# Working dogs where are we going?



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Thought I would share a short historical medley of pics and narration
I have seen much of it before but there is an impact watching it to the present
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hex00WjSobE


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Great video Ed. Says it all. Unfortunately, it gives the impression that it is merely show breeding that is the problem. It isn't. As Jim Engle pointed out in his post, breeding for accentuated behaviors for sport and games, is doing the same thing under the quise of "working dogs".


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Leave the show dog folks alone. What they do should have zero effect on what working dog people do. We tend to be like forest rangers bashing bonsai hobbyist. "Your tree is not a real tree. Your tree could not survive in our forest. " No shit. Why even let this mess enter your consciousness? They play their game with the dogs that they like and I play my games with dogs that I like. 

And I don't care if show dogs can't work. In fact it might be a good thing. A guy that wants a big tough breed can go get a bonsai version of the breed instead of the real thing. Now he dosen't get in trouble with a dog that is too much for him and those of us with the real deal don't have to deal with the fallout. 

The only issue for me is the fact that many of their dogs live miserable lives due to genetic miladies.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

imo it's relevant in many areas ...

1. what about the genetic overly aggressive working dogs breeds who are only good for ... breeding ?
2. what about the SIZE of working dogs ? where super-sized seems to matter and bigger is always best .... check out the "old" gsd working dogs, and note how often "size" is often advertised/highlighted as a "plus" for the mal/DS breeds....what scientific research has gone into verifying that a bigger badder mal will be a healthier longer living mal ?
3. and what is the percentage of HARD core working dogs that die a natural death from old age ????? 
.... oh, that data has never been collected :-(
...than maybe we should gather our own statistics from this list ??
my guess it is probably a VERY small percentage

- i think the issue is more about breeding in general than just the show dog crowd, who are always an easy target, but unfortunately MUCH more genetically savvy about "what breeds what" :-( 
...... my gut feeling is the gsd/mal/DS working dog breeders are much less scientific because they are breeding mostly for temperament even tho they don't know where those genetic markers are found yet


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

So Chris collies bred with such narrow heads there optic nerves are disfunctional, king charles with such small heads to look cute and there brain is bigger than there skull, the disgusting list is long and as bad or worse as any physical abuse.

But we should just let them play. Yr wrong dude.


----------



## Ashley Scott (Feb 9, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> So Chris collies bred with such narrow heads there optic nerves are disfunctional, king charles with such small heads to look cute and there brain is bigger than there skull, the disgusting list is long and as bad or worse as any physical abuse.
> 
> But we should just let them play. Yr wrong dude.


Show dog people aren't the only ones that are ruining dogs. What about "working" Mal breeders that have bred them to be so over the top they aren't controllable and have to be put down because they are nuts? That can't be a great way to live. Or what about working Border Collie breeders that breed dogs with bad hips and CEA just because they are trial winning dogs and are registered ABCA only. How is that any better?

I think his point is, is that you play with your dogs and let them play with theirs, and do what you can to improve your breed without judging others who believe that they are doing the same. 

-Ashley


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Leave the show dog folks alone. What they do should have zero effect on what working dog people do. We tend to be like forest rangers bashing bonsai hobbyist. "Your tree is not a real tree. Your tree could not survive in our forest. " No shit. Why even let this mess enter your consciousness? They play their game with the dogs that they like and I play my games with dogs that I like.
> 
> And I don't care if show dogs can't work. In fact it might be a good thing. A guy that wants a big tough breed can go get a bonsai version of the breed instead of the real thing. Now he dosen't get in trouble with a dog that is too much for him and those of us with the real deal don't have to deal with the fallout.
> 
> The only issue for me is the fact that many of their dogs live miserable lives due to genetic miladies.


 
What's really pitiful is that I can probably find a healthier show dog than working. Since just about every dog that I've worked came out of show lines, I tend to disagree with all the show vs. work crap. My show line dogs have worked minimum 10 years and with no health issues. I have run into cancer around age 10 with a couple. I think working line people spend wayyyyyy to much time crapping on show line dogs. They have a venue to create the type of dog they want and need. To what level of consistency are they producing the working dog? Have they improved health and longevity? When they get there, then in their boredom they can chastise the foo foo folks. There are show breeders who have selected against genetic maladies and done a pretty good job of it. Some even strive for dogs that have correct temperaments and working drives for their breeds. Breeding for sport specific traits like all this over the top prey drive is moving at least one breed I can think of away from the dog its supposed to be. 

T


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> So Chris collies bred with such narrow heads there optic nerves are disfunctional, king charles with such small heads to look cute and there brain is bigger than there skull, the disgusting list is long and as bad or worse as any physical abuse.
> 
> But we should just let them play. Yr wrong dude.


And you didn't read and or comprehend my most. Go back and read the last line.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Work/show/trial they have more in common than what they have different.

I'm in the time warp where people breed for;


stable

Brains


Longetivity

instinct

.Health


----------



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

The defense of "show dogs" is admirable on a working forum but they are hardly in need of it.The influence,power,and numbers of the show community is staggering in comparison to the working community.

The loss of function in many breeds particularly the hunting breeds ie Irish Setter,Weimaraner has led to their relegation as pets or confirmation dogs while others such as Spingers have split the breed into Field and show. They no longer resemble each other in ability or appearance.

Facts are facts what happened to the GSD is real,as a working dog it is disappearing but as a breed it is the second most popular in the USA.

There are now many organizations dedicated to maintaining function and ability in the hunting community. NAVHDA being one of the most successful.
Working dogs are very much smaller community and the risk to their breeds would seem very much greater. JMHO


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Work/show/trial they have more in common than what they have different.
> 
> I'm in the time warp where people breed for;
> 
> ...


 
Same here. I've worked with breeders over the years that care enough to haul out their dogs for instinct testing and take my opinions into account. Its been great for me in that they always bring a pedigree [my requirement] and I can just about predict working traits. Rhemy is out of a line that I've tested over the last 15 years and trained. Khyndra is out of a bitch I worked in the Northeast and LOVED. You keep those five things in mind that you've listed and its gold for everyone.

T


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Work/show/trial they have more in common than what they have different.
> 
> I'm in the time warp where people breed for;
> 
> ...


In the world of dogs, those are just mindless platitudes. Different people have different and valid opinions about what every one of those things mean. That makes a list like this useless in the real world. 

But you know what does work? Leaving the other guy alone to do what he he want's to do and expecting him to do the same for you. And when you guys can, you should work together to achieve common goals. Dog enthusiast have enough enemies coming at us from the outside and I think that we should try not to beat the crap out of each other.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Agree about working together, something you dont see much in either sport or show where everyone is out for themselves more or less. Sport/show two faces of the same coin more and more, the sport face is just marginally cleaner.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I am thinking from the perspective of the Border collie. I will only speak for Australian bred dogs. The australian showbred BC most definitely lacks useful working instinct and none of these dogs has ever competed at open level in working sheepdog association trials. They are homogenous to look at with heavy thick coats. The breeders in general are pretty good with health issues and many of these dogs make good pets and nice agility and obedience dogs. Personally I have no problem with these dogs and own one myself. But as a sheepdog forget it in the majority of cases. I guess we dont have any real dedicated sport breeders that I can think of among the show BC breeders.

The working Border collies, well they are a mixed bag, sometimes bred by farmers looking to replace their working dogs with their own breedings from local working dogs that have the charateristics that they want.

Some are bred by some breeders more from a trialing dog perspective and there are then breeders who are comitted to breeding quality working dogs for farms amd stations. Health testing is not common. My guess is that in most cases anything that doesnt make the grade health wise is culled fairly quickly. For kelpies the accredited Kelpie council breeders dogs carry a guarantee to work as do some serious working breeders dogs. Quite a few of the more supercharged working BCs end up as agility dogs and the majority of them are incredibly good agility dogs with minimal health issues as far as I can see.

I am confident I can get nice working collies and kelpies out there, but they definitely will not becoming from showlines. How long that will continue with increased mechanisation of the mustering process and the huge decline in livestock numbers in Australia combined with the rise of sport herding and other dog sports I dont know .


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> In the world of dogs, those are just mindless platitudes. Different people have different and valid opinions about what every one of those things mean. That makes a list like this useless in the real world.
> 
> But you know what does work? Leaving the other guy alone to do what he he want's to do and expecting him to do the same for you. And when you guys can, you should work together to achieve common goals. Dog enthusiast have enough enemies coming at us from the outside and I think that we should try not to beat the crap out of each other.


Amen!!!


----------



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

One of Jim Engles articles on the Bouvier seems to address the discussion .
http://user.mc.net/~jimengel/JimRead/Resurrection.htm


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Edward Weiss said:


> One of Jim Engles articles on the Bouvier seems to address the discussion .
> http://user.mc.net/~jimengel/JimRead/Resurrection.htm


Fits in well Ed, as it is not just the Bouvier that has been affected. Again we are faced with terminology. This time the term "reality" is subject to interpretation. The pussified version deals with "their reality" only. Today, it is necessary for many to view "reality" in small personal clips that make it easy to deal with, rather than the true reality which encompasses the full spectrum and the problems involved. Reality today is seen with blinders.

Curious as to which "temperament tests" Jim was refering to in the article. Are these tests for useless behaviors that are so popular today?


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

blah blah blah...get a dog and go to work with him. Simple!!


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Show or Working...if you aren't breeding and training to IMPROVE the standard for use, what are you doing? [-X


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I think the final result will be breed 'splitting' into working lines and show lines. I'm a horseman, and it happened years ago in the quarter horse. You now have distinct lines of halter horses, running lines, cutting/reining lines. I ride cutting horses, so only ones that perform are interesting to me. In reality, this has already happened with german shepherds, there are show/pets, and separate lines which are the Czech-German-DDR lines. I just lost one of these dogs, they are typically sable (not blanketed) smaller, with a straighter back line and a working attitude. It is well on its way already. What you don't want is the ruination of a breed, as in the Irish setters, etc. Better for it to be split and have working dogs for the ones that want one, show dogs for the others. Maybe the Malinois/Dutchies will stay working only dogs???


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> Maybe the Malinois/Dutchies will stay working only dogs???


There are and there has always been show Malinois and DS. And for the most part the show and working groups don't deal with each other. They are treated as if they are separate breeds. The problems start when you try to be all things to all people, like we see in the SV and it's offspring. They have a system that pushes all of the dogs to mediocrity. They make all of the dogs half-ass working dogs and half-ass show dogs. So you end up with a bunch of half-ass dogs. 

And the other huge problem IMO. Is that the cost of getting a dog "breedable" under the SV system is so onerous that people are almost obligated to breed after they jump through all of the hoops. After the initial purchase price, health checks, showing, breed testing and IPO titles a person can easily have $5,000-$10,000 invested into that dog. That kind of money on the line can really cloud a persons judgement. How can you go home and tell your spouse "Well Honey, you know that dog that I have put $10,000 of our money into and have spent most of my free time with instead of you and the kids? I'm going to spay her and put her in a pet home." :-o


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Good points, 

My guess is just burn the stud book and the standard and the people that were supposed to maintained them and replace it with kennel records, health records and performance records.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> I think the final result will be breed 'splitting' into working lines and show lines. I'm a horseman, and it happened years ago in the quarter horse. You now have distinct lines of halter horses, running lines, cutting/reining lines. I ride cutting horses, so only ones that perform are interesting to me. In reality, this has already happened with german shepherds, there are show/pets, and separate lines which are the Czech-German-DDR lines. I just lost one of these dogs, they are typically sable (not blanketed) smaller, with a straighter back line and a working attitude. It is well on its way already. What you don't want is the ruination of a breed, as in the Irish setters, etc. Better for it to be split and have working dogs for the ones that want one, show dogs for the others. Maybe the Malinois/Dutchies will stay working only dogs???


This split has already happened to the Border collie in Australia. I am only interested in working collies and so dont concern myself with the showlines and it doesnt worry me as they are so separate and neither group interferes or concerns itself with the other. 

The Australian Koolie is strictly a working dog and not recognised by the ANKC as a breed which I personally hope continues.


----------



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Breed splitting is happening in many breeds. Its sometimes not recognized but often is denied. The denial is often a self delusion by confirmation breeders who frequently volunteer that there Show Champion could (you fill in the blank) ....hunt birds , do cold water retrieves in an open sea ,track a cougar on a dry day old spoor,bring down a felon in a dark warehouse under gunfire , herd sheep,do first class VPG, Mondio etc *if it was trained for that.*

The major mechanism for the split beside the above is the fact that if not tested (by real work or competition) there is a return to a middling generic dog temperament. This return to the mean is often exaggerated when other characteristics are emphasized regardless of temperament or talent. Breeding for top line or color or length of coat as a by product selects for a temperament albeit not an intentional goal
In similiar fashion if one selects for behavior, speed ,strength, a phenotype results.

Its obvious in many hunting breeds Springers, Labs, and now working dogs such as GSD's or old time working Rotts vs their ponderous show sibs.

The picture below is an American Giant Schnauzer the vid is of the original type brought over to the USA in sixties. 














http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQGd30QSrFU&feature=related


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Leave the show dog folks alone. What they do should have zero effect on what working dog people do. We tend to be like forest rangers bashing bonsai hobbyist. "Your tree is not a real tree. Your tree could not survive in our forest. " No shit. Why even let this mess enter your consciousness? They play their game with the dogs that they like and I play my games with dogs that I like.
> 
> And I don't care if show dogs can't work. In fact it might be a good thing. A guy that wants a big tough breed can go get a bonsai version of the breed instead of the real thing. Now he dosen't get in trouble with a dog that is too much for him and those of us with the real deal don't have to deal with the fallout.
> 
> The only issue for me is the fact that many of their dogs live miserable lives due to genetic miladies.


You make a good point, Chris. I hadn't thought of it this way before. I'm never going to change the mind of those who like show lines, and they sure aren't going to change my mind. To each, his own. The fact that their dogs are little more than crippled lawn ornaments has no effect on me or my dogs. It's bad enough that too many working line breeders place too much emphisis on breeding dogs for the masses (lower drive dogs they can sell to more people), color and other superficial bullshit, to worry about the cluster**** that is the show line GSD.


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

In my breed of choice the catch phrase is "it's the real deal"....Unfortunately most of all these "real deals" never venture past a breed specific event or make it past the club field. 

I'm a firm believer, that while not impossible, as was stated once you start trying to find that best of both worlds or golden middle what you end up with most times is a mediocre dog at best.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> You make a good point, Chris. I hadn't thought of it this way before. I'm never going to change the mind of those who like show lines, and they sure aren't going to change my mind. To each, his own. The fact that their dogs are little more than crippled lawn ornaments has no effect on me or my dogs. It's bad enough that too many working line breeders place too much emphisis on breeding dogs for the masses (lower drive dogs they can sell to more people), color and other superficial bullshit, to worry about the cluster**** that is the show line GSD.


As a former SL owner and very near furture WL owner, I find it amazing that the WL owners place so much energy knocking down the SL, without much if any effort given to the WL's that are lacking or without the true WL capabilities. This should be their focus, but I guess it more acceptable on a WL forum to knock SL's, than WL's.
You may ask why the switch? Well I'm not blind to the fact that the odds of finding a SL with the drive and work abllities of my prior SL are very small. And most likely not one to sell or return a dog because it lacks workabilities. So I favor stacking the deck for IPO and an all around good dog. 
I guess given my former SL's abillities, while not perfect, I have a hard time reading all this SL bashing as if every SL is crap, when it's the WL most of you should be concerned with.

Just my $0.02


----------



## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Well that's the deal isn't Ed? 
That's why ANYBODY buys into a pure breed, because they want the best chance for the 'perfect' whatever. Otherwise they walk into the closest SPCA and they take a dog that seems to fit (ahem, at the moment).

There was a time that SL's and WL's criss crossed and intermingled. But in the USA I personally think those days are long gone outside of isolated anomalies. If one wants a working dog you don't f*ck around looking in the show lines. You want a herder/guardian/personal companion/protector/sport/hunter (pick one, or make up your own), one doesn't look to the show lines unless you want a showline.

Over the years I've talked many friends and acquaintances out of getting any particular type of dog (or any dog) because they admired my dogs so much by telling them directly how much effort it takes to take them there.
No matter whether mixed breed, showline or working line.
The key for me is educating the wantta-be general public to just what it takes to teach any dog to live within themselves in our world.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Randy, I'm not following your point(s). Unless your sighting the obvious.

If the WL people truly care about the GSD as a breed, SL and WL, then it would seem to me that they should place effort on promoting the GSD as a breed. If your neighbor wants a GSD as a pet (most likely 95% of GSD owners) and likes SL for it's looks, wouldn't it be better for the breed that we educate them on seeking out a SL that's sound in temperament and body, than to tell them all SL suck and they should get a WL because of (insert your favorite SL bashing comments here). This is the only way the SL has a chance to recover from it's demise, this is also true to a certain extent of the WL as well.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ed you make it sound natural to have a breed of dog and a caricature of it.

If you had any respect for history and the effort that goes into establishing a purposeful breed and not just see dogs as toys u grab off the shelf to fulfil whatever fleeting desire you have at that moment then mebbe you would have more disdain for the inferior sub species caricature dogs and the scum bags that trade in them.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I think the breeds are improving with time, the glass is half full! Offcourse I'm not including the showline fiasco :smile:


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Ed you make it sound natural to have a breed of dog and a caricature of it.
> 
> If you had any respect for history and the effort that goes into establishing a purposeful breed and not just see dogs as toys u grab off the shelf to fulfil whatever fleeting desire you have at that moment then mebbe you would have more disdain for the inferior sub species caricature dogs and the scum bags that trade in them.


Peter you base this rediculous opinion of me from one post? Your full of of shit! You don't know me well enough to have such an opinion! Go soak your head and take your meds!


----------



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Keith Jenkins said:


> In my breed of choice the catch phrase is "it's the real deal"....Unfortunately most of all these "real deals" never venture past a breed specific event or make it past the club field.
> 
> I'm a firm believer, that while not impossible, as was stated once you start trying to find that best of both worlds or golden middle what you end up with most times is a mediocre dog at best.


Keith, 
As a person who once wrote an article entitled "One Bouvier" and 
came to eventually lose the faith, let me ask you to think about this.

I agree with the "mediocre dog at best" to some extent.

But increasingly the type or style demanded of the show ring 
makes this increasingly impossible. Years ago my friend Pete Rademacher
was trying to do this with Rotties, and he had to go back and forth
something like 30 pounds to be in both venues.

People like to pretend that the "show" dogs are "beautiful"
and "correct." But when I look at a banana back German Shepherd
I see a monstrosity, and I have great admiration and affection for the breed.

I believe in most breeds we have passed the point of no return, it is
impossible to be truly adequate in both venues.

Part of me wishes it was not true, but the rest of me knows that it
always impossible.

What we need in America is not an All Breed Schutzhund entity,
but a no breed entity where a dog would be what he can do
on the field, not what is on a piece of paper.

Under real American control, enough sucking up to the Europeans
who laugh there asses off as they manipulate us, screw us and run
us around like children because it is fun.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Edward Egan said:


> Peter you base this rediculous opinion of me from one post? Your full of of shit! You don't know me well enough to have such an opinion! Go soak your head and take your meds!


 Not judging Ed the person, just challenging one of Ed's opinions for the sake of debate.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Not judging Ed the person, just challenging one of Ed's opinions for the sake of debate.


I call BS! You where obviously judging me.

Do you even own a working dog?

If so what venue do you partake?

If owning a GSD and working it most every day for 5 years is not showing respect for the bread, then I guess I'm guilty as charged! LOL!


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> I call BS! You where obviously judging me.
> 
> Do you even own a working dog?
> 
> ...


Nah... that's showing respect for the dough ! :-D


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Nah... that's showing respect for the dough ! :-D


You can get paid for doing this?


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> You can get paid for doing this?


Pretty sure you can in some places. :smile:

I actually agree with your post, think it quite realistic, there are plenty of WL who are not a lot more than pet quality by all accounts, and there are SL than can and do work. Folks really ought to keep their own backyard in order before beating on someone else's,,, the majority of gsd owners (pet/companion owners) appear to really like what they have.... they would probably like them a lot better if they were of sounder body and nerve in many cases.

My dog is a SL, I really quite like this dog, he was up for anything and everything, good nerves, environmentally sound, social, balanced, confident, trainable, with a strong work ethic, and until he got injured, very fast and highly athletic. He is/was no top sport dog by any stretch, but a good enuff dog,,,,that is..if his injury was not due to congenital weakness which I strongly suspect it was.

If folks were to believe all that was said on this forum,,, they would believe all SL dogs are shit, I do not believe this to be true,,,just most of them.  I would never consider another SL, and that is quite simply down to a little education and experience.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Good call Ed, u saw through my BS, what now, u gonna beat up on me?

As for yr other questions I refer you to a previous post I made on the herding forum, you will find it if u genuinely want to expose my fullofshitness. 

No show lines in this dog.


----------



## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Nah Ed, I didn't say anything different than others. And I didn't mean to start anything.
My only take on this thread is that it doesn't matter what is on the other end of the leash, one works with what is availiable within what is ones means.

For the longest time all my gun dogs were from 'unknown'. Uh, friend of a friend, a neighbor, an ad in the paper or the local SPCA.
To foist only WL dog on the general population though?
It's hardly fair to the dog. 

In some ways mabe the AKC, SV and etc is wise. 
Make any 'general' breed fit the 'general' population......dumb.
Then both dog and person is happy.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Over here (UK), there is a trend with more WL being advertised/targetted at the masses (commercial purposes), and there is a rise in the number of WL coming into rescue which was not common before. But, there is a lot of WL coat covering a pet body. A working dog needs a job, if there are no jobs, what do you expect ? The future probably is in the hands of the enthusiast who is not dependant on the money.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Good call Ed, u saw through my BS, what now, u gonna beat up on me?
> 
> As for yr other questions I refer you to a previous post I made on the herding forum, you will find it if u genuinely want to expose my fullofshitness.
> 
> No show lines in this dog.


I have no interest in investigating the likes of you. I'm simply outing your BS, let it be known.

I've asked you this before. Why is it you fill the need to respond to every freaking thread? Trying to get your post count up? LOL!


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Edward Egan said:


> I have no interest in investigating the likes of you. I'm simply outing your BS, let it be known.
> 
> I've asked you this before. Why is it you fill the need to respond to every freaking thread? Trying to get your post count up? LOL!


courtesy reply only;

i'm confused, you ask me some direct questions which i'm supposed to answer presumably and then u say you are not interested in investigating the likes of me. which is it, were they rhetorical questions???

which BS are you outing, the BS you first reacted to or the BS when i agreed with you that i was BS'ing??? either way you kinda logically cancel yourself out because by your estimation for my second BS to be true must mean my first BS wasn't and if my first one wasn't my second must be true, if its true then its not BS, so which one is it???

" Why is it you fill the need to respond to every freaking thread? " 

check yr maths dude, do a count on that one, out of all the new threads in the last 30 days.

ah, just use the ignore button or start a new thread on how full of sh!t i am and stop the hi-jack. was never even looking for an argument to start with.

cheers


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Ed you make it sound natural to have a breed of dog and a caricature of it.
> 
> If you had any respect for history and the effort that goes into establishing a purposeful breed and not just see dogs as toys u grab off the shelf to fulfil whatever fleeting desire you have at that moment then mebbe you would have more disdain for the inferior sub species caricature dogs and the scum bags that trade in them.


You write a post like above, then tell me that you never meant to start an argument with me or hi-jack this thread. I believe your a bit confused or senile. Anyway have a great evening.


----------



## Les Brill (Mar 1, 2011)

Back to the video-cried when i saw it- two things that struck me: the first is that we are always warned about the backyard irresponsible breeder-I dont think that they are the ones ruining the dogs. Probably get a nicer dog from someone who bred a bitch they liked to a stud they liked than someone seriously interested in showing. Second- I come from horse training- over there when you look at stallions they have a lot of data on progeny and a little on ancestors(usually more if its a young horse)- dogs appear to me to be just the opposite, when it would be more plausible to focus on the success of offspring for dogs when there are so many more of them and they can work at a much younger age(well except for TBs). Yet i rarely see any ads really boasting about progeny.
I also think that balance, brains, longevity, soundness, stability and health are not just platitudes that can mean whatever you want.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

What do you mean by balanced?


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I'm also interested in the meaning of balance.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Les Brill said:


> Second- I come from horse training- over there when you look at stallions they have a lot of data on progeny and a little on ancestors(usually more if its a young horse)- dogs appear to me to be just the opposite, when it would be more plausible to focus on the success of offspring for dogs when there are so many more of them and they can work at a much younger age(well except for TBs). Yet i rarely see any ads really boasting about progeny.
> I also think that balance, brains, longevity, soundness, stability and health are not just platitudes that can mean whatever you want.


With sheepdogs, breeders most definitely look at offspring. Really important when trying to fix certain instincts into lines of dogs. The general discussion is often about how the progeny of certain matings are working.

Intelligence and instinct are interesting, a brainy dog that lacks instincts may not be as good as a less brainy dog that has good instincts, ideally both are good so balance could probably be applied in that context to sheepdogs. Soundness is a given and stability of temperament is also important around livestock


----------



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Les Brill said:


> Back to the video-cried when i saw it- two things that struck me: the first is that we are always warned about the backyard irresponsible breeder-I dont think that they are the ones ruining the dogs. Probably get a nicer dog from someone who bred a bitch they liked to a stud they liked than someone seriously interested in showing. Second- I come from horse training- over there when you look at stallions they have a lot of data on progeny and a little on ancestors(usually more if its a young horse)- dogs appear to me to be just the opposite, when it would be more plausible to focus on the success of offspring for dogs when there are so many more of them and they can work at a much younger age(well except for TBs). Yet i rarely see any ads really boasting about progeny.
> I also think that balance, brains, longevity, soundness, stability and health are not just platitudes that can mean whatever you want.


 
There are numerous opinions on the subject of the thread but what stands out are the *pictures* referenced in the initial post!
The incredible alteration of breeds like the bull terrier is there in all its glory.
Fads, fashions and whatever is more than obvious in photo of the GSD circa 1930 and its modern sloped back over angulated cripple.
For the hard fact oriented the Bull terrier skull of early twentieth century and what exists now is a human constructed ode to fashion and degradation of health and fucntion.
Kumbaya ....shouldn't criticize the well meaning conformation community .


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

working breed does not equal "working dog" period....


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

joby becker said:


> working breed does not equal "working dog" period....


amen +1


----------



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

No problemo 
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...l-akc-recognition-including-cane-corso-16302/


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> I call BS! You where obviously judging me.
> 
> What's wrong with you Edward? You accused me of "busting your balls" because I didn't agree with you.
> 
> I don't believe you've got any.


----------



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Hope ya all got your Edwards straight !!!!!!!


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh jeez!! But, I'm still in a position to differentiate :lol:


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Edward Weiss said:


> Hope ya all got your Edwards straight !!!!!!!


Obviously having a hard time with her own name vs Peter! ](*,)

What are you smoking Gillian?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Edward. why is the onus always with the others?? I gave up smoking years ago - good try!!!!


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Edward. why is the onus always with the others?? I gave up smoking years ago - good try!!!!


Gillian I think your confused is what I trying to say. Re-read the posts.


----------

