# championship



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Some videos from the championship in swedish protectionprogram,
The winner,
http://www.vimeo.com/14613846

2nd place, female malinois,
http://www.vimeo.com/14615798

7th place male malinois
http://www.vimeo.com/14552598

Very nice GSD,
http://www.vimeo.com/14537857


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

These dogs were not that impressive, #1 I feel if you are going to use a muzzle for training the dog should be all over the suspect and not throwing love taps, #2 All the dogs grips were for the most part poor bites and some even chewy, #3 Number 7 dog was the only one with a halfway descent suspect guard staying close to the man the rest were to far away for my likings, #4 all the waving your arm with the dog on the bite is ??? - I hope thats not a idea of applying pressure to a dog. Just my honest opinion of these 4 dogs on video.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

So interesting to watch and the dogs are very nice. Is the sleeve similar to a schutzhund sleeve in that it's a hard sleeve? Are there other phases in this sport?


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Harry, I don´t know if I would call it "lovetaps" if a dog crash into the decoy with that force, I don´t know if you are meaning the dogs should attack and then no controll afterwards?

Yep, grips are not judged and I guess it´s hard to get a perfect grip when the sleeve are more bulky and not presented waist high like in IPO. A very thight guard is also not necessary for a PSD, at least in the old times the dogs should have some distance to avoid kicks, it´s not IPO-rules.

I don´t think the wawing is about pressure, just like the decoys in KNPV don´t put any "pressure" on the dogs after they have bitten in many of their exercizes, I guess the thought is/was the dog should stop the "bad guy" and controll him untill the handler arrives.That a bad guy would drive the dog in an artficial SCH-style was probably not something they thought about when the sport was founded. 

Susan, yes it´other parts, tracking, articlesearch and search after two hidden decoys in the forrest and also an obediencepart, so it includes many things.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Just my observations from what I saw directly from the videos, Just one mans opinion thats all.


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## Greg Whelehan (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> These dogs were not that impressive, #1 I feel if you are going to use a muzzle for training the dog should be all over the suspect and not throwing love taps, #2 All the dogs grips were for the most part poor bites and some even chewy, #3 Number 7 dog was the only one with a halfway descent suspect guard staying close to the man the rest were to far away for my likings, #4 all the waving your arm with the dog on the bite is ??? - I hope thats not a idea of applying pressure to a dog. Just my honest opinion of these 4 dogs on video.


I would have to agree with you Erik.... For the amount of control shown in this trial/sport the dogs seemed ok. I didn't see them gather on their entries at all, and their muzzle hits looked good. 

Not sure what you would consider a "love tap" Harry?? The hits of these dogs were hard, of course there are harder hitting dogs but the amount of control right after I'm sure has something to do with it.

Harry do you know anything about this sport? Kind of tough judgment about there dogs if you don't know what there training background is fully. I have seen numerous video's of these trials but I don't know 100% what goes into it but always nice to see other sports/training.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I liked all the dogs. The winner was especially interesting- what kennel is he out of?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Greg Whelehan said:


> I would have to agree with you Erik.... For the amount of control shown in this trial/sport the dogs seemed ok. I didn't see them gather on their entries at all, and their muzzle hits looked good.
> 
> Not sure what you would consider a "love tap" Harry?? The hits of these dogs were hard, of course there are harder hitting dogs but the amount of control right after I'm sure has something to do with it.
> 
> Harry do you know anything about this sport? Kind of tough judgment about there dogs if you don't know what there training background is fully. I have seen numerous video's of these trials but I don't know 100% what goes into it but always nice to see other sports/training.


Greg don't know all there is to know about all sports, but was making a clear factual observation of what the videos showed in my eyes, unless I'm going blind a need glasses. Everybody has there hypes and ways of training and what sports they like. Important thing is there working their dogs. Doesn't mean that we have to participate all sports and learn them to the T especially when we don't train in those methods but like I say I commend people that worked their dogs to answer your question Greg.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> Some videos from the championship in swedish protectionprogram,
> The winner,
> http://www.vimeo.com/14613846
> 
> ...


 
Interesting to see a few things...sleeve (different than the norm) and stick in sleeve hand. I don't know squat about this sport so I can't say how it looks, but did notice the nice control before, during and after the tasks. 

Dogs looked nice and the winner I liked the intensity of some of his muzzle attacks. Would be interesting to see with less control and street a street scenario. 

Thanks for sharing.....BTW how much does that sleeve weigh?


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## Greg Whelehan (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Greg don't know all there is to know about all sports, but was *making a clear factual observation of what the videos showed in my eyes*, *unless I'm going blind a need glasses.* Everybody has there hypes and ways of training and what sports they like. Important thing is there working their dogs. Doesn't mean that we have to participate all sports and learn them to the T especially when we don't train in those methods but like I say I commend people that worked their dogs to answer your question Greg.


Harry, Not sure if you're going blind or not...... maybe you can tell us why the muzzle hits looked like "luv taps." What do you see to make that "factual" observation?
I only watched the videos once but if I remember correctly most dogs hit hard and one of the dogs hit so hard he/she bounced off the decoy on his/her back and came back for more???


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Greg Whelehan said:


> Harry, Not sure if you're going blind or not...... maybe you can tell us why the muzzle hits looked like "luv taps." What do you see to make that "factual" observation?
> I only watched the videos once but if I remember correctly most dogs hit hard and one of the dogs hit so hard he/she bounced off the decoy on his/her back and came back for more???


I tell you what I do for you Greg, first read your PM I sent you, and I am going to give you a call being that you seem to have time to type on the WDF.

As far as the love taps it was me being SARCASTIC, at the same times they seem like nice hits. Although I like to see the dogs continue to say in the fight on the muzzle, but like you said none of us compete in it so we dont understand it 100%.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> I tell you what I do for you Greg, first read your PM I sent you, and I am going to give you a call being that you seem to have time to type on the WDF.
> 
> As far as the love taps it was me being SARCASTIC, at the same times they seem like nice hits. *Although I like to see the dogs continue to say in the fight on the muzzle*, but like you said none of us compete in it so we dont understand it 100%.


It was obvious that control was in there, they went into a guard type posture....but again, that is what I saw without knowing this sport...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> It was obvious that control was in there, they went into a guard type posture....but again, that is what I saw without knowing this sport...


I like the dog to say in the fight until called off, like I said I don't compete in sport and there I would like to see more realism AKA street kinda like what you posted just a few ago. JMO if I want to compete in sport then I will abide by sport rules but as of right now thats not the case and when it becomes time I will have no problem in it.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Greg sending you another PM=P~. Then I am done on this gentlemans thread to stop a pissing contest. I saw the videos commented and you can agree or disagree it don't make a dam to me.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> I like the dog to say in the fight until called off, like I said I don't compete in sport and there I would like to see more realism AKA street kinda like what you posted just a few ago. JMO if I want to compete in sport then I will abide by sport rules but as of right now thats not the case and when it becomes time I will have no problem in it.


Oh I hear ya, but the comment about the "love tap" was in a video of a Sport of which if we looked into the rules, I am sure the dog did what he was suppose to.....Hard to say something negative about a discipline when comparing to another.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

erik--thanks for posting!! i personally thoroughly enjoy your trials/tests (love the forest tests)/etc you put up here. keep 'em coming.

i only watched the winner Mal and the GSD vids as of now (time, you know?); the Mal was really good, and i didn't notice any "love taps" from either him or the GSD in the muzzle work. or at least not what I would call "love taps", lol.

heck, the GSD laid the decoy out--NOT a "love tap"  but that's a heavy-built GSD--is he typical of what Swedes are breeding in GSD? or maybe i've just been watching too many Mal videos, lol.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Erik,

Very different and interesting sport, crazy presentations, thanks for posting. I bet the training is very interesting indeed, especially the muzzle work...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Fun to watch but you must have edited the "love taps" cause I viewed each video twice and missed them. :-D


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

all four, TWICE bob?? i'm impressed (but then i always am, LOL) 

and you never caught a "luv tap" either? makes me feel a bit better--thought maybe my old eyes were deceiving me,


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Twice was necessary. Slow learner here! :lol::lol:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Eric, is there more to it than this? Is there obedience or tracking?

Thanks for posting this, I think it's interesting.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Twice was necessary. Slow learner here! :lol::lol:


what i do, is just constantly stop the vid, then go back to what i think i missed--watch some parts 4+ times, but at least i don't have to watch the disgustingly good OB over and over


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

This is what I meant by comparing the term " LOVE TAPS " when I was being SARCASTIC. When I see muzzle work and I say I like a dog to stay in the fight these are examples to what I am refering to. The initial hit in the muzzle and then the fight. When I said love tap it was kinda of like someone tapping you one time on a shoulder if you can understand the figure of speech. They were good hits but they were just a hit and back to the handler instead of staying on the decoy. Thats the best explanation I can give, so if you don't get it sorry, but it don't get no better than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmaNTn_lkz8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w19t-KtnotI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKnCH0jABi8


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I been thinking of how to put this in simple person terms as a " Figure of Speech ". So here it gos because I by no means claim to be a master of the dog world and am always open to new things and ideas. But training a dog to muzzle fight is also teaching and pretty much used to teach your dog to fight with its jaw and its weight and extremities. If you send your dog on a person for a live bite do you want your dog to bite and run back to you in a situation still leaving that person that could be still mobilized to continue to be able to cause harm because to me what I saw is conditioned the dog to do that exactly or do you want that dog to fight for its own well being and possibly others. if the perp has giving up thats what a out is for as well as a recall or a guard depending on the individual situation. 

I know its off topic of the original reason for this post, but ask yourself this question if you truly have a dog that you feel and know or in some people's cases think it will engage on a live bite?

Alright now I am officially done with this thread, so you guys and gals can go on to drag out the love tap sarcastic figure of speech and continue to interupt this man's thread for no really good reason, which I admit was wrong wording on my part so I apologize to the original poster of this thread.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> Some videos from the championship in swedish protectionprogram,
> The winner,
> http://www.vimeo.com/14613846
> 
> ...



Very interesting sport . Thanks for posting the videos .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I know not much outside of PPD and very limited PSD in regards to muzzle work.
I will take harry's examples into consideration
Video 1: great muzzle behavior, including guard..
Video 2: Good muzzle..scared decoy...limited afterfight..
Video 3:Good hit, decent nosing afterwards.. 

I have done a good deal of muzzle work personally..I was not there, but some of the HITS are subjective, and all the guys hit the ground immediately. 

I think the fighting afterwards has its merits,,but do realize in the swedish sport, the decoys DO NOT hit the ground, and the fighting is negligible, but the hits are pretty good good considering there is no dropping no fighting..and immediate control..which is probably very tricky to train..for one good hit and immediate control afterwards..tricky indeed most likely

My personal dog has decent hit but great ground fighting behavior...another dog in the group...bone bruising hits, but not the greatest ground game..so what is good??


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> This is what I meant by comparing the term " LOVE TAPS " when I was being SARCASTIC. When I see muzzle work and I say I like a dog to stay in the fight these are examples to what I am refering to. The initial hit in the muzzle and then the fight. When I said love tap it was kinda of like someone tapping you one time on a shoulder if you can understand the figure of speech. They were good hits but they were just a hit and back to the handler instead of staying on the decoy. Thats the best explanation I can give, so if you don't get it sorry, but it don't get no better than that.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmaNTn_lkz8
> 
> ...


I know "Great" muzzle work, but you bashed this work on a sport of which the dog was probably told to come off or stop anyway after his initia engagement. 

Figure of speech or not, and explained still doesn't do your comments any justice. That's like saying the dogs bite sucks on a Sch dog cuz he didn't bite in the chest....same concept, sport is taught a different way


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> I been thinking of how to put this in simple person terms as a " Figure of Speech ". So here it gos because I by no means claim to be a master of the dog world and am always open to new things and ideas. But training a dog to muzzle fight is also teaching and pretty much used to teach your dog to fight with its jaw and its weight and extremities. If you send your dog on a person for a live bite do you want your dog to bite and run back to you in a situation still leaving that person that could be still mobilized to continue to be able to cause harm because to me what I saw is conditioned the dog to do that exactly or do you want that dog to fight for its own well being and possibly others. if the perp has giving up thats what a out is for as well as a recall or a guard depending on the individual situation.
> 
> I know its off topic of the original reason for this post, but ask yourself this question if you truly have a dog that you feel and know or in some people's cases think it will engage on a live bite?
> 
> Alright now I am officially done with this thread, so you guys and gals can go on to drag out the love tap sarcastic figure of speech and continue to interupt this man's thread for no really good reason, which I admit was wrong wording on my part so I apologize to the original poster of this thread.


 
SERIOULSY??? Cmon it's a sport there are training and trialing not a PSD. The dog fights with his Jaw? Really? 

Do I have a dog that will engage for real? Of course, I have two and they have. BUT THATS NOT THE POINT! 

I am dragging out this thread? First comments were from you bashing a sport of which you know nothing about.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I do understand what Harry is saying and I also understand the others.
Every sport is different and for people who don't know what exactly is asked from the dogs, it may seem strange.

This is a completely different sport and completely different muzzle work then the one we are used to.
The Swedish muzzle work isn't done the way we do it, but then again it's a completely different exercise, so I'm not going to judge it.
We don't do the muzzle work as shown in Harry's videos either. In BR the goal is the dog giving one single lethal blow to take the decoy out. The quotation is given on the first blow.
Exercises differ according to the program.

This is what we want (this is a young dog being prepared to the muzzle work):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2331983905478258851#


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> These dogs were not that impressive, #1 I feel if you are going to use a muzzle for training the dog should be all over the suspect and not throwing love taps, #2 All the dogs grips were for the most part poor bites and some even chewy, #3 Number 7 dog was the only one with a halfway descent suspect guard staying close to the man the rest were to far away for my likings, #4 all the waving your arm with the dog on the bite is ??? - I hope thats not a idea of applying pressure to a dog. Just my honest opinion of these 4 dogs on video.


My understanding is that in this sport the dogs are trained to stay in a "perimeter" around the decoys, so that they are not hit with weapons (feet, fists, knife, sticks, bats, etc.). Also. they are to control the decoy with bites and the perimeter guard until the handler arrives. Those muzzle attacks look pretty hard to me. Not what we're accustomed to, but I do like the idea behind it. To each country its own I guess. I enjoyed the videos. In the past I've seen the dogs work in an even wider perimeter than that with equally nice muzzle hits, biting and guarding. Very interesting.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Harry, if the dogs should do the same thing unmuzzled then they would bite the decoy and out when told, same thing like they do when the decoy is wearing the sleeve. I don´t think going to the ground and let the dog countinue is so hard, I mean that´s the hard part, to train the dogs to avoid being dirty, (when they are a bit angry) when the decoy is not moving as the rules state. Just send the dog and drag it away in a collar would be so much easier both for the handlers and maybe for the quality of the dogs to if there are no demands that they quickly should change from being angry to collect themselves. That is more the first steps and not the finished trained dogs.

But of course if it was only training for the street and no sportrules then there may be no need for the dogs to do everything according to certain rules, but that goes for all sports, so I understand you point if you look at it from that angle.

Will, the winning dog is from a swedish kennels but from french lines, the father is this dog,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCJmut5u36Y

Martine, the goal is obviously to have as hard hits as possible in this program too if you wan´t good scores. But the hit inself is not the goal, the idea behind muzzlework is that the dog should be able to bite when there are no suits/sleeves. That is the thought behind muzzlework here and why they started using muzzles in the first place in police/military-training. I don´t know if the belgians have another way of thinking, I think you have another narrower type of muzzle where the dogs can´t really bite, or? 

Christopher, yes as I said, it also includes many other things, instead of the SCH-blind search the dogs in this program search for hidden decoys in the woods, also articles and a 600m long track but more practical and not so much focus on obedience like in SCH. Basically it´s more closer to policework and if I´m not missinformed similar to what SCH used to look like long ago.

This is the third placing dog, also world champion in mondioring II, an accomplishment in itself I guess. As you can see I think it gladly would like being a bit more dirty on the knocked down decoy if allowed
http://www.vimeo.com/14630019


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Alright folks moved it to PM's like the mods ask us to, Make it known public that I sent Erik a apology through PM. He understands my point of view and I understand and more respect his now. Obviously for the most part from comments on here we pretty much have not seen something on here, wheter the way the dogs were hitting, equipment, etc.... So I'm asking if you have a problem with me move it to PM to stop dragging out this and let his thread move on for I have already PM a few of you. Once again Erik my apologies sir and sorry for the tangent that has occured on your thread.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> Martine, the goal is obviously to have as hard hits as possible in this program too if you wan´t good scores. But the hit inself is not the goal, the idea behind muzzlework is that the dog should be able to bite when there are no suits/sleeves. That is the thought behind muzzlework here and why they started using muzzles in the first place in police/military-training. I don´t know if the belgians have another way of thinking, I think you have another narrower type of muzzle where the dogs can´t really bite, or?
> http://www.vimeo.com/14630019


Over here the idea is that the dog should be able to take a bad guy out, also when wearing a muzzle. That's why the blow has to be very powerful, even from a short distance.
For the civil work, we let the dogs bite for real on a decoy wearing no equipment. He wears very tight strong neoprene protection under regular clothing. The dogs can bite him black & blue but the equipment prevents puncturing.


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