# Sleeve question



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Has anybody here seen the sleeves advertised by Ray Allen, Elite K9. They are replicas of a human arm supposed to be of rubber material I believe. What is your opinion on them? I have not seen any revues on them as of yet.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

We are in the process of purchasing the fake arm and leg. The police foundation is providing them to the unit. They are not sleeves per se', just appendages. Will give a review once used.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Phil and Howard

no clue here; never heard of it

are u referring to the product they call a "Real Sleeve Rubber Arms" that comes in a left, right or open hand, and has a yellow handle coming out from the half-bicep end ?
product number SA100 ?

if so, one pic shows 3 straps on the inside that i guess means u could wear it like a sleeve, but seems like it would be hard to keep in place if u were working with a real dog. you’d need at least a thick guantlet under that as a minimum and that might make it slide around ? open hand version might tend to target a hand ?

- pics reminded me of something you would use to stick in a food bowl to eval food guarding, but i doubt that's what it's being sold for
- 169 bucks ... ?
- maybe the design was inspired by the walking dead TV series 

hope Howard can post video of it being used in sleeve mode !


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Howard
if the straps break off or it gets slipped and the dog runs off with that arm, be careful the clip doesn't show up on the evening news or a PETA web site


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

rick smith said:


> are u referring to the product they call a "Real Sleeve Rubber Arms" that comes in a left, right or open hand, and has a yellow handle coming out from the half-bicep end ?


 That is the one. It's made by Armandleg-on (a play with words I suppose). Anyway. We used the arm portion last night. Only 3 handlers training due to a recently retired dog...a handler in a school...and 2 from another agency blowing us off this week.

First to go was a newer dog, 2 years on the street with one minor real bite. He took the fake arm with no problem. My boy did the same but he has multiple physical apprehensions. The newest dog, that's only been on the road 8 months, bit the arm and almost let go but then fully committed.

We did a scenario where the dog had to track the decoy, then a challenge, then a bite on the appendage. The arm is heavy, 10-15 pounds easily. Can't imagine what the leg is going to weigh. The cheesy yellow handle on the arm sucked! It is plastic coated, too short, and the pommel is waaay to small. We are going to put grip tape on it and add a wrist lanyard. 

For some reason all 3 dogs left blood on the appendage. It's pretty stiff rubbery material so I'm banking that the dogs fully committed to the bite which is a good thing. Had a few punctures in the material that was self healing but I imagine it'll deteriorate after some time.

That's my review. I would almost want a wearable item than this thing imo.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks for the revue Howard. Would you personally purchase one?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Howard and Phil
curious about this aspect

how much "life" the equipment has when a dog engages is something i give a lot of weight to. it's something i learned the hard way and has always stuck with me.

i realize any new gear is gonna require a learning curve, but i'm having a hard time seeing how a heavy item like this will give that type of communication to the dog. i'm thinking the weight of the arm will require a lot of effort on the decoy just to hold it up and present, can't be manipulated like a sleeve with a real arm inside, etc.

(in the same way a big heavy slobbered up sleeve won't give the same type of feel as a hidden sleeve)

so the Q is : will this apply to using a fake heavy rubber arm, and become more like a tug than a sleeve in terms of "life" ?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Howard and Phil
> curious about this aspect
> 
> how much "life" the equipment has when a dog engages is something i give a lot of weight to. it's something i learned the hard way and has always stuck with me.
> ...


 Rick, 

As you know, there is nothing like the real thing. That said...this is as close to real as you are going to get. It looks like a bare arm, its consistency is a bit denser though. And yes, it is difficult to manipulate in its current form. Using it on a regular basis will definately educate the dog in that it will begin to become a tug toy BUT, it will be a tug that looks like a real human arm/leg so transferring from that to the real thing would be seamless IMO. Much like using hidden sleeves, and muzzles to a lesser extent. One good thing about the appendage is that it allows the dog to target bare human flesh. I've seen my share of dogs that failed to bite bare flesh even though they've had lots of muzzle work or hidden sleeve work until they became more experienced. Not all mind you, but quite a few.

Phil....would I pay the $450 out of my pocket? Not unless I planned to use it with lots of dogs. It's a neat concept but a big price tag for a limited use training item. We'll use it alot I'm sure, but we have 7 teams in our training group and usually have visiting agencies on a regular basis.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

So Howard, about this flesh. When it comes to dogs is flesh flesh or do you see hesitation in color or size variants. I know it's an out there type of question but it's Friday, I am irritated but glad the week is over so this is what you get…


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

ive just try it with a agency unit i help training...
didnt liked it much i dont see its a real good biting destroyer in the long term...
it does make a cool feat for one or two times testing runs for a dog to chexk hes reaction.
but i think expreianced street wise trainer dont need it much... at least not to justify its price...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hmmm, you make good points and now the idea of that arm seems quite stupid to me. I'm sure it has it's place but likely more of a novelty is likely what it is.

I wonder if the people who make these things also make dildos. Sorry Phil, I'm on a play stupid games - win stupid prizes kick today...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

"self healing" rubber sounds Hi-tec. maybe that's why it's so expensive ?

if a dog bleeds from gripping into rubber it might also mean the gums are not as healthy as they should be, so i'd check em

we all know dog's get more comfortable gripping the same surfaces and textures, and introducing variety early on while developing a grip is a good thing. 
- it's probably not done enuff since variety is limited (Fr linen, jute, cordura, etc), and that's probably a big reason why dogs start getting conditioned to NOT enjoy gripping a new surface

there must be some rubber material out on the market that could be slipped over a hidden sleeve to get close to a flesh texture. that's the route i'd go if i was a manufacturer and it would allow for the wearer to give the dog better feedback rather than waste energy holding a rubber stump
- could be disposable and WAY less than the cost of the RA arm

in a perfect world you should be able to use child molesters and other deviants in the prison system as decoys to train K9's to save lives 
- until that happens, a hog leg strapped to a sleeve would get close to the real thing and serve a dual purpose. rinse it off and have a BBQ after training


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

rick smith said:


> "self healing" rubber sounds Hi-tec. maybe that's why it's so expensive ?
> 
> if a dog bleeds from gripping into rubber it might also mean the gums are not as healthy as they should be, so i'd check em
> 
> ...


i am quit happy with my "recipe" 
i put lots of dogs on the street pat years houndrets of catches and bites they all bite first time no problem. i dont use pieces of animals (execept for the dogs neutriting) ruber hands and not abuse any criminal in the procesess (at least for that matter). 
i do like the bbq at the end...
just pillow, sleeves, hidden sleeves, muzzles, bite suits and thin suit.
i did loved the bbq at the end thou


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> So Howard, about this flesh. When it comes to dogs is flesh flesh or do you see hesitation in color or size variants. I know it's an out there type of question but it's Friday, I am irritated but glad the week is over so this is what you get…


 Only saw the youngest dog give the slightest hesitation. The other two had no problem. Not the biggest test group so we'll see what happens with the others.



> Sefi said... does make a cool feat for one or two times testing runs for a dog to chexk hes reaction.
> but i think expreianced street wise trainer dont need it much... at least not to justify its price...


Totally agree8)




> Rick said..."self healing" rubber sounds Hi-tec. maybe that's why it's so expensive ?
> 
> if a dog bleeds from gripping into rubber it might also mean the gums are not as healthy as they should be, so i'd check em
> 
> ...


The arm is quite realistic. We dragged it all over our bodies to put some human stink on it to try and make it more realistic. The offering was done from behind a barrier. Prior to sending in for the bite the decoy put up his real arm, and the fake arm to show the dog the two together and it looks real convincing (won't post the video) and the dog was allowed to go around the barrier and take the arm...all on lead of course, and fully under control for safety. 

I don't imagine each of our dogs will see this more than a dozen times a year, just sporadic, in training. And yes...child molesters SHOULD take real bites (for the cause  ) but you know, they's gots rights too ya know.](*,)


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Howard Knauf said:


> Nicole Stark said:
> 
> 
> > So Howard, about this flesh. When it comes to dogs is flesh flesh or do you see hesitation in color or size variants. I know it's an out there type of question but it's Friday, I am irritated but glad the week is over so this is what you get?
> ...


thats as good use as can be for that thing i think...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Update....

So, we get the arm out last night to give the other teams a try with it. We notice a light colored line encircling the upper forearm area. Turns out the rubber is separating as if there was a seam in the product that has failed. I have no idea why there would be a seam there but it doesn't matter... Item is going back to the manufacturer.:x:x


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