# DS & Malis ?



## Chris McDonald

Every once in a while on here I will read about a litter having Malis and Dutch dogs mixed in it. Then there is the reoccurring question of what is the difference between DS and Malis. I don’t know if there is a definite answer to this question or if every answer is just an opinion. 
So my questions here are
· Has anyone ever really seen DS and Malis mixed in a litter? Got pictures?
· If so can it happen from lines that have been thought to DS or Malis for many generations? Meaning if you had a male DS and a female DS that are known not to have been crossed with a Mali for many generations can they still have a Mali and vice versa. Im sure this question can be much more technical than my laymen talk but you should kina know what im getting at. 

I really don’t know but I really have a hard time believing the only difference is strips. But if someone says that they have had a DS line that had never had any tan dog in it but one day had a tan dog in a litter than maybe they are they are more the same than I thought.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

yes , wil search for the pic

last year in the Tessa x Wibo litter we had 2 mali females. Both parents are brindle, Wibo is xHH/MH

www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=16164#

better than a pic, a vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCgxkTyn7yo


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## Kadi Thingvall

Chris McDonald said:


> · Has anyone ever really seen DS and Malis mixed in a litter? Got pictures?


Yes, and No, but if you look on the internet there are plenty of photos of litters showing mixed colors. You'll have better luck if you google for photos of DS litters, since if there are some brindles and fawns they seem to call them DS litters, if they are all fawns then they call them Malinois litters.


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## Chris McDonald

Thanks for keeping it simple Selena! But now im really confused, now I really dont know what to think. There has to be some kind of math to this genetics thing ill never know. 
So if you breed an all black GS to an all black GS and get half black and tans and half all black pups you still got all GS. But if you breed a striped DS to a striped DS and get some all tan pups the DS just turned into Malis. im so confused. 
· Have you ever breed two striped dogs and had all tan dogs? or vice versa
· And is a DS and Mali cross really a cross if it’s already a cross? I mean really 
Pictures would be cool to see but don’t go crazy looking I believe you, the picture thing was geared towards some others I wouldn’t believe. And pictures probably wouldn’t make me believe them anyway


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## Joby Becker

The knpv lines can throw either...I know that...
lots of litters come up with both tan an striped. My dog is out of a litter that had both..
When I was at Mike's the first time he showed me about 5-6 young dogs, a few tan, a few striped. I asked who were the parents of the dogs, they were all out of the same litter..
These types of dogs are considered the same by the dutch, except for color. But they are not pedigreed like dogs from other programs. 

I am not 100%, but I think 2 "mali" dogs can only produce Mali pups..
2 brindle dogs can produce "mali" or striped, as well as breeding maliX striped...

the knpv dogs are considered crosses anyhow...

I think when you are talking other types of Malis and DS, there is a difference...

these are from Mike's site..litters with both.
http://www.youtube.com/user/loganhauskennels#p/u/19/-vof1UwQ6Ss
http://www.youtube.com/user/loganhauskennels#p/u/62/aiuC0Yi_xhI


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## Joby Becker

Chris McDonald said:


> But if someone says that they have had a DS line that had never had any tan dog in it but one day had a tan dog in a litter than maybe they are they are more the same than I thought. [/FONT][/SIZE]


I am sure there are plenty of tan dog lines that never had striped dogs in them...

I do wonder how many striped dogs never had tan dogs in them..my guess is not many...


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## Chris McDonald

I am not 100%, but I think 2 "mali" dogs can only produce Mali pups..
2 brindle dogs can produce "mali" or striped, as well as breeding maliX striped...


I heard something like this too. This whole thread is just going to make me more confused.


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## Joby Becker

Chris McDonald said:


> I am not 100%, but I think 2 "mali" dogs can only produce Mali pups..
> 2 brindle dogs can produce "mali" or striped, as well as breeding maliX striped...
> 
> 
> I heard something like this too. This whole thread is just going to make me more confused.


my guess is if FCI or papered dutchie's throw tan pups, they rarely make it out of the kennel. that would imply impurity...:roll::roll::roll:


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## Chris McDonald

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Yes, and No, but if you look on the internet there are plenty of photos of litters showing mixed colors. You'll have better luck if you google for photos of DS litters, since if there are some brindles and fawns they seem to call them DS litters, if they are all fawns then they call them Malinois litters.


 
If the coloring wasn’t almost all tan I kinda just thought it was a cross. I was thinking to myself that fairly distinctive tan was a mali, fairly distinctive strips was a DS and anything in between was a cross. But at least now I really don’t know what to think, I am clear on that! Or maybe there all crosses? But then the cross would be its own breed by now. So if everything is a cross than there really is no such thing a DS or a Mali and no one knows what they have. Ya that’s it, I got it all figured out now.


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## Guest

How come when you breed a GSD and a Lab (accidental of course) you get mixes, they look like mixes, not like either breed, but when you breed a malinois and a Dutch Shepherd, you only get one or the other? You don't get a mix or is it a mix?


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## Chris McDonald

Jody Butler said:


> How come when you breed a GSD and a Lab (accidental of course) you get mixes, they look like mixes, not like either breed, but when you breed a malinois and a Dutch Shepherd, you only get one or the other? You don't get a mix or is it a mix?


 
Ya, how come


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## Joby Becker

different breeds but
I have had some litters of Presa Canario.
2 fawns throw fawns.
2 brindles throw brindles, with possibility of fawns
1 fawn 1 brindle can throw mixed.

same goes for boxers, pits, mastiffs, bullmasitffs, or any other brindle dog...

they could split those breeds as well...if the desire was there...

if the brindle is BB and is crossed with brindle BB dog, you will set the brindle color...

like I said I doubt many striped dogs are without tan dogs in the mix somewhere, it just depends on if those brindle genes are homozygous......


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jody Butler said:


> How come when you breed a GSD and a Lab (accidental of course) you get mixes, they look like mixes, not like either breed,


Because there are quite a few differences in the physical appearance of GSD and Lab other then just coat color. There are also more color patterns/genetics at play.



> but when you breed a malinois and a Dutch Shepherd, you only get one or the other?


Because the physical appearance of the two is very similar, and the color genetics work in a way where you get one pattern/color or the other, and not a combination of the two. 



> You don't get a mix or is it a mix?


IMO it's a mix. I think even in the KNPV they recognize that, don't they put X-Hollandes Herder and x-Mechelse Herder on the KNPV certificates?


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## Guest

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Because there are quite a few differences in the physical appearance of GSD and Lab other then just coat color. There are also more color patterns/genetics at play.
> 
> 
> 
> Because the physical appearance of the two is very similar, and the color genetics work in a way where you get one pattern/color or the other, and not a combination of the two.
> 
> 
> IMO it's a mix. I think even in the KNPV they recognize that, don't they put X-Hollandes Herder and x-Mechelse Herder on the KNPV certificates?


 
Oh I know, I am just throwing out other things to look at LOL


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## Nick Jenkins

just genetics brindle require the at least one brindle gene at the K locus, it is dominant to fawn so a fawn dog does not have the brindle gene thus two fawns cannot have a brindle. A dog can have the brindle gene but not be brindle because it must also have the correct allele at the E locus. 

example a black dog X fawn dog could possibly have all black, some black some brindle, or some black and some fawn.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Dutchies and mali's came from the same genes. That's why there alike in appareance.
Brindle is a pattern, not a colour like fawn/tan.

x HH= brindled dog
x MH= fawn dog

xHH/MH=brindled dog from a mali parent and a brindle parent

xMH/HH=fawn dog from a a mali parent and a brindle parent

there are all "x" 'cause they don't have FCI papers.

we usually breed with both brindle parents (exception were Anne (x black malinois/xHH out of a x black mal x xHH and Donna (xmal)). Except from above mentioned litter we haven't had mali's from brindle x brindle. Brindle is a dominant pattern.

From 2 brindles we have had brindled blues. Blue is a dilute from black, recesive gene and only comes out if both parents carries the recesive gene.
In the Anne litters (x black malinois/xHH) we have had blacks, some with a vague brindle pattern but mostly covered by the dominant black colour.


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## Joby Becker

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Dutchies and mali's came from the same genes. That's why there alike in appareance.
> Brindle is a pattern, not a colour like fawn/tan.
> 
> x HH= brindled dog
> x MH= fawn dog
> 
> xHH/MH=brindled dog from a mali parent and a brindle parent
> 
> xMH/HH=fawn dog from a a mali parent and a brindle parent
> 
> there are all "x" 'cause they don't have FCI papers.
> 
> we usually breed with both brindle parents (exception were Anne (x black malinois/xHH out of a x black mal x xHH and Donna (xmal)). Except from above mentioned litter we haven't had mali's from brindle x brindle. Brindle is a dominant pattern.
> 
> From 2 brindles we have had brindled blues. Blue is a dilute from black, recesive gene and only comes out if both parents carries the recesive gene.
> In the Anne litters (x black malinois/xHH) we have had blacks, some with a vague brindle pattern but mostly covered by the dominant black colour.


in the FCI dutchie, are those dogs all descended from brindle dogs?


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## Chris McDonald

Nick and Selena are kinda clearing things up for me. I don’t know if Joby is hurting, helping me yet. :razz:
Now do the colors of these dogs kind of contribute to their temperament? Kind of like the differences of an all black GS or a black and tan GS or an all white GS?


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## Guest

Chris McDonald said:


> Nick and Selena are kinda clearing things up for me. I don’t know if Joby is hurting, helping me yet. :razz:
> Now do the colors of these dogs kind of contribute to their temperament? Kind of like the differences of an all black GS or a black and tan GS or an all white GS?


Seriously?


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## Joby Becker

Color having effect on temperament?? I was told by a rottie breeder once that the rotties with white flash are smarter...of course this breeder had pups with white flashes on them...LOL


Here are 2 pedigree, again these are considered X, because they are...

Arko 
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=4618

Carlos and Wibo
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=11073&METANAME=Carlos(Dhr.M.Suttle, Lewisburg,WV,USA)#


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## Nick Jenkins

I don't think there is any concrete evidence of color on temperament but there is some argument especially with red coloration like in a chocolate lab or vizsla. But if there is a connection it is most likely correlation not causation the gene would happen to be close to a gene influencing temperament and so they have a higher likelihood of sticking together, rather than the color CAUSING the temperament.


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## Chris McDonald

See what your getting at.. I didn’t mean the color caused the temperament. But you see what I am getting at


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Joby Becker said:


> in the FCI dutchie, are those dogs all descended from brindle dogs?


 yes, if the bloodline on paper is the actual bloodline.

Only in the longhaird version of the FCI Hollandse Herder there are yellow dogs, they are registrated as not acknowledge colour.


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## Nick Jenkins

yeah I know what your saying. I dont know much about mal and dutchie breeding but if you are breeding for a particular temperament and don't care about color and have mostly mixed litters I would doubt there would be a consistent difference between pups of different colors.

Anyone with personal experience?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Joby Becker said:


> Color having effect on temperament?? I was told by a rottie breeder once that the rotties with white flash are smarter...of course this breeder had pups with white flashes on them...LOL
> 
> 
> Here are 2 pedigree, again these are considered X, because they are...
> 
> Arko
> http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=4618
> 
> Carlos and Wibo
> http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=11073&METANAME=Carlos(Dhr.M.Suttle, Lewisburg,WV,USA)#


Arko, Carlos and Wibo are all xHH/xMH. Brindled dog with a brindle and a mali parent.


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## Chris McDonald

Nick, Im pretty sure most on here really don’t care about colors and I think most would say there is a difference in GS colors and temperament to some degree, but I don’t know about DS or Malis?


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## John Campbell

It seems that the english translantion of KNPV is MUTT. The KNPV breeding programs are intrested in traits not looks and have introducted MAL's into the mix to keep the gene pool from becoming to shallow. looking at the differance between FCI and KNPV Dutch Shepherds shows that many MAL trains have been transferred to the DS or have they just transferred the color to the MAL? Im sure the debate will continue.


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## Gerry Grimwood

John Campbell said:


> It seems that the english translantion of KNPV is MUTT. The KNPV breeding programs are intrested in traits not looks and have introducted MAL's into the mix to keep the gene pool from becoming to shallow. looking at the differance between FCI and KNPV Dutch Shepherds shows that many MAL trains have been transferred to the DS or have they just transferred the color to the MAL? Im sure the debate will continue.


All dogs are mutts until some governing body says otherwise, did you think dogs just appeared as purebred ?

Labradoodles will be purebred dogs soon I bet, maybe they already are.


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## John Campbell

Gerry Grimwood said:


> All dogs are mutts until some governing body says otherwise, did you think dogs just appeared as purebred ?
> 
> Labradoodles will be purebred dogs soon I bet, maybe they already are.


The point was that the KNPV does not look at bloodline other than to look at past traits in regards to performance. Looks have nothing to do with it. If you would like to have a further discussion on selective breeding to reproduce genetic defects (AKC) that would be another thread.


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## Guest

So what is it when the dog is solid black except for the legs are dark brindle? Head, body, tail solid black and legs brindle? 

Black Mal or DS?


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## Derek Milliken

Since we're talking coat color in mals, I have a question that people on here might be able to help with.
Is the mal color pattern (fawn with black tips) really a color pattern, or is it a lack of full coloration, the way it is in some breeds of cats, siamese etc.
If you look at the "tips" in some mals they look very black, some look almost brindled, some have almost no "tips" at all. And since it's the recessive color pattern when compared to black or brindle, this would make sense.
Maybe some of the bigger breeders can help with this? Kadi? Selena?
Thanks,
Derek


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## Derek Milliken

And of course, I should have included Martine in that group.


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## Christopher Jones

The gsd, mali and Dutchie all go back to common lines before humans split them. I have seen pedigree GSDs that are fawn like a Mali and pedigree Malis that have a GSD sadle and others that are bi colour. And as the Terv breeders outcrossed to Collies you can see the Collie dog head in some pedigreed Malis and Tervs. 
I call the KNPV and NVBK dogs unregistered rather than cross because so many of the FCI pedigreed dogs have these bloodlines in them amyway, and the Dutchie still has open stud books in Europe.


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## Joby Becker

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Arko, Carlos and Wibo are all xHH/xMH. Brindled dog with a brindle and a mali parent.


I did know that, not sure why I posted it here..LOL...maybe to confuse Chris more...was not thinking again...


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## Kadi Thingvall

This is a pretty good article on coat/color genetics in the Belgian Shepherds. It also mentions brindle.

http://www.bsca.info/research/DNAtesting.pdf

As far as the color pattern goes, everything I've read is that it is a pattern. That's one of the issues with the Tervs from Groen's, in a solid black dog you can't tell if they have the proper masking patterns or not, so when they produce fawn/black offspring, the masking may not be correct.

This is another good website regarding coat colors in general, not specific to any one breed.
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/black.htm The main index of links and information on various colors and patterns is at http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/index.htm


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## Pete Stevens

Ahhh yes Kadi brings up a good point with the Groenendaels. Often referred to as a "black Mailinios" and so far I'm beyond confused. That is one thing I do like about KNPV dogs, they may be ugly, small, and have odd coloring but they don't care. How the dog performs is what counts.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Pete Stevens said:


> Ahhh yes Kadi brings up a good point with the Groenendaels. Often referred to as a "black Mailinios" and so far I'm beyond confused.


The Groenendaels are the long haired all black dogs. It's the short haired all black dogs which people will call "black Malinois". Which isn't correct, or any more correct then calling them "short haired Groenendaels". The Malinois is the short coated, fawn/black mask variety of the Belgian Shepherd. There is no variety name for the short coated black dogs. Just like the Laekenois is the wire coated fawn/black mask dogs, but if you bred it to a Groen you could get all black wire coated dogs. Which wouldn't be "wirey Groens" or "black Laekens", they would just be Belgian Shepherds with an undetermined variety since they aren't an allowed color.


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## will fernandez

then you could mix those black wire haired dogs with bouvs and really mix it up


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## Daniel Lybbert

So if a DS and a Mal are bred, are they Mals? Is DS a recognized breed in North America? All this Shepard stuff is confusing.


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## Martine Loots

Derek Milliken said:


> And of course, I should have included Martine in that group.



Wouldn't be much of a help as we only have the short haired fawn dogs in the NVBK lines


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## Joby Becker

Daniel Lybbert said:


> So if a DS and a Mal are bred, are they Mals? Is DS a recognized breed in North America? All this Shepard stuff is confusing.


officially, technically, no they are not mals. but as stated in the OP, some people casually refer to the tan offspring of the cross as mali though.


I often tell people that the dog I have is a DS, when it is not technically a DS.

DS is not recognized by the AKC, it has not even made it onto the FSS list. Which is good in my opinion. 

It is recognized by the UKC, and the stud books are still open, which is a good thing in my opinion, if there has to be a registry involved...


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## leslie cassian

Dutch Shepherd is not a breed recognized by the CKC in Canada. Also, the CKC does not consider the Malinois a seperate breed, but a variety of Belgian Shepherd.


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## Daniel Lybbert

The CKC says Belgian Shepherd Dog(Malinois). So would it say Belgian Shepherd Dog (Dutch Shepherd)?


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## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> officially, technically, no they are not mals. but as stated in the OP, some people casually refer to the tan offspring of the cross as mali though.
> 
> 
> I often tell people that the dog I have is a DS, when it is not technically a DS.
> 
> DS is not recognized by the AKC, it has not even made it onto the FSS list. Which is good in my opinion.
> 
> It is recognized by the UKC, and the stud books are still open, which is a good thing in my opinion, if there has to be a registry involved...


 
Its still a malinois, looking at the dog and not any paperwork.


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## Tracey Hughes

Daniel Lybbert said:


> The CKC says Belgian Shepherd Dog(Malinois). So would it say Belgian Shepherd Dog (Dutch Shepherd)?




The Belgian Shepherd dog consists of the Gronendael(LH Black), Laekenois(WH), Malinois(SH) and Tervuren(LH fawn, red, grey). The Dutch Shepherd (FCI reg’d) is a separate breed and is a rare breed in Canada, not a CKC reg’d one. Canada follows Europe with the BSD being the breed with 4 varieties, in the US they are 4 separate breeds.


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## leslie cassian

Daniel Lybbert said:


> The CKC says Belgian Shepherd Dog(Malinois). So would it say Belgian Shepherd Dog (Dutch Shepherd)?


No. If a dog was a fawn DS/Mali x from KNPV lines, it could get a number to trial under the CKC as a BSD - Malinois, but it would not be considered a registered dog for breeding purposes. (I think, anyway) DS owners, like me, are SOL if they want to compete under the CKC. I suspect most DS owners don't care, and if they did, they would have picked a different breed.


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## Joby Becker

Jody Butler said:


> Its still a malinois, looking at the dog and not any paperwork.


yes it is, it is to me, it is to you, it is to a lot of people....but when the paperwork is looked at, many people say different...LOL..the purists, the "breed" "officiality" 

can go round and round on this one...

as in the other post. stating 100% mal in a dog with brindle dogs, and X Malinois throughout the pedigree..

since there is an FCI "official" breed on paper called the Malinois, the concept of Malinois from mixed breedings, just being called Mals, can be confusing..which is evident...

I call them mals and dutchies, unless someone really asks for details of the background...then I say "technically" this or that, because of the "established" FCI breeds...if I feel like talking...blah blah blah...


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## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> yes it is, it is to me, it is to you, it is to a lot of people....but when the paperwork is looked at, many people say different...LOL..the purists, the "breed" "officiality"
> 
> can go round and round on this one...
> 
> as in the other post. stating 100% mal in a dog with brindle dogs, and X Malinois throughout the pedigree..
> 
> since there is an FCI "official" breed on paper called the Malinois, the concept of Malinois from mixed breedings, just being called Mals, can be confusing..which is evident...
> 
> I call them mals and dutchies, unless someone really asks for details of the background...then I say "technically" this or that, because of the "established" FCI breeds...if I feel like talking...blah blah blah...


 
LOL, purists?? They are the only ones to "officially" with papers call the breed the breed? 

I wonder what race am I? If I look far enough back in my lineage I am sure they're are some mixes, but they consider me xxxxx? Who made that call, the doctor?


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## Joby Becker

Jody Butler said:


> LOL, purists?? They are the only ones to "officially" with papers call the breed the breed?
> 
> I wonder what race am I? If I look far enough back in my lineage I am sure they're are some mixes, but they consider me xxxxx? Who made that call, the doctor?


Ok Im beat down...you win...I agree 100%...LOL...

The president IS African American after all...or Black...or what ever is PC these days...


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## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> Ok Im beat down...you win...I agree 100%...LOL...
> 
> The president IS African American after all...or Black...or what ever is PC these days...


NO COMMENT? 

Interesting to here and see all the comments though, makes you think? 

Again, its all Fxxxx Politics.....


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## Joby Becker

Jody Butler said:


> NO COMMENT?
> 
> Interesting to here and see all the comments though, makes you think?
> 
> Again, its all Fxxxx Politics.....


I did comment, I give up... I agree...it is all politics...


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## Guest

:grin:


Joby Becker said:


> I did comment, I give up... I agree...it is all politics...


Nah, I meant me about your president :grin:


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## Joby Becker

Jody Butler said:


> :grin:
> 
> Nah, I meant me about your president :grin:


MY PRESIDENT [email protected]#$%^.. If I thought my dog was tough enough I would send her over to kick your ass, cause I'm soft and weak....lol

I don't care about his race, there a few Black guys I wouldn't mind seeing in the office, he is not one of them...


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## Kadi Thingvall

I think there is more to it then just if they are registered or not. If I breed an FCI Malinois to an NVBK Malinois, even if I don't register the litter they are still Malinois, just unregistered Malinois. If I breed two BYB unregistered GSD together, the pups are GSD, just not registered.

If I breed a GSD to a Malinois, and I get dogs with a lot of angulation, black saddles, etc I don't call them GSD just because they look like one, I call them a mix, Shepawah, etc.

If I breed a Labrador to a Rottweiler, I don't call the all black pups Labs and the black and tan pups Rotts, even if they look like those breeds, I call them mixes. 

If I bred an FCI registered DS to an FCI registered Malinois, I bet most people on here would actually call the offspring mixes.

But if I breed a DS (brindle dog) to a Malinois (fawn dog), suddenly the offspring are a "breed", but different breeds depending on their coat color, even though they are littermates? IMO they are mixes. That doesn't mean they aren't good dogs, just that they are mix breeds.

The DS and Malinois are the only two breeds I'm aware of where if you breed them together, people consider their offspring to be a breed, and not a mix breed. IMO for clarity what should be done is they should be called by a different name. I usually refer to them as "Dutch Malinois", but that's just me.


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## Guest

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think there is more to it then just if they are registered or not. If I breed an FCI Malinois to an NVBK Malinois, even if I don't register the litter they are still Malinois, just unregistered Malinois. If I breed two BYB unregistered GSD together, the pups are GSD, just not registered.
> 
> If I breed a GSD to a Malinois, and I get dogs with a lot of angulation, black saddles, etc I don't call them GSD just because they look like one, I call them a mix, Shepawah, etc.
> 
> If I breed a Labrador to a Rottweiler, I don't call the all black pups Labs and the black and tan pups Rotts, even if they look like those breeds, I call them mixes.
> 
> If I bred an FCI registered DS to an FCI registered Malinois, I bet most people on here would actually call the offspring mixes.
> 
> But if I breed a DS (brindle dog) to a Malinois (fawn dog), suddenly the offspring are a "breed", but different breeds depending on their coat color, even though they are littermates? IMO they are mixes. That doesn't mean they aren't good dogs, just that they are mix breeds.
> 
> The DS and Malinois are the only two breeds I'm aware of where if you breed them together, people consider their offspring to be a breed, and not a mix breed. IMO for clarity what should be done is they should be called by a different name. I usually refer to them as "Dutch Malinois", but that's just me.


Yeah, I here you, thats what I was trying to say yesterday, I really could care less, but another question, doesn't the registries that recognize the malinois, is it just the Belgian Malinois or Malinois in general? Then what is the difference? Considering the DM is just an unregistered (most of the time anyway) Malinois. Or French Malinois......This can go on forever, from a number of angles..


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## Guest

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think there is more to it then just if they are registered or not. If I breed an FCI Malinois to an NVBK Malinois, even if I don't register the litter they are still Malinois, just unregistered Malinois. If I breed two BYB unregistered GSD together, the pups are GSD, just not registered.
> 
> If I breed a GSD to a Malinois, and I get dogs with a lot of angulation, black saddles, etc I don't call them GSD just because they look like one, I call them a mix, Shepawah, etc.
> 
> If I breed a Labrador to a Rottweiler, I don't call the all black pups Labs and the black and tan pups Rotts, even if they look like those breeds, I call them mixes.
> 
> If I bred an FCI registered DS to an FCI registered Malinois, I bet most people on here would actually call the offspring mixes.
> 
> But if I breed a DS (brindle dog) to a Malinois (fawn dog), suddenly the offspring are a "breed", but different breeds depending on their coat color, even though they are littermates? IMO they are mixes. That doesn't mean they aren't good dogs, just that they are mix breeds.
> 
> The DS and Malinois are the only two breeds I'm aware of where if you breed them together, people consider their offspring to be a breed, and not a mix breed. IMO for clarity what should be done is they should be called by a different name. I usually refer to them as "Dutch Malinois", but that's just me.


 
Almost like Labs with colors, its the look rather than a breed. The lines can make the look change over time. 
malinois with stripes, now known as DS


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

why do youi think I keep call them xHH?!??


black mal = xmh with black coat which go back to a famous groendaler in the mid 70's: Andor van IJsselvloed.


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## andreas broqvist

Terv with Mali = Terv if its long haird and Mali if its Short hair. If you breed mali with gronendal the black longhaird is Gronendal, The brown longhaird is terv and the shortharid fawn is mali. And also the same if you use lakee.

So it culd be almost the same with DS 
I gess a working DS and a Working mali is mor alike in temprament and look than a Working mali and a terv


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## Kadi Thingvall

andreas broqvist said:


> Terv with Mali = Terv if its long haird and Mali if its Short hair. If you breed mali with gronendal the black longhaird is Gronendal, The brown longhaird is terv and the shortharid fawn is mali. And also the same if you use lakee.
> 
> So it culd be almost the same with DS


Not really, because a Terv, Groen, Laeken and Malinois are just names for different varieties of the same breed. Like saying Yellow Lab, Black Lab or Chocolate Lab. They are all Labrador Retriever's, just a different name for the different colors. Or a Sable GSD, Black and Tan GSD, etc. Main difference with the Belgians is people tend to refer to them by their variety name (Malinois, Groenendael, etc) more often then the full name Belgian Shepherd Dog - Malinois. 



> I gess a working DS and a Working mali is mor alike in temprament and look than a Working mali and a terv


I can agree with this, unless we are talking a Terv out of Malinois parents


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## Kadi Thingvall

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> why do youi think I keep call them xHH?!??


I've noticed the Dutch call them xHH, xMH, etc. It just seems to be somewhere over the ocean the x gets lost, and they become MH and HH here in the US.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

that's what cause a lot of confusion I think. KNPV bloodlines are always x, no papers.


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## mike suttle

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've noticed the Dutch call them xHH, xMH, etc. It just seems to be somewhere over the ocean the x gets lost, and they become MH and HH here in the US.


if they are from real KNPV bloodlines, they are all "X" s of some kind, that is a given.


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## Kadi Thingvall

mike suttle said:


> if they are from real KNPV bloodlines, they are all "X" s of some kind, that is a given.


That's kind of my point, they are all X's, but once they arrive in the US people tend to want to say they are a specific breed, and not an X.

If I'm in Holland standing around talking to a bunch of KNPV people and I mention I have a Malinois, or a DS, they know I'm talking about an X. Here in the US you say you have a Malinois, people are going to assume it's a purebred Malinois, usually with FCI/AKC papers. DS not so much because they aren't registered here, and most people in DS realize they are X's. Most, not all, I've met more than one person with a DS who has no idea what the dogs behind their dog are.


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## Bob Scott

The difference is no different then a number of the terrier breeds.
Example
The Smooth Fox terrier and the Wire fox terrier were variations in one breed before about 1935-36. Then the became two separate breeds by choice. Same with the Norfolk and Norwich terriers, the Carin and Westy and a few others. 
All "breeds" are man made. Nothing more then selecting for individual traits, physical and well as behavioral.
This "selection" is originally more about geography then selecting for a given look. 
Every area of the world had their herding, hunting, guarding type dog, etc.
As the world became more mobile, then people started "developing" breeds. 
Border terriers were from the border area between Scotland and England. Scottish Terriers were from DUH!
The Collie was a TYPE of dog that herded the coli (sp) sheep. It wasn't until folks got hung up on pretty that separate breeds were "developed". Before that they were just terriers from the border area or the herders from Scotland or the herders from Germany, Belgium, etc.
People bred to the dogs in their town by selecting the dog that was best for the job OR by a dominant roamer in the village:-o. The inability of easy travel created "types" of dogs pertaining to a certain area
and use.
The Victorian era is when we really started designating "breeds". The show world is responsible for that. Until that time we had herding, hunting, guarding, etc dogs that were from England, Germany, Belgium, etc. 
Then it would be more correct to refer to them as Belgian "type" herding dogs that could throw long coated dogs, light coated dogs, dark coated dogs, rough coated dogs that could show up in one litter. No one gave a crap if it did the job. 
Just to add a bit more fire. ALL breeds started out very inbred because of the inability to travel. It was only the dogs that functioned for what was needed that survived. 
I wouldn't be supprised if in some areas of the world the non functional dogs weren't the guest of honor at the dinner table. :-o :-# :twisted:


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## Christopher Jones

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think there is more to it then just if they are registered or not. If I breed an FCI Malinois to an NVBK Malinois, even if I don't register the litter they are still Malinois, just unregistered Malinois. If I breed two BYB unregistered GSD together, the pups are GSD, just not registered.
> 
> If I breed a GSD to a Malinois, and I get dogs with a lot of angulation, black saddles, etc I don't call them GSD just because they look like one, I call them a mix, Shepawah, etc.
> 
> If I breed a Labrador to a Rottweiler, I don't call the all black pups Labs and the black and tan pups Rotts, even if they look like those breeds, I call them mixes.
> 
> If I bred an FCI registered DS to an FCI registered Malinois, I bet most people on here would actually call the offspring mixes.
> 
> But if I breed a DS (brindle dog) to a Malinois (fawn dog), suddenly the offspring are a "breed", but different breeds depending on their coat color, even though they are littermates? IMO they are mixes. That doesn't mean they aren't good dogs, just that they are mix breeds.
> 
> The DS and Malinois are the only two breeds I'm aware of where if you breed them together, people consider their offspring to be a breed, and not a mix breed. IMO for clarity what should be done is they should be called by a different name. I usually refer to them as "Dutch Malinois", but that's just me.


Then you need to go down to the AKC and hand in your pedigrees, because you have xMalis (be they KNPV or NVBK) in your bloodlines. Your AKC pedigrees are inncorect and you need to fess up and take them off the system.


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## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> why do youi think I keep call them xHH?!??
> 
> 
> black mal = xmh with black coat which go back to a famous groendaler in the mid 70's: Andor van IJsselvloed.


Take your xHH to Belgium, go through the DS club there and get them on the FCI pedigree system. Then these mix dogs suddenly change and become purebred. Its amazing really.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

also inGermany, books are/were open. they get a f0 gen ped, only after -i think- 3 gens they have a "full" ped.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Jones said:


> Then you need to go down to the AKC and hand in your pedigrees, because you have xMalis (be they KNPV or NVBK) in your bloodlines.


Actually there is a difference between having one Malinois substituted for another in a pedigree (NVBK), and having a mix breed substituted for a Malinois in a pedigree (KNPV).



> Your AKC pedigrees are inncorect and you need to fess up and take them off the system.


AKC doesn't really care, their stance with imports is that they will accept the pedigree from the country of origin as correct. If you want to change/fix/whatever that, you need to go back to the country of origin, have it corrected there, then take that back to AKC. 

Considering how freely things are discussed on the WWW I'd be shocked if AKC wasn't aware of the situation with the Malinois, but is taking a "head in the sand" approach. Don't ask, don't tell. And even if they are told they still don't want to know. Perfect example, a couple of years ago some people in FL, for purely personal reasons, told AKC about a dog with falsified papers (a well known Malinois stud dog from the NVBK, who when he was imported was given AKC papers). AKC did a "lip service" investigation then said "not our problem". They have been sued in the past for pulling papers on dogs, so they are much slower to jump into that situation again, and would prefer to just ignore it whenever possible.


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## Christopher Jones

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually there is a difference between having one Malinois substituted for another in a pedigree (NVBK), and having a mix breed substituted for a Malinois in a pedigree (KNPV).
> 
> 
> 
> AKC doesn't really care, their stance with imports is that they will accept the pedigree from the country of origin as correct. If you want to change/fix/whatever that, you need to go back to the country of origin, have it corrected there, then take that back to AKC.
> 
> Considering how freely things are discussed on the WWW I'd be shocked if AKC wasn't aware of the situation with the Malinois, but is taking a "head in the sand" approach. Don't ask, don't tell. And even if they are told they still don't want to know. Perfect example, a couple of years ago some people in FL, for purely personal reasons, told AKC about a dog with falsified papers (a well known Malinois stud dog from the NVBK, who when he was imported was given AKC papers). AKC did a "lip service" investigation then said "not our problem". They have been sued in the past for pulling papers on dogs, so they are much slower to jump into that situation again, and would prefer to just ignore it whenever possible.


You cant cherry pick it Kadi. Every single xMali and X Dutchie in the KNPV can get NVBK pedigrees. And not all NVBK Malis are "pure" either. Bart Bellon in his Mike Ellis interview said one of his NVBK dogs was xmali and GSD. 
The fairytale is that everything outside the FCI/AKC pedigree system is a mongrel, and everything in it is pure. But thats just not the reality. I know of so many xMH and xDS that have FCI papers, and the same with NVBK dogs. I know of FCI Malis that have Dutch Shepherds as fathers (Rudie Pegge offspring) 
The last thing people with pedigreed Malis and Dutchies should do is try and say their dogs are pure and the ones without pedigrees are mongrel crosses.


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## will fernandez

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> also inGermany, books are/were open. they get a f0 gen ped, only after -i think- 3 gens they have a "full" ped.


aha....that explains why so many germans are into the xHH..noticed there are quite a few breeders now.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Jones said:


> You cant cherry pick it Kadi. Every single xMali and X Dutchie in the KNPV can get NVBK pedigrees.


Maybe they can, I'm not that "up" on NVBK to know. But I believe it was Martine who recently made the comment that she doesn't know a single breeder in the NVBK who uses KNPV dogs in their breedings. So even if they can get NVBK pedigrees, I don't think it's as common as you are implying, or that every NVBK dog out there has an xHH or xMH in it's background.


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## Joby Becker

I am looking at a well known dog breeder in michigan with multiple working breeds website right now...

The quote is:

"when searching for a Dutch Shepherd, you will find a variety of breeders, most of whom are breeding strictly for performance. Thus, the dogs that they produce, while “striped” on the outside, are much more like a Malinois on the inside! *We have chosen to utilize only the best, purebred registered Dutch Shepherds in our breeding program..*"

and 3 generations back in the ped of their stud is Jayder From Lobsters Home...LOL


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## Chris McDonald

I just want to thank everyone for clearing it up for me and I hope nobody named Jopy ever becomes a member


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris McDonald said:


> I just want to thank everyone for clearing it up for me and I hope nobody named Jopy ever becomes a member


:lol:...Now you know that Fellatio will be on that like a fat kid on a peice of cake.


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## Christopher Jones

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Maybe they can, I'm not that "up" on NVBK to know. But I believe it was Martine who recently made the comment that she doesn't know a single breeder in the NVBK who uses KNPV dogs in their breedings. So even if they can get NVBK pedigrees, I don't think it's as common as you are implying, or that every NVBK dog out there has an xHH or xMH in it's background.


The nvbk is an open registry, so knpv dogs can be added to it. Berry 2 is just one dog on it. Dominque on this forum has a knpv female that he does nvbk with so I assume she will be nvbk registered.The nvbk is similar to the UKC. So if some has a UKC reg mali do you consider it pure? 
I am amazed that just because someone puts a peice of paper to a dog people think its purebred. 
My male is a unpedigreed DS that you would term as a cross or unpure. If I get an nvbk pedigree on him or take him to Belgium and get him FCI reg by your own logic he would be pure. What I would like to know is what magic happened to change him from cross to pure?


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## Ashley Campbell

This is an interesting thread, can someone explain what xHH or xMH stands for or it's translation? Yay for the noob question but I really have no clue.

A funny point to ponder though. When I went to move out of my current house when my lease was up, I found that a lot of places have breed restrictions, to include the GSD and GSDx's and of course pits, rotti's, dobes, etc.
However, several places I called said if my dog could be called a Dutch Shepherd or a Malinois, they'd accept it - i.e. if my adult wasn't a black and tan they'd have said she was a DS or Mal and let me have her there. 
I ended up giving up and keeping my lease for another year because there is no way my dog could pass for either, at least not to me, but I did find it amusing that either of those breeds are allowed but my GSD wasn't because they're "aggressive".


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## Gerry Grimwood

Page 2, Selena van Leeuwens post.


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## Ashley Campbell

Thanks Gerry, somehow, I missed it the first time I read this thread...


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## Maren Bell Jones

Do people who run Alaskan huskies make any sort of distinction? Or are they considered more of a type? Must ask Lynn C...


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## Guest

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Do people who run Alaskan huskies make any sort of distinction? Or are they considered more of a type? Must ask Lynn C...


 
type not breed. the variety is so much more than what we see in DS/MAL/TERV


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## Maren Bell Jones

Indeed...I wonder if a lot of this fixation is simply because one thing is "registerable" (and therefore more able to enter most of the sports) and another is not. Alaskan husky people in competitive racing probably don't care as long as it runs fast and pulls hard and because any dog or mix can enter races. I just say may the best dog win. :mrgreen:


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## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Jones said:


> The nvbk is an open registry, so knpv dogs can be added to it. Berry 2 is just one dog on it. Dominque on this forum has a knpv female that he does nvbk with so I assume she will be nvbk registered.The nvbk is similar to the UKC. So if some has a UKC reg mali do you consider it pure?


Depends on the pedigree. I don't consider a xHH or xMH that "finds" FCI papers to be purebred either though.



> I am amazed that just because someone puts a peice of paper to a dog people think its purebred.
> My male is a unpedigreed DS that you would term as a cross or unpure. If I get an nvbk pedigree on him or take him to Belgium and get him FCI reg by your own logic he would be pure. What I would like to know is what magic happened to change him from cross to pure?


No, I wouldn't consider him pure. 

Here's what I don't get about this entire conversation. Many of the people on this forum who have xHH and xMH mention on a regular basis how their dogs are bred strictly for work, without the limitations of staying within one breed or worrying about registration. It's a point of pride. But then they turn around and want to call the dogs a HH or MH, not an xHH or xMH, and argue that their dogs are as "pure" as dogs who are many generations of one breed. Why? 

I have nothing against the KNPV dogs, I've seen some very nice dogs from KNPV origins. If I bought one though, I'd call it what it was, an X. That's what I don't get, the desire to own a dog from a breeding program that isn't breed limited, then call it a specific breed which it actually isn't.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jody Butler said:


> type not breed. the variety is so much more than what we see in DS/MAL/TERV


True, but the sport dog/PPD whatever world could learn a few things from dog mushers.

First of all :razz:, you always hear people saying looks aren't important and working ability comes first...then every picture you see of a stud dog is this picture of a dog with a huge head and it's stretched out like a yoga master...you all know who you are :lol:

You see most pictures of sleddogs that are focused poorly, bad angle, overexposed and the dog looks like fluffy from the pound...then he and his team mates go out and trot for 6-10 hrs in weather that most people here will never see or sprint for an hour non stop :razz: 

Granted they don't do suit work, but they will bite your ass through a skidoo suit occasionally if you don't get them hooked up fast enough.

Rant for the day....I feel better now :-|


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## Guest

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Depends on the pedigree. I don't consider a xHH or xMH that "finds" FCI papers to be purebred either though.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I wouldn't consider him pure.
> 
> Here's what I don't get about this entire conversation. Many of the people on this forum who have xHH and xMH mention on a regular basis how their dogs are bred strictly for work, without the limitations of staying within one breed or worrying about registration. It's a point of pride. But then they turn around and want to call the dogs a HH or MH, not an xHH or xMH, and argue that their dogs are as "pure" as dogs who are many generations of one breed. Why?
> 
> I have nothing against the KNPV dogs, I've seen some very nice dogs from KNPV origins. If I bought one though, I'd call it what it was, an X. *That's what I don't get, the desire to own a dog from a breeding program that isn't breed limited, then call it a specific breed which it actually isn't.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> The reason they don't say that, because for the most part, half the people in the US don't even know what the hell a malinois is let alone an x malinois. They think its a MUTT, well it is....LOL I mean GSD mix
> 
> All it is, is an identifable name of a breed of dog that best suits the description to the person talking. Of course at a club or amongst friends and associates, the details come out etc etc...


----------



## Guest

Gerry Grimwood said:


> True, but the sport dog/PPD whatever world could learn a few things from dog mushers.
> 
> First of all :razz:, you always hear people saying looks aren't important and working ability comes first...then every picture you see of a stud dog is this picture of a dog with a huge head and it's stretched out like a yoga master...you all know who you are :lol:
> 
> You see most pictures of sleddogs that are focused poorly, bad angle, overexposed and the dog looks like fluffy from the pound...then he and his team mates go out and trot for 6-10 hrs in weather that most people here will never see or sprint for an hour non stop :razz:
> 
> Granted they don't do suit work, but they will bite your ass through a skidoo suit occasionally if you don't get them hooked up fast enough.
> 
> Rant for the day....I feel better now :-|


when I use to race, the dogs were husky looking and then I bought my first alaskan husky, ugliest wolf/hound looking thing. First time I hooked him in, he bit me, then the same day killed a neighbors cat, but the unbeleivable and endless drive this thing had, I never looked back. 
These dogs look like hell these days and MUTTS they are, but on the trail, it is the most impressive things to be seen by animals. Those dogs are true athletes!


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## kristin tresidder

Gerry Grimwood said:


> First of all :razz:, you always hear people saying looks aren't important and working ability comes first...then every picture you see of a stud dog is this picture of a dog with a huge head and it's stretched out like a yoga master...you all know who you are:-|


Lol - so I'm not the only one that winds up feeling like I'm reading a bad pit bull ad 1/2 the time I peruse various DS for sale or stud dog sites? "huge bone," "impressive head" and so on...


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## Harry Keely

who cares if its pure or not or how it looks, all this means nothing if the dog doesn't work, paperwork - big head - little head - light - dark - pure - un pure - BLAH BLAH BLAH. I love the dutch genetics but for the first time have a non dutch line dog and hes cool and works, even has a little grey on his muzzle for some character:mrgreen:. PLan on having some more dutch line dogs though for sure in the future.

All this bullshit should be based on the individual dog not size or color or papers saying its pure or a mutt.


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## Bob Scott

Since all the Dutch Shepherds initially come from one and the same then it's obvious that some, or even many chose because of looks or the "varieties" wouldn't be separated as much as they are. 
Just a though! :wink:


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## Christopher Jones

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Depends on the pedigree. I don't consider a xHH or xMH that "finds" FCI papers to be purebred either though.
> No, I wouldn't consider him pure.


So if nothing else your post admits that what is purebred or not is quite subjective. The official kennel club would consider my Male to be purebred if it gave him a pedigree, but you wouldnt. 
I could give you 100 photos of Malis and Dutchies, some pedigreed others not, an I guarentee you that you could not pick the pure from the unpure. 
Wether you want to admit it or not, the unpedigreed NVBK dogs, which no doubt are the backbone of your Malinois, are considered non-purebred by the same offical breed registries as the KNPV dogs are. 




Kadi Thingvall said:


> Here's what I don't get about this entire conversation. Many of the people on this forum who have xHH and xMH mention on a regular basis how their dogs are bred strictly for work, without the limitations of staying within one breed or worrying about registration. It's a point of pride. But then they turn around and want to call the dogs a HH or MH, not an xHH or xMH, and argue that their dogs are as "pure" as dogs who are many generations of one breed. Why?
> 
> I have nothing against the KNPV dogs, I've seen some very nice dogs from KNPV origins. If I bought one though, I'd call it what it was, an X. That's what I don't get, the desire to own a dog from a breeding program that isn't breed limited, then call it a specific breed which it actually isn't.


I cant speak for others, but i think I am very honest about my dogs. They are unpedigreed, they have large amounts of Malinois in them and they are bred soley for work. I choose to refer to them as unpedigreed or unregistered Dutchies as I could get them pedigrees if I had of wanted. Real or fake.
The thing is Kadi, the Malinois and DS are not the same as the GSD or Dobermann or Rottie. Those breeds have closed books with no viable population of dogs anywhere outside of the pedigree system. With the Mali and Dutchie two of the biggest, viable genepools are alive and in big numbers without pedigrees. And until all the pedigreed Mali and Dutchie breeders stop putting out fake pedigrees on these dogs they will be far closer than you might wish to admit.
As I said, you could make a stand and hand in all those incorrect pedigrees your own dogs have if you really think the two are so different.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Jones said:


> So if nothing else your post admits that what is purebred or not is quite subjective.


I'm not sure how you got "subjective" from what I said, I thought I made it clear that fake papers or not, a mix is a mix?

IMO the only area that might be subjective is how many generations of breeding it takes to consider a dog purebred. IE if I breed a Mali to a DS, and then after that breed the offspring only to Malinois, how many generations does it take before those offspring are Malinois? Considering this is how every breed was created, there is some accepted number out there, what it is, is subjective.



> The official kennel club would consider my Male to be purebred if it gave him a pedigree, but you wouldnt.


Once again, fake papers or not, a mix is a mix. And papers or not, a purebred is a purebred. Registration is not what makes a dog purebred or mix, the dogs behind the dog are what determines that.



> I could give you 100 photos of Malis and Dutchies, some pedigreed others not, an I guarentee you that you could not pick the pure from the unpure.


I wouldn't deny that. But you could also show me photos of purebreds and mixes of other breeds, and I may or may not be able to tell you who is who. 



> Wether you want to admit it or not, the unpedigreed NVBK dogs, which no doubt are the backbone of your Malinois, are considered non-purebred by the same offical breed registries as the KNPV dogs are.


Why do you keep calling the NVBK dogs unpedigreed? They have pedigrees, they are also registered by the NVBK. But registered or not, they have pedigrees (known ancestory). And like I said above, the ancestors are what determine pure vs mix, not who the dog is or isn't registered with. There are many purebred unregistered dogs running around out there. And some mix breeds with papers.



> With the Mali and Dutchie two of the biggest, viable genepools are alive and in big numbers without pedigrees.


Which gene pool are you talking about for the Malinios? The NVBK, KNPV, ???



> As I said, you could make a stand and hand in all those incorrect pedigrees your own dogs have if you really think the two are so different.


Who would I be making the stand for? And why would I do that?


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> You cant cherry pick it Kadi. Every single xMali and X Dutchie in the KNPV can get NVBK pedigrees. And not all NVBK Malis are "pure" either. Bart Bellon in his Mike Ellis interview said one of his NVBK dogs was xmali and GSD.
> The fairytale is that everything outside the FCI/AKC pedigree system is a mongrel, and everything in it is pure. But thats just not the reality. I know of so many xMH and xDS that have FCI papers, and the same with NVBK dogs. I know of FCI Malis that have Dutch Shepherds as fathers (Rudie Pegge offspring)
> The last thing people with pedigreed Malis and Dutchies should do is try and say their dogs are pure and the ones without pedigrees are mongrel crosses.


Christopher, don't mix up working pedigrees with full pedigrees. 
You could get a working pedigree for an x-breed but then you're not allowed to do breedings with the dog. If you do, you won't get pedigrees.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm not sure how you got "subjective" from what I said, I thought I made it clear that fake papers or not, a mix is a mix?
> IMO the only area that might be subjective is how many generations of breeding it takes to consider a dog purebred. IE if I breed a Mali to a DS, and then after that breed the offspring only to Malinois, how many generations does it take before those offspring are Malinois? Considering this is how every breed was created, there is some accepted number out there, what it is, is subjective.


Simple. I said that the Belgian Dutch Shepherd Club would issue my dog a pedigree as a DS. You said my dog is not a DS. That is the deffinition of subjective. The offical breed club says Dutchie, you say they are wrong. See how stupid this pure DS debate is?
Humour me Kadi. Look at this bloodline and tell me if you consider it has enough generations of Malis in it to count as a Mali?
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=845

You will also notice Kadi that the same Dutch KNPV people who refer to their unpedigreed dogs as xMH's, they also refer to the NVBK Malinois as xMH. 



Kadi Thingvall said:


> Why do you keep calling the NVBK dogs unpedigreed? They have pedigrees, they are also registered by the NVBK. But registered or not, they have pedigrees (known ancestory).


The NVBK papers are not recognised by ANY other official kennel club in the world. Not AKC, not anyone. In the AKC's view these NVBK Malinois are not pure bred and not able to be entered in their pedigree system. My dog ancestory is known as well as any NVBK dogs is. Did you know that an NVBK pedigree can have NO ancestors listed at all? Whole pedigree listed with XXXXXXXX's. You need to look into the NVBK pedigrees a bit more.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Martine Loots said:


> Christopher, don't mix up working pedigrees with full pedigrees.
> You could get a working pedigree for an x-breed but then you're not allowed to do breedings with the dog. If you do, you won't get pedigrees.


 In the FCI or NVBK?


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> The nvbk is an open registry, so knpv dogs can be added to it. Berry 2 is just one dog on it. Dominque on this forum has a knpv female that he does nvbk with so I assume she will be nvbk registered.The nvbk is similar to the UKC. So if some has a UKC reg mali do you consider it pure?
> I am amazed that just because someone puts a peice of paper to a dog people think its purebred.
> My male is a unpedigreed DS that you would term as a cross or unpure. If I get an nvbk pedigree on him or take him to Belgium and get him FCI reg by your own logic he would be pure. What I would like to know is what magic happened to change him from cross to pure?


I agree with Kadi that there is a difference between NVBK and KNPV. 
In KNPV it is common to mix, but NVBK is a registry. The only reason it is not fci recognized is because fci allows only 1 officially recognized federation in Belgium and St Hubert was first.
I know what Dominique wrote about the female. I don't know if she is NVBK bred as he said the mother was fci, but if she is then this would be very uncommon for nvbk.


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## Christopher Jones

Martine Loots said:


> I agree with Kadi that there is a difference between NVBK and KNPV.
> In KNPV it is common to mix, but NVBK is a registry. The only reason it is not fci recognized is because fci allows only 1 officially recognized federation in Belgium and St Hubert was first.
> I know what Dominique wrote about the female. I don't know if she is NVBK bred as he said the mother was fci, but if she is then this would be very uncommon for nvbk.


 I think Dominque's female was bred in Holland from KNPV parents? But I guess he can answer. 
The NVBK is different in that also does pedigrees and they tend not to outcross to DS's like the KNPV has. However as far as the ruling bodies (FCI, AKC) are concerned the NVBK pedigrees are not worth the paper they are written on. Also the NVBK is an open regsitry for Malinois still, unlike the FCI.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> In the FCI or NVBK?


in NVBK


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## Martine Loots

FCI has pedigrees with only XXXXX too.
G'Bibber had one.
If Dominique's female was bred in Holland and has an official pedigree then NVBK will accept that pedigree and take it over. If not then she'll have to pass conformation to get one and it will be a blank one.
Same procedure as for the FCI registry.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> I think Dominque's female was bred in Holland from KNPV parents? But I guess he can answer.
> The NVBK is different in that also does pedigrees and they tend not to outcross to DS's like the KNPV has. However as far as the ruling bodies (FCI, AKC) are concerned the NVBK pedigrees are not worth the paper they are written on. Also the NVBK is an open regsitry for Malinois still, unlike the FCI.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> I think Dominque's female was bred in Holland from KNPV parents? But I guess he can answer.
> The NVBK is different in that also does pedigrees and they tend not to outcross to DS's like the KNPV has. However as far as the ruling bodies (FCI, AKC) are concerned the NVBK pedigrees are not worth the paper they are written on. Also the NVBK is an open regsitry for Malinois still, unlike the FCI.


what exactly do you mean with no open registry? 
A dog without pedigree will get a blank one (only XXXX) in FCI too, if he passes 2 conformations.


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## Christopher Jones

Martine Loots said:


> FCI has pedigrees with only XXXXX too.
> G'Bibber had one.
> If Dominique's female was bred in Holland and has an official pedigree then NVBK will accept that pedigree and take it over. If not then she'll have to pass conformation to get one and it will be a blank one.
> Same procedure as for the FCI registry.


 Yeah that sounds right. For us in Australia the NVBK wanted us to supply photos of the dogs we wanted to register (to check conformation) and then the pedigree would be full of xxxxxx's and the pedigrees would start with them. This was for both KNPV Malis and Dutch Shepherds. 

Do you need a NVBK pedigree to trial in the Cat's? I know we dont need it for the Basic Certificate here.


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## Christopher Jones

Martine Loots said:


> what exactly do you mean with no open registry?
> A dog without pedigree will get a blank one (only XXXX) in FCI too, if he passes 2 conformations.


For Dutch Shepherds this is true, but I understand the Malinois for FCI is now closed stud books?


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> Yeah that sounds right. For us in Australia the NVBK wanted us to supply photos of the dogs we wanted to register (to check conformation) and then the pedigree would be full of xxxxxx's and the pedigrees would start with them. This was for both KNPV Malis and Dutch Shepherds.
> 
> Do you need a NVBK pedigree to trial in the Cat's? I know we dont need it for the Basic Certificate here.


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## Martine Loots

Christopher Jones said:


> Yeah that sounds right. For us in Australia the NVBK wanted us to supply photos of the dogs we wanted to register (to check conformation) and then the pedigree would be full of xxxxxx's and the pedigrees would start with them. This was for both KNPV Malis and Dutch Shepherds.
> 
> Do you need a NVBK pedigree to trial in the Cat's? I know we dont need it for the Basic Certificate here.


yes, you need at least a working pedigree to compete.

Christopher, it still is possible for mals in fci, to answer yr other post.

p.s. sorry for the empty posts. It's my phone having issues I guess. ...


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## Christopher Jones

Martine Loots said:


> yes, you need at least a working pedigree to compete.
> 
> Christopher, it still is possible for mals in fci, to answer yr other post.
> 
> p.s. sorry for the empty posts. It's my phone having issues I guess. ...


 Okay, I didnt know that the FCI books were open for Malis. Thats interesting. 
Yeah, my phone sucks at surfing the web as well :lol: My fingers are too fat....#-o


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## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Jones said:


> Simple. I said that the Belgian Dutch Shepherd Club would issue my dog a pedigree as a DS. You said my dog is not a DS. That is the deffinition of subjective. The offical breed club says Dutchie, you say they are wrong. See how stupid this pure DS debate is?


I actually thought we were debating more about the Malinois, at least I was. Considering 95% of the DS in the US are KNPV dogs I would agree that here, the term DS is used to describe a type of dog, more so than a breed. Like Alaskan Husky. However, there is a large population of purebred Malinois in the US, large enough that I think calling a population of similar looking mix breeds Malinois is incorrect, since it confuses the issue of if it's a breed or a type.



> Humour me Kadi. Look at this bloodline and tell me if you consider it has enough generations of Malis in it to count as a Mali?
> http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=845


I can't look at it now, the site is being blocked. How many generations of "Malinois" is it? And are all the pups in all the litters "Malinois"? If so, at some point the dogs would be considered purebred. How many generations, I don't know. I think I mentioned earlier that is subjective, and not really something I've given a lot of thought to.



> You will also notice Kadi that the same Dutch KNPV people who refer to their unpedigreed dogs as xMH's, they also refer to the NVBK Malinois as xMH.


Actually I hadn't noticed that. I had noticed that when they have a registered dog they call it an MH, haven't really paid attention to which registry. 



> The NVBK papers are not recognised by ANY other official kennel club in the world.


What are you considering "official"? FCI recognized or ?? I believe UKC, which is as old as AKC, does recognize NVBK papers. But they aren't FCI.



> Not AKC, not anyone. In the AKC's view these NVBK Malinois are not pure bred and not able to be entered in their pedigree system.


I would question the first part of your statement, I expect AKC would admit they are purebred. But the latter part is correct, purebred or not, they don't have a pedigree AKC will accept, because they have an agreement with FCI, and for political reasons FCI won't accept NVBK.



> Did you know that an NVBK pedigree can have NO ancestors listed at all? Whole pedigree listed with XXXXXXXX's. You need to look into the NVBK pedigrees a bit more.


Did you know an AKC dog can also?

Since I don't register my dogs with NVBK, I have only skimmed their registration requirements, however I'm aware of NVBK dogs with XXXXX pedigrees, that's not news.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Jones said:


> Yeah, my phone sucks at surfing the web as well :lol: My fingers are too fat....#-o


That's because phones are for talking, not surfing the web and not
texting. Web surfing from "phones" is destroying Order in the
Universe


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's because phones are for talking, not surfing the web and not
> texting. Web surfing from "phones" is destroying Order in the
> Universe


AMEN....jut got a phone with texting yesterday....thing beeped every 5-10 minutes from someone texting me....Fukking call me!!! I dont want to sit on my phone all day with it, typing away...


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## Daniel Lybbert

So if DS aren't really registered, how do they compete in trials that require registrations to get a scorebook? Maybe I'm just really lost. I don't know much about registrations other than I need one with the puppy I get.
Jason what organization is Sniper reg through?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Daniel Lybbert said:


> So if DS aren't really registered, how do they compete in trials that require registrations to get a scorebook? Maybe I'm just really lost. I don't know much about registrations other than I need one with the puppy I get.


Each organization has it's own rules regarding registration. Most allow unregistered dogs to compete though, at some level. USA, DVG, USMRA, NARA and many other organizations will issue scorebooks to unregistered dogs. Many (most?) require registration for their national championships, in part because the national championship is a "doorway" to world level competition in some sports, and at the world level FCI recognized papers are usually required.

For French Ring, NARA accepts any registry. This was done because there are breeds in the US that compete in French Ring, that aren't AKC recognized. Some aren't FCI recognized either, but for most it's a case of them being an FCI breed, but not an AKC one. So they may have a different registry here, and isntead of trying to keep track of all the possible registeries, and verifying who was legit and who wasn't, NARA decided they would just accept registration from any registry for a scorebook.


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## Daniel Lybbert

even the ACA?


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## Lee H Sternberg

Joby Becker said:


> AMEN....jut got a phone with texting yesterday....thing beeped every 5-10 minutes from someone texting me....Fukking call me!!! I dont want to sit on my phone all day with it, typing away...


my older kids don't seem to have a life outside of text messages. I don't even know how to text. They keep offering to show me. I tell them after seeing them tied to a stupid phone all day, no thanks!


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## Ashley Campbell

I hate talking on the phone so I mainly text. Texting is free, using phone minutes is not. Some people get a bit extreme, I have 6 hours worth of text messaging from the other night that lasted until 4 AM with a friend in NC.


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## Guest

Ashley Campbell said:


> I hate talking on the phone so I mainly text. Texting is free, using phone minutes is not. Some people get a bit extreme, I have 6 hours worth of text messaging from the other night that lasted until 4 AM with a friend in NC.


Ashley, thats Sexting! LOL


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## Joby Becker

Gerry Grimwood said:


> True, but the sport dog/PPD whatever world could learn a few things from dog mushers.
> First of all :razz:, you always hear people saying looks aren't important and working ability comes first...then every picture you see of a stud dog is this picture of a dog with a huge head and it's stretched out like a yoga master...you all know who you are :lol:


I have seen those stretched pics...even from members here...I prefer to use angles, not editing, if I want to take a pic that makes the dog look better than it does LOL....no stretching here...

But seriously, when someone is going to market a product, most people take pictures that make the dogs look good. I do not agree with stretching pics..but would think it is wise to take the best pictures possible....

YOU take very nice pictures of your dog, people should hire you to take pics for them....LOL it is amazing to see some of the crappy pictures that people do put on their websites though....along with the stretching....

I think good presentation is a smart thing, deceptive is not...
Here is what my dog actually looks like next to giant decoy (6'4-6'5- 270 or so) this pic would *not* end up on the website, if I had one..it makes the dog look tiny....


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## Christopher Smith

Kadi Thingvall said:


> NARA accepts any registry.


As does the AWMA.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> As does the AWMA.


You and Kadi might want to double check that, since both are AWDF member clubs.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Thomas Barriano said:


> You and Kadi might want to double check that, since both are AWDF member clubs.


Don't need to check it, look on the NARA website and it cleary outlines what the requirements are for a scorebook, including what registries are accepted. I'm also pretty familiar with the requirements since I issued scorebooks for awhile when I was on the BOD 

I don't think FCI recognized registration is a requirement for any AWDF club when issuing scorebooks. Some of the clubs don't even have an AKC recognized breed (BRT, Am Bulldog, PitBulls, DS, Cane Corso, Hovawarts). I'd have to double check that the Hovawart and Cane Corso haven't been recently AKC recognized, but ... And other clubs, like NARA, USMRA and DVG, aren't breed clubs at all.


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## Timothy Stacy

Hope this sheds some better light on the subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVxGh5GpP0Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Ashley Campbell

Jody Butler said:


> Ashley, thats Sexting! LOL


You hush! Busting me out like that...jeez, gotta admit that 6 hours of sexting would take some stamina. I'd be proud.


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## Guest

Ashley Campbell said:


> You hush! Busting me out like that...jeez, gotta admit that 6 hours of sexting would take some stamina. I'd be proud.


especially on the fingers huh..........all that typing I mean:-D


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## Kristen Bretscher

Ashley Campbell said:


> A funny point to ponder though. When I went to move out of my current house when my lease was up, I found that a lot of places have breed restrictions, to include the GSD and GSDx's and of course pits, rotti's, dobes, etc.
> *However, several places I called said if my dog could be called a Dutch Shepherd or a Malinois, they'd accept it* - i.e. if my adult wasn't a black and tan they'd have said she was a DS or Mal and let me have her there.
> I ended up giving up and keeping my lease for another year because there is no way my dog could pass for either, at least not to me, but I did find it amusing that either of those breeds are allowed but my GSD wasn't because they're "aggressive".


That's interesting. When I was looking for an apartment about a year ago, I was told by 5 or 6 complexes that since my dog is a Malinois and he looks similar to a GSD, he could not live there. GSDs were on the restricted breed list and Malinois were not, but because of their "similarities," my dog wouldn't have been allowed.


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## Kristen Bretscher

> a well known Malinois stud dog from the NVBK, who when he was imported was given AKC papers





> I know of so many xMH and xDS that have FCI papers, and the same with NVBK dogs


But



> for political reasons FCI won't accept NVBK


Could someone please explain how this happens? Confused newbie here


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## Ashley Campbell

Jody Butler said:


> especially on the fingers huh..........all that typing I mean:-D


It explains why I have long alien fingers for sure...lots of keyboard use


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## Matt Grosch

Kristen Bretscher said:


> That's interesting. When I was looking for an apartment about a year ago, I was told by 5 or 6 complexes that since my dog is a Malinois and he looks similar to a GSD, he could not live there. GSDs were on the restricted breed list and Malinois were not, but because of their "similarities," my dog wouldn't have been allowed.






kinda makes sense, because its likely insurance driven

GSD's may be banned, but a belgian shepherd (or even better belgian sheep dog) isnt


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## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's because phones are for talking, not surfing the web and not
> texting. Web surfing from "phones" is destroying Order in the
> Universe


Man, someone is showing their age


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> Man, someone is showing their age


Chris,

I just know guys that surf the web on their PDA/Blueberries /Droids/IPad/phones etc. are **** attracted to SAR groups


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## Derek Milliken

Kadi,
Thank you for those links, WAY back in this thread. I've kinda skim read them, I'll go back and read them a few times more.
But they do look cool.
Derek


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