# Training recall from decoy



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Buko's last trial went pretty well to a point, but the judge left us with an interesting training twist to help knotheads like Buko that want to fight the decoy. I thought it was interesting, and have never used it.

On the whistle the decoy keeps moving, and after 1/2 second stim is used with the e-collar, and the whistle continues until the dog returns.

The decoy starts to fight the dog, and then it progresses till the decoy not only is fighting the dog, but chases the dog a ways back towards the handler.

Not having had this problem at all until this trial, I hadn't really thought at all about this. In the past, I have not had to deal with the whistle recall, as it isn't part of anything I have done before.

Any variations on this theme? I am going to get this correct, and next trial I am sure Buko will find a way to do something else really interesting. :lol: 

The dog could really score high, although his tired fat old handler will take more points than necessary  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff, I ask this question solely out of ignorance. Are you referring to a sport dog?

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes if you read the last line of my post, it becomes blatantly apparent.      

I do Mondio Ring with Buko. I don't use my dogs for PP, although he would do that work as well. He has that kind of personality. The other dogs............. maybe one of them, but again no interest on my part.


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

Jeff
I am not sure I understand what you are doing, sorry?



> On the whistle the decoy keeps moving, and after 1/2 second stim is used with the e-collar, and the whistle continues until the dog returns.
> 
> The decoy starts to fight the dog, and then it progresses till the decoy not only is fighting the dog, but chases the dog a ways back towards the handler.


 Is this a call back after a out, or a call off before the bite? I don't understand the "decoy chasing the dog a ways back towards the handler."

Doug


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

In the ringsports after the bitework exersizes there is a recall. In the face and flee attack, there is a choice of whistle, or verbal command to return to the handler. There is not "out" then a whistle.

Buko (until this trial) was coming back to the whistle everytime. I have had problems with him with new decoys. I am not very interesting to him when they are around apparently. :lol: :lol: 

I had to go and get him off the decoy on each exersize. I am trying to simulate something close to the kind of stimulation he gets in a trial. The problem, is that on "our" decoys, he comes off on the whistle and returns no problem. 

I try to make it as much fun, and have a tug, or puppy sleeve for him to come back to, so I don't lose any "value" in the process of training.

In a trial, the decoy has to go still on the whistle, and without Buko having screwed this up before, we didn't do anything other than just this.

I am attempting to build from the decoy still moving on the whistle, all the way up to when Buko comes off to come back to me, the decoy can chase after him, and the dog will still return. 

Hopefully, by getting this carried away on decoys he will come back immediatly on, when we get to trial, he will just do the deed, and not think of staying to fight the guy.

Basically this is a long-winded way of saying that new decoys overstimulate the dog, and that old decoys don't put him in that hectic state.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Jeff the last thing I would do is have the decoy chase the dog back to you!! This could lead to bigger problems down the road. I had this problem in the past with a Sch dog. I used a long line and a prong, When I outed him I checked him all the way back to me. If the decoy continues to fight (in training) your dogs natural instinct is going to be to stay and fight back. No amount of outing, stim, whistles, prongs are going to help you with that. Have the decoy lock up (in training) and then recall the dog. Slowly get to where the decoy can continue to move before/during/and after the out command. Simple to complex. But I would seriously avoid having the decoy chase the dog back.

Matt Hammond
Quality K-9 Concepts


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree with Matt. Start slow, with the decoy freezing on the out command and work to movement. We have to work to the point the dog will out even during a fight, but it's a process that takes some building. I don't like the idea of the decoy chasing the dog back to the handler, as I see other problems develop from that, including the dog being hesitant to reattack if necessary. Of course, I'm speaking from a law enforcement trainer's perspective.

One question though, and I apologize in advance for my ignorance. When you say """I am trying to simulate something close to the kind of stimulation he gets in a trial.""" You are not referring to electrical stimulation, right? I don't get that, but the question did pop into my head. If my understanding of FR is correct, e -collars are not worn during trials.

DFrost


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Jeff,

If you're trying to get Buko to call off as close as possible to an active decoy, I would use a very long line with a shock absorber and a harness, to re-teach the exercise with new decoys. Buko should get stopped as close as possible without getting a bite AFTER your whistle. When he knows he can't get the bite, simultaneous to your whistle use a strongish ecollar stimulation until he turns. Slowly (after a bunch of reps), start a short delay between the whistle and the stimulation. If your dog respects you, it's just a matter of repetition. Keep the call off random, so he doesn't start to anticipate it. Talk to your decoy, so that if Buko was sent to bite, and he hesitates anticipating a call off, the decoy flees (or comes at the dog) depending on your dog's character.

Up until a few months ago, I had used a last minute barrier (like a tennis net), but the long line works better. So you associate the whistle to the end of the line, then the whistle and the stim to the end of the line, and finally, the stim disappears.

Then have the decoy increase the fight. It's fundamental to be able to call off your dog from a very active decoy in your sport...


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

Jeff
Sorry if I am misunderstanding you with this, but your problem is the dog outing and coming back to you (for the whistle) during a trial or on new decoys?

How collar wise is he to the e-collar?

Have you ever tried using your decoys and changing the environment? Say maybe work him in a dark building to raise the stakes a little by changing the environment? If this gets him cranked up unlike on the field with your old decoys, it would give you a chance to effectively correct him when the stakes are higher.

The other thing and I am sure you know this already, it sounds like you are dealing with a dog that takes things a bit to personal to be a good competition dog in your sport?

Doug


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

I know I am way out of my league here, but Jeff, when I used to take Anni to Mondio/French Ring here in Canada, there was a dog who was tooo sharp and tooo dominant and aggressive. The e-collar had minimal effect in training. So the dog could never trial. One man came up with an idea to bring in a second decoy at the point of the whistle. The sharp dog would effectively leave the first decoy and direct his attention to the second decoy enough that he got used to the initial decoy moving behind him. Gradually he came back on the whistle. They said it was like breaking an "old habit" by giving the dog something new to work with. Taking away his huge aggression towards the one decoy.
Some people have noted very rightly that in the other sports and for PP, the dog should never be recalled from an active attack or the decoy chasing. This is right, in my oh so limited experience. lol
But in the Mondio sport, the dog's are soooo highly trained to ignore all stimuli on the handler's command. That is one of the very things that make the sport different. It's amazing to watch a "usually Malinois" dog do the sport. In a real life situation, I am sure these dogs would never let anyone down. Part of being a great Mondio dog is their built in drives. They are fast as lightning and very reactive.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> Some people have noted very rightly that in the other sports and for PP, the dog should never be recalled from an active attack or the decoy chasing.


 The dog must be recalled WHEN the handler commands it, regardless of the decoy's attitude or behavior. It's quite difficult for the dog to differentiate between an attack...and the reaction from an innocent bystander if he's bitten accidentally. The dog needs to know how to abort an attack...period...specially if he's a PPD or a PSD.

Regarding a decoy chasing...let me give a (local) example. I send my dog on a person, the person pulls a machete from his pant leg, I recall my dog, the person tries to chase the dog to cut him. The dog needs to recall. Period.

I view the recall as a compliance exercise, not a motivational one.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Oh good, thanks, I didn't know this was universal in all training. I learn something new all the time. The dogs in Kenya wheres sure not that responsive in 1981. It would have been nice. Sometimes I saw things go too far, I vomitted one day after a bad mauling occured. The handlers had to go pull the dogs off a poacher when they were deployed on them. It wasn't often, but I really like your way better. It does make sense, I just didn't know it was common, thanks.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> If your dog respects you, it's just a matter of repetition.
> 
> Andres point out the problem here, the dog has no respect for you. The dog must recall either the decoy is active or passive, this is an obedience command.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, thanks for responding everyone.

1, I don't have a huge supply of decoys to work Buko on, so new ones are hard to come by.

2, On our club decoys, he comes back perfectly if they go still.

3, The decoy running behind the dog, and then kinda buttonhooking off to the side is what I was talking about, not really chasing. Sorry, definately not the best description there.

4, Buko is a really high drive dog. Maybe he doesn't respect me, but it looks a lot more like he is so focused on what ever it is he is trying to do to the decoy that he just doesn't hear me. The judge described it as unconcious. I thought that was pretty accurate.

5, Andres, the call off was suggested as a way of slowing Buko down. One of the decoys last trial had some problems with his speed, and the fact that Buko centers. It is hard for new decoys to have faith that he will in fact end up targeting to your shoulder. Hell, I am his buddy and he nearly kills me once a training session with this rediculous centering thing he does. :roll: 

6, Buko is a really weird mix of really high drive, but also really high willingness. I hope I am describing it right, but he will do as you ask almost no matter what. This is what makes trialing him so interesting. It is strange to get ignored.

7, I will try to find a building to work him in. 

8, Doug, I have been working real hard to avoid thinking about what you said about Buko taking things too personally. :twisted: This is such a weird dog. As a baby I was told he didn't want to bite. When I first got him, he was ten months old. He didn't want anything to do with the biteobject once it was not on you anymore. I worked really hard to get him to see this as a game. I thought it had worked until last trial.


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