# Danni tracking



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Good track, I think. Just hard enough for her to make some mistakes but not too hard to screw her up. Hot out there too!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2RHgcaRf4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Looks good Katie. Is there a reason you go back behind her before you restart her? I heard your trainer tell you when to give her the command to start, but is there something specific you're working on with that?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

To be honest, I don't know. I just sort of copied what I saw other people do.

Chris probably knows the reasoning!


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

I've never seen anyone go back that far. I didnt know if it had to do with the line being between her rear legs, or if it may be something you're working on with how she restarts.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Looks like you're tracking on the moon. Or Mars.  

Looks nice! I watched the video without sound. I like her straight article indication. That's great. I vary which side I approach to pick up the article/reward also during training. But if my dog started always looking to his left, like Danni was doing, I would throw in a right side approach. Basically, at this point, if my dog looks over his shoulder to watch me approach, I go to the other side. Sometimes I throw in straddling over him. I like to screw with him just for the sake of my amusement sometimes though, so Chris probably has a better plan. 

I skipped to the article indications because I was noticing the interesting restarts. Are you avoiding restarting her from the basic position for a reason? 

Laura
P.S. I'm just impressed you went tracking. I tried to hide from the heat.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> To be honest, I don't know. I just sort of copied what I saw other people do.
> 
> Chris probably knows the reasoning!


What's with the line over your shoulder?
Chris doesn't have a reason, he's just messing with you


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I know nothing about IPO scoring but I see a dog working hard on a track in the heat! Indicates the articles as well.

Looks pretty darn good to me


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The reason I start the dog back so far is for the following reasons. 

First, I don't want to disturb the dog when he starts. Some dogs will move slightly away from the handler at the start. 

Second, It helps keep the dog straight on the indications. When the dog is taught that he will not be allowed to track until his head is oriented in the direction of the track, they tend to move their whole body in the direction of the track

Third, When I am right next to my dog I do a lot of stuff. I take the article, I feed, I mess with the line, I wet him down. When I move to the position in back of him he knows it's time to focus on the track and listen for the search command. 

Fourth, sometimes my dog and I have disagreements on the track. Starting the dog out in front like that stops the disagreement from influencing the start. 

There are a few more reasons, but I can't give everything away. :razz:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> What's with the line over your shoulder?


It looks badass!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks all! And thanks for chiming in Chris.

Thomas, the line over my shoulder just makes it easier for me to work with.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> It looks badass!


Or this


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Second, It helps keep the dog straight on the indications. When the dog is taught that he will not be allowed to track until his head is oriented in the direction of the track, they tend to move their whole body in the direction of the track
> 
> Third, When I am right next to my dog I do a lot of stuff. I take the article, I feed, I mess with the line, I wet him down. When I move to the position in back of him he knows it's time to focus on the track and listen for the search command.


Thanks for the clarification. Just a question...don't you have to restart in a trial from basic position? So at what point do you start restarting from basic? Or do you? Is this something that dogs adapt to very quickly and it doesn't take much? I like the idea of avoiding questions while training...my dog hopefully is tuning into me at basic even in a down except for tracking, which can be a gray area for the dog (pay attention to me when I'm here and you're there, except when the cues tell you you're supposed to be tracking) You took the question away. But at some point, it's going to come back?

Laura


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

The line over the shoulder may look "bad ass" and there "may" be a reason to start behind the dog BUT you can't do either at a trial.
So why do something you'll just have to fade anyway?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas, you use food, toy and an e-collar to train your dog. You can't use those in trial either. Why do you use them? You just have to fade them away.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Just a question...don't you have to restart in a trial from basic position? So at what point do you start restarting from basic? Or do you? Is this something that dogs adapt to very quickly and it doesn't take much? I like the idea of avoiding questions while training...my dog hopefully is tuning into me at basic even in a down except for tracking, which can be a gray area for the dog (pay attention to me when I'm here and you're there, except when the cues tell you you're supposed to be tracking) You took the question away. But at some point, it's going to come back?
> 
> Laura


Later on when the dog is close to being finished I start to do it more like a trial. By that time we have worked through our disagreements and I don't worry about that conflict influencing the dog as much. And since he is no longer worried about me and feeling confident I can then approach the dog and have the same behavior as I had when I was behind him. Does that make sense?


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I think I got it. Thanks and makes sense!

Laura


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas, you use food, toy and an e-collar to train your dog. You can't use those in trial either. Why do you use them? You just have to fade them away.


You've got a point


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm trying to find where in the rules it says you can't start the dog from behind it. I just started reading rules, so I really don't know them very well. Can anyone show me? Or send me a good link of the rules?

I also don't see anything about the way you hold the line, but aren't you at the end of the line during tracking anyways? Nothing to sling over your shoulder? Sorry I'm slow. It's Monday.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> I'm trying to find where in the rules it says you can't start the dog from behind it. I just started reading rules, so I really don't know them very well. Can anyone show me? Or send me a good link of the rules?
> 
> I also don't see anything about the way you hold the line, but aren't you at the end of the line during tracking anyways? Nothing to sling over your shoulder? Sorry I'm slow. It's Monday.


Katie I thought your track looked really good. Personally rather than trade the article for food, I put a food in the next footstep, but that could be something you may work on in the future or it could be something Chris does differently. Either way, you and your dog are looking really good right now, try to keep a steady hold on the line, I know it's not easy, but it will get easier as you go along, it's just a matter of time and experience.

As to starting the dog at the articles on the track: Once the dog indicates the article, the handler has to lay down the line, go to the dog, pick up the article, pick up the line, then restart the dog. You have to restart the dog from the basic position, so you have to stand all the way up, you can't be bending over, and you can't be behind the dog.

As to the length of the line, the handler must remain at the end of the tracking line, even if the line is over 10 meters, so no, you can't have it over your shoulder in a trial, but for training, have it any way you want.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

> As to starting the dog at the articles on the track: Once the dog indicates the article, the handler has to lay down the line, go to the dog, pick up the article, pick up the line, then restart the dog. You have to restart the dog from the basic position, so you have to stand all the way up, you can't be bending over, and you can't be behind the dog


Thats what I thought too. Then hunting around, I saw this video. He clearly re-starts the dog from behind him, and I'm not so sure his left hand isnt below his knee when the dog starts. 100 points though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG689zPTp8k


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> I'm trying to find where in the rules it says you can't start the dog from behind it. I just started reading rules, so I really don't know them very well. Can anyone show me? Or send me a good link of the rules?
> .


OH MY GOD somebody is reading the rules!!! =D>

It's on page 21 of the only rule book I have, the UScA book. 
In the FCI rule book, I think it is sort of addressed on page 50. This is the link I used:

http://www.fci.be/circulaires/55-2011-annex-en.pdf

Laura


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks Sue!

And thanks Laura. I see you have to be next to the dog. Does it have to be basic? Can't being behind the dog be considered next to the dog? Or do I have to be to the right or left side? The rules confuse the hell out of me sometimes. There's just a lot to read and memorize. I don't think I'm going to do very well at it but I'm trying!!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Katie I thought your track looked really good. Personally rather than trade the article for food, I put a food in the next footstep, but that could be something you may work on in the future or it could be something Chris does differently. Either way, you and your dog are looking really good right now, try to keep a steady hold on the line, I know it's not easy, but it will get easier as you go along, it's just a matter of time and experience.
> 
> As to starting the dog at the articles on the track: Once the dog indicates the article, the handler has to lay down the line, go to the dog, pick up the article, pick up the line, then restart the dog. You have to restart the dog from the basic position, so you have to stand all the way up, you can't be bending over, and you can't be behind the dog.
> 
> As to the length of the line, the handler must remain at the end of the tracking line, even if the line is over 10 meters, so no, you can't have it over your shoulder in a trial, but for training, have it any way you want.



The rules say that you have to be next t the dog it does not say basic position. What makes you guys believe that it MUST be from basic?

Sue where do the rules say you have to stay at the end of the line? The rules also say that the line must be at least 10 meters. So if your line is 12 meters you can have it over the shoulder.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> The rules say that you have to be next t the dog it does not say basic position. What makes you guys believe that it MUST be from basic?
> 
> Sue where do the rules say you have to stay at the end of the line? The rules also say that the line must be at least 10 meters. So if your line is 12 meters you can have it over the shoulder.


Page 49 in the FCI rules Laura posted:



> The dog has to track with a deep nose maintaining a steady pace. The handler (HF) follows his dog at as
> distance of 10 meters at the end of the tracking line. If the dog tracks free, then the handler (HF) is to
> maintain a distance of 10 meters as well. There may be some slack in the tracking line, but whereby the
> handler (HF) keeps it in his hand(s) and a definitive shortening of the line to get closer to the dog may​not happen. Touching the ground is not faulty.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

The line is in my hands when it's over my shoulder? 

I don't care either way. Just want to know now. Interpreting these rules is starting to feel like interpreting the Bible! :-o


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Steve Strom said:


> Thats what I thought too. Then hunting around, I saw this video. He clearly re-starts the dog from behind him, and I'm not so sure his left hand isnt below his knee when the dog starts. 100 points though.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG689zPTp8k


Here is another one that starts his dog from behind. Super nice tracking dog too. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0IZk1aWxyk


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> The rules say that you have to be next t the dog it does not say basic position. What makes you guys believe that it MUST be from basic?
> 
> Sue where do the rules say you have to stay at the end of the line? The rules also say that the line must be at least 10 meters. So if your line is 12 meters you can have it over the shoulder.


Regarding basic postion: 

You are right, I don't find it anywhere in my book where it specifies "basic" position, however, on page 21 of the UScA Rule Book, it does say "The dog must remain calm in the indication or picking up position until his handler, standing beside him, restarts him. The handler cannot start the dog while positioned behind the dog. The releasing of the dog below the handler's knee will be construed as handler help with a deduction of points".

Regarding being at the end of the line:

It's in my UScA rule book page 18:

"The tracking line must be at least 10 meters long. The handler must remain at the end of the tracking line even in the event the line is longer than 10 meters"


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I come from an AKC background. I did some stuff, including a very little conformation and obedience. The basic rule when competing was don't make the judge think. 

I know there's a lot to interpret, and we have all gotten screwed when we thought the rules said one thing, yet the judge interpreted them differently. But what are you going to do? Argue with the judge? Let me know how that works out for you.
. I try really hard to chalk it up to experience and hope I get a break one day.

I have this feeling Nathaniel talked about it at the rules seminar but my notes are in my truck and I'm too lazy to get them. It's easier to say basic. Did he say anywhere alongside the body? Maybe. 

Laura


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

How about displaying the article to the "judge" now. Looks like the dog is far enough along to add that for the handler to learn the proper way.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Regarding basic postion:
> 
> You are right, I don't find it anywhere in my book where it specifies "basic" position, however, on page 21 of the UScA Rule Book, it does say "The dog must remain calm in the indication or picking up position until his handler, standing beside him, restarts him. The handler cannot start the dog while positioned behind the dog. The releasing of the dog below the handler's knee will be construed as handler help with a deduction of points".
> 
> ...


If we are going to have this discussion, can we all agree to use the FCI rulebook? It's the only rulebook for IPO.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> The line is in my hands when it's over my shoulder?
> 
> I don't care either way. Just want to know now. Interpreting these rules is starting to feel like interpreting the Bible! :-o


not gonna read em then, I read the bible a couple times cover to cover. no wonder it takes a group meeting a couple times a week, covering a page or so's worth at a time, to sorta figure it out. O


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> not gonna read em then, I read the bible a couple times cover to cover. no wonder it takes a group meeting a couple times a week, covering a page or so's worth at a time, to sorta figure it out. O




I'm sure I'll figure it out. Eventually...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> If we are going to have this discussion, can we all agree to use the FCI rulebook? It's the only rulebook for IPO.


Okay:

http://www.fci.be/circulaires/55-2011-annex-en.pdf

Page 69

"The handler follows his dog at a distance of 10 meters at the end of the tracking line."

While this is not as spelled out as it was in the previous manual, I interpret "at the end of the tracking line" to mean there is no change, and I will continue to hold my line by the end.

Page 70:

"When the handler approaches his dog to release the article or when picking up, the handler must stand next to the dog. The dog is to remain calmly in place if indicating or where he picked up the article until released to track whereby the handler deploys him holding the line short."

Definitely not as spelled out as it was in the old manual, but again, I will interpret this to mean there is no change, and at articles will continue to restart with the dog on my left.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Either way, I'm not stressing over it. If I can teach my dog to track the way she's tracking I think teaching her to start from basic will be a breeze!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Thats what I thought too. Then hunting around, I saw this video. He clearly re-starts the dog from behind him, and I'm not so sure his left hand isnt below his knee when the dog starts. 100 points though.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG689zPTp8k


Steve,

The Judge GAVE the handler 100 points he didn't earn them (the dog probably ran a 100 point track). Like you said he started behind the dog. His hand may have been below his knee. I don't think he was in the basic position when the dog started either (bend over not standing straight) and probably less then 3 seconds delay between the praise and restarting the dog.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Steve,
> 
> The Judge GAVE the handler 100 points he didn't earn them (the dog probably ran a 100 point track). Like you said he started behind the dog. His hand may have been below his knee. I don't think he was in the basic position when the dog started either (bend over not standing straight) and probably less then 3 seconds delay between the praise and restarting the dog.


So the dog earned the 100pts but the handler did not? I'm not understanding. Is the handler not taken into consideration when judging the whole phase?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> So the dog earned the 100pts but the handler did not? I'm not understanding. Is the handler not taken into consideration when judging the whole phase?


Absolutely the handler is taken into consideration, and can lose points for the dog. I think what Thomas is saying is he saw no faults in the dog in the video but he did see handler errors, and those errors usually result in lost points, but in this instance and for whatever reason, the judge either didn't see the handler errors or chose not to deduct points. 

Also this video is from 5 years ago? I can't remember exactly when it was, but not that many years ago the UScA judges made a point of clarifiying the rule that not standing all the way up and restarting the dog with your hand down low is handler help and would result in point deduction.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I just found this with regards to restarting at articles. I stand corrected (I added the bold for emphasis since it's pertinent to this discussion): 

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/documents/2012_FCI_JudgesMeeting.pdf

FCI Judges Meeting Dec 9th – 11th, 2011 Breda, Holland

10.When giving the command to track on restarting the dog after articles, the handler must be “close” to the dog, *either beside or just behind*, standing upright, with line above his/her knee.


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## sam haddad (Jun 7, 2010)

looks great


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Well, with what Susan just posted, I'd stick with what you're doing on the restarts Katie. It looks good and your trainer has a plan. I'd stick with it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> So the dog earned the 100pts but the handler did not? I'm not understanding. Is the handler not taken into consideration when judging the whole phase?


What Susan said.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Got it. Thanks all. Sounds like I'm good to go!


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