# Prey drive revisited



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Classically, prey drive involves survival and a meal. Training wise it is chasing a toy. 

My dogs hunt, knowing they are not getting a meal, they are not hunting for survival, yet, it is commonly called prey drive

In training, dogs chase a ball, for neither, survival nor a meal, yet it is called prey drive.

I know the reason my dogs are hunting is because they love the fight. Maybe it should be renamed "fight drive"

In training, the dogs chase a ball for a reward. Reward drive?

Maybe outside of the wild, there is no such thing as "prey drive"

Just thinking. I got to go to work. Sun is shining and I got gallons of herbicide to spray.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Please stay at work! And stop trying to justify those man curs! Lol Lets see some vid of them hunting first..since that is what they excell at. You keep trying to make excuses for your dogs lack of any working genetics.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Classically, prey drive involves survival and a meal. Training wise it is chasing a toy.
> 
> My dogs hunt, knowing they are not getting a meal, they are not hunting for survival, yet, it is commonly called prey drive
> 
> ...



HA HA...

you have dogs that are hunting dogs and love to fight animals.

there is a huge difference in what other working type dogs need to do,

in most areas of work, a dog that wants to hunt and fight animals is a MAJOR detriment to the work involved...

What are you really trying to say? 

That all of the other traits that go into a working dog, from a different function dont matter to the work?

is a police dog that hunts for his toy, any less of a working dog than your dogs that hunt prey animals?

I got an idea, just for fun..since we all know you dont agree with the way that 99% of the way that breeders and trainers of working dogs view and label the traits...

Make up your own labels and definitions of all the traits that go into a working dog, or do you think they dont matter, or dont need name to discuss them...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

manny rose said:


> Please stay at work! And stop trying to justify those man curs! Lol Lets see some vid of them hunting first..since that is what they excell at. You keep trying to make excuses for your dogs lack of any working genetics.


yes...

Don when is the last time the dogs got a hog?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

How many times Maggie have to tell you that I, myself, said I don't hunt as much as I used to. You really that slow Joby?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

manny rose said:


> Please stay at work! And stop trying to justify those man curs! Lol Lets see some vid of them hunting first..since that is what they excell at. You keep trying to make excuses for your dogs lack of any working genetics.


You can bet they will do things you couldn't even train your dogs to do manny. :wink:

So forget I mentioned it. LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> How many times Maggie have to tell you that I, myself, said I don't hunt as much as I used to. You really that slow Joby?


how are you testing your breeding stock if you are not hunting?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> how are you testing your breeding stock if you are not hunting?


Didn't you read the "why" thread. Don can look at 8 week old pup, at a glance and tell if they are stud or not.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Well overdue, a thread on what prey drive is/isnt.

Should be illuminating if y'all can stay on topic.

Where's the roll of tyres in all this, roll get it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Didn't you read the "why" thread. Don can look at 8 week old pup, at a glance and tell if they are stud or not.


was serious...LOL.

just rechecked the other thread, and read more of the posts, turns out the best pup out of one of the "working dog" litter is great at sitting in front of a store while his owner shops...and a trainer gets business from that, all because Don took the pups out in a boat, and dropped them in the water...not because the guy is a decent trainer that proofs a long down in front of a store, which I think is a really stupid thing to do, unless you live in the middle of nowhere in a small town, but that is besides the point.

As Don explained while dropping the pups in the water, and schooled the trainer guy, who was clueless about dogs obviously (because he is only a trainer), that the quick recovery time will mean the difference between winning and losing in competition, he was right, the dog wins the sitting in front of the store competition all the time, but only because he recovered quickly when being dropped out of a boat....it is good that this was the best most confident dog out of the working dog litter, and good that it was so studiously tested and assessed by a master breeder, otherwise he would never be able to lay down in front of a store, regardless of who tried to train him...glad that guy got the best, most confident pup, instead of taking his other pick, that did not do as well, when being dropped in the lake off a boat, otherwise he could never have possiblly trained it to lay down in front of a store while he shopped....

I know this seems far fetched...but...regardless of what anyone thinks, I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP, it is all true...I swear...just ask Don...


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby is right you stop testing stock hard and you start getting soft dogs and in only a couple of generations.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Well overdue, a thread on what prey drive is/isnt.
> 
> Should be illuminating if y'all can stay on topic.
> 
> Where's the roll of tyres in all this, roll get it.


I share your desire for illuminating topics about dog training.

This will not be one of them because we have had it already before, so we all know how it is going to turn out.

Don doesn't believe that dogs should chase balls, and if they do he certainly doesn't believe that it should be called "prey drive".

Other people believe that a dog that chases toys is useful in some venues, and that for better or for worse the industry often calls that "prey drive".


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Oh, I thought maybe Don was just hitting the herbicide cuz he was out of liquor or something...which caused pontification. Kind of like a ******* version of Seinfeld. A show about nothing.....


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Regardless of what we call it, I think we can agree, we need it in our working dogs.

It is hard to train dogs with out being able to motivate them. By using a tug as a reward I find I can bring the best out in my dogs.
Food is also a good tool, but I usually use that for pups in the beginning.

I think a lot of dog terminology is misused among trainers. I know I have been guilty of it.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Tracey Hughes said:


> .
> 
> I think a lot of dog terminology is misused among trainers. I know I have been guilty of it.


Me too, too much terminology puts my head into a spin. I know what I need in a herding dog - good instincts - there are certain herding traits I look for in particular plus intelligence, confidence and the desire to work sheep, For agility willinness to work for me, enthusiam and easily motivated by tug, treat or me, dont care - I have dogs that fit all 3. Tenacity to stick with it. 

What the correct terminology is for any of these things- care factor very low.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Regardless of what we call it, *I think we can agree, we need it in our working dogs.*
> 
> It is hard to train dogs with out being able to motivate them. By using a tug as a reward I find I can bring the best out in my dogs.
> Food is also a good tool, but I usually use that for pups in the beginning.
> ...


Nope, we can't even all agree to that.

Cue Don and Chris McDonald......

But I swear we have been down this road before....


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

At my first seminar with a German trainer, Dieter Haupt, he never made mention of drives. To him a dog was either able to work or it wasn’t. But then again he could barely speak English either..

I think that will be my new answer to everything. "Yes, my dog can work or no it cannot “ and leave it at that.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Yeah, I suppose it could be left at that. 'The dog either can or can't'. 
Don't seem to go far for discussion or learning purposes though.

In general (sometimes very general) round terms most dog handlers understand the use of a term like prey.
What it means to their particular venue. How it can be used and what it's good for are all grey areas I suppose.

Don by your own definition, if the dogs don't actually make the kill on their own (that means without your gun help), they ain't got no prey drive.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Classically, prey drive involves survival and a meal. Training wise it is chasing a toy.
> 
> My dogs hunt, knowing they are not getting a meal, they are not hunting for survival, yet, it is commonly called prey drive


How do you know this, Don? Did they tell you that? 



> In training, dogs chase a ball, for neither, survival nor a meal, yet it is called prey drive.


Same question as above...



> I know the reason my dogs are hunting is because they love the fight.


See above.. again, how do you know this? They told you?



> In training, the dogs chase a ball for a reward. Reward drive?


Do you think that is actually why dogs chase a ball? Because they want a "reward"? If they were only looking for a reward in training, they would be happy with a pat on the head and a "good boy".

My point is that, you cannot possibly fantasize that you know what is going through your dog's heads, so how can you make these generalizations?


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Ok, I should walk away, but I'm going to share my definitions and why.

For me, prey drive is visual drive. It is the greyhound that chases that mechanical rabbit around the track regardless that said "rabbit" has no scent.

For me, hunt drive is scent drive. It is the dog that's ruled by its nose. You can have a dog that's extremely hunt driven to the point that it can walk over a scent article in plain sight, but if the scent isn't reaching its nose then it will not find it that way. I can set up search problems to demonstrate this to handlers. It takes the right conditions, but if you know how scent works then it's not too hard to set up.

When I test puppies to work with, I test for hunt drive for human remains. I test for prey drive with a racoon-like tail on a fishing line that I reel through the grass. And, I test for "ball drive" because I want the ready-made reward system with the puppy at 5-6 weeks that chases the puppy-size tennis ball AND brings it back to me to "do it again!!!!" I've never been quite sure where to label ball drive, but the dogs I train that start with it continue to be ball obsessive through-out their life. Of course, I do encourage the obsession by raising the value of the ball. Each dog has ended up with its favorite ball with a particular texture or squeak. My first working dog made it her mission to chew squeakers out. Her favorite ball is no longer made. I loaned mine to a student who had to go out on Ebay to find a replacement because they sink in water. It was made by Kong, very dense, and with slots in the center to place food. This dog considered the reward better the harder I threw the ball and made it her mission to catch it in the air. This got to be such a competition between us that I ended up bruising the back of her mouth for about 3-weeks with a "fast ball" that she caught.
I'm working two dogs right now and if I get out the "wrong ball", the dog will work, but is more going through the motions. I whip out the right ball and the dog lights up with anticipation. My attitude is I'll use what ever lights the dog up. When I first started dog training, I was taught that the trainer/handler should be able to sell just about any reward to a dog. I'm not so sure now. 
Fortunately, neither ball I use now sinks when dropped in a lake or river.

I do agree that unless Don continues to hunt new litters that he won't be able to observe the drives his breeding is producing/reinforcing. This is another reason why I simply test/audition puppies I'm going to invest years with rather than blindly trust a breeder to choose for me.

Jim Delbridge


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Ok, I should walk away, but I'm going to share my definitions and why.
> 
> For me, prey drive is visual drive. It is the greyhound that chases that mechanical rabbit around the track regardless that said "rabbit" has no scent.
> 
> ...


Is it your opinion, that for an HRD dog, that a pup that hunts HR could *possibly* make a better HRD than another pup from the same litter, that might be more confident, but does not hunt for HR? 

Or would you say in your experiences, the more confident pup would always make a better HRD dog, regardless if he hunts for HR or not?

(assuming that the pup that does hunt for HR is confident enough to do the job?)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I know the reason my dogs are hunting is because they love the fight. Maybe it should be renamed "fight drive"
> 
> In training, the dogs chase a ball for a reward. Reward drive?


DON, DON, DON...
Prey drive isn't fight drive even though critters fight in that mode. My dogs chase the ball for the reward of pleasing me. Pleasing IS the reward in most drives IF the dog is in tune with the the handler.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

If a puppy doesn't like HRs to start with on its own, I don't care what it's reward drive is. It will be a so-so dog in HR. yea it will be able to find a decomp source that brings tears to your eyes due to the high nitrogen content, but it won't be able to reliably work for scattered skeletal remains. It won't work well in adverse conditions because its there for the reward and not the scent itself. I'm a big believer in the best trailing dogs are those that the ultimate reward is working the trail itself for the scent. Such dogs appear to experience an anti-climax on the find as they realize the trail is over.

Jim


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL again. You guys got way too much time on your hands. :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so Don, what would you call the different traits in the dog, if you actually did something that required you to think or talk about them?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

You tell me Joby, you're the one in the chair 24/7.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jim Delbridge said:


> If a puppy doesn't like HRs to start with on its own, I don't care what it's reward drive is. It will be a so-so dog in HR. yea it will be able to find a decomp source that brings tears to your eyes due to the high nitrogen content, but it won't be able to reliably work for scattered skeletal remains. It won't work well in adverse conditions because its there for the reward and not the scent itself. I'm a big believer in the best trailing dogs are those that the ultimate reward is working the trail itself for the scent. Such dogs appear to experience an anti-climax on the find as they realize the trail is over.
> 
> Jim


Jim,


I'm assuming that the attraction to human remains is something you want to see in the pup when you test it? Next, would you take a puppy that was weak on environmental and/or people confidence, yet had the attraction for human remains. I have sort of three quandrants. The ultimate puppy that I pick/keep excels in all three.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Jim,
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that the attraction to human remains is something you want to see in the pup when you test it? *Next, would you take a puppy that was weak on environmental and/or people confidence*, yet had the attraction for human remains. I have sort of three quandrants. The ultimate puppy that I pick/keep excels in all three.
> ...


not Jim, but I'm guessing NO....


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Let's try this. 
For the prey driven dog, the chase alone is the dogs reward.
The dog doesn't chase a ball or game for it's handler or anything else except for the self satifaction of the chase. That's all.

That's why training through prey is done, the dog readily learns the chase only comes through and from the handler. The chase is the reward, nothing else.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Hunt or prey...does it matter?


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Jim,
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that the attraction to human remains is something you want to see in the pup when you test it? Next, would you take a puppy that was weak on environmental and/or people confidence, yet had the attraction for human remains. I have sort of three quandrants. The ultimate puppy that I pick/keep excels in all three.
> ...


 
A dog that excels in human remains but is too afraid to go out on the rubble pile, crawl under a house, or go into a sewar access is just as worthless. When I test puppies for me, I set up an excel worksheet with pre-set scores for expected reactions. On my scoring system, 1s or 2s are acceptable in (something like) 15 categories. Any 3's or higher and I tend to walk away. I start with noise testing by throwing two pie pans up into the air over the puppy where they bang together then drop to the ground (usually on either side of the puppy). On that test I want to see the puppy that jumps to recognize the threat, but then returns to investigate once the threat is diminished. On a typical litter, this washes out 2/3rds of the litter.
On your question of environment, I always ask to test the litter in a location they've never been. The main reason for this is that a search dog's life is to always go into a new environment. I tested a litter of german-german breeding that the breeder had done all the experts told her should be done ...but...it had been a rainy spring and she just couldn't see taking the puppies outside when it was wet. End result was the puppies all freaked to be tested in the wooded backyard with a lush gully behind. I had to walk away. One puppy of that litter actually obsessed on HRs and the breeder(and friends) got all excited that this was the puppy I'd take. I had to tell them that just liking the scent was not enough. This puppy actually bit my thumb in the roll-over test, staring me in the eye while he did it. I do believe he's doing schutzhund now which would have been a good fit for him.

My testing (in my mind) is an audition. The puppy has to show me that he/she has all the traits that will make it happy to be an HRD dog, that it will be a natural in that work, and that it won't be happy unless it gets continually challenged. My job after that is to basically teach via problem sets. Imprinting is basically not necessary as they already love the scent. I have to show them all the windows of decomposition and skeletization that they will be expected to locate. That's more than enough without trying to force a square ped into a round hole.

Jim


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Jim,
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that the attraction to human remains is something you want to see in the pup when you test it? Next, would you take a puppy that was weak on environmental and/or people confidence, yet had the attraction for human remains. I have sort of three quandrants. The ultimate puppy that I pick/keep excels in all three.
> ...


 
A dog that excels in human remains but is too afraid to go out on the rubble pile, crawl under a house, or go into a sewar access is just as worthless. When I test puppies for me, I set up an excel worksheet with pre-set scores for expected reactions. On my scoring system, 1s or 2s are acceptable in (something like) 15 categories. Any 3's or higher and I tend to walk away. I start with noise testing by throwing two pie pans up into the air over the puppy where they bang together then drop to the ground (usually on either side of the puppy). On that test I want to see the puppy that jumps to recognize the threat, but then returns to investigate once the threat is diminished. On a typical litter, this washes out 2/3rds of the litter.
On your question of environment, I always ask to test the litter in a location they've never been. The main reason for this is that a search dog's life is to always go into a new environment. I tested a litter of german-german breeding that the breeder had done all the experts told her should be done ...but...it had been a rainy spring and she just couldn't see taking the puppies outside when it was wet. End result was the puppies all freaked to be tested in the wooded backyard with a lush gully behind. I had to walk away. One puppy of that litter actually obsessed on HRs and the breeder(and friends) got all excited that this was the puppy I'd take. I had to tell them that just liking the scent was not enough. This puppy actually bit my thumb in the roll-over test, staring me in the eye while he did it. I do believe he's doing schutzhund now which would have been a good fit for him.

My testing (in my mind) is an audition. The puppy has to show me that he/she has all the traits that will make it happy to be an HRD dog, that it will be a natural in that work, and that it won't be happy unless it gets continually challenged. My job after that is to basically teach via problem sets. Imprinting is basically not necessary as they already love the scent. I have to show them all the windows of decomposition and skeletization that they will be expected to locate. That's more than enough without trying to force a square ped into a round hole.

Jim


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Randy Allen said:


> Let's try this.
> For the prey driven dog, the chase alone is the dogs reward.
> The dog doesn't chase a ball or game for it's handler or anything else except for the self satifaction of the chase. That's all.
> 
> That's why training through prey is done, the dog readily learns the chase only comes through and from the handler. The chase is the reward, nothing else.



You might very well be the only one that "gets it", Randy..


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Britney Pelletier said:


> My point is that, you cannot possibly fantasize that you know what is going through your dog's heads, so how can you make these generalizations?


The Seed's capacity for fantasizing is limitless.


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Randy Allen said:


> Let's try this.
> For the prey driven dog, the chase alone is the dogs reward.
> The dog doesn't chase a ball or game for it's handler or anything else except for the self satifaction of the chase. That's all.


Prey is only one reason the dog chases the ball. If it was only prey drive the dog would never bring it back.


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Prey is only one reason the dog chases the ball. If it was only prey drive the dog would never bring it back.
> 
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


Wow, that's really heavy Chistopher. The point I was making in the first post that no one understood. Chasing stuff, whether it is my dogs or yours, probably isn't prey drive anyway. Probably never was. LOL Just someone wrote a book and figured it was the same even though it had nothing to do with eating or survival. Maybe they just do it because it is something to do.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Wow, that's really heavy Chistopher. The point I was making in the first post that no one understood. Chasing stuff, whether it is my dogs or yours, probably isn't prey drive anyway. Probably never was. LOL Just someone wrote a book and figured it was the same even though it had nothing to do with eating or survival. Maybe they just do it because it is something to do.


I would think that chasing toys, car wheels, playing tug and all that sort of thing is a natural instinct with its roots in the prey sequence. 

However in my mind a dog that isnt interested in toys, doesnt mean it isnt not going to to be stimulated to go into prey drive. One of my BCs had to be taught to chase a ball and play tug, it was not something that she was particularly interested in at first although that changed, but she will spend all days chasing and trying to catch rabbits and she will rip them to pieces and eat it if she catches one. 

A dog that is really motivated by tugs, balls is just very handy when training a dog in performance activities, it can probably be selected for, but I think it still has its origins in prey drive. 

I have a dog not the slightest interested in toys, but he loves herding sheep, an activity with its origins in the prey sequence and a very strong instinct manipulated and bred into him by us.

Of course it has nothing to do any more with survival and eating but it is a genetic instinct that we have manipulated and is useful to us in our dogs at various levels and for various reasons.

Not sure why we keep getting out knickers in a knot over it.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Prey is only one reason the dog chases the ball. If it was only prey drive the dog would never bring it back.
> 
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


 Hey my dogs never bring it back......true prey monsters.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> I would think that chasing toys, car wheels, playing tug and all that sort of thing is a natural instinct with its roots in the prey sequence.
> 
> However in my mind a dog that isnt interested in toys, doesnt mean it isnt not going to to be stimulated to go into prey drive. One of my BCs had to be taught to chase a ball and play tug, it was not something that she was particularly interested in at first, but she will spend all days chasing and trying to catch rabbits and she will rip them to pieces and eat it if she catches one.
> 
> ...


I think we have all been brainwashed over the years. Just about all animals like to play. They play when they are young, they play when they are adults. There is just too much contradictory stuff when you get into it and actually think about it.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Its like religious mythologies and rituals to explain natural events.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Of course it has nothing to do any more with survival and eating but it is a genetic instinct that we have manipulated and is useful to us in our dogs at various levels and for various reasons.


Not really, just something someone perceived it was connected to survival drives. Watch dogs. They play the same games over and over because they are having fun. My dog don't hunt for survival, they hunt because they like to. Same with chasing balls and anything else. They do it because they enjoy it. Different thing float different dogs boats. Just to many things don't jive to call all this stuff inate drives. There is nothing inate about most of it.....it was bred for.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not really, just something someone perceived it was connected to survival drives. Watch dogs. They play the same games over and over because they are having fun. My dog don't hunt for survival, they hunt because they like to. Same with chasing balls and anything else. They do it because they enjoy it. Different thing float different dogs boats. Just to many things don't jive to call all this stuff inate drives. There is nothing inate about most of it.....it was bred for.


Well I think it is a combination of the innate and the manipulation and selection of the innate. Yes young wild canines and other species also play for fun in the wild and they play fight and their mothers may bring them small live animals to play with and in reality they are having fun but also perfecting their hunting skills and sorting out their pecking order and honing their physical condition and strengthening their social bonds. Instinct is driving them on. Those instincts all once neccessary for survival have been very usefull for us to work with in the domestic dog. So yes it is bred and selected for but it comes from wild origins, traits that were neccessary for survival.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Why? Because a person peceived this is what was going on and wrote a book. This kind of stuff is being refuted every day. The guy that wrote the original studies on wolves refuted all his own studies a few years ago. After all these drive discussion, I am beginning to believe we never were working with actual drives.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why? Because a person peceived this is what was going on and wrote a book. This kind of stuff is being refuted every day. The guy that wrote the original studies on wolves refuted all his own studies a few years ago. After all these drive discussion, I am beginning to believe we never were working with actual drives.


Well I havent read the book LOL, but I did grow up on the plains of Central Africa and certainly have observed some very similar behaviours among the plains animals. I also observe playing and play fighting among my young sheep, they also flee in a certain pattern when they see my dogs in a certain mode. 

They can tell immediately if my dogs have intent or not and react accordingly. They ignore them if they are out an about playing and walking with me. My BC just has to focus on them and in an instant they are running for their lives in flight mode and my dogs are instantly also in a different mode. Focussed with a burning intensity in their eyes. A couple of my dogs get the same look in their eyes when I bring out a tug, although they would rather it was live LOL.

I dont concern myself too much about the whole drive thing. I think the genetics we work with has been a culmination of the animals ability to survive and evolve over millions of years and then we take them and use them. There is also stuff that certain individuals have had that is useful to our purpose but not so useful in the wild. The BC has great gathering and casting instincts but is unlikely to kill the sheep. We create the domestic dog and use the genetics that came with its ancestors according to our needs, and create a range of characteristics suitable for different tasks.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Why won't or doesn't the dog bring the ball back Christopher?
If it isn't for the joy of the chase what is the motive that moves the dog to run after the ball to begin with? Because I want him to? Don't be silly, I dare you to give me an example that a dog was taught to chase something to please anyone but himself.
Remember we're talking prey not possession, not territory, not defense or anything else. And it's hard, but we are suppose to be trying to separate out prey from everything else.
And not a handlers ineptitude at training their dog.

Which brings to mind Don.
So you don't want to accept the (abiet, broad but reasonable) the terms used for describing how an animal as social as the dog interacts in it's the world.
That's fine as long as you don't do anything more with the dog then teaching them how to run after or from something. Which it seems has been demostrated you've done quite well at. Congrats.
Otherwise get up to speed.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

In the end it doesn't really matter what it is called Randy. I used to think dogs had prey drive. Same with trainers. Not understanding or mislabeling what we are seeing didn't stop anything at all. The dogs still did it. I don't take anything necessary gospel that was simply derived at through observation and decuction. Buit, since I keep hearing how labels make for more inteligent discusssions(lmao) between trainers, maybe it would be noice oif it made more sense. Lots of people been incarcerated because of nothing more than simple observation and lots of assumption. Trainers are alway chanting(sounds like a cult doesn't it) how every dog is different so has to be handled different. Kind of tough to do if minds are that closed and defensive(really defensive). 

Think about the prey drive those 49ers have chasing that ball. The Yankees, Broncos....the list goes on and on. People have survival drives also you know. Playing football, baseball, hockey or whatever has not one thing to do with a drive. Just games. Some play for a reason, some even just p-lay for fun. LOL. Yeah, y'all would probably rather talk about what kind of food each other is feeding. LOL Go get mezmerized by another training vid so you can keep up with the latest biscuit being tossed.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

So now you want to define fun? What constitutes fun? How any one individual person derives fun?
Now you're applying human drives and emotions to dogs?

Make up your mind, the dog is either a simple cause and effect creature or he's a complex entity with perhaps conflicking motives and perhaps conflicking results.
Which is it?


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

And if it's any interest to you my favorite vids are Sin City, The Matrix, The Big Lebowski and The Outlaw Josey Wells.
Otherwise I don't know wtf you're talking about.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Randy Allen said:


> Why won't or doesn't the dog bring the ball back Christopher?


 I turn that question back on you. If the dog is doing it simply to fulfill some sort of "prey drive" why should he bring it back? 


> If it isn't for the joy of the chase what is the motive that moves the dog to run after the ball to begin with?


Because of "prey drive". But that has nothing to do with why the dog brings it back.


> Because I want him to?


That's a part of it.



> Don't be silly, I dare you to give me an example that a dog was taught to chase something to please anyone but himself.


 https://www.google.com/search?num=1...12.12.0.0.0.0.229.1632.3j7j2.12.0.33Am-Gwz3eg


My dog brings the ball/toy back to me because it is a conduit for him to activate and interact with me. He brings it back and good things happen. It's part of our social interaction. 


I have balls and toys all over my yard and my dogs rarely touch them when they are alone. But when I come outside and ignore them they will find a ball and bring it to me. They are telling me to pay attention to them and play. This is the first step to teaching the dog to push me in obedience.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well Randy, there is always hopes that someday an intelligent conversation will take place here. Maybe not today or tomorrow.....but someday when trainers get passed their insecurities.....which I believe is at the root of why they have such a strong desire to train(control) a dogs behavior. I got two emails here asking me if I got shit for brains broaching such a subject here. One says I must be as dumb as you guys for not yet understanding you guys are trainers and really don't care as long as someone tells you to do it and what your seeing. The other ones says that bringing up a subject like this is so far opposed to the core beliefs you have been indoctrinated with in training that it would be about equivolent to you trying to convince me that heterosexuality is what is not normal. Mmmm Don't hear any wheels turnin, Just the hum of computers. I sometimes wonder if the easy access to questionable info on computers has interfered with peoples ability to think.....like the pocket calculators affected the ability to do simple math.

Thought of the day....If everthing Koehler did was so wrong and outdated even though it worked well, what makes you think Coppinger wasn't totally off base and actually understanding why dogs do things might not improve training even more? Ah, another year, probably another century. LOL


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Speaking of intelligence....passed (past) equivolent (equivalent)

I can do math without a calculator

And spell too

It is important when it comes to having intelligent conversations.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> Speaking of intelligence....passed (past) equivolent (equivalent)
> 
> I can do math without a calculator
> 
> ...


Don't go gettin' excited about the bad spellers, place is riddled with them I tell ya! :razz:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ....but someday when trainers get passed their insecurities.....which I believe is at the root of why they have such a strong desire to train(control) a dogs behavior.


quote of the day...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> Speaking of intelligence....passed (past) equivolent (equivalent)
> 
> I can do math without a calculator
> 
> ...



Your too up on me with that won! Spell check can't even understand some of the spelling I put in front of it. :grin: :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> Speaking of intelligence....passed (past) equivolent (equivalent)
> 
> I can do math without a calculator
> 
> ...


LOL

Point taken Jim. Guess that is what having folks that were school teachers all their lives is worth. :wink:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL
> 
> Point taken Jim. Guess that is what having folks that were school teachers all their lives is worth. :wink:


Hey,,,, this couldn't possibly be.... Don being self efacing could it ???


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Hey,,,, this couldn't possibly be.... Don being self efacing could it ???


That's me Maggie. You didn't get it.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don do you have a degree in psychology?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

The revised version

Don do you have a degree in psychology? 

You have self-proclaimed your not a dog trainer.

You have stated you do not show a dog in any venue....even hunting.

I ask, because make limitless diagnosis on peoples thinking and behavior. You also, join in and offer all kinds anecdotes on training. You make alll kinds of judgements on peoples activities. Fact of the matter is. Your not a shrink, so you don't what your talking about, your just make shit up, based on zero education...maybe you watch Dr. Phil, I don't know. It seems that if someone comments on training and it does not fit your nostalgic equation....it's wrong. But your not a dog trainer....So your just making shit up again. You judge others activties they choose to do with thier dogs....ones you have never experienced or even seen with your own naked eyes...I mean you really have to say about a lot of this shit, you have absolutley no exeperience in. None. 

Now what I have noticed....you do not admit when your wrong, even when your caught red handed. It's a very human thing to be wrong....but you seem to never to do it? You just start peddling hat bike backwards, twisting the words, and looking for a way to not be wrong, if it was not this, it was that.....And you say it's hard to have an intelligent conversation....it sure is, when your agenda is being right, and not coming to a conclusion on something. But you do not even want to have experience in what your discussing. How the hell is that going to produce anything. I do not care you disagree with me on certain things. It's that you disagree just to sound smart....which you don't. Everyone see's what I see. A guy who has become somewhat versed on internet conversation, and who can never ever see what someone else is putting out there.

I assure you that video of your dog doing whatever you wanna say it did in that video....anyone who has ever worked one protection dog in thier life, knows what that dog did. Why? cause we have experience and knowledge. You think that you got everyone to see it your way, no, we just got tired of arguing with you. We all still know that Airedale was scared shitless.

In one thread, you say, just take 2 good dogs and whip up some pups...That's all that's needed. No pedigrees, nothing. But in another....you state how a breeder who is breeding should be able to know his lines and pick the most viable pup. So which one is it? Should a breeder have all the information and know the dogs, or simply 2 good ones will do? I stated in te first thread. That pedigrees were a clue on what you might get. You told me pedigrees don't say shit and they are worthless....but the next one, I should know my dogs...and be able to pick the winners? 

That whole insercurity in dog trainers needing to control the dogs just really showed me how out of touch you are. I think if you go to a club, any club. You will find people there enthrawled with idea of how to have a respectful, reciprocal relationship with thier dog. One that yes, has a social hierarchy, but any trainer, doing anything worth talking about is so far beyond trying to gain control it's not even funny. I think most trainers, are looking to share thier life with a dog, not control them. And Training....which is teaching for this dog trainer, not controlling as you stated, provides a perfect catalyst. I think most trainers want a willing, enthusastic partner, who is all in on the deal....Not a dog that is simply "under control".

So what is it you do with your dogs? if you do not train and you do not hunt?....That pretty much makes you a pet dog guy now doesn't it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Been to the hunting nationals James...How about you? You been and competed. I think you are making a lot of your last post up James. Where did I every say just take two good dogs and get some good pups. Your doing some stretching to come up with that because I am always down on you hobby breeders because you seem to think that is all there is to it. Do I need to remind you that you are the one that says you can't tell which of your pups has the most potential. I am sure I am not the only one shaking his head. Damned James, you don't even know how to pick an argument you can win much less a puppy. Go ahead and read pedigrees. Be my guest. But please don't lecture on things like phenotype and genotype to someone that can show you what it looks like. Makes you look like a fool becuase you will likley never see it yourself no matter what you read son. Be n9ice if y'all put on some jockeys for a change and if you don't like the topic....ignore it. I could give a rip. LOL Just quit whining.

Do I have a degree in psychology, nope, just a lot of experience you don't have. If you had any you wouldn't be following me from post to post making a fool out of yourself. Your not alone. About the only time I respond to your posts is when you follow me from thread to thread trying to look like you know shit. Chris S and a good number of others.....I don't dog you guys....your not worth it. It is a waste of my time son, but, what I have to say sure seems to bother you guys. LOL I am flattered. I have to wonder why you don't pay attention to your own byline. Why? Because to you and so many others they are just words with no meaning that you heard somewhere and thought it was you. Cur dogs are always on the sidelines snapping and making POINTLESS noise. The big dog just goes on about his business because the curs pose no threat. Hey, you and several others are just like curs. Aggravating but, not so much your going to run me off. You waste a lot of time and cause me to waste time I don't have right now. Try watching dogs James, a cur can be picked out every time. People are no different. Funny thing about a cur, once a cur, always a cur....and you will keep dogging my posts undoubtedly. I got things to do.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don,
... are you saying that dogs have NO inherent, genetically predisposed desire to chase an object that moves away from them? Or are you saying they do but that is not Prey Drive? Or are you saying something else?


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Doug

My grandfather was an old school cattleman who had an old humorous saying for anything. One was to be careful when in front of a bull, behind a horse or anywhere around a f.....'n idiot. All I can say is.....be careful!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That's about the best advice on here lately


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