# Different training scenarios??



## Greg Long

I thought it would be cool if everyone posted the different PPD training scenarios that they use.Or at least their favorite one.

Personally I like to have the decoy hide in an undisclosed location and then try to sneak up on me and my dog.Not only should the dog defend but the dog should alert on the threat long before it is obvious to me where he is.The variations of this excercise are endless.

Greg


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## Patrick Murray

I'm not pro here but my guess is that one who doesn't put their PPD dog into various scenarious may not have a finished product. A PPD dog should, IMHO, be exposed to different scenarios, such as a guy coming through the front door, a window, the car, etc. while making as much noise as possible, clanging a wrench against a metal garbage can lid and things like that. 

With that said, my favorite scenario is a simple one. And that is to have the decoy wearing a hidden sleeve and hanging out with me in my family room watching a ball game. And we actually sit there, with the dog in or near the room, and talk normal things. After a while (an hour-?) the decoy and I have an argument and things get pretty heated but there are no blows. Things cool down and then are back to normal. A bit later things erupt again and I am struck. 

I like this scenario because the dog is initially relaxed around the decoy for some time before anything happens. It seems a bit more realistic to me than some guy coming out of nowhere, unarmed and attacking me while I'm walking a GSD. There's nothing wrong with that scenario and it should be practiced too, but I like simulating situations that are more likely to occur, especially with some of my rowdy, knucklehead friends. :lol:


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## Al Curbow

Aren't you worried that your dog will bite the badguy somewhere other than the hidden sleeve arm?
AL


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## Connie Sutherland

Patrick Murray said:


> I'm not pro here but my guess is that one who doesn't put their PPD dog into various scenarious may not have a finished product. A PPD dog should, IMHO, be exposed to different scenarios, such as a guy coming through the front door, a window, the car, etc. while making as much noise as possible, clanging a wrench against a metal garbage can lid and things like that. .....With that said, my favorite scenario is a simple one. And that is to have the decoy wearing a hidden sleeve and hanging out with me in my family room watching a ball game....


(I am 100% new to PP training.) After that, after the out, will he be OK around that person again? Or is that person always under suspicion now? Or maybe a suspect only when he's in your home?

Also, would he be different if the person took off the sleeve and gave it to him after he bit? Would that make him know that it was a practice?

If this is so stupid that there are no answers, that's OK. I'm just starting to watch Sch training; I know I know zero about anything besides obedience.


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## Greg Long

That would depend on the dog and his training.IMO if the dog thought it was real,that person is from that point on a suspect.
I would not be slipping the sleeve if the dog is that far advanced that you are doing realistic scenarios.
He should be OK afterwards if you tell him its ok but he should remain aware of the possibilty of a reattack.But Im no expert.Anyone else?

Greg


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## Connie Sutherland

Greg Long said:


> That would depend on the dog and his training.IMO if the dog thought it was real,that person is from that point on a suspect.
> I would not be slipping the sleeve if the dog is that far advanced that you are doing realistic scenarios.
> He should be OK afterwards if you tell him its ok but he should remain aware of the possibilty of a reattack.But Im no expert.Anyone else?...
> Greg


Thanks, Greg.....this was EXACTLY what I wanted to learn, and was always afraid to ask before! (Not qualified to post on the thread....you know.)


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## Guest

I was going to say the same thing, and thought I'd better check that Greg hadn't said it, and good thing! He had. I'm new, too, Connie, but it would only seem logical that it would depend on the dog and the reason the dog is biting the person in the first place. I think about my dog (the only one I have experience with) and he's kind of in the middle. If you're not threatening him, he ignores you. One night after a long day with Greg (any day's a long day with Greg-get it? Pun? :lol: ) Caleb was definitely edgy to him later on in the house. He \"came out\" toward him more than he had all day, just because he stepped toward him or looked at him. Caleb was sleeping and he'd jump up all hostile when Greg approached, so I'd definitely have to say the potential is there for the dog to, at the very least, mistrust the decoy for a while. OTOH, a dog biting only in prey and fun-n-games isn't going to \"hold a grudge\". It's the sleeve he likes, and the game; he's not truly engaged defensively against the decoy. Shoot me if I'm wrong. :wink:


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## Greg Long

Bang!

A long day is when Jenni leaves her purse at a restuarant and doesnt remember it until they are almost closed(midnight) and you have to go get it. :x 

Another factor that I feel is very important is how strongly the dog is bonded to you or if he works for himself.


Greg


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## Guest

Jenni went too, and she was just as tired as Greg :wink: . I am low maintenance...hardly ever carry the damn things...just forgot  .


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## Bob Scott

I also don't know squat about PPD training, so here's a greeny question. Wouldn't it be better to do lots of muzzle work in the real life scenarios, rather than have a dog do only arm bites (hidden sleeve)? 
I realize dogs can also get wise to training if they have a muzzle on, but we train terriers for racing, by wearing the muzzle off and on all day. It's very obvious when you see the dogs that wear the muzzle ONLY at race time. They start freaking out to load up in the boxes. Couldn't this same thing be done with PPD dogs?


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## Al Curbow

I haven't done many scenarios due to the age factor, but i'd be worried my pup in patricks scenario would bite the first available body part, if it happens not to be the hidden sleeve arm, oops! Big expense. If i have company he's put in the crate and the door is closed, he doesn't like people,
AL


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## Hil Harrison

Tell the truth I dont know exactly either what PPD training involves or what the equivelent is here. Will have to go google I think, unless someone can maybe make a sticky with a definition for me  Hint! :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

PPD = Personal Protection Dog
i.e. a Dog trained to protect and bite for REAL in a REAL situation, not just sport. Alot of IPO dogs have problems that if there is no sleeve they don't know what to do. Dogs training for PPD and also police service dogs do work on hidden sleeves and muzzles with no equipment on the decoy to \"test\" their dogs ability to truly protect under stress, anywhere, anytime, on any decoy. ASR is a ringsport designed to test PPD's, muzzle attacks are part of the testing in ASR, as well as hidden sleeve tests.

There is no \"true\" way to train a PPD, it's personal preference, since it's not a sport you can train your dog how you want, you can train to bite someones ankle, or someones wrist, or someones face (a little difficult I'm sure :lol and nobody will disqualify you because it's your choice, if your dog doesn't have a perfect Out, it doesn't matter because you're not losing points in a sport, it's basically freestyle protection training. However, a well trained PPD in my opinion is a dog that should be able to participate, to some extent, in a \"Real World\" protection sport, such as ASR, PSA, or even KNPV -- KNPV is alot more intensive though, there are alot more exercises and it is alot more thorough, and also trains exercises that are perhaps not useful to a private citizen to care about in a personal protection dog. ASR/PSA and other real world protection sports set a standard or a guideline for what you should be training a PPD to do, that way you don't have a dangerous junkyard dog that wants to kill everyone with no control -- but it instead requires that your dog has obedience skills, and that the dog can Out and return to the handler when called off the decoy, as well as remain in a down/stay away from the handler until the decoy assaults the handler. ASR Level 1 also required (if I remember correctly) a muzzle attack and hidden sleeve exercise (or maybe that's level 2??), and requires for the dog to search for the decoy in the woods, so the dog must have some ability to find a person in hiding... maybe that's also ASR level 2, I don't remember, check out the rules on www.AmericanStreetRing.org .


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## Greg Long

You had better have someone who knows what there doing,the decoy I mean.You can present the hidden sleeve arm if you need to.A hidden suit would be better along with muzzle work.

It takes training to make the dog stable in non threatening situations.

A dog will also learn where the hidden sleeve is if you dont mix up the training and a really nasty dog will go around the hidden sleeve.

Greg


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## Hil Harrison

Thanks Mike for clearing that up. I wasn't sure if the PPD was active in sport.....now I know


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## David Frost

I've found one of the best way to come up with training scenarios: The daily newspaper. Just read and see what has been happening relative assaults etc, location, time, type of assault, number of people involved. Unfortuneately in todays society, there seems to be a never ending supply of new ideas. I do the same with our police service dogs, only its a review of incident reports.

DFrost


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## Guest

Interesting, David.  That's about as real as it comes!  

I agree about muzzle work and a hidden suit. All this talk about equipment and liablility and all that has its place, but with my new purchase  , I've been asking lots of PPD questions. Everyone agrees that muzzle training is a drag. To do it properly, you're not wearing any equipment, and I've heard bones have been broken by good dogs  . The theory obviously is that to *properly* train a PPD and be sure it will work for REAL, you MUST do scenarios with no equipment. Risky, sure. But, especially where a former sport dog is concerned, you need to be sure that the dog will bite w/out it, so it's necessary evil. Having said that, I think there are probably very few people in this country training true PPDs, and that's probably why you don't hear much about no-equipment training, muzzlework, etc.


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## Greg Long

Jenni Williams said:


> Interesting, David.  That's about as real as it comes!
> 
> I agree about muzzle work and a hidden suit. All this talk about equipment and liablility and all that has its place, but with my new purchase  , I've been asking lots of PPD questions. Everyone agrees that muzzle training is a drag. To do it properly, you're not wearing any equipment, and I've heard bones have been broken by good dogs  . The theory obviously is that to *properly* train a PPD and be sure it will work for REAL, you MUST do scenarios with no equipment. Risky, sure. But, especially where a former sport dog is concerned, you need to be sure that the dog will bite w/out it, so it's necessary evil. Having said that, I think there are probably very few people in this country training true PPDs, and that's probably why you don't hear much about no-equipment training, muzzlework, etc.



I dont agree that muzzle work is a drag.I love it!

The only safety issues I get worried about is high back bites or upper chest bites in a suit.If you get on the ground, Ive had several dogs start working their way around to my head.This DOES make me nervous. All the dogs Ive had this happen with were experienced PSDs.

A friend of mine has Mal.He is pretty sleeve happy if there is a sleeve around.He has only been worked in a suit a very few times.We let him have a suit bite one time and expected him to either not know what to do or target the arm.He bit the shoulder of the suit and took me down hard...no hesistation!Pound for pound this is the strongest dog Ive ever worked.He doesnt even get worked anymore but if you think he wont engage a decoy,suspect,aggressor, or your mouthy neighbor :wink:....you are sadly mistaken.

Greg


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## Guest

Sadly, PAINFULLY, mistaken. I think I know who you mean... 8) . WOW  . This dog is no spring chicken, either. I think taking bites is fun; count me out on Beretta. That dog seemed to love the sleeve, but it seemed more like he just was looking for an excuse to bite, and the sleeve was it. Speed, strength, holy shit....


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## Greg Long

That dog can be hard on you when you work him with a sleeve.Ive never done muzzle work with him.Im not sure if he has done any.

Some idiot tried to beat that dog off a sleeve once trying to make him look bad.My friend didnt know he was going to hit the dog or he would have never allowed it.He used a piece of hose but the dog never came off the bite.The only thing it did was make him spin to the left on the sleeve.Not a bad thing in PPD.

Some dogs you KNOW will bite for real.Its the ones that are iffy that make me nervous.

Greg


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

My favorite workout and I think should be basic to civilian handlers is multiple attack. I am in the belief that no person in his right mind will ever attack you with a protection dog. If someone does, don't engage. He may be out of his mind and I better avoid, unless the guy poses a real threat.


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## Howard Gaines III

One of the things that we do, the DELMARVA WORKING DOG GROUP, is to provide different environments for the bite work. A few weeks ago, we did area searches where the dog had to air scent and find the decoy in a hedgerow. Upon flushing the "bad guy" the dog was rewarded with the bite. Dogs with weak nerves or aviodance issues, going into the unknown, stay out of the brush and bark at the guy in the weeds. This was a cool exercise to do while ticks and other bugs are not out. We did it off line, but you could do it with a 50' lead.


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## Jerry Lyda

OK this original post is very old. 
ASR is still out there but not sure if anything is being done as for as trials.

Check out APPDA for PPD. We do have a sport that will title dogs that can pass these tests. Not easy but fair.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jerry,
Do you do any training with *4'x4'x4' boxes*. Bad guy runs and hides in one and dog kicks the door down and eats the dirtball? Or something like that...


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## Jerry Lyda

Something like that. 
Example: I come home and someone is in my house. (In the real world the doors and windows would be shut.) In this case a window is open, the window the bad guy went into. We use a 10 x 10 kennel that the front is made like a wall. It has a window and a door. The dog is sent inside and finds the bad guy through the window. Inside the room is boxes, plastic bottles and anything else that may be in there, plastic tarp, anything. Many times a combination of these items. This is also used in the PSD side.


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## Howard Gaines III

I went up to Castle K9 in Pa. and Franco had a corner section with plastic bottles and jugs in it. He then threw a ball into the junk for the dog to find. I thought that was interesting. I would have used beer bottles!=D>


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## jay lyda

Howard Gaines III said:


> I would have used beer bottles!=D>


Empty ones at that. :grin:


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## Dan Long

jay lyda said:


> Empty ones at that. :grin:


No doubt, preferably emptied by me!

I'm still new to this, and so is my dog, so I don't want to push him past what he's done in training. I have a cop friend whose dog was just retired and he still wants to train, so I've had him come over and we do "bad guy in the yard" stuff. He'll hide somewhere, I'll be inside with the dog, and let him out to go find the bad guy. We also do attack on handler stuff, with the dog in a down, and then he attacks me, and the dog engages without any command.


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## David Winners

Al Curbow said:


> Aren't you worried that your dog will bite the badguy somewhere other than the hidden sleeve arm?
> AL


Sure, I'll take a look

David Winners


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## David Winners

David Winners said:


> Sure, I'll take a look
> 
> David Winners


This posted to the wrong thread.

David Winners


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## Lars Vallin

David Frost said:


> I've found one of the best way to come up with training scenarios: The daily newspaper. Just read and see what has been happening relative assaults etc, location, time, type of assault, number of people involved. Unfortuneately in todays society, there seems to be a never ending supply of new ideas. I do the same with our police service dogs, only its a review of incident reports.
> 
> DFrost


Good idea Mr Frost. Use real life examples, situations that have and DO happen. I too do the same with my PSD. Why train for things that will likely not happen or simply look good in a public Demo.


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