# Agitation Harness vs. Soft Collar for Agitation/Bite work training



## Kahn Nance (May 15, 2008)

I am curious to know what the different opinions are regarding agitation/bite work training with an agitation harness vs soft collar. I've asked around and Ive heard many people say they prefer the agitation harness because it offers less restriction on the dog overall and it is particularly good for younger dogs. Others say you only go to it only if the dog has a physical problem with using a soft collar first but the soft collar is the way to go.. Does it really make a difference either way..? If so, why..? Thoughts..?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote : If so, why..? Thoughts..?

I think that the new folks should get aquainted with the search function.

Short answer, harnesses could to put a dog higher on the leg with less control, collar it is easier to keep the dog low. Other than that, it is a personal preference.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Once again Jeff "Good EPLAINATION" straight to the point!!

> Phil


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kahn put your hands around your neck and be tight with it. Now, try and breath...tough job isn't it? That is what's happening with your dog. The harness still controls the dog but allows it to BREATH.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It can be physically difficult - try it on some else:lol:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It can be physically difficult - try it on some else:lol:


Gillian; your funny...Do we have anger management issues?  :lol: :twisted:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

OH NO anger issues!=;


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Unlike humans, the second largest muscle on a dog is his neck, so the whole tightening thing is not a very good way of explaining the difference between harness and collar. IO am pretty sure that the muscles in our neck are way down the line, AND, I do not remember aggitation collars that tightened up, maybe you guys have some sort of weird PETA/hsus variation of an aggitation collar.

What was I saying again????? Oh yeah, no tightening on an aggitation collar. Remind me not to buy equipment from the place that you get your stuff.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Will Kline said:


> Gillian; your funny...Do we have anger management issues?  :lol: :twisted:


Hei, no, just thick-necked but quite good tempered


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I use a prong, don't use a harness for anything any more.

I have one that's brand new/ 2 yrs old that I haven't used, it's a large I think. If anyone could use it let me know, the price is postage.

It's this one http://dogsportgear.com/ultraharness1.htm


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## John Andrews (Apr 3, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I use a prong, don't use a harness for anything any more.
> 
> I have one that's brand new/ 2 yrs old that I haven't used, it's a large I think. If anyone could use it let me know, the price is postage.
> 
> It's this one http://dogsportgear.com/ultraharness1.htm


I'll take it! Check PM's.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Wow, that's a really nice agitation harness - you really scored, John!\\/


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I wish we had dogs with NO drive and that didn't pull into the bite drive. Then a flat collar would be great and the pressure across the throat wouldn't restrict breathing...

One more reason we use them. Has nothing to do with neck muscle groups, as they largely run down the sides and back of everything. The throat isn't well protected. \\/


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

My favorite harness comes from http://www.fullgripgear.com/harnesses.html


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## Michael West (Jun 3, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> One more reason we use them. Has nothing to do with neck muscle groups, as they largely run down the sides and back of everything. The throat isn't well protected. \\/


This is the first time i have ever heard this reason.

I like it.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michael West said:


> This is the first time i have ever heard this reason.
> 
> I like it.


Hey Mike! Watch dogs pulling into the bite, while in high drive, then listen to their breathing. As a decoy, you can read the dog, and hear bite stress, fight drives, and labored breathing if a thin collar pulls against the throat. I like the harness. I like it better on the dog as is doesn't ride up with wear on me too well! 8-[


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## Sean Boles (Jun 8, 2008)

I'll throw my two cents into this thread. I'm just going off my own experience with my Cane Corso here. He is a big boy at around 120+ pounds and when I was using a 2" flat leather collar with him on a back tie or with me holding him, he would go after the helper/sleeve with such ferocity that he would hurt his throat. I could literally hear him whimper when he hit the end of the back tie due to the sudden stop. Did this stop him from going after it? Absolutely not, but when I had an agitation harness made for him, it was a major difference in how "hard" he would go after the helper.

Some competitions we have entered required him to be on a flat collar, and he will work on that. But when he is in the harness, he seems to have much more enthusiasm for it. Plus, it just makes me feel better knowing he isn't hurting himself while working on a lead or back tie. 

I guess to sum it up, I prefer a harness for agitation work.


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## Ron Swart (Jun 7, 2007)

=P~ Rats John beat me to it...:-(


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I used a wide leather agitation collar on my old Tiekerhook dog when he was around a year old, but we switched him to a harness when we noticed a he had a lot of busted blood vessels in his eyes, along with the horrible breathing sounds, and I've always used an agitation harness ever since.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sean Boles said:


> I'll throw my two cents into this thread. I'm just going off my own experience with my Cane Corso here. He is a big boy at around 120+ pounds and when I was using a 2" flat leather collar with him on a back tie or with me holding him, he would go after the helper/sleeve with such ferocity that he would hurt his throat. I could literally hear him whimper when he hit the end of the back tie due to the sudden stop. Did this stop him from going after it? Absolutely not, but when I had an agitation harness made for him, it was a major difference in how "hard" he would go after the helper.
> 
> Some competitions we have entered required him to be on a flat collar, and he will work on that. But when he is in the harness, he seems to have much more enthusiasm for it. Plus, it just makes me feel better knowing he isn't hurting himself while working on a lead or back tie.
> 
> I guess to sum it up, I prefer a harness for agitation work.


Hey Sean it is the very thing that I have been saying! And it has nothing to do with the dog's lack of "hardness" or drive. If it can't breath, it can't fight; if it can't fight, it can't kick your a$$. :-k 
The harness for training purposes ALWAYS wins out with me. Susan also pointed this out with her dog. Betting it isn't weak as water either!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I guess I just don't understand the concept here. Why would the dog be straining against a collar when he's biting? 

DFrost


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I like the harness, dogs that have drive will pull hard and the flat wide colar can restrict their breathing, barking, handler soft dog that have drive sometime think you correct them if they lunge and got themself jerking back, once on a bite I like to have pressure on the line to keep the dog from chewing and teach a harder grip, with the collar sometime they get choke, I just think the harness is better than colar for training young dogs with drive.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> I guess I just don't understand the concept here. Why would the dog be straining against a collar when he's biting?
> 
> DFrost


David this happens on the backtie and with the decoy pulling out from the bite. If the dog is moving into the bite and no pulling pressure from the handler or post, it doesn't happen. We have a young German Shepherd that is sooooo into it that he will lean into the bite/driviing in while the owner is a post. The dog is basically choking on the collar. The harness doesn't allow that to happen.


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

So at what point to you transition them to the collar they will be wearing in trial?


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Julie Ward said:


> So at what point to you transition them to the collar they will be wearing in trial?


When you are no longer working on grip training and bite compression? 
When the dog has enough obedience to not lunge against the leash when you step out on the field?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dan Long said:


> When you are no longer working on grip training and bite compression?
> When the dog has enough obedience to not lunge against the leash when you step out on the field?


When the control and grips are calm and focused. Bite compression can be an ongoing thing. Like Dan has said, when the dog is not lunging against the leash. I like DRIVE, I love control....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Unlike humans, the second largest muscle on a dog is his neck, so the whole tightening thing is not a very good way of explaining the difference between harness and collar.


Erm, what do you mean by largest? There's not just one muscle in the neck. There's like at least a dozen muscles involved in all the different movements that dogs use (the horse and cow are even worse, ugh...). I'd say the largest or near to largest and most extensive would actually be the pectorals and/or the biceps femoris in the hind legs.

The trachea is really only protected by the sternohyoideus and a little bit by the thyrohyoideus and sternothyroideus (yes, the neck muscles suck to memorize), which are pretty thin strappy muscles. We had a pit bull for our anatomy dissection dog last year and even with her impressive muscling, the muscles around the trachea weren't extensive, which I guess is fortunate as that is what has to be moved around or cut in a tracheostomy. The big muscles in the neck are like the brachiocephalicus, but that doesn't protect the throat.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Erm, what do you mean by largest? There's not just one muscle in the neck. There's like at least a dozen muscles involved in all the different movements that dogs use (the horse and cow are even worse, ugh...). I'd say the largest or near to largest and most extensive would actually be the pectorals and/or the biceps femoris in the hind legs.
> 
> The trachea is really only protected by the sternohyoideus and a little bit by the thyrohyoideus and sternothyroideus (yes, the neck muscles suck to memorize), which are pretty thin strappy muscles. We had a pit bull for our anatomy dissection dog last year and even with her impressive muscling, the muscles around the trachea weren't extensive, which I guess is fortunate as that is what has to be moved around or cut in a tracheostomy. The big muscles in the neck are like the brachiocephalicus, but that doesn't protect the throat.


You go girl! Well said. Interesting how so many muscles and muscle groups play into the control of the human body. Then you have all those tendons which are useful at times. As a former high school wrestling and soccer coach, I use to have kids stretch and condition for 20-30 minutes before we got down to training. 

I would have guessed the mouth, cause it's always WORKING!!!:-$


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The trachea is really only protected by the sternohyoideus and a little bit by the thyrohyoideus and sternothyroideus (yes, the neck muscles suck to memorize)


For a second there I thought you were talking about dinosaurs.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gerry! We can dress you up but we can't take you out...oh my!


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## Robin Gan (Jul 20, 2008)

I prefer to use harness with young dogs when their barking quality has not fully developed. Having said that the advantage of using agitation collar is that the dog's forward movement is clearly restricted as oppose to harness. 

For dogs that love to lunge when put on the back-tie I would use harness as i find these dogs will get tire faster due to the choking effect from lunging.

When teaching the out I prefer to use agitation collar as with the harness chances of encountering accidental grips are likely to happen.

I normally keep a record of which dog goes on harness or vice versa.


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