# American Bully Question



## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

For those of you that have been so critical about this breed, what research have you done, or what knowledge do you have of them... Yes there are a lot of bad breeders that are trying to make "tough looking" or "extreme" dogs. Yes 90% of them dont know what they are doing... But the good example, what can you say about them? Have you actually looked at a real pedigree and traced it back to the late 1890's-the present? I mean I hear a lot of talk, but no evidence, so what do you have to say and please support your theories with sufficent evidence.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

The only thing I care about is will bullies kill those annoying chickens that keep pestering my Dutchies?:smile:


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Really? Another Bully thread? I have a few questions for you Gregory.

What is the purpose of American Bullies?
When you breed what characteristics are you trying to bring out?
What makes you choose what dogs to breed?
Why American bullies instead of APBT or American Bulldogs?


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

I know that abominable pig-dog breeders have(and continue) to hang papers on litters bred into mastiff, cane corso, and presa blood in order to achieve the desired colors and physical traits the abominable pig-dogs have become known for.

I notice you mention you're a breeder and also a bullmastiff 'fancier'. Coincidence?


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Gregory,

In the history of the APBT when have they been really successful in the man-work? 

I think for the most part, that is what most members on here care about.


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## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

> Have you actually looked at a real pedigree and traced it back to the late 1890's-the present?


Are they "real" like Eddington dogs? The Red Dagger dogs?


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Christen Adkins said:


> Are they "real" like Eddington dogs? The Red Dagger dogs?


 
I can tell you they are nothing like whopper dogs! But paper hanging occurs in every breed! So as far as what I know of my dogs, they are larger framed APBT's but out of respect for gamedogs, I will not call them APBT's


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Meng Xiong said:


> Gregory,
> 
> In the history of the APBT when have they been really successful in the man-work?
> 
> I think for the most part, that is what most members on here care about.


 
For the most part, they are not stable enough for this kind of work. I have seen only a handful of them that are actually good specemins


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

James Lechernich said:


> I know that abominable pig-dog breeders have(and continue) to hang papers on litters bred into mastiff, cane corso, and presa blood in order to achieve the desired colors and physical traits the abominable pig-dogs have become known for.
> 
> I notice you mention you're a breeder and also a bullmastiff 'fancier'. Coincidence?


 
I do not breed bullmastiffs or show them, but I own them and attend Bullmastiff shows... hence fancier...


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> The only thing I care about is will bullies kill those annoying chickens that keep pestering my Dutchies?:smile:


 
If you would like, my girl marley would be happy to take care of your chicken problem! Love dutch shephers as well! Awesome dogs


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Ben Colbert said:


> Really? Another Bully thread? I have a few questions for you Gregory.
> 
> What is the purpose of American Bullies?
> When you breed what characteristics are you trying to bring out?
> ...


 
Purpose: Conformation, health, and stable temperament for families,

Characteristics: ^^ Stated above

Why I choose a breeding pair: Stable temperament, then health, then conformation... in that order

Why American Bullies? I like the looks of them more than game dogs... I LOOOOVVVVEEEE AMerican Bulldogs as well though


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hmmm...health. My favorite topic. :smile: So what health certificates do you get on your breeding stock before breeding?


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hmmm...health. My favorite topic. :smile: So what health certificates do you get on your breeding stock before breeding?


I'll 2nd that question and raise you one more; How is he evaluating the stability of his dogs' temperaments? CGC? ATT?? Obedience titles???


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don't you think there are enough mutts at shelters for people that simply want a dog with a stable personality?

Do we really need to go and invent other breeds because someone thinks they "look cool"? I mean I just don't get it. I like really long GSD's. I think I'll breed corgi's to GSD's untll I get a long GSD and I might add some Dalmatian somewhere because I like spots. Yeah, spots are cool.

Doesn't anyone have ethics anymore?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> Don't you think there are enough mutts at shelters for people that simply want a dog with a stable personality?
> 
> Do we really need to go and invent other breeds because someone thinks they "look cool"? I mean I just don't get it. I like really long GSD's. I think I'll breed corgi's to GSD's untll I get a long GSD and I might add some Dalmatian somewhere because I like spots. Yeah, spots are cool.
> 
> Doesn't anyone have ethics anymore?


Exactly, especially since almost no pit bulls make it out of shelters alive these days. :-( Pit bulls are not legislated against in our town, but they are not adopted out. So pit bull breeders really have a responsibility to be ethical. I have actually seen a Corgi/GSD cross. It was almost full GSD size and GSDish in appearance, but really short legs and kinda fluffy "britches" like a Pembroke.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

"Why I choose a breeding pair: Stable temperament, then health, then conformation... in that order"

do you not work the dogs before breeding them? 
if not why?
isnt the AB "supposed" to be a working breed?


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Exactly, especially since almost no pit bulls make it out of shelters alive these days. :-( Pit bulls are not legislated against in our town, but they are not adopted out. So pit bull breeders really have a responsibility to be ethical. I have actually seen a Corgi/GSD cross. It was almost full GSD size and GSDish in appearance, but really short legs and kinda fluffy "britches" like a Pembroke.


 
I know all too much about over population, which is why in the past 2 years I have only chosen to do 1 breeding, and got to hand pick who all of my dogs went to. And I even keep in touch too make sure all of the dogs I have produced go to suitable families. I OFA and PennHip just so everyone knows. NOBODY in the bully world does this either! It is an issue and I have been pushing for maditory health certs for all registered dogs....


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Exactly, especially since almost no pit bulls make it out of shelters alive these days. :-( Pit bulls are not legislated against in our town, but they are not adopted out. So pit bull breeders really have a responsibility to be ethical. I have actually seen a Corgi/GSD cross. It was almost full GSD size and GSDish in appearance, but really short legs and kinda fluffy "britches" like a Pembroke.


 
I know all too much about over population, which is why in the past 2 years I have only chosen to do 1 breeding, and got to hand pick who all of my dogs went to. And I even keep in touch too make sure all of the dogs I have produced go to suitable families. I OFA and PennHip just so everyone knows. NOBODY in the bully world does this either! It is an issue and I have been pushing for maditory health certs for all registered dogs....


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

did you OFA or pennhip, they are two different organizations? 
can you produce OFA/Pennhip registry numbers on the dogs?
got links to the records?


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

chris haynie said:


> "Why I choose a breeding pair: Stable temperament, then health, then conformation... in that order"
> 
> do you not work the dogs before breeding them?
> if not why?
> isnt the AB "supposed" to be a working breed?


 
Suitable American Bullies as far as PPD work are extremely rare... So rare that only one breeder I know of does it, co incidentally, that is the one breeder that I work with. English mastiffs are a working breed... How many of them work?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

That's a very good start, Gregory. Keep an eye on cranial cruciate (ACL) tears as pit bulls are very prone to them as there seems to be a genetic component in dogs as it is degenerative and demodectic mange (from an immune system defect, possibly from the high degree of inbreeding in gamebred pit bulls). In more detail, what else did you use as your criteria for breeding for temperament and health?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

You guys got to the bottom line with of this joker. He doesn't do anything that you just asked. Just another clown BACK YARD BREEDER.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> You guys got to the bottom line with of this joker. He doesn't do anything that you just asked. Just another clown BACK YARD BREEDER.


 
So people that breed toy dogs are backyard breederes because they do not "work" there dogs? I have respect for working dogs which is why I am here on this forum. I would love to learn as much as I can about it. Sorry the breed I like is an abomination to you, however that is your opinion... You have your opinion, I have mine... Ill leave it at that. If you know any good places to view working dutchies that would be of some help to me though! I know I started off on the wrong foot with a lot of people, but I am trying to move in a positive direction. If you dont like bullies, by all mean I respect that. But I hope you can respect that I am actually here to learn unlike any other bully people.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That's a very good start, Gregory. Keep an eye on cranial cruciate (ACL) tears as pit bulls are very prone to them as there seems to be a genetic component in dogs as it is degenerative and demodectic mange (from an immune system defect, possibly from the high degree of inbreeding in gamebred pit bulls). In more detail, what else did you use as your criteria for breeding for temperament and health?


 
After Temperament and health, I choose looks that I desire in a dog and try to bring out those attributes. Though not my goal, the idea of a PPD bully like my man Ed has, would be awesome. I just realize that human aggression in the APBT is something that was bred out of them from the beginning..


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So with human aggression and guarding instinct not being a particular of emphasis to the breed and with BSL, why train for that? And elaborate again your selection criteria for temperament.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gregory Escolta said:


> So people that breed toy dogs are backyard breederes because they do not "work" there dogs? I have respect for working dogs which is why I am here on this forum. I would love to learn as much as I can about it. Sorry the breed I like is an abomination to you, however that is your opinion... You have your opinion, I have mine... Ill leave it at that. If you know any good places to view working dutchies that would be of some help to me though! I know I started off on the wrong foot with a lot of people, but I am trying to move in a positive direction. If you dont like bullies, by all mean I respect that. But I hope you can respect that I am actually here to learn unlike any other bully people.


There you go, Gregory. That was a important step. I respect that step. Now maybe people here will make suggestions.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gregory Escolta said:


> So people that breed toy dogs are backyard breederes because they do not "work" there dogs?


The purpose of a toy breed is to be a companion, so if I was in the market for a toy breed (not my style, but whatever), I'd look for someone who does therapy work and who has put CGCs on their dogs as a very basic companion dog certification. Toy dogs can also be excellent at agility, obedience, rally, earthdog and flyball. Yappy, snarky, nasty little landsharks don't make particularly good companions.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> There you go, Gregory. That was a important step. I respect that step. Now maybe people here will make suggestions.


Does your work involve Mals or Dutchies? 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> The purpose of a toy breed is to be a companion, so if I was in the market for a toy breed (not my style, but whatever), I'd look for someone who does therapy work and who has put CGCs on their dogs as a very basic companion dog certification. Toy dogs can also be excellent at agility, obedience, rally, earthdog and flyball. Yappy, snarky, nasty little landsharks don't make particularly good companions.


Well being as that dog fighting is immoral and illegal, where does that leave us today.. I know some bully ppl that do weight pull, and one that is really dedicated to protection... Other than that, they are usually just a companion pet.... I know the stigmas that come w/ "pitbulls" which is why I make sure my dogs have forever homes from the beggining and as to date I have never had a problem giving an animal a good quality home....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gregory Escolta said:


> Well being as that dog fighting is immoral and illegal, where does that leave us today.. I know some bully ppl that do weight pull, and one that is really dedicated to protection... Other than that, they are usually just a companion pet.... I know the stigmas that come w/ "pitbulls" which is why I make sure my dogs have forever homes from the beggining and as to date I have never had a problem giving an animal a good quality home....


There's many other venues the versatile APBT can do well instead of just dog fighting. Weight pull is one, but there's also service work (like Anne Vaini's dog), therapy work, disc, agility, dock diving, detection, obedience/rally, SAR, flyball, herding, and hog hunting. GSDs, Malinois, Dutch shepherds, and Rottweilers started as herding dogs, but not many do that now.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There's many other venues the versatile APBT can do well instead of just dog fighting. Weight pull is one, but there's also service work (like Anne Vaini's dog), therapy work, disc, agility, dock diving, detection, obedience/rally, SAR, flyball, herding, and hog hunting. GSDs, Malinois, Dutch shepherds, and Rottweilers started as herding dogs, but not many do that now.



Hog hunting is something that the original greyline people used to do... I would love to see what my dogs could do with agility or flyball!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

when I think of american bullies, I think of this short video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VtMmTSHhlE&feature=related


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> when I think of american bullies, I think of this short video
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VtMmTSHhlE&feature=related



The ironic thing about it is that I know the owner of those dogs and completed a breeding with one of his current studs...


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Gregory Escolta said:


> The ironic thing about it is that I know the owner of those dogs and completed a breeding with one of his current studs...


Definitely the last thing you should've admitted to here. Credibility has left the building! :roll:


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## Carlos Machado (Dec 28, 2008)

Shows the working ability quite well they can't even bred


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Carlos Machado said:


> Shows the working ability quite well they can't even bred


 
IDK why everyone on here thinks I am trying to introduce my bullies to PP work... They are simply for showing and companion purposes... And as far as credibility ppl, though his dog did that, he is actually a very reputable breeder.


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## Joel Alvarez (May 16, 2009)

I'm sorry but, what was the reason for your original post again? 
The American Bully is simply not an athlete. 
Joel


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Hey hey hey, HogHunting? Thats just bull


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

He must not have liked that bitch too much


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Gregory,



Gregory Escolta said:


> For those of you that have been so critical about this breed, what research have you done, or what knowledge do you have of them... Yes there are a lot of bad breeders that are trying to make "tough looking" or "extreme" dogs. Yes 90% of them dont know what they are doing... But the good example, what can you say about them? Have you actually looked at a real pedigree and traced it back to the late 1890's-the present? I mean I hear a lot of talk, but no evidence, so what do you have to say and please support your theories with sufficent evidence.


The problem I have is perhaps arguably philosophical. The main reason the Bull & Terriers are so special is that they are so athletic and have a lot of heart. The American Bully is taking the ultimate athlete and turning it into something else. I think a lot of people have a problem with the concept of taking a dog that is perfect as-is and highly versatile as both a working dog and a companion and turning it into something that can only function as a pet.

I think you will find a fair amount of people in the American Bulldog world similarly disgruntled with dogs being bred to look bullier.



Gregory Escolta said:


> Suitable American Bullies as far as PPD work are extremely rare... So rare that only one breeder I know of does it, co incidentally, that is the one breeder that I work with. English mastiffs are a working breed... How many of them work?


Isn't the state of the English Mastiff kind of a travesty too, though? It _was_ a working breed, historically, as was the Bull Mastiff, and a lot of other breeds. But the phenotype of the dogs have changed, as have their temperament and working ability from what I've gathered.

I do not wish you or your program any ill-will, but I would never buy an American Bully unless it was a rescue dog or something. Even then, I'd probably prefer to get a non-descript stringy goof-ball APBT or AB, a Border Terrier, or some Heinz 57 mutt. The American Bully is just not my cup of tea. Since they generally do not work (I've seen video of one doing some bitework, so there are likely a few exceptions), they do nothing that any of a million dogs at the pound won't. Even if I wanted one from a breeder and did not want to work it, I could get a nicely bred dog that lacked drive to do serious work and get a pet that is frankly almost certain to have better health than an American Bully and have a more functional phenotype. Even if I wanted something that looked kind of bully I could get an American Bulldog, Presa, or an APBT from working lines and either try to get a good working prospect or ask for a lower-drive and more biddable dog if I wanted a nice stable pet while still supporting a working dog breeder. Even a rescued Bull Mastiff would fill that niche.

That is nothing personal to the American Bully people. But you took what was arguably the ultimate athlete of the canine world and a capable working dog in a lot of venues and virtually stripped it of everything that made it special by emphasizing looks over ability. Not to mention some of the prices on those dogs are a joke. You can probably guess why all of this might not go over terribly well with some.

-Cheers


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

andreas broqvist said:


> Hey hey hey, HogHunting? Thats just bull


I have seen it on the Greylines oldvideo... 



David Ruby said:


> Hey Gregory,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying to the fullest... I myself used to attend bully shows and bully boards and stopped because I was disgusted by 99% of the terrible bullies made by ppl that shouldnt even have dogs... They are a dime a dozen now, and its getting old... Which is why i am looking for something more positive to get into now..


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Gregory Escolta said:


> I understand what you are saying to the fullest... I myself used to attend bully shows and bully boards and stopped because I was disgusted by 99% of the terrible bullies made by ppl that shouldnt even have dogs... They are a dime a dozen now, and its getting old... Which is why i am looking for something more positive to get into now..


I'd check out some local working dog events and dog clubs. There are people involved in Mondio, French Ring, SchH, Lord knows what else. Go out there, watch, ask questions, and get a feel for the dogs, the training styles, what it takes to handle a working dog, etc., etc. The Internet is great for looking stuff up, but it really comes together when you see what a really athletic working dog can do compared to the rest of what's out there.

And this is not a slam. If anything, it's me reflecting on myself. I'm new to this, but I've benefited from hanging around when agitators do bite locally and from visiting clubs and seminars. And I'm very green. So this is just me sort of regurgitating my experiences.

Go out there, meet people, listen, watch, and ask questions.

As for your dog selection for working? I'd just go see what's out there, then when you have somebody to train with a/o a club to work with on a regular basis it would not be the worst idea to ask your trainer(s) a/o decoys who has dogs that they would recommend for you considering where you are at and what you are looking for in a dog, and then finding a reliable breeder who will sell you a dog that is a good fit for you. That might be important because, even if there is some amazing Bull Mastiffs or Rottweilers out there but they are not accessible, but you can go hang out with the local Malinois or GSD or American Bulldog breeder (or whatever, just throwing out examples) and get a feel for said breeder's dogs and end up with something from a reliable breeder who will be there for you if/when things go wrong, that likely-near-impossible-to-fine awesome Bull Mastiff (or whatever) won't mean much if you end up with a really nice Herder (or whatever).

Again, I'm the antithesis of an expert, but that is more or less the good advice I've gotten.

-Cheers


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

David Ruby said:


> I'd check out some local working dog events and dog clubs. There are people involved in Mondio, French Ring, SchH, Lord knows what else. Go out there, watch, ask questions, and get a feel for the dogs, the training styles, what it takes to handle a working dog, etc., etc. The Internet is great for looking stuff up, but it really comes together when you see what a really athletic working dog can do compared to the rest of what's out there.
> 
> And this is not a slam. If anything, it's me reflecting on myself. I'm new to this, but I've benefited from hanging around when agitators do bite locally and from visiting clubs and seminars. And I'm very green. So this is just me sort of regurgitating my experiences.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks a lot for the tips! I finally have found a club nearby that I am visiting this weds! Thats what I really need... some hands on, face to face interaction!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> He must not have liked that bitch too much


That video reminded me of a Dice Clay joke.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That video reminded me of a Dice Clay joke.


...Wat was the joke? I think this thread could use a lighter note


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> He must not have liked that bitch too much




We've all been in his place before


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> We've all been in his place before


C'mon Matt. Let's hear it. :-\"

-Cheers


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

A nice pitty- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX8zsueSc-4&feature=channel ,

I'd call Chris Frazie if i wanted a bully breed dog


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

That's a good lookin, well trained, well bred dog right there. Don't know that I would go that route with an APBT but very nice nonetheless.


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