# Treadmill, jenny mill, slat mill



## Bob Scott

Just curious about how many use this equiptment. 
I know a lot of show dog people use the treadmill for basic conditioning.
The Jenny mill and slat mill are more for strength and endurance. 
What breeds do you use them for and why?
Any GSD, Mali or Dutchie folks use them?


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## James Downey

Bob Scott said:


> Just curious about how many use this equiptment.
> I know a lot of show dog people use the treadmill for basic conditioning.
> The Jenny mill and slat mill are more for strength and endurance.
> What breeds do you use them for and why?
> Any GSD, Mali or Dutchie folks use them?


 
I am looking into the Jenny's for winter exercise. The reason I want a Jenny is, the dog can run faster on it. A dog's body is set up not for long running endurance, like we are. They are more set-up to sprint for short distances....basically to catch prey. In the summer, I play ball on the flat ground, and do hill sprints for bites. But I do not do the long extended runs. I simply think...and this is my own conclusion. That dogs are not built to go for 30 minute jogs.


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## Gerry Grimwood

James Downey said:


> I am looking into the Jenny's for winter exercise. The reason I want a Jenny is, the dog can run faster on it. A dog's body is set up not for long running endurance, like we are. They are more set-up to sprint for short distances....basically to catch prey. In the summer, I play ball on the flat ground, and do hill sprints for bites. But I do not do the long extended runs. I simply think...and this is my own conclusion. That dogs are not built to go for 30 minute jogs.


A 30 minute jog is nothing for any dog in kind of condition, what's an AD in Sch..10-15 miles beside a bike ? granted they only have to do it once, but it must take an hour or so.

I run/jog with my dog for at least a half hour every day along with other things and I'm the one that's bagged, not the dog.

I don't think a mill is needed unless the owner is just lazy.


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## Tamara McIntosh

James Downey said:


> I am looking into the Jenny's for winter exercise. The reason I want a Jenny is, the dog can run faster on it. A dog's body is set up not for long running endurance, like we are. They are more set-up to sprint for short distances....basically to catch prey. In the summer, I play ball on the flat ground, and do hill sprints for bites. But I do not do the long extended runs. I simply think...and this is my own conclusion. That dogs are not built to go for 30 minute jogs.


I think my sibes would argue that point with you. Well maybe not... 30 minutes isn't very satisfying, 3 hrs decent, 5 hrs much better. Would vary between flat out and fast trot.

I didn't know anything about carpet mills, slat mills or jenny's before the conversation on here. I am not going to bother with an electric treamill now. For my puposes the muscle building of a carpet mill combined with flat out race time on a slat mill as well would work best. Now just to find those two things.. lol I have seen several used manual treadmills for sale recently, but pretty sure I am not going to find a slat mill anywhere. Altho... about 9 months ago I saw one on craigslist... but wondered what the hell it would be used for! drats!!!

Our winters up here are so bloody cold, that mill work would work wonders (a couple of weeks ago it was -56 C with the windchill in Cold Lake.... my dobie was incredibly unimpressed). He could come out of the winter ripped and utterly ready physically for trial season!

Tamara McIntosh


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## andreas broqvist

I have been thinking about getting one for a while. But I never had the mony over, I rather get a suit ore new sleeves, a new dog ore somthing like that for that kind of mony 
Buuut I do like them. I live in the city and I run and bike my dogs, But its aloot of runing on asphal/concret so it wuld be nice to juts be able to put them on a slat ore carpet mill for 15 minutes and then do the Ob rutine.

I am going to buy one soon, But Im not shore to withs I want, A slatmill is kidn of nicer, But is wery loud and the Carpet mil shuld bild more mucshel, And its way shepre.

A jenny mill I realy downt get. you nead to have it outside in a pretty big area. The dog runs in circels, I wuld just use a flirt pole insteda.


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## kristin tresidder

Bob Scott said:


> Just curious about how many use this equiptment.
> I know a lot of show dog people use the treadmill for basic conditioning.
> The Jenny mill and slat mill are more for strength and endurance.
> What breeds do you use them for and why?
> Any GSD, Mali or Dutchie folks use them?


i use treadmills for the stafs, but the dutchies are too tall to fit on them.


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## Jennifer Coulter

James Downey said:


> I am looking into the Jenny's for winter exercise. The reason I want a Jenny is, the dog can run faster on it. A dog's body is set up not for long running endurance, like we are. They are more set-up to sprint for short distances....basically to catch prey. In the summer, I play ball on the flat ground, and do hill sprints for bites. But I do not do the long extended runs. I simply think...and this is my own conclusion. That dogs are not built to go for 30 minute jogs.


I would vehemently disagree. I hope I NEVER have a dog that can't out run or walk me. If my dog could not do a 30 min jog, how would I expext him to search as similar speeds over MUCH more difficult terrain for longer periods of time?

If you are using the catching prey example, don't forget that our dogs ancestors have HUGE territories and in some seasons follow migratory prey over very long distances.

I will agree that most dogs should not be going at a full out run over very long distances, but they should be able to walk all day and more, and should be able to jog (trot) with a human for distances well over 30 min no problem. 

I stay away from the mills so far because my dog needs to work in all the weather that happpens so why wouldn't I exercise him in it? To build muscle there is plenty of terrain options out here too.

And finally if I could watch tv while my dog exercised, I would likely get fat. My dog gets me out even when I don't want to go](*,)

Now....talk to me when I have more than one dog that needs to be exercised seperately....then I will likely get of my high horse:-\" and might consider having the option of a mill to supplement what I am able to give them. Things like bikes (for humans) are a great way to get the dog moving with not to much effort on the human part though.


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## Timothy Stacy

Bob Scott said:


> Just curious about how many use this equiptment.
> I know a lot of show dog people use the treadmill for basic conditioning.
> The Jenny mill and slat mill are more for strength and endurance.
> What breeds do you use them for and why?
> Any GSD, Mali or Dutchie folks use them?



Bob I use one from dog trotter, especially in the wniter when it's super cold and icy. They do have to get use to it because they flat out sprint when they first get on it. You have to slow it down for them. The nice ones come with a hydraulic break. It would be nice to have a carpet mill too since it's more of a power type mill and mine is more for conditioning. Here is the link http://www.dogtrotter.net/ 
They are the best made ones I've seen, and for the added bonus Made in America


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## James Lechernich

Timothy Stacy said:


> Here is the link http://www.dogtrotter.net/
> They are the best made ones I've seen, and for the added bonus Made in America


They're wicked expensive but are without a doubt the best mills on the market and worth every penny. 



The handbrakes don't replace a good carpet mill but they allow you to adjust resistance and work your dog at various intensities during each session. This is where a solid conditioning program comes into play as opposed to just letting your dog walk/run on a mill for exercise. Nonetheless, the real beauty of Lummus mills is that they're available in different sizes so there's a model for dogs of every breed/size.


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## Timothy Stacy

James Lechernich said:


> They're wicked expensive but are without a doubt the best mills on the market and worth every penny.
> 
> .


They are definitely built to last a life time.


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## Anna Kasho

I don't use a treadmill, having dogs has made me more fit than I've been in a long time!  Walk, run, bike, go throw a ball, OB or bitework, do something fun outside in any weather. I already have a bike, and it was cheaper for me to buy good rain gear than a treadmill. Holy crap those things get expensive!

I do wish there was someplace close by to swim my dogs, though. I'd LOVE to have a pool!


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## Anne Jones

I have had a jog a dog treadnmill for a couple of years now.

http://www.jogadog.com/

I use it when the ground conditions are such that I can't run my dogs. We have been having alot of constant icey ground conditions in the winter(not snow, mostly ICE ) & very wet (swampy) springs/early summers that last few years here in CT. In the very swampy conditions, my female who only knows warp speed... will actually hydroplane on the grass & has hurt herself a couple of times doing this. I got tired of not being able to give my dogs the exercise that they need to stay fit & sane in these conditions. I won't run my dogs on blacktop. A treadmill is a great option to keep them in an exercise program & keep them happy & livable in the house during the bad weather.


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## James Downey

Well, I think the AD is a terrible, retarded exercise for a dog. To understand how a dog's Energy system is set up is important. Dogs bodies are not meant for long sustained exercise. they have few sweat glands, they have fur...and thier slow twitch muscles are not like ours. The slower twitch muscles are heavily concentrated in the muscles used for stability not pushing and pulling. They have massive amounts of fast twitch muscle in the muscles used for pushing and pulling. 

And every dog I have owned, after even as little 10 minutes of aerobic running start to straggle behind. Even after training for months to do so. Thier bodies do not have the capability to keep them cool enough. Very,very quickly the dogs lose the ability to keep up. Now in a dead sprint....I am a loser. but we have lots of sweat glands, massive amounts of slow twitch muscle and we are hairless...this is all designed to keep us moving for long periods of time.

Dogs also have massive amounts atp-creatine reserves. This is used in max effort exercise. What we only can sustain for 7-10 seconds (trying doing a max effort sprint...everything you got...you will start to drop off in speed after 10 seconds) dogs can maintain this for almost a minute. This is due to thier massive ATP-creatine reserves.

dog bodies are made to make efforts sprints for short bursts....or walk for long distances. thier is just not much in the in between.

The can preform the exercise. It's just not good for them.

since my exercise and my dogs have different needs. I train myself seperatly. I do not think that trying to have an intellgent approach makes me lazy. In fact, I am sure the 2 hours a day I am required to workout for my job keeps me in shape.

But what I want to do is train that ATP-creatine system, which when done covers the aerobic and anarobic energy systems. I basically want the dog to work intensely for short periods of time. Not moderatley for long periods of time. In humans training the ATP-creatine system has proven to be much more effective in physical training than areobic training, but yet still ehances the aerobic system. In fact marathon runners are finding out by running more sprints and doing less long runnning is making them faster at long running. And since the dogs energy system is geared more towards this...why not tailor the training to the dogs physical strong charcteristics. 

and in fact in the wild feral packs generally only travel about 3 miles a day walking...that's about an hour of walking or 30 minutes of jogging....that's spread out over 24 hours.


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## Timothy Stacy

Anna Kasho said:


> I don't use a treadmill, having dogs has made me more fit than I've been in a long time!  Walk, run, bike, go throw a ball, OB or bitework, do something fun outside in any weather. I already have a bike, and it was cheaper for me to buy good rain gear than a treadmill. Holy crap those things get expensive!
> 
> I do wish there was someplace close by to swim my dogs, though. I'd LOVE to have a pool!


Ice skates?


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## Jennifer Coulter

James,

I know that you and your wife are in the fitness trade and you have to be in good shape for your job. I totally get that you need to work out seperately from your dog. I often find myself telling people in my town NOT to mountain bike with their dogs. By that I mean downhill mountain biking for human pleasure/goals, as I don't think it is good for the animal at all.

When I mountain bike for for the dog's exercise I do it on logging roads or cross country trails, and I go at a speed that is much slower than I would go if I was without dog. I like to have him at a trotting speed. He is off leash and free to slow down or speed up. I do vary the speed some according to temps time available and so on. I like it to not always be the same.

You mentioned jogging, this may be where the confusion comes from. I can jog no problem with my dog and he does not show signs of lagging, but I generally jog with him off leash so he may stop to sniff something, sprint ahead and so on. I have jogged with dogs on leash for a half hr and more and not had an issue with the exception of an older dog.

Now YOU may be a "runner" and not a "jogger". Maybe that is why your dog lags. If I ******* run my dog behind a truck so he is running...not trotting, he will start to lag behind just as you say....not something I do often. 

My favorite is when I get to walk day long in the mountains with signifigant elevation gain/loss in the summer with my dog. I think that pace is very appropriate and builds stamina and is great for acclimatizing weather wise. He is off leash, free to speed up and slow down. When I get home he is still on his A game if there is a cat in the yard!

None of this moderate speed long distance stuff is instead of faster speed stuff. Admittadly I am luckier than most to get to bring my dog to work in the winter where I have options for outdoor workouts of various types/intensities even in the winter, though lots of what we do is on our days off too as we don't always have the time at work.

I agree one hundred percent that if you are an athlete, you will have to workout seperately from your dog to achieve your goals. Depending on your home life, work and so on, you may not have time to do both.

PS-sounds like those feral dogs are LAZY


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## Anna Kasho

Timothy Stacy said:


> Ice skates?


 I used to. But not much opportunity for that in a climate that never freezes. However, there are definitely advantages to living someplace warm. 

The dogs have seen snow exactly once, when it was artificialy made for a park party. They loved it, but I don't miss living in it one bit! :lol:


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## Tamara McIntosh

James Downey said:


> Well, I think the AD is a terrible, retarded exercise for a dog. To understand how a dog's Energy system is set up is important. Dogs bodies are not meant for long sustained exercise. they have few sweat glands, they have fur...and thier slow twitch muscles are not like ours. The slower twitch muscles are heavily concentrated in the muscles used for stability not pushing and pulling. They have massive amounts of fast twitch muscle in the muscles used for pushing and pulling.
> 
> And every dog I have owned, after even as little 10 minutes of aerobic running start to straggle behind. Even after training for months to do so. Thier bodies do not have the capability to keep them cool enough. Very,very quickly the dogs lose the ability to keep up. Now in a dead sprint....I am a loser. but we have lots of sweat glands, massive amounts of slow twitch muscle and we are hairless...this is all designed to keep us moving for long periods of time.
> 
> Dogs also have massive amounts atp-creatine reserves. This is used in max effort exercise. What we only can sustain for 7-10 seconds (trying doing a max effort sprint...everything you got...you will start to drop off in speed after 10 seconds) dogs can maintain this for almost a minute. This is due to thier massive ATP-creatine reserves.
> 
> dog bodies are made to make efforts sprints for short bursts....or walk for long distances. thier is just not much in the in between.
> 
> The can preform the exercise. It's just not good for them.
> 
> and in fact in the wild feral packs generally only travel about 3 miles a day walking...that's about an hour of walking or 30 minutes of jogging....that's spread out over 24 hours.


Well it is just about that time of year... maybe we should tell all the ididarod dogs that their bodies just aren't meant for that....uummm.. cause those dogs run all friggen day for 10 days straight... and probably most of the year before that running long distances in preparation.

I am not sure if you have ever been on the back of a dog sled.... but those dogs don't ever freakin walk, the first 3 miles is a flat out, no holds barred RUN!.... in fact there is no command to stop you just put a big damn spike in the ground so they have no choice but to stop! LOL. Many of them go extended distances routinely.

As for feral dogs... I think the reason for the short distances would be because of territory (protecting and maintaining) rather than related to excercise requirements.

Tamara McIntosh


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## James Downey

Tamara McIntosh said:


> Well it is just about that time of year... maybe we should tell all the ididarod dogs that their bodies just aren't meant for that....uummm.. cause those dogs run all friggen day for 10 days straight... and probably most of the year before that running long distances in preparation.
> 
> I am not sure if you have ever been on the back of a dog sled.... but those dogs don't ever freakin walk, the first 3 miles is a flat out, no holds barred RUN!.... in fact there is no command to stop you just put a big damn spike in the ground so they have no choice but to stop! LOL. Many of them go extended distances routinely.
> 
> As for feral dogs... I think the reason for the short distances would be because of territory (protecting and maintaining) rather than related to excercise requirements.
> 
> Tamara McIntosh


Yeah the idiatord....a race that is illegal in 38 states. Also a race that has been fatal to at least to 142 dogs. Some dying from external myopathy....that's the degradation of muscle and organs due to being overworked.


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## James Downey

And those are the dogs that died....How many have collapsed, or gotten some other terrible problem from being pushed that far. Also the climate up there is giving them some help to keep thier body cool.

How many dogs never even make it to the race?

I think the idiatrod is a wonderful example.


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## James Downey

Guy on the left trained using long aerobic runs....guy on the right, short, explosive max effort training.

Thier also is alot of evidence showing that long slow runs cause injury...due to the muscles that engaged during acceleration and decelaration are only used a few times...if more than once each. for a long slow run. But explosive movements, the muscles are engage multiple times.


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## Connie Sutherland

James Downey said:


> And those are the dogs that died....How many have collapsed, or gotten some other terrible problem from being pushed that far. Also the climate up there is giving them some help to keep thier body cool.
> 
> How many dogs never even make it to the race?
> 
> I think the idiatrod is a wonderful example.


No need to visit AR sites to read about it, either. The newspapers in Alaska, including the Anchorage Daily News, which cover the event like a blanket, can't somehow leave out this part. Sometimes it's talked up like: "and only one death each in '94 and '95!" but then six dogs will die and tick the average back up to three per race.... as mentioned, only the ones who die there. The ones who die training aren't part of the figures.

Big cash prizes.

I had never paid any attention to the race until I attended a dog rehab seminar where they used it as an example, with video, of one of the worst possible ways for a dog to be worked.


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## Jennifer Coulter

James Downey said:


> Guy on the left trained using long aerobic runs....guy on the right, short, explosive max effort training.
> 
> Thier also is alot of evidence showing that long slow runs cause injury...due to the muscles that engaged during acceleration and decelaration are only used a few times...if more than once each. for a long slow run. But explosive movements, the muscles are engage multiple times.


Well that would depend on what your goal was wouldn't it? If your goal is to do distance activities, you will suck pretty bad if you look like the guy on the right.

Likewise if you want to do sprints or sling ladies over your shoulder you wouldn't do well if you looked like the dude on the left.


If you expect a dog to work at a steady pace for a certain amount of time in certain types of conditions, you better train for it. I can train all day in the gym for skiing and do many things that my be helpful, but in the end I better be skiing too if that is my goal! 

I can't really beleive that you would say that it would be dangerous for people to jog with their dogs for a half hr, or to bike ride on trails at dog friendly speeds. I can see how mills could figure into a workout program for a dog that can't get that particular kind of activity outdoors I guess, but not to the exclusion of some reasonable distance work that helps acclimatize and train a dog for the real world if that is what it must function in.

I am not talking about running a sled dog until it dies.


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## Bob Scott

James Downey said:


> Guy on the left trained using long aerobic runs....guy on the right, short, explosive max effort training.
> 
> Thier also is alot of evidence showing that long slow runs cause injury...due to the muscles that engaged during acceleration and decelaration are only used a few times...if more than once each. for a long slow run. But explosive movements, the muscles are engage multiple times.


 
I think we are (probably) looking at two completely different muscle types. Long twitch on the left and short twitch on the right. 
I also don't think that a physically strong looking body is necessarily healthier. I doubt the distance runner could do the 100m at the same time as the sprinter and I doubt the sprinter could finish the marithon in any competative time. 
Even in similar body types (sight hounds for instance) the Whippet is know as the fastest pound for pound. The greyhound is the fastest at track distance. The Saluki has the most endurance and the Afghan is the fastest over rough ground.
It's all about the ability to use different training for different body types and different activities.


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## Lynn Cheffins

Bob Scott said:


> I think we are (probably) looking at two completely different muscle types. Long twitch on the left and short twitch on the right.
> I also don't think that a physically strong looking body is necessarily healthier. I doubt the distance runner could do the 100m at the same time as the sprinter and I doubt the sprinter could finish the marithon in any competative time.
> Even in similar body types (sight hounds for instance) the Whippet is know as the fastest pound for pound. The greyhound is the fastest at track distance. The Saluki has the most endurance and the Afghan is the fastest over rough ground.
> It's all about the ability to use different training for different body types and different activities.


Nice to see a post on this thread that is a little less PETA and a little more grounded in reality....=D>


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## James Lechernich

I'm going to leave the physiological design/evolution argument alone and just touch on why milling dogs is limited to 30 minutes or less. It has to do with the amount of work a dog is being asked to do at a given time. I don't know much about sled dogs, but correct me if I'm wrong about schutzhund's AD title. It's a distance of 12 miles at pace that's just under 10mph, right? A 30 minute mill workout can see a dog covering a distance of 10-20 miles at an equal or greater pace, with sprints of up to 40mph(breed specific). This is repeated up to 6 times a day(for a total of 2-3hrs), and I've even heard tell that certain conditioners have worked their dogs up to 8-10hrs a day at various intervals/intensities. Basically, a mill workout is double the distance in half the time.

Dogs are athletes and they can cover a lot of ground for an extended period of time without incident(or long term consequences), but when you're conditioning a dog versus giving them daily exercise(or going to work) you have to account for the level of physical stress you're subjecting a dog to when on the mill. It's beyond what we can reproduce ourselves(hand walking, running, biking, etc), which is why it's so easy to overwork a dog versus them being structurally unfit for endurance.


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## James Downey

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Nice to see a post on this thread that is a little less PETA and a little more grounded in reality....=D>


 
My post was not based on an ethical agenda...But simply what athletic training advances are being made in science. 

And Bob, what your looking at is not so much based on slow twitch and fast twitch muscle. What your looking at with the marathon runner who's over trained his muscles so much the body has gone into fat storing mode...But he most likely does not eat much fat. so his body is literally starving for it, and storing what ever little bit he gets. His body does gets many MPG so to speak on fat...how does his body do that? It burns potein, and since he cannot consume enough protein and digest it, his body steals it from his muscle...he literally uses muscles for energy. The sprinter, gets very low MPG on his fat....his body is a furnace when it comes to fat burn. He consumes more fat than you think he would, since his body uses Fat more effiencently he can afford to use the protein he eats for what it's made for....building muscle. I am not going to argue that the sprinter would have a hard time keeping up with the marathon runner...or vice versa. But what is the difference is it takes years to build muscle....and only weeks to build endurance. The sprinter with a little training could become competetive in a marathon. But it would take a long time for the marathon runner to build the muscle mass...and mass is necassary for power. I think functionally the sprinter could easily do a lot of other activities with very little training compared to the marathon runner. 

The outward signs of someones body, is not a hard and fast rule of thier ability or health. But it's an indication. If they were both firefighters running into a fire to save your family...who do you think would be more able to carry them out, move heavy objects, tow a hose, run up a ladder?

Maybe a little more explanation on the training program I am going to try. It's going to look like this.

I am going to build muscle mass first. I am going to do 6 weeks of heavy weight work for low reps. Trying to keep the time under tension long...so the muscles are breaking down quite a bit. Then when they repair they will be bigger. a little strength maybe gained, but not much. Just muscle will be built.

Then I will go to 4 weeks of strength....the weight will be a little less, and time under tension will be dropped. but the movement will be more explosive. giving the muscle some usefulness. 

Then moving on to power for 4 weeks....this will be functional movement. jumping, swimming, sprints, hill runs. taking the strength and turning into movement. lots of rest in between sets. and no mixing of activities...and once I see the dog losing form...we will stop. This is not about building strength, but taking the strength and turning it into correct movement.

Then we will move on to energy systems development. We will mix the activities together with very little rest. So an example would be a hill sprint, followed by a tire tow, to doing some jumps...that kind of thing...doing 3-5 rounds of 3-5 exercise in rapid succession completeting it as fast as possible..

Then when it warms back up we will focus more training for trials... doing 2 days a weeks of phyiscal training.

Then repeating the whole process next winter.

And long and slows are not the complete devil...Just when that's the only facet of training it can be dangerous.


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## James Lechernich

What about this guy? At 6'2 190lbs I think he could give that sprinter a run for his physiological money! :-\"


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## Bob Scott

That's Spec Ops. They don't count cause they ain't human! :grin::wink:
My nephew Tim is a Cpt USMC Spec Ops. Still holds State records for High school Cross country and has done a couple of those Ultra marithons. He's running mountain tops now in a far away place. 
He's built very similar to the guy in the pic. 
Betting "physiological money", I think the sprinter would piss his pants before the 100m was over running against that guy. :-D
I can't disagree about the "using muscle for energy " with the case with the pic first posted. They carb load and do all sorts of wierd crap just to survive.


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## James Lechernich

Tongue-in-cheek, Bob. If Downey's gonna use the oldest, most atrophied marathoner alive to prove a point then I must retort with an example that's at the opposite end of the spectrum. :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott

James Lechernich said:


> Tongue-in-cheek, Bob. If Downey's gonna use the oldest, most atrophied marathoner alive to prove a point then I must retort with an example that's at the opposite end of the spectrum. :mrgreen:


I'be betting that marathoner is only about 30 yrs old. :lol::lol::lol::wink:


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## James Lechernich

Bob Scott said:


> I'be betting that marathoner is only about 30 yrs old. :lol::lol::lol::wink:


There you go ruining another thread with logic, Bob!! [-X


Janne Holmén. Wikipedia says he's 33. Looks more like 83, imo.















He must've run all the Viking out of his body or something...


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## Nicole Stark

James Lechernich said:


> There you go ruining another thread with logic, Bob!! [-X
> 
> 
> Janne Holmén. Wikipedia says he's 33. Looks more like 83, imo.


WOW, really?? :-(


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## James Lechernich

Nicole Stark said:


> WOW, really?? :-(


As far as my google skills take me, yes. The shot of him in the side by side photo is him winning the 2002 European Championships. I don't think marathoning overshadows genetics, but it sure ain't helping this fella! :-({|=


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## Lynn Cheffins

James Downey said:


> My post was not based on an ethical agenda...But simply what athletic training advances are being made in science.
> 
> And Bob, what your looking at is not so much based on slow twitch and fast twitch muscle. What your looking at with the marathon runner who's over trained his muscles so much the body has gone into fat storing mode...But he most likely does not eat much fat. so his body is literally starving for it, and storing what ever little bit he gets. His body does gets many MPG so to speak on fat...how does his body do that? It burns potein, and since he cannot consume enough protein and digest it, his body steals it from his muscle...he literally uses muscles for energy. The sprinter, gets very low MPG on his fat....his body is a furnace when it comes to fat burn. He consumes more fat than you think he would, since his body uses Fat more effiencently he can afford to use the protein he eats for what it's made for....building muscle. I am not going to argue that the sprinter would have a hard time keeping up with the marathon runner...or vice versa. But what is the difference is it takes years to build muscle....and only weeks to build endurance. The sprinter with a little training could become competetive in a marathon. But it would take a long time for the marathon runner to build the muscle mass...and mass is necassary for power. I think functionally the sprinter could easily do a lot of other activities with very little training compared to the marathon runner.
> 
> The outward signs of someones body, is not a hard and fast rule of thier ability or health. But it's an indication. If they were both firefighters running into a fire to save your family...who do you think would be more able to carry them out, move heavy objects, tow a hose, run up a ladder?
> 
> Maybe a little more explanation on the training program I am going to try. It's going to look like this.
> 
> I am going to build muscle mass first. I am going to do 6 weeks of heavy weight work for low reps. Trying to keep the time under tension long...so the muscles are breaking down quite a bit. Then when they repair they will be bigger. a little strength maybe gained, but not much. Just muscle will be built.
> 
> Then I will go to 4 weeks of strength....the weight will be a little less, and time under tension will be dropped. but the movement will be more explosive. giving the muscle some usefulness.
> 
> Then moving on to power for 4 weeks....this will be functional movement. jumping, swimming, sprints, hill runs. taking the strength and turning into movement. lots of rest in between sets. and no mixing of activities...and once I see the dog losing form...we will stop. This is not about building strength, but taking the strength and turning it into correct movement.
> 
> Then we will move on to energy systems development. We will mix the activities together with very little rest. So an example would be a hill sprint, followed by a tire tow, to doing some jumps...that kind of thing...doing 3-5 rounds of 3-5 exercise in rapid succession completeting it as fast as possible..
> 
> Then when it warms back up we will focus more training for trials... doing 2 days a weeks of phyiscal training.
> 
> Then repeating the whole process next winter.
> 
> And long and slows are not the complete devil...Just when that's the only facet of training it can be dangerous.


I think you are making too many assumptions on others training and making too may comparisons of human to dog physiology - I think most dog sports make use of varied workouts. Most of the advances and studies in knowledge for dog physiology and nutrition have come from the sled dog sport side of things (Grandjean, Reynolds, Hinchcliff etc) Comparing human sprinters and marathoners to dog physiology doesn't really compute.
http://www.authorstream.com/Present...ualitycomp-science-technology-ppt-powerpoint/


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## Denise Picicci

I use a treadmill for my dogs since I have no yard and the winters in ILL are horrid. I only use it when it is VERY cold, I would much rather walk or run my dogs for exercise since it is better for both of us but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Denise


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## andreas broqvist

I wuld love a Slat mil just about now. -18 Degrec cellsius,freesing wind and snow


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## Connie Sutherland

Lynn Cheffins said:


> I think you are making too many assumptions on others training and making too may comparisons of human to dog physiology - I think most dog sports make use of varied workouts. Most of the advances and studies in knowledge for dog physiology and nutrition have come from the sled dog sport side of things (Grandjean, Reynolds, Hinchcliff etc) Comparing human sprinters and marathoners to dog physiology doesn't really compute.
> http://www.authorstream.com/Present...ualitycomp-science-technology-ppt-powerpoint/


It occurs to me that I posted based on a seminar from eight years ago, and that you would have not only better info but also first-hand experience. 

Anyway, it's a very interesting topic. Lynn, do you know what the course vets think or say about the Iditarod deaths?


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## Gerry Grimwood

There are only 2 long distance races, Iditarod and Yukon Quest that account for the majority of dog deaths in sleddog races. They both have substantial prize money involved especially the Iditarod which pays approx 20 grand for 13th place, the Yukon quest pays about that for second place.

There are dogs that have done these races many times and others that do it once and either die or can never race again.

If someone were to compare deaths in sleddogs compared to deaths in sport or police dogs, it would be apples and onions. Anyway, when you have livestock you will have deadstock no matter what you do with them.


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## Lynn Cheffins

I think if you take any population of over a thousand dogs over two weeks you are going to have some deaths. 
http://www.yukonquest.com/site/evolution-of-sled-dog-care/link_url;
http://www.iditarod.com/learn/vetcenter.html
http://www.isdra.org/
Because of concerns over dog deaths there has been increased veterinary scrutiny in recent years and dogs undergo bloodwork and ECGs before competing and are subject to vet checks at all checkpoints.

Most of the advances in dog care, nutrition, health concerns etc that have improved dog care in other racing formats are due to findings and studies of long distance race dogs.


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## James Downey

James Lechernich said:


> What about this guy? At 6'2 190lbs I think he could give that sprinter a run for his physiological money! :-\"


 
I bet he could....I also bet he did not train like the old man did.


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## James Downey

the proof is really in the competetion is it not? So we will see how it goes.


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## James Lechernich

James Downey said:


> I bet he could....I also bet he did not train like the old man did.


In what context? 




Just for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eltcS-qXr2k

Fast forward to the 3:15 mark.


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## James Downey

James Lechernich said:


> In what context?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eltcS-qXr2k
> 
> Fast forward to the 3:15 mark.


Who would have thunk it? Guess I was wrong.

I wonder why so many other endurance athletes look like shit.


http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitEndruance_AgainFaster_BMac.wmv

You know we can shoot holes in each others stories all day long. But the I cannot argue with what's coming out in science. I do not know if any of you are Personal trainers or have any exercise and nutrition education. But I do, and my wife is a yoda compared to me. 

All this new information is being recieved as if it were Galieo telling the world that we are not alone , or Columbus saying the world is round. But I tell you in ten years...like the vid says. Physical training will be changed drastically. And it won't be based in physique it will be based in perfomance. 

But if you think a good training program is running with your dog along side your bike for 5 miles....And it gets you in shape also=D> Well, go for it. Because I guantee you the only thing that will make a dog better at is running for 5 miles. 

Because like I said, the proof is in the performance.

Heres another comparison. 

If we could compare the performance benefits of running for a long stretch.

To doing something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekZYPGxQbno&feature=player_embedded


Who in the end will have the more able body.


And I do think there are difference between man and dog.... on a basic level, most of it works the same. Muscle gets worked, muscle grows, muscle gets worked too much, muscle gets injured.

But again we will see.


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## James Lechernich

James Downey said:


> Who would have thunk it? Guess I was wrong.
> 
> I wonder why so many other endurance athletes look like shit.


Genetics mainly, but also poor diet, lack of strength training, and a go-go-go mindset that doesn't allow for adequate recuperation and gains. I've known several endurance athletes who've competed on a national level that wouldn't stop training long enough to eat properly or allow injuries to heal. Their genetics/athleticism carried them through but they looked more like the old guy then Goggins, too. On the flip side, look at Maarten van der Weijden, the marathon swimmer who won the gold medal in Beijing, or the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico. Neither 'look like shit', imo.

But I agree with Lynn with respect to you making assumptions about training programs. Advancements in training, both dog and human alike, have been made and that will continue so long as time passes. The more we learn the better we become, yet there's no sport/activity that I know of that has abandoned the need for good old-fashioned hard work and logging many hours participating in the sport/activity at competitive levels. For endurance sports it comes down to logging the mileage appropriately, be it on 2 feet or 4. 

As for crossfit, you can talk about performance over physique and antiquated training methods all day long but we'll just have to wait and see what it becomes...and more importantly, produces, in ten years. Perhaps it becomes the standard fitness model across the board or perhaps it gets swept under the rug along with the other highly marketed fitness fads. I have my doubts but only time will tell.


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## Gerry Grimwood

James Downey said:


> But again we will see.


Damn Gymbos:lol: I'm guessin you're somewhere in your 30's, let us know how it's going in about 15 yrs.

I can't argue with your description of human endurance athletes, most look like cancer patients.


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## Lynda Myers

Didn't read all the posts but wanted to add that if you live in the great state of MO possession of a treadmill is very bad...as it is considered dogfighting paraphernalia. May not be a problem if you have a herder but it could spell trouble for one owning a bull breed. I would love to have one as well great way to burn off some energy.


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