# Extending length of "stays"



## Kori Bigge (Nov 28, 2007)

I am new to dog training, and I am currently training my first dog, a 7-month old GSD that I've had since 7 weeks old. He has been very easy to teach, so far, even for a newbie like myself. I began doing basic obedience training w/him at about 9 weeks old. He has learned several commands, and is very reliable. One of the commands he knows is "down", and the method I have taught him, "down" means "down until you are released to get up." I have not taught a separate "stay" command. Same thing w/"place." "Place" means "lay on your mat until I release you." 

My question is: How quickly can you extend the length of stays (downs, sits, place, etc), and how do you determine what is the appropriate length of time for that dog's age? I've heard that young pups, a few seconds is as long as you should expect. But how to you know how/when to extend the length of time on a command? I'd like to extend his stays, but he already will stay in place for about 45-60 seconds on the "down". "Place" is a new command for him, so right now I release him after about 5-10 seconds.

Any input is appreciated...thanks!


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## Denny Campbell (Jan 16, 2008)

For my NAPWDA certification, the dog needs to be down for 3 minutes. We start out with the dog on lead. Make the dog rest inthe down position then every time the dog goes to get up, give a verba correction with slight jolt of the lead. Everytime the dog goes to move, correction. After a few times the dog will begin to relize "O crap if i move, im gonna get corrected so i better lay here". This is not a hard task to overcome. The harder the dog, the harsher the correction. Use your own judgement based on your dogs drive. But rememer, when the dog stays for you, when its time to get up, huge praise and reward. You should be acting like the freaking sky is falling with bags of hundred dollar bills. He needs to know that if he does what you ask and waits for you to say go, he will get a huge reward. 

But that is just how we do it. Good Luck hope it works out for ya


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## Kori Bigge (Nov 28, 2007)

Thanks, Denny. For a 3 minute stay, how old is your dog? I mean, is it fair to expect 3 minute downs from a 7 month old? Or is that for dogs that are fully mature? I just don't know how much to expect for different ages...if that makes sense...

Also, please forgive my ignorance, but what is NAPWDA?

Thanks!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kori, keep it simple. In our program we use what is referred to as successive approximation, or from the simple to the complex. Combine that with a measurement of each step you take until you reach for final goal. For example; First set your goal. If you want the dog to remain in position 10 minutes, start with 3 seconds. To ensure the dog has learn the 3 seconds he must be able to perform that behavior 10 consecutive times, without error, prior to moving to the next step. The next step, in our program is doubling add 3 more seconds. (The numbers can be what ever the dog can bear, I'm just using 3 as an example.) When the dog can perform correctly for 6 seconds, 10 consecutive times, add 3 more seconds. When you get to a number the dog doesn't perform correctly, go back to the last "time" the dog was performing correctly. I find this almost eliminates corrections, the experience is mostly positive. I'm an antique in training, but this method works pretty good and you always have a reference point of where you dog is performing a behavior properly.

DFrost


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

I like to use intermittent food rewards to extend stays. I'll walk back to the dog, praise with "good platz" and give a couple pieces of food, then walk away again. The biggest reward for holding the stay comes at the end when the dog is released, but the smaller food rewards help make holding the position rewarding to the dog as well. I'll use corrections if needed, but for a young dog just learning they tend to be mostly verbal. If you can read your dog well and notice the instant he's *thinking* about breaking, rather than wait for him to actually break, this is the ideal time to issue a verbal correction, getting your point across that he'd better stay down without having him actually break or need a physical correction. I've found though that once the dog realizes there is incentive for him to hold the stay, other than avoiding correction or just the big reward at the end, he's much more willing to do so.

The use of small food rewards during the stay also helps the dog settle better into the stay, as he's less likely to get fidgety or build drive during his stay from anticipation of his big toy reward when released. It also conditions the dog to be comfortable and hold the down when the handler approaches, which prevents the dog from getting anxious over the handler's approach (can happen when the majority of the time the handler approaches it's because he broke his down and is getting corrected) or jumping the gun and sitting up or going to heel as soon as the handler comes back without waiting to be commanded to do so (can happen if the only time the handler walks back to the dog is to release him to play, or pick him up from the down and go onto the next exercise).

One thing to remember is that there are 3 main factors that will affect a dog's ability to hold a stay: Time, Distraction, and Distance from the handler. All 3 need to be trained for and proofed against, but only work on one at a time. Don't try to get your dog to hold a down for 10 minutes with another dog working a few feet away and you on the other side of the field all at once. Work on one aspect at a time and when you're training session is going to focus on one of those, like time, keep your distance away and the distraction level well within the dog's ability to handle for that session.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

What David said worked for me!

As our goal we had a 5 min, handler out of site down stay (with other strange dogs in the down as well) for our SAR exam.

I moved too fast towards this goal in the begining. I would say that at 7 months my dog could do whis whole required obedience routine, except any long stays. I was frustrated because all his other training came pretty easy. He just was not ready and would break and come to me in very distracting or borning situations, was still a bit uneasy. I tried corrections, but they were not very effective as my dog is quite soft.

Part was his maturity, part was my lousy training.

I started over with very small steps as David explained. And I trained TIME before DISTANCE. I started adding time slowly and progressively with me right near the dog. Once I got up to 5 min of stay time, I started adding distance away from the dog a bit at a time.

Once I got out of site I started with the short times again and worked my way back up, putting it all back together.

Once all together started adding distractions. 

Our first certification was just before he was 2 yrs and by then he had matured and we had worked up to it gradually. Good thing too, because his first long stay exam was in a place he had never been before, with heafty moderate winds, big crowds of poeple nearby, 10 dogs he had never met before downed (some breaking the down), all around him, while a helicopter flew overhead chucking bombs for avalanche control work! He didn't break! (Phew) 

Another couple things that helped me...

9 times out of ten I would walk back to the dog to release him so that he did not break to come to me, rather he expected that I would come back to him when the exersice was over. (sometimes I walk over him and around him before releasing as well)

And in the begining I used a reward that would be the same all the time so the dog came to anticipate something consistant and good at the end of it. I used toys for most of the rest of ob, but chose to use food for the long down at the begining and it worked (and big praise of course). Now he can get what ever reward and he is stoked.

Train for success is my motto! If the dog is breaking at 2 min, go back to where they can be successful like David said and work back up more slowly. It works, faster than you think! One or two short sessions a day and you will be working your way up no problem. If you anticipate a distraction the dog is NOT ready for, release the dog BEFORE it breaks. Then work up to said distraction.

Also note that these are what I consider "active stays". The dog is alert and attentive, not laying on his side or anything.

I have a different command at home when I want the dog to lay down and stop bugging me by soliciting play or training. "Have a rest". I am about to give it right now!!!

Just realised Chris Wild just posted a bunch of the same stuff...


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

I agree with David, Chris and Jennifer on pretty much all they said, especially about the food reward as opposed to a toy and going back to the dog to release him. The biggest thing when I work with teaching a young dog to stay is to build on success and try not to push for too much too fast and result in a failure. Another thing to keep in mind when working a stay is the lower key attitude of the command based on the situation...For example when we work on the down out of motion in schutzhund we look for the response to be fast and instant and the reward should be exciting, the down stay on the other hand should have a brisk response but the dog should be taught that in that situation it's more of a "park it" type command rather than something exciting.


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## Denny Campbell (Jan 16, 2008)

Kori, I didnt mean for your pup to stay for 3 minutes. Sorry i confused ya. I was saying that is how long we work up to. When we initially get the dogs, we start at about 30 seconds and work from there. All up to you. I do totally disagree with the foor theory, but that is my opinion. Good Luck,


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

To pass the TDI therapy dog certification, they have a 3 minute out of sight separation time. The dog doesn't have to down stay, but it can't be agitated, whine, strain on the leash, bark, pace, etc even while "recess" (kids running around with balls and toys and adults in weird clothing stomping around within a few feet of the dog) all while a stranger holds the leash. I found this to be the hardest thing to train and the two TDI tests I've watched, most dogs have failed on this. 

I trained it by having the dogs (including Lily, who I was training for this) down stay for their dinner every night from preparation to release to eat (takes about 2-5 minutes on a raw diet). I made it a point to have their food bowl partially full while I would walk back into the kitchen (out of sight to them) to go put extra stuff in their bowl. If anyone gets up, I hold that dog's collar, release the others to go eat while I have that dog's down continue on the down stay. Kind of a peer pressure sort of thing so they get to see the others eating. It helps if you can watch them somehow around a corner or through a blind with a peephole. I'm not a great trainer, but my dogs have always had pretty good down stays and Lily passed no problem.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> To pass the TDI therapy dog certification, they have a 3 minute out of sight separation time. The dog doesn't have to down stay, but it can't be agitated, whine, strain on the leash, bark, pace, etc even while "recess" (kids running around with balls and toys and adults in weird clothing stomping around within a few feet of the dog) all while a stranger holds the leash. I found this to be the hardest thing to train and the two TDI tests I've watched, most dogs have failed on this.


 
I like to practice out of sight separation exercises with my dog. He is like my shadow. Threw out the day I give him the down and stay commands, leave the room and then return. He is then rewarded with a food treat or his toy. I first started with just a few seconds and then extended it to a minute or two. On rainy days, I turn it in to a game of hide and seek with myself and my son. My son just loves this game with Zo. 

Sorry, off subject, I think that hide and seek thing is for tracking. Any how, the exercise is just something that works for us so I thought I would share.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Much the same as David.
One thing to remember. Don't always release the dog when you return to it. That could very easily create a problem of the dog believing your going to release it when you get there so why bother wait. 
Return, quietly treat, give the Down or stay command again and walk away.
Even though the dog hasn't gotten up at this time, the recommand restarts the clock for the exercise.


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