# Training with and without toy



## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Ok, I started a youtube page and was able to load my video. A few notes - we have had a ton of rain so my yard is flooded so I am trying to stay on the concrete. I will do another video this weekend when I can get out to the building without walking thru 6+ inches of water. 
I do train with him separate from the other dogs also but we do allot when we are just out playing. My dogs do not go after another dogs toy and ICE is the only dog that tugs and stays focused. The old girl is usually not that demanding. 
This shows how I am starting to work without the toy actually in my hand or pocket. 

https://youtu.be/X85NMWc1XXo


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

What a great job you are doing! Love his come to heel so snappy and clean... very schutzhund like ... good job managing several dogs too ... love it! Thanks


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> What a great job you are doing! Love his come to heel so snappy and clean... very schutzhund like ... good job managing several dogs too ... love it! Thanks


Thank you! That really means allot to me!


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Nice Patty. It makes sence that your dogs have their own personal toys. I never thought of that because only my Mal really likes toys, and as many as he can fit into his mouth. Nice work with Ice. My Shepinois that I got at 9 weeks went thru a two year nervous period. She was always improving, but like no dog I'd ever raised from a pup. Unlike your Ice though, she has never really developed a prey drive for toys, strangely. I had to learn fast how to control her wanting to bite when excited by the mailman, horses and other dogs. Don't think my journey was as rough, but it taught me a lot and is still teaching me. Looking forward to more videos and posts!


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Thank you Gina!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i like your tone of voice when working in this type situation 

soooo many of my customers get amped up when their dogs do :-(
- there's a time and a place for everything


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

rick smith said:


> i like your tone of voice when working in this type situation
> 
> soooo many of my customers get amped up when their dogs do :-(
> - there's a time and a place for everything



I noted that as well and find it refreshing and I know her dogs do too lol


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

That was one of the coolest vids I have ever seen


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Wow, thank you so much everyone. It makes me feel like I am on the right track. Much of our work is done like that. I am going to try to get another video today (since the water is down and I can get to the building LOL) of him working on his own.


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Here is another video. We seems to struggle a little when the toy is behind him. 
Any suggestions or ideas to improve are welcome. 

https://youtu.be/3Z7AG_-4Co4


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Patty Beck said:


> Here is another video. We seems to struggle a little when the toy is behind him.
> Any suggestions or ideas to improve are welcome.
> 
> https://youtu.be/3Z7AG_-4Co4


Patty he seems to me in this video to be in a low state of drive. The training looks great! He just seems to be kinda sloughing through ... or is it me? I really want to see him binging a little more ... of course it could be an off day or he could be tired or a myriad of other things. Are you doing any kind of drive building with him?


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Brian, great observation, yes he is not bringing as much to this session. He was tired as we did bitework that morning but.... I could make excuses for him all day.. He should have brought more. I do run in to this more than I like. I think it has to do with 2 things:
- the others not being there
- being in the building where it is always work time
I could have brought the whip out to really build him up but honestly I am getting a little tired of working my ass off to bring him into a proper drive. When does he start doing it on his own? I always keep things fun. I never apply too much pressure. I am carefully with how I play tug so its comfortable and enjoyable for him. 
Any advise to get over this hump is very welcome.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Patty Beck said:


> Brian, great observation, yes he is not bringing as much to this session. He was tired as we did bitework that morning but.... I could make excuses for him all day.. He should have brought more. I do run in to this more than I like. I think it has to do with 2 things:
> - the others not being there
> - being in the building where it is always work time
> I could have brought the whip out to really build him up but honestly I am getting a little tired of working my ass off to bring him into a proper drive. When does he start doing it on his own? I always keep things fun. I never apply too much pressure. I am carefully with how I play tug so its comfortable and enjoyable for him.
> Any advise to get over this hump is very welcome.




Firstly I want to point out that I see nothing wrong with the dog OR the training other than a lack of drive. I will equate that quickly to the nature of something for you becoming a mundane task that you just kinda do on autopilot without putting any of yourself in to. Now if that dynamic changes to all the sudden you are being challenged a bit then you all the sudden begin to stiffen your back a bit to meet that challenge and the entire energy changes. Im certain you relate to that Patty? Bear with my pitiful attempts to be instructive by using poor examples but its early LOL. Lets take that line of thinking and introduce that into the world between you and your boy!! Challenge him mentally and BAMMMM shit changes all kinda stuff starts happening ... I train bite dogs with the mentality of the dog just needs to engage so we dont so much use stimulus (whips, rattles etc) to get the dog to engage. We try to get into the dogs head to manipulate him at a different level. Your dog looks to have adapted to a lower drive level and remember they are masters of mnipulation and adaptation thats why we choose them. That adaptation can be GREAT and or it can be the pits. 

my spiel is ultimately pointing to this quote " I always keep things fun. I never apply too much pressure. I am carefully with how I play tug so its comfortable and enjoyable for him." 
what that quote is saying is really this "I always make it easy for him because I dont want to do anything wrong that can mess him up"....the irony is you are messing up doing that because you are not challenging him LOL ....virtually every person does it including myself. That dog needs to be under some pressure and be challenged to bring him out. Id maybe seperate him away from his group at home if thats doable and not give much time to loaf around and do his own thing. When he does come out its bidness and lets get something done. I think you will see a different dog :razz:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

The weather is rainy and nasty but if it clears I will make a video of a drive building send out we do that I think will help your boys intensity.


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Thank you Brian! I have spent so much time being careful with ICE so he doesn't shut down again but I think you are right it is time to step up to the plate.


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> The weather is rainy and nasty but if it clears I will make a video of a drive building send out we do that I think will help your boys intensity.


Excellent! Thank you!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "my spiel is ultimately pointing to this quote " I always keep things fun. I never apply too much pressure. I am carefully with how I play tug so its comfortable and enjoyable for him." 
what that quote is saying is really this "I always make it easy for him because I dont want to do anything wrong that can mess him up"....the irony is you are messing up doing that because you are not challenging him LOL ....virtually every person does it including myself. That dog needs to be under some pressure and be challenged to bring him out. Id maybe seperate him away from his group at home if thats doable and not give much time to loaf around and do his own thing. When he does come out its bidness and lets get something done. I think you will see a different dog "

this is EXACTLY what i as getting at in my "when do you get serious" thread !
- it was never intended to discuss the values of markers
- i prob started out with a bad example (MWD) and that might have made people think i was only talking about that type of training
- as Brian pointed out 'serious' should mean challenging and raising the bar and is not reserved for "special" types of dogs or specialised training


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Patty Beck said:


> Thank you Brian! I have spent so much time being careful with ICE so he doesn't shut down again but I think you are right it is time to step up to the plate.



One of the best things I have found to change the dynamic between a dog and myself as trainer is to put the dog in a position that the majority of time he is spending with me is in the work and then back up. So this kind of alignment in the brain happens which brings more clarity.

When our dogs (some more than others) are allowed to just kind of do their own thing and make most of their own choices you become less valid to them and your value is decreased. Hopefully makes sense!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Here is how I would "mend" this, although tbh I can't see anything broken. The dog is clearly bored of this game. Does he like just straight up simple retrieves? If so do this:

Ask for behavior (eg. sit)/dog sits/game of tug.
Chuck some easy retrieves..... like maybe 3-5
Ask for a behavior (sit)/dog sits/game of tug.
Blah Blah, rinse and repeat till the dog anticipates the easy retrieve.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

This guy has an interesting take on it, I think, I am finding it hard to get through all the woo:

https://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/why-we-push/


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> This guy has an interesting take on it, I think, I am finding it hard to get through all the woo:
> 
> https://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/why-we-push/



boy the woo is a bit much too


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> This guy has an interesting take on it, I think, I am finding it hard to get through all the woo:
> 
> https://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/why-we-push/


Reminds me of a quote:

Why make anything simple and efficient 
When it can be complex and wonderful.

This guy is not only complex and wonderful but an awful lot of who-shot-John.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I think I got bored of the exercise. What is woo and who-shot- John?

Anyway, I agree with Matt's assessment on what's up here. There's really nothing going on that is in dire need of fixing. This dog is a pet, not a patrol dog, or dog that is going to be tasked with any real job of sort. Certainly, if you do the same tasks over and over undoubtedly you will shut a dog like this down. Force it and you get a nice mess to deal with an a dog that avoids you like the plague. 

Patty was pretty clear about what she went through with this dog. IMO its pretty forward for people to infer a real understanding of how to "fix" a situation that probably isn't all that well understood to begin with. I mean she just joined the forum and we've seen two videos up until that point?

Patty, as I said to you in my first post I applaud you for being able to bring this together as well as you have. I am familiar with your situation as I did the same thing to a dog I owned. It was well intended, not forced but it resulted in a similar outcome. 

Someone else took a look at the dog and said the dog had figured me out and the solution was to make this dog do what I asked of it no matter what. To illustrate the point, the trainer took the leash, left it on a back tie, then she told it to sit and when the dog failed to comply she strung the dog out and choked her until her tongue turned purple. The dog sat not out of compliance but because of the way she was strung up eventually her rear slumped into a sit.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Someone else took a look at the dog and said the dog had figured me out and the solution was to make this dog do what I asked of it no matter what. To illustrate the point, the trainer took the leash, left it on a back tie, then she told it to sit and when the dog failed to comply she strung the dog out and choked her until her tongue turned purple. The dog sat not out of compliance but because of the way she was strung up eventually her rear slumped into a sit.


This is the reason I am here to try to help others for free and I get paid very well to work with these dogs... I am going to address this issue in an upcoming video with the hope it helps prevent this from happening in the future at least for those that pay attention. Sadly its all to common.


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

I appreciate all the advise received. I know that he doesn't have a major issues and I apologize if I implied that he has major issues. I was just trying to explain where we have been and where we are now at in our training. The struggles we have for competing in a trial without the toy are real. I am trying to work through it. Your right he is not a true working dog and he is very much a pet but I do go above and beyond to keep him active physically and mentally. I also do want to get to the point where he can trial with the same attitude as he trains. 
Again I truly appreciate all of the advise and ideas.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Patty Beck said:


> I appreciate all the advise received. I know that he doesn't have a major issues and I apologize if I implied that he has major issues. I was just trying to explain where we have been and where we are now at in our training. The struggles we have for competing in a trial without the toy are real. I am trying to work through it. Your right he is not a true working dog and he is very much a pet but I do go above and beyond to keep him active physically and mentally. I also do want to get to the point where he can trial with the same attitude as he trains.
> Again I truly appreciate all of the advise and ideas.



Patty what you are actually doing is demonstrating you are intelligent. You are willing to seek help and then actually act upon that which seems to work for you. Please don't apologize and there is nothing wrong with your boy other than a bit of tweaking here and there I assure you. Struggles are real and sometimes we get to a dead end on what to do or to try next and a lot of people at that point just move on to something not so challenging. Im glad you are hanging in there and staying the course. Just stay at it you are doing good.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Patty
there is absolutely nothing wrong with setting high goals for a pet

and sorry, but i'm missing the part about explaining his past ... and the shutting down part that you want to avoid happening again ??

not seeing a big prob with the toy being behind him but if the absence of a toy is a problem when competing you just need to do more work without it rather than worry about the placement
- i would even try keeping it in my left hand and let him see it...just don't use it; or use one in the other hand he can't see if he needs a tug reward
- or do the drill with only verbal and physical praise and then finish the drill and tug
- if a dog will only work for a toy it's being bribed...i'm sure you know that already but it's not a fatal problem 
- take a step back and let him know how much you appreciate HIM working for YOU. yeah, it's old school to get (uncomfortably) animated and crazy, but it worked for decades and is still being taught in the DOD. and that certainly doesn't mean it's only required for military working dog training


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> Patty what you are actually doing is demonstrating you are intelligent. You are willing to seek help and then actually act upon that which seems to work for you. Please don't apologize and there is nothing wrong with your boy other than a bit of tweaking here and there I assure you. Struggles are real and sometimes we get to a dead end on what to do or to try next and a lot of people at that point just move on to something not so challenging. Im glad you are hanging in there and staying the course. Just stay at it you are doing good.


Brian, thank you! We have come so far in the past few years and I am very proud of that. I still have much work to be done. LOL He is such a fun dog I enjoy so much with him but oh boy can he frustrate me sometimes... :razz:


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

rick smith said:


> Patty
> there is absolutely nothing wrong with setting high goals for a pet
> 
> and sorry, but i'm missing the part about explaining his past ... and the shutting down part that you want to avoid happening again ??
> ...


The back story on his shut down is in my intro. 
Here is where I struggle without the toy. I myself am unsure because his work without the toy present is very blah. So I am just not sure if or how much blah work to reward.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Patty
is this the backstory ?

"he totally shut down at just over a year old. I mean didn't want to work at all. I think, against my better judgment, I pushed him to hard too fast. He was ok at home, would play like a normal dog but if I asked for simple behaviors he would slick back his ears, hang his head and just stand there."


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## Patty Beck (Mar 9, 2011)

rick smith said:


> Patty
> is this the backstory ?
> 
> "he totally shut down at just over a year old. I mean didn't want to work at all. I think, against my better judgment, I pushed him to hard too fast. He was ok at home, would play like a normal dog but if I asked for simple behaviors he would slick back his ears, hang his head and just stand there."


Yes, that is it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Patty Beck said:


> Yes, that is it.



I have applied to much pressure in different ways to more than one dog and had disastrous results..and Id bet most people, if they were honest, would admit to the same thing. It sucks having to go back in the training especially with a dog that isnt especially strong. BUT its a great way to learn at the expense of the poor dog lol ...so dont feel like the lone stranger on that end of the leash LOL


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> This is the reason I am here to try to help others for free and I get paid very well to work with these dogs... I am going to address this issue in an upcoming video with the hope it helps prevent this from happening in the future at least for those that pay attention. Sadly its all to common.


A lot of things are all too common. That woman is lucky I didn't knock her ****ing head off. For anyone who has been around long enough to remember that story, they'll remember that this dog was my mastiff. What I did do after that is I took her home and I came to a conclusion, it's one we say here over and over. Work the dog before you. I wasn't, I was trying to work this dog like a GSD. 

I didn't understand drives then. I didn't understand that you can't just take any dog that's able bodied and make it do what you want out of sheer will. What I did come to understand is I had one impressive dog before me with a set of natural abilities I never let her explore. That led to an entirely new world (scent) and rediscovery of my love of the outdoors. When I stopped making this dog my muse and instead let her show me what she brought on her own I found that the possibilities are endless. 

Brian the truth is, if people want something bad enough they will do everything in their power to get it, including lie to themselves and allow unnecessary harm to be inflicted upon our family members or even with our canine friends. Obviously, I'm not just talking about this in the context of dog training. 

My comments about Ice's past and Betty's work with him were not directed at them. It was directed at the fact that people weren't mindful that this wasn't your every day dog willing to work for a toy. Some dogs you can work like a light switch and some, if allowed to work in their element, will work endlessly and do absolutely amazing things. Knowing when you have one and not the other is a start.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

"I didn't understand that you can't just take any dog that's able bodied and make it do what you want out of sheer will. What I did come to understand is I had one impressive dog before me with a set of natural abilities I never let her explore. That led to an entirely new world (scent) and rediscovery of my love of the outdoors. When I ... let her show me what she brought on her own I found that the possibilities are endless. ... Some dogs you can work like a light switch and some, if allowed to work in their element, will work endlessly and do absolutely amazing things. Knowing when you have one and not the other is a start."

Useful change in perspective.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> "I didn't understand that you can't just take any dog that's able bodied and make it do what you want out of sheer will. What I did come to understand is I had one impressive dog before me with a set of natural abilities I never let her explore. That led to an entirely new world (scent) and rediscovery of my love of the outdoors. When I ... let her show me what she brought on her own I found that the possibilities are endless. ... Some dogs you can work like a light switch and some, if allowed to work in their element, will work endlessly and do absolutely amazing things. Knowing when you have one and not the other is a start."
> 
> Useful change in perspective.



Thats a great perspective Meg...my wife is always reminding me to stay with the dog that is in front of me and focus on what it brings to the table, Im getting better over time LOL


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> "I didn't understand that you can't just take any dog that's able bodied and make it do what you want out of sheer will. What I did come to understand is I had one impressive dog before me with a set of natural abilities I never let her explore. That led to an entirely new world (scent) and rediscovery of my love of the outdoors. When I ... let her show me what she brought on her own I found that the possibilities are endless. ... Some dogs you can work like a light switch and some, if allowed to work in their element, will work endlessly and do absolutely amazing things. Knowing when you have one and not the other is a start."
> 
> Useful change in perspective.


I think that should be made into a "sticky" about what exactly that saying means. Well, that's what meaning it has for me.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Thats a great perspective Meg...my wife is always reminding me to stay with the dog that is in front of me and focus on what it brings to the table, Im getting better over time LOL


LOL Brian, I'm thinking you're probably overpaid if your wife needs to remind you of this guiding principle in working with dogs. :-$


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> LOL Brian, I'm thinking you're probably overpaid if your wife needs to remind you of this guiding principle in working with dogs. :-$



LOL she loves the dogs as much or more than I do .... its kinda the same thing as when mom or grandma say "stand up straight and stop slumping your back".... Im still trying to stop slumping over LOL We all need a lil reminder from time to time. Lord knows I do!


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