# Cannonball remote ball launcher



## Marta Wajngarten

Does any one have any experience with these? I'm considering buying one, just curious about build quality and reliability. 
Thanks


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## Thomas Barriano

It doesn't look like much for Euro 470?


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## Stefan Schaub

a friend of mine is using it and more than happy.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Thomas Barriano said:


> It doesn't look like much for Euro 470?


Show me any comparable product that costs less.


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## Gerald Dunn

is it just me? I don't see it????


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## Thomas Barriano

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Show me any comparable product that costs less.


Here you go Marta 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chuckit-18M...113?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c646320e9


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## Marta Wajngarten

haaaa haa, seriously find one...  If there is some thing comparable out there that's cheaper I have plenty of other things I can spend the left over money on


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## Marta Wajngarten

Gerald Dunn said:


> is it just me? I don't see it????


I didn't post any pics if that's what you mean. This is what we're talking about: http://www.newcannonball.com/


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## Christopher Smith

Marta, check out dummy launchers from a hunting dog source. 

I'll come back later to explain why using this type of stuff can screw up your training.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Marta Wajngarten

ok, I would be interested to hear that


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## Bob Scott

For a pop up the club I belonged to used a cheap bird launcher from Cabelas and rigged it with a remote solenoid from Radio Shack. Worked great! You could control exactly when to launch the ball. Ideally when the dog looks in the correct direction with your indication.
The dog soon learns that your "sendout" signal means something good is going to happen where you point.


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## Christopher Smith

Marta Wajngarten said:


> ok, I would be interested to hear that


So about 15 years ago a couple of friends and I started playing around with dummy/bird launchers for remote rewards. All of our dogs had good send outs but we thought we could make it better. We put the launcher at the end of the field and started rewarding our send outs. It was great...for the first few sessions. But within 5 sessions all of our dogs were slower. Instead of running out to the target area with their heads down, with the single minded purpose of getting to the target area, they ran with their heads up and at a slower pace because they were anticipating the ball to come flying up. We even tried putting the launcher in a hole so the ball rolled along the ground at center line thinking that would entice the dogs to put their heads down. The dogs also started keying in on anything that moved on the field. So if a leaf moved on the ground or a bird flew by the dog would run to it thinking it was the ball. So now the dogs were more distracted overall in obedience. Lastly, the dogs were so charged up and hunting for the ball that the down also went to crap. They would stop, go almost down, then start craning their necks looking for the ball. 

If I were to play around with the launcher today I would teach the dog to run to the launcher and bark (*do not do a static position!!!*) at it before I released the ball. 

We also tried the launcher in the blind and had bad results with the dogs coming into an empty blind and doing weird superstitious crap.


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## Bob Scott

Christopher Smith said:


> So about 15 years ago a couple of friends and I started playing around with dummy/bird launchers for remote rewards. All of our dogs had good send outs but we thought we could make it better. We put the launcher at the end of the field and started rewarding our send outs. It was great...for the first few sessions. But within 5 sessions all of our dogs were slower. Instead of running out to the target area with their heads down, with the single minded purpose of getting to the target area, they ran with their heads up and at a slower pace because they were anticipating the ball to come flying up. We even tried putting the launcher in a hole so the ball rolled along the ground at center line thinking that would entice the dogs to put their heads down. The dogs also started keying in on anything that moved on the field. So if a leaf moved on the ground or a bird flew by the dog would run to it thinking it was the ball. So now the dogs were more distracted overall in obedience. Lastly, the dogs were so charged up and hunting for the ball that the down also went to crap. They would stop, go almost down, then start craning their necks looking for the ball.
> 
> If I were to play around with the launcher today I would teach the dog to run to the launcher and bark (*do not do a static position!!!*) at it before I released the ball.
> 
> We also tried the launcher in the blind and had bad results with the dogs coming into an empty blind and doing weird superstitious crap.



Interesting! I can see the possibility for that but never saw it with any of dogs at the club.
I rarely put the down in the send out in training. If the down is solid with distraction on it's own it's not necessary more then 1-2 times in 10 sendouts during training.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Ineresting indeed. Were you rewarding every single send out with the launcher? Was it positioned so that it was visible to the dog? Did you begin with short distances or did you go right to full distance since your dogs had an understanding of the send out already? At what point in relation to the dog's position was the ball released and was that distance ever varied? Was the ball released while the dog was in motion or after a down command? My plan is to angle the device so that the ball shoots out in the same direction the dog is going causing the dog to speed up and never in such way that the dog is looking any where but forward, but I can totally see lack of clarity causing the dog to hunt and anticipate. 

I also want to use it for recalls with the launcher positioned behind me varied with a reward on me.


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## Christopher Smith

> Were you rewarding every single send out with the launcher?


 No. 


> Was it positioned so that it was visible to the dog?


No.


> Did you begin with short distances or did you go right to full distance since your dogs had an understanding of the send out already?


The distance was variable.



> At what point in relation to the dog's position was the ball released and was that distance ever varied?


This was also variable.



> Was the ball released while the dog was in motion or after a down command?


Always in motion. I never send a dog for a reward after he downs. If he downs the reward ALWAYS comes form me.


> My plan is to angle the device so that the ball shoots out in the same direction the dog is going causing the dog to speed up and never in such way that the dog is looking any where but forward, but I can totally see lack of clarity causing the dog to hunt and anticipate.


 Yes that's why we dug a hole in the field. 



> I also want to use it for recalls with the launcher positioned behind me varied with a reward on me.


 That's not something I would do but good luck to you and I would love to see a few sessions on video to see how it goes. 

How is your recall now? Are you really going to retain more points? My time training with the launcher really taught me something about looking at the points. My send out was great and always V. But my ego got to me and I wanted more. More speed and more spectacular and dynamic downs. But point wise I screwed myself. If you are getting full points already, spend your time and energy on the exercises that you don't have full points on. I had to learn the hard way that there are no extra credit points in schutzhund.


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## Bob Scott

Marta, it's two different exercises so I think it could be done "IF" the finish is kept separate (and rock solid) from the recall. Many of us toss the ball behind us when the dog is doing a fast recall. It doesn't make the dog run past us when we don't do it. "IF" done correctly Using the launcher behind you could take away any body movement that keys the dog. keep them thinking!


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## Ariel Peldunas

Christopher Smith said:


> So about 15 years ago a couple of friends and I started playing around with dummy/bird launchers for remote rewards. All of our dogs had good send outs but we thought we could make it better. We put the launcher at the end of the field and started rewarding our send outs. It was great...for the first few sessions. But within 5 sessions all of our dogs were slower. Instead of running out to the target area with their heads down, with the single minded purpose of getting to the target area, they ran with their heads up and at a slower pace because they were anticipating the ball to come flying up. We even tried putting the launcher in a hole so the ball rolled along the ground at center line thinking that would entice the dogs to put their heads down. The dogs also started keying in on anything that moved on the field. So if a leaf moved on the ground or a bird flew by the dog would run to it thinking it was the ball. So now the dogs were more distracted overall in obedience. Lastly, the dogs were so charged up and hunting for the ball that the down also went to crap. They would stop, go almost down, then start craning their necks looking for the ball.
> 
> If I were to play around with the launcher today I would teach the dog to run to the launcher and bark (*do not do a static position!!!*) at it before I released the ball.
> 
> We also tried the launcher in the blind and had bad results with the dogs coming into an empty blind and doing weird superstitious crap.


Can I ask how you trained the send away prior to trying the launcher? 

I was actually considering using a launcher to improve my dog's send away. She is not a Sch dog, but I figure she is still young enough to play around with and I wanted to see if I could get better results with a launcher. I trained her to do a send away in a similar manner that retriever trainers do with labs, but I found if she couldn't see the reward or place board or I tried taking them away (I was using a retrieving bumper or a low table) she would revert to searching behavior and not maintain a straight line. I then went to using a boundary (fence, edge of the training field, etc.) and always placing the reward or table there. I thought a launcher would help extinct the desire to search for the target and instead reinforce her to just run until told to do otherwise.

She was trained to search first and has always preferred to search independently rather than take direction from me so the fact that the send away has somehow equated to a "search for the toy or place" exercise has been detrimental.


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## Nicole Stark

Ariel Peldunas said:


> She was trained to search first and has always preferred to search independently rather than take direction from me so the fact that the send away has somehow equated to a "search for the toy or place" exercise has been detrimental.


I can see how this might be the case with my DS as well and I have wondered about what problems I might have with this exercise as a result of that. She's done a lot of independent searching. So much so that during OB occasionally if I don't reward her quickly enough she will start searching for her own reward. In fact, I might go as far as to say that she almost sees her environment as a conduit for the source of her reward more so then me having established that relationship/correlation with her. Can't say as I blame her, that was intentional on my part.

I taught my mastiff a send out with food, this might be the route I take with the snipe and leave an object completely out of the picture. Ah, just thinking out loud...


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## Geoff Empey

One of my friends in my local group has a BSD the detection one. It works similar to a cannonball, we've had great results with it for drivey crazy dogs that would go around, crash or touch the jumps. We've also used it for send outs the problem with the older BS-2 model we have is it only does 1/2 the length of the field. So someone has to stand somewhere closer to pop the ball or kong. It will pop a kong, jute towel, or a ball which is something the cannonball can't do. 

I've thought about a Zinger Winger and BSD-1 model of the BSD for myself. I can see how what Chris was saying about the launch of a dummy launcher will make the dog start to anticipate and search for the flying reward. Like anything I'm sure you can mess up things if the dog loses it's focus for what the job is supposed to be if you overuse any reward. I have a pretty wicked send out with my female. I've used a bunch of different things but the consistent has always been a ball at the end of the field in the center. The BSD launcher for me didn't speed up or slow down anything. I don't know maybe because it was always in the same spot and it didn't have an arcing flight when delivering the reward, it just popped out. So in my use it was just an extra exciting reward that we use every now and then unless the remote is to far away to release the reward. They are fun to play with.


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## Christopher Smith

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Can I ask how you trained the send away prior to trying the launcher?


 Roughly, I teach the dog to find the ball at the base of a barrier (fence/wall). Pretty standard stuff. I don't use place boards because they teach the dog to search, IME. I want my dog oriented and focused on running straight down center line to the barrier. I don't want him to think about anything else. 





> I thought a launcher would help extinct the desire to search for the target and instead reinforce her to just run until told to do otherwise.



I think the launcher is only going to make things worse. 



(I misunderstood your question at first but I wrote all of this stuff so I'm posting it anyway.:razz: )


Assuming you are teaching an IPO send out, I would get her going out for the ball to the fence really good and fast. After a few sessions of her going good and strong I would remove the toy and send her. Ask her to down. When she blows you off let her search for awhile. Tell her to down again. If she blows you off let her search for a while again. Continue doing this until she downs. Once she downs produce the toy from your pocket and give it to her. 


If you do this you will eliminate the reason for the dog to search. The dog learns that if you say down you are helping her out and telling her that the ball is not on the field it's in your pocket. 



I see it all the time, but telling a dog to down while the toy is still on the field is not very smart training, IMO


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## Christopher Smith

Geoff Empey said:


> One of my friends in my local group has a BSD the detection one. It works similar to a cannonball, we've had great results with it for drivey crazy dogs that would go around, crash or touch the jumps. We've also used it for send outs the problem with the older BS-2 model we have is it only does 1/2 the length of the field. So someone has to stand somewhere closer to pop the ball or kong. It will pop a kong, jute towel, or a ball which is something the cannonball can't do.
> 
> I've thought about a Zinger Winger and BSD-1 model of the BSD for myself. I can see how what Chris was saying about the launch of a dummy launcher will make the dog start to anticipate and search for the flying reward. Like anything I'm sure you can mess up things if the dog loses it's focus for what the job is supposed to be if you overuse any reward. I have a pretty wicked send out with my female. I've used a bunch of different things but the consistent has always been a ball at the end of the field in the center. The BSD launcher for me didn't speed up or slow down anything. I don't know maybe because it was always in the same spot and it didn't have an arcing flight when delivering the reward, it just popped out. So in my use it was just an extra exciting reward that we use every now and then unless the remote is to far away to release the reward. They are fun to play with.


Jeff, was this for an IPO or Ring send out? I find that they are very different and require different training.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Christopher Smith said:


> Roughly, I teach the dog to find the ball at the base of a barrier (fence/wall). Pretty standard stuff. I don't use place boards because they teach the dog to search, IME. I want my dog oriented and focused on running straight down center line to the barrier. I don't want him to think about anything else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the launcher is only going to make things worse.
> 
> 
> 
> (I misunderstood your question at first but I wrote all of this stuff so I'm posting it anyway.:razz: )
> 
> 
> Assuming you are teaching an IPO send out, I would get her going out for the ball to the fence really good and fast. After a few sessions of her going good and strong I would remove the toy and send her. Ask her to down. When she blows you off let her search for awhile. Tell her to down again. If she blows you off let her search for a while again. Continue doing this until she downs. Once she downs produce the toy from your pocket and give it to her.
> 
> 
> If you do this you will eliminate the reason for the dog to search. The dog learns that if you say down you are helping her out and telling her that the ball is not on the field it's in your pocket.
> 
> 
> 
> I see it all the time, but telling a dog to down while the toy is still on the field is not very smart training, IMO


Thanks for the info and the additional bit. My issue isn't with the down but the going out in a straight line and not breaking into searching ...but I think you got that once you realized you misunderstood my question.

Anyway ...Sch/IPO is new to me so please humor my questions. Is there always a barrier on the field (fence, wall, etc.)?


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## Christopher Smith

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Anyway ...Sch/IPO is new to me so please humor my questions. Is there always a barrier on the field (fence, wall, etc.)?


It's not required, like Ring, but most fields are fenced. All the fields that championships are held on that I have seen were fenced.


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## susan tuck

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Thanks for the info and the additional bit. My issue isn't with the down but the going out in a straight line and not breaking into searching ...but I think you got that once you realized you misunderstood my question.
> 
> Anyway ...Sch/IPO is new to me so please humor my questions. Is there always a barrier on the field (fence, wall, etc.)?


No, there isn't always a fence. One reason I prefer a send out stick to a fence. Also I can move my stick, since it's portable, it makes it easy to practice send outs at the park. I also like the fact that the dog can't see the stick.


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## Geoff Empey

Christopher Smith said:


> Jeff, was this for an IPO or Ring send out? I find that they are very different and require different training.


Kris we used my friends BSD-2 for both sports. I found it worked for both, though we were experimenting with a bunch of different things with many different tempered dogs. 

Personally I think it is more suited for the Ring send out. As if you use a ball or tug laid at the end of the field during the training your send out if you don't have a specific post to hang your toy from or placing it on the grass it more becomes more of a search than a send out. With the popper if the dog was ripping down the field and was off the target a bit we could pop the device when the dog was 5-10m away. Then the dog would always assume to go out towards that 40m line no matter instead of searching the end of the field for the reward it had a visual reward. So it is less willy nilly than the toy being laid on a placemat or attached to the fence post. Especially if it is a new field. 

It's a fun tool. I found by hiding it at the end of the field in the uncut grass tipped slightly so the kong would pop out on the cut grass, was always a fun surprise for any of the dogs that got rewarded with it. Especially so with a clicker foundation dog the pop of the solenoid has a very similar sound to a clicker that a dog would be hard pressed to hear from 40m away.


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