# Cropping effect on bonding



## Thomas Barriano

I mentioned on a Dobermann list that I thought you could get a better bond with your puppy if they weren't recuperating/ recovering from cosmetic cropping surgery. I've had both C&D and natural and will not crop or dock any of my Dobermanns in the future. Does anyone have any personal experience raising cropped and uncropped puppies? Am I on to something or is it all my imagination?


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## Peta Het

1 vote for imagination


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## Thomas Barriano

Peta Het said:


> 1 vote for imagination


Thanks for the vote but what do you base it on?


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## Joby Becker

I got a better bond I think, puppies were grateful I was there with them while they healed..


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

i think that's ridiculous... 

jaguar didn't even know he had his ears cropped- he slammed his conehead into everything and never whimpered or cried EVER. Not even when I took the stitches out a week later and scrubbed his scabs off (9 weeks old at the time). 

and if he did act like a pansy with his ears, I wouldn't have taken him home! haha.


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## Courtney Furgason

I have had both cropped and uncropped puppies/dogs(Amstaff/pit). I have to say I have the best bond with my current cropped dog. 

I've worked with many cropped pups in classes too. I have not seen a difference in the bond between handler/pup in cropped dogs.

Just my experience


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## Joby Becker

I cant remember anything different really, cant remember the puppies "recuperating" or "recovering" really either...but the pups I had cropped you could carry them around by their ear, and they didnt seem to mind...I think one fell asleep once even while I was holding him up by his ear....

probably a whole different thing with a doberman though, I have met some dobes with very low pain thresholds, and tolerance, so who knows...


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## jim stevens

I've had three dobes, one good one. His ears were cropped, and honestly, they don't even act like they are sore when they play.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

Joby Becker said:


> probably a whole different thing with a doberman though, I have met some dobes with very low pain thresholds, and tolerance, so who knows...



it's not different- those aren't real dobermans. lol.


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## Kevin Barrett

I have 3 rotts who has docked tails and a great bond with them all. Not sure bout cropping, that may look a little funny on them.


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## Courtney Furgason

Kevin Barrett said:


> I have 3 rotts who has docked tails and a great bond with them all. Not sure bout cropping, that may look a little funny on them.


LOL I would pay to see a cropped Rott.


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## Peter Cavallaro

The c&d crowd have developed a vast and sophisticated line of psuedo arguments justifying this stupid cosmetic practice, best one i heard is cos these breeds have not been selected for correct tails that if you leave the tail on a puppy it will be unbalanced gait and lead to spinal damage hence they c&d out of kindness to the dog.


Hahahahahaha

What a load of horse shit, tell me again how much you notice that yr pups drive increased and acts like its grateful you did this to it.

Could be a brilliant thread.


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## rick smith

don't know about the bonding issue, but to me it's about the most selfish thing an owner could do other than amputate cats toenails :evil:
... i'm not a fan of cosmetic surgery unless it's a life saver:evil:


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## Keith Jenkins

Thomas you ass...you just had to bring up something about docking and cropping! I hear so much of this through the my breed clubs and now you opened this can of worms here! ](*,)#-o

Dog either has drive or it doesn't and cropping/docking versus natural.... doesn't make a bit of difference either way.


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## Peta Het

Thomas Barriano said:


> Thanks for the vote but what do you base it on?


I base it on my experience with my Doberman of course. Cropped his ears and he never batted an eye. It had ZERO effect on bonding. If I ever got another Doberman pup I would crop again without hesitation. I don't like the drop ears on Dobies.


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## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> I mentioned on a Dobermann list that I thought you could get a better bond with your puppy if they weren't recuperating/ recovering from cosmetic cropping surgery. I've had both C&D and natural and will not crop or dock any of my Dobermanns in the future. Does anyone have any personal experience raising cropped and uncropped puppies? Am I on to something or is it all my imagination?


 
You are clueless


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## Peter Cavallaro

How do you know it had no effect on bonding? you did a controlled experiment with its twin/clone, as i said, pseudo arguments & horse shit.......keep em coming.


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## rick smith

is there anyone who crops and docks that does it OTHER than because they like the "look" ??
please step up and explain why ... i'm ALL ears


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## Peter Cavallaro

Increases bonding, drive, coordination, alertness, hearing, calm full grip and general health.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

rick smith said:


> don't know about the bonding issue, but to me it's about the most selfish thing an owner could do other than amputate cats toenails :evil:
> ... i'm not a fan of cosmetic surgery unless it's a life saver:evil:


mmmmmm, not really...... at all actually. 
and i take offense that I'm a "selfish" owner because of my decision. 

how many of you men are you circumcised? do you remember it? no. neither do these pups. it's done so young they don't even remember. They are 3 days old when they are docked, and about 7-9 weeks when cropped. they are properly put under anesthesia or heavy sedation. 

I saw my pup the day after his ears were cropped- running around like an idiot with his littermates- some of them were chewing on each others ears! bumping into things, etc. I saw one puppy when i was there that wimped once... she actually was the one that was placed in a pet home. lol. 

I don't make any excuses for it other than being cosmetic. 
I like natural dobermans as well- with a natural tail and ears. 
However, I just happen to prefer the look of a cropped/docked dog. 


and it's not at all like a de-clawing a cat by the way- that is an amputation of the last joint in their "toes"... much more painful and nothing like an ear crop. 



Honestly, if my dog can work, i don't care what it looks like... but don't make up BS.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Nice work Kara, you say all you care about is that yr dog works but you prefer amputated dogs and tell us not to BS...lol.

You even throw in male circumcision, why not female circumcision, happens in some cultures, bunch of men pin young girls down in the dirt, want the details, actually happens. Good enough for for a women to bring that up, doubt its the same for a man to tho?? reverse sexism.


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## Thomas Barriano

Keith Jenkins said:


> Thomas you ass...you just had to bring up something about docking and cropping! I hear so much of this through the my breed clubs and now you opened this can of worms here! ](*,)#-o
> 
> Dog either has drive or it doesn't and cropping/docking versus natural.... doesn't make a bit of difference either way.


Keith

I've had both C&D and natural Dobermanns. My first was a show line male the perfect looking male Dobermann. Had him cropped and he bumped into everything around and wimpered every time he did. Second dog was a show/working line red female who slammed into everything and didn't make a sound.
That's when I switched to floppy ears except a fawn rescue who was already cropped.
I'm trying to get feedback from people that have had both to see if they notice any difference. Maybe some European members who have raised both cropped and un cropped?
Instead we get the C&D zealots telling how tough their dog is and making it all about C&D. I don't care how you minimize the cropping procedure. It is still surgery (cosmetic) and there has to be an effect on the dog, even more so on a puppy.
Is there any other routine surgery that any puppy would have that you could make comparisons with?


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> You are clueless


Chris 

And you're a jack ass. What's you point? If you don't have anything of value to add then there is no need for you to reply


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Nice work Kara, you say all you care about is that yr dog works but you prefer amputated dogs and tell us not to BS...lol.
> 
> You even throw in male circumcision, why not female circumcision, happens in some cultures, bunch of men pin young girls down in the dirt, want the details, actually happens. Good enough for for a women to bring that up, doubt its the same for a man to tho?? reverse sexism.



LOL, a crop isn't an amputation. and a tail dock on a 3 day old pup wouldn't be considered that either.

if there was a crop/docked dobe that was a POS and a all natural dobe that was a bad ass- damn right I'd choose the natural dog. 

you're right, I like to torture my dogs!! I ADMIT IT!! 

keep talking out of your ass- it's so funny to read... good before bedtime.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> LOL, a crop isn't an amputation. and a tail dock on a 3 day old pup wouldn't be considered that either.
> 
> if there was a crop/docked dobe that was a POS and a all natural dobe that was a bad ass- damn right I'd choose the natural dog.
> 
> you're right, I like to torture my dogs!! I ADMIT IT!!
> 
> keep talking out of your ass- it's so funny to read... good before bedtime.


Im only regurtitating yr words, if thats talking out my ass so be it.

Cutting off part of the spine and ears, nothing at all close to amputation, more like sculpturing finger nails right???


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Im only regurtitating yr words, if thats talking out my ass so be it.
> 
> Cutting off part of the spine and ears, nothing at all close to amputation, more like sculpturing finger nails right???


I love sculpturing my finger nails, actually.


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## Julie Blanding

I've had two dogs with docked tails, one Dobe and one Giant Schnauzer, they were both adults when I got them so I have no idea how it affected either one of them. They both didn't seem to mind it. They both had natural ears too, but they were very nicely shaped. I don't know if I could deal with looking at ears that stuck out to the side... maybe I would make them wear a hat


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## Julie Blanding

You think taking foreskin off a penis on an infant and removing someone's clitoris around the age of 12 is the same thing? LOL


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## Geoff Empey

Everyone knows that a cropped and docked dobe is much much faster and has better agility.


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## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris
> 
> And you're a jack ass. What's you point? If you don't have anything of value to add then there is no need for you to reply


My point? That was my point. It is that you are clueless, that’s my point. Show me where you ever added value


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## Peter Cavallaro

Julie Blanding said:


> You think taking foreskin off a penis on an infant and removing someone's clitoris around the age of 12 is the same thing? LOL


No actually, if i could delete that i would, Kara's analogy was stupid and i added more stupid, sorry i did.


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## Lynn Anderson

Thomas Barriano said:


> I mentioned on a Dobermann list that I thought you could get a better bond with your puppy if they weren't recuperating/ recovering from cosmetic cropping surgery. I've had both C&D and natural and will not crop or dock any of my Dobermanns in the future. Does anyone have any personal experience raising cropped and uncropped puppies? Am I on to something or is it all my imagination?


I have raised 3, 2 C&D and one all natural, I found no difference in the bonding. Actually all the time spent taping ears up you probably end up bonding more with the C&D! However it was nice not having to tape ears for 5-6 months of their lives. I like my all natural puppy she is cute, but she would look A LOT better C&D. ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro

I apologise to the forum for a stupid analogy.


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## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I apologise to the forum for a stupid analogy.



Which one or does your apology cover all of them? ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano

Geoff Empey said:


> Everyone knows that a cropped and docked dobe is much much faster and has better agility.



Geoff

Come on, everyone knows that natural ears act like wings on a race car and help in the turns and that the tail acts like a rudder.
Why do you think some Canadian States outlawed cropping if it wasn't on account of wanting more agile Dobermanns?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> I mentioned on a Dobermann list that I thought you could get a better bond with your puppy if they weren't recuperating/ recovering from cosmetic cropping surgery. I've had both C&D and natural and will not crop or dock any of my Dobermanns in the future. Does anyone have any personal experience raising cropped and uncropped puppies? Am I on to something or is it all my imagination?


My vote--imagination. With two bouviers, no bonding or other issue from crop/dock.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro

Thomas Barriano said:


> Which one or does your apology cover all of them? ;-)


I cant keep track of every stupid thing i says???


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## Joby Becker

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I apologise to the forum for a stupid analogy.


What is analology?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Keith
> 
> I've had both C&D and natural Dobermanns. My first was a show line male the perfect looking male Dobermann. Had him cropped and he bumped into everything around and wimpered every time he did. Second dog was a show/working line red female who slammed into everything and didn't make a sound.
> That's when I switched to floppy ears except a fawn rescue who was already cropped.
> I'm trying to get feedback from people that have had both to see if they notice any difference. Maybe some European members who have raised both cropped and un cropped?
> Instead we get the C&D zealots telling how tough their dog is and making it all about C&D. I don't care how you minimize the cropping procedure. It is still surgery (cosmetic) and there has to be an effect on the dog, even more so on a puppy.
> Is there any other routine surgery that any puppy would have that you could make comparisons with?


 
Maybe its a dobe thing but bouvier puppies seem totally unaffected--at least my two were. While I agree that there can be an effect, I disagree that there HAS to be some sort of effect. From what you describe above have to wonder more about the procedure and effect of anesthesia or something.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro

deleted deleted


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## Joby Becker

Best I could get...looks close enough to a Rott.










I have seen a couple Rotts with cropped ears..low battle crops. looked pretty good to me...


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## Peter Cavallaro

If you require the look.....


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## Joby Becker

my dogs right ear fell...still trying to figure out how to make the other one fall


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## Jill Lyden

I raised a cropped Dobe and the only time he seemed to be affected was when I had to pull the tape off. And I will admit that I prefer the look of the cropped Dobe over the natural ears. But I'm into Malinois now anyway so not an issue anymore for me. Yay, no more Dobe zoomies


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## Joby Becker

Jill Lyden said:


> I raised a cropped Dobe and the only time he seemed to be affected was when I had to pull the tape off. And I will admit that I prefer the look of the cropped Dobe over the natural ears. But I'm into Malinois now anyway so not an issue anymore for me. Yay, no more Dobe zoomies


I get DS zoomies occasionally..


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## Natasha Keating

I had a Giant Schnauzer, a Rottweiller and now a Doberman. All tails were docked and the ears were cropped(Schnauzer and Dobe). None of the dogs had any issues and I can't complain about bonding.
My friends from Russia prefer a classic cropped/docked look and so am I. One friend from Czeck Republic prefers uncropped/ undocked look. 
I've never heard about that cropping/ docking could influence the bonding...


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## Robley Smith

The claim that tail docking and ear cropping are mutilation is pushed by the same crowd that doesn't think you should own a pet of any kind, let alone train the thing, and god forbid you even consider any sort of compulsion. That alone is enough to warrant resistance, it's pure pc bullshit.

In the UK, where C&D have been banned for a while, there is an exemption for both hunting and working dogs. Working dogs, hmm there is an interesting term, where have I heard it before?

A tail injury to an adult dog can be a big deal, yet a few day old pup may not even wake up from docking. Compare the recovery time of a docked pup with prophylactic stomach surgury to prevent torque. I haven't heard anyone crying and hand wringing about that elective surgury. And hey, by all means, cut thier balls off but don't you dare touch thier tails or earsies.


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## Joby Becker

Robley Smith said:


> The claim that tail docking and ear cropping are mutilation is pushed by the same crowd that doesn't think you should own a pet of any kind, let alone train the thing, and god forbid you even consider any sort of compulsion. That alone is enough to warrant resistance, it's pure pc bullshit.
> 
> In the UK, where C&D have been banned for a while, there is an exemption for both hunting and working dogs. Working dogs, hmm there is an interesting term, where have I heard it before?
> 
> A tail injury to an adult dog can be a big deal, yet a few day old pup may not even wake up from docking. Compare the recovery time of a docked pup with prophylactic stomach surgury to prevent torque. I haven't heard anyone crying and hand wringing about that elective surgury. And hey, by all means, cut thier balls off but don't you dare touch thier tails or earsies.


good post.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I had a number of cropped Dobe pups, and natural non-Dobe pups. Never saw any difference in the bonding between the cropped and non-cropped dogs. Actually one of my strongest bonds was probably with my very first Doberman who was cropped/docked. I've had both cropped and uncropped Dobes, could do either again, but couldn't do it without docking the tail. Seen to many injuries, and frankly just can't stand the look. Before people get up in arms about that statement, working people are every bit as looks oriented as anyone else, can't even say how many people I talk to who want the best working dog they can get, but it HAS to be dark, light, no white, white, ears must stand, mask needs to be the whole head, minimal, whatever.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Robley Smith said:


> The claim that tail docking and ear cropping are mutilation is pushed by the same crowd that doesn't think you should own a pet of any kind, let alone train the thing, and god forbid you even consider any sort of compulsion. That alone is enough to warrant resistance, it's pure pc bullshit.
> 
> In the UK, where C&D have been banned for a while, there is an exemption for both hunting and working dogs. Working dogs, hmm there is an interesting term, where have I heard it before?
> 
> A tail injury to an adult dog can be a big deal, yet a few day old pup may not even wake up from docking. Compare the recovery time of a docked pup with prophylactic stomach surgury to prevent torque. I haven't heard anyone crying and hand wringing about that elective surgury. And hey, by all means, cut thier balls off but don't you dare touch thier tails or earsies.


Excellent post, about wraps it up.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I had a number of cropped Dobe pups, and natural non-Dobe pups. Never saw any difference in the bonding between the cropped and non-cropped dogs. Actually one of my strongest bonds was probably with my very first Doberman who was cropped/docked. I've had both cropped and uncropped Dobes, could do either again, but couldn't do it without docking the tail. Seen to many injuries, and frankly just can't stand the look. Before people get up in arms about that statement, working people are every bit as looks oriented as anyone else, can't even say how many people I talk to who want the best working dog they can get, but it HAS to be dark, light, no white, white, ears must stand, mask needs to be the whole head, minimal, whatever.


and the rare special black mal.


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## Bob Scott

Most every terrier I've ever owned had a docked tail excepting the Borders. I have absolutely no problem or shame saying I like the look of both crop and dock. Done correctly by a vet it does absolutely nothing to a dogs mental well being. 
A good breeder can easily do tails. Ears are more of a surgery. there are good vets out there to do that. 
I really get a kick of all the anti dock/crop people that are ofter the same folks that say your wrong for not cutting off your dog's nads. For other then medical reasons this is a choice that no one person or organization should be dictating to you.


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## Jayna Champion

never noticed a lack of bonding.. I've bonded better with my cropped dog, than I ever did with my other 2. But that's just because she is the perfect dog for me...


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## Thomas Barriano

Robley Smith said:


> The claim that tail docking and ear cropping are mutilation is pushed by the same crowd that doesn't think you should own a pet of any kind, let alone train the thing, and god forbid you even consider any sort of compulsion.


Robley

Nobody here said anything about mutilation so please keep the hysterics out of the topic. Cropping is an unneeded cosmetic surgery by it's very definition. I have no problem with an owner
having their dog cropped and/or docked but call it what it is.


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## Jayna Champion

Bob Scott said:


> Most every terrier I've ever owned had a docked tail excepting the Borders. I have absolutely no problem or shame saying I like the look of both crop and dock. Done correctly by a vet it does absolutely nothing to a dogs mental well being.
> A good breeder can easily do tails. Ears are more of a surgery. there are good vets out there to do that.
> I really get a kick of all the anti dock/crop people that are ofter the same folks that say your wrong for not cutting off your dog's nads. For other then medical reasons this is a choice that no one person or organization should be dictating to you.


 
Agree completely w/ you on the spay/neuter nazis! UGH! hate them! Yes.. a lot of people can't handle an intact dog, but for those of us who can.. let us be!


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## Bob Scott

Jayna Champion said:


> Agree completely w/ you on the spay/neuter nazis! UGH! hate them! Yes.. a lot of people can't handle an intact dog, but for those of us who can.. let us be!



I will respect someone's choice to do it or not. Just don't cram it down my throat no matter how a person decides. It's a choice! :wink:


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Robley
> 
> Nobody here said anything about mutilation so please keep the hysterics out of the topic. Cropping is an unneeded cosmetic surgery by it's very definition. I have no problem with an owner
> having their dog cropped and/or docked but call it what it is.


I think people do call it what it is:

Cropping and Docking, no need to call it anything else in my mind..


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## Robley Smith

Thomas,

Look the subject up. You can hardly read a page about it before one of the anti C&D types call it mutilation.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

Bob Scott said:


> Most every terrier I've ever owned had a docked tail excepting the Borders. I have absolutely no problem or shame saying I like the look of both crop and dock. Done correctly by a vet it does absolutely nothing to a dogs mental well being.
> A good breeder can easily do tails. Ears are more of a surgery. there are good vets out there to do that.
> I really get a kick of all the anti dock/crop people that are ofter the same folks that say your wrong for not cutting off your dog's nads. For other then medical reasons this is a choice that no one person or organization should be dictating to you.


I was going to say that about the neutering!! haha 
great post. 

yeah it's funny a couple of vets I've worked with hate cropping, but will do a declaw??? wtf??? that's way more harsh!


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

Robley Smith said:


> The claim that tail docking and ear cropping are mutilation is pushed by the same crowd that doesn't think you should own a pet of any kind, let alone train the thing, and god forbid you even consider any sort of compulsion. That alone is enough to warrant resistance, it's pure pc bullshit.
> 
> In the UK, where C&D have been banned for a while, there is an exemption for both hunting and working dogs. Working dogs, hmm there is an interesting term, where have I heard it before?
> 
> A tail injury to an adult dog can be a big deal, yet a few day old pup may not even wake up from docking. Compare the recovery time of a docked pup with prophylactic stomach surgury to prevent torque. I haven't heard anyone crying and hand wringing about that elective surgury. And hey, by all means, cut thier balls off but don't you dare touch thier tails or earsies.



totally agree! nice post.


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## Joby Becker

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> I was going to say that about the neutering!! haha
> great post.
> 
> yeah it's funny a couple of vets I've worked with hate cropping, but will do a declaw??? wtf??? that's way more harsh!


wish my GF woulda done the declaw. 

my vet I think still does "de-barking". at least it was still on the rate sheet posted in the operating room.

I want to say it was listed at $130


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## Tamara McIntosh

Thomas Barriano said:


> I mentioned on a Dobermann list that I thought you could get a better bond with your puppy if they weren't recuperating/ recovering from cosmetic cropping surgery. I've had both C&D and natural and will not crop or dock any of my Dobermanns in the future. Does anyone have any personal experience raising cropped and uncropped puppies? Am I on to something or is it all my imagination?


In have had both c/d and natural in dobes and bouviers. I don't think it has any effect on bonding they seem to get over it quick. It hurts, it heals and they forget it. 

When i was very young i was electrocuted and it melted my mouth and cheek together and required quite a bit of plastic surgery thru my youth to fix. Yes i remember that it sucked and hurt but it didn't shape who i am now or how i interact with ppl. 

I prefer all natural dobes. I like the look better. But to each their own.


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## Thomas Barriano

Robley Smith said:


> Thomas,
> 
> Look the subject up. You can hardly read a page about it before one of the anti C&D types call it mutilation.


That's there, not here. I'd prefer less hysterics from either side here


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## rick smith

yeah, like Thomas wrote; keep the hysterics and thin skin to yourself.

all i said was it was SELFISH, which it clearly is; that's an essential element of any dog or pet ownership ... if happen to feel if you want the prick ear bobtail "cool" look, you should just buy one that came form it's momma that way rather than customize it yourself. i realize they are property possessions, but not exactly on the same level as a car or a bike ... funny part is, these are often the same people think it is so stupid to dress up dogs or give em lion cuts to make em look "cool" :-(
.... comparing it to s/n is interesting...my wag is the majority of owners do that because either their vet recommended it or they want to stop marking or behavior problems....and maybe too lazy to responsibly control who it gets it on with, or too lazy to "deal" with heat cycles with a bitch in heat
.... cat declawing...the ultimate in laziness and selfishness by not giving em "approved" areas to shed claws or training them to not do it on people; both of which are EASY to do. if furniture means more than a cat, simple solution is don't get one

the only time it really bothers me about cropping and docking is when people deny they do it for selfish reasons or get arrogant about the reasons why they CAN

since the OP was about bonding....
re; behavioral issues : dogs are just too plastic to think this type of sculpting at an early age would affect bonding. if it was done to a mature dog it might have different effects, especially if the dog had already had bad vet experiences ... but its never been tested so we will never have a definitive answer, so why not move on ?

but before that happens i DO have an issue that might be relevant to the bonding Q...
it is my firm belief, even tho it can't be proven that a dog feels and remembers NOTHING when it is being sliced and diced in a vet clinic
it is the BEFORE and AFTER care that may have a LOT more effect on bonding and other behavior.
...i am very demanding about taking dogs to visit vets and condition them when they are perfectly healthy, and most vets don't want to take time to allow me to do this. i can see their point. but when they want to "get right to it" when i take a dog in for a treatment, rather than allow the dog to "settle" to MY satisfaction i am much less obliging, and VERY selfish !!!

declawing is another issue and another species entirely. cats aren't domestic like dogs ... when we had a base Army vet that did declawing i saw a lot and many of them were NOT social at all after it was done. i know for a fact a few that reverted to biting were later returned and killed by the same vet :-(

fwiw...don't know about other countries, but almost impossible to find a Ja vet who will declaw


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## Kadi Thingvall

rick smith said:


> since the OP was about bonding....
> re; behavioral issues : dogs are just too plastic to think this type of sculpting at an early age would affect bonding. if it was done to a mature dog it might have different effects, especially if the dog had already had bad vet experiences ... but its never been tested so we will never have a definitive answer, so why not move on ?


Actually I had an adult dog who had the equivalent of a crop, and I know multiple adult dogs who have had their tails docked. In my dogs case part of her ear was torn off while playing with the other dogs (someone grabbed an ear instead of a toy at top speed). We couldn't get the bleeding to stop, so off to the vet. He "shaped" her ear instead of just sewing up the edges, and took a fair amount more off to make everything look good (I think it looks goofy). It didn't phase her any more than any other surgery my dogs have gone through. The dogs that had their tails docked had either a history of injuries that wouldn't heal, or one traumatic injury, once again it didn't seem to be much of an issue. There was some re-learning of balance, they weren't quite as "smooth" for awhile as they were pre-dock with jumping and stuff, but they adjusted and you'd never know they weren't that way from birth. Once again no bond issues that I could see.

I haven't been involved in Dobes for a few year, but when I was being docked/cropped GREATLY improved a dogs chances of adoption if it needed to be rehomed or wound up in rescue or pound. In some cases making the difference between life and death for the dog. Anyone actively involved in Dobes know if this is still true?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Kadi,

I think there is still a preference for C&D but it's rapidly changing. Too few Vets cropping anymore and fewer and fewer
(not sure there are any left) Vet schools even teaching it. A decent show crop can cost $750/puppy so more and more pet Dobermanns are natural. Anyone that wants to compete in IPO in Europe is likely to consider NOT C&D because of various countries having C&D bans.


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kadi,
> 
> I think there is still a preference for C&D but it's rapidly changing. Too few Vets cropping anymore and fewer and fewer
> (not sure there are any left) Vet schools even teaching it. A decent show crop can cost $750/puppy so more and more pet Dobermanns are natural. Anyone that wants to compete in IPO in Europe is likely to consider NOT C&D because of various countries having C&D bans.


Yes vets Can charge that, I used to get ears done for $60.00. My guy is a sculptor with ears, dying breed for sure...He goes by weight now, I think the lower weight pup is around 150, heavier pups about 200 I think.

Still does tails for 7-8 bucks I think...

Do the European bans, effect visiting dogs from other countries?

Rick. People do it because they want to, and they can. I have never heard anyone deny it was for selfish reasons, most everyone I have ever talked to about it, admits it is not neccessary to do it, it is for cosmetic reasons. The issue of selfishness doesn't really come up.

To expect someone to admit that it is selfish is kinda wacky, people do not have to answer to others about choices they make, if it does not have anything to do with others.

I did it because it was the norm for my breeds at the time, and it looked way better to me, was that selfish, I dont think so, personally. To admit selfishness as a reason, is kind of like admitting that it is somehow wrong. It is not wrong, it is a choice, with no wrong answer.

That is like saying people that say a dog corrects itself in some cases, is only wording it that way because they are trying to assuage their own guilt. :???:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kadi,
> 
> I think there is still a preference for C&D but it's rapidly changing. Too few Vets cropping anymore and fewer and fewer
> (not sure there are any left) Vet schools even teaching it. A decent show crop can cost $750/puppy so more and more pet Dobermanns are natural. Anyone that wants to compete in IPO in Europe is likely to consider NOT C&D because of various countries having C&D bans.


No vet schools teach it. The vet I was going to work for was very very well known for doing them. When I spent a little over a week at his practice, there was pups coming in every day for bandage changes and such. People would pay to have him and a tech fly out to do them. I don't remember what he charged, but some vets charge a package price for both the surgery and all the after care, so that may be why it's so high. But others just don't like doing the surgery much even if they are good at it, so they charge more. I saw a couple pups come in infected and painful over that time and have seen another pup come in with a necrotic ear tip at another practice because of a bad wrap, so that was enough for me not to be a fan for a strictly cosmetic procedure. I watched him do a few and he offered to let me try one, but I declined. Same with declaws. Not a fan. Cat nails take like a grand total of 30 seconds to trim. Way faster than the dogs. I don't get it...

I think it will be phased out over the next decade or two. 20 years ago, many boxers were cropped. Now almost all boxers except show dogs are natural, at least around here. It's all a matter of what you are used to seeing.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> Do the European bans, effect visiting dogs from other countries?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I guess it depends on the individual country. Butch Henderson qualified for the World Championship (FCI?) with his C&D
> Dobermann Agir but couldn't compete since they were held in
> Holland that year.


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

There are some dobe breeders (ones that have been in the breed for decades) that do their ears themselves with meds they get from their vet. Actually, some of the best croppings I've seen were done by breeders, not veterinarians.


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby Becker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the European bans, effect visiting dogs from other countries?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I guess it depends on the individual country. Butch Henderson qualified for the World Championship (FCI?) with his C&D
> Dobermann Agir but couldn't compete since they were held in
> Holland that year.
> 
> 
> 
> hmm. learn something new every single day on here..thanks
Click to expand...


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No vet schools teach it. The vet I was going to work for was very very well known for doing them. When I spent a little over a week at his practice, there was pups coming in every day for bandage changes and such. People would pay to have him and a tech fly out to do them. I don't remember what he charged, but some vets charge a package price for both the surgery and all the after care, so that may be why it's so high. But others just don't like doing the surgery much even if they are good at it, so they charge more. I saw a couple pups come in infected and painful over that time and have seen another pup come in with a necrotic ear tip at another practice because of a bad wrap, so that was enough for me not to be a fan for a strictly cosmetic procedure. I watched him do a few and he offered to let me try one, but I declined. Same with declaws. Not a fan. Cat nails take like a grand total of 30 seconds to trim. Way faster than the dogs. I don't get it...
> 
> I think it will be phased out over the next decade or two. 20 years ago, many boxers were cropped. Now almost all boxers except show dogs are natural, at least around here. It's all a matter of what you are used to seeing.


my vet charges the package. surgery, anesthesia, and aftercare.

When the hemotoma happened, it was $168.00 including 6 weeks of bandage changing 1 time per week, and stitch removal.

how much would that cost at a "normal" vet I am wondering.


----------



## Joby Becker

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> There are some dobe breeders (ones that have been in the breed for decades) that do their ears themselves with meds they get from their vet. Actually, some of the best croppings I've seen were done by breeders, not veterinarians.


It was not a dobie, but one time I was going to pick up a pup, and one of its littermates ripped off its ear bandage and tore the ear open, some of the stitches came loose. We restitched it on the kitchen counter at her house.


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

I believe it. There is only a handful of good cropping veterinarians in the US.


----------



## Tim Connell

Cropping and docking: I don't know if it affects bonding in any way, but Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann wanted them that way 

Whether for function (claims of less ear/tail for an offender to grab on to, or better sound localization with a cropped, erect ear) or purely for aesthetics, I suppose this is why there are numerous flavors of ice cream, people are free to make choices of what they like and do not like.

Dobermann, von Stephanitz, and I'm sure many others would roll over in their graves if they saw what some people have done to some members of their breeds...then there are the purists- trying to do the right thing, and breed dogs that work...just like they were designed to do...in my opinion, that includes maintaining the breed standard as envisioned by the founder of the breed. Don't like cropped ears and a docked tail? Maybe a regularly C+ D breed isn't for you 

I personally like a cropped and docked Dobermann. I also like Dobermanns that are true in temperament and working ability as they should be, but that's a whole other can of worms


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> There are some dobe breeders (ones that have been in the breed for decades) that do their ears themselves with meds they get from their vet. Actually, some of the best croppings I've seen were done by breeders, not veterinarians.


Kara,

The official stand of the DPCA and UDC is that cropping is a DVM procedure NOT something to be done by the lay person on the kitchen table. This may have happened in the past but when you're fighting C&D bans (like in California a couple of years ago) the last thing you want is JQP thinking unqualified people (non Vets) are cropping dogs and administrating controlled substances. Any vet who gives anesthetic to a lay person to crop their dogs ears could lose their license.
They're called "controlled substances" for a reason


----------



## Joby Becker

Tim Connell said:


> Cropping and docking: I don't know if it affects bonding in any way, but Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann wanted them that way
> 
> Whether for function (claims of less ear/tail for an offender to grab on to, or better sound localization with a cropped, erect ear) or purely for aesthetics, I suppose this is why there are numerous flavors of ice cream, people are free to make choices of what they like and do not like.
> 
> Dobermann, von Stephanitz, and I'm sure many others would roll over in their graves if they saw what some people have done to some members of their breeds...then there are the purists- trying to do the right thing, and breed dogs that work...just like they were designed to do...in my opinion, that includes maintaining the breed standard as envisioned by the founder of the breed. Don't like cropped ears and a docked tail? Maybe a regularly C+ D breed isn't for you
> 
> I personally like a cropped and docked Dobermann. I also like Dobermanns that are true in temperament and working ability as they should be, but that's a whole other can of worms


who cares if the sucker can work????as long as the selfish owner leaves its ears and tail alone...what the hell is wrong with you ??? get with the program


----------



## Tim Connell

Joby Becker said:


> who cares if the sucker can work????as long as the selfish owner leaves its ears and tail alone...what the hell is wrong with you ??? get with the program



Haha! Exactly. I guess I should just go get some wonderful showline *insert ruined breed here* and show everyone how "pretty" it is by trotting it around a show ring.

Probably not gonna happen.


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

Lol well obviously they won't support it publicly Thomas. Even though some of those members crop ears themselves! 

They heavily sedate the pups, which are not controlled drugs actually.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Tim Connell said:


> Cropping and docking: I don't know if it affects bonding in any way, but Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann wanted them that way
> 
> Whether for function (claims of less ear/tail for an offender to grab on to, or better sound localization with a cropped, erect ear) or purely for aesthetics, I suppose this is why there are numerous flavors of ice cream, people are free to make choices of what they like and do not like.
> 
> Dobermann, von Stephanitz, and I'm sure many others would roll over in their graves if they saw what some people have done to some members of their breeds...then there are the purists- trying to do the right thing, and breed dogs that work...just like they were designed to do...in my opinion, that includes maintaining the breed standard as envisioned by the founder of the breed. Don't like cropped ears and a docked tail? Maybe a regularly C+ D breed isn't for you
> 
> I personally like a cropped and docked Dobermann. I also like Dobermanns that are true in temperament and working ability as they should be, but that's a whole other can of worms


Tim

Louis D was dead before the 1st standard was written. He wanted a dog that would protect and was less concerned about appearances. The cropped so the bad guy can't grab them made a little sense 100 years ago when the ears were cropped close to the head . Now with a ten inch long show crop that you have to post for 6 months to get to stand. That argument just doesn't hold water. You want to try to grab my working Dobermanns floppy ears, that are close to their mouth? OR the donkey ears sitting on top of a show dobes head???? They'd all roll over in their graves is they saw what's in the 
breed ring today. The early Dobermanns were fierce protectors
now they can't pass a basic TT and drop dead before they're 8 :-(


----------



## Tim Connell

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tim
> 
> Louis D was dead before the 1st standard was written. He wanted a dog that would protect and was less concerned about appearances. The cropped so the bad guy can't grab them made a little sense 100 years ago when the ears were cropped close to the head . Now with a ten inch long show crop that you have to post for 6 months to get to stand. That argument just doesn't hold water. You want to try to grab my working Dobermanns floppy ears, that are close to their mouth? OR the donkey ears sitting on top of a show dobes head???? They'd all roll over in their graves is they saw what's in the
> breed ring today. The early Dobermanns were fierce protectors
> now they can't pass a basic TT and drop dead before they're 8 :-(


No one likes seeing a strong Dobe more than I do...I like the breed...but yes, they are plagued with a lot of issues- there are definitely some good working ones around, and people trying to preserve that. Sadly, the ones that can work are many times short lived, and the ones that have longevity are often not strong workers. 

I was born way too late. I would have loved to have been around during those primitive days to see the old dogs...


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> Lol well obviously they won't support it publicly Thomas. Even though some of those members crop ears themselves!
> 
> They heavily sedate the pups, which are not controlled drugs actually.


Kara

Look up Pam deHetre and kitchen table croppers.
Here is a start
http://dogshownewsnetwork.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-817.html
Cropping ears is a veterinary procedure requiring a license.
Non Vets who crop ears face felony charges. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

Thomas Barriano said:


> Kara
> 
> Look up Pam deHetre and kitchen table croppers.
> Here is a start
> http://dogshownewsnetwork.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-817.html
> Cropping ears is a veterinary procedure requiring a license.
> Non Vets who crop ears face felony charges. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.


I understand clearly what you are saying. 

just because cocaine is illegal doesn't mean people don't do it.

I'm just saying the truth of what happens behind the scenes.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> my vet charges the package. surgery, anesthesia, and aftercare.
> 
> When the hemotoma happened, it was $168.00 including 6 weeks of bandage changing 1 time per week, and stitch removal.
> 
> how much would that cost at a "normal" vet I am wondering.


What kind of cropping are you guys doing. With the two bouvs we've had, there's no bandages, wrapping, etc. Nor have we had vet "aftercare." My bouv is 8. I guess things change. Thor's ears were done by a non-vet--Eric Houttin who is now deceased. He was urologist and surgeon but still non-vet. I actually watched him do the litter. My friend just got a bouv puppy. I think she took her in to have the stiches removed. No trauma, cones, etc. We band corgi tails usually around day 3. Personally, with some breeds Iprefer the c/d "look" but its not a gotta have. The whole c/d thing is an "art." Nothing worse than a jacked up ear job.


T


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tim
> 
> Louis D was dead before the 1st standard was written. He wanted a dog that would protect and was less concerned about appearances. The cropped so the bad guy can't grab them made a little sense 100 years ago when the ears were cropped close to the head . Now with a ten inch long show crop that you have to post for 6 months to get to stand. That argument just doesn't hold water. You want to try to grab my working Dobermanns floppy ears, that are close to their mouth? OR the donkey ears sitting on top of a show dobes head???? They'd all roll over in their graves is they saw what's in the
> breed ring today. The early Dobermanns were fierce protectors
> now they can't pass a basic TT and drop dead before they're 8 :-(


If I had a dobie I would get a short battle crop.. 

I had a dobie X APBT that was colored just like a dobie, but looked like a dobie on steroids...that and a nice big muscled head, looked great with the short battle crop...I wouldnt try to grab his ears either...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> If I had a dobie I would get a short battle crop..
> 
> I had a dobie X APBT that was colored just like a dobie, but looked like a dobie on steroids...that and a nice big muscled head, looked great with the short battle crop...I wouldnt try to grab his ears either...


The doberman I had as a kid had short cropped ears--huge head and lots of bone, muscle, substance. They've really changed.

T


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What kind of cropping are you guys doing. With the two bouvs we've had, there's no bandages, wrapping, etc. Nor have we had vet "aftercare." My bouv is 8. I guess things change. Thor's ears were done by a non-vet--Eric Houttin who is now deceased. He was urologist and surgeon but still non-vet. I actually watched him do the litter. My friend just got a bouv puppy. I think she took her in to have the stiches removed. No trauma, cones, etc. We band corgi tails usually around day 3. Personally, with some breeds Iprefer the c/d "look" but its not a gotta have. The whole c/d thing is an "art." Nothing worse than a jacked up ear job.
> 
> T


nah this was surgery on the DS for a large hematoma/dropped ear. had to drain and such...big drain hole was cut into inner layer of ear..

We are talking dobes here, very tall crop, which I am sure needs a lot more maintenance than others.. when I had a breed that was cropped, they were short crops, sometimes needed a little help standing, correctly, I used to make my own forms out of stiff wire, or coathanger, taped to a piece of cut to shape molefoam, from the top tip to down in the bell, and then glue it into firmly into the entire ear with skin bond..no bandages, no outside tape, no sticks, no bars...fully adjustable to bend however I needed to, always worked way better than what the vet would send me home with.. the vet was impressed as hell when he saw them...

I have taken some pups in to get tricky stitches out..but usually did it myself.


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

a lot of working line dobermans actually aren't very large or big-boned (of course every line and dog is different). 

Most of the big-headed, large dobermans you see now are from showlines. 

the old school dobermans, if you look in pictures, is surprisingly petite looking, and light boned.


----------



## Joby Becker

like that earcrop


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

yeah I hate the long show crops- so ugly I think! my girl's is WAY too long. I really like my male's crop though, it's perfect.


----------



## Joby Becker




----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

lol, Yoda!


----------



## Joby Becker

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> lol, Yoda!


nah this IS Yoda..


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

lol, awwwww


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> If I had a dobie I would get a short battle crop..
> 
> I had a dobie X APBT that was colored just like a dobie, but looked like a dobie on steroids...that and a nice big muscled head, looked great with the short battle crop...I wouldnt try to grab his ears either...


Sounds like one of them Canis Panthers?


----------



## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Sounds like one of them Canis Panthers?


nah those are much more complicated

my handicapped buddy has been doing that cross for a looong time. he goes back to apbt after the f1 then back to cross usually.
In my opinion the dog I had "Buddy" was the best looking one he ever bred. most all of them come out tan colored or saddlebacked, this was the only one that came out black and rust..awesome looking dog. had leg, was sleek but muscular 85 lbs..


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


>


Who decided this was attractive. I mean really???? Same thing with the danes.

T


----------



## rick smith

Dang it Joby, didn't i ever explain the genetic evolution of the doberman to you ?
the longer people cut off their ears and made em look like little pixies, the more timid they got. but everybody wanted that look. the little twitchy tail nub just added to the daintiness effect. it's only been in recent years that the floppy look has come back, cause everyone likes "retro" stuff, so it'll probably go full circle and then their previous behavior will slowly creep back in, the dogs will get stronger and they will bond better with their owners as a benny. heck, it's a known fact pixies are very shy and self conscious, and that made the dogs more embarrassed and more likely to be run off easily...the movie just confused the image a bit while someone was trying to make a buck

...totally different with the bull breeds... apples and bananas ....we all know a real bull type gets their ears chewed off in training...it's a right of passage; happens naturally but never admitted openly cause when you breed dogs to fight other dogs you GOTTA do it secretly...no brainer

... it's just like the size thing ... bigger is better... modern bigger working dogs are more powerful so they breed em to be bigger ... but the retro phase will come around here too, and they'll be bred smaller again ... guaranteed...probably be called gsd "classics" by many of these retro breeders and they will be EXPENSIVE

so Joby, are you finally squared away on this ? don't let your limited experience cloud the "true facts" again ... dogs are part of the fashion scene by most owners and follow the same basic trends :lol:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Who decided this was attractive. I mean really???? Same thing with the danes.
> 
> T


I love it when a conformation person tells me my natural Dobermanns aren't what Herr Dobermann wanted and then show up with a donkey eared bagged of nerves.
Yeah that's just what old Louis had in mind :-(


----------



## Lynn Anderson

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Who decided this was attractive. I mean really???? Same thing with the danes.
> 
> T


I'm not defending the way this puppy looks but they do grow into their ears. They always look crazy long when they are puppies.


----------



## Natasha Keating

http://www.filminnederland.nl/film/hondententoonstelling
Breeds of dogs, 1922. Doberman is from 6:51..


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

thanks Natasha! that was really cool to see in a video- you usually only see pictures. 

lol, my female could pass as an old school dobe. we call her Needle Nose...... 
I went to the DCPA Nationals with her... it was 10 minutes from my house and I thought that I would go check it out. 
People looked at her and rolled their eyes, LOL. I'm not kidding. they were like, disgusted. it was hilarious.


----------



## Bob Scott

If I ever got a Dobe, Dane, Boxer, etc with a show crop:-o I thing I'd have to get out the hedge clippers.
If your gonna cut em, cut em!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> thanks Natasha! that was really cool to see in a video- you usually only see pictures.
> 
> lol, my female could pass as an old school dobe. we call her Needle Nose......
> I went to the DCPA Nationals with her... it was 10 minutes from my house and I thought that I would go check it out.
> People looked at her and rolled their eyes, LOL. I'm not kidding. they were like, disgusted. it was hilarious.


Try showing up to one with two Dobermanns with floppy ears and one with a tail 
Of course I only did the WDS/IPO trial


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

yeah, they don't like the euro looking ones, lol.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton

not really about bonding...but I have noticed that my Beauceron with cropped ears has a bigger fly problem than my dogs with natural prick ears. The flies really go after the tips of her ears. I have to keep her ears fly sprayed. The flies don't bother the other dogs' ears at all.


----------



## Joby Becker

wow Rick, I did NOT know that. Learn somethin new everyday. Very scientific.

so what is the explanation of how it goes with apples crossbred to bananas, just curious...

I hope you are right though, will save people lots of money on earcrops.
I wish I had all that money back that I spent on the 50 or so I paid for.


----------



## Joby Becker

Dobie X Pit


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Flies OT*



Kellie Wolverton said:


> not really about bonding...but I have noticed that my Beauceron with cropped ears has a bigger fly problem than my dogs with natural prick ears. The flies really go after the tips of her ears. I have to keep her ears fly sprayed. The flies don't bother the other dogs' ears at all.


Kellie,

I started to use fly predators for the fly problem and they seem to work pretty good. You can even get a free sample from these guys
http://www.arbico-organics.com/category/fly-control-program.
I ordered some from somebody else on Ebay and the instructions SUCKED so they all died. Got the free sample from 
Arbico with detailed instructions and they worked fine. I'll reorder every month from them


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> Dobie X Pit


Still looks like a Canis Panther but probably doesn't cost as much?


----------



## Melissa Blazak

I am just very glad you are not going to crop and dock anymore. 

Although I like the look of a dobie with cropped ears I couldn't in all good conscience want to do that to my dog just for aesthetic purposes. Coming from a breed where everything is about aesthetics, I went totally opposite and bought a 3/4 German line undocked and with dew claws dog. He still looks like his breed and he has all the drive and heart I could have wanted........so why would I want to change his physical appearance just for the sake of a few lines in a breed standard?


----------



## Joby Becker

Melissa Blazak said:


> .....so why would I want to change his physical appearance just for the sake of a few lines in a breed standard?


you wouldn't


----------



## Melissa Blazak

Even the best dogs can't compete on a world agility team if it's held in a country that bans docking and cropping. 

With all that said though I still believe in free choice. While I would fully support a ban on docking and cropping if it came in my country, for now it is still optional and you should be able to choose to do what you want.


----------



## Joby Becker

Melissa Blazak said:


> Even the best dogs can't compete on a world agility team if it's held in a country that bans docking and cropping.
> 
> With all that said though I still believe in free choice. While I would fully support a ban on docking and cropping if it came in my country, for now it is still optional and you should be able to choose to do what you want.


have no quarrel with you, but how can you say in one sentence that you support free choice, and in the very next sentence, say you would support a ban, taking the choice away from people?

that does not compute in my pea brain...


----------



## Kellie Wolverton

*Re: Flies OT*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Kellie,
> 
> I started to use fly predators for the fly problem and they seem to work pretty good. You can even get a free sample from these guys
> http://www.arbico-organics.com/category/fly-control-program.


Thanks. I will check them out.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Bouviers never said anything about a tail loss, the Giant Schnauzer didn't mention the ear loss...
The trend is to the natural look for the breed. Takes some getting use to.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Melissa Blazak said:


> Even the best dogs can't compete on a world agility team if it's held in a country that bans docking and cropping.
> 
> With all that said though I still believe in free choice. While I would fully support a ban on docking and cropping if it came in my country, for now it is still optional and you should be able to choose to do what you want.


Hi Melissa

I understood that C&D was already banned in some parts of
Canada just not the whole country?


----------



## Marta Wajngarten

Joby Becker said:


> Dobie X Pit


Really... looks exactly like a German Pincher I used to take care of. Maybe a tad bigger.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

If anyone besides a vet does cropping, that is illegal, especially if you do it for someone else for money as it'd be practicing veterinary medicine without a license. Especially without adequate anesthesia as this is absolutely cruel. If anyone disagrees, I will be glad to clamp anybody's ears (or their kids' ears) and straight razor the ends off so they look like elves if anybody would like to test this. Could be very fashionable, yes? And using prescription or controlled drugs to sedate or anesthetize the pups if you are not a vet is also illegal. The DEA would be interested in this, no doubt.

I don't do cropping, I don't recommend cropping to clients if they don't "need" to (i.e.- if they don't show), I don't even like the look on most breeds (especially molossers...big head and pointy ears looks rather odd to me), *but I don't berate people who do if they get it done correctly with a vet and proper pain management.* But people having anybody but a vet doing it or defending it is a great for it to get banned outright and rightly so.


----------



## Lynn Anderson

Melissa Blazak said:


> I am just very glad you are not going to crop and dock anymore.
> 
> Although I like the look of a dobie with cropped ears I couldn't in all good conscience want to do that to my dog just for aesthetic purposes. Coming from a breed where everything is about aesthetics, I went totally opposite and bought a 3/4 German line undocked and with dew claws dog. He still looks like his breed and he has all the drive and heart I could have wanted........so why would I want to change his physical appearance just for the sake of a few lines in a breed standard?


Good post.


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## Lynn Anderson

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> thanks Natasha! that was really cool to see in a video- you usually only see pictures.
> 
> lol, my female could pass as an old school dobe. we call her Needle Nose......
> I went to the DCPA Nationals with her... it was 10 minutes from my house and I thought that I would go check it out.
> People looked at her and rolled their eyes, LOL. I'm not kidding. they were like, disgusted. it was hilarious.


Hey I was not disgusted! She was pretty, and had a wonderful temperament. Besides that Cash really, really, loved her..lol!=P~


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## jamie lind

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If anyone besides a vet does cropping, that is illegal, especially if you do it for someone else for money as it'd be practicing veterinary medicine without a license.


http://www.avma.org/advocacy/state/issues/sr_elective_procedures.asp

is there newer info somewhere? this says only 1 state has any regulation of dog tail docking. and only 8 states have any regulation of cropping.


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## Ben Thompson

I'm a live and let live kind of guy so I don't care if people choose to do natural or cropped.

I personally like the way the doberman's or is that dobermann's look when cropped. Some breeds don't look as well cropped. Thankfully with the shepherd dogs I don't have to deal with this stuff. I like a cropped tail on rottweilers as well. But again its your dog, your decesion. I would never support a ban on this sort of thing no way.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jamie, it'd probably depend on how specifically it is written, but most practice acts talk about non-vets not being allowed to do medicine or surgery, especially on other people's pets for money. Ear cropping would certainly be surgery. 

Either way, I don't think popular opinion would go well with cutting the ears off awake (or sedated/anesthetized, using diverted drugs illegally) pups. I don't feel like it matters if it some well known breeder or gang bangers cutting their dog's ears off with kitchen scissors. It's that kind of practice that will end up making it illegal for everybody.


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## Bob Scott

Dogs actually have been bred to create a prick ear. The White Bull Terrier is the best example I know of. It was originally cropped but the standards changed to take it out of the "fighting dog" mindset by show people. They started selecting for a prick ear. 
There ya go! Breed for a look and the breed goes down the crapper. DAMN those pricks! 8-[ :wink:


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## jamie lind

maren- do you also feel that cutting the balls off livestock should be performed by a vet under sedation?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Interesting you mention that. I did a castration on a 6 month old goat on 3 days ago with sedation, a caudal epidural, and intratesticular injection of lidocaine, plus generic Banamine injection afterwards for pain management. Xylazine and lidocaine are both inexpensive too. I don't think that just because they are sheep, goats, or cattle that they feel no pain while a dog or horse would. I also want them feeling good so they get back to their normal behavior quickly too because as we know now, the pain that causes stress also inhibits the immune system. I don't do much food animal work, just mostly sheep and goats for small scale production, 4H animals, hobby farm animals, and my herding instructor's sheep and the like, so that is my preference, yes.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-related-chat/62080-cant-true.html

about breeders cropping at home. interesting read.


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## jamie lind

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Interesting you mention that. I did a castration on a 6 month old goat on 3 days ago with sedation, a caudal epidural, and intratesticular injection of lidocaine, plus generic Banamine injection afterwards for pain management. Xylazine and lidocaine are both inexpensive too. I don't think that just because they are sheep, goats, or cattle that they feel no pain while a dog or horse would. I also want them feeling good so they get back to their normal behavior quickly too because as we know now, the pain that causes stress also inhibits the immune system. I don't do much food animal work, just mostly sheep and goats for small scale production, 4H animals, hobby farm animals, and my herding instructor's sheep and the like, so that is my preference, yes.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I have done the other method where a hundred plus calves are run through a chute and they are vaccinated, wormed, tattooed, hormone implanted, castrated, and sometimes even dehorned all at once all without anesthesia. Again, not my preference to work in this fashion. I prefer helping out the smaller scale folks.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

jamie lind said:


> maren- do you also feel that cutting the balls off livestock should be performed by a vet under sedation?


Many years ago I attended a seminar by a local university extension person demonstrating banding testicles for the local farmers. Its the same way we band testicles in corgis at three days. Smaller scale hobbyists are the least likely to know any of the techniques and the most likely to pay. You have over 70 male lambs--what costs for sedated castration? 


T


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## Howard Gaines III

So I'm guessing all the guys whose wangs have been worked on will be happy...:razz:
Med management I think is the better answer. Their are no vets in Delaware that I know of who will do ears, one vet tech down state. Not trusting my dog's ears to a VT!!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

8 years ago Khira's ear crop by a Nebraska vet was $125 was a bit on the expensive side for a vet ear crop but you paid the big bucks to make sure you got the guru. My friends just bought a pup and it was $350 extra for the ear crop. Someone just told me that a vet charged $120 for a progesterone. I recently heard of a $1200 C-section locally. I think more and more hobby breeding is getting cost prohibitive. I'm not married to c/d but I think its part of a trend that we don't want to see happen. What vets really don't want to do, you'll see jacked up prices for. Then there are the vets who consider themselves the breeder police. 

T


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## Melissa Thom

The vet I used to work for was a very skilled cropper. Considered one of the greats for danes and we did dozens a month flown in from all over the flippin place. I got to assist and learned what I needed to about cropping - it's not for me. Worse yet were breeders who couldn't take advice - like the leather the dog had not supporting the length of cut they wanted/needed for the ring and insisted we go long anyways. Inevitably the posting would fail and a perfectly fine - now completely stupid looking dog would need to be cropped again or they'd just place him out in a pet home because he wouldn't finish his title... because that's all that's important after all . 

As far as bonding. I never met a dog/pup who enjoyed being posted and I have met a few who do have some lingering issues with scar tissue rubbing on the cartilage but I am not sure how common of an issue that is. 

I have no qualms with docking if done by someone who knows how/when it's done. I also have no issue with throwing someone's sorry ass in jail if they do a kitchen butcher job on it. We turned in a guy who did a scissor crop/dock on a min pin puppy with no anesthesia at all and then came to us to clean up his mess because he couldn't get the ear bleeds to stop.


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## Martin Espericueta

Melissa Blazak said:


> ...I still believe in free choice. While I would fully support a ban on...


Not to be argumentative, but when a "country/government/state/organization" BANS something like this - our "free(dom) of choice is taken away. Not a place I want to live, or own a dog.


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## Martin Espericueta

Joby Becker said:


> ...my pea brain...


Yeah, what pea brain said. (didnt read your comment before I posted mine Joby)

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