# I'll attempt to describe my dog, you tell me my next sport/training activity with him



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm new to the dog world (beyond pets anyway). I've had the fortune in my very few years (2) of doing this to train a great deal with handlers/trainers/decoys/competitors from the IPO/police and military k9/PPD/ringsport areas several of which are regulars at the world/national levels of domains. We have only trained for IPO more or less

I've noticed patterns with regards to my male dog (link below). All IPO decoys/trainers hate him. One world competitor/trainer told me to make him a pet as he was "too full of venom" and didn't enjoy the sport. If you see my video in the stalking thread I don't see that as a picture of a dog hating the activity. All IPO folks make comments like "have a good hold of his lead bc he will bite me for sure". He never has attempted this so I feel it's unwarranted. My bitch has bitten some of these same folks repeatedly but they don't say that about her lol. 

All police k9 guys, PPD, etc adore him. One urges me to leave IPO with him bc he isn't flashy enough and what makes him unique isn't appreciated in IPO these days. He suggested PSA or similar. I regularly train with a career police k9 trainer/decoy and he adores him and says "he really wants to bite the $&@! out of me" but says it with enthusiasm rather than disdain. I constantly hear things along the lines of I'm trying to use an ideal street dog to do IPO and that's not the best use of our time & effort. I have a bitch that's an ideal IPO dog so I can still scratch that itch.

Training him in IPO is challenging because I must "keep it real and personal" in order for his performance to peak. He is much more clear headed and focused in aggression than too much prey. We do muzzle work now and suit work in order keep the aggression on the field among other goals... If left to see it as a big game, which he will slip into thinking without effort, he will gladly do the work, but it's just a different picture. 

So, thoughts on a sport, activity, or purpose he may be better suited to? I'm a pretty sharp guy and pick up on things quickly, but I don't have nearly the experience or exposure of many here. Also, I tried to remain as unbiased as an handler/owner/trainer can, and tried to explain what I know or believe to know in the vernacular I'm familiar with so consider that when interpreting my post . I'll gladly clarify anything if asked


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Continue in IPO with him... let people see what a real dog is...Then breed him till his balls are inverted...


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Continue in IPO with him... let people see what a real dog is...Then breed him till his balls are inverted...


Even if that means we will never get the points a sportier dog will? It makes me cringe some of the dogs I see rated "Pronounced". Sometimes I see crap where I want to take the judge by the ear to my truck and say "let me show you what pronounced looks like"


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hunter,

For someone that's only been into working dogs for two years, you sure have some pretty strong opinions about handlers in a previous thread and judges in this one? A sharp or aggressive dog isn't always pronounced. God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hunter,
> 
> For someone that's only been into working dogs for two years, you sure have some pretty strong opinions about handlers in a previous thread and judges in this one? A sharp or aggressive dog isn't always pronounced. God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason


Point taken, but the pronounced statement from seeing dogs I know were not "displays a strong willingness to work, clear instinctive behaviour, goal-oriented determination in the exercises, self-confident manner, unrestricted attention and exceptional ability to handle stress."

dogs that handlers haved asked me "make sure you present the sleeve before the stick is raised", dogs that can be driven off the field, etc. if 95% are being rated pronounced I think it's time to raise the bar rather than pat our backs and said the dogs are all winners and here is everyone's trophy

I did a breed survey and was told to attack the dog out of the blind, I did and got bitched out and told to run at a 45 degree angle rather than directly at them. This doesn't sit well with me


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Hunter Allred said:


> Even if that means we will never get the points a sportier dog will? It makes me cringe some of the dogs I see rated "Pronounced". Sometimes I see crap where I want to take the judge by the ear to my truck and say "let me show you what pronounced looks like"


Do it because you love the challenge...who cares whether he is high in trial...but as I tell my kids in sports...Make them remember who you are...


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

will fernandez said:


> Do it because you love the challenge...who cares whether he is high in trial...*but as I tell my kids in sports...Make them remember who you are...[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> +2


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Do it because you love the challenge...who cares whether he is high in trial...but as I tell my kids in sports...Make them remember who you are...


I like how you think Will. 

Hunter, I can relate a little bit to that. I remember my TD having a perplexed look on his face once after dealing with the snipe I have. He paused, smiled, then scrunched up his face as he raised his fist to the air (he normally doesn't act like this) he exclaimed, "She is so angry, she's too young to be that angry!" I also remember one of judges saw her after trial when she was about 6-7 months old and commented saying "these high drive dogs like that, you can't do anything with them."

Do what you like or what you want. I'll always love and choose a good dog (fit) over any sport. That's just where my priorities are at. Angry? High Drive? Whatever. I call her mine. I'm the only one who needs to like her.

So roll with it and do what feels right for you and the dog.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

I was told by a French judge once that there is no such thing as to strong a dog, just handlers without the skill or knowledge to get what they want out of the dog. Instead of blaming your scores on having a "real" dog, push yourself to become a good enough trainer to reach the podium no matter what.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Hunter, Do you want the highest scoring dog or the best dog?
I know you know what I mean! I have seen many top scoring dogs (schutzhund and French Ring) that I wouldn't take a second look at as far as having outside of those venues. You must ask yourself do I want the whole package or the points. I think you know the answer. Do IPO and don't expect top score,but expect people to come and see you afer the trial and ask you about your dog!
Mike


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> I was told by a French judge once that there is no such thing as to strong a dog, just handlers without the skill or knowledge to get what they want out of the dog. Instead of blaming your scores on having a "real" dog, push yourself to become a good enough trainer to reach the podium no matter what.


True. 

That also depends upon how one arrives at the conclusion that the dog is strong. I did intentionally leave out the word "too" in too strong. I've seen some fairly well respected people reference certain dogs as strong and I've seen the same references made by owners of dogs that are perceived that way largely because of what was stated above. 

I used my own examples of that (perceptions of others). The truth is, I don't consider my dog strong. She's simply been left fairly untouched and it shows in her behavior. That's about it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> I was told by a French judge once that there is no such thing as to strong a dog, just handlers without the skill or knowledge to get what they want out of the dog. Instead of blaming your scores on having a "real" dog, push yourself to become a good enough trainer to reach the podium no matter what.


+1 (at least )
The older I get the more I tend to try to figure out what my dogs want instead of trying to over power them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ayuh, goal: synergy. I like that too.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Stealth brag, much? 

Try AKC/CKC obedience. Whole different challenge.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Stealth brag, much?.


What Leslie? Did you put on my Friday Nicole suit? ha ha.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Been a long week, Nicole. Guess the brain to fingers filter slipped, just a little. I stand by my suggestion. One of the most badass GSDs I know just got his CD with a high in trial and a "lovely" comment from the judge. Pretty awesome.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I believe that some Schutzhund/IPO helpers don't like a strong dog that wont do the dance but make a fool out of them instead. The better helpers will appreciate a strong dog.....AND know how to work it.
You go girl! ;-)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

If you hadn't noticed, all dog people are opinionated. Whether it be how you feed your dog, give them medicine, whether they'll bite or not, crate you dog, train your dog, let him snuggle you in the bed, etc.. Do your own thing. Make is safe for you, your dog, and have him more clear headed at the end and enjoy it. 

I liked Jakes outlook on the whole thing as you will learn more training something that "can't be trained". Because most can be trained, they may take extra effort and talent.

You may also want to read between the lines and make sure there isn't something really wrong with your dog. I find it hard to believe that a dog that bites in a bite sport isn't a good thing to all IPO decoys/trainers.

Good luck. Oh, and if his OB sucks, it will suck in PSA as much as IPO if you are competing against good competitors. Post a vid of that. I'd like to see a dog that likes to fight, not wanting to do flashy OB. 

Ten minutes with Hill Schwartzman and he'll have your dog hating your reward so much, it won't take it's eyes off it...The great magneto



Hunter Allred said:


> I'm new to the dog world (beyond pets anyway). I've had the fortune in my very few years (2) of doing this to train a great deal with handlers/trainers/decoys/competitors from the IPO/police and military k9/PPD/ringsport areas several of which are regulars at the world/national levels of domains. We have only trained for IPO more or less
> 
> I've noticed patterns with regards to my male dog (link below). All IPO decoys/trainers hate him. One world competitor/trainer told me to make him a pet as he was "too full of venom" and didn't enjoy the sport. If you see my video in the stalking thread I don't see that as a picture of a dog hating the activity. All IPO folks make comments like "have a good hold of his lead bc he will bite me for sure". He never has attempted this so I feel it's unwarranted. My bitch has bitten some of these same folks repeatedly but they don't say that about her lol.
> 
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We had a very good German helper who wasn't afraid of any dog, used bare hands for the "bad" dogs who used to think they could bully him. They learned to comply.

When he unfortunately left, we went to the helper at our club who did not have the dominance of our other helper. He really tried to help but once, when I took my husband's dog in protection - he would invariably call out "be careful, don't touch him". Nonsense, whatever happens, I will control our dogs hands on if necessary.

Our dogs sensed his apprehension and reacted accordingly. It needed far more control on our part.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Stealth brag, much?
> 
> Try AKC/CKC obedience. Whole different challenge.


Lol it's not bragging in the least. Totally misinterpreting me or I'm failing to communicate. I actually am going to enter the next rally/OB trial locally. That already in the works. And I've been wanting to try herding but I'm in the city and that's been harder to work out logistically. I just want to find the right job for the tool rather than try to use a hammer for all things. If a kid it 6'6" the first thought is basketball. That's all I'm saying.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> We had a very good German helper who wasn't afraid of any dog, used bare hands for the "bad" dogs who used to think they could bully him. They learned to comply.
> 
> When he unfortunately left, we went to the helper at our club who did not have the dominance of our other helper. He really tried to help but once, when I took my husband's dog in protection - he would invariably call out "be careful, don't touch him". Nonsense, whatever happens, I will control our dogs hands on if necessary.
> 
> Our dogs sensed his apprehension and reacted accordingly. It needed far more control on our part.


To be clear, I laugh at the "he'll bite" comments. I don't agree with them. The dog isn't stubborn at all, he's very biddable with me. Just in contrast to my female who say, is a blur from a front to basic position, my male is just accurate. He does it just as reliably, just as accurately, but people go "ooooohhh , awwwww" when she does" bc of the speed.. But he is ~30lbs heavier and built like a brick shithouse and she's built like a leaner mal

I don't feel like I am struggling to train something with him, just that how much do I want to invest in improving something when another quality might suit him towards another effort


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> I like how you think Will.
> 
> Hunter, I can relate a little bit to that. I remember my TD having a perplexed look on his face once after dealing with the snipe I have. He paused, smiled, then scrunched up his face as he raised his fist to the air (he normally doesn't act like this) he exclaimed, "She is so angry, she's too young to be that angry!" I also remember one of judges saw her after trial when she was about 6-7 months old and commented saying "these high drive dogs like that, you can't do anything with them."
> 
> ...


Oh I love this dog to no end. I just want to do sports or training best suited to him, I don't care what sport that means... That's the origin of the thread. IPO doesn't feel as right bc of all the way off base assumptions people make about him with no experience with the dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_IPO doesn't feel as right bc of all the way off base assumptions people make about him with no experience with the dog._

You might find this in many sports although I have never experienced it. However "strong / tough / bad" the dog is, if you have him under control, then IPO or any other sport should not be a hindernis.

I finished with IPO as my last dog got older and went to train with a nearby club for our Swiss National Working Dog Trials. The helper always complained that the dog didn't move with him when biting the sleeve. The dog, once he had got a hold, pulled down and resisted movement. I got sick of listening to this but, on trial day, the dog shot off after the same helper, and, to quote a bystander, did a "Kamikaze" on him. I had the last laugh.

There will always be a helper for each type of dog - whatever the sport. And let's face it, the clubs (helpers included) are there to *further* their sport so have no right to exclude a dog from training because it is too hard in their incompetent assessment.

Good luck!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> will fernandez said:
> 
> 
> > Do it because you love the challenge...who cares whether he is high in trial...*but as I tell my kids in sports...Make them remember who you are...[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> I did a breed survey and was told to attack the dog out of the blind, I did and got bitched out and told to run at a 45 degree angle rather than directly at them. This doesn't sit well with me


 
Look into PSA, you can run strait at the dog screaming, with a chainsaw while throwing a bucket of water at him.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

kerry engels said:


> Look into PSA, you can run strait at the dog screaming, with a chainsaw while throwing a bucket of water at him.


Well I wanna look into it for the dog, not for my decoy work... Though I am going to a PSA decoy seminar next month lol


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> IPO doesn't feel as right bc of all the way off base assumptions people make about him with no experience with the dog.


Seems the logical thing to do is to show them otherwise if IPO is the sport you want to work him in.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Seems the logical thing to do is to show them otherwise if IPO is the sport you want to work him in.


I want to work him in the best sport for him, regardless what it is. But, having only IPO experience, I realize I don't know what the best sport for him may be. Could be IPO. But that's why the thread was made... To query those who know more than I do


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Seems the logical thing to do is to show them otherwise if IPO is the sport you want to work him in.


Plus, I've been doing that since day one... But folks with 30 years in IPO and lots of trophies and titles under there belt don't just ditch their opinion and go "yeah you're probably right and I'm probably wrong. Thanks for correcting me new guy!" . The only bad thing about experience is it tends to feed the ego, which tends to stifle any form of self doubt or reanalysis of ones now concrete opinions. and often rightfully so as those opinions are usually well grounded and tempered by experience.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> I'm new to the dog world (beyond pets anyway). I've had the fortune in my very few years (2) of doing this to train a great deal with handlers/trainers/decoys/competitors from the IPO/police and military k9/PPD/ringsport areas several of which are regulars at the world/national levels of domains. We have only trained for IPO more or less
> 
> I've noticed patterns with regards to my male dog (link below). All IPO decoys/trainers hate him. One world competitor/trainer told me to make him a pet as he was "too full of venom" and didn't enjoy the sport. If you see my video in the stalking thread I don't see that as a picture of a dog hating the activity. All IPO folks make comments like "have a good hold of his lead bc he will bite me for sure". He never has attempted this so I feel it's unwarranted. My bitch has bitten some of these same folks repeatedly but they don't say that about her lol.
> 
> ...


Are you looking to score high? I believe it can still be done with this type of dog. You will probably have to break the habits of your present IPO club and do things a little differently. Most of the IPO clubs I've visited say similar or the same things. They're used to a certain "type" of (temperament) dog that they work best with and don't have too many "tricks" up their sleeve for this character dog. I was told the same by an IPO group regarding my dog. I was looking to cross train and do a little IPO. "I think you're confusing the dog and you shouldn't cross train her. Maybe you should consider doing either only IPO or only FR, etc., etc." While she can be rather strong in her approach to the helper, a stronger correction will "clean" her up easily. She oftentimes will "check" to see if she can impress the helper, no matter how many times I've corrected her for it and no matter how many times other helpers have corrected her for it. After the correction she is respectful, but initially everyone gets a "once over." This has prompted me to auto-correct on almost all occasions, lol. 

Anyways, the helper was new and the experienced helper just didn't want the headache of helping me train the dog to be respectful in the IPO blinds. She's also faster and hits harder than any of the other dogs in their club. They're accustomed to the heavier, slower, or more experienced dogs of their club, so I think she throws their timing off in a few situations. Anyways, your IPO club people may be afraid of the dog and aren't too sure how to help you train him for IPO. Or, sometimes when a dog is given a foundation by one helper, the other can not or will not try and work around or through this. Was his initial training w/ the IPO club or the PD helper? You just can't do the same stuff or you as the handler have to recognize what is going on and make the dog respectful, so that he can function. Just my 2 cents. I was told the same regarding my dog and the sport of FR initially. But, I'm not looking for high scores. Just a job for the dog and maybe a few titles. Good luck w/ your training. 

OH! You also have to mindful that the police/military helpers and training you use aren't confusing the dog. If the picture looks the same to the dog (training w/ IPO club vs training w/ PD and military training), the dog will think he must always behave like he's training w/ the police or military. Their movements, scenarios, training is different and can potentially make the dog more suspicious, aggressive, predatory, dominant... in his behaviours. Be sure the dog is not confused by the two. If he or his training is not balanced he will not be able to function in IPO.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

My advise is to find SPORT folks that have been successful training dogs similar to your dog's temperament and/or lines. Go back to the breeder and the stud owner. Contact owners of littermates. Find out what works and doesn't work. Get names of folks with similar types of dogs. It just sounds like you have not found sport folks that like or have experience with your type of dog. It sounds like you have not found the right tools to teach your dog.

Focus on YOUR dog. Find out what motivates him in order to get the obedience. Work on building engagement. Flashy obedience is just a dog in drive wanting the reward, along with precision training. Your dog's training method will be unique for him. When you look at a dog on trial day, or a student on test day, there is a whole lot of individualized teaching for that individual dog, or student.

Jake's advice was dead on. Find a way to train YOUR dog.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Annamarie Somich said:


> My advise is to find SPORT folks that have been successful training dogs similar to your dog's temperament and/or lines. Go back to the breeder and the stud owner. Contact owners of littermates. Find out what works and doesn't work. Get names of folks with similar types of dogs. It just sounds like you have not found sport folks that like or have experience with your type of dog. It sounds like you have not found the right tools to teach your dog.
> 
> Focus on YOUR dog. Find out what motivates him in order to get the obedience. Work on building engagement. Flashy obedience is just a dog in drive wanting the reward, along with precision training. Your dog's training method will be unique for him. When you look at a dog on trial day, or a student on test day, there is a whole lot of individualized teaching for that individual dog, or student.
> 
> Jake's advice was dead on. Find a way to train YOUR dog.


I agree with everything you're saying. When methods being used in protection were failing to work on him for months out of desperation I sought out and actually did go to a decoy as much as time and finances allowed (multiple states away) who did a lot of work on the sire and he did in fact solve the issue we were having. And he is also the one that has suggested several times to do PSA with him as what the dog brings to the table is better appreciated in that venue.

As far as flashy obedience, its not a lack of wanting the reward and he is in his high prey drive. Its not an issue of "can't figure out how to motivate him", but rather an issue of it just doesn't look nearly as pretty as my bitches OB. Maybe I should capture some video of both dogs doing the same movements as I'm not doing a good job of explaining this I don't think.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hunter

Using the same training techniques for months on end when they're not getting the results you want. Fits the definition of Insanity ;-)
Also "NO training is better then Bad training" If you got the results you wanted working with someone a couple of States away? Then you're better off working there once every 6 weeks then every day someplace that isn't getting any results.
Both your dogs looked like they have potential. Just figure out what works with both and don't waste your time on techniques or venues that don't.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hunter
> 
> Using the same training techniques for months on end when they're not getting the results you want. Fits the definition of Insanity ;-)
> Also "NO training is better then Bad training" If you got the results you wanted working with someone a couple of States away? Then you're better off working there once every 6 weeks then every day someplace that isn't getting any results.
> Both your dogs looked like they have potential. Just figure out what works with both and don't waste your time on techniques or venues that don't.


Well I learned that lesson *now* lol


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

All you need is a thick skin. 

I started off IPO with a Briard who had hair over his face which I tied back in a knot with a rubber band before I decided to clip his hair above his eyes.

He looked a gay dog! I heard various comments such as home-knitted dog, etc. but I persevered and got the results. 

I know it's not the same situation as yours but the advice to go back to the helper who recognised the dog's qualities is not without!

Choose the sport, control the dog and "F" the rest!!


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> As far as flashy obedience, its not a lack of wanting the reward and he is in his high prey drive. Its not an issue of "can't figure out how to motivate him", but rather an issue of it just doesn't look nearly as pretty as my bitches OB.


Sounds like your female is naturally placing her body correctly without you having to train it. You are asking for basic obedience and she is delivering pretty fronts, heeling, etc - while your male is just naturally sloppy? If this is the case, then you just need to teach or communicate to your male that you want precise obedience with all of the correct angles. For me, this is when standard obedience tools such as a clicker, correct timing of the clicker, placement of the reward, rear end awareness, head position, follow the left leg, etc become very useful. You just need to communicate to your dog your higher standards for obedience - sits, heeling, returns, fronts, downs, etc all have to be done with precision and accuracy. (Sounds like you already have the speed.) With schH, even the down on the article needs to be lined up on top of the track with a nice pretty tucked position, etc.

Maybe once you raise your requirements for your male, he will start moving his body differently, and not be so lazy looking. 

The obedience is the same for PSA, especially the heel position, speed on return to the handler, focus on the handler, speed on down in motion, etc. If you don't care to train this type of ob, then you would have to go to one of the ring sports.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> If you don't care to train this type of ob, then you would have to go to one of the ring sports.


Ring doesn't allow sloppy ob either. Just a different kind of picture.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Lol our OB isn't sloppy or inaccurate, just not going to stand out as exceptional. His power and ability to take pressure is what will stand out more if it is tested. In IPO I don't see that really tested. This is why I'd like to consider a different venue. What sport will test his courage, nerves, and ability to take and remain clear headed under pressure?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

PSA. Still waiting on some video to see what you are talking about?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> PSA. Still waiting on some video to see what you are talking about?


Jake, there was another thread he posted some more recent videos in (I think it was the one titled Handler Praise). It appeared to me from what I saw that IPO was a suitable fit for the dog. 

I know I tend to say a fair bit of uninformed and naive things given my lack of experience/accomplishments, but I'm personally not interested in using a sport to measure the worth or display my dogs best attributes within. First, I don't have that many choices up here and second, I suppose if I were to place her given her strongest attributes, I'd make her available to someone for detection.

Where it matters most (to me) is how the work I do with her in sport translates over to my life away from the field. Every exercise I train I consider how it could be utlized in a pratical application. It's probably a backwards way of looking at things but my dogs spend a lot of time in an environment where being able to do a blind search (tree, vehicle, building), send away, recall, motion exercises could mean the difference between life and death for the dog. 

Hunter so with all my rambling aside, I get where you are going or what you are attempting to determine based upon what you asked and I believe Jake is right given my limited knowledge of PSA.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Regardless of what your dog is suitable for, what's available as far as training? I think my DS would rock at KNPV, being as that's what she's bred from, but given I'm not aware of anyone training for it on this side of the Atlantic, I'm stuck looking at clubs or groups within driving distance for sports to train for. If I want to trial, that adds another dimension. Where are the trials being held? No good to me if there's one a year and it's held on the other side of Canada or 15 hours away in the US.

What are your goals for your dog? To title? To push him as far as he can be pushed? To show off to others? To have fun? To prove him breeding worthy? To train and learn?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Regardless of what your dog is suitable for, what's available as far as training? I think my DS would rock at KNPV, being as that's what she's bred from, but given I'm not aware of anyone training for it on this side of the Atlantic, I'm stuck looking at clubs or groups within driving distance for sports to train for. If I want to trial, that adds another dimension. Where are the trials being held? No good to me if there's one a year and it's held on the other side of Canada or 15 hours away in the US.
> 
> What are your goals for your dog? To title? To push him as far as he can be pushed? To show off to others? To have fun? To prove him breeding worthy? To train and learn?


Thats the sort of info I want to know. Whats well suited, whats available. Obviously if KNPV were the perfect sport for us but I had to fly to Europe just to trial or even train I'd be SOL and settle for "whats the next best thing that is within our financial grasp" 

Goals are to have fun, train and learn, go as far as we can, title, in that order. Don't care about breed worthiness or showing off. Don't really even care too much about titling. We'll have an IPO3 on him soon but I don't see that as a real hard test of the dog.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I can't tell you what's available where you live, you have to tell me.

For me, as important,or perhaps more, than the sport is the training group. Do they train in a way that I'm comfortable with? What's their focus? Is it in line with my aims for my dog and myself? Am I going to get along with them and feel like part of the group? Is their helper/decoy any good? Can I afford to train with them? Do they train on days/times I have available? How far is it to training? What are their facilities like? What's the leadership style? It's going to be different for everyone. I can't answer for you any more than you can decide for me.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

_We'll have an IPO3 on him soon but I don't see that as a real hard test of the dog_.

Then cross over to PSA. You already have trained a good portion of it. It will be a nice fit.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Kevin Cyr said:
> 
> 
> > +3
> ...


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> I can't tell you what's available where you live, you have to tell me.
> 
> For me, as important,or perhaps more, than the sport is the training group. Do they train in a way that I'm comfortable with? What's their focus? Is it in line with my aims for my dog and myself? Am I going to get along with them and feel like part of the group? Is their helper/decoy any good? Can I afford to train with them? Do they train on days/times I have available? How far is it to training? What are their facilities like? What's the leadership style? It's going to be different for everyone. I can't answer for you any more than you can decide for me.


This was the deciding factor for me choosing IPO over ring.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Do Ring. There's lots of nice GSDs in IPO, but a nice GSD in Ring will really stand out.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> I was told by a French judge once that there is no such thing as to strong a dog, just handlers without the skill or knowledge to get what they want out of the dog. Instead of blaming your scores on having a "real" dog, push yourself to become a good enough trainer to reach the podium no matter what.


This is my favorite post on the Internet today!

The more time I spend learning about working dogs & their trainers, the more I believe what jake says to be true.
IME, any decent ipo helper/trainer prefers a strong dog over a weak dog - unless your dog is unstable & that's where his aggression displays one from, I'd be really surprised that seasoned ipo trainers/decoys wouldn't want to work with him.
As far as obedience goes, look at the entirely off lead rigorous & often flashy obedience routines knpv handlers routinely do with their dogs, and then re-read jake's post & apply to ipo...
Happy training!


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