# neutering and dog on dog agression



## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Not to get into a discussion on health reasons to neuter or not to neuter.

Do you think male on male aggression is diminished is both male dogs are neutered? 

What about if just one of the dogs is neutered?

I've read opinions that it makes this intact dog react more like he would to a pup.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Anne Wilson said:


> Do you think male on male aggression is diminished is both male dogs are neutered?
> 
> What about if just one of the dogs is neutered?
> 
> .




That's not been my experience. It isn't the hangy downs that make a dog, dog aggressive. Of course, other may have different experiences. I'm talking about high drive working dogs.

DFrost


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

No. I castrated my dobe and he is still dog aggressive.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

training is how to work with dog aggression , neutering is not a quick fix, but it wouldnt HURT 
if i started having issues with my 2 intact males i would probbaly neuter and continue to work with the dogs , not that neutered dogs dont fight cuz they do , but you are taking some testosterone out of the pic, which should help a bit


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have not seen it change anything as far as that goes.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne, do you mean aggression between males in the same household that already don't like each other? Hasn't been my experience that it's helped. It might, but if there's a history there, some dog hold grudges and have long memories. And there's a lot of dogs that were neutered before sexual maturity that are still plenty dog aggressive as adults. Some of it's going to be genetic and some environmental.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

David Frost said:


> That's not been my experience. It isn't the hangy downs that make a dog, dog aggressive. Of course, other may have different experiences. I'm talking about high drive working dogs.
> 
> DFrost


That's my experience as well. I don't even think the high drive should come into the equation, although experience has shown me it can!!!


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## Keith Earle (Mar 27, 2006)

NO my gsd is mean as ever,


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## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

I recently picked up a stray pup (no, not in the habit but it was caught in traffic). Pup is male and probably about 6-7 months old.

I have two adult GSDs.

short intro, on lead in fairly neutral area showed me that there is probably no problem with my high strung bitch, but my normally low key (intact) male was another story.

I will say, however, that after walking them and letting them get a bit closer and closer, I was able to have each in a down about 10' from each other without angst on either dog.

The little rescue shows typical puppy behavior - bowing, happy face.

Have had suggestions to neuter one or both.

Can't seem to find a home for the pup, so he's mine for the foreseeable future


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have seen dogs like your male, and I do not like them. It is a character flaw to me. If the pup was acting aggro, sure, but that type of insecurity is just BS. Neuter the GSD as well.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Yor male may most likely have some dominance iussues if he's reacting aggressively towards a non-aggressive pup. Up his training till you feel like a drill sargeant.
IMO you should put your foot down & let him know theres only 1 top dog & he aint it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

And then, when you are not looking, he attacks the puppy. That is how it works.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Anne Wilson said:


> I recently picked up a stray pup (no, not in the habit but it was caught in traffic). Pup is male and probably about 6-7 months old.
> 
> I have two adult GSDs.
> 
> ...



What was the other story? Did he growl, snap, bark, posture, bite you trying to get to the pup? What did the male dog do?

Does the male dog have a hard time with any new dogs? In training, away from home? Could be as simple as a neuter for the pup, so he doesn't smell like a male, or a lifetime thing with the two dogs. It would help to know what the adult male did that was so out of character.


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## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Since the 'puppy' is 6 months old, is there a chance he is adult from dog's perspective?

Seems like that puppy lisence gives out about the same time.

Jeff, he will not be near the pup unless both are under control.

Neuter question came up and I did note he was not the least bit aggressive to a friend's young female lab.

My male will stay - his good side is that he is wonderful with people and children... 

He's been slower to mature and I'm guessing he's feeling his oats.

I'll certainly keep trying to find a home for the little rescue.. I think he's be a great little fellow (40lbs) for someone into agility. He's smart, learning basics quickly and has springs for legs.


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## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Dave, I'd say "growl, snap, bark, posture" would describe my males behavior. No, no snapping and biting toward me.. in fact heeded my verbal correction to 'cut that out.' My husband, who normally does not work with the dogs had him on lead and I had the pup on lead.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

It doesn't sound like anything too exciting from your description.

A previous male gsd I had, liked to exert a little authority/dominance over a new dog, fine once past the initial meeting (off lead). My first gsd was very dog aggressive, I too brought in a young stray (lurcher type), I kept them separate in the home but when out...off lead. That gsd screamed trying to catch him to beat him up for the first fortnight...couldn't catch him so after that he would even move over and let the stray eat out of his bowl lol. 

Hard to say on the internet.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

put them on separate sides of a chain link fence and see let them check each other out. Don't be involved. See if there is any real issue. Have a plan, IE call the adult male away if any real aggression shows itself. Dogs bark and snap and growl when they interact. They do that sometime. They are dogs. If your adult is challenged by the pup, that might explain the barking and growling. 

Also if it was at a great distance, chances are, the adult male smelled the puppy. Neutering will take the male smell away. Sometimes a fix, sometimes not.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Some dogs just don't want to be bothered with puppies. Many older pups are dumped because they are getting active, energetic, and have no manners. I totally sympathise with an older dog who will snark and snap to tell the pup to bugger off and go bother someone else (It is up to me to manage the pup so that they don't have to).

There is a difference between that and the dog who will growl and posture and attempt to dominate the pup at every opportunity.

Again a difference between that and a dog who wants to kill the newcomer.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

worst thing to do is do it onlead...

If it was me I would turn em loose together in large fenced area that is not your yard...see what happens...

that is me though, could go wrong....but most likely male would bowl him over, punk him out and would be fine...

only you know your dogs though...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

My intact male has got to be the "nicest" dog around other dogs I have ever seen. He is basically dog neutral, but confident and disarms snarky dogs by just ignoring them and walking away.

He is also terribly patient with puppies.

He does tend to want to do the "dominance" thing with other older males ..(head over shoulder/head butting but I usually just tell him to stop it.....and never leave him "unsupervised" around another male.

Both of my neutered males were dog reactive - could have been poor genetics causing lack of confidence but I wonder as I have heard early neutering can cause that as well (same thing for spaying females young)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think male on male aggression is one of the very few things neutering can help in dogs "IF" it's purely a testosterone thing. Even then the adrenal gland still produces a bit of testosterone and that may be enough with some dogs.
I wouldn't tolerate ANY adult dog that will aggressively attack a puppy. Ignore them, walk away from them, growl them off, even mouth them, but actual aggression on a pup is efd up!


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> And then, when you are not looking, he attacks the puppy. That is how it works.


Three words for ya. Muzzle. E-collar. Concealment.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

The only "for sure" thing is that he won't get testicular cancer, that's it. He still could have aggression issues but maybe not. Its a role of the dice. I introduce my dogs through the fence over a few weeks.


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## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Hurrah!

Did a little really basic obedience with big dogs - giving them treats for commands they obviously know well -- like "heir" and "sitz." They don't get many treats for that sort of stuff.

Then, one by one I let them come close to the pup. No problem with my bitch. Then brought my big guy in and he started to growl (the pup was barking at him). I corrected him but then went on with a "sitz," treat, "platz" treat - all right by the pup's crate. When I saw my male was more interested in a bit of hot dog than the pup, I felt like I was almost home free.

Later took the pup in the main back yard and let my girl out with him. Really no problem. She herded him a bit but that was all.

Then brought her in and let Jack (male) out. There was a minor ruffle which I verbally corrected then called him to me and gave him a treat.

After a bit of play back and forth, I let all three in the yard together. So much smoother than I imagined. Pup tested a bit and big guys gave him the kind of empty threat ( grumble or obvious air snap) to tell him he was being annoying.

Only iffy moment was when pup sort of challenged them and both put him down. I stepped in and corrected all three ( just my stance and verbal correction) and it was instantly diffused.

Jack, my big guy, found his frisbee in the grass and dared the pup to come get it. I rounded up all toys and put them out of the yard.

All and all a successful first go.

Pup will be crated when I'm not right there, but I'm guessing it will work out.

I think I misread Jack's stance toward the pup. Think he's just establishing his rank over the stray.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I have a neutered male who is DA. Introducing him to other dogs on lead or through a fence is a bad idea...it just compounds his aggression. I've found that focused obedience around other dogs has helped a lot. IMO, it has been beneficial that I keep him separate from new dogs for months before I ever (if I do) let them be out together.

In my relatively limited experience, I have found that teaching neutrality and playing the role of prevention has been super helpful.

And no, I would never leave him unsupervised with any dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Three words for ya. Muzzle. E-collar. Concealment.

So the dog lives his entire life like that. Sounds as if it fixed itself from her post. Magic isn't it ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I think maybe we should discuss Ann's understanding of dogs. :grin:


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## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Go for it!

I'm not sensative and have much to learn - though not to long to learn it.

I'm old!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Got to much pluck to be that old Anne. LOL Couldn't have had a better come back.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anne, why not let dogs work it out, why correct it? as long as they are not attacking the pup to hurt or kill it?

just curious...better they work it out now, than later when pup is mature and you are not there to intervene, or when your "corrections" do not work...in my opinion...

again only you know the dogs....so maybe I am off based and they were gonna kill the pup...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Let a PUP and an adult work it out??? That doesn't sound good for the pup.


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## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

pretty much letting what I see as normal posturing and jostling for pack position happen.

Stepped in initially just to let my big guy know I was in charge there and would only brook so much.

Stepped in again when the threesome took it a bit over the top and I thought their play was on the edge with pup the target of my two ganging up.

Pup is new, smaller and odd man out. Doesn't seem to have a lot of dog manners but is learning quickly.

Today was their first encounter.

I'll spend more sessions with them tomorrow.

I could be wrong, but I always think 3 is a difficult number and they need to get their roles ironed out.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Let a PUP and an adult work it out??? That doesn't sound good for the pup.


Don, obviously if the dog tries to kill the pup that would not be the way to go...I would try it, that is me though...

You are doing the same with your dogs, the pup tests the adults, the adults let him know what is up....

She has gsd not terriers, or fighting breeds..the dogs she is talking about probably are not fighters or puppy killers..the puppy is play bowing, I was just saying what I would do, and if the dog is not violently attacking the pup, and is posturing and bowling him over, I would let them teach him his place...instead of stopping or punishing natural order of things..it is a stray pup picked up, not a prized working dog.

If the dog goes straight to the pup and tried to kill it, that is different thing. Only she knows the dogs...doesn't sound to me like they want to kill the pup. 

On leash is terrible way to introduce dogs period, and unless they are fighting or game dogs or dogs that hate puppies for some reason, I think it is best to let them school the pup...he will learn his boundaries quickly...he will learn to keep his distance and how to properly approach and interact with the dog...

I have introduced plenty of dogs together, for other people as well. It "usually" works out fine, unless they are fighters, or hate pups for some reason...if they went to the pup to "attack" or if the dog does not let the pup get up or move, after repeated attempts from the pup, and goes back to him and puts him back down, then I would get involved...

I have had fighters and pup haters, and that will never work without intervening and control... but I knew they were like that. Most dogs will assimilate if they are "normal" type dogs...

I am sure with all your dogs and all your yards, there is some working out that goes on...without you getting in the middle of it, unless you have too...

I agree it might not be the greatest idea for her to try it, if she is gonna freak out with a little aggression, again only she knows her dogs...just asking a question about why he intervened...thats all...


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## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Anne Wilson said:


> pretty much letting what I see as normal posturing and jostling for pack position happen.
> 
> Stepped in initially just to let my big guy know I was in charge there and would only brook so much.


Joby, I appreciate what you're saying. Stepped in the first time just to let my male know that he couldn't test _my_ limits. He's been a dog that's slow to mature and is just now testing _his _limits. 



Anne Wilson said:


> Stepped in again when the threesome took it a bit over the top and I thought their play was on the edge with pup the target of my two ganging up.


This time I stood up when it looked as if my two were hyping each other with pup at bottom of the pile unable to move as they ramped up.

Neither time did I use big time corrections, just my presence and a "cut that out."

For the rest of a good 45 minutes, I let posturing, chasing, barking, the sort of growl open mouth bite (no clamping down) dogs do in play or in chastising a small pup go on unfettered. And did let simple wrestling take place.

Not sure how much interaction this stray has had with other dogs. _His_ manners needed some correction - by my dogs. 

I have about an acre, so they had plenty of room to move and interact freely.

I'm not comfortable letting all three out without supervision yet so will keep them separate and increase together time as I'm able to monitor.

Thanks for the input.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

If it were me, I would allow the interactions to happen while supervising from a manageable distance.
In my experience, the older dogs with social skills will school a younger pup, and rightfully so. IF that adolescent has the balls to challenge your adult on his turf, god help him and let what happens happen. Obviously you will need to supervise and limit the level of correction, but I would not be too hasty to step in unless it were truly life threatening. But thats me. Time will be telling you soon enough and it is only been a minute of time in dog years, lol.
If your dog was grossly intolerant or truly aggressive or absolutely possessive of his territory, he would have meant business by now with the mongrel. 
I find that if you do not allow these things to work themselves out it will remain to be an unresolved issue the more you interfere with the progress. But thats just my take on it and I am not there, and this is the internet so its all subjective, but from what you are describing your dogs seem balanced and stable in this situation.
If you plan on keeping the mutt, I would certainly neuter the thing, why wouldn't you would be my thought.
Best of luck and keep us posted on your progress.


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## Anne Wilson (Aug 14, 2007)

Kerry Foose said:


> I find that if you do not allow these things to work themselves out it will remain to be an unresolved issue the more you interfere with the progress..


Something to consider.

Thanks for the input


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Jeff its not magic. Its training plain and simple. Muzzle is for when they're being tested in the master's absence to prevent injury. concealment is to see the dogs reaction when they think they're alone/unsupervised. E-collar is for administering the correction to the offending dog only when he offends, while he cant see or hear you. So after a bit, he will see that aggressive beaviour is not tolerated in your presence, and punishment can be administered even if you arent around.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You have had some dumb ass dogs. I have dealt with pet dogs with this kind of problem, and they just work the muzzle off when you are gone and go at it. 

You cannot hide from a dog with half a brain that wants to end the other bitch, and really, how many people have any discipline at all in todays world ? I am not telling someone whose first couple of posts are basically, my dogs are shitters and should be destroyed to do anything but get rid of the dogs. The female wants to bite a kid, the male wants to kill the rescue, oh wait, just kidding, nothing going on here, move along.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Jeff its not magic. Its training plain and simple. Muzzle is for when they're being tested in the master's absence to prevent injury. concealment is to see the dogs reaction when they think they're alone/unsupervised. E-collar is for administering the correction to the offending dog only when he offends, while he cant see or hear you. So after a bit, he will see that aggressive beaviour is not tolerated in your presence, and punishment can be administered even if you arent around.


one may have to view this scenario as a training exercise to buy into that theory....but at the end of the day unless you plan to camp out with night vision and deploy covert observation tactics 24-7 this would be pointless. 
Geez, let them be friggin dogs for crying out loud.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've always let my dogs work out their own structure even when I had multiple terriers.
Since I picked and raised 99% of my dogs from pups I understand what each was/is all about. That goes a very long way in knowing they can work out their own social structure. 
My two intact, male GSDs are together now, 24/7 with no problems.
That was the same with all my terriers and they were always together...other them when a bitch was in season of course.


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