# Rottweiler ???



## Dee Harrison (Apr 16, 2009)

I've read a number of threads on this forum about specific breeds that either can, or no longer can, do the work that they were bred for. There are threads about the mal, gsd, dobe and ab, but I've searched and haven't found any, specifically, about the rottweiler. My questions are:
1. Are there any reputable working line rottweiler breeders producing dogs with stable temperment that can do manwork? If so, who are they?
2. Is the rottweiler any different to train than any of the other working breeds?
3. Rottweiler breed descriptions often say "...the rottweiler will challenge you (the owner) at some point in its development." What does that mean?
4. Are there any rottweilers earning protection sport titles nationally?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

stay away from the Rottweiler. Get a good shepherd.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

The Rotti breed has really grown on me. I like the way a well bred Rotti works and their versatility.... well I guess I can only speak for the Jenecks line since they are the only working Rottis ive seen work. I get the opportunity to see them work at our club and they are well balanced dogs. Lots of prey (for the breed), lots of fight/aggression, yet biddable dogs.

But over all, a well bred rotti is relatively harder to find than a GSD or Mal, and when you do find one you will pay for it.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dee you NEED to see my friend in Maryland. Andy is producing nice working stuff and stuff I haven't seen in a while! Windywoods K9, www.windywoodsk9.com He's down in Trappe, Maryland about 3 hours from you. Might well be worth the call!!!!


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

http://www.redwoodkrest.com/about/index.htm

Have a look at the above site, the breeder certainly knows his stuff and has a strong working background from Europe.

After 21yrs of Rotts I have just switched to working line GSD. With Rotts the show and working lines are closer together, as oppossed to the very distinct differences with the GSD working and show lines.

My advice is unless you know how to test a bitch (mother) go for a breeding pair with strong working lines on both sides. Sch.1 doesn't really cut it with many breeding bitches. In GSDs it's less relevant as their can be so many working titles in the pedigree. Rotts can take up 4yrs to mature and not clever if the temperature gets above 60 degrees either.

They are a fantastic breed, trying doing some research on the ADRK website, but hard work even if you find the right litter.

Good Luck

Mark


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## Dee Harrison (Apr 16, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dee you NEED to see my friend in Maryland. Andy is producing nice working stuff and stuff I haven't seen in a while! Windywoods K9, www.windywoodsk9.com He's down in Trappe, Maryland about 3 hours from you. Might well be worth the call!!!!


Thanks Howard. I am already familiar with windywoodsK9 and have been to his website. Meng, I have also been to the Jenecks website, thanks. I am not particularly looking for a rott, but am continuing to research breeds. On this website alone there is a plethora of information on the virtues of the gsd and mal, as well as quite a bit of information against the dobe and ab. I've visited dobe and ab websites to learn more about them. Being a newb I don't know enough about any of them. The rott hasn't been given a lot of discussion on the wdf that I can locate. I've been to a rott website and when it comes to working line rotts they are sounding the death knell as with working dobes, i.e., they don't make them like they used to! I've also learned a little about the bouvier from you Howard and a little about the airedale terrier from Don.


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

Want to see a great Rottweiler look up Anton Vom Hein. Had a grand daughter of his, not a "show dog" but wow power and speed.


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## Sammy Walker (Jan 27, 2009)

Contact Amanda Hoskinson in Fla. She has been in the working rottweilers for several years.She has took several to SCH.3.She is a great person and honest.Amanda will steer you in the right direction.Her e-mail is [email protected];-)


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Dee if you are interested in working dogs and are looking for a dog to do sport I still suggest looking into the AB. I have one that is training for Mondio. I also have an Airedale from Don that is a sport prospect, possibly for Mondio. There are different "types" of ABs and everybody has their own goals for breeding them, if you are interested in the breed I recommend them and can put you in the right direction if you are looking for a sport dog. Tracey Delin of KIWS (Knights In White Satin) ABs: http://www.kiwsabs.com/dogs/ourdogs.htm is a member here and just posted about having two males available from a nice working bred litter.

Good ABs are out there, right now there are quite a few really nice breedings to look at for working dogs. Here are a few places to look for working/sport ABs:
http://www.norcalsbulldogs.com/main.html

http://wachhunde.tripod.com 


http://www.workingabsofca.moonfruit.com/

The best dog for you depends on what you want in a dog and what your goals are. Happy hunting


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

much harder to find a good rott vs a gsd/mal/dutch
but there are some that can still do the work
will they win nationals? probably never

you are right to ask about working
they need to be worked very different than herders usually
the ones i have seen have a very high defense drive and low prey drive (compared to herders)


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## Kevin Barrett (Dec 16, 2009)

Rotts are certainly not as easy to train or find good prospects for working as a mal or GSD, but well worth the hunt. Princehaus and old world kennel are both great breeders. Just like any other breed to find the right one you need to know where to look. Stay away from American, serbian and chec rotts, beautiful but usually don't work very well on a average. Look at ADRK german rotts from reputable American breeders. You risk a good chance of being sent junk if you import and don't have a good relationship with the breeder. Look at code of ethic breeders. They are out there.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Dee Harrison said:


> 1. Are there any reputable working line rottweiler breeders producing dogs with stable temperment that can do manwork? If so, who are they?
> 2. Is the rottweiler any different to train than any of the other working breeds?
> 3. Rottweiler breed descriptions often say "...the rottweiler will challenge you (the owner) at some point in its development." What does that mean?
> 4. Are there any rottweilers earning protection sport titles nationally?


Yes there are Rottweilers who can still excel at the work. I would look at vom Waldbach kennels and anything with Herrenholz, vom Haus Anin, Schloss Hexental, etc. There are very few kennels here breeding for much more than show, which is the problem with the breed. 

Yes Rottweilers are very different. I have one Malinois and 4 Rottweilers right now. The thing I like about the Rottweilers is they have much better character overall, as far as what I like around the house and on the field. Much different personality than the Mali's or the GSDs I've had in the past. The Malinois have a lot more nerve you have to balance out in the training. The drive is over the top but its more of a balancing act. 

Rottweilers handle the correction better. With Malis you can get handler aggression or shutting down if its not handled properly. I think a heavy handler can get away with more with a Rottweiler since they are more forgiving. 

You won't see many Rottweilers competing high level. Amanda is one of the few who does so consistently. Most get tired of the BS in the breed itself (the people, not the dogs) and have left and gotten Mals. Or they get tired of searching for good dogs.... it is MUCH easier to find a good malinois, that will have less health issues for a cheaper price than it is to find a good Rottweiler. 

Personally, the reason I added a Malinois is it was more of a sure thing. I love my Rottweilers and will always have several. The personality, character, natural aggression, etc are all things I enjoy about training the breed. But if I want to get on the FCI World Team, I have a better chance with a Mali. 

As far as the "challenging" the handler, if you never put the dog in its place you will deal with some growling issues that can escalate. You can get this in other breeds but Rottweilers tend to run like clockwork when in pet homes, they hit their growling stage right around the time they get their growth hormones in. I had issues with this with my first one but afterwards I just stayed on top of all my dogs and do not have any issues anymore.


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## Dee Harrison (Apr 16, 2009)

Dana Williams said:


> As far as the "challenging" the handler, if you never put the dog in its place you will deal with some growling issues that can escalate. You can get this in other breeds but Rottweilers tend to run like clockwork when in pet homes, they hit their growling stage right around the time they get their growth hormones in. I had issues with this with my first one but afterwards I just stayed on top of all my dogs and do not have any issues anymore.


Thanks Dana. This was something that I didn't understand and it sounded like something that I used to hear about dobermans many years ago, that they will turn on the owner (which isn't true). I had a fila who wouldn't accept my new born daughter (he was growling at her) so I returned him to the kennel that I got him from (he was 2 years old). He was also beginning to display dominance behavior towards my older daughter with growling and nipping. It was my fault though because I didn't know anything about proper training, socializing or the need to establish pack structure. From your statement, again, I see that it it is the responsibility of the owner to "stay on top" of the dogs with proper training, socialization and to establish correct pack structure. My previous dog was a liability waiting to happen as a result of my ignorance! So, for now, research and learn is what I'm doing. Thanks again.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

My question is I been looking for a rotti for a long time and cant find any that can promise real life scenario. There are some good sporting ones out there but would like to find one for real life application ( police type stuff ). Does anybody know of any that will guarantee this type of workability?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> My question is I been looking for a rotti for a long time and cant find any that can promise real life scenario. There are some good sporting ones out there but would like to find one for real life application ( police type stuff ). *Does anybody know of any that will guarantee this type of workability?*


 Harry how do you do that with any breed? How can a breeder control the things that go on in a household which are outside their control???


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Harry

I dont want to start a fire but do you offer that guarantee? If so, can I buy a pup train it for a 6-9 months, see if its a good or just ok dog and then return it for another if it doesnt work out?


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Dana Williams said:


> As far as the "challenging" the handler, if you never put the dog in its place you will deal with some growling issues that can escalate. You can get this in other breeds but Rottweilers tend to run like clockwork when in pet homes, they hit their growling stage right around the time they get their growth hormones in. I had issues with this with my first one but afterwards I just stayed on top of all my dogs and do not have any issues anymore.


Dana,
How did you do it to overcome handler challenge issue ? Thanks.

Colin


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Colin Chin said:


> Dana,
> How did you do it to overcome handler challenge issue ? Thanks.
> 
> Colin



The first dog I made the mistake of allowing growling and thinking it was an acceptable part of the breed character. Then the growling started escalating into other areas. At the time my "behaviorist" books were telling me to do all the great things of entering doors before the dog, not allowing them on the couch, alpha rolling when their young, etc. Not exactly helpful stuff with an intact male Rottweiler who was regularly going to events where he had to be around people and other animals. After months of getting worse and worse, he eventually went after another person during an event and on the advice of the person who imported him, I learned how to properly choke a dog out. After that I took the attitude that I wasn't accepting any aggression from my Rottweilers - no growling, no lunging, no acting aggressive to other people or dogs. Just a zero tolerance policy. 

With my next Rottweiler I nipped it in the butt early so I didn't have to ever go through that again. When she was 9-10 weeks old I set up a growling scenario with a bone. She growled, I scruffed her and basically scared her pretty good, put her down, gave her back the bone, petted, her, walked away. She just turned 6 years old and never had another growling issue. 

Nor have any of the others. I think it comes down to how you carry yourself and being consistent in your expectations. I know a lot of people let their dogs growl and it works for them, but since the first dog it became a peeve of mine so they all know its pretty unacceptable. 

I also know a lot of people get a kick out of how handler aggressive their dogs are and what "monsters" they have at the end of the leash. For me its just not an option. I don't like handler aggression so its pretty black and white. I think people start having problems when they make excuses ("oh well I leaned too much and got in his space so it was my fault") or when they are getting off on seeing their dog be tough ("oh well I'm the only one who can handle a dog THIS tough"). 

Just my 2 cents. Much easier to handle early on than to do after the dog has a history of getting away with being aggressive.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Dana Williams said:


> With my next Rottweiler I nipped it in the butt early so I didn't have to ever go through that again. When she was 9-10 weeks old I set up a growling scenario with a bone. She growled, I scruffed her and basically scared her pretty good, put her down, gave her back the bone, petted, her, walked away. She just turned 6 years old and never had another growling issue.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. Much easier to handle early on than to do after the dog has a history of getting away with being aggressive.


Hi Dana,
Do you pet or touch your Rottie when she's eating now ? Or, once you put the dish down, you walk away ? 

OT, I play tug with my pup. When she's in possession of the tug meaning the tug is under her but she's not biting or holding it. I go near wanted to take the tug so that we coiuld play again. I notice she growls a little. At first I was quite apprehensive but last week I decided to just take it away from her even she gives out a bit of growling. She was ok, no sympton of snapping me. Am I doing the right thing ?

Colin


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## Dee Harrison (Apr 16, 2009)

Dana Williams said:


> With my next Rottweiler I nipped it in the butt early so I didn't have to ever go through that again. When she was 9-10 weeks old I set up a growling scenario with a bone. She growled, I scruffed her and basically scared her pretty good, put her down, gave her back the bone, petted, her, walked away. She just turned 6 years old and never had another growling issue.
> .


Did this correction negatively impact her in bitework later on, or in any protection work?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So who has a Rottweiler that is doing K-9 Patrol and Narcotics Detection? I know of one...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You have to decide, do I want a Rottweiler or do I want a breed that I can mix with the best of the best maybe. It all depends on you. You can buy a Malinois or a GSD and fail both breeds, although breeds are both top notch.

If you really love Rottweilers, search for a good one. A good Rottweiler, well chosen, will work well for you, but a GSD or Malionis, chosen for reasons of performance prestige, might fail you.

I love training. All I require to know from trialling is that my dog has proved what I knew he had in him.

A good Kennel

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/46797/Vero-vom-Holzbruenneli


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Dana,
> Do you pet or touch your Rottie when she's eating now ? Or, once you put the dish down, you walk away ?
> 
> OT, I play tug with my pup. When she's in possession of the tug meaning the tug is under her but she's not biting or holding it. I go near wanted to take the tug so that we coiuld play again. I notice she growls a little. At first I was quite apprehensive but last week I decided to just take it away from her even she gives out a bit of growling. She was ok, no sympton of snapping me. Am I doing the right thing ?
> ...


I don't make a point to annoy and push the dog constantly. I know I wouldn't want to be bothered every time I eat so I don't make an issue of it. When I do choose to make an issue, I make sure I am always in a position to win whatever battle I pick. 

For sleeve I want the dog to possess from the decoy. So I usually don't pick up the sleeve unless its an obedience thing I'm working on. If its a tug, I should be able to pick up and give back no matter what. The way I see it is I should be able to take whatever from my dogs at any point in time. You find the value of this when its cooked chicken bones they find in the garbage. 

As I said, a lot of people are fine with their dog growling at them. I am not one of those people. I don't care what the reason they are growling. I don't know the age of your dog or the history to say if what you are doing is right or wrong but I would be worried at the fact that you say you were apprehensive about your dog growling. If you are scared of your own dog, that is a problem that needs addressed.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Dee Harrison said:


> Did this correction negatively impact her in bitework later on, or in any protection work?


No. If you do corrections fair and clear for the dog to understand, it doesn't affect the relationship with the dog or later training. She is SchH1, BST, Fr Ring Brevet and is going to get her Fr Ring 1 whenever another trial comes up.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Dana Williams said:


> I don't make a point to annoy and push the dog constantly. I know I wouldn't want to be bothered every time I eat so I don't make an issue of it. When I do choose to make an issue, I make sure I am always in a position to win whatever battle I pick.
> 
> For sleeve I want the dog to possess from the decoy. So I usually don't pick up the sleeve unless its an obedience thing I'm working on. If its a tug, I should be able to pick up and give back no matter what. The way I see it is I should be able to take whatever from my dogs at any point in time. You find the value of this when its cooked chicken bones they find in the garbage.
> 
> As I said, a lot of people are fine with their dog growling at them. I am not one of those people. I don't care what the reason they are growling. I don't know the age of your dog or the history to say if what you are doing is right or wrong but I would be worried at the fact that you say you were apprehensive about your dog growling. If you are scared of your own dog, that is a problem that needs addressed.


Morning Dana,
About me been apprehensive at first was that I was a little scared at first then I also worried that if I correct her not sure will I ruin her or not. It was a low growl. Then, I told myself, to heck her growling, so I just braved myself to take away the tug. My pup is 10 weeks old now. I hear both ways of fixing this growling problem. One is to deal with it once and for all. Another is let the pup/dog eat in peace. But, your example of the dog find a COOKED chicken bone really rings a bell in my head. Thanks your advice. Please feel free to advice.

Colin


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

at 10wks old why not just trade the toy for another toy or treat, and then praise?


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Meng Xiong said:


> at 10wks old why not just trade the toy for another toy or treat, and then praise?


Meng Xiong,
Strange thing in that it has no issue with tennis balls. Only tug (towel).

Colin


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Meng Xiong said:


> at 10wks old why not just trade the toy for another toy or treat, and then praise?


There's several ways to teach an "off" command to objects with zero conflict. I'm trying to address an underlying issue which is a dog that feels is acceptable to growl at its owner. I'd rather do this at 10 weeks when the dog is small and easy to control, rather than 2 years old and 90+ lbs. The bone was just an issue that was easy to set up and know she was going to growl. Its not really about being able to take food from the dog, its just a matter of instilling early on that growling isn't going to fly. My dogs don't growl for grooming procedures (nails, ears), veterinary procedures (blood draws, temperature, etc) toys, food, etc. Thats not to say they are that way with all humans, but they definitely are when I am around. 

Thats just my own opinion though. I would rather deal with it once when its a simple scruffing over a bone then deal with it with a 90lb male I have to choke out for going after a judge. I think dogs that think they can growl over one thing (possession of toys/food), will eventually graduate to bigger issues (being touched, space, etc). Thats just been my experience though.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Awesome Dana, please try and get video of that ring 1 on your rotti. I know you are good at getting those videos but would love to show some clients here that a well bred rott has what it takes. Love when sports see breeds outside of their normal!  Go get em!


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Amanda Caldron said:


> Awesome Dana, please try and get video of that ring 1 on your rotti. I know you are good at getting those videos but would love to show some clients here that a well bred rott has what it takes. Love when sports see breeds outside of their normal!  Go get em!


Haha, you know I'm all about the videos. My bitch isn't super over the top but she is a good dog and probably one of the better working bitches out there. I don't doubt she can do a Ring 1 if I can get my handling together and convince her that its okay to bite legs too. Just waiting for a Southern California club to host a trial.

Check out my new Rottweiler too. A good example of what a really GOOD Rottweiler can bring to the table. Had I known I would have gotten a dog like him I never would have gotten the Malinois. He should be competitive at any level against any breed, but its a shame he's starting so late. Hoping to have his SchH3 done before Nationals at the end of the year which is going to be a huge rush. He took to the suit work right away too but I need to focus on one sport with him because of control issues and limited time. But he's a super fun dog and the phases are slowly coming together. More videos to come


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Harry
> 
> I dont want to start a fire but do you offer that guarantee? If so, can I buy a pup train it for a 6-9 months, see if its a good or just ok dog and then return it for another if it doesnt work out?


No fire started Will


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Harry how do you do that with any breed? How can a breeder control the things that go on in a household which are outside their control???


Howard maybe put wrongfully in words. I guess is there any breeders that have a higher probalitity of turning out strong working dogs with multiple years of proving this, I guess is a better way of putting it maybe.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I guess there are no one left with any kind of proving track record for producing work rotti pups? Is there anybody new with at least a five or more year track record out there ? will be looking and have already been looking for some time now but nothing really out there. Will be looking for a serious purchase down the road so if anybody has something or knows of somebody that might have something exceptional please hit me up. Thanks for everybodys time that has or will assist in finding one of the old time greats to buy and raise as a pup.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I've already named the ones I would look at. vom Waldbach is consistently competing dogs and producing nice dogs for sport. Vom Schloss Hexental, Herrenholz, vom Haus Anin all if you are looking to import, they are consistently producing nice working dogs as well.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Dana Williams said:


> I've already named the ones I would look at. vom Waldbach is consistently competing dogs and producing nice dogs for sport. Vom Schloss Hexental, Herrenholz, vom Haus Anin all if you are looking to import, they are consistently producing nice working dogs as well.


Not opposed to importing but like to keep USA money in the USA if at all possible just because of the fact of the euro vs usa dollar sucks and has sucked for a while now. But Dana if you don't mind taking the extra minute to post these websites I will make a serious effort to look at them and if I do decide to buy from them in the future I will drop your name as the one that recommended them if you like. Thanks again Dana.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

http://www.hexental.be/index.html 

Check out the males, Benno and Uber v. Schloss Hexental and Uran du Detroit Lancaster. Nice working dogs, all of them. My Benno pup (out of Uran’s littermate Ushi) is turning out VERY nice. Dealing with Guy was easy, if not verbose. 

http://www.rottweiler-vom-herrenholz.de/

and 

 http://www.vom-hause-anin.de/


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Hey Jessica, I think we met at the ARV show in Vegas a few months back? I was typing for the event. I really liked your Benno pup....nice male. How's his bitework coming along? 

Vom Waldbach doesn't have a website. You can google his dogs. His foundation bitch and e-mail is here:

http://www.members.shaw.ca/rottweilers/anja.html

Not sure if the e-mail is current. He's also got his dogs listed on Working-Dog.eu. 


Vom Herrenholz
http://www.rottweiler-vom-herrenholz.de/

Produced nice dogs consistently, most recently the IFR Winner this past year Ety v Herrenholz.


Vom Haus Anin
http://www.vom-hause-anin.de/

Some of their famous dogs include David D's famous dog Hark v Haus Anin and consistently producing many others. 

Would also add vom Brandenburger Tor Kennels. I've seen a few nice dogs out of that kennel....most recently a bitch I would LOVE to buy named Unja vom Brandenburgor Tor. She has one heck of a courage test! 

http://www.rottweiler-vom-brandenburger-tor.de/


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Thanks ladies will keep this all in mind.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Dana Williams said:


> Hey Jessica, I think we met at the ARV show in Vegas a few months back? I was typing for the event. I really liked your Benno pup....nice male. How's his bitework coming along?


Hi Dana, I do remember you well! Nice to "see" you here. Sorry I didn't get a chance to say good bye...:razz: 

Hav is doing very well. Has really matured in the last couple of months and his bite work is coming along quickly now. Great focus and quick to learn; one of the most stable dogs I have ever owned. He will replace Quinn as my competition dog, and will do very well. He will be entered in the show in March, 12-18 month class.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

The ARV show with Bill? I'm not attending that event... but will be going up to the BARK show next month to do a BST. You going to try Quinn on his BST again? Its in mid-February.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

We may need a little more work on the measuring stuff... But it is a consideration. I planned to finish him in SCH with a III before attempting the ZtP again, but I may start by putting him in a few conformation shows. He should do well there...

Perhaps I will enter Havok in that one as well. I wasn't aware of it coming up.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> I guess there are no one left with any kind of proving track record for producing work rotti pups? Is there anybody new with at least a five or more year track record out there ? will be looking and have already been looking for some time now but nothing really out there. Will be looking for a serious purchase down the road so if anybody has something or knows of somebody that might have something exceptional please hit me up. Thanks for everybodys time that has or will assist in finding one of the old time greats to buy and raise as a pup.


I'm partial to the Jenecks dogs and they certainly have the track record you are looking for, in work and show.

www.Jenecks.com

Eckart doesn't have a strong internet pressence, nor do I think he cares, but just call him.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jessica Kromer said:


> We may need a little more work on the measuring stuff... But it is a consideration. I planned to finish him in SCH with a III before attempting the ZtP again, but I may start by putting him in a few conformation shows. He should do well there...
> 
> Perhaps I will enter Havok in that one as well. I wasn't aware of it coming up.



you failed the ZtP? If you can't do that, how can you do schH?


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> you failed the ZtP? If you can't do that, how can you do schH?


Because SchH doesn't require the hands-on measurements that a ZtP requires. The dog is social enough to get through the temperament portions of schutzhund and already has a BH.

And a lot of judges are pushing dogs for their BST/ZTP measurements. Anton Spindler did my dog's BST a year ago and he slapped the dog on the ass after each measurement, straddled him to do the chest circumference, stared and postured on the eye and teeth check, etc. Luckily the dog is super sound but I wouldn't expect an average Rottweiler to make it through a typical Spindler BST.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Dana Williams said:


> Because SchH doesn't require the hands-on measurements that a ZtP requires. The dog is social enough to get through the temperament portions of schutzhund and already has a BH.
> 
> And a lot of judges are pushing dogs for their BST/ZTP measurements. Anton Spindler did my dog's BST a year ago and he slapped the dog on the ass after each measurement, straddled him to do the chest circumference, stared and postured on the eye and teeth check, etc. Luckily the dog is super sound but I wouldn't expect an average Rottweiler to make it through a typical Spindler BST.



I know what a ZtP is... I know about the measurements etc.... but I didn't know Anton is slapping dogs. If I ever go for a BST/ZtP I'm avoiding him. I think a slap on my dogs ass would result in a assful of teeth.

BTW- I really dislike Anton Spindler. I met him a couple of years ago, I have a lot to say about him in private.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Good for you Chris, slapping a dog in the ass and still has his upper extremities thats pretty impressive or the dogs are to passive or both maybe.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I know what a ZtP is... I know about the measurements etc.... but I didn't know Anton is slapping dogs. If I ever go for a BST/ZtP I'm avoiding him. I think a slap on my dogs ass would result in a assful of teeth.
> 
> BTW- I really dislike Anton Spindler. I met him a couple of years ago, I have a lot to say about him in private.


Anton gave a spiel at the Judge's dinner about how the world is not friendly to the breed and there is no place for aggression in Rottweilers anymore, etc etc etc. He was extremely hard on our BST dogs. In the group he had a bunch of people descend upon the dog, then he grabbed me by the shoulder and shook me so hard he had to catch me from falling. Then he decided to do a noise test and without telling me, he took a bottle filled with rocks and threw it across the ring ... which my 120lb Rottweiler promptly went flying after to chew on since thats his favorite type of toy....dragging me with him! And you know what a standard BST drive looks like.... when the decoy when to lock up he screamed "drive! drive! drive" and wanted the dogs carried across the ring. Never seen such long drives for a breed test. Personally I was disappointed my dog didn't teach him a lesson on the measurements but the dog is a service dog for his owner so it reasons that he is good with everything Anton threw at him. 

I've helped do the paperwork for a few BST since then and the mentality of really testing the temperament on the measurements seems to be becoming the norm. They don't want to accept growling and if the dog looks uncomfortable, they want to push it. IMO the BST should be done with it in mind that it IS a Rottweiler and they may have some space issues. The dog should be trained to accept measuring but shouldn't get straddled by the judge in the process. 

Jessica, if you ever want to work measurements, just let me know. I'm always down to help with that kind of thing.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Thanks Dana, I will be taking you up on that.

Chris, the dog is a nice dog and has a VERY strong temperament. He is stable in public and fairly friendly, but is of the opinion that if he stays out of your space, you should stay out of his. He didn't like the judge wanting to wrap his arms around his body; don't blame him, I wouldn't have wanted a stranger to do it either. Doesn't make it OK, but it is what it is. We went back to the club and showed him that whether he likes it or not, he has to stand for it. He is plenty social for any temperament test a SCH judge will put him through and is great with our family and friends. 

Meng, you know how I feel about those Jenecks dogs. I will be going back to him for a female next ;-) :grin:. Quinn is one of the more serious Rotts I have known. I am told by many of the older Rott people that he is very much a throwback to Oleo. 

Harry, add Jenecks to your USA breeder list.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I saw a Jenecks dog about 9 years ago at a club in Philadelphia. Nice dog..compact, driven and very fast. Would have loved to own that dog. If they still breed like that it would definitely be worth looking into.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

You don't have to defend your dog. I wrongly assumed, it wouldn't attack out of the blind or something.

If Anton did to my dog what he did to yours, I would have failed and Anton would have a chest full of rottweiler teeth.



Jessica Kromer said:


> Thanks Dana, I will be taking you up on that.
> 
> Chris, the dog is a nice dog and has a VERY strong temperament. He is stable in public and fairly friendly, but is of the opinion that if he stays out of your space, you should stay out of his. He didn't like the judge wanting to wrap his arms around his body; don't blame him, I wouldn't have wanted a stranger to do it either. Doesn't make it OK, but it is what it is. We went back to the club and showed him that whether he likes it or not, he has to stand for it. He is plenty social for any temperament test a SCH judge will put him through and is great with our family and friends.
> 
> ...


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## Chip Ditto (Dec 14, 2009)

I agree with Dana on many of her posts. There are still some lines that possess working ability and power in the man work. I have been in the breed for many years and took me some time to realize which lines truely possess these abilities. There are many titled rottweilers out there who just dont have what I look for, not to say these are bogus titles just mostly well trained dogs. I have seen many dogs, not just rottweilers with no titles that have true natural abilities. One example, there are several groups that train in my neighboring Memphis, Tn . Most are PP trainers who have some real beast in their group. Some have actually came to our sch club over the years. Problem is, these beasts , when have pressure such as a retrieve, or serious tracking training, most tend to fall apart. 
Sorry to ramble, anyway, after many years of training and dealing with the breed , I have found that the lines I like and possess real trainability, a little sharper nerves, good prey or play drive, and have the agression to do the man work contain Aki V D Peeler Hutte, Arri Von Hertener Wappen, Jero V Kressbach, and there are others that I have not mentioned . But these are the ones that I have had direct contact and good luck with. The lines that Dana mentioned earlier go mostly back to these dogs. 
My old male carries these lines and was probably the first real rottweiler I owned. He is 11 yrs old now , but here are a few links to him.
http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/dynprofile.asp?ID=198SCU5B79

http://www.seeuferhauserottweilers.com.au/frozen-semen/ass/

Ass is a tough , hard dog , but he was really trainable, he knows how to learn. And also produced dogs of his likeness. 
So dont give up on finding a good rottweiler, they are out there, just have to do your homework and see the dogs for yourself, dont just take someones word that they have a good dog or know of a good dog. JMHO


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

"Anton gave a spiel at the Judge's dinner about how the world is not friendly to the breed and there is no place for aggression in Rottweilers anymore, etc etc etc. "



This is why we see less and less Rottweilers making the grade for police and true pp type work. If you want a dog that anyone can snuggle with buy a Lab


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Chip Ditto said:


> I agree with Dana on many of her posts. There are still some lines that possess working ability and power in the man work. I have been in the breed for many years and took me some time to realize which lines truely possess these abilities. There are many titled rottweilers out there who just dont have what I look for, not to say these are bogus titles just mostly well trained dogs. I have seen many dogs, not just rottweilers with no titles that have true natural abilities. One example, there are several groups that train in my neighboring Memphis, Tn . Most are PP trainers who have some real beast in their group. Some have actually came to our sch club over the years. Problem is, these beasts , when have pressure such as a retrieve, or serious tracking training, most tend to fall apart.
> Sorry to ramble, anyway, after many years of training and dealing with the breed , I have found that the lines I like and possess real trainability, a little sharper nerves, good prey or play drive, and have the agression to do the man work contain Aki V D Peeler Hutte, Arri Von Hertener Wappen, Jero V Kressbach, and there are others that I have not mentioned . But these are the ones that I have had direct contact and good luck with. The lines that Dana mentioned earlier go mostly back to these dogs.
> My old male carries these lines and was probably the first real rottweiler I owned. He is 11 yrs old now , but here are a few links to him.
> http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/dynprofile.asp?ID=198SCU5B79
> ...


Nice sounding dog and nice pedigree (Quantus was an impressive dog). I agree on the lines you mention back to Arri (also Basko) and Aki. i'd also add in Ken Von Sternbogen.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Andy Larrimore said:


> "Anton gave a spiel at the Judge's dinner about how the world is not friendly to the breed and there is no place for aggression in Rottweilers anymore, etc etc etc. "
> 
> 
> 
> This is why we see less and less Rottweilers making the grade for police and true pp type work. If you want a dog that anyone can snuggle with buy a Lab


 
I would be willing to bet that Spindler does not give as difficult a BST/ZTP test to dogs in his own country. I have heard many times (and even from an ADRK judge) that they were told to make the tests harder when they come over here to judge.


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