# The dog that wont out! What cha gonna do?



## Brian Anderson

One of the numero uno problems that I run into with people wanting to do bitework with their dog is the inability to teach the high drive dog to turn loose after he has latched on. Getting a dog that has a natural prepencity to bite is easy .. anyone can do it... getting him to let go when you say... not so easy. So I figure its a good topic for folks to learn from considering we get some people involved who actually know how to do it. 

so all you bite work trainers out there ... what you gonna do when the dog wont let go? Id like your answers to be directed at those that are still learning and or those who might be having this problem now. Use only real world experiences you have had ... if you havent had real world experience then ask questions. 

I realize there are a million variables but the approach is going to be similiar with most dogs (yes I said MOST dogs we all know they are all different)

Dave C weigh in on this please if you have a minute... I will dive in after I see some comments and questions.

you LE guys out there... does your dog out when you say or you gotta peel him off the bite? If so why dont you want him to out? Im asking the question so your answers can inform those who might not know. Howard wanna get ya some of this?


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## Howard Gaines III

Oh Brian...they WILL OUT!
OB 101
Pack Leaders Rule...:mrgreen:


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## Brian Anderson

Howard Gaines III said:


> Oh Brian...they WILL OUT!
> OB 101
> Pack Leaders Rule...:mrgreen:


How many times have I said those very words lol...yes sir! .....oh by the way...they DID out ! Lol


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## Haz Othman

Guy I know just recently picked up a real nice dog, several years old. The thing wouldnt out a ball or tug, so ofcourse the +Punishment commenced to get him outing. Dog turned on him held onto his forearm for a good lil bit and he ended up with about 30 stitches..


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## Brian Anderson

Haz Othman said:


> Guy I know just recently picked up a real nice dog, several years old. The thing wouldnt out a ball or tug, so ofcourse the +Punishment commenced to get him outing. Dog turned on him held onto his forearm for a good lil bit and he ended up with about 30 stitches..


thats the kinda shit that happens when a person doesnt know what they are doing ... lucky it was just that ... moral of the story: dont go out and by an adult dog that is more than you can handle


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## Matt Vandart

Brain do you mean when a previously outing dog just changes tack cos he is too wired?


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## Brian Anderson

Matt Vandart said:


> Brain do you mean when a previously outing dog just changes tack cos he is too wired?


any dog that won't out Matt... And I might be a lot of things but a brain ain't one of em lol


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## Phil Dodson

I initially start with a 30' line attached to a tree or solid post. and the handler holding the 6' line. Once the dog is on the sleeve biting we move out until the 30' line is putting considerable pressure on his neck. We proceed no further with bite training until the dog has achieved a clean out.

Next the handler moves around the quarry then when the command is given to release, he pulls hard toward himself causing the dog to be pulled against the 30' line as well as the frontal pressure forcing the dog to open his mouth and releasing. We continue this until the dog is releasing on command. There is a lot more to this , this is just abbreviated a lot.

All PSD's I train and have worked including my current partner are required to release on command.


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## Matt Vandart

Lol, sorry Brian!

I tend to teach it as a puppy with two tugs and such like. I did have quite a bit of difficulty with Sali but it came in the end, it was a waiting game.


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## Brian Anderson

Phil Dodson said:


> I initially start with a 30' line attached to a tree or solid post. and the handler holding the 6' line. Once the dog is on the sleeve biting we move out until the 30' line is putting considerable pressure on his neck. We proceed no further with bite training until the dog has achieved a clean out.
> 
> Next the handler moves around the quarry then when the command is given to release, he pulls hard toward himself causing the dog to be pulled against the 30' line as well as the frontal pressure forcing the dog to open his mouth and releasing. We continue this until the dog is releasing on command. There is a lot more to this , this is just abbreviated a lot.
> 
> All PSD's I train and have worked including my current partner are required to release on command.


thanks Phil.... we use a similar approach here.. yes it's more involved to be sure. But you laid out a nice framework for someone interested in doing the kind of work to start with. I appreciate your input.....


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## Brian Anderson

Matt Vandart said:


> Lol, sorry Brian!
> 
> I tend to teach it as a puppy with two tugs and such like. I did have quite a bit of difficulty with Sali but it came in the end, it was a waiting game.


awww no problems my friend .. its a common error and it is funny being as I am NOT very brainy lol 

"waiting game" <<< KEY


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## Dave Colborn

You really have to take the dog into account. There is no one way, as you have dogs with different motivations. For example one dog may out with pain, and re engage with a great fight with the decoy. The next dog may pain stimulate and bite harder. He could be better served by working his out on a choke chain pulling him into the bite, inducing an out and then following it up with a bite and fight. A dog That needs counter conditioned to fighting harder at the out command could benefit from exchanging hard toys on a backtie. IE things the dog doesn't really want to bite that much, although the item would provide some satisfaction.

The biggest problem I have seen with out problems in general is a complete unwillingness to make a plan and stick to it. Like one short session on a backtie leaves you with a finished dog. Almost all methods I would teach on the backtie for safety and to be able to incite the opposition reflex if the dog takes any part of it hard.




Brian Anderson said:


> One of the numero uno problems that I run into with people wanting to do bitework with their dog is the inability to teach the high drive dog to turn loose after he has latched on. Getting a dog that has a natural prepencity to bite is easy .. anyone can do it... getting him to let go when you say... not so easy. So I figure its a good topic for folks to learn from considering we get some people involved who actually know how to do it.
> 
> so all you bite work trainers out there ... what you gonna do when the dog wont let go? Id like your answers to be directed at those that are still learning and or those who might be having this problem now. Use only real world experiences you have had ... if you havent had real world experience then ask questions.
> 
> I realize there are a million variables but the approach is going to be similiar with most dogs (yes I said MOST dogs we all know they are all different)
> 
> Dave C weigh in on this please if you have a minute... I will dive in after I see some comments and questions.
> 
> you LE guys out there... does your dog out when you say or you gotta peel him off the bite? If so why dont you want him to out? Im asking the question so your answers can inform those who might not know. Howard wanna get ya some of this?


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## Brian Anderson

Dave Colborn said:


> You really have to take the dog into account. There is no one way, as you have dogs with different motivations. For example one dog may out with pain, and re engage with a great fight with the decoy. The next dog may pain stimulate and bite harder. He could be better served by working his out on a choke chain pulling him into the bite, inducing an out and then following it up with a bite and fight. A dog That needs counter conditioned to fighting harder at the out command could benefit from exchanging hard toys on a backtie. IE things the dog doesn't really want to bite that much, although the item would provide some satisfaction.
> 
> The biggest problem I have seen with out problems in general is a complete unwillingness to make a plan and stick to it. Like one short session on a backtie leaves you with a finished dog. Almost all methods I would teach on the backtie for safety and to be able to incite the opposition reflex if the dog takes any part of it hard.


Thanks Dave.... if any of you folks want to get deep into learning how to do this ... these folks are here and available to offer suggestions... if you are having a specific problem with the out (and I know you're out there) heres your chance to ask some specifics and learn some stuff. Im quite sure if you can give specifics in your query they can be addressed. Dave Im sure like myself deals with this quite a bit (or has in the past)and I KNOW he did when he was working with Jerry ... I realize its difficult to asses a dog via conversation. BUT some of the things are universal and still undiscovered by the newer trainers. None of these guys/gals that know how to do this can read minds BUT they will help if you ask specifics. First step to learning is to ask questions of those who do it.


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## Brian Anderson

Dave could you please touch on opposition reflex and how it relates to the topic? Your better than I am at explaining it in context ... 

Im not picking on Dave .. I just know he knows this stuff and he can explain it better than I can. Im sure there are others here that can too ... Chris get in on this brother and give some input please.


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## Brian Anderson

Matt you said you used the two for one approach (which can be a great way to do it too) .... how about elaborating a bit on your basic approach of the 2 for 1

remember what I said earlier "we can learn from everybody"


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## Howard Knauf

You opened up a can of worms this time Brian.

Depends on which dog I'm working with. Pups are easy. Handler sensitive dogs are easy. It's the handler hard dog and the dog that really enjoys the fight or tries to kill whatever it gets that makes it difficult.

We have an example of the latter. A Mal x Gsd cross that is more Mali than GSD (Mine is just the opposite...lucky me  ). The dog is very driven and goes into tunnel vision when a target is on the field. I actually took this dog waaaaay back to get him under control and teach him to cap his drive, stay in tune with the handler, and somewhat "ask" permission to engage. I knew this dog was strong enough to withstand the training and easily slip back into his previously driven ways later but with more control.

Essentially we had the handler come out to the field with the dog on lead. I was the TD so it was easier to get the timing right. The dog was put in a heel/sit and the team stayed there. From that point on It was up to me to carefully trigger a response from the dog (who is very reactive BTW) but not allow the dog to break position. If the dog broke position he was given a quick correction, a turn around, then repositioned. We did that for as long as it took to get him to stay. To be fair, I did nothing so aggregious that the dog should have broke position. Whining (or drive leakage as some call it) was not allowed. If the dog whined, he got a leash correction via straight up lift on a high fitted garote style collar. Every correction is accompanied with an "out" or "leave it" command. Once the dog has successfully passed this stage he is allowed to get satisfaction with a game of tug with the handler. The dog is not allowed to engage me as he surely would not out and all the work would have been for naught.

Fast forwarding (because there's a lot of boring crap in between but the premise is the same)....at the end of the game plan the dog is able to control himself in the face of the decoy (Me  ) even though I use prey movements or threaten him. I can also rub him with a stick, sleeve, my leg (risque, I know) or whatever, to include walking behind him and stepping on his tail as I pass. During this process the dog is given way more tug sessions with the handler as stress relieving rewards than bites. The dog is also required to look at the handler for permission before he is allowed to bite when the time comes. 

So now we have this little monster controlling himself while exposed to all manner of decoy debauchery. We then introduce multiple decoys into the equation and I am the conductor, if you will. The dog has learned to stay in control of himself with one target, and now has to really focus (Listen to) the handler for direction. It's a ballet of sorts but in the end we have a dog releasing on command, redirecting, recalling and really opening up his mind among 4-5 protected decoys. The missile lock and selective hearing is gone.

A nice side benefit of this training is that the dog's recall on a runoff has gotten better....he is now quiet when giving K9 warnings during building searches (it was a nightmare before), and he comes out of the car less hectic but still looking for the bad guy. 

So this is what we did with this butthead. He was one of my harder cases and we had to go to extremes to fix him. Dogs with similar problems but not such hard cases are handled differently.


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## Dave Colborn

Simply put a dog that is pulled back is hardwired to go forward. Its why hanessed dogs pull a sled well, and why the uninfirmed get pulled around on a walk with their harnessed dog. Translated into a biting dog getting pulled back makes most dogs bite harder so as not to lose what they are biting. We use this knowledge to get the best grip possible when training the dog to bite well. In training the out, you still have to be conscious of the dogs grip.


Brian Anderson said:


> Dave could you please touch on opposition reflex and how it relates to the topic? Your better than I am at explaining it in context ...
> 
> Im not picking on Dave .. I just know he knows this stuff and he can explain it better than I can. Im sure there are others here that can too ... Chris get in on this brother and give some input please.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Until recently I hadn't been exposed to or used any choke offs. My dogs verbal out is considerably less reliable on bites vs tug/ toy. He is quick to try to reingage at the slightest movement but does out with corrections into the bite. Are choke offs even necessary for him?


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## Charles Saul

Excellent thread!!! I adopted a 2 yr old Mal several weeks ago that is ball crazy, he will not release. This dog has spent his first two years of life in a 10 X 10 area carrying landscape timbers around. I have tried the two ball game but he just picks them both up. My plan is to use a straight hard rubber toy and try to control the movement until he releases and then reward. I'll let everyone know what happens and hopefully capture some vids to show progress.


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## Brian Anderson

Howard Knauf said:


> You opened up a can of worms this time Brian.
> 
> Depends on which dog I'm working with. Pups are easy. Handler sensitive dogs are easy. It's the handler hard dog and the dog that really enjoys the fight or tries to kill whatever it gets that makes it difficult.
> 
> We have an example of the latter. A Mal x Gsd cross that is more Mali than GSD (Mine is just the opposite...lucky me  ). The dog is very driven and goes into tunnel vision when a target is on the field. I actually took this dog waaaaay back to get him under control and teach him to cap his drive, stay in tune with the handler, and somewhat "ask" permission to engage. I knew this dog was strong enough to withstand the training and easily slip back into his previously driven ways later but with more control.
> 
> Essentially we had the handler come out to the field with the dog on lead. I was the TD so it was easier to get the timing right. The dog was put in a heel/sit and the team stayed there. From that point on It was up to me to carefully trigger a response from the dog (who is very reactive BTW) but not allow the dog to break position. If the dog broke position he was given a quick correction, a turn around, then repositioned. We did that for as long as it took to get him to stay. To be fair, I did nothing so aggregious that the dog should have broke position. Whining (or drive leakage as some call it) was not allowed. If the dog whined, he got a leash correction via straight up lift on a high fitted garote style collar. Every correction is accompanied with an "out" or "leave it" command. Once the dog has successfully passed this stage he is allowed to get satisfaction with a game of tug with the handler. The dog is not allowed to engage me as he surely would not out and all the work would have been for naught.
> 
> Fast forwarding (because there's a lot of boring crap in between but the premise is the same)....at the end of the game plan the dog is able to control himself in the face of the decoy (Me  ) even though I use prey movements or threaten him. I can also rub him with a stick, sleeve, my leg (risque, I know) or whatever, to include walking behind him and stepping on his tail as I pass. During this process the dog is given way more tug sessions with the handler as stress relieving rewards than bites. The dog is also required to look at the handler for permission before he is allowed to bite when the time comes.
> 
> So now we have this little monster controlling himself while exposed to all manner of decoy debauchery. We then introduce multiple decoys into the equation and I am the conductor, if you will. The dog has learned to stay in control of himself with one target, and now has to really focus (Listen to) the handler for direction. It's a ballet of sorts but in the end we have a dog releasing on command, redirecting, recalling and really opening up his mind among 4-5 protected decoys. The missile lock and selective hearing is gone.
> 
> A nice side benefit of this training is that the dog's recall on a runoff has gotten better....he is now quiet when giving K9 warnings during building searches (it was a nightmare before), and he comes out of the car less hectic but still looking for the bad guy.
> 
> So this is what we did with this butthead. He was one of my harder cases and we had to go to extremes to fix him. Dogs with similar problems but not such hard cases are handled differently.


man I love cans of worms LOL ... and I appreciate you joining in. I was hoping you would. There is a ton of good stuff in your accounting of the setup and the process. Thanks a lot for the insight! Im going to get to some questions shortly and I hope you will entertain them for us.


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## Brian Anderson

Charles Saul said:


> Excellent thread!!! I adopted a 2 yr old Mal several weeks ago that is ball crazy, he will not release. This dog has spent his first two years of life in a 10 X 10 area carrying landscape timbers around. I have tried the two ball game but he just picks them both up. My plan is to use a straight hard rubber toy and try to control the movement until he releases and then reward. I'll let everyone know what happens and hopefully capture some vids to show progress.


Charles sounds like a good one to learn from! when you say "he just picks them both up" I am led to believe that they are laying on the ground. When you play the two for one game I have had the best luck using two or more toys of differing value to the dog. One really high value and the others less. The really high value toy is used to maintain a high level of engagement from him and as a reward for the correct behavior. (its the one you keep stashed in your pocket so you can whip it out quickly). If we related it to something we can appreciate as humans You could think of the toys in terms of value as one is a 10 dollar bill and the other is a 5 dollar bill and have a couple dollar bills for tipping. 

your ready to start.... you bring him in a place without distractions and bring his drive up and use the dollar bill toys to start the game .. dont worry about the out yet just play the game ... you arent going to get to an out in one session and that shouldnt be your goal here ... your going to do that by degrees. Come to a stop and remain motionless without making eye contact with the dog. wait him out and see what happens .. if he spits it out immediately whip out your 10 dollar bill toy and reward. Dont worry about commands at this stage because you dont want to give the behavior a name until its right. Have fun and let him have fun. Do a couple or three reps as above and tell him your done and wind it up on a good note with some high fives and praise. Keep repeating this scenario until you see it coming together. This isnt the fast approach but it will build the foundation for a nice clean reliable out. Be sure to read what the others are offering theres lots of good stuff there ... 

I suggest you use a tug over a ball ... balls are hard to work with and your hands will get torn up. Everyone has their own way of doing it and their own style ... so take all you gleen and put it together with your own way of working with the dog and you will be successful with him. Id be interested to hear how you progress for sure... best of luck with him ... and hey! Sounds like he could help around the house too with the carrying around of the landscape timbers and such lol


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## Brian Anderson

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Until recently I hadn't been exposed to or used any choke offs. My dogs verbal out is considerably less reliable on bites vs tug/ toy. He is quick to try to reingage at the slightest movement but does out with corrections into the bite. Are choke offs even necessary for him?


Id say no they are not necessary. One factor being the opposition reflex Dave described. 
when you say quick to re engage would you say he is dirty? Or just has a hair trigger for the bite?


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## Matt Vandart

Charles Saul said:


> Excellent thread!!! I adopted a 2 yr old Mal several weeks ago that is ball crazy, he will not release. This dog has spent his first two years of life in a 10 X 10 area carrying landscape timbers around. I have tried the two ball game but he just picks them both up. My plan is to use a straight hard rubber toy and try to control the movement until he releases and then reward. I'll let everyone know what happens and hopefully capture some vids to show progress.


I aint got time to go into this in detail atm as I have hot rod drag racing to go to 

Use more balls.
I'll explain later


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## Dave Colborn

Maybe. Without seeing the dog it would be hard to say. I would want him whipped into a frenzy when he is ready to bite so you have no more refused bites. Lift offs help frustrate the dog and don't degrade the out at all. Reason being, the cue for the lift off which increases frustration is hands on the collar NO VERBAL CUE AT ALL!!! For the out you use your verbal cue. I would not do this unless you have someone who does it to good end show you and watch. Lifting the dog off can cause problems. For example, he gets frustrated and bites you. Simple solution, lift off, rebate immediately several times. Then lift of and start counting and raising the criteria.


The lift off has a lot of benefits, but in my mind they aren't for an out thread because they aren't related to releasing. Thank you for asking it here because i think a lot of people see the main benefit of a lift off being an "out" and use their out command while doing it, degrade their out and confusing the dog while doing so. Out means out. Lift off means bite harder don't let go. Two separate commands.


Re- engaging is a training issue. Put your dog back on a backtie. Out him and have your decoy slowly move around just outside of the arc to desensitize him. Again, a separate subject but an important one. Including all levels of training in one session makes your training stronger and more efficient. For example if your dog does a good building search (or not) you do what level he is at. Get him a find, or escort the first guy out of the building, put the dog on a back tie and work the grip, civil work the out, the control. Whatever he needs. For me every session while having simple goals takes planning to improve and not degrade. Dog must be consistent on leash before moving off leash.


Nick Hrycaj said:


> Until recently I hadn't been exposed to or used any choke offs. My dogs verbal out is considerably less reliable on bites vs tug/ toy. He is quick to try to reingage at the slightest movement but does out with corrections into the bite. Are choke offs even necessary for him?


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## Dave Colborn

Charles. You actually are doing a drive building game, not working the out. Control your toys. The release by the dog brings movement in the second toy. Try using pvc pipe almost like playing fetch with sticks. As he comes back act like you are going to throw 180 degrees the other way. Progress from there. Conflict makes it harder to let go because of pressure Nd the dog wont let go, or tugging is more enjoyable or a combination. Good luck.


Charles Saul said:


> Excellent thread!!! I adopted a 2 yr old Mal several weeks ago that is ball crazy, he will not release. This dog has spent his first two years of life in a 10 X 10 area carrying landscape timbers around. I have tried the two ball game but he just picks them both up. My plan is to use a straight hard rubber toy and try to control the movement until he releases and then reward. I'll let everyone know what happens and hopefully capture some vids to show progress.


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## Hunter Allred

My focus has been shifting the reward for the dog away from being in possession of an inanimate object to something else. With a toy, I make the interaction with me the value and the toy gets boring without me involved. Don't even do the 2 toy thing. With an adult dog in bite work already taught the exercises the normal way anyone would, the reward is made to be beating the bad guy and the dog triggering avoidance/flight by the decoy... not winning a jute thing. This is one of the reasons I do muzzle work, and no equipment/no bite work. A side effect Ive seen is better outing overall. Then, I use electric on nick to build speed if needed. It's worked well for me.


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## Brian Anderson

Hunter Allred said:


> My focus has been shifting the reward for the dog away from being in possession of an inanimate object to something else. With a toy, I make the interaction with me the value and the toy gets boring without me involved. Don't even do the 2 toy thing. With an adult dog in bite work already taught the exercises the normal way anyone would, the reward is made to be beating the bad guy and the dog triggering avoidance/flight by the decoy... not winning a jute thing. This is one of the reasons I do muzzle work, and no equipment/no bite work. A side effect Ive seen is better outing overall. Then, I use electric on nick to build speed if needed. It's worked well for me.


Sounds like a cool approach Hunter. ... some of these dogs value that bite above all else.


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## Brian Anderson

Dave said 

"The lift off has a lot of benefits, but in my mind they aren't for an out thread because they aren't related to releasing. Thank you for asking it here because i think a lot of people see the main benefit of a lift off being an "out" and use their out command while doing it, degrade their out and confusing the dog while doing so. Out means out. Lift off means bite harder don't let go. Two separate commands." 

thanks for pointing that out. I have seen this before as well and in fact not long ago we had some debate in training regarding this very thing. One of those "miss the forrest for the trees" moments to be sure. 
This is one of those concepts that although basic ... ripples across all the training. Another "be careful what you say when because you might be naming the wrong behavior"


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## Paul Cipparone

Ever tried teaching the " Out , Leave it, Down/Sit " commands when feeding . Teach the commands when the dog is hungry & eating ./
works for me.
Paul C.


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## Paul Cipparone

If you find that going well, try teaching to break - off when the dog is taking a pee...> to sit or down. 
Paul C.


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## Brian Anderson

Paul Cipparone said:


> Ever tried teaching the " Out , Leave it, Down/Sit " commands when feeding . Teach the commands when the dog is hungry & eating ./
> works for me.
> Paul C.


Paul Im glad to see you brother! Hope you are doing well ... as a matter of fact thats how we start the whole process.... not much out there that will motivate and get the attention of a hungry dog more than high value food. Feel free to throw in some of the specifics if you have the time and are inclined.


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## Connie Sutherland

Several years ago, I was lucky enough to watch Bob Eden's self-out protocol. (As the TD said more than once, a self-out is _not_ an automatic out). 

This was a dog who came to the department with the problem.


_"First of all, I try not to get into the equipment fixation problem this deep, but if I have a dog that comes to me that does, here is the routine."_

It was far more exhausting and lengthy than I, at least, imagined it could be, but as he says in his article, _"Again, there is no substitute for not getting to this point in the first place, but if you do get to this point, this will work. No, it is not a short cut, it is not a table routine, nor is it an electical routine, but once you have it, the dog will not revert backwards and you will need no electrical collars to back you up."_


http://www.policek9.com/html/selfout.html


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## Brian Anderson

Connie Sutherland said:


> Several years ago, I was lucky enough to watch Bob Eden's self-out protocol. (As the TD said more than once, a self-out is _not_ an automatic out).
> 
> This was a dog who came to the department with the problem.
> 
> 
> _"First of all, I try not to get into the equipment fixation problem this deep, but if I have a dog that comes to me that does, here is the routine."_
> 
> It was far more exhausting and lengthy than I, at least, imagined it could be, but as he says in his article, _"Again, there is no substitute for not getting to this point in the first place, but if you do get to this point, this will work. No, it is not a short cut, it is not a table routine, nor is it an electical routine, but once you have it, the dog will not revert backwards and you will need no electrical collars to back you up."_
> 
> 
> http://www.policek9.com/html/selfout.html


Connie I hadnt seen this ... thanks for posting it... I scanned it briefly and will sit down later when I have some quiet time to really read it ... looks interesting to be sure


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## Joby Becker

Connie Sutherland said:


> Several years ago, I was lucky enough to watch Bob Eden's self-out protocol. (As the TD said more than once, a self-out is _not_ an automatic out).
> 
> This was a dog who came to the department with the problem.
> 
> 
> _"First of all, I try not to get into the equipment fixation problem this deep, but if I have a dog that comes to me that does, here is the routine."_
> 
> It was far more exhausting and lengthy than I, at least, imagined it could be, but as he says in his article, _"Again, there is no substitute for not getting to this point in the first place, but if you do get to this point, this will work. No, it is not a short cut, it is not a table routine, nor is it an electical routine, but once you have it, the dog will not revert backwards and you will need no electrical collars to back you up."_
> 
> 
> http://www.policek9.com/html/selfout.html


most definitely have tree or something to push sleeve against ready for this method. and NEVER try this method with a bite SUIT...a suit is not rigid enough and also will get shredded with some dogs.


this method does work .. thanks for sharing this Connie


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## Hunter Allred

Brian Anderson said:


> Sounds like a cool approach Hunter. ... some of these dogs value that bite above all else.


Oh I know. I've got a bit of that in my own pack. Of my two, one will enjoy the fight given the option, and one will enjoy possessing the prey given the option. So the latter I must be more careful and methodical with how I approach it. The latter has cleaner, faster outs, but will also slip into crappy outs if not maintained. The latter I could see refusing an out if I wasn't proactive about it. The former I would only see refusing to out if the bad guy was fighting hard still. That dog also outs nicest when the helper is "beaten". The latter dog could have easily been a "possess the prey at all costs" and early on there was some out refusal


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## Paul Cipparone

Been using this approach for more than 40 years , works well if using a small hand tug for reward , if dog is reluctant to release, tug "dies", dog lets go "out" , rewarded quickly with another bite on the tug.
A simple approach , but often overlooked. This unwilling to let go is often seen in schH/IPO trials when the decoy is not " strong enough" not crunching the the butt muscles & core to keep the sleeve dead, results in sleeve movement, continuing of the fight , slow outs , extra commands , point loss , etc.
Paul C.


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## Paul Cipparone

Forgot to add, forcing the dog onto the bite ..." i call it repulsion training " i have used it on many dogs that have come to me to correct destructive chewing.
Paul C.


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## Howard Knauf

Connie Sutherland said:


> Several years ago, I was lucky enough to watch Bob Eden's self-out protocol. (As the TD said more than once, a self-out is _not_ an automatic out).
> 
> This was a dog who came to the department with the problem.
> 
> 
> _"First of all, I try not to get into the equipment fixation problem this deep, but if I have a dog that comes to me that does, here is the routine."_
> 
> It was far more exhausting and lengthy than I, at least, imagined it could be, but as he says in his article, _"Again, there is no substitute for not getting to this point in the first place, but if you do get to this point, this will work. No, it is not a short cut, it is not a table routine, nor is it an electical routine, but once you have it, the dog will not revert backwards and you will need no electrical collars to back you up."_
> 
> 
> http://www.policek9.com/html/selfout.html


 Personally, I'm against this method for PSDs. One major reason is that the dog ultimately fails during this training and that is not the mindset I want in my dog on the street.


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## Paul Cipparone

If you can get your helper to wear 2 sleeves one behind their back, dog on the bite with one . out , then quickly present the other in an escape attempt , not moving more than 1/2 a stride , & back to the original position, & repeat , the dog will constantly be rewarded.Never a failure in this method.
Paul C.


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## Connie Sutherland

Howard Knauf said:


> Personally, I'm against this method for PSDs. One major reason is that the dog ultimately fails during this training and that is not the mindset I want in my dog on the street.


I hadn't heard this comment put exactly this way before, but I think I get what you mean. 



But doesn't the dog learn that the call-off is a good thing, leading to good things? 


Has the dog ultimately succeeded if he's, say, choked off the bite?



BTW, I know that Howard is well aware that I'm not seriously setting myself up as knowledgeable for debating this with him. 

I like topics like this with real opinions in place of "You're so stooopid" .. "No, you are, neener neener." :lol:



P.S. I think it was Joby who reinforced the use of a tree for the Eden self-out ...._ absolutely!_


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## Connie Sutherland

Paul Cipparone said:


> If you can get your helper to wear 2 sleeves one behind their back, dog on the bite with one . out , then quickly present the other in an escape attempt , not moving more than 1/2 a stride , & back to the original position, & repeat , the dog will constantly be rewarded.Never a failure in this method.
> Paul C.


Does this mean the self-out method followed by immediate "alive again" with the second sleeve?

Or a clean commanded out followed by that?


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## Paul Cipparone

Either way Connie, the idea is to have the dog think . You can vary the second bite as you read the dog's progress. I have tried to convey this to many club helpers , that the " rabbit " rarely challenges the dog , the escape stride builds the dogs prey, while the length of time between bites builds the defence, hence the stronger bark to get the helper / bad guy to move. By that time you have called the dog to heel (schH/IPO) or the officer is there to apprehend.
Paul C.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Brian, I think it is semantics. Dirty and hairline trigger, to me just reflect handler acceptance of the same action in different situations.

Dave I am hearing what you are saying with the drive building and keep forgetting how important it is not to mix the verbal out and lift off. Im sure many other newbies like me have that issue remembering all the new techniques all at once.

Is it within the scope of this board to ask: When do you deem a method ineffective and begin to switch to a new method? I know some can be used situation ally or in conjunction but others compete.


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## Howard Knauf

Connie Sutherland said:


> I hadn't heard this comment put exactly this way before, but I think I get what you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> But doesn't the dog learn that the call-off is a good thing, leading to good things?


 The Eden protocol isn't a call off if I remember correctly. The dog is allowed to stay on the bite until it eventually is so exhausted, or falls out of drive that he disengages. If you have a dog that really likes to fight, and you allow him to bite so long on a decoy until his jaw muscles ache and acid up and he fails, then how is this not a failure in the dog's eyes? The dog is giving all he has. He is left alone by the handler (some team eh?) to "fight" a bad guy he's been trained to fight....and then when he's gassed or in physical pain he has no choice but to disengage because we humans set him up to fail. I never want my dog to go to the wall like that. Once there, the dog now knows his limits and on a real street engagement he may not stay in a fight. Why do I want my dog even THINKING about disengaging on a bad guy who may just lay there passive and possibly oblivious to pain due to drugs, alcohol or just plain craziness? Others might see it differently but that's my opinion FWIW.

My answer is directed to you as you're the only one with the question. 




> Has the dog ultimately succeeded if he's, say, choked off the bite?


 Depends on the goal.


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## Dave Colborn

Connie Sutherland said:


> Has the dog ultimately succeeded if he's, say, choked off?/I]


If your goal is to get a dog to bite more, choking/lifting off leaves the dog wanting to bite more. Does the dog quit? No, it still wants to bite. Did it win? No, but on the next bite, it typically will be more frustrated and bite harder. Works on toys as well as a suit or sleeve. This is why it is imperative to not use the out command while lifting a dog off. You will essentially teach the dog to bite harder on the out.

I have seen a lot of dogs worked this way and taught an out later. Works well for weak or strong dogs. It's a great place to desensitize the dog to the handler. This does require faking lift offs way more than lifting off. Good technique for most dogs, but still has nothing to do with the out.

Lifting off encourages the dog to stay a bit wild, and yet allows training to continue after a bite without addressing an out.


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## Bob Scott

The club I belonged to did the same thing but didn't recall the dog after the bite. The dog was given an immediate marker and got a rebite for the release.
As in the article this dog held on for a good 20-30 mins and and each time it was worked the time shortened.
Now, what I see as a down side is when the dog first learns the out with a lot of e-stym,choke off, etc then the dog will revert to it's foundation training after being introduced to the out with the motivational methods. 
Thats what thsi dog did when he was bought by the same high level handler that sold him in the first place. The dog failed at the nats because of no out and the handler went back to the high pressure out. 
This was a dog that just wanted to fight and heavy handed outs just fed into that.


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## Dave Colborn

Bob. 

If the dog "learned it" it shouldn't go backwards or revert back. Basically you hit the nail on the head without meaning to. Dogs that don't out well are trained not to as much as a dog trained to sit on command. Choking off DOES NOT TEACH AN OUT in most cases. This is at the root of why dogs have out problems. Not knowing what our actions do to the dog. Choking motivates a dog to bite more. Find what motivates the dog well, and you control the dog even if you have to lay correction or escape training to initially induce the out, then you can reward immediately after getting the behavior. With most out problems the reward that is greater is an active helper vs a dead one.




Bob Scott said:


> The club I belonged to did the same thing but didn't recall the dog after the bite. The dog was given an immediate marker and got a rebite for the release.
> As in the article this dog held on for a good 20-30 mins and and each time it was worked the time shortened.
> Now, what I see as a down side is when the dog first learns the out with a lot of e-stym,choke off, etc then the dog will revert to it's foundation training after being introduced to the out with the motivational methods.
> Thats what thsi dog did when he was bought by the same high level handler that sold him in the first place. The dog failed at the nats because of no out and the handler went back to the high pressure out.
> This was a dog that just wanted to fight and heavy handed outs just fed into that.


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## Brian Smith

The way we have taught the out is actually very simple and has been very effective. Instead of two balls we use two sleeved decoys. The dog is given one grip with the decoy giving a mid-level fight. The sleeve is slipped and the dog is circled a few times while the second decoy comes into view. Once the dog sees the new decoy he drops the sleeve, is praised with "Good Out" and sent for another grip with the bite command. We repeat this five or six times per session and typically within two weeks the dog will out on command from the dead sleeve. Another two weeks (if not less) the dog is outing off of the decoy.
I will say that once the out is reliable from the dead sleeve we begin dope training with the BSD boxes. This gives him hundreds of repetitions of outing a week which I am sure translates on the training field. 
I have only seen one dog not respond to this training and the issue was that the dog would immediately take the dead sleeve to ground and punish it. You could drag the dog around and he would not release it. This dog was sold to us a green with only bite training but no verbal commands. While the trainer tried to figure out our next move I suggested giving the dog a grip and giving the out command, just to see what the dogs reaction was. Sure enough the "untrained" dog released his grip.
On another note I have trained with Bob Eden and VCSi and have seen first hand his approach. I understand his reasoning but am not a fan as it seems to take longer and is hell on the decoy. He tried it with a neighboring agency's Mali and was caught a little off guard buy the dogs commitment to the bite. He asked for a dog with out problems but I not sure he wanted one with no out at all. He tried to entice the dog to release by showing him a ball, a tug, and another sleeve all without success. After 35 or 40 minutes the dog finally released and was again rewarded with a grip. Another 30 minutes on the sleeve and he released. That was the end of the training example. To be fare, the agency bought the Mali pre-trained and had clearly been trained using lots of compulsion which obviously taught the dog to fight through the discomfort.
I have also tried the Michael Ellis version using a tug and making it go dead. With the green dogs we get its all but useless but I have had great results with puppies. 
The tie out method discussed using the choker to pull into the sleeve also works but I tend to lean towards a more positive approach.


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## Connie Sutherland

Thanks, Howard. I get you clearly now.


Many thought-provoking posts here!


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## Christopher Smith

Have you ever noticed that a dog that guards well rarely has out problems?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Brian Anderson said:


> man I love cans of worms LOL ... and I appreciate you joining in. I was hoping you would. There is a ton of good stuff in your accounting of the setup and the process. Thanks a lot for the insight! Im going to get to some questions shortly and I hope you will entertain them for us.


Agree. Really gives a feel for decreasing the zone of reactivity. Live the drive satisfaction and stress release through the handler which helps build more partnership and compliance.


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## Brian Anderson

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Agree. Really gives a feel for decreasing the zone of reactivity. Live the drive satisfaction and stress release through the handler which helps build more partnership and compliance.


T it really was and I learned some stuff out of that ,, these little nuggets of info from folks that do this stuff are invaluable. I am already applying some of the things that have been shared in this thread. I have been doing it a long time but I am far from being where Id like to be in my training.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Brian Anderson said:


> T it really was and I learned some stuff out of that ,, these little nuggets of info from folks that do this stuff are invaluable. I am already applying some of the things that have been shared in this thread. I have been doing it a long time but I am far from being where Id like to be in my training.[/QUOTE
> I think there is always more to learn. I've done something similar with my stock dogs. Little tidbits like this facilitate expanding it even more. Was explaining earlier WHY I was working a stock dog with a flirt pole and object drive.


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## Dave Colborn

Why do you suppose that is?


Christopher Smith said:


> Have you ever noticed that a dog that guards well rarely has out problems?


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## Christopher Smith

Dave Colborn said:


> Why do you suppose that is?


Because the out is not a shut down command, as most of the out training methods above cause. The out becomes a command to do another behavior that the dog finds deeply satisfying.


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## Brian Anderson

Christopher Smith said:


> Because the out is not a shut down command, as most of the out training methods above cause. The out becomes a command to do another behavior that the dog finds deeply satisfying.


YES!!!! Two sentences that provide a key to unlock the door of out training.


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## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> Bob.
> 
> If the dog "learned it" it shouldn't go backwards or revert back. Basically you hit the nail on the head without meaning to. Dogs that don't out well are trained not to as much as a dog trained to sit on command. Choking off DOES NOT TEACH AN OUT in most cases. This is at the root of why dogs have out problems. Not knowing what our actions do to the dog. Choking motivates a dog to bite more. Find what motivates the dog well, and you control the dog even if you have to lay correction or escape training to initially induce the out, then you can reward immediately after getting the behavior. With most out problems the reward that is greater is an active helper vs a dead one.



I agree about the choke off being a frustration builder for more bite. (Opposition reflex)
This dog was flat out abused. E-collar, cattle prod, electric sleeve, you name it. The dog also had a broken canine tooth and the suspicion was that it was punched in the mouth with a leather gauntlet. 
The motivational out did work but, again, when the dog was bought back the training went back to the same ol same ol. 
The dog came back to the club and was tossed out because it decided the sleeve wasn't what it wanted. It tried to go over, round and through the sleeve in order to get to the helper. 
Last I heard the dog is a companion for the wife. Nice dog now...but don't mess with mama! 
To me this is a classic example of don't pick fight with a dog that likes to fight. Out think it!


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## Dave Colborn

You shut the biting down too in teaching I would bet. It is nuanced if you are good. You teach the dog to perform something less satisfying either a barking guard or a sit stare to get the reward of a bite and Satisfying fight, but, you have to get a dog that likes to bite to release to do so, so you can reward it. You make it sound completely motivational and it's not with all dogs, certainly not the ones with an out problem. What is more important than thinking a guard is magical is that a dog can hold a less desirable behavior to get to what it wants. Also that the reward bite is what the dog ultimately really wants. 






Christopher Smith said:


> Because the out is not a shut down command, as most of the out training methods above cause. The out becomes a command to do another behavior that the dog finds deeply satisfying.


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## Gillian Schuler

I taught my dogs early to "out". I have never had any trouble with them apart from once with the Briard where we went to a New Year Trial in the mountains after having had a wet and hilarious party at the dog club.

I looked at the dog bleary-eyed, hesitated a second and that was my failure. He outed but not straight away.

Otherwise I have never had any problems with outing. They have bitten hard but have outed cleanly.

I insisted on a clean out with tugs, and whatever.

I have noticed on forums here and elsewhere that the out should not be enforced too early. I find this to be ludicrous.

I used the "out" for when my elder GSD got hold of the younger - worked.

When he barked at a passerby's dog. 

When he had got hold of another dog.

For me "Out" means "open your jaws".


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## Dave Colborn

How do you teach the out? 

I don't agree with outs early and it's not ludicrous for me. I have taken several dogs as young adults 8-12 months with no out, finished their training and had no trouble with their out. . I do agree that once established out means out.



Gillian Schuler said:


> I taught my dogs early to "out". I have never had any trouble with them apart from once with the Briard where we went to a New Year Trial in the mountains after having had a wet and hilarious party at the dog club.
> 
> I looked at the dog bleary-eyed, hesitated a second and that was my failure. He outed but not straight away.
> 
> Otherwise I have never had any problems with outing. They have bitten hard but have outed cleanly.
> 
> I insisted on a clean out with tugs, and whatever.
> 
> I have noticed on forums here and elsewhere that the out should not be enforced too early. I find this to be ludicrous.
> 
> I used the "out" for when my elder GSD got hold of the younger - worked.
> 
> When he barked at a passerby's dog.
> 
> When he had got hold of another dog.
> 
> For me "Out" means "open your jaws".


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## Gillian Schuler

Like you would teach it at a later stage, I imagine.

Early outs do mot mean weak bites.


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## Dave Colborn

This thread is for young folks that need help not having out problems. The thread is looking for methods.

Early outs don't mean weak bites in all dogs, but it absolutely can and will make some dogs weaker. Since we don't work perfect genetic samples, a trainer dies what he or she can to get the best result. People I respect do it both ways. Different trainer different methods. I do believe a dog reverts to what it Learns early on or is very rewarding. I'd rather know that I am not stifling my dog by teaching him or her an out early.


Gillian Schuler said:


> Like you would teach it at a later stage, I imagine.
> 
> Early outs do mot mean weak bites.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Dave Colborn said:


> This thread is for young folks that need help not having out problems. The thread is looking for methods.
> 
> Early outs don't mean weak bites in all dogs, but it absolutely can and will make some dogs weaker. Since we don't work perfect genetic samples, a trainer dies what he or she can to get the best result. People I respect do it both ways. Different trainer different methods. I do believe a dog reverts to what it Learns early on or is very rewarding. I'd rather know that I am not stifling my dog by teaching him or her an out early.


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## Gillian Schuler

Dave Colborn said:


> This thread is for young folks that need help not having out problems. The thread is looking for methods.
> 
> Early outs don't mean weak bites in all dogs, but it absolutely can and will make some dogs weaker. Since we don't work perfect genetic samples, a trainer dies what he or she can to get the best result. People I respect do it both ways. Different trainer different methods. I do believe a dog reverts to what it Learns early on or is very rewarding. I'd rather know that I am not stifling my dog by teaching him or her an out early.


Everyone is to some degree a "new handler" to each dog.

If early outs make a dog weaker, why continue with this?


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## Dave Colborn

I dont with almost all dogs I have worked.

What is your method for teaching the out?



Gillian Schuler said:


> Everyone is to some degree a "new handler" to each dog.
> 
> If early outs make a dog weaker, why continue with this?


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Dave,

What is the point of a "weaker" dog learning a later "out"?

How do you define this in the first place?

I teach my young Dogs /pups "out" at an early age and if this means that their biting power suffers, so be it. 

It hasn't happened yet but if it had, I would have resorted to another sport of which we have about 200-300 different types here.

I find the idea of trying to "bribe" a dog to protection sports unworthy.


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## Dave Colborn

Ok. What is your method. Keep the thread on track. I get that you do it your way. No problem.


Gillian Schuler said:


> Dave,
> 
> What is the point of a "weaker" dog learning a later "out"?
> 
> How do you define this in the first place?
> 
> I teach my young Dogs /pups "out" at an early age and if this means that their biting power suffers, so be it.
> 
> It hasn't happened yet but if it had, I would have resorted to another sport of which we have about 200-300 different types here.
> 
> I find the idea of trying to "bribe" a dog to protection sports unworthy.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I'm not sure what you mean by "what is my method"?

I am a very simple dog handler. 

My pup bites, I teach him the out.

At protection classes, with the elder GSD, the out has been correct

The younger GSD needed a stronger command to out.


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## Dave Colborn

You can't define it. That is exactly why I would wait until the dog is biting well. Because control does sometimes cause problems. Not adding it until later let's the dog develop more before starting. Again, I don't expect to change your mind. I was curious to how you deal with a bad out, the subject of this thread.


Gillian Schuler said:


> Dave,
> 
> What is the point of a "weaker" dog learning a later "out"?
> 
> How do you define this in the first place?
> 
> I teach my young Dogs /pups "out" at an early age and if this means that their biting power suffers, so be it.
> 
> It hasn't happened yet but if it had, I would have resorted to another sport of which we have about 200-300 different types here.
> 
> I find the idea of trying to "bribe" a dog to protection sports unworthy.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

What can I say?

My dog bites on a a tug or whaever and to get him to release it, I remain still and command him to out.


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## Dave Colborn

I believe you. I also know starting some dogs young works well for some people and some dogs. Not denying that at all.

Just wondering how you go about a session where you teach a dog to release. For me I get the dog to release, then reward. Getting the dog to release can be motivational, having the helper freeze up and hold, using a pinch correction to correct into the bite or using a choke chain to pull the dog into the bite. Most of the dogs I have been worked as adults. No outs taught when I get them. This is typical of a dog coming from Europe green from vendors used by the company I worked for.



Gillian Schuler said:


> What can I say?
> 
> My dog bites on a a tug or whaever and to get him to release it, I remain still and command him to out.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Dave Colborn said:


> You can't define it. That is exactly why I would wait until the dog is biting well. Because control does sometimes cause problems. Not adding it until later let's the dog develop more before starting. Again, I don't expect to change your mind. I was curious to how you deal with a bad out, the subject of this thread.


What - I can't define it. What is there to define? The dog bites - I say "out".

Dave you ae getting too compicated for me. Dog sport, even in protection is clear "out is out"??


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## Gillian Schuler

Having taught the dog from young upwards, I have no problem with this.


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## Dave Colborn

I think we are having a commo problem. When teaching, if you say "out" and the dog does not, what do you do.


Gillian Schuler said:


> Having taught the dog from young upwards, I have no problem with this.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I would take him away from the helper, calm him and retrieve the sleeve.

I know Dave you are putting me on a line to see what I can offer. I cannot offer much because I teach my dogs to out at an early age.

Keep asking...


----------



## Christopher Smith

Dave Colborn said:


> You shut the biting down too in teaching I would bet. It is nuanced if you are good. You teach the dog to perform something less satisfying either a barking guard or a sit stare to get the reward of a bite and Satisfying fight, but, you have to get a dog that likes to bite to release to do so, so you can reward it. You make it sound completely motivational and it's not with all dogs, certainly not the ones with an out problem. What is more important than thinking a guard is magical is that a dog can hold a less desirable behavior to get to what it wants. Also that the reward bite is what the dog ultimately really wants.


I think you are projecting your inadequacies when you say that that guarding is less satisfying than biting. And you show a complete lack of understanding of my protection work when you refer to a bite as some type of reward. I never use the bite as a reward. I also never said how I train the out. 

But you you have your way of training things and I have my way of training things. And I never have out problems with the dogs that I train.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Hahahahaha. You are silly.

the DOG gets to tell us what the reward is and what it's correction is. It's science. 

Now would be a great time to talk about your out since this thread is about that. Please note I never said how you train or out. You are mistaken. What I said was I bet your out training shuts the dog down.

Explain how you get your out.. don't deflect or derail the thread.



Christopher Smith said:


> I think you are projecting your inadequacies when you say that that guarding is less satisfying than biting. And you show a complete lack of understanding of my protection work when you refer to a bite as some type of reward. I never use the bite as a reward. I also never said how I train the out.
> 
> But you you have your way of training things and I have my way of training things. And I never have out problems with the dogs that I train.


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## Christopher Smith

That depeds on the things the dog brings to the table and the handlers skills. You see Dave unlike science there are no formulas. It's an art. Just like when I make sweet love to the ladies. I can't teach you how to do that either. Either you have it or you don't. And obviously I got it.


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## Dave Colborn

So you can't describe an out. Got it.

Oh. And there are formulas. And rules. And they hold true from dog to dog overplayed as you say on the dogs genetics and the handlers ability.

Your out?



Christopher Smith said:


> That depeds on the things the dog brings to the table and the handlers skills. You see Dave unlike science there are no formulas. It's an art. Just like when I make sweet love to the ladies. I can't teach you how to do that either. Either you have it or you don't. And obviously I got it.


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## Christopher Smith

Hey Dave if you post a video of a dog with an out problem maybe we can BOTH tell how we would approach the problem?


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## Dave Colborn

Christopher Smith said:


> Hey Dave if you post a video of a dog with an out problem maybe we can BOTH tell how we would approach the problem?


Great idea but I don't have one. Anyone?


----------



## Bob Scott

Always with a lockup and then mark and reward for the out. The mark can be a vocal mark or by putting the sleeve back in motion.
Movement can be added slowly if you don't want the dog to do an immediate out when the helper locks up.
Movement to strong, to early and opposition reflex pops up.


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## Alice Bezemer

Too much thought and overthinking the out by some on this topic. The out is what it is, regardless of age. If outing at a young age is detremental to the dogs bite that very same dog should not be worked with to begin with. A dog either has the character and backbone to go through the outing fase of its training at a young age or its a POS that doesn't deserve the time it takes to put it through training. JMO and I am sure some of you will disagree with it. 

And before you ask how I out my dogs? I'm pretty sure thats well known by now since the videos are on this forum for all to disect.

Out is OUT. Not motivational and no bribing the dog.


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## Nick Hrycaj

I have a video but can just as easily articulate it in words.
1. Decoy was too big for suit.
2. Eventually placed dog on leg bite.
3. Decoy bitched out, I tried to induce a hurried out.
4. Verbal did not work so went to multiple prong corrections towards decoy.

Those that say it was poor or flawed training are correct. Those that say one way of positive/ obedience oriented outs will ALWAYS suffice don't work dogs in the real world where every factor is out of my control. For example if i want my dog to out I can't get the bad guy to lay still like a decoy might while I do so


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## Dave Colborn

This is a perfect example of where to be silent and lift the dog off...doesn't hurt the out, the training, or your decoy as much. Put the dog up, fix the equipment, start again..


Nick Hrycaj said:


> I have a video but can just as easily articulate it in words.
> 1. Decoy was too big for suit.
> 2. Eventually placed dog on leg bite.
> 3. Decoy bitched out, I tried to induce a hurried out.
> 4. Verbal did not work so went to multiple prong corrections towards decoy.
> 
> Those that say it was poor or flawed training are correct. Those that say one way of positive/ obedience oriented outs will ALWAYS suffice don't work dogs in the real world where every factor is out of my control. For example if i want my dog to out I can't get the bad guy to lay still like a decoy might while I do so


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## Jay Quinn

of my 4 dogs, 2 i taught out myself, and 2 came with prior training... one has been with me since i got him at 10mths and is now 5yo, one i got as an 8wk old pup and sold to the defence forces at 7mths, he came back 10mths later, is now 2.5yo... those two i taught the out myself... used Michael Ellis' method... the older two dogs 5.5yo came to me as a 3yo, and almost 9yo who i first got at 3yo, has been back and forth between handlers, very long story... those two already had prior training... 

of the two i taught, the older one has always been pretty good, and when he decides to be a little dirty gets decoy corrections with a prong on upside-down and the decoy holding a leash under the sleeve... decoy waits til i say Los and then gives the dog a quick jerk into the sleeve... short and sharp and he usually only needs one reminder... 

the younger dog that i got as a pup and went to the defence force was outing very nicely from a tug when he left... but he would wait for the command even on a dead tug... and then he was nice and clean... i'm not sure what they did to him while he was away but when i got him back he would drop straight off a sleeve or tug as soon as it went dead, intentionally or not... and showed clear signs of handler conflict... i have been doing a lot of work with him where he hasn't had to out (always wins the sleeve and drops it on his own as the decoy is ready with another), and got him staying on a dead sleeve again... so i guess we had the opposite problem with him... his outs are now pretty good... and he has recently learnt a bark and hold... he was a little dirty and not wanting to give up the sleeve to begin with because he wasn't sure what was required of him, he has always been a fairly quiet dog and not barked much in training, i never pushed the issue because he always barks on the street... anyway it only took him 2 sessions to work out the B&H and how his outs are awesome even off a sleeve that still has a little fight in it and he will immediately launch into B&H with just a verbal Aus!

my older two dogs that came with prior training... the younger of that pair once again we had trouble getting him to stay on a bite... too much compulsion and pressure from decoys when younger... he is now a cranky little fscker and ramps up the fight as the decoy does... though he's never been in a real situation beyond muzzle fights and while i have every confidence he will take a live bite i know there is probably still a level he will reach where if the bad guy takes the fight back to him he will give up... i ended up using very low level E on him (12 on a 127 level dogtra) to clean up his out... it is not enough to trigger him into fighting harder but it is just enough to be uncomfortable and he already understood escape training and that the stim means pay attention to me as you're about to get a command, and the quicker compliance occurs the quicker the stim goes away... i had to switch to the E with this guy as he had major leash issues, would hit the end of one and crumble and head straight back to me if he was any distance away... and to begin with would even shut down if he had activated without me first taking up the slack in his leash and he hit the end of it from even 6", and would immediately stop and be quiet... his confidence has risen immensly since i bought him a tactical vest that spreads the pull of a leash over as large an area as possible and has now even reached a stage where he will pull into a pinch collar if i let him... but i am getting rather off topic... 

my old boy who is now almost 9 has had a lot of bad training, some of it mine, some of it from other handlers... he was my first mal over 5yr ago and my first properly serious dog, not counting the severely fear-aggressive rott i started out with about 10yr ago... he also spent a short time with a defence department and stuffed if i know what they did to him but he developed huge conflict on the out, and would just chew the shit out of the sleeve/suit and growl a lot but refuse to let go... another handler worked out the best way to deal with him was to give him another command such as sit or down, as for whatever reason he would spit whatever he was holding when given another command... so now instead of telling him to out i use sit and he will drop off the bite into a sit, so long as the decoy is not still fighting him... i'd never be able to out him off a live bite, he loves the fight too much, i would have to lift him off... but for training giving him something TO do (sit) instead of something NOT to do (don't touch the sleeve) worked quite well for him...


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## Phil Dodson

Amen to that Alice!!


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## Matt Vandart

Dave Colborn said:


> Great idea but I don't have one. Anyone?


I have a video of Sali having out problems, but it is not on a helper, is that any use?


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