# Stalking behaviors/helper transport/awareness while focusing on helper



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm currently teaching mine to basically heel with contact on my leg, and eyes on the helper. Pushing the dog into your leg seems makes a switch go off into stalking verses just "doing whatever is required trying to get paid". Got a good clip of it over the weekend. You can see the distinct change in behavior when I push him into me after he wasn't giving it to me himself

So how do you teach the back transport (or stalking, or watch the helper)? How do you address the left turn if the dog isn't watching you? Do you ask your dog to heel (focus on you) or no?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCq2drY10r4


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When the helper turns left then you turn right. If you use corrections in your training that's the time. 
If the dog does keep eye contact then reward with a bite. 
This takes a lot of discussion/coordination with the with the helper, TD and you for it to work. 
Make a lot of random turns. The dog learns quickly that the bite comes after the left turn.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> When the helper turns left then you turn right. If you use corrections in your training that's the time.
> If the dog does keep eye contact then reward with a bite.
> This takes a lot of discussion/coordination with the with the helper, TD and you for it to work.
> Make a lot of random turns. The dog learns quickly that the bite comes after the left turn.


You have the helper turn left and the dog/handler turn right and the dog should still maintain eye contact? As in, the dog is looking behind himself? 

I've used low stim initially to keep the dog in contact with me so he knows very clearly where I am without looking at me. With one dog this works great in left turns. The other not so much. In either case we rarely follow any prescribed pattern for the reason you mentioned


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hunter Allred said:


> You have the helper turn left and the dog/handler turn right and the dog should still maintain eye contact? As in, the dog is looking behind himself?
> 
> I've used low stim initially to keep the dog in contact with me so he knows very clearly where I am without looking at me. With one dog this works great in left turns. The other not so much. In either case we rarely follow any prescribed pattern for the reason you mentioned


My bad! I re read your post. Your working on eye contact WITH the helper and not on you. 
Again then just reward when the dog holds correct eye contact on the helper. 
If the dog looks away I would give a verbal NOPE and turn away. 
A correction just for not keeping eye contact on the helper could possibly make the dog try and stay focused on you. 
Admittedly I've not worked on this particular issue of keeping eyes on the helper during a transport but I would think random attacks from the helper would take care of that. Dog looks away and BAM! The helper attacks. 
Again that would require a discussion with the TD, helper and you in order to get signals straight.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> My bad! I re read your post. Your working on eye contact WITH the helper and not on you.
> Again then just reward when the dog holds correct eye contact on the helper.
> If the dog looks away I would give a verbal NOPE and turn away.
> A correction just for not keeping eye contact on the helper could possibly make the dog try and stay focused on you.
> ...


Small & new club. I am frequently filling all those roles lol.

Basically that is what I do. I'm not correcting for looking at me, just ignoring it and not looking back, and pushing the dog against my leg if ignoring isn't getting the focus elsewhere. The only corrections I'm giving is breaking contact with my leg. My bitch is a bit more drivey... like a mal, so I've mostly had the helper stand still and we only make forward progress when I'm getting what I want, or we stay still and the helper moves forward when I'm getting what I want. The latter takes more coordination with the helper, and since I'm the club helper and I have to grab someone to fill that role, I can only do that when I've got someone who actually has some experience on hand.

Just trying to explore if there were any nifty techniques I've not yet discovered or heard about.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don't lean over the dog. It creates a different picture of what you'll do at a trial. I start the back transport like a Mondio Defense of handler. Decoy facing dog at ~10-15 feet. Decoy makes one obvious step forward. You make a step back and to the side and pop the dog with the prong/tab. As soon as the dog makes contact with your leg you send for a bite. You can use an e-collar placed on the left side of the neck on a low level but be careful.
Eventually you can fade the leash pop when the decoy steps forward and the dog will lean into your leg on his own. For the DOH you have the decoy approach and the "hit" is the trigger to bite. Then the decoy circles and you use the tab/prong to encourage the dog to maintain contact with your knees, right thigh and behind the legs as the dog circles you.
For the back transport, use a prong and tab and "correct" the dog from forging but without asking for any kind of eye contact. Michael Ellis leash pressure exercises really help here.
I like to re enforce the looking at the decoy instead of a focused heel with the phrase "move out" (like in step back, turn around move out) When the dog is in the proper position and leaning into your leg. Have the decoy (who is walking backwards like in your video) raise the stick as a signal to attack, at the same time touch the dog on the back/left side of the spine which in most dogs will cause him to look straight
ahead (opposition reflex?) and see the decoys signal to attack


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Admittedly I've not worked on this particular issue of keeping eyes on the helper during a transport but I would think random attacks from the helper would take care of that. Dog looks away and BAM! The helper attacks.


Be careful with this. With the right (wrong?? LOL) dog this will actually teach them to look away to trigger the attack and bite. Been there, done that ](*,)

I prefer to have another person with a line on a flat collar or harness, and if the dog looks away the helper takes off running, the back line person's only job is to prevent the dog from getting a bite. IF needed the helper stays just out of range teasing the dog, then the handler tells the dog to sit, helper steps back into position, and we do it again. Good focus on the helper and the dog gets a reward bite.

I teach my dog a "lets go" type heel before introducing the helper, it's a less formal, you don't have to focus on me but you have to stay next to me, type of heel. This translates well into this exercise. I also teach them focus work with someone else, while they sit by me (ie the other person tells them "look", and rewards when they do). I would suggest starting it before you have to many miles of "all good things come from focusing on me" training into the dog, or it just makes it harder to make them understand that in this situation, looking at me isn't going to get them the reward.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don't lean over the dog. It creates a different picture of what you'll do at a trial. I start the back transport like a Mondio Defense of handler. Decoy facing dog at ~10-15 feet. Decoy makes one obvious step forward. You make a step back and to the side and pop the dog with the prong/tab. As soon as the dog makes contact with your leg you send for a bite. You can use an e-collar placed on the left side of the neck on a low level but be careful.
> Eventually you can fade the leash pop when the decoy steps forward and the dog will lean into your leg on his own. For the DOH you have the decoy approach and the "hit" is the trigger to bite. Then the decoy circles and you use the tab/prong to encourage the dog to maintain contact with your knees, right thigh and behind the legs as the dog circles you.
> For the back transport, use a prong and tab and "correct" the dog from forging but without asking for any kind of eye contact. Michael Ellis leash pressure exercises really help here.
> I like to re enforce the looking at the decoy instead of a focused heel with the phrase "move out" (like in step back, turn around move out) When the dog is in the proper position and leaning into your leg. Have the decoy (who is walking backwards like in your video) raise the stick as a signal to attack, at the same time touch the dog on the back/left side of the spine which in most dogs will cause him to look straight
> ahead (opposition reflex?) and see the decoys signal to attack


I started teaching the contact similar to what you said at the start minus the decoy moving. I would command "transport", pause and then step back and away, low stim goes on when contact is lost, goes off when contact is reestablished. We sorta worked in a circle around the decoy in this way.

I use a double boxed ecollar with my male for most corrections. it is our clearest, lowest conflict method of talking. I've debated switching one box back to the other button so I can "steer" but fear my learning curve will derail things at first.

I'm not clear on the DOH you're describing. Specifically what you meant by "hit", and the motion after that... is the dog on the decoy but still maintaining contact with the handler? I'm trying to visualize this, but I have zero ringsport experience.

Yeah I didn't notice I was leaning over till you pointed that out. Will have to remind myself not to do that. The focus he was giving me was him just throwing a behavior trying to figure out how to get released.

I've got a bowwowflix account. Any idea which Ellis dvd speaks to leash pressure?

Thanks for the input!


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hunter Allred said:


> I started teaching the contact similar to what you said at the start minus the decoy moving. I would command "transport", pause and then step back and away, low stim goes on when contact is lost, goes off when contact is reestablished. We sorta worked in a circle around the decoy in this way.
> 
> I use a double boxed ecollar with my male for most corrections. it is our clearest, lowest conflict method of talking. I've debated switching one box back to the other button so I can "steer" but fear my learning curve will derail things at first.
> 
> ...


Leash pressure is mentioned on a couple of the Ellis DVD's but mainly Focused heeling. The mondio Ring DOH "hit" is a two handed hit from the decoy and in MR it can come at any point while you're doing various things at the command of the decoy.
Standing, sitting, carrying stuff whatever. Unlike the French Ring DOH which is always the same. Once the decoy makes the hit the dog is free to bite and not maintain contact. In fact in MR once the hit is made the handler must stay at least a meter away from the dog/decoy. As far as 2 receivers. I would stick with one on the left side of the neck to "force" the dog into your leg. Multiple boxes coded to different buttons would be too complicated IMO


----------



## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Many ways to train the Back transport. One way I was taught is you have the handlers begin teaching the exercise at home with less stimulation and with out the helper. Having a bite wedge, tug, ball, food ect...on the ground or on a chair and have the handler with the dog taking a few steps toward your reward of choice. When correct, handler gives a little knee bump and word to associate the release for the reward. Your have to be clear what you are trying to accomplish which is positioning not heeling. Transport and heeling are two different things. Gradually building the distance and once you can get consistently multiple steps.. bring the helper into the situation.

You can start dogs as young as 6 months... only 5 mins a day, it is a game, a drill for them.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's a video that Denise Fenzi posted on her blog today
http://denisefenzi.com/2013/02/11/what-am-i-teaching/
starting to teach the DOH with a ball


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi said
"Be careful with this. With the right (wrong?? LOL) dog this will actually teach them to look away to trigger the attack and bite. Been there, done that" ](*,)

Agree 100% Timing is everything here.
This why I like markers so much. 
Obviously Schutzhund is different but this is how our Sch dogs got rewarded with the bite in back transport, etc. Without the eye contact with the handler the dog gets nothing. That's the ultimate reward and they can burn a hole in you with their eyes once they get the idea. ;-)


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Obviously Schutzhund is different but this is how our Sch dogs got rewarded with the bite in back transport, etc. Without the eye contact with the handler the dog gets nothing. That's the ultimate reward and they can burn a hole in you with their eyes once they get the idea. ;-)


Different, but not different  I've actually done more of this training Sch dogs then Ring dogs, for some reason many of the FR decoys I've worked with are against the idea of obedience for the bite, one actually told me it was beneath him to stand on the field and be my dogs reward for obedience, I should just use a tug. Not those exact words, but that was the gist of it. :roll:

My comment was referring to having the helper attack if the dog breaks eye contact with him, and how with some dogs that will teach them to look away, vs maintain better eye contact. I'm currently working with a similar issue with my young dog in the guard of object, he figured out if he turns his back on the decoy they rush in to smack him with the stick or whip and come within legal biting distance. So now he "taunts" them by turning his back to try to trigger them to rush him, then whirls around and bites. ](*,) What can I say, he's a smart cookie :lol:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol:That's got to be funny to watch........unless it's your dog. :wink: 
Do your dogs do that walking backwards thing during a transport? I could easily see a dog trying to blend that together with heeling.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> :lol:That's got to be funny to watch........unless it's your dog. :wink:
> Do your dogs do that walking backwards thing during a transport? I could easily see a dog trying to blend that together with heeling.


He walks with his head between the decoys legs in the escort, so sometimes he's walking backwards and sometimes he's walking forwards depending on the direction he's facing vs the direction the decoy is going. We have another dog that walks in front of the decoy looking up at them and barking, so he spends a lot of time walking backwards.

When Ares was young I taugt him to go between my legs to start the basics of the escort, but then I did run into a problem where he kept trying to leave heel position and go between my legs when heeling, so we had to stop doing that. #-o

Even more fun was a club members now retired dog, who was doing both Sch and Ring. Imagine the look on the Sch helpers face when during a transport the dog suddenly jumped between his legs and started escorting him there, barking up at him LOL


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The joys of cross training! :lol:


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Different, but not different  I've actually done more of this training Sch dogs then Ring dogs, for some reason many of the FR decoys I've worked with are against the idea of obedience for the bite, one actually told me it was beneath him to stand on the field and be my dogs reward for obedience, I should just use a tug. Not those exact words, but that was the gist of it. :roll:
> 
> My comment was referring to having the helper attack if the dog breaks eye contact with him, and how with some dogs that will teach them to look away, vs maintain better eye contact. I'm currently working with a similar issue with my young dog in the guard of object, he figured out if he turns his back on the decoy they rush in to smack him with the stick or whip and come within legal biting distance. So now he "taunts" them by turning his back to try to trigger them to rush him, then whirls around and bites. ](*,) What can I say, he's a smart cookie :lol:


 
Have you ever heard of a valid reason not to do OB for bites? Seems like being able to have the reward on the field in a trial is a good thing, vs dropping it in the parking lot or on deck area.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> Have you ever heard of a valid reason not to do OB for bites? Seems like being able to have the reward on the field in a trial is a good thing, vs dropping it in the parking lot or on deck area.


Nope. Have heard various invalid reasons, which seem to ultimately boil down to the helper/decoy just doesn't want to, they just don't want to stand out there, paying attention, and be ready for the handler to send the dog at any time for a reward.


----------



## Dana Miller (Nov 23, 2010)

I trained the back transport with my dog leaning into my leg and looking at the helper. It was cool, but Marco thought if a little was good a lot was better and it quickly became more than I was physically able to handle. As the exercise progressed without a reward he leaned harder and harder into my leg to the point where I could barely walk. I suspect few people have dogs that think and work this way, and the results are really pretty if you are bigger than your dog and it doesn't get out of hand. So, in case you want to do this...

As Mario said, I started at home with my dog in basic position and a toy about 30 feet away. I gave my dog a hand signal to "look" retriever style (which he already knew from food) and when he looked I sent him. Then I gave the signal with the side of my arm pushing into his neck and face. When he resisted the pressure I sent. Then I pushed with my leg while signaling and saying "look" and sent when he pushed back. Then I started taking very small slow steps forward and easing to my right and sent when he pushed in to the leg. I didn't say anything when I moved bc most commands would cause him to look at me. Once he got it, I introduced the command "transport". As he improved I moved at a more normal pace and started using a helper. 

This really was very easy to teach and I think most dogs would prefer to look at the helper during the transport and now the schutzhund rules call for this. Teaching it really is easy, you just have to show the dog that you want body contact. If anyone else is doing this I'd be interested to hear how it goes.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Have you ever heard of a valid reason not to do OB for bites?





Dana Miller said:


> I trained the back transport with my dog leaning into my leg and looking at the helper. It was cool, but Marco thought if a little was good a lot was better and it quickly became more than I was physically able to handle. As the exercise progressed without a reward he leaned harder and harder into my leg to the point where I could barely walk.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Dave Colborn*  
_Have you ever heard of a valid reason not to do OB for bites?_



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Dana Miller*  
_I trained the back transport with my dog leaning into my leg and looking at the helper. It was cool, but Marco thought if a little was good a lot was better and it quickly became more than I was physically able to handle. As the exercise progressed without a reward he leaned harder and harder into my leg to the point where I could barely walk._



Christopher. I said a valid reason not to do it. This is a valid reason to reward what you want, not what you get. This is like a pet dog puppy learning to bite your arms. "Ohhh. this is cool and so easy to teach. Training is going so well....Ohh, he is heavy but he does this so well..ohhh...this is starting to suck I need a trainer to fix this..... 

She rewarded the wrong bevavior. Operant conditioning. Her dog isn't special. She rewarded something she didn't want to a degree she didn't want. This is like any behavior that goes to far. Guarding comes to mind. Have to teach what you want or not be surprised when you get what you trained. I bet the same dog would have learned that for a tug or food.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Dave Colborn*
> _Have you ever heard of a valid reason not to do OB for bites?_
> 
> ...


It was not about the dog getting rewarded at the wrong time. It's about the dogs prior training and how he was taught that if he did not get a reward that he should do the behavior in a more extreme manner and this was magnified when the reward was more desirable. 

Bites for obedience can also causes problems with dogs that are already very obedient and don't have strong drives for protection. So you take a dog like that and teach it the back transport with obedience for bites. Some of them can't switch the obedience off quickly and strong fighting drives. So when the helper attacks the dog is hesitant, weak and the grip suffers. 

But then again Dana and I are probably just stupid and don't know what we're talking about so disregard everything I said. :lol:


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> It was not about the dog getting rewarded at the wrong time. It's about the dogs prior training and how he was taught that if he did not get a reward that he should do the behavior in a more extreme manner and this was magnified when the reward was more desirable.
> 
> Bites for obedience can also causes problems with dogs that are already very obedient and don't have strong drives for protection. So you take a dog like that and teach it the back transport with obedience for bites. Some of them can't switch the obedience off quickly and strong fighting drives. So when the helper attacks the dog is hesitant, weak and the grip suffers.
> 
> But then again Dana and I are probably just stupid and don't know what we're talking about so disregard everything I said. :lol:


Chris, 

re-read what you wrote. The dog was rewarded at the wrong time. He was rewarded when he added more pressure vs. not. just like rewarding an attention heel when the dog is not looking.

I am not talking about training a pet dog that doesn't want to bite, to do a back transport. If I had a working dog that wouldn't bite well out of obedience, I'd still do it to train the dog through his shortcoming. This seems like a drive channeling issue that would pop up elsewhere. 

Back your decoy up, Chris, if the dog can't switch quick enough. go to a hundred yards with your helper and then move him in a little at a time. 

More importantly for Dana is finding a solution now. 

It's not that I don't think a bites for OB causes problems with some dogs, I think that this is a bad example. I also think that most dogs can do it, people make excuses because they don't like it for one reason or another.

I read what is presented. I put it up against what I know to be true then make an opinion. I don't listen to british newscasters and believe them because they have a cool accent. The words have to make sense. Yours as much as anyone elses. And it doesn't make you stupid or me want to disregard you. Instead I'd rather prove it or disprove it when I have a chance. Either I am wrong or right. What I am doesn't affect anyone but me, truly.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dana found a solution...the dog died a couple of years ago at 12years old.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Chris,
> 
> re-read what you wrote. The dog was rewarded at the wrong time. He was rewarded when he added more pressure vs. not. just like rewarding an attention heel when the dog is not looking.


Ok so what's a solution? If the dog was still alive.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Ok so what's a solution? If the dog was still alive.


Are we following IPO rules for the transport? I'll need to know the sport so I can read the rules to answer without talking out my ass. Any more than normal, anyway.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Dana found a solution...the dog died a couple of years ago at 12years old.


That certainly sucks and puts a damper on fixing it.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The subject of the thread is transports for IPO. Ring has escorts.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> The subject of the thread is transports for IPO. Ring has escorts.


 
Hey. I don't know it all and posts rarely stick to topics here. But what does PSA have? Transport, remote transport... better to ask and be sure. I know that isn't always the rule here. Heading into work. I'll read the rules and post later. Thanks for the link to the IPO rules.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

In IPO there is a back transport and a side escort. Lots of people use a "transport" command when they''re doing a side escort?


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> In IPO there is a back transport and a side escort. Lots of people use a "transport" command when they''re doing a side escort?


I still use transport. However, I feel that if it is very clear to the dog that transport means "Look at the helper but maintain contact with my leg and your ribs/shoulder area" then the behavior is the same whether you are far away or walking next to the helper.

Here's a little vid from working on this Monday night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sjtsw5HmTw


----------

