# purchasing my first wedge.



## Amber Emerson (Jun 30, 2015)

Now is the time for me to get more serious with my pups training. I will be getting a few new "toys," a good large tug, a bite wedge and harness. I'm looking for ideas on excercises to do with him. Hes been using a pillow since 8 weeks so he knows the basics. I plan on working on his grip mostly. Hes pretty good at targeting but deffenatly could be better. I'm also thinking about an object guard. He will be used for personal protection and not sure if I will need it or not. He will though learn how to "guard" the car so I'm wondering if I could use the object guard to teach him the basics and hope a lot will stick with him when we do move to the car. My breeder/trainer is a shutzhund trainer and my pup is from schutzhund lines. I do have access to a decoy but he is a beginner decoy. I. Plan on using the wedge like I did the pillow but I'm wondering if its time to include a decoy or helper. Thoughts would be greatly appriciated.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Green dog + green helper/decoy is NEVER a good idea.

Green dog + experienced helper/decoy. Excellent!

Experienced dog with green helper/decoy and an experienced helper/decoy over seeing it . Excellent!


Owning a personal protection dog is a VERY serious undertaking without a very experienced trainer.

"IF" a person has a real need for a PPD then they should absolutely carry a side arm.

The dog is there to give you time to get away and or get to your gun. 

MOST folks that feel the need for a PPD can do well with a good dog that can be trained for an aggressive alert/threat.

"IF" the bad guy is willing to go through the aggressive display is where you need the side arm and thee are people out there can can get through most dogs.

Any dog can be trained to bite but not so many that will actually stay in a fight where the bad guy is willing to keep the pressure on the dog.


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## Amber Emerson (Jun 30, 2015)

I am working very closely with a trainer and experienced decoy but cant always take the trip. Iv heard the speil many of times and I'm done explaining why I chose to train for it. Just because I post a "beginner" question like doesn't mean I know nothing!


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## Amber Emerson (Jun 30, 2015)

Bob Scott said:


> Green dog + green helper/decoy is NEVER a good idea.
> 
> Green dog + experienced helper/decoy. Excellent!
> 
> ...


I wonder how many times you've copy and pasted this....


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Good advice is good advice. Bob gave solid advice from an experienced point of view. I doubt he meant to get your hackles up. 

PPD training IS very demanding, with the very real potential for serious consequences. Good trainers/decoys are hard to come by, and worth the drive. Ill echo what Bob said, don't allow a green decoy work your green dog. Or do. Its your dog. Ive had more than a few "protection trained" dogs come to me to undo all the crap that was done to them. Its a steady gig, actually. Stick with the breeder doing the helper work, as long as they know what they are doing.

No dog is bullet proof, and there are more than a few people out there who mean other people harm and/or death, that have no problem going toe-to-toe with a dog. Which is where you come in...with greater and final force. Firearms are the great equalizer. 

As far as training a guard command for the car, I wouldn't worry about it at this stage. The way I always teach dogs is that they didn't need any command while in the car or in the house. That, in of itself requires great awareness on the handlers part to not get some one bit, who wasn't supposed to get bit.

As far as teaching the guard command at all...go for it. Better to have it and not need it...plus, its fun to teach your dog everything you can.

You can keep working the dogs grip, targeting and building the dogs drive with the wedge. You can back tie the pup as well to help with all that.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

If you can stand another point of view.....

Using a green decoy(s) on a green dog, even though you may know a lot won't help you much. I'm training a green dog for sar and using a green decoy to teach the bark alert. To put it bluntly, the individual(s) timing and motivational cueing is miserable. They are early, late, or sometimes forget to do exactly what you told them to do. I got a great decoy to give a demonstration of "How" to do what I wanted. The progress the dog made with a great decoy in one short session was amazing. When I tried to get the green decoy to replicate, it was like the demonstration had never happened. I am spending a lot of time rigging the training so that the decoy won't set the dog back (or give me a problem I have to fix) that I am questioning if its worth doing it or hold off until I can get back up with an experienced decoy. From my perspective, with what I'm seeing, there are some things better to wait on and do with the *right* people then do with folks that either won't advance your dog or screw him up.

As a suggestion, since it's just you and this green decoy, I would stage some practice work first using an imaginary dog. Go through all the motions and practice how you want the guy to present the wedge and/or how to tease the dog. Sounds silly but do it and get the kinks worked out before you throw a dog into the mix.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> As a suggestion, since it's just you and this green decoy, I would stage some practice work first using an imaginary dog. Go through all the motions and practice how you want the guy to present the wedge and/or how to tease the dog. Sounds silly but do it and get the kinks worked out before you throw a dog into the mix.


That's how we start some of the new decoys. The experienced decoys become the dogs and have the new decoy work the wedge, sleeve, and suit.


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## Amber Emerson (Jun 30, 2015)

Brian McQuain said:


> Good advice is good advice. Bob gave solid advice from an experienced point of view. I doubt he meant to get your hackles up.
> 
> PPD training IS very demanding, with the very real potential for serious consequences. Good trainers/decoys are hard to come by, and worth the drive. Ill echo what Bob said, don't allow a green decoy work your green dog. Or do. Its your dog. Ive had more than a few "protection trained" dogs come to me to undo all the crap that was done to them. Its a steady gig, actually. Stick with the breeder doing the helper work, as long as they know what they are doing.
> 
> ...


My plan was to have my dog work with the experienced decoy then once hes notnsp "green" have him work with the new decoy but not very much. I still plan on going to the experienced decorum but have him work with the other inbetween. And I don't mean like realistic scenarios. With the green decoy we will probly only use a large tug or wedge. I plan on taking it very slow with my dog and base everything around play unroll about 18 months old at least. Thank you for the other advice it was very usefully. By decoy/ helper I just mean an edgucated extra person. Not nevcecarily meaning someone with a sleeve or suit. I'm wanting to train for the call off before a bite and bark and hold and such. And I plan on doing so with toys first. I do mostly obedience and capping before the actual bitework. Please tell me if this is wrong. I know its serious work. Iv been training dogs for a long time and I bought the books and Dvds on training protection and went and spent my whole life savings on a dog with the right genetics and joins a group. I am very serious with everything I do and honestly even more so about this. I have a very good idea about what it takes.


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## Amber Emerson (Jun 30, 2015)

Brian McQuain said:


> Good advice is good advice. Bob gave solid advice from an experienced point of view. I doubt he meant to get your hackles up.
> 
> PPD training IS very demanding, with the very real potential for serious consequences. Good trainers/decoys are hard to come by, and worth the drive. Ill echo what Bob said, don't allow a green decoy work your green dog. Or do. Its your dog. Ive had more than a few "protection trained" dogs come to me to undo all the crap that was done to them. Its a steady gig, actually. Stick with the breeder doing the helper work, as long as they know what they are doing.
> 
> ...


And just because people keep bringing it up I DO OWN A GUN!!


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## Amber Emerson (Jun 30, 2015)

Sarah Platts said:


> If you can stand another point of view.....
> 
> Using a green decoy(s) on a green dog, even though you may know a lot won't help you much. I'm training a green dog for sar and using a green decoy to teach the bark alert. To put it bluntly, the individual(s) timing and motivational cueing is miserable. They are early, late, or sometimes forget to do exactly what you told them to do. I got a great decoy to give a demonstration of "How" to do what I wanted. The progress the dog made with a great decoy in one short session was amazing. When I tried to get the green decoy to replicate, it was like the demonstration had never happened. I am spending a lot of time rigging the training so that the decoy won't set the dog back (or give me a problem I have to fix) that I am questioning if its worth doing it or hold off until I can get back up with an experienced decoy. From my perspective, with what I'm seeing, there are some things better to wait on and do with the *right* people then do with folks that either won't advance your dog or screw him up.
> 
> As a suggestion, since it's just you and this green decoy, I would stage some practice work first using an imaginary dog. Go through all the motions and practice how you want the guy to present the wedge and/or how to tease the dog. Sounds silly but do it and get the kinks worked out before you throw a dog into the mix.


I never said its just me and this decoy....I meet at least once a month with experience decoy and trainer...


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Amber Emerson said:


> I never said its just me and this decoy....I meet at least once a month with experience decoy and trainer...


I understand what you said. Maybe it's just me and the way you write but it seems like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. No one here is doubting your dedication but giving you some of our experiences.

Since you have probably discussed the bite training with your trainer, I would go with whatever he has told you. If he is fine with what you are proposing then you are all set. He can also advise you on the type of wedge he thinks would work well for you.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Hi Amber, im hoping folks who know, will tell you the answer to your question, what toys?

Im 5 weeks off my new mal pup arriving, and have a lot of tugs/rags/flirt pole for the first ? months, and was wondering what toys for bite work there are, hierarchy wise. 
Is there perhaps something handy like a sleeve No.1, then 2. Or is it french linen then jute? what are the stages of bite toys (in which im lumping sleeves).

Im skint folks. So cant afford everything my dog wants. Think more need than want. 
After say a euro joe 3 handled bite pillow, what comes next?

amber can i ask, what age is your pup now, that its ready to move onto newer toys? just as a rough guestimate for a newbie of when this might be?


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## Amber Emerson (Jun 30, 2015)

Sarah Platts said:


> I understand what you said. Maybe it's just me and the way you write but it seems like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. No one here is doubting your dedication but giving you some of our experiences.
> 
> Since you have probably discussed the bite training with your trainer, I would go with whatever he has told you. If he is fine with what you are proposing then you are all set. He can also advise you on the type of wedge he thinks would work well for you.


Honestly its probly the way I word it...for someone reason nobedy ever knows what I mean :/ I was also a bit offended when people go on and say its a big resposability and you should get a gun crap. I feel like that was a bit judgmentl of them. The trainer said what I'm found is ok but I think everyone needs more than one opinion. I don't want to limit myself and my dog to what just my trainer knows and hopefully learn from other trainers as well. I don't like basing all my knowledge on what one person has said.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Amber Emerson said:


> I was also a bit offended when people go on and say its a big resposability and you should get a gun crap. I feel like that was a bit judgmentl of them.


As an ardent 2nd Amendment supporter, I'd like to know why? Was the judgment perceived on your end because it was just well meaning advice extended to you? 

The fact that you didn't offer up that information but freely did so about other relatively irrelevant facts doesn't the make offense ours to hold. You didn't say otherwise. It's a logical starting place for anyone who pursues a PPD, to also have taken the measures necessary to secure a firearm and the dog is intended to be a second line of defense. Often, this is a critical fact that is overlooked.

You did not indicate so from the onset; in absence of that information, it was suggested. If you are armed, that is, if you have the privilege to be armed and are, you should be damned proud of it!


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## Amber Emerson (Jun 30, 2015)

Nicole Stark said:


> As an ardent 2nd Amendment supporter, I'd like to know why? Was the judgment perceived on your end because it was just well meaning advice extended to you?
> 
> The fact that you didn't offer up that information but freely did so about other relatively irrelevant facts doesn't the make offense ours to hold. You didn't say otherwise. It's a logical starting place for anyone who pursues a PPD, to also have taken the measures necessary to secure a firearm and the dog is intended to be a second line of defense. Often, this is a critical fact that is overlooked.
> 
> You did not indicate so from the onset; in absence of that information, it was suggested. If you are armed, that is, if you have the privilege to be armed and are, you should be damned proud of it!


Im offended because I have done years of research and learning before even getting a dog and I know very well a dog is only to buy you time. 
I will have a gun but personally am not a fan. My family is, me not so much. There are also times when I wont be able to have my gun with me but my dog will ALWAYS be with me. 
...I feel weather or not I plan on having a gun is irrelevant when asking a training question. When I mention that I am doing protection training I'm not going to follow up with (yes, I also have a gun.) I also kind of think if your considering a protection dog you should already know that you should have a gun. Kind of basic stuff or it should be anyway.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Fair enough.

Then, you should also have a plan that doesn't rely upon your approval of the advice offered by members on a public forum. Just keeping it real.

Being offended can be a result of a subconscious emotional reaction. For some it's more automatic than it is in others. Above all, how we choose to respond to that feeling or any other, is always a choice.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Amber Emerson said:


> Im offended because I have done years of research and learning before even getting a dog and I know very well a dog is only to buy you time.
> I will have a gun but personally am not a fan. My family is, me not so much. There are also times when I wont be able to have my gun with me but my dog will ALWAYS be with me.
> ...I feel weather or not I plan on having a gun is irrelevant when asking a training question. When I mention that I am doing protection training I'm not going to follow up with (yes, I also have a gun.) I also kind of think if your considering a protection dog you should already know that you should have a gun. Kind of basic stuff or it should be anyway.



I wasn't being judgmental at all when I wrote about owning and carrying a firearm. That's advice I like to give to everyone interested in self preservation. It wasn't directed at your ability and knowledge to train a dog. 

Wanting a ppd suggests to me that you are interested in self protection, which goes hand in hand with firearms, imo. The baddest ninja-fu dog/handler combo in the world will loose every time to a lead projectile...or straight copper, if the shooter is concerned with saving the planet. Dogs and humans are neither bulletproof, stab proof, or bludgeon proof.

Dogs are a pretty good deterrent, but not always...and I can promise you, there are people out there who will go right through your dog to get to you if they so desire.

So, train your dog to what you feel you want/need, and HAVE FUN WITH IT!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Amber Emerson said:


> Honestly its probly the way I word it...for someone reason nobedy ever knows what I mean :/ I was also a bit offended when people go on and say its a big resposability and you should get a gun crap. I feel like that was a bit judgmentl of them. The trainer said what I'm found is ok but I think everyone needs more than one opinion. I don't want to limit myself and my dog to what just my trainer knows and hopefully learn from other trainers as well. I don't like basing all my knowledge on what one person has said.


Fair enough. Something to keep in the back of your mind though. No one here is a mind reader. All we have to go on is what you write. And how you write it. Many people feel that a dog is better than a gun but both are just tools. When someone posts that they are "new" and just getting started there is always a bit of back and forth till everyone gets on the same page. You may think some are forming judgments and maybe you feel we are not taking you serious because of your age, sex, or whatever. Please don't get offended. Otherwise you will be going through the rest of your adult life upset with someone.


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## Amber Emerson (Jun 30, 2015)

I think this thread should end. I don't need a leson on self preservation or on dealing with people. I just had a question about training. Nothing else. Now if I would have said should I get a gun or get a dog THEN you can tell me to get a gun. I have one and I know how lethal they are I have a family member who is a gun Smith. Its nothing new to me. I want to train personal protection because iv been working with dogs for a long time with all breeds and all temperaments. Iv worked with police k9s Shutzhund dogs and bomb sniffing dogs. I think I'm ready for the next level and crime is getting so much worse at least were I live and have been in a few sticky situations in the last few years. Because of the work I do my dog will always be with me and always watch my back even if I cant. I know the gun will always be my first choice but I may not even see the attacker. He will be more of a deturent but if push came to shove I don't want a dog that will run first chance. Im not specificity training him to be a ppd. I'm training him for shutzhund and if he does well will move onto defence work if he doesn't do well we wont. He will also be CGC certified and trained in another dog sport. This IS NOT going to be the only work he does.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not at all meant to be judgemental or dictating what you should do. Jusr giving my thoughts on the subject.

Folks here give their thoughts here to offer to help those who ask dog questions. 

I don't know enough about these new fangled typewriters to "cut and paste" so I hunt and peck each time I post. :grin:


When in serious trouble don't call 911, call 1911. 

:-o8-[ Did I say that with my outloud voice....again?! :twisted: :wink:


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