# war dogs video



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the one Joby posted :
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xogp5n_war-dogs-of-the-pacific_shortfilms#.UZB0IkYhrb1

i read one comment on another thread that said it was a great vid, amazing, etc etc

i agree it was an interesting and very good vid, but after i watched it, a few things struck me that i hadn't considered before.

i'm curious what kind of "takeaways" others might have come away with after watching it.

btw, i'm referring to training, dog selection and use/deployment of mwd's, etc., NOT the emotional and historical aspect of the documentary

and i also realize mwd breed selection, tactics and uses have evolved since WWII 
.... current and ex-mwd handlers feel free to join in, since after all, it is where your roots were planted. especially interested to hear their comments.

if it seems like a thread worth talking about i'll throw in my .02 too


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

But isn't that the point,in a simple way, they took ' Pet dogs ' and transformed them. No analysing blood lines, endless real versus sports dogs. Just had to work with what they got. These days the war would be over by the time they had sourced ' the perfect dog'


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lynn oliver said:


> But isn't that the point,in a simple way, they took ' Pet dogs ' and transformed them. No analysing blood lines, endless real versus sports dogs. Just had to work with what they got. *These days the war would be over by the time they had sourced ' the perfect dog*'


what does this mean?


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

What it says, just a light hearted comment on how much red tape there would be nowadays. Perhaps the USA don't have that.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

War is never over. No dog is ever perfect. 





Joby Becker said:


> what does this mean?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

lynn oliver said:


> *But isn't that the point,in a simple way, they took ' Pet dogs ' and transformed them.* *No analysing blood lines, endless real versus sports dogs. Just had to work with what they got.* These days the war would be over by the time they had sourced ' the perfect dog'


This is why I thought it was amazing vid and also the words of the handlers, the history aspect and the old footage.

There wasn't much at all on training techniques in there rick other than a bit of line agitation which IMO is pretty piss poor technique.
One interesting part which I have talked about in another thread either here or on another forum was the idea of 'gentle' methods of training. I have heard this first hand off a very old military dog trainer/handler who stopped to talk to me when I was out shopping with Sali my Mal. His eyes welled up when he talked to me about his GSD which he had been in active service with like 60 years earlier. He had managed to talk his superiors into letting him take it home with him but when it got old it bit the oddjob man, so he shot it himself, said he couldn't let the vet do it, it was his job to do it he said. That dog was his best friend as far as he was concerned.
THIS is the part I found amazing, the way they talked about their dogs.
Man when my last dog died aged 11 I was devastated, I been through some shit with that dog but nothing compared to these guys on this film and military handlers today, I cannot conceive of how they felt when their dogs were killed or just died.

It's not ALL about training results and analysis with dogs , some of it is about heart.


Anyway to address the actual questions you pose, my input would be how come these dobermans did so well when the breed in general is full of relatively useless pissers? 
Were all the good dogs killed in this particular period?
Did they come back and were to old to breed?
I would be very interested to find out what happened to these dobermans when they got back and indeed are there any descendants?

Anyone that has been within a few miles of a very heavy artillery shell impacting knows what I am talking about when I say the experience is ****in mental to say the least. My dobermans are OK with it, against the odds, but I have met plenty of dobermans that would either:

A: die of a heart attack, oh wait that not unusual for a dobe....
B: run like Usain Bolt as far away as possible in random direction
C: hide behind/underneath/on top of their owner (I won't use the word handler in this context)

Basically it was great to see dobermans actually being able and in fact excelling at a job under very arduous conditions from contemporary sources.
However it makes it all the more sad that they have been ruined by idiot fat old women that 'couldn't let their precious bite a man in a suit, it would not be nice would it schnuckums'
Or the breeders that claim 'Dobermans don't need to be trained to be protective or bite!'
WTAF? 
These people need a good thrashing, they have taken once awesome breed and just destroyed it, all for what?
So anyone can handle one and they look all 'elegant and pretty'.
FFS rant over.......maybe

Putting dobermans to one side, this old fella isn't the only active service dog handler I have met because of my dogs. I also met a fella who was a decoy in the army who I have spoken to about 'stuff' he too emphasized the need to be fair and not forceful on the dogs.
I have seen many sources on the internet also which illustrate Military trainers to have been miles ahead of civilian trainers in this aspect for a very long time. 
Addressing dog selection:
My malionois pup, all but one other of her litter went to the military, the one stayed with the breeder, I have no idea why they chose this litter or the thinking behind it. Not saying it was a bad choice just pointing out what happened, seems a bit random to me but I know next to nothing about Malinois pedigrees. The pups were already earmarked by the military before they were even born. I was told the sire was a military police dog apparently, don't know what bearing that has on the situation.
It would be interesting to know though and maybe I will find out.
I remembered talking to another Mal breeder who's family had been breeding them for generations saying that in the UK the police and Military would only accept KC registered dogs for some reason and she only 'papered' the pups from her litters going to these places.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

One of my favorite Dobermann movies. I especially like to point out the Floppy eared Dobermann on the crate in the first minute to all my C&D purists friends. I guess maybe the Dobermann hasn't "always been a cropped and docked breed"?


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> War is never over...


We didn't beat Japan? Uh oh. My public school education has failed me.


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> We didn't beat Japan? Uh oh. My public school education has failed me.


?? we are still at war we still have men and women in harms way so no its not over for some


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

As long as there are two humans left on this planet, there will be conflict. 



catherine hardigan said:


> We didn't beat Japan? Uh oh. My public school education has failed me.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I think todays military dogs are tested ALOT harder but that was a great film. I don't know what eactly they are expected to do nowadays. I think they do a lot of bomb detection stuff.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

*Jungle dogs*

Rick, thank you for posting this, another documentary that I didn't know existed but was worth watching.

I admired the handlers' personal commitment to detraining the dogs. 

When my grandfather returned to Australia from combat in the New Guinea jungle, he brought along an Irish Setter that had been debarked for use as a jungle dog by the Japanese. The dog was as skinny as the man, due worms and jungle rot and malaria (do dogs get that?). I think they kind of propped up each other in their transition to civilian life. My mom told me they were "one-talks", which I guess is pidgin for meaning they could communicate through their hearts.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

*Re: Jungle dogs*



Meg O'Donovan said:


> My mom told me they were "one-talks", which I guess is pidgin for meaning they could communicate through their hearts.


I like that.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

credit should go to Joby for finding/posting the video ....


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

I actually posted the suggestion to watch 'War Dogs of the Pacific ' in response to the comment that Dobes might always have been useless. I recorded it from the TV a.couple of years ago and being a Dobe owner myself for 25 years just loved it. I am glad that so many are now enjoying it.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

There is a little bit of myth in the WW II Doberman story. Capt. William Putney, featured on the video and head of the Marine war dog program and Lt Taylor, another principle officer under Putney, took this view toward the end of the war:

Toward the end of the war, there was a decision in the Marine Corps to abandon use of the Doberman Pinchers. (Lemish, 1996) This is the pivotal report by Marine Lt. William T. Taylor, commander of the Second War Dog Platoon:
"Although a few of the Dobermans performed in an excellent manner, it is considered that this breed is, in general, unsuited for combat duty due to its highly temperamental and nervous characteristics. They also failed to stand up as well as the other types under field conditions. On the whole, the Doberman proved to be more excitable and nervous than the other breeds under combat conditions, and required much time and effort on the part of his handler at all times in order to keep him properly calmed down and under control. Although admirably suited for certain types of security work, dogs of this breed are not desired as replacements for the 2d and 3d War Dog Platoons."
Lt. Taylor went on:
"They [German Shepherds] stood up excellently under field conditions; and throughout their health average has been very high. Possibly the fact that this group were not so highly bred may have had some bearing on their more stable qualities and better stamina. All German Shepherds were available for front line duty at all times."
(Lemish, 1996)p129
Lemish goes on to comment: 
"Taylor's report, accepted on face value, meant the beginning of the end for the Doberman Pinscher as a military working dog."


References:

Lemish, M. G. (1996). _War Dogs, a History of Loyalty and Heroism._ Washington: Brassey's.





Putney, W. (2003). Always Faithful, A Memoir of the Marine Dogs of WWII. Brassey's.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim,

Was that post really necessary?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jim,
> 
> Was that post really necessary?


 
Why run from the truth? It will set you free


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Devil dawgs.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

one documentary doesn't tell the whole story, nor does a few paragraphs pasted from a book

dobes did some great work and now not many of them can or do...that's the reality ... get past it either way

had NOTHING to do with why i started this thread :-(

if anyone wants to delve into why we don't see doberman psds's :
- have at it .. on your own damn thread

forums SHOULD be simple :
you don't have to post a reply if you have nothing to contribute
you don't have to post if you think it is boring
you should reply if you think the thread is useless or stoopid, because i happen to believe some questions are stoopid
- but imnsho you are RUDE if you ignore the Q's and give it your own personal spin in another direction 

..... whether you are "real or not ](*,)](*,)

that's how i see it, and i just happened to get quite a few interesting "take aways" from that documentary...and wondered if anyone else did


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Every dog has his day.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> one documentary doesn't tell the whole story, nor does a few paragraphs pasted from a book
> 
> dobes did some great work and now not many of them can or do...that's the reality ... get past it either way
> 
> ...


It's a forum get past it......

The doberman issue is relevant to:
"i'm curious what kind of "takeaways" others might have come away with after watching it." 

Also to:
"i'm referring to training, *dog selection* and use/deployment of mwd's, etc."

The doberman issue is a relevant one to some people dude, including myself. I had heard information along the lines of Jim Engels post. So what I "took away" from that video seemingly was a bunch of propaganda.

Seeing as they were so widely used in the pacific conflict and now they are not I would say the Doberman holds part of the key to part of your question very well indeed. Dog selection tests include: not picking dobermans and not picking anything that behaves like a doberman.
i.e- Pick dogs which are not like dobermans.

I don't know what you are referring to by the:

.... whether you are "real or not"

Or to whom.
Do you have issues with reality dude?
This may help you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzXl7P0lNgQ


As far as training of MWD's is concerned I personally don't know, I can only give information I have learned from others as in my earlier posts.
I believe there have been a glut of tv shows about it recently though so that may help your quest for this knowledge.


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

I am assuming all those Dobermenn in the film were not GSDs in Dobermenn suits,therefore they,at that time were good enough to be the mascot. The film title is ' War DOGS of the Pacific ' not 'War DOBERMANNS of the Pacific ' What I took away was that the breed was irrelevant, the blood lines were irrelevant,real or sport was irrelevant. What all those dogs did was far more than that,they were a best friend to the young men far from home,they were a watch dog, something to relate to in a world gone mad. They were Always Faithful.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

THIS is the kind of stuff that i was expecting to see when i posted this particular thread...
...anyway here's my first "dump" 
... feel free to flush if it seems dumb or naive 

i was watching it for the training involved as much as for the historical content . of course there were few sessions filmed since this wasn't a training movie, but i still got a taste of the overall system. LOTS of dogs and LOTS of handlers. like the USA WWII overall war effort in general. i went thru it again and took notes as things were mentioned. 

a few of things that stood out that i doubt would show up on a modern training field but might still be applicable in some modern situations :
- of course the biggest thing that stood out was how handlers stated they weren't dog trainers at all. didn't get into specifics, but actual techniques were often described as simply endless reps 
- 100's of guys in a line abreast, formation march w/ dogs. lots of "group" dog work 
- dogs being worked with dogs clumped in the middle and handlers circled around the bunch aka: LOTS of other handler/dog distractions
- stressed that commands always had to be given in a quiet voice ... obvious reasons for why it was done for these dogs, but hardly the case today and might indicate volume is not as important as many people think //lol//
- was stated that there was absolutely NO OB done for the first week or so ... simple walks, lots of bonding etc
- stated praise was the only reinforcer used which indicates praise ONLY might be as effective as a ball or toy if that is all the dog is allowed to learn from the get go ... this seems to go along with the importance of the "bonding philosophy" ?
- techniques used to get a dog to STFU were left up to the handler rather than techniques that the handler had to learn, copy and teach to the dog. handlers mentioned it was surprising to them how easily the dogs learned to shut up. for anyone who has been in the military; it is rare the military allows you to do something "your way", rather than "their way" //rotflmao
- seemed like their system required the dog to develop its own alert that the handler had to learn from the dog rather than trying to train an alert by the handler that the dog had to learn
- messenger dogs trained to "go miles away" to deliver messages indicates dogs had to work for more than just a solo handler
- it was mentioned how in a combat situation the handler was scared to death but the dog wasn't .... that would contradict some of the modern philosophy on which way stress travels along the leash
- obviously in those days they weren't very interested in apprehension and how to apply non lethal dog force, etc etc  the short clip of the decoy running away from the dog while offering an arm and the dog taking the leg would probably be looked at as just a funny prey bite and poor targeting by today's bitework standards. wish they had gone into that area more, but obviously apprehension was not a duty or they would have included it. i'm assuming prey drive, fight drive, etc never got discussed at all

seriously, if anyone wants to continue down the road of how and why dobes declined, please start a new thread.
- it should be obvious if the doberman club of america donated a huge bunch of dobes, the military would be getting a whole bunch of pet dobe to work with. easy for me to understand that a few guys who ended up with their own breed preference could have a major impact on the system. no data was given but obviously a LOT of dogs started out in this program


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Very good observations dude.

I found this interesting also:


> - of course the biggest thing that stood out was how handlers *stated they weren't dog trainers at all.* didn't get into specifics, but actual techniques were often described as simply endless reps


However this is probably just a case of 'how many dog trainers join the military' really.
Anyone can train a dog if guided and many people train their own dogs with no knowledge or guidance in civilian life.

On the point of volume of command, I personally don't use loud commands and if I remember quickly I have heard Ivan Balabanov doesn't either, lets face it you don't see Micheal Ellis shouting at dogs eh.
Or Bart Bellon for that matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxzTRfVgFJ0


I have asked the question of command volume of a few IPO people as in the Vids I often see people screaming at the top of their voices, mostly I get the answer of that is how it is done or along those lines. I see no need for shouted commands myself, I think it may be part of the show.


The praise reinforcer also interested me as I have just finished re-reading that Koehler method book in which he actually admonishes any other method of reward and says praise is the only method to use, at the end of the day it's all you have got at a trial, so may as well start early.

Do you view this as unusual? I would say it's an obvious.


> - was stated that there was absolutely NO OB done for the first week or so ... simple walks, lots of bonding etc



What would be useful information would be to see statistics of how many of these donated dogs washed out, also from a breed point of view what percentage washed out, or in fact if they washed any out or just worked them through it.

@Lynn, I understand what you are saying, this is why I brought the Doberman angle up, what the hell happened to the breed OR is the breed just fine but the methods of training/testing generally incompatable with dobermans. That is the last I will mention of dobermans in this thread in courtesy to Rick, I am pretty sure no one want me to start a thread on that.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i don't know why, but the "volume" thing has always been a pet peeve of mine
ever get your dog in a simple OB session and have a cd player handy you can crank up the volume and blast him with as you LOWER your voice ? amazing what damn good ears dogs have when we give em a chance or train em to pay attention to what they are hearing 

i am always impressed when i see someone handling their dog in a low voice and i am NEVER impressed hearing someone screaming their lungs out for any damn reason...a well trained dog never needs that


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I would just say agreed, but apparently that is not enough words for me to be allowed to post!


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> what the hell happened to the breed OR is the breed just fine but the methods of training/testing generally incompatable with dobermans.


:-# no comment...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lynn oliver said:


> i actually posted the suggestion to watch 'war dogs of the pacific ' in response to the comment that dobes might always have been useless. I recorded it from the tv a.couple of years ago and being a dobe owner myself for 25 years just loved it. I am glad that so many are now enjoying it.


you get the credit


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian McQuain said:


> Why run from the truth? It will set you free


Brian,

Jim posted someones opinion. Actually one opinion from someone trying to sell a book. It's like the naysayers have to bring up the criminal record of the guy that helped save those three girls held captive for 10 years. What's the point? You like GSD's better then Dobermanns? That's great, just don't shit all over a thread about Dobermanns with irrelevant opinions.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Brian,
> 
> Jim posted someones opinion. Actually one opinion from someone trying to sell a book. It's like the naysayers have to bring up the criminal record of the guy that helped save those three girls held captive for 10 years. What's the point? You like GSD's better then Dobermanns? That's great, just don't shit all over a thread about Dobermanns with irrelevant opinions.


Would you say Brian's opinion is more or less irrelevant than yours?

I am sure I could dig up at least 25 threads that you yourself have shit all over, fairly recently even probably, by interjecting your irrelevant personal opinion into them, often having little or nothing to do with the thread topics...

Why not PM Brian, and keep your irrelevant opinion about him and his post off of this thread, since it has no value to the subject matter...

I like dobermans and war dogs, have not watched the video in its entirety yet, so cannot comment further on it


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I don't think many GSD mals or dutch shepherds pass millitary working dog standards now either. The standards are high people get blown up and killed if they aren't high.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Brian,
> 
> Jim posted someones opinion. Actually one opinion from someone trying to sell a book. It's like the naysayers have to bring up the criminal record of the guy that helped save those three girls held captive for 10 years. What's the point? You like GSD's better then Dobermanns? That's great, just don't shit all over a thread about Dobermanns with irrelevant opinions.


 
Lol. I was waiting for that. I don't like GSD's over Dobes. There are only a few breeds I wouldn't waste my time on. Dobe's aren't on that list. I'm working with two Dobes right now...good dogs for the owner.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Would you say Brian's opinion is more or less irrelevant than yours?
> 
> I am sure I could dig up at least 25 threads that you yourself have shit all over, fairly recently even probably, by interjecting your irrelevant personal opinion into them, often having little or nothing to do with the thread topics...
> 
> ...


Joby

The reference was to Jim Engels post. If you can't keep up with the conversation perhaps you should stay on the sidelines?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian McQuain said:


> Lol. I was waiting for that. I don't like GSD's over Dobes. There are only a few breeds I wouldn't waste my time on. Dobe's aren't on that list. I'm working with two Dobes right now...good dogs for the owner.


See above post


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Cool vid, I've watched it a few times...really thought the Dobes suck though! :-& joking


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> See above post


 
Had to re-read it, but I got it now. Thanks.


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