# Interested to watch Russia's future.



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I am very interested to see the development of Malinois in Russia as time goes by. Russia/Ukraine have a very big history with working dogs, and has a good culture for breeding and training. For the most part Russia has ahd a big affiliation with Black Russian Terriers, Ovacharkas, Giants, GSD's and Dobes and Rottis. Up to as late as 10-15 years ago Malinois were very, very rare, and the working people really didnt use them. The Police and Military used other breeds and not them. 
A friend of mine moved to Australia from the Ukraine about 12 years ago and he was a big time working guy. He was a Dobermann lover and a full time dog trainer, where he trained many dogs to ZKS, OKD KS titles and also Police/Military dogs. He recently went back to the Ukraine and Russia for a holiday and was very, very surprised with how so much had changed since he left. The Malinois was more and more popular, and their traditional breeds had got lesser. He also said that there was a big spit happening between the working and show people. Previously most people had worked towards the "golden middle" 
Now seeing this history with working dogs, the wealth that Russia has and the popularity of the Malinois getting better, I think they could do very interesting things with them. Oh, and theres over a 180 millions Russians/Ukrainans, which is as big as Holland, Belgium, France, Czech, Slovakia and Germany combined.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

They have had trouble in the past buying dogs. A friend of mine has had to help here and there. Decoys get paid big time to work dogs. You are right, it is gonna be interesting. : )


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

My young Malinois is a Russian import, from Moscow. 

His mother is actually an exported ot Vitosha dog, and his father is in Finland. I liked the litter, and shipping on Delta was VERY reasonable ($400 ish into LAX) There were some extra hoops to jump through getting him out of the country (for the breeder, special vet tests and permits) but she was able to get them done.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I am very interested to see the development of Malinois in Russia as time goes by. Russia/Ukraine have a very big history with working dogs, and has a good culture for breeding and training. For the most part Russia has ahd a big affiliation with Black Russian Terriers, Ovacharkas, Giants, GSD's and Dobes and Rottis.


Out of curiosity, what happened with the development of the Ovcharka and the Black Russian Terrier as working breeds? The Soviets seemed to be developing both for their own Police dogs, and I have heard people have both ends of the spectrum (i.e. "they are both great dogs" to "they are both a complete failure"). It'd be interesting that they develop these breeds only to fall back on the Mali. In Russia, are the Caucasian Ovcharka and Black Russian Terriers seen as a total wash as far as being developed as working dogs?



> Now seeing this history with working dogs, the wealth that Russia has and the popularity of the Malinois getting better, I think they could do very interesting things with them. Oh, and theres over a 180 millions Russians/Ukrainans, which is as big as Holland, Belgium, France, Czech, Slovakia and Germany combined.


Sounds like you've got some nice numbers there. They probably don't have some of the issues you'd have in the US and Eastern Europe to deal with so it might be kind of interesting to see what they do with developing their distinct lines of Malinois.

-Cheers


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

David Ruby said:


> Out of curiosity, what happened with the development of the Ovcharka and the Black Russian Terrier as working breeds? The Soviets seemed to be developing both for their own Police dogs, and I have heard people have both ends of the spectrum (i.e. "they are both great dogs" to "they are both a complete failure"). It'd be interesting that they develop these breeds only to fall back on the Mali. In Russia, are the Caucasian Ovcharka and Black Russian Terriers seen as a total wash as far as being developed as working dogs?


David, in a word, practicality, but there's basically two answers to your question.
The Ovcharkas were not used for person tracking or drug/bomb detection but for sentry and attack purposes. When the Russians were using them, there was a need for dogs of this character. Nowadays there isn't a necessity for dogs of this caliber and temperament due to the changes in how modern society functions as well as political correctness, to an extent. They still do use them widely as sentry dogs for factories and certain establishments.
Additionally, they found that the Ovcharkas weren't the best dog for the military as they would bond with one person. This wasn't practical for the military as they would bond and work with one person who, eventually, would leave and the dog couldn't be used (even trusted) with another handler.
Are they considered a wash? For a certain job, absolutely not. However, there are other breeds that are more practical for multi-utility applications.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Michelle Kutelis said:


> My young Malinois is a Russian import, from Moscow.
> 
> His mother is actually an exported ot Vitosha dog, and his father is in Finland. I liked the litter, and shipping on Delta was VERY reasonable ($400 ish into LAX) There were some extra hoops to jump through getting him out of the country (for the breeder, special vet tests and permits) but she was able to get them done.


Hey Michelle ;-) How's Jack doing? I remember him as a cute little pup with lots of character:smile: Doubt he's so little any more...but hoping he still has his attitude.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Out of curiosity, what happened with the development of the Ovcharka and the Black Russian Terrier as working breeds? The Soviets seemed to be developing both for their own Police dogs, and I have heard people have both ends of the spectrum (i.e. "they are both great dogs" to "they are both a complete failure"). It'd be interesting that they develop these breeds only to fall back on the Mali. In Russia, are the Caucasian Ovcharka and Black Russian Terriers seen as a total wash as far as being developed as working dogs?
> 
> -Cheers


I think historically the Russians bred for certain traits, such as size, aggression (Defence), courage, maybe even rage. They didnt care too much for prey or speed etc. So the BRT and Ovcarka's were big, defensive dogs, rather than athletic freaks. Obviously the Mali can offer some very important things that their native breeds couldnt. 
Also since the fall of the Iron Curtain there has been a tendancy for the Eastern countries to not value their own dogs, such as Czech has done with the GSD's. They have bred away from their own GSD lines and the Malinois has really gained big time with the working folks. 
Russians are very different people to Western Europeans, they have far more of a "macho" male image and I would imagine they will like a bit more of a serious edge on their dogs.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks for the answer Kris.



Kris Finison said:


> David, in a word, practicality, but there's basically two answers to your question.
> The Ovcharkas were not used for person tracking or drug/bomb detection but for sentry and attack purposes. When the Russians were using them, there was a need for dogs of this character. Nowadays there isn't a necessity for dogs of this caliber and temperament due to the changes in how modern society functions as well as political correctness, to an extent. They still do use them widely as sentry dogs for factories and certain establishments.


Thanks. I know this breed has been hotly debated and being a LGD it made sense they'd function differently than a herder. However I always wondered how they did on-the-job since if they sucked I found it unlikely the Russians would use a/o develop them further. Your last part would also seem to explain why they have allegedly moved on, so to say, at least in part.



> Additionally, they found that the Ovcharkas weren't the best dog for the military as they would bond with one person. This wasn't practical for the military as they would bond and work with one person who, eventually, would leave and the dog couldn't be used (even trusted) with another handler.


That would kind of make sense considering the nature of the breed type and original purpose of the dogs.



> Are they considered a wash? For a certain job, absolutely not. However, there are other breeds that are more practical for multi-utility applications.


How about the BRT though? The combination of Rottweilers, Giant Schnauzers, and Airedale Terriers (there were others, but these are commonly cited as three of the main component breeds) would seem to make for a fairly utilitarian working dog, at least on paper, since all three have a history as Police/Military working dogs and the rest of the breeds cited seem to have working backgrounds or utilitarian reasons for being included in the breed creation. Of course, if there is a switch to Malinois, how successful have the BRTs been, and why the switch now (or whenever, not sure if the BRTs are still widely used in Russia and the rest of the former Soviet Union or not)?

-Cheers

**Edit: Christopher answered my question in large part, apparently while I was typing this.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

It's my understanding that the BRT was a flop due to the fact that they mature very, very slow; possibly up to 3.5 to 4 years... So you have a big dog that doesn't live long and matures slow = a dog you dont get much working life span. BRT's are still used, but they also use, mals, GSD's, labs and a few others too; BRt's I think are the minority.


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## Anna Van Kovn (Aug 24, 2009)

BRT is a very large dog and not a very popular choice of working dog. However, Russian have some programs for ovcharka and BRT - "guard dog program". Russian still have OKD and ZKS, couple programs for personal protections, "Russian ring", and of course IPO and SchH. 
Okd and ZKS are old programs and still popular in rural areas where IPO and SchH training not avalable. "Guard program" is popular among ovcharka and BRT. Personal protection and Russian ring among all working breed but pitbulls, American bulldogs, am. staffs, mali, gsd, giant schnauzers - are popular choices . GSD is a first choice for SchH and IPO. However, mali becoming more and more popular. Russian start training for mondio ring. Mostly malinua, but couple gsd and airdele in Ukraine. There no FR in Russia yet. There some of interest in mondio ring and FR. However, people doesn't know a lot about these programs . Mostly, people refer to mondio and FR dogs as "prey dog". Russian love aggression in dogs and working in prey it is sign of weakness.
http://security-dog.org/dressura/chempion/2008/gorenka/index.html


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Anna Van Kovn said:


> . Mostly, people refer to mondio and FR dogs as "prey dog". Russian love aggression in dogs and working in prey it is sign of weakness.


 Which is why its going to be interesting to see what they do with the breed. I just hope they dont forget about nerve.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Have the russians done anything special with the other working breeds, rotts,GSDs, dobes and so on, if not, why would the mal be any different? Are there for example russian lines of working GSDs?


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## Vdovichenko Galina (Jun 10, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> Have the russians done anything special with the other working breeds, rotts,GSDs, dobes and so on, if not, why would the mal be any different?


Im sorry, what do you mean "Anything special"? I try to understand this and try to ask you 



> Are there for example russian lines of working GSDs?


Most of russian working GSD is imported dogs (Czech, Germany, Netherlands...) And I cant said that there is some "working breeding" in Russia... There is few breeders that made litters. And a sportsmans are increasingly prefer to import GSD from other contries.

*Im sorry for my English, Im really try to explain all right. ](*,)


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> Have the russians done anything special with the other working breeds, rotts,GSDs, dobes and so on, if not, why would the mal be any different? Are there for example russian lines of working GSDs?


I believe they bred their own version of a German Shepherd after WW2 called a "Eastern European Shepherd", which is a bigger version with different colours to a GSD. It was supposed to have been bred down from GSD's taken back from Germany after WW2. My Ukrainian friend was showing some Russian working dog books where there was pictures of them, also some pictures of them as Prison dogs. He has worked hundreds of them in his time in Russia/Ukraine and he was saying they were more aggressive than the GSD's.
Maybe the people in Russia now can give a little more info on them.


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## Anna Van Kovn (Aug 24, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I believe they bred their own version of a German Shepherd after WW2 called a "Eastern European Shepherd", which is a bigger version with different colours to a GSD. It was supposed to have been bred down from GSD's taken back from Germany after WW2. My Ukrainian friend was showing some Russian working dog books where there was pictures of them, also some pictures of them as Prison dogs. He has worked hundreds of them in his time in Russia/Ukraine and he was saying they were more aggressive than the GSD's.
> Maybe the people in Russia now can give a little more info on them.


Back to Soviet Union time , in "cold war" time all we had it was DDR lines. Almost all dogs were imported from East German. GSD, giant schnauzers , aidele terriers. - all DDR bloodline.
Beside that they have their own gsd- they called them "vostochnoevropeyskaya ovcharka". Officially it was gsd but it was like different breed. Very large massive dogs.
In late 80 and 90 they start to import dogs from West. First West German bloodlines comes from Hungary. It was show bloodlines. They were very different from dogs we already had. However, nobody divided breed on working and show. They bred what they had to show line Hungarian import. 
At that point there wasn't possible to find a pedigree with only DDR dogs. They were all mixed with showline dogs.
Then they start to import dogs directly from Germany. It was all show dogs. When IPO and SchH program started developed in Russia they become more interested in working bloodlines. They imported several dogs with working bloodlines from Germany, Finland and etc. 
Now, working and show bloodline separate like in all over the world. However, Ink Zoterhund is a good example of Russian or Ukranian breeding working dogs. In his pedigree you can find Hungarian dogs, DDR, West german bloodlines. Actually, Ink is a Ukrainian dog. (we all speak Russian)


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## Anna Van Kovn (Aug 24, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> Have the russians done anything special with the other working breeds, rotts,GSDs, dobes and so on, if not, why would the mal be any different? Are there for example russian lines of working GSDs?


Dobermann , rotts, giant shnauzers - you can see them all training. What is interesting that even pure show line dogs still attempt work in IPO. Not with a very high results but they do. Russian had giant schnauzer and dobie on their IPO team this year. Lex it is any import from Hazbachtal - working giant schnauzer kennel in Germany.


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## Vdovichenko Galina (Jun 10, 2009)

This is how "working" Giant Shnauzers in Russia. 
"Best protection work" at the National Show - Working class dogs. Most of this dogs have working sert. At other breeds - Dobes, rotties, GSD it is the same picture ](*,)



http://photofile.ru/users/leraboitsova/video/v81781930e1/view/


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## Anna Van Kovn (Aug 24, 2009)

Vdovichenko Galina said:


> This is how "working" Giant Shnauzers in Russia.
> "Best protection work" at the National Show - Working class dogs. Most of this dogs have working sert. At other breeds - Dobes, rotties, GSD it is the same picture ](*,)
> 
> 
> ...


Galina,
I seen this video but there a lot of more giant schnauzers who work and not participated on the National Dog Show. 
This is video of pure show line giant schnauzer.
http://www.youtube.com/user/kontikk2009#p/u/4/hh-L7-joxpU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJaGwegFB7o&feature=PlayList&p=7E1DD259418702AA&index=1


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## Vdovichenko Galina (Jun 10, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I believe they bred their own version of a German Shepherd after WW2 called a "Eastern European Shepherd", which is a bigger version with different colours to a GSD. It was supposed to have been bred down from GSD's taken back from Germany after WW2. My Ukrainian friend was showing some Russian working dog books where there was pictures of them, also some pictures of them as Prison dogs. He has worked hundreds of them in his time in Russia/Ukraine and he was saying they were more aggressive than the GSD's.
> Maybe the people in Russia now can give a little more info on them.


Some time Eastern European Shephed (VEO) remainded only history. There were some dogs, and just one or two breeders. 
Next came fashion "open" lost breeds and call it "exclusive". And some owners have begun work with the VEO. VEO crossed with show GSD, but often GSD dont have any working abilities. And begun a new generation of large, wet dog with awful limbs. And very cowardly, unable to hold the load, both physical and in the work. 
But breeders held a very strong advertising, a lot of dogs shown at the exhibitions. Gradually VEO become just a show dog. 
At this time appeared a lot of strong dogs with the correct anatomy, physically strong and with good working qualities.

This is the video of the working class at the some show. Different dogs, different work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmQzogWdf6w&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnd8i4B5xPw&feature=channel


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## Vdovichenko Galina (Jun 10, 2009)

Anna Van Kovn said:


> Galina,
> I seen this video but there a lot of more giant schnauzers who work and not participated on the National Dog Show.
> This is video of pure show line giant schnauzer.
> http://www.youtube.com/user/kontikk2009#p/u/4/hh-L7-joxpU
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJaGwegFB7o&feature=PlayList&p=7E1DD259418702AA&index=1


Anna, of course and I really happy that we have such breeders and sportsmans. But there are a very popular breeds in Russia, but at competitions we see just only a few bart of Russian dogs.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I meant more if russia have their own workinglines of GSDs or dobes for example, that have been breed in russia many generations in russian type of workingtrials and tests. Ink v zoterhund is more an example of german breeding with so many german dogs upp close. By the way, do you have any description or rules for ZDK, or ODK or what the name was now again

I thought maybe russia had breed GSDs for other use than IPO/SCH, just like you can find GSDs in sweden that have been breed many generations but not for IPO, because that sport didn´t come here untill early 90s or so, because it was so hard to travel outside the borders due to quarantine-rules. Like this dog, many generations with just mainly swedish breed dogs,

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/432496.html


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## Anna Van Kovn (Aug 24, 2009)

Nope.. they didn't use them for anything different then traditional work. I titled 20 years ago couple of different dogs in OKD and ZKS. Since that time program has been changed .
What I remember is:
OKD is obedience program .ZKS is protection program. Yu can be awarded 1, 2 or 3rd depend of the score in the programs. fROM 90-100 -1; 80-90 -2; 70-80-3RD.
Obedience program is some mix of IPO and AKC obedience with more difficult jumps. Palisade it is same like in FR. Heeling , change of positions, retrieve, jumps.But not precise like in IPO.
ZKS is scent elimination, object guard. Face atack, escape. In old time we use bite suite. Now they use sleeves .


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## Vdovichenko Galina (Jun 10, 2009)

With my English its hard to say what i want ti say ... I can talk with you about OKD, ZKS, but it will be better if you ask some questions about it.  * I hope, later i will have more opportunity to ask in English....


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## Astrea Wind (Oct 16, 2009)

There were 3 Zoterhund dogs on the WMs this year - Ink, Omar and Lytiy.
More info is here
http://www.zoter.org.ua/dogs.html
but most od these dogs have German or Holland parents.


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