# Soft Bite



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i have a quick question, my year old german shepherd has a soft bite when it comes to thicker tugs ( which i build myself , uni student) . so for example if im playing tug with a sock he will bite pretty hard cant get it off him etc, however if i roll up a newspaper and put it into the sock , ie thicker tug, his bite becomes a lot softer and i can pull it out of his mouth pretty easily. its like he doesnt like the feeling of thicker things in his mouth. what to do????????????


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

post a video...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> i have a quick question, my year old german shepherd has a soft bite when it comes to thicker tugs ( which i build myself , uni student) . so for example if im playing tug with a sock he will bite pretty hard cant get it off him etc, however if i roll up a newspaper and put it into the sock , ie thicker tug, his bite becomes a lot softer and i can pull it out of his mouth pretty easily. its like he doesnt like the feeling of thicker things in his mouth. what to do????????????


 
when and how did you start his bite training...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

These aren't the droids you're looking for.....



Goals? Sport? PP?

Simple answer. Don't let him pick what he likes. You pick a harder surface and that's all he gets. It just leaves him to bite what you have, not what he wants. There are a variety of ways to get the dog to bite, that's just the general idea. If he has nothing else, he'll bite it to interact with you. Use the hard surface similar to the sock. IE play the same.

Be prepared prior to the session that he will not want to bite. Understand that and have a plan. IE if he doesn't bite, put him away, and don't let him play. Or if he bites in a mediocre fashion the first time, tease him for a while, get one good bite and put him away. Done session finished. Have simple goals.

He may be more comfortable biting 6 feet away. tie the harder surface to a line and get it further away from you. You can learn to make the toy look like the happy bunny and incite some prey chasing behavior...

Have fun.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Find an experienced person to test your dog and evaluate how you're playing tug. Also make sure there isn't a physical problem with teeth or jaw or ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

it's not a quick question and socks aren't tugs 
learn what a FP (flirt pole) is as compared to tugging 

learn how to get the dog to enjoy tugging with a variety of tugs
dave mentioned the overall method
make a plan and work the plan
if you're serious and can post em, vids DO help as joby pointed out


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

had a dog with this problem before and it was a matter of using what the others have said and that was bite it or dont play i also had a lot of success using one of my other dogs(have them tied out) who will bite anything you put in front of him very hard and when the softer mouth dog would slip it i would throw it over to the other dog who would gladly chomp it and it would either build drive or frustration and desire to have it back in a short period of time the dog was biting hard on any object problem solved for this dog anyway.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

He's not biting the sock hard, he just closing his mouth and you are able to tug harder with him merely holding on. Besides, how hard can one bite a sock? (Not a question to you)
Some dogs have a soft mouth, they are in every breed of dog whether desired or not, that's just my opinion. They can be made better but I think dogs are either hard biters or there not. You can build up the bite but it will never be a OMG bite. Again my opinion and inhibition sometimes plays a role


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

You can't evaluate a dogs bite based on how hard he bites when he plays with his owner. Gwrgenau will barely play tug with me even now. (He prefers chasing a ball) Anyone else puts on a sleeve or a suit and he will crush it. He drags suit decoys off their feet. No one will work him on anything but a trial sleeve. That's why I suggested the OP have the dog evaluated and tested by an experienced third party


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

My dog is completely different, the harder the sleeve, the harder she bites. by necessity, I have to take a lot of the bites, and mine has no problem biting me, and doing it hard. I've heard that some won't, but definitely not a problem i have


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Some dogs like biting their owners, some don't. As long as he bites the decoys HARD. I don't have a problem with that.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

No, I don't either, mine just doesn't care. I do think on a long run she will pull up a little on me, with someone else, she hits pretty hard.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Some dogs like biting their owners, some don't. As long as he bites the decoys HARD. I don't have a problem with that.


 
Do you know why he won't bite you? The one with all the extra consonants in his name. Just curious.

Is he conditioned not too, or do you not provide something he needs to want to bite. Not a dig at you at all (other than the dogs name), I find it interesting why a dog is inhibited with it's owner, and not a decoy. To me, although not playing with a toy with me is a pain in the butt, not biting me is ideal in my own dog, that is trained to bite. 

I have to fake a fight with my boxer to get him to bite a tug well. With a decoy, he seems all about it without much stimulation.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I think it's a combination of not being comfortable biting his owner/master/friend and I just don't stimulate his prey drive enough. He seems to work mainly in active aggression.
My two Dobermanns work in prey for the most part and have no problem playing tug with me. I just wish the Flannchadh bit as hard as Gwrgenau ;-)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I think it's a combination of not being comfortable biting his owner/master/friend and I just don't stimulate his prey drive enough. He seems to work mainly in active aggression.
> My two Dobermanns work in prey for the most part and have no problem playing tug with me. I just wish the Flannchadh bit as hard as Gwrgenau ;-)


 

God bless your consonant laden dogs!!! Happy Turkey Day.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Happy Thanksgiving to you too and the rest of the WDF


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I like the idea of the "harder surface worked on a line". Much like a flirt pole to get a less then enthusiastic dog excited.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

its not that he doesnt want to bite it, he runs , jumps and hits hard, but when its in his mouth soft bite. he doesnt have jaw problems he pulled a large coffee table around the backyard for example ( he broke into the garage etc). also i dont think its cause the surface is hard, for example he'll bite a thin stick a lot harder then he will a rolled up newspaper ( which is about 5 cm in diameter) it could be cause his not use to it, ill stick to playing with thicker objects for awhile. i was just wondering if its common for dogs to bite softer when there mouth is opened wider? 
question on the side, how necessary is prey drive in training a security dog, just curious?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> its not that he doesnt want to bite it, he runs , jumps and hits hard, but when its in his mouth soft bite. he doesnt have jaw problems he pulled a large coffee table around the backyard for example ( he broke into the garage etc). also i dont think its cause the surface is hard, for example he'll bite a thin stick a lot harder then he will a rolled up newspaper ( which is about 5 cm in diameter) it could be cause his not use to it, ill stick to playing with thicker objects for awhile. i was just wondering if its common for dogs to bite softer when there mouth is opened wider?
> question on the side, how necessary is prey drive in training a security dog, just curious?


 
If you are trying to train him for security. Sell him and buy a new dog. It's not like you'd go build a gun without knowing how and try and use it on the same security job. 

At the very least, find local help.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

local help hahhaha, i live in sydney. enough said


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> local help hahhaha, i live in sydney. enough said


maybe buy a video....ha ha..

good luck. just saying it's difficult to train a lot of stuff without help. Hope you find a way!!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

you should try the specialist k9 board or ultimate working dog forum..
both have lots of members from Australia on them.

shoot some vid...really hard to even try to make suggestions just based on what you are saying...if people can SEE what you are doing, might help a little...


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## Michael Howard (Nov 8, 2012)

Any background info, like is he working stock or show lines, when did you start this sort of training etc. For me, I probably wouldn't use such a quick transition from soft article to hard article. In Schutzhund we have a progression of soft pads and sleeves to hard competition sleeves. However what I would do is to get the dog biting an old tea towel and as the dog gets really confident at each session, start to twist the towel up first very loosely and then tighter until you eventually end up with a very tight twist that is quite hard. Then you can move onto other bite pads and sleeves or even a dummy arm, such as an old coat sleeve stuffed with rags. Enjoy yourself, don't over worry about it:wink:


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I would wonder first of all what the dog has been taught to do after he bites. Ideally the dog should be trained to pull. It is pretty difficult to have anything but a hard grip if the dog is pulling. If the tug goes dead then they are less likely to continue to have a hard bite.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

yea his working lines , http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1325973 thats him. i like the towel idea, ill give that a try. he pulls when its a rag etc when its a rolled up newspaper in the sock, what i do is i hold it from both sides so he bites the middle, then he pulls very little, sometimes just holds it in his mouth or re-bites. if i hold it from only one side though and he bites the end of it he does pull a bit harder .


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i should have just bought one of those pre-trained pups http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UEdYC4zlnA dont need to train them, just let them go and get some popcorn lol


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Hi Micheal since you live where you have little or no help. I'd really recommend the foundation puppy bitework DVD from Micheal Ellis or look for one from Canine Training Systems. I know you are a student and don't have a lot of cash but doing the initial foundation for bite work wrong will mess up your dog's bite work forever even if you get with a person with experience to help you down the line. What you are doing now may or may not be able to be redone. Sometimes it is better to do nothing than to train wrong. 

A young dog like yours at 12 months is on the cusp of not being a puppy any more. So should be well along and all you are doing is reinforcing bad habits, they will learn bad habits at this age just as quick as good ones. You need to take a step back and come up with a way to understand what is going on, not just do things all willy nilly. So a experienced person or DVD will help. 

Another thing lose the damn sock stuffed with newsprint! It isn't doing you or him any favours get a jute covered 3 handled bite wedge from Gappay or Redline they are like $30-40 tops even in Ozzdollars. You can build many of the exercises with that simple piece of equipment. As well as grips and even targeting with it.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> I would wonder first of all what the dog has been taught to do after he bites. Ideally the dog should be trained to pull. It is pretty difficult to have anything but a hard grip if the dog is pulling. If the tug goes dead then they are less likely to continue to have a hard bite.


Micheal what Steve says here is a good point in the IPO world. You need back pressure on the tug or the dog is back tied. All of this would be shown to you in a DVD or by someone with experience. It sounds like your dog doesn't want the current toy and you need to build his want to possess it. That requires back pressure and more interaction from you to keep it from him. Then you only reward him and mark the behaviour when he has it. Soon enough he will understand what you want. 

Here is a video of my young dog when he was a pup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viMqjxSdeeg I am not looking for the same things as people are when doing IPO, since I do Ringsport. So I am not worried about the head thrash as that is just prey drive which I want at this stage. I do want the dog to want to possess the item and grip hard and full though. You can see me multiple times put back pressure and make the toy alive by doing so. He wins the toy when he is gripping hard and has a full bite that's how I mark the behaviour. I can tell when he is gripping hard when I put the back pressure (you can feel it) and always he wins at this age. The pup just wants to keep pushing the toy into me to make it alive so he can continue the game. I lose it at the end where he starts to regrip he was probably getting fatigued by that point, my fault but at least you can see the gist of what I am talking about. The toy is a French Linen Grip builder we still use this exact same toy almost 3 years later with this same dog for many things still. Though I prefer a 3 handled bite wedge now as I mentioned in my other post.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

you need something soft but with volume. then use some of the techniques mentioned above. rolled up newspaper is very hard. people have used newspaper as hidden sleeve material.


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## Rob Kringel (Aug 2, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> You can't evaluate a dogs bite based on how hard he bites when he plays with his owner. Gwrgenau will barely play tug with me even now. (He prefers chasing a ball) Anyone else puts on a sleeve or a suit and he will crush it. He drags suit decoys off their feet. No one will work him on anything but a trial sleeve. That's why I suggested the OP have the dog evaluated and tested by an experienced third party


I agree with this. I don't know if is internal conflect with fighting against his handler or if is a lack of threat, but my dog will play tug with me with a very soft grip. However when working on a sleave with a helper he is a different dog. He is very intense and powerful with a strong hard bite.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> You can't evaluate a dogs bite based on how hard he bites when he plays with his owner. Gwrgenau will barely play tug with me even now. (He prefers chasing a ball) Anyone else puts on a sleeve or a suit and he will crush it. He drags suit decoys off their feet. No one will work him on anything but a trial sleeve. That's why I suggested the OP have the dog evaluated and tested by an experienced third party


My elder GSD was nearly reluctant to bite on a tug with me but I reckoned it would sort itself out.

It did.

At 9 months' old biting for the first time with the helper, the helper changed the young dog sleeve for a stronger one as he felt the pain!!

This is from dog to dog indiviudal and I would say no reason to worry. Play with him and wait until you can visit a competent helper.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> yea his working lines , http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1325973 thats him. i like the towel idea, ill give that a try. he pulls when its a rag etc when its a rolled up newspaper in the sock, what i do is i hold it from both sides so he bites the middle, then he pulls very little, sometimes just holds it in his mouth or re-bites. if i hold it from only one side though and he bites the end of it he does pull a bit harder .


I know of someone else with littermate to this dog and have heard of others and some bite well so i would heed the advice of others and start researching how to work your dog and get a jute wedge or something.I also know of another half brother of his and he has alot of bite and drive so keep at it.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

There are a few tricks to get the dog to pull after the bite if he is just passively holding it. One is to pick straight up on the tug, another is to tap on his toes with your foot another is to blow in his face.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> There are a few tricks to get the dog to pull after the bite if he is just passively holding it. One is to pick straight up on the tug, another is to tap on his toes with your foot another is to blow in his face.


 
Find some help. Any one of these things done, improperly can cause real problems. Real problems = not biting well, ever. THis is why I recommend finding GOOD help, in person. Not bad advice, but application is everything.

Have you ever whacked the dog with the news paper? Just a curiosity.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Rob Kringel said:


> I don't know if is internal conflect with fighting against his handler or if is a lack of threat, but my dog will play tug with me with a very soft grip. However when working on a sleave with a helper he is a different dog. He is very intense and powerful with a strong hard bite.



Probably both of the above Rob. This is why many including myself don't work our own dogs outside of the beginnings or just work a dog in prey drive so that it is a game. If Micheal is looking for that extra aggression that the threat of a strange helper brings pushing defense, he will never get it by working the dog himself. The dog just doesn't take him seriously to be able to push that aggression envelope. So he'd really have to just work the dog in prey. Bob was saying a flirt pole, (I like that idea) even a tug on a rope would probably work fine. At least until he can get some help, which I really think he needs.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

no i never hit him with a newspaper. to brad jones, if your talking about the litter mate that went to adelaide , THAT WAS MY PICK , passed all my tests, hangs on that rag at 5 weeks of age. got told later that he is one of the best gsd pups they have had. the one i got was the male i personally ranked 3rd , however much more experienced ppl then me at local ipo club said i should pick that one, "cause his more responsive" , long story short when i turned up to the ipo club i got told prey drive was a bit low, but enough to build from ahhhhhhhhhh. although in there defense on that day , the pups did act more consistently. its just so frustrating when i compare him to my cattle dog i had with my ex girlfriend (she owns it now). i could tie a bloody car tyre to a tree and he would bite it and try rip it down all day. current gsd that cost exactly 10 times as much, has multiple wusv and bsp competitors in his bloodline =D>, doesnt like biting too hard on a newspaper (the cattle dog would have torn it up) . 

all im saying is he better have awesome defense drive, and develop into a civil monster when he gets older [-(


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

to Brad Robert (sorry) lol


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i have a quick question, my year old german shepherd has a soft bite when it comes to thicker tugs ( which i build myself , uni student) . so for example if im playing tug with a sock he will bite pretty hard cant get it off him etc, however if i roll up a newspaper and put it into the sock , ie thicker tug, his bite becomes a lot softer and i can pull it out of his mouth pretty easily. its like he doesnt like the feeling of thicker things in his mouth. what to do????????????


Sooo, you make your own tugs out of socks? Then you stuff rolled up newspaper inside? No other stuffing or materials? How old is the dog? Has he/she been groomed on tug play and/or bitework in the past (foundation training)? What other materials have you used? Have you purchased an actual tug from a manufacturer in the past and used that? If so, how was the biting? What is the oral health like? Is this an adult dog with a full set of adult teeth? Maybe its you holding the tug as someone already mentioned. I haven't read all the posts, so forgive me if these have already been asked and answered. So many possibilities as to why he/she might not be biting hard. Good luck


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I think a lot of good pups with the right up bringing come out biting most objects properly and when they are pups you cant let them get use to biting one thing all the time or that will cause problems and a dog with very strong prey will bite just about anything hard.And yes i was talking about the dog in adelaide


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

have you considered that if a rolled newspaper in a sock made a good tug they would probably be made that way and sold ?
.. if you're gonna roll your own, buy the can am tugs you can fill with whatever you like ... you could even smoke em if the pup won't light em up

would your cattle dog hang on pvc pipes too, or just rags ?

your IPO experts familiar with the line you have ?

seriously, what do you think the diff between a FP and a tug is, and how would you use them ?

from what i've read, you seem to be a lot more knowledgeable about czech and Euro related gsd peds than pup work...
- i'm reading : buyer remorse and tunnel vision for biting, and why won't my pup show his civil side at xxx weeks, etc 

...but i'm probably way off in the eval of this problem but i also think you need some more tools in your bag and help from people who have worked with building PUPS from scratch ... 

good luck; hope you got the dog you wanted


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> yea his working lines , http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1325973 thats him. i like the towel idea, ill give that a try. he pulls when its a rag etc when its a rolled up newspaper in the sock, what i do is i hold it from both sides so he bites the middle, then he pulls very little, sometimes just holds it in his mouth or re-bites. if i hold it from only one side though and he bites the end of it he does pull a bit harder .


video this...


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