# What would you pick???



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I am whelping a litter for a breeder here in Nj. This is the 2nd litter I have helped with and for doing the work the last time, I got some training. This time I am asking for a puppy/young dog. I didnt want a new working prospect until next summer (when Griffin was 'finished'--we are close to our advanced USAR cert, but who knows.....), but hey...the opportunity come up. 

I had planned on getting an older than 8wk old pup/young dog next time--maybe even looking into a rescue dog now that i have at least some idea of what to look for. I dont have to take a puppy now, I could get an older pup/young dog.

I love the mama dog and have heard the sire for this litter is very nice and am attracted to the idea of having a pup that no one else has touched except me....but the idea of an 8 week old crap shoot is scary (I will ask the breeder to pick for me, I dont think I could). I know the traits I want (and so does the breeder) and it will be an HRD and trailing SAR dog....

What would you do given the opportunity to take a well bred 8wk old that you raised from birth vs. a well bred older pup whose traits are more easily read????

Thanks for the input!


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

a puppy is always a crap shoot 
if the cost is the same I would much rather pick from some 14-18 month olds


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

It will cost some money for the older pup.....the ones that are held back have some training on them, depending on age.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

I am not so sure about SAR, but my preference has always been a dog that didn't have ANY training. Better I should learn on the dog than somebody who may not know anything **** it up and hand you a problem that you fight the rest of its life trying to fix. 

Retraining a bad behavior can take 3 times as long to fix and still no guarantee that the bad behavior comes back to haunt you.

Pups are a crap shoot, as has been mentioned and I concur. 


Young dog with hips and elbows would be MY choice, without ANY training. I know still a bit harder to find than a pup or a started dog but that would be my personal preference. Probably costlier than a pup but if a breeder has a nice dog that has been cooped up in a kennel and they are tired of feeding him, maybe not so much.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

My main attraction to a pup out of this litter is the fact that I would be the only one to have ever handled it.....(and I love the dam--she is a really nice dog. Dont know much about pedigrees but here they are if it makes any difference http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/537671.html, and sire: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/439031.html)

The older pups/young dogs would be kennel dogs--do you worry about a dog having problems being in a kennel with minimal handling? I worry about that early socialization period..... In my home it would be a family dog who had to put up with cats, kids and must be non aggressive to other dogs.....I do trust the breeder to place a dog with me. He knows what he is doing and knows what I am looking for. 

The bitch I have with me now has only been a kennel dog--we actually had to bring her over to make sure she didnt want to kill cats before I could accept her to whelp. While she sure likes those kitties who might run, she doesnt immediately want to kill them, so I know that not all super high drive, kennel dogs automatically need to kill small creatures, but it is a worry for me.

More than likely the choices I would have with the older pups would be under 1 yr old.

Thanks for the thoughts!!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

It sounds like you are close enough to the breeder that you would be able to participate in the raising of the pups even after 8 weeks, is this correct? And that they raise dogs up for resale as young adults? 

If you have the time, what about asking to take the pup you like best to raise up for yourself, but with an option being able to consider taking an older pup from that litter down the road if the breeder has one at the kennel that looks like it's maturing into a better choice?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Would you have a good way to place the pup if it winds up not suitable?

You could really imprint a pup on HRD but my two cents is if you are talking HRD more than just finding a relatively fresh body in the woods - I would go single purpose. I know a lot of folks mix two disciplines ......

I have the same struggle - and think the best way to go is the young dog. Because my female [bought as a puppy with a whole lot of training time and money invested in her] has HD and I am going to need to start a new dog in the next year or two - now I have to deal with what to do with the female so I can bring in that next dog and she still has plenty of spunk and joy of life in her and already needs more attention than she is currently getting.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I would pick an 8 week old pup. I want the early imprinting and the type of socialization and training I see fit for my program.

Sure pups are a crap shoot and I would resolve that should the dog lack the drive I am looking for, or have some kind of nerve issues, it will be rehomed.

Of course I have never started an older dog....so my feelings on the matter are rather one sided#-o

I realize I am in a minority picking the pup. Just the way I roll. I can't see myself getting a grown dog with no obedience and then having to bring him into my work environment and start my training there.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Hey Jennifer--you didnt make it any easier LOL!!! I am trying to convince myself not to get a pup from this litter! I am so tempted for the stated reasons, but my plan was to get an older pup (4m to 1 yr).

I do believe that if I got the pup, I could exchange it if it didnt work out. Not sure what my kids would do with that, but I have no interest in a large nutty dog that I cant work.....Dont know what I'd do if there was a physical issue (I guess live with a large nutty dog I couldnt work..if I couldnt give it away...).

Nancy--do you think a pup is better for HRD for early imprinting. HRD is my main goal with my next dog.

Meanwhile...mommy aint popped yet. She is late as of yesterday.....I'm starting to think it would have been better to start saving for a pup rather than barter.......


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jennifer, you know, I really don't know if that early imprinting makes a big difference - or any difference.

My philosophy has been to go with single purpose dog and that is all he thinks about when he gets out of the truck. Have not had any problem with imprinting a grown dog. Got 12 of 12 with no false alerts on the NAPWDA this time and one of the sources was one of a type we rarely get to work.

Maybe LE can chime in there because I don't think most dual purpose dogs get imprinted until they start their training but I could be wrong.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Everyone has a different opinion. I prefer to start with a baby puppy (around 5 weeks or so). If I start with an older green dog I want it to have some foundation work already imprinted by someone who I know and trust. I can tell you that the early imprint work we do with police dogs makes it much easier to train the dog when he gets a little older. I have had good luck with buying young adult green dogs but they were always properly imprinted for all phases of police work.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I like raising pups. I have had all, pups, youngsters (green) and older already trained dogs (not SAR but titled Sch)

Here are my thoughts for what it is worth: 

Puppies: raising them, wow, so cool to see a whole litter grow and be able to choose the one with the best/highest drives. 

Buying a pup, yeah, it is a crapshoot, BUT the most important part is finding a trustworthy breeder that KNOWS drives and temperaments to be able to get you what you want in the first place. 

Young Dogs: 
I got Ajay at 9 months and could not be happier with him, he was a ball o drive. Of course I trust the breeder who contacted me and will definitely recommend her and also buy more pups when I need to.....

IMHO, young dogs that learn some bad habits are fairly easy to re-train, sometimes not, but with diligent and consistent training it can be done. I don't care if the dog is taught sit, down and walking on a leash, but that is about all I want done.....I like to start my own dogs. 

Older, Already trained or titled dogs: 
Depending on the dog, they can be great for a beginner or make a beginner want to quit dogs all together. You may be buying the dog from someone who has had them their whole lives and can explain their "quirks" which is a definite plus. 
OR
You can import an older dog and have it be a ball of shit when it gets here. 

I have a bitch that does well on the field. BUT, everyday life was like foreign to her....off the field there was little obedience, and when I would try she would look at me with the question of "WHAT?" on her face. With consistent work with marker training and a ball on a string she is much better. Older dogs can be retrained, but it is not as easy as a pup.....
Esta is a hard bitch, and I think some of it has to do with how she was handled in the past. She came from the Netherlands so who knows what was done to her there, and her other owners I know, so I she was treated alright with them. I will never know her whole history. 

I think it all boils down to finding a trustworthy breeder or at least find some people you trust to find you the dog that you want.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I wouldn't start with an older dog. I feel they are just someone elses problem and I am not into rebuilding. If it is going to be screwed up, well I can do a fine job of that own my own with the raw material as in a pup. Then I know it was my doing if nothing else. It comes down to it is the dog or me.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

She had the pups last night--5 boys and 3 girls.....If I wasnt so tired, they'd be very cute!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tired??? Why? Don't tell me you stayed up while the dog was having pups!! Congrats. I have one due also......just looked out the window....she hasn't had them yet. Any day now. At least she waited till it cooled off. Got down to 40 last night. Much better for the mom, and the pups when it is brisk.


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