# Working Dutch Shepherd Assoc - Worthwhile?



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I saw the other day that the Working Dutch Shepherd Association in the States has now got AWDF status, which I guess is a good thing. However, the Dutchie isnt even a registered purebred dog with the AKC, and the vast majority of the Dutchies in the States are non pedigreed KNPV ones. The mission of the WDSA is to become a parter of the Dutch Shepherd Club of Holland, which has done the worst possible job with maintaining working abilities with the pedigreed DS's in Holland, and it was a club up until not too long ago who's official position was the DS should not be a biting dog, just show and herding. I wonder if this type of AWDA will gain the support of the working Dutch Shepherd people in the states if it really seems aimed at FCI pedigreed dogs and IPO?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> I saw the other day that the Working Dutch Shepherd Association in the States has now got AWDF status, which I guess is a good thing. However, the Dutchie isnt even a registered purebred dog with the AKC, and the vast majority of the Dutchies in the States are non pedigreed KNPV ones. The mission of the WDSA is to become a parter of the Dutch Shepherd Club of Holland, which has done the worst possible job with maintaining working abilities with the pedigreed DS's in Holland, and it was a club up until not too long ago who's official position was the DS should not be a biting dog, just show and herding. I wonder if this type of AWDA will gain the support of the working Dutch Shepherd people in the states if it really seems aimed at FCI pedigreed dogs and IPO?


Chris I'm pretty sure they can count me out.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Don't you know that the USA isn't happy unless they at least make a go at destroying anything and everything thats good. I can't see why they just can't get over the fact of no papers and leave well enough the hell alone.](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I dont think it is all that bad it gives people that like the DS another option for training and competing. I think alot of the folks that compete in IPO dont really fit in with the PSA folk. It gives them an outlet. Wont have much of an affect on the X DS unless of course the registry is still open then it could have a good change for the pedigree DS


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

eh...

They do recognize the UKC and ADBA  UKC is open...

I think gaining status with the Club in Holland is a pipe dream...

They also recognize working venues with a 2/3 vote...requirement on paper is to hold at least 3 "trials" per year...

sounds like a title whores dream to me...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> eh...
> 
> They do recognize the UKC and ADBA  UKC is open...
> 
> ...


I hope to hell Holland denies the **** out of us to be honest, malis and DS are about the only thing left working with the exception of a few dam good GSD.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I saw the other day that the Working Dutch Shepherd Association in the States has now got AWDF status, which I guess is a good thing. However, the Dutchie isnt even a registered purebred dog with the AKC, and the vast majority of the Dutchies in the States are non pedigreed KNPV ones. The mission of the WDSA is to become a parter of the Dutch Shepherd Club of Holland, which has done the worst possible job with maintaining working abilities with the pedigreed DS's in Holland, and it was a club up until not too long ago who's official position was the DS should not be a biting dog, just show and herding. I wonder if this type of AWDA will gain the support of the working Dutch Shepherd people in the states if it really seems aimed at FCI pedigreed dogs and IPO?


 
I can potentially see some good and bad on this, depening on how you think and which way your going with this. Regardless, people will continue to do what they do with the dogs they do it with....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm a WDSA member, have been for awhile. There is strength is numbers and organizing with other DS owners. The founder Les Flores is an excellent trainer and competitor. The WDSA isn't just about IPO but they want to promote the DS in ring sport and nose work, agility etc. Being a full AWDF member club is an important mile stone. I'm not much interested in
any connection to any Euro DS Organization but if some other members want it. It's OK with me.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I have never met Les flores but I have only heard good things about the man.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Don't you know that the USA isn't happy unless they at least make a go at destroying anything and everything thats good. I can't see why they just can't get over the fact of no papers and leave well enough the hell alone.](*,)](*,)](*,)


The WDSA is interested in promoting WORKING DS whether they have papers or not. I'm a member and Belatucadrus has a Continental Kennel Club "pedigree" 

Why wouldn't the FCI DS WDSA members look to associate with the parent breed club? Look at the SV and UScA.
The SV screws the GSD owners (through UScA and GSDCA/WDA) all the time and we still want the connection to the parent breed club


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The WDSA is interested in promoting WORKING DS whether they have papers or not. I'm a member and Belatucadrus has a Continental Kennel Club "pedigree"
> 
> Why wouldn't the FCI DS WDSA members look to associate with the parent breed club? Look at the SV and UScA.
> The SV screws the GSD owners (through UScA and GSDCA/WDA) all the time and we still want the connection to the parent breed club


No disrespect to you Thomas but I can give two shits about the SV or FCI and there papers and parent breed clubs here and abroad, all I care about is the dog ( s ), if they come with papers great if they dont and there still workers great, I know one thing for sure is I don't want the politics, for the most part when I deal with the dutch and some of the belgians I don't have headaches like I do when I have to deal with this and that with FCI or SV. Thats just me though maybe others have it different, I know one thing I don't deal with is this one or that one trying to put other dogs down to say why theres is better. Ones I deal with and talk to talk about is there own dog qualities, where with GSD especially its a full blown pissing contest and the majority of SV or FCI is made up by those owners.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The WDSA is interested in promoting WORKING DS whether they have papers or not.


so my dog has no papers...I can join?

or do I have to "get some papers" first?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> so my dog has no papers...I can join?
> 
> or do I have to "get some papers" first?


As far as I know. No one at the WDSA has ever asked me for a pedigree. The only reason I got one from the CKC is I didn't want to get a score book that had him listed as a "mix"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> As far as I know. No one at the WDSA has ever asked me for a pedigree. The only reason I got one from the CKC is I didn't want to get a score book that had him listed as a "mix"


Like I said...eh...sounds ok..but I doubt the ultimate goal will ever be realized, when the "parent" orgs..see the path "on paper" to get involved...

When I see "preserve the breed" my eyes usually roll in this type of thing...I am no purist..

Thomas...you are member...do you know what working organizations are recognized thus far? truly curious...I can get papers tomorrow if I had a reason..


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

From what I understand the AWDF is the pathway for FCI Championships? Obviously to be allowed to compete at the FCI's you have to have an FCI or FCI approved pedigree. The FCI does not recognise UKC CKC pedigrees, so no go there. As the AKC doesnt recognise the DS there will not be any American bred dogs who can go to the FCI's etc.
So for the odd person who has an FCI pedigreed DS that is half decent they may well benefit from it. 
So what exactly would the non pedigreed DS owners get from this WDSA?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> From what I understand the AWDF is the pathway for FCI Championships? Obviously to be allowed to compete at the FCI's you have to have an FCI or FCI approved pedigree. The FCI does not recognise UKC CKC pedigrees, so no go there. As the AKC doesnt recognise the DS there will not be any American bred dogs who can go to the FCI's etc.
> So for the odd person who has an FCI pedigreed DS that is half decent they may well benefit from it.
> So what exactly would the non pedigreed DS owners get from this WDSA?


listings of all the titles on the paperwork from the various venues...


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> listings of all the titles on the paperwork from the various venues...


So the WDSA is going to issue pedigrees? So will it be only FCI approved titles? Considering that the FCI no longer recognises KNPV titles that would make it pretty dumb.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> So the WDSA is going to issue pedigrees? So will it be only FCI approved titles? Considering that the FCI no longer recognises KNPV titles that would make it pretty dumb.


i really have no clue...I have emailed them to find out the skinny...

I asked if ds x (knpv dogs) are eligible, and what working organizations they recognize at this point...

I assume they want some registry first....UKC is still open...KNPV lines can still be registered..." I think"...

but in the end I dont see how that will help the stated goals of being recognized by the foreign parent club...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> So the WDSA is going to issue pedigrees? So will it be only FCI approved titles? Considering that the FCI no longer recognises KNPV titles that would make it pretty dumb.


My sentiments exactly sir


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I sent an email a year or so ago, never heard back, doesnt look like they actually do anything


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> As the AKC doesnt recognise the DS


And I hope they continue not recognizing it


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> So the WDSA is going to issue pedigrees? So will it be only FCI approved titles? Considering that the FCI no longer recognises KNPV titles that would make it pretty dumb.



Chris,

I haven't heard anything about issuing pedigrees and doubt if the WDSA will. A registry maybe? What you can do now is compete with a Dutch Shepherd team at the AWDF Team Championship. My boy is doing Mondio and not IPO but it will be nice to watch Dutchies at the AWDF Chamionship.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> I haven't heard anything about issuing pedigrees and doubt if the WDSA will. A registry maybe? What you can do now is compete with a Dutch Shepherd team at the AWDF Team Championship. My boy is doing Mondio and not IPO but it will be nice to watch Dutchies at the AWDF Chamionship.


That I can agree too with watching DS at championships here in the USA;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Thomas...you are member...do you know what working organizations are recognized thus far? truly curious...I can get papers tomorrow if I had a reason..


Joby,

I'm not sure I understand the question?
Do you mean what organizations recognize WDSA or What organizations WDSA recognizes?
As a AWDF member WDSA is "recognized" by all the other members and visa versa
If you're asking about Registries (AKC UKC FCI etc) don't know, don't care ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm at the point where more energy should be generated toward working venues that have nothing to do with breed registries. I'm still not sure what the rules are for competing but if the dog can get in without a pedigree/registration and they label it a mix, who cares what they want to call it.


Terrasita


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> I haven't heard anything about issuing pedigrees and doubt if the WDSA will. A registry maybe? What you can do now is compete with a Dutch Shepherd team at the AWDF Team Championship. My boy is doing Mondio and not IPO but it will be nice to watch Dutchies at the AWDF Chamionship.


I agree that a pathway to the AWDF and even the FCI is great, for the small amount of Dutchies that have an FCI pedigree. I guess even the Mondio Worlds would be an option for the FCI Dutchies in the US now, not that many would be capable. Im all for that. My main thought would be if the organisation will get anywhere when 99% of the Dutch Shepherds in the USA have no pedigree at all, and if they do its not recognised by the FCI, and so it really offers those owners and dogs nothing to them. 
Its also not an putdown of the work done by Les, rather its the weird position the Dutch Shepherd finds itself in being a dog that excells outside of the kennel club system.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Dutch Shepherd what it is because of lack of interest in a registry? And thereby breeding fitness for the work is really the only criteria. 

My heart kinda sank when I found out they decided to join the FCI.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Randy Allen said:


> My heart kinda sank when I found out they decided to join the FCI.


Your hearts been sunk for a long time then.



> They'll do what they do but in the end it wont mean shit to a fly on a fence post playing on his nintendo.


Courtesy of H.Gaines esq


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I thought they had only decided to join the FCI about 2 years ago. Hmmmm, give or take.

Am I wrong?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sorry, I think I misunderstood your post.


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