# Article on the GSD



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Any comments on this article about the problems, according to the writer, in the working GSD?
http://dog.co.il/gsdnew/gsdnew/iwgsdc.htm


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

> The "Test of courage" , in this kind of trials, at best will reveal only the worst dogs. That is to say, a relatively poor dog will succeed in passing the test if trained by a skilled trainer and no mistakes have been made in his training.
> 
> The significance of Schutzhund and IPO is not real; they are carried out without any disturbances and in sterile conditions that are well known in advance. Also the tracking part of the test is not realistic; preparation of the track is not natural, the dog carries his nose too low, so that he can not perform tracking in a true manner. I would like to emphasize that I am not against the sport of Schutzhund, IPO, and others. I am very much opposed to those that claim that Schutzhund is a test of working dogs and/or defense dogs. These tests do not show the following:
> 
> ...


I think alot of people share the same concerns. It would be interesting to see what selection and working tests were designed by this person that actually address or resolve these issues.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I think he is right on target. Sorry


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i have to agree with both daryl and jerry. it's almost come to the point in this breed (as with many other working breeds, btw) that in my life-time there will come a schism in the breed: working-type vs show-type, and the working qualifications are subject to question.

as just a concerned owner/breed lover and not a breeder, i'm not sure what i can do to change the tide except buy the dogs that can actually do/are bred for the honest work of herding, promote that work on my little bitty acreage, and hope that that will help the breed (yeah, right).

i've said for 20+ years: there's nothing better than a good german-bred dog (of any breed, and that doesn't mean they have to be bred IN germany) and i still believe that. they're just virtually impossible to find anymore. 

i hope that makes sense--it does to ME anyway!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sad but so true! 
The worst part is, you can sub the GSD name with many, many breeds today and the idea behind the article would still fit.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

The schism between the working and show GSD has been there for s long time, but is the working line GSD really in such trouble, or is this just a myth people have bee reapeting the last 10-15 years? Because it´s hardly any news that the GSD is so weak and sick , heard that before, but is it really true, for the workinglines I mean?
What can be done if so? I mean, the tools we already have, there are different protectionprogramms and temperamentest already available, or is the problem not the sport and tools we use, is it something else?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What can be done????

Well really very little. I think that everyone has their idea of what is what when it comes to a GSD. It is pretty much based on one dog, and a good percentage of people base it on the first GSD.

This is the problem. Everyones idea of ideal is completely different, and very few could put it in writing. Too much "etheral" (myth) for my taste.

Sch is now about the scores, not dogs and we have generations of people that enjoy watching the middle dogs out there showing displacement behavior and calling it power. They screwed with terminology and are very happy with their dogs. Their dogs cannot produce shit, so there is always an "import" from the new cool region of the world to get GSD's from.

And you were wondering were my deep seated hate of the sport comes from?????? LOL What I hate the worst is the "excuse" that it is all that is around.

There are people overseas that are breeding good GSD's. They do not have all the crybabys that we do here screaming BYB BYB PUPPYMILLER if you breed more than one or two litters a year.

When I first saw "one or two" litters a year, all I could think of was the money. You cannot know your lines so well as to only produce one or two a year and have good dogs come from it. Then I saw what people thought were "good" dogs.

When I hear peole talking about breeding here in this country, I just hear that Monty Python song where the children are singing about sacred sperm in my head. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What can be done????
> 
> Well really very little. I think that everyone has their idea of what is what when it comes to a GSD. It is pretty much based on one dog, and a good percentage of people base it on the first GSD.
> 
> ...


i agree with this to a point. it seems to me that first, there needs to be a REALISTIC way of measuring the abilities the dogs were meant to have as a breed (any breed, not just GSD).

and here is the sticky point: what is a good measure? Sch in theory is a pretty good measure of all-round working ability in GSD, except it ignores their primary function as a herding dog. and the theory doesn't translate to the practical/practiced test.

and it certainly doesn't apply the form=function theory!! plus, we're dealing with human judges, with all their unique faults. 

oh well, i can't just shoot myself or my dog, so i guess i'll just keep doing the best i can with what i've got


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: it ignores their primary function as a herding dog.

Not sure that anyone invisioned the GSD as primarily a herding dog, although it goes back to my thoughts on what people percieve the breed to be. I have always thought of them as PSD's first.........now it is all ****ed up in my head.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, shall we get even FURTHER into semantics? a german SHEPHERD dog. what does the word "shepherd" bring to mind? 

oh, i'm not even going there with you dear jeff. will anyone address the questions raised BEFORE jeff's "duh" response? 

i think this is a VERY legitimate thread, and one that i personally think could result in some good ideas on how the "working" part of working breeds can ultimately be defined/tested.

i really hope that the ppl that are involved/invested in the "working dog" part of the forum will address/respond to the issue. i think it could be WAY informative!! and i look forward to hearing ideas, but not only ideas, but how to implement them, etc...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The GSD was a herder before it was a PSD. What characteristics were seen that made such a huge difference when the first PSD's were being selected? 
Obviously there was something that set it apart from the other breeds. 
I don't know if it's still done but the GSD, at one time, had to show the ability to protect the herder in order to attain the HGH title.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

at this point, i believe the only way the GSD will be saved will be to inject some other breeds blood into it (MH, HH). sure, there are still some GSD's producing good GSD's, but not enough to make a dent in the show line crap that is out there. herein lies the rub. if you start putting mal and dutchie blood in the mix in large quantities, then what becomes of all the pups? are there enough "working" homes for these dogs to goto? will they just end up in shelters because they are "problem pets"? i hope not. 

my opinion of GSD's needing mal or dutchie comes almost as much from a health perspective as it does from a working perspective. i have said it before and i'll say it again, IMO, you can't beat a GOOD GSD for a working dog. they are just VERY hard to come by. i have only seen a handful of them in my time. i had one. he was awesome. i would take 10 more of him if i could. sadly, it was not to be...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff, the excuse of "That's all there is around here" can be legit. In my area there are 3-4 Schutzhund clubs in a 50 mile radius. In different discussions with different members I've not found enough interest in ring to get anything going. Stubborn? Set in their ways? Don't wanna change? Who knows, but it's just gonna be one of life's mysteries here. ;-)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> at this point, i believe the only way the GSD will be saved will be to inject some other breeds blood into it (MH, HH). sure, there are still some GSD's producing good GSD's, but not enough to make a dent in the show line crap that is out there. herein lies the rub. if you start putting mal and dutchie blood in the mix in large quantities, then what becomes of all the pups? are there enough "working" homes for these dogs to goto? will they just end up in shelters because they are "problem pets"? i hope not.
> 
> my opinion of GSD's needing mal or dutchie comes almost as much from a health perspective as it does from a working perspective. i have said it before and i'll say it again, IMO, you can't beat a GOOD GSD for a working dog. they are just VERY hard to come by. i have only seen a handful of them in my time. i had one. he was awesome. i would take 10 more of him if i could. sadly, it was not to be...


Tim, I agree with your assesment about need new blood in the breed. However, can that benifit the Mal folks? Why would they do that? As you say, can they find enough good "working" homes to make it work. In actuality, how many pups out of good litters of ANY nice working breed go to working homes. How many breeder are willing to "do what's necessary" to cull litters? That's a major part of the problem. 
You can bet your sweet bippy that todays PC (BS) world would have fits over that.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I agree completely with Tim - you just can't beat a good GSD, but good luck finding one!

The problem as I see it is that people have no clue what exactly a "good GSD" is. It seems these days that everybody and their uncle has a dog who has/is extreme this or extreme that. Then I actually see the dog in person and I'm almost always unimpressed. Its to the point where I roll my eyes every time I hear the descriptive term "extreme." Then, these relatively unimpressive dogs are bred because their owners don't have any idea what a good dog really is because they haven't seen enough dogs (or enough good dogs) to make a comparison. 

If these types of people would just stop breeding dogs, the breed would be much better off. I don't see that ever happening though.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Tim, I agree with your assesment about need new blood in the breed. However, can that benifit the Mal folks? Why would they do that? As you say, can they find enough good "working" homes to make it work. In actuality, how many pups out of good litters of ANY nice working breed go to working homes. How many breeder are willing to "do what's necessary" to cull litters? That's a major part of the problem.
> You can bet your sweet bippy that todays PC (BS) world would have fits over that.


i think it can benefit the right kind of mal people. if you're a breed first person and are just looking to get the best mal possible, then no. if you're a dog first person who wants to get the best dog possible, then yes. both breeds have something to offer to the other. generally speaking, i think the mal breed has been bred with too much emphasis on prey drive and dogs are being bred with an over abundance of prey drive. the problem with that is more with livability and to the untrained eye, prey drive can mask nerve issues. the hecticness that comes from an over abundance of prey can also make tracking/trailing very difficult. i still have yet to hit my stride with my dog trailing and i don't consider him to be one of those crazy, over the top prey type dogs. just enough to make trailing difficult. i could always tell when my shepherds were "on the track" because they'd pull harder. my dog now pulls as hard as he can all the frickin time. when i try to slow him, he chokes and gasps for air telling me he's not breathing through his nose. i've tried tracking on a prong collar, flat collar, harness, and now i'm using the fur saver on the dead ring. not going real well, but seems maybe marginally better...

i think a high prey mal bred to a good, working line GSD with rock solid nerves and a tad more defense than prey in the balance system could yield some really nice dogs. assuming the pups get the best of both worlds, you'd have a dog with above average prey (but not out of control), decent defense, solid nerves, and less health problems. the problem with that uptopian dream is that you'd have dogs that couldn't compete in shows and couldn't compete in the highest levels of SchH. thus, it will never happen in large numbers. the county just north of us has a really nice shepinois. i didn't get to see a lot of him, but from what i did see, i was impressed...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK here we go again on perceptions. Yes Yes the GSD does herding. That is fine, the point you missed was perceptions. Was the first GSD you ever met a herding dog???? The first I ever met was a Chicago Police K9.

The actual test......OMG I am going to say it.......****........of Sch is fine as a test of what the GSD is. 

What is NOT fine is the repetitious crap to "create" a look, as opposed to just letting us see what the dog would do if we didn't try and create that look.

What is NOT fine, is dogs not getting titled until they are three, four years of age. WTF is going on that it takes that long??? I am also not talking about the new person.

There is no definate definition of what to strive for other than what is seen on the podium. Until that is altered, and judges start having the balls to call a junker a junker, then it is difficult.

Something else to think of, is going along with what Tim said, and if we really went out and got some "interesting" dogs, who would buy them???

As a funny side note, there are enough people here on this board to start a breeding program along these lines and to put down on film what we see as extreme, and what we would like to see be the end result of this program. One of the problems is closed breeding programs, and lack of available funds to send bitches off to be bred as well as stud fees. If we took $$$$ out of the equation, what an interesting project that would be.

I really do not see the Mal as being able to contribute to the GSD in any way. I love the Mal, but sorry, what if in the end we had the same self centered weirdos???? No thanks, drive is not the issue, character is, and the willingness to breed to the interesting dog that shows his ass at 23 place out of 70.

As far as sport, willingness to go into the unknown is not a trait that is seen in humans that much anymore. If we are not sending them off to fight in wars, then they have a tendancy to end up in jail for silly shit that we have decided now are terrible crimes, or they wander off into the wilderness. Rebellion is seen as a horrible trait, and quashed by the boring masses. (who need more laws to keep these "rebels" down)

This lack of the spirit of adventure is what keeps people from trying crazy things like bringing the working breed here in US to a decent standard. Fear of name calling seems to affect most people, and this sort of mentality is why we are getting our ass handed to us by just about every other country.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I've talked to alot of breeders over the past few months. At one point I thought some day I would like to breed dogs, so I started asking around. Questions like "how many of your dogs go to Pet homes?" and "How quickly do you sell your litters?".

My conclusion was pretty simple. "Why would I make the effort and go thru the expense of breeding the type of dog that I want to breed, if there's only a handful of people in the country that want that type of dog? Why should I breed working dogs if most of them end up in pet homes or with someone doing flyball or dock diving as their primary sport?". My Melano pups are from a litter that almost all went to pet homes. I don't understand why the breeding took place. There are even 1 or 2 pups that didn't sell yet, there were no pre-orders for the litter and the pups that went to pet homes are sold on breeding rights -- to do what? Breed them when they are older so those pups can go to pet homes too!?

I think alot of breeders are breeding a watered down version of the breed, or the "in" dogs simply so they aren't stuck with the puppies for 2 years finding them homes, and don't get the dogs returned in a year when they go to pet homes. Even if a serious dog goes to law enforcement it's no guarantee the dog will do well, it's been known to happen for dogs to be returned for being "too hard", so if you can't even sell these dogs to the police, then who the heck do you sell them to!?

Like I said before, almost everytime I talk to a GSD breeder in Europe and ask them what lines they are breeding on, they tell me "Mohnwiese". This is the "in" kennel to breed on right now. I don't know the dogs or the kennel or what they are like, but I'll bet you that if they were any good before, those lines are being watered down by a ton of breeders.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I've talked to alot of breeders over the past few months. At one point I thought some day I would like to breed dogs, so I started asking around. Questions like "how many of your dogs go to Pet homes?" and "How quickly do you sell your litters?".
> 
> My conclusion was pretty simple. "Why would I make the effort and go thru the expense of breeding the type of dog that I want to breed, if there's only a handful of people in the country that want that type of dog? Why should I breed working dogs if most of them end up in pet homes or with someone doing flyball or dock diving as their primary sport?". My Melano pups are from a litter that almost all went to pet homes. I don't understand why the breeding took place. There are even 1 or 2 pups that didn't sell yet, there were no pre-orders for the litter and the pups that went to pet homes are sold on breeding rights -- to do what? Breed them when they are older so those pups can go to pet homes too!?
> 
> ...


"watered down" isn't always bad. after going to holland, i've convinced myself that if i ever were to fulfill a dream and own a dog out of dick/selena lines, that it would have to be a tommy son out of a very sporty bitch. gregg and i saw a couple bitches like this. balls of fire with tons of prey drive and VERY handler sensitive. that would be perfect. tommy throws hard, tough dogs to even mediocre bitches. if i could temper some of that with a real sporty bitch, i think it would be about what i wanted. some might call that watered down. i call it manageable...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: I dont think you can water down Tommy


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i would have loved to see tommy while i was over there but rob was on vacation


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i agree with the ppl who basically said "who would buy/use/appreciate a working dog bred to be a working dog"??

and this is *ANOTHER* crux of the matter: in our time, who NEEDS a herding dog? who NEEDS/WANTS a dog that takes more than 10 minutes of time a day? this is what drives the market, and the market is what drives breeding. pretty simple, but not pretty.

IDK, i'm thinking that a few breeders of "true" working dogs will keep on, but the general public will never know/appreciate or utilize the real qualities of the breeds as they were originally intended. until the nuclear war/global warming/(insert your disaster here) when the dogs may be useful again....


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Did you see "Waterworld" with Kevin Kostner? Might need a dog with webbed feet, like newfoundlands, and a mutation for gills.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

ann freier said:


> i agree with the ppl who basically said "who would buy/use/appreciate a working dog bred to be a working dog"??
> 
> and this is *ANOTHER* crux of the matter: in our time, who NEEDS a herding dog? who NEEDS/WANTS a dog that takes more than 10 minutes of time a day? this is what drives the market, and the market is what drives breeding. pretty simple, but not pretty.
> 
> IDK, i'm thinking that a few breeders of "true" working dogs will keep on, but the general public will never know/appreciate or utilize the real qualities of the breeds as they were originally intended. until the nuclear war/global warming/(insert your disaster here) when the dogs may be useful again....


The problem is that me and other people who use their dogs for real work NEED GOOD DOGS! We have to wade through litter upon litter (or dozens of brokered dogs) to find what we're looking for. To me, this means too many people are out there breeding dogs just to say they bred their dog. Or, they have some clouded perspective on the abilities of their own dogs so they *think* they are breeding a good dog.

What is the fascination with producing a litter anyhow???


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't agree with Fred Lanting's idea of reaching for the "Golden Middle", but I approve of alot of his other observations about the breed.



> The breed Standard is a skeleton, and the flesh of understanding the breed can only be added by experience, intimate familiarity with the breed’s individuals, and an understanding of the history and function(s) of the breed.
> 
> One of the traditional reasons for existence of the GSD breed is the dog’s usefulness as a personal and property protector and as a working dog in such fields as military and police. To relegate the training in these areas of expertise to a handful of dogs owned by police and military forces would lead to the creation of a separate breed, a generic “police dog”, something that is happening already, with the loss of the GSD’s status in such occupations. The GSD is being supplanted by Malinois and Malinois crosses in such forces. No, it is up to the breeders and breed clubs to protect the breed, and this demands that all of us encourage preservation of the protective nature of the animal through such things as schutzhund training.
> 
> ...


There's alot of forces at work that determine why things are the way they are now, but if "courage" is lost that will be a critical failing in the overall breed IMO. If there is a better way to test the dog that more accurately reflects the "true" character of the dog without altering the standard, I'm all for it. SchH and other "sports" _should be subject_ to improving changes, just leave the standard be.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Having watched the protection phase at last years GSDCA-WDA Sieger show at Purina Farms, I can only cry for the breed. Our SchI club dogs can outperform 90% of the SchIII titled dogs I saw there. Of the 150 or so dogs entered, there were MAYBE 4-5 that I would take home. Some people on the side lines were actually praying thier dogs would bite the helpers. WTF!
Next weeked is the Sieger show at Purina again. I'm going to an obedinece trial. Lots more interesting.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

It's interesting talk, candid for sure. Fixing a problem, one first has to acknowledge there a problem. Sadly, as inspiring as this article may well be. The breeding genetic problems with the GSD is so far gone with so many breeds with in the breed now. Not sure where to start to obtain the end goal, without introducing other breed blood in. 

For those frustrated with schuzthund as a test for the dog, must relax and accept that it is really a trainers test now. I don't think in 50 years this person who wrote this will ever breed a dog quite like the ones Max had back in the day. Size wise, agility wise, intenisity wise, courage wise. There aren't the genetics left to get there.

I do appreciate his goals and drive though, I wish him well.

Bryan


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Having watched the protection phase at last years GSDCA-WDA Sieger show at Purina Farms, I can only cry for the breed. Our SchI club dogs can outperform 90% of the SchIII titled dogs I saw there. Of the 150 or so dogs entered, there were MAYBE 4-5 that I would take home. Some people on the side lines were actually praying thier dogs would bite the helpers. WTF!
> Next weeked is the Sieger show at Purina again. I'm going to an obedinece trial. Lots more interesting.


that's not uncommon in any sport. generally speaking, the higher up you go, the softer the dog becomes as a result of all the control work. when watching the KNPV championships, the PH1's far out-performed the PH2's. the PH2's were outting early, not running full speed on the call offs, etc. i don't think this is a phenomenon exclusive to SchH...


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Intressting discussion! But I don´t think the GSD needs malinois blood to "recover". It´s still a lot of working GSDs out there, not all of them have healthproblems or are weak in character. There is also a number of breeders who breeds with health and character as first priority, and not only based on the titles of the dog. I´ve tealked with a couple of breeders here in my country about the working GSD, and their opionon was at the moment there was a number of nice working GSDs, and also much being done by the breedclub when it comes to health and workingtests and similar, more than ever.
Sure the breed has it´s share of problems, but the malinois aren´t free from carachter and healtproblems either.

I know Helmut Raiser in Germany have started a new GSD club, where focus is on health and carachter. As for the article, I don´t know if the man is just negative about SCH/IPO as a breedtest, or if´t sport in general, the malinois isn´t tested in different environments, complex nosework and unfamiliars situations either, so the mal isn´t breed more for true working either what I can see. The biggest difference may be that the hard physical routines in ring/KNPV probably have led to a more robust breed when it comes to hips and such, aslo a bit higher preydrive in general.

Similar tests that the article is talking about is also used here and there, I think the new breed club in germnay also will have test where you measure the dogs behaviour in different situations, not unlike the test you can see in the some nordic countries. To have a test that measure every aspect of the dog isn´t something that can be organized on a large scale, better then to have tests that are easily performed, where many dog can be tested and 
you will test the basic character and drive needed for a working dog, then you can have something to strive for, and a tool among others to select breedingdogs that comes from sucessfull uniform litters.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree Erik. I think it's unfortunate that Dr. Raiser was not allowed to compete in the BSP or WUSV even though his dog is the 2006 winner of both events AND attained scores of 98 - 96 - 99 = 293 in his LGA. To many of us here in the states he is royalty.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Most everyone has come up with what I think is the correct answer.

No, the GSD doesn't need Mal or Duchie blood. It would not be a GSD then. The GSD is what it is. Sure they all look basically the same but they are not the same. It will depend on who you ask as to what the GSD should be. To a family man it should be this or that. The same goes for the shepherd with his flock, the show people, the working people and so on ETC...... The GSD is what it is, versatile. Is it right or wrong that a dog can be so many things to so many different people. I don't think it's wrong, I just don't like it. Does that make me right? No. As far as going through so many dogs in order to get what we want, nothing wrong with that. If you are not happy with what you have then find him a good home with someone that wants just what you have to give, or sale. People do this all the time now days with their wife or their husband. You have to get what makes you happy, dog or spouse. Educate yourself as well as you can and go find what you want.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> that's not uncommon in any sport. generally speaking, the higher up you go, the softer the dog becomes as a result of all the control work. when watching the KNPV championships, the PH1's far out-performed the PH2's. the PH2's were outting early, not running full speed on the call offs, etc. i don't think this is a phenomenon exclusive to SchH...


I realize what your saying about all the control work higher up. I don't see this as being the case. The percentage of crap bitework was way to high for it to be overtraining/poor training/to much control/etc. This was my first exposure to watching showline dogs doing bitework. Probably my last also!
There was also buzzing in the crowd about the helper putting to much pressure on the dogs.  I've seen this particular national level helper working a real trial. He was pampering these dogs at this Seiger show.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

*International Working German Shepherd Dog Club (IWGSDC)*
http://dog.co.il/gsdnew/gsdnew/iwgsdc.htm

Here is a recent off-shoot related thread on this forum with discussion of this.
Interesting Article in Mainstream Dog Press

Further details of this breed selection test has been published, in a 9 page article (in German/English) of the August 2008 issue in Das Shaferhund magazine in Germany with a host of pictures. Because of copyrights I won't be able to post that here, but I'll see if I can get the English text, for discussion purposes.


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