# food use in a focused heel



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

6mo GSD pup: started using left hand to deliver food reward for a focused heel, used food ala ME to reduce drive from using a tug / ball reward. pup is now well fed before heel work.

pup gets to lunging at the hand and bothering the food hand waiting for reward, don't want to use correction to block behaviour.

suggestions on lowering the drive level - pup is borerline hectic for tug so switched to food after a meal - only marginally less drive??


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> 6mo GSD pup: started using left hand to deliver food reward for a focused heel, used food ala ME to reduce drive from using a tug / ball reward. pup is now well fed before heel work.
> 
> pup gets to lunging at the hand and bothering the food hand waiting for reward, don't want to use correction to block behaviour.
> 
> suggestions on lowering the drive level - pup is borerline hectic for tug so switched to food after a meal - only marginally less drive??


Videotape it...no flowers though Petey.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Are you using food to lure him along?

I think before teaching heel you need to cement focus and position(fuss or heel)and the reward only comes thru focus then progress to heel.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

gets confusing where its stops being a lure and starts being a reward for a specific behaviour - confusing for me that is - was fine with classic luring as there were no isolated behaviours and it was all fast paced - this is a step up in the formality, a bit more deliberate and a bit more marking style reward. i got the reward for focus on my eyes thing on preety good command when staionary, incorporating it with movement not so much, the pup is pushy as hell and i have basically encourged that - i like a dog to push me for behaviours - i don't want a dog i have to push around.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> 6mo GSD pup: started using left hand to deliver food reward for a focused heel, used food ala ME to reduce drive from using a tug / ball reward. pup is now well fed before heel work.
> 
> pup gets to lunging at the hand and bothering the food hand waiting for reward, don't want to use correction to block behaviour.
> 
> suggestions on lowering the drive level - pup is borerline hectic for tug so switched to food after a meal - only marginally less drive??


Peter
1. DO NOT lower the dogs drive. Learn to work within his drive. This takes control and focus from the dog and skill from you. 

2. pup lunges at hand for food item a sharp verbal correction issued. he does it again correct then go right to work. There is nothing wrong with a properly timed fair correction. Just go right into positive mode immediately following your correction. I think of those corrections as if I were tugging at your shirt sleeve to gain your attention because that is the function it is serving. The true secret of good dog trainers is they know how to get into the dogs head and get what they want that way. 

3. SLOW DOWN and teach the dog. You eat a steak one bite at a time and you train your dog one little step at a time. ''

4. your version of borderline hectic is my version of "Oh hell yeah I got me somthin here to work with" back up in your training and teach control and focus to your dog. Screw the heeling and all the pretty shit. Get down to basics and when you have that in the bag then go train that flashy stuff because without focus and self restraint your never gonna be able to advance especially with a binging ass high drive dog.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> Videotape it...no flowers though Petey.


 
i am but a delicate little flower my friend


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thanks Brian i think i been taking too much of the just do prey games with your pup approach too far, now its time to intro some control - pup is now leaping up and giving a decent bite on my tricep gettin crazy for a ball / stick.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> thanks Brian i think i been taking too much of the just do prey games with your pup approach too far, now its time to intro some control - pup is now leaping up and giving a decent bite on my tricep gettin crazy for a ball / stick.


I love it when a pup shows that. You got you something to work with!! He is young and now its time to do focus play and control games. Forget "training" at this point in the game. Teach him how to control himself. The easiest way to do that is to slowly show him over time that NO MATTER WHAT there will be a payoff. That could be an atta boy or food or toy or whatever. When he realizes that regardless he is going to be rewarded you will start to see some control. Then YOU become more important because he realizes you control the proverbial purse string and it goes on from there. You see all these guys doing mondio, PSA and the rest with these nice ass dogs. There is a HUGE amount of control in those ring dogs. Lots of time is spent teaching control and focus. Just stay with it and lay you a good foundation to work from.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter,

Do you actually have the ME DVD Training your dog with Food
or are you training what you think is the ME method?
IF you don't have the DVD? Buy it


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## Brad Doerle (Nov 8, 2010)

Buy gloves? sometimes a quick nudge on the nose works if hes snapping at the hand but when my pup was young I felt it would be better to keep her fast and excited. It was easier to slow her down on my hand with control and focus as she got older.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

yr call is a bit late Thomas, had the dam things on pre-order back in the day so am guessing had the tapes before you did


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

cheers Brad D, will work through it, i wouldn't be concerned if the pup had the technique to drive nose vertically into hand to drive at food but he is tilting his head trying to get at food and mouthing whole food hand and if that doesn't work will break heel position to run in front and try a diferent angle. 

will work on his technique to support that he can get to food if he has correct approach along with other comments - the jumping up biting shoulder seems kinda cool but i can see how it might be a problem with an adult dog lol.

try and get some vid up. won't be anywhere near as interesting as Katryn's vids though.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> yr call is a bit late Thomas, had the dam things on pre-order back in the day so am guessing had the tapes before you did


Peter

Having the DVD's (I don't think they are available as tapes? )
is good BUT you need to study them. If you really study the 4+ hour DVD you wouldn't need to ask what to do here? ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

what else we all gonna discuss?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> what else we all gonna discuss?


Katrins videos? 
or you could post a video and we could see what you need to do to follow ME training?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

noone has a chance since katrin started posting videos but hey i would rather watch hers than mine


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Do you have a good club nearby peter??

Loaded question do you use a clicker???


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

1. only club less than 200km is AKC style obed. never ever never be havin a dog i own go near that scene again never ever......never...AKC/ANKC is pure evil.

2. own a clicker but now dropped it for a verbal mark - same concept but for me more practical - dam dog has to much drive to be bumbling around with a mechanical marking device


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Dont blame you about the club i know what you mean.

Verbal marker is cool,i like to use both at times and sometimes when your having difficulty with a certain exercise the timing of a clicker is excellent.

But if your having trouble with drive i think what Brian said about control and focus is a priority


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Peter Thomas and I are all but hitting you over the head. THE KEY IS ME!!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

sorry Brian i am listening and thank you and everyone else for suggestions and will be putting them to practice no doubt - your posts hint at i'm missing something. is the ME as in me, myself or ME the pro trainer?? - i don't get subtle, and yes i'm re-thinking things right from very next session.

only so much can comm on forum, vid will follow - hell i made my own u-tube channel for this.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ME = Michael Ellis DVDs. EXCELLENT for marker training....but you have to watch it and try it.
From your post at the top you don't seem to understand the marker training concept.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ... your posts hint at i'm missing something. is the ME as in me, myself or ME the pro trainer??


You referred to Michael Ellis as ME in your first post. 




Bob Scott said:


> ME = Michael Ellis DVDs. EXCELLENT for marker training....*but you have to watch it and try it.
> From your post at the top you don't seem to understand the marker training concept*.



I gotta agree with this. You said you have the DVDs. 

Watch the DVDs! :lol:


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> he is tilting his head trying to get at food and mouthing whole food hand and if that doesn't work will break heel position to run in front and try a diferent angle.


He doesn't know enough basics to progress to full out heeling yet. Teach the position first without any motion. Perfect that first. No nudging, no fighting to get at the food. You stand, as soon as dog gets in position "YES!" reach down quickly and with meaning deliver the food, done! If he tries to bug the hand just ignore him, you can do a verbal nah-ah but not a harsh correction, and just stand there and wait him out. The second he stops the nonsense and gets into position WHAMO! "YES!!" and quick treat delivery, then back to stoic and wait him out. This whole time you only hold one piece of food in your left hand at a time, closed fist so that the dog can't get at it. Reload one treat at a time from your right hand (having a few treats ready in the other hand is much faster then having them in your pocket).

It might take him a while at first, but that's all I would do until you get a solid and focused dog doing just this with you standing still. Then you can add one step at a time. You're a long way from walking-heeling.

You need to teach the pup to control himself while in drive, not to lower his drive.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

and i always start teaching the position against a wall, my kitchen cupboards--whatever you have that forces him into a straight position. then i start with one step at a time (like marta said above)...let us know how it goes!!


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

ann schnerre said:


> and i always start teaching the position against a wall, my kitchen cupboards--whatever you have that forces him into a straight position. then i start with one step at a time (like marta said above)...let us know how it goes!!


oh yeah I forgot that lol

the more you can limit his choices by controlling his environment the more likely he will make the right choice which you can then reward and you won't have to deal with some of the hectic spinning, etc


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