# Marker training note



## Kayce Cover

I was searching for an old thread and ran into a lot of comments on marker training, referencing it as 'good for making training fun', 'not a tool for real work' etc. People are still somehow missing the point that marking an instant gives the dog a coordinate to pinpoint a critical event in a stream of events.

It is just a side benefit that simply giving this information can be exceptionally motivating for many animals. 

Anyone who has worked for a boss with communication issues might appreciate the relief a dog might have when finally given information to allow him to be successful before making errors.

Some examples of using markers to correct problems for others with working dogs:

Restoring work motivation for a customs dog who was not food or toy motivated so was going to be retired. Time required: one training session (not wanting your stupid toy or lousy food is not grounds for mandatory retirement and the waste of the training investment of a good working dog).

Getting 'Oust' from a Sch level III dog who refused to have it. Tool used: only a marker and timing. Time required, less than 15 minutes.

There are more, but I just got a call and have to go to work.

I hope people will start thinking communication, rather than training game, when it comes to markers. Otherwise, a lot of power is going to waste.

Best wishes,
Kayce Cover


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## Shade Whitesel

Communication is an excellent way to put it!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

That's exactly what I've termed it--a communication system between me and the dog where the dog knows unequivocally what right is. For my first dog I used it with, that alone was enough reward and motivating.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Restoring work motivation for a customs dog who was not food or toy motivated so was going to be retired.

Did you try a metal pipe ? I have never seen a dog that you have trained do anything of any difficulty. Want to try Mondio ring ??


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## CJ Neubert

My dog finds drugs and catches bad guys, she has a foundation of marker training. I go back to it to help clean up specific little things in the work. Does she still get a correction if she is giving me the puppy finger? Oh yes she does. But at least with marker training I can pinpoint exactly what she does right.


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## Kayce Cover

Hey all,

Communication is the name of the game. It's a bit sloppy to depend on a dog that is over the top drive and can't think during the learning process. 

Were you trained that way, in that state, for peak performance? There is a learning stage, an application stage and a proofing stage. Then there is testing.

Kayce, who uses metal pipes to construct cages, and information to instruct dogs


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## Brian Anderson

Markers are great for communication. But its all for naught if you DO NOT have the dogs focus. Training focus before anything else substantially reduces the learning curve for the dog and the aggravation for the trainer. Using the correct marker is as important as the process. People who ignore marker and motivational methods of training are missing the boat. FOCUS FOCUS FOCUS ...and more FOCUS...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Kayce, who uses metal pipes to construct cages, and information to instruct dogs

Obviously you missed the point. Get a dog and do one of our sports, and people will take what you do seriously. Getting precious the rescue to sit is not very impressive.


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## Derek Milliken

And don't forget that markers per se don't always need to be used in the positive sense. A "marker" is simply a conditioned reinforcer, but you could just as easily devolop the same conditioned association to either "no reward" or punishment.
Clicker trainers often like to forget that there are 4 quadrants to operant conditioning, not just one.


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## Alison Grubb

Derek Milliken said:


> And don't forget that markers per se don't always need to be used in the positive sense. A "marker" is simply a conditioned reinforcer, but you could just as easily devolop the same conditioned association to either "no reward" or punishment.
> Clicker trainers often like to forget that there are 4 quadrants to operant conditioning, not just one.


Yep, yep.
The dogs I built a foundation with marker training had both a "yes" meaning that is correct and a "nope" which essentially meant try again. Eventually, corrections took place of that "nope".


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## Derek Milliken

Here's an idea for far too many clicker trainers to consider, there are 4 quadrants in the operant conditioning model of behaviour modification. And a marker is simply a conditioned reinforcer working in one of those quadrants.
Of course, you, as a complete trainer, could also develop to same conditioned association to either "no reward" or punishment.

Maybe even clearer communication, and less of that power going to waste?


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## Kayce Cover

Alison Grubb said:


> Yep, yep.
> The dogs I built a foundation with marker training had both a "yes" meaning that is correct and a "nope" which essentially meant try again. Eventually, corrections took place of that "nope".


As do my animals of all types. It is logical to do so.


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## Kayce Cover

CJ Neubert said:


> My dog finds drugs and catches bad guys, she has a foundation of marker training. I go back to it to help clean up specific little things in the work. Does she still get a correction if she is giving me the puppy finger? Oh yes she does. But at least with marker training I can pinpoint exactly what she does right.


Right on, CJ - which is why I could correct the Sch III dog that did not correct with the fine, but traditional trainers, that had a go at him before I came on the scene. Pinpointing an instant allows the animal to at least know the moment that was critical. The target shows him the pinpoint in space. Again - logical.


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## Kayce Cover

I'm wondering what kinds of markers folks are using, and if you have more than one, or more than one type.


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## Kayce Cover

Derek Milliken said:


> Here's an idea for far too many clicker trainers to consider, there are 4 quadrants in the operant conditioning model of behaviour modification. And a marker is simply a conditioned reinforcer working in one of those quadrants.
> Of course, you, as a complete trainer, could also develop to same conditioned association to either "no reward" or punishment.
> 
> Maybe even clearer communication, and less of that power going to waste?


Agreed! By the way, I use the term 'diminsher' rather than 'punisher'. "Punish" is an illogical inconsistency and carries lots of emotional baggage because common usage is different than the technical. Technicallly, ANYTHING that decreases the behavior it immediately follows is a punisher - that is, it diminishes the behavior. And, this word doesn't freak out lay people.


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## Kayce Cover

Brian Anderson said:


> Markers are great for communication. But its all for naught if you DO NOT have the dogs focus. Training focus before anything else substantially reduces the learning curve for the dog and the aggravation for the trainer. Using the correct marker is as important as the process. People who ignore marker and motivational methods of training are missing the boat. FOCUS FOCUS FOCUS ...and more FOCUS...


True enough. Focus is critical... and often built through good leadership, as well as through good information.


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## Howard Gaines III

Kayce Cover said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Communication is the name of the game. It's a bit sloppy to depend on a dog that is over the top drive and can't think during the learning process.
> 
> Were you trained that way, in that state, for peak performance? There is a learning stage, an application stage and a proofing stage. Then there is testing.
> 
> Kayce, who uses metal pipes to construct cages, and information to instruct dogs


 Kayce the other aspect to communicating is the tone and HOW it is delivered. Nobody wants to work for a DI and be yelled at 24/7/365! Sometimes guys need to put away the *man pants* and find the caring ones. 

If I'm too rough with my voice, it shows in the dog's expression..."What did I do pop?" The higher the pitch with the marker, it seems the faster the dog is to WANT to please. Being old school, I was NOT a verbal marker fan. We are today!


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## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> Kayce the other aspect to communicating is the tone and HOW it is delivered. Nobody wants to work for a DI and be yelled at 24/7/365! Sometimes guys need to put away the *man pants* and find the caring ones.
> 
> If I'm too rough with my voice, it shows in the dog's expression..."What did I do pop?" The higher the pitch with the marker, it seems the faster the dog is to WANT to please. Being old school, I was NOT a verbal marker fan. We are today!


Well, I think I'd use "upbeat" more than "caring," but maybe it's all the same. Even a negative marker works best for me if it's a completely calm "nope" (easier for me to say the way I want to than "no," which is for a far different and far less frequent scenario than a training session).


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## Connie Sutherland

Kayce Cover said:


> I'm wondering what kinds of markers folks are using, and if you have more than one, or more than one type.


Still lazy, still using mostly "yes" and "nope" and a "good" I.B., more likely to use a ball-point pen clicker when working with someone else's dog. 

I did prove to myself my better efficiency with the nonverbal marker in teaching a new behavior, though. (Even though I don't usually use it with my own dogs.)

Haven't seen any problems with using both.


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## Bob Scott

Yes and Nope and (IB) gooood here also.
Both of my dogs are very responsive to markers but one is way to excitable with the IB unless it's VERY calm, quiet and no physical praise. Any excitement in my voice or the slightest pat on the side sets him off to party land.
The one place he's best with the IB is feeding time. He's a spinner and goes crazy with it when I feed the two of them. Even to the point of slamming into things, the other dog included. He responds to a simple "Quit" and holds still while I set the other dog's food down then his if I give the goooooood very calmly. It's his focus on the food that keeps him calm as much as anything else.
I have found that, for me, I seem to get quicker results with a beginner using the clicker and then transferring it to a verbal marker once the process is fully understood.


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## Kayce Cover

Howard Gaines III said:


> Kayce the other aspect to communicating is the tone and HOW it is delivered. Nobody wants to work for a DI and be yelled at 24/7/365! Sometimes guys need to put away the *man pants* and find the caring ones.
> 
> If I'm too rough with my voice, it shows in the dog's expression..."What did I do pop?" The higher the pitch with the marker, it seems the faster the dog is to WANT to please. Being old school, I was NOT a verbal marker fan. We are today!



Hey Howard,

We are also finding that higher pitch often increases motivation - although as Bob mentions, some dogs get just too excited.

I respect that you put this tool to test, and I am interested that you found it useful.

Best,
Kayce


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## Kayce Cover

Bob Scott said:


> Yes and Nope and (IB) gooood here also.
> Both of my dogs are very responsive to markers but one is way to excitable with the IB unless it's VERY calm, quiet and no physical praise. ...
> I have found that, for me, I seem to get quicker results with a beginner using the clicker and then transferring it to a verbal marker once the process is fully understood.


Glad to hear your experiences, Bob. I note that you and Connie are using continuous bridges. I look forward to seeing those in action one of these days. You may recall that I generally use an articulated bridge.

I also find your observation of starting with a clicker and then transferring to a verbal bridge to be interesting. Would love to see the two options in practice.

I start and stay with verbal bridges, and believe it generally to be faster than clicker training, but would love to explore the nuances with working dog trainers more in the future.

Thanks for your response,
Kayce


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## Kayce Cover

Connie Sutherland said:


> Still lazy, still using mostly "yes" and "nope" and a "good" I.B., more likely to use a ball-point pen clicker when working with someone else's dog.
> 
> I did prove to myself my better efficiency with the nonverbal marker in teaching a new behavior, though. (Even though I don't usually use it with my own dogs.)
> 
> Haven't seen any problems with using both.


So Connie, are you drawing out the 'good' to extend the duration of a behavior? It sounds like a continuous sound and not a gu gu gu gu good, in your case? And, are you saying you believe a mechanical sound to be more efficient than a verbal sound? 

I am wondering why you and Bob are finding this. I can normally cut time off a clicker training time average - 25-75 %. So, I look forward to learning more and thanks for responding.

Best wishes,
Kayce


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## Kayce Cover

Here is a sample of an articulated IB: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E3lx5IHbh0

As Howard noted, tone and inflection is important to optimize. This particular video was made to time the frequency of the bridging. It is almost 8 counts a second - which is approximately alpha wave frequency. 

I travel tomorrow for a bit and will check back when I can.


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## Joby Becker

"An Introduction to Bridge and Target Techniques"

Kayce, do you know anywhere I can get this manual, without having to sell my dog? I am interested in learning about your techniques...

Are there more books than the first volume?


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## Joby Becker

Nevermind I did find the website, the only other one I found was on Amazon for over 200 bucks LOL...
is there only the first volume? the introduction?

Is the "train like a pro" manual the same as the Introduction to B and T?


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## Connie Sutherland

Kayce Cover said:


> So Connie, are you drawing out the 'good' to extend the duration of a behavior? It sounds like a continuous sound and not a gu gu gu gu good, in your case? And, are you saying you believe a mechanical sound to be more efficient than a verbal sound?
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> Kayce


No, not usually even repeated rapidly, unless it's an active moving behavior. And while I have tried the short stutter for an I.B., I ended up with the short whole word, goodgoodgood for an action behavior and a regular conversational good with pauses between for something stationary like teaching (adding duration to) a down.

But as Bob mentioned, even among my own dogs, the IB's use varies hugely. 

And yes, I found the mechanical marker to be much more efficient (faster) in the way Bob described: as the first method with a brand-new behavior. Still, I then segue to verbal.


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## Bob Scott

The gu gu gu gu was to confusing/hard for me to think about. Sounds crazy I know but I never could use it comfortably.
I think the clicker for initial training is more consistent. Humans can add to many different inflections to their own voice. The transfer to all verbal goes super easy for my dogs. Once or twice and the dogs have it. 
In the Schutzhund courage test I also used "yes" to give the dog the bite command. I think I could have grunted and got the same results because they would be looking for ANY cue to go.
Other then starting out some one else's pup/dog, I'm all voice with my two dogs now but they will still respond equally with a clicker.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

In the herding context, the constancy of the gu-gu-gu-gu would be distracting for the dog and the handler. Like Bob, I have a "good" for the duration part. The IB/TB has worked really well as a communication tool.

T


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## Shawn Reed

Kayce Cover said:


> Hey Howard,
> 
> We are also finding that higher pitch often increases motivation - although as Bob mentions, some dogs get just too excited.
> 
> I respect that you put this tool to test, and I am interested that you found it useful.
> 
> Best,
> Kayce


All of this talk about changing the pitch of your voice totally depends on the dog. Some it may make too excited, some it may be perfect and then if your dealing with a fearful dog it could send the dog for the next county. Granted I know most people here don't deal with fearful dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland

Shawn Reed said:


> *All of this talk about changing the pitch of your voice totally depends on the dog*. Some it may make too excited, some it may be perfect and then if your dealing with a fearful dog it could send the dog for the next county. *Granted I know most people here don't deal with fearful dogs.*


I do, fairly often. And I agree 100%. 

But you're right; most people on this board are not dealing with fearful dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Interesting that a loaded marker can strike fear in the dog. There was a question on one of the herding forums regarding a BC that was fearful of the sound of a clicker. But as far as the human voice is concerned, it makes you think there is a relationship problem or handler/dog conflict so great that marker training is impeded. If you have a rescue, then you have to adopt the tone that is the most effective. But I guess that's true with any of them. My IB has to be low key to not interrupt the communication flow between my dog and the stock. 

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Interesting that a loaded marker can strike fear in the dog.


Oh, no, I didn't mean that at all. 

A _loaded_ marker -- no.

I meant that the sound _when starting the loading (or charging) process _can be scary to a fearful dog. Same with a new marker (which you could call a very changed voice, with a very fearful dog).

If I'm working with a fearful dog, then I'm very unlikely to suddenly change the marker from the charged or loaded one to any other one (including a new voice pitch).

I can't imagine any situation where a charged marker (a marker that I know is charged, for the individual dog) will trigger fear in that dog.



eta

And again, this is probably pretty O.T. on a board like this one, where training threads are not usually about fearful dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Interesting that a loaded marker can strike fear in the dog. There was a question on one of the herding forums regarding a BC that was fearful of the sound of a clicker. ....
> Terrasita


I might desensitize such a dog to the clicker sound, in this case, apart from (prior to) the loading process, but would be more likely to use a ballpoint pen or some other softer click (maybe an empty mini-stapler).


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## Terrasita Cuffie

We talked about that on the herding list. I suggested just using a soothing voice tone. Actually the premise was, since the clicker scared the dog, you couldn't marker train him---NOT.

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> We talked about that on the herding list. I suggested just using a soothing voice tone. Actually the premise was, since the clicker scared the dog, you couldn't marker train him---NOT.
> 
> T


if a clicker scares a dog.....that has to be one crappy dog.....why???? just wondering....I guess maybe it was not the super crappy genetics, it could be someone that had the dog, messed it up that bad...but I doubt it..

I work with pet dogs sometimes, but that is beyond my tolerance for crappiness..scared of a clicker...there are plenty of better dogs waiting to be saved...


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## Shawn Reed

Joby Becker said:


> if a clicker scares a dog.....that has to be one crappy dog.....why???? just wondering....I guess maybe it was not the super crappy genetics, it could be someone that had the dog, messed it up that bad...but I doubt it..
> 
> I work with pet dogs sometimes, but that is beyond my tolerance for crappiness..scared of a clicker...there are plenty of better dogs waiting to be saved...


I work with a rescue and get A LOT OF CLIENTS from them. High drive dogs for me are a pleasure to work with b/c they are so into it!! Joby, it is what it is, the majority of the country isn't buying highend dogs, that are bred to the standards you expect. For example, I am training a Great Pyranese that was on a chain in the backyard for the first year of his life. Completely hand shy, very fearful, but he is making progress. 

This is my regular day! When I get a chance to work with a high drive dog it's actually a breath of fresh air! There is a big difference between a "pet dog" and an "under socialized dog"IMHO...............

So I guess what your saying is that you don't take the hard dogs to train? That's what you said.................


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well, that aside. . .You play the cards you're dealt. Its not unusual for BCs to be very people wary and sound sensitive. 

Terrasita


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## Alison Grubb

Shawn Reed said:


> I work with a rescue and get A LOT OF CLIENTS from them. High drive dogs for me are a pleasure to work with b/c they are so into it!! Joby, it is what it is, the majority of the country isn't buying highend dogs, that are bred to the standards you expect. For example, *I am training a Great Pyranese that was on a chain in the backyard for the first year of his life. Completely hand shy, very fearful, but he is making progress. *
> 
> This is my regular day! When I get a chance to work with a high drive dog it's actually a breath of fresh air! There is a big difference between a "pet dog" and an "under socialized dog"IMHO...............
> 
> So I guess what your saying is that you don't take the hard dogs to train? That's what you said.................


I get what you are saying about the standards that people here have vs. the standards of regular pet people. I have been SHOCKED by what people accept as being normal for dogs. But it is what it is. I don't actually care that much.

But (and this is off topic...something new for this forum, eh?)...my guess is that the GP would be that way whether or not he was on a chain. I have a Pit Bull mix who lived on a chain for the first year or so of his life and he most definitely does not fit the description you have shared of the GP. I have also seen dogs socialized out the wazoo who are still crap. Oh, the power of genetics.


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## Joby Becker

Shawn Reed said:


> I work with a rescue and get A LOT OF CLIENTS from them. High drive dogs for me are a pleasure to work with b/c they are so into it!! Joby, it is what it is, the majority of the country isn't buying highend dogs, that are bred to the standards you expect. For example, I am training a Great Pyranese that was on a chain in the backyard for the first year of his life. Completely hand shy, very fearful, but he is making progress.
> 
> This is my regular day! When I get a chance to work with a high drive dog it's actually a breath of fresh air! There is a big difference between a "pet dog" and an "under socialized dog"IMHO...............
> 
> So I guess what your saying is that you don't take the hard dogs to train? That's what you said.................


High end dogs are a different subject from dogs that should never have been born...there is middle ground, normal dogs...those are the ones that I feel should get the effort..

High drive has absolutely nothing to do with lack of confidence, nerve, etc...

I am no touchy feely about dogs, I like dogs, but am not a bleeding heart. There are probably 100 dogs that should not have been born, for every 1 that is normal, and got screwed from poor upbringing...

a pet dog is a normal dog, most dogs in shelters are born with thier problems, which is why they are so bad. a normal dog raised by normal people, should not have all those problems...even if they are just normal idiots and not dog geniuses...

a dog that is hand shy and scared, or afraid of a clicker is a sad thing, but that is not from his upbringing, it is from poor breeding...I see tons of dogs flinch when a hand is raised, or dogs that fear hats, or tall people, that have never been hit or beaten, and have been raised normally...that is poor breeding, which is far from HIGH END..a dog should be normal, does not have to be HIGH END..

Drive has nothing to do with it...


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## Bob Scott

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, that aside. . .You play the cards you're dealt. Its not unusual for BCs to be very people wary and sound sensitive.
> 
> Terrasita


From the study that was done at Purina a yr or two ago it sounded like there are a lot of BCs with sound issues. Storm noises being primary.


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## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> I do, fairly often. And I agree 100%.
> 
> But you're right; most people on this board are not dealing with fearful dogs.




:-k Aren't they the ones used to make hot dogs? :grin: :wink:


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## Joby Becker

Shawn Reed said:


> I work with a rescue and get A LOT OF CLIENTS from them. High drive dogs for me are a pleasure to work with b/c they are so into it!! Joby, it is what it is, the majority of the country isn't buying highend dogs, that are bred to the standards you expect. For example, I am training a Great Pyranese that was on a chain in the backyard for the first year of his life. Completely hand shy, very fearful, but he is making progress.
> 
> This is my regular day! When I get a chance to work with a high drive dog it's actually a breath of fresh air! There is a big difference between a "pet dog" and an "under socialized dog"IMHO...............
> 
> So I guess what your saying is that you don't take the hard dogs to train? That's what you said.................


As far as clients go, if I am training a dog of course I work with whatever is in front of me, I am currently "crate" training a year old dog that shits in the crate because the owners gave him a XXL and think they can trot off to work and be out and about for 10-14 hours at a time, and he is also nervy shy unconfident dog as well...I work with the dog in my home, and am trying to get through to the owners, but I do not like that dog or the owners...LOL...they need to be home more, and they need a smaller crate, but of course they feel bad about a smaller crate, cause the dog spends too much time in it, so they got a huge one, that the dog can crap in without even soiling himself....

My point was from a dog owner perspective, not a trainer's perspective.....there are plenty of normal dogs that need to be saved, for every basketcase dog that is saved, there is a decent dog waiting to be put down in a shelter..emotions muddy logic sometimes....no dog is perfect I know....but there is a line that I feel should be adhered to, just my opinion....


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## Howard Gaines III

Kayce Cover said:


> Hey Howard,
> 
> We are also finding that higher pitch often increases motivation - although as Bob mentions, some dogs get just too excited.
> 
> I respect that you put this tool to test, and I am interested that you found it useful.
> 
> Best,
> Kayce


 Like all tools, a good collection is priceless! Now, where are those thong drawers that get my voice up!!=;


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## Howard Gaines III

All the more reason to use verbal markers and not "crickets." And when it breaks or you forget it, how's that marking going to work? :-k


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## ann schnerre

kayce, there are a couple of reasons i personally use the "goood" vs "gu gu gu gu" IB. 1) a "gooood" tends to soothe a high drive dog to start using his brain again and 2) i can't do the "gu gu gu" IB with any consistency. plus, i don't want to experiment on my high drive dog with "gu gu gu" when "goood" works.

if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?


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## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> All the more reason to use verbal markers and not "crickets." And when it breaks or you forget it, how's that marking going to work? :-k



I have no problem using both with the same dog. Had to load them both, of course.

I think lots of people use both.


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## Connie Sutherland

PS

Howard, have you tried a "cricket"? I did not expect that I would see the same increased efficiency in teaching a new behavior that I had read about in some study that Pryor linked on her site, and in fact went into it with a kind of "yeah, right" attitude. I have to admit that the study was right, at least for me, when it suggested that the mechanical sound was faster for a brand new behavior.

Again, I do tend to use the verbal marker with my dogs and often even with other people's dogs. I just like it. But that mechanical tool is handy and indeed efficient.


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## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> PS
> 
> Howard, have you tried a "cricket"? I did not expect that I would see the same increased efficiency in teaching a new behavior that I had read about in some study that Pryor linked on her site, and in fact went into it with a kind of "yeah, right" attitude. I have to admit that the study was right, at least for me, when it suggested that the mechanical sound was faster for a brand new behavior.
> 
> Again, I do tend to use the verbal marker with my dogs and often even with other people's dogs. I just like it. But that mechanical tool is handy and indeed efficient.



Ditto and Ditto! 
I will also say that the transition from clicker to voice has never been a problem for any of my dogs or any other dogs I've worked with.
last yr my brother got his Presa when it was three yrs old. The dog had a bit of ob but nothing formal. I helped my brother get started with a clicker. He hated the thing (to much of a sissy toy he said).
After a couple of weeks with the clicker he just stopped it and changed over to voice. The dog didn't miss a beat.


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## Kayce Cover

Joby Becker said:


> Nevermind I did find the website, the only other one I found was on Amazon for over 200 bucks LOL...
> is there only the first volume? the introduction?
> 
> Is the "train like a pro" manual the same as the Introduction to B and T?


Wow! I never put them on Amazon, so someone is selling a used copy. i'll sell my personal used copy complete with editing notes for less than that! ;> Email me at [email protected] and I have them all available via internet now (downloads) and it is fast and easy and less than $50 for all three that are currently available.

$200. Funny.


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## Kayce Cover

Connie Sutherland said:


> No, not usually even repeated rapidly, unless it's an active moving behavior. And while I have tried the short stutter for an I.B., I ended up with the short whole word, goodgoodgood for an action behavior and a regular conversational good with pauses between for something stationary like teaching (adding duration to) a down.
> 
> But as Bob mentioned, even among my own dogs, the IB's use varies hugely.
> 
> And yes, I found the mechanical marker to be much more efficient (faster) in the way Bob described: as the first method with a brand-new behavior. Still, I then segue to verbal.


Thanks for the feedback. I would love to see this in action and get a chance to compare. Maybe you can let me know if you are coming to Virginia to compete or something. Or, if you get video up.

Thanks!


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## Kayce Cover

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> In the herding context, the constancy of the gu-gu-gu-gu would be distracting for the dog and the handler. Like Bob, I have a "good" for the duration part. The IB/TB has worked really well as a communication tool.
> 
> T


Great to hear! Please let me know if you have video posted. Thanks!


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## Kayce Cover

Shawn Reed said:


> All of this talk about changing the pitch of your voice totally depends on the dog. Some it may make too excited, some it may be perfect and then if your dealing with a fearful dog it could send the dog for the next county. Granted I know most people here don't deal with fearful dogs.


I agree Shawn. The only dogs I have had difficulty starting on an IB are border collies. They soon adjusted. We helped them by modulating the pitch and intensity of the bridges. Also, one can use visual or tactile bridges.


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## Kayce Cover

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Interesting that a loaded marker can strike fear in the dog. There was a question on one of the herding forums regarding a BC that was fearful of the sound of a clicker. But as far as the human voice is concerned, it makes you think there is a relationship problem or handler/dog conflict so great that marker training is impeded. If you have a rescue, then you have to adopt the tone that is the most effective. But I guess that's true with any of them. My IB has to be low key to not interrupt the communication flow between my dog and the stock.
> 
> Terrasita


It appears to me that many border collies are acutely perceptive of stimuli, and get thrown off by strong stimuli. They often adjust anyway, but it is easy enough to accommodate them with modulation of the bridge. Another reason to go verbal.


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## Kayce Cover

Howard Gaines III said:


> Like all tools, a good collection is priceless! Now, where are those thong drawers that get my voice up!!=;


Another priceless tool? :-k


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## Kayce Cover

Connie Sutherland said:


> PS
> 
> ... I have to admit that the study was right, at least for me, when it suggested that the mechanical sound was faster for a brand new behavior.
> 
> Again, I do tend to use the verbal marker with my dogs and often even with other people's dogs. I just like it. But that mechanical tool is handy and indeed efficient.


For the record, I don't find that a mechanical bridge is faster, even from the very beginning. In fact, I get a lot of feedback from (ex)clicker trainers that they cannot believe how much faster this is. I don't know what your expectations are for training a particular task - or in other words, what is fast, from your perspective. I do know that from the beginning, when Pryor was publishing that she could target train an animal in as little as 6 weeks, we were doing target training in less than 5 minutes - and publishing the same. I do not use luring.

Do you have any video up of starting a behavior?


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## Kayce Cover

ann schnerre said:


> kayce, there are a couple of reasons i personally use the "goood" vs "gu gu gu gu" IB. 1) a "gooood" tends to soothe a high drive dog to start using his brain again and 2) i can't do the "gu gu gu" IB with any consistency. plus, i don't want to experiment on my high drive dog with "gu gu gu" when "goood" works.
> 
> if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?


Hey Ann,

Good for you for testing these tools for your use. I can think of reasons to be sure my dog was comfortable and cognizant of both, but I think that will come up later. I can see the need for some video showing some examples. But, I am already swamped, so...


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## Kayce Cover

I'm on travel in Florida, hence a bit of delay in responding. I'll check back and happy training in the meantime.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Kayce Cover said:


> For the record, I don't find that a mechanical bridge is faster, even from the very beginning. In fact, I get a lot of feedback from (ex)clicker trainers that they cannot believe how much faster this is. I don't know what your expectations are for training a particular task - or in other words, what is fast, from your perspective. I do know that from the beginning, when Pryor was publishing that she could target train an animal in as little as 6 weeks, we were doing target training in less than 5 minutes - and publishing the same. I do not use luring.
> 
> Do you have any video up of starting a behavior?


 
I don't know that one is faster than the other. But there are times when I have thought the clicker slightly more effective especially where the dog is hyperfocused on something else--in my case livestock. I think there is something to the sharpness/preciseness of the sound judging by my dog's reaction. And nooooooo, we don't have anything even remotely sound sensitive here--even the rescue BC isn't. This is just something I've noticed working with both types of markers. I don't know what took 6 weeks and what kind of animal it was but just to touch a target took less than 5 minutes and with a clicker.

Terrasita


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## Matthew Grubb

I've trained three patrol/narc dogs so far using markers and pp methods. Makes toy delivery in scent work fool proof.


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## Howard Gaines III

Connie Sutherland said:


> PS
> 
> Howard, have you tried a "cricket"? I did not expect that I would see the same increased efficiency in teaching a new behavior that I had read about in some study that Pryor linked on her site, and in fact went into it with a kind of "yeah, right" attitude. I have to admit that the study was right, at least for me, when it suggested that the mechanical sound was faster for a brand new behavior.
> 
> Again, I do tend to use the verbal marker with my dogs and often even with other people's dogs. I just like it. But that mechanical tool is handy and indeed efficient.


Connie I have one and the rust has set in...it's another thing in your hand to have to "deal" with. Leash/dog...treats...clicker...cold one...too many things at one time! 

My voice is the one thing that broke early! The voice is also easy to adjust for dogs that have issues to rough tones. The reason I tell folks to use the recall "here" rather than "come." You can tone the "here" to many levels and I have pulled dogs in...enough of the bar talk!=; If a puppy or young dog has had a bad exposure to someone's voice, I can see the mechanical tool useful.


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## Kayce Cover

Howard Gaines III said:


> Connie I have one and the rust has set in...it's another thing in your hand to have to "deal" with. Leash/dog...treats...clicker...cold one...too many things at one time!
> 
> My voice is the one thing that broke early! The voice is also easy to adjust for dogs that have issues to rough tones. The reason I tell folks to use the recall "here" rather than "come." You can tone the "here" to many levels and I have pulled dogs in...enough of the bar talk!=; If a puppy or young dog has had a bad exposure to someone's voice, I can see the mechanical tool useful.


Absolutely right on, Howard. This is a critical point. When working with animals, one often has to spring into action, with hands already full, or while in the middle of doing something else... Voice is more accessible, easier to administer AND can be modulated.

Whilst some claim that a consistent tone is advantageous, I don't find it so. I can be very consistent with my voice, but I am not limited.

Communication occurs in layers. In human communication, only 10-13% of meaning is carried through words. The rest is body language, gestures, tone, timing, inflexion... If you are not skilled in being conscious of your output in these different layers, then you are better off limiting your output to the layers you can remain conscious of, as you use them. However, as you gain skill and experience, you will be able to align layers or differentiate them as you desire.

For an example in human interaction, consider the comedian, Steve Martin, who made a career out of the two words, "Excuse me", delivered in various ways. Depending on how he delivered them, we clearly knew whether he really meant, 'please excuse my interruption' or 'I take offense' or 'get out of my way' or 'you're an idiot' or one of myriad other things he communicated with the same words but different context and delivery. This is such a common process that many cultures have words that serve these complex roles: 'Sumi maasen' in Japanese, and 'Aloha', in Hawaiian, are two.

Dogs are more similar than different in these abilities to read and differentiate complex communication from people.

I recently spoke at a symposium with Irene Pepperberg, of Alex fame, and she has rigorously demonstrated that Alex had the numerical abilities of a six-year-old child, or greater! He could subitize (know a number of collected objects at a glance, without counting), count, recognize additions and subtractions, without seeing the items added or subtracted. This is a bird with a brain the size of a walnut and no frontal lobe. Think a dog is capable of more or less?

Best wishes,
Kayce, just in from Florida, having survived the alligators, and more to the point, the armadillos!


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## Kayce Cover

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't know that one is faster than the other. But there are times when I have thought the clicker slightly more effective especially where the dog is hyperfocused on something else--in my case livestock. I think there is something to the sharpness/preciseness of the sound judging by my dog's reaction. And nooooooo, we don't have anything even remotely sound sensitive here--even the rescue BC isn't. This is just something I've noticed working with both types of markers. I don't know what took 6 weeks and what kind of animal it was but just to touch a target took less than 5 minutes and with a clicker.
> 
> Terrasita


Most importantly, whether you use an adjunct mechanical prop, or your innate voice, you are giving the dog more information - information that is critical for his overall success, and for optimizing his learning rate. If you are happy, life is good.

Now me... I can't leave well-enough alone. I want mastery. I want superiority. I want world domination. Mwahahahaha! ... Now... where was I. Yes. By managing the nuances of the bridges, I can get better results than I can with a mechanical stimulus AND I get added value. I can encourage, discourage, anchor and more, AS I IB. But, it takes something to learn to do all this and make it work for you, and not everyone is into mastery and domination... 

It may be that the sharpness is helpful in some situations. As for precision, I don't see how it can be more precise. The clicker makes a compound sound - with two parts - click-click. There are two 'edges' to the sound. Which marks the instant? Is the dog really aware of which? The length of the two-part sound is longer than a good verbal Intermediate Bridge.

But the sharpness may be superior. To lessen the gap when going verbal, make sure your voice has an edge to it. When speaking normally, a softer voice is more pleasant to listen to. When drawing attention to something, a hard edge with a sharp tone will draw attention.

So, we can use modulation to make the voice sharper, which is the possible advantage of the clicker.

From this possible concession, it is all onward and upward. I don't have to buy my tool, I can't break or lose it. I don't need a hand to use it. I can modulate to encourage, discourage, anchor, tease, excite or subdue the dog - IF I have the skill to do these things.

It is the same as when speaking to people. One speaker will deliver a speech, expertly written but boring to receive. Another will skillfully modulate timing, inflexion, body language and more, and give the same speech in a way that is rivetting. Look at the difference in watching various actors in the same part. Delivery makes a difference! In short, don't overestimate the value of a 'consistent' sound. It only needs to be consistent enough to be recognized by the animal and they are VERY good at intrpreting context and other variables.

By the way, at the same symposium where I spoke with Irene Pepperberg, Jan van Hoof, and Jane Goodall , there were 500 people in the audience and the technical part of my presentation totally failed. It must be a karmic thing because I put a lot of work into my video and presentation, and had so many backups I almost had to drive the car onto the stage to offload - and then nothing- NOTHING- worked. And all the techs and organizers gathered round and I lost the audience. This happened 5 times, and finally I said to the audience full of animal professionals, "Well friends, this is real life. It is you and me and let's have some fun". We had an uproariously great time, with nothing but our mutual communication. This in turn drew t hem to come look at websites and additional information later.

So, if we can engage the mind of the animal, they will go the extra mile to meet our challenges. And if we can do this without external gadgets, then we are actually showing mastery of our art, which will inevitably appeal to some of the hot dogs on this list.


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## Kayce Cover

Matthew Grubb said:


> I've trained three patrol/narc dogs so far using markers and pp methods. Makes toy delivery in scent work fool proof.


Did it make it a lot faster as well? Did it eliminate confusion in defining which scent was the target?

By the way, great work. Power on!


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## Kayce Cover

*Chat, anyone?*

If anyone here is interested in chatting about training, send your phone number, or better yet, your skype id, to me at [email protected]

No charge, just a chance to really talk.

I'll do one tomorrow evening at 8 pm eastern time, and anyone who likes can be there. You can talk, or you can listen, or both. I can demonstrate modulating the bridge. If you are on skype, we can share video and files as we talk - actually watch the video together. If not on skype, you can join my forum (http://www.synalia.com/phpBB3/index.php - must register with real first and last name) and we can watch video there, or on this forum, together, and discuss it, if you can use the computer while you talk on the phone. 

Best option, be on skype (skype.com) and then add me as a contact (kaycecover). I will make a group of wdf folks, and we can chat together. 

If you send your number or skype contact to be included, just be at your phone/computer, at 8 pm. I send more information in a bit.


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## ann schnerre

*Re: Chat, anyone?*

kayce--8 p.m., but what time zone?


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## Joby Becker

Kayce...

I just read "An Introduction to Bridge and Target Technique" last night.
It was a very good read and was very informative on the method.

In the manual there a several topics that are brought up which are not elucidated, and several references made about Volume II in the text.

Was there a Volume II written? 

I tried some of the techniques on my dog including your IB word/technique, and my Girlfriend actually asked me why I was telling my dog to have sex with me ...](*,)](*,)](*,)
LOL that was pretty funny...
If a dog was started using good and YES, would you recommend sticking with that or would you move to the x and X.

Thank you.
Joby


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## Kayce Cover

*Re: Chat, anyone?*



ann schnerre said:


> kayce--8 p.m., but what time zone?


My bad!

Eastern US time, 5 hours later than UK and 7 later than western Europe.

Can you be there?


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## Kayce Cover

Joby Becker said:


> Kayce...
> 
> I just read "An Introduction to Bridge and Target Technique" last night.
> It was a very good read and was very informative on the method.
> 
> In the manual there a several topics that are brought up which are not elucidated, and several references made about Volume II in the text.
> 
> Was there a Volume II written?
> 
> I tried some of the techniques on my dog including your IB word/technique, and my Girlfriend actually asked me why I was telling my dog to have sex with me ...](*,)](*,)](*,)
> LOL that was pretty funny...
> If a dog was started using good and YES, would you recommend sticking with that or would you move to the x and X.
> 
> Thank you.
> Joby


Hey Joby,

Thanks for the feedback!

I hear your pain on the use of xxxxX. If you get past the sticky point, so to speak, that is, you get to a percussive sound, and no longer sound like you are obsessed with sex. But I was also there once, and it was a time when I was calling my trained chickens home, and my neighbor looked at me with horror, exclaiming: "Don't tell me that's how you motivate them!" So, now we recommend guguguguguGOOD! as a starting point, but any hard consonant sound will do.

You are good to go, using gugugugu Yes, but I don't recommend yesyesyesYes. And, I still prefer guguguguGU or guguguGood. Even putting the 'd' on 'good' can make it too slow in fast action. When you get into really fast action, it can make a real difference, and protection work involves just that kind of action. 

The material for the second manual is in pieces already published, and I am working on that manual. In the meantime, we have worked on making the manual you read more accessible, and there is a primer, called 'ggggGood Dog! Easy steps for polite pets' which is not anything about working dog task work, but leads people painlessly through using more information and logic in training, leading to proficiency in critical skills for daily living.

There is also a new manual, a companion to the presentation I did at the Animal Intelligence, Behavior and Welfare symposium, "TALK to me! A communication guide for people who live and work with animals."

PM or email me at [email protected] for details.

AND I hope you can join the chat and we can talk about whatever interested you that was not covered in the first manual. I am happy to hear you enjoyed it!

Best wishes,
Kayce


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## Joby Becker

Thank you for the info. will try to make the Skype...
I think this method will be good for many things, once the implementation is there..


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## Gillian Schuler

Terrasita said "don't know that one is faster than the other. But there are times when I have thought the clicker slightly more effective especially where the dog is hyperfocused on something else--"

I don't use the clicker as a marker but what Terrasita said, I can confirm. The older GSD has a habit of sitting at the lounge window (when he can) overseeing our tiny village and barking (especially) at the dog walkers.

If I'm in the kitchen or bathroom at the time and irritably shout out "shut up you stupid..." the barking doesn't stop - I realise this if I'm cooking or otherwise occupied, he checks I'm "machtlos", i.e. I cannot punish him. However, as I wear "Birkenstock sandals" in the house, it's easy for me, whatever I'm doing, to raise my foot and let the sandal fly. This stops the tirade. And always does! You'd think he'd be immune to the sound of it hitting some wall or other, but he's not. I admit I once caught him neatly on the head with it but this can't be the reason.

I guess our voice is not slower than the clicker but the dog hears it the whole day long and becomes immune to it.

My mother always adressed me as "Gill" but ye God's, when she called out "Gillian" I knew she'd found the cigarette ends under the mattress or similar!!!


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## Kayce Cover

Gillian Schuler said:


> Terrasita said "don't know that one is faster than the other. But there are times when I have thought the clicker slightly more effective especially where the dog is hyperfocused on something else--"
> 
> I don't use the clicker as a marker but what Terrasita said, I can confirm. The older GSD has a habit of sitting at the lounge window (when he can) overseeing our tiny village and barking (especially) at the dog walkers.
> 
> If I'm in the kitchen or bathroom at the time and irritably shout out "shut up you stupid..." the barking doesn't stop - I realise this if I'm cooking or otherwise occupied, he checks I'm "machtlos", i.e. I cannot punish him. However, as I wear "Birkenstock sandals" in the house, it's easy for me, whatever I'm doing, to raise my foot and let the sandal fly. This stops the tirade. And always does! You'd think he'd be immune to the sound of it hitting some wall or other, but he's not. I admit I once caught him neatly on the head with it but this can't be the reason.
> 
> I guess our voice is not slower than the clicker but the dog hears it the whole day long and becomes immune to it.
> 
> My mother always adressed me as "Gill" but ye God's, when she called out "Gillian" I knew she'd found the cigarette ends under the mattress or similar!!!


You've hit the nail on the head. It is not that the sound is superior, it is the meaning that the sound has for the dog. AND, it needs to cut through distraction. This can all be done with verbal markers, but may take a bit more technique than making a simple click. But, once you have the technique down, you are never without your tools - unless you lose your voice, and that is entirely too careless of you! (ala 'Importance of Being Earnest...'\\/) It brings to mind some points being made on Howard's thread on what if you did not have markers.


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## tracey schneider

Kayce,
Glad to see you on here... I just shared your site on another board less than a month ago and have been on the "group" for years although its been very slow. Either way... I have a question about the sounds... what is the theory on the ggggggggggood? why not just a short good possibly repeated with a final GOOD or a goooooooooooooD.... or does it not matter as its the communication itself that makes the difference? just curious and maybe I missed it.

t


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## Matthew Grubb

Kayce Cover said:


> Did it make it a lot faster as well? Did it eliminate confusion in defining which scent was the target? By the way, great work. Power on!


After we selection tested the dog the handler had a solid month of time where he only worked on bonding and "charging the mark" for food bits. We went right into teaching him to sit and then back-chaining the sit into his narcotics detection. It was FAST once the dog understood what the marker was. As far as the scent detection work... markers eliminate ALL of the human error in toy delivery and prevents the dog from learning bad habits based on reward errors. 

I posted this video of his obedience after 4 weeks of training... all done PP with markers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwbZub_lhn4

We did bite work with markers.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKx8d0h1TEM
Drug work with markers....
Article Search...
Building search...

The only things we did not do with markers were the area search and tracking. Gotta think how I can work those two in \\/


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## Kayce Cover

tracey delin said:


> Kayce,
> Glad to see you on here... I just shared your site on another board less than a month ago and have been on the "group" for years although its been very slow. Either way... I have a question about the sounds... what is the theory on the ggggggggggood? why not just a short good possibly repeated with a final GOOD or a goooooooooooooD.... or does it not matter as its the communication itself that makes the difference? just curious and maybe I missed it.
> 
> t


Glad to hear it! The BridgeandTarget2 list gets slow when I am not there, although it should not. We have some fantastic trainers minding the shop. Do not hesitate to draw people out to discuss your specific interests there. We have some very fine working dog trainers there.

About 'guguguguguGU!', vs 'gooooooooooOD!': I want to break the stretch into discrete pieces, giving the stream of behavior 'addresses', or 'coordinates' so that the animal knows exactly where, in the continuous stream of behavior, he either did it right, or quit doing it right. This makes a huge difference in training outcomes. Small but significant, simple but profound differences.

Best,
Kayce


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## Kayce Cover

Matthew Grubb said:


> After we selection tested the dog the handler had a solid month of time where he only worked on bonding and "charging the mark" for food bits. We went right into teaching him to sit and then back-chaining the sit into his narcotics detection. It was FAST once the dog understood what the marker was. As far as the scent detection work... markers eliminate ALL of the human error in toy delivery and prevents the dog from learning bad habits based on reward errors.
> 
> I posted this video of his obedience after 4 weeks of training... all done PP with markers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwbZub_lhn4
> 
> We did bite work with markers.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKx8d0h1TEM
> Drug work with markers....
> Article Search...
> Building search...
> 
> The only things we did not do with markers were the area search and tracking. Gotta think how I can work those two in \\/


I am loving what I am seeing. Is it okay for me to pass the video links on? If you are able to be on the chat, could we view these videos and maybe have you tell us more about them?


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## Connie Sutherland

Matthew Grubb said:


> After we selection tested the dog the handler had a solid month of time where he only worked on bonding and "charging the mark" for food bits. We went right into teaching him to sit and then back-chaining the sit into his narcotics detection. It was FAST once the dog understood what the marker was. As far as the scent detection work... markers eliminate ALL of the human error in toy delivery and prevents the dog from learning bad habits based on reward errors.
> 
> I posted this video of his obedience after 4 weeks of training... all done PP with markers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwbZub_lhn4
> 
> We did bite work with markers.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKx8d0h1TEM
> Drug work with markers....
> Article Search...
> Building search...
> 
> The only things we did not do with markers were the area search and tracking. Gotta think how I can work those two in \\/



Nice work.


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## Bob Scott

Matthew Grubb said:


> After we selection tested the dog the handler had a solid month of time where he only worked on bonding and "charging the mark" for food bits. We went right into teaching him to sit and then back-chaining the sit into his narcotics detection. It was FAST once the dog understood what the marker was. As far as the scent detection work... markers eliminate ALL of the human error in toy delivery and prevents the dog from learning bad habits based on reward errors.
> 
> I posted this video of his obedience after 4 weeks of training... all done PP with markers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwbZub_lhn4
> 
> We did bite work with markers.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKx8d0h1TEM
> Drug work with markers....
> Article Search...
> Building search...
> 
> The only things we did not do with markers were the area search and tracking. Gotta think how I can work those two in \\/




"GREAT" training video.......but those must be soft dogs. Everyone knows a "real" dog wouldn't put up with that silly stuff! :grin:;-)


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## Matthew Grubb

Bob Scott said:


> "GREAT" training video.......but those must be soft dogs. Everyone knows a "real" dog wouldn't put up with that silly stuff! :grin:;-)


Haha! Bob... the little man does great bitework. He's a monster on the hidden sleeve and were teacking him to be a little bit more comfortable muzzle fighting. It was ALL done with PP and markers.. no conflict at all... just all fun for the dog. 

I will hit 10 years of PSD training in May....I'm a baby compared to a lot of you guys... but since I startwd getting into marker work my whole understanding of how dogs think and how best to train them has changed.


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## Kayce Cover

Matthew Grubb said:


> Haha! Bob... the little man does great bitework. He's a monster on the hidden sleeve and were teacking him to be a little bit more comfortable muzzle fighting. It was ALL done with PP and markers.. no conflict at all... just all fun for the dog.
> 
> I will hit 10 years of PSD training in May....I'm a baby compared to a lot of you guys... but since I startwd getting into marker work my whole understanding of how dogs think and how best to train them has changed.


Logical, cool, calm, thinking, responsive, courageous, conscious, fast, athletic - these are traits of a good warrior - human or animal. When people start seeing what fully mentally engaged animals are capable of - the working dog world will change. And thinking trainers will excel.


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## Connie Sutherland

Matthew Grubb said:


> Haha! Bob... the little man does great bitework. He's a monster on the hidden sleeve and were teacking him to be a little bit more comfortable muzzle fighting. It was ALL done with PP and markers.. no conflict at all... just all fun for the dog.
> 
> I will hit 10 years of PSD training in May....I'm a baby compared to a lot of you guys... but since I startwd getting into marker work my whole understanding of how dogs think and how best to train them has changed.


You might be a baby (only in years) compared to my pal veteran PSD TD, but you and he think the same way. Completely open to different when different works so great.


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> "GREAT" training video.......but those must be soft dogs. Everyone knows a "real" dog wouldn't put up with that silly stuff! :grin:;-)


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Matthew Grubb said:


> Haha! Bob... the little man does great bitework. He's a monster on the hidden sleeve and were teacking him to be a little bit more comfortable muzzle fighting. It was ALL done with PP and markers.. *no conflict at all*... just all fun for the dog.
> 
> I will hit 10 years of PSD training in May....I'm a baby compared to a lot of you guys... but since I startwd getting into marker work my whole understanding of how dogs think and how best to train them has changed.


 
That's why I like it. It gets rid of stress and conflict in the learning phase. It also clues you in on how the dog processes information and gets you in his head. For instance, I learned that one of mine is so specific she trains to a spot on the ground. She will perform the behavior in that spot, but no where else. Takes more to get her to generalize it to other contexts and locations. It would have appeared she was disobedient--not so. She does not generalize. My other dog is a generalist and is more analytical. 

T


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's why I like it. It gets rid of stress and conflict in the learning phase. It also clues you in on how the dog processes information and gets you in his head. For instance, I learned that one of mine is so specific she trains to a spot on the ground. * She will perform the behavior in that spot, but no where else.* Takes more to get her to generalize it to other contexts and locations. It would have appeared she was disobedient--not so. She does not generalize. My other dog is a generalist and is more analytical.
> 
> T


I had this same discovery with a dog recently. He needed much more proofing for venue changes than most dogs, and it was simple both to detect and to fix .... when there is almost a language in common. At least, if not quite language, a stream of information that goes both ways.


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## Kayce Cover

*Chat, anyone?*

Reminder: Chat tonight, 8 pm EST, all it takes is for you to send your phone number or skype ID and be at the phone (and also by your computer if you want to see video) 

I will start the call at 8. When you answer, you may hear the noise of everyone saying hi at once. Wait a moment and I'll introduce those on the call. Then we can get down to talking.

If you don't have skype, it is easy to get and use. Go to skype.com, register, make an account and send your skype ID. It costs you nothing to receive my call or have a skype account.

Best wishes and looking forward to talking. I'm ready to demonstrate modulated bridges if anyone is wanting to hear them.

Best wishes,
Kayce


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## Connie Sutherland

Kayce, what does "marker modulation" mean? 

Every time I think I not only know but have used (in training) all the terms, here comes a new one .... :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> I had this same discovery with a dog recently. He needed much more proofing for venue changes than most dogs, and it was simple both to detect and to fix .... when there is almost a language in common. At least, if not quite language, a stream of information that goes both ways.


I would have never figured it out without marker training. It also saved one of my trial runs. I gave a command on an obstacle and she just sat there and looked at me. I did some quick thinking and thought in training what do I tell her to do. Once I gave that command, she all but gave me the thumbs up. She was in a spot on the course and at home it always worked a certain way. Not so on the trial field. I was able to give the usual command and then another to recover it. That was my cue to REALLY mix it up all over the field and in different locations. 

T


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## Kayce Cover

Connie Sutherland said:


> Kayce, what does "marker modulation" mean?
> 
> Every time I think I not only know but have used (in training) all the terms, here comes a new one .... :lol:


You and me both! Howard's marker training thread got me - they talked about MT and I thought, "What in the heck is MT??" I think maybe it referred to marker training... now that I think about it.

The first level of information in a marker is to fix a moment in time. However, by modulating other levels, we get added value. By increasing pitch, I can often escalate speed and effort, by lowering pitch, I can might discourage straying. The frequency appears to be important to optimizing learning. We can talk about that tonight - it's kind of interesting and ties in with Schumann frequency, alpha brain wave frequency and Mozart. By intensifying the IB, I can often anchor a dog through a distraction or a change. It's a form of juggling - easy once you get the knack, hard until you do (for most of us, at least), and kind of fascinating to watch until then. However, the kind of coordination required is a skill which many good trainers already have mastered, in slightly different applications. So, not such a big deal - mostly just becoming conscious of the options.


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## Kevin Cramer

I wanted to show this video of my last Mali and I training articles. I backchained this just as Steve White shows in the videos on his website. This was probably the third session we did. The dog first learned to target an object with her nose. Then after the dog touched the target with her nose, I cued the down. I eventually phased out the cue and the dog would down on her own after touching the article.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG5sUfFApWk

I also used markers in more advanced stages of tracking. If she did something particularly well during a track (nailed a corner or street crossing, etc...) I marked out. She'd then come back to me and play for a few seconds. I'd out her and start her on the track again and off we went. She never missed a beat. I found this was a good way to break up long tracks and relieve stress when it got a little tough.


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## Shawn Reed

Joby Becker said:


> As far as clients go, if I am training a dog of course I work with whatever is in front of me, I am currently "crate" training a year old dog that shits in the crate because the owners gave him a XXL and think they can trot off to work and be out and about for 10-14 hours at a time, and he is also nervy shy unconfident dog as well...I work with the dog in my home, and am trying to get through to the owners, but I do not like that dog or the owners...LOL...they need to be home more, and they need a smaller crate, but of course they feel bad about a smaller crate, cause the dog spends too much time in it, so they got a huge one, that the dog can crap in without even soiling himself....
> 
> My point was from a dog owner perspective, not a trainer's perspective.....there are plenty of normal dogs that need to be saved, for every basketcase dog that is saved, there is a decent dog waiting to be put down in a shelter..emotions muddy logic sometimes....no dog is perfect I know....but there is a line that I feel should be adhered to, just my opinion....



I hear ya. But for me it's really exciting to get the dog that was completely hand shy to be lured to a down. That Pyrenees I have been working with is sitting, staying and downing on cue now! Granted it took 4 lessons. The owner who rescued him is ecstatic! I know it really isn't exciting to anyone on here, but it took a lot of patience and reading the dog to get him to that point. There were a couple of times where I knew we had to stop b/c he was too stressed out. My point is that training an under-socialized dog(or bad genetics) is an art in itself! It's a challenge I like taking. I guess this is why I am a pet dog trainer LOL.


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## Gillian Schuler

Joby Becker said:


> if a clicker scares a dog.....that has to be one crappy dog.....why???? just wondering....I guess maybe it was not the super crappy genetics, it could be someone that had the dog, messed it up that bad...but I doubt it..
> 
> I work with pet dogs sometimes, but that is beyond my tolerance for crappiness..scared of a clicker...there are plenty of better dogs waiting to be saved...


I've only read up to your post Joby, and find it all interesting.

I think that the answer to your question is that timid dogs are always frightened of the unknown and what to you is "harmless" is frightening to the dog - so it's not the actual "clicker sound" that frightens the dog but the strange sound in itself.


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## Gillian Schuler

Kayce,

In one of your posts you mentioned that you had success with dogs in Schuitzhund using clicker that the "fine trainers did not have".

I know you (from your posts) but I don't know which trainers you mean so here we are at a disadantage. Many Schutzhund trainers are dumb so it would be unfair to compare the dumb trainers to someone who has successfully worked out the clicker / marking training to perfection.

As to sound, I am fairly certain that litters have similar problems but with different outcomes. In my older GSDs litter, one of the females "froze" at the sound of a squeaky toy - mine went beserk at 7 months when I used one and jumped up at me, artificially "biiting me" whereupon I put him in "down" and worked with him on something else.

For me, the sound is one of the main reasons to differentiate between sold and weak dogs - just think of the gunshot test. It's exactly the same for each dog and here one can weed out the weak from the "less weak"[-X or not?


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## Kayce Cover

Kevin Cramer said:


> I wanted to show this video of my last Mali and I training articles. I backchained this just as Steve White shows in the videos on his website. This was probably the third session we did. The dog first learned to target an object with her nose. Then after the dog touched the target with her nose, I cued the down. I eventually phased out the cue and the dog would down on her own after touching the article.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG5sUfFApWk
> 
> I also used markers in more advanced stages of tracking. If she did something particularly well during a track (nailed a corner or street crossing, etc...) I marked out. She'd then come back to me and play for a few seconds. I'd out her and start her on the track again and off we went. She never missed a beat. I found this was a good way to break up long tracks and relieve stress when it got a little tough.


Her behavior is clean and confident. I love to see that. Relieving stress can help prevent her from getting in the habit of getting souped up - which will make her better at her job and safeguard her health. Nice! Thanks for sharing this and I'd love to see more.


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## Kayce Cover

Shawn Reed said:


> I hear ya. But for me it's really exciting to get the dog that was completely hand shy to be lured to a down. That Pyrenees I have been working with is sitting, staying and downing on cue now! Granted it took 4 lessons. The owner who rescued him is ecstatic! I know it really isn't exciting to anyone on here, but it took a lot of patience and reading the dog to get him to that point. There were a couple of times where I knew we had to stop b/c he was too stressed out. My point is that training an under-socialized dog(or bad genetics) is an art in itself! It's a challenge I like taking. I guess this is why I am a pet dog trainer LOL.


Hi Shawn, No matter the application, it is interesting to see successful problem solving. Have you tried naming what you are doing, what you want, etc, for the dog?


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## Kayce Cover

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've only read up to your post Joby, and find it all interesting.
> 
> I think that the answer to your question is that timid dogs are always frightened of the unknown and what to you is "harmless" is frightening to the dog - so it's not the actual "clicker sound" that frightens the dog but the strange sound in itself.


Not always so, Gillian. Perhaps it is sometimes so. I have seen dogs that overreact to a verbal bridge, a clicker, or sometimes even stimuli that seem really mild to me. However, many times, it is just an initial response that the dog develops past.


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## Kayce Cover

Gillian Schuler said:


> Kayce,
> 
> In one of your posts you mentioned that you had success with dogs in Schuitzhund using clicker that the "fine trainers did not have".
> 
> I know you (from your posts) but I don't know which trainers you mean so here we are at a disadantage. Many Schutzhund trainers are dumb so it would be unfair to compare the dumb trainers to someone who has successfully worked out the clicker / marking training to perfection.
> 
> As to sound, I am fairly certain that litters have similar problems but with different outcomes. In my older GSDs litter, one of the females "froze" at the sound of a squeaky toy - mine went beserk at 7 months when I used one and jumped up at me, artificially "biiting me" whereupon I put him in "down" and worked with him on something else.
> 
> For me, the sound is one of the main reasons to differentiate between sold and weak dogs - just think of the gunshot test. It's exactly the same for each dog and here one can weed out the weak from the "less weak"[-X or not?


Hey Gillian,

Interesting about using the sound sensitivity to sort dogs. However, I see a big change in dogs over this issue and have retrained many, many dogs with initial sound sensitivities that disappeared from detection. I would hate for great dogs to be scratched because they were more discriminating than the norm.

For many dogs, an extreme noise that is unknown, causes them to balk until they know about the noise. It is true that these dogs may continue to be more sensitive to new stimuli, but they may be able to adapt very quickly. Meanwhile, their heightened perceptiveness might be useful in certain applications.

As for the fine trainers - I was not referring to a clicker. I am not sure what all they had tried, but suspect it was whatever is the norm in schutzhund training. I don't use a clicker at all. Ever. I called them fine trainers because I was impressed with the program I saw, their accomplishments, and the fact that t hey were not enmeshed in their own egos. They ran a fine club and helped many new handlers, and I enjoyed helping on this. It took very little time, but is most efficient when one really has the timing down, and can provide markers at a fast rate.

Best,
Kayce


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I select against any sound sensitivity as a general rule and I don't buy the recovery distinction, generally. Sound sensitivity can be a huge problem in terms of dogs that don't work and the extreme in that dogs are so afraid they take off running and injure themselves. There's sound and there is storm and they sometimes overlap. Somethings you maybe able to desensitize but in other cases, not. During hunting season there are guns going off in a distance everywhere. One trialing facility is known for the train and whistle that og off in the middle of your run. Gates clang and bang, etc. We lay bets that the torrential downpour is going to happen during my run and there may be thunder in a distance. A sound sensitive dog becomes very difficult to handle in these situations.

One of the other things that happens is that it develops later around a year. So the baby puppy may have been fine but then you have to work with it later because it develops later. Several club members sent DNA swabs for a study for herding dogs and sound sensitivity but I never heard what became of it.

Terrasita


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## Kayce Cover

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I select against any sound sensitivity as a general rule and I don't buy the recovery distinction, generally. Sound sensitivity can be a huge problem in terms of dogs that don't work and the extreme in that dogs are so afraid they take off running and injure themselves. There's sound and there is storm and they sometimes overlap. Somethings you maybe able to desensitize but in other cases, not. During hunting season there are guns going off in a distance everywhere. One trialing facility is known for the train and whistle that og off in the middle of your run. Gates clang and bang, etc. We lay bets that the torrential downpour is going to happen during my run and there may be thunder in a distance. A sound sensitive dog becomes very difficult to handle in these situations.
> 
> One of the other things that happens is that it develops later around a year. So the baby puppy may have been fine but then you have to work with it later because it develops later. Several club members sent DNA swabs for a study for herding dogs and sound sensitivity but I never heard what became of it.
> 
> Terrasita


One benefit of doing more work with folks in your line of sport is that we can compare results - or, you can test our techniques. I have no argument - I have not had the job of correcting those particular dogs in those particular situations. However, I have had 30+ dogs working in a seminar when golf-ball sized hail, lightning and thunder were hitting the huge tin roof. We had some really disturbed dogs, lunging to the ends of their leashes, but had everyone turned around and working again in a matter of minutes. So, I'll keep it in mind that this is a severe problem in this sport line, and maybe you can keep it in mind to test it again, regardless of past experience. 

Best wishes,
Kayce


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