# Does crate training have any effect on drive?



## Dave Immure (Oct 15, 2008)

Does crate training have any effect on drive? I have a 16 week old puppy that I started to crate train on the following schedule:

6:30am Elimination Area - Drive Work
6:45am Long Walk
7:10am Obedience (positive)
7:20am Breakfast in Crate
7:30am Elimination Area
7:45am Crate

11-11:30am Elimination Area - Stretch Break
11:30am Crate

3:30pm - 4pm Elimination Area - Stretch Break
4pm Crate

5:30pm - Elimination Area 
5:45[pm - obedience (positive) 
6:00pm - short walk 
6:30pm - Dinner in crate
6:45pm - Elimination Area

9:00pm - Elimination Area
9:15pm - Free time in house supervised.
10:00pm - Crate

12:00pm - Elimination Area
12:15pm - Crate

3:00am - Elimination Area Stretch Break

At first he was against it now he is calm and submissive in the crate. What I am wondering is will this type of schedule have any effect on his drive? Can a puppy still be a puppy with this type of routine? He has good drives already and I work with him a lot and give him tons of love and attention. I move his crate around a lot in the house so that he gets use to all rooms, and he sleeps in my bedroom in his crate at night.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Looks like a very good schedule.

Yes, crate training, IME *definitely* has an effect on drive.

It builds it. The dog doesn't spend all day getting tired and having all of his natural urges to romp and play statisfied in the house, chasing flies. Instead, he is raring to go when you get him out to work. He places more value on his time working with and for you than a dog that can freely interact all day long with you and anything else he pleases. 

A crate trained dog doesn't take time out of the crate for granted.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

^^^ what she said ^^^

I would do a schedule differently. Obedience BEFORE the walk! No meals in the crate - all food earned in obedience training. Drive work should be 3 to 5 times a day, but only 1 minute at a time. I can work obedience into a potty break. Just watch me. :lol: Actually, *I* would not be walking the pup at all. 3-5 sessions of drive and 3-5 sessions of obedience may be enough exercise.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I personally have a GSD that is crate trained and it has built a LOT more drive that he really didn't need...lol lol lol BUT I agree with what has been said.....Crating builds drive!! 

I did take my pup out on walks and did Obed then. He also got a little playtime with the other dogs. BUT it was never very much! 

Courtney


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## Dave Immure (Oct 15, 2008)

Thanks for the replies guys. This is the first time I've crate trained a dog. I needed the reassurance. Especially since most of my friends don't understand it. 

I've been doing drive work during play times but I have been doing it well past one minute. Honestly I spend at least five minutes with a leather bite rag. He doesn't care to much for the ball and string. I will need to watch Leerburg's building Drive and Focus vid again. I'll try the short one minute sessions from now on.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sounds like the pup is doing hard time for murder or something :| 



Dave Immure said:


> Does crate training have any effect on drive? I have a 16 week old puppy that I started to crate train on the following schedule:
> 
> 6:30am Elimination Area - Drive Work
> 6:45am Long Walk
> ...


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I'll second exercise then ob. After being crated, IMO, it is unfair to a pup to expect it to practice OB first thing out of the gate. Unless you consider them sitting calmly to exit crate OB...I guess OB first! But then exercise/drive building and ob session.

Exercise, ob, then affection!  Just like Cesar says!


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Depending on how old the pup is, Rags work better in building drive for young pups. Hell, my dog didn't want anthing to do with a ball until about 5-6 months, and then one day the light went on and he just started going nuts for it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I wouldn't worry to much about the pup. My concern would lean more to worrying about someone that is regimented enough to make that schedule up much less follow it. [-o< Gerry was right, sounds like you are bringing a hardened criminal in for a life sentence.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I think (and you can ask my teammate Tom for recent first-hand experience with this!) if you ask 10 different people, you'll get 10 different answers.

I personally don't think a crate _builds_ drive at all. I think it merely prevents the dog from 1. expressing it's drive in ways you don't want it to and similarly 2. learning behaviors you don't want it to learn. 

And, it gives you a break from those damn sharp little teeth!


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## Dave Immure (Oct 15, 2008)

Gerry, Don,

I was trying to convey the type of routine I'm establishing with the pup in order to get advice from more experienced dog owners. This is the first pup that I have raised. I admit that I am a noob. I'm just trying to do the best I can. The routine is not followed the way its written. I don't watch the clock and time every outing with the pup minute by minute. I do try to stick close to it. For the pups benefit as well as mine. That way we know what to expect from each other, and he knows that he will not be stuck in a crate forever and forgotten about.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll agree with Konnie on this. 
Frustration builds drive. I don't look at, or want my dog to look at the crate as a frustrating place. 
That's for "chillin"!
Either way, crate training is the way to go with a pup as long as it's never used as punishment.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

A crate is a great place for the pup/dog that can't be supervised for any reason but it can't enhance drives that aren't there in the first place. Make it nice with some titbits. It isn't a place for punishment but I admit to using it once before I nearly lost it with my younger dog whose drive was driving me crazy.:-$ 

For the older dog it has its uses between exercises. Putting it in the car or one of the club boxes in between exercises can avoid creating problems if one of the exercise need correction to ensure the next one is conflict free. It also heightens the desire. There's nothing worse than having the dog on the field during the whole training session and means you can observe the other handler's dog in peace.

Relax, forget the schedule, enjoy your pup, play games, tug, whatever, nothing too long, even walks, not always necessary and not always good for its physical development. Let it run around (in a safe area) it'll show you when its tired.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Plastic crates may be the worst thing ever created in the dog world. They were created to replace the bulky, and expensive, aluminum airling carriers. They were created to move animals about safely, to and from vet, training, vacations and so forth. Before the platic crates, people used kennels for the dog to spend his time in. They have small ones, they have big ones. What happened to the back yard? There are discussion on imprinting and many other topics concerning when critical periods are for learning, bonding, fear. Whether these time lines are valid or not, all take place when the dog is young. Todays dogs spend his critical times locked in a crate. I have had people tell me that the dog loves the crate and runs to it when frightened. Of course he runs to it, it is the dogs life. The crate is what it knows. Records show most convicts go back to prison. Why? They are institututionalized and the is the place they feel safe because they can't cope with everyday things. 
Dave, I am not picking at you or others that do use the crate extensively. Look at the net. Any new dog person would think this is the way dogs are handled and in todays world it largly is. It shouldn't be. If it strengthens the drives it doesn't matter because my guees would be it the drives ar less controlled. One thing it is not going to do is make them smart. Being locked in a crate removes them from vast amounts of new experiences they could have learned to deal with. Look at this scenario.
You come to my place to possibly get a puppy. I walk you over to one row of crates and say, crate 5 is the sire to these pups. Facing thes crates is another row. I say the crate directly in front of crate 5 is the dam to these same pups. Of course I offer to take them out of the crates if you really need to see them where they can stand up. Next, we go around to the other side of the building and here are the smaller crates, everything is very regimented and orderly like your schedule mind you. Pink crates are the female pups, Brown crates are males. Pick which ever one you want. By now you are appauled. You want to know why I keep 40 dogs in crates outside. I tell you to look around, you don't see one pile of crap. Can't do that if they are loose ya know. Makes it easier on me. I have other things to do. Just look over there. They chewed the step off the house last time they were loose. Look over there where the lawn is dug up........should I keep going? One dog Dave. Teach it a solid down stay. If you have a back yard, the dog door is the greatest device of the last century. Get a portable kennel. Use the carry kennel for house breaking, short stays, sleeping.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Don,

While I agree with you in theory, for many of us it is too dangerous for the dog to leave it unsupervised in any way.

I don't like to crate my dog constantly. She lives in my car when the weather is appropriate for it. 

My other thinking is that I want to be the primary influence in my dog's life. Inetacting with me is more fun than interacting with anything else. A pup chasing bugs in the yard is learning that chasing bugs in the yard is fun. Because I want to train as motivationally as possible, freedom and free play can interfere with training.

However, *balance is good. *

I've definitely overdone the training on my dog now. The only play she has ever had is drive building, tug training or retrieve training. Fun, but all training. She has never had freedom (excepting a time from about 6 - 12 months old, when she was strictly a kennel dog). Never interacted with another dog. Very rarely gets any attention that is not praise for a correctly done behavior. I couldn't get her to drink water this morning because 1) she tried to retrieve the water dish. I said "No!" and 2) she retrieved a cloth on the floor. :banghead: Apparently, if I train my dog to not have a brain, I should train it to drink water on cue.

These are two extremes. I see faults in both of them. While I won't stick a pup out in the yard to get stolen or harassed, and I won't leave a pup unattended indoors to get into trash and pee on the floor, I won't repeat exactly the same that I have done with this dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> My other thinking is that I want to be the primary influence in my dog's life. Inetacting with me is more fun than interacting with anything else. A pup chasing bugs in the yard is learning that chasing bugs in the yard is fun. Because I want to train as motivationally as possible, freedom and free play can interfere with training


I see. You believe for the dog to be totally focused on you, everything fun and interesting about living should be eliminated except contact with you? Is that out of a training manual?



> While I agree with you in theory, for many of us it is too dangerous for the dog to leave it unsupervised in any way.


Anne, my yard has dangers. I have lost a few pups over the years because of it. That is life. I have electric fences all over the yards. Both sides of all inside fences have double wires on both sides so the males(which are one per yard) cannot reach each other with a 4' saftey zone. The electric fence makes it save for the males but for the pups, it is a definite learning experience. They do learn quick yet freak things do happen. Not long ago a pup crawled over the hot wire in a corner where the wire is not far from the fence. Pup didn't get hocked because the ground was to dry to ground the pup. Well, the fence is attached to metal stakes that are 2' in the ground so the fence is well grounded. The pup was going to crawl throught the fence and when he got part way through the hole the fence it her up. I heard her sqeal and whyent out and I could see she had reached around and grabbed the fence in her mouth and couldn't open her mouth. I( was off at a run and when I pulled her off, the hair was smoking where it was touching the wire. She was limp as a wet rag. I massaged he a few minutes and in five minutes, she was chasing treats. Carry crats are not a substitute for a kennel IMO.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Holy crap, seriously?

Your argument about yards being superior to crates involves a pup being electrocuted?

Wow. Compelling argument.
I'm totally sold.


WTF.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I see. You believe for the dog to be totally focused on you, everything fun and interesting about living should be eliminated except contact with you? Is that out of a training manual?


Not exactly - although it's easy to see it that way. It's my job to be more interesting than dirt. It's my job to capture the pup's interest in a distracting environment. It's the pup's job to choose what to focus on. It's my job to make sure the pup never has a chance to make a poor choice.



> Anne, my yard has dangers. I have lost a few pups over the years because of it. That is life. I have electric fences all over the yards. Both sides of all inside fences have double wires on both sides so the males(which are one per yard) cannot reach each other with a 4' saftey zone. The electric fence makes it save for the males but for the pups, it is a definite learning experience. They do learn quick yet freak things do happen. Not long ago a pup crawled over the hot wire in a corner where the wire is not far from the fence. Pup didn't get hocked because the ground was to dry to ground the pup. Well, the fence is attached to metal stakes that are 2' in the ground so the fence is well grounded. The pup was going to crawl throught the fence and when he got part way through the hole the fence it her up. I heard her sqeal and whyent out and I could see she had reached around and grabbed the fence in her mouth and couldn't open her mouth. I( was off at a run and when I pulled her off, the hair was smoking where it was touching the wire. She was limp as a wet rag. I massaged he a few minutes and in five minutes, she was chasing treats. Carry crats are not a substitute for a kennel IMO.


In MY situation, I cannot replace my pup easily and pup left outdoors is not a risk I'm willing to take. 

I don't believe that crates are a permanent solution. I got divorced this year and two of my dogs were crated excessively because of it. I rehomed them because I knew my situation was not going to change quickly and the dogs deserved better. 

I'm not talking about using a small crate as a dog's only and constant method of confinement. I don't think anyone here is.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That story was to illustrate that sh!t happens. It is going to happen. Crate or no crate. A pup could swallow something in about a half a second and die when let out of a cratre. Maybe he should never get out. Dog may die at 4 from kindney failure but he was safe for four years. May die at six from cancer...but we kept him safe. Allysa, I don't really care how anyone else keeps their dogs. They are your dogs to do with as you please. I just have my own perspective and it isn't yours nor many others. From my personal standpoint, If I had to crate a dog extensively, I wouldn't own one. Particularily a young dog. That is just the way I am but, I don't expect you or anyone else to necessarily agree with me. I won't handfeed any pup and I won't raise them in the house. You probably don't agree with that but, you don't have to It is just varied opinions on a subject.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Fair 'nuff.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Maybe Don also has cattle in the yard, he needs to keep enclosed


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I wish I had cattle in my yard.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

No cattle yet.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I sort of crate/ex-pen train my pups the same way and have actually typed up that type of schedule for the puppy buyers. Eventually as adults they run the house loose. I also attach a long line to their collar and tie it around my waist so they are with me as I'm doing things. They have some room to explore and the line allows me to keep them out of trouble. The next level is in the same room with me loose with a gate up. It keeps expanding as doggie matures. By 8-9 weeks, most of mine are sleeping through the night from midnight to about 6:00 a.m. I figure crate training teaches doggie to chill and chill quietly. 

Don, I keep wondering that with the posts on confident vs. non-confident and references to feral pups, are you training your dogs for work as an adult. Do you still hunt with them? What sort of commands do you train in them to hunt and how early do you start?

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi Dave: I think your schedule and the crate are fine as frogs hairs. If yours is a high drive dog, I would suggest keeping him in a run when unsupervised. Sometimes I stick my dog in the crate in his run for a few hours of quiet time (for both of our sakes!).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Hi Dave: I think your schedule and the crate are fine as frogs hairs. If yours is a high drive dog, I would suggest keeping him in a run when unsupervised. Sometimes I stick my dog in the crate in his run for a few hours of quiet time (for both of our sakes!).


An informal "survey" (that is, PMs I've received) would agree overwhelmingly with this post. 




P.S. Well, no one else actually mentioned frog hairs.


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