# National Docking Ban



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Has anyone heard about a national docking ban for the US? I went to a vets office today and the girl working there said she thought they may be pushing such a thing here in the States. This girl is a Rottweiler breeder...


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Whats this world comming to?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I've asked a few times and no one answered me, why do they need to crop and dock? I've always wondered,


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm not a fan of the ear thing a young couple with a backyard bred came out to club Saturday with there freshly cropped Doberman looked a bit sore. I think they look houndish with the tail and ears.
Im ok with the tails thats done at a very young age.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I like the docking because that's what I'm use to seeing with those breeds. Most of my generation probably feels the same. The little amount of pain that the dog feels can't be any worse than a dog pulling a toe nail off. At the young age I doubt the dog even remembers. The dog that pulls a toe nail off, if old enough, will. Does the docking make them a better dog, no, and it's don't make any worse. It's all in what you are use to seeing. A boxer with a long tail just don't look right to us older folks. If there is a band then the younger folks would think the other way after time passes.

I don't believe the government should have any say on this matter. It's our dogs and GM use to belong to others as well. I say keep the government out they can't run anything any better.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Al, not really sure of any reason other than appearance for the tail docking.

Ear crops are definitely still warranted today. Probably started with ancient war dogs because of a large bleed vessel that runs through the ear. If cut the dog can bleed to death in a short time. 

The practice continued with fighting dogs for the same reason. If the opponents dog got a hold of that ear and blood vessel, the fight just got shorter. Today there is still good health reasons for ear cropping and the hotter and more humid an area you live in the more important it is.

In nature all dogs have erect ears, I'm sure if there are ones that don't someone will correct me, but the reason mother nature gives them all "prick" ears is health. If you have natural ears the flaps of the ear hold heat and promote fungus, yeast, bacteria, and all sorts of nasty things that need a place to live. The more humid the atmosphere the worse it gets.

I am in Ft. Worth Texas. It is humid and the heat is legend. I have a Basset Hound that gets a yeast infection as well as various other bacterial and fungal problems the second day I forget to rinse and clean his ears.

A few years ago he got in a fight mith one of my wolves and a Cane Corso (great nose, everything else short circuits near the brain area)
He lost one ear, and as funny as it looks now with that ear "cropped" right next to his head he has had no infections. I clean the intact ear a few times a week and it is always gunky, really gunky after three days.
Cropped ear? Clean and healthy

Cropping makes a flop eared dogs life a lot more comfortable. That is reason enough for me.

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

IMHO, I like that classic look of a Rotti with the tail docked.

And in the whole scheme of things... docking tails and cropping ears is such a miniscule thing when compared to all of the other bad things in the doggy world. Why not focus energy on more important matters?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> Ear crops are definitely still warranted today. Probably started with ancient war dogs because of a large bleed vessel that runs through the ear. If cut the dog can bleed to death in a short time.


If this was so, why would all the people doing home hack jobs on their dog's ears to make them look mean not kill their dog? The auricular artery isn't something to be sneezed at and it certainly can bring in infection, but I seriously doubt the immediate blood loss would kill a dog "in a short time." Sounds like a just so story to me.



> The practice continued with fighting dogs for the same reason. If the opponents dog got a hold of that ear and blood vessel, the fight just got shorter.


Then why do the dogs they seize from actual fighting rings like the big one that just went down in the midwest or the Michael Vick dogs more often than not do NOT have their ears cropped? 

I'd rather people not declaw cats, as at least a dog doesn't walk on its ears or tail. I think I find tail docking the least objectionable and I'd do it with a local anesthetic ring block. But like I think I've seen Selena say before...a dog bites with its teeth, not its ears.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Umm...yeah as an APBT person. It is MORE common to see "fighting" dogs or game-bred dogs UN-Cropped. 

The more common cropping in the AST/APBT world is the show world. Personally, if I ever got another one, I'd crop it's ears. I like that look better. Same with a Dobe and a Rottie. 

Courtney


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nothing wrong with cropping and docking IF done humanly. 
In my old neighborhood I saw way to many pits with ears that looked like they were done with a frickin lawn mower. That's the kinda crap that starts all the BSL, anti crop/dock bs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob, I can dock a litter of 10 in about 4 minutes with a good pocket knife and they come out fine. Someone owed me a pup that has their pups docked by the vet and it is the only dog with a bare bone sticking out. Personally, I simply don't like bans and being told what I can and can't do....other than that I have no problem with tails and ears as they hunt fine with them. Dewclaws are part of a dogs arsenal and should be left on.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don, I agree! It's a simple deal for a good, experienced breeder. That's usually done at a couple of days old. 
It's more the ears that get a butcher job.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

just my 2 cents worth: i like a cropped docked dobie, a cropped dane/boxer--but only b/c a like the clean look it gives them. cropping ears is an art: i used to work w/a vet that did ear crops, and did a damn nice job, but for ppl that wanted show crops (usually Dobes/Danes), she referred them to a vet in Indianapolis.

definitely an art to doing it well, even using the patterns.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jerry, I agree with you here. I am planning another Bouvier breeding this week and unless a client has a deposit and tail left letter of interest done, all will be banded/docked and ears left natural. The ear issue/soft ears I can deal with. Even with Rocks natural tail from Belgium, he looks like a cure dog and not a Bouv. Fights and bites like a dog from hell.

It really has to do now with the looks and not function. Cropped ears can't make a weak dog strong and macho...I think the fact that the Bouvier was also used for carting made the tail dock a safety issue for small carts, MO. My concern is with national legislation and BSL games jambing everyone up.

What will they do next, tell working dog folks that you can't train in the venues we all love? Man I hope not...


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> J
> 
> What will they do next, tell working dog folks that you can't train in the venues we all love?



of course they will - eventually... prong collars are the epitome of cruelty, well, they may be tied with e-collars - not sure where the survey falls on that one today. leaving your dog intact is the hallmark of an irresponsible owner - and mandatory S/N would probably benefit the dog population as a whole by eliminating dogs in shelters. breeding purebred dogs at all is bad - haven't you watched BBC yet? cropping and docking are cruel and unnecessary surgery - not sure if they're worse than prongs or not - tethering and kenneling dogs for more than 3 hours per day should be illegal. only purely positive training should be allowed, using dogs to hunt game is cruel to both the dogs & the prey... doesn't seem hard to imagine reading about forcing fido to bite a man, or dragging him around the show ring, or really making him work at all in that list does it... hell, it's already in some of the more extremist propaganda.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard I've sent you two PM's.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Cropping IS an art. As long as it's done by a vet who knows how to do the right crop for the right dog, I'm cool w/it. I hate the job they did on my Boxer but if and when I got another Boxer and it had a docked tail, I'd get it cropped again. *With a different vet! *

As for the tails, some dogs look better docked. But, I have read many times that it helps with balance. Makes sense to me. If I get a dog w/a natural tail, it'll have natural ears too.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

and then there is the Beauceron..a breed where it has been a matter of tradition to crop the ears and the tail is always left natural... I'm a traditionalist and prefer the properly cropped ears. We drive 3 hours one way to get to a good ear vet (it is art). We sell dogs with natural ears if a puppy buyer insists, however the price is the same if the ears are cropped or left natural. I know statistically if I need to re-home a dog (owner return) that the beautifully cropped dogs always find homes before the natural eared Beaucerons. People may say they like natural but statistically the cropped dogs find homes first through rescue and re-homing.


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## nathan cram (Jun 9, 2008)

think ur selves lucky in australia 
you cant dock 
you cant crop
some states u cant use prongs 
and some states have odd laws about using e collors

so we are slowly losing the battle here


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## Kevin Barrett (Dec 16, 2009)

Al the docking of tail on rotts go back to the days they were used for carting. Not sure about boxer or dobs


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Nothing wrong with cropping and docking IF done humanly.
> In my old neighborhood I saw way to many pits with ears that looked like they were done with a frickin lawn mower. That's the kinda crap that starts all the BSL, anti crop/dock bs.



Bob,

My current Dobermann male is uncropped but docked, only because I got him at 5 months and it was already done.
My previous male was all natural and my next Dobermann will be all natural. In my experience the bonding imprinting period is a lot easier if the dog isn't recovering from cosmetic
surgery.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Nothing wrong with cropping and docking IF done humanly.
> In my old neighborhood I saw way to many pits with ears that looked like they were done with a frickin lawn mower. That's the kinda crap that starts all the BSL, anti crop/dock bs.


Agree 100% BUT what's interesting is like Jerry said, I too, was always used to seeing Dobies, Rotties, Schnauzers, Boxers, etc., that were cropped/docked, so anything natural looked odd and houndish to me. Nowadays though I see so many more "natural" I have a greater appreciation for them. In my club we have a gal with an outstanding Dobie import, natural ears and tail, to me he looks incredibly elegant. (AND by the way he is a real nice dog, very clear head, great grips, very strong, great drive), We have a couple of guys who breed working boxers and their imports have natural ears and tails so now to me seeing a crop on a boxer looks weird! We have a schnauzer breeder, some of their dogs are imports (natural) and some of the older dogs are of their breeding and are (cropped/docked), I like the natural look the best now.

But of course, to each their own!


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I think what the AKC is doing to some breeds is more in the line of cruelty to animals.
Just look at the gait of showshepherds and at the shape of the skull of some toy and bull breeds.Some breeds need a c- section in order to be able to produce pups.
But making a comment like this will disturb some mega money institutions,i will leave my lights on tonite!!:-\"


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

It really does not matter either way to me, but what bothers me is the fact that the Govt steps in and tries to control it. I think it should be left up to the owner. Some parents pierce their kids ears before they are old enough to make that choice, to me that is more wrong than cropping / docking a dog.
To be honest about it, I am very surprised that the "mothers of America" have not made cropping / docking illegal already, along with a host of other shit.
I hope they never change it, but odds are they will change it at some point Im sure. If I ever had another Dobermann (not likely to ever happen again) I would have it cropped and docked for sure.
With a Boxer it would be docked and uncropped, a pitbull would be all natural, with a Rottweiler and Bouvier I like the look either way. But I really like the way a Bouvier looks when he has a short "combat crop" and a docked tail, and he is shaved down. Then you have a nice looking animal in my opinion, and nobody ever knows what the hell it is........so you can tell them its a Dobermann. I think that is how the rumor got started that their are real Dobermanns, those people were looking at a shaved down cropped / docked Bouvier!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

The jack russell terriers were docked so as when they went to ground they could be pulled out efficiently. The tail length should be a 'hand's grasp', long enough so as to easily grasp the tail and pull the dog out without hurting him. 

I got my current jrt from a 'proper terrier man', there is still plenty of tail for expression of body language, and I can pull him out and back from situations by the tail very quickly and easily when demanded. I had also bred a litter of jrts and as they were to be homed as pets, they all kept their tails. I kept one dog and really appreciated to watch the one with the tail as I had never seen one with a tail before this, as they're such quick little gits one could really appreciate how much they do use their tail for body language, balance and overall dynamics.

Like so many docked tails one can see, there seems no function to it and often the dog can't even cover it's 'bits', docking is illegal here now so there are lots of tails to be seen.... it just takes a bit of getting used to. Personally, I don't like mutilating an animal for the sake of appearance, if you like a dog with pointy ears buy a pointy ear breed, you also get lots of variations in the tails too! Just my view.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I think that is how the rumor got started that their (sic) are real Dobermanns, those people were looking at a shaved down cropped / docked Bouvier!



Fuk U Suttle ;-0

It doesn't matter what breed it is, you're just going to sell it anyway? VBG


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I kept one dog and really appreciated to watch the one with the tail as I had never seen one with a tail before this, as they're such quick little gits one could really appreciate how much they do use their tail for body language, balance and overall dynamics.
> 
> >I always thought my male Dobermann Jago ran faster and
> >tighter blinds with his tail acting as a rudder and as a
> ...


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

What is Amazing is the same Anti-Crop/Doc goons have NO problem removing the Reproductive system, the earlier the better. :x


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike I have to enjoy the writing! Shaved Bouvs....erh!
Kyle's point is very solid and one that should be pitched back at these folks.
I can see 2010 as the year of all kinds of BSL and other K-9 legislation. As working dog folks, I would think MOST will or should take an aggressive stand and tell them to pack sand!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> What is Amazing is the same Anti-Crop/Doc goons have NO problem removing the Reproductive system, the earlier the better. :x


Yeah, I agree, it's one of those things that makes you go "hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm" :-k


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I guess we are getting close to finding out how many really prick eared dogs there are that are not man made. What blows me away is the AVMa supports the ban, they support mandatory spay and neuter. Got to wonder how long they think they can stay in business when no dogs are being bred a few years down the road.


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## Josh Mueller (Sep 17, 2009)

I'd like to weigh in on this form a Law Enforcement standpoint. Unfortunately the "HUMANEIACS" have missed the mark again. Being an SPCA Law Enforcement Officer here in NY IMO this almost exactly mirrors another hot issue...gun control.....now hear me out

People like the HSUS who want to push garbage like this through have no idea what really goes on. They say this is cruel. Well in NY anyway dogs are property and crop/docking is legal as long as it's done by a Vet......IMO that's the way it should stay. 

By implemanting a ban all you will do is stop the average responsible dog owner from being able to get a procedure done that is regulated and done with sufficent pain management and treatment of complications.

A little while ago in a Vehicle stop we had a 24 year old idiot who took his 2 year old pit bull to his buddies house and decided to crop its ears with kitchen shears and razorblades. They butchered the poor guy then wrapped the dogs head in newspaper when they were done and off they went. Luckily the blood on the window was noticed by Patrol and we were able to grab the guy. DOES HSUS /PETA and all the other dingbat operations out there think that kid gave a shit about a crop ban. The only crop he cares about is growing in his basement.

Ive seen hundreds of home crop jobs(and I'm not talking about any reputable people) with the strait across the top crop. Do you think they care about a crop/dock ban..........unreal.

Don't be suprised to see this go through, as it's a PC feel good story to make all us bad owners......you know those of us who exercise/work/bond/have fun/enjoy......actually freaking do something with our dogs be the outsiders.

Nevermind the fact that these are the people who just love those English Bulldogs who cant breath/breed/give birth/handle heat etc and have no ability to function as a freaking dog........Hey as long as they are neutered and have floppy ears and act more like a cat sitting on the couch watching you shovel down tostitoes I guess who gives a shit right! That dogs happy...........UNREAL

Anyway I'm opposed to the crop/dock ban.......

BTW that idiot I mentioned was charged with a A misd for croping ears. and an E Fel for aggravated cruelty. He asked me why he wasnt allowed to do it. When he was informed that he had to be a vet he responded to me.........well than I'll just get my vet license........yeah.....good luck

So take the ability of a logical responsible person to have a safe and legal procedure done. After all that it's still going to be done by the turds anyway. Sounds familiar dosent it. 

Ceratin groups don't want me to be able to buy a certain kind of rifle but the turd can.... and will have it anyway

It speaks to a larger issue


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Josh Mueller said:


> I'd like to weigh in on this form a Law Enforcement standpoint. Unfortunately the "HUMANEIACS" have missed the mark again. Being an SPCA Law Enforcement Officer here in NY IMO this almost exactly mirrors another hot issue...gun control.....now hear me out
> 
> People like the HSUS who want to push garbage like this through have no idea what really goes on. They say this is cruel. Well in NY anyway dogs are property and crop/docking is legal as long as it's done by a Vet......IMO that's the way it should stay.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.

The breeds I like are largely uncropped/undocked but I believe people have the right to preserve the conformation standards of the breeds they own so long as they know what they're doing(re: home cropping/docking) and/or consult a reputable veterinarian.

Turning a blind eye to this issue gives the AR people another victory that brings them closer to realizing their ultimate goal.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_Nevermind the fact that these are the people who just love those English Bulldogs who cant breath/breed/give birth/handle heat etc and have no ability to function as a freaking dog........Hey as long as they are neutered and have floppy ears and act more like a cat sitting on the couch watching you shovel down tostitoes I guess who gives a shit right! That dogs happy...........UNREAL_

_Anyway I'm opposed to the crop/dock ban......._


I think that is an interesting thing to say...

Why mess with a dog for appearance sake ? 'Cos you like the look of it ? 'Cos it looks like something it isn't ? But that's ok because what is important is what it looks like and not what it is ? I think there are some working dog folks that are really quite hypocritical - the attitude is not a lot better than the show folks is it ?

I'm generally opposed to bans too, but a crop/dock ban is not one I lost a lot of sleep over, probably because I've never understood why anyone would want to crop a dogs ears so as it had the appearance of being more alert and or more aesthetically pleasing to some.

Folks need to make up their mind.


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## Josh Mueller (Sep 17, 2009)

"Why mess with a dog for appearance sake ? 'Cos you like the look of it ? 'Cos it looks like something it isn't ? But that's ok because what is important is what it looks like and not what it is ? I think there are some working dog folks that are really quite hypocritical - the attitude is not a lot better than the show folks is it ?"

There is a larger point that I was trying to get at. Honestly I dont' care if you crop dock or do whatever you want. But I think Society has very screwed up values in general when it comes to dogs.

I used the English Bulldog as the best example. Most of the time you show that dog to the general public and everybody says......how cute......However, that dog that is deemed so damn cute and cuddly is a dog that has been genetically mangled to the point where the dog cannot exist without a constant life support system of a person. A dog that can rarely breed on it's own as it's respiratory system cannot handle the rigors of sex????. A dog that cannot go out in the heat as it easily suffers heat stroke. A dog that has to give birth by C section as it's birth canal cannont handle the act of birth. Society has genetically culled basic genetic functions.......like working respiratory systems, birth canals, hips, legs....All because it is Physically appealing to people

Now when it comes to working dogs. Yes I have no doubt that appeareance has something to do with it....But the overall functionality is there. Croping ears isn't turning hips into marshmallows, and docking tails isn't forcing a Bouv to give birth via C-section. The bottom line is the dog is made to function and for the majority of people things like health,temperment and overall workability is extremely important.

IMO the life of the Bulldog is not a life at all.......an I think that is sad

I worry about people's perception with these issues as I really think the public as a whole does not have an open mind to working dog people and really have no intention of. 

People want to turn dogs in fashion accessories.....but tell you you cant have a dog that lives outside...

Course what the hell do I care all my dogs ears are already pointy:grin:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So I'm currently up in Omaha for the next two weeks or so doing a preceptorship with a DVM PhD former Army vet of 8 years and a former SAR handler who just got her rehabilitation medicine certification. I was looking at her course notes for her rehab certification and there was a section from Chris Zink DVM, PhD for sports medicine. Dr. Zink apparently advocates leaving tails and declaws intact in performance animals as she had photos of docked and tailed Rottweilers doing agility and you could see the tail acting as a rudder mid air during jumps. She also had pictures of dogs doing agility and flat out running on the ground who were using their dew claws. Just food for thought.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So I'm currently up in Omaha for the next two weeks or so doing a preceptorship with a DVM PhD former Army vet of 8 years and a former SAR handler who just got her rehabilitation medicine certification. I was looking at her course notes for her rehab certification and there was a section from Chris Zink DVM, PhD for sports medicine. Dr. Zink apparently advocates leaving tails and declaws intact in performance animals as she had photos of docked and tailed Rottweilers doing agility and you could see the tail acting as a rudder mid air during jumps. She also had pictures of dogs doing agility and flat out running on the ground who were using their dew claws. Just food for thought.


Food for Thought?

I am not Hungry. [-(

That is all HR nonsense. :evil:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Erm...HR? :-s


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Erm...HR? :-s


 
Ooops , that shoudl read AR.....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

LOL, all I could think of was "human resources? What?" :lol:

Seriously though, no, Zink is no AR fan, trust me. She's one of the foremost and most respected vets in the country for working and performance dogs and has written numerous books on the subject:

http://www.vetsportsmedicine.com/about/staff_czink.html

Seeing the photos in her presentation of how dogs with their tails use them, as well as their dew claws, said a lot. Especially if I had a dog that did a lot of jumping and quick turns (agility, disc, protection, etc), I'd want a tailed dog with dew claws. My current Rottweiler has a docked tail and her dewclaws removed (not done by me, as she is a rescue dog). If my brother who is stationed in Germany is still there in a couple years and can help me import one when my Rottie is gone, I'd have no issues getting a tailed one with dewclaws. I even had a double dew clawed dog and never had a problem with his.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I guess we are getting close to finding out how many really prick eared dogs there are that are not man made. What blows me away is the AVMa supports the ban, they support mandatory spay and neuter. Got to wonder how long they think they can stay in business when no dogs are being bred a few years down the road.



Good Lord, Don, where do you get your information? That's just blatantly wrong:



> Public Policy
> *The AVMA does not support regulations or legislation mandating spay/neuter of privately owned, non-shelter dogs and cats.* Although spaying and neutering helps control dog and cat populations, mandatory approaches may contribute to pet owners avoiding licensing, rabies vaccination and veterinary care for their pets, and may have other unintended consequences.


http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/population_control.asp


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Butch Cappel said:


> Al, not really sure of any reason other than appearance for the tail docking.


I thought tail docking originated due to tail injuries from working or whatever (drover/herding work, getting stepped on while hunting, pulling carts, whacking their tail into your dinner table repeatedly, etc.) are often prone to infection and repeat injuries (apparently due to poorer blood circulation in the tail), and the amputation as an adult is reportedly more difficult to recover from than as a pup. As for using the tail as a rudder/steering mechanism, as that seems to get brought up, it seems like the animal should be able to learn to run just fine without one as there are plenty-effective bob-tailed animals in nature, and dogs like the Australian Stumpy Tailed Cattle Dog, plus docked dogs that have done just fine historically in the working world.

Point being (and correct me if I'm wrong), there _is_ a historical basis, and I'd rather have a docking done when the dog was young if it would avoid a messier and more painful injury later on in life.

That said, I'm not opposed or a proponent of docking or cropping. The government really should have no reason to care or get involved in docking or cropping. If done right that is, not the kid with scissors, and tough-guy fantasies of giving his dog a battle crop.

-Cheers


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