# Schutzhund Jump Training



## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

My GSD does well with his flat retreives and retrieves over the A-Frame but over teh 1 meter jump he hit it or refuses to jump altogether. If I lower it by one board he jumps it clearing over the 1 meter height but if I add teh board making it one meter he has problems.

I was told to keep him on the long line and jerk the prong collar to get him to jump. I would love to hear any suggestions on getting him over this hurdle. We just started trainign the jumps for about 1 1/2 months now. He is a quick learned and has excelled at record pace. Considering he is coming from a personal protection background, I am happy with his progress.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bad advice. You'll only do damage.

When you find a dog that is refusing a jump over a certain height (especially when training over 6 weeks), it is most likely because the dog has poor jumping form and is physically unable to jump the height, or expereinces pain on the landing. 

Dragging the dog over the jump is not only unfair, but could cause injury, and will cause learned behavior problems on jumps of all heights.

Can you post video of your dog jumping?


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Bad advice. You'll only do damage.
> 
> When you find a dog that is refusing a jump over a certain height (especially when training over 6 weeks), it is most likely because the dog has poor jumping form and is physically unable to jump the height, or expereinces pain on the landing.
> 
> ...


I'll have to get some video the next time we train. He has jumped over the 1 meter before but today ws a bad day and he refused to do so.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'll wait for the video. I'd like to see approx 18", 24", 30", 36", 38" and 40" (1 meter), _without_ the retrieve.

This video shows the type of camera angle that is best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTM5hViUuVc&feature=channel_page

The video is of a jump about 7 inches over a 1 meter jump. At the time I was pleased with the dog. Now I know it was a ridiculously low jump for the dog - he went on to clear hurdles a full foot over what is shown in the video. (58" or 1.47 meter)

I've never seen a refusal on a jump that wasn't due to a physical inability, physical pain, or poor training. Just because the dog made it over once, doesn't mean the dog will continue to be able to do it.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Will the dog jump over a jump to get a toy, or a bite? Or is it just for the dumb bell?

I have seen a dog refuse to jump because of ill placed punishment. But the factor of the jump being lowered is a bite strange....


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

You didn't mention how old the dog was or your progession in training the hurdle. I prefer teaching the dog proper jumping technique (take off, landing points, go over and come back over) and at a low jump height. Once the dog understands that, the dumbbells can be incorporated into the exercise.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

My GSD is 2 years old. He has had his hips checked and the are OFA excellent. He jumps on top of his dog house and does the A frame with eas; even scales an 7 1/2 foot wall at a boat loading dock with ease. 

I did start with lower heights trying to teach him correct jumping posture. He retrieves the dumbbell at every height even one board lower. He has jumped the one meter with and without the dumbbell but will not do it consistently. We have been teaching the jump for the last month. Now last week we did not work on the jumps at all and Sunday was the first time. So maybe I need to be more patient.

I have been told to keep it at the one meter height. Of course the guys I train with use a lot of compulsion and believe that a dog must perform.

I do not mind stepping back but I do not want him to hate this exercise. He is more than just my sport dog he is my buddy.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Mike Jones said:


> My GSD is 2 years old. He has had his hips checked and the are OFA excellent. He jumps on top of his dog house and does the A frame with eas; even scales an 7 1/2 foot wall at a boat loading dock with ease.
> 
> I did start with lower heights trying to teach him correct jumping posture. He retrieves the dumbbell at every height even one board lower. He has jumped the one meter with and without the dumbbell but will not do it consistently. We have been teaching the jump for the last month. Now last week we did not work on the jumps at all and Sunday was the first time. So maybe I need to be more patient.
> 
> ...


This is typical of a dog with a steep jump arc. I want to see video to confirm my suspicion.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Did you teach him the jumping simultaneously with retrieving? 

I teach my dogs to jump first and when they clear 1 m successfully I try them over 60 cm with dumbbell and if it works back to 1 m.

I hate the long line for jumping. The dog doesn't learn to jump clear of its own accrord. 

The 1 m hurdles with the top 10 cm "swinging" board can help to fix problems sometimes. Doesn't hurt the dog but usually he'll try to avoid knocking it as it's a disturbance for him.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The 1 m hurdles with the top 10 cm "swinging" board can help to fix problems sometimes. Doesn't hurt the dog but usually he'll try to avoid knocking it as it's a disturbance for him.



There's a problem with timing an adversive or correction a the moment the dog touches the jump.

It's too late.

The problem occurs before the dog is off the ground. The dog can't change it's path once it is in the air.

Before I had a decent understanding of jumping, I tried all those types of manipulations. Now that I know more, I consider them abusive. The dog is powerless to avoid the correction. The wrong behavior is marked.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Mike Jones said:


> I do not mind stepping back but I do not want him to hate this exercise. He is more than just my sport dog he is my buddy.


I'd step back and see when the behavior started. I agree with Annie, videos would be helpful. Do you have videos of him jumping? What is the distance of his takeoff point from the jump, where does he land? If he truly understands how to go over and come back with the dumbbell and just started refusals either something went wrong with your training method or something is hurting.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't believe in jumping a dog at full height other then a few times before a trial.
if they're confident and physically able then the extra height at trial time isn't an issue.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Anne, I see what you mean. the dog should be made to jump high enough from the moment he pushes off the ground with his hind legs. All I can say is that the optimal jumping distance should be discerned before "proper" training. I let mine jump in the woods. I still do. I make them jump over fallen tree trunks but I make sure they don't "stand" on the trunk.

I guess it's hard once the dog starts "touching" but in actual fact, if it's "built up" first, one can see how much distance the dog needs to jump clearly. Hence "line-training" with command is counter-productive in my mind.

Bob, some wait until the dog is pretty well developed and then use the 1 m hurdle. You don't have to go for SchH 1 at the minium age. However, I'm all for not over-taxing the dog with something it can - can it jump the 1m? ok it can - no need for excess. Same with the A-frame. My dogs are healthy but I maybe can work them after 7 years if I don't overdo it. I still can't trust the fact that I have athletic dogs. Daft - but then SchH never did "test" them sufficiently.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I don't believe in jumping a dog at full height other then a few times before a trial.
> if they're confident and physically able then the extra height at trial time isn't an issue.


Bob,

I like your approach, I normally practice a low heights. However once every two weeks or so I put it up to 1 meter and he jumps with no problem. Perhaps or last training session was just a bad day. You use the same method articulated in this Leerburg video one of the trainers I work with gave me to watch.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I was having a simular problem awhile back. He's a nut for the jump or A-Frame. What I discovered was I was starting him too close to the jump. Simply moving back a foot or two gave him better speed and launched further from the jump.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> I was having a simular problem awhile back. He's a nut for the jump or A-Frame. What I discovered was I was starting him too close to the jump. Simply moving back a foot or two gave him better speed and launched further from the jump.


Edward - a common misconception. The problem is too steep of a jump arc. Manipulating the situation on goes *so* far, versus teaching the dog correct jumping.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Feel free to straighten me out if I'm giving advice counter productive to Schutzhund training hurdles . I'm not familiar with how the initial training for this is done in Schutzhund . 

In my PSD certification the dog has to jump 4 different types of hurdles with no retrieve . Like what I've read so far we start with shorter ones and work our way up usually using about 6 hurdles in a row during training . 

When training other dogs for this I usually see the reason for a dog touching the tops of the hurdles being the initial training was done with the handler running along side the dog too slow inhibitting the dogs jumping . The dog then got used to this way of jumping the hurdles . 

I encouraged my handlers to run as fast as they can with the dog as they are jumping the hurdles . With my current dog I do this on lead and off . He's been doing it for years and loves it . I can hear him whinnig to keep up with me as we race to the end where he knows he's going to be rewarded . 

Just an idea . I hope it might help . If not I apologise for giving advice on a subject I know very little about . I usually try to avoid doing so .


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I would not run with a dog to encourage it to jump. I firmly believe that a dog must be a "thinking" jumper. Luring and chasing aren't helpful.

Chasing the handler encourages poor form and "circular" jumping.

I've found that the fastest way to teach jumping and jump form is splitting it down to the most basic behaviors. 

Teaching the dog to GO THROUGH the jump uprights first can save much time later on the retrieve over a jump. It helps get the dog thinking.

If a touch pad will be used, this is a good time. Teaching the dog to enter the jump from many angles is a must for those retreives over the jump. If your dumbbell bounces to the side on trial day, your dog will have the training sufficient to find the jump and come back over it.

Low jumps are important to build confindence. If you are lucky, your dog will have good form. If you are not so lucky, this is the time to introduce jump rings to modify the dog's jump arc. Problems start becoming apparant at twice the dog's height. If a problem is discovered, go BACK to the 2" jump and fix it before progressing.

Over-jumping is a serious problem. Your dog can get hurt jumping! Warm-ups and stretching before and after are an important habit to get into.

If you jump our dog too much, expect your dog's max height jump to drop by 25% for one to two weeks.

Obviously, I have plenty to say on the topic. :lol: I'll sit on my hands again now... :lol:


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Edward - a common misconception. The problem is too steep of a jump arc. Manipulating the situation on goes *so* far, versus teaching the dog correct jumping.


I realized it was too step of an arc, he would get too close and jump almost straight up, I also realize now that I began training the jump with the only goal being clearing 1 meter. Stepping back, reduce the arc, increased forward momentum, and made for a better jump. All I can say is it worked for my dog. My former TD had this idea that if you only train at 1/2 or 3/4 the dog will refuse the 1 meter on trial day. Same strange idea's about the A-Frame. He took the leash from me and literally dragged my puppy over it. I was pissed and that's the day I started to wonder if he had a clue.

To just say that it's a common misconception, without knowing what distances I start the dog at leaves me wondering.

I don't routinely do a full 1 meter jump, more like 3/4 meter.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

When this scenario occurs, the common thing is for the handler to mainpulate the start distance. The DOG needs to be manipulating the start distance, or the dog won't jump with better than 80% consistency.

I do routine training at 1/2 or 3/4 of the actual jump. My previous dogs jumped 54" - 58." That's just too much stress to put on the dog constantly and I didn't want to spring for landing mats. I never had a problem with randomly upping the jump a foot or so because they were "thinking jumpers."


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> When this scenario occurs, the common thing is for the handler to mainpulate the start distance. The DOG needs to be manipulating the start distance, or the dog won't jump with better than 80% consistency.
> 
> I do routine training at 1/2 or 3/4 of the actual jump. My previous dogs jumped 54" - 58." That's just too much stress to put on the dog constantly and I didn't want to spring for landing mats. I never had a problem with randomly upping the jump a foot or so because they were "thinking jumpers."


Jumping shouldn't pose a problem with a healthy dog. I think most handlers like to see their dogs jump - it's an easy exercise and brings quick results but not always the right ones.

I fully agree with your first sentence.

I let my dogs jump over tree trunks, etc. in the woods, over an agility hurdle I bought but quite honestly, why start jumping until the dog is 12 months or more. Why start with the lower jumps - why not start with the 1 m? maybe here is the problem. 

First off, don't teach jumping with retrieving!!


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## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Low jumps are important to build confindence. If you are lucky, your dog will have good form. If you are not so lucky, this is the time to introduce jump rings to modify the dog's jump arc. Problems start becoming apparant at twice the dog's height. If a problem is discovered, go BACK to the 2" jump and fix it before progressing.


What are "jump rings" which you suggest will modify the dog's jump arc?


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Esther Chai said:


> What are "jump rings" which you suggest will modify the dog's jump arc?


I think this refers to a similarity to an agility "tire" jump. The dog learns to jump through the center so a more rounded vs steep arc.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Esther Chai said:


> What are "jump rings" which you suggest will modify the dog's jump arc?



I use hula hoops. 

First I teach the dog to run throught the rings. I hold them together in one hand. Then a low jump. Then I start to separate the rings so the dog must adjust the jump arc. I can start to use two jump sticks - I used PVC pipe in place of the rings also. Then I can take is all back to a hurdle to get the right jump arc over the hurdle. Fade out the jump sticks until you've got a correct jump arc.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Two year old dog with excellent hips cannot jump a meter ???

How much compulsion did you use ??? A meter is a joke. I haven't had a dog that couldn't do that high at an early age. Something went wrong, and now he is pussing out. Did he have a crash or something ??

Seriously, a meter is goof height.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Hey guys I just wanted to give you an update. It has been a while since I posted.That GSD is not only jumping well but retrieving the dumbbell like a pro...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey that's great! What did you end up doing different?


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Hey that's great! What did you end up doing different?


 
It's hard to say, I started training more in drive using a ball. I would stand on one side of the jump while my dog was in a down stay and just called him and then he would come full speed and jump over the jump to get the ball. We did that for a while keeping it fun. After much practice, we put the dumbbell back into the picture. 

I am glad he got it. My trainer said it was me, not the dog. I was putting too much pressure on the dog and he did not want to perform. 

Jeff was right, I used too much compulsion trying to force him to do it instead of keep him in drive.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The old "training in drive" trick!
Amazing how some folks never get this. 
If a dog has the proper drive for food or a toy the sky is the limit for what you can train it to do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff was right, I used too much compulsion trying to force him to do it instead of keep him in drive.

Jeff was right, but lets make sure that everyone knows WHY he was right, and that is because I have ****ed it up before, and ****ed it up well. LOL

Currently Buko is doing the sideways Malinois as he is doing the jump. He really thinks that this is some funny stuff, and of course he knocks down the jump.

Always good to have a dog that will go out of his way to make your eye sockets bleed.

I think he is gonna make some real interesting pups.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Always good to have a dog that will go out of his way to make your eye sockets bleed.


rofl :lol:


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