# Malnurished Mal-Need Rehab Suggestions



## Debbie Skinner

I just picked up an owner return 13 month old Malinois male from LAX yesterday. :-( I had sold him to a trainer out of state at 8-9 weeks old. He was returned for the reason "not working temperament". He weighs only 46 lbs. His dam is an imported A'Tim daughter and sire is a Boscaille male that weighed 100lbs. I drove straight to the vet and for an exam and documentation. Vet reports: general appearance abnormal and musculoskeletal abnormal with loss of pigment of nose and weak in rear, thin, underweight, splayed feet, down in pasterns...

I have started him on Innova Evo and raw. I have never seen a Malinois with such splayed feet and so down on the pasterns. I've rehabilitated a lot of shelter and stray mals for rescue that have been thin. He has the sunken in head of a starved dog as well.

My concern is the feet and the vet staff suggested that it is caused by lack of good nutrient and also could be from being on concrete. It was suggested the pink nose is from plastic, lack of sunlight and/or nutrient. 

Any one have experience rehabilitating a dog that is so splay footed and feet so broken down? Vet said time and good food. I'm hoping his feet and pasturns with strengthen. His chest is very, very narrow and his legs are bowed in the rear like photos I've seen of "rickets". Any suggestion on a supplement. I hope at 13 months old he can come back from this. He seems very outgoing and loving <sigh>


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## Chris Michalek

what a ****ing shame!!!

I wish I could help in some way but I can't


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## todd pavlus

I had a shepherd like this once. Lots of good food, and gradual excercise did it for me. But she still had health problems later down the road that I would have attributed to early malnutrition. In the case of my dog, the owners would never take her out of the crate to go to bathroom, so obviously she would go in the crate....Their genius way to solve that was to stop feeding her...:evil:


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## Debbie Skinner

Some people should be culled  I hope his legs and feet strengthen. I know I can get weight on him as his appetite is good and the vet thought he mainly needed food. Just hope his feet will be strong enough to support his weight and muscle gain..


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

That is sad. 

I am guessing too much tight confinment, not enough good exercise or food. You are probably right about the concrete.

He might come back at least his pasterns may I doubt the splay feet will tighten (never have seen that). I think some good outdoor free time while he is getting some weight. Light running, playing, chasing etc. I would even consider putting him in with another dog/baby sitter play mate for a few hours a day. Some romping around the turn out. Just being dogs kind of thing.

Once he has picked up in his weight I think he could do some running in sand or soft dirt to help his pasterns. Slow and short distances at first then gradually increase if you think he is responding well.

Be sure to get before and after pics.


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## ann schnerre

julie ann, you beat me to it! as i was reading, i was thinking "sand-soft sand" may even help the splayed toes. just go slow at first of course to give muscles a chance to build up.

debbie-try doing a search on soft pasterns, i know mike schoonbrood had the problem w/his pups, and i know there were supplement suggestions there. and i know the pasterns corrected; however, their problem was more genetic. don't see that that'd make much dif overall.

the boy has a PRETTY face, even w/a pinkish nose kepp us updated on his progress would you please? i'll be esp interested in how his feet end up and what protocols you end up using for rehab.


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## Jason Moore

Don't know much about mals but have had dogs of some sort all my life. From my experience I would agree with what has been said. IMO I would let him do what he wants for a while. Feed him a good diet and let him run around your yard at his leasure maybe some light fetch games, play with another nonaggressive dog and see how he progresses. IMO you can't only think of the physical condition but the mental condition as well. Not only the stress this pet must have endured to get in this shape but he has obviously missed out on some much needed nutrition at a much needed time to help develope his mind. IMO that can play heavily on a pup growing up into a dog.


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## Anna Kasho

Damn, that is the most appalling condition mal I've ever seen. I used to worry when my mal weighed about the same, that he was too skinny. But he was always well proportioned, just on the small side. This poor pup, you can see by the size of the head and shoulders, was meant to be a much bigger dog.

I wonder how many more dogs this trainer is starving at this moment... :evil:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ok, the guy is a scumbag, and I hope he burns in hell. Having said that, I have seen dogs that are much worse, so bad that the ear cartilage is gone, as the body is consuming itself.

What we did was make soup with vitamins and whatever BS we could think of that was fattening, but could go into the soup, as too much food would give them the runs. I used one of the K9 supplement things and I cannot remember the name, but it had all kinds of vitamins and protein and what not to improve performance. 

It was real weak for about two weeks and went separate from the regular meal. this worked pretty dang well, and no runs. then we figured it was long enough, and we upped it to 3/4 what was recommended for a week, and then a couple of weeks later again and so forth.

No runs, which was what we were worried about, as when we first started feeding the dog, some sort of prick eared cross, more than two cups gave him the squirts. the supplement, bits of fat, and flintstones vitamins did him a lot of good.

Good luck, and get Dexter back soon. I have a little girl that will need a date someday. LOL


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## Bob Scott

Spread small meals out to 4-5 per day!
As Jeff said, "watch for squrits"!


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## ann schnerre

Bob Scott said:


> Spread small meals out to 4-5 per day!
> As Jeff said, "watch for squrits"![/quote/]
> 
> yes and yes! had a ******* come into the cllinic once (Rat), who'd not come back for 2 weeks after setting off after a ****--she LOVED me after the first 2 days on fluids (you may consider SQ Ringger's if he's really weak), cause every time i walked into the cage room, she knew she was getting some food--and i did feed her 4x/day initally.


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## Will Kline

What about adding some K9 Super Fuel to his diet? I really like what it does for my guy and he seems to really dig it! 

Are charges going to be pressed against the trainer? I mean you have the photos and the vet's report...:-k


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## Debbie Skinner

I found some puppy photos of him that I took of him before he was sold. Thanks eveyone. I'll look for super fuel. He's eating very well. Feeding tripe as well. He hasn't tried to chew on any of the leg bones yet. Hope he does as his teeth have plaque and the chewing will help condition his teeth and gums. I have taken a ton of photos of him on Tuesday afternoon after getting him from LAX. With his good attitude and appetite, I am hopeful..just concerned about the feet and possible permanent damage/weakness of feet and legs.

Dexter is trialing at the end of the month near Reims, France for his first French Ring III trial.


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## Guest

Will, thats my question...charges? I have seen this before with others and its just not right. I think the term "Trainer" is so misused these days!!


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## Candy Eggert

Jody Butler said:


> Will, thats my question...charges? I have seen this before with others and its just not right. I think the term "Trainer" is so misused these days!!


So is the term "human being"


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## Paul Fox

That is such a shame.

Those paws look just like my 16yr old shepherds looked like before she passed away but that was natural due to her arthritic condition and old age.

I am wondering if it is not down to muscle wastage on your dog like he has lost the spring in his paws.

Best of luck with what you are doing.


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## Connie Sutherland

Goooood advice here!

Just a third voice about do NOT let this dog get diarrhea. That's gonna mean starting as Bob says with small frequent meals, and I'd pull off fat and skin for a couple of days until I saw log poops, then slowly re-add it.

Walking on sand is going to do wonders, and also, oddly, an ortho vet told me once that swimming was good for almost all dog leg/pastern/feet issues.

I have seen/adopted worse, too, and I cannot wait to see this dog in good shape.


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## Connie Sutherland

P.S.

I would not risk mixing kibble and raw in a dog this run-down. If I had to give both, they'd be many hours apart.


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## Debbie Skinner

I will write a letter to the ASPCA in Chicago as a first step. I'm in SoCal. Suggestions on anything else? Yes, I have the vet report.


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## Chris Michalek

Debbie Skinner said:


> I will write a letter to the ASPCA in Chicago as a first step. I'm in SoCal. Suggestions on anything else? Yes, I have the vet report.



I think you should give out his address and we'll have a contest to see who on this forum has the hardest biting dog. To be fair, we'll strip the trainer naked and give him a 30yrd head start. It would be a shame is a dog snagged a tooth in his clothing. :twisted:


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## Debbie Skinner

Here's a link that the trainer put up  Yes, everyone should see him now!! 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2636474244/


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## Chris Michalek

this is the douche bag's training webite
http://www.teamdog.com/locations/the-chicago-team/

myspace
http://www.myspace.com/teamdog

YouTube Channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/BriceCavanaugh


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## leslie cassian

Any explanation from the trainer as to why or how the dog ended up in such bad condition? (aside from neglect and cruelty)

Good luck with him, I hope he turns around and gets the home he deserves.


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## Debbie Skinner

No. He just kept refusing to ship him back for months or to send photos of him.


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## Debbie Skinner

Sand is easy here as we have 5+ acres on a riverbed of sand! We have to bring in mulch and organic material for the training field and yard.


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## Debbie Skinner

More photos. I took these the day he arrived as well as the first ones posted. I just got them reduced and edited so I could post them here. Maybe these can give more of an idea of his condition.


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris Michalek said:


> this is the douche bag's training webite
> http://www.teamdog.com/locations/the-chicago-team/
> 
> myspace
> http://www.myspace.com/teamdog
> 
> YouTube Channel
> http://www.youtube.com/user/BriceCavanaugh


Thank you for posting this. That guy needs a little well-deserved notoriety.


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## Connie Sutherland

Debbie, can you post a description or video of how he walks?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Lets,......well those of us that know how, post the dogs pics on his sites and ask what the F U C K is up with this shit ???

Like the military can train a dog. LOL =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Erica Boling

Even in his current condition, you can tell he's such a beautiful boy! What a handsome face! I just don't understand how people can be so cruel! There's got to be a way to make this guy pay for what he's done. And he calls himself a trainer!?!?! 

Reading his website makes me want to puke!


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## Chris Michalek

he claims affiliation with these groups. Photos and letters should be sent there. Is he a member of this forum? A mod can check..... a guy like that needs to be banned from here if he is.


Professional Member, International Association of Canine Professionals #P-2054
American Kennel Club Canine Good Citizen Evaluator #9280
Board of Directors, Canine Political Action Corps
Board of Directors, National Tactical Police Dog Association
Member, American Dog Owners Association
Pet CPR Certified, American Red Cross


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I keep tellin people that all those certs mean **** all, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOO, you all think you know better.

Anyone that would waste time getting them...................whatever.


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## Chris Michalek

he's on face book

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Dog/30508272026

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-...2&id=706198519&hiq=brice,cavanaugh&ref=search

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Brice...avanaugh/47739458602?v=wall&viewas=1364717323


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## Debbie Skinner

I'll go and video him now. I've been calling the animal protection leagues in IL.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I found this.

http://www.tacticalcanine.com/about.htm


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## maggie fraser

Why buy a pup then confine and starve it? Was this pup given away for free? I don't get it at all!


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## Debbie Skinner

No, I sold him as a working puppy. But, no matter what the price, people can be cruel.


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## Lindsay Janes

Debbie Skinner said:


> No, I sold him as a working puppy. But, no matter what the price, people can be cruel.


Whether I got a free puppy or not, I treat it the same as I do with my other dogs not less or more. I can't believe someone would do something like that.


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## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Why buy a pup then confine and starve it? Was this pup given away for free? I don't get it at all!



probably because it was too much dog for him and he couldn't train it so he stashed it away.


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## Ryan Cole

I adopted a pup, that while by no means abused or neglected, had a minor version of some of the problems you've had here. 
Weak pasterns, splayed toes, ultra skinny, atrophied muscle. 
All caused by living all day in a kennel, we concluded.
We were having a hard time putting the weight on until going RAW.
All advice you've gotten is awesome, and it's what we did, and there's a ton of improvement.
Good nutrition, slowly working up the excercise, and a playmate really did the trick.
He gained 20 pounds in about 6 mo, and looks normal now. Feet still a little loose, but have definitely improved.

He's lucky to have gotten back to you in time.


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Like the military can train a dog. LOL =D> =D> =D> =D>



Oh please.

DFrost


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## Debbie Skinner

Drako - Day 3 - Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wwmKbdKZmQ


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## Chris Michalek

David Frost said:


> Oh please.
> 
> DFrost



He would know, isnt he a former Marine? Have you seen his dog? Puuuuleeeeze. :mrgreen:


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## Al Curbow

Take your time with nutrition and exersize. Definitely start doing his nails too, walking on nails like that has got to be a problem. What a total piece of shit the guy is..........

Comment on there facebook page, i did and Cris did


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## Debbie Skinner

I am taking time and he's getting 95% raw now. I will drummel his nails as they don't touch the ground because he is so flat footed right now. This is day 3 with us and I see more in his eyes now than when I picked him up.


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## steve davis

i rehabed a shepherd a few months ago that only weighed 55lbs when i got him....he was 28" tall and heavy bone..this dog would have looked healthy at a 100lbs. after i got him he gained 10lbs in one week even with good exercise. all of the dogs teeth had been broken also due to him chewing on kennels. this dog was a great dog, ball drive out the ass, natural deep hard grips, nerves of steel..i only wish i coulda kept him. its a shame how some dogs are treated.


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## Ryan Cole

Also, doesn't sound like this will be hard for you to do, but there will undoubtedly be some behavior issues caused by this that you will need to exercise saint-like patience to work on correcting.


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## Konnie Hein

I watched your video of him, Debbie, and he does look better after 3 days! A couple of years ago, I took in a Malinois in similar condition for a breeder friend of mine. The dog was returned to the breeder at 10 mos. of age due to "lack of drive." Lack of food was more like it! He looked very similar to your guy. It didn't take long to put weight on him, and his feet did improve (not perfect, but improved). His teeth were filthy when I got him and, with a raw diet, they cleaned up fast! He didn't lack drive either, just needed food in order to put forth the energy! I wish I had some good after pics, but I didn't take any before he went on to his new job. 

Here are the pics of him a day or so after I got him:
Side shot:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1300/623281197_ff14e6b793_b.jpg
Shot of teeth:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1277/623281233_72114b554c_b.jpg


p.s. I knew that must have been D'only in your video. I recognized his bark. He's a half brother (same sire) to my dog Juice and has the same "accent!"


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## Chris Michalek

The dog looks pretty well adjusted all things considered.


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## Mike Scheiber

I dropped brice a little note
To [email protected]
Subject heh mother ****er
Whats up with the abuse and starvation of the little mal pup you must be some piece of work. Speaking of work I doubt your ever going to get another client to ever speak to you with out kicking your stupid ass hell my guess is in a day or two people will be at your door willing to pay you money just to kick your stupid ass. Your home address is going to be plastered all over the internet your ****ed you may as well pack your shit now!!
HaHa my guess is someone is going to stop by and bend your dumb ass over and pack your shit for ya.
Mike


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## Bob Scott

Debbie Skinner said:


> Sand is easy here as we have 5+ acres on a riverbed of sand! We have to bring in mulch and organic material for the training field and yard.


 
Be sure it's soft sand!


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## Mike Scheiber

Mike Scheiber said:


> I dropped brice a little note
> To [email protected]
> Subject heh mother ****er
> Whats up with the abuse and starvation of the little mal pup you must be some piece of work. Speaking of work I doubt your ever going to get another client to ever speak to you with out kicking your stupid ass hell my guess is in a day or two people will be at your door willing to pay you money just to kick your stupid ass. Your home address is going to be plastered all over the internet your ****ed you may as well pack your shit now!!
> HaHa my guess is someone is going to stop by and bend your dumb ass over and pack your shit for ya.
> Mike


Brice replied with in minutes of me sending here it is
"Too bad you don't have all of the facts...the two independent veterinarians on this end that gave the health certificate prior to interstate transport would not have put their names on it (unless it were a conspiracy). Ask the breeder about the bad breeding, and the emails they sent acknowledging their err..".


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## Al Curbow

Why keep such a washout for a yr then?


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## Debbie Skinner

The error that the puppy didn't turn out to have extreme drive and meet all his expectations is this the reason Drako looks the way he does? Yes, I much prefer the Dexter and Master pups over Drako's litter, but that's no reason to starve and confine a pup.


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## Al Curbow

Debbie, did the guy at least call you? Why didn't he just give the pup back sooner?


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## Debbie Skinner

The health certificate was given by Pet Vet Animal Clinic, Dr Jerry McGraw, 11901 North Street, Huntley, IL 60142 (847)669-6635. I called the office yesterday afternoon, but wasn't able to talk to the vet. The woman on the phone gave me their email address and I emailed the photos of Drako and the name of my vet that did the physical exam on this end so they can talk "vet to vet". I also asked the question of whether this is the dog that he gave the exam to. The animal cruelty investigator has all the photos and information as well.


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## Debbie Skinner

He called a couple times yelling about how the pup wasn't working out and didn't have enough drive. Then he sold the dog supposedly. He would never send photos or tell me where he sold the dog. I did talk to a trainer that he took the puppy to a couple times for French Ring and he said at first the pup seemed ok and then lost interest. He said the guy has anger issues. At that point, combined with the yelling on the phone, I asked for the pup back and to refund his money. That's when he said the dog was sold. About a month ago, his wife emails and asks for a replacement puppy from the Blitz/Breeze litter. She says the dog is her pet. I asked for her to fly out with the dog (I'd pay for Drako travel) so I could see him and then she could meet Blitz, Breeze and the litter during the French Ring trial. That weekend Blitz was completing and Breeze was here with her owner. I said that way she/he could meet the owners of dogs from us as well. I say he/she as on email, I really don't know who was writing to me. The litter was 8 1/2 weeks old and a puppy could be brought back. She refused and was upset that I wanted to see Drako and said that wasn't part of the deal. Then she asked to send Drako back and get a refund. I said yes as long as my vet found the dog in good health (all in emails thank goodness). Our lawyer friend says we did everything correct.


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## Debbie Skinner

Health Exam from Studio City vet...about 30 minutes after I picked him up from LAX.


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## Chris Michalek

too bad brice doesn't live in AZ. Animal abuse is not tolerated and he would spend mandatory time in jail. Maybe there is something similar in IL. does anybody know?


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## Zakia Days

OMG!!! You can tell from his size at 8-9wks that he's supposed to be a behemoth.:grin: Lots of nutrition like everyone else has already suggested. Any indication of rickets and/or the weak pasterns are normally caused by calcium deficiency. You can purchase bone calcium or calcium phosphate in a large container. You should add calcium to the diet especially after extreme exercise. Also, I've read that too much protein is not good for a developing puppy. Be careful with the EVO ( I've only used the adult formula which I know is 42%; not good for growing pups). A good kibble with approx. 20%-25% protein and plenty of fat should be appropriate. Like everyone else has stated outdoor exercise and rehabilitation will do wonders. I too will be following the pups progress. Good luck with everything and I'll be one of those people posting on that guys website.


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## Al Curbow

I think the law won't care to much.


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## Chris Michalek

Al Curbow said:


> I think the law won't care to much.


You never know. A year ago, my neighbor was shooting paint balls at my dogs. I call the fuzz and they came out. If I wanted to press charges he would have been arrested. There is mandatory jail time for animal abuse. I just didn't have the heart to send a 50ish yr old man to jail who was standing there hyper-hyperventilating and blubbering away like little girl.

We agreed he would extend the block wall from 6ft high to 10ft high but he never did. The next he does something stupid I'm pressing charges.


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## Zakia Days

OMG!!! You can tell from his size at 8-9wks that he's supposed to be a behemoth.:grin: Lots of nutrition like everyone else has already suggested. Any indication of rickets and/or the weak pasterns are normally caused by calcium deficiency. You can purchase bone calcium or calcium phosphate in a large container. You should add calcium to the diet especially after extreme exercise. Also, I've read that too much protein is not good for a developing puppy. Be careful with the EVO ( I've only used the adult formula which I know is 42%; not good for growing pups). A good kibble with approx. 20%-25% protein and plenty of fat should be appropriate. I live with someone that used the Puppy Gold supplement and swears by it. Like everyone else has stated outdoor exercise and rehabilitation will do wonders. I too will be following the pups progress. Good luck with everything and I'll be one of those people posting on that guys website.:evil:


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## Anne Vaini

Zakia Days said:


> OMG!!! You can tell from his size at 8-9wks that he's supposed to be a behemoth.:grin: Lots of nutrition like everyone else has already suggested. Any indication of rickets and/or the weak pasterns are normally caused by calcium deficiency. You can purchase bone calcium or calcium phosphate in a large container. You should add calcium to the diet especially after extreme exercise. Also, I've read that too much protein is not good for a developing puppy. Be careful with the EVO ( I've only used the adult formula which I know is 42%; not good for growing pups). A good kibble with approx. 20%-25% protein and plenty of fat should be appropriate. I live with someone that used the Puppy Gold supplement and swears by it. Like everyone else has stated outdoor exercise and rehabilitation will do wonders. I too will be following the pups progress. Good luck with everything and I'll be one of those people posting on that guys website.:evil:


I disagree. Nutrition is about balance, and adding more of a single nutrient is a great way to throw it off.

I don't have a book in front of me, but I do remember that there is a different nutritional deficiency associated with splayed feet. Maybe Connie S will get a chance to look it up and post back before I will. 

Without knowing if a condition is reversible and if a nutritional supplement aids in reversing the condition, I think it is a poor idea to simply add in more of a nutrient there is WAS a deficiency in.

I have NEVER found information supporting your claim that "You should add calcium to the diet especially after extreme exercise." when researching diets for canine athletes. I am curious if Lynn Chffins has come across this statement. Because of this "more is better" attitude, there are more problems with nutritional excesses than deficiencies!

There is no implication that I can find of "excess" protein (that is, more than the nutritional requirement) being of detriment to a dog, unless it displaces other nutrients from the diet, or in the case of dogs with renal problems.

Please, please, do your homework and not just regurgitate what you've read!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Annie, relax already.

Can you show us the what HIS vet said ??


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## Debbie Skinner

I'll scan the health cert for travel. It's not a physical exam. No information


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## Debbie Skinner

Here is the scan of health certificate from IL vet.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have shipped out to other rescue organizations, and all that was needed was current shots. THe first time I did this, I was sure that we would have to keep the dog, as he was in poor condition, making your dog look healthy, but the vet checked the shot record, and his heart eyes and ears and off we went 40 dollars poorer.

I thought for sure that there would be a problem. The vet said no.

Makes sense if you think about it, the dog just has to NOT be sick, so it doesn't infest other animals. Poor physical condition is irrelevant on this form.

That is why his arguement about two vets checking off his being able to ship the dog is BS.


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## Beth Allen

Hi Debbie, I have worked with quite a few cases like this. As for food, I use and sell Evo for weight loss. Think Adkins diet. I like Cal. Nat. puppy for a high calorie per cup and it is simple. Pumpkin puree for no loose poo. A Prozyme type product. Ester C at level his gut can tolerate. And I would also add a glucosamine with MSM (MSM helps connective tissue's) Start slow.
Also did your vet do bloodwork? Make sure they checked also for Heartworm's. I doubt that he did any preventative or routine fecal check's. I would also add 1 packet of Knox Gelatine to his raw mix which is also good for connective issues. Good luck to both of you, Beth


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## Debbie Skinner

Thanks for the advice. I have him on almost 100% raw diet now (day 4 of rehab). Do you recommend the kibble over raw? His stool is solid. He's chewing on bones like crazy and his teeth are already looking healthier.

I'm taking him back to the same vet on June 4th for a recheck and can ask about the blood panel. I have an appointment then for ear crops (beaucerons).


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I like Beth's protocol. Too much protein actually can cause weak pasterns. Seen it time and time again in GSDs. I also in the past switched a dog to raw and watched his pasterns go down. Had to add a carbohydrate. I feed California Natural Chicken and have a few on Taste of the Wild. I much prefer Natura products over Diamond but Taste of the Wild had a lower protein [salmon] that I could put the bouv on which better controlled his weight. I'm not wild about adding calcium because you have to have the calcium/phosphorus ratio just right. I think part of Belfield's Vit C research had to do with rickets cases. Read it all too long ago to remember so I'd go with the Ester C and would add the fish oil caps as well. Years ago GSD people used t use a product called Clovite for feet/pasterns, etc. Don't know if its still on the market and it was a horse product I think.

Food/supplements can be like religion. I'm sure he thinks he's landed in heaven and what you're doing will greatly improve him regardless.

Terrasita


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## Beth Allen

Hi Debbie, keep an eye on him and do what your first instinct is for him personally. Just sometimes if it is just straight raw without rotation thing's start to be off balance. The C. Nat pup is going to add weight faster with out the protein level. Let his body be the judge. Keep an eye on the space in between the toes. As someone else stated earlier small feeding's work better. You can not force his little stressed system. The tripe is great also. Egg's, but I feel with high proetein level's they still need some carb's to digest thing's. I feed raw also, but in some cases I do a basic food and add raw as a supplement and rotate what ever it is. I would say bloodwork ASAP. The photo's made me cry. If you need help please let me know, Beth


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## Debbie Skinner

Thanks. Yes, he makes me cry in person as his attitude is so good and he's happy. He has a good spirit. I'll be at the vet on Thursday and also can buy the Cal Natural Pup at Henco. Henco is a big pet supply warehouse and I have an account with them. Puppy Gold has been suggested to me as well. 

Tonight he's getting some raw heart, liver, lungs (beef). I raise chickens and have organic eggs. I could toss a couple in. I always give the dogs a beef leg as well to chew on. The butcher gives them to me with the hoof and hide still on.


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## Mo Earle

Debbie, I am so sorry your pup had to go through all of this,:-( he is so lucky you took him back- I agree that these groups need to see footage/photos of the condition he allowed this poor dog to get to.... He claims he is a trainer....he claims affiliation with these groups.IMO....Seems He needs to become affiliated with a jail house as a PRISONER ...due to animal neglect or cruelty!! Photos and letters definately should be sent to these affiliations-they can't fix what they do not know about-at least give them cause to investigate and hopefully ban this so call "trainer" .
Professional Member, International Association of Canine Professionals #P-2054
American Kennel Club Canine Good Citizen Evaluator #9280
Board of Directors, Canine Political Action Corps
Board of Directors, National Tactical Police Dog Association
Member, American Dog Owners Association
Pet CPR Certified, American Red Cross
I think I'll go to Facebook now and give him a piece of my mind!!


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## Tina Rempel

Debbie,

I hope all goes well with him. I would love to see his "trainer" locked in the crate for a few months. I have one I would donate for that cause. A small one.....


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## Ted Efthymiadis

Tina Rempel said:


> Debbie,
> 
> I hope all goes well with him. I would love to see his "trainer" locked in the crate for a few months. I have one I would donate for that cause. A small one.....



Here is what I think..... 
1st off, very few of you even know Brice, 
2nd, his side of the story is not being said at all.

I'm not saying he did not screw up, but you people only have half the story, so why are you saying he should burn in hell? I have got his side of the story as well, and his story is very much different then the one of the breeder. 

The dog was bought as a FR prospect for his wife, the dog was a washout, and should have been sent back right then and there. Period. He and his wife have since have been divorced, so the dog was not even with him from what he says. How about blaming his ex wife?

Once again, I don't know the 100% truth, but don't burn the guy on a stake until this matter is handled in court. If he is guilty, he will loose big-time, his business will go down the tubes. Keep an open mind until someone is proven guilty. 

Send my love to Drako, hope he's getting the care he needs.


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## Chris Michalek

it doesn't matter was his side of the story is. No decent individual would let a dog get like that. And let's say his ex did that to the dog, then why didn't HE do something about it when he got the dog back? The answer is, he didn't give a **** about anything other than himself and that makes him garbage in my book too. 

The dude is a douche bag and there is no getting around it.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis

Chris Michalek said:


> it doesn't matter was his side of the story is. No decent individual would let a dog get like that. And let's say his ex did that to the dog, then why didn't HE do something about it when he got the dog back? The answer is, he didn't give a **** about anything other than himself and that makes him garbage in my book too.
> 
> The dude is a douche bag and there is no getting around it.



I'm not saying he is guilty, or not guilty. 
What I am saying is you don't have all the facts.

If he was just some Joe Smo off the street, that would be one thing, but he's got hundreds of happy clients, at least ask his opinion on what happened and give him a chance to explain.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> I'm not saying he is guilty, or not guilty.
> What I am saying is you don't have all the facts.



Tim, all due respect, I don't need facts when I see the evidence. Wrong doing can't be defended.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis

Chris Michalek said:


> Tim, all due respect, I don't need facts when I see the evidence. Wrong doing can't be defended.



It's Ted not Tim, Christina.


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## Chris Michalek

Sorry Ted, I was just emailing a training bud named Tim. LOL

Sorry. But at least I didn't abuse a dog!


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## Tina Rempel

So where is he with his side of the story? I would like to hear it.


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## Ted Efthymiadis

Tina Rempel said:


> So where is he with his side of the story? I would like to hear it.


From what I understand, right now he has been urged not to reply until litigation is done, because it's a legal matter. His lawyer has told him not to do anything reguarding the posts for right now. 

Once again, I'm not sticking up for the guy by saying he is blameless in this, but I am saying his side needs to be told before you all nail him to a cross. This is a legal matter at this point and should be treated like such. 

Hows Drako coming along by the way?


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Brice left a message on Ron's cell on Thursday saying that "he" had taken the dog to 2 independent vets prior to shipping him and both say they "while he was little thin, he was an athlete" and said that he thought we would try to "pull" something like this when I had written the email to them prior to them shipping the dog saying I would return their purchase price if my vet found the dog to be in healthy and good condition physically. Brice called and left this message just after I emailed his wife Mary Ann saying my vet found the dog to be in abnormal condition when he did the physical exam, 30 minutes after I received Drako from LAX "Priority Parcel". BTW, the entire weight of crate and dog was 66 lbs.

Geeze, what a thing for me to expect, huh? We have saved the voice mail. 

This voice mail from Brice prompted me to call the vet who issued the H.C. that was on his crate to find out if Drako was the dog that he examed. I sent photos of Drako via email. I haven't heard back. The receptionist said the dog examed weighed 45 lbs. Drako weighed 47 lbs when I picked him up. I'm going to ask my vet on Tuesday to call the vet in person regarding this.

I talked to Mary Ann (his wife) on the phone about 1 month ago when there were Blitz/Breeze puppies available (listed on my web site). She emailed me saying she read about the litter and wanted a replacement puppy. She said on the phone to me that they were married then. She said they had Drako back. I asked for details of where he was and I asked for photos. I received nothing. Then later I asked them to come out and visit and bring Drako during the ring trial to meet us and the dogs and pups. .


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## Debbie Skinner

Yes, he threatened in the same voice mail "litigation" It's pretty bad that a person that treats Drako like that would then threaten to sue me for stating the facts. If it wasn't his fault wouldn't he say why the dog was in bad shape upfront? Why say that he's a little thin and an athlete? The condition of Drako is not ok and no sane person would agree with him. I'm trying to rehabilitate the dog is what I'm trying to do. I'm not pulling anything..not punches either. I hope he comes to California. I invite him to come out to Aguanga to a training session.


----------



## Mo Earle

_
".....I talked to Mary Ann (his wife) on the phone about 1 month ago when there were Blitz/Breeze puppies available (listed on my web site). She emailed me saying she read about the litter and wanted a replacement puppy."

_although none of my business, I can only hope you didn't send another puppy...to experience the same quality of care.:-&


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## Debbie Skinner

No, they do not have any of my dogs now. I requested they come and bring Drako to the French Ring trial this month hosted here at our field (I'd pay for Drako's travel) as I wanted to meet them and see Drako. I told them that I wanted to meet them, see Drako and for them to see the parents of the current litter and talk to owner/trainers of the dogs and their relatives. I most importantly wanted to see Drako. They declined and then the next thing was they were sending Drako back which they did on Tuesday.


----------



## Guest

Anyone I know who's even THINKING about dogs or dog training (from mutts and rescues on up) is getting this forwarded to them.

Including the entire volunteer mailing list at a very large humane society I volunteered at in the Chicago area.

Reading this Brice?

"Team dog" my ass. :lol:


----------



## Debbie Skinner

It looks like now we are going to get sued (according to Ted's post and Brice's voice mail to Ron). Can anyone recommend a dog loving lawyer?


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## Chris Michalek

Debbie Skinner said:


> It looks like now we are going to get sued (according to Ted's post and Brice's voice mail to Ron). Can anyone recommend a dog loving lawyer?


Sued for what? Selling a dog and then taking it back to stop abuse and imminent death?

Everybody who knows dogs understands that buying a puppy is a crap shoot even from the very best lines in the world. On top of that YOU can't guarantee that he's a good enough trainer to get a dog titled in Ring.

If he wanted a proven dog for ring sport then he needs to buy one that always has a FR1 or MR1 etc... nothing else is guaranteed. 

He'd better hope he doesn't get tossed in the big house for abuse and neglect. He most likely would if he lived in AZ.


----------



## Guest

That's not going to happen in Illinois...not if he's in chicago or the collar counties.

There was a full-blown dog fighting case in which the guy got 2 years in my area. And that was from a very pissed off judge.


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## Debbie Skinner

I have talked with an animal cruelty investigator and she opened a case file. I still wish he would come for a visit to SoCal. We have an open invitation for him here in Aguanga..


----------



## Debbie Skinner

_Sued for what? Selling a dog and then taking it back to stop abuse and imminent death?

_Brice's phone message said litigation toward the $1200 pup price + shipping cost to send the dog back. He didn't mention a dollar amount for dog food expense..imagine that!


----------



## Chris Michalek

Debbie Skinner said:


> _Sued for what? Selling a dog and then taking it back to stop abuse and imminent death?
> 
> _Brice's phone message said litigation toward the $1200 pup price + shipping cost to send the dog back. He didn't mention a dollar amount for dog food expense..imagine that!


What a ****ing screwball.

Maybe he should go back to petsmart so they can show him how to put food in a bowl.

He needs to read this


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

WOW, he wants his money back ??? Or is it that the threat of a lawsuit is gonna get you to slow down with the your an idiot stuff ???

Lets say the x wife or whatever did have the dog, why oh why, would you send the dog back looking like that ?? If you were BSing all along, why not get him some weight ??

Why sue you, why not sue the x wife.....if this were true.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

I took some photos this morning of Drako hanging in the play area with my female Beauceron "Bijou". He's getting better about walking around in the play area. We are on Day 5 of Rehabilitation now. He still wants to go "inside" the crates and Tiny Tykes Cabin in the play area. I keep calling him out of the crates and cabin and praising him for staying outdoors. Bijou is helping a lot as she's calm and mature and loves to lounge in the shade ) I've seen this before where dogs that have lived in crates become "crate bound". So far he has never offered to run. He trotted a few steps, but mainly walks. Within about 15 minutes of walking and playing with Bijou, he's very fatiqued. He didn't do the usual jumping and racing of a Malinois. He fatigues very quickly. He's a very happy boy though. I want to think that his feet are improving too. Maybe it's my optimism. His weight sure has in a short time and stools are still firm.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis

Debbie Skinner said:


> So far he has never offered to run. He trotted a few steps, but mainly walks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wwmKbdKZmQ

In the video you posted, he was running, and chasing horses....


----------



## Beth Allen

Hi Again Debbie,
The puppy would not be recovering so quickly if as he mentioned a "breeding issue. " It makes me angry and ill.
He is contradicting himself. Has he ever bred an AKC litter of any breed? AKC will also investigate issue's. 
I would suggest having people contact you in private. So no thred of slander issue's blow up.
Beth


----------



## Debbie Skinner

That our 5 month old puppy D'Only (Master/Saida son). You didn't watch the video very closely I guess. D'Only wasn't chasing horses, my mare chased him out of the field. D'Only does weigh about the same as Drako.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Good ideas. Thanks.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis

Debbie Skinner said:


> That our 5 month old puppy D'Only (Master/Saida son). You didn't watch the video very closely I guess. D'Only wasn't chasing horses, my mare chased him out of the field. D'Only does weigh about the same as Drako.


Ok I see, you are correct, I must say Drako is one happy dog, his tail was just waging away, good to see he is doing better. Hope he gets to chase some horses soon too


----------



## Konnie Hein

Oops...posted at the same time as Debbie and said the same thing.


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## Debbie Skinner

Ted, No way about the chasing horses part. My horses train my young dogs and teach them respect. I would never risk putting Drako loose with horses. D'Only was raised here on the ranch and being a "solo" puppy (a lit) he was exposed from the get go and is still today a bit spoiled.  He grew up with the filly and the cats as playmates...he had no other siblings.


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## Debbie Skinner

Ted, here's D'Only's page with photos and video. Being " the only puppy", he got quite a bit of photo coverage!  http://www.pawsnclaws.us/D'Only_ped.htm


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis

Debbie Skinner said:


> Ted, here's D'Only's page with photos and video. Being " the only puppy", he got quite a bit of photo coverage!  http://www.pawsnclaws.us/D'Only_ped.htm



http://www.pawsnclaws.us/mxs123108g.jpg

By far the best picture I have seen all day.


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## Al Curbow

Screw the going to pm crap, that horse left the barn. The guy is a piece of shit that neglected an animal, happens every single day to many animals. How much is he gonna sue for? LOL. This thread should keep going on till he responds, i'd love to hear it!


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## Bob Scott

Folks, if this is going to litigation I think it might be a good idea to back off for a bit. Never know how this kind of discussion could be used or abused!


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## Al Curbow

Typical. Mention litigation and people get scared, unless both parties are going to invest a lot of time and money nothing is going to happen. Think it's going to drag on for years over a 1,000 bucks? lol


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## Debbie Skinner

I'm not afraid. I'm taking Drako to the vet again on Thursday for a follow up.


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## Debbie Skinner

FYI, as you can see it's from Maryann (Brice's wife) @teamdog.com This is their business. They are supposedly divorced?

The AKC papers were returned to me on Drako's crate. They never even transferred him out of my name into their names, so I have no idea who they supposedly sold him to. I'll scan and put them up too.

Debbie

-----Original Message-----
From: Maryann Napolitano [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Pup Shipping

Itinerary: 
ORD is Chicago O'Hare, LAX Los Angeles

AA 2099 to LAX 725AM - 955AM


Drop Off Location -ORD Global Priority Shipping Center, Terminal 3 lower level near baggage 10
Drop Off Time - 6AM

Pick Up Location - LAX Global Priority Shipping Center, Terminal 4near baggage claim 4
Pick Up Time - 30 minutes after flight arrival

Directions to Facility: http://www.aacargo.com/shipping/facilities.jhtml


Best Regards,
American Airlines Pet Shipping Specialists

Reference Number: M05220833




-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Skinner [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 8:37 PM
To: Maryann Napolitano
Subject: RE: Pup Shipping

Yes, a flight that arrives into LAX at 9:55am would be fine for Tuesday, May 26. I still need to know the Airline and flight number or I won't know where to pick him up.

Sincerely,
Debbie Skinner


-----Original Message-----
From: Maryann Napolitano [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 8:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pup Shipping

Debbie I need to know if the flight that arrives in LAX at 9:55am will work for you I have not heard back from you on that? 

Maryann
Maryann Napolitano
Team Dog! 

----- Original Message -----
From: Debbie Skinner <[email protected]>
To: Maryann Napolitano
Sent: Fri May 22 11:30:20 2009
Subject: RE: Pup Shipping

I must receive the dog and my vet say that he is in good health and condition prior to the return of the puppy price. If the dog is found by the vet to be in bad health, diseased, mistreated, or abused by you, I will not refund. 

Sincerely,

Debbie Skinner

-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Skinner [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:24 AM
To: 'Maryann Napolitano'
Subject: RE: Pup Shipping

I will not pay for the shipping on him and so please do not try to send him cod as I cannot receive him unless you pay for the shipping. You still have not sent me any information on airlines or suggested flight times so I can try and schedule him in. Please let me know what flights you are looking at for Tuesday as soon as possible so that I see if it's possible to pick him up during the time I am in the Los Angeles area. Also, let me know what size of crate you will be flying him in as I will be in a mini-van with 5 puppy crates and also a large dog in a #500 going to the vet. My friend has also asked me to take her dog in the van and I have held off agreeing too as I was waiting to know whether you will be shipping your dog to me.

Sincerely,
Debbie Skinner

-----Original Message-----
From: Maryann Napolitano [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 10:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pup Shipping

Thanks for answering the first part, I'll get that info to you. And the second part of the email? Also, if we send him to you COD (which I already cleared with the airlines), that takes off the money returned! 
Thanks, Maryann
Maryann Napolitano
Team Dog! 

----- Original Message -----
From: Debbie Skinner <[email protected]>
To: Maryann Napolitano
Sent: Fri May 22 07:55:51 2009
Subject: RE: Pup Shipping

I will be in Los Angeles all morning of Tuesday, May 26th. I can pick him up at LAX if he arrives and is available prior to me leaving the Los Angeles area. A dog shipped cargo won't be ready to be picked up for approximately 1 hour after the flight arrival. 

Please send me the flight information that you are considering before shipping him so that I can let you know whether I am available to drive to the airport at that time. 

Debbie

-----Original Message-----
From: Maryann Napolitano [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 6:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Pup Shipping

Hello Debbie,

Just wondering if you are still going to be at LAX on Tue before 2pm for the pick up of Drako? Also when will we receive payment back on him?

Maryann 
Maryann Napolitano
Team Dog!


----------



## Debbie Skinner

On a side note, Tim Welch is in France competing with Avatar des Ombres Valeureux (Beauceron) at the National D'Elevage French Ring trial. He just texted me. He got 2nd place with a 360.25 and first place got 361.75! French Ring III level. He almost won the whole thing. Dexter is competing today too (my malinois), but I haven't heard how he did. This is his first FRIII trial.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Drako's AKC registration (scanned). Returned to me on his crate. No new owners listed and the last processing date by AKC was the 1st one when they issued the AKC registration in my name in August 2008 when he was just a puppy. According to AKC he was never sold to someone else. I signed the back of the form when he was sold to Brice Cavanough for transfer of ownership. No change of ownership was ever recorded.


----------



## leslie cassian

Given that Maryann was the one who shipped him and that Drako was supposed to be her dog, any explanation from her about his condition?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I'm temporarily coming out of sabbatical for a moment... :mrgreen: 

I've met this guy twice. He's always at the Canine Olympic Games down in Gray's Summit, MO at Purina Farms complete with lots of promotional material and a decked out van with his logo and all that jazz. We chatted for a bit about Mals and he was nice enough and did demos with his dogs on e-collars (had a real nice looking Dutchie, so I guess if they perform, they get fed?). However, it may not be a bad idea to let the organizers of the Canine Olympic Games about the outcome of this as I don't think they'd be thrilled... :-k


----------



## sandra sakalauskaite

I'd try to find something suitible for my dogs problem,but I think I have the same problem with my dogs legs but not so much.She makes a lots of jumps when she was a pup.so her legs are weak.I gave her Calci-delice,then food supplement Canvit chondro.We have so much exersises of swiming, but it doesn't help.I think that we have to try something on the sand.Please help to take good care of my dog.Now she is 11month old


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## Debbie Skinner

Thanks for the idea. I took Drako for a recheck today (day 10 of rehabilitation) with the same vet. He now weighs 53 lbs. and I have a written physical exam again for his records. I think a 6 lb gain is pretty good in 10 days. Vet noted a slight improvement in the pasterns.


----------



## ann schnerre

his pasterns look a "leetle" bit better in the vid--and i'm kinda OCD about pasterns (at least in GSD and horses). his toes/feet still look bad, IMO. his weight is MUCH better  

who's the guy doing the taping? his comments re under-developed chest are right on; most obvious to me at 1:13 and then again at 1:48+ in the video. 

keep up the documentation, let him try to sue you. HA.HA.HA. 

of course, if it comes to it, you DO live under the jurisdiction of the 9th circus court, right?

it is truly sad to see the pics of him as a young pup, then the video of a young dog who may be permanently handicapped due to his treatment (and i'll testify in court as to my personal opinion--as long as you fly me out. and NOT in a frickin' crate, BTW!!)

and sandra--start a new thread about your dog's issues. makes things much more efficient, and you'll get better info b/c ppl will respond only to those particular issues. plus, it avoids confusion


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Ron "hubby' did the videoing. I'll video him again today. I'm going to bring him up to watch training as friends are meeting here to work dogs around 8am. 

On Wednesday morning we actually played a bit of tug with him and he also bit the Belgian jambiere on the arm (basically a sleeve). He was quite enthusiastic with a good bite, but of course fatigued quickly.

He rode around with me and my friend in her mini-van in Los Angeles yesterday and we got him out at different locations and he seems very environmentally sound and loves people. 

My friend was with me when I went to LAX and picked him up and there for his first exam too. Yes, we have witnesseses and documentation from the get go. I don't want this to be done to another dog.

His sire: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/yelo_ped.htm

His dam: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/Pharrar_ped.htm


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Forgot to answer this one. No, no explanation. Just texts from her after she shipped him that "she misses him already" and "please let me know that he arrives safe".


----------



## sandra sakalauskaite

ann freier said:


> his pasterns look a "leetle" bit better in the vid--and i'm kinda OCD about pasterns (at least in GSD and horses). his toes/feet still look bad, IMO. his weight is MUCH better
> 
> who's the guy doing the taping? his comments re under-developed chest are right on; most obvious to me at 1:13 and then again at 1:48+ in the video.
> 
> keep up the documentation, let him try to sue you. HA.HA.HA.
> 
> of course, if it comes to it, you DO live under the jurisdiction of the 9th circus court, right?
> 
> it is truly sad to see the pics of him as a young pup, then the video of a young dog who may be permanently handicapped due to his treatment (and i'll testify in court as to my personal opinion--as long as you fly me out. and NOT in a frickin' crate, BTW!!)
> 
> and sandra--start a new thread about your dog's issues. makes things much more efficient, and you'll get better info b/c ppl will respond only to those particular issues. plus, it avoids confusion


Ann, sorry,but it is too hard for me to understand some things what all of you write.Can you explain what does it means -get better info b/c ppl -?Did I do good or wrong?Nothing helps to make the legs better.We go outside for 7 hours a day,we walk, swim,play.Thanks


----------



## ann schnerre

oh, i do apologize sandra!!

what i meant: please start a new thread about your dog's condition (in the "diet & health" section of the forum), because you'll get better information and feedback on your particular situation.

i'll contact one of the forum moderators to assist you in doing this if you need it--it should be an interesting discussion! but it needs it's own thread.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Ron just posted a small video of Drako taken on Friday, June 5 (Day 17 of rehabilitation). We worked Drako for just a short time and he did exceptionally well for a so called "wash out". 

One of the trainers videoed D'Only as well that day. D'Only is my 5 1/2 month old Master/Saida pup not to be confused with Drako who is 13 months old and being rehabilitated after being returned to me very rundown. They do weigh about the same.

We videoed again yesterday (Sunday), but we are on satellite and must wait a bit to upload again or we'll go over our bandwidth allotment. 

Drako's feet are improving and pasterns are stronger and he's steadliy gaining weight and muscle.

D’Only: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os8aioL-10I

Drako:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xgKVSdyD6w


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Well, shit. I think that you got him back in time. I would like to see a video of him going back and forth in fornt of the kennel like the first one. You really cannot see much of his feet or legs. He does look like a washout though. :roll:


----------



## Debbie Skinner

I'll have to take him down to the kennel and do that. Right now he's living by the club house on sand near our house. I first had him in a large play area at the kennel with Bijou (beauceron female), but it was too much space and he was getting foot sore as his pads weren't used to the sand. So I moved him to a smaller sand kennel by the field. When we were training he kept "asking" to be worked so I tried him. The friends that train here said yesterday that his feet look better and pasterns too. I t hink so, but I see him all the time so it's harder to judge. The vet said last Thursday that the pasterns were slightly better.

I'll make an "up and back" video again.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Sooo glad to see Drako doing better!!! 

And, I had to laugh when watching the video of D'only. He's just like his big brother, only thank goodness for my Master son being smaller!! D'only is a TANK! If D'only is anything like Juice, it only gets "worse!" :lol: 

Not to divert too much from the original topic of this thread, but don't you have another Master litter planned soon?


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Yes, Saida back to Master (same as D'Only) only thing different is this time the ultra sound shows at least 6 puppies (not a "lit" like before). This time I flew to Miami and Saida and Master got together "el natural" (April 15 & 16). The trick now will be to make sure they go to good homes that will care for them!

I filmed Drako just now playing with the tugs on the field with me and also gaiting on the road (Wilson Valley) next to our field. Ron will try to get it up asap. I hope we don't go over our Hughes Net (satellite) allotment.

Debbie


----------



## Anna Kasho

Wow, Drako almost looks like a new dog! Pretty dramatic progress for only 17 days. If you can't post video, can you post some pics? I'm really curious to see how much his legs and feet have improved. Can't tell in the video really, except right at the end he is walking a bit funny with his front paws when he has the sleeve to carry.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

We have to post an obedience video of EGaby (Blitz/Breeze 12 week female) first for friend in France (trainer of Dexter) that is getting her. It's just working for food and a tug not real obedience, but more imprinting. 

Depending how big it is then I'll get the Drako vids up today. We have one taken on Sunday during training and then we made another one about 1 hour ago working him on the field with tugs..just me having him retrieving and playing the 2 tug game..but, his game is to get both tugs in his mouth in true malinois fashion. Before the tugs and running on the field we videoed him on the pavement (the road beside our field). I think it shows his feet and gait well.

Yes, you are corrrect in that he moves "off" in the front still. I think there is improvement though.

Debbie


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis

Debbie Skinner said:


> Ron just posted a small video of Drako taken on Friday, June 5 (Day 17 of rehabilitation). We worked Drako for just a short time and he did exceptionally well for a so called "wash out".
> 
> One of the trainers videoed D'Only as well that day. D'Only is my 5 1/2 month old Master/Saida pup not to be confused with Drako who is 13 months old and being rehabilitated after being returned to me very rundown. They do weigh about the same.
> 
> We videoed again yesterday (Sunday), but we are on satellite and must wait a bit to upload again or we'll go over our bandwidth allotment.
> 
> Drako's feet are improving and pasterns are stronger and he's steadliy gaining weight and muscle.
> 
> D’Only:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os8aioL-10I
> 
> Drako:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xgKVSdyD6w


I'm really excited to see this, Darko looks really really good. 

I love that fact that he's working now too, a dog can't work if it's starving, awesome work Debbie and Drako!


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## Connie Sutherland

Anna Kasho said:


> Wow, Drako almost looks like a new dog! Pretty dramatic progress for only 17 days. ....


I'll say! Wonderful job, and I'm so glad you posted this.


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## Debbie Skinner

The video is up now that we took today. It shows him gaiting on the pavement and standing so you can see his feet and legs and then we are playing the 2 tug game on the field.

YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn77okOiix0


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## Konnie Hein

Oh wow, he does look better! Still obvious deformity, but the feet definitely seem to have a tighter form now. 

Does he seem to know any commands - like the basics of sit, down, etc. (things you would expect an "expert trainer" to teach a dog within a year's time)?


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## Anna Kasho

Nice! If that's the washout, I wonder what they'd expect from a really good pup.:roll: What is wrong with people! :evil: 


Still see the narrow chest and funny gait, but his pasterns have improved quite a bit, and he's walking more on the toes. Like you say, his nails are clicking now. Great job! He looks to be high energy and very happy to get out and play. I had to laugh at the two tugs in the mouth - posessive, much??


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## Bob Scott

Some of his high, short stepping gate could be comming from having shoulders that are a bit to straight. That would also explain a neck that looks a bit short. JMHO
Otherwise he's starting to look better.


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## Debbie Skinner

I haven't noticed any commands except that he knows the crate  He is picking up on heeling and I'm working a bit now on focus work. Doesn't seem to know position (sit, down, stand).


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## Debbie Skinner

Yes, his chest is very narrow and I don't think we can expect that to change. His front feet are still weak and pasterns are improved, but not good yet.


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## Anna Kasho

I wonder if swimming would help with the narrow chest. Free movement and water resistance can help develop muscles that they don't use as much while running and playing and stuff...


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## Mo Earle

how could they say this dog would not work,#-ojust looking at your video's you can see, it is a very good possibility that with the proper training and care he would have been awesome- and still after all he has been through,if not abuse, at least neglect, look at his desire to go for both an arm and leg sleeve....he is looking so much better, still thin, still looks flat footed, but even that doesn't seem to be bothering his drive now to go for the equipment...imagine if he was taken care of, what he would be doing now.....:-k it is good to see he is getting a second chance!


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## Eddie Guerra

Bob Scott said:


> Spread small meals out to 4-5 per day!
> As Jeff said, "watch for squrits"!


I just can't help but just want to beat the crap out of someone for letting that poor mal get in that condition. The only thing I have ever used that would put weight on a underweight Mal is a supplement called Mega-A-Cal. You can order this from www.thomasvetdrug.com. I have used this to bring my Mals weight back to normal after we found out he had contracted IBD from some bad food we had fed him when he was a pup. Good Luck.


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## Debbie Skinner

Bite work (jambiere) video - Only 2nd time - June 7, 2009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jLjliUw3Dw&feature=channel_page


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## Ted Efthymiadis

Debbie Skinner said:


> Bite work (jambiere) video - Only 2nd time - June 7, 2009:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jLjliUw3Dw&feature=channel_page


It just goes to show what some good food, and love can do for a dog.
I am very impressed with what you have been able to do with Drako.

Best regards


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I noticed the clicking nails right away. There is definately some improvement, it will be interesting to see if he strengthens up in those pasterns.

Definately some good info on rehab if you can get it done.


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## Debbie Skinner

thanks. I'll post more vids as he progresses. Right now I'm trying to teach him that playing with the handler is fun. We had to take today off though because my female whelped and we are keeping it quiet for a day or so. Ron did take him to a local park to meet up with others to train their dogs so he got an outing. Also, got to go up on the playground equipment (fort and slide, etc.).


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## Anna Kasho

He looks better than many advertised "high drive" dogs I see for sale, so  \\/ 
You are doing a great job with him. He's looking good!


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## Konnie Hein

He looks great!!!

I wonder if his nose will darken over time?


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## Bob Scott

Debbie said;
"Right now I'm trying to teach him that playing with the handler is fun."

Might be the root of the problem.
The "genius" that had him could have put to much defence on the dog when he "tested" it and just shut it down.
The strongest dog on the planet still has to be raised properly.


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## Debbie Skinner

*Re: Malnurished Mal-Drako-Day 24 Video*

This Video was taken yesterday, June 19th (24 days of Rehab) of us working Drako. He's really coming along in training and health. Normally he will enter into the CA Corrections - Cell Phone Detection Program with Wayne Conrad soon.

Drako Video Link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8AA06PTP-8


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## ann schnerre

*Re: Malnurished Mal-Drako-Day 24 Video*

WOW!!

are you sure that's Drako?? and that's a "washout"? for his sake, i'm glad he was. he looks great debbie.


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## Candy Eggert

*Re: Malnurished Mal-Drako-Day 24 Video*



Debbie Skinner said:


> This Video was taken yesterday, June 19th (24 days of Rehab) of us working Drako. He's really coming along in training and health. Normally he will enter into the CA Corrections - Cell Phone Detection Program with Wayne Conrad soon.
> 
> Drako Video Link:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8AA06PTP-8


Viola c'est Debbie ;-) Drako looks great! It's great to see the determination to give a pup every chance in the world. :smile:


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## Edward Egan

:smile: Debbie, what a transformation. You doing a great job!!! You should be proud!!! :smile: 
Here's to hoping it all works out!


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## Konnie Hein

Awesome!


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## Connie Sutherland

Edward Egan said:


> :smile: Debbie, what a transformation. You doing a great job!!! You should be proud!!! ...


I'll say! Congratulations!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sooooo, why was this dog a washout again ?? I can't see it really. Maybe the feet and pasterns thing was some odd genetic recessive thing. At any rate, I am glad he will be getting to go and work.


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## Debbie Skinner

Washed out for work..he doesn't like to work..can't you see that by the videos?


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## Debbie Skinner

Thanks. And now his nose isn't pink anymore. The vet said it was caused by lack of sunshine or contact with plastics...I will always wonder why his nose gained pigment back so quickly.. Of course he has sunshine now and is housed outdoors and fed in stainless bowls.


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## Debbie Skinner

Thanks and I hope he will make a cell detection dog and if not I have the condition that he is returned to me.


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## Wayne Conrad

Hey Debbie,
Have been following Drako's progress while I am in Florida. Looks better then alot of the dogs I see. You have done one heck of a job with him. I will be home late Monday Night so I will plan on getting in touch with you on Tuesday. I too hope Drako works out for detection work. We will make him a star like Caesar!!!

Wayne


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## Sam Bishop

That is amazing! Good work - and obviously a good dog fundamentally - totally failing to see his washout qualities????? WTF???? Believe me, I have a washout - I wish she'd bite the leg sleeve like that!


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## Jennifer Coulter

I am impressed with his resiliance. Dogs that can go through that kind of crap and come out smilin', tail waggin' like that are special, even if he doesn't work out for detection. Must have some good nerves, a glass is half full kinda dog. =D>


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## Sarah Atlas

ask your vet about vit E and selineum (sp) for being down on pasterns. Works very well for new born foals who are way down on their pasterns. Also, ask him about supporting the legs with leg wraps just like we use on race horses.


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## Debbie Skinner

Thanks for the advice and kind words all. I will take some more still shots of him. I believe his feet and pasterns have strengthened quite a bit and it's been less than a month. I've been told by others about supplements, but I just haven't given him any supplements yet. I've been feeding him basically raw along with some Evo and keeping him on sand (easy since we live practically on top of a riverbed). He's back in a larger area now..about 200' by 20' run that's in the front of our house along the road. He's living with my older female Malinois "Orly".


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## Debbie Skinner

It's been a little over 2 months since Drako was returned to me. Here are a few photos taken yesterday of Drako learning to swim at Lake Hemet (fishing lake 30 minutes from our place). I'm happy that his feet and pasterns continue to strengthen. He hasn't actually started swimming yet, but is getting comfortable with water up to his belly and playing tug with my husband Ron.


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## Connie Sutherland

Great job, Debbie!  =D>


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## ann schnerre

debbie, are you SURE that's the same boy???

he looks WONDERFUL.


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## Tamara McIntosh

Debbie Skinner said:


> Thanks for the advice and kind words all. I will take some more still shots of him. I believe his feet and pasterns have strengthened quite a bit and it's been less than a month. I've been told by others about supplements, but I just haven't given him any supplements yet. I've been feeding him basically raw along with some Evo and keeping him on sand (easy since we live practically on top of a riverbed). He's back in a larger area now..about 200' by 20' run that's in the front of our house along the road. He's living with my older female Malinois "Orly".


Hi Debbie,

I have come into this conversation very late. 

Up here in Canada, during the winters some of the dogs get what is called "snow nose" and it looks just like what your boy had. They usually will loose the pigment on their noses in the same manner.

In regards to supplements.. I use K9 showstopper on my dogs and have found that it helps to maintain the weight (I have a super active working bred dobie and a sibe) and gives them great coat. When I work my dog strenuously I give them the K9 super fuel. As well I use GO DOG electrolyte when it is hot.

I have rehabed several dogs, and one mal in particular that these supplements worked great on.

One of the other posters had mentioned getting lots of fat into the diet. This can actually cause a malnurished dog to go into kidney failure, as their kidneys will not be used to processing that much fat. It is the same concept as a starving person, you can not just give them free choice food.

Good job with the rehab of this dog and I hope he leads a fullfilling life! 

Congrats to Tim and Avatar!

Tamara McIntosh


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## Jennifer Coulter

I don't know if it is just the photo, but his paterns look SO much better. I can't tell from the photo, but have his feet tightened up at all too?


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## kendra velazquez

I`m so happy for him! He looks GREAT=D>


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## Kristina Senter

He looks AWESOME! No comparison to the first pics you posted two months ago!


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## Erica Boling

I would have never known that this was the same dog if you hadn't told me! Great job!


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## Mike Scheiber

Amazing!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Can you post a video of him walking just like the last two that you did ??

They look a hell of a lot better in that photo than I would have thought was possible.

Nice what a little food and some running around time will do.


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## Debbie Skinner

Yes, I'll put a video together. When I first got him back I really didn't think his feet would strengthen and pasterns go up this much either. Food and exercise sure does make a difference. Dogs really don't ask for much do they?


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## Debbie Skinner

Yes, the feet tightened up incredibly. Really more than I could of thought possible. I'll try to get a video and better photos.


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## Debbie Skinner

Snow nose is from lack of sunlight? I'm in SoCal so I know nothing about snow. Thanks for the supplement and food advice. I've been just feeding him raw and sometimes Evo when I run out or don't have enough thawed out.


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## Courtney Guthrie

He looks like a different dog. 

Courtney


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## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Can you post a video of him walking just like the last two that you did ??
> 
> They look a hell of a lot better in that photo than I would have thought was possible.
> 
> Nice what a little food and some running around time will do.



Here's the video. We took it last weekend, but due to our @#[email protected] satellite service, it's just up on youtube now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bdBPGjov9I&feature=channel


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## Debbie Skinner

Got another short one up of Drako retrieving with Ron:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrVx08eiPpA&feature=channel


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## Ted Efthymiadis

Debbie Skinner said:


> Here's the video. We took it last weekend, but due to our @#[email protected] satellite service, it's just up on youtube now:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bdBPGjov9I&feature=channel


Very happy to see he's coming along nicely, great work Debbie!


Still easty westy hahahaha


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Day three http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wwmKbdKZmQ

And now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bdBP...eature=channel

Much better for people to make a comparison.


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## Connie Sutherland

The second link doesn't work.

Can you re-post it?


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## Connie Sutherland

Huh. This 2nd one looks the same as Jeff's, but this one works. No idea why.

Day three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wwmKbdKZmQ

Now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bdBPGjov9I&feature=channel


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yeah, I saw that, I have no idea what the heck was going on. It worked when I viewed it before posting.

The dog actually does look better, which is great.


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## Nicole Stark

He looks much improved. Good job!!

Has he been x rayed yet? He appears to be visibly right leg dominant in the rear particularly when you observe the set down of the left rear leg. I also noticed that in both the initial and current video though not as visibly in the latter that he seems to shift his weight off his right front which makes we wonder if he experienced an injury of sort at some point thus the reason for his rear locomotion being what it is.

I saw that several people commented on the winter nose. My own experience is that it's not terribly unusual for young dogs in northern climates to lose pigment their first year winter. I've got a different breed entirely but mine did the same her first year and not at all the second. Her mother did the same as well in her first year. I don't remember where you got this boy back from but his age and location and time of recovery could have something to do with the loss of pigment on his nose. A number of other previously mentioned factors could have contributed as well but I thought I'd toss that out there anyway.


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## Erica Boling

He looks great, Debbie! How much does he weigh now? How tall is he? Nice looking boy!


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## Debbie Skinner

Nicole Stark said:


> He looks much improved. Good job!!
> 
> Has he been x rayed yet? He appears to be visibly right leg dominant in the rear particularly when you observe the set down of the left rear leg. I also noticed that in both the initial and current video though not as visibly in the latter that he seems to shift his weight off his right front which makes we wonder if he experienced an injury of sort at some point thus the reason for his rear locomotion being what it is.
> 
> I saw that several people commented on the winter nose. My own experience is that it's not terribly unusual for young dogs in northern climates to lose pigment their first year winter. I've got a different breed entirely but mine did the same her first year and not at all the second. Her mother did the same as well in her first year. I don't remember where you got this boy back from but his age and location and time of recovery could have something to do with the loss of pigment on his nose. A number of other previously mentioned factors could have contributed as well but I thought I'd toss that out there anyway.



I know when I got him back he was tender-footed due to getting to run in a large sandy area and not being used to it. His feet were flat with no arch support. I haven't X-rayed his hips. I haven't noticed what you are seeing to think to x-ray. I was thinking that his movement was caused by the lack of chest development, lack of angulation in the front..basically to his poor conformation. The vet said he suffered from malnutrition.

Drako was shipped back to my in May so it was way past winter. Do dogs get winter-nose in Chicago? My vet didn't call it "winter nose", but suggested lack of sunlight and also contact with plastics (crate, food dish..) causing the lack of pigment. I'm in SoCal with no experience with "winter nose".


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## Debbie Skinner

Erica Boling said:


> He looks great, Debbie! How much does he weigh now? How tall is he? Nice looking boy!



I haven't had him back to the vet in a while. I never measured his height. If I find the wicket this morning that I have around here somewhere I'll measure him. 

Wayne Conrad from CA Corrections is coming out to pick Drako up this morning for the Prison Cell Phone Detection Program. I hope Drako is a good fit there. If not, I'll always take him back to re-home him. I think he would be fine also for someone that just wanted to play around at club level schutzhund as he has the want-to.


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## Tamara McIntosh

Drako was shipped back to my in May so it was way past winter. Do dogs get winter-nose in Chicago? My vet didn't call it "winter nose" said:


> LOL.. ya I can imagine that in socal you don't see snow nose.. lol
> 
> The amount of sunlight we get way up here is really variable. In summer the sun will rise at around 4am and set around midnight, and in winter the sun won't rise until around 9:00am and sets at around 5pm.
> We are up around the 54th parallel so quite far north.
> 
> "Snow nose" is the laymans name for the lack of pignment. I am not sure what the medical term is.
> 
> I had a sibe that got snow nose every year. He wasn't malnurished whatsoever. But he did spend great amounts of time outside in the summer and quite a bit less in the winter. Over the years he was the only dog I have had, ever get snow nose. So it is not a magic forumla for when a dog will get it. Some dogs do and some dogs don't. So of all the things the dog had wrong the snow nose was probably the least of his concerns.
> 
> It can take a couple of months in the summer for the pigment to come back, so a dog with snow nose in May is not out of the norm.
> 
> Chicago is a much more southern location to hear of snow nose.
> 
> Tamara McIntosh


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## Jennifer Coulter

I can only add my experience with working in Canada in the snow with dogs.....I really know nothing of genetics and am not a vet. These are my observations....

I have seen LOTS of dogs that lack full pigment get pinkish noses. This includes some yellow labs, goldens, various spitz breeds and spitz crosses and so on.

I have seen this on these same breeds that often lack "full" pigment in snowy Canada, and also in dogs of those breeds from California. 

I have yet to see a GSD or mal or black lab, or other dogs with what I would consider "true-er" black pigmentation get snow nose. That includes pets but also working dogs that spend lots of time in the snow, are kenneled out of the elements (not a lot of sunlight), and subject to short days of winter.

Ask some AK handlers if their GSD or mals get pink noses in the winter there...I am sure they don't.

So, my observations lead me to beleive that in a healthy dog, the changing of nose colour may be somewhat dependent on their pigmentation, and less on snow or sunlight, since it happens in some breeds often, and rarely or never in others.


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## Debbie Skinner

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I can only add my experience with working in Canada in the snow with dogs.....
> 
> So, my observations lead me to beleive that in a healthy dog, the changing of nose colour may be somewhat dependent on their pigmentation, and less on snow or sunlight, since it happens in some breeds often, and rarely or never in others.



Drako is the only malinois I've ever seen with it and now it's dark and normal in just 2 months time. 

BTW, Drako is in the back seat riding with Wayne Conrad and his wife back to Sacramento. He's headed for his new life as a Cell Phone Detection Dog!


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## Jennifer Coulter

Debbie Skinner said:


> Drako is the only malinois I've ever seen with it and now it's dark and normal in just 2 months time.
> 
> BTW, Drako is in the back seat riding with Wayne Conrad and his wife back to Sacramento. He's headed for his new life as a Cell Phone Detection Dog!



Congrats to all responsible for giving Drako a new lease on life.


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## Thomas Barriano

*Cell Phone Detection Dog*

[QUOTE

BTW, Drako is in the back seat riding with Wayne Conrad and his wife back to Sacramento. He's headed for his new life as a Cell Phone Detection Dog![/QUOTE]


Good for Drako, but if the California DOC has a need for a dedicated "cell phone detection dog" it's no wonder the
State is on the verge of bankruptcy


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## Debbie Skinner

*Re: Cell Phone Detection Dog*



Thomas Barriano said:


> [QUOTE
> 
> BTW, Drako is in the back seat riding with Wayne Conrad and his wife back to Sacramento. He's headed for his new life as a Cell Phone Detection Dog!



Good for Drako, but if the California DOC has a need for a dedicated "cell phone detection dog" it's no wonder the
State is on the verge of bankruptcy [/quote]


What's up with that? The dogs are donated and it's quite the time saver for searching prison cells for cell phones. The first dog "Cesar" that I sent them is so good that many times when the prison sees Cesar, he just hands over the cell phone w/o a search as the dog is that good. I'd say in general you are correct that CA is spend happy. But, the dogs are the best resource and most cost effective way for dealing with the prisons. They never ask for a cost of living increase or raises! O


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## susan tuck

I can't believe I missed this thread. Honestly though, I am quite happy to have come in on the very happy tail end, it could have been such a different story with a lesser dog and a lesser breeder. As someone else said, it's a testament to the resilliance of this dog.

Debbie: I also wanted to say "hI!". You probably don't remember, but I met you out at Ted's club in Fontana, earlier this year, DVG regionals, when Cecil and young Drogo from your breeding were high schH3 and qualifiied for the nationals. You sure breed some mighty fine dogs! Drogo is nothing short of amazing, it's hard to believe he just turned 3 years old this month!


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## Timothy Saunders

I think the food you are feeding is the best but if it produces the runs you have to start on something not so rich. I think absorbing the food is the most important . I would feed some raw ( i like chicken backs) a lot of fat with soft bones. I would get some organ meat for the protien . p.s so sorry about the dog .looks like it could be a great dog . I am familiar with the lines and I think they are good.


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## Debbie Skinner

susan tuck said:


> I can't believe I missed this thread. Honestly though, I am quite happy to have come in on the very happy tail end, it could have been such a different story with a lesser dog and a lesser breeder. As someone else said, it's a testament to the resilliance of this dog.
> 
> Debbie: I also wanted to say "hI!". You probably don't remember, but I met you out at Ted's club in Fontana, earlier this year, DVG regionals, when Cecil and young Drogo from your breeding were high schH3 and qualifiied for the nationals. You sure breed some mighty fine dogs! Drogo is nothing short of amazing, it's hard to believe he just turned 3 years old this month!


Hi. Thanks! Nice to hear from you. That was the only time I've seen Drogo at. The only other times I watched him work was back when the pup was young and Cecil brought him out a few times for bites on the jambiere (attached photos). I guess from what I hear, Drogo decided it was a "bite-fest" at the Nationals and didn't get as far as the long attack, which I would of loved to have watched on that field (via vids). Thanks again. And I am very proud of both Drako and Drogo...both "D" names, but out of two different breedings.


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think the food you are feeding is the best but if it produces the runs you have to start on something not so rich. I think absorbing the food is the most important . I would feed some raw ( i like chicken backs) a lot of fat with soft bones. I would get some organ meat for the protien . p.s so sorry about the dog .looks like it could be a great dog . I am familiar with the lines and I think they are good.


I had Drako on 90% raw here (prey diet mostly beef, lamb, goat and some pork) and 10% EVO. Never had a problem with stools. However, I think he's on kibble now and still doing good. Thanks!


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## Wayne Conrad

Thomas wrote:
Good for Drako, but if the California DOC has a need for a dedicated "cell phone detection dog" it's no wonder the State is on the verge of bankruptcy










Thomas,
I am going to assume you do not have a clue how big a problem the cell phone issue is throughout the county when it comes to prisons. I wonder how you would like it if you had a daughter and she was talking to someone on facebood or my space, only to find out the guy she is talking to is actually a sex offender, talking to her from inside a state prison. This is just one of the problems we have with inmates and cell phones. Not to mention gangs calling hits, making drug deals, planning escapes and pretty much conducting their business uninterrupted. 

Now the best way to stop it in its tracks would be to set up signal blocking devices around the prisons to stop the signals. Well, guess what......... The Federal Goernment will not allow us to do that. Several states have appealed the Fed's decisons on this issue to no avail. So what do we do? I guess we could just turn a blind eye to it. These prisons are like mini cities. We have trucks comming in on a daily basis delivering every immaginable commodity. You cannot search every package or pallet of food supplies that comes into the prison. Contaband is going to make its way in, especially if the balck market for that product pays well. As it stands now cell phones are going for about $500 - $800 a pop. Prisons have everything from vocational instructors to maintenance workers comming in to work. Your going to run into people who are looking to make a fast buck. Ergo, phones are going to make their way into the prisons. 

As it stand now, Maryland, Virignia, Florida, Texas, Arizona and California all have pilot programs using dogs to detect cell phones. Why use dogs? Because they work. It takes me all of 2 minutes to clear a cell when it would take an officer an hour to go through everything by hand. The first dog we trained, "Caesar" was donated by Debbie Skinner. If not for her we would not even have a program, as the state is broke as you so eloquently pointed out in your post. Caesar has been so successful that we decided to add a second position. But guess what........... No money, the state is broke...... Along comes Debbie and Ron with "Drako" to the rescue. Until we get laws passed by the legislature making it a criminal offense to smuggle in these cell phones the problem will continue unimpeded. And thanks to two donated rescue dogs, we will be out there on a daily basis doing what we can to get the phones away from these criminals so that no ones daughter is communicating with them from a prison cell.

Wayne, Caesar and Drako


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