# Who uses a spring pole?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Seems like pit bull guys love them, but not so popular with herders....




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-B3Wps0n28


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have seen some spring poles set up to throw a dog 15' in the air. it is a good way to break teeth (and legs for that matter) pitbulls are the only breed built tough enough to fly off a spring pole 10' in the air and land on the heads and not break something. I have used modified spring pole ideas with puppies here, but it really does not teach anything that I need them to learn.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I built one in a palm tree out back a couple years ago. It now holds a bird feeder.:lol:


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I have seen some spring poles set up to throw a dog 15' in the air. it is a good way to break teeth (and legs for that matter) pitbulls are the only breed built tough enough to fly off a spring pole 10' in the air and land on the heads and not break something. I have used modified spring pole ideas with puppies here, but it really does not teach anything that I need them to learn.


Even then, I have seen it recommended to have the spring pole hanging low enough so the dogs feet are touching the ground. Bulldogs (APBTs, American Bulldogs, probably any dog bred to do catch work for that matter) just seem to love to bite and tug/hang from stuff. Bulldogs are stupid about their bodies though and will do things that aren't necessarily good for them because, well, they're bulldogs. Even if a Pit Bull Terrier can do it doesn't mean there isn't some risk to the neck, teeth, or anything they might land on when you let them sprint across a field and vault themselves a good first down's worth of yardage into the air, or if people have the spring pole too close to a building or something and the dog slams into something over and over.

They're tough, but they are still dogs. It's just safer to let them be low enough to bite the spring pole, keep all their feet on the floor, and just tug and bite their little hearts out. Not as flashy, but the dogs enjoy it just fine without the risk.

-Cheers


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think they promote a shallow grip. In particular if they are up high.
The dog gets one grip and no chance to regrip. I also believe that a many bulldogs genetically use a shallow grip to start with.
Not necessarily faulty, just nature's way of allowing them to hold on and breath easier. 
The fulll mouth doesn't allow for that as easily. 
OR, maybe herder folks just train smarter then bulldog folks.
:-# #-o Did I say that with my outloud voice?  :razz:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I think they promote a shallow grip. In particular if they are up high.
> The dog gets one grip and no chance to regrip. I also believe that a many bulldogs genetically use a shallow grip to start with.
> Not necessarily faulty, just nature's way of allowing them to hold on and breath easier.
> The fulll mouth doesn't allow for that as easily.
> ...


Oh shit Bob, now you just opened up a whole can of worms!!:grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Oh shit Bob, now you just opened up a whole can of worms!!:grin:


Now I feel bad! :twisted::twisted:O


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I guess the original intended use of the spring pole was to build jaw strength and muscle, and also to provide entertainment for the dog and human spectators. LOL
I guess it was not and is not important for most of those folks who use them how full or shallow the dog grips.
If I had a pitbull I would have a spring pole for sure, just for the sheer entertainment of it all. But i wont use it with my working dogs.
Ever since i was a kid I have been drawn to and fascinated by good pitbulls, yet have never owned one.
Perhaps one day I will when the boys are old enough to play with one. I need to get a pet that is not a Mali, Dutchie, or GSD because everytime I get one that I call my pet, someone comes along and buys it from me. If I get a pitty then it will be more likely to stay here longer, and I could have fun playing with a nice pitty I think. But for sure I would not do bitework with it. Just spring pole work, weight pulling, treadmill work,.......... anything to make him look like a ripped little monster. Those are the ones that i really like.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I guess the original intended use of the spring pole was to build jaw strength and muscle, and also to provide entertainment for the dog and human spectators. LOL
> I guess it was not and is not important for most of those folks who use them how full or shallow the dog grips.
> If I had a pitbull I would have a spring pole for sure, just for the sheer entertainment of it all. But i wont use it with my working dogs.
> Ever since i was a kid I have been drawn to and fascinated by good pitbulls, yet have never owned one.
> Perhaps one day I will when the boys are old enough to play with one. I need to get a pet that is not a Mali, Dutchie, or GSD because everytime I get one that I call my pet, someone comes along and buys it from me. If I get a pitty then it will be more likely to stay here longer, and I could have fun playing with a nice pitty I think. But for sure I would not do bitework with it. Just spring pole work, weight pulling, treadmill work,.......... anything to make him look like a ripped little monster. Those are the ones that i really like.


Didn't say I wouldn't use one with a Pit. My family has had a number of them (Pits). Great little dogs but my exposure to many, many Pits in my old neighborhood has created a strong distate for many, many (not all) of the owners. #-o There I go again! :twisted::wink:


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I think they promote a shallow grip. In particular if they are up high.
> The dog gets one grip and no chance to regrip. I also believe that a many bulldogs genetically use a shallow grip to start with.
> Not necessarily faulty, just nature's way of allowing them to hold on and breath easier.
> The fulll mouth doesn't allow for that as easily.


Actually, they can regrip by just sort of kipping themselves up. They just use their neck and core to sort of kip up then get a better grip, kind of like one of those Crossfit kids or Ross Enamait. I see what you're saying though.



> OR, maybe herder folks just train smarter then bulldog folks.
> :-# #-o Did I say that with my outloud voice?  :razz:


Well, maybe that just depends. :-\" That said, you probably don't have to look too far to find evidence for your case, which is kind of sad. But there are some great people the Bulldog world, and there are total tarts, and everything in between.



mike suttle said:


> I guess the original intended use of the spring pole was to build jaw strength and muscle, and also to provide entertainment for the dog and human spectators. LOL
> I guess it was not and is not important for most of those folks who use them how full or shallow the dog grips.
> If I had a pitbull I would have a spring pole for sure, just for the sheer entertainment of it all.


Yeah, what Mike said. I think most just use them to exercise their dog and just let them have fun, regardless of the original intent. Or to look cool on Youtube maybe. I guess.

Mike, if you ever get a Bulldog get them a Spring Pole. They seem to have a blast with them.

-Cheers


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David, I agree 100% about there being great people in the Bulldog world and "total tarts". 
No different then the hairy dogs. 
The unfortunate side of this is the vast numbers of idiots out there today destroying the name of "good" Bulldog folks. 
But that's another post and not as much fun to harrass folks cause it's to real. Not just keeping dogs conditioned. 

I also admire your response to me. Not just %$^^&*#@# me cause you disagree. ;-)


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> David, I agree 100% about there being great people in the Bulldog world and "total tarts".
> No different then the hairy dogs.
> The unfortunate side of this is the vast numbers of idiots out there today destroying the name of "good" Bulldog folks.


Totally agree. To be honest, I don't like some of the people that get Bulldogs either. I just get to hang out with some of the cool ones (people AND dogs) from time to time. It's a luxury.



> But that's another post and not as much fun to harrass folks cause it's to real. Not just keeping dogs conditioned.


Yeah. If you just have them doing spring pole and stuff for fun, they're a blast to watch.



> I also admire your response to me. Not just %$^^&*#@# me cause you disagree. ;-)


For one, I actually agree with you. I should've had a smiley after the herder joking gag. But it's true. There are people that are pretty dumb about Bulldogs. Just chiming in for the ones who have their Bulldogs and aren't tarts with their dogs, and don't think Pit Bull Terrier equals tough guy Super Dog you can treat like crap or expect supernatural behaviors from because they're M-F-in' Pit Bulls!

For another, I try to be cool about stuff even if I do disagree. Generally, I tend to not tell people off because they disagree. I'd rather learn something from them, see what they think/believe and why, and at least be cool having different opinions. I just like the dogs, Bulldogs, Herders, Terriers, and good old mutts & lap dogs, I like them all. I've gotten to meet and talk to people that were really cool with all kinds of dogs and some not so cool people with all different manner of dogs as well. Still, the APBT (and the Presa) and related breeds do tend to draw some real winners. :roll: Which is too bad, they're really cool dogs and deserve better than they'll ever get most times.

-Cheers


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

*Various dogs on Springpole*

I put all my dogs (Boerboels, Bouviers, Dutchie) on the springpole for exercise.. & just 'cause it's fun to watch! 
With my background in APBTs, I expected "everybody else" to pop up into the grip if necessary like how pits do.. after finding out that they don't necessarily do that, I've changed my springpole height from what is shown in the vids. Even if they aren't gripping on this toy exactly how I'd like them to be on a decoy, I don't sweat it: dogs are great discriminators & I've never found this to affect their bitework.

Boerboel bitch Batu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmmVYoiCdIU

New to this 8yo Bouvier Santos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiKwlWALOQk


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Last time it came up in conversation, a guy with a lot of experience, has a few dogs, including his police k9 (GSD) a pet mal, and at least one bully. He likes one because that, along with a flirt pole, and one dog watching in a run (and running in it) allows him to exercise three dogs at one time. 


Mine is doing well fetching balls and loves bike rides (pulls 85%-110% and even after going for a while fires out of every cul de sac and after every brief pause like a rocket, so much so that I wonder how much more a sled dog would really do).... but he always seems like he wants some more


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> Last time it came up in conversation, a guy with a lot of experience, has a few dogs, including his police k9 (GSD) a pet mal, and at least one bully. He likes one because that, along with a flirt pole, and one dog watching in a run (and running in it) allows him to exercise three dogs at one time.


With the Flirtpole, I'll exercise 2-3 dogs at a time, & work some OB while I'm at it. This is a vid of our DS, Bouvier, & older Boerboel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBtStnBs9i8


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> With the Flirtpole, I'll exercise 2-3 dogs at a time, & work some OB while I'm at it. This is a vid of our DS, Bouvier, & older Boerboel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBtStnBs9i8


 Nice video, looks like the other two dont have a chance with the big hairball in the game!:lol:


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## Sharon Adams (Nov 6, 2007)

I have a spring pole, flirt pole and a Pit Bull
I put it up as a form of self exercise and fun for my dog.
I keep the bite surface low enough so there is no hanging, or catapulting.
It is in the middle of my back yard so she can't hit the fence, building, shed, etc
oh and
had a Chihuahua that played with the flirt pole and spring pole every chance he got. :lol:


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I have a spring pole that I allow my herders monitored exercise time on daily. It's set up so that the dog's hind feet are securely on the ground for safety and the ability to more easily re-grip. It's been a great way to exercise them and I use it to train with a lot since I don't have a decoy in hand for the purely positional stuff.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Nice video, looks like the other two dont have a chance with the big hairball in the game!:lol:


Thanks! She runs four times as hard for it *if* there's "competition".. [email protected] Bouviers!


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Sounds like a lot of fun for the dogs!!! Can someone show me a picture of the actual pole and maybe tell me how i can build one?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Just a rope + A spring ore somthing springy like a inertupe from a bike. Then you atatsh a toy on the end. Put it in a tree on the right hight for you dog. Wooola


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Use an old garage door spring attached between the rope and the tree branch. That wiil give you enough give.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> Seems like pit bull guys love them, but not so popular with herders....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a good way to start a fight. :???: 

Anyway, I've used them but usually for no other reason than to give the dog a really good work out or for something a little bit different for the dog to do. I haven't had the opportunity yet to find out if it promotes a shallower bite in a dog used for sport though. I figure it probably wouldn't, my logic is this: it's just a tool and most tools depending upon the application are typically used differently from one another (grip, positioning, leverage, torque, etc.). Does the human analogy cross over and apply here, I figure it probably does and perhaps to a large extent.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

ok, i will try to rig something up and give it a go.Thanks.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> ok, i will try to rig something up and give it a go.Thanks.


Did you happen to find yourself some pictures for a design? If not, depending upon what dog you are using it for consider cementing the post base and bracing the underside of the top plate for added support. I'd probably double loop the spring connections too because if there's a failure it could do some serious damage to your dog or anyone whose standing around at the time. A bungie works too, just keep an eye on it for wear or breakdown and either remove the hooks or duct tape and pad them so the dog doesn't accidentally clip them. 

You can also set them up in your garage - not sure if you knew that. Good luck.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

I have a friend that liked the idea and used it for his Mali. Blames the Malis 'no out' on the spring pole. I also think there is something to the shallow bite thing, which is a killer in Schutzhund judging.

I personally like the idea of the dogs being self-exercising. I love to have the dogs in shape. What I don't like is that my personal feeling is that I like to be the one that good things come from, thus the center of where all the fun is. If the dog can play with the ball on a spring, then I am NOT the center of all that is fun for the dog. At least, that is my point of view.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dan Brigham said:


> I have a friend that liked the idea and used it for his Mali. Blames the Malis 'no out' on the spring pole. I also think there is something to the shallow bite thing, which is a killer in Schutzhund judging.
> 
> I personally like the idea of the dogs being self-exercising. I love to have the dogs in shape. What I don't like is that my personal feeling is that I like to be the one that good things come from, thus the center of where all the fun is. If the dog can play with the ball on a spring, then I am NOT the center of all that is fun for the dog. At least, that is my point of view.


I think those points are all pretty legitimate. Course some dogs won't out for shit, and the reasons for that vary a bit so who knows if the SP really was the reason for that issue. The dogs I used it on I wasn't working in a sport but in AK where the winter never seems to end, you do tend run out of options of what to do with a dog especially during our cold snaps that can last for 3 wks at a time.

I suppose that there are ways to insert yourself into the SP so that the dog does correlate you with access to it or the work with it. I guess I mean, the dog doesn't really need to know it's connected to a spring if you don't want it to associate it as a reward separate from you.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> ok, i will try to rig something up and give it a go.Thanks.


Regardless of what breed of dog you are using the dogs back feet should remain on the ground at all times. You can build a short chain or rope set up in the ground then attach the chain or rope to the dogs collar. Shorten the chain or rope to a length to prevent the dog from being able to get his back feet off the ground. It looks impressive to see them hanging but if some part of the chainsetup falls apart or they slip they can break their back and have to be put down. When the dog pulls down all four feet should hit the ground when it springs back up he's on his back two feet again. You can also build the set up in such a fashion so all four feet are on the ground at all times. Like a tug of war type thing. 

Its hard to explain this without a pencil and paper but you can add safety devices. Normally you have rope then spring then rope then hide...now add a additional rope the goes from one rope to the other rope and goes around the spring...That way if the spring breaks it won't come flying down and hit him in the head and injure him. The safety rope will hold it together until you come to the rescue. O


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

On an additional note (didnt see anyone mention it, sorry if I missed it)...make DARNED sure that whatever toy/surface you are allowing the dog to bite is nothing that teeth can get stuck in. I only use heavy leather, a piece of fire hose or a really cool small airplane tire that a friend gave me (no metal threads like most tires). If anything starts fraying, it gets tossed out. Even with their back feet on the ground, there is too big of a risk for broken teeth with jute or suit material. 

As far as a dog not outing because of the spring pole....not a chance. I use it to TEACH the out/guard (and the call off, and the return to handler, etc), same as I would on a decoy, and it allows for a session where you can work on the dogs understanding of the commands/positions themselves (in drive, but without the extra intensity that comes with a decoy present).


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## Celia Owen (Dec 9, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> Seems like pit bull guys love them, but not so popular with herders....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


im a pit bull gal. (new here btw) and i have a pole. its not so muchthat we pit people love them. the dogs really love them lol. my pit was a freak for the spring in her younger days. 

pits..at least how it seems to me...bite a bit differently. its hard to describe exactly but its almost like they actually have a drive to bite and _hold_ my girl does it with her toys. training work on her dog aggression was a cakewalk compared to getting her to let go of a toy lol. the spring actually helped with that. kinda like an outlet i guess. i also used it in obedience work. for training her to pay attention when she is waaay amped up.

they have their uses lol.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I have abs and while I don't do the spring pole nowadays, I used to. I was warned at the time not to do it as it promotes a shallow grip....well I guess so if the dogs natural grip is not full to begin with....or maybe that's a good excuse to blame it on. Dog one had a full natural grip, made it to a Sch3 and rarely was marked for grip. Dog two was totally and completely obsessed with it. At 8 mos he need to be choked off into sleepy time to get him off, wake up and in one leap he'd try to get back on. We could never let him out without a leash or he was gone and on the pole and sleepy time and the battle was on. Take same dog to training and he had no focus and barely interested in working. I am in "no correlation" club.

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Kristina Senter said:


> On an additional note (didnt see anyone mention it, sorry if I missed it)...make DARNED sure that whatever toy/surface you are allowing the dog to bite is nothing that teeth can get stuck in. I only use heavy leather, a piece of fire hose or a really cool small airplane tire that a friend gave me (no metal threads like most tires). If anything starts fraying, it gets tossed out. Even with their back feet on the ground, there is too big of a risk for broken teeth with jute or suit material.
> 
> As far as a dog not outing because of the spring pole....not a chance. I use it to TEACH the out/guard (and the call off, and the return to handler, etc), same as I would on a decoy, and it allows for a session where you can work on the dogs understanding of the commands/positions themselves (in drive, but without the extra intensity that comes with a decoy present).


Kristina, 

I agree that out problems are always a handler issue, not a dog or equipment issue. And even more specific I think Outs have a lot to do with confidence in the handlers. It's the opposite of a dog that won't engage. That's a confidence issue also. If the dog is not outing...equipment did not teach that. 

As for grips... I think that's purley genetics shallow biting dogs ares simply that because of who they are. And some dogs are just 3/4 biting dogs. And now that I think about it, every dog that I knew that bite hard but only 3/4 were some of the hardest biting SOBS I have ever seen and all were a little edgy with the nerves. It seems some of these dogs can be taught to bite deep, but your always maintaining the grip. Always having to keep on the dog to bite full. Dogs that bite full...just do.


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## Celia Owen (Dec 9, 2009)

some of this is a little disturbing. springs as far as i know where designed in the beginning to improve a pit dog's ability to wrestle with other DOGS. pits are NOT supposed to bite people, EVER. any pit that bites should be an automatic pts. this is supposed to be one of the two key, defining temperment traits of the breed.

so it really disturbs me that there is even a comparison goin on between pits and herders. they dont compare. they are two separate things entirely

just saying.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I used the spring pole with my Pit mix in the past but stopped shortly after we began training in Schutzhund. He had a shallow grip anyway and I didn't think the spring pole was helping us with that.

My young AB has gotten to play with the spring pole low enough so all four stay on the ground and he doesn't have the same shallow bite that the other dog has. So I don't mind letting him play on it and have some fun every once in a while.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Celia,
Just as an FYI, nothing personal intended...I'd highly recommend getting some more miles under your wings before stating whose dogs should be euthanized. 

The vast majority of the dogs here are being trained to bite people, pretty much as simple as that. If you're uncomfortable with that, you might want to choose a pet-related forum. NO ONE here is going to tolerate any posting or encouragement about any illegal or immoral intentional bite, however, so there is little need to be disturbed. 

You are right in that there are a lot of differences between pits and herders, but there are many of both in a variety of sports and venues, including many pits who do bitework. I would assume the owner of a pit to be every bit as cautious as the owner of a herder when it comes to public safety and control of a bite-trained dog. If they choose to have a non-traditional breed to do manwork with, thats their choice...be it a Border Collie, Chesapeake, ACD, Jack Russell or Pitbul. No pitbul owner should tolerate excessive or indiscriminant aggression, nor should any herder owner. The responsibility, awareness and control that an owner of a bite-trained dog is prepared for has nothing to do with the breed of dog they are working. 




Celia Owen said:


> some of this is a little disturbing. springs as far as i know where designed in the beginning to improve a pit dog's ability to wrestle with other DOGS. pits are NOT supposed to bite people, EVER. any pit that bites should be an automatic pts. this is supposed to be one of the two key, defining temperment traits of the breed.
> 
> so it really disturbs me that there is even a comparison goin on between pits and herders. they dont compare. they are two separate things entirely
> 
> just saying.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't use spring poles but like the idea. I have used it just once for one of my dogs. A dutch male. He has a full grip on everything, in mid air not so much (so I would agree about it developing shallow grips, but if it is your primary source only) but he has this strange ability to lift himself to rebite in midair it is weird how strong his neck is. I wouldn't do this until the dog is fully matured and gradually lift and help with the dog. I think it does build a stronger grip but should be done on a limited basis and obviously the dog should be encouraged to develop a full mouth grip. I would never lift my dog too high up and don't allow him to drop from it either. My herder actually beat out alot of the bullbreeds when I have done it so again believe the herder can hang. literally lol Again have only done this with one of my herders so far but I think it is something worth incorporating for me at least.


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## steve davis (Mar 24, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I guess the original intended use of the spring pole was to build jaw strength and muscle, and also to provide entertainment for the dog and human spectators. LOL
> I guess it was not and is not important for most of those folks who use them how full or shallow the dog grips.
> If I had a pitbull I would have a spring pole for sure, just for the sheer entertainment of it all. But i wont use it with my working dogs.
> Ever since i was a kid I have been drawn to and fascinated by good pitbulls, yet have never owned one.
> Perhaps one day I will when the boys are old enough to play with one. I need to get a pet that is not a Mali, Dutchie, or GSD because everytime I get one that I call my pet, someone comes along and buys it from me. If I get a pitty then it will be more likely to stay here longer, and I could have fun playing with a nice pitty I think. But for sure I would not do bitework with it. Just spring pole work, weight pulling, treadmill work,.......... anything to make him look like a ripped little monster. Those are the ones that i really like.


 
dude, you sounded exactly like me in that post.


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## Ken White (Dec 15, 2009)

I absolutely use a spring pole for my apbt - primarily for conditioning. 

The difference from the spring poles described is that I securely attach a heavy carabiner to a branch on the apple tree in my yard so that any rope that I put through it is 'detachable'. The carabiner is fairly tight to the branch so that there's no chance (it's well out of her range) of tooth damage on the metal.

I work her on the flirt pole with a hide or rope attached to a longe-whip, then I simply clip the rope through the carabiner, pull the hide to about two feet from the ground (she's small), then send her while I have the handle end of the whip in my hands.

She can engage the hide all she wants - the branch gives just a bit - and when she's gripping well and feeling feisty, I can pull on the handle until her front legs off the ground, and even until all four feet are off the ground and she just blisses out and does the grunt/tug combo until she starts gyrating her lower body and really cranking on it - watching her do this blisses me out too I wish I had abs like hers...

I can lower the hide at any time to give her stabilty or let her win and 'shark' the hide to death, or work down the line and let her reset her grip with a counter. The pulley action of the carabiner lets me to safely change her workout depending on her energy levels. When we're done I can also unclip the line and llet her carry her prize out of the yard.

I have a small loop tied into the whip-line so that I can 'set' the level with her front feet just barely off the ground and I do not have to hold it. I do not have a decoy and she's not a genius extrapolator, so this is how I reinforced the whistle recall from the bite. 

It's safe. It's fun. It's reactive and experiential. We get to play the springpole game _together_, so there's relationship.


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

Ken White said:


> I absolutely use a spring pole for my apbt - primarily for conditioning.
> 
> The difference from the spring poles described is that I securely attach a heavy carabiner to a branch on the apple tree in my yard so that any rope that I put through it is 'detachable'. The carabiner is fairly tight to the branch so that there's no chance (it's well out of her range) of tooth damage on the metal.
> 
> ...


You have pics of your set up. That sounds great. Would love to see about setting something like that up for my boy.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I wondered about doing something like that with the soccer goal at the school park, I could give him a good grip, then pull on a rope and give him some lift


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Be careful with the spring pole in public areas, especially if you have Pits. 
In many parts of the country just being in possession of a spring pole, tread mill, etc can be illegal.
Your in Possession of "dog fighting equiptment". Seriously! ](*,)


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## Ken White (Dec 15, 2009)

Hey there - no pics, but I can get some in the spring (I'm not at my house right now). 

It's easier than it sounds. 1) Fasten a heavy carabiner to a secure limb/beam, whatever. 2) push a rope (with hide on one end) through the clasp. You have one end and the dog has the hide end - the 'biner serves as a poor pulley.

Hope that helps.


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## Ken Stupak (Apr 10, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Be careful with the spring pole in public areas, especially if you have Pits.
> In many parts of the country just being in possession of a spring pole, tread mill, etc can be illegal.
> Your in Possession of "dog fighting equiptment". Seriously! ](*,)


Can you tell me where in the country simple possession of these items is illegal? It is my understanding that simple posssesision is not the problem--it is what the user is doing with them and the ulltimate outcome, i.e the spring pole and treadmill are being used to condition dogs. The dogs are then used for fighting. Thes items would then be considered dog fighting paraphenalia. The law enforcement agencies and animal control agencies I have experience with see these items as *possible* tip-offs to dog fighting, but simple possession, with no other evidence, has never resulted in an arrest/seizure in my experience. Maybe it has happened--but that would be a bit overzealous in my opinion.
My local Sears sells treadmills--don't see the cops shutting them down anytime soon.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Ken Stupak said:


> Can you tell me where in the country simple possession of these items is illegal? It is my understanding that simple posssesision is not the problem--it is what the user is doing with them and the ulltimate outcome, i.e the spring pole and treadmill are being used to condition dogs. The dogs are then used for fighting. Thes items would then be considered dog fighting paraphenalia. The law enforcement agencies and animal control agencies I have experience with see these items as *possible* tip-offs to dog fighting, but simple possession, with no other evidence, has never resulted in an arrest/seizure in my experience. Maybe it has happened--but that would be a bit overzealous in my opinion.
> My local Sears sells treadmills--don't see the cops shutting them down anytime soon.


Section 42.1 of the San Francisco Animal Care and Control Health Code prohibits the "use or possession" of treadmills unless under the direction of a veterinarian. Now, I don't know what the penalty is for possession or how aggressively they pursue people who own them, but considering the state of BSL there already nothing would surprise me.


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## Ken Stupak (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for the info James. 
Figures, SF would be the place. Although Boulder may be right behind them with their designation of pet owners as "guardians". I would be very suprised and disgusted if someone has actually been prosecuted using your stated regulation--but it is the home of the looney left.
Do the regs say anything about a spring pole ?? Seems a spring pole is something fighters would have more knowledge/use for than the general public. Treadmills are a pretty ubiquitous piece of equipment used regularly be joe q. public.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

^ Unbelievable. . . .


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Ken Stupak said:


> Do the regs say anything about a spring pole ?? Seems a spring pole is something fighters would have more knowledge/use for than the general public.


Here's the health code: http://www.sfgov.org/site/acc_page.asp?id=5476#sec42.1

Springpoles aren't specifically mentioned but "designed to include but not be limited to" comment and list that follows essentially functions as a catch-all for prosecution, imo.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with LE using 'paraphernalia' as evidence in cases against dogfighters because it's next to impossible to catch them in the act. What I take issue with is criminalizing the equipment alone.


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## Ken Stupak (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for the link--I just found it myself. I agree with your comment about criminalizing the equipment. Hopefully most of the cops and ACOs use good commen sense when running into some of these things. I have responded to 2-3 calls of people "hanging" dogs in their backyards. It has always ended up being a pit playing with a spring pole hanging from a tree. No other evidence to point to dog fighting--just a dog and owner having a good time. 
I have seen some dog fighting/cock fighting set-ups, but like you said the people have always been long gone and never found.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Here's the health code: http://www.sfgov.org/site/acc_page.asp?id=5476#sec42.1
> 
> Springpoles aren't specifically mentioned but "designed to include but not be limited to" comment and list that follows essentially functions as a catch-all for prosecution, imo.
> 
> Honestly, I don't have a problem with LE using 'paraphernalia' as evidence in cases against dogfighters because it's next to impossible to catch them in the act. What I take issue with is criminalizing the equipment alone.


I am sure it would be easy to get a mill, weights directed by a vet, if you explained that they are for sporting purposes, and not dog fighting.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I am sure it would be easy to get a mill, weights directed by a vet, if you explained that they are for sporting purposes, and not dog fighting.


Perhaps. But why take people down that slippery slope in the first place? I'm not a lawyer nor do I believe any system is perfect, but I do think prosecutors are given some discretion when handing down indictments. Can't be that hard to differentiate between responsible fanciers/competitors who condition their dogs in good faith and members of the criminal element.


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

Ken Stupak said:


> The law enforcement agencies and animal control agencies I have experience with see these items as *possible* tip-offs to dog fighting, but *simple possession, with no other evidence, has never resulted in an arrest/seizure in my experience.* Maybe it has happened--but that would be a bit overzealous in my opinion.
> My local Sears sells treadmills--don't see the cops shutting them down anytime soon.


Has happened. They use the fact that they have the equipment as evidence that you fight or are intending to fight your dogs.


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## Ken Stupak (Apr 10, 2009)

Kristi--were you privy to the investigation? I would be curious to know the circumstances surronding the prosecution. Was there additional evidence pointing to dog fighting or just a treadmill on-site ? Were the dogs being housed in a particular manner? 
Training/fight logs ? Magazines ? Medications ? 
Thanks


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

Nope, not privy to it. Just what I read and what the owner himself said. It basaically came down to him owning several gameline apbt, the equipment and was somewhat known in the ADBA circle. He did get all his dogs back though. I don't remember all the detail. I'll have to hunt down the thread again.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

trust me, that's an old story. it may sound crazy to non-pitbull people, but not to those of us who deal w/it or hear of it fairly often. it's just one more reason that people should not turn their back on any type of anti-dog legislation!


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I fear for that kind of stuff. I self vaccinate, etc. so I have access to sterile needles, syringes, and the injections. I also have plenty of supplements and a treadmill. My dogs are a bit scarred because they do always start out with severe dog aggression. I think I might post another thread about this but what if for some reason.... like in our neighborhood if I am doing training in the back yard and using sticks etc. people just see the dog biting and what looks to be me beating the dog etc. I am sure it is possible that someone could call on me. My dogs are all lean so I wouldn't hesitate that they would say they are too skinny and with them being scarred and me having possession of such items what are the chances of them believing me? I think it would be fair to say they would believe me if it were just my dutchies but I also own bulldogs and have other dogs on premises at times. Does the breed matter in these cases that severly when presented with the same evidence. Sorry to get to rambling but this is something that has passed through my head several times.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Amanda Caldron said:


> I fear for that kind of stuff. I self vaccinate, etc. so I have access to sterile needles, syringes, and the injections. I also have plenty of supplements and a treadmill. My dogs are a bit scarred because they do always start out with severe dog aggression. I think I might post another thread about this but what if for some reason.... like in our neighborhood if I am doing training in the back yard and using sticks etc. people just see the dog biting and what looks to be me beating the dog etc. I am sure it is possible that someone could call on me. My dogs are all lean so I wouldn't hesitate that they would say they are too skinny and with them being scarred and me having possession of such items what are the chances of them believing me? I think it would be fair to say they would believe me if it were just my dutchies but I also own bulldogs and have other dogs on premises at times. Does the breed matter in these cases that severly when presented with the same evidence. Sorry to get to rambling but this is something that has passed through my head several times.


I own bulldogs as well and had that concern as I started to amass more equipment plus the fact that my backyard is not fenced in and my neighbors see my dogs on the springpole and flirtpole, etc. So I called Animal Control and asked if any of that equipment was illegal in and of itself in my county and was told "no". At that point I explained to the officer my own fears about my neighbors misunderstanding and possibly calling me in to AC. At that point I was assured that any complaints made about that equipment would be disregarded. I have not heard a thing from AC since and feel confident in my freedoms to use the springpole and flirtpole on my own property.

Perhaps calling your own AC would help put your mind at rest?


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

True..... thanks for the information


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