# hip displasia



## Sandra Applegate

I have a four month old Great Dane puppy from a reputable breeder. His littermate was diagnosed with hip displasia last week. They have sense neutered and preformed surgery on the pup. I saw him three weeks ago and he looked loose in the rear is all, but thats just me. no bunny hopping, feet shuffling or pain shown. I do not know the degree of displasia. I am having the breeder forward me the medical reports. Maybe he would just OFA poor Im not sure. I also dont know if she got a second opinion. 

My pup was purchased as a conformation show dog/possible breeding. I have followed this line for 12+ years. Have had other dogs from this line with no hip problems and the pedigree on the pup is OFA clear for 5+ generations both sides. Tightly line bred, pick puppy, litter of 9. Several other puppy owners are doing Penn hip now.

Big breath here........

My questions are.... should I be concerned? more so than the obvious. Should I penn hip or do prelimanary x rays? nutrition or supplement advice? I have him on Precise adult chicken foundation 24% protein, keeping him lean, 2000-3000 mg Vit C (working on tightening up his front feet) and yogurt. Free exercise ect...... 
Is this a fluke? or more? 

Ask away....... and any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Carol Boche

Who read the x-rays on the other pup? 

I don't know much about HD, are they really testing pups that young????


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## Sandra Applegate

The pup was showing some weakness/looseness in the rear so the owner (also the breeder) took pup in to her regular vet for x rays. I do not know if the pup was refilmed by the ortho specialist that preformed the surgery. I dont know what type of surgery it was except that it had to be preformed before 16 weeks of age. I am wondering if she jumped the gun, paniced or what exactly. It almost sounds as if she was pressured to do the surgery because of the age factor.
The breeder of this pup kept him and the one that I ended up purchasing. They let the pick puppy go because the other was a heart and soul puppy.


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## Anna Kasho

I believe pennhip can be done starting at 16 weeks. They can also perform JPS at 16-20 weeks, where the bottom suture in the pelvis is cauterised, so that it stops growing and the top grows out more and gives better coverage in the hip joints.

Then again I've heard some bad stories of pups/dogs being injured during pennhip, because it's done under tension while the dog is sedated. I don't know if I'd choose to do it in such a young pup. An OFA style x-ray can be done without sedation, but some pups may look more loose in the hips and then tighten up as they grow...


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## Carol Boche

Anna Kasho said:


> but some pups may look more loose in the hips and then tighten up as they grow...



This is exactly my thoughts on the whole thing....let the puppy grow up some and see what happens......unless they are in severe pain or something like that.


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## Maureen A Osborn

When you do a tight line breeding remember it can(and will) bring out the hidden bad and good in that line. There are no 100% guarantees when breeding OFA clear dogs to OFA clear dogs, it is genetics also and it is like rolling the dice either way. IMHO, HD is both genetic and environmental....I would watch the calcium to phosporus ratio, check out the dog food, the ratio should be no more than 1.2 : 1
I wouldn't feed the yogurt because it will through off the calciumhosporus ratio and can cause bone problems. Vit C is good, I would add in Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM also. I would also get him xrayed
http://ezinearticles.com/?Canine-Hip-Dysplasia---Symptoms,-Treatment-and-Surgery&id=152230

Good luck!


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## Maren Bell Jones

Anna's right, 5 months is about the cutoff to do JPS surgery. It's a pretty new technique, but for pups with mild to moderate hip dysplasia, it seems to be helpful from the studies I've read and relatively inexpensive compared to total hip replacement. Time will tell for long term prognosis as the dog ages. One school of thought nutritionally is to not get really aggressive with supplementation with glucosamine/chondroitin/etc when the pup is young because it has not been shown to be chondroprotective of the joints until after clinical signs have already appeared. I need to do some more reading in the literature on the subject to catch myself up though. If I hear any new pearls of wisdom, I'll pass them on. :wink:


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## Sandra Applegate

JPS must be the surgery the breeder had preformed. I know the first two initials are correct and the age factor sounds about right. 

Anna It scares me to think of what a 16 week old Great Dane would turn out like after having this done. Of course these pups are from the largest lines in Danes as well.. males reaching 38-39" at the withers. My boy at 16 weeks is a mere 25". This line also matures slowly, often times with the males adding that last inch between 30-36 months of age. To stop the growth of part of the pelvis at 16 weeks? I can not even think of how this boy will turn out. 

I OFA'd the bitch I have now at 2 yrs of age without sedation and was very pleased with how the specialists handled her. Of course she is a very co operatvie bitch. I was also pleased with her results. We xrayed 6 weeks before her first heat cycle and she was graded a good. Her sire was excellent and I often think how she would have done if tested between her cycles. One of the bitch puppies of this litter is being penn hip on Monday. I have good communication with her owner and she has already written me to say she will be happy to share the results. 

None of the other 8 puppies from this litter are showing signs of trouble. My thoughts are to possibly have my own pup xrayed before I put him in the ring. I dont want to waste time or money showing if he has a problem. One that is obvious on x ray that is. I also agree about stressing the pup out mentally and physically doing the penn hip. I am not willing to harm my pup in this way.

I am also wondering if some of this is not enviromental or nutritional. I do not like what the breeder is feeding. I know most of the puppy owners of this litter feed other things and had switched over some time ago. I also do not put Dane puppies on tile flooring 100%, these were except for outside play time and pottying. 

At this time I am agreeing with the sit and watch approach. If I see some troubling signs I will xray, otherwise I will wait until we are ready to actively show in the ring. 

Thank you all for you help and links. Please do let me know if you find out anything else that may be of value to me and my pup.


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## Nicole Stark

Sandra Applegate said:


> My thoughts are to possibly have my own pup xrayed before I put him in the ring. I dont want to waste time or money showing if he has a problem.


That being the case, x ray him now (or in the near future) and take it from there. I x rayed one of my dogs at 7 months and later again at two when I spayed her and can tell you first hand the difference between the two was very minimal.


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## Don Turnipseed

:-# :-# :-# :-#


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## Terrasita Cuffie

You can do OFA prelims at 20 weeks. For me, once I take pup home its keeper. If you would return the pup due to dysplasia, then x-ray and get it over with. Its polygenic and you never know how the genes will mix up. Each puppy can be prevented. As for the studies, Belfields Vit C study comes to mind. Regardless of OFA certification, we do supplements [C & E from puppyhood] and I start the glucosamine/chondroitin usually around Age 3-5. With a large breed pup, there are the environmental concerns. There's a great site--"the great dane lady" that's good for info.


Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

:-# :-# :-# :-#
One poster commented about tight linebreeding bringing on the bad with the good. I think the OP said the previous parentage for 5 generations back would all great. How about the pups?


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## Nancy Jocoy

What is the current insight on that vitamin c study?

I had an orthopedic vet specialist [I have one dog severely dysplastic who was both rawfed and given Ester C as a puppy] the vet was not concerned about the raw diet when I explained how it was put together, but said that excess vitamin C can cause too much bone remodeling 

Heading out to the gym but found something on this using a quick search that supports what the ortho vet told me (See paragraph a about halfway down the page)

http://www.dogstuff.info/hd_in_growing_dogs_shmon.html


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nancy Jocoy said:


> What is the current insight on that vitamin c study?
> 
> I had an orthopedic vet specialist [I have one dog severely dysplastic who was both rawfed and given Ester C as a puppy] the vet was not concerned about the raw diet when I explained how it was put together, but said that excess vitamin C can cause too much bone remodeling
> 
> Heading out to the gym but found something on this using a quick search that supports what the ortho vet told me (See paragraph a about halfway down the page)
> 
> http://www.dogstuff.info/hd_in_growing_dogs_shmon.html


Actually, this article is based on her opinions without any really supportive scientific facts or citations. She did not say that "excess Vitamin C can cause too much bone remodeling." She said "*Unfortunately, research has shown that Vitamin C adversely affects a dog's calcium balance, so it may actually increase the risk of some bone diseases, including hip dysplasia. *
She doesn't say how much or address the issue of what the body excretes or what form. Calcium supplementation particularly out of balance to the phosphorus is a known problem. Raw and Ester C as a puppy as a cause of dysplasia without addressing the genetic factor is a stretch. How does he know? I've been supplementing ours for the last 25 years [corgi, bouv, GSD] and with genetic selection for good hips, we haven't had a dysplastic one since. The dog that was a genetic case for dysplasia was dysplastic in all four extremities and nothing helped it. Didn't know about Adequan then. The article cited shows her bias towards commercial dog food. 

With the great dane puppy, you can do serial x-rays and maintain a good environmental program. Every thing else is pure supposition. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Each puppy can be prevented.
> 
> Terrasita


Shoulda said, "each puppy can be different."


T


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## Nancy Jocoy

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually, this article is based on her opinions without any really supportive scientific facts or citations. She did not say that "excess Vitamin C can cause too much bone remodeling." She said "*Unfortunately, research has shown that Vitamin C adversely affects a dog's calcium balance, so it may actually increase the risk of some bone diseases, including hip dysplasia. *
> She doesn't say how much or address the issue of what the body excretes or what form. Calcium supplementation particularly out of balance to the phosphorus is a known problem. Raw and Ester C as a puppy as a cause of dysplasia without addressing the genetic factor is a stretch. How does he know? I've been supplementing ours for the last 25 years [corgi, bouv, GSD] and with genetic selection for good hips, we haven't had a dysplastic one since. The dog that was a genetic case for dysplasia was dysplastic in all four extremities and nothing helped it. Didn't know about Adequan then. The article cited shows her bias towards commercial dog food.
> 
> With the great dane puppy, you can do serial x-rays and maintain a good environmental program. Every thing else is pure supposition.
> 
> Terrasita


----

That paritcular article was just a quick google search [as stated] on my part. I do not know on what basis the orthopedic specialist vet stated his concern to me about vitamin C other than "extensive remodeling." He just did state that and that was his area of expertise.


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## Carol Boche

I am trying to find the articles I have on Vit C and the benefits....I wonder of Sarah Mandler has them as I know she gives it to her boy for his mild HD......

I know Connie would have them......


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## Don Turnipseed

I have a female that mom was laying on her back end. She had a very pronounced bunny hop o after a while I started giving her 1000 mg ester c daily. Her hips are still screwed up but she moves and runs like a normal dog....as long as I keep her on it. More anecdotal evidence to go along with the genhetic "theory" of hip dispaysia....because at this point it is theory and as far as I am concerned it belongs right up there with ENS.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don:

All you've said is that the Ester C improved function. What do you mean by "her hips are still screwed up?" How will you know about genetics until you implement an x-ray program with your dogs? 

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don:
> 
> All you've said is that the Ester C improved function. What do you mean by "her hips are still screwed up?" How will you know about genetics until you implement an x-ray program with your dogs?
> 
> Terrasita


I mean if I take her off the Ester C she will go back to the bunny hopping.

As far as an exray program goes, go back and read the previous posts. Even 5 generations of great hips proves nothing Terrasita. You can have great hips and produce dysplastic dogs. You can have dysplastic dogs and produce dogs that are dysplasia free. I think all you folks are chasing your tails in a circle. Obviously exrays mean squat. You can come and pick any dog in the yard and have it OFA'd...outside of the one female and they will be fine. It was done once. What is better than exrays? Work the dogs and prove them. They got the hips for it or they don't. I have seen it said right here on this board, folks have dogs that are exrayed dysplastic and worked all their life without a problem while others that exrayed good couldn't do the work. In view of all this, I can't buy into the polygenic cloak that researchers are hiding under right now. They are using polygenic as a reason for having HD free parents and getting HD pups and the reverse of the same. I think your being had for the most part.


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## Don Turnipseed

My beliefs about HD are my own. Getting back to the original post. I could not believe what I was reading. At 4 mo exrayed neutered and surgury. I truly think some people have totally taken leave of their senses. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> My beliefs about HD are my own. Getting back to the original post. I could not believe what I was reading. At 4 mo exrayed neutered and surgury. I truly think some people have totally taken leave of their senses. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.


Is that science for you ?? Or is it... ??

I find it quite bizarre... I'm sure it is something not quite right somewhere.


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## Sandra Applegate

I want to thank you all for your advice and links. I will be sure to check them out. I will see how the other puppy owners that are doing Penn hip turn out and most likely do the sit and wait approach on my own pup. I see no red flags in him at this time. thanks once again.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> I mean if I take her off the Ester C she will go back to the bunny hopping.
> 
> As far as an exray program goes, go back and read the previous posts. Even 5 generations of great hips proves nothing Terrasita. You can have great hips and produce dysplastic dogs. You can have dysplastic dogs and produce dogs that are dysplasia free. I think all you folks are chasing your tails in a circle. Obviously exrays mean squat. You can come and pick any dog in the yard and have it OFA'd...outside of the one female and they will be fine. It was done once. What is better than exrays? Work the dogs and prove them. They got the hips for it or they don't. I have seen it said right here on this board, folks have dogs that are exrayed dysplastic and worked all their life without a problem while others that exrayed good couldn't do the work. In view of all this, I can't buy into the polygenic cloak that researchers are hiding under right now. They are using polygenic as a reason for having HD free parents and getting HD pups and the reverse of the same. I think your being had for the most part.


 
Don,

How much work and hunting do you do with your dogs that proves the degree of function hip-wise. You use work to determine the HD. Others may use x-rays. What's the difference. Worked all their life how? I've had a dog that worked for three years after she was diagnosed and then became symptomatic and unable to work at 5. If I followed your premise, I would've said she was work capable therefore hip/elbow sound. Wouldn't have held up. Whether the dog is symptomatic vs. not is not the point. You can cull based on the dogs in your yard, but do you have any information based on significant numbers of the puppies produced? There is at least one in your yard that you think is not hip sound based on gait function so those that work produce those that physically cant. What has she produced? Does that make your system any more valuable? By your information both x-rayed dogs and dogs that can function based on work produce unsound. 

Functionality with HD is dependent on a variety of things which can include the degree of sound ligamentation, muscle, structure, etc. So you may luck out with a dog that can function in spite of it. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sandra Applegate said:


> I want to thank you all for your advice and links. I will be sure to check them out. I will see how the other puppy owners that are doing Penn hip turn out and most likely do the sit and wait approach on my own pup. I see no red flags in him at this time. thanks once again.


Welcome to the world of genetic/polygenic/x-ray vs. environmental/work determines function. Incidentally, what is the height/weight of a typical 4 month old great dane puppy?

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

Terrasita, I also said that the female in question had mom laying oin her rear end and was sqalling so I checked on her. Cause....environmental. Yes, she has whelped a number of litters. BlackJack and Coyboy being two of them.
Question for you Terrasita. Do you think, in this day and age, most people that buy a dog would call me and tell me the dog was diagnosed with bad hips??? Of course they would and I have had people do it. Some of them I had the exrays sent and had them checked out. Always turned out to be Pano. Considering I may have had in the neighborhood of 200 litters having only exrayed one dog at 6 years old, would you think that may work better than exrays??? Considering you can have all dogs exrayed good and they can still throw HD and vis-a versa. Think about this. You can have all good exrays and still have it. You can have crap exrays and throw HD free. What good is an exray???? What is worse than the waste of money is the fact that it has lead generation after generation of dog owners down the primrose path. On the other hand, black and white, a group of dogs can run twenty miles in front of a truck, up hill and down and still be able to get up in the morning.....or it can't. Black and white. No grey matter. Lets not forget that these dogs are extremely tightly bred, which at one time they also said was causing HD. The cause has kept shifting for years...now they have the mother lode of excuses, "it's polygenic". That one will keep them going for years.


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## Don Turnipseed

Just as a side note Terrasita, The female with the bad hips was sired by the 6 year old that was tested and tested good.....but regardless of that, the cause was enviromental.

At any rate terrasita, I believe we are just beating the proverbial dead horse here and wasting a lot of time. You=r entrenched in what you think and have spent a lot of money for that belief. I have spent zip for mine and will continue believing it also.


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## maggie fraser

If one feels the need to neuter and xray at 4 months old.. What is wrong !!

Why would anyone want to breed super tall great danes ? What is wrong with you?? Why would you want one?? What is wrong with you??


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## Don Turnipseed

Personally, I like the big harlequins. Awesome looking beasts. I think the danes are offshoots of pig dogs.


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## maggie fraser

Hey, nothing quite like a blue now, is there ?? Not even funny.


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## Don Turnipseed

Oh yes, the blues are beautiful also as are the blue wiems. Seems I heard something about that blue pigmentation though. Something about recessives. Sure wouldn't want to tighten the linebreeding on those babies up!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don:

As you wrote, she has a mother. I recall the stud that that an outside breeder wanted to use and you allowed her to x-ray to ease her mind. That's one x-rayed dog. I know you think its environmental. It can happen. But unless you x-ray them, how do you know WHAT it is. I don't spend a lot of money as I look at it. I think the last dog I did, I spent less than $150 for x-rays hips/elbows and that included OFA. Look at what the price is of a dog. For me an x-ray to know what I have is a drop in the bucket. I don't want to guess and I certainly don't want to find it out after years of training and work. None of us other than Jennifer/Jaeger have the luxury of a 10 generation closed intensely inbred gene pool mostly culled for work ability upon which to base the work determinant theory. With the OP's situation, I think people need to understand the personal basis of your environmental theory. There are a lot of people out there that proclaim I don't have to x-ray because based on the work I do, the dogs wouldn't be able to work if they had bad hips. People don't know to ask--what work and for how long. Its not uncommon not to have to make the surgery decision on a 4-5 month old dog based on severe hip dysplasia; especially with what I call the massive breeds. Some of them have rates of 50% or more. If its not genetic, what environmental factors are at play here?

Its pretty established that selection for good hips lessens the incidence of hip dysplasia. The more baby and bathwater theory you employ in your program, the more risk for pitiful hips you get. Its the breeders' decision and let the buyer be ware. We can't clone and its about reducing the incidence and risk. That's all you can do with selective breeding on anything that isn't DNA controlled. Very few breeding programs out there are based on the work determinant theory. Then you have to determine what work as the determinant. Dogs with heart can out function their body. I still remember the last day with my 10 year old GSD Teva. I could see the pain in her eyes around the house. She limped and the pain medication was doing anything. I could feel there was something not quite right about her pelvis. The morning of the vet appointment, she took off across the yard and appeared to be moving sound. My husband asked me whether I was sure she wasn't okay. Told him, no I was still taking her into the vet and basically she thought I was going to the farm and was thinking about livestock, not how she felt--hence the smooth gait and now upbeat attitude. The x-ray result: huge pelvic osteosarcoma mass. 

Okay, horse whipping done.

Terrasita


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## maggie fraser

I had a great dane before....what's the scoop on the gastric troubles?? On my personal experience, if they can make it past two years old they're in the running. Shame they don't live so long!!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> Terrasita, I also said that the female in question had mom laying oin her rear end and was sqalling so I checked on her. Cause....environmental. Yes, she has whelped a number of litters. BlackJack and Coyboy being two of them.
> Question for you Terrasita. Do you think, in this day and age, most people that buy a dog would call me and tell me the dog was diagnosed with bad hips??? Of course they would and I have had people do it. Some of them I had the exrays sent and had them checked out. Always turned out to be Pano.
> 
> *Sad day, that they have a vet that doesn't know the difference between panosteitis and HD.*
> 
> Considering I may have had in the neighborhood of 200 litters having only exrayed one dog at 6 years old, would you think that may work better than exrays???
> 
> *200 litters and 1 x-ray doesn't tell me much. Pet people generally don't x-ray. A few stay in touch. Who knows severity level, rate, etc. How often do we hear, "ohhhh I'm HD free because I haven't had calls to return dogs and the questionable ones turned out to be something else." My dog was 5 years old before she was symptomatic. When I x-rayed her at Age 2 she could run, jump and fly with the best of them. Awesome dog covering stock in the pasture and awesome on large flocks of 100+. Then one day at age 5, she couldn't cover them in a 100 x 200 arena. *
> 
> Considering you can have all dogs exrayed good and they can still throw HD and vis-a versa. Think about this. You can have all good exrays and still have it. You can have crap exrays and throw HD free. What good is an exray????
> 
> *Don, its simple. Confirms one way or the other whether you have it, considering competence in taking them and reading them.* *If you have a breeding program, you're right---one x-ray isn't going to tell you much. A few generations of selection based on x-rays, might tell you alot. Its the same as what you propose as several generations based on the type of work and environment you raise and keep yours in. Most people don't have that work/environment determinant. Enter breeding based on x-rays, etc. *
> 
> What is worse than the waste of money is the fact that it has lead generation after generation of dog owners down the primrose path. On the other hand, black and white, a group of dogs can run twenty miles in front of a truck, up hill and down and still be able to get up in the morning.....or it can't. Black and white. No grey matter. Lets not forget that these dogs are extremely tightly bred, which at one time they also said was causing HD. The cause has kept shifting for years...now they have the mother lode of excuses, "it's polygenic". That one will keep them going for years.


*Don, I've been at this for at least 25 years and the cause hasn't shifted. With those that utilzed the x-ray system, I've seen improvement. When you began your program, did any dogs fail the 20 mile truck test? At what age do you first take them out for the diagnostic run. I wonder how many AD dogs [12 miles] are also hip sound. Anyone with a breeding clue, knows that tightly bred doesn't cause dysplasia unless you tightly bred on dysplasia. You'll agree that you have been able to control certain factors on a tightly bred gene pool but suggest that HD can't be based on genetics. Regardless to each's own and most don't have that tightly bred/truck tested gene pool to hang their hat on.*

*Terrasita*


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> Terrasita, I also said that the female in question had mom laying oin her rear end and was sqalling so I checked on her. Cause....environmental. Yes, she has whelped a number of litters. BlackJack and Coyboy being two of them.
> Question for you Terrasita. Do you think, in this day and age, most people that buy a dog would call me and tell me the dog was diagnosed with bad hips??? Of course they would and I have had people do it. Some of them I had the exrays sent and had them checked out. Always turned out to be Pano. Considering I may have had in the neighborhood of 200 litters having only exrayed one dog at 6 years old, would you think that may work better than exrays??? Considering you can have all dogs exrayed good and they can still throw HD and vis-a versa. Think about this. You can have all good exrays and still have it. You can have crap exrays and throw HD free. What good is an exray???? What is worse than the waste of money is the fact that it has lead generation after generation of dog owners down the primrose path. On the other hand, black and white, a group of dogs can run twenty miles in front of a truck, up hill and down and still be able to get up in the morning.....or it can't. Black and white. No grey matter. Lets not forget that these dogs are extremely tightly bred, which at one time they also said was causing HD. The cause has kept shifting for years...now they have the mother lode of excuses, "it's polygenic". That one will keep them going for years.


Don first let me say I also find you input interesting and with some merit.

However it's not necessarily because people as a rule are lazy. More often then not don't do the hip checks for several reasons time, money, breeder told them it wasn't necessary, I've never had a problem, the list goes on, on. Besides why would a puppy buyer check when breeder didn't.

Here's my little story, I have a moderate dysplastic dog who does bite work, jumps, chases birds, rabbits and laser lights. And I knew it when he was a mere 5-6 mos old. How you ask...you could literally watch the femoral heads movein and out of the sockets as he moved around or as he shifted his weight. Let me also add that during that time he was very active leaping over (clearing it ) couch and other such stuff. 

At 10 mos old had him Penn-hipped and he came back .50/.50 (below the median for my breed) and moderate. Vet told me I don't how he is walking!!! i asked about the looseness and he said that hips did tighten up but only because of the calcium build up in the socket in an effort to stabilize the hip joint. Just the body's way of protecting itself.

Many people in my breed believe the way you do Don...the natural dog theory and while it does have some merit I think it is a poor way to select for better hip structure. The premise is to let the work load weed out the the poor hips except that it doesn't . It only weeds out the dogs who have a low pain tolerance, a weak muscular stature and obvious CHD. Leaving the genetic code for CHD intact but much more subtle.

I have done a lot of studying with regard to CHD and my breed as 40%-45% of them are dysplastic, actually have a four inch binder full of information regarding family of dogs I wish to work with. Terrasita and I have had many, many discussions about weighting the pros and cons. 

The OFA / Pennhip results are only helpful or beneficial if one the breeder has done homework with regard to the other members of their chosen line and are honest about what the results have revealed.

Inbreeding in and of itself doesn't cause CHD and I think good, well informed breeders know this. However it can if the breeder fails to do their homework. Because their basing decisions on partial information. When dealing with a high risk breed like ABs you need as much of the full picture what's behind the breeding stock as possible. I could show you examples of what I'm talking but that would require outting several kennels and that I won't do.

Bottomline everyone is free to do as they chose however you are either helping or hindering you breed of choice depending on the path you choose to walk.


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## Lynda Myers

Oh though I: would post Rook's x-ray...remember these were taking at 10 mos old. You will notice that the left hip is worst then the right. The Vet did tell that as a breed ABs hold up better then some of the other breeds because of the heavy muscle they tend to carry.
Terrasita I know see this always make you wince!


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## jamie lind

"especially with what I call the massive breeds. Some of them have rates of 50% or more. If its not genetic, what environmental factors are at play here?"

how can u say this has to be genetic? sounds like it could sure be enviromental. 300 lb. lineman have bad knees alot of the time do they have genetically bad knees or is it the fact that they have the genetics that make them 300 lbs?
they found genetic markers that can predict lung cancer risks. turns out the genetic marker has nothing to do with cancer it has to do with peoples personalities. they have a higher chance of smoking, they smoke more, they smoke earlier, and they have less chance of being able to quit. does it prove that lung cancer is genetic?
could it be that culling for what people think is geneticly bad hips is culling some personality trait that you may want. could it be that dog temperment started declining at around the same time people started to push hip issues?


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## Don Turnipseed

> Don, I've been at this for at least 25 years and the cause hasn't shifted. With those that utilzed the x-ray system, I've seen improvement. When you began your program, did any dogs fail the 20 mile truck test? At what age do you first take them out for the diagnostic run. I wonder how many AD dogs [12 miles] are also hip sound. Anyone with a breeding clue, knows that tightly bred doesn't cause dysplasia unless you tightly bred on dysplasia. You'll agree that you have been able to control certain factors on a tightly bred gene pool but suggest that HD can't be based on genetics. Regardless to each's own and most don't have that tightly bred/truck tested gene pool to hang their hat on.
> 
> Terrasita


Who are yoiu trying to kid Terrasita. Originally HD was genetic, went on to be inbreeding, then back to genetic plus diet, now it is polygenic and diet. Nowhere have I seen them stick there neck in the noose and say definitely it" is this". We think, appears to be, possibly, we are sure" is as good as it gets because they don't know.

Take your true performance bred dogs, Greyhounds, sled dogs, hunting hounds. No one exrays.... they can or they can't....and they have little hip problems. By the way, they don't look at a dog and say "well, the dog is just a little bit slower and I think he is breedworthy!" If they are just a little slower, they are culled. It is balck and white. The only place hips are a big problem seems to be with people that obsess over exrays thinking that is the cure all end all.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jaimie said,
"could it be that culling for what people think is geneticly bad hips is culling some personality trait that you may want. could it be that dog temperment started declining at around the same time people started to push hip issues?'"

Exellent point Jaimie. The search for the civil dog that bites. Maybe they have more of a tendency to bite because their hips hurt. Love it.


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## maggie fraser

Keep your hat on Don, it's a good discussion. I wouldn't like to think that dogs are performing because they are hurting!


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## jamie lind

maybe don, but thats not what i meant. have you ever seen the 5 year old that climbs to the top of the jungle gym and jumps off. then you have the other one which is to scared to climb the jungle gym. which is going to have worse hips? is it genetic yes. but not in the bone structure.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Don Turnipseed said:


> Take your true performance bred dogs, Greyhounds, sled dogs, hunting hounds. No one exrays.... they can or they can't....and they have little hip problems. By the way, they don't look at a dog and say "well, the dog is just a little bit slower and I think he is breedworthy!" If they are just a little slower, they are culled. It is black and white.


That's very true Don, I've known many and still keep in touch with a few sleddog breeders/racers and not one of them xrays.

I'm not saying that xrays don't tell you anything, just that there are simpler and just as accurate ways to find these things out.


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## Don Turnipseed

jamie lind said:


> maybe don, but thats not what i meant. have you ever seen the 5 year old that climbs to the top of the jungle gym and jumps off. then you have the other one which is to scared to climb the jungle gym. which is going to have worse hips? is it genetic yes. but not in the bone structure.


Gottcha Jamie. Also it is an excellent point. On the other hand, nothing was wrong with my knees until I spent years plumbing....now I get up out of a chair like I am dysplastic but that is environmental. In your example, I can see the genetic side along with environmental. Possibly that is where the polygenic I keep hearing about comes into play?


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## Lynda Myers

jamie lind said:


> "especially with what I call the massive breeds. Some of them have rates of 50% or more. If its not genetic, what environmental factors are at play here?"
> 
> how can u say this has to be genetic? sounds like it could sure be enviromental. 300 lb. lineman have bad knees alot of the time do they have genetically bad knees or is it the fact that they have the genetics that make them 300 lbs?
> they found genetic markers that can predict lung cancer risks. turns out the genetic marker has nothing to do with cancer it has to do with peoples personalities. they have a higher chance of smoking, they smoke more, they smoke earlier, and they have less chance of being able to quit. does it prove that lung cancer is genetic?
> could it be that culling for what people think is geneticly bad hips is culling some personality trait that you may want. could it be that dog temperment started declining at around the same time people started to push hip issues?


Jamie,
your example of a three hundred pound lineman doesn't prove anything. Because all super large people don't have bad knees or other joint problems for that matter. Just the ones who by choice engage in activates like football that pushes the body repeatedly beyond it's normal limits.
Bad joints most often times stem from poor conformation and I'm sure I don't need to tell you that conformation good or bad even in humans is genetic. Take the person or dog with poor structure and place them in an environment that aggravates then condition. Add to this poor diet you now have a recipe for disaster. 
Ok take that same person/dog feed them a good diet, do strength training, and raise them in a environment that's conducive to their condition and it will go better then having done nothing. Might even get several productive years out of them.

I agree to some extent about the temperament and what it may be link with. That's why breeders should be selecting for the WHOLE dog and not just hips, head type, coat, temperament, hard bites etc. Especially in breeds where the gene pool for great temperament, sound structure, good working drives etc are hard to find in one dog. In that case a breeder might make some choices contrary to accepted practices. However, if that be the case the breeder should also be testing/culling with a vengeance all offspring produced not meeting the set standard or goal in which caused the breeding to take place. This is something very few breeders have the stomach for.


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## jamie lind

"Ok take that same person/dog feed them a good diet, do strength training, and raise them in a environment that's conducive to their condition and it will go better then having done nothing. Might even get several productive years out of them."

and this is how you make hip dyslasia a real problem. you baby that dog. ei don't feed it too much so it doesnt grow to fast, dont let it run to far, dont let it jump before its 12 months old, give it supplements to help its hips, keep it off slippery floors. now who has the real genetic problems you cant tell they all look good with an xray. look now i can show that dog or get a title and breed it. noone can tell if hip dysplasia is genetic or not. i dont care if every dog 5 generations back had it or not.


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## jamie lind

my point with the 300 lb lineman was not to prove something. it was to say you cant prove anything. one thing though you can be pretty sure that 300 lb lineman that makes it though a 12 year career with no injurys has really good genetics. and i'd rather breed to that guy than his brother that has had no injurys but has done nothing but sat on a couch for the last 12 years.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> Who are yoiu trying to kid Terrasita. Originally HD was genetic, went on to be inbreeding, then back to genetic plus diet, now it is polygenic and diet. Nowhere have I seen them stick there neck in the noose and say definitely it" is this". We think, appears to be, possibly, we are sure" is as good as it gets because they don't know.
> 
> Take your true performance bred dogs, Greyhounds, sled dogs, hunting hounds. No one exrays.... they can or they can't....and they have little hip problems. By the way, they don't look at a dog and say "well, the dog is just a little bit slower and I think he is breedworthy!" If they are just a little slower, they are culled. It is balck and white. The only place hips are a big problem seems to be with people that obsess over exrays thinking that is the cure all end all.


X-rays don't cure anything. They are information. We are back to the work determinant---sled dogs, grey hounds, hunting dogs and cull if they can't. You don't know if they culled before they bred or after; what age; etc. When did the dog get slower? What is slower? Is there a mph test for so long? Once again, the work determinant theory assumes culling. That means some failed. So is it really breeding truer or producing less HD? If the work determinant theory works for you---fine. It doesn't establish lack of HD in the dog. All you can say is I simply don't know and the dog could do X. If it can do X, we cull. These are purpose dogs. Nothing warm and fuzzy. If the person that gets them has the same purpose mentality, all is well. Sell them for the price of the local humane society adoptee, I'm sure no one will cry foul. Some of my local fellow club members breed dogs amongst themselves and place them amongst themselves and friends, family, whatever. The most they would pay for a dog probably isn't more than $100. Its the old farmer system and they have the same idea--it either works or it doesn't. But compare that to $1200--$2000. Feel the same way? Some gamble on the work theory. Others gamble on the x-ray theory.

Now weight and muscle mass are environmental. Makes you wonder how then do we have HD in the smaller breeds as well. 


Terrasita


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## Lynda Myers

jamie lind said:


> "Ok take that same person/dog feed them a good diet, do strength training, and raise them in a environment that's conducive to their condition and it will go better then having done nothing. Might even get several productive years out of them."
> 
> and this is how you make hip dyslasia a real problem. you baby that dog. ei don't feed it too much so it doesnt grow to fast, dont let it run to far, dont let it jump before its 12 months old, give it supplements to help its hips, keep it off slippery floors. now who has the real genetic problems you cant tell they all look good with an xray. look now i can show that dog or get a title and breed it. noone can tell if hip dysplasia is genetic or not. i dont care if every dog 5 generations back had it or not.


Sorry but yes they can if you breed dog "dysplastic A" to dog B and a it's determed that one or more of the pups is dyplastic..guess what that genetics pure and simple. 
They might get a passing the hip cert or they may not and yes others do do just as you have described. But I don't coddle dogs! My attitude is it's a bulldog they can handle it and if they can't then their not bulldogs!!


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## Maureen A Osborn

LOL the dogo world has the argument all the time...I have personally seen (and owned) dogos that can hunt and catch hogs without the slightest limp or lameness afterwards that were dx with CHD on xray. One of which is the dogo in my avatar. His left femoral head was even mishaped and he still could run,jump, fight a hog, and move in the ring beautifully. IMHO HD is both genetic and environmental. Xraying hips should be used as a GUIDE to HELP what dogs should or shouldn't be bred to another dog...HOWEVER, xrays should not be the be all that ends all in a breeding either, depends on what both dogs bring to the table. I have seen FCI A hips with many A ratings in the lines be bred to C hips and the litter comes out with A's,B's,C's and D's. It most definately isn't black and white.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maureen, the question is then, why would someone breed an A rated dog to a C rated dog? I can't see where the exrays are beneficial when everyone I have talked to that does exrays will find and excuse to breed a dog with fair to poor hips. They usually think the dog is just to great to not take the chance.

In answer to other posts that bring up the age old myth about the dogs being muscled up holding the hip in place. Game bred pits are a prime example. Solid muscle but HD is practically non existent. Then you take the amstaffs which is basically the show version and better muscled, HD is very common


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## jamie lind

lynda, i'm wasn't talking about you personally. i don't know if you took it like that. seems like you might have. in the orginal post this was written

"My pup was purchased as a conformation show dog/possible breeding." 

and 

"My questions are.... should I be concerned? more so than the obvious. Should I penn hip or do prelimanary x rays? nutrition or supplement advice? I have him on Precise adult chicken foundation 24% protein, keeping him lean, 2000-3000 mg Vit C (working on tightening up his front feet) and yogurt. Free exercise ect...... "

i personally think advise that says to "baby" an animal meant for breeding purposes is not the way to go. i dont breed dogs. i dont claim to know anything about breeding dogs. i was simply putting out some of my thoughts on hip dyslasia out there. take it for what it is. the truth is the experts dont know either. until they can make a test to determine if its genetic or enviromental or both noone will know.


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## Maren Bell Jones

jamie lind said:


> noone can tell if hip dysplasia is genetic or not. i dont care if every dog 5 generations back had it or not.


No, that's your incorrect opinion. Enter "canine hip dysplasia genetics" into the search bar. The abstracts of many peer reviewed studies are available. They are making good progress at finding out which genes in which breeds are implicated in canine hip dysplasia. Can't wait until they can design a good and easy test to find those genes. Will throw the breeders in a tizzy, that's for sure... 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> LOL the dogo world has the argument all the time...I have personally seen (and owned) dogos that can hunt and catch hogs without the slightest limp or lameness afterwards that were dx with CHD on xray. One of which is the dogo in my avatar. His left femoral head was even mishaped and he still could run,jump, fight a hog, and move in the ring beautifully. IMHO HD is both genetic and environmental. Xraying hips should be used as a GUIDE to HELP what dogs should or shouldn't be bred to another dog...HOWEVER, xrays should not be the be all that ends all in a breeding either, depends on what both dogs bring to the table. I have seen FCI A hips with many A ratings in the lines be bred to C hips and the litter comes out with A's,B's,C's and D's. It most definately isn't black and white.


Maureen, that's because 50% of dogs with hip dysplasia show no clinical signs, particularly as younger dogs. They are usually either stoic or they have the muscle mass to support that joint. So if you breed that dog just based on performance and not on what the hip joint is actually like, you are breeding with your head in the sand.



Don Turnipseed said:


> In answer to other posts that bring up the age old myth about the dogs being muscled up holding the hip in place. Game bred pits are a prime example. Solid muscle but HD is practically non existent. Then you take the amstaffs which is basically the show version and better muscled, HD is very common


Wrong again. OFA reports the AmStaff's percentage at ~25% dysplastic and the APBT at ~23%. Not statistically significantly different for those submitted. 

http://offa.org/hipstatbreed.html


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## Don Turnipseed

No, I am not wrong Maren, I specifically said 'game bred pits'. They are pred to a performance standard that requires hips and power. APBT's are not in the same class. Hot blood greyhounds are not the same as cold bloods either, just in case you have them confused also. Your muscle theory is lacking because Amstaffs are heavier muscled by far than true game bred pits but, like the APBT, neither are bred to a performace standard. Same could be said about show hounds and working hounds.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No, that's your incorrect opinion. Enter "canine hip dysplasia genetics" into the search bar. The abstracts of many peer reviewed studies are available. They are making good progress at finding out which genes in which breeds are implicated in canine hip dysplasia. Can't wait until they can design a good and easy test to find those genes. Will throw the breeders in a tizzy, that's for sure...
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed


Why would you assume it will throw breeders into a tizzy Maren. You know what they say about people that assume to much. The responsible breeders that breed for performance and function probably don't give a rip one way or the other. Seems the whole premise that you are missing is that they don't test now and their dogs get the job done.


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## Maureen A Osborn

I don't think it is just the muscle mass Don with the game bred pits, and with my dogos....remember, they are bred to ignore pain, hence a dogo being able to hunt and catch hogs and not limp even with hd. Same with a game bred pit. 
Here is something really interesting in regards to the artilce on the surgery and them saying the surgery is reserved for a DI of.45 or greater....if you look at a breed like the Cane Corso, most of them have a DI of WAY greater than .45 and have NO SIGNS of JVD. http://www.canecorso.org/hip_scores.html . Again showing that xray results aren't black and white and shouldnt be the do all that ends all. In the dogos, besides hip issues, there are many dogos with bad temperaments and lack the correct drives to hunt....I would choose a dogo with correct temperament and drives with borderline to mild HD on xray with no symptoms any day over a dogo with excellent hips with sh*t temperament and no prey drive.
PS, I am not a breeder and have never bred a litter in my life. However, I am a dogo enthusiast that has been in the breed 8 years now that wishes to see the dogo maintain correct form,function, and temperament and not become a big white show dog/couch potatoe.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maureen, the question is then, why would someone breed an A rated dog to a C rated dog? I can't see where the exrays are beneficial when everyone I have talked to that does exrays will find and excuse to breed a dog with fair to poor hips. They usually think the dog is just to great to not take the chance.
> 
> In answer to other posts that bring up the age old myth about the dogs being muscled up holding the hip in place. Game bred pits are a prime example. Solid muscle but HD is practically non existent. Then you take the amstaffs which is basically the show version and better muscled, HD is very common



Oh contrare Don, 

Of the 663 American Pitbull Terriers were x-rayed and graded by OFA 23.5% were dysplastic and only a mere 5.6% were excellent that is not very good for a extreme working dog!!! 
Please know I am very well aware of how hard game bred dogs were tried, tested and culled. But it's clear that the integrity of the hip joint was not a priority...no the main focus was wind, heart and bite.

Am. Staffs are much worse off you say...really?
OFA graded 2708 Am. Staffs and 25.7% were dysplastic and 2.3% were given an excellent reading. The physical evidence math doesn't support your argument very well!

Here's the link with the breeds listed by rank: http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

List of pitbulls graded by OFA:
http://www.offa.org/results.html?num=&registrar=&namecontains=N&part=&namecontains=N&breedlist=ALL&variety[]=&sex=&birthday_start_month=&birthday_start_year=&birthday_end_month=&birthday_end_year=&birthday=&regcode[]=HD&regand=N&regand=N&rating[]=HD%3A1&rating[]=HD%3A2&rating[]=HD%3A3&rating[]=HD%3A4&rating[]=HD%3A5&rating[]=HD%3A6&rating[]=HD%3A7&rptdte_start_month=1&rptdte_start_year=1974&rptdte_end_month=4&rptdte_end_year=2010&rptdte=&submit=Begin+Search

Now the list of Am Staffs:
http://www.offa.org/results.html?num=&registrar=&namecontains=N&part=&breed[]=STA&breedlist=ALL&variety[]=&sex=&birthday_start_month=&birthday_start_year=&birthday_end_month=&birthday_end_year=&birthday=&regcode[]=HD&regand=N&rating[]=HD%3A1&rating[]=HD%3A2&rating[]=HD%3A3&rating[]=HD%3A4&rating[]=HD%3A5&rating[]=HD%3A6&rating[]=HD%3A7&rptdte_start_month=1&rptdte_start_year=1974&rptdte_end_month=4&rptdte_end_year=2010&rptdte=&submit=Begin+Search

Please also remember that the number of dysplastic dogs of any breed may be somewhat higher simply because the obvious dyplastic dog's x-ray would not have been sent in.

Moral of the story rarely do people work their dogs hard enough to weed out all but the most obvious. A breeder who's looking to produced the best possible dog should be using whatever tools are available to make that happen.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Buts what good is a bulldog,pit, or dogo without drive and heart? To me, you loose them and you don't have a bulldog,pit, or dogo, you got a plain ol dog.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, I am not wrong Maren, I specifically said 'game bred pits'. They are pred to a performance standard that requires hips and power. APBT's are not in the same class. Hot blood greyhounds are not the same as cold bloods either, just in case you have them confused also. Your muscle theory is lacking because Amstaffs are heavier muscled by far than true game bred pits but, like the APBT, neither are bred to a performace standard. Same could be said about show hounds and working hounds.


Are you for real?? If they had done such a great job in breeding away and eliminating CHD. Ten why did it reappear in their offspring 10- 20 years later? Simple...they weren't looking for it. They were just going on the natural working dog theory.


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## Lynda Myers

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Maureen, that's because 50% of dogs with hip dysplasia show no clinical signs, particularly as younger dogs. They are usually either stoic or they have the muscle mass to support that joint. So if you breed that dog just based on performance and not on what the hip joint is actually like, you are breeding with your head in the sand.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again. OFA reports the AmStaff's percentage at ~25% dysplastic and the APBT at ~23%. Not statistically significantly different for those submitted.
> 
> http://offa.org/hipstatbreed.html


Sorry Maren didn't see this until after I posted.


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## Lynda Myers

jamie lind said:


> lynda, i'm wasn't talking about you personally. i don't know if you took it like that. seems like you might have. in the orginal post this was written
> 
> "My pup was purchased as a conformation show dog/possible breeding."
> 
> and
> 
> "My questions are.... should I be concerned? more so than the obvious. Should I penn hip or do prelimanary x rays? nutrition or supplement advice? I have him on Precise adult chicken foundation 24% protein, keeping him lean, 2000-3000 mg Vit C (working on tightening up his front feet) and yogurt. Free exercise ect...... "
> 
> i personally think advise that says to "baby" an animal meant for breeding purposes is not the way to go. i dont breed dogs. i dont claim to know anything about breeding dogs. i was simply putting out some of my thoughts on hip dyslasia out there. take it for what it is. the truth is the experts dont know either. until they can make a test to determine if its genetic or enviromental or both noone will know.


Jamie I didn't take it personal sorry if it appeared that way.LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, I am not wrong Maren, I specifically said 'game bred pits'. They are pred to a performance standard that requires hips and power. APBT's are not in the same class. Hot blood greyhounds are not the same as cold bloods either, just in case you have them confused also. Your muscle theory is lacking because Amstaffs are heavier muscled by far than true game bred pits but, like the APBT, neither are bred to a performace standard. Same could be said about show hounds and working hounds.


What are you even talking about? When you fill out the OFA forms, you fill in what breed the dog is, not what type it is or what its purpose is. It doesn't matter whether you fight the dogs every weekend or if you bring them into a nursing home every weekend. You would still fill in American pit bull terrier.


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## Lynda Myers

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I don't think it is just the muscle mass Don with the game bred pits, and with my dogos....remember, they are bred to ignore pain, hence a dogo being able to hunt and catch hogs and not limp even with hd. Same with a game bred pit.
> Here is something really interesting in regards to the artilce on the surgery and them saying the surgery is reserved for a DI of.45 or greater....if you look at a breed like the Cane Corso, most of them have a DI of WAY greater than .45 and have NO SIGNS of JVD. http://www.canecorso.org/hip_scores.html . Again showing that xray results aren't black and white and shouldnt be the do all that ends all. In the dogos, besides hip issues, there are many dogos with bad temperaments and lack the correct drives to hunt....I would choose a dogo with correct temperament and drives with borderline to mild HD on xray with no symptoms any day over a dogo with excellent hips with sh*t temperament and no prey drive.
> PS, I am not a breeder and have never bred a litter in my life. However, I am a dogo enthusiast that has been in the breed 8 years now that wishes to see the dogo maintain correct form,function, and temperament and not become a big white show dog/couch potatoe.


SO would I Maureen.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Buts what good is a bulldog,pit, or dogo without drive and heart? To me, you loose them and you don't have a bulldog,pit, or dogo, you got a plain ol dog.


You are acting like having a structurally sound dog is mutually exclusive from a dog with drive and heart. If this is in fact the case with dogos (which I'm not a dogo person, so I don't know), the breed is eventually doomed.


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## Lynda Myers

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Buts what good is a bulldog,pit, or dogo without drive and heart? To me, you loose them and you don't have a bulldog,pit, or dogo, you got a plain ol dog.


This is true and with a gene pool that's is small for a dog to have all of these traits one must pick their battles wisely. This is the order of importance to me temperament, working ability/drive/heart and structure.


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## Lynda Myers

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You are acting like having a structurally sound dog is mutually exclusive from a dog with drive and heart. If this is in fact the case with dogos (which I'm not a dogo person, so I don't know), the breed is eventually doomed.


Maren in my breed sometimes it is because more focus is put on size, and looks over working ability, function and to a lesser extent even temperament.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I don't think it is just the muscle mass Don with the game bred pits, and with my dogos....remember, they are bred to ignore pain, hence a dogo being able to hunt and catch hogs and not limp even with hd. Same with a game bred pit.
> Here is something really interesting in regards to the artilce on the surgery and them saying the surgery is reserved for a DI of.45 or greater....if you look at a breed like the Cane Corso, most of them have a DI of WAY greater than .45 and have NO SIGNS of JVD. http://www.canecorso.org/hip_scores.html . Again showing that xray results aren't black and white and shouldnt be the do all that ends all. In the dogos, besides hip issues, there are many dogos with bad temperaments and lack the correct drives to hunt....I would choose a dogo with correct temperament and drives with borderline to mild HD on xray with no symptoms any day over a dogo with excellent hips with sh*t temperament and no prey drive.
> PS, I am not a breeder and have never bred a litter in my life. However, I am a dogo enthusiast that has been in the breed 8 years now that wishes to see the dogo maintain correct form,function, and temperament and not become a big white show dog/couch potatoe.


I agree with you Maureen. To be very clear, I only bring up muscle mass because those on the opposing side of this debate keep referring to the reason HD isn't noticeable is because the performance dogs are well muscled. I don't believe it but it sounds good. The bottom line....if the dog can do it's job, regardless of what people like to believe about exrays, the hips just are not that bad. As you said, A dog that can perform its job, with no sign of a limp or anything, is 10 times the dog with perfect hips, according to an exray, that can't....be it temperament or any other reason. There are a heck of a lot of POS dogs with good hips. The problem is, the damned exrays muddled the minds of the masses and these same people will still breed to dogs that exrays say are marginal. Why, because they do a job well. They will always find a reason for breeding regardless of the amount of rationalizing that goes into it. Then they turn around and say breeders of performance dogs pay no attention to hips. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I think it is called hippocrytical.

Keep in mind, airedales, sled dogs, and greyhounds are not muscled up mollassers that are impervious to pain. . The selection is the same, they can do the job or they can't. That is the bottom line.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> What are you even talking about? When you fill out the OFA forms, you fill in what breed the dog is, not what type it is or what its purpose is. It doesn't matter whether you fight the dogs every weekend or if you bring them into a nursing home every weekend. You would still fill in American pit bull terrier.


LOL, Maren, Maren, game bred may as well be a different breed. They run from 35lbs to 50 lbs generally. Now, if you can follow the discussion, we have been discussing the fact that few performance breeders test hips. They test the whole dog. Game bred dogs are "not tested" so you can't include them with what the show folks stats show.
That' what I am talking about darlin. A dog is only as good as it's weakest part. The whole dog needs testing.


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## Don Turnipseed

Lynda wrote,


> Moral of the story rarely do people work their dogs hard enough to weed out all but the most obvious. A breeder who's looking to produced the best possible dog should be using whatever tools are available to make that happen


As long as those tools aren't muddying the waters Lynda. People have a tendency to look at exray results and forget that very few are excellent. The vast majority always fall some in between fair and good. That is what they call average. Same with people. This was all discussed in another thread.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You are acting like having a structurally sound dog is mutually exclusive from a dog with drive and heart. If this is in fact the case with dogos (which I'm not a dogo person, so I don't know), the breed is eventually doomed.


What are you even talking about?? If you had a clue you would realize that what you just said would include all breeds to damnation. How many perfect dogs have you found in any breed?


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> A dog is only as good as it's weakest part. The whole dog needs testing.


Amen.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You are acting like having a structurally sound dog is mutually exclusive from a dog with drive and heart. If this is in fact the case with dogos (which I'm not a dogo person, so I don't know), the breed is eventually doomed.


Only if people don't look at the breed as a whole unit, ie function,temperament, form, and health. Like I said earlier, a dogo or a bulldog that wont catch a hog is NOT a dogo or a bulldog, I dont give a hoot how good it looks or how good its hips are, it aint worth breeding. Would you breed a Mal that has OFA excellent hips and wins Westminster but fails the courage test??? I sure as hell wouldn't!


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## Don Turnipseed

Well, I have a funeral to go to. Services this afternoon, the party and dinner starts at 6:30 so it will be late if at all before I can get back to this. 
I am going to have to pass on the dancing this evening because both my knee and my hip is barking. I do have a parting question....If hips are so all fired important, how many of you have had your spouses hips checked before reproduceing? How many have had their kids exrayed at 6 mo.? I think things are a bit out of perspective. On one hand you have the groups that don't test but those dogs have it and just don't show it. The other half has their dogs exrayed. They have HD also but they cripple up and show it. Maybe it is the radiation from the exray causing it!!!


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> Lynda wrote,
> 
> 
> As long as those tools aren't muddying the waters Lynda. People have a tendency to look at exray results and forget that very few are excellent. The vast majority always fall some in between fair and good. That is what they call average. Same with people. This was all discussed in another thread.


Ok so when has knowledge ever muddied the waters? How else is one to make an informed decision without some information to go on? 
X-raying is just another tool to use when evaluating breeding stock. 
Don, you seem to be under the impression that most want it to be the only deciding factor outweighting all other tests or checks. True some will breed just on hip scores alone. But that doesn't make anymore right.

Ok average is fine, dysplastic on the other hand not so much and yes there will be times when a breeder knowingly chooses to use a dysplastic dog in his program. But the key is in the knowing.
Why would a breeder want to use a dysplastic dog some would ask? Because some breeds just don't a have a vast number of sound whole dogs to select from. But caution and wisdom still needs to be in play when one goes a bout such a breeding. For instance probably won't want to use him as much as you firsted had plan and definitely would not want to base a whole program on the dog. Also what's to be done with those animals that don't make the cut from that breeding? Pass them off to the unsuspecting for a profit, place them in a pet home or bucket them?
For me that's an easy question...bucketed it. 

I know, I know T I used the "B" word. :-o


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maybe it is the radiation from the exray causing it!!!


LOLOLOLOL funny!!!

sorry to hear about the other.


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## Chris McDonald

Wrong again. OFA reports the AmStaff's percentage at ~25% dysplastic and the APBT at ~23%. Not statistically significantly different for those submitted. 



Maren, this 23% and 25% numbers you gave I would think are the percent of x-rays that they are sent for review? If this is the case this does not really mean that 23 & 25 percent of that breed of dogs has hip dysplasia as your implying. Could it be that owners of AmStaffs and APBT are less likely to get there dogs x-rayed unless they believe there might be a problem. In which case there is a greater likely hood of there being a problem on the x-ray. Maybe if you x-rayed all dogs of these breeds the actual numbers of dogs with issues would be much less as a whole? 
Unlike GS that are more likely to be x-rayed even if they don’t have visible issues. In this case the actual percent of dogs with issues would be a bit closer to the percent of the breed with issues. 
Maybe? I don’t know much about this stuff, but statistics are usually not what they seem to be in many cases when you look further into it


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## Lynda Myers

Chris McDonald said:


> Wrong again. OFA reports the AmStaff's percentage at ~25% dysplastic and the APBT at ~23%. Not statistically significantly different for those submitted.
> 
> 
> 
> Maren, this 23% and 25% numbers you gave I would think are the percent of x-rays that they are sent for review? If this is the case this does not really mean that 23 & 25 percent of that breed of dogs has hip dysplasia as your implying. Could it be that owners of AmStaffs and APBT are less likely to get there dogs x-rayed unless they believe there might be a problem. In which case there is a greater likely hood of there being a problem on the x-ray. Maybe if you x-rayed all dogs of these breeds the actual numbers of dogs with issues would be much less as a whole?
> Unlike GS that are more likely to be x-rayed even if they don’t have visible issues. In this case the actual percent of dogs with issues would be a bit closer to the percent of the breed with issues.
> Maybe? I don’t know much about this stuff, but statistics are usually not what they seem to be in many cases when you look further into it


No Chris, Maren is correct the percentages given are of the dogs that were found to have some form of dysplasia here's the link
http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

The actual number of dogs x-rayed in each breed are:

Pitbull - 663 of those 5.6% (37 dogs) graded Excellent and 23.5% (156 dogs) graded dsplastic 

Am Staff -2708 of those 2.3% (62 dogs) graded Excellent and 25.7% (696 dogs) dysplastic 

All other dogs in each of the groups received a grading of Fair or Good.


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## Chris McDonald

I don’t know if I explained what I was thinking correctly. What lead to the owners of those dogs to think they should get there dogs x-rayed? GS owners might be more likely to do it even if there dog is showing no signs, but Pitbull owners may be more likely to x-ray only if they are seeing signs. This may lead to a much larger percent of the pits with bad x-rays than the GS compared to each breed as a hole. 
I think x-rays are a big crock, but that is a whole nother story these


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## jamie lind

"No, that's your incorrect opinion. Enter "canine hip dysplasia genetics" into the search bar. The abstracts of many peer reviewed studies are available. They are making good progress at finding out which genes in which breeds are implicated in canine hip dysplasia. Can't wait until they can design a good and easy test to find those genes. Will throw the breeders in a tizzy, that's for sure... "

making progress is good but that doesnt make it fact for me. i would think the breeders would be more excited about it than most. imagine the money and time spent on a dog then having its hip fail. also how many dogs are replaced because of bad hips in a puppy. unless you think all breeders are out to destroy the breeds. if thats the case a test wont matter. but saying that is like saying the vets make to much money xraying dogs and treating hips, so they are not working to hard on a test


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## Chris McDonald

I think most breeders are out to destroy a breed, maybe not consciously. Its those dam standards. Over the years they stopped breeding healthy hard working dogs because they might have been to short or too tall for the set standard. If the dog didn’t fit the standard it would sell for less. 
18 Year ago I went to a breeder to get a miniature greyhound. The breeder first showed me several dogs at $1000.00 each. I said that was more than I wanted to spend so she bought out different dogs that were $750.00 there markings made them cheaper. That was still more than I wanted to spend. So she bought me out a dog that had bad ears. His ears stood straight up rather than fold over. $400.00 bucks and he was sold.
Think about what a crock of shit that whole thing was. The cost of the dogs were elevated because of their markings and looks. This lady was an extremely well know miniature greyhound breaded who had dogs that she was asking many thousands of dollars for. Health was not mentioned. This lady like most breeders would breed for the litter she can get the most money for. In this case things like the look of the ears and the markings are way more important when selecting dogs to breed than if its father droped dead of a heart attack at 5 years old. 
I know this I am talking about a *** dog and all, but they are pretty cool for a little *** dog. My point is dogs have been bread for the wrong reasons for a long, long time. Even working dogs. Somehow retarded crack head dogs became the fad. So now you have GS that look like they are on crack until they are 5 years old and cant move anymore. It aint got nothing to do with how much the dog runs or jumps. This is just more BS that was made up by breeders of GS to explain why there dogs couldn’t walk at 5. “Did you let him run as a puppy? “ Well that’s why his hips are bad! ….. FU


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## Lynda Myers

Chris McDonald said:


> I think most breeders are out to destroy a breed, maybe not consciously. Its those dam standards. Over the years they stopped breeding healthy hard working dogs because they might have been to short or too tall for the set standard. If the dog didn’t fit the standard it would sell for less.
> 18 Year ago I went to a breeder to get a miniature greyhound. The breeder first showed me several dogs at $1000.00 each. I said that was more than I wanted to spend so she bought out different dogs that were $750.00 there markings made them cheaper. That was still more than I wanted to spend. So she bought me out a dog that had bad ears. His ears stood straight up rather than fold over. $400.00 bucks and he was sold.
> Think about what a crock of shit that whole thing was. The cost of the dogs were elevated because of their markings and looks. This lady was an extremely well know miniature greyhound breaded who had dogs that she was asking many thousands of dollars for. Health was not mentioned. This lady like most breeders would breed for the litter she can get the most money for. In this case things like the look of the ears and the markings are way more important when selecting dogs to breed than if its father droped dead of a heart attack at 5 years old.
> I know this I am talking about a *** dog and all, but they are pretty cool for a little *** dog. My point is dogs have been bread for the wrong reasons for a long, long time. Even working dogs. Somehow retarded crack head dogs became the fad. So now you have GS that look like they are on crack until they are 5 years old and cant move anymore. It aint got nothing to do with how much the dog runs or jumps. This is just more BS that was made up by breeders of GS to explain why there dogs couldn’t walk at 5. “Did you let him run as a puppy? “ Well that’s why his hips are bad! ….. FU



This is so true...whatever happened to form following function? The almighty dollar was the ruinaton for my breed. In the beginning there wasn't a standard and johnson type just american bulldogs. But when John Q public became interested in the breed Mr. Johnson added in the English Bulldog which watered them down a bit. making them more suited for pet homes. 20 years later the don't even look like the same breed. Because the Bully crowd are breeding for a super sour mug with an inch long muzzle (yes I said inch long) on a 23 - 24 inch frame carrying roughly 120-130 lbs of body mass. As you cam imagine wind, drive and working ability when straight out the window. Sad very sad.

I think the worse thing that can happen to a breed is for it to catch the public's eye.


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## jamie lind

i dont think its the breeders. the breeders breed what the public wants.


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## Chris McDonald

I don’t think the public wants GS with bad hips? But your right that they want a dog that fits into the “standard” that gave it bad hips in the first place. If that makes any sense


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## Maureen A Osborn

i agree Lynda...and actually the AB goes back to the Ol SOuthern Whites....and guess what? YOu look at the pics of OSW's and compare them to the hunting/older type dogos, they look really close.....ie, form follows function!!

Oh yeah, and JOhnson added sh*t temperament to the bulldogs!


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## susan tuck

It's getting worse now for the GSD. More and more dogs with back issues. Read this article regarding TVS:
http://www.dogstuff.info/transitional_vertebral_segment_lanting.html


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## Chris McDonald

I got a buddy who got a hunting line lab as a family dog and just left it in the yard all day. It trashed the yard and he thought his dog was an ass. He got rid of it and got something called an English lab. He thought it was a good dog. To me it was just a shell of a dog, it looked like a lab but it really wasn’t. I figured they must have just taken the shiters and kept breeding them till they just had shells. This is what happened to many dogs. Every douche bag in NJ wanted a Rottweiler at one time, but they really didn’t want a Rottweiler they just wanted a shell that looked like a Rottweiler


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## Maureen A Osborn

Yep Chris, same with the dogo.....most people can't handle a true dogo with true dogo temperament, yet they like the look and the fact they are very loving with their families...but they forget they are also very dominant....plus they are hunters and like to kill things, including your neighbor' cat or foo foo dog. THEN, to top it off, the dogo needs to be WORKED, if it cant be hunted, it needs to have SOME JOB to get rid of the pent up energy/prey drive they have, or they will find a way that you(or neighbor) may not appreciate.


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## Sandra Applegate

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Welcome to the world of genetic/polygenic/x-ray vs. environmental/work determines function. Incidentally, what is the height/weight of a typical 4 month old great dane puppy?
> 
> Terrasita


Males are about 65 pounds and 26" at the withers at 4 months of age


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## Sandra Applegate

Sandra Applegate said:


> Males are about 65 pounds and 26" at the withers at 4 months of age


 Let me add that at this stage in the growth game pups are growing FAST averaging 1" and 5 pounds a week. At the age of 6 months males should be about 100 pounds and 30" at withers


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## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> I don’t know if I explained what I was thinking correctly. What lead to the owners of those dogs to think they should get there dogs x-rayed? GS owners might be more likely to do it even if there dog is showing no signs, but Pitbull owners may be more likely to x-ray only if they are seeing signs. This may lead to a much larger percent of the pits with bad x-rays than the GS compared to each breed as a hole.
> I think x-rays are a big crock, but that is a whole nother story these


This is just my experience, but IME, people who aren't obligated by their puppy contract to get their dogs' hips radiographed aren't going to do it unless:

1) there's a potential problem (I did this with a former dog of mine because he was sitting a bit weird on hardwood floor and since he was a Mal/GSD X, I wanted to know, but didn't need a certification)
2) they intend to breed the animal and want certification
3) they are *really* proactive working/performance sport people who just want to know

Casual dog owners do not typically get it done nor are they usually very interested in the extra $40 for certification, just like tons of pet owners like saying their dogs have "papers," but they never send in the paperwork. I asked the last private practice I was externing at (Missouri rural mixed practice, no real performance/working dog people except some hunters) how many OFAs they had taken recently and they said only 3 in the last 4 years with 2.5 vets (2 full time, 1 part time doctors). 

Another problem with pit bulls is they are one of the top breeds (along with labs, Newfoundlands, and Rottweilers) to have cranial cruciate ruptures, so that's another orthopaedic strike against them. Interestingly, a CCL tear in a GSD is pretty uncommon.


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## Amy Swaby

That's what people want nowadays though, a shell of a dog. They want a dog that can seep on the bed with them, be lazy on the couch, and NOT eat the furniture.

A working bred dog to the average pet owner is a PROBLEM dog, because it's not Lassie.

We ARE talking about dogs here, there are rottweiler people that say if tail docking is banned they will never own another rottweiler. For many people it's more about looks than the heart of the dog. 

As for HD I have the simple stance of borderline or worse means the dog isn't bred. HOWEVER this is not my ONLY standard. I would never want to see a working breed watered down to "pets" by breeding pet quality dogs. Imho not every litter is going to come out with puppies that are BAM, what you would breed. In that case those lesser drive dogs are the "pet quality". If an owner cannot handle the shitters from a litter then you know what? They need a new damn breed.

For me IMHO science points to HD being genetic, the science may be a little confusing for those that don't study genetics, but just because you can't rectify the numbers yourself doesn't mean it's any less true. I had a lengthy write up on snake morph genes as a comparison but whatever. WORDS


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