# First time hidden sleeve / civil scenario



## Benjamin Espindola (Mar 17, 2010)

Today we did a first "civil" agitation. I would like to know your opinion:

Background: The dog is a female GSD from working lines, almost 2 years old. Have lived with me and my family since she was 2 1/2 months old.

We have been doing obedience and protection training from say 1 year (6 months since started biting work).

So today we set for a first civilian agitation. I was on the field we usually train, I was talking with our regular decoy with my dog on a leash standing there. 

The new decoy (I didn't knew him, nor my dog), approached from aside and simulated an aggression to us.

My dog's reaction was as follows:

Hesitated for a second or two. Somewhat like assesing the threat or like thinking "what is this about?"

Then statred barking and charged to the end of the leash, but still seems like hesitating. She circled back to me and charged again a couple of time. The decoy was now close enough as to receive a bite, but the dog stepped also back but still facing him and barking.

The decoy intesified the threats (more sudden movements and and yelling), and even offered the arm with a hidden sleeve.

The dog hesited and bite (I would say softly) and realesed, but still facing and barking. The decoy offered a bite once again. The dog bited and realses again. Bites a third time and tears the decoys sweatshirt. 

We backed a little and the decoys grabs a stick (now sleeve is visible). The dog re-engaes and bites better and does not realeses.


The decoy is now on the ground, the the regular decoy gets in a threatens the dog. The dog engages him as usual (bite and holds, etc).

Now the question, does this seems like a normal first time? The decoy thinks that it wasn't as bad as I thought and that is just matter of additional civil agitations.

Any question or comment welcome

Benjamin


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If it was me doing the work, or my dog, I would not have done it that way at all....

If I was the "new" decoy that was brought in unfamiliar with the dog to test it, I would not have done that setup...but if I did, I would have reacted very strongly as if I was hurt when the dog bit, no matter how good or bad it was. 

Depending...maybe limp around screaming and come in for one more bite,fell down, crawled away and let dog chase me outta there, or just shuffle off "injured" and let the dog chase me out of there on the first bite.

If this was the first time ever doing civil agitation, I would not have offered a bite, until more sessions and the confidence and aggression shows that the dog WANTS to take a bite.

I probably would have then tied the dog out on his own, agitated him on his own, and then see how it goes. A dog that is ready for that type of work should at least protect itself from a threat.

I most definitely NOT have taken the sweatshirt off and showed the dog the sleeve to get a better bite, that defeats the purpose if you are looking for any type of realism in my opinion.

This is NOT how I would progress the dog, and is not typical of the way I have ever seen it done by other people.

The dog was not prepared, and nothing was done to to boost his confidence accordingly to what it sounds like you were trying to accomplish, from how you describe it.

If you want a dog that may bite a hidden sleeve well, you may be working towards that at least.

Just my opinions, people do things differently....

What are you trying to accomplish with the dog?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

sounds like this was more of a test than training.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> sounds like this was more of a test than training.


sounds like it to me too...an ill-prepared and poorly executed one from what I can tell if the goal is PP.
that is why I would have just let dog chase me off, to boost his confidence for that type of situation, I would not have stripped off the shirt and showed him the sleeve, which then turns this test into a training scenario on his home field with visible sleeves...

that is just me though, everyone is different.


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## Benjamin Espindola (Mar 17, 2010)

Thank for the comment. Yes it was actualy a test and I do agree (given the results) that is was not set up properly.

Now if I got correctly you comments Joby you would have set up a no fail test? And I would guess you would have done so as to avoid our result? And if so, it means that my dog reaction was something to be expected?

My objetive is to have dog able to resolve succesfully a threat.


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## Benjamin Espindola (Mar 17, 2010)

We didnt showed the sleeve on purpose. The dog stripped the sweatshirt. Still i got the point on the bad thought set up.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

a test is a test. 

look at it like getting a grade as opposed to pass/fail, say the dog got a "C", without any real training that would have prepared him better for the test, from the sounds of it...

Only going by what is posted, not judging...

If the goal is to resolve the threat, the dog DID bite even though he was (probably) not really prepared well for it, so he did NOT fail, even if he did not bite well, or did not bite at all but showed aggression, he should be rewarded by working on absolving his hesitations and fears, by having decoy act severly hurt with any bite, and scared as hell even if dog did not bite, and having dog chase the "threat" away....

If I was the agitator I would have rewarded him for his performance within the parameter and goal of the test, instead of changing the test to something totally different.

By having decoy back off the pressure and still hang around to take more bites (and NOT retreat), this to me, intimates to the dog that he did NOT hurt the guy, or thwart the threat, it just helped teach the dog that there was NO real threat to begin with...and it did not really help, although it did probably make the people involved "feel" better about the results after the other bites..could have ended in a way that would have maybe prepared him to get a C+ the next time he was put in that situation.

again just my opinion..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have a dog that I work with, that the owner wants to try some hidden sleeve work soon with a testing situation. We may do it tomorrow. 

The big difference would be that I have worked the dog before, so not really comparable to a stranger doing it, but dog still has not ever bitten hidden equipment.

If he allows some video of it I will share if I can, will probably depend on how the dog performs LOL...would not be anything special, but could help show how I would do it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Joby!
You threw two new, different pictures at the dog. A hidden sleeve and a new helper. 
Kudos to the dog that handles this well on the first shot at it but not all will. 
Your dog's reaction doesn't make it good or bad. It just possible needs a different approach to the training


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

In the very beginning, when your dog charged the decoy, the decoy should have shown fear, submission and then retreated. You could have repeated this exercise several times before having the decoy come in closer. These "succeses" will build her confidence. 

Take it slow and step-by-step. At each step, reward her for her courage with the decoy feigning fright and submission before retreating away from her. She will gain confidence. 

Assuming you have laid a solid foundation in preliminary bitework, I would then have the decoy come to you in a peaceful manner with your dog tied off beside you (in a harness and using a bungee, preferably). The decoy then push you down and and then get on the ground with you and then feign strikes to your body while you vocalize your "pain". The decoy being on the ground will make him less intimidating to your dog. Once this is happening your dog will, Ideally, bite the decoy. She might bite for an instant or just a nip. When she does this you must, instaneously, praise her while the decoy must, instaneously, moan in pain (not scream, not yet...you don't want his scream to frighten your dog off the bite), feign submission and retreat as fast as possible all the while you are praising your dog. Rinse and repeat. Her bites will become better and stronger. 

As your dog's confidence grows the decoy should become a little more staunch with your dog and have him "fight" with your dog a little bit before retreating. Take it slow but have the decoy push her gently along a little further each time you get together. 

Eventually, hopefully, your dog will progress to the point that, no matter how hardcore and intense the decoy is, your dog will KNOW that she is going to win and to just bite the bejeebers out of him. 

When (if) she's at this point you can start to mix up things. You can have her to bitework on top of a picnic table, an old car, around gunfire (test her first for that), smoke, on a slick surface, etc. You want to build the dog to where there is nothing she hasn't seen, heard or experienced. 

Video your sessions and then watch them afterwards. You'll pick up on things you didn't catch in the excitement of the sessions. You'll learn from them. Also, use common sense and don't listen to know-it-alls who will give you a list of 20 things you did wrong. YOU have to read your own dog and gauge what is working and where she is in her training. The more your work her the easier it will become for both of you. 

Good luck!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Benjamin,

You asked for comments, I made some...
If it seemed like I was bagging on you, I was not, as I said it is just MY opinion, and people do things differently. 

Patrick has also provided you with a good path to follow as far as an overall progression of a method, also saying that what was done was not right in his opinion.

Another main thing to keep in mind is to make sure your decoys are also working towards your goal and that they are reading your dog well, in addition to you being able to read her.

Good luck with your training, keep us posted on the progression.


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## Benjamin Espindola (Mar 17, 2010)

Didn't feel any one was bagging at all. I posted with the intention to receive comments and opinion. Thanks to all who did it. 

It makes perfect sense that the decoy should have fleed, as to build trust. We will keep training as normaly we do and probably try to set something in some weeks.

From what I have seen already we will need to build her confidence up. Maybe scaring new decoys away and so on?

I'll keep posting progress, and will try to video something next week.

Thanks again


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Benjamin Espindola said:


> Didn't feel any one was bagging at all. I posted with the intention to receive comments and opinion. Thanks to all who did it.
> 
> It makes perfect sense that the decoy should have fleed, as to build trust. We will keep training as normaly we do and probably try to set something in some weeks.
> 
> From what I have seen already we will need to build her confidence up. Maybe scaring new decoys away and so on?


Building confidence is never an incorrect path. 

I would for sure ask the decoy first if you plan to share any video, although this forum has a section dedicated to Personal Protection training, the practice is not very highly regarded by many who post here.
The decoys work most likely will be highly scrutinized. You may want to pick a few people to PM about it first, get a few different opinions and see if any of those fit into what you are doing with the dog..



> Background: The dog is a female GSD from working lines, almost 2 years old. Have lived with me and my family since she was 2 1/2 months old.
> We have been doing obedience and protection training from say 1 year (6 months since started biting work).


Can you give a description of the progression you have taken with the dog to date? What type of work you have been doing, etc...

It is unclear to me, you started OB an protection about a year and 1/2 ago, and I think you are saying you started bitework about 6 months ago? 

Is that correct? If it is, what have you been doing protection wise, anything before 6 months ago?


Some things to think about is having dog scare decoys away from a distance at first, progressively getting closer and more threatening over time. I like to do this on a narrow path in the woods at night, dogs are natuarally more suspicious at night time, the dark itself will raise the stress level of the dog, without the decoy having to stress the dog much at all. Do it in a bunch of other places as well, do it at the house, in the car, in an alley, possibly in a kennel, some of these these things can make a barrier so the dog feels more secure from harm, if she needs it. To only do PP on a regular training field is not the best way in my opinion, it sets up an expected pattern, think about it, I doubt anyone will ever try to attack or threaten you on the field for real. Even if you get decent results, the dog may not perform in other areas.

I really think most dogs are mainly responding to a threat or challenge that they perceive to themselves in many situations, that is why I talked about testing the dog on its own, I could be way off base,from other people... but I would not think of using a dog for PP if it would not protect itself at a minimum. Again, that is just how I look at it.

Good luck with her.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

If it was a test- the teacher should get a big F. Its like testing a kid for Algebra when they can barely add. It was too much for the dog and you may have taken a few steps back in your training. I'm agreeing with Patrick, when the dog charged the first time, the decoy should have showed fear, maybe even been chased off by the dog. New helper, new equipment that isn't visible, not allowing the dog to win isn't a good way to move forward. Putting the dog in defense got a few defensive bites but probably knock her confidence down a bit. The trainer and the helper should have seen the first reaction and stopped it right there or changed it up for her to win. Yes, you need to test the dog but not for something it hasn't been trained for.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

this kind of is like the testing vs ruining thread. Test them but dont push them so far that you have to fix the problem you make.


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