# Human/canine similarities



## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I was just sitting here thinking about how similar the defensive behavior I see in weak dogs is to the defensive behavior I see in weak humans.

First, lots of posturing/over the top displays ...barking, teeth baring, aggressive threats.

Then comes avoidance/displacement ..."If I pretend you're not there or I'm not here, this will go away."

Finally, when that doesn't work, start taking cheap shots without any real substance to back it up.

Interesting, to say the least.


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## john chester (Apr 20, 2009)

More like Ostriches than dogs


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I was just sitting here thinking about how similar the defensive behavior I see in weak dogs is to the defensive behavior I see in weak humans.
> 
> First, lots of posturing/over the top displays ...barking, teeth baring, aggressive threats.
> 
> ...


 
I have pondered the same thing from time to time. It would not suprise me that any mammal capable of complex social structures would exhibit similar social defense mechanims. 

Kind of like bullies. You know with puppies, I know people who like the ones that beat up or try to beat up all the other puppies. From my experience looking at pups, the often turn out to be the more insecure dogs later in life, and have the least amount of success. 

Also, with confident dogs, especially males. I notice the ones who generally are more social with people and make friend with people easily, and even some that are better making friends with the other males dogs in pack (though I see this less) Are generally the more confident dogs in themselves and tend to be very sure of themselves when a conflict does arise. 

With Females, when a strong female comes in, I see the other females give her a wide berth and allow her to make the first greeting. And generally the other females allow her to do as she wishes in terms of sniffing and what not.

Now, I have seen the dogs that are the clowns, and always are hanging out with the younger dogs seem to have a much high self-preservation instinct. they avoid conflict at all costs. 

I am not sure these are hard and fast or even true. but I have tried to watch dogs and see how they interact and those are some of the things I think I have noticed.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Me too ariel. In fact working with dogs a lot and spending a lot of time trying to understand why they do what thry do. I find myself often noticing similiar behavior in humans and how it parrallels between the two.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Brian Anderson said:


> In fact working with dogs a lot and spending a lot of time trying to understand why they do what thry do. I find myself often noticing similiar behavior in humans and how it parrallels between the two.


 Very true. I am in graduate school and doing a thesis on bullying and cyber-bullying. I have observed that WDF and other message boards have in common is the "herd mentality."


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lindsay Janes said:


> Very true. I am in graduate school and doing a thesis on bullying and cyber-bullying. I have observed that WDF and other message boards have in common is the "herd mentality."


Don't you mean the 'pack mentality' ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

actually i try to avoid comparing species completely 
don't forget a dog can't recognize themselves in a mirror and we will never be able to smell a roach packed in a suitcase, no matter how real either one of em is 

i also avoid dog labels (green, real, hard, sensitive, stubborn, etc) ....and i realize it's almost impossible not to do when we start talking dogs

but in terms of training, it's hard enough to focus on getting an animal to do what you want them to do and the more developed its brain, the harder that becomes sometimes. it might seem that it would be easier to train a marine mammal (dolphin) since they have much more grey matter, but it often isn't. after they fart around and blow you off and get you frustrated, and then perform what you wanted faster and more efficiently, it's almost as if they are trying to tell you "why do it your way when my way is much better ?"

for me it's more of a mind game of getting into their head ... get them to do what YOU want them to do, but make em think it's what THEY want to do ... maybe too simplistic but works for me; probably just old age creeping up faster every day


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Don't you mean the 'pack mentality' ?



Almost similar concept; depends on how it is used.. Mob mentality, pack mentality, herd mentality, etc.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lindsay Janes said:


> Very true. I am in graduate school and doing a thesis on bullying and cyber-bullying. I have observed that WDF and other message boards have in common is the "herd mentality."


 
And sometimes the Mob mentality is in bullies audience turning against him.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

While we are on the subject of bullies. I know that thier is a huge movement against bullies....and for good reason. There have been a few incidents of kids getting tormented to the point of suicide which is very sad. I am not sure I agree it's the bullies fault. And that brings me to my point. I was bullied by a kid in elementry school. But my response to the bully was life changing. I stood up to him. Without that bully I may never have become the person I am. I am grateful I had the experience. So I do have hard time buying that a Bully makes someone else kill themselves. A bully is responsible for his actions, which are whatever encompass the torment. but if the victim decides, on thier will to take thier own life. That's on them, Not on the bully. I know that may sound unempathetic but Millions of people have been bullied and dealt with it differently.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

James, 

I want you to know that I am not an expert on bullying and cyber-bullying like my professor, but I have done my research on it. If you want to know more about it, you are more than welcome to check Dr. Bauman's website. Also, I conducted a group session with middle school girls on bullying. We talked about the factors that contribute to bullying. I educated the girls how bullies target their victims and we talked about the role of each. You will be surprised to know how it works. 

The roles for bullying between female and male are different. I will discuss the role of the female hierarchy in the middle school setting. There is a "Queen" who has the power over everyone. The “Wannabes,” will do anything the queen tells them to do. The“ gossiper,” is responsible for spreading rumors. The “followers,” the queen likes and approves them. The “bystanders” do not want to get involved. The “target victims “are used to being bullied and finally accepted by the queen often bullies the “ victim.” 

Well, I disagree respectfully with some of your opinions. For one, I do believe that bullies contribute to the death of victims. They have pushed the victims out of their limits. They have used their power to control the victim. Some of them enjoy taunting the victim and will not stop unless the victim stands up for him or herself. 

Yes, you are right. Many people have been bullied for different reasons, but do they deserve to be bullied? I could see you would say yes because it helped you. It might not help others like it helped you. It seems like people tend to improve their self-esteem or relationship through having a positive interaction with other people rather than negativity. 

Sadly, the world works that way. My question is don’t you think that Hitler had a role like the Queen? He didn’t have to bully the Jews, but he influenced his lower class soldiers to do the dirty work. Isn’t the hierarchy that I described to you similar to his? Maybe the deaths of the Jewish people could have been prevented only if they chosen to fight back.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

If anyone is interested, here is info. 

http://www.cyberbullyingnews.com/2010/05/cyberbullying-experts-professor-sheri-bauman/


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This anti bulling stuff is out of hand and like most things the government get involved in is back firing. Ill give you an example. We slow down or stop bulling possibly making for a few kids to not commit suicide. But in turn thousands of kids are going to die young due to obesity. I mean picking on the fat kid is therapy, it makes the fat kid want to get skinny. Fat kids don’t even know there fat anymore so they just keep on eating. Its pretty simple to me 

Look at how this board went downhill after a few bullies were kicked off. Every post I read is gayer and gayer. I mean the past two I just read had James getting as metro as someone can about his sad but happy memoires. Then there was some post from Mike telling us about his love problems. Jeeesss.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> This anti bulling stuff is out of hand and like most things the government get involved in is back firing. Ill give you an example. We slow down or stop bulling possibly making for a few kids to not commit suicide. But in turn thousands of kids are going to die young due to obesity. I mean picking on the fat kid is therapy, it makes the fat kid want to get skinny. Fat kids don’t even know there fat anymore so they just keep on eating. Its pretty simple to me


 It has gotten out of hand already. We can't change other people, but ourselves. If we continue to control other, our relationships with them will get worse. No one likes to be controlled. 

If we want to influence someone, we have to engage it in positive ways. Often people are open to change when things are positive than negative. I think people have forgotten. 

Yes, lots of kids are dying because of obesity. Making fun of kids about their weight will not help them losing weight. If we want them to lose weight, we need to engage more positive interaction with them. Like encouraging, supporting, engaging, educating, etc. The best book I have ever read is Choice Theory by Dr. William Glasser. If anyone who wants to improve their relationship, should read his book. He explains about five needs that create our "quality world."

I think I have said it enough. :grin:


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> This anti bulling stuff is out of hand and like most things the government get involved in is back firing. Ill give you an example. We slow down or stop bulling possibly making for a few kids to not commit suicide. But in turn thousands of kids are going to die young due to obesity. I mean picking on the fat kid is therapy, it makes the fat kid want to get skinny. Fat kids don’t even know there fat anymore so they just keep on eating. Its pretty simple to me
> 
> Look at how this board went downhill after a few bullies were kicked off. Every post I read is gayer and gayer. I mean the past two I just read had James getting as metro as someone can about his sad but happy memoires. Then there was some post from Mike telling us about his love problems. Jeeesss.


You're kidding, right? You can't possibly believe that picking on someone for being fat will make them skinny or that kicking a couple people off the forum who enjoyed trying to make others feel stupid really has that big of an impact. Do you really think James or Mike would care what Jeff O. may have said about their posts? They both strike me as pretty confident guys who stand up for what they believe and aren't scared to be honest. As for me, I think Don's been doing his fair share of bullying. Where has that gotten him? The only thing that the bullies did around here was to discourage the new or less confident from asking questions for fear of looking stupid ...which kind of defeats the purpose of this board. 

People who are confident and secure don't need to prey upon others to validate themselves. They can take those who are less confident under their wing and motivate them to be better rather than criticize them and continue to break them down.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> The only thing that the bullies did around here was to discourage the new or less confident from asking questions for fear of looking stupid ...which kind of defeats the purpose of this board.
> 
> People who are confident and secure don't need to prey upon others to validate themselves. They can take those who are less confident under their wing and motivate them to be better rather than criticize them and continue to break them down.


Let the week stay week no reason to artificially prop them up and yes there are fat people who lost weight because they got heat 
 

I agree to the secod half, catch 22


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Let the week stay week no reason to artificially prop them up and yes there are fat people who lost weight because they got heat
> 
> 
> I agree to the secod half, catch 22


We are humans, not dogs. If your child is seriously ill, do you just let him suffer through it and let nature take it's course? If your son was bad at something, would you constantly remind him how awful he was or would you try to encourage success and reward progress? 

We are social creatures. As much as some might hate to admit, on some level, we need acceptance and validation. If you spent your whole life being told how much you suck, at some point you'd break down. Nature vs. nurture. Some are stronger than others, but no normal person can sustain constant criticism and not show ill effects. I'm sure there are some fat people who felt bad and lost weight to feel better. But how many times have you seen or heard of fat people who got even fatter because eating was a comfort for when they were feeling bad?

I appreciate strong, capable people and imagine if mankind did function like animals, our species may be better off from a strictly scientific physiological standpoint. However, I also realize this is not reasonable. We care for our sick and dying. The less physically capable often excel in areas that require greater mental ability. Why not focus on what people are good at and encourage them to be better? I'm not for blowing smoke up someone's ass and praising ineptitude, but I'm all for rewarding what's right and helping people to get better. We can't kill the weak or let them die ...and I know there have been plenty of times that I've been weak and appreciated any support I could get. 

That is all. I'm off my soap box now.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

No id do everything I could for my kids as most parents would… unfortunately I don’t think this make for the strongest breeds. Fat people who eat more for comfort are a mess. What do you want me to tell you? Glad your off the soap box


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> No id do everything I could for my kids as most parents would… unfortunately I don’t think this make for the strongest breeds. Fat people who eat more for comfort are a mess. What do you want me to tell you? Glad your off the soap box


 
You can tell me whatever you'd like. You're posting your views, I'm posting mine. I thought that was the point.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Fat people who eat more for comfort are a mess.


I don't agree with that statement at all. Putting somebody down or making fun of someone brings more harms than good. Maybe one day your kid will be overweight, what will you do then? 

Good Luck.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Humans and dogs have been intertwined for thousands of years, they are both social mammals. I have seen documentries claim that Humans are what they are today because of their partnership with dogs. I for one believe there are many traits that are shared with dogs. Humans have base emotions as do dogs. We have evolved knowledge of our emotions as most likely have dolphins who also share self awareness, dogs don't but it doesnt mean they dont express them at some level. I have had a lot of dogs over the years and I believe this is so regardless of whether anybody else does. LOL.

Humans can be conditioned too. More complicated than dogs obviously but the potential for conditioning is there.

As to bullying, I had some of that because I was always the new kid from a different country. I also had the like doing things my own way gene regardless of what everyone else was doing. I was shy but determined to suit myself and do my own thing which made me somewhat immune to bullying. I had no interest in the "queens" what so ever and ignored them with some contempt. I had my own interests and friends outside of school and was elated to finally leave school and pursue my own interests on my own terms. 

Some other kids however were made differently and suffered, they didnt have the capcity to stand up for themselves or the ability to pursue interests outside of school.  I dont think it was particularly good for some of them in the long run having met a few some years after school. 

There wernt too many fat kids back in my day, but I have to doubt that bullying makes kids lose weight., maybe some, but for others it could be catastrophic I would think. On the other hand I know a girl who was a fat kid at school and is still a fat woman but she is extroverted, opionated and good at what she does and is quite happy with her weight. She wasn't bullied at school either because of her personality.

I think dogs have similar ranges of personalities in a more basic emotional way. I have certainly observed with my dogs over the years. I have dogs that are easily bullied and dogs that are immune to bullying because they turn the other cheek and casually carry on doing what they were doing, they usually have size on their side and the bullier eventually moves off.

I have a dog that is a queen and happy extroveted confident dog that is happy to go along with the queen untill the queen tries to pinch their food like she does with everyone else and suddenly she finds herself nailed to the floor. Guess who is the only dog my queen doesnt try and pinch food from. LOL

Dogs are pretty good at sensing weakness and will exploit as do humans.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lindsay Janes said:


> James,
> 
> I want you to know that I am not an expert on bullying and cyber-bullying like my professor, but I have done my research on it. If you want to know more about it, you are more than welcome to check Dr. Bauman's website. Also, I conducted a group session with middle school girls on bullying. We talked about the factors that contribute to bullying. I educated the girls how bullies target their victims and we talked about the role of each. You will be surprised to know how it works.
> 
> ...


 
Lindsay, some people bring things upon themselves. That's a fact in life. But I do not believe everyone who is bullied deserves it, nor do I think it's right. And just because it may in the end make a person better, that defintly does not make me believe people deserve it. But Bullies are a fact of life. I think that reiforcing the idea that person at the shitty end of the stick is a victim or is being controlled is doing them no favors. Because in reality, no one can control unless you allow it. No one can destroy or make your self-esteem. The word SELF in self-esteem is important. 

I also am a firm believer that the only person responsible for someones actions is that person, a bully is responsible for things he does as a bully. But how a person deals with it...that's on them. Bullies cannot make some kill them self. That's why it's called killing yourself. because you (as in the person doing it) did it.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And not to make light of Hitler and the holocaust. But I find that they way Hitler ran things is they way a military is run. Yes it sports simliar hierarchy. But I am not going to compare a school yard bully with Hilter. Theres a difference between being a little asshole, and staging one of the most brutual genocides the planets ever seen.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Here's my take on bullying.

Take a quiet, good-natured dog and back tie on a very short tie so he cannot retreat. Apply some pressure from a strong decoy. If that doesn't get a response, try flanking the dog until he fights back or responds. Never let up on the pressure. Never reward. Do you think that makes a dog stronger? Is that a good way to bring out the best in a dog? How long do you think before you have to drag the dog to the tie out for bitework? Or before he won't even get out of the crate to go to the training area.

To me that's what schoolyard bullying is. A good dose of psychological pressure with some physical thrown in, too, in a situation a child can't escape from. Five days a week. Every week, for months. Yup, some may be able to cope, some are just overwhelmed by it. 

And Chris. Does your child get straight As at school? Tell him he's stupid and lazy and see if that makes him study more/harder. Because that's about as effective a strategy for acedemic success as mocking and ridiculing fat people is for weight loss.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Here's my take on bullying.
> 
> Take a quiet, good-natured dog and back tie on a very short tie so he cannot retreat. Apply some pressure from a strong decoy. If that doesn't get a response, try flanking the dog until he fights back or responds. Never let up on the pressure. Never reward. Do you think that makes a dog stronger? Is that a good way to bring out the best in a dog? How long do you think before you have to drag the dog to the tie out for bitework? Or before he won't even get out of the crate to go to the training area.
> 
> ...


That is a good description. I have a dog that was bullied by a previous owner. He is a very stable friendly dog but was reduced to having practically zero confidence. It has taken awhile but he is now running beautifully for me in agility, but it has been a major confidence building exercise.

I also have a teenage niece who is currently being bullied at school. She is a pretty, smart and an extroverted confident child who has recently been subject to intense bullying and isolation from a group of girls led by a one time friend. Unfortunately her best friend has just moved to another school so she is dealing with this on her own. It got to the stage where she didnt want to go to school and this from child who loves school.

She is fortunate to have a group of friends outside the school but it has been very stressful for her. For a child with no other backup it would be terrible. 

I personally dont think it is as simple as not allowing oneself to be bullied especially in situations where you actually have no power and nowhere to go and the bullying is intense, isolating and prolonged, especially as children who are already subject to intense peer pressure and lack maturity and experience.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I got bullied, and was a bully also (not as bad as some) mainly poking fun at, a couple wet willies and stuff...a few punches here and there, when I was real young...

One kid we used to pick on in 6th grade, had 3 brothers all in our school..2 were older..

I went fishing once with a buddy, in an isolated forest lake, and looked up and saw him and his 3 brothers...after my best friend took off, they proceeded to hold me, so the one kid could beat me up...

that kinda changed my tune a little...

another time I was bullied, I finally snapped in 8th grade, and took a couple swings at the bully, hit him in the stomach, and the face...he then stepped in and dropped me with one good punch to the stomach...
so I still lost that fight, but we did become friends after that somewhat..

I vaguely remember always picking on this one kid in 3rd 4th grade..punched him more than a couple times on his way home...funny thing was, we were pretty good friends in high school....

when I was younger, could be wrong, it seemed the bullying was spread all around, just not as serious and relentless as it seems these days, but I could be 100% wrong, as I was never seriously bullied for long periods, and never was a serious bully....in my opinion...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> Here's my take on bullying.
> 
> Take a quiet, good-natured dog and back tie on a very short tie so he cannot retreat. Apply some pressure from a strong decoy. If that doesn't get a response, try flanking the dog until he fights back or responds. Never let up on the pressure. Never reward. Do you think that makes a dog stronger? Is that a good way to bring out the best in a dog? How long do you think before you have to drag the dog to the tie out for bitework? Or before he won't even get out of the crate to go to the training area.
> 
> ...


 
This is the hard part arguing about this stuff. Because I have gotten into it before. There are people whom predicate the victim role. The idea the child is as powerless as a chained up dog is not accurate. The child has many, many resources to try. The dog is truley at the mercy of his bully, he has no one to tell, no where to go. 

The bully is easy to blame...and the bullied easy to feel sorry for. But I think if we keep telling junior there is nothing wrong him and that other kid is just a big meany...I am sorry, but that's not the last bully junior is going to meet in his life. Bullies are fact of life, So instead of trying to eradicate the problem, which I believe is going to be with us till the end of time, We equip the bullied to handle thier buisness. Tell them they were a vicitim once, and now everytime they allow it to happen they are a volunteer. I mean that's what I will teach my kids. I also will teach them, that I have thier back, I will not let them walk alone to face the bully by themself if they can't. But I will not accept them just allowing themselves to be degraded. Because maybe that's not as evident as a bully...but that's a problem in the kid. Normal people do not allow people to humilate them and physically assualt them...even if it means taking an ass whooping in an effort to stop it. 


I guess whether you believe you are powerless against a bully or not...either way your right.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Out of curiosity did you ever apologize to kids who were bullied by you? When a kid used to be bullied, he or she is likely to became the bully later on. It is not always true, but it can happen. Sometimes they feel like the only way they can re-take their powers back from being helpless is to target the weak ones. 

If bullying is a problem at your current school, the best approach is speak with a guidance counselor, parents, principal, and teachers. Getting school officials involved can prevent the bullying, early intervention is key.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i think bullying is a modern sociological issue ... we never had bullying around our school or local (mixed races) neighborhood when i grew up
- and that does not mean there weren't fights (lots of those) .... and i didn't go to some sheltered school for rich kids or special people
- but i think the reason it never became a problem was because teachers had much more authority back then (50's) and did a lot more with students besides feed them academics and talk about self esteem
- plus i think sports solved a lot of problems before they started

bullying became a HUGE issue in Japan with a lot of media attention about ten years ago due to a few child suicides ... of course suicides are more common in this society but were never seen at that age level
- my wife and i had a problem with our kid (he was big for his age and was being bullied by the older kids) .... i ended up going to the school and BULLIED the hell out of the principal and a few teachers  ... to me the entire problem was because teachers were weak and weren't seeing what was going on, but don't know if that's a problem in todays schools in the states.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

James Downey said:


> The bully is easy to blame...and the bullied easy to feel sorry for.


 When a kid became the bully, he or she was bullied before. Truthfully, it is an adult problem too. I don't treat the bullying as if it's the kid's fault, but he or she is responsible for his or her bad behaviors. 

Many factors can contribute to a kid becoming the bully. Like if a parent bullied his or her kid, the kid could become the bully. Adults bully young people. Young people bully adults and each other. Kids learned a lot from their parents and peers. If the parents have threatened someone in front of their children, the kids naturally imitate the behaviors of their parents.


Here is the bullying statistics for anyone who wants to know more about it.

"If anyone believes that bullying doesn’t take it’s toll on families, schools, and society take a look at the statistics below. Read through to the end and notice the cost for companies in dealing with this problem on the job. Who is paying for all of this? School districts now how to budget for bullying programs. That’s tax dollars that get spent just trying to make sure that people are treated with respect. Something we all should do freely, without the imposition of consequences.

60% of middle school students say that they have been bullied, while 16% of staff believe that students are bullied.

160,000 students stay home from school everyday due to bullying. (NEA)

30% of students who reported they had been bullied said they had at times brought weapons to school.

A bully is 6 times more likely to be incarcerated by the age of 24.

A bully is 5 times more likely to have a serious criminal record when he grows up.

* 2/3 of students who are targets become bullies.*

20% of all children say they have been bullied.

20% of high school students say they have seriously considered suicide with the last 12 months.

25% of students say that teachers intervened in bullying incidents while 71% of teachers say they intervened.

The average child has watched 8,000 televised murders and 100,000 acts of violence before finishing elementary school.

* In schools where there are bullying programs bullying is reduced by 50%.*

12. Bullying was a factor in 2/3 of the 37 school shootings reviewed by the US Secret

Service.

13. According to the National Institute of Occupational Safety Health (NIOSH)

(Sauter, et al.,1990), there is a loss of employment amounting to $19 billion and a

drop in productivity of $3 billion due to workplace bullying.

14. Law enforcement costs related to bullying are enormous. Since 1999, the Office

on Violence against Women (OVW) has spent $98 million in assistance to

address campus sexual violence."


http://behavioral-management.com/bullying-statistics


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think everyone is everything at some point in thier life. So, I have been bullied and been the bullier...there are times that I have felt shame about actions and tried to right my wrongs the best I could. There are those that I may have tormented in school that I cannot speak to anymore because we have lost touch. The best I can do in that situation is make a selfless action for a person who may be subjected to behavior similar that I subjected someone too.

Also, I think there is some degree of bullying that is a immature child acting maybe inappropriately but very normally. Like Joby said, a little teasing, maybe a sucker punch in the arm. I think this probably goes a quick it comes, and is not driven by the same motivators that a Bully who torments someone day after day with more malicious acts. 

But I think I was probably more the first example, you know in effort to try and be cool or accepted, I behaved poorly...And this did not sit me with me very well. It's not something I could do on a regular basis and be okay with myself. Where as the more extreme bully probably has very little empathy for his fellow humans.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

I was not bullied, but I did not have many friends when I was young. I used to avoid cafeteria because I didn't want to sit by myself. The kids at my old school never invited me to their birthday parties, events, or anywhere. I never went to a school dance, or to the prom. I am not trying to get someone to feel sorry for me, but I was lucky that they didn't do anything bad to me. I prefer to be ignored than be a target. 

I think they were uncomfortable with me because I am deaf and they don't know how to sign. I can't speak well. Some people are uncomfortable being friend with someone who is different from them. I was never the popular girl at my old school until I went to school for the deaf. The experience at the school for the deaf was positive for me.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Ariel,

My take dealing with societies misunderstood humans and finding out what and who they are is to look them in the eyes one on one in conversation, no friends, and no crowd around for them to impress.

Here on the net, behind the computer you can be anyone you want. Kind of like the Aerosmith song/video of Sweet Emotion....she sounds so sexy and sweet yet....she is... Yes, some of us here know each other and have trained with each other not everyone has.

I sense he may be baiting you just to aggravate you and get under your skin. Even this greenhorn to dog psychology and dog training knows that most of Don's posts do not make sense but hey who am I to judge the ole' geezer.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

rick smith said:


> actually i try to avoid comparing species completely
> don't forget a dog can't recognize themselves in a mirror and we will never be able to smell a roach packed in a suitcase, no matter how real either one of em is
> 
> i also avoid dog labels (green, real, hard, sensitive, stubborn, etc) ....and i realize it's almost impossible not to do when we start talking dogs
> ...



^ agree with this... unfortunately probably the last line too :-({|=


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

tracey delin said:


> ^ agree with this... unfortunately probably the last line too :-({|=


That last line of Ricks applies to people too! The best way to get someone to do something you want is to make them think that it was thier idea in the first place LOL


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Might as well get in this to say I agree with Rick, but I was bullied in 3rd grade by a 4th grader who weighed 125# I use to race to & from the bus. One day I threw him over my shoulder in a Judo move breaking his arm. After that I bullied him because I learned to stand up and take a butt whipping but I would stay on him no matter what until he gave up. Now having said all that I think times have changed and if you examined by generation vs now you'd find people learned not to be victims. You can't be controlled unless you allow it. Now let's talk about our present government! Don't be victimized, count the costs if you are!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The problem with standing up to the bullies is that in some schools BOTH will receive the same punishment for fighting. That happened to my son in 7th or 8th grade....but he said the detention was worth it because the crap stopped. I kept telling him to go for it. The wife disagreed. I won! :twisted:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Well girls can be a lot more sublte and devious in their bullying, it is not a question of just fighting it out. It is often about subtle exclusion and can be hard to counter as a teenager.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Interesting. What I noticed is that a lot of those that were pushed around in school became LE. That is one side of the coin. The other was that a lot of the ones that did the pushing also became LE.


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