# Puppy Mills



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

www.hartwellkennels.com Check this out for yourself. Is this a puppy mill or what? I was there yesterday to pick up a female mal named "D" If my math is correct, her sire was 11 months old when bred. Look at how many different breeds he has. He's got puppys having puppys. He brought out an obedience trained GSD and she was so scared of him I wanted to punch him out. What do you guys think about people who exploit dogs in this manner and how could this be good for the breeds we love and try to breed for better lines and dogs?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This is where it would be nice to have a breed club that actually stood up for the dogs, instead of just taking in money and doing nothing.

At least the kennels are clean.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is where it would be nice to have a breed club


Take out the breed, a club in general would have been my inclination to use....a nice "could have had a V-8" smack on the forehead with it.....sorry, just aggravating to see stuff like that sometimes.  

Jeff is right about the place being clean though...

How is the female you picked up?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Never got her. He didn't care for me and my attitude towards his puppy mill. Sorry had to say what I had to say. He refused to give me the pup but that is ok with me. The person I was picking up the pup for has now got a good law suit. I hope it's good enough to put him and his puppy mill under but some how they always seemed to continue.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Kudos to you for voicing your opinion though. And hopefully more people notice and step up as well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Missouri is #1 in the USA for puppy mills. Plenty of laws to fight them just not enough manpower to do anything to slow the tide. 
Everyone on the planet should be aware by now that petshops are supplied by puppy mills. Puppy mills buy litters wholesale. Any legit breeders out there that sell wholesale........ Didn't think so! 
The Sunday paper is loaded with advertisers of multiple breeds. A HUGE red flag is "We deliver" or "Will meet you half way". 
My best buddies wife bought her Yorkie pup "to save it from that horrible place"! :evil: :evil: :evil: We dern near lost a friendship over that one.
I've gotten tossed out of half a dozen pet shops in my younger days. 
Seeing someone admiring a totally incorrect pup and hearing the clerk talking about what a great show dog this would make and me then trying to explain that a Dane isn't supposed to have blue eyes, or a beagle shouldn't have front feet that point in two different directions, or a Dalmation isn't supposed to have a spot as big as a dinner plate on it's side, yadda, yadda, yadda! 
Seeing people feeling sorry for the cute little puppy with the runny eyes/shakes/ $#!+ covered/etc/etc/ etc and feeling the need to "save them". 
I just stay out of them nowdays. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 
Unfortunately, if they are kept clean at these puppy mills little can be done. Some loose their licences because of improper paper work, etc but that takes man power and money to follow it through.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Everyone on the planet should be aware by now that petshops are supplied by puppy mills.



And the pet shops have plenty of other tricks up their collective sleeve too.... like letting the water bowl stay dry and the dogs unbrushed and otherwise looking either uncared-for or frightened, or both, so that people buy them to get them out of there .... just to be replaced by the next one in the assembly line.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I received a complaint from a Mr Chris Byers that runs the aforementioned kennel. He is evidently now also a member of this forum.

He feels that this thread has violated the rules of this forum.

The following forum rules were cited:



> 8. Do not insult other forums or websites.
> While we really like our forum, and many people here are here because of its tolerance of opinion, excellent (and free!) advice with experts, and its community, we do not allow posters to disparage other places on the web. All forums serve the purposes for which they are designed.
> 
> 9. No personal attacks, threats, or insults.
> If you cannot say it in polite company, don't. People should be able to come here and post without feeling like they will be attacked. Keep in mind that real names, real careers, real training experience, and real locations are posted here...it is quite easy for someone to feel very threatened by what you say. So think twice, post once.


A brief explanation of the spirit of these rules:

8. When this forum started, we attracted a great many people who were anti-various other forums on the internet. Forums whom WDF does not seek to have conflict with, so this rule was set in place in order to minimize inter-forum bashing during a period where there was plenty of it.

9. This rule was created with the intent of peace-keeping among forum members to keep topics on-topic and not let them turn into wars that were no longer relevant to the topic posted.

So it would seem that I am faced with a slight dilemma (not really) as to which code of ethics to follow.

Should I delete a thread, per the request of Mr Byers, which is not SOP for any topic posted on this forum (at most threads get locked) about an alleged puppy miller allegedly breeding many different breeds with alleged stud dogs that allegedly aren't even old enough to determine their true temperament, in order to follow the letter of the rules set forth on this forum.

Or should I leave the thread alone and allow our forum members to exercise their freedom of speech and follow the spirit of the rules as they were intended?

OK folks. Lets here it 

Obviously Mr Byers is more than welcome to defend his standpoint seeing that he is now a member of this forum.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

In the amount of time that I've been here, there isn't too much question about where I stand with the K-9 Pimps! In American you are allowed to make money, but to crank out puppies, one litter after another, is very wrong. Do what many folks do...GET A FREAKING JOB! Stop pimping out Fluffy every time she has a heat. Jerry glad you did what you did. Now, if more folks would tell these "Designer Breeders" and the Backyard Yahoos to pack sand and take a 9-5er, the SPCA and the "No Kill" groups would have to be understaffed for a reason! :-o


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Yike Mike, that is a predicament. 

Hopefully, Mr. Byers will take a little heed and realize what he is doing. 
It is really a sad thing, as this is why we are starting to see the weaker dogs sneak into the working world. 

I think the worst thing for me is seeing how young these dogs are that are being bred and used for stud service. 
Anyone that is in this to preserve the breed how it should be should know better than that. 

Shame on Mr. Byers. 

Anyway, do what ya gotta do Mike. Why doesn't Mr. Byers step in and speak to us about his operation? No one here has slammed him per say, and we are entitled to our opinions.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> ... if more folks would tell these "Designer Breeders" and the Backyard Yahoos to pack sand and take a 9-5er, the SPCA and the "No Kill" groups would have to be understaffed for a reason! :-o


Well, that saved me some typing, as a shelter volunteer and an owner of previously-owned "excess" dogs.




P.S. Oh, yeah -- and the rules cited are completely inapplicable.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

OK Mike I'll step up. There are some here who *do* give personal shots/attacks at folks who have posted. Profanity, personal shots, degrading comments, etc...There are some, like me, who do not call out folks by name, but give a broad-brushed spin to topic or issue. Understand everyone has their own thoughts and styles on training methods and K-9 things. (I hate the idea of clicker training and think it is a joke, others love it to death. Common ground, what works for you might not for me.) The thing that has me here is the freedom to express ideas, post facts as we have seen them, and to use the forum for an informational base.

If you weed out some of the hype and BS, there is a wealth of good information and personal help here, God knows I've pulled a mess from here! If someone is upset because their employment "style" offends many, then get a grip, maybe it is wrong. Personal attacks are wrong, attack the problem and not the person. However, if broad-brushed enough, the point can be made.

PM folks who need it, warn those who give the finger, and pull memberships from those who just don't care. Again, there is alot of GOOD that comes from here...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Connie if I saved you some typing, am I worth $5.00 an hour, mistakes included? \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Amazing how quickly he found out where to complain. Tell him I said to go **** himself, and his dogs are worth 1.50 at most. ****ing amatuer.=D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

I say leave it up. If Mr. Byers has something to say in his defense, then by all means, let him say it here. I for one am interested in hearing what he has to say, if anything.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I just looked at the Hartwell website. This text is at the bottom of every page now:
QUOTE
*Thank you for visiting our website*
please call 706 376 4521 to arrange 
a time to visit our kennel.

we offer 1/2 price Obedience Training for all puppies we sell call for more details.

I reach out to the all the working dog and pet dog owners whom may of been referred by some Kennel in the southern GA area 

I am a growing working Licensed kennel and go to great lengths to help people and their pets form long positive relationships 
Good luck to you jerry 
END QUOTE


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

I think he wants to start to throw mud at Jerry. It use to have my Kennel name listed until I kindly asked him to remove it. anyway if you don't up hold your own contract and want to act like an a$$ then that is what you get labled as. Jerry was middle man for another guy and got caught up in this mess. But I would have to refer back to Jeff's last post on the topic.........


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## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

Seems like someone is already a tad upset. But I hate to say it (okay, maybe I don't hate it) but Jerry didn't hurt this man's business. He alone can be attributed for that. He's the one that mucked up the sale, he's the one who had to show his ass. Which, in the end it worked out for the better. One less puppy bought at a puppy mill, and one more mill brought to the public's attention.

And for the love of God, please learn to spell the breed you're breeding! Rottweiler. It's even spelled correctly in the article that was copy and pasted about the breed!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I was caught in the middle but that's fine with me.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

I had a lady bring me a Labordoodle the other day to evaluate. She had just bought it. Poor dog was 20 months old and just off a litter of 9 that were 5 weeks old. Dog was afarid of its own shadow and anything in between. And for goddness don't raise your hand. When I said no socialization, poor breeding and possible abuse. You should have saw the look I got. The answer "but I know these people". My answer I call it like I SEE IT.


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

Any particular reason we have not heard from Mr. Byers on this subject and what transpired between he and Jerry on the day Jerry was present at his kennels. Come on Mr. Byers if Jerry is lying to us fill us all in and lets here your side.

Terry


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My comments were directed towards puppy mills in general. 
I know nothing of Mr Byers but if the shoe fits................
If not, please feel free to explain your side. That's the wonderful thing about this forum. Disagree with what you don't like and explain why! ;-)


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry, congratulations on making it on his website! Every page too! LOL 

Now for the sake of discussion........................ These types of people ARE NOT GOING AWAY! They have a MUCH MUCH bigger market than working lines dogs and the majority of the public thinks that teaching a dog to bite is crazy, don't think for a moment this isn't important, so what's the solution? Most American familys want a little dog that hopefully doesn't pee to much on the rug (cause it's common knowledge that small dogs can't be house trained, lol), that's all they're looking for, this is millions of people!

There's a ton of these guys, we all know it but i've never heard anyone give a stab at voicing a solution that would work. We live in the best country in the world and breeding shit "champions" is legal, Jerry probably did the right thing and walked away (Jerry, did the dog have a good pedigree? Why did someone choose that pup in the first place? etc.)

Another ironic thing is that people that bitch the most about other people breeding end up becoming backyard breeders themselves and don't think they are, now that's some funny stuff......


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Another ironic thing is that people that bitch the most about other people breeding end up becoming backyard breeders themselves and don't think they are, now that's some funny stuff......


:lol: :lol: That made me laugh. Too true.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff, you could not have said that any better. Finally something we agree on. :razz: 


Dad had asked me to ride along with him to pick up the pup, after hearing what had happend I am glad that I didn't go, seeing that I have this problem, "*I don't play well with dumb people". *I thought that dad had handled himself nicely considering the kind of person that he was dealing with. Its funny, Im still waiting for this guy Mr. Byers to respond.....................................still waiting...well, I guess when someone knows that they are in the wrong it is hard to respond with anything of value to add to the situation.


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Now for the sake of discussion........................ These types of people ARE NOT GOING AWAY! They have a MUCH MUCH bigger market than working lines dogs and the majority of the public thinks that teaching a dog to bite is crazy, don't think for a moment this isn't important, so what's the solution? Most American familys want a little dog that hopefully doesn't pee to much on the rug (cause it's common knowledge that small dogs can't be house trained, lol), that's all they're looking for, this is millions of people!


Hey! Some of us don't train bitework or have a need for a serious working dog and still wouldn't get a pup from a puppy mill! (Mostly, my dogs have been rescues. The one purebred dog I have is a field-line cocker spaniel, so I guess technically she is a 'working' dog, although she's never formally worked a day in her life.)

Unfortunately finding a good breeder takes time and effort, and a lot of rescues have bad press associated with too-strict adoption policies, so many people go for the quick reward of buying a dog from a pet store. (Often for ridiculously inflated prices. Recently locally there was a puppy mill puppy stolen from a pet store which was valued at $3000 or something bizarre originally. I mean, I can understand maybe paying that if the dog has training, or if you know the details of the lines it's from and so can reasonably predict it's a good investment, but $3000 for a dog which is just as much of a gamble in terms of genetics as a dog from the pound?)


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

It's certainly a strange website! I'm not sure what a Rotwieller is?

The Rotwieller (sic) bitch shown is said to be German bred (bred in Germany?) and yet is docked. If that is the case she would have to be over 8 years old.........


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Ian Forbes said:


> The Rotwieller (sic) bitch shown is said to be German bred (bred in Germany?) and yet is docked. If that is the case she would have to be over 8 years old.........


Man you pick up on everything. But you are right. No tail docking allowed in Germany anymore. [-(


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

All you have to do for the "Rotweiller" is look at the the pedigree. I am not sure about registries for the breed but all the way back those names would not come from a German kennel.

Funny thing about the statement concerning web boards is that anyone who actually was looking for a dog of particular lines or participating in a board like this would take one look at the odd mix of pedigrees and lack of recent titles OR working certifications [now think GSD, which has Am lines, German Show, German Working] and run................. and those have got to be the most unusual GSD puppies I have ever seen............


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Looks to me like a Mal jumped the fence. Not saying that is what happened but I agree with you Nancy. The really sad thing is that the two GSDs he has did come from a good breeder, Jendi Shepherds, I know this lady and have trained with her for years. If she knew she would have a duck fit, if you know what I mean. She likes the mix of working and show and has had good schutzhund dogs from it. That's what she breeds for and she has a plan. MONEY is the plan for some and not to better the breed. Back yard breeders are no diffenent. The dog world is small, good breeders know good breeders.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Why not tell her? I'm sure she'd like to know where her dogs ended up.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I have been kicking that around in my head. I don't want to hurt her in any way but I too believe she needs to know. This will hurt her for she has put a lot of time and effort in her breedings. I know as well as she knows, that after a dog is sold you have NO control after that. She won't like it and I bet she will never sell a dog to any puppy mill that she knows are puppy mills. Telling her and people is the only way to do that. If I'm wrong with this line of thought please let me know, anyone.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

She can always put a limited registration on her dogs....................so there is a way to control that to some extent.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I would want to know.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I would want to know.


So would I. 100%.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So would I. 100%.


x3! 

I would definitely want to know.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I wish every breeder sold on limited. Sure would slow allot of these millers down. No more AKC reg pups or they would have to bunk some fake papers. I know I'll NEVER sell a pup without limited reg, not even to my own mother! This guy probably sold that poor lady a real line to get her pups. Jerry maybe this is her wakeup call and she can add that limited to her future pups.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Michelle, 
your missing the point, puppy millers don't give a crap about papers they'll just make them up , neither do the people buying the dogs. We care about this stuff but 99% of the general public buying puppy mill dogs could care less.


I would never breed dogs but i would never buy a dog on a limited registration either. When i buy the dog i own it and i'll decide what i want to do with it. 
AL


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Michelle,
> your missing the point, puppy millers don't give a crap about papers they'll just make them up , neither do the people buying the dogs. We care about this stuff but 99% of the general public buying puppy mill dogs could care less.


Even when the breeder has attempted to be responsible (the breeder of our cocker was VERY CLEAR that if we had any problem with her at all, or needed to re-home her, for ANY reason, she would be happy to help out/take the dog back) people will be idiots. One of Foxy's brothers ended up (we think) in a shelter because it turned out the woman who bought him expected her kids to take total responsibility (wtf?) and then got upset when the pup was nippy and had no manners (gee, think maybe no one was TEACHING HIM) and gave him away to a neighbor, who turned around a week later and took him to the shelter because he "bit" someone. The breeder was RIGHT THERE to take the dog, but the woman didn't want to admit she'd made a mistake or something, so the poor dog had to suffer.

(I'm hoping he found a new home because he would've been a quite cute little puppy at the time. But maybe not if they told the shelter he was "vicious".) (Meanwhile, we would've happily taken him in also.)

(I still can't get over the stupidity of getting ANY dog and expecting your kids to take full responsibility for it, to the point of refusing to do things for the benefit of the dog yourself- as far as I'm concerned, the dog comes first, and shouldn't be made to suffer in the name of teaching your kids some kind of lesson.)


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Michelle,
> your missing the point, puppy millers don't give a crap about papers they'll just make them up , neither do the people buying the dogs. We care about this stuff but 99% of the general public buying puppy mill dogs could care less.
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see how I'm missing the point, when I even mentioned they can fake papers myself, but some may not want to bother. May as well pull out all the stops and do all you can to protect your pups. Not sure what the issue is with limited, if your not going to even think of breeding??? Makes not a lick of sense. I don't give a damn about those who decide not to buy because of limited reg. Only makes you wonder what their true intentions are? Limited is only different from full reg, in the sense that until lifted, pups cannot be registered out of that dog. You can still title, show, anything else pup have papered pups. I'm not seeing the big deal. I wouldn't sell my dogs to people who want to breed anyway, I'd screen for that. I hope to sell to the military and Police, real working homes. We all kow dogs wash out or people change pace and even say one thing and due another. I just wanna make damn sure if someone breeds my dogs, they either due it my way and legal or illegal and hope like hell they get busted doing it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The limited registration is only as good as both participants. EFd up paper work is one of the ways that puppy millers get fined. 
Request paper work for a litter of 12 pups from the AKC. Who's to say you even bred two dogs. Your still going to get 12 new registration forms. You then buy, steal, find some crap piece of dog that resembles the GSD. You now have a new REGISTERED dog for your breeding program. 
It happens all the time!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I've bred several litters of Border Collies, most go to pet homes and few people want the papers. They do want to know were the animal came from and what they are getting. In the big picture, it is cheaper and better to sell for a few dollars less and give Limited Registration on the puppy. I also did a thing that if they spayed or neutered and brought me a letter from their vet, I would give $50 back on their purchase...a big plus with that idea. To date no puppies have ever been returned.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Hey! Some of us don't train bitework or have a need for a serious working dog 

So........WTF you doing here then???? I would love an answer, as this is a serious question. I mean, the point of this forum is for working dog people, and as a working dog person, a working dog that doesn't work should be culled, as people like to walk around with their pathetic stuffed toy cull, and talk shit......meanwhile the dog is pathetically pointless.

So yeah, what brought you here ?????


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: She can always put a limited registration on her dogs....................so there is a way to control that to some extent.

Quote: I wish every breeder sold on limited. Sure would slow allot of these millers down. No more AKC reg pups or they would have to bunk some fake papers. I know I'll NEVER sell a pup without limited reg, not even to my own mother!

Puppy millers have their own registries. People just want a dog.

Limited registration is an insult to owners like me. If you have these strange doubts about people, maybe you are too much of a control freak, and should leave breeding to others. When you sell a dog, it is no longer your dog, no matter what "your" perception of the situation is.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Hey! Some of us don't train bitework or have a need for a serious working dog
> 
> So........WTF you doing here then???? I would love an answer, as this is a serious question. I mean, the point of this forum is for working dog people, and as a working dog person, a working dog that doesn't work should be culled, as people like to walk around with their pathetic stuffed toy cull, and talk shit......meanwhile the dog is pathetically pointless.
> 
> So yeah, what brought you here ?????


Gee, maybe she's here because I told her this was a great place to learn and there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this board 

:evil::evil::evil::evil:

Be nice


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

It is sad to say but Jeff is so right. When it's sold it's sold. With or without papers. Papers can and has been fabricated for purpose. All we can do is let as many people know as possible. Even good breeders sell dogs and those owners re-sale those dogs and on and on. Bottom line, good breeders don't sell to puppy mills.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I soooooo used to give a shit, but I have been faked out so badly by people, especially the last few years of doing rescue, by people that got their answers off the internet. The last thing you want to do is give a rescue dog the exact same piece of shit hiome that he had in the first place, but I have done it.

I just started looking at it like a numbers game after a while. That is why I have hesitated with breeding for so long.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

"Bottom line, good breeders don't sell to puppy mills." That makes no freaking sense Jerry! You just said your friends pups ended up at a mill. I'm sure she didn't hand the dogs over knowingly to a puppy mill, they guy lied his ass off and told her some BS story..."I'm a pet home" whatever.

I know how papers are faked and I know it happens allot, not just with puppy mills either! I also don't give 2 shits about Jeff being offended by a limitted reg or whatever else. Everyone has their own criteria and I feel safer knowing I did all I could to keep the pups safe (that includes breeding the life out of them). It's not about being a control freak. It's more like a screening process to weed out the a holes. If you don't want to abide by my contract, you can go elsewhere that's fine. I'm cool with telling people to kick rocks, I don't want to sell to the GP anyway! Too many jerkoffs will tell you they want a pet or working dog, change their mind, quit training or just decide to breed fluffy for shits and giggles. Uh uh, sorry not going to let you get away with it so easily. You'll have to lie and cheat to do it with my pups, and hopefully you'll get caught in the process. DNA is getting better all the time and my dogs will all be DNA'd for future refference.

My thoughts are...I don't "want" to sell to someone who isn't OK with limited reg. If your not someone who plays by my rules, your not someone I want owning a pup of my breeding anyway. Go screw someone else and their breedings over. I'm not trying to make money or sell high quantities of pups either. I'll breed when I want a litter and sell the few left to select homes, prefferably police and miltary. I'm about the dogs, not bending over backwards for a stupid ass customer. You can't make everybody happy but you can do things right or in what way you see best. That's all anybody really can do. I expect puppy buyers to follow the rules I set for myself before breeding.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Hold on there sweetheart, that's not at all what I said.
"Bottom line, good breeders don't sell to puppy mills" The breeder I was talking about didn't and she is a good breeder. If you go to his sight and look at the pedigrees ( OFA results ) you will see the dogs that have her kennel name. The owner of the dogs, at the time of the OFA was someone else. This someone else sold the dogs to him OR to someone else that sold the dogs to him. Again, and I stck to this, Good breeders, don't sell dogs to puppy mills.
The homework should be done by the seller. All he can do is sell to whom he has check out or knows. After that he has no control at where the dog goes. If the buyer sells the dog to someone the breeder has no say so.
Example Michelle of how your dogs can wind up in a puppy mill. Say you sell to Jeff and you know he will work your dog the way you expect. Jeff trains and is very happy with the dog he got from you. Then life happens, Jeff gets a divorce and is living in the back of his truck, under a piece of cardboard. The only eating utensils is his pocket knife. ON and On. He does have this really good dog that he can sell to better his conditions. He would love to get rid of that cardboard and replace it with a nice rusty piece of tin that want let rain in. Sorry Jeff but Jeff, Fred, William whoever will do this.
Limited registration: If I buy a dog from anyone I will get full registration or I'll find another seller. The seller has the right to sell to whoever they want but too does the buyer have the right to buy from whoever they want. I not saying what you do is wrong by no means. Even the dog that's sold with a limited reg. is in puppy mills.
There's NO good way to stop puppy mills and I don't think they will ever be stopped. We can sure slow them down though and hope they will stop. As long as people buy from them they will continue. Word of mouth is the best way to get that info out and with the web is perfect to do this.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I'd hope that Jeff would call me and I'd try my damndest to buy the dog back from him. This is the way the people I know work. First right of refusal. If I couldn't or didn't want to buy the dog back, then that would be my bad. I'd cross my fingers and hope I did my homework with Jeff and that he had a good enough head on his shoulders to home the dog in the best place he could find. I know you can't control everything when a pup leaves your place but a good breeder will try his best, to do all he can to bennefit his pups and buyers too. If not, you may as well hand them out at the local Walmart and kiss them goodbye, no garantees, no contact with the new owners, no nothing! 

I know the guy who I bought my dogs from is just waiting for me to send him a green dog. LOL He teases me all the time, "ready to get rid of that dog yet? He's a real shitter you know, put him on he next flight." If for any reason I need to get rid of my dogs, the breeder will be right there. He knows his dogs lines the best and I trust him more than anyone to care for them, should something happen here. I'll do the same for my little shits too.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ohhhh, in a perfect world......wouldn't that be great y'all? [-o< :-# :mrgreen:

(not directed at anyone here at all, but rather, all puppy mill shit pisses me off.)


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Hey! Some of us don't train bitework or have a need for a serious working dog
> 
> So........WTF you doing here then???? I would love an answer, as this is a serious question. I mean, the point of this forum is for working dog people, and as a working dog person, a working dog that doesn't work should be culled, as people like to walk around with their pathetic stuffed toy cull, and talk shit......meanwhile the dog is pathetically pointless.
> 
> So yeah, what brought you here ?????


Have you perhaps noticed the non-bitework forums here? Agility? Service dogs? Hunting?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry , excellent points, that was what i was trying to say.

Michelle, what makes you such a good breeder and not someone else? You bred your dog, why wasn't it on a limited reg?I think you can only sell to inexperienced folks with a limited reg, again if i buy a dog its mine to do with whatever i choose, guess i'll never be getting a pup from you, lol


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Your right Al, you won't and I haven't bred any of my current dogs yet and wont until they are titled and OFA'd. I wouldn't mind a bit if my dogs were on a limited, it can be lifted you know? Most people have reasonable rules and have the reg changed to a full reg once those are met. Still allot of "pet" homes don't know how to or have the resources to make up fake papers. I'm not planning on selling to puppy mills but any a hole can decide to breed his bitch at 9 months and her first heat. I'm all for making it harder for the duchebags doing so and making a profit. It's the lesser of 2 evils Al. Either the breeders take charge or the gov't will and that wont be pretty! Take a peek at California AB 1634. We either regulate ourselves or good old Uncle Sam will shut it all down. AKC doesn't do shit to help breeder improve their practices. The breeders have to take it upon theirselves by instututing more structure, laying some simple ground rules. 

I don't recall calling myself a good breeder or better than anybody. I wouldn't even call myself a "breeder" period. I have a full time job and it isn't in dogs. My dogs are my joy and my hobby. All I'm trying to say is that we need to be more responsible. Everything is throw away these days, our cars, toys and even clothes. Messed up? Get another, trash that one! I don't believe every US citizen deserves to own a dog. An even smaller group of them need to have the type of dog I'm trying for. If you want to look down on me for setting up rules for myself and anyone interested in a dog I breed, that's your right. But it's also my right to do my thing. I think I'll sleep fine knowing you wont buy a pup from me.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Jerry , excellent points, that was what i was trying to say.
> 
> Michelle, what makes you such a good breeder and not someone else? You bred your dog, why wasn't it on a limited reg?I think you can only sell to inexperienced folks with a limited reg, again if i buy a dog its mine to do with whatever i choose, guess i'll never be getting a pup from you, lol


Or me, either, as I plan on selling all of my puppies on limited registration. If the new owners title the puppy, then I will grant them full registration and they can breed to their heart's content if they so desire, but not until I have proof that the puppy's hips/elbows are passing and the puppy has been titled. I don't think that's such a bad thing.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I think it's kinda funny you talk as If I'm the only one doing it! People all over every day, are selling on limited and not just to amature nobodies! Allot of people believe in the FCI standards not AKC.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks Kristen, you kinda proved my point.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

My loss i'm sure. Good luck with your breedings and training!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Guys, please there's nothing wrong either way. However we sell is ok and I, like I said, wouldn't buy a limited reg. as Al wouldn't. Michelle has every right to sell with limited reg. Michelle is not alone with this. Many people do it that way. The real problem of puppy mills is not with this. It's scum who could care less about keeping the dog as it was bred to be. They only want the money, money, money. 

How do we stop puppy mills? What would you do if you came across a kennel doing this? Would you turn a blind eye or would you try to expose it to as many people as possible? Is there anything else you would do? Within the means of the law.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Guys, please there's nothing wrong either way. However we sell is ok and I, like I said, wouldn't buy a limited reg. as Al wouldn't. Michelle has every right to sell with limited reg. Michelle is not alone with this. Many people do it that way. *The real problem of puppy mills is not with this. It's scum who could care less about keeping the dog as it was bred to be. They only want the money, money, money.
> 
> How do we stop puppy mills? What would you do if you came across a kennel doing this? Would you turn a blind eye or would you try to expose it to as many people as possible? Is there anything else you would do? Within the means of the law.*


Thanks, Jerry, for getting us back on track. This is a worthwhile topic, IMO.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> How do we stop puppy mills? What would you do if you came across a kennel doing this? Would you turn a blind eye or would you try to expose it to as many people as possible? Is there anything else you would do? Within the means of the law.


I'd turn them in, post it on the web, in the local paper even if I had to purchase an ad to do it. It's akin to prostituting kids. Taking advantage of those who can't protect themselves. I'd call animal control and whatever else I could think to do to stop the problem. It all depends on what they are doing wrong. Diplorable conditions, ripping people off, steeling dogs, selling dogs not belonging to them, duping people (claiming dog is something it is not), faking papers, breeding puppies at their first heat? In truth there is very little the law will do regardless. Getting the word out to the public is the best idea.


Al, ther is no lacking for GSD breeders so I'll ignore your smartass comment but I don't need luck in training, I'll save some luck with good genetics thrown in, for clean OFA's.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> It's akin to prostituting kids. quote]
> 
> UUMMMM, No. VERY, VERY different.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Yea, differnt in the way that prostitution is illegal and puppy mills are not. Both are still vile acts that shouldn't take place. 1 you can accuse without proof and right off everyone will be all over it looking to sink the badguy. The other you have to compile proof, days, weeks, years, of footage, dead bodies and pretty much slap a judge with a dead puppy to get a judgment. Some cases dogs are taken but that does nothing to prevent the a holes from going out and buying more and starting right over. How often go you see anybody jailed for milling? Handfull of times a year. Doesn't look like a huge effort to stop it coinsidering how many their are opperating.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: My thoughts are...I don't "want" to sell to someone who isn't OK with limited reg. If your not someone who plays by my rules, your not someone I want owning a pup of my breeding anyway. Go screw someone else and their breedings over.

So here we go again with chick breeders. Look, if you want to pay for the dogs food for it's entire life, all it's medical bills, and pay for MY time and effort to train the dog, then fine, do whatever you want with the registration. If not, then why the **** is the dog still under your control there, control freak ? ? ? ?

If I am paying money, then the dog is mine. If I am feeding and housing and training, then the dog is mine. I do not see where you are producing these amazing dogs that gives you much say at all. I don't know anyone here in the states that is just knocking breeding out of the park to the point where I am going to go along with that kind of nonsense. 

Breeders like you do not think about the backlash that comes from your BS. This is one of the biggest reasons people will go to a backyard breeder, they do not want to pay for a dog, and then be told what to do with their dog. I have seen dogs from breeders like you in the shelters, and after finding out where the dog came from, asked what the deal was, and a large percentage were just that. Amazing how you do not see the big picture.=D> =D> =D> 

Who is to say that the dog you sell will turn out to be all that, or that the person that you sold the dog to, if not all ****led up with your BS control freak rules, might turn out to be a much better breeder than you ? ? ?

Too much bullshit in the dog world as it is with the "paperwork" being so ****ing important. What has the AKC ever done for any of the breeds I love ? ? ? :grin: #-o #-o 

And how many people just bred a dog stupid to all sorts of stuff just to spite the breeder ? ? ? ? I know a few of those as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: How often go you see anybody jailed for milling?

Ever been to a hog farm ??? How about cattle ranch???? Dogs are not people, sorry, nor should they EVER be considered as such.

Quote:


Michelle Kehoe said:


> It's akin to prostituting kids. quote]
> 
> UUMMMM, No. VERY, VERY different.
> 
> Jay, you are so right. Humans are not the same as a dog. The law is completely different, and this is where people lose it. A dog is livestock, a child is a human being.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And my spin again...*puppy mills* are like prostitution, both have been around forever, both are disliked by many, it takes big bucks to get in the door*, and when you're done ain't much to show for... The bottomline is simple: don't like it, don't support it. 

It takes the same amount of money, time, and training to feed a pure bred animal as it does a mut or "Designer POS." Unless there is a real good reason to own pedigree stock, the SPCA is killing off knock-off Designer Dogs all day. Save a muts life and get one. Me, I'll keep and enjoy my junk. 

* so I've been told. =;


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

LOL I knew it was only a matter of time before Jeff flipped enough to throw the female card out there. Not sure how the sex of a breeder means quality or not. Again, your fighting over control and wont buy because you can't be in control, so who's the control freak? I have a few simple ground rules, not telling people how long to excersize their dogs, or where they should sleep, what dog food to feed, they just need to pass OFA, be adult age and hopefully titled in something or working a job, then walla...full reg. Let's get back to puppy mills because that's what this thread is about. I'm hearing people don't like it but not many handing out solutions or ideas.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: LOL I knew it was only a matter of time before Jeff flipped enough to throw the female card out there.

I have many women friends that admit that women are one of the biggest problems in dogsports today. Most breeders are women, and there is a difference in what they produce. If you can prove me wrong great, but since most people are still getting dogs from overseas, I doubt it will happen. 

Since dogs are livestock, there is nothing to be done.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Quote: LOL I knew it was only a matter of time before Jeff flipped enough to throw the female card out there.

AHHH the ole female card.....and I have to admit that it does come into play sometimes. 

I REALLY wish there were more men handling search dogs. 

Anyway...back to puppy mills. 

The only true way to stop puppy mills is for people to STOP supporting them by buying the puppies. 

Unfortunately I do not see that happening in the near future so therefore......we bitch or complain. Pretty much all we can do unless people start waking up.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote : I REALLY wish there were more men handling search dogs. 


Man, when it is this easy......


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: How often go you see anybody jailed for milling?
> 
> Ever been to a hog farm ??? How about cattle ranch???? Dogs are not people, sorry, nor should they EVER be considered as such. ... Jay, you are so right. Humans are not the same as a dog. The law is completely different, and this is where people lose it. A dog is livestock, a child is a human being.


Yes, of course a dog is not a child.

But slaughter stock and working (or any) dogs are also not alalogous.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Moderated - personal attack deleted.

I also have allot of male friends that admit men are a holes, should I disassociate myself with all men because of it? I used to drive for a living and had a class A, I'll admit allot of woman can't drive for shi#, I'm one of those others that can. We can play this game all day, it does nothing to prove your point, we are all already aware your a wise ass.  Let me worry about my dogs and my breeding program and who I sell my dogs to.

I'm aware dogs are livestock and I'm not some crazed PETA or pet nutjob. But Jeff do you use the livestock status as reason to treat your dogs with disrespect and less than the best care you can give them? Funny you bring up pigs, I was just at the fair watching my daughter show hers, she got 5th place in market hog. Pretty damn cool for her first year raising an oinker. Still does it make it OK to not feed and water them properly, keep their pens clean and breed them responsibly because they are only livestock? Knowing how much you love dogs, I hardly think that's the case, so quit being a hardass.

What would you do if your neighbor had 15 Mals in cages and was breeding them with no regard to age, bloodlines or work ethic? What if he has 12 bitches and 3 stud dogs he used on all 3 bitches no matter how the last litter turned out? What if he is making profits hand over fist, while his dogs barely survive in his dark dank barn and your small reputable breeding program is barely making it? You can't find buyers for your dogs because Joe Puppy Miller, sells his at $500 and yours are $850? What if the Mal starts getting a bad rap in your area because of this guys junk prodgeny? Now nobody wants to take a chance on your Mals because their bad experience convinced them it's a shitty breed.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

A dog is a Companion/working Utility animal

Livestock is Livestock.

Maybe Jeff is Amish 8-[


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> A dog is a Companion/working Utility animal
> 
> Livestock is Livestock.


Exactly. Not analogous.

No matter what the dog is bred for, unless it's for slaughter, it's a faulty analogy.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

;80711 said:


> Hows that ring title coming along Jeff? As long as you've been plugging along at it, I know some woman who have titled more than one.


Sorry, not directing this at or sticking up for anyone here at all, BUT, the reason I like this board is it does not resort to crap like this.

Almost ALL discussions here are done so without finger pointing, name calling or bashing someones dogs. 

As long as the advice, opinions and help is valid, there is no reason to resort to crap like this. 

I apologize for my outburst, but I have had enough, "someone is better than someone else" today. 

The only ones here that get shit are the ones that deserve it and quite frankly, I see NONE of those people here in this thread. 

I had to really learn how to take "blunt" criticism and it was tough......and it is still tough sometimes......but I suck it up most of the time and take it for what it is....."someone elses opinion". 

Does it matter???? Nope, not unless you allow it to matter.......


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I have to say (and it might be just a bad day at Black Rock for me to), that I agree.

It has zero to do with Jeff, who doesn't need,* or even want, anyone defending him.

It has everything to do with not dragging crap from elsewhere into a thread to use in an attack or a counter-attack.

Let's not do it.








*or deserve :-\"


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> What would you do if your neighbor had 15 Mals in cages and was breeding them with no regard to age, bloodlines or work ethic? What if he has 12 bitches and 3 stud dogs he used on all 3 bitches no matter how the last litter turned out? What if he is making profits hand over fist, while his dogs barely survive in his dark dank barn and your small reputable breeding program is barely making it? You can't find buyers for your dogs because Joe Puppy Miller, sells his at $500 and yours are $850? What if the Mal starts getting a bad rap in your area because of this guys junk prodgeny? Now nobody wants to take a chance on your Mals because their bad experience convinced them it's a shitty breed.


And back on topic.... what* would* you do?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Sorry but just dishing it back. You get what you give. I'm done with this thread as it isn't even on subject anymore.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> It takes the same amount of money, time, and training to feed a pure bred animal as it does a mut


Does that little peice of paper make the dog worth more somehow, Howard ??


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Here's a solution in the news! 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f38/saudi-authorities-put-leash-puppy-love-8273/

I'm only half joking. As long as we have the luxury to view pets as family members, there will be a demand for puppies and puppy mills. The only way to stop it is for there not to be a demand. I don't believe education will do it. It will take extreme economic or political hardship to change the demand. Only when people get hungry enough that "Fluffy" starts to look like livestock, will puppy mills go out of business. However, they will come back when life starts to get easy again. Should still be treated like prostitution, drugs etc.... Just don't expect it to completely go away.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

A question here,
What constitutes a puppy mill? Let's compile a list of things that would constitute a puppy mill. I'll start,
1- Breeding puppys to get puppys.
2- Unkept kennels and dogs.
3- Having multiple breeds.

OK who has #4, 5 ,6 ,7 and on and on, who's next?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

#4-selling to pet stores and unsuspecting or unknowledgable buyers


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> A question here,
> What constitutes a puppy mill? Let's compile a list of things that would constitute a puppy mill. I'll start,
> 1- Breeding puppys to get puppys.
> 2- Unkept kennels and dogs.
> ...


I can agree with 1 and 2 but you might be suprised at how some well known breeders keep their dogs.

I believe a mill is one who breeds with little to NO reguard with the purpose of what they produce and who they go to.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> A question here,
> What constitutes a puppy mill? Let's compile a list of things that would constitute a puppy mill.


So far:

1- Breeding puppies to get puppies.
2- Unkempt kennels and dogs.
3- Breeding multiple breeds.
4- Selling to pet stores and unsuspecting or unknowledgeable buyers.
5- Breeding with no regard for purpose or intended buyer.

What about breeding dogs with unknown (or actually bad) health histories?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What about breeding dogs with unknown (or actually bad) health histories?


I would say that constitutes #6 Connie.....

#7 would be....breeding dogs with known health issues


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Breeding dogs when you know the paper work on them is bs!
Therer are a ton of clean puppy mills out there. My own daughter's husband bought their Chi dog from a "really nice, clean looking place". All the dogs are registered under one of those mystery registration bodies that no one has ever heard of. 
By a stroke of luck it's a well ballanced (in the head) and healthy dog. 
My kids know better but hubby wanted to get her the Chi dog that she had wanted.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

This is working out very well. Let's keep these going and then see if we can, From this list, spot the major reason we think a puppy mill is a puppy mill. Maybe then, we as a good dog trainers and keepers of our breeds, can publish our findings somewhere. Even if we publish our findings on our own sites so the general public knows what to look for in a puppy mill. This would be one excellent way to spread the word on puppy mills.

Just this morning and it's early, I had a women tell me that she and her husband just bought 8 schnauzers(sp). I asked her WHY and of course she said to breed. Go figure.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> A dog is a Companion/working Utility animal
> 
> Livestock is Livestock.
> 
> Maybe Jeff is Amish 8-[


*STOP RIGHT THERE!* In some parts of the country, sheep ain't sheep. They're a good date for the prom! =;  ;-) 

Anything that looks like sheep on MY website are really hybred dogs...for the record. :^o Quiet Jerry, Geoff, and any others from the peanut gallery!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Does that little peice of paper make the dog worth more somehow, Howard ??


The paper is ONLY as good as the product which is produced! Take the US dollar for example, now how say you? Mike, what is the Euro rate to the dollar? $1.50 to the dollar???

When breeding and NOT creating a puppy mill, many factors play into the price and breeding program. Most puppy mills that I know about are not into the working abilities of the animal or into "creating" a better outcome. The piece of paper is a store bought "feel good slip." It boils down to cheap labor and high volume profits. If you train for Schutzhund and titles or awards hang on a wall, these are some "selling" points for a breeding program. If you are producing dogs for law enforcement, you can showcase some of your offspring and the dope found, lost persons found, or bite work used in connection with officer assistance.

Look at the puppy mill ads: "Big bone beauty," "Full blood," "Gets along well with others," "Family guard dog." If you go to any pet shop that is an outlet for puppies, it is a safe bet they have some connection to some "interesting breeders." And again with the Designer Dogs, what design or standard was used to create this little ball of fluff? What genetic background was used to promote the better breed?

Many dogs found today are crosses of old world animals. Look what went into the Dutch Shepherd, Mastiff, Black Russian, Chessie and the list goes on. Puppy mills are out there because some people just DON'T care. All they want is a neat little thing to entertain their kids. Try getting an education, the stuff worked for me! #-o

Gerry the paper is a small part of the total picture, important in many venues...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I think #7 and #6 could be combined: We can call this #6
#6-Breeding dogs with known and unknown health issues.
#7- Won't stand behind health guarantee, if one is given at sale.
#8- NO health guarantee
#9- No proof of vaccinations.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> #9- No proof of vaccinations.




Hold on there with that one. There are several breeders that 'Naturally Rear' their dogs and puppies, and do not vaccinate. These people can hardly be called puppymills just because they don't give shots.



**I realize that this is only ONE of the critera, and that puppymills are going to satisfy more than just this one (ie: breeding unhealthy dogs AND not providing proof of vax), but just because a breeder doesn't vax doesn't make them a puppymill and certainly doesn't make them less worthy of getting your business than a breeder that does vax. :wink:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I agree with Kristen.....one of my dogs has never had vaccinations and probably never will. (except for rabies, as when I travel it is required)

All my other dogs have had their "puppy" vaccs but are now on minimal to no vaccines as well.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I also agree, some people don't. Like you said, this is only one of the criterias.

My idea about puppy mills is how many of the criteras are not met. Same token, if the kennels are clean, does that not make them a puppy mill. Naw they are still a puppy mill.


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Hold on there with that one. There are several breeders that 'Naturally Rear' their dogs and puppies, and do not vaccinate. These people can hardly be called puppymills just because they don't give shots.


On the other hand, most people who don't choose to vaccinate will be able to sensibly discuss their reasons for making that choice, whereas a puppy mill may well CLAIM they've given the vaccinations, but with no proof.

(Granted, a smart puppy mill will read up on the reasons for not vaccinating, and use that as an excuse to simply not vaccinate, but then you still can get them on other points on the list.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kris Dow said:


> On the other hand, most people who don't choose to vaccinate will be able to sensibly discuss their reasons for making that choice, whereas a puppy mill may well CLAIM they've given the vaccinations, but with no proof.


Absolutely.

The number of reputable breeders who do limited- or no-vax protocols is growing.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

How about a limit on how many times a single bitch has been bred. I am NOT a breeder so what is the healthy limit for a bitch to breed? And what is the age limit to where one should stop breeding her? On the flip side, what is too young for female and male to bred? If they are too young how do know what they produce and how has this young dog proved themselves to be of breeding material?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not a breeder either, so this is from the POV of expecting no breeding before certain genetic problems have time to present.

Dogs with allergies should not be bred, for example. Allergies usually present between ages one and three, but age two is pretty safe if there has been no manifestation at all, I believe, from statistics of the declining age in dogs first presenting with allergies.

In fact, several problems present by age two.

Do the breeders among us use age two as a general guideline?

What about the rest:



jay lyda said:


> How about a limit on how many times a single bitch has been bred. I am NOT a breeder so what is the healthy limit for a bitch to breed? And what is the age limit to where one should stop breeding her?....


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

All good guestions but the puppy millers would laugh and tell us to go away (like the guy did to Jerry).

There's an all pets club half a mile from my house and the owners actually believe that they're buying their dogs from reputable breeders! Like Jerry, i said that they were puppy mill dogs and one of the owners brought out a lot of fancy brochures and i could see how easily someone could be fooled. They take excellent care of the pups in the store, enviromentally controlled glass kennels, clean as hell and the local vet takes care of the pups, with that said , every single dog in there is a puppy mill dog, but it falls on deaf ears. The place is very busy and they sell a lot of animals, birds, lizards, snakes, rabbits, mice, etc, but it sucks to see puppy mill dogs the most.........................

Oh and there's limited reg on their dogs, LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: But slaughter stock and working (or any) dogs are also not alalogous.

To you maybe, but they are still livestock to many many people.

The Amish do a really nice job of producing healthy little dogs, and lots of them. They are just another thing to produce to raise money. If you want them shut down, you would have to go to the USDA to do so, and as long as the animals are healthy and the areas they live in are clean, then there is nothing that you can do, or quite honestly should do. I know a lot of "working" and "show" people that their dogs live in squallor compared to these "puppy mill" dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am gonna do this ion pieces, as I had a good post written and then was bumped before I could post it.

Vaccines. 

Most millers that I know vaccinate their dogs. I know a breeder (female) that insists that "her" pups eat raw, and are not vaccinated. Wait till one of these pups gets distemper or some fun stuff like that, and gets a whole bunch of dogs sick. The only reason you can vaccinate so mildly is the fact that so many dogs were vaccinated in the past. That kind of shit drives me nuts. So if the dog is really handler aggro, does she pay the doctor bills ? ? ? ?

Of course as most of you know, I do not need defending, although it is nice to see that a few people see what I am saying and not necessarily HOW I am saying it.

** Mod deleted personal attack **

Sort of a sad attempt at me Michelle, really, next time do try harder.:twisted:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am gonna do this [in] pieces, as I had a good post written and then was bumped before I could post it. ... Vaccines. ... Most millers that I know vaccinate their dogs. I know a breeder (female) that insists that "her" pups eat raw, and are not vaccinated. Wait till one of these pups gets distemper or some fun stuff like that, and gets a whole bunch of dogs sick. The only reason you can vaccinate so mildly is the fact that so many dogs were vaccinated in the past. ...



Yes, I'd be afraid to demand a no-vaccine protocol from buyers. 

(Limited-vaccine protocols like the one Jean Dodds recommends -- that's different, because it has been titers-tested _ad infinitum.)_


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> How about a limit on how many times a single bitch has been bred. I am NOT a breeder so what is the healthy limit for a bitch to breed? And what is the age limit to where one should stop breeding her? On the flip side, what is too young for female and male to bred? If they are too young how do know what they produce and how has this young dog proved themselves to be of breeding material?


There is allot of dispute between breeders here. Some say 3 litters in a lifetime others many more. My opinion is use the bitches health and appearance as a guidline. Also her quality and pups quality needs to be taken into consideration. Some bitches do well with back to back breedings, others look like death warmed over and take many months to recover, before being bred again. 

Example Steffi Teikerhook had 7 litters in her lifetime, wasn't bred until age 3, skipped a heat, bred 4 times in a row, skipped, I'm not sure of 1 litter, no date of birth is given but it's the M litter and her litter before that was the I at age 7.5. I'm going to assume Koose bred her right back at age 8 for that last M litter.(Don't kill me if someone else knows otherwise, I'm just guessing on that M litter with no date for birth) When bitches are up in age, it is best to not skip a heat, it raises the chance she will never produce again. (Or so I have been told by experienced breeders)

7 litters seems like allot to me but this bitch was one of Koos' favorites, she produced Orry v Tiekerhook 2x WUSV Sieger and 1996 FCI Champion, who went on to produce many great dogs for von Haus Antverpa, von Blitzen Stein and other kennels. Many great dogs now have Steffi in their 5th gen. My own male is linebred 5-5 on Steffi.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> They are just another thing to produce to raise money. If you want them shut down, you would have to go to the USDA to do so, and as long as the animals are healthy and the areas they live in are clean....


I understand that. However, the Pennsylvania puppy mill uproar comes largely from undercover video of breeding sheds with dogs in wire cages stacked on each other (in unventilated areas) so that all but the top cages are inundated with urine and feces; the health of the breeding stock (living in filth) was blatantly terrible in videos I watched. Terrible.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I understand that. However, the Pennsylvania puppy mill uproar comes largely from undercover video of breeding sheds with dogs in wire cages stacked on each other (in unventilated areas) so that all but the top cages are inundated with urine and feces; the health of the breeding stock (living in filth) was blatantly terrible in videos I watched. Terrible.


As others have quite correctly stated, though, the manpower to enforce laws already in place is often lacking.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

How many know of "working dog" breeders that cross the line into a so called puppy mill? If a person knows that certain dogs produce well and this certain breedings offspring is in high demand and began breeding repeatingly; does this have any characteristics of a puppy mill? Granited the dogs are healthy and everything that has been mentioned so far against puppy mills are ligit in this case, is it ok? Lets not fool ourselves, the ole mighty dollar is the root behind everything, so if someone is pumping out puppies because this line is the latest fad in the sport dog world, is this any different then a puppy mill......really. Simply put, just because you have working dogs and an excellent pedigree doesn't mean that you can't cross the line into the puppy mill world.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jay lyda said:


> How many know of "working dog" breeders that cross the line into a so called puppy mill? If a person knows that certain dogs produce well and this certain breedings offspring is in high demand and began breeding repeatingly; does this have any characteristics of a puppy mill? Granited the dogs are healthy and everything that has been mentioned so far against puppy mills are ligit in this case, is it ok? Lets not fool ourselves, the ole mighty dollar is the root behind everything, so if someone is pumping out puppies because this line is the latest fad in the sport dog world, is this any different then a puppy mill......really. Simply put, just because you have working dogs and an excellent pedigree doesn't mean that you can't cross the line into the puppy mill world.


Which of the listed indications would be present? (Interesting question.)


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> How many know of "working dog" breeders that cross the line into a so called puppy mill? If a person knows that certain dogs produce well and this certain breedings offspring is in high demand and began breeding repeatingly; does this have any characteristics of a puppy mill? Granited the dogs are healthy and everything that has been mentioned so far against puppy mills are ligit in this case, is it ok? Lets not fool ourselves, the ole mighty dollar is the root behind everything, so if someone is pumping out puppies because this line is the latest fad in the sport dog world, is this any different then a puppy mill......really. Simply put, just because you have working dogs and an excellent pedigree doesn't mean that you can't cross the line into the puppy mill world.


Well I think if those pups are reserved even before birth and the breeder has no worries finding appropriet homes...why not? If they have pups from the last litter still on the ground and are willing to sell to pet homes (when the dogs have no business there) we are getting into PM territory. Bottom line, if your breeding for a kind of dog that fits into one kind of home and then try to pass that dog off to "other" homes just to get rid of them and make some $, that's not cool. Don't try to pass pets off as the next big Champion and don't sell high drive dogs to granny down the road, just to get them off your property. I'm seeing allot of breeders, breeding more dogs than they can fitfully home and now they are spreading out, not targetting who they once did (sport or working home) and now willing to sellout their dogs to any buyer. Pet worthy breeders vice versa. It also tics me off to see pets stores or PM's saying this dog is show material when they don't even know pedigrees. Anybody who tries to oversell their dogs or says they are perfect for any home or environment is full of shit. Breeding for pet quality just pisses me off period!

Your right though Jay, any venue , breed or working/show breeder can and do sometimes cross the line.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Well I think if those pups are reserved even before birth....


That'd be a huge factor, wouldn't it?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> How many know of "working dog" breeders that cross the line into a so called puppy mill? If a person knows that certain dogs produce well and this certain breedings offspring is in high demand and began breeding repeatingly; does this have any characteristics of a puppy mill? Granited the dogs are healthy and everything that has been mentioned so far against puppy mills are ligit in this case, is it ok? Lets not fool ourselves, the ole mighty dollar is the root behind everything, so if someone is pumping out puppies because this line is the latest fad in the sport dog world, is this any different then a puppy mill......really. Simply put, just because you have working dogs and an excellent pedigree doesn't mean that you can't cross the line into the puppy mill world.


That's very true, I believe we all know one or two that would fit in that category.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That's very true, I believe we all know one or two that would fit in that category.


1, 2........5, 6 LOL

I think a lot of people would be OMG! if they visited several so called "working dog" kennels.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll have to agree that some working and show breeders have conditions that makes me want to change clothes when I've left their places. 
Both working and show people will say they breed for the betterment of the particular breed. 
That would never make the list even on some of the cleaner, better ran PMs. It's totally a money issue with 99% of them. 
Some may have started out with good intentions but didn't have the work ethics, money,etc to keep from becomming PMs.
Some are "collectors" that need mental health assistance. Some just need a shot in the dark!:-#


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## Russ Spencer (Jun 2, 2008)

Okay, here goes. And this is the truth!!

I do not breed any of my bitches until they have gotten their OFA certification (min 24 months old). I will not breed them if they have a FAIR. I breed them only once a year and ONLY if I feel they are in good enough condition. If they had a tough time with the last litter it might be longer, or never again. Age limits? Depends on the dog, but probably not beyond 7.

I've learned a lesson with a previous litter that the pups should never have gone to pet homes. 

I'd like to think I'm breeding for the betterment of the "working line" GSD. 

If you saw my bank statements you'd know I'm not in it for the money.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

We had our first litter and the bitch had a hard time of it it may be a long time (or never) before we use her again. The litter also didn't fair well though that was due more to environmental problems than genetics. Two pups died the first night. And even with their shots UTD we lost a male and a female around 9 weeks to Parvo. So out of a litter of 8 only 4 are left one being a runt and one buyer saying that his pups is weak in the hocks. (something that was not apparent at 9 weeks)

Both bitch and sire were cleared of everything under the sun and the bitch even has excellent hips both were used in work and show. it just seems we got the raw end of the deal on this litter being in the unlucky category.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Well I think if those pups are reserved even before birth and the breeder has no worries finding appropriet homes...why not? If they have pups from the last litter still on the ground and are willing to sell to pet homes (when the dogs have no business there) we are getting into PM territory. Bottom line, if your breeding for a kind of dog that fits into one kind of home and then try to pass that dog off to "other" homes just to get rid of them and make some $, that's not cool.
> 
> Your right though Jay, any venue , breed or working/show breeder can and do sometimes cross the line.


I agree, I've seen working dog and show "breeders" buy puppies or hoard dogs with pedigrees with "known" dogs that often that were sold in the first place because the seller knew the dog had problems. They never bother to title the parents (because the grand parents accolades speak for the offspring) breed back to back litters, often "hold back" a few prospects then offer these "stunning", "remarkable" older pups at a discount when the new pups come along. Truth is they couldn't sell them in the first place. They peddle these pups to unsuspecting newbies just because the pedigree "looks good" and don't give a rip if the dog/owner is a suitable match or the dog is not suitable for the breed ring or intended sport as long as they get their $$$.


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## James Benigno (Aug 1, 2008)

In the interest of free speech... I have the following sentiments towards anyone that is even half educated (and some who are not) that run, purchase or have anything to do with puppy mills.

....................../´¯/) 
....................,/¯../ 
.................../..../ 
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸ 
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\ 
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...') 
.........\.................'...../ 
..........''...\.......... _.·´ 
............\..............( 
..............\.............\...


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

James Benigno said:


> In the interest of free speech... I have the following sentiments towards anyone that is even half educated (and some who are not) that run, purchase or have anything to do with puppy mills.
> 
> ....................../´¯/)
> ....................,/¯../
> ...


=D>:mrgreen::-D


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

....................../´¯/) 
....................,/¯../ 
.................../..../ 
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸ 
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\ 
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...') 
.........\.................'...../ 
..........''...\.......... _.·´ 
............\..............( 
..............\.............\...

Looks like some form of agility pattern, maybe a new Schutzhund tracking pattern! Humn....:-k Motorcross??? Catapiller droppings....:-o 
Ah, Modern Art, that's the ticket!:mrgreen:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: How many know of "working dog" breeders that cross the line into a so called puppy mill? If a person knows that certain dogs produce well and this certain breedings offspring is in high demand and began breeding repeatingly; does this have any characteristics of a puppy mill? 

If anyone is producing that well let me know, I can get homes for the pups. LOL I do not see this as a puppy mill. I would prefer to see concientious breeders get a break and not have to follow all the BS "not a puppy mill" crap that people spew.


Connie, was the puppy mill in Penn run by the Amish ? ? ? ?

Quote: I do not breed any of my bitches until they have gotten their OFA certification (min 24 months old). I will not breed them if they have a FAIR. I breed them only once a year and ONLY if I feel they are in good enough condition. If they had a tough time with the last litter it might be longer, or never again. Age limits? Depends on the dog, but probably not beyond 7.

Wanted to address this briefly. This kind of thing drives me nuts, as it is a blanket statement. what if the bitch really was all that and a bag of chips, based on the sketchy data on where HD comes from, you would not breed a bitch that was fair ? ? ? ? ? ?

Maybe when they can tell how the hips went bad, ie genetic, stepped on, environment, whatever, but to take a really nice bitch out of the gene pool................ bullshit dude.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: We had our first litter and the bitch had a hard time of it it may be a long time (or never) before we use her again. The litter also didn't fair well though that was due more to environmental problems than genetics. Two pups died the first night. And even with their shots UTD we lost a male and a female around 9 weeks to Parvo. So out of a litter of 8 only 4 are left one being a runt and one buyer saying that his pups is weak in the hocks. (something that was not apparent at 9 weeks)

Both bitch and sire were cleared of everything under the sun and the bitch even has excellent hips both were used in work and show. it just seems we got the raw end of the deal on this litter being in the unlucky category.

I would never hold that against you, any of it. Rotts are filled with genetic time bombs, forget the environment. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) If you are going to try and create a good working line of Rotts, you are going to have to break a LOT of eggs, and spend a lot of money.

I really love the breed though. Just too poor to start back with that shit again, and I am not sure how up I am for culling puppies again. Turning pussy I guess.:wink:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Spin the mill.* If there are working dog breeders out there, and there are, why would they cheapen the outcome and their own K-9 "resume" with a bad product? Or use the venue of puppy milling to establish a strong breeding program? I don't care what K-9 sport you do, the dog world is still too small to have the background of a K-9 Pimp/Puppy Mill Breeder. If you get established as an aggressive breeder and the product is second rate, everyone will talk about you and your "goals." Jeff said it, "You have to break alot of eggs..."

Even the best breeders will get some junk. The big difference as I see it, they stand behind their work, honor their word, and the animals producing have offspring that can be seen in action, some place. Backyard breeders are only into it for the bling! Ask any of them the standard questions about their dogs and fear falls all over their face. Papered? "Why yeah they're potty trained." "Yeap, natural protecters!" Then ask to see the dogs doing bite work and the words are all the same..."Oh I can't take that kind of risk and show you. If the dog went after you, you would be dead meat." "I breed the best in the area, all are full blooded." Like they would sell a dog with half the amount of blood it is required to have at puppy age! :-k 

Break some eggs, break the bank, and breed only when the time is right and the outcome is something that might not be there done the road. If you like over the edge dogs and you have a market for them, great. Pet people need to know that these are the real deal and they could be getting in over their head. Most pet folks can't handle real drive centered dogs. Kinda like wearing a Harley Davidson shirt and riding a moped! RIGHT!!!!! #-o =D> :mrgreen: 

Now, where's my scooter!  Oh Fluffy, come here child...:twisted:


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## Russ Spencer (Jun 2, 2008)

Quote:
Wanted to address this briefly. This kind of thing drives me nuts, as it is a blanket statement. what if the bitch really was all that and a bag of chips, based on the sketchy data on where HD comes from, you would not breed a bitch that was fair ? ? ? ? ? ?

Maybe when they can tell how the hips went bad, ie genetic, stepped on, environment, whatever, but to take a really nice bitch out of the gene pool................ bullshit dude.[/quote]

If I ever come up with a FAIR, I'll give you a good price, "dude." Bullshit or not, it's the way I choose to run my breeding program.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you get a bitch that is all that and a bag of chips that gets fair, I will come and see if we have the same ideas of what that is for sure. (the bitch not the "fair) I played the "hip" game and am still pissed that I left a couple of dogs out of that program. Long as I don't get the weird registration, as she will be given a shot at breeding LOL

Try to get out of that box though, there are too many things that could NOT be genetic for me, that's all. I have sent x rays more than once and got different opinions on the few times I tried. Kinda weird, but c'mon, they sit around and look at those things all day. Drive me nuts, so why not them ? ? ? ? ?


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