# Theoretical Breeding Ethics Question...



## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Just in theory, mind you... 8-[ 

Let's say you knew of a dog that was an unbelievable specimen of its breed, very strong and driven, interesting pedigree, clean health testing, performed excellent under pressure, hits hard, etc. etc. 

You really like the dog and really want to see it bred.... you've seen it work enough to be very impressed... 

And the owner is shady. :evil: Not exactly trustworthy, doesn't have a great reputation, especially in financial deals. 

Let's also add that this dog is an off-breed, so the number of really good studs out there is limited... 

would you use that dog as a stud?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I would Amber, but also have you a contract that helps you and of course shady. Even contracts with people like shady don't mean a lot but it can't hurt. We can talk about this at training if you want.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If that was the best dog, then yes. However, if they are that shady, cut a hole in the fence, put the bitch in heat in the truck close by, and just "find" yourself a nice stud. LOL


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If that was the best dog, then yes. However, if they are that shady, cut a hole in the fence, put the bitch in heat in the truck close by, and just "find" yourself a nice stud. LOL


\\/ Don't let those genes go to waste! Seriously, if it is the best match for your bitch, I'd find a way to make it happen. As long as hips etc verify okay. It's not like you need to be in business with them forever.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

i'll tell you later, Jerry. you know who this is.


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

The real question to me seems to be, is it worth risking YOUR reputation being involved with the shady owner? There are bound to be other suitable studs out there some where.


It takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but just a moment to destroy one.

Terry


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Terry Devine said:


> The real question to me seems to be, is it worth risking YOUR reputation being involved with the shady owner? There are bound to be other suitable studs out there some where.
> 
> 
> It takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but just a moment to destroy one.
> ...


Maybe I'm naive but to me that would depend on your purpose for breeding and marketing the pups. If you are doing it to keep a puppy or 2 for yourself and to develop your own line, I'd do it. If you are selling all the pups then I agree with the above statement by Terry.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Terry Devine said:


> The real question to me seems to be, is it worth risking YOUR reputation being involved with the shady owner? There are bound to be other suitable studs out there some where.
> 
> 
> It takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but just a moment to destroy one.
> ...


I have to agree here. There are way too many buyer/seller beware stories about shady breeders to become another casualty or have your reputation involved. You can make sure paperwork and contracts are in order but if the person disappears you're left holding the bag so to speak.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'd think long and hard before I did the breeding. Is this really the ONLY and BEST stud suitable for my female? Are there any related dogs available, even if they are futher away, more expensive to use, etc. If I was in a rare breed where there truly were NO other options, I might consider it. But I'd go into the situation with the attitude that as soon as the breeding was done, we were done. Make sure you get any paperwork signed up front, assume that if the breeding doesn't take you may be out your stud fee (ie no repeat breeding given), that there won't be any future support from the stud dog owner, etc. If I was OK with all of that I might proceed with the breeding. I'd just make SURE that everything I needed from them I had before I left the day of the breeding, so there is no chance of ending up with a litter that can't be registered, and puppy people who end up screwed.

There are dogs I've passed over when considering a breeding because of who owned them. But I have Malinois, although there isn't a good stud on every street corner you usually have some options when looking for a certain pedigree, set of traits, etc in a stud dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Because this dog is good doesn't mean he will or can throw good pups. If his traits come from his sire and he was available, I would rather go with the dog that helped produce him.....or is he a "proven" stud?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'd be more likely to bred my female to a shady breeder's male than breeding my male to a shady breeder's female. At least the deed is over with quick and the shady breeder can't do crazy dumb stuff with the pups. And if the male is great in spite rather than because of said shady breeder, that's perhaps a good sign of the dog. But...eh...still...


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

im not looking at breeding anytime soon. it was just something I was discussing with Jay the other day. the dog was one of the nicest dobermanns i've ever seen. he hit hard, was super drivey, and took more physical and environmental pressure than some of the mals that came out. i dont want to mention who the person or dog is, but Jay can tell you that he put everything he had on that dog and it didn't even flinch. i really liked him. i wanted to recommend the dog to some friends as a stud, as well, but i know so many people that have had bad personal experiences with the owner that i hesitate to recommend the dog. and it's really sad, esp with the state the breed is in.


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

Amber your first mistake is hanging out with them Lyda boys    

All kidding aside, it still involves YOUR reputation when you make the reccommendation. If something is making me hesitate or doubt that I should reccommend someone or something I usually just do not make the reccommendation. Good luck with your decision.

Terry


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Considering that the stud dog is a dob, then there are all the health related issues. Does the "shady guy" do all the health clearances? and are those clearances, legitimately documented.
Just being devil's advocate.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

it wasn't bad. he had HD-1 hips and a current echo with documentation. vWD clear by parentage. no thyroid or CERF but at least most of the bases were covered.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Because this dog is good doesn't mean he will or can throw good pups. If his traits come from his sire and he was available, I would rather go with the dog that helped produce him.....or is he a "proven" stud?


The fact that the guy is shady is something to consider The point that Don made is the most important one brought up in this thread IMO I would not even consider a pup from a stud that isn't a proven producer or if I was a considering breeding. I can think of a at least a dozen great dog's that didn't produce shit or produced dysplastic nightmares. The mark of a great dog is his prodigy. To go a step further add his brother's and sisters progeny.


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