# Debbie Zappia



## Gillian Schuler

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since the accusations, strangely enough, not made by Debbie Zappia, who is a member of this forum, has flown.

Accusation: Erwin Patzen is corrupt or has been corrupted.

Debbie Zappia's tracking was observed by members of this forum from over 100 metres away and found to be "near perfect":-o was considered only to be 70 pts worth by the tracking judge who was close by!!!!

Erwin Patzen, world tracking expert was libelled on this forum as corrupt.

All this defamation and no outcome. come on folks - what sort of a world are we living in?

I shall not rest until this is solved. I shall take matters into my own hands, rest assured.

Libel is a serious matter.


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> A lot of water has passed under the bridge since the accusations, strangely enough, not made by Debbie Zappia, who is a member of this forum, has flown.
> 
> Accusation: Erwin Patzen is corrupt or has been corrupted.
> 
> Debbie Zappia's tracking was observed by members of this forum from over 100 metres away and found to be "near perfect":-o was considered only to be 70 pts worth by the tracking judge who was close by!!!!
> 
> Erwin Patzen, world tracking expert was libelled on this forum as corrupt.
> 
> All this defamation and no outcome. come on folks - what sort of a world are we living in?
> 
> I shall not rest until this is solved. I shall take matters into my own hands, rest assured.
> 
> Libel is a serious matter.


Oh JESUS..................Here in the US people are entitled to their opinions. Expressing an OPINION is NOT liable. Do what ever you feel you have to but threatening your fellow WDF members is NOT appropriate behavior. The 70 score was a joke and an insult. You didn't have to be 10 feet away to see that !


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## leslie cassian

Oh goody... dog sport politics involving people I don't know. :roll:

Could someone fill me in on what I'm supposed to be outraged by?


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## Thomas Barriano

leslie cassian said:


> Oh goody... dog sport politics involving people I don't know. :roll:
> 
> Could someone fill me in on what I'm supposed to be outraged by?


Do a WDF search on Debbie Zappia. A couple of topics about the 2014 WUSV will come up. Of interest is her 70 tracking score (when she was on track (excuse the pun) to be in the top 3 and the judge who gave it to her.


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas Barriano said:


> Oh JESUS..................Here in the US people are entitled to their opinions. Expressing an OPINION is NOT liable. Do what ever you feel you have to but threatening your fellow WDF members is NOT appropriate behavior. The 70 score was a joke and an insult. You didn't have to be 10 feet away to see that !


Don't be ridiculous. I am not threatening any of the WDF members. I would just like to know why Erwin Patzen was considered to be corrupt and that the whole WUSV 2014 trial was envisaged to be "Bull Shit".

No one has come forward to say that the accusations were false or that the WUSV 2014 trial was not Bull Shit or even proved that the accusations were correct.

Sorry you feel this way Thomas but I want to know what really happened.


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## Thomas Barriano

Debbie and the USA Team decided not to make any formal complaint so there isn't going to be any official report. Everybody can look at the video and make their own decision on how fair the 70 score was. I'd like to hear the critique but as far as I know it's not posted anywhere ? You posted back in October

"One competitor I know personally only gained 80 points in tracking at the same event and I was surprised as she is a very good dog handler. Apparently the dog tracked well but missed two articles."

Debbie is a better then good handler and missed NO articles and gets a 70 ? It stank then and it stinks now. Even if she did give "handler help" (which I don't see) it looks like the judge took all the points for all three articles to justify giving a 70 score. It doesn't really matter now, Debbie and Eros are the
2014 UScA National Champions and the SV is as corrupt as they've always been  

__________________


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## Gillian Schuler

Ok if the US Team doesn't feel it has a strong enough case to pursue the matter, so be it.

There is, however, no way anyone could say with accuracy either by looking at the Video or a good distance away what happend at the articles.

Erwin Patzen is a strict judge and this was "World's" where more extreme judging takes place.

Erwin is well respected here in Europe both for his sporting abilities and judging. as well as for his responsibilities in the Zürich Police Force. Some may find him too strict but never unfair or dishonest.

Let's leave it at that and part good company , I hope.


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian,

You know the judge (or at least you're advocating for him) Ask him why your friend misses two articles and still gets an 80 and Debbie got a 70 (at the same event) ?


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## Jim Duncan

Thomas Barriano said:


> Gillian,
> 
> You know the judge (or at least you're advocating for him) Ask him why your friend misses two articles and still gets an 80 and Debbie got a 70 (at the same event) ?


That is a good question!


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## Ben Thompson

Handlers from different countries actually have more in common with each other then they do a judge.


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Gillian,
> 
> You know the judge (or at least you're advocating for him) Ask him why your friend misses two articles and still gets an 80 and Debbie got a 70 (at the same event) ?


Love it!!!


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas

First off, I am not advocating Erwin Patzen - he is big enough and has a reputation to withstand such accusations. BTW these are the first I have heard against him.

Tracking is the one event that can't provide identical conditions for each compeitior. Time of day, conditions prevailing on that day, etc., etc. can provide surprises, even for well trained dogs.

The Austrian team were flabbergasted that two of their "sichere Fährtenhunde" (track-sure dogs) got low marks. However, they accepted this.

I do not doubt that Debbie Zappia is a very good handler and has trained her dog well. However, Debbie was not "sniffing out the track".

Just because a compeitor is a very good handler, does not mean that the dog will automatically always get very good marks for tracking 

I know it is disappointing - she and also her team colleague had excellent results and were on their way to fantastic end results and the tracking results must have been a bitter blow but this is no reason to make unfounded accusations.

Why didn't Debbie or one of the US Team have a word with Erwin Patzen immediately after the tracking result was given. Everyone has a right to this. 

Even at our local and national trials here in Switzerland we are entitled to a Score Sheet. I know this because my husband created them in his Software Programme.


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas Barriano said:


> Gillian,
> 
> You know the judge (or at least you're advocating for him) Ask him why your friend misses two articles and still gets an 80 and Debbie got a 70 (at the same event) ?


Thomas, I'm not the one questioning Erwin's judgement - you are. Why don't you contact him:

http://www.erwinpatzen.ch/


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thomas, I'm not the one questioning Erwin's judgement - you are. Why don't you contact him:
> 
> http://www.erwinpatzen.ch/


Gillian 

You've started two separate additional topics defending Erwin Patzen. I'm not questioning his judgement. I'm saying the score he gave Debbie Zappia was unjustified and unfair. I"m saying not filing any formal charges/complaint does NOT mean they didn't think they had grounds. More likely IMO they realized it wasn't likely they'd get a fair hearing from the corrupt SV. UScA needs to kick the SV to the curb and affiliate with a real Working GSD organization the RSV2000


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## Mark Sheplak

Thomas Barriano said:


> Gillian
> 
> You've started two separate additional topics defending Erwin Patzen. I'm not questioning his judgement. I'm saying the score he gave Debbie Zappia was unjustified and unfair. I"m saying not filing any formal charges/complaint does NOT mean they didn't think they had grounds. More likely IMO they realized it wasn't likely they'd get a fair hearing from the corrupt SV. UScA needs to kick the SV to the curb and affiliate with a real Working GSD organization the RSV2000


Aren't you the one that stated, "The tracking judge was Swiss Erwin Patzen I wonder what the SV promised him to betray his oath as a Judge ?" 

What did you mean by that statement? Aren't you basically accusing the guy of taking a bribe to screw over Debbie and the US team. Why back down now?

Why not ask Debbie to just post the critique and make it public? I don't know if judges are actually permitted to report their critiques. Even if he could, Erwin judged dozens of dogs and may not remember the details. I am sure that Debbie remembers what was said and she only had to remember one critique. She doesn't have to editorialize, just report what was actually said during the critique. 

I would be curious to understand how that track was scored from a learning perspective. 

I certainly agree with the RSV2000 perspective as it would be nice to just have a GSD organization dedicated to working dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano

Mark Sheplak said:


> Aren't you the one that stated, "The tracking judge was Swiss Erwin Patzen I wonder what the SV promised him to betray his oath as a Judge ?"
> 
> What did you mean by that statement? Aren't you basically accusing the guy of taking a bribe to screw over Debbie and the US team. Why back down now?
> 
> Why not ask Debbie to just post the critique and make it public? I don't know if judges are actually permitted to report their critiques. Even if he could, Erwin judged dozens of dogs and may not remember the details. I am sure that Debbie remembers what was said and she only had to remember one critique. She doesn't have to editorialize, just report what was actually said during the critique.
> 
> I would be curious to understand how that track was scored from a learning perspective.
> 
> I certainly agree with the RSV2000 perspective as it would be nice to just have a GSD organization dedicated to working dogs.


I"m not backing down at all. Anyone that watched the video or saw the track in person knows a 70 score was BS. I don't care what the judges reputation was before then.


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas Barriano said:


> Gillian
> 
> You've started two separate additional topics defending Erwin Patzen. I'm not questioning his judgement. I'm saying the score he gave Debbie Zappia was unjustified and unfair. I"m saying not filing any formal charges/complaint does NOT mean they didn't think they had grounds. More likely IMO they realized it wasn't likely they'd get a fair hearing from the corrupt SV. UScA needs to kick the SV to the curb and affiliate with a real Working GSD organization the RSV2000


Thomas,

You are not questioning Erwin Patzen's judgement but you are questioning the score he gave Debbie to be unjustified and unfair. :roll:

If they had grounds, they would have filed formal charges / complaints after all that BS shouting etc.

I think it's strange that Debbie Zappia has never commented on this forum but has left her minions to fight for her. That tells me a lot.

Thomas, we have never had issues before and I hope we won't again.

Cheers
Gill


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thomas,
> 
> You are not questioning Erwin Patzen's judgement but you are questioning the score he gave Debbie to be unjustified and unfair. :roll:
> 
> If they had grounds, they would have filed formal charges / complaints after all that BS shouting etc.
> 
> I think it's strange that Debbie Zappia has never commented on this forum but has left her minions to fight for her. That tells me a lot.
> 
> Thomas, we have never had issues before and I hope we won't again.
> 
> Cheers
> Gill



Gillian,

Debbie is an active National and International competitor. Her decision not to file a formal complaint was a practical decision based on likely outcome versus repercussions, not on the validity of the complaint (at least IMO). I went to a Zappia seminar in New Mexico 15 years ago. I have had no contact since then. I'm hardly her "minion" and I don't think anyone else who has problems with the 70 score is a minion either ?
I can't remember Debbie ever posting on this (or any Forum) why are you surprised that she hasn't commented here now ?


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas Barriano said:


> Gillian,
> 
> Debbie is an active National and International competitor. Her decision not to file a formal complaint was a practical decision based on likely outcome versus repercussions, not on the validity of the complaint (at least IMO). I went to a Zappia seminar in New Mexico 15 years ago. I have had no contact since then. I'm hardly her "minion" and I don't think anyone else who has problems with the 70 score is a minion either ?
> I can't remember Debbie ever posting on this (or any Forum) why are you surprised that she hasn't commented here now ?


Because she is the only one that has every reason to.


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## Thomas Barriano

Posted on FB that the latest issue of Der Gebrauchshund has an article by Jurgen Rixen about the 2014 WUSV that is highly critical of the score that Deb Zappia got for her track. I guess even some Germans thought the incident sucked ? Anyone get the magazine and could post a translation to what was said ?


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas Barriano said:


> Posted on FB that the latest issue of Der Gebrauchshund has an article by Jurgen Rixen about the 2014 WUSV that is highly critical of the score that Deb Zappia got for her track. I guess even some Germans thought the incident sucked ? Anyone get the magazine and could post a translation to what was said ?


 I can download a copy of Der Gebrauchshund. Doesn't cost much. Give me a day or two to translate it.

Can't find it on FB. Can you give me a hint?


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> I can download a copy of Der Gebrauchshund. Doesn't cost much. Give me a day or two to translate it.
> 
> Can't find it on FB. Can you give me a hint?


It was posted on Louise Jollymans IPO training FB page by German born Sandra King. I'd appreciate a translation of what was published. The claim was in the critique the judge claimed that Debbie forced the dog to indicate all three articles ?


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## Gillian Schuler

I can't find anything on FB!! I've tried Louise Jolleyman. I remember her as a serious competitor from the UK.

Sandra King was on here at one time and was banned as far as I know. I don't want to lose words over her as she is not here to defend herself.


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas

I have heard from both sides of the Pond that Debbie influenced the dog to indicate the articles.

If she did this, she must have known. Have you ever tried to ask her whether she did this or not?? Without this "confession" or "denial" we cannot go further.

We are now back to hearsay but not back to facts.


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thomas
> 
> I have heard from both sides of the Pond that Debbie influenced the dog to indicate the articles.
> 
> If she did this, she must have known. Have you ever tried to ask her whether she did this or not?? Without this "confession" or "denial" we cannot go further.
> 
> We are now back to hearsay but not back to facts.


Get on FB and type in IPO Training in the search box at the top of your home page and the page should come up. How do you "influence the dog at the articles" if you don't know where the articles are ? I'm just interested in what Jurgen Rixen had to say not in rehashing the SOS or whether Sandra King is still on the WDF.


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> How do you "influence the dog at the articles" if you don't know where the articles are ?


It can be easy to do. Many people who have worked dogs on tracks, hides, whatever, have learned to watch for subtle changes in body language/behavior, and inadvertently or overtly "help" the dog.

I personally, don't see how someone who competes at her level would even need to do this but I really don't want to get into this further because I am not interested in the topic. I just wanted to answer your question.


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## Bob Scott

Not going to take sides one way or the other but "influencing the dog at the articles" can be done easily with subtle leash movement. 

Without video thee would be no way to prove or disprove at this point but I would certainly think someone would have video at such a high level trial.


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas Barriano said:


> Get on FB and type in IPO Training in the search box at the top of your home page and the page should come up. How do you "influence the dog at the articles" if you don't know where the articles are ? I'm just interested in what Jurgen Rixen had to say not in rehashing the SOS or whether Sandra King is still on the WDF.


Thomas 

It's a closed Group and the discussion can only be seen by its members.

I've wasted enough time already as your instructions were not too clear and I am no more interested in rehashing than you are.


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thomas
> 
> It's a closed Group and the discussion can only be seen by its members.
> 
> I've wasted enough time already as your instructions were not too clear and I am no more interested in rehashing than you are.


My instructions were clear enough for you to find the FB page ?
It's easy enough to join, just sent a request. The discussion isn't important. The fact that a well known and respected author Jurgen Rixen apparently wrote an article in the top dog sport magazine in Germany critical of the score that Debbie Zappia received at the WUSV should be of interest to the members of the WDF. Somebody on this group must have read the article and could provide a translation ?


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## Thomas Barriano

Bob Scott said:


> Not going to take sides one way or the other but "influencing the dog at the articles" can be done easily with subtle leash movement.
> 
> Without video thee would be no way to prove or disprove at this point but I would certainly think someone would have video at such a high level trial.



There was a video posted and the opinions of several observers. The only one that saw "the influence at the the articles" was the judge ? :-(


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## Bob Scott

Thomas Barriano said:


> There was a video posted and the opinions of several observers. The only one that saw "the influence at the the articles" was the judge ? :-(



If that's the case then it boils down, good or bad, to a judgement call and that's been made.

Has a judgement such as this ever been reversed?


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas Barriano said:


> My instructions were clear enough for you to find the FB page ?
> It's easy enough to join, just sent a request. The discussion isn't important. The fact that a well known and respected author Jurgen Rixen apparently wrote an article in the top dog sport magazine in Germany critical of the score that Debbie Zappia received at the WUSV should be of interest to the members of the WDF. Somebody on this group must have read the article and could provide a translation ?


I very rarely go on FB and even if I joined the Group (which I have no interest in) it would still be "hearsay" and not fact.


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## Thomas Barriano

Bob Scott said:


> If that's the case then it boils down, good or bad, to a judgement call and that's been made.
> 
> Has a judgement such as this ever been reversed?


The call wouldn't be reversed, but it will be interesting to see what Jurgen Rixen had to say. Any American (or any other nationality ) competitor should think twice about trialing under this judge or inviting him to judge any trials IMO


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> I very rarely go on FB and even if I joined the Group (which I have no interest in) it would still be "hearsay" and not fact.



"There are none so blind as those that will not see"
There are more and more people that say Debbie got robbed.
There are only people that support this judge because he's a judge. There is NO one that saw any handler help or influence except the judge. It is what it is.


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## Mark Sheplak

Thomas Barriano said:


> "There are none so blind as those that will not see"
> There are more and more people that say Debbie got robbed.
> There are only people that support this judge because he's a judge. There is NO one that saw any handler help or influence except the judge. It is what it is.


I am not supporting the judge aside from stating the obvious...simply put, you don't know. No matter how emphatically you state otherwise, no body but Debbie and the judge knows what happened. You have continually slandered this man as if you know with 100% certainty. 

You are basing everything that you say on hearsay and a grainy video taken by an iPhone 4 at a spectator distance. Not everyone is 100% convinced of this. I have watched the debate over on FB and think that Nate and Chris nailed it with their comments. 

I am surprised that there is not a higher-quality video available. I am also surprised that no one videoed the critique...you know the one where the judge allegedly smiled and said something to the effect, handler help, 70.


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## susan tuck

Mark Sheplak said:


> I am not supporting the judge aside from stating the obvious...simply put, you don't know. No matter how emphatically you state otherwise, no body but Debbie and the judge knows what happened. You have continually slandered this man as if you know with 100% certainty.
> 
> You are basing everything that you say on hearsay and a grainy video taken by an iPhone 4 at a spectator distance. Not everyone is 100% convinced of this. I have watched the debate over on FB and think that Nate and Chris nailed it with their comments.
> 
> I am surprised that there is not a higher-quality video available. I am also surprised that no one videoed the critique...you know the one where the judge allegedly smiled and said something to the effect, handler help, 70.


Agreed.

I hold out room out for the possibility that the judge thought he saw something that he didn't and I also hold out room for the possibility that the judge saw exactly what he thought he saw. The thing is I wasn't there and actually even the spectators were at a great distance, only the judge, the track layer and Debbie were "there" there, and I've not heard anything from any one of the 3.

I absolutely do not hold out room for the possibility that the judge is incompetent or that this was some sort of conspiracy or that the judge is corrupt and purposely cheated Debbie because there is nothing in this judge's past record that would make me believe such a thing. 

As far as the article in the magazine goes, it would be interesting to read, but I would not give it any extra credence because again, it's from the perspective of a spectator who is at a great distance.



BY THE WAY WHY IS THIS THREAD NOT SHOWING UP IN "ACTIVE TOPICS" LIST?


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## Gillian Schuler

I am glad to see one or two unbiased opinions.

My contention was with the fact that a judge was considered to be corrupt. The fact that he is Swiss and that I have met him on occasions is irrelevant. I know of his excellent reputation. Not all judges are selected to judge at WUSV Worlds.

I don't think that Erwin Patzen would lose any sleep over all this commotion, even if it reached his ears. Most judges are aware of the fact that spectators "see more than they do" and just shrug their shoulders.


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> I am glad to see one or two unbiased opinions.
> 
> My contention was with the fact that a judge was considered to be corrupt. The fact that he is Swiss and that I have met him on occasions is irrelevant. I know of his excellent reputation. Not all judges are selected to judge at WUSV Worlds.
> 
> I don't think that Erwin Patzen would lose any sleep over all this commotion, even if it reached his ears. Most judges are aware of the fact that spectators "see more than they do" and just shrug their shoulders.



And I doubt if Debbie Zappia will lose any sleep over an SV Sycophant who she'll probably never see again. She already went on to win the UScA National Championship (under honest judging) and I expect to see her on the podium many times in the future. Erwin who ?


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## Mark Sheplak

Thomas Barriano said:


> And I doubt if Debbie Zappia will lose any sleep over an SV Sycophant who she'll probably never see again. She already went on to win the UScA National Championship (under honest judging) and I expect to see her on the podium many times in the future. Erwin who ?


No one is doubting Debbie's prowess, but to state "Erwin who?" doesn't reflect well on you. 

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.erwinpatzen.ch/&prev=search

It is also duly noted that Sandra deleted that FB post without explanation. I imagine that the SV is behind that as well. 

Again, you just don't know and no matter how much rhetoric you toss out there, you are still basing your slanderous allegations on a grainy iPhone 4 video at a distance and hearsay from biased people.


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## Thomas Barriano

It's not slander if it's true Mark. I have Dobermanns AND I trial in the USA where there are plenty of UScA and DVG America Judges. I have NO need for any SV judges especially fools and/or cheats. Jurgen Rixen is a respected IPO sport author and expert. So he must be biased too ?


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## Mark Sheplak

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's not slander if it's true Mark. I have Dobermanns AND I trial in the USA where there are plenty of UScA and DVG America Judges. I have NO need for any SV judges especially fools and/or cheats. Jurgen Rixen is a respected IPO sport author and expert. So he must be biased too ?



Now Erwin is a fool and/or cheat? It is noted that you pass on acknowledging Erwin's track record of achievement which is substantial. 

Now you KNOW that it is true? You weren't there, correct? You are basing your opinion on hearsay from others who were much farther away than the judge? The burden of proof is on you, which no matter how many keystrokes you make, your proof is just second/third hand hearsay and "proof" from a grainy iPhone 4 video at a long distance away. 

Do you have the article translated? Did you read it? Yes or no? Why did Sandra suddenly delete the FB post?


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## Thomas Barriano

Preponderance of the evidence Mark. Observations of a dozen spectators plus the video. You don't need detailed close up video to see when someone is or is not dragging their dog onto one article, much less all three. Ask Sandra why she deleted the topic if you want to know ?


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## Mark Sheplak

Thomas Barriano said:


> Preponderance of the evidence Mark. Observations of a dozen spectators plus the video. You don't need detailed close up video to see when someone is or is not dragging their dog onto one article, much less all three. Ask Sandra why she deleted the topic if you want to know ?


Again, all hearsay. You don't know what was said during the critique. You weren't there. There was no video (oddly enough...did the iPhone run out of power?) of the critique so again, you don't know what was said. 

Christopher Smith was on to something when he suggested eliminating judges and just have people on the internet watching poor quality videos from a distance submit scores. Perhaps you can volunteer to be the lead internet tracking judge?

Um, you already asked her...did you get an answer? Could it be that she was misquoting someone? Could it be that other folks on there were essentially putting words in USCA officials mouths? It certainly was removed for a reason.


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## Thomas Barriano

I saw the video and the score. I"m not interested in what excuse the judge made or any interest in what you or Chris Smith has to say. Have you ever even trialed in IPO or do you just like kissing SV butt?


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## Christopher Smith

Patzen has been in 31 championships. He has been on the podium about one third of the time, including being multiple time FH world champion. He has judged 12 championship trials. He is, without a doubt, one of the most accomplished tracking handlers in that has ever done the sport. 

If anyone knows the "tricks of the trade" it's this man. If he said there was handler help, he believes he saw handler help. There is no reason to question his honesty. 

This does not mean that Debbie is a cheat either. She is a a great trainer and handler that I have a great deal of admiration for. Maybe she does something at the articles that was misinterpreted as help? Or maybe she subconsciously did help the dog? The best handlers in the world make handler errors. To believe otherwise is crazy.


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## Christopher Smith

I know for a fact that handler help in tracking can be very subtle. A sniff of the nose or change in breathing. A slight change in leash pressure. The way the handler is walking. These are just a couple of things that I KNOW that people use to help the dog. All of that is hard to make out on a grainy iPhone video.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

I'm bored so I'm asking...are the videos still posted somewhere? Were they of 100 percent of the track? Or was there some cut out?

Chris, one more, not so subtle though: walking on the line. NOT saying she did that but you can't see that from far away. 

Laura, who gives handler hindrance to her dog in tracking, not handler help


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## Thomas Barriano

I believe Debbie Zappia did nothing wrong and should have won the WUSV. I have NO interest in Patzen or his history.


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## Christopher Smith

Yeah... we know. I was talking to the reasonable people.


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## Gillian Schuler

I also read on a German Forum that the dog seemed to be uncertain at the start of the track but we can't take this as gospel either because the video was of poor quality and if Debbie Zappia did realise that the dog was coming up to the article and influenced him you couldn't see this from far away
<O
I would also think that if she influenced the dog, she would do this as unobstrusively as possible.<O</O
<O</O
I can subscribe to all that has been said about Erwin Patzen. I have met him personally and truly cannot think why he would wish to penalize a competitor. 

Thomas, next you will be suggesting he wanted to take her out for a drink and she refused him so this was his revenge :lol:


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> [
> 
> Thomas, next you will be suggesting he wanted to take her out for a drink and she refused him so this was his revenge :lol:




Don't put words in my mouth Gillian. Debbie Zappia didn't cheat, she doesn't cheat. Your boy apparently confuses handling with handler help. Debbie Zappia will continue to be on the podium and hopefully we'll never see Erwin Patzen in the US


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah... we know. I was talking to the reasonable people.


I have less interest in you then in Erwin Patzen.


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> I have less interest in you then in Erwin Patzen.


That cuts deep Thomas.  Why do you want to hurt me? Is it because you can't try to shut me up with "What have you done in IPO?" bullshit, like you tried with Mark above? Is it my charm and good looks?


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## Gillian Schuler

Influencing the dog in tracking is not cheating. If the judge sees it, he will deduct points. If doesn't you get to keep them


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## susan tuck

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah... we know. I was talking to the reasonable people.


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## Christopher Smith

I think this pigeon is more accurate.


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