# Lack of popularity of Dutch mals in Schutzhund..



## Jessy Bains (Oct 31, 2008)

Curious as to opinions on why there are so few Dutch knpv(unregistered HHx variety) line mals in Sch/IPO? Especially here in N.america. 

Is it the lack of registration?

Difficulity in obtaining the dogs from Holland?

Somehow less suitable(compared to their "pure" fci reg'd mali counterparts) for the sport based on certain traits and characteristics?

Or a combination of the above? Thoughts and opinions?


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Don't know about sport much, but the ones I have observed and worked with during training, seminars and annual accreditation are a bit much for most of the PSD handlers handling them. Handler aggressive, outing problems and so bite orientated do not track well. I attribute this to lack of knowledge of the breed when selecting one for PSD work.

> These are just the ones I have dealt with.

> Phil


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## Jessy Bains (Oct 31, 2008)

I would tend to agree Phil. The few that I've personally witnessed that were trained and titled in KNPV in Holland would probably be too much for the average handler. However to clarify i'm referring to the selection of untrained young dog and pups to be trained for participation in sch/ipo sport from bloodlines in Holland and those available here based out of the lines from over there and not crossing over KNPV titled/trained dogs to schutzhund. Thanks for the reply.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think it's a couple different reasons, but the lack of registration papers is a big one. If the dog is good, why limit yourself when it comes to competition options? You can compete at the club level with any dog, but for some of the larger national/international competitions you have to have FCI recognized papers. And even just to compete at the club level I've talked to handers who were completely insulted by the idea that their dog would be listed as a "mix" because it didn't have papers, and didn't want to trial a "mix".

In some circles KNPV dogs also have a reputation for being flyers/bangers on entry but not having good grips. Note I didn't say if this was true, I said it's a perception in some circles.

When people are looking for a pup to do a sport, they generally look at what is out there winning or doing well in that sport. Since most of the dogs at the top levels have FCI recognized papers, those are going to be the dogs/lines most buyers will gravitate towards when looking for a new pup.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think it's a couple different reasons, but the lack of registration papers is a big one. If the dog is good, why limit yourself when it comes to competition options? You can compete at the club level with any dog, but for some of the larger national/international competitions you have to have FCI recognized papers. And even just to compete at the club level I've talked to handers who were completely insulted by the idea that their dog would be listed as a "mix" because it didn't have papers, and didn't want to trial a "mix".
> 
> In some circles KNPV dogs also have a reputation for being flyers/bangers on entry but not having good grips. Note I didn't say if this was true, I said it's a perception in some circles.
> 
> When people are looking for a pup to do a sport, they generally look at what is out there winning or doing well in that sport. Since most of the dogs at the top levels have FCI recognized papers, those are going to be the dogs/lines most buyers will gravitate towards when looking for a new pup.


agreed. i believe the primary reason is registration.

as for the grips, i very much disagree with that. i think that is a much more accurate generalization of the FR dogs i've seen, much moreso than the dutch mals. i haven't seen a lot of PH1's with poor grips. most of them have very good grips.

as for the difficulty in tracking, again, i'm not sure how accurate that statement is for a pup. a finished PH1? that is a different story. those dogs don't have to track and have had so much manwork, that yes, teaching a PH1 tracking can be very difficult. much easier with a pup i would imagine...


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

My next pup will most likely be a Dutch Mal, and the whole registration thing had me concerned b/c I will be compete in sports w/ it.

I plan on competing in SDA, and asked Jack Rayl, the president about this. He sent me the following attachment:



> *Super News for Dutch & Other Un-Registered Malinois*​
> Hello, I’m Jack Rayl, current President and a founding member of Service Dogs of America, United Kennel Club’s affiliate organization for providing and conducting trials and events for the UKC Dog sport program. I have the pleasure of providing some fantastic news for people who own Dutch or Belgium malinois that lack a FCI recognized pedigree. The news that I’m referring too concerns two major developments that have occurred that will have a major impact on the future of working dogs here in the US and maybe the world.
> First, I want to inform all that are interested about the new Dutch Malinois Registration Program that is now available; starting January 1-2009 dogs known as Dutch malinois, Mecheles Herders or mixed malinois are now eligible to enter a new working dog registry called the Canine Developmental Health and Performance Registry. This new working dog registry was created by the United Kennel Club to provide a credible procedure for developing new breeds of dogs, improving the health and performance of existing breeds and to act as a registry that will provide an opportunity for dogs that are well established to become a fully recognized breed by the United Kennel Club. It will be the goal of the Dutch Malinois Registration Program to establish dogs that qualify as an official breed recognized by the United Kennel Club.
> *Other major benefits of the Dutch Malinois Registration Program include the following: *
> ...


He sent me an 8 page document explaining everything about it. Now this won't do much good for those who don't compete in SDA, but for those who do I think it's great.

If anyone would like to see the document in it's entirety, send me a PM and I will forward it to you.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Megan McCallister said:


> My next pup will most likely be a Dutch Mal, and the whole registration thing had me concerned b/c I will be compete in sports w/ it.
> 
> I plan on competing in SDA, and asked Jack Rayl, the president about this. He sent me the following attachment:
> 
> ...


i've never heard of SDA. what kind of sport is it similar to?


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

http://www.servicedogsofamerica.com/

I'm afraid I wouldn't explain it very well, as I'm still very knew and learning about it, but above is the link to their web page which has a plethora of info about it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just start a Mondio club. Much better than SDA, and since you are starting from the beginning, why not ???


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Since people were mentioning limitations for trialing in bitesports,
Can a mixed herder (x Mal) trial at the Mondio Worlds (without having "papers")?


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just start a Mondio club. Much better than SDA, and since you are starting from the beginning, why not ???


 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't SDA offer a little more of a variety than Mondio?

I'd really like to start a working dog club, that eventually offered a variety of sports to train/trial in.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Megan, we're looking for new clubs to promote APPDA. Check our web site out, I bet you will like this too.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I think there is a few issues. Firstly FCI papers are a big one. You cannot compete at the worlds without one, but I think that has only made people put more false pedigrees on good dogs. Not that I really have a problem with this. 
Secondly, some of these top KNPV Dutchies and Malis are very different dogs. They can be very bite/fight driven and can have not so much will to please. Add to that high tollerances and a little bit of handler aggression it doesnt take to much to work out they aint the best points dogs.
I have found the KNPV bloodlines that we have to have excellent natural grips. Its just not focused on in KNPV and as alot of handlers use compulsion in the outs they start to anticipate and fight the out. 
Another issue I have found is alot of them just wont bark easliy. They are so driven in the bitework they dont even think about it.
They are very good dogs but. I think that without a doubt the best gene pool for tough dogs is in the KNPV unregistered lines.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The rules vary here in the US on little things, but I think that you can participate at the worlds. However, what are the chances right off the bat ??? LOL

Mondio is something you should check out. I doubt if there is more variety in the SDA.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Jeff when you move to Mike's kennel, you can drive to Charleston and help me get a mondio club going, how's that sound? :-D


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Jerry APPDA looks great. But right now I don't have a dog that would be able to compete in it, I have a BH and a GSD that would probably only be able to do bite work while in prey drive. Also there are VERY few people in the area that would have a dog capable.

After I get something going, and I have a dog that can do the work, I'd love to try out APPDA.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Christopher,
You mentioned that you observed a tendency in KNPV DS's and Mals to not be big barkers because they are so driven to bite they don't think about it. Do you think there could other factors related to them not being big barkers? I'm wondering how much of this trait is simply the result of strong barking not being selected for. I know there is a guard in KNPV, but I am not familiar with the scoring, or if a silent guard tends to be scored as high as an active barking guard. Also, I assume that the Dutch police aren't proponents of a bark and hold, so there would not be a strong need for a dog with a strong bark for indication of the bad guy. In schutzhund, you see a lot of GSDs that have a nice, rhythmic bark, that is flashy, but IMO, it is usually a prey driven bark. I'm just wondering if some of the strengths of the KNPV DS's and Mals might be correlated with a relatively weaker bark, and what that says about what's going on in the dog's head during the bitework. 
I'd also be interested in hearing Gerben and Mike's thoughts on whether intense barking is not a prominent trait in KNPV lines and why that might be the case.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Christopher,
> You mentioned that you observed a tendency in KNPV DS's and Mals to not be big barkers because they are so driven to bite they don't think about it. Do you think there could other factors related to them not being big barkers? I'm wondering how much of this trait is simply the result of strong barking not being selected for. I know there is a guard in KNPV, but I am not familiar with the scoring, or if a silent guard tends to be scored as high as an active barking guard. Also, I assume that the Dutch police aren't proponents of a bark and hold, so there would not be a strong need for a dog with a strong bark for indication of the bad guy. In schutzhund, you see a lot of GSDs that have a nice, rhythmic bark, that is flashy, but IMO, it is usually a prey driven bark. I'm just wondering if some of the strengths of the KNPV DS's and Mals might be correlated with a relatively weaker bark, and what that says about what's going on in the dog's head during the bitework.
> I'd also be interested in hearing Gerben and Mike's thoughts on whether intense barking is not a prominent trait in KNPV lines and why that might be the case.


I dont believe they lose points in KNPV for not barking in the guarding work. They do have to find a box in the woods and bark at the box for a while. 
You will often hear the Dutch refer to a dog like "hes an easy barker". I guess they say this because alot of dogs arnt so good at barking. 
It can be alot of work trying to get them to bark and in the end you get a big dog giving a frustration yelp. Not exactly mind blowing bark and hold stuff. 
We have had heaps of GSD's and none of them really gave us a problem teaching the bark but our Dutchies have been a different kettle of fish.
Obviously not all KNPV dogs are gonna be a problem. 
Thats just my observations and maybe people like Gerben and Dick and Selena will have different observations.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Christopher,
> You mentioned that you observed a tendency in KNPV DS's and Mals to not be big barkers because they are so driven to bite they don't think about it. Do you think there could other factors related to them not being big barkers? I'm wondering how much of this trait is simply the result of strong barking not being selected for. I know there is a guard in KNPV, but I am not familiar with the scoring, or if a silent guard tends to be scored as high as an active barking guard. Also, I assume that the Dutch police aren't proponents of a bark and hold, so there would not be a strong need for a dog with a strong bark for indication of the bad guy. In schutzhund, you see a lot of GSDs that have a nice, rhythmic bark, that is flashy, but IMO, it is usually a prey driven bark. I'm just wondering if some of the strengths of the KNPV DS's and Mals might be correlated with a relatively weaker bark, and what that says about what's going on in the dog's head during the bitework.
> I'd also be interested in hearing Gerben and Mike's thoughts on whether intense barking is not a prominent trait in KNPV lines and why that might be the case.


Chris's Dutchie is an Arko son, that is why he is not an easy barker. Some Dutchies like Rudie from Hans Pegge are VERY easy barkers, and Rudie produces great barkers as well. Arko puppies need to be taught to bark very early on as babies and then it is OK, then they will bark fine. Of course it also depends on the lines of the female. barking is also important in the KNPV and of course everyone wants an easy barker in the work. I use females from Rudie and Duco Seegers bloodlines to Arko lines because they bark like idiots and still have all the working traits that I like, Arko brings all the aggression that Rudie lines may lack, so it makes a very good balanced dog and usually the barking is there then.
If you use a Tommy line female for example to Arko then you will have much more difficult barkers, and also much more serious angry types of dogs as well.
The best and easiest barker I have seen is a KNPV female that I have named Miley (Kwinto Pekel daughter/ Duco grandaughter) She can bark with the best SchH GSDs. She will be bred to Arko this spring.
Those pups will be easier barkers.
I teach all of our pups to bark from 5 weeks on and then we have no problems.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Christopher, 
I forgot all about the object guard. Thanks Mike. It is always good to get accurate information.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

As already been said, without FCI-pedigree not being allowed to compete, so probably the number one reason. Not so many that breeds FCI-registred DS either I assume, buy it seems you can find more good FCI dutchies nowadays, aslo some from KNPV-lines but registerd within FCI. Found a video from havrevingens Ique doing IPO below, succesfull IPO-dog, not the easiest to train but seems to have no problem with barking

https://secure.storegate.se/user/share.aspx?id=40bdc664-5257-45fd-8df7-6cc72fc9611d


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## Ann Putegnat (Mar 11, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> Since people were mentioning limitations for trialing in bitesports,
> Can a mixed herder (x Mal) trial at the Mondio Worlds (without having "papers")?


No. Must have FCI authorized pedigree.
Ann


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Ann Putegnat said:


> No. Must have FCI authorized pedigree.
> Ann


Thanks Ann. That's what I thought, or actually I think you might have answered that for me a while back when I asked USMRA. So, thanks again.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Chris's Dutchie is an Arko son, that is why he is not an easy barker. Some Dutchies like Rudie from Hans Pegge are VERY easy barkers, and Rudie produces great barkers as well. Arko puppies need to be taught to bark very early on as babies and then it is OK, then they will bark fine. Of course it also depends on the lines of the female. barking is also important in the KNPV and of course everyone wants an easy barker in the work. I use females from Rudie and Duco Seegers bloodlines to Arko lines because they bark like idiots and still have all the working traits that I like, Arko brings all the aggression that Rudie lines may lack, so it makes a very good balanced dog and usually the barking is there then.
> If you use a Tommy line female for example to Arko then you will have much more difficult barkers, and also much more serious angry types of dogs as well.
> The best and easiest barker I have seen is a KNPV female that I have named Miley (Kwinto Pekel daughter/ Duco grandaughter) She can bark with the best SchH GSDs. She will be bred to Arko this spring.
> Those pups will be easier barkers.
> I teach all of our pups to bark from 5 weeks on and then we have no problems.


We've difficult barkers, they guard the object with such intensity (fixate it) they forget to bark. It is a trait we have to watch in our breeding,by picking the right mates, cause it otherwie might be imposssible to learn a dog a proper bark at the revier excercies.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

the lack of barking is a Dutchie thing or just something with certain dutch lines?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

SDA is something like PSA. When you leave the sport of Schutzhund, none of the other dog sports that I am aware of allow the titles to follow the dog on the pedigree. And the great AKC will not attach them either, my reason to not support them, the AKC!

I have seen several Dutch Mals and am looking into one for this summer. Registration can be an issue as the Dutch cross Mals and Shepherds for hard, over the edge KNPV stuff. You had better know your K-9 broker! The Mals I have seen over 10 years were anything from your good all purpose animals to "hyper" gators with hair. 

Handler issues I think can be found from anybodys stuff, less so in showlines. For me, if you have to deal with handler issues 24/7, it isn't worth owning. Remember, the K-9/handler thing is a TEAM!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Originally Posted by Chad Byerly 
Since people were mentioning limitations for trialing in bitesports,
Can a mixed herder (x Mal) trial at the Mondio Worlds (without having "papers")?
No. Must have FCI authorized pedigree.
Ann

If you are competing for GTIM worlds, then you do not need FCI papers to compete.

One is the "Cup" and one is the "worlds". Both are the same day this year.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> the lack of barking is a Dutchie thing or just something with certain dutch lines?


Just certian Dutch lines. SOme of the Dutchies bark like idiots, some lines are more difficult barkers. I do my best to breed lines that are difficult barkers to lines that are very easy barkers.
I know that my Arko is not an easy barker, and he comes from lines of difficult barkers but he has so much to offer to the breed I still think he is one of the best studs to consider, so I try to find females with all the traits that I look for in terms of drive, health, and nerves......but I also need them to be easy barkers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah, I am confused about the whole thing as well. The US started as GTIM, and then somehow it is now FCI.

GTIM and FCI went to court and something happened, not sure what, but the end result is that there is GTIM and FCI.

You should, as well as anyone else that can, come out and see the nationals. It is going to be indoors at the Rose palace..........some horse arena. Should be real nice regardless if the weather is.

Anyway, GTIM doesn't care if the dog has papers, but it has to be tatooed. My french is pretty lame, and the translators make me crazy. LOL

I try to keep up with all that happens, obviously I am a few laps behind.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Thanks Jeff.


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