# KNPV 2012 Nationals



## MARK TURNER (Nov 9, 2010)

Anybody going to the Nationals????

V Caro van Brandevoort KNPV PH1 & PH2, Kkl 1, UV has been selected for the PH2 KNPV Nationals this year

Edo van Brandevoort KNPV PH1 had max points (440) has been selected for the PH1 KNPV Nationals this year

Nice to see two GSD's at the 2012 KNPV Nationals, and I wish them both all the luck on the day...and a big well done to the Venray Club !! Great team work to get these two dogs into the Nationals.

Caro has been producing some amazing litters and competes very well against top Malinois and Duchies....well done to both Tom and Rick and the Brandevoort Kennels

Another dog to look out for in the near future is a dog named Gandalf van Brandevoort, he is in training and is the son of my bitch Bartje van Brandevoort KNPV PH1 who mated V Lubeck von der Mahler-Meister KNPV PH1 , Kkl1 ( top KNPV dogs in two generations).



Mark


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Actually, there is another one (kennel blind? ) : Assan van Casino Hof.


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## MARK TURNER (Nov 9, 2010)

Yep your right!! Great dog, Great handler........


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

MARK TURNER said:


> Yep your right!! Great dog, Great handler........


and a great club
:-D


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

And some very nice DS too :mrgreen::mrgreen:

Dick


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I have heard good things about Assan...

Go GSDs!


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I have heard good things about Assan...
> 
> Go GSDs!


I'm not really that into GSD, but I have seen him work at his PH1 trial and several other times, and that was no punishment :grin:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I really hope the number of GSD's certifying in KNPV increases. It's good for the breed.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Does that say anything about the GSD's or does it say anything about the KNPV today??????:-k

Dick


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Does that say anything about the GSD's or does it say anything about the KNPV today??????:-k
> 
> Dick


Excellent question now I would ask your opinion to that question, please. You are much closer to the source to have a valuable opinion. I bred to Lubeck over two years ago because of his performance & bloodline. I personally like the sport I would like to see more pressure placed on the dogs. I suspect the sport centers around the Mal & DS because of type etc. could be wrong :-\" been married so that's likely. Your honest perspective would be appreciated. Thank you


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> Excellent question now I would ask your opinion to that question, please. You are much closer to the source to have a valuable opinion. I bred to Lubeck over two years ago because of his performance & bloodline. I personally like the sport I would like to see more pressure placed on the dogs. I suspect the sport centers around the Mal & DS because of type etc. could be wrong :-\" been married so that's likely. Your honest perspective would be appreciated. Thank you


Ditto!


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

FYI Cordong and Verbruggen ended first with full score. Shared first position.


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Results: http://www.knpv.nl/landelijk/newsitem/562/uitslag-nationale-kampioenschappen.html


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

http://www.hondensport.com/KNPV/uitslagen 2012/Kampioenschappen2012_uitslag.htm


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## Jeff Wright (Mar 10, 2011)

I really do not know what it says being so far away from the trials( I am sure Dick has a strong opinion on this) ,but from a historical standpoint, has a "Duitse Herder" ever won the nationals,much less 2 taking first place?
Especially when you look at the percentage of DHs working vs XMH.HH etc.
I try to look at it positively and see the Dutch breeders doing a nice job in breeding stronger dogs that can compete at the higher levels.
Heukske, Brandevoort, Valkenplatz and others seem to be slowly building distinct bloodlines.
20 years ago,Heukske was a Bouvier Breeder before throwing in the towel on the ear/tail cropping ban.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Does that say anything about the GSD's or does it say anything about the KNPV today??????:-k
> 
> Dick


 
What causes judging to get soft and weaken a sport? Is it a breed of dog? Or is it money? Or is it popularity of a sport? Or is it politics?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I have heard good things about Assan...
> 
> Go GSDs!


 
He has an interesting pedigree given your tastes in dogs--Pike, Karthago, Aly, etc.

T


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

I really don't care about the GSD as a breed or their breeders to be honest. And I'm not going to comment on judges etcetera as that doesn't make sense. But I've been there both days and although there were some other combinations that I liked a lot, and some dogs with impressive attacks, these two deserved a high position in the results list, considering what they showed that day.

I've seen Cordong and his dog work several times, also at our own training venue, and although I'm not a fan of GSDs, if I had to have one, I wouldn't mind having that one. He's very well trained and makes a great combination with his handler.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> He has an interesting pedigree given your tastes in dogs--Pike, Karthago, Aly, etc.
> 
> T


 
I considered a pup out of Assan recently, but the female didnt take.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Does that say anything about the GSD's or does it say anything about the KNPV today??????:-k
> 
> Dick


 
I wouldnt know how to answer your question about KNPV, for obvious reasons. But I can tell you that my experience with dogs out of KNPV background (GSD's I have). They are different from the dogs out of schH background I have seen, more serious, drive isnt going up and down, handle more pressure from training, no need to be building the dog up after a negative experience, less drive leaking... My experience has been that overall they are environmentally sounder. Not saying they are better than schH dogs...just giving my experience.

All in all, I am glad to see people taking the time to do a GSD selection with KNPV in mind. 

Hopefully, KNPV will maintain itself as a tough certification and we will find more serious GSD breeders focusing, obtaining their certificates and helping to produce a strong dog. 


Regards


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Jeff Wright said:


> I try to look at it positively and see the Dutch breeders doing a nice job in breeding stronger dogs that can compete at the higher levels.
> Heukske, Brandevoort, Valkenplatz and others seem to be slowly building distinct bloodlines.
> 20 years ago,Heukske was a Bouvier Breeder before throwing in the towel on the ear/tail cropping ban.


couldn't agree more, Jeff!


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I wouldnt know how to answer your question about KNPV, for obvious reasons. But I can tell you that my experience with dogs out of KNPV background (GSD's I have). They are different from the dogs out of schH background I have seen, more serious, drive isnt going up and down, handle more pressure from training, no need to be building the dog up after a negative experience, less drive leaking... My experience has been that overall they are environmentally sounder. Not saying they are better than schH dogs...just giving my experience.


The GSDs competing at this years championship are either 100% from SCH background or with just one or a few dogs in the pedigree doing KNPV. So I don´t know if we can say KNPV GSDs are so different from SCH-lines, because the KNPV influence is very little at least in these dogs.

But is it really so sensational a decent GSD could match a malinois or mixed KNPV-dog, happens in other sports so why not KNPV?


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

PH1 - all vids except the winners GSDs. Later maybe? http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2231/KNPV-Meisterschaft-2012-PH1

PH2 - http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2232/KNPV-Meisterschaft-2012-PH2

OBJ - http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2234/KNPV-Meisterschaft-2012-OBJ


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Did they put it on youtube yet? Or are they not allowed to do that?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Ben Thompson said:


> Did they put it on youtube yet? Or are they not allowed to do that?


I'd like to know that also...


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Erik Berg said:


> The GSDs competing at this years championship are either 100% from SCH background or with just one or a few dogs in the pedigree doing KNPV. So I don´t know if we can say KNPV GSDs are so different from SCH-lines, because the KNPV influence is very little at least in these dogs.
> 
> But is it really so sensational a decent GSD could match a malinois or mixed KNPV-dog, happens in other sports so why not KNPV?


I agree with this, but I ask how often can you find that decent GSD?


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Did they put it on youtube yet? Or are they not allowed to do that?


Saw some vids, but not GSDs.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I agree with this, but I ask how often can you find that decent GSD?


Well, I don´t know so much about KNPV, but I can´t see why those GSD that apparantly did very well are so different from the better dogs you find in BSP and similar, or from other sports. Or does it take some kind of "super GSD" to get high points in KNPV?


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Most people in knpv do not care about a dog with papers. why should they spent 1000 euros or more for a gsd?? they can buy a knpv mali mix for 150-300 euros. after there "koerung" (trial) they get sold to brockers for 2500-4000 euros. may be a few euros more for real great dogs.

only a handful people spend money for a gsd.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes, but a few of those handfull dogs obviously did really well judging from the placements. Still I doubt these GSDs have super genetics not found in BSP or various other championships.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Most people in knpv do not care about a dog with papers. why should they spent 1000 euros or more for a gsd?? they can buy a knpv mali mix for 150-300 euros. after there "koerung" (trial) they get sold to brockers for 2500-4000 euros. may be a few euros more for real great dogs.
> 
> only a handful people spend money for a gsd.


 
And why dont you or other highly reputable breeders place (free of charge) one of your pups with a KNPV trainer to get it certified? 
I would...

Last time I heard those exact same words were from a BIG GSD breeder, and he ended sending me a piece of crap low drive dog that wouldnt compete in agility, much less KNPV. 

Price is no excuse if you're producing high quality dogs. If you have them, sacrifice some of your profit and donate a couple of good ones to prove you can get it done.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maybe there is just no need to prove anything or make any excuses. KNPV is not the focus of those breeders, just my opinion...

I think it would fall upon a KNPV competitor to seek out and choose a dog from a breeder like Stefan, than for him to seek out a competitor and supply a dog for him.

How many KNPV competitors are looking to get dogs from Stefan, and other breeders like him?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I dont know. All I hear is the price reason about not seeing more GSDs in KNPV.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I dont know. All I hear is the price reason about not seeing more GSDs in KNPV.


How many KNPV people import puppies to train? 

How many top handlers WANT to handle GSD in KNPV, and make the effort to acquire them from lines outside of their own country, or from other sports?

I think those are huge factors as well...


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Those are valid points, but there are lots of GSDs in Holland... Perhaps it wouldnt be necessary to import. I've even seen Leon von der Staatsmacht advertised as a stud dog in Holland. 

IMO, it would be in a kennel's best interest to have dogs certified in another program, such as KNPV. 

People accept the "KNPV people arent willing to pay 1000 Euros for a GSD" excuse. Perhaps because they know a pup is a crapshoot and their program is demanding which leads to washing out many dogs. In this situation, paying 1000 euros for a washout, is indeed a lot of money. 

So, if a breeder produces high quality dogs that are able to certify in a different program why not donate one to a good handler? 

Its just my opinion.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

why is it important for a breeder that a dog is titeld in knpv?? most time after that they get sold and end up in guarding jobs around the world. you never hear anything about this dog than. leon,terror and other of my dogs have been used by breeders who do knpv. does it help the male to get more popular or is it onlyu one stud more. around the world knpv does not have a high status. i lived close to a few knpv clubs and have visit them time by time, training is like 20 years ago. take it or die


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Stefan Schaub said:


> take it or die


 Best catch phrase ever written on WDF


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Best catch phrase ever written on WDF


Great catch phrase but that attitude makes for some pretty tough dogs.....


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Chris Keister said:


> Great catch phrase but that attitude makes for some pretty tough dogs.....


My point exactly.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> And why dont you or other highly reputable breeders place (free of charge) one of your pups with a KNPV trainer to get it certified?
> I would...
> 
> Last time I heard those exact same words were from a BIG GSD breeder, and he ended sending me a piece of crap low drive dog that wouldnt compete in agility, much less KNPV.
> ...


i know a better way. take a trip to some dutch clubs and watch some training and than decide if you want give your dog in these hands. i must proof nothing,did it in the last ten years many times.

ask for the reality what is going on there and how many dogs end up in a hole or in a pet shelter because someone gave him a kick to much. do you not wonder that you find all times the same names on the knpv nationals.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Im not here to discuss politics. Just gave you my point of view. 

From your words KNPV seems to weed out dogs who can't make it, which reinforces my views on being a good selection tool. 


Regards


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I like this thread! Very amusing!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> i know a better way. take a trip to some dutch clubs and watch some training and than decide if you want give your dog in these hands. i must proof nothing,did it in the last ten years many times.
> 
> ask for the reality what is going on there and how many dogs end up in a hole or in a pet shelter because someone gave him a kick to much. do you not wonder that you find all times the same names on the knpv nationals.


And what would you say is really going on? I'm curious now. You seem to have a world of wisdom on KNPV training hidden behind your post, share it with us. As for always finding the same names at the nationals? What does that say? I'm not sure what you are trying to point out here.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> And what would you say is really going on? I'm curious now. You seem to have a world of wisdom on KNPV training hidden behind your post, share it with us. As for always finding the same names at the nationals? What does that say? I'm not sure what you are trying to point out here.


 
Yes, I am curious about that also... Afterall, schH is so much different, lolololol  The only difference being, not so many dogs get washed out in schH. I could be wrong, though. 

At first, it seemed KNPV training was too demanding and many dogs got washed out (GOOD!).

But he could also be saying that those dogs which were washed out and ended up as a pet, probably were of working caliber, if only they hadnt been trained by the "mean" KNPV club trainers! 

Im done.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I agree with this, but I ask how often can you find that decent GSD?


This line right here! Says it all! From a KNPV viewpoint, or lets keep this safe and say from my personal viewpoint...how many decent GSD's are out there to train and endure the KNPV style training? Note the word DECENT, am not even going out and saying GOOD since I sincerely doubt there are any real GOOD GSD's. 

Do I have a dislike against the GSD....oh boy do I ever! The breed has been ruined over so many years to turn into some sort of show piece that lacks any sort of persistance and character.

There is 1 breeder I would consider for a GSD and thats Gardefence but that is only because he is breeding back towards what we used to have in a GSD. 

Instead of looking at the whole WHY no GSD you should all take a different perspective and ask WHY Mali and Dutchie? 

Simple answer for me is. If they GSD had been what it was bred to be in the beginning, people would have never started to look for alternatives!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Yes, I am curious about that also... Afterall, schH is so much different, lolololol  The only difference being, not so many dogs get washed out in schH. I could be wrong, though.
> 
> At first, it seemed KNPV training was too demanding and many dogs got washed out (GOOD!).
> 
> ...


We are all meanies in KNPV, everyone knows that! LOL


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> And what would you say is really going on? I'm curious now. You seem to have a world of wisdom on KNPV training hidden behind your post, share it with us. As for always finding the same names at the nationals? What does that say? I'm not sure what you are trying to point out here.


that the good people get the right dog and the rest is running behind. do you want tell me that in the most knpv club the training is up to date.

i can tell you what i like on knpv. people look for the hard striking dog and breed to a good female,no one cares about size, clor or had shape or what ever. 

but also in knpv are enough bad dogs even like in schutzhund and other sports. we have get most time our dogs from maas, out of 20 there was only one good enough,all dogs where titled.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> ...since I sincerely doubt there are any real GOOD GSD's.


 
You should get out more.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Brian McQuain said:


> You should get out more.


I've been getting out for 25 years where KNPV is concerned and trust me when I tell you that all I have witnessed in the GSD is a steady decline in the whole breed. 

BTW, we are in different areas of sports, your qualifications for a dog will probably be quite different from mine. You might want to keep that in mind.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I've been getting out for 25 years where KNPV is concerned and trust me when I tell you that all I have witnessed in the GSD is a steady decline in the whole breed.
> 
> BTW, we are in different areas of sports, your qualifications for a dog will probably be quite different from mine. You might want to keep that in mind.


 
Two seemed to do ok at the KNPV Nationals, your sport. So you still sincerely doubt there are any real good GSD's?


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

If there are no good GSDs I don´t know what to make of the fact that two GSDs took first place in KNPV-championship, either this means also KNPV is not so much different from other programs, meaning high scores is not always best dogs. Or it must mean the more traditional KNPV-dogs are not always superior. 

I don´t know, but saying "harsh training" weeds out weaker dogs is questionable. How many real strong dogs will take this without putting on a fight and cause further problems in the training? Dogs that are less tough and accept a "mean" trainer I wouldn´t call so tough, or? It more sounds like "soft" and smarter training is needed to train a real powerfull dog, the more mediocre ones are more likely to accept wahtever the trainer does. So maybe stefan meant many strong dogs are wasted because of this, and not the other way around

Lastly, I guess some good KNPV-dog may not always be the best dual purpose dog for example, where good tracking and searching is a must, not only extreme bitework.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Brian McQuain said:


> Two seemed to do ok at the KNPV Nationals, your sport. So you still sincerely doubt there are any real good GSD's?


Yup I still doubt...aint I a sad one? Looking good and being good...theres a difference...there's the dog that will do the job and there's the dog that will do the work! Just because they make the nationals doesn't mean they are great WORKING dogs! Not every trained dog out there has it in him to be a street working dog.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Yup I still doubt...aint I a sad one? Looking good and being good...theres a difference...there's the dog that will do the job and there's the dog that will do the work! Just because they make the nationals doesn't mean they are great WORKING dogs! Not every trained dog out there has it in him to be a street working dog.


Yeah, youre right. Ive never seen a real WORKING GSD before. Right up there with unicorns, right?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Do I have a dislike against the GSD....oh boy do I ever! The breed has been ruined over so many years to turn into some sort of show piece that lacks any sort of persistance and character.
> 
> There is 1 breeder I would consider for a GSD and thats Gardefence but that is only because he is breeding back towards what we used to have in a GSD.
> 
> !


http://www.k9gardefense.com/

Is this the Gardefence you are referring too?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> http://www.k9gardefense.com/
> 
> Is this the Gardefence you are referring too?


Yup, thats the one.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Brian McQuain said:


> Yeah, youre right. Ive never seen a real WORKING GSD before. Right up there with unicorns, right?


Don't get your panties in a twist Brian!

I am sure there is an exception for every rule. We could go in circles on this forever. 

Perception of what is good. That is what this all comes down to. What I think is a good dog, you might disagree with, and vice versa. You are clearly a big fan of the GSD. I am absolutely not a fan of the GSD at all.

I have seen both the GSD's in Eindhoven. Did nice work. Was pleasantly surpised by the work they showed. I am not however, going to roll over in joy and say the GSD is back where it should be! 2 winning GSD's does not make up for an entire breed that has ****ed up with showline breeding.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Don't get your panties in a twist Brian!
> 
> I am sure there is an exception for every rule. We could go in circles on this forever.
> 
> ...


 
Im not exactly becoming emotional over this. I like GSD's as much as I like Mals and Dutchies. 
Opinions I dont have any problems with. You dont like the breed. Cool. But because you dont like them, doesnt make the breed incapable.


So, what's a good dog to you?

Were the GSD's in Eindhoven getting the job done or not? Sounds like they did to me. Are there any GSD's worldwide that are working for real, and doing a good job at it? Are there any other GSD's competing in KNPV and doing well? According to you, no. Thats all Im saying here. Youre the one who made the statement that there are no good GSD's, working or sport. Im just pointing out the obvious fact that your statement is opinion, and not fact.

I could say that there are no good Malinois out there, because they cant keep up with the Border Collie in herding, but we all know thats crap. I actually do hear that statement EVERY trial when a Mal shows up, all from BC folks. Along with something like "this is going to be ugly". Sad, really


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> If there are no good GSDs I don´t know what to make of the fact that two GSDs took first place in KNPV-championship, either this means also KNPV is not so much different from other programs, meaning high scores is not always best dogs. Or it must mean the more traditional KNPV-dogs are not always superior.
> 
> I don´t know, but saying "harsh training" weeds out weaker dogs is questionable. How many real strong dogs will take this without putting on a fight and cause further problems in the training? Dogs that are less tough and accept a "mean" trainer I wouldn´t call so tough, or? It more sounds like "soft" and smarter training is needed to train a real powerfull dog, the more mediocre ones are more likely to accept wahtever the trainer does. So maybe stefan meant many strong dogs are wasted because of this, and not the other way around
> 
> ...


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

It is interesting to see "awareness" of KNPV becoming more of a sport... If the awareness is there, then, something can be done in order to prevent such downfall and keep the testing ability of KNPV alive.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Brian McQuain said:


> Im not exactly becoming emotional over this. I like GSD's as much as I like Mals and Dutchies.
> Opinions I dont have any problems with. You dont like the breed. Cool. But because you dont like them, doesnt make the breed incapable.
> 
> 
> ...


That was a good post and a good dog is a good dog no matter the breed,yes there might be a lot more dutchies suited for knpv but still are a lot of good gsd available to suit a lot of purposes.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> It is interesting to see "awareness" of KNPV becoming more of a sport... If the awareness is there, then, something can be done in order to prevent such downfall and keep the testing ability of KNPV alive.


No...i'm afraid not. If i see the plans/ visions of knpv hq...knpv will be a sportsprogram as ipo within 10 yrs ](*,)


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> No...i'm afraid not. If i see the plans/ visions of knpv hq...knpv will be a sportsprogram as ipo within 10 yrs ](*,)


What would you like to see the KNPV doing differently?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> What would you like to see the KNPV doing differently?


What it is meant to be. A testingprogram for dogs trained for duty's with the policeforce and army...

D.


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## Bill Cusson (Apr 19, 2011)

Bonjour from Canada Mark!

Just a reminder that Lübeck von der Mahler Meister is available for studding to approved females!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> No...i'm afraid not. If i see the plans/ visions of knpv hq...knpv will be a sportsprogram as ipo within 10 yrs ](*,)


Any time points are involved in any competition it's just a matter of time before it becomes a "sport". After that it's how can I get the best score. That's more about the training then the dog.....unfortunately.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> What it is meant to be. A testingprogram for dogs trained for duty's with the policeforce and army...
> 
> D.


What changes would you make to the current program to make it more to your liking?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Alice, why do you consider Guardefense dogs better than other GSDs if they go back to the same bloodlines?


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> What changes would you make to the current program to make it more to your liking?


I would undo some changes that are made. Especialy in the way the decoys are instructed to test the dogs.](*,)
You can see that decoys who where realy capable of testing dogs, are "selected" out of "the system" and are beeïng made almost impossible to do the work, so a lot of them quitted their decoywork.

Left over are a lot of them, "catching" dogs with their arms "wide open" for example.

In 30 years I have never met somebody "in the streets" that wanted to "catch" my psd with "open arms" so he could get a good bite....:mrgreen:

Politics behind this is, that KNPV was losing members and now they want to make the program more reachable(? if that the right expresion? ) for a broader ordiance...

D.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

That's hilarious no criminals with open arms, they aren't so tough!!! Great point & should be applied in all working k9s. No jokes, only real deal, thanks Dick....



Dick van Leeuwen said:


> I would undo some changes that are made. Especialy in the way the decoys are instructed to test the dogs.](*,)
> You can see that decoys who where realy capable of testing dogs, are "selected" out of "the system" and are beeïng made almost impossible to do the work, so a lot of them quitted their decoywork.
> 
> Left over are a lot of them, "catching" dogs with their arms "wide open" for example.
> ...


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> Alice, why do you consider Guardefense dogs better than other GSDs if they go back to the same bloodlines?


 
And which same bloodlines are those?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> And which same bloodlines are those?


The bloodlines are

Pike von der Schafbachmühle, Ernst vom Weinbergblick , Fado von Karthago, Tom v Leefdaalhof...


Can you name one Gardefense litter that does not have SchH dogs in the first 3 generations?


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Don't know much about GSD lines, but I did see Assan (from Cordong) several times and heard him say (if I remember correctly) he trained his father too in KNPV, so not only SchH lines behind the dog. 

And the owner of the Gardefense kennel achieved a certificate with honors last weekend with 428 points. Didn't see him work so cannot say anything about that. 

Did see Assan on a training day & from what I saw (was entering too) I liked his work.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Don't know much about GSD lines, but I did see Assan (from Cordong) several times and heard him say (if I remember correctly) he trained his father too in KNPV, so not only SchH lines behind the dog.


Just because a dogs father was trained in KNPV does not make it a KNPV line.


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Just because a dogs father was trained in KNPV does not make it a KNPV line.


You'll have to start somewhere;-)


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I get that, but since it was said that Gardefense breeds back to the old time GSDs...but the pedigree is hardly different than my dog's.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haven't seen any newer pedigrees but the Gardenfense dog that I'm thinking of was maybe Pike bred to Bora, KNPV and her pedigree was certainly littered with KNPV. I'm recalling this off the top of my head. It might be Gideon Gardenfense. I think since then they have been linebreeding and adding Pike through sons/grandsons where they can.

T


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> The bloodlines are
> 
> Pike von der Schafbachmühle, Ernst vom Weinbergblick , Fado von Karthago, Tom v Leefdaalhof...
> 
> ...


 
I have a gardefense dog... Thats why I was asking. 

It doesnt have to do with the titles in such and such generation...it has to do with getting the right dogs to complete a demanding training program. Even though the dogs certainly have schH blood in recent generations, you find dogs which dont need a whip to get in drive, that have natural guarding and endure a proper stick hit... 

I know there are still excellent schH dogs. I would love to see those dogs and their offspring being brought into a more demanding program such as KNPV and hopefully restore a healthy population of hard tested GSD's. 


JMO


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I have a gardefense dog... Thats why I was asking.
> 
> It doesnt have to do with the titles in such and such generation...it has to do with getting the right dogs to complete a demanding training program. Even though the dogs certainly have schH blood in recent generations, you find dogs which dont need a whip to get in drive, that have natural guarding and endure a proper stick hit...
> 
> ...


Thats a good post, Tiago.
I started as a young boy at my fathers GSD sch.h. club in Amsterdam in the early 70's. Nobody needed whips then to get a dog (gsd) into drive. And I'm sure most of these dogs where also able to do KNPV AND could stand to compare easy with Mal's and Bouviers. More GSD's where actually in KNPV those days then they are nowadays.
So I can understand people are trying to breed back to those bloodlines. I myself had a Karthago gsd then and later a Greif v Lahntal grandson.
I would realy like to see the GSD back into KNPV, but then because they are gettin better ( good again ) and not because the KNPV-program devaluates...:roll:

D.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dick van Leeuwen said:


> Thats a good post, Tiago.
> I started as a young boy at my fathers GSD sch.h. club in Amsterdam in the early 70's. Nobody needed whips then to get a dog (gsd) into drive. And I'm sure most of these dogs where also able to do KNPV AND could stand to compare easy with Mal's and Bouviers. More GSD's where actually in KNPV those days then they are nowadays.
> So I can understand people are trying to breed back to those bloodlines. I myself had a Karthago gsd then and later a Greif v Lahntal grandson.
> I would realy like to see the GSD back into KNPV, but then because they are gettin better ( good again ) and not because the KNPV-program devaluates...:roll:
> ...


 
It's the whips and table training, these days... as a good friend of mine says:

"Hard to see the dogs natural drives... they have all been conditioned to whips and table training and decoys that help the dogs drives". 

Of course I'm only quoting, but have seen my fair share of that.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Did see Assan on a training day & from what I saw (was entering too) I liked his work.


Probably at our club, if you didn't coincide on other occasions. Pics are still online on Wilma's site, see links on this page: http://www.wilmaendavefotografie.nl...riend-bij-dag-en-nacht-nistelrode-28-04-2012/


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> It's the whips and table training, these days... as a good friend of mine says:
> 
> "Hard to see the dogs natural drives... they have all been conditioned to whips and table training and decoys that help the dogs drives".
> 
> Of course I'm only quoting, but have seen my fair share of that.


Don't see whips & tables being used at KNPV clubs, or I'm missing a lot, so in KNPV they are not conditioned like that...

& yes Ellen at your club


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Don't see whips & tables being used at KNPV clubs, or I'm missing a lot, so in KNPV they are not conditioned like that...
> 
> & yes Ellen at your club


I did not say this occured in KNPV clubs... I was referring to schH.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Tiago, German Shepherds haven't been able to beat Malinois in IPO in years. But they've been winning KNPV nationals (from the same bloodlines, there are still top IPO dogs within the first three generations of every "KNPV line" GSD).

Explain.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> Tiago, German Shepherds haven't been able to beat Malinois in IPO in years. But they've been winning KNPV nationals (from the same bloodlines, there are still top IPO dogs within the first three generations of every "KNPV line" GSD).
> 
> Explain.


 
I'm not quite sure what you want me to explain... Could you please elaborate? 

Are you trying to say that because GSD's can't beat malinois in IPO, but have been able to win the KNPV nationals that perhaps IPO is a harder test than KNPV? 

Just wondering, lol...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Are you trying to say that because GSD's can't beat malinois in IPO, but have been able to win the KNPV nationals that perhaps IPO is a harder test than KNPV?
> 
> Just wondering, lol...


It sounds like she's not asking you a question. She is asking you to explain it.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> It sounds like she's not asking you a question. She is asking you to explain it.


As I said, I dont know what she wants me to explain for I see no correlation... 

Help me out, so, same GSD bloodlines cant win over malinois in IPO but won the KNPV nationals could mean:

1- IPO malinois are better than KNPV malinois;

2- The individual GSDs winning the KNPV nationals are better than their relatives competing in IPO;

3- IPO is harder for a GSD than KNPV (lol);

4- None of the above.


On the other hand, you could be looking at GSDs which possess the proper traits to compete in a demanding program such as KNPV... but, what do I know!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I could be wrong but i think Katie was asking why you think the knpv lineage you spoke about is really anything but schH lines and she was asking for an explanantion why the "knpv" GSD you mentioned are any different to others from the same schH lines.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris and Brad are right.

If KNPV is harder than IPO, why are the GSDs winning it? If IPO Malinois are not as good as KNPV Malinois - why is that? It doesn't make sense to me that the hardest sport or "test" has the weaker of the dogs winning it. I'm trying to tie everything together.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Has anyone considered the trainers that are winning? Seems they might have something to do with it and not just the breed. Just a though! :wink:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Has anyone considered the trainers that are winning? Seems they might have something to do with it and not just the breed. Just a though! :wink:


Very good point, Bob. 

Other point. Here in Holland, about the last two-three years,is winning IPO contests 50-50 between the Mal and GSD. Last year there even where some FCI DS that won contests.

D.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The training? I thought KNPV was for "real" dogs and the genetics needed for the sport were special and not found in other lines of dogs. Now I'm reading that you can win the KNPV championship with good training. I'm so confused?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> The training? I thought KNPV was for "real" dogs and the genetics needed for the sport were special and not found in other lines of dogs. Now I'm reading that you can win the KNPV championship with good training. I'm so confused?


 
Actually, you're reading and trying to twist words to suit your point of view... 

Real dogs can be found in any sport and it's not about special genetics...it's about the right individual within a certain bloodline (which may be competing in other sport venues) to get a certification in the program. 

Then, if you're focusing on the traits that certain individual dog possesses and aim towards building prepotency...yes, you may have dogs with the same bloodlines, expressing different traits.

This is what population genetics is all about.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I assume the sport is changing, just like many people think the sport of SCH/IPO has changed.

I also think that it is a unique type of sport, that was/is used to test dogs for other end destinations of work, that the sport is not the end of the line for most of the dogs involved in it, it is the beginning of the dogs working career, in many cases.

I am an idiot mostly on dog sports and may be way off base...but I always assumed that it was the amount of stuff involved, the timeline, and the often harsher and more stress related training techniques and programs that some of the KNPV dogs go through, that was a bigger factor when looking at some of the qualities of some of the dogs, as opposed to the actual trial performance and placement.

I thought the sport of KNPV was just a stepping stone for most of the dogs..What % of titled dogs actually go on to pursue a serious sport career, by serious "sport minded" trainers? 

I would think it is just like IPO in many respects as well, that many titled dogs will not be desirable for certain other types of work, by some people, and that not all champions will be viewed as the best dogs when compared to other dogs by some people...I also thought that it often happens that some of the best dogs for other jobs, the true breeding purpose of some people, may not be the best dogs in regards to the sport trial performance. 

could be totally wrong, just typing here...


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> If KNPV is harder than IPO, why are the GSDs winning it? If IPO Malinois are not as good as KNPV Malinois - why is that? It doesn't make sense to me that the hardest sport or "test" has the weaker of the dogs winning it. I'm trying to tie everything together.


I'm right there with you, Katie! lol


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Has anyone considered the trainers that are winning? Seems they might have something to do with it and not just the breed. Just a though! :wink:


Finally something that makes sense :wink:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Has anyone considered why those trainers picked GSD's less and less over the years? That seems to have something to do with it as well...another thing to think about.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ellen Piepers said:


> Finally something that makes sense :wink:


Amen to that!


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