# Picking my next dog



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Originally I wanted a working doberman, but ended up with an 8month old rescue Cane Corso. He's now creeping up on 4yrs old and while he's been keeping me fairly busy, I'm finding he's starting to slow down. He's not as nutty as he used to be which is a quality I both loved and at times hated. I've taken care of hundreds of dogs and he's been by far one for the biggest PIA but just as rewarding when things go well. We've worked through a number of issues and he is now becoming an awesome dog. As we've been getting involved in more training, I'm starting to find his lack of constant explosive energy frustrating. I don't expect him to be capable to work and train for hours straight without a break, he might be a nut, but he's still a mastiff breed, but even with breaks in between he really doesn't last very long and doesn't maintain that bouncy nutty energy which makes working with him so fun. We're currently doing Schutzhund and Flyball, starting up in Agility, getting into Rally-O. We've dabbled in DockDiving, hope to do more of that next summer, we also did a bit of herding and he got his HIC. 

I've been daydreaming more and more about adding another dog, one that would have the energy to do it all. I never wanted such a giant dog to begin with and especially having him now I would prefer the other dog to be on a smaller side of the working dogs. I want a dog that is very driven and loves to work when it's time to, but will settle down and won't drive me mental at home. The dog would have to be good with other dogs (as I run a doggy daycare) and people (while he doesn't have to be Mr.Social, I don't want a dog that would be unreliable). I want a dog that would be very environmentally sound, have rock solid nerves (don't want a psycho or a scardy cat). Just all around stable, reliable dog I could take every where. 

I'm thinking a smaller sized Mali or a Dutchie, with a preference on the Dutchie. Don't really have a preference in male or female as long as they fit my criteria. Not particularly set on a puppy or young adult, pros and cons to both. I'm starting to casually read up on breeders and what's available out there. Would love to hear some input from some of you more experienced people and some help to point me in the right directions. 

Any feedback and suggestions much appreciated!

Should I plan on visiting the breeder or do most of you working folks buy your dogs shipped unseen based on a pedigree or parents that you like? Are there particular lines or breeders that I should stay away from or persue, how about KNPV dogs? I've seen a number of reject dogs advertised, especially if the breeder has done a lot of socialization and foundation work with the pups thinking they could be a working potential, that sounds like it could be a good option (unless the dog is a reject because they are overly shy), any advice on going that route?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Agility, flyball, Rally-O, dock diving. I would be looking at the breeds that excell at this kind of activity that don't have any penchant for biting. Sounds like you are looking to fit a well rounded dog into a square hole having a dog day care and such.

I just got a pup from across country sight unseen and while he is different in many ways from my lines, he is a great dog. I did know the breeder personally and have watch dogs of this breeding for many years.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Why not look at getting a Doberman? I feel they are a great "jack of all trades" kinda breed. I have done a ton of different sports with my Dobes; My older female has been titled in Sch, herding, Obedience, Agility and even did some pet therapy work. She is an awesome take everywhere dog, and while she will run all day, she will acutally come and lay on the couch for the evening with no problem....even if she isn't exhausted. 

My Male is doing awesome in Schutzhund right now and while not the BEST dog for the sport, he will do well and also excel in different venue's as my female did. 

I have a 12 month old Mal now, and while he is a blast to train, he never quits. If I don't want to be entertaining him, he goes to his kennel, or a crate. He is super social and really stable but that off switch just ain't there like it is with the Dobermans. 

I bought my Male Doberman and Mal puppy sight unseen from the breeders. They sent them to me based on what they knew about me and what I communicated to them that I was looking for. So far both have been working out great!!!

Good luck with the search for a new dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

One thing I have never seen mentioned Marta, regardless of the breeder. Does the breeder intervene on behalf of the weak pups to save them. Seems to me to be a critical point because if they do, they are breeding for profit....not sound dogs. Also, if they intervene and save the pups that would have otherwise not made it......chances are that you are going to be the one paying big bucks for, less than a quality pup.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

don turnipseed said:


> one thing i have never seen mentioned marta, regardless of the breeder. Does the breeder intervene on behalf of the weak pups to save them. Seems to me to be a critical point because if they do, they are breeding for profit....not sound dogs. Also, if they intervene and save the pups that would have otherwise not made it......chances are that you are going to be the one paying big bucks for, less than a quality pup.



amen


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Don, are you suggesting I get a Sheltie for Schutzhund because I'm also interested in doing Agility with the dog?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

No Marta. but your preference for DS and Mals in your situation may be a bit overboard IMO. It depends really in what you are into the most but a lot of obedience seems to be involved. Out of the dogs mentioned I would pick a good stable Dobe if there are any around. Having a doggy daycare is what complicates this because many of the German breeds have no problem setting upon smaller dogs they know they can whip. That is why I stressed stable dobe.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> One thing I have never seen mentioned Marta, regardless of the breeder. Does the breeder intervene on behalf of the weak pups to save them. Seems to me to be a critical point because if they do, they are breeding for profit....not sound dogs. Also, if they intervene and save the pups that would have otherwise not made it......chances are that you are going to be the one paying big bucks for, less than a quality pup.


Don I dont look at it that way. I can absolutley say I do not breed for profit. I average one litter every two years. My last litter I only sold one puppy, the rest I either gave to clubmates at NO charge or put in homes for possibly breeding them when they are older. 
I will try to help a pup who might not be as strong to feed as the others, as I take responsibility for the wellbeing as I put things in motion to bring them into the world. Not only that but the reason they might not be strong could be due to a long and protracted labour, nothing to do with their genes. And I can guarentee you Don, no one has a higher standard of what they expect from genetics than I do.
So Don, if your female needed a c-section, would you interveen to help her and the pups or would you say a female who cant deliver naturally shouldnt be in the genepool and neither should her offspring? Would the person who tries to save the pups via c-section also be doing so for profit?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Don I dont look at it that way. I can absolutley say I do not breed for profit. I average one litter every two years. My last litter I only sold one puppy, the rest I either gave to clubmates at NO charge or put in homes for possibly breeding them when they are older.
> I will try to help a pup who might not be as strong to feed as the others, as I take responsibility for the wellbeing as I put things in motion to bring them into the world. Not only that but the reason they might not be strong could be due to a long and protracted labour, nothing to do with their genes. And I can guarentee you Don, no one has a higher standard of what they expect from genetics than I do.
> So Don, if your female needed a c-section, would you interveen to help her and the pups or would you say a female who cant deliver naturally shouldnt be in the genepool and neither should her offspring? Would the person who tries to save the pups via c-section also be doing so for profit?


Christopher, I am not at all surprised. I have been sitting here having lunch debating how detailed an answer to give you because I really like reading your posts that don't involve breeding. I have never seen a hobby breeder that does agree with me. They are the only ones that breed solely for the love of the breed....it is everyone else that are money grubbing breeders for profit. Hobby breeders have crowned themselves the totally responsible breeders and save every pup they can.... then blame the fact the the health of the breeds is going downhill, and picking up speed, on all the backyard breeders. They accept the fact their bitches have to have c- sections and breed them anyway so they, all by themselves have produced countless generations of bitches that need c sections.

Chistopher, here you are, throwing that responsible(ity) word around like a true hobby breeder. So you have a responsiblity to the pups you bring into this world....I see that that relieves you of the responsibility of breeding the soundest, strongest dogs you can and keeping that gene pool, that you profess to have such high standards for, strong.. You can't have it both ways Chistopher. So, I am going to ask you a question I have put to many breeders and no one has even replied. "How is being a responsible breeder and saving the weak good for any breed?? I would not even consider buying a dog from someone that practice intervention with their pups because I don't want one that needed intervention.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

> So Don, if your female needed a c-section, would you interveen to help her and the pups or would you say a female who cant deliver naturally shouldnt be in the genepool and neither should her offspring?[/


QUOTE]

Don, was that a no then? Do you intervene to assist then knock her on the head, or does she live or die on her own accord?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I didn't answer that on purpose Maggie. My stance should have been clear from my response concerning c sections. Addressing the birthing problem early on, "responsibly", has resulted in not seeing any problems for years. I guess it really just boils down to whether people want to be responsible to their feelings and what others think or the dogs while they chant "we do it for the good of the breed..."


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Christopher, I am not at all surprised. I have been sitting here having lunch debating how detailed an answer to give you because I really like reading your posts that don't involve breeding. I have never seen a hobby breeder that does agree with me. They are the only ones that breed solely for the love of the breed....it is everyone else that are money grubbing breeders for profit. Hobby breeders have crowned themselves the totally responsible breeders and save every pup they can.... then blame the fact the the health of the breeds is going downhill, and picking up speed, on all the backyard breeders. They accept the fact their bitches have to have c- sections and breed them anyway so they, all by themselves have produced countless generations of bitches that need c sections.
> 
> Chistopher, here you are, throwing that responsible(ity) word around like a true hobby breeder. So you have a responsiblity to the pups you bring into this world....I see that that relieves you of the responsibility of breeding the soundest, strongest dogs you can and keeping that gene pool, that you profess to have such high standards for, strong.. You can't have it both ways Chistopher. So, I am going to ask you a question I have put to many breeders and no one has even replied. "How is being a responsible breeder and saving the weak good for any breed?? I would not even consider buying a dog from someone that practice intervention with their pups because I don't want one that needed intervention.


Im in no way making a judgement on you or what you do with your breeding Don. I fully agree that poor quality animals with health problems should not be bred from and should be taken from the genepool. Some people will do this by taking them out the back and hitting them in the head with a shovel, whereas I would most likely get them desexed and put them in a pet home. If I had a female who had issues with always needing a c-section I would not breed from her again, but I would get her and her pups to the vet for help if she needed it. I dont like to see suffering, especially when I also feel responsible for the pups and the bitch who I put in that situation. 
My main issue was that you had the idea that the motivation for myself to do it would be profit driven, where its isnt. I have spent over $50,000 US importing and bringing in my dogs bloodlines with Dutch Shepherds. I have sold one pup for $900 and had one litter. I spent around $50,000 importing German Shepherds into Australia. I had a total of 5 litters and then stopped breeding them alltogether because I did not like what I saw from German Shepherds. I think my motivations for breeding are in the right place. I also think your motivations for breeding are also in the right place.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher, I didn't take it like you were judging me.....just disagreeing on a point. Many of my views are a direct result from how I breed. I will see the results of a poor choice in a couple of generations where, using the hobby breeder method, it may take 25 to 30 years, maybe longer, to see the devastating effect of that same poor choice. This makes it really easy to assume there was no mistake made and the breeder that made it will be retired and unaffected. Mother nature rules and she says the offspring have to be able to survive in their own. I intervened for the first couple of years. Until I noticed that the ones I intervened with were never up to oar with the sibs.
As far as the birthing problems. Putting a bitch down at 3 years cost way more in time, money and breeding plans scrapped than the c section cost.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No Marta. but your preference for DS and Mals in your situation may be a bit overboard IMO. It depends really in what you are into the most but a lot of obedience seems to be involved. Out of the dogs mentioned I would pick a good stable Dobe if there are any around. Having a doggy daycare is what complicates this because many of the German breeds have no problem setting upon smaller dogs they know they can whip. That is why I stressed stable dobe.



Is that your only objection? The dog would in no way be allowed or would be put in a position where it would be able to beat up on a little dog. I deal with that all to often already with clients' dogs, some of who have very high prey drives (one whippet comes to mind in particular who if given a chance would chase down, grab by the neck, and shake any thing that's small fluffy and moves). Dog management would not be an issue and the dog could be separated if the need be, I have had to do that on multiple occasions with my Corso for a number of reasons. In fact I wouldn't want the dog to be byddying it up with the other dogs the entire time, last thing I want is a dog that blows me off because it would rather go play with Fifi.


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## Alex Pitawanakwat (Sep 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Hobby breeders have crowned themselves the totally responsible breeders and save every pup they can.... then blame the fact the the health of the breeds is going downhill, and picking up speed, on all the backyard breeders. They accept the fact their bitches have to have c- sections and breed them anyway so they, all by themselves have produced countless generations of bitches that need c sections.



You don't have to cull a dog to remove it from the gene pool, you could simply neuter it. I personally wouldn't buy a puppy from a breeder who did NOT intervene on behalf of a weaker puppy, that is not my interpretation of "responsible."


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Alex Pitawanakwat said:


> You don't have to cull a dog to remove it from the gene pool, you could simply neuter it. I personally wouldn't buy a puppy from a breeder who did NOT intervene on behalf of a weaker puppy, that is not my interpretation of "responsible."


That's great Alex....and the reason I won't sell my dogs with breeding rights. Most people got no business breeding because their feelings get in the way of common sense. By the way, I don't cull my pups....I just leave them with mom and dad and the strong survive on their own. Probably why they are never sick and don't need a vet for life support.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Marta Haus said:


> Is that your only objection? The dog would in no way be allowed or would be put in a position where it would be able to beat up on a little dog. I deal with that all to often already with clients' dogs, some of who have very high prey drives (one whippet comes to mind in particular who if given a chance would chase down, grab by the neck, and shake any thing that's small fluffy and moves). Dog management would not be an issue and the dog could be separated if the need be, I have had to do that on multiple occasions with my Corso for a number of reasons. In fact I wouldn't want the dog to be byddying it up with the other dogs the entire time, last thing I want is a dog that blows me off because it would rather go play with Fifi.


Been my experience Marta, a good dog won't blow you off to go play with Fido unless she is in heat. Good dogs are not at all i timidated by people and enjoy being with them. Weaker dogs are more comfortable with their own kind and will blow you off. If you got a dog that will blow ypou off to play with the other dogs then you can figure you don't have a geat dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Alex, because of your view I have to ask.....if I told you you were lucky and a pup lived because I intervened....would you still want to buy it???

It also occurred to me that you are a breeder that saves the weak and took offence to what I said possibly??


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That's great Alex....and the reason I won't sell my dogs with breeding rights.


How could you possibly control that ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nothing can really be controlled Gerry. It does take the value out of breeding them....unless the got extra papers to put on them. Nothing is fool proof but they never get to breed the weak from here. Nor do I profit from them. When they sell the weak they are profiting from it.

There is a lot opf BS in the dog world Gerry. Look at tne testing discussion. Hips elboes and such. I can tell you that the reason the vast majority do it is because they want to be accepted as being responsible. That just means testing but they breed to the dogs anyway. It is just a cover so they feel good.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Been my experience Marta, a good dog won't blow you off to go play with Fido unless she is in heat. Good dogs are not at all i timidated by people and enjoy being with them. Weaker dogs are more comfortable with their own kind and will blow you off. If you got a dog that will blow ypou off to play with the other dogs then you can figure you don't have a geat dog.


That's an interesting take Don and one I tend to lean to myself, although I think relationship and training can be a factor to consider, maybe personality/ breed trait too?


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Marta get a good GSD if you want to do Schutzhund. GSD are also good at dock diving and herding. 

You do need to focus on one sport at a time with your new dog if you want to be really good at it. If you are really serious about training for Schutzhund, you won't have time to train for all of those other things. However, if Schutzhund is just for socializing then it doesn't matter what dog you get. 

Ask some people at your Schutzhund club what breeder to go with (which ones to avoid), successes and failures. There are a few lines that are great. Perhaps you can find a pup locally and some of the people from your club can go with you to test the pup. If you have one shipped than work out a contract with the breeder that allows you to have the pup tested and the ability to return the pup in 14 days (for a full refund) if after health tests and temperament tests the pup is not up to standard. Training for Schutzhund is a long, tedious process and you want to start with the best pup you can find (and afford).

Do keep in mind that a good working GSD can be expensive, they can be over the top drivey, some handler aggressive and often novices have a difficult time with a true working line pup.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Been my experience Marta, a good dog won't blow you off to go play with Fido unless she is in heat. Good dogs are not at all i timidated by people and enjoy being with them. Weaker dogs are more comfortable with their own kind and will blow you off. If you got a dog that will blow ypou off to play with the other dogs then you can figure you don't have a geat dog.


I agree with your statement 100%. A good working dog is focused on its handler and wants to please and work for its handler. To compete in Schutzhund you want a dog that wants to work for you and is focused on you. Otherwise its an uphill battle trying to establish a relationship with a dog that does not want to work. I have too noticed that dogs that would rather be with their own kind are weak, insecure and have a difficult time engaging in bite work.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Thanks Mike. I did bring this up recently at my club, said what I was looking for in my next dog, and I was suggested a local Mal breeder who I have contacted and I'm waiting on a reply. So far from speaking to various people locally I'm starting to hear that finding a reliable Dutchie to fit my needs might be more difficult and a Mal might be a better choice just because there are more proven/reliable/known breeders and the two breeds are so similar anyways. I have a couple other leads on breeders I need to look into. 

I'm really enjoying SchH however I can only make it to the club once per week (although I can spend almost the entire day there once I get there) which is limiting. I have long work hours, although I am able to have the dog with me and train during the day, just can't make it to the club during the week. The agility place on the other hand is very close by and their hours work perfectly with mine. The training is fun and we have been able to apply a lot of the methods from Agility to SchH, like shaping with great success, so being involved in multiple sports has had it's advantages. I can also use their jumps and A-frames to train for the SchH obedience. My corso is a demanding dog that needs to be doing something and be continuously challenged, there is only so much we can do just training in my backyard and quite frankly we both get bored. 

I know that having a dog specializing in a single sport would be best, but I can't afford to have a house full of dogs specialized in each sport and don't want to. We're starting to experience some of our challenges from our cross training but we figure out ways to get around them.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Marta, club training in Schutzhund once per week will take many many years to get a dog ready to title (if at all). Typically people who train 2-3 times a week at club and everyday in between can get a pup through titling in 3-4 years (with the right dog). I would suggest to look very carefully at breed and pup selection so as the dog will not become a PITA to keep. 

Like the old saying goes, jack of all trades, master of none. Any sport that you take seriously will not offer much spare time to dabble in another. A little bit of this and a little bit of that ends up in a whole bunch of nothing, therefore pup selection is key so you dont end up with a super duper dog that will make your life difficult.


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