# Picking a pup.. Alpha male desirable?



## Ted White

I will be looking at a litter in 2 weeks. Looking at a male. I've read and seen video on pup selection. Very tricky. 

But... is there value in zeroing in on the alpha male? Is the alpha necessarily an indicator, or not relevant at all?

While I'm at it, the video from "LB" seems to have a great series of pup tests. Those that have seen it, do you like it, advocate it?


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## Bob Scott

Important for MY puppy selection. Bold, strong nerves, strong prey, strong retrieve instinct. 
I think the selection for most EXPIERIENCED people is is as much by instinct as anythig else. 
For an inexpierienced person, a good breeder can select based on your wants and needs. If you don't know/trust the breeder, take an expierienced person with you. 
I'm not interested in it's relationship with it's littermates.
Bottom line, IMHO, if the pup is raised correctly I don't think it's structure in the litter is any big deal.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

If you pick a puppy based on dominance over littermates, you are likely to end up with a more dominant and independant dog that is more difficult to train than a pup that likes to retrieve and keeps coming back to you when you push him away.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Have someone else that knows dogs real well go with you and give their opinion. All of what is said is subject to opinion, and difficult to decipher. Better to have someone go with, after all, what if they look at the litter and think they are junk???

Better than to waste the $$$$$


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## susan tuck

If you aren't experienced, you need to take someone who is. A lot of what you read about puppy testing is a load of hooie, most litters of puppies grow at different rates so the test you give one week can have radically different results the next, so look for a uniform litter. Someone who knows working dogs and bloodlines will be of great benefit to you.


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## Anne Vaini

Take someone experienced! I have watched many litter evaluations and done many evaluations on adults. I am often wrong. These mistakes are expensive at best, frustrating and heart breaking at worst.

For me, the first thing I want is a good "fit" between me and the dog. This comes first before any other specific quality.

I have one dog with oddles of drive. He is a poor fit for me - any form of training or handling ends in my frustration (his oblivion). 

I have another dog who is amazingly trainable with a clicker. She is a poor fit for me. She is extremely sensitive and shuts down easily. We have more bad, frustrating and unproductive training sessions than good. 

My puppy is a good fit for me. When I picked her, this was my first concern. I wanted the drives and abiliteis that I see in my other dogs, but in a dog that I can work with consistently.

To find this fit, I had to sort out what was important to me. Breed was first for a general temperament that suits my personality, choosing the breeder was easy - it is somebody I know well and who's dogs I know well. Then pedigree, litter and gender. I knew what breeding I wanted and I generally prefer females. Appearance was next. Because of the breed's appearance and image, I want a lighter colored dog with white markings on the face. 

That had me down to 2 pups. I wanted confident and calm in a new environment. I wanted high food and prey drives, preferring higher prey drive than food drive. I want a compliant, me-oriented dog. I was a dog that is in the middle of the pack structure.

These are the things that make a dog more easily trainable *for me*. I was surprised to see both pups were equal in all respects. So my final decision was made by conformation.

You must go will a skeptical mindset. Don't expect to buy a pup. If you don't see exactly what you are looking for, don't buy. I went out just to see, no intention of buying. I came home with a puppy. I called my husband and he asked how it went and I said, "Well...I don't know..." and he says "So that means you have a puppy in the car and you're coming home." :grin: Yup.

I want to take the puppy immediately after evaluating it. I took my pup at 6 wks. Part of this is because of the breed (APBT). When there is a pup with the beautiful temperament, the last thing I want is to have it stay in the litter too long and develop poor social habits. I want to take it away from the litter and put it in with older, neutral dogs. When I see a dog at 6 wks that is calm in new environments, that doesn't mean that when kenneled it will stay that way. Example: my pup started being socialized in every way at 6 wks. Her littermate that the breeder kept did not. At a conformation show today, my pup was confident and social, her littermate was nervy, even though it did not have a genetic tendency towards nervousness.

What I'm getting at is 
1) If you pick a phenomenal dog that drives you crazy, training and day-to-day handling become difficult and frustrating. How the dog "fits" you is important.
2) When you pick a dog, be sure that it will be in a sitution where it will not regress before you take it home - even if that means taking it home at 6 or 7 wks. (That topic is a discussion in itself...) 
3) Take someone experienced with you. It's not worth screwing up on this.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

So what you're saying is that you now own 2 dogs you don't like?!


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## Anne Vaini

Yeah. I guess you could say that. :lol: They have their good points - but their personalities drive me batty most days. They aren't "bad" dogs - they just aren't an ideal fit for me. They're here to stay anyhow. It's not their fault that I am frustrated by a few behaviors that they exhibit frequently.

But hey - what do you expect from rescue dogs with severe behavior problems? They've surpassed everyone's expectations. They're just hard *for me* to live with.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Thats what you get for getting mutts.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

So what happens if your pup doesn't "fit" either? Wouldn't it be a better idea for you to get an adult dog with a 2 week trial period or something so you can decide if you fit with the dog, rather than spending a year on raising a puppy and hoping he's what you were looking for?


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## Ted White

Thanks everyone for their comments. I have been dealing with this breeder for almost two years now. Mike Diehl in Indianapolis. The sire is Basco, Czech lines who was 2006 USA National Champion. Dam is similar bloodlines. Should be a good litter.

Mike Diehl is the experienced person I will be relying on. 

My questions was really centered around peoples opinions of the alpha male relative to long term work. The LB video was pretty clear that you want the alpha, but that's really only one guys opinion.


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## susan tuck

Well if that was the case there sure would be a shortage of working and sport dogs because there really are very few true alpha dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed

The alphas are the most confident, non aggresive, self assured dogs by far. I find them thye easiest to deal with, especially in what would normally be a high stress situation for a dog such as a field trial or an open event where there is a lot of comotion, people, and dogs. Nothing phases them. I find them the easiest to work with. Susan is right, I think in say there are not a lot of true alpha dogs around so don't mix them up thinking they show more aggressive tendencies.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I believe Ted is referring to the most dominant pup in a given litter, rather than a general temprement out of all litters.

With constantly changing pack dynamics in puppy litters I think it's hard to say "This pup is the alpha", because a week later another pup will have kicked his butt. I have also seen cases where the most dominant pup in that litter is not the most confident or environmentally stable pup, and the middle of the road pup turns out to be the most confident pup later.


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## Don Turnipseed

I have never found dominance to have anthing to do with picking what I would call the alpha. They are generally not aggressive. If you want to find them, you look for the pup the dominate one does not try to control. The dominate will show aggression to all the pups....except the one that will kick his but if he screws with them. That is the dog you want ....At least it is the one I want.


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## susan tuck

Me too, guys, Me too.


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## Anne Vaini

> Wouldn't it be a better idea for you to get an adult dog with a 2 week trial period or something so you can decide if you fit with the dog, rather than spending a year on raising a puppy and hoping he's what you were looking for?


A puppy that is out of this breed and bloodline, is trainable, confident and balanced will become a dog that fits me well because I can shape it's behavior.


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## Tim Martens

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have never found dominance to have anthing to do with picking what I would call the alpha. They are generally not aggressive. If you want to find them, you look for the pup the dominate one does not try to control. The dominate will show aggression to all the pups....except the one that will kick his but if he screws with them. That is the dog you want ....At least it is the one I want.


+1

dog dominance and dog/human dominance are not mutually inclusive. my first dog was the toughest son of a bitch with other dogs. one year at our annual water training seminar, we all muzzled up our dogs and let them "interact". my dog mounted every single dog there. but he was a pretty soft dog with people and was average (at best) in the bitework.


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## Ted White

That's a great anecdote Tim. Thanks


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## Don Turnipseed

"dog dominance and dog/human dominance are not mutually inclusive. "

I have no idea what this has to do with anything Tim.

"my first dog was the toughest son of a bitch with other dogs. one year at our annual water training seminar, we all muzzled up our dogs and let them "interact". my dog mounted every single dog there. but he was a pretty soft dog with people and was average (at best) in the bitework."

The original questoin had to do with alphas. A true alpha is not aggressive nor does it dominate at such a young age. The little guys that have to prove something show it through aggression. They also end up spending most of their life in the same mode because they are not the top dogs. If you watch enough litters, you will find that the very top dogs are very self confident and don't go around bullying the others, they don't have to.(They also get passed over because most people misread them) They are better and they show it. The so called dominate dogs will not try to prove he is dominate with a pup like this. He does his proving with dogs his equal or less than equal. They are just like people Tim. The top dogs sit quietly at the bar because they are the top dogs, the wanna be's make all the noise because they are trying to prove they are as good.


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## Tim Martens

Don Turnipseed said:


> "dog dominance and dog/human dominance are not mutually inclusive. "
> 
> I have no idea what this has to do with anything Tim.


you have no idea because the vernacular is over your head? i can dumb it down for you if you want. 




Don Turnipseed said:


> "my first dog was the toughest son of a bitch with other dogs. one year at our annual water training seminar, we all muzzled up our dogs and let them "interact". my dog mounted every single dog there. but he was a pretty soft dog with people and was average (at best) in the bitework."
> 
> The original questoin had to do with alphas. A true alpha is not aggressive nor does it dominate at such a young age. The little guys that have to prove something show it through aggression. They also end up spending most of their life in the same mode because they are not the top dogs. If you watch enough litters, you will find that the very top dogs are very self confident and don't go around bullying the others, they don't have to.(They also get passed over because most people misread them) They are better and they show it. The so called dominate dogs will not try to prove he is dominate with a pup like this. He does his proving with dogs his equal or less than equal. They are just like people Tim. The top dogs sit quietly at the bar because they are the top dogs, the wanna be's make all the noise because they are trying to prove they are as good.


so the dog who "doesn't have to prove anything" just sits quietly until challenged. and then what?


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## Don Turnipseed

Tim Martens said:


> you have no idea because the vernacular is over your head? i can dumb it down for you if you want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so the dog who "doesn't have to prove anything" just sits quietly until challenged. and then what?


Would appreciate the explanation Tim.....as soon as you are finished posturing that is.... Posturing....now that is something real alpha dogs never do.....that is the domain of the wanna be's.


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## Bob Scott

Ok folks! Lets all hold hands and sing. Kumbiyaaaaa!


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## Tim Martens

dog dominance and dog/human dominance are not mutually inclusive = just because a doggy is a bully to the other doggies, doesn't mean he will be a bully to people too donny.

still waiting for the answer to my question though..


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## Bob Scott

Lets knock off the little personal shots, now!
Look at my bi line or whatever the he(( it's called. 

"The words of a fool offend only another fool". 

EVERYBODY try and live that! 

Cheap shots over the net are just that and can't go anywhere productive.


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## Tim Martens

Bob Scott said:


> Lets knock off the little personal shots, now!
> Look at my bi line or whatever the he(( it's called.
> 
> "The words of a fool offend only another fool".
> 
> EVERYBODY try and live that!
> 
> Cheap shots over the net are just that and can't go anywhere productive.


the funny thing is that johnny appleseed is too dimwitted to realize that i was agreeing with him in my original post (+1 means you agree), but he carried a beef over from threads many weeks ago. oh well..


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## Don Turnipseed

All together now...Kumbiyaaaaa! Kumbiyaaaaa!, Kumbiyaaaaa!

The dogs you are referring to Tim, the ones that don't go around beating up other dogs or having to"continually" prove they can,....they don't have to do it because they know they can. It is the confidence. The bullies know it to and that is why they choose not to pick on certain pups. Alpha pups will take care of any problem with no posturing....they just do it even as pups.

As far as that explanation on the vernacular, WOW. So, the answer is a real alpha dogs may not be the perfect choice(since that was the question) but possibly a lesser dog as in your description...possibly a tad on the sharp side which seems to be what a lot find more desireable....from what I have read of course. Many people find this kind of dog more intimidating would be my guess and for sport work, may put on a better show(for points) but not so really serious. 

Kumbiyaaaaa! Kumbiyaaaaa!


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## Anne Vaini

The only thing about a pup's dominance or submissivenes that I find relavent to choosing a competitive dog for sport was shown in a study done in 1967 by Scott and McCray. They found that the puppies in the most submissive group decline to try as hard to win a reward in a competitive setting, but perform best in a non-competitive setting. This isn't to say that the most submissive dogs CANNOT become competitive dogs, but that the handler would need to recognize this and work with the dog to realize its potential.

The pack order of the domestic dog pups is fluid, loosely organized and rather insignificant until they are 11 weeks old. But wolf pups aggressively establish social dominance as young as 30 days and maintain stable pack order afterwards.

There plenty of studies indicating that puppy evaluations for miliatry working dog prospects and for guide-dog prospects are invalid. Only extremes were observed and then only by experienced evaluators. Puppy picking is risky business.


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## Bob Scott

Lets keep it from turning into a perfect example of the corporate video Mike posted, NOW! 
No last word except from a mod, period!


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## Don Turnipseed

Anne, I find my pups are pretty well established by about 6 weeks. They are raised more as a pack though where the pups are pretty much welcome in any of the 5 yards which, right now have 22 dogs ...which are divided up according to the alpha males. This picture has some 6 week old pups in with two, intact males(the alpha, Odin, is in front and is 97lbs. These pups do not belong to either of these males The pups are raised by both parents and, usually, several other females. Keeping this many terriers in close quarters means you better understand the hierarchy. While the alphas keep the yards in order, I can't say they are ideal as protection dogs because they tend to not play games. When there is serious buisiness to be taken care of, it is meted out fast and with no fanfare. Other than that, they are the most sociable of the bunch. The big problem is you keep them well away from each other. All inside fences are double strand and electified with a 4" neutral zone to keep them backed away from the fences. The pups can horn in when they are at the feeders and they will just wait for the pups to eat.


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## Chris Duhon

I look for Bob Scott's stated type of traits, now if it fits those traits and ALSO is the dominant one in the litter, that more than likely will be mine. Because he is demonstrating a dominant trait so early, it is hopeful that later on that will continue to be his position when doing man work. But the desirable traits for the work are foremost. Dominance in the litter I look at like color, after all else is satisfied it's a great plus.

~CHRIS DUHON


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## Anne Vaini

That's a neat setup. When I've watched litters of pups, they start sorting themselves out about 4 weeks. There are sortof 3 -4 bickering at the top, and one that is submissive-inhibited. I know those uber-alphas exist, but I haven't seen it in a litter (yet).

In a setup like yours with yards, fighting dog problems are solved by adding a dominant dog into the mix. I've heard most about this from greyhound people, since these are the only dog people I know of that keep dogs together in groups.



> Keeping this many terriers in close quarters means you better understand the hierarchy. While the alphas keep the yards in order, I can't say they are ideal as protection dogs because they tend to not play games. When there is serious buisiness to be taken care of, it is meted out fast and with no fanfare. Other than that, they are the most sociable of the bunch. The big problem is you keep them well away from each other.


You got that right! I have a dog that is super submissive with people. He never had an issue with other dogs - appearing completely oblivious to the matters of pack order which my girls took VERY seriously. He's not a thinking dog so I assumed he was a stupid, oblivious dog. ummm... oops. I found out the hard way that he is my alpha. He's tolerant, doesn't pick fights, but if I see him posturing, dang, I better get out there fast because he's about to snap and mean business. There is only one dog I can put him out in a yard with.

By attending to social order, I have been able to keep groups of females with aggression issues. But one time I had 2 alphas at the same time. Quite stressful. Thankfully, no injuries.


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## Ted White

What Bob Scott stated types of traits?


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## Bob Scott

Ted White said:


> What Bob Scott stated types of traits?


Page one, post 2 of this particular discussion.
When I chose my first GSD, Thunder, he wasn't the biggest or baddest of the litter. 
I liked his boldness with people and outside exposure. Nothing seemed to rattle him. He loved chasing ANYTHING that moved and was naturally inclined to bring back anything thrown. 
I followed this litter from 3 to 6 wks. Checked them out 2-3 times a week. 
Looking for a WORKING dog, the selection came down, equally, to a small bi-colored female and the sable male. 
All thing being equal, I chose based on color. :roll: :-D :-D


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## Ted White

Very interesting! These thoughts from everyone are really, really appreciated. You folks are so knowledgeable about the nuances of all of this. Thank you all so much.

Obviously I'll rely heavily on the breeder, since he's accomplished in the training and breeding in addition to working canine with SWAT for years.

As far as my original question goes, it seems clear that with respect to the interraction with the littermates, it is only really relevant that the pup not be on the bottom half of the group in submissiveness. 

Other than that it's nerves, being rattled easily and desire to interact with me. So little tests along those lines are meaningful.

Does anyone do the pup pinch test? The "forgiveness" test that LB talks about? I haven't heard anyone talk about that. Seems reasonable in the video, but again, that's one guy's opinion.

Thank you all very much


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## Bob Scott

I've done the pinch test. I understand the concept to see how forgiving the pup is but the willingness to retrieve is the big one for me in seeing how compliant the dog is with people. 
And NO to all the folks that use the pinch test to see how much pressure it can take. IT'S A FRIGGIN PUPPY! :roll: The boldness and strong nerves will tell me a lot about handling pressure.


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## Ted White

What do you do for nerve tests / boldness?


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## Don Turnipseed

This is one reason I don't handle the pups until they are on their feet and coming out of the whelping box to explore their new world. It makes it immensley easier to judge nerve, confidence and independence. If they don't have enough confidence, they are in the group that won't come to you until they see the first ones didn't get eaten. If they have no nerve they cut and run upon your approach of the ones with less confidence. Once they have been conditioned to handling and their environment, it is dependent on various testing methods and nothing is set in stone.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

OK so how do you clean the whelping box??


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## Don Turnipseed

What do you mean...keep the whelping box clean????

Just kidding. Mom keeps it in pretty good shape. I will pull a good part of the shavings once or twice and put new ones in. They are starting to come out about 3 weeks and are eating dry kibble at 3 1/2 weeks so much of the mess in the box is alleviated Mike. I haven't had a litter in the house in about 18 years. 

Had a bad case of parvo a few months back because I took two dogs in to be clipped for a friend. One had parvo and I had 16 pups from 5 to 7 weeks on the ground. One had shots. Lost 5 of the 16 and they all had it. Just made sure they had fresh water and sprayed the pens down with bleach once a day. Got lots of advice on hydrating and such. I just made sure they had fresh water. Must have been a different strain because parvo normally doesn't bother them enough to quit playing even. 

Actually, I never bring them in the house unless someone is there to look at them. I always bring two of ifferent levels in so they can see how differently they react to a new environment, slick floors and such, I them teach them to sit while they watch. Takes about 3 minute....maybe 4. After about thirty minutes I will tell them to sit again with no prompting just so they know it isn't a fluke. Then, as subtly as I know how, I tell them if they can't train that dog, it is them and not the dog. I figure it is easier to show most people how easy something is that to try and tell them.


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## Bob Scott

Ted White said:


> What do you do for nerve tests / boldness?


Observe reactions to stimulation (noise, hands waiving, anything you think of). 
Ideally these should be done in a new place the pups aren't familiar with.
A pup that shows supprise and avoidance of the stimualtion is done!
suprise and quick recover isn't to bad but something I probably pass on. I like a pup that comes running when you drop a pan, or lay on the ground waiving your arms and legs, roll something across the ground, etc.
If ANY pup in a given litter shows avoidance, that's also a red light for the whole litter unless I know and understand the how and why that pup responded that way.
This is for GSDs. I've seen Mal pups that showed a lot of nervousness but were still supposedly good dogs. Someone more familiar with Mals could/should comment on this.
Don,
I agree about showing instead of trying to explain. I've always said the biggest problem a young dog has is the turd stuck to the handle end of the leash. :wink:


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## Ted White

Thanks Bob. That's what I figured you were looking for in nerves


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nerve tests are easy. Run up and kick the little bastard, if he hits the ground running back at you, he is a keeper.


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Nerve tests are easy. Run up and kick the little bastard, if he hits the ground running back at you, he is a keeper.


Only with tennis shoes. After all, we're talking about puppys!


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## Konnie Hein

Bob Scott said:


> This is for GSDs. I've seen Mal pups that showed a lot of nervousness but were still supposedly good dogs. Someone more familiar with Mals could/should comment on this.


If the Malinois pup does leg bites on your decoy at 8 weeks of age, he's a good one! :grin:


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## Anne Vaini

Konnie - I had to look at that pic for a long time. I was thinking - a docked Mal? Is that a dobe/mal mix. :???: I found the tail and figured it out. :grin:

Testing nerves - I want to see two things.

1) I want to bring the puppy into a place it has never been before, with footing it has never been on. I want to see it showing prey drive in this new environment.

I don't want to see the pups that "warms up quickly." It's too questionable on whether or not the pup's nerves are going to improve or decline as the pup matures. I've seen it go both ways on pups that have appeared the same at 8 wks.

One reaction that IME _so far_, seems to be OK (but not preferable) is a pup who is definitely scared, but when shown a rag or tug will overcome the fear through drive. The pups I've seen this weay turned out to be nice dogs. However, this trait was specific to one situation and was seen in the stud. It did not affect the stud's working abilities. Has anyone else seen this? Your thoughts on it?

2) I want to test recovery to a loud noise distraction. I'll drop something loud and bangy a couple feet away from the puppy while the puppy is facing the other way and sniffing or otherwise occupied. I want the dog to either startle or become alert and then eagerly investigate the source of the noise. I am more concerned with the recovery than with the immediate startle.

Nerves is one of those things that can be hard to see. The first pup I picked that died from health problems was in the "slow to warm up" category, but it was soo slight I didn't think anything of it. Big mistake. She would not have been a good dog. The second pup was SOO similar that I can hardly describe the differences, but I wouldn't put her in the "slow to warm up" category. We're talking tiny nuances. She's still a baby, but already we can see her nerves are infinitely better than the first pup.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I liked a pup in the litter I was picking from, he walked the other way from a pressure washer (loud, gas powered), not scared or startled, I just didn't like that he walked away so I passed. I saw some pups take some getting used to tile floors, they all dealt with it, some just had more aversion to it than others. The 2 pups I picked ran up to the pressure washer and had a "floor? what floor?" reaction when sliding over it to chase a ball 

I also liked that when I roughly pushed them away from me they kept coming back, n if I tugged at their fur I felt teeth immediately. Ofcourse now when Tiko makes a mess in his crate n I'm avoiding poopy paws jumping up at me, I have a real hard time getting him to go away because the harder I push him away the more intently he tries to jump at me :lol:


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## Ted White

good examples and fun stories! Some obvious things and some very subtle when first interracting with he pups.

Had a GSD pup once from a non-working litter. This was 10 years ago. Dog seemed OK with he noise test. Then an oder dog came outside the fence and this pup stood right up and barked. I thought that was great, and took that one. Turns out he was a nervous dog, growled at kids and other dogs. 

Gave him away 8 months later. In retrospect he should have behaved more neutral. The aggressiveness I liked toward that other dog was actually nervousness.


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## Pauline Michels

Konnie and Anne....I almost posted the big question: What kind of dog is that? I too finally found the tail.


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## Bryan Colletti

*Increasing the odds*

I would never buy a puppy without first knowing what my goals are, Sport, service, Police or pet. Then what sex I prefer, or if it doesn't matter. Then, be honest with my expertise in selecting what I need.

The third is the most important actually, because you can not do anything without the knowledge of bloodlines and how to evaluate pups.

So, let's assume you can not find a expert or someone more knowledgable than you to pick a pup. You still need to find quality genetics and quality breeders to look at.

Once you have those things in check, now proceed with the criteria to which your goals rest on. If it is sport work, depending on the sport you interested in, bloodlines and temperament are very important. If it Police Work or service, then selection of the pup is a little different. I won't place as much importance on puppy grip. I take nerves and confidence over that anyday. I like an alpha dog, but not a bully. It's the hardest thing to see in a litter. You must know them intimately. Because bullies will always appear dominant and in charge. But, the clear headed, calm and cool leader, is not as animated with his alpha qualities. He/She almost always has a long fuse, which I love.

Now if Sex of the pup is important to you: There is no reason to look at the other sex except for comparative purposes. Though, it is my experience that females always show more life at a younger age then males do. So really try isolating the sexes and work exclusively with the one you choose to have. Less confusion looking at three pups, then eight. 

I prefer and ask breeders not to feed the pups when I am coming. Food to a puppy is a great indicator of pack rank, enviromental confidence, focus on task, and hunting skills. When they are overfed, they are tired and flat when you see them.

I will bring big raw bones with lots of meat on them, and let the pups have at them. You see alot of real character this way. After a while, I remove the pups one by one, and then the bones. I will put tiny peices of meat down now, bring the pups back and watch them hunt. These are all natural behaviors. Now you can start to see who is more concerned with wasteful play, or bickering, fighting. Or better, who will remain hunting even after all the food is found. The pups that will hunt and not be coaxed into play or fighting with the others, are very high on my list. It shows me focused under pressure and stress, competitiveness, heart and desire. You even see real fight drive at a young age. Of course, not directed to a man, but purportionately directed fight drive towards a littermate. 

It may sound controversial, but you can fight drive and courage at four or five weeks old, it is simply not directed in areas you are accustomed to seeing. It is in the most basic of Natural settings.

If you REALLY look at the puppies with all your senses, they will tell you who they are

BE AT PEACE,
Bryan 

www.K9CS.org


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## Ted White

*Re: Increasing the odds*

Very nice write-up Bryan. Thanks for that. Good point about separating the males and females right away if you know you are going for one or the other. Someone else mentioned the advanced state of females at that age. So it's good to factor that in.


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## Amanda Layne

I will just throw this out there because I dont have a whole lot of experience in this area...

I have always heard that consistancy amongst a litter is important. I also like the idea of taking away the sex that you will not be choosing from. 

My current puppy I literally flipped a coin for. There were only two females and they were both very consistent temperment wise. One was a little "louder" and had just a slight bit of "edge" I would say. This is the one I wound up with. I honestly would have been happy with either one though. I drove up to New Jersey at least once a week (from the time the litter was 3 days old) to watch them. Over the weeks I would say that there were things that I really liked about both puppies. It seemed one would jump ahead one week and that would be THE ONE, but the next week the other would display traits that I liked better. In the end....like I said....I literally flipped a coin. I couldnt decide, they were both nice. I am happy with what I wound up with 

Good Luck


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## Ted White

Obviously some great value in visiting the litter at least weekly. So much changes so quickly.


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## Lyn Chen

What do you guys think of reaction? Pup sniffs around, gets close to TV that makes a loud noise, pup jumps away from speakers but acts nonchalant .5 seconds later, as if nothing happened and starts playing (even lies down and stretches out). Could this be avoidance? Would you have preferred no reaction at all, or he return to check on what it was that startled him?


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## Bob Scott

Sounds like a nice pup to me!


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