# Type of dog?



## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

Why do policemen use gsds? I asked one of the cops at my school and they said they use gsds for drug detection and rottweilers if they have to run someone down, bc they look intimidating and usually people don't run far?... What is wrong with a rottie (except they're too big and don't have a clear head? lol)Thanks!!


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

From my experience in the PSD's, GSD and an increasing number of Mals are used primarily because of availability. On occasion you will see the occasional Giant Schnauzer, I've even seen the occasional Airedale. I haven't seen a Dobe in over 20 years, which of course doesn't mean they aren't out there. I have one Rott. The biggest problem with Rotties is, they aren't available in numbers; it's difficult to find one that has the nerves and because police departments must be concerned about public image, many departments won't allow them. That is nothing more than perception, but it's a factor none-the-less.

DFrost


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Isn't another reason David that Rotts and dogs like Giant Schnauzers are slow to Mature? By the time you get one of these breeds on the street you'd have a Malinois or a GSD on the street for almost 2 years?


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Isn't another reason David that Rotts and dogs like Giant Schnauzers are slow to Mature? By the time you get one of these breeds on the street you'd have a Malinois or a GSD on the street for almost 2 years?



My understanding is they are too to mature, quicker to retire, more difficult to train and cause too much damage with bites.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Geoff, since most police trainers I know don't work with puppies anyway, maturity isn't the problem. Truthfully, it's just difficult to find good ones.

DFrost


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> My understanding is they are too to mature, quicker to retire, more difficult to train and cause too much damage with bites.


The bite thing is a myth. I'm not familiar with any law suits over the severity of a bite. Once you get past the point of breaking bones, which GSD's and Mals both have plenty of force for that, it really doesn't matter. If basically the availability of quality dogs.

DFrost


----------



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Exactly right David!! The availability of the other breeds are rare indeed, you are truly lucky to find one streetworthy. 

> I personally however prefer to look for the GSD only unless I am having problems procuring a candidate, then I will consider a Mali.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Phil, I agree and it was a rescue. A good looking male, great hip, excellant drive, rock solid nerve. I got him from an organization in Texas called Gifted Animal Program. They teased me because initially I said I didn't want him. After I tested him they just looked at me and said: now what. The department wasn't real happy and told me to make sure he was assigned to a more rural county, ha ha. He's really a good dog, been in service for 3 years now.

DFrost


----------



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> "Cool"! I trained a dobi for street work about 15 years ago. His first bite about shredded the guys arm. A few others were the same result. I was told this was a problem with most of them. No other reason given. Retired early due to an injury however. Man could he move out tracking (off) lead as well as extreme concentration on the track too!!.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

David Frost said:


> From my experience in the PSD's, GSD and an increasing number of Mals are used primarily because of availability. On occasion you will see the occasional Giant Schnauzer, I've even seen the occasional Airedale. I haven't seen a Dobe in over 20 years, which of course doesn't mean they aren't out there. I have one Rott. The biggest problem with Rotties is, they aren't available in numbers; it's difficult to find one that has the nerves and because police departments must be concerned about public image, many departments won't allow them. That is nothing more than perception, but it's a factor none-the-less.
> 
> DFrost


So do you think the police prefers the GSD and Mali because they are more available, or are they more available because the police prefers them??
I get "off breed" people asking me these questions all the time, wanting to know why I dont use pit bulls, dobermanns, rottweilers, Bouviers....etc.](*,) My standard answer is this.......a good dog is where you find him, it does not have to be a GSD, Mali, or Dutchie, and it does not have to come from Europe or European lines. But in my kennel alone I have over 100 dogs per year come through and guess what.....they all happen to come from European lines, and they are all either GSDs, Dutchies, or malis.
believe me, I would rather just pick up a rottweiler or bouvier from my local breeder for a few hundred dollars or maybe even the shelter and train it to do the work i need it to do, but do you think the odds of success would be as high as with the breeds and bloodlines we choose to use from Europe?
I dont want to step on any toes of the "off breed" guys, and I know there are examples of great working dogs with all breeds, but I really have not seen a Rottweiler that has everything that I look for in a police dog. As a kid growing up I really loved the way the big Rotties looked, and I always wanted one. but as I got older I never found one that had the drive that I wanted, let alone the athletic ability and often times they lacked the nerves as well. 
If you were going to have to track a suspect for over a mile in the summer heat of about 95 degrees, then have the dog jump a 5' chain link fence to continue with the track, then have to lift the dog over a 6' privacy fence only to end up with the suspect hiding on top of a dumpster where the dog had to climb up on in order to apprehend the suspect.....would your dog of choice be a rottie? (this is a very possible scenario)
i wont even mention the heat and stress the dogs in Iraq and Afghanistan have to endure. There are several reasons that we dont use "off breeds" in what we do, but those reasons can be summed up like this:
* they lack the working drives and intensity
*they lack the health and longivity
*they cant deal with extreme summer heat
*they lack the speed, athletic ability, and agility that we require
*They usually lack the nerves
*they lack the olfactory system of the GSDs and Malis
These are just my experiences, I am sure some of you know of exceptions.


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

My police K9 is a Rottweiler. He is a very solid dog. He is not your typical oversized Rottweiler. He weighs 82 pounds and is very fast. He does well on tracking and odor detection. He is from European working lines. He does slow down a little during the summer but I try to keep him acclimated to the weather. They are intimidating and have a bad rap which goes a long way with thugs on the street. Rottweilers are not big barkers which is a minus for police work. They also tend to have more defense then prey which is a minus. A Rottweiler must be trained differently then a GSD and it can take a little longer. They are also not the right dog for first time handlers. Even with that said I still enjoy having my Rottweiler on the road with me.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> So do you think the police prefers the GSD and Mali because they are more available, or are they more available because the police prefers them??...............
> 
> 
> * they lack the working drives and intensity
> ...



I don't think it's a chicken vs. egg situation. While both factors play into it, it's my experience that available numbers certainly figures into the equation. If I were to pick one reason it would be because police prefer them. They prefer them for the reasons you've listed. 

DFrost


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Rotties in Aiken county? I think this policeman is throwing you a curve or you may have misunderstood something.


----------



## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

I have to agree with Mike. 
I also want to add that it is much easier to find a "streetworthy" GSD, Mal or Dutch. that will fit your needs (Small, large, fast, slow, calm, etc...) Than it is to find in other breeds. I'm sure the reason for this is that they have been used in this application for so long, but if it aint broke....


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

We've trained Rotts , GSD's , Mals , Dobes , and a couple French Beaurcerons(sp?) . Last Rott I saw was retired about 2 years ago . It was a prison K9 . Great dog with awesome agility for it's size . We called it the Flying Pig . 

The reason we don't train too many Rotts are (A) can't find too many to look at and (B) they don't hold up to the winters to well around here . Same for Dobes , I've never seen one work as a PSD since I've been on (12 years) but we used to have some many moons ago . 

No other reasons then that , that I know of for not using them . I don't think we would pass on any dog that had what it took to be a PSD .


----------



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

The only breed I have seen many examples of that that are truly ABLE to do every aspect of police work and readily available but who will VERY rarely be chosen by departments are pits. I am not a big fan of the breed in general, but I've seen many very nice pits with no more liability or dog aggression than any good GSD or MAL and for purely understandable PR/image reasons, departments can't touch them. 
I have tested countless dogs that shelters called me about as a "high-drive lab mix" that were grossly obviously pit mixes. Many showed far more potential for drug work than labs, GSD and mals I had previously accepted...and I've had to decline nearly every one of them because no dept will even consider one.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Don't say "no dept will even consider one". I have one working now. Had two, but it was so good it was poisioned in it's kennel. 

DFrost


----------



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Fair enough..."very few will consider one". 
I have a little dog here now that is probably a pit/border collie x that came out of our local shelter. Lots of drive, neat personality. I'm just hoping that I can find a demo or performance home for her.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

What's her hunt drive like, Kristina? Could she do detection work?


----------



## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: pit/border collie x*

Don't some flyball folks purposefully breed that mix?


----------



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I have seen a couple of agility dogs out of similar mixes, but don't know whether they were intentional breedings or not. 

Konnie, her hunt drive was pretty good, especially considering I tested her right out of the vehicle, completely new environment and given that we can safely assume that no one has ever done anything like this with this dog to prep her in any way. I have not had her for long enough yet to be certain, but my first impression is that she could absolutely do detection for your average police agency.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Kristina Senter said:


> The only breed I have seen many examples of that that are truly ABLE to do every aspect of police work and readily available but who will VERY rarely be chosen by departments are pits. I am not a big fan of the breed in general, but I've seen many very nice pits with no more liability or dog aggression than any good GSD or MAL and for purely understandable PR/image reasons, departments can't touch them.
> I have tested countless dogs that shelters called me about as a "high-drive lab mix" that were grossly obviously pit mixes. Many showed far more potential for drug work than labs, GSD and mals I had previously accepted...and I've had to decline nearly every one of them because no dept will even consider one.


I agree 100%. I have never owned a pitbull, but actually I do love the breed for several reasons. I have seen more pitbulls come from the shelter that will work great than I have seen Rottweilers come from working breeders that work great........that is the truth.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

*Re: pit/border collie x*



Chad Byerly said:


> Don't some flyball folks purposefully breed that mix?


SOme KNPV folks mix pitbulls in there lines as well.:-$


----------



## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: pitbulls and windmills*



mike suttle said:


> SOme KNPV folks mix pitbulls in there lines as well.:-$


I figured, and just thought they covered it with the "boxers" and danes achknowledged as in the mix. :wink: 

Also, a couple books I have about KNPV and a book on protection dogs (where all the pics are from KNPV) strongly state not dealing with pitbulls. "Thou dost protest..." But also their country had a national ban on pitbulls when these books came out.

Wonder if last year's lifted pitbull ban in Holland will change this?
http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/local_news/Dutch-Agriculture-Minister-scraps-pit-bull-ban.html


----------



## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: pit/border collie x*



mike suttle said:


> SOme KNPV folks mix pitbulls in there lines as well.:-$


Lol...Noooo, really?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've seen more then a couple of JRT x Border Collies for height dogs in flyball. 
:-o Talk about doubling up on OCD and ADHD! \\/ 
Also Pit x Patterdale for lower weight pull classes. Now THOSE are cool looking dogs!


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I spoke to a well known Dutch Police officer who deals with the training of Bomb, Drug and street dogs. I asked him why they use very few GSD's compared to Malis and Dutchies. I asked if it was price. His answer was that they pay over 4000 Euro for a PH1 dog and he could lay his hands on plenty of IPO titled working GSD's for that price and lesser.
He also said that when the brokers rock up with a dozen dogs for sale there is normally a couple of the better GSD's in the mix but every time they test them they get washed out. As far as they are concerned its just not worth the effort of even looking at them, because the % of them being suitable is so low. 
Sure you get the good ones, ask Mike about the GSD that Gerben sourced called "SKY". 
But as the saying goes "a good dog is where you found it"


----------



## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I agree 100%. I have never owned a pitbull, but actually I do love the breed for several reasons. I have seen more pitbulls come from the shelter that will work great than I have seen Rottweilers come from working breeders that work great........that is the truth.



This is so TRUE! It helps that I'm an Am.Staff/APBT owner, so I'm biased. That said......there are some APBT's working for the WSP as detection dogs. My own dog is an absolute beast when it comes to tracking, that dog can track and track hard. She loves it. 

Courtney


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I spoke to a well known Dutch Police officer who deals with the training of Bomb, Drug and street dogs. I asked him why they use very few GSD's compared to Malis and Dutchies. I asked if it was price. His answer was that they pay over 4000 Euro for a PH1 dog and he could lay his hands on plenty of IPO titled working GSD's for that price and lesser.
> He also said that when the brokers rock up with a dozen dogs for sale there is normally a couple of the better GSD's in the mix but every time they test them they get washed out. As far as they are concerned its just not worth the effort of even looking at them, because the % of them being suitable is so low.
> Sure you get the good ones, ask Mike about the GSD that Gerben sourced called "SKY".
> But as the saying goes "a good dog is where you found it"


It is true that Sky was one of the best GSDs I have ever seen, but he was nowhere in the same game as Arko and Endor . The new GSD that we just got in (ORRY) is actually nicer than SKY was. But please dont ask me to chose between him and Arko or Endor when it comes to what type of dog I prefer for myself.


----------



## Mark Baldassarre (Apr 28, 2009)

David Frost said:


> From my experience in the PSD's, GSD and an increasing number of Mals are used primarily because of availability. On occasion you will see the occasional Giant Schnauzer, I've even seen the occasional Airedale.
> DFrost


David,

Have you seen Airedales here or abroad?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The Airedales were here in the states. It's been several years. One was in Texas, the other here in TN. I doubt the one in Tx is still working, actually probably isn't alive. the Airedale in TN may still be working but I don't know. I trained a couple in 72, maybe 73 for the military. Both were excellant dogs, but I'm sure neither of those would still be alive.


DFrost


----------



## Mark Baldassarre (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks for the reply David! I have a good one now but am looking for a female prospect to breed to my male. ANY leads for WORKING Dales here in the US would be appreciated... if you can remember anything further.


----------



## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

what about Don Turnipseed he is on this forum


----------



## Mark Baldassarre (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks Joe. If Don was producing dogs for manwork, I'd be glad to consider him.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

why not get in touch w/him? if his dogs can handle wild hogs, they should have the drive to handle a puny man, right? but he's pretty picky about where his pups go i think. but only b/c he wants them worked.


----------



## Mark Baldassarre (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks Ann. I'm familiar w/Don & his dogs & there's a lot I like about them! But I'd like to avoid experimentation.


----------



## Guest (Jun 10, 2009)

Kristina Senter said:


> The only breed I have seen many examples of that that are truly ABLE to do every aspect of police work and readily available but who will VERY rarely be chosen by departments are pits. I am not a big fan of the breed in general, but I've seen many very nice pits with no more liability or dog aggression than any good GSD or MAL and for purely understandable PR/image reasons, departments can't touch them.
> I have tested countless dogs that shelters called me about as a "high-drive lab mix" that were grossly obviously pit mixes. Many showed far more potential for drug work than labs, GSD and mals I had previously accepted...and I've had to decline nearly every one of them because no dept will even consider one.


=D> I have had this same experience. It's a shame that people don't give other dogs, especially Pits a shot due to their media buzz but honestly I'd rather leave man-work to breeds that have been selectively bred to bite people. Pits have been selectively bred to do the exact opposite. However, they make fantastic detection dogs and the drive, stamina, ability, heat tolerance and tractability is second to none.


----------



## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

the rottie and the other breeds are not easy to handle llike the mal and GSD they will work every day all week for them selves and their handler no rotweiler and many other breeds will do that


----------

