# DDR dogs



## Gillian Schuler

Translated fromn a post on Leistungshundeforum:

In the DDR a different type of dog was bred, with much stronger bone. structure Very good nose potential and very serious protection work, absolutely concentrated on the service dogs to that time. These dogs were seldom “hyper” which made the training in the obedience very difficult. The then DDR GSD had very little in common with the currently described type. It is seldom that these dogs have been included in the breed as the modern world, a hard to handle, “wehrhaftig” dog would not find acceptance although this would be very necessary for the working dog character.


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## Brian Anderson

DDR <<< tough to separate fact from fiction... there is so much hype and bullshit surrounding these dogs for the sake of marketing and macho appeal ... the heroic fantasy tales attached to these dogs are probably one of the best sales gimmicks ever in dogs!


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## Gillian Schuler

The DDR dogs developed mainly during the 40 year reign as an independent breed obviously. They were mainly used as police dogs and their trials were very different from today's.

Maybe you should read about them.


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## Brian Anderson

Gillian Schuler said:


> The DDR dogs developed mainly during the 40 year reign as an independent breed obviously. They were mainly used as police dogs and their trials were very different from today's.
> 
> Maybe you should read about them.


Obviosley you wrongly assume I am not learned about the dogs...wrong..

My point is that the dogs are nothing akin to what they were then PERIOD.. they have become a favorite of wanna be working dog breeders who in reality are color breeders. They love using the DDR label and the revisionists history to promote them .. (In the US)... I recently was at a friend in Florida's who was the former head of a K9 dept in a large city there. As we looked over a literal barn full of DDR dogs he admitted that even after 26 years of breeding he cant get to the dog he wanted. That in and of itself could be argued that was his fault but I see very few that can work and stay together. JMO I am not saying there aren't any out there that can get the job done but they are few and far between relative to history


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## Brian Anderson

Brian Anderson said:


> Obviosley you wrongly assume I am not learned about the dogs...wrong..
> 
> My point is that the dogs are nothing akin to what they were then PERIOD.. they have become a favorite of wanna be working dog breeders who in reality are color breeders. They love using the DDR label and the revisionists history to promote them .. (In the US)... I recently was at a friend in Florida's who was the former head of a K9 dept in a large city there. As we looked over a literal barn full of DDR dogs he admitted that even after 26 years of breeding he cant get to the dog he wanted. That in and of itself could be argued that was his fault but I see very few that can work and stay together. JMO I am not saying there aren't any out there that can get the job done but they are few and far between relative to history


what is obvious however is my piss poor spelling and typing skills for which I apologize in advance lol


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## Gillian Schuler

The DDR dogs developed through an isolated period of 40 years. Afterwards they were bred with GDR dogs. There are no pure DDR dogs any more. 1989 put paid to it.


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## Brian Anderson

Gillian Schuler said:


> The DDR dogs developed through an isolated period of 40 years. Afterwards they were bred with GDR dogs. There are no pure DDR dogs any more. 1989 put paid to it.


Now if you could only convince the ones who keep perpetuating the lie LOL ... there are tons of examples ...I wont drop any names but they are easy to find ..


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## Edward Weiss

In a much smaller breed by numbers the the difference between DDR lines and the kennels that continue to breed within these lines is quite evidant. The pictures of Airedales i have posted are all essentially DDR lines and are adverised as such by the breeders. The dogs pictured hunting doing man work and herding are all DDR lines. This not to be meant as a take away from old American hunting lines if you can find them.
The pedigrees of pictured dogs can be easily traced show both DDR origin and the continued breeding isoften quite close among this stock
Before launching into a monologue about working vs show it is interesting what physical appearance drift is apparent in these lines. Below are two kennels a DDR and non DDR German kennel. The later has also imported American dogs.


http://www.airedaleterrier-vom-bismarckstein.de/html/rasseportrait.html

http://www.kassiopeia-airedale-terrier.de/


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## Bob Scott

The American breeders do the same thing to the Dale, Dobe, Boxer, GSD, etc. They breed for an elegant looking dog. I don't use the word "elegant" as a compliment either.


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## Katie Finlay

I see just as many working GSD breeders concerned with dark pigment, good bone, bitches that look like males... To me it seems the shows are equally as important in the working lines. All of the breeders get the breed survey and hope for their V rating!


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## Gillian Schuler

Hi Katie

Maybe you should read this:

http://www.rsv2000.de/opencms/en/ne...eding/genetische-differenzierung-des-dsh.html


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## Katie Finlay

The lines can be genetically different but that doesn't mean working line breeders aren't breeding for looks. 

I'd rather throw the breed surveys out the window and start breeding dogs that work even if they are east-west, have a little white on them and some floppy ears. But the breeders will never do that because they're still so concerned with the show ratings.


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## Edward Weiss

DDR girl just bred

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/129660/Bruni-vom-Bismarckstein


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## Erik Berg

Gillian Schuler said:


> Translated fromn a post on Leistungshundeforum:
> 
> In the DDR a different type of dog was bred, with much stronger bone. structure Very good nose potential and very serious protection work, absolutely concentrated on the service dogs to that time. These dogs were seldom “hyper” which made the training in the obedience very difficult. The then DDR GSD had very little in common with the currently described type. It is seldom that these dogs have been included in the breed as the modern world, a hard to handle, “wehrhaftig” dog would not find acceptance although this would be very necessary for the working dog character.


Maybe it´s also so that the GSD worldwide have changed a bit compared to 25 years ago due to different breedingpriorities, and nothing that is unique for DDR-dogs, quite many of the former DDR-dogs, that is when DDR was still DDR or just shortly after, have also been used in breedings outside DDR.


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## Bob Scott

When the wall went up didn't the DDR dog and the Czech dog become one and the same? At the very least wasn't there a lot of breeding between the two? 
Just asking because I've only "heard" this.


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## Ang Cangiano

A 'pure DDR' dog of today is a dog that on all lines goes back to a DDR registered dog. It may or may not be DDR in 'type' and most often is a 'pet type' dog. And, yes, you can find dogs today that go back 100% to DDR registered dogs. Are they being bred to 'DDR standard', not likely! Most people who are breeding DDR dogs today don't even know what the DDR breed survey was, or even how to read one! 

Czech and DDR are not the same, though the Border Patrol did bring in DDR dogs to diversify their breeding program, broad generalization here but they bred a different 'type' of dog than the DDR. They liked a lot of the same characteristics but brought them in a slightly different direction - think Mal and Dutchie here for a comparison.

Brian, I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, except that there are dogs today that are still 100% DDR by lineage.

Ang


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## Jim Engel

My view is that no matter how strong and good a group of
dogs is in a breeding pool, and no matter how rigorous the
community is in not bringing in outside lines, if the testing
of each generation is not at the original level then the dogs
quickly degenerate. 

So having "pure" DDR dogs which have not been tested and
selected in each generation can not be expected to retain
the original desirable attributes and qualities.

You see this in the other breeds, people selling "working lines"
that have not actually been certified in several generations.

In the early 1990s some very impressive Giant Schnauzers
came over out of eastern military breeding or police lines,
but the supply quickly dried up.

All sorts of crap was cleaned out of German kennels for
gullible Americans.

You test for it or you lose it, it is as simple as that.


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## Ang Cangiano

Jim, that's it exactly. The dogs that are currently being bred as 100% DDR may very well be just that, by lineage, but are not DDR in 'type' as the breeders are no longer breeding for the purpose they were originally designed for. They are now breeding for a 'head piece' and color as well as family companion personality, and that is the polar opposite of their original intention. So, yes, there are still 'DDR lineage' dogs, but they are no longer 'DDR type' if that makes sense. And this is in reference to German Shepherds only. 

Ang


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## Erik Berg

Ang, what type of direction differed between DDR and czech dogs, wasn´t their use basically the same? And besides the numbers, what parts did the DDR körung involve?

All GSD are from 100% german lineage from start, so to say there are 100% DDR-dogs today would be like saying other lines that also have been breed for long outside germany is still 100% german even if they could differ quite much in type and selection for many generations. Also in todays working GSDs from "west" germany there are different types, so the biggest difference between different lines are maybe not they have a specific origin, it´s what type different breeders prefer.


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## Ang Cangiano

Erik, it's like Arabian horses, they all originate from the same place, but you have different lines - Polish, Egyptian, Russian, etc. They can be bred for generations in the United States, but if they still go back to Polish lines they are Polish, back to Russian, they are Russian, yet they are all Arabians. It's the same thing with German Shepherds. Of course they all came from Germany - before the split. After the split you had DDR dogs that were bred and registered DDR. Now, if you take those dogs and breed them in the US and they go back 100% to DDR bred and registered dogs they are 100% DDR LINEAGE. Yes, DDR dogs, even during the split, were still German Shepherds, same as American Showline are still German Shepherds today. But, the intent of the breeding was different than in Western Germany. The intent of the breeding for American Show dogs is different than sport dogs today. Same breed though. 

What I'm saying is that lineage wise there are still dogs, today, that can trace back, 100%, to DDR bred and registered dogs. The intent of the breeding is different today though, so the 'DDR type' is no longer what is was. It has become pet dog breeding for the most part using the DDR mystique as a selling point. 

Similar to Dutchies in this country. You can breed generations of Dutchies that go back to KNPV lineage, they are American bred, but of KNPV lineage. They may have no KNPV certified dogs for generations, but you can still claim the lineage. Doesn't make it right, but the lineage of the dogs is what it is, even if the intent of the breeding program brings them in a completely different direction than their original lineage would suggest.

Ang


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## Gillian Schuler

Katie Finlay said:


> The lines can be genetically different but that doesn't mean working line breeders aren't breeding for looks.
> 
> I'd rather throw the breed surveys out the window and start breeding dogs that work even if they are east-west, have a little white on them and some floppy ears. But the breeders will never do that because they're still so concerned with the show ratings.


Katie, maybe in America but definitely not here in Europe. The working dogs here are known as ugly by the show judges - why would we go to show them apart from the fact that it is a useless exercise.

One of the few Working Dog GSD handlers showed her dog and its offspring (I think) and that was 2 years ago and the name has escaped me for the moment. Sue de Cicero would know. She had quite some success at Worlds.

Sue, can you oblige?


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## Louise Jollyman

I agree with Katie re the US. I am sick of seeing working line breeders talk about heads and dark sable. When I go to a breeder's website, if the first line is XXXX is a large, great pigment, big bone, gorgeous....... I close it instantly!


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## Gillian Schuler

I can tell you that in Switzerland and Germany we never look to showing the working dogs.


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## Alice Bezemer

Gillian Schuler said:


> Katie, maybe in America but definitely not here in Europe. The working dogs here are known as ugly by the show judges - why would we go to show them apart from the fact that it is a useless exercise.
> 
> One of the few Working Dog GSD handlers showed her dog and its offspring (I think) and that was 2 years ago and the name has escaped me for the moment. Sue de Cicero would know. She had quite some success at Worlds.
> 
> Sue, can you oblige?


Beauty doesn't guarantee results..

Besides, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... The better the dog works the more beautiful he gets!


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## Edward Weiss

Jim Engel said:


> My view is that no matter how strong and good a group of
> dogs is in a breeding pool, and no matter how rigorous the
> community is in not bringing in outside lines, if the testing
> of each generation is not at the original level then the dogs
> quickly degenerate.
> 
> So having "pure" DDR dogs which have not been tested and
> selected in each generation can not be expected to retain
> the original desirable attributes and qualities.
> 
> You see this in the other breeds, people selling "working lines"
> that have not actually been certified in several generations.
> 
> In the early 1990s some very impressive Giant Schnauzers
> came over out of eastern military breeding or police lines,
> but the supply quickly dried up.
> 
> All sorts of crap was cleaned out of German kennels for
> gullible Americans.
> 
> You test for it or you lose it, it is as simple as that.


Know it first hand. When the wall came down Cliff Grauviet head of Delaware state police brought 17 border and police dogs back.He purchased them from officers who no longer had a department. 
These were rangy looking dogs with very pronounced territorial drive. Pretty da*n sharp and not for general house dog use. 
Got one of the young males put a VPG 1 on him. Bred three litters of pups from these lines and they went on to be used as service dogs one with a Kentucky sherriffs dept another with a bail bondsman etc. 
The West German dogs were softer though way stronger than the stuff bred mainly out of a California kennel.My experience with this breed and regional differences they reflected may not extend to GSDs but what i see in smaller breeds conviced me its real.


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## Gillian Schuler

Alice Bezemer said:


> Beauty doesn't guarantee results..
> 
> Besides, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... The better the dog works the more beautiful he gets!


Agreed although I would say the better the dog works the more *functiona*l he gets


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> I can tell you that in Switzerland and Germany we never look to showing the working dogs.




That's not true. Every GSD, including working lines, must have a show rating in order to get a breeding license. Thus all GSDs are showlines.


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## Louise Jollyman

Gillian Schuler said:


> One of the few Working Dog GSD handlers showed her dog and its offspring (I think) and that was 2 years ago and the name has escaped me for the moment. Sue de Cicero would know. She had quite some success at Worlds.


Are you talking about Michaela Knoche and Javir vom Talka Marda?


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## Gillian Schuler

Louise Jollyman said:


> Are you talking about Michaela Knoche and Javir vom Talka Marda?


Thank you Louise, yes I am - I had a senior moment!!


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> That's not true. Every GSD, including working lines, must have a show rating in order to get a breeding license. Thus all GSDs are showlines.


Nuts!! Even if this is so, the show rating is for the Working dog irrelevant.


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## Erik Berg

Ang Cangiano said:


> What I'm saying is that lineage wise there are still dogs, today, that can trace back, 100%, to DDR bred and registered dogs. The intent of the breeding is different today though, so the 'DDR type' is no longer what is was. It has become pet dog breeding for the most part using the DDR mystique as a selling point.
> Ang


Yes, but regardless the country and selection there are dogs that differ in character, in the same country, so my point is even if a dog comes from 100% DDR lines, was their character really so much different then other dogs from that time period. A bunch of the DDR-dogs was also used in other countries quite much, so the differences between such dogs and 100% pure DDR-lines could not be too far apart.

This dog for example, is after a DDR-dog that was born not long after the wall went down, his mother also has quite much of DDR a bit back as you can see, is it a typicall DDR-dog from the past?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2e08wBPu3c

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=422340

This stud dog also has many generation in "isolation" behind him, just like the DDR-dogs was, but this doesn´t mean all dogs like him are of the same type, even if a structure like this seems not so common in german working dogs anymore, so that´s a difference different breedingselection are starting to show,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3lrqfZhWWU

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=432495

And no, showratings are not needed in sweden, wich is good because then the dogs don´t need to fit beauty fads.


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## Gillian Schuler

That would mean that each show dog line that managed to get a pinch of the sleeve in protetion would be a working dog??

It works both ways. :twisted::twisted:


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> Even if this is so, the show rating is for the Working dog irrelevant.


1. It is so

2. If it's irrelevant then why do it?


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## Erik Berg

No, it only means people who are into shows are free to do that, but people into workingdogs doesn´t need to start breeding GSDs that must be "pretty" enough, besides the more old school look with straight backs and normal angulaions are the pretty ones I think, pretty sure it´s a more healthy structure too for a working dog.


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## Christopher Smith

Erik Berg said:


> And no, showratings are not needed in sweden, wich is good because then the dogs don´t need to fit beauty fads.



This is why show ratings are relevant to the working dog.


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## Erik Berg

It´s not relevant if it nowadays is not about judging a healthy structure that affectes the work or not, or do you mean a structure like the first dog is better than the second for a workingdog?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=450116

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=437478


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## Ang Cangiano

Erik, I think we're pretty much of the same thinking here. I'm not in any way saying current "100% DDR lineage" dogs are what they were behind the wall (I actually said just the opposite I think), only that they are still 'pure' DDR from a strictly lineage view point, nothing more nothing less. I'm also not saying dogs from a different lineage, or more modern breeding, can't have similar traits to the old DDR dogs. 

Ang


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## Dave Colborn

of course working breeders breed for looks. otherwise there would just be dogs, not breeds.

I'd rather look at a gsd mal cross looking for a DP dog. you know other than accidental breedings, you probably have two exceptionally driven dogs, because looks ISNT a factor.


I wouldn't have commented here, because I care about working, not breed, but this one side or the other thing always made me wonder what people really thought was happening when the bought a working dog of a specific breed thinking looks didn't matter.


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## Christopher Smith

Dave Colborn said:


> of course working breeders breed for looks. otherwise there would just be dogs, not breeds.
> 
> I'd rather look at a gsd mal cross looking for a DP dog. you know other than accidental breedings, you probably have two exceptionally driven dogs, because looks ISNT a factor.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't have commented here, because I care about working, not breed, but this one side or the other thing always made me wonder what people really thought was happening when the bought a working dog of a specific breed thinking looks didn't matter.




There is a difference between breeding for looks and breeding for show/breed standards.


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## Dave Colborn

Christopher Smith said:


> There is a difference between breeding for looks and breeding for show/breed standards.


I made a new thread so as not to derail this one. I'd like to hear your opinion or explanation of what the difference is.


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## Howard Gaines III

Gillian Schuler said:


> The DDR dogs developed through an isolated period of 40 years. Afterwards they were bred with GDR dogs. There are no pure DDR dogs any more. 1989 put paid to it.


 Gillian I agree with the breeding and use. PURE of anything is almost never the case. Breeder who care are producing animals based on quality. Now I have contacted GSD breeders around here and most haven't a clue..."Big Boned Beauties" or "Lots of Bone" or "From Police Lines." Odd how none applies to any true standard. Form follows function...the idea behind the DDR lines as I see it.


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## Gillian Schuler

Dave Colbourn said:

of course working breeders breed for looks. otherwise there would just be dogs, not breeds.

This is idiotic unless you mean "looks" are functional constructions which I assume you don't.

Working Dog GSDs in Germany have rarely showed their dogs. One reason being that they were always considered ugly by the Show Judges. 

Why don't you read about the German Shepards? The show dogs have a "Mantel" are yellow and black. The "Mantel" is like a harness (black).

The working dogs are sable or black and black with brown markings, completely different from the show dogs. 

This has been so since about 40 years!!!!!!!!!


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> The DDR dogs developed through an isolated period of 40 years. Afterwards they were bred with GDR dogs. There are no pure DDR dogs any more. 1989 put paid to it.


if you get the time what is the differenec between the DDR and the GDR, and how or why are the DDR dogs and the GDR dogs different thanks..

I was thinking DDR WAS GDR...


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## Bob Scott

Sable is the dominant color gene in the GSD and the show folks hate it. Just one more "look" that divides the show and working lines. 
Many of us have a color preference. When I chose my dog after testing the litter there were two that were equal. One bi colored female and one sable male. Since both tested similar and I chose on a color and sex preference. 
In the show ring you VERY rarely see anything other then red and black and tan (yellow) and black saddle marked dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler

Joby Becker said:


> if you get the time what is the differenec between the DDR and the GDR, and how or why are the DDR dogs and the GDR dogs different thanks..
> 
> I must have been half asleep when I answered your post or sozzled!
> 
> DDR: Deutsche Demokratische Republic (East Germany)
> 
> BRD: (not GDR) Bundesrepublik Deutschland (West Germany)
> 
> Sorry!


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> Joby Becker said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you get the time what is the differenec between the DDR and the GDR, and how or why are the DDR dogs and the GDR dogs different thanks..
> 
> I must have been half asleep when I answered your post or sozzled!
> 
> DDR: Deutsche Demokratische Republic (East Germany)
> 
> BRD: (not GDR) Bundesrepublik Deutschland (West Germany)
> 
> Sorry!
> 
> 
> 
> thanks Gillian, but now I need to know what the GDR is, and how that differs from the DDR and BRD...
> 
> I have seen GSD advertised that say they are from GDR lines. and they always say, the RARE GDR lines, is the GDR the same as the DDR?
Click to expand...


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## Gillian Schuler

Joby Becker said:


> Gillian Schuler said:
> 
> 
> 
> thanks Gillian, but now I need to know what the GDR is, and how that differs from the DDR and BRD...
> 
> I have seen GSD advertised that say they are from GDR lines. and they always say, the RARE GDR lines, is the GDR the same as the DDR?
> 
> 
> 
> GDR (German Democratic Republic) DDR (Deutsche Demokratik Republik) one and the same.
> 
> I honestly don't know how many breeders are breeding purely from former GDR lines.
> 
> Even if they did / do so, the trials will no longer equal that used in the GDR.
> 
> I read that in the former GDR, a breeder was given a choice of about three partners to choose from. The dogs are claimed to have been heavier boned and healthier. The HD restrictings were very strict.
> 
> If I have time I will try to translate the reports from the site I took this from.
Click to expand...


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