# Who do you sell your extreme dogs to?



## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

I asked in an earlier thread, but got no answer. WHen you breed extreme dogs, who will you sell them to? I have often heard that the police aren't the best handlers/trainers and sports people don't want dogs that won't get points. So why breed the dogs, with noone to handle them? What will you do with the ones that are returned to you as too hard. This is mostly for the Americans here in the land of the lawsuit. Who will you limit who you sell them to:?::?::?: Will the offspring of these dogs be in the news as vicious??? Lots of questions and things to be thought about.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

I am not a breeder or dog seller, but my guess is that there is always someone looking for a "harder" dog, as you put it. Maybe not for the right reasons, but I'm sure they sell nonetheless.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dwyras Brown said:


> I asked in an earlier thread, but got no answer. WHen you breed extreme dogs, who will you sell them to?...


 You may have gotten your answer...First, what is extreme? If you can't control it, who wants it? If it isn't handler useable, serviceable, able to function in the proper venue...why breed?!


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

what is hard to one person or extreme for one person, may not be for the next person- many people on this forum have extreme dogs of their own- they know how to handle, how NOT to correct the dog and when to or not to give direction to that particular dog....responsible breeders/owners of these type of dogs- will not just sell/place this type of dog to anyone. There are lots of needs for these type of dogs- but of course a lot of responsibility to.
you probably want some examples- I know of an owner of ATM's that uses dogs like these, some are used as guard dogs of businesses at night- prison dogs-military dogs .....for a couple of examples.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dogs are reflections of the owner; mine's sweet, loving, kind, good looking, easy to deal with, friendly, and did I mention humble?!:mrgreen:


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

I can assure you the world is not short of people with big EGOS and small d*cks would be very happy to cash out for the "real deal". 

I'm with you Howard cos my dogs are gentle loving pussy cats

love and kissess


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> You may have gotten your answer...First, what is extreme? If you can't control it, who wants it? If it isn't handler useable, serviceable, able to function in the proper venue...why breed?!


I think that sums it up perfectly...


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Okay, since everyone is skirting the question. Where will the new Carlos, Jochie, and any other van Leeuwen line dogs go. Forum members have frequently said that these dogs shouldn't just be available to police and military. What happens when these man-aggressive dogs get in the wrong hands. What happens when the offspring are the guardian of the local dopehouse. Dick van Leeuwen, himself has stated that he doesn't feel the dogs are right for just everyone to have.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Dwyras Brown said:


> What happens when these man-aggressive dogs get in the wrong hands. What happens when the offspring are the guardian of the local dopehouse..


They'd get shot just like the current Pits, Rotts and other "man-aggressive" dogs that are guardians of the local dopehouse.
I don't see the problem. 

DFrost


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

But David, would you rather see the dog as a partner or enemy? It can be used as a weapon, do you want it in the wrong hands? I don't think Dick and Selena would want them in the wrong hands. How about it Dick or Selena, where do you think these dogs should go in the US?


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

I think Dick is correct; that type of dog should not be available to just anyone. Another common mistake, IMO, is that some dogs that may be defined by the majority as "extreme" or "hard to handle" are often sold to people who have titled a couple of dogs or even to LEA's. For some reason some breeders think that any K9 handler can handle any type of dog. Wrong. I personally know of a dog (a mal) a friend of mine has that has been brought back by 2 LEA's so far for being "too much". The dog is now with a 3rd department and to be honest, I don't think they have anyone who can handle him either. I also see more "extreme" dogs going to anyone who's titled a couple of dogs. My questions to them are how were the dogs you titled wired? To what level did you title them? Just because a person has titled a couple of dogs to SCH1 doesn't mean they can handle any and every dog. IMO, if you've only titled one dog and been doing this for a couple of years, you're not ready for that type of dog, and I include myself in that lot as well. I'm nowhere near ready for that type of dog, and my ego is not so big that I think I am. All a breeder can do is try to make an informed, responsible decision about the person wanting a dog like that. And breeders get duped every day by people who talk a good game. If someone ends up with a dog that's too much and same person gets bit by said dog, more often than not their own ego played a major part in that.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dogs are reflections of the owner; mine's sweet, loving, kind, good looking, easy to deal with, friendly, and did I mention humble?!:mrgreen:


I hope this is a joke.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Dwyras Brown said:


> But David, would you rather see the dog as a partner or enemy? It can be used as a weapon, do you want it in the wrong hands? I don't think Dick and Selena would want them in the wrong hands. How about it Dick or Selena, where do you think these dogs should go in the US?


Of course I'd like to see the dog in good hands, but we don't always get what we want in the real world. I see collector, and even on occasion museum quality, weapons destroyed on a regular basis because they were in the wrong hands. The reality is not everything that should be "for the good" is.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Adam Swilling said:


> Another common mistake, IMO, is that some dogs that may be defined by the majority as "extreme" or "hard to handle" are often sold to people who have titled a couple of dogs or even to LEA's. For some reason some breeders think that any K9 handler can handle any type of dog. Wrong.


From a law enforcement perspective. I don't want dogs that are going to become a liability. I want dogs that can be of service to the department without having to spend my time in court defending an "extreme" dog. A handler, out IOD, because of an "extreme" dog has injured him due to our, oft mentioned poor training/handling skills. I understand that the professionals of the world don't feel police know how to train or handle dogs. The fact is, among those that train dogs, we, unskilled as we may be, are more likely to have to use the dog to find, apprehend and bite someone, than the much more skilled and able trainers of the world. We buy dogs we can use, for the objectives we face from what is available to us. 

DFrost


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

David Frost said:


> From a law enforcement perspective. I don't want dogs that are going to become a liability. I want dogs that can be of service to the department without having to spend my time in court defending an "extreme" dog. A handler, out IOD, because of an "extreme" dog has injured him due to our, oft mentioned poor training/handling skills. I understand that the professionals of the world don't feel police know how to train or handle dogs. The fact is, among those that train dogs, we, unskilled as we may be, are more likely to have to use the dog to find, apprehend and bite someone, than the much more skilled and able trainers of the world. We buy dogs we can use, for the objectives we face from what is available to us.
> 
> DFrost


I agree with that. Let me clarify what I mean. I meant that for a lot of breeders/ vendors there is an automatic assumption that a K9 handler can handle certain types of dogs. They don't realize that those "extreme" dogs can be liabilities at times. What I consider to be "extreme" I would not want to see on the street. What I've noticed is that you typically see that issue with smaller LE's; that old addage of "Bubba used to raise beagles with his daddy, so we're gonna make him a K9 handler." Then they get a grant and go out and get something that's way too much dog for poor old Bubba. The bigger LE's, at least in my experience, typically have someone who knows how to pick the right dog for the job. But I do think some responsibility lies with the supplier; they shouldn't assume that just any dog is the right dog for a PSD. Clear as mud?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Jones II said:


> I hope this is a joke.


 LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

If you breed b/c you need a few bucks, your reasons are wrong. Breeding an extreme dog that has very few uses is dumb. What cop wants a dog they can't count on? What sport K-9 venue wants dogs running wildly about the place? You had better have a good plan or plan to fail. My dogs ARE a reflection of me: how they are trained, what I expect, AND what I get! \\/


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Well, we do select which dogs are going to your side of the pond. All dogs we have bred are sport/ knpv suitable, but there are degrees in social behaviour and ( expectation of) how much they will be dominant agressive.

We keep the most flammable, dominant in Holland/Europe, as far we can foresee at 7/8 wks.
The ones who are or have been on my waitinglist know that they have the lower picks or -if, at high exception- have a high pick I/ we have influence at their pick.

We know of dogs out of our bloodline- not sended over by us- who are shot or pts. We don't want that to happen and try to influence it as much as possible.


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

The Police don't buy extreme dogs, there might be examples in Holland or Germany due to the dog training culture but as a rule they are not in the Police; dog and handler sometimes evolve into a serious combination but that's about it.
The military have even less extreme dogs; some nutters that guard fuel dumps but their life is short. The average squaddie is not handling an extreme dog and they are often multi-handled.
Special Forces (Military) no, not the current one's I have worked with, a small team of soldiers living together for weeks on end etc there's no room for an extreme dog with a novice handler.
SWAT Teams, particulary on the continent, more likely because the culture and experience supports the role.
I understood that extreme dogs were kept by those handlers, trainers and breeders that know what their doing. 
Whilst we like the idea the reality is there are pain in the ass!

Mark


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I think a succesful breeder, breeds for what they like and if they do a good job they dont have to look for customers. I have found a couple of puppies so far that didn't cost me much because the breeder wasnt popular or somebody didnt agree with their decisions. I didn't think the last dog I sold was really hard but he went to two police agencies before he found a home. So it is also like mo said about different people are better at handling different dogs! JMHO;-)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

In the netherlands and europe, I would sell the dogs im planning to breed to whoever pays the askingprice and I wouldnt think to much about it to be honest....to the US? I doubt I would sell any at all since the view of extreme differs way to much in my eyes. My personal perception is that in the US dogs are quite quickly labeled as extreme or unmanageable....its not ment as an unrespectfull comment but a personal observation that I have after what I have seen on forum about certain types of dogs or certain comments made.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dogs are reflections of the owner; mine's sweet, loving, kind, good looking, easy to deal with, friendly, and did I mention humble?!:mrgreen:


And, how that demeanors fit into PP ? Cheers.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

As Dick and Alice already said, the extreme dogs stay here as they would mean trouble to 99% of the people. From what I read, definition of “extreme” is different over here.
I have an agreement with a friend that, if ever something would happen to Joâo & me together, 3 of our 5 dogs can be re-homed (told her who to) and the other 2 can’t be re-homed or sold. Couldn’t think of anybody I could give those 2 to and I don’t want them to spend their life kenelled and only used for breeding.
Because breeding is what you need the extreme dogs for if you want to maintain the quality of the breed.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Colin Chin said:


> And, how that demeanors fit into PP ? Cheers.


 Calm before the storm...


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## Marcel Aalders (Jun 7, 2011)

Sorry to interfere but think there is a large misunderstanding here !

Breeding good quality dogs for sport or practice purposes doesn't mean breeding extreme and agressive killing machines ! I know Jochie in person for instance, a real pain in the arse for a decoy because of his extreme temperament and drives but off field and at home you cannot find a more social dog. For instance his previous owner Johnny Ulrich had 2 small kids who feed Jochie by hand inside the kennel, he has to sit eat the meat or cheese from the sandwich first then he could lick the butter of the sandwich. 
A stable and balanced character is the key here ! The power you just see in work when dogs come into drive !
KNPV is about training dogs to prepare them for practice purposes (police dogs), the handler / police officer, often no experience handlers themselves, keep there dogs at home when they're off duty and have families too ! Thereby it's not for nothing that exercises like the brooken attack ("schijn-stellen") and return on command ("terugroepen") are part of the KNPV programm. It's to proof the dogs are totally under control and reachable. 

Second thing I want to mention is the fact that to keep the quality of working dogs high it's important to use only the best of the best for breeding and make no concessions. From nothing comes nothing. Dogs like Jochie for instance are no dogs you can breed on demand. Even in combinaton with the best fitting (genetically) females it will be hard breeding dogs who have just 75% of Jochies quality. 
It's no difference in nature themselves, only the strongest and fittest are responsable for reproducing. In our domesticated world this is the responsibility of breeders.

I don't want to upset anybodywith the next but slihtly understand why people abroad stay byuing KNPV dogs from the Netherlands and not breeding the right quality themselves. They simply don't understand what breeding is all about. Take your time in reading some books about genetics and you will understand at least the basics. 

I wish it was that simple breeding just good and constant quality dogs only (even not talking about extreme dogs).....I would be a milionair.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Marcel Aalders said:


> Second thing I want to mention is the fact that to keep the quality of working dogs high it's important to *use only the best of the best for breeding and make no concessions*.
> *Only the strongest and fittest* are responsable for reproducing. In our domesticated world this is the responsibility of breeders.
> 
> I wish it was that simple breeding just good and constant quality dogs only (even not talking about extreme dogs).....I would be a milionair.


Amen to that!

Breed a top quality male to a top quality female and there is a good chance that youwill get nice offspring. But only very few will have the same quality as the parents.
That's why it's so important that a good stud has "too much" and this type of dog is rare.
Good lines is a good thing but it's not everything. You have to look at the individual dog.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Marcel, I do agree on breeding the strongest and doing concessions, but "being social " isnt a trait we select upon. For own people they are, for stangers it depends and I don't care if they aren't.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Marcel, I do agree on breeding the strongest and doing concessions, but "being social " isnt a trait we select upon. For own people they are, for stangers it depends and I don't care if they aren't.


Most of our dogs are not social. And I don't care too much, since for their own family they are very good.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Social is a term that also means different things to different people. To me is means the dog can be around other people without the need to show aggression, that is they do not fear people. I have a couple of females that ignore people and act as if they dont exist, but they are hoping the person gives them a reason to bite.
To other people social means the dog seeks affection from everyone.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I figure "social" to most people means that the dog allows other people to pet him or play with him.
In general I prefer a dog to be indifferent to people as long as they leave him (and me) alone. He should act as if they didn't even exist. I wouldn't like it if he accepted people touching him, let alone play with him.
But on his own property, he should pay attention and be ready to attack if he sees someone he doesn't know.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Social is a term that also means different things to different people. To me is means the dog can be around other people without the need to show aggression, that is they do not fear people. I have a couple of females that ignore people and act as if they dont exist, but they are hoping the person gives them a reason to bite.
> To other people social means the dog seeks affection from everyone.


 I've got a female like that now. Totally indifferent to everyone around her , except for me, my wife, and kids. The actual number of people she gives a rip about is a grand total of 4. No one else can pet her, etc. Yet my 9 and 11 year old can do whatever they want with her. The 9 year old doesn't like dogs to jump on him and to this day she has yet to jump on him. And I never taught her not to; she just knows. My kids go to the kennel and her eyes light up; she loves them. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't want a dog that just anyone can pet for my personal dog. I just don't. This dog is everything I've wanted in the work and at home. She doesn't live with the proverbial you, she doesn't protect you, she's not trained by you. As long as she's neutral to people and not showing aggression when unnecessary, I don't care if a total stranger can't pet her. 

@Martine: I agree with your statement that the studs need to be too much. I've said 100 times, if you hope to get even half of what the parents are you have to breed the "extreme" dogs. And you're right: bloodlines only tell you what a dog should be. The individual dog tells you what it really is. I see waaay too many "ped heads". We've all seen crappers out of the best bloodlines.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Quite honestly i couldnt give a rats ass if my dog is social to outsiders or not, if he is then ok, if he isnt well fine by me...he has to be social to me and thats where it ends, for the rest of the world the rule is pretty damn simple " theres a leash on my dog for a reason, touch without asking and the risk is your own"

I will not tolerate a dog that lunges for everything and everyone, behaviour like that will be punished hard but I refuse to punish when by change he is aproached and petted or what have you not without me being asked in advance....and dont come with the whole 'but what if its a kid, they dont always ask" to friggin bad! I live in a wilderness of kids here and even the 3 year olds ask if they may aproach or pet the dogs...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I will not tolerate a dog that lunges for everything and everyone, behaviour like that will be punished hard but I refuse to punish when by change he is aproached and petted or what have you not without me being asked in advance....and dont come with the whole 'but what if its a kid, they dont always ask" to friggin bad! I live in a wilderness of kids here and even the 3 year olds ask if they may aproach or pet the dogs...


A lot of Americans do not have that common sense as adults. They sure as heck do not teach it to their kids, not as an absolute. There are no doubt exceptions, and I do not think we are totally a nation of dog-illiterate morons. Still, some do fit that description pretty well. I had a lady at training stick her face in the face of an old Bulldog of mine years back.

That said, I am sure there are people out there in the U.S. who could handle either owning, or just being sensible around, dogs like Dick/Selena, Alice, and Martine are describing. It is overall a different environment in the U.S. as a general rule. It would be nice if that could correct itself, but the only time I really see people wanting the (for lack of a better word) socially-neutral dogs like Alice is describing or really sharp dogs that are neutral but looking for you to give a reason for them to bite tend to be people that are in sport, personal protection, or K9 work. That is a pretty small percentage, and sometimes even those people will complain how their husband/wife/children/parents do not get it. That is just not how most people grow up around dogs these days, and most new to working dogs in the States are probably learning on the fly unless they happen to have grown up around them.

-Cheers


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> In general I prefer a dog to be indifferent to people as long as they leave him (and me) alone. He should act as if they didn't even exist. I wouldn't like it if he accepted people touching him, let alone play with him.
> But on his own property, he should pay attention and be ready to attack if he sees someone he doesn't know.


This also fits my definition of socially (aloof) dogs which is exactly how I prefer my dogs to be. The last part, due to how I spend my recreational time, which includes my dogs doesn't quite provide a good fit however. Pay attention yes, but not ready to attack. On alert and ready to respond - indeed, but otherwise "neutral" in such a situation fits my own personal needs better.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Pay attention yes, but not ready to attack. On alert and ready to respond - indeed, but otherwise "neutral" in such a situation fits my own personal needs better.


Which in general is what I'm looking for when I buy dogs. I don't particularly care that the dog doesn't want petted by strangers. Social, to me, means pretty much what you just described.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Which in general is what I'm looking for when I buy dogs. I don't particularly care that the dog doesn't want petted by strangers. Social, to me, means pretty much what you just described.
> 
> DFrost


Same here it's not a pet .


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Marcel Aalders said:


> Sorry to interfere but think there is a large misunderstanding here !
> 
> Breeding good quality dogs for sport or practice purposes doesn't mean breeding extreme and agressive killing machines ! I know Jochie in person for instance, a real pain in the arse for a decoy because of his extreme temperament and drives but off field and at home you cannot find a more social dog. For instance his previous owner Johnny Ulrich had 2 small kids who feed Jochie by hand inside the kennel, he has to sit eat the meat or cheese from the sandwich first then he could lick the butter of the sandwich.
> A stable and balanced character is the key here ! The power you just see in work when dogs come into drive !
> ...


I think one of the reasons dogs will continue to be imported from europe is because of the way 'some' american breeders breed. I think many breeders are too quick to use a dog as a stud because his sire was extreme. From what i've read here, people like Martine and Dick will only see 1 or 2 males from various good litters that they will look at and say yes that is a stud i want. For females i think the requirements are a little less, not saying you want weak, nervy bitches but i think a bitch with high prey drive, strong nerves and medium aggression will go well with those 'extreme studs'.
If more breeders concentrated on selecting good bitches and we had more people like Martine that will just select those creme de la creme Studs to be used for breeding i think the US would produce better. That is not to say the US is not producing some really nice dogs, i think they are. And extreme i think should refer to traits like prey drive, strong nerves, endurance, justified aggression and not necessarily a dog that wants to have his handler for lunch all the time:mrgreen:

Just saying


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think one of the reasons dogs will continue to be imported from europe is because of the way 'some' american breeders breed.


What American breeders have you visited?


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## Marcel Aalders (Jun 7, 2011)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Marcel, I do agree on breeding the strongest and doing concessions, but "being social " isnt a trait we select upon. For own people they are, for stangers it depends and I don't care if they aren't.


I totally agree !
Maybe explained it the wrong way (my poor english). Of course social is no criteria in breeding. A good balanced dog without nerve problems normally has no reason for showing agression in NORMAL circumstances. That's actually my point.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Marcel Aalders said:


> I totally agree !
> Maybe explained it the wrong way (my poor english). Of course social is no criteria in breeding. A good balanced dog without nerve problems normally has no reason for showing agression in NORMAL circumstances. That's actually my point.


Exactly, a solid working dog should be able to adapt to any situation and to be social around strangers. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't have any SAR dogs out there.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> What American breeders have you visited?


You don't need to know American breeders to see that there is something horribly wrong with the "American" Shepherd. However, those are just as much bred for beauty like the high lines and there is something horribly wrong with them too. 

You've got some nice working dog breeders in the US and you've got some of the most valuable and precious, genetically important, bloodlines in the US because Germans are too stupid to keep it for themselves and in Germany you are not allowed to collect semen. So do something with it and do it right. 

You've got some of the best working stock and outstanding dogs.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> What American breeders have you visited?


None....i live in thailand, but i see a lot of websites with average looking dogs that are being used as studs, that's what i meant. I'm not bashing anybody.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I try my best to sell to people with experience, common sense and that will listen..not always the easiest thing to do. 

We have quite a few people coming to visit and many want to "pet" the dogs and the same goes when I run the Pet Expo Malinois breed booth. I always tell them _"pet" is not a verb"_. I will show people my dogs and they can watch me interact with them. If they are uncomfortable with this then it's sure they have failed my temperament test to get a puppy. Then I suggest getting a golden or lab. There are different breeds for a reason.

I do not let people pet the dogs or try too. If I can keep people from petting my dogs at a Pet Expo where there are thousands of the public then I know it's possible for an owner with 1-2 dogs to be in public w/o having people pet their dogs. 

For me "social" is indifferent to people. Social doesn't mean someone can command my dog, pet my dog, grab it's tail, etc. I sure don't want people doing this to me either. If someone wants to do these things then they should get their own dog imo. If someone wants to eat off my plate, drive my car or ride my horse, the anwer would be "no" as well.

I also own and have owned dogs that are non-social and used for breeding.

Being in France, Belgium, Holland with a dog is very refreshing because I don't have to be on "guard" when in public as much.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

> Being in France, Belgium, Holland with a dog is very refreshing because I don't have to be on "guard" when in public as much.


It is a huge difference, isn't it? Same goes for Germany. You really don't have to worry about anyone sneaking up trying to pet your dog without even asking if they can pet it. ](*,)


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> None....i live in thailand, but i see a lot of websites with average looking dogs that are being used as studs, that's what i meant. I'm not bashing anybody.


There are plenty of countries in Europe with that same problem. Many websites/breeders use their own stud just because it's there. Look at all the kennels in Europe, you can't tell me all those dOgs are the EXTREME!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Timothy Stacy said:


> There are plenty of countries in Europe with that same problem. Many websites/breeders use their own stud just because it's there. Look at all the kennels in Europe, you can't tell me all those dOgs are the EXTREME!


Not at all. There are very view kennels that really and truly go for the extreme dogs that are discussed in here.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Marcel Aalders said:


> I totally agree !
> Maybe explained it the wrong way (my poor english). Of course social is no criteria in breeding. A good balanced dog without nerve problems normally has no reason for showing agression in NORMAL circumstances. That's actually my point.


Marcel this is a good post. I feel the same way.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> None....i live in thailand, but i see a lot of websites with average looking dogs that are being used as studs, that's what i meant. I'm not bashing anybody.


Most of the Thai women found on the internet are sex workers. I'm not bashing anybody. 

When I hear about Nigerians on the internet they are scamming somebody or training baboons and hyenas. I'm not bashing anybody


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> You've got some of the best working stock and outstanding dogs.


It's funny, every single European that I have met shares the same opinion....unless they sell dogs. :wink:


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Dwyras Brown said:


> I asked in an earlier thread, but got no answer. WHen you breed extreme dogs, who will you sell them to? I have often heard that the police aren't the best handlers/trainers and sports people don't want dogs that won't get points. So why breed the dogs, with noone to handle them? What will you do with the ones that are returned to you as too hard. This is mostly for the Americans here in the land of the lawsuit. Who will you limit who you sell them to:?::?::?: Will the offspring of these dogs be in the news as vicious??? Lots of questions and things to be thought about.


Interesting thread but a bit confusing, what is the definition here of an "extreme dog" many things to different people? then "When you breed extreme dogs, who will you sell them too?" two very different things to me. Do you think a "extreme dog" depending on what ever the definition is could be the training involved with a dog? that, that is what makes it "Extreme" imo I think it has a lot to do with it not just how "extreme" the sire and dame might be or are you asking about "extreme" puppies here. If so what would be an "extreme" puppy? " will the offspring of these dogs be in the new as vicious " ?? What is your diffinition of "extreme"


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Most of the Thai women found on the internet are sex workers. I'm not bashing anybody.
> 
> When I hear about Nigerians on the internet they are scamming somebody or training baboons and hyenas. I'm not bashing anybody


lol....a little off point i would say. I don't know what part of my posts you took personal and had to say silly stuff like this to a 19 year old. I was talking about dog breeding, really that was very unnecessary[-X


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> There are plenty of countries in Europe with that same problem. Many websites/breeders use their own stud just because it's there. Look at all the kennels in Europe, you can't tell me all those dOgs are the EXTREME!


Very true, i said that because i felt it was more common in the US. That is not to say there aren't great breeders in the US, i bet there are many. I guess my statement might have been misunderstood. I hope its clearer now.
Many of the US breeders i admire have 4 or 5 females and maybe 2 males but do outside breedings when they see studs they like.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> lol....a little off point i would say. I don't know what part of my posts you took personal and had to say silly stuff like this to a 19 year old. I was talking about dog breeding, really that was very unnecessary[-X


 

The point is, we all read crazy bullshit on the internet. But if you have any sense at all you will take the time to confirm that is true.

If you really have an interest in US dogsport you should come here and check it out for yourself. I would be glad to sponsor you here in Los Angeles with a place to stay and show you around and I'm quite sure I can find others around the country that will do the same.

And I won't cut you an ounce of slack due to your age. If you want to be treated like a child go to a child's forum.


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## Brian Dascalu (Aug 7, 2011)

Christopher Jones said:


> Social is a term that also means different things to different people. To me is means the dog can be around other people without the need to show aggression, that is they do not fear people. I have a couple of females that ignore people and act as if they dont exist, but they are hoping the person gives them a reason to bite.
> To other people social means the dog seeks affection from everyone.


And this is how it should be. An "extreme" dog to some people just means teeth on a leash. A dog can be extreme and still be social. By social, I mean, as Chris so eloquently put it, " the dog can be around other people without the need to show aggression". I have a Mali bitch that is constantly looking for an excuse to bite someone, but is under control, she has worked in a crowd of 5,000 people without incident.


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## Brian Dascalu (Aug 7, 2011)

It may be useful to spell out what is considered an extreme dog on both sides of the pond just to avoid confusion


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Brian Dascalu said:


> And this is how it should be. An "extreme" dog to some people just means teeth on a leash. A dog can be extreme and still be social. By social, I mean, as Chris so eloquently put it, " the dog can be around other people without the need to show aggression". I have a Mali bitch that is constantly looking for an excuse to bite someone, but is under control, she has worked in a crowd of 5,000 people without incident.




but that wouldnt be social, that just sounds like an anti-social dog that is under control


social would seem to mean they like being around and interacting with people (but of course will still bite the person they were just playing with if given the command)

anti-social would seem to mean they dislike people (outside of their family?) and would like to bite them but know they are not permitted to

I supposed neutral would be a dog that does not care either way, would just as soon bite you as positively interact with you, but is fine doing neither.



? (just using general rational, not dog training terms)


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> None....i live in thailand, but i see a lot of websites with average looking dogs that are being used as studs, that's what i meant. I'm not bashing anybody.





the father of my dog (KNPV dutchie) was purchased by a kennel in thailand (they changed his name, it was "lucky"), I know nothing about them but they may be worth checking out


http://www.siamcrowndog.com/dog_detail.php?id=23


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

In fact, it looks like they have some nice video of him up there ( a great all around dog)


http://vimeo.com/15918364


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## Brian Dascalu (Aug 7, 2011)

Matt Grosch said:


> but that wouldnt be social, that just sounds like an anti-social dog that is under control
> 
> 
> social would seem to mean they like being around and interacting with people (but of course will still bite the person they were just playing with if given the command)
> ...


This is exactly why there is a need for people to spell out what they mean by social. "Social" doesn't have same meaning to a Police K9 handler as it does to a pet dog owner. When you add cultural diference on both sides of the pond, it becomes even more confusing. Perhaps a better word would be "civil"


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Brian Dascalu said:


> This is exactly why there is a need for people to spell out what they mean by social. "Social" doesn't have same meaning to a Police K9 handler as it does to a pet dog owner. When you add cultural diference on both sides of the pond, it becomes even more confusing. Perhaps a better word would be "civil"



Im not sure, besides my dog, one of the toughest dogs around in bitework (police k9, KNPV dog), is described by his owner as very social when not working, and safe to have around coworkers, kids, etc. And a member here that is LAPD and a K9 officer has a dog very similar to mine (pedigree) and said the same thing.

they would all be described as very serious (civil?) in bitework, but are also social dogs


Im open to being wrong, but it seems like the definition I gave is the best way for it all to make sense


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## Brian Dascalu (Aug 7, 2011)

Matt Grosch said:


> Im not sure, besides my dog, one of the toughest dogs around in bitework (police k9, KNPV dog), is described by his owner as very social when not working, and safe to have around coworkers, kids, etc. And a member here that is LAPD and a K9 officer has a dog very similar to mine (pedigree) and said the same thing.
> 
> they would all be described as very serious (civil?) in bitework, but are also social dogs
> 
> ...


Personally, I would not allow a dog trained in any kind of protection bitework to be allowed unsupervised around children


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

of course, no dog should be


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> the father of my dog (KNPV dutchie) was purchased by a kennel in thailand (they changed his name, it was "lucky"), I know nothing about them but they may be worth checking out
> 
> 
> http://www.siamcrowndog.com/dog_detail.php?id=23


Lol i visit them during my holidays, in think the lucky you are talking about is in this video

http://vimeo.com/18182959

Really nice people i would say, they have the luxury of Bert Kikkert being the head trainer and he brought some of his very good dogs from holland also. They offered me a free malinois puppy but i couldn't get a pet friendly apartment:-x


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> The point is, we all read crazy bullshit on the internet. But if you have any sense at all you will take the time to confirm that is true.
> 
> If you really have an interest in US dogsport you should come here and check it out for yourself. I would be glad to sponsor you here in Los Angeles with a place to stay and show you around and I'm quite sure I can find others around the country that will do the same.
> 
> And I won't cut you an ounce of slack due to your age. If you want to be treated like a child go to a child's forum.


Ok, point taken. Apologies for making conclusions based on 'internet findings'.


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