# Possessive



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I will recreate the scene. My female is laying at my feet every morning when my 7 year old comes down for breakfast. He normally comes to sit on my lap for a couple of minutes.

This scenario has evolved over time. My female will meet him at the stairs approx. 25 feet away and attempt to herd him away from approaching me. When he pushes through she will run over to me and plant herself between us. I've had other dogs do this kind of stuff but never with this much effort.

Normally I would just correct this behavior with a sit or down. I think if it was anyone but a pack member trying to approach, given this dog's temperament, she would hackle up and bite the person.

I like that possessiveness in certain circumstances. I don't want to take that natural protective instinct out of her. This is a dog you have to teach not to bite rather than the other way around. If I got "jumped" by someone I would want that natural instinct to take over without any further commands.

It occurred to me that this situation with my son will happen many more times with non pack members. It's something that I have not trained for. It is always me and the dog approaching someone else.

I presume I should tell her it's okay and put her on sit or down. I just don't want her looking to me for a command under adverse circumstances.

Comments or recommendations.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote: I just don't want her looking to me for a command under adverse circumstances.Unquote

From what you've written about her - she won't. I told you I have a similar problem with my older dog but we haven't got kids in the house. However, we have a cat that I would like to keep alive. First, I made it clear that the cat is not "prey" and then, later, as the cat wanted to come in an out, I took the friction out of the situation by telling him to go to one side to let the cat in. This being adhered to, he get's a biscuit. (Got this from the fluffy dog's owners, but it works).

First and foremost consideration is your 7-year old son. Any attempt on the dog's part to place itself above him should be nipped in the bud. I can't tell you how to do it - you get a feeling for it, at least I do. Sometimes I move so that the dog has no chance but to back away, sometimes I give a command. But, I don't wait to see what happens. When I let people into the house, he has to go to his mat and lie down. With some people, if I didn't do this, he would try to "put them in their place".

What the dog has in its makeup, i.e. low threshold, territorial aggression and so-on, you can control but not eliminate in my opinion.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Lee, I would not tell her it is okay. It is not. 

She is hanging near your feet trying to claim you and your child she wants to keep away from you. This is a big red flag for me. 

I would put the dog in a crate or in the very least in a solid down across the room every morning when you hear your son coming. 

I would not keep a dog like the one you have. That is not for me. No offense. 

Julie


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Place command.

She can't herd or block your son if she's laying on her mat off to the side.
And, you aren't punishing her (so no risk of creating resentment), you aren't training her NOT to do anything, you're just moving her out of the way when you want to to spend time with the boy.

Mine will do this from time to time. I just send her to her spot, cuddle with the kiddo, and when I'm done, I'll call her back, give her a pat and let her go back to hanging out at my feet.

As a result, she's mellowed dramatically on trying to get between us.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Understood! All recommendations are pretty much the same. The dog loves the boy so there is no biting issues or anything like that. 

I will send her place or "down" her.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Her herding is a way of trying to control your son. Doesn't matter how much she likes him. I wouldn't let it happen.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee, that's pretty much how my last dog started with my wife. I think that some dogs should be kennel dogs and there is nothing wrong with that.

Living or being in the house often can just be the wrong situation for some dogs to be in, IMO.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Very normal behaviour in the bloodline.
Especially the females have a strong protective side. They are very posesive to their "boss".

The best option is to "kennel" her en let her out after your "morning-rituel".

The moment you try to force her to stop this behaviour (with obedience f.e.) , the drive to posess you will only become bigger and then there maybe will develop agression towards your son.

(and if she is too much a pain in the *ss, as a Robby-daughter, you can ofcourse always sent her over for our breeding program ;-) )

regards,
Dick


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I wouldn't avoid the situation by putting her in a down or kenneling her myself, I would put a boot in her butt and put and end to it and call her back when the boy is in your lap. Dogs are not stupid. She hasn't snapped at him to keep him away because she already knows....you just haven't made it crystal clear. It is much like the first time a dog tried to bite you, That first time and right when it happens is the time to stop it. JMHO


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Very normal behaviour in the bloodline.
> Especially the females have a strong protective side. They are very posesive to their "boss".
> 
> The best option is to "kennel" her en let her out after your "morning-rituel".
> ...


Thanks Dick - She certainly seems to have ALL the attributes of your bloodlines, extreme in every way. If there is ever a "fight" this is a dog I would want at my side. But that's exactly what you breed for isn't it? \\/


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Lee, that's pretty much how my last dog started with my wife. I think that some dogs should be kennel dogs and there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Living or being in the house often can just be the wrong situation for some dogs to be in, IMO.


I understand what you are saying, Gerry, but she is great in the house and shows no "bad" intentions of any sort. I intend to belatedly nip it in the bud. 

I think it's way to soon to give up and kennel this pup permanently.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I wouldn't avoid the situation by putting her in a down or kenneling her myself, I would put a boot in her butt and put and end to it and call her back when the boy is in your lap. Dogs are not stupid. She hasn't snapped at him to keep him away because she already knows....you just haven't made it crystal clear. It is much like the first time a dog tried to bite you, That first time and right when it happens is the time to stop it. JMHO


Okay Don, I intend to go with the "crystal clear" route. If that does not work I have a wire crate right next to the dining table to crate he, like Dick suggests, until after the morning routine.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've re-read the thread and, I don't think we're all on the same page so it would make for an interesting discussion.

First off, I've maybe got a similar dog to Lee but no kids to consider.

One solution is crate him, thereby maybe skirting round the problem, unless he's always crated until the boy reaches a certain age.

One objection is to doing too much "obedience" with him in front of the boy. May make him more possessive.

One suggestion is boot his butt until he succombs, and, after thinking about it, I tend towards this solution, from Don.

Why?

As long as Lee is around the dog and kid, crating, sending him to his mat, he can achieve peace momentarily, but, and this is a big but. What happens when Lee is suddenly called out of the house on an emergency of any sort, and rushes out, leaving dog and son together. What happens here if the dog has not had his butt booted or whatever methods anyone uses to ensure the dog knows its place. 

It's a bit like using force in training for me and not seeing it through to the bitter end, flattened ears or not. The dog is left where you left it - not finished.

I honestly don't think that a dog like this will become "soft" through being put in it's place, namely at the bottom of the rung. 

I heard a story once of two dogs who were forbidden to enter the lounge. Thieves broke in but the dogs stood and watched them take off with the goodies. Whether this is true or not, a lot of people quote such situations.

Open to disucssion and looking forward to it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

By booting his butt could just be some stern words for Sternberg. He knows the dog best. The dog is passive in it's approach to separating the boy from Lee so it inherently knows his place....just has to know the boundaries. If so, it should be a simple correction or two. But, I am not a trainer even though I do figure dogs are pretty smart. Smart enough to know what they can get by with if allowed to do it for sure.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't want to harp on about just Lee's dog here.. I was hoping to have others join in the discussion and relate whether they avoid the issue by kenelling the dog or whether they face the issue and see it through or whatever??


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I also agree with Don.
This is not a situation I would avoid. You should be able to correct it with less intensity now, before waiting and creating more frustration by putting the dog behind a boundary. Obedience and crates are NOT a correction.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kristiina, I'm with you here or I would kennel the dog but it cannot serve as a PPD behind bars.

Going back to Lee's situation, he wants the dog as a protection dog, I think, so kennelling him is not a permanent solutionn

I don't feel the need of a PPD here. I teach my dogs to accept my visitors but, I can't leave them alone with them. One would eat them and the other would eat them, too, but nicely\\/


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

As Lee seems to know, this is his dog displaying posessiveness, not protectiveness. 
This is not a visitor situation (where you do not want to squelch the dog's behavior) I should hope that he needs no protection from his 7yr old. Permanately kenneling the dog is IMO, rediculous. Personally, I'd knock the shit out of the dog for even trying to herd my kid away from me. The dog needs to understand that there is ZERO room for interpretation- if the kid wants x space- whether thats in front of the tv, the hallway, or in front of Lee, the dog holds a lesser position in the household and needs to get out of that space, and fast. If the dog owns his own space, the house and the freakin owner...who is calling the shots?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I will try to explain the relationship between the boy and dog. It's totally friendly to the point of mutual admiration. They play together often under supervision. 

When the boy tries to "cuddle up" she gets between us. There is no sign (yet) of aggressive behavior towards him other than herding.

Now when my male dog approaches in the same manner she will sometimes get aggressive.
You are correct, Don, I know the dog and pay close attention to her body language. She displays a different attitude towards each of them.

I took the "boot in the butt" comment figuratively. She is handler soft so I believe I can handle the issue without kicking her ass. Now if it was my male, who is very hard, I would have a whole different approach.

I always go slowly with this dog because frankly I never owned one quite like her. This dog is loaded with aggression like I've never seen before but her "heart" is just a big. Combine that with being handler soft so she keeps me questioning myself all the time.

I rarely post situations with my male because I know how to deal with him.

Thanks for all the help.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I wouldn't avoid the situation by putting her in a down or kenneling her myself, I would put a boot in her butt and put and end to it and call her back when the boy is in your lap. Dogs are not stupid. She hasn't snapped at him to keep him away because she already knows....you just haven't made it crystal clear. It is much like the first time a dog tried to bite you, That first time and right when it happens is the time to stop it. JMHO


Glad to see some sensible advice in this thread.

Lee, don't pay attention to what I said. It's just a phase, the dog will only become better and better on its own, it's in the bloodline.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I've had this display with two very strong dominant dogs and of different breeds and it was met with a strong physical correction and that ended the behavior that day. My son was a toddler when these two puppies [now 13 year olds] came in to the house at 7 weeks. Each hit the same stage of possessiveness. I have always had a rule that any dog here will know in no uncertain terms that the kid is god. It was the same sort of scenario where dog and kid interacted fine until the possession issue arose. With Thor, he got the strong physical correction and then I also adopted some behaviorist type things where I had the kid putting the food down, holding the lead, etc. The issue was over as soon as it started and I firmly believe because we were "crystal" clear. I'm the warm and fuzzy trainer type but I do not tolerate dog dominance over house humans or biting the hand that feeds you. By the same token my kid has been raised on the premise of respect life---human and animal. Disrespecting an animal is a grave offense and not tolerated. So we've had no issues. On Lee's dog, I think you have to defer to him and the breeder as to what a handler can do and what result to the dog's psyche. With ours establishing the law of the land did not make the dog more possessive or take away from the dog in any other respect. If I remember correctly Thor was in the 6-9 month old range when it occurred. Later came the physical challenge to his handler--hubby and we dealt with that in a session to. This is a dog that one trainer said of "in the wrong hands he would be dangerous." He has been an awesome dog but as I've said definitely high maintenance. I don't know that if we would have let it go would he have just grown out of it or not. Didn't think I could take the chance. While we don't insists that all dogs get along, having to separate from one of the three humans in the household is not an option. If a dog here can't live amongst me, hubby and now 14 year old boy wonder, it just doesn't need to be here. 

Terrasita


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