# Training in multiple sports?



## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

I am looking into getting a working Beauceron in the next year or two. This dog will be my first actual working dog, I currently own a rescued 16 month old male Rottweiler/German Shepherd mix who is training in agility.

I was looking into a bunch of different sports I would like to compete in and I would love to compete in either Schutzhund, French Ring or Mondioring. I was thinking maybe for my Beauceron I would try doing Schutzhund and then after training in either French Ring or Mondioring.

I dont know much about French Ring or Mondioring yet, so I was wondering what would be easier for a dog to do, go from Schutzhund to FR or for a dog to go from Schutzhund to MR?

Also what about training in other sports (agility or herding) with those protection sports? Im not really looking to really compete in agility or herding with this dog, I would just like it as a little something different and something that my other dog could join in with too.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've done SAR, AKC obedience, Schutzhund and herding with my older dog.
As for doing different bite sports others will have a better answer.
I believe it's all about having the right dog and knowing what your doing.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Probably just depends on what your goals are. If your goals are to be at nationals every year, that's going to be much more difficult training hard in more than one sport. If you just want to have fun with your dog (which is totally fine too), do it! I train in multiple sports with my main dog. We do PSA, herding, and dock diving (order of "importance" in that order) and have dabbled in other stuff too. Like I may try an SDA trial for fun, might do a Schutzhund BH or AD at some point, the new AKC lure coursing thing for non-sight hounds looks fun, and I may switch to another bite sport when I move depending on what's available. Because my limited time is split, it's going to take us longer to trial in any one venue. Just a fact of life. Though I'm not a trialing junkie, so not a huge deal. I just appreciate a very versatile dog. :smile: Since I have a keen interest in working and performance dog sports medicine, it'll be of benefit to my future clients if I have first hand experience of their sports as well, so it's in my best interest to be a serial dabbler. ;-)

As far as training in multiple bite sports, there are those who do it and do it successfully, but you may want to get to a stopping place in one sport before picking up another. Like I'd suspect two sports that are pretty similar but not exact may be a challenge (say one of the ring sports and PSA) to go to one club on one day and to go to another club another day whereas Schutzhund and ring or Schutzhund and PSA are different enough, but somewhat complementary. Then again, I haven't done ring, so I'll defer to those folks.


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

I dont really care about doing anything like nationals but for schutzhund I would like to get a SchH3 title and then for the other sports its more about just the experience for me and the fun for the dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Then I would say if you have the time, go for it. ;-) Never had a Beauceron (Mals and Rotties are more my breeds), but just keep it fun when they're young as I understand they are slow to mature and there's a more limited working lines gene pool of them than Mals, GSDs, Dutch shepherds, etc. Agility training, even if you don't compete, is good for cross training in many sports. Schutzhund's not bad to start out in, but I do find the suit sports more fun. :-D


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks 

For my next dog i was considering either a mal, rottie, GSD or beauceron. mals seem a little to high strung for me right now, i wanted a kind of different dog so i deiced to not get a GSD, rotties are my absolute favorite breed but there just some thing about the beauceron that drew me to them for my next dog. 

Im hoping my beauceron will come from Debbie Skinner's kennel, Ive been looking at her dogs and they all seem to be pretty well rounded so hopefully my beauceron will be able to handle at least dabbling in a bunch of different sports.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

My suggestion for herding would be to let the dog mature a bit before trying it. Like about 3yrs or so. I think I would have progressed a bit faster with my female if I had waited. We started at about 9 months, and boy oh boy was it a wiid ride! She is coming 6 and we have our first AKC Int leg on sheep. We need 2 more legs for the Int title.

You may be hard pressed to find a stock owner that will allow the BBD(big black dog) to come out "for fun". They may require more of a training commitment.

Some friends of mine live in NJ and have a large flock ,100+ ,of sheep. They train their Beaucerons for the HGH. If you could get into large flock work, I think you could start much earlier and easier  That 3 - 5 head of AKC stuff is really difficult for immature powerful dogs that have a funny sense of humor. LOL

Good luck to you and your soon to be pup!

Kellie
Akiva des Ombres Valeureux PT, HSAs
Bleiz'h PT


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

I think I would concentrate on working in one sport. Take your time let the pup be a pup and go slow. You cannot get a BH in Schutzhund until (at the earliest) 16 months. I think you might be surprised at how much time, energy and money competing in one sport can take let alone doing them all. A Schutzhund 3 will take you several years to obtain. I don't know what your level of dog handling is but It is not uncommon for new dog handlers (new to a sport) to take 3 to 4 years to get a sch3 title - JMO

Hope you find a good dog and good luck in training.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I do herding and agility with my 3 youngsters. Pretty full on really. I do herding because they are my working dogs on my farm and agility because I enjoy it. Probably it would be easier if I just picked one and concentrated on doing it well! But I know people who excel in herding, agility, tracking and obedience with the same dog, dont know how they do it.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

What I've seen first hand with a younger malinois (under 1 year old) that was started in French Ring as a pup and then started herding training was that the dog started moving away from the clatter stick. It was a dog that was coming to club and it took some Q&A by the decoy to figure out what had changed and was causing this. This same dog was also being trained in AKC style obedience and the owner was using a cuing stick. All this was going on at the same time and the dog started moving away from the stick. Not releasing but who knows if it would of become a serious problem. We had the owner stop with the multiple training venues for awhile and the dog recovered. This was a very resilient working malinois though and some dogs might not bounce back.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> My suggestion for herding would be to let the dog mature a bit before trying it. Like about 3yrs or so. I think I would have progressed a bit faster with my female if I had waited. We started at about 9 months, and boy oh boy was it a wiid ride! She is coming 6 and we have our first AKC Int leg on sheep. We need 2 more legs for the Int title.
> 
> You may be hard pressed to find a stock owner that will allow the BBD(big black dog) to come out "for fun". They may require more of a training commitment.
> 
> ...


Good advice. Please let me know where you will be trialing next and I'll try to come and watch. Got a small diesel vw now so don't have to drive the 1 ton 'tank' so am more mobile now. Great job with Akiva.


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## Angie Panczak (Mar 1, 2011)

Sarah Best said:


> Thanks
> 
> For my next dog i was considering either a mal, rottie, GSD or beauceron. mals seem a little to high strung for me right now, i wanted a kind of different dog so i deiced to not get a GSD, rotties are my absolute favorite breed but there just some thing about the beauceron that drew me to them for my next dog.
> 
> Im hoping my beauceron will come from Debbie Skinner's kennel, Ive been looking at her dogs and they all seem to be pretty well rounded so hopefully my beauceron will be able to handle at least dabbling in a bunch of different sports.


Hi,
I can see the why you are drawn to the beauceron. They are beautiful. I was told by a breeder that alot of sport people that have trained Mals and GSD that try the Beauceron are disappointed when they do Ring or Schtuzhund. If you find a great working kennel please let me know. 
I do agility as a second sport with my GSD and I think it is a good idea.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Did herding and Schutzhund with one of my dogs and ended up with a stick problem for a couple of months in Schutzhund. He was a really good dog so it ended up fine, but because I started him too young in herding with a somewhat adversive trainer, he ended up getting hit way too much with the PVC pole for trying to bite sheep. I dropped herding after he bit the herding instructor. 
My current dog I am doing french ring and Sch with. I do compete at Nationals in Schutzhund and as I get to the upper levels in ring, I am finding more and more conflicts between the sport. Since I want to do both well, and not lose his ability to compete at a National level, I usually prepare for one sport for a couple months,trial, then do the other one for a couple months, etc.... This is an exceptionally clear headed dog who thinks very well under stress. He can do it, but my other 2 never could. 
Reiki was very very slow in ring first (he did Schut for 2 years before biting the suit), he was thinking too much about his targeting. He would even turn his head about 5 strides before the decoy.Hysterical. "I am going to bite your left leg now" Luckily, I had a decoy who is very good at teaching targeting,so as Reik got more confident, he got faster and faster and it's not such a problem any more. Due to that experience, my ring club would probably say teach targeting for ring before doing Schutzhund,siince the targeting is so much easier. I myself, really like the grip and bite development I do in Schutzhund so I am somewhat on the fence about which sport to do first. The one you like best or the one that is available to you most!
Have fun!


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Sarah Best said:


> I am looking into getting a working Beauceron in the next year or two. This dog will be my first actual working dog, I currently own a rescued 16 month old male Rottweiler/German Shepherd mix who is training in agility.
> 
> I was looking into a bunch of different sports I would like to compete in and I would love to compete in either Schutzhund, French Ring or Mondioring. I was thinking maybe for my Beauceron I would try doing Schutzhund and then after training in either French Ring or Mondioring.
> 
> ...


 
Sara, depending where you are in Ney York. You are in the big picture somewhat close to Esa Rasimus in Ontario Canada. He has outstanding Beaucerons. In fact one of his females went top Ring I in Canada this past season. He has bred dogs that are in sar and he has educated himself in France to keep up his knowledge of Beaucerons. He is also a sport protection freak.

Not only do his beaucerons work well. They are very good to look at. Well put together.

You might want to take a drive up and visit his place and or spend a day on his training field. In fact his ring field is the best in all of Canada. 

I am sure he is on this board but if you need help getting in touch with. Contact me by pm and I will put u in touch with him.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

In beginning herding training, the dog is taught to give to pressure. You step into the dog and the dog must give ground to you. This is the means by which you teach the dog to give the sheep more space. To try and keep the sheep from running themselves into the fence in full freak out mode. This give to pressure can also be taught in a fun playful way before you take the dog to sheep. Waiting to teach that give in the heat of the moment on sheep is nerve wracking.

It makes sense to me that "giving to pressure" may interfere with bite work.

The Beauceron likes to be close to the sheep...most sheep don't like to be that close to the Beauceron.

I know on more sheep, the dog is able to relax, the sheep are more relaxed. It is a win win. I only wish there was large flock training closer to me. Out here in AZ there aren't any green pastures to take the sheep out for grazing.

Kellie


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Good advice. Please let me know where you will be trialing next and I'll try to come and watch. Got a small diesel vw now so don't have to drive the 1 ton 'tank' so am more mobile now. Great job with Akiva.


Thanks, will do.

Out here diesel is higher than supreme!

Kellie


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I started in herding with Thunder, my Sch III when he was five. The stick was a big problem at first. I've gotten around it with good marker OB away from the herding field. 
The first time my herding instructor, T, walked in the pen with Thunder, carrying the stick, she changed her mind fast:-o. When she blocked his path with the stick he stopped working the sheep. He stiffened up, tail and ears went up, mouth puckered and he had that "I dare you" stare. Thunder now adores her but it took a while and we used the stick only as a directional "gate".
He's actually gripped it when I've pushed to far.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> What I've seen first hand with a younger malinois (under 1 year old) that was started in French Ring as a pup and then started herding training was that the dog started moving away from the clatter stick. It was a dog that was coming to club and it took some Q&A by the decoy to figure out what had changed and was causing this. This same dog was also being trained in AKC style obedience and the owner was using a cuing stick. All this was going on at the same time and the dog started moving away from the stick. Not releasing but who knows if it would of become a serious problem. We had the owner stop with the multiple training venues for awhile and the dog recovered. This was a very resilient working malinois though and some dogs might not bounce back.


I've run into this as well, but kind of the opposite problem: my dog nearly almost totally ignores the stock stick and is to the point of once running his eye right into it because he wouldn't give (I was holding it not quite horizontal about a foot or two off the ground and he ran right into it trying to run around me). Ouch...made me concerned he'd be more worried about stick hits in PSA. He hasn't come off a bite or anything because of stick hits, but he's now a little more prone to shutting his eyes during a drive. I haven't done herding in about two months as I'm concentrating more on PSA at the moment for this reason. It'd take a very talented dog (and handler, of which I am not) to be successful at both at the same time. The other thing we ran into is a dog needs to be calm and clear headed around the prey objects in herding, but not as much in bite sport. Has been tricky trying to teach him to cap his drives around the sheep. Lots and lots of exercise helps a little... :-k If I had to do it over again, I probably would want to have him finished in bitework younger and then start on sheep later (like 4-5+ years).


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Sara, depending where you are in Ney York. You are in the big picture somewhat close to Esa Rasimus in Ontario Canada. He has outstanding Beaucerons. In fact one of his females went top Ring I in Canada this past season. He has bred dogs that are in sar and he has educated himself in France to keep up his knowledge of Beaucerons. He is also a sport protection freak.
> 
> Not only do his beaucerons work well. They are very good to look at. Well put together.
> 
> ...



Thanks for telling me about him 

I looked it up and hes only about 6 hours from me, so over the summer Ill defiantly try and make it up there to see his dogs.


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

Out of all the sports herding is my last concern, so if i dont get to do it with this dog its not really a big deal.

The main thing I want to do with this dog is schutzhund and then everything else will come secondary. My main focus will be just schutzhund (might do a little agility on the side) until either we make it to SchH3 or if it no longer seems fun to do. Then after we stop schutzhund we will try training in another bite sport.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Sara, depending where you are in Ney York. You are in the big picture somewhat close to Esa Rasimus in Ontario Canada. He has outstanding Beaucerons. In fact one of his females went top Ring I in Canada this past season. He has bred dogs that are in sar and he has educated himself in France to keep up his knowledge of Beaucerons. He is also a sport protection freak.
> 
> Not only do his beaucerons work well. They are very good to look at. Well put together.
> 
> ...


 Sara, I made a big error with my recomendation.

You should contact Deb Skinner and I am sure she can help you with your beauceron needs.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

So far I have done herding, flyball, agility, rally-o, dock diving, and schutzhund with my rescue Corso. I don't regret it, I have learned something new with each activity and in some cases knowledge from one was applicable to another so we have benefited in that way. 

You will find as some mentioned behaviours wanted in one sport may not be good in another, which poses training issues and limits your possible success. For example, we started in Sch first and did a lot of focus work with the dog maintaining eye contact while walking with me. That's a bad thing in agility. You want a dog that to a degree works independently and takes directions from you while he looks forward at the obstacles, not trying to maintain eye contact with you while running into things. I could teach him to do that, but then his focus in Sch would suffer. 

The style of jumping in flyball is fast and flat, where in agility the dog needs to be able to adjust his stride and take the jumps in all sorts of manners. We did flyball first and found that when we started doing agility jumps, he had a tendency to rush and flat out his jumping. 

However, training flyball has given us skills and methods that have helped us training the Sch retrieve over a jump. Training the A frame agility style with value to maintaining contacts has helped us keep him safer from possible injury as before he would be very aggressive with jumping off the a frame. 

You pick your battles.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Thanks, will do.
> 
> Out here diesel is higher than supreme!
> 
> Kellie


Yes, here too $4-$4.29/gal. However, diesel engines are more efficient. For instant my vw golf gets 43mpg and isn't broken in yet. It can pull a dog trailer or small trailer w/o problem and hauling and pulling doesn't affect the mileage to the extreme of a gas engine. My 1 ton dodge dually gets 20mpg due to a few mods. At idle with the ac running for dogs they sip the fuel. I grew up around diesels so I sort of favor them. Family owns a trucking business.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

A friend of mine just had Beauceron pups out of a Schutzhund II male. I met a pup out of that litter and he's a fireball, but unfortunately, all of that litter are spoken for and approaching five months at this point. They're out of Woodlake, California. There are some nice Beaucerons out there if you are patient. Not a lot with Schutzhund titles, but I don't think many are even tried in that sport. 

I'm currently playing around in Schutzhund with my two year-old Beauceron. It's a lot of fun! I never did any bitework with her when she was younger, but the club members like her drive, so we might keep trying that out. The breed can be independent and require some time to mature. Good luck in your search!


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> A friend of mine just had Beauceron pups out of a Schutzhund II male. I !


Hi Claire,

Sounds like you are having fun with your pooch \\/

Which dog has the Schutzhund II ? and who is the female? Very intriguing !

Kellie


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I recommend doing one thing especially if your a n00b. Very often there is lotso bleed over from one thing to the other. 
At our club if your a n00b we dont like you going off and training elsewhere and coming back and not being able to explain what and how your dog was worked it makes a hodgepodge and wasts our time and ends up ****ing up your dog program.
Now if your taking someone with who can help to dovetail between who you are going to see and bring a explanation back so we know whats going on than maybe.
If people want to **** around with other stuff and dont know there ass from a hole in the ground and it ****s with our program we pretty much tell them to move along.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Hi Kellie


Yes, indeed, we are having fun. I am a novice and may not get anywhere, but my little Deja is great to work with and sees it all as a game. We're trying agility, too. I love the versatility of the breed.

Which dog has the Schutzhund II ? and who is the female? -

The dog is Dundee de'Lamouradie and the female is Azri du Chateau Rocher. Very nice litter. If I'd had the room I would have wanted one from that breeding.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

"The dog is Dundee de'Lamouradie and the female is Azri du Chateau Rocher." 

I thought it might be him after I sent the message 

He is a very nice dog. I met him here in AZ once. Nice to hear he has his II 

Kellie


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

If you are new to Beaucerons and want to see a lot of them in one place, I highly recommend visiting Karla Davis' kennel (Woodlake, CA). The last time, I visited she had at least 50 Beaucerons and you can really get a feel for the breed here in the States. Without traveling to France, I don't know of any other way to see so many Beaucerons at one place. She has both colors and many different ages, etc.

For instance, there was what was considered a huge turn-out for Eukanuba this year and I think the entry was 16 or 17 of the breed. I believe there were only 7 dogs entered at Westminster. Maybe 20+ dogs at the National Specialty in KY last year. 

I have 2 -- Rista O.V. who is 10 years old now (Avatar's mom) and a 5 mos old female, Finesse. A couple friends that help me breed the Beauces own a couple more each and live in Ramona, CA. You are welcome to visit us and we can get together and show you 7 Beaucerons between the 3 of us. 

The more you visit owners and breeders, the more you'll learn about the breed. Also, Avatar will be coming back to SoCal with his owner Tim Welch after the ring trial at the National d'Elevage and you can see him working at their club from about mid-June on. Their club is in Orange County and is www.ExtremeRingDogs.com 

There should be a decent turn out at the AKC "Mission Circuit" dog show in May in Pomona, CA See info at www.jbradshaw.com (May 27-30)

Here is video of the Silver Bay Dog Show at Del Mar, CA last month -- Beauceron Breed Ring. About 7 dog entry which is more than at most shows:

Sunday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0esdxz3Z4

Saturday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jALigDz3_CM



Claire, what SchH club are you training with? Mary Anne (owns Luc O.V. whose an Avatar son) is interested in SchH and lives part of the year in Santa Barbara. Not far from you right? So far she's done the championship thing and getting him ready for cd and cd-x, but has always loved Schutzhund since she owned Rotties.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Debbie Skinner said:


> If you are new to Beaucerons and want to see a lot of them in one place, I highly recommend visiting Karla Davis' kennel (Woodlake, CA). The last time, I visited she had at least 50 Beaucerons and you can really get a feel for the breed here in the States. Without traveling to France, I don't know of any other way to see so many Beaucerons at one place. She has both colors and many different ages, etc.


I've been to her kennel many times and I know she does not have that many. That's not very helpful to spread a rumor like that. She does have more Beaucerons than others, but that is because she really works to keep bloodlines going, and if you want bloodlines, you need more than one or two. They are well-cared for and get to run about the yard. She also takes back dogs that owners were not able to keep, and stands by her health guarantees, which means taking a Beauceron back from time to time. But... 50, I don't think so. Please, this is supposed to be a conflict free forum, and a comment like that does no good.




Debbie Skinner said:


> Here is video of the Silver Bay Dog Show at Del Mar, CA last month -- Beauceron Breed Ring. About 7 dog entry which is more than at most shows:
> 
> Sunday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0esdxz3Z4
> 
> Saturday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jALigDz3_CM


I'm not sure what dog shows with puppies has to do with the search for a schutzhund pup, but OK.


I work in Santa Barbara and live in Oxnard, so about an hour away. There are none in Santa Barbara, as far as I know.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I've been to her kennel many times and I know she does not have that many. That's not very helpful to spread a rumor like that. She does have more Beaucerons than others, but that is because she really works to keep bloodlines going, and if you want bloodlines, you need more than one or two. They are well-cared for and get to run about the yard. She also takes back dogs that owners were not able to keep, and stands by her health guarantees, which means taking a Beauceron back from time to time. But... 50, I don't think so. Please, this is supposed to be a conflict free forum, and a comment like that does no good.
> 
> I'm not sure what dog shows with puppies has to do with the search for a schutzhund pup, but OK.
> 
> ...


Why get defensive? It's not a rumor and I wasn't being negative. I am not judging as I've bought and sold dogs from large kennels for over 20 years including selling dogs to Karla. You are reading into my post way more than what I said and meant. I never questioned the health, care, animal husbandry, ethics of the breeder. 

I have been there many times over the past 20 years, and I was recommending a visit to meet a lot of dogs in one place in California. I sold Oscar, FRII to Karla and we took Sydney O.V. there twice and got 2 litters out of Oscar...the "A" and "B" year so 4 and 5 years ago I believe. Also, sold French import "Sage" a daughter of a FRIII. . Sold her Qualif, Belg import RCI I, Goliath CGF (son of Ce, FRIII) to Karla and imported several other for her over the years. 

You are saying it's impossible to have and develop a bloodline having only 1-2 dogs at my home...? I have 3 breeding Malinois at my home and so it's impossible to have a bloodline of working malinois...? I think it's well known that I have a distinct bloodline of both even though I don't own or outright house them all here to do it. Breeders have the freedom to run their breeding programs as they wish. That's the beauty of it.

Why recommend visiting dog shows? #1 if a dog doesn't have the nerve for the breed ring and doesn't act normal there, it's not a schutzhund candidate. I would never recommend training a dog in bite-work that is not a confident dog in the breed ring. Right now, it's where you will see more Beaucerons in the public than anywhere else. #2 Because other than Tim Welch working his dog in French Ring, I cannot recommend where to see Beaucerons working in protection sport at this time in California. Avatar won't be home until June though. Can you recommend where to see a Beauce working in protection sport? I've asked where in SoCal you are working your female in Schutzhund? What Club? A club in Oxnard? 1 hour away is fine for my friend to drive from Santa Barbara. I was thinking that Sarah is in California too. Maybe I'm mistaken.  

Other breeders that I know of in the USA (there are others and they are listed on the ABC web page I think): 

I know Kathy Holbert trains detection and tracking and S&R in WV and breeds on occasion. I think she has 5 Beauces.

There's a large breeder in MO - Susan Bass who shows her dogs a lot also trains service dogs for a living.

I am sure that any of these breeders would welcome visitors to their facilities and do so all the time.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm not getting defensive, but thought I might as well speak up since you are making a claim about someone who is not even on this forum to respond. She doesn't have that many dogs, by the way, so it is a rumor, and I do believe she welcomes people to visit.

The original poster isn't from California, so I wasn't trying to tell her about just dogs here in CA, just wanted to tell her about the only litter I know of out of a schutzhund titled parent. That's why I think the show videos were unnecessary. None of the dogs in the video are schutzhund titled, so I'm not sure how it applies. I appreciate your point of view on the matter, however.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so you are saying that that Debbie is lying when she stated that the last time she was there at the kennel, that she thinks there were at least 50? (which probably included a couple litters of pups)

what a stupid argument...

how many is the most you have seen there, including pups?

10-20-30-40-50 ?

If I say someone has at least 50 dogs, that is not an insult. It is just a estimate of the number of dogs at the kennel.


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

I just wanted to say that no im not in cali, I live in New York. So even though I would *love *to take a trip out there to see some dogs at this time I cant. But if I do end up getting a dog from a breeder out there (which I most likely will) I do plan on taking a drive out there to pick up the pup as im not a big fan of shipping dogs, so hopefully I can visit some of these places that are being recommended at that time.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I'm not getting defensive, but thought I might as well speak up since you are making a claim about someone who is not even on this forum to respond. She doesn't have that many dogs, by the way, so it is a rumor, and I do believe she welcomes people to visit.
> 
> The original poster isn't from California, so I wasn't trying to tell her about just dogs here in CA, just wanted to tell her about the only litter I know of out of a schutzhund titled parent. That's why I think the show videos were unnecessary. None of the dogs in the video are schutzhund titled, so I'm not sure how it applies. I appreciate your point of view on the matter, however.


I was making a statement based on the amount of dogs at the kennel the last time I visited. If she is down to 30-40 adult dogs now, is that bad in your opinion? I sure wasn't judging, but instead recommending that it would be educational to visit and see a lot of the breed to help decide if the breed is the breed for "you" (generic you). Members of WDF, mention non-members kennels and suppliers all the time. I know you are new and this is very non-conflict and a not abrasive post as are my others.

I was recommending the visit after seeing the Dundee pup of Karla's at the Silver Bay Show. Karla asked me over to her rv to show me him as she was very proud of this particular pairing of dogs. She knew I would appreciate his character as he was bold and self assured. His mother's pedigree contained working line imports that I got for her (Qualif, Oscar..). Also, "Dundee" the male she used is from the same Belgian breeder as Qualif, which is interesting for those of us who follow peds and are breeders.

If she doesn't have that many now it's her choice just as it's everyone's choice to own or not own dogs. 

When selecting a dog for protection sport, you need to see the bloodline's temperament and whether the dogs being produced from the kennel are successful in protection sport. Again I do not know where any Beaucerons are being worked in Protection Sport in this country at the moment. This is why I was referring to dog shows where one can observe temperament and the breed as a whole. An experienced person can observe and see a lot about dogs in a public setting such as a dog show i.e. is the dog space sensitive? noise sensitive? uncomfortable in buildings? slippery floors? shy with people/dogs? aggressive with people/dogs? etc. An unexperienced person will probably see nothing or misinterpret what is happening at a dog show, breeder's home or at a training club or trial.

If you train in Schutzhund with your dog why not say where you are training? All Beauceron fans love to hear about dogs being worked. My friend would love to stop by whatever club or training group it is and talk Beaucerons.

The highest level, my Ombres Valeureux Beauceron puppies have accomplished is SchH III and FRIII in protection sport and that being 2 males. There's been a few police dogs, prison dogs, and lower level (SchI, FRIs) not counting the bhs, or tts of course as those are not protection titles. Overall, there are not many Beaucerons being titled in protection sport in the USA from my kennel or any kennel. And then there's my mals..well that's whole nother story :smile: My malinois keep me sane and the Beaucerons keep me humble.  

I would never suggest that a Beauceron is the first choice or easy breed to train in protection sports. Just being honest and I'd never want to mislead anyone.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Sarah Best said:


> I just wanted to say that no im not in cali, I live in New York. So even though I would *love *to take a trip out there to see some dogs at this time I cant. But if I do end up getting a dog from a breeder out there (which I most likely will) I do plan on taking a drive out there to pick up the pup as im not a big fan of shipping dogs, so hopefully I can visit some of these places that are being recommended at that time.


If you are in NY maybe check out the Canadians? Much closer than California. Also, Kathy Holbert www.chiodokennels.com in WV.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> so you are saying that that Debbie is lying when she stated that the last time she was there at the kennel, that she thinks there were at least 50? (which probably included a couple litters of pups)
> 
> what a stupid argument.


Aggressive git!

Take some time off Joby, and let some folks answer for themselves.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Sarah there is what I believe is a good working breeding being done this week in France. 

Fred Aubry (south of Paris) is using Avatar O.V. FRIII (of course he's a favorite to me) with a well bred female (French and Swiss working bloodlines). Avatar is at Fred's right now for the breeding which will make pups due in May if all goes well and ready in July. I'll post in the puppy section all the details. I am hoping to get a female from this combo. 

I think Barons Noire de la Foppa (near Paris) is using Avatar with another female too soon. There was another breeding lined up..

You can get this kind of news on working line breedings and other news off of the French Working Beauceron site "Mamba". French speaking only, but you can use a translator..not perfect but helps.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Sarah Best said:


> I just wanted to say that no im not in cali, I live in New York. So even though I would *love *to take a trip out there to see some dogs at this time I cant. But if I do end up getting a dog from a breeder out there (which I most likely will) I do plan on taking a drive out there to pick up the pup as im not a big fan of shipping dogs, so hopefully I can visit some of these places that are being recommended at that time.


I pm'd someone out East about my friends who have 4 Beauceron and live within an hour of the City, they are in NJ. I do not recall if this was Sara or not.

Anyway, they are more than happy to have prospective Beauceron owners out to their farm to meet the dogs and talk "Beauceron" . All of their dogs are imported herding lines dog. They do not breed. They just love the breeed and like to share that with other people.

Their website is www.herdingbeaucerons.com . 

If you haven't met many Beauceron, it would be great for you to go see their dogs. It would give you an excellent idea of what the higher drive Beauceron is like to live with  LOL

Good luck to you!

Kellie


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

Debbie Skinner said:


> The highest level, my Ombres Valeureux Beauceron puppies have accomplished is SchH III and FRIII in protection sport and that being 2 males. There's been a few police dogs, prison dogs, and lower level (SchI, FRIs) not counting the bhs, or tts of course as those are not protection titles. Overall, there are not many Beaucerons being titled in protection sport in the USA from my kennel or any kennel. And then there's my mals..well that's whole nother story :smile: My malinois keep me sane and the Beaucerons keep me humble.
> 
> I would never suggest that a Beauceron is the first choice or easy breed to train in protection sports. Just being honest and I'd never want to mislead anyone.


Im curious, is the lack of tittles because there just arent enough people going with this breed for protection sports or because this breed just isnt really meant for protection sports?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Sarah Best said:


> Im curious, is the lack of tittles because there just arent enough people going with this breed for protection sports or because this breed just isnt really meant for protection sports?


Most breeders are not breeding for working drives and stable, strong working temperaments worldwide. This has gone on for many generations so most of the working genetics have been lost. 

Many, many working folks love the look of the Beauceron as it is a big, physically strong impressive dog and looks like it's a candidate for working. At first glance the breed seems to be a great candidate. However, right now most have the look, but not the character and drives. 

If I had "Avatars" I could sell them all day long to ringers and schutzhund, police folks. However, he's the rare Beauceron and I am not going to misrepresent and say "get an Avatar pup and you'll have a FRIII prospect". 

The breed overall does not have a good work ethic and nerve base. Therefore, imo it's very important to be very selective when breeding, but again it has not been possible to get consistent working prospects from any of the "working" lines ](*,) and there are just a few of us in North America trying along with just a few breeders in Europe. We are probably in the 5-10% of total breeders now. 

Anyone that tells you it's because the breed just isn't worked is pretending. They are not being worked because most cannot work. I don't think you will find many knowledgeable working folks that will continue with a dog that "doesn't have it" for the work. It doesn't fly with any of us that "oh, you need to know the breed" .. "you must wait until it grows up as it's immature until 3-4 yrs old".. "or, you just don't know how to work a Beauceron"... Well, not many of us know how to work a dog that doesn't work. That takes a very special trainer indeed and normally you can never find out where they train or see a video of their dogs working. As you can see in 20 years I've heard all the reasons why dogs don't work.

Also, if I could produce dogs with high hunt and retrieve I could get detection homes for them all day long as well. 

The reason the breed is "rare" in the working circles is because most won't work and if tried are washed out.

Most are bred and owned because they are "novel" or "show dogs" and not working candidates. 

For me it's a project breed to try to improve and I've been in the breed for 20 years and been to France many times. I've owned some of the best and produced a few of the best "working" ones so I do not say any of this lightly. 

working = protection work for this discussion.


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

Thank you very more for the information 
So, even though Im not to concerned with having a really high ranking protection sport dog, would it be in my best interest to go with another breed? 
I do love what I have seen/heard about Beaucerons but at this time I would like a Schutzhund prospect and if a Beauceron just wouldnt be right for that I am willing to wait until i want a dog for a different sport to own one of these dogs.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

[QUOTE
working = protection work for this discussion.[/QUOTE]

This is true for herding as well, I think.

Add to that, the commitment of time, energy, $ and other resources is huge for any "sport" . 

I know, for me, it is sometimes disheartening to have worked SO hard, and put in so much effort,to watch other handlers/breeds shoot past because their dogs are ultimately more suited for the work.](*,)

For the Beauceron, it truly is more about the journey...along the long and winding road:mrgreen:


Kellie


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Yes, I think these are all factors. Getting the drives, getting the drivey ones into the right homes, and putting in the time and money all play a part. But, I do have to say that I'm optimistic that there are working ones out there, and the breed still retains many of the things about them that make them great. I'm sold, for sure, but then again, they are first and foremost my companions and the work comes second. It is something we do to bond more closely and have fun. More serious work-minded folks might have an easier time with another breed, there's no denying that.

Debbie, it would be premature for me to recommend any specific club for anyone. I'm just a guest getting to know a few. She can always go to http://www.southwestschutzhund.com/ and look into them herself. I sure won't deny that I'm a newbie and I'll never claim to have the answers on this matter.

Yes, Kellie, I've seen videos of those herding Beaucerons out there in NJ and they're very impressive.

BTW, thanks, Maggie, I completely agree. I'm certainly not going to claim I am in any position to know the magic number of dogs a kennel should have, but I just wished to avoid a one-dimensional representation of anybody. C'est la vie, it's going to happen.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Sarah Best said:


> Thank you very more for the information
> So, even though Im not to concerned with having a really high ranking protection sport dog, would it be in my best interest to go with another breed?
> I do love what I have seen/heard about Beaucerons but at this time I would like a Schutzhund prospect and if a Beauceron just wouldnt be right for that I am willing to wait until i want a dog for a different sport to own one of these dogs.


The best breeds for SchH statistically are Mals and GSDs (or GSDs and Mals). If really titling a dog in SchH is your goal and you are new to the sport these are the best choices imo. I should say Dutchies too (I sort of lump them in with the Mals). 

If you want to try a Beauceron, I suggest to try and find one with the best working pedigree possible. The best chance would be a repeat litter from a pair that have already produced the quality of dogs that you want i.e. dogs that can work. Also, a male would be your best bet if you want to go with a Beauce as there are more that will work. 

If you have a "plan b" sport for the dog such as agility or going for the Schutzhund (tracking and obedience titles) if the dog doesn't have the bite drive for the SchH I, II, or III, then I think try a Beauceron.


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

OK I think I might just go with a different breed for now as I would like a dog that could get a SchH3 title. 
Mals and GSDs are two of my four favorite breeds. I would love a mal but i dont know, they just seem a little to wild for me right now. Although Ive never really interacted with one before to get a real understanding of the breed. 

I was thinking more along the lines of a working rottweiler. I know the breed, they've been my favorite breed for as long as I can remember and they just seem like they would fit my lifestyle and the sport(s) I would like to compete in.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sarah Best said:


> OK I think I might just go with a different breed for now as I would like a dog that could get a SchH3 title.
> Mals and GSDs are two of my four favorite breeds. I would love a mal but i dont know, they just seem a little to wild for me right now. Although Ive never really interacted with one before to get a real understanding of the breed.
> 
> I was thinking more along the lines of a working rottweiler. I know the breed, they've been my favorite breed for as long as I can remember and they just seem like they would fit my lifestyle and the sport(s) I would like to compete in.


Sounds like some good thinking some clubs don't want to mess with alternate breeds. When I started in Schutzhund The Rottweiler and Mal were considered alternate breeds and still are in some clubs might be worth looking into.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

But said:


> this probably should move to another thread...but I have no clue how to do that:-k
> 
> Claire,
> 
> ...


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

It could be that I'm just an optimist in general, but I think it is mainly because my experiences with Beaucerons have been positive so far. My very first Beauceron has impressed me a lot. She has been absolutely fearless since the day I got her. She's so darn eager and busy and just looking for a job to do. Perhaps if I see more of them I will run into others that aren't so enthusiastic. Not saying my dog is perfect, but I enjoy that she is game for everything I ask of her.

I also liked how I was able to put her in a pen of sheep and she just knew what to do and passed an instinct test without any training. I think a lot of Beaucerons could do that, too. There's an instinct there that hasn't been lost and it is really a sight to see.

You could say that Beaucerons are more generalists than other breeds, which puts them at a disadvantage when competing with specialists in any field, but overall they are just plain exciting to me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Aggressive git!
> 
> Take some time off Joby, and let some folks answer for themselves.


she did...was just trying to figure out where all the bickering started...and why....take a break from stalking me


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

My friend found youtube video of Dundee, SchH II that Claire recommended the litter. It's interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg8sjtdYaH4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7xS4V5Qfo&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d92_Q-Ini7M&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kx2T0DNJs8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> she did...was just trying to figure out where all the bickering started...and why....take a break from stalking me


I know that particular group that show the Chateau Rocher dogs including the breeder do not like when we video the breed ring and put the footage on youtube. Many beaucerons are tail tucked and unhappy in the ring. I think she didn't like me putting the footage up on WDF because she kept saying that the show footage wasn't relevant to the discussion. However, the show footage gives one a very good idea of how the breed is. 

A lot of "pet owners" believe it's a huge negative for a breeder to keep a lot of dogs and since she's been in the breed now for what, about 3 years and known the breeder for about the same amount of time, she didn't like me mentioning it. Most Beauceron owners are pet people.

However, I've known the breeder for over 20 years and she's always had many dogs and used to have 3 breeds. I've imported dogs for her since the 1990s and we talk bloodlines often at the shows. I know a lot of dog breeders in the USA and Europe that keep large numbers of dogs.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

I also liked how I was able to put her in a pen of sheep and she just knew what to do and passed an instinct test without any training. I think a lot of Beaucerons could do that said:


> I am going to try my hardest to stay conflict free here.
> 
> Chasing sheep is not herding.](*,)
> 
> ...


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I want to mention that I believe the Beauceron temperament as seen at the shows here in the USA can be seen in France as well. It's a breed problem and not a particular "bloodline". If I was showing my dog(s) in France and videoing it would be much the same. I've been to several shows in France and also Luxemburg and been ringside watching the breed. Also, to watch the Tervs in the ring in France makes me sick. Anyone can search youtube for Beauceron show vides and see much the same.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I know that particular group that show the Chateau Rocher dogs including the breeder do not like when we video the breed ring and put the footage on youtube. Many beaucerons are tail tucked and unhappy in the ring. I think she didn't like me putting the footage up on WDF because she kept saying that the show footage wasn't relevant to the discussion. However, the show footage gives one a very good idea of how the breed is.


That's true that I don't like being videoed and put on Youtube, but it is because I don't appreciate being on camera. I am quite self conscious about that, actually, and have more fun at the shows where I am not videoed because I can relax and enjoy myself more. If I could afford a handler I would do that so I don't have to be on TV. I prefer to be more behind the scenes. Nobody ever asked me if I wanted to be filmed.

As for the puppies looking shy, sure, maybe so. The viewers will never know the context behind the videos, and I'm not sure I care the waste my time bringing that up. You'll never see my Deja looking shy. And the specials from the two different kennels look equally at ease to me.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> I am going to try my hardest to stay conflict free here.
> 
> Chasing sheep is not herding.](*,)
> Kellie


I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I know chasing sheep isn't herding. I know there is much, much more that goes into it, and a quick instinct evaluation is not going to show how far that particular dog is going to go to trial. My point was that I do believe the Beauceron retains more herding instinct than other continental herding breeds I've seen, such as many shepherds. They know to gather the sheep, get them away from the edges of the pen, and bring them to the instructor. I expected the Beaucerons, particularly mine, to just chase the sheep in a random way and stress them out. Not so. We watched Picardies doing the same thing, and my overall impression was that the Beaucerons were gentler and more purposeful with the sheep.

I'm also not saying the Beauceron is perfect or trying to mislead anyone. There must be a reason that we all stay with the breed. That reason is what I'm talking about. It is hard to put into words.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> That's true that I don't like being videoed and put on Youtube, but it is because I don't appreciate being on camera. I am quite self conscious about that, actually, and have more fun at the shows where I am not videoed because I can relax and enjoy myself more. If I could afford a handler I would do that so I don't have to be on TV. I prefer to be more behind the scenes. Nobody ever asked me if I wanted to be filmed.
> 
> As for the puppies looking shy, sure, maybe so. The viewers will never know the context behind the videos, and I'm not sure I care the waste my time bringing that up. You'll never see my Deja looking shy. And the specials from the two different kennels look equally at ease to me.


It's a public dog show and I film all the Beaucerons that are in the ring. It has nothing to do with who is on the other end of the leash. Many people learn a lot by watching these videos and are very interested in seeing the dogs being shown. For me it's about the dogs and the breed. I know many people take it personally if they own a dog that acts timid and get defensive as if it's their child when you mention that the dog is scared and stressed out. 

The video is unedited and every dog is filmed, and there is no commentary. Nothing is taken out of context. There is just the names of the dogs added in "type" within the video.

It's a breed ring and if one reads the first part of the standard: _"The Beauceron should be discerning and confident. He is a dog with spirit and initiative, wise and fearless with no trace of timidity."_ This is the AKC Breed Standard: http://www.akc.org/breeds/beauceron/index.cfm It is a shame if, during judge education for the breed, judges are being miseducated and not following this very important part of the standard. 

When does a dog stop being a puppy? Endine is a 2 year old that you own and showed that weekend finished her championship at the show correct? Would you still consider her a puppy? She's been shown many times in order to become a Champion. She is the same age ("E" year 2009) just like my Eo O.V. (the special that won both days). 

To the inexperienced eye that doesn't know dogs and temperament, I guess its all apples and apples, right?

For me it's very important to speak honestly about a breed when someone is asking for information on the breed. First thing a beginner must do is be open to receive information and learn w/o personalizing everything. When I speak about a breed or dog's faults it is not a personal attack on the owner or breeder. It's a critique and evaluation from experience. I do the same thing to each dog in my kennel all the time. If a dog is ugly or shy or has no drive, and it's from my breeding, I speak true about it. I never think that if I own or produce "a" dog that doesn't measure up it means that "I don't measure up" or that it means that I'm ugly or lazy, etc. 

Please try to understand that it's not personal about "your baby" or "attacking the breed that you love". Speaking and talking the truth is important if there is to be improvement.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> For me it's very important to speak honestly about a breed when someone is asking for information on the breed. First thing a beginner must do is be open to receive information and learn w/o personalizing everything. When I speak about a breed or dog's faults it is not a personal attack on the owner or breeder. It's a critique and evaluation from experience. I do the same thing to each dog in my kennel all the time. If a dog is ugly or shy or has no drive, and it's from my breeding, I speak true about it. I never think that if I own or produce "a" dog that doesn't measure up it means that "I don't measure up" or that it means that I'm ugly or lazy, etc.
> 
> Please try to understand that it's not personal about "your baby" or "attacking the breed that you love". Speaking and talking the truth is important if there is to be improvement.


 
Amen---that's goes for any discipline in the dog world. You can replace "breed" with PSD,sport or PPD


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Debbie Skinner said:


> It's a public dog show and I film all the Beaucerons that are in the ring. It has nothing to do with who is on the other end of the leash.


OK, that's true that a dog show is a public place, but most new handlers cringe when I mention that I always end up on youtube. Do I look nervous in front of a camera? You bet! It take out the joy of showing and, no, I don't mean that you are singling me out, but it still seems like poor form to me. I actually tried to believe it was for the love of the breed once but, when I came on this forum for the first time and looked up Beauceron posts dated from before I joined, I found one titled "FOR A LAUGH" that linked to a clip with me at one of my very first shows! That illuminated the nature of the filming for me. And no, my dog's tail was not tucked in that clip, it was actually raised high in the air to make sure her character couldn't be questioned due to a few minutes of footage.

Endine, well that's very true that she does look like she doesn't enjoy showing as much, but her story is a long one, and there is a reason for her behavior. She has come a long way, and is a happy dog in other areas, which really tells me it is not bad genes. It is easy to judge without the backstory. Be my guest. Sure, shy Beaucerons exist, but I wouldn't spend my time with one I thought was shy by nature.

Anyhow, it is your choice to post clips of me all you'd like, but that doesn't mean I have to appreciate it.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I know chasing sheep isn't herding. I know there is much, much more that goes into it, and a quick instinct evaluation is not going to show how far that particular dog is going to go to trial. My point was that I do believe the Beauceron retains more herding instinct than other continental herding breeds I've seen, such as many shepherds. They know to gather the sheep, get them away from the edges of the pen, and bring them to the instructor. I expected the Beaucerons, particularly mine, to just chase the sheep in a random way and stress them out. Not so. We watched Picardies doing the same thing, and my overall impression was that the Beaucerons were gentler and more purposeful with the sheep.
> 
> I'm also not saying the Beauceron is perfect or trying to mislead anyone. There must be a reason that we all stay with the breed. That reason is what I'm talking about. It is hard to put into words.


LOL..GENTLER??? Probably about the same. I have worked a Picardy also:neutral:

The first time I trialed my dog I was told "we are going to stay here and watch your dog kill a sheep" I had never seen these people before, but that was their previous experience of the Beauceron. My dog has never been a savager, but I have heard stories of dogs (Beaucerons and other herders) that are.

By painting a "rosy" picture of what the Beauceron is like you ARE misleading people. 

Kellie
(just poured her Kool-Aid down the drain)


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Really, Kelly? Wow! None of the Beaucerons I saw do the test showed aggression to the sheep. I think I saw about ten that day. Some of the Picardys had to be restrained. I didn't mean to paint a rosy picture, but I had honestly never seen or heard of them acting that way. Sorry. If you've had experiences like that then, by all means, share them.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> Really, Kelly? Wow! None of the Beaucerons I saw do the test showed aggression to the sheep. I think I saw about ten that day. Some of the Picardys had to be restrained. I didn't mean to paint a rosy picture, but I had honestly never seen or heard of them acting that way. Sorry. If you've had experiences like that then, by all means, share them.


I'll tell you what Claire:

spend the next 5 years doing weekly herding training with a Beauceron, and then we will talk.

There are ways to make dogs look good, even if they aren't. 

I will not share horror stories about other people's dogs.[-( After all of the ruckus over the Youtube vidoes, you should be able to appreciate that. I have no such stories to tell about my dogs. 

I'll give you a "C" for your effort of trying to back me into a corner, though.:-o

Kellie


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

That's fair, Kellie. I wasn't trying to back you into a corner. I honestly want to hear what you have to say. I also appreciate your not sharing stories of other people's dogs (I would never have wanted names to be mentioned). I think that's the best way to go about things.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> That's fair, Kellie. I wasn't trying to back you into a corner. I honestly want to hear what you have to say. I also appreciate your not sharing stories of other people's dogs (I would never have wanted names to be mentioned). I think that's the best way to go about things.



Did you mean to say that NONE of the Beauceron had to be restrained?

That may be an even bigger issue...low/no drive Beauceron? OH DEAR! 

Kellie


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> OK, that's true that a dog show is a public place, but most new handlers cringe when I mention that I always end up on youtube. Do I look nervous in front of a camera? You bet! It take out the joy of showing and, no, I don't mean that you are singling me out, but it still seems like poor form to me. I actually tried to believe it was for the love of the breed once but, when I came on this forum for the first time and looked up Beauceron posts dated from before I joined, I found one titled "FOR A LAUGH" that linked to a clip with me at one of my very first shows! That illuminated the nature of the filming for me. And no, my dog's tail was not tucked in that clip, it was actually raised high in the air to make sure her character couldn't be questioned due to a few minutes of footage.
> 
> Endine, well that's very true that she does look like she doesn't enjoy showing as much, but her story is a long one, and there is a reason for her behavior. She has come a long way, and is a happy dog in other areas, which really tells me it is not bad genes. It is easy to judge without the backstory. Be my guest. Sure, shy Beaucerons exist, but I wouldn't spend my time with one I thought was shy by nature.
> 
> Anyhow, it is your choice to post clips of me all you'd like, but that doesn't mean I have to appreciate it.


Again not about "you". I video the dogs when my dog is competing. 

Please stop bashing my motives for videoing the Beaucerons that my dogs are competing against. Again it's not correct at all for you to say my motives are not for the best interest of the breed. 

The truth about the breed is the truth. I will never misrepresent the breed to someone that is specifically asking about the Beauceron and her chances of getting a SchH III prospect Beauceron pup. 

I have always told you how well Deja looked and encouraged you from day one. I really think you are purposely making things up at this point. You cannot say that I ever said anything but encouraging words to you when you are showing and congratulated you and always greeted you. Please dispute this if you like?

I have no idea what your are talking about regarding "for a laugh". Did I post it? If it was a video of Beaucerons, are you sure it was about "you". Is it always about you personally?

The temperament description in the standard leaves no doubt that the "bare minimum" standard of temperament is a "confident, fearless dog". All others have disqualifying temperament. Again the breed has lost a lot of qualities over the generations and anyone new to the breed and dogs of course would be unaware of this. This is not a person attack when I say the truth about the breed. 

If you have such a low threshhold, when someone calls you out on misrepresenting the breed, then you will probably feel more comfortable on a Beauceron only forum or in a group of Beauceron owners where you can talk how great and talented and versatile the breed is and it is the best, etc. However, most people on WDF are seeking knowledge and this is the very reason I joined the forum. 

You continue to get off topic and try to make everything personal. It's not productive at all and has nothing to do with this thread regarding the breed's suitability for protection sports (the whys and why nots).


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Wow Claire talk about taking something out of context. I found the video links at:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/beaucerons-akc-showing-laugh-o-14410/

The reason it's titled "for a laugh" is because I'm posting a "conformation/beauty" show in the Video section where I and others normally post the Protection sport "matcho" stuff. If you go through the vids you'll see a ton of biting videos. It's not knocking you or Beaucerons, I'm joking around because it's conformation showing. If you bothered to read the other posts where Candy (I miss her) was joking with me about funny to see me out of sweat pants and not on the training field you would realize. As you can see I was not videoing as I was one of the "amateur" handlers out there with everyone else showing mine and friends pups. I gave everyone credit and said something about Cograts "Dillon". No, my dog didn't win at that show and I posted the vids of everyone. Geeze. ](*,)

Here is the entire post:
Beaucerons AKC Showing..for a laugh! )
Absolutely nothing to do with working dogs for a change. A Beauceron owner that was ring side videoed these and sent them to me. This is the Beauceron conformation ring on Sunday Feb 28 Silver Bay Kennel Club, Del Mar, CA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY2d6FaPmQE Emil “Luc” O.V. 10mos puppy male – (Sire: Avatar O.V. x Dam: Bijou) handled by Perry Payson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB9rJSXTyE0 Eo O.V. 12 month old male in Bred by (Leo “Uscar” O.V, 2009 Westminster BOB. x Bijou) handled by me 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g1mCEJ_Cio Eo O.V. & "Luc" Emil O.V. together

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CvFIoVrk-s 6mos puppy female (merle) handled by breeder Karla Davis (kennel name Chateau Rocher) – went Winner’s bitch each day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypEZf84QgAk Claire (sorry forgot her name) with her merle bitch - I believe entered in Open bitch. bred by Karla Davis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxBL5cUMLEQ Bred by bitches – me with Evette (gay tail L ..I entered her to support the entry) & Karla Davis and her female merle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nAAMvIHpng Carol Larimer (she owns a Beauce but didn't enter at this show. She's helping out by handling) handling Karla’s bred by winner and then Claire with her female and then Karla with the puppy bitch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01x3krr5R7s Perry Payson with Dillenger du Chateau Rocher (bred by Karla Davis, 2010 Westminster BOB), me with Luc, Karla with 6 mos puppy bitch. 

"Dillon" won the breed "Best of Breed" Luc got Best of Winners with a 3 point major and Karla's 6mos female got Winner's Bitch, BOO for a 3 point major.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

You have been kind enough in person, I'll grant you that. But, like I said, I dislike the videos and I already stated that the reason I dislike them is not because it is "about me." Not sure what else you want me to say on the matter without "going off topic" as you put it.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> You have been kind enough in person, I'll grant you that. But, like I said, I dislike the videos and I already stated that the reason I dislike them is not because it is "about me." Not sure what else you want me to say on the matter without "going off topic" as you put it.


Debbie Baker videoed those that you are unhappy about (well the latest that you are complaining about). She shows Karla's dogs and owns several dogs of Karla's. I don't get it. I'm not the only one videoing. She posted these as public youtube and sent them to me to and to others. I'm sure she wasn't trying to hurt your feelings either. It's nothing personal. A lot of people love to see Beaucerons and they are rare and many people can't get to the shows and really appreciate watching the videos. I don't think anyone is paying attention to the other end of the leash. Many of the other people that are showing and don't have someone videoing love it that we video and send them the links. Please refrain from watching or reading anything you dislike. It's very informational for most. Most owners and breeders are very happy to see their dogs in the ring by video at the shows they can't attend.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

My feelings are not hurt at all, though it is nice to have some voice in the matter. There is a difference between making a video and putting it on various forums, in my opinion. But, like I said, I don't think I can say anything more without being accused of taking things "personally" or "getting off topic." ](*,)


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> You have been kind enough in person, I'll grant you that. But, like I said, I dislike the videos and I already stated that the reason I dislike them is not because it is "about me." Not sure what else you want me to say on the matter without "going off topic" as you put it.


Hey, what you see in person is "me". If you do something I "dislike" rest assured that I may disagree, but won't go on a personal attack and rant on a forum. It's normal to have differences of opinions and for me it's a matter of self control to just realize people all think differently and not consider it a personal attack. Most people on this forum have a lot more experience than you do so it's not normal for someone with very little dog experience to think they know it all about reading dogs, and evaluating a breed, training, and thinking they know what other breeders are doing and thinking, etc. It's just better to know when you don't know and lack experience. You misjudge me and my intentions as well as misreading the breed, but that's to be expected as you've known both of us for about the same amount of time...what 3 years and very limited? You have a lot to learn.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

I don't know what is not normal about sharing someone's experiences. Isn't that what forums are all about? I may not have that much experience yet, but I don't see that as a reason that I may not offer my two cents in the same way as everyone else. We all have to start somewhere. I never said I know it all. I DO have a lot to learn, but so do people with much experience. I don't think it is good to ever stop learning.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I don't know what is not normal about sharing someone's experiences. Isn't that what forums are all about? I may not have that much experience yet, but I don't see that as a reason that I may not offer my two cents in the same way as everyone else. We all have to start somewhere. I never said I know it all. I DO have a lot to learn, but so do people with much experience. I don't think it is good to ever stop learning.


Yes, we are all learning, but everyone's 2 cents are not of equal value and most people don't just make suggestions w/o having knowledge on a subject. My 2 cents on hog hunting isn't worth the same as Don T. for example and I don't go on the hunting page or tracking or herding posts and start acting like I'm knowledgeable.

To say the Beauceron is a good prospect if you are looking for a SchH III prospect is not correct as there are other breeds that are better suited. 

I believe Kellie as she comes from a place of knowledge and experience when she talks about herding and Beaucerons. You observed what?.. 1 herding instinct test and then say the breed is good for herding? That is a ridiculous statement. 

To say that you can "tell" if the dog's behavior is genetic or environmental after being in dogs for 3 years is not likely. 

Also, to say what you have said about my intentions for videoing after knowing me in a very limited manner is incorrect also. You misinterpreted my post "for a laugh". 

I really do not think it's a good idea to mislead people about a breed due to your lack of knowledge and then when people with A LOT more experience than you correct you, for you then to go on a tangent of being picked on and not liking to be videoed at shows.

How can you give any information on a person's search for a SchH III prospect when you have never trained in the sport and have very limited experience in the breed you are talking about as well?


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

The OP said she was interested in a Beauce for schutzhund, so I told her of a litter out of a schutzhund-titled Beauceron that I knew about. How is that overstepping my bounds? She didn't mention at first about wondering which breeds would be best. I would agree that a Mal or Shepherd would be best. But, getting the vibe that she was set on the breed, I thought my response was reasonable.

As for the videos, please keep in mind that I didn't talk about why I didn't like being filmed until you posted that you thought it was because I don't like being caught with dogs with "bad character." I had to set the record straight on that, but it was you who brought up this conversation. 

Yes, Kellie has good knowledge of herding dogs. I never disputed that.

I suppose I must now go to the dollar store because my cents are not worth what they ought to be.:-k


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> The OP said she was interested in a Beauce for schutzhund, so I told h
> 
> I suppose I must now go to the dollar store because my cents are not worth what they ought to be.:-k


Claire,

I think you are missing the point a bit.

Most of the dog sports take YEARS to get to beginning competition level. YEARS of training, transporting, mental anguish (well maybe that is just me) and seminars, in some cases.

It is very different from "get a pup and have a CH by the time they are a year old" I know that there is a significant investment of time and energy, and I do not mean to lessen that.

If a person REALLY wants a Beauceron, and is willing to do "whatever" that is one thing. But someone who really wants to do X Dog Sport, most likely wants to have some success. With an "off" breed that success is very hard to come by. It doesn't mean that it cannot be done, nor does it mean that a person shouldn't try, if they want to invest the time and effort.

Another thing to consider, I speak here of herding, as I have NO knowledge of the entry fees for other sports, a 2 day herding trial...if I run Akiva on all 3 types of stock will cost around $270 in entry fees alone. In AKC you need 3 legs PER LEVEL to earn a title. Most of the trials are not a day's drive, so add all the other stuff in; gas, room, food etc. It is expensive!8-[

So, it isn't that your 2 cents isn't worth anything...it is more of a "you don't know enough to know what you don't know" And I do not mean that in a rude or malicious way.

I just asked for feedback in another thread..not knowing enough to know what I didn't know...but now I know:-k I think..LOL

Kellie


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> The OP said she was interested in a Beauce for schutzhund, so I told her of a litter out of a schutzhund-titled Beauceron that I knew about. How is that overstepping my bounds? She didn't mention at first about wondering which breeds would be best. I would agree that a Mal or Shepherd would be best. But, getting the vibe that she was set on the breed, I thought my response was reasonable.
> 
> As for the videos, please keep in mind that I didn't talk about why I didn't like being filmed until you posted that you thought it was because I don't like being caught with dogs with "bad character." I had to set the record straight on that, but it was you who brought up this conversation.
> 
> ...


The first show vids - I was answering a question by Joby and thanks for clarifying that it was about "you" as far as why you did not like the videos. The breeder has said many times to myself and friends that she doesn't like the youtube footage of her dogs acting timid in the ring. 

I posted these videos to show Beaucerons in a public setting. There are many, many vids on youtube showing much worse behavior with dogs cringing and practically spinning like a reining horse to get away from being handled. I put up footage of "better than average" behavior at a show of the breed. And it was the most recent video I had. Again the footage was not directed at you, but to educate those interested in the breed for work regarding the "typical" Beauceron temperament (worldwide). IMO, the breed is in trouble due to a deterioration of mental stability possibly due to the high percent of in-bred coefficient coupled with bad breeding choices (breeding for the show ring and not for character).

As for the videos 'for a laugh' (the ones you dug out of the wdf archive to try to discredit me regarding my reasons for filming my dogs in the breed ring along with the others competing) - once I bring it to your attention that you completely misrepresented that video thread and my intent, have you apologized to me? Acknowledged that you are "wrong"? ](*,)

Do you still not see that "for a laugh" part was pointed at me and because I was "dressed up" showing dogs at a beauty show and not training a malinois in sweats out on field? \\/

If you cannot admit when you don't know something or are wrong then you probably continue to give people misinformation. 

You are a school teacher, right? You teach your students and when they make a mistake you tell them and teach them. The student admits the error and continues on to learn. That is what I was trying to do for you.

If you ever want to learn something about the breed, dog behavior, nature vs nurture, training, etc. please come to one of us with experience and come with an open mind. The door is always open as I have a resilient character and do not take these things that you say personally. I know you inexperienced and a newbie. Good training and enjoy your lovely pets.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

I know that the laugh was not directed at me, but it was still disconcerting to come on to a forum with youtube video up that included me (notice, I did not say featured me, I never said I was the focus of it) and that title. You put up that footage of us to show to strangers, let them criticize our dogs and sat back and let them do it without ever saying anything to back us up. You never let me know such a post concerning me or dogs associated with me was even happening, and so I had no way to share my issues with it. Therein lies my problem with it. As such, I honestly cannot see the need to apologize for anything, and believe me, I am quick to apologize when the need arises.

Let's just recap here- All I said at first was that I knew of a schutzhund titled litter. Not overstepping the bounds of my knowledge, in my opinion. Anything I said after that was putting the record straight in response to a claim made about me or someone I know who is not here to respond. And I'm acting like a know-it-all? 

I did at one point weigh in on my optimism about the breed, but only when asked my opinion on the subject. I cannot find a post where I acted more knowledgeable than I am, or where I questioned anyone's knowledge or experience. If you honestly feel that I slighted your experience, then I'm sorry for that, but I am not sorry about setting the record straight on matters concerning me or my dogs. 

Thanks for saying good training. We have been having some great sessions recently.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I know that the laugh was not directed at me, but it was still disconcerting to come on to a forum with youtube video up that included me (notice, I did not say featured me, I never said I was the focus of it) and that title. You put up that footage of us to show to strangers, let them criticize our dogs and sat back and let them do it without ever saying anything to back us up. You never let me know such a post concerning me or dogs associated with me was even happening, and so I had no way to share my issues with it. Therein lies my problem with it. As such, I honestly cannot see the need to apologize for anything, and believe me, I am quick to apologize when the need arises.
> 
> Let's just recap here- All I said at first was that I knew of a schutzhund titled litter. Not overstepping the bounds of my knowledge, in my opinion. Anything I said after that was putting the record straight in response to a claim made about me or someone I know who is not here to respond. And I'm acting like a know-it-all?
> 
> ...


](*,)](*,) Maybe in time you will realize how you are misrepresenting the breed and me to others. One can only hope for growth. Posting video links, which are posted for public viewing instead of "private" on youtube taken at a public venue (dog show) on a "members only" forum for discussion is normal. 

You spend time trying to dig up "something or anything" because you are "mad" or "upset" and strike out with personal attacks. All I can say is if you stop personalizing everything regarding what anyone shows or says about dogs and the breed, you will be able to see things more clearly and grow. 

I keep saying it, but repetition is sometimes the key to learning...none of the videos, discussion of the breed or dogs weakness is about YOU. You are being very self-centered regarding the discussion of the breeds qualities and deficits. 

If someone enters a dog that is scared in the breed ring at a public show and someone mentions that the dog is timid, well that's an honest opinion. Again mentioning the "obvious" and having a discussion about it, is normal. I am not about to tell someone that watches a video of sketchy behavior that it is not sketchy behavior. If I watch a public video of a great working dog and someone says it's a great working dog, I would not disagree either. Again these are not "fur-babies" to be defended when they act poorly or are deficient in character.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Beauceron "youtube" videos of dog working in Schutzhund:


Carmen summer camp Bedea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXvAA3OLuvg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABFZQgx3GxA

IMO -- Very Good Female Beauceron -- suited mentally and physically for the work!!


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Beauceron "youtube" videos of dog working in Schutzhund:
> 
> 
> Carmen summer camp Bedea
> ...


Nice to see. That was more what I was expecting...but even though I spent a year just about every Friday night going to Schutzhund training, I don't feel like I know enough about it to be able to discern good from bad...but I am working on it:wink:

I only trained my dog (non Beauceron) in obedience. I never did bite work, my dog I was working wasn't mentally stable. I really love watching the bite work, though8)

Thanks

Kellie


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Nice to see. That was more what I was expecting...but even though I spent a year just about every Friday night going to Schutzhund training, I don't feel like I know enough about it to be able to discern good from bad...but I am working on it:wink:
> 
> I only trained my dog (non Beauceron) in obedience. I never did bite work, my dog I was working wasn't mentally stable. I really love watching the bite work, though8)
> 
> ...


I know what you mean. I'm sending my friend who owns an Avatar son to the club in Ventura Co (thanks to a fellow WDF member's private message giving me the name of the club near Oxnard). I do not think he has what it takes though..has a very stable and happy temperament and retrieve and loves the obedience, but I never saw enough love to bite. Weird and frustrating as he's an Avatar son and Avatar lives for protection work. He is "pretty" though and that sure didn't come from daddy either..or mom for that matter! :grin:


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> ....., but I am not sorry about setting the record straight on matters concerning me or my dogs... .


Did you ever say how many dogs the breeder has at her place? I think you skipped over the question and just tried to say 50 wasn't true, but you said "didn't think it was that many"??? I mention this to try to explain one more time how I have no problem with how many dogs someone has, but you seem to believe having a large number of dogs is a negative. 

To set the record straight and you can ask Karla about this as well. Karla went to France with me back in the 1990s when she got Jakarta. Ask her about when she went with Michel Valladon and me to the different Beauceron kennels. Ask her how many dogs were there and I'm talking adults. There were between 50-100 dogs at a couple of the Beauceron kennels and some bred multiple breeds. We purchased dogs and puppies at these kennels at the time and after visiting several times throughout the years. I am sure both of us will in the future as well. It's not about the quantity, but the quality and breeder's goals and worthiness of the bloodlines to improve the breed.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

There are multiple clubs in or near Ventura County. We are lucky that way. That website I posted has them all. I'm not sure why you keep asking me questions when you don't want to hear what I have to say as a newbie.:?:


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> There are multiple clubs in or near Ventura County. We are lucky that way. That website I posted has them all. I'm not sure why you keep asking me questions when you don't want to hear what I have to say as a newbie.:?:


Same 2 "Qs". Please do not misquote me.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sheesh.



How did the thread get to be about this?

Never mind. :lol:

Let's just return to the topic.

You could start another one to carry the second -- and third -- discussions.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Sarah Best said:


> OK I think I might just go with a different breed for now as I would like a dog that could get a SchH3 title.
> Mals and GSDs are two of my four favorite breeds. I would love a mal but i dont know, they just seem a little to wild for me right now. Although Ive never really interacted with one before to get a real understanding of the breed.
> 
> I was thinking more along the lines of a working rottweiler. I know the breed, they've been my favorite breed for as long as I can remember and they just seem like they would fit my lifestyle and the sport(s) I would like to compete in.


Check these vids out of female Rotties working in SchH (very nice) off another thread:

Rottweiler females - BST protection prep
Here are our 2 females at training today at the Phoenix Rottweiler Club
BST Protection prep work

Vaika vom Herrenholz
http://www.youtube.com/user/feuerhau.../1/lYmcOQWcBQI
Leyna vom Schwaiger Wappen
http://www.youtube.com/user/feuerhau.../0/IE11fIBL6F8
__________________
Jim Laubmeier
www.firehouserotts.com


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

"Pasco" French Ring III Rottweiler - In France

Video link on his page (middle):

http://www.rottweiler-lavalleedesglaciers.com/Pasco.html


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

As well as Uber v. Schloss Hexental, Uran du Detriot Lancaster (both can be found here) and Bodo v. Schloss Hexental (here)

Uran is a Pasco son.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Sheesh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have a drink or two or hit the bong once or twice you'll be able to follow and understand


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jessica Kromer said:


> As well as Uber v. Schloss Hexental, Uran du Detriot Lancaster (both can be found here) and Bodo v. Schloss Hexental (here)
> 
> Uran is a Pasco son.


Thanks for posting this as my friend, Mary Anne Morrison has some semen in storage from over 20 years ago and was very interested in Pasco. She is hoping to find the right female to purchase eventually. I wish I was up on Rotties more to know the bloodline. I remember seeing her dog in an old pix and he had almost as much leg as a Beauce and a longer nose than most the Rotts of today..I guess "ugly" by today's standard. I'll pass that on to her.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

I don't know how often Uran is bred, but Guy owns Uran's litter mate sister as well and does breed her. 

Her name is Ushi du Detroit Lancaster. She is a bit "doggy" rather than refined, but throws nice pups. The young male in my avatar pic is her son by Benno v Schloss Hexental. I really like how he has matured, even if it did take a while....


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## Esa Rasimus (Feb 24, 2010)

At the 2010 Nationale D'Elevage in France of the 173 Beaucerons that tested in temperament , 51 males and 42 females passed with an EXCELLENT rating, you do the math with how many less than desireable new examples were presented. 
In North America there are very very , did I say very ? few GOOD working and comformation examples being imported. Why we have the problem here is very plain and simple, France keeps back the best and so would I now. The truth of the matter is without actually knowing and trusting a breeder from Europe your chances are slimmer with finding a Beauceron for any sort of sport, let alone their forgotten natural herding abilities. Rural urbanization is playing a key role as to why every year less and less Beauceron owners practice the art of herding. 

Speaking of breeders in France with 50-100 Beauces in their kennels, to me it's excessive, but it's not my business. For me it's not rocket science, when a breeder with say 30-50 of their own dogs enters a conformation show, I'll make a "wild" guess who's coming home with truck loads of trophies and ribbons? Does that mean this kennel produces great dogs or does it now become a #'$ game for all parties ? Y'all decide. 

Sara don't get your hopes down, there are still some good Beaucerons out there but you REALLY have to do your homework.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Nice video of female Beauceron training in schH in Europe (obedience & protection):

http://www.sibary.net/video.htm


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