# What is your definition of a vicious dog?



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I was told today that if we're not careful with training the Mali he could end up being a vicious dog because of his, nerve quality, high aggression and confidence level. I don't see him as vicious at all and of all my dogs, I would trust him around little kids and other animals as much as I would trust my pugs. 

He seems to not give a shit about people unless you're being threatening and he's otherwise very social and affectionate.

This is his pedigree mostly schH crap (according to Jeff O) http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/pedigree.asp?ID=2ZPA3V41PN 

What is vicious to you?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I would say the viscious dog is a total fear biter. Totally uncontrolled and unpredictable. Totally lacking in confidence but has the drives.....creates an unbalanced dog.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, i'm gonna try to "cut & paste" Merriam's definition: well, that didn't work, but i'm worse than jeff at this computer stuff......

soooo, IME, such a dog is basically as don said: so afraid/defensive of every little thing that the only reaction it can come up with is to attack. this type of animal is ALWAYS in defense, ALWAYS convinced it's life is on the line, and should ALWAYS be shot.

that's my definition of a "vicious" dog. not necessarily the definition a city/township/county may make. 

the devil's in the details.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Don, 

I don't see fear biters as vicious dogs because that can usually be run off fairly easily. I have a rott in my house that I have been rehabbing for 2 yrs. She has severe fear issues and I wouldn't call her vicious.

The Mal pup I have has no fear issues. He's very confident, playful and social. I haven't seen any aggression out of him except on the training field. Today the helper wanted to see where his nerve was since the pup hadn't been worked since mid-dec and now that he's 7mo it's time to get more serious about training. The helper walked up to the dog in a fairly threatening manner but didn't have a stick or sleeve. The pup was already barking at the helper... the helper stops in front of him and raised his hand to see what the dog would do but before the hand was even at mid-level the dog had launched and bite the helper in the face. This was the very first time there was any kind of pressure put on him.

He needs grip work but otherwise he was pretty impressive today. The trainers were saying we need to be careful because he could be made to be a crazy police level dog and I need to decide right now what I want out of him....sport dog or not.

I was told to be careful because if he's so willing to bite without any focus on the equipment he could become a vicious dog. 

I guess I don't see that. I see how he could easily become a national level schH dog. I can see how he'd do well in mondio too but I don't see the dog as a crazy dog that will bite any moving thing without command.

I wish I had video of this morning's session, there's definitely no fear in this pup. The other guys think so too and I could have sold him twice this morning if I "didn't want a dog like that"


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

one of two things, either your helper is DUMB or you don't know how to hold a line.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> Don,
> 
> I don't see fear biters as vicious dogs because that can usually be run off fairly easily. I have a rott in my house that I have been rehabbing for 2 yrs. She has severe fear issues and I wouldn't call her vicious.
> 
> ...


Chris- why don't you focus on the sport and when your dog is finished and you are bored cross over?

By the way what club are you working in?

Julie


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

the question was "what is your definition of a vicious dog?", NOT "why my dog isn't vicious".


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

According to the girl at the grocery store in Orlando, a vicious dog is a dog that's fed hotdogs, because feeding a dog meat makes them mean.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I simply don't understand this "Test". While the dog defended himself it seems a little over the top. Why would the helper not simply play with the tug/sleeve and go from prey to a little defense and see what's up?
What happened after this cough "Test"?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Uncontrolled aggression"
That could be fear or nerve based or just a plain old, mean and nasty dog that never has had any rules set for it to follow.

Mike
We all know that raw meat theory is BS. 
To do it right you have to feed the dog gun powder and ground up wasps!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Mike
We all know that raw meat theory is BS. 
To do it right you have to feed the dog gun powder and ground up wasps! [/quote]

I guess I've been doing it all wrong, doesn't Red Pepper work?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Mike
> We all know that raw meat theory is BS.
> To do it right you have to feed the dog gun powder and ground up wasps!


I guess I've been doing it all wrong, doesn't Red Pepper work?[/quote]


Only if you want a sissy dog! :-o :wink:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris, For your dog I have no idea if he has it in him to be a vicious dog. Just keep socializing the dog, pairing people and other external stimulus with positive experiences. 

I agree with Edward. this is just my own opinion. In training, I train. I do not test. I find taking a 7 month old dog, whom is not fully emotionally mature and has not been on a field in a few months is a recipe to create problems. The nerve of a 7 month old dog is a moot point ....there are no competetions for 7 month old dogs. And if there were nerve problems, Why on Earth would we try to provoke them. And if there are no nerve problems....why on Earth would we try to provoke them! This type of "testing" there is nothing to be gained and everything to be lossed. If I was dying that much to see what the dog had. I would do it slowly over time. I would add a little bit of pressure for short durations. Uping the pressure and time the dog faced the pessure over the course of time. If I saw anything I did not like. I would stop. take a step back, think about what's happening and try to implement some form of desentization and/or positive association to the stimulus. The only thing that "testing" ever does for me is either makes me, the handler disappointed or excited about what I see. And both have thier problems. If I am disappionted...I tend to focus on that problem which usually could have been avoided if I just had trained the dog...or if I am excited I tend to show it off....And I see a lot of people do this. They say Ahhh...do not worry...He can take it. The kicker is for now he can take it, but over time the handler keeps giving permission and eventually the dog may start showing signs that they are getting sick of it. And then the handler responds...I do not know what happened! he has never done that! When my dog, who is almost 4 and has been off the field for a time...the first thing I do is remind her why the field is a great place to be. 

As for a definition? I do not know...there are so many different things that can motivate a dog to bite that we call vicious. Is a dog protecting a resource vicious? I looked up the websters definiton of vicious...it has a few...But the one that seemed applicable to a dog is "dangerously aggressive" It's a pretty generic. So I suppose your asking what traits can make a dog "dangerously aggressive". Well, I think to know what's in a dog minds is what we all are seeking. And I think that the factors that can create a "dangerously aggressive" dog is a pretty broad subject.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I guess I've been doing it all wrong, doesn't Red Pepper work?


Only if you want a sissy dog! :-o :wink:[/quote]

Ok, I'll go to the gun store tomorrow, the wasp thing may be a problem, what about killer bees? :twisted:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> one of two things, either your helper is DUMB or you don't know how to hold a line.



Naw, I held the line just fine. That much was determined after the fact. I felt really bad and assumed it was my fault at first. The helper was too slow and dumb about it. He admits fault and wasn't angry about it. He said he had forgotten how quick Mals are.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Only if you want a sissy dog! :-o :wink:


Ok, I'll go to the gun store tomorrow, the wasp thing may be a problem, what about killer bees? :twisted:[/quote]


Only in big numbers! :twisted: :twisted: :razz:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> I simply don't understand this "Test". While the dog defended himself it seems a little over the top. Why would the helper not simply play with the tug/sleeve and go from prey to a little defense and see what's up?
> What happened after this cough "Test"?



We let the dog bite the apron, then somebody threw in a puppy sleeve and we went to work with that bloody face and all.


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## Jeff smith (Jan 28, 2009)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> According to the girl at the grocery store in Orlando, a vicious dog is a dog that's fed hotdogs, because feeding a dog meat makes them mean.


funny you should say that.
i had a lady come into my office and rant about how bad pitbulls were in our area and then said "you know how they make them mean dont you?" (well she has been tottaly false so far but thought why not see what she says.) i said no i sure dont. tell me..

she said "they feed them raw bloody meat..." i had a puzzeled look on my face and said and how did you come to that conclusion? she said it makes them hungry for blood and thats why they attack so often..
i started busting up and basicly said she was retarded(in a nice way) and walked off.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Mike the girl in the store is RIGHT!* Feeding hotdogs will make them mean. Do you have any idea what they put in hotdogs? See! Now a nice deer roast and you will have a better mannered animal.[-X


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Your dog doesn't sounds anything special (sorry). 

I've heard it many times before "best dog so and so has seen for a while, fearless, confident, bombproof, definitely a _real _dog, police dog material, advanced for his age, in good hands he could be top level competitor, my helper is impressed by him......". These cliches are thrown about like free sweets. 

We will see if he is a good dog in 2 years.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually, to describe viscious, the dog would be one that enjoys setting on small dogs and children for the fun of it. He is "viscious" or mean, but, it does not imply he is tough nor that he can back up the visciousness. That is why a say a fear biter.
Didn't gunpowder work better than hot dogs?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

after reading a bunch of posts maybe my mal is vicious because of the things he eats. The older dogs get pills shoved in wiener chunks and so the Mal will get one too. Lately he's been counter surfing....he especially likes sticks of butter so I've been leaving lots of things with hot pepper sauce on them and in one stick of butter was diced up habenero.

Hot peppers and wieners that seems to be the ticket to face bites and vicious dogs.:-o


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Vicious is a relative term you have mentioned you want a ppd dog a good mal is a extreme dog careful what you wish for. 
If the guy got caught by your pup because he forgot how fast mals are I would be questing what else he has forgotten/knows???
Don't let Goobers Garage work on your Ferrari


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I go with the legal definition here - rabid.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Vicious is a relative term you have mentioned you want a ppd dog a good mal is a extreme dog careful what you wish for.
> If the guy got caught by your pup because he forgot how fast mals are I would be questing what else he has forgotten/knows???
> Don't let Goobers Garage work on your Ferrari



He's a good helper Mike one of the better ones around here... I can see how it would be difficult to adjust from working Rotties and then to a Mal - puppy or not.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I was told today that if we're not careful with training the Mali he could end up being a vicious dog because of his, nerve quality, high aggression and confidence level. I don't see him as vicious at all and of all my dogs, I would trust him around little kids and other animals as much as I would trust my pugs.
> 
> He seems to not give a shit about people unless you're being threatening and he's otherwise very social and affectionate.
> 
> ...


No disrespect intended Chris, but I've seen your 'training status' change from SchH, to Mondio, now to personal protection, so maybe it's the lack of a solid training program that makes this pup unsure of what he's supposed to be doing? 

Personally I wouldn't work with anyone who already thinks a pup could become vicious. Self fullfilling propheses have a way of coming true if _you_ allow it. I agree with Kyle your helper is a moron  Ultimately you are accountable for how this pup turns out!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> No disrespect intended Chris, but I've seen your 'training status' change from SchH, to Mondio, now to personal protection, so maybe it's the lack of a solid training program that makes this pup unsure of what he's supposed to be doing?
> 
> Personally I wouldn't work with anyone who already thinks a pup could become vicious. Self fullfilling propheses have a way of coming true if _you_ allow it. I agree with Kyle your helper is a moron  Ultimately you are accountable for how this pup turns out!


\


My training status changes on my mood and whenever I'm changing profile pics. The mondio club in town isn't together. BTW- the helper is NOT a moron. Everyone gets caught every now and again. I've been training with the same group of guys for awhile now. Most of which are national level schH competitors so I'm always going to have my foot in schH whether or not I want it.

I did train with a moronic helper before this current group and I hear now that his own dog has been ruined and so he just imported another to try again. glad to be out of that group.


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## Lonnie Benzel (Mar 17, 2009)

As a previous animal control officer my personal definition is an unapproachable dog with a bite record. By NH law vicious was a dog who bit someone or another dog or killed another animal (someone's pet). Three bites - same owner - dog can be removed legally. Not a good situation for the dog.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

As above i think a unapproachable dog with a bite history for sure is a dog not to be messed with but it doesnt mean it viscous it would be a matter of where the bites took place if they were on its territory well you were probably warned but if in public and random thats different.

Also can anyone comment on what don said about a viscous dog is one that attacks small dogs and children what makes a dog do this dominance, fear, rank issues??This seems like a dog that takes every opportunity to drive home its dominance.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

To me a vicious dog would be one that responded aggressively without provocation or without any of the normal cues to do so. 

With, I guess, a bit of unpredictability or unreadability, so you never know when the dog is going to bite, or can't tell that he's escalating to a bite. 

I guess I would include a dog so lacking in socialization/exposure and training that his only response is to bite - like those dogs you hear about that escape from a junkyard/garage/building and attack everything they see... other dogs, children, adults.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I agree with Lonnie Benzel's defintion as it's pretty much the same thing I have in mind.

I've got clarification on what was meant with my dog... vicious was meant as unrelenting in attack which could be a bad thing if I don't have control over my dog. It wasnt intended to mean unwarranted aggression but rather if there were a person who entered my home while I'm away, and the dog were more mature and advanced in his training, I could expect to find a severely injured if not dead intruder if he didn't have a weapon. BUT it's all speculation since he's only a pup however I'm told lines can be drawn based on other similar dogs and past experience. In other words, I have a lot of dog and a damn good one.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *Mike the girl in the store is RIGHT!* Feeding hotdogs will make them mean. Do you have any idea what they put in hotdogs? See! Now a nice deer roast and you will have a better mannered animal.[-X


Yeah, give me a hot dog and I get downright mean too. :twisted: Now the deer roast? Add some sauted mushrooms, twice baked potatoes, and a nice wine and that makes for happy living. O


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It is pretty clear that there is a wide opinion of vicious.

Brad, I will be the fiest to comment on what I said about setting on small dogs and children. It has nothing to do with dominance. They are CS dogs plain and simple. A really dominate dog doesn't have to beat up and kill small dogs and bite kids. They are much to confident for that. Proving dominance has to do with winning a match that is close enough to threaten the dogs standing.....which would translate to one that is close to an equal. At least that is the way I see it. I think dominance is totally misunderstood by most because rather than being aggressive, they are nothing but cool.....unless there is an equal around.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think dominance is totally misunderstood by most because rather than being aggressive, they are nothing but cool.....unless there is an equal around.


Very well put. 

As far as vicious goes, I like Leslie's definition.


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## Ryan Cole (Mar 5, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is pretty clear that there is a wide opinion of vicious.
> quote]
> 
> According to the lady at the dog park with her boxer sporting a pretty pink bow on its collar, my Mal is vicious because he was snapping at the back of her dog's neck in a _mutual_ game of chase-and-grab.
> ...


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## Shane Carter (May 25, 2008)

I can say this for sure the Mondio group in town PHX is very together. We just had the Vice President of US Mondio Ring and decoy chair come over to give a seminar for us, that we where all pleased with. We did this to support and to help cement us in Mondio Ring here in AZ. 
I just wanted to publicly state this so there are no mis-conceptions about our group. We train 3-4 times a week and have good attendance from all involved.
Best wishes with your dogs Chris.


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## Justin Gannon (Nov 17, 2008)

Well said Shane. I like to go out in a hail of gun fire so I will stop...............


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Shane Carter said:


> I can say this for sure the Mondio group in town PHX is very together. We just had the Vice President of US Mondio Ring and decoy chair come over to give a seminar for us, that we where all pleased with. We did this to support and to help cement us in Mondio Ring here in AZ.
> I just wanted to publicly state this so there are no mis-conceptions about our group. We train 3-4 times a week and have good attendance from all involved.
> Best wishes with your dogs Chris.



Just to clarify, last time I asked YOU, Shane, you said it wasn't together. I haven't heard from you since. Sorry for the inaccurate information.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think dominance is totally misunderstood by most because rather than being aggressive, they are nothing but cool.....unless there is an equal around.


Again, I absolutly agree. I was talking to Gerben about this a couple of days ago. My Dutchies are all very dominant, however they do not start fights. If there is another dog they will go up to it socially and will jump up on their back legs and do the whole dominace strut etc. My male will then proceed to try and breed every dog regardless of sex. If they take it then he is 100% happy and social, if they fight or try and bite him he will explode and try and smash them. I have a dominant female Dutchie I got from Holland and again she is similar. I run her with my old male GSD and he is a little weak in the back legs from an injury so he is only maybe 50% capable. My female Dutchie has no need to smash him because she knows she could if she wanted to and she goes very easy with him. Put her with another dog who challanges sher and she will fight big time.
However I have had alot of "dominant" dobies and they would just fly in and attack every other dog even if they werent even looking at them. 
So yeah, dominace doesnt have to run with dog aggessive.
One thing I have noticed with these dominat Dutchies with people is that love to jump up on you and bear hug you, and I have seen and felt on a number of occasions that they do not like being pushed down and a couple have actually got angry with strangers pushing them down.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think that Soda PoP is viscous. She is from the "U" litter, and I was going to name her upchuck for the longest time. Lots of clean up from the little barf bag.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I did train with a moronic helper before this current group and I hear now that his own dog has been ruined and so he just imported another to try again. glad to be out of that group.


:roll:


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Legally a deftnition can vary from every town to every state. But as someone (Anne?) stated most legal definitions will say in their language _"A dog that attacks without provocation"_ others will qualify it a little more and may add _"Causing bodily harm that would cause a reasonable person to seek medical attention." _ 

But the no provocation is pretty much universal lelly.


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