# Breed Suitability Testing



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

I know for the German Shepherd, Schutzhund is the traditional breed suitability test (BST). However, I am not aware of too many other breeds having BSTs, and even some with GSDs seem to prefer different sports (Ring Sport, PSA, etc.). What determines a dog's suitability to breed? Is it largely tied to achieving a title in one sport over another, and is it necessarily tied to a certain level (i.e. level III in Ringsport for Dutchies a/o Mals, SchH or IPO III for GSDs, etc.) or just that they can compete and meet other criteria specific to you as a breeder?

For the off-breeds, how do you determine breed suitability when the most common avenues are not really necessarily good indicators of your breed's strengths a/o purpose? While the Bouvier seems to have a few that have risen the ranks (kind of surprising in some ways), most off-breeds just do not seem to fair too well. Do those of you involved with the off-breeds feel using traditionally herder-based tests are the best criteria to evaluate those dogs?

Finally, do law enforcement people look at titles as being at all important in breed suitability or just whether or not the dogs pass certain tests done by the officers (or whomever)? Similarly, you could include personal protection dogs (I realize they are not the same, but PP trainers generally do not participate in sport). Are they largely determined by how they are in their actual job and training, and are there other subjective means of determining their worth?

-Cheers


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

The Korung is largely the Breeding test now in Europe for Malinois...Schutzhund for Malinois folks (at least the ones I have talked to) state that Sch is BS for Breeding, and that it's a measure of a trainers ability. I agree, and never would use Sch as a mark of a dog that can produce a good puppy or even a measure how good a dog is. I think Sch can weed out the very worst dogs, but it does not really seperate the good dogs from the great. A good dog can compete with a great dog in Sch...which Sucks. But again, I just do not take a lot of stock in that Sch is a BST. Maybe for some folks it means something, But it's a very small piece of the pie to me.


I do not think Sch has been a BST since people started Competeting for points.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Probably the best over all test in the world is the Dutch KNPV trial.

A key factor is that you can not run a private trial and pick your
judge and helpers, if you want the certificate you must go to one
specific trial with three appointed judges, and two certified helpers.

Schutzhund has been significantly watered down over the past twenty
years, and control is in the hands of the FCI show breeders rather
than working people. Nevertheless, in the big picture it has served
as an excellent breeding selection test.

As a Bouvier person, my experience is that all of this talk about
Schutzhund not being a good test is what has contributed to the demise
of this breed, in American the working association, NAWBA, insisted on
creating a special Mickey Mouse character test.

I was very much in opposition, and have been banned from all NAWBA
events for my trouble, that is telling em the truth. In the eighties and
nineties when I was involved with the organization we had comeptitions
with multiple Schfutzhund III dogs.

In the past several years there has been no top level competition, 
the "championship" either canceled or with no passing entries.

This year they had one marginal Schutzhund I dog.

But a whole bunch of crap passed the character test....

The problem is, the people who are against these tests wind up
just talking smack about how tough their dogs are; and talking
is so easy.

If Schutzhund is not challenging enough, why not take a dog
out there and show us ?

More details:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/TT.htm

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/WorkingTrials.htm


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Jim,i used to read your articles in dogsports magazine it seems like a long time ago.
Even then i was thinking you were fighting an uphill battle and you are still running against the wind,it will be very hard to chance the mindset of showpeople and i think many do not want to know what is really out there because they can not deal with it.
I hope you can continue to make a difference.
Now back to the issue,what is a good breed suitability test?
A small story,a friend of mine in holland is an avid pigeonrace enthousiast and he used to win a lot of prices and people wanted to have his stock and he sold a lot of young birds all over Holland.
One day he got a phone call from a man who he sold two birds to a few years ago,the man told him he had won a lot of prices and that he wanted to buy the parents of the birds.My friend had just got rid of a few older birds and the parents were among them.

The point being,you can not know if an animal is really suitable for breeding untill they have reproduced and their offspring is as good as or better then the parents.
Of course the prospect should undergo as many tests as possible,both workingwise and health checks.

For me it now means i will only get a dog from linebreeding and if possible a repeat breeding.In KNPV there are some bitches that had pups from only one male because it clicked the first time and some litters have all been certified.
I have raised and trained a number of dogs over the years and i have never had any luck with pups from an experimental breeding.Putting a great male and a fantastic female together does not guarantee good offspring.
Some males do produce well on many different lines but they themselves are almost always linebred.The proof is in the pudding.In the last fifteen years or so KNPV breeders have come to understand this and have taken a lot of guess work out of breeding good dogs.
It is a lot easier to find a good pup now compared to twenty years ago.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

The problem with BST is taht you nead to do teh test "hard" egnuf so the real crappers downt make it but easy egnuf so that the Medioker dogs can pas the test with som traning. If you make a test so hard that only a handfull of dogs pass it ther will be to little intrest in teh test and it will never be a test used by many peopel anywas, thefor it dosent chang anyting. The breeders that breed dogs that past this test will stil breed good dogs without it  

So sorry to say, But its upp to the breeders and the byers to make that extra stepp forward. A BST is only as good as the avregde dog...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

James Downey said:


> The Korung is largely the Breeding test now in Europe for Malinois...


Jim, do you mean the Korung is the main test that is labeled as a BST available to Malinois, or do you mean it is the test most people in Europe who own Malinois are using to test the dogs? 

Either way, I think only a VERY small percentage of Malinois in Europe are taking the Korung, the French and Belgiums are still using Ring to test their dogs and the Dutch are using KNPV. The Germans are the only ones I know of who use the Korung on a regular basis, with only the occasional dog from another country going and doing it.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Isent Korung a show dog test? Show line GSDs with "sch" I tittels?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

andreas broqvist said:


> Isent Korung a show dog test? Show line GSDs with "sch" I tittels?


Depends on the breed, the Malinois Korung isn't what I would consider a show dog test. There are some videos of it on YouTube if you search for Malinois Korung.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: Breed Suitability Testing, in response to Mr. van Strien*

I agree with all of the spirit and most of the points of your commentary.

Nobody should ever assume that a dog is "good" either for work or for
breeding based on any sort of performance certification.

But if dogs or trainers were "in training for" KNPV or some other sport,
and do not wind up with a title, there is a problem.

As you know with your own eyes, the Bouvier is almost gone, I think there
was only one KNPV certificate last year, and these lines are the foundation
of all serious Bouvier breeding.

The problem in America is not the "show breeders," rather it is the little
old ladies who sell "working" puppies but do not train or certify them in
anything. They don't do Schutzhund because it is too German or "not
for the Bouvier spirit" or whatever. 

Oh yes, but they do the "character test" !

You can imagine what kind of crap that turns out to be, but if the
test is given by the NAWBA pet Frog it somehow is seen to have
meaning.

And before anybody gets their shorts in knots, "little old lady" is
a state of mind and really has nothing to do with little, old or female.

In the Bouvier world, we have lots of examples of little old ladies
with a vestigial penis and no balls, even on the NAWBA board.

In the eighties and early nineties we usually had several Schutzhund III
Bouviers at the championships each year.

Were these all great dogs, or even good dogs ?

Of course not !

But when someone puts the work into getting a home field Schutzhund II
on a relatively poor dog, you can be sure he will look for working lines
in his next dog.

After a bitter fight, I lost the battle in the mid nineties and the little
old ladies took over NAWBA and set up their character test. Things
were OK for a few years, there were dogs and people in the pipe
line.

But in recent years threre are typically only couple of low level entries,
sometimes none and sometimes they cancel the Schutzhund trial.

But they have their character test all right, and tell each other fairy
tails about their working Bouviers.

The battle has bee lost for at least fifteen years, and I really did
try to think in terms of the Malinois, but there was just no fire
in the belly, I admire the breed, I respect the breed, but it was
just not there for me.

In retrospect, the Bouvier was a lost cause when I began in
the eighties, but I could not see it.

In the end, it was not the show people.

In the end, the Bouvier was lost because in the aggregrate
the working Bouvier people were insufficient in courage,
hardness and will.

It truly is as simple as that.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

*Re: Breed Suitability Testing, in response to Mr. van Strien*

its not only the bouvs
dobes and a few others are also getting lost


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## Stephanie O'Brien (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: Breed Suitability Testing, in response to Mr. van Strien*

I think we should have a korung/BST program here in the US. I'm not sure how one would go about setting it up but it would be nice to have. IF done properly, I think it could be a useful factor in improving some breeds here. Testing the character and nerve of dogs being considered for breeding seems to be overlooked these days in the name of points and financial motivations. 
People seem afraid to really 'test' their dogs because they might faulter miserably and the training band-aids MAY fall off. If that happens, everyone will know and possibly not want to use that dog. But isnt that the point? To weed out the less than suitable from the suitable? Yes you can train for these things but training will only go so far. Im not saying it's the answer, but it would be encouraging to see. Ofcourse a few sub-par dogs will get through but thats just how it goes.
Even though I train for ring, I dont use that as my gauge for what a great dog should be. Yes, it is a factor but I like to see the dog outside the program he/she is familiar with, how they handle stress and situations they have not been trained for. No dog is 100% perfect, I have yet to see one but a smart breeder should weigh an individual dog's strengths and weaknesses.
Im thinking a useful test might look something inbetween a shortened KNPV cert and the German Korung. Nothing crazy for obedience/control but more focused on the character/nerve (some surprise scenarios/stress) and also something to test athleticism and maybe a scent exercise as well?
JMO as always.....it's fun to think about.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: Breed Suitability Testing, in response to Mr. van Strien*



Jim Engel said:


> Schutzhund has been significantly watered down over the past twenty
> years, and control is in the hands of the FCI show breeders rather
> than working people.
> 
> ...


If SchH is watered down and no longer truly as good a test, and creating Mickey Mouse feel-good tests is probably not the answer either, in your opinion what's the best alternative? Training in SchH and realizing the trials aren't necessarily what they used to be and holding yourself ("you" as in breeders, not necessarily Jim) and your dogs to a higher standard?

Regardless, if SchH is not challenging enough as some seem to indicate, and a breeder truly believes that, why should they bother with it if titling in it tells them nothing?



Jim Engel said:


> Nobody should ever assume that a dog is "good" either for work or for
> breeding based on any sort of performance certification.


Then what is a good evaluation? Just working the dog on an individual basis and testing the stock with agitators or people you trust, trying to recreate the KNPV or similar test, improving an existing test (SchH, PSA, etc.) or choosing the best test or sport for your goals and see how your dogs perform based on your needs and opinions? I'm not criticizing, just trying to get a feel for what ideally could/should be done then.



> In the end, the Bouvier was lost because in the aggregrate
> the working Bouvier people were insufficient in courage,
> hardness and will.


I think Butch Henderson and Bill Hollinger would disagree with you. :razz:

-Cheers


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*In response to Mr. Ruby*

"I think Butch Henderson and Bill Hollinger would disagree with you. "

Really ? I have an assignment for you, go talk to Mr. Hollinger and
report back to us. I can provide the phone number if you need it....

You question on what a breeder should do is a valid one.

My answer is that he should train with the best people he has access to and 
make his dogs as strong, confident, happy workers as he can. Be honest
with yourself, seek input from the serious trainers you work with, and let
this guide your breeding decisions. Decide who in your breed you respect
most and seek their opinion on your dogs, your training and your breeding
decisions. Don't be impressed because someone lives in Europe, but go to
Europe if that is where the dogs and knowledge is.

Trial to the best of your ability in the sport you train in, even if it is not
perfect. Not for other people, not for the judge, but for yourself, because
you do not know yourself even a little bit until you walk on the field.

You will learn things, about yourself and about your dog, that you don't like.

Go back to your training club and try to become better. Again, not for the
people on the side lines or the puppy sellers in your breed, but or yourself,
but for the respect of your peers, the people also on the training field
struggling and making mistakes.

The only meaningful way to train and breed dogs is for yourself.

In America this mostly means Schutzhund, serious Ring training is available
in only one or a hand full of locations. PSA is not a bad idea, but pretty
much seems to be floundering. All of the other American systems seem to
have disappeard.

As for what is a good test, there seem to be two ways to look at it.

Schutzhund by the rules and in the spirit of 1985 would be a good choice,
not everything was perfect then, but it was over all a truly good system.

And with the serious old school people Schutzhund is still a good program in
america.

The biggest disappointment to me is that Schutzhund USA has by SV political
manipulation been watered down into a German Shepherd quasi conformation
organization, with more and more of the things that make the SV the cancer
at the heart of the German Shepherd community in Germany.

I don't mind Schutzhund USA being a German Shepherd organization, I love
the GSD. That is why it is sad to see it adapting the worst rather than the
best of the GSD German shepherd heritage.

The other alternative would be something like the KNPV in America.

But people miss the really big thing about the KNPV, the active cooperation
between the police officials and the training community. Many KNPV officers
are also high ranking police administrators, and there is cooperation in training
and police an civilian competition on the same field.

In America the cops are afraid to let the guy off the street compete,
but that is an entirely different subject......





:razz:


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: In response to Mr. Ruby*



Jim Engel said:


> "I think Butch Henderson and Bill Hollinger would disagree with you. "
> 
> Really ? I have an assignment for you, go talk to Mr. Hollinger and
> report back to us. I can provide the phone number if you need it....


By that I meant that Butch & Bill reportedly still have good dogs, so I don't know if they'd say the Bouvier has _entirely_ been lost. I've talked to Bil exactly once, but have had a few people say his dogs are pretty good and I like what he seems to be striving for (although I don't have a Bouvier and I haven't had a chance to meet his dogs or see more than some working videos so take that with a huge grain of salt).

-Cheers


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: In response to Mr. Ruby*



David Ruby said:


> By that I meant that Butch & Bill reportedly still have good dogs, so I don't know if they'd say the Bouvier has _entirely_ been lost. I've talked to Bil exactly once, but have had a few people say his dogs are pretty good and I like what he seems to be striving for (although I don't have a Bouvier and I haven't had a chance to meet his dogs or see more than some working videos so take that with a huge grain of salt).
> 
> -Cheers


I think Bill is down to one or two Bouviers, and is personally training
a Dutch Shepherd right now. Bill brought in a number of really good
Bouviers in the nineties, including a KNPV male that was an exceptional
dog, and worked closely with Butch, I think several of the best of these
dogs lived with Butch a lot of the time. When is the last time you saw
Butch train a Bouvier ?

Yes, there are a few remanants, a few good dogs. I like the young male
I am working right now for instance.

But the big picture is anything but good.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

*Re: In response to Mr. Ruby*



Jim Engel said:


> I think Bill is down to one or two Bouviers, and is personally training
> a Dutch Shepherd right now. Bill brought in a number of really good
> Bouviers in the nineties, including a KNPV male that was an exceptional
> dog, and worked closely with Butch, I think several of the best of these
> ...


You could be right. I believe Bill is planning a breeding for next year. I've heard good things about Butch's dog, I believe it's named Serious? There's a guy that got a bitch from Butch, I think from Serious, that's planning on competing with her and supposedly a pretty good prospect. Still, I at least believe they both have viable breeding programs with plans to keep producing working dogs. Howard Gaines that posts here has some dogs at least in part descended from Butch's program (I want to say half from Liberty K9, half from KNPV stock). As for Butch's last trained/titled Bouvier? Beats me. However, he's apparently still breeding some reportedly good stock on occasion.

So no, it's not like great old school Bouviers are falling from trees, however if somebody's looking for a good Bouvier there are three potential breeders to call and inquire to that have bred in recent memory or are breeding in the very near future. Mike Suttle's mentioned importing some good Bouviers from Holland in some threads on this board, and I can only presume he could help somebody serious about Bouviers find a good prospect if they wanted to import a nice dog. I just don't think Bouviers are a lost cause based on what I've been told, or maybe I'm an optimist and hopeful that the breed can fly under the radar of the general public and enough breeders will be breeding them to preserve the breed. I hope so, it's a breed I think I'd enjoy for what it's worth.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I see many of these tests as a crutch that will qualify just about anyone as a breeder....just get the dog to pass a few tests and you qualify. If the breeder doesn't know an oustanding dog when he see's one he has no business breeding. All tests are as dependent on the trainer's abilities as they are the dogs.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I see many of these tests as a crutch that will qualify just about anyone as a breeder....just get the dog to pass a few tests and you qualify. If the breeder doesn't know an oustanding dog when he see's one he has no business breeding. All tests are as dependent on the trainer's abilities as they are the dogs.


Nonsense.

Simple minded nonsense.

Under the Turnipseed plan all you have to do is declare your
dogs outstanding to make them worthy to be bred or for work,
and pretend that tests are not needed because you just happen to
have been born capable of looking at a dog and knowing his
potential.

But anybody can make these declarations, and the poor working
dog breeding in America, and elsewhere, is being done mostly by
these self declared experts.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Before they had "tests" they simply bred to the dogs that got the job done. Everthing since has led to being able to breed weaker dogs. One example is the belief the pups have to be handled. It only has a real benefit for the weak. Saving all the weak in a litter is another thing, that in days gone by, would have never been done. From your answer Jim, I have to assume if you had a couple of litters of pups, you could't see an outstanding one in the bunch. If that is the case, how has testing your dogs helped the bouv's? I hope you proved your point on testing by having all dogs test at the highest level. I never tested a dog in my life until the breed club challenged me to run mine against the best at the Field Nationals. Mine set the highest standard they had in 22 years. All I ever did was hunt them and bred to what worked and never before were they tested against any other dog in the breed. Before going to the nationals I was told this same stuff about having to test so you know what you have. Haven't heard that since. I am giving a dog to a board member here for a reason, I can say these dogs will get the job done when it is reality....I don't know if they can or will "play the testing game" because they don't tend to be game players. So we are going to find out and I am not opposed to that. It's a game and I don't know how they will handle that. The dogs have never backed out of the brush with a bad hog even when severly injured or after being thrown in the air a couple of times. Funny thing about the field trials for hunting dogs....it is said that it is a good view of what is breedable. It isn't true because most of those dogs can't hunt....they run field trials their whole life. I don't see where sport dogs are going to be a lot different.....unless, rather than breeding good solid, well rounded dogs, the new definition is a dog bred to play the game, but, not necessarily able to get the job done when the chips are down.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Now that I have gotten past the "simple minded" part of your post Jim....My contention is that a good part of what you are seeing in any tewst is the ability of the trainers. In view of this, I suppose I should give a couple of more dogs to different trainers. The dogs are all about the same so thye biggest variable is going to be the trainers. Personally, I want to see what the dog is made of....not the trainer. I guess in this case.....there is just no way to get around the trainers abilities. It will also be interesting because I have heard really high prey dogs won't work as well and these are high prey dogs.

I did read the articles you posted and agree mwith a lot of it....but you are cutting the show hobby breeders to much slack. They have a lot to do with derogatory teminalolgy such as BYB's. They have, over the last 100 years+ put themselves into a poisition above all breeders through such labeling. They singlehandedly destroyed the view of line/inbreeding through their practice of severe backbreeding based solely on looks with little regard to health and/or ability. No tight breeding is going to be successful if appearance is the sole criteria of that breeding. Show hobby breeders are, in every way, backyard breeders. In the working dog ranks of hobby breeders, I can't help but think they have a leg up since they are usually breeding with a working goal.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Yes, a good functional working dog is absolutely the combination of a good
dog and good training.

How could it be anything else ? In a police style dog, trainability
is just as important as courage and stability, and to know if a dog
is trainable you simply have to get your hands dirty and train the
dog.

Some dogs who appear energetic wilt under training. Sometimes it
is a bad trainer who puts too much pressure on the dog, sometimes
it is a dog too sensitive.

We all can agree, I think, that all of these "temperament" and 
"character" tests are nonsense, mostly supported by show breeders
and people who want to sell working pups an the basis of certificates
several generations ago.

Nobody in the Bouvier world has heaped more scorn on the 
character tests propagated by the French and Belgian national
clubs and NAWBA in America.

Hell, the NAWBA ladies have banned me from their events and all
of their web discussion boards because I have expressed such
contempt for their tests, and implicitly for them and their dogs.

Sure, there is huge variation in the validity of the tests, with the
phony character tests at one extreme, but the KNPV and old style
Schutzhund tests at the other end. And lesser known tests such as
the NVBK Ring tests in Belgium.

I have enormous respect for the courage and integrity of the Ring
people in Belgium in breaking off in 1963, telling the FCI sanctioned
kennel club to screw themselves and started their own program.

More details:
http://www.angelplace.net/dog/BelgianRing.htm

This is the kind of thing we in America should be looking at, this
is the example we should try to emulate.

Do you really question the validity, the necessity, of these
Belgian Ring, Dutch Police and old style Schutzhund trials 
for the maintenance of these working lines ?

Yes, the Schutzhund sport is being watered down, and unless we
can somehow take control back and reverse this then it will sooner
rather than later lose all credibility.

Nobody knows this better than I and the others who have seen
it evolve over the past thirty years.

French Ring in America is just a non issue, they are right now going
through their every ten year phase of splitting up and fighting among
themselves and whinning about who the French love the most, who
is giving real trials.

In America we need to quit sucking up the degenerate Euro organizations,
specifally the SV and all FCI sanctioned breed clubs.

Sure, we need to seek out the Europeans who have the knowledge and
the dogs, but we need to grow up and stand on our own feet.

An American organization dedicated to 1985 style Schutzhund would be
a damned good place to start.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Do you really question the validity, the necessity, of these
> Belgian Ring, Dutch Police and old style Schutzhund trials
> for the maintenance of these working lines ?


I don't question the validity of any testing Jim. But is is still a marginal test and is not reality. Field trials are the same. Being realistic, testing is the only option left for many venues. Think about this. Eventually they will outlaw hunting bears, hogs and lions and probably all fur game with dogs. We have already seen such bills here. When it is finally outlawed, we will be forced to game playing also to determine which dogs won't cur.....but like many of the bite sports, there will be no real way to tell how a dog will react when it is a do or die situation. It will also become a training and obedience exercise as a medium for handing out the points when more than one dog looks really good. Inevitably, most paths for working dogs are leading to the same place......the good dogs that get bred will be the ones that look good during a choreographed routine. Take **** trials....you get docked if the dogs kills the ****! Now that is realistic for a hunting dog. Has little to do with the definition of what a good dog was at one time.......one that did the job or was culled. Your own opinion verifies that that change is already taking place if judging breedability of dogs depends on bite sports. Breeding to titles instead of sound dogs shows me nothing....but more value is put on the title by most folks for the simple reason it sells dogs. My opinions may be simple minded in your view, but I am pretty sure that there is a big difference in what we both consider a breedworthy dog.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't question the validity of any testing Jim. But is is still a marginal test and is not reality..


So by this logic Ray Lewis, Urlacher, - insert the name of your 
favorite line backer- are just pussy boys because they play in a
"game" with helmnts, rules to protect them and guys with funny
striped shirts to keep it from being real.

Right ?

To find a real man, ya gotta have the winner of a bar fight ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well now that is a pretty simple minded analogy Jim, but, let's run with it. It is a game and you would would like to base what is breedworthy in the human race on a football player?

I would imagine so, you want to base breedworthy on a schutzhund title. Hey, thats fine if you want to think it is the deciding factor but, let's not talk about the little old ladies and what they are breeding.

I am trying to be reasonable. Gave you a good example of where hunting dogs are headed. Do you think for one minute I would go in the brush with several hogs with a couple of dogs that passed a test made up by a non hunter, simulating what it is like to go toe to toe with something actually trying to kill them. Not a chance. I would be sitting there by myself more than likely. 

That doesn't negate the fact that this is what you are baseing breedworthy on so it isn't just little old ladies doing it. I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it because in tyhe not to distant future, made up tests will be all any of us have to work with.......then we can all agree that it is as real as it is going to get.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Let's see, this is sort of coming apart.

NFL football is a little old ladies game ?

You talk of tests made up by non hunters, but the KNPV 
trials were set up with major hands on police participation,
and police administrators continue to be principle KNPV
leaders to this day. Belgian Ring was created by the same
set of people who invented the modern police dog about
1900.

More information:
http://www.angelplace.net/dog/GentPolice/GentPolice.htm

Schutzhund was more breed selection oriented, but 
has been the primary source of German Police dogs for
a century. Yes, there are problems in Schutzhund and IPO
today, but that does not negate a century of success and
service.

For practical reasons and legal liability reasons you usually
send out one police dog, and he needs to be ready, just like
a surgeon has to pass many artificial tests before he operates
on you. 

As discussed in detail in the Coppinger book, herding dogs
are largely self taught, with the young dogs learning from the older
dogs; and if a young dog does not cut the mustard the older dogs
take up the slack.

I know relatively little about hunting, but as I understand it the local
practical situation would be coyote hunting, where you typically
have a pack of dogs, nine 4 wheel vehicles and forty gallons of alcohol
in pursuit of one scrawney 30 pound wild canine. One more or less young
dogs in the pack is not going to be mission critical, and you can afford 
to see how everything works out when everybody sobers up in
the morning. Not sure how a couple of loose pigs are all that
much different.

To repeat, nobody believes that a working trial, particularly a single
trial, is decisive in breeding selection or in deciding which dogs are street
worthy. In the Netherlands the KNPV certificate will usually be sufficient
to put a dog on the street, but there is, at least in the departments I
have visited, periodic follow up evaluation. Often this is an outside
the department evaluator who will come in perhaps every six months
and test the dogs. When I have seen it, it consists of parts of the
KNPV trial selected by the tester, and he is free to follow up as much
as he wants.

Basically you have backed yourself into a corner and are making silly
arguments and demonstrating avoidance; perhaps you should throw
in the towel and thank me for the education.....


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

> So by this logic Ray Lewis, Urlacher, - insert the name of your
> favorite line backer- are just pussy boys because they play in a
> "game" with helmnts, rules to protect them and guys with funny
> striped shirts to keep it from being real.
> ...


I don't think anybody said that. However, who is better equipped for actual LEO- or Military-type service, Ray Lewis, Brock Lesnar, or a Navy Seal? Just because you are a tough guy athlete doesn't mean you are the best person for a specific job. It has nothing to do with finding a "real man."



Jim Engel said:


> Let's see, this is sort of coming apart.
> 
> NFL football is a little old ladies game ?


I don't think that's what Don was saying at all. I think the "old ladies" comment stemmed from your earlier comments on SchH.

Not to speak for Don, but NFL Football is, in fact a game. It's an analogy, as flawed as any, but there are parallels. It's a game. There are rules. There's safety equipment for both sides and you get penalties if you touch the QB after the ball leaves his hands or if he slides. After the game they shake hands, say a prayer, then maybe go out and have a drink together. Even MMA, Boxing, and ***** are sports. There are timed rounds, rules, referees, etc. I've seen SchH dogs that treated it as a game. They key up on the sleeve, bark, run up and bite the sleeve, and afterwards (at least some) can chill out with the agitator and have a jolly good time, maybe even get a pat the dog on the head and they're best buds. There's a difference between that and a dog that is not looking at it like it's a game and the agitator's their buddy. Sure, you have guys that play the "game" (whatever the game is) like Lawrence Taylor. You also have guys who play it like Brett Favre; great player, one of the best to ever pick up the ball, but you don't get the impression he's out to destroy the people on the field personally.

That's not an indictment of SchH. It's obviously a time-tested tried-and-true evaluation and a good foundation for a lot of Police dogs. Presumably, most doing SchH or Ring Sport aren't deluding themselves into thinking they've got the next tough-as-nails Police or SWAT dog, or that they need or necessarily want that. However, a few Police officers on this board have said that they do not look for highly-trained-in-SchH dogs for actual LEO dogs. Rather, based on what they have said, they have to retool the dog from doing SchH to doing street work. Not sure it matters all that much since you probably won't know what the dog is truly made of until its first actual live encounter.



> You talk of tests made up by non hunters, but the KNPV
> trials were set up with major hands on police participation,
> and police administrators continue to be principle KNPV
> leaders to this day. Belgian Ring was created by the same
> ...


True. We don't have KNPV or NVBK in the States though, do we? Slightly off-topic, I would be interested to know as it stands now if Police use KNPV or NVBK dogs more-or-less straight from the sport field to do Police work or if they require a great amount of retooling? Or better yet, as it stands now, how consistently are KNPV or NVBK titled dogs actually able to go from being tested & titled to being actual working Police & security or personal protection dogs. And how does that compare to the sports & tests available in the States?



> I know relatively little about hunting, but as I understand it the local
> practical situation would be coyote hunting, where you typically
> have a pack of dogs, nine 4 wheel vehicles and forty gallons of alcohol
> in pursuit of *one scrawney 30 pound wild canine*. One more or less young
> ...


Coyote









Wild Boar









I don't hog hunt, but you have to give a little more credit to hog dogs than that. Have you ever seen what a rank wild hog can do to a dog, even pics or video no the Internet? It's a heck of a lot more than what a coyote can do unless that's one serious coyote. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's probably a bit different catching a wild hog than chasing down a coyote.

-Cheers


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

*Re: In response to Mr. Ruby*



Jim Engel said:


> "I think Butch Henderson and Bill Hollinger would disagree with you. "
> 
> Really ? I have an assignment for you, go talk to Mr. Hollinger and
> report back to us. I can provide the phone number if you need it....
> ...


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: Breed Suitability Testing - red neck style*

In the newspapers a year of so ago there was the 
big story of the young man, eleven years or so old,
who had gone out and slain this 1000 mound monster
boar who was a threat to his community, a feel good
story about "still some real Americans."

But gradually the story came out. The pig had
actually escaped from the neighbors, and gotten
fat. The pig was actually fenced in when they sent
up for the boy, sat him on the fence and had him
fire away until the pig finally dropped dead, either
finally fatally wounded or just from exhaustion.

Ya might be a Red Neck if.......

And, yes, dogs go directly from the KNPV certification
directly into service, this is the test by the police 
community to certify the dog as street ready.

Schutzhund requires a little more conversion, but
this is where teh German police dogs came from
for a century.

Yes, we don't have similar programs in America,
and our greatest need is to adopt this sort of program
and this sort of spirit.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Basically you have backed yourself into a corner and are making silly
> arguments and demonstrating avoidance; perhaps you should throw
> in the towel and thank me for the education.....


Jim, you have me rolling in the aisles. Seems to me you have trouble interpreting the simplest of things when they are not in agreement with your ideas. I originaloly said that a breeder should the judge of his own dogs....you don't think it is possible and that they should have a standard to breed to. If there were a standard.....you should find one better than a game is what I am saying. Until that time.....breeders of working dogs should breed what really works from their experience. IF they can't see a good dog, like yourself, leave the breeding to someone else. It isn't hard to see what happened to the bouv's.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> Yes, a good functional working dog is absolutely the combination of a good
> dog and good training.
> 
> How could it be anything else ? In a police style dog, trainability
> ...


Mr Engel....with all due respect. When I hear you spouting off the way you are I have to make a conmment.
You, more than anyone else were responsible for the downfall of NAWBA. You tried to run it like your own little fiefdom in the process alienating most of the serious working dog people in the movement.
I will give you credit in that your earlier writings rejuvenated interest in the Bouvier during the eighties.
Also, when I hear you propping up schutzhund as a suitability test, I am reminded of all the shit dogs and performances you brought on the field purely as misused tool for self promotion.
Didn't you at one time write a column "The poison pen"?


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