# Another probelm for a "working" dogs' raising



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Before I start this let me say that I agree with Don Turnispeed in his answer to my Genetics/nerve post, when he said that scientific studies done by two different people, the same way, can get two different results, and I would also add science can be used to sell a product instead of finding out the truth.

With that in mind let me clarify that if I post a scientific study as an information source, I first make sure the study was done at a university or non-profit lab with no product to sell and second that at least two different, independent labs have done the same study with the same results.

So we all read about Genetics, nerves and socialization as the keys to raising a sound dog. The new factor I am about to quote in a summary from "The Dogs Mind" by Dr. Bruce Vogle D.V.M., M.R.C.VS comes from studies and information gathered from Guide Dogs for the Blind puppy program, Scott and Fuller lab, Bar Harbor Me., Margaret Young at the Vet school at the University of North Carolina State, who followed and recorded data from from several hundred puppies from birth until three years of age. 

The results and conclusions of these and several other studies were summarized by Dr. Vogle in this way. 

Quote; _"A dog does not expect to be treated like a human, a dog expects a human to act like a dog, to participate in group activities, to play, to hunt together, to sleep in the same den.

There is now convincing evidence that certain owner attitudes are directly associated with certain behavior problems in dogs. The dog owner would generally prefer not to believe that his state of mind has a direct bearing on his dogs state of mind, that he can be the cause of his dogs misbehavior. 

Genetic factors certainly do endow the individual dog with certain tendencies to behave in certain ways. Maternal, environmental and peer pressures also alter the dogs behavior but ultimately the capacities and tendencies of the dog and the full development of his mind depend on the kind of relationship he develops with his owner. This develops more fully in the next critical stage, the juvenile period, from twelve weeks to sexual maturity."
_

It appears, after thousands of dogs and decades of studies, the most influential factor in the success of the pup we are raising is WE, Us, You, I, the Human. Did that breeder sell us a good dog after all? Did we not know how to get the most from the dog as it grew? Was that pup 'genetically weak' or did it pick up on the owners state of mind ( Whew! that will open up a can of worms!)?

Just a few thoughts for your entertainment.

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

This is especially evident in people in who are never happy with their dogs, constantly trading dogs, every puppy or young dog they start ends up with similar issues.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ah! Butch, thanks.

I couldn't remember the name of the American couple "Scott and Fuller". We have (had) Eberhard Trumler, who popularised their theories over here in Europe. This man is one of the most down to earth dog behaviourists I have ever come across. Dogs may come, dogs may go, but his (their) principles will never die.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> This is especially evident in people in who are never happy with their dogs, constantly trading dogs, every puppy or young dog they start ends up with similar issues.


That's very true, but on a lighter note, what do you think they do with their 2-legged partners


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

HHmmm? 
Gillian, so if I hang out with the right training clubs I could get a dog and a date! Interesting.

Trumler is certainly an icon for me, as well Scott & Fuller. 
Thanks


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> This is especially evident in people in who are never happy with their dogs, constantly trading dogs, every puppy or young dog they start ends up with similar issues.


:twisted: My dogs have had the same issues. Then again, I keep picking the same kind of dog - and making the same mistakes! :twisted: :lol:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That's very true, but on a lighter note, what do you think they do with their 2-legged partners


Hah! ROFL! :lol: Thanks for the laugh!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"There is now convincing evidence that certain owner attitudes are directly associated with certain behavior problems in dogs."_

Another great topic Bruce. I've experienced it myself, seen others affect their dogs negatively and _positively_, and it's often pointed out on many of the Dog Whisperer episodes also. But interestingly, as sort of a bonding concept, Susan points out the _inverse_, that a dog can develop _aversive or insubordinate _behaviors as well, depending on the handler's approach. In a way, seems like two opposing processes, attract and repel.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Always interesting to see the "scientist" pointing out the obvious to anyone that has any real understanding of dogs.;-)


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

That book was very enjoyable to read, for a layman's understanding. I suppose when writing about all the aspects of "The Dog's Mind", it would make sense to include the obvious with the inobvious.

What's interesting to me, according to one dog special that was recently aired on tv, is what happens to be the single greatest difference between domestic canines and wolves; _the dog's ability to seek communication or cooperation through humans to achieve their objectives._ The handler-dog bond is all about communication, so then naturally involves the process of mimicing behavior, which eventually leads to assimilation among the usual repertiore of responses that are at the dog's disposal.

What is really cool to experience, we often talk about "reading dogs", but; what about a dog's ability to _read us?_ When you have a dog that you're training with, that pointedly makes an effort to _try to understand what you're telling it to do_ and in an eager fashion, I feel rewarded _myself_ in a way.

We often practice daily a series of little excercises that helps reinforce this behavior from our dogs, little mini-game's where the objective is for the dog to try to manipulate the human. The dog is more successful at manipulating humans when it figures the language we use (various rewards/corrections) and the channels we communicate through (posture, voice, eye contact, _[email protected]#clickers!_), and the ones that seem to do best are the one's that are _attracted to humans_. To re-emphasize what's stated above,

_"ultimately the capacities and tendencies of the dog and the full development of his mind depend on the kind of relationship he develops with his owner. This develops more fully in the next critical stage, the juvenile period, from twelve weeks to sexual maturity."_

Often, _but not as a rule_, this tendency toward handler sensitivity and willingness although desired, can come in the form of overall softness, where the _hardness_ isn't present to handle some situation's more tougher tasks, and in a more proactive manner of _aggression_. Also often, _but not as a rule_, hardness can come prepackaged with a lack of willingness. But there is still so much that is moldable from 12 weeks on, that can strengthen or deteriorate a given potential.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What is really cool to experience, we often talk about "reading dogs", but; what about a dog's ability to read us?

THis made me laugh, quite often it is not something we want at the time that we get it.

A guy I used to train with had a GSD that was the best I have seen at reading me. No matter what, he picked up on the little signals we have for communicating.

He was focused enough there for a while that he did not understand what the handler wanted as much as he knew what my body language told him was coming next.

Punk dog. LOL Really like that dog.


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