# Dog selection



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

For you guys who breed and train your own dogs at what age can you start to tell what a dog really might excel at something? For example if you wanted a dog that you thought might be a great tracker when do you start to think “ya that dog is gona be a great tracking dog”? And how accurate do some of you think you can be? I understand a lot of it has to do with training but not all dogs are equal at everything. Is there anything you might look for in a young dog that you are hoping will excel at tracking? I would think you would want all the typical good stuff you would want in a dog but is there anything that makes you think a dog has a better nose or is better at using its nose? 
 Im likely going to be looking to get another dog over the next 6 months to a year and like everyone I want the dog that can do it all but I am going to try and spend more time tracking/ trailing with this dog. I don’t care it it’s a Dutch, GS or Mal. I have the opportunity to tell the guys at Baden what I want and they typically have dogs of all age on the ground to choose from. I trust their judgment but would like to hear other input. I would like to pick my dog when it is younger and have them put what I want into it. I understand its best if I worked with them and did more myself but time wont allow. So I would like to get a dog from them that is 10 months to 14-16 months old with the foundation and started on what I want. I can screw it up from there. Not looking to start another Baden cluster just looking for opinions on what people think about whatever it was I asked at the beginning of this long drawn out going nowhere thing I am typing.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris, if they are going to train it up to that age, let them pick it so it is all on them. If you pick it and let them train it, you just took the monkey off their back to deliver what you asked for.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> I have the opportunity to tell the guys at Baden what I want and they typically have dogs of all age on the ground to choose from. I trust their judgment but would like to hear other input. I would like to pick my dog when it is younger and have them put what I want into it. I understand its best if I worked with them and did more myself but time wont allow. So I would like to get a dog from them that is 10 months to 14-16 months old with the foundation and started on what I want. I can screw it up from there. Not looking to start another Baden cluster just looking for opinions on what people think about whatever it was I asked at the beginning of this long drawn out going nowhere thing I am typing.


Like Will Ferrel said about ten seconds after he shot himself in the jugular with a tranq dart...I like you man..but ur crazy 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xYRECth7Vo

You're not gonna get a good dog that's 10-16 months unless you pay the price, and I'm guessin you're not willing to do so.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ya there gona pick, 
When you say pay the price you mean do the work myself? im better off not doing the work myself.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris, 

I have just been through the puppy thing myself...some of my thoughts, though I don't actually have answers for you.

MAN do I like being responsible for my own training for so many reasons! I know I like things as certain way and wouldn't want to retrain an older dog... but, that is not what you are looking for so...

I feel like I could tell my pup was going to excel in the kinds of things I wanted her to from the get go (8 weeks), but was a lot more confident at about 5 months when the combo of maturity and imprinting seemed to combine into a vision of what the future could hold. 

This is my first dog I have done tracking with (not FST) and I did not pick her or the breeding for this purpose. I chose with my avi profile (air scent) in mind. That said, I started with a tracking foundation (with nice success), and only recently started working on the airscent profile formally.

If I was looking tracking dog, I would want to look at breedings where the parents where good trackers? Had the right motivation (I know you like dogs that are praise or work motivated only), the right focus and determination and were successful in the program I beleived in. 

Then, if I wasn't raising the dog, I would let the people who were raising the dog know that that was going to be my primary focus, so they would know that that quality was very important to me. If they give you the "all our dogs are awesome trackers"...well... 

Some are going to be better trackers at 10 months than others, and ones that had to work through less problems, more motivated, longer focus and so on. One of the benefits of getting a dog at 10 months is that you can just pick the one that is best at tracking at that age if it was your goal. 

Picking a pup at 8 weeks, but not training it yourself, and collecting it at 10 months seems weird to me. You either trust them to give you the right dog at 10 months when and IF they have it....or you pick a puppy and train it yourself. But that is just me.

To me it is not really about "how good the nose is" because I don't really know enough about that to have some method of choosing based on that. I care more about how motivated the dog is to solve the problem I want them to solve even through age appropriate adversity. I prefer an independent dog, that does not look to me when it can't figure something out. 

Maybe there is someone on this board that is familiar with programs were they select puppies specifically for tracking? The Dutch program comes to mind. Maybe one of them could tell you how they would pick a police tracking dog at 8 weeks from an agression profile dog at 8 weeks. That would be interesting to me as well. Of course they are not always right, but they would know well before 10 months if they got it wrong I am sure.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Imo it is more the person who has the dog,some people always have dogs which are great trackers.It seems to me which ever venue the handler likes to do most the better the dog is at it.
A few allround people do well in every aspect of training.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

My dogs all track well but they were bred for it for years. All dogs can smell what we can't but some, as Jennifer said, are motivated. For instanmce, ones the pups associate animal scent to the animal they are hunting, they will walk on water to find it. Likewise, cooking a burger will have a house dog sitting in antisipation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you are picking from a litter, look for the pup with the nose on the ground all the time. I didn't read where you wanted it trained. That is one of those trust issues. You will have to deal with that on your own. There are plenty of people that can get a dog to track, but to select one that is going to be really good ? You might get faked by good training.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I don’t really expect to be picking a little pup. If I went right now I would think there would be older pups like around 6 months onsite and I could get the dog I a few months. Maybe ask what one or two they recommend. Jen was talking about being responsible for her own training and I respect that but the unfortunate reality for me is that between my limited dog time and (although I got better) limited skills I would have a better dog if the training is done by others. They put a foundation into their dogs that allow for any dog to do all the agility I could handle and other stuff I like. It will give me something better to work with and I can continue going to Canada for weekends here and there. They are training dogs there every day and been doing so for a long time I cant compete with that. 
I think there is a lot to what Jack said, every time I get to dog sit a dog I spend most of my time trying to make the dog a climbing ninja. 
And as far as getting faked by training might happen but the good thing is what the hell do I know anyway. I’ll probably never figure it out and be happy anyway.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> For you guys who breed and train your own dogs at what age can you start to tell what a dog really might excel at something? For example if you wanted a dog that you thought might be a great tracker when do you start to think “ya that dog is gona be a great tracking dog”? And how accurate do some of you think you can be? I understand a lot of it has to do with training but not all dogs are equal at everything. Is there anything you might look for in a young dog that you are hoping will excel at tracking? I would think you would want all the typical good stuff you would want in a dog but is there anything that makes you think a dog has a better nose or is better at using its nose?
> Im likely going to be looking to get another dog over the next 6 months to a year and like everyone I want the dog that can do it all but I am going to try and spend more time tracking/ trailing with this dog. I don’t care it it’s a Dutch, GS or Mal. I have the opportunity to tell the guys at Baden what I want and they typically have dogs of all age on the ground to choose from. I trust their judgment but would like to hear other input. I would like to pick my dog when it is younger and have them put what I want into it. I understand its best if I worked with them and did more myself but time wont allow. So I would like to get a dog from them that is 10 months to 14-16 months old with the foundation and started on what I want. I can screw it up from there. Not looking to start another Baden cluster just looking for opinions on what people think about whatever it was I asked at the beginning of this long drawn out going nowhere thing I am typing.


No offense, but if you don't have the time to devote to a new dog and its training . . .why bother? Just sayin....:-\"
To me that is like saying I collect kids, I don't want to birth them, or raise them I just want to have them and enjoy them at my convenience. So pick me a good one, train it up to my satisfaction, hand it over and here is the check? Hmm...I don't get it.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I do see your point. I do get to spend some time working with the dogs, probably more than many on here but its not consistent. In short, ya im cheating by getting a dog with a foundation. But like I said even if I had the time I couldn’t mimic the foundation that the dogs come with from this trainer. I would need the time, skills and facility. It aint happening. Ill do my best to better the dog I get and my skills and have to be happy with that. 
You got a link to that website for the kids?


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

hey Chris , the first advice that Don gave you is the best. when you are buying an older dog that u need for a specific reason you have to trust the people you are buying the dog from and let them pick . I am going to back to Europe in Jan and going to let the people who know the line pick the pup. The only thing I would do is try to pick a scenario of your own when testing the dog. that why you would know a little bit if it is ability of training. good luck


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Tim, good to hear from you. Ya, ultimately they are going to pick my dog. I just like to think I was involved in the picking to make myself feel better if its good, and if it aint good I can say I didn’t pick it. I have seen some dogs that I could have kept from them in the past and I liked a few of them a lot. As far as specific reason no one is living or dying by what my dog and I can accomplish so its all just for fun to me. First and foremost its got to get be as trustworthy as a dog can be with kids and get along with my other dogs or it’s a no go. Going for a dog that is a bit more of a handful than the sleeper I have now. Quinn was a good first dog but as I am learning I can see some of the reasons he was given to someone as a first time working dog breed. You still have to dog I saw you with? How is it doing?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kerry Foose said:


> No offense, but if you don't have the time to devote to a new dog and its training . . .why bother? Just sayin....:-\"
> To me that is like saying I collect kids, I don't want to birth them, or raise them I just want to have them and enjoy them at my convenience. So pick me a good one, train it up to my satisfaction, hand it over and here is the check? Hmm...I don't get it.


I just read this again. Did you just use the kids/ dogs thing as a way to make a point? Or are you one of those people who kind of consider their dog to be just like a kid? For the record my dogs are my buds and ride around in my truck with me but to me they are still dogs and I keep them in a crate a lot longer than I keep my children in a crate. There is a difference. I just meet those sicko people who think there dog is a kid all too often. 
How bout a link to that kids website?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> How bout a link to that kids website?


If you're doing schH you might want to start here

http://www.adopt.org/assembled/lgbt_community.html


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

That site supplies good Sch kids? 

Oh man this thread can go bad any minuet.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I took my first GSD pup home at about 7-8 weeks. Whenever we were outside on the field in the woods, whatever, and I disappeared, Toni noticed that he never looked around like our other pups to see where I was. He just put his nose to the ground and nosed me out.

He's an excellent tracker. 

That he would bite was clear and although he wasn't so tough in biting with me on the tug, at 9 months, first time on helper, the helper had to change the young dog arm for the normal one.

The younger GSD has not quite the strong drive as the older one but I like his tracking - he whips his tail so I know he's on the track.

At the risk of sounding naive on here - a GSD from good working lines will make the sport grade and, over and above this, from the same breeders, some will be good service dogs.

I can't understand your not wanting to bring up the pup yourself? You say you have more time than most of us to train your dogs? 

If you don't trust yourself to train a 7-8 week old dog, how come you can place your trust in others

:-o


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> I just read this again. Did you just use the kids/ dogs thing as a way to make a point? Or are you one of those people who kind of consider their dog to be just like a kid? For the record my dogs are my buds and ride around in my truck with me but to me they are still dogs and I keep them in a crate a lot longer than I keep my children in a crate. There is a difference. I just meet those sicko people who think there dog is a kid all too often.
> How bout a link to that kids website?


haha, heck no...dogs are dogs and kids are kids...good bad and otherwise. <<vbg>>
Novel idea, and sound in its conception, but no - no website that I am aware of...possible business opportunity however, what with the gift giving season coming up and all....


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gillian, sorry maybe I didn’t get it across right. I meant to say I probably spend more time than many on here working with my dog. Meaning many on here likely spend very little time actually working with their dogs. You know sarcasm. I do want another dog, its not that I don’t trust myself or I wouldn’t rather get a pup. Its just getting an older dog with the foundation I want would be better for me this time around. Id want 10 hours a week to play with a pup and that aint gona happen for a while. 
As far as you disappearing are you talking about running off or like Harry Potter Style? :grin:
And Kerry Chris already posted a good kid site


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> That site supplies good Sch kids?
> 
> Oh man this thread can go bad any minuet.


www.shitmykidsruined.com

I bet you can get some of these "older" children pretty cheap after looking at this site.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Don't worry about how old the pup/dog is Chris. If you said you were getting a pup you would be told you would be better off getting a green dog. Your not gonna win. LMAO


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> For you guys who breed and train your own dogs at what age can you start to tell what a dog really might excel at something? For example if you wanted a dog that you thought might be a great tracker when do you start to think “ya that dog is gona be a great tracking dog”? And how accurate do some of you think you can be? I understand a lot of it has to do with training but not all dogs are equal at everything. Is there anything you might look for in a young dog that you are hoping will excel at tracking? I would think you would want all the typical good stuff you would want in a dog but is there anything that makes you think a dog has a better nose or is better at using its nose?
> Im likely going to be looking to get another dog over the next 6 months to a year and like everyone I want the dog that can do it all but I am going to try and spend more time tracking/ trailing with this dog. I don’t care it it’s a Dutch, GS or Mal. I have the opportunity to tell the guys at Baden what I want and they typically have dogs of all age on the ground to choose from. I trust their judgment but would like to hear other input. I would like to pick my dog when it is younger and have them put what I want into it. I understand its best if I worked with them and did more myself but time wont allow. So I would like to get a dog from them that is 10 months to 14-16 months old with the foundation and started on what I want. I can screw it up from there. Not looking to start another Baden cluster just looking for opinions on what people think about whatever it was I asked at the beginning of this long drawn out going nowhere thing I am typing.


You said baden,

Run as fast as u can.

Baden also stands for dewey cheatem and how

Simple, contact the Niagara Humane Society and or the local cops.

I hope u did not fall for the scam.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> You said baden,
> 
> Run as fast as u can.
> 
> ...


Trying to stay off the Baden thing, its been beat to death. Its right up there with will my house dog bite for real? Already have one of their dogs and know of several of their dogs working as police dogs in my area. I like them. Just seen one of their dogs go to a local trainer my area that is very experienced and he really likes it. I got to admit I never seen them say there litters were too hard for your average handler. If they ever said something like that I would run. I guess we all have our things that would make us run


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Trying to stay off the Baden thing, its been beat to death. Its right up there with will my house dog bite for real? Already have one of their dogs and know of several of their dogs working as police dogs in my area. I like them. Just seen one of their dogs go to a local trainer my area that is very experienced and he really likes it. _*I got to admit I never seen them say there litters were too hard for your average handler.*_ If they ever said something like that I would run. I guess we all have our things that would make us run


:-k:-k


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't worry about how old the pup/dog is Chris. If you said you were getting a pup you would be told you would be better off getting a green dog. Your not gonna win. LMAO


 
Ha, Everyone has the opinion


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Trying to stay off the Baden thing, its been beat to death. Its right up there with will my house dog bite for real? Already have one of their dogs and know of several of their dogs working as police dogs in my area. I like them. Just seen one of their dogs go to a local trainer my area that is very experienced and he really likes it. I got to admit I never seen them say there litters were too hard for your average handler. If they ever said something like that I would run. I guess we all have our things that would make us run


Chris,

Mike S might not be "easily impressed" but I guess you are 
Are you looking at the dog(s) or are you listening to what 
Baaaaaden is telling you?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> Mike S might not be "easily impressed" but I guess you are
> Are you looking at the dog(s) or are you listening to what
> Baaaaaden is telling you?


I am easily impressed, you couldn’t impress me but I am easily impressed


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> I am easily impressed, you couldn’t impress me but I am easily impressed


Chris,

I have ZERO interest in trying to impress you. I don't want your money like the "dogmen" at Baaaaden. Just for giggles why don't you tell us how much Mike is going to charge you for your pre trained super dog? LMAO


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> I have ZERO interest in trying to impress you. I don't want your money like the "dogmen" at Baaaaden. Just for giggles why don't you tell us how much Mike is going to charge you for your pre trained super dog? LMAO


Ha, Ill pay what I want too. Thanks for trying to save me from myself! I don’t remember talking about a super dog. Something bad happen to you in the past that makes you feel you need to police the dog world?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ha, Ill pay what I want too. Thanks for trying to save me from myself! I don’t remember talking about a super dog. Something bad happen to you in the past that makes you feel you need to police the dog world?



Chris

I have less interest in "saving you from yourself" then I had in impressing you. Nothing bad needs to have happened for me to get a chuckle out of fools being parted from their money by
con men and BS artists. Chris send me a $100 and I'll sell you a DYI trial package from my new Professional Union of K9 Evaluators (PUKE) including 3 PUKE III titles ROTFLMAO


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gave me an idea Thomas. I think I will go to the trophy shp and have me a couple of Sch III trophies made up with the certificates for when this German pup is bred. You always thinking Thomas. Maybe a BH to show they are trained protection dogs.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris
> 
> I have less interest in "saving you from yourself" then I had in impressing you. Nothing bad needs to have happened for me to get a chuckle out of fools being parted from their money by
> con men and BS artists. Chris send me a $100 and I'll sell you a DYI trial package from my new Professional Union of K9 Evaluators (PUKE) including 3 PUKE III titles ROTFLMAO


After all this you’re not even sharp enough to realize I don’t want to do it myself. That’s what this is all about. That’s why im not gona buy your DYI kit. So there! And if you did try to start your own title you would be really pissed when we tell you that Butches titles are more respected.:-& 
Now without you worrying about where the dog is coming from and how much money someone is making do you have any advice for the original question?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gave me an idea Thomas. I think I will go to the trophy shp and have me a couple of Sch III trophies made up with the certificates for when this German pup is bred. You always thinking Thomas. Maybe a BH to show they are trained protection dogs.


 
That’s no joke Don, there’s people out there that will give you a few extra grand for a pup if you tell them the parents have a trophy. Just use a bowling trophy or something and put it up high. No one really looks anyway.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> After all this you’re not even sharp enough to realize I don’t want to do it myself. That’s what this is all about. That’s why im not gona buy your DYI kit. So there! And if you did try to start your own title you would be really pissed when we tell you that Butches titles are more respected.:-&
> 
> >They might be more respected now because I'm just starting.
> >wait till I go "International" and get my picture taken with
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gave me an idea Thomas. I think I will go to the trophy shp and have me a couple of Sch III trophies made up with the certificates for when this German pup is bred. You always thinking Thomas. Maybe a BH to show they are trained protection dogs.



Hey Don

I've go no problem with you making up some SchH III trophies
or BH "titles". Just don't say your dogs are PUKE III until you send me $100


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

>There is NO age where you can tell what a puppy would be
>more suited for. Find a good working puppy and you can
>imprint it for what ever the fuk you want. Duh!

So your opinion is all good working dogs are equal at everything, got it. Thanks for making it so easy for me. I’ll take your hobbyist experience into consideration regarding how much I will let this sway my decision.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

_>They might be more respected now because I'm just starting. 
>wait till I go "International" and get my picture taken with
>Barack Obama. _
_This is pretty funny _


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> >There is NO age where you can tell what a puppy would be
> >more suited for. Find a good working puppy and you can
> >imprint it for what ever the fuk you want. Duh!
> 
> So your opinion is all good working dogs are equal at everything, got it. Thanks for making it so easy for me. I’ll take your hobbyist experience into consideration regarding how much I will let this sway my decision.


NO Chris that's not what I said. A good working PUPPY can be imprinted to be good at tracking or Schutzhund or Ring or SAR.
IF you do nothing with a working puppy it will NOT all of a sudden become naturally good at anything at age x y or z
Imprinting/training is everything (given good stock) natural
ability is over rated.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Imprinting/training is everything (given good stock) natural
> ability is over rated.


There is the gem of the day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: There is NO age where you can tell what a puppy would be
more suited for. 

So the puppy that never picks his nose up off the ground is probably not a tracker ? As long as it isn't getting butchered by someone, you can tell what a pup would be better suited for.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

hey chris the dogs are great . my little pup is huge just turned a yr and is over 70lbs. social,can get civil , deep grips. the only thing I am surprised about is how agile he is to be so big. give me a call some time


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