# Weight Loss Plan?



## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Since we got our new dog (about a month ago now) our cocker spaniel has distinctly put on the pounds. (I suspect someone in the family has been over-treating her to ''make up" for the new addition.)

Obviously, this is not ideal, and since this forum has many people who are helpful and educated, I'm hoping for some feedback on the best way to go about slimming her down. (One local vet very helpfully suggested Science Diet- having read the ingredients, I will not be feeding that to my dogs.)

One element, exercise, seems to be mainly handling itself- our newer dog is larger and so moves at a faster clip on walks, so she's getting more of a workout there already. When time permits we're going to try to get her out for some fetch games, too, but that can't be as regular an activity as I'd like right now.

The second element, food, I'm approaching in the following way:

Calculate caloric requirements of 'goal' weight.
Calculate caloric value of 'treats' (she gets a couple dried chicken breast treats at bedtime as part of her routine)
Fill out remaining caloric needs w/ good quality kibble (currently Barking at the Moon) & small amount of lean meat.

Should that approach work, or is there something else I need to be doing?


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I recently spoke with a vet about a dog losing weight, what is a reasonable amount to lose and how to go about doing it...

The vet said 1 to 2 lbs per week drop in weight is healthy and to do so, switch to a lower fat content food and gradually increase exercise. I believe raw would take care of any weight issues (have never seen overweight raw fed dog) but perhaps that isn't an option for you? 

With your plan, I would cut out any excess treats. The treats she does get come out of her regularly scheduled diet. 

Good for you catching on to the weight gain! I know you are suspecting increased treats. As you likely know, there can also be health issues involving sudden weight gain, so a check up and a talk with your vet would of course be a good idea too.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kris Dow said:


> The second element, food, I'm approaching in the following way:
> 
> Calculate caloric requirements of 'goal' weight.
> Calculate caloric value of 'treats' (she gets a couple dried chicken breast treats at bedtime as part of her routine)
> ...


Does the food bag give correct instructions for the dog's previous weight? (That is, did what the bag say to feed maintain the proper weight before?)

If so, then you can use the bag's instructions for the correct weight (not the present weight). 

The dog is heavier now. If you feed for maintaining the correct weight and not the heavier weight, the dogs has to lose weight.

You can also "fluff up" the bowl with canned no-salt green beans (and most dogs love them, for some reason) or the sorta-cooked frozen version (better nutrition, but some dogs don't love them).


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Yes, what Connie said! 

I have a fat cat, and when I decided to switch her to a healthier canned food, for her current weight, it instructed me to feed her 3 cans a day! But I said no way, she's eating the amount for what she should weigh, one can a day, and sure enough, she started dropping. 

Maybe if your Cocker Spaniel loves to chase cats, I could send this kitty over to you and they could work on losing pounds together!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Is the dog on two meals?

That can help keep up the metabolic rate, which you want. (Exercise does is very well, of course, but no "fasting" chunks of time also help the metabolism not to go into "conserve" mode.)


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> I recently spoke with a vet about a dog losing weight, what is a reasonable amount to lose and how to go about doing it...
> 
> The vet said 1 to 2 lbs per week drop in weight is healthy and to do so, switch to a lower fat content food and gradually increase exercise. I believe raw would take care of any weight issues (have never seen overweight raw fed dog) but perhaps that isn't an option for you?
> 
> ...


I tried introducing raw in both RMB (chicken parts) form and a trial package of a commercial variety, and she was not at ALL interested. I recently got a book which has some recipes for raw mixtures in it (Dr. Pitcairn's book) which I may try out to see if she's happier if it looks more like 'real' food. (Rather than processed mush, which is what the commercial stuff looked like.)

As far as treats go, I was going to restrict her to ONLY the ones at bedtime and include them in figuring out how much kibble she gets (so she gets a little less than it says she should on the bag, to make up for the added calories in the treats.)

I'm also ordering a bunch of samples of other good quality dog foods with lower fat content, so may alternate BatM some of the time, or cut it with something else to make her feel like she's getting more than she is. (She does also like some fresh fruit and vegetables, so that's another option for bulking out her portion.)

She has recently had a general check up- is it worth specifically asking for blood work? Or should we just see how she goes and if she's still not losing weight, then take her in for more tests? (I confess part of this is financial- our newer dog arrived with a badly broken canine, and REALLY awful teeth, so as soon as I find a vet in the area I actually feel comfortable with, we're going to have to plunk down some money to get him sorted out. Luckily his teeth don't seem to be bothering him, but I don't want to wait until it's an emergency.)


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is the dog on two meals?
> 
> That can help keep up the metabolic rate, which you want. (Exercise does is very well, of course, but no "fasting" chunks of time also help the metabolism not to go into "conserve" mode.)


Not at the moment- She never seems terribly interested in food in the morning. (Our other dog was used to two meals a day from the shelter, so we've just kept him on that, so I've offered her food in the morning as well as the evening, but she seems to think meals ONLY happen at night.)

If I cut back at night and am persistent about it, is she likely to switch, or do some dogs just have different preferences and do better on different feeding schedules?


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> Yes, what Connie said!
> 
> I have a fat cat, and when I decided to switch her to a healthier canned food, for her current weight, it instructed me to feed her 3 cans a day! But I said no way, she's eating the amount for what she should weigh, one can a day, and sure enough, she started dropping.
> 
> Maybe if your Cocker Spaniel loves to chase cats, I could send this kitty over to you and they could work on losing pounds together!


Oh, jeez, the suggested feeding instructions I've seen on some foods are mind boggling. One canned food I was looking at to see the ingredients suggested something like six large cans for a large dog which is, okay, big dog, but at the price I'd rather just go buy my dog some meat and vegetables myself!

If we can make your cat look like a tennis ball, we might be in business.  (There's a thought- I wonder if any of the local courts need a ball dog...  )

Actually, I have my eye on a nice grassy hill nearby- I'm thinking I can stand at the bottom and throw the ball up so she has to run up and down with it.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

we had a 48lbs pug. Yes... 48lbs!!! 

Anyway we took the weight off by feeding him chicken broth with a few kernels of kibble floating on top. He really dropped the weight when my female went into heat. Since he's neutered he didn't have to be separated and he constantly moving after her for weeks!

The pug weighs 27lbs now.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Michele McAtee said:


> With your plan, I would cut out any excess treats. The treats she does get come out of her regularly scheduled diet.


I used cut up steak, small balls of hamburger (extra lean), ground turkey or chicken and cut up pork roast as treats for Marley when I needed to take weight off of him after winter this year. (meat is less than 1/2 inch chunks)
I did factor that into his regular meals (I would cut up the meat, weigh out a pound at a time and place it in separate baggies). 

The reason I like using meat as a treat as it is all protein with minimal fat content.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Always, always, always feed towards body condition score. The calculations on the bag are very much averages and there's a ton of individual variation, just like with humans.

The school of thought used to be add in lots of insoluble fiber (soybean hulls and mill run, peanut hulls, powdered cellulose, etc) into diets like Hill's r/d. So the dog could eat the same volume to feel full, but have less calories. Problem with that was the dog's coats looked like crap. But they are changing that school of thought and have actually reformulated r/d for the better (not that I would still recommend it, but just as a point for reference). They added more soluble fiber like beet pulp which gives the brain satiety signals from the gut and upped the protein to increase palatability. 

Anyways, I'd give something like EVO Reduced Fat a try. One problem with regular EVO is that it has a higher % of fat to take the place of lower carbs, so their reduced fat ups the protein and lowers the fat. I don't know anyone who has personally tried it, but sounds pretty good in theory.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Take a correct portion of food and divide it into at least 3 portions - preferably 6 or more. Your dog works for every single piece of kibble. Dog doesn't obey or eat the food, put the food away. Come back to it in a 1/2 hour or so and try again.

Not only do you get measured portions, eliminate treats, and give frequent meals, it sets up you and your dog perfectly for the clicker 
training that you've been wanting to try.

Diet your dog as described above and the diet will be the coolest thing that has ever happened to your dog. Feed LESS of BETTER food.


The problems I see with fat dogs are:

1. The owners can't control their own emotions about food.
2. Owner feeds a lot of crappy food. (Gotta buy a BIG bag of "low calorie" dog treats so Fido can loose weight.  )


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

As Anne and others have said, regardless of how you figure it, training "treats" should be good enough food to be part of the diet. No problem giving them -- they are subtracted from what ends up in the supper bowl.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I want to add that a dog who disdains real food (including commercially ground/frozen RMBs) for longer than the usual suspicion period about something new with a strange texture is almost certainly an overfed dog. 

Smooth exercise. Less food than required to maintain the present weight. Training treats that are real food and that are figured into the daily total. Ultra-low-calorie "fluff" (like high-water green produce) is OK to keep the dog better satisfied.


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I want to add that a dog who disdains real food (including commercially ground/frozen RMBs) for longer than the usual suspicion period about something new with a strange texture is almost certainly an overfed dog.
> 
> Smooth exercise. Less food than required to maintain the present weight. Training treats that are real food and that are figured into the daily total. Ultra-low-calorie "fluff" (like high-water green produce) is OK to keep the dog better satisfied.


She's definitely spoiled- though to be fair our other dog (who is like a vacuum with food- will try anything once) wouldn't eat the commercial raw stuff either.  (At least, that variety of it. I haven't tried any others yet. Maybe it was just a bad batch or something?)

Anyway, it sounds like I'm on the right track with limiting her food and figuring her treats in as part of her nutrition for the day. (Like I said, they're just dried chicken breast strips, nothing added, so I feel happy enough with them as a food-source in small amounts- 1 or 2 a day only isn't going to mess up her weight loss.  ) I may actually bag up her food into portions in ziploc baggies so that if anyone wants to give her a 'treat' during the day, they can take from the day's baggie.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kris Dow said:


> I'm on the right track with limiting her food and figuring her treats in as part of her nutrition for the day. (Like I said, they're just dried chicken breast strips, nothing added, so I feel happy enough with them as a food-source in small amounts- 1 or 2 a day only isn't going to mess up her weight loss.  )


Absolutely.

There isn't much that's lower in calories and fat or higher in protein than white meat poultry.

As long as it's not half the diet or something (because it has no calcium, since it has no bone), it's hard to think of a better training treat.


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Bringing this thread back again for a quick 'reality check' sort of question-

Since they've started on the Evo Reduced Fat (which they both love, and seem to be doing well on) both dogs seem to be getting dry skin. Is it possible it's a little TOO low-fat? 

I was thinking of adding just a couple of squirts of salmon oil once a day, alternated with some canned oily fish occasionally as a 'treat'.

(Sorry if this has been covered before- my googling attempts only came up with a lot of places selling Evo foods.)

I had stopped the salmon oil mainly because they didn't seem that thrilled by it, but I know there are benefits to fish oil besides the skin thing, so if that should solve the dry skin problem, I'll figure out a way to get them to have it.


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Too late to edit but I did want to add- Foxy is definitely slimming down, and Pirate is staying at what looks to me like a good weight. (Defined 'waist', can just see the edge of his very last ribs normally, can feel them all easily.)

In addition to changing their diet, we also discovered that Foxy is crazy about Orbee balls (she will keep her eyes on it all the way from the house to the place we've been playing with her, a couple of blocks away) so as an addition to her walk, for more exercise, we go to an area nearby which has a nice grassy hill and throw the ball for her a bit, so she has to run up and down the hill to get it.

(She's pretty fluffy, so it's harder for me to condition score her- my dad is going to weigh her in the next couple of days so we can see if she has actually slimmed down. She looks like it.)

(What I want to know is what Planet Dog put in those Orbee balls. Doggy crack?)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ok, slap me if I'm being a smarta$$. Not ment to be but I can never understand how a dog gets overweight. The can't open the fridge, their dog food bag, etc. WE feed them! Cut back on the food!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Ok, slap me if I'm being a smarta$$. Not ment to be but I can never understand how a dog gets overweight. The can't open the fridge, their dog food bag, etc. WE feed them! Cut back on the food!


 
You said a mouthful here, I just couldn’t wait to hear the slow thyroid theory. It’s a dog, whatever you feed it, cut it in half. Not only will it live but it will be healthier when it’s thin. Dogs are fat because the owners like to feed them, it must make them feel good.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Ok, slap me if I'm being a smarta$$. Not ment to be but I can never understand how a dog gets overweight. The can't open the fridge, their dog food bag, etc. WE feed them! Cut back on the food!


Mmm-kay, say what you will, but I did have to put a locking latch on the fridge containing meat for the dogs... :lol:


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Ok, slap me if I'm being a smarta$$. Not ment to be but I can never understand how a dog gets overweight. The can't open the fridge, their dog food bag, etc. WE feed them! Cut back on the food!


As I said, I think someone in the family was giving her too many extra treats to 'make up' for the new dog addition. At least we picked up on it and are doing something about it. There are many many people out there who either won't admit their dog is overweight, or make up excuses as to why they can't lose weight.

She *is* getting thinner again now- I got everyone in the family to stop giving her treats (other than the chicken breast strips as her evening 'treat', which are figured into her diet), and switched both dogs to a good quality kibble (EVO Reduced Fat) so that they're getting reasonable nutrition and are less interested in begging. (Honestly, some of the crap in dog food, it's no wonder the dogs are constantly looking for something else to eat.)

The reason I brought this thread back is to see if anyone has had a similar experience with the EVO Reduced Fat causing dry skin, and if adding a bit of good fat (salmon oil/oily fish) would sort things out, or if it's better to switch to some other food (I'd probably try the EVO regular stuff, and just feed smaller portions.)

To answer your question more generally, 'how do dogs get fat'- lack of communication within the family as to who is feeding the dog what, and how much, treats to assuage guilt (about a new dog, leaving the dog home all day, whatever), and probably the biggest one is simple lack of knowledge about basic dog nutrition- Someone feeds their dog a crappy quality food, even if they feed the amount it says on the bag, the dog will probably come bugging them for some of their dinner because the dog food isn't actually meeting his nutritional needs, and then they give them more dog food to make them go away.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Yes. Add the fat. I'm not a fan of any "low-fat" dog food. It doesn't make sense. If your dogs tolerate the food well, no biggie, you can add oil to it as needed.


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Yes. Add the fat. I'm not a fan of any "low-fat" dog food. It doesn't make sense. If your dogs tolerate the food well, no biggie, you can add oil to it as needed.


I went with the reduced fat one because they seemed to like it, and since it's lower calorie per volume than the regular stuff (which they also LOVE- apparently, EVO is their brand) I though it might be a little 'safer' in terms of if someone else decided to feed them a bit more.

However, since they both seemed to do better in terms of general health and coat condition on the Barking at the Moon, I think I may well just switch to the regular stuff now that the family is a bit better trained about not giving them tons of treats.

Is there a good list someplace of what types of oily fish are safe to give dogs, btw? I don't really eat fish myself, so I don't really know what's what.  If I just went and got a tin of sardines, could they have a whole sardine?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie is the expert on this, but from what I've learned from her:

Salmon oil is the best. Personally, I prefer the Grizzly's brand liquid in a pump bottle.

Fish liver oil is bad in too high dose or over long-term (builds up vitamin A levels, I think).

Canned mackerel is good, but not a replacement for oil in the diet.

If you're friends with a butcher, you can buy beef fat (in disgusting huge lumps) for cheap or free. Dice it (while partially frozen) into daily portion size. A 70 lb. OUTDOOR dog in WINTER would get 1/4-1/3 cup (size of an egg) per day. So I would imagine a 30 lb house dog would get about a teaspon to a tablespoon every day until the coat improved (1 to 2 weeks) and the every other or every third day to maintain.

Peanut butter is a good source of fat too.


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## Ashley Hiebing (Apr 6, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Salmon oil is the best. Personally, I prefer the Grizzly's brand liquid in a pump bottle.


I thought sardine (or other small fish) was the best for oil. I definitely could be wrong, though!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Look at how much EPA and DHA are actually in the dose, as it will hopefully say so on the bottle. That's more important than species for omega 3s since the salmon could be farmed. What is important for species is how high on the food chain the fish are and how much the fish are being over harvested. Sardines (usually) are better on both accounts than salmon and salmon is better than shark or other large sport fish. At any rate, make sure the oil is molecularly distilled to remove dioxins, PCBs, and heavy metals, especially in pregnant or lactating bitches.

Incidentally, I forgot to add...if you're doing a weight loss regime on your dogs or cats, make sure they don't lose more than 1-2% of their body weight in a week, especially cats. Otherwise the body goes into starvation mode and it starts burning muscle mass to get the necessary protein from a restricted diet. Cats can also go into hepatic lipidosis and die from a weight loss plan that's too fast.


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