# looking for some advice-long



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

It pains me to have to ask for advice, but success means more to me than my ego I guess...

Okay, so some of you know I have this young mal I am training for my next avalanche dog. 

Background:
I would describe her as very drivey, I love her hunt drive, prey drive and so on. She is not spinny or twitchy or nervous when not in drive, I really like this too. She likes people, has no problem meeting new ones even if they are wearing full face helmets, googles and funny clothing and carrying weird stuff...just trying to say she isn't spooky. She is not really voice sensitive at all, not super physically hard at 39 lbs, but is not physically sensitive either, I have yet to shut her down with any pressure I have dished out. She has low thresholds in that it takes nothing to get her from chill to full on. 

Her obedience and her engagement with me is good for her age (11 months) and my ability. 
I am starting to bring her around my work (ski hill) environment on days off. She can pull off some pretty decent formal ob for food and toy rewards around crowds strangers and skiers zipping by and such. 

I can also walk around the base area of the mountain without asking for engagement/reward free and she is behaved.

Problem:
My problem comes outside of having her directly engaged with me once she gets into a "higher place" in her head. She starts to load with all the activity around. One of the signs of this is her making some "weasle" noises, not quite whinning, but not barking....can progress from there though... She is not a whinner/leaker (like some GSD's I have seen) normally.

An example of this would be on the chairlift with me. She just has to sit there for the 7 min ride, watching skiers below. She will stay laying accross my lap, but the 'weasle noise" will start up at about halfway.

More concerning is that she is now doing it on the mountain as I am teaching her to travel on the mountain while I am on skis. This is an example of what I am teaching her now:
http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/farwesttoller/?action=view&current=Intower6.mp4

So, she is doing well learning that, I use a prong to keep her from pulling ahead to reinforce staying between my legs. The position was taught without skis on land positively first. I have given her a command that says she can "pull" when I hold her harness and she can drag me accross the flats.

Okay so the problem part is that I can't travel the whole mountain like that, we need to take breaks, sometimes I need to pick her up and ski some pitches holding on to her or I have to chat with poeple and so on.

So the act of running gets her stimulated I guess. When we stop, mid slope she gets fixated very quickly (she is likely becomming fixated while we are running) on the zooming skiers and snowboarders going by and goes weasle on me. If I work hard on some engagement, I will have it and she will ignore the distractions. BUT if I just give her a command, like down, or just have her stand there on leash and she can watch...she loads and gets fixated.

Unfortunately I don't have any vid that shows the full extent of the issue since I am alone at the time, or the things I have tried to correct it, but I do have this short clip I took. This is not as bad as it gets, I was just trying to get it on tape, not do anything about it in this clip.
http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/farwesttoller/?action=view&current=MOV05210.mp4

For the record...this is what I have tried:

-just taking my skis off at the side of a slope, having her down and watch, hoping she would become desensitized. Only did it for ten min, she was building and building...she would occationally break, enforced command with prong..she can whine, bark, snarl in a down I found out.

-She has a "relax", drop your drive command, but it doesn't work when she is that high...tried it.

-tried interupting early, with voice, touch...not long lasting at all

-tried prong correction....escalates, makes her snarly

-tried with no emotion, lifting her feet off the ground with slip lead...

Have not tried:

Electricity...e-collar approaches to solving this are welcome..

General shit kicking...I would have to go a ways with her...and there are a LOT of poeple watching.

Many slower approaches...I am a little impatient and have high expectations.

I hope I have painted a picture, and not just of my ineptitude. Sooooo...any ideas? I am not in a hurry with this (except in my head), fast and slow, positive and compulsive approches will be considered.

Thanks in advance.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

what type of searching does she do? can you do a search at the threshold where she isn't weasely, and then move the search closer and closer to the slopes? move in slowly to see that she stays on the task of hunting.

Reward her quiet moments with a tug?

Teach a very good down. Strong. Down means down. Even if she gets weasely noised, she doesn't break it.

If weasel noises are the worst you have to deal with to get that kind of drive, I would just get used to it, and try and train it out a little at a time.

I'd like to see more video of what you are doing. Interesting stuff.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Good thing you chose a Mal for this work. LOL

I have nothing. If she is spinning up from all the activity, and she has to stay still, I guess it is more OB.

Have you heard of French ring ? LOL My guess is you have the wrong dog for what you do. You will have to hurt her to get her out of that state, and why ? The OB can be improved for sure, but what is her reward at the end ? Does she stay in that state after the reward ? Is she thinking that the reward is caused by the skiers going by ?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sounds very much like Fawkes for herding. He'd proceed to the Malinois Meltdown pretty quickly (AKA: lots of similar vocalizing and pretty much hysterical barking), especially if he had to watch another dog working sheep and the sheep started running. Physical corrections, especially with a prong collar but also with an e-collar and a slip collar, do nothing except make him more uncooperative. Allowing him to load hoping he'd desensitize did nothing. With him, about the only thing that would is taking him out of the situation with some kind of cue word that says, "oops, you messed up, so we're going away" and then coming back over little by little when he'd chill the eff out just a tiny bit.  Basically teaching them to cap their own drives. Adding in some obedience like you've been doing to give their silly little brains something to think about is helpful too. So in other words, you're rewarding them when the attitude is correct. That's going to be really hard on the chairlift though. I would say one good thing is that she's still mostly looking at you (from the video) instead of the distractions (my dog only has eyes for the sheep when he gets into that state).

Playing a hard game of fetch for 20-30 minutes before hand also helps take a tiny bit of the edge off. If you could get her running up hill in snow for a toy, that'd be a little helpful, I'd suspect. Probably not the same for your work, but the more you build up frustration with corrections, the worse it gets. I've just recently switched to no long line or prong, but using the e-collar (trying to use it more sparingly) and muzzle for herding and we made some good progress today. Try as best as you can to reward a good, clear headed attitude. I struggle with this myself because we tend to ignore the dog when they're behaving and give them attention when they are not.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Considering the dog's age just wait her out to un-vocalize before starting exercise (stay still), if you start exercise while she is vocal she will be more vocal next time. Seems too young for e-collar, wrong behavior to fix with prong, a choke will help but she is just a baby.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

While I have no experience in this field, I would offer a lil different approach all together for this pup.
If it were me and had this fixation happening, I would try to distract with a shaping game something really not important, but will occupy her mind and yours. For instance, when she begins the chortling or while on the lift maybe work on a gazing exercise see how long you can get her eye and keep it. Maybe while she is in the mid slope rest, try to teach her some useless trick, something new...and unimportant and non pressure...but the key is that you have a focus and you are asking her to mentally stay with you. So simple and short session to reconnect her to you when she begins to load. Something new to try while she outgrows this stage?
Just a thought.... best of luck!
Kerry


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Teach a very good down. Strong. Down means down. Even if she gets weasely noised, she doesn't break it.
> 
> *If weasel noises are the worst you have to deal with* to get that kind of drive, I would just get used to it, and try and train it out a little at a time.


Exactly Dave .. Her Mom is a lot the same way with whatever high motivation work she does. It doesn't really matter if it herding or French Ring she gets this urge to take things into her impulsive weasley little paws, she will carry on so that I can't even think. Sometimes I want to smash her yappy carrying on mouth here to Timbuctu. :^o

As she (Mom) has gotten older she is more in control of her emotions around high stimulus. If she bugs me that much I'll put her away and then bring her out 10 minutes later after she has some time to think. Other than that just work it like any other OB exercise, it gets better with time. Pika is after all still a baby and has a lot of maturing to do. 

FWIW with the Mom as in example that may help Jenn's situation. In Ringsport it's all about working the 'line' like I said it's just a OB exercise the decoy agitates and agitates and she has to look to me before she is sent, so if she is being an ass while on the line she doesn't go if she breaks the line she gets the leash stepped on and she is taken off her feet (if I am quick enough) or a throw chain pitched at her, if she is looking for eye contact well she gets to go. I know you are not going to send her on a snowboarder LOL but you can whip out a ball on a string or a tug to interrup and break that train of thought. It's all about the interuption of the thought process and moving it seamlessly into something else. Sad to say from what you are saying it is going to have to be baby steps, you are going to have to patient. 

I know it's hard as I deal with the Mom and know how over the top the drive can be with her genetics. It is a double edged sword at times for sure. 

Ideas of the top of my head .. 

Has she been muzzle trained yet? If she has transfer that into a blindfold or an gunny sack over her eyes for the chairlift up maybe, as it is the visual stimulus that is cranking her. 

Bark Collar when she gets vocal she will correct herself ..


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Has she had her first heat yet? 

I ask because I worked with a dog who at about 10 months started this same behavior. It progressed and bothered her owner at that time enough to return her to the breeder. The dog was put up for a while and then about 6 months later she was brought out again, same thing. She was put up again and about 6 more months passed and she was brought out again this time with a different handler. Every time the result was the same. At about 2 and a half I got her, just shy 2 months shy of her 4th heat and the dog was surprisingly quiet. We all wondered why that was. Then out of the blue about 2 months later she started up. The behavior was so familiar that I checked her out for her cycle and sure enough she was in the first week of it. The breeder took her back for breeding and I never worked with her again but clearly, at least with this particular dog the behavior seemed to be largely driven off her cycles.

Geoff, I just saw your reply. That being the case then I doubt it's something as simple as being cycle related.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i think the thing Jenn is trying to say is that she doesnt want her to ALWAYS be in training, 
just chill out
i feel if you are always asking the dog to do stuff for you they do not understand how to just be a dog, for her to just stand there while snowboarders are going by shouldnt be a hard task, 
Jenn has good obedeince with this dog and the dog when " training" is with her , but i think she just wants her to NOT have to be doing a command ALL the time 

( correct me if i am wrong Jenn) 

so my suggestions would be 

wait out the whining if you can , 
how long have you tried to wait this out and ignore , 
it may take a REALLY long time , have pateince , 

the other thing i would TRY is to tap the e- collar and tell her quiet, 
it wont hurt to try , e- collar from what i have seen on her , is totally fine, she does not take it personnally , just " oh " " not that" ok,, 

so try that, it wont hurt her, and you will see if it work s


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Sounds like she is just loading up,preydrive!I guess you will have to learn to live with it,it may even get a lot worse she is still a very young dog.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> i think the thing Jenn is trying to say is that she doesnt want her to ALWAYS be in training,
> just chill out
> i feel if you are always asking the dog to do stuff for you they do not understand how to just be a dog, for her to just stand there while snowboarders are going by shouldnt be a hard task,
> Jenn has good obedeince with this dog and the dog when " training" is with her , but i think she just wants her to NOT have to be doing a command ALL the time
> ...


Honestly, I would stay away from E-collar on this one, it could create other bad behaviors or issues, and most probably will load her even more than she already is. 

Very interesting though. The good thing is she is doing most of what you want her to do now and she is young. I see how it can be frustrating as well. I think a bark collar may create a different type of whine, once she figures our what she can get away with.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jen, what was the result with the slip lead? Did you make any progress with it at all? I used one on that GSD bitch I mentioned above. At first it didn't appear to work very well especially when she was younger. When I got her she was over 2 and I did need to use it on her a quite number of times. I found it worked pretty well once she understood what I was asking of her. From time to time I'd place her in an attentive down but would have to have her break it to move away from the area when she got overloaded. Eventually she understood that if she wanted to stay in that environment and get to work a bit she'd have to do so quietly.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Sounds like she is just loading up,preydrive!I guess you will have to learn to live with it,it may even get a lot worse she is still a very young dog.


Yes Jack that's pretty well it. The Mom is the same .. When she (Mom) is in the van at the field if she is in a place where she can see the decoys or hear the clatter stick and gun she will bark herself out .. then when it is her time to work she falls off quick because she has spent so much energy barking. ](*,) The only way I rectified it was putting a bark collar on stun that still didn't fix it as if she doesn't have a bark collar on it starts all again. So I am resigned to always have the bark collar on her at training when she is put up. 

I really don't know if an e-collar will amp Jenn's dog up more or interrup the behaviour. Also I'm not sure if a bark collar would work on her either. As Jenn has said she gets angry if she gets pronged for that same behaviour. I guess she could try .. But as others have said it could create other B.S. though not sure what type. 

To me this behaviour it's still not a reason to crush an 11 mos old pup with a steam roller of electricity and pronging or choking it out. No dog is perfect so why do we always want the perfect dog? Accept it work with it .. we don't have to understand the behaviour we just need to keep bringing out the good things in our dogs and not reward the B.S. behaviour, eventually the dog will mature. The dog is still very young and won't start to mature in the head until she is 18 mos or so anyways, (and that is start to mature) they are dogs not robots. 

I'm still of the mindset that this dog offers a very good overall package for what Jenn needs and the behaviour that concerns her is more of an PITA annoyance at best. I'd like to share a video of Jenn and Pika when Pika was 8 mos old just to show everyone how much of a kick ass little dog she is and the awesome job Jenn is doing with her. I'm very proud of this team and am very happy to have been able to donate this pup to Jenn and CARDA for the important work that they do, seeing Pika and Jenn work always always brings a smile to my face. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7t2_tUfcKg


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>>>To me this behaviour it's still not a reason to crush an 11 mos old pup with a steam roller of electricity

I am NOT talking of steam rolling her with electicity ,, 

E- collar DOES NOT HAVE TO BE HIGH, to be effective, I also wouldnt do a bark collar , they are HIGH , i wouldnt start there, 

I introduced Pika to E- collar when she was here, and kept biting at their other dog, we used it as a INTERUPTER< not a correction, NOT HIGH, 

she took it VERY WELL < no bad reaction at all , 
thats why i suggested to TRY it 

Not to fry her out

try it one time, see what happends, it will NOT crush this dog , to try it , lol


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

The ecollar and taking the dog's ability to breathe away were the most effective things in getting Pika's sire to control himself in high energy situations. Of course, I had the ability to easily do that because the public wasn't watching me at my place of employment.

Perhaps you can give her other things to focus on for the time being, and when you feel she's ready, set something up with friends away from the public eye to teach her that she must obey you and knock this crap off. Every time she kicks herself into a frenzy over the skiers, she's self-rewarding, so I'm not sure all this exposure is a good thing if you can't do anything about it. Also, I think once she understands that search games and tug rewards are what the mountain is all about, she might focus less on the skiers.

That being said, it was relatively easy to get Pika's sire to not focus on fast-moving things in the environment that triggered his prey drive (deer, squirrels, our cat, cars, child, etc.). Controlling himself around the decoy...not so much.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

PS , I also think Pika is a fantastic dog !!!!!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> To me this behaviour it's still not a reason to crush an 11 mos old pup with a steam roller of electricity and pronging or choking it out.


If this dog is anything like her sire, she'll need a steam roller.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Every time she kicks herself into a frenzy over the skiers, she's self-rewarding, so I'm not sure all this exposure is a good thing if you can't do anything about it. Also, I think once she understands that search games and tug rewards are what the mountain is all about, she might focus less on the skiers.


I like this thought a lot. It's taken me and my herding instructor about 8 months to "get it," but same thing with my dog. Yesterday I think he finally saw that if he thinks of herding as a mind game and not just a "let's go hysterical with drive and bite the sheep in frustration," he really can bring them to me without going off the deep end in drive and wanting to bite. We had a nice little break through moment yesterday where two sheep split from the group and ran to a side pen. I told him to go get them with an assortment of commands and he brought back to me no problem, which he's never been able to do before (or that we've allowed him to do since we haven't trusted him fully off the line). I could almost hear an audible "Okay, okay, I got this, no need to micromanage, mom..." thought bubble coming from him. :-D Trust your dog, Maren. ;-) 

With Pika, I think some of it will have to come with maturity, but yeah, I wouldn't assume she's going to be desensitized to the skiers going by. My dog never was desensitized to sheep, despite my best efforts. :-k I'd still suggest giving her a cue that says "sorry, we gotta take a time out because you need to control yourself" and walk a short distance away (difficult on a chairlift, I know...). That worked the best for us as corrections did not. She's got to figure out for herself how to cap her own drive and figure out what behaviors allow her to come back to work.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I think Kerry's suggestion is the best for a dog at this age.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> If this dog is anything like her sire, she'll need a steam roller.


I don't know Konnie .. How has it worked out in the long run?? Probably not well I bet .. 

I've tried that approach with the dam who you know pretty well and it didn't change nuttin .. just saying. All we do when we *over* correct a dog like this for typical Malinois behaviour (which imo this is) is possibly running into a problem of creating another K9 like your old dog 'Smack' YMMV .. 



Konnie Hein said:


> Every time she kicks herself into a frenzy over the skiers, *she's self-rewarding*, so I'm not sure all this exposure is a good thing if you can't do anything about it. Also, I think once she understands that search games and tug rewards are what the mountain is all about, she might focus less on the skiers.


I think you are on to something here but to me she isn't as much as self rewarding as she is self frustrating herself as she is not allowed to go under any circumstances. So how could that be a reward? Again it is all about finding what interrups the behaviour whether it be a fair correction, tug or search games or even food reward. 

We still have the big unknown about what she wants to do with the skiers. Does she want to bite them, chase them, herd them or play with them. We don't know. We all just assume she is going to tear down the mountain after a skier with a puffy coat and do a perfect KNPV tricep takedown and rip the skiers throat out! LOL! 



Tammy St. Louis said:


> E- collar DOES NOT HAVE TO BE HIGH, to be effective, I also wouldnt do a bark collar , they are HIGH , i wouldnt start there, I introduced Pika to E- collar when she was here, and kept biting at their other dog, we used it as a INTERUPTER< not a correction, NOT HIGH, she took it VERY WELL < no bad reaction at all , thats why i suggested to TRY it


I think that this could be (a) solution Tammy but I'd approach it from a different angle. I wouldn't correct for the PITA behaviour I'd tap her for breaking the down or break of eye contact on the lift. To me as Maren was saying micro managing a PITA behaviour could create issues in other areas, i.e. like Konnie's old dog Smack, you really have to pick your battles. Like I was saying I'm not sure that this is a battle I'd want to fight at this stage of the game with this pup. 

Just keep interrupting the behaviour when it happens, remove the visual stimulus on the lift by blindfolding her etc. As the dog matures she will figure it out and the behaviour will diminish. Why create a mountain out of a ant hill? This dog has a lot to offer, better to keep it that way.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mine [bouv] amped with correction. Putting her in obedience mode before she loaded or got to the explosion stage was best. Later, marker/release/reward got me the most mileage with it. With maturity, I had more ability to be in her head when she is stimulated if that makes any sense. Maturity started about Age 3, mecca--Age 5. I think the whining is like Khira shaking before a trial run. She was in a down but loading all the same. She ran okay but barked at me [frustration] just about the entire run. Thinking about this thread, this season, I'm going to try working her in marker obedience before her run to see if that helps and maybe start working this into my training sessions.

Terrasita


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I don't know Konnie .. How has it worked out in the long run?? Probably not well I bet ..


Actually, it has worked out quite well. We went from a dog who was completely over the top just showing up at the field, to a dog who is now controlled. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vifh3NfJq9I



> I've tried that approach with the dam who you know pretty well and it didn't change nuttin .. just saying. All we do when we *over* correct a dog like this for typical Malinois behaviour (which imo this is) is possibly running into a problem of creating another K9 like your old dog 'Smack' YMMV ..


Smack's issues had nothing to do with being over the top or his prey drive being triggered by fast-moving objects. He was insecure around people to the point that he attacked them. You're comparing apples to oranges here. Not the same situation or motivation.



> I think you are on to something here but to me she isn't as much as self rewarding as she is self frustrating herself as she is not allowed to go under any circumstances. So how could that be a reward?


An adrenaline rush created by the frustration is self-rewarding. Kind of like my old dog Riot who spun and barked in his crate while we drove down the road. He never caught those telephone poles or cars that whipped by, but the behavior went from whining to requiring a "steamroller" to fix it in a very short time. The extreme fixation built and built while I dabbled around with "kinder, gentler ways." 



> Again it is all about finding what interrups the behaviour whether it be a fair correction, tug or search games or even food reward.


Agreed.



> I think that this could be (a) solution Tammy but I'd approach it from a different angle. I wouldn't correct for the PITA behaviour I'd tap her for breaking the down or break of eye contact on the lift. To me as Maren was saying micro managing a PITA behaviour could create issues in other areas, i.e. like Konnie's old dog Smack, you really have to pick your battles. Like I was saying I'm not sure that this is a battle I'd want to fight at this stage of the game with this pup.


Again, Geoff, Smack's behavior was completely different. You can't make the comparison. 

Yes, she should be correcting the dog for breaking eye contact or whatever. However, a slight tap on the shoulder might not do it. If not, then she's going to have to resort to something that gets Pika's attention and puts an end to the behavior before it gets worse. The power of the correction must exceed the power of the cause.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Hope I read the problem correctly. 

If it’s a “threshold” problem then I’d first try modifying her threshold to the specific situation she needs more restraint in. This is a long process but may be worthwhile trying.

You will need a patient friend for this. 
1.	Have friend ski downhill until dog starts to get interested in the skier.
2.	Signal friend (small flag) to stop and remain immobile for a while.
3.	When dog loses interest in the skier; send the skier on his way again.
4.	As soon as dog regains interest have skier stop and repeat #3.

Eventually, on further repeats of this, the skier will be able to go further downhill before dog shows interest. Have skier work further out and as dog improves the skier can pass closer by. Once it is successfully done with one skier you can add skiers to the number of skier used.

This de-sensitizing technique is long, requires patience and good friends.

Good luck.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Do you guys really think there is reward when a dog loads and explodes/frustration behavior when he doesn't get what he really wants--decoy, prey satisfaction, etc?

Terrasita


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Actually, it has worked out quite well. We went from a dog who was completely over the top just showing up at the field, to a dog who is now controlled.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vifh3NfJq9I


Well that is all fine and dandy for *this* specific instance *"controlled"*. Any beatdown of Pika's sire and dam is a temporary thing, try as you might wash a leopard with soap you are not going to get rid of the spots. There is not a fast fix you can mask it or hide it but it is always bubbling under the surface like a coal fire. The only thing you can do is keep working with it and at one point the maturity catches up to the correction and the dog either figures it isn't worth it or the dog gets retired as the handler gives up. 


Konnie Hein said:


> Smack's issues had nothing to do with being over the top or his prey drive being triggered by fast-moving objects. He was insecure around people to the point that he attacked them. You're comparing apples to oranges here. Not the same situation or motivation.
> 
> Yes, she should be correcting the dog for breaking eye contact or whatever. However, a slight tap on the shoulder might not do it. If not, then she's going to have to resort to something that gets Pika's attention and puts an end to the behavior before it gets worse. The power of the correction must exceed the power of the cause.


It may not be the same as K9 Smack's situation but the method of correction would be the same, how could Jenn be sure that the end result is not the same? I remember specifically you saying to me that many of Smack's issues were caused before you rescued him, by a "pet" trainer squashing him like a bug for typical Malinois behaviour. To me a young in the head Malinois lighting up in prey on fast movers is a typical Malinois behaviour to me. 

Again the punishment has to fit the crime do you really think that Pika needs a Lvl 10 correction for this, like what you had to get Juice to be under control in Michigan? I really don't think the crime warrants that myself. 



Konnie Hein said:


> An adrenaline rush created by the frustration is self-rewarding. Kind of like my old dog Riot who spun and barked in his crate while we drove down the road. He never caught those telephone poles or cars that whipped by, but the behavior went from whining to requiring a "steamroller" to fix it in a very short time. The extreme fixation built and built while I dabbled around with "kinder, gentler ways."


I understand where you are coming from to a point. I know any Malinois can get OCD over anything in a short time that's for sure. Question though, did you ever throw a blanket over his crate so he didn't have a view of those amazing telephone poles and speeding cars? 

I have a friend here in my local training group who was a very busy 'pet' trainer Lee H. She has told me this story a few times, it goes like this. 

She would always get people that would come into class with the same old story .. 
_"Fido got into the garbage 5 times last week I don't know what to do" 
_
Lee would say .. 
_"The dog .. get rid of it .." 
_
The student would be in shock not knowing what to say and Lee would chuckle and say ..
_"I mean move the garbage to under the sink, closet or get a animal proof can. Failing that leave the dog in the crate when you can 't supervise it." 

_Pretty simple solution LOL .. Well maybe not in Pika's situation but am trying to think outside the box. 

Possibly some of Pika's issue is manifested by how she lives off the mountain. I know she goes on all sorts of long off leash walks and romps on the logging roads and bush around Jenn's house. She doesn't really have the long arm of the law from stopping her from running off the side of the road scaring up cougars while eating elk and rabbit poop or just being generally a dog. So why does she have to behave on the mountain? She can run through and explore the bush with Farley any where else, why not on the mountain? Trying to think outside the box again ..


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I have seen Pika 2 times now. I have seen how Jennifer handles her. It is a pretty good job. Geoff I think you are on the right track. She is a puppy (Pika is doing well so its easy to forget she isn't mature yet.). You cant just go around pushing a button and call it dog training. This is the most rubbish idea. Who would steam role a puppy for getting excited. Pronging,choking, electrocuting her wont do anything to solve the problem. It may just amplify it(I think).
She is a PUPPY. She is EXCITED, not an OB problem. The thing to do is calm her down. Grab her by the scruff of her neck. Tell her to quit(Calmly). Then ignore it till she gets a bit crazy again. Then do it over. 
Age should help the problem. Most of the stuff stated here isn't going to do anything but maybe cause more grief down the road.

If your brave or crazy enough Jennifer, cut your dog loose and see what she does to a skier. It would give you a bit more insight into what she wants. I think its just fast moving stuff getting her excited. Keep her calm. The blindfold is a cool Idea.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Do you guys really think there is reward when a dog loads and explodes/frustration behavior when he doesn't get what he really wants--decoy, prey satisfaction, etc?


I can't see it myself .. maybe it is, I am no dog whisperer. :wink: I don't think any one of us can 100% read what is going on in a dog's head or why they do what they do. It's more of a action from the dog then a reaction from the trainer than anything else. Which is why I am reluctant to agree that Jenn's dog needs the hand of god in this instance.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Well that is all fine and dandy for *this* specific instance *"controlled"*. Any beatdown of Pika's sire and dam is a temporary thing, try as you might wash a leopard with soap you are not going to get rid of the spots. There is not a fast fix you can mask it or hide it but it is always bubbling under the surface like a coal fire. The only thing you can do is keep working with it and at one point the maturity catches up to the correction and the dog either figures it isn't worth it or the dog gets retired as the handler gives up.


Geoff - it worked for us, and continues to work. 



> It may not be the same as K9 Smack's situation but the method of correction would be the same, how could Jenn be sure that the end result is not the same? I remember specifically you saying to me that many of Smack's issues were caused before you rescued him, by a "pet" trainer squashing him like a bug for typical Malinois behaviour. To me a young in the head Malinois lighting up in prey on fast movers is a typical Malinois behaviour to me.


Completely different situation. Completely.



> Again the punishment has to fit the crime do you really think that Pika needs a Lvl 10 correction for this, like what you had to get Juice to be under control in Michigan? I really don't think the crime warrants that myself.


If you re-read my post, I say "the power of correction must exceed the power of the cause." That's all. If a level 2 or 3 correction fixes it, then so be it. Juice needed level 10, so that's what we did.



> I understand where you are coming from to a point. I know any Malinois can get OCD over anything in a short time that's for sure. Question though, did you ever throw a blanket over his crate so he didn't have a view of those amazing telephone poles and speeding cars?


Yes. It didn't work. And neither did light corrections, giving him something else to do (chewing on a super-awesome bone, for example) or trying to mark and reward moments of non-reactivity.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> The thing to do is calm her down. Grab her by the scruff of her neck. Tell her to quit(Calmly). Then ignore it till she gets a bit crazy again. Then do it over.


This is exactly what I'm talking about.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> The blindfold is a cool Idea.


Unless she has already associated the visual with the sound (swish of the moving skis). Then you'll need ear plugs too. :grin:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I can't see it myself .. maybe it is, I am no dog whisperer. :wink: I don't think any one of us can 100% read what is going on in a dog's head or why they do what they do. It's more of a action from the dog then a reaction from the trainer than anything else. Which is why I am reluctant to agree that Jenn's dog needs the hand of god in this instance.


The behavior is repeating and is increasing in intensity. Jenn is not rewarding it, and neither is anybody else. So, IMO the behavior/state-of-mind/reaction/situation is self-rewarding. Why else would the behavior continue and continue to increase?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Unless she has already associated the visual with the sound (swish of the moving skis). Then you'll need ear plugs too. :grin:


Or Mutt Muffs!!! LOL!! :lol: 
http://www.safeandsoundpets.com/index.html



Konnie Hein said:


> If you re-read my post, I say "the power of correction must exceed the power of the cause." That's all. If a level 2 or 3 correction fixes it, then so be it. Juice needed level 10, so that's what we did.


Ok I misunderstood .. Maybe then Tamm's idea of a low stim on the e-collar will be enough. 

Still it isn't black and white in Pika's head why she has to act any different on the mountain though vs the romps in the bush. 

There is a few things that Jenn should think about again to me it's the cause of the issue that needs rectification not the end result at the end of the page. If Jenn can understand the 'why' it happens in the first place then the rest should be easy.

Such as why she is ok or more under control at the bottom of the hill. Why she starts to light up after being on the lift and after the lift dismount she continues to escalate. What is different?


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Konnie Hein said:


> Unless she has already associated the visual with the sound (swish of the moving skis). Then you'll need ear plugs too. :grin:


Blindfolding any animal is only going to strengthen another sensory, but in predatory animals such as dogs taking away vision is huge. In fact, it may actually cause more anxiety and create a whole new problem for this pup to deal with. Be careful and mindful of her age. 
Remember, that She has many more months and years to develop good skills, so try not to be too hasty in squelching her initiative. Just sayin....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> The behavior is repeating and is increasing in intensity. Jenn is not rewarding it, and neither is anybody else. So, IMO the behavior/state-of-mind/reaction/situation is self-rewarding. Why else would the behavior continue and continue to increase?


 
I don't think you have to reward a behavior for it to occur. Its the intrinsic drive that is the cause--i.e. prey trigger. The frustration comes with not being able to satisfy it. Teach an alternative behavior for going up the lift. She can't load if she isn't watching them. Teach her to leave it off a fixation before it escalates to explode/frustration. At the bottom of the hill, she is on the handler. On the ride up, passive, not occupied and able to fixate/stare, load, etc.

Terrasita


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Does Pika KNOW that the mountain is for WORK and NOT play?? I know that the more rewards Judge gets in the presence of a big stimuli, in his case, the sleeve, suit, decoy etc., the more keyed on the stimuli he is. What I've done is ask him to heel, we heel away from the stimuli and to a place where he can not see it, I use an e-collar and correct him if needed. After we are away from it, I reward him if his focus is on me. This works on the Schutzhund field because there isn't public involved. 

When he whines and carries on being an idjit in public, even as a puppy, I taught him a "quiet" command, if he ignores it, he gets corrected. 

Just my opinion.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Wow. While I was at work this thread exploded! Thanks everyone for the ideas and insights. I have gleaned some good info.

UPDATE:
So I decided yesterday talking on the phone with Tammy..."why is it that I concentrate on breaking down behaviors to teach everything else, but didn't here"?

So while learning to ride the lifts and ski with me, I have decided for now to remove the stimulus of the rushing skiers. This is more difficult for me as there are smaller windows I can use the lifts without skiers on the mountain, but I am not in a hurry really.

So....today I took her up a lift before public with another ski patroller on the chair with us. No one skiing below, the odd snowmobile or snowcat for a little something. No chance for her to rehearse the behavior I don't want, a chance for her to learn that riding the chair is a time to relax not look for skiers. Only some very slight whinning near the top.

Then...I skied down a run with her in the methods I have been teaching her (vid in first post). This is exciting for her in itself and adding to the "high in the head" issue I beleive. Stopped a couple of times on the way. Acted like the whole thing was no big deal. No weasle freak outs. No practicing the unwanted behavior.

Then... I took her out mid day when the ski hill was very busy, walked her around the chailift, skiers going by and so on. Chatted with some people. NBD (no big deal). Then we did some obedience around the skiers, all very good. I will have the opportunity to take her to various places on the mountain without having to ski (I will get a snowmo ride) to do the same thing.

So what I am trying to do right now is separate all this stuff out. As Gerald suggested, the next step, once she thinks skiing out with me on the mountain is no longer anything new and exciting will be to add in some ski patrollers...and so on.

I have the time to progress a little more slowly, so I will. I am wary about letting her practice stuff I don't want right now. If after she has had more time to get used to the environment and different experiences...then she wants to get all weasle faced on me, I will move towards some of the corrective measures discussed here, there have been some gooders.

Maybe I just moved a little fast for her malinois brain. I will try to work within her thresholds for a little longer.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> The thing to do is calm her down. Grab her by the scruff of her neck. Tell her to quit(Calmly). Then ignore it till she gets a bit crazy again. Then do it over.


After talking to you last and watching you act out your recommendation, I did try it.

In the particular state of mind I am discussing, grabing her by the scruff, even with no emotion, will cause a gator roll type response from her. My two choices...let her gator it out until she quits..and be unimpressed by it, let her go only when she submits. OR...escalate my response to the gator thing to impress upon her that that is not acceptable.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

not to sure what to say now.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I don't know Konnie .. How has it worked out in the long run?? Probably not well I bet ..
> 
> I've tried that approach with the dam who you know pretty well and it didn't change nuttin .. just saying. All we do when we *over* correct a dog like this for typical Malinois behaviour (which imo this is) is possibly running into a problem of creating another K9 like your old dog 'Smack' YMMV ..
> 
> ...


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> After talking to you last and watching you act out your recommendation, I did try it.
> 
> In the particular state of mind I am discussing, grabing her by the scruff, even with no emotion, will cause a gator roll type response from her. My two choices...let her gator it out until she quits..and be unimpressed by it, let her go only when she submits. OR...escalate my response to the gator thing to impress upon her that that is not acceptable.


Jennifer, believe me when I tell you this. Your description of her behavior is just like her father. Do yourself a favor and skip this whole scruff grabbing stuff. Have her on a leash and collar, apply the needed tension upwards until the behavior stops. Soon you can acompany that with an ecollar so you can get the hands off results that I'm sure you're looking for. You're just going to annoy her and possibly get bit in the process while getting hands on with her like that. Don't waste your time.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Actually Geoff, it has made a huge difference in Juice's behavior. I know because I'm the one that trains him during his highest state of drive. Now Juice is very controlable comapared to what he used to be. Juice and Sasha are very diferent dogs and if I trained Saha the same way I train Juice, she would never work again because they are totally different dogs. I handled Sasha for you during open field at my trial last year and she was eating out of the palm of my hand and she didn't know me from a hole in the wall. If that were Juice, it would of been a totally different story. 
That being said, the puppy at hand, according to behaviors described, is a LOT like her sire and not souch her mother so therefore she needs to be trained in a different manner than her mother. Konnie is very right. I would not be taking her to places where she can show these behaviors and you CANT correct them. You can't beat around the bush with a dog like this. She is more than capable of doing the job but these behaviors need to be crushed right away. I don't care that she's only 11 months. All this foo foo waiting her out and focus work will not work on a dog like this. She needs to know that behaviors like this will result in consequences. That's why you need to work on the problem in other areas other than where you work. If she's not recieving consequences then you are basically rewarding the behavior. If you wait until she's older, your in trouble. 
Now the consequence needed for a dog like this, just do what Konnie said lol. She deals with the exact same problems all the time and feels your pain but has had great success with this. 
Oh and Geoff, Smack and Juice are NOTHING alike and weren't even trained the same way. Smack had his own seperate problems of insecurities so to make a comparison like that is ignorant.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> After talking to you last and watching you act out your recommendation, I did try it.
> 
> In the particular state of mind I am discussing, grabing her by the scruff, even with no emotion, will cause a gator roll type response from her. My two choices...let her gator it out until she quits..and be unimpressed by it, let her go only when she submits. OR...escalate my response to the gator thing to impress upon her that that is not acceptable.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Just my .02...probably an idiot, but here goes...

I don't know jack about the lines, or what she is doing in training...

Just trying to look at it from what I think a dogs perspective "might" be...

A person on a ski slope whizzing by can "trigger" something I am sure...in high drive dogs...on ground level....

It has been a long time since I was on a ski lift. Not sure how high the ones the OP is using....

but...

I would think it is a possiblility that the dog might not even being viewing the people on the slopes as people...

How big does a person down there look? the size of a tennis ball?, a squirrel? a rabbit?, whizzing down and underneath and out of sight?

Even a dog that is not excited about people might get real fukking excited if he woke up in Liliput....where everyone looked to be 6 inches tall or a foot tall, or whatever they look like from up there...

Just something to think about...

The dog has WORK to do..

It is 11 months old for christ's sakes..not a little puppy, I haven't owned a dog in the last 12 yrs or so that I would think of grabbing it by the scruff at that age..except one, a really flaky mali that was way too sensitive..and didn't have her long...

Look at it this way....might help...

What do you guys do if your high drive dog gets geeked and wants to chase every squirrel or bird it sees, because I am betting that is about what people skiing down a slope, look like to a dog high up on a chairlift, a squirrel. 

That is the context I think this situation should be looked at....just my opinion...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I really appreciate the insights from the owners of the dam and sire as well as trainers who have worked them.

From talking to Konnie I do think that she has some Juice like qualities for sure. I am not sure that she is quite as serious as her dad and I have also had the benefit of raising her since she was a pup and I think that works in my favor.

I may have given the wrong impression when I say "gator". Forgive me if some think I meant she was going to come up at my face. I more meant that she is going to thrash around a lot making angry noises, and generally flipping out. She would likely put her mouth on part of me that she could get, but I beleive she is more "weasle" than "gator" as far as how far she would be willing to take things.

Either way, point taken about her rehearsing this type of behavior and that there needs to be consequences for it. I have talked to Konnie about what has worked for her.

I still plan to work within her thresholds and increase them bit by bit if I can, but will have a plan for if that doesn't help.

PS..there is plenty o' sasha traits in her too.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> What do you guys do if your high drive dog gets geeked and wants to chase every squirrel or bird it sees, because I am betting that is about what people skiing down a slope, look like to a dog high up on a chairlift, a squirrel.
> 
> That is the context I think this situation should be looked at....just my opinion...


I'd have the dog do some other behavior and use reward if they complied or a prong collar if they didn't comply, maybe e-collar. That being said, if she's already crossed that line where no matter how hard you corrected them, they either become completely uncooperative (been there, done that with sheep) or start heading down the road towards handler aggression, IMO you need to rethink your strategy. My impression of Jennifer's original post hinted more towards the dog was loading to the point where even a strong correction may not help. In a similar experience with my dog, really the only thing that worked was teaching the dog that you act a fool, you don't get to play. Chill the eff out, you get to play. Very simple, but it takes a ridiculous amount of patience (something I'm not very good at). You teach the dog to control his/her own drives with less conflict and less potential for handler aggression. The drives can still be there, of course, just not going over the edge into la la land.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'd have the dog do some other behavior and use reward if they complied or a prong collar if they didn't comply, maybe e-collar. That being said, if she's already crossed that line where no matter how hard you corrected them, they either become completely uncooperative (been there, done that with sheep) or start heading down the road towards handler aggression, IMO you need to rethink your strategy. My impression of Jennifer's original post hinted more towards the dog was loading to the point where even a strong correction may not help. In a similar experience with my dog, really the only thing that worked was teaching the dog that you act a fool, you don't get to play. Chill the eff out, you get to play. Very simple, but it takes a ridiculous amount of patience (something I'm not very good at). You teach the dog to control his/her own drives with less conflict and less potential for handler aggression. The drives can still be there, of course, just not going over the edge into la la land.


I doubt that line has been crossed, anyhow, not meaning to suggest a solution, just another way to look at it....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> For the record...this is what I have tried:
> 
> -just taking my skis off at the side of a slope, having her down and watch, hoping she would become desensitized. Only did it for ten min, she was building and building...she would occationally break, enforced command with prong..she can whine, bark, snarl in a down I found out.
> 
> ...





> I may have given the wrong impression when I say "gator". Forgive me if some think I meant she was going to come up at my face. I more meant that she is going to thrash around a lot making angry noises, and *generally flipping out.* She would likely put her mouth on part of me that she could get, but I beleive she is more "weasle" than "gator" as far as how far she would be willing to take things.


Joby, I was going by Jennifer reporting that she doesn't knock it off when being corrected, is escalating and then getting directly or indirectly confrontational with Jennifer or doing the Maligator roll and flipping out suggests it's not quite as easy as a just a quick correction and may be soon approaching that line. Like there's a difference between "oh boy, a squirrel, I really want it! But I guess I'll behave..." and true "HO-LEE SHEEAT! OMG, OMG, OMG!!!" flipping out, which I've had to deal with. Not sure if she's *quite* at that level yet, but yeah. That was my interpretation of it anyways. :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Joby, I was going by Jennifer reporting that she doesn't knock it off when being corrected, is escalating and then getting directly or indirectly confrontational with Jennifer or doing the Maligator roll and flipping out suggests it's not quite as easy as a just a quick correction and may be soon approaching that line. Like there's a difference between "oh boy, a squirrel, I really want it! But I guess I'll behave..." and true "HO-LEE SHEEAT! OMG, OMG, OMG!!!" flipping out, which I've had to deal with. Not sure if she's *quite* at that level yet, but yeah. That was my interpretation of it anyways. :wink:


good for you..LOL...
again just putting the perception thing out there, not offering advice...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jason Davis said:


> Actually Geoff, it has made a huge difference in Juice's behavior. I know because I'm the one that trains him during his highest state of drive. Now Juice is very controlable comapared to what he used to be.


Well glad it has worked out for you, somehow I suspect it is lot more than a couple of coming to god meetings that has made Juice turn over a new leaf such as the dog maturing and the quality of your whole overall program and the consistency of it, which makes it clearer for him. 



Jason Davis said:


> Juice and Sasha are very diferent dogs and if I trained Saha the same way I train Juice, she would never work again because they are totally different dogs. I handled Sasha for you during open field at my trial last year and she was eating out of the palm of my hand and she didn't know me from a hole in the wall. If that were Juice, it would of been a totally different story.
> That being said, the puppy at hand, according to behaviors described, is a LOT like her sire and not souch her mother so therefore she needs to be trained in a different manner than her mother.


Yes they are both totally different dogs I agree. I know everyone likes to think that all the good traits of these pups only come from the sire but I do have some news for you, the genetics are shared 50/50 as well as the good and bad. If you can judge all her pups because you handled her once and worked her a couple times in trial and training what exactly she is like you are way better than I think you are. 

You are not taking into account the dam's own drive impulsiveness with her own loading up issues around decoys, sheep etc which to me is very much a mirror image of the Jenn's dog behaviour which she decribes. (how I read it anyways) Which I don't think you've seen ever out of my dog as I've learn't to deal with it. I have my own set of rituals pre training/trial to keep that flame from burning to hot. I can beat it down with corrections I can control it with a bark collar in the crate .. but sorry it always there just under the surface it's part of my dogs make up and just something I've accepted that I have to keep a finger on the pulse of it, to control it. 

Yes the dam is a lot softer dog than the sire in many ways. But in drive loading thresholds and manipulating situations to self satisfy, the behaviours between the 2 are a lot alike. 



Jason Davis said:


> Konnie is very right. *I would not be taking her to places where she can show these behaviors and you CANT correct them.* You can't beat around the bush with a dog like this. She is more than capable of doing the job but these behaviors need to be crushed right away. I don't care that she's only 11 months. All this foo foo waiting her out and focus work will not work on a dog like this. She needs to know that behaviors like this will *result in consequences.* *That's why you need to work on the problem in other areas other than where you work. If she's not recieving consequences then you are basically rewarding the behavior.* If you wait until she's older, your in trouble. Now the consequence needed for a dog like this, just do what Konnie said lol. She deals with the exact same problems all the time and feels your pain but has had great success with this.


I think you are on to something here Jason and I think this is good advice. Which is what I was trying to say earlier with my friends story about the pet dog and the garbage "get rid of the garbage not the dog" 

I really didn't want to give Jenn specific advice. Jenn is a smart person and a talented handler in her own right she knows her dog, she needs to take everyone's suggestions and come up with her own plan that is suitable for her dog, not for the sire or the dam. 

My only thing again is/was trying to understand why she is loading up in the first place. But then in retrospect it doesn't really matter, deal with the issue at hand don't worry about the 'why' just deal with it. Now Jenn needs to come up with her plan 'off' the hill or somewhere else on a not busy part of it to set up a scenario up with another SAR tech skier or group, and get 'er done. 



Jason Davis said:


> Oh and Geoff, Smack and Juice are NOTHING alike and weren't even trained the same way. Smack had his own seperate problems of insecurities so to make a comparison like that is ignorant.


If you read what I was saying and not jumping to conclusions Jason, you'd see that I never said anything close to that in any of my postings. I know they are totally different dogs and had totally different training back grounds. My postings were and *still* a word of caution to Jenn of what can happen when you squash a Malinois for typical Malinois behaviour and using Smack as an example, NOT comparing Smack to Juice. Hope that clarifies. 

Face it all of us have not seen her dog, all we have is a few snippets of video and our own understanding and opinion of what Jenn was trying to convey in her OP. Which is the danger of posting these type of questions on a general public forum, from the ranges of responses from 'all' sorts of experienced people (some less than me and some more than yourself) from all over the world Jenn has lots to mull over before coming up with a plan.  

1. Teach
2. Correct
3. Proof

Let's all hope it is as easy as that!

All the best for the new year Jason hope to see you soon!


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Hey Geoff. In no way, shape or form was I cutting down Sasha. I like Sasha very much, which I have expressed to you in the past. Ever since that little rocket took my fat ass for a ride in Michigan, I had respect for her. I also know that qualities good or bad, aren't just from the sire or dam. I was just stating that this particular puppy from Jennifers description has more of a Juice influence and I've worked another puppy out of this litter that has more of a Sasha influence. Not saying that once influence is better than the other, just saying they can't be trained the same way. Yes you're right, it didn't take just a couple come to Jesus talks with Juice, nor did I say that ut only took a couple. I'm saying that when he gets to that state of mind, he forcese to take it there. Now after time, he's chosen not to go there because he now understands the consequence to that behavior. I was simply saying to Jennifer that with the behaviors described, she will most likely have to be handled that way. Probably not on the same level as Juice, but similar method and training. Yes it has to be consistant for it to work. It's not an overnight fix either. Also dogs are always in a constant state of training. It never ends but they soon realize what behaviors are acceptable and which ones aren't. 
As far as Smack is concerned, we will have to agree to disagree lol. I don't believe his insecurities and unpredictability were caused by how he was trained. Could they of made it worse, maybe but I don't know what his training was like. That was a genetic behavior. Jennifers puppy sounds like a very nice, confident dog so there would be no reason for her to run into those types of problems IMO. 
Youre right though. It all comes down to this. Train the behaviors required and reward and correct when needed. I was just saying that this type of dog sounds like she needs more than a slap on the wrist and I just wanted to share the tecniques that worked well on her father. 
I wish you the best as well Geoff and hope to see you in May in Montreal!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm curious at what age do you guys think consequences were effective for getting control of the behavior. I would have said on my dog as a young dog consequences weren't effective for ending impulse behavior--just more stress. With her mature and working alternative marker trained behaviors, I was more in her head and consequences were effective along with teaching an alternative behavior.

Terrasita


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jason Davis said:


> I wish you the best as well Geoff and hope to see you in May in Montreal!


Thanks I can't wait for May! Hopefully by that time I'll be able to go run with all you guys, damn well I know I can drink with you and keep up! We are going to have a riot working with Herve.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I have seen this dog, Sasha and NOT Juice. So far I think she is a spitting image of Sasha. I dont know Juice or Sasha too much. From the 2 descriptions and Videos and all the internet shit I see, Pika is more like Sasha.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm curious at what age do you guys think consequences were effective for getting control of the behavior. I would have said on my dog as a young dog consequences weren't effective for ending impulse behavior--just more stress. With her mature and working alternative marker trained behaviors, I was more in her head and consequences were effective along with teaching an alternative behavior.


Hi Terrasita,

I think you haven't had an answer to this question as really there is no concrete answer! Ha ha!  

Really it is all about the dog , the breed and the dog's own maturity in it's head. Which way you want to go is going to be an individual decision based on what impulse behaviours you want to change, the dog itself and your own training experiences and how far you want to take it. There really isn't a magic specific age IMO.


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## Kim Gilmore (Feb 18, 2008)

Jen-

This is completely grasping at straws, but it works in some cases with high drive/prey-focused Belgians in herding context, so might be able to apply some reverse psychology and apply it to skiers :-o.

I went and helped teach a SAR seminar in Austria/Germany a few years back and took Brenner with me. He too is a high prey/visually stimulated Belgian. After the seminar, I stayed in Germany on a sheep farm for a few days before flying back to the US. Stock owner (very dog savvy) offered to get Bren started on stock so took us into one of the pastures that had a few sheep that had yet to be sheared. She took one look at Brenner escalating when he visualized the small herd and immediately pulled us into the other pasture where he was let loose with 60+ head. Reasoning? Smaller herds of sheep tend to panic and scatter, larger herds will pack together (strength in numbers concept) thus decreasing the dogs ability to split and chase. He calmed down quickly when he realized he wasn't going to be able to single them, stopped with the yodeling and starting moving them with reasonable calmness.

Another herding instructor that I know puts dog and as many sheep as she can pack into a small round pen when she has out of control visually overstimulated dogs. The idea is to desensitize the dog by packing him in the stimulus. Pen is packed so tight that the dog has to be calm and maintain a brain cell or will get run over.

So, idea (and only an idea), can you gather as many skiers as you can to help you out, place yourself in the middle of the bunch, pack tight and get Pika to place while skiing in a controlled fashion? Doesn't need to be a long ski or a fast ski, just get her to the point that we either learn to control the drive by immersing her in the stim. JUST WATCH THEM EDGES or you won't have to worry about her on the hill this season at all!

Another idea is to re-focus her when she starts escalating. A "watch me" command that breaks her laser vision on her target. When you see her lock on, give her the watch me where she breaks focus and looks at you, work on longer time intervals and reward with food or toy (this can work on the edge of the runs or on the chair). One of my rescues who is a shy/sharp, very visually stimulated girl learned a place command while I was rehabbing her so when I started seeing her escalate, would give her the command and she gets herself between my legs. Works like a charm for bringing her back down!

Anyway, just tossing out a couple thoughts for you. My guys tend to scream when they know they are heading out to work but relatively quiet until we get there. At that point it's a Belgian screaming frenzy as they are competitive for the chance to work. Fortunately, they are focusing on the hunt and less on the visual stimulation of skiers at the edges of the training area. Unfortunately they have learned the pitch that doesn't activate the bark collar so have given up on listening to the sound of silence :|

Kim Gilmore


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kim Gilmore said:


> Jen-
> 
> This is completely grasping at straws, but it works in some cases with high drive/prey-focused Belgians in herding context, so might be able to apply some reverse psychology and apply it to skiers :-o.
> 
> ...


From the herding perspective, these are some classic ideas. HOWEVER, as Khira demonstrated, the packed pen idea can backfire. More meant more stimulation. Nor do they get run over. They go underneath to get to noses and they back them. Sometimes flooding/desensitization doesn't work with this type. The amp might get worse.

Terrasita


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

guess since i'm new to this forum i'm looking at it much too simply 
but why not back up and desensitize her to the slopes b4 u proceed any further. i mean the obvious....one on one, empty slopes w/ simple OB / interactive gaming.....progressing to having a few friends positioned and moving up to a full blown assortment of ski wear and other visuals...assuming a muzzle is a non event for her that would take care of the safety issues except for the "scared to death of any animal syndrome", which of course is always a murphy's law waiting to surface anytime anywhere.....the crowded slope is obviously a biggy for her right now so make it a no biggy b4 you add more stress factors you will need to deal with.....i see NO reason any of this should require any corrections of you can handle the dog as well as you seem to be able to at this stage of her development. at least when you know for sure it's "just another place", you can rule out some of the factors that are not absolutely clear right now.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> From the herding perspective, these are some classic ideas. HOWEVER, as Khira demonstrated, the packed pen idea can backfire. More meant more stimulation. Nor do they get run over. They go underneath to get to noses and they back them. Sometimes flooding/desensitization doesn't work with this type. The amp might get worse.
> 
> Terrasita


Yeah, the packed pen idea totally effed with my dog's head. He just wanted to bite them like a shark in a feeding frenzy because it was way WAY too much stimulation in way too small of a space. I'm pretty sure he was the one doing the running over. :roll: Getting him out in the big arena off line with e-collar and muzzle with some very heavy sheep have been much, much better.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, the packed pen idea totally effed with my dog's head. He just wanted to bite them like a shark in a feeding frenzy because it was way WAY too much stimulation in way too small of a space. I'm pretty sure he was the one doing the running over. :roll: Getting him out in the big arena off line with e-collar and muzzle with some very heavy sheep have been much, much better.


 
Khira is a little different. I raised Khira from a puppy on stock and started with really small pen work. The amp load and explode came when she was over a year old. I had never seen this before. Khira doesn't go into a bite frenzy and rarely bites a sheep. That's been a cow thing and quite frankly, the cow deserved it. Once she gets them under control on either side of the coin, she settles. The trouble is she wants control. She won't let it go. I think initially I tried a somewhat packed pen with young lambs--bad choice. I do small pen work where the dog moves around them and there is room for the dog to move, then I turn the dog in and tell him to walk on [apply pressure] and this is with resistant sheep [fight]. It worked well for Khira in terms of turn it [controlled fight] on and turn it off. Even when Khira is in high pitched prey she will gather and balance. Its just from a trial perspective, high prey no matter how right she is position wise will scare them so much there is no way to keep them on line, etc. 

Fawkes need the room to stay outside the bubble. A lot of the Mals at the Mal national were similar. I do so much foundation work on lifts and Khira has rate, that's really not her issue.

T


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So the herding people are giving advice now ? LOL

I think Jen had a thread like three years ago wondering about using a Mal for what she does. 

Hows it going, eh ???? LOL

Wack her face with the leash if she breaks the stay command. Or, you can spend a few years with all this other goofy shit.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

*mod edit* 

Who are you to give advice and laugh at other peoples' (advice)? You are the guy who has a dog who can fail every worlds ring exercise and who looks like a gigantic clown compared to ....................?? try to give advice for what?? to look like a funnyman comedian and laugh at yourself to make a joke? to make others laugh with you who before laughed_ at_ you? advice from a joker? Talking loud doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. Retarded.

There......seeing as it's Sunday, thought I'd take a stab at interpretation, how did I do ? :-D


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maggie I think you did a good job at cleaning it up but I still don’t see his point. I think Jeff might be right regarding the need for a few corrections here maybe add a mean toned cut that crap out command. I thought that putting a dog in a pen full of animals to make it stop crying at skiers is retarted. The idea of herding together a bunch of skiers is really retarted to me as well but what the hell do I know. 
Jen keep us updated on how you deal with this.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I thought about suggested a strap across the muzzle myself...if the dog could handle it without crumbling...but dont know the dog, so didn't


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Poor lamar, no grasp of the english language. I thought they taught english in California.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Poor lamar, no grasp of the english language. I thought they taught english in California.


all I thought when I read was "hooked on phonics"


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

*mod edit*
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Lamar Blackmor*  
_why does michal ellis wear fireman shirts when he's not a ****ing fireman and sweatshirts from columbia and stanford, schools he never went to._




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Poor lamar, no grasp of the english language. I thought they taught english in California.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Hey now, be nice to Lamar. Maybe he suffered a brain injury or something... Lamar, don't drink the bong water! Jeez!

Hukd on fonix werkd 4 mee.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Hey now, be nice to Lamar. Maybe he suffered a brain injury or something... Lamar, don't drink the bong water! Jeez!
> 
> Hukd on fonix werkd 4 mee.


Maybe teh multiple personality is seams possibly dumb and dumber


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Lamar's only point was to mess with Jeff . If ever I had the slightest doubt it was Felatio posting I don't anymore .


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Update...

So I haven't had too much time to work her at the mountain because of work committments, but we have done some.

I mentioned I decided to try to do some chair riding and skiing with her when there is not public on the mountain. There is a small amount of weasle sound on the chair still, but very slight. The skiing part without public around is going really well. She is learning what is required and I think that as we do it more it is becomming slightly less special.

I have still been bringing her around all the people and skiers around busy times and doing ob and such. Going well as per usual.

THere was a couple of days that were very slow up at the mountain last week and I did bring her up a lower chairlift and ski her down with a very small number of people around. Again, a slight amount of weasle noises on the chair, she is definately tracking people with her eyes. I am trying some food stuff on the chair for focus, with mediocre success. Work in progress.

Yesterday I went up on a day off with her. Very busy day, lots of public around. Snowmobiled her to an upper lift and then road the busy chairlift to the top. Snowmobile travel going really well. The busy chairlift with lots of skiers below was a challenge for sure, her eyes darting all over. That said the weasle noises were not so bad.

I did some easy searches with her above the area where people skiing and those went well, she got good and worked up for sure. After all that excitement (she was really "high" in the head) I decided not to push it and kenneled her and waited until the mountain was closed and skied her down with no skiers around and she was great.

So in short, I have been trying to give her a chance to work within her threasholds a for a bit longer, without completely avoiding the issues. I think we are on the right track. Hopefully she is getting desensitized some.

Knowing her, this problem is not gone, she will have to face more distractions as we go, and for sure she will go to la la land once again at some point. I hope that I can lay a foundation of what I expect and want without practicing the la la land stuff first. I will let you know when I get to the correction part, what type of correction was most effective.

I am going to be away for most of the next month, so not sure how much progress I will make for a while. I expect to have lots of time in March and April to make some big headway.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"The busy chairlift with lots of skiers below was a challenge for sure, her eyes darting all over".


She knows she can go down the hill with you so why not with all those other folks?! Just to much temptation but it sounds like it's getting better! :wink:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> So in short, I have been trying to give her a chance to work within her threasholds a for a bit longer, without completely avoiding the issues. I think we are on the right track. Hopefully she is getting desensitized some.
> 
> Knowing her, *this problem is not gone,* she will have to face more distractions as we go, and for sure she will go to la la land once again at some point. I hope that I can lay a foundation of what I expect and want without practicing the la la land stuff first. I will let you know when I get to the correction part, what type of correction was most effective.


Glad to hear that you are making progress, keep up the good work Jennifer! That type of issue may always just lie under the surface. 

With Mom being 4 this July she has a lot less reactivity but again I didn't hammer her over the small stuff details and only tried to control and correct when I was in a position to do so and the stuff I felt was important and ignored the rest. I know you may not have that option like I did to ignore any or even some of the behaviour depending on whatever situation you are in. Like I said keep up the good work!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

You no Jen maybe the dog just really wants to just take a bite. So maybe if you get some good obedience in the dog and then let him take a few bites from a decoy dressed as a skier you might have a great SARs dog. I was thinking if I was buried in an avalanche and about to freeze or suffocate to death I would be glad to be woken up by a dog biting my leg. I mean if that’s what really gets him searching maybe you can work with it? And for the most part everyone has many layers on when skiing so you can just tell them the dog was pulling them to safety and not really biting, Im sorry he broke the skin but at least your alive. I mean it’s a thought


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I like your Idea Chris


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

You guys are awesome...and bad LOL! PM sent.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

PM as funny, but you kinda took the fun out of my idea a bit. I thought I was a bit more original. I will take a few stitches any day if buried in snow.


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