# Puking a lot..



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

So got the pup on a mixed diet of kibble (purina pro plan) and raw plus supplements sometimes. Great appetite, tons of energy. Usually kibble in the morning and raw at night. She would puke yellow bile sometimes overnight and sometimes if I was a bit late to feed the morning meal. I dewormed her a couple days ago. 
My older dogs I have always just fed once. A big meal in the evening of Raw/kibble or just raw at night. Never really had an issue. 

Now I know pups need to eat 2-3 times a day but I want to go to the one meal system with her as with my other dogs when she ages. Do some dogs NOT grow out of this? She does seem to puke more often them other pups I have had. Never food just the yellow bile stuff. Also, seems to be eating grass off/on.
It would be a PITA if she needed a different schedule then the other dogs when she is older.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm sure Connie will chime in with the specifics, but you DO NOT mix raw and kibble for a lot of dogs. I've never fed any puppy more than twice a day and by they are the age of your puppy, its once. There's tons of posts on raw + kibble if you search.

T


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

You don't indicate the age of your pup. How old is she? Also it appears that she may be reacting to the raw diet. I know that all raw diets are not created equal so wonder if there is something in there that isn't sitting well with her system. What happens if you move her to a full kibble diet? 
At this point I would not be worrying about what her diet schedule will be as an adult. I would be dealing with the here and now.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

She is about 5.5 months. She pukes about 3 times a week. I have fed kibble/raw for a while and had no issues till now. If the food was the issue would she not vomit the food? Her stools are solid


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

I always have to laugh when I still hear people say you can't feed raw and kibble in the same meal. This is so common, that I don't know why it keeps getting repeated other than as an excuse by hard core raw feeders not to feed kibble.

Anyway, some dogs just get pukey on an empty stomach. Most grow out of it, but some don't. You can try a late meal or snack and see if that helps.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Major does this from time to time but not weekly. And i agree with Elaine. Major gets mostly raw, but if im running low on raw food, i'll mix in some 4 Health kibble with what raw i have and once i run out, he'll eat straight kibble until i get another 40lbs of raw. Poops solid as a dollar. The damn things bounce they're so hard. He loves kibble and raw equally and they sit well on his stomach.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I don't think it has anything to do with diet, personally. I think her tummy needs more food in it. Try giving her a handful of treats after dinner but before bed and see if that holds her over. This is pretty common in smaller dogs and puppies. Empty tummies make them nauseous.

Haha, just read Elaine's post. So, in other words, I agree!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Haz Othman said:


> She would puke yellow bile sometimes overnight and sometimes if I was a bit late to feed the morning meal.



Yellow bile vomit with the timing you describe is probably 'empty stomach vomiting' (sometimes just referred to as bile vomiting, in fact).

It's not at all uncommon. It's usually in the wee morning hours.

Before addressing other possibilities, I'd give the dog a protein snack before bed (just reserve part of the regular food).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> .... I think her tummy needs more food in it. Try giving her a handful of treats after dinner but before bed and see if that holds her over. This is pretty common in smaller dogs and puppies. Empty tummies make them nauseous.



Exactly. Make it a protein-type food.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think others didn't think it was a big deal either until there were vet bills. It depends on the dog and how the digestive track works. I've never seen it but reading posts here, have mentally filed it away. Here, Haz is separating them which is probably the best way to do it if I remember correctly. My usual concern is that the cal/phos ratio remains correct for growing puppies. I've had one dog who couldn't tolerate raw at all unless I flashed it, a couple who didn't care for raw poultry and others that were just fine. My friend who was adding raw, eggs, and or yogurt to a already loaded puppy kibble had puppies that had splayed feet, bowed front legs and weak pasterns. The splayed feet and weakened pasterns are something that is becoming pretty common when I look at raw fed puppies. GSD puppies seem to do best with lower protein diets--just my experience. First sign of it being too high will be the pasterns. 

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think others didn't think it was a big deal either until there were vet bills. .... Here, Haz is separating them which is probably the best way to do it if I remember correctly.



I agree with both parts.

It keeps coming up (mixing kibble and raw) because occasionally it does cause a problem, and the problem can be bad indeed. It has nothing to do with "an excuse by hard core raw feeders not to feed kibble." I do get it why people shrug it off .... it's relatively uncommon, and most owners haven't seen it happen (or even if they did, they may not have realized the trigger).

I've detailed the mechanism here several times. I'll find a link.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It keeps coming up (mixing kibble and raw) because occasionally it does cause a problem, and the problem can be bad indeed. It has nothing to do with "an excuse by hard core raw feeders not to feed kibble." I do get it why people shrug it off .... it's relatively uncommon, and most owners haven't seen it happen (or even if they did, they may not have realized the trigger).


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/bravo-food-10303/index2.html#post110405

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...-side-trying-raw-21437/index8.html#post294108


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## Brian Smith (May 26, 2013)

I had the exact same issue with my PSD. He would vomit the yellow stuff 3-4 times a week. When I first got him, he would almost inhale his food and then as time progressed, he would only eat one time a day instead of two. I did some research and found that the food I was feeding him might be the cause. I was feeding him Pro Plan and found that it is loaded with fillers and is overall a poor choice of food. I switched him to a higher quality food that was actually cheaper and haven't had any issues since. He immediately began eating like his old self and ate both meals. After a month or so I relayed the information back to other members of my department and discovered that over half of the dogs were having the same problems. Apparently they never thought anything of it since it was so common. We have now all switched with no reported issues or relapses. 
I'm not trying to bash Pro Plan, I just saw that's what you were using and wanted to relay my personal experience. I know plenty of people that feed it with no problems. I would also like to add that I noticed my dog getting lethargic during the period he stopped eating so well. For me, that was the wake up I needed because he was always 100 mph and reading to go. Others in my unit said that they also had a noticeable difference in the dog after the switch. 
Hope this helps.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Smith said:


> ... I'm not trying to bash Pro Plan, I just saw that's what you were using and wanted to relay my personal experience. ...


Well, I'll go ahead and bash it. It's not the worst of the Purina dog foods, but that's a very low bar indeed. JMO!

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f25/purina-propaganda-32321/#post483369


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Brian Smith said:


> I had the exact same issue with my PSD. He would vomit the yellow stuff 3-4 times a week. When I first got him, he would almost inhale his food and then as time progressed, he would only eat one time a day instead of two. I did some research and found that the food I was feeding him might be the cause. I was feeding him Pro Plan and found that it is loaded with fillers and is overall a poor choice of food. I switched him to a higher quality food that was actually cheaper and haven't had any issues since. He immediately began eating like his old self and ate both meals. After a month or so I relayed the information back to other members of my department and discovered that over half of the dogs were having the same problems. Apparently they never thought anything of it since it was so common. We have now all switched with no reported issues or relapses.
> I'm not trying to bash Pro Plan, I just saw that's what you were using and wanted to relay my personal experience. I know plenty of people that feed it with no problems. I would also like to add that I noticed my dog getting lethargic during the period he stopped eating so well. For me, that was the wake up I needed because he was always 100 mph and reading to go. Others in my unit said that they also had a noticeable difference in the dog after the switch.
> Hope this helps.


Brian thats very interesting. Im thinking of switching proplan for something else want to stay in the same price point. Ill be feeding with raw. Any suggestions.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Guys I never heard about mixing being an issue. I usually feed in the morning and at night before i sleep. I usually dont mix them in one meal but have done so on a few occassions. Also I dont feed puppy food its regular adult chicken and rice. That in the morn and raw at night unless i dont have any.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm a Pro Plan basher too

just because a lot of dogs can eat crap and be fine doesn't justify feeding them crap
...especially if they are not feral 

if good food doesn't fit your budget, adjust your debt ceiling


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Brian Smith said:


> I'm not trying to bash Pro Plan, I just saw that's what you were using and wanted to relay my personal experience. I know plenty of people that feed it with no problems. I would also like to add that I noticed my dog getting lethargic during the period he stopped eating so well. For me, that was the wake up I needed because he was always 100 mph and reading to go. Others in my unit said that they also had a noticeable difference in the dog after the switch.
> Hope this helps.


Heck, bash away. I tried proplan with my three. They were hungry all the time and continued to lose weight even after I tripled the amounts I was feeding. The bags didn't have any caloric values so I contacted the company to find out what kind of calories the dogs should have been getting. I got the song and dance before the company finally came up with the data 3 months after continuing to bug them about it. I talked about this with others and they were having the same problem. Switched over to another brand (Diamond) and never had another problem.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Its about 55, some of the other brands are about 65-75. Its not a question of not fitting a budget just dont see why I cant get an average brand for the same amount. I feed raw too and spend more on that. Just want a decent brand that gets the job done. 



rick smith said:


> i'm a Pro Plan basher too
> 
> just because a lot of dogs can eat crap and be fine doesn't justify feeding them crap
> ...especially if they are not feral
> ...


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Haz Othman said:


> Its about 55, some of the other brands are about 65-75. Its not a question of not fitting a budget just dont see why I cant get an average brand for the same amount. I feed raw too and spend more on that. Just want a decent brand that gets the job done.


Look for Pulsar; it's kibble made in Saskatchewan from fish and legumes. It is good quality and affordable. When I have to feed kibble, I alternate between this and Acana Pacifica, but it is a lot cheaper than Acana. 
www.horizonpetfood.com/pulsar

My dogs are eating well (raw) these days due to hunting season; it's a very good year for game, lots of forage up high in the mountains. 

If my dog gets a queasy stomach, I also feed cooked pumpkin and/or kefir/yogurt that is loaded with probiotics.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Haz....
learn dogfood language
read the fine print and ignore the colored stuff
compare it
shoparound and look for bargains
...not too hard

and imo, if you feed any raw you should know how to compare the basic nutritional value of a raw chicken quarter to a few cups of kibble


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I agree with both parts.
> 
> It keeps coming up (mixing kibble and raw) because occasionally it does cause a problem, and the problem can be bad indeed. It has nothing to do with "an excuse by hard core raw feeders not to feed kibble." I do get it why people shrug it off .... it's relatively uncommon, and most owners haven't seen it happen (or even if they did, they may not have realized the trigger).
> 
> I've detailed the mechanism here several times. I'll find a link.


Your thinking is seriously flawed. The kibble digests slower than raw and can cause a problem is absurd. Bone takes longer than meat which is longer than carbs, while any liquid is quite fast. Are you separating all your food components because they digest differently? No. We are back to raw feeders making excuses to bash kibble and disguising it in bad science.

Some dogs have problems eating chicken, beef, and just about every other food product, but it's purely an individual dog thing and not something that should go out as an blanket warning not to feed. You need to feed your dog as an individual and ignore all the silly myths out there.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Rick i just wanted to know what brands members on here have used with success. Im not going to buy different brands because one happens to be on sale. I can read ingredients all day, but im asking for peoples personal experiences. 

Ill be checking out pulsar have heard of them but never tried it.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Just found a great deal locally for chicken backs. There is obviously a lot of bone content can I feed these daily or will too much cause a problem?


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Just found a great deal locally for chicken backs. There is obviously a lot of bone content can I feed these daily or will too much cause a problem?


Yeah, you can feed them every day. I like to mix the organs or tripe with the backs and then other things with a second meal of mostly muscle meat.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

I don't know if you've seen this Haz :

http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjhomemade2.html


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Just found a great deal locally for chicken backs. There is obviously a lot of bone content can I feed these daily or will too much cause a problem?


Watch for constipation and I can't stress enough that for the pup, know what the cal/phos ratio is.

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks that was a good link. I think I will wait another month till she is over 6 months before I start on the chicken backs.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Thanks that was a good link. I think I will wait another month till she is over 6 months before I start on the chicken backs.


For what its worth Haz, I'm more comfortable with 1 year. The last 3, I fed a commercial raw till they were big enough that the amount to feed is too expensive, then I went with a "premium" dog food. Taste of the wild isn't too expensive, till I was comfortable with putting together a raw diet for them.

For me, that's when they're about a year. That's really not based on anything other then me having less to think about with a puppy.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

My 9 week old gets chicken backs every other day and muscle meat in between then, and alongside it. The adults get chicken backs daily, the GSD twice daily. I've actually found them to be far more cartilage than bone, and haven't had any constipation problems like I did with leg quarters.


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## Anthony Taylor (Jan 14, 2013)

Haz Othman said:


> Rick i just wanted to know what brands members on here have used with success. Im not going to buy different brands because one happens to be on sale. I can read ingredients all day, but im asking for peoples personal experiences.
> 
> Ill be checking out pulsar have heard of them but never tried it.


Haz,
I use Fromm Gold LBP and have had great success with it and know many others who have also. It's a super quality food, made in the US by Fromm and a 30lb bag cost me $51. That includes shipping and there is no tax. I buy it on chewy.com. I feed kibble 4xs a week and raw 3xs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Haz Othman said:


> Rick i just wanted to know what brands members on here have used with success. Im not going to buy different brands because one happens to be on sale. I can read ingredients all day, but im asking for peoples personal experiences.
> 
> Ill be checking out pulsar have heard of them but never tried it.



Getting suggestions is great. 

One thing to be aware of is that a particular kibble (or any kind of food) that one dog may flourish with can be not-so-successful when given to another dog.

We've seen this here with several foods, including high-end brands.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Elaine Matthys said:


> Your thinking is seriously flawed. .... We are back to raw feeders making excuses to bash kibble and disguising it in bad science. .... You need to feed your dog as an individual and ignore all the silly myths out there.



I've said more times than I can count that not only is raw not necessary for a good diet for dogs, but that it's not even appropriate for every dog.


I stand by my comment that I don't do anything that will significantly slow the transit time for raw foods (meaning, the transit time for the possible pathogen load of raw foods).

That speedy transit time is one of the dog's basic mechanisms against illness from food-borne pathogens. So is the dog's very caustic stomach acid.

I don't mess with either one.

If I fed kibble with raw, I'd separate the two, as mentioned earlier.

You are entitled to your opinion, and so am I. I'm not calling your opinion silly. And I'm not "bashing kibble." :lol:




ETA
You are of course correct about individual differences in transit time. Even body size affects small bowel motility. Kidney disease affects transit time. The type of carb in a kibble affects transit time. There are many other factors. But this isn't something I was refuting.


2nd ETA
Just want to add that I respect several K9 nutrition sites; the one you have mentioned liking has loads of good material, and the owner's knowledge is impressive.

However, not every student/researcher of canine nutrition agrees with every other one on every single point.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Anthony Taylor said:


> Haz,
> I use Fromm Gold LBP and have had great success with it and know many others who have also. It's a super quality food, made in the US by Fromm and a 30lb bag cost me $51. That includes shipping and there is no tax. I buy it on chewy.com. I feed kibble 4xs a week and raw 3xs.


Thanks will check them out. Good feedback on here guys thanks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Haz, I found a thread that has lots of specific kibble recommendations in it:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/dry-kibble-dog-food-18431/


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Anthony Taylor said:


> Haz,
> I use Fromm Gold LBP and have had great success with it and know many others who have also. It's a super quality food, made in the US by Fromm and a 30lb bag cost me $51. That includes shipping and there is no tax. I buy it on chewy.com. I feed kibble 4xs a week and raw 3xs.


Fromm might be $50 in the US, but in Ontario, Canada, it's closer to $65 a bag, plus tax. Good food, but at 24% protein/16%fat, no bargain for that price.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Was just thinking if the pup is getting raw + a quality kibble, leaning towards nutro or acana would this not be a lot of protien? The better the kibble the more protien. 
She isnt fat by any means, if anything she is a touch leaner then I like. Im upping her portions but just curious what the thought on the protien issue is?


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## Anthony Taylor (Jan 14, 2013)

leslie cassian said:


> Fromm might be $50 in the US, but in Ontario, Canada, it's closer to $65 a bag, plus tax. Good food, but at 24% protein/16%fat, no bargain for that price.



I think at $65 in Canada its a little high but to get kibble from a company I can trust. I would still pay. When you find a good quality food, from a reliable company, it's worth it. 
Plus I thought the OP was in the US, so at $50 it is a very good deal. If he's not, my mistake. 
I believe it's min. 26% protein, the cal/phos is 1.3 : .97 which i think is very good. Also at 389cals a cup in a 33lb bag. It works. 

Of course there are a few others but I didn't like TOTW and the recalls, same with Evo and a few others.


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## Anthony Taylor (Jan 14, 2013)

Haz Othman said:


> Was just thinking if the pup is getting raw + a quality kibble, leaning towards nutro or acana would this not be a lot of protien? The better the kibble the more protien.
> She isnt fat by any means, if anything she is a touch leaner then I like. Im upping her portions but just curious what the thought on the protien issue is?


Haz,
I think acana is a very good kibble, I dont think it's too much protein. Kisy watch the calories when giving 1/2 the amount needed. I don't think nutro is a way I would go but that is more of a personal feeling. Here is a link that a guy made and keeps updated with all the quality kibble and what's in them. Hope it helps you out.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AsBcSQ8_xK_ndDRkYWo3NmRSWEl4T1NuX290bG5ULVE&output=html


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Haz Othman said:


> Was just thinking if the pup is getting raw + a quality kibble, leaning towards nutro or acana would this not be a lot of protien? The better the kibble the more protien.
> She isnt fat by any means, if anything she is a touch leaner then I like. Im upping her portions but just curious what the thought on the protien issue is?


A raw fed dog gets a lot of protein, why should it be a problem for a raw + kibble fed dog? 

I personally like Orijen/Acana, but that is because it works for my dog. YMMV.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks guys bought about 200 lbs of raw chicken thigh and leg with bone ground in. Also bought the Acana Chicken and rice was only $52 so a pretty good deal. That should last me about 4 mnths lol.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thigh and leg sound good, but remember that they would be only the RMB part of a raw diet ... that is, there would be boneless muscle meat added to that.

The kibble is balanced in and of itself, but balanced kibble can't also balance a calcium-heavy raw component.

You have a growing dog. Both the calcium-phosphorus ratio and the calcium content in and of itself are very important with a growing dog.

Think of it as one meal (the kibble) being balanced (calcium and phosphorus) and the other (poultry thigh/leg) as being just part of a balanced meal. (No, the diet doesn't need to be balanced for every meal, but it does need to be balanced over time. One meal every day that's heavy in calcium and the other that's balanced still results in a diet that's heavy in calcium.)

Steve's posts at http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f25/puking-alot-32921/index3.html#post493049 point to the need for balancing those RMBs with muscle meat.

IOW, the thigh/leg RMBs need to be 50% or a little less less of the raw part of the diet, with the rest of the raw part being boneless MM.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I thought the meat content on thighs and legs where quite high as compared to the bone. More so then the chicken backs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, you're right that thighs and legs can be as much as 50% of the RMB/meat portion.

If you were feeding something like whole chickens (divided up, fed over time), that could be considerably more than 50% of the RMB/meat portion. Something very bony like necks and wings would fall back into 30% or so of the RMB/meat portion.



I sent you some good links via PM.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yes, but I think what he is saying that leg quarters are more phosphorus than calcium? My sources indicated that the only part that is near correct regarding the cal/phos ratio is chicken backs. Someone posted a program that gives you the ratio for different meat parts in a thread.

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I think you refer to the weight-bearing bones being less easily digested, and therefore supplying less calcium? Good question.

But Haz mentioned that the bones are ground in. The weight-bearing bone issue becomes moot when ground. 

If this was going to be the entire diet, I'd be asking about a lot more, too. Chicken thighs/legs plus muscle meat isn't a complete diet. 

I'm not a fan of learning a raw diet on a puppy. But that already came up in the thread and appears to have been considered.



I did supply some good info (more detailed) via PM. (Much of it comes from other webboards, so I didn't post the links here.)


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks for the info have got through some of it.. Honestly I wouldnt normally worry I would just feed it and see how things go. However as she is a puppy i realize I should probably be careful about the calcium. Any suggestions on cheap types of MM?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

There will probably be lots of cheap muscle meat suggestions (boneless, to add to the appropriate proportion on RMBs), but one sometimes-overlooked one is beef heart. I add it quite slowly and watch the poops.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

just to add my 2 cents, my GSD girl ate Fromm Gold Puppy up until last week and never liked it on it's own. i ended up using Merrick's 96% line of canned food--she only liked 2 flavors--in hopes of putting weight on her and mainly to get her to eat with some enthusiasm so there went all the savings of using Fromm to begin with. she was/is getting canned Mackerel instead of the Merrick's when my husband decided our dog was eating more expensive lunches than he was and she LOVES the Mackerel but it smells like low tide and death. we recently discovered that the PX on base sells Blue Buffalo and--though i kind of loathed them on the principal of being uppity yuppy puppy chow and found them pricey--so we are transitioning off Fromm to that, plus stinky stinky fish. she really prefers the fish over raw chix, hamburger, or steak tips, and the cans are dirt cheap at the PX and alluringly inexpensive at regular stores...still not putting on the weight, but we do around 5 miles a day plus some off-leash time every day, and she just isn't a food motivated girl.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks Connie good info on those links. There is way more to this raw thing then I thought. Kind of wishing I stuck with kibble till she was older. 

I saw the Fromm gold at the local supply store but decided to go with the Acana since many seem to like it.


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