# Bouviers in KNPV for the working bouvier enthusiasts if it piques their curiosity !



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

http://www.bouvierindeknpv.nl/ -- This is for anybody interested in the Knpv bouviers . What little information about the KNPV bouvier goes is here . Some of the working bouvier enthusiasts in general may be interested to browse this website . It's in English as well as in Dutch language .


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you!


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

is there a malinois version thats also in english??


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> is there a malinois version thats also in english??


 Well , fora malinois that is a popular and proven breed , you have a lot of people to help you in English .

So you do not need an Engliah version and besides a lot of malinois sites are in English , as you very well know .

But alas , the bouviers that can work or may be get the job done are far very few , a dedicated individual and ardent devotee of the breed put up a site like this . So you will have to forgive him for making this humble attempt and my puny attempt for posting this . Pleae forgive the underdog that I am for posting this site . I am sure you will tolerate my idiosyncrasies as you are tolerant and very considerate . 

Regards,
Lalit


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Former Bouvier owner, son of Bill v.d. Barbierhoeve...
Keep the Big Bouv Information Coming


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

I agree with Howard. Keep the information coming on these Bouviers! It is great that you are sharing the information. Too many people have only seen show line Bouviers and dismiss them as working dogs.

all the best,
Carolyn



Howard Gaines III said:


> Former Bouvier owner, son of Bill v.d. Barbierhoeve...
> Keep the Big Bouv Information Coming


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Carolyn Herle said:


> I agree with Howard. Keep the information coming on these Bouviers! It is great that you are sharing the information. Too many people have only seen show line Bouviers and dismiss them as working dogs.
> 
> all the best,
> Carolyn


Hello Carolyn,
How's Alkemi doing ? And Ben, mustn't forget to ask about Ben . Do you have a protection or bitework video of Ben . What's ben turned out be , more like Alkemi or Whiskey ?

Regards,
Lalit


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Former Bouvier owner, son of Bill v.d. Barbierhoeve...
> Keep the Big Bouv Information Coming


 Hello Howard,
Have seen your dog on your website . I see that you have GSDs now . Thanks for your comment . I guess, you always will like bouviers .
Lalit


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Hello Lalit,

I appreciate your enthusiasm about the traditional old type working Bouvier and enjoy your postings. 

I just saw your other post on the Schnauzers though and now you have me worried...


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi Lalit,
We had a rough go with the pups and only ended up with two. Alkemi is fine and that is always a huge relief!
I don't have any recent video of Ben. We put him on the bite jacket for the first time a couple of weeks ago to let him finally use his aggression. His IPO training was always so calm as our TD didn't want another Alkemi. He does have Alkemi's aggression but in a more contained package. I think that comes from Whiskey. Ben is very eager to please and driven to work.

Best regards,
Carolyn





Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Carolyn,
> How's Alkemi doing ? And Ben, mustn't forget to ask about Ben . Do you have a protection or bitework video of Ben . What's ben turned out be , more like Alkemi or Whiskey ?
> 
> Regards,
> Lalit


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Angelo Berios said:


> Hello Lalit,
> 
> I appreciate your enthusiasm about the traditional old type working Bouvier and enjoy your postings.
> 
> I just saw your other post on the Schnauzers though and now you have me worried...


Hello Angelo ,
Have you worried , in what way did I worry you . Well it looks like I should stop posting then , as I do not want anyone worried or come to misconclusions .

Reason I posted _-was always interested in Breeds like Rottweilers Bouviers and Riesenschnauzers . 

If this is raising concerns as a good member I should refrain from such deeds .
Rest assured , you don't have to worry anymore . 

Regards,
Lalit


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Angelo ,
> Have you worried , in what way did I worry you . Well it looks like I should stop posting then , as I do not want anyone worried or come to misconclusions .
> 
> Reason I posted _-was always interested in Breeds like Rottweilers Bouviers and Riesenschnauzers .
> ...


nah...you are fine Lalit, thanks for sharing these interesting things with us.


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Angelo ,
> Have you worried , in what way did I worry you . Well it looks like I should stop posting then , as I do not want anyone worried or come to misconclusions .
> 
> Reason I posted _-was always interested in Breeds like Rottweilers Bouviers and Riesenschnauzers .
> ...


Hi Lalit,

I was just joking, since from what I remember you have a Bouvier. By all means, you are free to post whatever you wish and whenever you want. It is great to see people excited about all working dogs but even greater about Bouviers...  So please keep posting! I would have never watched those Schnauzer videos simply because I would not be searching for them.

Just to make you feel better here is a pic of a relative to your dog (picture blurry as it is a screenshot of a lower resolution video). Bella-Coco Action Dax vd Fokrohof, 13 months old 3d time on the field protection this January:






(I hope that I attached the picture - not sure if the size was appropriate).


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Carolyn Herle said:


> Hi Lalit,
> We had a rough go with the pups and only ended up with two. Alkemi is fine and that is always a huge relief!
> I don't have any recent video of Ben. We put him on the bite jacket for the first time a couple of weeks ago to let him finally use his aggression. His IPO training was always so calm as our TD didn't want another Alkemi. He does have Alkemi's aggression but in a more contained package. I think that comes from Whiskey. Ben is very eager to please and driven to work.
> 
> ...


 Hello Carolyn,
Sorry to hear about that . However you have at least two puppies . They may turn out to be good . You were thinking of keeping a female from ths litter . 

Lalit


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> nah...you are fine Lalit, thanks for sharing these interesting things with us.


 Thank you Joby !
Lalit


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Angelo Berios said:


> Hi Lalit,
> 
> I was just joking, since from what I remember you have a Bouvier. By all means, you are free to post whatever you wish and whenever you want. It is great to see people excited about all working dogs but even greater about Bouviers...  So please keep posting! I would have never watched those Schnauzer videos simply because I would not be searching for them.
> 
> ...


Riesenschnauzers always interested me from a long time . However , I could not find a good one right on time , and then I have a bouvier from Fokke .cowboy/dax. I am happy with him .
He's from the A litter .
Just like Mali/Dutchie crosses which are very good , I had a dessire to cross good bouviers with good schnauzers , as they won't have pedigrees , most breed fanciers will not be interested to do that and cab't be registered on FCI . But me , I have an intuition that one get some good dogs out of that , provided two good dogs are used . I may be wrong there , but it's certainly worth a try .
What's your take on that schnauzer/bouvier combination ? Of course , both the sire and dam should be good .
Regards,
Lalit


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Carolyn Herle said:


> Hi Lalit,
> We had a rough go with the pups and only ended up with two. Alkemi is fine and that is always a huge relief!
> I don't have any recent video of Ben. We put him on the bite jacket for the first time a couple of weeks ago to let him finally use his aggression. His IPO training was always so calm as our TD didn't want another Alkemi. He does have Alkemi's aggression but in a more contained package. I think that comes from Whiskey. Ben is very eager to please and driven to work.


Hi Carolyn, I meant to get in touch but I thought you would have your hands full. I am sorry to hear about the difficulty with the litter but I am glad that Alkemi is doing well. I like that Alkemi aggression although it results in bruises from time to time...  

Sounds that Ben is the full package. Contained can be very good, especially in a male from your lines.


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Riesenschnauzers always interested me from a long time . However , I could not find a good one right on time , and then I have a bouvier from Fokke .cowboy/dax. I am happy with him .
> He's from the A litter .
> Just like Mali/Dutchie crosses which are very good , I had a dessire to cross good bouviers with good schnauzers , as they won't have pedigrees , most breed fanciers will not be interested to do that and cab't be registered on FCI . But me , I have an intuition that one get some good dogs out of that , provided two good dogs are used . I may be wrong there , but it's certainly worth a try .
> What's your take on that schnauzer/bouvier combination ? Of course , both the sire and dam should be good .
> ...


Great to hear about your Bouvier. Bella(Coco) is from the 3d breeding of the same combination and a sister to your male. 

Your other question is probably a long discussion, and although it sort of surprised me, I will put down some quick thoughts. (I am partial to Bouviers for many reasons, but I have owned KNPV dogs and Mal-Duchie crosses and there is always a lot of discussion here on such dogs, since probably the majority of KNPV dogs, are X(something). So I guess I understand the "where you got the idea" part). If you were talking about a Bouvier from a different lines(and I am still not sure why), I could see why you would consider such a thing. I am not sure what you see in the RS that you do not see in Fokke's and Carolyn's Bouviers. The drives are extreme and the rest is training so you can get the outcome you want. The few RS I have seen are sort of nervy to begin with, so you may end up potentially with "hairy XMal extreme drives" on larger yet agile dogs that (other things constant assuming that they are stable and all other physical characteristics work), would be possibly a challenge to handle. Dogs like Alkemi and Bella have plenty of drive for me for any task and they have all the extreme drives of the X KNPV dogs in a large and agile package and they test you continuously... (Possibly more thoughts to follow later...  )


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Angelo Berios said:


> Great to hear about your Bouvier. Bella(Coco) is from the 3d breeding of the same combination and a sister to your male.
> 
> Your other question is probably a long discussion, and although it sort of surprised me, I will put down some quick thoughts. (I am partial to Bouviers for many reasons, but I have owned KNPV dogs and Mal-Duchie crosses and there is always a lot of discussion here on such dogs, since probably the majority of KNPV dogs, are X(something). So I guess I understand the "where you got the idea" part). If you were talking about a Bouvier from a different lines(and I am still not sure why), I could see why you would consider such a thing. I am not sure what you see in the RS that you do not see in Fokke's and Carolyn's Bouviers. The drives are extreme and the rest is training so you can get the outcome you want. The few RS I have seen are sort of nervy to begin with, so you may end up potentially with "hairy XMal extreme drives" on larger yet agile dogs that (other things constant assuming that they are stable and all other physical characteristics work), would be possibly a challenge to handle. Dogs like Alkemi and Bella have plenty of drive for me for any task and they have all the extreme drives of the X KNPV dogs in a large and agile package and they test you continuously... (Possibly more thoughts to follow later...  )


 Ok , here's what I thought . my other colleagues have Malis here and xmalis from Belgium and places like philipines . some of them are X malis . I like bouviers too , no denial there . However , on the same coin , there are some good or excellent riesenschnauzers around . In the USA , Armin winkler has some , even though he doesn't sell them to everybody . I do not see anything wrong with Fokke's bouviers and I have great respect for what he has done with bouviers . he is my good friend and will always remain so .
If xmalis are good , when a good combination is made , then why not a good combination of Riesenschnauzer/Bouvier . Surely there are some good ones out there . Not all Riesenschnauzers are nervy . We wll be able to widen the genepool and get a similar looking phenotype as well . Like I said before , I may be wrong here and you may be right as you have seen several Xmals and some Riesenschnauzers . Hatzbachtal kennel along with Elberfeld produced some good dogs . Of course , occasionally you might end up with a dog like nitro who I believe has social aggression . not nervy , not a low threshold for defense, but an inborn motivation 

. I have communicated with his owner who is a police dog handler in Germany . He is very happy with his Nitro , but, very extra vigiant . I do not have to be right and may as well be wrong . 

Regards,
Lalit


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Good discussion, I have Bouv, but like RS too. In about 8 years cross the Bouv and RS, and I maybe buy one from you.


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Ok , here's what I thought . my other colleagues have Malis here and xmalis from Belgium and places like philipines . some of them are X malis . I like bouviers too , no denial there . However , on the same coin , there are some good or excellent riesenschnauzers around . In the USA , Armin winkler has some , even though he doesn't sell them to everybody . I do not see anything wrong with Fokke's bouviers and I have great respect for what he has done with bouviers . he is my good friend and will always remain so .
> If xmalis are good , when a good combination is made , then why not a good combination of Riesenschnauzer/Bouvier . Surely there are some good ones out there . Not all Riesenschnauzers are nervy . We wll be able to widen the genepool and get a similar looking phenotype as well . Like I said before , I may be wrong here and you may be right as you have seen several Xmals and some Riesenschnauzers . Hatzbachtal kennel along with Elberfeld produced some good dogs . Of course , occasionally you might end up with a dog like nitro who I believe has social aggression . not nervy , not a low threshold for defense, but an inborn motivation
> 
> . I have communicated with his owner who is a police dog handler in Germany . He is very happy with his Nitro , but, very extra vigiant . I do not have to be right and may as well be wrong .
> ...


Lalit, it took sometime to get back on this. Due to time limitations and the weakness of the argument, I almost let it go. Since you are a fellow Bouvier owner though, I feel it is important to put down a few points.

Again, I am not sure what you think the current Bouvier lines are missing. (Past the "widening the gene pool part", it sounds like an experiment idea) Most Bouviers from the lines we are discussing, possess the non-stop fight that you saw in the RS videos n abundance and with a lot more power. As much fun as it was to watch the bitework with the RS(and mind you I like the RS breed as well), there was one hit that I found impressive. Chico, my old Assenrade male (titled with his PH1 by his 3d year), used to hit like that every time. Every bite came with sound effects and bruises. Unfortunately I don't have any footage from him to post. I have his trial somewhere in a VHS but cannot find that either at the moment. Everyone of Chico's hits you could hear it like the sound effects in the movies. By the way he used his head to hit as well, and not always bite in situations outside the field. My current male, from the same lines almost identical looking, gives everything he has in every session - with a lot of power. Bella, my young female from Dax and Cowboy has energy and power to spare that you see in those X KNPV mals (the energy of Alkemi and the continuous fight of Dax).

I think that the Bouvier needs working homes and dog owners in LE and in the various dog sports rather than crossbreeding. There are plenty of working Bouviers bred by the remaining breeders. However, most people that take them don't train them to their potential, and\or do not show them. Also, we hardly videotape or post those videos online. There are some excellent dogs used as guard dogs that go by the waste-side, which they are never given a chance for breeding potential.

This is a courageous breed. I have never seen a Bouvier from Fokke's or Rini's (Dalhuisen - Assenrade), that did not open the chest and gave everything it had on the field. Unfortunately there haven't been as many in the trials and seminars, to be videotaped so people can see the real deal. 

Fokke has produced very good high drive dogs. I wish some of them went to active trainers and sport people that could make something out of them. In addition once in a while you need someone with a video camera.  Imagine Arbeau's leaps but with a lot more power. Bruises in every hit on the suit. Actually I have been observing Arbeau showing more and more power on his hits rather than to float airborne and get the bite from his young-days-videos. My female was floating long and high in her leaps for the bites(just like Arbeau), but progressively she is putting a lot more power behind them. My current Assenrade male is a lot calmer than my female, but the real working package, extremely tough and powerful dog.

In my view, you could contribute a lot to working dogs and the breed, by training these dogs to their full potential, titling, competing and showing, because many great Bouviers are never titled and never bred etc. While the working Bouvier may approach endangered status, there are still many around from the labors of several breeders in Holland, Belgium, France and North America that keep it going. They breed their studs-females when needed in the last few decades, to maintain the old style working Bouvier. I am talking in particular about KNPV line dogs from Fokke, Caroline and Rini as well as a few of European breeders that started with Assenrade foundations . There are certainly others with slightly different looking and acting lines, still working Bouvs, but what I would consider more IPO lines. A bit different lines of dogs in both appearance and drives... 

I am sure you have some sort of concrete objective to be contemplating something like this. Therefore I would suggest you study closely the breed and the existing lines and dogs, and their capabilities in the field and as breeding stock before starting to cross breed. Study pedigrees and learn about the particular dogs. The resources are in your fingertips and you are connected with the right people. I doubt you would have ever to look again outside this breed, but even if you decide to go forward with your experiment (It seems to me that you are trying to take shortcuts to produce a certain dog, which you may already have available and may not know it), at least you will know a lot more about one of the bravest breeds alive today. With your line of work, you have a chance to do a lot for the breed.

In closing, I consider myself very lucky to have the dogs that I have at the moment... Maybe I was lucky, right puppy choice etc., but I can tell you that my female can go head to head with any of the Mals and X dogs of your colleagues, in terms of drives, energy athletic build, trainability etc.... 

Regards.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Lalit
... interesting idea

what does the RS have that the Bouv is lacking (and vice versa) that you will bring together to make a better cross bred dog ?

i'm no breeder of course but shouldn't this always be considered when crossing any breeds ?

i also have no idea about the genetic health and longevity of each, but is this also part of your consideration ?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Angelo Berios said:


> Maybe I was lucky, right puppy choice etc., but I can tell you that my female can go head to head with any of the Mals and X dogs of your colleagues, in terms of drives, energy athletic build, trainability etc....
> 
> Regards.


That was an insightful post. You have my interest and attention by the things you have stated. I may have missed them and if I did I apologize in advance but do you have any available video of your female? Also, if you don't mind me asking where are you located?


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Angelo,
First off , Appreciate you taking the time to write this informative post , even though you do not agree with me and probably felt my idea is not founded on valid experience . If you have felt that I am speaking out of lack of appreciation of bouviers , that is not so .
In my previous posts , I had not written anywhere that I found my bouvier to be lacking in anything or was disatisfied , or I do not think X mali breeders thought that mali was lacking . They just tried to produce a better dog . 

To start with , I have to agree that you have a lot more experience with Bouviers and dogs in general . I am a breed fancier , and unfortunately, not just confined to one . The reason I wanted to mix the RS in there , was to have some size , power and some other qualities . I understand that you do not feel so and I respect your opinion . My opinion is just mine and others do not need to agree . 

All I said that it is certainly worth a try to mix and a get a good dog without a pedigree . As pedigree doesn't matter to me if a dog works with a bouvier kind of look and bring in something new to the genepool .

And I took the idea from the example X mali breeders as they were able to produce a phenotypically similar looking dogs by crossing malis/Dutchies etc or Xshepherds . And it is most of these dogs that are working in most LE . And I feel that In the Netherlands , police trainers as knowledgeable that they are , would not care about what the breed is , if they feel the dog is good and the price is right . If they do have a problem with the coat maintenance issue that is another thing . I wouldn't know about that .

And you may be right there , it's speculation and and experiment . However , I feel that there are not very many excellent working lines in the Bouvier Genepool except maybe Fokke and a couple of others in the Netherlands .Now I don't want offend any other Bouvier line owners by making these statements . Usually , i prefer to write these kind of posts more privately as they will stir up strong personal feelings . 

As you have seen more bouviers than me , I cannot argue with you that I know better . All I wanted to say was , it is worth a try to see breed a good bouvier with a good schnauzer . Both these breeds even though somewhat similar looking are different kind of dogs and good in their own ways . I do not want to discuss as what particular qualities are different on a public forum and I feel it would be a good blend to compliment two good dogs . Like I said before , I may not be correct and you may be right . 

Regards,
Lalit



Angelo Berios said:


> Lalit, it took sometime to get back on this. Due to time limitations and the weakness of the argument, I almost let it go. Since you are a fellow Bouvier owner though, I feel it is important to put down a few points.
> 
> Again, I am not sure what you think the current Bouvier lines are missing. (Past the "widening the gene pool part", it sounds like an experiment idea) Most Bouviers from the lines we are discussing, possess the non-stop fight that you saw in the RS videos n abundance and with a lot more power. As much fun as it was to watch the bitework with the RS(and mind you I like the RS breed as well), there was one hit that I found impressive. Chico, my old Assenrade male (titled with his PH1 by his 3d year), used to hit like that every time. Every bite came with sound effects and bruises. Unfortunately I don't have any footage from him to post. I have his trial somewhere in a VHS but cannot find that either at the moment. Everyone of Chico's hits you could hear it like the sound effects in the movies. By the way he used his head to hit as well, and not always bite in situations outside the field. My current male, from the same lines almost identical looking, gives everything he has in every session - with a lot of power. Bella, my young female from Dax and Cowboy has energy and power to spare that you see in those X KNPV mals (the energy of Alkemi and the continuous fight of Dax).
> 
> ...


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Rick,
Both breeds are healthy if selected from the right lines . They have their differences in temperamnt may be , with the RS sometimes being more dominant, grudge-holding and some other qualities like olfactory abilities and some other things I do not want to discuss . This is not to say that there are not dominant bouviers . 

The Bouvier is also a a very good dog in courage and fight . You can consider it an experimental breeding worth a try in my opinion only . As I had an idea , Mixing good represenatives fro these two breeds will bring power and complements . Hope , I am not makiing the impression of being over-enthusiastic here . :-D
Regards,
Lalit



rick smith said:


> Lalit
> ... interesting idea
> 
> what does the RS have that the Bouv is lacking (and vice versa) that you will bring together to make a better cross bred dog ?
> ...


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Also want to add that some(LE) may feel that a bouvier or schnauzer make take longer to train . I do not have a problem with the time taken as I have that advantage . 
Lalit



Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Angelo,
> First off , Appreciate you taking the time to write this informative post , even though you do not agree with me and probably felt my idea is not founded on valid experience . If you have felt that I am speaking out of lack of appreciation of bouviers , that is not so .
> In my previous posts , I had not written anywhere that I found my bouvier to be lacking in anything or was disatisfied , or I do not think X mali breeders thought that mali was lacking . They just tried to produce a better dog .
> 
> ...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Howard,
> Have seen your dog on your website . I see that you have GSDs now . Thanks for your comment . I guess, you always will like bouviers .
> Lalit


 That I will!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Also want to add that some(LE) may feel that a bouvier or schnauzer make take longer to train . I do not have a problem with the time taken as I have that advantage .
> Lalit


The only reason they may take longer to train is the maturity levels.
The GSN is lighter framed, newer versions of the BdF have more coat. The old world style of the BdF has many of the "looks" of the GSN. Crossing has been done before, like the Mal and GSD...what a waste of pure genetics. 

Keep them as pure as possible but pick the traits that improve all breeds.


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Nicole Stark said:


> That was an insightful post. You have my interest and attention by the things you have stated. I may have missed them and if I did I apologize in advance but do you have any available video of your female? Also, if you don't mind me asking where are you located?


Thanks Nicole. I took another look at the post and it seems I need to clarify at least one point. Please see PM re video. I am in Tampa.


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Hello Lalit, please see comments below:



Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Angelo,
> First off , Appreciate you taking the time to write this informative post , even though you do not agree with me and probably felt my idea is not founded on valid experience . If you have felt that I am speaking out of lack of appreciation of bouviers , that is not so .
> In my previous posts , I had not written anywhere that I found my bouvier to be lacking in anything or was disatisfied , or I do not think X mali breeders thought that mali was lacking . They just tried to produce a better dog .


I did not get that impression("lack of appreciation of Bouviers"). However hard it may be, to satisfy our curiosity and quest for perfection, one should familiarize further with either or both breeds, before attempting such a cross. In my opinion Fokke and Carolyn have produced what you probably have in mind within the breed. You just need the other piece of the puzzle, trainers and handlers with solid training directors to help - TD who understand how to work these dogs, to showcase what you have in mind. Even if you move forward with your idea, you will still need this part to see if it was worth it...



> To start with , I have to agree that you have a lot more experience with Bouviers and dogs in general . I am a breed fancier , and unfortunately, not just confined to one . The reason I wanted to mix the RS in there , was to have some size , power and some other qualities . I understand that you do not feel so and I respect your opinion . My opinion is just mine and others do not need to agree .


Please see comment, in the paragraph above. I started in the breed with Chico in 1996 - hard act to follow. From what I can see from your posts, you possess a very good understanding of working dogs and breeding theory. My experience is also limited in many fronts and I am expressing my opinion based on an eye that I have kept on the breed, since my first one. I respect your opinion as well. I will repeat though, that I think the breed has those characteristics, you just need to combine the right dogs and lines. For example, I think Carolyn's outcross breeding with Loco (he was sired by Tomba Assenrade which was a littermate to my Chico), was of some contribution to the breed and to the already athletic, energetic and tough dogs Fokke is breeding... Also Carolyn's and Fokke's current breedings with Whiskey. (In one of Whiskey's video's you can see the Bouvier power that I am talking about, in one of the hits on the sleeve. And speaking of Whiskey, if you take a look at this pedigree you will see, Fokrohof, Assenrade and Heukske as well as other Bouvier kennel names. The point being, there are a lot of good genes past forward in these breedings. With some cooperation and planning among breeders the gene pool can get wider ).



> All I said that it is certainly worth a try to mix and a get a good dog without a pedigree . As pedigree doesn't matter to me if a dog works with a bouvier kind of look and bring in something new to the genepool .


I understand. For the present discussion, I view pedigrees as maps rather, than certificates of authenticity-purity.



> And I took the idea from the example X mali breeders as they were able to produce a phenotypically similar looking dogs by crossing malis/Dutchies etc or Xshepherds . And it is most of these dogs that are working in most LE . And I feel that In the Netherlands , police trainers as knowledgeable that they are , would not care about what the breed is , if they feel the dog is good and the price is right . If they do have a problem with the coat maintenance issue that is another thing . I wouldn't know about that .


I am speculating here: Jim Engels has posted in the past, many Bouvier people/breeders gave up on the breed due to ear and tail cropping. I can't remember why, but possibly because they figured the appeal of the dog diminished and their chances for LE placements were becoming slimmer. Of course it did not help that the Mali's were easier/quicker to train... and many of the X dogs are just as tough.




> And you may be right there , it's speculation and and experiment . However , I feel that there are not very many excellent working lines in the Bouvier Genepool except maybe Fokke and a couple of others in the Netherlands .Now I don't want offend any other Bouvier line owners by making these statements . Usually , i prefer to write these kind of posts more privately as they will stir up strong personal feelings .


Actually, I believe there have been some great breedings the last few years. (I will be a bit repetitive here...) The repeats of Cowboy and Dax, Alkemi and Whiskey, Dax and Whiskey, Cowboy with the Assenrade female as well. Cowboy has also studded in at least one maybe two other European breedings that had foundations in Assentrade and Fokrohof-Exchtenhof lines. If someone could keep an eye on the offspring, I guarantee you, there will be several dogs that will surprise many people with many common desirable Bouvier traits as well as different individual characteristics. Among those I am willing to bet, there will be several dogs with legendary potential, should they go to the right homes(again KNPV or IPO trainers and handlers with solid Training Directors in their clubs and possibly someone with a videocamera at the right time...  )





> As you have seen more bouviers than me , I cannot argue with you that I know better . All I wanted to say was , it is worth a try to see breed a good bouvier with a good schnauzer . Both these breeds even though somewhat similar looking are different kind of dogs and good in their own ways . I do not want to discuss as what particular qualities are different on a public forum and I feel it would be a good blend to compliment two good dogs . Like I said before , I may not be correct and you may be right .
> 
> Regards,
> Lalit


I do not attempt to knock down your idea completely. It is possible. However, it will carry unknowns both in temperament and health areas. Great things have happened in all areas of humanity, because some people dared, when others called them crazy. Still, it is my opinion you should learn a lot more about both breeds, and possibly breed both of them. You may discover reasons to abandon the idea or who knows maybe validate it.

Regards.


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Also want to add that some(LE) may feel that a bouvier or schnauzer make take longer to train . I do not have a problem with the time taken as I have that advantage .
> Lalit


I do not see this, as an issue. With the drives available and current training methods, I doubt that would be the case. Once in a while you may get longer maturities with some Bouvier, but that's about it. Some may be hot-headed and stubborn, but the drives of the lines we are discussing, negate that. By the way, both Chico and Tomba were PH1 certified by 3 years old - just like most KNPV dogs. Tomba had Obj and PH2 the following year, if I am not mistaken. I think one of the current PH1s it escapes me which one, also certified early.


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Angelo Berios said:


> Hello Lalit, please see comments below:
> Hello Angelo,
> Thank you for the information . Really appreciate it and it is true that I have to study the bouvier lines before I even contemplate crosses with other breeds . I do not have a knowledge of breeding at all .
> 
> ...


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Angelo,
Thank you for the information . Really appreciate it and it is true that I have to study the bouvier lines before I even contemplate crosses with other breeds . I do not have a thorough knowledge of breeding at all . 

If such an attempt of mixing breeds is made , It should be only made by a very experienced breeder .Otherwise , it will be a waste of time, effort and money.

Will study the lines to get a good understanding of the breed . 

Once again , I really appreciate you putting me on the right path and your post has certainly made me change my views and reform my opinions .
:-D
Regards,
Lalit


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