# How to choke-off RIGHT



## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

I've read many times that there is a difference between the choke-off and just a lift-off (or fake choke-off). That makes sense, but can someone explain me how to conduct a choke-off CORRECTLY?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Marina Schmidt said:


> I've read many times that there is a difference between the choke-off and just a lift-off (or fake choke-off). That makes sense, but can someone explain me how to conduct a choke-off CORRECTLY?


What works best I find is the collar be higher to the ears instead of what most peole do and keep it low on the neck. The lower on the neck the more muscel mass ( one of if not the strongest part of a dog ). Back on topic sorry. High to the ears first of all with both hands inside the collar inbetween the neck and collar of choice. you want to roll your fist in a forward upward direction putting your knuckles into the back of the neck while rolling tightness on the collar in front of the dog esophagus / throat. Hard to explain but works 100 times quicker then just pulling and hanging a dog of the ground ( sometimes needed ). What happens is keeping the collar flat doesn't raise a stimulus in the brain just causing the dog to fight more and get frustrated longer casuing more conflict. The way I explained is almost most the time a quick take off of what ever the dogs is grasping on to. Don't know if it makes much sense, but hopely you get the pic. Much better shown in person that trying to write about it. Maybe some others can explain better in a shorter brief summary as well for ya.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

What is "right" would depend on how you are using it. IE are you using it on a dog in training to build frustration/drive, or are you using it to remove a dog off a real bite, where you need them off NOW with the least amount of damage possible?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> What is "right" would depend on how you are using it. IE are you using it on a dog in training to build frustration/drive, or are you using it to remove a dog off a real bite, where you need them off NOW with the least amount of damage possible?


Kadi, Just asking so please dont get offensive by this question. But why choke off a dog differently for one way or another? If a dog needs to be choked off then a dog needs to be choked off, obviously the dog has a problem with outting.


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

yes, i want to know it in case of a real bite. i just want to be preapared, cause you can never know!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Marina Schmidt said:


> yes, i want to know it in case of a real bite. i just want to be preapared, cause you can never know!


In my experience, the quickest way to choke a dog off, and still maintain some semblence of control;

1. If leashed, grab the leash as short as possible with your right hand, if right handed. 

2. If not leashed, grab the collar/choker etc.

3. With the left hand grab the dogs throat with the thumb and forefinger. 
NOTE: I'll describe, best I can the proper placement of the thumb and forefinger

a. If you take your thumb and forefinger up to your own throat about center of the throat so you can feel the "windpipe". If you spread your finger and thumb wide enough and push slightly all the way back to the sides of the "windpipe" ( I just hate using the word esophagus) you will feel, on each side what feels like a little wedge cut out of the windpipe. when you find that on yourself, the dog has the same thing, in about the same location. 

b. when you find that location on your throat, just apply slight pressure. YOu'll see why that is a great place to grad.

4. Grab that location on the offending dog and try to make your finger and thumb meet. The dog will release the bite. Often times, the dog is really going to be pissed, particularly if it's not your dog. You can chose to maintain that grip until the dog is unconscious, or if it's your dog I've found throwing the dog away from you and then immediately giving it a command usually works. In any case, be ready to defend yourself. This is was we used to teach every MWD handler for removing dogs that wouldn't release on a human or another dog, while minimzing the damage to the offended person/animal. It works.

DFrost


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

David Frost said:


> In my experience, the quickest way to choke a dog off, and still maintain some semblence of control;
> 
> 1. If leashed, grab the leash as short as possible with your right hand, if right handed.
> 
> ...


 
WOW, Dave you got a thesis paper on this.... LOL

I have seen this attempted and used different places, but alot of times that doesn't work and dog redirects and control is of the essence........


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

When we were trying to retrain all the remaining sentry dogs into patrol dogs, (69 - 70) this was the standard. My experiences differ than yours. It was very effective. When done correctly, the dog will always come off. He may be unconscious, but he will come off. Redirected aggression is always a problem, particularly with a dog that is, well ----- aggressive enough to have to be choked off in the first place. 
It's how I removed the wolf from me when I was attacked. Fortunately, I was able to get him into a stupor. It's very effective.

DFrost


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Kadi, Just asking so please dont get offensive by this question. But why choke off a dog differently for one way or another? If a dog needs to be choked off then a dog needs to be choked off, obviously the dog has a problem with outting.


No offense taken  Like I said in my post, some people "choke" a dog off the bite to build frustration and drive. So the goal isn't actually to get the dog off as fast as possible, but to drag it out so the dog is really fighting to hang on to what they have. When this is being done it's not usually an out problem, since the handler may not have even said "out", it's a drive building/frustration technique. It's not something I use much, if ever, but I have seen people use it on dogs successfully. 

No point in answering the OPs question if I don't know what the goal is, especially since they mentioned both choking and lifting off, so I asked.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

David Frost said:


> When we were trying to retrain all the remaining sentry dogs into patrol dogs, (69 - 70) this was the standard. My experiences differ than yours. It was very effective. When done correctly, the dog will always come off. He may be unconscious, but he will come off. Redirected aggression is always a problem, particularly with a dog that is, well ----- aggressive enough to have to be choked off in the first place.
> It's how I removed the wolf from me when I was attacked. Fortunately, I was able to get him into a stupor. It's very effective.
> 
> DFrost


 
Good Deal, whatever is effective and doesn't cause the animal injury or a bad experience I am game with. Oh I agree redirect is always something to look for...I personally like those dogs!!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I want to hear the wolf story.:razz: It's still on topic.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> I want to hear the wolf story.:razz: It's still on topic.


Oh good. Someone else said it. :lol:

Me too, please.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh good. Someone else said it. :lol:
> 
> Me too, please.


ME TOO! Got pics?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

David Frost said:


> In my experience, the quickest way to choke a dog off, and still maintain some semblence of control;
> 
> 1. If leashed, grab the leash as short as possible with your right hand, if right handed.
> 
> ...


David have seen it done in NY by some friends of what you are talking about. I attempted it and if it wasn't for the fact of bite pants on I would of lost a butt cheek ( I know funny but its not ). Problem was exactly what you said the redirection of energy. Thats why I choke off and find the method used now that I described above to be by bar none the best method. With the collar up high I can control the dog ( 95% of them ) thrashing by the back of the collar from turning and let the glaze from their eyes diappear and come back to earth. I have two dutchies here one being my KNPV male and Mother of these pups here. If you were to choke them off and not put them sleep before throwing the dog you stated to the side a command from you or somebody else is not going to cut it and its going to be a moments notice before you fall on bad times with one of these two. Thats why I prefer the method, thats just me though. The part of choking off like you would choke out a human works like a charm I'll give you that but I dont want the freedom giving back immediately to a dog that is going to redirect right back on your butt.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The wolf story. In '72 I was working on a classified project that included a Timber Wolf. The wolf was captured at approximately 8 weeks old and transported to the research facility. They (the lead researcher, a phd behaviorist and Veterinarian) approximated the age at 12 weeks. For several months it was nothing but rapport building, basic obediance and exercises to acclimate the wolf to be used in an evironmental chamber. I was training the wolf to "sniff" a specific pattern of ceramic funnels that were placed inside the chamber. After about a year, where I thought we had a decent rapport and things were moving along fairly decent the incident happened. I had the wolf out, doing some regular exercises. Nothing at the time, that I thought was stressful. None of the exercises were new to the wolf. I had him out of his kennel for about 2.5 hours. As per my normal routine, I returned him to his kennel and unsnapped the leash. He walked to the corner of his kennel, which was about 15 x 15 and layed down. I filled his water bucket. I walked over to him, revmoved the choker from around his neck, patted him on top of the heat and started walking toward the kennel door. Before I got to the door, he hit me from behind on the right forearm. The first hit, broke the ulna. The right "canine" tooth penetrated the radius and the wolf clamped down like a vise. I "thankfully" really didn't think about what was happening. I raised my right arm as high as I could and grabbed the wolf's throat with my left hand, as I described in the "choking off" thread. After, what seemed like an eternity, but probably 30 to 45 seconds, the wolf was semi-conscious, and released. I threw him away from me and he landed on his side. I leaned against his dog house to try and catch my breath and make sure I hadn't left something on the ground I might slip on. I gathered enough strength to exit his kennel and secure the door with the padlock. the rest of the story is just me going to the emergency room. I really wasn't scared, until after it was over, then I was sick to my stomach, the adrenalin dump left me weak in the knees. I was on light duty for nearly a year. The first surgery (I've had two) was over a year after the incident. They tried a female handler after I was injured. The wolf wouldn't even let her in the cage. They tried another male handler, the wolf would allow him in the cage, but he could never approach him. When I returned to duty, they asked me if I would try. I really didn't want to, but told them I would IF someone stood by with the high pressure hose and a rifle. they agreed. I did get in the cage, I could lean against his house and talk to him. He even showed signs of recognition. When I tried to approach him he would raise his lip and lower his shoulders. I punked out and told them; that's it, I'm done. Fang (the wolf's name) was donated and lived out a fairly long life at the San Antonio Zoo. I never worked another wolf. ha ha. 
True story the only thing truly glossed over was the fear I felt after the attack. 

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Holy crap.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Damn David,

If I didn't know better. I'd conclude that Wolves (and wolf hybrids?) are unstable and dangerous to train? :-(






David Frost said:


> The wolf story. In '72 I was working on a classified project that included a Timber Wolf. The wolf was captured at approximately 8 weeks old and transported to the research facility. They (the lead researcher, a phd behaviorist and Veterinarian) approximated the age at 12 weeks. For several months it was nothing but rapport building, basic obediance and exercises to acclimate the wolf to be used in an evironmental chamber. I was training the wolf to "sniff" a specific pattern of ceramic funnels that were placed inside the chamber. After about a year, where I thought we had a decent rapport and things were moving along fairly decent the incident happened. I had the wolf out, doing some regular exercises. Nothing at the time, that I thought was stressful. None of the exercises were new to the wolf. I had him out of his kennel for about 2.5 hours. As per my normal routine, I returned him to his kennel and unsnapped the leash. He walked to the corner of his kennel, which was about 15 x 15 and layed down. I filled his water bucket. I walked over to him, revmoved the choker from around his neck, patted him on top of the heat and started walking toward the kennel door. Before I got to the door, he hit me from behind on the right forearm. The first hit, broke the ulna. The right "canine" tooth penetrated the radius and the wolf clamped down like a vise. I "thankfully" really didn't think about what was happening. I raised my right arm as high as I could and grabbed the wolf's throat with my left hand, as I described in the "choking off" thread. After, what seemed like an eternity, but probably 30 to 45 seconds, the wolf was semi-conscious, and released. I threw him away from me and he landed on his side. I leaned against his dog house to try and catch my breath and make sure I hadn't left something on the ground I might slip on. I gathered enough strength to exit his kennel and secure the door with the padlock. the rest of the story is just me going to the emergency room. I really wasn't scared, until after it was over, then I was sick to my stomach, the adrenalin dump left me weak in the knees. I was on light duty for nearly a year. The first surgery (I've had two) was over a year after the incident. They tried a female handler after I was injured. The wolf wouldn't even let her in the cage. They tried another male handler, the wolf would allow him in the cage, but he could never approach him. When I returned to duty, they asked me if I would try. I really didn't want to, but told them I would IF someone stood by with the high pressure hose and a rifle. they agreed. I did get in the cage, I could lean against his house and talk to him. He even showed signs of recognition. When I tried to approach him he would raise his lip and lower his shoulders. I punked out and told them; that's it, I'm done. Fang (the wolf's name) was donated and lived out a fairly long life at the San Antonio Zoo. I never worked another wolf. ha ha.
> True story the only thing truly glossed over was the fear I felt after the attack.
> 
> DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> If I didn't know better. I'd conclude that Wolves (and wolf hybrids?) are unstable and dangerous to train? :-(




My "research" has an N of 1. None-the-less, that is also my conclusion.

DFrost


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Wow.

Intense (the story, plus maybe the scars).


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thanks David. That was a good un:razz:


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Isn't there a better method then choking your own dog. He's suppose to be the good guy on your team.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have choked a lot of dogs off of each other over the years. It has to be done quick because they always have each other by the face or part of the head and one or the other is doing that death shake. The males simply will not turn on me so I don't have to worry about that (Females are a whole different story and can be scary) but I do have to worry about the other dog coming and grabbing the dog I just choked off so I need to have one hand free to hold the cattle prod. I come up behind the the dog with the grip that need to be broke off first and grab the collar from the back and give it a half turn. I don't know of it works very well with a flat collar but all I use are center ring collars which lend themselves to twisting like this. Because of the long muzzles and teeth, I have to get them to open their mouth all the way before extricating them from the other dogs face while fending the other from attacking with the cattle prod. Many times they will both have hold of each other which requires you have total control of the dog being choked while using the prod to keep the other from regripping as the first eases up to open his mouth.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> Isn't there a better method then choking your own dog. He's suppose to be the good guy on your team.


 

:?:](*,)


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