# "Sharp" dogs



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I am looking for opinions from people who have owned 'sharp' dogs. Do you think that sharpness = weak nerves? Almost all of the dogs that I have encountered that were super quick to act aggressively were also the ones who had trouble with heavy distractions and stick hits or other kinds of pressure in dog sports. Are most of them like this since bark = scare away bad guy = dog feels threatened= dog is scared?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

georgia estes said:


> I am looking for opinions from people who have owned 'sharp' dogs. Do you think that sharpness = weak nerves? Almost all of the dogs that I have encountered that were super quick to act aggressively were also the ones who had trouble with heavy distractions and stick hits or other kinds of pressure in dog sports. Are most of them like this since bark = scare away bad guy = dog feels threatened= dog is scared?


More often than not dogs that are like you described have underlying nerves issues. Just be sure not to confuse "sharp" dogs with a dog who is very socially dominant and is forwardly aggressive for reasons other than bad nerves (which happens much less often, but this is the case with one or two dogs) but if you see a dog with stick issues, or one who falls apart under heavy stress then it obviously has thin nerves.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have always considered them weaker, bad nerved. Mike brings up a social aggresive dog that can be like this but he hasn't got a nerve problem at all. I had never considered this because I have never seen a sharp dog that I considered that stong but I am sure they are out there....and I would guess it would be a dog to be careful with also. As Mike said, you just don't see em that often.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

That's kind of what I thought. I am always bitching that my dog isn't sharp enough but shes got great nerve BECAUSE she's not sharp. I need to quit my whining. lol


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> That's kind of what I thought. I am always bitching that my dog isn't sharp enough but shes got great nerve BECAUSE she's not sharp. I need to quit my whining. lol


not being sharp does not equal great nerves, I am sure you knew that though.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

No, her not retreating ever makes her have good nerve.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> No, her not retreating ever makes her have good nerve.


sounds good to me


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I guess it all depends on what your defintion of "sharpness" is? Kinda like the whole "threshold" issue......

Many common terms have different meaning to different people, so starting with what your defintion is might get you a better answer.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I guess my definition is a dog that lights up aggressively very easily without being provoked..i.e. walking by the car, spotting someone across the street, someone jogging far away and acting aggressively.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> I guess my definition is a dog that lights up aggressively very easily without being provoked..i.e. walking by the car, spotting someone across the street, someone jogging far away and acting aggressively.


Lighting up on someone by the car is not indicative of weak nerves, It can be...but it can also be territorial dominance. guarding. etc. Dogs are usually much more aggressive in a crate, in a car, etc. Hell I bet most peoples dogs on here light up when someone walks by the car.

spotting someone across the street, can't agree with that one either unfortunately.

not even the jogging one seals the deal.

If you are equating sharpness to weak nerves then I cannot agree with any of these examples of a sharp dog. It is possible, but I would not make those judgements based on these traits alone. There could be other reasons for these behaviors.

I agree Jody, depends on how you view it.

I look at in terms of how armin describes it..The way I use it probably is equivalent to strong active aggression. The propensity to react with real violence, bite first, ask questions later...separate of thresholds.

I know most people look at it in terms of nerve/thresholds, I can live with that too...but these examples can all be displayed by a dog with great nerves.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Lighting up on someone by the car is not indicative of weak nerves, It can be...but it can also be territorial dominance. guarding. etc.
> 
> spotting someone across the street, can't agree with that one either unfortunately.
> 
> ...


Agreed


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I know most people look at it in terms of nerve/thresholds, I can live with that too...but these examples can all be displayed by a dog with great nerves.


That's my question, is a dog that's super fast to react even over nothing, a sharp dog, and does it usually equal weakness?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> That's my question, is a dog that's super fast to react even over nothing, a sharp dog, and does it usually equal weakness?


I would say if you are talking family pets it "usually" does yes, but not always..maybe not even that...but most of these types will have weaker nerves if thouroughly tested... 

If you are talking about "working" type dogs then I would not agree with the "usually". 

Your "nothing" might be a challenge to a certain type of dog....or trigger some drive.

Even more so if he was additionally encouraged/ trained to be "sharper" by the definition used.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I should have put, a dog that hasn't really been trained yet, who is just naturally like that but thanks. Just wanted to pick some brains today I guess. :wink:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

georgia estes said:


> That's my question, is a dog that's super fast to react even over nothing, a sharp dog, and does it usually equal weakness?


 
If he's reacting to nothing.... then he's a nutter.

Sharp in my vocabulary... could be dogs or horses even, generally equals a very reactionary animal that is easily distracted...kind of more of a reaction as opposed to a response if you get my drift.

I'm not so sure of your question as it seems already to have been answered.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This is a question....I never judge a dogs reaction while on a leash. They just act different. Call it more to the defense side or any of a number of other things. A dog that has no reaction off leash, odten tuimes reacts when on one in the same situation. Can you judge a dog on a leash as well as off.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is a question....I never judge a dogs reaction while on a leash. They just act different. Call it more to the defense side or any of a number of other things. A dog that has no reaction off leash, odten tuimes reacts when on one in the same situation. Can you judge a dog on a leash as well as off.


confinement certainly can affect certain things, as well as area...like if i casually strolled into your zoo..minding my own business walking casually on the other side of the fence...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> I should have put, a dog that hasn't really been trained yet, who is just naturally like that but thanks. Just wanted to pick some brains today I guess. :wink:


no prob...could still talk about what occurs naturally...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> If he's reacting to nothing.... then he's a nutter.
> 
> Sharp in my vocabulary... could be dogs or horses even, generally equals a very reactionary animal that is easily distracted...kind of more of a reaction as opposed to a response if you get my drift.
> 
> I'm not so sure of your question as it seems already to have been answered.


oooh i agree that most people would classify certain types of dogs "nutty" for certain things that they would do, especially without training (control), but that doesn't necessarily equal weakness, that was my point....


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

My dog ate 24 decorative soaps once, does that constitute nutty, hungry, or maybe soap is a delicacy in doggie land. lol


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> oooh i agree that most people would classify certain types of dogs "nutty" for certain things that they would do, especially without training (control), but that doesn't necessarily equal weakness, that was my point....


 
I wasn't disagreeing with you Joby, but a dog that kicks off apparently at nothing and frequently apparently, unless I have gotten the wrong idea here....is a nervy dog, or something not quite right or at least, desirable for a job requiring focus and co-operation. 

That's not to say that is the case 100% of the time, I suspect from the description of the dog so far and, the op's signature (sorry if that appears rude)! that the dog's not entirely a happy dog here if that's what's going on. That's just an opinion on what it sounds like.


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I wasn't disagreeing with you Joby, but a dog that kicks off apparently at nothing and frequently apparently, unless I have gotten the wrong idea here....is a nervy dog, or something not quite right or at least, desirable for a job requiring focus and co-operation.
> 
> That's not to say that is the case 100% of the time, I suspect from the description of the dog so far and, the op's signature (sorry if that appears rude)! that the dog's not entirely a happy dog here if that's what's going on. That's just an opinion on what it sounds like.


 
Hi Maggie,

I wasn't talking about my dog, she is not sharp at all. She has no nerve issues whatsoever and can take a real licking from a decoy.  I was just asking about them in general just as a curiosoty thing. 8)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

georgia estes said:


> Hi Maggie,
> 
> I wasn't talking about my dog, she is not sharp at all. She has no nerve issues whatsoever and can take a real licking from a decoy.  I was just asking about them in general just as a curiosoty thing. 8)


OK


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

georgia estes said:


> I am looking for opinions from people who have owned 'sharp' dogs. Do you think that sharpness = weak nerves? Almost all of the dogs that I have encountered that were super quick to act aggressively were also the ones who had trouble with heavy distractions and stick hits or other kinds of pressure in dog sports. Are most of them like this since bark = scare away bad guy = dog feels threatened= dog is scared?


 
IMO, "sharpness" = "thresholds". now, dogs that are "super quick to act aggressively" i personally think are nerve-bags, while dogs that are simply super quick to respond to stimuli (including their handler's commands), may not be. 

some degree of sharpness is required in a dog that's being worked/trained in protection sports/psd/pp or the dog simply won't work--"yawn, oh i think i'll take a nap". so, "sharp" in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean a dog has weak nerves--i think it's the "degree" that matters, ie, the threshold level.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Soooo, whats is this? Sharpness in a goodway?:mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iqTCt5UCH4


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

my bad, i thought the discussion was more toward older dogs. but re: that particular pup, and 30 secs of video--i have no opinion; not enough information.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The line between sharp and nervy is very very thin, so definitions need to be very firm to be of any use.

When I was a kid, the definition of a sharp dog was very different in a lot of ways to what I see a lot of people describing today.

Back then, the dog was quick to bite and serious from the start, and didn't need much provacation. 

HOWEVER, the difference to those who only sort of know dogs is very blurry, and lots of breeders and brokers and whatever sold a lot of nervy dogs as "sharp".

This is also what a LOT of people describe their nervy dogs to people, so it doesn't sting as bad as "my dog is a nervy shitter" would. They also "shop" for opinions till they find like minded people, so they can say so and so has seen my dog, and he described him as sharp.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The line between sharp and nervy is very very thin, so definitions need to be very firm to be of any use.
> 
> When I was a kid, the definition of a sharp dog was very different in a lot of ways to what I see a lot of people describing today.
> 
> ...


 Damnit!!!!! I have to agree with Jeff on this one.:razz:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think it's one of those terms that has to be judged on the curve.
It can be a good thing, even a very good thing till it gets over the top then it's all down hill from there. :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I think we should define "nervy' also so we don't confuse them.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I can't help it, I find the description "sharp" as negative.

On the other hand, we're discussing this, regardless of breeds.

I've had various breeds of dogs. Had 2 Jack Russells, where I would have described the bitch as "sharp", always ready to take a nip but handler sensitive and always behind the male when danger lurked. The male, from the Cheshire Hunt breeders in the UK was friendly with all humans but would have attacked any 4-legged creature on earth. The breeder regretted selling him! He bred them for such "qualities".

I had a Fila Brasileiro who was "sharp" (I prefer quick on the uptake for this dog :mrgreen at first but settled down to be a dog that I knew exactly what was going on in his head (so to speak). Manageable just because of this. He had no fear of humans but would react rumbunctiously if given a command from anyone but us. On the other hand, I have often asked myself "are all the Fila Brasileiros" nutters?" or are they mismanaged dogs by people who haven't realised what they were bred for?

Nervy dogs are for me dogs that nearly jump out of their skin when something untoward happens. They can be "nearly normal" in a quiet, countrified environment but in the town or at a fair, or whatever, would cringe at the slightest noise. Someone passing their hand over their heads, speaking in a loud voice, etc. etc.

For me, natural aggression (well-bred) and sharpness are at opposite ends of the pole.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The line between sharp and nervy is very very thin, so definitions need to be very firm to be of any use.
> 
> When I was a kid, the definition of a sharp dog was very different in a lot of ways to what I see a lot of people describing today.
> 
> ...


YAY! I agree with Jeff 100%


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

i consider sharp as "quick to bite - reasons unspecified" - could be nervy, dominant or whatever but he is going to try and nail you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> i consider sharp as "quick to bite - reasons unspecified" - could be nervy, dominant or whatever but he is going to try and nail you.


Now that is the way I have always thought of sharp


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've been thinking a little more about this sharp.

Generally sharp means to me a little overreactive in a negative way, but the term razor sharp, very very quick on the uptake... whatever it is and is very positive.

So, razor sharp = very positive sharp = nervy. Just gone and confused myself I think.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

as jeff said, definitions (as usual) are important. to me, there are "degrees" of sharpness, again, thresholds are the key; the dogs with very high thresholds that might lift their heads if someone's at the door to dogs that fire up when a bird flies over the house.

i personally want a dog that's aware of everything that's going on around them, but doesn't react to every litttle thing.


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The line between sharp and nervy is very very thin, so definitions need to be very firm to be of any use.
> 
> When I was a kid, the definition of a sharp dog was very different in a lot of ways to what I see a lot of people describing today.
> 
> ...


 that is about as clear as it gets!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The only problem I have ever had with these dogs is that they do not reproduce themselves the way I would like. Most do not reproduce themselves at all.

I have seen dogs with good thresholds and solid solid training act like they were sharp. Without the different types of dogs to show someone, it is a blurry blurry line for sure.

The sharp dogs do not need to be trained to have this reaction to threat. That is one big difference. the dogs I am talking about also do not bite with the front of their mouth. I have no idea why I am trying to clear this up, as I really could give a shit.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

and i was just talking about a dog in it's "natural" state, ie, before training in much except a bit of OB & tracking, as that's what my own experience is in--the young ones, lol. 

interesting about the bite though jeff--i'll have to watch that, esp w/Ike, as i suspect he has low thresholds. not a nerve-bag like the old Dobie, but definitely, ummm--"reactive" to stimuli.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Every dog I've owned or seen that I would call "sharp" (by my definition), which is not that many..a dozen or so..give or take...would bite quickly and forcefully without prior training if threatened...

regardless of the "threshold" it took for them to perceive the threat.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

God, you really just don't ****ing understand at all do you.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Every dog I've owned or seen that I would call "sharp" (by my definition), which is not that many..a dozen or so..give or take...would bite quickly and forcefully without prior training if threatened...
> 
> regardless of the "threshold" it took for them to perceive the threat.


 
That's a contradiction I think, I reckon folks are just blabbering now. I was going to add another post but decided not to as I reckon I would be blabbering too ! :grin: Maybe we need a more specifc term...that which is a little more enlightening per se, too many variations and definitions of the term sharp.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

so joby, what IS your definition of "sharp", and is it not related to some sort of threshold? ie, some level of "whatever" that results in a response?

i'm curious because to me, that threshold is the key to a "sharp" reaction vs. one that's not.

and jeff and maggie were typing while i was...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> That's a contradiction I think, I reckon folks are just blabbering now. I was going to add another post but decided not to as I reckon I would be blabbering too ! :grin: Maybe we need a more specifc term...that which is a little more enlightening per se, too many variations and definitions of the term sharp.


I still keep the sharpness "term" separate from low "threshold".
I see that to most it is a threshold thing...
I still keep "low threshold" separate from a "nerve" thing. 

I see all 3 as being separate from eachother...sharpness, nerves, and thresholds..but all having some overlap.

To me a sharp dog is one that will act with forceful committed violence without any warning. 
But yeah mostly babbling now.... I will try to look at these things from a more common viewpoint....

I understand Jeff, I do...just still not lumping everything into "thresholds" as I define it.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I still keep the sharpness "term" separate from low "threshold".
> I see that to most it is a threshold thing...
> I still keep "low threshold" separate from a "nerve" thing.
> 
> ...


 
:lol: Joby... now you're not going to go and dedicate a passionate, emotional and very illustrious thread to me if I address you here and blabber too will you ? :grin:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

and i see them as all inter-related. interesting...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

examples to clarify how i see it.

A dog that is socially aggressive and dominant. Maybe he is ok to be petted if people are careful and do not make it a point to interact too much...someone pays too much attention to the dog pats him a little too much or whatever, and gets nailed...for petting him.

A dominant dog that someone stands over and bends down to pet them, Dog nails them becuase the person "challenged" them with their posture by hovering over them.

A dominant dog that someone stares at, maybe smiles at...and gets nailed for smiling at the dog and staring.

A resource guarding dominant dog that is crazy about food....someone walks by his food bowl and gets nailed...for walking by.

A dominant, territorial dog that is left in the yard. The neighbor drops his pruners over the fence and reaches over to retrieve them, and gets nailed for reaching over the fence, even though he knows the dog.

All these happen very quickly, violently and decisively, no growls, no barks, all bite.
these are examples of sharp the way i see it.. 
not a nerve issues or "threshold" issue in regards to working the dog in bite work...quick to bite forcibly without warning.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I don't... over reactive to anything and everything is a complete waste of energy, dogs like that would burn out pretty quick I reckon, frazzled we call it. Super quick response with commitment and energy is a little different to a blind reaction I think, I like the brain to engage which is a different state to a dog which is trained or conditioned to just react.

I think a razor sharp dog with super fast responses is a dog which engages it's brain if you don't mess with his natural processes.

I'm blabbering.....Joby, you ever had a dog that you didn't mess with , you know, like tried to teach him how to be a proper dog?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I'm blabbering.....Joby, you ever had a dog that you didn't mess with , you know, like tried to teach him how to be a proper dog?


No problem....Not sure what you mean, but I take offense to that...LOL

Yes of course, I've had quite a few dogs that never saw any type of bitework. And others that have had a lot of bitework...

And all but one are what you would call "proper"

I've owned one "sharp" dog as I see it, I have known more..They are very rare...he was proper too, just what most would classify as nutty....not ideal for a family PP dog, but great for a single guy who is good with dogs.

That type of dog requires a high degree of control, and with work and awareness can be manageable. Just not to be trusted in certain situations. Training is not going to change a "sharp" dog, it will make him more manageable, but the risk will still be there.

A liability still for sure.

I like a social, trustable dog. 

but do not fault a dominant, territorial, or sharp dog either...and think they are fine in the right hands..

In bitework, until recently i was mostly involved with PP and some PSD.

Recently took an interest in sport, and started working some PSA and FR dogs. 

Until the last couple years, most of my experience with sport dogs was involved in converting them over to PP or PSD. never really trained for sport until recently....

I have always believed a PP dog needs to be social and trustable in normal situations. If he has to be locked up for liability reasons, he cannot protect anything. If he bites the wrong people he does more harm than he is worth.

If you are talking "guard" type only then nuts is ok, cause they are not interacting with people on a regular basis. 

PSD dogs vary..some are PR dogs, totally trustable..take them to schools for demos and stuff....going the other way to dogs that are used for cell extraction only...used to go in and bite, and gain control of a violent or unwilling inmate and thats it.

I am now training my personal dog for sport, but will have an aggressive edge in the work, and exposure to defense work, but will be very "proper" by anyones standards.

These boards have a way of not relaying tone very well, sometimes when you "over" explain or clarify, people can misinterpret what is being said or how you mean it, or make assumptions about you that are false...I am a normal guy with normal expectations...very "proper" not as pompous as it might seem...lol

that is why I don't get involved with "chatting" or texting too much, because of the "tone" thing...would rather talk on the phone ( a little better) or in person....

hope that helps a little...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

For maggie....

My "proper" dog and my new GF's 11 year old...(repost) not being offensive or defensive..or arguing....just "clarifying"


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ahhhh the old PP trainers "dog with kid" photo. LOL

I see from your posts that you really didn't get what I was saying. Thats ok.

Quote: A dog that is socially aggressive and dominant. Maybe he is ok to be petted if people are careful and do not make it a point to interact too much...someone pays too much attention to the dog pats him a little too much or whatever, and gets nailed...for petting him.

I call that a nervebag. Maybe that helps you get it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

kevin holford said:


> Soooo, whats is this? Sharpness in a goodway?:mrgreen:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iqTCt5UCH4


If this behavior came from a German Shepherd pup I would be very concerned and not in a good way I and surly wouldn't pick it for work or sport.
I must say I have no knowledge of what Bouv pups are like


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> If this behavior came from a German Shepherd pup I would be very concerned and not in a good way I and surly wouldn't pick it for work or sport.
> I must say I have no knowledge of what Bouv pups are like


I have no clue either...but unless that guy is a pro, I wouldn't recommend encouraging it....LOL


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