# open discussion on best dog to start with a new handler



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

There is a new handler in the group who bought a show line x garbage working gsd. That pup was a total shitter - ok nerve but zero prey drive. We even tried extreme prey building exercises that were working but it ultimately was too much effort vs potential results where expectations were fairly low anyway

This person is rehoming that pup and now has an opportunity to buy a new dog. He's definitely does not want a Malinois but is talking about Rottweiler, Dobies and GSDs.

The guys in the club have all suggested a good working GSD but I want to start an open discussion on the merits of each breed for a new handler who wants to do personal protection. That person's definition of a PPD is family companion that is stable, will light up on command, bite on command and out on command. 

I personally believe a good working rottweiler is perfect for such a thing but when you factor in a new handler who will inevitably makes mistakes, the GSD is the way to go. I also factor in the current location of Phoenix, AZ where it gets hotter than hell for four month out of the years. Rotts simply do not perfom well in extreme heat.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Chris, 

I think what your saying makes sence. IMO if he doesn't want a Mal then a GSD is really the only good option for his fist dog.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Chris,
> 
> I think what your saying makes sence. IMO if he doesn't want a Mal then a GSD is really the only good option for his fist dog.



I already told him what I think. He reads this board so I started this thread for him read and others in the future.

I think Malis can and should be discussed as well but we all know they are not good for beginners.


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## Guest (May 24, 2010)

Yorkie?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C1_vw24lZE&feature=related


Beagle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lg1XrgwrU0&feature=fvw


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

First off no dog does really well in extreme heat regardless of breed. 

Second for a new handler and the ever changing definition of PPD I wouldn't recommend a Rottweiler.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

GSDs are far more forgiving of handler error and are willing to do anything their master ask of them. I love my GSDs. I share my home with GSDs, Rotts, Dobies, and a Mal - just basic training alone seems to be so very simple with a GSD. These boys would try to tare the moon from the sky if I asked them too. 

The Mal would be my second choice (even if they are ruled out). The drive to work is just always there waiting to go. They are very affectionate to their handler- but have a tendancey to act first and think later making them a bit more advanced.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> There is a new handler in the group who bought a show line x garbage working gsd. That pup was a total shitter - ok nerve but zero prey drive. We even tried extreme prey building exercises that were working but it ultimately was too much effort vs potential results where expectations were fairly low anyway
> 
> This person is rehoming that pup and now has an opportunity to buy a new dog. He's definitely does not want a Malinois but is talking about Rottweiler, Dobies and GSDs.
> 
> ...


I bet Gerry thinks my bitch would be a great new handler dog.\\/


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> There is a new handler in the group who bought a show line x garbage working gsd. That pup was a total shitter - ok nerve but zero prey drive. We even tried extreme prey building exercises that were working but it ultimately was too much effort vs potential results where expectations were fairly low anyway.



Chris,

This isn't only for you, BUT I'm always amused when a "trainer" can't come up with a way to train/motivate a particular dog,
The dog is always a "shitter". Not, sorry I don't have the skills or experience to train this dog


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> This isn't only for you, BUT I'm always amused when a "trainer" can't come up with a way to train/motivate a particular dog,
> The dog is always a "shitter". Not, sorry I don't have the skills or experience to train this dog



LOL. You haven't seen the dog. We could always wait until the dog is a bit older and train him in Defense but that's no fun for either party.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I bet Gerry thinks my bitch would be a great new handler dog.\\/


Not necessarily, but in my limited experience I have never been impressed much by any female dog in an aggression situation.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I have never before agreed with a whole thread but in this case everyone so far is right.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> This isn't only for you, BUT I'm always amused when a "trainer" can't come up with a way to train/motivate a particular dog,
> The dog is always a "shitter". Not, sorry I don't have the skills or experience to train this dog


He said its a show line BYB shepherd you don't shoot pool with a rope why do bite sport with a shitter.
Ive seen dozens of people come to our club with this shit and want to do Schutzhund. Most of the time getting them to bite would involve some sort abuse to the animal why wast everyone's time and efforts cause some mofo wants to do something but doesn't have the requirements.
Tell your buddy to get a working line German Shepherd


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Okay...I'll throw this in.....

I had (still have) a Bloodhound before I got my first Mal. (had multiple pet dogs before that) 

*IF *this person is *serious and dedicated to follow through* and he has good people around him to teach him, why couldn't he start with a Mal? (besides the fact that he was told "no" or he doesn't want one)

We ALL had to start somewhere, and at a point in time we ALL had a FIRST working line dog, regardless of breed. And, there are some great breeders out there that are really good at matching good quality working pups to handlers. 

I don't promote the Mal as a first dog......but why not discuss this part of it?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll agree with Mike on this.
Yes, you can find the key to train any dog, good or bad nerves, high or low prey but the methods aren't worth the effort for these types of dogs. Maybe for a sheltered house pet but not for sport or work.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> He said its a show line BYB shepherd you don't shoot pool with a rope why do bite sport with a shitter.
> Ive seen dozens of people come to our club with this shit and want to do Schutzhund. Most of the time getting them to bite would involve some sort abuse to the animal why wast everyone's time and efforts cause some mofo wants to do something but doesn't have the requirements.
> Tell your buddy to get a working line German Shepherd


It's a puppy (although Chris didn't say the exact age). It isn't only about the sport. It should also be about doing the best you can with the dog you've got. It's about using a little imagination
and not dismissing a less then ideal dog. I was told by self proclaimed schutzhund experts that my first working Dobermann
"would never pass an impartiality test" before she passed her BH. I left that club and never looked back. Dubheasa Germania went on to be HOT SchH III and Mondio Ring Brevet and several other titles. What's the challenge in doing Schutzhund with a working line GSD?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I can't speak for everyone, but wouldn't it be more fun to succeed with a dog that is suited for the venue the first time around? Maybe leave the challange until you have trained a dog or two.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Okay...I'll throw this in.....
> 
> I had (still have) a Bloodhound before I got my first Mal. (had multiple pet dogs before that)
> 
> ...


They ain't called maligators for nothing not saying this is the case but what if there's little kids in the house not sure what your pup was like but the litters I've been around are like piranhas the good ones ain't for everybody or there family life.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Adam Rawlings said:


> I can't speak for everyone, but wouldn't it be more fun to succeed with a dog that is suited for the venue the first time around? Maybe leave the challange until you have trained a dog or two.


Adam,

What's really fun is succeeding with a dog that the "experts" tell you isn't suited for the sport 
Trialing well is the best revenge.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> They ain't called maligators for nothing not saying this is the case but what if there's little kids in the house not sure what your pup was like but the litters I've been around are like piranhas the good ones ain't for everybody or there family life.


I understand that part too. But there are other dogs of different breeds that are not suited for family life or for just anyone. 
I met a little fuzzy GSD pup at the FR trial that was a biting machine this weekend......the handler managed him very well around his two young children.......

My first pup, not good, and still not real good with young fast kids....manageable issue and have not had an incident with her, ever in 4.5 yrs. 
Ash loves kids, but is a bit pushy but has not ever put her mouth on them as I never let her, so I manage that as well. 

With all dogs, if there is family involved, you have to teach what you want from not only the dog, but the family members as well.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's a puppy (although Chris didn't say the exact age). It isn't only about the sport. It should also be about doing the best you can with the dog you've got. It's about using a little imagination
> and not dismissing a less then ideal dog. I was told by self proclaimed schutzhund experts that my first working Dobermann
> "would never pass an impartiality test" before she passed her BH. I left that club and never looked back. Dubheasa Germania went on to be HOT SchH III and Mondio Ring Brevet and several other titles. What's the challenge in doing Schutzhund with a working line GSD?


My first dog was a shitter Rottweiler we/I titled him to Schutzhund III he had good strong nerve but missing the sharp edge. We worked our asses off every one did got several high in protections and trial.
Piss on that I'll never be with out my Shepherds.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Adam,
> 
> What's really fun is succeeding with a dog that the "experts" tell you isn't suited for the sport
> Trialing well is the best revenge.


I'm sure it's very rewarding, but how many people are fortunate enough or lucky to have their dog actually work out?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> My first dog was a shitter Rottweiler we/I titled him to Schutzhund III he had good strong nerve but missing the sharp edge. We worked our asses off every one did got several high in protections and trial.
> Piss on that I'll never be with out my Shepherds.


Different Strokes for different Folks 
I enjoy a challenge. I have a 9 month old GSD, I'm doing
Mondio Ring with. I do Schutzhund with Dobermanns.
Doing Schutzhund with a GSD is NO challenge LOL


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Different Strokes for different Folks
> I enjoy a challenge. I have a 9 month old GSD, I'm doing
> Mondio Ring with. I do Schutzhund with Dobermanns.
> Doing Schutzhund with a GSD is NO challenge LOL


I walk on the field with 300 points I like to try and keep as many as I can :mrgreen:


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Mike,

I raised a Mal around two small kids. The dog has to mind and is great with my kids. You just have to tether the dog to something to allow the kids to play with the pup. The puppy will learn to play nice or the kids just walk away from the puppy.

I set firm boundaries with the pup. The worse problem was when the kids were throwing balls or kicking balls. Now, I had to use some hard corrections but he learned quick not to grab balls or take things from my kids. I had to buy some new soccer balls from them being punctured, but he finally learned especially as he matured.

I think a Malinois makes a great family pet, especially if you take the time to train them in house manners. My Mal lets my kids do anything to him and is not bothered one bit by the punishment they dish out to him. His pain tolerance is extremely high. My kids step on him, pull on his hair, grab him, etc.. They are kids and you can not see every minute with them. My 4 year old daughter bit his ear hard when I was not looking. The dog did nothing. The dog constantly watches over my kids when they are outside playing. He will walk around with them and stays by them. It is the same thing at the park. He is always with them and keeping watch.

I really think it is a shame that more people do not take the time to raise a Malinois as a family dog but instead stick them out in kennels. It says a lot about a trainer if they can not get a dog to mind in the house and have to crate or kennel the dog because they can not manage the dog in the house. My Mal is about the most loyal and affectionate dog that I've had. A lot of people do not realize that the Mals enjoy being with their families as much as they do working. I am sure that there are other owners or breeders of Mals on this list with dogs who live freely in the house, not in a crate but with them that you will tell you the same thing

You just hear about them being fire breathers and super dogs but you miss out on the whole other side of the breed. They are big mushy dogs who love their families and enjoy being part of the family structure. You get the best of both worlds. You can have a great working dog and a great family dog. You just have to teach the dog how to be a great family dog. It is the same as any other kind of training and the Mal as a breed loves to please.

**I'm not saying that the Mal is a good dog for everyone, but if you are willing to learn how train the dog or already have a good foundation in training than the breed is hard to beat. As puppies, the good ones will make you look like hamburger and shred a few pants but it is only for a short period of time. It is like anything else worth the effort, it takes time but the rewards are a great dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> I'm sure it's very rewarding, but how many people are fortunate enough or lucky to have their dog actually work out?


What's "fortune" got to do with it?

As Carol Boche says, we all have to start somewhere. Our first was a white and black Newf (Landseer), an excellent guard dog with tons of confidence, nearly twice my size, and I had to jump in at the deep end but I made him manageable.

If the chap's in your club, it would be easy to tell him to go look at a few good breeders - maybe someone go with him and look at GSDs, Malis, etc. At 7-8 weeks' old, it should be possible to make most pups into manageable dogs. And you're all there to help him.

I know a number of Malinois and working GSDs that live in families with young children. Just around the corner a couple with 3 young children have a Tervueren, Malinois and Dutch Shepherd. Another girl in the village who doesn't do sport but is with the Bahnhofpolizei has a very well mannered Malinois from a sports breeder and she's just had a baby and the dog is no problem.

It seems to be a fashion today to say "I can't keep my dog in the house", trying to imply that one has one helluva monster on the end of the lead.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Imo it is not only the handler and the dog but the backup they have.If you start with a willing handler and a half decent dog then you still need someone to show them what to do. In Europe it is almost without saying that an experienced clubmember helps out a starting handler because there always will be problems and the club gains a lot of valuable time by fixing small things before they become big problems.
It is also frowned upon if a new handler works the dog at home until they know what they are doing.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Imo it is not only the handler and the dog but the backup they have.If you start with a willing handler and a half decent dog then you still need someone to show them what to do. In Europe it is almost without saying that an experienced clubmember helps out a starting handler because there always will be problems and the club gains a lot of valuable time by fixing small things before they become big problems.
> It is also frowned upon if a new handler works the dog at home until they know what they are doing.


Hard to speak about other clubs but that's how we handle new people and there dogs also sort of teach them how to play and punish stay away from methods the club doesn't use o condone.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It seems to be a fashion today to say "I can't keep my dog in the house", trying to imply that one has one helluva monster on the end of the lead.


I could not agree more with this statement. There are no monsters at the end of the leash, just owners who do not know how to train the dog to behave in the house.

I do not know if it is an American phenomenon but everyone thinks it is okay to keep the dog in the crate most of the day and the crazy thing is that they think it is cruel to tether the dog outside. I would rather see a dog tied outside then sitting in a crate.

One of the problems that I see with most dogs is that they are treated like people which can only lead to problems and allowed a no boundaries life. A happy dog knows the boundaries and is content knowing his/her place. If you are reading Don's thread on using Koehler method, you can read about the change in his dog. The dog is finding happiness in knowing where he fits in the structure of Don's life.

I use a crate when raising a puppy if I can not watch the dog. It is useful for preventing accidents in the house but it is just a training tool and not a permeant solution. I want the dog out with me so that I can encourage good behavior and correct bad ones. The more time you spend with the dog in the house teaching and working with him/her then the better dog you will have. If you kennel them or crate them all the time, you miss out on owning a dog and really the dog will not see you as the leader. You may be able to work him/'her on a field but this does not mean that you are the dog's leader/master.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What's "fortune" got to do with it?quote]
> 
> I've mentioned before that the club I train at has several off breeds that come week after week and have made very little progress. It's definitely not a lack of effort on the trainer or decoys part, some of the dogs just don't have the drive. I kind of think a trainer with an off breed dog training in sport would be fortunate, if that dog worked out.
> 
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fortunate


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jack Roberts said:


> I could not agree more with this statement. There are no monsters at the end of the leash, just owners who do not know how to train the dog to behave in the house.
> 
> I do not know if it is an American phenomenon but everyone thinks it is okay to keep the dog in the crate most of the day and the crazy thing is that they think it is cruel to tether the dog outside. I would rather see a dog tied outside then sitting in a crate.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on the kennel thing (my dogs, including my two Mals, are house dogs). But how are you missing out on owning the dog if the dog is in a crate while you're at work? On a Saturday afternoon if we're at home and not out at training, the often dogs take their afternoon nap in their crates of their own accord. I'd rather a dog be crated where it will likely just sleep or rest the day away and then be stoked when you come home to train or go out and have some fun instead of the frustration of being tied out or in a kennel where some dogs will just burn calories pacing (though granted, I know there are some dogs who are hysterical in a crate or who are crate spinners). Plus it makes them used to the crate during training so they are not barking their fool heads off the entire time. Just most of the time. ;-)


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## Guest (May 25, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> I understand that part too. But there are other dogs of different breeds that are not suited for family life or for just anyone.
> I met a little fuzzy GSD pup at the FR trial that was a biting machine this weekend......the handler managed him very well around his two young children.......
> 
> My first pup, not good, and still not real good with young fast kids....manageable issue and have not had an incident with her, ever in 4.5 yrs.
> ...


I agree. 

I also don't think a Mal is out of the question for a first working dog for someone who enjoys high energy fast thinking dogs. But if you end up with the wrong Mal or the wrong *anything* for that matter, life with the dog is gonna suck. The posts referring to people's own dogs growing up around kids don't really apply to the breed as a whole and shouldn't be considered as such. Dogs are individuals. Some will be fine around children, some will not and it is not necessarily a training issue. Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't. While the human component plays a significant part in how a puppy will end up, genetics has mighty and deep roots. In any litter regardless of the pedigree you may find pups that are genetically more "dog" than others. 

The handler in question has to decide what kind of *general* temperament is best suited to his/ her life and training experience and go from there. I think a suitable adolescent green dog of whatever breed that has been raised in a home environment might be a good option to keep in mind. That way you have a good idea what you're getting into and the dog is not a reactive kennel nutcase.

What happens if the Mal puppy doesn't work out for sport, does it just get tossed aside for the next prospect after the owner realizes he has a sometimes missile on a string he can't train that now has no "applicable skills?" Mal energy and speed is not suitable for everyone's lifestyle and the wrong Mal with an inexperienced trainer is going to be a train wreck with increased potential for collateral damage. 

IMO, and I know some will disagree, for the average working home I don't think it has as much to do with a dog's potential ability to compete in sports as much as it has to do with a dog fitting into your life and finding some balance with the sport stuff. A truly "good one" will be great in the home and in the field and won't be a nightmare to train in either.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Gillian Schuler said:
> 
> 
> > What's "fortune" got to do with it?quote]
> ...


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Thank you all for the input. I'm who Chris is talking about. This might be long but I want to be thorough 

I have no experience with working dogs prior to the last couple months. right now I am not looking for a title or to do sport work. Like Chris said I would like a dog that will be obedience trained, protective, "light up" on command, bite if necessary, & out on command. I know that is a lot of work & i'm willing to put in the time & effort. Thats not a question. The pup will be sitting in my office with me during the day at work & I train with the group 3-4 days a week.
I live alone in a house with a back yard, no kids, no plans for kids, & aside from the random friend that stops by, i'm pretty solitary. not alot of traffic in my house.
i have always wanted a trained dog & unfortunately I jumped in with out doing the research on a dog I bought. He's a GREAT family dog but like Chris stated he had zero drive. we tried for 2 months & I did work everyday at home. He might come out of it but at this point advise from multiple people, couple outside the group, its not likely going to happen.

Heres the kicker.
Im kinda picky about what I want. after all Im looking for a dog for the next 10+ years. 
A GSD thats decent size & as traditional saddle back look as I can find.
A rottweiler with a docked tale. I found alot with tails. 
A doberman with docked tail & ears.
no mal. nothing personal but not the dog Im looking for.

I have a couple choices right now. this breeding is the one i was going with. Unfortunately I'm now hearing that this might not be the best chances of getting a working dog. Please take a look & let me know your opinion 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/rottweiler/breeding.result?fadir=939505&modir=939501

I know asking a lot but why settle for something not completely happy with. Again thanks for the input.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I agree with you on the kennel thing (my dogs, including my two Mals, are house dogs). But how are you missing out on owning the dog if the dog is in a crate while you're at work? On a Saturday afternoon if we're at home and not out at training, the often dogs take their afternoon nap in their crates of their own accord. *I'd rather a dog be crated where it will likely just sleep or rest the day away and then be stoked when you come home to train or go out and have some fun instead of the frustration of being tied out or in a kennel where some dogs will just burn calories pacing (though granted, I know there are some dogs who are hysterical in a crate or who are crate spinners).* Plus it makes them used to the crate during training so they are not barking their fool heads off the entire time. Just most of the time. ;-)


My take on this is, if you need a crate/cage for a dog because you are otherwise busy, then maybe one is too busy for a dog. Cages are often nothing more than a fashion for people to keep dogs with little to no input into them... just think how would all the crate folks cope if you took away their precious cages ? They may have to teach house manners or simply I bet, plenty wouldn't keep a dog for long. Just my opinion, not a fan of the crate brigade.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

jeremy anderson said:


> Heres the kicker.
> Im kinda picky about what I want. after all Im looking for a dog for the next 10+ years.
> A GSD thats decent size & as traditional saddle back look as I can find.
> A rottweiler with a docked tale. I found alot with tails.
> ...



SO, if you found the dog you wanted, but it did not meet your "looks" criteria, would you buy it? 

Sometimes the right dog with the wrong "outside" comes along for people and they pass it up.....not sure why, it is not the look of the dog that makes them a good working dog.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> SO, if you found the dog you wanted, but it did not meet your "looks" criteria, would you buy it?
> 
> Sometimes the right dog with the wrong "outside" comes along for people and they pass it up.....not sure why, it is not the look of the dog that makes them a good working dog.


no. I had a good opportunity to buy two great working rott pups for a decent price but they had a tail. I know it sounds petty but I have to be completely happy with my choice. If I can't find that dog I'm looking for than I'll settle with the best I can find when that time comes. until then I'll keep looking


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

rotties seem work better with a tail.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> rotties seem work better with a tail.


Is that what happened last night. the one without a tail :razz: lol j/k


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## Guest (May 25, 2010)

jeremy anderson said:


> no. I had a good opportunity to buy two great working rott pups for a decent price but they had a tail. I know it sounds petty but I have to be completely happy with my choice. If I can't find that dog I'm looking for than I'll settle with the best I can find when that time comes. until then I'll keep looking


Yes, that is petty and silly. Picking a working dog based on color and the lack of a tail is not smart. But its your money and your life so if you have to have it then I hope you find the perfect dog. Isn't there a good Rott breeder on here? Windywoodsrotts or something?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> rotties seem work better with a tail.


And what do you base that brain storm on? :?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> And what do you base that brain storm on? :?



balance.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> Is that what happened last night. the one without a tail :razz: lol j/k


no, letting you handle my dog when you have zero experience, low confidence while dealing with a dog that was telling you to **** off is why he didn't work for you. I'll let you handle him again so you can learn. He's good for that.

I've seen lots of rotties work and the ones with tails are more balanced. Not in temperment or workability but athleticism. It's purely anecdotal on my part but I see what I see. IF I ever got another rott, it would have a tail.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I've got tailed and docked. Have yet to see any difference with jumps, retrieves or blinds between the two. 

I suppose if I needed them to walk a tight-rope I might give the advantage to the tailed but for schutzhund it makes no difference.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I've got tailed and docked. Have yet to see any difference with jumps, retrieves or blinds between the two.
> 
> I suppose if I needed them to walk a tight-rope I might give the advantage to the tailed but for schutzhund it makes no difference.



swimming is another aspect where a tail would be handy. Not everybody lives in a schH world.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeremy, 

What are the parents like on the rott puppies you are interested in?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> swimming is another aspect where a tail would be handy. Not everybody lives in a schH world.


Wow other than that ever popular Rottweiler sport of "dock diving" I didn't realize we had competitive "swimming" events that you say a tail would help. What about snow skiing? :roll:


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Marren,

I agree with Maggie about crates. My dog is left out all the time, even when I'm gone for 8-10 hours. Of course I test the dog at first by leaving for only shorter periods of time. If you stay on a dog and keep them on a leash or e-collar while there out in the house, you can make a well behaved dog out of them. You just do not allow them to do the things you do not want them to do an correct them firmly for bad behavior. There is no running in the house or pacing. The dog goes to their place when I tell them, etc... 

I slowly let my dogs have more and more time out in the house. Usually, I had most of my dogs running free in my house by 7 months old. They were not tearing up anything, having accidents or any other problems. My Mal had to wait until a little over a year old. He would have been fine earlier but I did not want to chance making a mistake. Once a Mal learns something one time it is hard work to undo it. I have had a few rescue dogs that were older who I trained to have house manners. These dogs had just been on the streets. It just takes consistency. 

I am like Maggie and do not buy into the crate philosophy as the doggie den. My dog is always ready to work. All I have to do is pick up the ball or head outside and he is ready no matter what time of day or if I've been giving him attention. It seems really cruel to me when people crate their dogs so that they will have drive for work. A good dog will have the drive for work, no matter what. If the dog does not have the drive, then do not mess with him/her.

I think that the dogs that are crated are not able to stretch and move about properly. I know my dog sleeps a lot of the time when I'm gone but he still gets up and checks out the house and moves around. I would rather see a dog kenneled outside or tethered instead of a crate.

I think the main problem is that people have forgot how to train dogs to behave and have manners in the house. This is one good thing that Koehler and the Monks of New Skete teach. I consider myself a motivational trainer but with house manners it is not motivational but very black and white for the dog. You do something wrong and the you get corrected. The dogs once they learn to behave seem to be very relaxed, since they know their place and understand what is expected of them.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Wow other than that ever popular Rottweiler sport of "dock diving" I didn't realize we had competitive "swimming" events that you say a tail would help. What about snow skiing? :roll:



ever send your dog across a river for a bite? there's no use in debating. We both know that Rotties are among the worst of the working breeds in bite sports.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

If I thought there was no hope for the breed or they wouldn't work I wouldn't have one. There is no "we" in this equation. Just because you can't manage to title one doesn't mean everyone else can't.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> If I thought there was no hope for the breed or they wouldn't work I wouldn't have one. There is no "we" in this equation. Just because you can't manage to title one doesn't mean everyone else can't.



lol don't start with me. I know you have nice dogs but I'd go head to head with you an my rottie any day. You haven't seen him work. He's no street dog but is a grood sport dog.



have a good day.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Vin Chiu said:


> Yes, that is petty and silly. Picking a working dog based on color and the lack of a tail is not smart. But its your money and your life so if you have to have it then I hope you find the perfect dog. Isn't there a good Rott breeder on here? Windywoodsrotts or something?


If you went truck shopping & you found a truck that will do what you need it to but was pink or purple would you buy it? probably not. you would keep looking around till you found the exact one you wanted. 
why settle for something you won't be 100% happy with.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> no, letting you handle my dog when you have zero experience, low confidence while dealing with a dog that was telling you to **** off is why he didn't work for you. I'll let you handle him again so you can learn. He's good for that.
> 
> I've seen lots of rotties work and the ones with tails are more balanced. Not in temperment or workability but athleticism. It's purely anecdotal on my part but I see what I see. IF I ever got another rott, it would have a tail.


I was just joking. 
I know what he can do. he's an awesome dog.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> Jeremy,
> 
> What are the parents like on the rott puppies you are interested in?


what i've been told
the sire was "beat down" in training before this guy got him so working he didnt impress a whole lot. His littermates were good workers though.

the dam wasnt a very good worker. not sure about her littermates.

I dont know the dogs & couldnt tell if i did. just going off what training group has said.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

jeremy anderson said:


> If you went truck shopping & you found a truck that will do what you need it to but was pink or purple would you buy it? probably not. you would keep looking around till you found the exact one you wanted.
> why settle for something you won't be 100% happy with.


Looks of a dog (or truck) don't make me happy, it is the drives, workability and willingness to do the job.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

jeremy anderson said:


> what i've been told
> the sire was "beat down" in training before this guy got him so working he didnt impress a whole lot. His littermates were good workers though.
> 
> the dam wasnt a very good worker. not sure about her littermates.
> ...


You already got rid of a dog that wasn't bred for the job, and now you want to go with one that is not out of proven parents. LOL Why???

I am seeing this a lot in our local club. Every one is breeding dogs with no titles, no hip x rays, no workability, they love their dogs great, but should they keep breeding mediocre dogs to mediocre dogs and expect great hard hitting high drive dogs?? Selling off dogs to pet people, these dogs don't end up doing sport work because the parents aren't good at it. OR Then new people come out and watch other dogs work and expect their new pups to do the same. 

It is very sad for the dogs, who have to try to work to these peoples expectations. Also sad for the sport (pick your flavor) for people to start out with the wrong dog and become frustrated and quit after spending a lot of time and in some cases money.

You don't bred a pig to a pig and get a thoroughbred.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> Looks of a dog (or truck) don't make me happy, it is the drives, workability and willingness to do the job.


cool. 
for me I have to be 100% happy & looks have to do with that.



Sherry Spivey said:


> You already got rid of a dog that wasn't bred for the job, and now you want to go with one that is not out of proven parents. LOL Why???
> Im STILL looking. I pointed out that was an option.
> 
> I am seeing this a lot in our local club. Every one is breeding dogs with no titles, no hip x rays, no workability, they love their dogs great, but should they keep breeding mediocre dogs to mediocre dogs and expect great hard hitting high drive dogs?? Selling off dogs to pet people, these dogs don't end up doing sport work because the parents aren't good at it. OR Then new people come out and watch other dogs work and expect their new pups to do the same.
> ...


Im STILL looking. I pointed out that was an option.

I am not the expert here. all of you are. 
Im simply asking for opinions.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Looks of a dog (or truck) don't make me happy, it is the drives, workability and willingness to do the job.


Spoken from a gal who owns a Blood Hound


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I would look for an older dog. You could find a green dog that you like the way he looks and test him, since the dog is older it is not as big of a gamble. At least you have a club and group of people willing to help you.

I think you are making a mistake about looking at how the dog looks. If you want a true worker then you have to look at how the dog's temperament and drive are exhibited. People see the mastiff breeds and like the way they look and expect them to be great guard dogs, just based on looks. They end up with unhealthy dogs that are not true guard dogs.

In the end, it is your dog and your choice.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Spoken from a gal who owns a Blood Hound


Hey, my BH is handsome AND does the job (nothing else like LISTEN though)!!! LOL 
I will admit, I have been lucky in the looks department with all the dogs, but that is not what I picked them for......they just grew up to be cool. LOL


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the advise. I am still looking around & the group I am learning from is still helping me look. I will post when I find something definate for me. Thanks


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Am I slow or something - you've just posted you're getting a Rottweiler pup and asking for names?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

that's the thing Gillian. We're (meaning the guys Jeremy trains with) are trying to convince him that he should go with a nice working shepherd for his first "real" dog.

I know the breeder he wants to get the rottie pup from. He's a friend and as much as I'd love for him to sell a puppy, I've known the parents for the past two years. Neither one of them works well at all. They are great dogs, great temperament, family companions and would do well in the show ring. 

I've told Jeremy this so I have no problem saying it in public. I think he's enamored with Rotts right now because he sees my Rottie work, loves his temperament and then met Jim Laubmeier's big ass rottie. (gorgeous dog with the perfect temperament) So now he's trying to convince himself that Rotts are way to go. He spoke with the pretty who is pretty sure his dogs will work. Knowing the parents of the pup he wants, all of us in the club are telling him not to chance it. As one guy in the club said, a pup from that litter might be the best working dog in the world but he wouldn't bet on it. Then he follows up with, "you couldn't give me one of those puppies for free."

I'm glad Jeremy is keeping his options open. We like having him around and he's shown tremendous dedication by coming out to learn without a dog. 

Now if he'd just get a billy badass GSD all would be right in the world.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Is Jeremy adult?


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## Wendy Schmitt (Apr 29, 2009)

I think it absolutely comes down to the the genetics not the breed. As someone who has titled Mal, GSD , and Dobies all HOT to SchH3 it comes down to the pedigree and the breeder knowing their s*&t. The dog MUST come from working lines! I know in Arizona as far as Dobes are concerned you are in "Euro Show" country with a buch of oversized animals not bred for the sport. I like shepherds, but I will never own another. I enjoy the tempermants and cleverness I find in the other breeds among other atributes like less hair ;-)
It is more about finding dogs that are actually bred for the work than a paticular breed. I find those that those who say only GSD have never seen a true working line dobe or rottie for that matter. Yes a mal can do it too...but then you have to live with them, and that is not for everyone.
Lets not forget with a GSD the dogs has to pass hips, elbows and hope the back is OK. 
It's about the genetics......not the breed.

Wendy Schmitt


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Is Jeremy adult?


I'm really sorry, but I just choked on my coffee......:razz:

While it is nice to see that he is keeping his options open.....I find myself having deja vu.....too many people I have worked with or talked to have the same, "well, they have to look like this" first attitude. 

It is sad to see them get the perfect "looking" dog, only to hear that they are trying to place it in a new home 6 months down the road since it did not have the drives to do the job.....and that was obvious when they picked the pup out. 
They asked for advice and help, received it and then did what they wanted to do anyway......it got to the point for me to be a real waste of time. 

I feel sorry for the dogs when it comes to things like this.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

No matter Carol -:smile: the spit didn't reach me

The Internet is great but it has created, for the dog sport at least, many problems. Before the Internet, you asked around, went to look at litters, decided on a good breeder of eventually the breed of your choice and set to work with the pup you bought.

What's happened is, is to me not understandable. 

The only way for me to choose a pup to work with is, first of all the breed. I chose after my Briard between Malinois, GSD and Giant Schanuzer. I chose the GSD not from reading on the Internet but because I had trained in GSD Clubs and in the end decided I was fixed on the GSD working lines of which I saw plenty.
The only person who "pushed" me away from a Giant Schanuzer was a colleague who said "you've worked a French Shepherd - you'll never be happy with a Giant Schnauzer" and OH said "what the Giant Schnauzer people have tried in IPO, you've seen - don't think you are better than they are."

Facit: no one can tell you what breed to buy - you have to go out and watch and ask questions on the field and not just on the Internet.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

"Tell your buddy to get a working line German Shepherd"

getting a working line GS is just the beginning of it. I got one of those and what a lot of WORK it is. She doesn't have the drive. Good hard bite when she gets to the sleeve. but hard to get her attention on me w/ minimal ball, food, and prey drive. we are working to build "confidence". Does make a SUPER pet and could do herding and likes tracking.Will admit I didn't know much when I bought her, but expected (probably like a lot of dumb newbies) if I got a working line it would actually like working. was i wrong!

I'm in the position where I hate to keep spending more $ on training lessons, but I want to LEARN and she's okay to learn w/, great to live w. This way my trainers also get to know me and what I need and hopefuly will help me w/ getting my next dog. I know I'll learn alot as a new handler w/ her. And hopefully learn what I really want in a better working dog.

Don't want a high energy dog, but more energy than what she's got. Have multiple dogs that run loose in my large yard and are very often w/ horses (non dog agressive) .. work w/ trainer in schutzhund, agility, rally obed w/ my GSD bitch. If someone has something or ideas, let me know, too! I'm looking forward to the day when I get a dog w/ more drive. Even then it is still a commitment to bring along a working dog.

PS. noticed one post you said you wanted traditional saddle back look? isn't that a show line trait? stick to what you want IN the dog, not what's on the outside. color should be your last consideration. but if you get one that is the color you prefer, it's a bonus.

Donna


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Sherry Spivey said:


> I am seeing this a lot in our local club. Every one is breeding dogs with no titles, no hip x rays, no workability, they love their dogs great, but should they keep breeding mediocre dogs to mediocre dogs and expect great hard hitting high drive dogs?? Selling off dogs to pet people, these dogs don't end up doing sport work because the parents aren't good at it. OR Then new people come out and watch other dogs work and expect their new pups to do the same..


yes, this is really really sad for the breed. exactly...when I saw how real dogs and other pups work ... I could see the difference ... but then again, how many working homes are there really? this is why some breeders justify breeding "pet quality?" and dont' have stringent enough requirements on their breeding stock? And others that produce consistent great working lines have no trouble selling those?
thanks,
D


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Am I slow or something - you've just posted you're getting a Rottweiler pup and asking for names?


yes I jumped the gun a bit. I WAS really excited about the chance to get that pup till I talked to everyone about it.



Chris Michalek said:


> that's the thing Gillian. We're (meaning the guys Jeremy trains with) are trying to convince him that he should go with a nice working shepherd for his first "real" dog.
> 
> I've told Jeremy this so I have no problem saying it in public. I think he's enamored with Rotts right now because he sees my Rottie work, loves his temperament and then met Jim Laubmeier's big ass rottie. (gorgeous dog with the perfect temperament) So now he's trying to convince himself that Rotts are way to go. He spoke with the pretty who is pretty sure his dogs will work. Knowing the parents of the pup he wants, all of us in the club are telling him not to chance it. As one guy in the club said, a pup from that litter might be the best working dog in the world but he wouldn't bet on it. Then he follows up with, "you couldn't give me one of those puppies for free."
> 
> ...


nailed it on the head. 



Gillian Schuler said:


> Is Jeremy adult?





Carol Boche said:


> I'm really sorry, but I just choked on my coffee......:razz:.


x2. lol I am but I do feel like a kid. Im not very knowledgeable about working dogs & when I see something I like I get excited. Until someone points out the flaws that I have know clue to look for.



Gillian Schuler said:


> No matter Carol -:smile: the spit didn't reach me
> 
> Facit: no one can tell you what breed to buy - you have to go out and watch and ask questions on the field and not just on the Internet.


thats what Im trying to do besides this.
I live an hour away (with no traffic) from training. i go with no dog, sleep for about 5 hrs then go to work do it over again. 



Donna DeYoung said:


> PS. noticed one post you said you wanted traditional saddle back look? isn't that a show line trait? stick to what you want IN the dog, not what's on the outside. color should be your last consideration. but if you get one that is the color you prefer, it's a bonus.
> 
> Donna


I've come to the realization that with out dropping serious money, still no guarantee, thats not gonna happen. I am looking at some working GSD's & keeping my options open.

again thanks for the advise. every bit helps.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I wish I could help you. I can only say, try Mike Suttle for a GSD. Failing that, come over here to Europe and sift them through. There are very good breeders of working lines GSDs and also working line Malnois. Someone here on WDF who advertises pups will not try to sell you something you can't work with. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


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## Guest (May 26, 2010)

jeremy anderson said:


> If you went truck shopping & you found a truck that will do what you need it to but was pink or purple would you buy it? probably not. you would keep looking around till you found the exact one you wanted.
> why settle for something you won't be 100% happy with.


Actually Jeremy, I would buy it, I have bought it and I drive it every day. :lol: It is ugly as sin but goes where I need to go and fits the dogs. I also drive a 1980 Land Cruiser that gets better mpg than comparably sized trucks made in 2010, runs like a monster, is ugly as sin, covered in bedliner, rusty and beat up, has 220,000+ miles on it and fits the dogs and will go anywhere you can take a vehicle. I paid $2000 for it 5 years ago and it rocks right out of the old box.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Vin Chiu said:


> Actually Jeremy, I would buy it, I have bought it and I drive it every day. :lol: It is ugly as sin but goes where I need to go and fits the dogs. I also drive a 1980 Land Cruiser that gets better mpg than comparably sized trucks made in 2010, runs like a monster, is ugly as sin, covered in bedliner, rusty and beat up, has 220,000+ miles on it and fits the dogs and will go anywhere you can take a vehicle. I paid $2000 for it 5 years ago and it rocks right out of the old box.


lol touche' =D> lol. you get my point though. :smile:


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

Donna DeYoung said:


> "Tell your buddy to get a working line German Shepherd"
> 
> getting a working line GS is just the beginning of it. I got one of those and what a lot of WORK it is. She doesn't have the drive. Good hard bite when she gets to the sleeve. but hard to get her attention on me w/ minimal ball, food, and prey drive. we are working to build "confidence". Does make a SUPER pet and could do herding and likes tracking.Will admit I didn't know much when I bought her, but expected (probably like a lot of dumb newbies) if I got a working line it would actually like working. was i wrong!
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I was talking about. We have people here who are breeding working line type GSD's that work like crap, no drive. And then they sell them to people who see other working line dogs and ASSUME they are getting the same thing. Sure there is a market out there for pets, but then people buy them and expect them to work. Saw it just Sunday people came out watched the male dog work and then went home with puppy out of a bitch that has never seen the field. Nice enough dog, just not a high drive working dog. None of the puppies from these people have been sold to other schutzhund people, just pet folks who then eventually decide they want to give it a try too...It's a real shame for the GSD breed.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

If people in my club including the trainer told me not to buy a dog from a certain person because it was not a good choice for me. Meaning the dogs don't work well....I would take their advice and not argue it. I would just say ok hook me up with a good breeder and I will get a pup from them.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> If people in my club including the trainer told me not to buy a dog from a certain person because it was not a good choice for me. Meaning the dogs don't work well....I would take their advice and not argue it. I would just say ok hook me up with a good breeder and I will get a pup from them.


:wink:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> If people in my club including the trainer told me not to buy a dog from a certain person because it was not a good choice for me. Meaning the dogs don't work well....I would take their advice and not argue it. I would just say ok hook me up with a good breeder and I will get a pup from them.



Who do you train with Ben?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ben Thompson said:


> If people in my club including the trainer told me not to buy a dog from a certain person because it was not a good choice for me. Meaning the dogs don't work well....I would take their advice and not argue it. I would just say ok hook me up with a good breeder and I will get a pup from them.


I almost agree 100% with this, however, I do think looking around at different recommended breeders that were suggested is a good idea too. 
Some breeders are better than others at knowing how to place pups with handlers. And most breeders know what they have in a litter early on, so they are able to talk to the person and tell them if they even have anything for them (looks aside here). 

I took Ash because I have seen Buko....I have seen him in training AND I know what he can be like on the field.....I have seen a bit of Soda as well and I TRUST Jeff (don't start Howard, please).....I got her sight unseen except for the one video at like 4 or 5 weeks......she is a really nice puppy and she is beautiful to boot (which is just a bonus).....unlike her brother....LOL


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeremy is in great hands with the group if he would have faith in them. Both of the helpers are dog breeders of Malinois and GSDs. Many of the Mals from the one breeder consistently placed in the top five at the AWMA nationals. The point is, they know all aspects of dogs from breeding to training to trialing in schH. They have friends who have good working dogs etc...AND they know Jeremy so I would trust them to pick a dog sight unseen for him.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> Jeremy is in great hands with the group if he would have faith in them. Both of the helpers are dog breeders of Malinois and GSDs. Many of the Mals from the one breeder consistently placed in the top five at the AWMA nationals. The point is, they know all aspects of dogs from breeding to training to trialing in schH. They have friends who have good working dogs etc...AND they know Jeremy so I would trust them to pick a dog sight unseen for him.


what about boxers? they look kinda cool & dude down the street has some pups. :-o


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

jeremy anderson said:


> what about boxers? they look kinda cool & dude down the street has some pups. :-o



I watched a Boxer get a FR1 this past weekend.....seriously....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> what about boxers? they look kinda cool & dude down the street has some pups. :-o



yeah they can work. 

I know a guy in MN that used to have working boxers. Damn! that's all I can say.

The euro boxers are nothing like the skinny little whimps you see here.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> yeah they can work.
> 
> I know a guy in MN that used to have working boxers. Damn! that's all I can say.
> 
> The euro boxers are nothing like the skinny little whimps you see here.


SWEET! im putting my deposit now tonight! he doesnt have the parents but said they both work really hard.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Are you serious? Was this an entire thread trying to point you to the two breeds with the greatest chance of success and you decide to go with the guy down the street's boxer?

You're being facetious right? Or did I miss something again?


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Ben Colbert said:


> Are you serious? Was this an entire thread trying to point you to the two breeds with the greatest chance of success and you decide to go with the guy down the street's boxer?
> 
> You're being facetious right? Or did I miss something again?


he had a cool flyer on the mail box :mrgreen:






I found a pup that both myself & couple people in the group like last night. talked to the breeder & she was VERY helpful. The trainer i'm with called and asked questions & he is likes the chances they will be good pups.
thanks everyone for the advise. It really helped put things in perspective for me. :wink:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> he had a cool flyer on the mail box :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



maybe you should hold off and get an ACD. Dude, those things ain't nothing but business.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> maybe you should hold off and get an ACD. Dude, those things ain't nothing but business.


dude, I tried ACD once in high school. :-o


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> dude, I tried ACD once in high school. :-o


I wasn't talking about women.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> maybe you should hold off and get an ACD. Dude, those things ain't nothing but business.


No disrespect to Jeremy, but maybe he should hold off and get a CLUE? You guys can't get a GSD to do Schutzhund and you're talking about Australian Cattle Dogs and Boxers? This is a set up
right? You and Jeremy are pulling our chains.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> No disrespect to Jeremy, but maybe he should hold off and get a CLUE? You guys can't get a GSD to do Schutzhund and you're talking about Australian Cattle Dogs and Boxers? This is a set up
> right? You and Jeremy are pulling our chains.



Thomas the boxers and ACDs is nothing more than batering.

You haven't seen the GSD Jeremy had. It won't work, could we get it to work? Sure but it wouldn't be fun for the dog. His dog has very very low prey drive and sub-standard nerve level. It might be a late bloomer but right now its not a fun dog for Jeremy and since it's still a pup, Jeremy was able to rehome to a pet home. That's what is best for the dog. There's no point in training something that doesn't have it genetically and why train a dog like that in defense when it's has weak nerve to begin with? On top of that, Jeremy wants to do more person protection than schH.

Jeremy is getting a pup from some pretty nice working GSDs. He'll post the pedigree later. He's with the best training group in AZ and while he waits for his pup, we're working with him to develop his handler skills.

Most of us started without a clue at some point and many of us never had help learning how to be a handler and trainer. Jeremy has a leg up on a lot of folk simply because of the group he is a part of.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> Thomas the boxers and ACDs is nothing more than batering.
> 
> >That's what I suspected, but it might be difficult getting
> >anyone to respond to a serious question in the future, if
> ...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

yep it's just me and Jeremy. A sucker is born every minute and as long as jeremy can't figure out that I'm a total fraud he can keep paying me $50 a session. I can't run very fast anymore but it doesn't matter because his pup won't chase anything anyway so it's win win. All I care about it is the moola.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> yep it's just me and Jeremy. A sucker is born every minute and as long as jeremy can't figure out that I'm a total fraud he can keep paying me $50 a session. I can't run very fast anymore but it doesn't matter because his pup won't chase anything anyway so it's win win. All I care about it is the moola.


dont forget to sell him a Michalek branded E-collar and please dont forget to update you youtube videos everyday even if its only a video of dog getting shocked into a terrified stand:-D


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> yep it's just me and Jeremy. A sucker is born every minute and as long as jeremy can't figure out that I'm a total fraud he can keep paying me $50 a session. I can't run very fast anymore but it doesn't matter because his pup won't chase anything anyway so it's win win. All I care about it is the moola.


wait ........... what? ](*,)


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

best way is when he comes of the plane take him whith you to the nearest testingplace 
work the shit out of him if he works and your satisfied than put him up drive to the next testingplace 
work again the shit out of him and repeat this till hes gonna fail 
than return the dog 
if you find a dog who cannot be broken than keep him work him as much on an ecollar as you can 
if he turns in too strong buy a stronger ecollar if you cannot work him anymore on the strongest ecollor
and the dog finnaly turns in handleragressive send him back iam pretty sure it falls in the returning guarantee if not pay your vet and he will pur on paper some weird medical thing genetic ofcourse 
you can do this as many times the vendor gets you a new dog 
than if not switch from vendor there are a lot 
but dont forget dont train ,test test test try to put as lot of stress in him as you can find his breakingpoint and break him 
keep him as much in the kennel if you can give only limited food and water saves you much cleaning and try absolute not to bond whith the dog well need them handleragressive 
the more stress you can put in the dog the sooner you get a new one


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

ofcouse if you get a puppy you work simular 
no difference


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

you see Jeremy? I told you the tire iron and SMS's Testicle eCollar was the right thing. Maybe bring some asprin to training tonight, after reading Kamphuis's note, I have a feeling we're in for a long night. It's time for the sleep deprivation tests. With the kind of dog you have we might need to start with POW training sessions. 

Do you still have that board and water jug? 




kamphuis gerben said:


> best way is when he comes of the plane take him whith you to the nearest testingplace
> work the shit out of him if he works and your satisfied than put him up drive to the next testingplace
> work again the shit out of him and repeat this till hes gonna fail
> than return the dog
> ...


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

YES! 
I've always wanted to punch babies & puppies. 

I took care of the baby punching last week, now its the puppies turn! 

really I am getting excited. still have to wait a bit for him/her to get here but it will be worth it.



if it doesn't work im buying a Liger :neutral:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

WTF is wrong with you Jeremy? That's abuse. I didn't teach you how to abuse living things.

And um....Ligers are fictional. Maybe laying off the ACD for a few days will help.



jeremy anderson said:


> YES!
> I've always wanted to punch babies & puppies.
> 
> I took care of the baby punching last week, now its the puppies turn!
> ...


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> WTF is wrong with you Jeremy? That's abuse. I didn't teach you how to abuse living things.
> 
> And um....Ligers are fictional. Maybe laying off the ACD for a few days will help.


o'rly now ........ http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS350US350&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=liger :-o


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> o'rly now ........ http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS350US350&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=liger :-o


I don't care about that shit. If I tell you they are fake then they are fake. You suck as a padawan.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> I don't care about that shit. If I tell you they are fake then they are fake. You suck as a padawan.


tell me that when i teach my liger / tion (haven't decided), to foose.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> tell me that when i teach my liger / tion (haven't decided), to foose.



I'd be happy to after he shits you out.

Our terms have changed if you want to continue learning from me, it's $80 and a couple of meals per session.

Now let's focus on that dog of yours. Did you chain him to the tree before you left for work like I told you to? And maybe up the dose of gunpower in his Beneful.


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## Guest (May 28, 2010)

kamphuis gerben said:


> best way is when he comes of the plane take him whith you to the nearest testingplace
> work the shit out of him if he works and your satisfied than put him up drive to the next testingplace
> work again the shit out of him and repeat this till hes gonna fail
> than return the dog
> ...


That's funny.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Update*
Thanks everyone for the advise. topic went to joking in the end but it helped. I bought a GSD from True Haus in Oroville, Ca. They were awesome people & helped pick out the best pup for me. :-D
I got the looks I was looking for & the workability. Everyone is extremely happy
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/672028.html


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> no. I had a good opportunity to buy two great working rott pups for a decent price but they had a tail. I know it sounds petty but I have to be completely happy with my choice. If I can't find that dog I'm looking for than I'll settle with the best I can find when that time comes. until then I'll keep looking



Okay, I can't help but ask, what's the bloodlines of the puppy in the avatar. You can PM if you like.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Whooops, I should've scrolled down. 

Terrasita


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

LOL, I just saw his mommy Satrurday at training. Good Luck with your puppy.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> LOL, I just saw his mommy Satrurday at training. Good Luck with your puppy.


thank you. 
Cindy is working with Gitta now. she started my pup until I picked her up. Awesome people. :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> Thomas the boxers and ACDs is nothing more than batering.


What is batering??


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> What is batering??


Teaching the down with a louisville


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

jeremy anderson said:


> Update*
> Thanks everyone for the advise. topic went to joking in the end but it helped. I bought a GSD from True Haus in Oroville, Ca. They were awesome people & helped pick out the best pup for me. :-D
> I got the looks I was looking for & the workability. Everyone is extremely happy
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/672028.html


OH MY GOD you bought a puppy that the mother didn't have at least a SCH1 on her shame on you. Well I don't know you but didn't anybody tell you a untitled dog will produce shit and a titled dog shits gold J/K:lol:. Looks like a nice GSD pup, good luck with it.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> OH MY GOD you bought a puppy that the mother didn't have at least a SCH1 on her shame on you. Well I don't know you but didn't anybody tell you a untitled dog will produce shit and a titled dog shits gold J/K:lol:. Looks like a nice GSD pup, good luck with it.


lol, yeah i heard that rumor. Seen nothing but good things so far from the pup. Thanks.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> lol, yeah i heard that rumor. Seen nothing but good things so far from the pup. Thanks.




Cheezus Jeremy, I go out of town for awhile and you get yourself another shitter. I told you, you could play with my dogs until I return from this tour. Instead, I'm stuck in a shitty van with four other grown men on our way to Mississippi. Don't worry though, I bring you a bottle of gulf water full of corexit in case you **** up this dog too.

Don't screw up my dogs while I'm gone!


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> Cheezus Jeremy, I go out of town for awhile and you get yourself another shitter. I told you, you could play with my dogs until I return from this tour. Instead, I'm stuck in a shitty van with four other grown men on our way to Mississippi. Don't worry though, I bring you a bottle of gulf water full of corexit in case you **** up this dog too.
> 
> Don't screw up my dogs while I'm gone!


Don't sweat it, I'm good with your dogs. I got Xena to down faster. (although the bucket now has a dent from her head) 
& kaiser looooves McDoubles. he'll track all day for Mcdonalds 
Have fun bro. stay safe


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jeremy anderson said:


> ;218432I got Xena to down faster.


no peanut butter involved


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> I can't speak for everyone, but wouldn't it be more fun to succeed with a dog that is suited for the venue the first time around? Maybe leave the challange until you have trained a dog or two.


 
Nicely put. I have to say, I wish i started with a Mal, I did not like them too much when i first started and I am still not to fond of them BUT, they sure seem to make training more enjoyable for the handlers.

i am beginning to disagree with the general consensus of the forgiveness of the GSD, compared to the Mal. Sure, the Mals are reactive, but you can train hanlers to get better. I see a trait in my GSD, when she is being what most refer to as forgiving I am certian she is actually plotting something. "The next time i get that F'ing toy, I'm outta here"


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> no peanut butter involved


yeah what Joby said! Jeremy, if my dogs develop a taste for peanut butter, I'm going to make butter out of your peanuts and then we're going to see how well your birthday suit compares to a Demanet suit. :wink:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> yeah what Joby said! Jeremy, if my dogs develop a taste for peanut butter, I'm going to make butter out of your peanuts and then we're going to see how well your birthday suit compares to a Demanet suit. :wink:


You better do a Jelly test to while your at it AHHHHHHH HAHAHAHA, He might try getting sneaky on you. His birthday suit might have holes in it before you even get home:-\"


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Figured this is as good of a place as any to show a quick update

4 mos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8o5_HR26ms

6 1/2 mos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M55pHAGhPVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_jmw78mrbU

7 mos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThOYAmYuJOc


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

looking good jeremy....thanks for posting


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Not necessarily, but in my limited experience I have never been impressed much by any female dog in an aggression situation.


Gerry I have a little bandog bitch hmmm round 50 lbs that would impress the hell out of you in an aggression situation.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> looking good jeremy....thanks for posting


Thanks


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeremy, why do you back away with the dog instead of kick the item to the decoy? Whip= back away if your not careful. Also, why do you guys use a whip? Not judging just wondering.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Al Curbow said:


> Jeremy, why do you back away with the dog instead of kick the item to the decoy? Whip= back away if your not careful. Also, why do you guys use a whip? Not judging just wondering.


I think I can answer the questions but I don't want to be wrong (still learning). When I get home I will ask the trainer & let you know why.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> I think I can answer the questions but I don't want to be wrong (still learning). When I get home I will ask the trainer & let you know why.


Jeremy, why do you think you are using a whip and backing off then ?


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Al Curbow said:


> Jeremy, why do you back away with the dog instead of kick the item to the decoy? Whip= back away if your not careful. Also, why do you guys use a whip? Not judging just wondering.


Faja has over the top prey drive. If we don't get her focused on the man she will become a sleeve sucker fast. I'm not in it for the sport. I don't want that. We are making the sleeve just the target & after she got that the fight is still with the man. Majority of the time when she drops the sleeve he will come in over it or from a different angle or I will just bring her forward over the sleeve to him. 
The whip is used for attraction. Its all to get her focused on the man not the item.


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