# 15mos Beauce bloated - fed raw and owner did things right..



## Debbie Skinner

Yesterday around 5pm got a frantic call from the co-owner of a 15 month old female beauceron. Owner came home from being at a dog show for a few hours to find the female with a very large belly and feared she was bloating. Rushed to emergency vet because of course it's a holiday weekend and after hours..isn't it always with this kind of thing.. Vet agreed that she's in the first stages of bloat or x-rays showed torsion. She had her at the vet by about 5:30pm. The vet said it would be about a 1 hour surgery. Vet didn't do the surgery until around 9-10pm. I'm still trying to figure out why such a delay and have asked her to find out when she visits the dog this morning. I always thought doing surgery quickly was vital for success. 

Also, wondering if anyone has heard of such a young dog bloating when everything seemed to be normal in the dog's routine according to the co-owner: 

*The dog is fed raw one meal per day and grain-free EVO for the other meal. 

*Dog on the morning before ate her raw meal, but didn't eat her kibble. 

*Then yesterday morning didn't eat her raw and owner left for show and came back to find the dog bloated. 

**For me, it would of been a sign if one of my dogs didn't eat, but she says that many times this dog and a couple of her other dogs are "picky" and skip meals. 

*Dog was left in large play area that is completely shaded all day with her water and wading pool like always. 

*The dog had just came into season and that was the only thing different that I've been told. 

I've had one Beauceron torsion in 20 years and it was a 7 year old male that got into a bag of Euk and ate about 1/2 of it. The emergency vet operated immediately and the dog recovered. 

Maybe there's more that isn't known than is known about the cause of bloat. I went through the archives and didn't find a lot. Did read one post that said that a huge % of large breed dogs die of bloat and I am surprised to read this.

I'm thinking she must have had a predisposition to bloating. Her grandsire bloated at 6-7 years old (Seneque) and died. My dog that bloated years back was her great-great-grandsire, but other than that I don't know of other family members that have bloated. 

Fia's page (Cris really loves this dog) -http://www.pawsnclaws.us/fia_ped.htm

I was first thinking of an obstruction rather than bloat, but she says the vet showed her the x-rays and I don't live close by so have been getting only updates.


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## Debbie Skinner

anyone's experience with the after-care and insight would be appreciated.

Cris and Fia:


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## Kellie Wolverton

I have nothing as far as experience with bloat goes...but sure do hope all works out and Fila recovers quickly!

Kellie


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## Guest

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yesterday around 5pm got a frantic call from the co-owner of a 15 month old female beauceron. Owner came home from being at a dog show for a few hours to find the female with a very large belly and feared she was bloating. Rushed to emergency vet because of course it's a holiday weekend and after hours..isn't it always with this kind of thing.. Vet agreed that she's in the first stages of bloat or x-rays showed torsion. She had her at the vet by about 5:30pm. The vet said it would be about a 1 hour surgery. Vet didn't do the surgery until around 9-10pm. I'm still trying to figure out why such a delay and have asked her to find out when she visits the dog this morning. I always thought doing surgery quickly was vital for success.
> 
> Also, wondering if anyone has heard of such a young dog bloating when everything seemed to be normal in the dog's routine according to the co-owner:
> 
> *The dog is fed raw one meal per day and grain-free EVO for the other meal.
> 
> *Dog on the morning before ate her raw meal, but didn't eat her kibble.
> 
> *Then yesterday morning didn't eat her raw and owner left for show and came back to find the dog bloated.
> 
> **For me, it would of been a sign if one of my dogs didn't eat, but she says that many times this dog and a couple of her other dogs are "picky" and skip meals.
> 
> *Dog was left in large play area that is completely shaded all day with her water and wading pool like always.
> 
> *The dog had just came into season and that was the only thing different that I've been told.
> 
> I've had one Beauceron torsion in 20 years and it was a 7 year old male that got into a bag of Euk and ate about 1/2 of it. The emergency vet operated immediately and the dog recovered.
> 
> Maybe there's more that isn't known than is known about the cause of bloat. I went through the archives and didn't find a lot. Did read one post that said that a huge % of large breed dogs die of bloat and I am surprised to read this.
> 
> I'm thinking she must have had a predisposition to bloating. Her grandsire bloated at 6-7 years old (Seneque) and died. My dog that bloated years back was her great-great-grandsire, but other than that I don't know of other family members that have bloated.
> 
> Fia's page (Cris really loves this dog) -http://www.pawsnclaws.us/fia_ped.htm
> 
> I was first thinking of an obstruction rather than bloat, but she says the vet showed her the x-rays and I don't live close by so have been getting only updates.


 
What was done from the time the dog was seen till surgery later that night? anything to releive pressure, gas...?


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## Debbie Skinner

Jody Butler said:


> What was done from the time the dog was seen till surgery later that night? anything to releive pressure, gas...?


I'm trying to get those answers and hopefully Cris will call me back asap as she is down at the vet visiting Fia right now. I know she was put on iv meds but not sure what. Did say that they were able to relieve pressure first but the "how" hasn't been explained. Not sure if it would be similar as with cattle and a tube inserted or a syringe..


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## Connie Sutherland

About the delay before surgery: _"When the dog is presented to the hospital his condition is assessed. Blood samples are generally taken and tested to help determine the dog's status. Usually the animal is in shock, or predisposed to it, so intravenous catheters are placed and fluids are administered. Antibiotics and pain relievers may be given.

The air in the stomach is removed either by passing a stomach tube or inserting a large needle into the stomach and releasing the gas. After the animal is stabilized, x-rays are taken to help determine whether or not a volvulus is present.

Some dogs with GDV develop a bleeding disorder called disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC), in which small clots start to develop within the dog's blood vessels. To prevent or treat this condition, heparin, an anticoagulant, may be given.

The heart rate and rhythm are closely monitored. Some dogs with GDV develop heart arrhythmias, and this is a common cause of death in dogs with GDV. Dogs that already have a heart disease or are prone to heart arrythmias are generally treated with appropriate medications.

Once the dog is stabilized, abdominal surgery is usually indicated"_ ... from PetEducation.com (Doctors Foster and Smith)



_"I'm thinking she must have had a predisposition to bloating. Her grandsire bloated at 6-7 years old (Seneque) and died. "_


I've read that there's statistical increase in bloat probability of over 60% if a first-degree relative has had a bloat event, over 30% if a second-degree relative has had one. If I could find the article I'd refine the numbers. Might have been even higher. It was one of the Purdue research papers on non-diet factors for GDV. (Fear and anxiety as personality components were even higher-rated factors .... two to three times [200% to 300%] increase in vulnerability reported by Glickman based on the several-year study.)

Of course, a dog who had survived a bloat event wouldn't be bred, but often that ship has sailed by the time it happens.

_
"Maybe there's more that isn't known than is known about the cause of bloat."_

Yes, this is the usual immediate disclaimer near the beginning of most bloat research papers.


BTW, "fed raw" is different for me from "fed half raw and half kibble."

Raw-fed dogs are not exempt from bloat by any means. I just would probably not call a dog on one kibble meal a day "raw-fed."



Here's an overview of treatment: http://www.canismajor.com/dog/bloat.html#Treatment



I hope the dog does great. Please let us know! Bloat is frightening. I imagine that every one of us has known a bloat-victim owner. :-(


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## Debbie Skinner

She still hasn't gotten a ton of info, but when the vet went in he was able to untwist the stomach and the spleen and all the organs are fine. She said they used a new technique for tacking the stomach..something about going around the rib.


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## Debbie Skinner

I didn't mean to imply she was fed only, but was limited in the subject line and that's why I put the "...." and explained in detail in the topic. Sorry for the confusion. I've been trying and trying to get her to feed raw exclusively and give her the raw for free, but she doesn't have a freezer or space for one and so forth. 

Do you think that raw fed dogs don't bloat or bloat less? I've never had one bloat that was fed raw?

Fia won't be bred of course.


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## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> ... Do you think that raw fed dogs don't bloat or bloat less? I've never had one bloat that was fed raw?



Raw-fed dogs are not exempt from bloat by any means.


I do think that all-raw-fed dogs bloat far less often, but that's based on not much more than anecdotal (although broad) evidence. The stats are hard to compile. For one thing, there are far fewer raw-fed dogs, period. And to date there has been no study based on following a group of all-raw-fed dogs. (If anyone has seen one, I'd love a link.)


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## Maren Bell Jones

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yesterday around 5pm got a frantic call from the co-owner of a 15 month old female beauceron. Owner came home from being at a dog show for a few hours to find the female with a very large belly and feared she was bloating. Rushed to emergency vet because of course it's a holiday weekend and after hours..isn't it always with this kind of thing.. Vet agreed that she's in the first stages of bloat or x-rays showed torsion. She had her at the vet by about 5:30pm. The vet said it would be about a 1 hour surgery. Vet didn't do the surgery until around 9-10pm. I'm still trying to figure out why such a delay and have asked her to find out when she visits the dog this morning. I always thought doing surgery quickly was vital for success.


Before they do surgery, they will typically will want to get the dog on pain meds, either double peripheral (legs) or central (jugular) line catheters with lots of fluids going, radiographs, and bloodwork. They would likely try to pass a stomach tube. Then prepping for surgery for a large dog takes a considerable amount of time for anesthesia induction, clipping, and scrubbing. I could see it taking 3-4 hours from the time the owner walked in, especially if they had to page a surgeon to come in. I hope she does okay! Glad the owner was on the ball.


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## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Glad the owner was on the ball.



Yes. She probably saved the dog's life with quick action.


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## Debbie Skinner

Yes and $3,000 down payment had to be given before they would do anything for her at the clinic. We all hope Fia will recover.


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## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yes and $3,000 down payment had to be given before they would do anything for her at the clinic. We all hope Fia will recover.


Not surprised at the $3000 ..... still, gives me a shiver.


Please update us when you can.


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## Tanya Beka

Future prevention:

Making the dog eat slower
Swallowing as little air as possible when eating (ie: no gulping)
Resting at least 1 hour before and after meals
Feeding multiple smaller meals throughout the day vs. fewer larger ones
Adding water to kibble to soften it and slow down eating process
Mashing and spreading out raw food to slow downt he eating process
Preventing the dog from drinking a lot of water before or after meals
Not gorging on other food items (ie loaves of break, livestock grains etc)


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I had a GSD bitch that was subject to bloat every heat cycle. Two things to keep on hand---aloe vera juice and nutmeg. The last episode she was gulping air, stomach distended, aloe vera didn't work. Didn't think I could even make it to emergency center and uncomfortable with tubing. Went on Purdue site and saw nutmeg. Poured that with aloe vera. First she belched, then began to pass the most toxic smelling gas. Stomach gradually less hard/distended. Breeders didn't really want her spayed. I spayed her. No more bloat episodes for the rest of her life. Instead of food, consider stress/anxiety---known trigger. Heat cycles involve increased stess and anxiety--especially for my GSD bitch.


Terrasita


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## Sarah ten Bensel

My female bloated and I caught it early- likely less than 30 minutes from onset to vet. Sometimes it is just gonna happen. I was feeding her raw, knew her genetics (both parents bloated, one at age 10 , one at age three-both died from it), she was a nervous girl, too. I did all the things recommended in the above posts. My vet had one hypothesis with the deep chest that the pyloric spincter gets stretched and actually block the stomach contents from leaving, gas builds up and the torsion. Don't know of any research to back that up.
The question: do dogs that eat raw bloat less? Here is my thought, people that feed raw are not typical owners (at least the ones I have met), they have done their research and know about bloat and are possible more in tune with their dog than regular pet owners who just throw down Kibble X. I am not talking about members of WDF or working dog owners who feed just kibble (I feed just kibble). I have met many owners of dogs that are high on the list of susceptible breeds that didn't even know about bloat or what to look for or how to prevent it and feeding raw is not even a possibility. My point it anecdotally yes, raw feeders probably do bloat less but not necessarily because they feed raw, but because they are not ignorant about bloat. 

Anyway, best of luck on the youngsters recovery!


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## Laney Rein

Debbie

This July 2011 issue of Dog World had a whole section on bloat - with articles on why, etc as well as prevention, after care, etc. They are also, now, recommending a surgical stomach stapling in large breed or deep chested dogs prone to bloat through either spay incisions (if this is to be done) or I believe, lap surgery. Might want to check into it. 

As Tanya stated, after care is usually followed with smaller, more frequent meals, no abnormal exercise before or after meals, etc. I, too, lost a rottweiler to bloat many years ago, but chose to euth as she was 10 yo and the vet I was working for wanted to "experiment" on her as he had never performed bloat surgery before. 

They do say dogs that bloat once are more prone to it in the future, so this will be a dog to be on the look out in the future. Good Luck.


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## Jonathon Howard

Bloat surgery isnt usually that complicated its the stabilisation of the dog prior to surgery and post operative management that are complicated and what causes the dog to die.

The dog was most likely acidotic (blood acidic) due to lack of blood flow and oxygenation of the body tissues. If you anaesthetise a dog in this condition it dies. Therefore you need to pump fluids into the body via a intravenous drip at a high rate to restore blood pressure but at the same time not over do it. Once the dog is stabilised then you can begin surgery. This can take some time. 
They also decompress the stomach with a large bore needle. Upon doing this it releases toxins into the bloodstream enough to kill the dog sometimes. The blood electrolytes are usually so f-up as well to cause the body to shutdown. Hopefully having the right fluids buffers these effects.
Afterwards depending on how much of the stomach has died and needed to be removed affects the recovery. It takes a while for the body to restore proper electrolyte and blood chemistry balance.

Ontop of what has been listed in other posts of what predisposes to bloat others include:
- exercising to soon before or after being fed 
- a dog that gets too nervous/anxious/stressed (high proportion of dogs compared to normal population in quarantine in Australia get bloat)
- feeding off an elevated platform rather than the floor. Allows them to gulp down air
- overexercising 

glad the dog survived as mortality is high as soon as that dog walks through the vet door no matter how early.

cheers

Jon


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## Debbie Skinner

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Before they do surgery, they will typically will want to get the dog on pain meds, either double peripheral (legs) or central (jugular) line catheters with lots of fluids going, radiographs, and bloodwork. They would likely try to pass a stomach tube. Then prepping for surgery for a large dog takes a considerable amount of time for anesthesia induction, clipping, and scrubbing. I could see it taking 3-4 hours from the time the owner walked in, especially if they had to page a surgeon to come in. I hope she does okay! Glad the owner was on the ball.


Thanks for this. As I remember with my dog 10 years ago, I thought it was much faster. Thanks for explaining why it would be a few hours before the actual surgery. Cris will be picking her up this morning. Still hard to get the details as she's not a question asker of the vet.


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## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Not surprised at the $3000 ..... still, gives me a shiver.
> 
> 
> Please update us when you can.


I'm not surprised either as I just paid $5500 for 4 k9s to be crowned/jacketed on a Malinois last week...still vet care can really set one back.


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## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes. She probably saved the dog's life with quick action.


Yes, and she had a Dobie bitch that bloated before and has had dobies for years so is well aware of bloat.


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## Debbie Skinner

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I had a GSD bitch that was subject to bloat every heat cycle. Two things to keep on hand---aloe vera juice and nutmeg. The last episode she was gulping air, stomach distended, aloe vera didn't work. Didn't think I could even make it to emergency center and uncomfortable with tubing. Went on Purdue site and saw nutmeg. Poured that with aloe vera. First she belched, then began to pass the most toxic smelling gas. Stomach gradually less hard/distended. Breeders didn't really want her spayed. I spayed her. No more bloat episodes for the rest of her life. Instead of food, consider stress/anxiety---known trigger. Heat cycles involve increased stess and anxiety--especially for my GSD bitch.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


I think this was her first season and sort of late in life for a Beauceron..15 months old. She is the opposite of nervous though and such a confident dog in any situation..tail up, happy and greeting people and other dogs. I'm going to pass on all the information from this thread to Cris. 


Thanks everyone. Cris normally picks her up this morning from the emergency clinic.

I think I mentioned before too that there isn't and wasn't a plan to breed her even before the bloat. She was having fun showing her and competing in rally with her.


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## Tamara McIntosh

Debbie Skinner said:


> Also, wondering if anyone has heard of such a young dog bloating when everything seemed to be normal in the dog's routine according to the co-owner:


 
I had a bouvier bitch that would bloat every time she ate too much beef fat. It scared the bejesus outta me the first couple of times it happened, and we rushed her to the vet, etc. It took me a while to figure out what was causing the bloat, but after I did and corrected the issue she never bloated again. She never did torsion. 

She would get as big as a barrel and just moan, and after we gave her phasyme she would start to belch and fart, at which point she would be an outside dog until done, cause the gas was toxic!! 

I think the first time I saw the bloat in her she was just over a year. She had been raw fed from 10 weeks. Any switch in protein source caused her to be very gassy, but it was only the beef fat that would make her bloat in an instant. My husband inadvertantly tested the beef fat theory while i was away, and just didn't think about it and gave her some trimmings while butchering a cow, and he said within hours she was as big as a barrel.

Best of luck to this girl, it sure is a scarey thing to have to go thru!

PS - just out of curiosity.. why is she co-owned if she was never going to be bred?


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## Gina Pasieka

It has been a while since i have had to deal with dogs with bloat, as I don't do emergency medicine anymore, however I can tell you that we cut the dogs within 2 hours of arrival. Many times passing a stomach tube is not possible, as the stomach is twisted and being forceful with a tube in a stomach with less than ideal perfusion can result in perforation. Most will trocharize the stomach with a large gauge catheter to relieve the pressure, stabilize the patient metabolically (ie. perfusion, blood pressure, pH) and then off to surgery. Once they have bloated, the gastric and splenic ligaments have been stretched, so unfortunately they are risk for recurrent bloat. Tacking them prevents the torsion, but not the dilitation. The dilitation is much easier to deal with and not as life threatening however.
PS...in my neck of the woods a bloat would be about 5,000....so 3,000 seems very reasonable to me. Depends on geographical area. 
Best of luck to the little Beuce girl :-D


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## Debbie Skinner

Gina Pasieka said:


> It has been a while since i have had to deal with dogs with bloat, as I don't do emergency medicine anymore, however I can tell you that we cut the dogs within 2 hours of arrival. Many times passing a stomach tube is not possible, as the stomach is twisted and being forceful with a tube in a stomach with less than ideal perfusion can result in perforation. Most will trocharize the stomach with a large gauge catheter to relieve the pressure, stabilize the patient metabolically (ie. perfusion, blood pressure, pH) and then off to surgery. Once they have bloated, the gastric and splenic ligaments have been stretched, so unfortunately they are risk for recurrent bloat. Tacking them prevents the torsion, but not the dilitation. The dilitation is much easier to deal with and not as life threatening however.
> PS...in my neck of the woods a bloat would be about 5,000....so 3,000 seems very reasonable to me. Depends on geographical area.
> Best of luck to the little Beuce girl :-D


It was at least 4 hours before the surgery..that's what was confusing for me too. I know the dog was walking and wanting to lay in the kiddy pool and had an enlarged stomach when Cris arrived home and saw her. Walking is not Fia's gait normally as she's usually running and jumping and barking when her owner arrives so she knew something was up, but the dog was mobile. Not sure of the final price..the $3K was the deposit required before the surgery. I know the stomach was tacked, but it's like "pulling teeth" to get information out of her as she's too stressed and doesn't ask questions of the vet. Thanks.


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## Claire Poissonniez

Deja, Endine and I are sending good thoughts Fia's way. We hope she makes a speedy recovery and is feeling well very soon.


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## Debbie Skinner

Thanks everyone. Cris is picking her up now..noon check out. Everything seems very, very promising as of right now.


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## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> Cris is picking her up now..noon check out. Everything seems very, very promising as of right now.


What a huge relief!


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## Leslie Patterson

My dog had torsion and emergency surgery and had his stomach tacked. Caught it early, so there was no damage. That was I think in March 2007. I trialed him 2 or 3 months later..really he's been fine ever since but I switched him to raw after that, at the time I was feeding Orijen Fish. He is 8yrs old now.


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## Debbie Skinner

I'm going to encourage her to get a freezer so she can feed raw easier. I supply the food for free, but she needs a place to store it.

Final bill is in the $4700.00 range. I'm going through my med cabinet to get her the required take home meds to reduce the bill now. I buy cephelaxin, reglan much cheaper than they charge and pepsid is the same as what they wanted to charge her for as well.


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## Debbie Skinner

Tamara McIntosh said:


> .......
> 
> PS - just out of curiosity.. why is she co-owned if she was never going to be bred?


P.S.: It's good business. If I own, co-own a dog with someone, any expenses that I pay for (giving the dog, show expenses, handling fees, vet, food, brag ad, registration, certifications, etc.) are an expense that can be taken off taxes. It's a way to help the person who gets the puppy and it makes business sense as well. If I give away a puppy and do not co-own it then any $$ I put toward the dog cannot be a business expenses and doesn't fall under my corporation. I had decided not to breed Fia when she was little due to health problems in the line that were discovered recently. However, she's a fun dog and has a great personality which is not nearly common enough in Beaucerons (she is very, very confident and a great breed ambassador at Expos and Shows..tail up and head high..loves everyone and loves life). This is why it was so sad as she is a great dog .. just not a dog that we were going to breed.


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## Anne Jones

Just a note...

DO NOT not give a raw fed dog antacids! The dog needs the full quantity of stomache acids to the digest bones ect of a raw diet properly. 

Giving acid reducers will decrease the NEEDED acid to digest a raw diet & put the dog at risk for GI problems.


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Jones said:


> Just a note...
> 
> DO NOT not give a raw fed dog antacids!


That's a good note!


Not only is the dilution or neutralizing of stomach acid (by any means, including a lot of water just before or after the meal) a bloat-risk factor, but that caustic acid is also a major anti-pathogen-colonizing factor.

One of the two main weapons of dogs against food-borne pathogens is their extremely caustic stomach acid. (The other, of course, is that fast journey from one end to the other, unlike our own; the short fast trip through the dog doesn't give pathogens the leisurely opportunity to colonize that the human system does.) So two things that screw with the natural defenses of a scavenger against the likes of salmonella and e. coli are unnatural retardation of the speed through the G.I. tract, and neutralizing that caustic acid. 

If a dog requires antacids, I discontinue the raw diet during that protocol. JMO.

*It's simethicone (anti-gas) products you want to have on hand for gas symptoms -- not antacids.*


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## Kellie Wolverton

It's simethicone (anti-gas) products you want to have on hand for gas symptoms -- not antacids.[/QUOTE said:


> Good to know...thanks for the info.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Aloe vera juice was more effective than simethicone for mine.


T


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## Maren Bell Jones

I cannot see a benefit to aloe vera juice especially once the dog is actively bloating and in the process of twisting. I had heard of the simethicone thing too for years and I specifically asked two boarded soft tissue surgeons who cut a lot of GDVs if simethicone helps or not when my own dog had a suspicious gas pattern after some radiographs (he fortunately did not get GDV, just some gastroenteritis). They both said no, do not waste time dinking around (their words, not mine) trying to give your dog something by mouth that will likely be thrown up if the dog hasn't twisted and won't make it down to to the stomach if it is twisted instead of rushing absolutely ASAP to the vet. Makes sense to me... :-k


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> ... *It's simethicone (anti-gas) products you want to have on hand for gas symptoms -- not antacids.*



This is meant for gas. That is, a bout of gas that _could lead to _actual bloat.

Once the dog is actively bloating and in the process of twisting, the absolute priority IMHO is getting the dog to the vet. Whoever is with you can call ahead in the car on the way. Speed is of the essence. JMO, though.




eta

The O.P. asked for general insight and also aftercare.

Maybe these will offer some info:

http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm_
QUOTE: "If you believe your dog is experiencing bloat, please get your dog to a veterinarian immediately! Bloat can kill in less than an hour, so time is of the essence."_

http://www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/HealthConditions/SmallAnimalTopics/GastricDilatationVolvulus/


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## Debbie Skinner

I read the posts about antacids and feeding raw. I'll let her know as the vet has Fia on pepsid, which is an antacid. Vet also said feed bland food for now and low fat so she's giving her some baby food and not sure what else. I'll pass on the links and info as soon as she gets her internet up and working again too. Also, she has a fentanol (sp?) patch for pain and it makes her really groggy.


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## Tamara McIntosh

Debbie Skinner said:


> P.S.: It's good business. If I own, co-own a dog with someone, any expenses that I pay for (giving the dog, show expenses, handling fees, vet, food, brag ad, registration, certifications, etc.) are an expense that can be taken off taxes. It's a way to help the person who gets the puppy and it makes business sense as well. If I give away a puppy and do not co-own it then any $$ I put toward the dog cannot be a business expenses and doesn't fall under my corporation. I had decided not to breed Fia when she was little due to health problems in the line that were discovered recently. However, she's a fun dog and has a great personality which is not nearly common enough in Beaucerons (she is very, very confident and a great breed ambassador at Expos and Shows..tail up and head high..loves everyone and loves life). This is why it was so sad as she is a great dog .. just not a dog that we were going to breed.


Very interesting thanks for the reply!


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## Debbie Skinner

Tamara McIntosh said:


> Very interesting thanks for the reply!


You are welcome..also, forgot to add if I co-own then no one can breed the female and register puppies w/o my sign. Not a prob in this case as the co-owner is very ethical.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I cannot see a benefit to aloe vera juice especially once the dog is actively bloating and in the process of twisting. I had heard of the simethicone thing too for years and I specifically asked two boarded soft tissue surgeons who cut a lot of GDVs if simethicone helps or not when my own dog had a suspicious gas pattern after some radiographs (he fortunately did not get GDV, just some gastroenteritis). They both said no, do not waste time dinking around (their words, not mine) trying to give your dog something by mouth that will likely be thrown up if the dog hasn't twisted and won't make it down to to the stomach if it is twisted instead of rushing absolutely ASAP to the vet. Makes sense to me... :-k


 
Torsion is a separate process. I have had GSDs all my life and dealt with bloat with two. You have to know the early signs and act immediately. It begins with a gas process that becomes toxic. You can have bloat without torsion. My last episode, the bitch was swallowing air with distended hard abdomen. The actual symptoms start much earlier than most people think. The surgeons get them when its too late to do anything but surgery and your average surgeon human or animal knows nothing other than surgery. I got the nutmeg idea from the Purdue Veterinary site and it worked almost instantly. 

Terrasita


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## Debbie Skinner

I was googling nutmeg and bloat to get more info: 

_Nutmeg (Nutmeg can cause tremors, seizures, and central nervous system damage.)_ on http://www.animalpetsandfriends.com/Article/25-Human-Foods-Toxic-To-Dogs/300 and another link: http://lacetoleather.com/fataltodogs.html

I cannot find the Purdue information except for a couple sites where it's mentioned that many breeders do not find the Purdue Bloat study relevant or useful.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Debbie Skinner said:


> I was googling nutmeg and bloat to get more info:
> 
> _Nutmeg (Nutmeg can cause tremors, seizures, and central nervous system damage.)_ on http://www.animalpetsandfriends.com/Article/25-Human-Foods-Toxic-To-Dogs/300 and another link: http://lacetoleather.com/fataltodogs.html
> 
> I cannot find the Purdue information except for a couple sites where it's mentioned that many breeders do not find the Purdue Bloat study relevant or useful.


The nutmeg isn't daily use. This was for an acute episode and I would do it again. I tried getting the vet to tack the stomach as a prophylactic method which some have done but he wouldn't. The emergency vet is 20-30 minutes away. It was an issue of start something or risk losing her by stressing her even more driving her with the air gulping. You could see on her face she was confused as to what was happening. I used to keep reglan on hand. Have had several rushes to the vet---gas build up but no torsion and injectable 
Reglan given. Teva's last episode was before she was 5 and I spayed her. I lost her in 2008 at Age 10 to osteosarcoma. As for Purdue, GSD people lived by it for many years. Asta was the only one in her litter that didn't bloat by Age 2-3. The only thing I can differentiate, is that she never lived as a kennel dog and first sign of anything gastrointestinal I started prophylactic measures. The other dogs bloated in extreme temperatures and around heat cycles. Its been probably seven years since I've had to deal with this but the combination of the two helped her pass the gas and you literally see her stomach go down.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm

Most of the obections to the second Purdue study surround the idea of rendered meat meal with bone and citric acid as causes for bloat. The old study has still pretty much been followed in terms of stress, anxiety, diet as triggers as well as heritability/suceptibility. Web sites have changed or no longer exist. Most of everything I pulled up cited the 1/4 teaspoon of nutmeg. I stumbled upon the aloe vera juice from a human perspective and added it to Asta's food. You'll see the reference to the 1/4 teaspoon nutmeg above. Most of the sites I found said "large quantities or amounts" can be toxic. People go back and forth on the toxicity of garlic. All my dogs get garlic daily several months out of the year. Again, for me it worked. It didn't get to torsion although some gas was still evident on the x-ray. In terms of Asta and from what the breeder said, the other dogs were "off" in some respect 24-48 hours before the incident. 

Terrasita


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## Kellie Wolverton

How is the dog doing? I hope well!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]_Some report relief of gas symptoms with 1/2 tsp of nutmeg* or the homeopathic remedy Nux moschata 30*_[/FONT]


So all I have to do is give the dying dog an infinitesimally small dilution of nutmeg in water and they'll be cured? Sounds like good sound medical advice to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Was that from the GlobalSpan link?

If so, that's the last time I will ever link anyone to that page.

There's a lot of useful info on that page and I've linked people to it as an overview. Hadn't noticed that 
tidbit.  

Something like that pretty much negates it for me.

JMO.



eta

For me, the "law of similars" is a BS category all by itself -- not interchangeable (the way it's sometimes presented) with holistic medicine.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So all I have to do is give the dying dog an infinitesimally small dilution of nutmeg in water and they'll be cured? Sounds like good sound medical advice to me...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Nahhhhhh, you could stress it further with rush hour traffic and hope it doesn't die on its way to the vet like some do. Orrrrr, even though you opted for the $4000 surgery, there was so much damage do to time, dog dies anyway. I've spent my share of money in the emergency room and won't hesitate to get them there and spend it. As was posted, there's no guarantee how soon they will act to save the dog. I knew my dog and knew how the situation presents. I knew if it was going to work, it was going to work in a matter of minutes which it did--faster than me getting a dog gulping air and pacing, out the door and into the car. I know this is something you'll never be able to appreciate.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> Was that from the GlobalSpan link?
> 
> If so, that's the last time I will ever link anyone to that page.
> 
> There's a lot of useful info on that page and I've linked people to it as an overview. Hadn't noticed that
> tidbit.
> 
> Something like that pretty much negates it for me.
> 
> JMO.
> 
> 
> 
> eta
> 
> For me, the "law of similars" is a BS category all by itself -- not interchangeable (the way it's sometimes presented) with holistic medicine.


That was an example link. The nutmeg reference is in many sites.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> Was that from the GlobalSpan link?
> 
> If so, that's the last time I will ever link anyone to that page.
> 
> There's a lot of useful info on that page and I've linked people to it as an overview. Hadn't noticed that
> tidbit.
> 
> Something like that pretty much negates it for me.
> 
> JMO.
> 
> 
> 
> eta
> 
> For me, the "law of similars" is a BS category all by itself -- not interchangeable (the way it's sometimes presented) with holistic medicine.


Interesting that you find it valuable for other things but now its totally discounted because of that tidbit of information. I'm a little different. I didn't care whether they called it holistic, homeopathic or voodoo. In a tight situation, I had nothing to loose. It worked. Dog within minutes began passing toxic gas, stopped gulping air and distention decreased; especially with the ER saying--don't know how long it will take to get her in. But for the biased, I guess you can put all faith in the car ride and that the vet will have time to act immediately instead of the wait your turn approach.


Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Interesting that you find it valuable for other things but now its totally discounted because of that tidbit of information. I'm a little different. I didn't care whether they called it holistic, homeopathic or voodoo. In a tight situation, I had nothing to loose. It worked. Dog within minutes began passing toxic gas, stopped gulping air and distention decreased; especially with the ER saying--don't know how long it will take to get her in. But for the biased, I guess you can put all faith in the car ride and that the vet will have time to act immediately instead of the wait your turn approach.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


I think we're having two different conversations. It happens every time I mention homeopathy and its law of similars. 

I was replying to Maren's mention of the homeopathic remedy (directly above my post) ... NOT your post about using real nutmeg.

_I don't mean the real nutmeg. _ I don't know its properties, and I wasn't talking about it. I meant the same thing that Maren's post has in bold: the homeopathic remedy .... NOT the actual nutmeg that you used in measurable quantity.


Homeopathy uses very very dilute preparations. Dilution can actually be repeated until none of the original herb or whatever remains in the water. In other words: magic.

Holistic medicine is a term for integrative medicine (addresses the whole person -- not just the disease). Herbal medicine is what it sounds like. Both have foundations in reality, IMO, and both are vast resources.

Homeopathy is often used loosely to mean holistic medicine. But it's not. _The basis of homeopathy is the so-called law of similars. _ It's very difficult to find an explanation of the law of similars that makes sense to many people, I believe.

Again, I was not referring to the real nutmeg that you talked about. I referred to Maren's mention of the highly dilute homeopathic remedy, which is related to the actual nutmeg you used in name only.

_"Interesting that you find it valuable for other things but now its totally discounted because of that tidbit of information. I'm a little different. I didn't care whether they called it holistic, homeopathic or voodoo. In a tight situation, I had nothing to loose. It worked. Dog within minutes began passing toxic gas, stopped gulping air and distention decreased; especially with the ER saying--don't know how long it will take to get her in. But for the biased, I guess you can put all faith in the car ride and that the vet will have time to act immediately instead of the wait your turn approach."_

I didn't say ANY of this! Please look at my post again. It derides ONLY the aforementioned homeopathic preparation (which you did not use and which had nothing to do with your post). I didn't say the nutmeg was silly or useless or anything else. I didn't MENTION the nutmeg.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Okay. I understand. I don't know how this got to homeopathy and the ridiculous video I didn't watch. Use of the nutmeg or aloe vera juice has nothing to do with homeopathy and dilution which is what Maren compared it to with the whole nutmeg in water thing. I didn't mix it with water. I mixed it with aloe vera juice. You're right its much more akin to herbal medicine. Then's there's the sarcasm regarding the dying dog reference and medical advice. Nice flair for the dramatic as usual. Seems to me there needs to be some explanation for the long wait. Maybe the vet likes to wait for the $4000 nothing but surgery will do moment. My vet always said to do whatever I can to shut down the gas. So for Asta we kept Reglan, full strength simethicone, and made dietary adjustments . The thread began with discussing triggers and the reference to raw feeding. As I said, diet isn't the only trigger. Stress/anxiety are huge. Heat cycles can be be a bloat stress trigger---as they were with Teva. Once I spayed her, she never had another episode that I can think of and she only had them around a heat cycle before. She would look at her food and look as if she were ill--nauseous and then walk away from it. She ws a chow hound. That's a sign---altered eating habits or was for her. A couple of Asta's litter mates bloated around heat cycles, living outside in kennels during the summer. A couple of males from the same kennel bloated while there were bitches in heat in the kennel. 


Terrasita


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> A couple of Asta's litter mates bloated around heat cycles, living outside in kennels during the summer. A couple of males from the same kennel bloated while there were bitches in heat in the kennel.
> 
> Terrasita


really firms up the genetic aspect of it, doesn't it...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well, from the human perspective, I've lived with asthma and I tested allergic to everything in the physical environment. Doctor #1 proposed 5 different drugs--2 of which were steroids. MD/Holistic/Homeopathic from Europe proposed to start--homeopathic along with the supplements I was already taking. Have to admit ---saw improvement. Meanwhile, runs blood work and finds two other nutritional deficiencies--so deficient almost non-existent. Now he wants me to take homeopathic along with mega dosages of the missing nutrients. Both of these are known to affect air supply/transport for want of a better phrase. Inform Doctor #2 of the blood test results. She's sooooo uninterested and comes out with her usual bag of drugs. Having now gotten the nutritional deficiencies at optimum levels, I've actually faded out the homeopathic, and one nutritional supplement and I went from daily dependence on an inhaler or two to rarely using one. A friend of mine who was a former lab scientist also had the same experience [different issues] so we don't cry hokey anymore. I don't know whether diluted nutmeg would be just as effective. Trouble with those is that they are best taken sublingual-hard to do in a dog. 

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> ... Use of the nutmeg or aloe vera juice has nothing to do with homeopathy and dilution which is what Maren compared it to with the whole nutmeg in water thing. I didn't mix it with water. I mixed it with aloe vera juice. You're right its much more akin to herbal medicine. ... Terrasita


The "nutmeg in water" meant the homeopathic dilution.... from the GlobalSpan site. Maren was quoting the site. I was answering her.

I think Maren's remark was about the homeopathic dilution as a total waste of time, and I KNOW that's what my post was about. 
_
"You're right its much more akin to herbal medicine." _ 'Zackly. 

Again, I'm not up on the properties of nutmeg, but my scorn was not related to real nutmeg or any real herb or chemical or med. Or even your post, for that matter. I'm sorry it looked like that.


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## Connie Sutherland

Here's another problem with homeopathy: There are real full-strength preparations that are occasionally lumped in under "homeopathic" when where they belong is "herbal."

Unless the actual preparation is named, I don't rely on the terms any more. They're very loosely intermingled nowadays.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> really firms up the genetic aspect of it, doesn't it...


 Oh yeah, it was hugely genetic as far as susceptibility but I was able to avoid it with a very watchful eye and environmental controls. I actually traced it several generations back to a particular popular stud dog and how it popped up depending upon how he was bred and particularly linebred. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> Here's another problem with homeopathy: There are real full-strength preparations that are occasionally lumped in under "homeopathic" when where they belong is "herbal."
> 
> Unless the actual preparation is named, I don't rely on the terms any more. They're very loosely intermingled nowadays.


 
Yeah, I have't given it too much time. I had trouble with the strength theory--C, X. I understand your terms madness. I'm just more given to the herbal side; whereas some of my friends do homeopathic or both. I don't judge but do what works for me. I don't know that the diluted amount wouldn't work just as well as the full strength.

T


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh yeah, it was hugely genetic as far as susceptibility but I was able to avoid it with a very watchful eye and environmental controls. I actually traced it several generations back to a particular popular stud dog and how it popped up depending upon how he was bred and particularly linebred.
> 
> Terrasita


Had your bloat dog had a first-degree relative who bloated? Or how close?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> Had your bloat dog had a first-degree relative who bloated? Or how close?


 
It was like it was all of them to tell you the truth. Several half sibilings bloated by age 2 and a couple of Asta's littermates as well. There were early bloaters [Age 2 and before] and later [Age 5-8]. That tossed in with the dysplasia made it pretty nightmarish. Its the baby and bathwater theory at work when you look at the pedigree.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Oh I forgot, Teva's dam bloated in season and her litter sister bloated in whelp and died two weeks before I spayed her. Also from a genetic standpoint, through the dam you find breeding on on the same popular stud dog and even more so. But he wasn't the only one either. With all three you have a reproductive/hormonal trigger.


Terrasita


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## Debbie Skinner

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> .......Seems to me there needs to be some explanation for the long wait. Maybe the vet likes to wait for the $4000 nothing but surgery will do moment. My vet always said to do whatever I can to shut down the gas.... Terrasita


Actually $4700+. I still have no explanation, but I "feel" it was to ensure a large bill. This is actually the 3rd dog that the owner has gone through bloat surgery with. 2 prior were Dobies so I really feel for her situation. My suggestion as co-owner was that when the original quote was given $2200-$5500 was to negotiate and settle on the lower with a payment plan (4 payments over 4 months) or pts (statement to show that we are not at their mercy for whatever price they wanted to throw out). My friend that co-breeds suggested to shop the price at the other local emergency vet since they were waiting anyways. Originally I thought she was going to give Gas-X as she called a local friend to see if she had any. Not sure if she stopped and bought any on the way to Emergency. I think she drove to the vet direct w/o stopping for fear of the dog. The clinic told her that if it was a simple straightforward surgery the price would be at the low end. However, even though the surgery was and they said how it was w/o complications, somehow the bill was $4700.00. Again I still don't know the reason for the delay really as she gave a credit card withing 45 minutes of being there and then over 3 hours past at least before the start of surgery. I was 1 1/2 hours drive away and couldn't be their personally as it was Memorial weekend which is a big boading weekend. Another friend was there. A lot of advice and support was given on the phone, etc. but the decisions were hers and thus the bill too regretfully. After 20 years, and many dogs, I do not get emotional at vets and don't get sucked in to paying a huge bill anymore as there is a limit to what I'll pay to try and save a dog. I cannot afford to go in debt to save one dog and then be in a position to not take good care of my other animals. Wish I could have unlimited funds, but I don't.

I know if I went with my first quote for root canals and jacketing/crowns for Bexter's 4 canines, I'd of paid $9500. 2nd was $7500. 3rd was $5500 and I went with him rather reluctantly because it's 1/2 that in France, but then you have to factor in the 3-4 week stay required to get it done over there. Bexter's turnaround time was 10 days here and it was local to the trainer's home. We saved up the $$ for months in a fund to fix Bexter's teeth so it wasn't debt.

Fia is doing well now and recovering so far on schedule. She'll be spayed once she's finished playing in the conformation ring with her. I am concerned about her heart, as her dam (French import) was diagnosed with a heart some time after whelping that litter (her last). Fia at this time is unaffected, but bloat puts a strain on the heart. Dam has Cardiomyopathy and is on medication. I import a female for new blood and I get tainted blood imo. Dam's sire is the one that bloated too after being bred a bunch.


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## Connie Sutherland

_"Fia is doing well now and recovering so far on schedule."

_

Good news!


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## Claire Poissonniez

I'm assuming this was the emergency vet in Poway? My parents have taken their accident-prone pit bull there for a rattlesnake bite, rat poison incident and tetanus. Every time he has received excellent care and pulled through when the odds were against him, but it sure was pricey!

Glad to hear that Fia is doing better. Wishing her well.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I'm assuming this was the emergency vet in Poway? My parents have taken their accident-prone pit bull there for a rattlesnake bite, rat poison incident and tetanus. Every time he has received excellent care and pulled through when the odds were against him, but it sure was pricey!
> 
> Glad to hear that Fia is doing better. Wishing her well.


I believe in Ramona and there are 2 and it's the other one that a GSD breeder/owner got a fair price for torsion surgery after haggling a bit..went down by over 1/2 the price so there is room for negotiation. Everyone of us with dogs as a hobby and companions do not need to be raked over the coals for one procedure when we have multiple dogs to think about.


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## Debbie Skinner

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh I forgot, Teva's dam bloated in season and her litter sister bloated in whelp and died two weeks before I spayed her. Also from a genetic standpoint, through the dam you find breeding on on the same popular stud dog and even more so. But he wasn't the only one either. With all three you have a reproductive/hormonal trigger.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


It's seems to be the case with Fia as well as she was in season at the time.


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## Debbie Skinner

I would love to see what the $2200 vs the $5500 entailed since the vet said it was very straightforward, no complications, all tissue including the spleen in excellent condition and nothing out of the ordinary. I believe the cost should of been closer to the $2200 or how could they quote that as the low end for torsion surgery and then boom it was $4700 when they were given free range and a credit card.. I don't like people being taken advantage of when they are stressed about their pet. I do not have any proof, but things don't add up right imo. The length of time they waited, the bump in price. Oh and after the surgery the next morning on the phone, she was told $1800 because everything went well (forgot to add that). Then when she came to get the dog, that had been an error supposedly and it was suddenly $4700. She was told the the person on the phone misspoke. Sorry for taking my own thread off topic a bit as the price isn't really the focus..just bothersome..


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> I would love to see what the $2200 vs the $5500 entailed since the vet said it was very straightforward, no complications, all tissue including the spleen in excellent condition and nothing out of the ordinary. I believe the cost should of been closer to the $2200 or how could they quote that as the low end for torsion surgery and then boom it was $4700 when they were given free range and a credit card.. I don't like people being taken advantage of when they are stressed about their pet. I do not have any proof, but things don't add up right imo. The length of time they waited, the bump in price. Oh and after the surgery the next morning on the phone, she was told $1800 because everything went well (forgot to add that). Then when she came to get the dog, that had been an error supposedly and it was suddenly $4700. She was told the the person on the phone misspoke. Sorry for taking my own thread off topic a bit as the price isn't really the focus..just bothersome..


Will she show you the itemized bill, do you think?


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## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Will she show you the itemized bill, do you think?


yes she will, but they didn't itemize the original quote..the $2200-$5500 and why the difference, etc.:-?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> yes she will, but they didn't itemize the original quote..the $2200-$5500 and why the difference, etc.:-?



It might be apparent when you have the bill, though.


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## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> It might be apparent when you have the bill, though.


It will be obvious what the final bill was of course and it's itemization. However, what I meant was I will never know how they came up with the low end estimate of $2200 and high range of $5500 for the torsion surgery as there was no itemized quote provided at the beginning for these..just verbal quotes and statements. Also, how when the surgery was simple and w/o complications, the cost ended up being just $800 shy of the highend estimate which was for complications.


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## Ben Thompson

$4700...do you think the surgery is worth that much?? That was four thousand seven hundred right?


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## Debbie Skinner

Ben Thompson said:


> $4700...do you think the surgery is worth that much?? That was four thousand seven hundred right?


I think you've missed some of the posts if you are asking.


----------



## Ben Thompson

Debbie Skinner said:


> I think you've missed some of the posts if you are asking.


$4700....dang..hehehehehhehe


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## Debbie Skinner

Ben Thompson said:


> $4700....dang..hehehehehhehe



:roll:


----------



## Ben Thompson

Debbie Skinner said:


> :roll:


 Debbie it was very generous of you two to spend that kind of money on a dog that was sick. But there has to be financial limits.... or your dream of keeping the animals you like can turn into a nightmare.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Ben Thompson said:


> Debbie it was very generous of you two to spend that kind of money on a dog that was sick. But there has to be financial limits.... or your dream of keeping the animals you like can turn into a nightmare.


What are you talking about? 

Again I suggest reading the thread and my posts. I think your heheh comment is very inconsiderate for the co-owner that has raised Fia from a pup and paid for the surgery. I will summerize it a bit, I paid for Bexter's teeth to be jacketed after visiting 3 vets and getting a price I could live with. Bexter is going to compete in ring with Tim Welch and is also a proven stud dog. Tim has been training him for about 1 year now and he has most of the program, but I got the dog back with 4 broken k9s. This is what I paid for. 

I was asking for info on bloat and torsion to help and to better understand torsion and it's causes and also to give the co-owner info on how to procede from here with Fia's care. I provided some meds that I had on hand to reduce the bill.


----------



## Ben Thompson

Debbie Skinner said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Again I suggest reading the thread and my posts. I think your heheh comment is very inconsiderate for the co-owner that has raised Fia from a pup and paid for the surgery. I will summerize it a bit, I paid for Bexter's teeth to be jacketed after visiting 3 vets and getting a price I could live with. Bexter is going to compete in ring with Tim Welch and is also a proven stud dog. Tim has been training him for about 1 year now and he has most of the program, but I got the dog back with 4 broken k9s. This is what I paid for.
> 
> I was asking for info on bloat and torsion to help and to better understand torsion and it's causes and also to give the co-owner info on how to procede from here with Fia's care. I provided some meds that I had on hand to reduce the bill.


 Your right that was rude I appoligize for that. I thought the bloated dog was yours for some reason.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Ben Thompson said:


> Your right that was rude I appoligize for that. I thought the bloated dog was yours for some reason.


It's a co-owned female, which my posts say on a couple occassions. 

Would it of been less rude if it was solely my dog? <sigh> 

$4700 would be a lot for me to pay on one procedure for one dog, but I have 6 dogs to consider and not unlimited funds. However, it is doable for me. Have I paid that and more at the vet for one dog?..Answer "yes" on one account (teeth). Several times through the years in the $2K-$3K range.

It was a lot for the co-owner, and possibly would be for you as well, but not for everyone. Some put a lot of importance on saving their dog at whatever the cost (their personal choice), some have insurance, some folks are richer and $4700 is nothing. 

I received a lot of useful information from many of the posters on this thread..just not from your posts. 

Hopefully you were just having a bad day and decided to strike out on the internet as some do as they feel it's "their safe place" and really do not have that kind of personality that was expressed in your posts.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Debbie Skinner said:


> It will be obvious what the final bill was of course and it's itemization. However, what I meant was I will never know how they came up with the low end estimate of $2200 and high range of $5500 for the torsion surgery as there was no itemized quote provided at the beginning for these..just verbal quotes and statements. Also, how when the surgery was simple and w/o complications, the cost ended up being just $800 shy of the highend estimate which was for complications.


HI Debbie

I'd say the co owner got screwed. 2K to 5.5K is too much of a range and $4,700 is way too much for a torsion surgery with no complications. I'm lucky to have a Vet who does only what is needed, is open to alternative treatments and charges reasonable prices. Unfortunately there aren't many
of those left :-(


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Debbie
> 
> I'd say the co owner got screwed. 2K to 5.5K is too much of a range and $4,700 is way too much for a torsion surgery with no complications. I'm lucky to have a Vet who does only what is needed, is open to alternative treatments and charges reasonable prices. Unfortunately there aren't many
> of those left :-(


I wanted to negotiate to $2200 and split the cost with the co-owner..they definitely saw her coming and played on her emotions. I agree that the price she paid is not reasonable. It's not like their clinic was busy..I think one other dog came in after that.

I know just like with doctor and hospital bills, it's up for negotiation.


----------



## Ben Thompson

Debbie Skinner said:


> It's a co-owned female, which my posts say on a couple occassions.
> 
> Would it of been less rude if it was solely my dog? <sigh>
> 
> $4700 would be a lot for me to pay on one procedure for one dog, but I have 6 dogs to consider and not unlimited funds. However, it is doable for me. Have I paid that and more at the vet for one dog?..Answer "yes" on one account (teeth). Several times through the years in the $2K-$3K range.
> 
> It was a lot for the co-owner, and possibly would be for you as well, but not for everyone. Some put a lot of importance on saving their dog at whatever the cost (their personal choice), some have insurance, some folks are richer and $4700 is nothing.
> 
> I received a lot of useful information from many of the posters on this thread..just not from your posts.
> 
> Hopefully you were just having a bad day and decided to strike out on the internet as some do as they feel it's "their safe place" and really do not have that kind of personality that was expressed in your posts.


I don't think I was being any more rude then you are now...but maybe I just come across that way on the internet.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't think I was being any more rude then you are now...but maybe I just come across that way on the internet.



:?:Anything to contribute as far as information regarding bloat and torsion?


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## Jenny Thorp

Hi Debbie,

Hope Fia is continuing to do well.

Not sure if you came across this article during your search but I thought I'd send it your way :

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/sagastro/genrev/revgdv.htm


Jenny


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## Debbie Skinner

Jenny Thorp said:


> Hi Debbie,
> 
> Hope Fia is continuing to do well.
> 
> Not sure if you came across this article during your search but I thought I'd send it your way :
> 
> http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/sagastro/genrev/revgdv.htm
> 
> 
> Jenny


Thanks. I'm hoping Cris has her internet up now so I can share all the info. I'll see her tomorrow. So far she is doing well.


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