# basic position



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

wondering whos dog when it takes up basic position is in perfect position(square with owner its feet behind or level with handlers feet) a good percentage of the time or all the time? How did you achieve it? I see this problem alot with others dogs and mine too where they know position but start to get sloppy particularly when working in drive and not for food and then seem to not get that there ass is 5degs off straight  I have seen where ellis says he doesnt think dogs can see or comprehend the difference..what do you think?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I think it comes down to anticipation myself rather than focus.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

brad robert said:


> wondering whos dog when it takes up basic position is in perfect position(square with owner its feet behind or level with handlers feet) a good percentage of the time or all the time? How did you achieve it? I see this problem alot with others dogs and mine too where they know position but start to get sloppy particularly when working in drive and not for food and then seem to not get that there ass is 5degs off straight  I have seen where ellis says he doesnt think dogs can see or comprehend the difference..what do you think?


they get only sloppy when the handler get sloppy and does not care enough about it. there is no reason for a dog to leave a great position if he get success in that position again and again and get his correction back in this position with following success.

why should you take a other way to work if the street is all time good to drive??you change your route only if suddenly other things come up!!!

the basic position must be a daily routine.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Stefan Schaub said:


> they get only sloppy when the handler get sloppy and does not care enough about it. there is no reason for a dog to leave a great position if he get success in that position again and again and get his correction back in this position with following success.
> 
> why should you take a other way to work if the street is all time good to drive??you change your route only if suddenly other things come up!!!
> 
> the basic position must be a daily routine.


Stefan i completely agree!! I think having a spotter is also invaulable in telling you that your correct because who is to say your standing correctly or that you cant see your dogs ass is slightly out of position when you reward all this could lead to a problem also.

Do dogs know what straight is or do they think if im close enough next to him i will be rewarded because if they seriously got it they would always avoid the correction to work into comfort but they simply dont


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> I think it comes down to anticipation myself rather than focus.


Anticipation for reward = being correct.........


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Proprioception*



brad robert said:


> wondering whos dog when it takes up basic position is in perfect position(square with owner its feet behind or level with handlers feet) a good percentage of the time or all the time? How did you achieve it? I see this problem alot with others dogs and mine too where they know position but start to get sloppy particularly when working in drive and not for food and then seem to not get that there ass is 5degs off straight  I have seen where ellis says he doesnt think dogs can see or comprehend the difference..what do you think?


 Proprioception defined. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proprioception

"The unconscious perception of movement and spatial orientation arising from stimuli within the body itself."


This is why we can get a consistent heel or basic position out of a dog. They learn to repeat what gets them reward, down to where their back end is in relation to their front end.

Reward what you want to repeat. Correct what you want to extinguish. 

Unless a dog has a medical problem, they know where their body is, science tells us that. Our job is to make a repeatable picture for the dog. IE looking straight ahead while heeling in training so it looks the same to the dog in a trial. (NO HANDLER HELP) Reward. Demand the level of perfection you want to see and reward. punish or withhold reward when you don't get it.


Speaking from experience, sloppy reward creates a sloppy performance. Blame the handler, come up with a course of action to fix it.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

*Re: Proprioception*



Dave Colborn said:


> Proprioception defined. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proprioception
> 
> "The unconscious perception of movement and spatial orientation arising from stimuli within the body itself."
> 
> ...


Dude, you have just explained something beautifully for me there, thanks.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

brad robert said:


> Anticipation for reward = being correct.........


anticipation of the next exercise or part of the current one.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Anticipation for reward = being correct.........


not always in the dogs mind


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> not always in the dogs mind


This is what im trying to point out i dont think always the two are inclusive of each other...The dog has alot of things going on that hamper it sometimes.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Brad,

What two things are you saying are not inclusive of each other? Of course dogs always have things going on. What are you saying?



brad robert said:


> This is what im trying to point out i dont think always the two are inclusive of each other...The dog has alot of things going on that hamper it sometimes.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Dave earlier it was said that anticipation = being correct... If this was correct then high drive dogs would with the right foundation and teaching always be correct...There not.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Dave earlier it was said that anticipation = being correct... If this was correct then high drive dogs would with the right foundation and teaching always be correct...There not.


 Brad. Earlier you said that. Anticipation = being correct. Then you said you were trying to point out two things are not inclusive. What two things? The anticipation you say equals correctness?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

brad robert said:


> Dave earlier it was said that anticipation = being correct... If this was correct then high drive dogs would with the right foundation and teaching always be correct...There not.


Dogs aren't machines and they are just as susceptible to outside influence as we are. 
The best we can do is train muscle memory to "hopefully" respond to stimulus the same way every time. 
Those odds go up with the correct dog and the correct trainer but still never perfect.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Brad. Earlier you said that. Anticipation = being correct. Then you said you were trying to point out two things are not inclusive. What two things? The anticipation you say equals correctness?


 Yes sorry dave thats what i was trying to say.



Bob Scott said:


> Dogs aren't machines and they are just as susceptible to outside influence as we are.
> The best we can do is train muscle memory to "hopefully" respond to stimulus the same way every time.
> Those odds go up with the correct dog and the correct trainer but still never perfect.


Thanks Bob.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

brad robert said:


> Dave earlier it was said that anticipation = being correct... If this was correct then high drive dogs would with the right foundation and teaching always be correct...There not.


That's not what I said at all


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> I think it comes down to anticipation myself rather than focus.


No matt that is what you said and I'm not trying to quote you out of context.

I think for the dog to be correct a high percentage of the time he has to be making an effort to be correct to achieve a reward maybe dogs further along in there training dont get rewarded in this position oftenn enough..


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I would like to add I'm talking about being picky the type where a judge will pick you up on a dogs foot being to far forward or the dog not being square....bad marking etc.seems to be at the crux of this and that with the dog not knowing where he is at all times


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

brad robert said:


> wondering whos dog when it takes up basic position is in perfect position(square with owner its feet behind or level with handlers feet) a good percentage of the time or all the time? How did you achieve it?


 Mine do when I care enough to do the foundation right. I have seen several that do. Foundation starts it even if the dog is older. IE if you are working on basic position at any age and consistently accept and reward less than what you want, without moving towards what you want every repetition or standards of progressing, you will have a problem attaining the basic position you want. Use a mirror or a person with a clicker (clicking when the dog is correct, so you can reward and don't have to turn your head to look) to attain it, starting day one. The key to this is knowing what you want as a finished product the first time you start and knowing the steps to get there. If you train it wrong, then the rest of your life you are trying to untrain or cover another behavior (counter-conditioning) vs. teaching one (conditioning). Foundation is key, know what you want.




brad robert said:


> I see this problem alot with others dogs and mine too where they know position but start to get sloppy particularly when working in drive and not for food and then seem to not get that there ass is 5degs off straight


 Experience will teach you to quickly change something that isn't working with a dog. in this context a dog that can't perform well when their reward is actually a distraction. Oversimplified if you have a dog that can't perform exactly what you want in a high state of drive for a tug or ball, reduce them to food for the teaching, and then use the ball or tug when they have an understanding. Some would say, why use a ball or tug if food works? I say, because it gives you repetition for something that actually equates to a distraction in the form of a competing motivation. If a dog that couldn't learn well with a tug present can control himself in the presence of a tug and likes it a great deal as a reward, then you are on track to working around bigger and better distractions.

Never assume that a dog can't be in a higher state of drive for food than a toy. Or so high for both that you have to use a lower form of food or toy, to calm the dog down. IE a dry biscuit vs. a hot dog. A leather strap vs. a tug. Experience will teach you to change what doesn't work. Working towards the fantastic picture you want to end up with.



brad robert said:


> I would like to add I'm talking about being picky the type where a judge will pick you up on a dogs foot being to far forward or the dog not being square....bad marking etc.seems to be at the crux of this and that with the dog not knowing where he is at all times


 A judge can be the enemy or adversary to your program if you let them. They are human and can't see everything clearly or consistently. This is a fact, that if you focus on and can lead to anxiety in a handler. Forget the judges opinion or you are more likely to be training yourself negatively because then it's well, this judge likes this and not this, and this judge likes this, and not this.. Find handlers that get great points under multiple judges in sports you wish to compete in. Train to the picture that they have with their dog. Motivational training does a lot for humans as well as dogs. Not saying knowing your judge or the rules isn't smart handling, cause it is. 

always train to do, not train what not do.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

More awesomeness Dave.

Anticipation of the next move is what I am talking about. Like if you go straight into a left turn the dog sometimes learns to park it's but behind you or even if you do too many left turns this happens.
One sees it more clearly in recall to fronts followed by Finnish to heel the dog 'anticipates' the heel and parks its butt squint.
I had a massive problem with doing to many left turns and one of my dobe decided to start parking her ass behind me, like the dog completely sideways as if I had turned left.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Mine do when I care enough to do the foundation right. I have seen several that do. Foundation starts it even if the dog is older. IE if you are working on basic position at any age and consistently accept and reward less than what you want, without moving towards what you want every repetition or standards of progressing, you will have a problem attaining the basic position you want. Use a mirror or a person with a clicker (clicking when the dog is correct, so you can reward and don't have to turn your head to look) to attain it, starting day one. The key to this is knowing what you want as a finished product the first time you start and knowing the steps to get there. If you train it wrong, then the rest of your life you are trying to untrain or cover another behavior (counter-conditioning) vs. teaching one (conditioning). Foundation is key, know what you want.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post and explanation Dave thanks!!





Matt Vandart said:


> More awesomeness Dave.
> 
> Anticipation of the next move is what I am talking about. Like if you go straight into a left turn the dog sometimes learns to park it's but behind you or even if you do too many left turns this happens.
> One sees it more clearly in recall to fronts followed by Finnish to heel the dog 'anticipates' the heel and parks its butt squint.
> I had a massive problem with doing to many left turns and one of my dobe decided to start parking her ass behind me, like the dog completely sideways as if I had turned left.


Thanks Matt I'm following what you mean and have seen the "squint" position you described.makes a lot of sense in that you may think your dog doesn't know front straight and proper but he is actually setting himself up for a easier faster finish through anticipation


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Positioning should come before focusing. Reward the position - not the focus.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

brad robert said:


> Thanks Matt I'm following what you mean and have seen the "squint" position you described.makes a lot of sense in that you may think your dog doesn't know front straight and proper *but he is actually setting himself up for a easier faster finish through anticipation*


Lol, that's exactly what I am saying, am I writing in Welsh again?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

LOL no mate I got you this time  thanks matt


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Coolio, I thought I might be going a wee bit more insane for a minute then


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Lol, that's exactly what I am saying, am I writing in Welsh again?


Well said.

My maiden Name was Owen!!


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