# French Ring Decoy Corrections



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I just started with a French Ring club.

I'm coming from a schH background and both of my dogs have had extensive training in that arena. As a rule, I don't like helper corrections and generally don't allow them. 

The first night with the FR club things were great and there we no helper corrections. But the 2nd night there were decoy corrections and handling galore, not just with my dog but with all the dogs in the group. 

For example, dog goes in for a leg bite, there is a fight and then the dog outs. Now I admit I came to the club know very little about FR but the dogs are trained well enough to understand OUT - PLATZ and do it in a flash.

In this case, decoy yells OUT and the dogs does nothing but continue to fight, stupid me assumes the dog is supposed to fight with the decoy yelling commands to the dog to **** with him. Then the decoy grabs the tab attached to the fur saver, yanks hard "OUT" and then tells him to "PLATZ." 

Hmmmm I don't like that. Granted I hadn't done my due diligence at the time but all the decoy has to say is OUT your dog and tell him to lay down. That I can do and then we avoid the helper corrections. 

Then we worked on the Defense of Handler exercise. The dog doesn't know to move backwards around me. Without asking, the decoy takes the leash and snaps the dog away from him as he moves into the dog and around me. I can be doing that. Or is it more effective when the decoy does it?

I asked the decoy about his corrections and he tells me the dog needs to have a relationship with the decoy and since this is a sport, he doesn't want to train the dogs to be super serious where they bite him in the face etc... I asked if that is the typical way FR dogs are trained. He said YES. I don't like that but this is all new to me.

Are these types of decoy corrections/training typical in Ring?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm glad you asked this question. I have seen this occur in some videos and wondered about it myself.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I just started with a French Ring club.
> 
> I'm coming from a schH background and both of my dogs have had extensive training in that arena. As a rule, I don't like helper corrections and generally don't allow them.
> 
> ...


 
In short Yes, it is training. You are unable to teach what the dog needs to trial so the Decoy needs to.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes there is decoy corrections as your decoy is correct it is a sport. Think of it like a training triangle dog, decoy and handler all working for a common goal. 

It isn't like a PPD dog or PSD where an aggression by the prey the dogs are trained to ignore any of that B.S. It takes a certain dog to be able to do one or the other. One dog is more civil and one more prey to bite for fun. I've seen civil aggro dogs on the ring field and it is a lesson in futility for the sport but I bet they would make one hell of a PSD. 

I saw one serious Belgian bloodline male Mal who gripped like a mofo and the more opposition he'd get from the decoy the more he'd fight. So basically decoy corrections were futile. For example he'd guard the decoy from the handler on pickup as he wasn't finished chomping the decoy, it was pretty amazing to see. It got ugly real quick. 

Open field same team before a trial the handler tells the local decoy who has never worked the dog before to nail him in the head with a slap or something silly like that if the dog is dirty which he does. The next day on the trial field the team loses the basket first shot from the decoy and lost all points in the escort for outs and dirty bites, at the end of the escort "X OUT Couche Guarde" The dog grabs the decoys gonads and everyone sees clearly that the dog pulls the decoy's cup off (through the suit) and then slam dunks the cup right back into him. LOL I was so surprised that the decoy didn't crumple under the beating he took! The dog was just full of hate that day! 

So the FR training decoy will help dog and handler more the dog be in the right position. FR training decoy will help in the dog development through more handler like interactions using his voice and physically manipulating the dog. Trial it is totally opposite, you'll never hear a decoy yell at a dog or physically manipulate a dog outside the rules in the decoy book. 

The key is knowing and trusting your decoy, him knowing you and the dog as well as having a plan with the decoy before you take the dog out of the crate to avoid surprises. One of the better training decoys I worked with, didn't speak english but yet he could read our dog/handler team like the back of his hand. I got to know exactly what he wanted from me and the dog by head nods and eye gestures. He helped out many a dog not just mine. Here we are over 2 years ago when we were pre brevet and only had less than 6 months of working in. My inexperience at the time shows as he guides the dog @ 0:14, 1:27 or so you see the head gestures and eye movements that I clued in on as a full triangle training team (as I gained more experience, since I was late to out her here). 1:37 the command from the decoy probably wasn't warranted as she already was in the position, maybe it was reinforcement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZOERXe7r8E To me this is an classic example of a FR training decoy guiding and manipulating the inexperienced dog and handler to be correct in the work. 

Me I'm of the camp that the training decoy (for FR) sees things that me as a handler doesn't see and if guidance is warranted, do it. Like if you recall the dog and the dog continues to beat the crap out of the decoy without a e-collar or a line accessable in your hand. Does the decoy let it continue? So that the dog sees it can screw with you? You then create a monster and then the corrections end up getting escalated, where one good correction from a decoy in the beginning will save months of heartache for both you, decoy and dog. 

I also believe the training decoy as well as guiding and correcting the dog when the handler can't, needs to be considered to the dog as someone to trust and have fun with. More for the guidance part, and to continuously build the dogs confidence. 

Once you have 9-10 months in of regular training in and you do your Brevet it becomes a piece of cake FR1 same. By the time you are trialing FR2-3 the dog should have built so much confidence from being guided by your training decoy, there won't be a lot of stuff a trial decoy can pull off in those 15secs when the dog is on the bite anyways.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I just started with a French Ring club.
> 
> I'm coming from a schH background and both of my dogs have had extensive training in that arena. As a rule, I don't like helper corrections and generally don't allow them.
> 
> ...


Chris,

I'd be more worried about the decoy giving my dog commands, then corrections. My dogs are trained to ignore anyone but me. If the decoy unfairly corrects the dog, he is
likely to get bit. I've had Mondio Ring decoys guide the dog
after I've given the command but decoy commands followed by a harsh correction? I don't think so :=(

The bottomline is, a decent decoy should discuss things with the handler BEFORE he does something AND adjust the "training" to fit the temperament and previous training of
each individual dog IMHO


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The bottomline is, a decent decoy should discuss things with the handler BEFORE he does something AND adjust the "training" to fit the temperament and previous training of
> each individual dog IMHO


I agree Thomas but there is going to be a learning curve from everyone involved with a share of fubars from all parties at first. Especially with Chris being a ring newb, it is a whole new ball of wax than any of his previous training experience. So not just the decoy but handler as well, communicate, communicate communicate, communicate, if not don't bring the dog on the field.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> I just started with a French Ring club.
> 
> I'm coming from a schH background and both of my dogs have had extensive training in that arena. As a rule, I don't like helper corrections and generally don't allow them.
> 
> ...


I do it often, but only when the handler can not.
Take for example. Teaching the out/guard. 
When the dog nails me, he has his fight, when the handler yells for him to out/guard, I grab the leash and pop him if he ignores the command. It's not something that can be done correctly from 40meters by the handler. 
Also, when he is guarding me, a can guide him. The handler can't do this in training, or in a trial. 
It also promotes, like you said, a dog that is interacting with the decoy. The dog is not supposed to want to kill the decoy in FR, it's just getting a mouth full of linen.


I will say that whenever I correct the dog, the handler knows, I never correct or praise a dog without concent.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

It can't be any worse than the dog getting getting a boot in the chest when learning the B&H or having a couple of prongs around his loins run by someone else when his turns aren't correct in Sch OB.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Chris,

I was also suprised by the amount of decoy corrections when I started out. I'm not a big fan of the corrections, but I guess they are a nesasary tool to achive any success.

I have noticed with my pup that the corrections he has recieved have effected his performance on the field. He anticipates the correction some times and it has taken away from his drive to fight the decoy. I'm sure it's not the case with every dog, but these are some of my observations with my dog early on.

Good luck.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Chris,
> 
> 
> I have noticed with my pup that the corrections he has recieved have effected his performance on the field. He anticipates the correction some times and it has taken away from his drive to fight the decoy. I'm sure it's not the case with every dog, but these are some of my observations with my dog early on.
> ...



That's what I'm afraid of, my Mal has great nerve and bounce back but he's very sensitive to correction.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> It can't be any worse than the dog getting getting a boot in the chest when learning the B&H or having a couple of prongs around his loins run by someone else when his turns aren't correct in Sch OB.



That's different Gerry. The kick to the chest teaches respect but commands and compulsion with a lead and collar teaches compliance.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> That's different Gerry. The kick to the chest teaches respect but commands and compulsion with a lead and collar teaches compliance.


That's just semantics unless you heard it from your dog.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Chris,

Before I say anything else... you and the decoy should discuss the training plan for the session LONG BEFORE you ever step on the field. Training is so much easier when all parties involved understand what and when things are going to happen and WHY.

Yes it is completely normal for a ringsport decoy to correct a dog... both verbally and physically.

As a handler... how are you going to correct the dog, with correct timing when you are 40m+ away from your dog? How are you going to correct the dog on the basket when you are completely out of the dogs sight?

In case you have never handled your own dog with him 40m+ away let me tell you it is hard to see at that distance. The handler does not know whether the dog was spot on with the outs, dirty or just punching the decoy, etc... BUT the DECOY does. The decoy is the best person to correct or manipulate the dog because he is directly in the fight and knows exactly what is going on, while the handler can only watch what is happening.

The name "Ring" comes from the boxing ring, where two oponents meet to fight. The dog and the decoy share this relationship. However no boxer ever gets anywhere without great training adversaries... and the training decoy is that adversary. He teaches the dog the rules, shows him the moves and how to best them and the dog and the decoy BOTH respect each other. The handler is the trainer who calls the shots, but the training decoy is the adversary that builds the dog. So the decoy and the handler work in conjunction with each other to provide the best learning scenario for the dog.

In a perfect world the handler/trainer would be the most knowledgable, however this rarely happens, so it is up to the decoy to train both the handler and the dog at the same time.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that if the decoy called "out" that you, as the handler, missed a subtle cue from the decoy to out your dog, so the decoy took over and did it for you. 

Tamara McIntosh


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
That's different Gerry. The kick to the chest teaches respect but commands and compulsion with a lead and collar teaches compliance.

Why should the dog respect the helper in Sch ?? You kick my dog in the chest, and he will bite you.

All I am hearing is that you did not do enough work so that the dog understands what is going on. 

Why is the dog not outing ?? That is what I would be concerned with. I am not against a decoy correcting my dog, but who is the decoy, and is he good enough to differentiate from a dog that is blowing you off, or just not ready for what his dumb ass owner has thrown at him.

Why do I think that it is the latter and not the former ??

Who taught you guys to train ?? Good God, if the decoy is yelling and correcting the shit out of the dog, then HEY ****WAD IT IS YOUR FAULT FOR NOT TEACHING THIS SHIT, AND THROWING YOUR DOG UNDER THE BUS.

Thank you, thank you. THis one is free. I will be doing seminars, please PM for costs.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> That's what I'm afraid of, my Mal has great nerve and bounce back but he's very sensitive to correction.


You can teach a lot of the basics alone with your dog. You should teach in baby steps with you and your dog beside each other. If you want to work on outs and guards, you can send your dog then you can go up to your dog and be beside your dog, then you can guide and correct your dog yourself in the beginning before building distance. 

I never put one of my young or green dog on a strange decoy and allowing the decoy to correct and yell at the dog. When I'm teaching my dog something new, I don't correct harshly and yell at my dog and I have a relationship with the dog. It's not the way I teach a dog.  There is nothing wrong with taking the training way back to basics when introducing a new decoy. The owner of the dog is ultimately responsible for what happens to his/her dog. As the owner, you must discuss training and make efforts to ensure your dogs well being and successful training. You know your dog best. If the dog gets messed up, you are the one owning the dog and stuck with the mistakes or injuries.

Also, if you do train a lot of foundation with the handler controlling and correcting the dog, then the dog is more versatile and if you decide to change directions and train more police style work with him, I feel it will be easier. Dogs can be titled to FRIII w/o being hung, yelled at and harshly corrected by decoys. 

My mal, Dexter is FRIII and he doesn't respond well to decoy corrections. He can be guided, but if the decoy takes the leash and start slamming him with the pinch for an out, the fight ensues and he just commits more to not outing. You'd be there all night with a big fight. Decoy's arm would be tired and dog would be just trying to bite harder and harder. So why go there? It's a sport and it's best to train what is most effective with the individual dog. He works best with electric and handler corrections. He loves his owner and doesn't respect the decoy much. He's completely safe with decoys though and doesn't try to bite inappropriately. I think you have to consider the temperament of your dog and what you are comfortable with and then develop a training strategy.

Take the training back all the way to where you feel you and your dog understand and perform correctly and then go forward slowly.

Also, remember if you send your dog on a decoy that you don't know and the dog has a leash that the decoy can grab, it's possible that he corrects your dog. You can use an e-collar for corrections as this is another tool in the equipment box (if you know how to properly use one). Many times, you can use the pager to remind the dog.

On the other side, I can see why decoys will correct dogs for handlers though as I've seen some handlers send their dogs to let them just chew the decoy up and have no control over the dog. That is not fair and is not good training. Then the decoy has to grab the leash and correct the dog harshly to get it off of him. I think all handlers should get in the suit a few times for some big biting dogs to know what the decoys feel..jmo. I've been in the suit mainly for the escort and object guard and it's painful. So take very good care of your training decoy and appreciate him and don't let him get abused and chewed up by the dogs. A good decoy is hard to find so treat them with LOVE! :-\"


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff,

My dog outs just fine for me. I don't expect him to listen to other people. In general his OB is good and getting much better. I don't have a problem with the dog at all and if I knew at the time that he had to out and lay down I would have told him to do it. Much of what happened was just a communication issue on my part and the decoy's part. 

When I started I expressed to the decoy that I didn't know anything and wouldn't have time to research all of the exercises this weekend. He said don't worry about it. 

Then the corrections started and I was thinking I don't like that. I talked to my training buds, mostly schH folks and they all frowned on the corrections.

I talked to another guy about the decoy and was told he wouldn't screw up the dog and the decoy knows what he's doing so talk to him and follow his lead. Then I thought I would post about it to wrap my head around it more. My original post is all about me figuring out what is going on and not the level of OB on my dog.

re: schH respect.

I understand what you are saying Jeff. My mind set is, the helper is a bad guy and a real bad guy could hurt the dog so a modicum of respect should be there so the dog doesn't get too dumb. We didn't teach the bark and hold with a long line and checking. We taught it by sending the dog, checking him once to show him the position, anything past that and the dog gets stomped. Until the dog moves back to the position. 

I didn't send the dog to bite, I sent the dog to bark and hold the "bad guy". Most of the dogs in our group have issues with running into the blind and getting stupid on the B&H exercise. the two dogs that were initially trained with a long line and constant checking are the dogs that are dirty on occasion.

The training is different for the exercises when the dog is expected to bite right away.






Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> That's different Gerry. The kick to the chest teaches respect but commands and compulsion with a lead and collar teaches compliance.
> 
> Why should the dog respect the helper in Sch ?? You kick my dog in the chest, and he will bite you.
> ...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

All I knew at the time was we were going to work on targeting the leg sleeve. I didn't know that we would be outing and making him lay down. The previous sessions were bite the leg sleeve, deal with stick hits and hand around and under the dog and then the sleeve is slipped. After we talked after the last session the decoy said he thought the dog was ready and agreed we should have talked first but he was working within the moment. 

In schH the one helper that does all of the defense work is an old school trainer was in the habit of yelling at the dog while he was fighting him. The point was to add pressure for the dog to fight through. Now the yelling only serves to escalate the dog. That helper's mindset is only the handler gives commands the dog should obey. If I say bite, you bite regardless of whether not somebody else is yelling no.


That where the conflict came in with the FR decoy giving commands vs the dog vs me the handler. 

I have a ton more understanding about all of this due to my research, the posts on this thread and others. 




Debbie Skinner said:


> You can teach a lot of the basics alone with your dog. You should teach in baby steps with you and your dog beside each other. If you want to work on outs and guards, you can send your dog then you can go up to your dog and be beside your dog, then you can guide and correct your dog yourself in the beginning before building distance.
> 
> I never put one of my young or green dog on a strange decoy and allowing the decoy to correct and yell at the dog. When I'm teaching my dog something new, I don't correct harshly and yell at my dog and I have a relationship with the dog. It's not the way I teach a dog. There is nothing wrong with taking the training way back to basics when introducing a new decoy. The owner of the dog is ultimately responsible for what happens to his/her dog. As the owner, you must discuss training and make efforts to ensure your dogs well being and successful training. You know your dog best. If the dog gets messed up, you are the one owning the dog and stuck with the mistakes or injuries.
> 
> ...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> That's what I'm afraid of, my Mal has great nerve and bounce back but he's very sensitive to correction.


Wellllllllll..... This is something you need to be discussing with the decoy prior to going on the field not with us, IMO. 

The training decoy will still need some way to communicate the guidance with the dog. If you don't start making a plan with the decoy every time pre session your FR career as a handler is going to be frustrating and short. 

Corrections or No Corrections and bitching about it, to me is a non issue until you get the pre session decoy communication part right.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

thats why sport annoys me
people teach to the test, not to reality
by the helper correcting your dog he may be making him test better in the FR trail but it seems ot me he is ****ing up reality
I have seen this with other dogs and I just told the helper "i want my dog to bite you if you hit him with a stick" so they accomplished the same thihng a different way
its your dog, they shold be working for you, even if what u want is different


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

i you don't want to let the decoy correct the dog use an e collar. you can give the e collar and voice correction.the decoy can guide the dog into place. jmo


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Wellllllllll..... This is something you need to be discussing with the decoy prior to going on the field not with us, IMO.
> 
> The training decoy will still need some way to communicate the guidance with the dog. If you don't start making a plan with the decoy every time pre session your FR career as a handler is going to be frustrating and short.
> 
> Corrections or No Corrections and bitching about it, to me is a non issue until you get the pre session decoy communication part right.



I don't mean to come across as bitching. I'm just looking for information. If this is how it's trained than so be it. I just want to do Ring but I come from a background where helper corrections are generally frowned upon so I'm on a knowledge seeking mission.

I know a lot more about FR since I've started a few days ago, enough where I can direct the exercises and be a trainer rather than an idiot that is watching his dog being trained by somebody else.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> i you don't want to let the decoy correct the dog use an e collar. you can give the e collar and voice correction.the decoy can guide the dog into place. jmo



It's not that I do or don't want it, I didn't know if that's the way it's trained or not. I get it now.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chris,

I agree in principle where you are coming from with this post. Especially the conflict you feel about the decoy giving any corrections. Coming from working with that old schooler SchH trainer I see where the issues both yours and the dog are coming from. 

To me if I was in your shoes, you either pick one or the other sport. If you go into FR with a SchH or PPD mentality it isn't going to work unless you have tons of experience with both and the dog is 1 in a 1,000 to be clear in the head to differentiate between the 2 sports bite-work requirements. I wouldn't be doing both at this point. 

My dog has trained in both and she is by nature more of a Ring dog than SchH dog. Though she loves to bite the shit out of the SchH sleeve her flee attacks are to die for and her grips are smoking on the arm sleeve. But since she has learnt to take direction from the ring training decoy, verbal pressure from the SchH decoy confuses her more than anything. So I had to make a decision on one or the other on how serious I wanted to be in these sports. 

I think one of the biggest mistakes you can make with a ring dog is "thought the dog was ready" ready for what? [-X Working in the moment without that all important plan is recipe for fail. As well as going ahead to fast with a green dog. 

Sure working the moment is needed as the training situation dictates, they are animals after all. Keep making it fun for the dog and always end a session with the dog winning. If you decide to seriously continue with FR, keep building that triangle training relationship with your decoy. 

I hope this helps. 

p.s. I'm not a fan of downing a dog in the front for guards. My reasoning is that it works for the Brevet but FR1 and higher where there is decoy escapes it is B.S. My dog as fast and explosive as she is should never lose metres from any decoy but it is always a metre here and a metre there. That my friend is her positioning nothing more and IMO a training issue. Ask your decoy why? Ask him if you are training the dog for a brevet or for Lvl 3? LOL. 

I know it is for targeting and decoy safety but it does add an extra step of compliance OB to the dog. Doing it this way the decoy is the only person able to guide/correct the dog to be there. I'd be talking about it before your next session if there is another way to do help the dog target, work his outs and keep the decoy safe. Don't make the same mistake I did. As we are still fighting to fix this. 



Chris Michalek said:


> All I knew at the time was we were going to work on targeting the leg sleeve. I didn't know that we would be outing and making him lay down. The previous sessions were bite the leg sleeve, deal with stick hits and hand around and under the dog and then the sleeve is slipped. After we talked after the last session the decoy said he thought the dog was ready and agreed we should have talked first but he was working within the moment.
> 
> In schH the one helper that does all of the defense work is an old school trainer was in the habit of yelling at the dog while he was fighting him. The point was to add pressure for the dog to fight through. Now the yelling only serves to escalate the dog. That helper's mindset is only the handler gives commands the dog should obey. If I say bite, you bite regardless of whether not somebody else is yelling no.
> 
> ...


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Chris,
I agree with Geoff on this. I am presently living that situation with my 8 month old GSD Jack. 
Jack is on the leg sleeve and outs well but when Fred our French decoy comes in to pick up the sleeve, the dog refocuses on Fred and tries to bite the hand. I thought this was ok (my past experience with dogs was police work) but I understand that Ring is a sport and that the dog must be worked differently. The fact that there is a partnership with the training helper is part of this game. Whatever the dog's makeup is will not change, and he will be able to take the pressure later on because he can, but he will accept this game for now. 
This decision of doing Ring and accepting it as a sport is important, otherwise I should do something else.
Sometimes we must ask if it is an ego thing that makes corrections from the helper appear as a negative thing.
But then again just my opinion
Mike


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> thats why sport annoys me
> people teach to the test, not to reality
> by the helper correcting your dog he may be making him test better in the FR trail but it seems ot me he is ****ing up reality
> I have seen this with other dogs and I just told the helper "i want my dog to bite you if you hit him with a stick" so they accomplished the same thihng a different way
> its your dog, they shold be working for you, even if what u want is different


 
This post shows a complete Lack of Understanding of what is going on. :-?

In ring the Helper is there to teach Technique.


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## Bob Solimini (Aug 10, 2008)

Chris,
I am curious... Why are decoy/helper corrections frowned upon? Or why don't you like them?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Bob Solimini said:


> Chris,
> I am curious... Why are decoy/helper corrections frowned upon? Or why don't you like them?



I decided this morning, that I'm going to get my dogs to schH III and then start Ring. Only one sport at a time as Geoff and others have suggested. The Mali can do both and he's probably better suited as a ring dog. The Rott needs to stay in schH as he's best suited for that.

Bob, my entry into working dogs is with Police K9 and then Schutzhund where one of the main helpera is an old school PP/schH guy who believes the dog should focus on the man and not give a shit about the sleeve. We've done quite a bit of civil aggression especially after the break in on my home a few months ago. The mentality is one where the dog fights the man no matter what. 

I get that FR is completely different and my first couple of sessions I was watching and evaluating with my previous experience. Like being a hockey player and then think you know something about football when you don't at all.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I decided this morning, that I'm going to get my dogs to schH III and then start Ring. Only one sport at a time as Geoff and others have suggested. The Mali can do both and he's probably better suited as a ring dog. The Rott needs to stay in schH as he's best suited for that.
> 
> Bob, my entry into working dogs is with Police K9 and then Schutzhund where one of the main helpera is an old school PP/schH guy who believes the dog should focus on the man and not give a shit about the sleeve. We've done quite a bit of civil aggression especially after the break in on my home a few months ago. The mentality is one where the dog fights the man no matter what.
> 
> I get that FR is completely different and my first couple of sessions I was watching and evaluating with my previous experience. Like being a hockey player and then think you know something about football when you don't at all.


 
So you are going to train a Schutzhund dog to not give a shit about the Sleeve? ](*,)


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> So you are going to train a Schutzhund dog to not give a shit about the Sleeve? ](*,)



they'll bite it if it's there otherwise the dogs don't really seem to care what they bite. The point is, you can toss the sleeve to the side and they may or may not glance at it and will keep focus on the man. It's the way they were trained.

All I have ever heard with training in schH is "You don't want no sleeve dog." I didn't know any better when I started.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I decided this morning, that I'm going to get my dogs to schH III and then start Ring. Only one sport at a time as Geoff and others have suggested. The Mali can do both and he's probably better suited as a ring dog. The Rott needs to stay in schH as he's best suited for that.


Chris talk to your FR club members and decoys about the issues, hopefully you will get some sort of plan and compromise so you can still work in Ring. It's worth it to ask.


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## Bob Solimini (Aug 10, 2008)

I know that a lot of people believe that sport work and police and protection work (street work) is not the same type of training and cannot be mixed. That a “real dog” or a street trained dog should not out for the decoy. In sport the dog must respect the decoy so it will out and/or guard with precision. I agree with this to a certain extent. I have seen and trained a good amount of sport and street dogs that would bite for real and still respected the decoys correction. When the dog was biting on the street it DID NOT CARE what the bad guy did he was NOT letting go!!! You still see this in sport with a strong dog, when the decoy gets in his head and makes him think he is in a real fight they will not out…
I think that if a street dog is sent FOR REAL it should not be wearing any correction collar, except a remote collar. It is too easy for a bad guy to grab a prong or choker and hang the dog, no matter how it is trained it will let go… Maybe after it passes out but still it is out...
In training that same dog, the decoy could correct the dog (within reason, fairly and clearly for the dog) and the dog will still have the same vigilance on the street. Of course SOME dogs cannot take a correction from the decoy and will refuse to reengage or bite again. I feel these dogs should not be on the street. Because of the a**kicking it will get during a real bite will be far worse than a correction from a decoy.
Of course there are always 2 sides to every coin. This is just how I feel and from my experiences working with both street and sport dogs. EVERYONE has a different opinion and most are correct. You should do what you feel benefits YOUR DOG…. And stick with that!
As for Ring Sport I 100% agree with decoy corrections but they MUST be VERY clear, and fair. It is a must that the dog respects the decoy as a sparring partner not an adversary! An inexperienced decoy doing decoy corrections can screw up your dog faster than parvo! I think this is where the whole ‘no decoy corrections” came from! But that is also just my opinion. 
I believe that any dog that has the genetics to do the work will, with good training and with or without decoy corrections. It is simply a tool, which some people use and some choose not to. Much like a remote collar, or a prong.. Some people use them and some say it is not good.. The thing I find troubling is when people say “that is not the way to do it!” well maybe you don’t like it but if it works, then it is the way for THAT person or that dog! It is not what tool you choose to use, it is HOW you choose to use it!!! 
I think this is a great subject, and I actually have a lot to say about it, but I do not have the energy, the articulation or the time to put in to writing a book about it!!! LOL

Good luck in SchH and Ring!!!!


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> I decided this morning, that I'm going to get my dogs to schH III and then start Ring. Only one sport at a time as Geoff and others have suggested. The Mali can do both and he's probably better suited as a ring dog. The Rott needs to stay in schH as he's best suited for that.
> 
> Bob, my entry into working dogs is with Police K9 and then Schutzhund where one of the main helpera is an old school PP/schH guy who believes the dog should focus on the man and not give a shit about the sleeve. We've done quite a bit of civil aggression especially after the break in on my home a few months ago. The mentality is one where the dog fights the man no matter what.
> 
> I get that FR is completely different and my first couple of sessions I was watching and evaluating with my previous experience. Like being a hockey player and then think you know something about football when you don't at all.


Hi Chris,

I think it is a wise idea to focus on one sport at a time. I have had some great discussions with some very great trainers in french ring and mondio ring and their advice is always the same... do one sport at a time and do it well and really focus on it. When you are done or satisfied, then make the switch to another sport. 

Trying to do multiple sports at one time, especially sports that are contrary to each other (just read the thread on the A'Tim koerung to see why) can be confusing to the dog and handler. I have even been advised to finish my dog in french ring before making a switch to even mondio ring. Dogs work best when life is black and white, and you really muddy the waters when you take them different training systems at the same time.

Tamara McIntosh


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