# Forced Schutzhund Tracking



## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

I want to learn more about forced Schutzhund tracking. How does one do it? I have heard of many people using this method on dogs that find the articles but will not stay on the track. Any advice? 

Thanks


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Its like describing the color blue 
There are many ways and levels to do it.
One thing for certain a dog board is not the place to learn this. Many a good dog have fallen to the way side with bad forced tracking.
Gene England is the go to guy and one of the pioneers he has destroyed more dogs than prolly any one in the country. He has it figured out now. His losses is can be your/our gain.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Just curious, but why would you want to force a dog to track?

As Mike S mentioned a dog can be ruined this way. I have seen many dogs trained with force go from a perfect score one trial to a zero the next. And many more never track at all after incorrect training. 

Much better to use motivation to get the dog to track, and then use leash corrections later on once the dog understands how to stay on the track, & indicate articles.

How old is your dog and are you training towards a title?

Tracey


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree with the above. You MUST really know what you're doing to do this.Club trials and even reginals you want to have fun. The big boys that train for world events use forced tracking, not all though.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

My dog is 2 1/2 . He is doing ok in his tracking and I know with more practice he will get better. He downs on articles but every so often he gets off the track but someone finds the article anyway. I would like to go for my 1 this winter but may opt for the Schutzhund A instead, if things do not get better and wait until next year to get my Schutzhund I. I am happy with my dog's process despite the fact that we only been training for Schutzhund for 6 months.

I heard some guys at talking about forced tracking and told me that it was ugly and I would have to see it. You are right that the person that uses it, is a world team competitor. 

I was just wondering if others on this board used forced tracking and if so, what is their methods. I am going to watch a forced track next weekend...not sure that I am going to have the stomach for it. Since, I only use corrections for acts of defiance when I know my dog has learned the desired behavior.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I will give a small example of a incident that happened on my last track. I have been working on corners so I set up my corner this way. I dropped a article 7 to 10 paces before and after the turn Im not going to explain the lesson just the event.
At the article before the turn my dog is down with a perfect indication suddenly the sprinklers come on and start soaking us I pick up my article and start my dog he pencils the corner perfectly but coming out of the corner he stops tracking decides to shake the water off of himself I have a article about 3 paces in front of him I am still very close to the dog when I see the dog stop tracking and begin shaking I say find it my ( my phrase you better get to ****ing work or else) and I correct the dog calmly forward to the article which is the safe place. I do not reward this article I pick it up and start the dog he tracks perfect to the next article about a 100 paces I pay him with food heavily I know he is pressured and wanting to get the tickling water off of him self. I start him he pencils the next corner and finds the last article.r I pay him heavily again with food I release him and tell him he is done he immediately begins to shake the water off and want to play. 
I could not have scripted this incident and lesson any more perfectly but it just happened the tracking gods were with us on this one.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Jones said:


> My dog is 2 1/2 . He is doing ok in his tracking and I know with more practice he will get better. He downs on articles but every so often he gets off the track but someone finds the article anyway. I would like to go for my 1 this winter but may opt for the Schutzhund A instead, if things do not get better and wait until next year to get my Schutzhund I. I am happy with my dog's process despite the fact that we only been training for Schutzhund for 6 months.
> 
> I heard some guys at talking about forced tracking and told me that it was ugly and I would have to see it. You are right that the person that uses it, is a world team competitor.
> 
> I was just wondering if others on this board used forced tracking and if so, what is their methods. I am going to watch a forced track next weekend...not sure that I am going to have the stomach for it. Since, I only use corrections for acts of defiance when I know my dog has learned the desired behavior.


If done properly it shouldn't be brutal


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike is right, you have to go to someone who knows what they are doing, it is not the kind of thing you can learn to do over the net, and I would go one step further, no one needs to try to give force training pointers over the net. Something else to consider, not all dogs are of the calibre to handle force training, which is another reason only the very good and very experienced should teach it, as they have to be able to guage how much the dog can take, it's a fine line and not for the inexperienced. 

Personally I don't have a problem with force training, it teaches the dog "I must EVERY TIME", but only when it's done right. That said, I know I DON'T know enough to do it myself, but I do know enough to only go to the right trainers for it.


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## Xavier Neme (Sep 15, 2008)

You should definitely not try to do forced tracking with what you learn over the internet or read somewhere or what somebody tells you. Forced tracking doesn't take one day either, it's a long process, so if you want to do that, you must have VERY SPECIFIC goals in mind, and your dog must have the right hardness, drives and temperament to take it. I think forced tracking should only be done by very experienced people that have tried all kinds of tracking methods before (and were successful with them); Plus, I believe if your dog is not superb in the other two phases and you not are planning to go to at least the national level, then you should absolutely skip trying to do a forced track and forced article indication on your dog - there would be no point in doing that. Just my opinion. But if you decide to go ahead and do a forced track, then you must find the right guy to teach it to you, and you have to be close enough to him to be able to follow the whole process with it, because it also is a thing that you cannot leave halfway through - once you start, you have to finish it for the dog's sake.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Xavier Neme said:


> You should definitely not try to do forced tracking with what you learn over the internet or read somewhere or what somebody tells you. Forced tracking doesn't take one day either, it's a long process, so if you want to do that, you must have VERY SPECIFIC goals in mind, and your dog must have the right hardness, drives and temperament to take it. I think forced tracking should only be done by very experienced people that have tried all kinds of tracking methods before (and were successful with them); Plus, I believe if your dog is not superb in the other two phases and you not are planning to go to at least the national level, then you should absolutely skip trying to do a forced track and forced article indication on your dog - there would be no point in doing that. Just my opinion. But if you decide to go ahead and do a forced track, then you must find the right guy to teach it to you, and you have to be close enough to him to be able to follow the whole process with it, because it also is a thing that you cannot leave halfway through - once you start, you have to finish it for the dog's sake.


Every thing that he said!!!Well put!!!
As far as I'm concerned this could be locked all has been said that should be said or discussed on a dog board. I'm out of this one.:-#


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Just curious, but why would you want to force a dog to track?


This is my question too?.....

Although I have not yet started article tracking, I LOVE to train this part....(YES I am an odd duck I guess)...

I can only think that if the reward is great enough and you make the whole thing a FUN process, these issues would be minimal.....I use daily meals to train tracking so I don't have an issue with them leaving the track or being crooked.....(except for two days ago when we flushed a baby kitten, then he left the track but came back when I said NAY!!) 

I swear, I am going to start offering Sch Tracking for people who don't want to train it....it is really a FUN challenge for me....but then, I have always liked watching paint dry....LOL :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

(after what I have researched and been told about forced tracking, I would NEVER do it) ](*,)


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> If done properly it shouldn't be brutal


 
And just because force is not brutual does not mean it will produce good results.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I have two questions for everyone.

So why do the people that train for world level comp. use forced tracking?

Next question: If their dog isn't good enough to do it with positive motivation and they use forced tracking, then what makes that dog world class???


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I have two questions for everyone.
> 
> So why do the people that train for world level comp. use forced tracking?
> 
> Next question: If their dog isn't good enough to do it with positive motivation and they use forced tracking, then what makes that dog world class???


Dammit I will answer When it comes down to perfect track and the example I gave with my dog stopping and shaking and another dog that doesn't is the difference.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I just got back in from tracking 4 of my dogs(a GSD, a Mal, a DS and an AB) and it really is a fun phase to work in for me now(I used to loathe it until I really grasped the concept!), there is actually quite a bit of thinking in it and I enjoy the challenges each dog brings. 

There certainly is a place for compulsion in the later stages but as Jerry said...

If their dog isn't good enough to do it with positive motivation and they use forced tracking, then what makes that dog world class???


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

wow great topic

are u guys sure you want to call forced tracking..
call it what u will safe zone compulsion whatever.

i would call it obedience.. the dog must be proofed in obiedience ie dumbell a frame long down.
if you don't train and proof your work you have no obiedience. so lets call it force tracking i had a dog w/ know food drive " he will never track" sch 1 100pnts sch 3 96pnt fh 96pt . not bad for first dog. but i must thank chico stanford for all his help.. great teacher for dog and the handler..the only way that i can explain it is if you demand excellence in ob. and protection why should tracking be any diff.

ps where do u live i might be able to find someone to help u..

greatest expience on the track was when chico said close your eyes and TRUST your dog WOW !!!

NOW YOU ARE TRACKING


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## Xavier Neme (Sep 15, 2008)

I think the difference is whether you do Schutzhund to try to win a World Championship or if you just do it to have fun and you are just trying to get some titles on your dogs and do the best you can do without putting a lot of pressure on your dog. 
If we are realistic, positive techniques are great, but a correction phase is needed if you want to raise the percentage of reliability you can achieve with these techniques - Could you imagine if there was only positive rewards instead of "punishment" for breaking traffic laws and other behavioral boundaries we have in society nowadays? Not even us humans can work solely with positive rewards in mind, there is a need for "compulsion" and undesired consequences for certain actions, and the knowledge of these consequences is what usually keeps us from breaking these boundaries (at least in some cases). 
Ok, I guess I am really off topic here, but I think that a World Class dog has to have certain genetic qualities of course, but the quality of the training is what really makes the difference (whether it's positive or compulsive, or a combination of both and a mixture of a lot of techniques). World Championship dogs are not just there because of the dog itself... many things come into the equation (the helpers, the handler, the people that help with the training, and maybe even a bit of luck in pairing the right dog with the right handler), and even the best dog, when he is in the wrong hands or taught with the wrong techniques for that particular dog means he is just going to end up being a "could have been" dog.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I had no idea there even was such a thing. Learn something new every day I guess.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I watched it done once with a Rottie. There were threel people plus the handler. One person was in front of the dog with a leash in hand, the other behind with a leash in hand (on the side of the track). The third person held the remote for the TT e-collar. The person in front served two purposes - to prong the dog if it did not immediately start tracking when told, and to keep the dog from going up the leash at the handler when told to track. The person behind kept the dog from going up the leash at the person in front. I'm not sure what they used the TT for, unless it was to be used in case the dog DID get to someone, because the dog went down on the articles no problem. It was not fun to watch.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I watched it done once with a Rottie. There were threel people plus the handler. One person was in front of the dog with a leash in hand, the other behind with a leash in hand (on the side of the track). The third person held the remote for the TT e-collar. The person in front served two purposes - to prong the dog if it did not immediately start tracking when told, and to keep the dog from going up the leash at the handler when told to track. The person behind kept the dog from going up the leash at the person in front. I'm not sure what they used the TT for, unless it was to be used in case the dog DID get to someone, because the dog went down on the articles no problem. It was not fun to watch.


Does anyone do this outside of sport? It doesn't sound too humane!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I've seen this simular. There were two long lines and one e-collar. The handler had the long line behind the dog with the remote. The other long line was to pull the dog off track. When he was off track the remote was used to make the dog get back on track which is his safe place. This is force tracking. You are forcing a dog to track or else. These dogs get really good points. I wonder why. The sad part is I have mixed emotions here. How much is too much??? Does this training prove the dog is really good or does it prove that the trainer knows his stuff and that will MAKE a dog good??? Somebody has to be the winner so you do what you can to win. Wrong. This has been discused before but does high points make that dog more desirable for breeding or does that make the trainer more desiraable to have in your corner? 

This is getting deep, right? Just another way to look at things.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Next question: If their dog isn't good enough to do it with positive motivation and they use forced tracking, then what makes that dog world class???


And another way to look at it is if the dog comes out of the forced tracking still a strong dog, doesn't that say something about the dog?

Laura


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Yes it does. IMO


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> And another way to look at it is if the dog comes out of the forced tracking still a strong dog, doesn't that say something about the dog?
> 
> Laura


It maybe does.... but then...is the willingness to work not a priority, and to work well. That Terry chap from down south with the hounds who catches the crims.... I wonder if he uses force track methods. ...I do of course realise his discipline is a little different but at the same time....it is the willingness which is desired as well as the trainability is it not?

What is it then.... the ability to take this kind of pressure of training methods... or the ability to undertake the task at hand without this kind of training?

I don't know, I'm new to all of this.... I thought tracking was about harnessing the dogs ability and keeness to scent and track, and guiding is what the human input was. Like I've already said, I'm new to this but the concept of forced tracking being described as it has been, doesn't rest very easy with me.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

The thing about force tracking is that it's designed to keep the dog on the track like a train on a track, rather than casting about, doing what is natural to the dog as far as tracking is concerned. When a dog looks like it's on rails as it goes down a track in SchH, that's big points. It's not about forcing the dog to actually track.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

This is as good as it gets www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV7retd4WQU&feature=related


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That is Wallace Payne and Pedro(Merlin). Wallace is a super trainer as everyone knows. Pedro is a great dog but if it wasn't for Wallace, Pedro would never be that good with most trainers.

I'm sorry and this is my opinion, schutzhund is more about the ability of the trainer than the dog. Not in all cases of course because I've seen great dogs out shine their handler/trainer.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

That video never gets old. I like watching my dogs daddy.

Sure Wallace is talented (no question about that), but Pedro brought it. Good trainers don't usually waste their time on dogs that can't.

I do believe this goes back to the whole "natural/real dog vs the sport dog" debate.


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## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

> schutzhund is more about the ability of the trainer than the dog


100% correct and that is why breeding to the winners of big schutzhund events just because they won or placed high is stupid unless your just trying to sell puppies


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> That is Wallace Payne and Pedro(Merlin). Wallace is a super trainer as everyone knows. Pedro is a great dog but if it wasn't for Wallace, Pedro would never be that good with most trainers.
> 
> I'm sorry and this is my opinion, schutzhund is more about the ability of the trainer than the dog. Not in all cases of course because I've seen great dogs out shine their handler/trainer.


Let's give Pedro his due, the 98 in protection at the WUSV in 2006 was not just a fluke. Plus he and his Korean handler aren't doing too badly, a 99 for high in tracking at the 2008 WUSV and I think also a 92 in protection. So really, yes the handler/trainer has a lot to do with it in ANY dog sport (a shitty trainer couldn't do shit with a great dog either) , but that doesn't take away from this dogs accomplishments.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I did say that Pedro was (is) a great dog. I just added that with most trainers he wouldn't be that good. Wallace is IMO as good as they come. I've trained with Wallace and believe me he is top notch.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

It's not just true about schutzhund, it's true about every dog sport, there is no "natural dog" sport, nor do I think it would prove anything if there was. After all, a dog has to be trainable, the biggest, baddest monster in the world is nothing but a junk yard dog if he can't be handled and trained successfully.


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## Xavier Neme (Sep 15, 2008)

You know, I heard this from Wallace himself, he said SchH tracking has absolutely nothing to do with REAL life as far as dog work goes, but that he doesn't care if the dog is capable of doing real work or not (at least not with his Schutzhund dogs). He is in Schutzhund to do Schutzhund and his goal is to win AT SCHUTZHUND, not to wonder if his dog can protect him when the time for that comes about. Who cares if the dog can bring it in real life if you are as good a trainer as he is. And he also said, if somebody tried to attack him, the first thing he would do is try to protect his dog, get his shotgun and take care of the whole thing himself, hahaha.
I hope he doesn't retire after Bok, like he is planning...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've stood next to Wallace.  the man doesn't need a dog for protection!
The only dog I personelly know that was fource trained to FST would lie through her teeth when she missed a corner. Just keep going straing and never lift her head because of fear of correction. 
She was retrained motivationally (food) and is a high 90s tracking dog now.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I too know a few dogs that have been force trained tracking, they score consistently in the high 90s and even 100 every now and again.

Xavier, I agree with Wallace Payne. No dog stands a chance against a knife or a gun, (to say nothing of a lawsuit), my job is to protect my dog, not the other way around, and my dog actually is rather civil.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Xavier Neme said:


> I think the difference is whether you do Schutzhund to try to win a World Championship or if you just do it to have fun and you are just trying to get some titles on your dogs and do the best you can do without putting a lot of pressure on your dog.
> If we are realistic, positive techniques are great, but a correction phase is needed if you want to raise the percentage of reliability you can achieve with these techniques - Could you imagine if there was only positive rewards instead of "punishment" for breaking traffic laws and other behavioral boundaries we have in society nowadays? Not even us humans can work solely with positive rewards in mind, there is a need for "compulsion" and undesired consequences for certain actions, and the knowledge of these consequences is what usually keeps us from breaking these boundaries (at least in some cases).
> Ok, I guess I am really off topic here, but I think that a World Class dog has to have certain genetic qualities of course, but the quality of the training is what really makes the difference (whether it's positive or compulsive, or a combination of both and a mixture of a lot of techniques). World Championship dogs are not just there because of the dog itself... many things come into the equation (the helpers, the handler, the people that help with the training, and maybe even a bit of luck in pairing the right dog with the right handler), and even the best dog, when he is in the wrong hands or taught with the wrong techniques for that particular dog means he is just going to end up being a "could have been" dog.


 
Thanks for this post, I believe that compulstion has to be balanced with motivation & only used when necessary to get the results you desire. I did a forced retrieve on my dog. He would retrieve before but he was not consistant. Now he understands that he must retrieve the dumbbell or there will be consequences.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> The thing about force tracking is that it's designed to keep the dog on the track like a train on a track, rather than casting about, doing what is natural to the dog as far as tracking is concerned. When a dog looks like it's on rails as it goes down a track in SchH, that's big points. It's not about forcing the dog to actually track.


You are right Kristen. There are some dogs that track perfectly naturally, slow and methodical like robots. There are others dogs that think things through and search there environment for other options. Even though for police work that is goo, for Schutzhund the judge looks for dogs that track slow and methodically for the article. I am not 100% sure that I will do a force track on my dog, I just want more information and to see it done.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

My dog scored 96 in tracking today we were looking at 100 till the last turn he is force tracked and he don't lie. In judge Banfields critique she described him as a tracking machine.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My trainer once said that there's no reason for the dog to leave the track and if he does, then correction.

With a highly motivated tracking dog, sometimes just a "no" will make him realise you're "running the show". For me, teaching a dog as done with the Rottie would take the pleasure out of tracking for me. 
The Germans call it "Fleissarbeit" meaning the dog has to deliver but to do this it has to have enough tracks under various conditions, at various times of the day, on various grounds, etc. and not just the usual SchH pattern. This makes for a reliable dog and then obedience doesn't have to be a dirty word. 

I was once guilty of "cutting the corners" and this is fatal. I always tried to step up the difficulties, before the dog was sure on the easier tracks. One lives and learns.

The thing with tracking is conditions are not the same for each participant. Time of day, sun on a track laid in dew, strong winds, constant rain, etc. A dog that has been allowed to do tracking in all these conditions, and allowed to lead the handler to the end of the track should come through. I think I'd rather lose a few points but be able to rely on my dog.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> My dog scored 96 in tracking today we were looking at 100 till the last turn he is force tracked and he don't lie. In judge Banfields critique she described him as a tracking machine.


Congrats Mike...very nice score indeed


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Congrats Mike. Well done.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike, super result, one to be proud of!!!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

NICE!! Congratulations. How's the rest of the trial going?? More importantly, what's the food like? 

Laura


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You think he feels like eating? :smile:


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> My dog scored 96 in tracking today we were looking at 100 till the last turn he is force tracked and he don't lie. In judge Banfields critique she described him as a tracking machine.


Mike congratulations on a job well done. What method did you use to force track your dog? I am going to watch the 2 line/eCollar method next weekend.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

My female was started out motivationally, did very well and was a very good tracker but one day I think she just started messing around. It felt like she wasn't giving 100% of what she could do, and my trainer suggested we force track her. He does this with all of his competition dogs at one point or another. He's had several dogs with 100 pt. FH's and FH2's so I felt I was in good hands.
He showed me what to do, and over a couple weeks I did it under his guidance and by myself. Obviously I don't want to go into too much detail because it'd be very very easy to ruin a dog if you do it wrong. My dog got the idea pretty quickly, I didn't use an e-collar but used 2 prongs. It may have been more humane to use an e-collar but I didn't own one at the time! I hated doing it but once I started I knew if I stopped there I'd be screwed, so I saw it through.
It is something that's stressful on the dog and IMO a dog needs to have a good understanding of tracking (especially articles) before force tracking them. And I'm sure there are dogs that couldn't handle that level of correction.

Once my dog got the idea, she tracked better than ever. I don't have to correct her much anymore, she gets the idea and tracks correctly and happily, tail wagging. If she gets lost, I will help her but if she screws around she'll get corrected. I still make sure I know exactly where the track is so I know the second she's off it.

Hope that helps a bit. I could get a video of her tracking sometime. I wouldn't video how to force track but if I have to correct her that'd be fine.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Jones said:


> Mike congratulations on a job well done. What method did you use to force track your dog? I am going to watch the 2 line/eCollar method next weekend.


Im not sure what your going to see so I will not pass judgement as these are all excellent tools used properly. In the wrong hands they could cause me to go kick the fuk out of somebody.
My dog has a excellent foundation and problem solving skills he is a natural tracker. He doesn't need food or toys to motivate him he motivated by the track it self plain and simple.
I use food and articles to reward problem solving, slow him or manipulate him that is how he was taught and that is still the foundation of his program and how we continue to do it. He was V scoring most days now he is a V scoring dog every day the force we used was for discipline not to make him track or make him comply. AGHAIN a dog board is not the place to arm chair this process.
Now that my Schutzhund I is out of the way I will be doing a force retrieve and and I can guarantee you this I will not be using a pliers.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> NICE!! Congratulations. How's the rest of the trial going?? More importantly, what's the food like?
> 
> Laura


It went pretty much as I expected In fact my point prediction was on the mark 273 96 83 94 The only difference was I expected to V in protection and less in obedience my dog has only had a dumbell in his mouth including the trial prolly 10 times. He has a firm genetic grip he had no fronts and didn't come back over the jump I new this going in there was no surprises. The points I was given were for drive and grip.
In protection gave one bump on the helper coming in to the blind he got a bad presentation and bite on the attack after the escape he filled the bite during drive :mrgreen: the helper told the judge it was his fault not the dogs but that how it goes it wasn't bad any way. The judge commanded during the critique that the dog countered and filled the bite wile taking stick hits and being driven. 
The test of courage was spectacular until last week he had only done three full field's his entire life one of which is his youtube video the other two were that same weekend. So it was over a year since he had done one. (sort of blows the shit out of the myth Schutzhund is all rehearsed and trained):lol: This one looked just like the Youtube only no sleeve slip.
The other big thing was the obedience in the transport back to the Judge. After we started moving forward my dog decided to go to the other side of the helper and escort him on that side I kept my mouth shut the points were lost. It sort of looked good his position was perfect and he sat nicely wile we reported out.
Gillian is rite I did not eat however I did have a look see and my wife ate There was sausages, hamburgers and pork loin with onions peppers roasted corn on the cob pasta and potato salads.
I did have a ear of corn and a sausage after it was all said and done.
Oh and thank you all for the congrats.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Well done, Mike, congrats! \\/ Also thanks for the play by play too.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Congrats Mike!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> My dog scored 96 in tracking today we were looking at 100 till the last turn he is force tracked and he don't lie. In judge Banfields critique she described him as a tracking machine.


Mike,

You think it might be time to update the old profile?

"Training: Don't Own a Dog"


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