# Fear-Stress-Antisocial



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

The following incident occurred 2 days ago.

I was throwing the ball with a Chuck It for my 2 dogs. They typically both chase the ball and one wins the ball. Then they both trot back for another throw.

A couple of days ago I'm playing the game and a man is walking down the street. It took awhile for the dogs to find the ball in the snow 2 houses down.

The man passes by the dogs and is about 60 feet away with his back to the dogs when this incident took place.

My social dog won the ball. They both start back to me for another throw.

The antisocial dog notices the guy and detours running straight for him.

She is very obedient. I called her and she immediately changed direction back to me.


There was no threat, stress or fear involved. The man was 60 feet away with his back to the dogs. He was not between me and the dogs.

I understand why many people would not want this type dog. I've lived with this dog for a year. With this particular dog the antisocial behavior is not fear based.

This antisocial dog just does not like people.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Give me a social dog any day of the week. I still say it's a confidence thing in most dogs, not all but most. I also believe some people deny or try to justify scared behaviour as anti-social, I'm not saying this is the case with Lee but in general. Take a great kennel dog that works awesome on the home field, probably been there for a couple of years and rarely been off the property, bring the awesome dog into say Manhatten and watch the awesome strong dog melt from stress from never being in everyday social settings. That's just one hypothetical but you get the picture. Lack of confidence


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

You sound like you are trying hard to convince yourself that you don't have a problem?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

The fact that the man was walking away, had his back turned, and didn't even know the dog was there so no change in demeanor, reminds me of one neo bitch that I owned. In that situation she'd run behind and bite him in the ass. Even if we were in a new place off my property. I reasoned that behavior as "you've made it here past me and I didn't get a chance to deal with you but here, this is just so you won't come back." In my bitch's case it seemed more of an automated reaction based on stresses and the resulting behavior being an outlet. I wonder if a more "clear headed" dog can go through the same motions. The test would be if it can be controlled by you in the sense of being able to clarify to the dog which part of the behavior it is that is unacceptable to you and the dog complying. Of course it remains to be seen what your bitch would've done but it's very possible her intentions were not friendly, and may become even less friendly as she matures.

When I try to understand the psychology of such a dog I have to think of a dog that perceives threat where another dog doesn't. Can we call this a sharp dog, or suspicious dog? How about just a dog that can't be neutralized to strangers, dogs or people. It can never be taken to the point where people are like trees to it, not worth a second glance. People will always have meaning. A busy life for the dog for sure always having to deal with this. Can't say it's right or wrong just depends on the owner's situation. I think it's important and interesting to discuss this kind of dog.

Does she behave in the same way if someone else takes her out and you're not there?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> You sound like you are trying hard to convince yourself that you don't have a problem?


I'm not trying to convince anyone including myself. Professional trainers who worked with this dog share my opinion.

I've repeated often, I have a specific reason for wanting a dog like this.

I am convinced about one thing. I the right decision when I decided to go this route.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I suggest you not have a dog like that out in public unless you plan on being sued. You are taking a chance every time you take that dog out. Sure he came last time but what if that guy turned around and started yelling at you to get your dog? Just seems scary and too much headache for me. I want my dogs NEUTRAL until I say otherwise.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm not trying to convince anyone including myself. Professional trainers who worked with this dog share my opinion.
> 
> I've repeated often, I have a specific reason for wanting a dog like this.
> 
> I am convinced about one thing. I the right decision when I decided to go this route.



Will the dog actually bite a man from that far out and continue to fight? Have you tried with a new decoy that is about that far away to see what she would do?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

It is a defensive dog in that situation, continuing a fight is not its objective. If it were to come down to a bite in that situation it would be to drive the man away which it would achieve.

Michelle is right, put a muzzle on the dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Will the dog actually bite a man from that far out and continue to fight? Have you tried with a new decoy that is about that far away to see what she would do?


I was working with Jean- Claude Balu last summer. She was charging the decoy from 50 feet away at 7 months. There were 2 different decoys.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> The fact that the man was walking away, had his back turned, and didn't even know the dog was there so no change in demeanor, reminds me of one neo bitch that I owned. In that situation she'd run behind and bite him in the ass. Even if we were in a new place off my property. I reasoned that behavior as "you've made it here past me and I didn't get a chance to deal with you but here, this is just so you won't come back." In my bitch's case it seemed more of an automated reaction based on stresses and the resulting behavior being an outlet. I wonder if a more "clear headed" dog can go through the same motions. The test would be if it can be controlled by you in the sense of being able to clarify to the dog which part of the behavior it is that is unacceptable to you and the dog complying. Of course it remains to be seen what your bitch would've done but it's very possible her intentions were not friendly, and may become even less friendly as she matures.
> 
> When I try to understand the psychology of such a dog I have to think of a dog that perceives threat where another dog doesn't. Can we call this a sharp dog, or suspicious dog? How about just a dog that can't be neutralized to strangers, dogs or people. It can never be taken to the point where people are like trees to it, not worth a second glance. People will always have meaning. A busy life for the dog for sure always having to deal with this. Can't say it's right or wrong just depends on the owner's situation. I think it's important and interesting to discuss this kind of dog.
> 
> Does she behave in the same way if someone else takes her out and you're not there?


I don't think it would make and difference if the man was going or coming. I don't know the answer to your last question. I am ALWAYS there with this dog. 

I can say that when the trainer was working her with a decoy he told me to hide. He took her over and she attacked the decoy. So I suspect the answer is yes.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I suggest you not have a dog like that out in public unless you plan on being sued. You are taking a chance every time you take that dog out. Sure he came last time but what if that guy turned around and started yelling at you to get your dog? Just seems scary and too much headache for me. I want my dogs NEUTRAL until I say otherwise.


I have a ecollar on her at all times when in public. My finger is on the stim button whenever we are close to a person. We walk close buy people all the time now without incident.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

How do you think the dog would react to a stim if she was going after someone close to her like that ??


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I can say that when the trainer was working her with a decoy he told me to hide. He took her over and she attacked the decoy. So I suspect the answer is yes.


Are you saying that the trainer held the leash? Being on leash can be a very different situation. It's rare in my experience to see a dog react with active aggression when it's off leash and off it's property. In such situation the dog is usually being defensive and the objective is to drive the threat off. I think it has to be a truly spun dog to go into active aggression in such circumstances or one that has been conditioned very strongly to go after people on sight. All I'm saying is that it's most likely in the situation you described that if the dog were to bite it will be one bite and once the person reacts by backing away that will be the end of it. Other's may be thinking that there's a risk of the dog displaying the same intensity in that situation as what we see in bitwork. I don't think this is the case. On the other hand I think you need to be careful with your approach to training this dog in bitework. There is a possibility you may condition the dog to react with active aggression in those situations. This will override some of the dog's more natural reactions and can obviously have very serious consequences if the dog bites an undeserving person.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Are you saying that the trainer held the leash? Being on leash can be a very different situation. It's rare in my experience to see a dog react with active aggression when it's off leash and off it's property. In such situation the dog is usually being defensive and the objective is to drive the threat off. I think it has to be a truly spun dog to go into active aggression in such circumstances or one that has been conditioned very strongly to go after people on sight. All I'm saying is that it's most likely in the situation you described that if the dog were to bite it will be one bite and once the person reacts by backing away that will be the end of it. Other's may be thinking that there's a risk of the dog displaying the same intensity in that situation as what we see in bitwork. I don't think this is the case. On the other hand I think you need to be careful with your approach to training this dog in bitwork. There is a possibility you may condition the dog to react with active aggression in those situations.


The trainer was holding the leash. The decoy was approx. 50 feet away. The trainer told the dog get him. The trainer let go of the leash. The dog charged the decoy and stayed on the bite. The trainer ran to the decoy, grabbed the leash and outed the dog.

The dog was not on my property. The reason for the leash was to hold the dog until the decoy was in position and to control the dog when she was outed.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Since you were in the snow...did the guy have a jacket that looked like a bite suit. I have experienced the winter jacket esquive a few times down here in the south while watching bite work.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee, It seems to me that your thinking is in the direction of demonstrating that the dog has the correct drives necessary for offensive work. I never doubted that, how could I, I've never seen the dog. if you say the dog is strong in prey or even actively aggressive I believe it. What I'm saying is that the situation you described in your first post IMO doesn't fall into that category. Even if it's not you holding the leash and the dog does a good send away bite it is still in a situation that cues it; the field, the decoy etc. You really don't want that to transfer to a neutral stranger in the situation you described and based on your previous descriptions of the dog's behavior I don't think that this is what happened. This is not to say that it won't happen in the future.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> How do you think the dog would react to a stim if she was going after someone close to her like that ??


She knows exactly where the stim is coming from. She would immediately STOP. I've worked with this girl and people and the ecollar for some time now.

Frankly she reacts to just the pager button. But, if I'm working with her very close to many people my finger is on the stim button.

Every summer my city hosts a Ironman Competition. Thousands of people are involved. I've taken her into those crowds working with her. We observe from a distance and then move into the crowds. There are many other crowded events in this tourist town. I've worked long and hard conditioning this dog to not bite.

I always make sure I have a exit path. I'm working on stare downs now.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Lee, It seems to me that your thinking is in the direction of demonstrating that the dog has the correct drives necessary for offensive work. I never doubted that, how could I, I've never seen the dog. if you say the dog is strong in prey or even actively aggressive I believe it. What I'm saying is that the situation you described in your first post IMO doesn't fall into that category. Even if it's not you holding the leash and the dog does a good send away bite it is still in a situation that cues it; the field, the decoy etc. You really don't want that to transfer to a neutral stranger in the situation you described and based on your previous descriptions I don't think that this is what happened.


I understand. I was wondering if in the dog's mind, the scenario I descibed in my original post, reminded the dog of the decoy work.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Since you were in the snow...did the guy have a jacket that looked like a bite suit. I have experienced the winter jacket esquive a few times down here in the south while watching bite work.


Interesting! Everyone is wearing winter jackets here. It may have reminded her of a decoy in a bite suit. I never thought of that.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I can also attest to the winter jacket thing. At our old Schutzhund club, someone brought a Dobe that had trained previously in personal protection or something to that extent one day to training in one of the colder months. I was wearing the thick insulated Carhartt overalls and chore jack and as soon as I walked toward it to talk to its owner, the dog got "the look" in its eyes like it was time to rock and roll.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

without being there...Dogs are actively chasing the ball...out pops the michelin man...dog that doesnt have ball decides its the perfect chance to get the other big ball rolling away from me. Just my not overly thought out scenario analysis.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> She knows exactly where the stim is coming from. She would immediately STOP. I've worked with this girl and people and the ecollar for some time now.
> 
> Frankly she reacts to just the pager button. But, if I'm working with her very close to many people my finger is on the stim button.
> 
> ...


Now Lee, don't get mad at me for saying this. We've had similar experiences with dogs that show this behaviour, not exactly the same but similar. In my opinion if the dog will stop the aggressive behaviour from just a page she is pulling the wool over your eyes. If imo you had said the dog would become more aggressive or just ignore the correction it would make me think the dog is really wanting to bite someone.

I hated having to always have a plan B when around people, at the time I thought it was kinda cool but not anymore, hindsight LOL.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Now Lee, don't get mad at me for saying this. We've had similar experiences with dogs that show this behaviour, not exactly the same but similar. In my opinion if the dog will stop the aggressive behaviour from just a page she is pulling the wool over your eyes. If imo you had said the dog would become more aggressive or just ignore the correction it would make me think the dog is really wanting to bite someone.
> 
> I hated having to always have a plan B when around people, at the time I thought it was kinda cool but not anymore, hindsight LOL.


I'm not mad, Gerry, shocked, hurt and dejected maybe. Just kidding! :smile:

There is a major difference with our experiences. If I remember correctly your dog got very aggressive with your wife.

My dog is a sweetheart in her pack including wife, daughter 20, sons 16 and 7. She reacts instantly 98% of the time to just a harsh spoken word. 

Outside the pack is VERY different. I know she is not pulling the wool over my eyes. My trainer and a couple of "brave" neighbors can attest to that.

When my trainer would want to show me something he would feed her hot dogs while he took the leash from me. After she finished the hot dog she used to immediately bite him. That was just the first 3 times he did it. He was the trainer that was so impressed he wanted to buy her.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

You're right Lee, that dog could only handle one person at a time, any more and he went postal.

He's still the same and his new owner likes it that way, but I thought I picked up on some similarities in the behaviour.

I would really be interested in some video if you have any.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You're right Lee, that dog could only handle one person at a time, any more and he went postal.
> 
> He's still the same and his new owner likes it that way, but I thought I picked up on some similarities in the behaviour.
> 
> I would really be interested in some video if you have any.


You know a video, if I can figure out how to do it , would be a great idea. I will give some thought on how to set up a aggressive scenario. I don't have anything now. I'm pretty busy controlling her during these events.

I spent a year getting her where she is now. That's why I was easily able to shut her down when she was chasing the man on the street.

I possibly can get a "stranger" to pull a stare down while approaching her "space".


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

seems to me the anti social person walks into a bar, gets his/her beer and sits in the corner away from anyone and enjoys their drink. 

What they DON'T do is run accross the bar and Punch a complete stranger, minding their own business, in the back of the head.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> seems to me the anti social person walks into a bar, gets his/her beer and sits in the corner away from anyone and enjoys their drink.
> 
> What they DON'T do is run accross the bar and Punch a complete stranger, minding their own business, in the back of the head.


Now we 're comparing dogs to antisocial people drinking in bars?? Duh! ](*,)


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Now we 're comparing dogs to antisocial people drinking in bars?? Duh! ](*,)


In most cases I don't like to compare but in this case I believe the general concept fits.

Anti social behavior is the dislike of social situations, NOT running two houses down to nibble on someone paying NO attention. In the scenario you wrote there was NO threat or potential of a social situation. :?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

to add: dogs behavior is guided by a few basic needs:

Food
Water
Sex
Air
Self Preservation


You need to ask yourself of these basic need what is driving the behavior.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Forgive my silly replies--I did not realize that we talking about such a serious dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> In most cases I don't like to compare but in this case I believe the general concept fits.
> 
> Anti social behavior is the dislike of social situations, NOT running two houses down to nibble on someone paying NO attention. In the scenario you wrote there was NO threat or potential of a social situation. :?


You are right about no threat or social situation. It's difficult to tell what was going through the DOGS mind at the moment.

She usually runs right by people chasing the ball. It would probably be different if this was typical behavior. Maybe she had a hangover.

I believe any concept comparing a persons temperament to a dogs is ill conceived and not applicable. 

I think I might have mentioned she does not like people. What was your antisocial dude doing in a bar anyway? If he was truly antisocial he would drink at home.

See how silly this is.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

the intent was not to compare "temperment" but to compare the general scenario and terms used to describe.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> the intent was not to compare "temperment" but to compare the general scenario and terms used to describe.


The general scenarios don't compare. Maybe she's not just antisocial but she's a bully too.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Bully? That makes a little more sense but is a Humman condition. The most confident dogs have no need to exhibit a behavior that might be percieved as Bullying.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Bully? That makes a little more sense but is a Humman condition. The most confident dogs have no need to exhibit a behavior that might be percieved as Bullying.


You started the unrelated human stuff. I was trying to put it into joking terms you apparently understand. I've known some very tough bully's. This is getting too stupid for me to continue responding. See ya!


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## Tiffany Geisen (Nov 4, 2008)

I have an antisocial dog. He wants nothing to do with people he doesn't know. For the most part he'll ignore them. If they persist to pet him he will tolerate them as long as I'm there, all the time giving them the evil fish eye. He didn't start out this way. I was told as a three week old puppy he was the only one who would cry for attention, wanting to be picked up. He went to a trainer at 8 weeks and got sent back to his breeder at 8 months saying he was anti-social unwilling to play with the handler and not wanting to bite. I have had him 2 months, he adores me, plays tug any time with me and recently played tug with big scary Jeff O (he did however take a pot shot at Jeff, can you blame him) and will bite any decoy. I'm pretty sure his antisocialness is a confidence issue and not an aggression/dominance issue but the concern is that he is only 11 months old and if he doesn't get over it he will become more aggressive. I'm with you Lee I spend a ton of time in public places working his obedience with hopes that he doesn't become a large angry at the world mal.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You forgot to mention he was Soda PoP's weirdo brother. She needs to straighten his ass out.

You also forgot to mention that his previous owner was an e-collar trainer, and I think that had a lot to do with it. He just did not have a chance, wrong type of dog IMO for that style of training.

That whole litter was a little angry.


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## Tiffany Geisen (Nov 4, 2008)

LOL....Poor Dys he's not a weirdo.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Too bad he didn't get a good bite in on Jeff. Maybe Soda Pop told him Jeff was a meany.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee, you have an excellent reason for having that dog as we have discussed. 
I just wanted to comment that that reaction is my point in another post about clear headed dogs. 
You know what you have and she'll do the job for you in your new home when that time comes. ;-)


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_
"You also forgot to mention that his *previous owner was an e-collar traine*r, and I think that had a lot to do with it. He just did not have a chance, wrong type of dog IMO for that style of training."

_Jeff- you say" e-collar trainer", like it is a bad thing=;- maybe the previous owner, owned and used(abuse) the E-collar, but didn't know when or how to use it correctly,#-o if used correctly-an E-collar can be used successfully on all type of temperments. IMO :mrgreen:

Lee, you may already be aware-and I know you have been doing a lot of work with your dog...but one thing I would be careful with-you said when you are walking your dog past someone, you are ready to give her a stim..... if you give her a stim, when she is already displaying aggression to someone passing by-be careful it doesn't actually escalate her aggression, thinking the stim is coming from the passer by-I would correct her at the first show of "the look"....and re-direct her to you.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> _
> "You also forgot to mention that his *previous owner was an e-collar traine*r, and I think that had a lot to do with it. He just did not have a chance, wrong type of dog IMO for that style of training."
> 
> _Jeff- you say" e-collar trainer", like it is a bad thing=;- maybe the previous owner, owned and used(abuse) the E-collar, but didn't know when or how to use it correctly,#-o if used correctly-an E-collar can be used successfully on all type of temperments. IMO :mrgreen:
> ...


Thanks Mo, I know this dog like a book now. I am redirecting back to me. I don't use a pinch for the same reason you mentioned.

A harsh word is usually all she needs. I do have my finger on the stim button just in case. I've never had to use it. I have used to pager a few times. She looks right at me when I have used it.

She is actually doing much better other than that one event. We pass people all the time now without even a second glance from her. I was still able to change her direction to me without any correction whatsoever including yelling at her.

I thought of something this morning that might be important. She usually chases the ball past other people and ignores them entirely. I've been trying to think about what may have been different this time.

She is having her first heat now. I'm not sure and I'll probably never know what made this time different.

The biggest thing now is people real close staring at her. She gets a real dominant body language attitude followed by a slow strong growl with no hackles up. She stands her ground or moves forward depending on the circumstance.

I'm working on that daily. It's kind of difficult staging those kind of events. If I can accomplish neutrality is those circumstances I pulled it off. We will see.

Oh yeah, then there is dog aggression still to be worked out. I stand out in front of Petco, where there is lots of dog traffic, with her on a traffic lead. #-o


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

*"She is having her first heat now. I'm not sure and I'll probably never know what made this time different"*

Her heat, may very well had something to do with her reaction- I have seen all kinds of attitudes come out of my female Mal, Tora-just before going into heat and during it....:twisted:

sounds like you have come a LONG way with her, good job!!

_*"The biggest thing now is people real close staring at her. She gets a real dominant body language attitude* ...._This is when I would correct her, before it progressed to her next display of aggression/dominance. Actually preventing her to escalate. Watch for suttle changes-a change in how she is holding her ears, the position of her head, or neck,pulling forward or her tail, is she raising it slightly....dominant or is she tucking it under-aggression being displayed as a result of insecurity/fear?....anyway-if you catch the change of the body language as it starts-that is when I would correct her-give her a slight stim/nick and tell her to watch me. I would do it everytime, not only when she has escalated to a growl. Then if she refuses to look at me-she gets a correction-for not looking, obeying my command. Condition her-when she gets that feeling of being challenged by a stranger-she knows that is her cue to look at you. (I do reward, but at times, I also use compulsion style training-main thing is being fair, but firm be consistent and -be clear on the message you are sending)


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I want to add something to consider. When my dog cues on another small dog, it could be a cat in someone else's case my dog wants to kill small dogs, it's full blown prey. When my dog looks at this other small dog and his ears go up and he starts to stack yes that is the time to correct. The prey drive is very strong and if he were to have a go and then receive the correction it would have to be extremely strong to mean anything. Really stronger than anything I can give with a prong and a shock from a collar would be too late. However in the case of Lee's dog there is most certainly a defensive element in her actions. A dog is much more sensitive to corrections when not in full prey. So I'm saying in a situaiton where she's on leash, I would let her have a go and correct strongly then. I would actually set her up to have a go at someone, and then correct. I would at least try it. I had one GSD that did that. He didn't have a bad disposition with people but he just felt like going for some at times. I saw that he was going to do it one time, and was watching him the same way he was watching the man. When he lunged I caught him mid lunge so off guard with a strong correction, let's just say it was Jeff Ohelsen style, and he never did something like that again. I think corrections for just looking should be considered very carefully in this situation although in other situations without a doubt they're necessary. Just my experience.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks Mo for the tips. I have only see her tuck her tail one time ever. That was the first time I took her into a building other than my house. There was lots of action, strange smells, etc. It was totally foreign to her.

She kept her wits about her but wanted to get out of there. Now she enjoys going there.:-D


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