# Breeding



## Timothy Stacy

"EXPERIENCE". I hear breeders say 30 years experience yet they are still importing bitches and don't even have a second or third generation of dogs. So does that mean 30 years of shitty litters and nothing worth keeping?

I really think a lot of breeders here do not want to give another breeder credit here or get a new stud from a breeder here. Some won't even breed their females to a dog with an American Kennel name attached to it even though it might be the perfect fit for their female. Maybe they have to much pride. That is one of the biggest difference between Europe and the USA breders. Breeders here just keep importing dogs even though all the lines are already here.


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> "EXPERIENCE". I hear breeders say 30 years experience yet they are still importing bitches and don't even have a second or third generation of dogs. So does that mean 30 years of shitty litters and nothing worth keeping?
> 
> I really think a lot of breeders here do not want to give another breeder credit here or get a new stud from a breeder here. Some won't even breed their females to a dog with an American Kennel name attached to it even though it might be the perfect fit for their female. Maybe they have to much pride. That is one of the biggest difference between Europe and the USA breders. Breeders here just keep importing dogs even though all the lines are already here.



America is very big compared to the home of the Malinois in Europe "Belgium" and the "vacation homes" of France, Holland, Germany :mrgreen: They come to us for Quarter Horses as we are the king when it comes to our American Breed of horse. They have enough sense to realize we know more than they do when it comes to the breed of horse that we have developed for generations. 

For me in SoCal to fly to the east coast is almost as expensive as to fly to Europe. America is huge compared to the countries in Western Europe. I'll fly to either for the right stud for a female. I flew to FL to use Masters and it was a round trip ticket of $780 + $150 each way for the bitch. 

In Europe there are more choices as there are more breeders of working malinois in a concentrated area of geography. Also, there are more sport clubs and so it's easier to get an idea of what a dog produces. 

Sometimes the right dog or bloodline is not close and available and there are just more choices in Europe. I think it's ego to think "we have it all here". If you go to the NVBK or other sport Championships, you can see we don't have it all. 

I do make my dogs available at stud and breeders use them here. I don't care if it's papered NVBK, AKC, FCI, but it needs to be a good match for my female and be available at stud and available when your female is in season.

I for one am combining the Kim and Espoir du Boscaille, Zodt and Lobo (Atos). Where are these lines here at stud at the moment? Also, the stud dog can't just have these lines, he must be extreme with a lot of heart and decent structure.

Maybe with the way the "bad" dog laws and breeding regs (DNA). are going in Europe, all the good dogs will end up over here soon.


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## Anna Kasho

I took that quote to mean, holding back promising females from litters and breeding them, for several generations. Developing your own mother line, isn't that what is meant? Not where the stud dog comes from...


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## Debbie Skinner

Anna Kasho said:


> I took that quote to mean, holding back promising females from litters and breeding them, for several generations. Developing your own mother line, isn't that what is meant? Not where the stud dog comes from...



Oh, then I guess I didn't get it. Thanks for the clarification. Got it now.


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## Anna Kasho

Debbie Skinner said:


> Oh, then I guess I didn't get it. Thanks for the clarification. Got it now.


You replied to what Tim wrote, and I was responding to the first part that he quoted 

My first mal's breeder holds back puppies from litters based on breeding goals overtime, and travels to use the best suitable studs. I believe the eventual goal is to have the right lines in the kennel and to be able to bring them together with in-kennel breeding combinations? My second puppy from that kennel is a little niece of my first dog, and both share many similar traits. Both are dogs I enjoy having. So I am more familiar with that practice. I have no "EXPERIENCE" breeding as meant in that quote, lol, at least not with dogs. I have 4th generation conure babies in my aviary though.


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## Timothy Stacy

But don't we have all the lines here also. We have countless A'Tim offspring to every other dog in NVBK to French Ring. Including the offspring of Zodt and everything else you have Debbie, like Du Bocaillie, to all the top French ring lines. We obviously don't have the NVBK dog that is trialing on the field today but I'd guarantee we have dogs off of the parents and grandparents over here. 
How can anyone here breed with purpose and grab the offspring off litters who are showing the desirable trait(whatever the trait might be) if we just constantly keep importing dogs off the "next best thing" and never build our own lines off what is here.
I don't know how much of this myth is true but I heard the stud Arabian horse 1'000's of years ago was picked by running all the male horse's through the desert until only one was standing, and that would be the stud. Obviously I'd take that not to be absolutely true but that is breeding for purpose. They needed a horse that could go long distances without water and if the horse collapsed in the desert you'd be dead.
I think there are more Europeans breeding specific traits. Like the Boscaillie breeder(who is no longer living) who was breeding a lot for aggression,size, and power from what I know. So if I had a french line that was losing it's edge I could go back to these bigger stronger lines since the french lines already had the athleticism. Or on the other hand if I were breeding super agile fast maybe smaller dogs. I don't see a lot of kennels here breeding for specific traits is all I'm getting at here.
What really sucks are the kennels that import dogs here and never work them but breed them regardless if they are good or not. Yeah it's 100% European lines.


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> But don't we have all the lines here also. We have countless A'Tim offspring to every other dog in NVBK to French Ring. Including the offspring of Zodt and everything else you have Debbie, like Du Bocaillie, to all the top French ring lines. We obviously don't have the NVBK dog that is trialing on the field today but I'd guarantee we have dogs off of the parents and grandparents over here....
> .



It's easy to get Espoir x French lines, however show me the concentrated Espoir blood to take a female back to w/o the small, speedy French lines in the mix? Actually it's hard finding that anywhere. Where is the concentrated Kim, please tell me of these dogs w/o the mix of French dogs? Give me some names of stud dogs?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Timothy Stacy said:


> But don't we have all the lines here also.


Sometimes it's not a case of having the lines, but having the dogs from that line that are the producers. Just because you have a brother to dog X doesn't mean he can produce like dog X. 



> I don't see a lot of kennels here breeding for specific traits is all I'm getting at here.
> What really sucks are the kennels that import dogs here and never work them but breed them regardless if they are good or not. Yeah it's 100% European lines.


I think the kennels that are a few generations deep are breeding for specific traits. The people that just breed a litter every couple of years from the dog they happen to have are probably also looking for specific traits, but aren't creating a line known for those traits. I'm ignoring the people just producing pups to make a buck, they are looking for specific traits, but in those cases it's just whatever they think is currently the most marketable.


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## Mike Scheiber

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Sometimes it's not a case of having the lines, but having the dogs from that line that are the producers. Just because you have a brother to dog X doesn't mean he can produce like dog X.


Isn't that the collateral result of the way many Mals are bred "2 good dogs lets breed them" Or individuals inturpitaion of what is deemed a good dog.


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## Daryl Ehret

I've imported several from europe, but not always met my full expectations doing so. By developing a motherline, I'd ultimately expect more control and better predictability in what I eventually produce. It will however be a rather longer process than importing, considering the ageing of generations, the process of certifying and titling the producers.

That, of couse would be easier, if handler/trainers among our limited venues of work weren't _also selecting their dogs from europe._ It's an uphill battle, more difficult for american breeders than european breeders to adhere to certain standards, actual genepools aside. There's plenty POS dogs from either hemisphere. And the breeder/handler ratios between continents seem as polarized opposites to me.


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## Timothy Stacy

People have tried to move the Boscaillie lines somewhat unsuccessfully in Europe(hear say)after the death of it's originator but I don't think there outlook was the same as the founder.
If it's not about pedigree but the actual dog then I'd venture to say there are a few dogs like Kim du Boscaillie here in the states. Are they producers like him, don't know but the same can be said about the producing ability of the grandsons of Kim. 

Here is a future line breeding litter on Kim
http://www.likeahurricane.nl//?L=NL&P=5&S=10
I think he shows up 3 to 4 times in the pedigree. 

Daryl those are valid points about dogs from Europe not living up to expectations.I'd venture to say it happens more times than not, just a guess.


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## Don Turnipseed

Timothy, the imortation of German bloodlines is the way it is done in many breeds. As Daryl,points out, there are POS's on both sides of the pond, but if you are not breeding with a specific goal other than producing saleable pups, importing new dogs every year or so makes them marketable when compared to using American lines. People are fickled for sure. If they see you are importing German dogs, you must have better dogs than those produced from American lines. There are a few airedale breeders using this ploy. The German dogs are played up on their websites and people buy.....doesn't mean they are good dogs.


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## Timothy Stacy

Don Turnipseed said:


> Timothy, the imortation of German bloodlines is the way it is done in many breeds. As Daryl,points out, there are POS's on both sides of the pond, but if you are not breeding with a specific goal other than producing saleable pups, importing new dogs every year or so makes them marketable when compared to using American lines. People are fickled for sure. If they see you are importing German dogs, you must have better dogs than those produced from American lines. There are a few airedale breeders using this ploy. The German dogs are played up on their websites and people buy.....doesn't mean they are good dogs.


Yep exactly, people are naive about these imported dogs. I don't know much at all about GSD's but when Bernhard Flinks was here he said " The future of the GSD is here in the USA" He was basically saying that there are better dogs here.


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> People have tried to move the Boscaillie lines somewhat unsuccessfully in Europe(hear say)after the death of it's originator but I don't think there outlook was the same as the founder.
> If it's not about pedigree but the actual dog then I'd venture to say there are a few dogs like Kim du Boscaillie here in the states. Are they producers like him, don't know but the same can be said about the producing ability of the grandsons of Kim.
> 
> Here is a future line breeding litter on Kim
> http://www.likeahurricane.nl//?L=NL&P=5&S=10
> I think he shows up 3 to 4 times in the pedigree.
> 
> 
> I'm aware of Raymond's dogs. I've known him from when he bred Beaucerons years ago. I've visited him in Belgium.


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## Timothy Stacy

Raymond Lebon, is that right?
What was his intentions that you seen?


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> People have tried to move the Boscaillie lines somewhat unsuccessfully in Europe(hear say)after the death of it's originator but I don't think there outlook was the same as the founder.
> If it's not about pedigree but the actual dog then I'd venture to say there are a few dogs like Kim du Boscaillie here in the states. Are they producers like him, don't know but the same can be said about the producing ability of the grandsons of Kim.
> 
> Here is a future line breeding litter on Kim
> http://www.likeahurricane.nl//?L=NL&P=5&S=10
> I think he shows up 3 to 4 times in the pedigree.
> 
> BTW, these are two dogs bred by Raymond Stockis in Belgium and now used for breeding in Holland. Shame on them for importing dogs and not breeding their own! \\/


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## Timothy Stacy

Quote--BTW, these are two dogs bred by Raymond Stockis in Belgium and now used for breeding in Holland. Shame on them for importing dogs and not breeding their own!







____________

Hitting below the belt minus 2 points!


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## Debbie Skinner

Regis Lebon is Boscaille. I had the one old dog from him: 
http://www.pawsnclaws.us/yelo_ped.htm Yelo du Boscaille and then Dexter's dam is is Yelo's sister.
Regis owned/bought Espoir "Micky" too.


Raymond Stockis is the Belgian breeder "Bois de la Limited" that originally bred working Beaucerons. The Dutch breeder link that you gave is advertising 2 of Raymond's dogs being bred together in Holland.


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> Raymond Lebon, is that right?
> What was his intentions that you seen?



What?????


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## Timothy Stacy

Sorry, I thought you met the original owner, Regis Lebon.
Was asking what his vision was in breeding.


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> Sorry, I thought you met the original owner, Regis Lebon.
> Was asking what his vision was in breeding.


I never met Regis Lebon. I only know what I've been told by friends in France and Belgium. He had money to breed and buy what he wanted. He bred horses as well. And bought and bred what he considered the best in both. He bought a lot of dogs from the NVBK and made them his own for breeding. I love certain dogs that come from "Micky" Espoir (Grobber) and also from Kim (Dick II) and the combining of the 2.

Do you know Kim and/or Espoir dogs in the USA? Or, Dick II, Scaramouche, Erk, Grobber? 

The litter you mentioned was in Holland has A'tim on the top and 2x Kim on the bottom..but again it's across the ocean and through the woods :-D


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> Quote--BTW, these are two dogs bred by Raymond Stockis in Belgium and now used for breeding in Holland. Shame on them for importing dogs and not breeding their own!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________
> 
> Hitting below the belt minus 2 points!


Joking. :-D It's in fun. I'm still waiting for the list of those dogs in America. HELP ME TIM!  Save me $$ on Airline Tickets, PLEASE!


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## Timothy Stacy

top side Sam comes off Kim.
Kim shows up in Yala twice.
Tornado twice

I count 5 times Kim is in there

Didn't you breed Yelo, there you go
You didn't even have to import him, he was already here for you.:lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How long ago did Kim pass on ?? For me, the guy is dead. If you like a style of dog, then obviously you try and breed closely to it, however, at what point in the breeding do you make yourself your "own" dog and start relying on your "own" Kim, or Judex, or G'Bibber, or G'Vitou ??

I think our dogs like this have ended up in the dead end known as law enforcement. : )

Plus, one knucklehead dog 3 4 5 generations back.....does he really count anymore ??


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## Timothy Stacy

Espoir is in my female. Far back but then again I don't see it up close anymore. 

Ivan and all the dogs off Turcodos have Espoir:grin:!


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## Timothy Stacy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How long ago did Kim pass on ?? For me, the guy is dead. If you like a style of dog, then obviously you try and breed closely to it, however, at what point in the breeding do you make yourself your "own" dog and start relying on your "own" Kim, or Judex, or G'Bibber, or G'Vitou ??
> 
> I think our dogs like this have ended up in the dead end known as law enforcement. : )
> 
> Plus, one knucklehead dog 3 4 5 generations back.....does he really count anymore ??


Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kyle Sprag

My dog Pedro is a Espoir Grandson.


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## Timothy Stacy

There you go, thanks Kyle. You are pretty close to Debbie too. Is he a man eater?
Was he imported???????


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## Kyle Sprag

Timothy Stacy said:


> There you go, thanks Kyle. You are pretty close to Debbie too. Is he a man eater?
> Was he imported???????


He has the French Stuff Debbie wrote about.

Not what I would call a "man eater"


He was imported from France to Belgium by Johan at Van De Duvetorre and then imported to the US around 3.5 years ago. I have had him for a couple of years.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/belgian_malinois/pedigree/561144.html


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> top side Sam comes off Kim.
> Kim shows up in Yala twice.
> Tornado twice
> 
> I count 5 times Kim is in there
> 
> Didn't you breed Yelo, there you go
> You didn't even have to import him, he was already here for you.:lol:


I don't know those particular dogs to know if the pedigree is true or not. With Boscaille as with many others, you can't go by the paper, you need to know the true bloodlines. For example, most Lebon's pedigrees have Kim on them and they also say Kim->Espoir, but that "ain't" true. I don't know those dogs in particular or their qualities (the Bois de la Limite dogs being bred). 

But, regardless those dogs are in Holland. I can't drive there. ](*,)

I got Yelo when he was old and in bad shape and got one litter from him. Litter had one female and the rest were males (one is Drako) . The female pup was ok, but not exceptional. She was very confident, but not the bite I want and she wasn't that big...took more after the mom in size (A'Tim daughter). I tried 3-4 times to breed Yelo w/o success because he was almost sterile. I wish the Olry or Saida breedings with Yelo would of taken as that's the direction I wanted to go in.


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## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How long ago did Kim pass on ?? For me, the guy is dead. If you like a style of dog, then obviously you try and breed closely to it, however, at what point in the breeding do you make yourself your "own" dog and start relying on your "own" Kim, or Judex, or G'Bibber, or G'Vitou ??
> 
> I think our dogs like this have ended up in the dead end known as law enforcement. : )
> 
> Plus, one knucklehead dog 3 4 5 generations back.....does he really count anymore ??


As long as you breed the "knucklehead dog" in the next, next, next generations and of course I'm all for line-breeding, but if left to my own dogs, soon the family tree wouldn't fork at all. You need to bring in related dogs that are similar in the type to line breed with also. I do my best. But, need to go to Europe sometimes...besides the food is awesome in France. :-D


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> Espoir is in my female. Far back but then again I don't see it up close anymore.
> 
> Ivan and all the dogs off Turcodos have Espoir:grin:!



In the nose-bleed section of his ped and 1x. 

That's why for me Masters was interesting due to maternal side being from the same breeder as my "Orly". Orly goes to Espoir close as any still around (Grand-daughter and Great-Grand) line-bred. I'm not going into any more detail so don't ask.

Keep trying Tim, you haven't found me one yet! :-D


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## Timothy Stacy

Damn it, I'll have to run an ad.LOL

Quote" I'm not going into any more detail so don't ask."
I know what your talking about


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> Damn it, I'll have to run an ad.LOL



Thanks!=D> Then you have to hook the breeders that are still around to a polygraph to get the truth from them, then talk to the decoys or go see for yourself to see if the dogs in the ped and the actual dog and the siblings are good! This will benefit all the Malinois breeders! Thank you, Thank you. Then we breed to the dog and hopefully there is a good result or start over again. Ain't breeding fun? :-D

I have to go watch True Blood now!


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## Timothy Stacy

Debbie Skinner said:


> Thanks!=D> Then you have to hook the breeders that are still around to a polygraph to get the truth from them, then talk to the decoys or go see for yourself to see if the dogs in the ped and the actual dog and the siblings are good! This will benefit all the Malinois breeders! Thank you, Thank you. Then we breed to the dog and hopefully there is a good result or start over again. Ain't breeding fun? :-D
> 
> I have to go watch True Blood now!


What? Your making me do this, I only volunteered for the light work!!! For the record I like your dogs a lot. Wish there were some around here!


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## mike suttle

I have a female out of Oslo X Orly.


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> What? Your making me do this, I only volunteered for the light work!!! For the record I like your dogs a lot. Wish there were some around here!



Saying something nice to get out of work!  There's the one male in IL, but he's one of the knuckle headed police dogs. The department seems pretty strict about not using the dogs for breeding though.


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## Debbie Skinner

mike suttle said:


> I have a female out of Oslo X Orly.



Mike you have a PM :neutral:


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## Timothy Stacy

Debbie Skinner said:


> Saying something nice to get out of work!  There's the one male in IL, but he's one of the knuckle headed police dogs. The department seems pretty strict about not using the dogs for breeding though.


I already contacted him, no go on breeding. 
Maybe a puppy might attack somebody and they'll be responsible. LOL
He was bred by civilians, god forbid keeping a dog like mean green going.


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> I already contacted him, no go on breeding.
> Maybe a puppy might attack somebody and they'll be responsible. LOL
> He was bred by civilians, god forbid keeping a dog like mean green going.


It's a real shame that fear of lawsuits and legislation is making it harder to breed good dogs. Maybe after he is retired he will be available. 

That puppy always had an attitude and bit extremely hard with a lot of heart. He was the odd looking one in the bunch with a big, rounder head, shorter coat. When I sold him as a pup, he was to be titled in sport and still remain available for breeding ](*,) Well, then he was sold to the police and now it's a problem to use him. 

Yes, he was called the "green-meanie" as he was the green collar boy from the Dexter/Orly (1st breeding). Registered Borly O.V. after his dam Orly as he took after her side in looks. Then he had the callname "Tito" and now with the police he's a duel dog called "Voodoo". It was hard for me to track him down as I had to do it on my own.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That is why I call PD's the black hole. Selling them our "real" dogs has hurt the next generation of "real" dogs.

Wish it was otherwise. But then again, most dog handlers in the US are barely able to train the average working dogs.


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## Daryl Ehret

If only they had thought to collect and freeze before selling.


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## Debbie Skinner

Daryl Ehret said:


> If only they had thought to collect and freeze before selling.



I sold him at about 14 weeks old to someone that promised to keep him and train him and I'd have access to him later for breeding. Then the guy sold him to the police at around 1- 1 1/2 years old because the dog was too crazy and serious and for the $$. I found out a few months later. The puppy buyer didn't tell me directly for about a year. I'd ask how the dog was doing and he would say great. I did this for some time just to see how long he would keep up the story...he kept it going for months and months. 

However, there are SOOOO many dogs from the past that I wish I had collected on before they were sold or too old or dead............. Even though I've had really crappy luck with A.I. I still wish I'd of collected on the exceptional ones.


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## Daryl Ehret

I've repeatedly had crappy luck on AI, but 100% success when surgically implanted.


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## Debbie Skinner

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've repeatedly had crappy luck on AI, but 100% success when surgically implanted.



I've heard that's the way to go (surgical), but haven't took the step yet.


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## Timothy Stacy

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've repeatedly had crappy luck on AI, but 100% success when surgically implanted.


I have some frozen but I'm a little hesitant on using it.
Did you have any side effects at all with future breedings on the same female?
What size litters did you have off surgical?
A friend did a surgical AI successfully on a maiden female so that makes me hopeful. Although they say to let them have one litter first before wasting your money on a unproven female. Still makes me nervous since I don't know to many people who have done it.


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## Jason Sidener

Because of the life of frozen semen is so short when thawed, surgically implanting it is the only option that makes sense. If your reproduction vet is telling you other wise I would suggest finding a new reproduction vet.

Chilled semen lives longer and can be done either way but surgically does have a slightly higher success rate.


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## Jason Sidener

Did you have any side effects at all with future breedings on the same female? 

No

What size litters did you have off surgical?

8

It was a chilled semen AI surgically implanted.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What dog do you have frozen off of ?


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## Nicole Stark

My current dog was a product of surgical implant and came from a litter of 10. Her mother, the same, and from a litter of 15. These were both first time matings in older (4-5 year old bitches). Both procedures were done by Dr Hutchison, who is considered to be one of the leading reproductive specialists available:

DR. ROBERT V. HUTCHISON

Education
1972 The Ohio State University DVM 

Special Interest(s)
Canine Reproduction, Infertility, Pediatric Care
Dr. Hutchison is the director of the International Canine Semen Bank - Ohio, a canine frozen semen center which he started in 1984. He speaks nationally and internationally to veterinary and breeder groups. Dr. Hutchison has published numerous articles, authored textbook chapters on canine reproduction, and produced a DVD on dog breeding which is available at Animal Clinic Northview.


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## Jason Sidener

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What dog do you have frozen off of ?


Chilled not frozen. Chilled is used to keep the semen alive long enough to over night ship it. Frozen will keep pretty much forever. 

To answer your question about what dog: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/439069.html


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## Jason Sidener

Nicole Stark said:


> Both procedures were done by Dr Hutchison, who is considered to be one of the leading reproductive specialists available


I would trust Dr. Hutchison to do an AI for me.


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## Timothy Stacy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What dog do you have frozen off of ?


Yack Van Joefarm= Stoned Van Duvetorre X Quny Van Joefarm(Roe Van Joefarm's sister)
It is line bred to my female Fida on the combo that produce Roe 3Xs and Elgos twice. 
It also goes to my female Carna with Roe and Quny, (Galliard du Boscaillie and Espoir) and a 3x3 on Elgos 

If I used a male off this current litter and bred it to Carna I'd have to look but combinations would show up quite often with all the dogs mentioned above. Maybe to much, I'd have to look at it. 

There are lots of dogs here in North America I like before I'd try this and after dealing with all the knuckleheads on this litter, I'm not in a hurry!

I do like the endoscope option!


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## Jason Sidener

Yeah now that I reread it makes sense he was asking Tim


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## Timothy Stacy

Sounds like it went well for you everyone!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Jason, have you used Fetz before ???


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## Jason Sidener

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jason, have you used Fetz before ???


No that was the first and only breeding I used him for.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How are they working out ?? Sorry, I haven't been paying much attention to litters an stuff that you are doing. I normally do, just been busy lately.


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## Jason Sidener

Over all it was just an ok litter. I was not happy with it at all. The best male from that litter (the one Michele McAtee had) I am told is now a dual purpose police dog (have tried to confirm this but I can not get replies to my phone calls or emails). The best female from that litter is owned by James Larkey. He is actively working her in Schutzhund and has got a BH on her and working towards is Sch 1. Last December I tested her and was unhappy with how she handled a little pressure.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

As sharp as many people have told me that Fetz is, I would not expect a good litter.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've repeatedly had crappy luck on AI, but 100% success when surgically implanted.


I just did a surgical AI and it didn't take. But if I do another AI, it will be surgical again. Uses less semen, and when the male is dead and only a limited was collected that's got to be taken into account. Plus it does have the highest rate of success, even if mine wasn't successful. Actually now that I think about it, I've never had an AI take, surgical or otherwise. Not that I've tried a bunch, but I did a "side by side" AI in Oregon also, the male was to old to do the breeding naturally, and that one didn't take either. I'll still do them, but whenever possible it will be live cover, I'd rather ship my female then deal with an AI.


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## Konnie Hein

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I just did a surgical AI and it didn't take.


Sorry to hear that. Was looking forward to seeing those pups. :sad:


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## Daryl Ehret

Timing was off? Good progesterone testing essential, the usual success should be about 94%-99%.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Daryl Ehret said:


> Timing was off? Good progesterone testing essential, the usual success should be about 94%-99%.


Timing shouldn't have been a problem, we did progesterone testing every other day until it hit the right numbers and I used the local experts that everyone recommends, not just some random vet. I just happened to hit that 1-6%, someone has to I guess or it would be 100% successful.


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## ann schnerre

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> As sharp as many people have told me that Fetz is, I would not expect a good litter.


why is this jeff? i'm really curious as to why Fetz' sharpness equals why you wouldn't expect a good litter.

when i met him (he seemed to like me and would come lie down on my feet or stand next to me when given the chance), he was def not a dog one wanted to stare at unless you had some equipment on....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sharp dogs don't produce as well as I like. I should say dogs that are the correct definition of sharp, not some hyped up nervey dog. Not saying that fetz is either, I know nothing of the dog other than some pics and what people have told me.

I have bred sharp dogs in the past, and never got anything like them. Heard the same from other breeders as well. I was just curious. I does suck, as the dogs I bred were very good dogs.


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## ann schnerre

so what IS the "correct" def of "sharp"? in your world?

as with everything else, semantics is "all". for a base-line of where i'm coming from; sharpness is the threshold that provokes a response (in this case barking/biting).

so why would a sharpxsharp breeding not produce sharp pups?


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## Jason Hammel

can I ask a noob question? Now in line breeding tho done for generations isn't that where you sometimes breed in relatives. Why is this ok? Isn't that the sort of thing that brings about serious genetic defects?

Wouldn't outcrossing or consistently bringing in new (of course healthy) blood be more desireable so that you lines remain free of genetic defect. Of course that requires alot of work to insure your not inbreeding.

I am just now starting to study animal husbandry so be gentle with my question lololol


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## Ashley Campbell

Jason Hammel said:


> can I ask a noob question? Now in line breeding tho done for generations isn't that where you sometimes breed in relatives. Why is this ok? Isn't that the sort of thing that brings about serious genetic defects?
> 
> Wouldn't outcrossing or consistently bringing in new (of course healthy) blood be more desireable so that you lines remain free of genetic defect. Of course that requires alot of work to insure your not inbreeding.
> 
> I am just now starting to study animal husbandry so be gentle with my question lololol


If it comes out shitty, it's inbred...if it's great, it's linebred :mrgreen:

Haha just kidding...

Just like with bad traits linebreeding can bring out the excellent traits in a line, and because it's on both sides of the pedigree through the same dogs it's more likely to occur. Sometimes it doesn't work out so great, but if you are concentrating on a specific trait you are more likely to achieve it through selective linebreeding than you would outcrossing. You might get undesireable traits with linebreeding just as you may concentrate on the good qualities.

With outcrossing you can get other "hidden" recessive qualities that you may be unaware of that may pair poorly with the other dog/bitch. With linebred dogs it's more of a "known" thing because genetically they are very similar.

Just my 2 cents on it though, I don't deal with dog breeding but have seen how this works in horses. An example would be we bred Horse A with Horse B - Horse B was Horse A's grandmother. A foal was produced, absolutely stunning and very even temperament. We bred the foal that was produced to his father's full sister...the colt from that mating was absolutely gorgeous and better looking than his father even, but a total basketcase.

So, with that linebreeding experiment, the original mating produced a good solid and sound animal, further linebreeding produced a sound and beautiful animal that is far beyond his father's potential...but he's absolutely stupid. Good and bad traits both expressed.

But back on track here, when you outcross you have the same chances of expressing good and bad traits. You could essentially have half a little that is just like mom or just like dad, some with the good and some with less than desireable traits. It's less of a crapshoot breeding animals that are already very similar genetically, you have an idea of what will be produced, though exceptions occur.


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## Jason Hammel

thank you that helped. oh so much to learn.


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## Don Turnipseed

](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Connie Sutherland

Well, Don, I was waiting for your response. Somehow I expected it to be longer. :lol: :lol:


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## Ashley Campbell

Hey I'm open minded, that is just my take on it, if I am wrong, please explain


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## Don Turnipseed

](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) lol


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## Don Turnipseed

Ashley, there is a big difference between horses and dogs. Differences like 1 foal versus 8 to 12 pups. Inbreeding has it's downsides and it's upsides.Here is a 12th gen pedigree(last 5 generations of 12). Is this linebreeding or inbreeding?


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## Daryl Ehret

It seemed a great explanation to me. I think the most dangerous thing about inbreeding, is the irrationalized fear or the disdain that is commonly associated toward it.

As I've mentioned either in this forum or another, it's less merciful to unknowingly continually perpetuate an undesireable genetic condition, by way of continual outcrossing, and causing a widespread effect that could never be purged from the breed, and will always remain a risk (i.e., what HYPP did to quarterhorses, traced to a single culprit, "Impressive").

In regards to early identification and damage control for genetic defects, instead of affecting multiple litters over widespread and continued generations, you can "nip it in the bud" with linebreeding. Linebreeding also leads to higher productive output of overall litter quality, by at least 50%.


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## Ashley Campbell

My opinion (which means a whole lotta nothing when it comes to this stuff) is that it's linebreeding. Mom and dad are first cousins, so not entirely that close. Has there been some "inbreeding" by the strict definition, yes, maternal grandparents are full brother and sister. 

I have to admit, that was a good confusing one, lol. So, now tell me I'm wrong and where.


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## Ashley Campbell

Daryl Ehret said:


> It seemed a great explanation to me. I think the most dangerous thing about inbreeding, is the irrationalized fear or the disdain that is commonly associated toward it.
> 
> As I've mentioned either in this forum or another, it's less merciful to unknowingly continually perpetuate an undesireable genetic condition, by way of continual outcrossing, and causing a widespread effect that could never be purged from the breed, and will always remain a risk (i.e., what HYPP did to quarterhorses, traced to a single culprit, "Impressive").
> 
> In regards to early identification and damage control for genetic defects, instead of affecting multiple litters over widespread and continued generations, you can "nip it in the bud" with linebreeding. Linebreeding also leads to higher productive output of overall litter quality, by at least 50%.


HYPP was exactly what I had in mind when I read the question. Conformation doesn't amount to a hill of beans for my horses, one of them is downright FUGLY, but an excellent working horse. I wouldn't breed him (had him gelded anyway), but he's a good one. Like the colt I mentioned, he's beautiful, but stupid as a box of hair...I call that a failure in linebreeding, but it did help us to narrow down where he got his spooky traits from and we know not to put her in the loop next time. The linebreeding brought the undesireable trait in the clear wide open within 2 generations.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ashleys post was more of a sitting on the fence Daryl. Your post was a good post in several ways. Proponents of assortive breeding are blowing more smoke at people than they will ever realize and they domit in the name of diversity. What good is the diversity if they have spred undesireable genes through an entire genepool. What Ashley said wasn't necessarily any more wrong than it was right.
With tight linebreeding and inbreeding, you know the faults in short order so you can evaluate the dogs you are working with more accurately. If the downside can be safely dealt with, you proceed. If it can't, you start over. People that don't approve of inbreeding make up all kinds of BS that is blown out of proportion.
Here is a good example of how it works. I am going to use a tv commercial that is presently airing on cervical cancer. It is directed towards moms to get them to take their teenage daughters in for a vaccination to "maybe" lessen the risk. They say that there are 30 new cases diagnosed every day. I an assuming that the figures are for the US. That makes about 11,000 cases a year. We have a population last I heard of about 750,000,000 people of which let's say 400,000,000 are women. Break it down. That is 11 out of 40,000 women will be diagnosed with cervical cancer in a year. Withy the great track record of the new phamaceuticals on the maket that are noiw being sued, I would say the vaccination is a higher risk than the cervical cancer. It is much the same thing with inbreeding. They talk about mutations, deformities poor health, shorter life spans, weaker immune systems but, they don't ever mention that all the same stuff can happen to any dogs.


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## Ashley Campbell

Sorry if it was an "on the fence" answer. I believe line-breeding is a good thing, it does help you weed out bad traits. I also find that out-crossing also has it's time and place and can be beneficial or detrimental...like I said, linebreeding is less of a crap shoot because you are working in a less diverse genetic base. I should have mentioned that when you out-cross consisently (as was noted with the HYPP) that you can start a wildfire and to the entire detriment of anything you are breeding. Had they not bred Impressive to any mare that could stand, it would be less prevalent and wouldn't affect the amount of horses it does. Sorry I'm trying to put it into terms that I can understand as I'm not all knee-deep in dog pedigrees like horses.

Sorry I'm not anti-linebreeding at all, if done considerately and culling of undesireable traits is done it's a good thing, if it's allowed to continue say with dogs that have a genetic disease like Von Willebrands, then you can see the detriment it can cause.

I don't see a right or wrong answer to it, that's why the little smiley bashing his face into the brick wall made me ask. Can you f--- up linebreeding...sure! You can do the same with outcrosses - it seems like it's almost the same argument that Labradoodle folks have with the hybrid vigor BS.


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## Jason Hammel

as for me I don't ride a short bus I'm just ignorant on the entire matter and trying to learn.


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## kristin tresidder

Don Turnipseed said:


> Is this linebreeding or inbreeding?


 
linebreeding.


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## Don Turnipseed

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ashley, there is a big difference between horses and dogs. Differences like 1 foal versus 8 to 12 pups. Inbreeding has it's downsides and it's upsides.Here is a 12th gen pedigree(last 5 generations of 12). Is this linebreeding or inbreeding?


Maybe we should start a separate thread. This could be interesting depending on ones view point. Looking at the bottom of the pedigree, Wild Bill and Jessie are littermates off of Hunter/Maddison, who are 1/2 bro/sis off of Winchester. The Winchester/Annie-O cross is interesting because Annie-0 is not only his 1/2 sister but she is bred off of his mother, Elizabeth and his nephew, Higgins. Farther back, Higgins is off of Winchester's littermate brother, Reminton and Higgins grandmother is Elizabeth.

Looking at the top in the granddam is Jenny, lined up with Wild Bill and Jessie....all three are littermates off of Hunter/Maddison, In the great grandparents, colum opf males, Titan is the odd dog out but he is Hunters half brother. Molly Dolly Varden looks good until you go back a generation off the paper and you will see Winchester/ Annie-O are her grandparents. 
My question is, when you are looking at other pedigrees like this one, do you just look at each individual cross, say grandmother to grandson, and call it linebreeding, or do you take into account the cumulative effect over a number of generations. Electra has an inbred coefficient of over 40%, Wyatt is just shy of 30%. I don't put any stock in coefficients simply because there are dogs that the lines would be done far sooner than this one. You simply can't hang a specific number out there and say this is what the magic number should be. In the second column, ever dog except Odin is a littermate. So, where is the line drawn? I have done several mother/son crosses that are not on this pedigree. The question is, at what point over numerous generation does it become inbreeding? Or do we just look at each individual cross as separate regardless of the compounded effect?


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## Daryl Ehret

I'm reading Electra's COI as 50% and Wyatt's at 43.876%. Their offspring COI as 46.875%. The only variance through being through Molly Dolly (providing 6.25% contribution), all else passing through Bailey, Winchester, and Annie-O.

I think you're right about the not putting too much stock in the COI numbers, because they assume that Bailey, Winchester, and Annie-O are for the most part _heterogenous in genotype_. Where, if their pedigrees follow similar patterns to the one presented here, it would be more likely they possess higher homogenous levels in genotype, and there fore _more prepotent,_ causing much higher "true" COI in the pedigree of this dog. 

Inbreeding or linebreeding, either is subjective opinion in my view, neither answer more "correct" than the other. Sometimes linebreeding infers that particular producers are in some way bracketed or stagnated through generations in pedigree position, by backcrossing to former generations.


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## Don Turnipseed

Interesting Daryl,. The COI figures I posted were figured by others because I wouldn't have a clue as to how to figure it anyway. I would trust your figures before theirs foe sure. Another thing did cross my mind in reference to linebreeding. That would be that a line is continually bred back to other stock of similar phenotype...not all on top of the same line.Any thoughts?


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## Daryl Ehret

I'm interpreting that statement many different ways... can you say it another way?

The COI isn't supposed to represent anything but probablility of homogenous genotype (at least to my understanding). So, a "like-pair" of detrimental alleles being the focus for avoidance. The "allelic richness" of a population, being seen as a desireability for the proponents of "diversity". If there are more than two allele types for a given gene locus, _that also screws with the COI mumbers._

Most homologous pairings of alleles are not really detrimental to the health condition of an individual organism, some are in fact "better", but most of no real consequence at all. Many gene locations only transcribe for a couple allele types available to the given breed, some have more allele types, and others only a single possible type.

But, during the "transcription" process when dna is being replicated, errors inevitably occur, and result in recessive mutations that won't reveal themselves phenotypically until they appear in a following generation, where they have become homogenously paired.

So then it becomes easier to see, that linebreeding doesn't "cause" problems, as much as it "surfaces" them, and more efficiently than without, because the sooner, the better for the long haul. Mutations (which are most frequently detrimental than ever beneficial) are going to occur naturally in populations, regardless if inbreeding or outcrossing.


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## Don Turnipseed

We are in agreement on most everything discussed Daryl. The question I was asking was having to do with how different people interpret what they see on a pedigree. Normally, and if possible, the ideal thing would be to be "linebreeding" my line, with another unrelated but tightly bred line of similar qualities. Different qualities if they have something to offer that I may need or desire to put in to my line. That is linebreeding at it best. When there is no other tight linbred dogs within the breed, as is most common these days, one may randomly pick somewhat proven dogs to incorporate into the line to build upon. This is where it gets real dicey because no one can tell you what is really in those random bred dogs. Every time you bring in new blood you run the risk of destroying what has taken years to build. Because of the risk, my dogs are bred on top of each other with a couple of outcrosses from a number of years ago still showing. Personally, because of the general lack of new blood being brought in, I would say this pedigree leans more to being inbred, but two people that spoke up consider it linebred. Let's face it, it is what it is, I am just curious, where or why the distinction between linebred and inbred is when viewed by different people.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

If you go the other way, is it really linebreeding when it is 3, 3 on bob ??


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## Don Turnipseed

You lost me Jeff. What is 3,3 on bob?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The dogs name is bob, and he is in the third generation on both sides of the pedigree.

The pedigree you posted, is a little confusing, but with your explanation of who's who, that is more linebreeding than when people say that their dog is linebred on bob 3, 3


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## Daryl Ehret

I think the general consensus is, and some would disagree; that a 2-3 or weaker is a linebreeding, and a 2-2 or tighter is inbreeding. A 2-2 is very rarely, but occasionally approved by the German registry. For myself, I mostly just refrain from the term _inbreeding_ and summarize all of it as _linebreeding_.

I think what Jeff's talking about, is that rather than focusing on a single linebred producer _with a wide remaining variance, _your pedigree in contrast emphasizes on three, _which compose most of the entire pedigree _(all but the Molly Dolly slice) and leaves less unknown variables with which to contend.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, exactly. I would prefer to see a dog that the breeder thought was the best that he had seen to be repeated in the pedigree a lot more than 3, 3.

Sometimes it is the best you can do for whatever reason, but If you like the dog enough then why only 3, 3 or 3, 2 ?? I see that a lot. I understand that it is difficult with all their rules, but we do not have those rules here.

When you continually see dogs that are producing well and they are not jammed into a pedigree, I always wonder why so few times ?? What were they producing that if too close was showing up.

That kind of info is valuable.

Now to get Don into Mals and GSD's. : )


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## Don Turnipseed

I guess I am going to have to figure out that German system of 3,3 and 3,2. Is it aplicable to this pedigree?....and where is bob?


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## Daryl Ehret

Jeff's notations were a bit off, by a "3,3" he was actually referring to a "3-3". A 3-3 linebreeding on (theoretical named) Bob, would mean that Bob appears two times in the pedigree, once on the sire side and once on the dam side, both appearances in the third generation. The pedigree you posted, displays a 3-3,3 on Hunter and 3-3,3 on Madisson. The "dash symbol" separates what is to be found on the sire side, followed by the dam side. The "coma symbol" indicates there are two appearances of said producer on the dam side in the third generation. The same pedigree is a 3,4-4,4 on Bailey and a 4,4,4-4,4,4,4 on Winchester.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yeah, I am an idiot.

I don't see the point of "line" breeding without a "line". Don's dogs pedigree is a LINE and the dogs are LINE bred.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes, exactly. I would prefer to see a dog that the breeder thought was the best that he had seen to be repeated in the pedigree a lot more than 3, 3.
> 
> Sometimes it is the best you can do for whatever reason, but If you like the dog enough then why only 3, 3 or 3, 2 ?? I see that a lot. I understand that it is difficult with all their rules, but we do not have those rules here.
> 
> When you continually see dogs that are producing well and they are not jammed into a pedigree, I always wonder why so few times ?? What were they producing that if too close was showing up.
> 
> That kind of info is valuable.
> 
> Now to get Don into Mals and GSD's. : )



Jeff, this pedigree came about with one consideration. Almost every time I did a cross it was done with the sole intent on how many times is Winchester going to be in the mix. He simply had no fear of anything.Got his butt kicked almost every hunt because of it. Hogs almost killed him. Bears almost killed him but, he never let go of their face. He taught me more about patchin a dog up than any dog I have owned.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is astounding to me that the people that need just a couple of things out of a dog, like hunters ACTUALLY know how to breed, where we dumbass sport people require a dog with many skills, and we simply cannot recreate the good ones on a regular basis.

The other day there was a thread on Judex. If they bred Judex the way that you breed Winchester, then what a different world we would live in.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is astounding to me that the people that need just a couple of things out of a dog, like hunters ACTUALLY know how to breed, where we dumbass sport people require a dog with many skills, and we simply cannot recreate the good ones on a regular basis.
> 
> The other day there was a thread on Judex. If they bred Judex the way that you breed Winchester, then what a different world we would live in.


It has a lot of luck to go with it Jeff, but, most people stack the deck against themselves. They save the weak dogs and rationalize they can be trained. They start with less than prime candiates simply because that is what they have. Mindsets have changed to the point the dogs are going downhill.


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## Don Turnipseed

Daryl Ehret said:


> Jeff's notations were a bit off, by a "3,3" he was actually referring to a "3-3". A 3-3 linebreeding on (theoretical named) Bob, would mean that Bob appears two times in the pedigree, once on the sire side and once on the dam side, both appearances in the third generation. The pedigree you posted, displays a 3-3,3 on Hunter and 3-3,3 on Madisson. The "dash symbol" separates what is to be found on the sire side, followed by the dam side. The "coma symbol" indicates there are two appearances of said producer on the dam side in the third generation. The same pedigree is a 3,4-4,4 on Bailey and a 4,4,4-4,4,4,4 on Winchester.


OK Daryl, now I understand what you are saying. Thank you


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## Don Turnipseed

Jason Hammel said:


> can I ask a noob question? Now in line breeding tho done for generations isn't that where you sometimes breed in relatives. Why is this ok? Isn't that the sort of thing that brings about serious genetic defects?
> 
> Wouldn't outcrossing or consistently bringing in new (of course healthy) blood be more desireable so that you lines remain free of genetic defect. Of course that requires alot of work to insure your not inbreeding.
> 
> I am just now starting to study animal husbandry so be gentle with my question lololol


I hope you are seeing the real picture now Jason. We have just scratched the surface....and I even learned what all those #"s mean on those German pedigrees.


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## Bob Scott

I can only add that it's been some time since I've had a 3,3.....or even a 4-5....but 1,1 is still doing great! 

Bob O:-$=;


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## Daryl Ehret

With this diagram, you're able to calculate what percent of genetic contribution each producer is responsible for, either from their phenotype _or a potentially hidden recessive. _So, if you total all the positions of Winchester's appearances, you can see that he is responsible for 43.75% of the pedigree's genetic composition. That's stonger influence than a pretty close 2-3 linebreeding, which represents 37.5%. And especially so, in the case where selections were based on a commonality in phenotype.


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## Don Turnipseed

It's called an anomaly Bob. Finding a great one and recognizing it is only the first baby step. Reproducing the great ones consistently another whole kettle of fish. Jeff attributed it to hunters knowing how to breed. That may be part of it because they still do it the ol fashion way. They don't get to tied up with all this new fangled training and prey building. A good part of why they have dogs that hunt is the don't muck up the breed with POS dogs. If that dog don't hunt....he don't come home. That keeps a better selection of dogs in the gene pool. When it comes to working dogs, I am a firm believer of this......if ya want a pet first, get a pug. That is what they were bred for. Don't muck up the working dogs. Can't even blame it on the show breeders any more. ](*,) 
Is that enough Connie?


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## Don Turnipseed

Winchester is on the left, Hunter on the right. Winchester is getting up there in age in this picture but he was all attitude and this is why the electric fences were moved out to 2' on both sides of the fences.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is astounding to me that the people that need just a couple of things out of a dog, like hunters ACTUALLY know how to breed, where we dumbass sport people require a dog with many skills, and we simply cannot recreate the good ones on a regular basis.


Actually this may be part of the problem. Nothing against hunters or other "single use" breeders, but hunters breed what hunts. Herders breed what herds. Not much else matters as long as the dog can do the job. Sport people want a dog with a certain type of grip, a certain type of biddability, a certain size, certain structure, a certain temperament, a certain look, etc etc etc. It's not just enough that the dog works.


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## Don Turnipseed

I don't know my right from my left. Winchester is the dog on the right, Hunter is on the left.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Actually this may be part of the problem. Nothing against hunters or other "single use" breeders, but hunters breed what hunts. Herders breed what herds. Not much else matters as long as the dog can do the job. Sport people want a dog with a certain type of grip, a certain type of biddability, a certain size, certain structure, a certain temperament, a certain look, etc etc etc. It's not just enough that the dog works.

Or, if you consider who is breeding what, sport dog people are much more likely to keep shit dogs. Hunters never have.

The toughest thing about breeding is finding a dog that you like a lot, and a female that you like a lot. I don't see anyone in sport dogs breeding like Don is breeding.

I don't know why. Since he doesn't seem to have a shortage of dogs that will do the work, then what is the hold up ??

When I see someone in dogsports get away from the bullshit, and start actually trying something other than what they are doing, maybe I start getting excited about a US breeder.

I haven't studied Dick and Selena's pedigrees all that much, but when I did look, it was a LOT more like what Don is doing, and less like the US breeders.

They seem to be producing dogs that are working real well and not the average.


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## Don Turnipseed

"Single use breeders"? Kadi, these dogs, admittedly were bred to handle dangerous game, but they have done everything outside of conformation and agility....and they could do well at agility.....so that dog don't hunt.While I agree that there is a reason for the lack of good sport dogs, I don't think the reason is you are asking to much of them. If that was the case, there wouldn't be any that could do it.....but some can.....sooo. Look at it this way. The average dog being the median as always. There should be lots of good solid dogs, and a few world beaters. On the other side there should be a lot of marginal dogs below the average and a few egg suckers. The average dogs should be able to get by as sport dogs...nothing flashy but should do the bites. How many world beaters are out there?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

There is another scale that isn't talked about. Import "A" cost 5-7000 dollars and will be bred as much as possible and as quickly as possible to make that money back.

5 years later, the dog is history, having only produced median dogs.

Here is the real question, how do we beat that cycle, especially since we are pretty much scatterbreeding with a 4-4 or a 4-5.


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## Timothy Stacy

Don, how many dogs are cut out for the work on one of your litters? I'm guessing they are pretty uniform since they are line bred tightly. Probably a hard question since you don't keep them all.


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## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is another scale that isn't talked about. Import "A" cost 5-7000 dollars and will be bred as much as possible and as quickly as possible to make that money back.
> 
> 5 years later, the dog is history, having only produced median dogs.
> 
> Here is the real question, how do we beat that cycle, especially since we are pretty much scatterbreeding with a 4-4 or a 4-5.


These are just my ideas: You can actually line-breed and cull...you can do 1/2 brother sister for example and uncle niece..

When I started with Beaucerons, I used 3 different 1/2 brothers as stud dogs. Beaucerons are much more difficult to try to improve as the breeders have had many years to destroy them. Right now the most popular working Beauceron to use at stud is a dog from my kennel, Avatar des Ombres Valeureux, FRIII. His semen is stored at Maison al Forte (Paris). 
His pedigree: http://www.aboutbeaucerons.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=24136&gens=4&db=beauceron.dbw

If I don't LOVE the female don't breed her as no famous, or hard or perfect male is going to fix her problems...they will surface again later. IMO, you must think highly of your maternal line and if the females are just so-so in the line, stop and start over. If you don't love what your wonderful female is producing after a couple breedings, stop breeding her as well. Also, if you haven't created a consistent producing working line yet through line-breeding, why would you sell female puppies for breeding? If you are still working on the bloodlines and refining them, why put females out there to people that are less experienced than you (i.e. others don't know the line of the breeder better than the breeder) ??

Yes, it's expensive and it's hard to cull. But, I think culling is the answer and be very, very picky. You must keep females and raise them up and know what you have and then evaluate. Don't keep them just because you've raised them up and now they are breeding age. Be prepared to cull at all life-stages...however, you cull, but don't put them in the gene pool. Place as pets, or whatever.. Also, don't breed to titles as they don't pass through the placenta. The dogs must be good in life and on the field. 

Also, in Malinois you must try hard to know the true pedigree of the dog or if you only know for sure the truth of 1/2 it better be the 1/2 you want to line-breed on. There's also the luck factor of hitting the good combination and recognizing when you do. If all the males are great and the females (large % are great too), then absolutely keep something for breeding.

I like the idea of small breeder with their own vision of what a malinois should be line-breeding and not breeding to what's in fashion. 

For example, I decided to use Master when he was just being purchased after watching his Czech vids and researching his pedigree and character as I felt this type of dog would fit nicely with my one female line. I wanted to add speed, fire, a certain reactiveness back in. I had the size and bite and drive, but I wanted to breed in the type of dog Master is and plus he had a relationship to this female. I didn't decide because he won this or that as he hadn't won anything to speak of when he was first imported as far as I could see (the entire web site was in Czech). I could see he had a IPO III or the like. I will not breed to a dog because of titles. The first time I bred Saida it was to my Dexter (linebred on maternal side to Kim du Boscaille and on top going back through Dusty to Atos and Cartouche). Dexter had no titles then. The 2nd time I used Dexter's son Bexter and again he was a young dog w/o titles.

If we all as breeders line-breed on what we personally like then there will be out-crossed dogs of other breeders to go to to improve on certain traits. If everyone just breeds to the fashionable dog, then we will have improved nothing and lost the lines.

If you look at Dick II pedigree, it shows line-breeding: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/36412/Dick-II-(De-Mits) then later you see his descendant Kim du Boscaille being line-bred on too for those that wanted to put bite and character into the line. 

Some of the more modern breeders started "hiding" what they were doing so it's more difficult to see. Also, peds are hidden out of necessity too because of the rift between the NVBK and FCI registries. You can see how Luc used G'Vitou and G'Bibber, two 1/2 brothers of Cartouche in his breeding. G'Vitou going back to the bulldozer/Dick II and then how if you cross in Kim du Boscaille you would be emphasizing on this type of dog. Also, how Scaramouche is a cross between Cartouche and Dick II. I've followed this type of breeding as I'm interested in it. 

Others would study other lines that they are interested in and try to learn what works.

This is just my ideas and everyone has their own. I'd love to hear others ideas on breeding. I'm always trying to learn more.


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## kristin tresidder

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here is the real question, how do we beat that cycle, especially since we are pretty much scatterbreeding with a 4-4 or a 4-5.


it really does surprise me that there isn't tighter breeding - esp in the GSDs. when i started looking at their pedigrees, i found very few tightly bred dogs anywhere. 

line breeding can be a daunting task, because then the pedigree becomes of more importance and you can't just use any old sire/bitch that you happen to like. people, esp in america, seem to like to outcross almost constantly because of the potential for A) instant gratification and B ) those easy, high dollar puppy sales from a famous daddy. line breeding is a long term plan, which also seems to be more than most people can comprehend - esp if you're not starting with an existing line, or pool of tightly bred dogs. to get that higher potential for prepotency for certain traits, you have to plan a breeding with more than the next generation in mind - and then if the dogs don't work out, despite all your planning, then you have to try something simiilar again to get that desired F1 before you can move forward towards that tight, strong pedigree that consistently produces what you're looking for. most people don't have the patience to build up to a "brackett's formula" breeding on their favorite dog, let alone build a line. another problem is that many people just can't keep enough dogs to work towards a line anymore.

at the end of the day, someone just has to DO it - that's how you break the cycle of scatterbreeding. IMO of course.


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## Konnie Hein

Debbie Skinner said:


> Some of the more modern breeders started "hiding" what they were doing so it's more difficult to see.


Why?


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## Don Turnipseed

Tim, they will all hunt, but, hunt is natural as long as it is bred for. The thing is, they don't all hunt the same, they don't handle the same.
When it comes to other venues that are not natural and require training, I pick the most confident at four weeks roughly. Those are the ones capable of competition. The ones right behind them which is the majority average, are the good solid dogs. Sometimes the difference is so small it has to be pointed out to people why the one is a competition level dog. No matter how good the overall average is, there will always be the creme of the crop. Likewise, there will be and equal number of pets. The overall quality of what is the average is what you keep your eye on. Forget both extremes. If the average quality is up there, you will have some that are great.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Don Turnipseed said:


> "Single use breeders"? Kadi, these dogs, admittedly were bred to handle dangerous game, but they have done everything outside of conformation and agility....and they could do well at agility.....so that dog don't hunt.


But when you are breeding, do you breed with conformation, agility, etc in mind or are you breedin gfor hunting dogs, and if they can do other things that's just icing on the cake? The serious herding breeders I know breed for herding. That's it, that is their criteria. If the dog is sketchy around strange people, who cares as long as it herds. If the dog is mismarked, wrong color, out of standard, etc who cares as long as it herds. If the dog has a food or flea allergy, many don't care as long as it works. If the dog is lacking in food drive, ball drive, etc who cares as long as it herds. If the dog can't settle in the house, is destructive, etc who cares as long as it herds. If the dog is a mediocre herder but excells in agility, who cares, that one is out of the breeding program. The hunting breeders I've known had the same attitude about their hounds. I think they were even more hard core then the herding people I know, or maybe it's that I knew the hound people when I was a kid and the herding people now (PC influence). With the hunters though if the dog didn't hunt it just didn't come home. The herding people seem more inclined to find the dog a new home. 

When breeding sport dogs, it's not enough that they bite, and bite well. Then the buyer wants to know about the ball drive, food drive, hunt drive, size, color, on/off switch, temperament with people, etc. You can have a highly successful sport dog, out there winning competitions, and it may not be used for breeding because it doesn't "play well" or lacks food drive. Or it has to much white on it. Or it's the wrong color (fawn instead of red, red instead of fawn, whatever).



> While I agree that there is a reason for the lack of good sport dogs


I actually don't think there is a lack of good sport dogs. I see good dogs at almost every club I go to, be it FR, MR, PSA, Schutzhund, etc. And on occasion I see excellent dogs. 



> The average dog being the median as always. There should be lots of good solid dogs, and a few world beaters. On the other side there should be a lot of marginal dogs below the average and a few egg suckers. The average dogs should be able to get by as sport dogs...nothing flashy but should do the bites.


I think this is how it is. 



> How many world beaters are out there?


Enough that when someone wants to go to that level of competition there are others they are competing against for those top spots. 

But that brings up another point, how many of those world beaters are the dogs that are going to produce the next generation of world beaters? You talk about your hunting dogs and how your program is based on getting one male into the pedigree as many times as possible because of how extreme he was in the hunt. In hunting terms he sounds like he'd be a "world beater". In sport dog terms he'd probably be a very impressive dog who rarely if ever wins anything big because he's "to much" for that consistent control and points needed to win. He'd be the dog I'd want to put into my pedigrees, but he wouldn't be the dog I'd expect to see on the podium, instead I'd expect to see some of his offspring there.


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## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> Why?



Sometimes because they are using dogs w/o FCI peds and sometimes just because they don't want other breeders to know what they are doing <sigh> This makes it very difficult. The NVBK papers vs FCI is a legit problem and politics. But, I guess my best answer for the other is "egos" ](*,)


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## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> Why?


I left out the KNPV dogs where you see 90% non-reg great dogs that are used for breeding as well.


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## Kadi Thingvall

kristin tresidder said:


> it really does surprise me that there isn't tighter breeding - esp in the GSDs. when i started looking at their pedigrees, i found very few tightly bred dogs anywhere.


I believe in GSD the SV has limits on how tight of breeding can be done. Hopefully a GSD person will jump in here if I'm wrong, but that is what I have been told.


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## Don Turnipseed

Kadi
"But that brings up another point, how many of those world beaters are the dogs that are going to produce the next generation of world beaters? You talk about your hunting dogs and how your program is based on getting one male into the pedigree as many times as possible because of how extreme he was in the hunt. In hunting terms he sounds like he'd be a "world beater". In sport dog terms he'd probably be a very impressive dog who rarely if ever wins anything big because he's "to much" for that consistent control and points needed to win. He'd be the dog I'd want to put into my pedigrees, but he wouldn't be the dog I'd expect to see on the podium, instead I'd expect to see some of his offspring there."

Your right Kadi, Wichester was fealess and that made him less than ideal for dangerous game. He was always layed up and on the mend. He also got other dogs hurt that tried to do what he could do. Being over the top is why he was a great candidate for linebreeding and hopefully his offspring would have less of an edge to them. In that pedigree you see Titan one time I believe. He is just like Winchester. I should probably hold back more of his progeny


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## Debbie Skinner

I find it invaluable to just observe the puppies/dogs when they are not in drive. I take the dogs and pups on hikes and horseback rides through brush, up and down hills, through water, over boulders, etc. It's good to note what dogs are brave and adventuresome and choose to go through and over obstacles and which follow as to not be left behind. Many dogs in drive will go through obstacles or when called and/or following their owner or a tug or toy. However, the same dog may avoid obstacles when given a choice.

Also, I don't like "dirty" dogs, the ones that will purposely poop and pee where their water and food is. We have large kennels and pens and clean 2x/day. If a dog or puppy routinely relieves itself where it lives and eats, then for me it has a mental illness. My horses don't do that either when given a choice. This is just a "pet peeve" of mine so to speak.


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## Kyle Sprag

Debbie Skinner said:


> I find it invaluable to just observe the puppies/dogs when they are not in drive. I take the dogs and pups on hikes and horseback rides through brush, up and down hills, through water, over boulders, etc. It's good to note what dogs are brave and adventuresome and choose to go through and over obstacles and which follow as to not be left behind. Many dogs in drive will go through obstacles or when called and/or following their owner or a tug or toy. However, the same dog may avoid obstacles when given a choice.
> 
> Also, I don't like "dirty" dogs, the ones that will purposely poop and pee where their water and food is. We have large kennels and pens and clean 2x/day. If a dog or puppy routinely relieves itself where it lives and eats, then for me it has a mental illness. My horses don't do that either when given a choice. This is just a "pet peeve" of mine so to speak.


 
I think these are some very good points.


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## Debbie Skinner

Kyle Sprag said:


> I think these are some very good points.



Thanks Kyle. BTW, I really like the paper on your dog. I was trying to research the maternal line of Linda and ended up in a dead end, but was just researching on the internet including the working-dog-eu.com. Linda: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/14705/Linda-du-Lac-des-Lotus

I know Linda's daughter "Prena" (your Pedro's sister) was bred with Lobo (sire of my Dexter) that resulted in some pups.

Do you know anything about Linda's breeder and/or her progeny? I'm interested in Erk->Grobber line.


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## Kyle Sprag

Dominique Piton confirmed:

That Linda's breeder IS: Miguel Rodriguez 6, Rue Albert Schweitzer
51000 Chalons En Champagne

This is also on his SCC Passport card

His French Scorebook has Him out of F'ken and Linda and is signed by Miguel

I PMed you with other Info I have.


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## Debbie Skinner

Thanks as I am interested in that particular maternal line of malinois.


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