# the best way to train protection to a dog that does NOT have prey drive!



## hatem zalloum

Hell all, 
was wondering what would be the best way to work protection on a non drivy dog? 

all the new school trainers base their work on prey drive and then move on from there! 

what if the dog does NOT posses a good prey drive? how do you go about it?

thanking you all in advance,


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## Dave Colborn

How's the defense?





hatem zalloum said:


> Hell all,
> was wondering what would be the best way to work protection on a non drivy dog?
> 
> all the new school trainers base their work on prey drive and then move on from there!
> 
> what if the dog does NOT posses a good prey drive? how do you go about it?
> 
> thanking you all in advance,


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## Hunter Allred

Dave Colborn said:


> How's the defense?


+1


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## Matt Vandart

I shall watch this with interest


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## Joby Becker

yeah hows the defense? courage and nerves or whatever lol


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## Kevin Cyr

hatem zalloum said:


> Hell all,
> was wondering what would be the best way to work protection on a non drivy dog?
> 
> all the new school trainers base their work on prey drive and then move on from there!
> 
> what if the dog does NOT posses a good prey drive? how do you go about it?
> 
> thanking you all in advance,


 
How old is this dog first? What is/was the enviorment and training if any since it was a pup?
How many owners? Intentions when you got the dog?

BTW, alot of old school trainers work in prey as well....foundation and correct work is key


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## hatem zalloum

zeus is 13 months months old. he is trained basic obedience " heel, sit, down, stay, sit in motion, down in motion etc"
he is very social and very confidant.

Did not test the defense drive professionally, but he doesn't back out when challenged, he will charge at the gate a and bark, if that means anything!

how do i go from here?


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## Dave Colborn

Do you have a trainer close? Cant do this well over the internet.

What kind of a dog is zeus? Rott?

Test him professionally, period. See what someone who does this for a living can get out of him.

When i say period, i mean dont mention prey or defense. Just get him tested.

]


hatem zalloum said:


> zeus is 13 months months old. he is trained basic obedience " heel, sit, down, stay, sit in motion, down in motion etc"
> he is very social and very confidant.
> 
> Did not test the defense drive professionally, but he doesn't back out when challenged, he will charge at the gate a and bark, if that means anything!
> 
> how do i go from here?


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## hatem zalloum

he is a male pit bull,
the trainers here are more sport oriented, then they cross over the dog to defense.
2 of them told me i would be better of if i keep my dog as a pet and get a more drivy dog for the protection work!


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## Nicole Stark

Where are you located? There's a chance that there are some WDF members in your area that are willing/able to take a look at (test/work) the dog and give you some input/advice after seeing him in person. Just a thought.


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## Brian McQuain

A pit with no prey drive?


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## hatem zalloum

yes  not enough to get him into protection work according to 2 trainers!


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## Dave Colborn

hatem zalloum said:


> yes  not enough to get him into protection work according to 2 trainers!


Where are you located?


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## Stefan Schaub

hatem zalloum said:


> yes  not enough to get him into protection work according to 2 trainers!


Why waste your time, if the dog does not have the minimum what you need to do the job. 

why not be fair to your dog and let him be what he is? why try to mistreat him only to get some defense out? 

Maybe you should ask your self that first, what do i gain and is it necessary?


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## Matthew Grubb

Stefan Schaub said:


> Why waste your time, if the dog does not have the minimum what you need to do the job.
> 
> why not be fair to your dog and let him be what he is? why try to mistreat him only to get some defense out?
> 
> Maybe you should ask your self that first, what do i gain and is it necessary?


I agree with this 110% All dogs are not cut out for protection sports.... BUT there are a ton of other fun things you guys can do together on the training side of things together that will strengthen your bond and provide years of great times!


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## Dave Colborn

Stefan. All trainers are not created equal. Nor are dogs. I have seen a few dogs get stimulated with a threat that then came up nicely in prey. Not whipping or hurting or tying out short on a slick table. Simply stalking or eyeballing. Get a bite, turn it to prey.

Or, you might work it once and have it bite full and firm. Or, you might be right and tell him to move on. 

Never a waste of time if you already own the dog. No harm done if its a good trainer.




Stefan Schaub said:


> Why waste your time, if the dog does not have the minimum what you need to do the job.
> 
> why not be fair to your dog and let him be what he is? why try to mistreat him only to get some defense out?
> 
> Maybe you should ask your self that first, what do i gain and is it necessary?


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## Travis Ragin

hatem zalloum said:


> zeus is 13 months months old. he is trained basic obedience " heel, sit, down, stay, sit in motion, down in motion etc"
> *he is very social and very confident.*


Great work and great to hear. Exactly my first questions along with Dave Colborns first inquiry.
Those are _must know before proceeding_ questions to anyone here attempting to offer advice on your pit bull.






hatem zalloum said:


> he will charge at the gate a and bark, if that means anything!
> how do i go from here?


If you want him to perform this as a lifetime duty?

Stand in the yard with him and praise the heck out him the second he does it. Sit in your window for a while and praise the heck out of him each time he does it. ( late nights-you could simulate this with friend who'll act suspicious).
Someone you don't want him charging? ignore it, or *literally* laugh at it him for 'guessing wrong'.
HAVE FUN.....Make him figure out what you want, mark the behavior.

If you're on the porch,dog is out and a relative comes walking up? Cheerfully tell the dog 'good job' for alerting you....then tell him 'it's OK' you are in control of the situation now.....then let your guests enter the territory. Dog is already social AND confident, easy peazy.


t


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## John Wolf

Stefan Schaub said:


> Why waste your time, if the dog does not have the minimum what you need to do the job.
> 
> why not be fair to your dog and let him be what he is? why try to mistreat him only to get some defense out?
> 
> Maybe you should ask your self that first, what do i gain and is it necessary?


This. A circle is never going to die a square.


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## John Ly

Stefan Schaub said:


> Why waste your time, if the dog does not have the minimum what you need to do the job.
> 
> why not be fair to your dog and let him be what he is? why try to mistreat him only to get some defense out?
> 
> Maybe you should ask your self that first, what do i gain and is it necessary?


agreed. all defense all the time is not good.


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## Joby Becker

hatem zalloum said:


> he is a male pit bull,
> the trainers here are more sport oriented, then they cross over the dog to defense.
> 2 of them told me i would be better of if i keep my dog as a pet and get a more drivy dog for the protection work!


What is your intended purpose for training the dog in "protection work"


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## rick smith

re : "but he doesn't back out when challenged, he will charge at the gate a and bark, if that means anything!"
- that's one of the most common descriptions i get from pet owners who tell me their dog is "protective" 

sure, it means "something", but it doesn't necessarily mean he is capable of being a "protection" dog unless all you need is a barking dog. they are a dime a dozen  

it would help to know exactly what type of testing was done by the trainers who said he wasn't cut out for protection work. 
- 5 min ?
- hour session ?
- how was the dog agitated ?
- how experienced were the evaluators and how well do you know their background ?

- if the two evaluations were accurate, maybe you should believe them

- i could be wrong (and often am), but i doubt you will get a workable training plan here without video under a few different situations
- provide that and you will probably get very accurate opinions and suggestions very quickly


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## Stefan Schaub

Dave Colborn said:


> Stefan. All trainers are not created equal. Nor are dogs. I have seen a few dogs get stimulated with a threat that then came up nicely in prey. Not whipping or hurting or tying out short on a slick table. Simply stalking or eyeballing. Get a bite, turn it to prey.
> 
> Or, you might work it once and have it bite full and firm. Or, you might be right and tell him to move on.
> 
> Never a waste of time if you already own the dog. No harm done if its a good trainer.


Ok now we talk about the good trainers.a good trainer would tell you have fun with your dog in what ever sport and buy a new one for protection.

or do you mean the good trainers who tell you we get it done and than spend a tonnnnnnnnn of money on him that he can try all shit on the poor guy.

there are many nice sports and if he need protection buy a gun,what do you need more,your dog barks at the fence,he gives you the minute advance to get your gun in your hand


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## Marcel Winter

1 Buy an other dog

2 or maybe you can find a helper who can work in real defense no only prey games


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## Dave Colborn

I mean good trainer. One that gets results. 

we dont know that the two trainers that looked at his dog. They may be terrible. Thats why i asked where he was. Also, they may be spot on. He is asking for a second opinion.

Protection dogs are but a layer of security. If they provide a layer, they are useful. 



Stefan Schaub said:


> Ok now we talk about the good trainers.a good trainer would tell you have fun with your dog in what ever sport and buy a new one for protection.
> 
> or do you mean the good trainers who tell you we get it done and than spend a tonnnnnnnnn of money on him that he can try all shit on the poor guy.
> 
> there are many nice sports and if he need protection buy a gun,what do you need more,your dog barks at the fence,he gives you the minute advance to get your gun in your hand


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## Chris McDonald

post a few videos


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## Matt Vandart

If he is a proper pittbull I don't believe for one second he has no prey drive, If he is a pittbull and not one of these pretend cross, looks like a pittbull thingmies, I suspect the 'trainers' are buttheads.


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## Peter Cho

Not all dogs have it. Get a new dog.


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## Joby Becker

I have worked with LOTS of Bullbreeds in Protection.

First of all if the dog is good it does have some level of prey. 
This may not show in the fact that he wants to play prey games with a stranger, but it will be there, it might need to be "worked out" to get the dog to interact with stranger in prey, This is not necessary to get a Protection dog persay, but is very helpful if long term training is a goal.

Some dogs will not display many prey behaviors in training with strangers, this could be due to social aspects or confidence issues or other things.

One does not have to mistreat or abuse or lay a hand, whip or stick on a "low prey" dog to get him working, unless his trust, sociability and confidence and nerves are top notch to the fact that he feels absolutely no threat without being physically stimulated through pain. These dogs are certainly out there, but are exceedingly rare these days.

If his confidence is high enough he can be trained.

This dog is obviously not going to be the ideal choice for sport type training for a person looking to have serious success, or be highly competitive, unless trained and handled by very experienced people.

If the OP ever comes back, and lets us know the intended use of the dog, and his age. We can discuss training possibilities.

Without that information, and answers to other questions, no one can say much about whether the dog can or should be trained for anything.

Anyone can say dont train a dog for protection, buy a gun...I would agree with that, but also I always seem to train my dogs for protection and get rid of dogs quickly that are not cut out for it, or that have confidence or courage issues... I guess I train for protection because I like to, and I like dogs that are capable, not because I necessarily have to..


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## Ben Thompson

Stefan most have no idea how to shoot a gun for home or personal defense how to train for it...its the same with dogs.


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## Stefan Schaub

Ben Thompson said:


> Stefan most have no idea how to shoot a gun for home or personal defense how to train for it...its the same with dogs.


so maybe he should invest money in a good security system, i would spend my money in a well proven ukrainian girl.they can fight like a 250 pound bouncer and can clean the house at the same time.what does your heart need more??


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## Nicole Stark

Stefan Schaub said:


> so maybe he should invest money in a good security system, i would spend my money in a well proven ukrainian girl.they can fight like a 250 pound bouncer and can clean the house at the same time.what does your heart need more??


Ha ha. Well maybe a good blow job once in a while just to keep things interesting. \\/ I'm not trying to be vulgar, but Stefan tends to come off as a crabby bastard most of the time, so it's kind of funny to me when his sense of humor comes out. I have no idea what he's like in person but over the internet he comes across like Tony Beets on Gold Rush. No bullshit. A straight shooter who doesn't have to tell you that he is just to make you believe that's what he really is.


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## Ben Thompson

When she finds out I am not in reality rich, she will throw me out the window.


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## Brian McQuain

Stefan Schaub said:


> what does your heart need more??


An Italian woman, who does all that plus cooks.


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## Travis Ragin

The day that it becomes not acceptable to use Man's best friend as protection(or layer).....as suggested.

The next day, all protection sports should cease to operate. No more PSA,IronDog,IPO,French Ring...

No?

Why would you need your dog to 'practice' biting behaviors on a human? They can't be used in an actual situation. Why would one need to _simulate_ what could happen in a violent encounter? It won't ever be utilized. 

Therefore, only Military and Police Service dogs could be trained or even considered as acceptable to bite *ever*.... civilian training of this sort would be essentially criminal. hypothetically speaking, of course


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## Haz Othman

Stefan Schaub said:


> so maybe he should invest money in a good security system, i would spend my money in a well proven ukrainian girl.they can fight like a 250 pound bouncer and can clean the house at the same time.what does your heart need more??


Are you breeding these .


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## Dave Colborn

If the op had said his two trainers told him this....

"so maybe he should invest money in a good security system, i would spend my money in a well proven ukrainian girl.they can fight like a 250 pound bouncer and can clean the house at the same time.what does your heart need more??"

Then i would have known they were good trainers. Hahahaha. I am sure you just gave someone a business idea that will replace the ray allen banner here soon.


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## Timothy Saunders

Training a dog of this type can be done. like someone here said u need a very good trainer for this. He needs to be able to teach a dog to work in defense without being in defense all the time around strangers. That is not so easy to do. If u can't find that person then I would agree,find something else to do with the dog. Done wrong and u get dangerous


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## Stefan Schaub

Nicole Stark said:


> Ha ha. Well maybe a good blow job once in a while just to keep things interesting. \\/ I'm not trying to be vulgar, but Stefan tends to come off as a crabby bastard most of the time, so it's kind of funny to me when his sense of humor comes out. I have no idea what he's like in person but over the internet he comes across like Tony Beets on Gold Rush. No bullshit. A straight shooter who doesn't have to tell you that he is just to make you believe that's what he really is.



Tony Beets looks better than me!


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## Christopher Jones

I agree with Stefan, get a new dog. The last thing you want to be doing is screwing with a pitts head by training him in defence.


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## Christopher Jones

Nicole Stark said:


> Ha ha. Well maybe a good blow job once in a while just to keep things interesting. \\/ I'm not trying to be vulgar, but Stefan tends to come off as a crabby bastard most of the time, so it's kind of funny to me when his sense of humor comes out. I have no idea what he's like in person but over the internet he comes across like Tony Beets on Gold Rush. No bullshit. A straight shooter who doesn't have to tell you that he is just to make you believe that's what he really is.


What type of women only does it "once in a while"? :-k


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## Nicole Stark

Christopher Jones said:


> What type of women only does it "once in a while"? :-k


Who knows, but certainly not this one. 

But Stefan's 250 lb, fighting, cooking, Ukranian brute that doubles as a protection agent of his might not be the kind to enjoy that type of task or even do it well. Heck she might even try to bite it off !!


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## Nicole Stark

Stefan Schaub said:


> Tony Beets looks better than me!


Naw, Tony Beets looks like an older version of my dad. My dad doesn't talk the way Tony does anymore but he used to. I remember counting the number of times he said the f word in one sentence. It was five. Anway, I've seen what you look like, you look better than Tony Beets.


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## hatem zalloum

thank you all for your input. much appreciated.. 
in answer to your legitimate questions & to make a long story short, dogs have been an integral part of my life for the past 40 years  I've done plenty of obedience but NEVER got into the protection work. don't ask me why, but now i am so very interested to get into this world. 
i don't have any real protection needs but just feel that i want to concur this world and enjoy my dogs in a different way 
thanks once again


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## hatem zalloum

thank you all for your input. much appreciated.. 
in answer to your legitimate questions & to make a long story short, dogs have been an integral part of my life for the past 40 years I've done plenty of obedience but NEVER got into the protection work. don't ask me why, but now i am so very interested to get into this world. 
i don't have any real protection needs but just feel that i want to concur this world and enjoy my dogs in a different way 
thanks once again


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## Nicole Stark

You got some input and I am curious what do you plan on doing with him now. Also you didn't mention where you are located so does that mean you aren't interested in possibly getting someone from here to take another look at him.


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## hatem zalloum

I live in Jordan  
my decision is to keep the pitbull as a pet and start working my 3 year old gsd who seems to have the drives necessary for the job. 

thank you all again. will keep you posted.


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## Joby Becker

hatem zalloum said:


> I live in Jordan
> my decision is to keep the pitbull as a pet and start working my 3 year old gsd who seems to have the drives necessary for the job.
> 
> thank you all again. will keep you posted.



Forgot to mention the mature GSD :roll::roll:


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## hatem zalloum

Joby Becker said:


> Forgot to mention the mature GSD :roll::roll:


Did NOT forget to mention the GSD! It's just that i wanted to work my younger pitbull thinking that it was my better option.

since the pitbull didn't have what it takes i decided to keep him as a pet and check if the older "show line" GSD has what it takes.

Guess what? He displayed GREAT pray drive when tested and the trainer was more than happy with him, hence decided to go ahead and start working him


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