# Some crazy people out there... this made me laugh :)



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcJRjYVcPzg


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

What are these dogs training for?

Pretty sick!


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Oy watching this is almost enough to give me another concussion. Why target the head?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Oy watching this is almost enough to give me another concussion. Why target the head?


That's why I wanted to know what they are training for?

Military?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i just see broken teeth, muzzle injuries and it seems the dogs don't rebite..it's just weird "training".


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Oy watching this is almost enough to give me another concussion. Why target the head?




#-o](*,). So dog can target the face once the muzzle is removed. Or at least that's what I'm betting on.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> That's why I wanted to know what they are training for?
> 
> Military?


I don't think there is special training involved. Probably some macho thing.


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

The liklihood of broken teeth worries me. Very odd.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> #-o](*,). So dog can target the face once the muzzle is removed. Or at least that's what I'm betting on.


Ever see those face targeting videos ??? here is one..another one has a Rottweiler and some other dogs....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEKFmUR5TE8&feature=related


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Ever see those face targeting videos ??? here is one..another one has a Rottweiler and some other dogs....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEKFmUR5TE8&feature=related


OMG!!! So much for going to the hospital, that is a video of a dog being trained to kill!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> That's why I wanted to know what they are training for?
> 
> Military?


Certainly things have changed since I was involved in the MWD Program, but we never targeted the face. As an extension of that thought, we do NOT target the face in current day law enforcement either. I would think any U.S. law enforcement agency that does is extremely ignorant. 

DFrost


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Ever see those face targeting videos ??? here is one..another one has a Rottweiler and some other dogs....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEKFmUR5TE8&feature=related


what do you expect for a Russian???


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I've seen A LOT of french police/military k9 videos where they train the dogs to target the face. I think its common over there. I doubt the efficiency in practical settings


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I've seen A LOT of french police/military k9 videos where they train the dogs to target the face. I think its common over there. I doubt the efficiency in practical settings


I know in some countries, the wild west ones, they do target areas like the head. Urkraine, Russian territories, Serbia..

From what I gather it is more of a local thing, done by the powerfully corrupted police forces, used to instill fear into the public to keep them in line...make a few examples out of a couple troublemakers..the rest become nice and obedient...

I would say it would be pretty effective in a practical setting if they walked the dog up onleash and sent him on your face/head from a few feet away. They want the dogs to do alot of damage and really mess someone up, not bite their arm and hold, a dog that bites and tears pieces off of you, and comes back for more is gonna scare the crap out of you, I would say...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't think the French video is teaching face attacks. I think they're training high muzzle hits and the helmet and face guard are for decoy protection?


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I see the service life of those dogs being cut down due to injuries from those impacts. Might even cripple them. I can't see any reason to train like that other than ego.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I don't think the French video is teaching face attacks. I think they're training high muzzle hits and the helmet and face guard are for decoy protection?


I think you need new glasses 
Unless you are watching some other video...

Do you not see them repeatedly tapping the helmet, tilting it down, and offering it as a target? same way you might slap a suit or a sleeve and present that area for a bite...

if these dogs were unmuzzled and serious dogs, not equipment focused, the face would certainly be a target...in my humble opinion.

anyhow, as usual when someone posts one of these videos and people start speculating, I have tried to contact the poster of the video, hopefully he will reply...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZWf0YhFsgA

not the one I was looking for..but I think a rottie to the face would pretty much make you think about something other than what you were.

and that CO at about 15 seconds seemed to just slam that guy..


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## Steve Groen (Aug 22, 2010)

Edward Egan said:


> What are these dogs training for?
> 
> Pretty sick!


That's the first-week's lesson in "Learn to Defend A Lawsuit and Have Your Dog Put Down - 101."


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I think you need new glasses
> Unless you are watching some other video...
> 
> Do you not see them repeatedly tapping the helmet, tilting it down, and offering it as a target? same way you might slap a suit or a sleeve and present that area for a bite...
> ...



Joby

When you sober up, re look at both videos. The Ukraine video is teaching head, bites off muzzle. The French video is ON muzzle head targeting, where the dogs body is hitting center mass on the bad guy. I think the goal is to take the bad guy off his feet. Take a look at that old French SWAT video where the two Mals go over the van. The French seem to like high hits. I don't think these dogs are routinely worked off muzzle.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> When you sober up, re look at both videos. The Ukraine video is teaching head, bites off muzzle. The French video is ON muzzle head targeting, where the dogs body is hitting center mass on the bad guy. I think the goal is to take the bad guy off his feet. Take a look at that old French SWAT video where the two Mals go over the van. The French seem to like high hits. I don't think these dogs are routinely worked off muzzle.


Hey Thomas, havent drank in few weeks..might toss a few down today though  maybe make a video of the dogs on pillows, or going up stairs or something...

I think you are correct that in most cases that is what is being taught, and also can concur that the russian vids are going a step further, by encouraging full on bites to the head and the face..

I would even go so far as too agree that they might not be intentinally encouraging dogs to bite someone in the face in the video posted, but would have to flat out disagree that they are not "teaching face attacks" as you stated, while working in the muzzle,and after all this type of work it would not be unreasonable to assume that those dogs might bite someone in the head...this happens enough as it is without any encouragement whatsoever, let alone practicing muzzle hits to the face repeatedly again and again...

I have done a fair amount of muzzle work Thomas, and have watched many more people do it many times, and have seen all the good muzzle vids on the net...even once owned the LB muzzle training video 

I have been almost knocked out, by a muzzle hit to the face, from a dog that was not even encouraged to hit the face...

I have seen muzzle work with targets, muzzle work without targets, almost everyone encourages high hits, to knock someone down, but no one I have ever seen has done anything remotely similar to what is going on in that video, drawing attention to, and encouraging hits to the face...purposely and repeatedly...in fact, I have seen very few people using a helmet for muzzle work period, and when they were, it was for safety, not for tapping on it, and encouraging dogs to hit it...I have owned, and seen vests with bite targets on them to encourage dogs to hit high on the chest, or the back...

Most of the time in my opinion dogs are attempting to bite, while in muzzle. I could be wrong ( I am not in the mind of the dog) but I do not think so.

I also would not foolishly draw any type of comparision to this video, and the French RAID videos, on the sole basis that they both involve "The French" LOL...that would be like a french guy watching some crazy youtube videos made in the USA and saying that "The Americans" do this or that. Or a French guy, or Americans like us watching the crazy Russian face-biting videos, and saying "The Russians" like to train dogs to bite the face, when in fact there are 2 or 3 videos posted of this activity, and 1000's of others without it...

Besides that, does a helmet, and muzzle to the face, increase a dogs ability to jump a car, and if a dog is jumping over a car, where would you expect a dog to bite, if sent over a car? is there really a good chance he is gonna bite low? LOL....

How much muzzle work have you done? How do you get dogs to hit high? 

No one I know or have seen puts a helmet on and slaps it and encourages dogs to hit them in the grill...Everyone, around the world even us Americans, like the dog to hit high center mass. 

It is not a neccessary thing to do, and certainly in my opinion would increase the chances of a dog biting someone in the face or head...is it possible I could be right? or am I just drunk again?

Is it possible or even probable that this one guy in your mind, is encouraging the dogs to intentionally blast people in the face in muzzle, or is it that you think that "The French" (only this one guy so far) are that much more advanced in their muzzle training techniques than the other 99.999 % of people that train in muzzle, and have perfected this technique to hit high on the body...

This dog is muzzle trained, a friend of mine's dog...trained by backyard trainers like me..(I have a fair amount of work in this dog) He has never been targeted to the face in a muzzle. How much higher can he go without biting the face? oohh I forgot, he is of FRENCH origin, that must be it..  the knowledge was passed to him genetically because his sire was trained to bash people's faces in muzzle 










Here he is again at a different event. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOQDpS-5GOM

Here is short video of the same dog and another, both muzzle trained (repeat of small amount of footage).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxNYWR-Dutc

*The other dog never really comes up higher than the gut, while doing anything, and usually goes for your junk, or tries to chew out your stomach, in training, which is fine with us, but next time I work him, I will test your theory and put a helmet on, and see if targeting him to my face in a muzzle will cause him to come up higher, when the muzzle is off, and he is allowed to bite, or maybe I won't, because I think that might encourage him to bite me in the face...
*
like I said, I emailed the guy, hopefully he will respond to me, then I can relay what his explanation is, instead of us arguing about it, and you speculating about muzzle training in general, and me stating that I think muzzle targets increase tendencies for dogs to bite in those areas. 

In the mean time, can you at least agree that they ARE in fact "training face attacks", in the muzzle? if you dont see that, like I said you need new glasses...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Most of the time in my opinion dogs are attempting to bite, while in muzzle. I could be wrong ( I am not in the mind of the dog) but I do not think so.


Joby, I don't have any experience with this type of work but have you seen dogs that are naturally inclined to jam people with their muzzles? That little shit of mine has done that to me more times than I can count. In the eye, mouth, jaw, throat, side of the neck, chest, arms, back, etc. 

I've never really been certain why she does that because it can't feel good on her end as she does it hard enough to leave bruises on me. Obviously, there's no intent on her part to bite when she's doing that. I'm not bringing this up to disclose my obviously unruly snipe but rather to mention that I think she knows that by jamming me like that it activates me. Um, even if I am inclined to punish or subdue her in response to her yard darting me like that.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Nicole ... without seeing it, maybe she hasn't been fully conditioned to wearing it yet and is not completely comfortable with it on ... bashing stuff with it on might possibly be confirmed if she doesn't bash with it off 
-- seen this a lot since i use muzzles a lot

also could be a sign it doesn't fit properly

yea it hurts; especially when it's a wire mzl and you get it "high" between your legs :-(

you might wanna try out a different muzzle; i've had some who were bashers w/ jafcos that didn't bash with a mesh, which seemed to confirm it was the muzzle and not just stupid dog behavior

or lay her down and she if she will rub rather than bash


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Nicole ... without seeing it, maybe she hasn't been fully conditioned to wearing it yet and is not completely comfortable with it on ... bashing stuff with it on might possibly be confirmed if she doesn't bash with it off
> -- seen this a lot since i use muzzles a lot
> 
> also could be a sign it doesn't fit properly
> ...


Ha ha, Rick do you really think that I put this little dog in a muzzle (do they even make them that small?) and let her jam on me like that? I meant, she does this without a muzzle with her own muzzle. This is why along with "snipe" she has the nickname of Yard Dart. I was really reflecting upon something Joby said about dogs who did muzzle work were perhaps biting and not using their muzzle in another way.

Sorry just had to come back to this because I was struck with a funny visual of her in a tiny muzzle. There is no way I'd put a muzzle on her here, I'm sure she'd knock my teeth out or lop out one of my eyes if given the chance.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't know your style of heeling, but forgot to mention sometimes SchH trained dogs who "check in" while heeling will do this more w/ a mzl, but it is usually the same type of head butt motion so it's pretty obvious

if it doesn't bother her and she has learned to self satisfy and has made it a habit, then set her up and be ready to deliver some well timed PLUS "P" (do u use Ecollars?)
- hard to deliver a timely lead correction for this


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ok.... got it ...wasn't paying attention as usual 
better go with the spiked muzzle ... inside out of course // lol //


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby

Congrats on the sobriety, don't relapse on account of me or the WDF 
They aren't teaching face "bites" would have been more accurate then they aren't teaching face attacks. It looks like the dog in the
French video was turning his head on most of the hits which leads me to believe he wasn't targeting the face.It seems to me that the proximity of the dogs muzzle to the decoys head was only a consequence of the high body hits.
Nice Malinois in your Crunchfest video


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Joby, I don't have any experience with this type of work but have you seen dogs that are naturally inclined to jam people with their muzzles? That little shit of mine has done that to me more times than I can count. In the eye, mouth, jaw, throat, side of the neck, chest, arms, back, etc.
> 
> I've never really been certain why she does that because it can't feel good on her end as she does it hard enough to leave bruises on me. Obviously, there's no intent on her part to bite when she's doing that. I'm not bringing this up to disclose my obviously unruly snipe but rather to mention that I think she knows that by jamming me like that it activates me. Um, even if I am inclined to punish or subdue her in response to her yard darting me like that.


sure..that in my mind is being pushy with you, like you said activate you...my pup does this as well, but usually when he has something in him mouth that he wants to instigate me to tug with.

I have also seen dogs bump the sleeve with thier muzzle and not open their mouths (usually dobermans) 

I said MOST of the time, because I am quite sure you can train a dog to hit in the muzzle without any aggression what so ever, even on a dog that never does bitework, and that you can also train a dog that does bite work that will hit in a muzzle, and may not be trying to bite a all, if there are clear signals in the work...like some sports possibly..

my statement was more in regards to the police and military dogs,and other serious type dogs, being discussed here, that are trained in bitework, and do muzzle work as well... I doubt that these dogs are playing games...
some muzzles have bite bars in them, to satisfy the dog.

All I can say is, I have had equipment failures while fighting a dog in a muzzle, and the dogs were most certainly trying to bite.

I guess the way we could find out 100% for sure, is to affix a muzzle with NO front on it, and send him..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ha ha, Rick do you really think that I put this little dog in a muzzle (do they even make them that small?) and let her jam on me like that? I meant, she does this without a muzzle with her own muzzle. This is why along with "snipe" she has the nickname of Yard Dart. I was really reflecting upon something Joby said about dogs who did muzzle work were perhaps biting and not using their muzzle in another way.
> 
> Sorry just had to come back to this because I was struck with a funny visual of her in a tiny muzzle. There is no way I'd put a muzzle on her here, I'm sure she'd knock my teeth out or lop out one of my eyes if given the chance.


I got a muzzle for my buddies 38 lb malinois...she hits like a freight train, or I mean a school bus, ok, a short bus....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> Congrats on the sobriety, don't relapse on account of me or the WDF


ok thanks, but too late now 

I think I can even just shut up now 

I agree they are probably not training face bites, but will add that I still think that they are allowing the face to become a focus, and interest to the dog, and that could quite possibly open up the face as potential biting target that may not have even be considered before.

Police dogs bite people in the face, happens more than one might think, I just cant see how targeting the face in a muzzle, would not make this more common, and would not see someone doing it, if the face was not to be bitten, ideally while biting.

Now that I have 1/2 a drink in me, I can even say that it is possible that many dogs that do not have tons of muzzle experience, or never bite people for real, may not be trying to bite on the intial hit. and I did rewatch it closely and see that several of those dogs are just hitting and doing nothing else after that, so I will now eat crow, and admit, you are probably right  it might just be some weird, stupid thing to do for fun....

I would also bet money that if you slap a muzzle on one of those Russian dogs, that he would hit in the face as well.

I also stand by my statements that this is not necessary to get dogs to hit high, and is not a good idea for dogs that bite people for real, that are expected, to not bite the face 

and I can also say that if you wear a bitesuit and take a trained, targeting dog, and get him in a muzzle comfortably and send him, he will hit the same area as his bite target if presented usually.

and dogs that have muzzle failure incidents DO bite people. 

it all depends on what the dogs are being trained for, I say humbly to you now 

and I would also turn my head if I felt like bashing you in your helmet with my face...so those dogs, are most likely not trying to bite the helmet..

I hope this guy does email me back...sorry I got worked up, I am just upset that this damn puppy will not just lay on his damn pillow....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> don't know your style of heeling.


Ah, she doesn't either. About all she knows is how to find things and bite. For the moment, I am satisfied with that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ah, she doesn't either. About all she knows is how to find things and bite. For the moment, I am satisfied with that.


WHAT???? are you ca-ca-ca-craaaaazy?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> WHAT???? are you ca-ca-ca-craaaaazy?


Maybe so, I think I've heard that from someone before.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Maybe so, I think I've heard that from someone before.


how old is this dog/pup?

just so I can gauge what I am doing, my pup is 4 months...

that is my plan,

look for shit, find it, possibly bite it, maybe bring it back to me...and of course dominate it,


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> how old is this dog/pup?


Wasabi will be 12 months old on the 9th.

Ok, so I guess I wasn't entirely truthful. I kinda "trick" train her for my own entertainment, like that puppy article indication I did with her or teaching her to ring a bell to go outside. There's some compliance training as well like sitting and waiting before I open the door or put her food down but we don't really mess about too much with any formal OB for sport type work. If she doesn't eventually find her way into a suitable job I might go down that road with her.

People often wonder why I don't let her loose when I have company. That always makes for good entertainment as I ask the question with a smile on my face and let her loose. By the time she gets put away stuff is knocked over, kids are crying, people have been clawed up and there's a look of relief when the door closes. Oddly, I don't ever get asked that question twice.

Ah well, maybe it really doesn't go like that when she comes out.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Wasabi will be 12 months old on the 9th.
> 
> Ok, so I guess I wasn't entirely truthful. I kinda "trick" train her for my own entertainment, like that puppy article indication I did with her or teaching her to ring a bell to go outside. There's some compliance training as well like sitting and waiting before I open the door or put her food down but we don't really mess about too much with any formal OB for sport type work. If she doesn't eventually find her way into a suitable job I might go down that road with her.
> 
> ...


YEAH... i get it..I finally had to put a stop to the muggin of people...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> YEAH... i get it..I finally had to put a stop to the muggin of people...


Sure, he's probably bigger than her too now. People are way more tolerant of her than they are with the mastiff. Just looking at the mastiff makes some people curl up their lip and draw up their arms like some retard. Like someone stepped in crap and got it all over the Shaw carpet. Wasabi's terribleness seems to bring about laughter and acceptance no matter what crap she manages to draw out out from those devilish upright ears of hers.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Also seen this form of muzzlework in other french dogs but don´t know why they do it. If there is no problem teatching dogs to aim at the face in france it´s one thing, but it seems more effective to target the larger body when the dog is muzzled, instead of trying to hit a small spot like the head that most people are pretty vary of and quickly can manouverd so the dog doesn´t get a KO-blow anyway, if that´s the purpose.
Another french dog doing the same thing, a policedog I believe,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkS7...xt=C31b151dUDOEgsToPDskIxDuTAiBCnTfpxQKw-ugLk


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Finally got a response from the guy that posted the video.

The English was terrible, of course...

by what in France is less striking muzzled reprimanded by the justice and remains effective.

head in training because in reality the dog tends to sometimes strike little lower

is research Efficiency at a single strike that we are looking for is very high, *head is good*.(sorry for my limited English)

I agree..


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> by what in France is less striking muzzled reprimanded by the justice and remains effective.
> 
> head in training because in reality the dog tends to sometimes strike little lower
> 
> is research Efficiency at a single strike that we are looking for is very high, *head is good*.(sorry for my limited English


Sounds pretty much like I said 

"The French video is ON muzzle head targeting, where the dogs body is hitting center mass on the bad guy. I think the goal is to take the bad guy off his feet."


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Sounds pretty much like I said
> 
> "The French video is ON muzzle head targeting, where the dogs body is hitting center mass on the bad guy. I think the goal is to take the bad guy off his feet."


I took it to mean they often send dog in the muzzle, they are looking for 1 hit effectiveness, and that head is good...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I took it to mean they often send dog in the muzzle, they are looking for 1 hit effectiveness, and that head is good...


What he said was legally they have to work dogs in muzzle (no bites) they want a one hit take down and in real life the dogs tend to hit lower then their training target (the head)


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Some dogs do taget the face ore back of the head when doing muzzle work, but we always tryes to work away from that. I do not se the use, and its realy easyer to trick à dog that goes that high. I do it al the time in traning to make them target the body. 

If you ment theth damage of the decoy in muzzle work, that hapens. But if you ment the dogs theth i never seen that.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Ever see those face targeting videos ??? here is one..another one has a Rottweiler and some other dogs....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEKFmUR5TE8&feature=related


Jeeze, where do you find this stuff? That has to hurt even with padding.


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