# Rottweilers



## matt wiggins

Hi all,

I've always been interested in Rottweilers and am always keen to learn more about their breeding etc.
I was wondering if anyone serious about the breed could throw some names about of some of the best producing dogs and the lines which seem to consistantly produce tough dogs....when I say tough I don't mean raving in defense with spit flying everywhere i'm talking about physically and mentally hard dogs with low thresholds and very high fight instincts.

Looking forward to learning more 

Thanks in advance

Matt


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## Steve Estrada

I had Rottweilers for 23 yrs. & now have DSH! Huge difference in trainability & that's not to say that I don't love the breed. I use to call Shepherds, swamp collies, & they would call Rotts, pigs in suits. So you see can see my personal quandary. The lines are being line bred too strongly for my taste & believe they will be paying the piper soon. They came from a small gene pool after WWII, now they have tails which I don't care for. We use to say real dogs don't have tails! Haus Anin has good dogs but it depends where you are looking i.e. EU, US, UK whatever. You will not have too much a problem with tough or balanced temperament as most "good" breeders breed for that. As a widower with there young kids I raised my kids with them & my kids never felt insecure or threatened. They'd say if someone comes in Dad they won't be leaving! This may not answer your question but look for kennel lines & you'll find prominent dogs. Really depends on why you want one. If you're looking for a penis extension a Rott will provide it! For work they are more difficult to train, as I say if you can train Rotts for work you can train anything! JMHO good luck.....


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## Dana McMahan

I have seen a lot of individual dogs I really like. My next puppy will probably come from vom Turnleburg Kennel as they seem to be consistently producing dogs competing at high level. A male I saw out of them, Zeus, is by far the most impressive Rottweiler I have ever seen work. 

Some of the other kennels I would look at, vom Hause Anin, vom Herrenholz, vom Schloss Hexental, etc.


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## Kevin Barrett

If you don't mind shipping then look at von der karl adolf ranch or in u.s jenecks puts out nice looking strong stable dogs. The rottweilers are a very loyal stubborn breed, but in my book a great breed if you can handle them. Their not meant for everyone as most dogs have their place with certain people. If your getting one for an extention then keep looking for another breed, if your wanting to help better the breed their great dogs. Jmo


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## David Frost

We have a Rottie that is a single purpose drug dog. I'm fairly certain he would have made a dual purpose, but the timing just wasn't right. We got the dog from the Gifted Animal Placement Program out of Texas. I don't know all that much about Rotts, but I wish I did know more about this one. I've spoken with folks that say his conformation is excellant. Sometimes ya just wonder how a dog ends up where they are.

DFrost


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## James Degale

If you were doing a security detail alone with your dog and were jumped by 2 low lifes, what breed would you prefer to have and why? Save me all the "depends on the individual dog" stuff. 

I am a GSD man but the darn Rottie crowd people swear by them, God knows why


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## Joby Becker

James Degale said:


> If you were doing a security detail alone with your dog and were jumped by 2 low lifes, what breed would you prefer to have and why? Save me all the "depends on the individual dog" stuff.
> 
> I am a GSD man but the darn Rottie crowd people swear by them, God knows why


a crazy presa...with mediocre nerve...enough to seriously hurt someone, but not enough to focus on just one of the guys...


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## Garland Whorley

James Degale said:


> If you were doing a security detail alone with your dog and were jumped by 2 low lifes, what breed would you prefer to have and why? Save me all the "depends on the individual dog" stuff.
> 
> I am a GSD man but the darn Rottie crowd people swear by them, God knows why


Rottie,


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## Garland Whorley

Unfortunetly, not to many people breeding what you're looking for.. More people are doing confirmation.. Line breeding is RAMPANT!! I have been blessed to have some pretty good dogs, still lots of improvements I want to see in my breedings.. If you're looking for Rotties please check out my dogs, ALWAYS looking for suggestion and advice


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## James Degale

Joby Becker said:


> a crazy presa...with mediocre nerve...enough to seriously hurt someone, but not enough to focus on just one of the guys...


LOL, good one Joby


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## Kevin Barrett

Garland Whorley said:


> Unfortunetly, not to many people breeding what you're looking for.. More people are doing confirmation.. Line breeding is RAMPANT!! I have been blessed to have some pretty good dogs, still lots of improvements I want to see in my breedings.. If you're looking for Rotties please check out my dogs, ALWAYS looking for suggestion and advice



Garland do you have a website to check out your dogs?


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## Chi Nguyen

Laurie from Seeuferhause Rottweilers has some great dogs. I've seen and worked a few of them and they are the real deal. The kennel is located in Australia.

http://www.seeuferhauserottweilers.com.au/


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## Skip Morgart

Chi Nguyen said:


> Laurie from Seeuferhause Rottweilers has some great dogs. I've seen and worked a few of them and they are the real deal. The kennel is located in Australia.
> 
> http://www.seeuferhauserottweilers.com.au/



I don't see where Seeuferhause put any working titles on any of their own dogs.


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## Joby Becker

Skip Morgart said:


> I don't see where Seeuferhause put any working titles on any of their own dogs.


Do you think a title a requirement for a dog to be the real deal? or for him to be a good dog? 

I ask, because I recently had this conversation with a couple other people, want to see what you think...

also, do you think in order for someone to own, and/or match up good dogs together for breeding purposes, it is a requirement that they title their own dogs, or be great trainers themselves?


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## Skip Morgart

Joby Becker said:


> Do you think a title a requirement for a dog to be the real deal? or for him to be a good dog?
> 
> I ask, because I recently had this conversation with a couple other people, want to see what you think...
> 
> also, do you think in order for someone to own, and/or match up good dogs together for breeding purposes, it is a requirement that they title their own dogs, or be great trainers themselves?



I expect them to know what they are talking about. I don't need to see working titles on all the dogs, but I wouldn't waste my time if NONE of the dogs that they raised have any working titles. I would expect that if they are advertising dogs that are strong and capable of the work, then I expect them to prove that. A working title is just one of the pieces, but if they don't have any dogs from their breedings with any working titles, then I doubt they know a lot about working dogs.


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## Skip Morgart

Garland Whorley said:


> Rottie,


Garland- I went to your website. Is there a reason why you don't show the pedigree of any of the dogs on there?


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## Skip Morgart

Skip Morgart said:


> Garland- I went to your website. Is there a reason why you don't show the pedigree of any of the dogs on there?


Also, I saw very few rotts doing any work on your videos, except for some muzzle work where the dogs looked like they were playing more than anything.


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## Keith Jenkins

I have yet to see anyone put up a video of their dog getting ran so just because there isn't any video up doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. Sort of like those testimonials, not many are going to post the bad ones along with the glowing ones.


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## Joby Becker

Skip Morgart said:


> I expect them to know what they are talking about. I don't need to see working titles on all the dogs, but I wouldn't waste my time if NONE of the dogs that they raised have any working titles. I would expect that if they are advertising dogs that are strong and capable of the work, then I expect them to prove that. A working title is just one of the pieces, but if they don't have any dogs from their breedings with any working titles, then I doubt they know a lot about working dogs.


ok..never titled a dog myself..good to know what you feel is important...
from a business aspect..

i do lots of tracking for bites, building searches, engagements in dark basements. muzzle fighting and hidden stuff...
and pain and pressure stuff...I realize it is all pointless in determining what a good dog is for breeding purposes...but I am slowly learning about titles and stuff....I never put much stock in titles..unless they show how a dog handles capping himself fighting his own urges...good to know my previous thinking is wrong though (second time this week I heard it) I..am trying to learn...I now am starting to realize the dogs genetics and the personal expression of those genetics IMPROVE with a title in sport...


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## Skip Morgart

Keith Jenkins said:


> I have yet to see anyone put up a video of their dog getting ran so just because there isn't any video up doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. Sort of like those testimonials, not many are going to post the bad ones along with the glowing ones.


But if someone is selling dogs and advertising them as strong working dogs, and videos are posted on the website, I would like to see the dog doing some strong work. But that's me.


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## Joby Becker

Skip Morgart said:


> But if someone is selling dogs and advertising them as strong working dogs, and videos are posted on the website, I would like to see the dog doing some strong work. But that's me.


so strong work is expressed through titles? just trying to understand real working dogs here...


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## Skip Morgart

Joby Becker said:


> so strong work is expressed through titles? just trying to understand real working dogs here...


Joby...I'm sure you realize I never said that. I don't care what you do with your dogs, and I never said a title is the be-all-end-all to judge ANY dog. Titles and trials can also be misleading at times, but at least I know the person and dog stepped out on to the field to be judged at some level for anybody to see, in multiple phases. Since the thread is dealing with rotts though, do you have any?


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## Clark Niemitalo

A title is more proof then the average word given by people..A title does not make the dog also..Just a bit of proof is all..When dealing with off breeds It sure does help to have titles to beable sell to a home like mine..


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## Skip Morgart

Clark Niemitalo said:


> A title is more proof then the average word given by people..A title does not make the dog also..Just a bit of proof is all..When dealing with off breeds It sure does help to have titles to beable sell to a home like mine..


Clark: You still owe me that dollar. It was great to see you and your girl again a couple weeks ago at the SchH Nationals. GREAT helper work by you again, as usual.


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## Joby Becker

Clark Niemitalo said:


> A title is more proof then the average word given by people..A title does not make the dog also..Just a bit of proof is all..When dealing with off breeds It sure does help to have titles to beable sell to a home like mine..


I do imagine it does..hence the marketability..

but lets be realistic here..you are looking for a rottie to maybe save your life, like this thread is about, you go to test an adult dog..would a title mean much if YOU ( a world class decoy) worked and tested the dog yourself, for the job (of taking a guy down and owning him, under "your idea" of extreme pressure) ? and the dog was THE REAL DEAL.. but had no titles? ..would titles matter much?? just curious...be honest here Clark..

I dont know shit about sport dogs, I admit..but I sure can tell if a dog is gonna fukk me up...


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## Clark Niemitalo

If the dog it self had no titles i would go test him..But the pedigree better be full of titles..When I look at a dog the pedigree is important, Must have working titles!! This is not just a what i look for in the dog but the breeder also anyone can breed and sell but I want those who go a bit farther..If they dont title there dogs then i get to test the dog on my terms..That is as real as i get.

Skip I know I owe ya a dollar..Great to see you also..Thanks for the compliment on my work but i felt out of shape and choppy..

Also Joby when I look at a dog any dog the work ability is only part of the equation pedigree structure temperment are just as important..If we dont look at it this way then why have a secific BREED of dogs and a standard..We should look for a dog that has something to offer the breed it self or should be altered ( neutered spayed)..This is how we better the breed..This is why I look for titles, Breeders that go the extra inch..


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## Joby Becker

Clark Niemitalo said:


> If the dog it self had no titles i would go test him..But the pedigree better be full of titles..When I look at a dog the pedigree is important, Must have working titles!! This is not just a what i look for in the dog but the breeder also anyone can breed and sell but I want those who go a bit farther..If they dont title there dogs then i get to test the dog on my terms..That is as real as i get.
> 
> Skip I know I owe ya a dollar..Great to see you also..Thanks for the compliment on my work but i felt out of shape and choppy..
> 
> Also Joby when I look at a dog any dog the work ability is only part of the equation pedigree structure temperment are just as important..If we dont look at it this way then why have a secific BREED of dogs and a standard..We should look for a dog that has something to offer the breed it self or should be altered ( neutered spayed)..This is how we better the breed..This is why I look for titles, Breeders that go the extra inch..


I get the extra inch..but testing the dog yourself..and realizing he is THE REAL DEAL..when it comes to serious work, is that extra mile...but again I never titled a dog, so I am out of my realm, I see the sport work as a great tool for capping a dog, and controlling him..and making sure he can handle training pressure...but for the WOW factor, it does not show much..again I am no world class decoy, or trainer...just goin with the gut here...


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## Clark Niemitalo

I teach all dogs to cap drives it gives them an explosion point..To me the wow factor is it all control and obediance anyone can get a decent dog to bite but get a decent dog to give a 110% under control. That is the wow factor to me..


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## Clark Niemitalo

Joby I would like to discuss this more in detail with ya but I hate typing so you can call me.


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## Christopher Smith

Clark Niemitalo said:


> A title is more proof then the average word given by people..A title does not make the dog also..Just a bit of proof is all..When dealing with off breeds It sure does help to have titles to beable sell to a home like mine..



And all titles are not the same. The trial, judge and hosting club make a huge difference. If a dog is going to big trials and consistently scoring well, it's most likely a good dog. Although it may not be a dog that suits everyone's taste.

To the original poster. I had Rottweilers for a long time and to be honest I don't think there are any lines that consistanly producing strong working dogs. You have some that produce more than others, but it's still a huge crap shoot. If I were looking for a Rottweiler and didn't want to go through a few puppies I would look for a young teenage dog.


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## Joby Becker

Clark Niemitalo said:


> Joby I would like to discuss this more in detail with ya but I hate typing so you can call me.


no bother Clark. thanks for entertaining the discussion, I know you are a busy man...


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## James Downey

Clark Niemitalo said:


> A title is more proof then the average word given by people..A title does not make the dog also..Just a bit of proof is all..When dealing with off breeds It sure does help to have titles to beable sell to a home like mine..


Clark, I am still holding onto a benchmade SBK3120 Auto release knife for you. We got to get together this winter and work some dogs.

And like Clark Said, A title is like CarFax. Show me the CarFax. Then I will take it for drive and look under the hood. But no Title...Something has to be real intriguing for me to stop at the lot as I am driving by.


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## Nicole Stark

James Downey said:


> Clark, I am still holding onto a benchmade SBK3120 Auto release knife for you. We got to get together this winter and work some dogs.
> 
> And like Clark Said, A title is like CarFax. Show me the CarFax. Then I will take it for drive and look under the hood. But no Title...Something has to be real intriguing for me to stop at the lot as I am driving by.


James I don't know about that analogy, I got a real nice '64 Malibu that it didn't come with a CarFax. You either know what you are looking at or you don't. JMO.


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## James Downey

So there it is. Nicole knows what she is looking at. I need a little more help.


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## John Dickinson

Not to highjack the thread but a quick Thank you to Clark for his helper work at the USRC National's and a great catch on the long bite!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.


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## Joby Becker

I get it about the titles, I surely do..

my point was, the dog is the same dog, he does not become a different dog once he is titled...if he is a good dog, he is a good dog.

kind of like OFA, if I have an xray, and my vet (who used to be on the OFA panel) tells me the dogs hips are good, the hip structure and quality of the dogs hips do not change once the xray gets a rating from the OFA...it is the same xray...and the same hips...

I completely understand the whats and whys, just making a point that these things do not make the dog a different dog. 

If I was looking at a rottweiler and judging his thresholds and fight...a title would not even be part of the equation for me..unless he was to going to be competing in sport....if he is the real deal, he is the real deal..

I still think one of the best dogs on the planet is probably some rottie in someone's yard that doesnt even do bitework, just plays with the kids...
I love rottweilers...there are monsters walking among us, and we are none the wiser....


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## Chris Jones II

Joby Becker said:


> I get it about the titles, I surely do..
> 
> my point was, the dog is the same dog, he does not become a different dog once he is titled...if he is a good dog, he is a good dog.
> 
> kind of like OFA, if I have an xray, and my vet (who used to be on the OFA panel) tells me the dogs hips are good, the hip structure and quality of the dogs hips do not change once the xray gets a rating from the OFA...it is the same xray...and the same hips...
> 
> I completely understand the whats and whys, just making a point that these things do not make the dog a different dog.
> 
> If I was looking at a rottweiler and judging his thresholds and fight...a title would not even be part of the equation for me..unless he was to going to be competing in sport....if he is the real deal, he is the real deal..
> 
> I still think one of the best dogs on the planet is probably some rottie in someone's yard that doesnt even do bitework, just plays with the kids...
> I love rottweilers...there are monsters walking among us, and we are none the wiser....


yeah, well the dogs hips might not change but your vet could be a ****in idiot and think he's lookin at one thing but be lookin at another.


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## Joby Becker

Chris Jones II said:


> yeah, well the dogs hips might not change but your vet could be a ****in idiot and think he's lookin at one thing but be lookin at another.


that could be very true...he could also be senile


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## Skip Morgart

I get what you are saying Joby, but even with OFA they don't rely on just ONE vet's opinion for the final determination. Three different vets look at the x-rays, and then a concensus is taken. The vets often see things differently, but the majority prevails. Some vets are known for specializing in taking better x-rays to be sent to OFA. My point is, even highly trained vets can't always agree at what they are looking at. And since we were also discussing titles, all 3 of the vets had to go to college for many extra years to earn their own TITLES so that their diagnosis' carried more weight with the public. I do agree with you that there are "real deal" rotts out there that have never been tested and are just the family pet, but the percentage is very, very small in my opinion. I think the number people that are able to determine the level of "real deal" in a dog is even much, much smaller, yet I see tons of websites where the breeders claim their puppies have super drives for the work (and the breeder is clueless). The percentages of capable dogs are probably a lot higher in your DSs. With rotts, there is a ton of BS out there about dogs that can "work" and are the "real deal", so I think looking at titles does give some more needed info....but the sad fact is that (it seems to me) there is less and less "working" capable rotts being produced every year, which is probably why more and more people are going to your breed and mals.


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## Jim Laubmeier

Matt,
To answer your question honestly, you must look at the lines for dogs that have consistently produced the traits your looking for. I will name 3 dogs, Karo vom Schwaiger Wappen, Harras & Ken vom Sternbogen & Aki von der Peeler Hutte that consistently produced very hard, tough dogs. Dogs that dominated the working fields of Germany, USA and around the world for years and produced dogs that excelled in Schutzhund and the ADRK Korungs.
3 ADRK kennels built their foundations around these 3 dogs, Turnleberg with Karo, Herrenholz with Harras/Ken and Hause Anin with Aki. These types of dogs are not for the new or inexperienced handlers I must add.. Unfortunately, due to social concerns, the Rottweiler and hard temperament has been changed and bred now to satisfy the show crowd with oversized, mastiff headytype and sluggish working temperament.
The current strongest Rottweiler I have personally seen and worked is Zeus vom Turnleberg, a linebred Wilka male that has tremendous grips, power & aggression. He is a powerhouse and an excellent representative of his bloodlines. Zeus is a Max son who has produced the current crop of powerful working rotts in Germany and abroad.
I will not use a dog that I have not worked myself or had a helper friend work. The best way to evaluate a dog is to see him/her in person worked by a very strong helper. Tracking is training, OB is training but for me, Protection is genetics.. I agree with the others that the dogs should be proven & titled in sport but scores mean little to me.. 
If I can help you, please track me down..










matt wiggins said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've always been interested in Rottweilers and am always keen to learn more about their breeding etc.
> I was wondering if anyone serious about the breed could throw some names about of some of the best producing dogs and the lines which seem to consistantly produce tough dogs....when I say tough I don't mean raving in defense with spit flying everywhere i'm talking about physically and mentally hard dogs with low thresholds and very high fight instincts.
> 
> Looking forward to learning more
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Matt


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## Skip Morgart

Matt...per Jim's suggestion, I highly recommend that you contact him. Jim is a WEALTH of knowledge when it comes to the strong working rotts. He tells it like it is. No BS, and no hidden agenda.


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## Garland Whorley

Skip Morgart said:


> Garland- I went to your website. Is there a reason why you don't show the pedigree of any of the dogs on there?





Skip Morgart said:


> Also, I saw very few rotts doing any work on your videos, except for some muzzle work where the dogs looked like they were playing more than anything.


 
No reason why as to why I do not add pedigree on website, that is a fault of mine.. The videos I have will be adding MUCH more.. To busy training and working dogs, and not enough taking video of mine.. If you want I can email the pedigree of my dogs, not a problem.. ALSO Thanks for the smack on the head.. I will add more video.. I see where people sell pedigree and videos more than the dogs, so I formed a "not important attitude" come see/work my dogs was my reasons


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## Skip Morgart

Garland Whorley said:


> No reason why as to why I do not add pedigree on website, that is a fault of mine.. The videos I have will be adding MUCH more.. To busy training and working dogs, and not enough taking video of mine.. If you want I can email the pedigree of my dogs, not a problem.. ALSO Thanks for the smack on the head.. I will add more video.. I see where people sell pedigree and videos more than the dogs, so I formed a "not important attitude" come see/work my dogs was my reasons



Sure...PM me the pedigrees. Thanks.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Laubmeier said:


> Matt,
> To answer your question honestly, you must look at the lines for dogs that have consistently produced the traits your looking for. I will name 3 dogs, Karo vom Schwaiger Wappen, Harras & Ken vom Sternbogen & Aki von der Peeler Hutte that consistently produced very hard, tough dogs. Dogs that dominated the working fields of Germany, USA and around the world for years and produced dogs that excelled in Schutzhund and the ADRK Korungs.
> 3 ADRK kennels built their foundations around these 3 dogs, Turnleberg with Karo, Herrenholz with Harras/Ken and Hause Anin with Aki. These types of dogs are not for the new or inexperienced handlers I must add.. Unfortunately, due to social concerns, the Rottweiler and hard temperament has been changed and bred now to satisfy the show crowd with oversized, mastiff headytype and sluggish working temperament.
> The current strongest Rottweiler I have personally seen and worked is Zeus vom Turnleberg, a linebred Wilka male that has tremendous grips, power & aggression. He is a powerhouse and an excellent representative of his bloodlines. Zeus is a Max son who has produced the current crop of powerful working rotts in Germany and abroad.
> I will not use a dog that I have not worked myself or had a helper friend work. The best way to evaluate a dog is to see him/her in person worked by a very strong helper. Tracking is training, OB is training but for me, Protection is genetics.. I agree with the others that the dogs should be proven & titled in sport but scores mean little to me..
> If I can help you, please track me down..


Jim, there seems to be a negative current about line breeding. You just posted some names of the strongest rotties that have dominated for years. Have they been linebred for years or not?


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## Don Turnipseed

This post is not breed specific but is food for thought. Any breeder that has been breeding for any length of time knows at a glance which pups have the most potential. Those are the ones he is going to keep and title if he titles his own dogs. The ones with the most potential....always. If that breeders dogs are not heavliy line bred for generations the dogs he picks to title are in no way indicative of the other 80% or 90% of the dogs he is producing. Looks great on paper but no where else. Next thing. Since that breeder know which dogs have the most potential, he is going to place them where they will do him the most good. The other 80% to 90% will be sold to the buyers he has never heard of.


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## Dave Martin

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jim, there seems to be a negative current about line breeding. You just posted some names of the strongest rotties that have dominated for years. Have they been linebred for years or not?


Among who? Personally I would have to be head over heels in love with each and every dog in a litter's pedigree to even consider a puppy for my myself, and that puppy would need to show me a LOT in his first 8 weeks. 

Most of my favorite Rottweilers of the past decade are line bred and without checking, I'd venture a guess that my favorite _working_ Rotts may be all line bred. 

Not to answer for Jim, but my answer to your question would be yes, but only by the few working Rottweiler kennels.


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## Don Turnipseed

Dave Martin said:


> Among who? Personally I would have to be head over heels in love with each and every dog in a litter's pedigree to even consider a puppy for my myself, and that puppy would need to show me a LOT in his first 8 weeks.
> 
> Most of my favorite Rottweilers of the past decade are line bred and without checking, I'd venture a guess that my favorite _working_ Rotts may be all line bred.
> 
> Not to answer for Jim, but my answer to your question would be yes, but only by the few working Rottweiler kennels.


I think this was your first post on the topic Dave. I was just making a point regarding a few other posts. I know, if those dogs mentioned have dominated the scene for years, they are most definitely line bred. There was a post or two previously that seem to say it is hard to find quality rotts today because they are being line bred. At least that is the way I interpreted it. Actually, it is quite the opposite. Cheers.


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## Jim Laubmeier

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think this was your first post on the topic Dave. I was just making a point regarding a few other posts. I know, if those dogs mentioned have dominated the scene for years, they are most definitely line bred. There was a post or two previously that seem to say it is hard to find quality rotts today because they are being line bred. At least that is the way I interpreted it. Actually, it is quite the opposite. Cheers.


Hi Don,
I cannot understand why there are those that would see ‘linebreeding’ as a negative.. Linebreeding has been the most successful way to nail down genetic traits in all animals including working dogs, period.. Due to my previous history with poor health & temperament in rotts and still wanting a working rott I chose to immerse myself by necessity into pedigree research using ADRK Dogbase, KorBuchs, Korung videos etc.. During this same time I was doing a LOT of helper work around the country and in Germany and worked a lot of dogs and was able to see & feel the differences in genetics with the different bloodlines. Having worked the biggest USA / AWDF events the past few yrs, I did the same with GSD’s & Mals that I ‘personally’ liked. I would get a program at the event and after a flight if I had worked a dog I really liked I would check his name in my program. Upon my return home I would research the dogs which included GSD’s & Mals.. What I found was the same with rotts, strong dogs & bloodlines produced the same, over and over.. My favorite GSD line has been Nick vom Heilegenbosch: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/30754/Nick-vom-Heiligenboesch Very strong, hard dogs with monster grips and love to fight strong helpers..
Mals I liked were mostly from this dog & bloodline: Turcodos van de Duvetorre: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1972/Turcodos-van-de-Duvetorre Very strong dogs, hard full grips & extremely fast, powerful strikers, screamers on the long bite..
Linebreeding in rotts is the same as in GSD’s & Mals, find strong PROVEN dogs, especially bitches with power and use those dogs. Yes, in the 90’s and early 2000’s, the lines of Aki, Karo & the Sternbogen boys were in vogue & popular but due to the rott breed getting watered down temperament-wise the last several yrs and everyone looking for mastiff, sluggish statues for the Sieger show ring, the fire in the breed has been diminished..
My favorite rott line by far is Noris vom Gruntenblick, a V1 ADRK Klubsieger, Bundessieger, Gekort bis EZA dogs who came from the perfect mix, IMO, of type & temperament and produced it.. Noris: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/36566/Noris-vom-Gruentenblick - he is heavily linebred on the F litter Gruntenblick and out of Addi vom Herrenholz. Noris’s Korung: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia_IQJkdnb8 Noris courage test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLCB2PGeFU8
I have seen & worked some nice dogs that were not well bred that are handled by excellent handlers/trainers but the weak genetic component is still apparent to me.. Better to find your training style & pick a genetically strong dog that matches up.. My formula of intense research & actually working the dogs has been immensely helpful in assisting me with learning about the heart of these dogs. 
Just my opinion.. Hope it helps..


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Laubmeier said:


> Hi Don,
> I cannot understand why there are those that would see ‘linebreeding’ as a negative.. Linebreeding has been the most successful way to nail down genetic traits in all animals including working dogs, period.. Due to my previous history with poor health & temperament in rotts and still wanting a working rott I chose to immerse myself by necessity into pedigree research using ADRK Dogbase, KorBuchs, Korung videos etc.. During this same time I was doing a LOT of helper work around the country and in Germany and worked a lot of dogs and was able to see & feel the differences in genetics with the different bloodlines. Having worked the biggest USA / AWDF events the past few yrs, I did the same with GSD’s & Mals that I ‘personally’ liked. I would get a program at the event and after a flight if I had worked a dog I really liked I would check his name in my program. Upon my return home I would research the dogs which included GSD’s & Mals.. What I found was the same with rotts, strong dogs & bloodlines produced the same, over and over.. My favorite GSD line has been Nick vom Heilegenbosch: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/30754/Nick-vom-Heiligenboesch Very strong, hard dogs with monster grips and love to fight strong helpers..
> Mals I liked were mostly from this dog & bloodline: Turcodos van de Duvetorre: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1972/Turcodos-van-de-Duvetorre Very strong dogs, hard full grips & extremely fast, powerful strikers, screamers on the long bite..
> Linebreeding in rotts is the same as in GSD’s & Mals, find strong PROVEN dogs, especially bitches with power and use those dogs. Yes, in the 90’s and early 2000’s, the lines of Aki, Karo & the Sternbogen boys were in vogue & popular but due to the rott breed getting watered down temperament-wise the last several yrs and everyone looking for mastiff, sluggish statues for the Sieger show ring, the fire in the breed has been diminished..
> My favorite rott line by far is Noris vom Gruntenblick, a V1 ADRK Klubsieger, Bundessieger, Gekort bis EZA dogs who came from the perfect mix, IMO, of type & temperament and produced it.. Noris: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/36566/Noris-vom-Gruentenblick - he is heavily linebred on the F litter Gruntenblick and out of Addi vom Herrenholz. Noris’s Korung: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia_IQJkdnb8 Noris courage test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLCB2PGeFU8
> I have seen & worked some nice dogs that were not well bred that are handled by excellent handlers/trainers but the weak genetic component is still apparent to me.. Better to find your training style & pick a genetically strong dog that matches up.. My formula of intense research & actually working the dogs has been immensely helpful in assisting me with learning about the heart of these dogs.
> Just my opinion.. Hope it helps..


Much thanks for a good response Jim. Sounds like you have solid grounds and methods to base your opinions on. Thanks again.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jim, there seems to be a negative current about line breeding.


Where?


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby, off the 1st page only. I figured you could read the rest of the pages yourself.

". The lines are being line bred too strongly for my taste & believe they will be paying the piper soon. They came from a small gene pool after WWII, now they have tails which I don't care for." 

" More people are doing confirmation.. Line breeding is RAMPANT!!"

Just out of curiosity, which man made breeds started with large genepools?


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## Gillian Schuler

http://www.dogtrainingzvu.ch/Seite25.html

I watched this dog in training and was impressed by him. Dagmar Beständig is an extremely good dog handler. We had an extremely good helper and he put the dog on the bungee a few times. The dog gained from this exercise.

This dog was lithe and energetic, Just look at him jumping the hurdle!!

I have been to Rottweiler Character Tests over the years - starting off when the "Isolation Test" was used.

I would never buy one - I have seen Rottweilers that are too lethargic to bite - I have seen Rottweilers that are handlers have had trouble handling (?) but I have seen the good Rottweilers, such as Iron.


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## Jim Laubmeier

Iron is a very nice IFR Championship caliber working rott from Schweiz.. It is no wonder to me that he is a very tempermentful dog with his super working line rott genetics.. He is bred for work, obviously expertly handled & has received excellent helper work. Not many rotts bred like this anymore.. Iron has some of the pillars of the working rott lines in his pedigree.
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=104418

Congrats to Dagmar on an excellent dog!













Gillian Schuler said:


> http://www.dogtrainingzvu.ch/Seite25.html
> 
> I watched this dog in training and was impressed by him. Dagmar Beständig is an extremely good dog handler. We had an extremely good helper and he put the dog on the bungee a few times. The dog gained from this exercise.
> 
> This dog was lithe and energetic, Just look at him jumping the hurdle!!
> 
> I have been to Rottweiler Character Tests over the years - starting off when the "Isolation Test" was used.
> 
> I would never buy one - I have seen Rottweilers that are too lethargic to bite - I have seen Rottweilers that are handlers have had trouble handling (?) but I have seen the good Rottweilers, such as Iron.


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## Jim Laubmeier

Here are 2 of my favorite ADRK-imported North American working-line rotts. Zeus vom Turnleberg & Hajo vom Hause Porthun, both Max vom Turnleberg sons. Max has produced a large number of very tough, strong working rottweilers the last few yrs.. Both dogs are owned by friends of mine who appreciate temperament.. Enjoy the videos
Zeus SchH3 protection 98 ‘V’: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaqtjUSk-YE
Hajo H&B: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlNbhJpjOFE
Hajo Long Bite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XisZJ8wUc34&feature=related


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## Jim Laubmeier

Castor vom Hause Swiatecki - Wanted to share this one with everyone..
The only rottweiler I have seen at an ADRK Korung take down BOTH helpers..
Anton von Hein son, very strong dog..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcu4JkYu4U8&feature=related


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## Martin Koops

Had a Anton von Hein grand daughter in the eighties great dog. Speed, power and stability.
Have moved on to Malinois but that female was a standout in any breed I've seen.


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## Jim Laubmeier

Hi Martin,

Anton v Hein was a super dog himself.. Produced a few excellent dogs (Ambassador v Frienfels, Bodo & Biene v Oberhausener Norden & of course, Castor vh Swiatecki) - any dogsport handler would have loved these dogs regardless of breed.. 

On the subject of Aki vd Peeler Hutte & the 'tough' dogs, the trend in the late 80's became to try and mix the very high fight drive of the Aki blood with the extreme prey drive seen in Arri v Hertener Wappen.. This combo produced some excellent working dogs..
Here is Arri's Korung: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SccqD2iF9Zs&feature=related

The current problem now is that the rottweiler for various reasons has fallen out of favor as a Sch/IPO dog and has mostly become a show dog and bred only for breed type & extreme heads.. 
There are still some super working rottweilers out there but most look like working dogs as they should and are not popular in the show ring..






Martin Koops said:


> Had a Anton von Hein grand daughter in the eighties great dog. Speed, power and stability.
> Have moved on to Malinois but that female was a standout in any breed I've seen.


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## Martin Koops

Hi Jim, 
Spoke to a German Trainer in 2007 who had a Anton son in the eighties told me the dog was unshakable in any situation. Very much the same experience I had with my Female.

Would be very interested to get a Rottweiler again if I could get a Max Von T son but being in Australia our quarantine laws make this a very expensive proposition. That's not an option for me at this point.

Saw you liked Turcodos, my Malinois is very heavily line bred on him.


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## Jim Laubmeier

Understood Martin.. Re. Turcodos, how can you NOT love this??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MeWYKkomtY&feature=related
Working dogs like this for me is what makes helper work worthwhile - and fun..




Martin Koops said:


> Hi Jim,
> Spoke to a German Trainer in 2007 who had a Anton son in the eighties told me the dog was unshakable in any situation. Very much the same experience I had with my Female.
> 
> Would be very interested to get a Rottweiler again if I could get a Max Von T son but being in Australia our quarantine laws make this a very expensive proposition. That's not an option for me at this point.
> 
> Saw you liked Turcodos, my Malinois is very heavily line bred on him.


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## ben litchfield

heres a few clips of my 20month old bitch from hexental line.

1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=nsCzJqfa884

2)http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=_bKIdBr-dko

3)http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=CGG5arF6IDg


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## Gillian Schuler

Jim Laubmeier said:


> Iron is a very nice IFR Championship caliber working rott from Schweiz.. It is no wonder to me that he is a very tempermentful dog with his super working line rott genetics.. He is bred for work, obviously expertly handled & has received excellent helper work. Not many rotts bred like this anymore.. Iron has some of the pillars of the working rott lines in his pedigree.
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=104418
> 
> Congrats to Dagmar on an excellent dog!


Couldn't agree more, the helper in this case was the breeder of both our 2 GSDs but, unfortunately, he "retired" in 2007-8 and I didn't see Iron after this, just follwed his trail.

The helper was Alex Köpsel of Randegger Schloss and I wish he were still "helping".


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## Garland Whorley

Hey Skip, let me know what you want to see my dog(s) doing.. Just have clips of doing some exercises..Jumping in windows, dual attack.. control work etc. Trying to add pedigree, have to wait on my computer guy... One female I have is Gil Von Hause Milsped/Flora OD "Dragicevica" daughter.. Other is more Ruffhouse/heidenblut. Like I said, I am NOT much on the pedigree pushing however you can search the names if you like... I do not train for Sch/IPO/Modo or any other sport that AKC will recognize on pedigree..However I do personal protection.


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## Zakia Days

Christopher Smith said:


> And all titles are not the same. The trial, judge and hosting club make a huge difference. If a dog is going to big trials and consistently scoring well, it's most likely a good dog. Although it may not be a dog that suits everyone's taste.
> 
> To the original poster. I had Rottweilers for a long time and to be honest I don't think there are any lines that consistanly producing strong working dogs. You have some that produce more than others, but it's still a huge crap shoot. If I were looking for a Rottweiler and didn't want to go through a few puppies I would look for a young teenage dog.


This is so not true, as is evidenced by many of the dogs in Schutzhund and Ringsports"...If a dog is going to big trials and consistently scoring well, it's most likely a good dog."


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## Christopher Smith

So what top dogs have you worked? 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Skip Morgart

I also think it's a good idea to talk to national level helpers (like Jim Laubmeier and Clark Niematalo) who have actually worked tons of dogs at big events (all the breeds) and ask their opinions also. Jim is also a rott guy, and he knows the working lines better than anybody I know.


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## Dan Bowman

It was nice to see someone else appreciate this dog. I pull out this korung vid and watch castor's segment every couple of years.


Jim Laubmeier said:


> Castor vom Hause Swiatecki - Wanted to share this one with everyone..
> The only rottweiler I have seen at an ADRK Korung take down BOTH helpers..
> Anton von Hein son, very strong dog..
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcu4JkYu4U8&feature=related


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## Larry Krohn

I've had Rotties for a long time, along with german Shepherds. I,ve had a Dutch Shepherd and now have a Malinois. If you just want a great family protector go with the Rotty, they are still my favorite. Stable and loyal and a good one fears nothing but will also hang out with young children without a problem. As far as an extension dog, my penis has grown 3 inches since i started raising Rotties\\/


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## Christopher Smith

Larry Krohn said:


> As far as an extension dog, my penis has grown 3 inches since i started raising Rotties\\/


Mine has grown 5 inches since I stopped. :lol:


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## Lee H Sternberg

Christopher Smith said:


> Mine has grown 5 inches since I stopped. :lol:[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Length or width!:razz:


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## Dan Bowman

Lame for anyone to bring their dick into a conversation about good dogs, rottweilers or other. Reading through forum posts I see that the term "extension" is used. I hope it hasn't become part of today's dog vernacular. I'm one of those people who have a need for and will keep a strong dog. I don't care how that makes me appear to you. I do want you to be intimidated by my dog and stay away from my property.


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## Thomas Barriano

Dan,

What's lame is for some noob to post on a YEAR old thread and then whine like a little girl when the topic gets off track. 
You'll probably get more out of the WDF is you read more and type less.


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## Dan Bowman

Thomas, you have a flair for drama.


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## Larry Krohn

Dan Bowman said:


> Lame for anyone to bring their dick into a conversation about good dogs, rottweilers or other. Reading through forum posts I see that the term "extension" is used. I hope it hasn't become part of today's dog vernacular. I'm one of those people who have a need for and will keep a strong dog. I don't care how that makes me appear to you. I do want you to be intimidated by my dog and stay away from my property.


I agree Dan, I will always have strong protectors for my family. I couldn't sleep at night without them. Increasing the size of my penis is just a plus


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## Tanya Beka

There are great working lines out there, you just have to find them and investigate for what you are personally looking for. I want rottis with strong personality and stable friendly (for a rotti) lineage. A junkyard personality will make a difficult dog to work with.

Important to remember about rottweilers...train them like rottweilers! So many people want to treat a rotti like a GSD or malinois. They aren't shepherds, so don't train them like shepherds!


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## Thomas Barriano

Dan Bowman said:


> Thomas, you have a flair for drama.


You catch on quick, Jeff ;-)


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## Dan Bowman

Other than not being likely to want to play fetch I don't perceive any big differences in the end. If I needed a retrieve it would be a forced retrieve anyways. Very trainable dogs rottweilers, the training sticks for years. The execution of obedience commands is not sluggish. Some are more stubborn but just means I have to work through it. Stability and aggression is hard to find in any breed, but to me characterizes the rottweiler. I'm sure people have other requirements, for which my kind of rott won't be good. But it's extremely difficult to have one dog excel at more than one task, being as broad as protection dog already entails.


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## Larry Krohn

Dan Bowman said:


> Other than not being likely to want to play fetch I don't perceive any big differences in the end. If I needed a retrieve it would be a forced retrieve anyways. Very trainable dogs rottweilers, the training sticks for years. The execution of obedience commands is not sluggish. Some are more stubborn but just means I have to work through it. Stability and aggression is hard to find in any breed, but to me characterizes the rottweiler. I'm sure people have other requirements, for which my kind of rott won't be good. But it's extremely difficult to have one dog excel at more than one task, being as broad as protection dog already entails.


Dan, myRotty will chase a ball until he passes out, no lie. His ball drive is as high as any other breed. The whole reason I went to the Dutchie and Mal is because I do a lot of public demonstrations with my dogs and in the summer time my Rotty just can't handle the heat. He doesn't even do well in the spring. He gets so jacked up for work he is spent before we start. But I,ll say it again, there is no better family protector.


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## Dan Bowman

Larry, it's the bringing back I was referring to. The main disadvantage of it for me is that fetch is a great way to exercise the dog with minimal effort on my part, otherwise it makes no difference to me.

I'm looking for a dog now, I started a thread asking about rott breeders. If you know of someone good please post there.


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## Larry Krohn

Dan Bowman said:


> Larry, it's the bringing back I was referring to. The main disadvantage of it for me is that fetch is a great way to exercise the dog with minimal effort on my part, otherwise it makes no difference to me.
> 
> I'm looking for a dog now, I started a thread asking about rott breeders. If you know of someone good please post there.


Dan, I've worked with a couple of dogs from Stoney Creek Kennels in Georgia. Very stable, tough, and great drive


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## Dan Bowman

Thanks. ........................


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## James Kotary

Dan Bowman said:


> Other than not being likely to want to play fetch I don't perceive any big differences in the end. If I needed a retrieve it would be a forced retrieve anyways. Very trainable dogs rottweilers, the training sticks for years. The execution of obedience commands is not sluggish. Some are more stubborn but just means I have to work through it. Stability and aggression is hard to find in any breed, but to me characterizes the rottweiler. I'm sure people have other requirements, for which my kind of rott won't be good. But it's extremely difficult to have one dog excel at more than one task, being as broad as protection dog already entails.


When it comes to retrieving the ball my Bandit would never go for it. He would sit there like "you threw it, you go get it jerk". But every other thing I taught him he executes to perfection! When I am not home he protects my elderly grandmother. Now he doesn't go crazy and bark at people, but he will stand in between them and my grandmother and nudge them towards the door. He is 10 now and it is time for his retirement. I rescued a female and have begun to train her and she takes to commands quickly. She too has a problem with fetching! She will go to it, sometimes, but rarely brings it back. 
I have to think it is going to far away because Bandit would never go to far from me even when off the lead and out in the woods. He would go ahead of me and stop to look back and make sure I was coming. The loyalty of these dogs is amazing to me. They just want to please you so much that they do pick up on what you want them to do incredibly fast.


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## Connie Sutherland

_"When it comes to retrieving the ball my Bandit would never go for it."_

_"I rescued a female and have begun to train her and she takes to commands quickly. She too has a 
problem with fetching! She will go to it, sometimes, but rarely brings it back." 
__
"I have to think it is going to far away because Bandit would never go to far from me ... "_


How do you train the retrieve?


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## Lee H Sternberg

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"When it comes to retrieving the ball my Bandit would never go for it."_
> 
> _"I rescued a female and have begun to train her and she takes to commands quickly. She too has a
> problem with fetching! She will go to it, sometimes, but rarely brings it back."
> __
> "I have to think it is going to far away because Bandit would never go to far from me ... "_
> 
> 
> How do you train the retrieve?


The dog throws the ball and then James chases it. That's the right way isn't it?:-D


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## Connie Sutherland

Lee H Sternberg said:


> The dog throws the ball and then James chases it. That's the right way isn't it?:-D


:lol: :lol:

Bob has phrased it very succinctly. _ "The retrieve is not taught by throwing the item and hoping for the best." _

I like to train the retrieve. I back-chain it, even simple fetch for fun and exercise. 

But this is a thread under *Work Specific Discussion » Breeding » Rottweilers*, and I apologize for contributing to getting so off-topic.


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## Dan Bowman

Stumbled on this by chance. Here's a rott that's making me eat my words 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApzH8yWHs2Y


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## brad robert

Dan Bowman said:


> Stumbled on this by chance. Here's a rott that's making me eat my words
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApzH8yWHs2Y


That rottie has a nice head on him too.But i really hate that type of breathing on a dog it just sounds terrible for a working dog.But it is nice to see a rott retrieve as there seems to be few real retrivers over here they are around just not as obvious as other breeds maybe something that breeders should work on and with that would come many benefits.


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