# What would you pay?



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm considering buying a 21 month old dog that's been started in OB & bitework. No idea about tracking. No idea (yet) about hips/elbows. No titles yet, not even the BH. 

Grandfather is Tom van't Leefdaalhof. Also has Pike von der Schafbachmuhle on the sire's side. Dam's side has lesser known dogs (at least to me), Dac von Ranken Hoher Heide and Gotthilf von der Kine. Lots and lots of titles in the pedigree, especially close up.

The dog is being considered for breeding. I am told that it could easily receive a V show rating & KKL1.

I'm asking because to me, the asking price seems a bit steep, but I'm admittedly a n00b, so I'd like to defer to those that have been in the game longer before I make any kind of decision.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I'm considering buying a 21 month old dog that's been started in OB & bitework. No idea about tracking. No idea (yet) about hips/elbows. No titles yet, not even the BH.
> 
> Grandfather is Tom van't Leefdaalhof. Also has Pike von der Schafbachmuhle on the sire's side. Dam's side has lesser known dogs (at least to me), Dac von Ranken Hoher Heide and Gotthilf von der Kine. Lots and lots of titles in the pedigree, especially close up.
> 
> ...


If it could EASILY get the V rating or KKL, why wasn't it done? Erh...Get a contract and video.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

What is the asking price? PM me and I'll tell you if its reasonable or not. Who is the seller too? What side of the ocean is the dog being sold on? US or EU?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

A dog must be at least 2 years old to be breed surveyed.

I've seen a couple of short videos of OB and bitework.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I would say that the price could vary greatly. If you wanted a dog for top world level competition and had the dog evaluated and looked at, and beleived the dog and yourself could do it then I would think 5000 would not be unreasonable. If the dog is someone elses washout and you only goals are to trial at a club level and use as a stud dog then much much less. I wouldnt pay more than 1500-2500 for uch a dog. You also need a contract and at least pre lims on the hips and elbows if they wont give you those at very least forget about it. I personally would also like to take the dog and have him examined by a vet of my choice, JMHO


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't see myself in any top competitions anytime soon, Greg. :lol: The dog probably could go there with an experienced handler, but not with me. I still have a LOOONG way to go before I'll be ready for big trials. Heck, I'd be terrified to even enter a regional trial at this point, even if I did have a super dog!

I have already inquired about hips/elbows. That's a must, for sure.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Is the dog in the US? Link to pedigree? Send me a pm if you want I am very curious about a couple things.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I wouldn't pay much, doesn't sound like they put anything into the dog, not even pre lims? Started? That could mean he sits and bites a tug. Tom is one of my favs but without more info and seeing a really promissing dog, I'd give about $800 tops. I'd rather have a pup I could bring up MY way, green dogs worry me unless they come from someone I REALLY REALLY trust rearing pups. I'm also not one to wanna fill the pockets of some dude that sat his dog in a kennel for 19 months and wants a green dog price for him now. He better show he has some work on him, nice OB at least and a full grip on a sleeve under pressure.

If they get the prelims, good video, good dog and whatever info you need, price can go up to $6000.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Okay, I hope I don't get tarred and feathered, but this is something that I have never understood, and I feel like I have to say: I have a problem with people throwing their hat into the breeding arena who are (as you say yourself) "noobs". It's putting the cart before the horse. You have no clue whether the price is fair for the dog and are coming here looking for verification. Breeders should be the ones who have done the work, have the experience, not beginners. It's just backwards.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> What is the asking price? PM me and I'll tell you if its reasonable or not. Who is the seller too? What side of the ocean is the dog being sold on? US or EU?


But Mike I understand you don't want to pay much anyway! =;


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> You have no clue whether the price is fair for the dog and are coming here looking for verification.


Not_ exactly_, Susan. I said from the onset that I thought the asking price was much too high, and asked what others might pay for such a dog. I already had in my mind a figure that I thought would be fair, but since I've never bought an older dog before, I wanted to make sure that what I was thinking was appropriate, before I made an arrogant-sounding ass of myself by making an offer that might be too low or whatever. 





susan tuck said:


> Breeders should be the ones who have done the work, have the experience, not beginners. It's just backwards.


You gotta start somewhere. **shrug** I'm trying to do things right. I would be titling the dog before breeding it, as well as getting the breed survey done, so yes, even though I am a n00b, it's not like I'm planning to get the dog and start breeding the hell out of it it as soon as it arrives at my house! 

Thanks for sharing your opinion.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I see what Susan is saying. "Starting somewhere," as in you gotta start somewhere, to me means hanging around for a while, training, listening, watching, learning, titling dogs, competing, learning...did I say that already? Hopefully you've got a mentor you trust.

If you're asking a message board how much to pay, that leaves me to believe you don't have a mentor. That's unfortunate if you're a noob.

Anyway, as far as price, if the dog is in Germany, I've heard shipping is about $1100 right now. Just something to add to the cost. I wouldn't buy a young dog without actual x-rays, not just verbal. I'd also want a sperm count if it's a male.

Laura


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I'm considering buying a 21 month old dog that's been started in OB & bitework. No idea about tracking. No idea (yet) about hips/elbows. No titles yet, not even the BH.
> 
> Grandfather is Tom van't Leefdaalhof. Also has Pike von der Schafbachmuhle on the sire's side. Dam's side has lesser known dogs (at least to me), Dac von Ranken Hoher Heide and Gotthilf von der Kine. Lots and lots of titles in the pedigree, especially close up.
> 
> ...


The GSD you describe is very hard to come by IMHO. I personally would not tell anyone a working dog would V and KKL1 for sure. I might say it is possible if you find the right judge. This is a opinion of the judge. The dog might look very nice but many judges have different opinions on what is V and KKL1. A V working dog would not usually V under a show judge and same goes for the KKL1. Maybe you find a friendly working judge and get your V and KKL1. Very few V and KKL1 working dogs out there IMHO. So enough about show crap. Lets say the dog is at least a G/SG and KKL2 but can really do the work in all three phases. When I say can work I mean has drive for a National level and no bullshit. The dog has passing hips and elbows. The 21 month old dog I describe would go for between $3000 - $6000 dollars. The price varies so much because of quality and who I was buying it from. I would not hesitate to pay $6000 for a really top working dog but everything must be in order.

I feel that a true V, KKL1, kickass dog in the work, a-normal hips/elbows would go for very big money. I would say from $8000 to $15000 dollars. Dogs for this kind of money would not be bought sight unseen by me. I would make my trip and test the dog. If the dog is not what they say then I take my ass back to the US with no dog.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I understand what Susan is saying, too, and I agree to a point. However, I don't want to wait until I'm in my mid-to-late 30s to start really getting into things. I am not able to keep buying dogs to title, just so I can learn and gain experience. Hmmm. I don't think that's going to read the way I mean it to. What I mean is that I can't afford to buy a new dog every few years to train and title - nor do I have the facilities to _keep_ so many dogs once they _are_ titled. What would I do with them? Most likely they'd all be club level working dogs (so not really worth breeding), but probably be too high energy to be turned into family pets, so I doubt I could sell them and get back out of them even _close_ to what I have in them, IF I could sell them at all. I mean, really? Just trying to be realistic here.

I'm busting my_ butt_ with Deja, trying to get a 1 on her because her last owner didn't have time to get her titled, and it's really a shame because Deja could have been (SHOULD have been) a SchH 3 by now. Luckily, Deja's more than 'good enough' to breed, but because of her age, she will probably only be able to have 1 or 2 more litters. She's 6 years old, so really it's probably not even_ worth_ it to bother with trying to get her titled, but I'm learning a lot from her, just like I learned a lot with Jak, and I _want_ to have her titled before she is bred again so I don't feel so much like a BYB. I didn't want to breed her this last time, but I had to compromise because she is on a sort of co-ownership right now.


I do have a mentor (he is, in fact, the person who told me about the dog in the first place), and I have asked him the same questions, in regards to price, but he's not as quick to reply as you all are. He's not computer savvy, so when he gets around to reading his e-mails, instead of replying to them, he has to call everyone, and he doesn't always have time to do it right then, so it can be a day or so before you hear back from him if you send him an e-mail, or leave him a voicemail either one. I'd like to say to him, "Let's offer this much," and feel confident that I'm not spouting off some ridiculous amount, which, from what you all have said so far, I wouldn't be. That's pretty much the main reason I posted about it here. 

Here are a few pictures of the dog in question. It's a little overstacked in the 3rd pic.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Grandfather is Tom van't Leefdaalhof. Also has Pike von der Schafbachmuhle on the sire's side. /QUOTE]
> 
> Since we have not seen a pedigree, and don't know who the parents (titled?) nor can see the dog or level of training he has it is difficult to know how to answer your question. I also understand that you might not want to share this information as it might ruin your chances of obtaining the dog. I do know that Tom is one of my favorite dogs too. Tom brings a lot of serious, fight drive into the picture and these dogs are not always easy to train. I didn't notice the reason they were selling the dog (kennel reduction, washout, too hard to handle, returned, etc.) or what your level of training and handling experience are but those are two things I would strongly consider.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I appreciate that no one has jumped down my throat on this one. I will bow out, but before I go, I want to say I can understand being excited and wanting to get involved with breeding, however; I truly believe it is not something to be taken lightly, and only the most experienced should be breeding, it's the culmination of years of experience. If you start breeding before you understand the breed, the bloodlines or sport, you are bound to make "newbie" mistakes and unfortunately the ones who will pay for those mistakes will be your customers and the puppies themselves. I honestly believe one of the biggest problems in our breed is popularity, which has made a lot of people think they can breed who shouldn't be breeding.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I appreciate that no one has jumped down my throat on this one. I will bow out, but before I go, I want to say I can understand being excited and wanting to get involved with breeding, however; I truly believe it is not something to be taken lightly, and only the most experienced should be breeding, it's the culmination of years of experience. If you start breeding before you understand the breed, the bloodlines or sport, you are bound to make "newbie" mistakes and unfortunately the ones who will pay for those mistakes will be your customers and the puppies themselves. I honestly believe one of the biggest problems in our breed is popularity, which has made a lot of people think they can breed who shouldn't be breeding.


Well said! 
There are only a small hand full of working GSD breeders here in the US that are not guessing, trying or hoping. That have spent most of there lives training and breeding studying bloodlines of working shepherds and with most certainty they can tell you what the litter will be like and they will be able to perform and be able to do the job they were breed to do and be healthy.
I really wish there were more GOOD breeders and I encourage any one who is trying to better our breed to do so. 
All three of my Schutzhund dogs were borne here in the US. There parents have been imported but are/were now part of breeding programs. I hope my next dog/pup is US borne also.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I know a lot of you (that's a collective you, by the way) folks are concerned about pedigrees and ancestry etc. That doesn't matter to me, however the quality of a particular dog does. A dog that will make it through our patrol dog training, 18 to 24 months old is going from 4 to 6 thousand dollars. Before I purchase them, I have complete physicals including x-rays (at my expense) and I test them. 

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I appreciate that no one has jumped down my throat on this one. I will bow out, but before I go, I want to say I can understand being excited and wanting to get involved with breeding, however; I truly believe it is not something to be taken lightly, and only the most experienced should be breeding, it's the culmination of years of experience. If you start breeding before you understand the breed, the bloodlines or sport, you are bound to make "newbie" mistakes and unfortunately the ones who will pay for those mistakes will be your customers and the puppies themselves. I honestly believe one of the biggest problems in our breed is popularity, which has made a lot of people think they can breed who shouldn't be breeding.


Some good points here.

Reading the post with "I am not able to keep buying dogs to title, just so I can learn and gain experience" makes me kind of stop short and think "Why are you going into breeding?" Not at all a rhetorical question ... a real question. Why do you want to be a breeder?

I hope I don't sound like I'm attacking. I'm not.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree on hips, elbows, sperm AND spine.

If the dog is here, go see it done.

That is a bit high. And we do not buy titled dogs, all of Gabor's dogs prior to Dax (from our own breeding) he bought from a few weeks old to 1.5 years old. Enzo, he bought at 9 months, no work (good thing sometimes) because the club said dog was not good. 

3 x WUSV and 3 x FCI with owner handler trained, KK1 by 6 years of age. hmmmm 

Depends on how much they paid as well. Even some of the high level competitors pay big bucks and the dog does not turn out. 

3000 or so. Maybe 4000


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I know a lot of you (that's a collective you, by the way) folks are concerned about pedigrees and ancestry etc. That doesn't matter to me, DFrost


To you it may not you have the product/tool. For those with the pedigree/recipe it means every thing.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> To you it may not you have the product/tool. For those with the pedigree/recipe means every thing.


I fully understand that. I was just giving a different perspective. 

DFrost


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I fully understand that. I was just giving a different perspective.
> 
> DFrost


Understood:razz:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With 50+ yrs in dogs I can honestly say I don't have the balls to breed. Way to much responsibility for me!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Reading the post with "I am not able to keep buying dogs to title, just so I can learn and gain experience" makes me kind of stop short and think "Why are you going into breeding?" Not at all a rhetorical question ... a real question. Why do you want to be a breeder?
> 
> I hope I don't sound like I'm attacking. I'm not.


I knew that wouldn't come out the way I was intending it to. **sigh** Did you read the rest of that paragraph? 

Why do I want to be a breeder? Hmmm. Well, I don't have a lot of time ATM to sit here and try to formulate a detailed response, but part of the reason is because, around here, working line breeders are few and far between, the closest one being more than an hour away, and he's in it purely for the money aspect. Another reason is (honestly!) because of the age of my mentor. He might not be around too much longer, so I'd like to learn from him what I can, with respect to breeding & bloodlines, before his mind and/or body gives out on him. The stroke he had a few years ago is affecting him still. 

Yes, I am a n00b, but everyone was at some point. Sure, I'll make mistakes along the way, but that's part of the learning process, is it not? I like to think I'm responsible enough to do things the way they ought to be done. It's not like I'm just in it to see how many puppies I can pump out.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm glad to hear you have a mentor you trust. That's great!

I have to comment on one of your reasons, though...maybe it's different in different parts of the country, but you mentioned that there's no local working line breeders. I don't think that's important. At least in my club, I can think of one rottie and one GSD that came from fellow club members as young dogs (they didn't have what the original owners wanted). The rest of the dogs came from far, far away. Oh, wait, the Malinois were locals, but that's Malinois, not GSD.

My point is if someone's looking for a good dog, location probably isn't tops on their list. Unless you're breeding for the pet market. 

Laura


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

There's not a breeder in Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota or Iowa I would buy from or 90% of the other states for that matter. The closest one I would consider is 6 hours. This doesn't mean that they or any of the others I may consider have what I want. 
Like I said in a previous post we do need more GOOD breeders.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

The dog at that age already should have hips/elbows/spine done before even being offered for sale IMO. If the dog has truly been started in all 3 phases...the price range Sue mentioned with x-rays done. I'd do sperm check, also if importing some basic bloodwork. If this is an import, then you have the added cost of shipping. I'd have someone experienced and trusted look at the dog either with you if in the US; or someone over in Europe. To many Tom, Dicks, and Harry's out there looking to take advantage of people. I really depend on my contact in Europe to be my eyes and ears with my dogs I import for myself. With choosing a breeding dog; you have to be able to select the best dogs.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

The dog IS A-stamped. I asked yesterday. I will be having someone I trust evaluate the dog for me, make an offer, and bring it back if he believes the dog is worth it (and they accept my offer). I appreciate everyone's input.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Even if "a" stamped, I would want spine, hips, elbows, sperm at minimum.

Gabor was looking at a Czech dog last year. Hips done, as the dog was 4, competed at National and Int'l level. Even then, he asked (and they did) hips, spine, elbows, sperm with him there.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Sue DiCero said:


> Even if "a" stamped, I would want spine, hips, elbows, sperm at minimum.
> 
> Exactly...
> 
> Kristen, when you say A stamped, just hips or elbows too?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not sure. I'm going through a middleman who's also going through a middleman, so I just have to have a lot of trust. Aren't both hips and elbows required by the SV now, though?

What do you mean about the spine?


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

"I'm not sure. I'm going through a middleman who's also going through a middleman, so I just have to have a lot of trust. Aren't both hips and elbows required by the SV now, though?

What do you mean about the spine?"

Kristen,

That personally would concern me about the multiple phases of people going through. If I was buying an older dog, I would still ask for the elbows, hips and spine. We did the same when we brought in dogs for police. Others thought we were crazy, but we did catch some issues with dogs that were incredible in the work. Did not bring them over - another k9 guy in the US that we know about did.

Spine to ensure that there is no bridging problem or other issue that will show up later. 

And why are they selling the dog at this age? (maybe I missed why)


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Don't assume anything as far as A stamps-yes since '04 SV requires hips and elbows-doesn't mean the seller did that though ...IMO, too many middlemen..be careful. Believe me, there is always another dog out there


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Sounds like you are traveling down a road that's been traveled by many in the past. Middlemen through middlemen, sometimes provide goods that aren't what they are made out to be. 

If you can afford to spend it, then you can afford to lose it. If you can't afford the risk, then lessen the risk. Go judge the dog for youself, sometimes the cost of assuring yourself is less than purchasing the dog (and the expensive shipping costs), than getting stuck with a dog that wasn't your ideal.

There are alot of dogs for sale. There are some really good dogs for sale so it doesn't end with just one. And Lots of lesser quality available too. Patience and diligence pays.

There is the short of it.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

Kristen,
I am no dog expert by any means; I can only comment from a life-experience platform.
If it were me and I was spinning on the hype of getting this dog from another country with all the unknowns, the high cost, middlemen, all the steps, etc. I would have to shake myself, stop, breathe, slow down and ask why am I really doing this? This one dog may be a nice dog. But honestly, what distinguishes this dog from a US dog that is a whole lot easier to acquire? 
Then I would take a a little break from the whole thing, wait. And find a dog that is on a much easier path to access. Like a US dog I could go see first, meet the parents.
I would console myself by learning from this particular research project on what is involved in getting older dogs, sight unseen from overseas. 
Take care,
Meena
PS, It sort of reads, from what others have posted, that just getting this dog to your front door is several thousand dollars. Why not spend the money on a dog with far more certainties. Like a solid pup and invest all those thousands in yourself and training new pup?


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## Mike Talkington (May 13, 2008)

Kristen,
From the posts, I'm gathering you are looking to purchase the dog for your own stud dog...
Why wouldnt you look for a stud dog to breed with instead of buying one?

Just a thought O
Mike


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm on my parents' computer w/dial up right now, so you won't be getting a long response, but to answer a few of the questions and concerns y'all have brought up since my last post, the dog in question is a female. The first 'middleman' is my trainer, and the 2nd is someone he has known and done business with for the past 500 years. I'm not just blindly going through brokers or anything like that. ;-)

The dog is being sold because that's what the kennel who has her does. It's their business. 

Getting the dog to me will not be as expensive if 'middleman #2' brings the dog back with him.

I don't want a puppy.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

"The dog is being sold because that's what the kennel who has her does. It's their business. "

Good note: that is one of the 1st times I have actually heard someone state this. Usually, it is divorce, need $$, death in the family, old couple that handle the dog, etc.

I have a friend that bought a female this past spring. SCH3, KK1, FH. Very nice pedigree. Supposedly never bred before, just a house dog owned by a lonely old man. Needed the $$ supposedly. Lo and behold, dog was a kennel dog, had a litter last Nov and the previous owner is an active breeder and is active in trials; he is on the SV breeding reports.

Go figure.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Also, check the excess baggage fees. They just went up a LOT.

I think the question is that if you can not the lines (combo) etc, in the US, it does make sense to look over the pond.


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