# Bad nerves, and genetics why?



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

I may not be real accurate in what I am going to say, but it seems the more I read message boards the more the biggest problem in the dog world seems to be "bad nerve". And "bad nerves" it is believed, is caused by "bad Genetics". So case closed and most problems solved, right? Well, here is an article, with scientific sources, with other reasons, in fact a lot of other reason. 


I can't count how many times people on message boards have made this statement as you just did; "I have met many a skittish and overly shy, show dog, fear biter, pet, etc."

You then went on to say; "In most cases it is genetic and this trait is passed from generation to generation and should never be part of a breeding program" 

But you would have to know as much about the dogs early socialization, environment and training, as you do about the pedigree to correctly call it Genetics. You must take in both environment and training as well as pedigree to make that call. I personally have not seen that many of my customers raise their dogs. So without knowledge of how they did it I cannot say its Genetic.

That statement is only correct IF those are the only factors that cause skittishness, Right? No one ever talks about anything else? So genetics must be the main cause of 'bad nerve', right? Maybe not.

Prof. John Peters at the University of Arkansas in a study of over 600 dogs, to define "Genetic Instability" found that the early relationship with the mother, was the major factor in determining the confidence pups would have when they reached Maturity. "Mothers that weaned pups with deep gutteral growls and a punching like action of their nose to remove the pup from the teat, had pups that grew up fearful of humans and reactive to new environments." Source; "The Dogs Mind Chapter 10 Pg 149, 

Studies by Scott and Fuller at Bar Harbor Maine and by Wilson in Sweden have succinctly described how "nervous mothers can unwittingly imprint nervous behavior into their offspring, teaching nervous and excitable behavior."

So now to asses accurately the problem in these "nervy dogs" you have to know their pedigree, early environment, socialization, AND what kind of mother did they have.

Oh and if you don't mind? One more? Dr. Valerie O'Ferrell at the University of Edinburgh studied the influence of the puppy owners' personality, on the behavior of the adult dog. 

O'Ferrell found that the neurotic owner, because of their own greater anxiety, are likely to induce conflict and excitement that can lead to a variety of behavior problems, such as dominance aggression, fear biting, and timidity. A second independent study from Japan confirmed her findings.

Oh and speaking of Japan, one nutrition study done, found that withholding a specific protein 5 days before birth causes timidness and fear in mammals. 

So you also need to ask these skittish dog owners what they were feeding the mother, seems Ol Roy may have been a contributor to some of those bad nerved dogs you saw. You see there are just so many factors, and I have left off several, because I know this is getting very, verrrry boring, that there is no way a person after a lifetime in the dog world can tell any one else, in one visit, what made the dog "Nervy". In fact with so many contributing factors, if you conclude Genetics you are picking the mathematical least likely. 

But you may be much better read in this dog stuff than I, so I will certainly respect your comments.

One last thing as I said in the other post there are a plethora of people doing dogs but just a very few that know what they are doing with dogs. 

So if people get dogs from knowledgeable breeders they don't have to worry about GENETIC based fear because Genetically based fear manifests itself at 6 to 10 weeks of age and is characterized by three distinct behaviors. So as experienced, knowledgeable breeders I am sure Ya'll have already identified the problem pups and taken proper action, so you never raise a soft or skittish pup.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Excellent article and thoughts Butch! Maybe genetics, environment, nerve, exposure (lack thereof), and training are all multi-fauceted contributing factors in how dogs turn out?! Not sure we can ever really know.

I've always said "a breeder gives you the foundation and whatever you decided to build on that is totally up to YOU!" There is a responsibility that goes along with that as a owner/trainer! Some people are just looking for reasons to find excuses about dogs they don't/won't/can't train or understand. And using 'bad nerves' and genetics as the excuses for not putting in the sweat equity.](*,) What part does the owner/trainer play in this equation? Probably a higher percentage than most people are willing to admit!


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## steve davis (Mar 24, 2009)

in most cases i have seen in hasnt always been genetics. a lot had to do with OWNERS.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree, you can't spend a few minutes with someone elses dog and know everything about that dog.. I have to say there are alot of, IMO, bunk studies done also and most should be taken with a grain of salt.
The imprinting of the mothers temperament in the pups is the reason people think the mother gives more genetic material to the offspring. Of course they are going to act like the dog that raised them. The results of these studies are also skewed by how the set up is done. The basic environment the study was done in will give certain result in as much as swicthing to a different set up for that environment will yield different results. Nothing is absolute.
I raise pups with mom, dad, older sibs, and aunts. Mom can be delivering a pup and you will see an older sib sitting in the whelping box watching, or the male will be half in there admiring his handywork. The reality is, when pups are raised more to what nature meant them to be raised, the mothers spend very little time with the pups past the first couple of days. They cry, the mothers feed and simply check on them occassionally. My bitches are very rough on the pups during weaning and when she snaps at them, they run to dad and get behind him. In the end, if I want to take what a specific study had dertimined to be true, I have to accept the fact that their findings are going to be determinite on as many factors as bad nerves. Change the factors and you have changed the results of the study.
I firmly believe you can see skittishness early on before they are exposed to the environment outside the whelping box. This is why people spend so much time "socializing" the pups from day one.....but it won't change the basic nature of the dog when the pressure is on. It does cover them up well enough to sell them from an environment that is familiar to the pup. Of course all of my opinions were formed doing things my way which is going to yield very different results than when pups are raised in a normal human environment the way people perceive they should be raised.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Thanks for posting. Very interesting read... Leaves me with more questions than it answers, and is missing some key references. Of course some people can take a more nervy pup and make it look better as it develops, or the other way around! I prefer a confident, stable pup...


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that a nervy bitch would more than likely throw a crap load of nervy dogs as I believe it is the most common and easiest character trait to pass so anyone serious about working dogs would never buy a pup from a nervy bitch.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I thought it was pretty common knowledge that a nervy bitch would more than likely throw a crap load of nervy dogs as I believe it is the most common and easiest character trait to pass so anyone serious about working dogs would never buy a pup from a nervy bitch.


prolly genetic to.
Piss on the gibber jabber get your dogs and pups from reputable people. Reputable breeders don't breed nervy shitty dogs I think many PPD people do though.
I didn't finish the reading it:lol:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Great thread  Nice to see some people can still use their heads, and _their own_ personal powers of observation and insight to assess a situation, rather than repeating the same old "mantra" echoed elsewhere else to its fullest conviction.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> prolly genetic to.
> Piss on the gibber jabber get your dogs and pups from reputable people. Reputable breeders don't breed nervy shitty dogs I think many PPD people do though.
> I didn't finish the reading it:lol:


Mike it's nice to know someone feels about PP as I do Schutzjunk.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Good topic Butch. I have never thought "nerve bag dogs" to be solely from their genes. I think enviornment has lots to do with it too. Had never heard about the mother's treatment before though. Shows how much I know! Interested to see what others say. 

So, if there is a 6-8 wk old pup, and he runs away from a loud sudden noise, and doesn't recover quickly. Is he a product of bad genetics? At that age, he hasn't had too much time to be molded by a bad enviornment do you guys think?


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

At that age a pup has absolutely had plenty of time to be effected by the environment...and at their most imprintable age (at least that is the impression I am under)...isn't that why Mike does so much work with his puppies starting at a very early age?

If the puppy (2-4 weeks) sees that their Dam startles at noises, then I imagine that is going to have a huge effect on their nerves or perception of what they should or shouldn't startle at.

~Cate


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not only seeing their dam but when she carries them in pregnacy all her hormones and emotions are transferred to the pups.
Used to be an old saying about hunting a pregnate bitch would add to the pups. I think folks are starting to look at that a lot more seriously now. 
Don?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Interesting, but the "nervous pointer" studies indicate that nerves can be/are inheritable.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Mike it's nice to know someone feels about PP as I do Schutzjunk.


I can see ware you may have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to Schutzhund your dogs mother didn't engage the helper at the WSCA and was DQ'ed.
Now if it went for Schutzhund I wouldn't have this information I can remove this bitch from any consideration I might have when looking for a puppy.
Now if she were chasing the boogieman around the woods playing PPD I doubt I could get this information so readily available. 
So now since I wasn't at the WSCA I can ask someone who was provided they them selves understand what happened and can give me a honest assessment if I wanted one that is.


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Interesting, but the "nervous pointer" studies indicate that nerves can be/are inheritable.


I believe that as well...but the ornery, argumentative side of me wonders how much of that is observation of the mother on the part of the pups. I'm sure there are some studies out there....but I'd like to see studies where a nerve-bag male is taken to a rock solid female...and see how those dogs are at 3 years given a stable environment...I'd also like to see studies of litters out of nerve-bag mothers and how removing the pups from those mothers at an earlier age affects their ability to cope. Those kind of things just make me go hmmmm.....interesting! The genetics vs. environment question is one that interests me immensely. ~Cate


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have put pups from a sharp sharp mother on a rock steady bitch. Nothing across the board, but more than likely there was some that benefited from it.

The big thing is that you will never know, as it might have been the same as if they were raised with their mother. After all, they are not out in traffic or something where she got fired up all the time. She was fine around me, and the other dogs, just trippy around other people. She was unsafe, I should say, as she might love you to death, or try and dismember you.

her pedigree was real nice though. I was curious as the next to see what she could produce, and sorta chickened out, hence the other female.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Not only seeing their dam but when she carries them in pregnacy all her hormones and emotions are transferred to the pups.
> Used to be an old saying about hunting a pregnate bitch would add to the pups. I think folks are starting to look at that a lot more seriously now.
> Don?


Bob, I haven't got a clue if there is any truth to this stuff or not. I am a black and white type of guy and breeding has become an area of secret formulas and all kinds of BS. What has ruined the quality of dogs IMO, is that it has to be done politically correct, you have to do it for the good of the breed, you have to breed to titles instead of the dog, people have to be the total focus of the pup from the time he is born till they are as whacked out as we are. People ought to forget what others may think and ignore these magic potions that people come up with on a daily basis and breed dogs. It really isn't that hard to breed good solid dogs if a person "actually knows a good dog when he sees one". Stick to the basics. Start with good stock and be totally objective and cull what isn't up to par. Forget thinking you have to know genetics and all that. Animals in the wild never heard of genetics and they produce the stongest and healthiest few pups you will find. Pay attention to nature!!!! How many litters of coyotes or wolves have 100% survivability. Zero.....but the survivors are all keepers. Quit trying to devise fantastic methods and listen to mother nature....she has been producing the strongest healthiest pups for eons but we think we can do it better? Never happen.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Don! Good advice.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Don, I agree with you on many levels here, about politics, titles, or an almost religious emphasis on genetics (without fuller understanding what genes do/don't do, or with the "deterministic" slant). Your personal observation skills are more important than all that, and you bring them with you wherever you go. The results of your evaluations then become relative to your personal experience (what you've been exposed to), and the standards you've set, to put it all in perspective.

However, like Cate, I do share a great interest in the contemporary studies, for fuller understanding, and whatever advantages they might possibly bring. Somewhat related to this thread, is the topic of _phenotypic plasticity_. In a lot of cases, the phenotypic expression of particular genes are dependent on environmental triggers. Instances where the same genotype may provide alternative varying phenotypes, depending on environmental variance. Contrary to popular belief, _environment does impact heredity_ and consequentially, also genetics from a generational perspective. This, in effect, further blurs the line between _what is genetic and what is environmental._


>


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Like many things in life, *imprinting* DOES play a key part to how any animal gets through life. A great example is the Canada goose. If left alone, they will take over a community stormwater pond and the young will join them with mates in 3 years...

I also think genetics is still a factor. If this were not the case, why do most LE agencies purchase dogs from EU and not USA breeders/kennels? Why are so few show lines dogs working the streets in patrol aspects? In the lower county of Delaware, there is a heavy chicken raising industry around here. The local saying is, "You can't turn chicken sh%t into chicken salad." [-X


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl, there are many facetts of environment vs genes that I find fascinating. It is extremely apparent as you see pups that have great potential to leave their mark simply become a kennel dog because they didn't get place within a very specific time frame. Being yarded with multiple dogs is extremely beneficial to them as pups but quickly becomes detrimental if in the particular environment too long. What I see is that they still make great hunters but, that is natural for them and that is what they were bred to do and they will do that. When I see a dog with real potential for doing what is not natural, I know he has to be placed early. This is one reason I put so much emphasis on confidence. The more confidence a pup. displays means that window of opportunity is wider. Once the pup is on the ground, the genetics are what they are. It is all about environment after that.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

What intriques me also, is the subject of "good nerves, bad nerves" often comes up, but there seems to be no solid or commonly accepted definition of the term. So then, aside from the importance of distingquishing genetic/environmental causes from the breeder's perspective, too often "nerves" seem to be used in a subjective manner.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

So much about dogs is subjective. What is a good dog? Until there is a definitive answer to that then most everything else is going to be subjective.

Howard, look at genetics like the foundation to a building. The foundation is the most basic part of the structure even though you can't really see it, but it determines what and how much building can be put on it.


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