# Focused heel with ball/tug



## Fara Bennett (Apr 12, 2008)

Here are a couple pics of my girl, Caydi. She's 18 months and I just decided to go for her BH. We can do the whole routine fine but it's lacking in flashiness and focus. I have been using praise and food rewards for the past several months and I guess it's time to go back to a ball/tug reward. 

My question is about the timing of the reward and how to get it back from her to start heeling again. She has a pretty solid grip so I can't really get it from her without telling her to out. But I was concerned about telling her to out too much. How do you guys get the ball back when you want to reward with it frequently?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

It is a lot easier with a ball on string, or jute roll, or small tug. What I do is teach the dog to look in my eyes when I give the foose command. I teach he must be correct, at my side, looking in my eyes as he fooses. As I'm walking I keep the reward always out of site in my pocket sometimes. I don't want the dog to focus on the reward ever. As the dog is foosing, I might show him reward then put it away to bring up drive. I might be foosing and suddenly give him the reward and play tug (pretty explosively), have him out, then just jump back into position and more of the same. The dog learns that someone else can waive a ball under his nose & he will not break because the reward and game is always with me only.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Susan!
I prefer to play tug rather then just give the reward. Once the dog has the ball (reward) you no longer hold value to the dog. I want the interaction of playing the game with me to be the reward, not just possessing the ball/tug/etc.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I always used a tug with Lyka, I found it alot easier than the ball when she was young. Now she is older and prefers the ball so I switched to the ball. My GSD pups are ball crazy, so I always used the ball for them. To get it back I just grab a 2nd ball and start playing with it. They give me this "hey.... wait a minute..... he's got another one!" look, run at me, try and bite the 2nd ball, realize they can't with the one they have in their mouth and drop it. I put my foot on the ball on the ground, put the ball I was playing with back in my pocket, hold the dog by the collar and grab the ball from under my foot. Ofcourse..... watch out that they dont bite your foot or hand when you reach for the ball 

I teach the focus a little differently, although I do like the eye-contact way, I just start differently and work up to the eye-contact once I have the dogs head looking up. I use the ball to lure their head up and ween them off this over time. I bought a ball drop jacket yesterday, I used to hate the damn things, but I think it depends on the dog I'm working with, because for Tiko I really like it. I almost feel like its cheating :lol: All his obedience work has been 100% off leash. I have done very little OB with him and I only started putting a command with the heeling 2 days ago. He is learning fast.

With Lyka, after about the 10th session I could put the tug in my pocket and get her focus to my eyes without luring it there with the toy (perhaps I could have achieved that sooner, but I'm not in a hurry, I'd rather the dog do it correct than trying to rush it).

You also need to be conscious of where the ball comes from and how you present it when you reward. If you put it in your right pocket and have them come in front of you to bite it, then the dog can develop the habit of walking too far in front of you to be closer to the ball when they anticipate it coming.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I do a combination of tug and tossing the ball. I also vary the toys from balls to bite pillows, sleeves to jute tugs. I've even used empty plastic soda bottles when I was in a pinch.

I don't know where you train but you're more than welcome to come out to our field if you need another pair of eyes. We train at 101 and Elliot otherwise I can usually be found on one of the various fields at cooper and elliot with 1-3 of my rotties.


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> It is a lot easier with a ball on string, or jute roll, or small tug. What I do is teach the dog to look in my eyes when I give the foose command. I teach he must be correct, at my side, looking in my eyes as he fooses. As I'm walking I keep the reward always out of site in my pocket sometimes. I don't want the dog to focus on the reward ever. As the dog is foosing, I might show him reward then put it away to bring up drive. I might be foosing and suddenly give him the reward and play tug (pretty explosively), have him out, then just jump back into position and more of the same. The dog learns that someone else can waive a ball under his nose & he will not break because the reward and game is always with me only.


I agree with Susan and Bob...once the dog is a bit more experienced with the toy reward though I like to keep the toy out sometimes (not as a bribe but almost as a distraction if you will) and teach the dog that the toy, even if it seems obviously available, is only available when I engage, and I engage when the day drives me to with attention.


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm interested in this subject as well. 
I am working on a Cane Corso bitch that I am training prospectively for sport. 
She is almost 6 months right now and I have just started basic obedience with her. She is a smart cookie and looks for direction from me already. I have her fairly reliably doing a Sitz, Platz and to a general lesser extent Bleib. Komm (recall) is actually the thing she is doing the best at.
Anyway, she is Heeling fairly well, but I am using kibble as a focus/reward for the moment. I agree with the above statements about using a tub or ball on a rope. However she is just under 6 months right now and while she does get tug and she will Out on command, I don't want to have the tug be all of her reward for doing a focused heel just yet. While I do want her to have fun with tug as see it as a reward I also am still doing some major bonding with her which is part of the reason I'm using food. Another is that tug is still a game with her. While she likes playing a game of tug she still sees food as more of a reward.

When she's heeling I initially told her "Fuss!" and started walking. If she walked by me with slack leash I would praise her verbally. If she was doing so and looked at me, she got a piece of kibble with the verbal praise. Only correction was self inflicted if she forged ahead of me - I didn't correct her but simply didn't allow my hand and give.
Do you think this a good method and why?
Any other suggestions?

I'm usually fairly logical and seem to be able to dish out advice left and right for other people,. but seeing as this is the first sport dog I'm TOTALLY responsible for and training right from the get go, I just want to be sure that the training methods I'm using will get me what I want.
Also, for what it matters, it's looking like I'll be doing maybe some PSA or similar kind of protection as UKC doesn't recognize Cane Corsos. :evil:

Thanks in advance - didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I too am curious about this.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> However she is just under 6 months right now and while she does get tug and she will Out on command, I don't want to have the tug be all of her reward for doing a focused heel just yet. While I do want her to have fun with tug as see it as a reward I also am still doing some major bonding with her which is part of the reason I'm using food. Another is that tug is still a game with her. While she likes playing a game of tug she still sees food as more of a reward.


Couple comments here.

First, the Out. I wouldn't be Outing her too much. Read the thread on teaching the out that was posted here this past week. Lots of info there. Everyone has their own methods, but I think everyone can agree that outing too much is not really a good thing.

I don't get what you mean about bonding and not using a tug. How does using a tug not help with bonding? And why is it a bad thing for a dog to see the tug as a game? The reward IS the game. Bond, and the dogs view of the tug, should not be the deciding factors in what you use to reward the dog.

For younger dogs I find food alot easier to work with, although unless the dog is very motivated for their kibble, I'll usually use something with a more potent smell that'll help lure their gaze upwards.




> If she was doing so and looked at me, she got a piece of kibble with the verbal praise. Only correction was self inflicted if she forged ahead of me - I didn't correct her but simply didn't allow my hand and give.


I wouldn't be correcting at all, even self correction, and I wouldn't be saying anything if the dog was surging and not looking up. If you want a focused heel, the ONLY praise and attention a dog gets is when their eyes are facing you. The key to training it is more about how you, as a handler, maneuver your body and communicate with the dog to GET them to WANT to look up. It's alot easier with a dog that is obsessive with food or toy. I would have the dog on a flat collar and walk in small circles while teasing the dog to get them to look up, then reward the second they do. Then expand on this. It doesn't take long for the dog to figure out "if I look up I get a reward." I am not even that picky about correct position in the beginning, my goal is to have the dog walking somewhere near correct position while looking up. I will fine tune it once they understand that they have to look up and come up with creative ways to ensure correct position. Walking along a fence, along a wall, turning a certain way etc. If you reward at the correct time when the dog is in position he will figure it out.

I know some trainers start the dog with a prong and use it to get the dog to look up and then reward with the ball. But it can be done without a prong if you have a driven dog, so why correct when there is no need?

I don't know anything about your breed and their drive or focus level. I don't do any heeling with my dogs at 6 months old because they are still too goofy for my taste. I would just focus on getting the dog to look up and rewarding for that, with a "high value treat" as some people like to call it. But I still don't get what tugs have to do with bond.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Kris Finison said:


> I'm interested in this subject as well.
> I am working on a Cane Corso bitch that I am training prospectively for sport.
> She is almost 6 months right now and I have just started basic obedience with her. She is a smart cookie and looks for direction from me already. I have her fairly reliably doing a Sitz, Platz and to a general lesser extent Bleib. Komm (recall) is actually the thing she is doing the best at.
> Anyway, she is Heeling fairly well, but I am using kibble as a focus/reward for the moment. I agree with the above statements about using a tub or ball on a rope. However she is just under 6 months right now and while she does get tug and she will Out on command, I don't want to have the tug be all of her reward for doing a focused heel just yet. While I do want her to have fun with tug as see it as a reward I also am still doing some major bonding with her which is part of the reason I'm using food. Another is that tug is still a game with her. While she likes playing a game of tug she still sees food as more of a reward.
> ...


Chris,

I have two corsos (2 1/2 years and 9 weeks) and a rottweiler (5 years). I just started attention healing with my my 2 1/2 year old cane corso, he is catching on. My trainer who has 30 years of schutzhund training states that you should start by asking for attention in short stints (10 seconds ata time )and then extend the amont of time little by little untilyou get up to 2 - 5 minutes between treats or his reward (ball, etc). Once the dog masters this then start heeling by taking a few steps at a time like three then treat then three more than treat. Do this for a while until he masters this. From there gradually increase the number of steps that you take until your dog can do an attention heal for 25 steps without loosing attention. At that point be sure to start correcting the dog for falling out of attention and rewarding for maintaining attention. 

Then start adding turns with heeling, (i.e do right turn for a while before you more to left turn or figure eight). Dogs learn by repetition. You must start out slow and do it over and over again. 

The UKC will allow a corso to register and compete in protection sports if that corso is registered with the AKC. I am considering doing some SDA stuff after we accomplish other goals. You should also seek more information about training and raising a corso on these forums: http://www.canecorsoforum.info/
http://www.ccaaforum.com/forums/
http://www.thesacci.com/forums/


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks for the tips. 
Mike, I guess I didn't explain that very well. Tug is a game with her, but I am still trying to establish that I am the source of her food (especially when it's a reward for when she's doing what I want) and as she is very food motivated I'm not using tug as a reward just yet. While she does like to tug, I can keep her attention for much, much longer with food for the time being. Does that clear things up a bit?

Mari, thanks for the links. I'd like to see some pictures of yours sometime.


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## Fara Bennett (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks everyone!! You mean there is not just one right way to do this??? hahaha :wink:

We did a couple of very short sessions since I posted yesterday and she did really good. Good focus and enthusiasm. Her focus at basic position was always good in the past, but once we fussed, then she looked forward, because I didn't require anything else. She responds great to "watch" but I never asked for it while in motion. Hopefully she will catch on quick. Actually, I'm sure she will, as long as I can get my timing and coordination right, always a challenge :grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Fara Bennett said:


> Thanks everyone!! You mean there is not just one right way to do this??? hahaha :wink:
> 
> We did a couple of very short sessions since I posted yesterday and she did really good. Good focus and enthusiasm. Her focus at basic position was always good in the past, but once we fussed, then she looked forward, because I didn't require anything else. She responds great to "watch" but I never asked for it while in motion. Hopefully she will catch on quick. Actually, I'm sure she will, as long as I can get my timing and coordination right, always a challenge :grin:


When you take that first step and the dog looks away, bring out the tug and show the dog what it lost then put it away and start over. Just take one slow step and mark and reward if the dog keeps eye contact. To many people want to take off with full heeling and hope the dog keeps eye contact. If that first step isn't correct then your rewarding for a faulty exercise.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Kris Finison said:


> Thanks for the tips.
> Mike, I guess I didn't explain that very well. Tug is a game with her, but I am still trying to establish that I am the source of her food (especially when it's a reward for when she's doing what I want) and as she is very food motivated I'm not using tug as a reward just yet. While she does like to tug, I can keep her attention for much, much longer with food for the time being. Does that clear things up a bit?
> 
> Mari, thanks for the links. I'd like to see some pictures of yours sometime.


Kris,

Here is a link to pictures of my male corso particpating in the APPDA mock trial. http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=4966 APPDA is challenging and fun. We still have a long way to go with our training but he is coming along nicely. Since he is my first pp sport dog, I am please with want has been accomplished with him over the last year of training. He is now 2 1/2 years old.


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## Fara Bennett (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> When you take that first step and the dog looks away, bring out the tug and show the dog what it lost then put it away and start over. Just take one slow step and mark and reward if the dog keeps eye contact. To many people want to take off with full heeling and hope the dog keeps eye contact. If that first step isn't correct then your rewarding for a faulty exercise.


Would you be using a command during these 1st few sessions while she is learning that she should be watching? 

In the past I would have her in basic position. She would automatically keep her focus on me and I would say "good watch". She kept her focus until I said "fuss". Then we immediately started moving forward and she would look away from my face. So, now, when I start walking with her and she is looking up because of the ball, do I give a command for her to associate that she should be watching? Or do I wait until she does it reliably? Or no command at all?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

with my dog, fuss means sit on my side and look at me. I spent a good week doing nothing but having him sit by my side and look at me. Then I would move 6 inches or so forward, backwards and to the side. So now when we walk he's just doing what he has to, to get to the next sit.

I also taught him to follow my left leg only, where ever that leg is, he is.

I'll show you when we hook up.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> with my dog, fuss means sit on my side and look at me. I spent a good week doing nothing but having him sit by my side and look at me. Then I would move 6 inches or so forward, backwards and to the side. So now when we walk he's just doing what he has to, to get to the next sit.
> 
> I also taught him to follow my left leg only, where ever that leg is, he is.
> 
> I'll show you when we hook up.


 
Me too! As a great trainer I know always says "You must build a solid foundation. If you have a solid foundation, even with strong correction or any stress, a dog remembers his solid foundation" "Foose" is first part of the foundation.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't use a separate command for eye contact. I just mark and reward for "fuss". That can be stationary or the beginning of movement. The mark and reward only comes if the dog is making eye contact during those two times. 
I want the fuss command to be as much about eye contact as the position at my left leg, movement or not.
Even without command my dog has learned that my formal position of standing straight and looking ahead is a signal to get in position WITH eye contact.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, I have never understood those who teach "watch me" type command seperate from "fuss".


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

The first thing I ever taught my dog was "Me". We've been doing it since he was 8wks old. I haven't tested it lately but at 9 month we had a solid four minutes with distractions. Attention is probably the biggest foundation block in any OB training.

It's very useful when out in public. My dog can be dog aggressive with certain dogs so I just don't take chances. If we're walking and I see somebody else walking a dog, all I have to do is say ME and he'll look at me until I say OK.

I save the fuss for trials and such. I don't need attention heeling when I'm in Lowes, though sometimes I trained it in there just because of all the distractions.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Yes, I have never understood those who teach "watch me" type command seperate from "fuss".


I taught them seperate to begin with...as Ivan Balabanov does in his OB without conflict video's. I first taught him to "watch" and then I taught him to "find the leg". As someone already mentioned - first just standing still then moving a step forward, backwards and to the side. Adding to the number of steps each day. Now I say "volg" and he does both. It was easier in the beginning stages at least for me....and still is now under heavy distractions...to have a seperate command for both. If he is heeling very nicely at my left leg but looks away for a split second - I can correct and let him know that I am correcting for his failure to "watch" - not his body position to my left leg. Likewise if he forges or lags but has very nice focus...I can correct him verbally or with the leash with the volg command letting him know that it was his body position that was incorrect. Just easier for me...and I believe less conflict all around for the both of us. Whatever works......


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think you said it perfectly, it's what is easier or what comes more naturally for the individual.


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## Aamer Sachedina (May 6, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Yes, I have never understood those who teach "watch me" type command seperate from "fuss".


I teach "watch me" and a separate positional command "leg" separately and it makes a lot of sense to do so IMHO. To a green dog they are two distinct behaviours that you are asking for and it is thus clearer to the dog to teach the two separately and then combine them into a single "fuss" which means both.

My own opinion is that many dog/handler teams in SCH don't clearly establish what the correct position is. The dog may look good, energetic, eye contact but if you are into the detail then there is something to the dog understanding exactly what the right position is. The best way in my opinion to teach this right position is to do it separately from a watch and then combine the two together into a "fuss".

Much like anything else YMMV and there many ways to do the same thing. There is however a well thought through reason why many of us teach them separately initially. The reason is no different from what all of us do when training any other kind of exercise that combines multiple actions - like teaching a dumbell hold separate from the actual retrieve.


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