# Presa's & Mali playing



## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

I promised a video of my dogs playing .. sorry wrong video adding correct one 
http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q293/Heaxe/Extra Photos/?action=view&current=dogsplaying.mp4


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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

Here is the the video 

http://youtu.be/0aUfDWIx8-o


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

your mal seems VERY fun , and really nicely put together, where did she come from ?


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Very nice dogs, Deb. I agree that Mal looks very well put together.


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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

Thanks Tammy & Dave .. She is a fun dog. Truly am enjoying the Mali energy..  

Tammy she is from Vom Fulk Kennels in Canada. 


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

nice fun video to watch and enjoy !
made me jealous and sad at the same time, cause my current dog has never been able to have fun like that with another big dog 

he's played with smaller dogs i've had and worked with, but i still haven't found a "big one" that he can really have fun with .... the search goes on; maybe some day !


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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

rick smith said:


> nice fun video to watch and enjoy !
> made me jealous and sad at the same time, cause my current dog has never been able to have fun like that with another big dog
> 
> he's played with smaller dogs i've had and worked with, but i still haven't found a "big one" that he can really have fun with .... the search goes on; maybe some day !


Thanks Rick .. I have it really nice with the three playing together. Hopefully I can keep this for many years \\/

Best of luck with your boy .. it will come .. it did with my Mali she was not so dog friendly when I got her.


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## katrin bellyeu (Nov 5, 2009)

Deb Vigil said:


> Here is the the video
> 
> http://youtu.be/0aUfDWIx8-o



very nice dogs ;-)


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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

katrin bellyeu said:


> very nice dogs ;-)


Thank you Katrin


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Deb, is she an Angel daughter?

I've met one of the guys from VF... was very impressed with them. I wouldn't hesitate in getting a pup from them if the timing was right.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I have been too augusta ga, and have seen David Kuneman who is probally the best working corso breeder out there in the USA http://www.amorecanecorsos.com/ pups play with mali and DS pups, I know slightly different but the presa and corso are both alot like in size as pups, just thought I throw that in here.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

how old are those Presa?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

how old are those Presa? are they DOGO or presa...what lines?


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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

Ryan Venables said:


> Deb, is she an Angel daughter?
> 
> I've met one of the guys from VF... was very impressed with them. I wouldn't hesitate in getting a pup from them if the timing was right.


The Dam of my female is: Ollie Malidaj



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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> how old are those Presa? are they DOGO or presa...what lines?


Joby 

Well it depends on if you actually fall for the bull of Presa / Dogo crap. The dogs have the same history. Anyway...
Conan: male, 6 yrs old, his lines come from Barnacan Bull, he is one of the most titled Presa/Dogos in our country! 
Xade: female, 2 yrs old, her lines are from Kingo who is out of Irema Curto lines, she is an up an coming Working dog as we are working on SchH & Weight Pulling

Thanks for the questions! 


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Deb Vigil said:


> Joby
> 
> Well it depends on if you actually fall for the bull of Presa / Dogo crap. The dogs have the same history. Anyway...
> Conan: male, 6 yrs old, his lines come from Barnacan Bull, he is one of the most titled Presa/Dogos in our country!
> ...


Deb..I have owned over 25 adult presa...was member number 4 of the PCCA now DCCA, and was deeply involved in the "breed" at the time of official breed recognition....I wrote and executed the first "club" temperament test...which was later stolen by Alex Vyatkin..

if your dog is out of Curto Lines (which I have owned several directly from early Curto lines...a couple direct out of Tomas and a couple from Vento..), you should KNOW that the presa/dogo BULL is NOT crap...

I had Antonio Gomez in my car for 3 hours, a few months before they made the "breed" official and closed the books..had a loooong conversation with him about the "breed" and how foolish I thought it was for them to close the books when the "breed" was lacking in health and working temperament...he told me "we fix type first, close the books, then work on health and temperament issues"...which is the opposite way of creating a functional working breed....

Since you have dogs out of Curto Lineage...you must know that he was blacklisted by the "officality" of the DOGO, and had to get most of his dogs registered under fake names, to get them into the stud books, when the breed DOGO was recognized....

trust me there is quite a difference in the dogs that are official and those that are not...depending on the breedings...

the only reason I asked about the age was concerning the PLAY that you hope to continue into old age with the dogs...I saw the one presa being pushed around alot, and was hoping the dog was not young...as I have seen many a owner not be able to deal with what an old school type presa might mature into, given that type of PLAY...if the dog is older, it is probably fine..but I have heard of, seen, owned and sold many presa, that upon maturity would kill there lovable playmates, without much warning in situations like that..

when I was deep in the "breed" the standard for males was a minimum of 88 lbs...since then they have lowered the height limit by 2-3 inches, raised the minimum weight for males to 110 lbs and omitted the maximum weight limit, making the breed very non-functional..

the history is the same., there is NO history..both types are a re-make...
one type is a working type..and the other a short bully show type..with a few examples straddling the divide..and the working Presa type dogs have a history including very bloody tasks...not walking around a show ring...serious guard work, dog fighting, and taking down cattle and hogs...I should know, we imported dozens of them...around the time of the SPLIT.


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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

Joby, truly thank you for your reply. I talk to many Presa / Dogo owners an I hear so much bull about all. I have been in the breed now for about 8 yrs now. There is so many stories of the dogs. I call it all crap bc most of the stories are. 
I fully understand it is only a matter of time before I will not be able to out my females together. It is coming to it. 
My female the one you say is getting pushed around is becoming a bitch. She is young she is 2. 
My dogs personally are not registered FCI (Dogo) they are both listed as Presa (UKC) 

Are you still in the breed? 
If not why did you get out? 
Are you still friends with the 
Espinoza brothers? 

Anyway, love to pick your brain so I might learn more 

Thanks again 

Deb 




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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Deb Vigil said:


> Joby, truly thank you for your reply. I talk to many Presa / Dogo owners an I hear so much bull about all. I have been in the breed now for about 8 yrs now. There is so many stories of the dogs. I call it all crap bc most of the stories are.
> I fully understand it is only a matter of time before I will not be able to out my females together. It is coming to it.
> My female the one you say is getting pushed around is becoming a bitch. She is young she is 2.
> My dogs personally are not registered FCI (Dogo) they are both listed as Presa (UKC)
> ...


I got out of the breed when we produced a dog that killed a lady in SF..
the media and political pressure and heat from other breeders drove us out...I kept things going for a few years..until the standards changed so much that my dogs were not considered presa anymore 

I was never friends with Dave and his brother persay, but me and Dave used to chat alot online and on the phone a few times...his first presa came down from Tonio Del Jardin...think his name was Sancho...one of our studs was Thor, son of Donte, out of Tonio...Thor was the father of Bain, the infamous SF dog...I always admired and liked Dave for his efforts back then...

If you know Dave, (and like him lol) then it REALLY surprises me that you would make that statement of the BS about the split, and saying that the history is the same....he was an avid of a historian as I ever saw on the "breed's" history...him and Elias...who started the the original EL Presa website...those days were filled with BS, cover-ups and flat out lies...

I am still keeping tabs on the breed, we may get involved again in the next year or so...I just met Mark Banks and his crew from Harijan Kennels, and hung out with them and talked presas for hours, when he came to pick up my pick male DS out of this past litter last week...

From what I gather it is more of the same as back then....travel around the country, test a shit ton of dogs, if people will let you, find a few good ones, and pray they have good hips when you test them....

are your dogs xrayed? just curious...if NOT do so immediately..I have put down more presa with bad hips than I have found functional ones...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

you talking about?
Conan de Atlantida Can? or another dog? any links to his info?


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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I got out of the breed when we produced a dog that killed a lady in SF..
> the media and political pressure and heat from other breeders drove us out...I kept things going for a few years..until the standards changed so much that my dogs were not considered presa anymore
> 
> I was never friends with Dave and his brother persay, but me and Dave used to chat alot online and on the phone a few times...his first presa came down from Tonio Del Jardin...think his name was Sancho...one of our studs was Thor, son of Donte, out of Tonio...Thor was the father of Bain, the infamous SF dog...I always admired and liked Dave for his efforts back then...
> ...


Dave: I only know him like you do and his brother. But I am meeting both on my travel to California. 
The reason I say crap is bc you read so much about both / same / etc. that frankly I am tired of hearing. I want to pick yours, & Dave's brain on the breed. 

You know quoted: "a true Presa is one who works & has proven his ability, not lines" .. Do you agree? 

Mark & his crew are nice guys, I am friends with them all... Mark & I talk a lot about working dogs & decoying bc we both do! 

Hips: yes both of mine are an luckily both good & great hips. I feel ya on going thru so many. I had a few from no body breeders to famous breeders an have placed / put down 5 bitches. 
I must have good hips not just for breeding, health but for ALL I do as I am one of the few (small amount) that actually work my dogs. I am not just talking bite work but weight pull, agility & obedience.


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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> you talking about?
> Conan de Atlantida Can? or another dog? any links to his info?


No the Conan I am speaking of is my dog. 
I have no info on him but know who you are speaking about. 


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