# Table Training or Box Training



## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

Can someone tell me what is the benefit of this type(Table training) of training??
What is your dog doing wrong or right to need this type of training??

I have never done this before and would just like to hear some different opinions...
Here is a link I found;
<Link Removed by Admin>

*Admin Note: The owner of the website you linked to has already been banned from this forum for spouting his crap. The reason he came here in the first place was because someone posted a link to his website, which he then saw in his website statistics. So, links to his website are no longer allowed. If you browse his website, you will see his dumb comments about the threads he posted on this forum a while back, as well as a copy of the thread. It might still be on this forum too somewhere, so do a search for "table training". This topic has been extensively covered. Mr Leigh is not welcome on this forum, nor most other forums on the internet. There is a reason for that. Be warned.*


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

It's kind of a controversial topic with alot of trainers. I have not done either but here is an explanation of the box training from Mike Diehl who uses it to help produce full calm grips.


*"Here you can see Mike utilizing the Bite Box. It is an idea that we were able to bring back from Europe from our good friend Joseph Mravik of Eurosport-K9. The Bite Box when done properly helps to teach proper gripping behavior early in young dogs and helps produce FULL and CALM GRIPS. It minimizes chance of handler error, teaches the dog to work independent of the handler, and creates fast hard strikes and re-grips. In the video you can see a 6 month old dog in the box for the first time. The dog did very well with strong active barking, nice regrips off shallow presentations, and full / calm holds. The picture shows a side shot of the dog learning to open wide and strike fast. Grips are crucial and that is why we use the Bite Box on our dogs and as part of our Best Beginnings program."

*There is also a video of it here.*
*- http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/training.html


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

For some reason, this topic elicits very emotional responses from people, many of whom have no first hand experience with it but have seen some really bad videos or read about it on various message boards.

As far as table training, it's just another tool in the toolbox. When done right, it's very beneficial for the same things Chris talks about with the box (I have no experience with the box). It sure makes making "dead prey" a lot easier too! It's also a great back saver for decoys. Anyone who has seen it used right will attest to the fact that dog are calm, relaxed, and enjoy the work.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)




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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

It's just a tool. And like any tool it can be used for good or ill.

It can be used to help teach the dog to set up properly straight in front for barking. It can be used to work on strikes and grips as in the video. Basically in those uses it is no different than any sort of back tie work, other than it doesn't allow the dog to move around as much and can provide a more definite bite range for the dog. It can be used to unsettle a dog a bit, due to the height, confined space and unfamiliarity, which is useful in bringing out defense in some dogs. I've also known people who claim to use it to help build confidence, rather than unsettle the dog, by raising the dog up more to the helper's level so the helper doesn't seem as towering and imposing.

In any of those cases it can be beneficial, provided the work is good and the helper knows what he's doing.

And then there are those who use it for extreme defense work, tying the dog to a post on a table and putting pressure on him until he's scared and frantic because his fight/flight response has been triggered... but with flight removed as an option, he has no choice but to fight. This sort of training is abusive and a great way to screw up a dog. Of course it doesn't take a table to do bad training. But it's the occasional use of tables for this sort of work that has given the table it's bad rap since for some reason when people see training they don't understand or feel is bad or abusive, many tend to focus on the tools in use (the table, the ecollar, the pinch collar) rather than laying blame on the people using those tools and the training as a whole.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A TOOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

To the O.P.,

A search on this site will yield hundreds of posts on dozens of web pages about the topic.


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

Here's a previous thread on the matter: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=634

I don't have sufficient experience to offer an argument for it, but I'll share what little experience I have.

My dog was put in the box to work on his grips. He was already showing good aggression and was biting before he was put in the box. Initially, he protested going in and I'm sure he was a bit stressed due to the environmental change, but after the first bite, he was drumming the sides of the box with his tail. His aggression and bites were noticeably harder. We only did this about four times, four to five bites each, over a two week period. 

Other young dogs that I have seen also elavate their game a notch when in the box and from what I have seen they are all there for grip work not for agitation.


Ps. The box is outside and although relatively new and covered with a tarp, it seems to be falling apart.

Edited to add: Connie beat me to the older thread.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I do have a video of my dog Bentley being worked on a defence table, the round table is not a defence table. The round table is used for the other things like correcting the grip, cleaning up the outs etc.. I will not post it here or anywhere and not that it's bad. It is really good. Bentley is a well balanced minded dog that has a tuff side. He is laid back but very serious. He was never scared on the table but instead wanted more. This helped bring to the surface what was already there nothing more and nothing less.

Both tables are just tools used by the right people with know how.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

My dog is worked on a defense table. He is also worked on the ground. Like Jerrys dog, he has never been scared and always wants more.

I was just thinking "he who shall remain nameless" ears are probably burning. If ever a topic pulls him out of the woodwork this is it!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Never seen a fear biter yet that it didn't work on.

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

A fear biter don't need a table.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

My experience with it was very good and my dog did great... The trainer working my old bulldog was very good and I trusted him competley. However when asking other people about it they were all kinds of stupid horrors told. Needless to say I think it is one of those thing where bad trainers make it out to be bad or ignorant people make it out to be bad. 

I think it can be a very useful tool.

I also use an e collar and some people think I am torturing my dog..... 

I would ask the trainer what his goal would be to use the table and if it is anything fishy find another trainer.

Peace!

Julie


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

By the way, I have the Eurosport bite box plans if anyone is interested in building one PM me with your email addy and I'll forward them to you.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I have never seen the table used to try to fix "fear biters". That would definetly fall into the category of a real bad idea. In fact the dogs I have seen that are fear biters are washed out way before they ever reach the stage of going on the table - of course, I am only talking about sport, I don't have any experience outside of schutzhund.


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