# What Say You?



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

An uninvited six year-old child opens up the unlocked front door to a home because they mistakenly thought a playmate lived there. The child is confronted by a dog who subsequently mauls the child. The homeowner runs to the front door, pulls their dog off the child and calls 911. The child will survive but has suffered serious injuries. 

Was the owner negligent? 
Will the owner be criminally charged? 
Will the dog be ordered to be put down?
Will the owner be successfully sued? 

I ask because there is a thread on another dog board and there are some that don't apparently believe in locking their doors. I'm trying to tell them that to not do so, especially with bite-trained dogs, potentially puts innocents at risk as well as their dog, themselves and their property. 

What say you?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Shoot the dog and the owners if possible.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I say that's bullshit. Where were the kids parents during this intrusion? When the Police break down the neighbors door, guns drawn because they got the wrong house, who is responsible....the homeowner???? no way.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I say that's bullshit. Where were the kids parents during this intrusion? When the Police break down the neighbors door, guns drawn because they got the wrong house, who is responsible....the homeowner???? no way.


 
Guns drawn ??? Police broke down doors ?? better call your lawyer Don :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Maybe you should start a thread on dogs with shit character. LOL

Or, a thread on why a dog that sees a 6 year old child as a threat is acceptable.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Was the owner negligent? ---- too grey to answer, I am leaning to maybe a little bit, to yes. (If you have a dog like that and YOU KNOW the dog will bite anything in sight, if it isn't you, I'd be on my toes with the dog all the time provided I want to live with the damn thing to begin with)
Will the owner be criminally charged? --- possibly
Will the dog be ordered to be put down? --- he's already dead, he just doesn't know it
Will the owner be successfully sued? -- leaning towards "probably"

As far as dogs mauling children, they should be removed from this planet, zero tolerance policy here. IMO, a dog that mauls a kid, something is missing there, some screw is definitely loose there and it should be put down. What threat is a 6 year old child anyway? A nip or a bark at a kid or a growl *MAY BE* excused, not by me but in perhaps certain circumstancesl), full blown mauling = Glock in the head after you hang up with 911, then clean up your savings account and get a shovel to bury him.

In any way, the way you phrased the story, its either a yes or no, you are after, plus arguments for either side. It's not that easy, but I tried with my 2 cents.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Maybe you should start a thread on dogs with shit character. LOL
> 
> Or, a thread on why a dog that sees a 6 year old child as a threat is acceptable.


Ahhh, maybe this is an example of those dogs that make the decision of when to attack. I've heard about those. 

Personally, I think, since it was a 6 year old, the homeowner has a lot of liability in this. Unless we discover the child has a criminal record for b/e, etc, I don't see them holding the child responsible. So many questions that could be asked. I'll just stick with my first impression. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I just do sport. I like my dogs to just go on the field and do this stuff, that way when people are out and being stupid, the worst that will happen is the dog will jump on them and act goofy.

I have weapons available to shoot those thieving 6 year olds. I hear they are really good with butterfly knives and throwing stars.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The kids parents are responsible for their own kid. Kids may be cute so the law sides with them usually, but, the dog posed no threat as it was. A persons home is his castle is pretty much out the window today. Parents not taking care of their own kid is the problem. Everyone else is supposed to be held liable for what the parents failed to do. Many dogs wouldn't have to be bite trained in this scenario. Dogs never been around kids and is vrery territorial. Any dog could have done the same thing. Not everyone has kids and should be held respnsible for someone elses walking into their home. Had it been a couple of 15 year old home invaders no one would even bother with this. As for the comment on dogs deciding when to attack, mine wouldn't have attacked a kid and that isn't the point here. It is the parents fault for not watching their own kid. The dog was reasonably contained for normal people.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just do sport. I like my dogs to just go on the field and do this stuff, that way when people are out and being stupid, the worst that will happen is the dog will jump on them and act goofy.
> 
> I have weapons available to shoot those thieving 6 year olds. I hear they are really good with butterfly knives and throwing stars.


:-D classic i like that a lot lol


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I had the exact incident happen a couple weeks ago with a chubby mexican kid about 9-10...

walked up the front steps and knocked once and walked right in the house...

The dog was in the crate right by the front door at the time, did not make a peep..if she was out I doubt she would have attacked the kid, but who knows for sure...

I think that homeowner is open to being sued, and needs a great lawyer...regardless of anyone's opinion of the dog...


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Was the owner negligent? 
In my opinion, not just no, but HELL NO. The owner was in their personal residence, not out in public. They did not invite or cause the accident. Now that's in response to "negligent" - liable, quite possibly.

Will the owner be criminally charged? 
Shouldn't, doesn't mean they won't, but it's hard to determine what the DA will consider it as, since it happened in the homeowners home, not out on the street with a dog running at large.

Will the dog be ordered to be put down?
Depends on how the case goes, dog might be deemed as dangerous, or just chalked up to an accident with a dog defending it's home.

Will the owner be successfully sued? 
Probably. Not saying that's right but let's face it, people win lawsuits over more trivial shit all the time.

First off, the kid is 6. My sons a year older, I would come unglued if I found out he walked into anyones house without knocking - manners 101. Where were the parents? Well, I let my oldest play outside without standing over him like a hawk, he's just not allowed out of my neighborhood.

If it was my dog, I'd put it down myself. I don't have tolerance for that, a small child is not a threat and shouldn't be treated like one. So unless there is a union for midget burglars, I'm pretty safe there. 

That being said, I don't expect my neighborhood children to just walk into my house, and none of them ever have and they don't. We have children in my cul-de-sac younger than mine out playing with mine and others unsupervised all the time. They come up and knock on my door even when I leave it open.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

A 6 year old is old enough and should know if a door is closed, and you don't live there....you knock first! No answer- that doesn't mean you are invited in ](*,)....and a dog trained for protection or if is just territorially protective without formal training - isn't given an age cut off...if under 18 don't protect our property[-(let them in.....

at the trauma center-We had a kid-he was young? forget exactly the age, - he decided to take a short cut thru the neighbors yard-as it was quicker to get to his house- well the neighbor had a fenced in yard, with no trespassing and bad dog signs posted. The kid knew the neighbor had big dogs- as he ran across the yard, one of the dogs a Rottie got a hold of him- fortunately the kid recovered- but no charges, the dog was not put down- and the kid did let everyone know it was his fault not the dogs.-I think Florida law helped the dog and dogs owner a lot.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I think all the adults involved are at fault. The dog's owner for not being responsible enough to lock their door. The kids parents for not watching their six year old walk into a house of a playmate. What if it wasnt dog but a predator that just got lucky enough that his next victim walked into his/her house. Call me cynical but I have to know where my young kids are going everytime they walk out of my house. Need to meet the parents and who will be watching them.

Any kid that comes to my house is warned beforehand that they cannot enter the dogs room.( where they are crated. The kids can then have free access to the rest of the house and the yard) If they cant understand it. They will be escorted back to their home and not welcome back until they can follow my rules.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I will be curious how this plays out in court. If the kid came up to the door..saw the dog and took off running..then got bit out of a prey response the dog has a chance of not being destroyed. (would probably only be one hard bite) but however if the kid just walked in and the dog mauled him all over it would be considered a defensive bite leading to questions about the dogs temperment and nerves. Will probably be destroyed.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Wow a lot said here but I think you would need all the pieces to really know the full story. IMO six yr olds aren't perfect not making the best judgement calls. I'm not crazy about any dog that preys upon a child yet I understand dogs too. Just be glad you don't live in litigious Calif. because the kid would get a billion dollars as their is no free bites & I know of cases where homes were being burglarized, dog did his job rightfully and the homeowner had to pay even though the perp had items from neighbors. But you can't beat the weather \\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I had a dog severely maul (in my opinion) a drunk old guy that decided to sleep in the backseat of my car in the winter..

I got up early to go to the river to walk the dog, opened the back door of my unlocked 4 door 1985 Ford Tempo, and dog jumped in...and all hell broke loose...different type of dog than I have now for sure...ate that guy up..probably at least 6-7 bites....bite and rip....bite and rip...

I really felt bad for the guy, I would not have knowingly let the dog attack him for sleeping in the car...

The police told me I had no right to have my dog attack the guy, I explained I did not know it was happening until it was too late...that the dog just did what it did...

never got a call from any police or lawyers, luckily...it just went away, it was the people down the streets' drunk uncle, or something like that...

if it was a 6 yr old kid, the dog still would have mauled him most likely...

my fault? not in my mind.....legally open to charges and/or lawsuits...sure...just as if it was an innocent drunk old man...meaning no harm...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Calif laws are ridiculous. One of my favorites is I have to be in fear of my life. When I took the class for a concealed carry they layed that "fear of my life" on me. Well, I am sorry, if I wake up and someone is in the house at 3 in the morning going through my stuff, I don't have to see a gun to be in fear of my life. I really don't think many people wouldn't be.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Calif laws are ridiculous. One of my favorites is I have to be in fear of my life. When I took the class for a concealed carry they layed that "fear of my life" on me. Well, I am sorry, if I wake up and someone is in the house at 3 in the morning going through my stuff, I don't have to see a gun to be in fear of my life. I really don't think many people wouldn't be.


when you shoot him...just put something in his hand that could be a weapon, that is what the police told me when I moved to the hood in IN...
they also told me if I shot someone in my backyard, to move the body inside the house...LOL WTF??? no joke...I think I would NOT move the body and just put some weapon in his hand, say I was in the backyard...in case they were just kidding...

In my time there I found a dead body in the alley behind my house, and my dog noticed that a guy was dead at the park....and there were 3 murders spread over 2 incidents, across the street from me at one house.....

so mabye...just maybe....the cops weren't lying to me...LOL...who knows...


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

Note to self, stay away from California. 

Now to the topic. Neither child nor owner should be held responisble. The owner was in his home during the day so why would his door be locked? Unless u live in a bad neighborhood why would you lock your door in the middle of the day? 
I do believe the dog should be put down though. A dog who sees a child as a threat has no place here.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristi Siggers said:


> Note to self, stay away from California.
> 
> Now to the topic. Neither child nor owner should be held responisble. The owner was in his home during the day so why would his door be locked? Unless u live in a bad neighborhood why would you lock your door in the middle of the day?
> I do believe the dog should be put down though. A dog who sees a child as a threat has no place here.


where is here? in your house, on earth??? LOL


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

I can't figure out why all of these threads on "holy shit, a dog bit a kid" keep popping up. People can call it what they want to, but when you get right down to it you're an idiot if you think a dog trained for bite work doesn't have the capacity to bite a child if the stars line up right. I don't care if you train it for sport or not. Certain movements/ actions can trigger a dog to bite I don't care what you've trained it for. It will always come back to responsible adults. Period.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> I can't figure out why all of these threads on "holy shit, a dog bit a kid" keep popping up. People can call it what they want to, but when you get right down to it you're an idiot if you think a dog trained for bite work doesn't have the capacity to bite a child if the stars line up right. I don't care if you train it for sport or not. Certain movements/ actions can trigger a dog to bite I don't care what you've trained it for. It will always come back to responsible adults. Period.


I have owned MANY dogs that WOULD bite a kid, but none have...If anyone walked in my house with certain dogs they would be bitten...this dog not sure...never let it happen...other dogs have bitten multiple people, in varying situations (never been charged or sued) just not kids...only had a kid walk in my house once...and dog was crated..luckily..but who knows what would happen..

I think it is crazy that someone would say a dog should be put down automatically.....although I can understand it...some dogs are very territorial...period...man woman or child...with or without training...I can understand that some people cannot comprehend this..I thought it was mostly pet type people, not working dog types...

I personally think that being contained in my house is enough...regardless of age or evil intent....even though it would be terrible and I would expect to be sued...

I think it is BS...every one here says its not good if your dog is so crazy you have to crate him, becuase he cant protect you...I think someone just opening your door and walking in the house is pretty much a call some dogs will make, regardless of age or intent...If I walk in your houses, what is the difference? if it is a mistake, with no malicious intent? will your dogs bite me as an adult or not? or only if I scream and try to hit you??? LOL...(talking about dog loose in house, not dog under commands at the time, being controlled)...or what if the 12 or 16 yr old "break in" or walk in your house???? ....does a dog know if someone is walking in or breaking in? maybe...maybe not...

what age is the cutoff for not biting? 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18??? Seriously, what is it? and how do you train that? a 12 yr old can murder you these days...

the dogs I had for protection were already eating the door before someone tried to turn the knob....they were not checking ID's


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I have owned MANY dogs that WOULD bite a kid, but none have...If anyone walked in my house with certain dogs they would be bitten...this dog not sure...never let it happen...other dogs have bitten multiple people, in varying situations (never been charged or sued) just not kids...only had a kid walk in my house once...and dog was crated..luckily..but who knows what would happen..
> 
> I think it is crazy that someone would say a dog should be put down automatically.....although I can understand it...some dogs are very territorial...period...man woman or child...with or without training...I can understand that some people cannot comprehend this..I thought it was mostly pet type people, not working dog types...
> 
> ...


 I'm with you, Joby. My dogs aren't taught to differentiate between a 13 year old and a 30 year old midget. They are not taught to see a man and woman differently. As far as my dogs a concerned, the only people that belong in the house are the ones who live there. Sorry folks, I don't see it as a flaw because every swinging dick in the world can't pet my dog or even come in the yard without the dogs raising a little hell. I'm not raising or training them to be everyone else's best friend. Do I want them to bite a kid? Hell no! My front door stays locked at all times for this reason, so NO ONE can just walk in. If I have certain dogs in the house and you were to just walk in, you're bit, regardless of age. I don't teach the dogs to card people. And it's not just my big dogs. I've got a 10 pound mini dachshund that will bite you too. Should I put him down if Little Johnny down the road decides to stroll on in the house without knocking?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

The difference Adam, is....damage..

My neighbor's Bichon just bit a kid that walked in their house, about a month ago....a family friend..about 7 yrs old I think...nasty little bite on his arm....no big deal...in the big scope of things...illegal mexican aliens, no police...

if it was a rottweiler, or a pitbull, or a gsd, or a mali, or whatever...it is a vicious dog that should be put down, not because they bite, but because they do more damage...if it a small dog that doesnt maul a kid, it is the kids fault...

Funny thing is that my dog tried to tear that bichon's head off when they left it offleash and it came into my yard and "jumped" us from behind...about 2 months ago..the saving grace was he had a plastic E collar on his head, from the vet, and I had a leash on the dog and once I knew what was going on I was able to get the situation under control quickly...point is they thought my dog was vicious because it tried to attack their little dog that was offleash in my yard, at my feet..
I look at it like, if my dog killed that little vicious bastard, he would have never bit that kid...](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> The difference Adam, is....damage..
> 
> My neighbor's Bichon just bit a kid that walked in their house, about a month ago....a family friend..about 7 yrs old I think...nasty little bite on his arm....no big deal...in the big scope of things...illegal mexican aliens, no police...
> 
> ...


 That's a good point Joby. The damage factor.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

The answer is different here in Canada then it is in the US, but the same basics of law applies.

Criminal charges, no.
Civil liability, maybe.
Dog put down, probably not - depends on your local laws


Without running through a negligence test, I would say there is potential liability and great defence to any claim... but that's what homeowner's insurance is for. I say that because there is an implied presumption that people are allowed on your property (at least in Canada) if they are going to come to your door. However, you have to look at that and then look at the remoteness of whether that would happen combined on the level of training put in that dog and whether the owner has a duty of care to ensure situations don't happen.

It's a long convoluted argument, but would be a good law school exam question.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Patrick Murray said:


> An uninvited six year-old child opens up the unlocked front door to a home because they mistakenly thought a playmate lived there. The child is confronted by a dog who subsequently mauls the child. The homeowner runs to the front door, pulls their dog off the child and calls 911. The child will survive but has suffered serious injuries.
> 
> Was the owner negligent?
> 
> ...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Should the owner of the dog sue the childs parents for negligence which is going to cause them mental anguish for some time to come?. Hell yes.And the kid should sue the parents for letting him get disfigured. The kid should be removed from the parents custody since they obviously don't watch what he is doing. As soon as a kid is involved, everything past that is emotional. Rational thought is out the window.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

If that happened to me I would first blame myself for being a shit trainer and idiot. Then I would blame myself for having a shit dog. Then I would put a bullet in the dogs head. 

Any dog that mauls a child whether in your house or otherwise needs to be dealt with swiftly and seriously and permanently removed from the planet. But that's just me.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> If that happened to me I would first blame myself for being a shit trainer and idiot. Then I would blame myself for having a shit dog. Then I would put a bullet in the dogs head.
> 
> Any dog that mauls a child whether in your house or otherwise needs to be dealt with swiftly and seriously and permanently removed from the planet. But that's just me.



:lol: typical !

im wondering if its not people who make statements like this that need to be removed from the planet permanently instead of the dog in this case....explain to me WHAT the dog did wrong ?

so he bit a kid in his OWN house.....

this suddenly makes him a bad bad dog? yall need to start growing brains instead of making stupid statements....yall think that dogs are human and therefor can reason like a human being....yall are scary people and most probably own a dog that makes the idea even more scary since the poor fker probably doesnt even know its place or what its owner expects of it.....


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> :lol: typical !
> 
> im wondering if its not people who make statements like this that need to be removed from the planet permanently instead of the dog in this case....explain to me WHAT the dog did wrong ?
> 
> ...


Alice sorry I got your hackles up there. Funny how I have owned lots of dogs through the years and some really serious ones mixed in there. I can assure you NONE of them would maul a child walking in to my house. I stand by what I said period. We just simply disagree is all. If you cant see anything wrong in what a dog did in this scenario ... hmmmm 
and by the way I am not crazy and so far I'm planning on staying :smile:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think this topic is quite sensitive for sure, especially with people who have children, or have children visitors.

I think the fact that the kid was trying to visit his little playmate, but went to the WRONG house, which may not have any children present, has some bearing..it is not like he walked into his playmates house, he walked into a strange house, I know someone got that confused a little in this post...

If I had small children and there were strange kids coming and going all the time, or the house was very busy with families coming over all the time, then I would agree with most of you, that the dog was obviously not appropriate for that type of situation...

I lived for almost 10 yrs in a house that only 2 children came in, ever...

The dogs were locked away, the very infrequent times the children came over, which was literally maybe like 10 times over 10 yrs..There was probably a 5 yr stretch when NO child entered my home, I was a bachelor with no kids, and had an adult roomie.

I am sure I owned many dogs that would bite a kid that came into the house, a couple come to mind for sure, one especially, since he would chew on the doorknob to try to open it, when someone knocked and he was not checking ID's at the door...

I lived in a bad neighborhood on the west side of South Bend, IN. Found a dead body in the alley behind the house, and there were 3 murders across the street. I had a permit to carry concealed weapon and did,all the time, I also had a dog that I KNEW would engage someone who tried to enter my home. He was ideal for what I wanted him for at the time. A great dog in my opinion, one of the best I have owned. He was very territorial and anti-social. he lifted his leg to pee at 7 weeks, he started hitting the fences in a serious manner at 7 months, I could put that dog anywhere and he would guard it like it was "his", If I put him in your backyard, he would keep you out of there, there were only 2 people that could handle that dog safely,me and my roomie. 

People use guns to intimidate people mostly, most people are not going to shoot you if you comply, if someone attempted to come in my home with that dog out, they better have that gun loaded and be prepared to start shooting immediately, otherwise the were getting chewed up.

never a false alarm, did not make a peep unless someone actually walked on my property, not sure how he knew, but if they were on the street, nothing, they cut through the grass, he was letting me know...a knock on the door required me to call dog back, put him in a down, or walk up and put him in a down. He was very controllable with guests, he knew if I let people in, they were not to be messed with. Would he bite a guest, sure, if they tried to wrestle with him, or **** with him while he was eating. A quick pet was not a problem, he did not seek attention from strangers..

The dog was well trained and controllable in public as well. Never snapped off, unless commanded to..would tolerate petting, would not take treats from anyone, period....

Did he do his job, yes, never had a breakin, never had any problems, he had the look for sure, people most of the time would give a wide berth on the street, even though he was under perfect control.

People have dogs for different reasons. That fit into different situations. Would I own that type of dog if I had small kids, NO. But does that mean he does not deserve to live? or that he was not a good dog? NO. He was a one in a million, out of the box type dog. Just not an ideal family pet...

I assume that most people here do not have a dog that would bite someone that just walks in their house. 

A dog that is going to bite someone just for entering, is not going to discriminate between sexes or ages. 

Most people, I assume have dogs that will maybe bite someone if commanded to, or that will bite if a violent confrontation, or some sort of edgy standoff occurs, under command or in some case, on their own.

Or dogs that may bite at night.

Most people I assume do not have dogs with active aggression, mixed with territorial and anti-social traits, that do not care if it is day or night, or if the person is a threat. To some dogs, ANY unwelcome intruder is a threat, period...It is up to the people to handle that dog responsibly, it does not mean the dog should be put down in my mind.

This was an unfortunate situation, I am pretty sure the dog in question was not like my dog Ares was, but still bit someone. I think the owners are liable, and need a good lawyer.

I do not own a dog like that now, she doesn't even bark when people come around the car, or knock on the door, or come in the house when we are home, and that is good fit for this situation. That does not mean I have anything against someone else who chooses to own a dog that would not fit into my "family" situation, or that I have anything against a dog that may not be friendly and social with neighbors..

I am sure my neighbors do not like my dog, and think she is vicious, because she does not tolerate it when their little ankle biters come into our yard unfettered, whether the little bastards are aggressive or not. She has been bitten by mutliple little dogs while out walking, because I do not let her defend herself, I blame the owners not the little out of control dogs. So should I put my dog down, because she will attack a loose dog that comes in the yard? and the neighbors think the dog is vicious?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> I can't figure out why all of these threads on "holy shit, a dog bit a kid" keep popping up. People can call it what they want to, but when you get right down to it you're an idiot if you think a dog trained for bite work doesn't have the capacity to bite a child if the stars line up right. I don't care if you train it for sport or not. Certain movements/ actions can trigger a dog to bite I don't care what you've trained it for. It will always come back to responsible adults. Period.


Uh no, my dog isn't that into prey. Movements don't get him going nuts like a rabid beast. If you are a static decoy, he will bite, if you are a threat he will bite, very sure even if I gave the bite command on a nonthreatening child, my dog would look at me like I was on crack. [-X 

Not all dogs get kicked into a craze hearing or seeing screaming kids at play. I play ball at the local park with my dog right next to kids practicing t-ball this time of year. I have 2-3 groups that take over our park and have no choice but to not train/play with my dog or keep him under control around it all. Not all dogs have that control or temperament so it's my call. I'd never have a dog that warrented locking my doors during the day. But a friend of mine acyually had a few incidents when she moved to her new house of neighborhood kids just barging in. Stupid ass parents that needed a talking to and it stopped.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

First off I think the homeowner shouldn't be punished for this incident . A person "should" be able to leave his/hers doors unlocked and not have anyone come into their home uninvited . 

But I subscribe to the Gunney's philosophy here . 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCNGaafnAGk

I'm an inner city kid and living in close proximity to so many people one thing you learn is that puts you in close proximity to lots of stupid people . Leaving your home or other stuff unlocked or unsecured just invites stupid sh** to happen . Should you be able too ? Yes but reality says otherwise .

This scenerio is a wash for me , the parents got their kid bit because they didn't watch it or teach it not to do that and homeowner could have dumb**** proofed his house by locking the doors . 

If I was on some civil jury because said parents sued . I'd find in favor of the homeowner because his home is his castle and the kid shouldn't be there . 

If the suit was the other way around and homeowner was sueing the parents I award the homeowner a penny for his problems because they could have been avoided by simply locking the door . He has a right not to but reality is something like that may happen so tough luck it's not that big of a hastle to lock the door .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The dog owners should not be liable for anything in any way. The only question is was the dog , by anyones definoition, being safely confined. Yes he was. Now you have someone with a dog and a good life going about their business responsibly, whose lives are now totally fked up because some morons weren't watching ther kid. The dog owners should be able to hold the parents totally responsible. Could have been an off duty canine officer with the depts dog. Same thing would have likely happened.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

As an K9 Officer who had one of my K9s living in the house I choose to lock my doors . If guests came over depending who it was , sometimes I secured him other times I let him be out amongst us . If I had little kids running in and out of the house say while having a birthday party I secured the dog . That's what I chose to do to avoid problems . 

Not trying to force anyone to subscribe to my way of doing it but life is full of risks and in many cases people have the right to take those risks . For me this isn't one I would like to take so I lock my dors . Not a real big deal to me to do that just the turn of a lever .


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I really love the " well it is your fault for not having locked your door" people. Kinda like the Gunny.

It is an odd philosophy. I sorta subscribe to the shit happens philosophy. However, when discussing this with different people over the years, I used to show them a little trick. I would reach out and snatch them by the neck, and kick their legs out from under them.

If it is my fault for not having locked my door, then what everyone else has is mine, because I am larger, faster, and angrier than they are. I am more willing to do you harm, so your shit is not your shit, it is mine. You only have it because I allow you to do so.

I developed that mindset because of the "well you should have locked it up, so it is your fault" people.

If you have something, and you cannot keep me from taking it by force, then it is your fault. LOL

A lot of excuses for dogs with in my opinion, a bad temperament.

What happens when the innocent 6 year olds steroid enraged father who benches 700 pounds and is 6'9" rips the door off the hinges, snaps your dogs neck like a twig, and starts beating you to death with your own arm ?? LOL 

Same stupid no win scenario.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I have to agree with you Don. Dog is at home minding his own business, as was the owner on his own property. What if he was screwing his wife on the couch and the kid got an eyefull? Lousy parenting is lousy parenting, I can't see how that can be pinned on an innocent neighbor or his dog for going about their day. Parents need to suck it up or lose custody alltogether. If your 6 yr old is clearly incapable of finding the right door to enter, incapable of knocking, how do you justify sending him on his merry way unatended for anything? Can't train or read their own kids, they sure as shit can't read or train a dog. Spay/neuter parents pronto!

Tresspassing is tresspassing, cops can't even let themselves in, nobody gets a free pass. Ill will or innocent mistake, think before you act! 

Would I lock my doors if I had such a dog or was screwing my man on the couch...probably, but if I forget and someone else walks in...who is at fault? I was behind a closed door right? What is the law for trying a door knob when you get no answer or don't even knock for one? Probably varies by state, I'm not a cop but I would have to call it at least tresspassing, if not unlawfull entry, possible breaking and entering???

Parents keep your criminal 6yr olds at home or under your thumb. You should be personally attendig your child for the first handfull of trips to any location to scope it out for creeps, dangers and whathave you. By then your child should be clear on what freakin' house he is headed to and privy to things like knocking and waiting for someone else to open the door, not letting yourself in.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I really love the " well it is your fault for not having locked your door" people. Kinda like the Gunny.
> 
> It is an odd philosophy. I sorta subscribe to the shit happens philosophy. However, when discussing this with different people over the years, I used to show them a little trick. I would reach out and snatch them by the neck, and kick their legs out from under them.
> 
> ...


Never said it was the homeowners fault . I even said I would find in favor of him if there were a lawsuit . I just am not going to get that worked up for the homeowner if that stuff happens to him(in regards to the bite incident) . 

I don't blame a victim of theft if they do that either . I look just a hard for there stuff because I hate theives and there stuff shouldn't be taken but please don't make it easy for them .

If the guys doing it to prove a point and doesn't mind the hassle what will come if some dumb**** walks in there house more power to him . If the homeowner is going to get that emotional upset that something happened and in my area it's not a far fetched thing then he should lock the door .

Buy the way I'm still looking for the stuff you got stolen Jeff .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well, I dn't think there s a law that says I have to lock my doors when I get home...but it is probably coming in the near future from what I see here.

Jim said it best in this is a no fault scenario. The homeowner should not be held liable for anything. No one should be sueing anyone. The six year old could have just as easily walked into the road and been run over....no dog involved. Now, had the dog owner gone over to the kids house and opened the door and let his dog into their house, I would say he is responsible.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I really love the " well it is your fault for not having locked your door" people. Kinda like the Gunny.
> 
> It is an odd philosophy. I sorta subscribe to the shit happens philosophy. However, when discussing this with different people over the years, I used to show them a little trick. I would reach out and snatch them by the neck, and kick their legs out from under them.
> 
> ...


Jeff, it's as simple as the word "hit" in my case, packen, attaque, drz, stellen for others. We all differ on what we want out of our dogs, you don't require your dog to bite off the field, others apparently are ok with a dog making it's own calls, I'm in the middle. My dog better not decide to bite without a command but he is trained to bite at home too on command only.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, I dn't think there s a law that says I have to lock my doors when I get home...but it is probably coming in the near future from what I see here.
> 
> Jim said it best in this is a no fault scenario. The homeowner should not be held liable for anything. No one should be sueing anyone. The six year old could have just as easily walked into the road and been run over....no dog involved. Now, had the dog owner gone over to the kids house and opened the door and let his dog into their house, I would say he is responsible.



I agree Don there shouldn't be a law requiring you to lock your doors and it should be a persons choice if they want to or not . 

I do think there is fault with the parents though in this case .


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

So do people have to have a lock on their yard gates too? If a person/kid opens the latch on a gate to the backyard and lets themselves in and gets bit, would people say the gate should have been locked if there was a dog inside? Just trying to understand the rules down there....

What about if the kid lets themselves in a gate to a yard with a pool in it and drowns?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Buy the way I'm still looking for the stuff you got stolen Jeff . 

Thanks for that. LOL

It has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. I do not take other peoples things, and if I find them, I try and return them, or leave them with a manager or whatever. 

I have always liked the idea that a thief that gets caught loses a hand. When I read about people getting in trouble for wacking a thief in their house, it makes me a little crazy.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> So do people have to have a lock on their yard gates too? If a person/kid opens the latch on a gate to the backyard and lets themselves in and gets bit, would people say the gate should have been locked if there was a dog inside? Just trying to understand the rules down there....
> 
> What about if the kid lets themselves in a gate to a yard with a pool in it and drowns?


 
If it unlocked your up shits creek--at least thats what happened to a close friend of mine (lost a big chunk of change)


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> If it unlocked your up shits creek--at least thats what happened to a close friend of mine (lost a big chunk of change)


Very interesting Will. Do most people have padlocks on their yard gates in the US?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

no not that many


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Very interesting Will. Do most people have padlocks on their yard gates in the US?


You're going to find things vary from area to area . I don't think someone is going to lose in a lawsuit in this area if someone walks into their fenced in yard and gets bit . I haven't heard of anything like that anyways . 

Minnesota is weird in that they are very touchy feely for the most part on many issues but when it comes to protecting yourself or your property they are in favor of the victim . I know of one guy in our city that has shot and killed 2 people on his property protecting his family and himself on 2 seperate occassions since I've been on the job . Never been charged with a crime . He did like anyone involved in such incidents , police included , have to have the incident go through a grand jury who descides if it was justifiable and they ruled in his favor both times . 

But then again it may depend on a jury and having been a Deputy Sheriff guarding juries during deliberations , I've heard juries make some stupid findings for some assinine reasons . 

The bigger problem IMO is that people can actually sue for stuff like that . 

Around here most people don't lock their gates .


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> The bigger problem IMO is that people can actually sue for stuff like that .
> 
> Around here most people don't lock their gates .


Yah..

When I was a kid I was really into gymnastics. I wanted a trampoline in my backyard for practice. My parents always said no because they were worried about uninvited kids comming into the fenced yard to play on the trampoline and putting themselves in wheelchairs. My parents likely said that as an excuse to not buy me one....but man that shitty reason always pissed me off:-x Because of stupid other kids I can't have a trampoline? =;


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> ... What about if the kid lets themselves in a gate to a yard with a pool in it and drowns?


A pool (aka an "attractive nuisance" in legal jargon) must be well guarded against kids .... probably everywhere in the country.

A locked gate (where I am) is absolutely required, and that alone is probably insufficient if it's easily climbed. JMO!

There are other ahead-of-time precautions, such as never allowing use of your pool when you are not present (setting an unsafe precedent).

Trampoline too. 

I can see a dog in the yard as maybe falling into a similar category (legally) as far as small kids go. _Of course_ it's the parents' responsibility (in the land of sanity), but in the land of ubiquitous lawsuits, I can picture the owner being found liable if the gate was unlocked and the kid entered and was bitten.

But I'd never trust an unlocked gate, anyway ..... anyone could leave it open, deliberately or not, thereby letting out your dog.

My gates aren't locked. But my dogs are never left alone in the yard.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Very interesting Will. Do most people have padlocks on their yard gates in the US?


I don't know about anyone else but I do (front and back) and the doors on my home are all kept locked. I started locking the gates when one of my windows facing the back yard was broken out (home was burglarized). How'd he get back there to begin with? Through a side gate that wasn't locked.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I definitely lock my yard gate. I don't like people to have unfettered access to my backyard, especially at night. There's a padlock on the barn door style one and one on the back gate as well.
I lock my doors before I go to bed as well, but I don't leave them locked during the day unless I leave. Most of the time when the weather is nice, I leave my front door open with just the screen closed. 

All a locked door does is keep an honest person honest. All my gate lock does is make it harder for me to jump it when I lock my keys in the house and have to crawl through the dog door.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

What happens when a six year old goes on to unlocked property, opens your unlocked front door, lets the dog out of an unlocked crate, takes the unlocked muzzle off the dog, then gets bit. Who's to blame? At what point to personel property rights start?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

My gate isn't locked and I have come home and found notes on my door staeting that PG&E was here. 25 unkenneled dogs and people still walk in. I do keep the young ones between the gate and the house. All the utility companies have it on record that they are not to come in this yard unless I am notified prior and I am home. They do it anywayb but I have it on record they have been told not to come in.

Guy just came and picked up a pup. Titan pissed all over his pants and shoes. I suppose I am responsible for that?


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Guy just came and picked up a pup. Titan pissed all over his pants and shoes. I suppose I am responsible for that?


 That's funny as hell.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> So do people have to have a lock on their yard gates too? If a person/kid opens the latch on a gate to the backyard and lets themselves in and gets bit, would people say the gate should have been locked if there was a dog inside? Just trying to understand the rules down there....?


Jennifer, it is my understanding that, in many jurisdictions, pools must be surrounded by a_ secured_ fence. What I take from that is if a child wanders onto property through an _unsecured_ gate and falls into and drowns in their pool then the owner would either be fully or partially responsible for the child's death in the eyes of the law. I surmise it would be different if the fence and gate were secured and the child climbed over the fence and drowned. In the latter scenario here I believe the law would say that the owner took_ reasonable_ measures to prevent such an occurence as prescribed by law. 

I'm not a lawyer or in law enforcement but I am inclined to believe that a similar case could be made for dogs. 

In any event, a quick google search provides Arizona's statutes with regard to pools:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/36/01681.htm


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> What happens when a six year old goes on to unlocked property, opens your unlocked front door, lets the dog out of an unlocked crate, takes the unlocked muzzle off the dog, then gets bit. Who's to blame?


You Jamie...we'll all blame you! ;-):razz:


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

As for trampolines, my homeowner policy specifically asks me to disclose if I have a trampoline on my property. I don't have one. So let's say I buy one and one of my son's invited friends gets hurt on it and I get sued. Do you think the insurance company might tell me they don't have to cover the incident because I hadn't disclosed it? I think they might try to get out of it. After all, insurance companies loathe to have to pay a claim. Undoubtedly this has happened somewhere. I wonder if the insurance company could successfully avoid having to cover a claim in this scenario. Anybody know?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

There are actual measurements for pool fences, they must be so high and have a certain latch up high, out of younger childrens reach. Never had a pool so don't know specifics but I know most folks around here have 6 foot fences and latches at the top. Being Califukya, we probably are at fault for not locking our gates if an idiot gets bit walking in. Signs probably need to be posted and all that crap and we can probably still be sued. 

I can't wait to move so I can just shoot tresspassers at will.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim, I take it that you would _not _arrest the owner in this scenario; is that correct? What type of criteria would warrant an arrest? Incidentally, I realize that you could decline to arrest and yet the local state attorney's office could still file charges. 

If the owner's dog was a Collie and there was no history of aggression then I suppose that would be in favor of the owner. On the other hand, if the dog was a bite-trained GSD with a reputation for being "aggressive" then, perhaps, the owner would be viewed differently by the law. In the original scenario this aspect wasn't touched on.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I can't wait to move so I can just shoot tresspassers at will.


LOL Michelle, I think we're all gonna end up living in Texas!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Very interesting Will. Do most people have padlocks on their yard gates in the US?


I did...LOL...masterlocks....dogs can pop latches, even the "dog proof" kind...

It is all a liability with the wrong incident and wrong jury or lawyers. My buddy settled out of court for around 10K cause a teenager was hanging out on HIS front porch and got scared when he brought his 6 month old puppy back to the house. Kid got scared, jumped off porch, over a fence, into his OWN yard and broke his ankle....

dog did not even try to bite the kid...

I imagine even if I walk the dog onleash in a muzzle and someone gets scared and jumps into the street and gets hit by a car, that I could be sued...I bet it has happened.

Sad part is they don't have to win a big settlement to cost you a bunch...and your dog doesn't even have to do anything really, if someone wants to file a lawsuit...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> Jim, I take it that you would _not _arrest the owner in this scenario; is that correct? What type of criteria would warrant an arrest? Incidentally, I realize that you could decline to arrest and yet the local state attorney's office could still file charges.
> 
> If the owner's dog was a Collie and there was no history of aggression then I suppose that would be in favor of the owner. On the other hand, if the dog was a bite-trained GSD with a reputation for being "aggressive" then, perhaps, the owner would be viewed differently by the law. In the original scenario this aspect wasn't touched on.


I wouldn't arrest . There is nothing I to arrest him for . I would make a dogbite report which gets forwarded to Animal Control . 

Animal Control would then descide if anything further needs to be done . If this is the dog's first bite I don't think anything further would be done other then making sure the dog was current on it's shots and monitoring it for Rabies for a certain time . If it's had other bites that would be a different story and they would look closely at the circumstances of all the bites the dog has had . 

To my knowledge in St Paul they don't take into account any bite training the dog may have had . In a civil lawsuit that would be a different story . The lawyer would use anything at his or her disposal to win the case .


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## Brian Batchelder (Mar 11, 2011)

How about this?

I prop a shotgun up at the front door becauuse my home is my castle.

One day, *in my castle*, my dumb wife throws something in the fireplace which emits thick black smoke. Someone calls the Fire department.

Fire Department knocks on the front door and nobody answers. They try the front door *which is unlocked* and attempt to say "helloooo? is anybody home? Something doesn't look quite right here and time is of the essence..." But before they can do that, BLAM.

"Who is responsible?"

The answer is obvious, as Don pointed out.

The police are responsible.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Brian Batchelder said:


> How about this?
> 
> I prop a shotgun up at the front door becauuse my home is my castle
> 
> ...



You are responsible...you should not have left the shotgun by the front door where the FD could get to it before you:lol:


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## Brian Batchelder (Mar 11, 2011)

Let's keep this serious. Thanks.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Brian Batchelder said:


> Let's keep this serious. Thanks.


so sorry...

do you really keep your shotgun by the front door?


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## Brian Batchelder (Mar 11, 2011)

I can neither confirm nor deny that in order to maintain my tactical advantage over errant 6 year olds.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL, talk about keeping it serious,. Proping a shotgun up in the dog shows a bit of indescretionary intent to do harm to normal thinking people. Some of you just have to test the limits of reality. I yhave had dogs in a place of business when the FD came in to put out a fire when a swithch shorted out on a heated pressure washer. The dog would just as soon bite me as anyone else. They had no problem. Bit different than a shot gun proped inside the door....to most people anyway.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

True story: When my husband was a kid his family used to take a summer trip every year to a lake resort that had a series of cabins. One year they got a different cabin then usual. Peter and his twin (around 6 years old) always had a competition to see who caught the first fish. Peter (my husband) did and was so excited to run back and tell mom & dad that he ran back, burst in the door of the cabin and started whooping and hollering about his fish. Problem was he was so excited he ran into the wrong cabin.

So I guess what I take from it is shit happens. I don't think you can blame the dog/homeowner, but it's kind of like driving. When I was a kid learning to drive you always heard how important it was to drive defensively. I guess if you have a dog loose in your house, it would behoove you to keep your doors locked. For me, common sense dictates keep your doors locked. 

BUT so then does this extend to our yards? Should we keep our yard gates under lock and key? Couldn't the scenario just as easily happen with a kid opening a gate and wandering into a back yard with a dog who is inclined to bite? I would have to think yes, if you have that kind of a dog, it's your responsibility to protect innocents, maybe have a closing mechanism too high for young children to reach? After all, they require swimming pools be fenced a certain way to protect children from wandering into our pools, right?

I guess I don't know the answer, good thread, thanks for making me think. It's also good to see what everyone else thinks and does.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> So I guess what I take from it is shit happens. I don't think you can blame the dog/homeowner,


You're correct..shit happens, but when the child bit belongs to your family it's not quite so easy to take the high road, whatever the circumstances were.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Kind of sad that you have to start crating your dogs, in your own house because somebody could walk in, uninvited and sue you over for being bitten or knocked over, regardless of age. 

What ever happened for being responsible for your own actions or manners?

I would never even think of walking into somebody elses house uninvited, however, over here, especially in the country it seems to be a normal thing. People just walk in, without even knocking or saying "hello". 

At one point the propane guy simply opened the deck-door, even though I have had a warning sign on the house that we have dogs, I just got out the shower and stood there in a towell and that guy, I have never seen in my life stands in the door. 

Forgive me, but I thought he was a home intruder and my dogs went berserk. Thank god they didn't bite him, they could have killed him and luckily he got back out before something happened. Next time he came out, he went to the front door and rang the bell.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> Kind of sad that you have to start crating your dogs, in your own house because somebody could walk in, uninvited and sue you over for being bitten or knocked over, regardless of age.


The question wasn't about crating one's dog but about locking the door. In the scenario described a locked door would have prevented the child from being able to enter the residence which would have further prevented said child from being mauled by owner's dog. In my humble opinion I believe locking one's door to prevent such an occurence is a reasonable and responsible measure that dog owners (like most of us here) should adhere to. 

I agree that one's home is their "castle, so to speak. At the same time, I think it could be said that a child getting attacked and mauled after mistakenly entering the wrong residence is, to say the least, _excessive_. If that's _not _excessive, what is? If the dog killed the child, would the reader still say the owner is not responsible? Is it legal for an owner to shoot dead a six year-old for doing nothing more than opening the front door and stepping into the owner's home? I don't believe it is. But it's ok if their dog mauls the kid? That doesn't seem reasonable to me. 

Here's one for ya. A number of years ago I got with a Florida Highway Patrol K-9 officer. We did some bitework with his dog and mine in his back yard. A few days later I stopped by his house. I walked up to his residence and found the front door open with only a screen door closed. I rang the doorbell and was a bit surprised to see the officer's four year-old son and his K9 greet me at the door. His son cheerfully opened the door. I didn't enter. [-X I called into the house and the officer came to the door and told me to come in. 

Instead of me, what if a neighbor kid opened the screen door and just walked in (uninvited) to play with his buddy and ended up getting attacked and mauled by the K9? I'm inclined to think that officer would no longer _be_ an officer and the state of Florida would have been writing a _really_ big check to the parents of that child.


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## Cassandra Lane (Jul 2, 2010)

Unfortunatly in todays world not only do you have to protect the stupid from yourself, but you have to protect them from _themselves _as well. I find it disheartening that in todays world I cannot defend myself or my property in which ways I see fit. 

As for having a dog attack a child, I too do not believe that my dogs have to be child friendly. I do not have children and when children *do* come to the house, the dog is crated. The dog is for *my* enjoyment. Proper manners are not taught in todays world, to the youth. In todays society where some sick people inhabit it, it makes one wonder why the 6 year old was left unattended at all.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

An accident is an accident. If the child were killed it would be a tragic, traumatic, horrible thing but an accident nonetheless. Noone is at fault. The kid made a mistake, the dog reacted to a stranger entering its home. I certainly hope we lock our doors from now on after thinking of this hypothetical.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Some like to twist it to the likes of protecting your house and you shoot a six year old; dogs are not human.

This is mother natures way of trying to get rid of stupid people, just like the kids who don't wear helmets while skateboarding or riding bikes. I don't feel bad for people who don't think before they do something.

This all falls back on the parents and the kid.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Dont agree in any way that it is irresponsible to not lock your doors, even if you have dogs. I dont even understand that mindset.....No one is supposed to enter your house with out permission. An accident like the one proposed in this thread is an unusual occurrence. There are entire areas/towns where most of the people dont lock their doors, ever. I know people who dont know where their house keys are. It is slowly changing where I live--5 years ago, I only locked my doors at night. I lock the front door when I leave the house now, but not the back. 

In this scenario I cant see how the homeowner is responsible. I dont blame the child either, (yes the parents should have been more attentive, but honestly some kid are fearless and move FAST)--it is a simple accident that ended extremely badly. I have to say, if it were my dog, I would probably put it down. I am not a fan of overly aggressive animals. 
And anyone can sue anyone for anything...has nothing to do with what is legal or responsible. I would think that the homeowner's homeowner insurance would cover the medical expenses. I dont believe in suing for pain and suffering unless the accident was due to negligence.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

This all sort of reminds me of something that happened here many years ago - part of why pits get such a bad name and reputation. These people in a lower class neighborhood, had a pit that they kept chained in their yard as a deterrant as they were known to distribute drugs at their home plus they had no fencing. The dog was trained to protect it's property and was probably taunted and teased to make it mean.

A young child, about 3 or 4 years old, somehow managed to get out of it's home without anyone noticing it was missing (probably visiting the drug house????) This child lived like 3 blocks away. Somehow the child managed to make it to this house with the dog chained in front. The child, probably thinking "puppy, puppy", went into the yard, to the dog. Needless to say, the dog mauled the child.

Me, personally, the dog was doing the job it was trained to do. Where the f were the parents and how did this small child ever manage to go unnoticed that long? The dog was held responsible and was euthanized. Now, I am very sorry that the child was hurt very badly....I can't remember if she lived or not. But the news ate up the fact that this was a vicious pit bull drug lord dog and how dare it attack a child.

So, in this case, guess we'll all have to wait and see what the jury says. I would hope that my dogs would have the discretion to realize the child was not a threat, but dogs are not people and do not reason like people. If they have not been exposed to children, all they see is a small prey animal tottering around. So I will be interested in seeing the outcome. Kinda like the thread on the guy who bit the police k9 sueing the city.


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## Brian Batchelder (Mar 11, 2011)

A pitbull advocate might say that a proper pitbull should be benign toward humans. You know...since humans gotta handle them in the midst of a dog fight.

I also enjoy how you legitimized the kind of "training" which takes place in low income neighborhoods...the kind with pitbulls.

Yeah, it's a real head scratcher how pits get a bad name. :-?


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

just a view from the vet's office from one side of town to the other


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## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

$hitty sitch.
Who's ultimately at fault = Parents.
Either the kid is an extremely with-it 6 year old; and can walk to a buddy's house (I'm saying NOGO here), and he effed up, or he shouldn't have been wandering loose at all anyway. Even if he made it to (what he thought was) buddy's house -- etiquette all the way -- Knock, knock -- anyone home? ding dong, etc.

Now if I am dog owner; and being sued (as everyone has suggested; it is extremely possible civilly, never mind what/if any charges are laid).

1. My dog is not familiar with children.
2. My dog has never bit anyone before.
3. My dog isn't protective in the least.
4. My dog is on meds; is sick; is having a bad day; is in season; is living in a house with an intact bitch and has his testicles, the moon is in Aquarius and it causes him issues, etc. etc.
5. It wasn't my dog, I was looking after him for a friend that passed away.
6. My door wasn't locked because; I was waiting for my spouse and they forgot their key, I was waiting for the locksmith because the lock doesn't work, I unlocked it because I was on my way out the door to go take my dog to his twice weekly outing as a therapy dog. 

Would I put the dog down? Not my dog; not my house; don't know the background -- if the person is new to the area and wasn't aware that 6 year olds are allowed to wander unattended through the neighbourhood and are in the habit of entering without permission; really how is it the owner's/dog's fault.

Meh, I have kids and I have a kid dog (she loves children, chums with them when we have parties and sleep overs), she knows children, but if they arrive in a hoody and are jacking around (Mitchie's friends aren't all that dog savy) -- she's gonna warn them, so they get told; hoods down and say hi -- she isn't prey driven; so kids are pretty safe; cause she warns first and is a mastiff (slow to go; so I have time to intervene.) I have a trainer friend who doesn't have kid dogs; a couple sharp ones and a couple high-drive ones. The sharp ones don't like kids -- and she never lets them interact with children (she keeps her doors locked/dogs crated when I visit), the high prey drive ones; well, kids are spinny and squeaky; I could see a situation of a highly territorial dog; rushing a kid; them squeaking or flapping hands and getting mauled -- kids aren't going to shut down and stop screaming/flailing when a dog is on top of them biting; it's a $hit-show for sure. 

If the dog owner in this situation agreed to training and better containment; then I would decide no charges and keep dog, but the way society goes these days, I'm thinking that is unlikely and he's screwed anyway.

I'm not very sympathetic, and when I find out that jay-walkers who get dinged by cars get jay-walking tickets; I cheer. Is the 6 year old responsible; no; his parents are; and that is where the blame should be laid. Is there a bottom end for the age for trespassing? 

Ontario's Trespass to Property act doesn't mention an age at all; just that there is a presumption~ that access for lawful purposes to the door of a building on premises by a means apparently provided and used for the purpose of access is not prohibited. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 3

I do like this part of the act however Entry on premises may be prohibited by notice to that effect and _entry is prohibited without any notice on premises_,

(a) that is a garden, field or other land that is under cultivation, including a lawn, orchard, vineyard and premises on which trees have been planted and have not attained an average height of more than two metres and woodlots on land used primarily for agricultural purposes; or

(b) that is enclosed in a manner that indicates the occupier’s intention to keep persons off the premises or to keep animals on the premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 3 (1).


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Yes it is the parents fault, but if I had a nutbag dog that would eat up a child, I would be super vigilant in containing his nutty ass. Keeping him locked up at all times, knowing what a sue happy world we live in and how retarded people have become regarding not so common sense these days. It's called covering your own ass. Either don't have a kid eater or keep it 100% away from public, if not, your fault or not, the law often sees things in a different way. Your taking chances.

I for the life of me can't see what use this kind of dog is in society. This is the kind of dog that needs to be on security work, not living at home or in town. Plenty of stable dogs out there that will bite when appropriate and not maul children who pose no threat.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is it, now isn't it ? All this talk about "training" the dog to "percieve" the threat and do it's job............ yet a child is considered a threat in this situation ??

Bad dog. LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I can pose this question in a little bit different scenario, take "aggressvie" out of the equation, you still have a seriously injured child:

Some little kid, who is friends with your kid, who knows your dog, comes over when no one is home. He sees the dog in the backyard, let's himself in to play with your loose dog. The dog and the child are now interacting with no supervision. The kid sees the dog's ball so the kid runs over, grabs the ball and throws it for the dog. Game morphs into the kid playing "keep away" with the ball. In the excitement of the game, the dog tries to grab the ball, but catches the kids hand and face in his mouth and the resulting accidental bite requires surgery.

Who is at fault? Who pays?

In my opinion, it is the fault of the child, and the child's parents should be responsible for the medical costs, BUT the best solution would be to prevent this kind of thing from happening, so again, common sense tells me an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so for me, the gates closing mechanisms should be high enough so that little kids can't access them.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Who is at fault? Who pays?


Since you drew up this scenario it is YOUR fault, Susan. After all, you could have made it where the kid _didn't_ get bit! :mrgreen:\\/


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> Since you drew up this scenario it is YOUR fault, Susan. After all, you could have made it where the kid _didn't_ get bit! :mrgreen:\\/


 
hahaha! 
Here is the actual scenario that happened to one of my clients many years ago. I changed it because I wanted it to be less cut and dried for the purposes of this discussion.

A woman brought her toddler over to my clients house. My client had a big dog. The toddler was playing with the dog, the toddler grabbed the dogs toy, raised it to throw it, in the dogs excitement he lunged for the ball, but grabbed the kids hand and also caught the kids cheek with a canine. Kid had to have multiple surgeries. The homeowners policy paid out the total policy liability limit of coverage.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

That's just an unfortunate accident. Poor kid. :-({|=


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Sue, in your senario, the kid never gets the ball from the dog. Kid can pull on the rope all day or try and pry the dogs mouth open. Kid is not getting it to throw, problem solved. Dog doesn't let go of the ball for anyone but family and even then, sometimes I have to give him the "look" and he will release. He will growl if you eye **** him or get in his grill but he wont let go to bite anyone. He knows if he just holds on, nobody can get it away from him, so he doesn't get insecure about losing it. The worst he will do is wiggle his way free and trot off victorious.

I get kids at the park that want to throw the ball for him, so I will do that occasionally. Dog isn't the one with issues, sometimes I have to put an end to it because the kids wanna get stupid...try to trick the dog once I out him or yank the ball from him real quick(which only breaks the damn rope) kid goes flying backwards on his ass. Dog doesn't care who throws it, it's the same old game he loves and plays daily, but he always brings it back to me. LOL

I have a latch on my gate, same type as you hook your leash on with. No lock but someone would have to make a serious decision to unlatch it, flip up the gate handle and enter the kennel. I'm not too worried about anyone trying to open the door, I'm taking caution because my dog knows how to open the gate without the latch himself and THAT would be my fault. Dog will act the fool to anyone walking up to his gate, you would have to be suicidal to want to open it, unless you are family. Once loose, he quits barking and all that crap. Should have seen the meter readers' face when I walked out and let the dog out after he just went off on the guy, dog totally ignored him, grabbed his ball and was ready to hit the park. 

Not sure why it's only his kennel he gets goofy protective over. You could proably break in my car while he is inside and he never barks in his crate, unless he can see bitework going on.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Yes it is the parents fault, but if I had a nutbag dog that would eat up a child, I would be super vigilant in containing his nutty ass. Keeping him locked up at all times, knowing what a sue happy world we live in and how retarded people have become regarding not so common sense these days. It's called covering your own ass. Either don't have a kid eater or keep it 100% away from public, if not, your fault or not, the law often sees things in a different way. Your taking chances.
> 
> I for the life of me can't see what use this kind of dog is in society. This is the kind of dog that needs to be on security work, not living at home or in town. Plenty of stable dogs out there that will bite when appropriate and not maul children who pose no threat.


I think you are right on the money. I think people should try and socialize their dogs with kids if they are in a place where kids live close by. It can be done, I have done it. If the dog can not be around kids make sure it never comes into conact with them.It is an owners responsibility. Maybe not legaly, but moraly. 
What some of you do not understand is, even good kids with good parants do dumb sh*t. Thats the way it is. I have had dogs that go ape sh*t when an adult comes around but they let kids come and go. I have five kids and have raised some to adutlhood. I raised them right andf dont think they would just walk into some ones house without knocking, but who the hell really knows. Kids are stupid some times, all of them. And that includes me, mine, and every one here at one time or another when they were kids


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