# Raw question?



## Leanne Webster (Jun 2, 2012)

I got my mal pup at 8 weeks and begun feeding raw shortly after. He got an abscess in his mouth that was so swollen he couldnt open his mouth. The evet told me it was probably caused from a raw bone while chewing. We took a break on raw for a while but i still really wanted to go that route for feeding. He is now 8 months old and i started him back on chicken leg quarters, less than 3 days after starting it back up he has another abscess. I really do not want to give up on raw but cant keep going through antibiotic treatments for painful abscess, advice on what to do would be greatly appreciated!


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Leanne Webster said:


> I got my mal pup at 8 weeks and begun feeding raw shortly after. He got an abscess in his mouth that was so swollen he couldnt open his mouth. The evet told me it was probably caused from a raw bone while chewing. We took a break on raw for a while but i still really wanted to go that route for feeding. He is now 8 months old and i started him back on chicken leg quarters, less than 3 days after starting it back up he has another abscess. I really do not want to give up on raw but cant keep going through antibiotic treatments for painful abscess, advice on what to do would be greatly appreciated!


Use backs and necks instead of quarters


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Or a well ground raw is fine too...


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

I know it's way more expensive but you can get the premade mixes. I fed JJ Fuds that was pretty cost effective. It cost me about as much to feed that a month for my Dobe as a 35lb bag of high quality holistic grain free kibble.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Leanne Webster said:


> I got my mal pup at 8 weeks and begun feeding raw shortly after. He got an abscess in his mouth that was so swollen he couldnt open his mouth. The evet told me it was probably caused from a raw bone while chewing. We took a break on raw for a while but i still really wanted to go that route for feeding. He is now 8 months old and i started him back on chicken leg quarters, less than 3 days after starting it back up he has another abscess. I really do not want to give up on raw but cant keep going through antibiotic treatments for painful abscess, advice on what to do would be greatly appreciated!


Do you think a raw diet is that great?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what do you mean by an evet ?
"probably" has a degree of uncertainty built into the word ....
does your dog crunch and CHEW it's food or gobble/swallow most of it ?
most dogs learn easy and it comes natural; some need some coaching...


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Ditto on the backs & necks. First of all you need to do alot more research before switching to an all raw diet if that is the only thing that you are feeding is chicken Qtrs.

There needs to be more muscle meat & a variety of it to balance out if the Qtrs are fed on a daily basis as the only food. The RMB/ muscle meat ratio of off a bit..also you need organ meats & MANY other things.

Qtr are weigthtbearing bones & can be hard for some dogs to beak up & to digest, especialy smaller sized dogs which many mals & DS are. Also weightbearing bones can take a greater toll on teeth & can fracture teeth. I feed them, but the smaller sized ones..not the huge roaster birds or turkey Qtrs. Although there are those that feed them with no problems. Just not my preference for a constant part of my diet. Plus my dogs are on the smaller size. Even turkey necks can be harder for some dogs to eat & digest.

Backs have softer bones & cartiledge & are easier for the dogs to chew up & they dont tend to 'poke' at the dogs inner mouth as much when being chewed. They are also pretty easy to find. (& are preffererd over necks, although some added necks are good)Also you can use a variety of muscle & organ meats to round out the bigger part of the diet. Many raw feeders use chicken backs as a base for their raw diets & go from there.

Switch to useing backs as you main RMB with some necks here & there also. Easy to also get them from wholesale restraunt suppliers in 40lb cases for a better cost (as long as you have the freezer stroage) as the restraunts use them regularly for stock. 

You also might want to look at your supply source. It may be an issue from there. I don't know. I have been feeding a homemade raw diet for 9 years to 4 GSDs & never have had that happen or know anyone personally that has mentioned that happening to any of their dogs & several are breeders. Just sound strange.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Leanne Webster said:


> I got my mal pup at 8 weeks and begun feeding raw shortly after. He got an abscess in his mouth that was so swollen he couldnt open his mouth. The evet told me it was probably caused from a raw bone while chewing. We took a break on raw for a while but i still really wanted to go that route for feeding. He is now 8 months old and i started him back on chicken leg quarters, less than 3 days after starting it back up he has another abscess. I really do not want to give up on raw but cant keep going through antibiotic treatments for painful abscess, advice on what to do would be greatly appreciated!


Can you break down the time line a little? He had an abscess when 2-3 months old, then has been on commercial food for the 4 or 5 months since? 


Also, what is the whole diet? 

You don't mean the entire diet is leg quarters, right? (I have the same questions as Anne, I guess.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Leanne Webster said:


> .... I really do not want to give up on raw but cant keep going through antibiotic treatments for painful abscess, advice on what to do would be greatly appreciated!


And you're not planning to feed RMBs to a dog with an active abscess, I'm sure, right?


Where is it in his mouth? Also, is it the same spot?

Did he see his regular vet during the antibiotic protocol from the e-vet? What did s/he say about the probable cause?

Has he been to the vet yet (for this second one)?


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## Leanne Webster (Jun 2, 2012)

Rick- by evet i mean emergency vet. He does take his time and chew not just gobble as long as its a big enough peice of meat to start with.

okay now lets see if i can answer everything else. I am looking for a freezer so i can buy in bulk, i found a raw dealer in the town i work in and she seems to have a good variety. 
Okay i got him at 8 weeks he was being fed eagle pack by the breeder. i switched him to TOTW pacific stream puppy and then once he was good on that began with raw (i switched him to a good kibble first because im a beginner at raw and didnt want to not feed him right) i started with chicken wings, organs, sardines, tripe & primal chicken and beef nuggets. Then he got an abscess in the back of his jaw so big and painful that within 12 hours he couldnt open his mouth. I made him lickable "raw smoothies" from softened kibble and primal raw nuggets that i thawed and mixed with warm water. I took a break from the raw although continuing with the primal at 1 meal. Then when they recalled TOTW i switched him to wellness and gave up on raw till i could get a freezer and find more info. I am still looking for a good freezer hopefully will have one this week or next but started him back on a combo of kibble and chicken qts case i am trying to put weight on him and overloading him with kibble just gives him loose stools rather than gaining wait, adding the chicken for a few days he was already starting to look better till the abscess popped up. I caught it very early and i think this is why it didnt get so bad this time. This abcess was on the left side of his mouth on the bottom about half way from the front of his jaw to the back. I will get my freezer and do backs and necks vs qts along with everything else i was feeding and i was planning to introduce him to other meats just never had enough time before the abscess. Does anyone know any good websites with raw diet examples and feeding ratios?


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Leanne Webster said:


> Does anyone know any good websites with raw diet examples and feeding ratios?


 

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And you're not planning to feed RMBs to a dog with an active abscess, I'm sure, right?
> 
> 
> Where is it in his mouth? Also, is it the same spot?
> ...


I'm not thinking that bones are a likely cause of these abscesses, unless you mean a tooth was fractured from one (although I'm not a health professional), and I'd want it diagnosed asap.



Raw can wait until he does not have an abscess in his mouth. JMO!


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I think Connie has something there. What is the cause of the abcesses? Is it the bone injuring the tissue or the raw introducing bacteria into his mouth that already has a break in the tissue? 

I have been feeding raw for 14 years and our local yahoo group "Houston Raw Feeders" is very active. I have yet to hear of raw causing an abcess like yours. But there is always the first.

Also, I learned the hard way through years of chewing on bones, that my dogs' molars really got worn down over time. Now I don't do any weight bearing bones and no turkey necks. But that is just what I do.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Annamarie Somich said:


> I have yet to hear of raw causing an abcess like yours.


And this is recurring.

A broken tooth could have been the original trigger, which I assume is what the e-vet was saying, but then what happened? What did the regular vet say?


An abscess is a pocket of pus. There's more than one kind of oral abscess, but none of them is anything to wait for it to resolve. 

If he has a periodontal abscess, for example, it's very quickly destructive. The swelling is from the rapid bacterial growth, and this bacteria triggers fast and painful destruction of the supporting tissue and bone around the tooth or teeth.

Raw feeding is really a back-burner topic compared to an oral abscess.

JMO.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

So Connie, do you recommend a very good oral exam, even one requiring a strong seditive, to find the root cause? Broken tooth or even part of a baby tooth that never got pushed out...

I know that we are talking dogs, but a few years I had a crown with a puffy gumline and soft tissue above it, that I had been complaining to the dentist for over a year suddenly go nova on me. I blew my dentist off and went directly to the endodontist. He was able to save the tooth with a root canal. But then I had to go to a periodontist to treat the tissue and bone. The infection had gone on so long that this upper tooth had dropped due to bone loss. So for $1800 (I had already maxed out the insurance), the peroidontst pulled the gum back, power washed under the tooth, slipped in a piece of synthetic mesh for new bone to latch on and stitched me back up, just one stitch on either side of the tooth. That was an easy 20 min job for him. I went through several courses of antibiotics. The bone did grow back to hold the tooth. The dropped tooth has affected my bite. I'm still debating about getting a new crown to correct my bite. So lesson learned, if you let something go on too long, you can lose bone around the teeth and in the jaw.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Everything you describe (bone loss, affected bite) happens to dogs too. 

And as bad as your experience was, and it does sound awful, it could have been even worse.


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## Leanne Webster (Jun 2, 2012)

He has no broken teeth all are pearly white normal 8month old teeth. My vet thinks a bone punctured the gums while chewing and it got infected.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Leanne Webster said:


> He has no broken teeth all are pearly white normal 8month old teeth. My vet thinks a bone punctured the gums while chewing and it got infected.


Twice?


(You can't see fractures below the gumline.)


I'm glad the vet has seen and diagnosed, though (via x-ray, I imagine). 


I'd wait for complete healing to re-start raw, and also learn as much as you can about it during that time. 

I wouldn't give this puppy weight-bearing bones. I'd use backs as my basic RMB. You could be finding your source for that meanwhile.

Anne has posted good advice. A growing puppy does not have anything like the leeway in the calcium-phosphorus ratio that an adult does. I'm a long-time proponent of raw feeding, but not of learning on a growing puppy. The dietary requirements of a growing puppy are strict because his nutrition is where the material for his forming bones, teeth, organs, etc., is coming from. 

You might want to consider something like premade patties or maybe one of the puppy-appropriate THK formulas with RMBs added (when he's healed).


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