# Swinburn dogs



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As I dislike being told I'm incorrect but am not informed of the correct information, I'm posting a web site which assumes the Swinford dogs are pit bulls x Mastino Napoletanos.

If I'm incorrect, or the author of the web site, please correct me. Not with "you are not correct" but with evidential information. If this is lacking, then Lee Robinson, please re-track from "you are not correct".

http://www.molossermania.com/brd/b/b001/history.html

Thank you.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Very informative article.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Very good article! I googled them as I was curious to the breed origination as well and came up with the same cross that you posted. 

Courtney


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Shit, Gillian you’re like a web searching ninja… 
The picture of the little girl with the GS in your photo gallery is great


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Swinford's program used the APBT, not "bull terrier" and also it was based upon the English Mastiff. The Neapolitan was used, but very littlle. It was actually brought into the program not by Swinford, but by Martin Lieberman. View this website for more information. We have DOZENS of photos as well...and should we ever meet I will show them to you as I have them on my laptop, but I am not putting the additional photos or documentation on my website until I learn how to copyright protect my information...as people have already stolen several Swinford photos from me, such as the one with Octavia (the EM).

http://www.swinfordbandog.com


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Is there anything written by Swinford himself? Did he keep any records at all? Everything seems to be someone else describing what he was doing. I find that one quote from the magazine interesting. An all purpose guard dog and a game fighting dog.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

The original "original" written standard of Swinford's program was written by John B. Swinford himself, and then this was revised by Lieberman to later become the "final" "orginal" standard. Then that was revised to become the modern SSDA version adopted version of the breed standard. The revisions didn't alter the substance or description of the dogs themselves, but just the wording and clarity. Also, there is documentation on the various breedings. Due to plagerism being so common, as people too often steal information without giving the original sources credit for the information, we have not madethe majority of these photos or original records public and will not do so until either our website is copyright protected (proofed from people who steal information) or documented in our book...which will be printed at a later date. We have presented enough to clarify any confusion and to correct some of the false reports, but the remaindure of the information will not go public until it is protected from plagerism and release dated.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Did he ever address or comment on the dog fighting side of it?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Steve Strom said:


> Did he ever address or comment on the dog fighting side of it?


 
I think it is clear he was a dog fighter. The "Sporting Dog Jounal" Is/Was a dog fighting Fanzine and Carl S. Wrote about Swinford because of Bantu's fighting ability.

But he "loved" the dogs.....:?


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

You know KS...you really shouldn't assume things you don't know about people that are not here to defend themselves. He bred to several of Kelly's dogs, but Swinford himself did not keep pit dogs. Kelly was the owner and editor of the SDJ. 

Also, I don't believe in judging people of yesterday with today's standards. I certainly don't condone the actions and beliefs of many of history's people. For example, most of us can appreciate the positives contributions and civil liberties acknowledged and protected by the founding father's that developed our country, but certainly wouldn't condone the double standards they practiced towards others (women and minorities at the time). People back then were raised with different belief systems and saw things back then on a daily basis that would shock a lot of us today...and therefore, they shouldn't be judged by our standards. 

Also, there are things today that people back then would have been blown away by...for example, abortion and gay rights. Today, people see these things every day on the news and are often desensitized by them. If such things would have been discussed back then they would have considered hanging you for such thoughts.

Times change. Morality and belief systems change as well. Now, right and wrong may not change, but beliefs about what's right and wrong certainly does. We can't change what they did right or what they did wrong anymore than they can change what we do right or wrong.

HOWEVER, we can acknowledge their contributions and learn from their mistakes.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> You know KS...you really shouldn't assume things you don't know about people that are not here to defend themselves. He bred to several of Kelly's dogs, but Swinford himself did not keep pit dogs. Kelly was the owner and editor of the SDJ.
> 
> Also, I don't believe in judging people of yesterday with today's standards. I certainly don't condone the actions and beliefs of many of history's people. For example, most of us can appreciate the positives contributions and civil liberties acknowledged and protected by the founding father's that developed our country, but certainly wouldn't condone the double standards they practiced towards others (women and minorities at the time). People back then were raised with different belief systems and saw things back then on a daily basis that would shock a lot of us today...and therefore, they shouldn't be judged by our standards.
> 
> ...


 
Bla Bla Bla.

Lets See:

FACT : Jack Kelly was a well known dog fighter

FACT: Jack posted an article in the SDJ because of John's Bantu's fighting ability

FACT: the SDJ was a dog fighting publication

FACT: Carl S. wrote about this in his book BECAUSE of Bantu's Fighting ability.

FACT: John Swinford was a participant in a Dog Fighting


Can't be more clear than that although I have my own beliefs on the subject they bare no relation to the FACTS!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lee maybe you can answer this:


After you scrapped the Idea of creating a Chimera Bull dog when/why did you decide to name a recreated creation after a Dead Man who died young under suspisious conditions and who's only know name to fame was the creation of a "game" or good fighting "Bandogee"?


If Carl S. and Jack Kell didn't choose to write abut John and Bantu he would be just another unknown sad story.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dang Kyle Ive noticed you don't care fore Lee to much some bad blood or just a bone to pick You are relentless and Lee sure is tenacious


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Dang Kyle Ive noticed you don't care fore Lee to much some bad blood or just a bone to pick You are relentless and Lee sure is tenacious


 
If you could only see the Flury of PMs. He has Lied many times here about me and others. He can come clean OR.......... I have a low tolerence for BS!

Even more scarry Is I am starting to think he believes his own BS? I thought he was just out to sell Pups before!:-k


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

History is history. Also, Swinford was not a "dogfighter." He didn't even own pit dogs. You don't know him and you don't know why Kelly wrote about him. You have never even read the complete original articles about Swinford and his work. Your motive to attack him has little to do with him and everything to do with your desire to talk trash about me. If you were all about the dogs, you would accept the history of what happened 40 years ago and leave the past behind, but that is not what you do. Instead, you like to throw mudd as apparently you lack real value in life. Now...if you want to judge some inappropriate behaviors, why not first start with your very own behavior.

Also, being I grew up among educated professionals, I was taught not to plagerize. One gives credit to where credit is due...good or bad. History is history. Some times we have to accept what we can't change, but change what we can change. We can't change the past...only the future.

Once again...you dismiss logic, as you come repeatedly come unprepaired.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> History is history. Also, Swinford was not a "dogfighter." He didn't even own pit dogs. You don't know him and you don't know why Kelly wrote about him. You have never even read the complete original articles about Swinford and his work. Your motive to attack him has little to do with him and everything to do with your desire to talk trash about me. If you were all about the dogs, you would accept the history of what happened 40 years ago and leave the past behind, but that is not what you do. Instead, you like to throw mudd as apparently you lack real value in life. Now...if you want to judge some inappropriate behaviors, why not first start with your very own behavior.
> 
> Also, being I grew up among educated professionals, I was taught not to plagerize. One gives credit to where credit is due...good or bad. History is history. Some times we have to accept what we can't change, but change what we can change. We can't change the past...only the future.
> 
> Once again...you dismiss logic, as you come repeatedly come unprepaired.


 

You "don't know him either, you were not even BORN when he died or were shitting in Diapers. I am questioning YOU as to your alleged involvement with the NAME of a DEAD man who's only clam to fame was ONE dog he produced was a "game" fighter, and his association with the dog fighting culture at the time.

The FACTS are the FACTS!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lee maybe you could address the FACTS one at at time:

WAS Jack Kelly a dog fighter?

Was the SDJ a dog fighting Publication?

Did John fight his dog Bantu?

Didn't Carl S. Wright about Bantu in his book about his fighting ability?

Did Jack publigh an article in the SDJ about Bantu's Figiting ability?



Can't make it any more simple for you


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

The fact is you don't have ALL the facts. You take bits and pieces to assemble to your liking. That is what a good liar does. He takes a little bit of truth to form a fabrication so others will believe it. You're just rambling in despiration, lonliness, and lack of purpose. If you had purpose in life, you would be productive instead of attempting to spread fabricated assumptions about someone you know nothing about. You don't know the facts and you don't know what type of documentation and records I have gathered over the decades...and you don't know many of the associates Swinford was involved with that I have gotten to know. You think you know, but you don't. Much information has remained private and will continue to do so until it is copyright protected. Enough said...good night. Oh, and good luck finding purpose in your life.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

You guys should just get together, punch the crap out of each other and get on with life.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> The fact is you don't have the facts. You're just rambling in despiration, lonliness, and lack of purpose. If you had purpose in life, you would be productive instead of attempting spreading assumptions about someone you know nothing about. You don't know the facts and you don't know what type of documentation and records I have gathered over the decades...and you don't know many of the associates Swinford was involved with that I have gotten to know. You think you know, but you don't. Much information has remained private and will continue to do so until it is copyright protected. Enough said...good night. Oh, and good luck finding purpose in your life.


 
Oh Yes!

The Secret Classified John Bayard Swinford Files! LMAO.............=D>

DUMMY this shit came from your own Site! #-o


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Adam, 

Better yet, we should get together and work some dogs. I think all this personal nonsense is a waste of time when instead topics should be kept about the dogs. KS loves getting off topic with irrelivent nonsense. I think he is one of those people that only feels good about himself when he attacks someone else. He needs purpose in his life.

KS,

Like I said, you don't have all the information. The information on my website is only part of the story to address some things that need to be addressed. As I said, you don't have all the information because you don't know the original people involved and you have not read the original documentations in full. That will be released in time. I hope you are around then to see it. In the mean time, find a purpose.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> Adam,
> 
> Better yet, we should get together and work some dogs. I think all this personal nonsense is a waste of time when instead topics should be kept about the dogs. KS loves getting off topic with emotional nonsense. I think he is one of those people that only feels good about himself when he attacks someone else. He needs purpose in his life.
> 
> ...


 
All you need to do is Be HONEST Lee! The truth will set you FREE!


What does the Good Book Say about False Idols? LOL


Just answer the questions and stop the Avoidance! You will feel much better tomorrow I promis!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

EVERYBODY!
We can disagee with one another. If that happens say why and ask for an answer without trying to insult one another. It's ******* childish. 
There will be no name calling. Liar, etc
If you don't like the answers then DROP IT!
Continuing to bait one another is not only nonproductive, it's bullsit! 
That's not what this site is all about!
No replies needed or wanted cause I ain't gonna take sides on this kindergarden crap!


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Bob, I agree.

KS, I have but 1 God...the Lord. The Creator. What I reported is as accurate as I know it...and I certainly know more about his work than you or anyone you know. Swinford was only a man. An imperfect one, as all of us are. But, I am not going to plagerize his work. I don't agree with or condone everything he has done, but there is no documentation anywhere that I have gathered that suggests him to be an active dogfighter. He did unfortuantely roll a few dogs and that information is on my website, as well as my opinion of that behavior. But, as I said before...you gotta take the good with the bad.That doesn't mean you have to like it or approve of it. The primary purpose of his program was to produce an incredible guard dog...to recreate the working mastiff. You acknowledge their contributions and learn from their mistakes. However, it is not what you are trying to imply. You don't have all the information. Now...give it a rest and find a more productive purpose for your life.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Lee, what in his own words led you to the conclusion he was trying to breed the ultimate guardian and not just a bigger fighting dog? Is there something in writing locked away in a hidden vault where his intentions are clear and absolute?


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

The standard describes the dog entirely about the ability to serve as a guard dog, and gives NO referrence to dog fighting. Most of the public referrences illustrate his desire to produce a guad dog, but do to the emotional nature of human "shock and awe" the more public articles focussed on the wrong spot light. Kind of typical of media sources.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Here is an article I found indicating that he was a dogfighter trying to breed bigger better fighting dogs...He started by using Neos and then because Bantu, his best dog in the pit came from a breeding between an English mastiff and an APBT he started crossing those. 



> Sadly, in modern times most people have heard of the Bandog and relate them to the dog fighter John Swinford. Had he not had his name published in print he would have faded into obscurity, just as his dogs did. It is commonly believed that a Neapolitan Mastiff cross Pit bull is a true Swinford Bandog, however Dr. Swinford found the Neo to be lacking for his needs, and his best dog Bantu was actually from an English Mastiff bitch by a Pit bull. http://bandogmastiffs.blogspot.com/2006/04/bandog-article-written-by-katrina.html


Another account of Bantu in the pit and what John Swinford was breeding for. 


> A fight between the most powerfull and agressive Rottweiler that could be found versus a Swinford Bandog named Bantu.The Rotty was located in Puerto Rico. The Rotty had killed quite a few attack dogs in kennel fights and had a reputation for great strength and for relentless attacks on other dogs. The Rotty was brought to the U.S., where both it and Bantu were conditioned and trained for a match. Both dogs weighed about 125-130 pounds. Bantu the Bandog quickly and severely defeated the Rotweiller. The fight had to be stopped after a few minutes to save the Rotweiller's life. After the dogs were seperated the Rotty could not be forced to look at its opponent while the Swinford Bandog fought furiously to get at the Rottweiler. Bantu the Bandog was half American Pitbull terrier and half English Mastiff.
> 
> These comments are part of an article on Swinfords dogs as written by Jack Kelly:
> 
> ...


Here is another article about the Swinford and breeding etc. Scroll down on the link to this heading. 


> Bandogges History A Breed in Progress by Martin J. Leiberman http://bandogmastiffs.blogspot.com/


I most certainly would say that Mr. Swinford was a dogfighter or at the very least dabbled in it from time to time. Jack Kelly was a large figure in the APBT world. His dogs were/are very well known. I found more than one account of where John "Jack" Kelly talks about Swinford rolling his dogs and matching them. 

Thought somebody might be interested in learning more about the Swinford. 

Courtney


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Courtney,

Katrina has an interesting program that is based upon the use of the Neapolitan. She contacted me years ago and after I provided some information to her about Swinford's real program she also attempted to HELP CORRECT the false reports about overstated use of the Neapolitan in Swinford's program. Notice she states "it is COMMONLY BELIEVED," but then goes onto correct that incorrect common belief by reporting the accurate fact that the primary breedings of Swinford were based upon the EM and APBT. The one part of her report that is misleading is when she says Swinford found the Neo lacking (although that was true), this was AFTER he had already experienced success with the EM and Katrina didn't make that point clear. He didn't go from Neo to EM...instead he focussed on the EM, while Lieberman brought in the Neopolitan. They tried it but were not completely satisfied with the results of the Neapolitan x APBT crosses. They did produce some dogs that were a result of APBT x EM x Neo that they were improved mastiffs. Again, in time more of the truth on this will be revealed both in photos and documentation...but not until it is copywrite protected. Too many people have taken photos and information from my site without referrencing the source...and then pretend they got the information some where else when they in fact couldn't have. As, some of this information is from private collections and never been released before...until given to me. I put very little of this information on my website (you do not see the standard there, you don't see the original documents, and you only see 1 or 2 of the photos obtained from that private collection) on my site and next thing you know people have taken information from there and used it elsewhere and without referrence. The majority of this information therefore will be protected more carefully...as to credit the appropriate parties.

I have been researching his work since the early 90's...and dedicated a great deal of work to gathering the original information...the majority of which has never been released and is not in the hands of anyone. This information includes a vast number of original documents and photos about the program. It is information that no one knows I have except the person that gave it to me. This person is not yet named on my website and won't be until I find out how to copywrite protect the information. They will also be credited in the book. There have been enough false reports that the only responsible thing to do here is to release the truth and to protect the the original documents and photos.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Woooh,
I like secrets. 
Do tell Lee, what is the big mystery about copyrighting? You'll never have any more protection from thieves and plagiarizers then anyone of the others bazillion PUBLISHED authors out there. Whether in dead tree form or electronically as here.
So register your copyright. Presto you'll be free to tell the untold story.

And if it turns out that the material is SO valuable that everyone and their bother wants to steal it, do what every other author does, hire a bad ass GSD of an attorney to pursue the scum.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've found this thread quite interesting learning about the swineford dogs, interesting links!

Re the copyright issue Lee, did the mysterious person who presented you with these docs and pics have a right to copyright?

Why do you seek copyright on pics and information you yourself did not create/produce?

Just curious!

Thanks


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## Lori Longardino (Apr 4, 2009)

Or better yet Lee, is marty aware of your pending book? Wonder what he would have to say behind closed doors about all this.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lori Longardino said:


> Or better yet Lee, is marty aware of your pending book? Wonder what he would have to say behind closed doors about all this.


Interesting, looks like Mr. Robinson may be guilty of a little Copyright violation on his own website.


"U.S. Copyright law is quite explicit that the making of what are called "derivative works" -- works based or derived from another copyrighted work -- is the exclusive province of the owner of the original work. This is true even though the making of these new works is a highly creative process. If you write a story using settings or characters from somebody else's work, you need that author's permission. 
Yes, that means almost all "fan fiction" is arguably a copyright violation. If you want to publish a story about Jim Kirk and Mr. Spock, you need Paramount's permission, plain and simple. Now, as it turns out, many, but not all holders of popular copyrights turn a blind eye to "fan fiction" or even subtly encourage it because it helps them. Make no mistake, however, that it is entirely up to them whether to do that."

*Who can obtain a copyright? *

Copyright protection exists from the time the work is created in fixed form and immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright. In the case of works made for hire, the employer, not the employee, is considered to be the author. 

The authors of a joint work are co-owners of the copyright unless there is an agreement to the contrary. Copyright in each separate contribution to a periodical or other collective work is distinct from copyright in the collective work as a whole and vests initially with the author of the contribution.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

You'll just have to wait and see what rights I have on the information.

It isn't about monetary issues. It is about protecting what is true...given the wack jobs out there that like to make issus out of things they know nothing about. Of course, KS...you wouldn't know anything about that type of behavior now would you? 

I have information obtained from the producer of dozens of orginal photos in Swinford's own backyard and source of the original documents...and this person was a primary partner of the original program. I am not referring to Marty. But, yes, he knows about the book and has expressed interest in it.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Whats the hold up Lee??


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> You'll just have to wait and see what rights I have on the information.
> 
> It isn't about monetary issues. It is about protecting what is true...given the wack jobs out there that like to make issus out of things they know nothing about. Of course, KS...you wouldn't know anything about that type of behavior now would you?
> 
> I have information obtained from the producer of dozens of orginal photos in Swinford's own backyard and source of the original documents...and this person was a primary partner of the original program. I am not referring to Marty. But, yes, he knows about the book and has expressed interest in it.


 

WOW, I guess all these secret sources have been waiting for 38+ years to find some Hillbilly in Mississippi to bring this Once great secret to light! Imagin that!!! :roll:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Remember this Lee?

Lee said....

_If you argue with emotion and nonsense, it only makes you look weak and ignorant. To convert intelligent people to your view, you will have to use logic._

Lee also said....

_It is about protecting what is true...given the wack jobs out there that like to make issus out of things they know nothing about. Of course, KS...you wouldn't know anything about that type of behavior now would you?_









You could probably be quoted for half the night Lee.... in fact, probably longer for contradicting yourself and back tracking. You make that very simple to do due to the fact that the more you open your mouth (or type).... the more you broadcast to the whole world what a mules bottom you are.

I asked a fairly straight forward question as I thought it pertinent to the info you provided, much of it all smacks of hype to me but then I know little to nothing of swineford dogs - Just got quite interested all of a sudden. :-D When does hype and money making not go together?


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Come come now Lee, this is getting tiring. Why so coy?
While copyright law can be quite convoluted, the process of copyrighting material is reasonably straight forward.
To me it looks like one of two things is going on as you seem to already lay claim to the copyright of the material you're referencing. 1 You're using some mysterious copyright mumbo jumbo as a shield against having to answer honest questions. Or 2 you're seeking protections that don't exist and the only way that protection can be provided is by keeping it secret.

No more of this parrying back and forth.
Can we get one straight answer please!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Well one thing I do know is if John himself wrote, took pictures, paid for Pictures to be taken, keeped a log, journal and/or diary that material would belong to John and after his Death would be provided for in a Will or the Juristictions "by law".


I am not sure but feel pretty confident in thinking Lee was not in John's will........:-D


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## Lori Longardino (Apr 4, 2009)

Lee I was refering to what marty will say to me In private about all the statements you have made or not made in this thread including you pending book. I'll swing by his shop tomorrow and bring this subject up with him, It's been a while since I stoped in to say hello to Marty and Al.

Alex Longardino


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

The more I read about this it seems like Swinford is not that well regarded except by Lee, and Lee has pissed off a lot of people all over the web arguing about it. Lol, even Wikipedia got their fill of this.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lori Longardino said:


> Lee I was refering to what marty will say to me In private about all the statements you have made or not made in this thread including you pending book. I'll swing by his shop tomorrow and bring this subject up with him, It's been a while since I stoped in to say hello to Marty and Al.
> 
> Alex Longardino


 
OMG! Now that should be interesting. I know how excited Randy Hare was to talk about Lee when I got to meet him in person. =D> goody


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Swinford Bandog....

Wouldn't this just be a great opportunity to put the record straight and the facts up front.... and remove just some of that pressure you feel burdened by? After all, life is for sharing :-D

Come on now... you can do it! Tell us all about the Swinford bandog.... show us your pics.... and I'll show you mine :-D


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Here are some more sources and excerpts about Swinford Bandogs...



> http://www.molossermania.com/brd/b/b001/history.html Scroll down to the part about John Swinford finding successs with MOST LIKELY a Neopalitan bitch crossed with an APBT.





> In the 1960s, John Swinford, an American veterinarian, decided to breed the "ultimate" guardian dog. He consistently crossed a male American Pit bull Terrier with a large, strong Neapolitan Mastiff female. Anther american mastiff breeder, by the name of Joe Lucero also had a hand in the evolution of this breed. He specifically refers to his dogs as American Bandog Mastiffs. http://www.squidoo.com/english-mastiff


I can find some more info later if people are interested. I'm really wondering what Lee has up his sleeves with his personal collection information. 

Courtney


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

am i the only one who is not quite sure what exactly we're talking about (let alone why) after 5 pages? :-\"


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Nope,
You're not the only one Kristin.

No axes to grind here,
Randy


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

WOW. I see there is quite the interest. LOL.

Lori, Feel free to tell Marty and Al I said Hello.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

WOW!
Unquote.
That's your answer? That does it. You're nothing but bullshit.
Hope for your Bandogs sake, or what ever the hell you call them, they have more backbone and character then I've witnessed from you in this thread.
In fact, any thread you've taken part in has become some kind of borderline play on the absurd written while in high school.

When you grow up please come back. Then we can talk as adults.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Randy, I have addressed any sincere question in a very polite manner. My website displays professionalism that has not been found in this topic. People are welcome to review it if they wish, or they are welcome to approach me in a more appropriate manner should they desire real information. The fact is, there are a small number of people out there that wish to attack Swinford's work and my work...despite never knowing either. Another fact is I do have information from the original program and from the person that actually took and worked with Swinford on developing some of the orginal documents. This information has been provided to me to use in our book. When that information is copywrite protected, it will be released, but I am not putting anymore information public than I already heave done as a great bit of of the information we have made public already has been stolen by people that do not have permission to use it. And, finally since someone else brought up Marty's name in this topic, they are welcome to tell him I said hello. I am certain he is well pleased with our program, as he personally has sold a few dogs for us to clients of his. In fact, he once told me I had the only real program that was still in existence today as most others have faded away.

If you would like to have an adult conversation, by all means...feel free to go back and review my initial posts on this topic and you will see I came into this topic with an appropriate, professional, and respectful demenor. The same can not be said for many of the participants. Notice the title "Swinburn" and KS referrence Swineford. People need to grow up and realize America is a big and great land...where people are free to disagree...but should remain respectful of others.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> Randy, I have addressed any sincere question in a very polite manner. My website displays professionalism that has not been found in this topic. People are welcome to review it if they wish, or they are welcome to approach me in a more appropriate manner should they desire real information. The fact is, there are a small number of people out there that wish to attack Swinford's work and my work...despite never knowing either. Another fact is I do have information from the original program and from the person that actually took and worked with Swinford on developing some of the orginal documents. This information has been provided to me to use in our book. When that information is copywrite protected, it will be released, but I am not putting anymore information public than I already heave done as a great bit of of the information we have made public already has been stolen by people that do not have permission to use it. And, finally since someone else brought up Marty's name in this topic, they are welcome to tell him I said hello. I am certain he is well pleased with our program, as he personally has sold a few dogs for us to clients of his. In fact, he once told me I had the only real program that was still in existence today as most others have faded away.
> 
> If you would like to have an adult conversation, by all means...feel free to go back and review my initial posts on this topic and you will see I came into this topic with an appropriate, professional, and respectful demenor. The same can not be said for many of the participants. Notice the title "Swinburn" and KS referrence Swineford. People need to grow up and realize America is a big and great land...where people are free to disagree...but should remain respectful of others.


 
I think what you missed in all this is the FACT that the Original writer, picture taker etc............ HAS copy right protection AUTOMATICALY undrer current CR law.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Is all this crap going to become a habit? 
I really don't feel like going through page after page of people calling bullshit. 
It 's not what the WDF is about!!!!!!!!!!

Bob Scott
WDF Moderator


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