# Q'Judah! des Barriques 2015 AWMA Championship



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Here's my boy Judah at the Malinois Championship. Enjoy.


https://youtu.be/6qq63D6HIko

https://youtu.be/sdS_2NoP9JI


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

VERY nice!

In particular I really liked the very tight blind search and the obvious look in each blind. 

Not as common as it should be.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> VERY nice!
> 
> In particular I really liked the very tight blind search and the obvious look in each blind.
> 
> Not as common as it should be.


Thanks Bob!


I think the reason we don't see more dogs REALLY checking the blinds is because the dogs are looking for toys or a game in the blind instead of expecting a confrontation.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks for sharing.. congrats

nice!!! I enjoyed watching it


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thanks Joby. I'm glad you enjoyed watching it. I really see the trial as a "show" and that's a great complement.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Thanks Bob!
> 
> 
> I think the reason we don't see more dogs REALLY checking the blinds is because the dogs are looking for toys or a game in the blind instead of expecting a confrontation.


I agree. We place the helper in blind 2-5 - ever changing.

I like the dog. I like the way you have trained him to be so focused but not letting him lose his abundant energy and drive.

I am not so fond of the heeling but this isn't a criticism. I've watched GSD's on here heeling perfectly but with their backside cleaning the ground. They are anatomically not made for this and it looks ridiculous. A GSD can offer a good heeling without copying the Malinois.

The Malinois can also heel well without the "twisted neck syndrome" 

However, for me is focus on handler and on helper important - the other is "cosmetic".


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

it was a great performance and i enjoyed watching. BZ to both of you

you seem to be implying some people leave toys in a blind rather than a helper to teach a look. that would seem stupid to me but i don't do IPO so my opinion isn't worth much //lol//

a "game" vs a "confrontation" is not as clear. before commenting with an even more worthless opinion, could you elaborate ?


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Nice routine Chris.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What is the Definition of "nice"?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Nice means good Gillian. I get what you are saying about the heeling. I think that heeling is one of the few areas that you can show some artistic expression. Thanks for the compliment.

Thanks John.

rick ...Game vs Confrontation: A game is where the dog is coming into the blind thinking that there will be a toy given to him or the helper will play tug o war if he barks. A confrontation is where the dog is expecting to fight a dangerous opponent and he protects himself by using his barking to dominate his opponent.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i've watched 20-30 training sessions over here and when they are training a dog to run blinds there is never someone in a blind with a toy or tug who rewards the dog for stopping and doing a B/H. only helpers wearing an IPO sleeve. and sometimes there are more than one blind with a helper

guess it's different in the states, assuming that's where you live, but still don't see how you create the confrontation aspect with a stationary decoy unless you were going to give the dog a bite from the blind every now and then. do you do that ?

no biggy, i just don't get the training style you are referring to


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Of course there is the chance that the dog knows where the decoy is the moment he gets on the field because of his nose?

T


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i've watched 20-30 training sessions over here and when they are training a dog to run blinds there is never someone in a blind with a toy or tug who rewards the dog for stopping and doing a B/H. only helpers wearing an IPO sleeve. and sometimes there are more than one blind with a helper
> 
> guess it's different in the states, assuming that's where you live, but still don't see how you create the confrontation aspect with a stationary decoy unless you were going to give the dog a bite from the blind every now and then. do you do that ?
> 
> no biggy, i just don't get the training style you are referring to


Yes dogs get grips in the blind during practice.

Nope, it's no different in the states, some people train a blind search with a toy some don't, this is a big country and there are different training methods and philosophies from one club to another, from one dog to another, no one size fits all no one right way for all dogs or all helpers or all handlers. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Of course there is the chance that the dog knows where the decoy is the moment he gets on the field because of his nose?
> 
> T


Yes, the dog knows for sure, which makes a good blind search all the more impressive, it's an ob exercise.



*CHRISTOPHER: GREAT WORK, YOU GUYS ARE GOOD TEAM, CONGRATULATIONS!*
8)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thanks Sue!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Of course there is a chance the dog knows where the decoy is sometimes. That still does not mean there are not other helpers on the field.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

rick...Yes the dog bites in the blind. But it's an important part of my early training that the dog believes that the still helper is the most dangerous Helper.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Very nice, thanks for sharing...88 seemed like a mighty sharp pencil for that protection routine. I love the powerful, demanding bark during guarding.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We always had helpers randomly in different blinds.

One problem I had initially was, coming from SAR with my dog Thunder he would ignore empty blinds that were up wind from him. That was even if the blind was occupied when the previous dog ran it. 

Once he was taught to run empty blinds then no more problem.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Here's a good example of a dog learning to come into the blind looking to play a game.

https://youtu.be/KYaWwnrTI8Y


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Here's a good example of a dog learning to come into the blind looking to play a game.
> 
> https://youtu.be/KYaWwnrTI8Y



BUT! Once the dog learns the "game" it's the job of a good helper to make it "real" for the dog. 

The helpers "randomly in the other blinds" wont come into the picture until it's developed in blind six. 

If the dog looks around for the handler while in the B&H the helper lets it know that looking around has consequences. 

How does the helper handle a dog looking around in traditional B&H training?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I like the way he never bumped the decoy. And the tail never stopped wagging. Clearly likes what he's doing.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> BUT! Once the dog learns the "game" it's the job of a good helper to make it "real" for the dog.


I think it's very important to condition the dog from the beginning to look for a confrontation. The conditioning needs to hold up for life. 

Also, why would I train with a ball if I'm going to have to use the helper anyway? What's the advantage? 



> The helpers "randomly in the other blinds" wont come into the picture until it's developed in blind six.


Not the way that I train. I can do it with any number of blinds. 



> If the dog looks around for the handler while in the B&H the helper lets it know that looking around has consequences.
> 
> How does the helper handle a dog looking around in traditional B&H training?


I don't understand what traditional training is. What do you mean?

And remember we are talking about the dog coming into the blind. Not what the dog does when he gets there.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Also, why would I train with a ball if I'm going to have to use the helper anyway? What's the advantage?" 

I believe a dog can start the work at a much younger age without so much pressure. 



"Not the way that I train. I can do it with any number of blinds. "

By "randomly on the other blinds I simply mean that ANY blind can be used but until the dog understands the B&H I wouldn't use the other blinds yet.

"I don't understand what traditional training is. What do you mean?"

"Traditional for me means little to no rewards other then a bite. The ultimate reward!

All of what I did with my dog is no more then another option for training. I've said in MANY post that I would have no problem whatsoever in adding corrections to these training methods when done now. 

I applaud your obvious skills at what you've done with your dog(s). What I've done is nothing more then a choice. It worked for me and others at the club I belonged to and I'm very satisfide with the results.

Will I train the same way with any future dogs? 95% probability. That 5% depends on the dog not the method itself. 

At my age, 70 this yr, chances are the next dog will be another terrier of some sort. 
The GSD health issues scare me. I've tried 2 different Mals and I couldn't put up with the environmental issues. 

Excellent in drive but sucked in everyday life. Never kept on more then a few months

Yes, I do know there are some excellent ones out there

I've done marker training for almost 12 yrs now. Again, I'm more then satisfied with the results but the 45 -50 yrs training methods previous to that will always be in my training tool box and no doubt will be used if needed.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Please don't think that I believe that your way doesn't work. I know it works and have trained dogs like that in the past. I just don't find that it works better than what I'm doing. 

I think that part of the problem is the difference in the way we view the exercise. I believe that for optimal results the exercises should be taught with the dog in the drive/mood that he will use in the final product. It simple classic conditioning.

The picture I want to present is a beast on the edge of going out of control, yet when commanded is under absolute control. I like to hear the audience whispering and anticipating control problems. Using toys won't get me what I want.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Oh, and why do you care if your dog runs blinds at a young age and without pressure?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Loved it dude! :mrgreen:


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

thought it all looked fantastic--you should be very pleased!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Oh, and why do you care if your dog runs blinds at a young age and without pressure?



I think running the blinds is nothing more then an obedience exercise. Why not make it fun for the dog in the beginning training. If the dog has what it takes to work a man then that will easily be added.

I don't think the actual running is something that needs pressure. Why not make it what it is. A means to and end and that end being the bite (in training). 

In sport the blind running is nothing but an obedience exercise. In the real world it's scent work in order to find the victim or bad guy. 

I believe that any dog experienced in sport realizes that the first 5 are empty. Trust me. I went through that starting out with my SAR dog. 

I look at marker training more Like I'm imprinting the dog opposed to training the dog. 

I expect a dog to be able to sit, down, come, minimal stay by the time it's 12-14 wks old. With markers the dog is doing it all for reward. 

My 13 yr old grandaughter is doing this now with her 3-4 month old Pap x Pom puppy and they are going great. The beginning reward was treats and now the pup is being rewarded with a tug. 

Obviously not going to be a bite trained dog but the method is allowing a LOT more learned behaviors with a pup that was/is to young for the pressure of corrections. If/when needed the corrections can be at a lower lever to get response simply because the dog understands the exercise. 

Just as obvious is a "good" IPO dog needs to be able to fight under pressure from the helper. 

The age where pressure is added to the dog is determined by the individual dog. Why not get a ton of imprinting in before the training starts. If the dog is started with marker training the level of correction will be lower at a later point simply because the dog already understands the behavior. 

I'm not trying to change anyone that has a method that works well for them but give the above a bit of thought. It's nothing more then a choice and nothing to do with "my way is better" as I DO think many of the motivational "trainers" believe. I'm not in that category. :wink:

Gotta go. Hopefully back this evening.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Christopher obviously implied his way was better because he wants an IPO dog to show more “on the edge” aggression when barking and doesn’t like the way a lot of dogs bark in a blind because to him it is more of a play bark

in my opinion the BB vid had nothing to do with running blinds and checking to see if it was empty or not. it was all about developing a consistent bark when it was in front of the blind and how to build that up. he only briefly touched on the reward bite but did say it comes later in the game.
- most of his comments were his typical sarcasm and joking way he talks when he gives a seminar, and even tho he has great timing it was clear the handlers didn’t 
- Bart also clearly implied this method woks best when a dog already has high ball drive, whereas Christopher will say the dog needs “confrontation drive” .. i get it and both will work 

but the bottom line is when a dog is flying around empty blinds, is it “checking” the blind or just running laps ??

i have watched enough IPO trials to see that dogs are rarely penalized for running laps and the degree they actually check a blind is a minor point. since dogs do have periferal vision it is hard to criticize it too much.
- for me, IPO would be more interesting to watch if the helper is randomly placed but that would complicate both the game and the scoring and it aint gonna happen 

i appreciate those who want to keep the aggression factor in IPO, but i don’t like the way some people say that the “game perspective” is degrading the sport

How much Christopher's methods also conform to marker training would have to be spelled out in the same way Bob explained his training process, but i think it is obvious he doesn't feel much need to start training as play in the way Bob described

overall
it probably doesn't matter if you are lucky enuff to get a pup with the genetic aggression you are looking for in your finished product. you CAN start them young in my opinion

my .02 and probably worth just as much


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher and I have had discussions on these subjects in the past and I don't recall either of us claiming one is better or worse for everyone. 

Checking the blinds and looking is what I saw and commented on how it isn't seen enough. 

It's what I saw in the video and not what I think the dog should be doing. I've also heard judge's comments on a dog not looking in the blinds and judges commenting and approving of the dog's that do look in the blind.

I've seen dogs run by a blind WITH a helper in there simply because their training didn't take into consideration that "looking in" was something some judges look for. The better ones do but that's JMHO!

To "me" it's the dogs that run wide that are more prone to pass a blind with a helper in it. 

The tight turn and the dog that does want confrontation is much less likely for this to happen and "my" thoughts were starting young in most any behavior and building aggression as the dog matures will work.

Christopher chooses to do it differently. Those choices are what makes a dog training "discussion" and not turn it into a "No, your wrong and I'm right". I believe that's what closes most good training "discussions". 

I try and answer/ask questions without telling the person they are wrong. Wrong for who?! 

This is what this site should be about.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

just to clarify what i have posted ...
i never said either person "CLAIMED" one way was better or not 

i said Christopher IMPLIED his way (dog looking for confrontation) was better for him than using toys and/or balls ... for HIS preferred type of dog - which he further explained as a dog that gives the impression it is almost over the edge, that the handler was almost losing control of, etc etc 

strictly a discussion of using toys or other rewards before a bite is used, or not, and the different approaches to doing it with a younger dog, since ALL posters on this thread have agreed a bite is a given part of the B/H training (whether it's sooner or later)

if using balls as a foundation produced whimpier B/H's, Bart Bellon would not get as much credibility or business as he does ;-)
- which is probably why he thinks HIS system IS "better" //lol//


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Using that logic, the cast of Glee has had more songs on the charts than the Beatles so they have more credibility. :mrgreen:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> but the bottom line is when a dog is flying around empty blinds, is it “checking” the blind or just running laps ??
> 
> i have watched enough IPO trials to see that dogs are rarely penalized for running laps and the degree they actually check a blind is a minor point. since dogs do have periferal vision it is hard to criticize it too much.
> - for me, IPO would be more interesting to watch if the helper is randomly placed but that would complicate both the game and the scoring and it aint gonna happen
> ...


It "aint gonna happen" because it would defeat the purpose of the 6 blind search. The blind search portion is an obedience exercise, the dog knows the man is in blind 6, yet he must still purposely search each blind he is directed into.

During training, many times the helper or multiple helpers will be in different blinds because this is teaching the dog correct behavior, we want him to actively look into each of the blinds.

At club level there may be judges who ignore a dog who is making wide sweeping turns and not actively looking into each blind, but that's incorrect judging and I've seen teams be penalized at the club level (more often than not), and always at higher levels. The amount of points taken will be higher the higher the level, club trial less so than regional, national, international. 

As far as treating schH as a game and teaching all exercises as play, I agree with Christopher 100%, this is not a game, though it is a sport. Dogs are to exhibit prey drive and aggression, dogs are too be stressed and then judged accordingly, teaching everything as if it's a game most certainly does detract and degrade from the purpose and the sport. It's a free world and if someone wants to treat it as a game and have their dog learn everything through play and bark for the toy that's on them and their prerogative, no skin off my nose, but it is not what schutzhund is supposed to be or ever was, and personally I would rather die than train like that...but that's just me.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> if using balls as a foundation produced whimpier B/H's, Bart Bellon would not get as much credibility or business as he does ;-)
> - which is probably why he thinks HIS system IS "better" //lol//



Bart Bellon is catering to the masses in my mind. The masses being the paying public who wants a dog that can do Schutzhund but that is as soft and woolly as its owner. That brings in the dollars.

It's a sign of the times. It would not be possible now to give seminars, weekend trainings, etc. for the type of dogs that existed about 20 years ago. The Gurus want to give seminars to collect the cash but they can't do this with the type of dog that doesn't "play" at Schutzhund. The handlers have become more numerous and many of the handlers couldn't handle a dog that showed aggression to the helpers or themselves!!

The breeder of our dogs took over such a dog for a while and worked him himself. At one point his partner said he could collect the dog himself from the truck. The dog came into the hide full of aggression but controlled. 

The question of whether a training with a ball is better or not will eventually be seen in the pretty dog in the obedience section but who also dances in protection in front of the helper.


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