# Whats with people these days



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I am looking for a dog or pup and call people and they give me one price but yet when I talk to friends that are talking with some of these very same people they get lower prices then what I get. Kinda gets under my skin. Last time I check cash was green and I bleed Red as well. Not dropping names but curious of other people seen this or heard of this before?](*,):-k


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Sometimes breeders give a discounted price to high level trainers or return clients. Also, different prices for pets vs working pups vs the pick working pup. If I've sold a pup to someone and they did extremely well with the dog at high levels in ____ then I may give them a really great deal on the next pup. 

Hey, send me a couple of those really shiny crates that you make and I'll send you a pup! :lol:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Welcome to the dog world.....it does suck, but I don't know what else to tell you....sorry.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> I am looking for a dog or pup and call people and they give me one price but yet when I talk to friends that are talking with some of these very same people they get lower prices then what I get. Kinda gets under my skin. Last time I check cash was green and I bleed Red as well. Not dropping names but curious of other people seen this or heard of this before?](*,):-k



Harry,

It's a matter of what people think they can get. Years ago, when
Americans in Europe were not nearly as common as now, I would go
with Dutch friends to look at puppies. The rule was simple, I came 
along and nodded my head and stayed in the background, because
one word of English and the price of the pup would double or even
more.

My approach has always been to establish a personal relationship
with the people whose dogs I liked if possible. This was a way to
gain knowledge and help, and eventually, a better dog.

What people don't understand is that the last dog sold from a
litter is often the best one sold, because the breeder will hang
on to the best ones to make his own choice as late as possible.

Years ago one of the people I worked with and looked up to
advised me that as a breeder sometimes you get stuck with
pups because customers come and go, and the trick is to get 
stuck with the best dogs.

And Debbie Skinner is giving you the straight story, people
who have done well with previous pups get the preference
in terms of selection and very often a better price. This
is generally true with breeders because it is just good common
business sense.

My practice was to work with the best people I could find
and then trust them, that is, tell them what I wanted to do
and ask for them to watch for a pup or a young dog, without
reference to a specific litter.

If someone is giving you a high ball price then you need to
take the message to heart and ask yourself if that is where
you want to be looking for support down the road.

Also, I have never returned a pup to a breeder, and over
the years there have of course been disappointments and
pups that did not work out. But if you have the right
relationship it will be made right in the end without needing
to complain or demand replacements, you look at is a mutual
problem to solve rather than an issue for confrontation.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Kinda gets under my skin. Last time I check cash was green and I bleed Red as well. Not dropping names but curious of other people seen this or heard of this before?](*,):-k


I know I'm not buying puppies, fact remains, they (whomever "they" may be) are not the only breeder/vendor in town. I've found someone out there will take my money and I'll get what I want. Ok, it may not be the "namebrand" you were looking for. I've been in this business for many years and no one has the "only best" dogs.
(yeah I now that sucks grammatically, but it makes sense to me)

DFrost


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jim, I appreciate your point of view along with the others. It seems more lately then before for some reaon or another. I been buying and raising pups mostly mals and dutchies before some of the big names became big here in the USA at least. I have always been fair and honest with people and choose to keep my dogs as my hobby. My main source of income is in metals not dogs. I only breed to keep something for myself back then everybody else second. Like you said people generally keep the best back which I have no problem with. I'm guilty of that in this litter we kept back the best of the best two. which ended up being a male and a female. We have decided to keep the female and sold the male. That male though sold for the same price as the others no less and no more. Now I might cut a deal to a friend but as a stranger I didn't care who you were or what you did everybody got a fair shake across the board. My only thing was it had to be working homes and be experienced homes on top of that. I basically posted this to vent at the greed of some people of there ignorance and not the care of where there dogs end up. Pretty much saying I don't care about what you do with the dog just pay me stupid. Not directed at anybody in particular in that statement.](*,)


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I know I'm not buying puppies, fact remains, they (whomever "they" may be) are not the only breeder/vendor in town. I've found someone out there will take my money and I'll get what I want. Ok, it may not be the "namebrand" you were looking for. I've been in this business for many years and no one has the "only best" dogs.
> (yeah I now that sucks grammatically, but it makes sense to me)
> 
> DFrost


David, dont care about name brands never have but will go to a reputable breeder. I care more about the individual workablity of the dog. I don't think I have had one dog that can be registered in can't tell you how long.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> I am looking for a dog or pup and call people and they give me one price but yet when I talk to friends that are talking with some of these very same people they get lower prices then what I get. Kinda gets under my skin. Last time I check cash was green and I bleed Red as well. Not dropping names but curious of other people seen this or heard of this before?](*,):-k


You got to love it eh, Harry. You think it is a curious thing on your end, you should be on my end....trying to remember what price I gave who. A lot of times I have to ask people when they call back what price I gave them! It's businees Harry and we are dealing with people that have done some shopping and think the price should be between two numbers they have arrived at from their shopping. What happens is that to break out of the typical price that mom and pop get for their dogs, I have to test the market to see what it will bear. May have a price I sold at last year but it isn't cutting it. I may quote some at $100 bucks higher, some at $250 bucks higher, some at $350 bucks higher. You lose some people doing it but with the immediate litters, if you move most at $250 bucks higher you will be even. The next litters you will make a bit more. There are times the market won't bear any more also. 

The ones that get the highest prices quoted are the ones that start with. "I am not looking for a world beater, I just want a nice pet and companion." What I hear is they want a cheap dog". I simply tell them that a good pet is a valuable to a pet person as a good working dog is to a working dog person. A lousy pet that you can't train, and bites isn't cheap at half the price. I tell them where to find airedales for $250 and $300 and tell them they got some wiggle room there and they may find a decent dog before they have spent the as much as I want.
 What I would suggest, if you can be cool about it, ask then what determines their different prices. They may tell you.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> I basically posted this to vent at the greed of some people of there ignorance and not the care of where there dogs end up. Pretty much saying I don't care about what you do with the dog just pay me stupid. Not directed at anybody in particular in that statement.](*,)


I agree that the care of where the dog ends up should be the #1 priority. 
I think we have all heard of some breeders or resellers that judge a prospective buyer on what kind of car they drive up in. :x I would say more so for companion type breeds than working litters since many looking for a working puppy have experience already or at least mentors or clubs to guide them.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I agree that the care of where the dog ends up should be the #1 priority.
> I think we have all heard of some breeders or resellers that judge a prospective buyer on what kind of car they drive up in. :x I would say more so for companion type breeds than working litters since many looking for a working puppy have experience already or at least mentors or clubs to guide them.


I don't know that that is entirely true Debbie. A lot of who I sell to fly from the east coast to pick up the pups. People like Dr. Lawyers, actors, owners of places like Zacky Farms and others that own the largest table grape vineyards in Calif. They may not know how to train the dog themselves but they don't have to because they can afford the $4,000 to $6,000 to have the dogs trained so they look good at the gun club. People come here driving Ferrarri's, to old PU trucks. I try to treat them all the same because you can't judge a book by the cover. One lawyer asked if I would clip the two dogs he got fom me if he could bring them down. I told him sure. When I was done he gave me an H&K .45 compact with 4 clips. Another time he sent me a 14" bowie with a damascus steel blade and a bone handle. I take the time to work with his dogs and visit different customers if I am in the area or they are having a problem getting the dog to do something. The point is, driving a nice car is just as good a way to judge people as any other.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't know that that is entirely true Debbie. A lot of who I sell to fly from the east coast to pick up the pups. People like Dr. Lawyers, actors, owners of places like Zacky Farms and others that own the largest table grape vineyards in Calif. They may not know how to train the dog themselves but they don't have to because they can afford the $4,000 to $6,000 to have the dogs trained so they look good at the gun club. People come here driving Ferrarri's, to old PU trucks. I try to treat them all the same because you can't judge a book by the cover. One lawyer asked if I would clip the two dogs he got fom me if he could bring them down. I told him sure. When I was done he gave me an H&K .45 compact with 4 clips. Another time he sent me a 14" bowie with a damascus steel blade and a bone handle. I take the time to work with his dogs and visit different customers if I am in the area or they are having a problem getting the dog to do something. The point is, driving a nice car is just as good a way to judge people as any other.


You misunderstood my post. I said that we have all heard of some breeders and resellers that would adjust the price of a puppy depending on what they think they can "get out of the person". I believe this is wrong.

I think if you have "Puppy A" for sale as a pet and your pet price is $500.00 then whether someone drives up in a BMW or a used truck, the price should still be $500 for the pet puppy.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't know that that is entirely true Debbie. A lot of who I sell to fly from the east coast to pick up the pups. People like Dr. Lawyers, actors, owners of places like Zacky Farms and others that own the largest table grape vineyards in Calif. They may not know how to train the dog themselves but they don't have to because they can afford the $4,000 to $6,000 to have the dogs trained so they look good at the gun club. People come here driving Ferrarri's, to old PU trucks. I try to treat them all the same because you can't judge a book by the cover. One lawyer asked if I would clip the two dogs he got fom me if he could bring them down. I told him sure. When I was done he gave me an H&K .45 compact with 4 clips. Another time he sent me a 14" bowie with a damascus steel blade and a bone handle. I take the time to work with his dogs and visit different customers if I am in the area or they are having a problem getting the dog to do something. The point is, driving a nice car is just as good a way to judge people as any other.



Forgot to add that the other part of my post that you misunderstood is that I was saying I think that this happens more often to the buyer of a companion dog than folks looking for a working dog as the person looking for a pet probably doesn't belong to a club that can help guide them. Also, not to a forum like this so they can research what is a fair price for the the type of pup they want. I didn't say at all that a rich person w/o experience would be a bad owner, but rich or poor if you are inexperienced when buying a pup and no one is helping you or you haven't done your research then you can get duped. I think this happens less often in the working puppy market than to someone looking for a pet. I doubt the pet forums have these kind of discussions and most first time pet dog people won't be on a forum any ways.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Oh and Don..I just re-read my post and it isn't very clear as I should of said judge and adjust the price. I wasn't clear so you didn't understand it! I knew what I meant, but probably no one else did! Darn it!


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

if I got judged by what I was driving at times- probably no one would sell me a pup....


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> if I got judged by what I was driving at times- probably no one would sell me a pup....


Yeah, I've been there before..now it's more if I was judged by what I'm wearing!  

However, I totally messed up my first post and typed about 1/2 of what I was thinking into the post. I don't think people should be charged more for the same thing because the seller thinks that person can afford to pay more.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> if I got judged by what I was driving at times- probably no one would sell me a pup....


Been there


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

This had nothing to do with vehicles. My buddy called a guy ( no names mentioned ) and asked on the price of a young dog / pup age and was qouted 1500. I called the guy a few days later when my buddy told me about these pups and said they were good so I decided to call the guy. Never mentioned my buddy in my conversation but introduced myself and got to talking and what not. He asked me what I did so I told him I deal in metal fabrications and sure enough shortly after that he threw a price on me with out even asking that yet for 2500. I held my mouth and just hung up on him. Thats what sparked my frustration and thought I would post it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ok Debbie, I see what you were saying. Never have that problem because they know the price before they come and I see their rig. Like you were saying before also, if I think they can do the name some good, I will give them a better price many times....but they have to show me they are what they say they are. I had a dog trainer call me from Md last spring and what he wanted was a dog for competition obedience that could post perfect scores or no lower than 198 to 199. He also wanted the dog for cold water retrieving for ducks in the MD surf and to be his exhibition dog for training classes. I told him I had a 4 week old that could do that. He later flew out to pick the pup up. There wasn't a lot of doubt that he was serious so I knocked a couple of C notes off to help him out because it was a stretch for him to get the dog anyway. I never raise a quoted price.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I dunno, I think this is where it gets tough. The max I paid for a dog was $5000 and that was the Bloodhound.....

The lowest I have paid was $500......

ALL of my dogs, except two, were offered to me, I did not go look for them. Even with Jeff....all I did was say, if you have a drivey little female, please keep me in mind. Figured I would not have a chance at one of his pups as he had several people interested. I am the lucky one. 

The one dog I sought after and had tunnel vision because I REALLY liked the breeder turned out to be a sharp, reactive, handler aggressive little shit......so she was placed with someone better at handling that stuff.....in LEO. 

The other one....let's say I will never enter into a co-ownership again without a valid, binding contract (yeah I know....not trying to derail this thread in valid contract discussion at all) and my money will go DIRECTLY to the person who is SUPPOSED to recieve it. 

So, I doubt I will change....I may throw an email out to people that I know and trust saying "if you find anything like "insert what you want here" if and when I want another dog and see what happens. 

***one exception would be one of Don's Airedales, I know what it is up front and trust him completely and KNOW I will get my money's worth. And he will get a big jug of whiskey at Christmas and on his birthday....sorry Don, not giving up any firearms...LOL


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Price should be put on the litter or dog - not adjusted for what people make for a living or what they drive. My mom dresses nice and drives a Mercedes - looks very "wealthy" - clean, big, gold color, good looking car - 14 years old, bought used - reliable, safe, comfortable. My family is not wealthy - Dad career military, mom teacher, homemaker - extended family electricians, teachers, military, police, factory worker, homemakers, coal miners. My prices don't change, unless I make a discount for some reason of my choosing. Never are prices raised because of what I feel the person "should be able to afford". And I hate to hear about breeders or agents doing this. To me, that's fraud - or at least dishonesty.

molly


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> This had nothing to do with vehicles. My buddy called a guy ( no names mentioned ) and asked on the price of a young dog / pup age and was qouted 1500. I called the guy a few days later when my buddy told me about these pups and said they were good so I decided to call the guy. Never mentioned my buddy in my conversation but introduced myself and got to talking and what not. He asked me what I did so I told him I deal in metal fabrications and sure enough shortly after that he threw a price on me with out even asking that yet for 2500. I held my mouth and just hung up on him. Thats what sparked my frustration and thought I would post it.


 HARRY
Welcome to the real world..
BUYER BEWARE..
Harry what i mean buy that ,THERE IS A SUCKER BORN EVERY MINUTE.

When you are in the market for something do your research and shop your best price. It sound to me that your were just crapping around w/ this one "breeder" and you got the catch as catch can price,because you acted like you didn't know about dogs.Harry you are a smart man and I am sure if you really wanted this pup,you could have gotten him for $1200


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Molly Graf said:


> Price should be put on the litter or dog - not adjusted for what people make for a living or what they drive. My mom dresses nice and drives a Mercedes - looks very "wealthy" - clean, big, gold color, good looking car - 14 years old, bought used - reliable, safe, comfortable. My family is not wealthy - Dad career military, mom teacher, homemaker - extended family electricians, teachers, military, police, factory worker, homemakers, coal miners. My prices don't change, unless I make a discount for some reason of my choosing. Never are prices raised because of what I feel the person "should be able to afford". And I hate to hear about breeders or agents doing this. To me, that's fraud - or at least dishonesty.
> 
> molly


I have a very similar family demographis, as most of us do I'm sure. And I agree with you completely about this. I have never raised my price to anyone, but I have lowered it a few times. The only exception would be a Govt. contract. If I get a nice dual dog in that I know I can sell for "X$" I will quote that price when people ask about that dog. But if that dog is still here and gets used to fill a Govt. contract which already has a set price that is higher than I would sell that dog for to the public, then he gets sold for more money under that contract. But those prices are set for the year and they dont change. Sometimes I have to use a dog for those contracts who is worth more than the contract price, and sometimes I use a dog that I had priced lower than the contract price, that is just the way it works sometimes. But for the public the price never goes up from one person to the next unless I quote a 6 month old puppy and now he is 14 months and has much more work in him, or something like that. If I dont want to sell a dog to a guy I will just tell him no, I wont raise the price for that guy.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok Debbie, I see what you were saying. Never have that problem because they know the price before they come and I see their rig. Like you were saying before also, if I think they can do the name some good, I will give them a better price many times....but they have to show me they are what they say they are. I had a dog trainer call me from Md last spring and what he wanted was a dog for competition obedience that could post perfect scores or no lower than 198 to 199. He also wanted the dog for cold water retrieving for ducks in the MD surf and to be his exhibition dog for training classes. I told him I had a 4 week old that could do that. He later flew out to pick the pup up. There wasn't a lot of doubt that he was serious so I knocked a couple of C notes off to help him out because it was a stretch for him to get the dog anyway. I never raise a quoted price.


Oh, I've been fooled by trainers "talk" and also by their web sites before. I got a dog back in terrible shape from a "trainer".


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Oh, I've been fooled by trainers "talk" and also by their web sites before. I got a dog back in terrible shape from a "trainer".


Been there for sure. There is an outfit up on the grapevine that has lions, tigers and trains animals for movies. Well, some little gal showed up one day looking for a 2 year old airedale for a Disney movie. They wanted Hunter. I told them a price I may consider but it was doubtful because he was the first of the tall, lean, running style dogs. She told me what she was autorized to spend which was an alright price. I showed he Harrison(Harry). Told em he was $500. I won't go I to everything that took place but they brought him back several weeks later and he died the next day....and the owners said he wanted his money back.In short, one of the trainers took him home and locked him in her garrage with her dirty laundry and a bunch of smelly socks. Yes, he was full of socks. I talked to the vet they took him to and she said he was almost dead when they brought him in. Yes, been there, done that. He only mentioned getting his money back one time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The lowest I have paid was $500......

What kind of IDIOT sells a pup for 500 bucks ?? Everyone knows that they should be 15-2500 dollars.

Stupid stupid stupid. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

I cannot even tell you how ****ing amazing a pup would have to be to be worth 2500 bucks. That ****er better be BORN knowing the ring three routine.

Don't get me started with stupid ****ing fad breeders. **** I hate them.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The lowest I have paid was $500......
> 
> What kind of IDIOT sells a pup for 500 bucks ?? Everyone knows that they should be 15-2500 dollars.
> 
> ...


Did you miss my Photo Thread on Tim Welch's DS/GSDs pups. We just have to come up with a nifty brand/breed name for them!  So far the choices are Rhine or Welch Shepherds or Dermans or Gurtches...

If I do a Beauceron/Malinois cross it will be either Malerons or Beaucinois...or, Crappers! :lol:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Hill at that point like I said I held my words, but had a few choice words on the mind. Just won't use this guy ( nice dogs but a real con artist in my eyes ). Since then I have talked to Mike.S and probally would be visiting him once I sell my KNPV male. Oh yea Hill you were right Mike.S is a good guy have talked with him a few times and was really wanting a pup from both Bonnie & Demi but looks like I'm not going to have time to wait on those litters. Have also heard from some other buddies / knowledgable K9 guys that Mike.S has good dogs which already knew that, he pretty much pulls from the same places that my other guy pulls from in Holland that have always got bloodlines from & love his mals & dutchies. Not that bloodlines are everything but it helps to have proven lines backing your dogs you know. Theres a pup and a few adults I'm looking at when I get there and whatever else might be their. Will primarily be looking for hunt / ball drive on this one.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was talking about me. : )


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I was talking about me. : )



So far the best $500 I have paid for a shit.....errr I mean puppy....:-\"


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Harry - your looking for a dog to work on the TF, right? If so, Mike S can definitely get you what you need.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I can always take the crate pisser off your hands for you.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> Harry - your looking for a dog to work on the TF, right? If so, Mike S can definitely get you what you need.


Add on from my previous post for some reason I hit the submit button or it automatically put my paragraph up there don't know ( phone started ringing off the dam hook at got confused I guess plus my kid screaming and dogs barking didn't help ) so sorry to the add on. Yea I like Mike.S stuff but I was going to say I also like Tony.G and Mike.R stuff right now they all got fair prices and excellent working stock so not 110% sure which way I'm going to lean towards. Maybe one pup from two of these guys or one older dog from one of these guys. I have talked with all three of these guys some more than others not because I like one guy more than the others but just works out that way. So we will see whats going to go on when my adult sells because once that happens I will hit the ground running, my time line is getting shorter by the day. Plus two trips in a months time that adds up to a 2 week period doesn't help either one to FL and one to NY, to much traveling LOL.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Hopely I will get R&R in my grave, probally not though, I will probally still running around with my head cut off like a chicken LOL.[-o<


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> Harry - your looking for a dog to work on the TF, right? If so, Mike S can definitely get you what you need.


Sorry Konnie, got side tract as usual to much going on at one time, Yes thats what I would be looking for at the least for the dog as a primary discipline.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I can always take the crate pisser off your hands for you.


I will give you a deal at $1000....LOL


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> I will give you a deal at $1000....LOL


Maybe I can pay you $2500 for him being that I have smuck & moron written across my forehead I guess LMAO.:lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

mmmm I really need to get my prices up:-o

I have 1 price, doesn´t matter if the puppy is male or female, for my neighbour, best trainer in the Netherlands or someone from the US.

I do sometimes give discounts or a better pick in the litter (if I choose to do so, my/our choice and is a gift from us to that person)

If the puppy is going abroad of course the shippingcost are for the buyer AND I charge a little bit money if they have to stay longer dan 7-8 wks.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Maybe I can pay you $2500 for him being that I have smuck & moron written across my forehead I guess LMAO.:lol:



Well....I got a neutered Bloodhound I will sell for $2500....he is 9. I will pay the shipping too.....\\/\\/


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