# Bark and hold



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Do you like your home protection dogs or personal protection dogs to do bark and hold? I'm leaning toward not bothering with it for this young male pup I am working with.


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

I like the bark on command in general and it would be nice if the dog was needed in a real life situation if the situation itself can be diffused before a dog would inflict damage that would end in a court date.

I have heard there is a big business that's been rolling for women's dogs being taught to do nothing more than bark aggressively. I know Tauren was a silent dog before, he's now more vocal and in any real world situation, I want the barker.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

It's a good question... because I think a dog naturally will be silent when away from his territory. Mine is. A big threat display is usually territorial aggression.

When a dog attacks for defense or apprehension, they oftentimes just bite. The barking usually comes because we prevent them from biting with a line and then agitate them. The IPO bark and hold is an obedience exercise more than anything and from a lot of dogs I have seen very weak threat displays even in national competition. A person would have to be scared of dogs to really feel intimidated by some of that stuff. Whereas I've seen territorial threat displays by foo-foo pet dogs that look positvely vicious, like the little fluffer is freaking mad insane and hell bent on tearing the living stuffing out of you (of course it's a bluff). If you can get that in the bark and hold, then by all means go for it. But just a typical IPO "pow - pow - pow - pow - pow..." lame.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

No. I see no real advantage of a B&H dog for a non LE owner. I'd rather have a 100% proofed, reliable under any condition, immediate recall. (and I know there is nothing 100% before you say anything but you can get real close).

I think a bite dog needs to be handled like a gun. If you aren't prepared to pull the trigger, don't pull the gun. If you pull the gun, you better be planning on killing what your aiming at.

If you release your dog, the planned objective should be a bite on the subject. If you don't plan on a bite, or you aren't sure, don't release the dog.

If I need a dog to warn someone to stay away, or keep away, from me, any good bite dog, (or any trained barking dog for that matter), should be able to do it from my side while on leash. If you aren't LE, you shouldn't be apprending and holding anyone anyway. 

Even for a woman who wants a barker, I think a dog that isn't even a biter, will be more inclined to bite and protect its owner the closer it is to the owner. So why would you want it far away from you? Evade the attacker and leave with your dog. If you can't leave, a barking but non-biting dog isn' going to help you much. If you get trapped, its more likely the dog will bite the attacker if it's trapped with its owner and can't run away. Keep it on leash and close.

For LE I believe all patrol dogs are taught to guard a suspect and protect the handler, i.e. during the pat-down and handcuffing etc... while somewhat similar, that's not a true B&H I don't think as it pertains to this discussion.

Craig


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I like a very active aggressive alert on command, and also use a silent "watch" type command...while on-leash not saying that the dog would remain silent regardless of what ever is going around, but just a word that lets her know to be watchful, that something may be hinky, without just immediately exploding.

I have a bark and hold on the dog, but I would never trust her not to bite, outside of training....as I think there is a good chance she would if that was tried for some stupid reason.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

In real life if your attacker was serious a B&H might just get the dog killed. The bad guy has time to point his gun/knife/pipe/machette. and do some serious damage.
But for sports training, yes my current dog is being trained in the B&H because i hope (fingers crossed cause i'm such a newby) that i may someday title her in IPO.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I consider my dogs sport dogs. I sure hope they'll step up if I'm ever in a real life situation where I need them to, but I'm not counting on it. I would never send my dog on someone unless I truly felt in danger and had no choice except to send the dog to buy me some time to run, but even then, I suspect I would be as worried about protecting my dog from harm as saving my own ass. If I _had_ to send my dog, I would want my dog to launch and bite. I'd be screaming "PACKEN", not "revier".

On the other hand, I would also train what Joby suggested - both an aggressive alert on command as a deterent and a silent pay attention command to cue the dog to be aware and on guard.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

from my own experiences a reliable bark and hold on anything other than a completely still person is pretty hard to teach... most dogs want that bite pretty damn bad and any little flinch or display of fear is damn good reason to take it... 

i saw a video once, i doubt i'll be able to find it again, of a mal who'd been taught to guard and bark from a distance - several yards, whilst moving side to side in somewhat of an arc... out of arm's reach and more difficult to aim a firearm at... i think this would be a somewhat effective technique, but i've no idea how it would be taught... 


i see no reason NOT to teach a bark and hold, but in a real life situation, unless you've proofed it DAMN well, it's probably going straight out the window anyway........


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jay Quinn said:


> from my own experiences a reliable bark and hold on anything other than a completely still person is pretty hard to teach... most dogs want that bite pretty damn bad and any little flinch or display of fear is damn good reason to take it...
> 
> i saw a video once, i doubt i'll be able to find it again, of a mal who'd been taught to guard and bark from a distance - several yards, whilst moving side to side in somewhat of an arc... out of arm's reach and more difficult to aim a firearm at... i think this would be a somewhat effective technique, but i've no idea how it would be taught...
> 
> ...


the way I have seen that trained is have the decoy punish the dog for getting too close or for biting..


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Craig Snyder said:


> No. I see no real advantage of a B&H dog for a non LE owner. I'd rather have a 100% proofed, reliable under any condition, immediate recall. (and I know there is nothing 100% before you say anything but you can get real close).
> 
> I think a bite dog needs to be handled like a gun. If you aren't prepared to pull the trigger, don't pull the gun. If you pull the gun, you better be planning on killing what your aiming at.
> 
> ...


Craig, if someone breaks into my house while I'm home, can I hold my dog back while she's barking up a storm while i call 911? Would that be holding someone illegally? Or should I just send my dog in to bite? The idea would be to hold him there until LE arrives.

I don't really know much about laws. Bad me.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Craig, if someone breaks into my house while I'm home, can I hold my dog back while she's barking up a storm while i call 911? Would that be holding someone illegally? Or should I just send my dog in to bite? The idea would be to hold him there until LE arrives.
> 
> I don't really know much about laws. Bad me.


Remember these phrases:

1. Use only that force that is necessary to protect you.

2. I was in fear of my life. 

DFrost


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting Q .... but i don't think it was thought out all the way 

i agree with almost everything Craig wrote PLUS i would like someone to tell me EXACTLY how you will train it for a PP dog
- understand and agree w/ what Joby said, but i think there is a LOT more involved in training a B/H for a PP dog than a SchH B/H in front of a blind
- start by trying to imagine all the various situations that might arise that you would need it
- at a minimum, since i am assuming this is an OFF lead command, wouldn't it require a helluva reliable send out to "someone" "somewhere" who probably is not gonna freeze up and act like a decoy in a blind, and probably won't be wearing a sleeve ?? 
... for anyone that has taught/proofed this for PP, i would like to hear the details of how it was taught and proofed

i have always thought PP training is one of the most difficult areas to train and this would be one example of why 

Jehane ... if you're out there; have you trained this for a PP dog ?


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Katie Finlay said:


> Craig, if someone breaks into my house while I'm home, can I hold my dog back while she's barking up a storm while i call 911? Would that be holding someone illegally? Or should I just send my dog in to bite? The idea would be to hold him there until LE arrives.
> 
> I don't really know much about laws. Bad me.


No. The idea has to be to protect yourself. You can't think in terms of holding the intruder. (as much I would like to). The question I think is what you think your dog is reliably capable of doing. Your dog is expendable and when you have trained your dog to bite or defend your home, you better have that mind set when the time comes or you'll get yourself, maybe family, and possibly your dog killed. If you aren't prepared to lose your dog in that situation, you might reconsider training the dog to bite.

Personally, I'd only send my dog if the intruder was pointing a gun at me and then I would run and get myself and family out of there. If the intruder was leaving or just staring me down I'd keep the dog with me and call 911 at the same time. My dog is there to protect me. To me, sending your dog is like shooting the last bullet in your clip. Once you send your dog it better work cause their ain't no plan B unless you got a gun to follow up. If i had a gun, that might be my first option before sending the dog! To me, sending the dog in means you have decided that serious injury and possibly death to the intruder is your only option. So gun first, dog as a last resort.

And before anyone asks, I did send my dog on an intruder while visiting my mother's home. And she did pin the intruder up against the wall without biting him because I outed her when I heard my brother yell that it was him. ](*,) At the time it wasn't funny. He was standing on the back of couch. Sage, my GSD, had her rear feet on the floor, front feet on the cushions and her mouth about six inches from his leg waiting for him to move. It was the last time he ever snuck in without calling. :mrgreen:

In retrospect I shouldnt have sent her. I didn't announce either. I was confident my brother was away and wouldn't be home that night. My mother, girlfriend and myself were on a second floor and only one way out was through the intruder. I was lucky he yelled up to me in time and very lucky my dog had a reliable out. 

So no. Sending the dog should be the last option. But if the intruder is in your house, and as long as they aren't leaving, I wouldn't hesitate to use all the force necessary. But once you send the dog, you better be long gone then. I know that will sound cowardly to many, but that is what a personal protection dog is for. If you aren't LE, the dogs goal is to save you. Hanging around waiting for your dog shouldn't be part of the SOP.

Craig


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> the way I have seen that trained is have the decoy punish the dog for getting too close or for biting..[/
> 
> Conrad most


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## Brittany silveira (Jun 20, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> the way I have seen that trained is have the decoy punish the dog for getting too close or for biting..


Wouldn't this train a dog to just hop around/bark and never want to go in for the bite? Would it be 'scared' to get close and bite?

Do some people like having dogs that bark but don't bite? Excuse my newb-ness.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brittany silveira said:


> Wouldn't this train a dog to just hop around/bark and never want to go in for the bite? Would it be 'scared' to get close and bite?
> 
> Do some people like having dogs that bark but don't bite? Excuse my newb-ness.


I guess that depends on the dog and the training.. it certainly could, that was not the case when I saw it done, however...

there are I am sure a few different ways that might be better or more applicable to certain dogs...

I think that 99% of of America's dogs bark and don't bite...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> interesting Q .... but i don't think it was thought out all the way
> 
> i agree with almost everything Craig wrote PLUS i would like someone to tell me EXACTLY how you will train it for a PP dog
> - understand and agree w/ what Joby said, but i think there is a LOT more involved in training a B/H for a PP dog than a SchH B/H in front of a blind
> ...


If I was to train it, seriously for PP I would train it police dog style.

I would personally never use a bark and hold for PP. I do not advocate using PP offlead outside the home or yard. 

as far as my dog goes, she will do a bark and hold anywhere, not just in a blind, it is too close and pushy to use for PP though, unless I knew for a fact the guy was unarmed with nothing around him, and I would never use it, if I am using a dog, it will be for deterrence or biting. I can forsee some type of situation where a dog may not engage and do some sort of B&H of even possibly after a bite, slip into some sort of guard...or have dog onleash and use them to hold the guy in a corner or something if the police were coming.

I have had and know of several biting instances with dogs I've owned, or trained. most all were onleash. 

I really dont see a B&H being something I would personally try in a serious PP situation... maybe to scare some punk or something if he surrendered himself.... who knows though, weird things can happen..like maybe if I saw some guy in my car..Id hook the dog up onlead and go out there and hold him in there if possible...


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## Brittany silveira (Jun 20, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> I think that 99% of of America's dogs bark and don't bite...


I couldn't agree more.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Craig, if someone breaks into my house while I'm home, can I hold my dog back while she's barking up a storm while i call 911? Would that be holding someone illegally? Or should I just send my dog in to bite? The idea would be to hold him there until LE arrives.
> 
> I don't really know much about laws. Bad me.



In the house the rules with a dog change for me. Then it becomes my job to protect my dog also. 
Missouri has some excellent laws concerning someone invading my house.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm not familiar with psd training but i thought what looks like an on lead version of a psd B/H was just a dog straining to be released to engage a suspect with the handler restraining it while giving an warning order to give up or be prepared for a bite ... i have never seen it used off lead ... are there video clips of that available ?

my house mutt can do a pretty good impression of a B/H on lead .... i can definitely get him to bark and pull on the leash at the same time
... i did it last year to the guy who threw a wad of firecrackers at him a few months earlier...purposely walked very close to the idiot who was walking towards us in the other direction and let me dog and him make EC; then i jacked up the dog on purpose ... was in a public crowded place
... irresponsible and asshole behavior on my part, but i just felt like doing it anyway since i still carry a grudge for that guy
... a few months later i was on a bench with my dog and he approached....drunk as usual... wouldn't back off...waited til he got close and ignored me when i told him to back off and then put the sole of my shoe in his solar plexus when he got close enuff ... he went flying and stayed on the ground while screaming for the police who did show up ... the police were very careful about not even asking me if i had touched the guy //lol// 
.... they cuffed him and hauled him off as usual and apologized to me AND my dog and didn't even ask me for a statement
---really made my day 

fwiw, in this case i did all the "B/H talking" and my dog stayed next to me quiet... i think he liked watching the action


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Thanks for the replies that was very helpful. I have heard of people using a dog to do a bark and hold on trespassers..However if a dog does bite work also. I would not trust the dog to just bark at the person in a real life situation...at least not this dog. Thats why I was leaning toward why even teach it in the first place.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Thanks for the replies that was very helpful. I have heard of people using a dog to do a bark and hold on trespassers..However if a dog does bite work also. I would not trust the dog to just bark at the person in a real life situation...at least not this dog. Thats why I was leaning toward why even teach it in the first place.


You have to consider also that even a dog with no bitework training, may still bite, as well, to teach a dog a "real" bark and hold, all pissed off, and not in prey for a bite, can also result in biting. 

I taught it, becuase it is easy enough to teach, I had interest in SCH, wanted a Guard as well, in case of other things. 

some dogs will pin people into corners or against a wall pretty much naturally. and you have to think if a guy ends up in your house or yard, whether he gets bitten or not, if he is not allowed to run away, and you are not gonna kill him, you gotta do something with him, or contain him, so why not scare the crap out of him too. 

PP is all very hypothetical, lots of theories and scenarios, best thing is to have is a dog that wants to bite someone and will bite someone, in my mind. That is if you ever intend to actually have the dog bite someone. 

If I ever had someone break in here and the dog bit them, I would either say I was in fear for my life, an embellish the story if I needed to, or I might just say " wow, I am not sure what the hell happened, I was asleep, and I just heard screaming and came out and some some strange guy in my house that the dog bit, never expected it, but hey, good dog....

Oddly enough when I did use a dog to bite someone, I never heard anything more about it, after giving a statement...I snuck out the back door one time with a dog, when a small group of people (4 dudes and 1 girl, and one baseball bat) were trying to kick my front door in, and confronted them... I did have a gun, but never pulled it out, not real smart I know, but I was young and feeling froggy, and there were 3 other guys in my house that were all hiding, everyone was too scared to do anything at all...one in a closet, another under a bed..and they were ****ing up my door, and jumping all over one guys car hood...all I can say is that myself or my dog were not injured..cant say the same for everyone else involved in the incident, and I got a new baseball bat out of the deal, some people just drop a baseball bat when being bitten by a dog, and start screaming, go figure....


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> You have to consider also that even a dog with no bitework training, may still bite, as well, to teach a dog a "real" bark and hold, all pissed off, and not in prey for a bite, can also result in biting.
> 
> I taught it, becuase it is easy enough to teach, I had interest in SCH, wanted a Guard as well, in case of other things.
> 
> ...


Like someone else said in another thread the real life bad guys don't make good decoys. They move too much anyway so the dog may not stay in a bark and hold...just start biting. 

By the way is that incident you described the same one where two bad guys tried to kill your rooommate and you went after them with a dog and they ran into their car?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Like someone else said in another thread the real life bad guys don't make good decoys. They move too much anyway so the dog may not stay in a bark and hold...just start biting.
> 
> By the way is that incident you described the same one where two bad guys tried to kill your rooommate and you went after them with a dog and they ran into their car?


I do not think they were going to kill him, they fro surely were going to beat him up pretty good though. no that was a different incident.

I met the one of the guys some time later, and he said he almost killed me that night, and that I was crazy, and he had a car full of guns.. he also said he was scared shitless of the dog. 

I lived in a very bad area on the west side of south bend IN. 3 murders on my street while I lived there, and 1 dead body in the alley behind the house. Dog tore one guy up that fell asleep in my car, I did not even know he was in there until it was too late...

I never had any real trouble in that house. Car got broken into once, trashed the interior trying to pry out the radio that was not even mounted correctly. broke the window to get in when there was a door that was unlocked. Took NOTHING that I could tell, and there was a lot in that car in the way of stereo equipment, CD's, cash, etc...was baffling..I was pissed, woulda maybe felt better if they actually took something, instead of ****ing up my whole car...

The other troubles started when I moved to the other, white trash side of town, lol..and had various roomates, and various stupid things going on, lots of partying and stuff.

Those two guys were some (white) young punks though, not hardcore gangbanger types, coming to kick his ass for some girl that got treated poorly by him, he did say they contemplated doing a drive by though...

The other incident occured because he was having sex with some guys girlfriend...

I talked to one of those guys after that too, not long after, and basically told them I dont care if they kick the dudes ass, just dont try to break into my house to do it...

live in the wrong areas, and hang out with the wrong people, and live a lifestyle that is not the greatest, and trouble will find you more often, tha is for sure..I was young, and stupid, happens sometimes...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I'm glad to hear your dogs executively protected you. 

P.S. I've had shity roommates also.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

With the exception of the more experienced cops, very few of us know how
we or our dogs would react to a serious threat; adrenaline would be flowing,
hands would be shaking, at least for me.

That said, a dog can do primarily two things, cause the intruder to skip your
place because of the loudly barking dog, or give you time to get your gun;
in America as it exists today you pretty much have to accept the fact that
an intruder has a gun and is willing to use it.

We have had this bark and hold discussion before, my expectation is that in
very few situations is an intruder going to lock up and stand still as a decoy
would, if your dog has it in him he is probably going to bite.


I do not what I would really do in the event of a home invasion. I own a
gun, and thinking it through ahead of time my inclination is to try and kill
anyone I ever point it at, and if he is wounded kill him with another shot
on the assumption that there is another person behind him.

I hope I never find out.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

I had adog that once he heard the gate latch pop he would bark agressivly and show agression. I let him outfront when he heard people by our cars 
none of our cars were broken into.

He wasnt trained to do this, natraul agression

Afther him being gone for 2 months someone stool the registration papers out of the car,new tags on a second car :neutral:


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

kenneth roth said:


> I had adog that once he heard the gate latch pop he would bark agressivly and show agression. I let him outfront when he heard people by our cars
> none of our cars were broken into.
> 
> He wasnt trained to do this, natraul agression
> ...


 Did your dog pass away?


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

My mom live in Roatan Honduras, (She's from there) and when she was getting ready to move back to take care of my grandmother. I purchased her a boxer/pit puppy. Raised her and did basic training with her. She was sort of a lackluster obedience dog. But was still a well trained pup.
Then took her to some dude in St. Pete who trained GSD for protection. (name escapes me now a days) Did about 5 classes worth of personal protection type work with her. All on lead with him yelling in spanish, threatoning her with whips, sticks stuff like that. Then one day the dude vanished, seems he was having an affair with some other client, left me with a half trained dog.

Regardless i sent the dog down south with my mom. Had to explain her training over the phone.
Brenda ( the dog) turned out perfect, despite my complete lack of finishing her, or really knowing what i was really doing in the first place. In Roatan there are no police, and the place is thick with theives. 

Mom had a man walk into the house uninvited and unannounced. The second the dog heard the man coming up the stairs she went after him. And my mom commanded her to down in mid flight and the dog landed right in front of the intruder. He was scared sh!tless and she only watched him while showing her teeth.
Mom and the dog escorted him off the property at gun point and called the company he worked for to find out he was the guy breaking into people's homes and he was fire from his job.

Another man was having an argument with my mom over the property line fence and made a threatoning move and jester in her direction. Brenda was sitting at her side. When he made a fist and raised it at my mom the dog leaned forward and bit him in the crotch. And returned to a sit. Needless to say argument over.
She also survived 3 attempts to poison her, a popular past time with crooks in the area, because they intend to break in after the dog is dead. Because we knew they did this our vet provided a poison kit for the dog just in case. That kit saved her 3 times but the 4th time she was too old and mom caught it too late. Brenda was 13.
Most people will never have need for a "real" personal protection dog. But if you live outside the USA and the police force is as bad as the crooks, or doesn't even exist. Then having a "Real" protection dog is worth it's weight in gold. 
Mom has several pariah dogs rescued from the area. But other then barking. None of the have any potential to protect. Raise a hand and they scatter. I hope to have her a new dog sometime soon because she really needs on again. Since the crime rate is climbing on the island again.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

SOunds like a neat dog...I use a czech GSD at this point. He's kind of small but loves to do bite work.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ben Thompson said:


> Do you like your home protection dogs or personal protection dogs to do bark and hold? I'm leaning toward not bothering with it for this young male pup I am working with.


 Why waste the energy? If the dog is a true protection animal, the bite and noise will let you know the bad guy is "over there." 

Barking on command is nice in that it does give the person a chance to leave IF they hear the dog...:-$


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