# Health testing of Mals and Dutchies.....



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Is anyone out there that is breeding also health testing their breeding stock(besides working/titling)? I have had people tell me that Dutchies really dont have any health issues yet, however, I see that there is a lot of Mals also in Dutchie pedigrees, and Mals do have health issues. I am sure this will start a heated debate, because I know it has started one in the Dogo world, where I get hunters telling me, well, my dog hunts, so it cant have any health problems....um, the dogo was bred specifically to ignore pain, so yes a dysplastic dog can very well hunt, and I had a male dogo with mod hd and showed no signs of it and could catch a hog and fight it, run,jump many feet into the air,etc....if you saw his xrays(wish I kept a copy b4 sending to ofa) your mouth would drop and ask how this dog could walk let alone run and jump. OK, back to Mals and Dutchies....I looked them up in Padgett's book,"Control of Canine Genetic Diseases," where he lists 308 different breeds and he then looked up in 45 different references including OFA,Veternary Medical Data Program at Perdue University, cases presented to Michigan State University, and those reported in approx 1100 research papers beginning in 1934 till the date of publish of the book, which is 1998. The reported diseases in Mals are: Gastric Dilatation-Volvulus, Hypothyroidism, epilepsy,spongiform encephalopathy,cataracts,stromal keratits,progressive retinal atrophy,hip and elbow dysplasia. The Dutchie lists elbow dysplasia and portosystem shunt(extrahepatic). So, IMHO, what that boils down to that should be(can be) tested for is blood test for thyroid, CERF eye test, hip and elbow xrays. I know nothing is guaranteed in life, but every litytle bit of knowledge definately helps. I ask these question b/c eventually I would like to get a Dutchie to compete with in sportwork, and in the past, I got burned with my first 2 dogos whose breeder swore up and down she had no health issues in her lines, but had no health tests to prove it, and one died of cancer at 3, the other of heart failure at 7, and both dogos were dysplastic. Thank God I didnt breed either of them, for I contacted owners of dogos from same breeder and their dogos also died young of same afflictions. If people dont want to answer me openly on here, feel free to shoot me a PM. Thanks.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Maureen no matter the breed theres helath issues and anybody that tells you a breed is health free is BS to you. Funny thing is that must mutts are the helathiest ( what a slap in the face to the purest out there huh ). Anyways before we bred we had hips,elbows,thyroid done and looked at by our vet and also a bruclerosis ( sorry if mis-spelled ), along with a full vet examination from top to bottom front to back and blood work done to make sure there is no under lying issues.

I think what people refer to when they say no issues is the Dutch line dogs because there generally alot more healthy overall, not saying theres some bad apples but compared to the other gentics and like the GSD the numbers are considerably alot less. In time though they will have their issues just like the GSD as a whole breed does here in the USA do to no knowledge but want to be your next backyarder or big contractor needing to produce numbers and doesn't care about gentics and quality but just needs quanity to get rich off the Gov't.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks Harry for your response. Yeah, I know all breeds have some sort of health issues,just some more than others. I have had now 2 Dogos and 1 Am Staff(rescue, but purebred with papers) that I did not know the health in the lines(well, no proof that is) and all 3 died young and had health issues from almost day one. Cost lots of $$$ and lots of heartache. I will never acquire another dog without having proof of health tests of whatever are inherent in that breed that can be tested for, and hopefully, for the stuff not able to be tested for, at least knowing what most of the dogs in the pedigree died of and what age.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Must say that "up to now" there aren't much health issues in NVBK working malinois, but it is a time bomb ticking.
There are dogs that produce health issues and they are used for breeding...
I must say that I'll be very selective with the lines of the mother of my future dog.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

I will not breed dogs without hips, elbows and spines xrayed. I have switched to Penn Hip But still use OFA for elbows.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

X-rays aren't required for mals in Belgium but we always have our dogs tested.
Wouldn't want to spend 2 yrs of training and then find out that the dog's health sucks...


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

For whatever its worth, i just got 6 dogs in from Belgium from a new vendor that I decided to use there. All 6 dogs work very well, but when I x rayed them here 3 of them have bad hips and one has a bad elbow. So 4 of the 6 are going back to Belgium tomorrow. Safe to say those were the first and last dogs that I will buy form that broker in Belgium.
Like Harry said......all breeds of dogs are subhect to having health issues, no matter what anyone says. I would X ray any dog before I paid for it, or breed with it, or sell it.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

we x ray on hips, elbows, spine at about 1/ 1.5 yr old. Only breed with dogs with complete teeth, and very good x rays, next to suitable character.

In some KNPV lines (mali's) we're aware of 1 health problem: larynx/vocal cords paralysis which will show in situations a dog finds stressfull. 
Some dogs have a extra spinal, 8 instead of 7.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Thank you everyone for your honest answers....now, what is with the spine and problems you are looking for? Subluxation, herniation, DJD? I see Selena mentioned an extra vertabrae, dos that cause problems, or is it soemthing else?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

transitional (8th) vertebra can be found in many lines. I have not seen or heard of any problems from it, but I do know that it is a disqualifying issue with all of the US Govt. agencies. I have a GSD here now with a transitional vertebra that is a hammer in the work, but unfortunately he will be returned as well because it is a deal breaker for me.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> transitional (8th) vertebra can be found in many lines. I have not seen or heard of any problems from it, but I do know that it is a disqualifying issue with all of the US Govt. agencies. I have a GSD here now with a transitional vertebra that is a hammer in the work, but unfortunately he will be returned as well because it is a deal breaker for me.


 
Had a dog that had the transitional vertebra and he got 2 good rotations in before he started to lift his hind leg, would still work in drive, however dog would walk on three legs forever....he is retired now living the good life. 

It is however a potential liability if you are working with that animal on the street/combat...never know when he will show problems....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> we x ray on hips, elbows, spine at about 1/ 1.5 yr old. Only breed with dogs with complete teeth, and very good x rays, next to suitable character.
> 
> In some KNPV lines (mali's) we're aware of 1 health problem: larynx/vocal cords paralysis which will show in situations a dog finds stressfull.
> Some dogs have a extra spinal, 8 instead of 7.


If the teeth are not complete, which ones are generally missing? I knew this is a fairly common issues with brachycephalic breeds but I did not know that it occurred with any kind of frequency worth mentioning in herders. Most of my DDB were missing P2/3, sometimes only on one side but occasionally on both.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>Funny thing is that must mutts are the helathiest 
this is a false statement, no vet would back up , it just sounds good, 
i would say more purebred owners test for more things, how many mutts just exray just to see if the dog is dysplastic, unless there is a problem , 

i own one mixed breed, husky X , she has hip dysplacia, and bone spurs in her elbow, also urinary inccotence, I have owned one other mixed breed in my life and it had epilepsy soo bad we had to put her down just over one yr old, she was a beagle X 

I have 8 dogs that live with me now, and none of the purebreds have hip or elbow dysplacia,


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I xray hips and elbows on all my dogs. After owning and breeding GSD's, I am all too well aware of the trouble hips and elbows can give you. We are starting up Dutch Shepherds here in this country, so its importnat that the inital breeding stock is healthy. Unfortunatly im the only person breeding them who is doing it.
I havent been xraying spines yet, but I will have to look more into it in the future.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Again,thank you all that are contributing to this thread. Let me add I am also the kind that has no problems importing, both dogos I have currently I have imported from Europe, being that no breeder here in the US is testing to my standards(health,temperament,working ability). I even flew out to Denmark to pick one of them up a few years back.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> If the teeth are not complete, which ones are generally missing? I knew this is a fairly common issues with brachycephalic breeds but I did not know that it occurred with any kind of frequency worth mentioning in herders. Most of my DDB were missing P2/3, sometimes only on one side but occasionally on both.


not frequently, but it happens. I look from a breeders prespective. Breeding dog 1 with missing P1, and it can happen that in the 3rd/4rd gen you miss 'P4's.

Besides that it is related to skeleton structure. All in all much to important to "don't want to see it", esp if you -like us- line/inbreed much.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

I also want to add in to see if anyone is also keeping a record of not just their breeding stock , but the dogs behind their breeding stock....not just certified parents(OFA,OVC,Penn,FCI), but what about certifications of their grandparents and great grandparents? I have seen 2 OFA Exc parents produce dysplastic pups(not just one, most of the litter) and 2 full hearing parents produce a litter full of unilats and bilat deaf pups....that was because nothing was known behind the parents.
I also had another person tell me that, "there are no known health problems in these lines," and " this dog's relative is one of the most bred of its breed with one of the most working dogs produced" .....if you don't actually test, how can you make that statement?????(I am keeping name and lines out to not start a war). Also, if you dont actually get an "offical" reading of an unbiased health professional and just xray, how can you claim your dog has excellent hips/elbows,etc?
I also want to add, when you do a total outcross, you can "hide" problems in either line...it is when you do a line or inbreeding do those problems pop up again....hence why you should know what is even further back in the lines.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Maureen A.
Did you get a dog from Jessica then? A swedish woman in denmark?
I met a cupple of her dogs. Nice ones.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

andreas broqvist said:


> Maureen A.
> Did you get a dog from Jessica then? A swedish woman in denmark?
> I met a cupple of her dogs. Nice ones.


 Actually from Birgitte and Peter, PPC Dogos in Denmark...I think Jessica may have a dogo or 2 from them and/or has studded to PPC. My male is from Finland, however, his dam is from PPC dogos also and his father is owned by PPC dogos(was Argentine import). I started last night attempting to use that pedigree database to put my 2 dogos into as well as hip scores of them and their relatives....what a PIA that program is, lots of glitches!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I xray hips and elbows on all my dogs. After owning and breeding GSD's, I am all too well aware of the trouble hips and elbows can give you. We are starting up Dutch Shepherds here in this country, so its importnat that the inital breeding stock is healthy. Unfortunatly im the only person breeding them who is doing it.
> I haven't been xraying spines yet, but I will have to look more into it in the future.


And shout it from the mountain!!!!!! Good for YOU!!!!there so many sonsabitches here in America breeding and selling untested stock its a 1000 times worse than rabies has ever been here greed, lazy, selfish, opportunistic that's how the large majority of working dog breeders operate here in America.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Mike Scheiber said:


> And shout it from the mountain!!!!!! Good for YOU!!!!there so many sonsabitches here in America breeding and selling untested stock its a 1000 times worse than rabies has ever been here greed, lazy, selfish, opportunistic that's how the large majority of working dog breeders operate here in America.


 Amen Mike! People here in AMerica get so fixated on ONE GREAT aspect of their breeding stock, but forget about the rest....People have to look at their breeding stock as a WHOLE...health,working ability,temperament,conformation, etc....there is NO PERFECT DOG, so therefore, you need to be willing to work good AND bad.....try to improve on the bad while strengthening the good.......ie, I would breed a dog with borderline or mild HD IF IF IF IF the dog being bred to had great hips as well as many great hips in the pedigree and IF IF IF IF IF that first dog had something else OUTSTANDING to the table, ie ex cellent temperament and/or excellent working ability......ie what one dog is lacking the other best make up for it, HOWEVER, ONLY ONE THING CAN BE A LITTLE OFF IN EACH DOG...the rest(health,temperament,working ability,OR conformation) best be to par with the breed. JMHO.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't test except in the field. If they can't cut it with the rest of the doigs they have a problem because the Sierras are steep and rough. Other than that, I agree with Mike except for it isn't just breeders in the US of A. Mike is sendi8ng 3 of 4 dogs back if I remember right. Where were those dogs from? Maureen 's dogos were from across the pond and they both had HD. It is everywhere. The problem is everyone pats themselves on the back because they are responsible and test. Big deal most people breed them anyway because they rationalize their dog is just to good not to breed for one thing. The other is they do nothing to prevent problems while the pups are young and most suseptible to an unnatural environment that causes the problems. They test. and feel good...so what. They have an official ratin which is subjective depending on numerous factors, and that is where it ends. We have a whole world of people that know how there dogs rated. That doesn't correct any problems.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Actually DOn my 2 first HD dogos were from a breeder here in NY not overseas. I think I answered what you said ^ in my post above yours.Yes, you have to do something with all that info(ie apply it into your breeding, use the info to make informed decisions on what to breed-ie what is the reason behind your breeding)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Actually DOn my 2 first HD dogos were from a breeder here in NY not overseas. I think I answered what you said ^ in my post above yours.Yes, you have to do something with all that info(ie apply it into your breeding, use the info to make informed decisions on what to breed-ie what is the reason behind your breeding)


Ok, but the breeds being discussed still have the same problems on both sides. Is the last part in parenthesis a question?


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

^ no,"you" is just a general statement


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

check this article out
http://leonberger-hunde.org/images/PDF_downloads/OFABreedersInfo.pdf

if you scroll to page 10,there is a grid of what percentages of when breeding 1 hip cert to another, what % normal and what % dyslpalstic you get....what I found interesting(and has been set as a rule in a few countries in Europe) is that OFA Fair x OFA Fair produces just about the same % of normal and dysplastic pups as a breeding between OFA Good x Dysplastic (diff of 0.2%). A few KC in Europe only allow a FCI C(OFA borderline-mild) to FCI A(OFA Exc-Good)....also kinda proves what I said above. Then it states:
Breed normal dogs that come from normal parents and grandparents[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]—this employs the traditional horizontal pedigree with emphasis on the most immediate three generations (50% genetic contribution from each parent, 25% from each grandparent and 12.5% from each great grandparent)
[/FONT]3. Breed normal dogs that have more than 75% normal siblings[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]—this information is usually not available since most animals in a litter become pets and are not screened for undesirable traits. Breeders can add incentives to purchase contracts in an attempt to gather this information, such as offering reimbursement for a preliminary hip radiograph taken when the pet dog is spayed/neutered.
[/FONT]4. Select a dog that has a record of producing a higher than breed average percentage of normal progeny[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit]—if known, the comparison of production performance between individuals is an important criterion. For example, a stud dog with a track record of producing 90% normal progeny is far superior to another dog producing only 50% normal progeny.
[/FONT] 
[FONT=KAVTIJ+Esprit-Book,Esprit] 
[/FONT]


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Don. The problem With not testing for hips and just se if The dog CSN do The work is that most peopel breed tjis dogs att 1-3 yesrs and if you wukd se à bad hip at that age The dog is extemly bad, not Just bad


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