# Why separation



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Why does the law enforcement community need to be separate?
be it in the US or abroad they seem to train privately, compete privately, certify privately.
is it fear of lawsuits?

we all claim to want the type of dog acceptable for LE
so shouldn't we be on the same team?
It seems to me (in the US) there are better trainers and decoys outside of LE

every sport has the "Real" test applied to how useful it is
I know little about dog titles and such but i can think of 3-4 "sports" trying to be "real"

why not be real?
police are certifying there dogs to do what they need on the street why cant regular people play?

is that what KNPV is?
do they also limit who can play?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

The polical agendas on both sides are hard enough--I can only imagine if both worlds collided...what a mess it would be. knpv is a sport not a official Police cert.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike, I may make some folks :=( , but here goes. Alot and of course not all but alot of civlian dogs are better than alot of police dogs. To compete together could be bad for the general public to see or hear about.

I'm not saying all of either side.

There are resans though for this and one is the lack of training on the PSD side.

I'm speaking in general terms so please no one get their panties in a wad.

LE don't have the time that alot of others have to train. This isn't good. We, SK9S offers our help to LE and we're not taken up on it as much as we should. Some LE SOPs prevent this, liability. I understand this so some training with them is on the hush hush. Most of the LE psd problems is obedience, and again I say that everything a dog does stems from obedience. The dogs don't need to know any back flips of tricks BUT they must understand the basic commands and comply.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

and THAT is my point exactly. Wouldn't it be better for both sides?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jerry 

I agree with what you said-- But (you knew it was coming) you are in a part of GA were there are some problems...On May 5-8 Savannah will be hosting the USPCA region 2 spring trial, it is open to the public. Come on down and I think you see a difference in PSD quality.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Mike Lauer said:


> Why does the law enforcement community need to be separate?
> be it in the US or abroad they seem to train privately, compete privately, certify privately.
> is it fear of lawsuits?
> 
> ...


Unless there is a criminal record, any Dutch citizen can
be a member of a KNPV club and can compete in the
trials. I was a member for quite a while to get the
magazine, but I think that is much more difficult
for a foreigner now.

In my opinion, the really big factor here is that there
is so much police representation in the KNPV that they
have no reason to feel threatened.

For example, when I was introduced to the President of 
the KNPV at a trial, he was also a high level police
official.

Stepping back, this is the biggest issue for the working
dog in America today, for it is going to be very
difficult to make any real process without mutual
support.

Without police involvement, nothing any of us do is
going to ever really matter, the cops will still buy
their dogs in Europe.

And when we croak our kids will set all of our trophies
on the curb for the trash guy and whatever we did
will in the big picture mean nothing, because we will
have left nothing behind.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> The polical agendas on both sides are hard enough--I can only imagine if both worlds collided...what a mess it would be.
> 
> 
> knpv is a sport not a official Police cert.



That is simply not true. Period.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Why does the law enforcement community need to be separate?
be it in the US or abroad they seem to train privately, compete privately, certify privately.

Are you kidding ?? Do you realize how bad it would be if we got to see them training ??


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jim

Which part or the whole thing?

Will


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Maybe there's a little bit of this going on: "Oh wow...you mean he's good enough to be a police dog? I'm not getting rid of him then! I'm going to keep doing Schutzhund with him and drop that factoid whenever I can!"

If only people knew how little it takes. I am sure that they do not want this addressed.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jeff 

It definitely dont take much--I dont know why people are so interested in testing there dogs like psd when Mondio, FR, BR and Sch are much harder.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

WillI would like to see this. I'll put it on my want to do calendar.

Remember though I didn't say all, I said a lot. 

Yes I believe you about this area. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It definitely dont take much--I dont know why people are so interested in testing there dogs like psd when Mondio, FR, BR and Sch are much harder

You mean the PP people want to test their dog ?? Or the sport people ??

You are right about the sports being harder.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> Jim
> 
> Which part or the whole thing?
> 
> Will


Will, 

the first part is an opinion. I agree that it is difficult to
get cooperation, but the Dutch do have a 100 year record
of making it work.

But when you say:

"knpv is a sport not a official Police cert."

You are dead wrong on the facts.

KNPV "Koninklijke Nederlandse Politiehond Vereniging" 

The direct translation is: Royal Dutch Police Dog Association. 

The King or Queen is the head of state in the Netherlands,
and the Royal status is given by official government authority.

So the police dog certificates are exactly that,and the royal
seal on each one is an official government endorsement, from
the highest office in the land.

Furthermore, the certificate is the basic requirement to
go on the streets in most of Holland.

Furthermore, it is not a sport in the sense that it is done
only for a trophy or points, the vast majority of dogs trial
once for the PHI and then go into service, are used for
breeding or are retired.

My personal opinion is that the KNPV test is on the whole one
of the best in the world as a real police dog certification test.

But that is an opinion, and if you disagree I would be most
interest in what your basis for disagreement is.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

My unit has no problelms trainiing with civilian trainers. We have attended Flinks and Balabanov seminars. I have trained with french ring clubs and attended some Ellis seminars in the northeast. Any good unit is going to know what is happening in the civilian world. 

When I started training my current K9 (he was 7 months old) I traveled the 3 hours to get some good decoy work from Jay Lyda and Matt Hammond. It is all up to the individual departments. I am currently trying to get a Seminar together for the Fall that will hopefully include Bart Bellon (civilian) and Dick Van Leenen (from the KLPD) unfortunately due to liabililty and SOP it will be LE only


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jim

I think Dick Van Leeuwen could probably set us straight on this one...Lets hope he will reply and set us straight.

Will


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Will at 7 months he was tuff, I bet he still is even tuffer. I know he was then FAST. Faster now I bet. LOL


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jeff

PPD people should test there dogs in the sports. Most bites for patrol dogs are done during searches or chasing someone that is running. Not much personal protection involved. There is a misconception somewhere. What I consider a good psd is the type of dog that would do well in most sports but not be a high scoring one.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jerry 

I think we are a good team. He is the right dog for me and fits my way of training.

I hope to see you in May and will make sure we go out for some dinner if you come down

If Jay comes down I will definitely use him for some last minute training and when my schedule changes 

I will be up there for some OB tune ups.

Will


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Now that's what I like to hear. We'll be here for you.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> Jim
> 
> I think Dick Van Leeuwen could probably set us straight on this one...Lets hope he will reply and set us straight.
> 
> Will



OK, works for me.

But if Dick is confused we are just going to have
to find someone in Holland to set him straight.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> But if Dick is confused we are just going to have
> to find someone in Holland to set him straight.


:lol:


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> When I started training my current K9 (he was 7 months old) I traveled the 3 hours to get some good decoy work from Jay Lyda and Matt Hammond. It is all up to the individual departments. I am currently trying to get a Seminar together for the Fall that will hopefully include Bart Bellon (civilian) and Dick Van Leenen (from the KLPD) unfortunately due to liabililty and SOP it will be LE only


I'm happy to hear you're so actively involved. Did you get yourself a new puppy in the end?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

No new puppy/dog yet for our handler. Her 11 y.o. partner is going to be retired soon-hopefully a decision will be made.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

liability was the reason i was given also
the departments/cities don't want to be sued if someone gets bit during training
Their guys are all working so are covered by workers comp

and my thought wasn't one sided
it would seem to me it would improve both police and ppd

i have trained with several unofficially and we have a running joke, the "police heal"
which is anywhere within 6 feet of your left side


there seems to be a belief that too much OB would somehow ruin their dogs
but like some people mentioned with regards to the more demanding sports that may be true for weak dogs but not good dogs


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

This is my suggestion--get some k9 handlers involved in a dog sport-preferably one that has been around for a while and is recognized nationally(no big fish in a little pond)--Start a breeding program with a purpose (Mike Suttile comes to mind) Train the handlers in the sport and let them have some fun competing. The handlers will recognize the aspects of the training that works for them and let there departments know. Now you can train with and compete against handlers. As a bonus the good dogs could be bought by departments and everybody wins.


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

Great discussion. One way to integrate sport trainers and Police is by making a foundation like the NH Working Dog Foundation. This way the foundation puts on trainings and seminars for the local PD's and has its own insurance as a non profit. 

http://www.workingdog.org/


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Francis

I missed the opportunity to train with you when I lived in NY and you were in NH. If you are ever in the southeast would really enjoy having you in Savannah for some training.

Will


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

OK, another little spin on this.

The sport and PPD trainers do this because to them it's fun. This isn't something that their bread and butter depends on. Anytime something is fun you tend to put more time into. ( Unless you are rich and then you hire someone to trial your dogs so that you can make money breeding ) 

Police do this ( most of them ) because they love their job, other officers do this because they look cool riding around with a dog in their car. These won't take the time in training that the dog needs. These K9 LEO aren't weeded out quick enough. These with these dogs that don't know sit from down and the depts. that know their dogs are weak ( Because of lack of training ) don't want any sport minded people training with or even helping them with their weak program. They cut their nose off dispite their face. Most of the depts that I'm speeking of, are small with very little to no money for training and are the first to loose their program. Their dogs may have come to them as good dogs but like anything else, if you don' use it you WILL loose it.

Liability sucks. Now you have a dept. that can and will benifit from help from sport minded dog trainers that are too proud to ask for it, or can't because of, liability.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jerry

I think you hit the nail on the head.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Will, sometimes even I get lucky.

It is a shame though.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

how many millions of organizations are there?
there are multiple different ppd organizations, multiple LEO organizations, multiple ring organizations, even shutzhund had/has its ukc version of the same thing and thats just nationally. I see several local or state places doing non-sanctioned shows, events.
i belong to none of them so i am not passing judgment just wondering why people cant get along
is the single national KNPV system looked at as the best?
why must everyone reinvent the wheel?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

"why must everyone reinvent the wheel?"

Good question--I dont have the answer. I have my own opinions (keep to myself) but I will offer one. 

I am pretty sure that geography has alot to do with it. Imagine if all of the working dog forum was in one medium sized state. Then everyone could train together and everyone would know where we all stood on our training. We could train with people that have similar philosphies on handling, breeding and training. That is one of the advantages that the dutch have.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Lauer said:


> why must everyone reinvent the wheel?


It's really simple Mike.....so they can be in charge.
Make the rules, control the trials, decide who passes and fails.
Heck you can even award the person who can do you the most good (or worships you the best) as the person of the year or
their dog as the dog of the year. etc.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Originally Posted by Mike Lauer: 
why must everyone reinvent the wheel?

This has confused the ever loving shit out of me for a long time. Then, just go around and see what kind of person does dog sport "in general"

They are the same lame o PPD people. Insecure little babies.

It is not going to change, I guess people just cannot deal with it when they find out that their training sucks, so they go and make a sport of their own.

Most of these off sports, the people that start them sucked at sport, couldn't train for shit, and the lack of control was always because the dog was "real"

So they invented their gay sports and felt good about themselves, as they no longer "sucked" in their mind.

Denial is not a river in egypt. HA HA I love that one. I should have used that for that OG that Kadi had in her decoy video. GOOD GOD that guy needs to just hang up that suit.

Do they make a retard level ??

What am I talking about again ??

Oh yeah, retards in the dog world. No wonder I got lost, so many to choose from.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the reason most don't train together is because "they" don't want us to learn the secret handshake. Something to do with a doughnut grip.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I think the reason most don't train together is because "they" don't want us to learn the secret handshake. Something to do with a doughnut grip.


 "Power-ring grip" to you.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob, now that's funny. Something I can smile about as I go to sleep tonight. Thanks man. LOL

There's alot of other things I'd like to smile about as I go to sleep BUT............. hey it's already late. LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie
 Yes ma'am! :razz: :-D

Jerry,
just smile and the world smiles with you. To many good reasons not to! :-D:wink:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> "Power-ring grip" to you.



Finally, someone understands.


DFrost


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have seen a pretty big swing in the last several years. Many departments are now more willing to train with outside people than they used to be. I do a lot of shooting classes for LE guys and at first they are a little reserved and dont want to open up much about their marksmanship skills, but after they shoot for a while and they realize they are not being judged they tend to relax and open up a little and then can can actually learn more about shooting correctly. I see the same thing with the K-9 guys.....it just takes time. 
The general public thinks that K-9 handlers are the best trainers out there and that may put a little pressure on them and make them a little hesitant to seek outside assistance. Most of the K-9 guys that I know well are very open to training with outside groups.
And believe it or not guys.....some of the K-9 guys that I know are very good trainers. Of course a lot of them are not, but such is the case with anything.
When I was in the Marines I met some very squared away individuals who were really model Marines, and then I met some who should never have graduated from boot camp. That is the way life is.
I just dont like to hear people say that the only reason that K-9 handlers dont train outside of their group is because they are afraid to show how little know about training. That is not always the case.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

LE has some great trainers who have a passion about the working dog, and are guys who if not in LE would be participating in 1 of the Dog Sports. Having said that LE also has K9 Handlers who can handle a dog, but have no real training experience. I will be the first to admit handling a K9 and training that K9 are worlds apart. In my opinion some of the separation has to do with ego. Sometimes Cops ( NOT ALL ) have a hard time seeking help from an outside source, even if they will learn something from it. I think that goes both ways regarding LE & Sport. I will say alot of the knowledge I have acquired regarding working dog training has come from the Sport side.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Jerry
> 
> I agree with what you said-- But (you knew it was coming) you are in a part of GA were there are some problems...On May 5-8 Savannah will be hosting the USPCA region 2 spring trial, it is open to the public. Come on down and I think you see a difference in PSD quality.


I should be in Savannah then, has a location already been decided? Definitely something to put on the calender And Jerry I sent you a pm.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

When I was the trainer for my department we used to train with civilians quite regularly. Our group consisted of SAR handlers from a couple of groups, a major security company and three police agencies. We often trained with other police agencies outside the regular group. My policy was that anyone who could pass a background check (the same requirement as for going on a ridealong) could come out and observe our training. I _wanted _ my guys to see what others were doing and how their dogs compared. 

Only drawback was that several times we had civilian trainers come out and observe and then I heard that they were taking credit for _"training our dogs."_


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Lou, did you confront them about what you only had heard?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jerry I can recall it happening three times. Each time it went almost exactly the same way. 

After I heard that rumor I called them up but didn't ID myself. I acted as if I was looking for some training for my own dog. After talking with them for a while I asked if they had any experience working with police dogs. Each trainer told me that they'd trained the dogs for a couple of police departments and then named my department among them. 

I called back the next day, ID'd myself, and told them the rumor that I'd heard. They denied that they'd ever said anything of the kind and that whoever I'd heard that from must have misunderstood what they'd said. I told them that I had spoken to them the day before and that they had been very clear as to what they'd told me. I demanded that they stop telling that lie. Two of them apologized right away. The third threatened that he was going to sue me and make a personnel complaint about what I'd done. He did neither.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Well, seeing as they wanted to take credit....maybe they should have been named in any lawsuit that may have come up against the departments' K9 unit. That'd stop that shit real quick!

I guess cops aren't the only ones who believe Police/military K9 are the holy grail of dog handling. Some civvies obviously believe it gives them more credibility by working with the cops. Thats one of the problems right there.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Lou, good for you. An excellent way to find out. Koodos to you. 

Howard you are so right. A suit would have done the trick too.

Some civvies obviously believe it gives them more credibility by working with them. Thats one of the problems right there. 

This is so true. I know some that are that way. And some can't even do sport work with an obedient dog. Sure they may bite well but if there's no control, somebody is going to get hurt.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Just recently I heard a rumor that so-and-so civilian trained one of our dogs. Don't know the guy, and he's never trained with us. Some people are so full of themselves.

And Jerry, you hit the nail on the head. People with no skills try to pump themselves up by saying they work with the police. Lets face it....the general public looks at police K9 as the top of the food chain and any association with us makes that person appear more credible.

Guys like you and your son who are chilled out are welcome anytime. The other wanna be's can kiss off! The problem is picking the fly shit out of the pepper as far as cool civvie trainers. Thats why most departments don't allow non police trainers because it's much easier to just ban em all instead of going through the grief of figuring out whose cool and who isn't.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

DEA contacted me last week. They said I was listed as a reference for a private trainer trying to obtain his DEA License. This guy must really not have thought this through however. 1. I had never met him. 2. My assistant had met him once when the man brought a couple of dogs for him to evaluate. Chuck (my assistant) told me he didn't like either of them so I never got a chance to see them. 3. The DEA Agent knew the departments policy of not allowing civilians to train with us. This man had claimed that he trained with us on a routine basis. I have a feeling he won't be getting his license very soon.

Our department has a policy that we are not allowed to train with civilians. Any law enforcement department or officers are allowed to train with us, and us with them. We've also trained with the military. I'm not permitted to conduct paid private training, seminars or certifications for law enforcement. The deparments says that since we provide those services without charge, when requested, for me to do so privately would be a conflict of interest. 

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Case in point...Dumbass:evil:


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

That brings us back to why its important for PD's to do there homework. Get out there check out proven trainers well known around the world or in your area and see what, how and why they train there dogs the way they do. Take what you can use and apply it to Police work anything you cant just dont do.

There is always room for improvement just got to watch for the snake oil saleman. Man there sure are alot of them.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Jerry
> 
> I think we are a good team. He is the right dog for me and fits my way of training.
> 
> ...


Id be more than happy to do some decoying to help you out Will. The whole thing sounds like a lot of fun, we'll plan on being there. We'll give you a call this weekend and talk with you about it. If you can, sneek up here some before hand too and do some training with us.


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