# female in heat



## Debbie Dibble

could any one give any factual information about a female in heat, I talked to 2 vets and they each told me something different. Is the 2nd week the only week she can conceive? Will a male dog hurt himself trying to get to the female if he is kenneled. I want to breed the female later, she's too young now and I want to do some training with her first. Until then I would like to make this as tolerable for all of us as possible. any suggustions


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## Guest

Put them side by side in kennels!


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## Mike Scheiber

Why dont you leave the breeding to the pro's Tell me what is so special about your bitch that you think she should have puppies. Please tell me its not German Shepherd ](*,)


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## Debbie Dibble

Jody Butler said:


> Put them side by side in kennels!


 ok, do you know how many days she will be in ovalation, this is her 13th day, the male has showed no intrest until today, now he is going off the wall. I presently have their crates in front of each other and about 12 ft apart.


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## Harry Keely

whats the number one reason for why you would want to breed her, also theres alot more then just throwing two dogs together because you feel like having a litter now or in the future, where would you hope the pups to go as far as homes. The USA doesn't need anymore pups running around for just the hell of somebody trying to get rich and is curious to see what comes about from a breeding that you think might work. Have you put any thought into trying to be as selective as you can in your breeding making sure the female suits the male in alot of ways to produce working dogs. Just some thoughts amongst many more you need to look into while making a decision to do this.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Debbie Dibble said:


> ok, do you know how many days she will be in ovalation, this is her 13th day, the male has showed no intrest until today, now he is going off the wall. I presently have their crates in front of each other and about 12 ft apart.


If the male waited until the thirteenth day he is showing signs of gayness, do not let them tie. 

The pups will all be gay.


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## Debbie Dibble

Mike Scheiber said:


> Why dont you leave the breeding to the pro's Tell me what is so special about your bitch that you think she should have puppies. Please tell me its not German Shepherd ](*,)[/quote Both my male and female have good temperments, and are nice examples of their breed. They came from good bloodlines and genes. Have good hips and elbows. I'm tired of seeing so called breeders around here just care about the money.


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## Harry Keely

Debbie Dibble said:


> Mike Scheiber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why dont you leave the breeding to the pro's Tell me what is so special about your bitch that you think she should have puppies. Please tell me its not German Shepherd ](*,)[/quote Both my male and female have good temperments, and are nice examples of their breed. They came from good bloodlines and genes. Have good hips and elbows. I'm tired of seeing so called breeders around here just care about the money.
> 
> 
> 
> Genes,bloodlines, what you think are good examples of their breed is still not good enough reasons to breed dogs. Good luck to you I would think long and hard about studying and researching these dogs and be looking for the pros and cons that your going to add to the world.
Click to expand...


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## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Dibble said:


> ok, do you know how many days she will be in ovalation, this is her 13th day, the male has showed no intrest until today, now he is going off the wall. I presently have their crates in front of each other and about 12 ft apart.


As far as I know, this is not standardized. That fertile time can last five days or a week but can vary a lot as to when it starts after the beginning of the heat cycle. It might be eight or ten days but it might not be.

Responsible non-oops-litter owners not doing progesterone testing keep the female 100% separated for the period of five days after the start of the heat until twenty days after the start of the heat. 

I do not have experience and am going by vet manuals alone. I'm sure breeders will correct me if this is not careful enough. I hope they will.

eta
Oops litters are absolutely irresponsible. I'm glad that you are asking how to prevent it.


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## Joby Becker

Debbie Dibble said:


> could any one give any factual information about a female in heat, I talked to 2 vets and they each told me something different. Is the 2nd week the only week she can conceive? Will a male dog hurt himself trying to get to the female if he is kenneled. I want to breed the female later, she's too young now and I want to do some training with her first. Until then I would like to make this as tolerable for all of us as possible. any suggustions


Keep them separated until she is out of season, that is my advice. Should be fine the first week, but if I were you I wouldn't chance it.

Yes a male can hurt himself if around a bitch in season, even if he is kenneled. Its usually a lot worse if he has been bred previously.

Dogs can chew through walls and doors, peel apart metal doors, break crates, rip kennel panels apart, dig under fences, break through windows to get to a bitch. Depends on the dog though.

Easiest way to make it more tolerable is to get rid of you male :-o

Glad you are not breeding her just yet. lol

Probably want to get all the health stuff checked out first, have someone knowledgeable eval the bitch's temp. and nerves and stuff too, and find a good stud that when coupled with her will improve the breed average, at bare minimum.

Ever get that shying away from your hand figured out yet? Could be nerve issues...

Who you going to breed to? Hopefully not the other dog that shy's away from you.


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## Connie Sutherland

Debbie Dibble said:


> Both my male and female have good temperments, and are nice examples of their breed. They came from good bloodlines and genes. Have good hips and elbows.


Future breeding is based on this?


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## Joby Becker

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If the male waited until the thirteenth day he is showing signs of gayness, do not let them tie.
> 
> The pups will all be gay.


I've seen gay dogs...I swear lol


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## Debbie Dibble

Harry Keely said:


> Debbie Dibble said:
> 
> 
> 
> Genes,bloodlines, what you think are good examples of their breed is still not good enough reasons to breed dogs. Good luck to you I would think long and hard about studying and researching these dogs and be looking for the pros and cons that your going to add to the world.
> 
> 
> 
> you guys are assumming alot of things that you dont know, like for 1 I have known trainers, breeders that have been in business for 20 yrs and more that I have consulted with in fact they helped me with picking out my male and female. These so called pro breeders half of what I see, and I'm not saying you but alot of them are Idiots and dont care anything about the breed or the buyer. Just the almighty dollor. Least I've put alot of time money and careness in to what I and others thought would have a good chance of producing some nice pups. You cant make a opinion on someone or something you dont have any knowledge about.
Click to expand...


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## Debbie Dibble

Joby Becker said:


> Keep them separated until she is out of season, that is my advice. Should be fine the first week, but if I were you I wouldn't chance it.
> 
> Yes a male can hurt himself if around a bitch in season, even if he is kenneled. Its usually a lot worse if he has been bred previously.
> 
> Dogs can chew through walls and doors, peel apart metal doors, break crates, rip kennel panels apart, dig under fences, break through windows to get to a bitch. Depends on the dog though.
> 
> Easiest way to make it more tolerable is to get rid of you male :-o
> 
> Glad you are not breeding her just yet. lol
> 
> Probably want to get all the health stuff checked out first, have someone knowledgeable eval the bitch's temp. and nerves and stuff too, and find a good stud that when coupled with her will improve the breed average, at bare minimum.
> 
> Ever get that shying away from your hand figured out yet? Could be nerve issues...
> 
> Who you going to breed to? Hopefully not the other dog that shy's away from you.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Debbie Dibble said:


> you guys are assumming alot of things that you dont know, like for 1 I have known trainers, breeders that have been in business for 20 yrs and more that I have consulted with in fact they helped me with picking out my male and female.


Who, if you don't mind me asking, are these trainers/breeders ?


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## Candy Eggert

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Who, if you don't mind me asking, are these trainers/breeders ?


So glad this wasn't posted in the conflict-not-so-free zone 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...tral-indiana-dog-assessment-13671/#post163267


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## Debbie Dibble

I'm not breeding any thing yet until I see if things are checking, I'm not rushing anything. The female is only around 14 months, She coming along really good, she was never socialized for the first 10 months thats why she was leary of the house and me for weeks. She was the last one of the litter all the others were taken at 8 weeks. I have seen her littermates and they are alll in schutzhund training. And doing well. If things dont work out with her, I will use my male as a stud or get another female latter. I have had offers people wanting to use my male but I wont let my male breed with just any female.


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## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> Keep them separated until she is out of season, that is my advice. Should be fine the first week, but if I were you I wouldn't chance it.
> 
> Yes a male can hurt himself if around a bitch in season, even if he is kenneled. Its usually a lot worse if he has been bred previously.
> 
> _*Dogs can chew through walls and doors, peel apart metal doors, break crates, rip kennel panels apart, dig under fences, break through windows to get to a bitch. Depends on the dog though.*_
> 
> Easiest way to make it more tolerable is to get rid of you male :-o
> 
> Glad you are not breeding her just yet. lol
> 
> Probably want to get all the health stuff checked out first, have someone knowledgeable eval the bitch's temp. and nerves and stuff too, and find a good stud that when coupled with her will improve the breed average, at bare minimum.
> 
> Ever get that shying away from your hand figured out yet? Could be nerve issues...
> 
> Who you going to breed to? Hopefully not the other dog that shy's away from you.


Thats why I said kenneled side by side...entertainment!! For someone else..... LOL


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## Harry Keely

Debbie Dibble said:


> Harry Keely said:
> 
> 
> 
> yo guys are assumming alot of things that you dont know, like for 1 I have known trainers, breeders that have been in business for 20 yrs and more that I have consulted with in fact they helped me with picking out my male and female. These so called pro breeders half of what I see, and I'm not saying you but alot of them are Idiots and dont care anything about the breed or the buyer. Just the almighty dollor. Least I've put alot of time money and careness in to what I and others thought would have a good chance of producing some nice pups. You cant make a opinion on someone or something you dont have any knowledge about.
> 
> 
> 
> There are plenty of smucks breeding that have been in business for twenty years ( wont go to bashing and airing that info), Why and how were your dogs picked, Anyone that is not breeding primarily for themselves and everybody second shouldn't be breeding the first place, defently a sign of money hungry fools, Just because you spend money on your dogs and care still doesn't qualify for breeding, those two things are a day to day occurence for keeping up a working dog. I for one and many others on here have a up probally on most the rest on raising working pups wheter been whelped by us or purchase at 6 weeks or older and imprinted to finished. You can never do to much evaluating and researching. On that note you can take all of this for what its worth from myself and the others or do what you feel like. Not insulting your dogs just curious to hear why others thinking are before they breed especially when their trying to produce true working dogs.;-)
Click to expand...


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## Debbie Dibble

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Who, if you don't mind me asking, are these trainers/breeders ?


 Rudy Drexler is one, he is in Elkhart In and has trained for 35 yrs, Police Dept come from all over the states to trainwith him, I also know Adam Kuhns in IL, Brad Faust in Elkhart is a police officer and his father is certified as a master trainer. My brother was trained by Rudy Drexler and has been training for about 8 yr,


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## Gerry Grimwood

Debbie Dibble said:


> I'm not breeding any thing yet until I see if things are checking, I'm not rushing anything. The female is only around 14 months, She coming along really good, she was never socialized for the first 10 months thats why she was leary of the house and me for weeks. She was the last one of the litter all the others were taken at 8 weeks. I have seen her littermates and they are alll in schutzhund training. And doing well. If things dont work out with her, I will use my male as a stud or get another female latter. I have had offers people wanting to use my male but I wont let my male breed with just any female.


Personally, I know zero about breeding and am not shy about saying so. 

Having said that, I think I just might know more than you...and if I was you I would just concentrate on the dogs you have and forget about breeding for now.

You can always breed later if you want, and it probably will be better then.


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## Steve Strom

Connie Sutherland said:


> Future breeding is based on this?


No that wouldnt make any sense at all. It's based on all the "careness" thats been put in.


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## Debbie Dibble

Steve Strom said:


> No that wouldnt make any sense at all. It's based on all the "careness" thats been put in.


 I didnt say it was all about careness, I said that i am not out just for the money part of it . I been around long enough to know what I like to see in a working dog and I'm pretty sure it's probably the same as you. If the dogs I have don't work out to breed LATER than OK. Its not set in stone. Some people just want to be insulting and they dont even bother to read whats being said.


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## Joby Becker

Debbie Dibble said:


> Hi everyone, Tis is my first time on this web site, I had a question. I have 2 czech shephards,1 female, 1 male. *The male I have raised from a puppy,the female is fairly new to me about couple months. She is alittle over 1yrs old. Every time I go to pet either one of them they pull back, I have never hit either one of them, *I'm just wondering if this is a trust issue or if this is a normal response, I think its the sudden reaching out for them they dont like. I thought maybe its from having to do things to them they dont like, like cleaning ears or doing nails, Is there a way to work on this with them or should I always just call them to me. It kinda bothers me that they have a negative reaction towards me.


Not normal in my book.



Debbie Dibble said:


> You pretty much have it ! *I dont think hes going to muture til he's almost 4*. ... I do pretty much keep him in *prey drive* *I know he's too inmature for anything hard.*


Wouldn't breed a male GSD that wasn't mature by 2 myself. 



Debbie Dibble said:


> He has alot pohranicni straze lines in him TITUS Z POHRANICNI was his GRANDFATHER, He is alittle over 2. seems like as he matures he is getting alittle more attached to me, but most of the time he's got a attitude that says I dont need anybody. He very very rarely shows affection towards me. If he gives me a lick its because he likes to lick my lotion off LOL. *Funny though he can turn on like a light when he is being agitated. Sometimes it takes the helper smackin him with the stick to piss him off, the harder you hit him the more agreesive he becomes.* Seems like every thing he does is to please himself though. Everything is about Chaz as he sees it. Is there a way to change this attitude?


*He turns on like a light when agitated? but sometimes it takes the helper smackin him with a stick? * Hope your agitator is not one of your experts, if he is smacking an immature dog with a stick for protection work. And doesn't sound like he turns on like a light if he needs to be smacked with a stick. 
*NEWSFLASH: Smacking him with a stick is NOT prey.* I thought you said he is too "inmature" for anything hard?

*NEWSFLASH: Smacking him with a stick is HARD.*

*"the harder you hit him the more agressive he becomes"*

Really??? Go figure....



Debbie Dibble said:


> Hi Tamara , I got my male out of colorado, his father is HARD POLICIA, and his mother is RIA LASMON, *ON my female I havent got her pedigree papers yet, still owe 150.00 on her, Ive only had her couple of months*, *she was very unsocialized when I got her I dont think any hands on contact, she has issues but she's coming along great. I know she has mostly czech lines with a bit of west german working line in her, she going to be i think pretty much what I was wanting her to be*, a little stick of dynomite. she's like a little over a year old but has a lot of raw natural Drives to her, Should be fun to work with her, my male is fun, quite a bit more frustrating, but still my boy. he just turned 2 in middle of NOV. *He may just suprise me later.*


Sounds like you don't know much about her.



Debbie Dibble said:


> Wondering if anyone knew of a good honest trainer that could do a assessment for me on a 2yr old male gsd in the north-central part of Indiana.


Was this for your male? Who assessed him?

Debbie.It is apparent from your posts, you don't know much about working dogs...or about the actual quality of your dogs, from what you've posted in the past.

You have stated several issues with your dogs that raise red flags in my mind. 

I am not against someone breeding dogs, or hobbyist breeders, I am one of them. 

But, you are on a working board here, not a pet board. Most any working dog enthusiasts would be against *you* breeding *these 2 dogs* together based on just the little bit of information you have given on here.

So don't get all huffy about it, people are passionate about their breeds, especially the working dog people.....I took the time to read what you wrote before responding......and I am not insulting you...


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## Harry Keely

Debbie Dibble said:


> I didnt say it was all about careness, I said that i am not out just for the money part of it . I been around long enough to know what I like to see in a working dog and I'm pretty sure it's probably the same as you. If the dogs I have don't work out to breed LATER than OK. Its not set in stone. Some people just want to be insulting and they dont even bother to read whats being said.


Dogs fringing 14 months old why did you even bring breeding into discussion. You should be more worried about the bigger picture of trying to make that dog into something at this age then after two or so then consider maybe breeding. From a earlier post on this thread sounds like the dog might have nerve issues knowing that is a number one reason to not breed and reproduce that kinda of stuff.


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## Mike Scheiber

I have seen kitchen tables and floors and into the living room floor covered with pedigrees of people studying, discussing and trying to figure breeding's and you come up with a couple of what YOU conciser fine examples of dogs to be the criteria for these 2 animals to be bred.


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## Debbie Dibble

Joby Becker said:


> Not normal in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't breed a male GSD that wasn't mature by 2 myself.
> 
> 
> 
> *He turns on like a light when agitated? but sometimes it takes the helper smackin him with a stick? *Hope your agitator is not one of your experts, if he is smacking an immature dog with a stick for protection work. And doesn't sound like he turns on like a light if he needs to be smacked with a stick.
> *NEWSFLASH: Smacking him with a stick is NOT prey.* I thought you said he is too "inmature" for anything hard?
> 
> *NEWSFLASH: Smacking him with a stick is HARD.[/B*
> 
> *"the harder you hit him the more agressive he becomes"*
> 
> *Really??? Go figure....*
> 
> 
> 
> *Sounds like you don't know much about her.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Was this for your male? Who assessed him?*
> 
> *Debbie.It is apparent from your posts, you don't know much about working dogs...or about the actual quality of your dogs, from what you've posted in the past.*
> 
> *You have stated several issues with your dogs that raise red flags in my mind. *
> 
> *I am not against someone breeding dogs, or hobbyist breeders, I am one of them. *
> 
> *But, you are on a working board here, not a pet board. Most any working dog enthusiasts would be against you breeding these 2 dogs together based on just the little bit of information you have given on here.
> 
> So don't get all huffy about it, people are passionate about their breeds, especially the working dog people.....*


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## Harry Keely

Joby its not a breed thing its a working dog thing, She does not need to be breeding---period end of discussion after posting what you posted and reading all of this. This is problem with most just because of lines, bthe breeder they get there dogs from they think there dogs are guarantee to work. Pups are a crap shoot in the hands of the experienced, in her hands its a loose, loose battle. If someone can't figure out adults what they going to do with a pup bouncing off the walls when it comes time to redirect that energy towards a worthy purpose in imprinting. This reminds me of somebody else on here that was trying to justify all the crap she was doing with a six month old pup.


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## Joby Becker

Debbie, If you are trying to respond to me you have to type something instead of re-iterating my points.

Your female was the last one left from the litter in your words, why might that be? hmmm

If she doesn't work out you will use your male on another female? WHY?

Breed if you want to, it's your choice. But I wouldn't advertise your litter here. There are tons of red flags, just from a few posts you've made.


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## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> Debbie, If you are trying to respond to me you have to type something instead of re-iterating my points.
> 
> Breed if you want to, it's your choice. But I wouldn't advertise your litter here. There are tons of red flags, just from a few posts you've made.


No reason in any of us telling somebody to breed or not breed, people are going to keep on breeding and destroying the breeds because they think there doing the working dog world a favor.


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## Debbie Dibble

I guess when you only get 1/2 of a story you can get mislead. A while after I got my male I got sick with Cancer, I went through 5 surgerys and chemo. I was to sick to take care of my dog the way he needed. I sent him to a so called professional trainer that I thought screwed him up. When I got Chaz back he was very skinney and wasnt the same dog. I was seeking help to try to figure out where he was at and where I needed to go from there. The trainers around here have been here for along time Rudy is trying to retire, Faust wont do bite work cause of liability reasons, my brother lives in upper MI, 4 hours away, and so does adam kuhns. I did find a trainer and he has been working with Chaz and me and he thinks that that trainer just beat him into a defense drive, seems that that the only drive he knows. Chaz has such a good temperment he seems to be coming along great. we are just going back and trying to bring out his prey drive, he does like the work he has just been trained by an idiot, something that I will regret doing for a long time. I guess when I ask a question I dont want to put out every personal thing in my life. But I can also see people cant give good advice if they dont know the whole story


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## Harry Keely

Debbie Dibble said:


> I guess when you only get 1/2 of a story you can get mislead. A while after I got my male I got sick with Cancer, I went through 5 surgerys and chemo. I was to sick to take care of my dog the way he needed. I sent him to a so called professional trainer that I thought screwed him up. When I got Chaz back he was very skinney and wasnt the same dog. I was seeking help to try to figure out where he was at and where I needed to go from there. The trainers around here have been here for along time Rudy is trying to retire, Faust wont do bite work cause of liability reasons, my brother lives in upper MI, 4 hours away, and so does adam kuhns. I did find a trainer and he has been working with Chaz and me and he thinks that that trainer just beat him into a defense drive, seems that that the only drive he knows. Chaz has such a good temperment he seems to be coming along great. we are just going back and trying to bring out his prey drive, he does like the work he has just been trained by an idiot, something that I will regret doing for a long time. I guess when I ask a question I dont want to put out every personal thing in my life. But I can also see people cant give good advice if they dont know the whole story


Debbie, sorry to hear about your cancer and all but you have been advised and giving good advice before having to give you personal info out. Sorry that you felt doing so would change things but it doesnt as far as your dogs go. As far as your cancer I hope you get better. As far as the dogs don't breed them. Just my opinion and I doubt you will get much variance in that from others.


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## Mike Scheiber

Mike Scheiber said:


> Tell me what is so special about your bitch that you think she should have puppies.


Didn't ask any thing about you and you haven't answered my question


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## Debbie Dibble

Harry Keely said:


> Dogs fringing 14 months old why did you even bring breeding into discussion. You should be more worried about the bigger picture of trying to make that dog into something at this age then after two or so then consider maybe breeding. From a earlier post on this thread sounds like the dog might have nerve issues knowing that is a number one reason to not breed and reproduce that kinda of stuff.


 I didnt ask about breeding I asked about a females heat cycle so that I kept them apart long enough to be sure they didnt breed. I have no intentions of breeding them now. My question was If I could do something that would calm the male down so we all could get through this heat easier. People just read part of something and it goes in a direction that never was even mentioned.


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## Joby Becker

Debbie Dibble said:


> I guess when you only get 1/2 of a story you can get mislead. A while after I got my male I got sick with Cancer, I went through 5 surgerys and chemo. I was to sick to take care of my dog the way he needed. I sent him to a so called professional trainer that I thought screwed him up. When I got Chaz back he was very skinney and wasnt the same dog. I was seeking help to try to figure out where he was at and where I needed to go from there. The trainers around here have been here for along time Rudy is trying to retire, Faust wont do bite work cause of liability reasons, my brother lives in upper MI, 4 hours away, and so does adam kuhns. I did find a trainer and he has been working with Chaz and me and he thinks that that trainer just beat him into a defense drive, seems that that the only drive he knows. Chaz has such a good temperment he seems to be coming along great. we are just going back and trying to bring out his prey drive, he does like the work he has just been trained by an idiot, something that I will regret doing for a long time. I guess when I ask a question I dont want to put out every personal thing in my life. But I can also see people cant give good advice if they dont know the whole story


Debbie I got all the story I needed from your posts already. The personal story doesn't change anything.

Debbie. If a dog is to be used in breeding, *you should find the best quality dogs you can find. period*. Otherwise why do it? 

You did state you were going to breed, and then stated you would breed your male to another bitch if yours doesn't work out.

I went through 15 dogs before I bred my first litter. And I know a lot about dogs. Just promise me that if you breed a litter and you throw a steel food pan down on the floor next to them at 6 weeks that you will kill them all when they run away. I meant if they run, not when they run...i think.....

You're just not getting it. so I am done with this..Again not insulting you, just hoping you don't breed anytime soon. 

If you are not prepared to KILL puppies, you should not breed working dogs in my mind.
Sorry to hear about your cancer,and hope your dogs get all the kinks worked out. 

To answer your question There is NO way to make it easier unless you remove either dog from the household.


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## Harry Keely

Debbie Dibble said:


> could any one give any factual information about a female in heat, I talked to 2 vets and they each told me something different. Is the 2nd week the only week she can conceive? Will a male dog hurt himself trying to get to the female if he is kenneled. I want to breed the female later, she's too young now and I want to do some training with her first. Until then I would like to make this as tolerable for all of us as possible. any suggustions


you say in your beginning intro of this thread you want to breed the female later. leave it alone and let it lie. dont argue with people you asked for adviced and have gotten it. It may not be what you want ot hear but its advice that you asked for.


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## Debbie Dibble

Mike Scheiber said:


> Didn't ask any thing about you and you haven't answered my question


 mike I wasnt talking to you about my self I was trying to talk to Jody I think her name was, you all are blowing this way out of porportion. I'm not out to start my own line or become a breeder. I have a few people that like my dogs and want a puppy from them, I work with my dogs for pleasure for me and for them. I'm not out to title them Sch 3, The most that I want out of them is to protect me and our home. If I breed in the future it will be for a close circle of people.


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## andreas broqvist

how do you guys even care. i had 100 of discutions like this with wuld be breeders.. not one time have this changed ther mind. they want to breed ther dogs and they will do it. who cares?

its funny, if you buy 10 dogs and evaluate then you wuld be mooore than happy if just 40% makes the standards for breeding. other peopel just get on dog and they are always breedebel. go figere el


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## Maren Bell Jones

Debbie Dibble said:


> mike I wasnt talking to you about my self I was trying to talk to Jody I think her name was, you all are blowing this way out of porportion. I'm not out to start my own line or become a breeder. I have a few people that like my dogs and want a puppy from them, I work with my dogs for pleasure for me and for them. I'm not out to title them Sch 3, The most that I want out of them is to protect me and our home. If I breed in the future it will be for a close circle of people.


If your dog has to be beat with a stick to turn him on, he may not even want to defend himself all that badly, let alone you. That's not a good personal protection dog. The female is 14 months old and GSDs are typically just about done right around then in their growth plates. Spay her and you won't have to worry about it again, eh? While you're at it, go find a nice GSD rescue, like the one Kristen Cabe runs, and offer to foster a litter of pups for them for 8 weeks. Will be good practice for you until you can get a truly outstanding breeding pair. GSDs get put down in shelters every single day. No need to add to that number unless they are just about beyond reproach.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Why would anyone go to a public forum and say they are going to breed their dog. I have seen a hundred threads just like this where everyone that thought their dogs were breedworthy enough to breed tries to convince the poster their dogs are crap and they have no business breeding. Never fails.


----------



## jack van strien

](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Mike Scheiber

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why would anyone go to a public forum and say they are going to breed their dog. I have seen a hundred threads just like this where everyone that thought their dogs were breedworthy enough to breed tries to convince the poster their dogs are crap and they have no business breeding. Never fails.


No breeder here and always looking for "the next big thing"


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## Erynn Lucas

Wow, this thread reminds me of countless threads in another pet forum. "I have a male... and a female... I should have a litter because all those other breeders that train, trial, show are just snobs. I should breed pets because people (that have no clue) that see my dogs think they are great and the pro breeders were mean to me when I asked to buy from them."

Interesting.


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## Ron Davidson

Damn. This is brutal.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ron Davidson said:


> Damn. This is brutal.


Yeh, you would think all these people were born perfect. I have to wonder why any of them thought their dogs were breedworthy. Their dogs were perfect also I suppose. You can always spot hobby breeders when they start talking.


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## Anne Jones

Debbie Dibble said:


> I have a few people that like my dogs and want a puppy from them, I work with my dogs for pleasure for me and for them. I'm not out to title them Sch 3, The most that I want out of them is to protect me and our home. If I breed in the future it will be for a close circle of people.



Well now, that really is the most intellegent things that you have said here. NOT.

Talk about the wrong dogs & all the wrong reasons for breeding. You have no interest in titling these dogs,(if they are even capable of it, based on the probable nerve & temperment issues you have posted about) but want to beed them, 'cause a few people (that most likely know less than you about working GSDs) want a puppy & to breed for a close circle of people (friends,relatives & neighbors? that also don't know much). Wow, these should surely be some of the best working dogs on the planet. GEEEZZEEEE.

All reasons why there are so many equally WELL-BRED GSDs being killed every day of the year in shelters.


----------



## Debbie Dibble

Anne Jones said:


> Well now, that really is the most intellegent things that you have said here. NOT.
> 
> Talk about the wrong dogs & all the wrong reasons for breeding. You have no interest in titling these dogs,(if they are even capable of it, based on the probable nerve & temperment issues you have posted about) but want to beed them, 'cause a few people (that most likely know less than you about working GSDs) want a puppy & to breed for a close circle of people (friends,relatives & neighbors? that also don't know much). Wow, these should surely be some of the best working dogs on the planet. GEEEZZEEEE.
> 
> All reasons why there are so many equally WELL-BRED GSDs being killed every day of the year in shelters.


 anne, for one thing the problems that I have with my dogs is not in the dogs, its in alot of other issues, If you dont know what I have, never seen them or their pedigrees then you have nothing to base your advice from. If you want to learn something why dont you look up the scripture that you have under your name and see what it really means, cause the way that you are using it is out of contex. It bothers me everytime I see it.


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## Maren Bell Jones

So what does Proverbs 12:10 mean to you? Breeding your female just because you can? :-k


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## Debbie Dibble

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So what does Proverbs 12:10 mean to you? Breeding your female just because you can? :-k


 I'm not going to get into a disagreement about anything. my point is no one has a right to slam anyone for wanting to breed their dog. no matter what they think their good intentions are by doing so. as far as disguessing scripture I'm surely not going to get into a arguement about that.


----------



## Sue DiCero

Isn't Randy Rhoades in your area? Why not have him test the dogs (both)? 

And for breeding, husband started it after working dogs (k9, sport, etc) for 35 years.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Really though...what did you expect? If they have no temperament and health testing and are not titled or at least extensively tested, don't expect everyone to fall all over themselves begging you for a pup and applauding your decision to add to the gene pool. I don't think there's anyone here who against breeding, but casual/backyard breeding is precisely what is ruining the breed. There's too many nice dogs in rescue and shelters to be casually breeding just because you can. And yes, if you don't understand the canine heat cycle, yes, you're a backyard breeder. I hope you re-evaluate your decision.


----------



## Steve Strom

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yeh, you would think all these people were born perfect. I have to wonder why any of them thought their dogs were breedworthy. Their dogs were perfect also I suppose. You can always spot hobby breeders when they start talking.


I was born perfect. It all went off the rails at 3 or 4.


----------



## Anne Jones

Debbie Dibble said:


> as far as disguessing scripture I'm surely not going to get into a arguement about that.


Then why did you start it....this is a WORKING DOG forum, not a religious forum. 

Give it up, you are the one that brought up the breeding of your dogs issue. Don't make statements or ask questions here if you don't want them addressed or can't back them up with knowledge & experience. Way too many experienced people here to call you on it, if you don't. 

This is NOT the Leerburg site, or other pet sites, where you may find people that are more forgiving in nature to unknowledgable posters trying to come off as knowledgable.


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## Don Turnipseed

Steve Strom said:


> I was born perfect. It all went off the rails at 3 or 4.


Tell me about it Steve. LOL. Didn't have a clue as to how imperfect I was till I got older.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Anne Jones said:


> Then why did you start it....this is a WORKING DOG forum, not a religious forum.
> 
> Give it up, you are the one that brought up the breeding of your dogs issue. Don't make statements or ask questions here if you don't want them addressed or can't back them up with knowledge & experience. Way too many experienced people here to call you on it, if you don't.
> 
> This is NOT the Leerburg site, or other pet sites, where you may find people that are more forgiving in nature to unknowledgable posters trying to come off as knowledgable.


I had no idea this was not a religious forum. 

I'm headed to bible study as we speak!

I pray everyday that my dogs don't bite anybody that never deserved to get bitten. 

:razz::razz:


----------



## Debbie Dibble

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Really though...what did you expect? If they have no temperament and health testing and are not titled or at least extensively tested, don't expect everyone to fall all over themselves begging you for a pup and applauding your decision to add to the gene pool. I don't think there's anyone here who against breeding, but casual/backyard breeding is precisely what is ruining the breed. There's too many nice dogs in rescue and shelters to be casually breeding just because you can. And yes, if you don't understand the canine heat cycle, yes, you're a backyard breeder. I hope you re-evaluate your decision.


 you know not every one wants a working dog to title or in competition. some want to work with them because they like to. As long as both are enjoying what they are doing. I happen to like what I see as far as temperments go in my dogs, and they have been checked out to be healthly. And the male has good hips and elbows. I did'nt say I was going to breed them now or even 6 months from now. But I dont feel I need anyones permission if I do. As far as your extensive tests you can test 2 dogs all you want and does not mean they will produce all great pups. sure it betters your chance but I have seen it go both ways. As long as mine check out good in temperments, hips and healthly I dont feel bad about having a litter with them. No one here even knows their lines or the dogs and yet makes a judgement about them.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Debbie Dibble said:


> you know not every one wants a working dog to title or in competition. some want to work with them because they like to. As long as both are enjoying what they are doing. I happen to like what I see as far as temperments go in my dogs, and they have been checked out to be healthly. And the male has good hips and elbows. I did'nt say I was going to breed them now or even 6 months from now. But I dont feel I need anyones permission if I do. As far as your extensive tests you can test 2 dogs all you want and does not mean they will produce all great pups. sure it betters your chance but I have seen it go both ways. As long as mine check out good in temperments, hips and healthly I dont feel bad about having a litter with them. No one here even knows their lines or the dogs and yet makes a judgement about them.


Debbie, post the pedigrees so you can get beat up some more. Are you a glutton for punishment? You're standing up well under fire.


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## Mike Scheiber

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Debbie, post the pedigrees so you can get beat up some more. Are you a glutton for punishment? You're standing up well under fire.


Pffftt!!! god damn:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Ron Davidson

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Debbie, post the pedigrees so you can get beat up some more. Are you a glutton for punishment? You're standing up well under fire.


I'm with you. She is standing up very well taking a beating like this. Very good nerve if you may.


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## Debbie Dibble

Mike Scheiber said:


> Pffftt!!! god damn:lol::lol::lol:


 I can give you his fathers, mothers name you will have to bring it up, I dont know how to do it, Father of male is Hard Policia and mother is Ria LASMON. I dont feel beat up.:smile:


----------



## Chris Michalek

*HARD Polícia, 37237 IPO3*
​ 





 *Breed :​*​ 
*Date of Birth :​*​ 14 Sep 1999​ *Sex :​*​ 
*Color / Markings :​*​ Sable​ *Registration :​*​ 37237 Breed Survey 5V5/55I​ *Training : *​ IPO3, Schättenger and Counter-Terrorist K-9 Qualified​ *Videos :​*​ 
*Additional Pictures :​*​ 1​ Description Big, black sable K-9. This is the best Slovakian Police 
Dog I have Imported. Fast, full bite, but very social also. The perfect GSD. 
Súrodenci​ Psi 

Hax Polícia, 37238 
 Potomkovia​ Suky 

Cameron Katargo, 45800 
 Návrat Vyhodnotenie potomkov Zostav rodokmen Císlo zápisu: 37237 
RTG: B 

Výstava ku dnu rebonitácie: VD 
Skúška ku dnu rebonitácie: IPO3 
Rebonitácia dna: 19.10.2003 
Miesto rebonitácie: Sabinov 
Bonitacný komisár: Ján Sudimák 
Rebonitacný kód: 5V5/55P 1tr. 

Otec: Agir Agamida, 25794 
Matka: Chanel od Hradu Drahotuch, 27792 CMKU 

Counter-terrorist K-9 "Grandson of famous Titus z Pohraniční Stráže"


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## Chris Michalek

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/516964.html Sire
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/520440.html dam


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=206633514452147397#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPPugnBBLHQ

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/369835/hard_policia_german_shepherd_dog_cqb_k_9/


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## Maren Bell Jones

Debbie Dibble said:


> you know not every one wants a working dog to title or in competition. some want to work with them because they like to. As long as both are enjoying what they are doing. I happen to like what I see as far as temperments go in my dogs, and they have been checked out to be healthly. And the male has good hips and elbows. I did'nt say I was going to breed them now or even 6 months from now. But I dont feel I need anyones permission if I do. As far as your extensive tests you can test 2 dogs all you want and does not mean they will produce all great pups. sure it betters your chance but I have seen it go both ways. As long as mine check out good in temperments, hips and healthly I dont feel bad about having a litter with them. No one here even knows their lines or the dogs and yet makes a judgement about them.


I am really not all that into competition or trialing either. I've done it to support our old local Schutzhund club (and I'd do occasional tournaments when I was a martial arts instructor), but it's just not really my thing. You have two threads, with one asking about an aloof male who doesn't seem particularly bonded to you and doesn't like to be petted by his own owner he's had since he was a pup and the other thread with your male who is being worked in defense. Checked out to be healthy? You mean they go to their yearly vet appointment? What certificates do they have? Do you even have something like the CGC on them? Your dogs have "good" temperaments, but don't like being petted by their own owner, even the boy raised by a pup? How do you know if someone attacked you (and not the dog directly), that he would even have the pack drive to protect you and not just be in it for himself?

Breeding, even just for yourself and a few friends, is difficult too. I don't breed dogs, but I do breed rats. What are you going to if your female has 10+ pups and the people who were previously interested back out (which invariably happens)? What if you end up with over half the litter left unspoken for at 8 weeks? 12 weeks? 16 weeks? All because you chose not to title your parents. It's happened to me with my rats when my last litter produced 15 pups.  Lucky for me, the ones that don't make the cut for pet homes go to my snake. :lol: If you're not going to do it for the betterment of the breed so each generation is better than the last, why do it?


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I am really not all that into competition or trialing either. I've done it to support our old local Schutzhund club (and I'd do occasional tournaments when I was a martial arts instructor), but it's just not really my thing. You have two threads, with one asking about an aloof male who doesn't seem particularly bonded to you and doesn't like to be petted by his own owner he's had since he was a pup and the other thread with your male who is being worked in defense. Checked out to be healthy? You mean they go to their yearly vet appointment? What certificates do they have? Do you even have something like the CGC on them? Your dogs have "good" temperaments, but don't like being petted by their own owner, even the boy raised by a pup? How do you know if someone attacked you (and not the dog directly), that he would even have the pack drive to protect you and not just be in it for himself?
> 
> Breeding, even just for yourself and a few friends, is difficult too. I don't breed dogs, but I do breed rats. What are you going to if your female has 10+ pups and the people who were previously interested back out (which invariably happens)? What if you end up with over half the litter left unspoken for at 8 weeks? 12 weeks? 16 weeks? All because you chose not to title your parents. It's happened to me with my rats when my last litter produced 15 pups.  Lucky for me, the ones that don't make the cut for pet homes go to my snake. :lol: If you're not going to do it for the betterment of the breed so each generation is better than the last, why do it?


Breed Rats? Got snakes? Just curious....


----------



## Debbie Dibble

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I am really not all that into competition or trialing either. I've done it to support our old local Schutzhund club (and I'd do occasional tournaments when I was a martial arts instructor), but it's just not really my thing. You have two threads, with one asking about an aloof male who doesn't seem particularly bonded to you and doesn't like to be petted by his own owner he's had since he was a pup and the other thread with your male who is being worked in defense. Checked out to be healthy? You mean they go to their yearly vet appointment? What certificates do they have? Do you even have something like the CGC on them? Your dogs have "good" temperaments, but don't like being petted by their own owner, even the boy raised by a pup? How do you know if someone attacked you (and not the dog directly), that he would even have the pack drive to protect you and not just be in it for himself?
> 
> Breeding, even just for yourself and a few friends, is difficult too. I don't breed dogs, but I do breed rats. What are you going to if your female has 10+ pups and the people who were previously interested back out (which invariably happens)? What if you end up with over half the litter left unspoken for at 8 weeks? 12 weeks? 16 weeks? All because you chose not to title your parents. It's happened to me with my rats when my last litter produced 15 pups.  Lucky for me, the ones that don't make the cut for pet homes go to my snake. :lol: If you're not going to do it for the betterment of the breed so each generation is better than the last, why do it?


 you have to go back and read some posts to fully understand, I got sick for awhile and couldnt take care of my male at the time(he was the only one I had at the time) anyway I sent him off to a trainer that I trusted, but when he came back he was completely different even towards me he was gone quite a while, I think the trainer was the reason. I worked with Chaz at 8 weeks old, started him at a schutzhund club he was fine until he went to that trainer. After he came back I have been working with him as much as I can He has been x-rayed he was certified in tracking, I have been working with a trainer that is known on this forum, I just havent mentioned his name cause I didnt want to bring him in on it. He thinks that he was just agitated severly and all he knows is a defensive drive. He will stand up and defend but, I wanted to start over with him and bring out his prey drive and I want him to learn protection training and also enjoy what he's doing. I also had a nationally titled decoy work with him and he is also known on this forum, and he says the same thing as the trainer that I been working with. As far as breeding that something that is down the road somewhere, theres a lot of work I want to do with both of them first. My intentions are to produce some nice working puppys, My female comes from a good line she has some issues because she was not socialized at all for the first 10 months, but she has got the drives she just needs alot of one on one work, which I'm dedicated to see her through. I have thought about these things, I have a big house and some kennels started I think everyone take a chance of not selling all their pups. But I have tried to plan for something like that. Right now where I live there is a high demand for good working pups and dogs. Dont mean that it will be like that later will see.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> Breed Rats? Got snakes? Just curious....


Yep, I breed rats for both high quality pets (and I do ENS from birth on them too, HA!) and the culls are for my own snake or are sold as humanely raised snake food. The feeder rats in my town are of poor quality and are not well treated. It is kind of like raising your own cattle or sheep for your own food. At least you know where they came from and how they were treated. I just bred from the son of my favorite stud male last night, so if anyone wants some nice pups, let me know.


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yep, I breed rats for both high quality pets (and I do ENS from birth on them too, HA!) and the culls are for my own snake or are sold as humanely raised snake food. The feeder rats in my town are of poor quality and are not well treated. It is kind of like raising your own cattle or sheep for your own food. At least you know where they came from and how they were treated.


I had plenty of snakes in the past...A few had to go to chickens and rabbits.
Hard to get for a snake owner. Would get chickens that the crazy chicken lady had names for and send them off with vitamin packs and special food..that went straight into the trash can...felt kinda bad, they were her "babies" but a snake has to eat too. Finally found a cool farmer that surmised on his own that the chickens and rabbits he was selling me were getting eaten...and he would save me some to make it through after his yearly "harvest". My burm had her own room in the house...cool....had to ask ya...


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## Maren Bell Jones

I've had a couple snakes (used to have a Brazilian rainbow boa and my anerythristic boa constrictor died this summer), but now I just have my jungle carpet python. I try to keep the snakes I have as pets no longer than about 6-8 feet. Just get harder to handle that way and food items go up considerably in price. My next snake will probably be a Hogg Island boa when I move, but my dream snake is a high contrast black headed python.


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've had a couple snakes (used to have a Brazilian rainbow boa and my anerythristic boa constrictor died this summer), but now I just have my jungle carpet python. I try to keep the snakes I have as pets no longer than about 6-8 feet. Just get harder to handle that way and food items go up considerably in price. My next snake will probably be a Hogg Island boa when I move, but my dream snake is a high contrast black headed python.


Cool. I've owned retics, boas, balls, fox, corn, anaconda, and a few burms. Caught a timber rattler in indiana a few years back.
Don't have any currently....my favorite were the burms...good eaters..fairly easy to handle..but not wusses....but this is a dog board LOL.....


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## Erynn Lucas

Very cool! Hubby used to work for ProExotics when we were in CO. He bred the high-end stuff like womas and piebald ball pythons (back when they were rare). He also was in charge of the Gila Monsters. Fun stuff. 

Oh yeah... dogs and breeding...


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## will fernandez

please tell me you didnt pay 4 grand for the puppy


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## Joby Becker

Erynn Lucas said:


> Very cool! Hubby used to work for ProExotics when we were in CO. He bred the high-end stuff like womas and piebald ball pythons (back when they were rare). He also was in charge of the Gila Monsters. Fun stuff.
> 
> Oh yeah... dogs and breeding...


I hated the balls, lamest of the lame...to me anyhow...way too docile..have to hide in a box and eat in the dark when yer not watching them...I had a 14 ft. albino burm...came home one day saw a lump in the snake...couldn't figure it out...my neighbor came by later in the week and told me his cat jumped out of the 3 story window and got really messed up so he decided it was best to toss him in the snake room...I was pissed needless to say..but didn't have to her for a few weeks....


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## Bob Scott

Were talking dog breeding here folks. As much as I love the herps this isn't the place! 
Thanks!


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## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> Were talking dog breeding here folks. As much as I love the herps this isn't the place!
> Thanks!


oops taking it to PM


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## jack van strien

Debbie,
If you know these well known trainers and decoy then why are you looking for a trainer to asses your dog?


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## Martine Loots

What's wrong with treating people with respect??
This woman was asking a question and she's getting attacked like this. 
Why not give constructive responses and advice in stead of trashing her dogs? Some diplomacy wouldn't hurt...
She wasn't even saying she was going to breed the female and I'm sure she'd be willing to listen to good advice.


----------



## Debbie Dibble

jack van strien said:


> Debbie,
> If you know these well known trainers and decoy then why are you looking for a trainer to asses your dog?


 I found the knpv trainer and the decoy trainer on this forum. The other trainers I know around here, 1 is retireing he is getting too old to do bite work, 1 will only do obedience cause he says he dont want the liability, he is a police officer he only trains now with his own dogs. and the other 2 are 4 hours away. upper Mich, and woodstock IL. The 2 that I have recently found I found on this forum and I dont know them well but they seem to know what they are doing.


----------



## Debbie Dibble

will fernandez said:


> please tell me you didnt pay 4 grand for the puppy


 NO I did not pay 4 thousand for him, I wouldnt pay that much for a puppy.


----------



## Amy Swaby

Erynn Lucas said:


> Very cool! Hubby used to work for ProExotics when we were in CO. He bred the high-end stuff like womas and piebald ball pythons (back when they were rare). He also was in charge of the Gila Monsters. Fun stuff.
> 
> Oh yeah... dogs and breeding...


So now that pieds are less rare I can get one and maybe a super pastel right? Or maybe a lesser platinum? One thing I miss while I'm home in Bahamas is snake people...anyway back on topic -coughs-

I find it interesting seeing the replies here, as in "what has the mother done?" But how many times have we seen breeders on this forums say themselves that they like a hard male and a soft female that's good with pups? Did this opinion change all of a sudden or is it only okay to do once you are "elite WDF"?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

I personally like to see working the females same as the males. There has been threads on this previously, but I doubt too very many breeders put an untested/titled male with a well tested/titled female, even if his pedigree is nice.


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## jack van strien

Amy,
I catch your drift,yes maybe and no maybe not.In KNPV people sometimes use untiteld females which have never worked and are just a pet.But make no mistake(where did i hear that?)the people who do this are no beginners and know the bloodline very well!
I do understand Debbie also,i think she wants to do something with her dogs but maybe she should just train her dogs for now and gain some experience about dogs in general.
I have a young female from very good lines and both her parents are good working dogs and i also know some people who would like a pup but i am not going to breed her because there are enough nice dogs around.
I do not consider myself really old but i was training dogs 30 years ago,we made mistakes but stuck with it and now we have some experience.You can read all the books you can find and learn all the right words to use but that does not give you experience.
You need to be out there for years,getting sunburned and nearly freeze your toes off.
The list goes on but i think old people like me will understand.


----------



## Martine Loots

jack van strien said:


> Amy,
> I catch your drift,yes maybe and no maybe not.In KNPV people sometimes use untiteld females which have never worked and are just a pet.But make no mistake(where did i hear that?)the people who do this are no beginners and know the bloodline very well!


That's the way it goes in Belgium too. Most of the time, females are not trained, let go titled. And the ones that are titled are used for competition and not as breeding females.
Personally, I don't care about titles at all, because to me they don't say anything about a dog's quality.

To me it is essential that a female is healthy, comes from a very good bloodline and that she's clear in the head. She has to be confident and shouldn't show stress or fear, because that would be reflected on the pups.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Martine Loots said:


> That's the way it goes in Belgium too. Most of the time, females are not trained, let go titled. And the ones that are titled are used for competition and not as breeding females.
> Personally, I don't care about titles at all, because to me they don't say anything about a dog's quality.
> 
> To me it is essential that a female is healthy, comes from a very good bloodline and that she's clear in the head. She has to be confident and shouldn't show stress or fear, because that would be reflected on the pups.


Exactly the way we "select" our females to breed with.
Healthy, stabile, confident. The influence of the female in relation with "pup-development" is often underestamated.

regards,
Dick


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## jack van strien

Read and reread and remember the two posts above,this is a great learning moment!!!!!


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## Debbie Dibble

jack van strien said:


> Amy,
> I catch your drift,yes maybe and no maybe not.In KNPV people sometimes use untiteld females which have never worked and are just a pet.But make no mistake(where did i hear that?)the people who do this are no beginners and know the bloodline very well!
> I do understand Debbie also,i think she wants to do something with her dogs but maybe she should just train her dogs for now and gain some experience about dogs in general.
> I have a young female from very good lines and both her parents are good working dogs and i also know some people who would like a pup but i am not going to breed her because there are enough nice dogs around.
> I do not consider myself really old but i was training dogs 30 years ago,we made mistakes but stuck with it and now we have some experience.You can read all the books you can find and learn all the right words to use but that does not give you experience.
> You need to be out there for years,getting sunburned and nearly freeze your toes off.
> The list goes on but i think old people like me will understand.


 I think I would like to get back into Schutzhund training with both dogs. There is a club close to me, That I had gone to before, Ronnie Weiss is the trainer there, have you heard of him? The reason I didn't stay with it is because of my work hours, I work in Road Constuction Asphalt, concrete. So it is seasonal work for 9 months we work 12-15 hours aday and 6 days a week. 3 months off. Which are Jan, Feb, Mar. The clubs members are so dedicated, I felt like I couldnt put in the time that I needed to to be involved in the club. Kinda limits my training options. If I go private it costs so darn much its hard to keep going in that also.So basically what I have been doing is getting training when and where I can


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