# Terry where goes you!!!!!!!!!



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

OK, Julie did it with her "hound" and I see few of the "folks" giving her the just dues. Terry came on and kicked the can as I see it and she was part of the spillage. Dude, how are YOU making out with your dog and what is going on with your dog in the venue which you are using it? Not digging or ass busting, just looking for some FLAVOR to the new Julie post. 

Julie and her dog have worked real hard to get to this point, and while some have been positive, others have been real quiet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bloodhounds are a breed not all understand or work. For the sport folks you will never see them... It would be refreshing to hear from the "other white meat" about their success or failure rates.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why would we never see them ??


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Only if you were lost and needed an easy way out...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Howard,

I find this post a bit dissapointing. Julie has a right to be proud of her recent accomplishment. She shows great enthusiasm for the breed and her tracking work. 

Not sure why you would start a post like this as it would serve only to steal her thunder turning it into something else....

I am quite sure that Terry and others never said anything to the effect that Julie couldn't pass a certification with her bloodhound. I beleive Terry came in when the conversation shifted to 24 hr tracks. 

I am sure she will continue to learn more about her dog and what it can and can't do as she continues to move forward in her training. I would imagine that goes for all of us with working dogs....Terry included.

I really hope that she gets the opportunity to be called out by her SAR group and local LE if needed so she can continue to gain valuable experience.

Howard, you should ask the mods to close this thread! Plenty of "FLAVOR" going on on the board as it it. There is a tracking thread started by Julie about her recent cert for people to respond to if they wish.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Ditto! Well said, Jennifer!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Julie is one of MINE and I can't take anything from her...She and her dog have done great things and you need to now that, and the fact that she is from our club only strengthens the hand! Post stands. Now show more trackers...*Bloodhounds*! Julie was also part of our K-9 Demo Team in May...=D>


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

I for one was rather sceptical of the 24 hr tracks. With the input from Terry and Julie I am now reconsidering many things that I had taken for granted. One of which came out during the posts, that dogs identified the old tracks but didn't engage in them because they had never been encouraged to do so. Something I will look into with my next sport dog (for fun).
The fact that my only experience with bloodhounds was not a good one lead me to make the mistake of generalizing about bloodhounds.
I won't get a bloodhound (personal choice) but I take from these posts that maybe a good GSD can do way better than I had previously thought.
And THAT is the reason for working dog forums. To learn and try new things.
So, Julie, Terry thanks!
Mike


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I do agree - a bit in your face and confrontational.

Julie passed a certification and should be proud. Let her be. We have all been overjoyed when we passed a certificaton test. 

But PLEASE don't make the mistake of so many people that I have seen and think a certification [and I have not even heard of this organization or what their test is] means more than you have shown proficiency at some minimum level of expectation. It is a nice and necessary piece of paper for the training records and represents a lot of hard work. It is something to be proud of. 

But always ask yourself when you go out to work the dog - have I trained for THIS situation under these circumstances? Be aware of how your dog manages things she has not faced before. Trust your dog, but realize it is a dog and dogs are only human after all.  . Finding people is NOT about egos and in your face for God's sake - it includes a reality check on your own limitations.

Before we got our cadaver unit up and running, we pulled in nationally certified handlers from other teams and found out ............... you know .........its a piece of paper. It did boost our confidence in the quality of training we were putting on our own dogs though.

It also does not mean bloodhounds rule. Bloodhounds a nice trailing dog but so are a lot of other dogs.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike what a great post. I think if you owned a Bloodhound, you would then understand the why and how they work. I haven't owned one, but seeing what Julie has done, and with 24 hour tracks and the 7-8 day old one...makes you rethink the breed. Too often we do tracking based on the good old Schutzhund footstep number. 

I hate tracking and obedience, I get bored too fast and the slowness found in tracking doesn't make my interest level rise! When you see the things Julie has done, the tracks which group members have laid, and the weather conditions she has been willing to train in, then you see how it all comes together...kinda cool!

Nancy any time you use a tool, dogs included, and the end result is a "job well done" you have to be happy. Training for the unknown IS part of the job. IF a person is found alive great job, if a person is recovered, this too is a great job b/c the family has closure. Closure is something folks never talk about but is VERY important. It can't be about finding tracking aticles 24/7. Finding the guy who just shot and killed the mart owner or employee, finding the lost old fart or kid, or finding your glasses lost in 9" of grass is something to be happy about. For Julie and Lulu the bar has been kicked up to another level of training, she and the DELMARVA WORKING DOG GROUP understand this and are ready to work to see even more success and certification levels.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> But always ask yourself when you go out to work the dog - have I trained for THIS situation under these circumstances? Be aware of how your dog manages things she has not faced before.
> 
> .


A bit of advice I pass on to all newly graduated handlers as they leave the daily training arena and hit the streets; "You will never know how good your dog is until you find out what he can not do".

DFrost


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Howard,
I don't think I will ever own a bloodhound, but only because I really like GSDs. But this whole discussion got me thinking back on the tracking limitations we put on our dogs when I was a handler and that maybe I missed opportunities of pushing the dogs I handled. 
The one thing I knew a long time ago was that I would never stop learning in the dog world, mostly caus the dogs can't talk!
Mike


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

You cannot compare what we, as on-lead hound handlers do, to what Terry does with a PACK of hounds OFF-lead...

Howard, I will pay you airfare to go run from Terry's dogs....hope you can climb a tree............


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> You cannot compare what we, as on-lead hound handlers do, to what Terry does with a PACK of hounds OFF-lead...
> 
> Howard, I will pay you airfare to go run from Terry's dogs....hope you can climb a tree............


Carol I might be dumb, but I ain't stupid. Everyone knows those folks carry guns and come to their dog's defense...Same for **** hunters! A northern boy might just get stuck to a cactus plant and never make it back, yoller for days, eaten by bugs and birds, set afire by the heat of day, freeze at night. And then there would be the video...more evil than water-boarding! =;


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Carol I might be dumb, but I ain't stupid. Everyone knows those folks carry guns and come to their dog's defense...Same for **** hunters! A northern boy might just get stuck to a cactus plant and never make it back, yoller for days, eaten by bugs and birds, set afire by the heat of day, freeze at night. And then there would be the video...more evil than water-boarding! =;


Maybe...maybe not.....I just don't think (or like) the fact that you feel the need to call people out on stuff when you do not produce videos to show us that you have the right to do so, as you have been asked MULTIPLE times to share. 

I for one want to make a trip down there and watch Terry and his pack work...think it would be awesome to see that. 

I am happy for Julie...I think it is great to hear when people do well and pass certs, but I also like hearing or reading the "bad" parts....ALL are learning experiences that should be shared and not blasted by others.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I just read this thread . Evidently my silence on the few updates since the contraversial 24 hr track thread has led to some conclusions being made about why I've been quiet . From listening for years to Terry's comments on other boards about this subject(24 hour track) and other subjects that lead me to believe he's a very good K9 trainer especially hunting badguys . Terry's update on what he saw (24 hour track) has opened my eyes a little since he had nothing to gain by edmitting what he saw . I still think he's a good trainer and now think he's also a very honest man that doesn't let his pride get in the way . There are others in on this board(pro 24 hr track) who from seeing their posts throughout the years also make me think 24 hrs tracks MAY be possible since they seem to know what they are talking about on many different K9 training and working subjects . 

But , that doesn't mean I'm going to believe every yahoo that says they can do it . Props to those who can ACTUALLY do it , the training must be a b*&^ . I will not be jumping around the next time I hear some story about an old track believing it's true . Seen and heard too many exaggerated stories like that . Don't blame me blame the BS er's that are responsible for my beliefs and yes I would still like to see it done before I totally believe it . 

I'm not a close minded individual and like Terry I may have doubts about claims made about K9 work and training but I have had my beliefs changed often to several new(different) training techniques or deployment techniques that I initially had doubts about . Because I saw the results that proved they worked . But I have also seen some techniques that are pure junk that lived up to my beliefs . For me seeing is believing and if your feelings get hurt because I'd like you to back up certain claims , too bad . In my field someones life could depend on finding what I'm looking for . 

I agree with others that you(Howard) should have just left this alone . I haven't commented on this since the updates because I had nothing new to add to this subject .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Carol stated: 

" Maybe...maybe not.....I just don't think (or like) the fact that you feel the need to call people out on stuff when you do not produce videos to show us that you have the right to do so, as you have been asked MULTIPLE times to share. "

I too have asked Howard many times to back up some of his stuff (didn't need videos just a response) and he danced around talking about flowers . His silence and failure to respond to things asked of him speaks volumes to me .


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Did he or didn't he get a Bloodhound? Next point, what is the update on it IF he did? UPdate Jim update.....Last point, video we don't do, still pics we do. Enjoy them.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> ...
> I for one want to make a trip down there and watch Terry and his pack work...think it would be awesome to see that. ..quote]
> Carol I have never said I am interested in pack animals, if that were the case I can run beagles for something worth having. If pack is your thing do it. Videos...what could you learn from seeing me in a video? Doing PPD work? Working young dogs in prey, taking back bites, and setups? Cadaver dogs we don't do...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Di Rago said:


> Howard,
> I don't think I will ever own a bloodhound, but only because I really like GSDs. But this whole discussion got me thinking back on the tracking limitations we put on our dogs when I was a handler and that maybe I missed opportunities of pushing the dogs I handled.
> The one thing I knew a long time ago was that I would never stop learning in the dog world, mostly caus the dogs can't talk!
> Mike


Ryan the German SHepherd is a great all round dog and I've owned a few. The tracking is something that can be done at your own pace and in new areas. The dogs can talk...read the body language. What is in your hand? The leash is a pathway from you to the dog. Watching the body language of your dog speaks volumes. Have fun with it and keep us posted, you might just change my attitude towards the topic. After watching Julie do the things she has done with her dog, it have been floored, some great changes in the dog's behavior and how it handles environmentals. Like David said, the things you don't do are the builders too.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Reading for comprehension Howard. I would just like answers to questions that were asked to you numerous times . 

Videos offer a little insight into things but not much (they are fun to watch though) photos are damn near useless . Your attempt to make photos seem like a credible veiw into what and how you do things is funny though . 

Patiently awaiting your nonresponse and next colorful statement . It may distract some but not me .


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Carol Boche said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

If photos are bad, why use them in police work Jim? They do nothing in that venue, right? Am I also to assume that you are skilled enough to understand what I am doing in a video and with the dog? What was the reason for the moves? Sorry to upset you...Come out in person and then see it all. Then you can either say he knows or he's full of it...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> Howard Gaines III said:
> 
> 
> > I don't do pack work like Terry which is WHY I would never call him out on a handler certifying ON-LEAD. ....which is what you are doing.
> ...


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I was under the understanding that he was training the pup to add to the pack. 

I can say a lot about Bloods too...but they ARE just dogs. 

AND AGAIN...you cannot compare the on-leads to the pack work so it looks like you are fishing for things to post about and Terry is the target today....


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Typical Howard distraction to keep away from something he's afraid to answer .

I made it clear I'm not interested in photos or videos from you . Though I find your pushing photos over video is funny . I could get a photo of my Lab on a sleeve with a full bite looking like a maneater if I took enough photos . But the truth is he would have spit it out the moment the slightest presure was put on him . Hell , there have been rare occassions a photo was taken of me where others thought I was handsome . But that was 1 in a million . 


I just want answers to questions asked of you many times in the past . You know the one's originally asked by Terry and repeated by many others in the original Bloodhound thread that hurt your feelings so much . You danced around that like you have when others(not me) have asked for videos of you . 

I think you are impressed with how colorful your comments often are . Many people will fall for things if it simply SOUNDS good . Others want to know more about the person other then that they SOUND good , to find out if that person ACTUALLY knows what he's talking about . 

As for coming and seeing you work Howard that would be the best but you would have to make me feel I could learn something and it would be worth the trip . So far I'm not planning on one .

Your question to me about photos in LE are just distractions to get away from the topic of your avoidance and more proof of you avoidance . I've never talked about the importance of photos in what I do .


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I like the fact that Jim is part of a REALISTIC K9 television show that depicts what actually happens, it is not edited to show ONLY the good parts. I have learned all kinds of things from that and I have immense respect for them putting that out there. 

I don't care about Howard, his pics, or his videos really...I ask only because I KNOW he will never show them. Which, and I quote Jim, "speaks VOLUMES"


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Typing with one hand has got you going GOOD. LOL


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Typing with one hand has got you going GOOD. LOL


HAH..for this....the half cast/wrap came off...LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> OK, Julie did it with her "hound" and I see few of the "folks" giving her the just dues. Terry came on and kicked the can as I see it and she was part of the spillage. Dude, how are YOU making out with your dog and what is going on with your dog in the venue which you are using it? Not digging or ass busting, just looking for some FLAVOR to the new Julie post. ...


I don't really understand what this thread, that mods were asked to look at -- by non-posters in it -- is supposed to be about. Is it failure of somebody to congratulate Julie? What "folks"?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Howard was drinking again. He was taking a shot at Terry H. about the tracking thread a month ago or so.

Non posters crying to the Mods. WTF. Grow up and ask the man himself, ****ing sheep. Now there is a group that chemical neutering was invented for.

I say we boot those control freaks off the forum for being gutless wonders.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Howard was drinking again. He was taking a shot at Terry H. about the tracking thread a month ago or so. ... Non posters crying to the Mods. WTF. Grow up and ask the man himself, ****ing sheep. ....


No, _they_ got that it was a ridiculous opening post harking back to that thread (again), and were declining to honor it with responses, but I was wondering if there was some redeeming feature that everyone missed.

Because it really does look as though this is pretty accurate:


Carol Boche said:


> ... I don't do pack work like Terry which is WHY I would never call him out on a handler certifying ON-LEAD. ....which is what you are doing. ... If you yourself are not interested then WHY in the hell did you even start this thread? ...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I say we boot those control freaks off the forum for being gutless wonders.


Jeff before anyone boots me, they better take another hard and long look into your closet, the fact that you have 24/7 violated the forum rules in the spirit and the letter, and been kicked off of several other forums makes you top choice in my book. Refer to the bones boy...

Jim if I understood your position on photos, they were not important. You say you're a cop, with what department? State or LLE? The fact that you seem to show no value in pics, maybe I can showcase this to your Troop or Department Commander and see if this is something that THEY would have being said by one of their own, *having no value to photos*. I'll bet the sh&t would hit the fan on that one and past cases which used photos would....Photos have always been used and are part of anything important. So what makes mine anything less? Well!!!?

What is your or anyone elses background in assessing and understanding what you see? Not dancing here, but I wasn't born yesterday, photos are used on this forum and showcase lots of interesting stuff. Many folks post them, where are your photos doing currect bite work, or are you too old to even hold up a sleeve? Videos, I don't do because I don't have the computer background and tools....there simple. Also using a dial up service means that even single photos take 20+ minutes each to do...Come on now we all don't have your money! 

The offer stands, make the trip next weekend and be here. It MUST be that important to see me, and then tell everyone about your trip to the tax free state of Delaware!!! I'm also an hour from the beach and you can check out the chicks in thongs...if that's what floats yer boat.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Howard, you reading comprehension is scary bad. Good thing you are a shop teacher.

Which forums have I been kicked off of again ?? You have said several, and I am only on 4 total, and only really read one of them occasionally, as chicagoland has gotten pretty dull.

Re read what I wrote, and sound ALL the words out, and tell me again who I was talking about.

****ing skimmers. Howard you kill me, the skeletons in my closet have to do with forums I haven't been kicked off of ???

Tell me the story of your dogs live bites (in training) again Howard.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Looks like I'm still still in your head, popping on my threads...still following the GREAT GAINES. Grasshopper Jeff, without current pics, someone make him a bite suit to fit HIS ROYALITY!#-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is scary that you would be responsible for high school kids. They must not have certifications for shop teachers.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

You two are halarious. Getting your feathers ruffled about the least little thing. And I'm gona have to agree with several posts. How the hell do yall have time to do any thing with all the posting. Hell it would be a full time job just keeping up with and reading them all. Yall seem to point out the short comings of every one else. Weather it be choice of breed (your opinion) training methods, Calibur of dogs pedigree,what one chooses to train in. It doesn't matter what thread I read I consistantly see your names. And constant bashing along with that. I say prove your shit with out all the bs that your so accustomed to typing. But post some vids or numorous pics. Like stated above one pic of a dog on one sleeve doesn't prove any thing. How many pics had to be taken to find the right one. That was I think his point Mr. Gaines. Using the police analogy was pure shit. Thats all they have to work with. If they where there to take vids of it they would have stopped the crime then and would need no pics later. I mean wtf. I can see it now.Well your honor you see here Mr. perp was seen shooting Mrs cadaver (now) and then we followed them and filmed him bury her as well. In police work for the most part all you have to work with is the end result of the crime. And Jeff it pretty much don't matter what when or where your nothing but a know it all smart ass. 
Now let me give you boys something to bash on me with LOL I choose schutzhund. I've chosen to do this with an american bulldog puppy. Using videos and limited visits to a club I just found. And I know absolutely shit about what I'm doing for now. But I will learn. Oh and I'm fat. Use that in your bashing. I can't think of anything else right now. I'll let you know.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard , 

St. Paul , Minnesota . Go ahead . I answered your questions now please answer the ones asked of you in the earlier post by Terry and repeatedly asked again by others . Still trying to distract with an arguement about photos (the dance continues) . 

When you started this thread you stated Terry kicked the can .....yada yada yada . Again very colorful . 

The more you ramble the more of a joke your offer becomes . 

The more this goes on it looks like the only can that got kicked was by you and you openned your can of worms .


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jason, I am typing this slowly as I know you do not read fast. LOL What time are you talking about ?? How slow do you read ?? I do other work between posts, or just look for cool videos on you tube to post.

THis just took 1 minute and 20 seconds including reading all the posts that I missed. Remember, reading is fundamental.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

LOL good one. And nice try. You typed that as if I care what you think. My thoughts now are. I'm thinking that you feed off the negativity. Because it's the only way you can get some one to react with you. I'll give you this one more so maybe you can make it through the rest of the day but then I'm gona leave it up to every one else to keep feeding your ego or what ever it is you need to keep you going through the days.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jason, I am typing this slowly as I know you do not read fast. LOL What time are you talking about ?? How slow do you read ?? I do other work between posts, or just look for cool videos on you tube to post.
> 
> THis just took 1 minute and 20 seconds including reading all the posts that I missed. Remember, reading is fundamental.



cut him some slack. He's fat, has a bulldog and is trying to do schH on his own because he wants the best for his little bulldoggy that he loves so much. If I loved something as much, I certainly wouldn't put time in to knowingly screw it up. #-o

I love how noobs come around and thump their chest right after they admit they don't know a ****ing thing.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Let's play nice now boys and girls. 

DFrost


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Let's play nice now boys and girls.
> 
> DFrost


Darn.....:-# :-\" :lol:


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> cut him some slack. He's fat, has a bulldog and is trying to do schH on his own because he wants the best for his little bulldoggy that he loves so much. If I loved something as much, I certainly wouldn't put time in to knowingly screw it up. #-o
> 
> I love how noobs come around and thump their chest right after they admit they don't know a ****ing thing.


LOL and here comes the side kick to all the drama. When are you guys gona get together to form yalls super duper band of slanderous internet thugs. Don't worry Chris one day you will grow up to be just like your dady Jeff.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Let's play nice now boys and girls.
> 
> DFrost


Ok fine..I don't NEED another PM spanking from mod central!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jason Moore said:


> LOL and here comes the side kick to all the drama. When are you guys gona get together to form yalls super duper band of slanderous internet thugs. Don't worry Chris one day you will grow up to be just like your dady Jeff.


Your Daddy ain't your Daddy but your Daddy don't know:roll:


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Let's play nice now boys and girls.
> 
> DFrost


I'll add an apology. I just get tired of all the continuos bashing. I don't have a problem with constructive criticism and the telling of what one's doing wrong. IMHO if your going to tell some one they're doing something wrong. Explain to them how to do it right. JMO I know there is different ways to do every thing. And I love to see a debate on different ways to train. IMO it gives me more to work with when reading. And see what will work the best for me when I get to the next levels of training. I want to stay ahead while working and figuring out the present I'm also looking forward to the future and also trying to learn from the past. For the most part It seems best just to read and search for answers to your question rather than type your question and wate for answers because your thread will usually get so far off topic and make the poster so aggrivated that they forget the question at hand. Again JMHO.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Can you please relay information about this certifying agency and their testing requirements and test set up? I could not find anything using google. Anytime there is a police certifying agency it is good info to have since it is so hard for civilians to schedule tests and I think only NAPWDA, LETS, and IPWDA certify civilians, even with an agency sponsorship.

I have only heard of the following police organizations

USPCA
NAPWDA
LETS
IPWDA
NNDDA
NPBA


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Can you please relay information about this certifying agency ....


http://www.nleco.org/home.html

(There's a page of certification standards.)


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

*I found it this time and you should be eating crow rather than crowing.*

Good grief - 800-1200 yards and the trail must be 45 minutes old?

http://www.nleco.org/cert_tracking.html
The handler and dog will be secluded from view of the track while it is being laid. When the test begins the certifying official(s) will inform the handler of the approximate area to begin. The handler will not be told in which direction the track leads. There will be one (1) fresh track laid at least fifteen (15) minutes after the original track is laid. The cross track will be laid by a second person to test the dogs scent discrimination. The track must be at least 880 to 1200 yards and have at least two types of surfaces (dirt, grass, concrete, asphalt, woods, etc.). The track will be at least forty-five (45) minutes old before beginning the test, and have at least three (3) turns located in it. 

Due to climatic conditions, the age of the track will be at the discretion of the certifying official(s).

All tests given the K-9 teams will be a pass/fail basis. The certifying judge will determine if the team will be certified upon the completion of the test. The handler and dog will be considered as a team and it is the team who will be certified. If the dog changes handlers, a new team exists and the team will need to be certified.

*Come back after passing the NASAR SAR I trailing test if you want to rub peoples nose in anything. I am not saying there should be pride in passing the above test but this is basic, not amazing, stuff.*

Canine SARTECH I Trailing 
This examination and certification meets or exceeds the criteria of FEMA 508-8 Typed Resource Definitions – Search and Rescue Resources 11/14/2005. The Canine Team must be able to complete Wilderness AND Urban.

Wilderness – Trail and locate a single stationary subject in a wilderness environment, which has traveled between 1 and 1 ½ miles in length, within 3 hours, including breaks. Track will be aged between 24-30 hours.
AND
Urban – Trail and locate a single stationary subject in an urban environment, who has traveled between 1 and 1 ½ miles in length, within 3 hours, including breaks. Track will be aged between 24-30 hours.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Well Well I turn my back for a few days and the rib sticking begins. Now Howard what have you got your drawers in a wad about this time. I read through this thread and so far I havent seen anything that would cause me to be impressed. I am very happy that Julie has earned a certification of sorts and congratulate her for doing so; however, as stated before I am totally unimpressed with certifications. Let me know when you have something to share from the real world.

If I read your posts correctly you seemed to have a degree of interest in how the training of the Bloodhound pup is going. To make a long story short she is doing fairly well but not nearly as well as one of the pack dogs that we switched to leash. Granted he was already a seasoned tracker off-lead and had a head start on her. We have been doing a lot of tracks in congested areas with a lot of contamination and they are doing well. Blackie, the the pack dog we switched seems to really like to work on leash. He still opens on track which cracks me up. Every time he loses and regains the track he will bawl his head off.

Now Howard, lets keep things in context here. The Bloodhound team I observed had a lot of experience in the real world and also agrees there is a lot of un-cut BS in the world of tracking dogs. The tracks we worked were designed only to determine if a dog was capable of identifying a scent after various amounts of time. This particular dog operated by this particular handler obviously had a lot of talent and surpassed what I had seen in the past. 

Frankly, I am at a loss as to why your panties are out of place. When this all started I simply stated I had never witnessed a dog run a 24 hr track and would like to do so and had no problem traveling to see it. As it turned out a very talented man who I have come to respect a great deal saved me the effort and came to me. I have already shared what I learned so there is no point beating a dead horse.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Terry Holstine said:


> Well Well I turn my back for a few days and the rib sticking begins. Now Howard what have you got your drawers in a wad about this time. I read through this thread and so far I havent seen anything that would cause me to be impressed. I am very happy that Julie has earned a certification of sorts and congratulate her for doing so; however, as stated before I am totally unimpressed with certifications. Let me know when you have something to share from the real world.
> 
> If I read your posts correctly you seemed to have a degree of interest in how the training of the Bloodhound pup is going. To make a long story short she is doing fairly well but not nearly as well as one of the pack dogs that we switched to leash. Granted he was already a seasoned tracker off-lead and had a head start on her. We have been doing a lot of tracks in congested areas with a lot of contamination and they are doing well. Blackie, the the pack dog we switched seems to really like to work on leash. He still opens on track which cracks me up. Every time he loses and regains the track he will bawl his head off.
> 
> ...


i don't care what anyone else thinks, IMHO, THIS is a classic, classy rebuttal to a totally unclassy attempt to start, in a word, "drama".

if ppl here want BS drama, go to the PDB. this has not been a productive thread. JMHO.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Hey Ann,
Not totally a loss! I got to know of what Terry does with his dogs and I got to respect a guy that goes out of his way to learn something he had doubts about. That a lesson of humility many could use.
Mike


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I had some early problems with Terry's first posts, but it is very interesting and I hope Terry stays to give us insights on what he is learning with working older trails, particularly very contaminated as they usually are -- the one thing that got me in the article about his unit is the success rate -- which is very high from what I have heard is typical for police tracking. 

The main issue I have seen with the bloodhounds is a lot of crittering - and having to pull them in from that [At least everyone I have seen - when the trail gets light, tendency to find another interesting animal scent and follow it]. Not sure if that is a "hound" thing or even a valid observation. At least on old stuff. Maybe a dog that already is hardwired for the chase, like his existing hound has an easier time blowing past that stuff. 

It seems more so than the herding dogs I have seen. But more of the herding dogs I have seen have more of a natural tendency to air scent than the hounds. Once again - the observations could mean a hill of beans because the "sampling" may not be enough dogs to generalize.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Nancy,
Your observation about ''herding dogs'' and airscenting may have something to it. We always trained our dogs to track before introducing them to free searching because many of them would resort to airscenting first before even trying the track. 
What now interests me is the age of track and how soon we could get the dogs to train on 2 1/2 hours and older tracks in basic training. We always tended to stay (in my opinion) too long on the 1- 1 1/2 hour zone and now I think that once the dog knows what tracking is we should push him to 6 hours and up and let him realize that this is also something he should follow and not disregard. I think the mistake we made for a long time was to think there was no odor, but now I am thinking that the dog wasn't indicating because we hadn't encouraged him on that old track, so he would disregard it.
Like I said it is just my opinion and I worked with GSD, not bloodhounds but I still think GSDs could track older tracks then what we have been doing if we changed our training. 
Mike


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We also start all the dogs with trailing first - and I think more people in SAR dog that than used to - of debate is how much is necessary if the intent for a dog destined for airscent work is to be able to pick up and follow a fresh trail if they hit one while gridding an area [victims often move] instead of ignore it. For that approach to be of value, the dogs are trained scent discrimination through the early trailing excercises**. The trailing dogs continue their trailing with more difficult problems. The airscent dogs learn to either work with a scent article to find the specific person or without one to find anyone in the search area.

I know we have trained for 24 hour tracks in a wilderness setting with GSDs and other breeds, and the best way to build up to the aging is to mix it up so the dog is not always looking at something older and harder each time they work. So after a hard problem, the next one may be short and motivational. 

But, as Terry said, training is not necessarily the real thing - I would have to look at our search reports to see the oldest trail actually followed by one of our dogs on a search; I know which search, and it was a GSD, but do not know the timing, other thanit was quite a few hours into it and had a very contaminated LKP [on that search the PLS was not reliable].

The set up becomes more critical as the trails get older as the scent can really move. My own experience was that a 12 hour track set at night and ran in the morning is a lot easier than a 2 hour track set at noon and run at 2. And, learned the hard way, try to only modify one variable at a time - Also, you have to take into account impact of environment on scent more, for example, if you work an old trail across a field, you may lose it in the field and have to work into the woods around the perimeter of the field to pick up the exit point. 

**A difference there because with SAR the assumption is that the start point is ridiculously contaminated. I don't know how you get going with something a few hours old without having either a pristine starting point or a scent article.


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

Mike, I have done a lot of work with older tracks of late. I agree with your assessment of dogs ignoring older tracks in some cases. I think dogs have been wired to do this through thousands of yrs. of evolution. It is simply a energy conservation issue, imagine a dog attempting to track a prey animal that has been gone twenty four hrs. I think there would be much tracking and very little eating.

My dogs limit was 4-6 hrs prior to watching the bloodhound work. Since that time I have them working 8-10 hr tracks with ease. When I first started really encouraging them to start these aged tracks, they would identify then come back to me as if to say, Yep he's there but its going to be a long drawn out affair. It was only after I started getting on the ground with them and started hissing them on the track that they started running the 8-10 hr tracks. I dont think I want to push past 10 hrs with the pack dogs because they are not scent specific. We will find the limits of the capabilities of the dogs we are training on leash.

I also agree that dogs should be worked on older tracks early in their training. I have always babied the pups too much and kept them on tracks less than two hrs until they are 18 mo. old. I think this is a mistake and a trainer should push the limits early on. Of cours one must be careful to do it in such a way that success is achieved on each track.

Nancy, if i read your post correctly you thought our success rate was higher than what would normally be expected in law enforcement. I can tell you straight up, it is way higher than most LE canine teams. The reason it is so high is this. We have dogs that will really track a man every day all day long. They usually track ( hot ) at the rate of 5 min per mile. We also have the capability to stay with them at this speed so we are there when the dogs overtake the perp. Also most of our tracks are rural which helps. We also have a lot of support from our road Troopers who have become very good at getting perimiters in place quickly and effectively. We have an intel team that has most of the perps identified by the time I arrive. Once the perp is identified, his contacts are covered. A few other things are done that I will not discuss here. So, yes the success rate is high as it should be. We chase folks that are a real threat to the well being of people I care a great deal about. In my opinion every state should have this capability, I believe the future holds a period of time where violence of all description will be commonplace. Some of this will be done by folks that are very talented at escape and evasion. I believe law enforcement agencies all across this country are asleep at the wheel and have no idea what they are about to be hit with. Ther are previews around that you can look to. The Los Angeles Bank shootout and Bucky Phillips in New York comes to mind. Both were examples of police being totally unprepared. There are folks coming at us that will make these look like chiorboys. Well, this may be nothing more than the rantings of an old wore-out hillbilly, we shall see.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Terry Holstine said:


> Well, this may be nothing more than the rantings of an old wore-out hillbilly, we shall see.


I don't completely agree with you that law enforcement is asleep at the wheel. However, I do think your assessment of what is yet to come is frighteningly accurate.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've been preaching what Terry has for a few years now . With the economy and folks coming back from the war I believe we will have more educated suspects to deal with . The use of suppressive gunfire I believe is something most departments should be prepared for amongst other things .


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## Terry Holstine (Aug 5, 2008)

David, watch the news coverage of the border drug wars. These people already possess and routinely deploy amored vehicles and weapons law enforcement in the U.S. is not prepared to deal with. Rocket propelled grenades are getting to be more common than one might think. There are sniper systems that I am intimately aware of that will make any sane LE officer wet his pants if he knowingly is required to go after the operator of this system. Frankly the only thing LE can do if confronted with a highly trained and motivated user of this system is to go crawl in a hole and hope nothing is exposed. Money can buy just about anything on the black market. The drug cartels have lots of it and I predict you will begin seeing TOW and Stinger missles in the hands of of these people and anyone else that wants one and has the financial resources to obtain them. So start watching the news and very soon you will see the image of a pile of smoking junk that once was the patrol car of some officer who had the misfortune of stopping someone armed with a missle system. Also watch for a skilled sniper to flip out and go to and fro killing officers at will until he tires of the game and either kills himself or quietly slips away never to be heard from again.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

RPGs getting into this country also scare me because of security at nuclear plants and regular failures of security scenarios.

The plants themselves can handle them but my understanding is that the containment walls of the cooling ponds for spent fuel rods can be breached by an RPG and that the used rods are hot enough to melt down.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Also watch for a skilled sniper to flip out and go to and fro killing officers at will until he tires of the game and either kills himself or quietly slips away never to be heard from again.

Maybe this will make people stop calling the idiots that shoot and miss from buildings and whatever from calling them snipers.

All the snipers I know would truely make a mess of things and never be seen again. But then again, I really doubt any of them are going to flip out.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Terry Holstine said:


> David, watch the news coverage of the border drug wars. These people already possess and routinely deploy amored vehicles and weapons . .



None of this is new Terry. Intel isn't as asleep as some think. We do get the intel reports on a regular basis. We're aware of what is out there. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is in the newspaper here.


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

It took me forever to read this post and I have a few bones to pick with a few people. I'm also going to put everyones questions about god darn videos to rest too! 

First off Jim, are you one of the cops that are on that Animal Planet show about the K-9 dogs? I think someone wrote that they liked the tv thing and something about not editing and showing "real life" . I have watched the show and if you are part of that group I'm not really impressed. I heard that this tv K-9 groups is one of the best in the USA, well if that's the case then we are all screwed. Maybe the days I was watching were off days for them. Second, about the DAMN VIDEOS! Howard doesn't have high speed internet and it would take forever to download, if he didn't get kicked off first. I just recently got high speed and i will be taking videos of all the dogs at training and I will post them on either u-tube or this site. Just be patient and give me a couple of weeks okay!](*,)

Carol, First I want to thank you for your praise. I do have a little problem with the on-lead comment. My dog didn't cert on lead. She works both on and off lead. Not quite sure how that makes a difference but thought you should know.

And finally Nancy,:evil: you have really struck my nerve! Where do you get off dimminishing someone else's achievements! I would do the SARTECH I if someone would give me the chance, but no one will! I have a former friend of my mother that passed her SARTECH I and her dog was honored for her service during the Pentagon search after 9/11. She has viewed my dog and says she would have no problem with the SARTECH I. But like I've said before, the two SAR groups in my area are more interested in politics and graphs than working the dogs. That's not what I want! I understand that NLECO might not look like much to you, but it is recognized by every law enforcement agency in the NATION! Someone once told me that when you test your dog you don't push them to the ultimate limit. You go up to the bare essentials so you don't set your dog up for failure. I'm probally explaining this wrong and if I am maybe Andy can explain it better. I think you're very ignorant for trying to take the winds out of my sails, but that also goes to show which direction you moral compass points in. I am proud of my accomplishments and if you think they aren't up to "YOUR LEVEL" than thank you for that. 

Just a reminder Terry (in case you didn't know) Bloodhounds are pretty slow on-lead. You want her/him to pick it up a little, take her off the lead. My female is way fatster off lead that on. It's like she really likes that freedom to go full tilt and not have to worry about the 2 legged thing holding her back on the end of the leash. Also most Bloodhounds are silent on the track. They don't usually open up in a bawl. Maybe at the end when they find something, but not on the track. That's why they are called the "silent trackers". Just a little info for you if you didn't already know.

I understand that you all are a little upset with Howard but he does mean well. He is very proud of me and Lulu's accomplishments. I get a little upset when people keep hounding him about things. If you don't think he's a good decoy that your business. I think the man is full of helpful information and I really take what he says to heart. But I guess this is just one of those times where we (and you know who you are) will agree to disagree.

Thanks again for the praise!

Julie :-\"


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Wow , been gone awhile and comes back swinging ! Congratultions on your successes , but to be honest you're coming off sounding like a little snot .

Read up on our history and see the prices some of our Hanlders and K9s have paid taking violent criminals off the street . 

http://tthompson.artechschool.org/Project Ideas/Laser K9.htm

Much of the information in the link was given by the suspect himself during his confession to the crimes .


St. Paul Police Minnesota
1998
Suspects in Wisconsin killing arrested, but shoot police dog. Two St. Paul men suspected in the
weekend shooting death of a 61-year-old Wisconsin man were arrested on the East Side Tuesday
following a short foot chase and shoot-out in which a police dog was killed.
Police authorities said a witness to the Wisconsin shooting tipped them that the men, identified by
Police as Paul E. Hawkins, 49, and Edward E. Rollins, 42, were staying in a house on Beech Street
near Arcade Street.
The Public Information Officer said investigators recovered two guns, including one believed to be
the weapon used to shoot Peter Barton in Earl, Wis., on Saturday.
Police believe the weapon that Rollins allegedly used to shoot the police dog also killed Barton. He
was hauling away garbage for neighbors when he apparently interrupted a burglary Saturday. His
body was found tied to a tree in woods behind the neighbor's home at Earl, which is northeast of
Spooner in northwestern Wisconsin.
Rollins was taken to Regions Hospital in St. Paul for treatment of dog bites.
Rollins is expected to face charges today in the shooting death of the police dog, Calahan. The
suspects eventually will face extradition to Washburn County in the Wisconsin case.
Alley Shoot-out
Police were waiting when the two men arrived at a house on Beech Street about 2:15 p.m. The
suspects ran into an alley behind the house. Police said that Rollins hid in bushes and that the dog
was sent in after him. The dog ran in two more shots occurred and the dog didn't come out again.
Information given said Rollins was bitten several times and then shot the dog at least three times at
point-blank range. Officers fired into the bushes but missed. No officers were hurt.
Police Chief William Finney credited Calahan with possibly saving the lives of officers by drawing
fire and disabling Rollins.
"We regard St. Paul Police canines as members of the family," Finney said. "This is a loss to the St.
Paul Police family."
Foot chase
Police said that during the gun battle with Rollins, Hawkins ran down the alley to E. 7th St. and
Arcade , where he entered the office of Ramsey County Community Corrections and Human
Services at 710 Arcade St he asked workers in the building if he could use the bathroom, then
allegedly dropped the gun on the bathroom floor. Police arrested him as he tried to leave the
building. The gun was recovered.
"I think we were really fortunate that all he wanted to do was go in the bathroom, drop the weapon
and get out of here," said Peggy Powers, who heads the Arcade probation office. "Had we seen the
weapon we would have reacted differently."
She said the suspect spent about 10 minutes in the office building, which he probably didn't realize
housed corrections officials."I think he had no idea, it probably just looked bigger than the sub shop
next door," Powers said.
Washburn County Sheriff Terry Dryden, who came to St. Paul after the arrests, said the two men
are suspects in a series of burglaries.
He said that as many as four people were involved in the Barton shooting and that at least one more
arrest is possible.
Authorities think a woman, who tipped Police that Rollins and Hawkins were in St. Paul, and
another man were involved in at least the burglaries. They would not say what role each person
played.
Dryden said it appeared that the suspects, who live in St. Paul, targeted homes in rural areas. At
least one of the men arrested was intoxicated at the time Barton was shot, Dryden said.

Ron and Nipper were friends and cops I looked up to . I also took many bites from Calahan and he was 1 great dog . He found the suspect and the investigators credit him with saving their lives at the time because they didn't know he was there. They also thought the first shots were meant for them but the dog engaged him and he redirected to the dog . Our unit has worked hard to remain the unit Nipper worked so hard to get to a high level . We have several dogs of that calibre in our unit now . The attention we get is well deserved . 

I don't need to impress you . Impressing someone who lets her defensiveness dictate the stupid stuff that comes out of her mouth is not someone I care to impress anyways. The Officers on my department and the citizens of the city I work for are the ones I care to impress and they are . Our Successes speak for themselves . 


Our dogs have found countless violent criminals many have been shot , stabbed , struck , you name it . Some of the Officers and dogs on that show , along with past handlers have recovered from serious injuries while finding and confronting suspects . 

Just this year our Officers , citizens and City Council people have come forward when budget cuts threatened to take away from the K9 Unit . Like they've done in the past . No cuts were made . We don't get that kind of support without producing .Those our the folks I care to impress . You're Not impressed ! What a joke .


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> ... First off Jim, are you one of the cops that are on that Animal Planet show about the K-9 dogs? I think someone wrote that they liked the tv thing and something about not editing and showing "real life" . I have watched the show and if you are part of that group I'm not really impressed. I heard that this tv K-9 groups is one of the best in the USA, well if that's the case then we are all screwed. ...


I have to admit that I was struck speechless by this statement. No idea how to respond to it or even to decide if response was warranted.

Thank you, Jim, for taking the time and trouble.

Julie, I don't have the words or the oomph to explain to you how incredibly offensive I found that statement. I guess that Jim was right that it came from being defensive, but still .... I urge that you consider re-reading posts like that before hitting the "submit reply" button.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> First off Jim, are you one of the cops that are on that Animal Planet show about the K-9 dogs? I think someone wrote that they liked the tv thing and something about not editing and showing "real life" . I have watched the show and if you are part of that group I'm not really impressed. I heard that this tv K-9 groups is one of the best in the USA, well if that's the case then we are all screwed.
> Julie :-\"




I think it would be interesting to know your level of expertise in the area of police service dogs. It would be interesting to know the number of times the dogs you've trained have faced armed individuals that were determined to escape or fight. If you don't have any experience, other than watching cops or Jim Belushi in K9, then your statements were made from total ignorance. I'd like to know (I'm not in that unit, but I have watched all the shows that aired) exactly what part(s) were not impressive. Since I only have limited experience training and working police service dogs, your input could be valuable to me. To help you be brief, just explain the instances where the dogs were performing less than "impressive", and then explain how you have trained and deployed dogs in similar situations. You know what you did personally that made them better. I'm anxiously awaiting your guidance.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Since I only have limited experience training and working police service dogs, your input could be valuable to me. ... explain how you have trained and deployed dogs in similar situations. You know .... what you did personally that made them better. I'm anxiously awaiting your guidance.
> 
> DFrost


Good. You were not struck as speechless as I was.


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Well maybe my comment was a little harsh but that is how I feel and if you don't like it oh well. As both of you know I have not handled dogs that are real K-9, the only K-9 I have had any contact with is Andy's dog and I am real impressed by him. Jim maybe you guys are good but the few episodes I saw didn't show me much. Like I said before maybe that was an off day. I understand that these officers and dogs risk their lives everyday taking dangerous people off the streets, but to say you're the best maybe over reaching. Good yes, the best the jury is still out. You're right you don't need to impress but like everyone here I am entitled to my opinion and why should I hold back when no one else does. Doesn't feel too good when someone is slamming your person does it. Maybe you all should keep that in mind when you're jumping all over howard for putting his opinion forward.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie , Thanks . 

Nipper was a cop that I looked up to . He was larger then life and in the short time I knew him he taught me things as a young Patrol Officer . He was one of the guys in the unit that set the standard for all of us . The word was if he gave you sh*% he thought you were a good cop . If he didn't talk to you he didn't . I guess he liked me . I hope so anyways he taught me alot . 

I grew up with Ron . Played pick up hockey with him. He was a Hill Murray HS guy I was a St Paul Harding HS Guy . Eastside all the way . We also went to college together and had some Law Enforcement classes together . Contrary to the article he made his mark quickly . Won one of our highest awards for valor . Climbed into a house fire to rescue people . They made a human latter to get in . He was on only about a year when he died . I was the class behind him and on only 6 months when it happen . 

I was also one of the first on scene after he was shot . I came from a different district and didn't know the whole story because it was very busy and I was on a different channel when the 1st shooting occurred . I didn't even know it was Ron when I saw him .

Initially most of our Officers were tied up on maintaining the huge perimeter we set up . I was one of a few that started looking for him answering suspicious calls called in by residents (open doors , broken windows to vacant house , anything that may involve the suspect ). I was only about a month off FTO and foolishly went hunting for him without backup . 

Nipper arrived and we winded up at a same call . When I saw him I thought " We got the f^*@er now ! " . 

I foolishly left him to investigate a call (open door to a garage) . Right after leaving him Laser must have picked up the track . He was shot 1 yard away from me but I didn't hear it because the search helicopter was flying low overhead . The helicopter spotted him and the dog . When I got there I was nearly shot by a neighboring departments officer . The bullets hitting the grass to my left . 

Several Officers layed down cover fire on the shack to retrieve Nip and get him help . I think Nip thought the icehouse was a storage shed and couldn't figure out why Laser was alerting on a shed with a locked boltlock on the outside . But it's just a guess . 

It was the K9 Officers on scene that took control and slowed everyone down at that point keeping us safe . 

Calahan was a tough dog that I was bound and determined to be able to someday stay on my feet when he hit me . I never got the chance . 

He had recently found a suspect that shot a suburban K9 and fled . We assisted in doing an article search of areas after the original agency cleared areas with their K9's and SWAT teams . During the article search his dog pulled him into a large staorage building and began trying to climbing a wall and barking in towards the rafters . 

The SWAT team was called back and found the guy up there . 

He was a great dog and his Handler was just as great . He was a trainer when I was and we made sure we did everthing we could to keep our unit great . Because we knew EXACTLY HOW IMPORTANT IT WAS . He had to leave K9 after blowing out his knee decoying a hard hitting dog .

We never said we were the best Animal Planet did . Julie's statements are an insult to our past and current Officers and K9's .


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> Well maybe my comment was a little harsh but that is how I feel and if you don't like it oh well. As both of you know I have not handled dogs that are real K-9, the only K-9 I have had any contact with is Andy's dog and I am real impressed by him. Jim maybe you guys are good but the few episodes I saw didn't show me much. Like I said before maybe that was an off day. I understand that these officers and dogs risk their lives everyday taking dangerous people off the streets, but to say you're the best maybe over reaching. Good yes, the best the jury is still out. You're right you don't need to impress but like everyone here I am entitled to my opinion and why should I hold back when no one else does. Doesn't feel too good when someone is slamming your person does it. Maybe you all should keep that in mind when you're jumping all over howard for putting his opinion forward.


Has it occurred to you that your opinion as stated (not just of the TV show, but, as you clearly said, the working LEOs represented, making us all "screwed") is 100% uninformed?

Opinions of tracking, etc., have been expressed by people with knowledge of and experience with it.

If all this to defend Howard, you are making a mistake. Not only is it ineffective and not only does it make Howard appear to be hiding behind you (and I _really_ doubt that he is), but he is capable of handling his own defense.

Back to your statements about LE in general, that kind of ignorant (uninformed, inexperienced) attack won't be tolerated here. Period.

I'm not one to be this angry over a ridiculous web post. Yours has way overstepped the bounds.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> .... Julie's statements are an insult to our past and current Officers and K9's .


Yes, they are. The initial post was sort of explainable by saying that it was uncontrolled defensiveness. 

The second post solidified Julie's position.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> . As both of you know I have not handled dogs that are real K-9, the only K-9 I have had any contact with is Andy's dog and I am real impressed by him. Jim maybe you guys are good but the few episodes I saw didn't show me much. .


So with little experience, having never handled a "real K-9" (your words) you can make a broad statement such as you did. I'm really curious, what it would take to impress you with police dogs. I'm talking running, gunning, sweating, kicking, swearing, bleeding folks that don't want to get caught, not the training field. Where have you been impressed with dogs in situations replicating the dogs on the show that you can measure those dogs as "less than impressive". What did you measure the dog's performance against. Since it wasn't your level of experience, as you've already stated, please describe to me what an impressive performance would look like. I'm not talking about the training field now. Hell anyone can look good there. I've even, on rare occasion looked good on the training field. I'm just looking for a guide so I can measure an impressive actual deployment.

You are correct in that you can have an opinion. That being true, others have the right to challenge that opinion and point out the ignorance in which an opinion is formed.

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> I would do the SARTECH I if someone would give me the chance, but no one will! I have a former friend of my mother that passed her SARTECH I and her dog was honored for her service during the Pentagon search after 9/11. She has viewed my dog and says she would have no problem with the SARTECH I.


Who is this person that was honored for her service during the Pentagon search after 9/11?

And honestly, I don't know you, but I would suspect from your attitude here on this forum that there is a specific reason why nobody will give you the chance.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Julie Argo said:


> Carol, First I want to thank you for your praise. I do have a little problem with the on-lead comment. My dog didn't cert on lead. She works both on and off lead. Not quite sure how that makes a difference but thought you should know.
> 
> 
> 
> Just a reminder Terry (in case you didn't know) Bloodhounds are pretty slow on-lead.


First....ugh....who dredged up this thread???!!! ](*,)](*,)

Second, you are welcome. 

Third...there are differences in the body carriage (IMO) for on-lead and off-lead.....and by the way I read the post that started this whole mess....it sounded like you were certifying on-lead....BUT....back to my original thoughts....there was NO reason to call Terry out on shit like this as his style is completely different. Now, if you were to REALLY WANT his advice and opinions, then that would be different. 

Fourth...not sure what hounds you work with but ALL the ones I have handled HAUL ASS on lead and I have to slow them down. A nice steady ground eating jog is what I train the dogs to do gradually....and when they hit *HOT* scent....it is a challenge to keep them slow enough that I do not fall and break something. 

WHICH, is why I would love to go and run with Terry and his pack....it is INTERESTING to me and I would LEARN something. Imagine that!!!!


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Well Konnie, her name is Sandy Summerfield and she is with East Coast K-9 and her dog SAR(that's the dog's name) were requested duing 9/11 and was honored at Westmienster later. She was the only dog from our area that was requested. 
Like I already said before maybe the few times I watched the show it was a slow day or an off day, but it didn't seem all that great. Also about not saying your the best but putting that on Animal Planet, did anyone step up and correct them or did you all just go with it? To you all know it alls' my opinion might seem "100% wrong" but it is my opinion and I'm intitled to it. I guess this whole thing shows who is "liked" and who isn't. I'm not trying to diminsh your past or your future. I understand and respect what K-9 offers do every day. I just don't agree with the show and if you all are really as good as everyone says you are that show is doing you all no justice. 
I was just watching a clip on youtube with the French police dogs. It's labeled CRAZY POLICE DOGS. check it out. That really impressed me. But I guess I'v p%^&ed off too many people for it to matter. I defend Howard because I believe you all get way off target. I've read numerous posts where either Howard and Andy were attacked or just Howard and I think it's stupid. Everyone is intiled to their own thoughts and it seems like you guys only want to hear the ones that you agree with and that's bulls*&(!!!!
Guess I'm on the same s*&^ list that Howard's on. At least I'm in good company!!!!


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

Sorry if I sounded like I was getting on Terry's shit, but I really wasn't. I was just offering some information that compared to pack dogs that are "free to run" the bloodhound on lead will be a little slower due to the two-legged fool at the end of the lead that can't keep up. No need to bite anyone's head off. ANd with Lulu's track she started on lead and was then taken off lead. So she did both I guess.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"To you all know it alls' my opinion might seem "100% wrong" but it is my opinion and I'm intitled to it. I guess this whole thing shows who is "liked" and who isn't. "_

Read again. It was "100% uninformed."

You didn't comment only on the TV show. Anyone can have an informed opinion about TV. We all watch TV.

Your comment was: _"I heard that this tv K-9 groups is one of the best in the USA, well if that's the case then we are all screwed."_

Your continuing comments grow more and more ridiculous and defensive.

"Liked" and "disliked"? Give me a break. This isn't junior high school. :roll:

Again, your "defense" of Howard does Howard no favors at all.

I'd take a walk and cool off if I were you.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> She was the only dog from our area that was requested.


Define "our area," please. FEMA teams from what I would consider to be "your area" were at the Pentagon, with several dogs per team. Perhaps our definitions differ.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I LOVE being the two legged fool....thanks for that compliment. And, just for the record....I can keep up with my hound....did it for a LONG time with the young ones that I have placed. 

I am taking a break....feeling REALLY antagonistic and ready to pop a friggin cork...so I probably won't be back to this thread.....


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## Julie Argo (Feb 22, 2009)

I am aware that FEMA was there but Sandy and SAR were requested by name not group. No one else from East Coast k-9 was asked to go. The two-legged fool was not a dig, that is how I refer to myself. I can keep up with my dog too and I don't slow her down unless we are in a little rough terrain and even then I usually take her off lead so she can fly. Yes the "liked" comment is high school isn't it. but isn't all this bantering too? I call it like I see it straight down the middle and truth hurts don't it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Argo said:


> ... Yes the "liked" comment is high school isn't it. but isn't all this bantering too? I call it like I see it straight down the middle and truth hurts don't it.


:roll: 

Nothing in your post "hurts" --- except for being painfully embarrassed for you.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Ditto!!!
...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> First....ugh....who dredged up this thread???!!! ](*,)](*,) ....



:lol: Guess.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Julie - Tell you what I was proud for you of certfiying your dog. Any certification is an accomplishment but it was your "in your face attitude" about passing a basic level trailing certification test. THAT was the whole thing that caused my "if you want to rub peoples nose in it" statement. Your friggin attitude.

The most dangerous person out there is the one who "knows everything" and has the "best" dog. Egos have a way of backfiring.

Personally this whole thread stinks from all the BS.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Julie - Tell you what I was proud for you of certfiying your dog. Any certification is an accomplishment but it was your "in your face attitude" about passing a basic level trailing certification test. THAT was the whole thing that caused my "if you want to rub peoples nose in it" statement. Your friggin attitude.
> 
> The most dangerous person out there is the one who "knows everything" and has the "best" dog. Egos have a way of backfiring.
> 
> Personally this whole thread stinks from all the BS.


Nancy, this whole thread does stink. From the O.P. complaining that the congratulations on the accomplishment were insufficient (_'I see few of the "folks" giving her the just dues'_), creating a new thread just to complain about perceived lack of compliments on another thread .....

But OK, a mentor was trying to scratch up some additional glory for his protege by dumping on someone else. It's actually a pretty understandable and human thing.

Jennifer's response was really a good wrap-up:


Jennifer Coulter said:


> Howard,
> 
> I find this post a bit dissapointing. Julie has a right to be proud of her recent accomplishment. She shows great enthusiasm for the breed and her tracking work.
> 
> ...


The thread didn't get a lot better, but at least it died out.

Now, _a month later_, it's raised from the dead with a post that includes this:


Julie Argo said:


> ... First off Jim, are you one of the cops that are on that Animal Planet show about the K-9 dogs? I think someone wrote that they liked the tv thing and something about not editing and showing "real life" . I have watched the show and if you are part of that group I'm not really impressed. *I heard that this tv K-9 groups is one of the best in the USA, well if that's the case then we are all screwed.* ....


This is the kind of stuff that hits us in the face in the future like next-morning stories about "You were so funny last night when you were drunk!" Maybe closing the thread will save Julie from any more embarrassing posts, because she doesn't seem to be able to reign it in on her own. :-(


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Julie stated ;

" I heard that this tv K-9 groups is one of the best in the USA, well if that's the case then we are all screwed. "

then stated ;

" I'm not trying to diminsh your past or your future. I understand and respect what K-9 offers do every day. "

Respect huh ? Your first statement doesn't sound all that respectful . 


Julie stated ;

" I just don't agree with the show and if you all are really as good as everyone says you are that show is doing you all no justice. "



Maybe this will help . Since the other incidents I brought up didn't impress you .

http://www.uspcak9.com/awards/2007PatrolCaseOfTheYear.pdf

http://www.uspcak9.com/awards/2003-4th-patrol.cfm



Medal of Merit Class B 
Established 1972
Awarded to a member for a highly creditable, unusual police accomplishment.


May 26, 1998

Sergeant Charles K Anderson
Sergeant Neil P. Nelson
Sergeant Richard J. Munoz
Officer Timothy P. Lynaugh
For courage and dedication in effecting the arrest of four murder suspects. The officers were clearly in harm’s way. Officer Lynaugh’s K-9, Callahan, was shot and killed by one of the suspects.


September 26, 2002

Officer James Nash
For actions exempliying professionalism at its best. You and your K-9 partner Mic assisted at a home invasion call. You encountered the suspect who was pointing a gun at the victim. Ignoring your commands to drop the gun the suspect turned the gun on you. You began to squeeze the trigger on your Glock but another victim got into your line of fire, you refrained from shooting and the suspect ran away. You and Mic then tracked and apprehended the suspect. You exercised quick and sound judgment in a deadly force situation.


http://wcco.com/crime/man.shot.cops.2.979131.html


You're right Julie our city is "screwed" we don't do too much .


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Julie - Tell you what I was proud for you of certfiying your dog. Any certification is an accomplishment but it was your "in your face attitude" about passing a basic level trailing certification test. THAT was the whole thing that caused my "if you want to rub peoples nose in it" statement. Your friggin attitude. ....


Yes. I feel almost silly now for having offered congratulations. (Not really. I just wish I had had the dog's email address instead. :lol: )

We all say stupid stuff sometimes. But maybe this particular stream of BS can end here. Anyone who feels that they did not have sufficient time to respond here, please PM me or any mod. For now, let's close this. (I'm feeling a tad judgmental, and maybe others are, too -- and would rather not.  )



P.S. Jim, believe me when I say that you didn't have to post what you did to impress me. I suspect that the derogatory comments in Julie's post were the opinions of one person only.


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