# Supplements for arthritis - older stud dog?



## Debbie Skinner

Hi. I have a 10 year old Beauceron male that I've been giving aspirin and also a powder supplement called AniFlex Complete. I give this once per day in his food for arthritis. It's working well, but if there is something better, I'd love to know.

I wonder if anyone can recommend a better product for a stud dog? I'll be sending him to France soon for breeding. The winters will be damper and colder and I was wondering if there is a better supplement or maybe I should consider something stronger than aspirin? 

Some say Prednisone is ok for a stud, but others say don't do it. I would like to stay with something with less side effects than Pred if I can. Rimedyl? But, there are side effects..hard on the liver..

The AniFlex Complete is a powdered Horse supplement by AniMed and all natural. Contains: Glucosamine, Chondroitin, HA, MSM, Vit A, C, E, Yucca, Hesperidin and Creatine.

At 10 years old Phantom is still very active and always playing with stuff..favorite is his big ball.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Is the dog in pain (or stiff) when he first gets up in the morning? Are you seeing pain and infirmity that are making you and/or your vet consider an NSAID (Metacam, Deramaxx, etc.)?

What do the x-rays look like (as far as OA changes go)?

You are using daily aspirin now? It's an NSAID too (as is Rimadyl). Did the dog have the baseline liver/kidney tests done before starting it? (Dogs don't tolerate aspirin nearly as well as humans.)

Is the dog getting daily long-chain Omega 3s from marine products (fish oil)? How much?

How much glucosamine is there in his current dosage?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Hi:

I use Aniflex Complete as well for my dogs as sort of maintenance. When is the last time you collected your dog? When I had a male, I had him on a good saw palmetto complex. I'm with Connie on the Omegas. They are anti-inflammatory. Cod Liver Oil with Vit A and D can also be helpful. Just don't give too much. Instead of the Aspirin, I'd use White Willow Bark which aspirin is made from and Boswellia. Depending on the dog, my guys also get 400-800 i.u. of Vit E. I've also gone to making my own food and feeding raw turkey necks every other day. That could be a bad thing. The bouv seems to be higher prey and bouncing off the walls. With the glucosamine/chondroitin complex and the hip certified crew I haven't had to go to daily aspirin even for the 13 1/2 year olds. I'm not a fan of Metcam, Deramaxx and have already had one placed dog killed with Rimadyl. I've occasionally used Etogesic.



Terrasita


----------



## Matt Grosch

For the supplement itself, that sounds like a good one. I can only comment on how they concern humans (should be the same), but the only possible missing ingredient would be gelatin. I personally use an unflavored powder mix every day that is good quality and affordable, would be worth comparing to what you are using now.


$9 for 30 servings


http://www.allstarhealth.com/f/now-joint_support_powder.htm


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Yeah for the dog that I had that was dysplastic, I used unflavored Knox Gelatin but I can't remember it making a difference. But then again, she was dysplastic in all four extremities so it was probably asking a bit much for any product to overide that. Its funny how differnt products work for different dogs. I used a product called Next Level liquid for one of my corgis when he got older. Worked like a charm. Then they took it out of our market because of a trace ingredient. Now its back.

Terrasita


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Like Terrasita, I am slow to use a daily NSAID (Deramaxx, Metacam, et al). 

When I do, and I have, I follow every protocol of pre-testing for liver values, etc., and then regular re-testing from then on, as well as watching carefully for the other kind of serious possibility, which is GI problems (ulcer).

I asked how serious the discomfort and lameness were because there are times when NSAIDs are needed to maintain quality of life. Then they can be pretty miraculous.

Fish oil and the E that protects the PUFAs in the fish oil are supplements that I think almost every dog should be given, because of the nature of modern grain-fed slaughter animals (whether raw or in commercial foods) and the extreme imbalance between Omega 3s and 6s that these Omega-6-rich meats trigger in the diet.

I recommend that the fish oil not be a liver oil; for one thing, in therapeutic dosage amounts, liver oils can supply far too much oil-soluble (accumulating) vitamins that can be toxic in high doses.

As Terrasita says, if you give a fish liver oil (which again, I don't really recommend), you must be careful about not overdosing.

I agree about Rimadyl. You will hear conflicting opinions, but I did spend a few hours once (I think it was 2007) comparing death stats on Rimadyl and other NSAIDs, and found that even adjusting for the very wide use of Rimadyl, it had a bad comparative history. Metacam had the best (but still had deaths associated with it, as do all NSAIDs used for dogs), with Deramaxx very close. Both cost more than Rimadyl.

But all NSAIDs (aspirin included) should be used right, with pre-testing and regular tests to check those liver and kidney values, and carefully reviewing with the vet the GI symptoms to watch for too.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Here's a pretty good discussion of the various possibilities:
http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/care.cd.html

I wish we had Cartrophen Vet in the U.S. (not Carprofen, which is Rimadyl). Been waiting for several years now for FDA approval.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is the dog in pain (or stiff) when he first gets up in the morning? Are you seeing pain and infirmity that are making you and/or your vet consider an NSAID (Metacam, Deramaxx, etc.)?
> 
> What do the x-rays look like (as far as OA changes go)?
> 
> You are using daily aspirin now? It's an NSAID too (as is Rimadyl). Did the dog have the baseline liver/kidney tests done before starting it? (Dogs don't tolerate aspirin nearly as well as humans.)
> 
> Is the dog getting daily long-chain Omega 3s from marine products (fish oil)? How much?
> 
> How much glucosamine is there in his current dosage?


He seems stiff with weakness in the hind end. After playing with his ball or other things that he likes to toss about he can seem in pain though. Without the aspirin he won't jump up on the fence or me so I guess that would be pain. He never cries out. He's a dog that wouldn't cry out though.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Matt Grosch said:


> For the supplement itself, that sounds like a good one. I can only comment on how they concern humans (should be the same), but the only possible missing ingredient would be gelatin. I personally use an unflavored powder mix every day that is good quality and affordable, would be worth comparing to what you are using now.
> 
> 
> $9 for 30 servings
> 
> 
> http://www.allstarhealth.com/f/now-joint_support_powder.htm


I'll add the gelatin. I used to give that to his great-grandfather and totally forgot abouit. Thanks!


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is the dog in pain (or stiff) when he first gets up in the morning? Are you seeing pain and infirmity that are making you and/or your vet consider an NSAID (Metacam, Deramaxx, etc.)?
> 
> What do the x-rays look like (as far as OA changes go)?
> 
> You are using daily aspirin now? It's an NSAID too (as is Rimadyl). Did the dog have the baseline liver/kidney tests done before starting it? (Dogs don't tolerate aspirin nearly as well as humans.)
> 
> Is the dog getting daily long-chain Omega 3s from marine products (fish oil)? How much?
> 
> How much glucosamine is there in his current dosage?


I forgot to answer a couple things. His hips are OFA Excellent. I haven't done x-rays recently. He's been to the chiropractor off and on. I've been told and from what I see as well, it's in his lower back and also in his neck. 

I did a blood panel last May as part of the health exam when I collected him for frozen semen. Everything was normal. I have emailed the reproduction vet for another visit which will include a health check and semen evaluation. She hasn't called back, but I will be getting that done I'm sure in the next few days.

I started the aspirin and Supplement and switched to Canidae just last week. I switched him from 90% Raw + some EVO to the Canidae Wild Caught Salmon "grain-free". This would cover the fish oil, right? That's what I was thinking when I made the switch.

I'll have to calculate the dosage...I hate math HELP! I give him approximately 1/2-3/4 teaspoon each day on the kibble.

The container says there is 5000mg of Glucosamine HCL (shelfish) per ounce.
Vitamin C 3526mg, Hesperidin 3475mg, Chondroitin Sulfate (porcine) 2075mg, MSM 1775mg, Creatine 1000mg, Yucca 800mg, Vit E 55IU, Hyaluronic Acid 50mg.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Here's a pretty good discussion of the various possibilities:
> http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/care.cd.html
> 
> I wish we had Cartrophen Vet in the U.S. (not Carprofen, which is Rimadyl). Been waiting for several years now for FDA approval.



Is it available in Mexico :?:


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hi:
> 
> I use Aniflex Complete as well for my dogs as sort of maintenance. When is the last time you collected your dog? When I had a male, I had him on a good saw palmetto complex. I'm with Connie on the Omegas. They are anti-inflammatory. Cod Liver Oil with Vit A and D can also be helpful. Just don't give too much. Instead of the Aspirin, I'd use White Willow Bark which aspirin is made from and Boswellia. Depending on the dog, my guys also get 400-800 i.u. of Vit E. I've also gone to making my own food and feeding raw turkey necks every other day. That could be a bad thing. The bouv seems to be higher prey and bouncing off the walls. With the glucosamine/chondroitin complex and the hip certified crew I haven't had to go to daily aspirin even for the 13 1/2 year olds. I'm not a fan of Metcam, Deramaxx and have already had one placed dog killed with Rimadyl. I've occasionally used Etogesic.
> 
> Boswellia is that from Pineapple? I'll look for the White Willow Bark. I collected him last summer several times and one collection = 4-5 breeding doses. I'll be taking him in soon for an evaluation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrasita


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

I was wondering given what you've said about x-raying if it was more back related, perhaps from the bite work. Once I started watching bite work I thought it was a chiropractic/spine nightmare. If you are into ring, the palisade would be murder on the body over time--especially the landing. Is there a reason you went from raw to kibble? [For me it was convenience until it started going into $50--$60 a bag]. I don't rely on anything in kibble as far as supplements. With me giving it I know how much they are giving. I might take a look at spine x-rays. Hind end can be related to myelopathy/arthritis issues--not hinting at genetics but wear and tear.

*Benefit of boswellia extract
*Gum resin extracts of Boswellia species have been traditionally used in folk medicine for centuries to treat various chronic inflammatory diseases, and experimental data from animal models and studies with human subjects confirm the potential of boswellia extracts as a treatment inflammatory conditions but perhaps cancer. 
*Boswellia anti-inflammatory benefits
*Boswellia Serrata is an ancient Ayurvedic herb from India. It is known among herbalists as a treatment for arthritis. It is also beneficial in helping inflammation and joint health. Extracts of boswellia serrata have natural anti-inflammatory activity at sites where chronic inflammation is present by switching off pro-inflammatory cytokines and mediators, which initiate the process. Analysis of the ingredients of these extracts revealed that the pentacyclic triterpenes boswellic acids possess biological activities and appear to be responsible for the respective pharmacological actions.

I did a lot of research on the two and dogs before deciding. I'm not as good as Connie about keeping links to studies and such. I always encourage people to do their own research and consider their specific dog.

Terrasita


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't rely on anything in kibble as far as supplements.



Neither do I.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I was wondering given what you've said about x-raying if it was more back related, perhaps from the bite work. Once I started watching bite work I thought it was a chiropractic/spine nightmare. If you are into ring, the palisade would be murder on the body over time--especially the landing. Is there a reason you went from raw to kibble? [For me it was convenience until it started going into $50--$60 a bag]. I don't rely on anything in kibble as far as supplements. With me giving it I know how much they are giving. I might take a look at spine x-rays. Hind end can be related to myelopathy/arthritis issues--not hinting at genetics but wear and tear.
> 
> Terrasita


Yes, because in France he'll be on kibble and if he checks out to be in good shape for breeding he will be leaving soon. I thought the Salmon kibble was a good choice because the main ingredient is Salmon. 

http://www.canidae.com/dogs/grain-free-salmon/dry.html
Grain Free Formula with *80% Fish Protein and 20% Vegetable and Fruit Protein* Provides Wholesome Nutrition and Increased Energy Levels.
Crude Protein​ (min.)​ 40.00%​ 
Crude Fat​ (min.)​ 20.00%​ 
Alpha Linolenic Acid (Omega 3)*​ (min.)​ 1.00%​


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_QUOTE: Is it [Cartrophen Vet] available in Mexico? End_

As far as I know, no. I think it's available only in Canada, the UK, and Australia. Anyone else know about other countries?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_QUOTE: Boswellia is that from Pineapple? END_

No, that's bromelain, a proteolytic (digestive) enzyme.

Boswellic acids are anti-inflammatory compounds from the resin of the Boswellia serrata tree that work by inhibiting the action of proinflammatory chemicals.


----------



## Chris McDonald

I know this might be a bit off the wall, but I have some back issues and arthritis is one of them. I bought a lot of it upon myself and all the people who said I would be paying for this or that in the future were right. I just had something called Radio Frequency to three levels of my back to burn the nerve or something. It worked like a champ in the area it was done, it was a simple in and out thing. I have no idea if they do this for dogs, but the difference was amazing. I used to walk like a cave man when I woke up.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

You might look up prolotherapy. Its very popular in horses and my friend used it with her bouv. But really, based on his working life, it could be wear and tear and degeneration of the bony parts.As for Canidae, I actually fed that for a long time until it went to Diamond as a manufacturer and chaned some of its ingredients. Amongst kibbles, its a good food. I still don't rely on what's in the bag as far as supplements are concerned. They are generally damaged with cooking and aren't at therapeutic doses.

Terrasita


----------



## Wayne Conrad

Hey Debbie,

Started having a bit of a similar problem with Caesar a few weeks ago. When he stood up after lying down for awhile he would hold up his left rear leg and hop around for a few minutes. If I rubbed his leg I could work it out. Had X-rays taken and all looked good. Vet beleives it is a cartiledge problem. He initially put caesar on 100 mg of Deramaxx, now has him on "Pro Motion" which is a joint supplement with Bioflavanol. I am no longer giving him the Deramaxx abnd so far so good. With Caesar it was confusing as he would hold up his leg, but if I showed him and threw his ball he would take off like a bat out of hell !!! For few i thought he was gaming me !!!

Wayne


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

As in quercetin?


Terrasita


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Neither do I.


Should I knot worry about giving too much fish oil if he is on a salmon based diet already?


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> _QUOTE: Is it [Cartrophen Vet] available in Mexico? End_
> 
> As far as I know, no. I think it's available only in Canada, the UK, and Australia. Anyone else know about other countries?



I'll see if it's available in France. I will ask friends in Mexico as well. I know I can get Adequin in TJ.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

With the food, if I did it right, you might get 1.3 grams of Omega 3 per cup. Its .26 grams per 100 kcal. There are 498 kcal per cup. I'll let one of the mathematicians play with it. I still wouldn't give it much consideration and would add at least a couple of grams. 

I forgot about Adequan Injections. It has worked well for wear and tear arthitis or an older dog slowing down. 

Terrasita


----------



## Terry Fisk

We have been using Joint Strong very successfully. Even dogs that have spondylosis or hip dysplasia have been weaned off Metacam or Rimadyl pretty successfully while on JS. Not only do the natural ingredients provide joint support but anti-inflammatory ingredients as well. Feedback has been very positive with rapid recovery after surgery, fractures and even pano. Yes, we sell the supplement but we would not if we hadn't tested and believe in it 100%  http://www.showandsport.com/joint_strong.htm

You could add additional salmon oil, most manufacturers processes the life out of any nutritional supplements they add to kibble anyway.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

What are the Major problems with Rimadyl?


----------



## Claudia Chance Nicosia

http://platinumperformance.com/animal/canine/

Been using their products for years on my dogs & horses. I've had great results with the Platinum CJ, Vet Joint Formula & Ortho ChonHA. Early on I balked at some of their prices but I've spent less on other products without getting a fraction of the results.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Kyle Sprag said:


> What are the Major problems with Rimadyl?



Bleeding ulcers and liver or kidney failure.

Again, these are possible side effects of all NSAIDs used on dogs, including aspirin. The best thing is to use them carefully, doing the pre-protocol and then regular repeated blood work (liver, pancreas, and kidney), and knowing the signs of GI problems (ulcer).


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Well, I went back on my no raw on Phantom tonight. Scored too much meat, bones, organs at the butcher. Can't fit it all in the freezers. He's chowing on all you can eat tripe, liver and meaty bones tonight. All my others are too. The pups look like engorged ticks! :smile:

I'm going to read up on the herbs and such tonight in my reference books. Thanks! Definitely need to add the gelatin and fish oils and maybe add more of the supplement per day given and back off aspirin and go from there. If he's not good with then I'll consider injections. 

My vet called back and I have an appointment for tomorrow at 9am to collect and check his general health. She said I might as well freeze the collection after evaluation as it's not much more in cost.


----------



## James Downey

Believe it or not we had good results with using Vitamin C also for joint problems. Water soluable so it's hard to overdo.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Connie Sutherland said:


> Bleeding ulcers and liver or kidney failure.
> 
> Again, these are possible side effects of all NSAIDs used on dogs, including aspirin. The best thing is to use them carefully, doing the pre-protocol and then regular repeated blood work (liver, pancreas, and kidney), and knowing the signs of GI problems (ulcer).


 bear with me, is that for Long term use or?

What about using it for short term, like prep/trial like say a week or so?

I ask because My male Pedro will be 10 in November and still competes.

Ivan sugested a year ago that it might help if he is stiff and what not?


Just wondering as he shows no real signs but ya know, he is an old man


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

I wanted to continue competing with my last GSD. At 8 1/2 I could see that she was slowing down. Adequan Injections worked wonders. As for Rimadyl, placed a corgi puppy. At 8 I guess he injured himself. The vet prescribed Rimadyl w/o any of the precautions. When I got the call I told them it sounded like toxicity and that they needed to get him to the emergency vet. They had taken him back due to certain symptoms. Vet increased the dose. He had every reaction symptom listed on the Rimadyl website. He died on the way to the emergency vet. All of this occurred over a two week period. 

I wasn't a fan of it before based on all of the reports, but now definately wouldn't use the stuff. 

Terrasita


----------



## Mike Jones

You should try giving your dog 2000 mg of Ester C. Ester C is a superior form of vitamin that the body metabolizes better. Ester C has been known to act a a soft tissue, cartilage & tendon re-builder. It as acts as a lubricant. When Ester C is used with other joint rehabilitative minerals like glucsomine, chondrotin, & MSM there has been remarkable results with dogs diagnosed with hip dysplasia. In fact, many working dog owners give this cocktail to their healthy dogs to ensure continued joint health and help with excessive stress on the joints from constant jumping and exposure to varied surfaces (like slick or hard surfaces).

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0039.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FKA/is_8_64/ai_89379602/

http://www.justamere.com/newsletter/vitaminC.asp


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

i second mikes post i have seen dogs struggle with HD then seen a major improvement with high doses of ester C


----------



## Kate Kueper

I have a 9.5 yr old GSD with arthritis and past ACL problems. In addition to her glucosomin suppliments, I started her in Adequan earlier this year. It has done wonders. Between the Adequan and the knee brace I got her, she is back to regular exercise and I rarely have to use an NSID. By the way, I use Prevacoxx and am quite happy with the results when I have to give it to her.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Is Emu Oil as good as Fish Oil? I have emu oil on hand.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I don't know whether I've missed something here, so pls forgive me if so. 

My Briard started showing slight signs of limping on and off, but nothing serious. However, I stopped IPO and started Swiss Schutzhund, slightly lower hurdles and in 3 none because at a trial in IPO, a judge told me the dog had problems jumping. He was slower in Schutzdienst, too, but his "mind" was still fast!

To cut a long story short, after hearing others say their Briards had "arthritis", I decided, either I keep him or not and, if I keep him, I want to know what's wrong with him. I had him X-rayed at the Zürich University but they made a bung-up and said he had Hip Dysplasia (X-rayed with none at 2 years).

I took him to a local vet and he examined him with his hands. The dog had Cauda Equina and then it was clear to me why he couldn't jump so well and race after the helper. He also called for the X-Rays from the Zürich University and, what was found out later (and not told to us) was that the dog had spinal problems.

After classic medical treatment was dismissed (too severe) - I tried alternative methods Bio-Resonance, 
Acupuncture (in my mind can be lethal - the dog feels no pain and starts jumping around again). So I took up homeopathic therapy and this helped him but I made sure he walked sedately with me. 

I actually wanted to put him to sleep after the diagnosis from the local vet. This dog was quiet at home but a raving lunatic when out. However, he didn't want to and I found a way to keep him happy (I hope). At 13,5 I had him PTS - kidney failure but he had 2 years after the diagnosis (or I had 2 years after the diagnosis).


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Kyle Sprag said:


> bear with me, is that for Long term use or?
> 
> What about using it for short term, like prep/trial like say a week or so?
> 
> I ask because My male Pedro will be 10 in November and still competes.
> 
> Ivan sugested a year ago that it might help if he is stiff and what not?
> 
> 
> Just wondering as he shows no real signs but ya know, he is an old man


If the dog has no liver or kidney problems, then the main thing I would be alert for is GI distress, which can happen immediately and be quite serious.

I'm not a health professional. JMO.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> Is Emu Oil as good as Fish Oil? I have emu oil on hand.



No. As I recall, it may have trace amounts of EPA and DHA, but the 3s in emu oil are mostly oleic acid and Linolenic acid. It's also heavy in 6s, and the idea is to modify the imbalance (between 6s and 3s) from modern grain-fed slaughter animals. (We, and our dogs, got lots of 3s naturally as recently as 100-200 years ago, but this is no longer the case for 99% of us.)

So you want long-chain 3s. Long-chain because dogs don't have the mechanism that humans have (and it isn't very good in humans, either) to convert the short-chain 3s from (for example) flax or canola to the DHA and EPA that are so beneficial. They need their DHA and EPA "on the hoof," so to speak, and that points to marine sources, in these times of big ag.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> Should I knot worry about giving too much fish oil if he is on a salmon based diet already?


I don't know. The question in my mind is, do the PUFAs survive the kibble process intact.

(The question would be much different if the dog ate fish every day rather than fish-based kibble.)

So I have been reading up on this (and unfortunately most of the studies and experiments are based on fish oil rather than actual fish) and so far have found that both high heat (think deep-frying fish) and long applications of heat cause the bulk of the DHA and EPA to be lost.

What I need to know now is: what temperature and length of baking time are used in the kibble process, and how many 3s are lost at that time/temp.

I'll get back to that tonight.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> No. As I recall, it may have trace amounts of EPA and DHA, but the 3s in emu oil are mostly oleic acid and Linolenic acid. It's also heavy in 6s, and the idea is to modify the imbalance (between 6s and 3s) from modern grain-fed slaughter animals. (We, and our dogs, got lots of 3s naturally as recently as 100-200 years ago, but this is no longer the case for 99% of us.)
> 
> So you want long-chain 3s. Long-chain because dogs don't have the mechanism that humans have (and it isn't very good in humans, either) to convert the short-chain 3s from (for example) flax or canola to the DHA and EPA that are so beneficial. They need their DHA and EPA "on the hoof," so to speak, and that points to marine sources, in these times of big ag.



I stopped and bought fish oil capsules on my way home from the vet while waiting for the answer as I figured I'd use them on somebody (maybe me) anyways.

Vet says semen is good and will give me an official analysis tonight.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> I stopped and bought fish oil capsules on my way home from the vet while waiting for the answer as I figured I'd use them on somebody (maybe me) anyways.
> 
> Vet says semen is good and will give me an official analysis tonight.



Capsules are mighty spendy when you have anything but a very small dog. You will probably want to go for liquid next time.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Ive always heard that the good fat in the food is the least stable part of it, so For a long time Ive put a little canola oil or olive oil on the kibble. I would think raw eggs would be very good, if it doesnt make them gassy.

With bull breeds in the past, Ive gone through bouts of poop-eating (disgusts me), so I never tried any fish oil on the food, thought that would lead to poop eating enthusiasm along the lines of whats seen only with a chubby lady at cinnabons.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Matt Grosch said:


> Ive always heard that the good fat in the food is the least stable part of it, so For a long time Ive put a little canola oil or olive oil on the kibble. I would think raw eggs would be very good, if it doesnt make them gassy.
> 
> With bull breeds in the past, Ive gone through bouts of poop-eating (disgusts me), so I never tried any fish oil on the food, thought that would lead to poop eating enthusiasm along the lines of whats seen only with a chubby lady at cinnabons.


I do add eggs since we have chickens and always have too many eggs.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Capsules are mighty spendy when you have anything but a very small dog. You will probably want to go for liquid next time.


I paid $6.00 for 200 1000mg capsules. I didn't see liquid, but I was at Walmart not a health food store too.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> I paid $6.00 for 200 1000mg capsules. I didn't see liquid, but I was at Walmart not a health food store too.



At that price, is it oil from a named fish? What brand is it? (I'm just curious; that's a pretty amazing price.)


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> At that price, is it oil from a named fish? What brand is it? (I'm just curious; that's a pretty amazing price.)


Spring Valley - Omega Fish Oil - 1000mg - softgels
Ingred: Fish Oil Concentrate, Gelatin Glycerin, Purified Water and Natural Mixed Tocopherols. Contains: Fish (anchovy, sardine); Soy.
99.9% purified fish oil
Manufactured by: Robinson Pharm, Inc, Santa Ana, CA

They were in a big center display on special so I grabbed them.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> Spring Valley - Omega Fish Oil - 1000mg - softgels
> Ingred: Fish Oil Concentrate, Gelatin Glycerin, Purified Water and Natural Mixed Tocopherols. Contains: Fish (anchovy, sardine); Soy.
> 99.9% purified fish oil
> Manufactured by: Robinson Pharm, Inc, Santa Ana, CA
> 
> They were in a big center display on special so I grabbed them.


I thought that was the one made by Ocean Nutrition Canada ... no? Are there two named Spring Valley, or is it maybe the _distributor_ in Santa Ana?

It's a proprietary blend, if it's the one I'm thinking of, and proprietary blend is a term I tend to steer clear of. However, in this case, I know it's not on any of the ConsumerLab or fish oil monograph bad lists, and that's a pretty amazing price.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> I thought that was the one made by Ocean Nutrition Canada ... no? Are there two named Spring Valley, or is it maybe the _distributor_ in Santa Ana?
> 
> It's a proprietary blend, if it's the one I'm thinking of, and proprietary blend is a term I tend to steer clear of. However, in this case, I know it's not on any of the ConsumerLab or fish oil monograph bad lists, and that's a pretty amazing price.



Just says Spring Valley - Says "Manufactured by: Robinson Pharma, Inc., Santa Ana, CA 92704 USA for more info please call 1-800-775-4962

If it's not good enough for my dogs, then I can just use it on myself! :-D


----------



## Meghan Rabon

I have to second the Joint Strong!
My parents have a newfie who tore her ACL several years ago and had surgery for it. The dog was on rimadyl and a glucosamine/chondroitin supplement for a year after the surgery, and she was in obvious pain. She had a really hard time getting up, and could hardly walk. I was living in Germany at the time and hadn't seen her since her injury.
When I got back and got the whole story, I told them to get her off the rimadyl ASAP and that I'd find something for her. I got them a tub of Joint Strong. 
Within a month or a month and a half the dog was running and playing, she could get up and you could just tell that she wasn't in misery anymore.

Earlier this year Annabel (the newf) started to be in pain again. She had all the same problems as before. My mom asked for advice...I asked her if she'd changed anything and she told me that she'd stopped giving her the Joint Strong about two weeks before she started to go downhill again. I told her to put the poor dog back on it, and within a few weeks she was back to feeling good again.
I know I sound like an advertisement but I am really amazed that Joint Strong did so much more for her than Rimadyl and the other supplements she was on!!
I have had my GSD with pretty nasty HD on it for the last couple of years. She's never shown any signs of pain but I hope it is helping somehow!

I also have my GSD on Ester-C and I avoid foods with potatoes in it, because they increase inflammation in joints. A lot of the grain-free foods use potatoes so I have been giving her raw. I'm not sure if the potato thing has been mentioned or not though.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Meghan Rabon said:


> I avoid foods with potatoes in it, because they increase inflammation in joints. A lot of the grain-free foods use potatoes so I have been giving her raw. I'm not sure if the potato thing has been mentioned or not though.


Inflammation from the deadly nightshade extended family seems to be pretty individual. Some humans, for example, have immediate reactions (joint pain) from eggplant, potatoes. etc., but some do not.

However, I agree that I would avoid potato with a joint-problem dog. There are alternatives in the no-grain commercial foods, such as sweet and red potatoes (not high in the alkaloid culprits in regular potatoes).


----------



## milder batmusen

I would try green lipped muzzel that is good for arthiritis 

and you can use a number og herbs that can relief the joints like 

http://www.iloveindia.com/indian-herbs/herbs-for-arthritis.html

and remember to use 
http://www.ultimatewatermassage.com/research-health/arthritis-minerals-msm.htm

I have given my dog the injections with carthrophen that is good to

and of course alot of omega 3.6 that good for pain and arhtritis


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Inflammation from the deadly nightshade extended family seems to be pretty individual. Some humans, for example, have immediate reactions (joint pain) from eggplant, potatoes. etc., but some do not.
> 
> However, I agree that I would avoid potato with a joint-problem dog. There are alternatives in the no-grain commercial foods, such as sweet and red potatoes (not high in the alkaloid culprits in regular potatoes).


Connie,
Innova EVO and Canidae Salmon - both are grain-free, but have potatoes and don't say which kinds so I assume the cheapest..russets. 

Which grain-free do you recommend. I think Innova products are still unavailable in France. I don't know about Canidae. Royal Canine is quite popular over there as well as Eukanuba, but last time I checked they didn't offer what I'm looking for "grain free" kibble.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

milder batmusen said:


> ... and of course alot of omega 3.6 that good for pain and arhtritis


No added 6.

Modern diets are overloaded with 6s, whether raw or commercial.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Skinner said:


> .... Innova EVO and Canidae Salmon - both are grain-free, but have potatoes .... Which grain-free do you recommend.



Wellness Core?


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wellness Core?


I'll check it out. Thanks. Ideally I want to put him on a kibble they can continue with over there.

BTW, should I be concerned in this day and age of "farm raised fish" where the manufacture's source is for their fish oil? The bottle I bought didn't say "wild caught" or "farm raised". I NEVER buy farmed raised fish at the market for myself. Even a lot of the shrimp is farm raised so I avoid it. I'm going into town and will stop at a Henry's (big health food and produce store). I'll see if they carry a fish oil that says "made from wild caught". Because if it's farm raised I'm assuming it's grain fed like the farm raised cattle, hogs, chickens. This is why I try to stock up on venison and elk from the butcher during the season. We are also raising our own chickens and lambs, but it's not a grand enough scale to feed the dogs. We feed a lot of forage and veggie, fruit scraps to the chickens and the sheep are on weeds/grass and grass hay.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Link us to the fish oil site.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Also, how long is his sojourn in France?


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Connie Sutherland said:


> Also, how long is his sojourn in France?


He's moving to France permanent for his retirement and to hook up with some French bitches!:grin:


----------



## Mike Jones

Debbie Skinner said:


> Is Emu Oil as good as Fish Oil? I have emu oil on hand.


I did not know that Emu oil was digestable. Have you tried it?


----------



## Matt Grosch

Regarding salmon and salmon oil (farmed)...



I personally try to avoid farmed salmon, they basically feed them dog food (oh the irony), the impurities are very high, and they have to dye them to give them color. I was at costco the other day and the whole wild caught salmon was cheaper than the farm raised fillets.


I would bet the walmart or costco/samsclub stuff would be cheapest (I would go online or call). For me I use the trader joes (mollecularly distilled) or what I have heard is the best quality from the health food store, Carlson's.

I wonder about canola oil

'Canola oil has been claimed to promote good health due to its very low saturated fat and high monounsaturated fat content, and beneficial omega-3 fatty acid profile.'


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola


----------



## Anna Kasho

How about Orijen? I remember reading it was available in europe?

I buy the costco Kirkland brand fish oil for me and the dogs. 400caps for about $10.00


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Matt Grosch said:


> ... I wonder about canola oil...





Connie Sutherland said:


> .... you want long-chain 3s. Long-chain because dogs don't have the mechanism that humans have (and it isn't very good in humans, either) to convert the short-chain 3s from (for example) flax or canola to the DHA and EPA that are so beneficial. They need their DHA and EPA "on the hoof," so to speak, and that points to marine sources, in these times of big ag.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Matt Grosch said:


> 'Canola oil has been claimed to promote good health due to its very low saturated fat and high monounsaturated fat content, and beneficial omega-3 fatty acid profile.'
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola


They are talking about human use. In that first link, about monounsaturated fats, see how the first mention is of cardiovascular disease prevention? Dogs don't have that. Dogs can have certain heart problems (mainly related to heart failure of one kind or another), but with very rare exceptions, they don't have what we call heart attacks (myocardial infarctions) or the clogged arteries usually to blame for an M.I. in a human.


----------



## Jack Krizman Jr

I give injections of Adequan about every 6 weeks to my 4 year old GSD (elbow dysplasia). It has worked wonders for him. Also did loading phase on him. 

I also give Glyco-Flex 3 as well as Cod Liver Oil.

NSAIDS such as Previcox, Deremax and Rimadyl are all very dangerous and your dog should be watched very closely on them (it can kill them). I won't give them to my dogs.

I had seen major side effects in about 2 days.


----------



## Connie Losee

I can't say enough about a product called "Missing Link". It really brought an old Doberman back from her being so bad, I was trying to bring myself to put her to sleep.

Stiff, chewing up her feet, no muscle tone. It took about 3 months from her really bad condition, but she got muscle, stopped chewing and her arthritis was about 80% better.

It will take a while though. Not overnight. If you choose this route, give it at least 3 months.

She lived to be 17, pretty darn old for a doby. I attribute the Missing Link for this as well.

Connie


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jack Krizman Jr said:


> .... NSAIDS such as Previcox, Deremax and Rimadyl are all very dangerous and your dog should be watched very closely on them (it can kill them)...


*And aspirin. 
*


Connie Sutherland said:


> Bleeding ulcers and liver or kidney failure. ... Again, these are possible side effects of all NSAIDs used on dogs, including aspirin. The best thing is to use them carefully, doing the pre-protocol and then regular repeated blood work (liver, pancreas, and kidney), and knowing the signs of GI problems (ulcer).


They can provide life quality where there was none, but they are indeed not something to give casually. I'm afraid that too many vets neglect to review the potential side effects with owners. 

I have a senior on Deramaxx, and he has regular blood draws to check against his pre-protocol values. I watched him very carefully for GI problems too.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Coming from a breed with such high rates of dysplaysia (80+%) you can probably imagine that I've tried just about just about everything = Vit C and E, MSM, SOD, Glycoflex, ascriptin, Yucca, fish oil, gelatin, raw feeding, grain free foods, Adeuqan injections, tramadol, rimadyl, enzymes, etc etc etc. 

Glycoflex, E, and Adequan are the ones that stand out as being the most effective. But above all, I found that keeping my dogs lean, even just by dropping a 3-5 lbs on an already fit dog coupled with keeping the dog moving/active were without question two components that I wouldn't do without. These last two cannot be under estimated or stated in value.


----------



## Louise Jollyman

My old boy is on Flexile Plus from B-Naturals (http://www.b-naturals.com/bertes-flexileplus-180-caps-p-56?cPath=22_23_11) - when I was living in England, I had it shipped over. He has a neck problem (spinal cord slightly pinched) but is not currently stiff. 

My old Golden Retriever did start to get stiff even on Flexile, so I moved him to GlycoFlex 3 which works really well for him. 

Both dogs are OFA Good hip-wise.



> Once I started watching bite work I thought it was a chiropractic/spine nightmare.


I was one of the first Schutzhund people in my are to take my dog to the chiropractor, and gave him a DVD of the work. He actually wasn't too worried about the bite work, but what worried him was the heeling, coupled with the neck compression when going for a tug, ball or the sleeve, my dogs axis was always twisted when I took him in, so I started to teach him to heel on the other side. 

The worst dog sports for the spine - Flyball - because the dogs always turn the same way, they get repetitive strain injury.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nicole Stark said:


> ... I found that keeping my dogs lean, even just by dropping a 3-5 lbs on an already fit dog coupled with keeping the dog moving/active were without question two components that I wouldn't do without. These last two cannot be under estimated or [over] stated in value.


Absolutely 100% ditto! 

A lean dog doing range-of-motion smooth exercising is going to fare best.

There is no other practical way to get needed synovial fluid into those affected joints.

I also do passive range-of-motion bicycling exercises on my OA senior. (He will now turn over on his back and stick his legs up, hinting.)


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Thanks everyone. 

I have internet access again after several days of hospital stay. My young filly tossed me and then struck me with a back hoof as she was bucking on Sunday afternoon. Not at all her fault as it was only her 2nd ride and I expected too much. I broke my own rules of training and went on a group trail ride with neighbors and didn't stick to the dirt roads as planned. I let them change the plan and am paying the price now.

I broke 5 ribs and punctured my right lung so I had to be admitted through last night with a chest tube. Now I'm home "high on Vicodin" so excuse my grammer. 

I did buy some liquid fish oil Saturday at Henrys. It is Carlson and says bottled in Norway. I'm taking it as well as Phantom. It has lemon added to it and isn't bad tasting. It was a lot more pricey than the Walmart fish capsules. I think it was $21 for a bottle (liquid). The rep said to use 1 teaspoon.

Also, I bought Boswellia for Phantom when I was at Henry's Market.

I'm going to order some Adequin for Phantom as well. I already talked to my vet about it when I took Phantom in last week for the semen evaluation and check up.


----------



## Lynn Cheffins

Holy Moly!  Hope you are feeling better soon


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Did you get a shot in ?? Or were you just flat punked by a horse ?? I got a bat around here somewhere I can send you.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Good lord, hope you're feeling better soon. I never had enough guts to do horses although I find them intriguing. As for the fish oil, Carlsons is considered one of the best. I use their oils and Ester C.

Terrasita


----------



## Anna Kasho

Ahhhh... Little things like that was probably why my mother took a firm stand against ANYTHING to do with horses or riding lessons when I went through the want-a-pony stage. I've been on a horse twice in my entire life. It was fun, and I still like the big beautiful animals, but I can't "read" them at all.

Hope you heal quickly and without complications. That really sucks.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Did you get a shot in ?? Or were you just flat punked by a horse ?? I got a bat around here somewhere I can send you.



No, but I got a 6" tube shoved into my chest cavity with just a local and some IV pain-killer. It was hooked to suction for 3 days so my lung could re-inflate. All antibiotics and pain-killers were given IV. 

Happened during my 2nd ride on "Vista" my young filly. She's the sooty buckskin at the bottom of this page: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/mares.htm

My fault as when the group I was riding with decided to go on difficult trails instead of sticking to the flatter dirt roads I didn't protest loud enough. She just got freaked on a steep hill and was bucking down it and I lost my seat and then she landed a hoof on my side. I don't blame her at all. It's my fault.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Anna Kasho said:


> Ahhhh... Little things like that was probably why my mother took a firm stand against ANYTHING to do with horses or riding lessons when I went through the want-a-pony stage. I've been on a horse twice in my entire life. It was fun, and I still like the big beautiful animals, but I can't "read" them at all.
> 
> Hope you heal quickly and without complications. That really sucks.


This happened because I pushed her too hard and it was more than she could handle. It was only her 2nd time under saddle (being ridden). Actually once around them, they are pretty easy to read. Making mistakes while training and/or riding can be much more painful and dangerous than errors made in dog training though! OUCH! I saw the signals, and should not of put her in the situation of going on difficult terrain (up and down slopes) when she was just getting used to carrying a human and listening to my leg and the rein signals.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Holy Moly!  Hope you are feeling better soon


Thanks! Pain-killers are my best friends right now.


----------



## Nicole Stark

WOW, you are lucky that it wasn't much worse. Thank God. Hope you are on the mend now.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Nicole Stark said:


> WOW, you are lucky that it wasn't much worse. Thank God. Hope you are on the mend now.


I thought it was just broken or fractured ribs at first as I've had those before. I've been riding and breaking horses since a teenager so I know that all the doctor does is x-ray and then send you home with pain-killers. 

I fell and got stomped on Sunday around noon and decided to take some Vicodin and tequila and wait it out thinking that Sunday evening Emergency would be a mad house. But, my breathing was "off" and so I went into urgent care the next morning. The doctors were freaking out that I waited so long and sent me directly to the Emergency for the surgery (tube).

Sure makes a bite from a dog seem like like child's play! I can't even laugh at myself because that's when it really hurts! LOL

I'm using the supplements that I bought for Phantom on myself as well. Also, I took Phantom's big toys away from him today (big ball and saddlebag tool box for small truck). He bites and drags the tool box around and attacks the ball as well and I'm thinking that he's being too rough on himself. I don't want to take all his fun away, but he plays so rough and it's hard on his body. He has plenty of bones to chew on so I hope this will be satisfying for him.


----------

