# Teaching the hold (opposite)



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I have watched many trainers, including the cutting edge trainers of today repeating techniques for teaching the hold in a manor that is completely opposite of logic IMO! It also seems that 90% of trainers teach this way and it seems to be a huge problem in causing mouthy holds! Every seminar for SCH I went to there was always someone who had the mouthy dumbbell problem and the solution was always to fight/play with dumbbell or hold the dogs mouth shut! I have found the opposite to be true!

1. They use PVC - hard object

This promotes a dog not holding firmly! In fact hunting trainers will use a frozen/hard quail to deter a young dog from developing a hard mouth!

I have found a rolled up sock to be the easiest and clearest way to get them to understand to hold firmly. At first they want to mouth it which makes it very clear to the dog when you get them to stop mouthing!

2. Hold the mouth closed! I witnessed this by the Jesus of dog trainers in Wisconsin a few years back and I have rarely seen it ever work. It promotes the dog to barely hold the dumbbell. The dog tilts its head back and it dangles loosely after being taught like this.
It totally goes against "opposition reflex"! You hold the mouth closed and the dog wants to open it!
I have found the exact opposite to be true! You try pulling there mouth apart slowly with your thumbs and it promotes the dog to squeeze. You can also tie a thin rope to the object and around your belt loops. While the dog is sitting in front you tell him to hold. The dog holds and you place your thumbs in the front teeth and pull gently apart. While you are doing that you can bend over slightly to put some resistance on the object( remember the string is around your belt ). Your thumbs are blocking him from coming forward and when you feel him solid on the object you can relieve the tension on the object by standing up straight!

Those damn Video makers!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

start burning some DVD'S and you can be the newest doggy saviour


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> start burning some DVD'S and you can be the newest doggy saviour


 Do you disagree Will?
We have started iceberg training solutions!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> start burning some DVD'S and you can be the newest doggy saviour


There is only one savior and you shall not disagree with him!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

why should those that remain nameless make all the money. If it works...sell it.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> why should those that remain nameless make all the money. If it works...sell it.


I will need a 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJbkxBQUQU0&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Nice post Tim; did you do this with Carna and her retrieves (which are nice)?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I have watched many trainers, including the cutting edge trainers of today repeating techniques for teaching the hold in a manor that is completely opposite of logic IMO! It also seems that 90% of trainers teach this way and it seems to be a huge problem in causing mouthy holds! Every seminar for SCH I went to there was always someone who had the mouthy dumbbell problem and the solution was always to fight/play with dumbbell or hold the dogs mouth shut! I have found the opposite to be true!
> 
> 1. They use PVC - hard object
> 
> ...


Tim I teach them to hold early during play. Basically how you outline. Good points for sure.


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

I personally use PVC because I can roll it or slip it out of their mouth easily. Since I always start it with a clicker, they really want to posses it...if they aren't holding it firm enough or letting it move, I just slip it out of their mouth to frustrate them. My 2 year old shepherd could get his teeth into fabric but not really hold strong with his jaws- but I still couldn't get the object away. Sometimes I will put vet wrap on the pvc to start and then remove it. If my dog holds the PVC firm, then he will generally hold anything really firm. JMO and what has worked for us!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christina Kennedy said:


> I personally use PVC because I can roll it or slip it out of their mouth easily. Since I always start it with a clicker, they really want to posses it...if they aren't holding it firm enough or letting it move, I just slip it out of their mouth to frustrate them. My 2 year old shepherd could get his teeth into fabric but not really hold strong with his jaws- but I still couldn't get the object away. Sometimes I will put vet wrap on the pvc to start and then remove it. If my dog holds the PVC firm, then he will generally hold anything really firm. JMO and what has worked for us!


Sounds like he didn't hold the PVC firm if I'm reading what you wrote correctly. And yes it sounds like he is " holding" fabric the same way he was taught to hold PVC originally. You just proved my point!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

@ Megan, yes that is how I trained Carna and the first time she got a dumbbell she squeezes it HARD! There is no loose holding and pulling like Christina just described!

@Brian, you're hired!


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## Mark Ryden (Mar 25, 2009)

Does anyone use the force retreive anymore?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christina Kennedy said:


> I personally use PVC because I can roll it or slip it out of their mouth easily...if they aren't holding it firm enough or letting it move, I just slip it out of their mouth to frustrate them. !


So your kinda of teaching them that they can incite play from you if they hold it loosely!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christina Kennedy said:


> My 2 year old shepherd could get his teeth into fabric but not really hold strong with his jaws- but I still couldn't get the object away.


This is why I don't like that way of teaching with PVC, your dog should hold "everything" hard!


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

No it never incited a play response in my dog. He WANTED the reward- if I got the dowl away from him, the reward was obviously withheld. This created frustration on his part and a very strong clamping of the PVC. The PVC was never used in play or to incite play. Worked fine for my dog. I am discussing 2 different dogs though. One of my shepherds was taught to hold with a stuffed toy. He would hold that strong enough that I could not get it from him but it did not instantly transfer to slick or harder objects at all because he didn't need to previously hold as hard on the fabric object. My other shepherd that I started free shaping on the dowl holds everything very hard. The dowl is very slick, especially when salivated on- so that is actually the hardest thing for him to hold. The jaw clenching hold transferred to any other object after that. It is just what worked for him.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Mark Ryden said:


> Does anyone use the force retreive anymore?


Holding and retrieving can be broken down into 2 separate exercises. But yes I do use the force retrieve as well!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christina Kennedy said:


> No it never incited a play response in my dog. He WANTED the reward- if I got the dowl away from him, the reward was obviously withheld. This created frustration on his part and a very strong clamping of the PVC. The PVC was never used in play or to incite play. .


Ok! So what happens when you pull out of his mouth, how do you withhold it?

So you telling him to hold didn't create the clamping..... It was the frustration you made,,,,, you see?
No frustration=No Clanping, and you pull the toy out, frustrate, and there you have the endless cycle!


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

btw- I agree completely that holding the dog's mouth closed triggers opposition reflex to want to spit it out...I do something similar with trying to pry the object from the dog's mouth...the belt loop idea is interesting and I might have to try it sometime.


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

Ok! So what happens when you pull out of his mouth, how do you withhold it?

*When it used to come out of his mouth (only happened a few times, the first couple times I yanked it sideways through his teeth), he was baffled and tried to go for his toy or food reward which got moved further away. So then his next response was to offer the hold behavior again (this was free-shaped so no commands). I think I got it from him twice, maybe three times, by slipping it through the sides of his teeth before he really started to clamp down very very hard and there was no sliding it anywhere. Then his click and reward would come. To this dog, the reward is an extremely high motivator for him. That was a while ago. We have a little game we play now where I will try and get the dumbell or the PVC from him and he will clamp down with all he has because he knows if I get it, it is mine and the game either ends or he does not get his toy. *

So you telling him to hold didn't create the clamping..... It was the frustration you made,,,,, you see?

*I am ignorant and not quite sure what you mean? I had no command for the hold at this point so I was not telling him to do anything- he was offering the hold for me. And yes, I already said I liked the PVC because I could slip it sideways through the teeth to create frustration in the dog and a high desire to hold it with all his might. Just sharing what has worked for me and my dogs is all. The one time I tried to teach the hold using fabric on my first shepherd, the strong hold didn't transfer to hard or slick objects because he did not have to hold that strong on the fabric (and I still could not get it from him). *


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christina, here is something to think about. You start your dog out on a hard or soft sleeve? Soft, why? So they have the feeling of crushing it and then you build up to soft slippery fabrique like a french linen bite wedge, and then to harder objects! Why would "hold" training be different?

Your way is the most common for sure but Ive seen more dogs with a mouthy hold than anything. Of coarse the retrieve and relationship with handler can cause a lot of it as well.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I went to Sch Seminar, and heard a very simple answer for mouthing. Give them the dumbbell, and if they chew...just wait till they stop. then mark and reward. worked for me.


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

I am not an expert but I suppose you start with a soft sleeve to feel the crushing, to build up muscle strength in the jaws to be able to hold the harder sleeve, to build confidence in the dog, etc. 

Not saying using fabric for the hold is not a good idea- just saying it did not work when I had tried it. With that particular dog, it was not until I was able to make the dog start "losing" the object, that his grip on the dumbell improved drastically. I also have a hard time with my dogs all thinking that soft fabric is a toy...of course this is my screw up I am sure!...and I don't like the dog to perceive my take and hold object as a toy...but I am always working grip strength on my dog's softer toys so I guess in a way, I am still not using the dowel first. The dog's strength to hold an object is initiated during our play.

I don't see many people truly shaping the retrieve. At least not in my area... Yes they use PVC but I more often see people who force it in the dog's mouth and then try and hold it shut. This creates aversion and stress which creates mouthy or weak holding IMO. Of course many people are successful with this method as well- it just isn't what I like to do. 

I have played around with Bart Bellon's force retrieve (on a table with the dog in a stand, head pointed down). Interesting success with it with my husband's mouthy bitch who didn't have a foundation in anything clicker. She took to it immediately and also clamps very hard on the PVC. 

I agree that the retrieve and relationship with the handler has a lot to do with mouthing as well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Maybe I will try a more formal hold on fabric first when my new puppy is of age to work it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> @ Megan, yes that is how I trained Carna and the first time she got a dumbbell she squeezes it HARD! There is no loose holding and pulling like Christina just described!
> 
> @Brian, you're hired!


LETS GO TO WORK LOL ...but I aint gonna lie Tim I DO NOT use socks I use a tug


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I had a mouthy loose hold on my dog. I used Ivan's method and after some time it work well. I beleive that you should have different methods for different dogs. IMHO no one method works the best for all dogs. Have a few different methods in your training tool box. Just be careful of switching up to soon.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I went to Sch Seminar, and heard a very simple answer for mouthing. Give them the dumbbell, and if they chew...just wait till they stop. then mark and reward. worked for me.


That brings up a food point James! The thing about the initially teaching process with PVC and marker training or even that method James is that it doesn't teach them to hold tight initially! Between chewing and loosely dangling in-between teeth it is hard to mark the precise moment of a "firm grip". It results in having to pull on it and play games trying to get it right. With a pair of plush "thick winter socks rolled" it is very distinct when the grip is not chewy and firm, it is much easier to mark it


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> I had a mouthy loose hold on my dog. I used Ivan's method and after some time it work well. I beleive that you should have different methods for different dogs. IMHO no one method works the best for all dogs. Have a few different methods in your training tool box. Just be careful of switching up to soon.


I agree but if taught clearly the first few times it can make things much easier!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I went to Sch Seminar, and heard a very simple answer for mouthing. Give them the dumbbell, and if they chew...just wait till they stop. then mark and reward. worked for me.


One more thought about not being able to mark a firm grip. Many dogs simply let the dumbbell rest in-between teeth. With a heavier SCH3 dumbbell this can manifest into problems if they "act like the dumbbell is too heavy" if they hold calm but gingerly. I believe a lot of dogs hold softly and all it takes is a couple clamps to make it look chewy in competition!

Also I was once told not to start with a dumbbell just in case something strange or weird happened initially. Although it probably doesn't too often!


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

Also I was once told not to start with a dumbbell just in case something strange or weird happened initially. Although it probably doesn't too often!

*I agree with this as well....I am sure most people are fine but I figure if I ever screw something up or have to add compulsion or force on a certain dog, I would rather they not associate it with the actual dumbbell at that point in time.. *


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Chewing is a problem I have with my Mal. I'm sure I did lots of things wrong and helped create this problem. Oops.

I taught a hold with the clicker because I'm too much of a softie to go forced retrieve, but he is not really holding, he's just sort of resting it in his teeth. On the other hand, I can ask him to hold almost anything (hammer, metal pipe, plastic spoon) and he will take it and hold it. I figure with him, at this point in the game, that's as good as it's going to get and I'm not going to trial him anyway, but I would be interested in trying out something new. 

I would be interested in seeing video, if you were willing to share.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Yes, video of you teaching this to some hectic mini mal would be helpful. :wink: I think I catch your drift, mostly.

Not Vitor, I am sure he holds everything perfect and firm.

Carna is already trained...

Do you have any new dogs at your club? Have you started it with the other dutchie in your club?

I need to see it done with one person if you can arrange it...as a favour?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

And also, with your method (I am assuming you made it up yourself and didn't learn it from someone else), once the dog has the nice grip...do you reward somehow? If so .... how?

Thanks!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Okay, even more things I am wondering about. I am sure they will be covered step by step in the video that will be for sale, but maybe you will let me in on for free? :razz:

Do you start this sitting, standing, or moving?

What is your reaction when if you go to pry the teeth open the dog...
growls?
turns its head away?
flicks its head away as you are prying, and then wants to jam it back at you, like it is some kind of game?

Just NO, sit, HOLD, continue?

Is your method "marker" free?

I mean do I first have to get my dog used to me prying the jaws apart/reaching for the face to challenge the possession of the item?

Do I first reward my dog for letting me touch her teeth without moving and so on?

Sorry for all the questions, just a few things i envision coming up if I try this.

It is fun to talk about dog training! Not quite as fun as doing it...but fun none the less!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

what ever happed to the back tie with a prong collar and a whip. Crack the whip, hold the dumbell just out of reach and when the dog is all fired up...let him chomp on it. 

I remember that from a long time ago and/or maybe some tiekerhook video. Must be for the really slow dogs.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

My question before having to pay for the video is: At what age would you teach this? After or before teething? Your premise on opposition reflex has worked well for me in many other training areas; just never thought of it in this area. Makes total sense to me! 
I have to say these kind of thoughts are why I'm here, thanks!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> And also, with your method (I am assuming you made it up yourself and didn't learn it from someone else), once the dog has the nice grip...do you reward somehow? If so .... how?
> 
> Thanks!


Dog in a sit, I come to him in a front and present the sock with both hands on side! Some dogs you may have to make a little drive to get the first bite, or even pulling it back toward you quickly to initiate the first hold.
At first when the hold is hard and steady for a second or two while I'm prying apart jaws I say yes(mark) and reward with a tug from behind me in my pants! I don't care if the dog drops it directly on the ground. I know some people who say "never" let the dog drop it(another reason I'd never start with a dumbbell) but it doesn't matter at first cause you need to reward quickly. Every dog I did this with will chew the sock at first which makes it easier to mark when they stop chewing and are calm & firm! 
Eventually you incresae the time with a "bridge" word, good. I still don't ask the dog to out formely but I start putting my hands on the sides of the sock like you would in a trial so they never recognize that as a automatic out. I then go back to to prying, maybe a slow pet while briging, release my hands from the sock and say yes! The dog will always think I'm gonna go through the rituals before I say "yes" or out them so they never anticipate. I try to be intermittent, sometimes I mark while I'm prying apart, but I never out the first time my hands go in the trial position in a training rep, but I never say "yes" if my hands are in the trial position!
From there I go to a homemade dumbbell, "pine wood" since it is softer!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> what ever happed to the back tie with a prong collar and a whip. Crack the whip, hold the dumbell just out of reach and when the dog is all fired up...let him chomp on it.
> 
> I remember that from a long time ago and/or maybe some tiekerhook video. Must be for the really slow dogs.


Then you'll need the next video from Tiekerhoek on how to out the fuker LOL


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> My question before having to pay for the video is: At what age would you teach this? After or before teething? Your premise on opposition reflex has worked well for me in many other training areas; just never thought of it in this area. Makes total sense to me!
> I have to say these kind of thoughts are why I'm here, thanks!


Age is hard to say but when the dog has established a good firm grip in tug work and sees the "tug" as the real reward! Maybe 12 months old if the dog is really loaded or later? But no sooner but that's just me! The informal bringing back of things would be more important and prior to this!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Okay, even more things I am wondering about. I am sure they will be covered step by step in the video that will be for sale, but maybe you will let me in on for free? :razz:
> 
> Do you start this sitting, standing, or moving? *SITTING*
> 
> ...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Dog in a sit, I come to him in a front and present the sock with both hands on side! Some dogs you may have to make a little drive to get the first bite, or even pulling it back toward you quickly to initiate the first hold.
> At first when the hold is hard and steady for a second or two while I'm prying apart jaws I say yes(mark) and reward with a tug from behind me in my pants! I don't care if the dog drops it directly on the ground. I know some people who say "never" let the dog drop it(another reason I'd never start with a dumbbell) but it doesn't matter at first cause you need to reward quickly. Every dog I did this with will chew the sock at first which makes it easier to mark when they stop chewing and are calm & firm!
> Eventually you incresae the time with a "bridge" word, good. I still don't ask the dog to out formely but I start putting my hands on the sides of the sock like you would in a trial so they never recognize that as a automatic out. I then go back to to prying, maybe a slow pet while briging, release my hands from the sock and say yes! The dog will always think I'm gonna go through the rituals before I say "yes" or out them so they never anticipate. I try to be intermittent, sometimes I mark while I'm prying apart, but I never out the first time my hands go in the trial position in a training rep, but I never say "yes" if my hands are in the trial position!
> From there I go to a homemade dumbbell, "pine wood" since it is softer!


Copy that.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

jennifer coulter said:


> copy that.


dont forget that you can tie the sock off to your waist as well


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

The other thing is that once the hold is 100% you can start showing the finished trial picture with your hands at your side without ever doing the retrieve portion


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## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

I'm going to give this a try with Zeph. She tries to steal socks anyway so it might as well be a self-rewarding lesson.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I teach the grip on the dumbell by tapping it on the sides with either hand. If the grip is loose the dog is going to loose it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

So if I buy the video, and do this, the dog will then just pick up my socks and hold them? instead of tearing them into pieces?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> So if I buy the video, and do this, the dog will then just pick up my socks and hold them? instead of tearing them into pieces?


LOL, the second DVD titled, " The Power of The Rolled Sock" goes into greater detail on this


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'll start off with this:

Have you read Ferdinand Most's forced retrieve? Prong collar - dumbell held in front of the dog's mouth - if he grabs the dumbell, ok, if not, more pressure on the prong collar.

I have read your posts with interest Timothy. I maybe the queerest thing on the canine horizont, but, I cannot start off "holding" before retrieving.

First of all, I test the retrieve when I have a puppy. If this is good, throw out, come back, let him run around with his "furry object" - never just take it off him.

The Briard was a natural retriever but, with the wooden dumbell he used to race in and mouth. He was so into retrieving however that when he came in I just tapped him on the nose and said "nein". Once or twice and the matter was resolved.

I learned in the meantime not to use the dumbell as the motivation object. The dog must run out, as if in a tunnel, pick up the dumbell, return as quickly as the outrun and sit without "mouthing".

The dumbell must *never* be a motivation's object. The dog must sit in front of you in anticipation of what will come when he "hands" over the dumbell without mouthing it.

Ronnie Van den Berg used to reward the dog, alternately, with an "out" as he came in and a kong. Alternately, he would order the correct "front" and "out".

For those who prefer the "hold" before the "retrieve", there is also a method of using a glove (with your hand in it) for the holding exercise.

Timothy, please don't think I'm trying to derail your thread. I'm just trying to explain why I do everything backward. Over here, we were told to sit on a stool in the kitchen with the dog in a corner and make (force?) him to hold the dumbell and I couldn't relate to this.

All methods with the pup / dog must involve the individual handler's temperament / ability


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gillian, I said the retrieving aspect comes first for sure, but for me it's informal retrieves and finishes. Throwing a object and the dog pulls to get it, let him go and a quick pop to bring it back quickly... To my chest, basically slamming into me for speed and some tugging/ playing! I teach "hold" passively after this stuff is good, so it's completely separate from retrieving!

Inductive before force, but that's just me! Somedogs are so good when taught the hold portion inductively that you don't have to go to full force retrieve!

Brings up a point I failed to mention. During this if the dog spits it out or drops anything he is told to hold he is lifted up slightly on a pinch while I kick the object, causing stress and him wanting to get it. So as soon as I let go, they grab it! I'll softly say sit and hold and make sure the grip is firm!

My point is that I do force if they quit but I teach inductively first and force is only applied in the beginning if the dog has a pretty good idea I want him to hold it. If they were unsure, they aren't after a few sessions of causing restraint and stress if they spit it out!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Usually this comes when the time you ask them to hold for starts getting extended. They might spit it out in anticipation or whatever the case! That's when I apply stress but they must have a idea of what hold means first. So it's not typical full blown force i resort too right away!

The dog is making the decision to relieve the stress on his own by picking it off the ground. After he picks it up and I say sit and he spits it out,,,, stress comes. One session and they usually will not spit it out again because it's very clear, I think!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

So many people say they train inductively but they are usually very quick to go to a full force retrieve with electric, a table, a ear pinch, toe pull, or whatever else! Show the dog first (manipulate and persuasion like how most would teach any OB exercise) and force is always the very very last thing for me! The last two dogs I have not had to force in the typical sense that most people talk about!
Including Vitor who did not want to bring Anything back to me!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The only difference is, I do it to a stage where they do a formal retrieve and, if they mouth, I tap on the muzzle and say "nein". At this stage, the dog knows it's good to fetch and bring it in quickly and the corrections are not disturbing him.

With our younger GSD, I made the mistake of thinking, ok, you're a hard nut, let's get this on the road. The dog balked and I had to start again. I pulled the dumbell in my hand away from him, after a few times, he grabbed it and I started walking in circles with him and sitting with him at my side, whilst I outed. Then sitting with him in front of me and outing. Absolutely no spitting out and, wonder upon wonder, with a piece of kibble in my mouth, he gazed up at me and held on to the dumbell.

The spitting out is something I have not yet encountered apart from the dog above but because I know him to be a hard nut, I moved too fast, too quickly.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

These are the sort of threads I enjoy. 

I hope more join in and tell us of their successes and failures.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I teach the grip on the dumbell by tapping it on the sides with either hand. If the grip is loose the dog is going to loose it.


It worked for me, too, either on dumbell or muzzle.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

On a funny note, at a trial I saw a dog refuse to give up the dumbell to the handler. 

The "hold" was magnificent :lol::lol:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> On a funny note, at a trial I saw a dog refuse to give up the dumbell to the handler.
> 
> The "hold" was magnificent :lol::lol:


The full force retrieve at it's best 

I agree that most dogs don't drop it(dumbbell). The way I described training it there is a point where they might, but that is at the beginning and with a pair of plushly rolled socks. I almost invite them to drop it at some point so it becomes perfectly clear they should not do that


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

WHEN can i buy the "out' dvd...

I tried the Uncle Lou method,, it did NOT work..I have no video to verify that we did it correctly..but I ASSUME we did....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> WHEN can i buy the "out' dvd...
> 
> I tried the Uncle Lou method,, it did NOT work..I have no video to verify that we did it correctly..but I ASSUME we did....


That's a DAMN lie Joby. Those methods are 100% effective with every dog. What did YOU do wrong? ;-)


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's a DAMN lie Joby. Those methods are 100% effective with every dog. What did YOU do wrong? ;-)


He misread the 100 page spec manual on outing


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's a DAMN lie Joby. Those methods are 100% effective with every dog. What did YOU do wrong? ;-)


WHO KNOWS...it coulda been a multitude of errors..I am only genius...not an ultra-genius..


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> These are the sort of threads I enjoy.
> 
> I hope more join in and tell us of their successes and failures.


I taught the hold on a soft squeaky toy,,,, never,,,never ,,give it up !!! That's what I got,,,5 years later,, no out LOL

I may try the sock technique next time.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I taught the hold on a soft squeaky toy,,,, never,,,never ,,give it up !!! That's what I got,,,5 years later,, no out LOL
> pm
> I may try the sock technique next time.


iif the dirty socks do not work...try dirty undergarments...if that does not work..try ME method..PM'ed you my contact info


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> iif the dirty socks do not work...try dirty undergarments...if that does not work..try ME method..PM'ed you my contact info


Joby, you just like abuse Lol


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> iif the dirty socks do not work...try dirty undergarments...if that does not work..try ME method..PM'ed you my contact info


Before contacting ME for 250 dollars, try a old shoe


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Before contacting ME for 250 dollars, try a old shoe


If he's using it for what I think he's got in mind, that sounds kinda painful but uh good luck Joby.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I feel there was a time warp on this thread? Something's missing, almost like Vodoo!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I feel there was a time warp on this thread? Something's missing, almost like Vodoo!


Timothy

You can't say Voodoo on the WDF. Both of these replies will disappear in 10 9 8 ...........


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anyone ever seen the Tom Rose "Forced Retrieve" video? 
I'm surprised the animal rights folks haven't gotten hold of that one.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Anyone ever seen the Tom Rose "Forced Retrieve" video?
> I'm surprised the animal rights folks haven't gotten hold of that one.


I have not, but his heeling video was helpful!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I have not, but his heeling video was helpful!



His heeling video was 99% motivational. I've seen him train and many of his students also (he's in the St. Louis area). The video was...shall we say, not a true representation of the schools methods. :-\"


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