# Bad Tempermants...Opinions



## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

OK, 

This post is VERY hard for me to even think about writing, It's been on my mind for 2 months now. 

As everyone knows Red has tempermant issues, IMHO they are somewhat fear based and somewhat other(I have no clue). There is no pattern, no rhyme or reason nothing that stays the same to trigger a response. BUT It's getting worse....a little better now...but still worse. 

She was NOT always like this, before she turned 2, she was my happy go lucky good girl I could take anywhere. As she has gotten older she has changed a LOT. Some of it, I believe stemmed from issues with me as a handler. Most of it I feel is genetics for her. 

The Schutzhund trainers have seen her and worked her and thought she was OK. She goes into "fight" mode though when pushed and thus we officially retired from Schutzhund this past summer. 

I'll give you guys a run down and some history here. 

Red was gotten from a BYB, he did some health testing but not enough and his dogs were NOT breeding quality. I got her for free from him, originally she was my ex's BUT when we split I kept her. She is VERY bonded to my grandma and my grandma to her. BUT she is my heart and soul dog......she has taught me more than I'll ever learn....more than I'll ever get from another dog. She was great until aound 2 years old. She has never liked kids but she tolerated them and was great with a select few. We started training in Schutzhund when she was 18 months old and the trainers loved her. She would go out on the field and work then come off and play with a friend's little girl. We participated in a Schutzhund trial and got her BH. 

We moved when she was about 2 years old. We moved out of my parent's house and into the big world by ourselves with Hobie(my old dog). I worked, went to school and spent all extra time with the dogs. She was great...much more protective and watchful but still my happy go lucky dog. Love everyone she was introduced too. She changed MANY minds about Pit Bulls in this time of her life. They were astonished at her size and friendliness......she's a little dog, 40 lbs. We met Ketra and her dogs at this point and she started to like Gypsy. We went a LOT of places and had a blast. 

Before I moved home....I had an employer scream and yell at me at the groom shop that I worked at. Libby, her dog Gypsy and Red were all there. Libby left the room and tried to get Red to go with her......she did and then came back to me. The day after that, I went to work for an acquintance at another groom shop since I was in town for another week anyway. Red growled at a guy with a baseball hat on....something she'd never done before. I attributed it to the incident the day before. We moved home and she was fine BUT she would growl at people in the pet store that wore hats and looked thugish. I had her evaluated by my Schutzhund trainers and she passed again with flying colors. They said that she was fine and to just watch her. 

Libby and I went to Seattle for a bully BBQ. We took Red and gypsy on the public transportation system. They did great, we sat in back as it was more roomy and out of the way. We stopped at a stop and a few african-american guys got on and ran down the aisle towards us.....Red stood, growled and snarled at them, they were wearing black clothes and baseball hats for the most part. She would not completely calm down immediately, she finally did and was OK. We then went walking in downtown Seattle where she did great and stayed relaxed. Then we were standing waiting for an elevator, it came and opened and had reflective sides and she barked at a lady in the elevator. This was VERY very unlike her. We went elsewhere and she was wonderful. I got back and had the Schutzhund trainers evaluate her again, they said that she was just being a dog, protective and to keep watching her which I did. She got better and we started Competitive OB classes, she had no problems there and did wonderfully in the class. Quite a bit of time passed and she was doing good. Then we were out with my best friend and her kids, Red barked, growled and tried to jump on him. She got corrected and went back to being her normal self. 

I moved in with Libby and Red did great and continued to do great. Until this last summer. She has resumed barking at people randomly. They can be wearing a cowboy hat, baseball hat, clean clothes, preppy, thug it doesn't matter. Red had an indcident with Libby's neice about 2 months ago. There was no teeth marks and no teeth hit skin. She bumped her neice with her head and scared her. Red was hyped up because she was being played with at the time but there was no excuse. Fast forward to last month....Libby and I went downtown and Red didn't bark but she STARED people down and low-growled at some people. She was silent....it honestly worried me and I moved away from the area. We went and walked more and then went into a tire store to check out rims. The sales guy came up and shook my hand, Red instantly stiffened and watched the exchange, I truly believe that she would have bitten him had he fell or tried to do something, moved the wrong way. She never barked or growled just watched and watched. Then Libby and I went on a walk in Zuni and on our way back, Red went after a bicyclist....she was ON leash but she still tried, she has been around tons and tons of bikes and never acted that way. It was random and completely out of the blue. 

Also, She is VERY protective of the truck, house, car and yard. She would bite someone that tried to steal the car, break in the house or came in the yard. That honestly was OK with me BUT it has gotten to the point where it's not good. She is too vocal and too showy with aggression for my liking anymore. 

Mind you, I quit taking her to iffy places and only to places where she can be controlled and feels comfortable. Unfortunately, those places are becoming VERY few now. She is so picky that MOST of the time she is OK BUT now it has gotten to the point where I'm not comfortable taking her out in public. Although she LOVES to go everywhere. She is NOT a dog that is happy sitting at home, she normally genuinely loves people. I have lightened up on her and she has been better...but I think the part about her not being allowed to be herself ties into the whole picture of she can NOT be herself because of her tempermant. I have pushed her to see where her break is and I can NOT get a definete answer as she is so choosy. 

I'm taking her to see a behavorist when I decide where and find a good one BUT in my heart, I know what I have to do. I wish that I could "fix" her and make her go back to being the happy go lucky dog that she is 95% of the time. There is ONLY A 5% TIME FRAME THAT SHE IS DIFFERENT. Most of the time she is GREAT! Ketra knows her and can vouch on her behavior and maybe give some outsider looking in information. 

The liability that I have by having her is HUGE. No matter how vigilant and careful I am there is always a chance.....that freak accident and I honestly don't know that I can afford that liability. It is HUGE and with her tempermant getting more and more unstable........I don't know what to do. Honestly, I'm crying writing this as she has been the BEST dog in the world and as I said before there is only a 5% time frame that she is different in. I NEVER thought that I'd ever have to write something like this about my little dog. EVER! I'm at a loss and have been battling it for a few months now. I will NOT make the final decision until after winter as I want to give my grandma and parents a chance to see her before I do something. She is currently not going anywhere where there are other people, she goes running and for rides in the car but she doesn't get to go on walks downtown or anything like that. 

I'm giving it my all and will do everything I can but ultimately it's coming down to the same question.........Can I afford the Liability of it all??? The simple answer is NO but the complicated answer is YES. 

This was NOT an EASY post for me. BUT it was something that I needed input and advice, words on. 

She is an American Staffordshire Terrier/ Pit Bull. I quit taking her out in public at all and she is much more comfortable and less stressed. She is getting evaluated by a behavioist in June when I go home to WA for a visit...I want it done where she is completely comfortable and not stressed out and I'd rather her be put to sleep where she is completely comfortable and not stressed. 

Courtney


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sorry, from what you have said, I would have the dog put down. I am not basing this solely on what you have said about the dog, but everything you have said.

Random aggression is going to **** up your life eventually. This is one of the reasons I am not really a big fan of using these dogs for pp work, besides the fact that they usually suck.

IF you want to go another way, get in contact with Chris Fraize, he is the only guy I know that is doing really well with pits and ask his advice. I am sure there are others, but I have seen his work and it is really good stuff.

Please remember I am not "out to get you" It is my honest opinion.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I do NOT think that you are out to get me. lol Far from it. 

She was never PP trained just Schutzhund. I have asked a TON of people with expierience with APBTs and some say PTS others say that it sounds fear based and manageable. It is manageable but it boils down for me to IF something happens can I afford it? The answer is no. 

I know what needs to be done but can't bring myself to fully commit to it. I believe that I'm gonna have it done when we go home in June but I'm back and forth about it. 

Courtney


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is not easy, no doubt about it. Be really careful with the dog until you do decide whats up.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is not easy, no doubt about it. Be really careful with the dog until you do decide whats up.


Yeah...she hasn't been going public places or anything like that. She's pretty much on house arrest. 

I know what is best but It's a freaking hard decision and I won't do it until I go home in june as I want her vet to do it as she is comfortable with him. 

Courtney


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sorry if I was hard you on the other thread. We're both going tough times with a dog right now.  

I'd get her a thorough exam with a full blood panel (CBC and chemistry panel) before you absolutely do anything, just as I'm doing with Zoso. It could just be bad nerves, as for what I understand of the APBT temperament, unwarranted people aggression is not at all correct, but just make sure you rule out something medical first as that's what's fair to the dog. You just never know if a dog is in pain and they just don't know how to tell us, so they act out.  Also, is she spayed?


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

She is spayed and has been since she was 18 months old. She had a blood panel when she turned 2. 

I lead more towards fear aggression that has to do with genetics and handler errors on a soft dog when she was younger. SO, I'm having her evaluated during the trip to WA in June and will cement my decision then. 

Courtney


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... but just make sure you rule out something medical first as that's what's fair to the dog.


not only fair to the dog, but peace of mind for you also. if you have to have Red PTS, at least you'll know you're doing it for the right reasons. best wishes for you...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Courtney,

From your description, I think there is some hope. I would first go crazy with training attention and focus. Repeat is LITERALLY hundred's of times every day. Make it the most highly rewarded thing she can do. Make it awesome food. Withhold everything unless she is focused.

Next, add in people, dogs, situations as distractions. Ask for focus.

Have her wearing a nylon choke collar. You'll need a snap-on one to fit over her bully head and still fit around her little bully neck. (PM me, I have some available).

If she starts any preliminary signs of stifness, caution, aggression or fear, correct her. For it to be effective, she must believe that she will die if she will not live within your rules. This is serious business. Your alternatives are 1) waiting until something happens and then have her put down or 2) have her put down.

The instant she complies, mark it and move on. Continue to reward the good. I've seen dogs turn around in as little as hours with permanent results over 2 weeks. It CAN happen. I can't say if you and your dog can make it happen.

Good luck.

My APBT would thoroughly enjoy getting into a spat. But thorough focus training will prevent it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKczpiYauYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhAHhQ2g6Rs&feature=channel 

Keep in mind this is about 10 hours a week of training in distraction (like the dog park) over 16 months. A big committment, but well worth it.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

It's nice that it sounds like you are able to keep her safe and happy, even though you can't take her everywhere you'd like to and did take her with you in the past. My dog has alot of triggers (strangers, trucks, skateboards, fireworks, screaming...) and is simply not safe sometimes, and he's been better since I limited his exposure, after moving just out of the city. But I still control who he meets and how (in the yard, and the person throws a toy for him for a while..). Also, it's good for your girl to be away from her triggers and not being stressed (lowered cortisol levels, etc.). 

Even before meeting with a behaviorist/trainer who specializes in treating aggression and/or fear issues (BTW there are many in WA, Kathy Sdao in Tacoma would be at the top of my list), there are counter conditioning and desensitization protocols you could try. 

Mealtimes you could spend carefully exposing her to one of her triggers (at a low enough level, and increase with success). At an appropriate distance, when the trigger appears BAR OPEN until the trigger disappears BAR CLOSED. Let there be a bit of time between each session (I think at least 30 seconds) and then the low-enough level presentation of the trigger will start predicting food, and the dog will start having the conditioned emotional response you are trying to create (assuming you're not over threshold and they are calm enough to eat, and want their food). My dog loves the can version of his kibble (Innova adult), and he often prefers it over many treats. I've really liked using it because then the dog isn't just filled up on crap that'll give him loose stool. Kathy Sdao has a great DVD called CUJO MEETS PAVLOV, which I recommend.

I feel for your situation, and your tough decisions.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

She is DA and we used the method that you described and it worked VERY well. BUT.....it did nothing for the random people aggression. The more corrections she gets the more she goes off when she targets someone. So, when she gets fixed on someone she goes off and NO amount of correction is going to snap her out of it. The corrections make her more aggressive and worse as she keeps going but then displays fear towards me due to the correction. 

So, I don't think that she is a candidate for this type of training. 

Courtney


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> She is DA and we used the method that you described and it worked VERY well. BUT.....it did nothing for the random people aggression. The more corrections she gets the more she goes off when she targets someone. So, when she gets fixed on someone she goes off and NO amount of correction is going to snap her out of it. The corrections make her more aggressive and worse as she keeps going but then displays fear towards me due to the correction.
> 
> So, I don't think that she is a candidate for this type of training.
> 
> Courtney


I wouldn't start a fight with this dog, don't rule it with an iron fist. The upkeep involved sounds harder than where you are at now. You are describing an extremely aroused animal. Until those chemicals lower, the animal's decision making is impaired (fight or flight). Since learning doesn't happen anyway when that high over threshold, you just have to get your dog away from the stimulus. Chalk it up to a big OOOPS, and move on. That's managing your dog in the real world. For training and behavior mod, I'd say control the environment and set your dog up for successes.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

I hope I made clear, though, that recommending this (or any) treatment is in no way meant to imply that euthanasia is not the right thing for this dog. You love the dog and have only the best wishes for her, we know. Sometimes it's just the best thing, and all the advice in the world won't change that. Hopefully your behaviorist appointment (and whatever medical workups can be done) will help give you the information you need to make your choices.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Courtney, it's all in the timing. You could have caused a lot of it with poor timing.

With Emma, one time she was not totally clear (to her) why the correction came. And after that, she was more "iffy" until I was able to be very clear that the correction was from me and for a lack of focus.

Another thing to be aware of is the statement, "no amount of correction is going to snap her out of it." Simply unture. What I think you mean is that you are unable or unwilling to give a correction that will stop the behavior. Many corrections with amp up and reinforce aggressive behavior. That is one of the reasons why a choking correction is kindest. It ends aggression quickly. A dog can't growl or bark if it cannot breathe and it cannot lunge when its front feet are off the ground. In a worst case scenario, a dog cannot be aggressive when it is unconscious. If you as a handler are not prepared for this, it is going to go badly.


You'll need to operant conditioning, plus classical conditioning, plus some good old-fashioned compulsion and massed practice (flooding) to get through this. Many owners aren't willing or able to do it, so kudos to you if you try.

What Chad describes (which I also recommend) can be dangerous too with bad timing. Pulling the dog out of the situation reinforces the behavior. Dog thinks: "I growl and the other dog goes away. Growling makes me safe. When I and afraid, I will growl." If the handler screws it up, the dog gets a correction. You can't say, oops, sorry, do-over. It doesn't work that way - you've undone all of your training.

I've turned around some messed up dogs in two weeks. (80 hours of training). I know it can be done. It's your choice whether it is worth it or not.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I know nothing about pit bulls but it seems that what triggers this is the dog watching someone yelling at you and upsetting you. Up until that point , all was fine. I wonder how often she senses you responding to environmental situations and thinking she needs to defend the pack. I guess he can't shake the negative experience and now has all these situational triggers. I'd have to really look within myself and ask how often when I'm out in public am I uncomfortable with a person or environmental surroundings. Every GSD I have ever owned KNEW when I didn't like someone and would circle front if I didn't down them. 

I don't know that I would use corrections. The attention and obedience training and controlling the environment comes to mind. One thing we have taught dogs is to down with their head on the floor. It seems to impress upon the dog that you are in control of the situation. Ultimately, I might make the decision that she had to be under house arrest. I always come down on the side of if the dog is correct with his human pack at home, then I don't have a problem saying this is not a public dog. Bruno is the only dog I ever put down for temperament. He was a mixed breed puppy that sappy me got from someone giving them away at the Soulard Market. We now call it rage syndrome. By the time he was 6 months old he would go into these modes of growling and snarling at me showing all his teeth. No rhyme or reason. Correction made it worse and it continued to escalate. I cried buckets but eventually I had him put down. It took me a couple of months to do it. It was the fact that it was escalating and directed at me that I couldn't get past. 

I don't know if anyone can really evaluate him for you unless you go out in public and they can watch. The dog either has some sort of syndrome or really overly reacts to your apprehension in certain situations or what she reads as your apprenhension and relates it back to the grooming shop and is generalizing it. This is really tough, any of mine would have just nailed the guy and called it day. 

Terrasita


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

You are right.....she is a softer dog and I as her handler and owner am NOT going to use that much force with her as I've tried it in the past and it does nothing....even using a choke chain. I will not choke a dog out for a behavior. Especially this dog.....you give too harsh a correction and she shuts down. 

When she first started showing these signs...I used compulsion and the method that you described and I can tell you it made it worse. 

I know what to do....BUT until I can commit to it....she's safe. 

Courtney


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I know nothing about pit bulls but it seems that what triggers this is the dog watching someone yelling at you and upsetting you. Up until that point , all was fine. I wonder how often she senses you responding to environmental situations and thinking she needs to defend the pack. I guess he can't shake the negative experience and now has all these situational triggers. I'd have to really look within myself and ask how often when I'm out in public am I uncomfortable with a person or environmental surroundings. Every GSD I have ever owned KNEW when I didn't like someone and would circle front if I didn't down them.
> 
> I don't know that I would use corrections. The attention and obedience training and controlling the environment comes to mind. One thing we have taught dogs is to down with their head on the floor. It seems to impress upon the dog that you are in control of the situation. Ultimately, I might make the decision that she had to be under house arrest. I always come down on the side of if the dog is correct with his human pack at home, then I don't have a problem saying this is not a public dog. Bruno is the only dog I ever put down for temperament. He was a mixed breed puppy that sappy me got from someone giving them away at the Soulard Market. We now call it rage syndrome. By the time he was 6 months old he would go into these modes of growling and snarling at me showing all his teeth. No rhyme or reason. Correction made it worse and it continued to escalate. I cried buckets but eventually I had him put down. It took me a couple of months to do it. It was the fact that it was escalating and directed at me that I couldn't get past.
> 
> ...


She didn't nail him because of all the OB work we had done and she knew at that point that biting someone was NOT OK. However, I've a few more options to try before I decide.....It just makes me doubt that I can afford the liability of having a civil dog. 

She likes some people that she meets and is properly introduced too. She likes some random strangers but her triggers are really unclear now and I do worry when we go out. 

She has been on house arrest, not going anywhere but out in the boonies to run. 

Courtney


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> ... I've turned around some messed up dogs in two weeks. (80 hours of training). _I know it can be done. _


It can be done by some handlers.

I've learned not to judge handlers who cannot. It's not a character defect or a lack of dedication, it's probably far more common than the ability to do this kind of work, and I would suggest that Jeff's opinion might be the best one on the thread. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sorry, from what you have said, I would have the dog put down. I am not basing this solely on what you have said about the dog, but everything you have said. ....


And I would urge that you give yourself the peace of mind that you will gain from a medical eval, as Maren suggests, first. I would also strongly advise that you not second-guess your decision or have guilt over it.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Red has temperament issues is a crock! IMO. It is the same BS remark that the herders say about white dogs not being able to work sheep or the only real working dog is the German Shepherd. RIGHT! Boil it down to genetics and then come back and talk!!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Red has temperament issues is a crock! IMO. It is the same BS remark that the herders say about white dogs not being able to work sheep or the only real working dog is the German Shepherd. RIGHT! Boil it down to genetics and then come back and talk!!!



??

I thought Red was the dog's name.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Anne Vaini
> ... I've turned around some messed up dogs in two weeks. (80 hours of training). I know it can be done.
> 
> ...


Not to judge someone who cannot! I may have done it before, but I was either staying at home or working part time and bringing the dog(s) to work. I couldn't do that now.  Just believe that there is roughly a 75% chance of success with dedication and solid, balanced training.

And remembering that even with dedication, training, nutritional supprt, exercise, supplements, everything available to us now, 25% of dogs (IME) can't be saved.

Either way it totally sucks. 

I think there is more than meets the eye in this situation and have PMed the OP.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Somehow I don't think its an issue of civil. There is the required counterpart of judgment. Any of the protection breeds have a civil component which should be balanced with judgement. There's always liability with a dog. That's why you socialize and train and select. Its hard to know whether she's reading you and responding in this fashion or if she's had a temperament melt down. My most civil dogs were reliable in public and with children. If they reacted it was because someone WAS acting inappropriately. What I noticed the GSDs doing was knowing when I didn't like someone. It wasn't an issue of me being worried about my safety or even feeling uncomfortable. I've always relied on the obedience training though to say, I don't need you, I have the situation under control. 

Maybe a behaviorist can help isolate the why. I kept thinking I could fix Bruno and he just got worse. I also think Jeff's idea regarding talking to a pit bull person is probably best. Someone in the breed will know what the propensities are.

I do think whatever decision you make its the right one for you. 

Terrasita


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well blow me over!!! 
I agree. If someone is not willing or able to correct a dog so that it will submit to him then there is often no solution other than to put it to sleep or find an owner that is (difficult).

It's kinder in the long run. A dog needs a GOD to tell him what to do. Without this, (funnily enough tor the fluffy owners) it is definitely not happy and can develop problems if it is not guided by a strong hand.

Now, with all of my 5" nothing I am stomping out of here but my dogs are follwoing....


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

She is a very sensitive dog, handler sensitive especially. She definetely submits to me. I think that I was Too HARD on her as a young dog, that is definetely part of the problem. I had a very firm strong hand as I've always had hard dogs.....she is a soft dog and essentially I learned that a soft dog requires a soft touch otherwise you end up creating a dog like her. I'm not saying that I had nothing to do with her tempermant problems. I did and know this. I do feel that the stronger hand I have the more she deleves into nerviness. 

I'll do everything I can for her and in the end what is best for her and me. 

Courtney


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I've made the decision to put her to sleep in June when we go hoem to my parents house. She is more comfortable there and her vet will come to the house. 

It wasn't that I didn't want to fix her but ultimately I cannot trust her and thus feel that I can't manage her. The liability is too much as well for me to try and bear. Sometimes that hardest decisions aren't the easiest. I appreciate all the advice and words. 

Courtney


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ooffa just read this, sorry


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## Sharon Adams (Nov 6, 2007)

Courtney maybe I have over looked it, but how old is Red now?


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

She is 4 years old. 

Courtney


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