# Tajgetosz and Staatsmacht at WUSV2013



## Stefan Schaub

2 dogs out of breeders from this forum on the WUSV 2013.

like i say all time!! if you know what you do you will have success!!!!!!


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## Melissa Leistikow

That's awesome!


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## Bob Scott

I think that's a nice tribute to the WDF forum that such high level competitors are here. Both here and abroad!


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## Gus Pineda

what dogs/countries? 

hey Stefan, time to update the Staatsmacht web site!


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## Ben Thompson

Stefan Schaub said:


> 2 dogs out of breeders from this forum on the WUSV 2013.
> 
> like i say all time!! if you know what you do you will have success!!!!!!


 Glad to see there are people who know how to train and breed good dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano

Ben Thompson said:


> Glad to see there are people who know how to train and breed good dogs.



There are lots of people who know how to train and breed dogs (all sorts of different breeds) Just not many have time or interest for lists and forums


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> There are lots of people who know how to train and breed dogs (all sorts of different breeds) Just not many have time or interest for lists and forums


yes you are right


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## Gillian Schuler

Thomas Barriano said:


> There are lots of people who know how to train and breed dogs (all sorts of different breeds) Just not many have time or interest for lists and forums


I think there are far more people out there who know how to train and breed dogs than on any forum.

This doesn't mean that the forum is not interesting. It is. It gives working dog handlers an idea of what is going on in the world of dog sports.

It is, however, no substitute for training on the field.

I would never trust the work of a video of a sporting dog unless it was a video of a trial, national or 
international. Videos can be presented as the handler intended them to be - perfect.


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## Vinnie Norberg

Gus Manda said:


> what dogs/countries?


Juha Kiminki with Sibelius von der Staatsmacht for Finland
and
Gabor Szilasi with Griff von Tajgetosz for Hungary

Good job guys!


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## Tiago Fontes

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think there are far more people out there who know how to train and breed dogs than on any forum.
> 
> This doesn't mean that the forum is not interesting. It is. It gives working dog handlers an idea of what is going on in the world of dog sports.
> 
> It is, however, no substitute for training on the field.
> 
> I would never trust the work of a video of a sporting dog unless it was a video of a trial, national or
> international. Videos can be presented as the handler intended them to be - perfect.


 
But forums DO help with marketing and self promotion, Gillian...lol

Wouldn't you agree? 


Regards


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## Gillian Schuler

Tiago Fontes said:


> But forums DO help with marketing and self promotion, Gillian...lol
> 
> Wouldn't you agree?
> 
> 
> Regards


Certainly Tiago!!


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## Tiago Fontes

Great minds think alike!


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## Vinnie Norberg

Sometimes a forum can do more harm than good in the marketing area. 

I have a few friends who are breeders and have been members of this and many others for many years who tell me very rarely do they sell a puppy to a forum member. That in fact they receive very few inquiries from forum members. For these breeders, sales come more from word of mouth and happy costumers who recommend them and also return to them. That's their best marketing.

These 2 breeders, Tajgetosz and Staatsmacht, don't need promotions or marketing from this or any forum. Their waiting lists of puppy buyers are longer than anyone's arms around here. 

Regards.


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## Tiago Fontes

Vinnie Norberg said:


> Sometimes a forum can do more harm than good in the marketing area.
> 
> I have a few friends who are breeders and have been members of this and many others for many years who tell me very rarely do they sell a puppy to a forum member.
> 
> These 2 breeders, Tajgetosz and Staatsmacht, don't need promotions or marketing from this or any forum. Their waiting lists of puppy buyers are longer than anyone's arms around here.
> 
> Regards.


 
Right on!


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## Thomas Barriano

Tiago Fontes said:


> But forums DO help with marketing and self promotion, Gillian...lol
> 
> Wouldn't you agree?
> 
> 
> Regards


Everyone should agree with that


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## Thomas Barriano

Vinnie Norberg said:


> Sometimes a forum can do more harm than good in the marketing area.
> 
> I have a few friends who are breeders and have been members of this and many others for many years who tell me very rarely do they sell a puppy to a forum member. That in fact they receive very few inquiries from forum members. For these breeders, sales come more from word of mouth and happy costumers who recommend them and also return to them. That's their best marketing.
> 
> These 2 breeders, Tajgetosz and Staatsmacht, don't need promotions or marketing from this or any forum. Their waiting lists of puppy buyers are longer than anyone's arms around here.
> 
> Regards.



Vinnie,

"I don't need to market my dogs" and "I have a waiting list longer then my arm" is just another more sophisticated marketing scheme to create demand and increase puppy prices ;-)


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## Tiago Fontes

Thomas Barriano said:


> Vinnie,
> 
> "I don't need to market my dogs" and "I have a waiting list longer then my arm" is just another more sophisticated marketing scheme to create demand and increase puppy prices ;-)


Truth be told, it was Vinnie who said these breeder's puppy waiting list was longer than anyone's arm around here. <O</O
<O</O

Not sure where he got members arm lengths or the puppy list for either breeder, but if he says so, it must be true. Right? Also not quite sure where he got the need to speak on behalf of the breeders either... 
<O</O
Regardless, I would like to ask Vinnie what he perceives this statement as:


"2 dogs out of breeders from this forum on the WUSV 2013.
like i say all time!! if you know what you do you will have success!!!!!!" 

<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


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## Vinnie Norberg

Tiago Fontes said:


> Truth be told, it was Vinnie who said these breeder's puppy waiting list was longer than anyone's arm around here. <O</O
> <O</O
> 
> Not sure where he got members arm lengths or the puppy list for either breeder, but if he says so, it must be true. Right? Also not quite sure where he got the need to speak on behalf of the breeders either...
> <O</O
> Regardless, I would like to ask Vinnie what he perceives this statement as:
> 
> 
> "2 dogs out of breeders from this forum on the WUSV 2013.
> like i say all time!! if you know what you do you will have success!!!!!!"
> 
> <!-- google_ad_section_end -->


Vinnie is a SHE. 

Seriously? The arms length comment is a figure of speech just like saying it's a "mile long", you're not really that dense are you? And finding out how long a breeder's waiting list is is very easy - pick up a telephone and ask. 

Also, I'm not really speaking on behalf of these 2 breeders or any others for that matter. I think they are capable of doing this all by themselves.  It's a forum and we all make observations. I know a few breeders that I consider very good and they do not need this or any forum to market their dogs. They market through word of mouth spread by happy customers (as I said above).

The last part - I perceive that statement as comment to all good breeding practices. More something for us all to learn from, not a marketing statement.


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## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> Truth be told, it was Vinnie who said these breeder's puppy waiting list was longer than anyone's arm around here. <O</O
> <O</O
> 
> Not sure where he got members arm lengths or the puppy list for either breeder, but if he says so, it must be true. Right? Also not quite sure where he got the need to speak on behalf of the breeders either...
> <O</O
> Regardless, I would like to ask Vinnie what he perceives this statement as:
> 
> 
> "2 dogs out of breeders from this forum on the WUSV 2013.
> like i say all time!! if you know what you do you will have success!!!!!!"
> 
> <!-- google_ad_section_end -->


for sure no one must talk for me, but i think it is funny how people try to make things bad!do you think i must proof something,type my kennel name in youtube or google and you find enough.

again working dog forum = dogs who work=dogs who have go to qualification trials to qualify to a big event.that means they have prove something.do not comment on it if you not like it.

but that is this forum!!!people who can proof there success and knowledge are not really liked, better is bring some stupid treads up and lets argue about if the dog is a dog or maybe a cat in dog coat.


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## Tiago Fontes

Vinnie Norberg said:


> Vinnie is a SHE.
> 
> Seriously? The arms length comment is a figure of speech just like saying it's a "mile long", you're not really that dense are you? And finding out how long a breeder's waiting list is is very easy - pick up a telephone and ask.
> 
> Also, I'm not really speaking on behalf of these 2 breeders or any others for that matter. I think they are capable of doing this all by themselves.  It's a forum and we all make observations. I know a few breeders that I consider very good and they do not need this or any forum to market their dogs. They market through word of mouth spread by happy customers (as I said above).
> 
> The last part - I perceive that statement as comment to all good breeding practices. More something for us all to learn from, not a marketing statement.


It's called sarcasm...


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> for sure no one must talk for me, but i think it is funny how people try to make things bad!do you think i must proof something,type my kennel name in youtube or google and you find enough.
> 
> again working dog forum = dogs who work=dogs who have go to qualification trials to qualify to a big event.that means they have prove something.do not comment on it if you not like it.
> 
> but that is this forum!!!people who can proof there success and knowledge are not really liked, better is bring some stupid treads up and lets argue about if the dog is a dog or maybe a cat in dog coat.


Ok dude.


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## Ben Thompson

Thomas Barriano said:


> There are lots of people who know how to train and breed dogs (all sorts of different breeds) Just not many have time or interest for lists and forums


I think forums have helped me more then harmed....some dog trainers work hard to make a living at dogs and they don't want someone challenging their advice online.


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## Sue DiCero

Stefan Schaub -

Thank you very much and congrats to you, as well!


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## Britney Pelletier

Gillian Schuler said:


> I would never trust the work of a video of a sporting dog unless it was a video of a trial, national or
> international. Videos can be presented as the handler intended them to be - perfect.


That is interesting, Gillian, as I would MUCH rather see videos of a dog in training.. where different types of pressure can be put on the dog, you can really see the dog's strengths and weaknesses tested, etc..

To me, a video of a trial is just that.. a video of a trial. Only so much information you can gain about a dog from that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm glad for the marketing, promotion, whatever label you want to put on it. It lets you know who and what's out there. You still have to do your research though. Its not that difficult to separate the substance from the fluff. I focus on what is said, not how its said.

T


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## Marcel Winter

Stefan Schaub said:


> 2 dogs out of breeders from this forum on the WUSV 2013.
> 
> like i say all time!! if you know what you do you will have success!!!!!!



Great job Stefan good luck !!


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## Gillian Schuler

Britney Pelletier said:


> That is interesting, Gillian, as I would MUCH rather see videos of a dog in training.. where different types of pressure can be put on the dog, you can really see the dog's strengths and weaknesses tested, etc..
> 
> To me, a video of a trial is just that.. a video of a trial. Only so much information you can gain about a dog from that.


How do you perceive that the training video wasn't videod 30-40 times over until the "perfect" video could be shown. You can take a "soft" helper unknown to anyone and video the dog's work.

I enjoy training videos, too. But they can be "set up" to look good. A trial video, plus the judge's commentary, is far more worth in my mind.


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## Thomas Barriano

Breeders provide a blank canvas. The trainers are the ones that create a masterpiece or waste the material :-(


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## Ben Thompson

Thomas Barriano said:


> Breeders provide a blank canvas. The trainers are the ones that create a masterpiece or waste the material :-(


 If dogs are just blank canvas why are some breeders charging 3500 USD for one puppy? Why are so many people extremely selective about what kennels they will buy a puppy from?


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## Thomas Barriano

Ben Thompson said:


> If dogs are just blank canvas why are some breeders charging 3500 USD for one puppy? Why are so many people extremely selective about what kennels they will buy a puppy from?


Because some people will pay $3500 for one puppy.
If Picasso doodles on a napkin it's still art. It's just not the same as a portrait on high quality canvas. Some breeders breed a better quality starting point for the trainer/artist. Put a puppy from what you consider the best kennel in the World in the hands of a mediocre trainer and the dog will never be on the podium. Put a mediocre dog in the hands of a great trainer and the podium is possible.


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## Mark Sheplak

Yet another WUSV victory from the line of Tom van't Leefdaalhof. He has to be one of the best if not the best producers over the past dozen years in terms of victories in major events or at least the WUSV. 

Stefan, what is your opinion of him? I noticed that you have not bred to any of his sons or grand sons. I figure that there has to be a good reason that you have chosen to exclude him from your kennel's blood line.


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> Yet another WUSV victory from the line of Tom van't Leefdaalhof. He has to be one of the best if not the best producers over the past dozen years in terms of victories in major events or at least the WUSV.
> 
> Stefan, what is your opinion of him? I noticed that you have not bred to any of his sons or grand sons. I figure that there has to be a good reason that you have chosen to exclude him from your kennel's blood line.


i did a mistake not to use Elute Mohnwiese. now it is too late.


My dog on the wusv have not pass, to bad but that is live.


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> i did a mistake not to use Elute Mohnwiese. now it is too late.
> 
> 
> My dog on the wusv have not pass, to bad but that is live.


Fair enough. Any thoughts on breeding to Como or you don't like him coming through Eros. What about Hank? There is a Tom son that is in Florida, Dax v. Brabantsbloed, but you might not be excited about the dam's line. 

Saw that, but that is part of the sport. The tracking scores seemed to be brutal for many.


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> Fair enough. Any thoughts on breeding to Como or you don't like him coming through Eros. What about Hank? There is a Tom son that is in Florida, Dax v. Brabantsbloed, but you might not be excited about the dam's line.
> 
> Saw that, but that is part of the sport. The tracking scores seemed to be brutal for many.


Como is not in my opinion good enough for breeding. Perfect trained dog!! Have seen him in geanu on the wusv, he was in bite work bad bad!! Will se what comes up in the next months. Would like a elute son with a good mother.


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> Como is not in my opinion good enough for breeding. Perfect trained dog!! Have seen him in geanu on the wusv, he was in bite work bad bad!! Will se what comes up in the next months. Would like a elute son with a good mother.


I believe that you are not alone in that opinion. 

What is your opinion of Hank? Obviously excellent dog for the podium, but do you think that he is good for breeding? Huber is certainly an all world trainer. He is also working with a Hank son, Basko vom Haus Pixner, so I assume that he sees something in this dog that is good given his experience.


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> Como is not in my opinion good enough for breeding. Perfect trained dog!! Have seen him in geanu on the wusv, he was in bite work bad bad!! Will se what comes up in the next months. Would like a elute son with a good mother.


I was wondering what exactly you didn't like about his bite work?


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> I was wondering what exactly you didn't like about his bite work?


he was weak, not active and had luck that lance liked Ronny.


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> I believe that you are not alone in that opinion.
> 
> What is your opinion of Hank? Obviously excellent dog for the podium, but do you think that he is good for breeding? Huber is certainly an all world trainer. He is also working with a Hank son, Basko vom Haus Pixner, so I assume that he sees something in this dog that is good given his experience.


if i compare Hank with Quardes last year on the BSP, both 98 in protection, Hank technical perfect but Quardes showes the speed and fight.why should i use a dog less than Quardes??


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> if i compare Hank with Quardes last year on the BSP, both 98 in protection, Hank technical perfect but Quardes showes the speed and fight.why should i use a dog less than Quardes??


Fair enough. So you view Quardes as a superior dog to Hank? 

What does Hank lack? Why haven't the BSP and WUSV judges been able to see this weakness? I guess that when a dog is continually successful on multiple venues in multiple countries, one would think that the weakness of the dog would eventually be detected. 

I guess that if both dogs were equal, genetic diversity (unless you don't like the bloodlines) + Tom's line would be a reason to breed.


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## rob lewis

Stefan, I LOVE your new website!!!!!!!


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## Marcel Winter

Hope Stefan don,t go breeding pointdogs with less agression and fight.

Keep on te good work Stefan.


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## Thomas Barriano

Come on guys. The back to back WUSV winner isn't good enough to breed to and/or doesn't have enough aggression? Get back to me when you're bred or trained/handled a WUSV winner. Otherwise I'm chalking it up to what ever drugs you're taking and/or kennel blindness


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## Gus Pineda

rob lewis said:


> Stefan, I LOVE your new website!!!!!!!



Yes, it is nice. Hope it is easy to update, as frequent updates beats flashiness!


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> Fair enough. So you view Quardes as a superior dog to Hank?
> 
> What does Hank lack? Why haven't the BSP and WUSV judges been able to see this weakness? I guess that when a dog is continually successful on multiple venues in multiple countries, one would think that the weakness of the dog would eventually be detected.
> 
> I guess that if both dogs were equal, genetic diversity (unless you don't like the bloodlines) + Tom's line would be a reason to breed.


IPO is about Trainings Quality and than real Quality!!! the history have show more than ones that the winner is not the dog with the most power or willing.
How many names do you want?? best example Ginoginelli Karthago, winner 2011, world team member, perfect trained dog!!why does close to no one have use him??


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Come on guys. The back to back WUSV winner isn't good enough to breed to and/or doesn't have enough aggression? Get back to me when you're bred or trained/handled a WUSV winner. Otherwise I'm chalking it up to what ever drugs you're taking and/or kennel blindness


Explain me what he can do for the breed?? His Handler is since generations one of the top trainers,many times winner of the bsp and other big trials.

You can not breed points and you can not breed points special for IPO!!i do not know how much clue you have in breeding or how much success!! but tell me one winner from the last years, beside Asko Lutter and Ernst Weinbergblick,who had a big impact in breeding. Ipo sport is dominated from a handfull great trainers.

Some Example
Anosch Adelmannsfelder Land - no impact
Quaid Hegewiese-no impact
Attaque vom adelegg-no impact
Caro vom Moehrfelder Land-no impact
Falco vom Gülden Winkel-no impact
Bastin Koketal-no impact
Dax vom Baumberg-no impact

at the same time there have been dogs like Sid Haus Gremm,Nick, Tim Abfuhr, Yoschy, Half, Aly, Xato, Sid Haus Pixner, Bandit Oberhausener Kreuz,Karn Fegelhof,Elute Mohnwiese,Eliot Prevent, Olex de Valsory.never high placed but with big impact in breed.

Let me know if i am wrong.you make statements but you can not proof it.did you like his speed this year on the long way,for sure Hank is a "great dog" and he have show again that his handler is one of the best in the world.


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan,

Too much theory and opinions and politics and name dropping. If I was into breeding GSD's I'd breed to the winners of the big events. Not to any expert on the sidelines.


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## Mario Fernandez

If you want to sell puppies go with the flavor of the month. Their is truth to what Stefan is saying.

Yoschy for example in his alone BSP performance in 1994, scored a 52, didn't make it past the back transport. DQ for no out..the power he showed was something for the time...his owner Martina Mosdorf had three breeding already before she was able to put Yoschy back in his crate. Yoschy like him or not is/was a modern pillar for the GSD


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> IPO is about Trainings Quality and than real Quality!!! the history have show more than ones that the winner is not the dog with the most power or willing.
> How many names do you want?? best example Ginoginelli Karthago, winner 2011, world team member, perfect trained dog!!why does close to no one have use him??


Stefan,

I understand that a dog can win a big title and contribute nothing to the breed. History shows that.

As I asked before, what does Hank lack that makes your dog vastly superior to him? 

Has there been a 2x WUSV winner and a 1X BSP winner that should not be bred? It seems that more often than not, dogs that ***consistently*** win (or are at least standing on the top 3 podium or consistently over all V) the most coveted titles multiple times in multiple countries tend to contribute to the breed (Asko, Orry, Ernst, Tom, Javir, etc.). 

As far as being used as a stud, it seems that many folks in Germany think that Hank is worth breeding to in looking at the number of offspring listed on working dog EU.

You state "training quality" and "real quality". Do you think that you are better suited to evaluate that than Helmut Huber?


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## Erik Berg

Ängsbackens rosso comes to my mind as a winner that also was used in breedings, not very much but I guess that is because he was not located in germany. One of his sons in this years WUSV below, this dog brother,pascal, had have about 100 offspring now and seems to produce nice, very good HD/ED-results as rosso also had in his offspring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwMSsQhkz5o


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> Stefan,
> 
> I understand that a dog can win a big title and contribute nothing to the breed. History shows that.
> 
> As I asked before, what does Hank lack that makes your dog vastly superior to him?
> 
> Has there been a 2x WUSV winner and a 1X BSP winner that should not be bred? It seems that more often than not, dogs that ***consistently*** win (or are at least standing on the top 3 podium or consistently over all V) the most coveted titles multiple times in multiple countries tend to contribute to the breed (Asko, Orry, Ernst, Tom, Javir, etc.).
> 
> As far as being used as a stud, it seems that many folks in Germany think that Hank is worth breeding to in looking at the number of offspring listed on working dog EU.
> 
> You state "training quality" and "real quality". Do you think that you are better suited to evaluate that than Helmut Huber?


go on hubers website and watch his son from Hank, would i give him food for one day. for sure not!!!maybe he will win one day the bps.

How do i know if he can evaluate dogs better!best he starts to breed and produce some dogs that take a inpact in breeding.than we know??

Do you think Mario Andretti can build his own race car?or does he have people who do that for him.

Hank does not have the speed,the behavior in the fight what i like, i do not like his behavior in obedience, i do not like his behavior before he goes on the field.

i have watch him on the bps 2010,did not like him.sorry, maybe i say in ten years i was wrong not to breed with him!!


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## Stefan Schaub

Mario Fernandez said:


> If you want to sell puppies go with the flavor of the month. Their is truth to what Stefan is saying.
> 
> Yoschy for example in his alone BSP performance in 1994, scored a 52, didn't make it past the back transport. DQ for no out..the power he showed was something for the time...his owner Martina Mosdorf had three breeding already before she was able to put Yoschy back in his crate. Yoschy like him or not is/was a modern pillar for the GSD


Yoschy hit in every bite on the bsp and the important people notice this, they used him and the rest have follow,for luck!!!he have done a lot good for the breed.
Gotthilf von der Kine was winner, but the real winner was Yoschy, both with the same line n the dad site!!


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## Mario Fernandez

My friend tells me the story about Yoschy all the time. He went to that BSP to see Dino Vom Sylbacher Wald as he had a litter on the ground that was born prior to the BSP. Saw the litter...the dam was Haska vom Karthago...it was the A' litter of the von der lutter breeding... Told me he was glad to go to the BSP to see dogs like lewis, Crock, Chico, Champ, Yoschy..


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> go on hubers website and watch his son from Hank, would i give him food for one day. for sure not!!!maybe he will win one day the bps.
> 
> How do i know if he can evaluate dogs better!best he starts to breed and produce some dogs that take a inpact in breeding.than we know??
> 
> Do you think Mario Andretti can build his own race car?or does he have people who do that for him.
> 
> Hank does not have the speed,the behavior in the fight what i like, i do not like his behavior in obedience, i do not like his behavior before he goes on the field.
> 
> i have watch him on the bps 2010,did not like him.sorry, maybe i say in ten years i was wrong not to breed with him!!


Cars are a poor analogy as engineering is a deterministic field with absolute measures of performance, not so in breeding dogs. I will go with it as I think I know what you trying to get at. 

I believe that Mario Andretti can evaluate the performance of the car better than the mechanics that assemble it. I use the word assembly because that is closer to what you do as a breeder. You don't design anything. You don't engineer anything. It is essentially assembly via trial and error. 

In this case, guys like Huber, van den Berghe, and Raiser have a lot more experience than you do. They have trained multiple dogs to the highest levels. I imagine that it would be an honor for one of them to want one of your dogs. 

Really, it all comes down to your opinion, which you are entitled to. Time will tell whether or not you are correct.


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## Christopher Jones

Gillian Schuler said:


> I would never trust the work of a video of a sporting dog *unless it was a video of a trial, national or *
> *international*. Videos can be presented as the handler intended them to be - perfect.


I would much, much rather watch and see videos of the dog been trained to get the title rather than the trial video. I will see much more of the real dog in his training than I will at his trial.


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## Mark Sheplak

Christopher Jones said:


> I would much, much rather watch and see videos of the dog been trained to get the title rather than the trial video. I will see much more of the real dog in his training than I will at his trial.


I would agree if you got to see the whole picture (in person) and not just marketing snippets. Do you really think that a savvy breeder is going to provide you with a video that will make his/her dog look bad? Do you think that you will learn more about a dog working on his/her home field, with a familiar helper, etc, than you would with all of the distractions of a trial, unfamiliar helper, unfamiliar venue, nerves of the helper kicked up, perhaps long travel to get there, perhaps a dramatic change in climate, etc.?


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## rob lewis

Christopher Jones said:


> I would much, much rather watch and see videos of the dog been trained to get the title rather than the trial video. I will see much more of the real dog in his training than I will at his trial.


I agree that is why I also like Witz!!!


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## Christopher Jones

Britney Pelletier said:


> That is interesting, Gillian, as I would MUCH rather see videos of a dog in training.. where different types of pressure can be put on the dog, you can really see the dog's strengths and weaknesses tested, etc..
> 
> To me, a video of a trial is just that.. a video of a trial. Only so much information you can gain about a dog from that.


Opps just read someone wrote the same thing after I posted it and actually fully read the posts lol. Obviously im not Robertson Caruso here.


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## Christopher Jones

Mark Sheplak said:


> I would agree if you got to see the whole picture (in person) and not just marketing snippets. Do you really think that a savvy breeder is going to provide you with a video that will make his/her dog look bad? Do you think that you will learn more about a dog working on his/her home field, with a familiar helper, etc, than you would with all of the distractions of a trial, unfamiliar helper, unfamiliar venue, nerves of the helper kicked up, perhaps long travel to get there, perhaps a dramatic change in climate, etc.?


 
I am willing to back my ability to read dogs and see what going on when I watch a video. 
I am also just as interested in what the dog was like as a puppy till 12 months as I am what he is like as a fully trained adult. I am also just as interested in what his brothers and sisters are also like. I also speak to people whos word I trust if they know the dog.
A trial video is a long way down the pecking order.


----------



## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> go on hubers website and watch his son from Hank, would i give him food for one day. for sure not!!!maybe he will win one day the bps.


Let's be a little consistent here. One one hand you hold up one of Rudolf Pixner's dogs (Sid) as a dog that has had a large impact. You then watch a movie of another one of Rudolf's dogs (Basko) as a young pup and state that he isn't worth feeding? Did Pixner get lucky or does he know what he is talking about?

Sorry, but I am going to side with a breeder that you admit has had a "big impact in (sic) the breed" as well as one of the most successful handler/trainers alive today regarding whether or not Basko should be fed tonight.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> Let's be a little consistent here. One one hand you hold up one of Rudolf Pixner's dogs (Sid) as a dog that has had a large impact. You then watch a movie of another one of Rudolf's dogs (Basko) as a young pup and state that he isn't worth feeding? Did Pixner get lucky or does he know what he is talking about?
> 
> Sorry, but I am going to side with a breeder that you admit has had a "big impact in (sic) the breed" as well as one of the most successful handler/trainers alive today regarding whether or not Basko should be fed tonight.


For sure Haus Pixner is a great Kennel, does it mean every dog is great??maybe i am wrong but i would not feed him one day longer.this dog does not show any real drive to his toy,he throw his toy away and than the dog goes to it like a grandpa.not enough for me!!but that is only my opinion,so take it or do not take it.if you know better than me how a real dog have to look fine.start to breed and show.

Raiser have start his own breed!!!or he thinks he have start his own breed!!what does he use for dogs??does he have done anything better in breeding than he did during his sv time. Have you ever visit one of the evaluations from the rsv?what did you see there?
ask me and i tell you but maybe you want tell me a other story.


----------



## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> For sure Haus Pixner is a great Kennel, does it mean every dog is great??maybe i am wrong but i would not feed him one day longer.this dog does not show any real drive to his toy,he throw his toy away and than the dog goes to it like a grandpa.not enough for me!!but that is only my opinion,so take it or do not take it.if you know better than me how a real dog have to look fine.start to breed and show.
> 
> Raiser have start his own breed!!!or he thinks he have start his own breed!!what does he use for dogs??does he have done anything better in breeding than he did during his sv time. Have you ever visit one of the evaluations from the rsv?what did you see there?
> ask me and i tell you but maybe you want tell me a other story.


I am not in any way stating that my knowledge about dogs is superior to yours...it is not. I appreciate your passion to improve the breed and wish you the best. I am, however, pointing out that you are quite critical of other people's dogs who have had much more success than you have. 

Simply put, you had one dog in the WUSV and another dog who took 6th in the BSP which is a huge success as a breeder. Hank won his second consecutive WUSV to add to his BSP title. There is a slight difference in terms of achievement. I know, your dog is a real dog, and Hank is slow, you don't like Hank's behavior, etc. 

As I said regarding Basko, I am going to side with Pixner and Huber over you based on their resumes. Call me crazy, but I think that Huber and Pixner may actually know was a "real dog" looks like. You may be correct, but my money is on them given their success. 

If you think that you know more about GSDs than Helmut Raiser, there is not much that I can say.


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## Christopher Smith

Mark when it is all said and done there is one person in this world that knows more than everyone else about GSDs. Using your logic only that guy can have an opinion that is valid. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> I am not in any way stating that my knowledge about dogs is superior to yours...it is not. I appreciate your passion to improve the breed and wish you the best. I am, however, pointing out that you are quite critical of other people's dogs who have had much more success than you have.
> 
> Simply put, you had one dog in the WUSV and another dog who took 6th in the BSP which is a huge success as a breeder. Hank won his second consecutive WUSV to add to his BSP title. There is a slight difference in terms of achievement. I know, your dog is a real dog, and Hank is slow, you don't like Hank's behavior, etc.
> 
> As I said regarding Basko, I am going to side with Pixner and Huber over you based on their resumes. Call me crazy, but I think that Huber and Pixner may actually know was a "real dog" looks like. You may be correct, but my money is on them given their success.
> 
> If you think that you know more about GSDs than Helmut Raiser, there is not much that I can say.


It is not about winning a title, if you think that the dog who wins the title is the better producer belive that. i gave you before all ready examples that it is not this way.
Make your home work about my breed and find out what i have done in 12 years and what dog have done what.


Raiser is a success full trainer, is he a success full breeder? No, he is for sure a better trainer than i am and for sure he is not a better breeder than i am.

i do not know your knowledge about training or breeding, but you should read between the lines? why have the people around raiser not breed better dogs in the last 20 years, they did have all in their hand to make the breed better but they did not, i think his biggest issue is that he did not watch outside of his "opinion". ipo is not a breed survey,ipo is a sport. these points are not genetic.
Jogi is for sure the best trainer right now, would i breed with his dog because he trained him, no!!

and if you think i am critical with other dogs you should may visit me and see how critical i am with my own breed.how many males did i use out of my breed??? how many females did i use out of all my females, if you think you read a book and watch some movies,check the winner lists and than yo can breed a good dog than good luck.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Jones said:


> I am willing to back my ability to read dogs and see what going on when I watch a video.
> I am also just as interested in what the dog was like as a puppy till 12 months as I am what he is like as a fully trained adult. I am also just as interested in what his brothers and sisters are also like. I also speak to people whos word I trust if they know the dog.
> A trial video is a long way down the pecking order.


Agreed. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> and if you think i am critical with other dogs you should may visit me and see how critical i am with my own breed.how many males did i use out of my breed??? how many females did i use out of all my females, if you think you read a book and watch some movies,check the winner lists and than yo can breed a good dog than good luck.


Exactly. You don't even have to visit. Follow the paper trail. Its all out there to see. 

T


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## Christopher Jones

Stefan, I was wondering what you could tell me about a couple of dogs as far as working character and how they produce?
Uno and Metin Stadfeld and black jack von der teufelskehle?
Thanks if you have any info.


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## Gillian Schuler

Mark Sheplak said:


> Cars are a poor analogy as engineering is a deterministic field with absolute measures of performance, not so in breeding dogs. I will go with it as I think I know what you trying to get at.
> 
> I believe that Mario Andretti can evaluate the performance of the car better than the mechanics that assemble it. I use the word assembly because that is closer to what you do as a breeder. You don't design anything. You don't engineer anything. It is essentially assembly via trial and error.
> 
> In this case, guys like Huber, van den Berghe, and Raiser have a lot more experience than you do. They have trained multiple dogs to the highest levels. I imagine that it would be an honor for one of them to want one of your dogs.
> 
> Really, it all comes down to your opinion, which you are entitled to. Time will tell whether or not you are correct.


Helmut Huber is one of the best dog handlers in Germany and that for a long time.
Ronny van den Berge, I met, and was impressed with him.
Raiser, I have not met him but I think anyone who reads his website and follows his "career" can be sure he is a competent dog handler and more.


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## Thomas Barriano

What is the best proof of breeding (or training) if not winning the big events? Every breeder in the World thinks they breed the best example of the breed and can talk a blue streak about how "bad" their dogs are. Bottom line, it's all just their opinion. Show me your dogs trial scores at the big events or the trial scores of their progeny.


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## Sue DiCero

The issue with videos and camera shots - the location (and proximity of the photographer) and angle can impact the view/presentation.

Example. 
At the AWDF in Indy the other year, I was shooting photos, located one point between the 5th and 6th blind for a few dogs (trying different things) for the front half.

For one dog, the handler had someone positioned at the 4th blind to shoot the whole routine from there.

When the video was posted (the one taped from the 4th blind), everyone commented on the hard and full grips on the front half.

When I reviewed my photos, the grip was not full, etc....on any grips on the front half...


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## Dave Martin

Thomas Barriano said:


> What is the best proof of breeding (or training) if not winning the big events?


Producing a higher percentage of dogs that are capable of competing at those events, working in real life applications, and producing the same or better than themselves.



Thomas Barriano said:


> Every breeder in the World thinks they breed the best example of the breed and can talk a blue streak about how "bad" their dogs are. Bottom line, it's all just their opinion. Show me your dogs trial scores at the big events or the trial scores of their progeny.


You can't really believe that any dog that wins a big event is a producer. Or that he even has the ideal temperament for a working dog.

It seems as though you are only considering one half of the competition team in dogsport, and only using sport as a reliable test for working dogs.


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## rob lewis

Christopher Jones said:


> I would much, much rather watch and see videos of the dog been trained to get the title rather than the trial video. I will see much more of the real dog in his training than I will at his trial.





Dave Martin said:


> Producing a higher percentage of dogs that are capable of competing at those events, working in real life applications, and producing the same or better than themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't really believe that any dog that wins a big event is a producer. Or that he even has the ideal temperament for a working dog.
> 
> It seems as though you are only considering one half of the competition team in dogsport, and only using sport as a reliable test for working dogs.


I agree 100% with you Dave. What good are points if these dogs can not be used in real life work? Example of real life work Search and Rescue,Police Work,Explosive Detection,Guide Dog,Accelerant Detection,Herding,Cadaver Dog, and Family Protector.


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## Thomas Barriano

Dave Martin said:


> Producing a higher percentage of dogs that are capable of competing at those events, working in real life applications, and producing the same or better than themselves.
> 
> >agreed
> 
> 
> 
> You can't really believe that any dog that wins a big event is a producer. Or that he even has the ideal temperament for a working dog.
> 
> >it's a start. Not only win but even putting up decent scores
> >is something. There are lots of breeders who talk a good ball
> >game but either don't compete at all or have an excuse for why their dogs don't do well.
> 
> It seems as though you are only considering one half of the competition team in dogsport, and only using sport as a reliable test for working dogs.
> 
> >the trainer/handler is part of the equation but the best trainer
> >can't put a mediocre dog on the podium. However a bad/poor
> >trainer can keep a great dog off one.


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Jones said:


> I would much, much rather watch and see videos of the dog been trained to get the title rather than the trial video. I will see much more of the real dog in his training than I will at his trial.


How would you know how much of the real dog in his training you are seeing?

Videos are tantamount in a way to handlers' patter!


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## Stefan Schaub

No one have say here that Huber,Raiser, Ronny or Jogi or who ever is a bad Handler. It is about the quality of a dog and not about the Quality of the handler.
To make it easy-Eros Mohnwiese good dog and with Ronny WUSV winner, i was there and he deserved it!!!,same year his brother Elute was on the BSP,i worked him there, great dog,great drive and great willing to go into the Helper but not placed in the top. who have make more studs?and why?and who was the better producer. Eros because he produced a winner "Como"(again Ronny) or Elute who have produced consistently dogs with real work ability and dogs who have get used in many other breedings?

If we talk about Raiser,for sure a person who have done a lot for the sport!!!but how many dogs have he handled that have make a inpact in breeding?search it up and let me know.

If we talk about he best trainers than we should all use Jogis dog or not??right now the best one,his club have had more success than no one else in the last years in GSD. but only one dog have make a inpact in breeding!!!Janko Vorkehrswald, he handelt him on the LG FCI with i think 84 in obedience and 85 in protection, but this dog had more power and work ability than his Moses,Kuba and Ginoginelli.


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> What is the best proof of breeding (or training) if not winning the big events? Every breeder in the World thinks they breed the best example of the breed and can talk a blue streak about how "bad" their dogs are. Bottom line, it's all just their opinion. Show me your dogs trial scores at the big events or the trial scores of their progeny.


You are absolutley right!!but than these people should asked them self why no one else want make breedings with there dogs, or why no one else cares about there dogs.


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## Erik Berg

Does it matter if the dog place on the podium as long as it´s a really good dog and for breeding everything else are ok, or do people mean you can´t place on the podium with a really good dog? Of course winning BSP or any other big event doesn´t mean the dog is the best producer, but as already stated some podium dogs have been breed a lot, and I suppose also stefan would use quardes if a few points more had made him place on the podium. Then again it raises the question if winning today is more about finding the type of dogs that are suited for winning, and not necessarily the best dogs for the work outside sport.


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## Gus Pineda

I would prefer a dog out of a stud that works and who has already produced working dogs, over a dog who is the IPO superstar. The dog, in my mind, has to earn it's keep, otherwise there is no point to having a "working breed".


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> If we talk about Raiser,for sure a person who have done a lot for the sport!!!but how many dogs have he handled that have make a inpact in breeding?search it up and let me know.


To answer your question...Sagus sired 16 BSP participants. Given the limited number of times that he was bred, that is a pretty good percentage. I suppose that you would starve him too. Don't have time to look beyond that. 

Helmut Raiser was the breed warden for the SV. He founded the RSV 2000 and has evaluated probably over 10,000 dogs in his life as a helper / seminar speaker. Look at his resume in terms of achievements as a trainer, as a teacher, as an author of a book on every IPO competitors shelf, as a legend in the field... 

Are you saying that you know more about evaluating GSDs than Raiser? Just a simple yes or no will do.


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> You are absolutley right!!but than these people should asked them self why no one else want make breedings with there dogs, or why no one else cares about there dogs.


There are a lot of reasons why some studs are used more then others. Where the dog is located. What the stud fee is. Some breeders want to keep their bloodlines pure and don't breed to outside females. A Stud in Germany will get more breedings then one in the US just because there are more females and they're closer together.


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## Christopher Jones

Gillian Schuler said:


> How would you know how much of the real dog in his training you are seeing?
> 
> Videos are tantamount in a way to handlers' patter!


You look at his compliance levels, how he handles any corrections, what pressure he feels from the control work. Is he trained on a harness vs flat leather vs ecollar, is the decoy hard or soft on the dog?etc.


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## Christopher Jones

Christopher Jones said:


> Stefan, I was wondering what you could tell me about a couple of dogs as far as working character and how they produce?
> Uno and Metin Stadfeld and black jack von der teufelskehle?
> Thanks if you have any info.


Hi Stefan, did you see this question? Would be interested in your opinion on these dogs.
Thx


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> To answer your question...Sagus sired 16 BSP participants. Given the limited number of times that he was bred, that is a pretty good percentage. I suppose that you would starve him too. Don't have time to look beyond that.
> 
> Helmut Raiser was the breed warden for the SV. He founded the RSV 2000 and has evaluated probably over 10,000 dogs in his life as a helper / seminar speaker. Look at his resume in terms of achievements as a trainer, as a teacher, as an author of a book on every IPO competitors shelf, as a legend in the field...
> 
> Are you saying that you know more about evaluating GSDs than Raiser? Just a simple yes or no will do.


i know helmut and sagus is already a 100 years dead,dogs and training at this time was different, only the good dogs have survived that training.yes he was breed warden for a short time and what?? and why was he breed warden??it was a protest from one side of the show people.in that moment he was not smart enough to keep his position and try to make it better.

yes he have formed the rsv 2000,have you ever visit the rsv or one of there events.you for sure not, i was there, did i like what i have seen?no!!why? because it does not make sense to proof trained behavior and say than the dog is that and that.but you can not talk about it because you do not know it because you never have see it.


and yes for sure i know better to evaluate a dog better,it shows on my breeding success in only 12 years. you can say what you want but you know nothing,all what you can do is sitting on your keyboard,search some stuff up and make some comments with out proof.
if you want make the breed better you must eliminate the bad and weak dogs and do not give him a lower score in a breed survey and let them still in your breeding program.you think i AM WRONG. maybe in your small world, you know the big dogs only from the screen and not in person, too sad that you can not proof any thing, wish we could compare our success but oh i forgot now one cares in the dog world about you!!why?

ask your self


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## Stefan Schaub

Christopher Jones said:


> Hi Stefan, did you see this question? Would be interested in your opinion on these dogs.
> Thx


Uno was great,used him,did not like Metin(same combination),the breeder sold Metin because he thought the same.do not know Black Jack, knows only his full brother who is owned by Joerg.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Mark Sheplak said:


> To answer your question...Sagus sired 16 BSP participants. Given the limited number of times that he was bred, that is a pretty good percentage. I suppose that you would starve him too. Don't have time to look beyond that.
> 
> Helmut Raiser was the breed warden for the SV. He founded the RSV 2000 and has evaluated probably over 10,000 dogs in his life as a helper / seminar speaker. Look at his resume in terms of achievements as a trainer, as a teacher, as an author of a book on every IPO competitors shelf, as a legend in the field...
> 
> Are you saying that you know more about evaluating GSDs than Raiser? Just a simple yes or no will do.


I havent seen Stefan put down Helmut, infact he rated Helmut as a better trainer than he is. But the question he raised is wether Helmut was a sucessful breeder. Thats easy to quantify by just looking at dogs he has bred. 
There are many super dogs that dont produce offspring as good as you would hope. Its a reality and you just dont take it personally.


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## Christopher Jones

Stefan Schaub said:


> Uno was great,used him,did not like Metin(same combination),the breeder sold Metin because he thought the same.do not know Black Jack, knows only his full brother who is owned by Joerg.


Cool. Thanks for the info. They are quite nice looking dogs (well to my untrained eye)


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> ...sagus is already a 100 years dead...
> 
> ...and yes for sure i know better to evaluate a dog better (than Raiser), it shows on my breeding success in only 12 years.


You are the one that said Raiser hasn't handled a dog who had impact, not me. Don' move the target now. I didn't need to do any searching, just went with the first dog that came to mind. Has the sum total of all of your dogs had as much impact as just Sagus? Yes/No? 

Look, I actually enjoy reading your posts because there is often valuable content as you worked many of the dogs that you speak of. As someone who does IPO as a hobby, I like to read posts from people with more knowledge than myself. I don't think that you are wrong about eliminating bad and weak dogs. I actually respect what you do and admire your passion for improving the breed. 

I just think that it is misguided to go on a web board and state that your ability to evaluate dogs is superior to Helmut Raiser who is universally recognized by the world as being an expert on the breed and who has vastly more experience and impact than you do. Humility is a virtue.


----------



## jamie lind

Mark Sheplak said:


> I just think that it is misguided to go on a web board and state that your ability to evaluate dogs is superior to Helmut Raiser who is universally recognized by the world as being an expert on the breed and who has vastly more experience and impact than you do. Humility is a virtue.


You asked him. Do you think a surgeon that thinks he is the second best is any good? Dont hang around many successful people, do you?


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## Mark Sheplak

jamie lind said:


> You asked him. Do you think a surgeon that thinks he is the second best is any good? Dont hang around many successful people, do you?


I actually know quite a few gifted surgeons who are excellent at what they do. They are some of the most humble people that I know. I would be more concerned about a surgeon who was arrogant and could not acknowledge the skills of those more gifted than him.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> I just think that it is misguided to go on a web board and state that your ability to evaluate dogs is superior to Helmut Raiser who is universally recognized by the world as being an expert on the breed and who has vastly more experience and impact than you do. Humility is a virtue.


I can't understand why you think Raiser is the god of GSDs because of what others think of him. Just on a theoretical level, just because he has followers, doesn't make him the unquestionable expert. I've had my own questions about Raiser and thank goodness that there are people who are in GSDs who don't have Malinois envy and can see with uncompromising selection what is already obtainable in the gene pool. Somehow you have decided that Raiser is god and everyone should recognize that and fall to one knee. Hero worship can be blinding.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> I actually know quite a few gifted surgeons who are excellent at what they do. They are some of the most humble people that I know. I would be more concerned about a surgeon who was arrogant and could not acknowledge the skills of those more gifted than him.


Who says they are more gifted?

T


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## Ang Cangiano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Who says they are more gifted?
> 
> T


Their insurance companies? 

Ang


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I can't understand why you think Raiser is the god of GSDs because of what others think of him. Just on a theoretical level, just because he has followers, doesn't make him the unquestionable expert. I've had my own questions about Raiser and thank goodness that there are people who are in GSDs who don't have Malinois envy and can see with uncompromising selection what is already obtainable in the gene pool. Somehow you have decided that Raiser is god and everyone should recognize that and fall to one knee. Hero worship can be blinding.
> 
> T


"Hero Worship can be blinding" Especially if you choose to "worship" someone with more attitude and arrogance then actual accomplishment. I'll stick with the majority of the working dog world and save my admiration and respect for someone that's actually done something to deserve it. Some people don't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as 
Dr Raiser.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Jones said:


> You look at his compliance levels, how he handles any corrections, what pressure he feels from the control work. Is he trained on a harness vs flat leather vs ecollar, is the decoy hard or soft on the dog?etc.


It will still have an element of doubt. Someone can take a weak helper to make the dog look stronger. People can put any collar they like on the dog - doesn't mean he normally wears it.

I stick by the fact that videos cannot give a true picture of the dog unless shown by someone who doesn't just wish to impress.


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## Erik Berg

The majority of breeders are neither intressted to win WUSV or for that matter intressted in IPO only, at least if they live outside germany. It would be very few GSDs breed if only top competiors in IPO is the only ones who can judge what a good breeeding GSD for their breedinggoal should be like. 

I suppose raiser and RSV 2000 doesn´t mean much either, unless they became so big that the majority of GSDs in germany go thru their breedingdemands, and if what they do are an improvement of the breeding demands of SV. Then I suppose it positive, but in the end it´s up to the breeder to see what dogs are good, regardless of what points and tests the dog has gone thru on paper.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> I actually know quite a few gifted surgeons who are excellent at what they do. They are some of the most humble people that I know. I would be more concerned about a surgeon who was arrogant and could not acknowledge the skills of those more gifted than him.


Tell me how many success full breeder have left the sv to go with Raiser???
if he would know how to evaluate a real dog for breeding and can show how to make it better than there must be dogs or breeder that show this, right??he was more than 30 years in sv and did not produce one dog(as a breeder). why,he knows how to do it,there was no regulation from sv, you get close to every dog to the breed survey.why must he make his own organization if every one follows him and believe in his word.every four years there is a new vote in sv..............................

people did not believe in him anymore after he have let a dog like Falco Gueldenwinkel make studs, was it for money??for sure not, he is a dentist.why than?because he thought this is a good dog for breeding,every one else have see that this dog was only trained perfect for the trials,how many people used him?


he is a great trainer but his opinion about a good gsd for breeding is far away from that what we need.why should my dog on a breed survey or Talentsichtung go with someone else, why should my dog hold the sleve in sit position or down position and why should my dog answer on a wip.is that something what belongs in a evaluation.no that is trained behavior.

and for sure he have follower and maybe i was also one of him for a time,but what he does make no sense. you can not make the breed better the way he try to do it.to many weak dogs with weakness in different areas have get the right to breed in "HIS ORGANISATION".why??because he want show that he is the man!!!!and he want show that more people come to him.and yes he is the man as a handler not as a breeder and he can speak and for sure he can show how to work a dog.maybe he did not have the connection to the real working dog world(mil./police) or maybe he did not care about this site of the dog world

Sagus,Gildo, Neck,Boris,Flori these dogs are from a different time of training they do not matter today anymore.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> "Hero Worship can be blinding" Especially if you choose to "worship" someone with more attitude and arrogance then actual accomplishment. I'll stick with the majority of the working dog world and save my admiration and respect for someone that's actually done something to deserve it. Some people don't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as
> Dr Raiser.


we talk about raiser as a breeder not handler!!did you find something? i did not find something!!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> we talk about raiser as a breeder not handler!!did you find something? i did not find something!!



Does one have to be a breeder to influence the breed?
I think as a former SV breed warden and founder of RSV2000 that Doctor Raiser has had more influence on working GSD's then any single breeder.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Does one have to be a breeder to influence the breed?
> I think as a former SV breed warden and founder of RSV2000 that Doctor Raiser has had more influence on working GSD's then any single breeder.


answer my question!!!and what did he do as sv breed ward??

again you make things up with out any clue.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Stefan Schaub said:


> answer my question!!!and what did he do as sv breed ward??
> 
> again you make things up with out any clue.


the closest follower is Zabel (kennel schafbachmuehle),what did she breed after Pike????she have fight for Raiser than no one else,should she not have than the best dogs,he would advise her or not and she listen to him!!!!!

If you can not proof things why try to argue with me.and again only for you !!!we talk about Raiser as a breeder not Handler/Trainer


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## Mark Sheplak

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I can't understand why you think Raiser is the god of GSDs because of what others think of him. Just on a theoretical level, just because he has followers, doesn't make him the unquestionable expert. I've had my own questions about Raiser and thank goodness that there are people who are in GSDs who don't have Malinois envy and can see with uncompromising selection what is already obtainable in the gene pool. Somehow you have decided that Raiser is god and everyone should recognize that and fall to one knee. Hero worship can be blinding.
> 
> T


Just simply stating that based on achievements that he has done more for the breed than Stefan has to date. I don't see how anyone can come to another conclusion based on an objective look at accomplishments. 

Not hero worship. Not declaring someone a god. Not saying that he is unquestionable. I am just making a simple statement of A > B.


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> the closest follower is Zabel (kennel schafbachmuehle),what did she breed after Pike????she have fight for Raiser than no one else,should she not have than the best dogs,he would advise her or not and she listen to him!!!!!
> 
> If you can not proof things why try to argue with me.and again only for you !!!we talk about Raiser as a breeder not Handler/Trainer


What have you done? How many of your dogs qualified for the 
BSP or WUSV and how did they place? If scores and trials aren't the indicator of how good a kennel is , then what ? Do you have multiple dogs working for the Military or Police Departments? I'm talking about Raiser as a MAJOR influence on the breed. You'd like to limit the discussion to breeders only but this topic started as who made into the WUSV 2013.
Your ego overshadows your accomplishments.

We went through a long discussion on the disarm and after UScA (Ann Marie Chaffin video) and the SV (handlers meeting at the WUSV) both indicated that any turning of the decoy was faulty. You still insist that you're correct?


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> What have you done? How many of your dogs qualified for the
> BSP or WUSV and how did they place? If scores and trials aren't the indicator of how good a kennel is , then what ? Do you have multiple dogs working for the Military or Police Departments? I'm talking about Raiser as a MAJOR influence on the breed. You'd like to limit the discussion to breeders only but this topic started as who made into the WUSV 2013.
> Your ego overshadows your accomplishments.
> 
> We went through a long discussion on the disarm and after UScA (Ann Marie Chaffin video) and the SV (handlers meeting at the WUSV) both indicated that any turning of the decoy was faulty. You still insist that you're correct?


why can you not answer my question??
go on my homepage you find how many dogs have qualified and the rest. 12 years breed, over 300 studs from males out of my breed in kennels for ring,knpv,ipo and breeding programms of different military breeding programs, multi females get used in well known kennels,ring,knpv and ipo.not enough in only 12 years.
what did you the last 12 years?? 6782 posts and no proof of what you say.

our long discussion!!!why did they tell on the team captain meeting how they want have it done???because the rules where so clear,right!!why did they not tell them how to run the blinds:-\"


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> What have you done? How many of your dogs qualified for the
> BSP or WUSV and how did they place? If scores and trials aren't the indicator of how good a kennel is , then what ? Do you have multiple dogs working for the Military or Police Departments? I'm talking about Raiser as a MAJOR influence on the breed. You'd like to limit the discussion to breeders only but this topic started as who made into the WUSV 2013.
> Your ego overshadows your accomplishments.
> 
> We went through a long discussion on the disarm and after UScA (Ann Marie Chaffin video) and the SV (handlers meeting at the WUSV) both indicated that any turning of the decoy was faulty. You still insist that you're correct?


and thank you that you make my influence bigger, because now they talk all ready about my side transport on the captain meeting at the WUSV.:-({|=
and next time they write the change of the rule and can write the "Schaub site transport" is not any more legal.:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> and thank you that you make my influence bigger, because now they talk all ready about my side transport on the captain meeting at the WUSV.:-({|=
> and next time they write the change of the rule and can write the "Schaub site transport" is not any more legal.:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:


You're not the only one doing the disarm incorrectly. So they're not going to call it the Schaub Disarm. It will only be known as one of the ways NOT to do it


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> our long discussion!!!why did they tell on the team captain meeting how they want have it done???because the rules where so clear,right!!why did they not tell them how to run the blinds:-\"


They don't tell anyone how to do anything. Only what ways are incorrect and faulty and lose points. I agree the rules are not clear, but I think the sport is too complicated for the rules to cover every possibility. That's why there are DOJ's and LRO's etc.


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> Sagus,Gildo, Neck,Boris,Flori these dogs are from a different time of training they do not matter today anymore.


Lots here, need to take it in pieces. You are talking in circles and forever moving the target. 

You stated that Raiser hadn't handled a dog that influenced the breed. I bring up Sagus, you say it doesn't matter. He sired 16 BSP competitors in a limited number of breedings. Do you have a sire who has equaled that type of influence or done better? 

Given your statement above, I guess that Askia doesn't matter either. She is contemporary to many of the dogs you mention above. You have mentioned more than once that Terror/Trojan are linebred on Askia. Why mention it if dogs like that don't matter today? I do notice that as you changed your website, you left out all of the information about how you went about forming your kennel from various lines. I guess that stuff not longer matters. 

Old dogs like this don't matter, but yet you state on your webpage, "He (Terror) has the characteristics of the old German Shepherd." Is that a good thing? Since you are in the business of selling dogs, I would think that you wouldn't mention it unless it was profitable. 

Don't Sagus, Gildo, Askia, etc. possess the "the characteristics of the old German Shepherd"? 

Wasn't the training different 20 years ago as well? I guess that Yoschy, Nick, etc. all also don't matter?

I thought that one of the goals of your breeding program was to produce GSDs with "the characteristics of the old German Shepherd", I guess not if "they do not matter today"


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> Lots here, need to take it in pieces. You are talking in circles and forever moving the target.
> 
> You stated that Raiser hadn't handled a dog that influenced the breed. I bring up Sagus, you say it doesn't matter. He sired 16 BSP competitors in a limited number of breedings. Do you have a sire who has equaled that type of influence or done better?
> 
> Given your statement above, I guess that Askia doesn't matter either. She is contemporary to many of the dogs you mention above. You have mentioned more than once that Terror/Trojan are linebred on Askia. Why mention it if dogs like that don't matter today? I do notice that as you changed your website, you left out all of the information about how you went about forming your kennel from various lines. I guess that stuff not longer matters.
> 
> Old dogs like this don't matter, but yet you state on your webpage, "He (Terror) has the characteristics of the old German Shepherd." Is that a good thing? Since you are in the business of selling dogs, I would think that you wouldn't mention it unless it was profitable.
> 
> Don't Sagus, Gildo, Askia, etc. possess the "the characteristics of the old German Shepherd"?
> 
> Wasn't the training different 20 years ago as well? I guess that Yoschy, Nick, etc. all also don't matter?
> 
> I thought that one of the goals of your breeding program was to produce GSDs with "the characteristics of the old German Shepherd", I guess not if "they do not matter today"


you can twist my words like you want, we come to the same end. he is a great handler but not breeder.
and yes these old dogs do not any more matter or do you may have some frozen??


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> Tell me how many success full breeder have left the sv to go with Raiser???


Eugen Ecker? I supposed that he is old, useless and hasn't contributed to the breed nearly as much as you have either...


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> you can twist my words like you want, we come to the same end. he is a great handler but not breeder.
> and yes these old dogs do not any more matter or do you may have some frozen??


I answered your question, but you didn't answer my question. Do you have a dog who has had as much impact as Sagus? Yes/No. If the answer is yes, quantify it.

Never said great breeder. I did say that he is my knowledgeable about the breed than you are based on his accomplishments and experience. 

I suppose that only breeders can evaluate the character and quality of dogs? Trainers can't. Helper can't. It is only breeders...o.k., we agree to disagree. 

You can still get Sagus' son Natan frozen...allegedly.


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> Lots here, need to take it in pieces. You are talking in circles and forever moving the target.
> 
> You stated that Raiser hadn't handled a dog that influenced the breed. I bring up Sagus, you say it doesn't matter. He sired 16 BSP competitors in a limited number of breedings. Do you have a sire who has equaled that type of influence or done better?
> 
> Given your statement above, I guess that Askia doesn't matter either. She is contemporary to many of the dogs you mention above. You have mentioned more than once that Terror/Trojan are linebred on Askia. Why mention it if dogs like that don't matter today? I do notice that as you changed your website, you left out all of the information about how you went about forming your kennel from various lines. I guess that stuff not longer matters.
> 
> Old dogs like this don't matter, but yet you state on your webpage, "He (Terror) has the characteristics of the old German Shepherd." Is that a good thing? Since you are in the business of selling dogs, I would think that you wouldn't mention it unless it was profitable.
> 
> Don't Sagus, Gildo, Askia, etc. possess the "the characteristics of the old German Shepherd"?
> 
> Wasn't the training different 20 years ago as well? I guess that Yoschy, Nick, etc. all also don't matter?
> 
> I thought that one of the goals of your breeding program was to produce GSDs with "the characteristics of the old German Shepherd", I guess not if "they do not matter today"


you really sound like a smart guy. Sagaus Busecker Schloss born 1977, 
Busecker Schloss what do you know about the Breeder??what is your experience with these dogs???would train Raiser a dog like Sagus today?

you find hardly one pedigree with Sagus on it.he is so far back that it not matter anymore,what is so hard to understand that.
why do you not answer my question from before!!what did raiser change in the gsd breed???


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> I answered your question, but you didn't answer my question. Do you have a dog who has had as much impact as Sagus? Yes/No. If the answer is yes, quantify it.
> 
> Never said great breeder. I did say that he is my knowledgeable about the breed than you are based on his accomplishments and experience.
> 
> I suppose that only breeders can evaluate the character and quality of dogs? Trainers can't. Helper can't. It is only breeders...o.k., we agree to disagree.
> 
> You can still get Sagus' son Natan frozen...allegedly.


Fasanarie is the only one,where is the rest. search my kennel name up and you get the answer how many dogs with my blood have compete, we will see what Leon,Trojan,Terror,Tyson,Lary, Conner,Gerry ... will have for an impact in the future or do you want tell me that these dogs should have all ready dogs on the big trials.oh forgot,this year 2 on wusv,the year before one and few on bsp,lga,fci.how many from you or raiser.you remind me on these guys who sit in the stadium and make smart comments and yourself you have not done any thing.

did you mean Natan Busecker Schloss, so far i know was he all time lame in the front.for sure i would use him because i need that


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> Fasanarie is the only one,where is the rest. search my kennel name up and you get the answer how many dogs with my blood have compete, we will see what Leon,Trojan,Terror,Tyson,Lary, Conner,Gerry ... will have for an impact in the future or do you want tell me that these dogs should have all ready dogs on the big trials.oh forgot,this year 2 on wusv,the year before one and few on bsp,lga,fci.how many from you or raiser.you remind me on these guys who sit in the stadium and make smart comments and yourself you have not done any thing.
> 
> did you mean Natan Busecker Schloss, so far i know was he all time lame in the front.for sure i would use him because i need that


You asked for a breeder and I gave you one. Again, you keep moving the target. At least you didn't criticize Ecker. 

Yes...you just asked about frozen, so I answered. Lame in the front could be from an injury or genetic, do you know which? Again, just answering a question. 

I answered your questions, but you didn't answer my question. Do you have a dog who has had as much impact as Sagus? He sired 16 BSP in limited breeding. Yes/No. If the answer is yes, quantify it.

Stefan....for all of the 12 years that you have been breeding. Have you put 12 dogs in the BSP? Has one ever earned an overall V? 

Like I said, I think that you are a very knowledgeable guy, passionate breeder with a nice program, but you don't do yourself any favors thumping your chest on some web board saying how great you are and arguing with people. Top breeders tend not to waste time doing such stuff. 

I will give you the last word and agree to disagree.


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> You asked for a breeder and I gave you one. Again, you keep moving the target. At least you didn't criticize Ecker.
> 
> Yes...you just asked about frozen, so I answered. Lame in the front could be from an injury or genetic, do you know which? Again, just answering a question.
> 
> I answered your questions, but you didn't answer my question. Do you have a dog who has had as much impact as Sagus? He sired 16 BSP in limited breeding. Yes/No. If the answer is yes, quantify it.
> 
> Stefan....for all of the 12 years that you have been breeding. Have you put 12 dogs in the BSP? Has one ever earned an overall V?
> 
> Like I said, I think that you are a very knowledgeable guy, passionate breeder with a nice program, but you don't do yourself any favors thumping your chest on some web board saying how great you are and arguing with people. Top breeders tend not to waste time doing such stuff.
> 
> I will give you the last word and agree to disagree.


you really think i care what people think about me, i am who i am and the truth hurt.
i do say things straight out like it is. 
and for sure no top breeder would waste time to write that stuff but i can do it because i am a small light in the big gsd world.
and if you think 12 years breeding is a long time than i know you know nothing.
i asked you before why the good breeders did not follow him and you named one.
i sit in my welping box and have nothing better to do than argue with you.to be hornets, i really like it and i can understand that people get upset.
but on the end people know i am right.Raiser was 30 years or more in sv and did not breed one dog who have make an impact,he have make a big impact in training,he is a smart guy,can talk, he used bart bellon and jogi for his promotion of the rsv, but both are not in it.

more is not to say and at one day we meet for sure and can talk again about it and maybe than i agree with or not


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## jamie lind

Mark- how many dogs from schafbachmuehle and fasanarie have qualified, and over how many years?


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## Mark Sheplak

jamie lind said:


> Mark- how many dogs from schafbachmuehle and fasanarie have qualified, and over how many years?


Don't know if you don't know how to do this or you just think that I should spend the time counting for someone like yourself who hangs out with successful people.

http://www.working-dog.eu/search/po...ame=von+der+fasanerie&powerSearchID=0&x=0&y=0

http://www.working-dog.eu/search/po...+der+Schafbachmühle&powerSearchID=0&x=15&y=13


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> you really think i care what people think about me, i am who i am and the truth hurt.
> i do say things straight out like it is.
> and for sure no top breeder would waste time to write that stuff but i can do it because i am a small light in the big gsd world.
> and if you think 12 years breeding is a long time than i know you know nothing.
> i asked you before why the good breeders did not follow him and you named one.
> i sit in my welping box and have nothing better to do than argue with you.to be hornets, i really like it and i can understand that people get upset.
> but on the end people know i am right.Raiser was 30 years or more in sv and did not breed one dog who have make an impact,he have make a big impact in training,he is a smart guy,can talk, he used bart bellon and jogi for his promotion of the rsv, but both are not in it.
> 
> more is not to say and at one day we meet for sure and can talk again about it and maybe than i agree with or not


You and Raiser share one trait!

I didn't say that 12 years is a long time as a breed. I did mention that one dog that Raiser handled sired 16 BSP dogs. I believe that happened in less than 12 years. Dogs that have impact tend to have that impact within a decade, no? How about Javir Talka Marta? Is he having impact on the breed in less than 12 years? 

Regardless, I DO HOPE that your dogs have an impact and better the breed.


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## Erik Berg

Stefan Schaub said:


> he is a great trainer but his opinion about a good gsd for breeding is far away from that what we need.why should my dog on a breed survey or Talentsichtung go with someone else, why should my dog hold the sleve in sit position or down position and why should my dog answer on a wip.is that something what belongs in a evaluation.no that is trained behavior.


Have rasier breed many dogs during the years? I see he had have a few litter the last few years, with olek von der maineche and a few others, using his own female dame. Is this not dogs good enough for breeding, dame and her littermates did very well in ISP, even if this may be a competition( I don´t know) for raiser and his buddies, her littermate that won the event looks not so bad, or?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwCy92WaCuM

I guess the question is if from a german standpoint if RSV and their tests/regulations and how they are performed/judged while not perfect are still better than what is used by SV, and hence it´s a step into the right direction.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Erik Berg said:


> Have rasier breed many dogs during the years? I see he had have a few litter the last few years, with olek von der maineche and a few others, using his own female dame. Is this not dogs good enough for breeding, dame and her littermates did very well in ISP, even if this may be a competition( I don´t know) for raiser and his buddies, her littermate that won the event looks not so bad, or?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwCy92WaCuM
> 
> I guess the question is if from a german standpoint if RSV and their tests/regulations and how they are performed/judged while not perfect are still better than what is used by SV, and hence it´s a step into the right direction.


This is my question. SV vs. RSV--how are they different? Can't tell from the website what is really going on with it. You guys seem to equate BSP participation as evidence of breed impact. What does it take to qualify for the BSP? Is there a consensus that the dogs are really challenged at the BSP so that it qualifies as testament to breed worthiness? Just askin, from those who follow the stats.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> You and Raiser share one trait!
> 
> I didn't say that 12 years is a long time as a breed. I did mention that one dog that Raiser handled sired 16 BSP dogs. I believe that happened in less than 12 years. Dogs that have impact tend to have that impact within a decade, no? How about Javir Talka Marta? Is he having impact on the breed in less than 12 years?
> 
> Regardless, I DO HOPE that your dogs have an impact and better the breed.


Interesting you mention Javir. Thought I'd check out the kennel and like others, its always interesting to see who they are breeding too as they continue on: http://www.talka-marda.de/zucht/zucht.html

T


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## Mark Horne

Hi Terrasita,

Some of the relevance of the BSP is down to the huge number of Clubs in Germany and that competitors have to progress from local, to regional (LGA) rounds prior to eventually getting to the BSP, the German Nationals for the the GSD.
Its not that the dogs are really any better but there is more good dogs if that makes sense but what is much better is the general average standard.

So here in the UK we might have 16 dogs competing in our all breed Nationals tomorrow, the BSP may have 140. 

Someone more knowledgeable than me will have to comment on the impact on the breed.

Regards 

Mark


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## Alex Scott

Stefan Schaub said:


> you really think i care what people think about me, i am who i am and the truth hurt.
> i do say things straight out like it is.
> and for sure no top breeder would waste time to write that stuff but i can do it because i am a small light in the big gsd world.
> and if you think 12 years breeding is a long time than i know you know nothing.
> i asked you before why the good breeders did not follow him and you named one.
> i sit in my welping box and have nothing better to do than argue with you.to be hornets, i really like it and i can understand that people get upset.
> but on the end people know i am right.Raiser was 30 years or more in sv and did not breed one dog who have make an impact,he have make a big impact in training,he is a smart guy,can talk, he used bart bellon and jogi for his promotion of the rsv, but both are not in it.
> 
> more is not to say and at one day we meet for sure and can talk again about it and maybe than i agree with or not


Thank you for the correct information on Raiser, even if it wasn't what people wanted to hear. 

What do you think of Kid and King haus challenge?


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## Gillian Schuler

Alex, please tell me what you think is the correct information on Helmut Raiser. Do you know him? Have you read about him?

What should all of us not like to hear?


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## jamie lind

Mark Sheplak said:


> Don't know if you don't know how to do this or you just think that I should spend the time counting for someone like yourself who hangs out with successful people.
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/search/po...ame=von+der+fasanerie&powerSearchID=0&x=0&y=0
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/search/po...+der+Schafbachmühle&powerSearchID=0&x=15&y=13


I thought you would know. I guess you don't, maybe you should count.


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## Mark Sheplak

jamie lind said:


> I thought you would know. I guess you don't, maybe you should count.


Maybe one of the successful people that you hang out with will know exact numbers. I do know that both kennels have had an impact on the breed.


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## jamie lind

Mark Sheplak said:


> Maybe one of the successful people that you hang out with will know exact numbers. I do know that both kennels have had an impact on the breed.


I guess in a way you could say I had an impact on you. Everyone defines impact in a different way. How do you define it?


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## Andie Jackson

Mark Sheplak said:


> There is a Tom son that is in Florida, Dax v. Brabantsbloed, but you might not be excited about the dam's line.
> 
> Saw that, but that is part of the sport. The tracking scores seemed to be brutal for many.


Hi Mark. I AM a "sport" enthusiast, but curious about the comment on the dam of Dax v Brabantsbloed. Zorra and Tom have the same grandsire (Orry) on the father side, and on the mother side of Zorra is Gent od Policie, out of many old CS lines. What part of the breeding of Zorra are you less than excited about? I am always interested in opinions on bloodlines!


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