# Glucosomine supplements



## melissa mims (Jul 12, 2006)

My eldest female female has HD in her left hip. She is 6 yo, and has han only 2 acute pain episodes, both after intense exercise/jumping (before she was diagnosed). I have noticed in the last few months a bit of slowing down, a little less of a range of motion. Yeh, I know she could be just getting middle aged, but I have a feeling it is a little of both.  

I have had her on gluc since diagnosis; 750mg for 55lb dog. I want to make sure that she is getting the max dosage for her weight. Should I up the dose? What about the dose for chondroitin? Are there max dosages for it? I forgot to ask the vet last time I was in.

Anything else anyone do for their HD dogs? Supplements, therapies? I try to swim her, but she has little prey drive and just looks at the stick and then at me and her eyes say "well, ain't you gonna get it?" So we do walks around the park, and yard play.

Also, does anyone else put their dogs on gluc even if they aren't dysplastic? What are the doses?

Thanks!


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## melissa mims (Jul 12, 2006)

Oh, and I feed a natural raw diet already.

Beat ya! :lol:


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

I've found one great thing you can get at the vet's called Glycoflex. My fiance's parent's old Eskie has HD as well as ED and has been on Stage III for 3 years.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

https://www.tahitiannoni.com/united_states/english/retail/store/subcategory/103376.html

I have my dog on the canine essentials. I started it due to a kidney disease, which with this supplement, the levels he had indicating kidney disease have, for now, stabilized. THe vet was surprised, actually, as the levels should have gone up in the month and a half I had the dog on the canine noni.

He has no other ailments (that I am aware of, including dysplasia) and seems/appears to be a very healthy dog. 

By the way, I take Tahitian Noni juice everyday for myself and have experienced benefits too! 

If anyone knows anything about the ingredients in the canine essentials aside from the noni fruit, please share.

Don't know as for specific glucosamine dosages. I know I use just 2 to 4 oz of the noni supplement per day.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This is in general, not as a response to any one message:

Please don't start your dog (or yourself) on a supplement without knowing the ingredients. 

I don't say this because of possibly dangerous ingredients as much as because of overlaps in ingredients that have ceilings of acceptable doses.

If we read all the ingredients, we're not as likely to oversupplement on something like, say, Vitamin A, which can be toxic in high doses.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

melissa mims said:


> My eldest female female has HD in her left hip. She is 6 yo, and has han only 2 acute pain episodes, both after intense exercise/jumping (before she was diagnosed). ....


More later, but number one to go with glucosamine (IMHO) is fish oil, plus Vitamin E in the form of mixed tocopherols:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=553


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

More already:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=2485#2485

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=618#618

These threads are specifically about joint health. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

melissa mims said:


> Oh, and I feed a natural raw diet already.
> 
> Beat ya! :lol:


Yes, you did! Good for you! =D>


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Here are the Canine Essentials Original Key Ingredients, per their site:

Noni Fruit and Blueberry Juice

DHA

Soy Lecithin

Vitamin E

END

Please note that although it doesn't have any glaring problems, and does have beneficial ingredients, it doesn't give the source of the one Omega 3 EFA (and source is important for dogs) or the amount of Vitamin E (or any ingredient), or whether the E is alpha or mixed tocopherols, or any other details. These details are lost to us in so-called proprietary formulas.

That said, there are beneficial flavonoids in the top two ingredients, and maybe in the others (if we knew amounts and sources). :wink:


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## melissa mims (Jul 12, 2006)

Thanks for you replies! Seems to be a flurry of questions about joint health.

I add fish oil/vita E (2000mg/200 IU, respectivly) to everyone's food. I know I could up this, but get a little leery about maxing out dosages. My dogs range in weight from 55-70lbs. I also give a general vitamin with Vit C (2000 mg) 3-4 times per week. I try not to over do the vitamins, because I feel that the natural diet covers a great deal already (and because, as Connie stated, the vitamins tend to overlap, and I don't want to risk ODing a fat soluble vitamin). But the fish oil, vita E, and gluc I use daily.

From my research, doses of glucosamine are 500mg for the first 25lbs, another 500mg for the next 25lbs; so in general 20mg/lb. Chondroitin 400mg/25lb, and so on. Sound about right?

I like the description of Acti-flex that Nancy (?) posted in another topic; there would be very little overlap between the different supplements. But the amoun would be so tiny!

Thanks everyone for you replies.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

melissa mims said:


> Thanks for you replies! Seems to be a flurry of questions about joint health.
> 
> I add fish oil/vita E (2000mg/200 IU, respectivly) to everyone's food. I know I could up this, but get a little leery about maxing out dosages. My dogs range in weight from 55-70lbs. I also give a general vitamin with Vit C (2000 mg) 3-4 times per week. .....


If you mean 2000 mg. of C (2 grams), that's a big dose even for a 150-pound person. Of course C is water-soluble, but still......... What vitamin supplement has 2000 mg. of C? Or did you mean that you add C to a multi? 

About the fish oil: 2 grams is good, IMHO! You could give a gram per 10 pounds of dog weight (again, for a dog in need of extra EFAs), according to some vet med articles I've read, gradually upping to that dose. But 2 grams is good for the weights you mentioned.

I give 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. (about 2 - 4 grams) distilled fish oil to my small and big dog, respectively, and that same dose of E (100 to 200 IU).


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## melissa mims (Jul 12, 2006)

Oops! The dosage is for 1 tbl spoon, and I feed about half that, so about 1000mg, about 3-4 times a week. No loose stools, upset stomach.

But I have heard of doses up to 2 gms for this size range; if I am not mistaken, Leerburg suplements this for their breeders, and I have seen this dose range referenced quite a few times when I did my original research on diet. But I could be wrong. Been a while since I looked up their menus.

I use B-naturals Daily Blend, which I don't use daily. The recommended dosage on the bottle is for 1/2 tablespoon, twice a day. Which would give 2000mg per day.

ETA:finished sentence!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Per their site: One tablespoon contains Vitamin A (5000 IU), Vitamin C (2000 mg), Vitamin D (400 IU), Vitamin E (400 IU), Vitamin B Stress Formula (75 mg), Selenium (75 mg), Bioflavanoids (100 mg), Kelp (500 mg), Alfalfa (500 mg) and Beef Liver Powder

Dosage:

Large dog dose (1/2 tblsp)

Medium dog dose (1 tsp.)
END QUOTE

Personally, I would say that a 55-pound dog was medium. But it's vague in the directions. These C and A amounts are high enough to check with them about the "medium" and "large" dog definitiions. JMO! :wink:


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## melissa mims (Jul 12, 2006)

Yep, and that is why I don't do the supplement thing daily, except for the ones I mentioned. 
Just looked at the actural scoop in the actual bottle and it is 1 tsp. Jeesh, you would think I had all this down cold! I spent 6 months researching this and calculating for final doses. That was 2 years ago, and I have forgotten the amounts; I just scoop and pour as I originally calculated. I always erred on underdosing, figuring that the diet itself would be adequate.

So I can up the dose of gluc and chondroitin to 1000/800. Continue with the EFA's and Vita E. Moderate exercise. And keep my fingers crossed.

Anything else I can do/add to the package?


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2006)

Just to be redundant....google Adequan.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> Just to be redundant....google Adequan.


This thread, given a few posts up in this very thread right here, is all about Adequan:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=618#618

And the other one I provided in the same post also addresses Adequan in detail. :lol: 

Scroooooll up............ see where it says "These posts are specifically about joint health?"

Both those threads talk about Adequan.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jenni Williams said:
> 
> 
> > Just to be redundant....google Adequan.
> ...


Or.......... you could google Adequan...... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

My apologies for not being clear in my previous post about supplements. I was trying to post quickly, which unfortunately, in this case proved to be somewhat confusing.

I give my dog the canine essentials original, which actually does not contain gluc., However, does contain Cetyl Myristoleate, please note link below, interesting information. However, the senior formula does contain glucosamine.

I verified and per 10 ml of the canine senior formula, there is not less than 30 mg of glucosamine.

I do know overall health, joint function, immunity, and focus are benefits noni fruit in and of itself is capable of aiding. I have experienced personally, and have witnessed it in my dog.

Specific Ingredients in Canine Essentials Original: (off the bottle)
Morinda Citrifolia (noni)
Water 
Blueberry Juice
Safflower Oil
Soy Lecithin
Fish Oil (information is proprietary)
Flax Seed Oil
Dl-alpha Tocopheryl acetate (vit E)
Marine Microalgae Oil (source of docosahexaenoic fatty acid) 
Propionic Acid (preservative) 
Xanthan Gum
Cetyl Myristoleate (http://www.glucosamine-arthritis.org/arthritis/cetyl-myristoleate-arthritis.html)
Sunflower Oil
Natural Mixed Tocopherols (incl. Vit C)
Rosemary Extract.

Know your ingredients, yes. However, I will openly admit, I am by no means a chemist and do not comprehend the myriad of synergistic effects. I know this supplement is working with my dog and his condition...lab results do not lie. 

I hope you find the supplement/glucosamine level that is right for your dog and better yet, you get to reap the benefits of a healthy GOOD to go dog!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, noni, like blueberries and cranberries, is loaded with flavonoids and plant sterols, which are potent anti-inflammation agents.

And this is a much better ingredients list than the web site list. It gives the source of the DHA as fish oil (good).

I don't think we have to be chemists, exactly, to gauge the benefits in a supplement, as long as we read the ingredients and make sure we have no overlap with other supplements, or with, say, fortified commercial food ---- especially of the oil-soluble vitamins.

In proprietary formulas, unless each ingredient is clearly non-toxic, even in large doses, I'd rather give each ingredient that I want to supplement separately, so I know exactly what dose I'm giving. Proprietary formulas not only don't let you know whether they contain enough of an ingredient, but also (sometimes) don't let you know whether they contain close to the maximum.

In this formula, with the details you have from the label, there's no problem like that.

In some, the amounts of glucosamine, Omega 3 EFAs, Vitamins C and A, and other ingredients are not specified. All these are supplements that have either a floor or a ceiling of beneficial amounts. Some, like Vitamin A, have both, and really can't be safely tossed into every supplement.

Thanks for that detailed list. :>)


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## melissa mims (Jul 12, 2006)

A friend at the club where I work my dogs has one of her dogs on Adequan; she swears by the stuff. But holy cripes is it expensive. 

I'll take it up with my vet next time I take her in. Thanks for the info.

She is not in any pain; we just returned from a run in the fields, as a matter of fact.  But, I just want make sure I have maxed out on all of the orals before I go to the injectables.

Thanks for all the links, Connie. I read them over.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

melissa mims said:


> A friend at the club where I work my dogs has one of her dogs on Adequan; she swears by the stuff. But holy cripes is it expensive. .......


Any chance you can tell me approx how expensive? Is it a per-injection charge, or maybe a per-series charge? Are we talking hundreds of dollars?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think you can get a horse version of Adequan a lot cheaper but the injection is, I think, direclty into the joint - I am not sure I would be comfortable with doing that myself (though I have hit just about every vein you can on a dog including the lingual (under the tongue) and done blood gases on the femoral artery). I had a friend do that with her dog (she is a serious horse person)

A lot of people sang the praises of Glycoflex III to me and I have used it for Cyra (severe dysplasia according the x-rays but she does not know that) and it has worked well. For the past month I have used a product called acti-flex 4000 that has similar ingredients and also worked quite well. I could tell some difference when I ran out of the Glycoflex for a few weeks - in that she was a bit stiff.

The best place for getting Glycoflex I have found is entirelypets.com


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## melissa mims (Jul 12, 2006)

"Holy cripes it is expensive" was a quote  She didn't go into numbers; expensive is relative.

I just googled it, and came up with some ball park numbers. The med itself runs around $50 a vial, 5cc's per vial. Dosage is 1cc per 50lbs. So it appears to be about $10 a dose (for a 50# dog). Loading dose at 2 per week, for one month, then as needed. Some dogs need it every 2 weeks, some need it every 3 months.

So when the math shakes down, it is not that expensive. I imagine there is a fair degree of mark up at the vet; plus if you are not comfortable giving the med yourself, there is an office visit fee.

Keep in mind that these are averages off the internet; the prices at the vet may be much higher, for various reasons.

Just called the vet; prices are about $40 per shot. A lot of markup.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2006)

Forgot to mention: I use the horse Adequan. It's more potent, so it's less expensive. I dial it down to an appropriate dosage, and you can buy it in an intra-articular or an intra-muscular. For dogs, they use the IM, so I get the horse IM formula. The main difference is that they put little silhouettes of doggies on the dog formula, and little horsies on the horse formula. The horse vials are meant to be used in one injection, and the dog vials are multi-shot. It's WAY cheaper to go the horse route! BTW-all the results I've seen on film were attained using the horse Adequan. In fact, I've never spoken to anyone who's ever used the canine version.


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

If you have a good vet they won't charge you for an exam fee every time you come in for an Adequan inj. We would have dogs that would come in and march right in the back and get their shot while their owners paid for it. They charged, at the place I worked $40 for the first 2 shots, then $25 the rest of the times for life.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2006)

It's not a hard inj. to give. It does supposedly burn upon injection, but I don't think it's THAT bad that most of you couldn't do it yourselves. Caleb just sits in the chair he's not supposed to sit on and tries to hide his thighs under the cushion, but relents and really doesn't seem to mind it too badly. He'd prefer that I not do it, but doesn't whine or cry or anything. A few vets will show you how to do it yourself; it's worth a try and saves you time and money.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Giving an IM injection in a dog is not that hard when you get to that point.

I would not hesitate a bit to buy it myself and give the shots.

Right now, my problem with Cyra is keeping her from being too wild and crazy - so we will know when she needs more than she is getting now with the oral supplements. Plus, she is quite the drama queen when she does hurt, in any way, always has been.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2006)

Well, drama may make an additional person necessary. I am lucky enough that if I ask Caleb to "wait" til I'm finished, he will. I don't want to imagine trying to do this if I had to fight him to accomplish the task.


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