# Reactive or fearful dogs



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Originally Posted by rick smith ".... since i work with a lot customers dogs, i usually don't have an option of telling them their dog is a nerve bag they should dump, so i would be interested in any specific techniques that you have used to reduce fearfulness; whether successful or not
> - not generalities, i've been there, but any specific confidence building training sessions
> - i doubt the hard corps working crowd would ever want to admit their dog had fear issues, but even good working dogs can still use confidence building...there could be benefits for them too, that sort of session would never hurt them ..."
> 
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ok Connie, since i'm partial to mature people :razz: here's a quickie basic thing i do a lot 

* my assumption is that fearful dogs don't trust their owners ... either 

ime, all have been very reluctant to be picked up. a solution that has always worked for me :
....pick em up 
....but in a way that makes gravity go away and they have to trust the picker, NOT a gentle, coddling type "lift" 

their level of fear will usually be measured by how much they squirm and resist, and the way you pick them up should be done gradually if they are a real nerve bag. 
- if not you are then faced with two choices 
1. flood and hold til they calm
2. or drop em back down :-(

like any training, don't go for the whole tamale if the dog can't handle it ... but end result is grab en quick and get em on your shoulder and go jogging and they act like a sack of potatoes with no tension in the body at all 
.... lots of other ways to do this

if you dog is too big there are variations //lol//
.... or work out more 
...but the goal should be obvious ... it's a trust builder a lot of people never try and the more a fearful dog trusts their owner the better ... imo

you're gonna make me write my book .. i love this subject


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Interesting topic Connie.

A reactive dog is not the same as a fearful one, and fearfulness can have so many degrees...

A reactive dog can be made not reactive with pure OB.

Is the fearful dog afraid of the whole world or just a few "things"?

Happy training

Max


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

agreed Max, but all fearful dogs are reactive and the more confidence they have the less reactive they usually are 

i'm not talking trained responses that have been conditioned to be reactive, but more like how they view the environment around them


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## Jennifer Andress (Sep 4, 2013)

Assuming we're talking about genetically fearful dogs and not dogs that have learned to fear some particular thing(s) (which would then probably just be desensitization and repeated exposures), I honestly don't know how you make someone else's dog not fearful.

If it's your own dog, then it's all relationship and confidence-building, which is not a topic I can discuss in anything remotely approaching brevity.

When I get home I'll post a novel on the subject.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

The word "reactive" to me means, referred to dogs, a reaction to an external stimulus, either aggressive, playful, investigative or just exciting. 

A fearful reaction I would always call "fearfulness" even if by term it is still a reaction.

Just wanted to explain myself so we dont say the same thing calling it different.

About confidence, some of the most reactive dogs I have seen and worked, were very confident, "playful" dogs, by playful meaning what most people refer to as high drive.

Happy training 

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Jennifer Andress said:


> Assuming we're talking about genetically fearful dogs and not dogs that have learned to fear some particular thing(s) (which would then probably just be desensitization and repeated exposures), I honestly don't know how you make someone else's dog not fearful.
> 
> If it's your own dog, then it's all relationship and confidence-building, which is not a topic I can discuss in anything remotely approaching brevity.
> 
> When I get home I'll post a novel on the subject.



Unfortunately, it is very difficult to establish if fearfulness is genetic or learned, unless the dog is what I call "miserable"

Dogs are very good at reading people "emotions" better said would be body language, a lot of times the learn to fear from the owners, either because the owner themselves are not "relaxed" or because they are praised when they show "fear".

If a dog is afraid of a few "things" can be conditioned to not fear those few things, if afraid of everything it will always find something to fear.

Happy training 
Max


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

gotcha Max ... we are on the same frequency 

reactivity is just one part of the overall body language and the ways you gave examples of are certainly acceptable forms of reactivity

fearful reactive dogs walk with a tension in their body, and are always looking for the trouble that lurks everywhere around them 
- hard to even get a play bow from a fearful dog out in public
- or put them in a sit and try and raise them with a hand under their muzzle and their front legs will come off the ground


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Yes, we are speaking in the same language.
Agreed!!

Max


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

another simple way to help a dog with fear issues involves feeding.
a fearful do will probably not eat in public and will refuse treats even if it is hungry.
- so start feeding it in different places than where it gets its normal meals with the end goal to be feeding it meals in crowded public areas 
- depending on how bad the dog is, this may mean a different part of the house or in the front yard. but you should be able to know when it is expecting a full meal, and then do it in places the dog is not so comfortable with
- confront the fear by feeding near distractions rather then in the same ole same ole (secure) place
- a dog is usually most happy when it's eating and can't worry about stuff and eat at the same time ... their brain is too small 

what's simple for normal dogs is a challenge for fearful ones...get creative and challenge them constantly. i've found it will start having a positive effect on them


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

reactivity does not have to be associated with any sort of fearfulness, although it often is..

it is more lacking of natural restraint, and is more a handler influenced training and control issue, than barometer for courage, or good nerves, at least in most cases I see, with good dogs...

a good but reactive dog needs to be trained not to react to certain things, which is doable, since the reactions are not fear based, or due to lacking of nerve or courage.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> reactivity does not have to be associated with any sort of fearfulness, although it often is..
> 
> it is more lacking of natural restraint, and is more a handler influenced training and control issue, than barometer for courage, or good nerves, at least in most cases I see, with good dogs...
> 
> a good but reactive dog needs to be trained not to react to certain things, which is doable, since the reactions are not fear based, or due to lacking of nerve or courage.


I have to agree with Joby...IMHO, a true fearful dog is one that is going to flee not fight whenever possible unless cornered...fight or flight, which is based on the basic instinct of self preservation to the animal, any animal, wild or domestic. Some breeds have been bred to where they have lost the "self preservation" instinct and truly enjoy the fight....ie, hog dogs....they get all aggressive and crazy at the sight or smell of one....does that mean they are fearful of it? I think not...Same with some of the breeds used for man work...they love the fight with the man, they live for it....active forward aggression is not the same as fear aggression, although a lot of dogs that fearful are reactive and aggressive, not all reactive dogs are doing it based out of fear.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

aren't most of these type of dogs after further investigation from owners mostly due to lack of socialization and upbringing....for the most part


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

What type of dog Kevin?

the fearful or the reactive?

Max


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## Jennifer Andress (Sep 4, 2013)

Okay, so...

I'm not going to pretend to have nearly as much experience as some of you guys. I'm putting this out there more along the lines of "here is a case study, this is what we did, maybe something in it will be useful to you," not as a blanket recommendation or how-to.

In that spirit, here is the tale of Pongu the Insane, my first dog and current competition muppet.

I adopted Pongu from a city shelter when he was 16 weeks old. This is what he looked like then:



















Had I not been a complete freaking noob, I might have thought: "hmm! this puppy is completely petrified with terror! perhaps this is not a good sign for my life down the road!"

But I was in fact a complete freaking noob and thought something along the lines of "aww poor scared puppy _I will save you!_"

protip: this is a stupid reason to get a dog

I quickly discovered that my dog was insane. On top of being severely fearful, he is/was OCD and prone to self-mutilation. This was an _awesome_ combination with me being a first-time owner. Fortunately(?), I'm too stubborn to quit and too stupid to comprehend what I was trying to do.

Our early trainers told us never to expect that he'd set foot in any kind of competition ring; our early behaviorists said he was borderline unadoptable. They were not lying. The first time I took him to a pet manners class, he spent the entire six weeks hiding behind a barrier at the back of the room, shaking and shedding uncontrollably... once he gave up trying to bolt for the door.

We got into dog sports because I read in a bunch of books that this was supposed to be a good thing to do to build up your fearful dog's confidence. It took a while to find sports he could do, but we figured it out eventually.

Pongu is now a little over three and a half years old. I started trialing with him in World Cynosport (formerly APDT) Rally 14 months ago and in CDSP obedience last weekend. He is presently ARCHX TDCH Pongu the Insane, RL1X2, RL2X, RL3 (AOE); 2013 was our first full year in competition and I think we have a pretty good chance of being nationally ranked in our division at the end of the year. I anticipate we'll finish his RL1X3 and RL2X2 titles tomorrow and we'll probably finish his CD-C next weekend. I _hope_ to finish his ARCHEX this year (but who knows if that'll happen). In 2014 I'll start moving into AKC Rally and CDSP Open and Utility, in 2015 I hope to be trialing in AKC obedience.

It has been a long, tedious, and occasionally dispiriting slog to get here, but this is Pongu today:



















...so, you know, he's doing a _little_ bit better.

Pongu is still not a "normal" dog, let alone a brave one. He never will be. He's not a dog who will ever be able to do flyball or dock diving or IPO. He is always going to be more than a little bit bananas. But he can do _some_ things, and he can do them pretty well.

This is how we got there:

(1) Relationship. The most important thing and the hardest to reproduce. Pongu is where he is today because he has a tremendous amount of trust in me, and knowing that, I do my utmost to never violate that trust. So often, I can see that he's trying his best to overcome his fears because he knows I want him to do that and he's willing to work his crazed little heart out for me even when it scares him half to death.

I don't know to tell someone to build relationship. This is so individual to the dog and the handler. But you need that foundation to do anything else.

(2) Relaxation exercises. I was lucky in that Leslie McDevitt is/was an instructor at our first sport club. I used a bunch of stuff from Control Unleashed and worked with her personally for more help, and it made a tremendous difference for us. We also worked Dr. Overall's Relaxation Protocol.

I put Pongu's deep breathing on cue (via clicker capturing) so that I could literally have him "take a deep breath" and calm himself down before competition. Here is a youtube of our early efforts -- watch for the nostril flare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atl2J9gqMAE

(3) Trick work, all clicker taught. Built his confidence and made me a better trainer. It can seem like a waste of time because it doesn't directly correlate to competition behaviors (although sometimes it can; our Margarita Trick uses the same underlying scent discrimination as Utility scent articles, and teaching Pongu to walk up the stairs backwards improved his rear-end awareness tremendously, which helped with the backward heeling exercises in Rally), but in the long run it pays off in spades.

(4) Finding supportive people and keeping a training journal for sanity checks when I started losing my mind. It helps to have a written record that in fact your dog used to be worse in the past, because there will be days when it is totally inconceivable that this dog could ever have sucked worse than he did today. It also helps to talk to people who have pushed through obstacles with their own Problem Dogs and come out successful on the other side.

(5) Practice practice practice oh god more practice. Every time we moved up a level in Rally, I'd have to suck up dozens of NQs as Pongu freaked out over whatever was new and hard for him in that level. It took us six or seven NQs to earn our Level 2 title and then another six or seven NQs to earn our ARCH and 22 NQs to earn our Level 3 title (by that point I was actually tracking these things out of morbid curiosity). In 14 months, I think we've earned over 50 NQs in Rally. If they have an award for "most NQs racked up in a year" I bet we'd win #1 worldwide for 2013, and I am not kidding about that.

But you can't care about that. Failure is just "practice" under another name. Eat those NQs like they are candy and go back for more.

And you can't let the dog know you're disappointed. Attitude is so key with a fearful dog that I just had to grit my teeth and put on a smile and have a BIG PARTY!! that Pongu even went into the building without melting down, even if secretly I was thinking about punting him off the top of the parking garage.

(6) Choose your venues wisely. We do Rally because the low levels don't involve a ton of distance work and there isn't much scary equipment. We started in WCR because it allows the use of treats in the rings at certain specific points, which is super important for reinforcing to a scaredy dog that the ring is in fact a good place to be. Similarly, CDSP allows limited use of treats and praise in the ring, so that's where we're beginning Pongu's obedience career. We will move to AKC when and if his confidence doesn't need quite so many crutches. In the meantime, I'm grateful to have venues that let me do ANYTHING with my crazypants dog.

So that's what we did, and that's where we are right now, and we still have a long LONG way to go... but if nothing else, this experience will have taught me to be super damn grateful for the next dog I get, and also to not care about NQs anymore. Much. Mostly.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I think that genetics play a huge role in a dogs fight / flight reaction. Iv worked / owned dogs that were fearful of a small number of stimuli and others that were fearful to a greater number. Iv had dogs that got over their fears and others that were never able to significantly change. 

My last GSD I purchased at 5 months raised in the breeders home with kids other dogs etc, she was a nerve bag right from the get go. Very Human Aggressive / Dog Aggressive, I knew she had issues but I was cocky and figured I would work her through whatever issues she had and get her to do bitework. I used marker training to teach most of the obedience. I spent about a year with her. I took this dog everywhere parks, dog parks, camping, cities, family visits, you name it she went there.

She had decent food drive, so we would go to places where we ran into other dogs and people. I would consistently feed her in those areas. I would get her closer to various stimuli and feed her when she initially saw the stimuli and continue feeding her as we got closer. If she reacted I would redirect her and feed her. 
I would also correct her reaction to the stimuli this included growling, barking, lunging etc. 

She had low/mediocre drive and was willing to play tug. We played a lot of tug, she would be allowed to win constantly. After a bit we began transplanting our play to public places, schutzhund field, parks etc. She would do this as long as the stimuli was not to close. We worked closer and closer and were able to decrease her threshold but there was always a limit before the play lacked confidence and became unreliable. 

I brought her out to the schutzhund field regularly were she was exposed to other dogs and people. She would take food from strangers there, but would go into fear biter mode if anyone other then me attempted to play tug with her.

I trained her to an E Collar, had her off leash everywhere parks, the burbs, and even in the city. I had her to the point where I could take her to the dog park and have her loose there. I used the collar to correct any aggressive reactions.

I would say her obedience was fairley reliable under distraction. She was never completely trustworthy, she attempted to bite my two young children (who dont live with me) a time or two when they would visit. I strongly corrected any aggression towards them.

She attempted to bite on numerous occassions and did actually nip a family member.

THINGS THAT NEVER CHANGED:

She was the type of dog that would appear to relax and take food from someone, take food from me do some OB etc. Then react to the person who had been with us the entire time and try to bite. As our helper would say "she changes her mind"..lol. 
She would react to dogs, then after being introduced would play with them confidently for an hour. Meets the same dog and would react again be introduced and play as if nothing happened. Rinse and repeat. She would go to the dog park. Never without an E Collar and after the intial nonsense at the gate would be playing with all the dogs. She would do OB in the park off leash. However, put her in the car for a bit take her out and she would become fear aggressive a gain. 
Same deal with people but even worse. My kids would walk her on a leash and she would be happy go lucky, they would go play in the playground then come back to us and she would become fear aggressive.

I decided to sell her because she would never get to the point were bitework would have been a good idea. She would also have always been a liability around kids. 
Her obedience was good, we probably could have done agility or rally but Im not interested in sports that dont include bitework. We did manage to improve her thresholds and decrease her aggression. 

However she never would have been a dog to trust in my opinion and that of others who knew her. If I ever produce a pup like her down the road I will put it down.


On the other hand I have had and worked with dogs that where not as bad that were able to get over a lot of their issues with exposure and counter conditioning. She is still the worst case I have ever encountered though I am sure there are worse. I think the speed a dog gets over its issues is generally an indicator of how much is to do with genetics and how much is experience.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Kudos to both of you Haz and Jennifer. Your story just confirms what was said above and are good example.

Happy training

Max


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I should mention also the dog Im talking about above was more attached to me then others I have had...and she had no issues being picked up by me or the GF.. I really didnt do anything special to build a relationship with her, just how she was.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The #1 thing I'm seeing is dogs that have inability to tolerate environment induced stress with the result being either fear/flight or aggression. With a couple of these I know its genetic because you could see it very early in the whelping box--inability to change environments or tolerate new things in the environment. The socialization began week two in the whelping box and continued for two years--still issues with change in the environment or new things in the environment. They have good food drive, are people and dog sound. One does seem to be more fearful in his owner's presence. It seems that the dogs with the high reactivity [high prey drive with a ramped nervous system] go into system overload and then it results in flight/fear or aggression. In a familiar environment certain sounds or visual stimuli don't bother them. Environmentally stressed and those same sounds or visual stimuli will cause stress/fear.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

some more specifics of how i work a fearful dog around people :

1. i do not let new people ever try and attempt to tug with either a fearful dog or a confident dog
2. ime, little kids need as much if not more control than dogs. if i'm around kids i work on them first way before the dog will ever get close. i don't care what their parents sat or do ... if "I" can't control them they will never get close. if a parent allows their kid to approach me and a dog without holding their hand, it's a total NON starter and i try to tell the parent(s) in a nice way how stupid that is
3. i never allow people to pet or touch a fearful dog ... never ... i DO teach the dog to put its head down wherever i tell it to, and hold that position. so i will often do that when a person who wants to meet the dog gets down on a knee or is sitting down.....at first, it does not progress any farther, but eventually the dog will usually get stable enuff so i can grab the person's hand and pet the dog while i hold their hand
4. and i always position myself between the person and the dog...always
5. i teach all dogs a hand touch ... their nose to my flat palm....in a variety of high and low positions...when they get reliable at that i will hold a person's hand out and get the dog to touch it after i explain what i will be doing...good way for a fearful dog to actually move forward towards a stranger and actually make physical contact with them without conflict

doing little things like this is how i can get a dog to interact even if it is mostly still interaction with "me" 

btw, i think on this forum we have gotten beyond using the explanation of " desensitizing and counter conditioning " for how we work with dogs. it is MUCH more interesting to hear specifics of HOW you do this ... at least to me 

i know you can't reverse a genetic condition but i do feel there is always ways to improve a dog's behavior and sometimes the little stuff really adds up and helps a lot when you have a specific plan in mind and work the plan with consistent patience

i'm sorry if all this stuff seems too trivial or boring to be of any use, but it's all stuff i do and it has helped dogs i've worked with


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

...typo re: my last :
"parents sat or do"
should be : what parents saY or do


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and i know this thread is about fearful dogs, but i do practically the same stuff with confident dogs when they meet new people so i think it applies most of the time with most dogs
....but i would suspect many people will not agree with that ... so feel free to post a counter point


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: walking fearful dogs ....

my walking style will also vary a LOT ... the more fearful, the faster i walk. yes it looks dorky, but ask me if i care 
.... no stops til we hit open space, with lots of in/outs and turns so the dog must pay attention to and focus on me

so even tho i agree in principle with the "start at a non reactive distance and slowly decrease the range, etc", by walking fast i can challenge the dog quicker based on (my assumption) that they can't concentrate on too many things at once 

i will set the pace just below the threshold of draggin it, but also being careful to avoid allowing it to get into a "panic run" mode //lol//
- in this way i can get the dog closer to people quicker and see faster progress
- and there are many ways to raise the bar doing this


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

I also want to add that there are "phases" that puppies go through as they develop...there are quite few "fear" stages that are not genetic nor is it environmental...it is just the way they develop....and you can make or break a dog during these fear stages...I have a dogo b*tch that is genetically a fear aggressive dog...saw it when I got her at 11 weeks old and no matter what training, socializing, desenitizing I did, she is still fear aggressive, and basically will amount to nothing but a junk yard type dog. Here is a link to the stages of development from first night to first year of a puppy..Von Falconer K9 wrote this...
http://www.vonfalconer.com/articles/2/article/3

human babies go through developmental stages also, and you can also make or break a child if one of those stages is not satisfied or met ..done by a guy named Erik Erikson
http://nursing-resource.com/erik-eriksons-stages-of-psychological-development/


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Maureen, your above post is generalizing too much.

I have seen a lot of puppies growing without going trough "phases".

Further, being unsure is not the same as fearful, recovery time being the difference

Happy training

Max


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

I don't think I am being too general....everything goes through some sort of developmental stages, and there are "milestones" ( I think that is the proper term) for most if not all animal species that if x happens or doesnt happen during y period, z result will or wont happen....why are there so many people now when raising working puppies put them through all sorts of exposures at such eary ages now? People werent doing that years ago and people realized that exposing and doing x,y,z at really young ages produces better working dog. Genetics comes into play also, dont get me wrong...a dog with bad genes can only go so far no matter how well you expose it. Another great example of a critical exposure period would be when a chicken or parrot hatches out of the egg....the first thing that bird sees is what it imprints as it parent...proven fact....you might not have seen a pup in a fear stage being that it wasnt exposed to something that would cause it to be fearful, or its reaction was so minute that it went unnoticed...everything goes through critical developmental stages


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Hallo Maureen,

you are talking about a different subject now, that is conditioning and exposure, we can talk about it if you like.

My reply to you was about the fear "phases" you mentioned above, stating that I have own and worked several pups that did not go trough any.

Let me explain what I define "fearful"

Fearful is a dog that reacts by running away or avoiding the source of fear, when given a chance. Also the dog that tries to impress you with a show of aggression, either barking or biting (usually very short bite and release) with subsequent flee or avoidance.

If a dog is unsure or gets startled, but recovers quickly I dont consider "fearful", just not as solid as the ones that does not.

Happy training


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## john simmons (Jan 20, 2010)

All very good input and some ingenious ideas! Nice to see a positive, helpful post! Something I do- I have a very social, confident dog that I use to help me train fearful/ reactive dogs. I find that the fearful dogs will look to other dogs before looking to a human. I have had some good success with this in scenarios of people/ dog interactions and to help with environmental negative reactivity. I've actually had a dog that was weary of meeting strangers. After this dog would watch my dog "love up" on the stranger, I started to see a form of "jealousy" form and the fearful dog started to initiate the contact first before my dog could!! On complete strangers! Once I removed my dog from the equation I found the fear and reactivity still there but not nearly as intense and the dogs recovery to the boogeyman was much faster. I have had varying degrees of success with this approach...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

john simmons said:


> All very good input and some ingenious ideas! Nice to see a positive, helpful post! Something I do- I have a very social, confident dog that I use to help me train fearful/ reactive dogs. I find that the fearful dogs will look to other dogs before looking to a human. I have had some good success with this in scenarios of people/ dog interactions and to help with environmental negative reactivity. I've actually had a dog that was weary of meeting strangers. After this dog would watch my dog "love up" on the stranger, I started to see a form of "jealousy" form and the fearful dog started to initiate the contact first before my dog could!! On complete strangers! Once I removed my dog from the equation I found the fear and reactivity still there but not nearly as intense and the dogs recovery to the boogeyman was much faster. I have had varying degrees of success with this approach...


I actually used Khira-bouv in this regard to help build the confidence of one dog. I wouldn't say jealousy was the motivator but definitely "if she can, maybe I can too." I've seen confident puppy take on the fears of a fearful other dog [learned fear] so decided to try learned confidence.

T


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