# (see PPD Screening thread)



## Woody Taylor

I had a great question PM'd to me by a forum member last night...who wanted it put out for discussion.



> Back in the 80's, folks with money and an interest in Schutzhund (but no interest in training for Schutzhund) would purchase titled dogs. It seemed like these owners lacked the ability to maintain these dogs, and the dogs neither respected nor worked for them.
> 
> It seems like there are a ton of people offering up PP trained dogs for sale to people with money. What I'm wondering is...what kinds of qualifications do trainers require of these buyers? Are there "rules" about to whom you do and do not sell these dogs? Are these rules ignored by less ethical PP trainers, and what are some of the consequences of this?


Well, PP trainers and owners, what do you think?


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## Woody Taylor

FWIW, I think this is a pretty interesting topic, I have a lot of reservations myself about the notion that John Q. Public can go out and buy "out of the box" PP dogs w/o being thoroughly screened by the trainer/broker....I still remember all those "TimberShepherd" ads in those dumb mercenary magazines like Soldier of Fortune I used to read when I was a kid...they are pretty creepy to think about now. I guess those TimberShepherd ads have been replaced by Thunderbird Ovcharkas and stuff. Not sure which would be worse for a dumb owner to have. At least the hybrid would probably run off and go feral...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:I still remember all those "TimberShepherd" ads in those dumb mercenary magazines like Soldier of Fortune I used to read when I was a kid.

It is all coming clear now.  :twisted: 


At some point, you sell the idiots the dog that puts on a good show, but is full of shit. Business will always come over ethics here. 

I am sure people still think that there are "good" PP dogs out there, but if I am breeding dogs and I have a chance between giving a dog a good home doing Mondio, or relagating my puppy to the bowels of PP............. PP ain't getting squat.

PP attracts some interesting characters.


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## Woody Taylor

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> PP attracts some interesting characters.


I would guess. I dont' get it, myself, seems like an awfully failure-prone thing to put in your house and "protect" you. But I think that's what the person was wondering...what kinds of people show up, and what kinds of screening is done. Jeff my guess is you have taken multiple MMPIs :twisted: but you all as PP trainers probably aren't requiring them of your customers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sure Woody, I sit around in my spare time and take tests. Ever take a high level psych course??? I got laid all the time in college by taking those classes. Great stuff, hot chicks that do........ Oh GOD I miss those days  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Ok, so here is something else to think about. Knowing the people that take those classes, why the "F" would you listen to them???? Hell, I took those classes and used to look around and think, these people are gonna tell others whats wrong with them? And then I bust out laughing in class.


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## Woody Taylor

I wasn't suggesting that you had taken them voluntarily, of course. That would be dumb! More of a kind of...."managed clinical environment" where you were "encouraged" to take a test like that every now and then. And where you learned to hate ecollars and avoidance training. But to love working for food rewards!

But seriously, have you ever told someone they could not buy/have a PP dog you were selling, or they were wanting you to train up? What was the circumstance?

Still hoping others will jump in, btw. Al? Andres?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

PP dog threads are dumb, wanabees that want to talk trash about how good their dogs are, but can't prove it.

I like e-collars, I just know that most trainers have shit timing, and are basically worthless with an e-collar. Avoidance training? Again, wrong guy. I use it, but I am not some guy with a pet shepherd wondering were to get equipment. I came up in a time that people didn't tell you stuff right away, 'cause you were too fuckin% dumb to use it properly. Then along comes the internet, and POOF, all these people who have maybe an hours worth of training experience are commenting on shit they will never understand. NEVER. Does that help you out? 

Can I make it more clear to anyone? People read this stuff, people that do not post or ask questions, they run out and try it. They are the people that hear, or read everything but the common sense part. CLEAN UP THE OUT ON THE TABLE. That is all they will see. Not the experience, just the out part. E-collars the same thing. All they see is someone fixed a dog with one. So enough with the BS. You don't know me, cause I don't let you. I just try to keep people from abusing dogs too badly. Most dog people are dumb as a box of rocks. TRY AND REMEMBER THAT.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

As far as training someones dog, I don't anymore if I don't like the reason/person. Back in the day I would, but that is that weird business vs your ethics morals and common sense thing.


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## Woody Taylor

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Can I make it more clear to anyone? People read this stuff, people that do not post or ask questions, they run out and try it. They are the people that hear, or read everything but the common sense part. CLEAN UP THE OUT ON THE TABLE. That is all they will see. Not the experience, just the out part. E-collars the same thing. All they see is someone fixed a dog with one. So enough with the BS. You don't know me, cause I don't let you. I just try to keep people from abusing dogs too badly. Most dog people are dumb as a box of rocks. TRY AND REMEMBER THAT.


That's exactly the same concerns a few of us had and still have, Jeff. I can send you the PMs. So it's good that you challenge the stuff you find abusive, stupid, or dangerous for idiots like me. Fact of the matter is I can go to any training disty you point me at and buy anything I want to destroy my dog, right next to the famous basic obedience stuff and the squeeky balls, and my guess is I could have a PP dog mailed to me in a few weeks if I wanted to make that happen, no questions asked. This thread is intended to talk about this kind of stuff. 

You've posted the same warning to me before; I agree 100%. People reading this stuff should know their own limitations, or at least read deeply enough to start to identifying them. You want mine relative to this? PPDs? I never want anything to do with them and I think that *most* of the people I've met with an interest in one are the same folks who buy Glocks, throw them in the nightstand, and consider themselves ready for WWIII. I may be wrong--good thing we can discuss that issue here.

But relative to your concerns, this seems like a good opportunity for you to talk about why these types of animals are inappropriate for some (most?) people. As you have with table training and Rottweilers and ecollars and some other dog stuff.


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## Woody Taylor

One more thing: I think it's bullshit and condescending to assume that people don't have a right to see this information, or that sharing it in the context of good-natured discussion is irresponsible. Give me a break. You want to make somebody want something really bad? Tell them they can't have it. Why do you think a newb dummy like me spends time at another forum (and this one) talking about what a pain in the ass it is to have a dog that, by your standards, would be culled? Let alone some rigged-up Mal guys like you would train out to be light weapons?


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## susan tuck

Jeff, now would be a good time to tell the story about the "anal glands" dog. I asked Woody to pose this topic because I knew he would ask it right. I was wondering about it because of all the stuff I see on the net. Since I am a dinasoaur, the net is still pretty new to me. I have been a little shocked by all the pp stuff. I remember when people had to train their own dogs in schutzhund. I think one of the reasons was so that you would get people willing to do the obedience & the tracking, not just the protection. Sort of weeding out people that just wanted a scary dog. Has society changed so quickly or is just because so much information is so much easier to get?

Also, I am not trying to say the other sports are bad, so I hope nobody thinks that. I am wondering about those who breed, but don't title their dogs. Are they only selling to people who are knowledgable about their particular dogs? If the dogs aren't titled or judged, what happens in a breeding program? 

I am hoping someone can help me to understand.

Thanks!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I remember the story, just can't use the search function. I don't remember the thread I put it in.

Once you have had a dog that enjoys working and does most everything well, the cool little cull kinda goes in the dumper. Wait till Lyka gets older. Mike will end up like all the rest of you that eventually get a good working dog. It takes so much time, and at first your heart and soul, that the other dog just stays home. If you work enough dogs, the heart and soul stays home too.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I think it's bullshit and condescending to assume that people don't have a right to see this information

Your Goddamn right it is, and I have earned that right over 35 years of hacking away at dog training. You are damn skippy. WTF right do you have to free info with out any experience at all??? I haven't even seen what you can do with a regular dog, and you think you can comprehend avoidance training? E-collar training? Table training? You have lost your mind. Put the little cull up on a table, strap a E-collar on her neck, and do some avoidance training. Then call me ten minutes later when you don't have a clue how to put what these people have told you into practice. Then call me twenty minutes later when your cull is a vegetable, because she couldn't handle your "practical application" skills. 

How many dogs have you trained? How many did you train well? How many have you screwed up? This is what makes a dog trainer, not some N00b that can spew theory, albeit incorrect the internet. This is the term "instant expert" and why the 'net is dangerous.

So there you go, I imagine this was something like what you were looking for. Too bad you suck as a dog trainer, imagine the really good firing ups you could get if you knew what to ask for real!!!!


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff, I think maybe you are missing a big point here. 

The information is available. Period. Doesn't matter what "right" an inexperienced person all excited about training his first dog has to tricky, delicate, and experience-sensitive methods or equipment, because he can get it. 

What this forum and others like it can do is the huge service (IMO) to dogs everywhere of pointing out over and over and over how much better it works to start with tried-and-true methods and equipment while gaining experience.

You, for example.......... you have the experience to say with authority how much damage can be done by an inexperienced trainer using a dicey method or tool.

Saying "I won't give this info" does exactly zero good, I think. Presenting the downside, *especially* with one's own negative experiences to back it up, is a real service.


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## Woody Taylor

Kind of looks like the firing ups are pretty good on the ignorant stuff I'm posting? What happened to all your emoticons?

And no, you should not "protect" us idiots from information. You have an obligation (in my mind) to share it. In an accessible way. In my own opinion, you speak pretty well about dogs and provide great insights when you're not trying to show the girls in the back of the classroom your dead bug collection. I would trust you with my dog, if that makes any difference.

I wouldn't do any of the things (tables, ecollars) you suggest with my dog. That is because of what you and others have told me about them, and what I have learned here and elsewhere. If one year ago my breeder would have said she knew a guy who would train up my dog for $500 using some fast techniques like this "table" thing and this ecollar like they put on retrievers, no big deal, who knows what I might have done? 

Now, carrying out your theory on idiot readers, the lurkers in this forum now understand that rattlesnakes make great pets, one can take many bites from them, and just twist off a neck when they are done. I can go buy that snake right now at Hot Herps. So tell me again about the dangers of pretending to be something you're not (or at least severely bullshitting to the point of silliness) in a forum like this? You have also explicitly talked about easy scoring with women in bullshit liberal arts courses at universities. That's one I can confirm. I have a degree in English.

And as far as that goes, you can look at my posting history...the only people I have ever given advice to (re: dogs) are people dumber than me making mistakes even I could identify. I do that because I was in their situation once, and I still am in their situation. Try to look at an instance of me giving advice where I had no business giving it.

And...I should probably point out that making me have "experience" before I deserve to get "info" from people like you drives the very behaviors and results you say you feel morally obligated to prevent. So Jeff...based on your logic...how many dogs do I have to break before I (or anyone else with a basic appreciation of working dogs) earn the right to get info from you? 1? 2? 500?


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## Connie Sutherland

QUOTE: I wouldn't do any of the things (tables, ecollars) you suggest with my dog. That is because of what you and others have told me about them, and what I have learned here and elsewhere. If one year ago my breeder would have said she knew a guy who would train up my dog for $500 using some fast techniques like this "table" thing and this ecollar like they put on retrievers, no big deal, who knows what I might have done? END

Exactly. I certainly do not want to give Jeff any strokes*, but he is one of the several members here I trust to tell me the dangers in using a tool or method that's experience-sensitive, even though someone else might tout it as the best and easiest thing since sliced bread.

*


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## Jeff Oehlsen

> Woody, I only do this to help you out. Think about it, you don't know enough about what you are doing to incite others to join in like I can. I appreciate the effort, so I reward you from time to time. Good dog.


Works for me! I don't know any better. So, are you going to talk about profiles of potential PP owners and who you would or would not sell a dog to?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:So Jeff...based on your logic...how many dogs do I have to break before I (or anyone else with a basic appreciation of working dogs) earn the right to get info from you? 1? 2? 500?

I can't imagine you doing anything else BUT break a dog. Come back in ten years when you have a clue. You have to earn info. Or you can go to a seminar whore and pay for it.

Quote:You have an obligation (in my mind) to share it

Send me that 500 bucks I saved you, and I might.

Quote:rattlesnakes make great pets

Connie, see how people only see what they want to see? No way I thought that snake was anything but interesting. Not a great pet, nor did I say it was. That is why I twisted its neck. For sure snake tastes like chicken. That is confirmed.

I want to see the video of you catching dogs Woody, I can then use another term besides a Monkey ***** a football. C'mon now, don't you want to be the basis of new internet terminology?


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## Woody Taylor

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I want to see the video of you catching dogs Woody, I can then use another term besides a Monkey fucking a football. C'mon now, don't you want to be the basis of new internet terminology?


What's not funny about this exchange is that we screwed up the thread and I blew off another day of work at my deskjob.

What's funniest about this? A few hours from now? You're gonna reread this stuff...a little twitch will develop in your cheek, maybe your neck...a little burn from the base of your skull...and you're gonna mutter to yourself:

WOODY 1, JEFF 0.

G'night, folks!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:What's funniest about this? A few hours from now? You're gonna reread this stuff...a little twitch will develop in your cheek, maybe your neck...a little burn from the base of your skull...and you're gonna mutter to yourself: 

WOODY 1, JEFF 0. 


I wasn't gonna do this, but will mostly cause I have no idea what you are thinking here. 1 what?

Quote:Jeff Oehlsen Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote: 
Woody, I only do this to help you out. Think about it, you don't know enough about what you are doing to incite others to join in like I can. I appreciate the effort, so I reward you from time to time. Good dog. 


Works for me! I don't know any better. So, are you going to talk about profiles of potential PP owners and who you would or would not sell a dog to? 

Woody 1 Jeff 0? Lack of reality is running rampant in your posts Woody. Does your family have a history of mental illness???

You remember when you would go to the local bar and sit down and talk to people? remember how eventually, you were sitting by yourself? Even the bartender was at the other end? That means something to normal people Woody, it means you need help. :twisted:


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## Connie Sutherland

Oh, brother........ :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have a whole day off, so I decided to spend the day playing with Woody.
Who names their kid Woody? Just joking, it is too hot to do anything else. I was out in the sun the past two weeks, so I might be a bit much for a while. Got a trial this weekend, so I am trying not to think about how long it has been since I trialed, and how bad I am going to do. My poor dog has soooooo much to put up with the next couple of days. After that, I will find a nice place to let him blow off the steam that is no doubt building up.


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## Connie Sutherland

By the way,

"Back in the 80's, folks with money and an interest in Schutzhund (but no interest in training for Schutzhund) would purchase titled dogs. It seemed like these owners lacked the ability to maintain these dogs, and the dogs neither respected nor worked for them. 

It seems like there are a ton of people offering up PP trained dogs for sale to people with money. What I'm wondering is...what kinds of qualifications do trainers require of these buyers? Are there 'rules' about to whom you do and do not sell these dogs? Are these rules ignored by less ethical PP trainers, and what are some of the consequences of this?"


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Are these rules ignored by less ethical PP trainers, and what are some of the consequences of this?"

Yes.

Not much, as the dogs are usually junk to begin with. I answered this about two pages ago. Ms, not paying attention.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:Are these rules ignored by less ethical PP trainers, and what are some of the consequences of this?"
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Not much, as the dogs are usually junk to begin with. I answered this about two pages ago. Ms, not paying attention.


Yes, I was. 

I guess it's the weather or something, but threads do seem to have a way of turning into something far more personal and less instructive recently.

Do PPD trainers usually require that the new owner submit to some kind of training, no matter how short, or are there really turnkey PPD operations..... as in "you pay, we ship"?

I realize this is an amazingly ill-informed question, but that's why I'm asking. :lol:


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## Andres Martin

There is ONE rule. The golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules.


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## Connie Sutherland

Andres Martin said:


> There is ONE rule. The golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules.


How about PPD trainers here? Does anyone have rules about buyers?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:I guess it's the weather or something, but threads do seem to have a way of turning into something far more personal and less instructive recently.

We just like to be stinky.

Usually I talk to the client for a while and ask what he is looking for, what situation he is in, and most of the time he is looking for a glamour pet. There are people that need PP dogs, but most of them have personal security. 

The other thing is most people that really need PP dogs do not want you talking about them at all.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:I guess it's the weather or something, but threads do seem to have a way of turning into something far more personal and less instructive recently.
> 
> We just like to be stinky.
> 
> Usually I talk to the client for a while and ask what he is looking for, what situation he is in, and most of the time he is looking for a glamour pet. There are people that need PP dogs, but most of them have personal security.
> 
> The other thing is most people that really need PP dogs do not want you talking about them at all.


What's a glamor pet? A dog who looks scary?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Kinda like Lassie, it's a trick, more or less.


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## Tim Martens

jeff,

how many dogs have you taken from pup to MR1 or pup to FRIII? just curious...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Workin on that right now. I am going for Buko's 1 this weekend. I guess I should say that I am going for myself, it has been a long time since I have trialed.

My biggest set back has been that I was the club's only decoy on a regular basis for over two years. I have another dog that is close to ready for his MR 1, I will try to get him ready for the fall.

Buko knows all the exersizes in MR, but with MR they really need good decoys to show them stuff. I do not have them yet. They could be, but I will not be holding my breath. All are really new.

I also took over a year off to get a decoy ready. In the process, I screwed up a lot of Buko's training. All part of the joy of doing an off sport.

In my club, the worst on the planet, decoys are treated like equipment. Oh, you wanted to train your dog? Well all our dogs have trained today, so maybe next week. If I get to train, it is at the very end, when I am tired from working everyone else's dogs. Not really conducive to productive training. That is why I worked so hard with Sandro to get him going. Nothing like having people take down blinds and jumps while you are trying to work your dog. I have a slight temper, so it is hard when you ask to work your dog first, and they ignore you. I have really thought about running their dogs off the field SO MANY TIMES. 

At least I am not bitter.


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## Tim Martens

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My biggest set back has been that I was the club's only decoy on a regular basis for over two years.


yes, that can be a huge setback. you gotta lay down the law with them. i believe that just about anybody with even a shred of athleticism can be at least a decent decoy IF they have the desire to do so. you think you have it bad? try getting cops to do it....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: i believe that just about anybody with even a shred of athleticism can be at least a decent decoy IF they have the desire to do so

I look for timing, and confidence to do the right thing for the dog, not waiting for me to say so. This is one of the things that I like/hate about Mondio. No need to be really fast, or esquive the dog. Good timing for correction/reward is enough. I have 1 guy, not so fast, but by God, he has that timing. Tell him what you want corrected, and it is real nice. So pleasant. I get all giddy thinking about it, it has been sooooo long.  :lol:


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## Andres Martin

Decoying police dogs is soooooooo different than decoying Ring dogs. I have yet to see a single police decoy that can take leg bites from a good dog consistently and well...but I freely admit I have only seen less than 30 police decoys.

My pup likes to bite "leg" and I can't let him loose because he's still too fast, and could hurt himself on a semi static and too well planted decoy. All distance bites are either on a long line or on the arm(pit) so far.

Jeff...good luck at the trial. May your dog break a leg. We're rootin' for ya. If you can post photos or video it would be great. I would like to put a face behind your very abundant funny wiseass remarks. :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe

He posted a video a while back, Andres. Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51DEzRuEYTY


:wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Kristen Cabe said:


> He posted a video a while back, Andres. Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51DEzRuEYTY
> 
> 
> :wink:


Ah yes the video with the cheesey 80s synth music


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I had nothing at all to do with the music. Cheesy porn was most people's comments. All I remember, vaguely, was that I had been working a lot of dogs on a bungee and my knees were killing me. Nothing as much fun as when the knees are worse than usual.


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## Andres Martin

I tried the video link, but I can't get it to work. All I get is a big, very-white mass that moves around on the screen. Any help will be appreciated.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That mass is me. Thanks.


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## Andres Martin

Cool. Good to meet you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Try going to youtube and search for Buko. That should get you there.


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## Andres Martin

Ah...now I can see what you mean by a slow decoy that knows how to reward...

Shes rewarding herself, right? :twisted: 

How young is the pup, then and now?


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## Bob Scott

At first I was thinking it was that Buko King video. 
Somehow I can picture you peeling a coconut with your teeth for weekend fun. :lol: :wink:


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