# training gear



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

just wanted to pass this along for anyone looking for an apron type 

i got a good deal on a HexArmor apron and like the heck out of it
- TOTALLY scratch proof
- dogs can't bite it and get any kind of grip on it
- light weight
- dirt, mud and slobber rinses off in seconds, and it' stink free

compared to my stinky old welders apron it is a million times better
...only used it one summer but i think it will last a looong time and have used what's left of the leather apron to make tugs 

don't really like the company (customer service is a joke) but like their gear


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> just wanted to pass this along for anyone looking for an apron type
> 
> i got a good deal on a HexArmor apron and like the heck out of it
> - TOTALLY scratch proof
> ...


What do you use the apron for, young pups?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Gillian :
i wear an apron quite a bit; for all size dogs

some examples besides the obvious ones : 1. when i teach recalls to front i try and really hype the dog to charge back as fast as possible and will sometimes hold the reward in plain sight at my belly button. i often don't back up, even if the dog doesn't put on the brakes fast enuff when they are starting out in training  and then sometimes i DO back up, but still wait to reward when they are practically in my navel  i do a lot of variations and sometimes pull the tug reward away at the least second so the dog doesn't start yo fixate on it, and when i'm starting to fade the reward, etc 2. when i'm teaching a dog to leave its feet to target a tug or wedge up high i don't always pivot fast enuff and catch a paw, and a LOT of people don't trim nails often enuff....and i don't do nails unless they wanna pay me to be a groomer


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I don't even use one for COOKING!
:twisted:


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

How much did your Apron cost Rick? Hex Armour products are not exactly cheap. For the price of the Apron you might as well buy scratch pants. Or for the application you use it for coveralls may suit the purpose...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I use my welder's apron for............wait for it.......................................welding! 
Only took one time catching my Levis on fire to learn that.  :grin:8-[


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've only seen one helper use it over here, albeit a good helper, but only for pups.

I don't think our insurance would cover injuries otherwise.

I've seen videos of helpers with shorts, t-shirts, etc. but I think they must be working dogs that don't bite seriously?


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've only seen one helper use it over here, albeit a good helper, but only for pups.
> 
> I don't think our insurance would cover injuries otherwise.
> 
> I've seen videos of helpers with shorts, t-shirts, etc. but I think they must be working dogs that don't bite seriously?


I dont understand..if a dog bites seriously you have to wear scratch pants, because he will nail you someplace beside the sleeve? I thpught that usually happens with bad or careless helper work ...or from young pup with out grip foundation. A serious adult ipo dog that has a lot of training in is taking the sleeve center and powerfully but if is coming off and regripping your body then there are issues and I wouldnt think scratch pants or an apron is going to fix those problems. Maybe im missing something but I think those dogs in ipo that are considered serious, bite the sleeve 99% of the time! I say wear whats comfortable for you and dont be a careless helper or if your handler cant handle dog safely then back tie. Most live bites in training are accidents on our part from what ive seen!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Not all bitework is based on IPO dogs.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Not all bitework is based on IPO dogs.


Well most I know who wear scratch pants and aprons are doing ipo! Plus you said what you have seen and you train ipo.....plus most dogs trained for serios use are trained on the suit! My point is a serious or prey orientated dog with proper training is biting the equipment he was trained to bite,ie sleeve tug pillow...and if dog is worth anything he is not coming off said equipment, and biting elswhere. As I said unless mistakes happen on either side....so either way apron or scratch pants in an accidental bite you will feel it. Other than that preference is it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think you might have forgotten the breeders who breed sport AND dogs for the army and the police.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

manny rose said:


> Well most I know who wear scratch pants and aprons are doing ipo! Plus you said what you have seen and you train ipo.....plus most dogs trained for serios use are trained on the suit! My point is a serious or prey orientated dog with proper training is biting the equipment he was trained to bite,ie sleeve tug pillow...and if dog is worth anything he is not coming off said equipment, and biting elswhere. As I said unless mistakes happen on either side....so either way apron or scratch pants in an accidental bite you will feel it. Other than that preference is it.


None of our helpers face the dogs with an apron - I don't know what sort of dogs you are used to but an apron would be useless for some of the dogs that come to training.

Do you think that all handlers who come to train their dogs have dogs that are already trained in IPO?
Some come with "raw" dogs and no helper in his right mind would wear an apron (which is what we are talking about) to face a 2 year old raw dog without the right equipment.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Aprons flap in the breeze and look more like a BITE RAG. Why would anyone wear one unless you were working puppies or very low level dogs. Scratch pants in the summer and lots of fluids. In the winter, it's bite suits and more clothes. :-k


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> None of our helpers face the dogs with an apron - I don't know what sort of dogs you are used to but an apron would be useless for some of the dogs that come to training.
> 
> Do you think that all handlers who come to train their dogs have dogs that are already trained in IPO?
> Some come with "raw" dogs and no helper in his right mind would wear an apron (which is what we are talking about) to face a 2 year old raw dog without the right equipment.


Forget I said anything.lol dont want to do a back and forth about scratch pants and aprons! Just thought if you work dogs you would understand my point. I mean we all know scratch pants will save you from that hardcore dog who always comes off the sleeve and bites you in your ankle or shin(basically the only place frontal scatch pants cover that an apron dont) and yes im being smart! i mean really...thats why equipment is made like strong collar and back tie and post! If your 2 year untrained killer is back tied and worked by someone with experience then tell me what is the difference between scratch pants or apron..(besides the fact that to work a trial you need the full pants?) is the decoy to focus dog to bite on equipment and know where he places himself or is the dog supposed to bite where it wants to bite? I have very much learning still to do but I do not think there is much difference in protection of helper, whether he wears scratch pants or apron...on a dog being trained to bite a sleeve! Proper work without accidents and all ends the same...bad work and accidents...well usually work out same.lol So in that same way I say please dont interpet quality of dog by whether helper has on pants or apron! I dont train in ipo but start tug, wedge, sleeve, with suit as end goal...so I dont mind either way. Just did not understand why you did not get my point...and why you speak of quality of dog? Good dogs are everywhere sometimes even on a feild with a helper with an apron on!lol preference THATS ALL.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Aprons flap in the breeze and look more like a BITE RAG. Why would anyone wear one unless you were working puppies or very low level dogs. Scratch pants in the summer and lots of fluids. In the winter, it's bite suits and more clothes. :-k


1. So you only work your dogs on the suit in the winter?lol
2. You dont like wearing an apron because your pups wont bite the tug or rag because the apron looks like the rag?lol(im being smart but thats what you must imply by what you wrote)
Sometimes I think people just like to write.lol
I dont post to much so I think im good for now....at least.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

manny rose said:


> Forget I said anything.lol dont want to do a back and forth about scratch pants and aprons! Just thought if you work dogs you would understand my point. I mean we all know scratch pants will save you from that hardcore dog who always comes off the sleeve and bites you in your ankle or shin(basically the only place frontal scatch pants cover that an apron dont) and yes im being smart! i mean really...thats why equipment is made like strong collar and back tie and post! If your 2 year untrained killer is back tied and worked by someone with experience then tell me what is the difference between scratch pants or apron..(besides the fact that to work a trial you need the full pants?) is the decoy to focus dog to bite on equipment and know where he places himself or is the dog supposed to bite where it wants to bite? I have very much learning still to do but I do not think there is much difference in protection of helper, whether he wears scratch pants or apron...on a dog being trained to bite a sleeve! Proper work without accidents and all ends the same...bad work and accidents...well usually work out same.lol So in that same way I say please dont interpet quality of dog by whether helper has on pants or apron! I dont train in ipo but start tug, wedge, sleeve, with suit as end goal...so I dont mind either way. Just did not understand why you did not get my point...and why you speak of quality of dog? Good dogs are everywhere sometimes even on a feild with a helper with an apron on!lol preference THATS ALL.


I have to agree with you on most points. I didn't intend to qualify a dog by whether the helper used apron or Sch. suit.

I know you don't want a back and forth about pants or no pants lol - don't forget the jacket. I think the reason one doesn't see the leather apron as much is the hindrance it is when working an adult dog (running).

If a dog became "dirty" in the blind, our helper would take the dog by gripping the it around the dog's neck and letting him know the next visit to the blind would be different.

We have all sorts of helpers - some are wary of the dog - some are not. Some helpers take bites on the skin without a murmur - others do not.

This is going a bit off topic but some handlers are proud to relate that their dog came up their arm - I wouldn't be.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian said;
"This is going a bit off topic but some handlers are proud to relate that their dog came up their arm - I wouldn't be." 

I never could understand that ego mentality of "My dog is so bad ass he''ll even bite me". :roll:
I've only had a few that even tried it...once. Even then it was more my screw up that created the issue. The dog is usually just telling us "You ****** up"!


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