# jinopo vs anrebri



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

which kennel produces the better "classic" czech shepherd?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

What does being "classic czech shepherd" entail?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

if you dont know, just answer which you would go to for a good dog


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

#-o[-o<](*,):roll:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> if you dont know, just answer which you would go to for a good dog


 
A good dog for me, might be a bad dog for you. 

What is a good dog for you?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> #-o[-o<](*,):roll:



hahahahahah, its just a bit of fun joby :-\"


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> A good dog for me, might be a bad dog for you.
> 
> What is a good dog for you?


to make it easy for you , lets just say a dog with high prey drive and solid nerves. now do you want to pick one?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I would dare saying that "classic czech shepherds" are not known for their high prey drive. 
In fact, I think they are known mostly for higher defense. 


No. I won't pick one, lol.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Ahh you do know ;-) but I think civil is the preferred term


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Civil is overated. I prefer a dog that bites what I tell him to bite and never loses intensity.

Many "civil" dogs are picky about what they are going to fill their mouth with.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

All civil means is a dog that will bite someone who isn't wearing protection, no country produces more or less civil dogs, what you need are magic beans to feed any dog guaranteed to make them civil monsters, and I happen to have some for sale, PM me if you're interested.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I think that Michael is forgetting one key point in all his asking questions and looking for information... 

All this information on the better pup or bloodline or dog or breeder means absolutely sweet **** all if it ends up in the wrong hands. You can look at breeds, breeders, bloodlines ...whatever! It doesn't matter what or who it is and where it comes from, put it in the wrong hands and it might never ammount up to anything worthy....


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I think that Michael is forgetting one key point in all his asking questions and looking for information...
> 
> All this information on the better pup or bloodline or dog or breeder means absolutely sweet **** all if it ends up in the wrong hands. You can look at breeds, breeders, bloodlines ...whatever! It doesn't matter what or who it is and where it comes from, put it in the wrong hands and it might never ammount up to anything worthy....


Exactly!! nicely put :smile:

Lots of good advice here from Alice,Tiago etc and Michael stop getting ya panties in a bunch over blood lines go looking for a good dog get ya money out and buy it pretty easy  

Some of the good dogs over here are a mix of lines a bit of this and that but great dogs from great individuals is what counts.

And over here i would stay away from some of the anerbri dogs just my opinion of course.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ why no anrebri ???


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm going to put a spanner in the works.

If the pup has a strong nervous costume, is physically fit and blessed with energy, even with a mediocre upbringing, surely it will survive. It may not be seen on the international sport fields but unless some brow-beating handler got hold of it, the worst it could become is an under-challenged dog??

However, it happens that new handlers are frightened of doing too much with their pup and afterwards come across a good trainer who can teach them how to handle it. 

I know of a handler who brought a Tyson von der Schiffslache bitch to our training - 3 years' old, absolutely no respect for the helper - or the handler! Charged in, wouldn't round the blinds, etc. Within one or two training sessions where our helper blasted the handler, big as he was, the bitch calmed down and got very good results.

Can a good strong pup really be ruined?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Michael, 

In your quest for knowledge, why havent you looked into west german working lines? I am sure you'd get a lot more feedback from experienced breeders and handlers here. 

Myself, I am starting a 2-3 Pike V. D. Schafbachmuhle 5 months old pup and bred a litter which is 4-3 linebred on Pike. One of the pups was sent to Holland to a KNPV trainer and the rest stayed near me for evaluation. 

They all look good so far, but I am waiting for maturity in order to see what was really produced. 


Regards


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Would love to see vid of those pups at some point Tiago, what are some of the things you are noticing with them? I remember opinions on pike were conflicting.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Michael,
> 
> In your quest for knowledge, why havent you looked into west german working lines? I am sure you'd get a lot more feedback from experienced breeders and handlers here.
> 
> ...


bahhahaahaha, i was almost thinking i had run out of questions to ask (untill i find out that the breeding was successful for my next pup, then the training questions will fill up this forum :-D) , i forgot about west german lines, but to be honest out of all the lines, have been my least favourite, too many people saying their only good for biting sleeves, but i herd pike produces some CIVIL :wink: dogs.
now i shall start learning about west german lines


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Haz Othman said:


> Would love to see vid of those pups at some point Tiago, what are some of the things you are noticing with them? I remember opinions on pike were conflicting.


They are 10 weeks old now... showing good drives, good confidence and environmentally strong. The handlers are basically doing puppy stuff (exposure, starting obedience and some rag work). 

I should have some videos in a couple of weeks. Will let you know by then. 


Take care


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> i forgot about west german lines, but to be honest out of all the lines, have been my least favourite, too many people saying their only good for biting sleeves, but i herd pike produces some CIVIL :wink: dogs.


Thats a typical comment of Czech dog proponents. To each their own.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> They are 10 weeks old now... showing good drives, good confidence and environmentally strong. The handlers are basically doing puppy stuff (exposure, starting obedience and some rag work).
> 
> I should have some videos in a couple of weeks. Will let you know by then.
> 
> ...


If you don't post any video here, please forward me whatever you get as well. I'd love to see these pups


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

No problem. I will. 

Congratulations on your pupppy, btw.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Thats a typical comment of Czech dog proponents. To each their own.


i will be asking a question on west german lines shortly :-D
stay tuned on the general discussion section


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dont be asking about Pike!! lolol


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Thats a typical comment of Czech dog proponents. To each their own.


It's a typical comment of the clueless. After reading your comments Michael, I really hope you do get a czech dog, obviously there are no other lines that could possibly meet your needs.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dont be mean to Michael, lol.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Dont be mean to Michael, lol.


I'm not, I'm completely serious. After all, his many good sources have all filled him in on the truth about West German Working line dogs, none of these lines are good enough for him, he really should stick to czech lines, nothing else will do.
:roll:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I think he mentioned getting a super hardcore KNPV line Mali pup. 

GSD's are not enough dog for him or the people who advised him.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I think he mentioned getting a super hardcore KNPV line Mali pup.
> 
> GSD's are not enough dog for him or the people who advised him.


Even better!!=D> The absolute perfect dog for him.

Good luck with that, Michael.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

german shepherd is good, but its about what i can get access to in australia, cost of importing is crazy in this country. it just so happens that the best dogs (in my opinion) in australia come from knpv lines.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Have you visited Von Forell kennels? I've heard good things about them. I dont have first hand knowledge, though.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Have you visited Von Forell kennels? I've heard good things about them. I dont have first hand knowledge, though.


do you live in australia?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Michael, I have a Pike great-great-granddaughter. She's about half WG and 1/4 Czech (goes back to Grim through Dar) and 1/4 DDR. She has some very nice dogs in her pedigree.

I used to feel the same way as you. I poo-pooed the WG dogs and wanted the Czech/DDR. To be honest, my favorite parts about her come from her WG lines and there are a lot of Cz/DDR that I wish were absent. And maybe it's the other half, but she is not remotely equipment oriented (granted, I think a lot of that comes through training). She actually tried to eat Chris Smith a few weeks ago, heheh.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

I will admit that my experience is limited as I have spent the past 30+ yrs studying german & Belgian pedigrees, importing dogs from those countries & buying pups out of other similar imports. so I have not had a lot of exposure to Czech dogs or pedigrees. for the life of me, I cannot see the attraction that some folks have to these dogs. I have met a couple of very nice dogs that I would have been proud to own & watched a few others compete that I liked very much, but I cannot put my finger on anything tangible that would cause me to abandon the german & Belgian bred dogs in favor of the Czech lines. am I really missing something here? like I said, I just don't understand the attraction to them.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ why no anrebri ???


In short over here its been health.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

patricia powers said:


> I will admit that my experience is limited as I have spent the past 30+ yrs studying german & Belgian pedigrees, importing dogs from those countries & buying pups out of other similar imports. so I have not had a lot of exposure to Czech dogs or pedigrees. for the life of me, I cannot see the attraction that some folks have to these dogs. I have met a couple of very nice dogs that I would have been proud to own & watched a few others compete that I liked very much, but I cannot put my finger on anything tangible that would cause me to abandon the german & Belgian bred dogs in favor of the Czech lines. am I really missing something here? like I said, I just don't understand the attraction to them.


That's how I feel now that I have more exposure to them. They are very beautiful dogs, but work wise there isn't anything that makes me want to search solely for Czech.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> That's how I feel now that I have more exposure to them. They are very beautiful dogs, but work wise there isn't anything that makes me want to search solely for Czech.


But...but...it says on the interwebs...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

patricia powers said:


> am I really missing something here? like I said, I just don't understand the attraction to them.


Patricia

Czech dogs are the flavor of the month. A few years ago everybody had to have a DDR Dog. Czech dogs do good because everyone has one and they tend to get worked so they do well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Both of my dogs are WG over Czech. You couldn't find two dogs that are so completely different from temperament to looks. 
I think "some" folks get way to hung up on country of origin.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I think it's important to understand bloodlines and study individual dogs equally. It does come down to the individual dog but I do think there are some generalizations that could be made in terms of what to expect if you're new.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Thats true. For me, a bloodline is important but I also like to see the dogs that produced the litter in terms of the traits they are expressing... If they are true to the bloodline or not. 

We can be linebreeding all we want on X,Y,Z dog, but if the offspring isnt expressing the traits of the ancestor you're not building prepotency... 


Regards


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ definately , the dogs first of all must be good producers, thats why i prefer buying a pup out of repeat matings. pedigree for me is important because in a puppy i cant test for certain things. for example i can test for prey drive and nerves but i cant test if the dog is going to be more social or civil, be dominant, defense drive, serious, have handler aggression. and ofcourse not all pups are going to be equal but certain lines are known for producing a larger percentage of a type of dog. As a person who prefers purchasing a pup at 8 weeks, pedigree is one of the key factors for me in choosing my pup, it helps me make an educated guess


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ definately , the dogs first of all must be good producers, thats why i prefer buying a pup out of repeat matings. pedigree for me is important because in a puppy i cant test for certain things. for example i can test for prey drive and nerves but i cant test if the dog is going to be more social or civil, be dominant, defense drive, serious, have handler aggression. and ofcourse not all pups are going to be equal but certain lines are known for producing a larger percentage of a type of dog. As a person who prefers purchasing a pup at 8 weeks, pedigree is one of the key factors for me in choosing my pup, it helps me make an educated guess


Just out of curiousity, how many puppies have you bought in your life? How many dogs have you raised? How many have you trained?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i lived in an apartment up untill 2 years ago mike, so i purchased dogs with my ex girlfriend at the time ( she had a house) and because i new they would be pets i never went for the dogs i really wanted as they usually cost about 3500 dollars for the ones i wanted (thats australia for you) 
my first dog was an australian cattle dog, i purchased him from a farmer who i was watching herding his sheep who happend to have a litter at the time, very nice dog, high drive, solid nerves, best dog i have owned so far. i trained him in obedience, and to show aggression when someone approached the door or property, but couldnt do much more then that.

second dog was a working line doberman, good drive, but the dog was scared of his own shadow.......
those two dogs are with my ex girlfriend

my current dog is a german shepherd, who umm looked OK as a pup but had a tooth ripped out when teething when someone was playing tug with him and now he only bites soft objects. but his drive was never that good , but because i had just moved into a house and i could finally purchase my own dog , i rushed into it. in hindsight i would have been more patient. i am planning on pushing him a bit in defence though, as he does have strong nerves.

and currently im waiting for a knpv female puppy, hopefully high drive and i wont ruin it. i sent you a email with the pedigree before


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Like I said, I think both are equally important. I've been told that breeding to the worst dog out of the best litter is better than breeding to the best dog out of the worst litter. I will always stay true to that philosophy as well, but a pedigree is going to give me some idea of what is _likely_ to come out of a breeding, but more importantly, it gives me information on the health of the dog.

Michael, if your dog doesn't want to bite anything other than soft objects because he had a tooth ripped out as a puppy I would not be putting any defense work on him. JMO.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Just out of curiousity, how many puppies have you bought in your life? How many dogs have you raised? How many have you trained?


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Not quite a direct quote, but.....

"I've never trained anything but some simple pet obedience...
I have no one with any real experience to teach me.....
My current dog is low drive and soft, but I'm going to push him in defence.....
I REALLY like the craziest, fire-breathing monster KNPV dogs....."

](*,)](*,)

Michael,
I mean this in the nicest way. While you can learn a lot on here and there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on here, do what others here have told you. Go train dogs. Go join your local IPO club, hang out, offer to help the decoy or the training director. I know you don't like sleeve sucker IPO dogs, but you'll learn more there than you ever will here. And if you offer to put on a sleeve, you'll be surprised how many people will bring out their retired dogs for you to learn off of.
Right now you might know a whole lot of BRN numbers to throw around, think you know all about Czech vs. WG lines, whatever. But the truth is you have zero experience with dogs like this.
For your own benefit, and the benefit of any future dog, go get some real dog experience. Cause if you get the dog you say you want, I think you're in for a serious SHOCK! And a good chance (hate to say it) that the pup ends up in a rescue/given away/PTS whatever. Sorry dude.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

i just got bitten by my dog

DAMN DAWGZ OFF THE CHAIN FB Group


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Michael,you have to trust your breeder who has bred many litters like the dogs you are purchasing to have them give you an idea of the outcome and be from top line dogs and then find a good pup out of a litter who isnt shy or scared of its shadow and raise it right.I wouldnt be blaming puppy tug work on weather your dog bites well or not.Im familiar with the lines of your dog and that breeding was a mixed bag of dogs with a couple of strong types and some not so strong it happens if he doesnt fit your bill place him in a nice home and move on.


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