# Dominance



## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

http://rogerabrantes.wordpress.com/2011/12/11/dominance-making-sense-of-the-nonsense/

I was just reading an old thread in relation to the above link but it didn't seem to get much air time. I really think it is worth people taking a closer look at what is being said here.

Roger Abrantes has managed to clarify the dominance issue in a way that makes sense and fits into the picture of animal behaviour generally and not just in relation to dogs. It made more sense to me after I read "On aggression" by Konrad Lorenz.

In a nutshell it goes like this. All life starts off asocial - in competition with it's own and other species. Competition triggers aggression. Aggression is a drive aimed at eliminating competition. Some animals have evolved the ability to be social and accept proximity to others. Ranging from flocking and herding animals to highly social, co-operative species like wolves and humans. In order to be social species need to overcome aggression.

Dominance/submission are social aggression and social fear respectively. The aim is not to eliminate the competition as with true aggression but for the individuals to settle disputes over resources without harm. It is the art of compromise which is the essence of being social.

It is now established that wolves live in family units. They are naturally in a position of leadership because the rest of the pack are generally their offspring. The position isn't gained or maintained through aggression or tyrany. Disputes over resources are resloved throught ritualised behaviours (dominance/submission), the aim of which is to AVOID conflict and maintain a stable, safe strategy for life.

The reason I felt the need to bring this up now is that the dominance theory in dog training that suggests you need to show your dog who's boss by confronting him and maintaining the Alpha slot just wont go away.

Yet another one of our handlers is in hospital licking his wounds after putting this outdated concept into practice. This is the second in a very short space of time and I believe is a result of bad advice from old school handlers. ](*,)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Never pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight. ;-)


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

It helps to be smarter than the dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't know what the title is in other countries, or if it is shown in the UK, but the TV show filmed @ VLK is now being carried and is called "Alpha Dogs" here in Japan
- 30 min long
- seen four episodes
- two had handler bites


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Guy,

I'm glad you brought this subject up again. I'm not too sure about one of your last paragraphs:


_The reason I felt the need to bring this up now is that the dominance theory in dog training that suggests you need to show your dog who's boss by confronting him and maintaining the Alpha slot just wont go away._

I have in my possession, and read Konrad Lorenz and all the books of his scholar Eberhard Trumler.

The theory is correct in my mind and will never change, even though so-called behavourists try to tell us different in order to be able to publish new books and new websites and NEW ideas.

I think the problem is in the practice. We know how the canine should react but this isn't Eberhard Trumler's Research Station in Germany. This is modern life canine inter-action between genetically (mentally) healthy canines and (mentally) unhealthy canines, bred purely for sale without consequence of the inheritance each litter bears.

It is a subject that interests me intensely and I would welcome posts in the same vein.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I would like to add - it is merely transferring what we have read Lorenz/Trumler to the practice.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Never pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight. ;-)


If I have done my job properly then that should be all of our dogs at work! I don't mind handlers learning this the hard way but it is often the dog that ends up taking the blame.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Guy,
> 
> I'm glad you brought this subject up again. I'm not too sure about one of your last paragraphs:
> 
> ...


The bit that wont go away is that you gain the 'top spot' by threats and intimidation. This seems to make some people think if they shout and scream loud enough the dog will just fall in line and do as it is told.

My interpretation is that leadership is a key element to harmony in the human/dog 'pack'. If you set out the rules, enforce them consistently and take responsibility for the things your dog needs to do then you are on the right path.

I like the expression that dominance/submission are behaviour traits, not personality traits.

So if my dog were to guard his food from me, rather than assume that I have a 'dominance' problem requiring me to throw my weight around, I would see it as a behaviour specific to food. I would heed his warning and try and assess why my dog would see me as a threat near his food. I would then set about changing his perception of me near his food by adding extra tasty morsels etc.

There is so much debate going on about dominance/pack structure and whether either exist or are relevant to dogs that it is difficult to talk about the subject without long explanations about what you mean by any given phrase. I'm interested to see how other people see the whole dominance/pack structure issue.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Everybody hates a boss that is a prick. If you are not fair with strong dogs you get bit.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

rick smith said:


> don't know what the title is in other countries, or if it is shown in the UK, but the TV show filmed @ VLK is now being carried and is called "Alpha Dogs" here in Japan
> - 30 min long
> - seen four episodes
> - two had handler bites


My dog from VLK bit me 4 times the first week I had the bitch, until we straightened out our relationship. Never had to keep asserting dominance or anything like that. All the green dogs have very little OB training, and all of that is compulsion, before they are on their handler. All they really know is detection and beginning bitework.

The funny thing is, all the detection training is very positive, and the detection work is top notch. It doesn't make sense to me that they rush, almost skip, obedience until the dog has a handler.

I spent every morning, every lunch break, and every evening marker training OB with Fama until she was solid. The trainers were amazed. They just do what they know, and most are old school military handlers.

David Winners


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

I looked VLk up online. They look like quite a big outfit. I will see if I can find the tv programmes somewhere to watch.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Guy Williams said:


> I looked VLk up online. They look like quite a big outfit. I will see if I can find the tv programmes somewhere to watch.


I still haven't seen the show, and I'm apparently in an episode lol. : know my pickup truck is anyways 

David Winners


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

the did not do anyone any favors really, that was on it....
(if being viewed by actual working dog people.)

it was fairly unimpressive, dumbed down, and performances were not what I was expecting to see honestly. but it was entertaining if you like semi-scripted reality shows and conflicting personality type stuff.

my favorite one was where,as a bite work demo, they sent the dog on a guy that was up high on some stuff and the dog ran up and lept to possible death or injury, ran up there, rocketed right into some visqueen and lept off whatever it was, about 10-12 feet high. right off the edge, never even really looking at the decoy, blew right past him.

somehow that was turned into a positive thing after some spin..


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Guy Williams said:


> The bit that wont go away is that you gain the 'top spot' by threats and intimidation. This seems to make some people think if they shout and scream loud enough the dog will just fall in line and do as it is told.
> 
> My interpretation is that leadership is a key element to harmony in the human/dog 'pack'. If you set out the rules, enforce them consistently and take responsibility for the things your dog needs to do then you are on the right path.
> 
> ...


I have never had a dog that has had any issues with my putting my hand is his feeding bowl. I think that if you expect some aggression you might get it. Sometimes I have just put my hand in the bowl and I never encountered resistance.

As for trialling, even if the dog behaves for the handler at home - the various exercises at first not known to the handler, can make him unsure and to be sure the dog will pick up on this and react. Nervousness of not doing it right on the part of the handler can cause him to shout / sceam. Of course it is contraproductive but it happens even to the dog/handler situation at home that poses no problems.

In trialling, the dog is faced with many more incidents than at home - mostly in the kennel.

However, if the dog has been correctly handled, these issues are not so difficult.

Where I see the problem is in Protection. This is an area that one cannot reproduce in every day life.

The dog we thought we had under control becomes literallly a crazy monster and truly I find that dominance has to be redefined


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

as far as not doing anyone any favors on the VLK show ...
--- i'm sure their (female) staff member was happy getting a 7th place out of a hundred or so "olympics" competitors despite being tagged by her dog when she tried to lift it off a bite 

being a "reality" show i set the bar pretty low ... but still have been less than impressed from the few episodes i've watched, even from an entertainment POV

people who are close to them seem to be staying loyal tho

not much that would contribute to this thread; sorry i mentioned the title being "Alpha Dogs", but since it's on TV all over the world, using that slang will probably help perpetuate it even longer ](*,) 
(but Japan often changes the titles, so i don't even know if that title is being used in other countries)

like any dog show, the more you know about dogs the more you will see, good and bad, that non dog people will not


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I guess for me it was the photo they are using in the mags. A bunch of overweight, gangsta-type enforcer-looking dudes postering to look tough and way down at the bottom almost hidden amongst the legs is one little mal. So it looks like the show really isn't about the dogs but the humans and the dogs are just a vehicle to make the viewer tune in. Wonder how much VLK is making of this marketing gimmick? I don't think Alpha Dogs refers to the canines but the macho men pictured. Sorta false advertising IMO


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

David Winners said:


> My dog from VLK bit me 4 times the first week I had the bitch, until we straightened out our relationship.
> 
> 
> David Winners


For me that was three times too much but I can sympatise


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Never pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight. ;-)


Sometimes one has to, in those cases it is important to manage the environment for success or handler ends up in ER and dog learns exactly what to do next time


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

rick smith said:


> as far as not doing anyone any favors on the VLK show ...
> --- i'm sure their (female) staff member was happy getting a 7th place out of a hundred or so "olympics" competitors despite being tagged by her dog when she tried to lift it off a bite
> 
> being a "reality" show i set the bar pretty low ... but still have been less than impressed from the few episodes i've watched, even from an entertainment POV
> ...


More funny to me was when she had to carry her "poor tired Mal over the finish line"  but hey she is a girl!


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> For me that was three times too much but I can sympatise


Oh for me too! They have a strict no corrections rule for your first week with the dog. The first one was a nip, trying to punk me, and the bites kept escalating. The last one, she came after me with some intent when I opened her crate when she was very excited from hearing other dogs working. That was way too much for me to ignore.

She had been successful with these tactics in the past, having been removed from several handlers before I got her. 

She's a much different dog now.

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Having watched the shooting process of the show, it is far from reality. There are producers and such. It was a PITA. 

The fat guys with attitudes are all good guys IMHO. They care, about the dogs and people, and do their best. I'm sure that many would do things differently than they do, but the truth is that those dogs have been proven all over the world in real life situations. Sure, there are better dog teams than Fama and I, but we got the job done, never lost a soldier walking behind us, and we both made it back with 10 fingers and toes. We were very productive.

Sometimes you only have to be good enough.

It's important for me to say that I'm not offended by any negative comments towards VLK at all. I know they could do some things better. I have made negative comments to most of those guys myself, so don't hold back on my account  (not that anyone would lol)

David Winners


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

David Winners said:


> but the truth is that those dogs have been proven all over the world in real life situations. Sure, there are better dog teams than Fama and I, but we got the job done, never lost a soldier walking behind us, and we both made it back with 10 fingers and toes. We were very productive.
> 
> Sometimes you only have to be good enough.
> 
> ...


And that boys and girls is what it's all about...=D>


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

David Winners said:


> Having watched the shooting process of the show, it is far from reality. There are producers and such. It was a PITA.
> 
> The fat guys with attitudes are all good guys IMHO. They care, about the dogs and people, and do their best. I'm sure that many would do things differently than they do, but the truth is that those dogs have been proven all over the world in real life situations. Sure, there are better dog teams than Fama and I, but we got the job done, never lost a soldier walking behind us, and we both made it back with 10 fingers and toes. We were very productive.
> 
> ...


I'm sure they all have their sterling qualities but dislike the marketing image and phoniness of it all for the sake or making a buck and ratings.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> Having watched the shooting process of the show, it is far from reality. There are producers and such. It was a PITA.
> 
> The fat guys with attitudes are all good guys IMHO. They care, about the dogs and people, and do their best. I'm sure that many would do things differently than they do, but the truth is that those dogs have been proven all over the world in real life situations. Sure, there are better dog teams than Fama and I, but we got the job done, never lost a soldier walking behind us, and we both made it back with 10 fingers and toes. We were very productive.
> 
> ...


I understand 100% my comments were about the show, not the people or the quality of dogs at VLK.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I understand. If it's anything like the rest of the reality shoes, I can only imagine how it looks. They always play up drama and stupid shit. I've been trying to find some place to download it or watch online, but apparently it's not popular enough to pirate LOL.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> I understand. If it's anything like the rest of the reality shoes, I can only imagine how it looks. They always play up drama and stupid shit. I've been trying to find some place to download it or watch online, but apparently it's not popular enough to pirate LOL.


http://www.snagfilms.com/welcome?redirect=/films/title/alpha_dogs_growing_pains

just sign up or in, can use FB sign in, they have 8 episodes on there.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> http://www.snagfilms.com/welcome?redirect=/films/title/alpha_dogs_growing_pains
> 
> just sign up or in, can use FB sign in, they have 8 episodes on there.


Thanks Joby!

David Winners


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have never had a dog that has had any issues with my putting my hand is his feeding bowl. I think that if you expect some aggression you might get it. Sometimes I have just put my hand in the bowl and I never encountered resistance.
> 
> As for trialling, even if the dog behaves for the handler at home - the various exercises at first not known to the handler, can make him unsure and to be sure the dog will pick up on this and react. Nervousness of not doing it right on the part of the handler can cause him to shout / sceam. Of course it is contraproductive but it happens even to the dog/handler situation at home that poses no problems.
> 
> ...


I've never had an issue with any of the pups I've raised or adults i've had for work around food bowls. I did have a rescue shepherd many moons ago who would food guard. It was very obvious that confronting this dog was not an option. I didn't have the balls to try and show him who was boss in the traditional sense and looking back i'm glad I didn't. That's when I started reading about counter conditioning and such like and we resolved the issue in a non confrontational manner. That did start me thinking that if I was boss in every other area of life, why would he act like that around food? It didn't make any sense. I was either top dog or I wasn't? Or so the theory seemed to go.

I've since managed numerous dogs of varying degrees of seriousness and never had any dog - handler aggression issues. I definitely think there is a link between the manner you handle your dogs and the liklihood they will show aggression to the hand that feeds.:-k


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> http://www.snagfilms.com/welcome?redirect=/films/title/alpha_dogs_growing_pains
> 
> just sign up or in, can use FB sign in, they have 8 episodes on there.


 Thanks for posting link. I got all excited but its not available in uk. Have to make do with the short clips on their site.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think to try and explain every behavior as somehow being related to rank order, is about as stupid as a dog trainer gets. 

Negating that idea that Relationship effects training at all.... Is a close second. 

I think you cannot color this one black and white. I also don't think you can write the answer to this facet of training in a book. This is one of those things that takes experience. Not saying I got it, But saying I know that dogs are in fact capable of complex social structures and I know this effects training. But I also know that good training effects these social structures....and knowing when which can only be taught by getting a dog and screwing it up a little or maybe a lot


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Guy Williams said:


> The bit that wont go away is that you gain the 'top spot' by threats and intimidation. This seems to make some people think if they shout and scream loud enough the dog will just fall in line and do as it is told.
> 
> My interpretation is that leadership is a key element to harmony in the human/dog 'pack'. If you set out the rules, enforce them consistently and take responsibility for the things your dog needs to do then you are on the right path.
> 
> ...



First, I think Dominant is a poor word to use when talking about structure of packs. Because Dominant in my mind would be the dog others would follow, and what most people point out as being "dominant" behavior, looks to me like nothing I would expect from a dog that wants other dogs to follow him. 

Next, We can take behavior by itself though, are there social implications to training, hell yes there are. Here's one I find fascinating. Dog trainers, professional or very serious enthusiasts, will put e-collars on their dogs when they go for a walk. Because what if a deer comes out? Now the dog running after the deer is completely natural. When their handlers says "come" "down" or "stop" or something like that, most dog trainers have absolutley no faith in their own ability to stop the dog with out a collar. When I pointed out a long time ago, that I believed this was a relationship problem. I was confronted with arguments like....My dog has to much drive, or my dog has too much this...or the instinct is too strong. 

I get how the handler gets to these reasons in their head. especially if their has been no training involved. But the statement I was getting is there is no training, the dog will bolt no matter what. They were saying this as if it was not even the dogs fault. I don't believe it to be fact. 

First, I have seen dog on IPO field with more desire and drive to go work... it easily matches the desire to chase wildlife. And I have seen those IPO dogs show restraint. 

But back to pack theory. Many I believe green trainers would chalk this up to the dog is dominate and wants to run the show. We know this is not true. But I think it's not entirely false either. I don't think the dog gives too shits about the whole show. But I do think the dog does not have boundries in this area....my argument in the last session about this was the E-collar was actually evidence that the dog does not have any respect for the handlers wishes. Hence making the E-collar a crutch for not having a sufficient boundry. So is their dominance...no. I don't think this has anything to do with rank. But I believe this problem root is not in uncontrollable instinct but lack of boundries. 

And I may have come across as arrogant about it in the past. Which I regret. Because looking back, I stumbled upon this by accident. 

I take my dogs on lots of off leash walks. And I did not make this training up, someone showed me it. So, I cannot claim it as my own either. But I noticed something. I noticed that all my dogs when I call them on a walk will race to come to me, no matter what they are doing. They could be in full on play with another dog. They could be chasing wildlife, but they will stop and come. And I never used any equipment to get it. What I did do, and I think it's important that puppies learn this and that is I will leave them. It's extremely hard for a lot of people to try to do this. But when they are pups, and we go for a walk... I always make the dog look for me. If they go right, I go left. They soon start paying attention to me. stopping and waiting for me. In fact my dogs have started to chase something and stopped on their own to see where I am and where I am going. And this is based on pack stucture and but not dominace. First, I think pups have an instinct that over rides anything else, and that is the instinct to stay with the pack. Because the purpose of a pack is to aid in individual survival, abandonment for a pup means death. Being left alone, they will surely die. So, I play on that. And the day does come when the dog test the boundry, as they get older they start to feel more confident away from the pack. So, when they decide to do their own thing....I do my own thing and leave them. I may hide and watch...Or I might go back to the car. but I want them to feel insecure. Sometimes the dog mills about as if they haven't got a care in the world, but sooner or later it sinks in that I am gone. And then they start to get worried. I may let them relish in that for a minute but I make it so they can find me. Not so I find them. And then we have a wonderful reunion, they are not bad, they were just lost....and they learn very quickly to stay with me. Now I tried to teach this to someone else, who just could not get over their fear of letting the dog get to far ahead, they constantly called the dog, and followed them....and This is where I got what was happening. I had not realized the pack implication till this moment. I watched as if the roles had reversed. Here is the owner following the dog. And in the dog's mind, the owner is staying with the pack. The dog had no responsabilty to no where the pack was, because the handler had taken all the responsability of knowing where the pack was. And the dog was leading the walk. Then something even more interesting happened. The dog would walk as if they were doing their own thing, as I do i my walks. when the handler caught up the dog trotted further away. then the handler got pissed.... and started screaming, running and chasing the dog. I could see the dog at first get excited at what a fun game they were playing. and then it turned into concern by the dog....now the handler is in a pickle if they stop chasing the dog, the dog learns just keep running away from them works. if the handler does anything besides catch the dog and punish it, the dog's behavior had ended favorably for them. and thus the behavior strengthened till the point the dog had to be walked on a leash for the remaineder of it's life. The owner....dog is too dominant to do what I do. Horse shit, the handlers fear directed the training, and their relationship has a huge hole in it. And if this type thing occurs in other areas of the dogs life, holy moly...the dog generalizes, becomes a brat, and the handler chalks it all up to dominace. When really it's just a shitty relationship. Now on the other hand, if I keep creating similar boundries in other areas of my dogs life, my dog learns by-proxy...that I am indeed the director of the show. And it's in the best interest of the dog to just listen to me. My dog understands that letting it's lower instincts make it's decisions for them is not a good plan. And even further it appears this makes the dog fall more in love with me. Because after all I am playing on the strongest of instincts....survival, which the pack provides.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

James Downey said:


> But back to pack theory. Many I believe green trainers would chalk this up to the dog is dominate and wants to run the show. We know this is not true. But I think it's not entirely false either. I don't think the dog gives too shits about the whole show. But I do think the dog does not have boundries in this area....my argument in the last session about this was the E-collar was actually evidence that the dog does not have any respect for the handlers wishes. Hence making the E-collar a crutch for not having a sufficient boundry. So is their dominance...no. I don't think this has anything to do with rank. But I believe this problem root is not in uncontrollable instinct but lack of boundries.


Good response. I think you've hit the nail on the head in that it is about boundaries. But you have to take responsibility for making the rules, teaching the rules and mainaining them. Far too many people I come across don't even know what their rules are in any given situation, therefore they can't possibly be teaching the dog the rules consistently and will therefore be inconsistent in their approach. Poor leadership whether you're human or a dog!

It's not something i've ever formally made an effort to do but that's exactly what I do when out walking with my beasts.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Guy Williams said:


> It's not something i've ever formally made an effort to do but that's exactly what I do when out walking with my beasts.



And the reason I think Guy, is because it's innate. I do believe their is such a thing as Alpha types, so to speak. Natural leaders, that sort of thing. And that's why you never had to formally think about it, because I don't think that people or dogs for that matter, that have Dominate Personalities think about it. They just are. A King who has tell everyone he's King, is no King.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James, your off lead walking with the dogs is something I've preached for years. I believe that a puppy younger then 12 wks very much wants to be with the litter/pack/leader/etc.
As a kid I did this probably unconsciously. I always had a dog with me and leashes were for going to the vets. With a young puppy tagging along is was a matter of keeping up or fall behind. 
I realized this later on in my dog training and took advantage of it. I've never had a dog that didn't come immediately when called. I don't know that I actually "trained" the behavior as much as just taking advantage of the situation. That include OB competition, Schutzhund, hunt terriers and pets. Formal recalls were just a matter of putting the finishing touches on a behavior that was always there.


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