# Ecollar association



## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

When you use an ecollar are you pairing the stim with the command or with the correction word "phooey". I have heard of both ways just wondering what people use the most. Not a fan of escape training.
Thanks,


----------



## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

I used it for 2 months straight in everyday life but only with the word "no". Never on the field, only on walks or hanging out outside. She got the point pretty quick that when I said "no" I hit the stim button then called her to me & made it a big deal when she got to me. lots of praise. I slowly phased out the collar & now when I say no to something shes doing she stops and hustles to me.

Edit* let me add the only reason I went to this was I was having a problem with her telling me to F off on walks or outside & doing her own thing. Got to be dangerous with cars and horses around here. When she got to far from me I would use the no & stim. Fixed the issue.


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

when I use the e-collar during bite work- one example-dog is on the bite- I will tell Decoy first, stop fighting my dog...then I give dog's name-Out -down... at the same time I say the word OUT, I am giving a stim....this way, he knows when I am saying his name, the next thing I am asking for is the release- 

which could work against some people's training- not wanting the dog to anticipate release on his Name. It just depends on what response you are looking for. I also don't use it every single time once the dog is doing well and Outing each time- but if he shouldn't come OUT on the first request, that doesn't get a stim- i will give a second OUT command, and this one definately gets a stim. 

When I use it for other things- for example, I use it in obedience training.... dog heeling- when I am teaching, I will first give the dog a command, if dog doesn't do the command- as I say the word again, heel-I give the stim at the same time-that is for the dog learning the command. - later for a dog that knows what to do-has learned the lesson well- I will give them the initial command, Dog Heel....if dog fails to do what I am asking- I will give a stim as a correction, without the verbal cue.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I start by combining leash and ecollar corrections together. stim is dialed in really low. It's hard to time the leash and ecollar correction and many times I miss the mark depending on what we are doing. 

I do not use it in the learning phase at all. ONLY in the correction phase. I am not a fan of escape training for the most part. 

If your not careful you can create some weirdness with an ecollar.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

David Stucenski said:


> When you use an ecollar are you pairing the stim with the command or with the correction word "phooey". I have heard of both ways just wondering what people use the most. Not a fan of escape training.
> Thanks,


I pair the stim with the command. I don't pair it with "No" because I'm using it to teach with, not as just a correction for undesired behavior. 

I’m a bit confused by those who are using an Ecollar and/or leash corrections who say they don't like _"escape training."_ Perhaps I'm using a different definition of the term. Escape training is at work anytime the dog is performing to escape something uncomfortable, such as a leash correction or an Ecollar stim. Is there another definition that some are using?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lou Castle said:


> Is there another definition that some are using?


I like to layer it with my tugwork and multilayer/transition it with my recreational/semi pro ob and general behaviour training.

Also general use in communication skillz and inter species understanding.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I like to layer it with my tugwork and multilayer/transition it with my recreational/semi pro ob and general behaviour training.
> 
> Also general use in communication skillz and inter species understanding.


That's the exact same way I use an e-collar, and of course as a spastic colon treatment ;-)


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I introduce the ecollar with a leash correction but there are sooooo many ways to train with them. You are going to find many different opinions here so take them all with a grain of salt and find what works for you. I am a fan of the escape theory for the recall. When done properly, its very effective. But my dog gets to me, I give them a reward. Praise, play, or food. The dog picks the reward, not me.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Lou Castle said:


> I pair the stim with the command. I don't pair it with "No" because I'm using it to teach with, not as just a correction for undesired behavior.
> 
> I’m a bit confused by those who are using an Ecollar and/or leash corrections who say they don't like _"escape training."_ Perhaps I'm using a different definition of the term. Escape training is at work anytime the dog is performing to escape something uncomfortable, such as a leash correction or an Ecollar stim. Is there another definition that some are using?


No your splitting hairs there bro Lou (with all due respect). 

I know what true escape training is whether it's using an ecollar or a table and string. Are there dogs that require that kind of training? Sure but I don't own them. An ecollar is just another piece of equipment to me. I don't see it as the end all and be all of dog training.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm still confused Brian. You seem to be saying that a certain kind of dog needs (or could benefit from) escape training and others don't. Can you give me your definition of "escape training?" Is it different than the one that I gave? 

Not looking for a fight here but not too long ago I had someone tell me that escape training was abusive. Now one of the trainers who many here favor very highly is saying that the way he uses an Ecollar is escape training. He uses that term to include (as per my definition) any training where the dog is performing in order to escape (or prevent in the advanced work) discomfort. 

I agree that an Ecollar is just another piece of equipment. I also don't see it as the end all and be all of dog training.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

For me, stimming until the dog does something desired to end it is escape training.


*Escape training* (to me): Stim until the dog offers a/the behavior that ends it. 


*A correction* (to me): A command is given that has been thoroughly proofed for distraction and venue; the dog does not comply; the correction is a stim.


There are (at least) two ways to use an e-collar as an aversive that (to me) are completely different.

Mo and Jeremy are (to me) describing e-collar corrections, and not escape training.

I would like to escape in advance being typed to death: I've read thirteen million posts by Lou explaining why stimming and commanding at the same time, with continuous stim until the wanted behavior is elicited, are not escape training in Lou's definition.

My definition is mine and Lou's is Lou's. :lol:


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> For me, stimming until the dog does something desired to end it is escape training.
> 
> *Escape training* (to me): Stim until the dog offers a/the behavior that ends it.
> 
> *A correction* (to me): A command is given that has been thoroughly proofed for distraction and venue; the dog does not comply; the correction is a stim.


I agree with both of these definitions. 



Connie Sutherland said:


> I've read thirteen million posts by Lou explaining why stimming and commanding at the same time, with continuous stim until the wanted behavior is elicited, are not escape training in Lou's definition.


You have? Can you point us to such a statement from me please? I don't think this is correct. 



Connie Sutherland said:


> My definition is mine and Lou's is Lou's.


Except that I've just said that I agree with your definition.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I don't think this is correct. "_

Lou said: _"Escape training is at work anytime the dog is performing to escape something uncomfortable, such as a leash correction or an Ecollar stim. Is there another definition that some are using?"
_
You can see that a leash correction following _"A command is given that has been thoroughly proofed for distraction and venue; the dog does not comply"_ is not, in my definition, escape training. However, you likened it to escape training in the above quote.



But agreement with my definition(s) has me all excited and twittery. :lol: So OK! I'll bow to your agreement.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> I agree with both of these definitions. ...I don't think this is correct. .... I've just said that I agree with your definition.



Yup, you did. Good enough for me. I sense typing-to-death danger unless I grab that agreement and run. 





So 'bye.... I'm miles away now, clutching my agreement to my chest and running like hell .....


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Stucenski said:


> When you use an ecollar are you pairing the stim with the command or with the correction word "phooey". I have heard of both ways just wondering what people use the most. Not a fan of escape training.
> Thanks,



So David, is this definition helpful?

For me, stimming until the dog does something desired to end it is escape training. 
*
Escape training* (to me): Stim until the dog offers a/the behavior that ends it. 

A* correction* (to me): A command is given that has been thoroughly proofed for distraction and venue; the dog does not comply; the correction is a stim.


If you accept this definition, then I agree with you that I am not a fan of escape training.


----------



## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> For me, stimming until the dog does something desired to end it is escape training.
> 
> 
> *Escape training* (to me): Stim until the dog offers a/the behavior that ends it.
> ...


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Some comments from a couple of others. 

MICHAEL ELLIS talks about escape and avoidance training with leash and Ecollar. Look at 1:50

MICHAEL ELLIS talks about escape training with constant leash pressure at 4:43.

FROM THIS SITE.


> The same cues can be given to a dog to help a dog to learn what is expected of him. One example might include pushing dog on a dogs back side in order to teach the dog to sit. The pressure on the dogs back side continues until the dog sits. As soon as the dog sits, the pressure is removed. The pressure or physical cues is something that is slightly unpleasant which is removed immediately when the dog complies with the request.
> 
> Some trainers refer to this technique as “escape training.” The dog learns that he can escape the “slightly unpleasant physical cue” by complying with the request. When your dog is taught how to escape the cue, it becomes self rewarding, because the dog wants to remove the cue as fast as possible.


FROM THIS SITE.


> Escape/Avoidance Response: The response to a negative reinforcement of positive punishment method of training. The dog is engaging in a behavior in order to avoid or escape a certain aversive outcome. Can be signaled or un-signaled.


What is the objection of some to escape training?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> What is the objection of some to escape training?



Using the definition we agreed on, you mean?
_
"Escape training (to me): Stim until the dog offers a/the behavior that ends it."_


My objection is to escape training as defined the way we already agreed.



Not sure why the post just made is relevant when we already have a working definition. (I refuse to consider the possibility that it was made to obfuscate what had been a clear and agreed-upon working definition. :lol: )


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> My objection is to escape training as defined the way we already agreed, with regard to the use of the e-collar as an aversive.


Not sure what you mean. Escape training is OK but you don't like to use the Ecollar as the aversive? Are other aversives OK? Or you don't like escape training at all? If the latter, why not?


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3wGsVdAlnc&feature=related


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Not sure what you mean. Escape training is OK but you don't like to use the Ecollar as the aversive? Are other aversives OK? Or you don't like escape training at all? If the latter, why not?



I thought I was so clear, too.  


The thread is about using the e-collar. We defined a term. The definition was :_ "Escape training: Stim until the dog offers a/the behavior that ends it."_


I dislike that method of using the e-collar.


That whole post about other definitions, etc., etc., seemed completely irrelevant to me after we had accepted a definition.




And now I sense _death-by-typing_ (hear that music?) looming in the form of more definitions, other training tools, and honest bewilderment -k ) on your part. :lol:

So I really AM three miles away now, trotting as fast as I can trot, clutching my agreement from you happily to my bosom and not looking back.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I dislike that method of using the e-collar.


OK. Can you tell us why? 

Is it safe to assume that you prefer using the Ecollar for corrections? Any other use you like for it? Or do you not like the Ecollar at all?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I predict this thread will drag on for several more pages before
eventually being locked


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3wGsVdAlnc&feature=related


----------



## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So David, is this definition helpful?
> 
> For me, stimming until the dog does something desired to end it is escape training.
> 
> ...


I do agree with these definitions(me)..........So if you pair it with command is it escape training(above definitions)?? "out"/stim until he outs.....Then "out" see if he outs then if not "stim" corrections(above term)

So for the sake of more drawn out posts:-# using the above definitions......Which have people found works better???


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Stucenski said:


> I do agree with these definitions(me)..........So if you pair it with command is it escape training(above definitions)?? "out"/stim until he outs.....Then "out" see if he outs then if not "stim" corrections(above term)
> 
> So for the sake of more drawn out posts:-# using the above definitions......Which have people found works better???


David 

I do NOT like escape training. You're automatically correcting a dog without giving it a chance to comply with the command. Some might say it isn't a "correction" at low levels but I disagree. I prefer to train and proof a command and then correct for non compliance.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> David
> 
> I do NOT like escape training. You're automatically correcting a dog without giving it a chance to comply with the command. Some might say it isn't a "correction" at low levels but I disagree. I prefer to train and proof a command and then correct for non compliance.


Thank you Thomas ... well put and my sentiments exactly. I DO NOT ever use an ecollar for "teaching" (defined by me as helping the dog/pup learn what I am asking for).


----------



## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

If you are using the ecollar for correction only, you will never have great results. If you want a reliable off leash dog in every situation possible, then you need to use it with all commands in the beginning every single time the command is given. Then after a few weeks when the dog is reliable and understands the collar you move to intermittent stimulation. That means maybe ten commands no collar, one command collar, 5 commands no collar, one command collar. Then when done correctly the collar is there only if needed. If you want to learn ecollar to the highest level then learn from either Bart Bellon or Michael Ellis. Although both their systems are slightly different end result is the same, and I use both extensively. The collar should be not be a negative to the dog. If I pull out a collar my dogs go nuts, because they know we are going to work.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> David
> 
> I do NOT like escape training. You're automatically correcting a dog without giving it a chance to comply with the command. Some might say it isn't a "correction" at low levels but I disagree. I prefer to train and proof a command and then correct for non compliance.


Escape training is not necessarily a correction. If I place pressure on a dog's rump, while pulling upward on the leash, the dog goes into the sit position. That is escape training. The dog assumed the position to escape the pressure. The pressure ceases immediately and the behavior is reinforced. I don't see that as a correction. (I know you didn't mean me "David".)


From the units K9 Manual and the early '70's MWD K9 Manual, (both of thanks to ole B.F.) escape training is defined as: "..........simply the conditioning of the animal by the use of pressure. Generally dogs will yield to lighter forms of pressure and resist heavier pressures.

Both manuals describe "Avoidance Training" as, "......a dog learns not to make a wrong response in order to avoid vocal and/or physical correction."

The military and our K9 Unit do believe in KISS.

DFrost 

Avoidance


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Stucenski said:


> I do agree with these definitions(me)..........So if you pair it with command is it escape training(above definitions)?? "out"/stim until he outs.....Then "out" see if he outs then if not "stim" corrections(above term)
> 
> So for the sake of more drawn out posts:-# using the above definitions......Which have people found works better???


I think that would not be a good method for outing.
although some will say otherwise. 

I use "escape training" (as defined) at low levels for some things, the recall being highly effective for me.


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Whatever gets you the results you want, I think?

I've used e-collar for teaching some things... Proofing other things, paired with "no"... Avoidance training (maybe the term is aversion? crittering, poison-proofing, etc), no command, sometimes with me out of sight...

As for David Frost's example of escape training for the sit. I have a command for repositioning the dog, finger touch to whatever body part and "move" meaning the dog moves it away from pressure. Escape training to get the dog to do it at first, marked and rewarded to train the dog to do it on command. Without the "move" the harder I push the harder the dog will resist.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> David
> 
> I do NOT like escape training. You're automatically correcting a dog without giving it a chance to comply with the command.


That's not any definition of "escape training" that I've seen or that anyone has used so far in this discussion. Can you show us where someone has said that please? 

My definition was _"Escape training is at work anytime the dog is performing to escape something uncomfortable."_ I also supplied a couple of other sources all of which were similar to mine. Michael Ellis' definition was (to the effect) "any training where the dog is performing in order to escape (or prevent in the advanced work) discomfort." Connie's definition was _"stimming until the dog does something desired to end it is escape training."_ 



Thomas Barriano said:


> Some might say it isn't a "correction" at low levels but I disagree.


Who says that it's not a correction because it's _"at low levels?"_ 



Thomas Barriano said:


> I prefer to train and proof a command and then correct for non compliance.


If the dog performs your _"train[ed] and proof[ed] command"_ to escape the stim you're applying it's escape training as everyone else in this thread has defined it.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Michael Ellis' definition was (to the effect) "any training where the dog is performing in order to escape *(or prevent in the advanced work) *discomfort."
> 
> since everyone is splitting hairs here....Did you add what is in parenthesis, or is that Michael Ellis' definition? just curious...
> 
> ...


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

although i am not against using an Ecollar to apply a low level CONSTANT stim a dog will want to avoid as a means of trying to get it to do what i WANT it to do ... i haven't tried that method yet

i have only used it as a correction, at a time and level i feel is appropriate to send a signal to the dog for a learned and partially proofed behavior they CLEARLY know, and redirect their lemon brain back to "the task at hand".....what "I" want them to do (in a "nick" mode, not a constant stim)

fwiw, i also call physically moving or manipulating a dog into a position, compulsion, but that's just my definition, and obviously that's just like an "opinion", so probably not relevant


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> although i am not against using an Ecollar to apply a low level CONSTANT stim a dog will want to avoid as a means of trying to get it to do what i WANT it to do ... i haven't tried that method yet
> 
> i have only used it as a correction, at a time and level i feel is appropriate to send a signal to the dog for a learned and partially proofed behavior they CLEARLY know, and redirect their lemon brain back to "the task at hand".....what "I" want them to do (in a "nick" mode, not a constant stim)
> 
> fwiw, i also call physically moving or manipulating a dog into a position, compulsion, but that's just my definition, and obviously that's just like an "opinion", so probably not relevant


try it sometime...


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote, _"Michael Ellis' definition was (to the effect) "any training where the dog is performing in order to escape *(or prevent in the advanced work) *discomfort."_ Joby added the emphasis. 



Joby Becker said:


> since everyone is splitting hairs here....Did you add what is in parenthesis, or is that Michael Ellis' definition? just curious...


Mr. Ellis talks about the "escape avoidance paradigm." Here are his words from the first video I linked. Starting at about 1:15.


> If I've done leash pressure work and my dog really understands that ... and I use the leash and the Ecollar together, I minimize all the weirdness that can potentially happen or the bad associations or the superstitious associations that can happen. So leash pressure is going to be an integral part of our system of training and it is the escape part of the escape avoidance paradigm. The avoidance part is where the dog learns to avoid an unpleasant consequence by either doing or not doing something. The escape part is where the dog learns to turn pressure off with their behavior. Like pulling the leash, they move, it stops ... I turn off the Ecollar. They down, it stops. (As he says this on the video he lifts his thumb as if lifting it off the button of an Ecollar). That's escape. Avoidance means, of correction. My dog jumps on the counter I hit him with the collar, I bonk him (and he moves his hands as if giving a leash correction) I give him a leash correction, whatever, he figures out that he can avoid that by not jumping on the counter. I can say sit, my dog doesn’t, I can give him a correction (he moves his hands as if giving a leash correction). Next time I say sit he sits in an attempt to avoid what happens afterwards. Pretty straight forward. So all pressure stuff is going to fall into one of those two categories, either the escape portion or the avoidance portion. ...


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> That's not any definition of "escape training" that I've seen or that anyone has used so far in this discussion. Can you show us where someone has said that please?
> 
> My definition was _"Escape training is at work anytime the dog is performing to escape something uncomfortable."_ I also supplied a couple of other sources all of which were similar to mine. Michael Ellis' definition was (to the effect) "any training where the dog is performing in order to escape (or prevent in the advanced work) discomfort." Connie's definition was _"stimming until the dog does something desired to end it is escape training."_
> 
> ...


Lou,

I'm really NOT interested in any internet debate with you.
It's interesting that you're now quoting
Michael Ellis and "explaining" what he means LOL
To paraphrase Lloyd Benson
I've attended several seminars with Michael Ellis, I know Michael Ellis, Michael Ellis is a friend of mine. Lou Castle, you're no Michael Ellis


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Lou, I'm really NOT interested in any internet debate with you.


Understandable. lol


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Did anyone answer the guys question, or where you too busy defining stupidity on the internet ??

If you are going to use the e-collar, then use the thing the whole time. You can debate wether or not you like it, but the use of it produces a pretty well trained dog.

I used it for the recall, and so, all it means is to come back to me. If you have taught everything already, and the dog is starting to test you, then you stim him and make him do what you are asking. At least the dog knows that the choice is his, and it sucks NOT to do what he is being asked.

If you decide NOT to use the e-collar, then you will do essentially the same thing with a pinch or whatever.

I personally hate e-collars as they are great, and then the battery goes wonky, the stupid remote dies, as it lasts longer than the stupid collar, and their about a million other things that annoy the piss out of me, especially the cost. Nothing like watching your dog ignore a command, and the stupid remote is flashing red because to avoid that stupid stupid red flashing light, you have put it on the charger with the collar every time. Now, you have battery memory, and the stupid thing last 20 minutes.

Or the stupid thing doesn't tell you when it is charged, or the remote decides not to work anymore, and the collar works just fine.

The added bonus, is that I got to shell out 400 hard earned dollars, to have it become retarded in just a few years or less.

Once I get production going on my NOT NEARLY AS RETARDED e-collar, I am going to take the dog training world by storm. 

Escape training is used by some of the best dog trainers I have ever seen.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

A slight tangent. Am I the only one who first saw the topic and thought
someone was starting an E-collar association? like
REmote Training Association of Reliable Devices aka RETARD


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> A slight tangent. Am I the only one who first saw the topic and thought
> someone was starting an E-collar association? like
> REmote Training Association of Reliable Devices aka RETARD



Well, I didn't actually come up with a proposed acronym, but yeah, that was my first thought when I read the title: some kind of organization.

Also a tad o.t.: I kinda like the cynical advertising slogan Jeff proposes for his newer better e-collar.

I guess NNAR will be pronounced "nar" with heavy emphasis on the "n" because there are two. 

Users can be nnarly.


----------

