# Rottie tug problem



## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

I have a problem with my 3months old rottweiler puppy. I was playing tug of war with him for the past motnh with quite a success and managed to change his grip on a tug from chewy to solid firm grip. However I made mistake and tried ti lift him of the ground and he released the tug and I since wont bite as hard. I believe that he is affraid that I might try to lift him again. It was my mistake to go so far too soon. But how do I fix that problem now?
Thanks in advanced ))


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Alen Mikic said:


> I have a problem with my 3months old rottweiler puppy. I was playing tug of war with him for the past motnh with quite a success and managed to change his grip on a tug from chewy to solid firm grip. However I made mistake and tried ti lift him of the ground and he released the tug and I since wont bite as hard. I believe that he is affraid that I might try to lift him again. It was my mistake to go so far too soon. But how do I fix that problem now?
> Thanks in advanced ))


Or you may have pull some teeth loose. Ya, don't do that!

Your dog will soon be teething, IMHO I wouldn't do anymore ruff tug work until adult teeth are in and firm. Like at 7 or 8 mos.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Yep what Edward said, as this is about the time baby teeth start to losen and begin being replaced. If you caused pain with that lifting off the ground you are going to have to work that issue out. Lay off the tug of war for until those permanent teeth come in.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

try just mess with him for a rag and then let him win it easy for a little. then he gets used to it again then you play some tug again but also he is teething soon if not now. So wouldnt worry abut it too much.


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Ok guys thanx a lot for your advice. I do let hm win a rag easily now. IAnd I will w8 for few months until teething is done to resume tug play. Before I had a GSD (a bitch) and lifting of the ground at 3months old was a piece of cake. I guess rotts are more heavy and robust. I guess best will be just to focus on basic obedience and perhaps just a gentle rug play once in a while until teething is over. Thanx


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Any particular plans for your Rottie?


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Yes. I plan to train him as personal protection dog. And prepare him for at least IPO I/Sch I. Idealy I'd like to train him for KNPV PH 1 but I guess I'll need more experience as a trainer for that and a super high drive mal or dutchie 
P.S.
However my main objective for this dog is to be a good personal protection dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Alen Mikic said:


> I have a problem with my 3months old rottweiler puppy. I was playing tug of war with him for the past motnh with quite a success and managed to change his grip on a tug from chewy to solid firm grip. However I made mistake and tried ti lift him of the ground and he released the tug and I since wont bite as hard. I believe that he is affraid that I might try to lift him again. It was my mistake to go so far too soon. But how do I fix that problem now?
> Thanks in advanced ))


 TEETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [-X
Your first mistake wasn't the lifting off the ground, it was thinking about it...


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Thank you for advice. I'm very willing to learn and always open for advice. So please any comments/advice/critique is welcome.

Thank you


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Alen Mikic said:


> Yes. I plan to train him as personal protection dog. And prepare him for at least IPO I/Sch I.


Yep, he'll need teeth for that!:lol::lol:

Sorry couldn't resist.


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

He's got great teeth that will only get better. But it's a good remark. Please give advice/tips. I wonder if I should just quit all bite related work and focus just on obedience for a few months or should I do some agitation work as well?

Thanx


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Alen Mikic said:


> He's got great teeth that will only get better. But it's a good remark. Please give advice/tips. I wonder if I should just quit all bite related work and focus just on obedience for a few months or should I do some agitation work as well?
> 
> Thanx


I believe most here would say just have fun with the dog. No serious OB, no corrections, play ball and build retrieve. Play with the rag without tugging too much, could imprint tracking if your going SchH.

There is plenty of time for bite work. Think 7-8-9 months. 

Lot's of threads here on bringing up a puppy.


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Ok I'll do just that. And just a note: I don't use corrections so far. I train him with markers. And I was planing to incorporate retrieve into he's training. Thanx for advice )


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

You got some great advice...leave the tug play for now until the adult teeth come in and then start slow. I too use markers with my Rott. From the day he arrived in the states we did a shit load of OB (of course building duration according to his age), light tug play, fun, prey drive soft sleeve work with my trainer and lots of muscle memory work for heeling.

At 9 months old I feel he is coming along really nice for a Rott surrounded by Mals, GS's and AMB at our club. Because he is clear headed I do expect and demand more of him now in OB. Bitework is still on a soft sleeve with very little pressure from the decoy. 

Lastly his breeder (Netherlands) feels bitework should not be until he is 12-14 months old. That is her opinion.


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## AJ Johnson (May 1, 2010)

Your breeder in the Netherlands is very smart. Rotts are not like every other breed and if you train them the same you will not get out of them what you want. The best Rotts I have ever worked or seen work were left alone until almost 2 years old and were monsters on anytning you allowed them to bite. If I were you the only thing you should be doing with this Rott as a puppy is retrieve and drive build games. No OB with restriction at all even markesr require restriction and at this point no restriction should be given. I wuld just let him be as wild and crazy as possible until about 12 months at least. You can work on fccus training but leave everyhting else alone and just let him grow up. He is not a Mal or a shep so take the breeder's advice and leave him alone. Socialize him like crazy but thats it. BTW all that prey work your doing now is not going to build you a PP dog in a Rott. Their guarding aggressive edge just clicks in to place as they mature so just wait and you will know when he is ready. Over socialize so he is confident and find a decoy that knows Rotts I implore you to do that they are different then the Majority of breeds being worked right now especially wit the way they are being bred these days


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Alen Mikic said:


> He's got great teeth that will only get better. But it's a good remark. Please give advice/tips. I wonder if I should just quit all bite related work and focus just on obedience for a few months or should I do some agitation work as well?
> 
> Thanx


 And screw him up? I have seen too much OB ruin a dog. Kills the spirit![-X


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Ok. Thank you guys. It's my first rottweiler, and I am trying to find out as much information as I can. So I make this dog a best dog he can be. You all gave me some great breed specific advice.
I'll just do bare basics OB and leash control, and have some rules set to keep he's ever growing dominance under control.

Thanx again


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Go read up on puppy behavior and dominance. 3 months old and dominant ?? Are you sure ?? Remember this is a pup that you just punked the shit out of by picking him up with a rag.... or whatever you really did. Gotta get your terminology right.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Alen Mikic said:


> Ok. Thank you guys. It's my first rottweiler, and I am trying to find out as much information as I can. So I make this dog a best dog he can be. You all gave me some great breed specific advice.
> I'll just do bare basics OB and leash control, and have some rules set to keep he's ever growing dominance under control.
> 
> Thanx again


 Alen before you got this bundle of fluff...did you ever do any reading on working dogs and their behaviors? How is a 3 month old DOMINATE when or IF you are the pack leader? If you can't handle the behaviors at this age or better yet, 8 months, what happens then????

Goldfish aren't too aggressive.................just a thought! Have you spoken with the breeder or a club TD for their insight?[-o<


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Ok. Here is the thing Howard. I live in a small town. There are no dog clubs etc. And most of the people here are ignorant when it comes to dog training. Yes I did research about the breed etc. I also had the dogs all my life. I had a GSD bitch that died in February this year at 12 y/o. I trained her quite well in obedience, off leash heeling etc. I also trained her to bite the sleeve in a pray drive, but never managed to take her to the next level to do it in defense drive. She was not cut for it. But over all we had a great relationship. So I do know quite a bit about dog training, I give advice to many other people. However behavior of this puppy is new to me. I have not had experience with similar dogs. And to answer your question regarding dominance. He wants to be the boss and to be it his way. And when I or my fiance try to restrict or limit what he wants he goes crazy and shows signs of aggression. I took him to the vet just to be on a safe side and he's very healthy. However also very stubborn. And I would have no problem showing him who's to boss. To put max restrains on hes behavior. To control every aspect of he's life. But I'm afraid that it my ruin the dog. I do not want him to be withdrawn, but to be cheerful and playful so when the times come I can do proper protection training with him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Describe this aggression. Video tape it. Rotts are fairly vocal, so I am curious. What you described with the rag work absolutely does not go along with what you are saying at all.


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Go read up on puppy behavior and dominance. 3 months old and dominant ?? Are you sure ?? Remember this is a pup that you just punked the shit out of by picking him up with a rag.... or whatever you really did. Gotta get your terminology right.


Trust me Jeff this puppy is not easily scared. To the contrary. And he still wants to bite the rag etc. It's just that he doesn't do it with intensity. And he is very well socialized to dogs, humans and different environments. Very confident, stubborn and bossy. And willing to growl and bite if things aren't he's way. Which they aren't cause I'm the boss. But the other day he bit my fiance when she opened the front door and he wanted to run out and she stopped him. She grabbed him behind the neck and closed the door. After which he turned back and bit her pretty hard! So he is not innocent little puppy but wanna be boss. Personally I like that his this way. It's gonna make a great PP dog. However I try to educate myself as much as possible so I can provide just enough control to be the boss and not too much to ruin the dog. This my not be dominance it my be bossy aggression or whatever you wanna call it, but it's an issue that needs to be addressed before he's used to this and before he's 120lbs of muscle with huge jaw!


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Hi Alen,

Just my 25 cents here (due to inflation) a 3 month old puppy does nott need to be controlled he needs to be shown acceptable behaviors in a postive way and redirected to the expected behaviors when he is showing you unacceptable behaviors. You understand Marker trainign so stick with it.

Domineering a 3 month old Rottweiler will most assuredly shut him down at some point.

Let him be a puppy, play games and" mark" the behaviors/positions you want. I taught Fin the aus with a plastic water bottle at 10 weeks old...it was a game he liked and he performed the behavior I wanted to capture; retrieve, bring and drop it.

Who is his sire and dam?


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Thanx Doug. That's what I'm trying to do. And I managed to taught him to say "shake hands", Sit, Down, Retrieve but the Aus and down stay are still a problem. I also try to mark positive behaviors and negative mark and redirect unacceptable behaviors. But being very stubborn as he is it's a hard job. But my main concern is that he is overly aggressive to my fiance when she attempts to redirect/correct inappropriate behavior. It came to the point where she's sometimes afraid of him. So you suggest to not put any pressure at all, just use positive marking + redirection. I'll try that for few weeks and report back on the progress. 
Thank you for advice


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

And as for the Sir and Dame I'll post it when I get the paper work. I have it somewhere written, but I haven got official papers yet. 
Cheers


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Depends what you mean pressure? It is easy to get frustrated with a young puppy who wants to run, bite, chase and find his way in his new family...oh yeah eat and shit too!

Would I be using a pinch, choke, grab the puppy by the neck or the alpha roll over...No I would not. If he is too full of energy I would either take Fin for a walk, if he was on point and could do some basic OB I would do that or if he was out of control he went in his crate.

Sounds like your fiance is the problem. She is hesitant and fearful and the pup senses it. 

Don't get me wrongyou may have a SHARP Pup but he sounds more like most Rottweiler puppies and a lot like mine and previous ones.


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Describe this aggression. Video tape it. Rotts are fairly vocal, so I am curious. What you described with the rag work absolutely does not go along with what you are saying at all.


I will try to capture moments of aggression on video. He's not barking or anything just growls and bites 
These are to different issues. Rag and aggression. He was very interested in a cotton tug I made for him. He would grab it shake it and growl and be happy about it. When I take the tug or a rag he awaits and has that look as if I was holding a treat and not the rug. So great pray drive. It's just this once when I lifted him of the ground he released the tug and run away. Later he showed interest in both tug and rug play but as soon as I would try to pull the rug harder he would released it. I guess he was afraid that I might try to lift him of the ground again. But I think it will go away. I'll just put the tug away for few months until teething is over, and focus and play and basic marker training and let him go wild and be a puppy as some of you guys suggested.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Alen,

The tug incident is a perfect example how a Rottweiler reacts to environmental stressors/pain/corrections done too harshly too soon or not worked through....he has not forgotten the pain from playing with the tug and now is not interested.

Stick to food based rewards for now and other games he likes without tug play.


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> Depends what you mean pressure? It is easy to get frustrated with a young puppy who wants to run, bite, chase and find his way in his new family...oh yeah eat and shit too!
> 
> Would I be using a pinch, choke, grab the puppy by the neck or the alpha roll over...No I would not. If he is too full of energy I would either take Fin for a walk, if he was on point and could do some basic OB I would do that or if he was out of control he went in his crate.
> 
> ...


I never hit him or pinch or anything I only did alpha roll over or grab for the neck as their mom did. As for eating and shit I have no problem. He does it all on the balcony. However I don't have a crate. And if I put him on a balcony when he's hyper he starts barking and _I don't wanna people complain about dog barking at 10pm. It's probably normal for rotts. It's just that this is my first Rott and I guess I'll just need to get used to them. And He gets plenty of exercise every day. At least two long walks and play on a field every day. _


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> Alen,
> 
> The tug incident is a perfect example how a Rottweiler reacts to environmental stressors/pain/corrections done too harshly too soon or not worked through....he has not forgotten the pain from playing with the tug and now is not interested.
> 
> Stick to food based rewards for now and other games he likes without tug play.


OK. Thank you Doug. That's what I'll do. I'll just put the tug away for few months.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Suggestion....Get a crate!!!!


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

OK. I will but I know it's gonna be a pain in the ass to crate train him! Cause of my neighbours. When he starts whining at 2am they will kick me out!!!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

You are starting late with the crate.

However, the easiest method of crate training is make it a place he wants to be. Never use the crate as punishment, nor would I put him in the crate if he's acting up. I kept my dog in the crate when I wasn't home from 9 wks to 2 years, now he is free to rome the house, I never find a mess or things torn up.

Acting up usually indicates he's full of energy (good thing), you need to burn that energy! The saying is "A tired pup, is a good pup."

Crate training: Start by leaving the door open all the time, feed the dog in the crate, occational treat in the crate, etc. Every time he voluntarily walks into the crate for food/treat etc. mark the behavior "Good Crate" The first time he walks into the crate by himself mark and reward. Do this many times, and he will soon go into the crate just so he get's a treat, then you can start to skip the treat every other time, every third time, etc.

So acting up: Burn the energy, walk, play whatever. Then return to the house and put a treat in the crate, water bowl, etc. My dog loves to lay on the coldest floor in the house, so I bought a water bed type mattress at Leerburg that stays cool. This soon became his favorite place.

Maybe try and have your fiance feed the dog, take him for walks etc., he will put more value on her in the pack order. She can not show fear, pup will rise above her in the pack.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

your best bet might be to not mess with him at all until you find a club or someone who has some knowledge of working dogs. it sounds like you mean well and you may be great at obedience. but training a dog for protection work is a whole different world. It is not something you just figure out on your own. not trying to put you down just trying to help.


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

sam wilks said:


> your best bet might be to not mess with him at all until you find a club or someone who has some knowledge of working dogs. it sounds like you mean well and you may be great at obedience. but training a dog for protection work is a whole different world. It is not something you just figure out on your own. not trying to put you down just trying to help.


Thank you Sam. I did do some protection work. My last dog was a GSD female and I did managed to get her bite a sleeve on a decoy. It's just that it was always a game for her. And with this dog I plan to move to the next step and take him to bite in fight drive. I have some DVDs regarding bite training. And I will get some more from a friend in Holland. And buy the time he is ready for that type of training (at leas 7-12 months from now) I will try and visit a KNPV club in Croatia and spend few days there and see how they do it, and ask for advice and tips. I will also post my progress and what I do on this forum.


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## Alen Mikic (Feb 14, 2010)

Edward Egan said:


> You are starting late with the crate.
> 
> However, the easiest method of crate training is make it a place he wants to be. Never use the crate as punishment, nor would I put him in the crate if he's acting up. I kept my dog in the crate when I wasn't home from 9 wks to 2 years, now he is free to rome the house, I never find a mess or things torn up.
> 
> ...


Thank you Edward for same very good tips.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sounds like you are getting it. Some dogs will test you all their life. Glad mine aren't pains...


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Alen Mikic said:


> OK. I will but I know it's gonna be a pain in the ass to crate train him! Cause of my neighbours. When he starts whining at 2am they will kick me out!!!


If he starts whining at 2am, get up and take him out to pee.


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