/


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Fred,
> 
> Good to see you here on the WDF.
> I'm not sure if you were following the other thread with the
> ...


 










This will get good! :mrgreen:


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Fred Hassen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsW6DAb2lQ8



Hey! Welcome to the WDF. I didn't see an into post. Maybe you could post something in the introductions forum to tell us a little bit about yourself.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Come on, your first post is an advertisement? 

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> Hey! Welcome to the WDF. I didn't see an into post. Maybe you could post something in the introductions forum to tell us a little bit about yourself.



Yes, that would be nice.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> Hey! Welcome to the WDF. I didn't see an into post. Maybe you could post something in the introductions forum to tell us a little bit about yourself.


I think he is the overweight guy in the black shirt? I heard a lot of people think black takes a few pounds off. 
That’s all I know about the guy… anybody else?


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## Fred Hassen (Mar 23, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> I think he is the overweight guy in the black shirt? I heard a lot of people think black takes a few pounds off.
> That’s all I know about the guy… anybody else?


Hi Chris! Well, since this is the 'video section' and since it says in the intro to the video section: "Share your videos here! Lets try and turn this into a big archive of peoples working dog videos! The video's don't even have to be yours, if you find a cool video online and want to share it, post a link to it here!"

Sounds like you were looking right past the dog though. I did put a bio up, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news........but I'm married. :roll:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Fred Hassen said:


> Hi Chris! Well, since this is the 'video section' and since it says in the intro to the video section: "Share your videos here! Lets try and turn this into a big archive of peoples working dog videos! The video's don't even have to be yours, if you find a cool video online and want to share it, post a link to it here!"
> 
> Sounds like you were looking right past the dog though. I did put a bio up, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news........but I'm married. :roll:


 
Ha… that’s good. Just busting because I assumed it was your video and it would be kind of cheesy for someone to just post a video of themselves without saying anything, especially if it could be looked at as trying to dig up work. But if this is just some random video you like and you posted it, you are a bit less cheesy then. Sorry for calling you overweight if that guy in the video aint you, wrong person.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Fred Hassen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsW6DAb2lQ8


I liked it!!!You look like you might be a dog trainer :smile: lots on here think there the shit keep posting work like this and let the beat down begin got some more.


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## Fred Hassen (Mar 23, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Fred,
> 
> Good to see you here on the WDF.
> I'm not sure if you were following the other thread with the
> ...


Not sure what you mean by 'Controversy' concerning the LVMPD K9 program? They are very successful.

Why would I say that I am part of LVMPD K9 program? We have our own program of training dogs. 

You must be referring to Brett Smith who won the recent Las Vegas trial out here. Yes, he did a very good job but Metro almost always cleans up at that trial and they have very good dogs. They probably were all off a bit on that day. You know how dogs have good days and bad at trials. Brett was the only graduate of our school that we had participating in that trial so we were very happy for him as you might guess because we got to see it! His other trials he won we weren't able to be there. 
That is really a nice trial put on by them and it's in a casino with big screen that you can watch it on. It's a police trial done up Las Vegas style!.

Mike Horn is a good guy, and I always say to see the people's dogs so if you come to Vegas, you can always see our dogs and Metro's dogs as well if you ask I'd think. I highly recommend that. Mike also believes that the dogs tell the story and besides that, someone is just yakkin if they can't show their work. I'll second that!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Im not a dog trainer and my shit stinks bad !


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## Fred Hassen (Mar 23, 2010)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I liked it!!!You look like you might be a dog trainer :smile: lots on here think there the shit keep posting work like this and let the beat down begin got some more.


Hi Mike! Here is another one of "Nash": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ImDL2NGGSk

This is one of my favorites of a group of our trainers doing scentwork and bitework together at a police K9 demonstration in Las Vegas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zI59QUqG_s


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Come on, your first post is an advertisement?
> 
> DFrost



Yeah, we never have anybody advertising kennels or websites or litters or seminars do we? LOL


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm not a dog trainer either, and my shit stinks worse than most, but I've been wanting an explanation on this video for quite awhile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHAQkT4C9VA

From a novice point of view I wonder why the dog's owner hands the dog off to the trainer. Isn't it better for her to learn how to handle her own dog...by actually handling it? 

Why is not one word said to the dog at any point during the exercise? Neither the owner or the trainer try to calm the dog verbally. The trainer says nothing when stepping up to the dog, in what looks to me to be an attempt to assume a heel position. If the dog doesn't already know how to heel command, wouldn't it be a good idea to begin introducing/conditioning the command at that time?

Why continuously stimulate a muzzled dog to the point of submission(exhaustion) when it poses no threat(ie it can't bite)? Again, I'm not trainer, but I see the constant stimulation as being at least partially responsible for the dog's aggressive during that exercise. Basically, the dog associates the discomfort with the new guy who's trying to handle it. 







*Mods: if this isn't the appropriate place to ask this question then just delete this post and I can make a seperate thread*


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Come on, your first post is an advertisement?
> 
> DFrost


Fasten your seat belt David :-\" You ain't seen nothing yet!!


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## Fred Hassen (Mar 23, 2010)

James Lechernich said:


> I'm not a dog trainer either, and my shit stinks worse than most, but I've been wanting an explanation on this video for quite awhile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHAQkT4C9VA
> 
> From a novice point of view I wonder why the dog's owner hands the dog off to the trainer. Isn't it better for her to learn how to handle her own dog...by actually handling it?
> 
> ...


Hi James, my suggestion would be to contact the trainer Darrel Hager.
It's a 4 minute video, and the video was done in Chicago. He'd know everything about the dog. Darrel is a great guy, and he would be best to answer any questions of yours. Darrel's email is: [email protected]


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> I'm not a dog trainer either, and my shit stinks worse than most, but I've been wanting an explanation on this video for quite awhile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHAQkT4C9VA
> 
> From a novice point of view I wonder why the dog's owner hands the dog off to the trainer. Isn't it better for her to learn how to handle her own dog...by actually handling it?
> 
> ...


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Fred Hassen said:


> Hi James, my suggestion would be to contact the trainer Darrel Hager.
> It's a 4 minute video, and the video was done in Chicago. He'd know everything about the dog. Darrel is a great guy, and he would be best to answer any questions of yours. Darrel's email is: [email protected]


Sure thing! In the mean time, do you have an opinion on the video? Does it meet SMS standards?


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## Fred Hassen (Mar 23, 2010)

James Lechernich said:


> Sure thing! In the mean time, do you have an opinion on the video? Does it meet SMS standards?


I just rewatched the video. I'd say talk to Darrel because not hearing everything, what I see is that the dog is going after everyone when they first get there. You can see that before he puts the collar on or anything.

Knowing how they are trained, I'm sure he has the muzzle on before he starts because the lady has already told him that the dog goes after everybody. Yeah, you do see a little of the dog taking some shots once he starts, but I can tell that the dog is just doing that from before. The fact that he is able to not only get next to that dog, but have others pet him, and get the muzzle off in that short a time period is good. That dog would eat him alive when he first got there. It's obvious to me that the dog is doing all that long before we got there. Again, it's hard for me to comment on everything about the dog from the short video, but I don't have a problem with the transformation at all, and it's obvious to me that the lady called with the problem. I certainly wouldn't start that dog without a muzzle. He obviously felt confident enough to take the muzzle off and that tells me a lot. 

Here is another example of the dog is this way before it starts.......I didn't cause this. This was from a police seminar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuZTkz8eD2I

Ronnie Davidson is also helping me in that video and he has a seminar coming up with Bart Bellon. I would suggest that anyone that has a chance to see Bart Bellon. Bart and that whole crew up there in Belgium .......Joa Lopez, Martine Loots, etc, etc are all as good as it gets. Too many names to list.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Fred Hassen said:


> Knowing how they are trained, I'm sure he has the muzzle on before he starts because the lady has already told him that the dog goes after everybody. Yeah, you do see a little of the dog taking some shots once he starts, but I can tell that the dog is just doing that from before. The fact that he is able to not only get next to that dog, but have others pet him, and get the muzzle off in that short a time period is good. That dog would eat him alive when he first got there. It's obvious to me that the dog is doing all that long before we got there. Again, it's hard for me to comment on everything about the dog from the short video, but I don't have a problem with the transformation at all, and it's obvious to me that the lady called with the problem. I certainly wouldn't start that dog without a muzzle. He obviously felt confident enough to take the muzzle off and that tells me a lot.


I just e-mailed Darrel about the video and provided a link to this thread, inviting him here to answer in person. 

Regarding the video, although I'm not a trainer I do understand the need to stop a dog from aggressing one way or another, whether they're muzzled or free to bite. And in no way am I blaming the e-collars, the trainer, or SMS for the dog's underlying issues. But like you said, the dog begins to engage the trainer immediately, because it looks like it's being stimulated even before the leash transfer is completed, and it keeps engaging just about everytime the trainer advances and/or continues to stimulate the dog until the video fast forwards to 10 minutes later. I won't speculate as to what happened during that period of time, but at that point the dog's tail is down and it looks to be breathing heavily, which tells me the dog is exhausted and no longer has any fight left in him. So while the dog is now approachable, my question is what has really been accomplished? Have the dog's threshholds been altered or is it a temporary change because the dog is simply too tired/mentally broken to keep fighting during that round?

I'm watching the video you posted right now and it raises another question that goes along with the lack of verbal cues. Why the lack of anykind of introduction period in either video as a way to desensitize the dog to the trainer's presence? Wouldn't that help to take some of the fight out of both dogs without the need for stimulation? 

Nevertheless, thanks for the response and welcome to the forum!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Fred Hassen said:


> Bart and that whole crew up there in Belgium .......Joa Lopez, Martine Loots, etc, etc are all as good as it gets. Too many names to list.


Do they use the sit means sit training methods?

Fred is your collar used strictly for positive reinforcement like shown in the video with the puppy being stimulated every time his nose touches the pole? Because I thought you started dogs off on the "place" at your seminars and every time the dog leaves he is stimulated, which would not be positive reinforcement. Is that correct? 
So the video seems to be confusing to someone who doesn't know. Maybe an attempt to provoke interest? 

Most sport trainers use the collar negatively as a way to reach out to the dog and say "I can still get you when the leash isn't attached". To eventually progress to no collar during a trial. I guess I have never seen your dogs without a collar on and the reason why I'd like to see you do Ring sport with one.

So if I'm constantly stimulating a dog from puppy hood on what happens when the collar is removed and the dog learns he made a mistake and nothing happened? It seems the dog would become very collar wise.

Also what is the benefit to the dog taking on a high degree of stimulation? Berhnard Flinks says you should create sensitivity so you have more room to play with on the collar (ex , not to start at a low setting and work your way up, start at a setting the dog doesn't like and work your way down). What happens when you take a dog that says FU to a level 10?


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## Fred Hassen (Mar 23, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Do they use the sit means sit training methods?
> 
> Fred is your collar used strictly for positive reinforcement like shown in the video with the puppy being stimulated every time his nose touches the pole? Because I thought you started dogs off on the "place" at your seminars and every time the dog leaves he is stimulated, which would not be positive reinforcement. Is that correct?
> So the video seems to be confusing to someone who doesn't know. Maybe an attempt to provoke interest?
> ...


Hi Timothy! As far as other people using other people's methods, I have my own opinion on that. First of all, if I were going to use the 'Timothy Stacy method'......or anyone else's for that matter, I'd think that I would have to spend quite a bit of time with Timothy. Watching a couple of his videos and perhaps seeing one of his seminars, and reading an article he wrote wouldn't qualify as me using it. To me at least. I have no opinion on your method, nor what you do, because I have never even met you, let alone spent lots of time training with you.

Likewise, I'm not sure how you could come to any conclusions about what I do in not having spent time with me, plus you throw into the fact that I am constantly, constantly, constantly evolving. Hell, there's people that went to one seminar of mine 10 years ago and will swear on their kids that they understand everything I do inside out, backwards and sideways. Then there are people within systems that are better than others. There are lots of people that follow certain trainers, but out of those people, some are better than others. Some are better in our system than others because we all are human beings and not the same. That could change next year though, because we always evolve and you can't judge someone's heart or desire to learn.

I've never even met some of the people that I have mentioned that I respect, and that is because I watch their dogs in video etc. I have no idea how they got there exactly, but I know that they are doing something right because I like what I see in their dogs time and time again. 

The people I mentioned have their own successful systems, because each individual becomes the trainer of his/her dog and evolves. I've never met most of the people I have mentioned, but I respect their work. It's normal for artists to respect other artists work, and no one has the answer for everything. I would not know their system if I hadn't spent a good deal of time with them. 

The purpose of the 'clicker video' was simply to show that the collar is not just aversive..........period. There are thousands that believe that the only thing that could possibly happen in that video is for the dog to totally avoid the stick because a collar is ONLY aversive. Well the video is what it is. It's not to say that we train with the collar as a clicker. Likewise there are ways that can you hold a dog back with a leash to end up making him go harder, and there are ways you can hold a leash back to make him stop. If you only believe one or the other, and you see a video with it actually happening........then the argument is over, done, finished. The 'there will never be a black U.S. president' argument is over. Yes, there are still people that will debate it anyway. 

You could teach a dog with a clicker that it's negative and teach him to stop doing something by giving it a different meaning. The clicker itself is just an inanimate object. There is nothing 'genetic' in a dog that would make him see it as just positive. Same with a collar. Now, you are certainly in your rights to go around thinking that we train all our dogs using the collar as a clicker because you saw an 8 minute video on it once and that is the end of your SMS knowledge, but if you were around me longer, you'd know it's much deeper than that.

Here is the answer to your 'when you take the collar off' question: http://www.sitmeanssit.com/358/dog-training-collar-aid-remote-clicker-ecollar/


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Fred Hassen said:


> Hi Timothy! As far as other people using other people's methods, I have my own opinion on that. First of all, if I were going to use the 'Timothy Stacy method'......or anyone else's for that matter, I'd think that I would have to spend quite a bit of time with Timothy. Watching a couple of his videos and perhaps seeing one of his seminars, and reading an article he wrote wouldn't qualify as me using it. To me at least. I have no opinion on your method, nor what you do, because I have never even met you, let alone spent lots of time training with you.
> 
> Likewise, I'm not sure how you could come to any conclusions about what I do in not having spent time with me, plus you throw into the fact that I am constantly, constantly, constantly evolving. Hell, there's people that went to one seminar of mine 10 years ago and will swear on their kids that they understand everything I do inside out, backwards and sideways. Then there are people within systems that are better than others. There are lots of people that follow certain trainers, but out of those people, some are better than others. Some are better in our system than others because we all are human beings and not the same. That could change next year though, because we always evolve and you can't judge someone's heart or desire to learn.


Ah but we have met! 

I thought the video was very misleading. It basically showed that the dog overcame the stimulation to receive it's reward. The same came be done with a prong collar. I thought it misrepresented your teaching methods, that's all.

Where does that "EXAMPLE" dog go from there?


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## Fred Hassen (Mar 23, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I guess I have never seen your dogs without a collar on and the reason why I'd like to see you do Ring sport with one.


Hi Timothy, it's normal for people that are involved in a particular sport to think that sport is the guideline for all training. All sport people are like that and sports fans. Schutzhund people think their sport is the end-all be-all because............... AKC obedience people that theirs is the true test of the dog because.............. Agility people think it because............

If you went up to an agility person and showed them your dog doing ringsport, they would think: "Yeah, but that dog can't run an agility course".......he ain't sh#t.

Likewise if they showed you their agility dog, you would ask: "Yeah, but does he bite".

I'm presently starting to compete in Hunt tests with my young lab. No, you can't have a collar on during the trials. Here are my Jr. tests that I've gotten on video, there is another one that I've passed that I do not have on video and I will be starting Sr. tests. This is my present passion.

Anyway, I am doing hunt tests now and I personally believe that the retriever sports are the hardest of all for a variety of reasons. See paragraphs above. :grin:

This is recent, and I am posting this because it's actually the very first hunt test my young lab recently was in. You cannot have a collar on the dog, even in practice on the grounds at the trial. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDHReaVmpAw

I also last year took 2nd place at the World Championships in Dock Dogs in Extreme Vertical last year, and 2nd place at the world Championships in Dock Dogs in Speed Retrieve. You cannot have a collar on your dog in that venue either.

Why am I now choosing these 2 venues?

Dock Dogs - It is one of the fastest rising dog sports and they have over 20,000 members. They have National exposure and all of their events are held in fairgrounds with huge audiences, and gives us further chance to show our dogs to thousands of people. The world championships was on the Outdoor Channel and it was aired 30 times in December. I was in every episode but one because of the high placement. I also place 2nd at this past years National Championships in 'Iron Dog' and the winner was one of my SMS business partners Alfredo Rivera. It's also a very 'motivational' type of dog sport.

AKC Hunt Tests - Again, a very large venue with thousands of people in it, and loads of entries at every test you take. The sport is non-patterned, and it never being on a 'football field' type of surface, makes things much more difficult because of terrain. Much more off-leash and distance is required.

The only passion I have in the protection arena is Police dogs. Every one knows what a police dog is.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Interesting I haven't had time to look at some training videos your demo work looks cool ID be interested in seeing your finished product with out the collar and some of your teaching/training stuff. Cool thanks for the look see.


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