# KNPV: Dogs & Training Comparison Q



## David Ruby

This is something that has been brought up, indirectly or otherwise, and struck my interest. It sounds like KNPV dogs are trained under more stress than most other sports or trainers, or that on some level the basic philosophy of the training/work is different. Being curious of such things, and suspecting I'm not the only one who is interested in these questions, here are a few for those inclined;

1) KNPV Training w/ KNPV-lined Dogs: Do you think your dogs need, or thrive, on the pressure? I am wondering both if they need very heavy hands to maintain your status above them as well as if you feel the pressure helps force them to develop somehow that is beneficial to the sport or their post-sport police dog careers?

2) Is there any place to sort of see a/o get an explanation of the training? I'd just be interested in videos or (English/translatable) articles as far as the thinking/philosophy, just the goals with said training methods as well as how (generally) it is executed. This is just for my own interest, not so I can pretend I'm a KNPV trainer or anything.

3) KNPV Dogs Outside KNPV: I know a few of you have KNPV-lined dogs, a/o work them in non-KNPV events (SchH, PSA, maybe a few Ring people out there). I am curious:* How you might have had to adjust training (e.g. if you had to go from more of a motivational/reward-based training to a firmer style [or not] and the like).

* How different dogs trained outside of the KNPV-style differed in how they developed from KNPV-trained dogs. Just wondering how two similar littermates might develop differently between say Dick & Selena, and somebody like Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, or any of the dozens of great or widely known trainers I don't know about or have heard about and am blanking on that use more of a motivational slant to training. And;

* If there are any quirks or interesting things about KNPV-line dogs (imported green dogs or totally trained outside of the KNPV-style) when they work in non-KNPV sports/jobs/events.​Just figured the subject of KNPV comes up ever so often (dogs & sport), there are a few of you who have experience in one way or another, and I believe there are others who might be curious to where this is not solely a self-serving thread.

-Cheers


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## Alice Bezemer

Well i will get back to you on the questions but ill post a few trial vids of my dog and a few others i trained with so you can get the general idea on what we try to achieve...ill see if i can find a few training vids as well


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## Alice Bezemer

posted the vids here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...g-casper-fellow-clubmembers-16798/#post213549


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Geee, couldn't you ask something far more simple? It isn't easy to explain in dutch, and my english really isn't sufficient for this

At first: a good dog is a good dog, in which venue it will be trained.

-trainingstyle and dog: you can't say (like any other trainingvenue) that THIS is the way to do something. Also here there is a great vary in trainingstyles and type of dog.

You need bonding & respect from your dog, absolute ob. It can be hard, but not dishonest to a dog. Black/white to the extremes. Dogs should be hard on their body & mind to cope with suspects. If a dog in an actual aprhension (sp?) is hurt/kicked whatever, you don't want a dog who is running away ...

- explanation: I know the guys who visited us have a bit better idea now, but it is so hard to explain it only on screen. Search for the vids Tim Stacey made while he was over here to pick up his puppy. Maybe it helps.

If there is a real training issue or a really difficult dog, there will be no viewers...at least with Dick there won't.

- the real good trainers will transfer her trainingsprinciples at any dog, but will vary in their methods to achieve it.

My dad was KNPV champion & dutch champion IPO in the same year, and had big prizes in both for several years in a row. With different types of dog FCI pedigree mali vs KNPV mali in different venues. His trainingbuddies in both venues also had championsships or prizes in those years, as top result my stephmum world champion IPO. All with the same trainingprinciple.


ps: if anybody wonders why I still am a nOOb..look in what kind of world I grew up in and who's my husband, will never catch up with their experience ;-)


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## Alice Bezemer

David Ruby said:


> This is something that has been brought up, indirectly or otherwise, and struck my interest. It sounds like KNPV dogs are trained under more stress than most other sports or trainers, or that on some level the basic philosophy of the training/work is different. Being curious of such things, and suspecting I'm not the only one who is interested in these questions, here are a few for those inclined;
> 
> 1) KNPV Training w/ KNPV-lined Dogs: Do you think your dogs need, or thrive, on the pressure? I am wondering both if they need very heavy hands to maintain your status above them as well as if you feel the pressure helps force them to develop somehow that is beneficial to the sport or their post-sport police dog careers?
> 
> *A) Well speaking for myself i feel that yes they need and yes they thrive on the pressure exacted on them during training as well as in working situations....simple fact is that first of the dogs are bred with a certain plan in mind...the plan mostly being that they can endure what happens to them in forms of pressure or pain or a tight situation...they are bred to be self confident, flamable (for lack of a better word) and persistance...we sell our dogs to all sorts of authorities to mostly be used in situations where the dog can expect to get an asskicking if its bringing down an assailant...its of no use if the dog gets that asskicking and decides " well that SUCKED, lets not let that happen again" and to see your dog take of in the opposite direction of the assailant...the dog has to be able to endure pain and pressure...better yet it has to think to itself..." well damn! hurt me you fker ? your ass is mine!" Its a black and white view and its not a view we can deviate from coze you need to understand that since these dogs are bred to own that extra bit of temper and character and that they will not hesitate to bring the fight to you if you show even an ounce of indecision of pussyfooting around when it comes to training them. *
> 
> 2) Is there any place to sort of see a/o get an explanation of the training? I'd just be interested in videos or (English/translatable) articles as far as the thinking/philosophy, just the goals with said training methods as well as how (generally) it is executed. This is just for my own interest, not so I can pretend I'm a KNPV trainer or anything.
> 
> *A) well im working on several translations of articles at the moment, Im also working on translating the my clubs website so if you can hang on that long im sure you will find plenty of info there. Perhaps if my time permits ill put up a post about general KNPV training on forum...will take some time but you will see it when its ready
> 
> *
> 3) KNPV Dogs Outside KNPV: I know a few of you have KNPV-lined dogs, a/o work them in non-KNPV events (SchH, PSA, maybe a few Ring people out there). I am curious:* How you might have had to adjust training (e.g. if you had to go from more of a motivational/reward-based training to a firmer style [or not] and the like).
> 
> * How different dogs trained outside of the KNPV-style differed in how they developed from KNPV-trained dogs. Just wondering how two similar littermates might develop differently between say Dick & Selena, and somebody like Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, or any of the dozens of great or widely known trainers I don't know about or have heard about and am blanking on that use more of a motivational slant to training. And;
> 
> * If there are any quirks or interesting things about KNPV-line dogs (imported green dogs or totally trained outside of the KNPV-style) when they work in non-KNPV sports/jobs/events.​Just figured the subject of KNPV comes up ever so often (dogs & sport), there are a few of you who have experience in one way or another, and I believe there are others who might be curious to where this is not solely a self-serving thread.
> 
> -Cheers


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## jack van strien

i think it basicly boils down to you adjusting the type of training to fit the dog and not the other way around.
You do not put more pressure on the dog then needed and you react to the dog and his needs.
Like it is said before,a good dog can be succesful in any kind of work.You do not need to have an agressive kind of dog perse,a lot of very sociable dogs can turn into real serious biters when the need arises.


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## leslie cassian

David Ruby said:


> 3) KNPV Dogs Outside KNPV: I know a few of you have KNPV-lined dogs, a/o work them in non-KNPV events (SchH, PSA, maybe a few Ring people out there). I am curious:* How you might have had to adjust training (e.g. if you had to go from more of a motivational/reward-based training to a firmer style [or not] and the like).
> 
> 
> * If there are any quirks or interesting things about KNPV-line dogs (imported green dogs or totally trained outside of the KNPV-style) when they work in non-KNPV sports/jobs/events.​Just figured the subject of KNPV comes up ever so often (dogs & sport), there are a few of you who have experience in one way or another, and I believe there are others who might be curious to where this is not solely a self-serving thread.
> 
> -Cheers


Speaking from very little experience, but here goes. I started schutzhund with my Mal and then got Trevva, my DS from Logan Haus last summer. I'm training her more or less the same way I trained the Mal, though I know a bit more now and I'm with a different club, so a slightly different style of training, but more or less my usual slacker style of going about things with a lot of motivational and marker work at this point. 

As for the protection work, she is progressing as she should. There is a huge range of dogs in my club - everything from easy going showline GSDs to really good working line dogs and a couple of off breed dogs as well. Training is tweaked for each dog as they come out to work. I'm lucky in that the club TDs have a good read on the dogs and on how they need to be worked to move forward. Some days training is more serious, some days it's more fun. Keeps it interesting for all involved. 

There's a video of my dog. If I knew how to link to the thread I posted it in, I would, but its under Trevva - bitework. Nothing special and the handling is a bit of a clown show, but you can see what a knpv dog training in schutzhund looks like.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

there are 2 puppies bred by us in the US. Both Kristin as Garth are on this board, maybe they chime in.


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## Jack Roberts

I do have a couple of questions for some of the KNPV trainers.

How much air snapping (teeth clacking) do you get when you start putting heavy compulsion on your dogs? 

I mean by compulsion when you start to use the pinch/choker with more pressure on the dog to conform. In other words, the dog is not doing what you want in an exercise and you make it black and white with the pincher/chocker what is expected.

Another question:

How many times have you had a dog come up the leash when applying heavy pressure? I am sure that it happens at least once with most every dog, especially when you are putting heavy pressure on a dog. 

I know from my own training that you can drive a dog to come up a leash with enough pressure, especially a dog that does not wilt under correction but instead gets pissed. Personally, I think you have gone too far or too quick when a dog comes up a leash, but am interested in hearing what you have to say about a dog coming up a leash.


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## Alison Grubb

Nice post!
I am interested to hear the responses.


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## jack van strien

My dog was kind of soft in ob exercises,when it came to bitework he was a totally different dog but he never came to bite me,i guess he knew better.For me the most pressure i had to put on him was making him wait for the stick attack.He had some anger building up inside him for sure but he took it out on the decoy!He got even with me on the recall exercise and made it an all out attack.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

depends on if you have the dog from 7 wks old. A dog will be a bit more sensitive to you than when you bought a (young) adult.

No snapping (only clothe damage), bruises or holes yes. If you start training their first reaction to a correction (sometimes even on the flat) will be telling you they don`t like to be corrected. Also learning to be corrected is part of training.


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## Martine Loots

David Ruby said:


> It sounds like* KNPV dogs are trained under more stress than most other sports* or trainers, or that on some level the basic philosophy of the training/work is different. Being curious of such things, and suspecting I'm not the only one who is interested in these questions, here are a few for those inclined;


No offense, but I think it's wrong to say that.

Each sport trains and breeds for the goals they PERSONALLY have to achieve.
So it's up to you to decide what you want and what your goals are.

You need a dog to do the KNPV work, then get one from KNPV lines. They know what they want and their dogs are bred to have the traits they need and for the way they train.
Other lines, ok you can try but the KNPV lines are specialized so they will give the best results.

You want to train Ring? OK, then you have to take a dog from good ring lines. They are bred to have the traits needed for Ring and the ring lines will give you the best dogs.

Pressure? Both sports put just as much pressure for the dogs but in different ways. A KNPV dog isn't made to do Ring and a Ring dog isn't made to do KNPV. Of course there are dogs that can do both but in general you better stick to the lines that are specialized.
A lot of KNPV dogs won't survive tough ring training and a lot of Ring dogs aren't fit to do KNPV.


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## John Campbell

I would love to hear more about genetic predisposition for the different sports. i can understand the FCI vs KNPV but im not really grasping the Ring vs KNPV in genetics. i dont see how a dog could be predisposed for a certain type of bitework/agility/focus required for one sport but would not be for the same skills used/trained in a different way in another. i could understand a debate about the level of dog required to complete in a sport being different but i cant see how a high end ring dog couldnt be a high end KNPV/SCH dog due to its genetics?


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## Martine Loots

John Campbell said:


> I would love to hear more about genetic predisposition for the different sports. i can understand the FCI vs KNPV but im not really grasping the Ring vs KNPV in genetics. i dont see how a dog could be predisposed for a certain type of bitework/agility/focus required for one sport but would not be for the same skills used/trained in a different way in another.* i could understand a debate about the level of dog required to complete in a sport being different but i cant see how a high end ring dog couldnt be a high end KNPV/SCH dog due to its genetics*?



It's difficult to explain.

First of all the dog needs to have a certain level of quality to compete in ANY sport. 

But next to that quality, every sport requires different traits.

For IPO/SCH the punctual obedience and constant focus on the handler is very important. Jumps are easy and bitework exercises always are the same. It's not really the exercises that are difficult, but the *perfection *of the performance. So you need a dog with a big will to please and strong focus on the handler. 

KNPV produces* police dogs*. Dogs that work as a team with the handler. Jumping isn't hard. Important is that they are confident and brave towards intruders. But the perfection of the work is less demanding.
Of course there has to be control and the dog has to out when he's told so, but who cares if he comes out after 1sec or after 3sec? Also in a trial all exercises are done separately, with time in between, and they don't have to compete almost every week, so it's easier to keep the control and not "burn" the dog.

Ring competition requires to compete at least every 2 weeks or more and all exercises are done one after the other non stop, which means you have to go very deep to keep control over the dog. No time in between to repair control issues. Dogs are bred with focus on* stress resistance from the handler and athletism* because the jumps are very heavy. Dogs also have to deal with different circumstances during each trial.

But when you look at each program separately, then in each one there will be different types of dogs too.
I know very high scoring ring dogs that would be no good at all for KNPV and I'm sure it's the same the other way round.
And a real strong dog will survive in both, but he'll perform best in the program he was bred for.


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## Timothy Stacy

This is my first DS and from Van Leuween lines. I'm noticing huge differences in how I need to change my style to fit this dog. There is absolutely no way I can train this dog the way I did my malinois. His pain tolerance is super high and he's not afraid of shit and he's more into pleasing himself, not me ! I'm starting to see why Dick and Selena don't start bite work until they are a year old. I can even see with my little experience I have that this dog will only REALLY come out when his aggression comes out when he's mature. If a dog like this gets locked in prey and only worked in prey type work he will be to confident for his aggression to ever come out, don't know if that makes sense and if its what I'm trying to explain! I guess I'm saying they feed off the fight and aggrssion although he does have prey drive.


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## Candy Eggert

Hi Martine,

May I say that I agree without having any exposure to either KNPV or BR? I have a young Malinois who's pedigree is full of Belgian Ring, FR, KNPV, NVBK. Not one Schutzhund titled dog in the whole pedigree ](*,) Might not have been the best choice for my choosen sport but I love his character  He loves the fight ;-)


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## Jack Roberts

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> depends on if you have the dog from 7 wks old. A dog will be a bit more sensitive to you than when you bought a (young) adult.
> 
> No snapping (only clothe damage), bruises or holes yes. If you start training their first reaction to a correction (sometimes even on the flat) will be telling you they don`t like to be corrected. Also learning to be corrected is part of training.



Hi Selena,

I agree about learning to be corrected is part of training. I am using correction here when the compulsion gets heavy for a dog to do something. The dog is set in his/her ways and is not doing what is asked. You increase the pressure to gets compliance.

I meant by air snapping that the teeth start clacking. I know what you mean about getting holes in the clothes or bruises. This usually comes from the air snapping or clacking and you are in the way. I consider these my fault.

I often wonder that when the clacking gets more intense with vocalization, if this is not a warning from the dog that it will come up the leash. 

I am not talking about air snapping or clacking when the dog is excited over a toy or a decoy. This seems to be a natural reaction or genetic in the Malinois. 

I am referencing air snapping when compulsion is used with a corrective collar, pinch, chocker, or electric. I think it is a different clacking than what you see with a dog excited over a prey object. It seems to be more intense with louder vocalizations.

I am interested in hearing what those who use more compulsion in dogs think of this behavior, intense clacking of the teeth with intense vocalization, when using compulsion with a dog. Is it a warning sign that the dog is in too high state of stress or is it just an angry dog?


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## Timothy Stacy

Also, I don't have any real experience with a dog coming up the line but with a dog who doesn't want to be told what to do and the handler starts to make him do it(applying pressure). It's easy to see where this dog will eventually come at me when compulsion is applied he will be pissed! Guess it's bound to bring out some aggression in the wrong direction! Dog with lots of aggression and not afraid of anybody being forced to do something he doesn't feel like doing?


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## Martine Loots

Jack Roberts said:


> I am referencing air snapping when compulsion is used with a corrective collar, pinch, chocker, or electric. I think it is a different clacking than what you see with a dog excited over a prey object. It seems to be more intense with louder vocalizations.
> 
> I am interested in hearing what those who use more compulsion in dogs think of this behavior, intense clacking of the teeth with intense vocalization, when using compulsion with a dog. Is it a warning sign that the *dog is in too high state of stress* or is it just an angry dog?


It's a sign of stress for sure. If he would be really angry then he wouldn't be clacking his teeth but bite without hesitating.

If you don't deal with the behaviour immediately then it will get worse and in the end he'll bite you.


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## Timothy Stacy

Nice to hear the warning signs Jack


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## John Campbell

Martine Loots said:


> It's difficult to explain.
> 
> First of all the dog needs to have a certain level of quality to compete in ANY sport.
> 
> But next to that quality, every sport requires different traits.
> 
> For IPO/SCH the punctual obedience and constant focus on the handler is very important. Jumps are easy and bitework exercises always are the same. It's not really the exercises that are difficult, but the *perfection *of the performance. So you need a dog with a big will to please and strong focus on the handler.
> 
> KNPV produces* police dogs*. Dogs that work as a team with the handler. Jumping isn't hard. Important is that they are confident and brave towards intruders. But the perfection of the work is less demanding.
> Of course there has to be control and the dog has to out when he's told so, but who cares if he comes out after 1sec or after 3sec? Also in a trial all exercises are done separately, with time in between, and they don't have to compete almost every week, so it's easier to keep the control and not "burn" the dog.
> 
> Ring competition requires to compete at least every 2 weeks or more and all exercises are done one after the other non stop, which means you have to go very deep to keep control over the dog. No time in between to repair control issues. Dogs are bred with focus on* stress resistance from the handler and athletism* because the jumps are very heavy. Dogs also have to deal with different circumstances during each trial.
> 
> But when you look at each program separately, then in each one there will be different types of dogs too.
> I know very high scoring ring dogs that would be no good at all for KNPV and I'm sure it's the same the other way round.
> And a real strong dog will survive in both, but he'll perform best in the program he was bred for.


what you decribe here seems like training issues not genetics. the traits that you decribe that the dog requires seem like traits that all working dogs are breed for. now a well preforming ring dog may be breed because of his high level of these traits but a knpv dog is also breed for the same traits. drive focus stress resistance athletism ect. without a high level of these traits training at a competative level for any sport would be impossible. i realize that high scoring ring dogs may not be good at knpv but if one of their offspring was trained in KNPV from the start would it not be any good due to its genetics.


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## Jack Roberts

It seems to me that when you have a strong willed dog and confident dog that the best option for training is not to use strong compulsion. There are other much better methods such as removing rewards. I am not talking about light corrections or standard correction but problems that involve willfulness on the dog's part. 

I agree with Tim that when you keep coming down on a harder dog, the dog will come up on the handler eventually.

I feel like it is a training mistake when a dog comes up a leash. I have been guilty of it in the past when pushing a dog too hard. I ended up having to use the collar and leash to keep the dog away. It was not a pretty sight but I knew that I had to win the fight.

After the incident with that dog, I reflected on what had happened and realized I could have approached the problem in a different way. I had deliberately chosen to pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight. 

It seems like compulsion can be used on a softer dog with not that many problems. Compulsion with a strong willed, high pain tolerance, and confident dog is not as productive method of training in my opinion.

I do not have the training experience or working knowledge of Martine but would really like to explore some of the methods for training stronger dogs. Stronger dogs are those do not wilt under correction more prone as younger pups to high possessiveness and willingness to bite handler as young pup over toys or trying to get their way. There are young pups that will lay into you. You have to teach them respect but this is the type of animals that I am referencing to as a strong dog. It seems like these traits in strong dogs show early in the pup's life.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Martine Loots said:


> It's a sign of stress for sure. If he would be really angry then he wouldn't be clacking his teeth but bite without hesitating.
> 
> If you don't deal with the behaviour immediately then it will get worse and in the end he'll bite you.


yes thank you Martine, that was what i was trying to say. Our own dogs aren't very vocalizing as mals sometimes can be and it that way give you an accidental nip.
If you hear a clack it was because i was faster as the dog.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Jack, you're right there are other methods, but it will not secure (wrong word choice, for lack of a better) the wanted behavior in police practice. He have chance of nasty situations of instead of doing a search you'll have a civil bite or so.

Forcing of behavior makes that that behavior will be dispayed if the boss told the dog to do so. With a confident, high pain tolerant, dominant dog you have to use other methods.


But I have a bet for you: take Wibo to KNPV trail and you earn a 1000 euro.


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## Martine Loots

John Campbell said:


> *what you decribe here seems like training issues not genetics. the traits that you decribe that the dog requires seem like traits that all working dogs are breed for*. now a well preforming ring dog may be breed because of his high level of these traits but a knpv dog is also breed for the same traits. drive focus stress resistance athletism ect. without a high level of these traits training at a competative level for any sport would be impossible. i realize that high scoring ring dogs may not be good at knpv but if one of their offspring was trained in KNPV from the start would it not be any good due to its genetics.


No, it's not a training issue.

I've seen it happen so many times already. Handlers (some of them very experienced) try dogs from good bloodlines of another sport and it just doesn't work.

I know for sure that most dogs out of our bloodlines aren't ideal for IPO because many aren't the will to please type of dog and hard to handle.
They could be good KNPV dogs but then again they're not really social and they are "one handler dogs" which would be an issue.

I'm not saying at all that KNPV dogs aren't stress resistant, because they need to be to work the streets. But this is a different type of stress then the constant mental pressure that is needed to compete in ring.
On the other hand I also know ring dogs that can handle the mental stress from the handler very well but couldn't handle the stress of working the streets.

I also tried it. Had a dog from good KNPV lines (Bono Pegge son) some years ago and he was a real good dog. Strong character but social, good grip and jumps. All went well up to a certain level when he could do the whole program, but to get a perfect performance we still needed to improve some details.
When I whistled him out, it always took 2sec for him to let go and come back (but for me 2 sec means 2 points so I didn't want him to do that). Also on the object guard he didn't always wait until the decoy was in the inner circle, but in stead he bit in the second circle (which also cost 2 points).
So we increased pressure and then he melted away. If I allowed him these imperfections then his work was impressive but I didn't want to compete with a dog that loses points on the out each time.
So I didn't keep him because he couldn't take the mental pressure.
It wasn't a training issue because I've seen the same thing happen with a number of other dogs coming from other program bloodlines. Just didn't want to believe it until I experienced it myself...

But this didn't mean he was a bad dog. He was very strong and I would have trusted my life to him without hesitating but this wasn't what I'd bought him for.
He's working the streets now, so he's doing what he was bred for from the beginning and doing a very good job at it. His handler is very satisfied with him.


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## Martine Loots

Jack Roberts said:


> *It seems to me that when you have a strong willed dog and confident dog that the best option for training is not to use strong compulsion.* There are other much better methods such as removing rewards. I am not talking about light corrections or standard correction but problems that involve willfulness on the dog's part.


With a very strong dog you'll have a conflict sooner or later, because he'll try you out for sure and if you don't win the "battle" then, then you are lost.
That's why it's difficult to take over an adult dog with a handler aggressive character because then you'll have to be very strong to win his respect.

So it's better to have this type of dog as a pup. If you raise him correctly and he has respect for you then it will be easier to stay in control.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Timothy Stacy said:


> This is my first DS and from Van Leuween lines. I'm noticing huge differences in how I need to change my style to fit this dog. There is absolutely no way I can train this dog the way I did my malinois. His pain tolerance is super high and he's not afraid of shit and he's more into pleasing himself, not me ! I'm starting to see why Dick and Selena don't start bite work until they are a year old. I can even see with my little experience I have that this dog will only REALLY come out when his aggression comes out when he's mature. If a dog like this gets locked in prey and only worked in prey type work he will be to confident for his aggression to ever come out, don't know if that makes sense and if its what I'm trying to explain! I guess I'm saying they feed off the fight and aggrssion although he does have prey drive.


 
we understand what you mean, but you now see how difficult it is to explain our type of dog, certainly for me/ us if english isnt your mothertongue..


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## Jack Roberts

Martine Loots said:


> With a very strong dog you'll have a conflict sooner or later, because he'll try you out for sure and if you don't win the "battle" then, then you are lost.
> That's why it's difficult to take over an adult dog with a handler aggressive character because then you'll have to be very strong to win his respect.
> 
> So it's better to have this type of dog as a pup. If you raise him correctly and he has respect for you then it will be easier to stay in control.


I would agree about having this type of dog as a puppy. It is much easier fighting with a 6-8 month old dog than a grown dog. 

It seems like to me that the stronger dogs are more willing to try you out sooner as puppies. I have noticed it with willful disobedience or aggressive displays over what they want to do versus what you want them to do. I think these type of dogs are more one owner dogs.

Dog you referenced above that did not out soon enough:

This is a good example why we need different breeding dogs for a different applications. It does come down to what you want out of the dog. It seems like the softer handler dogs may make the better competitor dogs compared to the harder dominant dogs, which may make the better police dog or personal protection dog.

I do think that most strong dogs will test you. I am not saying that this is not a reality. It has to be dealt with and usually harsh and calm enough where the dog will not test again.

Excessive Pressure:

I do think it is a mistake to use excessive pressure on a strong dog for compliance or a problem in training. I have noticed that the outthinking the dog is much better than pure force. There can be other options instead of using excessive force to get compliance. I like to think of it as the dog thinking it is in his best interest to do what you want.

Testing handler:

This is a place where strong force has to be used on a dog, especially with a dog just testing you out of dominance.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Timothy Stacy said:


> This is my first DS and from Van Leuween lines. I'm noticing huge differences in how I need to change my style to fit this dog. There is absolutely no way I can train this dog the way I did my malinois. His pain tolerance is super high and he's not afraid of shit and he's more into pleasing himself, not me ! I'm starting to see why Dick and Selena don't start bite work until they are a year old. I can even see with my little experience I have that this dog will only REALLY come out when his aggression comes out when he's mature. If a dog like this gets locked in prey and only worked in prey type work he will be to confident for his aggression to ever come out, don't know if that makes sense and if its what I'm trying to explain! I guess I'm saying they feed off the fight and aggrssion although he does have prey drive.


I totally understand!;-)

It is very hard to explain to others.

Just wait a year. That's when it gets really fun.:lol:


----------



## Martine Loots

Jack Roberts said:


> It does come down to what you want out of the dog..


Completely agree



Jack Roberts said:


> It seems like the softer handler dogs may make the better competitor dogs compared to the harder dominant dogs, which may make the better police dog or personal protection dog..


Don't agree here. I understand what you mean and it could be so for low level competition but when you get to the difficukt trials with much environmental + decoy pressure then a soft dog won't do.
Also depends on the type of handler you are.
My husband for instance needs a very hard, strong dog and he prefers a handler aggressive type. Any other type of dog won't survive the dominance of his personality and the pressure he puts in his training.
But for myself, I don't want a handler aggressive dog because I physically can't handle that but I don't want a soft dog either.
Important is to find a dog that matches your personality.



Jack Roberts said:


> I do think that *most strong dogs will test you*. I am not saying that this is not a reality. It has to be dealt with and usually harsh and calm enough where the dog will not test again..


They all will :wink:



Jack Roberts said:


> I do think it is a mistake to use excessive pressure on a strong dog for compliance or a problem in training. I have noticed that the* outthinking the dog is much better than pure force*. There can be other options instead of using excessive force to get compliance. I like to think of it as the dog thinking it is in his best interest to do what you want.
> 
> Testing handler:
> 
> This is a place where strong force has to be used on a dog, especially with a dog just testing you out of dominance.


Agree with you here. It's much better to avoid a conflict but with a strong dog you'll have to face it sooner or later. 
You can feel it coming and when that happens, you have to be prepared.
Therefore, when we sense there will be a conflict soon, then we deliberately create one. Difference then is that we're prepared and the dog isn't which makes it easier.

Our experience with our dogs is that they try it for the first time at about 6mths of age.


----------



## David Ruby

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> *Geee, couldn't you ask something far more simple?* It isn't easy to explain in dutch, and my english really isn't sufficient for this


 Maybe. But what fun would that have been?  Your answer made sense though.



Alice Bezemer said:


> *A) well im working on several translations of articles at the moment, Im also working on translating the my clubs website so if you can hang on that long im sure you will find plenty of info there. Perhaps if my time permits ill put up a post about general KNPV training on forum...will take some time but you will see it when its ready
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *




That would be cool. I can wait! But yeah, I'd definitely be interested in reading your write-up.



leslie cassian said:


> Speaking from very little experience, but here goes. I started schutzhund with my Mal and then got Trevva, my DS from Logan Haus last summer. I'm training her more or less the same way I trained the Mal, though I know a bit more now and I'm with a different club, so a slightly different style of training, but more or less my usual slacker style of going about things with a lot of motivational and marker work at this point.
> 
> As for the protection work, she is progressing as she should. There is a huge range of dogs in my club - everything from easy going showline GSDs to really good working line dogs and a couple of off breed dogs as well. Training is tweaked for each dog as they come out to work. I'm lucky in that the club TDs have a good read on the dogs and on how they need to be worked to move forward. Some days training is more serious, some days it's more fun. Keeps it interesting for all involved.
> 
> There's a video of my dog. If I knew how to link to the thread I posted it in, I would, but its under Trevva - bitework. Nothing special and the handling is a bit of a clown show, but you can see what a knpv dog training in schutzhund looks like.


Thanks Leslie. I'm presuming it's the video under this topic?
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/trevva-bitework-16552/

Cool, and best of luck with her!

-Cheers


----------



## David Ruby

Martine Loots said:


> No offense, but I think it's wrong to say that.


None taken whatsoever. Your subsequent posts made a lot of sense as far as what you were talking about.

-Cheers


----------



## John Campbell

Martine Loots said:


> No, it's not a training issue.
> 
> I've seen it happen so many times already. Handlers (some of them very experienced) try dogs from good bloodlines of another sport and it just doesn't work.
> 
> I know for sure that most dogs out of our bloodlines aren't ideal for IPO because many aren't the will to please type of dog and hard to handle.
> They could be good KNPV dogs but then again they're not really social and they are "one handler dogs" which would be an issue.
> 
> I'm not saying at all that KNPV dogs aren't stress resistant, because they need to be to work the streets. But this is a different type of stress then the constant mental pressure that is needed to compete in ring.
> On the other hand I also know ring dogs that can handle the mental stress from the handler very well but couldn't handle the stress of working the streets.
> 
> I also tried it. Had a dog from good KNPV lines (Bono Pegge son) some years ago and he was a real good dog. Strong character but social, good grip and jumps. All went well up to a certain level when he could do the whole program, but to get a perfect performance we still needed to improve some details.
> When I whistled him out, it always took 2sec for him to let go and come back (but for me 2 sec means 2 points so I didn't want him to do that). Also on the object guard he didn't always wait until the decoy was in the inner circle, but in stead he bit in the second circle (which also cost 2 points).
> So we increased pressure and then he melted away. If I allowed him these imperfections then his work was impressive but I didn't want to compete with a dog that loses points on the out each time.
> So I didn't keep him because he couldn't take the mental pressure.
> It wasn't a training issue because I've seen the same thing happen with a number of other dogs coming from other program bloodlines. Just didn't want to believe it until I experienced it myself...
> 
> But this didn't mean he was a bad dog. He was very strong and I would have trusted my life to him without hesitating but this wasn't what I'd bought him for.
> He's working the streets now, so he's doing what he was bred for from the beginning and doing a very good job at it. His handler is very satisfied with him.


Thanks this is why i came here

learning has accured.


----------



## Christopher Smith

John Campbell said:


> learning has accured.


A new WDF classic.


----------



## maggie fraser

Wot's accured


----------



## Erik Berg

Martine Loots said:


> I'm not saying at all that KNPV dogs aren't stress resistant, because they need to be to work the streets. But this is a different type of stress then the constant mental pressure that is needed to compete in ring.
> On the other hand I also know ring dogs that can handle the mental stress from the handler very well but couldn't handle the stress of working the streets.
> 
> I also tried it. Had a dog from good KNPV lines (Bono Pegge son) some years ago and he was a real good dog. Strong character but social, good grip and jumps. All went well up to a certain level when he could do the whole program, but to get a perfect performance we still needed to improve some details.
> When I whistled him out, it always took 2sec for him to let go and come back (but for me 2 sec means 2 points so I didn't want him to do that). Also on the object guard he didn't always wait until the decoy was in the inner circle, but in stead he bit in the second circle (which also cost 2 points).
> So we increased pressure and then he melted away. If I allowed him these imperfections then his work was impressive but I didn't want to compete with a dog that loses points on the out each time.


What do the ring-dogs that do well in ring lacks that make them unsuited for the street, if a good KNPV/street-dog can fail in ring due to mental pressure from the handler? Do you mean the ringdogs are trained with the same handlerpressure or that you had to put more pressure on the KNPV-dog due to his character that you didn´t have to do with the general ringdogs, and therefore they "survive" the training due to the fact they didn´t need the same pressure to be trained to perfection? Or is the ringdogs that are not suited for the street trained with the same level of handlerpressure that the KNPV-dog you mentioned was?


----------



## Jim Engel

One of the things not mentioned, unless I missed it, is the extremely
long distances in the protection work, and the extreme distance from
the handler for the call off.

My opinion is that this is a severe test for the dog, & when a dog
has a problem you can just seem them weaken with every step.

I was at a trial a few years ago where one handler with a slight
limp actually used a bicycle to come up to where he was supposed
to stand to out his dog.


----------



## Martine Loots

Erik Berg said:


> What do the ring-dogs that do well in ring lacks that make them unsuited for the street, if a good KNPV/street-dog can fail in ring due to mental pressure from the handler? Do you mean the ringdogs are trained with the same handlerpressure or that you had to put more pressure on the KNPV-dog due to his character that you didn´t have to do with the general ringdogs, and therefore they "survive" the training due to the fact they didn´t need the same pressure to be trained to perfection? Or is the ringdogs that are not suited for the street trained with the same level of handlerpressure that the KNPV-dog you mentioned was?


The dog I was talking about got less pressure then the dogs we usually work with, since we couldn’t push it till the end. He couldn’t take it.
When we had to increase the stress, he supported that but not anymore when we had to do it over and over again. Then he did his work but without any charisma and he often hesitated

It’s difficult to explain exactly as I would want to because English isn’t my mother tongue, but I’ll give it a try.

I said “some” ring dogs are not suitable for street work. 
A strong ring dog will work the streets without any problem. In fact any strong dog can do that no matter what sport he was bred for.

But fact is that not all dogs that compete (no matter what discipline) are strong dogs. A lot can be achieved with good training and patience and this makes that also weaker dogs can get very good results.
In NVBK this exists more and more too (which I personally think is a shame). It’s true that this type of dog will fail when the s*** hits the fan in a real tough trial, but this kind of trials is getting rare too, so it’s very possible to get a high ranking with a weaker character dog.

The trait I described as “resistance to mental stress from the handler” doesn’t really have to do with “strong character”, because it’s a trait that can be found as well with strong dogs as with weaker ones.
It means they should be able to work in “automatic pilot mode” no matter what happens. They should “work like machines that you can wind up and unwind but never break”.
When you have to punish hard, the dog has to respond to that but immediately after that he has to be ready to do his job again with the same drive. 
If he surrenders right away then you are lucky, but mostly this isn’t the fact (especially with a strong dog) and the process has to be repeated over and over again until he does. And the dog has to keep on going with the same pleasure in his work.
On top of that there is the fact that you have to compete very often to keep the high ranking and to qualify for the championship and each time all exercises have to be performed one after the other without pause, so you can’t afford to let the dog “breathe and relax” from time to time.
It’s this constant pressure that makes a lot of dogs mentally collapse and melt away, so the resistance to that is a very important quality we want to see in a dog.

I’m sure KNPV dogs get the same punishments as ours, but the difference is that they don’t have to compete that often so the work can be done gradually towards the competition. They can go very deep with punishment during one training and then leave the dog alone for a few days. Give him some time to “think it over”. That’s the way we would do it too if the competition schedule would allow it. 
And when they compete, they don’t have to do all exercises continuously one after the other. Between each exercise they have spare time that will come in very handy to repair control issues. I’m sure the ones with strong dogs will admit it wouldn’t be evident to do their exercises one after the other non stop. Would sure give issues with dogs getting in overdrive too.

Both KNPV and NVBK produce strong dogs, but in their breeding program both sports will focus on the traits that are needed for their specific discipline. 
In the selection of a good dog, the handler will first of all want the strong character but next to that he’ll look for the specific traits needed for his sport.
I practice BR so next to strong character I’ll look for that stress resistance but I’m sure KNPV handlers will also look for specific qualities needed for their sport.


----------



## Martine Loots

Jim Engel said:


> One of the things not mentioned, unless I missed it, *is the extremely*
> *long distances in the protection work, and the extreme distance from*
> *the handler for the call off.*
> 
> My opinion is that this is a severe test for the dog, & when a dog
> has a problem you can just seem them weaken with every step.
> 
> I was at a trial a few years ago where one handler with a slight
> limp actually used a bicycle to come up to where he was supposed
> to stand to out his dog.


 
I didn't talk about that indeed, because I don't see that as a test for the dog. If he can't do that then he wasn't good enough right from the start. I think the long attacks are one of the things the dogs enjoy most.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Martine Loots said:


> If he can't do that then he wasn't good enough right from the start. I think the long attacks are one of the things the dogs enjoy most.


And not just the toughest of dogs  I don't think that at the place I'm training the decoys would waste any time on any dog that wouldn't be capable of doing that.


----------



## Jack Roberts

Martine Loots said:


> The dog I was talking about got less pressure then the dogs we usually work with, since we couldn’t push it till the end. He couldn’t take it.
> When we had to increase the stress, he supported that but not anymore when we had to do it over and over again. Then he did his work but without any charisma and he often hesitated
> 
> It’s difficult to explain exactly as I would want to because English isn’t my mother tongue, but I’ll give it a try.
> 
> I said “some” ring dogs are not suitable for street work.
> A strong ring dog will work the streets without any problem. In fact any strong dog can do that no matter what sport he was bred for.
> 
> But fact is that not all dogs that compete (no matter what discipline) are strong dogs. A lot can be achieved with good training and patience and this makes that also weaker dogs can get very good results.
> In NVBK this exists more and more too (which I personally think is a shame). It’s true that this type of dog will fail when the s*** hits the fan in a real tough trial, but this kind of trials is getting rare too, so it’s very possible to get a high ranking with a weaker character dog.
> 
> The trait I described as “resistance to mental stress from the handler” doesn’t really have to do with “strong character”, because it’s a trait that can be found as well with strong dogs as with weaker ones.
> It means they should be able to work in “automatic pilot mode” no matter what happens. They should “work like machines that you can wind up and unwind but never break”.
> When you have to punish hard, the dog has to respond to that but immediately after that he has to be ready to do his job again with the same drive.
> If he surrenders right away then you are lucky, but mostly this isn’t the fact (especially with a strong dog) and the process has to be repeated over and over again until he does. And the dog has to keep on going with the same pleasure in his work.
> On top of that there is the fact that you have to compete very often to keep the high ranking and to qualify for the championship and each time all exercises have to be performed one after the other without pause, so you can’t afford to let the dog “breathe and relax” from time to time.
> It’s this constant pressure that makes a lot of dogs mentally collapse and melt away, so the resistance to that is a very important quality we want to see in a dog.
> 
> I’m sure KNPV dogs get the same punishments as ours, but the difference is that they don’t have to compete that often so the work can be done gradually towards the competition. They can go very deep with punishment during one training and then leave the dog alone for a few days. Give him some time to “think it over”. That’s the way we would do it too if the competition schedule would allow it.
> And when they compete, they don’t have to do all exercises continuously one after the other. Between each exercise they have spare time that will come in very handy to repair control issues. I’m sure the ones with strong dogs will admit it wouldn’t be evident to do their exercises one after the other non stop. Would sure give issues with dogs getting in overdrive too.
> 
> Both KNPV and NVBK produce strong dogs, but in their breeding program both sports will focus on the traits that are needed for their specific discipline.
> In the selection of a good dog, the handler will first of all want the strong character but next to that he’ll look for the specific traits needed for his sport.
> I practice BR so next to strong character I’ll look for that stress resistance but I’m sure KNPV handlers will also look for specific qualities needed for their sport.


This is an excellent post, especially explaining the stress levels that a dog has to endure in a sport. It seems like the Belgium Ring dogs need more endurance to compete. 

I do agree that a good dog should be able to do any sport.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Timothy Stacy said:


> This is my first DS and from Van Leuween lines. I'm noticing huge differences in how I need to change my style to fit this dog. There is absolutely no way I can train this dog the way I did my malinois. His pain tolerance is super high and he's not afraid of shit and he's more into pleasing himself, not me ! I'm starting to see why Dick and Selena don't start bite work until they are a year old. I can even see with my little experience I have that this dog will only REALLY come out when his aggression comes out when he's mature. If a dog like this gets locked in prey and only worked in prey type work he will be to confident for his aggression to ever come out, don't know if that makes sense and if its what I'm trying to explain! I guess I'm saying they feed off the fight and aggrssion although he does have prey drive.







Selena van Leeuwen said:


> we understand what you mean, but you now see how difficult it is to explain our type of dog, certainly for me/ us if english isnt your mothertongue..




interesting, dont know if it has ever occurred to me that being too confident would ever be a bad thing


----------



## Matt Grosch

John Campbell said:


> I would love to hear more about genetic predisposition for the different sports. i can understand the FCI vs KNPV but im not really grasping the Ring vs KNPV in genetics. i dont see how a dog could be predisposed for a certain type of bitework/agility/focus required for one sport but would not be for the same skills used/trained in a different way in another. i could understand a debate about the level of dog required to complete in a sport being different but i cant see how a high end ring dog couldnt be a high end KNPV/SCH dog due to its genetics?




correct me if Im wrong, but it seems pretty strait forward to me, if you had to compare it to (american) football and rugby, both sports would require tough, athletic guys to excel, but there are differences and an individual might do better at one or the other, if they started to have kids with similar females soon those differences would become somewhat standardized and general variations could be observed....it is that simple?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> And when they compete, they don’t have to do all exercises continuously one after the other. Between each exercise they have spare time that will come in very handy to repair control issues. I’m sure the ones with strong dogs will admit it wouldn’t be evident to do their exercises one after the other non stop. Would sure give issues with dogs getting in overdrive too.


This is the biggest weakness of KNPV IMO. This makes a huge difference in the type of dogs and training the sport produces.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Christopher Smith said:


> This is the biggest weakness of KNPV IMO. This makes a huge difference in the type of dogs and training the sport produces.





but apparently, it does not make a difference for real world police/military work or they wouldnt be doing it


----------



## David Feliciano

Matt Grosch said:


> but apparently, it does not make a difference for real world police/military work or they wouldnt be doing it


Yes it does make a difference. Not all departments and handlers like or use dutch dogs. Different types of dogs for different handlers, uses, and training.

Think about what you just said Matt. If it didn't make a difference why WOULD they be doing it?

The point being: breeding dogs to excel in different sports produces different types of dogs.


----------



## Matt Grosch

never saw a benefit and found it more convenient to break things up instead of doing event after event?



and yeah, you might find a cop somewhere that wants a showline GSD, but that wouldnt mean that the KNPV structure produces weaknesses for work that he is avoiding


----------



## Matt Grosch

"The point being: breeding dogs to excel in different sports produces different types of dogs."



So then the question becomes which sport is most similar to real work? (Just like which martial art is best for real fighting grasshopper)


----------



## Martine Loots

Matt Grosch said:


> but apparently, it does not make a difference for real world police/military work or they wouldnt be doing it


Agree. 
It doesn't make a difference for a police dog and that's why they don't focus their breeding program on these traits. 
Same thing as for BR we don't need the flashy obedience IPO requires so we don't need to focus on that type of dog. We need other qualities, specifically for ring.

That's what I wanted to say with "each discipline requires another type of dog"


----------



## David Feliciano

Matt Grosch said:


> So then the question becomes which sport is most similar to real work? (Just like which martial art is best for real fighting grasshopper)


It depends on the type of work. The same way martial arts training depends on the rules of the fight. You know as well as I do that UFC rules are a different animal than Gracie rules no time limit, no holds barred, and no judges fight.

Do you want to be doing military work with a dog that needs its ass whooped every five god damn minutes?


----------



## David Ruby

David Feliciano said:


> Yes it does make a difference. Not all departments and handlers like or use dutch dogs. Different types of dogs for different handlers, uses, and training.


That makes sense. To be fair though, I do hear there are at least a decent number of Depts. that use Dutch dogs. Of course, there also seems to be a decent number that strongly prefer a good German Shepherd.



> Think about what you just said Matt. If it didn't make a difference why WOULD they be doing it?
> 
> The point being: breeding dogs to excel in different sports produces a different type of dog.


There is a valid point there. Feel free to point out the holes in my logic, however:

1) It seems like the "why WOULD they be doing it" would be because people see & prioritize things differently. Heck, that's even in the sport within the same country. I see what you are saying.

2) Unless I am mistaken, KNPV is the only sport that is really just meant as a test for soon-to-be Police Dogs. It _should_ be the best test for that sort of niche. If you feel it is not, I would be curious why (unless it's just different handlers' abilities/preferences/etc.). The rest you can compete for competition sake, not necessarily with the goal to sell dogs that pass or place them in a PD/security setting. I would bet there are dogs that are on K9 units that are trained/titled in other sports (I'm aware of K9 dogs that have more-or-less FR or MR foundations a/o titles, I'd be surprised if there weren't some SchH trained ones), but that is not currently their main goal.

-Cheers


----------



## David Feliciano

David Ruby said:


> That makes sense. To be fair though, I do hear there are at least a decent number of Depts. that use Dutch dogs. Of course, there also seems to be a decent number that strongly prefer a good German Shepherd.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a valid point there. Feel free to point out the holes in my logic, however:
> 
> 1) It seems like the "why WOULD they be doing it" would be because people see & prioritize things differently. Heck, that's even in the sport within the same country. I see what you are saying.
> 
> 2) Unless I am mistaken, KNPV is the only sport that is really just meant as a test for soon-to-be Police Dogs. It _should_ be the best test for that sort of niche. If you feel it is not, I would be curious why (unless it's just different handlers' abilities/preferences/etc.). The rest you can compete for competition sake, not necessarily with the goal to sell dogs that pass or place them in a PD/security setting. I would bet there are dogs that are on K9 units that are trained/titled in other sports (I'm aware of K9 dogs that have more-or-less FR or MR foundations a/o titles, I'd be surprised if there weren't some SchH trained ones), but that is not currently their main goal.
> 
> -Cheers


I'm not trying to point out flaws in the program or say which breed I think is better for police work. I have a friend who is a handler for CHP in Los Angeles. His dog gets bites every single day and is a single purpose dog. He has needed to send his dog on people the police shot and killed to make sure they were no longer a threat (ie his dog bites dead people). He needs a skud missle of a dog and prefers dutch bred dogs. He has also had to wash out several pups for being too handler aggressive and has better success raising belgian dogs.

The city I live in (Cypress) wouldn't even know what to do with a dog like this. It would be a huge liability to their department. It all depends on the work


----------



## David Ruby

Matt Grosch said:


> "The point being: breeding dogs to excel in different sports produces different types of dogs."
> 
> 
> 
> So then the question becomes which sport is most similar to real work? (Just like which martial art is best for real fighting grasshopper)


I'd guess both (as in dog sports & Martial Arts) have all had their roots in real work/fighting if you look back far enough. But they evolve and change.

From there it's probably up to the teacher/trainer/sensei. If you think about it, you could take tournament style Judo or Boxing (at least technique-wise) and effectively defend yourself or fight very well. The training a/o "rules" would be different between competition and actual lifelike settings. Hence Bas Rutten's UFC training is a bit different than the tactics from his self-defense videos. It probably also explains why BJJ has evolved straight from Judo but with very notable differences.

-Cheers


----------



## David Feliciano

Its also work mentioning that arguably the BEST dog Mike Suttle (forum dutchie guru) has had in his kennel was Nierlenders Endor (A BELGIAN DOG)


----------



## Timothy Stacy

I think your right about it be a bad choice for a first time handler and your also right that most delta aren't using their dogs for biting. In many cases the drug work is more important. However if I were in the military I think I'd take dicks dogs over most for a combat type situation.


----------



## David Ruby

David Feliciano said:


> I'm not trying to point out flaws in the program or say which breed I think is better for police work.


No sweat. Just trying to get a bit more where you are coming from as far as the different dogs/lines/sports/etc.



> I have a friend who is a handler for CHP in Los Angeles. His dog gets bites every single day and is a single purpose dog. He has needed to send his dog on people the police shot and killed to make sure they were no longer a threat (ie his dog bites dead people). He needs a skud missle of a dog and prefers dutch bred dogs. He has also had to wash out several pups for being too handler aggressive and has better success raising belgian dogs.
> 
> The city I live in (Cypress) wouldn't even know what to do with a dog like this. It would be a huge liability to their department. It all depends on the work


Gotcha!

-Cheers


----------



## Timothy Stacy

I was impressed by the whooping a'tim took in that korung 3 but not all BR dogs would have stuck it out and I'm not sure how many of his offspring would(don't want to get into that either). The big diffence is that Dick is breeding dogs who love that shit and feed off of it. I honestly think most dogs in general would give up if a 230 pound man is kicking there ass especially a 55 pound dog. His dogs are extremely strong and their bite Is dibilitating(spelling)


----------



## Guest

David Feliciano said:


> Its also work mentioning that arguably the BEST dog Mike Suttle (forum dutchie guru) has had in his kennel was Nierlenders Endor (A BELGIAN DOG)


 
Are you sure that was a BELGAIN DOG????? :-&


----------



## David Feliciano

Timothy Stacy said:


> I was impressed by the whooping a'tim took in that korung 3 but not all BR dogs would have stuck it out and I'm not sure how many of his offspring would(don't want to get into that either). The big diffence is that Dick is breeding dogs who love that shit and feed off of it. I honestly think most dogs in general would give up if a 230 pound man is kicking there ass especially a 55 pound dog. His dogs are extremely strong and their bite dibilitating(spelling)


I'd LOVE to see some of these KNPV dogs get through a DMC Korung!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could see it now

LOS LOS LOS LOS

FAIL!


----------



## David Feliciano

Jody Butler said:


> Are you sure that was a BELGAIN DOG????? :-&


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/belgian_malinois/pedigree/504019.html

assuming this pedigree is legit...


----------



## Guest

David Feliciano said:


> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/belgian_malinois/pedigree/504019.html
> 
> assuming this pedigree is legit...


 
Hmmm, there was a thread on that all by itself.....


----------



## David Feliciano

Jody Butler said:


> Hmmm, there was a thread on that all by itself.....


Missed it! Cliff notes? link?


----------



## Guest

David Feliciano said:


> Missed it! Cliff notes? link?


Here is one of them....
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/where-waldo-endor-15741/


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Its fun to see/read everyone has an opinion about KNPV and training, but do not know shit about it....:evil:

Dick


----------



## David Feliciano

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Its fun to see/read everyone has an opinion about KNPV and training, but do not know shit about it....:evil:
> 
> Dick


FACTS

Perfect scores are more common in KNPV than IPO or ringsports

KNPV trials have breaks in between exercises


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Feliciano said:


> I'd LOVE to see some of these KNPV dogs get through a DMC Korung!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I could see it now
> 
> LOS LOS LOS LOS
> 
> FAIL!



and you would know this since you have trained for years and years with KNPV dog and did KNPV trials....its always nice to see the voice of authority speak up...i just knew i was doing something wrong with my dogs and the KNPV training...thank you David for opening my eyes


----------



## David Feliciano

Alice Bezemer said:


> and you would know this since you have trained for years and years with KNPV dog and did KNPV trials....its always nice to see the voice of authority speak up...i just knew i was doing something wrong with my dogs and the KNPV training...thank you David for opening my eyes


Actually I have a crystal ball. It shows me what dogs on the verge of control do when their handlers can't whoop that ass between exercises.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Feliciano said:


> Actually I have a crystal ball. It shows me what dogs on the verge of control do when their handlers can't whoop that ass between exercises.


that would almost be funny dear ! if it hadent come from you to begin with 

your statement alone tells howmuch you actualy know about what you are talking about...

if it wasnt so silly i might be persuaded to take offence...thank the lord i have a sence of humor huh


----------



## David Feliciano

We have something similar to KNPV here in the states. Its called PSA. :lol::grin::smile:=P~:!:


----------



## Matt Grosch

disclaimer- I still have relatively little experience, and dont know if I have ever seen a BR working police K9, but in working with and watching the police dept's around me train, the two that stand out are the small one that flies guys out to holland to pick up their dogs, and the larger one that only buys titled KNPV dogs from adlerhorst.......very clear distinction


was going to say varisty to JV, but it might even be varsity to freshmen/pop warner


the outs and control on some of them arent great, but why sweat the small stuff


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Feliciano said:


> We have something similar to KNPV here in the states. Its called PSA. :lol::grin::smile:=P~:!:




from what Ive gathered that seems to be what is recommended in the US since KNPV isnt available (need someone like Jason Farish/etc to comment on that)


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Alice Bezemer said:


> that would almost be funny dear ! if it hadent come from you to begin with
> 
> your statement alone tells howmuch you actualy know about what you are talking about...
> 
> if it wasnt so silly i might be persuaded to take offence...thank the lord i have a sence of humor huh


It is common knowledge, Alice, if "friend" David starts to react in a topic, this topic is lost. And not because of his positif attitude.
"je wordt alijd door een strontkar overreden" zeggen we in Amsterdam....;-)

Dick


----------



## David Feliciano

Matt Grosch said:


> from what Ive gathered that seems to be what is recommended in the US since KNPV isnt available (need someone like Jason Farish/etc to comment on that)


From what I've gathered it attracts similar dogs and handlers as well


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Feliciano said:


> We have something similar to KNPV here in the states. Its called PSA. :lol::grin::smile:=P~:!:


Similar ? well damn ! then you must be alllll informed on the hows and whats...i stand corrected again David...I didnt know that KNPV in the Netherlands is the exact same as PSA in the states.....how do you cope david ? Being this allknowing...doesnt your head hurt ? you poor thing...i feel for you hunny, would yoiu like me to send you a bottle of tylenol so your head doesnt explode ! I can only hope that one day i am as smart and allknowing as you are...then the world will truelly be a better place for all of us !


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> It is common knowledge, Alice, if "friend" David starts to react in a topic, this topic is lost. And not because of his positif attitude.
> "je wordt alijd door een strontkar overreden" zeggen we in Amsterdam....;-)
> 
> Dick


snap m helemaal...gewoon effe lachen nu...

jij zegt strontkar, zeg ik....stupid people need no help to show the world how stupid they are...they do a fine job themselves


----------



## mike suttle

David Feliciano said:


> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/belgian_malinois/pedigree/504019.html
> 
> assuming this pedigree is legit...


remember what happens when you ASS U ME something??
Endor is a great dog. He is one of the one that i really miss having around here. But dont put much thought into that pedigree David.
He is a Dutch dog, through and through, inside and out, top and bottom.


----------



## David Feliciano

Alice Bezemer said:


> Similar ? well damn ! then you must be alllll informed on the hows and whats...i stand corrected again David...I didnt know that KNPV in the Netherlands is the exact same as PSA in the states.....how do you cope david ? Being this allknowing...doesnt your head hurt ? you poor thing...i feel for you hunny, would yoiu like me to send you a bottle of tylenol so your head doesnt explode ! I can only hope that one day i am as smart and allknowing as you are...then the world will truelly be a better place for all of us !


Maybe your Engrish needs work.

Similar and same are not synonyms


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Matt Grosch said:


> disclaimer- I still have relatively little experience, and dont know if I have ever seen a BR working police K9, but in working with and watching the police dept's around me train, the two that stand out are the small one that flies guys out to holland to pick up their dogs, and the larger one that only buys titled KNPV dogs from adlerhorst.......very clear distinction
> 
> 
> was going to say varisty to JV, but it might even be varsity to freshmen/pop warner
> 
> 
> the outs and control on some of them arent great, but why sweat the small stuff


ok i get that but why make a generalization of the whole then ? coze i know if i give my dog the OUT the will spit that bloody decoy across the field...and not coze i beat the shit out of him which is again a generalization of what KNPV dogs and trainers are....just coze im blond doesnt mean every woman in my town is  see my point ? its called training...and if someone buys a dog that doesnt out as quickly as he would like then why buy it to start with...thats not a dog or trainer problem, thats a buyer stupidity...but thats my .12 cts


----------



## David Feliciano

mike suttle said:


> remember what happens when you ASS U ME something??
> Endor is a great dog. He is one of the one that i really miss having around here. But dont put much thought into that pedigree David.
> He is a Dutch dog, through and through, inside and out, top and bottom.


What was the point of the fake papers?


----------



## David Ruby

Alice Bezemer said:


> how do you cope david ? Being this allknowing...doesnt your head hurt ? you poor thing...i feel for you hunny, would yoiu like me to send you a bottle of tylenol so your head doesnt explode ! I can only hope that one day i am as smart and allknowing as you are...then the world will truelly be a better place for all of us !


Different David, and I'm not all-knowing, but if you're sending some things to the States, how about a nice dog and a few bottles of Westvleteren 12? Sure, it's a Belgian beer, but you can't get that stuff over here in the States and your countries border each other. If you're going to export something, might as well make it worth it! Plus, with the dog it'll keep anybody from stealing the Westy on the plane ride over and the Tylenol could help for the morning after! 

-Cheers


----------



## Jim Engel

David Feliciano said:


> We have something similar to KNPV here in the states. Its called PSA. :lol::grin::smile:=P~:!:


David, I am going to be absolutely serious here for a moment.

If you ever want to be taken seriously, never, ever, say anything
like that again.


----------



## David Feliciano

Alice Bezemer said:


> Similar ? well damn ! then you must be alllll informed on the hows and whats...i stand corrected again David...I didnt know that KNPV in the Netherlands is the exact same as PSA in the states.....how do you cope david ? Being this allknowing...doesnt your head hurt ? you poor thing...i feel for you hunny, would yoiu like me to send you a bottle of tylenol so your head doesnt explode ! I can only hope that one day i am as smart and allknowing as you are...then the world will truelly be a better place for all of us !





Alice Bezemer said:


> ....just coze im blond


explained


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Feliciano said:


> Maybe your Engrish needs work.
> 
> Similar and same are not synonyms



are you still here ? OMG shouldnt you be polishing up on things you know absolutly nothing about dear ?

hurry David....go forth and get educated....theres a whole world of things you know nothing about that requires your immediate attention....i promise if something comes up here that requires your outstanding input i will call you back so you can educate us all in the error of our lowly ways...

now run allong.....


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Ruby said:


> Different David, and I'm not all-knowing, but if you're sending some things to the States, how about a nice dog and a few bottles of Westvleteren 12? Sure, it's a Belgian beer, but you can't get that stuff over here in the States and your countries border each other. If you're going to export something, might as well make it worth it! Plus, with the dog it'll keep anybody from stealing the Westy on the plane ride over and the Tylenol could help for the morning after!
> 
> -Cheers


LoL I forgot the F for feliciano sorry bout that but im sure you understood it wasnt directed at you but at the peewee herman wannabe on forum


----------



## Matt Grosch

Hey everyone, look at this video of Darth Vader played by Arnold Schwarzenegger


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKEg6fJ-7P4


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Matt Grosch said:


> Hey everyone, look at this video of Darth Vader played by Arnold Schwarzenegger
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKEg6fJ-7P4


LMFAO to funny...talk about taking a completely different turn in a topic...your my hero matt  feel free to do it again :mrgreen:


----------



## David Ruby

Alice Bezemer said:


> LoL I forgot the F for feliciano sorry bout that but im sure you understood it wasnt directed at you but at the peewee herman wannabe on forum


Yeah, I understood. Not a problem!

-Cheers


----------



## Alice Bezemer

On the topicchanging note...

wanna see a REAL good dog ? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw4W1b3fzXc

and he aint even KNPV :-o (but im training my next dog to do the exact same thing)

How about it David *F* ? wanna bring your dog to my house for a beer ? :lol:


----------



## David Feliciano

We have already established that the biggest purpose of titling a dog in KNPV is to resell it as a police dog.

It would make sense that the better the dog scores the more valuable he will be. There are a shit ton of perfect scores in KNPV in comparison to other dog sports.

High scores = higher value dog + a very small community. If this isn't a recipe for corruption, I don't know what is


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

*mod note*

knock it off.

David F, if you can't contribute, but only stir the pot, please forget this topic exist. It was a nice one 'till you came around.


----------



## David Ruby

mike suttle said:


> remember what happens when you ASS U ME something??
> Endor is a great dog. He is one of the one that i really miss having around here. But dont put much thought into that pedigree David.
> He is a Dutch dog, through and through, inside and out, top and bottom.


Handsome fella too! He sounds like a lot of fun, personality-wise. I've only seen a few videos, but he is a nice looking dog to watch.

Anyway, if you feel comfortable chatting it, how differently do you train your dogs from more prototypical-American SchH style vs. Hollander/KNPV-style? Have you incorporated anything from either in your personal approach to dogs? Or should I just drive down to WV sometime you have a seminar?

-Cheers


----------



## David Feliciano

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> *mod note*
> 
> knock it off.
> 
> David F, if you can't contribute, but only stir the pot, please forget this topic exist. It was a nice one 'till you came around.



WTF did I do? Disagree with you?


----------



## Matt Grosch

Alice Bezemer said:


> your my hero matt  feel free to do it again :mrgreen:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

David Feliciano said:


> WTF did I do? Disagree with you?


If you don't know read back a few pages. I wasn't online, otherwise i've said something earlier.

the knock it off was for all involved.


----------



## mike suttle

David Ruby said:


> Handsome fella too! He sounds like a lot of fun, personality-wise. I've only seen a few videos, but he is a nice looking dog to watch.
> 
> Anyway, if you feel comfortable chatting it, how differently do you train your dogs from more prototypical-American SchH style vs. Hollander/KNPV-style? Have you incorporated anything from either in your personal approach to dogs? Or should I just drive down to WV sometime you have a seminar?
> 
> -Cheers


We concentrate 90% of our training into simply preparing "green" dogs for selection testing. I put way more effort in building hunt/retrieve drive and search patterns. We prepare the dogs for muzzle work, we teach them how to target on a suit, we do a lot of environmental exposure, some tracking, a little basic obedience. We dont put target odor on any dog here usually, no final response, no out, no formal control work. I like to get my dogs climbing on shit like monkeys, hunting and retrieving like idiots, and biting like crazy, I let the agencies put the control on the dogs that they see fit.


----------



## David Ruby

mike suttle said:


> We concentrate 90% of our training into simply preparing "green" dogs for selection testing. I put way more effort in building hunt/retrieve drive and search patterns. We prepare the dogs for muzzle work, we teach them how to target on a suit, we do a lot of environmental exposure, some tracking, a little basic obedience. We dont put target odor on any dog here usually, no final response, no out, no formal control work. I like to get my dogs climbing on shit like monkeys, hunting and retrieving like idiots, and biting like crazy, I let the agencies put the control on the dogs that they see fit.


I was actually wondering about your personal dogs (I thought or heard you competed in SchH) and if you were able to sort of draw from both wells, so to speak. That said, the above sounds logical for just getting the green dogs to be cool doing anything & everything.

-Cheers


----------



## David Feliciano

For the KNPV experts. Why are there so many perfect scores in KNPV?


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Ruby said:


> I was actually wondering about your personal dogs (I thought or heard you competed in SchH) and if you were able to sort of draw from both wells, so to speak. That said, the above sounds logical for just getting the green dogs to be cool doing anything & everything.
> 
> -Cheers






Oh no he di'ent......


----------



## David Feliciano

Matt Grosch said:


> Oh no he di'ent......


Did shit just get real up in here?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

David Feliciano said:


> For the KNPV experts. Why are there so many perfect scores in KNPV?


 What do you find many? Percentage wise I mean? 10 championshipcontesters from a few hunderd who do their exam isn't many in my eyes.

for PH 1 (max score 440) there were years the had to fill up the 10 championship contests with people who earned 439.5/439.
Since 2007 you have to do your exam and a "nominatiewedstrijd" to go to the eindhoven. the average points must be high to attend the championships. for ph 1 this is.


----------



## David Feliciano

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> What do you find many? Percentage wise I mean? 10 championshipcontesters from a few hunderd who do their exam isn't many in my eyes.
> 
> for PH 1 (max score 440) there were years the had to fill up the 10 championship contests with people who earned 439.5/439.
> Since 2007 you have to do your exam and a "nominatiewedstrijd" to go to the eindhoven. the average points must be high to attend the championships. for ph 1 this is.


YES the percentage is astronomical.I've never heard of a 400 point french ring or mondio routine. Keep in mind how many more competitors there are in French and Mondio ring yet no 400 point routines even at the lowest level of competition


----------



## David Ruby

Matt Grosch said:


> Oh no he di'ent......


I'm hoping that wasn't inflammatory in some way. :-? Just curious how much cross-over there is (if any). Nothing more, nothing less.

And Matt, I find your lack of faith disturbing.

-Cheers


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Feliciano said:


> YES the percentage is astronomical.I've never heard of a 400 point french ring or mondio routine. Keep in mind how many more competitors there are in French and Mondio ring yet no 400 point routines even at the lowest level of competition


Why does it bother you so that a few trainers actualy make the 440 score...is it that they get these points undeserved in your eyes ? or the way how they get the points ? i do not understand what your problem is this ?


----------



## David Feliciano

Alice Bezemer said:


> Why does it bother you so that a few trainers actualy make the 440 score...is it that they get these points undeserved in your eyes ? or the way how they get the points ? i do not understand what your problem is this ?


I here so much about how difficult the sport is and how few dogs make it through blah blibbity blahblibbity boo yet see so many perfect scores. Big fish? Small pond? Corruption? 

Plus we've already established the dutch train these dogs mostly to flip them as PSDs. Higher score = more valuable dog


----------



## mike suttle

David Feliciano said:


> YES the percentage is astronomical.I've never heard of a 400 point french ring or mondio routine. Keep in mind how many more competitors there are in French and Mondio ring yet no 400 point routines even at the lowest level of competition


I am not a KNPV trainer, but I would guess the reason is because they KNPV is not as critical in the points system as the other sports. In other words, in SchH for example, there is healing, and their is perfect, happy, focused healing. In the KNPV trials that I have seen, if the dog heals, he is correct, no matter if he is happy about it, or if he is focused on the handler , etc. The same goes for all of the other excercises,
if the dog performs the excescise he gets the points. 
SchH will judge the training much more than the dog now a days, I think the KNPV still puts an emphasis on the dog more than the training. 
I have bought many KNPV titled dogs, but the score never determins the price that I pay (or the price the police pay) for the dogs.


----------



## David Feliciano

mike suttle said:


> I am not a KNPV trainer, but I would guess the reason is because they KNPV is not as critical in the points system as the other sports. In other words, in SchH for example, there is healing, and their is perfect, happy, focused healing. In the KNPV trials that I have seen, if the dog heals, he is correct, no matter if he is happy about it, or if he is focused on the handler , etc. The same goes for all of the other excercises,
> if the dog performs the excescise he gets the points.
> SchH will judge the training much more than the dog now a days, I think the KNPV still puts an emphasis on the dog more than the training.
> I have bought many KNPV titled dogs, but the score never determins the price that I pay (or the price the police pay) for the dogs.


A 399.5 dog is easier to sell to the stupid Americans than a 320 point dog. The dutch love to build themselves up, but neither they nor their dogs seem very competitive in any other sports than the one they invented and control.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Feliciano said:


> I here so much about how difficult the sport is and how few dogs make it through blah blibbity blahblibbity boo yet see so many perfect scores. Big fish? Small pond? Corruption?
> 
> Plus we've already established the dutch train these dogs mostly to flip them as PSDs. Higher score = more valuable dog



corruption ? 17 million people in the netherlands....approx 6000 KNPV people...and this year 5 yes FIVE actual 440 in PH1 and this is a reason for corruption in your eyes...

ok im going to bite....explain why ?

and YOU have established something in your head david...this doesnt make it fact tho...and since you have no actual hands on knowledge of what happens on the other side of the ocean from you it would be pretty easy to judge not having any real facts at all....

but i would like you to explain the corruption thing to me

btw i forgot to mention this...even tho the dog might get a high score its lucky to end up with the police...just coze a team of trainer and dog can obtain points doesnt automaticaly mean the dog is fit for actual policework or that the police will actualy want this dog to begin with...stop generalizing the whole by the few words or things you might have seen or heard....


----------



## Matt Grosch

It has sounded to me like the real monsters often score lower


----------



## David Feliciano

Matt Grosch said:


> It has sounded to me like the real monsters often score lower


Yea the real monsters that have control issues not due to their nerves or training but because they are magestic beasts often score lower


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Feliciano said:


> A 399.5 dog is easier to sell to the stupid Americans than a 320 point dog. The dutch love to build themselves up, but neither they nor their dogs seem very competitive in any other sports than the one they invented and control.


now thats just jealousy talking...i thought we were back to an actual discusion here....keep to the point david or dont talk at all...


----------



## David Feliciano

Alice Bezemer said:


> now thats just jealousy talking...i thought we were back to an actual discusion here....keep to the point david or dont talk at all...


Yes I'm jealous that the dutch dogs are not competitive in IPO Mondio or French Ring. Not to mention everybody knows German, French and Belgian dogs don't have what it takes to do KNPV

/sarcasm


----------



## David Ruby

David Feliciano said:


> Yea the real monsters that have control issues not due to their nerves or training but because they are magestic beasts often score lower


Regardless of how you view it, there are some reportedly oft-used KNPV dogs that are highly-touted yet have lower scores than some less-oft-used or lower-touted dogs. Maybe it's not your cup of tea, but apparently it works for them. And sure, I would bet they would love to score higher, but I would also wager they are using the lower-scoring dogs for a reason. Other than to fuel dog forum chatter, that is. I'm _totally_ sure that factors into it somewhere.

-Cheers


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Feliciano said:


> Yes I'm jealous that the dutch dogs are not competitive in IPO Mondio or French Ring. Not to mention everybody knows German, French and Belgian dogs don't have what it takes to do KNPV


ok have it your way then, if you refuse to behave as an adult and follow adult conversation then i will not participate in this conversation with you...its really that simple. 

David R...sorry bout messing up your thread mate...wasnt my intention to. Hope you get more info on what you are asking about 

i will still keep on the thread just not responding to childishness...i have better things to do then to follow the rants of 4year old sandboxdwelling people throwing tempertantrums.


----------



## David Feliciano

Alice Bezemer said:


> ok have it your way then, if you refuse to behave as an adult and follow adult conversation then i will not participate in this conversation with you...its really that simple.
> 
> David R...sorry bout messing up your thread mate...wasnt my intention to. Hope you get more info on what you are asking about
> 
> i will still keep on the thread just not responding to childishness...i have better things to do then to follow the rants of 4year old sandboxdwelling people throwing tempertantrums.


Am I a four year old child throwing sand or are you an ostrich with your head buried deep in the sand:?:

BTW personal attacks are not tolerated on the board. You should be ashamed of yourself for ruining David R's thread


----------



## Alice Bezemer

David Ruby said:


> Regardless of how you view it, there are some reportedly oft-used KNPV dogs that are highly-touted yet have lower scores than some less-oft-used or lower-touted dogs. Maybe it's not your cup of tea, but apparently it works for them. And sure, I would bet they would love to score higher, but I would also wager they are using the lower-scoring dogs for a reason. Other than to fuel dog forum chatter, that is. I'm _totally_ sure that factors into it somewhere.
> 
> -Cheers


Heres my point of view: if theres one thing ive learned over my years as training KNPV it is this...regardless the amounts of points..if the police or authorities dont like the dog for fieldwork your stuck with a nice bit of paper on your wall and a dog in the kennel....a 440 dog might look good on the examfield but how is it going to interact when it actualy has to attack or bring to a hold a civilian? you have 440ers that will do well and who wont do well out in the real working world...its that simple....i however feel that if i train a dog i want to have all those 440 points....never made em yet tho and ive been playing this game for 20 fkin years...so trust me it isnt that easy to actualy get them...and if you do ? then they still will not serve you fk all if no one is intrested in the dog as an actual working dog...


----------



## David Ruby

David Feliciano said:


> Yes I'm jealous that the dutch dogs are not competitive in IPO Mondio or French Ring. Not to mention everybody knows German, French and Belgian dogs don't have what it takes to do KNPV
> 
> /sarcasm


Devil's Advocate for a second . . . Unless I'm mistaken, Melissa McCord has gotten SchH III's on some of her Dutchies, Vrijheid has at least a couple IPO/SchH III dogs in their breeding program, I thought Jason Farrish's Bas had a Ring III, Deb at Foxtal works her Dutchies in SchH (I thought she had some III's, can't remember). Just saying, they can't all be crap.

-Cheers


----------



## David Feliciano

David Ruby said:


> Devil's Advocate for a second . . . Unless I'm mistaken, Melissa McCord has gotten SchH III's on some of her Dutchies, Vrijheid has at least a couple IPO/SchH III dogs in their breeding program, I thought Jason Farrish's Bas had a Ring III, Deb at Foxtal works her Dutchies in SchH (I thought she had some III's, can't remember). Just saying, they can't all be crap.
> 
> -Cheers


I'm not talking about titles. I'm talking about what dogs are on the podium at World Championships


----------



## David Ruby

Alice Bezemer said:


> David R...sorry bout messing up your thread mate...wasnt my intention to. Hope you get more info on what you are asking about


Eh, there is some good information in the thread, and I do try to get out and actually see the dogs in real life too. I've had worse things go on in my life. I _do_ appreciate the informative replies though.

-Cheers


----------



## David Ruby

David Feliciano said:


> I'm not talking about titles. I'm talking about what dogs are on the podium at World Championships


Fair enough. For whatever reason I don't think Dutch Shepherds have caught on much outside of Holland until recently. For their express purpose (Police Dogs), they _do_ seem to have a following, and outside of that they don't seem to have been widely bred/used for that. I will concede, that is kind of part of why I started the thread, just wondering the differences, crossover, etc., etc. At this point though, there do not seem to be many that have been trained (much less specifically bred) with the different sports in mind.

I'd imagine that might be more forthcoming in the years, but there still seem to be some fairly highly respected dogs that have Dutch heritage in one form or another.

-Cheers


----------



## James Lechernich

David Feliciano said:


> Yes I'm jealous that the dutch dogs are not competitive in IPO Mondio or French Ring. Not to mention everybody knows German, French and Belgian dogs don't have what it takes to do KNPV
> 
> /sarcasm





David Ruby said:


> Devil's Advocate for a second . . . Unless I'm mistaken, Melissa McCord has gotten SchH III's on some of her Dutchies, Vrijheid has at least a couple IPO/SchH III dogs in their breeding program, I thought Jason Farrish's Bas had a Ring III, Deb at Foxtal works her Dutchies in SchH (I thought she had some III's, can't remember). Just saying, they can't all be crap.
> 
> -Cheers


This is where I get confused with the dog sport talk. Are we talking about dogs from certain breeding programs being unable to do other sports, or titled dogs attempting to crosstrain/make the transfer to a different sport ala the one dog owned by a forum member here doing a rendition of A Chorus Line(Koruung??)? 

I can see how a dog that's done one sport its whole life might have trouble switching to something new, but one that's been raised up from a pup to do another? Sounds odd.


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## David Feliciano

@Mike Suttle

Again I ask you why did Endor have fake papers? I'm assuming you know his real pedigree. Seeing as you breed non FCI registered dogs, what was the point of putting fake papers on Endor? Why was his fake pedigree represented as factual on your website?

Did he get bred to any FCI registered bitches? You had him offered up for stud, correct?


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## James Degale

David Feliciano said:


> We have something similar to KNPV here in the states. Its called PSA. :lol::grin::smile:=P~:!:


What a stupid statement.


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## Bob Scott

David Feliciano said:


> @Mike Suttle
> 
> Again I ask you why did Endor have fake papers? I'm assuming you know his real pedigree. Seeing as you breed non FCI registered dogs, what was the point of putting fake papers on Endor? Why was his fake pedigree represented as factual on your website?
> 
> Did he get bred to any FCI registered bitches? You had him offered up for stud, correct?



I think Mike's reason for doing ANYTHING is none of your business. 
It sounds to me like your trying to call him out. 
We are ALL getting very tired of your bs!


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## Bob Scott

Alice Bezemer said:


> On the topicchanging note...
> 
> wanna see a REAL good dog ?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw4W1b3fzXc
> 
> and he aint even KNPV :-o (but im training my next dog to do the exact same thing)
> 
> How about it David *F* ? wanna bring your dog to my house for a beer ? :lol:



Of course it's a real dog. It's a Border terrier. Can't get much more real then a good terrier. :-D;-)


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## David Feliciano

Bob Scott said:


> I think Mike's reason for doing ANYTHING is none of your business.
> It sounds to me like your trying to call him out.
> We are ALL getting very tired of your bs!


I spent an hour and a half on the phone with Mike over a year ago talking about his dogs. He told me how much he loved Endor. He said he was super clean in the kennel and great to be around. He said he'd take the dog into town and tie it outside the store, trusting it not to bite anybody.

He attributed this to the thicker nerve more stable temperament of belgian dogs as opposed to dutch dogs.

I come here today and mention that his best dog was belgian and he responds that the dog is dutch top and bottom. I'd like to know why he misrepresented the dog.

Seeing as I inquired about purchasing an Endor puppy after seeing a friend's Endor pup I think this is PLENTY of my business


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## David Feliciano

The reason I didn't end up getting an Endor pup is because Mike wasn't breeding him to FCI registered bitches at the time. I wanted a dog I could compete with, so I needed papers.

He mentioned that Endor is up for stud and breeding him to an AKC registered malinois is one way of getting an FCI registered pup from Endor


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## Bob Scott

David Feliciano said:


> I spent an hour and a half on the phone with Mike over a year ago talking about his dogs. He told me how much he loved Endor. He said he was super clean in the kennel and great to be around. He said he'd take the dog into town and tie it outside the store, trusting it not to bite anybody.
> 
> He attributed this to the thicker nerve more stable temperament of belgian dogs as opposed to dutch dogs.
> 
> I come here today and mention that his best dog was belgian and he responds that the dog is dutch top and bottom. I'd like to know why he misrepresented the dog.
> 
> Seeing as I inquired about purchasing an Endor puppy after seeing a friend's Endor pup I think this is PLENTY of my business



Then take it to PMs! It's nothing but trash talk from my view!


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## David Feliciano

Bob Scott said:


> Then take it to PMs! It's nothing but trash talk from my view!


If Mike was worried about keeping this personal I doubt he'd have put the dog's fake pedigree on pedigreedatabase and his website only to come on here and proclaim the dog is pure dutch. It wasn't like I started out trashing the dog...


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## Bob Scott

David Feliciano said:


> If Mike was worried about keeping this personal I doubt he'd have put the dog's fake pedigree on pedigreedatabase and his website only to come on here and proclaim the dog is pure dutch. It wasn't like I started out trashing the dog...


You just can't let up can you!! 
Are you arguing with me now?


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## David Feliciano

Bob Scott said:


> You just can't let up can you!!
> Are you arguing with me now?


You sound like a cop


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## Timothy Stacy

David Feliciano said:


> You sound like a cop


AND you sound like the buddy ****er Jeff called you. The class snitch! Wow !!!!!!!


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## morris lindesey

James Degale said:


> What a stupid statement.



Agreed and I play PSA


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## Alice Bezemer

Bob Scott said:


> Of course it's a real dog. It's a Border terrier. Can't get much more real then a good terrier. :-D;-)



all i can say to that is " Amen Brother " ya gotta love the temper


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## mike suttle

David Feliciano said:


> @Mike Suttle
> 
> Again I ask you why did Endor have fake papers? I'm assuming you know his real pedigree. Seeing as you breed non FCI registered dogs, what was the point of putting fake papers on Endor? Why was his fake pedigree represented as factual on your website?
> 
> Did he get bred to any FCI registered bitches? You had him offered up for stud, correct?


I did not make Endor's pedigree, he came to me with that already. Yes, or course I know his real pedigree. I believe the point of them putting that pedigree on the dog was an attempt to improve the quality of the FCI Malinois. Anyone who ever called me about Endor's pedigree was given the truth about his pedigree. Ask anyone who ever talked to me about it. He was never bred to any FCI females at my kennel, but he does have some very strong FCI offspring in Holland. LOL, David, do you think this is the only strong KNPV dog with a fake pedigree????](*,)
Anyway, like I said, I have never mislead anyone about his real lines, I have never had an FCI Malinois litter here so I had no reason to lie about his pedigree.


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## Doug Zaga

mike suttle said:


> I did not make Endor's pedigree, he came to me with that already. Yes, or course I know his real pedigree. I believe the point of them putting that pedigree on the dog was an attempt to improve the quality of the FCI Malinois. Anyone who ever called me about Endor's pedigree was given the truth about his pedigree. Ask anyone who ever talked to me about it. He was never bred to any FCI females at my kennel, but he does have some very strong FCI offspring in Holland. LOL, David, do you think this is the only strong KNPV dog with a fake pedigree????](*,)
> Anyway, like I said, I have never mislead anyone about his real lines, I have never had an FCI Malinois litter here so I had no reason to lie about his pedigree.


 
Mike, I don't know you but I like your honesty!


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## mike suttle

David Feliciano said:


> I spent an hour and a half on the phone with Mike over a year ago talking about his dogs. He told me how much he loved Endor. He said he was super clean in the kennel and great to be around. He said he'd take the dog into town and tie it outside the store, trusting it not to bite anybody.
> 
> He attributed this to the thicker nerve more stable temperament of belgian dogs as opposed to dutch dogs.
> 
> I come here today and mention that his best dog was belgian and he responds that the dog is dutch top and bottom. I'd like to know why he misrepresented the dog.
> 
> Seeing as I inquired about purchasing an Endor puppy after seeing a friend's Endor pup I think this is PLENTY of my business


THIS IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT!!!!!! I have NEVER, EVER talked about Endor being a Belgium dog. And for the record, I feel that Dutch dogs are WAAAYYYY more stable than the Belgium dogs anyway.
You sir are a liar.


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## David Feliciano

You put the dog's fake pedigree on your website and now I"M the liar. LOLOL


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## David Feliciano

For those interested. Endor has three pedigrees. And I'M a liar 

http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/41090/Nierlenders Endor/


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## Bob Scott

David Feliciano said:


> You put the dog's fake pedigree on your website and now I"M the liar. LOLOL




What didn't you get about "Take it to a PM?!


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## mike suttle

David Feliciano said:


> If Mike was worried about keeping this personal I doubt he'd have put the dog's fake pedigree on pedigreedatabase and his website only to come on here and proclaim the dog is pure dutch. It wasn't like I started out trashing the dog...


I did not put the dogs pedigree on any database, that was done two years before I got the dog.](*,)


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