# Beaucerons ?



## maggie fraser

How is the health and general all round well being of the Beauceron and are the usual suspects like HD etc. a prominent problem like with many of the other larger breeds ?

The working line Beauceron as far as I'm aware at this point in time don't exist in the UK, I had discovered this when they had caught my interest a wee while back. What beeders and lines are there in France Debbie should I look at if my interests were to develop here?


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## Debbie Skinner

maggie fraser said:


> How is the health and general all round well being of the Beauceron and are the usual suspects like HD etc. a prominent problem like with many of the other larger breeds ?
> 
> The working line Beauceron as far as I'm aware at this point in time don't exist in the UK, I had discovered this when they had caught my interest a wee while back. What beeders and lines are there in France Debbie should I look at if my interests were to develop here?


The Cite des Grands Feux working lines and the Loutre Noire working lines were known for good hips. The Ru D'Orly line had more problems. Also, the Theo line had more problems. Loutre Noire is no more and neither is Ru D'Orly, but you will see these kennel names behind most of the good working dogs. Also, due to the the limited working bloodlines, it would not be wise to "throw away" the Ru D'Orly or Theo bloodline. Some of the old Ru D'Orly dogs were so "fun" to work and had really happy, clownish temperaments to live with. With Theo, you can find some big biters, which is very important. With Loutre Noire, you find a great nose, fast, energetic dogs, ball drive, and bites..smaller dogs overall. 

I'm not saying any of these lines have serious or huge problems with HD, but I've seen more in Ru D'Orly and some dogs descending from Theo than with the others. Now Kefriden (Cite des Grands Feux) is focusing more on beauty and not working dogs, but his old stuff where you see Ce x Dora and Ce x with other workings lines is very interesting. 

I can recommend the following breeders as all try their best to produce good working dogs and I've met them and know them so I can feel comfortable recommending them. 


http://beauceron-dgv.com/ 


http://pagesperso-orange.fr/campagnards.valette/

http://chasseurdombre.free.fr/sommaire_eng.htm

also, http://www.scorpionsintrepides.fr


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## Debbie Skinner

Also, Gilles Deprez is a super breeder. Elevage des Coteaux du Petit Gris. He did the "magic cross" between Ce de la Cite des Grands Feux and Feline de La Loutre Noire, FRIII that produced Iqua "Jaguar" and Indy, Ice, etc.

His page: http://www.chiens-de-france.com/site_eleveur/index.php?ID_ELEVEUR=9609&ID_SITE=10828


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## ann schnerre

i have a question: why are double dew claws needed (required?) on a Beauceron? admittedly i don't know much about them, but the only other breed that i heard required them was great Pyrs, to help them get around in snow....???


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## Debbie Skinner

ann schnerre said:


> i have a question: why are double dew claws needed (required?) on a Beauceron? admittedly i don't know much about them, but the only other breed that i heard required them was great Pyrs, to help them get around in snow....???


There are a couple different explanations. One being that the dogs of certain villages that were the "best workers" had doubles and so breeders and users of the dogs believed that the double dews and the working ability were connected. Another is like with the Pyr in that it's a large bearing surface, but for walking the back of the sheep in a crowded holding pen and not snow like the Pyr. 

The Briard has the same IMO stupid requirement of double hind dew-claws.

Some people claim it's a sign of purity which is a crock since Briards and Pyrs have them too...and if you mixed 2 or 3 of these breeds together..you'd probably have pups with double dews too! :grin:


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## Jackie Mulligan

I find it interesting that these three, French breeds all have double, back dewclaws. Are they all descended from the same stock?


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## ann schnerre

thanks, debbie. now, i find that even single hind dewclaws are more prone to injury; seems like the doubles would be even worse--do you find it so or not so much?


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## Debbie Skinner

ann schnerre said:


> thanks, debbie. now, i find that even single hind dewclaws are more prone to injury; seems like the doubles would be even worse--do you find it so or not so much?


I've never had trouble with the double dews, but they are different than many of the single "flimzy" dews that are normally snipped off the back leg of a pup (GSD, Mal, Rottie..). The doubles are attached to the leg bone significantly and must be severed off. They have digits and the size of a regular toe in many cases. I've had pups with rear double dew-claws set low on the foot and they were an extension of the toes. Just looked like more toes on the foot.

They do require trimming on most dogs which is an extra inconvenience. Some dogs do trim them by biting them similar to how cats trim their claws with their teeth.


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## Debbie Skinner

Jackie Mulligan said:


> I find it interesting that these three, French breeds all have double, back dewclaws. Are they all descended from the same stock?


Briards and Beaucerons were considered the same French Shepherd at one time. The Briard being the long-haired shepherd and the Beauce being the short haired Shepherd. Then some scientist or biologist decided to separate and name them.

Berger de Brie (Briard) for the region of Brie
Berger de Beauce (Beauceron) Bas Rouge ("Red Stockings" is the common name). For the region of Beauce.

This does not mean that either breed originated strictly from either region. From what I understand these two breeds descended from what was called a peat bog dog or wolf that was native to the swampy areas around Paris Region.

There is also the large herding breed of France - Picardie (Berger de Picard). He stands as tall as some Beaucerons and has a rough coat. From what I've read in the French book "Le Grand Livre des Chiens de Berger Francais", this breed does not require double dews.

Neither does the small French Shepherd - Berger des Pyrenees (Pyrenees Shepherd). New to AKC in 2009 and 1st time at Westminster this month (2010).


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## Debbie Skinner

maggie fraser;175639..................What beeders and lines are there in France Debbie should I look at if my interests were to develop here?[/quote said:


> Here are a couple flow charts of bloodines through influential sires.


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## maggie fraser

Many thanks indeed Debbie, lots there to go on. How are they as house dogs, I wouldn't imagine them to be climbing the walls like a Mal would.. and what are the tendencies toward dog aggression if any ? Thanks again.


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## Debbie Skinner

maggie fraser said:


> Many thanks indeed Debbie, lots there to go on. How are they as house dogs, I wouldn't imagine them to be climbing the walls like a Mal would.. and what are the tendencies toward dog aggression if any ? Thanks again.


In the house, 100 times easier than a Malinois. Overall they are more of a farm dog that is fine to do what you are doing...do some gardening, go to town or a hike, then watch tv, etc. They need excise and mental stimulation, but not to the extent of a Malinois. My malinois insist that I do something very physical with them every day...well, except 11 year old "Orly" who now is ok to mostly go to town with me, get a few bites on the weekend and stay in the house on her very comfortable dog bed. :grin:

Sometimes a bit of dominance or possessiveness when living together of course. However, I select for strong character and dominant, forward dogs. Sometimes and it would be with the bitches (either malinois or Beauce) they decide they can't stand each other. Also, my dogs are all intact and this normally seems to escalate when someone is coming into season or pregnant. Not dog aggressive like the Bully Breeds or like I see with GSDs sometimes that want to go after other dogs in public. In public at dog shows, pet expos, our dogs are very tolerant to other dogs and people milling about.

We always attend the America's Family Pet Expo, which has a crazy amount of people, vendors, animal breed booths (pets) of all kinds. Several of us run the breed booths for both Mals & Beauces which are side by side. It's a 3 day event. We all bring dogs and the dogs are fine together. We just don't do something stupid like throw 1 treat in the area for 3 dogs or start playing ball in a group of strange dogs.


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## Debbie Skinner

Here are some photos that may be better than words to describe the Beauceron's character. The first 2 are of Avatar, FRIII, French confirmed with a child at the airport "Charles de Gaulle" and also being hugged by a girl in SoCal. The next is a group of Beaucerons at the Palm Springs Show. Next is Brava (Seneque, FRIII x Renoutet, FRIII) with puppies and "friends".. baby emu and my friend's parolette bird. The last photo is in Garner Valley in SoCal where I meet up with friends to hike with all our dogs. It's not far from a lake where we go and play water retrieve with them too.


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## Debbie Skinner

One other thing to know about in France is that only dogs that are "Confirmed" (Breed Survey) by an authorized breed judge can be used for breeding in France. If the parents are not both "Confirmed" the litter will not be registered by the SCC/French Registry. 

I've attached an example of this below. This is a dog bred by me here in America: Avatar des Ombres Valeureux. His owner took him to France in 2008 and then he was confirmed there.

When a dog/pup is initially registered by SCC/France, it gets a registration number that follows LOF such as 126765. But, then when mature the dog must go in front of a judge and then another set of numbers are added to the registration number. The original number is followed by a " / " then the more numbers.

Notice the number that follows the " LOF 1 B.BE " 126765/17347 The 17347 is proof that the dog has breeding rights.

For dogs born in France, this will be marked on their SCC pedigree. For dogs registered by foreign registries such as AKC, the number will be stamped and signed by SCC official directly on the AKC papers.


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## maggie fraser

Thanks Debbie, you've posted some really useful information there and have answered many of the questions I have about the breed.

What have been the main contributing factors of their decline in your opinion ? The gsd and mal being a better and more suited breed to the demands made on the working dog now in our modern world perhaps ?

Many folks here are not aware of this breed, there are a couple of show breeders and to my knowledge, only one working as a successful police k9 to my knowledge.

It's idle talk at the minute though, my current gsd is still kicking and breathing but for how long I'm not yet sure. I prefer the males, probably for working trials so he'd need a good nose and athletic ability hence soundness, and as importantly a stimulating companion, man work doesn't come until later in working trials


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## chris haynie

"In the house, 100 times easier than a Malinois. Overall they are more of a farm dog that is fine to do what you are doing...do some gardening, go to town or a hike, then watch tv, etc. They need excise and mental stimulation, but not to the extent of a Malinois. My malinois insist that I do something very physical with them every day...well, except 11 year old "Orly" who now is ok to mostly go to town with me, get a few bites on the weekend and stay in the house on her very comfortable dog bed.







"

so you mean a good working beauceron can train, exercise and then actually mellow out at home? my foster mal drove me nuts...even after the daily runs (i run my border collie x every morning) and training/tug games/retreives side by side with my dog this foster never realy settled or relaxed.

are there any good working beaucerons on the east coast? i'd love to meet one and talk w/ thier people but dont know of any within a reasonable driving distance of me.


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## Debbie Skinner

chris haynie said:


> "so you mean a good working beauceron can train, exercise and then actually mellow out at home? my foster mal drove me nuts...even after the daily runs (i run my border collie x every morning) and training/tug games/retreives side by side with my dog this foster never realy settled or relaxed.
> 
> are there any good working beaucerons on the east coast? i'd love to meet one and talk w/ thier people but dont know of any within a reasonable driving distance of me.



YES, but the trick is to find a good working Beauceron. A friend of mine who does Schutzhund has Malinois and Beaucerons as I do. We comment all the time how the Beaucerons are easier to live with. 

There is a breeder of working Beaucerons in West Virginia. Is that east enough? She focuses on hunt drive and tracking. She also breeds Czech GSDs. Both on a very limited basis right now. Her dogs are from French Ring sport bloodlines and my bloodlines so worth checking out. Kathy Holbert www.chiodokennels.com She has a old French import male with some different working bloodlines than my dogs that I am getting a pup from in 2010 and also would like to breed a female too.


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## Debbie Skinner

maggie fraser said:


> Thanks Debbie, you've posted some really useful information there and have answered many of the questions I have about the breed.
> 
> What have been the main contributing factors of their decline in your opinion ? The gsd and mal being a better and more suited breed to the demands made on the working dog now in our modern world perhaps ?
> 
> Many folks here are not aware of this breed, there are a couple of show breeders and to my knowledge, only one working as a successful police k9 to my knowledge.
> 
> It's idle talk at the minute though, my current gsd is still kicking and breathing but for how long I'm not yet sure. I prefer the males, probably for working trials so he'd need a good nose and athletic ability hence soundness, and as importantly a stimulating companion, man work doesn't come until later in working trials


#1 "Kiss of Death" - The French Breed Survey with all the DQs (disqualifications) has removed many quality dogs from the gene pool over the years. Also, they kept changing the standard increasing the size of the dogs because that's what they liked to "look at". 

The French Breed club does not support the working Beaucerons and would be happy to see the dogs act like goofy Labs. 

In 2008 at the National D'Elevage (Beauceron Specialty) near Paris, the club chose the best flat areas for the "beauty show" and the ring field was on a rough, sloping field that went into a swampy area! :-( That about sums up their attitude. Also, there were a couple French club members setting up the field and our group of 5 chipped in and helped them...pretty sad attitude by most of the Beauceroners at the Specialty.

The GSD and Mals are better off because of the influence of the Mals (NVBK and KNPV).


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## chris haynie

Debbie Skinner said:


> YES, but the trick is to find a good working Beauceron. A friend of mine who does Schutzhund has Malinois and Beaucerons as I do. We comment all the time how the Beaucerons are easier to live with.
> 
> There is a breeder of working Beaucerons in West Virginia. Is that east enough? She focuses on hunt drive and tracking. She also breeds Czech GSDs. Both on a very limited basis right now. Her dogs are from French Ring sport bloodlines and my bloodlines so worth checking out. Kathy Holbert www.chiodokennels.com She has a old French import male with some different working bloodlines than my dogs that I am getting a pup from in 2010 and also would like to breed a female too.


thank you much. i will try and make arraingements to go see Kathy.


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## Patrick Cheatham

Kathy Holbert is a great dog trainer / handler and knows a lot about what it takes to have a good working dog.


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## maggie fraser

Thanks Debbie, it seems the way of most breeds these days. I have one last question, I know you said they're quite like a farm dog but, are they quite sensitive like the gsd? I also have had a hankering for a bloodhound having had one in the family as a child but will not touch one here due to the health issues. The beauceron look an interesting dog but I'm not interested in an unhealthy good looking animal who's not interested/able to do much.


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## kuan chang

Thanks for this thread, guys, and for the wealth of good information!




Debbie Skinner said:


> The Cite des Grands Feux working lines and the Loutre Noire working lines were known for good hips. The Ru D'Orly line had more problems. Also, the Theo line had more problems. Loutre Noire is no more and neither is Ru D'Orly, but you will see these kennel names behind most of the good working dogs. Also, due to the the limited working bloodlines, it would not be wise to "throw away" the Ru D'Orly or Theo bloodline. Some of the old Ru D'Orly dogs were so "fun" to work and had really happy, clownish temperaments to live with. With Theo, you can find some big biters, which is very important. With Loutre Noire, you find a great nose, fast, energetic dogs, ball drive, and bites..smaller dogs overall.
> 
> I'm not saying any of these lines have serious or huge problems with HD, but I've seen more in Ru D'Orly and some dogs descending from Theo than with the others. Now Kefriden (Cite des Grands Feux) is focusing more on beauty and not working dogs, but his old stuff where you see Ce x Dora and Ce x with other workings lines is very interesting.
> 
> I can recommend the following breeders as all try their best to produce good working dogs and I've met them and know them so I can feel comfortable recommending them.
> 
> 
> http://beauceron-dgv.com/
> 
> 
> http://pagesperso-orange.fr/campagnards.valette/
> 
> http://chasseurdombre.free.fr/sommaire_eng.htm
> 
> also, http://www.scorpionsintrepides.fr


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## kuan chang

Careful Debbie, people are gonna start rumors that you are cross-breeding Beaucerons with EMUS!!! 
:-D



Debbie Skinner said:


> Here are some photos that may be better than words to describe the Beauceron's character. The first 2 are of Avatar, FRIII, French confirmed with a child at the airport "Charles de Gaulle" and also being hugged by a girl in SoCal. The next is a group of Beaucerons at the Palm Springs Show. Next is Brava (Seneque, FRIII x Renoutet, FRIII) with puppies and "friends".. baby emu and my friend's parolette bird. The last photo is in Garner Valley in SoCal where I meet up with friends to hike with all our dogs. It's not far from a lake where we go and play water retrieve with them too.


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## Debbie Skinner

kuan chang said:


> Careful Debbie, people are gonna start rumors that you are cross-breeding Beaucerons with EMUS!!!
> :-D



Really! :lol::lol:


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