# Need Tracking Help



## Chris Michalek

For past year, I've been having trouble getting the Mal to track. Obviously he knows how to do it and he will indicate articles. 

Michelle M, if you read this, yes I was working on the method you showed me since you showed me in March but wasn't having success other than him indicating the articles and being a nut for the toys but not tracking at all.

The method I am using now is, he only eats on the track. He's not been feed out of a bowl since last wed, he'ds definitely hungry but is still leaving food on the track. I have also been going to the exact same spot and laying nearly the same track for a week. The conditions are rather horrid considering it's 95F at 5:30am.

The video here is pretty typical of how he tracks, he does it for a few steps and then simply loses interest. In this particular vid, you can see, the first time he laid down he was indicating a leaf and so I just ignored it and told him to track again. Then when he found the real article, he didn't indicate....UGH! He tracked better for the past two day but this is the only video I have. I'm going to start videoing most tracking sessions to track his progress. 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TDWyX81oSg


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## Anne Vaini

Chris - have you done food only at the end of the track? He seems to understand how to use his nose to find the food, but doesn't seem to understand that there is a good reason to get to the end of the track.


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## tracey schneider

Im very very very far from any kind of tracking expert........ but............ what do you mean "obviously he knows how to track"?

to me he looks confused, maybe a misplaced correction somewhere along the lines... but if at one time he KNEW how to track, in this video he does not look confident in himself........TO ME. how much food is on the track? I cant tell if there is just very little or if he is missing a bunch and running over them with his head up.

t


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## Chris Michalek

Anne Vaini said:


> Chris - have you done food only at the end of the track? He seems to understand how to use his nose to find the food, but doesn't seem to understand that there is a good reason to get to the end of the track.



Yep, he more or less doesn't give a shit about food. No food, no track. 

I had minor success with articles only and then a game of tug when he indicated. I didn't use food for that then it got out of control and I had to correct him too much for not tracking at all. 

At least now, he kinda tracks and is sorta methodical about it.


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris Michalek said:


> For past year, I've been having trouble getting the Mal to track. Obviously he knows how to do it and he will indicate articles.
> 
> >Chris if he's having trouble tracking do NOT add articles on the
> >track (you can so separate article only tracks) Keep a little
> >tension on the line (don't let it drag on the ground) The track
> >is much too long for this dog. He loses interest real quick and
> >is just walking along (not tracking) most of the time. I like the
> >line under both legs so you can correct down and not up or
> >to the side. I noticed you let the dog walk over the tracking
> >line so it was between both legs but you should have started
> >the track that way
> 
> Michelle M, if you read this, yes I was working on the method you showed me since you showed me in March but wasn't having success other than him indicating the articles and being a nut for the toys but not tracking at all.
> 
> The method I am using now is, he only eats on the track. He's not been feed out of a bowl since last wed, he'ds definitely hungry but is still leaving food on the track. I have also been going to the exact same spot and laying nearly the same track for a week. The conditions are rather horrid considering it's 95F at 5:30am.
> 
> >That works with some dogs, but most dogs I've known don't
> >track for kibble. Try hot dogs or maybe even liver. (real small
> >pieces) You might try the Gary Patterson method of multiple
> >short tracks with increasing difficulty. Three tracks, the first
> >heavy trench with lots of bait, the second separate foot steps
> >with bait in every food step and then maybe a third track with
> >bait patching. The three tracks will depend on the skill level
> >of the dog. Based on this one video I'd say you're going too
> >fast and don't have a solid foundation yet. Get any of
> >Gary Patterson's tracking books or Joanne Plumbs DVD's if
> >you more visually oriented
> 
> The video here is pretty typical of how he tracks, he does it for a few steps and then simply loses interest. In this particular vid, you can see, the first time he laid down he was indicating a leaf and so I just ignored it and told him to track again. Then when he found the real article, he didn't indicate....UGH! He tracked better for the past two day but this is the only video I have. I'm going to start videoing most tracking sessions to track his progress.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TDWyX81oSg


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## Anne Vaini

I would go for 1) tracking in drive or 2) clicker train the track with tug/bite reward. Depending on what you are training for?

If you want to do SchH tracking and you need the slow, methodical, deep nose, then clicker-training might work, but it won't be fast.

If you're not so concerned about high points, then I'd go for the second. I think it might be easier to get his enthusiasm for the track, get him to understand WE GET TO THE END, then slow him down by clicking/marking deep nose and rewarding regardless at what point you are in the track. I would do a 15 foot track with food that goes around the corner of a building and have a decoy there. Not a blind - a building. It should be a total surprise. With a little luck, you'd get one-session imprinting and make a big step towards him wanting to get to the end of the track.

Worst case scenario - with clicker only, you bore him, he doesn't get it, and you play tug. With the tracking in drive, you could end up with fast sloppy tracking.


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## Chris Michalek

you're right Thomas except he ONLY eats his kibble. He will not eat anything else with any kind of fervor. I have tried everything. One night at the club, everyone bet that he would eat green tripe, nope... he tasted it, spit it out and walked away. He doesn't eat meat, he doesn't eat cheese, he doesn't eat vegetables however he will eat corn tortillas but not as well as his kibble. Go figure. 

I think I will go shorter tomorrow morning. I like having the article at the end because it seems to give him purpose. You didn't see it in the vid but at the article indication, I unleash him and play tug or throw a ball. Otherwise, he's completely unmotivated to track. 

I tried tracking with no line but then he would sometime wander off and try to piss on whatever was closest.


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## Carol Boche

Mondio Dog.....


(just kiddin Chris, hope you find the help you need)


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## Chris Michalek

I've tried so many things over the past year.... what I've decided is, with food, he's slow and methodical as you can see, I want to build on that. I also see other improvements over the past week in the sense, he's expecting to track and seems to show some drive to it, I've been letting him drag me to the track. It's the same track in the same place and I like that he seems to want to do it. 

He does track better on dirt but I figured out he was using his eyes and not his nose. That will work for AZ club trials but he's more dog than that. If I trial anywhere else, I'm pretty much ****ed as far as tracking goes if I dont get that nose working.





Anne Vaini said:


> I would go for 1) tracking in drive or 2) clicker train the track with tug/bite reward. Depending on what you are training for?
> 
> If you want to do SchH tracking and you need the slow, methodical, deep nose, then clicker-training might work, but it won't be fast.
> 
> If you're not so concerned about high points, then I'd go for the second. I think it might be easier to get his enthusiasm for the track, get him to understand WE GET TO THE END, then slow him down by clicking/marking deep nose and rewarding regardless at what point you are in the track. I would do a 15 foot track with food that goes around the corner of a building and have a decoy there. Not a blind - a building. It should be a total surprise. With a little luck, you'd get one-session imprinting and make a big step towards him wanting to get to the end of the track.
> 
> Worst case scenario - with clicker only, you bore him, he doesn't get it, and you play tug. With the tracking in drive, you could end up with fast sloppy tracking.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris Michalek said:


> he doesn't eat vegetables however he will eat corn tortillas but not as well as his kibble. Go figure.


Associative Sequence Learning.


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## tracey schneider

wow...... never had that problem lol.....

Id say time for a "forced" track but unless you are with someone with experience I wouldnt try it personally.

I personally wouldnt worry about the food then.....your never gonna force this dog to go crazy over food and in turn the track that way. Why not teach him that the scent leads to his favorite toy? Have to start very short tracks and go back to some basics..... huge reward and play at the end.....he needs motivation, clarity, and confidence.... 
im just thinking out loud.... and of course just my opinion..... 

t


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris Michalek said:


> you're right Thomas except he ONLY eats his kibble. He will not eat anything else with any kind of fervor. I have tried everything. One night at the club, everyone bet that he would eat green tripe, nope... he tasted it, spit it out and walked away. He doesn't eat meat, he doesn't eat cheese, he doesn't eat vegetables however he will eat corn tortillas but not as well as his kibble. Go figure.
> 
> I think I will go shorter tomorrow morning. I like having the article at the end because it seems to give him purpose. You didn't see it in the vid but at the article indication, I unleash him and play tug or throw a ball. Otherwise, he's completely unmotivated to track.
> 
> I tried tracking with no line but then he would sometime wander off and try to piss on whatever was closest.


Chris,

You can't teach a vegetarian dog to track VBG
Seriously, though if he has toy drive use that. Short track with article at the end and then play tug or throw the ball. Eventually add more articles and lengthen the track. When you get a long track with lots of articles play break at some of the articles and 
continue tracking at others.


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## Chris Michalek

tracey delin said:


> wow...... never had that problem lol.....
> 
> Id say time for a "forced" track but unless you are with someone with experience I wouldnt try it personally.
> 
> I personally wouldnt worry about the food then.....your never gonna force this dog to go crazy over food and in turn the track that way. Why not teach him that the scent leads to his favorite toy? Have to start very short tracks and go back to some basics..... huge reward and play at the end.....he needs motivation, clarity, and confidence....
> im just thinking out loud.... and of course just my opinion.....
> 
> t


That's what I have been doing but he doesn't really track. Nose down and fast. And then after the first article he would be so spun I couldn't get him to do anything even after making him lay there for 10-20 minutes. He knows there's a toy and he knows a game of tug is coming so he would just run to the tug. 

How do you properly teach that method?


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## Chris Michalek

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> You can't teach a vegetarian dog to track VBG
> Seriously, though if he has toy drive use that. Short track with article at the end and then play tug or throw the ball. Eventually add more articles and lengthen the track. When you get a long track with lots of articles play break at some of the articles and
> continue tracking at others.



OK, I'll try two short tracks tomorrow morning. One short one with food and one with no food and an article and play play play.


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## Steve Strom

Try partially buring that toy at the end of a short track.


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## Anne Vaini

Steve Strom said:


> Try partially buring that toy at the end of a short track.


why?


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## Chris Michalek

Anne Vaini said:


> why?



so he can't see it. I've been doing that already and it helps. He started to search frantically for the article to play tug and I started getting frustrated with the whole deal and then cursed the world for Mondio not being more popular. That's also why I went back to food and starvation...


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## tracey schneider

Chris Michalek said:


> That's what I have been doing but he doesn't really track. Nose down and fast. And then after the first article he would be so spun I couldn't get him to do anything even after making him lay there for 10-20 minutes. He knows there's a toy and he knows a game of tug is coming so he would just run to the tug.
> 
> How do you properly teach that method?


I have to run.... so super short brainstorm .... you need to teach him a connection.... nose to ground, follow scent, reward comes.... in this case you could try two things..... use the tug/balls buried as mentioned so he happens upon them this will help keep him interested in the track the length of the track and not potentially racing to the articles.....if he is going to fast will miss them.....this may help keep his head down. does he like balls? balls with a squeak maybe... something small. If you do the reward at article indications only... you may run the risk of him racing to the articles to get the reward. In thinking about it more.... I like the buried idea..or at most a mix of the two methods..... however go back, way back, .... you need to make it very clear that his nose and a deep nose leads to the reward. Maybe start with a very large 4x4 scent pad.... very heavily tracked, when you see he is really trying to work it drop a toy when he is not looking on the pad....dont make him scent the pad too long at first as your just trying to make the connection to his brain.... and make it just "appear" and dont forget to mark. Also work on your line handling... Im pretty clueless about tracking line handling.... but what I saw needed work. I look at it this way, it much easier to take a dog down than to build or put something in that isnt there..... use what works, for him its not food...

i didnt proofread so hopefully this makes sense lol....... ok gotta run... 

t


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## Joby Becker

Just saw this one...

I think you are supposed to start like this video shows #-o, its all in the foot work...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_OvTBEQ9B8


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## Chris Michalek

Joby Becker said:


> Just saw this one...
> 
> I think you are supposed to start like this video shows #-o, its all in the foot work...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_OvTBEQ9B8



I think he missed a step because I didn't hear him talk about stepping in dog shit first but I saw him trying to get it off his shoes.


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## Michele Moore

The method I showed you did take a few months to work but I think it was several months ago when we tracked together so I don't know what to tell you. I really don't track when its this hot out so I probably won't be tracking until the end of August because I get off work at 7 and it's already too hot at that point. I'm hoping Nicole has that tracking seminar once it cools down a little. Of course my dog failed tracking at a trial in June so maybe just do the opposite of anything I say, lol

My cousin lives in Flagstaff and wants to learn some tracking stuff so we could always all road trip up north and trouble shoot it.


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## Joby Becker

I learned a scary thing during tracking....

The actual level of world domination that the "ant" has achieved.


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## Michele Moore

Or screw tracking and you can come train mondio at my house, I have my own training field.


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## Chris Michalek

Michele Moore said:


> The method I showed you did take a few months to work but I think it was several months ago when we tracked together so I don't know what to tell you. I really don't track when its this hot out so I probably won't be tracking until the end of August because I get off work at 7 and it's already too hot at that point. I'm hoping Nicole has that tracking seminar once it cools down a little. Of course my dog failed tracking at a trial in June so maybe just do the opposite of anything I say, lol
> 
> My cousin lives in Flagstaff and wants to learn some tracking stuff so we could always all road trip up north and trouble shoot it.



At this point, I'm kinda following the advice of Rodd, Tim and Dre who am I to argue with them? I do like your method and really wanted it to work but you're the only one I know who does it that way. Perhaps I would be more successful if I weren't working so blindly? I dunno.

Tracking this time of year isn't so bad. We were at the park that is at Hayden and Camelback, The grass is nice and thick and the sprinklers turn off at 5am so the ground is pretty moist. 

Yeah a road trip to flag would be cool and I hope Kelly gets the seminar going too. I know a few people from our group would attend.


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## Chris Michalek

Michele Moore said:


> Or screw tracking and you can come train mondio at my house, I have my own training field.


Let's do it. Rodd will wear a suit :mrgreen:

I've been trying to tell him he should do mondio instead of schH.


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## Alan Fielding

Forget about the articles until the dog knows how to track. The dog needs to be very hungry and this may take a couple or more days of NO food to get him motivated. STAMP in a short straight track with food in every footstep . Allow the dog to make a mistake by going off the track-- he must become to realize that the disturbed ground scent leads to reward and going off that scent gets him nothing. Once he begins to learn this you will be on the road to tracking. Then tracks can become longer with less food - every second step, third next randomly placed rewards etc etc. Articles can be introduced later and is usually done with an "article track", Six or seven articles in a row spaced about 6 ft apart. when he indicates these you can begin to add them to the real track assuming he has began to really track. Remember that a dog with low food drive needs to be made very hungry before this will work. Never track with no food reward- would you work for nothing ??I have seen dogs that needed 5 days to 7 days of No food until the proper "frame of mind" is achieved.


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## Joby Becker

Alan Fielding said:


> I have seen dogs that needed 5 days to 7 days of No food until the proper "frame of mind" is achieved.


7 days without food, a dog will damn near do anything...if it can still move...guess thats the point though...

I'd hate to see that mal after not eating for 7 days, even if it was on a video of a perfect track...mals don't have a ton of reserve weight laying around...


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## Chris Michalek

Joby Becker said:


> 7 days without food, a dog will damn near do anything...if it can still move...guess thats the point though...
> 
> I'd hate to see that mal after not eating for 7 days, even if it was on a video of a perfect track...mals don't have a ton of reserve weight laying around...



he's already getting super skinny and I'm battling the wife who has been trying to sneak him food. 

Alan, he knows how to track, you can see it after I corrected him..he's like OOOOOO Better get tracking...

He simply doesn't have the motivation. 

Dre Hastings thinks I need more of a routine for him so that's more or less where I'm at with him.


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## Candy Eggert

Joby Becker said:


> I learned a scary thing during tracking....
> 
> The actual level of world domination that the "ant" has achieved.


LMAO that's for damn sure \\/ Industrious little bastards!!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Joby Becker said:


> 7 days without food, a dog will damn near do anything...if it can still move...guess thats the point though...
> 
> I'd hate to see that mal after not eating for 7 days, even if it was on a video of a perfect track...mals don't have a ton of reserve weight laying around...


And for what ? That's not a pup and will probably never go past a club level..so you starve it and then later on after your podium dreams are quashed, you get rid of it and find another dog to starve =D>

I think the dog has little desire to track, trail or whatever.


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## Joby Becker

Candy Eggert said:


> LMAO that's for damn sure \\/ Industrious little bastards!!


I just did a 50 step track with *frozen* hotdogs and came back for 15 minutes...took the dog there to track..and she ate a small handful of them ants...off of frozen food even...hungry little bastards...


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## Candy Eggert

Joby Becker said:


> I just did a 50 step track with *frozen* hotdogs and came back for 15 minutes...took the dog there to track..and she ate a small handful of them ants...off of frozen food even...hungry little bastards...


Yikes!! This is why I try not to use any bait that smells more powerful than the ground ;-) I had wasps one time on tracking bait and the dog got stung in the mouth. So if the insects want it more then they win!! We just track another day.


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## Joby Becker

Candy Eggert said:


> Yikes!! This is why I try not to use any bait that smells more powerful than the ground ;-) I had wasps one time on tracking bait and the dog got stung in the mouth. So if the insects want it more then they win!! We just track another day.


Yeah I suppose I could have got up at 5 am or so, I just wanted to try a new spot and see if the ants have taken over this entire city, like they have with every other one I've been in ..:roll:.


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## susan tuck

Chris here is a thread where Frank describes and provides video on how to track using balls as reward. I now do it just like he said, always bury the balls COMPLETELY because that's the key, the dog must think the reward comes from the track, not from you. Sometimes there's one ball or none or a few, it all depends. It takes some practice getting it right, knowing exactly how to control the dog at the ball, etc., but it's really not hard if you stick with it and it really works. Maybe it will help you & your dog, maybe not, but this is a real good method.

Also if I were you, I would track that dog with plow lines, each on the dead ring of the fur saver, then under the front legs & up the shoulder area, & I would stay closer to him for better control, don't give him room to turn around on the track. I don't know if you train with corrections andd/or force, and of course I don't know the situation with your dog, I can only say that with my dog, if his head comes up he is corrected & commanded to "such".

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f14/teaching-schutzhund-tracking-ball-4984/

Anyway hope the thread and video from Frank helps.


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## Brett Burton

Sorry if I missed any of this. But a few quick questions.

How was this dog started on tracking? What foundation does this dog have? (Scent pads, circle tracks, short tracks, etc).

The grass field in the video. How often is it mowed if ever? Are people walking on it frequently? How moist is the grass?

If you stomp your foot on the ground and tear it up, like you would when laying a beginner's track, and then get down on your hands and knees, and close your eyes, can you easily tell where the track is using only your nose? Can you easily smell the bait using the same method? And, if you can, is the scent of the grass obviously stronger than the bait, or vice versa?

When your dog tracks, can you hear him sniffing away loudly, "like a hog"?


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## Steve Strom

> >That works with some dogs, but most dogs I've known don't
> >track for kibble. Try hot dogs or maybe even liver. (real small
> >pieces) You might try the Gary Patterson method of multiple
> >short tracks with increasing difficulty. Three tracks, the first
> >heavy trench with lots of bait, the second separate foot steps
> >with bait in every food step and then maybe a third track with
> >bait patching. The three tracks will depend on the skill level
> >of the dog. Based on this one video I'd say you're going too
> >fast and don't have a solid foundation yet. Get any of
> >Gary Patterson's tracking books or Joanne Plumbs DVD's if
> >you more visually oriented


Just to go along with what Thomas wrote about the Gary Patterson book, in the beginning the three tracks are identical and very easy just to build confidence to go forward on a track. What you'll hopefully see is on the third track. He'll run it better then the first two.

Thats the way you gage progress, when he's running all three equally well, you can start adding difficulties to the third track, then the second, etc.

The side effect of this is the dog usually starts picking up speed, but then the book lays out a plan for using the track to slow him down. Its a pretty good step by step plan. That confidence for going forward seems like it would be helpful for your dog.


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## Mike Scheiber

Holly Smokes!!!!! PM Sent


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## Sarah ten Bensel

Mike Scheiber said:


> Holly Smokes!!!!! PM Sent


 Do share! What are your thoughts?


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## Mike Scheiber

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Do share! What are your thoughts?


Got no info seeing if he bringing the dog to Minnesota in August


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## Thomas Barriano

Mike Scheiber said:


> Got no info seeing if he bringing the dog to Minnesota in August



Mike,

Just because the dog is having a little trouble tracking is no reason to make him live in Minnesota. I guess he should be happy he didn't get shipped there in the Winter?


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## Mike Scheiber

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> Just because the dog is having a little trouble tracking is no reason to make him live in Minnesota. I guess he should be happy he didn't get shipped there in the Winter?


You try and walk on all 4's sniff the dirt in AZ you'd be glad to come to Minnesota


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## Tanya Beka

Line handling is important - I find that tracking with a long line and steady back pressure works best. With the line dragging on the ground like you have, your dog has no support from you - once you even leash corrected the dog by accident which sends him mixed signals. The dog is confused because you are not working with him as a "tracking team", just expecting him to track all by himself. Tracking is a team sport between dog and handler - the dog uses his nose, but the handler provides the support for the dog. 

#1 - get a comfortable harness - use it only for tracking - to indicate to the dog that it's tracking time.
#2 - keep your line taut with steady gentle back pressure, never jerking or loose.
#3 - Let him get ahead of you about 10 feet and let him work
#4 - Find out what his motivation is and provide it only at the end of the track - not along the way. I find dogs learn to track betyter this way instead of getting focusssed on what they are finding along the way - get them to want to find the END of the track instead.
#5 - start with short short tracks, maybe only 10 feet. Let him SEE you place the reward there (but hidden in teller grass) and get him to use his nose to find it.
#6 - slowly make the tracks longer, taking away the visual aspect and helping him search with his nose. Praise HEAVILY when he find it.

I think the dog CAN track, but you as the handler need to provide him with the motivation and support he needs to do it. I've never met a mal that can't track. But the handler needs to work WITH the dog, that's what makes a good tracking dog.


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## Chris Michalek

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> Just because the dog is having a little trouble tracking is no reason to make him live in Minnesota. I guess he should be happy he didn't get shipped there in the Winter?



I'm teaching at a Seminar in Aug for a week and since I'm from there, I'm staying for two weeks and want to bring the mali. 

He would be a great dog if the ****er would track.


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## tracey schneider

susan tuck said:


> Chris here is a thread where Frank describes and provides video on how to track using balls as reward. I now do it just like he said, always bury the balls COMPLETELY because that's the key, the dog must think the reward comes from the track, not from you. Sometimes there's one ball or none or a few, it all depends. It takes some practice getting it right, knowing exactly how to control the dog at the ball, etc., but it's really not hard if you stick with it and it really works. Maybe it will help you & your dog, maybe not, but this is a real good method.
> 
> Also if I were you, I would track that dog with plow lines, each on the dead ring of the fur saver, then under the front legs & up the shoulder area, & I would stay closer to him for better control, don't give him room to turn around on the track. I don't know if you train with corrections andd/or force, and of course I don't know the situation with your dog, I can only say that with my dog, if his head comes up he is corrected & commanded to "such".
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f14/teaching-schutzhund-tracking-ball-4984/
> 
> Anyway hope the thread and video from Frank helps.


Excellent.......... bout where I was going in my pea brain... never heard of anyone tracking this way before.... very cool\\/. Funny though, the whole time Im picturing it in my head, Im thinking.... what a PIA to dig holes for the balls.... bulb digger.... genious!!! =D>


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## Thomas Barriano

Mike Scheiber said:


> You try and walk on all 4's sniff the dirt in AZ you'd be glad to come to Minnesota



Mike,

I haven't gotten on all fours and sniffed the dirt, since I stopped doing drugs and drinking


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## Kevin Walsh

All I have is my experience to go on.

I would be careful about changing the "program" too much on the dog.
Couple things come to mind.

1 - is the dog indicating the article, or has it just learned that if I down at stuff on the track I get a treat? I used to remove any leaves or sticks from my tracks and then realized I was screwing myself. The dog needs to be able to decipher the difference b/w an article with the scent on it and a leaf of stick that doesn't

2 - I tried the "only eat on the track" method. I didn't find it very effective. There is a difference b/w hunger and motivation. Hunger can sometimes motivate, but I think it's a little a head of where you are at. I would start all over. You will progress fairly quickly when you start building on the proper foundation, but be patient and methodical. It is all too easy to think "he's got it" and start skipping little steps.
I can say with a 1000% certainty that the person that takes the most time and patients training their dog will get the best results.

I hate to sound like a doosh, but have you read up in any of the books? I think Gary Patterson (training the behavior) and Tom Rose (training with the touch) have very effective programs. I have sort of used a little of both, but once I started sticking with a program, I started to see results. Tracking is something that is natural to the dog and we all screw it up trying to train it. More than the other phases, I think tracking really requires you to be able to read you dog so you can help it through the confusion. That will build confidence, which leads to motivation, which leads to success. 
About a month ago I lost my cool and put pressure on my dog on the track. I was just about to try for a 1, and she totally shut down on me after the pressure. I had to completely rebuild from the ground up. I am not out of the woods, but I can say that from being patient and methodical, my dog is tracking WAY better now then before the blow out. AND, I know how to read her so if she is getting nervous, I can motivate her through it.

I hope this helps...


----------



## Timothy Saunders

I think Alan Fielding was the most right about this and I would like to add that you need to stop tracking this dog and work on his general food drive. You should make it where the dog is attacking is food bowl to eat. Once he is doing this then start to feed his meals in the track.


----------



## Chris Michalek

I've read every tracking book I can find. I've watched a couple of VST tracking vids and (without name dropping) I've worked with some of the top schH competitors around. Everybody seems to be at a loss other than to starve the shit out of him.

I tried tracking for a ball this morning but I couldn't get past a step before he would go back into drive and want to run to find the ball at the end. 

I played with him and the ball, got it wet and juicy, then had a training friend drag it along the ground for about 40yrds. The dog was amped up, I made him lay down until his drive dropped, as soon as I told him to search, he would sniff a footstep and pop into drive again and only want to run and get the ball. I would make him down again and wait for his drive to drop and start over. I made it about 4-5 steps before I got frustrated with the process and especially the heat - 97F at 5:30am.

I don't have vid of the ball but I did try to track him with food first. He did great for about 15ft then he lost interest again and quit on me, at that point, I dragged him off the filed and put him up. I freed him up later with some play. 

I will try both methods this afternoon. 

FYI- from 9wks to 14wks, he ate almost every meal on a scent pad either.


----------



## maggie fraser

Try him on sardines!


----------



## Chris Michalek

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think Alan Fielding was the most right about this and I would like to add that you need to stop tracking this dog and work on his general food drive. You should make it where the dog is attacking is food bowl to eat. Once he is doing this then start to feed his meals in the track.



He actually goes nuts for his kibble at feeding time. I can't get it to translate outside of the house. He simply doesn't like to eat anything outside of his kibble, corn tortillas and orange slices.

HE's the only dog I feed from my plate, I'm always trying to get him to eat new and different things but he isn't having any of that.


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Try him on sardines!


tried it.


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## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> tried it.


 
Don't believe you!


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## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Don't believe you!



wants some video? 

We had the same bet with green tripe one night at the club. I won five free meals out of that one. He wouldn't eat it. 

I've tried:
Tuna
Cat Food
Baby Food
Junk Food
Raw/grill meats of all kinds.
vegetables
milk
cheese
sour cream
yogurt
eggs

The only thing he eats with fervor is his kibble. I think it's an OCD thing.


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> wants some video?
> 
> We had the same bet with green tripe one night at the club. I won five free meals out of that one. He wouldn't eat it.
> 
> I've tried:
> Tuna
> Cat Food
> Baby Food
> Junk Food
> Raw/grill meats of all kinds.
> vegetables
> milk
> cheese
> sour cream
> yogurt
> eggs
> 
> The only thing he eats with fervor is his kibble. I think it's an OCD thing.


Yup, I don't see any sardines in there!


----------



## Steve Strom

Chris Michalek said:


> I don't have vid of the ball but I did try to track him with food first. He did great for about 15ft


How about doing some 15' tracks for a while.


----------



## Timothy Saunders

Chris Michalek said:


> He actually goes nuts for his kibble at feeding time. I can't get it to translate outside of the house. He simply doesn't like to eat anything outside of his kibble, corn tortillas and orange slices.
> 
> HE's the only dog I feed from my plate, I'm always trying to get him to eat new and different things but he isn't having any of that.


then start his track inside.or teach him to search first


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## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Yup, I don't see any sardines in there!



ok Maggie you win. 

I have tried sardines in the past but not when he was this hungry.

I just layed a 30ft track using two cans of sardines. The first one was bit of fish for the first 15ft or so and then just the oil where I got him to indicate an unopened tin that he really seemed to enjoy. 

I will try it tomorrow morning when it's not 118F like right now.

In the past he wouldn't eat them or even lick out the tin like the other dogs.


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## maggie fraser

Ok Chris ,

What about taking him back to scratch with a scent pad (and sardines), and taking it slowly, just like with any dog who is not sure what they are doing. Just a wee suggestion.


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## Anne Vaini

Chris - are you willing to try something unconventional and probably never done before?

Your dog does the behavior (nose to ground, smell, move forward on the scent trail). The issue is duration. If he CONTINUED the this, he would be tracking. Correct?

So why not treat it like adding duration to any other behavior?

Make a series of scent pads and 10 foot tracks.

Bust out your marker and mark after 2 steps - since you know that is how much he'll give you. Reward! Tug is too stimulating, so why not throw the ball forward? 

Next track, he will probably be very willing to track the two steps. Keep a shortish leash like you do in the video. If he goes on to the third step, mark and reward. If he doesn't go on to the third step, WAIT. When he puts his nose down to begin tracking again, makr and throw the ball.

Once you get started, use variable reward schedule. Get him tracking down 10 foot tracks and rewarding at the end. By then you should have strong enough tracking that you can increase the length of your tracks - continue keep the reward schedule variable.

You know your dog and you've used the variable reward schedule for training heeling, so you shouldn't have any problems with a variable reward schedule - once you get started.


----------



## Kevin Walsh

maggie fraser said:


> Ok Chris ,
> 
> What about taking him back to scratch with a scent pad (and sardines), and taking it slowly, just like with any dog who is not sure what they are doing. Just a wee suggestion.


I was just going to suggest this...Combine this with your feed only method

setup the scratch pad with food. Start creating tension on the line like you are pulling the dog out, but let him "win". Once he gets that part of it and has some confidence about it, start pulling harder and actually make him work (scratch and pull) to stay in.
If you can pull him out, he doesn't eat until next try.
This will help with two things.
1) create drive for the food
2) create drive for the track


----------



## susan tuck

Chris Michalek said:


> I tried tracking for a ball this morning but I couldn't get past a step before he would go back into drive and want to run to find the ball at the end.
> 
> I played with him and the ball, got it wet and juicy, then had a training friend drag it along the ground for about 40yrds. The dog was amped up, I made him lay down until his drive dropped, as soon as I told him to search, he would sniff a footstep and pop into drive again and only want to run and get the ball. I would make him down again and wait for his drive to drop and start over. I made it about 4-5 steps before I got frustrated with the process and especially the heat - 97F at 5:30am.
> 
> I don't have vid of the ball but I did try to track him with food first. He did great for about 15ft then he lost interest again and quit on me, at that point, I dragged him off the filed and put him up. I freed him up later with some play.
> 
> I will try both methods this afternoon.
> 
> FYI- from 9wks to 14wks, he ate almost every meal on a scent pad either.


???? Did you watch Frank's video?


----------



## maggie fraser

susan tuck said:


> ???? Did you watch Frank's video?


 
He probably didn't, he sounds like he's deflecting all advice 'cos he's peed off and can't turn it on quick !

Apologies for answering for you Chris.


----------



## susan tuck

lol, lol such is life!!! :grin:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Don't apologise Maggie - he doesn't listen - didn't last time when we said he should go back to square one!

All he's good for is the "Schnurregigele". Basta!

I think he's quite a likeable chap otherwise......


----------



## maggie fraser

Gillian Schuler said:


> Don't apologise Maggie - he doesn't listen - didn't last time when we said he should go back to square one!
> 
> All he's good for is the "Schnurregigele". Basta!
> 
> I think he's quite a likeable chap otherwise......


Yeah I agree Gillian, I have plans to take him flipperin...but there are rules..mine 8)!

There's just no telling some folks...just can't get the staff these days....


----------



## Chris Michalek

susan tuck said:


> ???? Did you watch Frank's video?



I did. I read that whole thread. I'm going to give the ball idea more time too but this 95F at dawn shit sucks.


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> I did. I read that whole thread. I'm going to give the ball idea more time too but this 95F at dawn shit sucks.


Try getting up earlier then, failing that wait till the season changes and you have less excuse :grin:, if that doesn't work, try again with a new pup lol.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Food for tracking at the most but never toys?????

eegit!


----------



## Alan Fielding

My own dog was not food oriented either, took him about three days of no food before the food rewards on the track were important enough for him to use his nose to find them . I personally do not like to up the ante too much in the choice of "bait " on the track. I use his dog cookies broken in small pieces . He relates these with a reward because that is what I always use as a reward. Remember that proper tracking is not about the bait you use but the ability to discern a certain scent and follow it. The bait on the track is a means to an end. Remember on trial day there is no bait. The dog must make the connection that the scent of the track will at some point lead to a reward. Chris, you say your dog can track, I did not see this in your video . There is NO commitment to the task at hand. I would "manufacture" food drive and then commence tracking with short , well stamped in tracks under good weather conditions. There is no sense in tracking a inexperienced dog in difficult conditions . You begin with small victories under good conditions and when the dog shows he is capable you move forward and make it more difficult. By tracking in very hot weather you are predisposing your dog to failure and boredom rather then establishing a "joy for the work" or as I like to say a positive work ethic. The best trackers do it because the like it. Other posts mentioning a routine is also very important-- my dog "knows" he is tracking as soon as I snap on his long tracking line.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Hot is the norm around here. He runs around in the back yard or field with his nose to the ground all the time even when it's 115F. They lay out in the sun in the middle of the day. The dogs get worked in the heat too, we just keep the sessions short and have a tub of water for them to cool down in before and after the sessions. The other choice would be to wait until the end of Sept when it's only 85F at 5:30am

If I could get his tracking together I'd like to do his scH1 at the end of sept. Everything else is in place except the tracking which is why I do it everyday. I would do it twice a day or more but after 7am it's too damn hot.

I just tracked him with Sardines a couple of hours ago in 110F heat. He did better than yesterday and better than this morning. I'm anxious for 5:30 tomorrow.


I'm uploading the vid from this morning. It's not pretty and I get pissed at the end something I shouldn't have done but it happened. 

FYI- I'm not just starting him now. We've been at this for over a year with out much progress. What are scent pads going to help? He'll do the same shit you see in the vids. For the first couple of months of his life he ate nearly every meal from a scent pad. I'm crabby and frustrated today.....






Alan Fielding said:


> My own dog was not food oriented either, took him about three days of no food before the food rewards on the track were important enough for him to use his nose to find them . I personally do not like to up the ante too much in the choice of "bait " on the track. I use his dog cookies broken in small pieces . He relates these with a reward because that is what I always use as a reward. Remember that proper tracking is not about the bait you use but the ability to discern a certain scent and follow it. The bait on the track is a means to an end. Remember on trial day there is no bait. The dog must make the connection that the scent of the track will at some point lead to a reward. Chris, you say your dog can track, I did not see this in your video . There is NO commitment to the task at hand. I would "manufacture" food drive and then commence tracking with short , well stamped in tracks under good weather conditions. There is no sense in tracking a inexperienced dog in difficult conditions . You begin with small victories under good conditions and when the dog shows he is capable you move forward and make it more difficult. By tracking in very hot weather you are predisposing your dog to failure and boredom rather then establishing a "joy for the work" or as I like to say a positive work ethic. The best trackers do it because the like it. Other posts mentioning a routine is also very important-- my dog "knows" he is tracking as soon as I snap on his long tracking line.


----------



## Chris Michalek

tracking from this morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP5mcmTNKe0

Things to note. I let him out of the truck to piss him. Then he dragged me to the place where we track, HE picked up my entry tracks which is why you see us walking down the side of the culvert. 

I get pissed at him at the end and I know I should but it happened. I freed him up later by playing with him and then I tried the ball method but it wasn't working vs the increasing heat. So I removed him from that area, played with him some more and then we went home.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I watched your FIRST video, and you need to get one of your world class club members to show you what to do. Your dog is not missing many meals, I can tell you that buddy. LOL He is just looking for the food, and you are about ten steps further along in training in YOUR HEAD than the dog is.

Seriously, get off the forum, and get one of your club members to help. Hell, give the dog to him and let him get the dog started.

I also don't see the dog that stressed about the heat. Maybe you are, but he seems fine. Where is all the panting ? I don't even see that he is wet.

Lots of good answers to your questions, I just don't see you being able to apply them without someone else there.


----------



## Nicole Stark

I'm interested in seeing your next video. You used sardines today, is this what you attribute to Xico doing better? If not, what other factors were different?

Your comment about tracking him every day I found interesting, particularly because you also indicated that he's got his nose to the ground pretty much everywhere else. My dog does too and her tracking has always what I've considered to be solid. In other words I have come to trust not only her tracking ability but her judgement when it comes to showing me certain things by how she uses her nose. If that makes sense.

Anyway, that said, I don't see that same picture in the video you presented. Something isn't right and I am not so sure it's with the dog - that is, if your previous description of him is accurate. I rarely comment on training posts and if I do it's often done privately because I've got nothing legitimate behind me to qualify my offering advice to anyone. But this much I know, the picture I see from my own dog (off breed) on a track and the one I see from yours isn't the same. This is what has me interested in what's going on. It almost reminds me of the picture I used to get when I'd try to play with my dog. I know why I got that picture, and I wonder if the cause is similar to what's going on with your dog.

Yep Jeff - you are getting at what I was trying to say in another way. Thank you.

I just watched your last video and I'll just get to what I initially thought - the problem isn't the dog, my guess is it's you. Looks to me like he's got an attitude that bad things happen on the track. That was my impression with the first and the second video.


----------



## Chris Michalek

I'm not tracking alone Jeff. They are all more or less stumped at the moment and I'm just following their advice. We're not worried about my handling skills yet, when the dog starts showing motivation then I'll have something more to do other than watch him.

I don't need to wet him down for tracking. Though I do dump water on him before I crate him.


You think he's chubby? I was getting shit a few months ago him being too hippy. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I watched your FIRST video, and you need to get one of your world class club members to show you what to do. Your dog is not missing many meals, I can tell you that buddy. LOL He is just looking for the food, and you are about ten steps further along in training in YOUR HEAD than the dog is.
> 
> Seriously, get off the forum, and get one of your club members to help. Hell, give the dog to him and let him get the dog started.
> 
> I also don't see the dog that stressed about the heat. Maybe you are, but he seems fine. Where is all the panting ? I don't even see that he is wet.
> 
> Lots of good answers to your questions, I just don't see you being able to apply them without someone else there.


----------



## Chris Michalek

I know what a tracking dog looks like and I know the Mali doesn't look like that, I can't seem to communicate to him properly. I which I could get get him to act like a plow and drive forward but tension on the leash makes him do nothing, so I do it with a loose line for now.

I'll have to take vid of the rottie tracking. I made one the other day but it was difficult for him with a new track layer over an old track of mine with fresh cross tracks. 

This afternoon, there was no line, I also let him watch me lay the track. I just let him go and do his thing. Mostly to see if he'd eat sardines. 

Should I free track him tomorrow? I'm thinking yes but haven't run it past my tracking partner who knows more about this stuff than me. I've free tracked him in the past and he would just leave the track and piss on a tree.




Nicole Stark said:


> I'm interested in seeing your next video. You used sardines today, is this what you attribute to Xico doing better? If not, what other factors were different?
> 
> Your comment about tracking him every day I found interesting, particularly because you also indicated that he's got his nose to the ground pretty much everywhere else. My dog does too and her tracking has always what I've considered to be solid. In other words I have come to trust not only her tracking ability but her judgement when it comes to showing me certain things by how she uses her nose. If that makes sense.
> 
> Anyway, that said, I don't see that same picture in the video you presented. Something isn't right and I am not so sure it's with the dog - that is, if your previous description of him is accurate. I rarely comment on training posts and if I do it's often done privately because I've got nothing legitimate behind me to qualify my offering advice to anyone. But this much I know, the picture I see from my own dog (off breed) on a track and the one I see from yours isn't the same. This is what has me interested in what's going on. It almost reminds me of the picture I used to get when I'd try to play with my dog. I know why I got that picture, and I wonder if the cause is similar to what's going on with your dog.
> 
> Yep Jeff - you are getting at what I was trying to say in another way. Thank you.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Nicole Stark said:


> I just watched your last video and I'll just get to what I initially thought - the problem isn't the dog, my guess is it's you. Looks to me like he's got an attitude that bad things happen on the track. That was my impression with the first and the second video.



But that's not it, nothing bad has ever happened to him on the track with the exception of my getting pissed and yanking him off. 

He has ALWAYS been that way. Even as a puppy when he would eat from scent pads, he would be slow and gingerly about it and thats what stumps the guys I train with.

I don't disagree that it's not me, I just don't know what it is to fix it.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I watched your FIRST video, and you need to get one of your world class club members to show you what to do.



The dog isn't ready for allegedly cheating yet. He needs to track first. 8-[


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Chris what kind of collar are you using? The reason I ask as I am watching the second video I noticed (just like the first one) that once the line gets tight/ he's self correcting and that is all it takes for him to break concentration. I suggest a harness for a while to take the pressure off the neck. 

Also- you loosing your temper is the stupidist thing I have seen in a long time, SHAME ON YOU. Dogs don't have the same kind of drive during tracking that they have during OB or protection. That was not fair to your dog. I'd worry a whole lot about that. Dragging them off wanting more is different then dragging then off in fear of their handler.

You lost big brownie points with me today dude.

Good Luck,

Julie


----------



## Nicole Stark

Chris Michalek said:


> Should I free track him tomorrow? I'm thinking yes but haven't run it past my tracking partner who knows more about this stuff than me. I've free tracked him in the past and he would just leave the track and piss on a tree.


I wouldn't. If you choose to press on in absence of a solid answer or direction to go in you should consider Julie's suggestion of using a harness on him. I'm going to take further discussion on this over to PM. Anything else I'd have to offer at this point would be useless to the forum.

Talk to you in a bit...


----------



## Chris Michalek

Fur Saver is what he always wear. 

Yes I know I lost it today. It's the reason I didn't post the vid earlier and I got chewed out by the guy holding the camera. I'm generally very good about it, overall I'm crabby today. I woke up that way. I freed up the dog soon after I did that and all seems fine he's more resilient than I am.

I can try a harness tomorrow. I'm open to anything.


My plan for tomorrow is this, 

I'm going to platz him and let him watch me lay the track. Then I'll jazz him up to eat and let him go. 





Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Chris what kind of collar are you using? The reason I ask as I am watching the second video I noticed (just like the first one) that once the line gets tight/ he's self correcting and that is all it takes for him to break concentration. I suggest a harness for a while to take the pressure off the neck.
> 
> Also- you loosing your temper is the stupidist thing I have seen in a long time, SHAME ON YOU. Dogs don't have the same kind of drive during tracking that they have during OB or protection. That was not fair to your dog. I'd worry a whole lot about that. Dragging them off wanting more is different then dragging then off in fear of their handler.
> 
> You lost big brownie points with me today dude.
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Julie


----------



## Michele Moore

Maybe you just aren't sticking with one method or style long enough. If you are tracking with Dre, I would just get a tracking plan from him and see it through for a few months and start back a few steps as if he is a puppy.

I know I told you when I tracked with you before I don't think Xico 100% knows his job out there. That is still my opinion so maybe we will just agree to disagree. The reason I think that is I had the same issue with my dog, except he is a lot more food motivated. That is why I switched up training a little to make him track for articles instead of tracking for food which is what he was essentially doing. 

Either way, I would just pick a method and stick with it. I think it is too hot right now anyway and that is based on what a few world class tracking trainers told me  It was 90 degrees at 4am the other day when I was at work. Since I don't get done until 7, I haven't been tracking because it is 100 by then.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Michele Moore said:


> Maybe you just aren't sticking with one method or style long enough. If you are tracking with Dre, I would just get a tracking plan from him and see it through for a few months and start back a few steps as if he is a puppy.
> 
> I know I told you when I tracked with you before I don't think Xico 100% knows his job out there. That is still my opinion so maybe we will just agree to disagree. The reason I think that is I had the same issue with my dog, except he is a lot more food motivated. That is why I switched up training a little to make him track for articles instead of tracking for food which is what he was essentially doing.
> 
> Either way, I would just pick a method and stick with it. I think it is too hot right now anyway and that is based on what a few world class tracking trainers told me  It was 90 degrees at 4am the other day when I was at work. Since I don't get done until 7, I haven't been tracking because it is 100 by then.


I don't disagree with you that he doesn't understand his purpose. I stuck with your method until May and then took a break until last week when the guys told me to starve the shit out of him and go back to food. That's where I am. It IS hot but not so hot that it should bother him, this is life in AZ and he doesn't know any different. The other dogs are tracking fine in the same conditions though we keep the tracks very short because we don't want open mouth tracking. We go to that park because the sprinklers turn off at 5am. It keeps the ground cooler and moist.

I don't track with Dre but have talked to him about it and he's seen Xico track. He didn't have an answer other than get a better routine and starve him.


----------



## Tanya Beka

Chris,

You are the person with the broken car who takes it to the mechanic and says, it's broken! The mechanic suggests that it could be "x" and you say, "no, no! It's not that I already tried that!" The mechanic then says, "Well, it could be "y"...your immediate response "no! I already tried that! Nothing will fix this f'n car!!"


You are stopping your dog. Put a friggin HARNESS on the dog - use it only for tracking and find his motivation! Quit the crappy foot step tracking with food and use what he WANTS only at the end of the track. If it's a bowl of kibble, fine - if it's a ball, fine. If it's a person he loves, FINE! Just do it! 

Go back to basics - show him what he wants. Take what he wants a few steps away and place in grass. Let him go get it.

Repeat repeat repeat. Then make the distance longer. SLOWLY. Keep it light, fun and simple. Your dog is NOT tracking, he's going for a walk and eating kibble. YOU are not supporting him and that Sh*t at the end of the second video of you yanking him - be ashamed of yourself! THERE IS NO CORRECTION IN TRACKING UNLESS THE DOG CAN ALREADY TRACK AND IS DELIBERATELY SCREWING OFF. 

You are an idiot. Listen to those who know how to track or quit before you permanently wreck your dog.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Chris, you gave someone this advice awhile ago regarding training..seems to fit in this situation.



Chris Michalek said:


> Please stop until you can read a dog.


----------



## Michele Moore

On heat, that had more to do with I was told something about the scent doesn't hold as well when you are tracking in conditions that the temperature and humidity combined equal a number over 100. I don't have any references to attach on that but was told by several people. So I stick with short tracks that aren't really aged if I do track this time of year. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable then me can either confirm that on here or tell you I'm full of sh!t. One of the people who said it was Julia Priest though and I think she is a pretty decent tracking trainer


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Chris, you gave someone this advice awhile ago regarding training..seems to fit in this situation.



Germwood.....be nice.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Michele Moore said:


> On heat, that had more to do with I was told something about the scent doesn't hold as well when you are tracking in conditions that the temperature and humidity combined equal a number over 100. I don't have any references to attach on that but was told by several people. So I stick with short tracks that aren't really aged if I do track this time of year. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable then me can either confirm that on here or tell you I'm full of sh!t. One of the people who said it was Julia Priest though and I think she is a pretty decent tracking trainer



That's exactly what Tim says and that's what we do. Lay the track, get the dog and then put him up. 

I'm going to do my best to implement some of these ideas and I won't get pissed the dog this time either.


----------



## tracey schneider

Ok since we are being honest now... Lol... I haven't watched the second video and by the responses not sure I need to.

The dog, personally I'm still waiting on the answer of why you think he "obviously knows how to track". I didn't see that, I saw a confused dog, a worried dog, and a dog not confident in his task and he looks soft to me and def. Not resilient in the video. 

Here is a big guess but something tells me I'm not too far off... On the rest.... Dog is probably resilient in other phases... But maybe not? I don't know. Maybe he is not as resilient as you think. He doesn't look resilient in the video. All three phases carry over maybe some of his worry is from that. Or maybe these self corrections of stepping on the leash, the pissed off handler not giving much guidance and support, maybe he is not as resilient as you think he is. Add the fact that he is not tracking in drive and a tap could really mess with him esp if he is already unsure about what he is being asked.

I would love to see some ob if you have it. That could show your relationship with him. Cuz right it appears strained and unclear. 

Last note, I don't understand you're given advice but you folow it half ass and then try and rush it again and then throw your hands up? 

Also really the last note, the first rule of tracking is to get the dog to the end of the track. That is the goal... There should be big reward (relative) at the end, big play, patting, excitement whatever it takes... Never should it be a negative as in blah boring but certainly never a pissed off handler. Shoot if it were me and I was getting corrected (see vid 1) for what I thoguht was right, getting to a blah end and then a disgruntled handler... I wouldn't be very motivated to track either. 

Now thats just if I had an opinion... Which I don't!

T


----------



## Christopher Smith

Chris it looks like your dog is worried about you also. Every time you give him any information using the line he gets worried. He also worries when you approach him or interact with him. I think you should just leave the dog alone. Tell him "search" one time and don't do anything else. I think free tracking is a good idea. But don't try to control him on the track just let him do his thing and get some confidence. 

You are missing one of the main points about using food/starve method, if the dog comes off of the track you don't go back and help him. You simply put him away until the next track. You're not doing him any favors by showing him where the track is, you're only teaching him that if he has a problem you will sort it out for him. 

Why don't you call Dana M for some help? She took her dog to a lot championships and he was not the most talented natural tracking dog.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Germwood.....be nice.

Actually, you need your ass kicked a little here. You are the disaster. LOL


----------



## Chris Michalek

Understood. 

This thread is one day old, there is a lot to digest and a ton of different methods coupled with the fact that I'm out there tracking with somebody who knows better than I do and who thinks I'm an idiot posting on a dog board and listening to people I don't know. I've read every post and some thing resonate more with me than others. 

I get told from guys that I know, "if he ****s around or doesn't want to keep his nose to the ground, pull him from the track and see if he wants to eat tomorrow." Of course I didn't do it right because I was all pissy, that's not a habit of mine so it doesn't worry me. 

The dog is handler sensitive, not weak. 

I know he can track, I've seen him on tracks with corners and curves.

What you see in these vids is me trying to dial everything back to short straight tracks in the same place.

I'm told to leave him and let him just do his thing.

You'll see me implement some of the ideas in this thread later this week. 

I do appreciate the advice more than you know.


I post these vids not only to help me but to help others. 

Especially with yanking my dog in frustration, I know better but I decided to post it unedited for others to learn from my mistakes.

Most of the beatings on me are warranted.








tracey delin said:


> Ok since we are being honest now... Lol... I haven't watched the second video and by the responses not sure I need to.
> 
> The dog, personally I'm still waiting on the answer of why you think he "obviously knows how to track". I didn't see that, I saw a confused dog, a worried dog, and a dog not confident in his task and he looks soft to me and def. Not resilient in the video.
> 
> Here is a big guess but something tells me I'm not too far off... On the rest.... Dog is probably resilient in other phases... But maybe not? I don't know. Maybe he is not as resilient as you think. He doesn't look resilient in the video. All three phases carry over maybe some of his worry is from that. Or maybe these self corrections of stepping on the leash, the pissed off handler not giving much guidance and support, maybe he is not as resilient as you think he is. Add the fact that he is not tracking in drive and a tap could really mess with him esp if he is already unsure about what he is being asked.
> 
> I would love to see some ob if you have it. That could show your relationship with him. Cuz right it appears strained and unclear.
> 
> Last note, I don't understand you're given advice but you folow it half ass and then try and rush it again and then throw your hands up?
> 
> Also really the last note, the first rule of tracking is to get the dog to the end of the track. That is the goal... There should be big reward (relative) at the end, big play, patting, excitement whatever it takes... Never should it be a negative as in blah boring but certainly never a pissed off handler. Shoot if it were me and I was getting corrected (see vid 1) for what I thoguht was right, getting to a blah end and then a disgruntled handler... I wouldn't be very motivated to track either.
> 
> Now thats just if I had an opinion... Which I don't!
> 
> T


----------



## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Germwood.....be nice.
> 
> Actually, you need your ass kicked a little here. You are the disaster. LOL



I know I deserve it.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Christopher Smith said:


> Chris it looks like your dog is worried about you also. Every time you give him any information using the line he gets worried. He also worries when you approach him or interact with him. I think you should just leave the dog alone. Tell him "search" one time and don't do anything else. I think free tracking is a good idea. But don't try to control him on the track just let him do his thing and get some confidence.
> 
> You are missing one of the main points about using food/starve method, if the dog comes off of the track you don't go back and help him. You simply put him away until the next track. You're not doing him any favors by showing him where the track is, you're only teaching him that if he has a problem you will sort it out for him.
> 
> Why don't you call Dana M for some help? She took her dog to a lot championships and he was not the most talented natural tracking dog.


Dana used to train with us but was ill for awhile and stopped coming out. I just saw her a couple of weeks ago when she came to pick up her dog from Tim. 

That's Tim Evan's voice in the video, he told me the same thing you just did and gave me a lashing for getting pissed and not controlling it. But, that's way I'm mostly hands off with the dog but give him a chance to do it again which was advised by Tim.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Call her! If you ask her for help she'll be there. This I guarantee.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Christopher Smith said:


> Call her! If you ask her for help she'll be there. This I guarantee.



riiiight....5:30am is not her thing. You know that!

I'm going to ask for help this weekend though. She fun but not when the sun is rising. She's seen him track before but that was in March. It will be good to get an update on her thoughts and ideas.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
This thread is one day old, there is a lot to digest and a ton of different methods coupled with the fact that I'm out there tracking with somebody who knows better than I do and who thinks I'm an idiot posting on a dog board and listening to people I don't know.

But then again, this is not a new problem, and if they gave a shit, then they would have you tracking by now. You probably know some of us better than you know him. LOL


----------



## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> You probably know some of us better than you know him. LOL


that's probably true. It's my fault for not asking somebody to track with me sooner. Thats the thing we usually do solo. In this case the guy behind the camera isn't working so he's helping me with tracking.


----------



## Faisal Khan

I just saw the video, the dog is lifting his head and looking and walking around! yet you let him continue! You really need to stop what you are doing pronto and find someone knowledgeable to train with. Net advice ain't gonna cut it.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Sure it will. He isn't following it. THAT is the problem. Didn't you have that silly advice on teaching the jump ? Maybe we should not listen to internet advice. 

AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA


----------



## Matthew Grubb

Chris... big kudos for posting the video. You are having issues and posted the video to ask for help. most people here wouldn't have the stones to do the same.

Weed through the posts.. there are some good points to be had. Some of the important ones…

Tracking shouldn’t involve physical correction…. Especially when you have a handler sensitive dog like you have.

Line handling and how you use the line to communicate with the dog on the track is really important..

Patience…patience….patience. if you are gonna work a Mal you gotta have more patience.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sure it will. He isn't following it. THAT is the problem. Didn't you have that silly advice on teaching the jump ? Maybe we should not listen to internet advice.
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA


its wasn't silly jeff. I don't want you to get into a cluster ****ed situation like me. :-s


----------



## Chris Michalek

Matthew Grubb said:


> Chris... big kudos for posting the video. You are having issues and posted the video to ask for help. most people here wouldn't have the stones to do the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patience…patience….patience. if you are gonna work a Mal you gotta have more patience.



I know.... lots most of my patience with the rottweiler a year ago :???: In general I'm pretty good about being up up up with the dogs and patient. Hard not to be moody and be a good musician.

I'm getting ready to leave in a few minutes and am in a good mood today.


----------



## tracey schneider

Chris Michalek said:


> The dog is handler sensitive, not weak.
> 
> I know he can track, I've seen him on tracks with corners and curves.
> 
> I post these vids not only to help me but to help others.



hey Chris,
on the dog not being weak, i wasnt implying that, just to be clear. O

On the "he can track":^o.... so then the BIG question is.... so what happened? Can you figure that out? Where did the big "fall from grace" start and why?:-({|=

I for one appreciate you posting these videos. I have a lot to learn myself, no doubt, and it does take guts to put this stuff up there but in the end I think we can all learn a little something. I appreciate the fact that you not only put it up, but your not overly sensitive about the criticisms and remarks. We can all learn something, maybe some new ideas, thoughts, what have you, and in this case.... what NOT to do :-\" lol.... just messin with ya :lol:. Im looking forward to the next installment :-D

t


----------



## Chris Michalek

tracey delin said:


> hey Chris,
> on the dog not being weak, i wasnt implying that, just to be clear. O
> 
> On the "he can track":^o.... so then the BIG question is.... so what happened? Can you figure that out? Where did the big "fall from grace" start and why?:-({|=
> 
> 
> 
> t



The biggest thing I would say is I switched methods, there was a long lay off from April to last week and i went from dirt to grass and from toys to food. Also went from lots of praise and support to starving him and just letting him work on his own.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Here is video from this morning. Sorry for the camera work, I was working alone but it allowed me to try what I think might work.

The dog tracks without purpose so my goal this morning was to create purpose with a ball at the end. I started out with a short play session with the ball to get it wet with Mali juices. Then I layed a short track with mali juiced up tennis ball wiped on the bottom of my shoes and with sardines while he watched. I'm going to fade out sardines/food and just use juicy tennis ball scent in a week or so. I figured he'd get spun over just a tennis ball smell so I opted to use the fish to get the head down behavior. 

I free tracked him. When he got to the ball I marked it and then played with him keeping in mind I didn't want him too worked up or too hot.

Attempt 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLpe0FqaaUQ

After a short play session, I made him platz at the beginning of the track again and we went over the same track with the ball at the end.

Attempt 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV684fhCG7I

After that we played ball and then I threw the frisbee for him.

short frisbee session. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5s31qnX_Jk


----------



## Anne Vaini

Nice disc throwing! You could probably pick up some Shyhoundz Toos & Fetch wins pretty easily with him. :lol:

If you keep doin gthe same, you're going to get him racing at the end of the track. Not a huge problem right NOW, but you'll need to change it up soon. I vote that the toy comes from you - not the track. You'll be behind him, give him that big yes at the end of the track and chuck a toy forward over his head.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Anne Vaini said:


> Nice disc throwing! You could probably pick up some Shyhoundz Toos & Fetch wins pretty easily with him. :lol:
> 
> If you keep doin gthe same, you're going to get him racing at the end of the track. Not a huge problem right NOW, but you'll need to change it up soon. I vote that the toy comes from you - not the track. You'll be behind him, give him that big yes at the end of the track and chuck a toy forward over his head.


All I want right now is for him to understand we are searching for something he likes and he likes Balls. I want to create purpose, I'll work on method/details after the purpose clicks.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Chris Michalek said:


> All I want right now is for him to understand we are searching for something he likes and he likes Balls. I want to create purpose, I'll work on method/details after the purpose clicks.


I don't think you will be waiting very long.


----------



## tracey schneider

much better picture..... I agree you need to get the connection going and the confidence going.... Im not sure if I would have him run the same track as it is now contaminated and you are walking all over it or right next to it so it is not as "clean". Stick to the easy stuff for now. I cant tell if he is skipping food or not, but it seems like he is hunting food and not the steps, again as said by many..... back track. more food in more steps food at the scent pad etc. get that nose down, get the right picture.

Actually if you watch the videos the dog never picks up the ball, he finds it and is rewarded by the ball in his owners hand. Im thinking that if you can get him to down at the ball that would best, as you dont want him arbitrarily looking up at you for the reward, he is already checkin in more than he should. Again just thoughts out loud....

Very much looking forward to his progress.....please keep posting vids.:-D

t

man if I didnt know better, I would think I actually LIKED tracking :-\"
maybe I just like watching OTHER people do it


----------



## Chris Michalek

Finding the ball is all I want. He doesn't know to pick it up but that's easy. The plan is for him to always find a ball and that signals the end of the track. In my mind, I don't need to make it an article so I don't care if the reward comes from my hand or not. I do plan to bury the ball as soon as he understands that's what we're looking for. Downing is too much for him right now anyway. There was lots of food and oil on the track today and he got most of it the first time through and all of it during the 2nd time. 

I wouldn't normally retrack on the same track but I thought to make it about finding the ball more than anything else and re-tracking was an after-thought. I'll do the same thing tomorrow but with two separate tracks. 

When the connection to find the ball and his drive to track comes up, then I'll put effort into getting him going from step to step and then I'll put a line on him.



tracey delin said:


> much better picture..... I agree you need to get the connection going and the confidence going.... Im not sure if I would have him run the same track as it is now contaminated and you are walking all over it or right next to it so it is not as "clean". Stick to the easy stuff for now. I cant tell if he is skipping food or not, but it seems like he is hunting food and not the steps, again as said by many..... back track. more food in more steps food at the scent pad etc. get that nose down, get the right picture.
> 
> Actually if you watch the videos the dog never picks up the ball, he finds it and is rewarded by the ball in his owners hand. Im thinking that if you can get him to down at the ball that would best, as you dont want him arbitrarily looking up at you for the reward, he is already checkin in more than he should. Again just thoughts out loud....
> 
> Very much looking forward to his progress.....please keep posting vids.:-D
> 
> t
> 
> man if I didnt know better, I would think I actually LIKED tracking :-\"
> maybe I just like watching OTHER people do it


----------



## Steve Strom

> The plan is for him to always find a ball and that signals the end of the track.


Are you sure you want him intent on finding the end of the track. He kinda looks like he'd just like to get it over with now.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Steve Strom said:


> Are you sure you want him intent on finding the end of the track. He kinda looks like he'd just like to get it over with now.



whats the problem with that? On trial day, the track will be over before he finds the end. 

We're not tracking for bites but don't you think he should be tracking for something? He doesn't give a shit about food but he does about a ball or a bite, since I can't expect somebody to be waiting with a sleeve a ball it is. 

I was using a tug before but he was getting too spun.

he doesn't look he wants it over with, to me he acts like he doesn't know what I want. What I want is for him to track but he doesn't know what that is. So I can want him to find something he likes, when he makes the connection that he's looking for a ball I think you will see a dog that has a job he is trying to perform.


What's your idea Steve?


----------



## tracey schneider

i always track with a reward or jackpot at the end..... trial day the end doesnt come till we are done with critique and all.

t


----------



## Steve Strom

Chris Michalek said:


> whats the problem with that? On trial day, the track will be over before he finds the end.
> 
> We're not tracking for bites but don't you think he should be tracking for something? He doesn't give a shit about food but he does about a ball or a bite, since I can't expect somebody to be waiting with a sleeve a ball it is.
> 
> I was using a tug before but he was getting too spun.
> 
> he doesn't look he wants it over with, to me he acts like he doesn't know what I want. What I want is for him to track but he doesn't know what that is. So I can want him to find something he likes, when he makes the connection that he's looking for a ball I think you will see a dog that has a job he is trying to perform.
> 
> 
> What's your idea Steve?


I don't think he's tracking at all, I really don't think he's searching,hunting whatever term you want there. He's just walking along and sometimes he finds something. I think giving him that strong reward at the end is only going to make that worse. You should take a break from tracking for a while and then go all the way back to the beginning and stick with a plan that gives him a chance to make that connection between the track itself and the reward. That may need something that he actually doesnt value so highly.

I think the details you want to skip may end up being what causes your problems, jumping around day after day, try this, try that is way off for tracking. Whats that saying about no training is better then bad training or something?


----------



## Steve Strom

tracey delin said:


> i always track with a reward or jackpot at the end..... trial day the end doesnt come till we are done with critique and all.
> 
> t


I could be wrong, I know he's not running the track real fast, but I just think a big reward at the end is only going to teach him to ignore the track that much more.


----------



## tracey schneider

I agree with you it is a risk.... esp since right now he is not making the connection, I also think he needs to go backwards first.... but...... I am going to sit back and watch and see how this evolves. I understand Chris's point in that right now he is just trying to get the motivation to track instilled and then work out the details from there..... Im looking forward to watching this unfold one way or another ....


t


----------



## Alan Fielding

Chris - putting sardine juice/smell on the bottom of your shoes or using the "tennis ball smell" while laying the track is counter-productive in my opinion. You do not want train your dog to track sardines---You do however want him to associate the scent of the disturbed grass/ground with a reward (the sardines) which he will receive if he follows the track.Just sayin ! P.s using a ball at the end of your track is good and relieves the stress of tracking .


----------



## Faisal Khan

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sure it will. He isn't following it. THAT is the problem. Didn't you have that silly advice on teaching the jump ? Maybe we should not listen to internet advice.
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA


Grand Master Jeff-san, I am so sorry to raise doubt against the Keyboard Training Club and giving silly advice after seeing a dog crash the jump repeatedly and getting rewarded. It shall not happen again.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Chris Michalek said:


> When the connection to find the ball and his drive to track comes up, then I'll put effort into getting him going from step to step and then I'll put a line on him.


And then I will start going to the gym and quit smoking and stop peeing in ice machines and never drink again...like a fart hiccup, you're going in reverse.

For a moment there I thought you were an expert.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Chris, what's the general pattern for the food drops in your steps? I can't tell if there's 3-4' distance between the food or if you have it in every step and he's just missing some of it. He eats weird - looks like he's in the process of throwing up sometimes. That observation has nothing to do with anything, I just found it odd that he messes about like that. I couldn't imagine him doing that with every morsel of food he found if food was in every step. You guys would never make it to the end of a 20 foot track at that pace (grin). It really does look like he's hunting food, although there are very brief periods where it looks like he might be tracking. What does his "tracking" look like without food on the track? Not suggesting you track him without food, I'm just wondering if you ever have.

Did you notice that you startled him both times when you shouted YES?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> And then I will start going to the gym and quit smoking and stop peeing in ice machines and never drink again...like a fart hiccup, you're going in reverse.
> 
> For a moment there I thought you were an expert.



I spent a year trying to get him to go step to step. He has motivation on the track. Now I'm going to give him motivation and teach him how the get there the way I want.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Nicole Stark said:


> Chris, what's the general pattern for the food drops in your steps? I can't tell if there's 3-4' distance between the food or if you have it in every step and he's just missing some of it. He eats weird - looks like he's in the process of throwing up sometimes. That observation has nothing to do with anything, I just found it odd that he messes about like that. I couldn't imagine him doing that with every morsel of food he found if food was in every step. You guys would never make it to the end of a 20 foot track at that pace (grin). It really does look like he's hunting food, although there are very brief periods where it looks like he might be tracking. What does his "tracking" look like without food on the track? Not suggesting you track him without food, I'm just wondering if you ever have.
> 
> Did you notice that you startled him both times when you shouted YES?



yes, he wasn't in drive and wasn't expecting the YES. I'm not worried about it.

Tomorrow, I going to do two tracks, one with no food, one with sardines.

I post video tomorrow.


----------



## tracey schneider

I feel like banging my head against the wall... Now why when you're only beginning to see a light would you, after only one day, lay a track with no food???

I don't understand this at all! There are several amazing world level trainers who believe the only time a dog sees no food on a track is the trial and I can't think of one who would say no food on day two!! Something to think about.... 

T


----------



## Chris Michalek

tracey delin said:


> I feel like banging my head against the wall... Now why when you're only beginning to see a light would you, after only one day, lay a track with no food???
> 
> 
> 
> T


because i spent months doing it that way.


----------



## tracey schneider

What do you mean? You spent months with food on the track and it didn't work so now you are going to try something new? If that's the case food on the track was not the issue imo.

T


----------



## Chris Michalek

tracey delin said:


> What do you mean? You spent months with food on the track and it didn't work so now you are going to try something new? If that's the case food on the track was not the issue imo.
> 
> T



started him the traditional way with food and scent pads as a puppy. Did that until last summer because I wasn't getting anywhere. Then I went to articles only no food and he tracked about the same.

i think it's strictly motivational. Before he would track for food at the end. Even when I tracked him from article to article with no food and rewarded him with tugging when he found an article, I would still track to a bowl of food at the end.

Food is not a reward for him.

I think if I get him to understand we are tracking to find a ball with a game of fetch, that will free him up and he leaves with a positive picture rather than something he doesn't care about and isn't fun for him.


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Chris Michalek said:


> started him the traditional way with food and scent pads as a puppy. Did that until last summer because I wasn't getting anywhere. Then I went to articles only no food and he tracked about the same.
> 
> i think it's strictly motivational. Before he would track for food at the end. Even when I tracked him from article to article with no food and rewarded him with tugging when he found an article, I would still track to a bowl of food at the end.
> 
> Food is not a reward for him.
> 
> I think if I get him to understand we are tracking to find a ball with a game of fetch, that will free him up and he leaves with a positive picture rather than something he doesn't care about and isn't fun for him.


Chris- I am trying to stay out of this. I just wanted to give you something to ponder. Hey- it's your dog. You got to do what you think is right for you. 

The problem I see with the toy and the playing is that you are basically tricking him to track but not letting him work through the problems which can take months. I don't track where you track (shit even here we don't like to track if gets near 80' our dogs aren't used to it and it is counterproductive in the teaching phase). The toy (been there done that BTW) is going to cause a whole host of other problems in short order. He will start running down the track air scenting for the toy (great you think) except your dog is soft to corrections, now you are going to want to slow him down and you are going to need to correct him to do that. Then you are back to square one. 

The food will eventually work- you just need to find his CRACK. I am thinking he needs some time off until it cools down. You will be amazed at how much better he will be when he has had some time off.

PS/ LIVERWURST frozen then cut up and refrozen.... Nasty.... but I have yet to see a dog who doesn't go crazy for it. Havok didn't want to eat on the track either but he is a crack head now :grin: he picks up each tid bit.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I am so sorry to raise doubt against the Keyboard Training Club and giving silly advice after seeing a dog crash the jump repeatedly and getting rewarded. It shall not happen again.

Yes, in one training session, you can tell me how the dog is gonna jump for the rest of her life. After all, she was 7 months old, and you could NEVER EVER shape anything else there. What was I thinking ?? I guess since all I do is type at the keyboard, you would know better as you recite some shit someone else told you. 

Got any vids of your dogs working ?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Originally Posted by tracey delin 
I feel like banging my head against the wall... Now why when you're only beginning to see a light would you, after only one day, lay a track with no food???



T
because i spent months doing it that way.


So, the dog is ****ing up. We have that established. We have that you have not tracked him for months, and we have a video of you walking up your dogs ass pissed off. Then, we have you ignoring peoples advice, and just doing whatever the **** you want.

So the dog is just walking along looking for sardines. The ground looks like a bulldozer just ran through, but your dog knows how to track. You need to not feed that dog, or track that dog, and stop worrying about the dog getting spun up, as he is about to quit tracking every other step it looks like. 

Wait like 4 days without food, stop doing the puppy bulldozer stomp, and get a pipe to drop food into, as there is no way as big (fat) as you are you are going to drop food into the track correctly. It will be all over the place.

Use smaller pieces. Stay the **** back off his ass and shut the **** up. If he looks up, you hold him there with the line, and put him back in the truck. Wait 3 more days. Repeat.

Where is Scheiber ? His little Sch ass should be telling you this shit, not the guy who only knows Mondio.

Good God.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> The food will eventually work- you just need to find his CRACK. I am thinking he needs some time off until it cools down. You will be amazed at how much better he will be when he has had some time off.
> 
> PS/ LIVERWURST frozen then cut up and refrozen.... Nasty.... but I have yet to see a dog who doesn't go crazy for it. Havok didn't want to eat on the track either but he is a crack head now :grin: he picks up each tid bit.


He just had several months off and we've been at this since a couple of days before I started this thread.

He won't eat liverwurst. I've tried every meat in the grocery store. 

People said they've never know a dog not to eat green tripe. This one won't.

I know what problems the ball can cause, at least he'll be in a high state of drive and can take a correction that way. 

I'll try liverwurst again just because you mentioned it.

So far the list of things he will eat:
Kibble
Orange Slices
Sardines
Corn Tortillas

We have three dogs that get pills every day, all of the dogs get treats, even with the entire pack of dog getting excited and salivating, he will just stay where he is and watch. Sometimes he hangs with the other dogs in the kitchen and every time we do it, we toss him something which he promptly spits out. Most dog would eat whatever it is just so the other dogs don't get it. 9/10 he'll spit out whatever he is.

The food thing he is craziest for is his kibble and he isn't that nuts over that.


----------



## Chris Michalek

That is the method I started doing this week except I would give him chances, he hasn't eaten out of a bowl for 8 days and his only food has been on that track.

I didn't trench/stomp that area, that's a shallow area where the grass is longer and there is a culvert behind me that keeps a breeze to my back. 

The sardines were larger but I can't get smaller than kibble unless I use crumbs.

I implemented the advice of several people today. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Originally Posted by tracey delin
> I feel like banging my head against the wall... Now why when you're only beginning to see a light would you, after only one day, lay a track with no food???
> 
> 
> 
> T
> because i spent months doing it that way.
> 
> 
> So, the dog is ****ing up. We have that established. We have that you have not tracked him for months, and we have a video of you walking up your dogs ass pissed off. Then, we have you ignoring peoples advice, and just doing whatever the **** you want.
> 
> So the dog is just walking along looking for sardines. The ground looks like a bulldozer just ran through, but your dog knows how to track. You need to not feed that dog, or track that dog, and stop worrying about the dog getting spun up, as he is about to quit tracking every other step it looks like.
> 
> Wait like 4 days without food, stop doing the puppy bulldozer stomp, and get a pipe to drop food into, as there is no way as big (fat) as you are you are going to drop food into the track correctly. It will be all over the place.
> 
> Use smaller pieces. Stay the **** back off his ass and shut the **** up. If he looks up, you hold him there with the line, and put him back in the truck. Wait 3 more days. Repeat.
> 
> Where is Scheiber ? His little Sch ass should be telling you this shit, not the guy who only knows Mondio.
> 
> Good God.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Chris Michalek said:


> That is the method I started doing last week except I would give him chances, he hasn't eaten out of a bowl for 8 days and his only food has been on that track.
> 
> I didn't trench/stomp that area, that's a shallow area where the grass is longer and there is a culvert behind me that keeps a breeze to my back.
> 
> The sardines were larger but I can't get smaller than kibble unless I use crumbs.
> 
> I implemented the advice of several people today.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Originally Posted by tracey delin ;;I
> feel like banging my head against the wall... Now why when you're only beginning to see a light would you, after only one day, lay a track with no food???
> 
> 
> 
> T
> because i spent months doing it that way.
> 
> 
> So, the dog is ***ingg up. We have that established. We have that you have not tracked him for months, and we have a video of you walking up your dogs ass pissed off. Then, we have you ignoring peoples advice, and just doing whatever the **** you want.
> 
> So the dog is just walking along looking for sardines. The ground looks like a bulldozer just ran through, but your dog knows how to track. You need to not feed that dog, or track that dog, and stop worrying about the dog getting spun up, as he is about to quit tracking every other step it looks like.
> 
> Wait like 4 days without food, stop doing the puppy bulldozer stomp, and get a pipe to drop food into, as there is no way as big (fat) as you are you are going to drop food into the track correctly. It will be all over the place.
> 
> Use smaller pieces. Stay the **** back off his ass and shut the **** up. If he looks up, you hold him there with the line, and put him back in the truck. Wait 3 more days. Repeat.
> 
> Where isScheiberr ? His little Sch ass should be telling you this shit, not the guy who only knowsMondioo.
> 
> Good God.


I said to get out and track with his crew or put him up and wait till he comes to Minnesota in a couple of weeks that I'd track every night for 3 weeks if he would like. I think it would be fun to figure him out and send them home up and running with a plan.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Mike Scheiber said:


> I said put him up and wait till he comes to Minnesota in a couple of weeks that I'd track every night for 3 weeks if he would like. I think it would be fun to figure him out and send them home up running with a plan.



I'm planning to meet with Mike but I am also obligated to train with my club. Understand my position, show up for training with a club that is comprised of mostly national or world level schH competitors or tell them I am choose to follow the advise of people from the internet I have never met.

A lot of what has been written resonates with me and I'm going to implement what I can but when a suggestion is made to a person who has put up 100 pt tracks with a Malinois related to mine and he tells me to do what he says first, what choice do I logically have?

This is not a dog that is just starting tracking, I've been working with some of the most experienced and accomplished guys in this area since the dog was 9wks old. The people I train with include the people who own the parents of my dog. They know the lines, they know the parents and they are stumped with my dog. He was started correctly and I rarely tracked alone and never started a new method without somebody else being there to be an extra set of eyes.

I'm not saying its the dog. It likely could be a trust issue with me however the bottom line is, has never shown motivation to track with me or anyone else in the club. His food drive is very low.

I legitimately asked for help from you guys because I know there are a lot more people who know what they are doing more than me. I'm exploring all options and some of the advice has spawned new ideas on this problem as well as new ideas for a solution which is exactly what I wanted.

The dog had a considerable break from tracking for many months and we just started back at it last week. The plan for me and the club is to track the dog until mid Aug unless the heat gets too oppressive. In Aug I have to go to work for a week followed by a week of vacation. My plan is to bring the Malinois with me however, I am getting resistance on three fronts but I am still planning on it.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Definitely bring Xico - I want to meet him!


----------



## Chris Michalek

Anne Vaini said:


> Definitely bring Xico - I want to meet him!


convince my wife. :-D

The biggest issue is my mother suddenly has her two sisters from vietnam at the house an there will be there through labor day. Vietnamese in general don't like dogs as pets so he wouldn't be allowed in my parents house while my Aunts are there.


----------



## Chris Michalek

he did better today. Food at the toe of most footsteps.

Xico tracking 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAuNypRwAk4


This is my rottweiler tracking over a highly contaminated area where lots of dogs play. This track is 24hours old, I laid the track yesterday with lots of food, expecting most of it to be gone this morning and about 90% of it was. He needed help with the aged article at the end but overall, I'm pleased with him. 

Kaiser http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83RqSL37UKY


----------



## Christopher Smith

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm planning to meet with Mike but I am also obligated to train with my club. Understand my position, show up for training with a club that is comprised of mostly national or world level schH competitors or tell them I am choose to follow the advise of people from the internet I have never met.
> 
> A lot of what has been written resonates with me and I'm going to implement what I can but when a suggestion is made to a person who has put up 100 pt tracks with a Malinois related to mine and he tells me to do what he says first, what choice do I logically have?


Your 100% correct Mike. Especially when some of the people on here don't do the sport and were failures when they did. :-\"

What do you think about your Rottie's track? At a championship how many points should a dog that tracks like him get? I'm trying to see how you think about tracking.


----------



## Alan Fielding

Chris- since you are doing Schutzhund why do you insist doing things which are outside the requirements of the program (with the Rottie) . No where does it state in the rules that a track needs to be 24 hours old or with a high degree of "contamination ". This is the way you can turn a good tracker into an un-motivated one. Perhaps Moving your Mali along too fast has contributed to his problems??? Sure you can challenge your dogs with more difficult tracks , but this should be done in a progressive and systematic way and its my opinion that it should always be done within the confines of what is required in the program. Schutzhund tracking is NOT natural for the dog--- this is what makes it difficult (deep nose, consistent pace , constant forward movement )--so why do substantially more then what is required and why do it if your dog is not really ready for it .jmho-


----------



## Keith Jenkins

Alan Fielding said:


> Chris- since you are doing Schutzhund why do you insist doing things which are outside the requirements of the program (with the Rottie) . No where does it state in the rules that a track needs to be 24 hours old or with a high degree of "contamination ". This is the way you can turn a good tracker into an un-motivated one. Perhaps Moving your Mali along too fast has contributed to his problems??? Sure you can challenge your dogs with more difficult tracks , but this should be done in a progressive and systematic way and its my opinion that it should always be done within the confines of what is required in the program. Schutzhund tracking is NOT natural for the dog--- this is what makes it difficult (deep nose, consistent pace , constant forward movement )--so why do substantially more then what is required and why do it if your dog is not really ready for it .jmho-


Now that was a sensible post.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Christopher Smith said:


> Your 100% correct Mike. Especially when some of the people on here don't do the sport and were failures when they did. :-\"
> 
> What do you think about your Rottie's track? At a championship how many points should a dog that tracks like him get? I'm trying to see how you think about tracking.



He does much better with typical tracks but overall isn't my focus. He would score mid to high 80s not counting the article. I was into VST with him for awhile and still dabble with it, he's my play dog because I know he's not a national level critter. I don't do the extreme stuff with the Mali because I want to go as far as I can with him.



@Alan- Honestly, I get bored with schH and am always pushing pushing pushing to satisfy myself...I'm totally guilty of too much too fast but work to temper it, especially with the mali. I'm that way as a person too and if you were to have a listen to my music, you'll find that I have brought my instrument into an area where it has never been before.


----------



## Alan Fielding

Chris- I understand your frustration and perhaps boredom ,but you cannot allow yourself to get bored of something before you have achieved a goal. Schutzhund tracking with a problematic dog or any dog for that matter is Not EASY and there in lies the challenge and therein lies the the reward. Keep pushing yourself in your ability to read your dog , keep a log of each and every track you do, noting conditions , wind direction , food placement , and of course the quality of your dogs track. Learn to and be able to honestly critique your dog and modify your tracking program to what is happening. Many people think Schutzhund is easy and worthless and not a test for a dog until they realize that people who get V scores in tracking have paid their dues with countless hours of training -- especially in tracking.Its about the nuances and precision. Keep Pushing, but push yourself to become more organized, more task oriented, more systematic , remember its not the dog its the teacher.It is up to YOU to find the key to your dogs success and bring forth the best in him.----p.s- stop yelling GOOD! at the end of your track -- your scaring the bejeezes out of your dog ;o)


@Alan- Honestly, I get bored with schH and am always pushing pushing pushing to satisfy myself...I'm totally guilty of too much too fast but work to temper it, especially with the mali. I'm that way as a person too and if you were to have a listen to my music, you'll find that I have brought my instrument into an area where it has never been before.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Christopher Smith

Chris Michalek said:


> He does much better with typical tracks but overall isn't my focus. He would score mid to high 80s not counting the article. I was into VST with him for awhile and still dabble with it, he's my play dog because I know he's not a national level critter. I don't do the extreme stuff with the Mali because I want to go as far as I can with him.


Ok, I think I know what one of the issues is. I don't think that you really know what your final goal should be. Have you seen a lot of national caliber dogs tracking? I think your Rottie might have a hard time breaking 80pts. Keep in mind that I'm only judging him from this one video. Maybe you need to get out watch some dogs that are really good trackers? 

BTW, I find it admirable the way you are dealing with all of the criticism on this tread.;-)


----------



## Chris Michalek

Christopher Smith said:


> Ok, I think I know what one of the issues is. I don't think that you really know what your final goal should be. Have you seen a lot of national caliber dogs tracking? I think your Rottie might have a hard time breaking 80pts. Keep in mind that I'm only judging him from this one video. Maybe you need to get out watch some dogs that are really good trackers?
> 
> BTW, I find it admirable the way you are dealing with all of the criticism on this tread.;-)


Tim thinks the rotties is typically a low to mid 90pt tracker on a good track. He'll track over rocks, changing to dirt over pavement... but this isn't really about the rottie because he's not my focus. He's just a fun dog that tries to do what I want. 


I've never seen a great tracking dog in person.

I can agree with you that I do not have a solid final vision in my head. Do you have vids of what you think are great tracking dogs. BTW- I was told to trust you 100% and I know about you being a judge and all.... I'm all ears and eyes with you.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Christopher Smith said:


> Ok, I think I know what one of the issues is.


Just talked to Tim. You won't have to think about the issues until next weekend when I come to see you, then you'll know what the issue it. 

Looking forward to it.

That said, I'm not going tracking until I see Christopher Smith next weekend so this thread is on hold for two weeks.

I just have the say, there are some great people on this board and it's awesome that so many people are truly willing to help strangers, thanks all that have helped on this thread and with offers or tips in PMs.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm planning to meet with Mike but I am also obligated to train with my club. Understand my position, show up for training with a club that is comprised of mostly national or world level schH competitors or tell them I am choose to follow the advise of people from the internet I have never met.
> And that's why I goof on training dogs on the Internet. I'm still miffed why you and your crew haven't been able to put together a program.
> Any way what I'd prolly do is have you show me how you started when he was a pup and start from there at the basic foundation puppy stuff and move on accordingly using food. The only extreme measure I would prolly use is that ****er will be hungry/starving and I'll tell you how to keep his bile down in him so he ain't sick and stinking things up.
> I cant imagine any thing we would do would mesh with your crew and there will be good discussions before we start, most certainly you need to be mindful and hay maybe you guys will come up with something in the mean time.
> 
> 
> Chris Michalek said:
> 
> 
> 
> convince my wife. :-D
> The biggest issue is my mother suddenly has her two sisters from vietnam at the house an there will be there through labor day. Vietnamese in general don't like dogs as pets so he wouldn't be allowed in my parents house while my Aunts are there.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a very nice empty pro kennel run with a top that should hold a tiger its yours to use if that would make any difference or help matters.
> Lemme know
Click to expand...


----------



## Chris Michalek

Mike Scheiber said:


> Chris Michalek said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a very nice empty pro kennel run with a top that should hold a tiger its yours to use if that would make any difference or help matters.
> Lemme know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> actually, that WOULD make a difference. Let me see what I can do.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> Mike Scheiber said:
> 
> 
> 
> actually, that WOULD make a difference. Let me see what I can do.
> 
> 
> 
> I live on the Minneapolis side of the Mendota bridge by Minnehaha Falls by the VA Hospital and strait east of lake Nokomis 15 minutes from ether downtown if geographies play a part in your decision making.
Click to expand...


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Chris Michalek said:


> Vietnamese in general don't like dogs as pets so he wouldn't be allowed in my parents house while my Aunts are there.


 
Me barbeque you long time Joe...they'll get that.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Me barbeque you long time Joe...they'll get that.


I once asked my mother if she's ever eaten a dog.... "they make good soup." :-o


----------



## Carol Boche

Chris Michalek said:


> I once asked my mother if she's ever eaten a dog.... "they make good soup." :-o


Puppies are supposed to make the best soup according to the Lakota here.....Pow Wows, Sundances and Rodeos going on here now, and puppy soup is a main thing served......


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Carol Boche said:


> Puppies are supposed to make the best soup according to the Lakota here.....Pow Wows, Sundances and Rodeos going on here now, and puppy soup is a main thing served......


And somebody got all over me for saying unborn caribou fetuses were delicious :-({|=

It's all food right ?? like Mcdonalds is any better.


----------



## Chris Michalek

I spent the last couple of days watching and rewatching my recent tracking videos. 

Some of you picked it up of course but now I can clearly see that he's not really tracking most of the time. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAuNypRwAk4

This vid shows the last time I tracked him a couple of days ago. Here's my analysis...

He actually tracks for the first few feet but then starts look ahead for food and stops using his nose at that point he's just walking along picking up the sardines. The positive things is, he TRACKED albeit for 3-4 feet but that means I can go back to 1-2 ft and build from there.

This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to feed from now until tuesday. Then no more food. I'm training with Christopher Smith next weekend for a couple of days. The next time the dog will see food is at the end of a rather short track - maybe 20ft on saturday morning. 

It's going to be 30-50 degrees cooler so we'll have a better situation all around. I'm going to mix a can of sardines with his kibble and then use the juice only to lay a track. I want as easy a track as possible and I want a hard flat surface. I want to put him on as flat a surface as I can find so he can use eyes all he wants but will quickly figure out that he can not see the food ahead and must use his nose to locate it. The food will be buried at the end of the track where he can't see it.



I don't want any distractions so no talking to him. I'm just going to let him figure it out for himself.

Thoughts?


----------



## tracey schneider

Well I'm glad you can see it now, however on your approach... I definitely have "thoughts"...not exactly how I would go lol. With that said, I don't know about anyone else but you have pushed me into exhaustion lol....

Good luck and wait for christpher maybe speaking to someone in person will be a better form of answering questions and communitcating and understanding the overall concept and how to best to move forward.

Keep us posted on your training with christpher, I will curious to see how it goes.

T


----------



## Chris Michalek

I want to hear your thoughts. If you're too exhausted then don't post. I'm making this thread for others to learn from too.


----------



## tracey schneider

I don't think there is anything else that can be said that hasn't. Which is why its turned to eating embryos and what not lol. Folks post really good advice and you ignore it and come back with your own ideas. Only until you watched the video over and over are you finally conceeding to what most of us have been saying all along.

My thoughts? Have patience go back and read this thread several times over and you will find the answers...and wait for christopher. You've already been given sound advice and almost all of it is the same with only slight tweeks. Its all in here already but at the end of the day the best advice really is given by those that can see both you and the dog as they will understand the dynamcis of the situation.

Last comment... Go back to basics, start from scratch, undo what you have done and reprogram both you and the dog. Consistency and clarity is the key to success, start over with a whole new "program" and you will make progress but bouncing around at the level you are will only hold you back.... There's my thoughts...

T


----------



## Tanya Beka

Chris Michalek said:


> I spent the last couple of days watching and rewatching my recent tracking videos.
> 
> Some of you picked it up of course but now I can clearly see that he's not really tracking most of the time.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAuNypRwAk4
> 
> This vid shows the last time I tracked him a couple of days ago. Here's my analysis...
> 
> He actually tracks for the first few feet but then starts look ahead for food and stops using his nose at that point he's just walking along picking up the sardines. The positive things is, he TRACKED albeit for 3-4 feet but that means I can go back to 1-2 ft and build from there.
> 
> This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to feed from now until tuesday. Then no more food. I'm training with Christopher Smith next weekend for a couple of days. The next time the dog will see food is at the end of a rather short track - maybe 20ft on saturday morning.
> 
> It's going to be 30-50 degrees cooler so we'll have a better situation all around. I'm going to mix a can of sardines with his kibble and then use the juice only to lay a track. I want as easy a track as possible and I want a hard flat surface. I want to put him on as flat a surface as I can find so he can use eyes all he wants but will quickly figure out that he can not see the food ahead and must use his nose to locate it. The food will be buried at the end of the track where he can't see it.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want any distractions so no talking to him. I'm just going to let him figure it out for himself.
> 
> Thoughts?


Yes, he is tracking for about 4-5 pieces of food and then he just started looking for food and forgot about his deep nose. Much better!

Personally, if you keep trying this method and it doesn't work after a while, I would totally forget the food. But give it a good go, slowly and methodically and maybe he'll get it.

The reward at the end was good, he got excited! If you can make him connect the track to the reward, slowly and starting with short short tracks, he'll get it.

On a side note, you may have been too rough with him in the past - he jumped at one point wondering if you were going to correct him for something. This can be repaired, but will take time and lots of bonding and positive training - if you take it a bit easier on him, you may see his "drive" to track increase.

ANd this has been a good thread, I think you have learned a lot both professionally and personally - sopmetimes it takes a lot of criticism before we can shake it off and figure it out. Most people don't take the criticism as well as you did and they get all defensive and give up. You did great!  Keep it up! We will all learn from your progress.


----------



## Chris Michalek

tracey delin said:


> Folks post really good advice and you ignore it and come back with your own ideas. Only until you watched the video over and over are you finally conceeding to what most of us have been saying all along.
> 
> 
> T


um... I don't mean to be so defensive here but I don't know any of you. Only an idiot would blindly follow people they don't know and not take the time to figure things out themselves. Allow me to take your example to my world of harmonica and music. If I had blindly followed the advice of others on the internet or books, I wouldn't be the musician I am today. I would have become average like the other millions of people who stick a harmonica in their mouth. In the harmonica world I am acknowledged for being one of the few at the top. I have redefined my instrument and play music that others have never thought possible. I even have fans, and people who spend hours trying to play like me... it's weird but its part of what I have put out there. My skills don't come from following others, it came from deconstructing everything, figuring things out for myself and applying it through hard work, consistency while having an open mind and being ready to change if necessary. 

I'm no dog expert but my way of doing things have made me a world renowned expert in my small and rather obscure musical world. I know what works for me, I know the best way to learn for myself and I know how to climb to the top and that is not by following blindly people, methods and systems I do not know. 

That said, I have read this thread several times and digested what I can, I have catalogued everything that people said, I continue to research all methods as well as the people who gave the advice. The bottom line is, I am the trainer of this dog and for me to make him the best that he can be, I have to be the best that I can be so I need do things in a way that works for me.


----------



## Chris Michalek

I forgot to mention, thank you to all who have contributed. I have learned a lot from you guys.

I posted this videos because I wanted help and expected to learn. How can I be defensive about something I do not know well? I think too many people post videos because they think they are good and then get offended when they are shown the truth. This thread is not me showing off, it's about me learning in real time and for others that are too shy to expose themselves to learn from. 

So the dog may not be ready to trial when I wish, but when he's ready, those of you who have helped can feel proud if I do well because it was partly because of this board.


----------



## tracey schneider

I am very much the same way, I have to figure it out on my own and did that with my first dog from the day he was born (I bred him). When we had tracking issues or whatever and we definitley did I took some time off a week or two sorted it out and tried to understand where I had failed to communicate with him and went from there. I honestly think it is the BEST way to learn and many a times we started over and reprogrammed. I had to work it out by reading my dog and myself and understand where I failed as a trainer/ handler so I understand what you are saying but YOU are the one asking these people you don't know for advice in the first place?? If everyone was saying completely different things that is one thing but the majority are not....at first there was focus on toys as you said he wouldnt eat sardines or anything as you had tried everything. Posted a video and what do you know he is eating sardines now. From there most of us have been saying the same thing with only slight variances.

I stick to waiting for someone to help in person. The best advice I ever got was at a tracking seminar because she could SEE exactly where I was failing. My food was too big and I reused my own articles over and over. No one online could ever tell me that as they couldn't SEE it... Not that I ever asked mind you lol. 

Maybe make a points list by each person, write it down, and then maybe it will jump out at you. Its hard to follow when its all mixed in but if you read straight through one persons responses at a time,... Maybe you will see the similarities.

T


----------



## Guest

http://ventosakennel.com/about_us

This is a link to Ventosa Kennel, owned and operated by Tracy Bowling. He just released this book on tracking that I have to say is the most comprehensive and thorough book on tracking I have ever read. For the novice or the professional it covers everything. 

Selection testing tracking dog candidates, hard surface, bloodhounds, GSD, Mals, articles, and the list goes on...

Even for the sport tracker, this book will give you some tools to look out for in selections and training for better success.

A friend of mine from this forum sent it to me and by far one of the best reads in a long time!


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Geezuz...17 pages and all I know for sure is that Chris can't train a dog to track if his life depended on it


----------



## Chris Michalek

tracey delin said:


> YOU are the one asking these people you don't know for advice in the first place??
> T



Like reading a ton of books on the same subject. Read, digest, make a plan and move forward. Right?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Geezuz...17 pages and all I know for sure is that Chris can't train a dog to track if his life depended on it



I will make you eat those words and then shove a whole ****ing box of twinkies up your ass. How do you like them apples?


----------



## Steve Strom

I'm really curious to hear if he thinks you should go back to beginning stuff, or if it's something to just work through. If that makes sense.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Chris Michalek said:


> I will make you eat those words and then shove a whole ****ing box of twinkies up your ass. How do you like them apples?


 
If you are succesfull, which I hope you are..could you please grease those twinkies ??


----------



## tracey schneider

Chris Michalek said:


> Like reading a ton of books on the same subject. Read, digest, make a plan and move forward. Right?


I guess so? Idk I never read any books, did any seminars until we were a III, and I'm just now watching my first videos and he has been retired a few years. I did talk to folks at training to get some broad ideas and then I would go back to my own dog and our unique issues and disect. I had some group support but really was a stubborn goat and wanted to do as much on my own as possible...its how I learn and it was a personal goal. So I get where u are coming from. I don't think you can find the answers in any book because I personally don't think this is all on the dog and its a combo of things going down that need adjustment

T


----------



## tracey schneider

Chris Michalek said:


> Like reading a ton of books on the same subject. Read, digest, make a plan and move forward. Right?


I guess so? Idk I never read any books, did any seminars until we were a III, and I'm just now watching my first videos and he has been retired a few years. I did talk to folks at training to get some broad ideas and then I would go back to my own dog and our unique issues and disect. I had some group support but really was a stubborn goat and wanted to do as much on my own as possible...its how I learn and it was a personal goal. So I get where u are coming from. I don't think you can find the answers in any book because I personally don't think this is all on the dog and its a combo of things going down that need adjustment
I think you can get the gist of the issues but without being ther seeing it all go down in person, pieces are missing.

By the way our first track was a gift in the low 70s maybe even 70 lol and Bob G was like "someone needs to teach you how to lay a track" and right there quickly he taught me foot placement. I'm sure he doesn't even remember this moment but I always will. Our next trial a few months later was a championship 95 pts. It was one of my most special moments in trainin/ trialing, but the help came from seeing where I was going bad not by any ideas from those not being there.

T


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## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you are succesfull, which I hope you are..could you please grease those twinkies ??



I suppose, after all, Vlad greased his stakes but then again twinkies are pretty damn greasy by themselves


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## Gillian Schuler

Alan Fielding said:


> My own dog was not food oriented either, took him about three days of no food before the food rewards on the track were important enough for him to use his nose to find them . I personally do not like to up the ante too much in the choice of "bait " on the track. I use his dog cookies broken in small pieces . He relates these with a reward because that is what I always use as a reward. Remember that proper tracking is not about the bait you use but the ability to discern a certain scent and follow it. The bait on the track is a means to an end. Remember on trial day there is no bait. The dog must make the connection that the scent of the track will at some point lead to a reward. Chris, you say your dog can track, I did not see this in your video . There is NO commitment to the task at hand. I would "manufacture" food drive and then commence tracking with short , well stamped in tracks under good weather conditions. There is no sense in tracking a inexperienced dog in difficult conditions . You begin with small victories under good conditions and when the dog shows he is capable you move forward and make it more difficult. By tracking in very hot weather you are predisposing your dog to failure and boredom rather then establishing a "joy for the work" or as I like to say a positive work ethic. The best trackers do it because the like it. Other posts mentioning a routine is also very important-- my dog "knows" he is tracking as soon as I snap on his long tracking line.


Did you not only read this - but understood it???

I actually "ruined" my first Schutzhund dog for tracking. I knew a lot about tracking from reading and watching others and could even help others teach their dogs to track. We got our IPO 3 a number of times and had his tracking been better we would have had 3 x 90 and over but what we made good on the OB and Protection, we lost on the fields! I guess I really de-motivated that dog.

You say you know top Schutzhund competitors? Get one to go tracking with you and be at your side all the way - he can tell you quietly by reading the dog what it is doing and it will calm you down and maybe get you to realise it's not the dog it's YOU. Maybe you progressed too quickly, thereby confusing and stressing the dog. 

You can also walk by the side of him when he tracks with his dog and he can relate to you how the dog is is tracking. You can read all the books you want but if you are not prepared to change your views such as the "the dog can track" and start him off again slowly, I see no hope.

All dogs can track - if you let them


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## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> Did you not only read this - but understood it???
> 
> 
> 
> You say you know top Schutzhund competitors? Get one to go tracking with you and be at your side all the way - he can tell you quietly by reading the dog what it is doing and it will calm you down and maybe get you to realise it's not the dog it's YOU. Maybe you progressed too quickly, thereby confusing and stressing the dog.


Gillian darlin' I mentioned before, I typically do not and never have tracked alone. The guy holding the camera knows far more than me and he's a national level competitor. I mostly follow his advice.

Yes, I read everything... I want to make the track as simple as possible and I want to get him away from using his eyes didn't I already


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## Howard Knauf

Chris,

Do you lay your own tracks exclusively? Have you tried a different track layer? Do you have a family member that your dog is well acquainted with that could lay a track for you, stay hidden, then reward?

Since you lay your own track...have you had another handler work the dog while it tracks you for real? Just looking for a different motivator here since you've tried everything else.

Howard


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## Chris Michalek

Howard Knauf said:


> Chris,
> 
> Do you lay your own tracks exclusively? Have you tried a different track layer? Do you have a family member that your dog is well acquainted with that could lay a track for you, stay hidden, then reward?
> 
> Since you lay your own track...have you had another handler work the dog while it tracks you for real? Just looking for a different motivator here since you've tried everything else.
> 
> Howard



only when he was a puppy <16mo we did scent pads with different people but I've never had him handled by somebody else to find me. 

I like that idea. Thank you Howard.


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## Howard Knauf

It's commonly known as "Daddy Tracks". It's a basic idea but can be effective. After all, you are laying a track for him to find, yet there you are holding the leash. Food is not a motivator, but interaction with you is. If the bond is good, he should be plenty motivated to find you. A second party that is not emotionally attatched to the dog may handle the line in a more clear manner for the dog to understand. A minor correction from you means something to him. Any minor correction, or harness pressure from a stranger would possibly be ignored and build his desire to find you.

If it works, great. The only problem is motivating him to find a stranger's track later.

Howard


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## Gillian Schuler

Chris darlin' - the chap holding the camera cannot help you - cannot take the line himself if need be!

I c u r 2 ys 4 me - that's what's wrong here!

Even if someone does take the line and work the dog himself as Howard K suggests, you still have to do it yourself at one point - hence someone (without camera) walking quietly by your side, telling you how to react.

But........ you seem to know it all as usual... as Gerry says 17 pages and you still don't get it! Sorry - I'm pissed off but you really take the cake here!


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## Chris Michalek

you have no idea what happens before and after the camera. Perhaps what you see is what I've been told to do. Just consider that.

Have you watched the Balabaov DVDs? Lots of people assume thats the way he trains and until you train with him person, you'd never know how many times he gives a karate chop to the neck of his dog for compliance. 

There are more things going on than has been explained by me and the videos.


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## Gillian Schuler

Why so defensive? All of us tried to help?

When I "ruined" my dog, I learned from it and moved on!

First of all though, you have to admit you don't know f'all about tracking and then you can begin to learn! If you don't want advice then don't post!!!!

The facts from 17 pages speak for themselves.


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## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why so defensive? All of us tried to help?



Because I've explained myself a few times. 

I've acknowledged the help what more is there to do? Other than think things through? 



The mal isn't going to get ruined until next week so please chill out.


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## Gillian Schuler

:lol: :lol: :lol:

When I said I "ruined" my dog, I did get him through IPO 3, though!!! I would have preferred better results in tracking from him but I didn't teach him better.

I think it's you that needs to chill out - I'm happy enough with my tracking results today.

They say it needs a "big man" to acknowledge his faults but maybe "little women" can do so, too!

Pity you take things the way you do.


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## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Pity you take things the way you do.



this is because of Maggie and the flippers isn't it?

Look, I once was an IPO3 person too and I was ruint by the wimmins.


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## Gillian Schuler

Maggie and flippers. Sure it is you bit nutcase 

Just because I think you are a total nerd in tracking and learning about it doesn't mean I doesn't luv you anyway!!


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## Gillian Schuler

Chris Michalek said:


> this is because of Maggie and the flippers isn't it?
> 
> Look, I once was an IPO3 person too and I was ruint by the wimmins.


you's a done IPO 3???


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## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> this is because of Maggie and the flippers isn't it?
> 
> Look, I once was an IPO3 person too and I was ruint by the wimmins.


That's what I reckon Chris....tell her to get lost or get her own ones ! Oh..and flippers too!

And just relax Gillian...he says he's not going to ruin the mal some more until next week!


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## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> you's a done IPO 3???



I have been titled to IPO3 

That's International Pisser Offer to you dirty mistreating git.


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## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> I have been titled to IPO3
> 
> That's International Pisser Offer to you dirty mistreating git.


That's the spirit .


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## Chris Michalek

just to reiterate Gillian, I'm not doing anything with the dog. I'm going to train with Christopher Smith next weekend and hopefully he'll help me with tracking. Since I've more or less have been using the starvation method, I'm not going to feed him a lick of food starting on tuesday. By sat, the dog should be pretty damn food motivated and Chris can help me work with the dog in that state, unless of course he has other ideas. He's been talking to one of my training friends who I am sure has told him about the level of food motivation this mal has. I see no point in going to somebody for help when I'm not in a situation to immediately implement the methods. Right or Wrong that's what makes sense to me.

Of course if Chris tells me something different between now and then, I will heed his advice because he's a "known" person to me and I know I can trust him.


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## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> That's the spirit .



yeah huh? 

Learned that one from the Wimmins.


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## Howard Knauf

I understand what Gillian is saying about you ultimately holding the leash. What I'm saying is that sometimes a person needs to see for himself that the dog can do what you want. The fact that someone else is working him doesn't matter. What matters is the confidence and attitude you can gain by seeing first hand the dog doing good. That new found attitude could be a game changer, or a viable training tool. Sometimes thats all it takes. A quick daddy track in your spare time before seeing Chris is not going to hurt a thing. It can be done without a whole lot of planning, starving the dog or dealing with messy food. It will be one variable you can either discount, or use. Just sayin'


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## Gillian Schuler

I's not reading what you's doing.

I only want to see results!!!!


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## Chris Michalek

Howard Knauf said:


> I understand what Gillian is saying about you ultimately holding the leash. What I'm saying is that sometimes a person needs to see for himself that the dog can do what you want. The fact that someone else is working him doesn't matter. What matters is the confidence and attitude you can gain by seeing first hand the dog doing good. That new found attitude could be a game changer, or a viable training tool. Sometimes thats all it takes. A quick daddy track in your spare time before seeing Chris is not going to hurt a thing. It can be done without a whole lot of planning, starving the dog or dealing with messy food. It will be one variable you can either discount, or use. Just sayin'



I'll see what I can do Howard. I wasn't planning on tracking with anybody this week and if we're going to do it, it's got to be at 5-5:30am which isn't something most people enjoy. 

The club isn't meeting today because of the extreme heat, hopefully we'll meet tomorrow.


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## Gillian Schuler

Howard Knauf said:


> I understand what Gillian is saying about you ultimately holding the leash. What I'm saying is that sometimes a person needs to see for himself that the dog can do what you want. The fact that someone else is working him doesn't matter. What matters is the confidence and attitude you can gain by seeing first hand the dog doing good. That new found attitude could be a game changer, or a viable training tool. Sometimes thats all it takes. A quick daddy track in your spare time before seeing Chris is not going to hurt a thing. It can be done without a whole lot of planning, starving the dog or dealing with messy food. It will be one variae you can either discount, or use. Just sayin'


That would be a good thing Howard - I fully agree - just don't think Chris is up to it yet but who knows!

I also don't think the dog needs to be starved - I think - like I think you do - that in this way, the dog knows it's allowed to track. If the dog tracks, Chris can see why it does!


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## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> I's not reading what you's doing.
> 
> I only want to see results!!!!



The results are that I've been trained to be a moody SOB that can play the shit out of the harmonica and can't do much else.


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## Howard Knauf

Gillian Schuler said:


> I also don't think the dog needs to be starved - I think - like I think you do - that in this way, the dog knows it's allowed to track. If the dog tracks, Chris can see why it does!


 I don't use food for tracking. Starving a dog to track IMO only teaches it to track to sustain life. What happens if he's not hungry, or feeling ill, or something else over rides his drive to hunt food?


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## Gillian Schuler

I reckoned - guess you owe us a solo in Zofingen Jazz Club Switzerland??? heh!


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## Chris Michalek

Howard Knauf said:


> I don't use food for tracking. Starving a dog to track IMO only teaches it to track to sustain life. What happens if he's not hungry, or feeling ill, or something else over rides his drive to hunt food?


how do you create the head down and deep nose in every footprint without food?


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## Gillian Schuler

Howard, a lot don't use food for tracking here - we have a lot of dogs that track to track, i.e. are tracking because they love tracking.

I use it because I'm not as good as my dog is, i.e. it lets me know where he is on the track


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## Howard Knauf

Aged tracks I assume......or a long pole connected to the collar:twisted:


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## Gillian Schuler

Chris Michalek said:


> how do you create the head down and deep nose in every footprint without food?


The track is mostly enough for the dog! But not for the handler!


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## Howard Knauf

Gillian Schuler said:


> Howard, a lot don't use food for tracking here - we have a lot of dogs that track to track, i.e. are tracking because they love tracking.
> 
> I use it because I'm not as good as my dog is, i.e. it lets me know where he is on the track


 Now you're being modest8) 

My GSD, RJ loves tracking....and he's only had 4 formal sessions. It's all natural to him, just like his dad. If I'd get off my ass I could probably title him in that at least. My problem is I find sport tracking boring and tedious. His tracking training (what little there has been) is fast tracking/trailing. He'll track a squirrel that walked down the street an hour before I let him out. Sometimes I just look at him and shake my head. A total natural.


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## Gillian Schuler

Howard,

I have 2 natural trackers - it's just getting them from tracking as they like it to sports standard. 

The older one tracks along the asphalt in the morning for all he's worth - but who know where he'd lead me? To the next "beiz" (pub) most likely!!

Sometimes it's frustrating to have dogs like this but not to be able to let them just do it. I must get Toni to walk through our little village to the wood and hide and see what happens.

There's so much you can do with a dog without competitions to see what its worth.


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## Chris Michalek

I don't think the Mal is a natural tracker. The rottie most definitely is which is why I got into VST with him a couple of year ago when club training was sparse due to hurt helpers.


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## Gillian Schuler

I've seen some really good tracking from Malinois. At one time the GSD was the leader but the Malinois are catching up. I'm not saying they're better than the GSDs on an average but they are not to be overlooked!

All dogs can track - it's the person holding the lead that hampers success as a rule!!


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## Chris Michalek

my mali's mama isn't known to be a great tracker but his daddy has put up a 100pt track.


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## Howard Knauf

Gillian Schuler said:


> The older one tracks along the asphalt in the morning for all he's worth - but who know where he'd lead me? To the next "beiz" (pub) most likely!!
> .


 Right??? RJ gets on an odor on hard surface and when he's done there's sand stuck to his nose. Same thing in the grass.

Ref your quote about all dogs being trackers.....so true. The human element usually queers the deal.


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## Christopher Smith

Howard Knauf said:


> My GSD, RJ loves tracking....


And what kind of scores have you been getting with RJ?


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## Alan Fielding

[QUOTE=Howard Knauf;205702]I don't use food for tracking. Starving a dog to track IMO only teaches it to track to sustain life. What happens if he's not hungry, or feeling ill, or something else over rides his drive to hunt food?[/QUOTE]

In my opinion there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of Schutzhund style tracking and subsequently the methodology by which this trained . This type of tracking has no real purpose in the real world and it is not analogous to Sar tracking or police style tracking or really any other type of tracking . It is in fact specific to the sport of Schutzhund. The dog is trained in a very specific manner , usually with the use of food reward to follow a track of disturbed ground/grass in a very specific way. The use of food reward is used initially to achieve the deep nose, constant forward motion at a even pace (not fast), extreme accuracy/ concentration and total commitment to the track.The dog is not supposed to follow a "food trail" nor his he following the actual scent of a person . It therefore does not matter in reality who lays the track. The reason that in training the handler will lay his own track is not so much for the benefit of the dog but more so to the benefit of the handler. In order to achieve the accuracy required the handler must know where his track is so that he may be able to properly correct the dog to achieve the specific tracking style of Schutzhund. Knowing ( by the handler) where the track is crucial in the learning process of the dog . The placement Food on the track is analogous to teaching your dog obedience - at first you require the dogs attention for 1 or 2 steps and then reward with a food reward or a tug . This is gradually extended until the dog can go long distances with complete attention . It is in no different in teaching a dog Schutzhund tracking. The placement of food on the track represents a reward for tracking properly. This is why it is important to either have or "manufacture" food drive in the initial learning phases of Schutzhund style tracking . It is of course much easier to lay the foundation for Schutzhund tracking at a very early age when the food drive is naturally the strongest. 
Additionally, this does not mean that the dog will not track once he is trained unless he is starving. It is hoped that with proper and systematic training the dog will develop a work ethic toward the track. Schutzhund critiques and scores the WAY the dog tracks . In many other tracking venues or in real life scenarios a successful track in not evaluated on the basis of the WAY the dog got to the the goal but merely that he got there. 
I do not profess by any stretch of my imagination that I am an "Expert" in Schutzhund tracking but this is what I have learned through various sources. Perhaps I have got it all wrong????


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## Phil Dodson

Exactly Gillian which is why I track my teams (off) the lead or when starting initial tracking (PSD), I pay absolutely (NO) attention to wind direction either. He knows how, so just let him lead us there to the quarry!!


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## Christopher Smith

Alan Fielding said:


> I do not profess by any stretch of my imagination that I am an "Expert" in Schutzhund tracking but this is what I have learned through various sources. Perhaps I have got it all wrong????


Alan that was a really good post and I agree with almost everything. 

I do think that there is discrimination of human scent used in the sport though. Ideally a dog should not have to do this until the FH but even in a normal club trial there are often cross tracks that the dog needs to work out and other items on the track that he needs to not indicate.


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## Donna DeYoung

great post Alan. I happen to be working on tracking this week w/ my 3 yr old GSD. She was started on scent pads and short tracks. We are advancing to longer tracks and fewer food rewards, and Im' beginning to teach w/ articles off track. I work her in evening and make her track for her dinner. She has picked up on tracking very easily.

My question is about dirt and dry grass. That's all I have to train on at my place. I noticed last night she was getting about 7 inches away from the track (downwind I think) in some places, like in a slight arc away from the track, but would keep going and end up back on track. Should I have corrected her for this? slowed her down? was she able to smell the disturbed ground on the wind? she still had her nose pretty low.Sometimes she would also pass up the food treats and then stop, half turn around, to find them. I wonder if that means she is intensely following the disturbed ground and forgetting that treats are out there? Or I'm not placing them in my footsteps (probably!)

thanks,


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## Howard Knauf

Christopher Smith said:


> And what kind of scores have you been getting with RJ?


 If you read my previous post you'd know.


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## Howard Knauf

Christopher Smith said:


> Alan that was a really good post and I agree with almost everything.
> 
> I do think that there is discrimination of human scent used in the sport though. Ideally a dog should not have to do this until the FH but even in a normal club trial there are often cross tracks that the dog needs to work out and other items on the track that he needs to not indicate.



I couldn't agree more. The dog is going to get a scent picture that includes human odor no matter how bad you want to believe that Sch style tracking is sport specific and not geared to include human scent in it's philosophy.

Other than that....Good post Alan.

Howard


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## Mike Scheiber

Christopher Smith said:


> Alan that was a really good post and I agree with almost everything.
> 
> I do think that there is discrimination of human scent used in the sport though. Ideally a dog should not have to do this until the FH but even in a normal club trial there are often cross tracks that the dog needs to work out and other items on the track that he needs to not indicate.


Yes it was a excellent post. 
To proof my dog on distractions I try and toss every thing imaginable with in reason at him Ive tracked him through geese, deer beds, fox dens, thunder, lightning, rain, sprinklers, gauntlet of sprinklers, squirt guns, empty pop bottles, jingling fur savers, cross tracks from various wild life cross tracks from my self crosstracks from other people, cross tracks from dogs, when he was little I had a crow eating the food in the foot steps in front of us, through all of this he must track.



Howard Knauf said:


> I couldn't agree more. The dog is going to get a scent picture that includes human odor no matter how bad you want to believe that Sch style tracking is sport specific and not geared to include human scent in it's philosophy.
> 
> Other than that....Good post Alan.
> 
> 
> Howard


Howard the way I train my dog to the final product [like there is one :lol:] it don't matter what the dog smells he must disregard every thing other than the track/disturbance put in front of him it dont matter who put the track/disturbance there when I take him to the start and say "such" he puts his nose in the sent pad and he goes like hes on a rail to the end. Heres a example of some thing I may try to proof my dog further if things are getting stale to try and keep my dog on his toes. Say I'm aging a track for a hour I'll go and cross my track after it being down for a 1/2 hour Ill mark it so know exactly ware I crossed ether by land mark or I'll toss a marker off to the side when I run the track my dog should disregard ware I crossed and not even notice ware I crossed I'll allow a head check at the very most but that's it when hes solid on this lesson he prolly wont even head check. Its a long slow and careful process that many a handler have over did it and screwed up there great dogs I'm literally approaching walking behind this dog the hundred mile mark and loving every mile of it he is fun.
The one place my dog has the most trouble tracking is sod the longer its aged the better. I think the secondary from the disturbance is really strong and dissipate slowly He has lots of troubles on soccer fields that have been played on the night before and we track the next morning.
Sent is sort of strange all his puppy foundation has been done on lawns/sod and is ware I do most of my track training.
I'll add I do not use electric on my tracking not this dog every thing else yes.


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## Howard Knauf

Mike Scheiber said:


> Howard the way I train my dog to the final product [like there is one :lol:] it don't matter what the dog smells he must disregard every thing other than the track/disturbance put in front of him it dont matter who put the track/disturbance there when I take him to the start and say "such" he puts his nose in the sent pad and he goes like hes on a rail to the end. .


Mike,

With all due respect....you cannot guarantee what odor the dog is using when he tracks. You cannot confirm he's ignoring certain odors in the scent picture. Your example of the cross track may seem logical to you, but here's how I see it...

The way you are "teaching" your dog to track is that once he starts on a particularly aged track, he must stay on it. No mystery there. He's to ignore fresher, or older tracks. I commend you on being successful here, even with the distractors.

I don't teach sport/FST techniques for the most part. I teach dogs to hit the freshest odor encountered at a crime scene. Through training, the dog is taught to ignore cross tracks (just like yours) and discriminate tracks to the particular person we are seeking. I've proofed my dog on a singular track that was joined by four other persons who then peeled off one at a time...on asphalt.

I've also taught my dogs to backtract...that is, following a track to the WEAKENING odor. This had proven key to learning the specifics of the crime, recovering stolen property, discovery of other crimes which would have been found later (subsequently charging the original suspect), or to find a lost childs' home. It is a valuable tool and a lot of cops dont train this way because it's more work, and time.

Dogs will take the path of least resistance. If adding human odor to the scent picture makes it easier for them, that is what they'll do....and there's nothing you can do about it cause they aint tellin.


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## Mike Scheiber

Howard Knauf said:


> Mike,
> 
> With all due respect....you cannot guarantee what odor the dog is using when he tracks. You cannot confirm he's ignoring certain odors in the scent picture. Your example of the cross track may seem logical to you, but here's how I see it...
> 
> The way you are "teaching" your dog to track is that once he starts on a particularly aged track, he must stay on it. No mystery there. He's to ignore fresher, or older tracks. I commend you on being successful here, even with the distractors.
> 
> I don't teach sport/FST techniques for the most part. I teach dogs to hit the freshest odor encountered at a crime scene. Through training, the dog is taught to ignore cross tracks (just like yours) and discriminate tracks to the particular person we are seeking. I've proofed my dog on a singular track that was joined by four other persons who then peeled off one at a time...on asphalt.
> 
> I've also taught my dogs to backtract...that is, following a track to the WEAKENING odor. This had proven key to learning the specifics of the crime, recovering stolen property, discovery of other crimes which would have been found later (subsequently charging the original suspect), or to find a lost childs' home. It is a valuable tool and a lot of cops dont train this way because it's more work, and time.
> 
> Dogs will take the path of least resistance. If adding human odor to the scent picture makes it easier for them, that is what they'll do....and there's nothing you can do about it cause they aint tellin.


:lol: "they aint tellen" and worse I'd be prolly to stupid and stubborn to listen even if they did.
It sounds like your having fun and better yet some nice success.


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## Howard Knauf

Stubborn, I believe. Stupid...never. Like anything else, there's always a gazillion ways to look at things. My teeth were cut on one type of tracking training....yours on another. The end result is what counts. To me...dogs are dogs, therefore IMO they all work the same way; there are just different ways to get the desired results. 

To me, if I can use a dogs' natural tendancies to be as efficient as possible, then I will. I'd hate to suppress a tool out of a dogs' repetoir for the sake of a philosophy. Then again...I don't care about a deep nose or anything else that drives sport dog tracking. In my mind you track to find the man...not food, not critters (except hunters), not cars across a field. If a man is laying the track, thats what I expect my dog to find.

There...now I'm being stubborn.:mrgreen:


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## Mike Scheiber

Howard Knauf said:


> Stubborn, I believe. Stupid...never. Like anything else, there's always a gazillion ways to look at things. My teeth were cut on one type of tracking training....yours on another. The end result is what counts. To me...dogs are dogs, therefore IMO they all work the same way; there are just different ways to get the desired results.
> 
> To me, if I can use a dogs' natural tendancies to be as efficient as possible, then I will. I'd hate to suppress a tool out of a dogs' repetoir for the sake of a philosophy. Then again...I don't care about a deep nose or anything else that drives sport dog tracking. In my mind you track to find the man...not food, not critters (except hunters), not cars across a field. If a man is laying the track, thats what I expect my dog to find.
> 
> There...now I'm being stubborn.:mrgreen:


I tried to change my post and get rid of the stupid to late.:lol:
I wanted to add our dogs are talking if you study and watch and like you said use there natural tendencies to manipulate and train that's talking


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## Chris Michalek

He TRACKS!!! 

if you're wondering why I don't blindly follow what people have to say on the internet about dog training it's because most people are wrong and in this case most you were all wrong in your assessments. Lots of great ideas, I picked what resonated with me and came up with the Chris solution.

He's nailing corners and doing it well.

Thanks everyone for your help and ideas.


----------



## Joby Becker

Chris Michalek said:


> He TRACKS!!!
> 
> if you're wondering why I don't blindly follow what people have to say on the internet about dog training it's because most people are wrong and in this case most you were all wrong in your assessments. Lots of great ideas, I picked what resonated with me and came up with the Chris solution.
> 
> He's nailing corners and doing it well.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your help and ideas.


well share this chris solution please...only fair after all the posts trying to help ya...


----------



## Chris Michalek

I simply sat down with him and told him that he's going to track or he stays in his crate.


----------



## Chris Michalek

tracking video over the weekend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csheom2_RBs

You all saw the first one from a couple of weeks ago, compare it to this one, night and day difference!


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> I simply sat down with him and told him that he's going to track or he stays in his crate.


I see ribs I think understands


----------



## Howard Knauf

Chris,

How bout giving us a clue as to what you did. That we we know who was right/wrong for this particular issue. It's only fair after 20 something pages on a thread designed to try and help you with a problem.


----------



## Joel Heffsen

I am confused. Pardon my ignorance. I thought Chris already told us what he did in talking to his dog then showed us the results through video? What more is there to know?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Howard Knauf said:


> Chris,
> 
> How bout giving us a clue as to what you did. That we we know who was right/wrong for this particular issue. It's only fair after 20 something pages on a thread designed to try and help you with a problem.



I didn't feed him for a few days.

Put him in a foreign crate that was uncomfortable to be in, he couldn't stand or hardly turn around. Told him to track. He made the choice to eat and not **** around over being in the crate. If he didn't track back into the crate.

Now he has that OH **** better get some food because that create sucks attitude. He's driving into the track enough that I can actually put tension the leash, in the past it would **** him up and make him quit.

Christopher Smith also gave me his theories behind tracking. Smith is a bomb ass trainer and one of the more impressive dogmen I have met.


----------



## Candy Eggert

Chris Michalek said:


> He TRACKS!!!
> 
> if you're wondering why I don't blindly follow what people have to say on the internet about dog training it's because most people are wrong and in this case most you were all wrong in your assessments..


 [-X Pretty smug attitude considering. I'm sure people will less inclined to help on your next drama.

@ Chris Smith, good on ya :smile:


----------



## Chris Michalek

Candy Eggert said:


> [-X Pretty smug attitude considering. I'm sure people will less inclined to help on your next drama.
> 
> @ Chris Smith, good on ya :smile:



Smug? Wrong is wrong and so many were yelling at me for not blindly following their advice. I did what I said, I read everything everybody had to say, deconstructed it and did what I thought was best. 

There were many good tidbits from many people. The post was meant for those that talked shit when they can't train a puppy to jump a hurdle or were flat out wrong and continued to yell at me for not following their advice. 

The point is, boards like this can be helpful but only a fool would blindly follow internet advice from people they don't know. I wasn't trying to be smug, I was simply stating that many of the helpful were wrong.

The best advice I got were from the people who sent me private emails and they know who they are. 

I absolutely appreciate what everybody had to offer because know right AND wrong makes correct.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Joel Heffsen said:


> I am confused. Pardon my ignorance. I thought Chris already told us what he did in talking to his dog then showed us the results through video? What more is there to know?


Not a thing. Wonder why I didn't think of it. So Chris is Doctor Dolittle now. And if you believe that, you are ignorant.

Chris...every dog is different. Every dog has a motivator that suits them best. Many people suggested starving the crap out of the dog. Not rocket science. Since you stated you already did that, you recieved other suggestions. To belittle the others who tried to help you is BS. Since you seem to know who can't train a dog..why don't you instead just go straight to PM and save everyone the grief?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Howard Knauf said:


> Not a thing. Wonder why I didn't think of it. So Chris is Doctor Dolittle now. And if you believe that, you are ignorant.
> 
> Chris...every dog is different. Every dog has a motivator that suits them best. Many people suggested starving the crap out of the dog. Not rocket science. Since you stated you already did that, you recieved other suggestions. To belittle the others who tried to help you is BS. Since you seem to know who can't train a dog..why don't you instead just go straight to PM and save everyone the grief?



I don't mean it like that Howard. I was tired from the drive back from cali, happy about the dog tracking and grumpy in general. Then I got pissed to see a bunch of PMs about how I don't listen to advice and these people that I don't know say they know my dog better than me etc... it was stupid.

It's not that I didn't listen, I clearly stated that I have a certain way that I distill information and needed to do it my way to make it make sense.

I had already been starving the dog in the initial vids and that wasn't working. The Sardines was a big part of the success. Working with Chris Smith was a big part of the success too. He never shared his method on the board or in PM but I got it first hand. What I was really trying to tell others that have tracking issues is, you can't follow internet advice blindly. It doesn't mean everybody is wrong but nobody over the internet can truly help without seeing me and the dog in person. 

I worked with Chris, he said do what you do, then he asked why I did what I did and basically told me it was bullshit and he explained a few things to me. If he wants to share, he can. I had all the pieces, it was just a matter of HOW to put them together and when I go back and read the thread I can see that all of the pieces are more or less there but wouldn't work for my dog or me. So to me the screaming about how to do it were unwarranted.

Apologies to all offended.


----------



## Chris Michalek

One thing I'm going to do is use a bottcher harness, I haven't tried that and I think it will be a good cue for the dog as well*.


**
*


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> I didn't feed him for a few days.
> 
> Put him in a foreign crate that was uncomfortable to be in, he couldn't stand or hardly turn around. Told him to track. He made the choice to eat and not **** around over being in the crate. If he didn't track back into the crate.
> 
> Now he has that OH **** better get some food because that create sucks attitude. He's driving into the track enough that I can actually put tension the leash, in the past it would **** him up and make him quit.
> 
> Christopher Smith also gave me his theories behind tracking. Smith is a bomb ass trainer and one of the more impressive dogmen I have met.


And I thought you said your dog was your buddy! He looks starving and howking around for something to eat.... I suppose that is what you call manufacturing food drive ?


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> And I thought you said your dog was your buddy! He looks starving and howking around for something to eat.... I suppose that is what you call manufacturing food drive ?


 
yep he was hungry. I like to think he was starving himself... the all the food he could possibly eat was on the track he chose not to.


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> yep he was hungry. I like to think he was starving himself... the all the food he could possibly eat was on the track he chose not to.


 
Why do you reckon that was then Chris, him choosing not to eat it ?


----------



## Steve Strom

So, it was really as simple as you track muther****** because the alternative is gonna suck?


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Why do you reckon that was then Chris, him choosing not to eat it ?


Because he was used to eating out of a bowl. Now he's going to have to work for his food at least until I go on vacation.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Steve Strom said:


> So, it was really as simple as you track muther****** because the alternative is gonna suck?



more or less. The other factors are we broke his routine. He was used to eating out of a bowl in his crate a fairly specific times. Starving him, driving to LA and completely changing the environment as well as setting up a specific routine with cues is the other part.


----------



## maggie fraser

Pretty much the sort of tracking I've ever done with my dogs has been ttd (tracking through drive), and only a little sch tracking. On advice from my sch trainer, I starved my dog prior to tracking and he's a greedy guy, good food but better ball drive.

When the tracks were laid, the dog would track fine, but then would never eat his breakfast at the end of the track, kind of lost his appetite when working, which is what I thought generally happens when one is working.


----------



## susan tuck

Christopher Smith is one of the good guys, and contrary to many internet yahoos he can actually put his money where his mouth is because he knows what he's doing. Glad he was able to help you.


----------



## Chris Michalek

susan tuck said:


> Christopher Smith is one of the good guys, and contrary to many internet yahoos he can actually put his money where his mouth is because he knows what he's doing. Glad he was able to help you.



he's a yahoo too but in a good way, I think of him as a big black Shrek. Good easy going guy and funny as hell!!

Chris is the real deal


----------



## susan tuck

Shrek???? He's much cuter than Shrek.:lol:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Howard Knauf said:


> Not a thing. Wonder why I didn't think of it. So Chris is Doctor Dolittle now. And if you believe that, you are ignorant.
> 
> Chris...every dog is different. Every dog has a motivator that suits them best. Many people suggested starving the crap out of the dog. Not rocket science. Since you stated you already did that, you recieved other suggestions. To belittle the others who tried to help you is BS. Since you seem to know who can't train a dog..why don't you instead just go straight to PM and save everyone the grief?


Good on ya Howard!

I know dogs, have two myself, that would track eagerly on a full stomach. Some dogs have natural tracking drives and if you don't ruin these, you don't need to starve them for ages.

Chris, if you don't trust internet advice, then it's a bit "off" to let this run 20 pages, don't you think??

Good on ya Christopher Smith if you've got this Schnürregigele to track with his dog.

Good luck Chris M for the further tracking developments!!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Chris Michalek said:


> yep he was hungry. I like to think he was starving himself... the all the food he could possibly eat was on the track he chose not to.


Hunger strikes are stopped here with forced nutrition - if the person in question comes into prison, and still refuses to eat, it is recommended to let him die if this is his will.

Dogs have no notion of things like this, but I guess you were joking????


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> Good on ya Howard!
> 
> I know dogs, have two myself, that would track eagerly on a full stomach. Some dogs have natural tracking drives and if you don't ruin these, you don't need to starve them for ages.
> 
> Chris, if you don't trust internet advice, then it's a bit "off" to let this run 20 pages, don't you think??
> 
> Good on ya Christopher Smith if you've got this Schnürregigele to track with his dog.
> 
> Good luck Chris M for the further tracking developments!!



I trust that people can think up things that I can not. I trust that people have great ideas. I trust that people have better ideas than me but I can not trust somebody that hasn't met me or somebody that I trust deeply. The internet is the wild west and while I believe there are more good people than bad, there are truly bad people who will intentionally tell a person ****ed up things for no other reason other then to **** with them. Like a hole in a condom, if one swimmer can make it through then the whole thing can not be trusted. There are literally gas station attendants who are giving dog training advice, any decent dog trainer should be able to make ends meet without resorting to slave wages at a gas station. 

I am simply being careful, at the end of the day, I'm still me and I have my dog to train. Not being cautious is counter productive to my ultimate goals.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> Hunger strikes are stopped here with forced nutrition - if the person in question comes into prison, and still refuses to eat, it is recommended to let him die if this is his will.
> 
> Dogs have no notion of things like this, but I guess you were joking????



I was being facetious. A perfect example of why not everything can be trusted on the internet.


----------



## Joby Becker

glad to here its on track now chris...

Just think you came off like you were a little ungrateful for the all the effort to attempt to help you.. when it was posted that you NEEDED help. It came off like you said everyone was wrong...but it does appear that some people were almost right...and you used a bunch of tips from various sources...so not really wrong...maybe wrong for your particular dog and you. but probably right for others and their dogs....all in all posted some great things to try for similar situations.

glad you started the thread...


----------



## Chris Michalek

Joby Becker said:


> glad to here its on track now chris...
> 
> Just think you came off like you were a little ungrateful for the all the effort to attempt to help you.. when it was posted that you NEEDED help. It came off like you said everyone was wrong...but it does appear that some people were almost right...and you used a bunch of tips from various sources...so not really wrong...maybe wrong for your particular dog and you. but probably right for others and their dogs....all in all posted some great things to try for similar situations.
> 
> glad you started the thread...



no you're right. I was just pissy. I'm burnt to shit from 9 hours in the sun every day for three days and then the long ass drive back to phoenix after sleepless nights in a motel six that smells like dog piss from previous dogs.


----------



## Joby Becker

Chris Michalek said:


> no you're right. I was just pissy. I'm burnt to shit from 9 hours in the sun every day for three days and then the long ass drive back to phoenix after sleepless nights in a motel six that smells like dog piss from previous dogs.


LOL...


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> I trust that people can think up things that I can not. I trust that people have great ideas. I trust that people have better ideas than me but I can not trust somebody that hasn't met me or somebody that I trust deeply. The internet is the wild west and while I believe there are more good people than bad, there are truly bad people who will intentionally tell a person ****ed up things for no other reason other then to **** with them. Like a hole in a condom, if one swimmer can make it through then the whole thing can not be trusted. There are literally gas station attendants who are giving dog training advice, any decent dog trainer should be able to make ends meet without resorting to slave wages at a gas station.
> 
> I am simply being careful, at the end of the day, I'm still me and I have my dog to train. Not being cautious is counter productive to my ultimate goals.


Your dog certainly didn't look like you'd been training with caution at the start of this thread lol :-D, it's been interesting reading the thread, and glad you're on track even though your dog will probably never trust you again lol. Gimme your address :wink: and I'll send him a box of sardines, looks like he needs it poor bugger.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Oh! you pour soul!! My heart bleeds for you!


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Your dog certainly didn't look like you'd been training with caution at the start of this thread lol :-D, it's been interesting reading the thread, and glad you're on track even though your dog will probably never trust you again lol. Gimme your address :wink: and I'll send him a box of sardines, looks like he needs it poor bugger.



I'm not cautious with him so much as I am with people I don't know. Like I said there are ****ed up people who give ****ed up advice just to **** people up and that's a ****ed situation. If I knew more about tracking, I wouldn't have been asking for help so I need to be cautious. Am I wrong in thinking like that maggie? Do you believe everybody is a good person? BTW- I think YOU are a good one....SARDINES! I had actually only previously feed him the tomato based sardines and he won't eat them. In fact, he wouldn't eat them yesterday either. Sardine in oil is what works best for this dog.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> Oh! you pour soul!! My heart bleeds for you!



Oooooh I like a little blood. It makes things more interesting. 

Thank you!


----------



## Howard Knauf

Chris Michalek said:


> In fact, he wouldn't eat them yesterday either. Sardine in oil is what works best for this dog.


 Didn't know there was any other kind. I gotta get out more. Where's my quail eggs, Carol?8)


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Nutcase lol


----------



## tracey schneider

Chris Michalek said:


> I had actually only previously feed him the tomato based sardines and he won't eat them. In fact, he wouldn't eat them yesterday either. Sardine in oil is what works best for this dog.


:-s

see now had you shared the tomato thing, I can guarantee you folks would have given you the RIGHT advice.... that seems like a basic :-\"
[-(
t


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> Nutcase lol


Thanks but I prefer musically endowed tortured soul.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm not cautious with him so much as I am with people I don't know. Like I said there are ****ed up people who give ****ed up advice just to **** people up and that's a ****ed situation. If I knew more about tracking, I wouldn't have been asking for help so I need to be cautious. Am I wrong in thinking like that maggie? Do you believe everybody is a good person? BTW- I think YOU are a good one....SARDINES! I had actually only previously feed him the tomato based sardines and he won't eat them. In fact, he wouldn't eat them yesterday either. Sardine in oil is what works best for this dog.


In this case, you're bl..dy twisted!

Who would want to sabotage your efforts??????

Come down to earth Chris. I cannot believe what you are writing!


----------



## tracey schneider

Joby Becker said:


> glad to here its on track now chris...
> 
> Just think you came off like you were a little ungrateful for the all the effort to attempt to help you.. when it was posted that you NEEDED help. It came off like you said everyone was wrong...but it does appear that some people were almost right...



I agree... I see more RIGHT from the majority comments then WRONG =;, maybe its just the way its interpreted online. :grin:

starve, use food, jackpot/ reward at the end......=D>

t


----------



## tracey schneider

Gillian Schuler said:


> In this case, you're bl..dy twisted!
> 
> Who would want to sabotage your efforts??????
> 
> Come down to earth Chris. I cannot believe what you are writing!


I agree that does seem quite far fetched :-k

jsut glad you are moving forward....:-D=D>

t


----------



## Joby Becker

Chris Michalek said:


> Thanks but I prefer musically endowed tortured soul.


no one wants to here about how ENDOWED you are, you sick bassid..


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> In this case, you're bl..dy twisted!
> 
> Who would want to sabotage your efforts??????
> 
> Come down to earth Chris. I cannot believe what you are writing!



you need to get out more.

You don't need to believe me but consider this, this whole thread is nothing but a mind ****.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/buko-here-finally-16385/

Personally, I have NOTHING against Jeff and Carol. I think Jeff is a hoot and I follow what he says simply because most of the time he makes me laugh. I've talked to Carol several times on the phone and I think she's great. I'm just saying there are people out there that will and do purposely **** with others.

I and other **** with Fred Hassan all the time. I would be a fool to think people wouldn't do it to me.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Joby Becker said:


> no one wants to here about how ENDOWED you are, you sick bassid..



Don't be a hater Joby. :wink:


----------



## Joby Becker

Chris Michalek said:


> Don't be a hater Joby. :wink:


touche' I have NO musical talent other than getting drunk and karaokeing (sp) and thinking I can sing like a super star...

I do kind of hate it LOL...I am surrounded by people with geat musical talent...


----------



## Jim Nash

Chris Michalek said:


> He TRACKS!!!
> 
> if you're wondering why I don't blindly follow what people have to say on the internet about dog training it's because most people are wrong and in this case most you were all wrong in your assessments. Lots of great ideas, I picked what resonated with me and came up with the Chris solution.
> 
> He's nailing corners and doing it well.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your help and ideas.



Glad to hear your making progress . Sorry to hear it put in such a ****ed way though .


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Well put Jim, as much as I hope Chris is on the right track, to pardon the pun, I do think that when one asks for advice, one shouldn't try to come over as King Kong. But if it helped him, then o.k.


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris...now look what you've gone and done to all your internet pals here. Pals don't come cheap and easy you know....let's hope your new worked out approach works 'cos if it doesn't, you'll know where not to come back to.

Anyway, I thought you liked your dog...is he sleeping outside now in some too tight box with not quite enough air ?

Why couldn't you have just said....

Made a lot of progress over the last few days, implemented a good few ideas from this thread and I'd like to say a big thanks for all the contribution on this thread....how I love the working dog forum.

Instead, nearly everyone hates you now :wink:.


----------



## Christopher Smith

tracey delin said:


> starve, use food, jackpot/ reward at the end......=D>
> 
> t


Not quite


----------



## Chris Michalek

Christopher Smith said:


> Not quite



the ecollar on the testicles seemed to motivate him too.


----------



## maggie fraser

That's pretty sad that...to do that to your buddy 'cos you stuffed up and couldn't and can't read a dog.

Put him in a box (not air tight) and send him to me...he looks a nice dog.


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> That's pretty sad that...to do that to your buddy 'cos you stuffed up and couldn't and can't read a dog.
> 
> Put him in a box (not air tight) and send him to me...he looks a nice dog.



ecollar is easier. He needed to understand that he was going to do things my way or be shoved back in the box in the sun with the ecollar. It seems radical but the dog wasn't really hurt (no blood) and now look at the results.

I don't have an extra crate here so today I used a smallish cardboard box and I think it works better than the crate because it's more uncomfortable for him. He's not in there long, only an hour or so before he has to track. This method has built unbelievable drive for the track.


----------



## Steve Strom

Chris Michalek said:


> ecollar is easier. He needed to understand that he was going to do things my way or be shoved back in the box in the sun with the ecollar. It seems radical but the dog wasn't really hurt (no blood) and now look at the results.
> 
> I don't have an extra crate here so today I used a smallish cardboard box and I think it works better than the crate because it's more uncomfortable for him. He's not in there long, only an hour or so before he has to track. This method has built unbelievable drive for the track.


Do you have some new video yet?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Steve Strom said:


> Do you have some new video yet?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrgQRvC1ApU



not as good as the other video but had just taken quite a beating and I'm sure he was pretty tired so I was more lenient with him. He also nailed both corners but because he wasn't perfect we didn't let him eat his jackpot.


----------



## maggie fraser

The unbelievable drive as shown in your results video?? Just looked liked an unhappy dog to me...like what you see on the street with no home.

I'll get over it, I can see why they call schH gay lol


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> The unbelievable drive as shown in your results video?? Just looked liked an unhappy dog to me...like what you see on the street with no home.
> 
> I'll get over it, I can see why they call schH gay lol



compared to the first vid? It's unbelievable. 

I'm telling you the cardboard box in the sun and nut sack shocking method works.


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> compared to the first vid? It's unbelievable.
> 
> I'm telling you the cardboard box in the sun and nut sack shocking method works.


I don't agree....he just looks a tad more rumbled and uncomfortable. He doesn't exactly look like he's into it...even after all that nut shocking, starvation and squeezed into a box without enough air roasting in the sun. Did you try giving him a drink of water at all ? Poor bugger.


----------



## Steve Strom

Big improvement. Glad your getting it worked out.


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> I don't agree....he just looks a tad more rumbled and uncomfortable. He doesn't exactly look like he's into it...even after all that nut shocking, starvation and squeezed into a box without enough air roasting in the sun. Did you try giving him a drink of water at all ? Poor bugger.


If the little shit wants to track he can have all the water he wants. Those sardines are salty.

But like I said, Chris Smith gave him a good beating just before this video so I was a little more lenient.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Steve Strom said:


> Big improvement. Glad your getting it worked out.



Thanks!

This is his best effort so far

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csheom2_RBs


----------



## Mike Di Rago

That dog is not tracking. He is just moving from one visible footstep to the next because he gets the food, but he isn't tracking and you are not helping him to track, you are only following him. This will all become very evident when you will try to have him track an unknown track.
Mike


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> Thanks!
> 
> This is his best effort so far
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csheom2_RBs


Was that you launching him onto the track by the scruff ??

Quick, quick delete that link before anyone sees it.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Mike Di Rago said:


> That dog is not tracking. He is just moving from one visible footstep to the next because he gets the food, but he isn't tracking and you are not helping him to track, you are only following him. This will all become very evident when you will try to have him track an unknown track.
> Mike



How can you help a dog track? I do not have the ability to see scent. Is there a spray for that or something? Like when you're trying to steal painting from the museum and you want to spray something to see the lasers. 

@Chris Smith
if this dog isn't tracking you probably should give back half of the Chicken Parm I gave you. Thanks.


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Was that you launching him onto the track by the scruff ??
> 
> Quick, quick delete that link before anyone sees it.


He needs to be man handled. I was being to gay with him before.


----------



## susan tuck

Chris Michalek said:


> This is his best effort so far
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csheom2_RBs


Nicely done Chris, Nicely done. Quite a difference in your dog and your handling skills from the first video to this one. Keep up the good work. I wouldn't even be surprised if you start to actually like tracking & become a zen tracker before too long!!


----------



## Chris Michalek

susan tuck said:


> Nicely done Chris, Nicely done. Quite a difference in your dog and your handling skills from the first video to this one. Keep up the good work. I wouldn't even be surprised if you start to actually like tracking & become a zen tracker before too long!!



Thanks Susan. It's been super frustrating as you can see in a couple of vids. I'm happy that we're on our way now. I tracked him this morning and performed about the same as you see in the vid.


----------



## Mike Di Rago

To ''help'' the dog on the track you need to be able to read the dog and tell if he is tracking or just walking in the direction of the track and picking up food as he comes across it. Adding tension on the line on occasion will send a message to your dog and by the return intensity, or lack of, he will confirm that he is on the track, or not, or looking for it.
The handler's part is just as important in helping the dog develop the proper attitude on the track, it's not just walking 2 steps behind while holding the line, especially on a known track that you laid yourself! 
But if this is good tracking for you...
Mike


----------



## susan tuck

Actually footsteps that are very visible to the human eye are not so much to dogs. Remember we are looking from a much higher and further distance. Put your head down close to a track in the grass, so that your eyes are no more than a few inches from the track, then start moving forward, even humans with their superior near vision and superior color vision have great difficulty in seeing a track in the grass from this perspective. Also dogs close up vision is very blurry, they do see movement very well though. Dogs rely on their sense of smell first.

As far as tension on the line, I track with a tense line, but not everybody does. I do not agree with occasionally adding tension on the line and a judge would see that as interference. You either track with tension or none. 

I wonder if you watched the videos leading up to the last video? This team is showing amazing progress.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Mike Di Rago said:


> That dog is not tracking. He is just moving from one visible footstep to the next because he gets the food, but he isn't tracking and you are not helping him to track, you are only following him. This will all become very evident when you will try to have him track an unknown track.
> Mike


 The dog won't have to track an unknown track until going for the SchH2. Does the dog already have a BH?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Skip Morgart said:


> The dog won't have to track an unknown track until going for the SchH2. Does the dog already have a BH?



will do BH in sept.

schH1 in Oct or Dec if I can get his tracking together.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Chris,

That doesn't look too bad at all.

Considering all your frustration which must have affected the dog, I think like Susan says, it's a good start again.

I understand what Mike di Rago says about the dog and you but I think if you carry on like this, you'll get to enjoy tracking with him and so the dog will gain confidence and you'll learn to trust him and not get frustrated.

Don't move on too quickly and good luck.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> Chris,
> 
> That doesn't look too bad at all.
> 
> Considering all your frustration which must have affected the dog, I think like Susan says, it's a good start again.
> 
> I understand what Mike di Rago says about the dog and you but I think if you carry on like this, you'll get to enjoy tracking with him and so the dog will gain confidence and you'll learn to trust him and not get frustrated.
> 
> Don't move on too quickly and good luck.


I'm gradually working towards more tension on the line. Before he wouldn't track with any tension. 

I thought he did well this morning. It's almost 100F and it's very humid. I tried to keep in the shade, it was about a 200 pace track with lots of corners and semi-circles within the shade of the available trees. He would go out into the sun when we had to go from tree to tree. He didn't miss a corner or lift the head once. I'm pleased!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm gradually working towards more tension on the line. Before he wouldn't track with any tension.
> 
> I thought he did well this morning. It's almost 100F and it's very humid. I tried to keep in the shade, it was about a 200 pace track with lots of corners and semi-circles within the shade of the available trees. He would go out into the sun when we had to go from tree to tree. He didn't miss a corner or lift the head once. I'm pleased!


And that's what you call "gradually" - I'm laughing myself silly here. However, I hope it goes well!!


----------



## Skip Morgart

Gillian Schuler said:


> And that's what you call "gradually" - I'm laughing myself silly here. However, I hope it goes well!!


 
Congratulations on the dog's improvement....I would still be careful not to overdo it though. The SchH1 track is not all that long. I would keep the tracking relatively short for now...easier to keep the dog motivated, especially since the BH has to be done first. Too much tracking pressure is going to affect other areas.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Thanks Skip.

My general plan is this... it's too hot to be doing bitework. I'm not doing any OB right now. I have to work for two weeks in Aug, so I'm going to do tracking only until Aug 13...every meal is from the track. Then he's going to be put up for two weeks. I'll track him again after that but then start working on the BH routine during play/train time in the mornings when I exercise him. In Sept, we'll start with the bitework again when it's a little cooler.


----------



## David Feliciano

Training with Chris was a blast. I just hope his cornhole has recovered from my sneak attacks


----------



## David Feliciano

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm gradually working towards more tension on the line. Before he wouldn't track with any tension.
> 
> I thought he did well this morning. It's almost 100F and it's very humid. I tried to keep in the shade, it was about a 200 pace track with lots of corners and semi-circles within the shade of the available trees. He would go out into the sun when we had to go from tree to tree. He didn't miss a corner or lift the head once. I'm pleased!





Gillian Schuler said:


> And that's what you call "gradually" - I'm laughing myself silly here. However, I hope it goes well!!


Do you have a reading comprehension issue? He said he is gradually working towards putting tension on the line during tracking. This has nothing to do with how long the track is or any other tracking conditions. #-o


----------



## Chris Michalek

David Feliciano said:


> Training with Chris was a blast. I just hope his cornhole has recovered from my sneak attacks



It's better. When do you get the stitches removed from the corners of your mouth?


----------



## Gillian Schuler

David Feliciano said:


> Do you have a reading comprehension issue? He said he is gradually working towards putting tension on the line during tracking. This has nothing to do with how long the track is or any other tracking conditions. #-o


No, I do not have a reading comprehension. I realised that after I had posted but, as I suggested to him "take it slowly", I decided to leave it.

And from "gradually working towards putting tension on the line during tracking" one could assume that the dog is not all too confident and to judge from the twenty-odd pages of questions and answers, I'd say it would be a good idea to move on slowly as with increasing the difficulties too quickly, the dog may encounter new problems.

In future, when I'm talking to the "cheese", I'd be glad if the "maggot" didn't join in.


----------



## Joby Becker

your wish is granted, you can be glad


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Error: should read "no I do not have a reading comprehension issue"

God's judgement, I guess


----------



## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> Error: should read "no I do not have a reading comprehension issue"
> 
> God's judgement, I guess


apparently my reading comprehension is slipping, I missed that one....:roll:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Hey Chris, what is up with the prank phone calls ?? I know you know what I am talking about. You have her number, only way he could have gotten it. 

I guess you rolled over hard with your new creepy perve buddy. Nice one. Hope the training was worth how bad this idiot is gonna **** you in the end.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Hey Chris, what is up with the prank phone calls ?? I know you know what I am talking about. You have her number, only way he could have gotten it.
> 
> I guess you rolled over hard with your new creepy perve buddy. Nice one. Hope the training was worth how bad this idiot is gonna **** you in the end.


Carol, you need to step in here. I saw your FB post.

For those that don't understand, apparently Carol Boche is getting prank calls and Jeff assumes because I have her number I gave it to somebody else. I may do ****ed up shit at times but my BS with people on this board does not extend past this board. I don't give out contact info to anyone without that person's permission, that kind of shit is not in my blood. Unlike a lot of people on this board, I have a very minor public reputation. It's very easy to find all of my contact info and that in and of itself is why I would never go to creepy extremes. 

I also have tremendous respect for Carol. I have little contact with people on this board but the ones I do speak to about stuff that is beyond dogs can tell you in a second what I am really about and giving out private info and bringing shit to people in real life is not how I roll. 

You're really crossing a line with this accusation Jeff. And unless you have strict proof thereof which you possibly can not then you need to stop because bringing harm to me or my business with this bullshit will bring some real heat to you that you your pocketbook can't afford. 

I may poke and prod on the internet but real life is real life and that's something I don't screw with, PERIOD. End this BS right here and now Jeff


----------



## Carol Boche

> Hey Chris, what is up with the prank phone calls ?? I know you know what I am talking about. You have her number, only way he could have gotten it.
> 
> I guess you rolled over hard with your new creepy perve buddy. Nice one. Hope the training was worth how bad this idiot is gonna **** you in the end.


It was not Chris that gave out my numbers. And it was actually not David that was pulling the calls. 
It was two numbers based out of Florida but the calls were pinged (or whatever they do) from South Carolina from the check we ran this morning. It was not anyone that belongs to this board either. 
It was a man, and he was talking about how my dogs are shit....and so on. Once I get this taken care of.....there should be no more issues. 

I have a good idea on who did this, and it really sucks that it happened yesterday with all the other shit going on. 

I don't play games....."if ya want to sling crap...bring it" is my motto. Would rather face it than have people talking smack behind my back.

My sincere apologies to you Chris.


----------



## tracey schneider

wow, sorry for finding this amazingly humorous, I just cant believe someone would go through all that trouble to crank call someone.... and then there is the 'crank calling" thing to being with.... I didnt know people still did that [-X

AMAZING
t


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Chris- WHY are you tracking him on such long tracks when he is not good at tracking? Shouldn't you be keeping it short and fun for him? I mean you can tell in the videos(the latest) that he is not very enthused about the tracking but more methodical. 

IDK. If he was my dog, I'd be running 3 short tracks, 2 straights and one with a turn. 

Also, why are you introducing articles when he is not tracking well and seems to be confused about the article and downing on the track to begin with. I would think, one would want nice paced GOOD tracking before they slowed their dog down and introduced articles. 

I'm a newbie still so IDK. That's just my .02 and how I would do things if I had a dog that lacked DRIVE for tracking.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Thanks Carol.

Tracking update:

2x8o pace straight. Great job. I'll post some video the next time I don't track alone.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Chris- WHY are you tracking him on such long tracks when he is not good at tracking? Shouldn't you be keeping it short and fun for him? I mean you can tell in the videos(the latest) that he is not very enthused about the tracking but more methodical.
> 
> IDK. If he was my dog, I'd be running 3 short tracks, 2 straights and one with a turn.
> 
> Also, why are you introducing articles when he is not tracking well and seems to be confused about the article and downing on the track to begin with. I would think, one would want nice paced GOOD tracking before they slowed their dog down and introduced articles.
> 
> I'm a newbie still so IDK. That's just my .02 and how I would do things if I had a dog that lacked DRIVE for tracking.



lol...

two shorter tracks today. 

He seems enthused to get to the track and is more methodical on the track. he clearly understands the routine now and he hasn't eaten a meal out of a bowl in over a week. I'm going to keep at this until my trip in mid Aug. 


He knows articles. I trained them off the track. We're not actually doing articles on the track right now, we get to the end, he it's the jackpot and when he looks at me I show him the article that's in my hand as if he found it. 

The track yesterday was designed to stay in the shade. I did the same today but was able to stay in the shade with two straight line tracks. 

What I especially notices today is he dragged me to the tracking area and I was able to keep full tension on the line without him being wigged out and thinking it was for something else.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

What was that about the semi circles, numerous corners, 200m track then?

Also, why do you think you have to have the dog on a tensioned lead? Loose is also ok and loose means you can't influence the dog. If you'll pardon my saying, on the last video you looked like an agitated mother hen following her chick and had one eye on the dog and one ear on your "instructor". Can't h/she walk next to you? Would be easier on you and the dog.

Looks like you're making progress though Chris.


----------



## susan tuck

Chris Michalek said:


> lol...
> 
> What I especially notices today is he dragged me to the tracking area and I was able to keep full tension on the line without him being wigged out and thinking it was for something else.


You guys are understanding each other better on the track. I agree with Gillian, even though, as I have said before, I prefer to track with a tight line, I prefer my dog to have a lot of drive on the track, which is not the same as being hectic on the track. Not everybody wants this, nor is it right for every dog. Some prefer a loose line tracking dog, both are correct.

We must remember we are training the dog we have, which is not always the dog we wish we had in every aspect. For example, my dog does a silent guard. I don't like silent guard, but this is what is best with this dog. I don't want to go off topic here and discuss the pros and cons or reasons for a silent vs active guard, this is just a point I am trying to make about training the dog we have rather than expecting the dog to do everything the way we like.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> What was that about the semi circles, numerous corners, 200m track then?
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like you're making progress though Chris.



staying in the shade. Even though he didn't miss a beat yesterday, I dialed it down and did two shorter tracks today still in the effort to stay in the shade. 

It's brutally hot here even at 5:30am.


@Courtney the thing about doing longer tracks is he really seems to settle down and gets busy with tracking.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

So he knows articles BUT to me introdcuing them ON the track even at the end would slow him down. He is already slow enough that if you slow him down more, he'll be belly crawling it. IDK. I would want him running the tracks well before I introduced articles on them. 

Yeah, IDK. I had read another of your posts where it stated that he did multiple corners, turns and all sorts of crap. So I assumed that is the way you were doing it. Maybe stick with one method and try that instead of bouncing back and forth between methods. 

Great progress that he drug you the tracking area. That is awesome and a good sign. Now you have to get him to keep it up.

IDK. I think that you are stepping over a real problem and attempting a band-aid style fix for it by running the longer tracks, the first part is what you need to fix IMHO which IMHO would be done with shorter better tracks with more consistency.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Courtney Guthrie said:


> So he knows articles BUT to me introdcuing them ON the track even at the end would slow him down. He is already slow enough that if you slow him down more, he'll be belly crawling it. IDK. I would want him running the tracks well before I introduced articles on them.
> 
> Yeah, IDK. I had read another of your posts where it stated that he did multiple corners, turns and all sorts of crap. So I assumed that is the way you were doing it. Maybe stick with one method and try that instead of bouncing back and forth between methods.
> 
> Great progress that he drug you the tracking area. That is awesome and a good sign. Now you have to get him to keep it up.



there are no articles on the track even though he's not new to articles on the track. Months ago we were tracking with no food and articles only and he would indicate them. In the very first vids of this thread, he hadn't tracked in months because I was frustrated and didn't know what to do. The other guy in the group were pretty baffled as well.

What I am most pleased about is, he is not hungry and still continues to show progress. He's also not looking to eat in the mornings and at feeding time he's ready to go back outside so to me, he's clearly made the connection that he tracks for his food. This is behavior that I have never seen out of him.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Chris- WHY are you tracking him on such long tracks when he is not good at tracking? Shouldn't you be keeping it short and fun for him?


He is doing longer tracks because they allow the dog settle in and get into the right state of mind for schutzhund tracking. That state of mind is the most important aspect, 

What makes you believe that short tracks automatically equal 'fun' tracks? For some dogs the fun can only start after they are confident and at ease on the track. So if you track them short every time they are never at ease one the track. Ya, know what I'm tryin' to say?





> If he was my dog, I'd be running 3 short tracks, 2 straights and one with a turn.


And they may work for your dog. But by saying that you wound do this and that you are excluding a lot of variables. Would you do the same track on wet 5 inch grass in the winter in Portland as you would do on dry clumpy dirt in California? 

There are no formulas. 



> Also, why are you introducing articles when he is not tracking well and seems to be confused about the article and downing on the track to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> There are no articles on the track. he is pulling it out of his pocket and showing it to the dog. This is and the down are a queue to the dog that the tracking is finished. It's also used to show the dog that the articles are something that he should be interested in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would think, one would want nice paced GOOD tracking before they slowed their dog down and introduced articles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just my .02 and how I would do things if I had a dog that lacked DRIVE for tracking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think you have a very good read on this dog. He dosen't lack drive. He has some issues with the handler and some bad experiences that are inhibiting him. Clear up those issues and he's going to fine.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Gillian Schuler

That is true in my mind, a simple, but longer track can calm the dog down and show you what he can do, by the way.

Especially, if the handler lets the dog just lead him to success. As you say, handler issues can be solved this way.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Courtney Guthrie said:


> So he knows articles BUT to me introdcuing them ON the track even at the end would slow him down. He is already slow enough that if you slow him down more, he'll be belly crawling it. IDK. I would want him running the tracks well before I introduced articles on them.


Please believe me that I'm not trying to call you out, get into a pissing match, diminish or embarrass you. But have you ever gotten a schutzhund title or a schutzhund tracking title?

I'm really trying to to gauge how I should reply to some of your questions and comments.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Nope haven't titled anything beyond my APBT with a BH, although she is a tracking machine. My GSD is going for his B and 1 the same weekend this fall. I can say that I track every day, do tracks with an AKC club weekly as well as Schutzhund tracks. I may not have titled anything yet but I'm not stupid. 

No, I just don't see what others do I guess. I see a dog that lacks Drive for tracking. Period. Articles, no articles, food, no food. I watched the videos of him. A lot of the vids of him tracking. i do understand that articles can be a motivator for certain dogs but in the vids, this dog didn't act as if they were a motivator for him. 

I do think it is a handler problem not necessarily the dog. 

Short tracks don't always mean fun tracks and every dog is different BUT it is obvious that the handler needs to try something different as what he is doing isn't working. 

That dog lacks CONFIDENCE on the track.(Not saying in general, we are only talking tracking here). He is not confident in himself nor his handler. 

To me he looks like he was pushed TOO FAR too fast and now, you have all these issues to clear up. Again, that is what I see in the vids. 

The article thing confuses me as it has been pounded into my head that you do not introduce any articles near the track until the dog is tracking well. 

IDK. I'm very thankful that I keep my ears open and my mouth shut when listening to my trainers and advice from others. Also, that I've never had a dog that was hard to track or train to track. I'll show some video of a Rottie(not food motivated) doing some beginning style tracking and what I've done with her, the dog is 6 years old, so not young but still a newbie to tracking.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Nope haven't titled anything beyond my APBT with a BH, although she is a tracking machine. My GSD is going for his B and 1 the same weekend this fall. I can say that I track every day, do tracks with an AKC club weekly as well as Schutzhund tracks. I may not have titled anything yet but I'm not stupid.


That's great and I hope to see you on the field at some point. I know your not stupid and I hope you understand why I asked the question. 



> No, I just don't see what others do I guess. I see a dog that lacks Drive for tracking. Period.


The dog does not lack drive. The dog is inhibited. A lack of drive is genetic and inhibition is due to environment and training. You can change the environment and training, but you can't change the genetics.



> i do understand that articles can be a motivator for certain dogs but in the vids, this dog didn't act as if they were a motivator for him.


Geeez, give them a break they have only been at it for less than a week. 



> Rottie(not food motivated)


Hmmm I was in Rotts for 20+ years and never met one of those.:grin:


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

She is a genetic mess and not typical for what a Rottie should be. 

I will agree that the dog in inhibited BUT to me it looks like the dog lacks drive to track. I agree that you can't change genetics but if you have a high drive dog and then squash the drive, the dog will end up lacking drive! 

IDK. That is what I see. I wish him the best of luck with this. He has gotten a TON of good advice over the course of 32 pages.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Courtney Guthrie said:


> I agree that you can't change genetics but if you have a high drive dog and then squash the drive, the dog will end up lacking drive!


Not in every case or even most. I have trained some very inhibited dogs and with the right training they have turn out really nice. Remember there are very very few absolutes, 100% perfects or formulas when it comes to dogs.


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris M, was the dog ever a high drive tracker ?


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Chris M, was the dog ever a high drive tracker ?



nope. since 9wks old when I brought him home he was and always has been a slow and finicky eater. 

everything I trained him to do has been with a toy as he has always been uninterested in food. 

The only thing he's ever eaten with any gusto is his kibble but when I say gusto, I mean it in a way that is relative to the dog. I used to spend time with all of the dog sitting around me when I cook and I would toss them bits of raw or cooked meat. Dog generally get competitive around food like that and will eat whatever all the others are eating but he has always spit it out. 

To date, the only things I can get him to actually eat and swallow is his kibble (lamb based only), orange slices, cheese balls, corn tortilla and now sardines in oil. I have put bits of meat in with his kibble but he eats the kibble and leaves the meat at the bottom of the bowl. He's quite a strange dog.

Last night we were watching a movie and had pop corn. He was climbing all over me trying to get some and I gave him one. He ran to the corner and spit it out. He seems interested but he simply doesn't like food.

Michelle Moore showed me a method that uses tugs, I did that for awhile and he showed real drive for that but was too crazy and eventually stopped with the head down behavior that I created early on. That's when I quit tracking him for awhile until one of the club members had time to track with me everyday. That's when the videos and this thread was started.


----------



## maggie fraser

Then why are you using food as a motivator ? And if it seems he has not the drive for tracking...what are you trying to prove ? that you can force a dog to track because YOu want a sch title? Have a word with yourself...I thought you were a creative type, obviously not lol .


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Then why are you using food as a motivator ? And if it seems he has not the drive for tracking...what are you trying to prove ? that you can force a dog to track because YOu want a sch title? Have a word with yourself...I thought you were a creative type, obviously not lol .


you've got a point. Maybe tomorrow I will use dirty underwear bits...now how to get into the neighbors house without her noticing. :-k


----------



## Christopher Smith

maggie fraser said:


> Then why are you using food as a motivator ? And if it seems he has not the drive for tracking...what are you trying to prove ? that you can force a dog to track because YOu want a sch title? Have a word with yourself...I thought you were a creative type, obviously not lol .


What a shit stirring bitch! Does his happiness and optimism screw with you that much?


----------



## Joby Becker

I can mail you some \\/ How dirty do you want em???


----------



## maggie fraser

Christopher Smith said:


> What a shit stirring bitch! Does his happiness and optimism screw with you that much?


 
What an odd response!

My conversation is with Chris M, not you! 

Chris M, you sounded like you were trying to be funny, smart even....not your usual good self !


----------



## Chris Michalek

Joby Becker said:


> I can mail you some \\/ How dirty do you want em???



you collect dirty panties?  

I only want women's undergarments mostly because there is this weird stigma about schH so I don't want my boy tracking for boys knome sain? :mrgreen:


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> What an odd response!
> 
> My conversation is with Chris M, not you!
> 
> Chris M, you sounded like you were trying to be funny, smart even....not your usual good self !


I am very happy with how things are progressing right now. Changing to another method right now will only create ](*,) and :-k and :| and #-o and  when all I want is \\/


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> I am very happy with how things are progressing right now. Changing to another method right now will only create ](*,) and :-k and :| and #-o and  when all I want is \\/


There are better ways to achieve that than through a dog :wink:. Good luck meantime, but more so to your dog lol :-D.


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> There are better ways to achieve that than through a dog :wink:. Good luck meantime, but more so to your dog lol :-D.



and exactly what would your method be?

You don't like the starving bit or what is your general issue with what he's doing?


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris Michalek said:


> and exactly what would your method be?
> 
> You don't like the starving bit or what is your general issue with what he's doing?


 
My issue is with you, not the dog. You have your mind set on the schH title so you are quite right to go with the experienced schH trainers. I would tackle it a little differently, I would take the time to learn about my dog and what motivates him...from there I would be creative, and not dabble and blunder and blunder, under pressure because I want a title.

It's more about an attitude and approach rather than blind ambition, but that's just me and I'm no experienced sch trainer....obviously. You just seem like a nice guy with a nice dog.


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> My issue is with you, not the dog. You have your mind set on the schH title so you are quite right to go with the experienced schH trainers. I would tackle it a little differently, I would take the time to learn about my dog and what motivates him...from there I would be creative, and not dabble and blunder and blunder, under pressure because I want a title.
> 
> It's more about an attitude and approach rather than blind ambition, but that's just me and I'm no experienced sch trainer....obviously. You just seem like a nice guy with a nice dog.


he's by far not a shitter. As far as schH goes, he's almost ready with the other two phases. The only phase that is not at all together is tracking and I've been avoiding it for months. The local trialing season in coming in a couple of months and it's time to focus on tracking. 

What motivates him is a toy/ball etc... but I couldn't get the head down deep nose I wanted for schH. 

The dog has a very solid schH pedigree and the sire was on the this year's world team. He's a schH dog.

So exactly how would you tackle the problem? What I'm doing is working, you disagree? 

You can't get much better than working with a guy like Chris Smith. Perhaps you can't see it through the internet but he knows what he's doing more than most.

One of the things that has kinda screwed up the dog is the fact that I am around him 24 hrs a day, I did OB every day and most days twice a day. I love training dogs but that has create an overly compliant dog. Now I just play with him every day but I **** with him while we play an all day long. I never used to use a pinch but he wears one when we go out now and I work on creating a bit of conflict with him. He seems to be responding well. I'm going to do more of this conflict training when I get back from vacation and get my friend Dana to assist. Until then, I'm only going to track him for every meal.

Our status is =D>


----------



## maggie fraser

_One of the things that has kinda screwed up the dog is the fact that I am around him 24 hrs a day,_

That's kind of what I've been getting at and now all of a sudden, you're treating him like the enemy and plan on implementing a strategy of conflict...how f*****is that !

Why don't you know your dog please ?


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> _One of the things that has kinda screwed up the dog is the fact that I am around him 24 hrs a day,_
> 
> That's kind of what I've been getting at and now all of a sudden, you're treating him like the enemy and plan on implementing a strategy of conflict...how f*****is that !
> 
> Why don't you know your dog please ?


I do know my dog and that's why I'm going to make him crazy. I'm going to teach him to be pushy.

So your plan and other creative ways of tracking? I'd really like to hear it. Especially since, the sardine idea was yours. That's been a magic pill in this case.


----------



## maggie fraser

Chris, I've never followed methodology in my life, other than formal academic educational courses I have undertaken, for academics sake.

I can't offer you a method, but maybe I can suggest a different way for you and your dog that live with each other in the house, 24 hrs a day, sharing the joys and sorrows, sharing life :wink:. Your dog knows you, that much I'll bet on...what's the hurry for the title next trial date? Are you prepared to get rid of him if he doesn't cut it or takes too long to get it? What exactly is the hurry?


----------



## Chris Michalek

maggie fraser said:


> Chris, I've never followed methodology in my life, other than formal academic educational courses I have undertaken, for academics sake.
> 
> I can't offer you a method, but maybe I can suggest a different way for you and your dog that live with each other in the house, 24 hrs a day, sharing the joys and sorrows, sharing life :wink:. Your dog knows you, that much I'll bet on...what's the hurry for the title next trial date? Are you prepared to get rid of him if he doesn't cut it or takes too long to get it? What exactly is the hurry?



what I don't understand is why you think I'm rushing? I could have done his BH last fall but I didn't. I could have pushed for a schH1 last year but I didn't. The point is, it's time to work on this stuff. He's ready for the BH now and if there were a trial this afternoon, I would take him down there to get a BH. 

It's not that I'm in a hurry, its more like I'm beginning to waste time. This dog will get titled and he will do well as long as I can get his tracking in order. 

He's almost 2yrs old AND he's a malinois, I'm the one wasting time not pushing for it.

So what is your suggestion for living with the dog? I'm not going to up and stick him in a kennel now. I'm considering it but won't do it until it's cooler and he can have time to adapt to living in the heat. 115F is not a good way to introduce a dog to permanent outdoor living.


----------



## susan tuck

Chris Michalek said:


> you collect dirty panties?
> 
> I only want women's undergarments mostly because there is this weird stigma about schH so I don't want my boy tracking for boys knome sain? :mrgreen:


 
Listen I'll tell you about some weird TRUE shit: Back in the early 90s there was a woman who was breeding those Malamute/GSD things. She used to every once in a while, come to the public park where our club trained and sort of hang around on the sidelines. We had a tracking seminar & she paid to participate. So the guy we brought in to give the seminar is explaining about scent pads, how to lay tracks for puppies, a bunch of basic stuff. This gal actually got up and told us she had a special way to lay tracks to get puppies to track. She siad she pulled her panties down and bumped bare ass along the ground. Amazing.


----------



## Chris Michalek

susan tuck said:


> Listen I'll tell you about some weird TRUE shit: Back in the early 90s there was a woman who was breeding those Malamute/GSD things. She used to every once in a while, come to the public park where our club trained and sort of hang around on the sidelines. We had a tracking seminar & she paid to participate. So the guy we brought in to give the seminar is explaining about scent pads, how to lay tracks for puppies, a bunch of basic stuff. This gal actually got up and told us she had a special way to lay tracks to get puppies to track. She siad she pulled her panties down and bumped bare ass along the ground. Amazing.



that made me spit my tea!!!! holy shit. I bet it worked though.

Yeah I'm gonna say NO to that one.


----------



## Joby Becker

c'mon chris do it ...video it ..LOL like to see the poor skinny guy get lost in the craters....

just kidding


----------



## Chris Michalek

Today I'm nearly giddy with his performance. And today, his drive for the track was truly there.

Its overcast and considerably cooler than it has been. I laid a ~280 pace U track. Today is the 2nd day he was waiting by the door to go out instead of in his crate for feeding time and when we go to the tracking field, he was barking at me while I was mixing the food just like he does before I run him in the morning. After I laid the track and came back to the truck he was whining and barking to get at it. 

I pissed him on the way to the field. As I get to the flag I feel like it's going to rain. I tell him to SUCH and off he goes, I've got full tension on the lead again and was standing about 10ft back instead of the regular 6ft because it's easier to let him track that way with out the lead chaffing against his balls.

I'm using 1-2 pieces of kibble mixed with sardines in every step. 80% through the first leg of the track it starts to sprinkle. I was hope to avoid this but we've done enough playing and training in the rain that I can see it's not bothering him at all. He nails the corner and continues on with it sprinkling a little harder. 

He nails the second corner and half way through the last leg, it really starts to dump, I mean dump hard and the dog shows a bit of discomfort but did not leave the track or even lift his head, I was going to pull him from the track but he keep forcibly moving forward and I could see the jack pot a few feet ahead. 

At the jackpot, it's a full on hard rain that is uncomfortable for me but he layed there and ate his food like nothing was going on. I'm happy that my previous training efforts in the rain is paying showing through.

Today I am     

Now I never intended to track him in the rain and I didn't think it was going to rain but it did. What should I have done if he started to get off the track, correct or take him off or???

Courtney amd Maggie, I would call his behavior today, Drive for the track. \\/ \\/ \\/ \\/


----------



## susan tuck

Fantastic! I have tracked in the hail and I have tracked in the rain, and neither have bothered my dog too much. If my dog starts to get muley/balky (for whatever reason) I correct him & tell him "such", because my dog must understand "I must", (which he is REALLY going to understand very soon, but that's neither here nor there). I would not let him quit and would and have quite literally pushed him down the track, but my dog and his program is different from yours, so this might be the exact worse thing to do with your dog, especially at this stage of the game. If I were you, I would ask Chris, because Chris has seen your dog track and knows where your dog is at better than any of us here, and most importantly has helped you get to the place you are at right now. You are working a good program, so stick with your program!


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## susan tuck

That's super he's tracking in drive now. It was just a question of finding what worked, a good dog is a good dog. Christopher is a master.


----------



## Chris Michalek

I going tracking with the club tomorrow on a different field so I'll be able to get some video.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Chris Michalek said:


> What should I have done if he started to get off the track, correct or take him off or???


Just take him off if he falls out of proper tracking behavior. But if he was still working and just got wacky 'cause of the rain I would let him work it out. BUT DON'T CORRECT HIM!

I'm glad to hear things are working out.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Excellent Chris sounds like your doing it like its supposed to be done, create the habit get the dog doing it Schutzhund style keeping there head down no broadcasting or air scenting head down into the disturbance nothing matters but these footprints, the food helps them understand, disturbance food, disturbance food, disturbance disturbance disturbance disturbance food making it random create a solid clear habit/foundation always set your tracks up for success with lessons. Your dogs lesson now is habit maybe after that wind direction lay your leg using cross wind from the rear and last head wind I like to keep head wind short this is ware the dogs head hill most often start come up. 
Take your time don't be so quick to start corners and length make quality first.
Did you see my Schutzhund III video the last 1/2 was flawless except he is a little more fidgety at the articles than I want but.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=slTDAtZujQY 
His deep nose and intensity he shows is all him I just made it habit, he was tracking this way for 2 years before I put force on him, the force was only to make discipline with what he already knows just like any obedience exercise. For those that don't know Schutzhund tracking is obedience as far as I'm concerned and most that have been at it a wile see it the same way.
Any way take your time and make quality ask for help or suggestions from people that have done it what your decribing "sounds like your on the rite track"
I damn sure didn't rite the book I use, I just put on my own way of applying and customize it to make it work for me and my dog but I did it there way first.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

Great to hear Chris! Congrats! Dealing with issues can suck, no matter what they are or how "easy" they seem to others. It is all about finding what works for you and your dog!


----------



## Chris Michalek

Jett looks great. I would love to go tracking with you one morning next month.

I watched Chris Smith track his dog and it can only help me watch another good tracker. 




Mike Scheiber said:


> Excellent Chris sounds like your doing it like its supposed to be done, create the habit get the dog doing it Schutzhund style keeping there head down no broadcasting or air scenting head down into the disturbance nothing matters but these footprints, the food helps them understand, disturbance food, disturbance food, disturbance disturbance disturbance disturbance food making it random create a solid clear habit/foundation always set your tracks up for success with lessons. Your dogs lesson now is habit maybe after that wind direction lay your leg using cross wind from the rear and last head wind I like to keep head wind short this is ware the dogs head hill most often start come up.
> Take your time don't be so quick to start corners and length make quality first.
> Did you see my Schutzhund III video the last 1/2 was flawless except he is a little more fidgety at the articles than I want but.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=slTDAtZujQY
> His deep nose and intensity he shows is all him I just made it habit, he was tracking this way for 2 years before I put force on him, the force was only to make discipline with what he already knows just like any obedience exercise. For those that don't know Schutzhund tracking is obedience as far as I'm concerned and most that have been at it a wile see it the same way.
> Any way take your time and make quality ask for help or suggestions from people that have done it what your decribing "sounds like your on the rite track"
> I damn sure didn't rite the book I use, I just put on my own way of applying and customize it to make it work for me and my dog but I did it there way first.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Seems we took a little step backwards today. He wasn't as drivey as he's been showing in the past couple of days and he's started lifting his head again. What's the best way to deal with the head popping up? I just let him be, didn't say anything and he's started in again.

Varibles that haven't been with him all week are, Rottie was along for the trip and we were on the same field as the original vids in this thread. I think the rottie around the food affected him today. I was mixing the food in front of the Mal today and the Rott was getting growly. I had been bringing back to the truck after the track to let him eat the bits that were left in the bowl and today he wouldn't eat them, however he did when I took the bowl out of the truck and away from the Rott. Me thinks the Rottie is vibing him out over the food and this might have been a big part of the problem all along.

Video from this morning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cft6LjjO-LY


----------



## Christopher Smith

You handling was crap and unorganized in the beginning
Your steps are still waaaaayyyyy too far apart
The food is too small so the dog is getting grass in his mouth
Ok now you tell me what to do.


----------



## Chris Michalek

tension on the line.
get close to the dog maybe 5-6ft behind him.
more food.
smaller steps.... already doing staggered heel to toe. maybe more overlapping like mid foot to heel
leave the rott at home.


In the beginning, I put the line underneath him and then brought him to the track via his collar.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris Michalek said:


> What's the best way to deal with the head popping up? I just let him be, didn't say anything and he's started in again.


I'd give a mild verbal correction/reminder "uh uh such"
more like a negative marker then a correction.
He looks much better then the first video in this topic.
Even your handling is improving


----------



## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'd give a mild verbal correction/reminder "uh uh such"
> more like a negative marker then a correction.
> He looks much better then the first video in this topic.
> Even your handling is improving


Thomas, that's the stuff that caused him problem in the first place. Chris started correcting the dog way to soon and now the dog is having problems getting comfortable on the track. This dog needs to have a lot more positive tracks before any negatives, other than hunger, are added, IMO.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas, that's the stuff that caused him problem in the first place. Chris started correcting the dog way to soon and now the dog is having problems getting comfortable on the track. This dog needs to have a lot more positive tracks before any negatives, other than hunger, are added, IMO.



Christopher

I thought I'd been careful to distinguish the level of "correction" that I meant, more of a gentle reminder. I don't think letting the dog lift it's head is doing him any favor. Especially if you're just going to need to correct it in the future when it is more ingrained. IMHO The problem wasn't the fact that Chris was correcting the dog, it was the level of "correction"


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## Christopher Smith

I understand what your saying, but with this dog, in this situation, I don't think that any type of correction coming from the handler is a good idea.


----------



## Chris Michalek

at what point do we start giving corrections?

Jessie's thought on the vid was very similar to yours and he suggests give the dog a break from tracking for a day or two and not feed him for those days to see if he wants to lift his head again.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Is the idea of letting the dog be handled by someone with a lot of experience in tracking such a crazy idea?

One of the best ways I know to bring the dog onto even keel is to have the experienced tracking trainer, walking next to you and giving you quiet instructions. Someone standing on the side shouting out instructions will only disturb the handler and diistract the handler, and subsequently the dog.

As to "corrections", someone with experience can tell you when to correct or not as "H/she" can READ the dog.

It's something when one falls into a "hole" the only way out of it, whatever the handler opines.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> Is the idea of letting the dog be handled by someone with a lot of experience in tracking such a crazy idea?
> 
> One of the best ways I know to bring the dog onto even keel is to have the experienced tracking trainer, walking next to you and giving you quiet instructions. Someone standing on the side shouting out instructions will only disturb the handler and diistract the handler, and subsequently the dog.
> 
> As to "corrections", someone with experience can tell you when to correct or not as "H/she" can READ the dog.
> 
> It's something when one falls into a "hole" the only way out of it, whatever the handler opines.


Chris Smith did that with me last weekend and it was a big help. The plan is to stick with tracking the way I have been until I have to go to work in a couple of weeks. Then when I return, I'm going to have a former world team member track with me for a few days. She's a club member who trained with Chris Smith for awhile so the communication and goals should be close. At that time, I plan to track the dog on dirt and I expect him to have minor issues, maybe not....

I am considering not tracking today and not feeding him because he lifted his head. 

The one thing I noticed about yesterday was he was not barking at me while I was mixing his food for tracking. Perhaps it was because we tracked in a different place but I want him wanting to track, I didn't see that so much yesterday so maybe he's not hungry enough.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

There's a lot more to tracking than just starving the dog and setting him on the track.

Wind conditions, often different at earth level than face level, climate: dry or damp? Climate: in the evening the heat climbs.

Tracks laid in dew early morning will change as the sun shines on them causing difficulties sometimes for dogs.

Constant rain will make a track "nearly" impossible to scent out for the dog, and, and, and.

Without all the above knowledge, and much more, it's difficult to know how to correct the dog.

It's something that's neglected by dog handlers but is extremely important when "reading" the dog.


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## Keith Jenkins

Very well said Gillian. There are so many things that can effect how well a dog does or doesn't do on a track.


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## Mike Scheiber

If I could offer some advice it would be to keep your videos privet between you and Chris Smith there's been lots of good stuff offered but you need 1 program director you got the to many cooks thing going on here and it not good for you, your dog or Chris Smith ether trust his advice or not let this thread go away for a wile JMO


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## Lance Dior

Gillian Schuler said:


> There's a lot more to tracking than just starving the dog and setting him on the track.
> 
> Wind conditions, often different at earth level than face level, climate: dry or damp? Climate: in the evening the heat climbs.
> 
> Tracks laid in dew early morning will change as the sun shines on them causing difficulties sometimes for dogs.
> 
> Constant rain will make a track "nearly" impossible to scent out for the dog, and, and, and.
> 
> Without all the above knowledge, and much more, it's difficult to know how to correct the dog.
> 
> It's something that's neglected by dog handlers but is extremely important when "reading" the dog.


Gillian, how many schutzhund or schutzund tracking titles have you obtained?


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Lance Dior said:


> Gillian, how many schutzhund of schutzund tracking titles have you obtained?


 
Only one IPO 3 (Briard) plus working trials, level 2 (Landseer) and working dog trials, level 1, Fila Brasileiro

I have however been in an extremely favourable position to benefit from team members by walking behind them during tracking, with the TD giving out a running commentary of what the dog was actually doing in all climatic conditions, from 06.00 hrs to 22 hrs. on all grounds, grass, ploughed land, etc.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Sorry, IPO 3 results in 3 tracking titles in Schutzhund.

But, far more important for me is, "can the dog track or not?"

I track as and when I want to. My goal is, the dog has so much confidence as to "lead" me along the track, whether it be for Schutzhund or my own idea of tracking over land.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Mike Scheiber said:


> If I could offer some advice it would be to keep your videos privet between you and Chris Smith there's been lots of good stuff offered but you need 1 program director you got the to many cooks thing going on here and it not good for you, your dog or Chris Smith ether trust his advice or not let this thread go away for a wile JMO



I thought about that awhile ago but ultimately, this can become quite the epic teaching thread. I know who to listen to and I like the ideas and help from others, that doesn't mean I have to nor will apply it to this dog but I will have other dogs in the future and the people who read this maybe able to apply the advice given to me. Options, I like options.

Right now I am on Chris's program and there is one guy in the club, who's never titled a dog btw- who has stated nearly exactly the same thing that Chris has. 

There is a lot of BS on this board and few real teaching moments, this thread can really be a teaching moment for interested parties as I'm documenting a dog that I ****ed up somewhere early on to the point that other guys in the club didn't know what to do with him as far as tracking goes. 

Chris and Jessie (club helper) were correct, he got corrected early on when he didn't know what he was being corrected for and didn't know how to resolve the correction so it became a WTF for dog and stupid handler.


----------



## Lance Dior

Sorry Gillian I think I had you mixed up with Maggie Fraser


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Be careful now one of us was born in England and the other in Scotland - you're treading on dangerous ground, hey Maggie???

Lots of love from Sassenach!!


----------



## Chris Michalek

I wasn't going to track him today but he was bugging me to go out and eat so I obliged with a track. Today I used kibble soaked in water and sardines in oil. It was pretty mushy but I didn't want him doing much chewing on the track. 

The video is not great but it still shows him working. My intention was a straight ~200 pace track with one corner but as I was in the middle of laying the track a lady came out and shit her dog in my path. So I made a gradual curve and then a corner to the jackpot. It didn't seem to affect the dog at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcJQPHsL_pU


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Having "mucked" up a dog in tracking but still got him through (by the skin of my teeth) to IPO 3, I would say, this dog is on its way to becoming a tracking dog.

I liked what I saw and what I told you is important, keep on a low keel., don't move too fast, too soon. More important is building his confidence in tracking.

Good work, Chris!


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> I thought about that awhile ago but ultimately, this can become quite the epic teaching thread. I know who to listen to and I like the ideas and help from others, that doesn't mean I have to nor will apply it to this dog but I will have other dogs in the future and the people who read this maybe able to apply the advice given to me. Options, I like options.
> 
> Right now I am on Chris's program and there is one guy in the club, who's never titled a dog btw- who has stated nearly exactly the same thing that Chris has.
> 
> There is a lot of BS on this board and few real teaching moments, this thread can really be a teaching moment for interested parties as I'm documenting a dog that I ****ed up somewhere early on to the point that other guys in the club didn't know what to do with him as far as tracking goes.
> 
> Chris and Jessie (club helper) were correct, he got corrected early on when he didn't know what he was being corrected for and didn't know how to resolve the correction so it became a WTF for dog and stupid handler.


**** the dog board epic teaching moments your dog is ****ed up and needs your help if my dog was in the cluster **** yours is in and my coach new I was tracking holding a video camera instead of giving my dog 100% of my attention I would get a foot up my ass so far my dog would be howling. 
I shit you not I concentrate on my dog wile tracking as hard as if I were going through the mountain twisties doing 90 in my Vett whether I'm dealing with problems or not good or bad. Your dog needs your encouragement and help your the team leader there ain't no team when your following him along taping the poor bastard sounds like you've taken his confidence now you need to help put it back not one peep of encouragement than at the end PLATZZZ.
There that's my rant.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Mike Scheiber said:


> **** the dog board epic teaching moments your dog is ****ed up and needs your help if my dog was in the cluster **** yours is in and my coach new I was tracking holding a video camera instead of giving my dog 100% of my attention I would get a foot up my ass so far my dog would be howling.
> I shit you not I concentrate on my dog wile tracking as hard as if I were going through the mountain twisties doing 90 in my Vett whether I'm dealing with problems or not good or bad. Your dog needs your encouragement and help your the team leader there ain't no team when your following him along taping the poor bastard sounds like you've taken his confidence now you need to help put it back not one peep of encouragement than at the end PLATZZZ.
> There that's my rant.



I wasn't paying attention to the camera and that's why the vid isn't great. I make the vids for me not for the board. I do however share them with the board.

I was paying attention to the dog, being mindful to keep tension on the line while keeping my pie hole shut and just letting him do his thing. 

The platz at the end sounds louder than it was. It's the same volume as usual except you don't hear it as well in the other vids.


----------



## susan tuck

I sure like that you are able to keep more and more tension on the line. You are really ingraining things nicely with him at this stage. I would ask Chris about eventually adding serpentines to the track. 

I know what Mike is saying, and I have to say, if I were holding a video camera while tracking my dog at the stage you are at, I have no doubt, I would get a boot up my ass by my coach/trainer for my trouble!  But you are in a different situation, and I understand why you are taping. I think though, I would drag a tracking buddy, or a lay friend or even make my husband come along to video me, so I could fully concentrate on the dog. It's pretty important, and believe it or not, the dog knows by the way you handle the line, whether you are 100% concentrating with him or not.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I beliieve Susan, a few days ago, Chris was doing serpentines, albeit he called them semi-circles!!

Whatever!!!!! Whatever brings you to success, I will welcome, Chris M.


----------



## susan tuck

ooops I missed that!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Maybe Chris did too!!!!!!


----------



## maggie fraser

Gillian Schuler said:


> Be careful now one of us was born in England and the other in Scotland - you're treading on dangerous ground, hey Maggie???
> 
> Lots of love from Sassenach!!


Nah Gillian, give Chris M a wee bit of grief, and look how demanding and upset his 'new' buds get :razz:. I know not all schH personalities are like this, but it is a recurring theme which pops up fairly regularly with them holding centre court.

It's the very reason I let it go before I really got into it over here....too many PErsonalities lol.

Chris, I believe you when you say you're a muti tasker, did you say that already ? I don't believe you can concentrate on the job in hand whilst making a vid at the same time....no matter how good you are. Just thought I'd throw that in there, me not doing schH ' n all .


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Typical Scottish reaction lol


----------



## susan tuck

maggie fraser said:


> Nah Gillian, give Chris M a wee bit of grief, and look how demanding and upset his 'new' buds get :razz:. I know not all schH personalities are like this, but it is a recurring theme which pops up fairly regularly with them holding centre court.
> 
> It's the very reason I let it go before I really got into it over here....too many PErsonalities lol.
> 
> Chris, I believe you when you say you're a muti tasker, did you say that already ? I don't believe you can concentrate on the job in hand whilst making a vid at the same time....no matter how good you are. Just thought I'd throw that in there, me not doing schH ' n all .


Now I'm really confused. I must miss a lot because I didn't see anyone get "upset" at anything you said Maggie!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Susan, neither did I???

Over to you Maggie!

Or, what does it matter?


----------



## maggie fraser

Must be subliminal passive aggression going on with me then lol...

Back to needing tracking help lol....


----------



## Gillian Schuler

As you say, Mggie, back to "need tracking help"

I'll offer Chris Michalek a nice meal in one of our exclusive restaurants in Zofingen if he succeeds his Schutzhund 1, all displicines included.

How he gets here is his buisness!!!


----------



## maggie fraser

Gillian Schuler said:


> As you say, Mggie, back to "need tracking help"
> 
> I'll offer Chris Michalek a nice meal in one of our exclusive restaurants in Zofingen if he succeeds his Schutzhund 1, all displicines included.
> 
> How he gets here is his buisness!!!


If he manages that Gillian, I'll join you how's that  ?


----------



## Gillian Schuler

maggie fraser said:


> If he manages that Gillian, I'll join you how's that  ?


 
Looks like it will be a Cheese Fondue for three :-k


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> I wasn't paying attention to the camera and that's why the vid isn't great. I make the vids for me not for the board. I do however share them with the board.
> 
> I was paying attention to the dog, being mindful to keep tension on the line while keeping my pie hole shut and just letting him do his thing.
> 
> The platz at the end sounds louder than it was. It's the same volume as usual except you don't hear it as well in the other vids.


Well I might as well jump in and be a cook to I think your dog needs encouragement from you I think you need let him know hes doing good and give some confidence and encouragement build him up sooner or later your going to have to make some sort of viable corrections how is that going to work?????? Look at the big picture this is still dog training I don't care if they call it tracking or not YOU have to mold him how the hell you are you going to have split second timing and judgement with that camera in your face and what if there is a legitimate distraction and he looks, example what was he looking at a couple of videos ago when he lifted his head? he went back to work no good boy nothing from you.
I'm only saying this cause I cant imagine I'm stepping on Chris's toes or that he would disagree much with what I'm saying.
Ive heard you preaching at that Ben guy about some basic dog training that ain't no different than this shit so I know you have a understanding about how animal training works. 
I dunno maybe I take tracking more serious I have a crew of same minded resources, I use them constantly they have a sharp eye and we watch and watch out for each other and we collectively problem solve for each other or at the least point out shit that needs to be pointed out. 
I guess I understand videoing for Chris to see but doing it your self JMO ain't fair to your dog.


----------



## Chris Michalek

you're right in a few aspects. Seriously though as far as the camera goes, I just put my arm out there and glanced at it a couple of times. I didn't even know if it was going to turn out or not. It was ok. My eyes were mostly on the dogs.

I'm not doing ANY corrections on the track now and if I were looking for **** up then I would be video taping and tracking. We're just shaping the behavior at this point. I love that the dog is no longer expecting to be feed in a bowl in his crate and I really like that he pushed me to bring him tracking. Tracking seems to be something that he actually wants to do.

I've tracked with guys in the club and they all said encourage him, you guys are a team, talk to him and let him know he's doing a good job etc.... I also think this is why the guys in the club were baffled at why he stopped tracking because I was doing what they said. There was one guy in the club that said everybody was wrong about the dog but he lives 40miles away from me and tracking with him wasn't really an option not at 5:30am when he isn't going to want to get out of bed anyway.

When I met Chris, he said exactly the same thing as my helper buddy has been saying. Leave the dog alone and let him work it out. All of my praise and correction and the general being around him is what made him inhibited for the track. 

When he has clear solid behavior AND confidence in what he's doing then he may be ready for corrections and more team like attitude. For now, he needs to be left alone, it's working and I'm not going to change anything now. 

Did you see him nail the corner? He went over the edge by 3-4 inches and realized the track wasn't there.

So to me, videoing like I did this morning, isn't an issue as long as I'm watching the dog and keeping tension on the line. I haven't been videoing all week when I tracked alone because i want to focus more on the dog but yesterday he lifted his head and I wanted to see if he'd do it again. He didn't.

Right now, anything I tell him may be a distraction and we don't want distractions from me. In the past, if he didn't platz at the end of the track, I would have corrected him. This time, I ignored his behavior and asked him again quietly and without emotion. 

Honestly, I thought both of us did well this morning.


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## Jim Nash

Chris , I think you're a good guy but I've trained with guys like you and you're a huge headache . Excuses , explainations , " you don't know my dog . " , yada ,yada , yada . It's not a huge issue unless you want to make it one but the advice about not videoing and simply concentrating on your dog tracking is very basic and good advice . 

You're getting things started on your dog and that's great , just put the camera down , shut the f*** up and train .


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## susan tuck

Jim Nash said:


> shut the f*** up and train .


HEY NOW!!!! I have that sticker on the glass of my car's rear window!!!!:-D:-D:-D (SHUT UP & TRAIN)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I also think this is why the guys in the club were baffled at why he stopped tracking because I was doing what they said.

These are the "world class competitors" you were telling me about when you decided not to go to our seminar ? 

I agree with Jim.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I also think this is why the guys in the club were baffled at why he stopped tracking because I was doing what they said.
> 
> These are the "world class competitors" you were telling me about when you decided not to go to our seminar ?
> 
> I agree with Jim.


 
two people I've trained with were on the world team a couple of months ago. 

another person, was on the world team a few years ago. 

world team = world class competitor. You disagree with that Jeff?

everybody else minus me, one helper and one other members have competed at the national level. 

One phone call to Chris Smith from one member got me out to Los Angeles to get things straightened out. Chris is another world class guy.

*mod edit*

One weekend with Chris Smith and I'm back on track, do you seriously think you could have done that? Do you believe you have the same level of knowledge and insight that Mr Smith has? You certainly can't work a dog as well as him and you can't teach as well as him. Your recent seminar vids prove that. However I do appreciate your vids because it makes me appreciate who I work with and who I have access to even more than I already do.

*mod edit*


I don't have to post videos. It's not like I'm posting these vids for accolades. I do it so others can learn from my mistakes. I also do it because many of you have better eyes and ideas for tracking.

My focus right now is tracking. I appreciate all of the advice given, even if I don't heed it right away or ever. I do however read and distill of bit of information posted in this thread.


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## susan tuck

Chris Michalek said:


> Did you see him nail the corner? He went over the edge by 3-4 inches and realized the track wasn't there.
> 
> Honestly, I thought both of us did well this morning.


Yes i did see that, and I was impressed. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is as rewarding or builds as much confidence as seeing progress in ourselves and our dogs. 

Now come on, admit it, tracking is kind of growing on you!!!!!

Don't worry about people saying shit just to piss you off, they aren't worth it.


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## Chris Michalek

susan tuck said:


> Yes i did see that, and I was impressed. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is as rewarding or builds as much confidence as seeing progress in ourselves and our dogs.
> 
> Now come on, admit it, tracking is kind of growing on you!!!!!
> 
> Don't worry about people saying shit just to piss you off, they aren't worth it.


I actually enjoy tracking. I was into VST with the rottie but the Mali is my focus at the moment and now that he's getting it, I'M MORE CONFIDENT in him and I know he can sense that. I can see he will be fun to track when he really gets going. The nice thing about that dog is he's a worker and when he gets something he does it with everything he has and he always excels.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris Michalek said:


> The nice thing about that dog is he's a worker and when he gets something he does it with everything he has and he always excels.


Ya coulda fooled me.


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## Chris Michalek

*mod edit*


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## Gerry Grimwood

*mod edit*


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## todd pavlus

*mod edit*
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:. I get a laugh from almost everyone of your posts

_I don't Selena_


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## Chris Michalek

*mod edit*


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## Selena van Leeuwen

STOP knocking eachother. Put the other in your ignore list.


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## susan tuck

Chris Michalek said:


> The nice thing about that dog is he's a worker and when he gets something he does it with everything he has and he always excels.


That's the kind of dog that makes training fun! :lol:


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## Courtney Guthrie

I think this thread could be a good learning tool for OTHER NEWBIES! It has some great advice and the vids help show the progression from a big clusterf*ck to making decent progress with the dog. 

IDK. I'd do some things differently and the latest vids are still to me showing a dog that lacks drive to track. That dog is not enthusiastic about tracking in the least bit IMHO. 

I can see that you are making progress and I appreciate the vids you post!


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## Chris Michalek

please explain why you think he lacks the drive to track.

To me, he's pulling me to the field, he's barking in the truck and when I tell him to SUCH he gets busy. If he's always going to be methodical like that, then I'll take it because at that speed, he won't miss a damn thing.


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## Timothy Stacy

Chris Michalek said:


> two people I've trained with were on the world team a couple of months ago.
> 
> another person, was on the world team a few years ago.
> 
> world team = world class competitor. d.


Yes they are"world class HANDLERS" not helpers or teachers. Jim had a good post. A club member we had before was there for about 6 months caught on good to terminology and was on every web board giving advice, only prob was he couldn't train his own dog. Always more and more impressed by the next helper. Very ****ing annoying guy!


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## Courtney Guthrie

Chris Michalek said:


> please explain why you think he lacks the drive to track.
> 
> To me, he's pulling me to the field, he's barking in the truck and when I tell him to SUCH he gets busy. If he's always going to be methodical like that, then I'll take it because at that speed, he won't miss a damn thing.


He is slow and methodical but it gives ME the impression that he just doesn't want to do it. His tail never one wags, he is NOT excited as far as I can tell in any of the videos. I get my dog out to track and he is DRAGGING me to the track. 

I don't see that with yours, he just doesn't have a happy, drivey dog attitude to him add to that the way he is moving, so slow, like he is afraid that what he is doing is wrong. Very cautious and unsure, unconfident in himself and his handler. 

I want to see a VERY excited high drive for tracking, a dog that REALLY wants to do it. I don't like seeing very slow, mundane trackers to me, it makes the dog look as if they lack drive completely but especially for tracking. I need to slow my dog down still a little on the tracks but I'd rather have to do that than speed him up. 

IDK. maybe I'm way off base here, maybe I'm not. That is just what I see from the videos you posted.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Courtney Guthrie said:


> IDK. maybe I'm way off base here, maybe I'm not. That is just what I see from the videos you posted.


I think you're right, the dog seems lifeless in those videos. If it was the same dog Chris used to compare himself with Fred Hassan and OB training..the dog looked lifeless there as well.

Note to Mods..I'm not knocking this persons training, it is just my own simple opinion and I could be wrong.


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## susan tuck

Courtney, if I may interject something, we must remember not all dogs are going to track the same. I personally would much rather see a slow methodical tracker over a hectic dog any day - and so do judges! Many people confuse drive with hectic. My personal favorite is a very drivey tracking dog, but this is not necessarily better. If Chris pushes this dog too fast, that's what he's probably going to get - a hectic dog, but not necessarily a faster or flashier tracking dog. It goes back to what I was saying about working with what the dog brings, not necessarily what the handler has pictured in his mind. A good example is Wallace Payne's amazing dog, Pedro. Here is his 99pt FH track - off lead. This dog's style is deliberate and methodical, he is all business, and his tail doesn't move, which is just as good as a dog who tracks faster, or what might appear to you to be more drive, but actually is not. We must be careful not to mistake quiet for no drive. Pedro is a very high drive dog who tracks in a very methodical manner. Had Wallace Payne insisted on the dog tracking in a more flashy manner, he probably would not have been as successful. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV7retd4WQU&feature=related


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## Timothy Stacy

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think you're right, the dog seems lifeless in those videos. If it was the same dog Chris used to compare himself with Fred Hassan and OB training..the dog looked lifeless there as well.
> 
> Note to Mods..I'm not knocking this persons training, it is just my own simple opinion and I could be wrong.


When I'm judging a dog heeling, I'd like to see their left turns and about turns without a toy. I also like to see how they heel for 200 feet straight, and not someone slapping a sleeve or doing trained distractions.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Susan. I agree with you. I definetely don't have hectic confused with drive though. I may be a newbie, but I'm not stupid. 

The video you posted, you can tell that dog has drive to track, he is confident and knows what he is doing. Even taking away that he is obviously very trained and competing at a whole different level than Chris' dog, I see a dog that has drive to track and one who simply doesn't when compared. 

I mean to me it is ok to admit that your dog lacks drive in a certain area of the sport you are doing. IDK. That is just what I see. I would do some different things with this dog to get his confidence as well as his drive up. Again, that is just what *I* think from the videos and advice given here etc. 

BUT I don't follow a flavor of the month trainer, I follow what works with ME and MY DOG. That is the most important thing to me!


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## Courtney Guthrie

Timothy Stacy said:


> When I'm judging a dog heeling, I'd like to see their left turns and about turns without a toy. I also like to see how they heel for 200 feet straight, and not someone slapping a sleeve or doing trained distractions.


LOL Then you'd tell me that my heeling is crap! lol I'm tripping over my dog in left turns but the about turns are very nice. lol I struggle with heel work. lol


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## Gerry Grimwood

susan tuck said:


> Had Wallace Payne insisted on the dog tracking in a more flashy manner, he probably would not have been as successful.


Tell me you are not making that a comparison.


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## susan tuck

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Tell me you are not making that a comparison.


I am not comparing Pedro's 99pt track with a green dog's beginning tracks. I used that to illustrate my point that there are different tracking styles, but thanks for at least asking for clarification.

Courtney please rest assured I was not trying to say or imply you are stupid. Many people have been known to confuse hectic for drivey. As far as "flavor of the month" I have no clue who or what you are trying to imply with that remark.

I'll see you guys later, I'm going to club.......DOG club....just in case someone thought I am implying I am going to a bar.....](*,)](*,)](*,):-D:-D\\/\\/:-o[-([--k:-k:-k


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## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> A good example is Wallace Payne's amazing dog, Pedro. Here is his 99pt FH track - off lead. This dog's style is deliberate and methodical, he is all business, and his tail doesn't move, which is just as good as a dog who tracks faster, or what might appear to you to be more drive, but actually is not. We must be careful not to mistake quiet for no drive. Pedro is a very high drive dog who tracks in a very methodical manner. Had Wallace Payne insisted on the dog tracking in a more flashy manner, he probably would not have been as successful.


Susan, 
I'm pretty sure that is a SchH III track not an FH.
The main thing I get, is Wallace doesn't try to force a style on Pedro. He lets Pedro do the tracking, his way. I also suspect that very few dogs are able to track off lead?


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## Timothy Stacy

Courtney Guthrie said:


> LOL Then you'd tell me that my heeling is crap! lol I'm tripping over my dog in left turns but the about turns are very nice. lol I struggle with heel work. lol


Left turns are where it usually shows! If your doing about turns where the dog goes around you then you can't see as much detail although you can if the dog comes around so fast and looks like it hit a brick wall when it gets in position. I'm sure your heeling is fine.


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## Courtney Guthrie

susan tuck said:


> I am not comparing Pedro's 99pt track with a green dog's beginning tracks. I used that to illustrate my point that there are different tracking styles, but thanks for at least asking for clarification.
> 
> Courtney please rest assured I was not trying to say or imply you are stupid. Many people have been known to confuse hectic for drivey. As far as "flavor of the month" I have no clue who or what you are trying to imply with that remark.
> 
> I'll see you guys later, I'm going to club.......DOG club....just in case someone thought I am implying I am going to a bar.....](*,)](*,)](*,):-D:-D\\/\\/:-o[-([--k:-k:-k


The flavor of the month club was NOT directed at you. I understand that some people confuse hectic and drivey. 

I understand what you are saying and can completely see what you were talking about. 

That said, I got a dog to track, so see ya'll later!


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## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> Susan,
> I'm pretty sure that is a SchH III track not an FH.
> The main thing I get, is Wallace doesn't try to force a style on Pedro. He lets Pedro do the tracking, his way. I also suspect that very few dogs are able to track off lead?


Hi Thomas, it was the 2007 North American FH Championship, which he won. I think you are probably right about there being very few dogs that are able to track off lead - and fewer handlers with the balls to let them do it in a championship event, no less!!!!

HEY CHRIS M: One of the guys who comes to our little training group on a semi regular basis is Dave who has a Doberman. He met you when you were down here, he also trains with Christopher. He told me you have a REAL nice dog, and he thought you have done a good job with him.


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## James Downey

What is so magical about the leash and tracking off lead? I saw one dog in a trial do it once. and it was very flat nothing special dog. It looked like a dog, dragging his leash. Nothing special.


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## Lance Dior

James Downey said:


> What is so magical about the leash and tracking off lead? I saw one dog in a trial do it once. and it was very flat nothing special dog. It looked like a dog, dragging his leash. Nothing special.


It shows off the talent and experience of the handler. For example, I have a big ass knot on the end of my tracking line. This is to give me a big cue to start following the dog when he is at the end of the line. I couldn't imagine trying to keep a consistent 30 odd feet behind my dog under the stress of trial etc. off leash


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## James Downey

Lance Dior said:


> It shows off the talent and experience of the handler. For example, I have a big ass knot on the end of my tracking line. This is to give me a big cue to start following the dog when he is at the end of the line. I couldn't imagine trying to keep a consistent 30 odd feet behind my dog under the stress of trial etc. off leash


 
I still do not know why would want to do off lead. But again, I think some dogs would benefit from the crazy asshole behid them not holding the leash.


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## Christopher Smith

Courtney Guthrie said:


> His tail never one wags, he is NOT excited as far as I can tell in any of the videos. I get my dog out to track and he is DRAGGING me to the track.


When the nose is on; the tail turns off. Next time your dog is intent on sniffing something watch his tail. Betcha it not wagging. Here are dogs that are earning perfect or V scores. Notice no tails wagging?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG689zPTp8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AiZDOQC1xU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0WUtlc7Otg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGxlSNCzPiw
:?:Can you find any videos of 100 or V tracks with tails wagging? :?:


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## Lance Dior

James Downey said:


> I still do not know why would want to do off lead. But again, I think some dogs would benefit from the crazy asshole behid them not holding the leash.


If I could I would. If you've got it flaunt it!!!


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## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> Hi Thomas, it was the 2007 North American FH Championship, which he won. I think you are probably right about there being very few dogs that are able to track off lead - and fewer handlers with the balls to let them do it in a championship event, no less!!!!


Hi Susan

I don't see any change of cover. It looked like the whole track was tall grass?


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## Mike Scheiber

Lance Dior said:


> If I could I would. If you've got it flaunt it!!!


Hell Yah


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## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Susan
> 
> I don't see any change of cover. It looked like the whole track was tall grass?


Hi Thomas, I wasn't there, I see on the video what you see. I did count 4 articles. I couldn't tell where they crossed a road and I couldn't differentiate where there was a change of terrain. I chalk it up to the video being not the best quality, so maybe I just couldn't see where the road was or the change in terrain.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Christopher Smith said:


> When the nose is on; the tail turns off. Next time your dog is intent on sniffing something watch his tail. Betcha it not wagging. Here are dogs that are earning perfect or V scores. Notice no tails wagging?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG689zPTp8k
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AiZDOQC1xU
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0WUtlc7Otg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGxlSNCzPiw
> :?:Can you find any videos of 100 or V tracks with tails wagging? :?:


You know what, you are right. I watched my dog track last night and realized that there is little to NO tail movement, so that was MY bad. I obviously haven't paid much attention to his tail or any dog's tail when he is tracking. I'll post the vid of him today. He did get lost in a couple curves as I've never done curves, serpentines or anything else with him, BUT he nailed the corner and overall did great. 

I on the other hand need to lay my tracks better and remember where the hell they are. Also, I think it is time to start tracking with a tracking line.


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## Mike Scheiber

Courtney Guthrie said:


> You know what, you are right. I watched my dog track last night and realized that there is little to NO tail movement, so that was MY bad. I obviously haven't paid much attention to his tail or any dog's tail when he is tracking. I'll post the vid of him today. He did get lost in a couple curves as I've never done curves, serpentines or anything else with him, BUT he nailed the corner and overall did great.
> 
> I on the other hand need to lay my tracks better and remember where the hell they are. Also, I think it is time to start tracking with a tracking line.


what sort of tracking are you doing


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## Courtney Guthrie

Schutzhund tracking.


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