# SL v.s. WL perception



## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah I know here we go again but I have a different vein hopefully. I wonder about observations to this point. I went to a club that was working almost all SL dogs; it was a well organized club, friendly, fun, pretty organized, great equipment, good TD who was also best helper but was starting club guys that were coming along. Having said all that; what I saw was people ooohing & awing over did you see that! I was see what? They saw dogs come up grab (not grip, more like a retrieve) no power in engagement, no crunches & hanging on for a ride. One young dog WL with first time owner was by far the best dog there. I was there with two other WL guys & we discussed; "is it they only see all dogs look alike, or haven't seen real good work or what's missing? So my question is what is it they don't see or what do they think they see? This isn't a knock on the club just an observation that made me wonder, am I missing something here & from my own point of view. How can we protect the breed? I guess it could be educational also. This was a GSD club but really has to do with all breeds. :?:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Could be lots of reasons. Kennel blind, blind to their own dogs' limitations *OR *they know what they have and are satisfied with it. Hard to tell.
Hopefully they are all having a good time. 
Good breeders will always breed good dogs! You just have to look harder to find them. ;-)


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

They were having a good time & we did too, just can't say it did much for the breed...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I my opinion, the more SL's that are worked, the better they will be breed. What you seen I believe was people not knowing what a good dog is. 

On another note, I hear that the Seiger show dogs this year are much improved overall from previous years. Sure still some 1/4 mouth biters, chewy dogs, but also some that where really good in protection. Hope that's true. Sorry don't mean to highjack your thread.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have been to a few clubs that had a good number of SL dogs, 2 on a fairly regular basis for a couple seasons.

The obedience was for the most part the best of the 3 phases, the protection was the worst for the most part, predictably.

There was one person in particular that was bringing 3 dogs to training.
This person is a breeder of GSD on small scale.

I was an invited guest who came along with the decoy, would just help out some..

There was one dog in particular, that the person thinks is a real good dog, that it was a "killer" lol, because it showed some teeth and gets aggressive with the decoy on the prey guarding, and she thinks that the dog really wants to kill the decoy, I think the dog would not bite the decoy at all personally....

I was bringing my dog for training, and one time after the bitch snapped at me a little out of frustration, and gave me a little re-direct pop..

I could here the other club members talking about my dog, questioning to eachother as to why any person would want to own a dog like mine.

We then did some hidden sleeve, suit, and muzzle work after the club training was over, a few of the people hung around to watch..

The next time I came, those people seemed to be really scared of my dog, because we got into a discussion about the muzzle work we did the previous week... I was telling them that I am pretty sure that my dog would bite and fight a person for real if the need arose. They said theirs would as well, but in their opinion only law enforcement should be training or testing for that purpose, not anyone else... 

so some time passed, and the one person who is the breeder with the "tough" dog, and the helper decided to have me work the dog, frist we tried the blind, peeked out, tapped the blind..dog came fast, turned into the blind, looked up, jumped back about 3 feet with its hair standing up and gave some aggressive barking, I popped the stick up and the sleeve, and the dog acted like it was gonna bite it, and then shot out of the blind and ran around the field.
The handler was mortified, the dog was scared of me, and I was really trying hard to just give it some nice easy bites, no pressure at all...We thought it was important to get the dog to at least bite a sleeve on me, so we went to the 6 ft, with lots of jumping around and prey/frustration... at first it would not bite, then with some coaxing I got it to take the sleeve a few times weakly, and we slipped it right away, in attempts to boost the dog a little.

This is the same dog from the same breeder that is all over PDB acting like the GSD authority, and on her website, there are high praises for the dog and how it is a good addition to the program, and it is a dog produced by the kennels own breeding stock.

I will be amazed if that dog ever titles..it is a female though and has a BH, so that is probably enough 

I think most of those people knew that their dogs were not really strong at all in the bitework for the most part, but that was not what was important to them, their main focus was other things, and the attempts at SCH seemed to be a bonus and reason for breeding, I heard lots of conversations about what dogs were gonna be bred to what dogs, after they titled...because they were great dogs afterall, and were doing so well at the GSD shows, and made great family pets...and my dog was not nearly as good because it tagged me once or twice and "appeared" to be aggressive and scared them when they watched the dog work in things outside of schutzhund..the one person I saw at the vet, when I brought the litter of pups in to get checked out, the person with the dog that ran out of the blind, was telling her friend that she could not believe I bred my dog without titling her..and that the dog was unstable, LOL.... My friend overheard them talking.

In my limited exposure, there were a fair number of people that really misjudged there dogs strengths and weaknesses as far as the protection phase went, and I can read all about it on PDB, to confirm my opinion. The more important things are the color, the structute, the expression, and the like...

I just checked the website...here is the description of the dog that ran out of the blind on me..of course it is followed by 20 pictures of the dog in training for schutzhund, looking like a great dog...

SG1 blank von blank CD RA OFA Excellent...

Blank is a daughter to our blank. Her sire blank was carefully chosen for his stability, kindly nature and high working ability to match blank perfectly. We wanted to create an "junior's dog" as blank is handled and trained entirely by my blank year old blank, blank. They have been active in AKC obedience and rally and are working hard on their SchH1. Blank is an expressive, substantial, harmoniously moving dog with a calm demeanor *but very strong natural protective tendencies*. Blank will be added to our program when she completes her necessary titles, certifications, and health clearances.

The dog is weak. really weak and fearful, that is where the *strong natural protective tendencies* come from, in my opinion, but I would bet $100.00 it gets bred, and I might bet it would never title, but you never know.

So it seems if the dog can eek out a SCH title, then it is ok to breed it with many people, which is better I guess than not attempting sch at all.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

and they will of course be described as excellent working dogs on the websites, on the phone, and in person...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Could be lots of reasons. Kennel blind, blind to their own dogs' limitations *OR *they know what they have and are satisfied with it. Hard to tell.
> Hopefully they are all having a good time.
> Good breeders will always breed good dogs! You just have to look harder to find them. ;-)


Ditto!!!!!!!!

=D>=D>=D>


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

personally i don't like the "labels" of SL and WL....stereotyping dogs is as bad as doing it to people imnsho

with that said, i'm sure there are plenty of "WL's" pushed into bitework that had no business being there and came out BAD as a result :-(
...working with one now :-(
when i hear how their SchH "club" was run and specifics of how the dog was "trained", it confirms there are definitely bad ones out there too

take what you got and bring out the best in it and you've done your job well as a dog owner/handler imo


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> personally i don't like the "labels" of SL and WL....stereotyping dogs is as bad as doing it to people imnsho
> 
> with that said, i'm sure there are plenty of "WL's" pushed into bitework that had no business being there and came out BAD as a result :-(
> ...working with one now :-(
> ...


I agree from an owner point of view, but a breeder?


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

rick smith said:


> personally i don't like the "labels" of SL and WL....stereotyping dogs is as bad as doing it to people imnsho
> 
> with that said, i'm sure there are plenty of "WL's" pushed into bitework that had no business being there and came out BAD as a result :-(
> ...working with one now :-(
> ...


Okay I tried copying quote, Rick! If not SL &WL then what? Of course not all working lines will work out, only about thirty percent I believes the estimation. I also agree about kennel blind, in all my years I never hear, "my dog is ugly & stupid". Even if they might be! I think what I did not mention is we had a top working dog, won seven protection tournaments in Europe and the TD was too tired to work him & like Joby's dog they would have thought he was too much. Again I wonder what do they really expect? Yet wen they heard about Cairo it's my dog could do that, yeah right. I appreciate the input it does show the different perspectives, interesting!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> personally i don't like the "labels" of SL and WL....stereotyping dogs is as bad as doing it to people imnsho
> 
> with that said, i'm sure there are plenty of "WL's" pushed into bitework that had no business being there and came out BAD as a result :-(
> ...working with one now :-(
> ...


Rik; Your statement that it's just a stereotype is making me a little crazy. 

First off, working line and show line applies solely to the blood lines, not a "stereotype" but a factual statement easily verified by simply looking at the pedigree. 

Second, working lines excel head and shoulders above show lines in sport/work arenas and show lines excel head and shoulders above working lines in show arenas. Not just a little bit, not just sometimes, but far and above this is what happens, in fact the exception is a working dog who can place high in a SS or a show line dog who can do well at a working event. Don't believe me? Please show me the last time a show dog won in a National or International trial and the last time a working line won in a SS. 

The lines are purposely bred to either work or show. Then there are those people who say they want a "golden middle" dog that can excel at both. What actually happens is 9 times out of 10 you end up with a dog who can't do well on either side of the fence. Also the working line folk don't see ANY reason under the sun to water down their dogs by adding show lines, there just is no benefit to working lines whatsoever. 

Of course there are working lines that are shitters, just as there are shitter show lines that wouldn't do well in a show. The difference is usually the shitter working line can still out work the shitter show line and the shitter show line can still place higher than the shitter working line dog is a SS.

People who want show line dogs should have them. People who want working line dogs should have them, but the two are NOT the same and the terms working lines/show lines are NOT stereotyping. 

It is what it is.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dont get me wrong, there were some SL dogs that I did like. And a couple of the show line breeders seemed real serious about the SCH, I even was there when a couple dogs got washed out and sold, and new dogs were imported, from breeders that had show line dogs.

The difference to me between the show and working type people and the ones that bridge the gap, is the mindset of what is actually important in the dogs character/temperament package, what carries the most weight, and how that importance compares to what they feel is important about other aspects of the dog, such as beauty and show career. 

I think to many it is a justification for breeding, once the dog gets a title it has finally made it, and it is now a complete dog...somehow. cause it got a title finally, all the stars were in alignment.

My first experiences with GSD were working line dogs that were close to Greif, owned by the guy I learned bitework from, he was a SCH training decoy, but also had military and real protection background. And then in police dog arena.

I started training dogs for protection, and that is when I started encountering more of the show line dogs. It really really sucks when you have to tell a person that the dog they paid 1500-2500 for as a pup, from show breeder lines of many champions, that their dog does not have correct temperament traits to actually protect their family, when that is why they purchased the dog, and are ready to put the time, effort, and money into training the dog for that purpose... This happened quite a few times, and every time I heard "but the dog is out of very good lines, many champions in there, and some schutzhund titles, and the breeder told me flat out that the dogs are protective and will make a good family protection dog."

I have seen people actually start crying, people that were victims of violent crimes, and bought the dogs for protection, and got hoodwinked.

I still dont know much at all about GSD bloodlines, I can say that it is pretty easy for one who is not very knowledgeable to get confused real real easily, when you see so many SCH titles on the pedigree. And every GSD breeder is gonna tell you that their dogs are great protection dogs, regardless of if they do any kind of protection work with their stock at all, and if they have a SCH title, it is proven.

I just saw an ad on the vets office wall for world class GSD litter a few weeks ago, great family protection dogs..$2500.00. it was local here, so I called them up, *I asked them if the dogs would be good prospect for sport work or protection, of course they said YES*

I then asked if I could work the dogs, they said absolutely not, I then asked if I could at least see a demonstration of their helper working the dogs, and was told that they do not train dogs in bite work, but that there were titled dogs in schutzhund in the pedigree, and the parents were champions here in the states..and were sg and v rated, and had CGC and one had a BH.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

my sch friend's group had teehirts made up to wear at the seiger shows, they said..

"we like our ugly bitches"

or something to that effect.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

WL & SL have become two separate breeds IMHO but there will always be some good SL and some bad WL. It's all about going with the odds when you want to do one or the other.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*The more things change, the more they are the same*

From 15 years ago:
http://www.angelplace.net/dog/ShowAndWork.htm


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

*Re: The more things change, the more they are the same*

I read that article before Jim & seriously appreciate it, scary to think nothing new under the Sun after 15 yrs. Still I look at the person owning SL or Amer. bred dogs and ask why? Is it because, if it looks like a duck & quacks like a duck it must be a duck even if it's in disguise? The issues with temperament, health, structure & on.... I'm continuously asked about my DSH/GSD, aren't they prone to hip problems? My dogs are very healthy, good hip/elbow lines; fortunately! It's still what do they not see & understand or maybe it's me...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: The more things change, the more they are the same*



Steve Estrada said:


> I read that article before Jim & seriously appreciate it, scary to think nothing new under the Sun after 15 yrs. Still I look at the person owning SL or Amer. bred dogs and ask why? Is it because, if it looks like a duck & quacks like a duck it must be a duck even if it's in disguise? The issues with temperament, health, structure & on.... I'm continuously asked about my DSH/GSD, aren't they prone to hip problems? My dogs are very healthy, good hip/elbow lines; fortunately! It's still what do they not see & understand or maybe it's me...


Here's the thing:

They like their dogs. They think our dogs are hideous.

We like our dogs. We think their dogs are hideous.

They aren't going to change.

We aren't going to change.

Let it go, trying to understand why they like what they like will only lead you to major head trauma from hitting your head against the stone wall...seriously!!


In the old days when people would ask me what my dog was mixed with I would actually stop and explain he wasn't. Now I just say "who knows?" smile and keep moving. You know why? Because I don't want working line dogs to become popular and watered down. Best to keep this secret. Let the pet people and the show people have RinTinTin or whoever they think they have, and leave our dogs alone.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: The more things change, the more they are the same*



susan tuck said:


> Here's the thing:
> 
> They like their dogs. They think our dogs are hideous.
> 
> ...



Couldn't have said it better! :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Steve said;
"scary to think nothing new under the Sun after 15 yrs"

Steve this started in the 60s-70s with the GSD and has gotten worse over the years. 
Pretty much what Susan said;
They aren't going to change and we aren't going to change!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Steve said;
> "scary to think nothing new under the Sun after 15 yrs"
> 
> Steve this started in the 60s-70s with the GSD and has gotten worse over the years.
> ...


 The show concept is evil and;

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men stand by and do nothing'

Edmund Burke, 1770.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i would hope there are many PSD's out there who go home w/ their handler and live in a family setting ... as a QUALITY "pet" 
- does that mean they are "pet quality" dogs ... not a chance 
- are they pets too ?... technically yes when they aren't out working 
....so when you hear the term "pet quality", do you think of a PSD ? 
hell no 
....another example of how i use the term stereotyping...does it really matter ? 

ANY conversation that throws around the SL and WL terms goes nowhere because both sides dig in, as this one has just done ... iow : pointless
...yes, Susan, to explain it as stereotyping is "incorrect"; just as it is "incorrect" to consider SL and WL GSD's a different breed no matter how "different" they have become
...does that matter either ??

i'll retract my label of stereotyping but still think it is one of the stoopidist topics to bring up on any forum and promise to STFU the next time it gets brought up 
...is it possible to put "SL" and "WL" on ignore ?? // rotflmao //


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i would hope there are many PSD's out there who go home w/ their handler and live in a family setting ... as a QUALITY "pet"
> - does that mean they are "pet quality" dogs ... not a chance
> - are they pets too ?... technically yes when they aren't out working
> ....so when you hear the term "pet quality", do you think of a PSD ?
> ...


Both sides have dug in? Really????? Where? I think you must have this thread mixed up with one from another board. I see only one person getting emotional here (that would be you).

As far as whether or not the working line dogs and show line dogs could ever be a seperate breed based solely on blood lines, it's happened before, so yeah, it actually could happen again. Ever hear about the English Cocker and the American Cocker? Now two totally seperate breeds (NOT varieties), and the only thing different are the lines, they were originally the SAME breed.

Not sure what your problem is, but when I refer to pet people I am talking about people who have dogs solely as pets. It's not a derogatory title, merely a statement of fact.

By the way, Rick, forgive me if I have you mixed up with someone else, but I don't think this is the first time you have gone out of your way to "critique" a thread, let us all know what threads you do or don't like, what threads you think are stupid and what threads you think aren't. This may come as a shock, but I don't give a shit, and I doubt anyone else does either.
:lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Both sides have dug in? Really????? Where? I think you must have this thread mixed up with one from another board. I see only one person getting emotional here (that would be you).
> 
> As far as whether or not the working line dogs and show line dogs could ever be a seperate breed based solely on blood lines, it's happened before, so yeah, it actually could happen again. Ever hear about the English Cocker and the American Cocker? Now two totally seperate breeds (NOT varieties), and the only thing different are the lines, they were originally the SAME breed.
> 
> ...


Rik: If that sounded harsh, I apologize. Maybe it's because I haven't finished my coffee this morning. I stand by what I said, just wish I had a nicer way of saying it.
:smile:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

You have the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Pit Bull Terrier. 2 separate breeds, coming from common foundation stock.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think if it was just a difference in sport or activity, I wouldn't care so much. If someone wants to do canine musical freestyle with their dog, hey, not my scene, but that's cool they are having fun with their dogs. To me as a vet, it's the obvious anatomic defects they specifically like and breed for which affects the quality of life of the show dogs and their pet derived lines that I seriously object to.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Rik: If that sounded harsh, I apologize. Maybe it's because I haven't finished my coffee this morning. I stand by what I said, just wish I had a nicer way of saying it.
> :smile:


And you're such a doll once you get your coffee, ha ha.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> And you're such a doll once you get your coffee, ha ha.


gee thanks Daryl.
:lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> You have the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Pit Bull Terrier. 2 separate breeds, coming from common foundation stock.




Smooth Fox terrier, Wire Fox terrier, JRT, Parson Russells terrier. All were one and the same "breed".
Norwich terrier, Norfolk terrier.
Carin terrier, West Highland White terrier.
Soft Coated Wheaten terrier, Kerry Blue terrier. 
Many more!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ya'all are talking 'bout specialisations :smile:,,,,,the gsd is supposed to be an 'all rounder' isn't he ?? Or did I get that wrong, 'cos that's prolly one of the main reasons I so love the breed. I do not get the breeding dogs to show thing,, I get the showing the dog which has accomplished something.

Breeding to show should be outlawed,,,, that'd show the fkrs .


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Ya'all are talking 'bout specialisations :smile:,,,,,the gsd is supposed to be an 'all rounder' isn't he ?? Or did I get that wrong, 'cos that's prolly one of the main reasons I so love the breed. I do not get the breeding dogs to show thing,, I get the showing the dog which has accomplished something.
> 
> Breeding to show should be outlawed,,,, that'd show the fkrs .


Depends who you ask. The breed is an all around breed and can be used for many things, doesn't necessarily mean every individual dog should be able to do all those same things. But who was talking about specialists? I think we were only talking about the difference between work and show lines, no?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Depends who you ask. The breed is an all around breed and can be used for many things, doesn't necessarily mean every individual dog should be able to do all those same things.


Individual dog ??? 

Susan there is no doubt, you like to argue for arguing sake. Whilst I'm at it, YOU are the only one I have seen get a little 'emotional' on this thread...BTW .


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Individual dog ???
> 
> Susan there is no doubt, you like to argue for arguing sake. Whilst I'm at it, YOU are the only one I have seen get a little 'emotional' on this thread...BTW .


you got me all wrong girlie! Have another for me though will ya!!! 
:lol::-\"


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> you got me all wrong girlie! Have another for me though will ya!!!
> :lol::-\"


Ok ! Tell ya what, I'll have two, that ok with yoo ?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Ok ! Tell ya what, I'll have two, that ok with yoo ?


I would say have 3, but won't on account I might be accused of being argumentative
\\/\\/\\/


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maggie I hate the fact that we have this pesky 8 hour time difference. Just when I get going you go to bed and vice versa. I'm saying good night and your day is probably just getting started!


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