# PPD Training and proofing



## Chris Viscovich

I am interested in hearing about training and proofing for PPDs. I'll start and feel free to comment, suggest or describe your own philosophy. 

The definition of my PPD is:
1. a family companion pet that is loose in the house and obeys house rules
2. is crate trained for times when necessary, without distress 
3. is able to be left around small active horseplaying children without aggression
4. is suspicious of all people not in the "circle of trust" 
5. ignores/coexists peacefully with other animals inside and out of the house
6. is properly sized to be handled by all family members
7. has enough work drive to be trained effectively
8. is confident and environmentally stable (not skittish)
9. will play with toys without handler aggression and is not excessively possessive(fetch, tug, etc)
10. comes to the door obediently to greet guests
11. is mistaken for a service dog when in public 

PPD specific training includes, but not limited to:
1. Bonding (spending alot of social and relaxing time with family member and friends, in car,on trails, wherever)
2. Obedience (everyday, every opportunity to train, agility, various environments)
3. Protection Training: 
Mostly full suit, as dog is encouraged to find targets of opportunity, not just the arm/sleeve
Situational/scenario based training with additional focus on your common hobbies, locations, how you spend your time and where you have assessed threats (hiking attacked from woods, carjack, home invasion, burglar, ATM withdrawal)
4. Stability training: dog gets worked up and denied the bite; watches other dogs on bite; decoy shows verbal aggression, but no physical aggression, benign decoy behaviors (greeting and shaking hands); at some point the decoys attack and dog is allowed to respond 

PPD behavior should be escalating force:
Level 1: Obedient stare down
Level 2: Bark
Level 3: Bite and retreat when threat is reduced (incapacitated or disengages) 
Level 4: Deployment with call-off and return(Very optional, for very rare PPD situations, as this could cause unwanted liability or undesirable behaviors) 

Proofing should include a combination of unanticipated decoy attacks in various scenarios, use of hidden sleeves, and muzzle only work.

I think that a PPD is a constant work in progress and that the training and proofing cycle is never-ending. The balance between protection skills and bitework need to be maintained, as they perishable. 

Our process: This is our first protection trained dog. We started working with her at age 2 and worked through some of the maturity issues. We were trained as a handler, bonded with and trained under the supervision of professionals (both breeder and trainer) at a remote training facility for 8 months prior to taking her into our home for good. All family members trained to varying degrees. During the 8 month period we had several extended home stays in order to assess areas of improvement that guided our collective training plan. In order to concrete the bonding with the family, we are avoiding exposure to the breeder and trainer for 3 months. We have not performed any bite training yet at my home site (trying to limit stress due to change, and have the dog embrace its home before being called upon for defense of it), but that is planned. In the meantime, we use the tug to work on physical fitness, targeting and "out". Plans are to resume structured protection training in March with goals to start proofing activities at our home by June.

Thanks for reading and looking forward to your comments.


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## Sarah Platts

"is properly sized to be handled by all family members"

For me I guess it depends on what the size of the family members are. This could be a bit of a sweeping gesture if you have a large range of ages in the children. Is the dog suppose to obey them with the same regard as the adults?

This was one reason why I trained my dogs on non-typical search commands. I didn't want the kids "abusing" the dogs with silly or nonsensical searches. Even though I told them not to, they still tried when they thought no one was watching.


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## Chris Viscovich

Sarah,

Know thyself.

"is properly sized to be handled by all family members". 

I believe to be important planning criteria. I expect that my 5ft, 110 lbs wife (with proper training) will be able to train and handle our PPD. Seeing that she is not an especially gifted handler (too big a heart makes her soft) I planned on a dog that was in the 40-60 lbs range, rather than in the 90-110 lbs range. Handler confidence is important to successful training and a dog that can be physically controlled when necessary lends to that. My daughter is 8 years old and of similar petite stature, and while I would not at this time let her handle and command the dog in protection, she can work obedience with the dog in a controlled environment.

The dog will perform the best with the handler that has spent the most time properly training with the dog. 

Even though my daughter is trained and socialized in the use of firearms, I would never just hand her a gun and leave her to make life or death decisions. We have set the course for responsible use and awareness of the seriousness of consequences.

Nor do I want my daughter at this time, armed with a PPD capable of catastrophic damage, without training and understanding. I hope my PPD will be with us for 10 years or more, and within that time my 8 year old will at some time prove that she is ready for the increased responsibility. 

Yes, bigger dogs tend to be more intimidating in general and act as a deterrent. I feel that a smaller focused dog with alertness and intensity can be just as intimidating, especially in well known protective breeds.


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## Sarah Platts

Good deal. Sounds like you have thought things through. Most folks don't. Wish everyone displayed such due diligence.


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## Chris Viscovich

I guess I am reaping the benefits of both military service and current work as an engineer. Lots of planning and thinking about things before actually doing them, LOL.


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## Nicole Stark

LOL, believe it or not that was kind of obvious. I do, of course, mean that as a compliment. Good luck to you and your dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg

WTF?

Is everyone here losing their minds?


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## Lee H Sternberg

WTF?

Is everyone here losing their minds?


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## Meg O'Donovan

Please be especially careful with Expectation #3. Children playing with lots of running, squealing and who knows what else in close quarters with a high-prey dog could be problematic. Adult supervision reduces risk, especially with kids who are not part of the home group (e.g. friends of).
Enjoy your dog.


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## Thomas Barriano

Lee H Sternberg said:


> WTF?
> 
> Is everyone here losing their minds?


I agree with Lee. The totality of your requirements are unreasonable for a dog. However if you pay enough money I'm sure you'll find plenty of breeder/Executive Protection Dog Trainers who'll claim they have just the dog for you :-(


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## Sarah Platts

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Is everyone here losing their minds?


 Didn't you get the memo? Minds are optional. Brains, however, are essential.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Sarah Platts said:


> Didn't you get the memo? Minds are optional. Brains, however, are essential.


I want to put in my order for 10 Lassies and 5 Rings Tin Tins.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I want to put in my order for 10 Lassies and 5 Rings Tin Tins.


Rin TinTins 

Love that dog


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## Meg O'Donovan

Sorry, that will have to be 4 RTT, because I already have one.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Here's one to help fill your order, Lee:

https://www.editorsguild.com/userfiles/image/May-Jun13/Rin-Tin-Tin_1926_1(RGB).jpg


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## Lee H Sternberg

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Here's one to help fill your order, Lee:
> 
> https://www.editorsguild.com/userfiles/image/May-Jun13/Rin-Tin-Tin_1926_1(RGB).jpg


Okay, Okay, throw in 1 zombie to practice one.


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## Chris Viscovich

yeah, yeah, I am sure that everybody new comes here with the same high hopes and thinks that their dog is the best, lacks the commitment to follow through and has no results to show for it.

I get it. There are plenty of people that throw money at all sorts of problems (not just dogs) thinking that if you pay more that it has to be better or perform as advertised. I'll bet most people probably pay their mechanic, accountant or tax advisor more than they should as well. 

I was really looking for constructive expert opinions. If these do not represent adequate goals, then what should be a reasonable expectation?

I would guess that most people don't even set goals, make plans, status and assess progress. I thought that it may be refreshing to guide someone who has desire but lacks the skills.

BTW, Thanks for the additional inspiration! At least this group has a sense of humor.


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## John Ly

do you have any video of this dog?


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## Chris Viscovich

John, I don't have much yet. We have some training videos that we have taken over the past 8 months, that would include obedience, obstacles, agility, and bitework. We are closer to the beginning of our journey than the end. What would be helpful to see? Obedience, toy/tug work, behavior in public places, bitework, hanging around the house, interaction with children and other pets, inclement weather training, hauling/rappelling? Whatever I don't have yet, I'm sure that we could record and post given some time.


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## jim kirkendall

my circle of trust is my wife and I. Never free around small children. I like some "unpredictability" in my dog. People NOTICE!


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## John Ly

Chris Viscovich said:


> John, I don't have much yet. We have some training videos that we have taken over the past 8 months, that would include obedience, obstacles, agility, and bitework. We are closer to the beginning of our journey than the end. What would be helpful to see? Obedience, toy/tug work, behavior in public places, bitework, hanging around the house, interaction with children and other pets, inclement weather training, hauling/rappelling? Whatever I don't have yet, I'm sure that we could record and post given some time.


not looking for a promotional video or anything. ball play, tug, bite work, fetch, obedience etc. its just always nice to put a dog to a screen name.


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## Joby Becker

Chris Viscovich said:


> I am interested in hearing about training and proofing for PPDs. I'll start and feel free to comment, suggest or describe your own philosophy.
> 
> The definition of my PPD is:
> 1. a family companion pet that is loose in the house and obeys house rules
> 2. is crate trained for times when necessary, without distress
> 3. is able to be left around small active horseplaying children without aggression
> 4. is suspicious of all people not in the "circle of trust"
> 5. ignores/coexists peacefully with other animals inside and out of the house
> 6. is properly sized to be handled by all family members
> 7. has enough work drive to be trained effectively
> 8. is confident and environmentally stable (not skittish)
> 9. will play with toys without handler aggression and is not excessively possessive(fetch, tug, etc)
> 10. comes to the door obediently to greet guests
> 11. is mistaken for a service dog when in public
> 
> PPD specific training includes, but not limited to:
> 1. Bonding (spending alot of social and relaxing time with family member and friends, in car,on trails, wherever)
> 2. Obedience (everyday, every opportunity to train, agility, various environments)
> 3. Protection Training:
> Mostly full suit, as dog is encouraged to find targets of opportunity, not just the arm/sleeve
> Situational/scenario based training with additional focus on your common hobbies, locations, how you spend your time and where you have assessed threats (hiking attacked from woods, carjack, home invasion, burglar, ATM withdrawal)
> 4. Stability training: dog gets worked up and denied the bite; watches other dogs on bite; decoy shows verbal aggression, but no physical aggression, benign decoy behaviors (greeting and shaking hands); at some point the decoys attack and dog is allowed to respond
> 
> PPD behavior should be escalating force:
> Level 1: Obedient stare down
> Level 2: Bark
> Level 3: Bite and retreat when threat is reduced (incapacitated or disengages)
> Level 4: Deployment with call-off and return(Very optional, for very rare PPD situations, as this could cause unwanted liability or undesirable behaviors)
> 
> Proofing should include a combination of unanticipated decoy attacks in various scenarios, use of hidden sleeves, and muzzle only work.
> 
> I think that a PPD is a constant work in progress and that the training and proofing cycle is never-ending. The balance between protection skills and bitework need to be maintained, as they perishable.
> 
> Our process: This is our first protection trained dog. We started working with her at age 2 and worked through some of the maturity issues. We were trained as a handler, bonded with and trained under the supervision of professionals (both breeder and trainer) at a remote training facility for 8 months prior to taking her into our home for good. All family members trained to varying degrees. During the 8 month period we had several extended home stays in order to assess areas of improvement that guided our collective training plan. In order to concrete the bonding with the family, we are avoiding exposure to the breeder and trainer for 3 months. We have not performed any bite training yet at my home site (trying to limit stress due to change, and have the dog embrace its home before being called upon for defense of it), but that is planned. In the meantime, we use the tug to work on physical fitness, targeting and "out". Plans are to resume structured protection training in March with goals to start proofing activities at our home by June.
> 
> Thanks for reading and looking forward to your comments.


I can get behind most of this if these are your goals. I think PPD is what each individual wants and requires. in regards to the type of dog, and the training that goes into it...

for a dog that I truly thought might be used for real protection that would involve fighting and biting, my requirements are weighted very heavily on the "dog" side of the equation first, as opposed to the training side, which comes 2nd.

if a dog doesn't have what I want or need, I cannot put it in there, regardless of how much I train it.

Heart / Courage is high atop the list of "dog requirements".

I decoyed for 100's of dogs at "PP Competitions" of all different breeds and levels of training. As the decoy I liked a very small % of the dogs (as far as me wanting to own them personally, even though many were far better trained than most of the dogs I have owned. They lacked in things you cannot train..

as far as suspicion, I dont mind a dog that is not suspicious to outsiders, personally, have owned all types, from lovers to straight assholes, you can TRAIN suspicion, or "readiness" or whatever suits your needs very easily most times (with a good strong dog). 

are all the little children rough housing around the dog your immediate family? or does the circle of trust extend to all children?


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## Chris Viscovich

#3 was poorly stated. I just don't want the dog to bite my daughter while the dog is loose in the house (with adult supervision). I just thought "good with children" is a bit overused.

You have keyed in on an important distinction. Let me further clarify my free around kids statement: I do not intend to crate the dog when my daughter's close friends come to play and watch movies in our house (with adult supervision). Outside in the yard would be completely supervised with additional attention due to greater range of unexpected influencers. 

I did not intend that statement to mean going to the local elementary school and release her into the playground and watch what happens.


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## Chris Viscovich

John Ly said:


> not looking for a promotional video or anything. ball play, tug, bite work, fetch, obedience etc. its just always nice to put a dog to a screen name.


For sure I can make some video available.


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## Chris Viscovich

Aggression towards any children (mine or not) is highly and forcefully discouraged.


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## Bob Scott

Even though I "believe" my two GSDS are very safe with my grand kids yet they are never alone together.
One of my GSDs can be and is a serious dog yet my almost 9yr old grand son has been able to handle him since he, grandson, was 5 or 6 yrs old. 

He's better then anyone besides me and that includes my wife and grown kids. 

Again, never alone together even though both dogs show great affection to the gkids.


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## jack van strien

did i get this right?You have an 8 year old daughter with firearms training?


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## Sarah Platts

jack van strien said:


> did i get this right?You have an 8 year old daughter with firearms training?


Nothing unusual with that. I was so small when my dad started me that I couldn't even lift the rifle. The end of the barrel was balanced on the top of a jeri can with me hunkered down behind it (prob 4-5yo). Shotguns started around age 9-10. Hand guns began once we had better strength control and could actually hold one up at arm's length and control the recoil. My birthday present at 13-14 was a sweet .380 of my own.


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## Chris Viscovich

While I fail to see the relevance to the topic, 
Sir, I live in Alabama..she is a bit of a late bloomer with the .22 bolt action.


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## Jim Leon

That is a tall list of requirements, but can be attained with the right dog and the right training.

Best advice I can give is to find the best TRAINING decoy you can get to regularly and start a program with him with all those goals in mind.

A knowledgeable decoy can read your dog and turn on the prey or defense drive as needed to condition the dogs reaction to a situation.

The comment made earlier, that the training of a PPD is a life long process holds true in my opinion.
As his training progresses he will only get better and better at his work.

Perhaps some others on here that are more expert in the field can share their knowledge.


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## Jim Leon

Also meant to ask, did you start your daughters training with a scope or open sights?


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## rick smith

Jim

- when i read his definitions list, i didn't consider it tall at all 
- i just saw it as someone who recognized the reality of the "family" part of family protection and listed a lot of situations that are not often discussed when PPD training comes up 
- maybe why Lassie and RTT came to mind for some members //lol//

- actually i was more surprised that a "dog who will engage, bite and fight" was not listed //lol//

but if you feel that finding a decoy who can turn on/off prey/defense is the key element of PPD training and proofing i would like to explain that to Chris. have you done it that way ?
- the prey vs defense aspect is interesting and NOT off topic. youtube has thousands of so called decoys putting excessive pressure on a dog to get it to bite :-( .... i'll bet some are from people claiming to be PPD trainers :-(

back to the list ....
- it makes extremely good sense to me that how the dog acts in and around family and non threats is more important than the decoy and bite work since a PPD will spend 99.99% of its life in that environment, right ???

as far as bite work, of COURSE the dog should be willing and able to engage and bite when necessary, but i think a PPD needs a different type of bite work training compared to sport dogs, and psd's/mwd's, etc
- but i'm sure you also know that even PSD's and MWD's do not always bring it when they actually meet a real threat in real life ?
---- i don't know about PSD's but it does happen with MWD's 

i'm with Joby regarding the importance of how much fight and spirit i would want in a dog that had to protect my life or family. 
- i would prefer getting a pup for my family PPD, (if i had a family and wanted one), but on the flip side, the younger you get the dog more difficult it might be to see, and you might not be able to know for sure for a couple years. that could be a big investment assuming you were buying from a respected breeder and not trying to work with a pound puppy or freebie from a friend, etc
- a recent thread about how pups turned out is a good example

* btw
....don't go away Joby !!
- i'd like to know if u have known PPD breeders or trainers who have shown you a well laid out program to train and proof a family PPD that would fit Chris's requirements

for anyone with experience :
in terms of sport work, is PSA a good foundation for a PPD ?
- a good "off duty" sport for a PPD ?
- apples and oranges ?

hope the discussion keeps going. never read a thorough discussion of the subject in terms of training and proofing
- seen nice bite work vids of carjacking and home break ins, but never seen PPD proofing around a family picnic or when parking the family car at a beach area and getting jumped, etc
- not sure how you would train an ATM mugging unless you set it up very well. but after the training it would think it would be even harder to proof it

* also hope some LEOs weigh in. i think they could contribute some scenarios based on their experience when people have become victims when a well trained PPD would have assisted them.
- i've talked with local cops about this subject and they are DEAD AGAINST it, but they have a mindset that is vastly different from stateside LEOs 

TX again for starting it
hope you have only scratched the surface !


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## Chris Viscovich

Jim, Thanks for the inputs. I think that we have a great primary decoy and a strong set of secondaries who support and learn from our primary. He is 4 hours away, but well worth the trip. We have been making the trip almost every-other weekend for a half day of decoy training. I'll have to take quality over quantity for now.

Also, in regards to firearms training, I always start a new student (adult or child) or a new weapon with iron/open sights and move to scopes, red dots, holographics, and lasers later in the training. Anything that can fail probably will and you are left to shoot with the irons alone. Irons typically retain a good boresight once set, and you should make the first shot count.

Rick, it's funny that before I read your post today, I was thinking in the car on the way to work about identifying defensive vs. aggressive biting. When is a dog biting in self-defense or in defense of its handler vs. I just got the green light to have some bite fun until stopped? 

My PPD is/will-be trained to and expected to bite when called upon.

I worked on a video last night that shows us training, goofing off and early bitework. She wasn't started until age 2, but took to it very naturally.I'll export the video tonight and share.
I have thought about participation in bite sports, and am personally concerned that it would not establish the right biting cues. I am interested in hearing from people that are doing it or have done it in the past. 

We are involved in the local canine scene in town and have started to establish a good relationship with the local PD K9. I am trying to coordinate for them to have access to my decoy and their support for some proofing activities around town.


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## Nick Hrycaj

"Rick, it's funny that before I read your post today, I was thinking in the car on the way to work about identifying defensive vs. aggressive biting. When is a dog biting in self-defense or in defense of its handler vs. I just got the green light to have some bite fun until stopped? My PPD is/will-be trained to and expected to bite when called upon."

I would look into aggression theories more. The dog being told To go bite does not make it an automatically prey driven bite. Ex. The decoy charging down the field/street/wherever. This situation is apt to be present some pressure/ illicit defense depending on specific dog and decoys actions. Sounds to me that you want to present your bites in a way where it is obedience to the command vs dog's autonomous decision to tag someone? How do you define a trained dog's bite, specifically ppd? You mention defensive vs. aggressive - i argue that aspects of ripping someone's flesh up with teeth is both


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## Gillian Schuler

Lee H Sternberg said:


> WTF?
> 
> Is everyone here losing their minds?


I daren't say that I used to keep "protection" dogs that weighed nearly twice my weight. It's not the size of the dog that counts, its the size of the heart of the owner!!!


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## rick smith

regarding the specific training levels :
level one ...

assuming this is different from a "watch" or "look" (eye contact with the handler), 

-- how did you train it and how did you proof it ?

when u say "escalating", i'm assuming this is the first level of defense. meaning having the dog stare at a (bad guy?) threat to use "minimal force" and prevent it from escalating ?

if my assumptions are off base, please set me straight.


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## Chris Viscovich

Nick, I think that the obedience part is holding the dog relatively close to the handler so it does not advance on a threat unless specifically deployed. I imagine a bubble around the handler and dog, that if broken through aggressive actions would allow the dog to react autonomously or without command. In real world situation a handler/victim may not be able to command their dog. 

The endstate of the bite ripping flesh may be the same, but trying to understand how the dog got there should help us train a particular dog.

Gilliian, Kudos to you and your handling skills.

Rick, 
I think level one, the watch, is probably difficult to train in dogs that don't have innate alertness. We use the "watch" command and try to reinforce with verbal praise, but the real reward is the eventual bite.

I also use the watch command when I have my back turned and exposed, like unlocking the front door. The dog sits, faces opposite me and outward at a state of alertness. I glance back and see what she is watching, reinforcing awareness and discouraging looking at me or the front door. I have yet to introduce a threat/decoy and see how she reacts, but that will be in the works. We at least have a threatening body position and alertness working for us.

There is probably a level 0 and that is just having a dog with you probably makes people think twice.
I think that an intense dog , under the control of its owner staring at me is a serious deterrent to invading someones space.

For Level 2: My dog does not bark (even when my other dogs do) which is good for everyday living , but not so great for protection. Unless the decoy is present, then it is hard to get her to stop.


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## Jim Leon

Rick
I have worked my PPD with a decoy regularly since I first got her, going on four yrs., at least once a week. 
I'm not clear if you were asking me to explain to Chris the prey/defense dynamic during decoy work or if you were going to explain it. I'm not experienced enough to break it down.
My advice for working with a decoy is meant as a sound approach to achieving the goals, not as the be-all end-all of PPD training. Would you disagree with that?
And Thanks for sharing your knowledge here.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Chris Viscovich said:


> N
> There is probably a level 0 and that is just having a dog with you probably makes people think twice.
> I think that an intense dog , under the control of its owner staring at me is a serious deterrent to invading someones space.


I would agree that should PROBABLY be the outcome with a logical/sober person. unfortunately real world situations wherein the dog is useful, we tend not to be dealing with either. My street dog found billy bad guy last week and the guy continually refused commands even after i made the dog bark as another show of force. He told me afterwards the barking didnt scare him. From there i guess its proof about tools in the tool box because if your guy won't back down or mine won't surrender, the dog is expected to bite.

I agree with the obedience and demand that aggression come out on your terms. As to autonomy, with law enforcement 'handler protection' as they call it where the dog engages to protect handler without a specific command (he is too busy in a Fight/ incapacitated), there is a camp that is against this as it allows the dog the chance to incorrectly read the situation and possibly have a bad bite. if you are comfortable with your training and proofing of borderline scenarios then kudos!

PPD wise with autonomy i worry that your watching your back at the door scenario is dangerous in a non threatening case like a neighbor running up to talk to you for whatever reason. Maybe thats a misguided concern of mine. To each our own...


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## rick smith

re : "My advice for working with a decoy is meant as a sound approach to achieving the goals, not as the be-all end-all of PPD training. Would you disagree with that?"

... not in the least. i just took your literally ... too much i guess 
YES, i agree with your advice 

however .... i hope this thread focuses on specific training and proofing of Chris's PPD and doesn't get lost in theoretical discussions of PPD's

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

re: the level one "stare"
not that it matters, but i have a VERY alert dog ... too alert. 
- which has required me to control him from doing it because it scares people in public, even when the stare is not aggressive....because average people on the street don't understand dogs.
- so i would probably be a bad resource to use if i suggested how i would train it 

but my biggest problem is that if i encountered a "threat" i would find it difficult to direct WHERE the dog should stare without physically bringing the dog next to me in a close heel and "show" it the direction, etc
....when not next to me : maybe use a verbal and a hand signal ??.... don't know how and haven't thought it out

but i could also list quite a few common real world situations where this would be a problem to train and/or proof unless the dog was on a close lead and next to me and i don't think that would be the case in many "PPD needed situations"

i've never trained it but can see a use .... that's why i asked that Q 

- i could suggest other workaround commands that might accomplish the same result (deescalate a low level threat) but it's not my thread and i don't have a PPD, etc


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## rick smith

funny anecdote....
it's the "new year" season here

tonight i was sitting on a bench in front of Micky D with my house dog. a group of 6-7 chinese tourists came out. my dog immediately stood up and alerted at them. he had never heard chinese being spoken that close and it has a very unique sound compared to english or japanese. he was clearly interested in the sounds they're making ... all the tourists noticed it and a couple got nervous since they had seen him stand up, whip around and stay on all fours, etc. they were at a distance so i just let him get on with it and watched
- when he alerts his ear set goes WAY forward, mouth closes and the stare is intense
- when i explained what was happening they started laffing, and that had an immediate effect. he relaxed and all was good. glad they understood japanese 

- i guess it was a good example that laughter is a universal language and even understood by dogs.....cause he isn't that intelligent


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## Nicole Stark

rick smith said:


> funny anecdote....
> it's the "new year" season here
> 
> i guess it was a good example that laughter is a universal language and even understood by dogs.....cause he isn't that intelligent


KUNG HEI FAT CHOY!

BTW laughter is the shortest distance between two people… and apparently a domesticated dog too.


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## Joby Becker

PPD behavior in escalating force?

is this all on command? or the dog is expected to moderate/escalate on its own?


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## John Michaels

Chris Viscovich said:


> The definition of my PPD is:
> 1. a family companion pet that is loose in the house and obeys house rules
> 2. is crate trained for times when necessary, without distress
> 3. is able to be left around small active horseplaying children without aggression
> 4. is suspicious of all people not in the "circle of trust"
> 5. ignores/coexists peacefully with other animals inside and out of the house
> 6. is properly sized to be handled by all family members
> 7. has enough work drive to be trained effectively
> 8. is confident and environmentally stable (not skittish)
> 9. will play with toys without handler aggression and is not excessively possessive(fetch, tug, etc)
> 10. comes to the door obediently to greet guests
> 11. is mistaken for a service dog when in public
> .


Great thread Chris, this is what I am after as well and would ove to hear any sugestions and training tips on this topic. 

I think this video gives a good layman's image of what I am looking for in my dog:

http://norcalk9.com/services/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNuHJLHt2L8


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## Chris Viscovich

I would suggest that the dog escalates to bark without verbal command and the handler would use hush if it were inappropriate. 
Either dog would escalate to the bite once a perimeter had been breached aggressively or handler can escalate to short deployment using command and slack leash depending on circumstance. Deployment could be effective or serve as a distraction for armed assailant while handler arms themselves.


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## Chris Viscovich

John, 

I would be happy to share the information that I gathered before moving forward: companies, costs, breed/gender, training programs, and describe our process, timeline and current results (to include focused areas of improvement). My Mal exhibits similar behaviors as the one in the video to a lesser degree, and I would not leave my dog off leash outside of a business. I feel comfortable bringing my dog into any sort of business or restaurant (indoor or outdoor). Whenever I need to go hands free I attach the leash to a carabiner on my belt to keep "positive control".


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## Chris Viscovich

This is an example from a training day about 3 months into our training together, we had only spent about 14 intense training days together before this video, and I knew very little about dog handling. Its about 15 minutes and bitework starts at around 9:15 if that is all you may be interested in.

In October, we competed in a friendly K9 competition against about 20 other teams and rocked it. We can now run across the bridge together near a sprint even with other folks working it at the same time. I'll post segments from the competition if anyone is interested.
At the very end of the video was some goofing off in our backyard on Valentines day. 
Enjoy meeting Shadow!
 
http://youtu.be/PuDr_a9p-xE


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## Nicole Stark

Thanks for posting this. Did your dog come from the group that you are training with? I'd like to see the video of the competition.


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## Chris Viscovich

Yes, she was and in-house dog that was bred, lived and trained at Liberty K9. We are like a part of their family now.


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## John Ly

very good stuff! they seem like a legit place that understands what they're doing for ppd.

nice looking dog. good solid nerves. i dont like the dog letting go so much but what do i know. internet experts can pick apart any video so gotta have thick skin =)


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## Chris Viscovich

John,

She bites deeper, longer and targets more now (6 months later). During competition she took top honors with a groin shot, exposed back in the break of the suit and walked the sleeve and got the hand. We do tug work for targeting and endurance about every third day.


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## Bob Scott

Note how her attitude came way up when you were "just having fun in the back yard". 

Why not train "just having fun" when it comes to obedience?! 

Once the dog realizes being with you is a good thing then corrections can refine the work and much less will be needed once the dog realizes how easy it is AND rewardable when she complies.


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## Chris Viscovich

Bob, 
It just shows how much we have grown in the last 6 months. I better understand how to read her and create energy or depress overdrive, sort of a balancing act using movement, tone of voice, and types of activities. She respects and trusts me alot more after spending the last two months living together which pays huge dividends in everything we do. 
I try to combine obedience and fun into almost everything we do, from daily agility walks , to fetch, to obstacle course work and around the house. Play, praise and physical touch are high value rewards for her, so I love to use them to our advantage.


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## Nicole Stark

That's a good point about how much may have changed in the past 6 months. It's part of the reason why I was interested in seeing how things looked in the competition. I couldn't put my finger on it but I wondered if maybe the dog didn't initially live with you from a pup on up or if you got her as a pup that someone else had worked with her (as in she was out of the home for a period of time) or something. Also, I am curious, to your knowledge has she ever experienced a rear leg injury?


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## Joby Becker

any videos of current biting?


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## Chris Viscovich

Nicole, That is right, she was raised by someone else, we only entered her life at age two and took her into our home at 2 and three quarters.
I don't know about any leg injuries, but can ask. Does something look off to you in the rear legs?

Joby, until next month current tug work would be the best video that I can offer. I will be sure to post decoy work when next available, we will do a combination of some onsite and public work.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Chris, nice video, cool agility course! With bite work do you still currently do back pressure on prong collar? And outs: still the yank backwards?


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## rick smith

looks like a nice facility
O-course is Xlnt 
and i liked the bite work
decoys know what they are doing
the dog looks like it is coming along in terms of confidence building, agility and handler bond etc. 

i realise the importance of this, but hope the PPD specific training will be discussed too

how much of the 8 month boarding was used to build up the social, environmental and PPD "people" skills that you listed in your definitions as compared to the agility and bite work shown in the video ?
- i was assuming they would be trained together to build the foundations together

that's why my first Q was about specifically teaching the stare. hope it didn't get lost in the shuffle. 

i know alertness is to a large degree instinctual, but i am also a firm believer in teaching reliable behaviours that can be taught and proofed. that a dog will respond to in any situation
- i would see no reason why that behavior couldn't be taught and proofed early on in the overall training cycle

this is where i see the difference between teaching PPD skills as opposed to sport work, SAR, or PSD/MWD related patrol or detection jobs


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## rick smith

- i always get very envious when i see these large facilities devoted to dogs 

fields, streams, bridges, large A/O courses, etc

we have a lot of green rural areas but it's all privately owned and access can be a pita sometimes

how much of the customer base is PPD compared to other training ?

how are the creature comforts .... and the food ???? //lol//

i'll bet this isn't cheap but as long as you get what you pay for .....


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## Catherine Gervin

Chris Viscovich said:


> T
> 
> 
> Enjoy meeting Shadow!
> 
> http://youtu.be/PuDr_a9p-xE


this was incredible! the course is phenomenal and your dog had her big tired tongue out but she kept on going and going--great looking animal! she totally trusted you to take her down the slide and everything--and this was before she'd been living with you?! you must be very pleased.


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## Chris Viscovich

rick smith said:


> looks like a nice facility
> O-course is Xlnt
> and i liked the bite work
> decoys know what they are doing
> the dog looks like it is coming along in terms of confidence building, agility and handler bond etc.
> 
> i realise the importance of this, but hope the PPD specific training will be discussed too
> 
> how much of the 8 month boarding was used to build up the social, environmental and PPD "people" skills that you listed in your definitions as compared to the agility and bite work shown in the video ?
> - i was assuming they would be trained together to build the foundations together
> 
> that's why my first Q was about specifically teaching the stare. hope it didn't get lost in the shuffle.
> 
> i know alertness is to a large degree instinctual, but i am also a firm believer in teaching reliable behaviours that can be taught and proofed. that a dog will respond to in any situation
> - i would see no reason why that behavior couldn't be taught and proofed early on in the overall training cycle
> 
> this is where i see the difference between teaching PPD skills as opposed to sport work, SAR, or PSD/MWD related patrol or detection jobs


Rick, First of all, thanks. Now to the questions.
Most of the foundational training that they do with all of their dogs can apply to dogs that end up doing police, show, service or PPD. When she was selected by us to be our PPD, we created a more specific plan based on our lives and her anticipated role in our lives. 

I would say 50% of the training was agility/bite and the other 50% were defined specific areas of focus (in no specific order). Where possible, these were trained together.

1. Reinforcement of house rules
2. Indoor environmentals (vaccuum cleaner, close quarters horseplay)
3. Use of indoor crate 
4. Cat, small animal and Horse socialization 
5. exposure to fire, smoke, fireworks and firearms
6. Car/ store trips
7. Heeling and Recalls 
8. Toy possessiveness 
9. Detection 
10. Tracking

They do have a great facility in my opinion. It is family owned property (consisting of many acres of varied land), they have innovative ways to use industrial throwaway junk to create a pretty impressive obstacle course, and they have built themselves a small cabin by the lake for guests to bond and train with their dogs.

I think that the customer base for buying dogs and training is 70% PPD, 20% Police/MWD and 10% service/show dogs.
The training that they do onsite is:
1. in-house obedience for puppies and dog-owner obedience problems
2. weekly PPD training 
3. monthly specialty training for Tracking and Detection 

Creature comforts:
I camped onsite often, was welcomed into their home and was provided home cooked meals.
For the dogs, they use their home with a combination of indoor and outdoor kennels.
Food is a combination of kibble with raw meat and eggs.

The total cost was less than a third of the costs folks usually joke about for "Executive Protection Dogs". When you consider that my family was also trained, several in-home visits and making a lifelong family friendship with the nicest people you could ever know, this experience (and I call it that) has been worth many times what we paid.


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## Chris Viscovich

Catherine Gervin said:


> this was incredible! the course is phenomenal and your dog had her big tired tongue out but she kept on going and going--great looking animal! she totally trusted you to take her down the slide and everything--and this was before she'd been living with you?! you must be very pleased.


Catherine, Thanks for checking us out. I think that all of that training was accomplished in 1 long training day (12 hours) with bitework at the tail end. She has the stamina to go the distance. Shadow was very bonded to the trainers/breeders having been raised for two years with them. She is mostly suspicious and serious, but opened up to my family pretty quickly. 
I took bonding very seriously and my attitude was that I would not ask the dog to do what I was unwilling to do myself (military leadership 101). I even slept outside in the rain and mud with her to show her that I am also tough as nails. When it rains, she is so excited to train, that she brings me her own leash and off we go. Because of this we moved very quickly to high stress/high trust/high payoff training. 

I am super pleased with Shadow and our progress this far. While I evaluate with a critical mind and constantly find ways to be better, I also actively celebrate the small stuff.


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## Chris Viscovich

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Chris, nice video, cool agility course! With bite work do you still currently do back pressure on prong collar? And outs: still the yank backwards?


Nick, 
In the video we were obviously both very "green".
Now we coordinate and set objectives with the decoy prior to the start, perform an after-action review between sets and a final review at the end. Our decoy knows our dog well and leads us. We start almost all of our training with a back tie, during which time we reinforce the "watch-it" on the approach. During handled bitework we still use a combination of back pressure on the prong and flat. During sessions he and other trainers will evaluate and call out changes in our leash control and pressure if we are slow to make adjustment on our own. We are still using back pressure to build frustration and deeper bites. For outs, we do still yank the prong backwards more often then a pull-off (which is more for emergencies). I understand that some handlers push the dog into the bite to get the out, but we have not tried that. I have been using tugs and toys (for her high value) to work the out command, without any leash. We plan to work on transitioning this to bitework, so the command itself may be enough someday. I have my reservations that in a live bite situation that a command would be enough, and it would likely be a combination of verbal and physical coercion to get the out .


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## Joby Becker

Chris Viscovich said:


> Nicole, That is right, she was raised by someone else, we only entered her life at age two and took her into our home at 2 and three quarters.
> I don't know about any leg injuries, but can ask. Does something look off to you in the rear legs?
> 
> Joby, until next month current tug work would be the best video that I can offer. I will be sure to post decoy work when next available, we will do a combination of some onsite and public work.


muzzle work? hidden work? that should start early in a PPD training career.. in my opinion..


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## Chris Viscovich

Joby, 

Our trainers didn't think she was ready yet. We will introduce and use those tools starting this summer.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Green is a long term state of being I am coming to find out. I came to this forum mostly because I needed clarification from old pros on some lessons learned via trainers before them or the school of hard knocks. It's worked for that.

Sounds like you are very invested and have resesrched a combo of skills: commendable. Everyone's past/ environment for training and deployment/ specific dog dramatically change the training mentality they must have. I certainly suggest looking into the correction into the bite method you eluded to and having a seperate lead to flat collar for back pressure but if you're getting results your way, don't confuse yourself or dog on my behalf.

Where is that training facility?


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## Jim Leon

I don't understand the bite work where the decoy was switching arms and the dog was switching the bite from one arm to the other. Is that what I was seeing? The decoy had his back to the camera and that's what it looked like to me.
The way you're describing the back pressure work is good sound training.
What a pleasure to see a handler working as hard as you are alongside your dog.
That's a great way to bond. Letting the dog know you're right there with him in the fight. It builds his confidence in both of you.
Is the dog being trained for specific targets right now...or to just go for whatever she can get?


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## rick smith

since you have already shown it ...

please explain the PPD specific training steps (planned and accomplished) that are or will be involved with PPD bite work from inside the car. 
- what stage would the video clip drill fit into ?

* please be as specific as you have been when listing all the other related (environmental, social, etc) PPD related training you are doing and have done.

what i saw would have been a good test to see if Shadow would bite from inside a car. she did ... she passed the test with flying colors. but i also suspect she had done that with the trainer before and that was not a first time event for her, so it was likely NOT a "test" 

don't get me wrong. i LIKE watching bite work. but one of the main reasons i'm here is because i want to learn about the specifics of a PPD training program; especially if it is set up and coordinated by a legitimate PPD training facility with credibility. 
- the training and proofing

so far the only bite work that seems specifically related to a PPD program is not trying to force her to focus on and target one area on the body. 

if you want more specific Q's related to this i can ask some.

TIA


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## David C DeSimone

Joby Becker said:


> I can get behind most of this if these are your goals. I think PPD is what each individual wants and requires. in regards to the type of dog, and the training that goes into it...
> 
> for a dog that I truly thought might be used for real protection that would involve fighting and biting, my requirements are weighted very heavily on the "dog" side of the equation first, as opposed to the training side, which comes 2nd.
> 
> if a dog doesn't have what I want or need, I cannot put it in there, regardless of how much I train it.
> 
> Heart / Courage is high atop the list of "dog requirements".
> 
> I decoyed for 100's of dogs at "PP Competitions" of all different breeds and levels of training. As the decoy I liked a very small % of the dogs (as far as me wanting to own them personally, even though many were far better trained than most of the dogs I have owned. They lacked in things you cannot train..
> 
> as far as suspicion, I dont mind a dog that is not suspicious to outsiders, personally, have owned all types, from lovers to straight assholes, you can TRAIN suspicion, or "readiness" or whatever suits your needs very easily most times (with a good strong dog).
> 
> are all the little children rough housing around the dog your immediate family? or does the circle of trust extend to all children?


Good post! There are many good dogs out there but as you have learned you can't train courage!

At my age and where I'm at as a trainer that's the only dog I want to work. 

Back to the OP my dogs are never allowed around anyone unsupervised not because of they lack control. Because all dogs bite period. My dogs don't socialize with other dogs and have always been separated after 8 weeks. This is a Davidism so take it with a grain of salt. One caveat I need to mention, I have 3 pups from my current litter and at times due to health readons have broken protocol. This will soon cease and desist.


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## Chris Viscovich

Nick, Liberty K9 in Hawesville, KY.

Jim, The arm switching happened at the last session of the day before we called it quits. We had been working on and off for about 12 hours at that point and bunch of bitework. She was obviously losing focus and stamina at this point. The decoy was using the rapid arm movement to draw out any remaining prey drive. I wanted to show the totallity of bitework: the good, the bad and the ugly, as it doesn't benefit anyone to just show the highlights reel.

Rick, 
The carjack scenario was being performed for the first time and was never rehearsed. You are exactly right that we were looking for indications that she would bite from a car, or identifying what problems she may have to feed into the training plan. We only caught a small segment on film, but the decoy alternated sides forcing Shadow to attack through both the passenger window and then on my lap out the driver window (which was intense). Since we were in a truck with bad visibility Shadow started using the mirrors to track the decoy to the open windows. 

We do not specify targets, the dog selects whatever the decoy presents (intentionally or inadvertently). Now I see what you are after, specific discriminators of PPD training. Seeing that I have no direct experience but my own, I will leave the heavy lifting of this task to the experts.

Let me make it clear that a proofed PPD dog is not what I contracted for. I wanted to be a direct part of shaping the training that leads to proofing, by selecting a dog that has potential and basic training to build upon, I will take all of the time I need to build and proof the behaviors.


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## rick smith

re: "We had been working on and off for about 12 hours at that point and bunch of bitework. She was obviously losing focus and stamina at this point. The decoy was using the rapid arm movement to draw out any remaining prey drive" 

unless the dog will be running marathons i don't see the benefit of this TRAINING approach....especially the part about trying "to draw out any remaining prey drive"
- the trainer obviously feels different, so please ask their reason next time you hook up 

training wise, the old worn out phrase "quit when they want more" has worked the best for me 
- and please don't confuse this training comment with "physical conditioning" which imo is a better way to see how much gas they got in the tank 
.......but it's just an opinion and we all have at least one //lol//

Chris 
i guess i didn't communicate my thoughts clearly ... i'll try and rephrase it again later...right now we aren't on the same page


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## Chris Viscovich

Rick, 

Point taken. Seeing that we have limited time to work with the decoy, we always try to fit in what we can. That was a long day, but not representative of the majority of our training days. 

I am concerned about endurance, I run x-country ultra races and she will train with me. A regular training run will be between 16-20 miles and last 3-4 hours. Cross training is good, but we are specifically running for distance to work on this.

PPD Car protection training phase
Prerequisite: The dog understands a decoy as a threat and has actively bitten
1. Define specific requirements/constraints in detail based on owner/dog (Example)
Case 1:Owner remains in vehicle
-Dog will be unrestrained in backseat, has access and ability to enter front seats to engage. 
-Dog will not bite unless commanded
-Dog will engage only enemy body parts that enter vehicle crewspace 
-Dog will not exit the vehicle to engage or pursue
Case 2: Owner exits vehicle (pulled, forced or and calls to dog
-Dog exits vehicle 
-Dog comes to Owner
-Dog performs per assault scenario rules of engagement

Difficulty levels: 
Easy: Decoy in suit 
Moderate : Hidden sleeve
Hard: Muzzle

Where we are now: Dog has met prerequisite. Case 1 assessed with leash and no leash at easy level (decoy in suit). Dog remains in vehicle for suited decoy. Dog bite quality assessed as adequate. Case 2 not assessed.

Next steps: Assess Case 2 easy level. Practice Case 1 easy level. Assess Case 1 Moderate level. 

Maybe this is closer to the structured approach, you were looking to explore.


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## rick smith

Tx Chris 
that's what i was getting at
100% pure beef //lol//


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## Jim Leon

Chris...from the looks of her Shadow is what I would call a strong dog. She enters with determination, grips directly and doesn't come off. You have a good foundation there for a PPD. From the training you've shown, my concerns would be that there is not enough time spent on completely developing the skills you want your dog to have. For example, the random targeting, although your goal is a dog that will hit anywhere in a situation, the dog should be thoroughly trained as to how to hit each place. If she's going to take a forearm she should be trained where the best, most effective place is to hit on the forearm. Same holds for any other target area. I can understand that driving from Alabama to Kentucky for training, you want to get in as much as you can, but there's nothing wrong with working on one exercise only until the technique is perfected.


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## rick smith

Jim

re : "She enters with determination, grips directly and doesn't come off."
-- you consider that a foundation 

re : "the dog should be thoroughly trained as to how to hit each place. If she's going to take a forearm she should be trained where the best, most effective place is to hit on the forearm" 
-- can you give an example of why you consider this degree of targeting necessary for a PPD ?

specifically, how would you train it and how would you proof it ?

hypothetical examples :
- would you correct her if she missed what you consider the best target and restart the drill ? wouldn't that require taking her off the bite ?
- or are you suggesting you place her on the bite, KNPV style 
.... i see a downside to both of those but there must be other ways i haven't thought of 

....sorry, i get the logic but not the technique; please expand


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## Nicole Stark

Chris, I was wondering. 

Sounds like you guys have looked at things from every possible angle. Not to sound morbid, but what's the plan should the handler become incapacitated and cannot command the dog? You know, like a possible walk up and bang you're dead or being shot well enough you no longer can fend for yourself or reach for your weapon if you happen to carry. 

Sounds foolish to ask I suppose, except I know you like to run with your dog - probably in remote places at times, maybe not. People are motivated to commit acts/crimes I don't understand. A lot of them do weird stuff and don't even give it a second thought. 

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/12/11/177022/israel-keyes-targeted-couple-on.html

I'm still hoping to see your competition video. It sounded interesting, but more importantly I'm interested in seeing how you two worked together after bonding and additional training time had taken place.


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## Jim Leon

Re targeting; wanting my PPD to effectively incapacitate an aggressor as quickly as possible requires him to be willing to go deeper into the man than just going for an extremity, i.e. deep into a bicep or into the groin, as opposed to low on the forearm or the calf. 
Here is my attempt to clarify, a PPD as opposed to a PSD should have no idea of self preservation in a fight. The dog, when commanded to attack, should go in with the intention to hurt the man enough to take him to the ground where he can control him. 
A PSD goal may be to apprehend the man, to hold him in place. In that situation a forearm grip would suffice. It would occupy the man, but not necessarily put him in enough pain as to take him to the ground.
Of course PSD's are trained to take men down and they have the drive for it, only saying here that a PPD's training should focus on manstopping, over occupying.
PPD= Eliminate the threat. 
PSD= Apprehend. Hold in place. Transport.


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole Stark said:


> Chris, I was wondering.
> 
> Sounds like you guys have looked at things from every possible angle. Not to sound morbid, but what's the plan should the handler become incapacitated and cannot command the dog?


 Have to admit that I'm with Nicole on this one. What would happen if you should fall and knock yourself unconscious and some do-gooder comes upon you and tries to help? Has this type of event ever been played out in any of your scenario work?


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## Sarah Platts

Jim Leon said:


> Here is my attempt to clarify, a PPD as opposed to a PSD should have no idea of self preservation in a fight. The dog, when commanded to attack, should go in with the intention to hurt the man enough to take him to the ground where he can control him.


 I suspect that most if not all PSD's are not considering self preservation in a fight. Most of the ones I know would enjoy getting into a fight and can probably take a good bit of abuse.



Jim Leon said:


> A PSD goal may be to apprehend the man, to hold him in place. In that situation a forearm grip would suffice. It would occupy the man, but not necessarily put him in enough pain as to take him to the ground.
> Of course PSD's are trained to take men down and they have the drive for it, only saying here that a PPD's training should focus on manstopping, over occupying.


This is a contradictory statement. True, I haven't met all the PSD's out there but the ones I know don't do the sport dog bark and hold. I don't even think they know what it means. If they are sent, someone is gonna get bit. And everyone seems to end up on the ground at the finish.




Jim Leon said:


> PPD= Eliminate the threat.
> PSD= Apprehend. Hold in place. Transport.


 Curious on what your definition of "eliminate the threat" means.


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## rick smith

it is easy to present a hypothetical situation that would make it VERY difficult for a dog to perform effectively as a PPD
- i don't see the point in bringing them up

the value of this thread, as i see it, is to be more specific about how to train it and proof it, with the emphasis on PROOFING
....which does, imo require some "extra" level of planning that i have not read about in previous PPD threads

iow, i believe PPD training involves a LOT more than bite work, OB ... and hope and trust that the dog will do its job when needed


----------



## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> it is easy to present a hypothetical situation that would make it VERY difficult for a dog to perform effectively as a PPD
> - i don't see the point in bringing them up


Exactly what type of hypothetical situation(s) are you alluding to?


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## Chris Viscovich

In discriminators, I only know my own plan and don't know how bite sport training is performed, in order to determine how PPD training must differ. In general, PPD training must cover behaviors in infinately more scenarios then a pure sport or police K9. By looking at it this way, the percentage of non-bite to bite appropriate scenarios in my lifestyle is pretty high. 99.99% would be a conservative estimate. The balance of my dog is high to the side of a fun family companion dog and much less to the focus of the bite. I think that almost all PPD bite training comes down to an appropriate selection of a combination of dog/handler to bite or not. 
*
To meet a PPD need is it better to find a dog that loves to bite and teach him when not to? or is it better to teach a reluctant dog when it must bite?*

In bite scenarios that are sequenced, we are probably training the wrong way. It is likely that in real life it happens out of the blue with no warning and ends with either fleeing the scene, handler or aggressor incapacitated with a police investigation. I will seek to make my bite training random, with unexpected starts and ends, incorporating mock next actions like jumping in the car and driving away, running from the scene, playing unconcious or just waiting patiently until others arrive on the scene.

To the carjack,
I think that the training is coming from both ends of back chaining from the bite and everyday that I take her in the truck with me and my family enters and exits the vehicle or friends come to the window without alert or action is positive training and proofing too. We do alot more null case work than bite work. The problem here is extending the threat from decoy to anyman. That is where we start to get into dangerous territory, where mistakes can be made.


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## Sarah Platts

Chris, I think you are more on the right mindset track. I do think PPDs need to be more family dogs than not. Mostly because I've never heard a case where a PPD was actually used. When you balance the odds of being the victim of a home invasion versus not, your dog could go his whole life and never be used in that capacity.

On the flip side, I've heard more "pet" dogs acting in a protection capacity than an actual PPD.


----------



## Joby Becker

Chris Viscovich said:


> Rick,
> 
> Point taken. Seeing that we have limited time to work with the decoy, we always try to fit in what we can. That was a long day, but not representative of the majority of our training days.
> 
> I am concerned about endurance, I run x-country ultra races and she will train with me. A regular training run will be between 16-20 miles and last 3-4 hours. Cross training is good, but we are specifically running for distance to work on this.
> 
> PPD Car protection training phase
> Prerequisite: The dog understands a decoy as a threat and has actively bitten
> 1. Define specific requirements/constraints in detail based on owner/dog (Example)
> Case 1:Owner remains in vehicle
> -Dog will be unrestrained in backseat, has access and ability to enter front seats to engage.
> -Dog will not bite unless commanded
> -Dog will engage only enemy body parts that enter vehicle crewspace
> -Dog will not exit the vehicle to engage or pursue
> Case 2: Owner exits vehicle (pulled, forced or and calls to dog
> -Dog exits vehicle
> -Dog comes to Owner
> -Dog performs per assault scenario rules of engagement
> 
> Difficulty levels:
> Easy: Decoy in suit
> Moderate : Hidden sleeve
> Hard: Muzzle
> 
> Where we are now: Dog has met prerequisite. Case 1 assessed with leash and no leash at easy level (decoy in suit). Dog remains in vehicle for suited decoy. Dog bite quality assessed as adequate. Case 2 not assessed.
> 
> Next steps: Assess Case 2 easy level. Practice Case 1 easy level. Assess Case 1 Moderate level.
> 
> Maybe this is closer to the structured approach, you were looking to explore.




all this escalation and assessments at your levels, and degree of difficulty I do not agree with.

How did you come up with the easy, moderate and hard?

are these things more difficult in your mind because of the training it takes, or because of the type of dog you have?

Why is biting hidden sleeve a higher difficulty for a PPD than a suit?

Why is attacking in muzzle harder than biting a suit, if the dog knows the threat is there, is mature, and knows he can and is expected to attack?

I think the progression of the training, is great for learning about training, having fun with your dog, making it a journey...

it may or may not be a great progression for training a PPD. 

I personally know its a "marathon" of training, but for me that would be the OB and control work, not the bite and attack work, with a mature dog, that is suitable, and knows its ok to bite, this should be possible and thoroughly explored in my mind very quickly, not drawn out with a year of suit work first, then hidden, then muzzle.

let me ask you a question,

if you set up your scenario, any one of them, and put a guy in a hidden sleeve, or the dog in a muzzle. and ran it, and the dog did not bite or fight, being a mature dog, with training under his belt, how would you progress?


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## Joby Becker

Sarah Platts said:


> Chris, I think you are more on the right mindset track. I do think PPDs need to be more family dogs than not. Mostly because I've never heard a case where a PPD was actually used. When you balance the odds of being the victim of a home invasion versus not, your dog could go his whole life and never be used in that capacity.
> 
> On the flip side, I've heard more "pet" dogs acting in a protection capacity than an actual PPD.


for me a PPD is variable, my definition is a dog that will bite and fight a person vigorously if needed.

most all dogs are "protective", few will do above..


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## Chris Viscovich

Joby Becker said:


> all this escalation and assessments at your levels, and degree of difficulty I do not agree with.
> 
> How did you come up with the easy, moderate and hard?
> 
> are these things more difficult in your mind because of the training it takes, or because of the type of dog you have?
> 
> Why is biting hidden sleeve a higher difficulty for a PPD than a suit?
> 
> Why is attacking in muzzle harder than biting a suit, if the dog knows the threat is there, is mature, and knows he can and is expected to attack?
> 
> I think the progression of the training, is great for learning about training, having fun with your dog, making it a journey...
> 
> it may or may not be a great progression for training a PPD.
> 
> I personally know its a "marathon" of training, but for me that would be the OB and control work, not the bite and attack work, with a mature dog, that is suitable, and knows its ok to bite, this should be possible and thoroughly explored in my mind very quickly, not drawn out with a year of suit work first, then hidden, then muzzle.
> 
> let me ask you a question,
> 
> if you set up your scenario, any one of them, and put a guy in a hidden sleeve, or the dog in a muzzle. and ran it, and the dog did not bite or fight, being a mature dog, with training under his belt, how would you progress?


Joby,
Maybe my logic is seriously flawed, but the difficulty was based on weening the dog away from equipment focus. A suit is obvious, a hidden sleeve is less obvious, muzzle work has decoy without equipment. The progression was just going from the dog's point of view, based on the relative ease of detection/perception of threat.

I'm a bit out of my element here, 
but if the scenario did not work, I think that we would probably try to step back and create a smaller transition between bite suit and hidden sleeve work. We could also increase stress with physical contact or by using confinement "box work" to create and reward the right responses.

Maybe there is a flaw in this training, by jumping to the response vs focusing on how to train a dog to ID threats (if this is possible).


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## lannie dulin

I haven't been on the forums in a while, but welcome. I would ask you to consider 2 things: 1) what is your end goal? 2) why do you think a dog is the best way to meet that goal?

The reason I ask these is that if your goal is simply to protect your family there are easier, faster, and cheaper ways of doing it. I'd suggest get a top level security system including video monitoring reinforced doors and shatter proof windows. Then get everyone a stun gun and/or mace. Then get yourself a few revolvers and fingerprint safes and place them around the house. All this will be easier, faster, and cheaper than a PPD and you'll know what your getting upfront. 

Now if you fancy working dogs and just want to get into them and find a good use for one for your own enjoyment then I suggest find a french ring or ppd club near you (over and hour drive is not abnormal for us) and go there every weekend for 3 months straight. Do everything they will let you do in that time. If you still want the dog. You'll have a great appreciation for it and will be less likely to **** it up (but you'll probably do that anyway on the 1st one, don't feel bad we all do). 

Hope this helps.


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## Chris Viscovich

Lannie,

Thanks for the input. Most people who are safety conscious (and prepared) probably already have most that you mention to protect their family at home plus more. What cannot be achieved by technology and materials is the awareness gained by the dog's sense of smell, enhanced hearing and innate sensitivity to human behaviors (maybe through observation of physical cues, hormonal smells or something else). In many ways the ultimate early warning device. 

Exposure to threat while at home, in public places and in the back woods are drastically different. 
If I am out riding a horse in the woods, I would sure want to know about someone waiting out there for me before they knew where I was. A great farm dog will let you know that someone is coming up the road long before they get there.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Chris Viscovich said:


> Lannie,
> 
> Thanks for the input. Most people who are safety conscious (and prepared) probably already have most that you mention to protect their family at home plus more. What cannot be achieved by technology and materials is the awareness gained by the dog's sense of smell, enhanced hearing and innate sensitivity to human behaviors (maybe through observation of physical cues, hormonal smells or something else). In many ways the ultimate early warning device.
> 
> Exposure to threat while at home, in public places and in the back woods are drastically different.
> If I am out riding a horse in the woods, I would sure want to know about someone waiting out there for me before they knew where I was. A great farm dog will let you know that someone is coming up the road long before they get there.


Don't you want to see the whites of their eyes before you machine gun them down?☺


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## Chris Viscovich

Lee, not if I can avoid confrontation in the first place.


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## Meg O'Donovan

That's only for the movies, Lee. You've been watching too much TV.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Chris Viscovich said:


> Lee, not if I can avoid confrontation in the first place.


Then how about a drone loaded with napalm.😀


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## Lee H Sternberg

Meg O'Donovan said:


> That's only for the movies, Lee. You've been watching too much TV.


Do you want to hear something ridiculous, Meg?

I've been so lazy the last couple of days my self winding watch quit running. 

WTF?


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## Meg O'Donovan

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Do you want to hear something ridiculous, Meg?
> 
> I've been so lazy the last couple of days my self winding watch quit running.
> 
> WTF?


Now, that is really funny. A comedian could use that line. Lee, you have a career just waiting for you, writing funny stuff for folks to read. Keep at it. It brightens the day (well, not the drone comment; that hurts).


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## lannie dulin

Chris Viscovich said:


> Lannie,
> 
> Thanks for the input. Most people who are safety conscious (and prepared) probably already have most that you mention to protect their family at home plus more. What cannot be achieved by technology and materials is the awareness gained by the dog's sense of smell, enhanced hearing and innate sensitivity to human behaviors (maybe through observation of physical cues, hormonal smells or something else). In many ways the ultimate early warning device.
> 
> Exposure to threat while at home, in public places and in the back woods are drastically different.
> If I am out riding a horse in the woods, I would sure want to know about someone waiting out there for me before they knew where I was. A great farm dog will let you know that someone is coming up the road long before they get there.


Okay then get a JRT. They are smaller, easier to maintain, more alert, and eat less. They do all the things you just mentioned. Use their alerts to deploy your defenses accordingly.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Now, that is really funny. A comedian could use that line. Lee, you have a career just waiting for you, writing funny stuff for folks to read. Keep at it. It brightens the day (well, not the drone comment; that hurts).


I swear, Meg, the damn watch stopped yesterday afternoon.

I haven't tested the napalm loaded drone yet on any unknown threats I might run into.☺

Like Chris if I don't quit hijacking his thread!


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## Bob Scott

lannie dulin said:


> Okay then get a JRT. They are smaller, easier to maintain, more alert, and eat less. They do all the things you just mentioned. Use their alerts to deploy your defenses accordingly.




I've always said a combo of a small, noisy dog and a big dog to back it up was the best canine defense you can have.

My last terrier (JRT) has been gone now for 6-8 yrs but he would alert on someone walking down the street a half block before my GSDs would notice anything. 

That did get the big guys wound up though. :twisted:


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