# Why not more cross training?



## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I don't know how to clearly put this so bear with me -

Human athletes are often able to improve their ability (early on anyways) by being involved in a number of sports or by training things not specific to the sport of choice.

POLITICS ASIDE, why does it seem that so many sports dog handlers train or compete in only one discipline? (Knpv vs ring vs ipo) Would it not make for a stronger display of a dog's overall skill and worth to be successful at a number of the sports?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Probably because to train/compete in multiple grip sport disciplines at the same time with one dog would be confusing and too demanding on the dog, plus each grip sport discipline requires it's own full time commitment. Also at least in the USA, clubs are spread out so there's usually a large travel time commitment involved too, oh and there is the $$$ factor to consider. I do know people who compete in multiple grip sports, but not usually at the same time with the same dog (title in one grip sport then move to the next grip sport). I know a number of people who compete in a grip sport and also non-grip sports (dock diving, herding, AKC Obedience, etc..) with the same dog at the same time.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

For me, because it was hard enough learning the rules and finding the time and help to train in one sport, let alone multiple sports. Do I think IPO is the ultimate dog sport? Not necessarily, but there are limited opportunities to train and compete in other protection sports near where I live, so IPO became the sport I chose because the infra-structure is there with the GSSCC- clubs, trials at local, regional and national levels, helper programs, etc. 

As far as non-protection dog sports - heck yeah, why not? When I was looking for things to keep my retired but still active Malinois busy, I tried agility, rally obedience, dock diving, and mushing. The DS tagged along. I think there were a lot of benefits - physical activity to burn off energy, but also exposure to different styles of training, different environments, and mostly, just because it was fun for me and for my dogs. 

For me, money is the biggest limitation. I would love to be able to attend seminars, join a club, travel to events, get a vehicle big enough for crates and not worry about how much gas I'm burning, pay for equipment and still be able to pay bills at the end of the month. Still waiting for that lottery win.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

It depends in part in how you define "success". To compete at the highest level in any of the protection sports takes a lot of dedication/time/resources. For many people, that taps them out right there. They don't have the resources to start including other sports. That doesn't mean they don't train outside the box, I know plenty of IPO people that do bark and holds in a porta-potty, the woods, etc French Ring people that use accessories, work the dogs in water, etc. But the focus is on one sport.

If you just mean get some titles in a bunch of different sports, that could also be done with a similar commitment of resources. But your dog will probably be a jack of all trades, master of none, and while it might get upper level titles in a few different sports, chances of it being really competitive at the upper levels are slim.

Sometimes the cross training can help the dog, but other times it can cause problems/confusion. For example doing Ring with a dog who also does IPO. In IPO the out is always followed by a guard, and a dog who does anything other than out and focus 100% on the helper is going to be penalized. If you are also training the out/recall required for Ring, your dog may out, begin to recall, then realize it's a guard and return to the guard in IPO. Points lost. The hurdle/retrieve in IPO is always go over, grab the dumbbell, then come back. Granted standing at a distance from the jump, and throwing the dumbbell are big cues, but I've seen more than one dog who cross trains do the Ring jump going over then immediately returning, vs waiting for the command to return (required in Ring). None of these are impossible to train/proof, but it does require time spent on that.

I think ultimately though it gets back to resources. At one point I was training French Ring, Schutzhund, Obedience, Agility, Herding and Flyball all at the same time. I was also training 6 days a week at various clubs, plus time on my own, and spending over 1000.00 a month on club dues, trainers fees, gas, etc. How many people can do that who aren't single (families tend to get pissed you are gone that much) and without a very solid income?

These are the accomplishments of the dog I've done the most cross training with. She was titled in French Ring, PSA, Obedience, Herding, Agility, and Flyball. She trained for but didn't get titled in Mondio Ring, Schutzhund, weight pull, dock diving, and tracking. Also did a lot of "protection dog competitions". Lots of accomplishments, but notice none of her accomplishments are at the highest level in any of the sports she did. 

Calice du Dantero - 
FRII (competed in FRIII), PSA1, SchH BH, CD, HCTs, HIAs, HTDIs, HRDIs, TFE-I, FDCh-G, CL1, CGC, Major pointed (BOB), HSAc (1st leg), JHDs (1st leg), HOT
2003 NARA FRI Vice Champion
multiple Herding HIT/RHIT 
2nd place 2005 Gold Coast K9 Working Dog Competition 
3rd Place 2005 AZ Working Dog Competition
#6 Belgian Malinois 2007 AKC Herding Rankings
1st Place Novice Agility (Alt Breed) 2008 WPTCA National Championship
1st Place Open Obedience (Alt Breed) and HIT Obed (All Breeds) 2008 WPTCA National Championship
High in Trial Alternate Breed 2008 WPTCA National Championship 
GDC Hips - good, GDC Elbows, Shoulders, Tarsus, Stifles - Normal, CERF, CHIC


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Would it not make for a stronger display of a dog's overall skill and worth to be successful at a number of the sports?


In my opinion no. It would display the skill of the trainer. I would bet top trainers in any sport could change sports and do well if they chose to. Top trainers. They would realize/learn what it takes and do it for their own motivations. They wont do that unless it is worth it to them.

As far as worth of the dog, that is based on the needs and goals. If i need to eat hog, a narc trained lab isnt my first choice.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I don't know how to clearly put this so bear with me -
> 
> Human athletes are often able to improve their ability (early on anyways) by being involved in a number of sports or by training things not specific to the sport of choice.
> 
> POLITICS ASIDE, why does it seem that so many sports dog handlers train or compete in only one discipline? (Knpv vs ring vs ipo) Would it not make for a stronger display of a dog's overall skill and worth to be successful at a number of the sports?


Mondioring is suppose to be the big 4 all wrapped into one sport but it ended up being just Belgian /French ring. Plus a lot of people get prejudice against other sports same with religions. Oppps didn't mean to open that can of worms. LOL


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Thanks all, makes sense.

Kadi, I think you voiced what I already figured to be the case. I dont have a club so I did not stop to think what sort of dues would be required to keep them running. Additionally I had a hard time finding a simple explanation of the different exercises from different sports like that. Good job putting all that effort into your dog. proof "I don't have time" shouldn't ever be an excuse not to train.

All, as sports handlers do you expect to ever use your dogs for real world protection? Do you expect your dogs to react successfully outside the trial field cues? I am just curious as it kind of lends to dave's point that a proper handler could likely train any dog to any sport (even if only to a basic level)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nick. Just to clarify.

I did mean that most dogs with an excellent trainer could do most other sports although I didn't say it. I agree with what you said a "basic level" is realistic.

also, I did mean that most trainers who excel at one sport, would excel at another. However, to do so, they may assess the needs and require a change of a dog or type of a dog, helpers, training environment, methodology, etc. Success I believe would be on the individual's desire to make the switch and do it for their own reasons.

Same for dogs that are going to bite people for real. Not saying any sport or breed doesn't produce or allow dogs that will bite, because I believe they all will, sport and breed alike. More importantly, the sport or breed means nothing, but genetics and the talented eye of the trainer is what will be able to tell it will likely work. I do think more effective biters will be a bit larger than say, a pug or teacup poodle. 

Now, I want the barking to wake up the reliable gun and maybe slow someone down coming in the door. I do appreciate the guys who go out and kick in doors and keep the wolves at bay, and for them, quite a bit more is needed.



Nick Hrycaj said:


> Thanks all, makes sense.
> 
> Kadi, I think you voiced what I already figured to be the case. I dont have a club so I did not stop to think what sort of dues would be required to keep them running. Additionally I had a hard time finding a simple explanation of the different exercises from different sports like that. Good job putting all that effort into your dog. proof "I don't have time" shouldn't ever be an excuse not to train.
> 
> All, as sports handlers do you expect to ever use your dogs for real world protection? Do you expect your dogs to react successfully outside the trial field cues? I am just curious as it kind of lends to dave's point that a proper handler could likely train any dog to any sport (even if only to a basic level)


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

This is so interesting that you brought this up. I was listening to a sports show that brought up how the specialization of kids in sports at a young age actually ends up hindering their performance. My thoughts are this:

The limited life span of the animals presents an issue because it is difficult and takes time to teach a dog the behaviors needed to compete. You risk entering the land of "jack of all trades, master of none" by stretching your training time thin in each discipline. There are people who are dedicated enough to do it, but most people I have seen attempt it are frankly just shitty at them all. There really is only so much time in the day.

My sport, IPO, and I suspect others (although I don't know that for sure) already offer the ability of cross train within the confines of the same sport. For instance, the tracking phase of schutzhund requires a vastly different set of drives and motivations than that of the protection portion. 

Those were my thoughts after pondering for a while. Good conversation...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My older GSD has been trained in SAR, live find, cadaver, boat work and article search.

He also has his SchIII, AKC CDX, AKC HT in herding and has his CGC and TT. 

He's always had a natural retrieve and loves to swim but our venture into dock diving was less then impressive. :-o 

I've hunted quail with my Kerry Blue Rocky UD. He had a reasonable point but hated retrieving anything with feathers. He always came back with the bird holding it by the beak or feet. Hell on fur above ground though.

He would also retrieve hot dogs to hand with the hot dog as reward. 
I recently tried this with my #2 GSD but don't have the patience to work with him. Way to handler soft and I failed miserably.

He was also one of three Kerrys in the States that had a CG (Certificate of Gameness) from the AWTA den trials. My Kerry bitch was one of the other two and the only CH Kerry with the CG.
That requires the dogs to go down a 9" x 9" tunnel for 30 ft and two turns. they had to do it in 30 seconds. Rocky was 19" and 40 lbs. It took him 28 seconds.
Missy was 14" inches and 33 lbs. She did it in 7 seconds beating out a lot of terriers and Daschs that day. 

Weight pulled with CH Norwich terrier Grizzly as well as "tried" herding with him. He did a nice job of containing them in a corner but when they started to break from the corner..........well, ducks cost 5 dollars a piece then and I bought 3 of them......surprisingly fast. 

He was the second Norwich (by one day) in the Country to get his ATTS TT.
Griz was a great mouser and ratter but he had no interest in the den trials.

He was also in a play at the St. Louis Municipal Opera, handled by Jean Stapleton. He stole the show when he pissed on the bad guy's shoes. Not planned but his timing was perfect.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I don't know how to clearly put this so bear with me -
> 
> Human athletes are often able to improve their ability (early on anyways) by being involved in a number of sports or by training things not specific to the sport of choice.
> 
> POLITICS ASIDE, why does it seem that so many sports dog handlers train or compete in only one discipline? (Knpv vs ring vs ipo) Would it not make for a stronger display of a dog's overall skill and worth to be successful at a number of the sports?


I think in most of the US its a matter of what is available locally...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Look a this way.

Almost all professional athletes "crosstrain" to some degree.

A small number even may compete in more than one High Level Sport throughout their sports careers.

But, VERY FEW compete in more than one High Level Sport at a time, most will transfer from one sport to another.

The % of professional athletes that do end up competing in multiple sports is overall small, very small when looking at ones that compete simultaneously in more than one sport.

I know LOTS of people that cross-train their dogs in MY OPINION.
This does not mean that I know LOTS of people that compete in multiple sports with the same dog, at the same time.

There are several factors that come into play.

Interest level in whatever dogsports, training skill level, time and effort allotted to training the dog, goals in the sports and desires of high level competition, and last but not least the varying factors of the dog itself.

There can be lots of conflicts between sports, as far as targeting issues, and the outcome of different but similar exercises.

And then there is the question of WHY?
FOr instance, how does it benefit a KNPV handler to try to cross train his/her dog to compete in another sport, either at the same time, or earlier or later in the dogs KNPV competition cycle?

Almost everyone I know "cross-trains" their dogs, to some degree, in my mind, but few cross-train to seriously compete in multiple sports with the same dog, and fewer yet that do it simultaneously with the same dog.

I know quite a few that compete in multiple dogsport or working dog venues, but few that compete in multiple biting dogsports, at the same time, with the same dogs. Many will wait until they are "done" with one sport and then move to another with any given dog.. I also know people that have multiple dogs that compete, different dogs, in different sports.

To be successful in any given sport, the foundation training MAY be at odds with other sports, depending on a few things of course, like the dog itself, the training style, the training skill...etc...

you want to know more about your dog, send him into a dark unfamiliar warehouse basement by himself to find and confront a unfamiliar competent "decoy" that will test him. that to me is better than titling him in multiple sports.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

"you want to know more about your dog, send him into a dark unfamiliar warehouse basement by himself to find and confront a unfamiliar competent "decoy" that will test him. that to me is better than titling him in multiple sports."

I train that all the time being as how that's my dogs real life job. I was just curious on the sports point of view


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> "you want to know more about your dog, send him into a dark unfamiliar warehouse basement by himself to find and confront a unfamiliar competent "decoy" that will test him. that to me is better than titling him in multiple sports."
> 
> I train that all the time being as how that's my dogs real life job. I was just curious on the sports point of view


I hear ya...but personally, past a certain point, I think what clearly shows a quality dog are the things that came with the dog, things that are not really trained to high degree, things that cant really be trained into a dog.

There have been many a dog "tested" which fail, all manners of selection testing, this includes dogs that are titled in multiple sports...but for some reason, the title is often used as an oft too big of a part of gauging a dogs suitability for breeding..

The multiple sports thing can sure showcase a dog in some ways, but moreso for me it shows the training dedication and activity level of the handler...


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I can agree there. The idea of working dog breeding stock is new to me since all my dogs growing up were pound puppy mutts. While I know there are some success stories with the ball crazy lab types being saved from pounds for work I see why they have specific bloodlines. Do you know which European countries require titling for breeding? I once heard that is a reality but I don't know where.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

"He was also in a play at the St. Louis Municipal Opera, handled by Jean Stapleton. He stole the show when he pissed on the bad guy's shoes. Not planned but his timing was perfect."

Luv it Bob


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ms Stapleton told me she didn't know if she should give him a big hug or kick his ass off the stage for stealing the scene. 

She was laughing .......... I think. 8-[ :lol:


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So Nick, do you cross train your dog? Why or why not?


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I currently cross train my dog in IPO, agility, obedience and we have also done lure coursing and next week i plan to do barn hunt. I'm not super competitive and mostly i want her to have a lot of fun. 
But at 3.5 years old she has her CGC, TT, BH, UCD, RO1 and two legs in the next level. Plus a CA (Coursing App test) Ch and i'm missing something...... But my short term goal is to get the IPO1 and a agility novice title.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Leslie,

I do not have a sports dog so my training is confined to the police world. Part of why I dont look into incorporating sport stuff (control work routines etc.) is because there are no sports clubs less than 2 hours drive away from which to learn.

To cross train I try to be diverse: I use every type of article I can think of for article searches, every type of decoy hidden in every sort of location acting every sort of way for bite work , every age of track over every combination of surfaces, every hide location or concealment method I can come up with for dope, etc.

I see two things - 1) sometimes the dog or I fail... simple fact of life, points out what I need to improve the next time to avoid real world issues. 2) things in the real world are less novel since they have been presented in some way in training.

Ive said it countless times that i mostly train alone so any training I conduct is largely my own imagination (or was seen in WDF videos) which is sometimes repetitive/ stale/ short sighted.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Leslie,
> 
> I do not have a sports dog so my training is confined to the police world. Part of why I dont look into incorporating sport stuff (control work routines etc.) is because there are no sports clubs less than 2 hours drive away from which to learn.
> 
> ...


I think it is more important for the handler/train/owner to be cross-trained than the dog. Dog training is like song-writing, a successful dog trainer steals from everybody (to ruin a quote from Pete Seger). I train only HRD on my dog and I start with an historical foundation. This means my dogs are the go to in my state for cold cases. I do assist training area search dogs in wet HRD so that they won't miss the hunter that fell on his shotgun or the body hiding in the tornado debris. I've noticed the cross-dogs tend to be better at blood than my dogs and that makes perfect sense. As for me, I've trained obedience, area search, and HRD for nearly20 years now. I've assisted in (what's now called) IPO over the years from time to time and watched several competitions, so I know what they are about. I know there's an obedience portion as well as the other. I know enough that if someone wants to cross train in both IPO and Search that the dog should finish obedience before it starts bite work. I'm aware some clubs don't do it that way and I think it tends to show in the dogs.

Right now, the only way I can see new ideas in what I do is to attend a seminar and have someone else set up double blinds for me. So, I'd suggest you go to other venues to get other ideas and talk to experts in the other arenas to bounce your impressions and ideas off of them before incorporating it into your own training.


Jim Delbridge


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nick did your dog ever end up getting his first live bite?


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

No, funny you should ask about bite. . Last week I drove past the guy we were chasing for menacing. Dog can't do his job if I don't do mine I guess


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Hope you can find a good trainer to help him out with his live bite.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Hope you can find a good trainer to help him out with his live bite.


I dont know many trainers that are going to help out with a live bite LOL


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont know many trainers that are going to help out with a live bite LOL


 
Not on purpose


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## Holden Sawyer (Feb 22, 2011)

I am a huge fan of cross training. But same things here against it time and money, and not wanting to mix protection sports too much especially where the rules/styles/protocols are quite different.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont know many trainers that are going to help out with a live bite LOL


 I heard a rumor that back in the day the police used to buy a bottle of whiskey and ask a homeless person for a live bite in exchange for the bottle. LOL


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm not laughing out loud, or even silently.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I dont know that I condone the homeless decoy approach but I saw a thread and video here a while back indicating that certain KNPV trainers will use magazines/newspaper as bite protection beneath clothing to avoid equipment fixation in early training. Ideas how long that goes on (to what dog age)? I know that Mike Suttle has a video taking a bite from a breeding female wearing only a hidden gauntlet. Im sure there are others out there willing to get crazy like that...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> I'm not laughing out loud, or even silently.


Alright lets see here. What do you call two guys working at McDonalds? The surviving members of the band Nirvana.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> I heard a rumor that back in the day the police used to buy a bottle of whiskey and ask a homeless person for a live bite in exchange for the bottle. LOL


I was told that once as well


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I dont know that I condone the homeless decoy approach but I saw a thread and video here a while back indicating that certain KNPV trainers will use magazines/newspaper as bite protection beneath clothing to avoid equipment fixation in early training. Ideas how long that goes on (to what dog age)? I know that Mike Suttle has a video taking a bite from a breeding female wearing only a hidden gauntlet. Im sure there are others out there willing to get crazy like that...


this should be fairly easy to find someone to do for you, to use non conventional training aids, but still not a live bite...

I know lots of people, myself included that do "get crazy like that" . I don't know many trainers that would volunteer to take a live bite from an adult police dog.


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## Lars Vallin (Jan 17, 2009)

If someone has a ppd or a psd why would a person cross train for "sport". 

Lives and well being are at stake with ppd or psd. Certain principles I use from various sports schutzhund, ringsport etc help with focus and attention. In the end the utterly hellacious situations I deal with constantly at work can't be practically replicated or trained for. This is where the genetics, character, quality of your training knowledge are truly tested. 
Nothing will ever be as real as a real bite. Correction...... a all out brutal prolonged battle between suspect and dog. Seeing that is realizing what kind of dog you truly have. Not what a owner assumes or imagines they have.


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