# Culling. Useless, useful, cruel, real purpose?



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't know if this has come up before. I know it can raise a lot of stink/arguments but I think we can discuss it in a respectable way without any dissing and flame wars over the subject. 

I believe it served the purpose of eliminating dogs that didn't function as the "breed" was expected to. 
Herding dogs that couldn't herd, hunting dogs that didn't hunt, to many mouths to feed, yadda, yadda.

Breeders today will still do it for the same reasons and I won't trash anyone for doing so but I guess it's one of the many reasons I haven't given breeding a lot of though.

Thoughts.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

I don't like the evolution that they try to go for the perfect looks of a dog. Without looking a character or work drive. Only beauty counts. For example if they show to many of this or that. They euthanize them or in the best case sell them and force the owners to spay them.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Well for a lot of people breeding is all about money,if you can sell ten pups instead of seven you end up with more money in your pocket.
A real honest breeder(yes they are out there)Will not sell an inferior dog but what really is that?
The number of dogs(and cats ) that are put down every year in the US alone are staggering.
There is a lot of breeding going on to satisfy the cute puppy market.
Let us just look at working dogs,i have no idea if any of them are culled or if the ones that come up short are being sold as pets.Both i would think.
In another thread there is talk about eliminating females that kill their pups from breeding,kind of fits in here also.
Here in Thailand there are many many street dogs and most are in a terrible state and die a slow death,here it seems to be part of the culture,nobody wants to get rid of unwanted dogs.Outside our gate there must be a dozen of them,they sleep in the day but are very noisy at night.
Dogs like this are dangerous and cause a sh tload of accidents every day.
Dog related business is very big and and of course the dogfood people will tell you it is good for a female to have one litter.Yeah sure.
It may sound cruel but as far as i see it,cull them now or kill them later,as they say here,same same but different.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

for sure. Puppy's just for once and puppy factories should be forbidden. But breeding with dogs that have mental or physical problem also, instead of looking at her beauty. I'm pro working dog and they don't have to look pretty.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i think that culling is a necessary facet of being a good breeder. i know it is unseemly, and i know that it is unpopular, especially in this everything-has-a-right-to-life ethos that has become affixed to our kinder n' gentler modern ways but there are times when something unsuitable ought to be snuffed out and there are times when the runt is just unlucky and maybe he could still be a good candidate for a pet with a spay/neuter contract and there are even times when the runt turns out to be spectacular, thanx to that extra love and care he got from the breeder. it should be up to the breeder to decide who gets a chance because maybe they are worth it and who doesn't get a chance. something mis-formed seems the ideal candidate for being culled, does it not? that may be deemed cold, but why lengthen a sickly, difficult life which will never be able to get better? 
it is a responsibility to the pursuit of good dogs to remove the bad ones from the gene pool and from the mother's efforts, i feel, and that is not just how i view dogs. i am one of those women who would not continue on with a pregnancy if they found unfavorable test results along the way--it's simply my self-assessment reading as not being able to handle caring for a very special needs child. if that offends people then i apologize, but that's what i know of myself and that's how i feel. i have been blessed with a healthy child and i know how fortunate that makes me. also i have a dog who, while having issues upon which i must ardently work, is healthy and capable...i have had to make the decision of putting down a dog who became dangerous and it felt terrible but it was necessary, as sometimes culling is. nature and life are not like Disney makes it look--sometimes death is a needful thing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

you can cull by definition by spay neuter, this takes dogs out of the gene pool.

or you can cull by euthanasia, which takes dogs out of the genepool AND the population.

There are quite a few good reasons to practice both, or either.

Dogs are a product of a breeding, a product....a product that someone chose to produce, if it was a planned breeding, that is.

some products turn out faulty during research and development, others just don't pass quality control inspection. 

Breeding is often experimenting, sometimes experiments go wrong, or do not have the expected results 100% of the time.

I have practiced both methods, for various reasons.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

It works for lots of things. Sometimes I think we should remove warning labels and let nature do it's thing. Anyone who needs a label to remind them to remove their child before folding up the baby buggy probably shouldn't be having them.


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

As much as their is an over population of dogs in the world leading to over euthanizing I believe that it should be a thing of spaying/neutering and then still selling the pups but marketing them for what they really are...if they're not working pups for x,y,z reasons then so be it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dont trim shrubs with a mower...


Sarah Platts said:


> It works for lots of things. Sometimes I think we should remove warning labels and let nature do it's thing. Anyone who needs a label to remind them to remove their child before folding up the baby buggy probably shouldn't be having them.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Culls = SAR . Havent you checked the classifieds lately?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Culls = SAR . Havent you checked the classifieds lately?


Grrrr. 

Come on Haz, lets go run some trails..... :twisted:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I don't know if this has come up before. I know it can raise a lot of stink/arguments but I think we can discuss it in a respectable way without any dissing and flame wars over the subject.
> 
> I believe it served the purpose of eliminating dogs that didn't function as the "breed" was expected to.
> Herding dogs that couldn't herd, hunting dogs that didn't hunt, to many mouths to feed, yadda, yadda.
> ...


It's a good idea Bob.

I have lived so long in Switzerland I didn't know the word "culling" before.

Maybe "slamming aginst the wall" replaced by cullling would have been better but "undesirables" I really abhor the mention of this.

The Fila Brasileiro breeder in Germany who culled what not had a "fair life chance" also never gave us the pup we had singled out. It had an injured leg. We chose another pup and Beate waited to see how the pup developed and gave it to someone in the same village.

So much for the "undesirables".

I agree, Bob, maybe I wouldn't have been able to make the all necessary elimination of pups wo were not lifeworthy.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rob Maltese said:


> As much as their is an over population of dogs in the world leading to over euthanizing I believe that it should be a thing of spaying/neutering and then still selling the pups but marketing them for what they really are...if they're not working pups for x,y,z reasons then so be it.


Rob...

Lets say you notice some pretty severe nerve and/or confidence issues in the pups, and they are of a breeding type that will have the propensity to have a low inhibition biting people. Should these pups still be sold? or even given away in your opinion?

what if a breeding is done that will produce dogs that only responsible working dog type people should own, that possess stronger character traits that mandate a requirement for good training and good responsible handling of the dogs involved, but those dogs either have some traits or lack in some traits that make them pretty much undesirable to the people that should be buying them? Should those pups still be sold?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I look for kennels.... that cull its a good sign. It means they don't waste their time feeding poor quality working dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I look for kennels.... that cull its a good sign. It means they don't waste their time feeding poor quality working dogs.


I'm all for culling pups that have no good living chance but just culling pups because they won't make the working dog grade???


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Rob...
> 
> Lets say you notice some pretty severe nerve and/or confidence issues in the pups, and they are of a breeding type that will have the propensity to have a low inhibition biting people. Should these pups still be sold? or even given away in your opinion?
> 
> what if a breeding is done that will produce dogs that only responsible working dog type people should own, that possess stronger character traits that mandate a requirement for good training and good responsible handling of the dogs involved, but those dogs either have some traits or lack in some traits that make them pretty much undesirable to the people that should be buying them? Should those pups still be sold?


 Yes, you are touching a nerve in me with this question.

These dogs you mention do not deserve to be culled but how can all be placed with responisble owners?

I wish I knew the answer to this but I do not and it worries me that I do not.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> Grrrr.
> 
> Come on Haz, lets go run some trails..... :twisted:


Relax Sarah Im sure that you are one of the few legit SAR folks out there..I was referring to every other classified that claims the product of Shitter A to Shitter B will make great SAR dogs. Or all the "SAR" "handlers" out there that quite frankly couldnt find their ass with both hands much less train a dog (different topic, I know ).


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm all for culling pups that have no good living chance but just culling pups because they won't make the working dog grade???


I would try to keep every pup alive, I meant grown dogs that fail ones tests... standards. I don't know that mother dogs are culling their pups for weakness. Dogs are not that bright.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> I would try to keep every pup alive, I meant grown dogs that fail ones tests... standards. I don't know that mother dogs are culling their pups for weakness. Dogs are not that bright.


mothers will push away sick puppies.


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

The issue for me is that the reason to cull was more likely to be caused by the breeder in the first place especially those tools who talk about extreme anything. My job is quite extreme sometimes, and the handlers/dogs that work alongside me are exposed to the same risks with BALANCED well trained dogs, I’m not a supporter of those breeding for their own misguided experiments then culling because it all went a bit wrong.

I’ve heard several old school Police Dog trainers say that some of the best dogs they ever saw were the pups they binned and sold to other forces because they felt they didn't have the initial qualities for the role. If you're going to cull then how fool proof is your selection process, the US Military spent millions in the early 1970's with the Massachusetts University trying to develop the ultimate MWD (GSD) and made limited progress.

What age do you cull the pup? Are you going to take a 10 week old pup to the vet to get the needle because of A,B, or C perceived behaviours at that time.

I like the idea of removing them from the breeding chain but morally and ethically, I struggle with culling "healthy" pups.

Mark


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I've noticed some trainers have a bring out the best in the dog mentality and some have a it all comes down to genetics mentality... it does not seem to be related to any specific sport..I've seen IPO people from both camps...that might be a big part of the conflict when it comes to culling pups and dogs.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You dont think "bring out the best" shops for genetics? You dont think "it all comes down to genetics" folks try to bring out the best while training?





Ben Thompson said:


> I've noticed some trainers have a bring out the best in the dog mentality and some have a it all comes down to genetics mentality... it does not seem to be related to any specific sport..I've seen IPO people from both camps...that might be a big part of the conflict when it comes to culling pups and dogs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Rob...
> 
> Lets say you notice some pretty severe nerve and/or confidence issues in the pups, and they are of a breeding type that will have the propensity to have a low inhibition biting people. Should these pups still be sold? or even given away in your opinion?
> 
> what if a breeding is done that will produce dogs that only responsible working dog type people should own, that possess stronger character traits that mandate a requirement for good training and good responsible handling of the dogs involved, but those dogs either have some traits or lack in some traits that make them pretty much undesirable to the people that should be buying them? Should those pups still be sold?



I say no BUT, I had a litter of 4 pup from my Border terrier bitch and my JRT . 

One of the four (runt by a long shot) was being pushed aside by the mother and it didn't nurse when I sat there with it. . I was all prepaired to end it for the pup but one of my daughters walked in the room and fell in love with It.

I tube fed the pup for three weeks I believe and my daughter took it with her when she got married a few months later. 

Puppy had a neurological issue where both rear legs would collaps when she got excited. She'd drag herself around like nothing happened for a couple of mins and then pop right back up and keep going. She died at about five. 

I'll never do that again!

Daughter now has a Chi dog. Don't know where I went wrong on that either. :lol:


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i think there are equally compelling arguments for extreporous culling--like white Boxers or white GSDs whose destination is not Suisse Blanc registration. otherwise healthy pups being killed because they were born with a perceived flaw which wouldn't bother all sorts of owners who maybe would just have to sign a spay/neuter contract...that bothers me to undertake personally, but i do understand the impulse. i have been told that GSDs who have not achieved Sch I--now IPO, i know, i know, but i am just not going to make that leap and use the revamped name...just not going to do it--but whelp a litter anyway are, if made aware of by the government, then granted an official visit from government entity officials who cull the pups and fine the owner of the bitch heavily, all in order to preserve the standing integrity of the breed. don't actually know if this is true at all, but it sounded plausible to me and not even unreasonable, when one considers the state of most of our American-bred GSDs and what a mediocrity they are.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> You dont think "bring out the best" shops for genetics? You dont think "it all comes down to genetics" folks try to bring out the best while training?


In some cases yes in some cases no. Some people pick animals that really are not cut out for work but they want to work the dog anyway. They just like the dog or breed.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lets put it this way.

I have seen plenty of litters of pups while traveling and looking at various breeds of dogs, that I personally would not have allowed out of my house period, except for a final trip to the vet. That goes for some of the adults as well.

Shotty dogs are shotty dogs. no matter the age.

why allow more shotty dogs to enter the population, especially if they are obviously shotty ... sometimes things dont show up until later, sometimes they show up early on...

as far as training vs genetics, I want dogs that I dont need to train much to get out of them what they should have genetically.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> ..I was referring to every other classified that claims the product of Shitter A to Shitter B will make great SAR dogs. Or all the "SAR" "handlers" out there that quite frankly couldnt find their ass with both hands much less train a dog (different topic, I know ).


I've seen folks advertise puppies as SAR suitable when they don't have a clue of what we actually need. Before I got hooked on GSPs, I was looking (shhhh, whisper quietly) at GSDs. I tested the puppies and asked the breeder why they thought these would make good sar dogs. The breeder got this kinda blank look, gave a little huff and preceded to tell me that these were German Shepherds and everyone knows GSDs make great sar dogs. I thanked them and left.

I see handlers pull from sport dog or "high drive" lines and end up with to much engine and have to wash out the dog because it's not balanced for the work. Some get their nose out of joint because the dog they think is great doesn't have enough gas to get the job done. SAR is extremely frustrating because so many times the dog can hunt and hunt and never catch that brass ring.
A lot of dogs can't handle the disappointment.


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

Ben Thompson said:


> I look for kennels.... that cull its a good sign. It means they don't waste their time feeding poor quality working dogs.


 
I think culling is a part of the job a breeders should be willing to shoulder when its needed, for humane or safety reasons.

A breeder who treats it as a common occurance, I would wonder where they are going wrong.

This day and age we are able to source dogs far more effectively and from sources that we were not possible when these breeds were being developed.


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## Joshua McGrotty (Apr 15, 2013)

jack van strien said:


> Well for a lot of people breeding is all about money,if you can sell ten pups instead of seven you end up with more money in your pocket.
> A real honest breeder(yes they are out there)Will not sell an inferior dog but what really is that?
> The number of dogs(and cats ) that are put down every year in the US alone are staggering.
> There is a lot of breeding going on to satisfy the cute puppy market.
> ...


Never get tired of hearing the Thai's say that


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

just wanted to offer up the SAR example of the dogs who searched the Twin Towers rubble for weeks--cut paws, inhaling toxic fumes, working incredibly long shifts day after day and eventually getting depressed by not finding live people anymore--SO DEPRESSED that they starting hiding live volunteers so the dogs wouldn't be so sad. i'm told that worked well, made the dogs very happy because they wanted to help people that badly.
wow, sounds like a bunch of quitters and weak-temperments right? oh wait...no, that last bit was sarcasm.


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