# Puppy bite and environmental work. from 7 weeks to 10 months



## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

I was going through all my dog vids the other day and thought it would be cool to do a couple videos of my dog progressing as he grows up. The first clip in the video is Djanko after the 16 hr car ride home. He was just shy of 7 weeks. The last clip was taken when he was about 10.5 months old. Let me know what you think

http://youtu.be/buakL5yLxi0


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

whats not to like so far.. 

looks great to me.. 

thanls for sharing..

you guys use a leg sleee sometimes up high there? if so, what brand...??


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

thanks Joby. So far, there is not a thing I don't like about him, he is solid all the way around. The only leg sleeve we use is that big ray allen leg sleeve. But with a pup I just use ray allens Belgian arm sleeve and slip it on my leg. I have never seen a real great leg sleeve, or wanted to spend the money and try one out lol. So far our dogs have had no problem learning formal leg bites once they are ready for the suit.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Austin Porter said:


> thanks Joby. So far, there is not a thing I don't like about him, he is solid all the way around. The only leg sleeve we use is that big ray allen leg sleeve. But with a pup I just use ray allens Belgian arm sleeve and slip it on my leg. I have never seen a real great leg sleeve, or wanted to spend the money and try one out lol. So far our dogs have had no problem learning formal leg bites once they are ready for the suit.


ill have to watch it again. maybe it just was an armsleeve, if I cant figure it out Ill give you a timestamp to look at,.

I meant a legsleeve on the bicep..

good work man....

ok watched it again...the little armsleeve right before the suitwork, what was that one?


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

just went back through and checked.. that real small puppy sleeve is from Elite K9, the big arm sleeve that is being used while Chelsea is firing the AR in the back ground is a Ray Allen Belgian arm, and then the suit. I guess


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

..... I guess that all the equipment that made it in lol. Maybe that's all you need hahah


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Looking good brother! Keep it up, I'm proud of him. I still have one of his brothers here, I will try to get some video of soon. He's turning into a very nice dog too.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Thanks Mike! Now I just need to figure out what I'm going to do with him lol


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Austin Porter said:


> Thanks Mike! Now I just need to figure out what I'm going to do with him lol


Keep working him, and also work on his hunt / retrieve drive an I will buy him back when you are ready. And we can start the process over again with another pup! :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Austin Porter said:


> ..... I guess that all the equipment that made it in lol. Maybe that's all you need hahah


I was asking becuase I have been playing with a pretty nice 9.5 month old gsd, and we are currently using a half leg sleeve on the bicep...


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## Oscar Mora (Mar 31, 2010)

very cool video. Thanks for sharing!


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

mike suttle said:


> Keep working him, and also work on his hunt / retrieve drive an I will buy him back when you are ready. And we can start the process over again with another pup! :grin:


Yes sir will do, we work every day lol. I'm in the process of making the same type of video but with his hunt/retrieve and OB. I will definitely be in touch Mike.

Joby, I have seen some vids of dogs working on a short leg sleeve to get them trying to target high on the bicep. What brand of sleeve are you using? I actually think I have seen Mike use it that way in some his vids?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Austin Porter said:


> Yes sir will do, we work every day lol. I'm in the process of making the same type of video but with his hunt/retrieve and OB. I will definitely be in touch Mike.
> 
> Joby, I have seen some vids of dogs working on a short leg sleeve to get them trying to target high on the bicep. What brand of sleeve are you using? I actually think I have seen Mike use it that way in some his vids?


It is not my sleeve, it is the guy with the dogs sleeve, it has no tags on it.
the kicker is, the guy got the sleeve from me, won it in a raffle at an event we did, or as a prize for getting on the podium, and I dont remeber where I got it, we got a good deal of sponsorship and gave away lots of stuff (that I wish I had now LOL)

It is perfect though. I have it nailed down to McCoy K9 I think, or "The K9 Shop" which was at the time ran by Arnaud Mager of ALM suits.

it is a nice lower half sleeve, full padded and is cut nice so it comes up on the shoulder some..is not super tight, has velcro to strip it off, if that is something that is desired. 

I would bet it was McCoy K9, since I have not seen another one like it around ever, since I dont think he does import or produce a high volume of gear I dont think.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Not one to quickly respond to these type of vids but that was fun to watch. Nice looking pup you have there, relaxed on the bite and not an inch left! Enjoyed that! Only thing I would change is the music LOL...I loved the vid but am a fan of real dog sounds and comments in the video! I love how the real sounds make the video come alive, but thats a personal preference. 

Be proud, Austin. Nice dog!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Not one to quickly respond to these type of vids but that was fun to watch. Nice looking pup you have there, relaxed on the bite and not an inch left! Enjoyed that! Only thing I would change is the music LOL...I loved the vid but am a fan of real dog sounds and comments in the video! I love how the real sounds make the video come alive, but thats a personal preference.
> 
> Be proud, Austin. Nice dog!


I generally dont like music in training videos, but with this I dont think I missed much, it is pretty plain to see what is going on, without having to hear it..probably just hear lots of "chuggin" and the dog breathing through the nose anyhow..


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Not one to quickly respond to these type of vids but that was fun to watch. Nice looking pup you have there, relaxed on the bite and not an inch left! Enjoyed that! Only thing I would change is the music LOL...I loved the vid but am a fan of real dog sounds and comments in the video! I love how the real sounds make the video come alive, but thats a personal preference.
> 
> Be proud, Austin. Nice dog!


Thank you very much Alice. 
This is the first Vid I have ever edited. lol some of the things I say while I am working are not very professional or family friendly, especially in the last clip. A lot of that was new pressure to him so I was getting pretty excited. I am very proud of him!


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> I generally dont like music in training videos, but with this I dont think I missed much, it is pretty plain to see what is going on, without having to hear it..probably just hear lots of "chuggin" and the dog breathing through the nose anyhow..


Yep all you really missed was... Barking, yelling, decoy screams, gun shots, panting, and some bad language.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm not family friendly either! I can take it! 

I missed screams? Oh man!!!! I feel cheated now :lol: Just kidding, nice video!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nice compilation. I look forward to seeing the other one that you are working on. Music goes well with those types of videos, I think.

I've heard my share of noises from stuff that sounds like someone getting busy, mouth breathers, incessant talking, gossip, WIND, and everything else you can imagine in some of the videos posted here. You guys can have your music void videos. For those that use it, I'm glad they do. IMO about the only time it seems apt without music is when the training/work is really sharp or someone is doing a demo specifically looking to solicit feedback. Most of us are amateurs at what we're doing and those who aren't know it and have the capacity to work/present their dogs productively and without any added frills or transitional aspects.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I'm not family friendly either! I can take it!
> 
> I missed screams? Oh man!!!! I feel cheated now :lol: Just kidding, nice video!


Austin/Alice, you guys are funny. Ha ha, um yea. Aside from the fact that nothing interesting ever takes place in my videos... there is that one aspect that does warrant covering up. YEEEHAW!!!!


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Nicole Stark said:


> Nice compilation. I look forward to seeing the other one that you are working on. Music goes well with those types of videos, I think.
> 
> I've heard my share of noises from stuff that sounds like someone getting busy, mouth breathers, incessant talking, gossip, WIJND, and everything else you can imagine in some of the videos posted here. You guys can have your music void videos. For those that use it, I'm glad they do. IMO about the only time it seems apt without music is when the training/work is really sharp or someone is doing a demo specifically looking to solicit feedback. Most of us are amateurs at what we're doing and those who aren't know it and have the capacity to work/present their dogs productively and without any added frills or transitional aspects.


Most of the videos I take are for my decoys, I don't have access to super experienced decoy work on a regular basis, both of the guys doing the suit work hadn't had any experience until they started doing stuff with me less than a year ago. They both work their asses off and take criticism well. We will work the dog and go back and ill try and point out things to work on (not that I have much experience either lol). Luckily my dogs are pretty stable and kinda do it on their own. Every now and then we get a nice clean vid worth showing off.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

so thats whats normal for a 7 week old up (jokes)
really nice pup and training though, whos the mother?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

found it lol, typed it wrong the first time


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> so thats whats normal for a 7 week old up (jokes)
> really nice pup and training though, whos the mother?


He's from our Boris x Maud litter and yes, that's normal


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Austin Porter said:


> Yep all you really missed was... Barking, yelling, decoy screams, gun shots, panting, and some bad language.


and probably the dog happily and calmly breathing through his nose, which is the important part of all that stuff


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> so thats whats normal for a 7 week old up (jokes)
> really nice pup and training though, whos the mother?


Yes his prey drive and grips were pretty normal/average as a young pup. His nerves and stability are what made him stand out (in my opinion). I have literally never seen him be concerned or slow down for any environmental stress or decoy pressure... and we train in some pretty strange and uncomfortable places, he actually seems to rise to the occasion. I feel like I can brag about this because I don't think its anything I DID, he was this way when I saw him at Mike's. I just continued to take him out and expose him to everything I could think of.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Austin Porter said:


> Yes his prey drive and grips were pretty normal/average as a young pup. His nerves and stability are what made him stand out (in my opinion). I have literally never seen him be concerned or slow down for any environmental stress or decoy pressure... and we train in some pretty strange and uncomfortable places, he actually seems to rise to the occasion. I feel like I can brag about this because I don't think its anything I DID, he was this way when I saw him at Mike's. I just continued to take him out and expose him to everything I could think of.


 Austin's last sentence here is perhaps the most powerful message one could recieve about how to raise a working Malinois. Genetically the dog was good, (or what I would call NORMAL for a working line KNPV dog) but Austin took those good genetics and continued on with the early environmental exposure that the dog had already begun here with us, and he stayed with it and kept showing the dog more and more while never letting him experience anything too traumadic from the environment, and always showing the dog the path to sucess.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Great video, Austin. Excellent work with him


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Thanks Dave!


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## Holden Sawyer (Feb 22, 2011)

Actually I was going to comment on that, that it seemed like very thoughtful and deliberate work with the pup, not getting to excited and doing something dumb like, "let's see what happens if we try THIS!" but keeping it interesting for the pup as he matured. I actually liked how there was like a small plastic pot when the pup was very small, and then a large rubber trash can when the pup was big, so I guess if I were the pup, I'd be like "oh no big deal, that black bucket thing again." He obviously started out a nice pup, but I like the self-restraint by the handler to just take it easy and let him grow into himself. I appreciate it more to know that your friends pitched in to help, that's pretty cool.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Thanks Holden, pretty much everything I am did with him early on and even the things we do now are to prepare him for the work that he will hopefully do one day. I had a general plan with him every time he stepped out of the kennel. Just like you mentioned, the equipment, pressure, and distractions we small when he was young and have increased as he grew and progressed in the work. The most difficult part was not moving to fast with him because he always looked like he could take a little more. I frequently have to remind my self he is just a pup.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

My fiancé, friends, and the guys that work for me at my office have helped out a ton. They all put up with an intense, sometimes bossy, handler and drivey Mali on a daily basis. Also a lot of people have let me train in a lot of cool places to help with his environmental exposure. It takes a village.... to train a working dog lol.


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## Holden Sawyer (Feb 22, 2011)

Great job. I am like your mantra of "just a pup." I have a new one and this video was a great inspiration. Thank you for sharing it.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Austin Porter said:


> I was going through all my dog vids the other day and thought it would be cool to do a couple videos of my dog progressing as he grows up. The first clip in the video is Djanko after the 16 hr car ride home. He was just shy of 7 weeks. The last clip was taken when he was about 10.5 months old. Let me know what you think
> 
> http://youtu.be/buakL5yLxi0


Austin do you do any bite work with your puppy when his teething?
and what is your policy with lifting a puppy of the ground when his on the tug, yay or nay?
also at what age do you think its ok to start choking the pup of the tug?
cheers


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> Austin do you do any bite work with your puppy when his teething?
> and what is your policy with lifting a puppy of the ground when his on the tug, yay or nay?
> also at what age do you think its ok to *start choking the pup of the tug?*
> cheers


WTF?!?!?!?!
Just before you alpha roll it and step on it's neck to show it who's boss..............#-o


I know this isn't addressed to me Micheal but I am in a fairly good position to answer this.
As for teething it depends on the pup.
None of mine have ever given a shit, teething or not they have got on with it. Now whether you should or not is a matter of debate indeed, wrong puppy you could put them off for life, like yours or it won't phase them a bit. Sali ahas lost a few baby teeth whilst playing tug with me, quite a bit of blood in her gob, but she didn't care left it over night and next day she was fine. 
Luna didn't loose any playing tug or if she did she swallowed them and no bleeding, same with my EBT, my dobes were put off a bit and I had a phase of loss of bite but they came through it fine.

As for lifting the pup off the ground, I don't know the definitive answer to that, all mine have done it, I feel more confident doing it to Bull terriers and dobes than my Mal as she seemed less robust. I don't think there is any NEED to do it, just sometimes it goes that way in the game. If you want to train your pup to pull harder then let it win when it pulls. If you can't get it to pull step lightly on it's toes or get someone to pull on a harness to increase grip.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> WTF?!?!?!?!
> Just before you alpha roll it and step on it's neck to show it who's boss..............#-o
> 
> 
> ...


he could have meant just lifting the pup off of the tug.

Matt, how do you get your pups off of the tug, when you want it back?


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Michael, no I don't do any bite work when a pup is teething. The amount of progress you might make is tiny compared to the damage you could cause. I don't want my pup to associate bite work, or any work for that matter, with a negative experience. Do I think Djanko would have probably bitten a sleeve while he was teething? Yes, I'm sure he would have, but it wasn't worth the risk in my opinion. We do a ton of agitation work and drive building during that time. After a long session on back tie or watching the other dogs work I would flip him a rag and let him carry it off the field, but no tug. 

I do lift my pups off the ground when playing tug. Everything I do is very calculated and deliberate with a pup. I lift the pup off the ground to use gravity as a back tie and to get the dog comfortable with being off the ground. I DON'T do it to see how long he can stay on or to try and get him off or to show off on youtube lol. I never lift a young pup very high either, just in case he pops off. 

Choking/lifting the pup off a tug... Well, You must first ask your self why you are doing it. I met with a guy one time that was choking a 7 month pup off every bite. I asked him why, he replied, "that's the way the those police dog trainers do it." True story. I did a little work with the pup on a sleeve and every time I would even pretend to touch his collar he would come off bite. 
I use a choke/lift off for a few reasons. First, I use it to get a pup off bite and increase drive for the bite. I lift the pup/dogs front feet a few inches off the ground and hold it until he releases. What makes it successful for me is I use it in a 3:1 ratio (3 fake lift offs for every 1 real choke off) I mix it up so the dog doesn't think he is going to loose it every time his collar is touched. You will actually see the dog bite harder and wrap up when his collar is pulled on, and once you release the dog, they generally dig in with a deep re grip. Same kind of thing as working a dog on back tie or the handler using the leash to create oppositional reflex. Doing lift offs and fake lifts also decreases collar sensitivity which is important when the dog is learning to fight man later on.

The most important part about all this is you that you cant train every pup/dog the same. The pup you get might not be able to handle or need to be choked off. Train the dog in front of you, find out what works best with him. AND don't do anything without first asking yourself why am I doing this and what will I gain/loose. 

Sorry to be long winded, I just remember asking these same questions when I was first getting started. A lot of the "why" is not explained in the videos.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

*** The 3:1 ratio was a random number I through out lol... Sometimes its 10:1, sometimes 1:3. Depends on what is taking place in the training session. I just never wanna see a dog let go just because I touch his collar and cut his air a bit. I want to see them bite harder because they think they are going to loose it.***


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Depends on the age and whether I have trained an out yet as a separate ob exercise.
I have used various methods over the years for pups depending on the pups character and what will work with it best.

For pups that like to entertain themselves, i.e high kill/dissect part of their prey drive, I make the tug dead by either holding it very still or if the pup is a thrasher I step on the tug on the ground to really get control of it and as soon as the dog releases I let it have it again or another tug.

For pups that really like the game WITH me I play two tugs as in my vid the other day. Marking the dropping of the first tug and letting it get a bite on the second as a reward.

For pups that have very high hold part of their prey drive I swap it for a high value treat and overlap 'out' with the release, usually this is what I do for bully pups, seems to work well with their 'drives' but sali is needing this atm. The tug then comes alive again to balance out the food/play(prey) drives.

The last method is my latest and favorite as it seems so far to produce a good balance of food and tug (toy) drive so I can swap between the two during training sessions quite easily.

Here is a quick vid of Luna and Sali. Luna knows the game well but is not too fussed today due to her season. Sali is still learning outs and because she has very high hold part of her prey drive I have had to use the treat method. What you see me doing in the vid is giving her the physical cue she is used to, i.e my hand going in my pocket but she is having no treat, I am fading the actual treat. Maybe another example of how the actual treat is not the reinforcement, hahahaahhahaha!
Anyway Vid one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz7vbBj8Bw8&feature=youtu.be

Vid two is luna learning out at 7 weeks old, luckily I vid EVERYTHING lol, I find it very useful to gauge improvement and plan training sessions, it is also very good to see **** ups I make.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imFMMDdFY4Y

I only start other methods of outing/release when the dog knows the score and is being belligerent or too high in drive to hear the command. I read an interesting article by the way about why this happens.
I used to flank the dog, but found that it was very sketchy for my health, especially EBT's which WILL redirect, aiming straight for your face if you bend over rather than kneel and reach forward. 
Choking off or hanging the dog is not my preference at all, if I have to do it this way, rather than hang the dog, I grab its collar or harness real tight and press my thumb at the base of it's trachea, just above the chest muscles, this induces vomiting reaction and the dog spits the tug/sleeve/bad guys leg/whatever out.
I think this is less damaging to the dog as some dogs you can hang them till they pass out, which is no good for their souls, or mine, lol

If on the other hand Micheal is mistaking pulling the dog off the tug to increase frustration, I do this with either a harness or wide agitation collar to avoid 'choking' the pup/dog.

This is shit I just learned from experience, please feel free to disassemble johny five if it takes anyone's fancy, I am always up for a bit of learning.

Edit: this has cross posted with Austins so sorry to repeat what he has said.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Matt Vandart said:


> Depends on the age and whether I have trained an out yet as a separate ob exercise.
> I have used various methods over the years for pups depending on the pups character and what will work with it best.
> 
> For pups that like to entertain themselves, i.e high kill/dissect part of their prey drive, I make the tug dead by either holding it very still or if the pup is a thrasher I step on the tug on the ground to really get control of it and as soon as the dog releases I let it have it again or another tug.
> ...


Don't think you really repeated anything.

**The choke off/lift off is totally unrelated to the formal OUT command (for me). I don't teach an out until the dog is at least 6-8 months. There are a few things I look for in the dog before we are ready to start teaching the out, its not something I rush into. The choke off/lift off is a drive building tool and way to get a 8 month old pup off the suit or sleeve.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Austin Porter said:


> Don't think you really repeated anything.
> 
> **The choke off/lift off is totally unrelated to the formal OUT command (for me). I don't teach an out until the dog is at least 6-8 months. There are a few things I look for in the dog before we are ready to start teaching the out, its not something I rush into. The choke off/lift off is a drive building tool and way to get a 8 month old pup off the suit or sleeve.


+1..

that is what I meant when I asked the question, how to get the tug back, while keeping drive up and building on it, so you can repeat or end game, not for outing...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

> If on the other hand Micheal is mistaking pulling the dog off the tug to increase frustration, I do this with either a harness or wide agitation collar to avoid 'choking' the pup/dog.





> I use a choke/lift off for a few reasons. First, I use it to get a pup off bite and increase drive for the bite. I lift the pup/dogs front feet a few inches off the ground and hold it until he releases.





> The most important part about all this is you that you cant train every pup/dog the same. The pup you get might not be able to handle or need to be choked off. Train the dog in front of you, find out what works best with him. AND don't do anything without first asking yourself why am I doing this and what will I gain/loose.





> I have used various methods over the years for pups depending on the pups character and what will work with it best.


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## Brandon Durham (Jan 24, 2013)

Thanks for sharing. That pup looks great!


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

lol got it Matt. Maybe I was confused on what you were saying, I didn't see the similarities, there was a lot of info there. 

But just so everyone is clear on what I am talking about.

I do CHOKE the dog off. I don't know how you wouldn't cut a little air off when you do this even with a wide agitation collar.  Its Not the only way to do it, its A way that has worked for me.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Brandon Durham said:


> Thanks for sharing. That pup looks great!


Thank you!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Austin Porter said:


> lol got it Matt. Maybe I was confused on what you were saying, I didn't see the similarities, there was a lot of info there.
> 
> But just so everyone is clear on what I am talking about.
> 
> I do CHOKE the dog off. I don't know how you wouldn't cut a little air off when you do this even with a wide agitation collar. Its Not the only way to do it, its A way that has worked for me.


Yes I can expand a bit now the wife has stopped nagging me.

I agree it does choke them off even with a wide collar which is why I tend towards a harness. I became a big fan of harnesses when I learned about dobes propensity towards weak necks.

To expand on the actual point of how I build drive for the tug, I use a back tie and a harness or put my foot on the tug and pull the dog back but let it win and play tug again.
I have found that I prefer to build drive for the tug/bite using drive capping once the dog understands the out command, it fits better with my personality. I have no problem per se with lifting/choking the pup/dog off the tug/wedge/sleeve etc. it's an effective tool. I have just found for my needs I can get the dogs vibrating like a rampant rabbit by outing, capping (in a down) till they nearly explode.
If I was making more serious dogs I maybe I would do it more often.

Like I said I found it less effective with Bullies, because they will hold on until they literally pass out, and they still have the tug in their mouths, which is no good for a fluid session, lol.

The biggest problem I have found with one of my dobes is she will just flip round and bite straight through the line with one bite, I have had to use a chain whenever I back tie her.

FS wife is nagging again.......8-[ hahahaha

Oh and yes I did I mention that pup looks really great! loved the vid.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Austin Porter said:


> Michael, no I don't do any bite work when a pup is teething. The amount of progress you might make is tiny compared to the damage you could cause. I don't want my pup to associate bite work, or any work for that matter, with a negative experience. Do I think Djanko would have probably bitten a sleeve while he was teething? Yes, I'm sure he would have, but it wasn't worth the risk in my opinion. We do a ton of agitation work and drive building during that time. After a long session on back tie or watching the other dogs work I would flip him a rag and let him carry it off the field, but no tug.
> 
> I do lift my pups off the ground when playing tug. Everything I do is very calculated and deliberate with a pup. I lift the pup off the ground to use gravity as a back tie and to get the dog comfortable with being off the ground. I DON'T do it to see how long he can stay on or to try and get him off or to show off on youtube lol. I never lift a young pup very high either, just in case he pops off.
> 
> ...


do you start chocking off at 7 weeks though?
do you use other ways to get them to release the tug or is that just it?
what age do you stop bite work , to estimate the teething period?
is there a risk of injury even if there is no tug involved even if you just let them have the rag?

ps you know its a great answer when it brings up more questions :-D


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

First, I want to say there are ton of people with more experience on WDF than me and I hope they will chime in on all this or correct me. Second, the answers to all of your questions are totally dependent on the pup/dog you are working, your goals, your ability as a handler/trainer, your access to decoys and trainers, time allowed to train, and what you want your finished product to look like. I think this has all been said on here before in some shape or form lol.

Not sure if this is important but keep in mind that my goals are to raise a pup up to be capable of being a PSD or MWD prospect. How and what you train depend on what you are training for. 

Do I start choking the pup off at 7 weeks? Yes, but it’s a healthy mixture of choke offs and fake choke offs. I NEVER want the pup to just let go when I touch his collar. There is a lot more to the why and what to look for when it comes to the choke off in a young pup, it’s not something to be done all willy nilly. If you don’t understand it you probably shouldn’t use it, you really need to be able to read whats going on. Also not every pup needs to be lifted off, there are better ways to do it with some pups. The choke off is just another tool to be used when it’s appropriate. 

Do I use other ways to get the pup off the tug/sleeve? Yes, absolutely. Sometimes you can just catch the pup being lazy and snatch it away. It really takes a team to work a dog. You need a good decoy/helper and handler and sometimes a leash man. A lot of timing and clear communication goes into it. Im not trying to make it sound like some big complex production, because it’s not. You just have to know what you’re doing and have a plan. On a side note, I uses a lot of stuff that the youg pup can’t get a good grip on, like coffee can, or a milk jug. Sometimes the sessions with a young pup are so short, after the grip work, I will just let the pup carry the tug or sleeve. There so many variables to give you a real specific answer.

No there is no specific age I quit playing tug/working grips with a pup. I just check his mouth and the equipment for blood. When I see he is starting to lose his front teeth I really put the brakes on. We still do lots of agitation while they are teething. Lots of time spent on back tie watching other dogs work. 

Something you need to realize is that there are NO absolutes in dog training. What works with one dog may 
not work with the next. The path you decide to take with your dog depends on so many different things. You won’t know a lot of it until you see what you are going to be working with. The best advice for you, and I mean no offence, is to get off the computer and go watch people train, get involved in a club or something of that nature.

I’m not the best at explaining stuff so I encourage others to speak up lol!!


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Well done Austin, the pup looks very nice.
We have a young Boris son up here, so it's cool to see what might be a similar dog. Looking forward to the next video as well.
On a side note, you said your decoys were very new (good work there btw), so how do you like the ALM suits? Compared to other major makers you may have worn?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Like I said I found it less effective with Bullies, because they will hold on until they literally pass out, and they still have the tug in their mouths, which is no good for a fluid session, lol.


many herder puppies are exactly like this as well, they just dont usually pass out as easily as some of the more bully type dogs do .


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Thanks Derek! Yes sir, I have no complaints about my decoys. Its nice when everyone is on the same page and everyone is working towards the same goal. 

ALM Suit..
Great quality and craftsmanship! 
It fits me great as far as the measurements I sent him.
Price was right.
Average break in period.
Average flexibility
Average weight 
I personally don't like it lol but its just the cut. I like something that fits very tight, I like the dog to get man and not just a bunch of suit. I wanna feel the dog Im working. 
I would order one again, maybe, but have it much more fitted and comp weight instead of simi.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> many herder puppies are exactly like this as well, they just dont usually pass out as easily as some of the more bully type dogs do .


I have never see one (Herder type) pass out but I have seen some eyes start to flutter and roll lol. Not something I would promote but its part of it I guess. And I have NEVER seen one not want to go anther round or 10.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Hey Joby or anyone else reading have anything to add to pup questions? Im curious on what others are doing too.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Austin Porter said:


> I have never see one (Herder type) pass out but I have seen some eyes start to flutter and roll lol. Not something I would promote but its part of it I guess. And I have NEVER seen one not want to go anther round or 10.


that is what I was meaning, Matt's post somehow seemed to imply that bully pups are less likely to let go than other breed types.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Austin Porter said:


> Hey Joby or anyone else reading have anything to add to pup questions? Im curious on what others are doing too.


I dont know what you look like, and it is hard for me to see in the videos, but how much of the work did you do yourself, if any, has the dog bitten you with the sleeves on, suit on? or only other people?


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

I do a lot of the pre teething work, not by choice but by necessity. I let him bite a decoy all the way through but when we start putting distractions in, I do it. The margin for error with some of the stuff we do is tight. if a mistake is made, I wanna be on the hook for it. My pups DONT bite me in any capacity after teething. So far there has been no issue or confusion form be doing early bite work. Im the guy in the first few clips. Im the one handling him from 2:56 on. Working my own dogs early gives me a nice baseline, and so far it has worked okay.. knock on wood.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

I would never say "hey, you should work your own dog" but that's just kinda the way its turned out with my dogs.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> many herder puppies are exactly like this as well, they just dont usually pass out as easily as some of the more bully type dogs do .


Lol, probably fitness eh!
Not used to herders. Just for shits and giggles I lifted Sali off the tug yesterday after having a think about what Austin said and tbh my nerve went before hers, she would have gone to passing out. 
She's bonkers.
So far I feckin love this dog!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Austin Porter said:


> I do a lot of the pre teething work, not by choice but by necessity. I let him bite a decoy all the way through but when we start putting distractions in, I do it. The margin for error with some of the stuff we do is tight. if a mistake is made, I wanna be on the hook for it. My pups DONT bite me in any capacity after teething. So far there has been no issue or confusion form be doing early bite work. Im the guy in the first few clips. Im the one handling him from 2:56 on. Working my own dogs early gives me a nice baseline, and so far it has worked okay.. knock on wood.


thanks, sounds like a solid plan. 
more vids to come? OB? Detection type stuff?


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Yes sir.. Ill try and get some uploaded and on here.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Austin Porter said:


> I would never say "hey, you should work your own dog" but that's just kinda the way its turned out with my dogs.


I think that is something that is pretty variable rule, depending a lot on the people, access, the type of dogs, the training style and approach, the situation, the realities of life, the experience level of the dog and the people, and the goals for the work..


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

It just goes to show you that it just takes some dedicated friends, some common sense, and the motivation to get the work done, to do a good job with this type of training. 

A lot of people make excuses as to why they "can't" get in any training...here's a prime example that a little creativity goes a long way.

Good job with him...he's maturing nicely.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Tim Connell said:


> It just goes to show you that it just takes some dedicated friends, some common sense, and the motivation to get the work done, to do a good job with this type of training.
> 
> A lot of people make excuses as to why they "can't" get in any training...here's a prime example that a little creativity goes a long way.
> 
> Good job with him...he's maturing nicely.


Thank you very much Tim!


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