# my dog lied



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I was working Greta on cadaver, I either treat with a ball or food. She is so stick obsessed, I decided to try that as a reward. She saw I picked it up, when I gave her check command, she ran out and sat. That is her indication, but there was no sample there. I said no, get to work, she ran out farther, sat and barked. Liar! LOL.
So why the false alert? Because she saw the stick, or the change in reward?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Something in the game changed and she was throwing a behavior to try to get her toy. It didn't work. 

I honestly think the female dogs throw more of these behaviors to try to trick the handlers, I really do.

Now you are going to have to put in your treaining log and show what you did to fix it.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Now you are going to have to put in your treaining log and show what you did to fix it.


A girl after my own heart. From that entry on, the dog will never be perfect. Which of course confirms my statement: I've yet to see the perfect dog. 

DFrost


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

What changed in the senario other than the reward? Did you keep the stick in the same place and deliver it for reward in the same manner? Do you think your mannerisms or behavior may have changed because you were anxious to reward her to see if she would then hunt harder because she is "stick crazy"?


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Most importantly--when she found the real source, did you reward quickly and emphatically?

When Remus was just entering his butthead teenager stage (I cant say he is entirely out of it LOL), he tried a few 'false alerts'. He and I both knew they were false, but he had to try anyway, just to see what happened. I think it is a good thing--they are experimenting with exactly what gets them their reward and they learn it is only being at the source.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think my most interesting false indication (Grim is actually pretty good at not throwing them) was when I made him rework an area where I was convinced the source was because I had seen some body language in the area.

Had I left him alone he was actually heading to source but I thought he was playing in the stream.

He walked to the tree, sat, and just STARED at me like I was an idiot. At that point I told the person who had set the problem - "that is NOT it, he is pissed". That is when he said "shut up and let your damn dog work - you pulled him off"

I learned a lot from that one.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

John-Ashley Hill said:


> What changed in the senario other than the reward? Did you keep the stick in the same place and deliver it for reward in the same manner? Do you think your mannerisms or behavior may have changed because you were anxious to reward her to see if she would then hunt harder because she is "stick crazy"?


If something changed, other than the introduction of target odor, and the dog responded, it's a training problem pure and simple. All those thing mentioned should have been proofed during the training. Once again, it's why you train blind. When you train blind, everything other than target odor is a distractor.

DFrost


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

John-Ashley Hill said:


> What changed in the senario other than the reward? Did you keep the stick in the same place and deliver it for reward in the same manner? Do you think your mannerisms or behavior may have changed because you were anxious to reward her to see if she would then hunt harder because she is "stick crazy"?


If I am reading correctly, it sounded like everything changed. On the spur of the moment handler decided to pick up a stick during a scenario. It is not normally the dogs reward, just seeing what would happen. 
If I remember correctly, this is a beginner dog, so changing things on the spur of the moment is probably not the best idea.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

The only thing that changed was the reward, and the fact that she saw me with the stick before I gave her check command. I did not reward her for false alerting, and she did continue on to make the finds, and totally loved getting her stick. It seemed like she just tried a sit for the reward rather than working.
We do alot of blind searching, but had no one available that day to set out the samples. Normally nothing distracts her when she is working. She is also obsessed with birds, but will pay no mind to them when working.
I also play fetch with her and a stick, but never have used it as a reward. She is a year old, so yes she is a begginer. It doesn't matter to me what I use, I just thought since a stick is her favorite, she may work well for it. She was doing fine before. Guess I should leave well enough alone.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I also play fetch with her and a stick, but never have used it as a reward."

!!!BINGO!! That completely changed the game!


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

C'mon people, lying is a human failing. Dogs guess, especially when they are inexperienced. That's how they learn. Picking up what the dog considers a reward sent a signal to the dog that the handler wanted a specific behavior and it guessed. The quicker handlers stop humanizing their dogs and work/train them in the canine world, the quicker the "guesses" diminish. 

And, yes, blinds are the best way to determine what hidden signals the handler has developed to trigger a dog's behavior.

False alerts do occur, but they are normally the result of previous experience the handler had no clue he/she was training OR the dog comes across a scent mixture that is either new or close to previously rewarded for. The more experience the handler has with their dog, the easier they should be able to read a "guess" versus a solid alert. 

Realize that especially in HRD the dog has to make a guestimate on real searches. We introduce the dog to as many scent chemical pictures of human remains that we can. Science has shown us that over 400 chemical compounds come off a human corpse during it's decomposition cycle. We as handlers (and the scientists) really have no clue currently what chemical mixes the dog recognizes as uniquely human remains scent. Then we have to deal with our own (as handlers) variations in timing and the environment as to what we marked as the correct odor. I've observed handlers with slow reward timing where the dog's nose has now left the scent source and is checking something else out, but the handler struggled getting their reward out of their pocket then fired it at the dog such that the handler marked the "wrong scent." 
Handlers have routines they create without knowing. We, as handlers, have to be ever vigilant that we don't create cues. I recently spotted that my younger dog was picking up when I bend over as a signal that there's a scent source there. This was when I was trying to get the younger dog to help me spot a tooth that another dog had flung away in it's over zealous targeting. So, I moved back and forced the dog to work through the problem without my body language being an issue. Secondly, I started working the dog through problems where I knew I was in a negative area and began bending over like I was looking for sources such that I could correct the dog's mistaken "guess".

Dogs don't lie. They (like kids in a school class) do sometimes guess when they come across something that hasn't been covered by the trainer. Our goal is to minimize their need to guess to please us. Part of this is taking one of those placentas and letting it go through out a full decomposition cycle. Some handlers store various stages of decomposition to expose the dog to routinely and this provides windows of scent for the dog, but even then the dog is forced to interpolate on real searches as to whether this is a chemical mixture that the handler has rewarded for.
This is also why when we proof off of animal remains that we must also allow them sometimes to go through their complete decomposition cycle to tell the dog to ignore that unique scent mixture.

Narcotics training is usually 4-5 drugs that the area usually sees. The chemical variation in those drugs is severely limited compared to what we ask the HRD dog to work. What humans do to mask those 4-5 chemicals is limited only by their imagination which presents the challenge to narc dogs.

There have been times where I've had my dog alert on searches for L.E. where I've told L.E. that I don't like the way the dog is reacting and I think there is another reason for the behavior. I've called the area clear even when the dog alerted and had to sweat through while L.E. checked anyway. So far the dog and I as a team have been correct. My log reflected the dog had a false alert. My frustration is trying to determine what caused it because THE DOG DIDN"T LIE. I do have checks in my working ritual that I expect with the dog such that if it’s not all as expected then we have to work it again till I either call it a false alert (for what ever reason) or the dog has located the scent source.


Jim Delbridge


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Ok, so Greta didn't lie. She was confused, thinking maybe we were going to play fetch and not actually work. That makes sense, because she never began searching for the scent. She did run out a little bit, then sat. She was not in scent at all. Was not even looking for it. She wasn't guessing where the scemt was, but probably guessing what could get her stick thrown the fastest.

The reason I tried the stick as a reward... this has become her favorite thing ever. When we train, I try to make it complete fun. She had no trouble before. I will just leave it as it was then. 

Now I need to proof her from someone throwing a stick while she works lol. In tracking nothing takes her mind from it. I have not tried that during cadaver, but she can see her ball, if its dropped, she pays no mind until she finds the source. 

She also has had no trouble with all different stages of decomp. From fresh, to nasty, with maggots, to dried out, she does great. I have some real good femurs with lots of flesh and skin still attached. The teeth are harder for her to find, depending on where they are placed. Animal remains have not been a problem. Living out in the country, she has been around lots of dead critters, no reaction. Even a huge dead hog that scared me lol. In fact there is a dead vulture in one of the fields I like to train in. All thats left now are feathers and a few bones.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Other handlers have suffered through the "stick game" and have learned to stop playing stick with their search dog all together. The reason being that the dog can quickly self-reward on a search where sticks are present, so why do they need you the handler or the scent source......

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Self-rewarding and untold numbers of mouth injuries with sticks. I personally know 5 dogs who have pushed a stick through the palate in the back of their mouth. These are not dogs of people on the internet but dogs I have trained with flesh and blood.

Try the rubber hose. A lot of dogs love it.

Good description of the scent. On the Casey Anthony testimony, Arpad Vass testified about 40 of the 400 are volatile but of course the non volatiles and semi volatiles can still be smelled but wont disperse so much in the air. And then you figure how that parlays into licking the ground, tasting the water etc.

I think it was you who postulated on another forum that a problem with too much blood training is the volatility and large scent pool created vs. bone where the scent tends to linger closer to the ground?

I am looking for an article and you alluded to something in another post - the dog must have contunual exposure to the spectrum to maintain its nose somehow......was that you....... a friend was telling me about this but could not cite the article. In that article it was that dogs actually grow more scent receptors based on what they are asked to detect so repeated practice is necessary to keep the actual nose, which continuosly replenishes epithelial scent cells, primed for the proper receptors.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

The growing of nasal receptors every 3-4 months is cited in (I believe) the dutch work on scent discrimination. It follows that canines that live in an environment where there are more mice would grow more nasal receptors for mice than for rabbits and visa versa. Dog trainers that follow this try to focus the dog's work on what they expect to work on the most. So, someone like Adela that works only historic work is going to train only on old bone and teeth and should see the dog's sensitivity to this medium go up over time. 
Some dog handlers abuse this rule and convince themselves that if they train at least once every three months on a unique scent source that the dog will continue to be sensitive to it. I tend to think it's triggered more by food/scent association, the more the dog eats with the associated scent then the better it gets at that scent. That's why part of my puppys' initial training is placing teeth and little bones next to the crate about 15 minutes prior to each feeding as well as easy searches.

Oh, saw the thread on vehicle searches. I didn't want to start another debate, but I work vehicles off-lead. If possible, I want the dog working the vehicles without me walking around in front as the handler's movement can change the scent picture as well as we create air flow. I can do a directed search, but still do that off-lead and maintain pace regardless of dog's pausing to check scent.

Jim

P.S. - found the book, K9 Suspect Discrimination, by Schoon and Haak,


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim Delbridge said:


> The growing of nasal receptors every 3-4 months is cited in (I believe) the dutch work on scent discrimination. It follows that canines that live in an environment where there are more mice would grow more nasal receptors for mice than for rabbits and visa versa. Dog trainers that follow this try to focus the dog's work on what they expect to work on the most. So, someone like Adela that works only historic work is going to train only on old bone and teeth and should see the dog's sensitivity to this medium go up over time.
> Some dog handlers abuse this rule and convince themselves that if they train at least once every three months on a unique scent source that the dog will continue to be sensitive to it. I tend to think it's triggered more by food/scent association, the more the dog eats with the associated scent then the better it gets at that scent. That's why part of my puppys' initial training is placing teeth and little bones next to the crate about 15 minutes prior to each feeding as well as easy searches.
> 
> Oh, saw the thread on vehicle searches. I didn't want to start another debate, but I work vehicles off-lead. If possible, I want the dog working the vehicles without me walking around in front as the handler's movement can change the scent picture as well as we create air flow. I can do a directed search, but still do that off-lead and maintain pace regardless of dog's pausing to check scent.
> ...


This would be cool to see . Do you do many vehicle searches on the side of busy roads and freeways ?


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Nope, and I understand why narc cops do work on-lead in those situations. That's why I didn't jump in. 

My vehicle searches tend to be on country roads, impound lots, and old barns with lots of vehicles parked around.
My NAPWDA vehicle search last year was interesting with 35 mph winds. Disturubing the scent wasn't an issue, but scent traps were.
If I have to run a dog on a line, I prefer to let them drag a long-line where I can step on it if safety becomes a concern. 

Jim


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

julie allen said:


> The reason I tried the stick as a reward... this has become her favorite thing ever. When we train, I try to make it complete fun. She had no trouble before. I will just leave it as it was then.
> 
> Now I need to proof her from someone throwing a stick while she works lol. In tracking nothing takes her mind from it. I have not tried that during cadaver, but she can see her ball, if its dropped, she pays no mind until she finds the source.


Instead of using sticks as reward, I would observe myself in how I behave when I'm playing with the stick, that is only a game, v/s than playing with the reward. I've seen often, me included, that the game became more of a routine while playing with the reward, because in our minds it is part of the work while we are more relaxed and having more fun ourselves while playing with anything else. I would forget about the sticks and go back to take the toy used to reward and do only playing session and make a fool of myself and... have fun.


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