# "force" retrieve...



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Was curious about something..

If it is necessary to train a* forced* retrieve...how outdated is the koehler method...I was reading a book I found in my stack, the open OB one by him....

the method seems pretty harsh, but fair....

is this similar to how most people would train a "forced" retrieve today or vastly different? 

I realize there are newer, more positive ways to train most things that he has written about..was wondering about this one specifically....


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

> If it is necessary to train a* forced* retrieve


Perhaps I am hijacking the thread right off the bat but the first question is this: What types of situations/dogs fit into the "if it is necessary" category?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

IMO the forced retrieve is more reliable although I don't like to do it, I have.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Lit said:


> Perhaps I am hijacking the thread right off the bat but the first question is this: What types of situations/dogs fit into the "if it is necessary" category?


whatever type of dog that would need to be trained in a "forced" retrieve...LOL....let say for Schutzhund...I know there are plenty of people that train a forced retrieve out there...for dogs that will not retrieve reliably...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> IMO the forced retrieve is more reliable although I don't like to do it, I have.


are you familiar with the method as koehler describes it? pretty intensive and very small increments, with a lot of correction along the way...I read it and it seems that it would produce a VERY reliable retrieve..

I have found many of koehlers methods work fine for various things, if you have a sound..*strong* dog....was wondering if the retrieve method he used is about the same as most people do it...thats all....


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

I will never force a dog to do something that I haven't taught him to through positive motivation.
With that said, I use an ecollar to teach my forced fetch. Slow and steady is the name of the game. I start by making him hold things he already likes. Once he is fetching and holding it properly, I then generalise.

Please, the forced fetch should not be tried by amateurs. Thank you. **


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## Ashley Allstun (Aug 8, 2009)

I know there are a lot of people that don't like it, but clicker/marker training a retrieve really seems like the way to go for me. One of my dogs went from not caring about the dumbell whatsoever to loving the thing. It gets really fast retrieves, as well (in my experience), and the dog looks happy doing it. *shrug* I'm not sure if there are dogs that this would not work on - I suppose dogs not interested in food as a reward would be difficult, but that would make it difficult to train almost anything positively. Toys are usually too stimulating to use as a reward while teaching something.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Why would you have reliablity problems with a motivational retrieve? Does the dog not want it's toy?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Was curious about something..
> 
> If it is necessary to train a* forced* retrieve...how outdated is the koehler method...I was reading a book I found in my stack, the open OB one by him....
> 
> ...


I posted in another thread Arrek was forced retrieved that is as far from the truth as I could have been.
Jen said he clicker trained for retrieves I'm in shock and amazed here is the video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmMcaNC5kjw


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Why would you have reliablity problems with a motivational retrieve? Does the dog not want it's toy?



clowning


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> clowning


Is that another term for poorly trained focus or lack of drive?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Is that another term for poorly trained focus or lack of drive?


AMEN! 
The method isn't as near important as correct usage of it. 
Method can be determined by the dog's drives. 
I'll forever us as much motivational as I can but will use correction.....if needed. 
"If needed" is one of those phrases that can only be defined by the individual user.
Old habits, my own temperment, whatever. I try and avoid correction training as much as possible simply because I tend to let "old habits, personel temperment, whatever" get the best of me. 
With motivational I may have to work a bit harder to keep my control but the results have been fantastic.
I continually look back at most of the dogs I've owned (regardless of successes) and wonder "What if"!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I don't even own a dumbell...LOL

I was just wondering and asked a specific question about the forced retrieve training, like to learn about new things...
Not planning on stuffing a dumbell in my dogs mouth LOL


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

I've seen forced retrieves being taught by persons who know what they are doing - it's just personally not my preferred method if it is not "needed". I know some train the forced right off the bat; some resort to the forced when something has gone astray somewhere leading to the dog not being reliable in this exercise. I do often wonder if the "need" for a forced retireve may come from a lack of foundation training somewhere along the line that then lead to the "need"? I don't belive that a forced retrieve is the only way to achieve reliability; otherwise, does the same hold true for all other exercises?...that they too must also only be trained through negative punishment/correction based techniques in order to gain a reliable response? Or does it really just come down to individual training preferences?


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I have seen force retrieve by means of the koehler and other ways.Works like a charm and gives reliable performance in dogs.
*Maybe *it is neccesary in older dogs who have a lot of resistance (handler agression)but as a whole i do not think it should be used as a rule.
I have trained dogs to retrieve which cringed at the sight of a dumbell and later they became retrieve attics.
We now have much more insight in training dogs and we should be able to get into their heads without them knowing it.
Compulsion training works well but only in dogs with ;special; needs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> I have seen force retrieve by means of the koehler and other ways.Works like a charm and gives reliable performance in dogs.
> *Maybe *it is neccesary in older dogs who have a lot of resistance (handler agression)but as a whole i do not think it should be used as a rule.
> I have trained dogs to retrieve which cringed at the sight of a dumbell and later they became retrieve attics.
> We now have much more insight in training dogs and we should be able to get into their heads without them knowing it.
> Compulsion training works well but only in dogs with ;special; needs.


The way the method is described in the book (which is written with the critics of the method in mind), is described as "motivational". :???: with affidavits, testimonials and everything...LOL


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> I have seen force retrieve by means of the koehler and other ways.Works like a charm and gives reliable performance in dogs.
> *Maybe *it is neccesary in older dogs who have a lot of resistance (handler agression)but as a whole i do not think it should be used as a rule.
> I have trained dogs to retrieve which cringed at the sight of a dumbell and later they became retrieve attics.
> We now have much more insight in training dogs and we should be able to get into their heads without them knowing it.
> Compulsion training works well but only in dogs with ;special; needs.


Jack,

My first male showline Dobermann was taught a force retrieve (back tied double prong collars etc.) by people that knew what they were doing. It was UGLY. The dogs retrieve
was reliable and fast but his overall attitude was affected in all the other exercises. I would never do another force
retrieve and have had similar reliability using motivational
methods without the baggage


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I force retrieved (start out just making the dog hold a dumbell tapping the underside of his mouth if he losen , then went to earpinching to the dumbell at further and further distances) my last Lab and my first PSD . Lab really didn't need it for retrieval . I don't really think it was needed period . The dog would retreive till he fell over from exhaustion if he could . 

It was more for the dog to committ to grabbing and holding a bird firmly . He had no problem with waterfowl but he did get a little chewy with Pheasants . The Pheasants feathers seem to come out more then waterfowl during the retrieve and bugged him a little . 

As for the PSD it was an attempt to get a stubborn dog to retreive properly and with a hope it would improve his article searching . Helped a little but he didn't really improve until he came up with Pancreatic Insuffieciancy . Then I could use food as a motivator because he was hungry all the time . 

I see a place for it but with most dogs I don't think it's neccessary .


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

If a dog has a reasonable amount of prey drive, is forced retrieve really needed?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dennis , I would say it depends on each dogs individual behaviors . For the vast majority I would say you don't need it but for others it may be needed . 

My first PSD would chase anything I threw and not retreive it though . He'd chase it down and when he caught up with it he was done . Except for real critters . Caught many a rabbit in his day . he changed after alot of work plus some "luck" too . 

Almost every dog we train are retreiving fools but occassional you get a dog that just needs a little more work . Chewy holding items or sloppy retrieves .


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

I teach a "forced" hold, snatch and grab up close in front position. Always beginning with the end in mind for a sport trainer. But I don't teach a forced anything on the retrieve itself. I want speed and motivation on the retrieve which brings the reward at the end. That speed should be where the dog releases the pressure he's under.

I use the e-collar and/or pinch, depending on the dog, in a lower state of drive. I want the dog to think and the pressure to matter. It's not playtime. I don't add in the retrieve part until I have a clear understanding from the dog in what he's supposed to do. Because you add in the running around it becomes playtime for some dogs and you see chewiness in the hold. 

Yes, most working dogs have high prey and will chase. But if you've ever heard a dog make a kill on a prey item, he doesn't have a solid grip. He's crunching down every time the animal breathes...it's certainly natural.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

> But if you've ever heard a dog make a kill on a prey item, he doesn't have a solid grip. He's crunching down every time the animal breathes...


what a lovely mental picture that made....can I get you to tell my kids some bedtime stories?


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Dennis Jones said:


> what a lovely mental picture that made....can I get you to tell my kids some bedtime stories?


You should be around here when it's possum season  I can't even remember the number of "crunchies" I've heard. Just jump up and snag 'em out of the trees. Now those are nasty critters.

Dennis do you let the kids watch NatGeo, Animal Planet, Discovery channels?! Nature is both beautiful and ugly. All part of life.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> You should be around here when it's possum season  I can't even remember the number of "crunchies" I've heard. Just jump up and snag 'em out of the trees. Now those are nasty critters.
> 
> *Dennis do you let the kids watch NatGeo, Animal Planet, Discovery channels?!* Nature is both beautiful and ugly. All part of life.


Yea, they really enjoy the wolves pulling down elk or the lions nailing a Zebra stuff....twisted little monsters, don't know where they get that from


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Dennis Jones said:


> If a dog has a reasonable amount of prey drive, is forced retrieve really needed?


No. 

You can goto any dog park in America and watch dogs with fast retrieves whom have never had any formal retrieve training. Just a handler and a ball.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> You should be around here when it's possum season  I can't even remember the number of "crunchies" I've heard. Just jump up and snag 'em out of the trees. Now those are nasty critters.
> 
> Dennis do you let the kids watch NatGeo, Animal Planet, Discovery channels?! Nature is both beautiful and ugly. All part of life.


Hell, I do not even shield my 2 and 4 year olds eyes from a female naked body on T.V. they cannot watch any sex, but if a women shows her boobies and they see it, I doubt they will become sex crazed serial killers.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> I teach a "forced" hold, snatch and grab up close in front position. Always beginning with the end in mind for a sport trainer. But I don't teach a forced anything on the retrieve itself. I want speed and motivation on the retrieve which brings the reward at the end. That speed should be where the dog releases the pressure he's under.
> 
> I use the e-collar and/or pinch, depending on the dog, in a lower state of drive. I want the dog to think and the pressure to matter. It's not playtime. I don't add in the retrieve part until I have a clear understanding from the dog in what he's supposed to do. Because you add in the running around it becomes playtime for some dogs and you see chewiness in the hold.
> 
> Yes, most working dogs have high prey and will chase. But if you've ever heard a dog make a kill on a prey item, he doesn't have a solid grip. He's crunching down every time the animal breathes...it's certainly natural.



Not necessarily! Many terriers use the "shake and break" method with no crunching. Trust me! 8-[
AND it never had any effect on their retrieving.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

"Yes, most working dogs have high prey and will chase. But if you've ever heard a dog make a kill on a prey item, he doesn't have a solid grip. He's crunching down every time the animal breathes...it's certainly natural."

Candy, my only thought on this is why do we get solid grips wthout using pressure to insure a calm grip with a dog in highest of thier prey drive during protection?

I can believe that dogs may do this naturally to kill an animal, But I am not so sure just because a dog is in prey that they treat a dumb bell or sleeve in the same manner.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

James Downey said:


> "Yes, most working dogs have high prey and will chase. But if you've ever heard a dog make a kill on a prey item, he doesn't have a solid grip. He's crunching down every time the animal breathes...it's certainly natural."
> 
> Candy, my only thought on this is why do we get solid grips wthout using pressure to insure a calm grip with a dog in highest of thier prey drive during protection?
> 
> I can believe that dogs may do this naturally to kill an animal, But I am not so sure just because a dog is in prey that they treat a dumb bell or sleeve in the same manner.


The original question I was answering was "If a dog has a reasonable amount of prey drive, is a forced retrieve necessary?" 

At least from a sport training aspect I still feel that teaching a solid hold (some are more natural than others) on the dumbbell/object is necessary. JMO. The dumbbell is basically "dead prey" once it hits the ground. I don't think we need to teach most working dogs to chase ;-) Whether that be the sleeve, rabbit or neighborhood cat!


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Not necessarily! Many terriers use the "shake and break" method with no crunching. Trust me! 8-[
> AND it never had any effect on their retrieving.


Bob I had 'dem "shake, rattle and roll" little bassids for years! My older Malinois does the same thing...he'll snap a neck (don't go getting all fluffy on me, Dennis ) of smaller prey. Maybe it's because he was raised with a Terrier as a pup?! Hmmmmm ;-)


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

A retrieve is more than just chasing a dumbell and sometimes the going after it is not the problem.
Sometimes a force retrieve is necessary to put all the parts together so the dog understands the whole exercise.Some dogs attack the dumbell and than it is up to you to get it from him.\\/


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> A retrieve is more than just chasing a dumbell and sometimes the going after it is not the problem.
> Sometimes a force retrieve is necessary to put all the parts together so the dog understands the whole exercise.Some dogs attack the dumbell and than it is up to you to get it from him.\\/



I would look at that as a training issue more then a method issue if the dog doesn't want to give it up. 
I agree 100% that it can happen in particular if the dog is "chasing a dumbell". 
Taught in prey if can often times lead to this IF it's not done correctly. 
That being said, If not using motivational, a bit of force would be my choice over making it a prey game.


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