# This dog has angry pants



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

THis is an interesting dog to watch work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYFGiLoHmR0&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

It is interesting to watch the dog from start to finish and the changes in his bark.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

I like this dog's "angry pants" and barking in the beginning ;-) The grips no so much! 

Then they rewarded him for "yippy" barking [-X But the grips were better.

What did you think Jeff?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think that the helper should have quit while he was ahead.

It is unfortunate for this guy, as he is kinda gettin goofed on by me, but it does show how differing "styles" of work, can make a dog look dumb as shit. 

Also proves my point about how gay Sch is, and how they might as well use clickers for all the shaping they are doing for the B&H.

HA HA


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think that the helper should have quit while he was ahead.
> 
> It is unfortunate for this guy, as he is kinda gettin goofed on by me, but it does show how differing "styles" of work, can make a dog look dumb as shit.
> 
> ...


If your gauging Schutzhund training from this ass hat's work than you have a point. Great way to **** up a nice dog


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Well to me it just didn't seem like the guy was doing much to keep the dogs drive up.It seemed as though he would reward the dog with a bite at piss poor times. Which IMO seemed to make the dog realize he didn't have to work hard for a bite. Plus why tie the dog off. I'm new to all of this but havn't seen many tie there dogs off and do bite work like that much. Unless its just one person and one dog.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jason Moore said:


> Well to me it just didn't seem like the guy was doing much to keep the dogs drive up.It seemed as though he would reward the dog with a bite at piss poor times. Which IMO seemed to make the dog realize he didn't have to work hard for a bite. Plus why tie the dog off. I'm new to all of this but havn't seen many tie there dogs off and do bite work like that much. Unless its just one person and one dog.


There isnt one thing the helper did that was rite.
And the handler might as well been sitting in his car waiting till it was it time to put his or who evers dog it was away.
I don't understand why someone would go through all that effort of importing and money spent and go and tie there dog up to a pole and stand around bullshitting wile someone is doing who know what to there dog.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think that the helper should have quit while he was ahead.
> 
> Also proves my point about how gay Sch is, and how they might as well use clickers for all the shaping they are doing for the B&H.
> 
> HA HA


I agree, SchH has become "gay" and this video is a classic example of why. You take a nice dog with some good aggression and character and do what? Make him fit the mold...because Lord knows it's done this way for umptenth years and it MUST continue :twisted: Biggest trouble is not working the dog in front of you...bummer.

And Mike I agree...you add the idiot owner chatting away and this nice dog is destined for the kennel. I'd have to look at the video again but did you see this dog's body language when the owner was in the picture? Didn't seem too comfortable with him. Still doesn't excuse shooting the breeze while you're dog is being worked. I HATE chatting on the field when working dogs!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So what do you think the thought process was behind what that guy was doing ??


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So what do you think the thought process was behind what that guy was doing ??


I have no clue. It honestly looked to me like had no idea he never stopped
twitching/moving the dog was allowed to take pot shots and he rewarded for shit barking. He slipped the sleeve and just let the dog take it to the ground. No interaction from the handler.
Dog comes out all fired up ready for some fun. And who is his opponent "MR Buzz Kill"
Candy apparently you must be training with the same sorts as these mofos if you think this is how Schutzhund is.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How many other clubs do you train with ?? LOL


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Just our club MVSV
I do go seek out Pro's and friends for specific needs.2 weeks ago James Laney was with in 3 hrs of me He's not only a great world class trial helper but world class dog training helper I wanted him to put some over the top pressure on my dog above what he will see at a nationals. Also he is big and fast I worked some escapes and he also gave me some great advice.
I go to other club's to expose my dog and my self to different fields and helpers and visit with friends but not for dog training.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have no clue. It honestly looked to me like had no idea he never stopped
> twitching/moving the dog was allowed to take pot shots and he rewarded for shit barking. He slipped the sleeve and just let the dog take it to the ground. No interaction from the handler.
> Dog comes out all fired up ready for some fun. And who is his opponent "MR Buzz Kill"
> Candy apparently you must be training with the same sorts as these mofos if you think this is how Schutzhund is.





Mike Scheiber said:


> I have no clue. It honestly looked to me like had no idea he never stopped
> Candy apparently you must be training with the same sorts as these mofos if you think this is how Schutzhund is.


Mike you don't need to train with helpers like this to be able to observe what's going on :razz: And if you visit enough clubs you'll find more just like this guy #-oYou should get out more Mike ;-)~

The dog's opponent was not just Mr Buzz Kill but the helper too. What was that hands covering the dog's eyes thing?!?! No wonder the dog has angry pants! The first three bark/holds, bites and off the field. This is a young pup (11 months old).


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Candy apparently you must be training with the same sorts as these mofos if you think this is how Schutzhund is.


Yeah Candy, you must be training with the same sorts. :-D


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah Candy, you must be training with the same sorts. :-D


Hey Mister....watch it :razz: I'd rather do NO training than take a nice dog with good aggression and let some yahoo practice his voodoo on him!! You KNOW me and my boy ;-)~ 

You have to know what "good" training is before you can recognize it. This helper was NOT it!!


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Looks to me like the dog got bored, and uninterested


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Possibly the mind set of the decoy was siimple, to calm the dog down. The dog obviously has grip issues when he is higher in drive and so the decoy might have been trying to fix it. Not sayin its great work, but I think its a bit lame to pull up a youtube clip and shitcan some dudes without them being there to defend themselfs. Not everyone is Ivan, and last count none of us are either. :roll:


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

i think the helper work was poor, the helper was too passive for such a young dog. Calm the dog down i disagree chris i would have been moving faster... saying that he didnt really look a fit dude


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Barrie Kirkland said:


> i think the helper work was poor, the helper was too passive for such a young dog. Calm the dog down i disagree chris i would have been moving faster... saying that he didnt really look a fit dude


 I agree with you, but not everyone has access to great decoys. This might be a young group trying to train and learn with their dogs? Maybe they had a good decoy but he left and this dude stepped in to the shoes so their club had a decoy. I dont know, but just to ridicule the dude on a major forum is poor form. Postive feedback is great, but couldnt see any of that going on.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I agree with you, but not everyone has access to great decoys. This might be a young group trying to train and learn with their dogs? Maybe they had a good decoy but he left and this dude stepped in to the shoes so their club had a decoy. I don't know, but just to ridicule the dude on a major forum is poor form. Postive feedback is great, but couldnt see any of that going on.


OK Chris give ONE example of something these 2 people did that was positive in this session.
Oh well collateral damage and its on youtube so someone must be proud of it.
I only mentioned 1/3 of the issues with this session and I wouldn't have posted jack shit if Jeff hadn't released the hold and bark diarrhea.
80% of the stuff on youtube is worse than this so there in the top 20%.
Another thing ain't you one of the big yappers on here how pussy assed Schutzhund has become well here is a perfect example they posted it for the world to enjoy.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> OK Chris give ONE example of something these 2 people did that was positive in this session.
> Oh well collateral damage and its on youtube so someone must be proud of it.
> I only mentioned 1/3 of the issues with this session and I wouldn't have posted jack shit if Jeff hadn't released the hold and bark diarrhea.
> 80% of the stuff on youtube is worse than this so there in the top 20%.
> Another thing ain't you one of the big yappers on here how pussy assed Schutzhund has become well here is a perfect example they posted it for the world to enjoy.


The first positive thing they did was to actually take their dogs out and try to train their dogs to the best of their ability. Here we all bitch about how people should work their dogs, "dont worry if your a bad handler or a new decoy, we all started there". The important thing to is GET INVOLVED. We dont know what stage they are at in their development, they might be a group of keen dudes, not unlike ourselfs, who really love their dogs and want to compete. I have no problem with, "I think they are making a mistake with this dog, they should encourage more prey, not less to fix the problem". But what we got was "what a stupid bunch of hick ****ers who dont know what the **** they are doing, stupid ****ers" Just imagine Mike, if your great decoy left your club and there was noone to step up and do the decoy work, so you did. Then an owner of the one of the dog youtubes a training session and you later got to read a heap of comments on how much of a ****up you are. Theres no class in that Mike. There by the grace of god go we. 
How many of the 1000's and 1000's of people doing the sport are world class decoys or trainers? Maybe 1%? Lets face facts here Mike, neither you, Jeff, nor I are in this 1%. So what if those 1% spent their time laughing at the way you handle your dog, or how you presented the tug too late? Nothings gained. By all means give helpful advice, just dont call them stupid ****ers.
And yes, Im one of the people who think SchH is the lesser of the dog sports, but I dont judge SchH by a group of guys trying to train it, I judge it by the sport itself and the rules and people who control it.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Perfect Chris, right on the money.

Mike, don't forget your signature used to say your dog was the " next great thing" or something like that.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

I will have to agree with you on this Chris even though I didn't exactly have the nicest things to say about the vid when I first seen it. And I am a coplete newb so who am I to judge although I have whatched numorous championship level videos so I like to make observations and comments to see if maybe I'm on the right track with my thoughts. But on the other hand I do get sick and tired of when I ask for advice on future bite work or any thing for that matter and every one says do nothing until you find a club or you will **** up your dog. 

Well guess what with doing nothing until we found a club what where we told when we got there with my cousins 10month old gsd. You should have done atleast some basic ob. 

Now in saying this I don't think when a video is posted with incorrect methods any one should sugar coat it. But maybe not bash quite as much. 

But when I start posting my videos on here in the future If some one sees any thing wrong I wont them to feel free to tell me what I'm doing wrong but I'd also like a list of what there idea is on how to correct the problem. For thats what seems to be the norm is telling whats wrong with out help on getting to whats right.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Perfect Chris, right on the money.
> 
> Mike, don't forget your signature used to say your dog was the " next great thing" or something like that.


Fixed it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> The first positive thing they did was to actually take their dogs out and try to train their dogs to the best of their ability. Here we all bitch about how people should work their dogs, "dont worry if your a bad handler or a new decoy, we all started there". The important thing to is GET INVOLVED. We dont know what stage they are at in their development, they might be a group of keen dudes, not unlike ourselfs, who really love their dogs and want to compete. I have no problem with, "I think they are making a mistake with this dog, they should encourage more prey, not less to fix the problem". But what we got was "what a stupid bunch of hick ****ers who dont know what the **** they are doing, stupid ****ers" Just imagine Mike, if your great decoy left your club and there was noone to step up and do the decoy work, so you did. Then an owner of the one of the dog youtubes a training session and you later got to read a heap of comments on how much of a ****up you are. Theres no class in that Mike. There by the grace of god go we.
> How many of the 1000's and 1000's of people doing the sport are world class decoys or trainers? Maybe 1%? Lets face facts here Mike, neither you, Jeff, nor I are in this 1%. So what if those 1% spent their time laughing at the way you handle your dog, or how you presented the tug too late? Nothings gained. By all means give helpful advice, just dont call them stupid ****ers.
> And yes, Im one of the people who think SchH is the lesser of the dog sports, but I dont judge SchH by a group of guys trying to train it, I judge it by the sport itself and the rules and people who control it.


I didn't intend for my remarks to become personal rather examples of stupid training.
I cant count the number of decoys that have passes through our club in the last 7 years several are now making money on what they learned from us one is making a living.:?


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## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I didn't intend for my remarks to become personal rather examples of stupid training.


Didn't you call the guy an ass on the first page of this thread? No that is not getting personal at all LOL

For all you know this guy is very new to helper work


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> Didn't you call the guy an ass on the first page of this thread? No that is not getting personal at all LOL
> 
> For all you know this guy is very new to helper work


I checked your rite.
I rated there work in the to 20% of youtube vids


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

all i can say is thank god i had the privilege to work with, and watch, bernard flinks this summer. that's a man who KNOWS dogs, and knows how to work them to bring out their best, then improve upon it.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

ann freier said:


> all i can say is thank god i had the privilege to work with, and watch, bernard flinks this summer. that's a man who KNOWS dogs, and knows how to work them to bring out their best, then improve upon it.


 So we can look forward to some videos of you decoying soon?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh, AREN'T you funny!!!

i COULD post some pics of working on drive-building--in which case i'm sorta the decoy the dog might/might not blow off, lol.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

ann freier said:


> oh, AREN'T you funny!!!
> 
> i COULD post some pics of working on drive-building--in which case i'm sorta the decoy the dog might/might not blow off, lol.


 I try to be funny sometimes :lol:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ah well, i tried to copy/paste the pics, but it'll have to wait until i can consult w/ the tech support staff. it should be good for a glimpse of a DOG that at least had some potential...

"decoy" potential.....well i could run at least 50', lol


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> I agree with you, but not everyone has access to great decoys. This might be a young group trying to train and learn with their dogs? Maybe they had a good decoy but he left and this dude stepped in to the shoes so their club had a decoy. I dont know, but just to ridicule the dude on a major forum is poor form. Postive feedback is great, but couldnt see any of that going on.



i agree, hence im not going to get drawn into it... its true.... my club has the same problem, when the licensed regular helpers arent there, joe member has to step in occassionaly


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It wasn't really supposed to be a slam per se, but it was a good example of how behavior shaping is used to develop the hold and bark.

The dog started out awesome, and in the end was weird and lifeless.

Not every dog goes along with what you want it too. 

Now with that being said, I would have probably given the dog a bite, dropped the sleeve and ran behind the blind. 

I would HOPE that this would encourage the dog to put on his big boy pants the next time and stay where he was in drive with a little less of the Oh SHIT factor. I didn't think that the decoy really let the dog win that one at all. 

That is just MY take on what "I" would have done a bit differently.

What would YOU have done differently ??

It is easy to poke fun, but anyone that has done the work has had a dog that they worked bonk out because you missed something. The idea wasn't to make fun, but to show a good example of behavior shaping in the bark and hold. : )


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

You're right Chris, my bad. It's hard not to comment on this nice young dog without commenting on the work the helper was doing with him in the video. 

No matter which way you look at the comments posted here, this decoy was not helping the dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You guys are such pussies. Can't answer basic questions. HA HA :-D


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Experienced decoy, but not very good?*



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You guys are such pussies. Can't answer basic questions. HA HA :-D


My two cents solely based on the short video clip 

The decoy is experienced, but not very good at reading young dogs. Way TOO much defense. Nice young dog, needs a lot better decoy/Training director and an involved owner.
I've seen several very good training decoys put their hand over dogs muzzle to get him to bite deeper (opposition reflex) but the hand over the eyes doesn't serve any purpose
IMHO unless the decoy is REAL UGLY and you're trying to avoid scaring the dog.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: Experienced decoy, but not very good?*

reminds me of chubby brown sketch ...about a 2 bagger

or he was playing hide and seek

but i agree bout under the chin... its encourages a better grip


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

From the out side looking in. First I would find a helper that can work/train this dog next put together a functioning team and restart the foundation bite work and get that in order then start dog training. Your fishing for a break down sorry don't work that way the dog tells how things should go and the helper has the tools to bring the dog along.
Jeff since you like to play judge how do you train dogs


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Where is the handler in all this?If i see the decoy does not have what it takes for my dog i would be right there with my dog,encourage him as much as i can.When he is fired up enough(no matter what so called drive he would be in) two good barks and let him take the bite,slip him the sleeve and bye for now.Keep it short!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

First off, the dog was distracted by owner as he tied him up on the long line and secondly he'd have been better standing next to him and supporting in my view. I also think shorter "sessions" and more praise.

I won't comment on the decoy's work because I don't know what his thoughts were and whether, or how many times, he'd worked this dog.

Noticed slackening grips from pressure but couldn't see the "awesomeness" of this dog at the beginning. Can't see how any one can competently comment on a one-off video viewing and admire Christopher for reminding us not to be so damned bitchy. Goodonya!!

We had a terrific helper, trained some podest placed BSP / FCI dogs but he left us for other fields (blonde, petite and utterly charming). Since then I've more or less lost heart in training (but not quite). 

Some helpers, even licensed ones, cannot read dogs as well as others (few and far between) but they do their best and, instead of criticising, it might be an idea to suggest they go to a helper workshop and learn to read the dog by watching the masters and listening to a running commentary given by another helper.

If anyone sniggered at a handler or another helper, our above helper got quite angry and asked them if they knew why so and so was reacting as he/she was. This shut them up.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff since you like to play judge how do you train dogs

Not like that. I guess you didn't read where I wrote what I would do. 


Reading is fundamental.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Not every dog goes along with what you want it too.
> Now with that being said, I would have probably given the dog a bite, dropped the sleeve and ran behind the blind.


Sounds like it would be worth a try but sort of a drop in the bucket looking at the big picture guess I misunderstood the question.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I did not think that dog was vocalizing out of confidence. By giving him the bite, and running away, I would hope to give him a boost.

Of course, you probably got that point. : )

I thought this was a good example of how a dog goes from point A to point B by shaping the behavior. Too often we see the nearly finished product, and not the early stages, like what was shown here.

I love to tease the Sch people that talk about "power" in the blind, but I thought it was a good example of how shaping works. Maybe not the way "I" would want it shaped, but with such a big difference, it is more readily apparent that this exercise is shaped, and talk of "power" in the blind is goofy.


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