# Issues in a crate when I am gone



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I have a 3.5 month old malinois pup , 
I am having a little issue with 
i got him at 9 weeks old , and have been using the crate since day one, 
he is crated when i am sleeping , and when i am gone, also sometimes when i am home for a bit, and at training classes where i teach , he is crated and just hangs out watching everyone and falls asleep 
Problem is every time i put him in a crate and leave he pees in his crate, 
Origianlly when i got him he had a UTI , it has been cleared up for some time now and i check his pee about once a week on my pee strips to make sure its still ok ( and not the cause ) of this issue

SO in EVERY senario that i crate him he is good, 
he sleeps through the night for 8 hrs no peeing in his crate, 
at class he is there, no issues hanging out , and at home if i put him in it he is quiet , and just lyes down, once in a while he will let out a little whine but nothing big 

So i was wondering if he was peeing in excitement when i came home and then coulndt hold it or what was going on , the other day i had left and forgot my gloves so came back in the house about 10 min in , he was in a full out barking hysteria,
i have waited out of the house before to see if he was quiet and he always was
so today i videoed him, he is quiet for about 5 min, then goies crazy , barking howling like mad, biting at the cage, you name it , he is upset for sure
I put a kong and a rawhide in there to keep him busy , he is eating the rawhide but crying the whole time ! ( that was kinda funny to see) 

today or tues he did not pee in his crate ( first 2 times ever) i have left no blankets or anything in there with him , with the blankets he would pee on them then bunch them in a corner so he wouldnt have to deal with it
he is a super clean puppy , totally housetrained, uses the dog door, no issues with that at all 
i am wondering for tips on what i can do when i am not there?
if he was older i would consider a bark collar, to stop the process but he is to young and dont want to do that right now .
i have came back in and gabe him heck for being loud, 2 times now, and he quiets down, but who knows what happens when i leave

so i think he is peeing, cuz he is working himself into a frenzy while i am gone
I only leave for 3-5 hrs MAX , and i know he can hold it , 
if anyone has tips i would love to hear it 

i know someone will ask if i let him out ever when he is crazy , and the answer is i HAVE in the past
because he is a baby and has to get out to pee when i go home, but now i open the door ( we have done crate games) he cannot come out of crate until he is calm and quiet even if the door is open , so he waits till i say realease, and that has been going on for about 3 weeks .

P. S he is WELL exercised and stimulated, I have 9 dogs, and my other mal Vandal plays non stop with him all day .,, we also do walks in the bush . he goes to the pet s tore i work at, and comes to class, where we also do training, no lack of exercise for him ,


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just ride it out. Mint did the same thing at that age, would go outside, not want to go potty, went potty, and then would pee or poop in the crate and I just went to go get the mail. (5 minutes maybe) Of course I made his life miserable, and would spray the crate out with the hose and leave him outside to dry, but that is just me. I want them to understand that I am pissed every single time. I say nothing if I got held over at work and they didn't make it, but for the silly shit like you are talking about, he is having a fit. It will go away don't even have to do what I did on it's own. Just a pain in the ass while it is happening. 

The dog can hear that you didn't really leave. I cannot believe you thought that would work. : )


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

<<<The dog can hear that you didn't really leave. I cannot believe you thought that would work. : )

on my video today , he is quiet for almost 10 min , after i left, then goes crazy , 
and he freaked out for 25 ion straight that i saw,( then my video ran out ..he had one break for under a min where he lyed down and was quiet then started again , 

i was thinking waiting it out too , but i just dont want it to be a issue, when he is older, 
and DEFFIANNLTY dont want a adult dog peeing in his cage,,, from stress


how long did that go on with Mint Jeff?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He is too young to handle himself yet. He gets in a mood, has a fit, and that is what you are seeing.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

my dog used to have these fits too- she never urinated in the crate, but she would try to destroy her cage. 

I also just ignored it, and it stopped after 5 months- she was just young and being stupid.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

well those 2 posts sound promising, i will relax a bit


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

It sounds like the pup spends alot of time in a crate, what are you up to now..12 ?? Hoarder :lol:


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I'll join in on the "wait it out" camp. Dogs of tenacity can be really tenacious about pitching a fit in the crate. You just have to outlast them...


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>It sounds like the pup spends alot of time in a crate, what are you up to now..12 ?? Hoarder

nope he doesnt spend alot of time in a crate, 

night time, 
when i am gone to work 4 times a week , during the day for 3- 5 hrs , and at class at night , he can go in there , but mostly is loose in a confined area, 
the rest were examples of times where he CAN go in his crate and is fine 
I am up to 9 dogs now, 
if you read the original email you would know , 
i got this dog from a fellow hoarder


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>It sounds like the pup spends alot of time in a crate, what are you up to now..12 ?? Hoarder
> 
> nope he doesnt spend alot of time in a crate,
> 
> ...


Hi
Tammy,

I see this differently than others here. I expect to see this resolve in 2-5 days, in my experience. Rather than leaving the dog to figure out how to cope with stressors and manage his own emotions (some don't and that is a needless waste in most cases), I lead them through exercises to learn to be calm on cue and to maintain that calm despite irritations and excitations. The long term rewards and benefits for owner and handler alike are huge. It can be so quick to do that I don't see any benefit to prolong the agony of cleaning up all that piss - but maybe that is just me.

Regards,
Kayce


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

My pup tried this "pee in the crate and she'll let me out" along with screaming and being a general pain in the ass.

First off, I showed him no attention when he'd sit and scream and be an asshole. At first I'd take him out of the crate if he pissed in there so I could bleach it out.Then I realized that peeing = freedom. 

So I ruined his day, because he was doing the same thing. I'd be gone 20 minutes and he'd be floating in the crate. I pulled out any towels/blankets so no absorbency and when he peed in the crate, he had to sit in it. Then I did what Jeff did, hose the crate out, pup and all and let him dry out in there. I think it took 2 or 3x of this happening before he decided that he wasn't going to get out even if he was saturated and I'd let him sit in there until he chilled out.

Also, how big is the crate he's in? If he can pee in it and stay out of it (without towels/blanket) then it's too big. If he has to sit and marinate in his own urine, he's going to not be ok with that.

It was a different ball game if I had left to go somewhere and got tied up longer than expected and he had an accident in there - that's MY fault. But a 3.5 month old puppy can certainly hold it longer than an hour or two at a time barring any medical issues.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>It sounds like the pup spends alot of time in a crate, what are you up to now..12 ?? Hoarder
> 
> nope he doesnt spend alot of time in a crate,
> 
> ...


What does loose in a confined area mean ? Confined but not toulouse ? :lol: 

"I am up to 9 dogs now"..... keep on truckin' maybe you can squeeze another in that crate.

Try freeing up some space in the house, maybe he's just gettin claustrophobic!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Also, how big is the crate he's in? If he can pee in it and stay out of it (without towels/blanket) then it's too big. If he has to sit and marinate in his own urine, he's going to not be ok with that.


If you believe that ^ you'll believe anything. 

Get him a companion to keep him company.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> .... Problem is every time i put him in a crate and leave he pees in his crate



And you are "emptying him out" (of excess energy as well as pee) before leaving? 

Exercised, tired, and two or three pee-stops on the way back inside?


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> If you believe that ^ you'll believe anything.
> 
> Get him a companion to keep him company.


Nah, seriously. Small crate where they have to marinate in their own pee generally isn't ok with most dogs - but if they can go pee in a corner and stay out of it, well...not so gross. 

Kind of like kids with diapers vs underwear. Kids learn not to pee in underwear because it's uncomfortable, but a diaper? They soak it up and keep their butts dry. Potty training 101


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Nah, seriously. Small crate where they have to marinate in their own pee generally isn't ok with most dogs - but if they can go pee in a corner and stay out of it, well...not so gross.


What does that tell you then ?

Who likes to shit (or pee in this case), in their own nest ?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>> I lead them through exercises to learn to be calm on cue and to maintain that calm despite irritations and excitations

how does that carry over to when i am gone, 
he is super calm in his crate any time i am around or sleeping , or at class with many distractions, 
he does not start freaking out that i am gone till about 10 min later after i have left


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>What does loose in a confined area mean ?

means a few expens put together . to make a big area.

And you are "emptying him out" (of excess energy as well as pee) before leaving? 


you bet! he pees on command and does go everytime right before i put him in , i make him go , and yes he is tired, never goes in there stung out, 

so on the good news front , i changed crates, ( first one had a greated floor ) he could pee and just hang out the rest of the day no issues, so why not 

i put him in a different crate, now 4 times, so far 3 out of 4 he has not peed in there, ONE time i put a blanket in there, he peed in it 

but the one time that i did video tape him , he did not pee in it that day , but freaked out the whole time, 
I was gone today dog sledding , from 12.30-5.00 
came back no pee, but he is loose now and DEAD tired , so i know he was freaking out, cuz he is not ever dead tired, lol

but sucess on the pee front , so hope that stays ,
and yes his crate is not big enough for him to get away from the pee in


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> What does that tell you then ?
> 
> Who likes to shit (or pee in this case), in their own nest ?


Mice do!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Good point. Rodents are dirty little mother****ers.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

how big is the pup and how big is the crate?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

he is a 26lbs dog in a 
30L 21W 24H

the crate is not the issue, I understand size of crate vs size of dog


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You got some nice comedic effect on this thread. Aren't you glad you asked ??

Cover trains her dogs to be calm, rhythmic, and soothing so that when they pee in the crate it only trickles out. The seriously assumptive training system teaches your rescue how to fart outside as well.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

jeff oehlsen said:


> you got some nice comedic effect on this thread. Aren't you glad you asked ??
> 
> Cover trains her dogs to be calm, rhythmic, and soothing so that when they pee in the crate it only trickles out. The seriously assumptive training system teaches your rescue how to fart outside as well.


lmao


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You got some nice comedic effect on this thread. Aren't you glad you asked ??
> 
> The seriously assumptive training system teaches your rescue how to fart outside as well.


Finally, something this old know-it-all needs to learn how to do. Is there going to be a seminar. Are there books, video, DVD's. Is someone posting a training video?

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sign me up too! The wife said she'll pay. :-k


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I would say set up the crate so that if he does pee he has to sit in it. If he's a clean pup that's certainly a motivator. (no towels, with a tray)

Do you ever put him in the crate as if you were to leave but stay? Sounds like the times he is in a crate while with you he can at least visually see you or knows where you are? Or at least he knows where you are and that gives him some security. Perhaps try putting him in the crate in a locked room while you're home? For some dogs that I know, that are otherwise fine in crates that's enough to set them off. 

Maybe try putting the crate in a different part of the house where he can see the door, then leave, come back within his threshold time, increase that time gradually?

I know you're mainly asking about the pee, but the fact he's freaking out makes me think some odd form of separation issue where he needs to learn to be independent in his crate while you're gone. Does he have contact in any way with the other dogs? Are they free range while he's in a crate?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

things have been really good since i switched his crate and took out any blankets, last night i was gone for 5 hrs ( longest yet) came home to no pee, I am very happy on that, I am sure he is still freeking out when i am gone, but hopefully that willl pass, 
the pee thing was a BIG issue, and seems to be solved...has not peed the past 5 times i have left him in it,,


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

> DFrost
> 
> How many of you believe in psycho-kenesis?
> Raise my hand.


I believe in psychokinesis. I can make Jeff Oehlsen post.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You got some nice comedic effect on this thread. Aren't you glad you asked ??
> 
> Cover trains her dogs to be calm, rhythmic, and soothing so that when they pee in the crate it only trickles out. The seriously assumptive training system teaches your rescue how to fart outside as well.


Hey Jeff,

I always ignore your comments because I can't take you seriously, as a trainer. I can't even imagine why you seem to crave my attention. You're not my type. 

Your blunt instrument approach to training is thought provoking. Well, maybe not so much. I don't just work with little doggies. Elephants, bears and rhinos, even horses (its so cute the way you always refer to me as training 'rescues')- well, let's say life is just more fun if I can train without being in a constant pissing contest with an animal. Oh, and clients like it better. They are not impressed to see a professional beat on an animal.

I am a specialist in training of people and animals, communication, and trainers. I am not caring to impress you, so I am not interested in sidelining my professional career to work in mondio ring. It is not what I do. If you cannot see where what I do might be useful to you, then it is not, and don't drop the pipe.

If you would like to see an example of my work, Steve Aibel trains killer whales for Sea World, San Antonio- right in your back yard. He got his start with me.

Power on,
Kayce


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Hey Kayce,

What is this, are you the mother of that gack gack girl ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbNbdtJA_0


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

What food is the dog eating?

Water type ?

Feeding and water schedule ?

Ever do a blood work up?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

What food is the dog eating?

eats wellness kibble 3 cups a day

Water type ? tap water in a bowl

Feeding and water schedule ? feeding 3X a day 1 cup each time ..water always available 

Ever do a blood work up? yes , all was good 

not sure if any of this pertains to him freaking out in the crate, as read above , the peeing seems to have stopped since i switched crates, and took blankets out of it


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> What food is the dog eating?
> 
> eats wellness kibble 3 cups a day
> 
> ...


Problem is every time i put him in a crate and leave he pees in his crate,


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

blankets allow him pee in the crate and shield himself from it...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Kayce Cover said:


> Hi
> Tammy,
> 
> I see this differently than others here. I expect to see this resolve in 2-5 days, in my experience. Rather than leaving the dog to figure out how to cope with stressors and manage his own emotions (some don't and that is a needless waste in most cases), I lead them through exercises to learn to be calm on cue and to maintain that calm despite irritations and excitations. The long term rewards and benefits for owner and handler alike are huge. It can be so quick to do that I don't see any benefit to prolong the agony of cleaning up all that piss - but maybe that is just me.
> ...


So how would you fix her problem ?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>Problem is every time i put him in a crate and leave he pees in his crate,

yes but i had posted a couple posts after saying the pee thing seems to be solved, but i am sure he is still freaking out when i am gone,


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Hey Kayce,
> 
> What is this, are you the mother of that gack gack girl ??
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbNbdtJA_0


Guilty as charged. This is me, demonstrating the speed of fluent 'intermediate bridging', and 'terminal bridging', or as most people seem to call it here, 'marking'. This particular example is "xxxxxxxxX", but any hard consonant sound is good.

This speed is almost 8 beats a second. That means, I can mark an increment of behavior within an 1/8th of a second, if I am on top of things. That can be a challenge, when the action is fast and changeable, but makes this a fantastic tool for protection sports, which are both.

The dog quickly learns to note both the bridges - or markers - and their absence. Thus, it is an immediate and gentle cue that allows the dog to self correct. By getting the dog mentally engaged, he becomes a more proficient learner as well. There is more, but that is a bit of explanation.

It is this fast marking that allowed me to get an oust from a schutzhund III dog in 15 minutes, even though he was 7 years old and had never cooperated in the past. I was able to mark the small increments of letting go. Thus the dog had many small successes, which led to larger and larger successes. It works kind of like hosing a pile of sand. At first, the progress is small. Then, suddenly, sand flows like a river, and the barrier is gone.

Best,
Kayce


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Well, thank God it's a complicated training manuever #-o I thought someone was just trying to make fun of you.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> So how would you fix her problem ?


The first thing I do is label things. I name crate, in, out, pee, clean, and most importantly a relaxed state, which I call "Easy", and its opposite, which I call "Alert". Any cue can be assigned, but these were chosen for well considered reasons.

I give the dog a running commentary on 'what is'. It might sound like this: "You are going in your crate. Good! Now you are in the crate. The crate is clean. Good dog.", or conversely, "Your crate is dirty. There is 'pee' in your crate. You are coming out. You are out of your crate while I clean it. Now your crate is clean. You are going in your crate now. You are in your crate. It is clean." Time invested so far: virtually nothing.

I would proceed to look in the crate frequently, and I would comment each time at how it was still clean and what a good dog he was. Time invested so far: still virtually nothing.

Meanwhile, I would do some actual training. I would get the dog to a truly relaxed state and name this state 'Easy'. As soon as he had a chance to really relax and experience 'Easy', I would clap my hands and change his emotional state to one of alert vigilance, which I would label 'Alert'. After I moment, I would request "Easy" again, using the Intermediate Bridge to mark his progression back to relaxation, getting more emphatic as he made particular efforts to relax, like licking, yawning, looking away, shutting eyes, softening his face, slowing his breathing, sighing, etc. I would continue working on these opposing states until the dog could toggle between them, on cue. This can take as little as 5 minutes, or as long as 4 hours. If a dog is dangerous to handle, it is likely to take longer initially, unless he is muzzled or otherwise managed to allow someone to use touch and massage to help him transition to relaxation. Time invested so far: 1/4 to 4 hours in most cases. I usually work straight through till I get this.

Once he can toggle between 'Easy' and 'Alert', then I start cycles. Cycles are a format for expanding a dog's ability to cope with stressors and manage his emotions. In this case, I would want the dog to be 'Easy' upon entering the crate, and maintain that state, even when I leave. The initial cycles would be 'ridiculously' short. That is, he is told he will go in his crate, he is to be 'Easy'. I then put him in , bridging his easy state, take him out, Terminal Bridge - and tell him how great he is for staying easy. I let him rest and think about his success. ('latent learning'). Of course, I did not even leave him. So, this was an EASY 'Easy' trial. 

However, the next trial is for two counts. The next is for 4. The next is for 8 (which you may recall is about a second). Each trial ends in an acknowledgement of his accomplishment and a short rest, approximate equal to the time of the trial. During the rest, he is to return to baseline relaxation, and the next trial does not start until he get's 'Easy' again. Time invested in this step: 10 minutes or less. Total time investment: 5 hours or less.

Now I start upping the ante on the cycles. I start to turn away from the dog - first for a second, then for 2, then for 4, etc. Again, every trial is punctuated with a rest and a return to 'Easy'. Time investment: Approximately 15 minutes per set of cycles.

Then I repeat, actually leaving the dog now - first for one instant, then two, then 4, etc.

I continue to work this way, gradually increasing the demands and distractions until the dog is good in his crate, indefinitely, regardless of what happens around him.

This is the short version but should be enough to get anyone started that is intent on testing my words. If you do test this, you are welcome to contact me for questions or more information.

I am well aware that many people do not think dogs capable of this level of understanding. The scientific perspective is to test it, and then draw conclusions.

I hope many will test this process.

Kayce


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Kayce
It is this fast marking that allowed me to get an oust from a schutzhund III dog in 15 minutes said:


> Your good, every sch III I have ever seen could not "oust" until at least 18. #-o


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

whoa, lol 
i think i will just wait it out instead, lol 
the pee thing seems to be done, and that was my MAIN issue, 
i think he will learn to calm down more when i am gone as time goes on ,
I DO however appreciate the advise , thank you ,


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Kayce Cover said:


> The first thing I do is label things. I name crate, in, out, pee, clean, and most importantly a relaxed state, which I call "Easy", and its opposite, which I call "Alert". Any cue can be assigned, but these were chosen for well considered reasons.
> 
> I give the dog a running commentary on 'what is'. It might sound like this: "You are going in your crate. Good! Now you are in the crate. The crate is clean. Good dog.", or conversely, "Your crate is dirty. There is 'pee' in your crate. You are coming out. You are out of your crate while I clean it. Now your crate is clean. You are going in your crate now. You are in your crate. It is clean." Time invested so far: virtually nothing.
> 
> ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Well, thank God it's a complicated training manuever #-o I thought someone was just trying to make fun of you.


No. I voluntarily insert myself into numerous ridiculous situations - in the name of science and training - and excellence, of course. Make that 'xxxxxxXcellence". To make matters worse, the x bridge was chosen for many good reasons, but when we first started speeding it up, it slurred into 'xxxxxxexsexsexsexsexX', which landed me and other trainers in a number of awkward situations. 

For example, I did a search for it once, and found this video of myself on a Brazilian football website that boasted being triple x rated. Hmmm...

This tool had a really definite purpose initially. At the University of Maryland, we did a research project to see if we could train the breeding herd of the swine unit to stand voluntarily for blood draw from the vena cava - which is a 5 inch deep, 'blind' (no visible land marks to tell you exactly where to make the stick). For the untrained pigs, this procedure was exceedingly stressful, and if we nicked a particular nerve, the pig drops dead. So... we needed a tool to get the pig to stand very, very still. For this, we tried breaking the time requirement into really small parts, so the pig got more feedback - in fact, as you see, he would - or could- get continuous feedback, if needed. Result: It took less than an hour, broken into 3-4 minute training sessions, 3-4 times a week, for about 2.5 weeks, to train a pig to do this voluntarily. We had one big problem: all the trained pigs wanted to be first to get their blood drawn. We had to teach them their names and to wait to be called for their turn.

Working with exotics, I have seen animals die for really stupid reasons - often related to stress. It can be a life saving gift to lead them to be able to cope with stress and their emotions. I don't mind sounding stupid for this purpose.

Best wishes,
Kayce


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Your good, every sch III I have ever seen could not "oust" until at least 18. #-o


 Minutes are money.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> whoa, lol
> i think i will just wait it out instead, lol
> the pee thing seems to be done, and that was my MAIN issue,
> i think he will learn to calm  down more when i am gone as time goes on ,
> I DO however appreciate the advise , thank you ,


Maybe it will actually be helpful in some future time , Tammy. Many protection sports dogs have real problems regulating themselves which can lead to other problems - both health and behavior related problems. Once the dog has the tools to self-regulate, life can be easier from then out - for both of you. 

Best wishes in your training and glad to hear that the worst may be behind you.

Kayce

Kayce


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Why the running commentary with the dog ?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Kayce Cover said:


> This tool had a really definite purpose initially. At the University of Maryland, we did a research project to see if we could train the breeding herd of the swine unit to stand voluntarily for blood draw from the vena cava - which is a 5 inch deep, 'blind' (no visible land marks to tell you exactly where to make the stick). For the untrained pigs, this procedure was exceedingly stressful, and if we nicked a particular nerve, the pig drops dead. So... we needed a tool to get the pig to stand very, very still. For this, we tried breaking the time requirement into really small parts, so the pig got more feedback - in fact, as you see, he would - or could- get continuous feedback, if needed. Result: It took less than an hour, broken into 3-4 minute training sessions, 3-4 times a week, for about 2.5 weeks, to train a pig to do this voluntarily. We had one big problem: all the trained pigs wanted to be first to get their blood drawn. We had to teach them their names and to wait to be called for their turn.


I used to raise pigs for food, about 6 a year..we had to find a way to keep them quiet when we were castrating them as piglets. 

What we came up with was sticking the pig in a plastic 5 galllon bucket head first while holding the rear legs, making a small incision and grabbing a testicle while feathering the attaching thingy with a scalpel and then a liberal dousing of betadine, worked great but we never had the opportunity to do it again so, I'll never know if they learned anything from the exercise.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> Why the running commentary with the dog ?


It works. 

It seems to fill a number of purposes:
1) Mentally engages the dog, which fills cell receptors with molecules of thought transmission, making them unavailable for dopamine reception - which helps to keep the dog rational and learning (see research of Candace Pert, such as the book "Molecules of Emotion" for more information)
2) Tells the dog what is happening, which allows him to prepare for being successfull. We can often take an untrained animal into a new situation and by using this process (dubbed 'Name & Explain') we can often get the behavior of a trained animal in a new and stressful situation. Most dogs already know the meanings of many words, it appears - before we go through and systematically define them.
3) Teaches dogs labels for events, items, locations, actions, etc. The dogs quickly learn that the label is paired in time with the item it names. They can quickly add words to their vocabulary just by routinely naming things in a systematic way. 

However, even if they don't understand a word I say, it still works. So, I do it. In my new booket, "TALK to me!", I give a story where we probably saved an animal's life through this process - even though I did not believe the animal got ANYTHING I told her. Apparently, I was wrong - and was glad to be wrong.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Tammy, It is not fair to turn your thread which is a good one to be turned into a pig pen. LOL


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Kayce Cover said:


> It works.
> 
> It seems to fill a number of purposes:
> 1) Mentally engages the dog, which fills cell receptors with molecules of thought transmission, making them unavailable for dopamine reception - which helps to keep the dog rational and learning (see research of Candace Pert, such as the book "Molecules of Emotion" for more information)
> ...


I have been a supporter of marker training and the like for some time now . Invested alot of time trying to get folks to believe it's a good tool to have in training dogs . It wears on me because many have such a negative view of it . Things like this are just too much . I'm done . The training I use out of it is going to be my dirty little secret from now on . It's a shame because much of it is so useful .


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

What i WILL take out of this advise is to NAME the RELAX times, so when he is chilled out i will name it , and hopfully be able to use it in the future


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> What i WILL take out of this advise is to NAME the RELAX times, so when he is chilled out i will name it , and hopfully be able to use it in the future


Well... in reading this and considering my chairlift ride issues, I have done some thinking. I have a relax command "easy". That said, she gets to a certain place in her head and it doesn't work so much for me. So, something I have not done is practiced switching between the "alert" and "easy" states on cue outside of my problem area. I had never considered naming the "alert" time.

My issue comes in chairlift ride which is a finite amount of time (7 min) and I can't just get off after 30 seconds of good behavior and work myself up to it. Going to practice on some benches or something. The other issue is that she does occasionally have to ride the lift and then she gets to practice the bad behavior I don't have sorted out yet.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The first thing I do is label things. I name crate, in, out, pee, clean, and most importantly a relaxed state, which I call "Easy", and its opposite, which I call "Alert". Any cue can be assigned, but these were chosen for well considered reasons.

I give the dog a running commentary on 'what is'. It might sound like this: "You are going in your crate. Good! Now you are in the crate. The crate is clean. Good dog.", or conversely, "Your crate is dirty. There is 'pee' in your crate. You are coming out. You are out of your crate while I clean it. Now your crate is clean. You are going in your crate now. You are in your crate. It is clean." Time invested so far: virtually nothing.

I would proceed to look in the crate frequently, and I would comment each time at how it was still clean and what a good dog he was. Time invested so far: still virtually nothing.

Meanwhile, I would do some actual training. I would get the dog to a truly relaxed state and name this state 'Easy'. As soon as he had a chance to really relax and experience 'Easy', I would clap my hands and change his emotional state to one of alert vigilance, which I would label 'Alert'. After I moment, I would request "Easy" again, using the Intermediate Bridge to mark his progression back to relaxation, getting more emphatic as he made particular efforts to relax, like licking, yawning, looking away, shutting eyes, softening his face, slowing his breathing, sighing, etc. I would continue working on these opposing states until the dog could toggle between them, on cue. This can take as little as 5 minutes, or as long as 4 hours. If a dog is dangerous to handle, it is likely to take longer initially, unless he is muzzled or otherwise managed to allow someone to use touch and massage to help him transition to relaxation. Time invested so far: 1/4 to 4 hours in most cases. I usually work straight through till I get this.

Once he can toggle between 'Easy' and 'Alert', then I start cycles. Cycles are a format for expanding a dog's ability to cope with stressors and manage his emotions. In this case, I would want the dog to be 'Easy' upon entering the crate, and maintain that state, even when I leave. The initial cycles would be 'ridiculously' short. That is, he is told he will go in his crate, he is to be 'Easy'. I then put him in , bridging his easy state, take him out, Terminal Bridge - and tell him how great he is for staying easy. I let him rest and think about his success. ('latent learning'). Of course, I did not even leave him. So, this was an EASY 'Easy' trial. 

However, the next trial is for two counts. The next is for 4. The next is for 8 (which you may recall is about a second). Each trial ends in an acknowledgement of his accomplishment and a short rest, approximate equal to the time of the trial. During the rest, he is to return to baseline relaxation, and the next trial does not start until he get's 'Easy' again. Time invested in this step: 10 minutes or less. Total time investment: 5 hours or less.

Now I start upping the ante on the cycles. I start to turn away from the dog - first for a second, then for 2, then for 4, etc. Again, every trial is punctuated with a rest and a return to 'Easy'. Time investment: Approximately 15 minutes per set of cycles.

Then I repeat, actually leaving the dog now - first for one instant, then two, then 4, etc.

I continue to work this way, gradually increasing the demands and distractions until the dog is good in his crate, indefinitely, regardless of what happens around him.

This is the short version but should be enough to get anyone started that is intent on testing my words. If you do test this, you are welcome to contact me for questions or more information.

I am well aware that many people do not think dogs capable of this level of understanding. The scientific perspective is to test it, and then draw conclusions.

I hope many will test this process.


Good God, that took longer to read through than the solution that stopped the peeing. 

Funny thing, I am attracted to bullshitters. Can't seem to stop making fun of them........ ever. However, on the drop of a post, I have made you regurgitate your credentials every time.

I could give a **** if you trained a whale or a rhino or a moose. The name of the forum is working DOG forum. If people followed your nonsense, the dogs would be dead before they ever got to trial.

I got a Sch dog to out as well. Whoopie doo.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Good God, ...Whoopie doo.





Kayce Cover said:


> I believe in psychokinesis. I can make Jeff Oehlsen post.


Hah! I called it. And now I am back to ignoring this eloquent advocate of pipe training.

Anything new is strange and unknown, by definition. If I tell zoo people that there are trainers who depend on e-collars and brute force to get a dog to do something, they can't see the point. Because, they deal with much bigger, faster, more dangerous animals and CANNOT use these tactics. So, they use other tactics, and they work. But these tactics sound strange to people here. But they work! 

I have worked both sides and can appreciate both sides. I don't speak against e-collars or prong collars or sharpened prong collars or decoys that act funny and dress up like the pillsbury dough boy (you think people in other sports don't think this is all strange?). I see the point of all of it - because I bother to look, and I see that there are some excellent, intelligent, dedicated trainers here. 

I don't care if anyone here wants to do any of these things, but I don't mind bringing an awareness that these tools exist - even if it brings heckling from the peanut gallery. Of course they seem strange. But in these novel tools and approaches, there may be aids that will make a difference to you and your dogs.

Power on - whether you are teaching the oust to doggies or ellies (of course we need a very dependable oust on an elephant).


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Kayce,
Do you go thru all that stuff to teach everything? I have to admit I don't get the constant talking thing, my KC would bite my face off to make me shut up, lol


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

*ski lift training*



Jennifer Coulter said:


> Well... in reading this and considering my chairlift ride issues, I have done some thinking. I have a relax command "easy". That said, she gets to a certain place in her head and it doesn't work so much for me. So, something I have not done is practiced switching between the "alert" and "easy" states on cue outside of my problem area. I had never considered naming the "alert" time.
> 
> My issue comes in chairlift ride which is a finite amount of time (7 min) and I can't just get off after 30 seconds of good behavior and work myself up to it. Going to practice on some benches or something. The other issue is that she does occasionally have to ride the lift and then she gets to practice the bad behavior I don't have sorted out yet.


Hi Jennifer,

Once the dog gets excited, they progressively lose the ability to think and be rational. So, the trick is to increase their ability to maintain the calm, despite challenge. Hence, the cycles. Whilst it may seem like a lot of steps, they are small, short and take little time. Meanwhile, the dog is building an experience of being successful at maintaining self control.

Toggling back and forth between calm and excitement ('Easy' and 'Alert') ensures that the dog actually knows what we are asking and is able to find her way there, on her own. Until that point, we cannot hold them accountable for maintaining self relaxation and management.

So. It is an important step. And the contrast between the two states helps the dog to understand what each state is - more easily than if they are taught seperately.

As far as the problem of getting on the lift and there being no way to end the cycle mid trip, etc. I face this problem when I prepare an animal for shipping, being with people, etc. I try to over train by at least 100 per cent BEFORE I put the dog to the test. So, if I need the dog to stand stock still for a medical procedure that takes 10 seconds, I go for 30 seconds of absolute control, under pain, with other people present, and smells of alcohol and all the other accoutrements of that particular procedure - and then some. If I am teaching an animal to travel calmly on a crate, or maybe on a ski lift, I make sure we do plenty of cycles with them on something I can lift and rock, and I work till they are fine for longer than I need for, in this case, the lift ride.

A lift has the element of height. A tree swing or bosun's seat might be a useful tool here. 

And, this is a case where keeping the animal mentally engaged can make a huge difference. If you keep the animal focused on you, it may very well totally forget to freak.

Good luck on it and I hope you'll update us on what you find.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Kayce,
> Do you go thru all that stuff to teach everything? I have to admit I don't get the constant talking thing, my KC would bite my face off to make me shut up, lol


I do, Al. But it is really fast, and I am not asking you to do it. But, since I claimed fast results and I was asked how I would solve the problem, I give the more advanced protocol. 

If you simply name important things, and mark success and failure, AND good attempts (the Intermediate Bridging), you will experience some fantastic things and then maybe you will quit there, or maybe you will be ready to take on some additional tools. 

Your choice. 

Every time you train.

For me - I am actually quiet and reserved by nature. I became extroverted and communicative when training, because that brings me my best results. But other times, I go back to being quite and reserved. The important thing is, my nature does not limit my effectiveness as a trainer. I can now choose which tools I will use and how I will use them. So, if you start this, and decide it does not work for you, you can quit using these tools. Simple as that. Nothing to lose. Maybe..... MAYBE, something to gain. Something to try and test.

Happy training.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

I don't buy what she is selling. It belongs in the classified section.


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