# This is the quality of "working people" here in Oz



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I have to admit, Australia has the dumbest dog people anywhere in the world I think. I am ashamed to say it also.
This is the sort of stuff we have to deal with. We are still unable to get passed the whole pedigree thing here. We have a group of people who see the unregistered KNPV dogs (Malis and Dutchies and Black Malis) as such threat to their little world that we are having the debate here that "Only FCI pedigreed dogs are allowed to be called Malinois or Dutchies and the KNPV or NVBK dogs without FCI pedigrees can only be refered to as "MONGRELS". "
So so the KNPV people like Dick or Gerben who refer to their dogs as Malinois or Dutchies are con men who are trying to peddle their dogs as working dogs because they have no pedigrees.
Heres just a taste of moronville for you.
From an Aussie forum.

"As most people are aware, by now anyway, there are two types of Dutch Shepherds. There are the FCI Pedigreed ones, and there are the unregistered KNPV ones. 

I find this disturbing since i have been to Holland and there is NO such breed as KNPV Malinois or Dutch shepherd.

KNPV is a sport that allows cross bread dogs to compete in it but it does not relate to any breed in particular and there is no breed called KNPV whatever.

Further more anything cross bread is just that a cross or like they call it in Europe A MONGREL.

when you test the character of these dogs you have no idea where the drive or the lack of comes from which mongrel contributed to what.

To add insult to injury i have heard recently that some of the mongrel bread lines displayed hip displeasure which has not been known to the breed before.

So don't forget that by getting a cross bread dog you are getting all the attributes good and in some cases BAD such as hereditary health problems of the who knows what.

Hope this clarifies some things for some people

Adam VIPSS"

And the spelling has not been altered.
Oh and the whole HD claim is made up. One Mali that was going to the Airforce was xrayed and came back as a 16 score in the AVA system, which would be OFA fair in USA talk.
Pray for us people.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

"Hip displeasure and mongrel bread"....praying for you now Christopher  Good grief!!

On a serious note..what do the people with pedigreed dogs care, really,in the big picture?

Reminds me of a magazine I worked for once, called Tattoo. They had a saying "the people that are tattooed, don't care if you're tattooed or not!" :smile:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

They have mongrel bread lines in Oz? Do they hand them welfare cheese too? Poor dogs.

Hip displeasure, sounds like my moody broody teenager. It's cool to be displeased with EVERYTHING! 

Thanks for the laugh.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Hahahahahahaha, this "criminal-conman" had a good laugh about it......

By the way, ignorance also rules in the FCI-ped. world over here.... They also feel threatened by the KNPV-Dutchie..
So this bull sounds familiar.... 

Dick


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> "Hip displeasure and mongrel bread"....praying for you now Christopher  Good grief!!
> 
> On a serious note..what do the people with pedigreed dogs care, really,in the big picture?
> 
> Reminds me of a magazine I worked for once, called Tattoo. They had a saying "the people that are tattooed, don't care if you're tattooed or not!" :smile:


Thanks for your prayers. I think we are gonna need both Catholic and Church of England prayers on this one. Hell, we are gonna need some Freemason rituals as well if its possible.

On the serious note, its been done because the unpedigreed dogs such as KNPV and NVBK dogs are a better quality working animal than the current FCI pedigreed dogs we have here. So the easiest thing to do is to discredit them as being mongrels. 
One of my favourite quotes from these guys was "you might as well go down to the local dog pound and get a mongrel from there as they are as much malinois or dutchie as the KNPV dogs are".
Of course the spelling was alot worse


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

All I saw there is the yackity yack that has been going around the dog world as long as I can remember. Everyone is a dog expert, they all have had dogs before.

Like wallstreet, the worth of a dog is based on bullshit. If it were not, then workingdogs would be 3500 a pup.

If a dog is not registered, then it is a danger to the registry. A registry serves no purpose anymore, if it ever did. So of course there is going to be as much propaganda as possible to keep things registered, and explain that the unregistered for GENERATIONS (not a good precedent) are all mongrels and genetic time bombs.

Here in the states I was told as long as I can remember that chicken bones are bad for the dogs, and can kill them.

I have seen dogs eat KFC shit off the ground, I have fed them chicken bones as in the leg quarters. I flinch every single time I give it to them. If you get that shit in a kids head early enough, it sticks. Trust me, it sticks.

To me it is obvious that the unregistered dogs disturb the balance and bullshit that a dog is worth something just because the Registery papers say so.


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## Pamella Renaldi (Mar 6, 2010)

Does Australia not accept unofficial FCI dogs, like American Pitbulls to schutzhund trials? In my country they can't. Mongrels aren't allowed to join also.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Hahahahahahaha, this "criminal-conman" had a good laugh about it......
> 
> By the way, ignorance also rules in the FCI-ped. world over here.... They also feel threatened by the KNPV-Dutchie..
> So this bull sounds familiar....
> ...


And what gets me, more so with the Dutchies, is that the FCI people are happy to sell their pedigreed dogs off as working dogs on the reputation of the KNPV ones. Lets not worry about the fact that 99% of all the Dutch Shepherds in the KNPV, Police and on youtube even, are mongrel KNPV dogs......:roll:


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Pamella Renaldi said:


> Does Australia not accept unofficial FCI dogs, like American Pitbulls to schutzhund trials? In my country they can't. Mongrels aren't allowed to join also.


No here in IPO its a little different. Unpedigreed dogs can do IPO, but cannot go to the nationals. However only certain breeds like Shepherds, Rotts etc can do IPO. No pits or stuff like that.
And the funny shit is that it is the kennel club in Australia that is working its tits off to get SchH/IPO banned, and yet the so-called working people beg to be able to register their dogs with them. Go figure....


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

That strikes me as strange because what I hear about Australia and New Zealand is mainly about crossbreeding dogs for hunting and to some extent protection work. My impression was that you guys were more utilitarian. Obviously that doesn't extend to everybody, even in my Fantasy Island version of you guys, but to hear some talk there is much more emphasis on just focusing on what does the job at hand. Maybe that's just with the hog-and-farm hunting/catch type dogs, or outside of the herders, where that's the case? Or maybe to some extent it's just a few breeders doing so a/o largely Internet talk.

I realize there's a difference between hog hunters and IPO/SchH people and their goals and mentality, but for some reason I was under the impression as a whole the Aussies were more utilitarian as a whole, and less hung-up on pedigrees so much as the functionality of the dogs. Obviously, you can't classify a whole country or region with one set of values or opinions. However, what you're describing sounds like the polar opposite. I shouldn't be so surprised. You can find extremes over here in the U.S. as well, so why not everywhere else?

-Cheers


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> That strikes me as strange because what I hear about Australia and New Zealand is mainly about crossbreeding dogs for hunting and to some extent protection work. My impression was that you guys were more utilitarian. Obviously that doesn't extend to everybody, even in my Fantasy Island version of you guys, but to hear some talk there is much more emphasis on just focusing on what does the job at hand. Maybe that's just with the hog-and-farm hunting/catch type dogs, or outside of the herders, where that's the case? Or maybe to some extent it's just a few breeders doing so a/o largely Internet talk.
> 
> I realize there's a difference between hog hunters and IPO/SchH people and their goals and mentality, but for some reason I was under the impression as a whole the Aussies were more utilitarian as a whole, and less hung-up on pedigrees so much as the functionality of the dogs. What you're describing sounds like the polar opposite.
> 
> -Cheers


Yeah the hunting dog and cattle dog people are all about the dog. However the dogsport people are more pedigree/kennel club focused. And I think also that the people working to put down the unpedigreed dogs are doing so as they have a financial interest in the pedigreed dogs. Its just an extention of the show GSD people claiming that working dog people are saying their dogs are better at working because they are just trying to offload their ugly GSD's.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> That strikes me as strange because what I hear about Australia and New Zealand is mainly about crossbreeding dogs for hunting and to some extent protection work. My impression was that you guys were more utilitarian. Obviously that doesn't extend to everybody, even in my Fantasy Island version of you guys, but to hear some talk there is much more emphasis on just focusing on what does the job at hand. Maybe that's just with the hog-and-farm hunting/catch type dogs, or outside of the herders, where that's the case? Or maybe to some extent it's just a few breeders doing so a/o largely Internet talk.
> 
> I realize there's a difference between hog hunters and IPO/SchH people and their goals and mentality, but for some reason I was under the impression as a whole the Aussies were more utilitarian as a whole, and less hung-up on pedigrees so much as the functionality of the dogs. Obviously, you can't classify a whole country or region with one set of values or opinions. However, what you're describing sounds like the polar opposite. I shouldn't be so surprised. You can find extremes over here in the U.S. as well, so why not everywhere else?
> 
> -Cheers


Idiocy went global a long time ago. Australia may have held out longer, due to it's relative geographical isolation, but it got there in the end.


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## Pamella Renaldi (Mar 6, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> No here in IPO its a little different. Unpedigreed dogs can do IPO, but cannot go to the nationals. However only certain breeds like Shepherds, Rotts etc can do IPO. No pits or stuff like that.
> And the funny shit is that it is the kennel club in Australia that is working its tits off to get SchH/IPO banned, and yet the so-called working people beg to be able to register their dogs with them. Go figure....


Thanks. Hopefully Australia doesn't banned IPO/schh so there will be more variety of working dogs around the world. In my country people are more interested with conformation shows.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Just one other note...they use the term "mongrel" intentionally as a derogatory word, meant to stick in people's minds, valued as something less ](*,)I would try my damnest to dispell that word everytime it comes up in conversation, emails and forums. Say "working dog", as in dogs bred (bread) to work!
If you don't they will win over public perception.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Its the same over her.
I must say that the Kennel klubb over her are masters of fooling peopel.
Everyting without a FCI ped is a mongrell/mixt breed. You cant do protection sports with thos dogs.

If you have a rotty breed it to another rotty and you do not registrat it it will be a Mix and the insurens and everyone will cal it a mix. THe dogs after thos dogs to and so on.

They are so good at what they do so they have duped peopel to run around and tell on etshatrer. Becaus if you are a breeder that have a FCI breed you can not breed anything ellse.

If I wuld like to start to breed malis AND bulldogs I cant. I wuld not be able to registrate my malis becaus I breed a non FCI breed  
And I garante you If I tryed to have both breeds som yahoo wuld tell on me and I wuld get kickt out of the kennel klubb.

Its realy crazy over her.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I can call my dog anything I want, but when she competes, she will be listed as a 'mix'. So what? My fellow club member will be trialing with a mix as well, because he doesn't have papers for his dog either. At least we're allowed to compete. I also won't be eligible to compete at the world's with her on our national team because she's not a GSD. Again, so what? If that had been my goal, I wouldn't have bought a knpv Dutch shepherd.

And yes, a friend suggested that I bought the very expensive working dog equivalent of a labradoodle. (mal x ds) Made me laugh, because it's true. I do call her a mutt, with affection, but I agree 'mongrel' is a pretty harsh term.

Stupidity is everywhere. Don't let them get to you.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

The thing is that a breed is not just a FCI papper.
They will cal a ADBA pitbull mix. a ABA Bulldog a mix and so on.

A BREED is a type of dog that are breed for a task "ore dual " and breed true. That is the problem, the FCI nuts can only se that a dog with a FCI papper is a breed ore Pure 

If you have a KNPV Ds and ther are mali ore GSD 5 gens back that dog will breed pure. It is a DS when you look at it, When you work it and when you breed it. Than it is a DS not a mixt breed. Its as simple as that.

**** thos pappers


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

**** them Chris, its like most the morons here in the USA with the fact they wouldn't know a good dog if it hit them across the back of there little fringing minds. Me personally here in the great state of South Carolina since living here have gone through the same bullshit. I just ignore them and there pretty little slope backs that they think walk on water LOL.:-$


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

If they think the people cross the big pond are crooks which there not, they should take a good hard look in the mirror for all the piece of shits they produce and rape people on in pricing. The day I pay a USA man 3500 for a dog in this country as a pup is the day I kill myself LOL.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Pamella Renaldi said:


> Thanks. Hopefully Australia doesn't banned IPO/schh


I thought they pretty much already had. A friend of mine who lives in Australia told me that it was illegal to train your dog to show aggression towards or bite a man, and therefore illegal to train your dog in Schutzhund


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> And yes, a friend suggested that I bought the very expensive working dog equivalent of a labradoodle. (mal x ds)


Which is ironic, since the Australians were the ones who came up with the idea of the labradoodle as a working cross in the first place and now it's just the gullible Americans that are eating that up.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The other thing that is really funny is that the pedigree breeders are just so unaware of the false pedigree situation with Malis and Dutchies here. There was a topic that went on for over 8 pages arguing over the fact that the DS has open stud books in Europe. They would not accept that their god like FCI would ever, ever give mongrels pedigrees. Talk about avoidence.
The last people on this planet who should ever slag off the KNPV and NVBK dogs are people with FCI Malis and Dutchies, because without the addition of these mongrel dogs into their bloodlines their dogs would be a quarter what they are today.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Chris, that is what they want. They want dogs that look like the dogs that work, but just lay around the house. They want to be able to charge more money for certain color combinations, certain "looks" but sure as **** don't want to deal with drive. 

Because so many get into positions of power within the registry, this kind of shit is inevitable. Working dog folks have no representation, or just the illusion of it.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

A new post from a dumbass.

"Maybe I know f--- all about working dogs according to you.

But at least my dogs are pure bread and yours are bitsas.

And as to the X ray.
No problem I can do that. 

But you cant turn your bitsas in to a pure breed no mater how many times you x ray.

Is my English good enough for you to understand that?

As to the hip problems. While i was in Holland they mainly x-ray for elbows in Malinois.

But i do believe that the problems came from training and over training young dogs on jumps. while the bones and joints where still to young to cope with that stress.
And specialy the 1.8 meter wall. Because as soon as they put up a ramp so that the dog has to clime the wall up but then walks down a ramp.

The problems with elbows are not as common now."

:???:


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I thought they pretty much already had. A friend of mine who lives in Australia told me that it was illegal to train your dog to show aggression towards or bite a man, and therefore illegal to train your dog in Schutzhund


depends on the breed. I have staffs and I am not allowed to do SchH or any other 'biting' sport with my dogs. This is not the same for other breeds.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> But at least my dogs are pure bread and yours are bitsas.


When you forget the whole reason for having purebred dogs in the first place, its not difficult to come up with that logic. They just forgot WHY their dogs became purebred in the first place...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I happen to be your average American mongrel. 
Scots/Irish x German/French Canuck
My pedigree ain't purdy but I'm proud of it! :wink:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

While some people are embarrassed to own a mixed breed dog, I myself am more embarrassed about now having FCI malinois here too. When anyone sees my new Rudy (an FCI dog) if we are out in town and asks what breed he is, I always tell them he is a mix breed. Even if they say he looks like a Malinois, I say "nope, just a big mutt".
I am still a little shy about admitting that I own a few FCI Malinois. But i dont think you will ever see a FCI Dutchie here on my property.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> But i don't think you will ever see a FCI Dutchie here on my property.


You can have a FCI dutchie, but only with the "right" pedigree.......... 
Eik also had a pedigree like that.....:-\"

We our selfs will never breed FCI dogs, (although we have a FCI Kamatz son (malinois) now in our kennel, but just because he is a good dog).
Breeding FCI is meaning you have to live/breed by the rules of the kennel club and they contradict in many ways with our breeding-goals.
Doing so, you will destroy your principals and identity. And no one should take away you principals.......
(breeding a healthy, strong working dog)

Dick


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> You can have a FCI dutchie, but only with the "right" pedigree..........
> Eik also had a pedigree like that.....:-\"
> 
> We our selfs will never breed FCI dogs, (although we have a FCI Kamatz son (malinois) now in our kennel, but just because he is a good dog).
> ...


You might be able to tell me if this is true Dick. I heard that previously the NHSB recognised and put KNPV titles on their official pedigrees. Apprently the NHSB then approched the KNPV and said if they did not only allow FCI pedigreed dogs to do KNPV then they would no longer recognise the KNPV titles and would not enter them onto the pedigrees. The KNPV told then to %^&* off, and so now KNPV titles are no longer on pedigrees. Does this sound right?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> You might be able to tell me if this is true Dick. I heard that previously the NHSB recognised and put KNPV titles on their official pedigrees. Apprently the NHSB then approched the KNPV and said if they did not only allow FCI pedigreed dogs to do KNPV then they would no longer recognise the KNPV titles and would not enter them onto the pedigrees. The KNPV told then to %^&* off, and so now KNPV titles are no longer on pedigrees. Does this sound right?



Not completly sure if that was the reason, but yes, at first the titles were put on the pedigrees and nowadays they are not anymore....

Dick


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> While some people are embarrassed to own a mixed breed dog


I just don't get that. Even in general life, but in the working world? Why would anybody care?

Do people really ooh and aah over dogs because they're purebreds, or for that matter ooh and aah over a great dog and then upon finding out it's a mutt suddenly look down their noses at them? And outside of the Internet or the small number of people who are interested in working dogs and those events (a very finite minority), does anybody really care? The average Joe doesn't know what a Malinois or Dutch Shepherd is, or what KNPV means, much less care about whether or not one is a "purebred". They're just dogs. Besides, that's how any breed or job-centric type of dog came to be.

I understand not wanting to indiscriminately breed everything together, but if you've got a good dog (whether it's a great KNPV dog, or a some sort of Hound X hunting dog, or your Border Collie mix or APBT or Terrier mix that does flyball, or your Heinz 57 mutt that keeps you company and is a great pet), if it is a good dog and does what you're asking of it (whatever that is), people are really embarrassed about owning a mixed breed? Or filled with a sense of pride or superiority simply because their dog, particularly a working dog, is a purebred?

Wouldn't the answer just be to take the best mixed dog you could find (in Christopher's case find a great KNPV Dutchie, or whatever), go to a great trainer, and then mop the floor (or at least be competitive) in whatever event you train in to whatever level you are able? Winning usually trumps most other arguments.

-Cheers


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> While some people are embarrassed to own a mixed breed dog, I myself am more embarrassed about now having FCI malinois here too. When anyone sees my new Rudy (an FCI dog) if we are out in town and asks what breed he is, I always tell them he is a mix breed.


That's too funny. Here in Los angeles, the average pet people are getting brainwashed to think mixes (especialy if it's a poor "rescued" mutt) are all the rage. Owning purebreds is frowned upon, especialy if the dog is from a breeder ('cause everyone knows they're just in it for the money), and god forbid the dog still has his testicles! :lol:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I really do understand the frustration you are feeling Christopher, but you have to remember the internet warps perception. You have a few hype-men and loudmouths and it seems like there are thousands. In reality very few people know what a Malinois or Dutchie is, much less know about the paperwork. Heck, even many of those that claim to know, or should know, don't know very much in a lot of cases. And do you really want them to understand? Do you want them to go out and buy non-FCI Dutchies? I think that their ignorance is your bliss. 

But there is a difference between non-FCI and not pedigreed. And everybody cares about pedigrees. Even people that love non-FCI dogs care. If they didn't care The Bloedlijnen site would not exist. How many times have we seen on this forum people acting like they took an overdose of Viagra over some empryo of a puppy just because it's out of a certain bloodline? Is giving a dog credit for his pedigree any better than discounting a dog for his lack of pedigree?

And as David Ruby said in his excellent post above, "Wouldn't the answer just be to take the best mixed dog you could find (in Christopher's case find a great KNPV Dutchie, or whatever), go to a great trainer, and then mop the floor (or at least be competitive) in whatever event you train in to whatever level you are able? Winning usually trumps most other arguments."


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

David Ruby said:


> I just don't get that. Even in general life, but in the working world? Why would anybody care?


I think Christopher Smith had some good points but I just want to add that working people are WAY more "cosmetically oriented" then they like to let on. And this carries over into the "mix vs pure" thing. Maybe I see it more as a breeder but you would be surprised at the number of people who want a pup who have a certain amount of masking (minimal, full, up to the ears, etc), certain body color (deep red, light fawn, heavy blackening, no blackening), want no white at all, or just a little splash on the chest, or like the big splash on the chest and white toes, big ears, little ears, etc. And it doesn't matter how good the pup is, if it's not what they want cosmetically they don't want it. I've even had people tell me they want a different pup, who I'm standing right there telling them I don't feel is as good of a working prospect, because they like it's color better. And these aren't newbies, they are people who have already trained/titled dogs. I don't know how many people over the years have asked about breeding to one of my females because she was big, or red, or had a full black mask, etc. They've never seen her work, or even interacted with her, don't know what the pedigree is, but they like her look and that's enough. Not to long ago I had a guy want to return his pup because his ears haven't stood yet. He told me it's the best dog he's ever owned, the best dog in his training group, but he wanted a replacement because the ears aren't up yet. Although when it came time to give the dog back he couldn't so instead I showed him how to tape the ears to help them up. 

The same goes for pedigrees, people tend to describe their dogs more based on the dogs behind the dog, then the traits of the specific dog itself. 

How many times do you see people describing a dog, and the first thing they describe is either the dogs looks, or the dogs pedigree. "He's a big male, full black mask, dark red, from Rover bloodlines". How about what his character is like, his drives, his grips, his athletic ability, etc??

Working people are way more hung up on looks and pedigree then we will admit, or may even realize.

Finally though, there are things that you can't do with unregistered dogs. Right or wrong, it's just the way it is. In the US you can compete in most protection sports with whatever dog you have, but if it doesn't have an FCI recognized pedigree you are "out" of some of the top level competitions. If you want to do French Ring in France, you have to have an FCI recognized pedigree. Period. So the non-FCI KNPV dogs either have to find papers, or don't get to play. I'm not sure about some of the other countries, but I believe someone posted that the same is true for Schuzhund in Germany (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Do people really ooh and aah over dogs because they're purebreds, or for that matter ooh and aah over a great dog and then upon finding out it's a mutt suddenly look down their noses at them?


In a word, yes. In every aspect of the dog world, actually, from 'simple' household pets to 'high end' competition dogs. Heck, even in _rescue_, I get people who don't want to adopt a dog unless it has papers - nevermind the fact that it's neutered!! 

I give them a CKC registration form and tell them they can send it in if they want the dog registered, if I don't have any AKC paperwork on the dog.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm not sure about some of the other countries, but I believe someone posted that the same is true for Schuzhund in Germany (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).


You can play schutzhund with a non papered Malinois in Germany. DMC will even enter one into thier studbook if it gets a Korung3.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> DMC will even enter one into thier studbook if it gets a Korung3.


Is that true? I know the Dutch Shepherd dog has open stud books where you can bring in unregistered KNPV dogs and get them pedigrees in Belgium for instance. I didnt know it was possible through the DMC as well. Kinda makes the whole FCI dogs are pure stance a little less....well......pure.


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