# Breeding/Stud Fees..What's the Norm?



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I've been asked by several owners of Les Ombres Valeureux dogs what they should charge as a stud fee. I want to give them an informed answer. I have not researched stud fees lately at all. 

I explained what I've done, but am now thinking, I have no idea if this is normal in the working dog community or not so want to ask others for information. 

What I've done with my dogs is similar to what is done in the racehorse industry which is offer introductory lower fees when first studding an "unproven" male. Unproven means not used or only has produced young pups yet to prove his worth as a stud dog and this is regardless of his titles or lack there of. When the dog is proven to be a producer then raise the stud fee appropriately. 

Many people that are trainers and owners, but not breeders have told me that the stud fee should always be the cost of a puppy from the resulting litter. I haven't followed this rule. Is this normally followed? I have charged 1/2 the cost of a pup when studding the unproven male and actually have never charged the cost of a pick pup. However, I've seen "famous, highly accomplished and proven" stud dogs fees be the cost of a puppy. 

Oh, and I'm talking about Malinois and follow the same rule for my Beaucerons (however they are so rare, it rarely comes up :wink. Not sure if it's different breed to breed. I welcome others experiences and thoughts of what is the normal practice. Thanks.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I just got huntin dawgs but I charge the cost of a pup pluse so much per pup after 6 pups. Don't know if this is the same as the working world.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I just got huntin dawgs but I charge the cost of a pup pluse so much per pup after 6 pups. Don't know if this is the same as the working world.


But I've always heard that it's the female that is normally responsible for the size of the litter?


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

In working GSDs the stud fees usually range around the cost of a pup, often a little less. Proven studs typically costing more than less proven ones. Lowest stud fee I've ever paid was $800, highest was $1500. 

Never heard of charging additional stud fees if the litter produces more than X number of pups. Especially since number of pups is dependent on how many eggs the female releases, not really on the stud. Only time the stud has any bearing on that is if he is having fertility problems, so I have heard of discounts/refunds of portions of the stud fee for very small litters.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Debbie I have not seen much difference in fees from a "Proven" Stud...to a "Non-Proven" stud. A friend of mine just inquired on a stud fee from Lupanis Duke...one of the best studs out there. 1000.00 Bucks...Same I have seen for less known studs. I know it seems wierd that thier is not much of a difference. But Again Debbie I am moderatly familiar with your studs....I know they have produced well and the demand for studs use is going up....I am one that has been researching your studs because of thier proven track record. Now saying that, I think that Demand is more important than the dogs ability to produce...these are not mutually exclusive to each other. I am sure you can pick out some big name dogs out there that are in high demand....but rarley produces a dog that is better than moderate, and yet demand seems to only increase on these dogs. Stud fees can go in excess of $2k. 

So, I think that demand for the use of the stud drives the price, not actually how good the stud is. If you have both that's great! But I will swear by Bico van de Berlex-Hoeve as a great stud. But everyone sees the dog...and does not want that much dog. I have not seen any of his puppies quite that much. Which is good, for a good dog you want about 50% of what Bico has. But his demand is super low. 

So, If people want to use your dog...they will pay. If they REALLY want to use your dog...they will pay more. And if they cannot live without using your dog....they will empty the bank account to do it....And this is what drives price. Not the actual ability of the dog. It may play a part, but it's not the force behind driving price.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I've always just used the "cost of a pup" rule of thumb, although generally I've charged a little less then the actual cost of a pup. It also depends on who is selling the pup LOL I charge a little less then what *I* charge for a pup, not what someone else charges for a pup, or I'd be constantly changing my stud fees based on who was doing the breeding, since some people might charge 800 for a pup and someone else might charge 2000.

I do think I'm going to start adding in costs for boarding/transportation if that is needed, since some breedings it's just a case of the person meeting you a few times, other times you have to go get the female at the airport and keep her for 2 weeks, other times they deliver the female to you and then you keep her for a few weeks, etc. So why charge the same amount in each case.

I do guarantee 2 live pups or a repeat breeding. If after 2 breedings the female still hasn't concieved or isn't delivering live pups we are done, since IMO there is probably something wrong with her. If it was my males first attempt at siring a litter we'd work something out, but if he has a track record of producing pups without a problem then I'd be looking at the female, although I wouldn't be against getting a semen count done on the male also.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I used to do the airport and boarding thing for free, but do not any more due to the horrible traffic, long distance to airports, fuel costs, loss of time, etc. Also, there is the liability of boarding someone's dog so I charge boarding and have them sign a boarding contract if they wish me to keep their bitch. I have a small boarding kennel so have very secure kennels. If I didn't I wouldn't keep anyone's dog here. I charge $1/mile (one-way) to pick up a dog to cover fuel and time. I much prefer the person come with their female and we attempt the breedings with them present and they leave with their bitch. 

We guarantee 3 live puppies (got that idea from someone years ago). I think that the formula was 1 for the bitch owner + 1 for the stud fee/or sell for the stud fee + one to sell (cover expenses). If the bitch had less I'd let them try again with her or a different approved bitch (not a sketch). 

Thanks for everyone's comments and ideas. It's valuable info.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

James, than ks for the comments and information. I guess the stud fee practices don't transfer from horses to dogs! LOL Go figure! Shows what I know...I'm over here running it like a ranch..either prove it or lose it )


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

It also depends on the dog itself, the pedigree, what he is producing, and what he has done.

The funny thing is talking to other stud dog owners, it is not a question of puppy price. It is what is correct on what to charge. If puppy price were the norm, there would be a lot of $1000+ stud fees.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Shows what I know...I'm over here running it like a ranch..either prove it or lose it )


that's the way i look at it too - if it's any consolation. what i can't fathom is why (in many circles) a young, completely unproven dog, with zero health testing or work to his name, and no litters on the ground, will fetch the same price as an older, established dog, with a list of prodigy similar to, or better than, himself.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> In working GSDs the stud fees usually range around the cost of a pup, often a little less. Proven studs typically costing more than less proven ones. Lowest stud fee I've ever paid was $800, highest was $1500.
> 
> Never heard of charging additional stud fees if the litter produces more than X number of pups. Especially since number of pups is dependent on how many eggs the female releases, not really on the stud. Only time the stud has any bearing on that is if he is having fertility problems, so I have heard of discounts/refunds of portions of the stud fee for very small litters.


I am not sure exactly how you and Skip reasoned this out Chris. If a bitch drops 10 eggs(keep it simple) and the males has a so so sperm count, but is fertile, and only fertilizes 5 eggs, which dog do you suppose determined the size of that litter. Conversley, if the male has a sperm count that is through the roof but the bitch only drops 5 eggs, which one determined the size of that litter? Takes two to tango and a lot of males drop off pretty radically after a few years.
It is quite common for my bitches to whelp 12 to 15 pups, would you guess it is all because of the bitch or would you figure the male has contibuted with a high sperm count.
Bottom line, no matter how many eggs are dropped, it still takes a dog with a lot of swimmers to fertilize them.....or....it is dependent on both dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> In working GSDs the stud fees usually range around the cost of a pup, often a little less. Proven studs typically costing more than less proven ones. Lowest stud fee I've ever paid was $800, highest was $1500.
> 
> Never heard of charging additional stud fees if the litter produces more than X number of pups. Especially since number of pups is dependent on how many eggs the female releases, not really on the stud. Only time the stud has any bearing on that is if he is having fertility problems, so I have heard of discounts/refunds of portions of the stud fee for very small litters.


Another thing. If the stud with a low sperm count is considered to be having fertility problems, why wouldn't a bitch that only drops 5 eggs be considered as having fertility problems? If I have a stud that can throw 15 pups, why would I be obligated to breed their bitch at a discount or refund part of the stud fee because she only drops a few eggs? The reasoning is escaping me.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am not sure exactly how you and Skip reasoned this out Chris. If a bitch drops 10 eggs(keep it simple) and the males has a so so sperm count, but is fertile, and only fertilizes 5 eggs, which dog do you suppose determined the size of that litter. Conversley, if the male has a sperm count that is through the roof but the bitch only drops 5 eggs, which one determined the size of that litter? Takes two to tango and a lot of males drop off pretty radically after a few years.
> It is quite common for my bitches to whelp 12 to 15 pups, would you guess it is all because of the bitch or would you figure the male has contibuted with a high sperm count.
> Bottom line, no matter how many eggs are dropped, it still takes a dog with a lot of swimmers to fertilize them.....or....it is dependent on both dogs.


 
My understanding has always been that even a reasonably potent male contributes tens and tens of thousands of sperm, and that the USUAL ultimate deciding factor is how many viable eggs the female has produced. My understanding is also that the male has a much higher deciding factor on the ultimate sex of each puppy. I seem to remember reading a long time ago that these 2 deciding factors (in most cases) are the same as human conception. Makes sense to me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ok, so someone brings a bitch that has the fertility problem and only throws enough eggs for a minimal litter and breeds to my dog that can fertilize all the eggs for a huge litter. In this case she would be the determining, or better put, the "limiting" factor. Would you think the stud owner should reimburse the stud fee or part of it in this case since the problem is clearly not with the stud? I get the feeling what is being said, is that if it is a huge litter, it was all because of the female but if it is a crap litter, it is the males fault. Is that pretty close? There are a lot of crap producers when it comes to bitches. Either one can be the cause. As far as the sex, the male doesn't have the higher deciding factor, he is the factor.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

This is kind of interesting to me. I'm no expert, far from it. It's just that you are the first breeder that I've ever heard of that charges more after x number of pups. So how many 12 to 15 pup litters did your dogs have? I see you advertise on your website that you have a couple litters a year. I looked thru a lot of the pics you had posted on there, but all I saw was what seemed like 5 or 6 pup litters. Seems like it would have been a great thing to show on your website.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I didn't know there were that many pictures of litters on the website. Ten to 12 is probably the average at birth but you have to keep in mind, these are not the typical bred dogs and the losses were high for part of the generations. The 10th generation dogs are running about 11 pups. As far as never hearing of charging extra for pups after the normal #, you have to remember, business is business. It may vary from person to person because it is about negotiation. As one person said, the market will dictate the price. What a person has to offer is what may or may not create that market. Actually , I stole the idea from show breeders because it was the only thing I agreed with. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Don, you have hit on the quintesential problem with dog people, and by no means am I making fun of Skip.

THEY HAVE NO EXPERIENCE, AND DO NOT PRODUCE LITTER AFTER LITTER TO GET THAT EXPERIENCE.

Back in the late 80's or early 90's there was a GSD stud whose main claim to fame was that he produced really large litters.

I had so many people tell me what a crock it was that he made any difference at all. They kept saying the bitch determines the amount of puppies.

When I see small litters, I am often compelled to ask how many they culled, as I see 2 or 3 pups as rediculous. Even 4 is retarded. Something is weird there. Smallest I have ever had is 1, but I culled 9. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Just out of curiosity, what is the average # of pups in a litter of GSD's. as opposed to what would be a large litter? Seems if 8 pups is a large litter for some breeds that may explain why the practice has never been heard of in those circles. I never kept a bitch that produced less than 8 pups. I also can't count on both hands the number of breeders I know that will not keep more than 8 pups even if 14 are born largely because they have found that 8 is the optimal # where all the pups will thrive and do well. I always watched for the best producers simply because I knew there would be losses due to the inbreeding. Had I not had such big litters as a norm, the line would have died of natural causes about 6 years ago. I have gotten rid of a number of poor producers and.....every one was the female.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don, you have hit on the quintesential problem with dog people, and by no means am I making fun of Skip.
> 
> THEY HAVE NO EXPERIENCE, AND DO NOT PRODUCE LITTER AFTER LITTER TO GET THAT EXPERIENCE.
> 
> ...


What does the fact that that I have not produced "litter after litter" have to do with my opinion that I've (along with others) never heard of charging more after x number of puppies? I agree that you can set whatever policy you want for your stud, it's just that I've never heard of it before. Since we have quite a few members here, are there others here that do this?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> What does the fact that that I have not produced "litter after litter" have to do with my opinion that I've (along with others) never heard of charging more after x number of puppies? I agree that you can set whatever policy you want for your stud, it's just that I've never heard of it before. Since we have quite a few members here, are there others here that do this?


Skip, it really isn't a big deal. There was a time that I had never heard of it before either and it is just an option that is easier to exercise if you offer something that no one else can. I also sell all pups without breeding rights with the understanding that they can pay for the breeding rights at a later date and I can switch the limited status to a full status. Another thing is anyone that gets both a male and a female can only get a full registration on one or the other. The way a person does their business is largely governed by what they are selling how they want to handle it. I don't choose to do it the way the majority does it because my needs are different. What I am selling, aside from dogs, is the opportunity to save 20 years of heavy culling to produce a consistent line. The immediate opportunity to see vigor in their first unrelated cross. I am selling the assurance that they will have a "clean" line which they will never get through assortive breeding.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

What do you all do who offer stud services if the bitch doesn't take? Do you provide a refund, offer another breeding, or do nothing at all?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

With people that I know I don't ask for the stud fee until there are at least 3 puppies born. I offer a "do-over" with the same bitch or another female owned or leased by them as long as the switched-bitch is a good female (character, etc.).


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

To us, it is also what the female's owner needs to do as well.

A repeat on the next breeding, but the female must have had a quantitative progesterone (thanks Diane!) done for the 1st time and also on the 2nd. We do not recommend smears or the progesterone that does the range. 

And let us know prior to the 1st breeding what her breeding and production history is. How has her weight been, Have you done a deep culture, has she had pyro before (some owners will not admit that, will not do a deep culture and want to do a live cover).

There is responsibility on the female's side as well as the male's.


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