# malinois studs



## Aaron Rice

Who are Some of the top malinois studs in the united states right now? Name a few per sport.


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## Guest

Aaron Rice said:


> Who are Some of the top malinois studs in the united states right now? Name a few per sport.


 
What may be TOP to one may be different to another, but realistically there has to be numbers....multiple litters, you need to produce pups! Then...were did they go? What were you breeding for? Consistancy? Health? Goal, endstate? Did you get there? The bitches bred to, what was the reasoning, comparison, compliment one another, outcross etc? What were your goals and did you reach them? 

This topic is can go in 180 directions, but that is what I look at when I think of any stud, first and foremost, gotta produce pups, one litter doesn't say much or two even....


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## Larry Birnholz

aaron rice said:


> who are some of the top malinois studs in the united states right now? Name a few per sport.


my endor son and daughter


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## James Downey

I only follow IPO. 


I like Vion La Maschera Di Ferro. Being one of the only Gismo sons in the states he's got some genes that are hard to get. I had a litter using him. I really like the Males he produced in the litter. I kept one who is showing he is pretty special. Plus...Vion, and so far his son, are great trackers. For IPO it's something I take into account. 

Outback's Jack. What I like about Jack. Is he has great drive, He's social...and no matter what you breed him too...you get little Jack's in both Male and females. his genes are very strong. 

Debbie Skinner has a dog named Dexter...though not in the states. A few of his sons are running around here. And some of them have produced well.

Also her dog D'only is quite the specimen.


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## Britney Pelletier

I wholeheartedly concur with Jody on all accounts, but if you wanted a list of dogs from various sports that have PROVEN to produce well so far, these are some that come to mind:

IPO: Master de Alphaville Bohemia (sire of Debbie Skinner's D'Only), Daneskjold Iron,	Vion la Maschera di Ferro, Qenny ot Vitosha

French Ring: C'Tosco des Barriques, Erny Mi-Ji (Master son), Baron de la Cite des Boston, Vulcain de Royaume d’Heracles

Mondio Ring: Loups du Soleil dogs.. (Pi, J'Buko)

PSA: Not many dogs in PSA (that are still alive) that have been bred have progeny old enough to measure anything, but Ares van Boekhout Akker, Zami van Joefarm (Jue) and Cartuck van Joefarm (Zuko) all have young progeny that are extremely promising.


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## Ryan Venables

I'll bite on this... I guess this is all personal preference though.

IPO - I'd probably second Vion - only because the breeder of my pup spoke highly of him... He was going to used him for the litter I wanted a puppy from, until I talked him out of it 

FR: Arras FR-3 (he's the sire of my pup), Vic del Fuego Interno (can't argue with 2010, 2011 FR 3 champ - this dog was just bred about a month ago), now this is where my bias comes in since I like the CdH lines... Dantero's Mac, and Loucyn looks like they have a couple nice males, I also liked what I read about OV's Dexter as well... but my bias is toward bigger Mals... and I've also met none of these dogs... just heard/read about them. I'm sure there are tons more that I do not know about... 

I'll follow this thread since I'm also very interested to see what others like.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I'm curious what people consider "proven"? Threw some nice pups that are still "in training", has a number of dogs who are titled or working as police dogs, ???


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## Britney Pelletier

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm curious what people consider "proven"? Threw some nice pups that are still "in training", has a number of dogs who are titled or working as police dogs, ???


Kadi - I think that's why it's a difficult question to answer. Honestly, I don't really view a dog as "proven" until it has had multiple litters on the ground with a high success rate of working puppies out of those litters. The original poster wanted to know about stud dogs in different venues (I perceived that as dogs working in those venues). In reality, some of the top producing dogs are either no longer actively competing, dead, or are KNPV dogs.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Britney Pelletier said:


> Kadi - I think that's why it's a difficult question to answer. Honestly, I don't really view a dog as "proven" until it has had multiple litters on the ground with a high success rate of working puppies out of those litters.


One reason I asked was because of the FR studs you listed. The first 2 have had multiple breedings, but only 1 of Tosco's litters are old enough to even be trialing yet, with 1 dog titled. And I don't think any of Juice's litters are old enough to be trialing yet. I haven't followed Baron as a stud so I'm not sure what he's got out there. But I believe Vulcain's pups are also fairly young.

I think the IPO and MR dogs mentioned are more along the lines of what I'd consider proven, as in they have offspring out there that have titled already, or are certified in something, ie police work, SAR, etc.

Not knocking the quality of pups any of these dogs are producing, just curious what people consider "proven".


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## Daniel Lybbert

I have seen a dog from juice. Its oldenough to trial.
Im interested to see any of Barons puppys.


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## Wade Morrell

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I have seen a dog from juice. Its oldenough to trial.
> Im interested to see any of Barons puppys.


I also like the pups I have seen from Juice.. Tom Moorcroft has a super one that I would love to have...


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## Kadi Thingvall

Does anyone know Baron's pedigree? Feel free to PM me


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## Jason Davis

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Does anyone know Baron's pedigree? Feel free to PM me


Santo x A'Rio I believe


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## Jason Davis

There is a Bogan son that I train who is very nice. He's the only Bogan kid I have seen so I don't know what Bogan is producing over all.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jason Davis said:


> Santo x A'Rio I believe


I'm aware of who his parents are, it's the dogs behind them I'm wondering about  Hence the "feel free to PM me"


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## Kadi Thingvall

None of his pups are old enough to be hitting the trial field or the streets, but so far I'm very happy with the pups I've gotten from Luigi du Dantero. He's one of those dogs who is proving himself to be good for competition and breeding. Course it doesn't hurt that he's been bred to good females either 

Luigi's father Mattole Valley's Evening Echo (I know, goofy name for a working dog), owned by Brenda Arao, has produced well in the breedings I've done with him. 

I of course also like my males Mac and Havok, or I wouldn't use them


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## Tim Leonard

I have an Echo daughter who will be 3 in a couple months.(Tweak du Dantero). Very nice working dog. Incredible drives, she is an amazing tracking dog. Echo has produced very nicely IMO.


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## Britney Pelletier

Wade Morrell said:


> I also like the pups I have seen from Juice.. Tom Moorcroft has a super one that I would love to have...


I own a half sister to Juice (both by Master) and she is a really, really super bitch. I love her


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## Erick Herrera

Hi WDF people

i´m new in working breeds. but i have more experiense in pitbulls. and i think PB are more documented breed, and the people use that info. to seach for specific characteristics. like bite strength, courage or aerobic capacity,etc.

don´t you think it would be better that we talk for specific hability and classify each stud for specific work. And the capacity of every stud to transmit genetically these characteristics. 


Erick


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## Harry Keely

As far as mals with papers i would have to say Konnies dogs, kadis dogs, Debbies dogs, and Master. I think Tim has been known to produce nice pups for sports as well.


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## Britney Pelletier

Harry Keely said:


> I think Tim has been known to produce nice pups for sports as well.


:-s Tim who?


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## Joby Becker

Britney Pelletier said:


> :-s Tim who?


Maybe Tim Stacy... USAmalinois.com


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## Aaron Rice

Joby Becker said:


> Maybe Tim Stacy... USAmalinois.com


I have a male out of one of tim's litters very nice dog out of fida. Big good grips and very confident! Still have yet to meet a dog that compares to maxey's norskey.


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## Jason Davis

Aaron Rice said:


> I have a male out of one of tim's litters very nice dog out of fida. Big good grips and very confident! Still have yet to meet a dog that compares to maxey's norskey.


What sets this dog apart?


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## Oscar Mora

I don't know much about Mals but I gotta say.....My to Favs are Bogan and Tosco. jmo8)


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## manny rose

Who is maxeys norskey??? any vid? What venue did the dog compete....and what has he produced?


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## Jason Davis

manny rose said:


> Who is maxeys norskey??? any vid? What venue did the dog compete....and what has he produced?



I found a couple vids of him online. Looks like he was training for PSA.


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## Maren Bell Jones

manny rose said:


> Who is maxeys norskey??? any vid? What venue did the dog compete....and what has he produced?


This is Norskey. I've only seen him trial twice, but intense is pretty appropriate, eh Aaron? :smile: This is him getting the PSA 1 at midwest regionals this year.


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## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> Maybe Tim Stacy... USAmalinois.com


;-)


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## Harry Keely

Would have to throw waleed in there and Greg & Katrina as well, have gotten to see some pups from previous stuff and seen there adults perform now as well. I think they concentrate on sports so they probally be good ones to talk to. Once again I am referring to papered dogs.


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## Zakia Days

Haven't seen too many as of recently. I know of a few Rodin kids that went to many different venues (schutzhund, police dept., PSA, FR) here in the states. There are a few Byrak kids that are really strong character dogs also. I like Tosco, but I also like Ajax (think that's his name) just as much if not more. Cyn is a beautiful, strong bitch. Not sure what she's kicked out. I've seen one Juice son in training. I haven't paid much attention to FR, schutzhund, or any dog sports lately or who begat who, so...


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## Justin Gannon

cyn has some kids doing fr and police work. i am breeding her early 2012. pm if interested.


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte

My question differs from the original, but I think there is no need for a new thread.

I am thinking about breeding my female and researching stud dogs I find interesting. Of course, I will get the help of her breeder when it comes to choosing, but maybe someone here will have any info on these dogs, their character, working abilities and progeny. Maybe even give me some clue if the lines should work together.

Pedigree of the female: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/356359/Daria-Degantis-Kraujas

Studs I am researching right now:

Arrack's Home Kamatz http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/48885/Arracks-Home-Kamatz

Robbie http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/57876/Robbie-NHSB-2395354-(Smulders)

Camino vom Herrenberger Schloss http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/7321/Camino-vom-Herrenberger-Schloß

Gino von den kleinen Helden http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2980/Gino-von-den-kleinen-Helden

Gucci von den Lausbuben http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/10272/Gucci-von-den-Lausbuben

I haven't seen any of these dogs in person, so right now I have to rely on videos and bits and pieces about them I find online.


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## Geoff Empey

Kadi Thingvall said:


> One reason I asked was because of the FR studs you listed. The first 2 have had multiple breedings, but only 1 of Tosco's litters are old enough to even be trialing yet, with 1 dog titled. And I don't think any of Juice's litters are old enough to be trialing yet. I haven't followed Baron as a stud so I'm not sure what he's got out there. But I believe Vulcain's pups are also fairly young.
> 
> Not knocking the quality of pups any of these dogs are producing, just curious what people consider "proven".


I'd have to agree I always wonder what people consider "proven" myself, many seem to get by only on hype and how 'cute' puppies are. 

In the first Litter that Juice sired where I used my bitch. They are 2.5 years old now, I kept one back and have been having a lot of fun with him, he has the Ring 3 program in him but I'm not in a big hurry to trial at that level. He does have his R1 now and we will see if we do a Ring 2 by the end of the trial season, then next year R3. Just keep working those techniques and having fun with him. He jumps like a dream, full heights on all the Ring jumps and is very animated in OB, has really nice hunt drive too. 

With that litter there is now one certified Avalanche SAR dog and 2 Ring 1's, coming up through the ranks and one estate guardian. There is also another that is cross training in a bunch of different sport venues but I suspect we will see Brevet and Level 1 by the end of this years trial season with him.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Ya I'm still stuck on the definition part... 

"top Mal stud" as in a dog that has been used the most for breeding? Or is there a question of quality of the pups produced as well?

If we're talking about top producing (which I'm assuming is what was intended)... to me that would have to be a dog that hasn't just been extensively used but a dog that consistently produces pups of who large percentage successfully train/compete in sports/work, are titled or are actively working. Just because the dog himself is awesome and he's been bred a bunch of times, that to me does not make a top producing stud, just a good dog who's been bred a lot. 

Out of the dogs mentioned, Rodin, yes.. Baron?? I love him but I don't think he's been bred that many times to even be able to establish any sort of reliable pattern and I don't know know any thing about any of his offsprings.


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## Jesus Alvarez

Great producers create champions and consistency.


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## Zakia Days

I think good stud means how well the dog "stamps" his litter with whatever characteristics one likes in the stud and want to see in the offspring. You will see the qualities in the pups and if they are all in the same or similar venues, you will see it in the pups during training and/or competition. More than likely the dog will produce pups/litters that can be used in many different venues as well. That's what makes a good stud IMO. Rodin, A'Tim (both have had litters in many countries performing in all kinds of venues), Judex, Byrak... There are several du Boscaille, Deux Pottois, Muizenbos, Groetenhof, Duvetorre, Perle de Toubueir (sp)... males that were great studs as well. Its all in the eye of the beholder.


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## dewon fields

You can't figure out who's a top stud, until you start CULLING (dirty word). Back in my pitdog days we figured out who was top stud/producer, by how many yearlings we culled. Same applies today however dog folks dont do it. I dont want to know how many titled dogs he produced, i want to know how many didn't make the cut. Good trainers can title a mediocre dogs. 

Also people are quick to say their studdog is proven, however is not him producing its the BITCH throwing fire!!


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## Zakia Days

LoL. True that! Rosa, no matter who she's bred to produces, always, a good dog. At least from what I've seen.


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## Daniel Lybbert

Grant Cussworth has a dog Saphir. He has only been bred 1 time. I think all but 1 puppy has a SCH or FR title. I own one and she is a good dog. Holly Huryn has a dog Gryff and he is a good dog. I have a dog from him and he is a cool dog also.


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## Ellen Piepers

Karina Scuckyte said:


> My question differs from the original, but I think there is no need for a new thread.
> 
> I am thinking about breeding my female and researching stud dogs I find interesting. Of course, I will get the help of her breeder when it comes to choosing, but maybe someone here will have any info on these dogs, their character, working abilities and progeny. Maybe even give me some clue if the lines should work together.
> 
> Pedigree of the female: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/356359/Daria-Degantis-Kraujas
> 
> Studs I am researching right now:
> 
> Arrack's Home Kamatz http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/48885/Arracks-Home-Kamatz
> 
> Robbie http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/57876/Robbie-NHSB-2395354-(Smulders)
> 
> (.......)
> 
> I haven't seen any of these dogs in person, so right now I have to rely on videos and bits and pieces about them I find online.


I have a Robbie daughter I'm training in PH1 (KNPV), but her mother is out of a very different line than your female (http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/966111/Faiza-vant-Merlebosch). Just send me a personal message with specific questions please as i do think it is off topic.


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## Bart Karmich

Where are all the Belgian Ring studs and lines? I mean, it's a great program, so why does it seem that a lot of the top studs in the US are FR and MR and you have to go back a few generations to find any BR in the pedigree if there's any at all. I would think BR lines would be more sought after, but hard (atypical) FR lines like CdH are actually more prevalent in the US.


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## Joby Becker

French Ring is at least 1000 times more popular in the US than BR. might have something to do with it.. lol

Of the small number of police mals that I am slightly familiar with, there are more BR dogs than FR dogs, though....and the couple that I know that are of FR type breedings, it is like you said, a couple/few generations out of BR program...


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## Christopher Smith

Because you need FCI papers to play most sports at a high level or play at all. NVBK papers are not FCI recognized.


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## Mario Fernandez

Karina:

Gino VD Kleine Helden has been producing some nice pups with various of lines of females. Been used as a stud for various kennels in Holland, Belgium, Germany Cech Rep, France,Austria, Sired the Arrack's Home G and I litters. From what I was told Gino is a very intense dog and throws that to some of his offspring. Has similar traits to his GP Sorba v Hoveld....and his sire Jorkan Gp are dusty and Cheyenne. 

Hope this helps.

Mario


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## Kadi Thingvall

Bart Karmich said:


> Where are all the Belgian Ring studs and lines? I mean, it's a great program, so why does it seem that a lot of the top studs in the US are FR and MR and you have to go back a few generations to find any BR in the pedigree if there's any at all.


]

Considering there is no BR here in the US, it's no surprise that regardless of the lines, the dogs are competing in FR or MR, and not BR. People in the US who claim they are "doing BR" are the same as people who claim they are "doing KNPV". They are "doing" a sport that has no competition outlets here, so not much actual "doing" going on. It's an easy way to make claims, without having to actually prove them by getting on the field and titling.

Unless the dog is an import, you aren't going to find many, if any, dogs with parents who are titled in BR in the US. Hard to have a US dog, not imported, with a BR title, or BR titled parents, unless someone took the dogs back to Belgium to title the dog. There was, very briefly, a BR program here for a year or so, and a few dogs titled to the Brevet and maybe BRIII (lowest) level, but that was a number of years ago.



> I would think BR lines would be more sought after, but hard (atypical) FR lines like CdH are actually more prevalent in the US.


I guess you could call CdH an "FR line" since they are in France and have a lot of dogs playing in FR, but the kennel is based on NVBK/BR lines/dogs. And many people do not want the hardest dog they can find, but a dog that has strong character, but at the same time is biddable.


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## Christopher Smith

Kadi Thingvall said:


> ]
> And many people do not want the hardest dog they can find, but a dog that has strong character, but at the same time is biddable.


I think you just got too deep for about 90% of the people on this board. 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make another thread on this subject and really explain what you mean.


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## Bart Karmich

Kadi Thingvall said:


> ]
> 
> Considering there is no BR here in the US, it's no surprise that regardless of the lines, the dogs are competing in FR or MR, and not BR. People in the US who claim they are "doing BR" are the same as people who claim they are "doing KNPV". They are "doing" a sport that has no competition outlets here, so not much actual "doing" going on. It's an easy way to make claims, without having to actually prove them by getting on the field and titling.
> 
> Unless the dog is an import, you aren't going to find many, if any, dogs with parents who are titled in BR in the US. Hard to have a US dog, not imported, with a BR title, or BR titled parents, unless someone took the dogs back to Belgium to title the dog. There was, very briefly, a BR program here for a year or so, and a few dogs titled to the Brevet and maybe BRIII (lowest) level, but that was a number of years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you could call CdH an "FR line" since they are in France and have a lot of dogs playing in FR, but the kennel is based on NVBK/BR lines/dogs. And many people do not want the hardest dog they can find, but a dog that has strong character, but at the same time is biddable.


It's understood there is no BR in the US. I was curious why there seems to be few NVBK lines in the US. Titling a US dog in BR is not practical, but importing semen or breeding stock from the NVBK lines is totally practical. I would think there would be more demand for puppies from these lines, especially for Mondioring.

But you have to forgive me that my knowledge of the lines is very poor. I may not have correct thinking, which is why I want to learn some more about this. For example, I had no idea that anyone would characterize CdH as Belgian or of that origin. I guess I would think of Deux Pottois and du Boscaille. But I do not know these dogs what they are really like.

I like what I have seen from dogs to which the Belgian lines have contributed, but the same dogs have come through breeding in Belgian, French and US kennels all focused on IPO or French Ring and by the time I see them I cannot tell what I am really looking at. But from what I can tell, that's the clues I would follow.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Bart Karmich said:


> It's understood there is no BR in the US. I was curious why there seems to be few NVBK lines in the US. Titling a US dog in BR is not practical, but importing semen or breeding stock from the NVBK lines is totally practical. I would think there would be more demand for puppies from these lines, especially for Mondioring.


I think you underestimate the amount of NVBK lines in the US. Many breeders combine lines, but off hand I can't think of any breeders in the US using only French or German lines. I can think of a few using almost exclusively NVBK lines. A few are using strictly KNPV stuff. Most are using a combination of lines, with a pretty solid NVBK influence.


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