# Creasy learning attn heel



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Started training him in April/May timeframe, kinda ok progress after about 20, three to five minute sessions. I need to increase the session frequency. What do y'all think? 
http://youtu.be/OicY3JsZ5L4


----------



## Melissa Leistikow (Jan 5, 2012)

Looks awesome!


----------



## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Kudos.... very nice work.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Melissa and Ted.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Needs more work, but a nice start. You need to move your left arm, it looks like he's hand targeting and that might be a problem when you have to add a natural arm swing. Nice rear end awareness (he pivots when you turn) but he's over rotating behind you. This is one video so it might just be this clip but it looks more like a lot of turns and not much actual continuous heeling. He never actually gets a chance to settle into a nice rhythmic heeling pattern with stable head position and focus.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think he looks awesome, too. If I remember correctly, you were just letting him grow up, not putting a lot of hocus pocus on him as a pup, so basically this is pretty new stuff for him? I don't think he's over-rotating, it's where you are in his training, and as it should be at this point, same thing with the exaggerated turns, etc., because this is not about a completed, perfect picture, this is a young, green dog who is on the way, and I say "nicely done, Faisal, nicely done".


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Hey thanks Susan. Yes this is all brand new stuff for Creasy, his learning curve is about to go steep. I am liking this boy!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Everyone should have such a "green" dog. I believe he's going to shoot right up that steep learning curve.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Creasy is responding great //// nice work Faisal !
he looks a lot better than other dogs i've seen who were only worked 20 times for 3-5 min and at this point i like all the turns to help him keep his position

- i would agree with Thomas and de-robotize your left side to see what happens and test whether he is trying to avoid a correction or happily heeling 
... as in adding more straights in small increments and starting to vary speeds, etc

looks like it's progressing well and imo better to be precise and demanding to lock in muscle memory position than moving all over the field and allow sloppiness to creep in 

next time please include the marking/rewarding in the reps/sets so we can see the full monty


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Everyone should have such a "green" dog. I believe he's going to shoot right up that steep learning curve.


agreed!


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Bob and Rick. Videos are great in that you get to see yourself, I was unaware of my left side not flowing normally to this degree (I thought it was just a lil stiff  Today it was normal movement of both arms and heeling was better than the video. We are adding distractions from next session, I will give it 5-10 sessions and shoot another video for comparison + include rewards and non heeling exercises to keep him engaged.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> Thanks Bob and Rick. Videos are great in that you get to see yourself, I was unaware of my left side not flowing normally to this degree (I thought it was just a lil stiff  Today it was normal movement of both arms and heeling was better than the video. We are adding distractions from next session, I will give it 5-10 sessions and shoot another video for comparison + include rewards and non heeling exercises to keep him engaged.


I get robotic also lol. It's hard to break habits like that. Nice heeling though. What made you not start training till just recently? Focusing on gnash first?


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> I get robotic also lol. It's hard to break habits like that. Nice heeling though. What made you not start training till just recently? Focusing on gnash first?


Many factors led me to wait on training Creasy. I got him at 8 weeks, did the foundation early and then slowed down training him to an almost standstill till he was 2 years old. Main item was his bite was really nice so nothing much to teach him there till advanced stuff that comes with age, I am focussed on Gnash and this spring totally changed the training approach with Gnash so it took a lot of thought and time. Also I wanted to experience both sides on the fence, with Gnash I went pretty fast and he was IPO3 and not yet 3 years old! but now I have to re-train some items! I wanted to see if I wait and let Creasy grow up how would it turn out plus do it right from the start. I am liking the result. From this spring on it is full steam ahead with both dogs


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Good work Faisal! I like everything you are doing. I'm a fan.

Don't worry about moving your arm. At this stage of training I think the dog needs a nice steady picture. Fade it out later. You are a good handler and it won't be a problem for you.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Really impressive for the time put in!!!


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Chris and Robert. Chris, yes totally understand what you are saying about giving a steady picture at this stage and get focus, engagement and position solid. The last thing I want to do here is to add long straight line pattern heeling and loose everything I have worked to build  

With the progress he has shown in all 3 phases and watching a few videos this week, it is time to move him one level up where the difficulty increases for him and help reduces from me. We have a plan for the next 15-20 sessions for tracking + OB + protection. I am really excited to work on our new training approach


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

You don't need a steady picture. You need a proper picture with both arms moving in a normal manner like is required in the rules.
But heck if you want to spend weeks teaching heeling and then have to spend months having to reteach it? Knock yourself out


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> Thanks Chris and Robert. Chris, yes totally understand what you are saying about giving a steady picture at this stage and get focus, engagement and position solid. The last thing I want to do here is to add long straight line pattern heeling and loose everything I have worked to build
> 
> With the progress he has shown in all 3 phases and watching a few videos this week, it is time to move him one level up where the difficulty increases for him and help reduces from me. We have a plan for the next 15-20 sessions for tracking + OB + protection. I am really excited to work on our new training approach


 Have you done much tracking with him? If so what have you done and will you share any vids of it or your future ones?


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Have you done much tracking with him? If so what have you done and will you share any vids of it or your future ones?


He is a really good tracker but does not have much experience under his belt, just started regular tracks this spring and before it was just foundation work when he was a pup. 

His food drive is high so just using 1-2 pieces of kibble in footsteps. He gets about 60% baited footsteps in a 300 or so pace track. Very hot these days so keeping it short and sweet. Will shoot a tracking vid when I get a chance then post. I am just starting to train articles.


----------



## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

I missed the reward! Very nice work. Slow solid foundation is good, right?!


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jane Jean said:


> I missed the reward! Very nice work. Slow solid foundation is good, right?!


Thanks Jane but what reward? there is no reward in the clip (it happened before and after but had to reduce vid size for email). Not about slow foundation but more about the right foundation. It took me a long time to find the right way therefore slow for Creasy!

Next dog will be fast and right  Best to experience a few different techniques and then decide what works for you and the given dog.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> You don't need a steady picture. You need a proper picture with both arms moving in a normal manner like is required in the rules.
> But heck if you want to spend weeks teaching heeling and then have to spend months having to reteach it? Knock yourself out


Faisal, you should also take the leash and training collar off the dog too as required in the rules. Also the there is no point in doing all of the those quick left turns and sudden stops too because that's not something done in trial either. :lol:

Thomas, it's called T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G. Every *good trainer* in IPO use techniques and equipment that needs to be faded out as the dog becomes proficient at the task. Why use food or a toy if you can't use them in trial?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Faisal, you should also take the leash and training collar off the dog too as required in the rules. Also the there is no point in doing all of the those quick left turns and sudden stops too because that's not something done in trial either. :lol:
> 
> Thomas, it's called T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G. Every *good trainer* in IPO use techniques and equipment that needs to be faded out as the dog becomes proficient at the task. Why use food or a toy if you can't use them in trial?


PULEEZE Christopher. Faisal asked for comments on a 1 minute video. I noted several incidents where he will lose points and/or will have to retrain. He can do with it what he wants.
RE: Quick turns and sudden stops
They are counter productive when the dog over rotates on the finishes and turns and half sits on the stops.

Maybe we need a little warning when you guys post video.
"I only want positive comments that stroke my ego and please don't actually critique or comment or offer suggestions"
I'm going tracking, you can keep up your usual BS


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Make sure you track at the full 10 meters of line.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Lol, and no food on track?


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool vid, thanks for sharing!


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Make sure you track at the full 10 meters of line.



I didn't post a video and didn't ask for advise. If anyone wants lessons on being a smart ass I'll give you a recommendation Chris.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Lol, and no food on track?


I don't use bait with any of my dogs anymore, but you go ahead and worry about what CS thinks ;-)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Cool vid, thanks for sharing!



Agreed! Let's keep the thread about the O.P.


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> He is a really good tracker but does not have much experience under his belt, just started regular tracks this spring and before it was just foundation work when he was a pup.
> 
> His food drive is high so just using 1-2 pieces of kibble in footsteps. He gets about 60% baited footsteps in a 300 or so pace track. Very hot these days so keeping it short and sweet. Will shoot a tracking vid when I get a chance then post. I am just starting to train articles.


What 60% ? how can master dang let you get away with that? should be 100%, tell master dang I said he is getting soft.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> What 60% ? how can master dang let you get away with that? should be 100%, tell master dang I said he is getting soft.


Haha Khoi, I will let master dang know  Georgia said 7 gave you some kisses, everything ok?


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

broken pinky and thump, sprained ankle, I will kick his ass tonight


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> broken pinky and thump, sprained ankle, I will kick his ass tonight


Ouch, heal quick man.


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Great work, Faisal, he's off to an excellent start. Best of luck with him


----------



## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Nice work!!!!!

Don't worry about your arm position!!other people have been BSP winner and have make top ten on the WUSV with this arm position


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Dave n Stefan. This pup is scaring me a lil, he just learns too quick! I will have to step up my game with him.


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Nice Faisal. Is he similar at all to Gnash? Same temperament, drive? Or are they very different?


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Nice Faisal. Is he similar at all to Gnash? Same temperament, drive? Or are they very different?


Oh man these are 2 totally different dogs. Only commonality is that both have sent 1 helper each into emergency surgery. Brief comparison below.

Prey, Defense, Aggression, Social, Dominant, Biddable, Food Drive
Gnash: Hi Hi Hi Yes Yes No Med
Creasy: Hi Low Med Yes No Yes Hi


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Faisal, have you done anything different with your training?


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Faisal, have you done anything different with your training?


Bob, I don't understand. Do you mean different training approach over time or different training approach for each dog in general based upon their differences?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Over time. I agree that each dog is different but have your methods changed because of any advancement in training that you have made. Obviously/hopefully we get better with each dog even if we use the same methods.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Yes, changed my approach to training. A year ago I realized that there are people with dogs similar to mine that are achieving better results by doing it different. Took me some time to understand and make a decision. I am seeing good results by reducing conflict where it was necessary and using the dog's strength to manipulate him into doing what makes it a win/win for both of us. Not to mention that when people started getting hurt my wife made a simple comment "y'all are doing something wrong"!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent! Just by your descriptions of Creasy it seems creating conflict with him could results in a back fire. 
Why fight with a dog that loves to fight! :wink:


----------



## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

How are people getting hurt during training?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Mark Sheplak said:


> How are people getting hurt during training?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not up for discussion. This is a heeling topic.


----------



## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> Not up for discussion. This is a heeling topic.


Fair enough, you mentioned people being hurt multiple times in this thread, so I was curious to see what happened. Emergency surgeries on helpers aren't an everyday occurrence. Just trying to learn so that I can continue to stay out of the OR.


----------

