# medium pain threshold



## wesley stephens (Aug 13, 2012)

do you think this dogs can be good as PPD. dogs with medium pain threshold.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Medium pain threshold" doesn't say how the dog reacts to pain. Avoidance, aggression, submission? So many different possibilities.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So a dog deals with some pain, will it stay in the fight or head for the hills?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

yeah I agree Bob.

Threshold is very different than tolerance...


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

How do you assess a dog's pain threshold?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> How do you assess a dog's pain threshold?



You need a very good helper to do that. They need to be able to read the dog to a fault because going to far with it can set the dog back or ruin it
It's not critical in sport to find that point (some will disagree) but I would think it's a necessity for a K9 street dog.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

It seems like such a subjective judgement - I don't think it's a label I would put on a dog, it seems like such a small part of the total package that makes a good dog. 

By accident, I have kicked a tennis ball hard and bounced it off my dogs chest. She didn't blink - she was too busy playing the game. Step on her tail while she's napping and she yipes and jumps away. Where's her pain threshold?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree Leslie and Bob

The pain threshhold is dependent upon the person dealing it out. I rolled over my dog's tail with my office stool and he never made a murmur. His pain threshhold was high but pain threshholds can be linked to situations and persons. Somebody threatening this dog might have only had to apply a little pain to make him flee.

I have a dog who would turn on anyone who would try to cause him pain. His mate was extremely sensitive to pain - removing a tick nearly needed an anaesthetic but on the other hand he had terrific nerves and nothing knocked him, even a dominat helper. 

It's useful / interesting to know what pain threshhold your dog has but in my mind doesn't have deliver anything conclusive.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

One way to get an idea of pain threshold is the good ol toe pinch method, very useful when selecting a pup from litter. Tells you about pain threshold, reaction and recovery time.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> One way to get an idea of pain threshold is the good ol toe pinch method, very useful when selecting a pup from litter. Tells you about pain threshold, reaction and recovery time.


Toe pinches….
Ive done tests with pups from a certain line of presa, that I could simply not get any reaction out of them at all, without fear of physically damaging the pups. same thing with ear pinches, nothing.. some of those pups you could pick up at 8 weeks (15-18 lbs) by the top of the ear, and carry them around, and some would actually fall asleep. Or carry them around by the tip of their tales..with no reaction at all.

one dog I remember, grew up…. and I could see no visible signs of hips being bad, the dog could jump 6 foot fences and run like the wind for a big dog. Took him in for xrays….his hips were so bad the vet was not sure how he was even walking still at 2 yrs old,

same dog, took him to nasty "street dog" agitator, to have him try to crack into the dog a little (before I knew hips were bad, just saying), and get some suspicion or defensive reaction out of the dog. As his nerves were so solid, and he was so friendly that he took nothing as a threat and showed zero aggression, I raised him as a housedog…he was double flanking the dog, stinging it with the whip, amongst other things, and the dog sat with his tongue wagging and smiling at the guy..when the guy got through to him, he tore the fence off the frame and went nuts..

I think that line of dogs had some nerve issues or something, dog almost felt no pain at all..it was pretty amazing actually.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I was refering to GSD's not numbnuts


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree Leslie and Bob
> 
> The pain threshhold is dependent upon the person dealing it out. I rolled over my dog's tail with my office stool and he never made a murmur. His pain threshhold was high but pain threshholds can be linked to situations and persons. Somebody threatening this dog might have only had to apply a little pain to make him flee.
> 
> ...


Both my GSDs are soft with me. One to a fault but he could be nasty explosive when I was working him on the bite field. He's so soft with me that he almost cringes when I give him the stink eye. I never saw that soft side when he was on a sleeve. I believe pain or unfairness would bring out his darker side.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> I was refering to GSD's not numbnuts


oh I know what you meant, just reading your post made me think of that..
This DS I have seems to have more normal pain threshold..


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

But seriously if you experience a pup with very high pain threshold then it requires further investigation, namely,

1. Does the pup have drive (prey, food)?
2. Does the pup have no drive (prey, food)?

If 1 is true then if you are an accomplished trainer, you might make something out of the pup. The corrections (later when the pup grows up) would have to be level 10 ones as the dog would not acknowledge anything less.

If 2 is true then you are up shit creek. Dog will not be motivated and high corrections would not get the job done consistently.

In both cases you have a high chance to goto jail as those corrections in a public place promt 911 animal cruelty calls.

So in short, a simple 8 week old pup test could let you know about the future. Now if the pup aggresses and bites your finger at 8 weeks age then you better have good insurance when he grows up. It is a valid test. Genetics do not change with age.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

The Presa's seem to have dog aggession issues from what little I know of them. I would like to own a good one someday but I would worry about them killing my shepherd. 
I saw the video Joby posted of that 135 pound one that was a good one.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> The Presa's seem to have dog aggession issues from what little I know of them. I would like to own a good one someday but I would worry about them killing my shepherd.
> I saw the video Joby posted of that 135 pound one that was a good one.


get a good one, and you dont have to worry about it at all, it would be a foregone conclusion, most likely.

Of course they can have issues with other dogs in the home. Just the nature of the beast..can be trained against and controlled but never trusted in my book...

And the problem is cant really predict which ones will be like that, or which ones will get along fine..

I still see people telling other people that they have their presas with other dogs and everything is fine, so it is not a problem..and tell others that it isnt an issue... which is a huge dis-service to everyone involved.

In my experience it is not really about game-ness like some other dogs like APBT BT,,,etc... it is about elimination...so death is often a result.

and to top it off, there is little prediction or warning in many cases...they act like big goofy pups, have seemingly no issues with the other dogs, then one day they wake up, and you come home and your other dog is dead. or they explode and try to kill it right in front of you, and then the owners are scared of their own dog, it is quite a sight to see, a mature presa in full blown aggression mode in your house. pretty scary indeed, if you have never experienced things like that..

I fully recommend having the ability to completely separate the dogs if acquiring a presa in a multidog household. and assume there will be problems, there might not be, but there might be for sure. and if you do not have the ability to break up a serious dogfight with large dogs, I would not even try it..


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> One way to get an idea of pain threshold is the good ol toe pinch method, very useful when selecting a pup from litter. Tells you about pain threshold, reaction and recovery time.


We used the method of pinching in the loins.

However, I find this says nothing about the dog's future pain threshold as pain adiministered with a correction can be dependent on the correction. Pain administered during first aid, pain encountered whilst racing through the woods in whatever form, etc. (brambles) all have a different outcome.

You can take a dog to the vet's who screams and fights against the slightest pin prick but the same dog will fight ferociously when attacked by a helper. (From experience!!).

As far as I am concerned the pain threshold has no bearing on the way a sports dog will turn out.

Just take humans for instance. I have a fairly high pain threshold but, faced with something that I have never experienced such as various tests in hospital, etc., I am a nervous wreck.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I think they are cool dogs but too much negative potential around other dogs....for me. I'm bigger then most people but even I would not want to try to get in the middle of something like that.


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