# Cerberus - Vitor's younger half brother



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-65jInZKlQ

Looks like he comes in slow but he starts very close to me and bungeed


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nice work. I love your taste in music. I just put this same one on one of mine.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

from Mika x Tommy, right?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> from Mika x Tommy, right?


Yes, and he is the highly flammable type! Ignites easily:evil:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Gotta love those Van Leeuwen line dogs LOL:mrgreen:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Gotta love those Van Leeuwen line dogs LOL:mrgreen:


This is his second time on the bungee. Showing him a slow esquive so he has a chance! Biting is his best subject  . He's a bit quicker to get angry than Vitor is, a little more reactive I guess! Bites very hard for his age!


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

very nice pup!


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> This is his second time on the bungee. Showing him a slow esquive so he has a chance! Biting is his best subject  . He's a bit quicker to get angry than Vitor is, a little more reactive I guess! Bites very hard for his age!


He already was quicker as a pup, easier for a first time handler, that's why I picked this guy for Igor;-)

Looks nice...after all is over here at home I will make some photos/video of Ceberus sister Mia, we didn't do much yet, but she does bite full & hard on a young dogsleeve & I found my video camera again ;-)


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah, I'd like to see Mia!
Igor really likes Cerb and I do to 


Carmen van de Kamp said:


> He already was quicker as a pup, easier for a first time handler, that's why I picked this guy for Igor;-)
> 
> Looks nice...after all is over here at home I will make some photos/video of Ceberus sister Mia, we didn't do much yet, but she does bite full & hard on a young dogsleeve & I found my video camera again ;-)


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Nice pivot legs! I think it's a bad idea to show the dog the tug before/during the outs, tho.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Nice pivot legs! I think it's a bad idea to show the dog the tug before/during the outs, tho.


No it's not!!!Michael tell you that? Learning phase Lisa. Cause eventually it's never in sight!your head is over your skis Lisa! I have a few video of whistle recalls on my channel, check them out.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Yes it is!!! That's never the picture the dog sees. Especially one that likes to fight?!?!? Here, buddy, please come back, I have something for ya.... During whistle-backs I don't show my toy, so the dog learns right from the start that THIS is the right picture. I ski the trees and you're still slope-side. HA!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

You heel with a ball? How come, the dog will never see that.
Lisa, you are clueless. Show us the barrage and man focus in your video. You obviously did not know what you were talking about! I think you just fell off the cliff, it's OK


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Tim what is the purpose of the bungee, build frustration/control??? dog's working nice - i think?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

First time whistle recalling too since he is not winning the sleeve.
Please tell the French how you'd get this dog off the bite the first time. We are waiting!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Tim what is the purpose of the bungee, build frustration/control??? dog's working nice - i think?


Resistance for faster entries, also control to slow him down to keep dog and decoy safe! Also the strike initially, they need to hold on the first time!


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

No heeling with a damn ball! No tug in my armpit, either! Damn you're old skool, huh? Just for that after I'm done having FUN in mondio, I'll take the french ring challenge..... Maybe I can train with you, if it isn't too much of a sausage fest. I promise I won't swoon or cry or anything, as long as you don't make me show the toy on the out.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

a bungeee does all that?? just rying to get my head around the various techniques - most of the vids/ training i have *watched* comes from sch style never seen the bungee come up in any of that but they are trying to achieve same thing - except the leg targget not the arm-sleeve, bites a bite isn't it?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> No heeling with a damn ball! No tug in my armpit, either! Damn you're old skool, huh? Just for that after I'm done having FUN in mondio, I'll take the french ring challenge..... Maybe I can train with you, if it isn't too much of a sausage fest. I promise I won't swoon or cry or anything, as long as you don't make me show the toy on the out.


Not gonna answer the other question? Barrage? Man focus?
Funny cause I have seen Michael use a ball to bait!

So would you prong this dog off the bite if he didn't come off?


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Haven't you seen _any_ Michael videos?  Whistle backs away from the bite work. Restrained recalls. Use tugs and not sleeves first. Mark when the dog comes off. Pull and present toy. Try it. You might like it. 

It's the wagon I fell off of.... Whatev's


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

I thought I answered those questions on the other thread.....


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Haven't you seen _any_ Michael videos?  Whistle backs away from the bite work. Restrained recalls. Use tugs and not sleeves first. Mark when the dog comes off. Pull and present toy. Try it. You might like it.
> 
> It's the wagon I fell off of.... Whatev's


This is the problem, you are ME sick!
He was told yes when he came off and if he won't come off or have you never dealt with a less compliant dog Lisa?
Let's take it slow Lisa, if he doesn't come off behind cause he limes the biting then what Lisa? Prong collar ? Wait, can't use those in a trial \\/
If he won't come off if your waving it in his face do you just stand behind him LMAO. Maybe just more cookies and clickers? Or more restrained recalls, that will get a dog like him off the bite. 
ME sick!


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Prong? Not the first time..... 

Look - I've seen it done your way, and the dogs that I've seen go through this can be sticky. That's all. You whistle, they look, no tug, no familiar picture.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Haven't you seen _any_ Michael videos?  Whistle backs away from the bite work. Restrained recalls. Use tugs and not sleeves first. Mark when the dog comes off. Pull and present toy. Try it. You might like it.
> 
> It's the wagon I fell off of.... Whatev's


LOL, he has used 2 people and tugs and no Michael did not invent that either


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Prong? Not the first time.....
> 
> Look - I've seen it done your way, and the dogs that I've seen go through this can be sticky. That's all. You whistle, they look, no tug, no familiar picture.


I don't have those problems, maybe you have bad timing! Once you are out of sight the tug comes out immediately when he turns. Then eventually after a couple steps but never the same and sometimes they should finish when you work up to it, intermittent. You already know that!


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> If he won't come off if your waving it in his face do you just stand behind him LMAO.


Nope. :-k Isn't that what you're doing? Waving it in his face?

What do you do when the dog won't come off? [-o<


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Lisa there are several benefits to using the tug to initially work the out. Not only does it make the out no conflict but it also teaches the dog to eject the right way off the leg. Left leg, eject to the left, right leg, eject to the right. Just like any other lure, you progressively remove the visibility of the tug/ball and move yourself more center and further back. It can make for lightening quick outs if done this way, but it comes down to the dog in the end. No matter how you reward, the fight with the decoy is always more fun. Some dogs like that fight a whole lot more and then you are going to get that sticking, not from seeing the toy but from the fun he is having. I have a guess that Vitor is going to be a great example of this.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Nope. :-k Isn't that what you're doing? Waving it in his face?
> 
> What do you do when the dog won't come off? [-o<


Yes and it's called repititions with little steps, without compulsion. You have obviously never worked with a less compliant dog! 
It's ok Lisa keep paying those huge prices .


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

This is teaching. You wait the dog out. How is what he doing any different than how ME immobilizes the tug when teaching the out initially? You freeze up and let the dog figure it out. Same thing here, decoy stops the action, whistle is blown and a fun alternative is presented. Same concepts are being applied in both.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> This is teaching. You wait the dog out. How is what he doing any different than how ME immobilizes the tug when teaching the out initially? You freeze up and let the dog figure it out. Same thing here, decoy stops the action, whistle is blown and a fun alternative is presented. Same concepts are being applied in both.


Well put Jake!
I think she is having a problem visualizing and using common sense other than what Michael had taught her. She's in the zone!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Haven't you seen _any_ Michael videos?  Whistle backs away from the bite work. Restrained recalls. Use tugs and not sleeves first. Mark when the dog comes off. Pull and present toy. Try it. You might like it.
> 
> It's the wagon I fell off of.... Whatev's


I see what your talking about on the whistle recalls!

Michael and Pi 3 minutes 20 seconds www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbuFE5looc4
Poihson Voltes ring club 4 minutes 20 seconds www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXgFHsGd77M
Poihson Voltes ring club 3minutes 20 seconds www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0edn4d7NbU
Vitor 4 minutes and 50 seconds www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YqePOjKeHs


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Nice pivot legs! I think it's a bad idea to show the dog the tug before/during the outs, tho.


I think it's a bad idea to reward the dog for half grips at 57 seconds.
I also believe its a bad idea to detach the leg sleeve when the dog is pulling at 50 seconds, especially since the dog started off pushing in at the beginning, but that's just me!
This critiquing is fun!
www.youtube.com/user/LisaBriz7#p/a/u/1/1yM2FAII3W8


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Yes it is!!! That's never the picture the dog sees. Especially one that likes to fight?!?!? Here, buddy, please come back, I have something for ya.... During whistle-backs I don't show my toy, so the dog learns right from the start that THIS is the right picture. I ski the trees and you're still slope-side. HA!


Maybe this will help you understand better so you're not such a smart ass *next time!*

With inexperienced dogs you structure the training so that it is difficult if not impossible to be “wrong”. 

“Bribing” the puppy in this way is one of COUNTLESS things one must eventually fade as you progressively approach a finished product. One of countless "pictures" the dog is never going to see in a trial. On the other hand, I’ve dealt with a puppy who was much lower threshold and was “startled” enough at the sound of the whistle that she’d bounce right off a bite, no problem. Cerberus is not such a dog. 

So here is how the long-term plan is probably going to go with Cerberus. 

The handler starts at 1 o’clock (which is what we’re currently doing) and then progressively works his way down to 6 o’clock position with the tug always visible at first. Straight up bribery. No argument about semantics there.  

By time he gets to six o’clock the dog can’t see him back there anyway, so then he can begin the process of bringing the dog to the desired position and then rewarding (not bribing anymore). CLOSER TO WHERE VITOR IS IN THE VIDEO!

This should make it as seamless and correction free as possible for this, how you say, PUPPY. 

Then once the foundation is exhaustively promoted and the MOOD of training sufficiently flashy and enjoyable, then we can start to provoke mistakes and introduce punishment once we’re 100% clear that the dog already knows the way to turn off the discomfort. 

Is there any argument here Lisa? Or would you prefer that we go to the prong a lot sooner?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Maybe this will help you understand better so you're not such a smart ass *next time!*
> 
> With inexperienced dogs you structure the training so that it is difficult if not impossible to be “wrong”.
> 
> ...


can you pontificate on this a little? thanks  lower threshold for?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> can you pontificate on this a little? thanks  lower threshold for?


Meta-cognitive reasoning !  Whistle decibel sensitivity also 
Using Pontificate=metro sexual


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

At least you CAN bribe Cerberus with a toy when the decoy is there.](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> At least you CAN bribe Cerberus with a toy when the decoy is there.](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


I think I know what your saying LOL!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I see what your talking about on the whistle recalls!
> 
> Michael and Pi 3 minutes 20 seconds www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbuFE5looc4
> Poihson Voltes ring club 4 minutes 20 seconds www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXgFHsGd77M
> ...


Furthermore, the "picture" during most of the duration of a recall (the trip back)*is NOT a terribly critical moment. The hump to get over is leaving the bite and ditching the decoy.* That probably takes less than a second. It looks like Pi's trip back is treated almost like pointless filler by Michael, as we can judge by the speed of his recall. It looks like our dogs are having a much better time of it, frankly. Taking extra time and effort to specifically train the mood of the recall is only going to help reliability too, in my opinion. And really, I'm pretty much up for anything to avoid corrections.

But I have no doubt he knows exactly what he's doing (and why)at every single step, so I'm not going to criticize his way of achieving his objective (he obviously got the job done), but my issue here is you taking his gospel and making a half-assed translation of it for my supposed benefit.

Remember, between me and my club members we've seen him multiple times and have multiple DVDs. I'm not exactly just wingin' it on this topic. Hell, one of my members is IN a DVD. LOL


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Nice pup! And don't worry, you are doing the right thing with the tug to make him out


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Wow. I didn't mean to hurt your feelers.

I won't 'critique' your videos anymore. Your are so superiorly awesome that clearly it's not my place. I even got a 'WWTSD?' bracelet for the next time I play tug. And I'm not being gay...

Is that a 2007 video of PI? Cool.

When I first started this whole MR thing I asked a guy "How do I know who to listen to? Everybody tells me they are the 'expert' and I should do it their way...." And the guy said "Look at their dog. Watch them work. Do you like what you see? If so, do it their way..." Then I watched his dog do some obedience, and then a stopped attacked. Pi was flawless, and oh so happy to work. So I train that way, the best that I can.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> When I first started this whole MR thing I asked a guy "How do I know who to listen to? Everybody tells me they are the 'expert' and I should do it their way...." And the guy said "Look at their dog. Watch them work. Do you like what you see? If so, do it their way..." Then I watched his dog do some obedience, and then a stopped attacked. Pi was flawless, and oh so happy to work. So I train that way, the best that I can.


 I thought we were talking about whistle recalls!

I really can care less about all that garbage you just spewed!
You were wrong and now you know it!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Nice pup! And don't worry, you are doing the right thing with the tug to make him out


Thanks Martine, it's good to hear from somebody who has dogs that were actually champions.
Problem here is that one sport is dominated by one person and one method with Followers so there is basically no innovation in training. They basically just do as there shown and become dependent on that person and their one method. Pretty sad and a real null for innovation!
Could you imagine if in your sport of Belgian Ring everyone trained under one person?


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## Richard Rutt (May 14, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Thanks Martine, it's good to hear from somebody who has dogs that were actually champions.
> Problem here is that one sport is dominated by one person and one method with Followers so there is basically no innovation in training. They basically just do as there shown and become dependent on that person and their one method. Pretty sad and a real null for innovation!
> Could you imagine if in your sport of Belgian Ring everyone trained under one person?


For the record, I completely agree with Martine, you are doing the outs correct with the tug, and you already know what the next steps are, and what to work on. 

Not to mention you are talking about a sport (Mondio) that really has no base, or foundation of it's own, and comparing it to 2 Sports (Belgian and French Ring) that have very specific bases of training, that have been proofed over many, many years.


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