# Creasy learning focus under distraction



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

From March time frame, training escape bite and some distraction work simultaneously. What do you think?
http://youtu.be/vdzSX20Jm8I


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nice work. Do you command the escape or does decoy motion trigger the release?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks T. Both are used now per new rules. In the past it was decoy motion only.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I like it!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Awesome work and Nice team work!! How old is he now?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Bob n Brad. Creasy is 3 years old.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> From March time frame, training escape bite and some distraction work simultaneously. What do you think?
> http://youtu.be/vdzSX20Jm8I



I like your training and I like your dog! 

Good luck with him.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I like your training and I like your dog!
> 
> Good luck with him.


Thanks Tiago. We will need the luck as I plan to start trialling him this year!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You two look really good!


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> Thanks Tiago. We will need the luck as I plan to start trialling him this year!


Do you have a link for the pedigree of your dog? 

Interested in seeing him.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks for sharing, always nice to see variety in training. Her looks big and he still moves really quick. I'm not surprised after seeing his pedigree.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks for sharing, always nice to see variety in training. Her looks big and he still moves really quick. I'm not surprised after seeing his pedigree.


Typo: He looks big,not her.  Couldn't edit my previous post


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Susan and Oluwatobi. Tiago here is his pedigree (I need to update his pic!). You can also click on his name in my siggy if below linky no worky

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=719098-brimwylf-creasy


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> We will need the luck as I plan to start trialling him this year!


You guys look great. Do you prepare your dog's for a three prior to showing for their one? 

Just curious.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> Thanks Susan and Oluwatobi. Tiago here is his pedigree (I need to update his pic!). You can also click on his name in my siggy if below linky no worky
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=719098-brimwylf-creasy



Thank you.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> You guys look great. Do you prepare your dog's for a three prior to showing for their one?
> 
> Just curious.


Thanks Dave. The answer to your question, not 100% but close.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

You have a really nice dog and you have obviously put in a lot of good training time in. That looks really, really good. It will look even better if you relax on the secondary obedience. It looks like he is wound up and that's causing the whining to come to the surface and the grip to slip a bit. Some judges will kill you for the whining. I'd show him some fun sessions with lots of biting and big reactions to his power. 

I know I'm nitpicking, but I also know you want to win. 8)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Where did the grip on the helper slip? I watched it a couple times and didn't see it.


Christopher Smith said:


> You have a really nice dog and you have obviously put in a lot of good training time in. That looks really, really good. It will look even better if you relax on the secondary obedience. It looks like he is wound up and that's causing the whining to come to the surface and the grip to slip a bit. Some judges will kill you for the whining. I'd show him some fun sessions with lots of biting and big reactions to his power.
> 
> I know I'm nitpicking, but I also know you want to win. 8)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Good luck when you do trial. I am sure your dedication and good training will pay off for you both!



Faisal Khan said:


> Thanks Dave. The answer to your question, not 100% but close.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Dang Christopher 294 points! Just saw that, super huge congrats 8) Will take your advice. I have reduced reward to key exercises that I am focusing on so #ucker starts getting wound up when he expects release but I keep him tied. It has helped build up duration and improve areas that get him the reward, it is a fine line as you say.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Absolutely a fine line. I totally get what you are doing. I'm sure you can buff it out for trial day.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

such awesome precision and focus! you guys look amazing!!


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Looks great Faisal.
Just curious about your reward with the ball while the decoy is in the picture. I have always seen focus in the presence of the decoy rewarded with a bite. Whats the method to your madness ?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> Looks great Faisal.
> Just curious about your reward with the ball while the decoy is in the picture. I have always seen focus in the presence of the decoy rewarded with a bite. Whats the method to your madness ?


Thanks Haz. I reward with bite on helper plus I also reward from me during bitework. If reward comes from helper 100% then dog looses engagement with handler as handler means $hit and only way to control dog now is with heavy handed prong or electric. Too much reward from handler and helper becomes lower in value. Just a tool that can be used to adjust engagement levels real time as needed


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Ahh makes sense, what happens if when you mark / pop the ball and he heads for the decoy instead?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> Ahh makes sense, what happens if when you mark / pop the ball and he heads for the decoy instead?


No bite from decoy unless I send. Now you will ask what if dog circles bites the decoy anyway? That means I will need to take a step back in training and improve my control before attempting that exercise again. Remember this is all off leash.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

That makes sense  thanks.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

impressive control ,,, and a really nice looking dog. I like your method too... keep up the good work brother!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> impressive control ,,, and a really nice looking dog. I like your method too... keep up the good work brother!


Thanks Brian.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Catherine Gervin said:


> such awesome precision and focus! you guys look amazing!!


Catherine, you are being too kind! We are just another dog/handler team.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Thanks Haz. I reward with bite on helper plus I also reward from me during bitework. If reward comes from helper 100% then dog looses engagement with handler as handler means $hit and only way to control dog now is with heavy handed prong or electric. Too much reward from handler and helper becomes lower in value. Just a tool that can be used to adjust engagement levels real time as needed



+1


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

+2. Was hoping you would expound on the value of reward through the handler.

T


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> +2. Was hoping you would expound on the value of reward through the handler.
> 
> T


^ is the key to whole thing! When the dog realizes that the handler is actually more valuable than the reward.... BAM!! Its on!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

This thread has taken an interesting turn. Are you guys saying that the best way to get control of the dog is by the handler rewarding the dog? Is that the only way without using strong compulsion? Does that method have a downside?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

compulsion teaching control? lost me on that one ..


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm also wondering here.

I cannot see where the reward would be warranted.

When we first started with the young dog after the Hold and Bark, i.e. laid down waiting for the helper to spring away. When the dog jumped to bite, we always, at first, praised it, because he was biting without command and this was to reassure him that his performance was good.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> compulsion teaching control? lost me on that one ..


You touch something that your mother said not to touch and she smacks you. Are the chances of you touching it again increased, decreased or the same?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

And Brian I didn't say anything about teaching.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> This thread has taken an interesting turn. Are you guys saying that the best way to get control of the dog is by the handler rewarding the dog? Is that the only way without using strong compulsion? Does that method have a downside?


There are many ways to skin the kitty. I like the reward by handler and helper combination as it builds engagement with handler which in turn translates into distraction proofing without using heavy corrections. 

So in the end the drive state remains high and you get to keep a lot of corrections in the bank for use when really needed. Another advantage is that the handler now has a tool that can be used real time to adjust the target of dog's focus (more towards the handler or more towards the helper).


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

What's the downside Faisal?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> What's the downside Faisal?


Dunno man, I only believe in results so will know in a year if we achieve our goal or not.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> And Brian I didn't say anything about teaching.


that's what happens when I'm trying to read, train dogs, argue with the wife and eat a sandwich all at the same time... My bad...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> that's what happens when I'm trying to read, train dogs, argue with the wife and eat a sandwich all at the same time... My bad...


You mean you don't drop everything when my post pop up? You're missing some good stuff!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher, what do you believe the down side is? 
Honest question.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Christopher, what do you believe the down side is?
> Honest question.


I think it takes the dog out of a protection mood. I believe that the proper mood is emotional for the dog and the dog can't change his emotional state that quickly from protection to play. How do you go from a fight to a chess game? So most dogs will simply start to play in protection. Then many people want to regain the protection mood by making frustration and stress. And by doing that they tend loose a lot of the control. 

But many people like the play-protection, or can't tell the difference. And those dogs can still when periodically. So to each his own.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

When you teach your dog to guard, when do you let him bite?
A. WheN his guard looks like you want it to? 
B. When it looks nothing like you want it to? 
C. how his guard looks has no bearing on when you let him bite?




Christopher Smith said:


> I think it takes the dog out of a protection mood. I believe that the proper mood is emotional for the dog and the dog can't change his emotional state that quickly from protection to play. How do you go from a fight to a chess game? So most dogs will simply start to play in protection. Then many people want to regain the protection mood by making frustration and stress. And by doing that they tend loose a lot of the control.
> 
> But many people like the play-protection, or can't tell the difference. And those dogs can still when periodically. So to each his own.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> How do you go from a fight to a chess game?.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK5TQSKmS3o


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> When you teach your dog to guard, when do you let him bite?
> A. WheN his guard looks like you want it to?
> B. When it looks nothing like you want it to?
> C. how his guard looks has no bearing on when you let him bite?


D. None of the above.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

John Wolf said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK5TQSKmS3o


That is hilarious!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

John Wolf said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK5TQSKmS3o


holy shit LOL thanks for sharing..


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> You mean you don't drop everything when my post pop up? You're missing some good stuff!


hell Chris Im not smart enough to figure out how to have a post pop up LOL dude im old school ,,, I still go and look at the webpage on the damn phone HAHAHA ....tapacrap is to unstable for me! OR Im to unstable for it (most likely the best answer) LOL


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think it takes the dog out of a protection mood. I believe that the proper mood is emotional for the dog and the dog can't change his emotional state that quickly from protection to play. How do you go from a fight to a chess game? So most dogs will simply start to play in protection. Then many people want to regain the protection mood by making frustration and stress. And by doing that they tend loose a lot of the control.
> 
> But many people like the play-protection, or can't tell the difference. And those dogs can still when periodically. So to each his own.


No issues if dog is strong and solid.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> D. None of the above.


You never let him bite out of the guard?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> You never let him bite out of the guard?


Sometimes, but that's not how I "teach the guard".


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I always tune in when you post.

It's tidbits like this I like the best.



Christopher Smith said:


> Sometimes, but that's not how I "teach the guard".


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Yeah, I enjoy our little exchanges too. But I think we could enjoy them even more if you would ask questions without assumtions and preconceived ideas. See Bob's question above if you need a basic outline.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You are more than welcome to explain your training. I would welcome what sounds like a different approach to training that yielded you great results. My notions are mine and of course they are preconceived through my experiences...right or wrong. If I didn't have any experience, I wouldn't have any notions. Telling me how to ask a question is just arrogant, though and silly. Your scores in ipo are a result of your hard work and people other than you helping you and nothing to be arrogant about. Be proud of your accomplishments, not arrogant. Share the knowledge if you care about your sport. Or dont. 

Honest advice. 

Did I get the format right?



Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah, I enjoy our little exchanges too. But I think we could enjoy them even more if you would ask questions without assumtions and preconceived ideas. See Bob's question above if you need a basic outline.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> No issues if dog is strong and solid.


Agreed. It keeps the handler in the dog's head while he is in that drive state or mood. For the dog that desires engagement, it doesn't change that especially if that engagement/mood is rewarded. Dog in it for his handler is just as strong as dog in it for himself.


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## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

*I was imoressed by the handler's control of the pup and the dog's focus despite ongoing distraction.
I have zero experience with the sport the pup is being trained for so I can't comment on the pup's performance in regards to the sport. 

Wayne M. Scace
*


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thats one big puppy .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I think it takes the dog out of a protection mood. I believe that the proper mood is emotional for the dog and the dog can't change his emotional state that quickly from protection to play. How do you go from a fight to a chess game? So most dogs will simply start to play in protection. Then many people want to regain the protection mood by making frustration and stress. And by doing that they tend loose a lot of the control.
> 
> But many people like the play-protection, or can't tell the difference. And those dogs can still when periodically. So to each his own.



Wouldn't that depend on the character of the dog and the helper work?

Many, not all dogs go back and forth between prey and protection during bite work. IF the dog is clear in the head with the right handler and helper why wouldn't the prey/protection be a very controllable behaviors?

The dog should never see the handler as an opponent and should never see the helper as a friend/partner. "To me" that's all about the character of the dog and the helper work.

Yes there are dog that can only work in fight and many more that only work in prey. That's training and character in both dogs. 
A total prey dog can also be just as serious in prey with a opponent. They would happily continue to do damage even if the victim give a serious fight.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> You are more than welcome to explain your training. I would welcome what sounds like a different approach to training that yielded you great results. My notions are mine and of course they are preconceived through my experiences...right or wrong. If I didn't have any experience, I wouldn't have any notions. Telling me how to ask a question is just arrogant, though and silly. Your scores in ipo are a result of your hard work and people other than you helping you and nothing to be arrogant about. Be proud of your accomplishments, not arrogant. Share the knowledge if you care about your sport. Or dont.
> 
> Honest advice.
> 
> Did I get the format right?


Yes Dave I have great support from my training partners and I did put in a ton of hard work. But if you think that's all it takes to get good scores you are living in some type of delusional fantasy. And that's cool. We all tend to do this when things are beyond our comprehension. 

I find your accusations of arrogance hilarious. You, a guy that has NEVER trained an IPO dog in your life, is going to tell me how to do it or how I'm doing it wrong and I'm arrogant? Ok.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Agreed. It keeps the handler in the dog's head while he is in that drive state or mood. For the dog that desires engagement, it doesn't change that especially if that engagement/mood is rewarded. Dog in it for his handler is just as strong as dog in it for himself.


Ok, if you say so.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Wouldn't that depend on the character of the dog and the helper work?
> 
> Many, not all dogs go back and forth between prey and protection during bite work. IF the dog is clear in the head with the right handler and helper why wouldn't the prey/protection be a very controllable behaviors?
> 
> ...


The character of the dog doesn't matter very much. I think the dogs don't even "see" the helper as much after a lot of this type of training. I think dogs with weaker character are the ones that do the best with this type of training. It makes them more comfortable with the protection phase because it becomes an overall game. 

I don't really understand your second question. But what I can say is that what I am talking about is mood not drives. Dogs come into the right mood many different ways and reasons. And I have a new policy, I only discuss drives with trainers I know well or we are discussing a dog right in front of us. Doing otherwise always turns into clusterF on these forums. 

And your last paragraph goes into prey drive. I'm not talking about dogs using prey. I'm talking about PLAY. And there is a huge difference between the two, IMO.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I never said you are doing it wrong. I pointed out you are welcome to explain. You are arrogant and silly when you tell someone how to ask a question. Put up or shut up. Explain how you train the guard or move on.

I haven't trained an IPO dog yet and may never. If that is your basis for who you answer questions. That is also arrogant and silly. Who more to need your opinion than someone who has never done it... You should go to the Schutzhund only forum?



Christopher Smith said:


> Yes Dave I have great support from my training partners and I did put in a ton of hard work. But if you think that's all it takes to get good scores you are living in some type of delusional fantasy. And that's cool. We all tend to do this when things are beyond our comprehension.
> 
> I find your accusations of arrogance hilarious. You, a guy that has NEVER trained an IPO dog in your life, is going to tell me how to do it or how I'm doing it wrong and I'm arrogant? Ok.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Faisal. My apologies. I still think you and your dog look great. I do hope you meet your goals in training and trialing. Sorry to take your thread off track!!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I think you 2 need to kiss and make up  Chris, when do you plan to show your dog for a 3? how old is he? any big competitions lined up?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> The character of the dog doesn't matter very much. I think the dogs don't even "see" the helper as much after a lot of this type of training. I think dogs with weaker character are the ones that do the best with this type of training. It makes them more comfortable with the protection phase because it becomes an overall game.
> 
> I don't really understand your second question. But what I can say is that what I am talking about is mood not drives. Dogs come into the right mood many different ways and reasons. And I have a new policy, I only discuss drives with trainers I know well or we are discussing a dog right in front of us. Doing otherwise always turns into clusterF on these forums.
> 
> And your last paragraph goes into prey drive. I'm not talking about dogs using prey. I'm talking about PLAY. And there is a huge difference between the two, IMO.


Chris, you opinion is appreciated and due respect to your training skills. 
We will agree on some issues and not so much on others but that's what the forum is all about. 
The subject of drives/dog behavior is often a subject that any two people will disagree about.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Hey! It wouldn't be dog training if there wasn't some arrogance, assholery and delusional statements LOL ... I trained a dog to a BH ... but to me thats like saying I can drive a NASCAR after climbing out of a go cart at the local kiddie track :roll: So I wont comment on the specifics other than to say the dog looked good to me and the control was nice. I love seeing GSD's working doing anything .. I like the approach , I use a lot of the same stuff myself.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

What stood out to me was the bite on the escape. Kind of reminded me of Leon VD Staatmacht's escape bite vid. A pleasure to watch, really nice dog.


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