# Dog outs



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Whats peoples feeling on there dogs outing or other folks dogs having a clean out?

I like a dog to out but if it does happen the second I call for it, I am OK with that too, I also think it depends on the dogs job to really how important a out is, I think its also a consistency thing that gos back to a part of OB. 

In saying that the last time we did bitework with my old mali he did everything clean, a recall, a out on the toy but was a tad bit dirty on the out, its my fault though because we just let him get bites from time to time just for shits and giggles now and I have been consumed in some other adventures, but if we were actively working on something then it would be more consistant and it would be clean again.

Be curious to see how many views compared to responses..........


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

At the core it's certainly an ob thing for me. How much I insist on it being clean all the time depends on the dog and what we're training. I've been celebrating my dog developing a slight out problem this week. He's very obedient and I'd like to see more power in his work. Because he's got that obedience I don't worry about getting a clean out. I'll develop power, let him fight at the out, and then combine both when I want. Hell, he didn't even have an out problem working on a helper today. It's just a slight attitude when he brings me back a tug. I don't even like calling it a problem because it'll never be more than slight delay with him at its worst. I'd still be celebrating I had to double command him one day. Like you said - work on the out and it'll be clean and snappy again. With THIS dog I will never worry about ob (outs) in bitework.

If a dog has plenty of power and control is more of a concern I'll demand clean outs every time. It depends on what the dog brings to the table and what is needed to create balance in work.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> At the core it's certainly an ob thing for me. How much I insist on it being clean all the time depends on the dog and what we're training. I've been celebrating my dog developing a slight out problem this week. He's very obedient and I'd like to see more power in his work. Because he's got that obedience I don't worry about getting a clean out. I'll develop power, let him fight at the out, and then combine both when I want. Hell, he didn't even have an out problem working on a helper today. It's just a slight attitude when he brings me back a tug. I don't even like calling it a problem because it'll never be more than slight delay with him at its worst. I'd still be celebrating I had to double command him one day. Like you said - work on the out and it'll be clean and snappy again. With THIS dog I will never worry about ob (outs) in bitework.
> 
> If a dog has plenty of power and control is more of a concern I'll demand clean outs every time. It depends on what the dog brings to the table and what is needed to create balance in work.


Alrighty, thanks. any other takers


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Obedience all the way! How clean it is just amounts to how well it's trained, or as you said, how important it is to the handler.
I think one of the biggest probles is the handler/trainer that immediately pulls the tug, sleeve, etc back immediately after the out. That's going to create prey in the dog. I want a dog that will back off the tug, sleeve, etc while I hold the object steady. That may be with a few extra tugs because I'm pretty much the same on that issue.
I will say this is a sport thing for me because a street k9 isn't going to have the perp stand still so the dog can back off the bite.
Sport or street have their own issues with the out.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Obedience all the way! How clean it is just amounts to how well it's trained, or as you said, how important it is to the handler.
> I think one of the biggest probles is the handler/trainer that immediately pulls the tug, sleeve, etc back immediately after the out. That's going to create prey in the dog. I want a dog that will back off the tug, sleeve, etc while I hold the object steady. That may be with a few extra tugs because I'm pretty much the same on that issue.
> I will say this is a sport thing for me because a street k9 isn't going to have the perp stand still so the dog can back off the bite.
> Sport or street have their own issues with the out.


I hear ya Bob OK, gothca 

any other takers


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I am not sure what exactly what your asking about.

but I have been thinking about the out a lot lately. I think the out is combination of a few things. First obviously, Obedience, It's defintly an Obedience exercise. I also think that thier are social aspects to the out, just like there is the bite. And what I mean by that is the sit, down or stand, those things are pure OB. The relationship can effect it, as it does everything. But the out is extremely intimate for the dog. We are asking the dog give up control of an object they find highly valuable. This requires some level of trust. If we want an out that is not conflictive. We have to have a fair exchange with the dog. If we do not have this, it becomes the slave master relationship and we have to use complusion. And when the out is on the helper, and we have problems...it becomes a mess. It's the dog fighting the helper, the handler and his desire to not let go. I have had this mess in my last dog...and it was not always there it developed later in her life. Obviously that is caused by shitty training. Biut it's what got me thinking about the out, so I did not do the same thing in my new dog. 

I changed everything. I even changed what I want the dog to think out is. my last dog I wanted out to mean let go. This dog I taught him that the out means the toy is not for you to bite right now. What I mean is. I took a toy and taught him in OB to not bite the toy in the first place, and paired that with an out command. I did this by putting a toy on the ground and everytime he went for it, I stepped on it. He eventually quit trying to go for it. I then allowed him to have it. 

Once, I could say out and he would not touch the toy reliably, I would say out with it in his mouth, and he spit it out (not right away but for breveity I am shortening this up) When this was solid, I went to working on trust. One thing I noticed at training wherever I went, is not matter what, when the hander would reach for the toy...the dog would try and race the handler to the toy. And people do everything from just allowing the dog to do it, to punishing the dog for it (every single time and it never got better) So I worked on that, I said, out, and the dog dropped the toy on the floor ( I forgot to add that I do not put my hands on the toy during the outs yet. I think that adds stress to the dog) so I would reach for the toy, and the expected ahappened ...the dog tried to beat me to the toy, I would not allow them access till they stopped, then I would pick up the toy and give it to the dog. This I think teaches the dog...my hand on the toy, means your going to get the toy, not lose it. Getting the dog to trust me. Then once this done, I take the toy say out, and touch there face, when they move out of the way on thier own and do not touch the toy, I reward. I think this teaches them out also means your not allowed to touch the toy. Once this was done, I said out and moved the toy, for the exact reason bob said...to produce prey. But I would not allow him to bite it. So, now I am teachiing some impiulse control. Out means out. Out does not mean out, unless the toy moves. and started to up the amount of attraction. I even would physically push the dog to proof if he would bire out of fustration. Once I have shown the dog every soingle type of vailable I can. Then I work on duration of how long the out is. ANd thats it. I make sure the out in OB is absolutly what I want to see before I put it on the helper. And the helper outs, I do the same thing, I have the helper give the sleeve, with out on his arm, say out, dog drops sleeve, helper pircks up sleeve and give it to the dog. I think the helper in training really needs to be the dogs coach, and that cannot happen if the dog does not have a good relationshop with the coach. I know a lot of people want thier helpers to mimic the trial helper in pressure and not be the dog's friend. I do not worry about that. Just like a good boxing coach does not try to mimic his oppoonent. the coach teaches the skills so that he can use to beat the opponent. 

As for clean, I think a clean fast out is achieved by the dog knowing the out is going to come. So, I have little cues I provide prior to the out. The dog will after awhile out in response to the cue I teach the dog that this is also faulty. You are not to out, untl you hear the word out.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I am not sure what exactly what your asking about.
> 
> but I have been thinking about the out a lot lately. I think the out is combination of a few things. First obviously, Obedience, It's defintly an Obedience exercise. I also think that thier are social aspects to the out, just like there is the bite. And what I mean by that is the sit, down or stand, those things are pure OB. The relationship can effect it, as it does everything. But the out is extremely intimate for the dog. We are asking the dog give up control of an object they find highly valuable. This requires some level of trust. If we want an out that is not conflictive. We have to have a fair exchange with the dog. If we do not have this, it becomes the slave master relationship and we have to use complusion. And when the out is on the helper, and we have problems...it becomes a mess. It's the dog fighting the helper, the handler and his desire to not let go. I have had this mess in my last dog...and it was not always there it developed later in her life. Obviously that is caused by shitty training. Biut it's what got me thinking about the out, so I did not do the same thing in my new dog.
> 
> ...


Its just a general question and then however you want to answer it, nothing less and nothing more. Like you said it depends on dog and handler, every relationship is different.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Actually I was recently at a seminar which was given to explain the new rules in IPO. One of the things that was mentioned was that the judges want to see a definite transition phase from fight to out when the helper stops moving, instead of the dog who pops off the sleeve the moment the helper freezes, along with emphasizing they want to see correct and intense guarding after the out, whether active or silent.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Actually I was recently at a seminar which was given to explain the new rules in IPO. One of the things that was mentioned was that the judges want to see a definite transition phase from fight to out when the helper stops moving, instead of the dog who pops off the sleeve the moment the helper freezes, along with emphasizing they want to see correct and intense guarding after the out, whether active or silent.


 
Susan did you go to that one with Craig Groh and Nathianel Roque in SoCal?

The out thing, I am glad that is cleared up. I mean I never has an automatic out but I did see judges ding on it and some not, The Guarding after the outs being intense is not new.

I am going to PM you if that's cool about some rule changes.


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

I train in IPO and I think the out phase of the protection work is very important. At the AWDF last year, many dogs lost points for not having a clear out. My definition of a clear out is the dog having a full calm grip until the handler commands out whether the helper is still moving or not. The dog must open his mouth and move away from the sleeve, not just open his mouth. It is unclear to the dog when the dog starts chewing on the sleeve, the grip shifting on the sleeve, or when he automatically outs. I think the automatic outs are a result of the dog always getting an out command when the helper locks up. The automatic out should be a point deduction in my opinion. If the dog always knows when the out is coming, you will create this automatic out. The dog should not know when it is coming but should have an instant reaction as soon as the command is given whether the sleeve is behind the helper or in front. The out must be clear between the handler and the dog before the decoy is included.

Here is a link to a great out in my opinion. Look at the March 2010 Training video

http://www.knutfuchs.de/index_en.php?r=video&vid=videos2


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Paul R. Konschak said:


> I train in IPO and I think the out phase of the protection work is very important. At the AWDF last year, many dogs lost points for not having a clear out. My definition of a clear out is the dog having a full calm grip until the handler commands out whether the helper is still moving or not. The dog must open his mouth and move away from the sleeve, not just open his mouth. It is unclear to the dog when the dog starts chewing on the sleeve, the grip shifting on the sleeve, or when he automatically outs. I think the automatic outs are a result of the dog always getting an out command when the helper locks up. The automatic out should be a point deduction in my opinion. If the dog always knows when the out is coming, you will create this automatic out. The dog should not know when it is coming but should have an instant reaction as soon as the command is given whether the sleeve is behind the helper or in front. The out must be clear between the handler and the dog before the decoy is included.
> 
> Here is a link to a great out in my opinion. Look at the March 2010 Training video
> 
> http://www.knutfuchs.de/index_en.php?r=video&vid=videos2


I like your statement : The dog should not know when it is coming but should have an instant reaction as soon as the command is given whether the sleeve is behind the helper or in front. The out must be clear between the handler and the dog before the decoy is included.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Harry I would view it three ways: an obedience lesson, a safety tool, and a liability area.

All things boil down to OB, the dog/puppy MUST obey the handler 24/7.
As a safety tool in training, if the dog bas a bad bite on the sleeve or decoy and you need to readdress a proper bite, the "out" is the way to go.
From a liability position, I think a 1 or 2 command "out" saves your butt and shuts down the anti working dog folks. The command was given and the dog followed, this is much like a call off! Also you don't have a fight at one end of the leash and a battle at the other. It is what it is!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Harry I would view it three ways: an obedience lesson, a safety tool, and a liability area.
> 
> All things boil down to OB, the dog/puppy MUST obey the handler 24/7.
> As a safety tool in training, if the dog bas a bad bite on the sleeve or decoy and you need to readdress a proper bite, the "out" is the way to go.
> From a liability position, I think a 1 or 2 command "out" saves your butt and shuts down the anti working dog folks. The command was given and the dog followed, this is much like a call off! Also you don't have a fight at one end of the leash and a battle at the other. It is what it is!


yup like it like that too


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for me ...
if you always let the dog bite when it wants to, it will probably be more inclined to out when (and if) it wants to :-(

to me it is 150% ALL OB, exactly like ANY other command you give your dog, and is the clearest measure of how much control the handler REALLY has over their dog
- a great dog will bite when it's told to, keep biting if it's told to, NOT bite even when it is charging towards a bite and called off, and immediately out when it's told to under any situation ... on the field or on the street
- very few great dogs out there, but lots of good ones
- and lots of handlers who rationalize why an out doesn't have to be obeyed when given and allow it to be a grey area of OB compliance (i'm guilty a lot)

and i understand there are those who have reasons they don't want to train an out on command and would rather pull the dog off, but it is my gut feeling that slow or sticky outs are conditioned at an early age by owners who think it "comes later"...... and then when later comes, it's that much harder for the dog
- but since the "out" is harder to train than the "in" i've often wondered why it's trained later ?? maybe for fear of not building a good "in" ?? i think as long as the dog is clear that it will get plenty of chances to bite again when it outs, nothing breaks down when you concentrate on the out early in training
- i don't feel it is much of a trust issue but really haven't thought about that angle much but will now

i'm curious, are there other commands people feel don't need to be complied with when given by a handler, or just the out ?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Out means out, and it means now. Pretty simple in my book 

Doesn't mean that's the results I always get, but it's the results I am looking for, just like I want any other obedience command to be responded to right away.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Out means out, and it means now. Pretty simple in my book
> 
> Doesn't mean that's the results I always get, but it's the results I am looking for, just like I want any other obedience command to be responded to right away.



Way to simple Kadi! :lol::wink:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Out means out, and it means now. Pretty simple in my book
> ...


 Kadi the same mindset for working sheep, "That'll do" means we are done and DON'T even think about going back for seconds!=D>


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

rick smith said:


> for me ...
> if you always let the dog bite when it wants to, it will probably be more inclined to out when (and if) it wants to :-(
> 
> to me it is 150% ALL OB, exactly like ANY other command you give your dog, and is the clearest measure of how much control the handler REALLY has over their dog
> ...


The only reason to choke a dog off in training in my eyes is one and only one scenario, Its a dog that is a house dog or property dog or junkyard dog. I consider a house dog a junkyard dog with OB :lol:.

My reasoning and the best way I guess I can put it maybe in peoples eyes to enlighten them is this scenario in which I wish on nobody.

OK guy breaks in the house the husband is not home but the wife and maybe some kids are, wife and kids are secured in a bedroom and you let rin tin tin out and he locks up on the guy. I personally wouldnt want that dog outing even if my wife or kids told that dog too till I was there, although the police showing up would be a good reason too but whos to say they get there before you. To me I dont own dogs for pets or family members, they are tools and if they dont serve a purpose or are going to serve a purpose in life then I dont know want it. I can have a fish or bird or some crap like that. this is just me though and everybody else has there reasons. For the record I have a dog that outs but is a sliitle slow do to me and repitition of the out training. This was just a example of why I would except a dog not outing in my life.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Out means out, and it means now. Pretty simple in my book
> 
> Doesn't mean that's the results I always get, but it's the results I am looking for, just like I want any other obedience command to be responded to right away.


I concur in whole of your statement, and I also dont have a dog that always gives it as fast as I would like:lol:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> I concur in whole of your statement, and I also dont have a dog that always gives it as fast as I would like:lol:


Harry have you gone back and done marker and rebite reward training...it might make a big difference!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Harry have you gone back and done marker and rebite reward training...it might make a big difference!


Nope havent done anyting, this mal of ours is a good dog, he recalls, he will down in motion on the way to the bite, he will out clean and quick for the toy, but choose to be a putts on the out on the bite, we generally dont always teach him the out that easy on a standard stop and stay still man either - meaning the decoy is fighting as we are wanting the out, so sometimes he still wanting to fight, he also trys to instigate the decoy to move to cheat a bite](*,). But when and if we need to clean it up again and I probally will, we will have the decoy try to stand still to the best of his ability and also I have use a tug for him or threw a ball for him after hes out and it usually dont take long at all, It just takes him to have some consistant training. lately though we have just been letting him get a bite or two though just for giggles to give it fresh in his head. And at some point as they do get older I just say screw it and let the out go and just let the old timers get out and have fun. But to sum it all up I do need to probally get my ass and his ass in gear because he is still somewhat the younger of our two boys, I think he will be 7 this year. so I will ask another year or so out of him and then let him go at the waist side and be a dog that just get a refresher bite from time to time. Theres also a possibility of another boy we might be getting that is the same age as him kinda and if that is the case I will probally let the mali go at the waist side at that point and just finish out the rest of his life and push the brindle for a few years and let him go later on if he does come here.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> To me I dont own dogs for pets or family members, they are tools and if they don't serve a purpose or are going to serve a purpose in life then I dont know want it.


For you, what exactly is their purpose then. You don't do sport, and they sure aren't police k9.
I don't think anyone has even seen video of them doing any kind of work, be it tracking, OB, or bitework. Please post if you have some


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Paul R. Konschak said:


> If the dog always knows when the out is coming, you will create this automatic out. The dog should not know when it is coming but should have an instant reaction as soon as the command is given whether the sleeve is behind the helper or in front.


 
I do not think that's true. I was watching a Michael Ellis video on differental speed in motion exercise. Basically how do you get faster sits, downs and what not. He said many people will try t reward faster responses, he says he believes that the dog cannot pair the difference in speed with the presence of a reward. Rewarding quicker responses does make it likely that the behavior will occur quicker in the future. I agree with this, after having tried it with zero success. It's kind of why the video caught my attention. I had come to the same conclusion. He said what he think does make a behavior quicker, is the dog knowing the behavior is going to be expected soon. So giving your dog a cue that the sit in motion is coming, will help them execute. They do not have to think and decide what to do, they already know what to do. Prepping the dog a little helps them. The next thing, that produces a quicker response is how long after the behavior is completed does the reward get presented will likely make the dog faster on subsequent repetitions. So I just took those ideas and placed them with the out. Now, the dog will start to automatic out, they will try to find the shortest path from the behavior to the reward. That absolutley will happen. But it's no more than a matter of proofing. Just like your idea of proofing the out no matter where the dog is in front of or behind the helper. You remove those varibles. In fact I believe that getting the dog to out prior to the command and then marking with a NRm will make the picture of what an out is that much clearer. because if your dog knows out, but then you add a cue prior to the out command and your dog out's on it. Your dog does not have understand that it's only when say out, should the he preform an out. he's still making guesses at what an out is. And the only way I believe you can remove variables like that is to induce the behavior so you can tell the dog, that's not what I want. Just like if a dog figures out the lock up is a cue the out is coming, I say good. I hope the dog ****s it up and outs at the wrong time. Then I can teach him that outing at lock up is wrong. 

I also took some of what Bart Bellon says about the dog thinking in pictures. The dog at first has no idea what the out picture looks like, then you teach him at first, the first thing he starts doing in his brain is making pictures of what he thinks may have produced a reward or punishment. So in his brain at first, is 100 pictures, all kind of similar but yet a little differnt to him. So, he starts to sift through them during subsequent reps, throwing out the pictures that do not produce. He gets it down to 50 pictures on his own just through the learning phase. We need at first to get it down to one picture.. let go of the toy, without touching it again (we will just say for arguments sake this is out starting criteria) So we do outs on a tug with the dog in front of us, we stop the motion to help him along when we ask for an out, we nrm when he touches. WE get out to look like what we want. A dog that pops off, not touching the toy, not trying to re-engage it, There the basic idea is taught 
( do not beat me to death, I know people may want more on out than that, but it's for the sake of information). Now, we start to add pictures we want into his head. We put the dog behind us, inbetween our legs, far away...showing him out is always the same thing: A dog that pops off, not touching the toy, not trying to re-engage. No matter WHERE he is. THen we add more variables, decoy keeps moving, add a whip cracking, decoy shoving the outed sleeve in his face: showing him out is always the same thing;A dog that pops off, not touching the toy, no trying to re-engage. no matter WHAT is happening. Then we see if the dog will out by himself on a lock up (and this is no different than teaching a dog to wait for the send out command, or a command to bite, it's the exact same thing...impulse control) And this teaches the dog WHEN to out. The better you narrow down what the picture is in the dogs brain, the clearer. 

I know a lot of people look poorly on a dog that automatically outs, the think it's some kind of weakness in the dog. But really the automatic out is just a dog that has been allowed to choose something else as his out command. But a lot of people think that the handler should be the only driving power behind a dog that decides to disengage. When only rewards and punishments have the power to be the driving force behind a behavior. And a dog that has been taught that an out is just a means to start the fight again. That's all the dog is still trying to do with an automatic out, get one nanon second faster back on that fight.

I hope that shed a little more light on my reasoning. Again, a lot of my training is based on trying to get the dog to do it wrong so I can show them what behaviors do not produce rewards.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> For you, what exactly is their purpose then. You don't do sport, and they sure aren't police k9.
> I don't think anyone has even seen video of them doing any kind of work, be it tracking, OB, or bitework. Please post if you have some


Sorry Todd dont have video, I know other members of upstate K9 love videos and you guys are video junkies, but unfortunately I am not. Actually we have place and sold dogs to to departments too, so on that note to make a goofy comment that they sure arent police k9 is kinda making assumptions on your part, dont you think, but on the other hand no I have not certified with a police dog nor titled a sport dog. People here have seen me work my dogs, wheter they see this or not and post is fine with me either way, on the other hand I am not going to run to a phone and start calling them to post for me like some people do here. Or even better yet come to my place or maybe we can arrange something ( although I am not driving to no where ville 9 hours north of NYC either, hell its cold take a vacation south ) .If you like though I will give you my number and you can call me, standby for a PM Mr. Pavlus because I am not getting into a pissing match with dog people on whos dog is got the big dick:lol:.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> For you, what exactly is their purpose then. You don't do sport, and they sure aren't police k9.
> I don't think anyone has even seen video of them doing any kind of work, be it tracking, OB, or bitework. Please post if you have some


Hey todd found some proof that I can work a dog for ya, while your at it pass it on to your boy Greg, maybe you guys can stop sounding like broken records, wheres video - wheres video, blah blah blah. He guess what theres no video on this link but it verifies I do more than just talk. Have a good one would ya and go train and worry about your stuff and not worry about everybody else so much

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f26/whos-training-whos-not-20233/ do me a favor dont bother the folks on that thread and overwelm them with the crap either because they have other things to do as well in life, you can get more than a hint to me.

Its a thread started by me back in the day called whos training and whos not, if you have a hard tiime with it you got my number now call me, but I doubt you will need to call me being that you guys are such internet promoters:roll:, I have stuff on my personal facebook too that some folks have seen but am not looking to add folks that are going to break balls and harass folks because there not big time youtubers. on that note best of luck to use guys and wish you a healthy and logevity in the working dog world.

Oh yea as of about probally around midnight I will be hit and miss here ( wrote that much earlier before you posted so dont assume things on another post ), sorry got to get back to my life whatever that may be tommorow , you know kids, kid sports, work, business,etc..... just for a few. like I said call me. If you cant get me here.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Firstly to me the out is one of those things that is built for creating conflict between and the dog if done incorrectly. 

I think a snappy out is really impressive. Do I get it all the time? Hell no...but thats what keeps me trying lol ..(maybe one of these days)

There are some dogs that are genetically engineered to NOT want to let go of the object. Its tougher with them but they are usually the ones that bring the power too lol.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Firstly to me the out is one of those things that is built for creating conflict between and the dog if done incorrectly.
> 
> I think a snappy out is really impressive. Do I get it all the time? Hell no...but thats what keeps me trying lol ..(maybe one of these days)
> 
> There are some dogs that are genetically engineered to NOT want to let go of the object. Its tougher with them but they are usually the ones that bring the power too lol.


I agree with you in your last statement not saying I dont agree with the first too, I am just referring to the last one though, I do think that all dogs will out, but agree that some genetics defently bring more and less to the table for sure in power and being stubborn, other than that I dont want to say to much because now I am not sure if I am qualified anymore too:lol:;-)


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

James Downey said:


> I do not think that's true. I was watching a Michael Ellis video on differental speed in motion exercise. Basically how do you get faster sits, downs and what not. He said many people will try t reward faster responses, he says he believes that the dog cannot pair the difference in speed with the presence of a reward. Rewarding quicker responses does make it likely that the behavior will occur quicker in the future. I agree with this, after having tried it with zero success. It's kind of why the video caught my attention. I had come to the same conclusion. He said what he think does make a behavior quicker, is the dog knowing the behavior is going to be expected soon. So giving your dog a cue that the sit in motion is coming, will help them execute. They do not have to think and decide what to do, they already know what to do. Prepping the dog a little helps them.
> 
> *How do you cue the out during the protection phase at a trial? During OB you are next to the dog and praise between exercises. This does not occur during protection. If the command is clearly understood by the dog and without conflict, the dog will respond quickly. A famous world champion trainer stated that a fast sit is the product of a lot of compulsion or zero compulsion. Do you belive this to be true? Can the cue to the dog cause the dog to make an error by executing the command before it is spoken?*
> 
> ...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

_I do not think that's true. I was watching a Michael Ellis video on differental speed in motion exercise. Basically how do you get faster sits, downs and what not. He said many people will try t reward faster responses, he says he believes that the dog cannot pair the difference in speed with the presence of a reward. Rewarding quicker responses does make it likely that the behavior will occur quicker in the future. I agree with this, after having tried it with zero success. It's kind of why the video caught my attention. I had come to the same conclusion. He said what he think does make a behavior quicker, is the dog knowing the behavior is going to be expected soon. So giving your dog a cue that the sit in motion is coming, will help them execute. They do not have to think and decide what to do, they already know what to do. Prepping the dog a little helps them. 

*How do you cue the out during the protection phase at a trial? During OB you are next to the dog and praise between exercises. This does not occur during protection. If the command is clearly understood by the dog and without conflict, the dog will respond quickly. A famous world champion trainer stated that a fast sit is the product of a lot of compulsion or zero compulsion. Do you belive this to be true? Can the cue to the dog cause the dog to make an error by executing the command before it is spoken?*_

I use the obvious cue of the lock up by the helper. I think the WC's statement seems a bit generic, So my guess he's alluding to is that the dog either has the genetic capacity for speed or they do not and the only way to rome after that is force. I guess that's still for me to figure out. because I know a fast dog without complusion who has a handler that fails to reward the sit can indeed make a fast dog slow. But I guess his argument would still stand true, that the dog must have the genetics for speed. And yes, I think that a lot of things we can do in training to try and make behavior can cause a dog to make a mistake. Nothing is 100% reliable.
_

The next thing, that produces a quicker response is how long after the behavior is completed does the reward get presented will likely make the dog faster on subsequent repetitions. So I just took those ideas and placed them with the out. Now, the dog will start to automatic out, they will try to find the shortest path from the behavior to the reward. That absolutley will happen. But it's no more than a matter of proofing. Just like your idea of proofing the out no matter where the dog is in front of or behind the helper. You remove those varibles. In fact I believe that getting the dog to out prior to the command and then marking with a NRm will make the picture of what an out is that much clearer. because if your dog knows out, but then you add a cue prior to the out command and your dog out's on it. Your dog does not have understand that it's only when say out, should the he preform an out. he's still making guesses at what an out is. And the only way I believe you can remove variables like that is to induce the behavior so you can tell the dog, that's not what I want. Just like if a dog figures out the lock up is a cue the out is coming, I say good. I hope the dog ****s it up and outs at the wrong time. Then I can teach him that outing at lock up is wrong.

*I think you are spending a lot of time teaching what is the wrong behavior and not enough time teaching the behavior correctly originally. How are you teaching your dog that outing at the lock up is wrong? What method are you using? What markers? What type of correction?*
_
I am not teaching anything because I am not rewarding it. I am just inducing it. I have had really good results with this. It's all yet to be put on a field with my new dog. but my last dog, I started this at the end of her last trial and the things I did do it were bomb proof. But she did have my old training to fall back on, 5 years of it. This dog seems to be already light years beyond her when she was a year old. As for telling them it's wrong I have a solid No Reward Marker. The word No is pretty important to my dogs. This is a whole other thread for that. But just assume the finished product of the word No is reliable and the dog will stop what it's doing when they hear me say it. The only correction my dog gets thus far is they do not get to bite. I have not had a situation yet where the dog blew me off. I believe this is because I have been very consistent and commited to certain things. like if my dog barks at me in fustration in training. I say no, and they are done for the day. When they were small if I said, no and they did not come, I walked him down and kicked his ass. then gave him another chance to come. I repeated until he got it in his head I will never quit. Once that got in his head, and he believed it. No became a very powerful tool. I know that sounds like Bullshit. But hey, I am the one who has to trial the dog. I used everything from hands to an e-collar with my last dog. All of them never produced a reliable out. And it maybe that I just suck at using them...that very well could be. I have thought that myself. But the fact was for me, they were not working. So, I abandon them. And I went to withholding reward, and also slowly but surley providing more and more stimulation and attraction that I asked the dog to resist the temptation of giving into . Like running blinds. my dog would skip blinds to go to the helper. I tried everything, asked everyone...eventually I just put the helper in the middle of the field told her to run the blinds and had the helper scream, hoot, hollar and crack a whip...and if she listened to him and not me, her prize was starting over. We had some long nights at the field at first. but now, you can lay a pile of sleeves, put helpers in blinds have them call her. And if I say come, she races her ass to me...because through me is the only way to a bite. You get that in a dogs head. You own them. That's more powerful than any collar made by any company.

_
I also took some of what Bart Bellon says about the dog thinking in pictures. The dog at first has no idea what the out picture looks like, then you teach him at first, the first thing he starts doing in his brain is making pictures of what he thinks may have produced a reward or punishment. So in his brain at first, is 100 pictures, all kind of similar but yet a little differnt to him. So, he starts to sift through them during subsequent reps, throwing out the pictures that do not produce. He gets it down to 50 pictures on his own just through the learning phase. We need at first to get it down to one picture.. let go of the toy, without touching it again (we will just say for arguments sake this is out starting criteria) So we do outs on a tug with the dog in front of us, we stop the motion to help him along when we ask for an out, we nrm when he touches. WE get out to look like what we want. A dog that pops off, not touching the toy, not trying to re-engage it, There the basic idea is taught 
( do not beat me to death, I know people may want more on out than that, but it's for the sake of information). Now, we start to add pictures we want into his head. We put the dog behind us, inbetween our legs, far away...showing him out is always the same thing: A dog that pops off, not touching the toy, not trying to re-engage. No matter WHERE he is. THen we add more variables, decoy keeps moving, add a whip cracking, decoy shoving the outed sleeve in his face: showing him out is always the same thing;A dog that pops off, not touching the toy, no trying to re-engage. no matter WHAT is happening. Then we see if the dog will out by himself on a lock up (and this is no different than teaching a dog to wait for the send out command, or a command to bite, it's the exact same thing...impulse control) And this teaches the dog WHEN to out. The better you narrow down what the picture is in the dogs brain, the clearer. 

*At what age can you trial your dog? I can only train once a week with a helper*_
_one of the things I am doing different with this dog, Is I am not going to trial him till he is around 3. First, the way I have thought out his training is not going to go fast. Second, I trialed my female early and by the time she was 6 she was pretty beat up. I think that preserving the dog is a good idea. I have seen and been told this is what they do. And they have 8 year old dogs that are in better condition physically than my female. And Shoot man, right now. I am the dogs helper. I have a few people that come out to help. But they are not well versed helpers. They can give the dog a bite for a reward and that's about it. _

_Paul, I am sure there are many ways to rome. I am sure that the plan you devised for your dog is a good one. And mine is very much an experiment. It could totally leave me out there with my head hung low after showing him. But that's okay with me. I failed my dogs 3 track 5 times before we got it. And those 5 failures have made me a pretty good traicking trainer. So if it does not work....then I will have less pictures in my head about what produces a reward and be that much clearer on what I need to do to be successful. And I have had limited success just repeating the last guys program. Do not get me wrong I have learned a lot from the people who have taught me. But the next chapter in my training is devising my own style. And this has been producing me the results I want to see._
_
I know a lot of people look poorly on a dog that automatically outs, the think it's some kind of weakness in the dog. But really the automatic out is just a dog that has been allowed to choose something else as his out command. But a lot of people think that the handler should be the only driving power behind a dog that decides to disengage. When only rewards and punishments have the power to be the driving force behind a behavior. And a dog that has been taught that an out is just a means to start the fight again. That's all the dog is still trying to do with an automatic out, get one nanon second faster back on that fight.

*I think that the automatic out is a flaw in one's training not a flaw in one's dog.*
_
_I was not saying you specifically. But I did not know if you were eluding to that. Just trying to make clear
I hope that shed a little more light on my reasoning. Again, a lot of my training is based on trying to get the dog to do it wrong so I can show them what behaviors do not produce rewards._


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

If you teach all the basics off the man first, it will be that much easier for you in the end!! Any unwanted issues can be worked on away from the helper, so when the dog first goes on the man, he already is clear on all the rules. He knows that he must bark cleanly, out and pull. 

Cuts down on a whole lot of problems in the long run, as if done correctly the dogs should be in a much higher state of drive when the man comes into play, so a lot harder to teach him then!

It is really no different then teaching the dumbbell basics on the dowel first..

As for the auto outing, out your dog on movement, rather then the lock up.

You can start this on the tug yourself. Our club dogs out during pulling most of the time, maybe 1 out of 5 times we would out them on a quiet hold. 

Auto Outs are a learned behaviour. Dogs show us in trial what they have been taught and been allowed to get away with in training.


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

[U said:


> I use the obvious cue of the lock up by the helper.[/U]
> 
> *How can you cue the dog when the sleeve is still moving, behind the helpers back, or not high enough?*
> 
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

James writes : "Again, a lot of my training is based on trying to get the dog to do it wrong so I can show them what behaviors do not produce rewards."

i really like that technique and use it a lot when proofing
...and i have NO problem whatsoever getting dogs to do things wrong


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

rick smith said:


> James writes : "Again, a lot of my training is based on trying to get the dog to do it wrong so I can show them what behaviors do not produce rewards."
> 
> i really like that technique and use it a lot when proofing
> ...and i have NO problem whatsoever getting dogs to do things wrong


LOL Rick ....hell if getting dogs to do things wrong paid money I'd be a millionaire LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dogs that think and try to get the decoy to move by bumping them...gotta love the game in a thinker!

I have seen dogs which were so conditioned to the "out" that they would pop off before the decoy stops and sets in place. I too like a dog which will remain on the bite, even if the decoy is still and will bite a passive one. 

I feel the conflict issue comes with some dogs that have had lots of corrections *(yank and crank)* and decoys who "cheat." IMO you're building an issue with the "out" command when the dog is dealing with a fighting decoy AND has a handler yanking the crap out of it from the rear...*battles at both ends of the leash.*

Going back to rewarding the fast "out" with a rebite helped in my case. Then, you make the dog wait longer for the rebite and include those verbal markers <something I was NEVER in love with>. In my case, an e-collar on low and vibrate mode also worked.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Paul R. Konschak said:


> [U said:
> 
> 
> > I use the obvious cue of the lock up by the helper.[/U]
> ...


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

James Downey said:


> I am not sure what you mean about the come and the blinds, they are not suppose to be the same princpal. One is a parenting issue, a boundry I am setting, the other a bullshit obedience exercise.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I disagree. I think they are both obedience exercises. The dog was disobedient. The trouble occured when the dog/puppy knew that he was going to get fed everyday and the food was not a high enough motivator to make him come to you. Him being with you needed to be the higher motivator.


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