# Table Training



## Guest (Jun 1, 2006)

Hello All,

My name is Steve Leigh, I ran a dog training business for 21 years, beginning in 1981.

In 1991, Gene England invented table training. Within a few weeks, I built a 1000 sq. ft. room for tables.

I used tables constantly from 1991 to 2002. I've trained well over 1000 dogs on tables (under contract), and tested/worked ~ 5000 more dogs.

For those of you wallowing in utter confusion, TABLES ARE NOTHING. They're inert wooden/metal pieces of equipment - which rely *100%* on what the "helper" chooses to do or not do.

Consider this concept: tables are NOT tables - they're ecollars. Anyone who desires can get their hands on them. What they DO with them is the entire issue.

****MOD EDIT****



Steve Leigh


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

QUOTE: Anyone who desires can get their hands on them. What they DO with them is the entire issue. END

Good point, IMO, and one that's probably true of every training tool in existence.

P.S. Welcome!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Welcome to the forum Steve, I've viewed your website many times in the past 

Now, since this is a touchy subject for some people, I don't have to tell everyone to keep it civil (people civil not dog civil :lol, so no name calling or slander, just good quality discussion. I'm hoping that perhaps this thread can educate those of us who know little about table training and perhaps become a reference for those who don't know what it's all about... whatever the consensus will be.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Oke, seen the vids and didn´t read the other **** edit to my own post: also mods have to stay civil...helaas...rare jongens die amerikanen.. ( :roll: :roll: geezzz pleazzz let both sides get a live...). For me this use of the table is like the one Jerry and Gregg discribed in the other thread, just another way to agitate, like poal(?) work..nothing wrong with this..just like I said in the other topic.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I've seen them and what do you mean by (wrecked ) ???


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I've seen them and what do you mean by (wrecked ) ???


I think that was just sarcasm on his part, Jerry. :wink:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I thought so too. What I saw looked good to me. :lol:


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I've seen them and what do you mean by (wrecked ) ???


As I've been accused of "wrecking dogs" ..... the term is pure sarcasm.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I thought so too. What I saw looked good to me. :lol:


My website analyzer shows every hit - including the videos.

I'm sorry to see that none of the table videos have been viewed today ....

I'm sincere - I'd like *anyone, anywhere* to watch them, and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I've even got one of my own 10 week old puppy - on the round table - biting AND outing on his 3rd session - with no corrections whatsoever.

I'm listening ........


Steve


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Steve Leigh said:


> Jerry Lyda said:
> 
> 
> > I thought so too. What I saw looked good to me. :lol:
> ...


Steve, my guess is that--given that you've already taken a shot at Jerry, who is a table advocate, and that you're daring people to critique you--that only a sucker (or me) would respond to you if you're operating this way in this forum. We're a pretty laid-back crowd, we're very open about wanting to learn and share, and we tend to "like" each other, for what it is worth, even when we disagree with each other. Just my opinion, and one I may regret voicing, but you are coming on mighty strong for someone who just started posting today. Nobody's going to come out here and attack you, even if they disagree with you...I guess my question for you is...what happens if someone disagrees with you, and offers up valid, informed critique based on their own experiences and opinions? If that results in a flame war and attacks on their character and potential harassment, yeah, it's going to be a quiet room for you.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Steve Leigh said:


> My website analyzer shows every hit - including the videos.
> 
> I'm sorry to see that none of the table videos have been viewed today ....
> 
> ...


I saw 1 and i believe 8, and have given my comment..I really start to dislike your tone, I would suggest as a mod to cool it down.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Leigh said:


> .......... if anyone has the nerve to view the videos and respond......



I think maybe it was this sentence that might have given some of the "softer" members (me) a queasy feeling. 

Them's fightin' words.  

And I'd like to add that it is possible that forum members could have seen Steve's videos on a different day. I understand that several members here were aware of and have viewed the site in the past. The fact that I just discovered it yesterday doesn't mean that the whole forum did too.

So let's do what the forum owner requests: Let's keep this civil (people civil -- not dog civil), and what Selena suggests: Cool it down.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2006)

*No Offense*

I meant no offense to anyone by my messages.

Having lived and breathed tables for ~11 years, I admit I'm pretty well polarized in my opinions.

I didn't mean to challenge anyone. If my statements were taken that way, I apologize.

I feel that the more people that watch the videos, the less questions will arise. 

Steve


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Oke Steve :wink:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

As is often said, opinions are like,....... well you get my drift, I certainly have mine and I stated it in the first thread. I think table training is counter-productive. A dog makes a choice from a list of one. Not much of a choice. Having limited choices can sure make a very unreliable dog. That may be ok for sport, but what I train for is not a sport. As for the "invention" of table training, I was introduced to it long before 1981 and I had never heard of the person you mentioned. 

DFrost


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

I viewed your site and couldn't get past your sarcasm and genuine disdain for certain people long enough to understand your point. In fact, I don't think you made one.

I have a background in communications, specializing in interpersonal. If you have a message worth conveying, I would suggest you do it in a manner which does alienate your audience. You have a lot of experience on this topic; wouldn't it be more productive to simply discuss your experiences and ideology? I'm interested in that, but not in your dislike of a few individuals.

As for table training: I can see how it could be easier on the decoy. However, I have serious visions of my dog slipping and injuring himself. I don't think I'd let anyone put him on a table...Does it ever happen the dogs tries to avoid the situation and gets hurt? Or is that a moot point since a dog who is likely to avoid shouldn't be up on the table in the first place?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

My dog fell off the table but not from trying to get away but trying to get closer. He didn't get hurt.
Steve I *DID* view your videos and I liked what I saw. On this forum you are coming on strong and that's ok with me but maybe this isn't the place or the time to do it. (Pick your battles.)
Keep posting, we can learn from you and you can learn from us. No man has all the answers.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Steve, been to your thread and the dogs look impressive indeed. Somehow you made your points clear to the most that you can. I just don't see why you have to be so sarcastic in dealing with people who disagrees with you. You see, no matter how you do things "right", there's always somebody somehow somewhere who's going to disagree with you, with or without good reason. You just have to start living with that. For as long as you and a lot others have benefitted from what you do, dwell on that and not what others think. That is, if you want to survive. 

I work on tables, chairs, ladders, cans, CHBs, rubber tires, and whatever junk or structure I see and I had fantastic experience using them. The trust, bond, character and confidence building I generate from the dogs (which for me is the main purpose for training) are priceless. But then I am aware not all dogs are up to these, yet I don't call them bad dogs. I can't help people having a negative impression of the exercises we do no matter how good the results may be. Mostly these negative impressions are the complete opposite of what it really is. So who cares?

Best regards...


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Mr. England did not invent table training. He may have popularized it in this country in recent history but I've heard of dog trainers from Germany talking about using tables 40-50 years ago. It's probably older than that. 

There are many forms of the table. It's used for bite work, actually there are a couple of different shapes it takes, it's used for OB work (especially with small dogs - to save the handler's back) and it's used for training the forced retrieve. There are probably other uses as well. One way it works is by limiting the dog's options. 

Like any tool it can be used properly or it can be abused. When abused it takes the form of agitating a dog who really doesn't have what it takes to bite and when he fails to engage, the decoy knocks him off the table. The dog can't get back on it and he strangles. At the point where he's about to lose consciousness, he's helped back onto the table. If he still won't bite the decoy this is repeated until the dog learns that if he bites he doesn't get knocked off the table and he's spared from a near death experience by strangling. 

I've never felt the need to use one. 

But I do have one question. Why is that that tables used for bite work are always set up inside of buildings where a casual passer-by could not observe how they're being used? If nothing untoward happens, why not do it in the open? That's where most other forms of dog training take place.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Steve, try and be nice here. I have seen you booted off too many boards for your over the top responses. Most of the time you quote a lot of credentials to people that are not nice posters. Please don't do that here. 

The other thing that disturbs me is how much time you spent on your site just to make fun of Ed Frawley and Lou Castle. That is a bit scary. I don't care for how spastic Ed can get on his board, and Lou can really type up a storm for sure. I have talked to Lou, and really enjoyed the time that we talked. Never talked to Ed, but I would, even if he is a bit spastic in responses sometimes. :twisted: Either way, I would never even think to put up pages and pages about another person no matter what I thought of them. Just wrong.

Now, having said all that, hope to hear some different ideas on all the stuff we talk about here. Just don't talk about table training. You are too spastic on that subject.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Like any tool it can be used properly or it can be abused. When abused it takes the form of agitating a dog who really doesn't have what it takes to bite and when he fails to engage, the decoy knocks him off the table. The dog can't get back on it and he strangles. At the point where he's about to lose consciousness, he's helped back onto the table. If he still won't bite the decoy this is repeated until the dog learns that if he bites he doesn't get knocked off the table and he's spared from a near death experience by strangling. .


This is what I was thinking. I just know how all over the place my dog can be when he's on the sleeve. If the helper were not to be paying attention, the dog could very easily slip and hurt himself. I know I'm just an anxious furmommy, but I am always concerned about not stressing my dog's hips (moreso now that I have a dog with HD). It would just make me seriously nervous.

Al, I think you're using all of those things in a different manner from other dog training. Am I right in assuming your dogs are never tethered to the objects you train them to bite on? You simply have them bite in all manners of ways on all manners of terrain to increase the chances that they will protect their handlers regardless of the situation? BTW I think what you do with teh dogs is just fantastic! Your pictures are amazing...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Al, I think you're using all of those things in a different manner from other dog training. Am I right in assuming your dogs are never tethered to the objects you train them to bite on? You simply have them bite in all manners of ways on all manners of terrain to increase the chances that they will protect their handlers regardless of the situation? BTW I think what you do with teh dogs is just fantastic! Your pictures are amazing...


The dog stays always with its handler who, as Jenni stated in a previous thread, works WITH his dog forming a deep camaraderie, each respecting and knowing each other. The pictures as you described it are the effects of that training and done wherever whatever with no routines, no drills...

But then, this is way off this topic..... Anyway, thank you and best regards...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Like any tool it can be used properly or it can be abused. When abused it takes the form of agitating a dog who really doesn't have what it takes to bite and when he fails to engage, the decoy knocks him off the table. The dog can't get back on it and he strangles. At the point where he's about to lose consciousness, he's helped back onto the table. If he still won't bite the decoy this is repeated until the dog learns that if he bites he doesn't get knocked off the table and he's spared from a near death experience by strangling.



Lou, not that I'm siding with Steve, but you yourself has said, "Like any tool, it can be used and abused". The mishandling of a tool cannot be blamed on the tool itself.... 

Just my thoughts...


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

It has been said before and will be said again anything can be abused and made to look counterproductive. I use tables to clean up outs and impove grips, it safes my back that is why. A table to me is no diferent then a back tie if used right. In Lou's response he talks about dogs being knocked off and almost dying. How tall was the table you saw Lou? Mine is like 2 feet off the ground most dogs will fall off and jump right back up with out missing a beat. 

Steve I have seen your site and your videos and as much as I agree with the method behind it I don't agree with the attacks you make on people I understand your long history with the few on your site and I know why you hate them, but it seems if someone disagrees with you they wind up on your site. Well for me I could care either way.

If a table is used right it can produce outstaning results if it is used wrong it can destroy a good dog. I have seen it work both ways. If your decoy can't work your dog effectivly on the ground then he wont beable to work him in the table. You have to know what you are doing with the table or you can hurt yourself and a dog. (being that you are almost eye level with the dog). 

with that said I invite the discussion on the topic and hope it stays productive But I would caution the Mod that the moment it gets out of hand or off topic to lock it down it will only go down hilll from there.

Matt Hammond
Quality K-9 Concepts


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> The mishandling of a tool cannot be blamed on the tool itself....


I was merely illustrating the horror that agitation tables can be when they're misused or abused. I think it's far worse than when any other tools is misused. Abuse or misuse is *always *the fault of the human involved. Tools are inanimate objects that by themselves can not do harm or good. 

Mr. Leigh wrote, " . . . Gene England invented table training. Within a few weeks, I built a 1000 sq. ft. room for tables." (The first part of this statement had already been refuted.) But why would it be necessary to "build a room for tables?" The only tables I've ever seen built outdoors are those for OB work or for training retrievers. All of the ones that I've heard of built for biting dogs are indoors. Why couldn't they simply be put up on the training field like equipment for the other types of work? Why are they hidden from view of the public? Have you ever seen a training video or even a website devoted to the use of tables? 

I've seen bird dog trainers refer to their table many times. Magazines devoted to training those dogs often have articles about using them. I've seen a Dobbs video (more bird dog training) where he uses a table. TriTronics has a chapter devoted to the table in one of their books. I've seen many OB trainers talk about using tables. But I don't recall seeing a discussion about biting dogs where a trainer suggested that a table, even used properly, was the solution to a problem. Matt (in this thread) is the first one. 

My questions are simple. If the tool is being used properly why the scarcity of information from table trainers? Why the secrecy? Why are the tables built out of view of the public? Why did Mr. Leigh find it necessary for "build a room" for his tables? Perhaps nothing untoward is going on. But these facts raise my doubts. I favor another highly controversial tool, the Ecollar. But I do all my work in public, where anyone can see what's happening. I've done seminars for rescue groups and had the anti-aversive folks present at them. No secrets, nothing happening behind closed doors. 



Matt Hammond said:


> I use tables to clean up outs and impove grips, it safes my back that is why.


Saving your back is a good reason to use a table to raise the dog up. I've used a picnic table with a dog that had focused on biting only the legs and I wanted to make them unavailable. I also had the decoy stand behind a small wall, but that's another topic and not the table training that is being discussed here. 



Matt Hammond said:


> How tall was the table you saw Lou?


I didn't see the table, I was told about it. When the dog was knocked off the table was of a height that he was unable to climb back onto it and hung off it. It's probably good that I didn't see it. I'd have been making arrests for animal abuse. Abuse in the name of training is still abuse. Of course I'm not saying that all table training is abusive. But that method of using it is. I'll go so far as to say that any method that regularly has a dog being hung and choked into near-unconsciousness is abusive. It's one thing to choke a dog out to save your skin during an attack by the dog. It's quite another to do it regularly in the name of training. 



Matt Hammond said:


> Mine is like 2 feet off the ground most dogs will fall off and jump right back up with out missing a beat.


Then yours couldn't be used for the abusive method that was described to me. It sounds as if the main reason you're elevating the dog is to save your back. Is that the case? Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the main reason that table trainers use them.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

That is really all I use it for. I find when I take the "new" handler out of the problem then I can fix the dog easier. So I use the table the handler gives the commands I give the corrections. Dog fixed everyone is happy!!


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Matt Hammond said:


> It has been said before and will be said again anything can be abused and made to look counterproductive. I use tables to clean up outs and impove grips, it safes my back that is why. A table to me is no diferent then a back tie if used right. In Lou's response he talks about dogs being knocked off and almost dying. How tall was the table you saw Lou? Mine is like 2 feet off the ground most dogs will fall off and jump right back up with out missing a beat.


That's the way I saw it too, Matt, about 2 feet indeed and I don't think it should go any higher if one wants to maintain eye-level with the dog. Being so, I don't really see how a dog could hang "falling" from there. It may probably jolt him a bit and the tendency would be to jump back on top. 

Also, we all work dogs under stresses like slippery floors, stairs, spiral staircases, decoy on top of a table warding off dog's attack with a chair, comfort room cubicles, explosions, etc. etc. I don't see how a table 2 feet high could make any difference.

Well, I probably have to try it to see what harm it can really do...


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## admin (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Leigh will unfortunately no longer be posting on this forum. I like to think of this site as a place where we can all be open to discussing ideas without argument and agree to disagree when need be. When Steve originally posted here I was sure we could get a productive discussion going between someone who uses the tables to train, as we have gotten out of several "controversial" topics recently. I had seen his website before but gave him the benefit of the doubt due to the nature of this forum and its acceptingness of training discussion. I don't care one way or another, I have heard things pro and con of table training, I've never done it, a trainer I work with and respect uses the tables, but I am sure that there's idiots out there misusing them just as they misuse other training tools. Unfortunately Steve misused this forum to gain additional material for his website. I would have been fine with a civil discussion on this forum, but taking it off this forum and resorting to name calling and personal attacks is where I have to draw the line, sorry Steve. Some people just ruin it for the rest of us. Anyway, I'm having to lock this thread down now. Not because I don't like the topic, or have any problem with the posts in this thread, but because I don't want innocent forum members to get dragged into something involuntarily. The thread will remain available for all to read as they wish.


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