# Who is in control?



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Every now and then we have posts from "experienced" down to "newcomers" trying to explain how their dog thinks.

There is actually a very simple rule when dealing with dogs. I don't always know what I'm getting but I do know what I want.

I haven't always the time to sort out why my dogs do what they do. I only know that what they are doing is in bounds or not. If not, I stop.

I have always had two intact dogs living together, the latter two, less harmoniously than their others.

I am not an expert, I cannot always interpret their reactions but, I will not tolerate growling and insubordinate behaviour.

I had Rottweiler breeder friends and one of the bitches growled when I stroked her - all of the other dogs ddn't show this attitude. I was not afraid of her but I often wonder what I would have done had she been mine.

I often think when I read certain posts "why complicate matters by "wondering" why the dog is doing what he shouldn't be." If you find out why, it maybe too late to stop it.

Dogs are simple creatures - they don't have complicated characters - if they do - we made them so.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I wish I had said that!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Every now and then we have posts from "experienced" down to "newcomers" trying to explain how their dog thinks.
> 
> There is actually a very simple rule when dealing with dogs. I don't always know what I'm getting but I do know what I want.
> 
> ...


=D>=D>=D>


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

While, in general, I agree with you....Finding out a 'why' can be very helpful too. 

A teammate has a very nice young intact male who he is very happy with. He does Sch and SAR and the dog is a pretty strong dog. Has been recently growling. Owner assumes behaviour and has been instituting discipline (he is a very fair guy, but will not accept an aggressive dog). Dogs growling was not getting better, it was actually getting worse and he was considering his options (first being neutering, last was getting rid of dog). Another teammate who very much believes in finding out 'why?" (she is a dog behaviorist) suggested looking into less obvious pain issues (dog has been to vet and basically checked out--all systems were fine). Owner decided to give it a chance---took him to an acupuncturist and chiropractor. Both said dog had pain in one section in his back. Dog growled at the practitioners when they worked on that spot....Dog no longer growls at anyone. So, why does actually matter. Maybe not worth months of pondering, but definitely worth some amount of thought.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good post Gillian!
Understanding "why" can be fun, even informative but it doesn't take the place of good old pack leadership.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson:

I agree - growling can be a sign of painful issues. I am talking about dogs who "I assume" are healthy and, if they start growling for no apparent reason, I do investigate.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Nice post. There are times the "why" holds the keys to problem solving. But there is in my view wayyyyy to much "over thinking" which usually leads to conflict and ironically miscommunication.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Well G- nice!!!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Every now and then we have posts from "experienced" down to "newcomers" trying to explain how their dog thinks.
> 
> There is actually a very simple rule when dealing with dogs. I don't always know what I'm getting but I do know what I want.
> 
> ...



well said!!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

For the most part I would completely agree. 

I did have a dog that at the age of 5 months started to become increasingly more aggressive to other dogs, especially bouncy big dogs that wanted to play rough. It wasnt a really sudden change, it was gradual and subtle.

Nothing I did seemed to be working and she seemed fit and healthy but I got an orthovet that I know to take a look at her. She was evenly muscled and her stride patterns seemed fine but there was a slight pain reflex at the elbows. Turned out on further examination with CT scan that she really had quite bad ED with complete fractures of the coronoid processes. She was very good at hiding the pain and being bilateral was more difficult to pick but it must have hurt when other dogs played rough with her. Once I knew what the problem was it was much easier to manage.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Weeeelllll! I think this is where much of the problem starts. Most people really do believe that dogs are "simple creatures". Basic dog behavior is not simple. It is pretty complex, albiet, not as complex as we are simply because we have a penchant for overthinking things and making mountains out of mole hills. Other than that, the behaviors are very similar, dogs just don't over think everything. It is black or white. I have always said if you want to understand dog behavior, watch people.....minus the overthinking of course. Dogs are just simple creatures, that is why there are endless discussions about why dogs do things....with few answers. That is not a simple creature.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Weeeelllll! I think this is where much of the problem starts. Most people really do believe that dogs are "simple creatures". Basic dog behavior is not simple. It is pretty complex, albiet, not as complex as we are simply because we have a penchant for overthinking things and making mountains out of mole hills. Other than that, the behaviors are very similar, dogs just don't over think everything. It is black or white. I have always said if you want to understand dog behavior, watch people.....minus the overthinking of course. Dogs are just simple creatures, that is why there are endless discussions about why dogs do things....with few answers. That is not a simple creature.


I think the main problem is that too many people humanize their dogs. They apply human feelings to the dog. Treat them like kids or babies and thats where most of the problems start.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Weeeelllll! I think this is where much of the problem starts. Most people really do believe that dogs are "simple creatures". Basic dog behavior is not simple. It is pretty complex, albiet, not as complex as we are simply because we have a penchant for overthinking things and making mountains out of mole hills. Other than that, the behaviors are very similar, dogs just don't over think everything. It is black or white. I have always said if you want to understand dog behavior, watch people.....minus the overthinking of course. Dogs are just simple creatures, that is why there are endless discussions about why dogs do things....with few answers. That is not a simple creature.


At last I understand! Thank God someone explained in black-and-white terms! With shades of gray. But gray is black mixed with white so really it's still like explaining it in black and white. And the gray is a really clear gray, if you get my meaning. Not that fuzzy, obfuscating gray. More like an opaque but transparent gray. And black and white.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> At last I understand! Thank God someone explained in black-and-white terms! With shades of gray. But gray is black mixed with white so really it's still like explaining it in black and white. And the gray is a really clear gray, if you get my meaning. Not that fuzzy, obfuscating gray. More like an opaque but transparent gray. And black and white.


Precisely Connie!!! No way a dog could have come up with that. LOL Takes a human to think in those terms!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> I think the main problem is that too many people humanize their dogs. They apply human feelings to the dog. Treat them like kids or babies and thats where most of the problems start.


Not neccesarily. For instance you know your dog is fast in agility but you know it could be faster, how do you unlock that extra speed, I think Susan Garrett calls it the squirrel factor or something like that. Or with herding your dog is born with a certain set of genetic traits and as a handler you have to understand where the strengths and weaknessess lie in what your dog was born with so you can best work out how to manage and enhance how your dog works. This is what keeps me interested in the whole thing. 


Having well behaved dogs is one thing but taking them to the best of their ability in performance or working is another


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I often think when I read certain posts "why complicate matters by "wondering" why the dog is doing what he shouldn't be." If you find out why, it maybe too late to stop it.


You won't ever be able to find out why, as there's no way the dog can reply if that actually was the right answer. You can guess, you can assume, but you can never prove it. You can only try to influence the dog's behaviour. That will probaly be based on some more assumptions, but still, that's the only way you can "control".

Even if your "control" of the dog's behaviour results in the desired effect, you still have no proof of the validiity of your reasoning.

But who cares? It's the outcome that counts. :mrgreen:


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I've had years of raising Rottweilers and found some are just talkers (growls) and my worst scenario was two females (half sisters) who would kill each other. Two males would bluff, get physical & quit. You do have to know what is going on with your dog and not allow it to escalate as Gillian expressed; also in agreement that we must be in charge always not whenever.
I also teach that we must listen to what you are hearing not every growl or bark is wrong or aggression. Breeds differ also. Listen to tone, I think women are better at listening than men, at least in my case listening was acquired


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Steve, I think that your comment "women are better listeners" is talking a lot for granted. I have never found that to be the case. Just personal observation of a blanket statement. "Some" women are better listners, but, the three I was married to were not. :grin: I have to assume there are just a lot more in that category.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Steve, I think that your comment "women are better listeners" is talking a lot for granted. I have never found that to be the case. Just personal observation of a blanket statement. "Some" women are better listners, but, the three I was married to were not. :grin: I have to assume there are just a lot more in that category.


 
Oh Don this comment made me smile. I had a boyfriend once and we were together for awhile. When we split his main complaint was that I didnt listnen. I asked him what he meant. 

His interpretation of not listening was that I didnt do what he told me to.

I listened all right I just quite often had a different opinion of what I was going to do. 

There was me thinking that I somehow hadnt listened to some deep dark emotional things about his childhood or his dream and aspirations. Our intreptation of listening was quite different.

He on the other hand never listened to me either and did exactly what he was going to do, but somehow that was alright and didnt fall into the category of not listening.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I could be wrong but , I'm assuming Don is talking about women not listening to things like advice . For me I've found the longer I've been in a relationship with a woman the less they listen to my advice , no matter how good or well intended it was . Like ; " Don't let the dog out while I'm gone . " . Then it almost bites someone while I'm gone . 

But as for actually listening to what people say I swear they have computers in their brains , they know the exact date , time , what you were wearing and weather conditions at the time I said something . What I actually meant when I said such thing is another story .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I could be wrong but , I'm assuming Don is talking about women not listening to things like advice . For me I've found the longer I've been in a relationship with a woman the less they listen to my advice , no matter how good or well intended it was . Like ; " Don't let the dog out while I'm gone . " . Then it almost bites someone while I'm gone .
> 
> But as for actually listening to what people say I swear they have computers in their brains , they know the exact date , time , what you were wearing and weather conditions at the time I said something . What I actually meant when I said such thing is another story .


Jim, I am convinced that they don't remember all that in detail. They just make it up so they sound like they remember it to the smallest detail because they know we don't remember it. They just haven't figured out that men think differently and just don't give a rip what was said last week because, well, that was last week.

I am packing my ex GF's stuff up to take to her this week. PITA. I told her to quit packing all this shit up here 15 years ago....now I got to move it all out. Thirty place mats but we never have company. Twenty parfait glases, but we never have company. Thitry different wine glasses, but we don't have company and I don't drink wine. Four big boxes of Chistmas stuff that I never let her put up. Two good sized boxes of VHS movies, but I kept telling her I don't have a VHS player. Same with CD's. In the end, the only thing she listened to is when I said, "This isn't working for me. " How many times have you seen a "help question put on the board because of a problem they are having with their dog. They explain "exactly what the problem is. Some people give some very sound advice only to be told that their advice won't work and the dog is doing better today. Can't count the times can you. On the other hand, if you read their mind and say what they want to hear, they will hear every word. I got to get back to packing.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jim, I am convinced that they don't remember all that in detail. They just make it up so they sound like they remember it to the smallest detail because they know we don't remember it. They just haven't figured out that men think differently and just don't give a rip what was said last week because, well, that was last week.
> 
> 
> 
> > I never thought of that . Damn it , fooled again !


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am packing my ex GF's stuff up to take to her this week. PITA. I told her to quit packing all this shit up here 15 years ago....now I got to move it all out. Thirty place mats but we never have company. Twenty parfait glases, but we never have company. Thitry different wine glasses, but we don't have company and I don't drink wine. Four big boxes of Chistmas stuff that I never let her put up. Two good sized boxes of VHS movies, but I kept telling her I don't have a VHS player. Same with CD's. In the end, the only thing she listened to is when I said, "This isn't working for me. " How many times have you seen a "help question put on the board because of a problem they are having with their dog. They explain "exactly what the problem is. Some people give some very sound advice only to be told that their advice won't work and the dog is doing better today. Can't count the times can you. On the other hand, if you read their mind and say what they want to hear, they will hear every word. I got to get back to packing.


She heard everything you said , she was just marking her territory . Funny how fast things started to look around my places once I started seeing someone for more then a week . 

With young kids I avoid having women home around the kids until sometime passes and I don't let them leave evidence behind for the kids sake . But I do let them hang there when I'm at work and the kids are back with there mom . Since they can't leave the mark with some of their stuff they take pictures of themselves around my house with their phones and send them out to their friends . Same kinda thing .

What are parfiat glasses ? Don had parfait glasses in his house . Sounds funny .


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> ... What are parfiat glasses ? Don had parfait glasses in his house . Sounds funny .


You put layered (pretty) desserts in them.

http://www.penzeys.com/cgi-bin/penzeys/recipes/r-penzeysFreshFruitParfait.html


I don't have any. Never knew I could maybe have borrowed some from Don. :lol:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You put layered (pretty) desserts in them.
> 
> http://www.penzeys.com/cgi-bin/penzeys/recipes/r-penzeysFreshFruitParfait.html
> 
> ...


Looks really good ! Guess I got to find a woman who knows how to make them .


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> I could be wrong but , I'm assuming Don is talking about women not listening to things like advice . For me I've found the longer I've been in a relationship with a woman the less they listen to my advice , no matter how good or well intended it was . Like ; " Don't let the dog out while I'm gone . " . Then it almost bites someone while I'm gone .
> 
> .


That is what men usually do, I never trusted boyfriends to properly manage my dogs when I was gone for a few days so I put em in kennels, not after he left one of them at a gas station after he had fueled up. Came home without the dog - completely forgot and why did he let it out anyway? Fortunately it was the sort of dog that stayed put and waited. I was always looking after various mens dogs but never trusted them with mine.

30 Parfait glasses? heck round here I am lucky to find more than 2 spare glass to drink out when guests visit LOL

As I said I always listen to advice but whether I decide to use it or not is my call, some of it was just darn stupid, even if the man giving it didnt think so.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Looks really good ! Guess I got to find a woman who knows how to make them .


There's always the liquid kind:

http://www.spiritdrinks.com/cocktails/AbsolutAmore.asp


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> There's always the liquid kind:
> 
> http://www.spiritdrinks.com/cocktails/AbsolutAmore.asp


That looks good too but I'd look a little funny in the bar drinking that thing . I'm going out later this week . Been awhile , but I'll keep that in mind if I buy any ladies a drink .


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Though I think it ruins two good beers, if you need a mans parfiat try a Black and Tan.

Myself, I'll settle for a two colored parfiat with a good stout with a nice head.


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Steve, I think that your comment "women are better listeners" is talking a lot for granted. I have never found that to be the case. Just personal observation of a blanket statement. "Some" women are better listners, but, the three I was married to were not. :grin: I have to assume there are just a lot more in that category.


 

LOL! That has been my observation also! You can give the same advice to both a man and woman, with no guarantee that either will follow the advice, but at least the man will actually listen!

For example you say “You can borrow the old truck, but it burns oil so make sure you check the oil and top it off when you fill the fuel tank.”

A man hears “You can borrow the old truck, but it burns oil so make sure you check the oil and top it off when you fill the fuel tank.”

A woman hears “Blah, blah, blah……something about an oil tank…… blah, blah……”

When they drive off and you say “Remember to check the oil!”

A man hears “Remember to check the oil!”

A woman hears “He thinks I am an incompetent child who needs to be reminded every little thing. What a male-chauvinist-pig-control-freak! Typical man- thinks that just because he owns a truck that makes him macho and some kind of expert. Hummph….Hell, the only people I’ve ever know that ran the car out of gas were men. My mother sure never ran out of gas. How does he think I get back and forth to work with my own car? Does he think it fills itself up with gas? I am a grown woman….I do NOT need to be reminded to buy gas……”

No offense intended towards anyone- if the shoe doesn’t fit then you don’t have to wear it. I just found Don’s post right on the mark because I deal with this sort of stuff all the time.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

What a load of bollocks if I ever heard it !

We all know why guys whistle on the toilet don't we ??

It helps them remember which end to wipe ! LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LMAO. Tony, look like you got a bit to close to home for Maggie. I do think you said if the shoe doesn't fit then you don't have to wear it.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> What a load of bollocks if I ever heard it !
> 
> We all know why guys whistle on the toilet don't we ??
> 
> It helps them remember which end to wipe ! LOL


Now that's funny right there, don't care who ya are.

DFrost


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Tony Hahn said:


> LOL! That has been my observation also! You can give the same advice to both a man and woman, with no guarantee that either will follow the advice, but at least the man will actually listen!


That is so wrong! LOL

I got a handyman to come in and put some laserlite roofing on my patio while I was a way. As he hadnt done laserlite before and I had done some reading on it, I told him that it needed to be put on with the UV coating facing the sun and told him what overlap was recommended.

He must have heard Blah Blah etc cos when I got back hmore than half the sheets were on upside down and the overlap was minimal. To add to the problem he hadnt put enough slope on and the roof flood in the first rain.

Result was I had to pull it all off and redo it myself and when I turned the laserlite right side up the holes were now all in the gunnels instead of the ridges.

Good thing was I got the confidence to do it and finished the rest of the roof myself.

I was also on a trip with a guy who believed we had enough petrol to get back from where we came as had calculated how much we used to get there. I did my own calculations and I said to him remember we are going back into a stiff head wind.

Must have heard Blah Blah cos we ran out of freakin petrol in the middle of nowhwere and his girlfriend and I had to hitch a lift from a passing truckie to the nearest farm to buy some petrol. Good thing I knew where that farm was or we would have been screwed as the farmer took us back and also was able to bleed the air from the diesel engine which my male friend had no idea about.

Men might listen to other men but they sure as hell often dont listen to women LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Where did I go wrong? 
Just shy of 44yrs married to the same lady and still best buds. We even like one another...a lot! :-k :wink:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Where did I go wrong?
> Just shy of 44yrs married to the same lady and still best buds. We even like one another...a lot! :-k :wink:


It does happen! my mum and dad were the same, they listened to each other and made joint decisions together LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> It does happen! my mum and dad were the same, they listened to each other and made joint decisions together LOL


my parents were married for 57 yrs, til my mom passed.
my dad eloped off to vegas to marry a women he met on Eharmony less than a year later. I call him up to see how he is doing, he tells me he is getting married that weeekend in vegas and dont tell anyone...LOL 

I didnt even know he had a girlfriend.. I dont like that woman much, but she did marry my dad, he kinda has to have someone to keeping him from doing stupid things, kinda like me

I then found out that anyone I might have told, knew before me anyhow...sisters, aunts, etc....so not sure who he thought I was gonna tell???


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

maggie fraser said:


> What a load of bollocks if I ever heard it !
> 
> We all know why guys whistle on the toilet don't we ??
> 
> It helps them remember which end to wipe ! LOL


That's very funny; if you don't know how to whistle you're in trouble. I didn't think mentioning men & women would throw this thread so far off LOL! More explosive than fertilizer.....:-\"


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMAO. Tony, look like you got a bit to close to home for Maggie. I do think you said if the shoe doesn't fit then you don't have to wear it.


Haha, yeah, I probably should not have posted.

What prompted me was just a few hours before reading the thread I was dealing with that sort of "issue" (again8-[). The majority of females in both my personal and professional life have exhibited this trait. 

LOL, if the shoe doesn't fit, well it's not yours to wear!

G'day to all.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Tony Hahn said:


> Haha, yeah, I probably should not have posted.
> 
> What prompted me was just a few hours before reading the thread I was dealing with that sort of "issue" (again8-[). The majority of females in both my personal and professional life have exhibited this trait.


Maybe....just like Don, it is the kind of women you attract/fraternise with, you know.....the ones with some fresh air between the ears who just love that macho mumbo. Just a thought of course !


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Oh, without a doubt I have come to the same conclusion that a certain “type” of female is attracted to me. That knowledge came about a bit late, but at least I did figure it out eventually. That doesn’t explain how I end up dealing with them professionally though. 

You misunderstand if you think they are dumb (“fresh air between the ears”). You misunderstand if you think that I think they are dumb. That isn’t the case at all. It has little to do with actual intelligence. 

The issue reminds me of the old story about an ancient Sensei who was trying to teach a student but not getting through. 

Finally the Sensei sat his student down for tea. He begins to fill the student’s cup while they chatted. He kept pouring and pouring until the cup overflowed and the student exclaimed “Stop! My cup cannot hold any more tea!” 

The Sensei then explained- your mind is like the cup. I am trying to give you information but your cup is already full. You must make space in your mind so that you can absorb more knowledge. 

That is the kind of woman issue I am referring to. They are not by any stretch stupid; it’s just that their cup is full. They are too busy being offended, or thinking about what they want to do doesn’t leave room for what they need to do, or they are concerned that they will appear “submissive” if they listen, or who knows????

Whatever the reason(s), their cup is full and the tea runs out all over the floor.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Tony Hahn said:


> Oh, without a doubt I have come to the same conclusion that a certain “type” of female is attracted to me. That knowledge came about a bit late, but at least I did figure it out eventually. That doesn’t explain how I end up dealing with them professionally though.
> 
> You misunderstand if you think they are dumb (“fresh air between the ears”). You misunderstand if you think that I think they are dumb. That isn’t the case at all. It has little to do with actual intelligence.
> 
> ...


Give me a F***** break ! #-o What a twat !!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tony Hahn said:


> I deal with this sort of stuff all the time.





Tony Hahn said:


> ... The majority of females in both my personal and professional life have exhibited this trait.





Tony Hahn said:


> I have come to the same conclusion that a certain “type” of female is attracted to me.




What is it about you, do you think, that triggers this attraction in your life? :lol: :lol:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What is it about you, do you think, that triggers this attraction in your life? :lol: :lol:


Connie

I think Maggie had the answer in the previous reply?


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

maggie fraser said:


> Give me a F***** break ! #-o What a twat !!!


OK……. Sorry?

I apologize for contributing to the derailment of this thread. Please return to the regularly scheduled program:-#


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Reading Tony's post then seeing the replies kind of makes you think . :-k


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Reading Tony's post then seeing the replies kind of makes you think . :-k


You don't wanna make a habit of that Jim, best just gobble down a couple extra donuts instead .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Imthink Tony hit the nail on the head about some cups already being full because they are afraid they will appear submissive....or feminine....right Maggie? Or, maybe, like in your case, already too busy trying to think up and answer to something your not hearing.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Tony Hahn said:


> That is the kind of woman issue I am referring to. They are not by any stretch stupid; it’s just that their cup is full. They are too busy being offended, or thinking about what they want to do doesn’t leave room for what they need to do, or they are concerned that they will appear “submissive” if they listen, or who knows????
> 
> Whatever the reason(s), their cup is full and the tea runs out all over the floor.


I think you will find this also applies to many men LOL. Many years ago I spent time as a company agronomist giving advice to farmers. You got those who were happy to look past me being a woman and listen to what I had to say. Others would hang up if they got me on the end of the phone.

I built great working relationships with farmers who were seeking knowledge and didnt care who you were as long as the advice and work you did with them was good. We did some great research together. I got nowhere with those whose minds were closed to taking advice from women and that was their choice.

Their cups were full LOL. Even the farmers I worked with thought they were just being macho stupid and told me not to worry about them.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Tony Hahn said:


> A woman hears “He thinks I am an incompetent child who needs to be reminded every little thing. What a male-chauvinist-pig-control-freak! Typical man- thinks that just because he owns a truck that makes him macho and some kind of expert. Hummph….Hell, the only people I’ve ever know that ran the car out of gas were men. My mother sure never ran out of gas. How does he think I get back and forth to work with my own car? Does he think it fills itself up with gas? I am a grown woman….I do NOT need to be reminded to buy gas……”


OUCHHH, this could be me at some days...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Imthink Tony hit the nail on the head about some cups already being full because they are afraid they will appear submissive....or feminine....right Maggie? Or, maybe, like in your case, already too busy trying to think up and answer to something your not hearing.


Or Men who think they are too macho to take advice from a women in say agriculture and are afraid that in taking that advice they will appear weak or perhaps even their manhood is threatened.

As I said it works both ways guys! both sexes are guilty! I am listening to what you are sayin but are you also listening to me?

I dont think so LOL


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Imthink Tony hit the nail on the head about some cups already being full because they are afraid they will appear submissive....or feminine....right Maggie? Or, maybe, like in your case, already too busy trying to think up and answer to something your not hearing.


Is appearing submissive and feminine something to be afraid of Don ? I am a little of both depending on the situation, but then I'm a pretty balanced sort of person. Next thing you'll be saying likely is that you have no feminine aspect to your personality at all ?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Is appearing submissive and feminine something to be afraid of Don ?


Not Don but I would say yes for many women it is , especially the further along in a relationship they get .


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I am curious as to why the words submissive and feminine seem to go together? Cant one be feminine with out being submissive. Same for men surely they can be masculine without being dominant? All sounds like a load of bollocks to me as Maggie says.

No wonder I like living on my farm out in the sticks, dont have to put up with too much of this crap.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> I am curious as to why the words submissive and feminine seem to go together? Cant one be feminine with out being submissive. Same for men surely they can be masculine without being dominant? All sounds like a load of bollocks to me as Maggie says.
> 
> No wonder I like living on my farm out in the sticks, dont have to put up with too much of this crap.


Not sure why they seem to go together with you . They don't for me and to answer your question I think one can be feminine without being submissive and also be submissive without being feminine .


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> Not sure why they seem to go together with you . They don't for me and to answer your question I think one can be feminine without being submissive and also be submissive without being feminine .


They dont - just the other posts seem to link them.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Is appearing submissive and feminine something to be afraid of Don ? I am a little of both depending on the situation, but then I'm a pretty balanced sort of person. Next thing you'll be saying likely is that you have no feminine aspect to your personality at all ?


Maggie, you mean like this...".I have no feminine side to my personality at all!" Just ask and you shall receive Maggie. You have to understand, "having a feminine" side...."and getting in touch with your feminine side" are products of the pussification of America. No way would anyone from my time be looking to get in touch with his "feminine side." That bollocks became popular after the men dicovered they were becoming feminine.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maggie, you mean like this...".I have no feminine side to my personality at all!" Just ask and you shall receive Maggie. You have to understand, "having a feminine" side...."and getting in touch with your feminine side" are products of the pussification of America. No way would anyone from my time be looking to get in touch with his "feminine side." That bollocks became popular after the men dicovered they were becoming feminine.


 
To be honest all this talk of feminine side and you could also include masculine side perplexes me. 

I love driving tractors and putting crops in and surfing big waves - does that make me feel masculine? No way, I have never wanted to be a man thank you.

My dad was happy to whip up Sunday lunch for the family and looking after us kids or helping with the washing up, he also fought in the jungles of Burma in the second world war against the Japanese and taught us kids the love of extreme sports.


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