# No Ball Drive/started dog



## Scott LaRoe (Jan 13, 2011)

I just picked up a started dog to try out

He dont seem to have any ball drive what so ever

even a tug is hard to get him to work at he will tug but you have to really work to get him to want it

crazy about food I mean NUTS

he needs some work but 

Sits, Down Heel all pretty good 
Hits the sleeve hard 
Outs Great
very alert 
strong nerves 

He is a 2 year old big male GSD about 90 pounds

what you guys think is it hard or impossible to get ball drive


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Scott LaRoe said:


> I just picked up a started dog to try out
> 
> He dont seem to have any ball drive what so ever
> 
> ...


Cant get or put something in that ain't there, why not train with food? What would your goals be, if its high level Schutzhund it might be tough but by no meas imposable there's alto of great bite dogs that don't have ball drive that I take in a hart beat.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Scott LaRoe said:


> I just picked up a started dog to try out
> 
> He dont seem to have any ball drive what so ever
> 
> ...


Will the dog display any prey drive at all?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> Will the dog display any prey drive at all?


 
unfortunately now you may have to explain which type of prey you are talking about based on that other thread :mrgreen:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> unfortunately now you may have to explain which type of prey you are talking about based on that other thread :mrgreen:



Jody!! ](*,)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Maybe it's you or the prey object?
Does he show drive with a decoy?
Work with food for now and try different prey objects over time.
I have a 17 month old male GSD who showed very little ball or tug drive until recently. Finally he is very interested in a cheap rope ball I buy at Dollar Tree 
How long have you had him?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Scott LaRoe said:


> I just picked up a started dog to try out
> 
> He dont seem to have any ball drive what so ever
> 
> ...


so you have been training dogs since 9 years old, ran in national level retrieve at 16, and trained professional pointing dogs since 20 yrs old, and have been hunt testing labs for 3 yrs, and "picked up" a started dog for training, but did not throw anything for him to test him? 

just trying to get the facts straight....cause this really really sounds hinky to me...


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i'll say this , i have a am staff had NO ball drive at all , I mean NONE, NEVER , no matter what , but good food drive
i wanted to do flyball with him , i clicker trained him to retrive a ball , his ball drive is now better than most dogs i have seen 
to the point he will bust his body for a ball 
he as broken his front foot in flyball going at the ball so nuts , and busted out a couple teeth palying ball in the back yrd, smashes his face into the ground to get it , acidental flips trying to get it , its nuts, 
so i wouldnt say , you cant train what s not there, cuz, you can , 
but he is a pit bull and they are nuts ,,lol


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> i'll say this , i have a am staff had NO ball drive at all , I mean NONE, NEVER , no matter what , but good food drive
> i wanted to do flyball with him , i clicker trained him to retrive a ball , his ball drive is now better than most dogs i have seen
> to the point he will bust his body for a ball
> he as broken his front foot in flyball going at the ball so nuts , and busted out a couple teeth palying ball in the back yrd, smashes his face into the ground to get it , acidental flips trying to get it , its nuts,
> ...


Sorry but it sounds like it was there and you found a way to get it out, maybe your a good dog trainer:smile:


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

maybe but he was 1.5 yrs old when i finally started having to teach him it , prior to that there was nothing 

but ya , i am a good trainer, lol


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Originally Posted by Tammy St. Louis 


> i'll say this , i have a am staff had NO ball drive at all , I mean NONE, NEVER , no matter what , but good food drive
> i wanted to do flyball with him , i clicker trained him to retrive a ball , his ball drive is now better than most dogs i have seen
> to the point he will bust his body for a ball
> he as broken his front foot in flyball going at the ball so nuts , and busted out a couple teeth palying ball in the back yrd, smashes his face into the ground to get it , acidental flips trying to get it , its nuts,
> ...


Drives are inherent from birth..

if it was not there, you could not put it there, it was repressed or not focused and not developed, and your super awesome training brought it out or brought it back out if it was extinguished somehow...that is the only explanation. 

most nutty pitbulls I have seen have great prey drive, and prey drive can be focused on different objects, like balls or squirrels or both.

So you got the dog to focus on a ball after a year and a half of not "teaching" him to focus on it, and now he has more ball drive than most dogs you have ever seen...

and you now think that you can put drive into a dog that was not born with it...

I am here to say from every source I have researched, that is impossible.

I thought he was an amstaff...which is it? an amstaff or a pitbull, you called him both within one paragraph...or is it one of those amstaffs on paper that is part of a line that has been secretly bred as a pitbull for 75 years, when the split started occuring..


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## Scott LaRoe (Jan 13, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> so you have been training dogs since 9 years old, ran in national level retrieve at 16, and trained professional pointing dogs since 20 yrs old, and have been hunt testing labs for 3 yrs, and "picked up" a started dog for training, but did not throw anything for him to test him?
> 
> just trying to get the facts straight....cause this really really sounds hinky to me...


Noting Hinky about this at all. They really are 2 totally different animals 

The reason he is up for a home is because he has no ball drive

I can make any dog retrieve thats not a problem, give me 2 months I could Force him to get a ball Been Force Fetching bird dogs for years (thats not what I want)

I often have to remember there is always some one on these forums going to sit back bash and flame some one to death its the nature of forums

Keep this in mind this is the very first schutzhund style dog I have ever owned I thought I would get a Started do to learn some stuff with as i got a 10 week old puppy coming up 

THanks 
scott


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## Scott LaRoe (Jan 13, 2011)

Yeah he will chase it very little will not pick it up once he get to it

also he shows drive towards a helper/decoy


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I bought a hollow tug - you fill with food and velcro closed. (from leerburg) This was for a friends dog with some food drive and no prey drive, the combination of food and teaching tug taught the dog to have a toy drive, enough to work with but not what I would look for in a dog.

Maybe something like that would help with yours?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> so you have been training dogs since 9 years old, ran in national level retrieve at 16, and trained professional pointing dogs since 20 yrs old, and have been hunt testing labs for 3 yrs, and "picked up" a started dog for training, but did not throw anything for him to test him?
> 
> just trying to get the facts straight....cause this really really sounds hinky to me...


Beat me to the punch line, I was kinda wondering the samething and with the backround I would of thought that his nose would of been tested before anything else from your past experience.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> I bought a hollow tug - you fill with food and velcro closed. (from leerburg) This was for a friends dog with some food drive and no prey drive, the combination of food and teaching tug taught the dog to have a toy drive, enough to work with but not what I would look for in a dog.
> 
> Maybe something like that would help with yours?


 I was thinking the very same thing. It will be a trained response instead of natural drive though. For Sch it probably wont be enough. 

Is this a Showline GSD or Working line dog?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Scott LaRoe said:


> Yeah he will chase it very little will not pick it up once he get to it
> 
> also he shows drive towards a helper/decoy


Scott,

I think you have drive (at least enough to build on) What you don't have is engagement with you. Get the Michael Ellis DVD on Playing Tug with your dog or check out some of the clips on the Leerburg site. Also check out www.BowWowFlix.com to rent the Ellis DVD's
Try some different balls, tugs, frisbys, Kongs hoses etc to find something that interests the dog.
Also work on building a relationship with the dog before you worry about the training


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I had a GSD with very little prey drive. My Bostons are fruit cakes over a ball or any damn thing you have. I would put the GSD in the pen and let him watch the Bostons and me play. He had watched and learned from them, monkey see monkey do type thing. Mike is right too, if it isn't there you can't make it but if there is some there you can bring it out. JMO

I believe most if not all dogs have prey drive. Before humans they had to eat and now the drive is there they just don't need it or know that it's there. again JMO


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>I thought he was an amstaff...which is it? an amstaff or a pitbull, you called him both within one paragraph...or is it one of those amstaffs on paper that is part of a line that has been secretly bred as a pitbull for 75 years, when the split started occuring.

he is a registered am staff, i call him pit bull cuz some people dont know much what am staff is 
but a reg am staff can also be AKC reg APBT so does it matter really ?
I get that they are 2 different breeds I also have a APBT , but its just slang i was using really , and in the end , nobody cares except the die hard APBT breeders.. 
so we dont really need to go there do we..


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Well...we really don't "need to go there". But I can't help vent my frustration. I won't even comment on the AKC and the fact that Am Staffs are excepted and APBT's arent, UNLESS they actually need to put something worth a damn back in their lines..hahaha As far as the UKC I am very unhappy. They are showing Amstaffs and Pits in the same ring. So on any given day you can have a game bred, very nice Pit dog lose to an Amstaff. It is not fair at all and I believe they should separate the 2..on paper AND in the ring. This would also get rid of all the fake pitbulls...BULLYS as these idiots call them. Allthough I hear they have their own registry now, you still see ungodly big "bullies" showing up to UKC pitbull show rings. I have an Amstaff, that is actually registered as a pit, but is TOTALLY an amstaff and I have a pit that I work in Schutzhund. They are both beautiful dogs but have NO business in the same show ring. For the people like me that have both breeds in a ped, we should be able to decide wether to show our dog in the amstaff ring or pit ring. Just my 2 cents...I went there...SORRY!!


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## Scott LaRoe (Jan 13, 2011)

Harry Keely said:


> Beat me to the punch line, I was kinda wondering the samething and with the backround I would of thought that his nose would of been tested before anything else from your past experience.


Whats his nose have to do with chasing a ball i have seen dogs that will chase a bird to the end of the earth and couldnt smell it once it dropped

I got this dog to try out KNOWING he had very little to no ball drive 

its the reason they got rid of him... maybe I am confusing you guys or you are confusing me 

I didnt come to this site to have people bash me/sure hope all the schutzhund people aint like this
maybe I should just stick with what I know


Thanks to the folks that have answered nicely


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Scott, all Schutzhund people aren't like this. Most are very helpful... You need to find a club and a good TD to help guide you. There are SEVERAL DVD's on how to build ball/tug drive. Micheal Ellis has a great one. I know from experience that it is a very slow process with a dog like this and that there are MANY different ways you can get some ball drive out of him. One thing that worked good for my guy was putting him in his crate outside and playing tug with my other dogs. He got VERY jealous and saw how much fun we were having. Of course this took a while, and I will still play a little tug with another dog before we work every once in a while. You can also use the food and mark him even showing interest in the ball or tug. Just work slow.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Maybe try to roll the ball or tug in liver or another food that will stick to it. Also try a flirt pole. If hes chasing it when you throw it but then stops & doesn't pick it up it might not be interesting enough to him. Tie it to a flirt pole or long line, let him chase it, right before he gets there yank it away & game on again. Good luck


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Scott LaRoe said:


> Noting Hinky about this at all. They really are 2 totally different animals
> 
> The reason he is up for a home is because he has no ball drive
> 
> ...


thanks for the explanation, this forum has a few FAKE people on it that like to start up threads or make stupid posts, it seems you are not one of those, thanks for the explanation, was not really trying to FLAME anyone.

It just seemed to me if someone with that much dog experience was looking for a SCH prospect that was started already, they would have thrown a ball, and most people would pass on the dog if it had no interest in a ball...but that is not the case here...that's all, was just probing a little....sorry for coming off like that, there are a few Fake monikers here...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am not going to bash here Scott but this is what goes on. Just ignore 90 % and take what is usefull...or stick to bird training. So, why would you quit training bird dog to go into bite sports?


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## Scott LaRoe (Jan 13, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am not going to bash here Scott but this is what goes on. Just ignore 90 % and take what is usefull...or stick to bird training. So, why would you quit training bird dog to go into bite sports?


Its somthing I have always wanted to do 

every since I was young

one time I went to a outdoor show in Novi Michigan and there was a club there that put on a schutzhund demo I was hooked just didnt know where to start

I didnt stop training bird dogs just slowed way down

with a change of interest and our bird dog club folded a few years back so its hard to drive 2 or 3 hours to work dogs with other poeple

I have found a Schutzhund club close and I am going to start working with them

but in the mean time thought I would get some advice on here ( I found this to be a huge mistake)

thanks guys
Scott


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don't give up!!

Just because a dog doesn't go crazy over a ball or a tug doesn't mean it hasn't got drive - it might mean it has never been introduced to these.

I went to a seminar years ago where the ball was introduced!! About 90% of the dogs didn't know what to do with it.

My Briard had a lot of drive but when the "ball's the only way to success" modus came in, my dog looked at it in disgust.

I had to make it interesting for him - not just throwing it away and watching him chase it. 

I pretended it was the most important thing I had in my possession and would not let him have it until he really begged for it.

Afterwards this dog letched for everything I had in my hand and wanted to play with it.

One man's meat is another man's poison!!

Good Luck

Gill


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>I thought he was an amstaff...which is it? an amstaff or a pitbull, you called him both within one paragraph...or is it one of those amstaffs on paper that is part of a line that has been secretly bred as a pitbull for 75 years, when the split started occuring.
> 
> he is a registered am staff, i call him pit bull cuz some people dont know much what am staff is
> but a reg am staff can also be AKC reg APBT so does it matter really ?
> ...


tisk tisk Tammy how dare you mix and match LOL (im picking at ya) thank gawd this isnt a pit bull board you would be catching all kinda grief lol ..


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Scott LaRoe said:


> Its somthing I have always wanted to do
> 
> every since I was young
> 
> ...


Hell, Scott, get a few testicles. No one here got overly aggressive with you. As Joby said there has been some real screwballs here on occasion. You don't appear to be one of them. Animals tend to pounce on the weak or injured so maybe it would be a good idea to MOVE ON and have some fun on the forum!:smile:


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## Scott LaRoe (Jan 13, 2011)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hell, Scott, get a few testicles. No one here got overly aggressive with you. As Joby said there has been some real screwballs here on occasion. You don't appear to be one of them. Animals tend to pounce on the weak or injured so maybe it would be a good idea to MOVE ON and have some fun on the forum!:smile:



Yeah you are right 

lets start over let it be

I really am a true guy just wanting to get a good start in the sport

thanks every one


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Good going Scott. I am new here too. The first post I ever put up was about a retrieve issue and I got pounded..lol. I was confused about the whole thing to begin with. I learned there are genuine people on here and a lot of shit talkers. Just give it back to them...it's rather fun now...and that's all they are doing is having fun..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

scott...don't know the dog, don't know you...
some good advice here, from all sides.

I would add that I "might" try to tie the dog out and tease him with a little rag, or even a ball on a flirt pole...you can do it by yourself and if the dog is not a real crapper, he should not be scared of the flirt pole....

get him used to tie out, let him watch you work other dogs in the yard a few times.. until his frustration builds, and then see what you can get out of him....or leave him on tie out as you play fetch with a few other dogs, again building the frustration...hopefully...

and try the other things as well....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" I just picked up"


How long have you had the dog?
Is it possible that you haven't bonded yet and the dog sees no real reason to play games with you. 
Use a flirt pole and see if you can get anything out of him. 
I'm not a fan of using them because they can often show false drive but they can also kick in/stimulate some dogs that maybe just haven't really learned to play the game.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> " I just picked up"
> 
> 
> How long have you had the dog?
> ...


gotta get em started somehow...I am not a fan of HAVING to use them because we have to, either...but still do use them occasionally if neccessary...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby beat me to it with a better explanation. 
Still consider how long you've had the dog. Some dogs don't give a crap and will jump right in to drive work. Others may need a bit of bonding.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

jeremy anderson said:


> Maybe try to roll the ball or tug in liver or another food that will stick to it. Also try a flirt pole. If hes chasing it when you throw it but then stops & doesn't pick it up it might not be interesting enough to him. Tie it to a flirt pole or long line, let him chase it, right before he gets there yank it away & game on again. Good luck





Bob Scott said:


> " I just picked up"
> 
> 
> How long have you had the dog?
> ...


Omg,omg,omg the first time i actually gave decent advise? woo hoo I'm a dog trainer 
j/k


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jeremy anderson said:


> Omg,omg,omg the first time i actually gave decent advise? woo hoo I'm a dog trainer
> j/k


I can print you a certificate or make you a trophy, let me know


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I can print you a certificate or make you a trophy, let me know


I kinda want one of those butch titles if possible [-o<


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Butch as in cappel not flannel & timberland butch ](*,)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

jeremy anderson said:


> I kinda want one of those butch titles if possible [-o<


Jeremy,

They're not titles they're "validations". Fluffy is guaranteed to protect you if he's been "validated" by Butch and it's all tax
deductible (according to Butch, if not the IRS )


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jeremy anderson said:


> Omg,omg,omg the first time i actually gave decent advise? woo hoo I'm a dog trainer
> j/k



 #-oYour basing that on "MY" advice?:twisted: 

HEY FOLKS! WE GOT AN OTHER CRAZY ONE HERE!!! :lol::lol: :wink:


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> #-oYour basing that on "MY" advice?:twisted:
> 
> HEY FOLKS! WE GOT AN OTHER CRAZY ONE HERE!!! :lol::lol: :wink:


Bob, Your my new Chris. I will gladly follow your advice to the gates of hell buddy :twisted:


Too much? :???:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jeremy anderson said:


> Bob, Your my new Chris. I will gladly follow your advice to the gates of hell buddy :twisted:
> 
> 
> Too much? :???:


8-[ Downright efn spooky8-[.......but thanks.........I think.......maybe8-[ :-k 8-[ :lol: :wink: 8-[8-[


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jeremy anderson said:


> Butch as in cappel not flannel & timberland butch ](*,)


I was thinking wife beater and overalls, plump and short hair female butch...with timberland and optional flannel


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

!!Be nice kids!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

just a joke bob...


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## Lisa McKay (Nov 30, 2009)

Scott LaRoe said:


> Its somthing I have always wanted to do
> 
> every since I was young
> 
> ...


Hi Scott. Are you in Michigan still? If so where ? Brian Harvey is a master at building ball drive in a dog like yours. His methods are a little bit different than what you see in most training videos but they WORK. He is located in Hudson about 1/2 hr south of Jackson near the Ohio border. I travel from Canada to train with him. He is also an EXCELLENT training helper.

Good luck with the sport!


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