# Light vs. Heavy Bone Structure



## Daryl Ehret

Light vs. Heavy Bone Structure

I want to put this concept up for discussion, test it's merit. Generally, many of these characteristics commonly coincide with their respective heading in the diagram, with some occasional exceptions. But for the most part, generally seem composed of counterbalancing trade-offs non much unlike how the COMT gene is associated between stress sensitivity / pain thresholds and attention / memory.

Now, I've had some large bone (not as much heavy or thick boned) 80+lb. dogs prove to be very athletic, leaping 6 ft. obstacles with relative ease. So maybe that's not really an exception to this laid out concept, but what I really want to put under the lens of scrutiny here, is the supposition that heavier bone structure generally lends to greater nerve strength. What do you suppose?

I think Dr. Temple Grandin mentions this in some of her writings, as 'genetically linked' traits, but I don't possess any of her books to reference. Maybe this applies to canines? Certainly not bovines, as heavy boned cows can be pretty spooky.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Thanks for the interesting topic, the general proposition sure seems easy to accept. I'm sure there will be numerous counterexample s that folks will present both ways.there area plenty of sharp mastiffs and docile greyhounds around.


----------



## Tracey Hughes

I call BS..have seen more then enough nerve bag mastiffs in my life, or East German GSDs and plenty of Malinois with great nerves. 

If it was only as easy as that to breed dogs..


----------



## Daryl Ehret

To be plain, I don't believe it either, but I'm not greatly familiar with other larger breeds. I've just noticed a couple breeders of late make that correlation of heavier bone with stronger nerves, and these are breeders with no small amount of experience. But even within the german shepherd breed, some of the heavy boned DDR dogs I've seen were the nerviest. I'm guessing that the connection they're seeing is then moreso due to related families or direct bloodlines, than because of bonesize.

But conversely, do finer boned animals ever consist of stronger fiber?


----------



## Lynn Cheffins

If you look at pictures of earlier GSD's alot of them are lighter boned than currently seems fashionable now. In many med/larger breeds heavy bone structure kinda has "showline" written all over it. Lots of nervy heavy-boned dogs out there. You get nerve strength by breeding for it- by selecting dogs with good nerve strength, the working characteristics for the job required and the physical soundness to go with it. Plus using a chart with sighthounds at one end and mastiffs at the other is kinda apples and oranges with regards to useage. I think I have seen more stable greyhounds than mastiffs....


----------



## Christopher Smith

Daryl Ehret said:


> I think Dr. Temple Grandin mentions this in some of her writings, as 'genetically linked' traits, but I don't possess any of her books to reference. Maybe this applies to canines? Certainly not bovines, as heavy boned cows can be pretty spooky.


Things are not as simple as the chart makes it seem, but there are definitely connections between phenotype and temperament. 

Is this what you are looking for Daryl? http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html


----------



## Lynn Cheffins

While the Temple Grandin article is interesting and has some good info it makes too many sweeping generalities about some characteristics ie)blue eyes- as when she states that it is an idication of reduced pigmentation throughout the body - just not so.


----------



## vicki dickey

Australian Shepherds in the conformation ring all have larger bones now. These dogs of course also find their way on the agility field, in herding and other sports. I have owned both the heavier and lighter boned aussie. As far as athletic ability they seem comparable,the lighter bone dog had more lasting power and both had no physical problems. Temperment wise both were stable, quiet dogs. The larger boned dog had bursts of high energy that ran out while the lighter boned dog's energy was level throughout an activity. Two male aussie dogs, different bone size, different bloodlines so it doesnt say a lot. I think it would be a difficult subject to conduct a study.


----------



## Christina Kennedy

I wouldn't think this type of genetic linked "trait" has much merit. However, for arguments sake- I have a smaller, lighter boned male GSD who has fantastic nerve strength and more defense than prey. My last GSD was a larger male with big bone structure. Very little defensive drive but high prey drive. I do agree that my lighter dogs all have better stamina.


----------



## Bob Scott

In earth dogs (working terriers) I've always felt that the fine boned dogs are more apt to be wired a bit tighter. Nervier!
Definitely not all fit that but enough of them to make me start looking for it. 
Same thing with a high tail set. The higher the tail set, the tighter wound the dog.
border terrers for example have a lower tail set then most of the little guys. They are just as drivy as the rest but much easier to get along with in a pack.
Again, just something I've seen enough of to get my interest.


----------



## Laney Rein

Kinda goes with why more and more LE are turning to Malinois or dutch shepherds. As it stands right now - could change down the road - these breeds are generally smaller and lighter, making them able to get into spacesthat larger, heavier boned dogs can't. Second, less problems with hips and elbows, longer life expectancy in general, which means longer working life. Obviously, they don't feel there is a problem with nerve and I think many people who compete in bite sports would say these dogs also have crushing grips and deep bites. So I don't think the graph has as much merit as it appears to have.


----------



## Daryl Ehret

Christopher Smith said:


> Things are not as simple as the chart makes it seem, but there are definitely connections between phenotype and temperament.
> 
> Is this what you are looking for Daryl? http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html


Yes, those are the Grandin writings I had in mind, under "Conformation and Temperament" and "Performance Traits".

Keep in mind the breed examples were what I selected, to illustrate what I thought was the general idea here. It appears that when Grandin makes use of the idea, it's when comparing pigs to pigs, horses to horses, one species relative to itself instead of one species to another.

Of course these dog breeds are the same species, and while some generalizations can be made, I believe the connections seen have primarily been due to familial relatedness than from genetically linked traits on the chromosome.


----------

