# Clicker Training is not just for Sissies! (for Jeff)



## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff--dogs don't understand English.

Clicker-type training is just a way to communicate to the dog that he's doing the right thing. Many trainers use it exclusively & do not use corrections--that's going to get you a very spoiled, disobedient, discontented & possibly aggressive dog. When a combination of clicker & corrections is used, the marker means that:

The dog did the right thing.
Something good might be going to happen
There's not going to be a correction-this relieves stress so the dog can relax
Increases the dog's attention-he wants to possible get a reward & he wants to avoid corrections so he going to pay close attention to your commands.
Changes his perception-for example-if you use the ear pinch for the retrieve-your dog might not like his ears touched. To remedy this start bridging & touch his ear briefly-then gradually increase the time you touch his ears. Once he understands bridging (clicker-type training) he'll relax because he understands that there's not going to be any pinching.


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

My 11 month old daughter doesn't understand english either, it's my job to teach her to understand it. Teaching a verbal (english) marker is no different than teaching a mechanical marker (clicker). I'm pretty sure Jeff does marker training. The fundamentals are no different, there is nothing magical about the clicker.

I guess my point is....What the heck was the point of your post:-s:?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Nathen Danforth said:


> My 11 month old daughter doesn't understand english either, it's my job to teach her to understand it. Teaching a verbal (english) marker is no different than teaching a mechanical marker (clicker). I'm pretty sure Jeff does marker training. The fundamentals are no different, there is nothing magical about the clicker.
> 
> I guess my point is....What the heck was the point of your post:-s:?


If you read his post below, I'm pretty sure he doesn't use marker training. I didn't want to hijack the thread below. If no ones interested in the post, it will disappear anyway.


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

I am probably going to get myself into trouble speaking for Jeff but I believe his problem isn't with marker training but rather the people who think everything can be fixed with a click and a treat, ya know like a dog coming up the leash at you...which it seems that was the context of his comments....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You are exactly right Nathan.

Sue, don't be a dipshit and tell me that you actually think that a clicker is going to help you with the situation Lee has. Are you kidding me ?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are exactly right Nathan.
> 
> Sue, don't be a dipshit and tell me that you actually think that a clicker is going to help you with the situation Lee has. Are you kidding me ?


Jeff--I said there are better ways to deal with an aggressive dog than beating him. IMO, growling doesn't mean an attack is going to occur.

Then you had, as only you can do, had a sh1t fit, & specifically attacked clicker training when that wasn't even an issue. 

I get from your posts if you can't beat a dog into submission, then he should be put down. Well, you know, everyone wants a dog with lots of drive, courage & aggression. But when you come to the point that you can't beat the dog into submission anymore because he's too much for you & you don't have any other ideas except beating him then you blame the dog & say he should be put down.

It doesn't matter to me what you think about marker training, but I sort of do care about people asking advice & and when a number of people have differing opionions, they're ridiculed by you as if they were nuts. Well, I think your advice is nuts & I pity that dog & that's why I responded.

Just to let you know what I think how to train-it takes more than dominance. You can strap on a collar & correct the dog to death & he will respond & he will work to avoid the correction but if the corrections aren't balanced with understanding that dog is going to show the same disobedience & aggressive tendencies again in the future.

A dog will show aggression when he is frustrated enough or fearful enough. When you try to manhandle an aggressive dog you're in for a world of hurt. It's better to put an e-collar on the dog, muzzle him & have 2 leashes on him (one leash tied to fence or someone else controlling the second leash). That's when the understanding & marker training comes into play. But there's no point in a big physical man/dog fight. The dog needs to be clear what's right & what's wrong-you can't do that without marker training. You always refer to treats & food like that's all that's involved with marker training-that leads me to believe you don't understand much about it....

I know you're condescending towards women-I loved those comments you made about the Michael Ellis tug video--what you think dogs can only be trained by men? That says alot about you Jeff. Also, you are the type of person who when someone disagrees with them, you start shouting about personal issues that have no place on a mb--get some class.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Then you had, as only you can do, had a sh1t fit,

No, I don't have shit fits. 

Quote: specifically attacked clicker training when that wasn't even an issue. 

I absolutely disagree after reading everything that Lee has said about this dog that clicker training is the answer. I also think that people with no actual experience are answering with foolish things like clicker train.

Quote: but I sort of do care about people asking advice & and when a number of people have differing opionions, they're ridiculed by you as if they were nuts. 

Yes, that is how it works, people with no experience other than their pet fluffy say retarded things, and I make fun of them. You are right. How many dogs have handed you your ass ? I don't mean snapped at you, but attacked you, and did not stop till you stopped them ?

Quote: 
Just to let you know what I think how to train-it takes more than dominance.

I am not training. This has nothing to do with training, this is not fluffy please sit for me. This is a challenge to Lee's right to be in the same house. 

Quote: A dog will show aggression when he is frustrated enough or fearful enough.

Which shows that you did not read what he wrote. WHat you just wrote has nothing at all to do with his situation.

Quote: When you try to manhandle an aggressive dog you're in for a world of hurt.

No I am not. Do you have any idea how large a person I am ? What is a dog going to do, bite me ? They are just not large enough to put me in a world of hurt.

Quote: I know you're condescending towards women

No, I am a realist. A 60 year old woman that is 60 pounds overweight with a high drive 8 month old puppy is going to make a huge mess of things. What part of that did you not get ? Did you see any improvement in the work afterwards ? lol I am condescending to the idiot that thought that at their age, and their physical conditioning, that they thought it was a good idea to get a Mal, or GSD. 

I have seen guys that cannot train for shit, but nowhere near the numbers that I have seen in 60+ yr old women....... which is what I was talking about.

Quote: you start shouting about personal issues that have no place on a mb--get some class.

I was shouting ? Did you say that in hopes that would make your point better ? I don't shout, not in real life, not here. Class ? What does that have to do with anything other than a cheap attempt to insult me ? If I had no class, I would let the morons say whatever they wanted to, especially dangerous things like "use clicker and marker training" on the dog that is looking at you like his dog is over nothing.


I find it amusing what people think are strong dogs. The dogs that I have had experience that were what I consider strong, are not going to challenge their owners when they are sick, over silly in the house stuff.

THat dog would not live in my house. Love is a two way street, and while I do not know if a dog really loves or not, what Lee is going through is a dead dog in my house.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If you read his post below, I'm pretty sure he doesn't use marker training

Try and pay attention. Go look at my videos of Esko. What would you call that ? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

And you want to give advice to other people ? Shame on you. The greatest sin is stupidity.


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

It seems everything Jeff said was contextually accurate. I think people often take his comments out of the context to which they were applied. It makes it really easy to make an ass of yourself when that is done.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I think Lee should forget the aggression. Dogs read people very well and he is feeding off of Lee. Lee, get you mind set in the "I am sorry buddy mode" and go sit in a comfortable chair. Call the dog over to you and get his front end up in your lap. Just calmly talk to him and explain what is going on and reassure him it is going to be allright. It was all clear as a bell when you said the dog started carrying on with the female. He was hoping she could explain it to you better than he could. If by chance he doesn't seem to respond well, I would seriously suggest getting him off your lap.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No mark him as he is face to face with you sitting snarling, and hope to God he gets it ??? LOL I wonder why I try with some people sometimes.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yes, mark him with an airhorn right in his face.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think Lee should forget the aggression. Dogs read people very well and he is feeding off of Lee. Lee, get you mind set in the "I am sorry buddy mode" and go sit in a comfortable chair. Call the dog over to you and get his front end up in your lap. Just calmly talk to him and explain what is going on and reassure him it is going to be allright. It was all clear as a bell when you said the dog started carrying on with the female. He was hoping she could explain it to you better than he could. If by chance he doesn't seem to respond well, I would seriously suggest getting him off your lap.


Don, my question is do you play any mood music (Like Barry White or Micheal Buble) in the back ground as you are doing this?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

_Quote: A dog will show aggression when he is frustrated enough or fearful enough.

Which shows that you did not read what he wrote. WHat you just wrote has nothing at all to do with his situation_

I did read what he wrote. I read that Whiskey has changed & is challenging Lee. Why is that--it's either that he's frustrated that he's not getting the attention or exercise he used to get. I'm not sure how much training Whiskey has had since he had the perfect life before. I'm not sure much training was needed so how much control was needed. Did you know that an aggressive dog is less aggressive when he's tired.

He might be fearful because Lee said he uses the e-collar--that's not too good if you don't know how to use the e-collar correctly--it's too easy to push the button. When a dog can't control the stimulation, he'll reach a point where he either crumbles or attacks.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Sue, 

I'm curious. Have you ever had a dog challenge you? A situation where you wanted to put a dog in a crate or not allow through him the door etc. and he gave you the look or a growl. If so how did you respond?


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## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

Sue Miller said:


> _Quote: A dog will show aggression when he is frustrated enough or fearful enough._
> 
> _Which shows that you did not read what he wrote. WHat you just wrote has nothing at all to do with his situation_
> 
> ...


Again, you seem to be giving human qualities to this dog, he is not being vindictive. Dogs don't plot revenge because you didn't run them this week, therefor they growl at you until you do. 

Do you have a better way to explain what you are trying to say?

Also, I don't know Lee personally but going on what many people on this board have said, I am going to say, his use of a e-collar is probably just fine.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No mark him as he is face to face with you sitting snarling, and hope to God he gets it ??? LOL I wonder why I try with some people sometimes.


You know Jeff, I've never seen you post a good training tip--you just insult & belittle everyone. I watched that one video of you using markers-not really that impressive. Anyway-you make this board less hospitable to people trying to learn. If you say it's a "working dog board" then let's hear some "working dog" tips from you.... Besides getting into hand to teeth combat with a big DS


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey Sue,

You may have missed it. Could you answer my question?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Don, my question is do you play any mood music (Like Barry White or Micheal Buble) in the back ground as you are doing this?


Yes I would Shane. Probably, "My Prayer" by the Platters. The Platters have some of the best music that has ever graced a 45 disc.

Outstanding music, Question....Who is Barry White and Michael Buble? What kind of music.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> _Quote: A dog will show aggression when he is frustrated enough or fearful enough.
> 
> Which shows that you did not read what he wrote. WHat you just wrote has nothing at all to do with his situation_
> 
> ...



So the dog controls the stimulation . That's a new one to me . Do you have much knowledge in e-collars or do you just regurgitate what others have told you about it ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have a question. As I understand it this dog has never been exposed to marker training. In this respect it is a green dog. I also understand from other discussions, to begin marker training, you have to charge the words so they have meaning to the dog. This takes several day. Then possibly you can try some marking. Is this really a great idea with a dog that is thinking about usurping your authority?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> You know Jeff, I've never seen you post a good training tip--you just insult & belittle everyone. I watched that one video of you using markers-not really that impressive. Anyway-you make this board less hospitable to people trying to learn. If you say it's a "working dog board" then let's hear some "working dog" tips from you.... Besides getting into hand to teeth combat with a big DS


Sue, I have to agree with Jeff here. There is a great deal of difference between training a dog an exercise routine using clickers and dealing with a dominant hander aggressive dog. Clicker people are like the Jehovahs Witnesses of the dog training world.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> Sue,
> 
> I'm curious. Have you ever had a dog challenge you? A situation where you wanted to put a dog in a crate or not allow through him the door etc. and he gave you the look or a growl. If so how did you respond?


I wouldn't train a strange dog without knowing his triggers & working through them with muzzle on. I would train basic obedience & then work through their individual issues.

My gsd challenges me.. He had extreme crate aggression & he would fight me when it was crate time. I used perception modification for the crate aggression--make sure he's hungry-walk by & say "Hi Quinn" & give him some food. Gradually I faded the food & just say "Hi Quinn" when I walk by. It worked.

Quinn is taken out every morning & night to the park to run & play. Training is structured play. When it's time for him to get into the van, I tell him to load up, he runs to the van & goes into the crate--then I release him-it's a game he loves. When it's really time for him to go into his crate I tell him to "go in" & sometimes I give him a piece of food sometimes not--he goes in all the time without protest. When we get home he's fed & put into his crate. He's also trained during the day at different periods. 

Another problem was with the retieve-for the "calm hold" I used Ivan's method which is tap him under the chin--I went to far with that & Quinn didn't like it. Then I thought I'd use the ear pinch & I went to far with that--he's not a dog that you can do that to. He avoided my hand-if I had forced it, he would have bitten me. I had to change his perception so I would start bridging him (he understands bridging) & touch his ear or touch under his chin-then release him. I increasded the time I touched his ears & under his chin, then I had to work on the dumbbell association-I let him voluntarily take it now instead of forcing him.

Another instance--corrections don't phase him. Tiekerhook (his breeder) breeds hard dogs to take a hard correction. Of course there's a point that he will respond to a correction but he's not like any other dog I've ever worked or seen worked. I don't want to go there (to the point he goes into avoidance). Somehow he started sitting slow--it wasn't disobedience, he learned it & it's much harder to retrain a behavior & then train it the right way. I've always used corrections if positive motivation didn't work-but this dog just looks at me without reaction when he's given a correction. He won't be manhandled either. So, I'm sure everyone's starting to yawn here, he has a kong on a rope. When the kongs in his mouth I'll tell him to sit & manipulate him with the rope to sit on his haunches so his butt hits the ground. Immediately, I'll mark the behavior (there's those silly markers again) & run & he loves to run & tug. So, he's sitting correctly without extreme corrections & without manhandling.


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## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

Are you comparing your 8 (?) month old puppy barking in his crate to an (obviously) older male who has begun to challenge his owner?

Is the aggression going to be the same, intensity wise?


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes I would Shane. Probably, "My Prayer" by the Platters. The Platters have some of the best music that has ever graced a 45 disc.
> 
> Outstanding music, Question....Who is Barry White and Michael Buble? What kind of music.


hahaha that is Hilarious Don! I am dying!

Barry is (I think classified) kindof an r&b singer and Michael is a throw back to alot of big band stuff Frank Sinatra style music. He is very talented!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

All the term "hard dog" means is the dog is resilient, he can work through corrections, gets the message, without reacting negatively. This means if the dog is "hard" he won't spaz out and come up the leash and bite the handler and at the other end of the spectrum, won't wilt away into a puddle of doggy self-pitty when physically corrected.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Sue, I have to agree with Jeff here. There is a great deal of difference between training a dog an exercise routine using clickers and dealing with a dominant hander aggressive dog. Clicker people are like the Jehovahs Witnesses of the dog training world.


I don't use a clicker-I use bridge & target which is I guess similar to clickers but much more practical. I use my voice to mark the behavior & to bridge the dog. My training is crystal clear to the dog-before he is corrected, he knows exactly what is expected of him & acceptable. When the dog knows what you want, then physical corrections mean something because the dog understands why he is being corrected. It is nothing more than a communication tool. Communication is not a DIRTY WORD!


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Niomi Smith said:


> Are you comparing your 8 (?) month old puppy barking in his crate to an (obviously) older male who has begun to challenge his owner?
> 
> Is the aggression going to be the same, intensity wise?


When he started this he wasn't a puppy.... Don't know where you got that he's an 8-month-old puppy-he's about 18 months old now. Do you know what you're talking about?

Here's some video of my competition dog who's almost 9 years old-trained by me since he was 9-weeks-old. Guess what, he's aggressive & he was trained with bridge & target. Some of the audio has been taken out because I'm laughing like a maniac in the background because he's having such a good time. We live in a somewhat remote area now & he's my protector--I feel very safe  He hasn't had any grips or training sessions in 2 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28AYBBMx1sQ


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Here's another fun video of a wussy "clicker dog" trained with bridge & target.

http://www.youtube.com/user/dpmrfoxx


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Here's that stupid clicker dog again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx71TIVQGyI


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Shane Woodlief said:


> hahaha that is Hilarious Don! I am dying!
> 
> Barry is (I think classified) kind of an r&b singer and Michael is a throw back to alot of big band stuff Frank Sinatra style music. He is very talented!


I love the big band era. The Dorsey's, Duke Ellington. Back down memory lane. LOL Jo Stafford, Patty Page, Nat King Cole. I got all that stuff on CD up through a four disk set of the Kingston Trio. I quit listening to the radio when the Beatle's came on the scene about 1963. I got all the CD's but no cd player. Not to derail a good argument here. But I used to sit on the deck and drink to Earnest Tubbs, Conway Twiity, Dave Houston, Faron Young and all those boys. I am going to get a player. I think I will fix a drink.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Here's that stupid "clicker" non-aggressive dog again. The video starts out at 9-months-old through 2 years old. He's the same 9-year-old dog in the first video above. All trained with Bridge & Target.
http://www.blip.tv/file/583338/


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> All trained with Bridge & Target.
> http://www.blip.tv/file/583338/


 
The music ..if that is in fact is music, is the focal point of the video.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Here's Jackie Boy--he's a relative to Mr. Foxx--we got him because he was uncontrollable at 5-years-old. He's almost 10 now. He was retrained with guess what --Bridge & Target & guess what I used perception modification to help him with his problems. He's happy & healthy & livin the life in Las Vegas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPPnlB7AI1U


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The music ..if that is in fact music, is the focal point of the video.


Simple solution, turn down the volume


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## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

Sue Miller said:


> When he started this he wasn't a puppy.... Don't know where you got that he's an 8-month-old puppy-he's about 18 months old now. *Do you know what you're talking about?*
> 
> Here's some video of my competition dog who's almost 9 years old-trained by me since he was 9-weeks-old. Guess what, he's aggressive & he was trained with bridge & target. Some of the audio has been taken out because I'm laughing like a maniac in the background because he's having such a good time. We live in a somewhat remote area now & he's my protector--I feel very safe  He hasn't had any grips or training sessions in 2 years.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28AYBBMx1sQ


I was making a sarcastic comparison...

Also, I asked a few questions a while back about the dog being vindictive, could you please re-state what you were trying to say without humanizing the dogs feelings?

Thanks!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> Simple solution, turn down the volume


Simpler solution, turn down the suck.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Sue Miller said:


> _Quote: A dog will show aggression when he is frustrated enough or fearful enough.
> 
> Which shows that you did not read what he wrote. WHat you just wrote has nothing at all to do with his situation_
> 
> ...



....the dog didnt change...Lee changed....and therefor the dog responded to that change with a challenge.....


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> ....the dog didnt change...Lee changed....and therefor the dog responded to that change with a challenge.....


 So Lee has to show him there's a new reality--physically fighting the dog is the last option I would suggest.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Simpler solution, turn down the suck.


Just wondering what you think sucks? I would love to hear your opinions.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> Just wondering what you think sucks? I would love to hear your opinions.


The music.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Niomi Smith said:


> I was making a sarcastic comparison...
> 
> Also, I asked a few questions a while back about the dog being vindictive, could you please re-state what you were trying to say without humanizing the dogs feelings?
> 
> Thanks!


 Can you watch the videos & make some more sarcastic comparisons? I would love to hear your opinions on why the dog in the video is obeying me & listening to everything I say. Is he not aggressive enough for you to be considered a challenge to train?

There's no humanizing dog's feelings in the way I train dogsl-can you explain where I humanize a dog with anything I've said so far?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: You know Jeff, I've never seen you post a good training tip--you just insult & belittle everyone.

What was I thinking, you know everything, and I am completely wrong. I have never posted a training tip, not even sure what that is, I usually tip 30 or 40%. 

Sadly, my advice for him is good. I have seen most of your Donovan Pincher or whatever you are calling that breed this month, and he is not impressive, and is enough dog to do the job. The fact that you think he challenged you cracks me up. I seriously do not see you dancing around a kennel holding on to a dog by the skin of his head while you attempt to get him under control long enough to get a better grip.

All I see is someone who is insistent that her method will work, but no actual experience to back it up.

Mr Foxx challenged you ? LOL To what, tiddly winks ?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28AYBBMx1sQ


What kind of dog is that ??


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What kind of dog is that ??

Weak.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: You know Jeff, I've never seen you post a good training tip--you just insult & belittle everyone.
> 
> What was I thinking, you know everything, and I am completely wrong. I have never posted a training tip, not even sure what that is, I usually tip 30 or 40%.
> 
> ...


Whatever Jeff! Just a comment-I'm a smart enough trainer not to get into a position with an aggressive dog where I'm going to fight with him. I don't care what you think of Mr. Foxx. In Mondio, doesn't the helper correct the dog during training? What's up with that? Wouldn't a real dog respond by fighting back instead of submitting to the helper? Just a stupid question from a stupid Bridge & Target trainer. Another stupid question-why does your dog look unhappy in all the videos? Looks like he doesn't like you much  Do you have to beat him up often?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What kind of dog is that ??


Both brindle dogs (Foxx & Jackie Boy) are Donovan Pinschers.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee, has the dog had a check up recently? Sounds like he may just be a little grumpy because he doesn't feel good.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: In Mondio, doesn't the helper correct the dog during training? What's up with that? Wouldn't a real dog respond by fighting back instead of submitting to the helper?



Oh, the "real" dog arguement. LOL Again, weak.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: In Mondio, doesn't the helper correct the dog during training? What's up with that? Wouldn't a real dog respond by fighting back instead of submitting to the helper?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, the "real" dog arguement. LOL Again, weak.


 We're talking about "real" aggressive dogs Jeff-aren't we? When you say Foxx is "weak" what do you mean? I think a "weak" dog lets a helper correct him & boss him around


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Another stupid question-why does your dog look unhappy in all the videos? Looks like he doesn't like you much.

Honestly, who cares ? You are mis-reading this situation so badly, what are the odds that you have any idea of what happy is in a dog ? I mean seriously, is that the best you got, my dog looks unhappy ? Which dog ? Post the video so I know who is unhappy in my house. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I think a "weak" dog lets a helper correct him & boss him around


Mr Foxx couldn't handle the pressure of a helper correcting him, and neither could you. 

Tell us again about Mr Foxx challenging you. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHA


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Lee, has the dog had a check up recently? Sounds like he may just be a little grumpy because he doesn't feel good.


Maybe a case of "LOW T".


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

This is getting silly here! Let's talk about Foxx's videos Jeff--where do you see "weak". What do you consider "weak"?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Maybe a case of "LOW T".


How goes it Lee, I just thought I would throw in the health angle and get it over with. Low T??? Wouldn't be Tolerance would it?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> All the term "hard dog" means is the dog is resilient, he can work through corrections, gets the message, without reacting negatively. This means if the dog is "hard" he won't spaz out and come up the leash and bite the handler and at the other end of the spectrum, won't wilt away into a puddle of doggy self-pitty when physically corrected.


+1


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> I think a "weak" dog lets a helper correct him & boss him around


Oh Sue. Disapointing.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

What exactly was I ment to be impressed by again? Was it the clickers fault he was loosing his grips on the sleeve? Or was it your use of clicker that gave him slow entries?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> Oh Sue. Disapointing.
> 
> Tamara McIntosh


You know, I can admit when I'm wrong because I don't know about Ring. Why does the dog let the helper correct him during training if the dog is a dominant aggressive dog which is what I thought we were talking about here. I've only talked to people who say that dogs without much prey drive don't do as well in ring.

During ring is the reason the dog takes & obeys a correction from the helper because he's only allowed to attack when he obeys the rules & those rules are to obey the helper? Not trying to be a jerk....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, I've read through both threads and Sue thinks that doing some training sessions with mark and reward yet using E-collar corrections is gonna give the dog the activity he needs so he will return to the growly, yet compliant dog he was instead of the growly and non-compliant dog he is now? How? Do you actually use e-collars with Bridge and Target training? That doesn't make KC cringe? You really think popping a cookie negates the stress of a correction given just a few moments earlier? You don't want him to have a come to jesus but he can buzz him as long as he is popping cookies. What happens when he says to hell with the cookies and the buzz?

Terrasita
Who has zero tolerance for bite or growl at the hand that feeds you. As long as we have that understanding, you can live here and we can enjoy marker training.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I watched your videos.

On this video http://www.blip.tv/file/583338/
is that Josh working the dog on the pole at the beginning? It's not very clear video but it's totally his style.

Laura


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I love the big band era. The Dorsey's, Duke Ellington. Back down memory lane. LOL Jo Stafford, Patty Page, Nat King Cole. I got all that stuff on CD up through a four disk set of the Kingston Trio. I quit listening to the radio when the Beatle's came on the scene about 1963. I got all the CD's but no cd player. Not to derail a good argument here. But I used to sit on the deck and drink to Earnest Tubbs, Conway Twiity, Dave Houston, Faron Young and all those boys. I am going to get a player. I think I will fix a drink.


Don, NO CD PLAYER either???? jesus....LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> We're talking about "real" aggressive dogs Jeff-aren't we? When you say Foxx is "weak" what do you mean? I think a "weak" dog lets a helper correct him & boss him around


I am not picking sides here. But I had to comment on this.

Clear headed dogs that have worked with a fair helper a bunch of times more often than not, will come to trust their training helper, and allow him to guide the dog, and administer corrections. Especially in a sport training setting.

Dogs learn to play by the rules.They realize their training helper is HELPING THEM, he is not the dogs mortal enemy. It is called COMMUNICATION..

Watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSWvJkq139g

In the beginning, the dog zeroed in another person, standing off to the side, that had done muzzle work with her. I can only assume that would not have went well for him, if the helper in the blind did not get the dogs attention.

Notice that the dog responds to the helpers corrections, and god forbid, his commands. And he even slips the sleeve and takes the leash. (sleevesucker??)

I am not sure how tough your dogs are, but if this dog is weak to you, you must have some REAL MONSTERS...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8

Disclaimer: I am not saying this dog is the toughest dog on the planet, but far from weak... she is a very "real" dog with real aggression.
I also know many people are not fans of letting helpers correct their dog, but I allow it, becuase I am new to the sport, and it is more efficient to let the helper HELP, since he is trusted by the dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Can you watch the videos & make some more sarcastic comparisons? I would love to hear your opinions on why the dog in the video is obeying me & listening to everything I say.


http://www.blip.tv/file/583338/

My opinion is....... the dog is NOT obeying you & listening to everything you say...since you asked
just sayin.....;-)


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Wasnt that Michalek floating around in the background of your scottsdale video.....nothing to do with the post.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Wasnt that Michalek floating around in the background of your scottsdale video.....nothing to do with the post.



The trial vids? I was the trial secretary


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think Lee should forget the aggression. Dogs read people very well and he is feeding off of Lee. Lee, get you mind set in the "I am sorry buddy mode" and go sit in a comfortable chair. Call the dog over to you and get his front end up in your lap. Just calmly talk to him and explain what is going on and reassure him it is going to be allright. It was all clear as a bell when you said the dog started carrying on with the female. He was hoping she could explain it to you better than he could. If by chance he doesn't seem to respond well, I would seriously suggest getting him off your lap.


 
This can’t hurt to try. May contribute to helping avoid the show down or making the corrections Lee needs to give less severe to get things back under control. WTF do I know though


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Here's Jackie Boy--he's a relative to Mr. Foxx--we got him because he was uncontrollable at 5-years-old. He's almost 10 now. He was retrained with guess what --Bridge & Target & guess what I used perception modification to help him with his problems. He's happy & healthy & livin the life in Las Vegas
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPPnlB7AI1U


 
Correct me if im wrong but this is you’re typical over weight old lady and her normal ball catching dog in the park? What does this have to do with Lees dog eating him? I am a bit slow and Im just not getting it?
By the way I promise you the lady doesn’t think the extra 100 pounds contributed in any way to the incident that lead up the cast on the leg


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Here's that stupid "clicker" non-aggressive dog again. The video starts out at 9-months-old through 2 years old. He's the same 9-year-old dog in the first video above. All trained with Bridge & Target.
> http://www.blip.tv/file/583338/


This is a video of nothing absolutely nothing.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Just wondering what you think sucks? I would love to hear your opinions.


 
What’s good about it?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Sue, I have to agree with Jeff here. There is a great deal of difference between training a dog an exercise routine using clickers and dealing with a dominant hander aggressive dog. Clicker people are like the Jehovahs Witnesses of the dog training world.


This is funny as shit. Do you mean you can slam the door in the face of clicker people and they will pray for you? Maybe Sue should pray for Jeff? I think we all should pray for Lee, he is gona get his ass eaten


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> When he started this he wasn't a puppy.... Don't know where you got that he's an 8-month-old puppy-he's about 18 months old now. Do you know what you're talking about?
> 
> Here's some video of my competition dog who's almost 9 years old-trained by me since he was 9-weeks-old. Guess what, he's aggressive & he was trained with bridge & target. Some of the audio has been taken out because I'm laughing like a maniac in the background because he's having such a good time. We live in a somewhat remote area now & he's my protector--I feel very safe  He hasn't had any grips or training sessions in 2 years.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28AYBBMx1sQ


This dog is an out of shape slob, and I don’t believe for a minute you took out the audio because you were laughing. When the audio comes back in there is no indication in the tone of your voice that you were doing anything but giving commands he was not listing to. Are clicker trained dogs more prone to having that wimpy little puppy bark even at 9 years old?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> Sue,
> 
> I'm curious. Have you ever had a dog challenge you? A situation where you wanted to put a dog in a crate or not allow through him the door etc. and he gave you the look or a growl. If so how did you respond?


She throws a treat in the crate and waits an hour for the dog to finally go in the crate then she clicks. Dog will be fully trained when it is 30 years old, should only take a half hour then.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> _Quote: A dog will show aggression when he is frustrated enough or fearful enough._
> 
> _Which shows that you did not read what he wrote. WHat you just wrote has nothing at all to do with his situation_
> 
> ...


Did you ever notice that everyone thinks there the only one who knows how to use an e-collar the right way?


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> You know, I can admit when I'm wrong because I don't know about Ring. Why does the dog let the helper correct him during training if the dog is a dominant aggressive dog which is what I thought we were talking about here. I've only talked to people who say that dogs without much prey drive don't do as well in ring.
> 
> During ring is the reason the dog takes & obeys a correction from the helper because he's only allowed to attack when he obeys the rules & those rules are to obey the helper? Not trying to be a jerk....


Sue,

The decoy is a partner to the dog during training, not an adversary. Or a sparring partner if you will. The decoy teaches the dog the rules for combat and so long as the dog plays within the rules all is good. It is far more efficient to have the decoy correct/guide the dog, because the decoy is the one with the dog (handler could be 40m away). The decoy sees a much clearer picture than the handler while in the fight. As you know from clicker training it is important to communicate to the dog immediately upon the behaviour rather than inducing a lag from the handler.

Think of the dog interacting with the decoy like an MMA fighter and his trainer. The trainer show the fighter moves and counters, and the fighter takes direction and potentially correction from the trainer. When fight day comes, the fighter does not view the opponent as someone that corrects/trains them, they see them as an adversary.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Clicker people are like the Jehovahs Witnesses of the dog training world.

The worst EVER are the raw feeders that have that ecstasy reaction whenever they start talking about how great their dogs look, eyes rolling back in to their heads Shreiking 7% of the body weight urglurglurgl.

**** them, these fat refrigerator snacking, old stale armpit smelling mother****ers. Waddling to the freezer in the back of the garage to throw their dogs a frozen cow leg so they won't have to be bothered for a few days. All the while mumbling how great the dogs teeth look and almost falling over from their eyes rolling back in their head dizziness.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Clicker people are like the Jehovahs Witnesses of the dog training world.
> 
> The worst EVER are the raw feeders that have that ecstasy reaction whenever they start talking about how great their dogs look, eyes rolling back in to their heads Shreiking 7% of the body weight urglurglurgl.
> 
> **** them, these fat refrigerator snacking, old stale armpit smelling mother****ers. Waddling to the freezer in the back of the garage to throw their dogs a frozen cow leg so they won't have to be bothered for a few days. All the while mumbling how great the dogs teeth look and almost falling over from their eyes rolling back in their head dizziness.



I think you're a little off on that one Jeff. Every raw food guy I have met talks about how good his dog's shit looks. 

"Ah look at that... it's so hard and compact. That's what Raw will do for ya"

"Oh look, somebody else feeds raw, I can tell by the poop"

"now that's a nice turd. I don't even have to pick it up because it will turn to dirt"


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Clicker people are like the Jehovahs Witnesses of the dog training world.
> 
> The worst EVER are the raw feeders that have that ecstasy reaction whenever they start talking about how great their dogs look, eyes rolling back in to their heads Shreiking 7% of the body weight urglurglurgl.


That's EXACTLY the response I had when I read that line too!! There's a reason they call it BARF:
Born Again Raw Feeder

Laura


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Clicker people are like the Jehovahs Witnesses of the dog training world.
> 
> The worst EVER are the raw feeders that have that ecstasy reaction whenever they start talking about how great their dogs look, eyes rolling back in to their heads Shreiking 7% of the body weight urglurglurgl.
> 
> **** them, these fat refrigerator snacking, old stale armpit smelling mother****ers. Waddling to the freezer in the back of the garage to throw their dogs a frozen cow leg so they won't have to be bothered for a few days. All the while mumbling how great the dogs teeth look and almost falling over from their eyes rolling back in their head dizziness.


I don't mind it so much if along with all the preaching they also take care of themselves in the same way . 

Just something about getting a lecture about how I'm neglecting my dog's health by not feed raw from someone who it's apparent doesn't care as much for about feeding themselves a healthy meal .


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This is some good stuff. Although I got some horse’s ass and other stuff in my freezer the main diet is kibble. I think I stopped looking into feeding raw because I didn’t want to be labeled “one of them” . 
If were gona label dog people I cant stand the “why don’t you get one from the shelter” people. I got a quick simple answer to all these dogs suffering in the shelters, but I don’t think they want to hear it.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Ha, ha--new all-time low for this mb!

Lee-just look at the characters trying to give you advice.... Real cool guys!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

On a lighter note... sue i remember you training up mr foxx but lost track, how far did you take him? titles-wise.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Ha, ha--new all-time low for this mb!
> 
> Lee-just look at the characters trying to give you advice.... Real cool guys!


That's cool - coming from you, seeing as you think a dog growling at you isn't an issue.

Some don't bother about it - some do. I, for one, see this as a sign of disrespect. While it might not always be dangerous, I don't allow it.

We had a bit of a run in once Sue and you told me in no uncertain terms that you were not inexperienced. I honestly still have to question this.You seem to change your tune to the flow of the thread. One or two of the male handlers stated they don't correct growling and soon after, you are spouting out about "what's a bit of growling?".

I'll be honest, I'm 5 foot and "stretched" might make it to 5' 2". I know my physical limitations having had very large to large dogs, but my grey cells support me in keeping my dogs in check.

As Alice said you are arrogant, i.e. full of pee and importance!!!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'll be honest, I'm 5 foot and "stretched" might make it to 5' 2". I know my physical limitations having had very large to large dogs, but my grey cells support me in keeping my dogs in check.
> 
> As Alice said you are arrogant, i.e. full of pee and importance!!!


LOL. I'm about the same size (somewhere just under 5 ft 2) and you'd be shocked at what you can do if you're pissed off enough. I just usually choose a weapon to even the score (like a curtain rod) 
I can say for certain, a dog growling at me isn't any part of being a joke. I'm no "trainer" but I clearly see a threat to an animal growling at me in my house, especially if it's not the "I want to play" vocalization.

I'm sure clicker training probably has it's application, but it's not with a dog that thinks he's the biggest, baddest mother****er on the block.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... **** them, these fat refrigerator snacking, old stale armpit smelling mother****ers. Waddling to the freezer in the back of the garage to throw their dogs a frozen cow leg so they won't have to be bothered for a few days. All the while mumbling how great the dogs teeth look and almost falling over from their eyes rolling back in their head dizziness.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

My first really good laugh for today. 

You have a way with words that's truly transporting. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Just wanted to mention that some of these responses would be more to the point over here:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...headed-showdown-18250/index15.html#post238401

(Not necessarily the waddling eyeball-rolling ones. :lol: )


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'll be honest, I'm 5 foot and "stretched" might make it to 5' 2".
> 
> You can stretch yourself 2 whole inches? Or do you just put in taller shoes? Because I don’t think taller shoes don’t really count as growing?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Giftzwerg (toxic midget)!!


You need to try this!!! Not just wonder about it!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Giftzwerg (toxic midget)!!


(chuckle), is that really what giftzwerg means? Sads freindlich - jawoi!


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> This dog is an out of shape slob, and I don’t believe for a minute you took out the audio because you were laughing. When the audio comes back in there is no indication in the tone of your voice that you were doing anything but giving commands he was not listing to. Are clicker trained dogs more prone to having that wimpy little puppy bark even at 9 years old?


Sue's dogs are not to be fk'd with! No offense Mr. Becker. I like your female from her breeding to her biting. I can see from the vid "how she was raised" and a bit of her character, but Sue's dog at that age was a monstrosity. More than that that is being shown on your video and very "real." All things being equal, I'd decoy yours before I would hers for sure. They're the kind of dogs you'd find on Suttle's kennel.

She's not stupid enough to get into it with her dogs. She has been able to train some manners (to a degree) so that the beasts behave, but no... You got it all wrong Mr. McDonald.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Whatever Jeff! Just a comment-I'm a smart enough trainer not to get into a position with an aggressive dog where I'm going to fight with him. I don't care what you think of Mr. Foxx. In Mondio, doesn't the helper correct the dog during training? What's up with that? Wouldn't a real dog respond by fighting back instead of submitting to the helper? Just a stupid question from a stupid Bridge & Target trainer. Another stupid question-why does your dog look unhappy in all the videos? Looks like he doesn't like you much  Do you have to beat him up often?


Sorry Sue,

I have to disagree with you here completely. People who have not had a great deal of exposure to ring often have such a misconception. Trust me nothing about the dog being guided by the helper has much or any bearing on its dominance, aggression, or whatever (although I'm sure in the case of a weaker dog or a number of other mitigating factors this could be the case). The dog is in a "ring" (training field) w/ his "boxing" trainer (decoy) who is teaching him the "rules of engagement" of a boxing match (trial). Nothing more. Someone already likened it to an MMA fighter and his trainer and what the outcome of that relationship is. Your view is a VERY "old school" schutzhund training belief.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Zakia Days said:


> Sue's dogs are not to be fk'd with! No offense Mr. Becker. I like your female from her breeding to her biting. I can see from the vid "how she was raised" and a bit of her character, but Sue's dog at that age was a monstrosity. More than that that is being shown on your video and very "real." All things being equal, I'd decoy yours before I would hers for sure. They're the kind of dogs you'd find on Suttle's kennel.
> 
> She's not stupid enough to get into it with her dogs. She has been able to train some manners (to a degree) so that the beasts behave, but no... You got it all wrong Mr. McDonald.


 
You don’t have to call me Mr.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Sue's dogs are not to be fk'd with! No offense Mr. Becker. I like your female from her breeding to her biting. I can see from the vid "how she was raised" and a bit of her character, but Sue's dog at that age was a monstrosity. More than that that is being shown on your video and very "real." All things being equal, I'd decoy yours before I would hers for sure. They're the kind of dogs you'd find on Suttle's kennel.
> 
> She's not stupid enough to get into it with her dogs. She has been able to train some manners (to a degree) so that the beasts behave, but no... You got it all wrong Mr. McDonald.


Hey Zakia, 
When did I say that the dog would be easy to fukk with. And what does "not to be fukked with" mean to you? My vids were not made to prove anything, or compare anything, just some footage of a little bit of work with a SCH decoy, that remains a trusted partner to her, that has never done civil work with her, or put the screws to her. To show trust in the helper, from a dog that is not weak. I even mentioned that in the post.

I was not insulting Sue's Dog's or analyzing them, just disagreeing with her statements about weak dogs trusting the helper, which you just did as well, in your previous post. My comments about her dogs were if she thought that dog was weak, she must have real monsters. I was not comparing that dog to hers. 
Why would you be hesitant to decoy for her dog? 

As far as how my dog was "raised", no imprinting, no drive building, very little early socialization, before a year old. Not much in the way of civil work, even to this day...Is that what you gleaned from the short vids?

I personally see a lot more in her, swimming below the surface, if I want to some day, I'll let it come out and see what is in there. So far, I have kept a very careful even keel with this dog, I have no need currently for a dog that is a "real" monster. 

Given her statements, I would hope that she does have a monster. You obviously know the dog. I do not, I would never make a comparison based on a couple of short vids, that do not show what the true dog is, outside of it's sport work. You can also agree that the vids she has posted of the dog do not convey the monstrosity of which you speak, which is why vids don't mean much in the big scope of things. 

Which dog of Sue's are you referring to specifically?
What is it about the dog that makes you say that it is the kind you'd find at Suttle's Kennel? I have been there a few times.

Last time I was down at Mike's, we talked about the training of my dog a little, or more the lack thereof in certain areas and I was told if I wanted, that he could turn her into a monster, (or some similar term) in a week , if I wanted. 

I picked my pup up from Suttle's place, she is from his breeding, and she would be back there as I type this, if I wanted to sell her to Mike, who has offered to buy her. As far as I know he likes the dog, enough to have her at his kennel to use for breeding. Which tells me at the very least he does not think she is weak, and IS a type of dog you might find at his place.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Is that what they call defense? :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Is that what they call defense? :grin:


LOL...what Don? 
Is WHAT what they call defense? (I'm bored, no work today) maybe I'll make a clicker vid for ya...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> LOL...what Don?
> Is WHAT what they call defense? (I'm bored, no work today) maybe I'll make a clicker vid for ya...


LOL Thanks but no thanks there Joby. I kinda disagree with the whole premise of this thread. :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL Thanks but no thanks there Joby. I kinda disagree with the whole premise of this thread. :wink:


I know...LOL..too late though....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I thought Sues dog looked pretty good also. She uses the method more effectively than I could/would. I probably use my method better than she would/could. While her dogs responded to her and jumped up on a barrel, I have no use for that. Everyone has their dogs jump in the back of the truck without a clicker and it can be done in a few minutes also. I just find I don't train dog to do needless stuff for the fun of it.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I didn't think her dog looked that powerful in the blind. Its looked like the dog was barking for the Sleeve

"please please please gimme the sleeve"

There was no real intensity that I could see, it didn't look like the dog was ready for a fight.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't give opinions on what I see on the bite and working vids Chris because while everyone is ooohing and aaaahing I am trying to figure out why. It is obvious it is a game to them. Dog runs up, grabs sleeve, shakes a couple of times maybe, and is given the sleeve. I really don't know what the blinds is about....or the reason for the much of it so I keep quiet. I do see and appeciate the amount of obedience I see in the vids. I am impressed with that.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> _Quote: A dog will show aggression when he is frustrated enough or fearful enough._
> 
> _Which shows that you did not read what he wrote. WHat you just wrote has nothing at all to do with his situation_
> 
> ...


Why do people guess at stuff like this - you have no idea what the issue is but you just have to have a guess that it might be something related to an inanimate object..............[-X


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Here's that stupid "clicker" non-aggressive dog again. The video starts out at 9-months-old through 2 years old. He's the same 9-year-old dog in the first video above. All trained with Bridge & Target.
> http://www.blip.tv/file/583338/


I don't know if you are deliberately missing the point.

Nobody has denied that some people can train some dogs to a very good level using clicker training. This does not mean that it is the most suitable method for all situations, with all dogs and all people.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Hey Zakia,
> When did I say that the dog would be easy to fukk with. And what does "not to be fukked with" mean to you? My vids were not made to prove anything, or compare anything, just some footage of a little bit of work with a SCH decoy, that remains a trusted partner to her, that has never done civil work with her, or put the screws to her. To show trust in the helper, from a dog that is not weak. I even mentioned that in the post.
> 
> I was not insulting Sue's Dog's or analyzing them, just disagreeing with her statements about weak dogs trusting the helper, which you just did as well, in your previous post. My comments about her dogs were if she thought that dog was weak, she must have real monsters. I was not comparing that dog to hers.
> ...


Hey Mr. Becker,

The part of the post in which I stated that Sue's dogs were not to be fk'd w/ was not directed at you. It was more for Mr. McDonald (oops! Chris). So please forgive that point of misconception. Also, when I mentioned that I would decoy your dog before hers it was because I misunderstood your post. Again, 1000 apologies. Sue's dog at your dog's age had a "different" (if you will) "test" at that age and w/o the "assistance" of a decoy "adversary" whom he TRUSTS. I trust and believe that if your lil' gal is "turned on" she'd be a terror! No doubt and especially if Mike says so. But, this guy, Sue's dog didn't need the "turn on" part. I have been in the company of one or two litter mates and of Sue's dogs. I've also been to Mike's kennel as well, so I know what's on there. Believe me, he is at the very least comparable to what's on Mike's kennel. Good luck to you with you and yours. I am looking forward to what she puts out and to her training progress. Post wasn't meant to offend. I never mentioned anything about her being weak. Apologies if any offense was taken or felt.

p.s.- Again based on the video shown and what you've posted regarding her character and what I've seen in person re: her dogs, I'd still decoy yours first. FYI this would be an unfair call as I've been in the company of and watched her dog and one or two of the littermates work. I've only seen video of yours and I have faith in Mike's breeding and experience, so... It's a close call.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, it's good to know Sue Miller's got a fan club - i was nearly wetting myself in shame.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Well, it's good to know Sue Miller's got a fan club - i was nearly wetting myself in shame.


I usually wet myself laughing at some of the stuff I read here 
I don't know if I'm a member of Sue's fan club (don't want Butch getting jealous LOL) but I do like the work she's does with her
dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What work? Can you elucidate? 

What she spouts on here is enough to send the Pope into hiding.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia, DON'T CALL ME MISTER please...LOL..

No offense taken whatsoever, the internet does not convey mood or intentions very well, and I usually come off like a jerk in some way, not meaning things the way they are interpreted most of the time. No apologies necessary...

I did very little in the way of puppy stuff. I usually like to see what the dog is at an older age, when they are ready, without all the building, and masking, especially if I am thinking about using it for breeding. I initially had little interest in dogsport, I sometimes wish I had done things differently with this dog, because it is more difficult to train some things now.

At a little over 7 months of age after the teething layoff, the grip was pretty weak in "play prey" mode. 

I put her in a kennel, and had someone threaten her with a shovel, just a stare, a little yell, a lunge and a fake swing, to see how she would respond. The force and aggression that came out from that direct threat kinda surprised us , luckily she did not break a tooth on the fence. I was expecting some aggression, but was not expecting that forward explosion from a female pup under 8 months, honestly.

To this day that guy doesn't want the dog near him, he thinks he is gonna get attacked. Made an impression on him,that is for sure.

Right after the little blowup, we took her out and did some sleeve bites with a different guy, on a tie out. The bite was full and strong, and the dog was angry. On the second bite, he had the stick in his hand, rattling it at his side, he decided to raise it up and go over the dog with it, and the dog immediately let go of the sleeve and grabbed his bicep on his stick arm. It was his fault, he was too close, but it happened so fast we all kinda were stunned for a second, I had to pry her off of his arm, she was not letting go. 

She has real "out of the box" aggression.

That day was an eye opener, and by that time I was getting interested in competing is some sort of sport (I was thinking PSA at the time). So I made a choice to keep that side of the dog tucked away for a bit, to be able to work the stick and distractions in, work on targeting, and have a dog that was clear, that was generally pretty safe and predictable to work, as opposed to a straight gorilla, trying to kill people. I coulda went the other way with the dog, but took the better route for training and control purposes. Which was a very smart move I believe.

She is fairly social, and as of yet, does not even bark at people that come by the car when she is in it.

It is still in there, could tap into it anytime, that I am sure of. 

My main guy I've worked with for the last year and a half is a SCH decoy, one that is really big on being the dogs buddy in training, and is very fair to the dogs. It took a few months for him to gain her trust, and get it in her head that it is a " game". I am glad we went this way, otherwise progress would be slower, dogs that are seeing red don't learn very quickly.

I have done a good little bit of muzzle work, suit and hidden sleeve work, with a couple other people, but have not had anyone really crack into her, or piss her off real bad. Usually everything is pretty passive on the decoys part, very little if any agitation. I will find out what is in there sometime, maybe even sometime soon.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What work? Can you elucidate?
> 
> What she spouts on here is enough to send the Pope into hiding.


Hi Gillian,

Lots of people spout stuff on the WDF that has nothing to do with reality 
I like the work Sue has done with Mr Foxx. He's a off off breed and she has been successful trialing and titling him.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_Lots of people spout stuff on the WDF that has nothing to do with reality :smile:_

Is that an excuse? I admit my shortcomings like others do.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> _Lots of people spout stuff on the WDF that has nothing to do with reality :smile:_
> 
> Is that an excuse? I admit my shortcomings like others do.


No an observation


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Zakia, DON'T CALL ME MISTER please...LOL..
> 
> No offense taken whatsoever, the internet does not convey mood or intentions very well, and I usually come off like a jerk in some way, not meaning things the way they are interpreted most of the time. No apologies necessary...
> 
> ...


Okay Joby,

I see where you're coming from and I must admit that sounds about right at that age for Sue's dog as well. Very, very similar! I take it back. It may be a toss up. Only differences are that Sue's dog isn't social, but tolerable (that may be because of the testosterone levels, who knows). He pretty much ignores anyone else while working. Not sure how he is at this point cuz I've not seen him in some time, but his brother would do the same. However, the brother would sometimes observe to see if he could "pretend" someone pissed him off, so he'd have a reason to bite. VERY socially aggressive, dominant dogs. Not an ounce of socialization in them despite their training and exposure. Realizing this both Sue and her dog's brother's owner NEVER used "too much" or any in the way of civil agitation when working their dogs during training. They both agreed with your theory on it. Dog will never come off, be looking to kill the decoy literally, and on top of that the owners might get bit. Both dogs went on to compete in sport. One in PSA (became psa vice champ I believe) and the other a Schutzhund dog (SCH II, I believe).

Anyway, I like the sounds of your bitch. Sounds like my kind of gal.:wink:


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