# Spaying a bitch....



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

My bitch is just over a year old now, and about a month ago finished her first season..

I'm not going to breed from her, and intend to have her spayed.

I'm thinking of letting her have another season and then spaying her between that and her 3rd one.

Notwithstanding her qualities, which would be a nice asset for any future pups - what would be the potential downside to spaying her?

Although nothing is guaranteed in life, is it likely to affect her behaviour, her drive, her workability..?

I'd like to hear from owners/handlers of high drive/feisty bitches who have had their bitches spayed and the effect (if any) it had..

Thanks for any advice..

Gary


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The more estrus cycles the female goes through, the higher the likelihood of mammary cancer (approximately half of which is malignant). If she's pretty much done growing as most females are by that age (males mature slower physically in many species, including ours), she should be fine. I would suggest spaying her before her next heat. The only female I own or have owned is spayed and she's pretty darn crazy for a tug. I'd like to do protection sport or agility with her if it wasn't for the FCE in her neck. Doesn't slow her down much. :smile: Some females (not all) actually can become more feisty, if you will, after being spayed because the amount of estrogen goes down. Anyways, from what I hear, it's pretty common for law enforcement officers have their females spayed if they aren't used in a breeding program so they can work all year round.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren: What about bone cancer? If you spay a bitch before she has finished growing, she is 3 times more likely to get bone cancer, which has a much worse prognosis than mammary cancer. Also I thought I read somewhere that as long as you spayed a bitch by the time she was 2.5 years you didn't substantially increase her chances of getting mammary cancer? I'll try to find the article. I'd like your feed back on it, I know better than to believe EVERYTHING I read!

Okay, I found it:
http://www2.dcn.org/orgs/ddtc/sfiles/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Females typically finish growing before males (same as in humans), so if Gary's girl is just over a year old, just finished her first heat and he spays her before her next heat (which would be in the next 4-5 months), that'd probably be plenty sufficient. I haven't raised as many pups as you guys have, but both males I've had were pretty much _mostly_ done height-wise around 10-12 months old (Fawkes seems to have plateaued in height at 26 inches over the last few months and he'll be 1 year old next month). Filling out in muscle takes a bit longer, but that's a bit different than the length of the long, weight bearing bones of the limbs, which is typically the issue in osteosarcoma. If she was a very tall breed like a wolfhound or Great Dane, it wouldn't hurt to wait until 15-18 months old, but if her growth height-wise has slowed to a stop, it's likely fine to do now.

About the article and the one by Dr. Chris Zink that makes it out there relatively frequently, here's a "rebuttal" of sorts by a vet with similar credentials (a DVM/PhD, boarded surgeon, associate professor at Texas A&M vet school) that may be interesting. 

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf

But remember, a lot of these issues are with early pediatric spay and neuter (like 2-3 months old). I talked with Dr. John Sherman (the president of the American Canine Sports Medicine Association) about this for the canine athlete and while he does agree with Dr. Zink, they both don't really seem to have a problem with doing a spay when the female has reached full height (which depends on the breed, of course). He does field trials himself and I believe he said he just happens to keep his males intact and his females spayed when they reach adulthood so they can compete all year round.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks for the clarification, Maren. :smile:


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Gary,

There is no verified reason why spaying should change the behaviour/drive of your bitch either for the better or worse. My bitch is still a pain in the a*se.

The medical side of things is covered in Susan' link.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Here is some food for thought, below is an excerpt from an article that should give you more insight into the cause and effect of spaying and nuetering your pet:

the first significant article is found in this link: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

The second is copied below for your reference.

Early Spay-Neuter Considerations 
for the Canine Athlete
One Veterinarian's Opinion
Ã‚Â© 2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP

Those of us with responsibility for the health of canine athletes need to continually read and evaluate new scientific studies to ensure that we are taking the most appropriate care of our performance dogs. This article provides evidence through a number of recent studies to suggest that veterinarians and owners working with canine athletes should revisit the standard protocol in which all dogs that are not intended for breeding are spayed and neutered at or before 6 months of age. 

*Orthopedic Considerations*
A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, who were taller than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed).(1) A study of 1444 Golden Retrievers performed in 1998 and 1999 also found bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of age were significantly taller than those spayed or neutered at more than a year of age.(2) The sex hormones, by communicating with a number of other growth-related hormones, promote the closure of the growth plates at pubjerty (3), so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. Dogs that have been spayed or neutered well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. This abnormal growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions and particularly the lengths (and therefore weights) of certain bones relative to others. For example, if the femur has achieved its genetically determined normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle likely becomes heavier (because it is longer), and may cause increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. In addition, sex hormones are critical for achieving peak bone density.(4) These structural and physiological alterations may be the reason why at least one recent study showed that spayed and neutered dogs had a higher incidence of CCL rupture.(5) Another recent study showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age, although it should be noted that in this study there were no standard criteria for the diagnosis of hip dysplasia.(6) Nonetheless, breeders of purebred dogs should be cognizant of these studies and should consider whether or not pups they bred were spayed or neutered when considering breeding decisions. 

*Cancer Considerations*
A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact males.(7) A study of 3218 dogs demonstrated that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer.(8 ) A separate study showed that neutered dogs had a two-fold higher risk of developing bone cancer.(9) Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.(10) There certainly is evidence of a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer in female dogs after one heat cycle, and for increased risk with each subsequent heat. While about 30 % of mammary cancers are malignant, as in humans, when caught and surgically removed early the prognosis is very good.(12) Luckily, canine athletes are handled frequently and generally receive prompt veterinary care. 

*Behavioral Considerations*
The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.(5) Further, the study that identified a higher incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months also showed that early age gonadectomy was associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.(6) A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(12) 

*Other Health Considerations*
A number of studies have shown that there is an increase in the incidence of female urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early (13), although this finding has not been universal. Certainly there is evidence that ovarian hormones are critical for maintenance of genital tissue structure and contractility.(14, 15) Neutering also has been associated with an increased likelihood of urethral sphincter incontinence in males.(16) This problem is an inconvenience, and not usually life-threatening, but nonetheless one that requires the dog to be medicated for life. A health survey of several thousand Golden Retrievers showed that spayed or neutered dogs were more likely to develop hypothyroidism.(2) This study is consistent with the results of another study in which neutering and spaying was determined to be the most significant gender-associated risk factor for development of hypothyroidism.(17) Infectious diseases were more common in dogs that were spayed or neutered at 24 weeks or less as opposed to those undergoing gonadectomy at more than 24 weeks.(18 ) Finally, the AKC-CHF report demonstrated a higher incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines in neutered dogs as compared to intact.(12) 


I have gathered these studies to show that our practice of routinely spaying or neutering every dog at or before the age of 6 months is not a black-and-white issue. Clearly more studies need to be done to evaluate the effects of prepubertal spaying and neutering, particularly in canine athletes.

Currently, I have significant concerns with spaying or neutering canine athletes before puberty. But of course, there is the pet overpopulation problem. How can we prevent the production of unwanted dogs while still leaving the gonads to produce the hormones that are so important to canine growth and development? One answer would be to perform vasectomies in males and tubal ligation in females, to be followed after maturity by ovariohysterectomy in females to prevent mammary cancer and pyometra. One possible disadvantage is that vasectomy does not prevent some unwanted behaviors associated with males such as marking and humping. On the other hand, females and neutered males frequently participate in these behaviors too. Really, training is the best solution for these issues. Another possible disadvantage is finding a veterinarian who is experienced in performing these procedures. Nonetheless, some do, and if the procedures were in greater demand, more veterinarians would learn them.

I believe it is important that we assess each situation individually. For canine athletes, I currently recommend that dogs and bitches be spayed or neutered after 14 months of age.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

One of the most miserable experiences in life is looking back and wishing you hadn't spayed/neutered your dog. I have a friend that has a nice Dobe that spayed her, even after an extremely nice litter. Since there is no reason to rush, maybe you wait and see what she really can be.

Working females, good ones at least are not just lying around everywhere. I have seen too many times that after they are spayed they just are not quite as good in the work, especially if done before two years of age.

As far as the health concerns, I think the risk is really small. Cancer in my experience is linked genetically, and the dogs will get it regardless of spaying ect. Plus, I would be interested to see who did the research, as spay neuters are money makers for vets. 

Still have yet to have a dog get, or die of cancer. Had quite a lot over the years. The whole thing smells a bit to me.[-X


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree with Jeff.

I have seen a number of females that were spayed too early, and their mental state just ain't "all there." Its like they never grew up all the way mentally. I personally believe a female needs at least 3 heat cycles to come into mental maturity, so spaying between 2 and 3 seems too early to me regardless of what your final decision may be. I am very observant when it comes to changes in a dogs behavior. If I spayed Lyka and noticed even the slightest change in her behavior, personality or attitude, I would feel like crap about it for years.

This obsessive spay/neuter stuff is weird to me.

If the dog is a kennel dog, then there is no issue with mess anyway.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree about them not being quite as good in the work, but I feel silly saying it since I have no way to prove it. I can only go by what I've seen with dogs and what I remember about horses. Many times gelding a horse makes it much more docile, calmer, more suitable for kids. I have seen the same thing happen with bitches and dogs.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> One of the most miserable experiences in life is looking back and wishing you hadn't spayed/neutered your dog. I have a friend that has a nice Dobe that spayed her, even after an extremely nice litter. Since there is no reason to rush, maybe you wait and see what she really can be.
> 
> Working females, good ones at least are not just lying around everywhere. I have seen too many times that after they are spayed they just are not quite as good in the work, especially if done before two years of age.
> 
> ...


Spay/neuters are money makers for vets?  Since when?! Every single vet that I have personally worked with do it as close to cost as possible as they want to encourage pet owners to do so. They are typically done for $100 or less around here. A friend of mine went to a vet who required an overnight stay and pre-op bloodwork, which drove up the price an extra $100, but the average vet is not out for making money on spays and neuters. Ask a gynecologist how much an ovariohysterectomy would be. Yikes!

In this age of no personal responsibility where the average owner thinks their female has "periods" and "I saw them back to back and couldn't separate them, what does that mean?", they have no reason to breed themselves let alone their dogs. Go on Yahoo Answers on the pet section if you don't believe some of the absolute idiocy in the general populace. 

If Gary doesn't want to breed, he doesn't want to breed. Not every male or female from a working litter needs to be bred, even if it is a nice dog. That's a huge responsibility taking care of the gestating and lactating bitch and pups, let alone all the work that goes into selecting a complimentary stud and so on. I applaud him for realizing that if that's what he wants to do. I think spaying his female when she's done growing in height is an excellent compromise between the benefits and risks of spaying.

Concerning cancer out of the 9th edition Merck Vet Manual from http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/112300.html:



> The frequency of mammary neoplasia in different species varies tremendously. The dog is by far the most frequently affected domestic species, with a prevalence ~3 times that in women; *~50% of all tumors in the bitch are mammary tumors*....About *45% of mammary tumors are malignant in dogs*, whereas ~90% are malignant in cats, and dogs have a much higher number of complex and mixed tumors than do cats....Mammary tumors in dogs are most frequent in intact bitches; they are extremely rare in male dogs. *Ovariectomy before the first estrus reduces the risk of mammary neoplasia to 0.5% of the risk in intact bitches; ovariectomy after 1 estrus reduces the risk to 8% of that in intact bitches.* *Bitches neutered after maturity have generally been considered to have the same risk as intact bitches....*The prognosis is based on multiple factors. Most mammary tumors in dogs that are going to cause death do so within 1 yr. Sarcomas are associated with shorter survival times than carcinomas. Other factors, including size of tumor, lymph node involvement, and nuclear differentiation, also affect the prognosis.


Mari, read the article I posted on the first page of the thread from the DVM PhD board certified surgeon from TAMU's vet school. She wrote a response to Dr. Zink's article.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

My opinion may be biased because of the times vets have saved my dogs lives and also because my regular vet and his wife are friends of ours, but I don't think they are so cold hearted as to suggest dogs undergo surgery (always a risk) just so they can make more money. If it was money they were after they would have become MDs instead!

As far as Garys' dog goes, I think he did ask if anyone had experience with dogs who "changed" after being spayed. I think for most people the best thing is for them to spay their bitches, not necessarily because of unwanted litters (although that is a good reason), but because I don't think the average person pays enough attention to their dogs so pyometra (sic?) and cancer can go undetected for too long.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

As Xena lives outside/kenneled.. there's not problem with mess...

I'm not really bothered about taking her out of working training for 3 weeks, twice a year....

What does concern me, is other dogs getting into my yard and doing the 'wild thing' with my little girl...and her ending up pupped with the local scrapyard dog...[-X


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> What does concern me, is other dogs getting into my yard and doing the 'wild thing' with my little girl...and her ending up pupped with the local scrapyard dog...[-X


That's an interesting point, actually. Before the push for spaying and neutering, about 15 years ago, my first family dog when I was little was a Brittany from nice field trial lines (or so my parents said). He was intact and one day darted between our legs out the front door, climbed a 6 foot chain link fence and mated with our neighbor's 6 or 7 month old chow chow going through her first heat.  As she was from champion show lines and a show prospect, my father and her owner were not too good of friends after she ended up having to have an emergency spay. Barney got an appointment to get neutered the next day. [-( Where there is a will, there is a way... :roll:


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Gary Garner said:


> What does concern me, is other dogs getting into my yard and doing the 'wild thing' with my little girl...


I thought the same things with my intact girl - but really there has been no packs of horny males breaking down my door.:-s :-o No problems, even with my two intact male Mals - granted, one is still a pup, still trying to figure out what is going on, but Cyko knows full well and hasn't lost his mind over her and still obeys me. Is your kennel roofed over? Is it bolted into concrete? Is it locked? It's been perfectly mangeable for me, though I know a lot of people who act as if to have a female in heat means attracting wild males from all around. I have yet to see that:razz:. Are there a lot of strays where you live? 

The reason why my Candy is not spayed, I saw a big improvement in her temperament with each heat. She started out a bit nervy and skittish, but has gained confidence and I guess you'd say mental maturity. Still as willing and active to do things, but calmer and more focused, less hyperactive, less likely to get frantic when stressed. Don't really know the right terminology - but I like what I see happening. I saw the most of the changes with her first three heats, not much now with the fourth.

My rescue, Inka, was spayed at 6 weeks old. She is the most mentally weird dog I've had, and I am convinced the two are linked.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> I'm not really bothered about taking her out of working training for 3 weeks, twice a year....


Gary, this is the biggest mistake people make!

By doing this they teach the dog "when you're in heat, you don't have to work." Bitches in heat are perfectly capable of continuing to work, and the males at training learn to not be distracted by a bitch in heat when they are working. Some bitches get 10x more aggressive when they're in heat too, its fun to watch 

Do you have a garage? I'd kennel her in there while she's in heat if you are worried about stray dogs, but I've never seen a strange dog around my house when Lyka's been in heat. Cujo sits by the dang door all day long of the room she's in, but other than that, no issues.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

*I'd like to hear from owners/handlers of high drive/feisty bitches who have had their bitches spayed and the effect (if any) it had*

I had my female Malinois spayed a few months back, she had just turned 2 years old - every heat cycle was accompanied by false pregnancies that reaked havoc upon her mentally and physically. I'm pretty entuned to this bitch and was actually hoping for a "change" but there has been *none in terms of her temperment, drive or working ability *- of course no more false pregnancies or the "craziness" that accompanied them*.* She's still the feisty high drive _nervey _bitch (in every sense of the word) that she was before. Had it not been for the false pregnancies and the problems they caused her and everyone else living here.... I would have probably left her intact and just never bred her.

That being said......up until her last heat cycle it had not been difficult keeping my other two males (who also live in the house) from mating with her - as well as the neighborhood dogs - even though she would "flag" everyone and anything when she was ready. Just had to be vigalant and keep my boys and the neighborhood "crew" away from her. Her last heat cycle - Zane (9 months old at the time) performed a Hudini from a brand new Vari-Kennel crate and went through a screened house window to have a "go" with her - thankfully we had time to interrupt their "plans". A metal crate, that I had lent to someone, would have prevented something like this...but as others have stated - where there is a will.....there is a way


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> By doing this they teach the dog "when you're in heat, you don't have to work." Bitches in heat are perfectly capable of continuing to work, and the males at training learn to not be distracted by a bitch in heat when they are working. Some bitches get 10x more aggressive when they're in heat too, its fun to watch


Yeah Mike as usual has hit it on the head. During my bitches last heat I still brought her to French Ring training sure her OB was off because of her hormones. But holy cow did she ever pound on the decoy. Maybe it was the embarrassment of having to wear her doggy diaper while training!! Plus it was good for the male dogs to get a 'whiff' as they still had to train too! 

I find my bitch's heats to be really a non event sure there is some blood drops but I found it all in all easy to manage, by crating and some extra vigilance on my part.


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## Mark Sloan (Feb 28, 2008)

I spayed my female at 3 years and 3 months. I have noticed no changes in temperament.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

I believe it best to allow a dog to fully mature mentally and phyically before spaying/neutering. For bitches that generally means no sooner than around 2 years old, and for males not until 3 or so. Waiting until maturity pretty much eliminates affects the spay/neuter may have on personality or physical development.

We always spay our bitches if we're not going to breed them, and spay our broodbitches when they're retired from breeding. We do it mainly to eliminate the chance of uterine infections and also out of convenience for ourselves since they're housedogs and we have intact males. It hasn't affected them in the least from a personality or working standpoint.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

No spaying/neutering here. All females and most dogs are intact. Only 1 dog is spayed for medical reasons (repeatly infections to his testicles and prostaat ( don't know english word) by hyper sexuality when our broodbitches are in heat). Medical reasons are the only reasons to spay (uterine infections, heavy repeated semi pregnancies etc,).

We seperate all dogs all the time, so no troubles during heats. both males as females work through the heats, the boys have to manage if it smells good, the girls have to work normally during the heat (also in ob!!).

Dick did a PH1 trial with Nika during her heat, 439 out of 440....


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I spayed Cali for health reasons a couple of years ago, and saw a definite difference. Not mentally but physically. Her stamina and heat tolerance took a big dive. Not something the average pet dog owner would notice, but definitely something someone who was working their dogs would notice. I tried a number of things, switched her to a raw diet, herbal horomone supplements, etc and never did see her regain her original stamina or heat tolerance. Finally she was semi-retired for other reasons, but I think the spay was the beginning of the end, at least for her ability to participate in the more demanding sports. 

I will not spay a dog that I'm actively training/competing. After they are retired I'll consider it, but even then it's not something I'll automatically do, Nature will be 11 soon and she's still intact, with no plans to change that status any time soon, unless I see a health issue come up that would require it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Spay/neuters are money makers for vets?  Since when?! Every single vet that I have personally worked with do it as close to cost as possible as they want to encourage pet owners to do so. They are typically done for $100 or less around here.

Wow, toting the party line already. Might want to check out the prices in other places, as they are higher, as well as the amount of time it takes to neuter a dog. 1 incision, and snip a tube. So the total time was what, 2 minutes??? How much was the anethesia??? So yes, they are money makers. If they are not, then I am not sure what it is that you are doing with the dog to not rake in a profit with 2 dollars of anethesia, and whatever small cost a scalpel is.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Spay/neuters are money makers for vets?  Since when?! Every single vet that I have personally worked with do it as close to cost as possible as they want to encourage pet owners to do so. They are typically done for $100 or less around here.
> 
> Wow, toting the party line already. Might want to check out the prices in other places, as they are higher, as well as the amount of time it takes to neuter a dog. 1 incision, and snip a tube. So the total time was what, 2 minutes??? How much was the anethesia??? So yes, they are money makers. If they are not, then I am not sure what it is that you are doing with the dog to not rake in a profit with 2 dollars of anethesia, and whatever small cost a scalpel is.


PLUS, Licensing, insurance, staff wages, rents or mtg, equipment, medications, etc.. 

AND to that you must add in a nice PROFIT. 
Maren, veterinarians in my area do make decent money, on all their services, they are certainly not just breaking even, so in that sense, yes indeed spaying/neutering can generate a tidy sum! Not money hand over fist like some MDs, but they are living comfortably - nothing wrong with that!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I wonder why so many european countries don't have as big a problem with pet overpopulation as we do? Most of my european friends are the same as Selena, they don't spay/neuter unless there is a health issue.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I wonder why so many european countries don't have as big a problem with pet overpopulation as we do? Most of my european friends are the same as Selena, they don't spay/neuter unless there is a health issue.


that's mostly working dog people, pet people are usually advised to spay/neuter by their vets. Although it also get less with pet people to automatically spay/neuter.

I don't do it, but if you want to: do it after 3rd heat (after 18 mo-2 yrs) so the female is all grown.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

no specific quote just commenting on viewpoints about whether or not spaying changes a dog.[/QUOTE said:


> I have a dog who changed after being spayed. This change was observed by many who have known this dog her entire life. As a matter of fact everyone who has seen her since being spayed has noticed it. She plays, where she wouldn't before. Previous to being spayed I tried every trick in the book to get her to play with me but with limited success. Now she'll play with paper, balls, tugs, chairs, you name it and the bigger the item is the better. She's more affectionate as well now. She's far less likely to roam off whereas prior to being spayed she roamed around with her nose to the ground most of the time. Honestly, I'd never have believed it if I hadn't seen it first hand. This change also occurred within about 1 week of being spayed.
> 
> I also worked with a dog that seemed to lose her head when she went into heat. Normally, I wouldn't say any dog is a prime candidate for spaying (I don't entertain those debates with anyone) but this one was as far as I was concerned. I say that because there was a marked behavior change when she started her heat. It was that obvious and from a training perspective it appeared to put her in a very conflicted state.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

My female Mal is the same before and after a spay. She would also work the same in heat. Didn't want to do it but a unfortunate Pyometra threw a wrench in the works.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> My female Mal is the same before and after a spay. She would also work the same in heat. Didn't want to do it but a unfortunate Pyometra threw a wrench in the works.


Ditto here, except Jesea developed Pannus.....and I was taking no chances with a male that tends to chew threw fencing to get out when bitches are in heat.

Gary, 

I would wait til she is older...Jesea was 4 (I waited a heat cycle to spay her) and so far, no issues at all.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Obviously this thread is now quite old......

Xena is now 2 years and 8 months old and I've still not decided whether or not I'm breeding from her (Sit down Jeff :-# ), or whether I'll spay her or what..

I guess I'm just enjoying her being how she is and I don't want to change that in any way, any time soon..


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

LOL....this board is out of control....wacko posts, jokes on the wimmins and now older threads coming out of the closet.....

Didn't even look at the original post date...just panicked when I saw that it was Xena we were talking about....

Glad to hear that you are keeping her intact.....for now.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> Obviously this thread is now quite old......
> 
> Xena is now 2 years and 8 months old and I've still not decided whether or not I'm breeding from her (Sit down Jeff :-# ), or whether I'll spay her or what..
> 
> I guess I'm just enjoying her being how she is and I don't want to change that in any way, any time soon..


and she is a FREAK!!! :lol: ...............you know I mean that in the best possible way! I would imagine there are a few people in your part of the world and abroad, who would jump at the chance for a Xena pup. I remembered this thread from when you started it and saw you had posted again to it so I was holding my breath to see what, if anything you had decided.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gary Garner said:


> Obviously this thread is now quite old......


I noticed that. :-o Course, I didn't comment on it to address your original question because I know you have since considered the possibility of breeding her. I commented on it because someone else had a question recently which linked to this thread. It seemed like a relevant place to add my own experience since it came up again.


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## Mike D'Abruzzo (Oct 6, 2009)

Haha! I was reading the thread too with my heart pounding a little more than usual when I realized it was Xena. Big sigh when I reached the latter posts. I love that dog Gary, big fan of her youtube videos! didnt realize it was an old post.

The fantasy of having a Xena pup still lives even if she never is bred!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Mike D'Abruzzo said:


> The fantasy of having a Xena pup still lives even if she never is bred!


Yep....if she is ever spayed.....we will dream no more....he won't do it to us..he's not that mean...LOL :lol:


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

> They are typically done for $100 or less around here.


Really???? My little sister just paid $423 for a SPAY! My dad paid $490 for a Cryptorchid neuter!!!!! At their vet, my vet was more reasonable but let's face it, it's their job. They have to make money somewhere. 

The speuter freaks drive business to them so they make more money now on them than they did in the past IMHO. Speutering should be done on an individual basis. I find that a ton of rescue fols push speuter WAY more, as they should. BUT Speutering my working dog is not an option for me....get over it people...my dog is keeping his balls. lol lol lol Yeah, just had a "discussion" on another forum about speutering. 

If you want too, GREAT, if not oh freaking well. 

Courtney


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Cryptorchid neuters suck. A LOT. You often have to do a full exploratory celiotomy on those ones if you can't find it right away (i.e.-if it's not just stuck in the vaginal ring of the inguinal canal). The one in the abdomen is often smaller than the one in the scrotum and can be floating around anywhere. It's even worse on a horse (which are also not uncommon), so they often go the laparoscopic route. The price on that one doesn't surprise me a ton, to be honest. 

$400+ is a lot for a spay, but hopefully she got pain meds, intubation anesthesia, pre-meds, sterile gown/cap/mask, warming pad, sterile drapes, IV catheter and fluids, pre-anesthesia blood work, sterile instruments, really good suture, a scrub nurse to assist the doctor and a nurse anesthetist to monitor the patient on a full EKG, an overnight stay, and so on all at an American Animal Hospital Association accredited hospital. Then that price doesn't surprise me. 

If the vet was just using injectables, not doing any monitoring, no pre-anesthesia blood work, not making her stay the night, no fluids, etc, THEN I wouldn't be so happy about it. While an ovariohysterectomy would be tens of thousands of dollars for a human patient (and probably rightly so, as it's major abdominal surgery), I think they should be priced as to not discourage the typical clueless pet owner feeding Ol' Roy from getting it done when the dog has no need to breed. But JMHO and experience, as none of the vets I have shadowed or worked with ever made any amount of profit on doing spays and neuters. But that may be different on the coasts vs. midwest. Your mileage may vary.

Always remember there are those that price gouge (AKA: charge a bunch, but you don't get much), but you often get what you pay for in veterinary medicine. I got my cat neutered for $25 at the shelter and I knew he didn't get *any* frills (I gave him pain meds afterwards). But I also know if I would have taken him to the vet school, he would have gotten all the above stuff for several times as much. I don't see a problem in charging what you're worth. If you're offering all the above stuff and people want it, charge for it. For people who don't, there's the free/low cost spay neuter clinics. *shrug*


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

> $400+ is a lot for a spay, but hopefully she got pain meds, intubation anesthesia, pre-meds, sterile gown/cap/mask, warming pad, sterile drapes, IV catheter and fluids, pre-anesthesia blood work, sterile instruments, really good suture, a scrub nurse to assist the doctor and a nurse anesthetist to monitor the patient on a full EKG, an overnight stay, and so on all at an American Animal Hospital Association accredited hospital. Then that price doesn't surprise me.



No, the vet isn't AAHA accredited. I'm not sure I like that org. so I steer away from them, plus the AAHA hospitals here are SHIT. No overnight stay, no catheter, EKG BEFORE the spay began but wasn't monitored. Oh, she was glued, no sutures! 

So not worth it IMHO. Well, he has to pay for his new building somehow and he specializes in Boxers(what they own). I won't pay his prices. I was quoted $600-900 from him for OFA X-rays. I went to my vet and including the fees to OFA was under $200. I'd say that other one makes plenty of money on people.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Really???? My little sister just paid $423 for a SPAY! My dad paid $490 for a Cryptorchid neuter!!!!! At their vet, my vet was more reasonable but let's face it, it's their job. They have to make money somewhere.
> 
> The speuter freaks drive business to them so they make more money now on them than they did in the past IMHO. Speutering should be done on an individual basis. I find that a ton of rescue fols push speuter WAY more, as they should. BUT Speutering my working dog is not an option for me....get over it people...my dog is keeping his balls. lol lol lol Yeah, just had a "discussion" on another forum about speutering.
> 
> ...


Bring the dog here. For those kind of numbers you can get a free vacation thrown in. The price at the vets office in Hojancha, Costa Rica is 50 bucks. I'm not sure they use anesthesia. Just kidding about the anesthesia.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> So not worth it IMHO. Well, he has to pay for his new building somehow and he specializes in Boxers(what they own). I won't pay his prices. I was quoted $600-900 from him for OFA X-rays. I went to my vet and including the fees to OFA was under $200. I'd say that other one makes plenty of money on people.


Wow that's ridiculous for OFA...I called around and got quotes and my best quote was $175 for OFA $300 something for PennHip...and worst was $4-500 for OFA and I didn't bother asking about Pennhip because I hung up. 

Spay and Neuter though, it really depends on the vet. Some of them around here wanted $400 for a 55 lb dog (APBT) so I ended up calling the low cost clinic who said $65, then I ended up giving the dog away anyway but that's another story.

If a low cost clinic can do it for $65 where's that $400 coming from? Sure for $65 no painkillers or blood work, but the one I called that wanted somewhere in the range of $300 said painkillers and blood work were "extra".

So now I take my dog 45 miles away to go to a reasonable vet that isn't trying to gouge me.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> If a low cost clinic can do it for $65 where's that $400 coming from? Sure for $65 no painkillers or blood work, but the one I called that wanted somewhere in the range of $300 said painkillers and blood work were "extra".
> 
> So now I take my dog 45 miles away to go to a reasonable vet that isn't trying to gouge me.


Almost all low cost spay/neuter clinics are subsidized by donations or private or public grants/funds/tax dollars or the doctors donate their time/supplies. They typically don't do pre-anesthesia blood work, use injectable anesthesia, no pre-meds, +/- inhalant anesthesia, no e-collar, +/- pain meds (I'd give them that no matter what), no drapes/gowns/masks/caps, one small surgical pack, no monitoring, no fluids, no IV catheter, go home right afterwards, etc.

Unless you guys really see the behind the scenes of surgery, it's hard to get an idea of the gamut of the price it can run. Remember, you're not only paying for the equipment in the OR/recovery area, the anesthesia and anesthesia machines, the bare minimum supplies (needles, syringes, autoclaveable/disposable sterile clamps, scalpel, hemostats, forceps, spay hook, suture/glue, surgical scrub, clippers, surgical gloves) +/- recommended things to have (like drapes, gowns, masks, monitoring equipment, warming equipment, IV fluids, catheters, etc.), you're also paying for the building and its upkeep and overhead, techs/nurses/kennel workers/receptionists/office manager, your own time as the doctor, and so on. So when you pay for your spay or neuter, that also helped to pay for the copy paper that you signed the release form with and the receptionist who booked your appointment and got your medications ready to go.

So even if you're good at doing spays/neuters and can do a neuter in 5-10 minutes and spay in 10-15 minutes, all that cost adds up. Veterinary medicine is actually much, much better at controlling costs than human medicine. But just because they're animals doesn't mean it is easier to do the surgery and that our time as doctors is less valuable. Same thing with dentists or any other health professional where you pay for stuff out of pocket. I won't price gouge, but I will charge what I'm worth.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

AMEN, maren. 

like my dear departed Mom used to say (about shoes): "it's worth paying for quality, it lasts longer".


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