# Nutrition Questions?



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm doing a clinical nutrition externship down at the University of Tennessee right now. I'm the only student on for this first week, so I have lots of one on one time with the nutritionists. Just like I did a while back on the orthopaedic surgery elective I took, if anyone's got any burning questions you always were curious about, I'll see if I can ask them and get them answered if I don't know the answer myself. This is one of my very last times I get to ask a bunch of questions to the doctors "for free" as a student since I'm nearly done, so send them my way. PMs are okay too. :mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks, how about the safety of processed pork as the number 1 food in dry dog food.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Do you actually have to supplement vitamine e with fish oil for the fish oil to be effective?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Do you actually have to supplement vitamine e with fish oil for the fish oil to be effective?


This one I can answer...it's not a matter that the fish oil doesn't "work" if you don't give it, but fish oil oxidizes in the body as its broken down (kind of like how both liquid oils olive oil, peanut oil, corn oil, etc and more solid oils that are in butter, lard, etc goes rancid). This creates free radicals, which the vitamin E as an antioxidant helps protect against. So while fish oil is an anti-inflammatory, it's NOT an antioxidant (it's a pro-oxidant, actually). If you're on large amounts of fish oil, the body may actually become deficient in vitamin E without supplementation trying to keep up with the oxidation of the omega 3s.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

What are the actual pros and cons of raw vs kibble diet? This seems to be always popping up as a topic of discussion. Or, that too general?


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Debbie Skinner said:


> What are the actual pros and cons of raw vs kibble diet? This seems to be always popping up as a topic of discussion. Or, that too general?


Hi Debbie...unfortunately, it will be very difficult to find a veterinary nutritionist, or many veterinarians in general, that are going to be pro-raw. They are too afraid of the potential risk for bacterial contamination. 

Hey Maren, I am waiting for our nutritionist here to get back to me regarding TOTW...see what they think on that side. Unfortunately, my nutritionist heard some bad things about Instinct...which is bad since this is what I have been feeding my IG for years. I feed the mal K9 cravings. I had her look at the website, and though she doesn't like the idea of feeding raw, she was at least impressed by the ingredients and the fact it was a USDA processing plant.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi Gina, one of my mentors (a DVM PhD former Army vet) LOVES Nature's Variety Instinct, especially for diabetic kitties that need to go on Catkins. I think the veterinary nutritionists don't mind it per se, but when they have a food allergy consult that comes on with dogs that have been on it, they go bananas cause it has everything but the kitchen sink in it. I don't really like that the rabbit variety has to have rabbits that come from China either but eh...I do like the fact that Nature's Variety at least did the AAFCO feeding trails on their frozen raw. I hear it's becoming quite popular to use by some of the internists, though they prefer to cook it lightly in the microwave. One of the reasons I picked Tennessee for my externship is that they're a wee bit more open to raw that just about anywhere else. They're apparently currently doing raw feeding studies, which is excellent. So if I can do a residency in nutrition, I'd definitely be interested in doing it there! ;-)


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Hi Debbie...unfortunately, it will be very difficult to find a veterinary nutritionist, or many veterinarians in general, that are going to be pro-raw. They are too afraid of the potential risk for bacterial contamination.
> .


Oh well, since I feed raw, I can't think of another question.. darn it. Oh, I do use ground egg shell as the calcium source for the puppies. Anything wrong with that?


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Oh well, since I feed raw, I can't think of another question.. darn it. Oh, I do use ground egg shell as the calcium source for the puppies. Anything wrong with that?


If you are using the egg shells with the raw for calcium, thats fine. Don't want to supplement calcium without knowing you have a deficit when feeding kibble because you throw off the calcium phosphorus ratio. Calcium is one of those things that over supplementation is also bad.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> If you are using the egg shells with the raw for calcium, thats fine. Don't want to supplement calcium without knowing you have a deficit when feeding kibble because you throw off the calcium phosphorus ratio. Calcium is one of those things that over supplementation is also bad.



To be even more clear, not with raw either unless it's short of calcium for some reason (like lacking digestible bones).


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> To be even more clear, not with raw either unless it's short of calcium for some reason (like lacking digestible bones).


Yes, that's the raw I mean. When I'm grinding beef, venison, goat, etc. Sometimes I have fish I can put through the grinder and then have some bone content. I don't have poultry parts. It's for the puppies. Adult dogs get edible bone and I don't grind for them.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yes, that's the raw I mean. When I'm grinding beef, venison, goat, etc. Sometimes I have fish I can put through the grinder and then have some bone content. I don't have poultry parts. It's for the puppies. Adult dogs get edible bone and I don't grind for them.


Ah. Gotcha. 1/2 tsp eggshell powder = approx 800-900 mg elemental calcium.

(Purchased calcium citrate, for example, has much less elemental calcium per measure.)


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

is there a brand/type of hip/joint supplement that is better than the others. I dont mind paying for a supplement, but dont want to buy something they are peeing out....The alternative is buying human pills, but they are expensive.

Thanks Maren!


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Does freezing raw (particularly venison) before feeding potentially destroy any harmful bacteria? What types of bacteria would be a possible problem?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Denise Gatlin said:


> Does freezing raw (particularly venison) before feeding potentially destroy any harmful bacteria? What types of bacteria would be a possible problem?


Hi Denise, unfortunately freezing does not kill all harmful bacteria. I am not a bacteriologist, but I understand that is one of the ways they store bacteria to study is in the freezer. If frozen for long enough (3-4 weeks of a solid deep freeze is recommended), it will kill MOST parasites but not all. They have found a species that is related to the trichinellosis in pigs will live over two years in frozen bear or cougar meat! :-o So probably not a good idea to feed bear or mountain lion. ;-) So bacteria, no, parasites, most of them.

The same bacteria that can affect humans can also affect dogs. Dogs do seem to be more likely to be subclinical for things like salmonella, E. coli, campylobacteria and so on, but almost everyone who feeds raw for any length of time will probably notice their dogs having episodes of loose stools or diarrhea from time to time, likely due from the bacteria on raw meat. So there are certain circumstances where I personally do not believe raw to be appropriate for dogs (or their owners). This includes dogs that are immunocompromised (either the dog itself or other dogs or cats in the household) or who have cancer. 

In the case of the owner, likewise with very young children where most of us know where O157:H7 E. coli or Salmonella can be deadly or if the people are likewise immunocompromised (AIDS, cancer, etc), it's not a good idea and would be simply safer to cook the food. Some vets advocate washing the surface of the meat off well and boiling or searing the surface of the meat briefly so that it doesn't cook the bones but it's like the equivalent of blue or rare meat. I think this is a very reasonable compromise between raw and cooked (which is generally more work as it either needs to be ground or an amount of calcium needs to be calculated).


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> This one I can answer...it's not a matter that the fish oil doesn't "work" if you don't give it, but fish oil oxidizes in the body as its broken down (kind of like how both liquid oils olive oil, peanut oil, corn oil, etc and more solid oils that are in butter, lard, etc goes rancid). This creates free radicals, which the vitamin E as an antioxidant helps protect against. So while fish oil is an anti-inflammatory, it's NOT an antioxidant (it's a pro-oxidant, actually). If you're on large amounts of fish oil, the body may actually become deficient in vitamin E without supplementation trying to keep up with the oxidation of the omega 3s.


Thanks. A nice pretty simple reply. I can never figure out why Fish oil is sold everywhere for dogs with no mention of vitamine e. I mean they could sell vit e for a profit with the fish oil LOL. The only place I ever heard that was from Connie (leerburg)...? It just doesn't seem to be common knowledge in other circles.


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## Kristin Jakubczak (Jan 17, 2011)

Which is better for dogs, whole raw eggs or whole hard boiled eggs? I hear about the same amount of people saying the other is good/bad for valid reasons so I'm a little confused as to which is best. And how many times a week should you feed them? I feed kibble if that makes a difference.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristin Jakubczak said:


> Which is better for dogs, whole raw eggs or whole hard boiled eggs? I hear about the same amount of people saying the other is good/bad for valid reasons so I'm a little confused as to which is best. And how many times a week should you feed them? I feed kibble if that makes a difference.




Complete inactivation of the avidin's biotin-binding takes 4 minutes in the shell (hard-cooked) or long enough cracked open into a skillet for the white to be firm (the yolk can stay runny).

That's what I generally do: cook them, a dozen or so at a time. Easy, fast.

Or if I give whole raw eggs I limit them to maybe a couple a week.


I used to think that the yolk provided enough biotin to offset the binding nature of the avidin, but turns out out I was wrong. In fact, not even close. 

Some Bayer biochemist in 2006 or 2007 found that no, there is not enough biotin in an egg yolk to bind to all the avidin in the raw white. He found that many times the amount of biotin actually in an average yolk was needed to completely neutralize the avidin. *


_
* I am looking for this paper. Anyone else have it?_


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Thanks. A nice pretty simple reply. I can never figure out why Fish oil is sold everywhere for dogs with no mention of vitamine e. I mean they could sell vit e for a profit with the fish oil LOL. The only place I ever heard that was from Connie (leerburg)... It just doesn't seem to be common knowledge in other circles.


Maybe because there are some heart considerations with Vitamin E for humans. (There's kinda recent research, still not definite, suggesting E-supplement problems for some heart patients.)

Dogs don't have the plaque issue that humans do, and also have no known E toxicity level, even at high laboratory doses.

I wouldn't give any oil supplement without backup E. As Maren mentioned, E protects the PUFAs during the body's processing of them.

It won't always happen that the dog will become E-deficient from no E supplement provided with fish oil and other oils, but there's no known reason (for dogs) not to provide it.


_
ETA: I just started to answer the following elimination diet and egg makeup questions before remembering (again) that these are directed to Maren. This is great of you, Maren, too. Thank you! I'll remember that the thread is not addressed randomly. Just habit. _  _(Hey, I'm old. _:lol: _)_


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i would sure like to know what is the current "best" way to determine if a dog has a "food" (diet based) allergy....i have had more than one vet tell me it "may" be but have yet to find a definitive protocol on exactly how to isolate the "food" which is supposedly causing the allergic reaction, and i have always suspected it is not the "food" per se, but one or more ingredients that's in the food
- "switch to a different food and see if it works" doesn't cut it for me; i'm a bit more picky 
and i have heard all about some of the usual "suspects" (corn, wheat, beef, pork, etc) but have yet to find any definitive studies that confirm this either.....maybe other vets with more access to studies can point some out
thanx a bunch
- fwiw, i recently trained a whippet that came from another part of japan that had been "diagnosed" with a grass allergy, (skin rash/feet licking), but had no problems on the grass in my part of japan after i convinced the owners to give a raw diet a shot for a couple months


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ester C

I had an orthopedic vet go against giving it becuase he claimed it caused excessive joint remodeling. I know it is popular as a supplement. I believe primates and guinea pigs are the only animals requiring dietary vitamin C.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Complete inactivation of the avidin's biotin-binding takes 4 minutes in the shell (hard-cooked) or long enough cracked open into a skillet for the white to be firm (the yolk can stay runny).
> 
> That's what I generally do: cook them, a dozen or so at a time. Easy, fast.
> 
> ...


Would it matter what the chickens are fed? Recently my neighbor and I started a "self serve" honor stand to sell extra eggs from our chixs. I did a bit of research on the difference nutritionally between our eggs and eggs fed in commercial caged situations. There's quite a bit of difference in some areas (see little chart). Found on MotherEarth site.













NOTE:
I'm searching for it, Debbie. I know I saw the actual excerpt (not just reference to it, although there are plenty, but I now I can't find it. _Connie_


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Do you have a link to this study you could send me? I am behind the times and there is someone I would like to share this info with.






_
Mod note: I'm searching!_


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I first heard of this on that Dr. Joseph Mercola site, but it had no citation; I followed it up to the actual article.


I'm looking! I do remember his name: Dr. K. Sharma (PhD), and I think that it was in the_ Journal of Biological Chemistry._


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I first heard of this on that Dr. Joseph Mercola site, but it had no citation; I followed it up to the actual article.
> 
> 
> I'm looking! I do remember his name: Dr. K. Sharma (PhD), and I think that it was in the_ Journal of Biological Chemistry._



Maren, do you by chance have anything saved about this Bayer guy (Sharma, PhD) who published a research paper saying that the amount of biotin needed to exceed the binding properties of egg-white's avidin was far in excess of the amount actually available in the yolk?

I'm going crazy, finding a zillion references to it, but not the actual paper. But I _have_ seen the actual paper (or at least an excerpt) before, I think in the Journal of Biological Chemistry. :?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm striking out so far. Turned up a lot of scary biochemistry papers that make my eyes cross. Plus I joined the nutrition residents for their morning board review rounds and that really made my head almost explode with the biochemistry. ;-) Do you know what year? Or maybe give me the link to the source you saw it referenced.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm striking out so far. Turned up a lot of scary biochemistry papers that make my eyes cross. Plus I joined the nutrition residents for their morning board review rounds and that really made my head almost explode with the biochemistry. ;-) Do you know what year? Or maybe* give me the link to the source you saw it referenced*.


_"One of my raw food mentors convinced me that there was more than enough biotin in raw egg yolks to compensate for this problem, and I revised my previous recommendation to say that eating whole raw eggs would not pose a problem. This idea made sense to me as many wild animals consume raw eggs with no apparent problems. ... However, recently a subscriber, Dr. Sharma, PhD, who is a biochemist with Bayer, contacted me about this issue. His investigation into the matter revealed that there is not enough biotin in an egg yolk to bind to all the avidin present in the raw whites. He found that 5.7 grams of biotin are required to neutralize all the avidin found in the raw whites of an average-sized egg. There are only about 25 micrograms -- or 25 millionths of a gram -- of biotin in an average egg yolk."_ from http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/02/09/raw-eggs.aspx

_... studies showing that there is not enough biotin to bind ALL of the avidin .... _
from http://www.pets.ca/forum/archive/index.php/t-33947.html

_ ... 5.7 grams of biotin are required to neutralize all of the avidin found in the raw white of an average-sized egg. There are only about 25 micrograms ... _ from The Live Food Factor: The Comprehensive Guide to the Ultimate Diet by S. E. Schenck

_... the biotin in the yolks is not nearly enough to offset the avidin in the whites if you're eating a lot of raw eggs_ from http://www.dirtycarnivore.com/



And of course there are zillions of older sources saying that there is enough biotin in the yolk to make up for the avidin in the white.

And I'm sure that there are also zillions of egg-stealing canids who do fine without hauling their eggs back to the den for cooking. :lol:




But I've chosen to play it safe. It's so easy to cook up a big bunch of eggs. 8) Kind of a no-brainer, I thought.

I just wish I could find that article (from 2005, maybe?).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Would it matter what the chickens are fed?


Not for the avidin/biotin question, I don't think .... other good stuff, yes.


(Even if biotin could be increased via feed, I think that the extreme discrepancy claimed by this PhD researcher would be way beyond fixability via the chickens' feed.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

The biotin question might have buried this one about the strict elimination diet being the only accurate way to identify a food allergy in a dog:




rick smith said:


> i would sure like to know what is the current "best" way to determine if a dog has a "food" (diet based) allergy....i have had more than one vet tell me it "may" be but have yet to find a definitive protocol on exactly how to isolate the "food" which is supposedly causing the allergic reaction, and i have always suspected it is not the "food" per se, but one or more ingredients that's in the food
> - "switch to a different food and see if it works" doesn't cut it for me; i'm a bit more picky
> and i have heard all about some of the usual "suspects" (corn, wheat, beef, pork, etc) but have yet to find any definitive studies that confirm this either.....maybe other vets with more access to studies can point some out
> thanx a bunch
> - fwiw, i recently trained a whippet that came from another part of japan that had been "diagnosed" with a grass allergy, (skin rash/feet licking), but had no problems on the grass in my part of japan after i convinced the owners to give a raw diet a shot for a couple months


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## Kristin Jakubczak (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for the information! I'll stick to hard boiling them.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Thanks, how about the safety of processed pork as the number 1 food in dry dog food.


Finally got to ask this question today, Howard. Should be fine, as both some of the super premium foods (Fromm) and some of other foods out there have used pork and more commonly, pork liver or other by-products in their foods.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I want to know more about portions of protein v carbohydrates v fat. Particularly want to know about carbohydrates because some canid diets (wild prey, and some prey-model raw diets) are very, very low, but most kibbles are much higher. In what situations are the carbs benefitial to a dog? And what is the best source of carbs? Typically kibble is using grains (corn and rice) or potatoes.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

1. Are pancakes bad for dogs? My son feeds his left overs when no one is looking (except the dog)! 
2. Anything negative about Canidae Grain Free ALS kibble? 
Thanks.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Faisal, if the dog does okay eating an occasional pancake, like once a week or so, no biggie. I haven't heard a ton either way lately about Canidae. Seems the popularity dropped off when they were sold, but haven't heard much lately.

Bart, the only life stage where carbohydrates are required for dogs is late gestation and lactation. They did some studies where the litters did not do as well if the dam was not fed carbs. As far as performance dogs, dogs do a better job of fat oxidation than humans do, but unless you're training dogs for long distance dog sled racing or really long hunting trips, it's not really necessary to overload them on fats because they do fine with using glycogen stores for short term performance activities. They have done studies with greyhounds that find that sprint racing (and possibly other high high intensity but short duration activities like agility), the dogs will preferentially use carbohydrates over fats and proteins because the duration is so short. And that giving a carbohydrate-based meal after exertion is good to regain glycogen stores. For what kinds of carbs are "best," it may be helpful to do some reading on the glycemic index, beyond what the dog does best with. My sport dog does best with a low to moderate amount of carbs and yes, even grains, and is prone to loose stool without some grains in the diet. Hope that helps...


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