# What would you expect from these lines?



## Bernt Lundby

I am getting a pup (bitch) from this pedigree. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/belgian_malinois/breeding.result?fadir=736473&modir=561042

I don't know much about breeding. It was not long ago I selected a puppy only by the titles of the parents, and I got an unstable male that did not have the nerve to handle mondioring. This time I have gotten help from an experienced handler in my club (Neal Wallis), who reserved the pup for me.

As you can see, it is pure belgian and mondioring lines (no SCH or IPO). I have high hopes for this puppy because I know the mother Abbata is a very good producer, and has had very good litters with Zep (grandfather) previously. Debou brings in the lines of Urosh and Nelson on his mothers side. These are tough and dominant dogs that also seem to be proven producers. Joefarm are of course experienced and very well known breeder who will socialize the pups properly etc.

Anyone know of dogs from similar lines?

Bernt


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think that Neil will definately get you going in the right direction. Tell him I said Hi.


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## Beth Allen

Hi Bernt,
I currently have a litter that is is Nelton on both side's. Amber vom Tristate is out of Ulani van Joefarm a retired hard working K9 and a Nelton son. All of the puppies have been great. You can work them and live with them. They match what ever your level of activity is. I think you will be very pleased with your puppy. Please keep us updated..
Have fun and happy Mondoring Beth
www.whatagoodpuppy.net
I also have photo's and pedigrees listed on www.working-dog.eu under Amber vom Tristate and look at children listed from her name.


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## Bernt Lundby

Thank you for the replies.

I am bored not having a dog until the end of may, and am sitting around doing "research" on the pedigree of my new puppy.

Of course I trust Neal's advice in this and think my chances of getting a good puppy are high  

More generally, I am trying to learn about the different lines. 

http://www.working-dog.eu/stamm-baum/64329/Debou-van-Joefarm

On the fathers side: _Debou _is MR3 on the belgian team. His father _Zep_ is MR3 and BR1, previous mondio world champion (2004). Has produced very well for ringsport. Further back there is _Tom v. Muizenbos_, _Snap_, _Toby._ Debous mother is a daughter of _Urosh_ (son of Nelson) combined with a _Nelson_ daughter. 

http://www.working-dog.eu/stamm-baum/59564/Abbata-van-Joefarm

On the mothers side: _Elgos_ is father, mother is _sister of Roe_ van joefarm. I know the mother has produced well previously. The pedigree is dominated by _Elgos_, _G'bibber_, and _Nelson_. 

I have heard Elgos has produced good grips, gives offspring with a white spot on the chest, and are environmentally stable, but I don't know much else about the lines. 

Is it possible to say anything about what is typical of these lines?

Bernt


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You should have a nice dog. I have seen a few dogs 2 generations off of Elgos that were duds, so it is not as if he is super super producer. On paper the one bitch I worked I would have expected more.

That tight on him should make a nice strong dog.


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## Bernt Lundby

The offspring of Amber look good. The lines seem to differ a lot from the ones of my pup however. I see Elgos and Urosh in there though 

Here is some information i just found: 

http://www.volny.cz/siamcrown/the malinois some well known working dogs.html

Of course there is never a guarantee, except the one I may get from the breeder 

Bernt


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## Jeff Oehlsen

G'Vitou was only a bit younger than G'Bibber, (think less than a couple of months) and was not related at all, so take this article with a grain of salt.

Elgos was an ugly ****, never saw this speed they are talking about, and bit like a son of a bitch. That was about all I saw them get right about him.

I have never seen a dog go slower on a send away than that dog. It was perfect though.


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## Bernt Lundby

Thanks for the reassurance Jeff.

I have lived with a nutcase (unstable aggressive male malinois) for almost 3 years before I sold him to the military. Call me sentimental, but selling the dog was really hard. Just hope I will not have to go through as much training time and hassles as I did and ending up with a dog that just did'nt have it in him genetically. Of course I did a lot of mistakes in training, but the temperament of the dog was the same no matter what I did. So this time I am probably pointlessly researching my ass off to know more about what I am going to mold through training.


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## Bernt Lundby

Hehe, funny correction about the Elgos info 

Was wondering about the G'Vito bit myself.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Brigita Brinac is on this board and she actually has actually seen Elgos in person. Maybe you can talk to her about the dog.

That Rhoads girl from leerburg has a daughter of Elgos, but I don't know if she trained it or not. 

There is one bitch down here that is from a breeding with that bitch and she is nice enough, but not civil as much as a bit weird. Works well so who gives a **** about social oddities. Could have been how she was raised.

I think that Elgos was a bit hyped as a producer over all. I like to see a super producer carry the strengths on no matter the bitch. I know that is really rare, but it is my opinion of what the super producer should be.

Then again, I have been told he was a points dog with barrier aggression. Who the **** can tell when dealing with lying Euros ??? : )


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## Bernt Lundby

We can never be trusted!


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Elgos was an ugly ****, never saw this speed they are talking about, and bit like a son of a bitch. That was about all I saw them get right about him.


I'd have to double check, but I also don't think Elgos had the BRI they credit him with, just the FR and MR titles.

And he was not ugly LOL He looked just like my old boy Enzo. Well, OK, I always said Enzo was a very pretty dog, but an ugly Malinois :-$


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Well then, lye your ass off, and get two for the price of one, and send me a female.


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## Max Orsi

My retired, due to double spinal injury, FRII dog Asta van joefarm has very similar blood lines and it is still my favorite malinois.
I have had the opportunity to work several vanjoefarm dogs and love their temperament, power and bite quality. At times they can be a little too serious and not very social. The problem is that the only unhealthy and dysplastic Malinois I have heard of are also all Vanjoefarm, that is why even if I love my Vanjoefarm, I am always been afraid to get another one.
I have in video 2 mondio trials with Elgos in it, where you can see all his Ob and bitework, not the jumps.
Even if it is hard to judge dogs without working them in person, you can see that he was definitely not a fast dog, even to the bite. The bite were solid (no re gripping) and full, he seems to be a puller ( while biting) and not a push-in kind of dog.

As far as his pedigree goes, everybody now knows that he is a son of Atos x Pharah De L’Atamann and was born with the name Dax, littermate of Dylick, who also participated at the FR finale in 1993 and Dixie all du Chemin de plaines.

As far as Jeff Comment about G’bibber and G’Vitou (Varack) not being related is inaccurate, both dog were acquired by by Deux Pottois kennel Owner in the Verbond (NVBK) and were son of the same dog Cartouche. Both the mother of G’Bibber and G’vitou were line breeding, tighter in the case of G’Vitou, of Arat/Ideal.

Here a little video clip of Elgos/Dax http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S8zXE3C6lc

Here one of G’Bibber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNdooEEHqJM&feature=related
 And One of Espoir/Micky http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-riAbc04_w&feature=related Another famous stud dog with the same lines, Arab/Aral littermates of Arat out of Ideal,of G’Bibber/G’Vitou.

Max


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I was told by Teo Mariscal that Luc's brother bought G'Bibber off a farm. He was around back then decoying and was friends with him. He had two books, one with the real pedigree, and one with what he told the world. He told me that G'Bibber's pedigree is completely fake.

This is the information I am going off of, and I didn't feel he was making it up, as he is still in contact with Luc, and friends.


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## Max Orsi

I never Met Luc and I have heard the story of the farm too, several versions in fact. The information was given to me by people who knew the dog, Luc and were learning breeding practices from him. Sme people who told me that G’Bibber has not produced nearly as many of the dogs who has him in the pedigree, for a well known reason to anyone who knew the dog.
You should speak with Dominique next time you guys bring him over to judge a mondio trial.

Max


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He told me the dog was sterile, due to the e collar they put on his testes. I do not know him, and sorting through what is real and what is not real is a crap shoot.

There are very few dogs that have that distinct head that G'Bibber had. Would have thought that would have passed more than it did.

But like I said, sorting through the stories, I went with the one that Teo told me. I know he likes Luc, I am not sure what Dominique thinks of him. I never asked about the sterile thing, next time I get a chance, I will ask him.


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## Max Orsi

I did not wanted to trow it out like this...

...but seems like we have some of the same info, which I have got from a hand full of different people, therefore there is got to be at least a grain of truth in it.

Max


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have seen G'Vitou clones though. Maybe not as crazy as he was.  

Teo did not like that dog and had worked him. He said the dog was all bite and nothing else. He said that the dog was useless except as a stud, as he was not trainable. He like Lucas, he said he bit just as hard, but did what he was asked.

I see G'Vitou with titles on certain pedigrees. WTF right ??


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
...but seems like we have some of the same info, which I have got from a hand full of different people, therefore there is got to be at least a grain of true in it.

It is like going through the trash. People cannot remember who lied about what. I was told that Elgos was not in my dogs pedigree, as the bitch he was bred to, the owner did not like Elgos at all.

Very often, I want to hook them up to something electrical and get my info the easy way. LOL


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## Max Orsi

Some of the most used Stud were all Bite and no brain, and never titled...
...Maybe we still have something to learn


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That is the rock that I am pushing. Unfortunatly, I think that pisses people off. Breeding to the winner is a show thing holdover.

The first time I went overseas and got a dog, pretty much everyone told me that the dogs further down the list were the ones to look at carefully. Sometimes it is the trainer that put them there, and sometimes it is in spite of the trainer.

Some of the best dogs I had at stud were the biggest ass wads. Several never trialed, because I did not trust them. However, they made very nice dogs.

I hope to live long enough to see for myself a G'Vitou.


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## Christopher Jones

Re: Elgos, I believe he has a false pedigree himself. His father is Atos, not Bass. 
From the research I did on Elgos he was a pretty average producer, and I was told by someone who spoke to Joefarm at a seminar about him that they also said he wasnt as good as they had hoped as a producer.
All the stuff I have seen with close Elgos or linebred Elgos were pretty sensitive. I heard the same from people in Holland and Belgium about his son Stoned. One well known breeder told me that breeding to Stoned set his breeding program back years.
There are some other things about Elgos which also put me off him. But thats ok, I dont have Malis myself so its not something I have to worry about.

With G'vitou, he was from good NVBK lines and I only heard good things about him.
Oh well, thats one of the interesting things about the Mali, its a maze of info and stories.


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## Bernt Lundby

Lots of interesting information. Perhaps it is a good thing that they finally require DNA testing of breeding dogs for FCI/St.Hubert in Belgium.

Max, do you believe Joefarm produces more dysplastic/unhealthy dogs than other belgian breeders? If so, what do you think is the reason for this? 

If you look at the pedigree of the sire (Debou), his father Zep has a lot of showdogs in his pedigree. I find this a bit strange since I know Kees (owner of Zep) is breeding for and training belgian and mondio ring. Breeder names like Balderlo and Oudenakker dominate the mother side of Zep's pedigree. Perhaps those are not the true dogs in his pedigree?

I found an Australian site with some info on bloodlines:

http://hondenaus.com/malinois_current_working_bloodlines.html


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Which kees is that ?? Verbunt ??


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## Max Orsi

I actually think DNA is bad for the malinois. DNA will limit registrations to FCI pepered dogs there are still a lots of different registries, KNPV, NVBK, VAV LOB etc with very valuable dogs that would be escluded.

I don't know if vanjoefarm produces more displastic dogs than anyother breeder in belgium, but I know of about 20 dogs in the states and canada with several health problems including dysplasia, I don't know of any other kennel with that many known problem dogs.

I owned 2 Vanjoefarm dogs, both aquired trough the late Joe Morris. The firts taz never dropped his testicles, the second "Maco" is so effed up on his back that is almost paralized, and for the amount of training and trialing that he has done I don't see a reason for him to be so hurt other than bad genetic, he was never a fast dog.

The other dogs wich I don't Own I prefer not naming.

Don't look too hard at the malinois ped, more than likely are fake, Just trust the breederthat has a history of producing a type of dog.

For whatever reason malinois breeders like to keep things secret and falsify peds even when it does not make sense why and even when you develop a relationship and they tell you "Off the record" the real origin, the get mad if you let other people know. 

Max


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## Bernt Lundby

Yes Kees Verbunt..

If DNA testing leads to exclusion of the other pedigrees, that is bad. The good thing would of course be stopping all the misleading pedigrees etc.

No it is not easy to get an overview of the bloodlines and typical characteristics. So many different opinions on the same dogs.

To me it seems strange that Elgos should have produced only sensitive dogs since a lot of his offspring (like Kukay's Quatro), are KNPV 1-2, BR1, MR3 etc. But perhaps some of his offspring are sensitive.

My old dog had Elgos 3 generations back. Had Yagus (son of Stoned) 2 generations back on mothers side. Pretty sensitive, unbalanced dog. I have believed this is a trait decended from Yagus, and from what you are saying about Stoned, that makes sense.


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## Max Orsi

is not easy to get an overview of the bloodlines and typical characteristics. So many different opinions on the same dogs

You have to form your own opinion not going with other person opinions.
At the end of the day the dog is going to be yours, you are going to live with him, feed him, training and trial him. You are the one who has to like him.
Health and soundness need to be priority #1, the rest is a matter of personal choice.
Max


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## Bernt Lundby

Yes of course. I just need to get the puppy fist  And yes, I agree health (including mental) comes first.

Right now all I have is expectations based on all the information I am gathering. It is often conflicting information so I probably am not getting any wiser, well at least I am getting less naive about the whole pedigree and bloodlines issue.


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## Christopher Jones

Bernt Lundby said:


> My old dog had Elgos 3 generations back. Had Yagus (son of Stoned) 2 generations back on mothers side. Pretty sensitive, unbalanced dog. I have believed this is a trait decended from Yagus, and from what you are saying about Stoned, that makes sense.


Yeah, thats pretty much what I heard about Yagus as well. Stoned and Yagus isnt a line I would breed into if I wanted to get hard, tough dogs. 
Doesnt mean your not gonna get any good dogs from these lines, and people are maybe using them and getting exactly what they want, but from all the information I got there was enough to turn me in another direction. This was comming from people who decoyed the dogs and trained at the same clubs.



Bernt Lundby said:


> To me it seems strange that Elgos should have produced only sensitive dogs since a lot of his offspring (like Kukay's Quatro), are KNPV 1-2, BR1, MR3 etc. But perhaps some of his offspring are sensitive.


I think all this Yagus & Stoned stuff comes down from Elgos, both dogs also carry some of the Elgos traits such as his looks. 
Turdacos however, everyone I spoke to only had good things to say about him, and one of his sons is in this country, Zico vd Berlex Hoeve. Zico is a very tough dog, and nothing like the Elgos offspring I have seen. Flinks worked him in Brisbane and could not stop talking about him. His exact words to me were "If I could give this dog 11/10 I would." 

Kukays Quatro was apparently a very good dog. Gerben on this board did most of the decoy work for him, and he said he was good. But he was also a better dog than his father.

One thing that was interesting for me in my research of Elgos was the "Elgos Head". Elgos has Terv in his bloodlines, as he has produced many Tervs in his breedings such as Kukays Randy. It is well known that the Terv breeders added some Collie dogs into their dogs to make them more pretty and refined. The "Elgos Head" has some very dominant Collie dog features to it. Roman nose, weird eye settings etc. I came up with this idea about the Collie dog in Elgos and was talking to a well known person who worked Elgos and saw alot of his kids. The "Elgos Head" came up and I started to say "I have a theory where this head comes from..." and before I could finish the sentance he finished for me by saying "Collie Dog", which blew me away.
So you can take that for what its worth, just an interesting idea which migt answer the head and senstive questions.
Please note, Im not saying he does have Collie in him, just an idea.


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## Bernt Lundby

Damn, so I have actually ordered a MalCollie? Damn, gotta cancel the order!! Should name him MalColX and hope he has dark pigmentation... My associations getting the better of me 
It is possible that Elgos has produced sensitive dogs when combined with certain females. Perhaps he carries a recessive gene or a set of genes predisposing for softness, but only when combined with the same recessives in the female? That would explain variable results in his offspring. 

From what I understand now it is really hard to predict breeding results unless the breeding has been repeated many times (and one knows the pedigree is correct), producing on average good dogs in the litter. There are a lot of famous dogs in the pedigree (Elgos, Urosh, Nelton, Tom van't Muizenbos, Lucas, G'bibber etc), but I understand that probably indicates little of what I will end up with. Perhaps the most important thing is to get a good guarantee and have the heart to return the dog to the breeder if there are major faults.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: It is possible that Elgos has produced sensitive dogs when combined with certain females.

The female contributes 50%. LOL There are some stud dogs that produced well only if bred to such and such lines. This has always been around. The stars produce well no matter what they are bred to.

I had a bitch that got tied to my friends show Rott. She was an awesome producer, and that litter confirmed it. Not a weak ass in the bunch.

Problem is figuring who these little ****ers are. : )


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## Tiffany Geisen

How funny, I was just talking with Kees about Zep 20 minutes ago....
Kees told me that hardly any of the dogs in Europe are actually what their papers say they are and that he is very careful when buying and breeding to make sure he gets the true pedigrees.


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## Christopher Jones

Bernt Lundby said:


> Damn, so I have actually ordered a MalCollie? Damn, gotta cancel the order!! Should name him MalColX and hope he has dark pigmentation... My associations getting the better of me
> It is possible that Elgos has produced sensitive dogs when combined with certain females. Perhaps he carries a recessive gene or a set of genes predisposing for softness, but only when combined with the same recessives in the female? That would explain variable results in his offspring.
> 
> From what I understand now it is really hard to predict breeding results unless the breeding has been repeated many times (and one knows the pedigree is correct), producing on average good dogs in the litter. There are a lot of famous dogs in the pedigree (Elgos, Urosh, Nelton, Tom van't Muizenbos, Lucas, G'bibber etc), but I understand that probably indicates little of what I will end up with. Perhaps the most important thing is to get a good guarantee and have the heart to return the dog to the breeder if there are major faults.


Lol, MalColX....thats pretty good. 
While it could be some recessive gene thing going on, Elgos had alot of breedings, and so you are going to see alot of variances. Very few stud dogs stamp their litters like a Rambo Rossum did for instance.


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## Bernt Lundby

That is reassuring 
I met Kees last summer. Great decoy! I have never seen any of his dogs though, but I hear Zep is a really good dog.

I guess it is almost impossible to make an informed choise without having personal contacts. Nice of Neal to help me out in this regard. 

About the female contributing 50% of genes. That is an undeniable fact, but that this means she contributes 50% of a certain trait is not. It is theoretically possible that softness originates in sex linked genes and therefore is passed on through the male (if i remember correctly, baldness in humans is an example). But on average there is no reason to think the male transmits more genetic information that is expressed as a trait (phenotype) than the female. Most traits are also polygenic (stem more than one gene). It is therefore common to use a statistical analysis (quantitative genetics), and use 50/50 inheritance. Anyway, good breeders probably know their lines through the average output of good/bad dogs?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

There is a Russian geneticist that believes that the female contributes more than the male, but I cannot find her work. Not sure that they have the internet in Russia. LOL


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## Bernt Lundby

If I remember correctly, the genetic variance is split 50/50, but the female contributes more DNA through maternal (mitochondrial) DNA. This DNA is repeated in all cells, but it accounts for a small portion of genetic variance (codes for the same 30 genes or so). Or something like that 

Haven't been in school for a while!

By the way, great forum! Been reading a bit on Leerburg...and that is ..well different..


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## Bob Scott

I am not and never will be a breeder but in selecting a pup I've always felt the bitch offered more then the male. Simple reason is that the pup will gain or loose because of her hormones while carrying the litter. If she's a nervous bitch it will carry over. Same with a strong bitch. The pups are also influenced by the bitch while she's nursing/raising them. 
The sire is more often then not going to get credit or comdemnation for a good or bad pup.
Never made sense to me.


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## Anna Kasho

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is a Russian geneticist that believes that the female contributes more than the male, but I cannot find her work. Not sure that they have the internet in Russia. LOL


Oh, to be sure, they do, but you gotta be able to type with a Cyrillic (sp) alphabet... What is her name? I've got connections, I can find out where/what she published.


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## Anna Kasho

Bob Scott said:


> the pup will gain or loose because of her hormones while carrying the litter. If she's a nervous bitch it will carry over. Same with a strong bitch. The pups are also influenced by the bitch while she's nursing/raising them.


This just makes so much sense... But I wonder how much environment plays a part, a nervous bitch can be kept in a familiar setting so she will not worry, a strong one may be stressed and trying to guard her pups. Then too, the breeders that leave pups alone, vs. those who do a ton of early work with them.

Back on topic, I have been told that Elgos produces more biddable dogs, not much handler aggression or dog aggression. Don't know how true that is, but I have an Elgos grandson and two Elgos great-grand pups, all related. None are dog aggressive, and all very trainable/biddable. One (US bred) has weaker nerves than I like, but has enough drive to override the nerves. The others are very stable. They are all social with dogs and people.


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## Konnie Hein

Bernt Lundby said:


> My old dog had Elgos 3 generations back. Had Yagus (son of Stoned) 2 generations back on mothers side. Pretty sensitive, unbalanced dog. I have believed this is a trait decended from Yagus, and from what you are saying about Stoned, that makes sense.


I purchased this dog in December of 2008 for disaster SAR training. 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/belgian_malinois/pedigree/796369.html
He's a Yagus grandson. I would describe him as "biddable" and easily trained, but not overly sensitive or unbalanced. I haven't done any bitework with him, but I do have a lot of video of him on a sleeve and suit before I purchased him when he was 9-10 months of age. I have it on youtube, and if you're interested I can make the videos public so you can watch them. The videos are pretty true to his temperament. I have links to some short clips of a couple of his siblings that I can post too if you want to look at those.

Here's his sire, a Yagus son:
http://www.mastermalinois.com/
Seems like a decent dog, but I'm no expert. Lots of videos to look at on his site - mostly IPO stuff.

This is a great discussion and I'd love to hear more!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

His mothers pedigree made up for the Yagus. LOL There are some other dogs in there that helped out as well. The main reason I thought that he would be good for you was the trainability of Yagus.

The video showed that he was not weird, which of course there are many mals that are weird. Yagus was only one factor amongst many.


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## Bernt Lundby

Konnie: I did not mean that all of Yagus offspring are bad dogs. Not at all. Lots of very good competition dogs have Yagus in their pedigree. I have heard a lot of his offspring are like my old dog however: Tall, skinny, leggy, small head, a bit nervy. This does not mean the profile fits all of his offspring. The way I see it, it is like with us humans: We all have a bunch of defects in our genome (mostly reccesives) that can produce an unwanted phenotype in our children if our partner have the same defects. Therefore it is hard to predict. There are so many possible combination in the genetic soup.

But then again, when it comes to dog breeding and sports, I am novice and just have a theoretical understanding (if that)


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## Konnie Hein

Thanks, Jeff and Bernt. I know you weren't saying they are all bad, I was just adding to the discussion. Since my knowledge is limited, that's all I have :razz: 

Jeff - if the dam's pedigree makes up for the Yagus influence, then what/who do you think the dominant influence is on the sire? I rather liked him from his videos, but all I can say is that he'd likely make a great USAR dog.  And, Jeff, you were so right about this dog. Thanks again for your input.

Bernt - do you have video of examples of the type you've described? I'd love to see that for comparison purposes.

These are some of my favorite discussions on this board though - pedigree and history stuff. That, and the diet discussions (that one was for you, Jeff).


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## Jeff Oehlsen

THe boscaille lines in his pedigree.


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## Konnie Hein

Cool website I found that discusses Malinois history and individual dogs...
http://www.hondenaus.com/malinois_origins.html


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## Bernt Lundby

Just some evidence that Yagus also produces good dogs 

http://www.working-dog.eu/kinder-details/1424/Yagus-van-de-Duvetorre

The breeder of my old dog attributes his nerves to the father (Bendit beaute d'lest) who is a mix of lines from netherlands/belgium. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/782/Bendit-Beauté-de-l'Est

I sold my old dog at 2.5 years to the military. He was going after random people on the street and punctured a puppy. Mix of dominant and insecure (forward aggression, probably strengthened through negative reinforcement). He was ok the first two weeks, then during a week or two attacked and bit the trainers at five seperate instances. Had to be put down. I got the option to take him back, but I of course would not. Very very sad.

Only 6 days until my trip to Belgium to get my puppy. Been tested and selected by Neal who tells me it looks very good. Big, social, environmentally stable female with a good natural grip and very high retrieving drive. Been dogless for way too long now. Can't wait!


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## Erica Boling

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> THe boscaille lines in his pedigree.


Good discussion.... very interesting... Would be interested in hearing people's thoughts about the Boscaille bloodlines too.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is one of my favorite things to do as well. The guy that bred the dogs has died some years back, and I have found a few places that are trying to keep the lines alive, but once the guy that started it is gone, his vision is gone.

Rodin owned by Walleed Malouf is a Boscaille lines dog. Then there is a dog owned by Debbie Skinner Dexter, and he has those lines.

One of these days Soda PoP and I are going to talk to her about getting Soda a date. Unfortunately, Dexter is apparently in France, making a name for himself. I have seen one of his sons, and it is a good dog.

I have looked for Rodins brothers online, and have not been able to find a video or anything to watch. I have heard that they were very large dogs.

Euros need to bust out the video tape a lot more often.


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## Bernt Lundby




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## Bernt Lundby

Damn picture link is broken....well.. I'll try again later. Super cute puppy anyway 

Back to the Elgos debate.There are some things I don't understand:

- If it is true that Elgos was a weak dog, why was he bread so much? He must have made an impression on a lot of people for some reason?

- If it is true that Elgos produces offspring that are too sensitive or weak, why do big beligan kennels such as Duvetorre and Joefarm still use his close decendants so much in breeding?

- Were G'vitou and G'Bibber really so different with regards to the offspring they produced? How is this known?

- My puppy has elgos 1x2nd gen (accounting for about 12 percent of the genetic variation in the puppy) and 2x5th generation (accounting for far less). Why is Elgos emphasized in the discussion of the puppy's proginy? What about Zep 1x2nd gen (12 percent), Urosh 1x3rd gen, Lucas 1x3rd gen, Nelton 2x4th gen etc? I would have understood if Elgos was linebread close like 2x2nd gen like i see some breeders do (Patrice Foucault with Loubard for example).


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## Konnie Hein

Nice lookin' pup! Now let's see pics of the pup biting on a rag...


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## Bernt Lundby

7 weeks, still in Belgium.


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## Bernt Lundby

http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p225/berntlundby/?action=view&current=63147e96.pbr


A quick video (cell phone) of bitework at 6 weeks in joefarm kennels.


And another picture at 7 weeks:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p225/berntlundby/028-1.jpg


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## Bernt Lundby

Please excuse the music. Did the video work by the way?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Were G'vitou and G'Bibber really so different with regards to the offspring they produced? How is this known?

I think that goes back to wether or not G'Bibber was the father of all those offspring. Very few have his distinctive look, while many G'Vitou offspring have his look......never know for sure unless Luc signs on as a member. LOL


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## Bernt Lundby

http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p225/berntlundby/?action=view&current=011.flv


This one should work! She is exactly 6 weeks old there. Poor quality, but looks like a good natural grip and regripping on the puppy sleeve.


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## Candy Eggert

Here's a little interesting history.

http://hondenaus.com/malinois_current_working_bloodlines.html


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## Candy Eggert

Speaking of Elgos, there is a video on this same website of him workiing. His grips were legendary but what do you think about his movement and structure? Since most Malinois' have Elgos in their pedigrees it will be a interesting discussion


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am sure there is a conformation discussion board..............somewhere, but dammed if I know where.


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## Bernt Lundby

Just can't get that puppy video to work, sorry.

The questions i had about the previous and continued use of Elgos in breeding still stand unanswared. Why would the most famous breeders still use a dog that is said to produce weak and overly sensitive dogs in breeding? I mean Joefarm is producing for ringsport, police, special forces and military. I believe these people know what they are doing and that Elgos or no Elgos in the pedegree does not matter with regards to selling puppies for them. In my mind this must mean that they do not agree that Elgos produces poorly.

And what about other dogs in the pedegree: Zep (owned by Kees Verbundt), Urosh, Lucas, Nelton etc? What is known about these dogs (except what is written on the joefarm pages)?

Just curious of the pedegree in general.

And again, thanks for all the replies.

B


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## Candy Eggert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am sure there is a conformation discussion board..............somewhere, but dammed if I know where.


:roll: It's too bad that _structural soundness_ (NOT confirmation) isn't as important as "killer grips" :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Jump the dog a bunch, and if he breaks, you know you were right. GUESSING which is what most people do, about what a dog can or cannot do, since they have little experience in pushing a dog to the limit with todays Foo Foo trainers and their silly ideas of what they THINK is correct.

Let me know the next time you have ran a dog until you had to carry him home, from the conformation on most of you, I doubt that it is possible you could do either.

HA HA.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I will see if I can find Kee's e-mail and have him come here and you can ask him. I like him, he is good people.


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## kristin tresidder

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Let me know the next time you have ran a dog until you had to carry him home, from the conformation on most of you, I doubt that it is possible you could do either.
> 
> HA HA.


LOL - that's what bikes are for! i did that once with one of mine - and when he got past the point that he could muscle it, i was able to see the real role the shoulder assembly plays in movement efficiency. his shoulder assembly is lacking from the ideal, and it showed when he got really hot and tired - after running for miles and miles in the carolina sun. a run that started cloudy and cool turned into a return trip though bright sun on a hot day with a black brindle dog, & it was a a real eye opener - all the reading and theory isn't equal to seeing it play out in real life, IMO. although i didn't quite have to carry him home, i did walk my bike back with him the rest of the way -i still had to keep him from trying to run, and he wouldn't have wanted to be carried anyway... he's quite proud...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I just feel way too many have this "ideal" in their head, but would never push precious to the limit. Just think what would happen if people actually tried this with their dogs, and not just took what someone said as the word of GOD.

I have read the word of God, and there is no mention of correct conformation in dogs, or how it applies in real life.

I have pushed dogs pretty dang hard over the years when I was breeding, and I don't remember breaking any of them that wouldn't have broken anyway. Most of them will quit long before they break, and that is something that people do not take into account when breeding the GSD and Mals.......that I have heard of.

The AD should be a joke to a dog.


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## Bob Scott

All the angulation and shoulder layback bs. 
Just take a good look at a coyote. Those bassids can run all frickin day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: All the angulation and shoulder layback bs. 

Just think how many years it has been passed down, and then think of that game in grade school where someone reads something, and then it gets passed to 7 or 8 people. Think how ****ed that got, and then remember where you heard the BS, and how long it has been passed around. LOL

How much of this is in books, based on BS ???

Coondogs are too straight in the front, and their rear end is too high, or so a show person told me when I was a kid. She was a judge but not big time.

She said built like that, they cannot do the work. They ran all night, and would run all day and night, and will do it every night and can cover a LOT of ground. THAT was the beginning of me starting to question "show" people.


How cute is that puppy ??? I liked the video, now that I accidently de-railed this thing.


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## Max Orsi

Hi Brent,

Elgos produced very well when coupled with dog out of his same father side, most specifically the “De Mits”.

The other dogs in you ped are again for the most part “De Mits” by way of Zorro (Nelton D2P) and Flash (Lucas D2P).

I have never seen personally either of the 2 dogs but I have the chance of working several dogs out of Zorro, that I like so much I named one of my dogs after him, and out of Flash, including my own Vanjoefarm. The breeders and passionate of the breed that I trust and have seen personally and /or worked the dogs, described them in the same manner.

Flash, as the nickname implies, was a very fast dog with a very hard and full grip and unlike most dogs out of the same combo, double Gordon, trainable and social.

Zorro is out of the same lines minus the Flap and Bois Demblise lines in Lucas, which are very trainable social and more “sporty”, he got more of the “Mits” quality wich are not very trainable, not very playful (sporty), great grips and power and very serious dogs (not social) real warriors.

Zorro’s littermate Nardo AKA Rocky was competing in France and was also considered a very powerful serious dog as the other littermate T’Bio who competed in NVBK.

Your pup has some of my favorite malinois blood lines in him. The only mystery is “Zep” which I really doubt is related to most of the dogs in his paperwork.

Good luck with him

Max


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## Tammy McDowell

We have several Mal's out of Joefarm lines. Comparing to Mal's from different lines, it is hard to find the same drive and grip as w/ the Joefarm dogs. Our Joefarm's have not had any health issues to speak of. I'm betting that any kennel that produces the amount of dogs that they do, you are bound to have health issues here and there on top of the fact that you also have to consider what each new owner fed and how they raised the pup when it comes to health problems as well.

Jexx is also from the late Joe Morris, out of Joe's Mal Yunas. To say that he has an extreme grip would be an understatement...but he's also a stubbon bull headed @ss of a dog on the field...social at home and w/ all people but a complete @ss when it comes to bitework. I never had the chance to meet Yunas but from what I hear...like father like son.

I have a female out of Jexx, also Joefarm on the bottom...wouldn't trade her for the world!

Good luck w/ your new pup!


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## Bernt Lundby

I believe Zep comes from NVBK ring lines, not the show lines that are listed. I just came back from Belgium this season leading the cup. Watched a mondio competition in Wetteren. Damn so much fun, good beer and great people!

Debou (my pups father) has won 4/10 mondio 3 competitions in belgium thereby leading the tournament this year.This competition he came in third because he failed in food refusal. Not a social dog at all, pretty psycho, but low stress, calm and focused. Really hard, and handler aggro (trained with leather armstraps). Not tall, but extremly muscular. Pitbull like head (upward tilted eyes).

I also met Zep (grandfather). He is belgian ring 1 and mondioring 3. Not the most social dog, also really hard and handler aggro. 

The handler aggro and hardness I believe comes from their training using E.

Abbata (mother) is described as the ugliest malinois ever. Looks like a hyena. Is belgian ring 3, superfast and bites really hard and full.

The rest of the info I got about the pedegree matches what Max wrote.



The puppy is now 8 weeks old. Nice and compact. Bites like an alligator (broke skin after feeding in my forearm at age 7 weeks. Builds bite and clamps down focused and hard. I threw my keys on the floor, she picked them up and came back to me. She has a temper too. Was a bit reserved around strangers when I got her, but has gotten much better, also with dogs. I was told Joefarm does not have too much time to do socialization with the puppies (many litters). She has an on/off switch. Fell down from the sofa last night and just went to sleep on her back after the fall . Very athletic and fast already. Runs stairs, good targeting and immense appetite. Ate a dried pig ear in less than an hour. Tries to swallow everything so I have to watch her carefully. So far I am extremly happy with what I see.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That is really good to hear. I love to hear when someone gets a real nice pup.


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## Bernt Lundby

Thanks Jeff!

What they told me about Elgos was that he was a dog that didn't care about anything (hard) and didn't work unless he was "told to". Pretty slow moving, but with a great bite. The bite is what he is known to pass on. He is also know to pass on "trainability", but not softness. This is what they told me down there anyway


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