# How to 'combine' new and old dog training?



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

I'm ordering the Koehler training book, and hopefully a crate (I say hopefully bc my mom thinks crates and training is 'cruel'), and a lot of people say combining the new and old training is the best. But how do you do that? What is an example of that? What kind of new training, Michael Ellis, Bart Bellon, Ivan Balabanov, other people? I would buy some Michael Ellis but I don't have any more $ left from dog sitting.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Join a dog training club and learn from them...Even if you dont have a dog, I am sure many people would take a young apprentice and teach fundamentals of decoy work and then handling... 

This is a path you must follow yourself, under the guidance of a good trainer. 


Regards


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## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

I REALLY want to join a club, go to seminars, anything, I just don't have a way of getting there at the moment. But as soon as I do I will go.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don't waste your money on Koehler. The training is 30 years out of date and while it may work, so will a rope. Stick with Michael Ellis stuff. Lots of information is available for free on the Leerburg website. Taking different techniques from various trainers works when you have a little more experience. For now I'd pick one style of training and stick with that.


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## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don't waste your money on Koehler. The training is 30 years out of date and while it may work, so will a rope. Stick with Michael Ellis stuff. Lots of information is available for free on the Leerburg website. Taking different techniques from various trainers works when you have a little more experience. For now I'd pick one style of training and stick with that.


Okay Ill go check that out


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

a couple of years ago there was a long thread on here regarding Koehler. I think I stated in that thread that those methods have no place in modern training. Of course a number of diehard Koehler people came on here and claimed how great it was. Like Thomas said it is extremely antiquated and obsolete by todays standards. This included some LE types. I trained dogs in the method for over 20 years but once I started in Schutzhund it was immediately apparent to me even as a complete novice that there was no place for it. It is pretty much a compulsion based method of training in the classic sense. 

What you get when you train in a method of basically hurting the dog and simultaneously giving a command, or hurting the dog immediately after giving a command is a dog that associates the command with pain. What you end up getting is a dog that looks pained or at the very best a dull expression during the work. In the scoring in Schutzhund much attention is given to what the dog's expression is. You need an enthusiastic appearance in the dog. Compulsion will not get your there. It is also difficult to get speedy responses out of a compulsion based teaching method. 

Now I am not saying that one should not use corrections. Once a dog has been taught a command and shows it knows a command with good expression then you introduce corrections, and then corrections for a dog not doing the command under distraction. This might be what you are referring to as a combination of old and modern. Even so it is not what they did in the old days. The dog needs to work while being corrected. The correction cannot come in the form of compulsion where the dog is corrected/forced into the correct position. This is you doing the work for him and the dog is not working.

I know the Michael Ellis stuff used to be available via streaming on the Leerburg site. If you want to know what the Koehler method was about keep checking Goodwill stores or look on ebay. That way you are not spending money you do not have for something you will really not need. I think from an educational historical sense it is worth reading. There is a part at the beginning of the book where he describes some sentimental types reactions from watching some training. That portion alone is priceless and actually is still valid in a sense. Sometimes if you have a real dog, those corrections, even in modern training, can be intense. The biggest difference is the method is not a part of the teaching process, it is a part of proofing what has already been taught.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm a huge Ellis fan also. I started with Koehler back in the 50s. It does work but most of it trains WITH correction instead of reward based training AND correction as with Ellis.
I agree with Thomas about sticking to one method but there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't read and try to understand different methods of training. There can be good info in most all of it.
Those with years of training experience probably use a little bit of most everything.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> I know the Michael Ellis stuff used to be available via streaming on the Leerburg site.


Still is. Tons of free Ellis video clips.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm a huge Ellis fan also. I started with Koehler back in the 50s. It does work but most of it trains WITH correction instead of reward based training AND correction as with Ellis.
> I agree with Thomas about sticking to one method but there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't read and try to understand different methods of training. There can be good info in most all of it.
> Those with years of training experience probably use a little bit of most everything.



Saved me some typing. 

I too am a huge Ellis fan. Not just with my own dogs, but in the past few years using his version of marker training, I've seen the owners of other dogs I work with stick with it way better than in days of yore. I think it's because they have such a good time.


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## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Yeah I want a speedy 'happy to obey' dog. I didn't know Koehler was all about correction correction correction, I just wanted an all around training book/dvd that was well known. I got a lot of things I'd like to work on but don't know who/where to get my training info from and how to get the ball rolling, since everyone in the dog world has their own opinion. I get what you are saying about the Koehler book, if I see a cheap one pop up somehwere I'll read it, and anything other good training books I can get my hands on to get a wider variety of training perspectives. I like the Ellis I've seen so far on video ill just stick with that, plus like Connie said they're free.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Yeah I want a speedy 'happy to obey' dog. I didn't know Koehler was all about correction correction correction, I just wanted an all around training book/dvd that was well known. I got a lot of things I'd like to work on but don't know who/where to get my training info from and how to get the ball rolling, since everyone in the dog world has their own opinion. I get what you are saying about the Koehler book, if I see a cheap one pop up somehwere I'll read it, and anything other good training books I can get my hands on to get a wider variety of training perspectives. I like the Ellis I've seen so far on video ill just stick with that, plus like Connie said they're free.


Seems to be a range of information out there, from don't ever correct, to beat them into submission training.

I agree that Michael Ellis is the best that I have seen! He makes training fun for the dog, what could be better?


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## Jim Leon (Jan 21, 2010)

I took my female through the 10 week Koehler novice method as soon as I got her as a green 10 month old. Through that, there were no corrective turns once the dog got the gross aspect of the command. It was a quick and productful 10 weeks and the corrective turns were sporadic and impersonal.

Once through the Koehler method, switched her over to a prong collar and ball rewards for sharp obedience and learning multiple nuanced commands. Then the fun really started for both of us.

I don't see that the Koehler work had any negative effect on the dog at all. If anything it layed a foundation for a very solid heel, down/sit stay and a sure off-leash recall.

Working her with ball reward of course gets her very attentive and enthused about working. And its the best way for me to control her on the street.

I have had experience with Koehler method and I do incorporate aspects of it into training. But, I will say that just picking up a Koehler book, reading it and then starting in on one's own to train a dog can certainly result in much frustration for both dog and owner.

Koehler is designed to be trained in a 10 week class setting with an experienced trainer leading the class. It is very common for someone attempting to do Koehler on their own to over correct and actually start strong arming the choke collar,making the corrections very personal to the dog, which is not the proper way to apply the method.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> if I see a cheap one pop up somehwere I'll read it, and anything other good training books I can get my hands on to get a wider variety of training perspectives.QUOTE]
> 
> Check out www.abebooks.com. I can usually find very cheap, used books that are still in good condition through that site. I did a quick search for "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" and there are 131 results ...of course not every one matches that exactly but there was at least one copy for $1.00.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Caitlin Beaumont said:
> 
> 
> > if I see a cheap one pop up somehwere I'll read it, and anything other good training books I can get my hands on to get a wider variety of training perspectives.QUOTE]
> ...


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jim Leon said:


> I took my female through the 10 week Koehler novice method as soon as I got her as a green 10 month old. Through that, there were no corrective turns once the dog got the gross aspect of the command. It was a quick and productful 10 weeks and the corrective turns were sporadic and impersonal.
> 
> Once through the Koehler method, switched her over to a prong collar and ball rewards for sharp obedience and learning multiple nuanced commands. Then the fun really started for both of us.
> 
> ...


Hey it works. I used it for 20 years as well as did a 10 week course at one point. As in everything in regards to dog training it is all relative. When I started in a high quality Schutzhund club 9 years ago, I quickly discovered that in terms of getting top flight results the Koehler method was obsolete. That was then. Overall in the 9 years since I started the training, at least that I am involved in has evolved immensely making the Koehler method even more obsolete.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I still have my two original Koehler books I bought in the 60s. :razz: :razz: ;-)


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I think it all depends on the kind of dog you have. I understand these motivational training methods work but are not as simple as everyone is making it seem. to me the Koehler method is easier for a novice to use. I have seen experience trainers mark the wrong behaviors,not break down the exercise. You can use compulsion without killing the dog. jmho


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think it all depends on the kind of dog you have. I understand these motivational training methods work but are not as simple as everyone is making it seem. to me the Koehler method is easier for a novice to use. I have seen experience trainers mark the wrong behaviors,not break down the exercise. You can use compulsion without killing the dog. jmho



I would argue a harsher training method in a novice's hands could deadly...easier sure, but you can do a lot of damage with improper correct, both physically and mentally. I had a neighbor growing up who was following a Koehler training handbook essentially break the neck of his dog....it was a little terrier thing, he was following the directions and yanked way to hard at the wrong angle....the dog didn't make it

The worst a novice (or even an experienced trainer) is going to do with marker training is have to correct a behavior brought on by a bad mark...it isn't going to kill or severely injure your dog. Yeah it sucks (my ACD has still be known to rear up into a stand, fall on his side and flail when asked to crawl, and for the longest time his down in motion included howling) but it won't hurt your dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think it all depends on the kind of dog you have. I understand these motivational training methods work but are not as simple as everyone is making it seem. to me the Koehler method is easier for a novice to use. I have seen experience trainers mark the wrong behaviors,not break down the exercise. You can use compulsion without killing the dog. jmho


I'm glad you pointed that out.

There are courses still running in Germany "Zuckerbrot und Peitsche" run by Jogi Zank & Co. Translated this means more or less "reward and whip".

I have no doubt that the pup can be trained motivationally (more or less).

However, when, especially the male species attains the age of 11+ months you will find it difficult (maybe) to attract his attention with rewards. The up and coming male species, especially, has other thoughts in his hormone driven thoughts!

A sharpened prong (which does not hurt him in the least, will draw his attention to you much quicker than a blunt prong which will cause pain by the time it has reached his pain / attention) threshhold) and you can carry on your training with him.

In my mind there is no successful training to be absolved that is only done motivationally. 

In my mind it is unfair to the pup to let him think life is just one sweet go along and then later to clamp so much harder on him because he resists.

It's also unfair to let handlers assume that just motivational training will bring results.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think it's a rare "green" trainer that can do well with any method right out of a book. It all works but the need for supervision is necessary in the VAST majority of cases. 
Look into all of it. Watch and listen to anyone you can with all the different methods and decide what *you *and *your dog *need to be effective. That in itself can be hard to decide with a green handler. 
I'm a huge reward/marker based fan but I have no problems at all with anyone that is successful with their dogs. 
I've used both reward based markers and no correction and correction based only with nothing more then the occasional pat on the head. I've had a fair amount of luck with both but down the middle with a strong lean towards reward based markers is where I've settled in my old age. Doesn't make me better OR smarter. Just where I'm at now. That may change in my next 67 yrs. 
Most any dog will benefit from both when done correctly. "Correctly" is where the problems begin. :lol::wink:


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm glad you pointed that out.
> 
> There are courses still running in Germany "Zuckerbrot und Peitsche" run by Jogi Zank & Co. Translated this means more or less "reward and whip".
> 
> ...


That sounds interesting . Do they give the course in english?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm glad you pointed that out.
> 
> There are courses still running in Germany "Zuckerbrot und Peitsche" run by Jogi Zank & Co. Translated this means more or less "reward and whip".
> 
> ...


I agree it sounds interesting.

The prong seems to be a tool that gets all sorts of uses or terms thrown at it.Some use it for correction like above and others seem to use it as a corrective drive builder.

I also think most dogs weather taught motivationally or not know about correction just through there life at home.So it shouldnt be a huge shock to them


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> That sounds interesting . Do they give the course in english?


I spent 5 days with Jogi, I don't think I exactly heard that term. I seem to remember the term Bart Bellon used much more..ne po po.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

_A sharpened prong (which does not hurt him in the least, will draw his attention to you much quicker than a blunt prong which will cause pain by the time it has reached his pain / attention) threshhold) and you can carry on your training with him._


How many people agree with this?

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> That sounds interesting . Do they give the course in english?


http://www.fluchtweg.org/67.html


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe8Tk-YkpRk


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> _A sharpened prong (which does not hurt him in the least, will draw his attention to you much quicker than a blunt prong which will cause pain by the time it has reached his pain / attention) threshhold) and you can carry on your training with him._
> 
> 
> How many people agree with this?
> ...


How many people have used such a prong? 

Over here in Germany and Switzerland it was customary to use the sharpened version. 

The prong blunt or otherwise has been forbidden in Switzerland for a few years now, just as the e-collar has been.

I don't wish to start a discussion on cruelty in training but would like to add that it will never boil down to just using the above two tools.

There is more than one way to skin a cat


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> _A sharpened prong (which does not hurt him in the least, will draw his attention to you much quicker than a blunt prong which will cause pain by the time it has reached his pain / attention) threshhold) and you can carry on your training with him._
> 
> 
> How many people agree with this?
> ...


I've never sharpened the prongs BUT I do use mini prong collars instead of the medium or large prongs, because I get a better response with less effort.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

I don't. All you need to do is put a sharpened prong around your neck/waist/leg/whatever and give it a pop. It's a simple experiment, with a simple conclusion.

Gillian is from the land of the Iron Boot. These ideas are pervasive there. Are they bad ideas? I guess it depends on who you ask..... Does it get the job done? I guess so since there seem to be a lot of these people in competition. 

To me, the result does not always justify the means.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I"ve never heard Switzerland called "the land of the Iron boot" ?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> I don't. All you need to do is put a sharpened prong around your neck/waist/leg/whatever and give it a pop. It's a simple experiment, with a simple conclusion.
> 
> Gillian is from the land of the Iron Boot. These ideas are pervasive there. Are they bad ideas? I guess it depends on who you ask..... Does it get the job done? I guess so since there seem to be a lot of these people in competition.
> 
> To me, the result does not always justify the means.


You might try putting a fur collar round your neck first.

What gives you the right to discriminate me as being from the land of the Iron Boot. I have never heard of this description before *but can only see it as racism and it has absolutely no place on this forum.*

The Germans, the Swiss, the Austrians and many other countries have used the sharpened prong for years. Konrad Most used it. One could argue, as do many veterinary surgeons over here, that the blunt prongs cause more damage as more force has to be used, causing pain and internal injury to the animals. 

I am disgusted at posts like this.

From the so-called Iron Boot land, although born in England, but tainted according to you by a German Grandfather.

I would also add I have never resorted to any sort of violence with my dogs and neither have many of my colleagues.

You have really made my retirement from this forum easy.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Nothing wrong with using a prong collar.Nothing wrong with using an E-collar either.
The way in which they are used and the reason they are used (context,type of dog,behavior needed to be shaped etc) all influence the tool selection.I don't think it is the tool that needs to be discussed but the way to use it.
I have and would use a prong again if needed,but in the right fashion.Ignoring this is ignoring that a trainer might need this for certain situations and certain dogs.
Mike


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

WHAT?!? What does rascism have to do with Iron Boots?

A trainer from EUROPE once told me "You treat 'em, we beat 'em." I'm I wrong in assessing that in Europe the training can be a bit heavy handed? That's what I mean by Iron Boot.

I'm talking about what's acceptable as a dog training culture in different parts of the world. 

The reason why Switzerland outlawed e-collars and prongs is becuause they feel it's cruel. That's not what I said, that's what the Swiss determined....

I also heard a story about a Swiss trainer who claimed they were "All Positive" and they didn't use e-collar or prongs to train (and that made them a positive trainer). And when the dog wouldn't out on the suit, they ran down the field and grabbed the dog in face, lifted it off the ground and proceeded to give it one hell of a social/physical correction. 

I also noted that I wasn't commenting on whats RIGHT OR WRONG. I didn't say using a prong (sharpened or otherwise) was wrong. I pointed out that it hurts. Hell, a fursaver and good yank hurts.

MY POINT was that just because something WORKS (like the Khoeler Method OR Sharpened Prongs) doesn't mean I'm going to necessarily add it to the heeling (or insert skill here) tool box.

As you pointed out Gillian, there is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

You can see my usage of the term 'Iron Boot' in this thread also - http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f11/arrogant-dominant-dogs-stays-25064/

Racial slur?!?!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The iron boot comment will not be used again. Maybe it just an age thing for me but I also find it offensive. 
Dissagee whole heartedly if you wish but not with insults.
I also don't agree with a sharpened pinch but it's very easy for me to say that knowing that it doesn't automatically make the user an evil person. TO ME, that's exactly what I see with the inflection towards someone "from the land of the Iron Boot".......which that poster definitely is not!


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I have not personally used a sharpened prong. I do use a medium sized prong and not a large one with blunt points. If I was training a hard GSD with the heavier fur then I could see the benefit. With a thin coated Dobermann I do not see the benefit, at least with the dogs I have worked. I know people who do use a sharpened prong. I do not disrespect these trainers. 

In terms of Europe having heavier handed trainers..there are heavy handed trainers everywhere. 

Gillan, please do not give people more power in their statements than you need to.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for this. Aimee likes her books!!
> ...


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> I spent 5 days with Jogi, I don't think I exactly heard that term. I seem to remember the term Bart Bellon used much more..ne po po.


yeah I saw the link put up by Gillian and if I'm going to use a system I might as well go to the master. thanks Gillian


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I cant comment on the prong because I have never seen one let alone used one. However I have had quite few conversation with someone who trains dobermans in obedience, is very successfull and swears by the khoeler method. 

She told me that the majority of people who claim to train using Khoeler have no idea how to correctly train by this method. She uses corrections but they are subtle and well timed and praise is a big part of her training as is breaking the behaviours down into small chunks so the dog can understand readily what she wants. She does use e collars etc. She uses the minimum amount of force, and makes sure she trains in a way that minimim force or correction is all she needs. She reckons if you need a lot of force you are doing something very wrong. She is very big on foundation work.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I use the sharpened prong if necesarry.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I cant comment on the prong because I have never seen one let alone used one. However I have had quite few conversation with someone who trains dobermans in obedience, is very successfull and swears by the khoeler method.
> 
> She told me that the majority of people who claim to train using Khoeler have no idea how to correctly train by this method. She uses corrections but they are subtle and well timed and praise is a big part of her training as is breaking the behaviours down into small chunks so the dog can understand readily what she wants. She does use e collars etc. She uses the minimum amount of force, and makes sure she trains in a way that minimim force or correction is all she needs. She reckons if you need a lot of force you are doing something very wrong. She is very big on foundation work.


 In ancient times I studied the Koehler books like my dog bible..reading it at least 3 or 4 times, and constantly going back and referring to sections. I don't recall the word "subtle" being used much in the writings. I do recall him emphatically stating something to the effect that an over-correction is far better than an under-correction.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> I don't. All you need to do is put a sharpened prong around your neck/waist/leg/whatever and give it a pop. It's a simple experiment, with a simple conclusion.
> .


From the Michael Ellis video, he does not "pop" the collar, he just applies pressure to it. A much different technique and the reason I like his training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> In ancient times I studied the Koehler books like my dog bible..reading it at least 3 or 4 times, and constantly going back and referring to sections. I don't recall the word "subtle" being used much in the writings. I do recall him emphatically stating something to the effect that an over-correction is far better than an under-correction.


.
For the most part I won't disagree with that. 
That still doesn't make it right.....or wrong. Just to many variables such as the dog's temperament and the trainer's skill level and temperament. 
Over correction, *for me*, means I've lost control of the situation.


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## Jim Leon (Jan 21, 2010)

Koehler method, from my experience, requires a handler that is physically capable, quick-footed and with good peripheral vision. Without these attributes, applying the corrective turns is very difficult, and the frustration will result over-correction.
Perhaps the disparaging remarks against it are true. Maybe it is antiquated. How many people these days are actually in a good physical condition? Capable of maneuvering around a forging dog and spin into a 180 turn ?
Koehler is from a time when the obesity rate in the US was far lower than it is today. Using Koehler to train a dog is a workout in itself, not much motivation for that out there, is there?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

So Koehler sucks for dog training but it's a good work out for the handler? ROTFLMAO
Stick with a modern training style and join a Gym


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jim Leon said:


> Koehler method, from my experience, requires a handler that is physically capable, quick-footed and with good peripheral vision. Without these attributes, applying the corrective turns is very difficult, and the frustration will result over-correction.
> Perhaps the disparaging remarks against it are true. Maybe it is antiquated. How many people these days are actually in a good physical condition? Capable of maneuvering around a forging dog and spin into a 180 turn ?
> Koehler is from a time when the obesity rate in the US was far lower than it is today. Using Koehler to train a dog is a workout in itself, not much motivation for that out there, is there?


Has anyone seen a truely Koehler method trained dog? Video?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> So Koehler sucks for dog training but it's a good work out for the handler? ROTFLMAO
> Stick with a modern training style and join a Gym


koehler sucks? news to me and LOTS of other people..

two ULTRA important things I got out of Koehler methods are poison proofing and fence/barrier jumping...have not found any better methods to date..personally.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Has anyone seen a truely Koehler method trained dog? Video?


yes..on film..any of the bigscreen movies and TV that his methods were used for

Bullet. The Shaggy Dog, Rin Tin Tin, Big Red, and the classic Old Yeller, The Shaggy dog..and others I am sure...


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> koehler sucks? news to me and LOTS of other people..
> 
> two ULTRA important things I got out of Koehler methods are poison proofing and fence/barrier jumping...have not found any better methods to date..personally.


I agree Joby. I do not have the experience of many of the people on this forum, but I have trained a protection dog using the Koehler method years ago and liked the results. I found that system easy to use and easy to learn. I have obedienced trained a lot of dogs using a lot of his methods and it doas work. I am sure people have come up with great new methods, but Keohler does work.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> yes..on film..any of the bigscreen movies and TV that his methods were used for
> 
> Bullet. The Shaggy Dog, Rin Tin Tin, Big Red, and the classic Old Yeller, The Shaggy dog..and others I am sure...


I must REALLY like the Shaggy Dog LOL..

Mike..I agree..Kinda liek the Joe Pesci in the Rodney Dangerfield movie "Easy Money" frm '83....it works!!!!!!!!!!


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Yep it does work. I don't think anyone is saying it does not work. It's just that methods have been developed that work better and result in a happier dog. We are also seeing the modern methods working better for the real hard serious dogs. Is there a time with these dogs that they have to learn who is boss with a few hard corrections? Most probably. However the overall picture is much better.

I think it boils down to what people are willing to accept and how open they are to suggestion. In my training environment the handlers are on a constant quest to improve and thus remain open to new ideas, methods and paradigms. It was really interesting for me to have Jogi and Speedy come to out club. Interestingly Lance Collins is probably respected more in Germany than he is in North America. One of the first things Speedy said was that they were a bit nervous coming to train with him because of his reputation. They also said that it was unusual for them to have an old timer be open to their methods willing to take direction and advice.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Has anyone seen a truely Koehler method trained dog? Video?


@ 2:16 you will get the truth .. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9mdaDcySG4


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Yep it does work. I don't think anyone is saying it does not work. It's just that methods have been developed that work better and result in a happier dog. We are also seeing the modern methods working better for the real hard serious dogs. Is there a time with these dogs that they have to learn who is boss with a few hard corrections? Most probably. However the overall picture is much better.
> 
> I think it boils down to what people are willing to accept and how open they are to suggestion. In my training environment the handlers are on a constant quest to improve and thus remain open to new ideas, methods and paradigms. It was really interesting for me to have Jogi and Speedy come to out club. Interestingly Lance Collins is probably respected more in Germany than he is in North America. One of the first things Speedy said was that they were a bit nervous coming to train with him because of his reputation. They also said that it was unusual for them to have an old timer be open to their methods willing to take direction and advice.



does lassie ( all of them), or Rin Tin Tin look unhappy to you? or Big Red?

IF some azzhole (like me) re-reads Koehlers book and claims to train that way, and the dog looks unhappy, is that the method? or how I did it?

same thing as ecollar work...if some azzhole uses one and doesnt know how to, it will look shytty. as with any type of +P or -R work...


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Wow! No offense to anyone here, I think you all have wonderful ideas in your particular areas but reading through all these posts I wonder if we've lost site of the subject?

We're talking about a young lady, (can't drive so I'm assuming under 16 or 17), with very limited funds whose training a Lab (I believe), in BASIC OB. 

I don't think she' prepping this dog for bite work or high level competition. It seems she's just looking for some simple techniques to get a well behaved dog and maybe start her journey into learning about dog behavior.

How about just some simple clicker training?

Here's some web sites. These have video's you can watch.

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/clicker-training/
http://www.clickertrainusa.com/clicker-training-videos.htm

This has some more technical articles you might be interested in.
http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/K9learning.html

I lost a bookmark to another site with some very good videos on it. When I find it again, I'll post it for you.

Craig


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> yes..on film..any of the bigscreen movies and TV that his methods were used for
> 
> Bullet. The Shaggy Dog, Rin Tin Tin, Big Red, and the classic Old Yeller, The Shaggy dog..and others I am sure...



You can add Swiss Family Robinson to that list.
Not taking away anything from the movie dog training but that's just a lot of good parlor trick and good editing.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

The real bottom line is that the dogs are the same, no matter how the music they dance to has changed over the years. 

Weak is weak, strong is an opinion. As are happy and sad.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> IF some azzhole (like me) re-reads Koehlers book and claims to train that way, and the dog looks unhappy, is that the method? or how I did it?
> 
> same thing as ecollar work...if some azzhole uses one and doesnt know how to, it will look shytty. as with any type of +P or -R work...


I would tend to think it was how you did it and whether you truly understand it, same as with any method. Over correction and under correction are also very subjective terms. 

Continuously having to use correction would indicate to me that the dog doesnt fully understand what is required and the method is being used incorrectly. A couple of strong corrections rather than nagging can be appropriate it certain situations. But strong corrections dont have to be brutal corrections.

I havent read Khoeler, nor do I train using compulsion but the couple of people I know that do profess to train using the Khoeler method and have happy, good dogs, claim that many people do it wrong.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> but the couple of people I know that do profess to train using the Khoeler method and have happy, good dogs, claim that many people do it wrong.


That's the thing with any method or combination of methods anybody starting out can do it wrong or right. The key really for the OP to 'combine' old and new dog training is to work with someone who can mentor them who understands what her dog needs. To me that is the biggest newbie mistake is band wagon jumping and not really understanding what the dog needs in the first place. You can follow a book or a video but nothing really helps as much as a second set of experienced eyes. Without that when problems arise in the training for a inexperienced handler problem solving becomes a shot in the dark, that is where the mistakes happen. I see it all the time in my own club luckily we have some more experienced people that step in and mentor people when the dog or training throws a curve ball they have support.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> The real bottom line is that the dogs are the same, no matter how the music they dance to has changed over the years.
> 
> Weak is weak, strong is an opinion. As are happy and sad.


Exactly.

I've used a sharpened pinch and I would again, if I felt it would be the best tool for a particular dog. Nothing at all wrong with a sharpened pinch if used correctly. I use ecollars, too.

As to a happy dog, if you use a sharpened pinch correctly, you can have the picture of a happy dog. Being heavy handed on a soft dog can result in what looks like an unhappy dog. Being overly heavy handed on a hard dog might get you bit, or might ruin the dog, or present the wrong picture. It's not the tool, it's the way it's wielded.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian please don't leave the forum.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I haven't "retired" from this forum yet and maybe never will but would like the opportunity to explain the use of the "sharpened" prong.

As someone mentioned on here, one* could imagine what a "yank with the fursaver could do" just imagine what a "yank" with the "sharpened prong*" could do. "blood, scars, etc.". And what does a "yank with the fursaver achieve?

This is the crux of the problem - one does not *yank* a sharpened prong. One treats it gently. In all the time I used one and most of my colleagues, we "tweaked" the prong on a short soft lead without loop in order to call to attention the dog, having attained 11-13 months, to forget his hormones when working obedience and look up at us and in this second and this second only, the prong was released and the verbal praise was said.

We also put the prong on the dog when we let him run free, to assure him it was nothing bad. We also put the prong on before we drove to the club, not that the dog associated "prong - training". However during my training I observed that some disregarded this and found that using the prong without getting the dog used to it resulted in a better performance. Not my idea.

I was also advised at a seminar by a very well known IPO competitor (Worlds) to place a chain in between the sharpened prong links to loosen it so that when the dog was in the car, he was not reminded every second that he was wearing a "sharpened prong"

The corrections done by the "sharpened prong" were quick, *painless* (no more than someone taking your blood at a surgery.)

It's the *hand *that the delivers the pain, not the tool that the hand is using. This refers to loop, soft collar, fur saver, prong (sharpened or blunt), teletakt, etc.

I hope that this will clarify a surely misconcepted opinion in the States that we in Europe are not evil and not trying to find a very quick training result. Quick for the dog to learn, obviously, but not a short training to success. 

I will add that no dog of mine ever lost blood to a sharpened prong - I always checked even if I resisted trying it out on hubby's neck!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent explanation! 
My reason for not using it is simply understand my "own" training temperament. One of the major reasons I turned heavily to reward based marking training almost exclusively. The great majority of my competition experience has been with terriers and more so, Koehler was what I grew up with. It DOES work but I could get very frustrated in the past and I'll just say that terriers show me they could take heavy "punishment". I look back I realize that many of these dogs could have easily responded easier with making training a game. I didn't! I got very good results with that training then. I've gone to the extreme with markers and reward based, no physical correction to find out how far I could take. I have no problem adding corrections today, if needed, but I've also seen how much less they are needed when I use both. The level of correction has also gone WAAAY down. 
I still have no plans of using a sharpened pinch. That doesn't mean it couldn't possible be a properly used tool. 
This is one of those posts that can lead in many wrong directions. If anyone wishes to comment please do but with though and common sense.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Gillian please don't leave the forum.


+1


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thank you both!!

If I ever cry wolf again - shoot me.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Excellent explanation!
> My reason for not using it is simply understand my "own" training temperament. One of the major reasons I turned heavily to reward based marking training almost exclusively. The great majority of my competition experience has been with terriers and more so, Koehler was what I grew up with. It DOES work but I could get very frustrated in the past and I'll just say that terriers show me they could take heavy "punishment". I look back I realize that many of these dogs could have easily responded easier with making training a game. I didn't! I got very good results with that training then. I've gone to the extreme with markers and reward based, no physical correction to find out how far I could take. I have no problem adding corrections today, if needed, but I've also seen how much less they are needed when I use both. The level of correction has also gone WAAAY down.
> I still have no plans of using a sharpened pinch. That doesn't mean it couldn't possible be a properly used tool.
> This is one of those posts that can lead in many wrong directions. If anyone wishes to comment please do but with though and common sense.


Bob, Its use in the protection phase was invaluable. Not only are hard dogs not so easy to contain but dogs with an extreme drive to nail the helper, come what may. They are not "hard" in relationship" to their handler, i.e. no growling whilst heeling or curling of lip. They just want to fight and they seem to ignore that they are supposed to be under the handler's control. I'm not talking about "drive crazy" dogs, I'm talking about dogs with one aim and that is to fight the helper. 

If anyone can tell me how to handle such a dog in protection without using correction but just positively, I would welcome it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thank you both!!
> 
> If I ever cry wolf again - shoot me.


Well, OK, but I will be sad to do it. (Think Old Yeller.)


:lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And back to:


Gillian Schuler said:


> Bob, Its use in the protection phase was invaluable. Not only are hard dogs not so easy to contain but dogs with an extreme drive to nail the helper, come what may. They are not "hard" in relationship" to their handler, i.e. no growling whilst heeling or curling of lip. They just want to fight and they seem to ignore that they are supposed to be under the handler's control. I'm not talking about "drive crazy" dogs, I'm talking about dogs with one aim and that is to fight the helper.
> 
> If anyone can tell me how to handle such a dog in protection without using correction but just positively, I would welcome it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Was the dog in Old Yeller trained by Koehler too? ;-)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've not had that type dog that hard to contain dog but I've seem them at the club I belonged to. With the bite as the actual reward it can be amazing how quickly they figure that out. Obviously a clearer headed dog will respond quicker. 
I wont go out on a limb and say it would be as easy with the type dog your discussing. I've seen to many pro positive ( I hate the connotations of that word) that will swear by absolutely no correction with ANY dog. I do believe it can go a long way to reduce corrections though. 
I also believe that"hard to contain dog" can sometimes be attributed to the handler but I don't believe that's the case in your situation.
I've had some fantastic earth dogs that spent their waking lives in the quest to destroy critters. I could also call these same dogs off of deer, rabbits or any thing else when they were at a dead run. Maybe not the same as a dog on people but I've not seen much of anything that can match the drives of a working terrier once it has.........success with critters, large or small.
Gotta head out now and pick up the gkids from school now. One Friday a month early out for teacher's meeting and Pop be da man! :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, OK, but I will be sad to do it. (Think Old Yeller.)
> 
> 
> :lol:


 
Ach! Connie, your humour could surpass that of the British and that is legendary.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Was the dog in Old Yeller trained by Koehler too? ;-)




Yes!
I've watched that movie many, many time since childhood hoping the end will change somehow. :-( #-o 8-[ 
I even have it on VHS tape and watch it at least once a year.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Any one seen the movie "A Dogs Life" was one of my favourite doggie movies was about a Bull Terrier that fought in the pits then got a new life and went on to a happy ending  Im pretty sure Bill Koehler trained all the dogs in that movie too im not sure if it was disney or not it may have been.


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## Jim Leon (Jan 21, 2010)

The dog playing Old Yeller was trained by Rudd Weatherwax.
My favorite scene is when Old Yeller charges and fights off a black bear to save the boy. 
It's speculated that Old Yeller was a Ladner Black Mouth Yellow Cur, from Texas.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Rudd Weatherwax also trained all the Collies that played Lassie in the TV shows and Movies.
Re: Koehler

The training is like the cars of the 60's. A 62 Chevy might get from NYC to LA BUT I'd rather have a 2013 Chevy with air conditioning and Cruise Control and full power and anti lock disc brakes etc, etc.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

If we're talking old school there's always Chuck Eisenmann and London, the Littlest Hobo. 

I read his book Stop, Sit and Think years ago... not sure it influenced how I train, but might be worth a reread.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Rudd Weatherwax also trained all the Collies that played Lassie in the TV shows and Movies.
> Re: Koehler
> 
> The training is like the cars of the 60's. A 62 Chevy might get from NYC to LA BUT I'd rather have a 2013 Chevy with air conditioning and Cruise Control and full power and anti lock disc brakes etc, etc.



I stand corrected! In looking it up on the web it comments that Koehler trained for all the Disney movies but one. It didn't mention Old Yeller by name but "just one" I'm assuming Yeller is that "one"

Brad, yes I've seen it but it's been 25 -30 yrs ago. Black and white movie if I recall. I believe I rented it when home video first became popular. 

In the *book* Old Yeller was thought to be a Black Mouth Cur. In reality no one knows because he was a shelter dog. 
I had a mutt that could have passed for his double except for Yellar's lop ear. I also had the litter mate of this dog and she looked like a smooth Collie.....and the mom looked like hound. Go figure!:-k


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I stand corrected! In looking it up on the web it comments that Koehler trained for all the Disney movies but one. It didn't mention Old Yeller by name but "just one" I'm assuming Yeller is that "one"
> 
> Brad, yes I've seen it but it's been 25 -30 yrs ago. Black and white movie if I recall. I believe I rented it when home video first became popular.
> 
> ...


 Thats it Bob i first saw it 25 yrs ago was hooked on terriers back then and yep black and white but i think it got remastered in colour.

I take it Weatherwax was not as much as a pioneer as koehler.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I haven't "retired" from this forum yet and maybe never will but would like the opportunity to explain the use of the "sharpened" prong.
> 
> As someone mentioned on here, one* could imagine what a "yank with the fursaver could do" just imagine what a "yank" with the "sharpened prong*" could do. "blood, scars, etc.". And what does a "yank with the fursaver achieve?
> 
> ...


Using more severe equipment just means that you use a lighter hand, just as using a more severe bit on a horse will 'soften' them up. If people try it rather than automatically assume it is more painful they would find out that you just use less force, with the result that the dog will respect even a flat collar more. It won't make a hard snap with a regular prong necessary, but rather it is the opposite. There are bits used on horses that will literally cause them to end up on their backs if you give it a pull like you do on a snaffle bit. They will actually soften a horse up to where a light touch with even a snaffle bit will stop them, because they have gained a respect for it. Same principle. Same difference between a prong and a flat collar.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> Using more severe equipment just means that you use a lighter hand, just as using a more severe bit on a horse will 'soften' them up. If people try it rather than automatically assume it is more painful they would find out that you just use less force, with the result that the dog will respect even a flat collar more. It won't make a hard snap with a regular prong necessary, but rather it is the opposite. There are bits used on horses that will literally cause them to end up on their backs if you give it a pull like you do on a snaffle bit. They will actually soften a horse up to where a light touch with even a snaffle bit will stop them, because they have gained a respect for it. Same principle. Same difference between a prong and a flat collar.


You have to wonder in many cases how it got to the point where you have to use severe equipment. I realise that for some dogs they maybe a good option, but most dogs should be able to be trained in a flat collar if you have had them since pups? 

I guess the trick as you say to using the severe gear correctly is to be sensitive to the concept of force right from the outset. Then I can see that in the right hands they could be okay as Gillian has described and I think how the lady I have had conversations with about Khoeler trains.

People often use stuff like that as a last resort and yank or shock away which leads to them be called into question. In fact over here I think in some states the prong is banned. I have never seen one myself and dont know anyone who uses them.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Sara,

In Australia, Europe or the USA. Banning of e-collars or prong collars is usually political or emotional and done by people who have no first hand knowledge of their proper usage :-(


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Sara,
> 
> In Australia, Europe or the USA. Banning of e-collars or prong collars is usually political or emotional and done by people who have no first hand knowledge of their proper usage :-(


Thanks, Thomas for explaining that! I am not a dog trainer per se, but have spent a lifetime among animals, and there isn't that much difference between training a horse, a border collie, or a malinois. I can go on any dog or horse training venue and hear the same cries of never using a prong or ecollar, never needing to use anything but a snaffle bit on a horse. You don't need to use any of these aids for sure, if you never expect any higher level of performance from your animal. 

Most of the banning is emotional, even the banning of slaughtering horses, which at first glance seems good to a lover of fine animals, but in reality it leads to lower prices, and ultimately to even registered horses not being worth the ever-increasing cost of feed and they have been turned loose on public land to fend for themselves and eventually starve to death. With animals, it is normally better to think rather than use emotion, actually it works a hell of a lot better with people as well!


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Sara Waters said:


> You have to wonder in many cases how it got to the point where you have to use severe equipment. I realise that for some dogs they maybe a good option, but most dogs should be able to be trained in a flat collar if you have had them since pups?
> 
> I guess the trick as you say to using the severe gear correctly is to be sensitive to the concept of force right from the outset. Then I can see that in the right hands they could be okay as Gillian has described and I think how the lady I have had conversations with about Khoeler trains.
> 
> People often use stuff like that as a last resort and yank or shock away which leads to them be called into question. In fact over here I think in some states the prong is banned. I have never seen one myself and dont know anyone who uses them.


The concept, whether a dog or a horse isn't to use them as a last resort, but to use them with a light hand to teach an animal to respect a light hand, so that they never have to jerk, or snap them to get the desired response. The first time that the dog (or horse) doesn't acknowledge your hand, it is time to get their attention with more something more severe, so they don't get the idea that they can just do whatever the heck they want. If they know what you want them to do and they don't do it, it's time for a correction in my world, not a treat! If the animal doesn't understand what is desired that is another thing entirely, and requires a different approach. 

I had a good example tonight. My mali is typical for the breed, and pushes everything to the edge, I was eating, and she threw her paws on the table, still had her ecollar on, I asked once, the second time she got one light buzz. She didn't do it again, she knew the proper response, just didn't feel like obeying at the moment. She was that way with heeling, worked perfect till she went off leash, then did whatever the hell she wanted, till I put an ecollar on her, it was amazing she would heel off leash nicely in 5 minutes. She knew what was being asked, but was just testing me to see if the command was a requirement or just a recommendation.

I have never read the Koehler book by the way, but I have a pretty good idea what it is about, and also bet that a good portion of it works. Just because it is old school doesn't mean you toss it completely, some of it will work.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> You don't need to use any of these aids for sure, if you never expect any higher level of performance from your animal.


Well I completely disagree with that statement. We have some world class agility and obedience dogs that have never seen a prong collar. I have heard people make that statement before and it leaves me totally puzzled. When it comes to training an animal to a top level it most certainly doesnt just depend on the equipment. Where I live we dont have any of that equipment available and our top handlers and their dogs are awesome. The depth of their knowledge of training, techniques, reading and handling dogs is key I believe to their success.

Thomas - yes it is emotional but generally fuelled by to many people using this equipment the wrong way I suspect.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> The concept, whether a dog or a horse isn't to use them as a last resort, but to use them with a light hand to teach an animal to respect a light hand, so that they never have to jerk, or snap them to get the desired response. The first time that the dog (or horse) doesn't acknowledge your hand, it is time to get their attention with more something more severe, so they don't get the idea that they can just do whatever the heck they want. If they know what you want them to do and they don't do it, it's time for a correction in my world, not a treat! If the animal doesn't understand what is desired that is another thing entirely, and requires a different approach.
> 
> I had a good example tonight. My mali is typical for the breed, and pushes everything to the edge, I was eating, and she threw her paws on the table, still had her ecollar on, I asked once, the second time she got one light buzz. She didn't do it again, she knew the proper response, just didn't feel like obeying at the moment. She was that way with heeling, worked perfect till she went off leash, then did whatever the hell she wanted, till I put an ecollar on her, it was amazing she would heel off leash nicely in 5 minutes. She knew what was being asked, but was just testing me to see if the command was a requirement or just a recommendation.
> 
> I have never read the Koehler book by the way, but I have a pretty good idea what it is about, and also bet that a good portion of it works. Just because it is old school doesn't mean you toss it completely, some of it will work.


Yes I understand that and why that approach would work and I am not anti training that way.

However the way you describe the use of a treat is totally incorrect. You dont just give a dog a treat. You teach the dog to work for something it values and you transfer that value to the point where the work becomes enjoyable and the reward. I have a very stubborn cattle dog and she is a brilliant heeling dog. I trained her using treats and she works her butt off for me. She knows she puts on her A game when she heels or she will go unrewarded. She doesnt bother testing me because she knows the answer. I actually trained her to heel off leash in the first place, she will heel anywhere now with or without a treat. 

There are a few situations I have used correction with my dogs but rarely in training for dog sport.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes I understand that and why that approach would work and I am not anti training that way.
> 
> However the way you describe the use of a treat is totally incorrect. You dont just give a dog a treat. You teach the dog to work for something it values and you transfer that value to the point where the work becomes enjoyable and the reward. I have a very stubborn cattle dog and she is a brilliant heeling dog. I trained her using treats and she works her butt off for me. She knows she puts on her A game when she heels or she will go unrewarded. She doesnt bother testing me because she knows the answer. I actually trained her to heel off leash in the first place.


Sometimes you have an epiphany that all animals don't respond to the same methods. I believe you understand that! I am in the country and honestly, mine would rather chase rabbits than any positive thing I can give her and sometimes she honestly enjoys seeing how far she can push me. They obviously have different personalities. You can't use the same training methods for all of them, that is why some trainers, whether training horses or dogs, prefer dogs of different bloodlines. The ones they prefer respond well to their method of training. I am convinced if you train enough animals, you will never use the exact same program on any of them and I would bet a good amount that the very best ones are better at reading the animal early on and knowing what type of training they will respond to and that is the secret to their success. I have messed with border collies quite a bit and they aren't much different to train than a mali. A cattle dog may be a little softer type dog, and respond better to positives, not that familiar with them.

My dog is a biting fool, and will work for a bite, but I can only take so much of that.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Sara Waters said:


> Well I completely disagree with that statement. We have some world class agility and obedience dogs that have never seen a prong collar. I have heard people make that statement before and it leaves me totally puzzled. When it comes to training an animal to a top level it most certainly doesnt just depend on the equipment. Where I live we dont have any of that equipment available and our top handlers and their dogs are awesome. The depth of their knowledge of training, techniques, reading and handling dogs is key I believe to their success.
> 
> Thomas - yes it is emotional but generally fuelled by to many people using this equipment the wrong way I suspect.


Realize that I know absolutely nothing about training an agility dog, and different breeds have different characteristics. I spent a good portion of my life riding high performance cutting horses, not training dogs. The concept of using more severe equipment to negate the reason to ever pull hard is absolutely the norm for me.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> Sometimes you have an epiphany that all animals don't respond to the same methods. I believe you understand that! I am in the country and honestly, mine would rather chase rabbits than any positive thing I can give her and sometimes she honestly enjoys seeing how far she can push me. They obviously have different personalities. You can't use the same training methods for all of them, that is why some trainers, whether training horses or dogs, prefer dogs of different bloodlines. The ones they prefer respond well to their method of training. I am convinced if you train enough animals, you will never use the exact same program on any of them and I would bet a good amount that the very best ones are better at reading the animal early on and knowing what type of training they will respond to and that is the secret to their success. I have messed with border collies quite a bit and they aren't much different to train than a mali. A cattle dog may be a little softer type dog, and respond better to positives, not that familiar with them.
> 
> My dog is a biting fool, and will work for a bite, but I can only take so much of that.


LOL Cattle dogs are hard arsed littled monkeys born to control feral station cattle. They are stubborn, wilfull, mouthy and lateral thinkers to the extreme, which is why so many are dumped. I have Border collies and kelpies as well and the cattle dog is my favourite because they like to test your boundaries and they will work their butts off for you if you do it right.

I also,live on a farm and my cattle dog would try and bring down roos, and because that is a very dangerous past time, it is the only time I have ever used a hard correction on her. My other dogs didnt need that, they came when called. But training for obedience and agility I have never needed a correction.

I have used mild correction on my Border collie with the long line when working sheep as sometimes he likes to do things his way. My kelpie has never needed a physical correction when working sheep. 

So yes it depends on many factors and our job as trainers is to figure out how to bring the best out in each individual dog and there are probably several ways to do it. Same with horses of which I have had a few in my time. Although not cutting horses, mine were showjumpers.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Sara Waters said:


> LOL Cattle dogs are hard arsed littled monkeys born to control feral station cattle. They are stubborn, wilfull, mouthy and lateral thinkers to the extreme, which is why so many are dumped. I have Border collies and kelpies as well and the cattle dog is my favourite because they like to test your boundaries and they will work their butts off for you if you do it right.
> 
> I also,live on a farm and my cattle dog would try and bring down roos, and because that is a very dangerous past time, it is the only time I have ever used a hard correction on her. My other dogs didnt need that, they came when called. But training for obedience and agility I have never needed a correction.
> 
> ...


Yep, the animals are a lot like handling kids, you can't handle them all the same way, lol!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> The concept, whether a dog or a horse isn't to use them as a last resort, but to use them with a light hand to teach an animal to respect a light hand, so that they never have to jerk, or snap them to get the desired response. The first time that the dog (or horse) doesn't acknowledge your hand, it is time to get their attention with more something more severe, so they don't get the idea that they can just do whatever the heck they want. If they know what you want them to do and they don't do it, it's time for a correction in my world, not a treat! If the animal doesn't understand what is desired that is another thing entirely, and requires a different approach.
> 
> I had a good example tonight. My mali is typical for the breed, and pushes everything to the edge, I was eating, and she threw her paws on the table, still had her ecollar on, I asked once, the second time she got one light buzz. She didn't do it again, she knew the proper response, just didn't feel like obeying at the moment. She was that way with heeling, worked perfect till she went off leash, then did whatever the hell she wanted, till I put an ecollar on her, it was amazing she would heel off leash nicely in 5 minutes. She knew what was being asked, but was just testing me to see if the command was a requirement or just a recommendation.
> 
> I have never read the Koehler book by the way, but I have a pretty good idea what it is about, and also bet that a good portion of it works. Just because it is old school doesn't mean you toss it completely, some of it will work.


Thank you very much for this post. It is exactly how we work in many clubs over here in Europe. Maybe a good description of the training method would be "nipping it in the bud", thereby saving dog and handler a lot of stress.

I also have never read Köhler but guess his methods are bona fide.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thank you very much for this post. It is exactly how we work in many clubs over here in Europe. Maybe a good description of the training method would be "nipping it in the bud", thereby saving dog and handler a lot of stress.
> 
> I also have never read Köhler but guess his methods are bona fide.


I understand the "nipping it in the bud method" of training and can see it would work well, but I would also suggest that not training that way doesnt automatically cause the handler and dog a lot of stress.

I was thinking of teaching my dogs to heel and I definitely dont train with e collars or other collars, I tend to teach heeling without a collar. However I have put in ground work with building value for toys and treats which is genrally not a problem because they are all highly motivated for toys and treats and teaching them how to work for these items is easy enough and they love it. 

Once this is done I find things progress quickly and they love coming training with me. They are so eager to get things right, so I find they self nip in the bud very quickly when they dont get the deisired result I am looking for.

Doesnt mean I dont use the occasional correction if I see the need to nip things in the bud so to speak, not in obedience or agility but occassionally in herding and in daily life. My dogs seem to know when not to mess with me with very little physical correction on my part.

I have never trained in the protection venues as they dont exsist here so could be very different. 

Certainly some of the top European agility trainers that I have read articles from seem to train primarily with the value sytem of toys, treats etc. and most of out top obedience competitors in this country train that way.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I see both sides of this but i too shape like sara describes and find corrections few and far apart and one of my current dogs is 12mths hasnt had many if any physical corrections in training but i actually find myself correcting or give my dog a bitch slap for house manners etc more then anything else thats where im harder on them


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I understand the "nipping it in the bud method" of training and can see it would work well, but I would also suggest that not training that way doesnt automatically cause the handler and dog a lot of stress.
> 
> I was thinking of teaching my dogs to heel and I definitely dont train with e collars or other collars, I tend to teach heeling without a collar. However I have put in ground work with building value for toys and treats which is genrally not a problem because they are all highly motivated for toys and treats and teaching them how to work for these items is easy enough and they love it.
> 
> ...


Most people have trouble with their dogs training with mainly positive reinforcement (food or toy) or negative punishment (witholding the reward) when the dog finds something it likes better. 

IE in bitework a dog may enjoy fighting with the decoy more than biting the reward you offer. The solution to that is to start further back, keep the dog on leash to with hold the decoy from them until they learn to take the only thing they can get which is the reward with you.

If you could find something that your dogs value more than playing with you, you could compare that to a dog enjoying a decoy. For example let someone else reward your dog 15 times in a row. tug and play. then in the same area try to do obedience around that person, while they make similar gestures while hold the tug. IE trying to bait your dog to play with them. This would approximate what a dog has to do to have control in bitework.

Of course, if you were posed with this unlikely situation, you would train for it before you would do it. Using distance and a passive person first, successively approximate, etc..


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Most people have trouble with their dogs training with mainly positive reinforcement (food or toy) or negative punishment (witholding the reward) when the dog finds something it likes better.
> 
> IE in bitework a dog may enjoy fighting with the decoy more than biting the reward you offer. The solution to that is to start further back, keep the dog on leash to with hold the decoy from them until they learn to take the only thing they can get which is the reward with you.
> 
> ...


 
From my observations of our best agility/obedience dogs and their handlers, the way they are bought up as puppies completely reinforces that their handler and the game is the best thing ever in every environment. 

I think you would probably be battling to find something they like more. Their extreme focus and speed on the courses despite 4 or 5 other rings with dogs running full speed and often barking and the general chaos of an agility trial would seem to suggest this. It is actually amazing how few dogs interfere with other dogs in the adjacent rings despite the chaotic temptations.

Certainly it is how we train over here and the majority of people I trial with use it very successfully.

However I know what you mean, when I first moved to the farm one of my dogs was very partial to chasing roos - found them way more interesting than me untill I used physical correction twice for doing it. Her recall was pretty strong already and the problem was quickly overcome.

I know zip about training protection dogs so could be a whole different ball game. 

Certainly I dont use toys and treats when training my dog on sheep and tend to use a quick physical correction with a long line if I need to, but I have to be really careful here that I am reading the sheep as well so I dont correct for an innapropriate reading on my part. Nagging is the worst thing you can do when training a sheep dog, it only causes problems further down the track as per Jim and Gillians posts. Here you are working with instinct and the sheep are the reward that the dog wants more than anything. I guess like the dog and the decoy. My sheepdogs have no interest in toys or food when working sheep despite it being a strong motivation for their agility.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> From my observations of our best agility/obedience dogs and their handlers, the way they are bought up as puppies completely reinforces that their handler and the game is the best thing ever in every environment.
> 
> I think you would probably be battling to find something they like more. Their extreme focus and speed on the courses despite 4 or 5 other rings with dogs running full speed and often barking and the general chaos of an agility trial would seem to suggest this. It is actually amazing how few dogs interfere with other dogs in the adjacent rings despite the chaotic temptations.
> 
> ...


Competing motivations. that is what it's all about. It's a slightly different ballgame when you have your dog biting someone else and your dog likes to bite. It's hard as a handler to get the dog to want to come to you more, so .... I have had more success teaching the dog like it was mentioned in another thread, to do something to get his reward back (decoy), vs. don't bite the decoy. 

The not interfering with the dogs in the other rings doesn't surprise me. they never get rewarded for it so why would they. Just another distractor you proof them off of in training.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Competing motivations. that is what it's all about. It's a slightly different ballgame when you have your dog biting someone else and your dog likes to bite. It's hard as a handler to get the dog to want to come to you more, so .... I have had more success teaching the dog like it was mentioned in another thread, to do something to get his reward back (decoy), vs. don't bite the decoy.
> 
> The not interfering with the dogs in the other rings doesn't surprise me. they never get rewarded for it so why would they. Just another distractor you proof them off of in training.


 
So you dont use corrections in this situation, you use a reward based strategy, the decoy being the reward. 

The dogs running in other rings can be very tempting to young dogs but again heavily rewarding rather than correcting can work well.

I actually have one of these types of dogs that is very motivated by other fast moving dogs. My problem is that it is difficult to proof because of where I live, the fact I train on my own, and the limited number of trials I do in a year. I found a combination of correction and reward worked in the limited opportunities that I had to try and proof him quickly. Correct him for even thinking about it and reward him for focusing on me if that makes sense. Kind of a double whammy, probably not ideal but it seemed to work.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> You have to wonder in many cases how it got to the point where you have to use severe equipment. I realise that for some dogs they maybe a good option, but most dogs should be able to be trained in a flat collar if you have had them since pups?
> 
> I guess the trick as you say to using the severe gear correctly is to be sensitive to the concept of force right from the outset. Then I can see that in the right hands they could be okay as Gillian has described and I think how the lady I have had conversations with about Khoeler trains.
> 
> People often use stuff like that as a last resort and yank or shock away which leads to them be called into question. In fact over here I think in some states the prong is banned. I have never seen one myself and dont know anyone who uses them.


equipment is not severe. the methods used by some with certain types of equipment is severe...

I know people that use pinch and ecollars starting on pups as young as 3-4 months of age. not as last resorts or severe methods.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> So you dont use corrections in this situation, you use a reward based strategy, the decoy being the reward.
> 
> The dogs running in other rings can be very tempting to young dogs but again heavily rewarding rather than correcting can work well.
> 
> I actually have one of these types of dogs that is very motivated by other fast moving dogs. My problem is that it is difficult to proof because of where I live, the fact I train on my own, and the limited number of trials I do in a year. I found a combination of correction and reward worked in the limited opportunities that I had to try and proof him quickly. Correct him for even thinking about it and reward him for focusing on me if that makes sense. Kind of a double whammy, probably not ideal but it seemed to work.


It's not that cut and dried. If the dog is condtioned to not let go, then yes, i'd use physical manipulation to get the dog to let go. Then there would be an immediate rebite to teach the dog what is required to get his reward back. then slowly it would be put on a variable reward schedule always backing up the reward being set up for a correction. the combination of the two will clear up a lot of things. Depending on the dog it would be a choke or pinch collar. Either a pop on a pinch, or trying to incite the gag reflex using the choke chain if the dog pain stimulates and wants to bite/fight the out more.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think there is a great difference in training obedience or agility opposed to protection without trying to minimise the effort put into the former.

I had a dog for whom the obedience work in IPO was as exciting nearly as the protection work.

I have had dogs for whom obedience work was a necessary evil and protection work was the A + O of IPO although one of these decided at 2 years old, that it might be worth putting in some effort at obedience.

The difference between obedience and protection work is that you are constantly working with a "third party" offering so much more than you can when working the dog just in obedience.

I think there has been a great change over the years in the dogs that have been bred and are being bred.

When I started IPO in the late 90's, there were dogs who won on protection points and were difficult to train to a perfect obedience. Now there are dogs who win on obedience points. I wonder if the dog being bred today in most cases is bred to succeed in obedience, i.e. with less toughness in the protection work. Although when I watch the videos of FCI and WUSV, I see some good dogs, just not all with the hardness of the dogs in the 90's in protection.

Well, we can't roll the clock back but some of the bouncing, high screaming pseudo detainers do leave me to wonder.

At the moment I'm just an onlooker. Heaven knows what I would do now with a toughie from the 90's :roll:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"IE in bitework a dog may enjoy fighting with the decoy more than biting the reward you offer".

Dave, with the club I belonged to the bite WAS the reward. Even a serious hard ass dog can figure that out if it's in any way clear in the head. 
From the bite then the out was rewarded with .......another bite. 
Obviously these were all built up to with similar to what your saying but I've seen it work with some pretty serious dogs with both control and out issues.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob, 

I agree I train the same way but it's not only a bite it's the fight that goes with it. Ivan and Michael Ellis have been training this for years. The 1st sleeve or tug goes dead and ALL the excitement is with the new tug/sleeve. Strong dogs figure it out. A psycho dog may not, but it works better then trying to over power with prong or e-collar


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## Cameron banks (Jan 5, 2022)

Dave Colborn said:


> Has anyone seen a truely Koehler method trained dog? Video?


Here's a GSD at week 7/10 going through the KMOdT


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