# Crossing over to the Dark Side (trying raw)



## Adam Swilling

OK, OK. I've never been a big proponent of raw. It's not that I don't agree with the results or the fact that the dogs seem healthier or at the very least look better. Now I've got my numbers down to a more managable level, and I've figured out that $$ wise feeding raw will cost me the same as feeding the kibble I've been using. So, this week I've started making the switch. I spent two weeks researching this, to the point I'm almost tired of reading about it. Connie, I honestly think I've read every post you've made on here about feeding raw (search can be a wonderful thing). I've also read everything I could find on Leerburg. I feel pretty good about it but know I still have much to learn. 

I'm using the sample diets I found on Leerburg as a model; they looked pretty sound to me. I've read more about salmon oil and vitamin E than I ever thought I would. I felt pretty proud this morning at the grocery store. I found whole fryers for 79 cents/pound and they had sardines in water on closeout for 54 cents a can; I cleaned them out on sardines, literally-20 cans. I couldn't pass them up for that price. I spent a couple of hours cutting up chickens and putting them in quantities of one meal per dog. 

So far, so good. Good stools, dogs love it. Does this mean I've crossed over to the Dark Side??


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## Jennifer Coulter

Mwaaaahhhhhaaaahhaaa, yes.

Too bad Gerry isn't here to post pictures of his shiny dutchy and Jeff isn't here to tell you you have been conned.


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## Nicole Stark

Congrats. When I fed raw, it was pretty awesome to find deals and when I did, I'd do the same thing and buy it all. After two or so years of traveling back and fourth between properties I eventually abandoned raw feeding. I miss the process a little bit, something about it seemed so well, just right. Now today, when I see those pellets hit the food bowls I have to say it bothers me a bit.


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## Lynn Cheffins

Yes Adam you have crossed to the dark side... you have now entered a life of being looked at strangely at supermarket checkouts. You'll be picking up roadkill next, heheheheh.....:razz:


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## Brian Anderson

Adam good for you. I am convinced and a true believer in raw meat, bone, guts and some goodies added in.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Thought it might be an opportunity to post this picture again:lol: It is a good welcome to the "Dark Side" photo.


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## Brian Anderson

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Thought it might be an opportunity to post this picture again:lol: It is a good welcome to the "Dark Side" photo.


AHHHHHHH :smile:


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## Thomas Jones

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Thought it might be an opportunity to post this picture again:lol: It is a good welcome to the "Dark Side" photo.


wow lol that would freak me out if I was walking down the street and saw that


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## Adam Swilling

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Yes Adam you have crossed to the dark side... you have now entered a life of being looked at strangely at supermarket checkouts. You'll be picking up roadkill next, heheheheh.....:razz:


 LOL, that happened yesterday. The kid at the checkout and the bag boy kept looking at each other like we had 4 arms. 20 cans of sardines, 4 chickens, liver, neckbones. I'm sure they thought we were gonna have some type of hillbilly shindig.


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## Lisa Brazeau

Grocery store? You can feed a helluva lot cheaper through a distributor (as long as you have a freezer). On one of those threads there was a GIANT list of RMB resources. For instance, I bought 480lbs of beef/organ mix for $160 from Triple-A Brand meats. ..


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## Adam Swilling

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Grocery store? You can feed a helluva lot cheaper through a distributor (as long as you have a freezer). On one of those threads there was a GIANT list of RMB resources. For instance, I bought 480lbs of beef/organ mix for $160 from Triple-A Brand meats. ..


 Don't have a big freezer yet. That's the next thing on my list. I didn't go to the grocery store specifically for the dogs, but did find some things while I was there. I'm about to look up that other thread though.


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## James Downey

Welcome to the Club Adam. I was a complete almost anti raw nazi when I first heard about it. till my wife feed a 9 y/o catahoula RAW and I seen a geriatric dog get her life back.


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## Brian Anderson

James Downey said:


> Welcome to the Club Adam. I was a complete almost anti raw nazi when I first heard about it. till my wife feed a 9 y/o catahoula RAW and I seen a geriatric dog get her life back.


James I feel ya.... I talked ugly about raw feeders for a LONG time... a lady in cali convinced me to give it a try a few years back. When I saw dogs coats change color and the lights in their eyes get bright I had a "what a dumb ass I am" moment. I will never go back to the sack...


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## Adam Swilling

I think what has surprised me the most is how their energy levels have changed in such a short time. It's not that they're bouncing off the walls, but their energy seems to be more balanced, I guess you could say. And I have to say, it is sorta fun watching them rip through chicken parts and hearing those RMB's crunch. I do laugh at the Dutchie; she must think she has to kill it. She picks up a piece of chicken and shakes the crap out of it before she eats it.


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## Connie Sutherland

Adam Swilling said:


> I think what has surprised me the most is how their energy levels have changed in such a short time. It's not that they're bouncing off the walls, but their energy seems to be more balanced ....


The glycemic response, glycemic index, glycemic load ...... these are not concepts for humans only. 

White potatoes and refined carbs affect dogs too.



eta
Jim Downey pretty much hit the nail on the head about my lightbulb moment: it's hard to match the huge difference like seeing a senior's life change when he starts eating fresh food.


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## Adam Swilling

Connie, I guess I could do a search but thought I would just ask. How often, if at all, should I fast the dogs on a raw diet. Is this something you recommend or only under certain circumstances?


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## Connie Sutherland

Adam Swilling said:


> Connie, I guess I could do a search but thought I would just ask. How often, if at all, should I fast the dogs on a raw diet. Is this something you recommend or only under certain circumstances?


I don't. I have one who has empty-stomach bile-vomiting (you know that frothy vomitus in small amounts that some dogs bring up when they go for a long overnight period with no food?), so I just don't fast any of them. (He's not the first dog I've had with that bile vomiting thing; it's not uncommon.)

I think you will get a wide range of opinions and practices here, though. I pretty much don't feel strongly one way or the other, except maybe for dogs with hypoglycemia. But others will have other POVs.


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## Brian Anderson

Adam Swilling said:


> Connie, I guess I could do a search but thought I would just ask. How often, if at all, should I fast the dogs on a raw diet. Is this something you recommend or only under certain circumstances?


Adam we fast our dogs one day a week. We have found that there is no such thing as a specific amount. Each dog is different and you have to feed them a while to see what the optimal amount is given the dogs activity level etc.


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## Brian Anderson

Adam Swilling said:


> I think what has surprised me the most is how their energy levels have changed in such a short time. It's not that they're bouncing off the walls, but their energy seems to be more balanced, I guess you could say. And I have to say, it is sorta fun watching them rip through chicken parts and hearing those RMB's crunch. I do laugh at the Dutchie; she must think she has to kill it. She picks up a piece of chicken and shakes the crap out of it before she eats it.


The energy is good clean clear energy. The dogs recovery time shortens as well. I wouldn't expect anything less from the dutchie girl lol


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## Faisal Khan

texas chain saw massacre


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## Adam Swilling

Connie Sutherland said:


> I don't. I have one who has empty-stomach bile-vomiting (you know that frothy vomitus in small amounts that some dogs bring up when they go for a long overnight period with no food?), so I just don't fast any of them. (He's not the first dog I've had with that bile vomiting thing; it's not uncommon.)
> 
> I think you will get a wide range of opinions and practices here, though. I pretty much don't feel strongly one way or the other, except maybe for dogs with hypoglycemia. But others will have other POVs.


 That's exactly why I asked that question. My GSD does that, so I was concerned about fasting him. I'm sure I'll have a million other questions over time. Hopefully I won't start getting on people's nerves with them, LOL.


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## Katie Finlay

Connie Sutherland said:


> eta
> Jim Downey pretty much hit the nail on the head about my lightbulb moment: it's hard to match the huge difference like seeing a senior's life change when he starts eating fresh food.


This is really what did it for me. Seeing the change in my 15 year old dog even in the last months of her life was remarkable. My dogs live for their raw food. Even my IBD dog thrives on raw, though he has to eat it dehydrated.


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## Zakia Days

Connie Sutherland said:


> The glycemic response, glycemic index, glycemic load ...... these are not concepts for humans only.
> 
> White potatoes and refined carbs affect dogs too.
> 
> 
> 
> eta
> Jim Downey pretty much hit the nail on the head about my lightbulb moment: it's hard to match the huge difference like seeing a senior's life change when he starts eating fresh food.



All I can say is AMEN. I have found that my dogs are much more even tempered and able to deal w/ stress better. Shiny, almost sparkling coats, clear eyes, super quick recovery, and everything everyone else said. Welcome, and good luck w/ feeding. 

Quick note: I also fast once a week or every two wks. Sometimes (rarely) mal will bile vomit, so I'm careful. She may get a light snack on fast day.


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## Jane Jean

I started feeding raw 4 years ago. One of my dogs was 12 at the time and she lived til almost 15, her teeth and everything else looked so much better after switching. Look on CL for a freezer, you can find them quite often cheap. I would also get on a list for deer crash meat if you have the means to process it. Local DNR usually has a call list for hit deer to get picked up quickly. 
www.rawdogranch.com has some good information on rawfeeding(it isn't a distributor) 
I also think fresh(frozen) green tripe is one of the most beneficial foods you can feed, even if you feed kibble tripe is worth the cost. This article is informative on the benefits of tripe:
http://www.aplaceforpaws.com/reference-articles/raw-feeding/tripe-the-other-white-meat.html


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## Steve Groen

Thomas Jones said:


> wow lol that would freak me out if I was walking down the street and saw that


The rest of him went through the woodchipper!


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jane Jean said:


> I would also get on a list for deer crash meat if you have the means to process it. Local DNR usually has a call list for hit deer to get picked up quickly.


It's really not difficult to cut up a carcass, especially if it's going for the dogs and they don't care how pretty it is.  All you really need is a good knife, rubber gloves, rubber boots, and large ziplock bags. Vacuum sealing kits are even better and heavy duty branch loppers (the kind used for cutting thick branches) help with the ribs, but again, if you have a good knife, you don't need them. Vinyl apron is not a bad idea too. No saw needed with a good knife if you disarticulate the joints. I love cutting up meat. I should have been a pathologist. :lol: Maybe next year if I start bow hunting, I'll make a YouTube video on it. :-D


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## Peter Cavallaro

?'s. 

i have heard green tripe referred to frequently - what is that as opoosed to just the standard tripe from the butcher-shop.

i understand the value of liver in a human diet (i hate the stuff personally) as it contains lots of vitamins. what does kidney add to the dogs diet, it is inexpensive and my dogs love it so i would like to know its value.

i can get sheep/cow brains virtually for free, have never heard this organ mentioned by RAW feeders - is it bad/good what?

i can get chicken hearts cheap, they are tiny, i use them for training treats - any opinions on this.

lastly have been feeding out my last sac while transitioning to raw, still have a full bag of premium puppy "naturo" about 3 times the price of anything else. i am not going to open it, it is going in the donation box for the RSPCA, all RAW from here on - halleluja brothers and sisters.

FACT: my 2yo curr has always had varying degrees of inflammation/pink skin on belly and lower legs, it has disaapeared when on raw diet, false correlation, coincidence??? all i can prove is that its now gone.

i'm a believer


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## Maren Bell Jones

Green tripe is the uncleaned stomach (usually either rumen or abomasum) of a ruminant. They will have lots of little pieces of partially digested grass and whatnot in there due to the surface area of the stomach compartments. If you are ever curious what muscle and organ meats contain in them, you can check on the USDA's food database. Just enter "beef kidney" or "beef liver" and you can see how much is in 100 g (or whatever weight you like). Humans don't eat green tripe (it smells like Alpo), so that isn't on there, but many things are. Just be aware that if you select something like chicken necks, it's not going to tell you the calcium content because humans don't eat that either.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

I personally wouldn't do brains as we have not found to what degree dogs are resistant to prion disease like scrapie and mad cow. They are more resistant than cats, but eh...I'd pass.


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## Peter Cavallaro

thanks. 

i live on an island, no mad cow or any such nasties, our bio-security is bigger than our army because we want to keep it that way lol, rabies what the hell is that. 

so if green tripe is unwashed then you wouldn't be getting it across the counter - do you have your own source that isn't commercial? is the cleaned substance still of any nutritional value or was it just the digested veg matter. my dogs love chewing the tripe.


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## Maren Bell Jones

In the States, it's my understanding that is not legal for consumers to buy directly from the slaughterhouses from what I've talked to local producers, cause I have tried to from multiple people. Probably because it's not edible and not inspectable? I don't know. There are individual companies that sell green tripe both raw (frozen) and canned and it has been used in commercial pet food for ages (which is why Alpo smells like it).


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## Peter Cavallaro

thanks M but to be more specific does the washed/commercial stuff have any nutritional value


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## Maren Bell Jones

Well, P, put "tripe" in the USDA database and you tell me.


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## Peter Cavallaro

point taken, i was being lazy and would have been happy to take yr word for it. will get back to ya on that one with an answer hopefully


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## Maren Bell Jones

There you go. :lol: I'm now doing diet consultations and formulations for clients. As they say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYMnAUGFuG0

But the USDA is a really helpful source.


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## Peter Cavallaro

*now this sux, does it mean its good or bad?????? sorry about the big font*





deleted


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## Peter Cavallaro

see why i asked for executive summary - i don't know what all that shit means


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## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ... does the washed/commercial stuff have any nutritional value



Certainly nothing even close to the value that we go to so much trouble to get the green tripe for.

I wouldn't pay anything for it.

Maybe 10 to 15% protein. No big deal. Consider that chicken or beef (and other meats) probably have 23 to 33 (some even more) percent protein by weight (and other good-for-dogs stuff). White tripe is bleached (and often cooked) and no longer has the digestive enzymes and partly-digested produce, and almost none of the EFAs of green tripe.



eta
More important, though, is that I didn't see any RMBs on your short list, last page. I'm hoping you just didn't mention them but that they do form the basis of the raw diet.


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## Jane Jean

Green tripe can't be sold thru the USDA guideline but that doesn't necessarily stop some processors from giving it away! 
If you know of any that specialize in grass fed beef ask them if you can utilize it, whole tripe is a PIA to cut/and it is disgusting.
Though, if you have a grinder no problem!


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## Connie Sutherland

Jane Jean said:


> ... If you know of any that specialize in grass fed beef ask them if you can utilize it, whole tripe is a PIA to cut/and it is disgusting .... Though, if you have a grinder no problem!


Yeah, I have seen photos of a board member's wheelbarrow full. :-o :-o


Also, a lot better than none (IMO):

http://www.doggiefood.com/tripett.html?gclid=CIqI6b3K8qoCFUQbQgodJWzVOQ

http://www.greentripe.com/

http://www.texastripe.com/

http://www.saddogsushi.com/Green_Tripe.html

http://www.greentripe.com/products.htm


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## Alison Grubb

I recently made the switch to raw as well. I won't go back after seeing the change in my dog's physique and coat condition. He has energy for days as well, though he was never really lacking in that respect. I need to get a freezer and find some distributors in order to make it really cost effective though.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Connie Sutherland said:


> Certainly nothing even close to the value that we go to so much trouble to get the green tripe for.
> 
> Connie thanks for an answer i can understand, i won't even bother cross checking yr opinion - your word is good enough for me  sorry about dumping all that info.
> 
> _eta_
> _More important, though, is that I didn't see any RMBs on your short list, last page. I'm hoping you just didn't mention them but that they do form the basis of the raw diet._


only mentioned the items - internal organs i was still wondering about - definatelt using the RMB and MM with the largest % just didn't need to ask about it.

umm what does *eta* stand for, i'm guessing not "estimated time of arrival" as on our transport system??


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## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ... umm what does *eta* stand for, i'm guessing not "estimated time of arrival" as on our transport system??




"Edited to add"


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## Peter Cavallaro

oh....... i get things


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## vicki dickey

I have a 10 pound bag of raw food a local butcher sells in my freezer. I have been afraid to feed it after buying it with all the intentions of switching my dogs from Wellness Wilderness to rawfood.. So many of you seem to think it is the thing to feed. Why do some of you think it isnt the thing to feed? I read somewhere that there are parasites and bacteria in it and that people can get salmonella from it and the dogs can get who knows what and so the food has stayed in the freezer. I thought about throwing it away and now I read how dog's look better and feel better. I am undecided-can anyone help me make the decision dry or raw?


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## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> I have a 10 pound bag of raw food a local butcher sells in my freezer. I have been afraid to feed it after buying it with all the intentions of switching my dogs from Wellness Wilderness to rawfood.. So many of you seem to think it is the thing to feed. Why do some of you think it isnt the thing to feed? I read somewhere that there are parasites and bacteria in it and that people can get salmonella from it and the dogs can get who knows what and so the food has stayed in the freezer. I thought about throwing it away and now I read how dog's look better and feel better. I am undecided-can anyone help me make the decision dry or raw?


It's really important to understand that feeding raw is definitely not for everyone or for every dog. You have legitimate concerns (bacteria and parasites). And not all dogs do well on raw. I've been feeding raw since 2005 (sometimes exclusively, sometimes just once or twice a week) and I've seen raw go really really wrong. Everything from losing a litter of puppies from salmonella to rickets and angular limb deformities. But it can also be done well, if it's well thought out and you follow common sense but strict food safety procedures. I wouldn't feed raw if...



There were any immunocompromised individuals in the house, human or animal
If my dog had cancer (I would do cooked, I don't want to distract the dog's immune system from fighting the cancer)
There were very young children who didn't know how to wash their hands
To puppies if you have never done raw in adults before
If YOU don't want to do it.  Even if it's popular for some performance dog people, it's not for everyone. 

To some hardcore, quasi-religious raw foodists, I may seem even anti-raw (even though I'm not :lol. It just needs to be approached in a common sense, balanced sort of way.


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## Brian Anderson

vicki dickey said:


> I have a 10 pound bag of raw food a local butcher sells in my freezer. I have been afraid to feed it after buying it with all the intentions of switching my dogs from Wellness Wilderness to rawfood.. So many of you seem to think it is the thing to feed. Why do some of you think it isnt the thing to feed? I read somewhere that there are parasites and bacteria in it and that people can get salmonella from it and the dogs can get who knows what and so the food has stayed in the freezer. I thought about throwing it away and now I read how dog's look better and feel better. I am undecided-can anyone help me make the decision dry or raw?


Vicki if I may. Sit a bowl of raw down beside a bowl of kibble and see what the dog does. 

the dogs are primarily carnivores who operate at their best on meat, bone, guts, hide etc. I was a critic of it for a long time really "anti". I was also "anti" on marker training too. WRONG on both accounts (as well as other shit lol). But I digress ..... as far as the bacteria thing in the dogs. Best to let the Doc answer that so I don't screw it up. I am a reformed anti and I wont go back to the sack!! It is my opinion after seeing the difference in my own dogs and others. That a proper raw diet allows the dog to reach his full potential. Like I said as far as the veterinary reasons aside from the obvious. I will let someone more knowledgable than myself weigh in.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Forgot to add...what kind of raw is it, exactly? Like ground or meaty bones or something else? If it's meaty bones, you can boil water and dip the meat into it for like 30 seconds with tongs to at least kill some surface bacteria without cooking the bone. You might also find this site helpful, which is run by Dr. Lisa Pierson, a friend of mine. It's for cats, but many of these concepts apply.

http://catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood


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## James Downey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-MzXLdtAro

Give this a watch.


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## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Forgot to add...what kind of raw is it, exactly?



Huge question!

This is just a guess, but I'll betcha there are very few random butchers' "diets" I'd base my dog's food regimen on.

I wouldn't know how much bone (if any) there was, or anything else about it.

If it's ground up, I would want to know a lot more than "raw" about it.


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## Connie Sutherland

Brian Anderson said:


> .... I wont go back to the sack!! It is my opinion after seeing the difference in my own dogs and others. That a proper raw diet allows the dog to reach his full potential.


100% agreed!

But "raw" is not a magic word that turns any random collection of stuff off into a balanced diet.

There's a little learning to do.

This "bag of raw food a local butcher sells" isn't near enough information. 

That is, a raw diet composed of a badly skewed meat-to-bone ratio is not only not better than good kibble -- it can be a nutritional disaster, particularly for puppies.

Believe it or not, I've heard and read about many owners thinking they were doing their pups a favor with the infamous all-hamburger diet. 

No calcium! .... for a growing animal developing teeth and bones and internal organs ..... and often the first clue the owner gets is when the puppy's bones start to fracture during normal play.


So while I'm a huge proponent of fresh raw food for dogs, I'm definitely not a fan of careless random contrived-by-whim diets. 

It's pretty simple, but there is a bit to learn first.


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## vicki dickey

OOOOKay I am leaning toward raw after viewing the video and reading what everyone has said, but I think I need to research it more thoroughly to get it correct. The butcher I got the bag of raw diet from has bones, organ meats and meat chopped up together but I have no idea how much of what is in that bag. And how much to feed a 55 pound dog and a 30 pound dog. I was dumb enough to think I could mix it with their dryfood but someone said that was a nono. Can someone recommend a book that explains how much of what to feed? My fear is not giving them the right mixture because I want them to have everything their body requires. I always felt safe with serving them a premium dog food knowing someone knowledgable did that for me. I am using a grainfree food now called BlueBuffalo Wilderness. And to be honest that bag of guts and stuff is hard to look at in the morning. But if it makes my dogs healthier I am on it.


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## Connie Sutherland

vicki dickey said:


> I think I need to research it more thoroughly to get it correct. .... mix it with their dryfood but someone said that was a nono. Can someone recommend a book that explains how much of what to feed?


I think these are answered here:

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f25/raw-puppy-21457/


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## Maren Bell Jones

James Downey said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-MzXLdtAro
> 
> Give this a watch.


I agree with some things she says, but I think in others, she tries to over simplify things and ends up saying incorrect ones. Maybe I need to do videos or have an internet site or do a book... :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I've had some do well on raw and some not. For instance, unless I flashed the turkey necks first in boiling water [not enough to cook] one wold become ill. Another has severe constipation issues. I've seen puppies that looked rickety and unbalanced protein can get you weak pasterns. Several years ago two corgis died from bone perforations from raw chicken. I know people that do chicken backs or leg quarters only and internet lists/sites that advocate meat only with nothing else. I don't think that's balanced enough even if you do a ton of supplements. There's a commercial raw food site out there [prey something or another] that has a calculator to determine how much. For instance Khira at 60 lbs was 1.5 pounds of raw per day. They also state that raw meaty bones alone are insufficient. This isn't something you just leap into. Research first and start with one type of meat first and see how how your dog does before adding others. I was feeding high end kibble with supplements and switching to a home cooked diet did wonders for my dogs--really noticeable in the geriatric ones. I do like weekly raw turkey necks for teeth cleaning.

Terrasita


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## vicki dickey

Maren you wouldnt consider moving to St Peters MO would you? 
I want to feed my dog the best I can so I can give him the best life he can have. If that means dishing up guts and yuck I will do it but I want to make sure I am dishing it up in the proper amounts. Until I feel I know what I need to know, he will have to live on Blue Buffalo Wilderness-at least it is grainless.

Here's a question-IF you dont feed raw stuff what food is the next best thing for a dog? Surely there has got to be a food that is equal to or close to a raw diet and is a close second. Or maybe is there something I can add to the dry food to make it better.
Another question? Are cow ears okay? Zak loves them and I buy them by the bulk so he can have a chew every night. Of course they are not raw-they are dried.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Brian Anderson said:


> Vicki if I may. Sit a bowl of raw down beside a bowl of kibble and see what the dog does.


I wouldn't use this as a benchmark test, I've seen to many dogs who will refuse to eat raw food, and choose the kibble instead. Have made suggestions to numerous owners who are trying to switch their dogs to raw and even after a few days of being offered raw only, the dogs won't touch it. So ...

But hey, some people don't like vegtables either, doesn't mean they are bad for them 

I think raw done correctly is great, personally I do raw and kibble, my one foray into raw only did not go well, but one of these days I might give it another try.


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## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> Maren you wouldnt consider moving to St Peters MO would you?
> I want to feed my dog the best I can so I can give him the best life he can have. If that means dishing up guts and yuck I will do it but I want to make sure I am dishing it up in the proper amounts. Until I feel I know what I need to know, he will have to live on Blue Buffalo Wilderness-at least it is grainless.
> 
> Here's a question-IF you dont feed raw stuff what food is the next best thing for a dog? Surely there has got to be a food that is equal to or close to a raw diet and is a close second. Or maybe is there something I can add to the dry food to make it better.
> Another question? Are cow ears okay? Zak loves them and I buy them by the bulk so he can have a chew every night. Of course they are not raw-they are dried.


My in-laws live in St. Charles and I'm from Columbia. I'm in Wentzville a lot as our PSA club is there. I may end up doing house calls for good clients I know in the area if I'm going to be there anyways for training. You're always welcome to come check out PSA training too. 

I personally think that home prepared cooked that's balanced is the best. There are a lot of myths about magical enzymes in raw food (and "life forces" and other handwaving if you really getting into the woo territory of some of the raw foodies) that I have asked both several board certified veterinary nutritionists as well as biochemists about and they don't exist. So there are a lot of risks to raw and no clear benefits other than perhaps dental health (except you have to watch for fractured teeth) and it's less work than cooking. There's also nothing any more natural about feeding _only_ chicken backs or thighs or whatever. That's not "natural" either. What would be more natural is to not feed your dogs anything and let them hunt their own prey and get into the trash and scavenge. That's more natural. :lol: 

There's a lot of good food manufacturers out there. I still like EVO, California Natural, and Healthwise, plus Wellness, Holistic Selects, and Nature's Variety. I am growing to dislike Orijen as time goes on. I also do not like Blue Buffalo. I also don't think "grain free" is the best for every dog. Some dogs do not do well on grain free (my Malinois is one) and just because it is grain free, doesn't mean it's low carb.


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## vicki dickey

I have to say I am leaning toward a nice dry kibble. When I work with Zak and he does something really great and I tell him "excellant" he gets all happy and jumps from the ground to my face to give my cheek a kiss and I would rather know he ate kibble for breakfast and not guts and yuck if you know what I mean.


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## Giena Zeches

Good to hear more people are feeding their dogs raw. I've been feeding %100 raw for the past two years and I absolutely love the results I get. My dogs sure love it too!


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## rick smith

there is TONS of data available on line for anyone taking the time to do an intelligent search and study, and "raw" threads seem to go on forever with no concensus !

with that :
i feed raw; have for about ten years now
i am not detail oriented and lazy, meaning i'll dismember a whole chicken or even a turkey sometimes and ziplock pieces in the freezer and mix with RMB's, and do not weigh out portions any more, and just pull out whatever is on the top of the pile
- every now and then (months not weeks) i will blend up some greens, carrots, apples, etc; freeze the mulch and bag em to add with the meat, but i don't do it on a scheduled basis, so my feeding is 90% meat with a lot of raw eggs mixed in
- i also feed little dried fish, salmon (raw), raw pig ears, pork neck bones, beef neck bones, oxtails with fat trimmed off as well as the basic rmb's, but i tend to concentrate on chicken
- i will often buy a beef liver and cut that up too, and a lot of dogs i have had don't seem to care for it raw so i often toss it in a fry pan for a few seconds with some garlic powder.....they all love it that way, but i probably don't feed the "recommended" amount of organs

- i've been lucky....my pets have never had visible problems and done well and many people comment they have baby soft fur and no doggy breath with nice teeth (i don't shampoo - i blow coats with a harley blower)

*** i have always been a bit paranoid that it wasn't "balanced", but have never been able to get good info from vets or nutritionists and how you can actually TEST to see if your raw diet is "balanced" well enuff......until some big problem would show up, and then of course it's too late :-(
....and i often still wonder if i'm doing it right

- i don't worry about salmonella and parasites.....i prepare my food like a human was gonna eat it ....raw 
....and in japan of course there are a lot of "raw eaters" 

i don't try to "convert" anybody but i do tell em if they can't get the confidence needed try it out, that i am pretty darn sure they won't kill the dog or cat, and if you wanna learn how to swim you eventually have to get in the water 

plus there are feral dog populations all over the world that have fairly healthy packs of "scavenging carnivores" running around living off trash that people throw out and a few "yummie" (but not always nutritionally sound) handouts from those who care about em

ymmv


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## maggie fraser

rick smith said:


> there is TONS of data available on line for anyone taking the time to do an intelligent search and study, and "raw" threads seem to go on forever with no concensus !
> 
> plus there are feral dog populations all over the world that have fairly healthy packs of "scavenging carnivores" running around living off trash that people throw out and a few "yummie" (but not always nutritionally sound) handouts from those who care about em
> 
> ymmv


Well, if feral dogs are eating trash, then that's what they're eating . Feeding raw can be a disgusting, time consuming, facility requiring, laborious and smelly procedure for what, feeding a dog ? I would maybe get it more when considering multiple dogs as in a kennel or where cost is a major consideration . But taking it up as a major hobby unless of course one's dog(s) do not appear to be thriving on other less thought provoking, time consuming, more commercially prepared diets, why do it ?


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## Peter Cavallaro

reasons to feed raw;

1. dogs like it and do well on it
2. u get to feel morally superior to people that don't
3. u get to say smart things like 1.5% calcium in the RMB intake
4. u can impress dumb shitzu owners at shows by saying in a loud confident voice things like "small chain branched amino acids" 
5. if re-incarnation is true u might come back being a dog and yr owner is a fanatic over-caring RAW feeder so its worth the Pascal's wager
6 makes u feel good on the way to work in the morning that u spent the extra 2 minutes making something thats good for your dag and something it will really enjoy
7 u get to call "them" non-RAW feeders sac-whackers

cheers


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## David Krider

I have read the posts on feeding raw and I am surprised at the problems people are having in feeding their dogs. We are talking about an animal that has one of the most marvelous digestive systems on the planet. 

Feeding dogs is simple, the hard part is keeping it simple.

Depending on what degree of performance we are aiming for, dogs will do well on several diets as long as we don't do abrupt changes in their diet.
Dogs thrive on consistency.

Most people never expect or require more than 20% of what their dogs are capable of. 

Years ago one of the most prominent animal nutrition companies stated that protein is protein. Soybean meal was just like meat and dogs could do just as well on soybean as meat. The audience all knew at the time it was wrong, but we didn't know why it was wrong. We did know from our own experience that it was wrong.

Because science can not explain why something works doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Balance is important, but to say you can not mix raw with commercial dry kibble is not proven in the ability of a dog to excel in its field and develop to its potential in a competitive environment.
The least cost ingredient in a commercial food is the vitamin and mineral premix. Is it all digestible, probably not, more like insurance.

When a coyote, wolf, or lion takes down a meal, they start at the rear and go through the inside organ meat first. This should tell us something about what to supplement a commercial diet with.
If a dog does not like raw liver it is only because it has not been exposed to it enough.
When feeding a high potent supplement like raw liver, a little goes a long way.

Our dogs have developed from a feast and famine way of life. And to be afraid that a healthy dog is throwing up his stomach fluid because he misses a day of feed is a non worry. 

I am on the side of a raw common sense diet, and after feeding 40 to 80 competitive dogs a day for 20 plus years I am very opinionated on what works and what doesn't, and my opinion is based on trial and error with some of the most remarkable animal athletes on the planet.

As I stated in another thread the more highly digestible meat and fat you feed your dog the healthier and higher performance you can expect. At this level the commercial kibble is considered filler.

The other factor to consider is dehydration. The dog on a high meat diet will not overheat or suffer from dehydration as quick as on a kibble diet.
If your dog is not stressed it is not a concern.

Please keep in mind that changes should be gradual and results often take 30 days or more.

My wife tells me I tend to preach. I think I am more like a friend of mine who says " I may not always be right, but I am never in doubt."


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## Connie Sutherland

_"... to say you can not mix raw with commercial dry kibble is not proven in the ability of a dog to excel in its field and develop to its potential in a competitive environment."_

Three readings, and I still don't know what this says. :lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro

glad u missed it Connie, i thought i was just being dumb


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

David Krider said:


> I have read the posts on feeding raw and I am surprised at the problems people are having in feeding their dogs. We are talking about an animal that has one of the most marvelous digestive systems on the planet.
> 
> Feeding dogs is simple, the hard part is keeping it simple.
> 
> Depending on what degree of performance we are aiming for, dogs will do well on several diets as long as we don't do abrupt changes in their diet.
> Dogs thrive on consistency.
> 
> Most people never expect or require more than 20% of what their dogs are capable of.
> 
> Years ago one of the most prominent animal nutrition companies stated that protein is protein. Soybean meal was just like meat and dogs could do just as well on soybean as meat. The audience all knew at the time it was wrong, but we didn't know why it was wrong. We did know from our own experience that it was wrong.
> 
> Because science can not explain why something works doesn't mean it doesn't work.


True. However many raw feeder websites are building their ideas and thus recommendations on false premises such as dogs are carnivores. Nearly every raw food website says this. They like this romantic idea of a pack of wolves out of White Fang pulling down a noble elk or moose and that's all they eat. Many raw foodies somehow missed the memo that canids are omnivores, not strict carnivores, that also eat fruits, tripe, a small amount of grass, whole rodents (who they theimselves consume grains) and so on. Dogs also evolved with our ancestors for thousands of generations who cultivated grains and grain products such as breads. My dog is one that does better with some grain in his diet, sorry.  



> Balance is important, but to say you can not mix raw with commercial dry kibble is not proven in the ability of a dog to excel in its field and develop to its potential in a competitive environment.


I believe people are referring to not mixing raw and kibble in the same meal because they digest at different rates. Raw and canned should be fine.




> The least cost ingredient in a commercial food is the vitamin and mineral premix. Is it all digestible, probably not, more like insurance.


No. The vitamin pre-mix costs about $5.00 a pound and is actually about the most expensive thing in dog foods.



> When a coyote, wolf, or lion takes down a meal, they start at the rear and go through the inside organ meat first. This should tell us something about what to supplement a commercial diet with.
> If a dog does not like raw liver it is only because it has not been exposed to it enough.
> When feeding a high potent supplement like raw liver, a little goes a long way.
> 
> Our dogs have developed from a feast and famine way of life. And to be afraid that a healthy dog is throwing up his stomach fluid because he misses a day of feed is a non worry.


When a "healthy" dog is throwing up, I do worry. Sorry.  Even "fast days" at zoos, they will usually give the animals a very small meal. When I fed exclusively raw, I would give them at least a tablespoon of yogurt or canned food on fast days.



> I am on the side of a raw common sense diet, and after feeding 40 to 80 competitive dogs a day for 20 plus years I am very opinionated on what works and what doesn't, and my opinion is based on trial and error with some of the most remarkable animal athletes on the planet.


Am I right in remembering that you have a large kennel of dogs that get sold frequently? In adult dogs, you will not see nutritional deficiencies for a while. They are indeed geared towards feast or famine and balance over time. But over the course of months or years, that will catch up to you. One of my mentors is Dr. Susan Wynn, a very well known holistic vet who recently completed a residency in nutrition. I worked with her for a week and she sees a ton of raw fed dogs and has said if you're not feeding a balanced raw diet over time, you will see problems in the adults after about 1-2 years. That's been my experience as well.



> As I stated in another thread the more highly digestible meat and fat you feed your dog the healthier and higher performance you can expect. At this level the commercial kibble is considered filler.
> 
> The other factor to consider is dehydration. The dog on a high meat diet will not overheat or suffer from dehydration as quick as on a kibble diet.
> If your dog is not stressed it is not a concern.
> 
> Please keep in mind that changes should be gradual and results often take 30 days or more.
> 
> My wife tells me I tend to preach. I think I am more like a friend of mine who says " I may not always be right, but I am never in doubt."


Can be difficult to stay hydrated if the dog is having blow out diarrhea either chronically or off and on because they cannot handle the bacteria load. They are more resiliant than us, but they are not infallible and there is great individual variation.


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## Connie Sutherland

I was also surprised at liver being called a "supplement" ... a "a high potent supplement." I wonder what a high potent supplement is. 

_" We are talking about an animal that has one of the most marvelous digestive systems on the planet. ... Dogs thrive on consistency."_

I think dogs (scavengers) thrive on variety. Variety is the best way (IMO) to cover nutritional bases, including those that we don't even recognize yet. 

I'm not spending a ton of time on a reply, though; because I suspect a bit of tongue-in-cheek posting there.


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## Connie Sutherland

And how will we ever cover all the small-chain branched amino acid requirements without variety?

Right, Peter?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Connie Sutherland said:


> And how will we ever cover all the small-chain branched amino acid requirements without variety?
> 
> Right, Peter?


 
yeah whatever they is they is good, n makes pete sound smart


----------



## Zakia Days

David Krider said:


> I have read the posts on feeding raw and I am surprised at the problems people are having in feeding their dogs. We are talking about an animal that has one of the most marvelous digestive systems on the planet.
> 
> Feeding dogs is simple, the hard part is keeping it simple.
> 
> Depending on what degree of performance we are aiming for, dogs will do well on several diets as long as we don't do abrupt changes in their diet.
> Dogs thrive on consistency.
> 
> Most people never expect or require more than 20% of what their dogs are capable of.
> 
> Years ago one of the most prominent animal nutrition companies stated that protein is protein. Soybean meal was just like meat and dogs could do just as well on soybean as meat. The audience all knew at the time it was wrong, but we didn't know why it was wrong. We did know from our own experience that it was wrong.
> 
> Because science can not explain why something works doesn't mean it doesn't work.
> 
> Balance is important, but to say you can not mix raw with commercial dry kibble is not proven in the ability of a dog to excel in its field and develop to its potential in a competitive environment.
> The least cost ingredient in a commercial food is the vitamin and mineral premix. Is it all digestible, probably not, more like insurance.
> 
> When a coyote, wolf, or lion takes down a meal, they start at the rear and go through the inside organ meat first. This should tell us something about what to supplement a commercial diet with.
> If a dog does not like raw liver it is only because it has not been exposed to it enough.
> When feeding a high potent supplement like raw liver, a little goes a long way.
> 
> Our dogs have developed from a feast and famine way of life. And to be afraid that a healthy dog is throwing up his stomach fluid because he misses a day of feed is a non worry.
> 
> I am on the side of a raw common sense diet, and after feeding 40 to 80 competitive dogs a day for 20 plus years I am very opinionated on what works and what doesn't, and my opinion is based on trial and error with some of the most remarkable animal athletes on the planet.
> 
> As I stated in another thread the more highly digestible meat and fat you feed your dog the healthier and higher performance you can expect. At this level the commercial kibble is considered filler.
> 
> The other factor to consider is dehydration. The dog on a high meat diet will not overheat or suffer from dehydration as quick as on a kibble diet.
> If your dog is not stressed it is not a concern.
> 
> Please keep in mind that changes should be gradual and results often take 30 days or more.
> 
> My wife tells me I tend to preach. I think I am more like a friend of mine who says " I may not always be right, but I am never in doubt."


I think this gentleman speaks from his personal experiences w/ sled dogs. If I'm not mistaken, on another thread he commented that he used to have sled dogs and how they were/are fed. Hopefully I'm not mistaken. He is correct in that, in that particular arena, A LOT of sled dog people, when they prepare the "slop" (for lack of a better term), they mix in all kinds of things in it. Kibble is usually added w/ raw or cooked or veggies or whatever all else they combine to feed these extreme athletes. I don't think a lot of sled dog competitors that have a team of 80 or so (and in the off-season need to feed 8 - 10K calories a day) dogs has time to worry about mixing particulars like mixing kibble and raw. I'm not saying that none of them have these concerns and are careful, but a lot of them just throw it into the "slop" mix and keep it moving. Who knows, maybe there are a few bloat cases every now and then. Who's keeping track? Anyways, I don't think you can get anymore extreme than a sled dog team that requires 15k - 20k calories a day to do its work, so there may be some validity to his statements regarding those animals. 

Now, while I have, in the past, mixed raw and kibble I've since learned better. I personally do not do it, but occasionally it occurs (especially if I ask someone else to feed my animals) and luckily no issues. I think if you have breeds that are prone to this kind of thing, you have to be concerned (genetic predisposition, deep chested, unmonitored eating and activity, etc.)


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## Maren Bell Jones

I don't think the concern is so much with bloat as it is with lengthening the digestion time of the raw by feeding it with kibble, which could lead to overgrowth of harmful bacteria. Sled dogs are definitely prone to stress colitis (they are often used for the model of it), so it's not a good thing to exacerbate with too much salmonella, campylobacter, E. coli, etc. This is of course theoretical so far. Perhaps if I have to do a research project if I do a nutrition residency, I could look at this. :-k


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## Adam Swilling

Just thought I would throw in an update since I brought this up. We're going on week 2 and the dogs have never looked better!! My typical routine is letting them out of the kennel, clean it out, put fresh water down, then put the morning meal in the bowl. When they see me heading to the kennel with the bowl they go into a dead sprint to the kennel, no matter where they are in the yard. They love to eat this stuff! Their coats have never been softer or looked better.At the end of just 2 weeks I'm pleased with what I see so far. Their energy has never been better. Worked the Dutchie pretty hard last night and was amazed at how fast she recovered. On the weekends when I'm working at night, they still get some kibble; it's usually late by the time the wife gets the kids in bed and it's a little easier on her to just give kibble. They probably get it 3-4 meals a week. Other than that it's raw. They are doing great on it. I have to say I've ate a little crow over it, but it's the best thing I've done for my dogs as far as diet goes.


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## David Krider

How you feed your dog is a very volatile subject.

I tried to address several statements I had read on this thread, and yes there is a bit of "tongue in cheek" here.

I am not saying that anyone is feeding wrong. I am just relating my observation on feeding medium to large numbers of dogs over a long period of time from birth till in their teens. 

People, don't be so defensive, I am not challenging your background or your way of doing things, I am just relating what worked well in our competitive environment.

Keeping it simple, and not doing to much and to fast is the main focus on adding to or changing an animals diet.

Connie, what I meant by Liver being a high potent supplement is, based on our observation, raw liver produces the most noticeable improvement in overall health and vigor than any other one ingredient added to a commercial diet. 
Variety may have benefits of different or additional sources of nutrition, but, based on our observation, consistency of a well formulated diet does the most to reduce digestive problems.

Maren, I think you focused on just parts of what I was trying to explain.
Probably because I was trying to keep it short and to the point, which I failed to do.

While I am on the side of a raw meat diet for benefits we have observed, I do not feel everyone should only feed their dogs raw food. It is usually more labor intensive, often more expensive, and requires more balance.
When we strive for the highest levels of performance, the more raw meat products we feed the higher the performance level can go. 

We mixed raw and kibble and the different rate of digestion had no adverse effects on our dogs. Depending on the percentage of each, one seemed to help the other.

While the vit-min premix may be $5 per pound in a 30 to 50 lb. bag of dog food the manufacturer is not using lbs they are using small quantities. That is why you very seldom see a dog food that does not have the recommended levels, because it is economical to ad.

If a dog is constantly throwing up, that is unusual and it has a problem. Dogs and people occasionally throw up, if they can't then it is a problem.

Fasting, going one day without food should not be a problem for healthy dogs or people, and a lot of us should try it more often.

Again, everything I have stated is based on my observations on feeding large groups of dogs for their entire lives in a highly stressful competitive environment from birth till old age.

If anyone feels the need to tell me how crazy I am or wants more detail, please lets not clutter up the thread, lets do PM's


----------



## Connie Sutherland

David Krider said:


> .... Connie, what I meant by Liver being a high potent supplement is, based on our observation, raw liver produces the most noticeable improvement in overall health and vigor than any other one ingredient added to a commercial diet.


Ah. I getcha.

You threw me by calling it a supplement. I was thinking of the usual supplement definition (something intended to add further nutritional value to "supplement" the foods in the diet. Examples: a vitamin; a mineral; an herb or other botanical; an amino acid; etc.). It's too far off base to spend any more time on, but I asked because I think of liver as a food, like any other organ or muscle meat, and not a supplement.

You're right; it's derailing the thread. 




Adam Swilling said:


> Just thought I would throw in an update since I brought this up. We're going on week 2 and the dogs have never looked better!!


Excellent!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't think the concern is so much with bloat as it is with lengthening the digestion time of the raw by feeding it with kibble, which could lead to overgrowth of harmful bacteria.




Adam, this is why I recommend against mixing kibble and raw. Kibble digests much more slowly than fresh food, and this extended transit time can slow the passage of the raw that's mixed in to the point that food-borne pathogens in the raw food are given three times the normal "zip-through" time -- plenty of time to colonize, which is not the way the dog's system is normally set up. If the dog eats just fresh (or canned or cooked) food, it's a fast trip. When kibble is added, it becomes three times as long a trip. 

Two things I don't do with a raw-fed dog are screw with that normal transit time, or modify his very caustic stomach acid. So I don't mix kibble with raw, and I don't keep a dog on raw during any antacid protocol.


----------



## Adam Swilling

Connie, I always wait a minimum of 12 hours between meals on the days that I know they are going to get kibble and they never get raw mixed in with kibble on those days. I saw that that was a huge no-no, and for the very reasons you and Maren mentioned. Made perfect sense to me so on those days it's raw in the a.m., say 8-9 o'clock. They don't get anything else until at least 9 in the evening but it's usually closer to 10-10:30. When I'm at home in the evenings, which is most of the time, it's straight raw. I've got a feeling that it won't be long and the wife will be forced to forego the kibble no matter how late it gets when I'm at work before she feeds. She said the dogs look at her like she's got 3 heads when she puts kibble in the bowls, and they're starting to show some reluctance to eating it.


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## Connie Sutherland

Adam Swilling said:


> .... I always wait a minimum of 12 hours between meals on the days that I know they are going to get kibble and they never get raw mixed in with kibble on those days.



This is exactly what I would do if I fed both.


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## Peter Cavallaro

David Krider said:


> It is usually *more labor intensive, often more expensive*, and requires more balance.


 
agree with last comment not in bold, the first 2 i disagree with - and yr not crazy - i am the supreme lazy dog owner and i dispute that feeding RAW is labor intensive i suppose it depends how u define "more".

FOLKS; FEEDING RAW IS NOT A HUGE CHORE - hey thats my new sig. 

it is only marginally more work once you get a routine (which i'm still getting). i'm actually about to buy a food processor gadget to incorporate vegetables and grains into the beef matter, Connie beware painful questions on what veges and what amounts comin yr way.


the cost thing is simply incorrect unless have poor purchasing skills???


if yr too lazy to feed raw yr prolly too lazy to actually own / train a dog.


congrats Adam keep strong bro


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## Maren Bell Jones

If you want to do raw relatively cheaply, it is a lot of work buying things in bulk, chopping stuff up for the chest freezer, and so on. Having done exclusively raw for a good number of years and then switching back to mostly kibble, I was amazed at how much less work it was. #-o And I wasn't as likely to get pissed over the fact I had a chest freezer die and lost several hundred dollars worth of meat. You guys pay quite a bit for high quality kibble down in Australia though, right? If you raised your own meat and paid twice what we pay in the States, that would be a bigger motivation to do more raw.


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## mel boschwitz

I've always fed by the saying "balance over time". I feed a variety of meats throughout the week, and a small veggie glop mixed with eggs, yogurt, etc...been feeding this way for almost 15 yrs now and since I started feeding raw my vet bills are almost non existent, and my dogs work hard.

Personally I find it cheaper then feeding a premium kibble. I spend about 100.00/ mnth for about 350 lbs of dogs. 

I buy in bulk from a supplier every month. Takes a little extra time to bag everything up for the month since it all comes in huge packages, but after that it doesnt take much time to feed the individual meals.

Welcome to the dark side!


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## James Downey

High quality kibble...no such thing. It's kibble that's why it sucks, it's processed, preserved, cooked, guarnteed analysis, bag ingredients are all misleading. Dog food companies are like McDonalds. I am sure everyone here can amke a better burger than McDonalds....but all of us put together for the rest of our lives will never sell as many burgers as McDonalds does in one day. Dog Food is not about giving your dogs health and wellbeing...it's about selling the shit. So they will tell it's grain free, it's preserved with this, they will put pictures of fresh raw meat on the side to make it seem like that's what in the food...but it's not! It's all about selling dog food. making money. Take a piece of high quality kibble. Put it in a jar, leave it there. how long does it take to decompose. Set it next to a mcdonalds french fry. I bet the french fry does not last as long as the kibble. I found an old bag of Orijen when I lived in San Diego in one of my tubs. It was there for almost 4 years. It looks like I just bought it. And dogs are suppose to digest that. bacteria and fungus does not even want to eat that crap.


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## Peter Cavallaro

here, here well spoken. folks justify kibble but what they are really doing is justifying their laziness and POS'ness. if feeding RAW is too much work get a pet rock.


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## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ... justifying their laziness ....


No, I think that there really is a learning curve. I also remember spending a TON of time on sourcing and storing and prep.

But it has become so second nature to me that the time I put into it now is negligible. The butcher saves Smart Chicken backs in the freezer for me; I grab a bunch of so-called "Rock Cornish Game Hens" when they are a dollar; I buy a zillion cans of no-salt-added sardines when they are a dollar; I take home big baggies of leftovers from the farmers' market every week and throw them into the freezer; the fishermen who fillet their catch at the docks sell really cheaply (and sometimes give away) the scraps; I buy yogurt by the gallon container, and lots of whatever MM is on sale .....

So it really becomes much easier, cheaper, and faster the longer you do it.

But also, I'm a pretty careful eater myself. If I frequented McDonald's and IHOP, then I imagine the idea of anything more complicated than opening a bag for the dogs would sound bizarre to me.

Luckily, the choices in commercial foods nowadays make it very doable to feel a dog well without doing raw. Especially if variety is always kept in mind, then canned, dehydrated, frozen, and dry (kibble) foods can form a much better commercial diet than was possible even as recently as 15 years ago.

JMO! 

For me, real food, fresh food --- is my preference (for all of my pack!). :lol: But if I had to, I could devise a good diet for the dogs without raw.


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## Faisal Khan

I think there should be an objective measurement for example "I feed raw and my dog won the Nationals" or "I feed kibble and my dog won the Nationals" kinda stuff. Ok so it does,nt have to be the Nationals but some kinda objective metric, not just "his fur and teeth shine" as it is seriously subjective. Some people with yellow teeth think their choppers are the best in the world! Just like some people that are seriously un-fit but think they are super fit, put them in a competition and it all falls apart.


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## James Downey

My wife's dog was dying and could not even negotiate 2 stairs to go to her kibble...she was wasting away at nine years old. I had to carry her outside to go potty. within a month of feeding of raw she was back to playing ball, playing with the other dogs...and lived till she was 16. her mind failed her, not her body. That's all the objective measurement I needed.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

James Downey said:


> My wife's dog was dying and could not even negotiate 2 stairs to go to her kibble...she was wasting away at nine years old. I had to carry her outside to go potty. within a month of feeding of raw she was back to playing ball, playing with the other dogs...and lived till she was 16. her mind failed her, not her body. That's all the objective measurement I needed.


I was feeding kibble that cost $50+ a bag and getting more expensive by the week. A week on a home made cooked diet and our elderly dogs looked and acted as if they had a new lease on life. I've done the home made diet and raw along with supplements and that's been better for the dogs than anything that comes in a bag. I would be super careful with a puppy. My guys get lots of steamed kale and sweet potatos. I grind broccoli and asparagus stems as well for them and whe I catch the froze colld greens on sale, they're fair game as well. All the human food prep trimmings, they get. There's also eggs, cottage cheese,yogurt, canned mackeral [great for a lazy day] and they love the strawberry and tomato tops. I think once you're into it, you stop measuring. I watch feet and pasterns as far as to whether there is too much on the protein side.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro

Faisal Khan said:


> I think there should be an objective measurement for example "I feed raw and my dog won the Nationals"


 
Fais no offence but your experimentally methodology is complete crap on so many levels i'm struggling to bring into words. 

what would be your independent variable, your control and your dependent variable be, this is some dumb shit.

if 2 dogs are on the podium and they are both on kibble is the one in first place there because they had more kibble' dumb science bro WTF u from kansas. the dumbness of this "objective measurement" is aaahhh


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## Faisal Khan

Hehe, now I know. Keep on going (to nowhere).


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## Adam Swilling

James Downey said:


> My wife's dog was dying and could not even negotiate 2 stairs to go to her kibble...she was wasting away at nine years old. I had to carry her outside to go potty. within a month of feeding of raw she was back to playing ball, playing with the other dogs...and lived till she was 16. her mind failed her, not her body. That's all the objective measurement I needed.


 It's stories like this that made me start thinking twice about whether or not to do it. I never really downed raw feeding, I just couldn't justify any extra cost. When I got my numbers down, I started doing the math.It wasn't going to cost me any more per month. I'm not saving money, but I'm not spending extra either. So, I thought what the hell. Give it a shot. My dogs have always looked good, but now I see an improvement in that. I mentioned in an earlier post that what has surprised me the most is how their energy is so much more even. The recovery times at training really are shorter. I've noticed that they don't drink as much water as before. Stools are the best they've ever been, and there's no odor near the kennels anymore. Feeding takes me no longer now than it did on kibble. Now, when I find whole chickens on sale and have to cut them up that takes a little time, depending on how many I'm doing. But I can go through a chicken pretty quickly; too many years cutting them up at my grandparents' house. But my overall feeding time is the same. It's only as convenient or inconvenient as you make it. It's the end of week 2 an I"m already glad I did it. Can't wait to see the end of the first 30 days.


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I was feeding kibble that cost $50+ a bag and getting more expensive by the week. A week on a home made cooked diet and our elderly dogs looked and acted as if they had a new lease on life. I've done the home made diet and raw along with supplements and that's been better for the dogs than anything that comes in a bag. I would be super careful with a puppy. My guys get lots of steamed kale and sweet potatos. I grind broccoli and asparagus stems as well for them and whe I catch the froze colld greens on sale, they're fair game as well. All the human food prep trimmings, they get. There's also eggs, cottage cheese,yogurt, canned mackeral [great for a lazy day] and they love the strawberry and tomato tops. I think once you're into it, you stop measuring. I watch feet and pasterns as far as to whether there is too much on the protein side.
> 
> T


This is very much my own POV. I would be super careful with a growing pup. 

But at this point, after this many years, feeding adult dogs has become extremely easy. I do believe there are certain "dues" to pay at first. Some reading, some questions ..... not a random diet-on-a-whim. 

And I forgot to mention the canned mackerel, T.  That too can be had for a dollar every so often at the dollar store or the end-caps of the big discount drugstores. The $1 sardines are my fave, though, because the no-salt-added are so easy to find.


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## Kadi Thingvall

James Downey said:


> My wife's dog was dying and could not even negotiate 2 stairs to go to her kibble...she was wasting away at nine years old. I had to carry her outside to go potty. within a month of feeding of raw she was back to playing ball, playing with the other dogs...and lived till she was 16. her mind failed her, not her body. That's all the objective measurement I needed.


And on the flip side, both Isis (my first Malinois) and Ping (my foundation female) lived to be 16.5 years old, eating kibble. 



Peter Cavallaro said:


> here, here well spoken. folks justify kibble but what they are really doing is justifying their laziness and POS'ness. if feeding RAW is too much work get a pet rock.


These types of comments always make me laugh. Of course it's not because people have researched things, tried various diets, and based on their results made a decision to feed something different than what you feed. It couldn't be that, just that the person is a lazy POS who shouldn't own a dog.


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## Connie Sutherland

Kadi Thingvall said:


> ... These types of comments always make me laugh. Of course it's not because people have researched things, tried various diets, and based on their results made a decision to feed something different than what you feed. It couldn't be that, just that the person is a lazy POS who shouldn't own a dog.



Of course you are correct. I would like not to see that kind of comment here again. 

I hope the raw feeders here can rise WAY above the "cult" ones I read about on some other boards. Here and LB are really the only raw boards I know where turning raw feeding into a religion doesn't often happen.

I hope we can keep it that way. There are many great ways to feed dogs these days.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> Of course you are correct. I would like not to see that kind of comment here again.
> 
> I hope the raw feeders here can rise WAY above the "cult" ones I read about on some other boards. Here and LB are really the only raw boards I know where turning raw feeding into a religion doesn't often happen.
> 
> I hope we can keep it that way. There are many great ways to feed dogs these days.


I agree. I really hate the cult approach and won't join any of those boards. Frankly one of the reasons I like all the different WDF forums is that everything is covered. Its one stop shopping. I don't need other boards given the multiple topics/expertise here. Other than losing it when one of my puppy folks told me she was feeding the dog Beneful, I try to be objective and non-judgmental. Its a lifestyle issue as well as finances, time, availability, etc. I always read these threads because its great to read other ideas and get reminders [organ meats]. I think Greg Empey's posts on feeding the pregnant bitch are a great resource and sent me looking at the Urban Wolf [great name] stuff just to see what they put in their formulas. Contrary to the cults, I don't consider raw the cure all for genetic health issues and caution that some conditions are masked. You shouldn't have to feed raw to avoid certain health issues. That said, I think the commercial kibble profit game has failed dogs in general.


T


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## Peter Cavallaro

Connie Sutherland said:


> Of course you are correct. I would like not to see that kind of comment here again.


agree fully and u won't hear such comments from me.....again - err i came on board with the zeal of a new convert, all irrational and kinda stupid about it, my bad :|.


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## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> agree fully and u won't hear such comments from me.....again - err i came on board with the zeal of a new convert, all irrational and kinda stupid about it, my bad :|.


Like people who have just quit smoking. :lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro

Connie Sutherland said:


> Like people who have just quit smoking. :lol:


 
hey who have u been talking to that knows me??? 3rd day into it - struggling.


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## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hey who have u been talking to that knows me??? 3rd day into it - struggling.


REALLY!? I must have ESP and didn't know it.

I guess that would be an inferior kind of ESP, if it's not strong enough to know I have it. :lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro

look out Connie maybe we are just in tune with each other, like its a cosmic thing or sumthin - joking


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## Faisal Khan

Ummm nicotine flowing deep into the lungs, almost better than sex.


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## James Downey

Kadi Thingvall said:


> And on the flip side, both Isis (my first Malinois) and Ping (my foundation female) lived to be 16.5 years old, eating kibble.


I think living on the food is one thing, but watching a dogs failing health be restored by switching to whole natural foods is something different....Not the flip side. The flip side would be a dog eating RAW nearing death, switched to kibble and the dogvgets 7 years added on to it's life.


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## James Downey

Faisal Khan said:


> Ummm nicotine flowing deep into the lungs, almost better than sex.


 
Smoking is for girls and queers...real men jam the tobacco in thier lip.


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## Adam Swilling

James Downey said:


> Smoking is for girls and queers...real men jam the tobacco in thier lip.


 I'm sitting here right now with a dip the size of golf ball, so no argument here.


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## Peter Cavallaro

James Downey said:


> Smoking is for girls and queers....


 
too dam hairy to be a girl and the queer guys just never tried to pick me up, thats why i quit smoking.


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## Adam Swilling

Peter Cavallaro said:


> too dam hairy to be a girl and the queer guys just never tried to pick me up, thats why i quit smoking.


=D> That's funny.


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## Peter Cavallaro

gee thanks guy - i lay it on the line and u think its funny - insensitive #@!**


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## Kadi Thingvall

James Downey said:


> I think living on the food is one thing, but watching a dogs failing health be restored by switching to whole natural foods is something different....Not the flip side. The flip side would be a dog eating RAW nearing death, switched to kibble and the dogvgets 7 years added on to it's life.


My point was more that for every story of a dog who lived to be X years old eating one thing, there are stories of dogs living just as long eating something else.

But to be more in line, I have seen dogs down in the pasterns and flat feet just for starters, and read about other dogs with broken bones and other pretty major health issues, all from eating raw, who saw great improvement if not full return to normal once started on a quality kibble. It could be argued these dogs saw either a much higher quality of life, up to added years to their life, because of the switch to kibble.

Personally I think it was simply a case of the first food wasn't properly balanced for the dog, and the second food was. But that's one of my problems with raw, especially in dogs that are still growing, it's easier to screw it up than people seem to realize, and cause permanent damage to the dog.




Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Contrary to the cults, I don't consider raw the cure all for genetic health issues and caution that some conditions are masked. You shouldn't have to feed raw to avoid certain health issues.


This is actually one of my other main problems with raw. For the individual dog, done right, it can be great. But I do think it is used sometimes to mask issues, which is fine for that dog, but then the dog is bred, and the issues "forgotten" about.


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## Connie Sutherland

Hey, you guys, knock it off. 

I saw one post that a mod deleted for inappropriate content that was re-posted. 

Not OK.


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## Connie Sutherland

_QUOTE: But to be more in line, I have seen dogs down in the pasterns and flat feet just for starters, and read about other dogs with broken bones and other pretty major health issues, all from eating raw, who saw great improvement if not full return to normal once started on a quality kibble. It could be argued these dogs saw either a much higher quality of life, up to added years to their life, because of the switch to kibble.

QUOTE: *Personally I think it was simply a case of the first food wasn't properly balanced for the dog, and the second food was. But that's one of my problems with raw, especially in dogs that are still growing, it's easier to screw it up than people seem to realize, and cause permanent damage to the dog.*_

I totally agree. Nothing about raw food make it inherently balanced and healthful. There IS a bit of learning to do, and I also don't think a growing puppy is the dog to learn about raw with.


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## James Downey

Kadi Thingvall said:


> My point was more that for every story of a dog who lived to be X years old eating one thing, there are stories of dogs living just as long eating something else.
> 
> But to be more in line, I have seen dogs down in the pasterns and flat feet just for starters, and read about other dogs with broken bones and other pretty major health issues, all from eating raw, who saw great improvement if not full return to normal once started on a quality kibble. It could be argued these dogs saw either a much higher quality of life, up to added years to their life, because of the switch to kibble.
> 
> Personally I think it was simply a case of the first food wasn't properly balanced for the dog, and the second food was. But that's one of my problems with raw, especially in dogs that are still growing, it's easier to screw it up than people seem to realize, and cause permanent damage to the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is actually one of my other main problems with raw. For the individual dog, done right, it can be great. But I do think it is used sometimes to mask issues, which is fine for that dog, but then the dog is bred, and the issues "forgotten" about.


 
Sweet....Not my experience. I have not heard one first hand story of problems from RAW. I, like a lot of raw feeders, know literally hundereds of people feeding raw. 

Diet is simple. Everything people need to know about thier own diet they learned in kindergarden....when it comes to dogs. People all of sudden think there is secret formula, and if you miss it. You will kill your dog. 

My experience with pups on raw, is they grow slower, more evenly No gangly stage.Shoot I have pic of my raw feed dog, sitting next to her kibble fed sister....and my dog looks like a male sitting next to her. 

Your not going to convince me that a for profit company, is making a product that has your best interest at heart. Dog food companies are allowed to use hooves, hair, feathers, to inflate protien content in food. They are allowed to spray vitamins on the food, count them...then bake the food...which destroys vitamins! I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. But if you believe orijen is really, really great dog food. I feel sorry for your dogs. 

And Kadi, masking problems? how can raw be the culprit of breaking bones in one dog, and covering up issues in another? It can not be the cure in one dog and the problem in the other.

I am not so sure what the dogs did before the 40's when kibble was invented. Kibble is one of the most well marketed items ever....has to be. They have people believeing that real food is poison. Nature is not as complicated as people make it. feed the dog good whole natural fresh food, that his nutrients that are bio available.

This idea that some dogs have a completetly different digestive system, digestion and metabolism and have to cooked, baked processed food....that's a dog that should not be bred.


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## Connie Sutherland

Although I agree with the bulk of your post, I can answer this point:



James Downey said:


> .... how can raw be the culprit of breaking bones ....


It's not, really --- it's an unbalanced raw diet:



Connie Sutherland said:


> ..... a raw diet composed of a badly skewed meat-to-bone ratio is not only not better than good kibble -- it can be a nutritional disaster, particularly for puppies.
> 
> Believe it or not, I've heard and read about many owners thinking they were doing their pups a favor with the infamous all-hamburger diet.
> 
> No calcium! .... for a growing animal developing teeth and bones and internal organs ..... and the first clue the owner gets is when the puppy's bones start to fracture during normal play.
> 
> 
> So while I'm a huge proponent of fresh raw food for dogs, I'm definitely not a fan of careless random contrived-by-whim diets.
> 
> It's pretty simple, but there is a bit to learn first.


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## Debbie Skinner

I have positive experiences feeding my dogs and puppies and cats and kittens raw and have been doing it off and on since the mid-90s. 

I don't feel comfortable telling someone how to do it on an internet forum no more than I can tell someone how to train a dog on the internet...I'll never be that good at the written word and would need to see what is being done, condition of the dogs, and tweek the diet as time goes on and for each dog. 

But, I'll vote a "yes" to raw and only feed kibble when circumstances prevent me from feeding the raw. Ideally get with a mentor local to you just as for dog training and learn from someone experienced using the quality raw ingredients available in your local area whenever possible to keep costs down.


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## Thomas H. Elliott

Funny but around here in the country, one talks to the old old boys who laugh at all the stuff we give our dogs today.....heartworm, vitamins, flea this, tick that......all they ever did to their dogs was feed them all the table scraps they wanted. Let them run around and get old. (unless they got kicked by a horse or ran over by a model T) Many lived to be well over 15 years....big farm dogs too...
Good thread BTW.....


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## Debbie Skinner

Thomas H. Elliott said:


> Funny but around here in the country, one talks to the old old boys who laugh at all the stuff we give our dogs today.....heartworm, vitamins, flea this, tick that......all they ever did to their dogs was feed them all the table scraps they wanted. Let them run around and get old. (unless they got kicked by a horse or ran over by a model T) Many lived to be well over 15 years....big farm dogs too...
> Good thread BTW.....


Back then everyone raised a lot of their own food..veggies/fruit/meat... Their by-products got tossed to the dogs. Not exactly like today with all the processed foods most eat. What would by leftovers today would be very different than back then.

Also, back then people knew a lot more about feeding and raising animals because their parents taught them. How many people today raise their own food..not even a sheep or chicken..but even a tomato plant? How many could raise up a horse and then train it? Tell correct movement and structure? Tell when an animal is obese or skinny? These things were just basic skills one time in our history. 

Some skills have been lost and others gained through time.


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## Peter Cavallaro

don't view the past with total rose colored glasses - some of the old farmers were ignorant pricks the way the treated the most valuable but expendible piece of equipment in their opertaions - their working dogs, thats some not all. 

only expand on this by PM.


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## Thomas H. Elliott

Debbie Skinner said:


> Back then everyone raised a lot of their own food..veggies/fruit/meat... Their by-products got tossed to the dogs. Not exactly like today with all the processed foods most eat. What would by leftovers today would be very different than back then.
> 
> Also, back then people knew a lot more about feeding and raising animals because their parents taught them. How many people today raise their own food..not even a sheep or chicken..but even a tomato plant? How many could raise up a horse and then train it? Tell correct movement and structure? Tell when an animal is obese or skinny? These things were just basic skills one time in our history.
> 
> Some skills have been lost and others gained through time.


This is what I find funny about people who feed raw. Todays meat are so pumped up with all kinds of additives to the feed. Organic. How is that enforced? Even with vegetables. BTW I do feed raw. I do give my dog supplements. He likes the apples that fall of the tree best. NO pesticides or insecticides. All natural. I may make some home grown chickens just for my pup! Yes, make'em.....lol


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## Thomas H. Elliott

Peter Cavallaro said:


> don't view the past with total rose colored glasses - some of the old farmers were ignorant pricks the way the treated the most valuable but expendible piece of equipment in their opertaions - their working dogs, thats some not all.
> 
> only expand on this by PM.


 
Oh, I do not even view yesterday with rose coloured glasses. Now is what it is. I just notice that reading the thread that some dogs have been feed ol' yucky all purpose dog chow and lived to be 15 years and others advocating raw say the same thing. I see people giving their dogs nothing but the best and not even walking them. I totally understand about the ol' boys being ignorant pricks about the farm dogs. Some may say that today with how some people view dogs. They are dogs. Pure plain and simple. They are there to do a job and that is all. I really do not care either way.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Thomas H. Elliott said:


> *Todays meat are so pumped up with all kinds of additives to the feed*.l


 

true but what are u gonna do, 

the air we breath is increasingly toxic to life as well, if its from the ocean it will be deemed too toxic to eat possibly within a generation or two, clean drinking water is a problem for nearly every government on the planet. 

you can only control what u can control and not sweat the rest.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Thomas H. Elliott said:


> *They are there to do a job and that is all. I really do not care either way*.


glad i'm not you then - not saying that offensively just that you must be missing out on some of the joy that goes with dog ownership and working as a team - and i'm glad some people *are* toiling away to raise the standards and kep them raised for their beloved working breeds - i guess yr not one of them. each to his own


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## Debbie Skinner

I am one of those concerned with where the meat comes from and how it's raised and fed. 

The best I've come up with is to buy from a local mobile butcher as he slaughters and butchers mainly animals that families are raising for their own meat, hunter's deer and elk, and fair animals. 

Also, since we keep an apartment at Redondo Beach right now, we buy the "chowder..fish heads, tails" to add to the mix and also when buying whole fish (catch of the day, etc.) for ourselves throw the carcass into the mix. 

We do raise rabbits (commercial rex), but not enough to feed the dogs. Back in the 90s, we raised a lot of rabbits (commercial whites) and fed the dogs whole rabbits. At this time they get the entrails, heads, feet when we butcher. The rabbits are 50% grass fed and also fed a quality pellet. Ron butchered 5 yesterday morning..took him less than an hour..that's the nice thing about bunnies..they are quick to process.

Also, have about 60 laying hens and the old ones do go either to the dogs or us. And we have Soay and Soay/Mouflon sheep. We feed the livestock the best feed available and a lot of fresh greens and quality cool weather grass hays along with some local organic wheat hay. Farm is about 3 miles the way the crow flies from our ranch or 6 miles driving. 

My neighbor is starting to raise meat chickens (cornish-x)..around 50 at a time so now we will trade rabbit for chicken sometimes. Also, another neighbor is raising some pigs. So we can buy/trade. There's a family run organic farm about 5 miles up the road as well that raises veggies and also grass fed cattle. 

Depends how far you want to take it as far as finding quality food sourses for yourself and your dogs. I really do not spend a ton of time searching, but try to be aware of the small businesses and what the locals have going and then can trade or buy products. 

That all being said, I do think how long animals and people live has more to do with genetics and also not being overweight and staying active and keeping the stress levels low. :grin:


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## Kadi Thingvall

James Downey said:


> And Kadi, masking problems? how can raw be the culprit of breaking bones in one dog, and covering up issues in another? It can not be the cure in one dog and the problem in the other.


Sure it can, there are many posts on the WWW about people feeding a raw diet to puppies and them having a variety of health issues. Bones so brittle they break, flat feet and pasterns, chronic diarrhea, etc. I haven't met a pup with broken bones, but I've seen plenty with the other issues. Was it an unbalanced diet? sometimes, but not always. As in another dog might have been fine on that diet, but it was not the right diet for this dog. 

Food allergies are one of the biggest issues I see people going to a raw diet for. Because their dog can't handle an ingredient, or multiple ingredients, that are found in kibbles. Having human friends with food allergies, many times to things they had no idea they were allergic to, and seeing the huge improvement almost immediately in their health when their doctors tested them and gave them a list of foods to avoid, I have to wonder when people switch to raw and see an immediate and huge improvement in their dog if it isn't the same thing. Allergies can cause a lot more than just itching, they can really mess with your entire system.

Final thought then I'm out, since I can see this going around and around and around. I have met breeders over the years who have admitted to me that they feed raw because there are food allergies in their dogs, in a variety of breeds. But once they went to raw, all the issues went away, so they are breeding the dogs. I just hope they are telling their puppy buyers that. 

I'm not saying everyone who feeds raw is doing so because they are hiding things, I think the majority of people just believe it's better for the dogs. Although I do get a kick out of people feeding their dogs raw, then eating on a regular basis at McDonalds  Personally I think a balanced diet that a dog thrives on is the best diet for that dog, I don't care if it comes from a refrigerator, freezer, a bag, the garden in your back yard, or a combination of places. What I don't believe is that one diet is best for ALL dogs out there. If people want to feel sorry for my dogs because of that, that's cool, I think my dogs are pretty happy campers


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## Debbie Skinner

For me feeding raw is much cheaper, but more labor intensive than feeding grain-free kibble. 

Many of my boarding clients including the rescue organizations love that I will feed their dogs raw and it is a perk and reason many board their dogs with me.

Also, it's easier to know the recipe since I'm the one making it and not some manufacturer where sometimes I find out later that they changed things up on me. 

I pay $38-$42 for Evo 28# depending if it's the original chicken/turkey or the fish formula...so roughly $1.43/#. I pay $100 for a pickup load of raw from the butcher..roughly 400-500#...about 22cents/#. Of course there's the expense of freezers, meat grinder. 

The dogs really enjoy the raw bones and working at chewing them and getting the meat off as well as tearing up lungs or tripe. 

For those that have the time and can find a good local source, it will be a financial savings as well as rewarding knowing what you are feeding your dogs. I enjoy making things from scratch..bread, cooking, etc. and this falls right in line for me. 

In 20+ years, I've not had any experience with puppies having ill effects from my raw feeding regimate. Nor, when I've sold a dog or pup and the new owner switches to a good kibble have I received negative feedback. I've switched back to kibble for sometimes several years for various reasons and then back to raw again. 

I can say the puppies and the mothers are in better condition when feeding raw and this goes for the cats and their kittens as well. Pups are little chunks on the raw. I'm making this observation after 20+ years breeding both Siamese cats and Beaucerons and Malinois.

I think most breeders sell their pups to a wide variety of homes and many dogs do not continue on a raw diet so any type of food allergy would not be "hidden", but immediately apparent. That's the nice thing about selling pups to others is the feedback one gets from others experiences with dogs from your bloodlines..health, character, training challenges, etc. More eyes the better I believe.


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