# Terrible Guilt



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

A friend of my wife's came to the front door yesterday just as my son was opening it to go outside and play. Both my dogs were in the house right near the foyer. 

They saw a stranger at the front door and Carly, my female, attacked her. In less than 30 seconds the friend got bit six times. 

This never would have happened if I could talk. I have control of her when I can communicate. I would have shut my nutcase bitch down before anything happened if I could have yelled to her to freeze.

I finally got her shut down in silence with hand signals but not before the damage was done. I never thought about it till now but they have to be watching you to get a message in sign language.

I feel terrible and very guilty!!


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

It'll take some time, but you have to find a way to forgive yourself.
You learn from your mistakes, and you move on.

How is the friend handling it?

An e-collar with a "page" or vibrate function might be your best bet. You can't communicate in sign with a dog that isn't looking at you, but you can teach the dog to look at you in response to the collar.

Ditto for a whistle, which is much easier to wear around your neck 24/7.


----------



## Kirk Russell (Aug 2, 2010)

Have you also worked with the kids to have them be able to control the dogs or do more to let you know you have company. how is the friend doing? Take some time to forgive yourself and then move on to come up with a training solution to this.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Aaron Myracle said:


> It'll take some time, but you have to find a way to forgive yourself.
> You learn from your mistakes, and you move on.
> 
> How is the friend handling it?
> ...


After the incident the friend couldn't even move off the sofa for 10 minutes to pull up her pant leg to see how much damage the dog did. She was just in shock. She didn't even realize until she got home she had a bite on her stomach as well as multiple leg bites.

But she is doing fine.

She was so close to the door when my son opened it I don't know if i could have activated a ecollar or whistle quick enough to save her from at least a couple of bites. I yell from me would have been instant and would have saved a very ugly incident because I was standing right at the door.


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Definitely a good argument for a new family rule that no one opens the front door except mom or dad.


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> She was so close to the door when my son opened it I don't know if i could have activated a ecollar or whistle quick enough to save her from at least a couple of bites. I yell from me would have been instant and would have saved a very ugly incident because I was standing right at the door.


Still.. a painful dog whistle may be your best bet to prevent future incidents like this. Like Aaron said, training the dog(s) that the whistle means to look at you RIGHT AWAY could save them from a number of things. I'd consider it if I were in your position.

Sorry to hear of this incident. Hope she recovers quickly and you guys don't beat yourselves up too much. What's done is done, gotta move forward..


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sorry to hear that Lee . I'd say in your situation management is going to have to play a big part also . Communication with you family on what to do when guests come over . Communication with friends who visit often on what to do . Maybe some kind of latch on the door that only an adult can open . Just some thoughts .


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Sorry to hear about that Lee- crappy Hard lesson learned- it was an unfortunate accident and I am sure it won't happen again, I also hope your friend is ok, and doesn't hit you with medical bills. I agree with those that suggest the whistle-:-\" ( you will always have to have it on-and train your dog to answer to it 100% ) or the e-collar  (the dog will always wear and you wear the controller, as well as teaching your family, to be aware where are the dogs before opening the dog to a visitor- and set the rules-this is one of the huge responsibilities we take on having these types of dogs.....:wink:


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> An e-collar with a "page" or vibrate function might be your best bet.


Be very careful, e-collars are not magic wands. With certain dogs an e-collar stim at that time would have increased the seriousness of the injuries by a magnitude. Hope you find a workable solution.


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Be very careful, e-collars are not magic wands. With certain dogs an e-collar stim at that time would have increased the seriousness of the injuries by a magnitude." 

_Faisal is 100% correct-and like any training aid-dog has to be taught what is expected first and see the individual dog's response to the e-collar before slamming a harsh correction-that would probably be given in the excitement of this situation- the dog could preceive the correction to be coming from the guest and really fight back- but Lee didn't you do e-collar training with your dog in the past for OB?.


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> Be very careful, e-collars are not magic wands. With certain dogs an e-collar stim at that time would have increased the seriousness of the injuries by a magnitude. Hope you find a workable solution.


Which is why I said "page" and "vibrate", not stim.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Yes Mo. She is very familiar with ecollar corrections. She didn't have it on at the time. It would have stopped her immediately. She is very responsive to any corrections or frankly any OB that comes from me. 

Don't misunderstand There are no excuses for me as handler. I'm new to this lack of communication situation and never thought about hand signals need to be seen by the dog to be effective.

I already carry a electronic microphone in one hand most of the day. I have no difficulty carrying a ecollar transmitters in my other two free hands (that requires 3 hands) and a whistle around my neck in the comfort of my own home. I'm being a bit sarcastic because I am SO frustrated with myself.

I need to choose the best solutions I can come up with and put them in place. The timing of this event was a unbelievable set of circumstances. It was the PERFECT STORM caused by the fact the I can't simply yell to the dog.

It won't happen again.


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Another thought is to teach the dog to respond to a loud clap [something that you don't need anything other than your hands for] by looking back at you.

Although this could become problematic in other situations where other sounds could *possibly* be mistaken for your "look" signal.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Throw that useless emotion away. It has already happened, and now you just need to redesign your front doorway so that two doors have to be opened, so you can block the dog and allow someone to answer the door safely.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Another thought is to teach the dog to respond to a loud clap [something that you don't need anything other than your hands for] by looking back at you.
> 
> Although this could become problematic in other situations where other sounds could *possibly* be mistaken for your "look" signal.


Believe it or not that is how I got their attention. My male, Whiskey, was out there to during the commotion. He was not participating in her "feeding frenzy".

They both immediately sat and stayed there until we got my wife's friend in the door.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Throw that useless emotion away. It has already happened, and now you just need to redesign your front doorway so that two doors have to be opened, so you can block the dog and allow someone to answer the door safely.


excellent idea...like one of those wrought iron security doors that have a deadbolt. They have those all over the place here...you could even get one custom made with dogs on it


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> After the incident the friend couldn't even move off the sofa for 10 minutes to pull up her pant leg to see how much damage the dog did. She was just in shock. She didn't even realize until she got home she had a bite on her stomach as well as multiple leg bites.


How many stitches ??


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"I'm new to this lack of communication situation"

_Lee-I thought you had done e-collar training in the past, now use that to re-inforce your whistle command, or whatever command technique you want to use to get your dog to respond to you...the e collar is just a tool to use- and if you teach them to respond to something else, other than your voice or hand cues- once they learn, you won't have to have the e collar on- just like you used it when you sharpened up your OB training..But YOU know this, you know how to use an ecollar..... you were dealt a hard hand- beat it,frustration is getting in the way.. don't let it get you so frustrated- . be strong- and take on the challenge- the challenge to overcome your new disability, and the challenge of training your dogs with a different form of training- this accident won't happen again- you know it, and now just proof it. As far as wearing a whistle all the time around your neck- well you will just look like a cool French Ringer and if someone bugs you in town, blow your whistle and give them some kind of hand gesture-or let your kids know, if they hear you blow the whistle, that means stop and look at you,come to you...it is an emergency kind of thing...so you will not only look cool, it will be functional with your dogs and more :-k and know we care about you on the WDF here \\/


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

The best solution is prevention, then training. In this scenario you need backups or believe me it will happen again. Can not rely on just training in this situation as variables are variables because they change every time. For example, if the battery dies in the transmitter or receiver, if the contacts are loose, if you have the wrong transmitter in your hand etc etc, you need backups in case the primary fails.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> How many stitches ??


You know Gerry, I don't know because my wife and I have not asked. Her husband is a physician. When I looked at the leg only one puncture looked bad enough to maybe require stitches. Luckily her friend was wearing full length jeans.

It was not the time and still isn't the time to have a big defensive discussion with my wife explaining these were warning bites and my dog was not fully committed to really tearing her friend up.

We got asked about rabies vaccinations. I would think we would have heard if stitches were necessary, maybe. This friend is quite protective of my wife and knows there have been some difficult times with this cancer issue.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Which is why I said "page" and "vibrate", not stim.


The kind of dogs in subject, when in drive will not acknowledge vibrators etc. If they do then ....


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> The kind of dogs in subject, when in drive will not acknowledge vibrators etc. If they do then ....


That's akin to saying that they wouldn't have acknowledged Lee's voice while in drive.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> That's akin to saying that they wouldn't have acknowledged Lee's voice while in drive.


No, totally different. They "know" what the consequences are through training.

Look I am not here to argue with you but if you insist then ok, Lee please use the vibrate function.


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> No, totally different. They "know" what the consequences are through training.
> 
> Look I am not here to argue with you but if you insist then ok, Lee please use the vibrate function.


One, that was low.

Two, I never said that there shouldn't be training involved.
But you can train the dog to respond to the pager function just as much as your voice, a whistle or any other command. The dog can be taught to respond to the vibration of the page function by looking to Lee for a command just as much as the dog can be taught to look at Lee by the command "look".

In fact, wow, wouldja lookit that? My first post was:


Aaron Myracle said:


> An e-collar with a "page" or vibrate function might be your best bet. You can't communicate in sign with a dog that isn't looking at you, but you can *teach the dog* to look at you in response to the collar.


You proof that command just like you would any other command.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Cool, problem solved


----------



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

I am going to be the odd ball here. 

In your profile it says you train in personal protection and how in the world can you train your dog in personal protection using signs and NOT being aware that your dog actually has to see you giving those signs... 

That was an accident waiting to happen. If you have a trainer, fire him!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> I am going to be the odd ball here.
> 
> In your profile it says you train in personal protection and how in the world can you train your dog in personal protection using signs and NOT being aware that your dog actually has to see you giving those signs...
> 
> That was an accident waiting to happen. If you have a trainer, fire him!


Sandra, there is some history here that you are probably not aware of. I always was able to communicate verbally. Due to cancer my vocal chords were removed just a few months ago.

Both myself and the dogs are primarily accustomed to voice commands. The sole use of hand signals is a recent, forced by circumstances development.

This is certainly my fault but I am still trying as hard as I can, as fast as I can to figure out how the work with my dogs with no voice communication. I obviously failed in this circumstance.


----------



## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Take this for what it is worth: Given your state of health, it may be time to reevaluate the type of dog you can safely handle.


----------



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Agreed. What happens to the dog now? 

Will she sue you over? In most States (from what I learned) it would be a death sentence to the dog.

It is terrible what happened. But aren't you doing it long enough to know that a dog has to see the signs? Common Sense..especially with PPD's.... Anyhow, I am not here to talk down on you.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> Agreed. What happens to the dog now?
> 
> Will she sue you over? In most States (from what I learned) it would be a death sentence to the dog.
> 
> It is terrible what happened. But aren't you doing it long enough to know that a dog has to see the signs? Common Sense..especially with PPD's.... Anyhow, I am not here to talk down on you.


No lawsuit nor legal actions of any kind. I am fortunate that this was a friend.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

catherine hardigan said:


> Take this for what it is worth: Given your state of health, it may be time to reevaluate the type of dog you can safely handle.


Agreed!


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am going to add to the two door idea. It adds some security anyway and kids are unpredictable. Keep it as a ritual each and every time and he is less likely to forget.

What would be the downside?

I don't think you can count on the collar always being on. You being there. Etc.


----------



## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

Sandra King said:


> I am going to be the odd ball here.
> 
> In your profile it says you train in personal protection and how in the world can you train your dog in personal protection using signs and NOT being aware that your dog actually has to see you giving those signs...
> 
> That was an accident waiting to happen. If you have a trainer, fire him!


Training no make dog like this. Dog do this with training or no. We use this dog for police. Sounds like good dog in right place. It sounded like a accident. No lots of people should have, but ok he know what dog can do.

Probable much peopel who have dog for protection wishes they had real dog, but they not have. They train for angry, but dog not real. Same in Mexico with some rich people. They no understand difference. :lol: 

This what happen with real dog on men. Dog like bite anywhere, not just for training _when owner ready._


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

no sense adding the obvious fuk ups and about reconsidering if it's time to turn over the dog, 

but what i would like to add is i hope you make a LOT of effort to make sure this doesn't have any lasting trauma for the victim
EVEN if they say it's OK, no problem etc etc 
push it until they do it and they will be better off down the road

victims don't always want to admit to a fear or phobia developing until it's there, and i could care less what kind of doc the "other" is 

what i would do is get the two back together in a VERY friendly low key meeting that clears her head not only about this dog but all others.....the sooner the better !! that is your responsibility and even if the victim doesn't think it's necessary IT IS
- until the victim can actually put her hands on that dog, feed it treats and pet it, it will be playing on her head consciously or subconsciously
- obviously the meet/greet should be totally planned out and absolutely controlled
- these DO work.....don't ask me how i know  my dingo bit an old lady on the butt and it took a LOT of persuasion to get her over for some green tea and dog treats, and WELL worth the effort when it was over ... but having my dog rest his head on her lap instead of sticking his muzzle up her ass made a big impression on the old lady

know nothing about your dog, but obviously i'm assuming this is an "easy day" for the dog to handle; if not it should no longer be a house dog and never off lead in one


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hugho Aldaco said:


> Training no make dog like this. Dog do this with training or no. We use this dog for police. Sounds like good dog in right place. It sounded like a accident. No lots of people should have, but ok he know what dog can do.
> 
> Probable much peopel who have dog for protection wishes they had real dog, but they not have. They train for angry, but dog not real. Same in Mexico with some rich people. They no understand difference. :lol:
> 
> This what happen with real dog on men. Dog like bite anywhere, not just for training _when owner ready._


I'm not going to say much other than you are exactly correct with this dog.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

rick smith said:


> no sense adding the obvious fuk ups and about reconsidering if it's time to turn over the dog,
> 
> but what i would like to add is i hope you make a LOT of effort to make sure this doesn't have any lasting trauma for the victim
> EVEN if they say it's OK, no problem etc etc
> ...


Not possible with this dog. Like I tried to describe this was the perfect storm timing wise created by my recent lack of ability to communicate.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Rick, I will give some serious thought about what I can do to help the victim with any lasting mental issues she might have. I did not consider that until your post. Thanks, I appreciate it.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "not possible with this dog"

seems a bit contradictory from what you said in the beginning :

re : "This never would have happened if I could talk. I have control of her when I can communicate"

responsibility is the same - "too hard" or "never gonna happen" doesn't take the monkey off.....find a similar dog; not as good but better than doing nothing. you caused the problem you need to fix it.....don't take my opinion ...ask someone who does it professionally and pay money to verify if it's appropriate or not....i'd like to hear their opinion more than a dumb dog trainer like me

the hispanic post was a funny read but totally irrelevant in my opinion

i could never know for sure but i would think this type of "perfect storm" occurs with a lot more regularity than you may think since similar perfect storms have happened with a few of my customers over the years in my little small town in the middle of nowhere....has happened to me b4 too when i made a house call to evaluate a dog, but i expect em and try to be prepared in advance


----------



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> No lawsuit nor legal actions of any kind. I am fortunate that this was a friend.


That is a really good friend. 

Whatever happens, I hope it'll turn out good for everybody involved. 

While I am not a friend of crating, for now, I'd crate the dog anytime somebody is coming over until the issue is worked out.

And for the real dog remark. You can have a real dog and still trust him around strangers! Even if they are trained in bite work!


----------



## Hugho Aldaco (May 7, 2011)

What Rick say is exact what I say about rich mexicans. They buy training from anyone like Rick because they say expert. They take money in past, they know all. Dog is what dog is. No change. But rick take their money anyway! I already say, they no understand difference. Help with dog is obvious, you put away or sell. That's what Rick takes money for probable. Money make professional only.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

rick smith said:


> re: "not possible with this dog"
> 
> seems a bit contradictory from what you said in the beginning :
> 
> ...


Let me put it this way. This was my "perfect storm" after many, many dogs and years of dog ownership. This was the first time this happened and it happened because I can't communicate.

I'm not sure what you mean by contradictory. The dog is obedient but will not tolerate petting outside her pack. It never has been encouraged in any fashion by me and I sure don't want to start now.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> That is a really good friend.
> 
> Whatever happens, I hope it'll turn out good for everybody involved.
> 
> ...


The dog IS put away every time someone is expected. In this circumstance my son opened the front door at the exact moment the friend stepped on the front entry steps. We did not expect any company. I was standing right there with my son. I could not yell "freeze".


----------



## Holden Sawyer (Feb 22, 2011)

Lee, I am sorry to hear about this accident. Dealing with cancer and the various disabilities that crop up - not fun. Have had a few minor "perfect storms" around here due to ****ing cancer and the side effects/meds/disabilites caused by treatments. A couple involved the dogs, luckily very minor (but I still beat myself up plenty). So many crazy adjustments and *** ups that happen as we have had to adopt new routines. For some reason I haven't been able to think of everything that might happen every time, and usually it is the one thing I didn't think of that blows up. It is so incredibly frustrating. Hang in there guy. 

Holden


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Lee,

I kept wondering where you were in all this physically. If you were standing right at the door, you couldn't grab her by the collar before she chewed the woman up with 6 bites? I wouldn't trust gadgets/collars, obedience training. I keep trying to imagine how this happened--kid opened door and dog goes past him and you and get to the woman? When my son was growing up and running in and out of the house, the dogs were either under my voice control in a room with me or in their crates in the bedroom with the door shut. Ya never knew when a kid or sometimes a delivery person would show up at the front door. Chances are, mine won't tag a kid but I was never going to risk it. We pretty much keep the front door closed and only an adult can open it with the dogs on a down stay away from the door. We also train that the dog doesn't go through a door unless told to do so and the human otherwise goes first.

How did you get the dogs to stay while you got the woman in the house with no voice. She's a different person from me. Not for love or money would I have trusted to walk past them after that. 

Terrasita


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Lee,
> 
> I kept wondering where you were in all this physically. If you were standing right at the door, you couldn't grab her by the collar before she chewed the woman up with 6 bites? I wouldn't trust gadgets/collars, obedience training. I keep trying to imagine how this happened--kid opened door and dog goes past him and you and get to the woman? When my son was growing up and running in and out of the house, the dogs were either under my voice control in a room with me or in their crates in the bedroom with the door shut. Ya never knew when a kid or sometimes a delivery person would show up at the front door. Chances are, mine won't tag a kid but I was never going to risk it. We pretty much keep the front door closed and only an adult can open it with the dogs on a down stay away from the door. We also train that the dog doesn't go through a door unless told to do so and the human otherwise goes first.
> 
> ...


This was 30 seconds, maximum. The dogs, my son and I were in the foyer. As I recall the dogs were first out the door when they saw the friend at the steps. I was behind my son. There was not time to grab collars. 

The friend did not go past the dogs to come in the house. The dogs were on "stay" past the friend and front door.

The dogs don't charge out the front door normally. The friend was right at the steps. Animals are not fool proof. This time they did go out the door apparently because the friend was 3 feet away.

I try to take all precautions. This time I failed to plan for the precise timing of these events and recent lack of my normal communication abilities.

They know hand signals. After I reacted to what was taking place, I got their visual attention and put them on "stay".

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I wish they were robots. I wish they were as diciplined as they once were before I got sick.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> no sense adding the obvious fuk ups and about reconsidering if it's time to turn over the dog,
> 
> but what i would like to add is i hope you make a LOT of effort to make sure this doesn't have any lasting trauma for the victim
> EVEN if they say it's OK, no problem etc etc
> ...


. I'm all for the well being of the victim but pushing something on them they don't want is out of line . If you have a dog conducive for that a suggestion and offer that that may help is enough . On top of that giving that advice over the internet when you don't know how the dog is going to react around an already frightened and nervous individual is downright dangerous .


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> This was 30 seconds, maximum. The dogs, my son and I were in the foyer. As I recall the dogs were first out the door when they saw the friend at the steps. I was behind my son. There was not time to grab collars.
> 
> The friend did not go past the dogs to come in the house. The dogs were on "stay" past the friend and front door.
> 
> ...


I need to clarify one thing, Terrasita. Paragrafh 2 of the response above is responding to your statement that the friend walked past the dogs after the event to get in the house. She did not have to pass by the dogs to go in the house.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> . I'm all for the well being of the victim but pushing something on them they don't want is out of line . If you have a dog conducive for that a suggestion and offer that that may help is enough . On top of that giving that advice over the internet when you don't know how the dog is going to react around an already frightened and nervous individual is downright dangerous .


I can't be certain, but we just spoke with the friend. She SEEMS fine. There does not seem to be any adverse issues going on. She was laughing with my wife over something that happened with a mutual acquaintance.

I asked if there was anything we could do and she laughed and told me forget about it. 

This dog was not fully committed to the bites. If she was a lot more damage would have taken place. It was more like get the hell out of here type stuff. 

I'm not minimizing what took place. I just know the dog.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I can't be certain, but we just spoke with the friend. She SEEMS fine. There does not seem to be any adverse issues going on. She was laughing with my wife over something that happened with a mutual acquaintance.
> 
> I asked if there was anything we could do and she laughed and told me forget about it.
> 
> ...


That's good Lee . I wasn't worried about you taking Rick's advice . But there are others who may read it and try it. I've seen many victims of dogbites and their fear and reaction to dogs after being bitten can trigger many dogs(much less the dog that bit them) to react aggressively towards them . For a positive exposure to a dog to be successful you not only have to know the dog very well but the victim and their possible reactions as well . The guy doesn't know you , your dog or the victim yet he encourages you to push the victim into a scenerio where she may get bitten again . I wonder if he put much thought into what might happen if she gets bitten a second time ?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I need to clarify one thing, Terrasita. Paragrafh 2 of the response above is responding to your statement that the friend walked past the dogs after the event to get in the house. She did not have to pass by the dogs to go in the house.


 
Lee,

You describe your bitch in a feeding frenzy, yet you were able to somehow get her attention with a hand signal and then put both dogs in a down stay while you assisted the friend. Sorry, for me, I would have been more comfortable if you would have secured the dogs. But you have a lot more faith in your training than I have in mine. First order of business is to get dog under physical control---by collar, leash, etc. and secure him--generally means crate in a locked room. My rule of thumb with a serious dog is to be in control of his head--physically in certain situations. Disaster usually strikes around entrances and exits because they are triggers. Prepare for that. Dogs don't get to go out the door ahead of me and when I answer the door, I down the dogs several feet away. Dogs aren't loose or able to get to the door when kid is going in and out to play, etc. Kid time around here has usually been between the hours of 3--8 so during those times, dogs are in a room with a door closed with me or in their crates behind a door they can't open. 

As far as not committed to the bite, sounds pretty committed to me if she got 6 in within 30 seconds and before seeing the hand signal. 


Terrasita


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Lee,
> 
> You describe your bitch in a feeding frenzy, yet you were able to somehow get her attention with a hand signal and then put both dogs in a down stay while you assisted the friend. Sorry, for me, I would have been more comfortable if you would have secured the dogs. But you have a lot more faith in your training than I have in mine. First order of business is to get dog under physical control---by collar, leash, etc. and secure him--generally means crate in a locked room. My rule of thumb with a serious dog is to be in control of his head--physically in certain situations. Disaster usually strikes around entrances and exits because they are triggers. Prepare for that. Dogs don't get to go out the door ahead of me and when I answer the door, I down the dogs several feet away. Dogs aren't loose or able to get to the door when kid is going in and out to play, etc. Kid time around here has usually been between the hours of 3--8 so during those times, dogs are in a room with a door closed with me or in their crates behind a door they can't open.
> 
> ...



Somehow this got mixed in with your post and I don't know how to move it. My response post is the last 2 paragraphs in the body of your post.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_Like I had the luxury of time! LOL I got them on sit stay and the my wife got the lady inside. I got their attention with a hand clap. I already posted that._

_I don't know about your dogs but this Dutchie can do harm if she really wants to bite someone hard._

Lee, do you think what has happened is not so bad really because your dog bit the friend six times and she _seems_ to be ok_ ?_

Or that because you've been sick, that has admonished you of any real responsibility ?

I'm sorry you've had a trying time with being sick, but reading the posts here you are sounding like a daft laddie, get a grip and stop feeling so damn sorry for yourself! I wonder how your wife must be feeling about all of this.

I probably shouldn't have said that, but hell other than Terrasita hinting on it, no-one else here is talking to you straight. You're not getting my sympathy vote here for your supposed guilt trip, in fact you still sound like you're edging on just how tuff your dogs are and yet have nothing solid in place. Not good.

Maybe this is just my mean Scottish interpretation in play...I'm certainly not looking to offend you, but just telling you straight.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ok, time to call me an asshole again :lol:

6 bites give or take, one to the belly and no stitches... but the dog can do real damage if it wants to ??
I don't think so.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Lee you have always helped me in the past, thanks, so i hate to see you in this situation. 

some of the advice and questions you are getting it seems the posters are speaking from an ideal training situation, maybe they need consider the lifechanging ordeal which you are going through and the impact that is having on eveything you have to re-learn including your new ways to find to live with your pack, things are not the same.

the blow you have had would knock most people on their ass permanently, i've worked in an oncology ward i know what i am talking about.

this is a suckful situation you should be feeling very bad because an innocent got hurt by your pack members, you shouldn't feel guilty as that is an unproductive BS emotion based in self pity.

learn, re-adjust, get support, change the infra-structure in your home, adapt ....

this incidnt was a wake up call/reality check now go act man.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> _Like I had the luxury of time! LOL I got them on sit stay and the my wife got the lady inside. I got their attention with a hand clap. I already posted that._
> 
> _I don't know about your dogs but this Dutchie can do harm if she really wants to bite someone hard._
> 
> ...


No self pity. In its simplest form I already said it is pilot error. I already sad it would not have happened if I could have yelled. It is well documented here that the female is not a easy dog to handle.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Ok, time to call me an asshole again :lol:
> 
> 6 bites give or take, one to the belly and no stitches... but the dog can do real damage if it wants to ??
> I don't think so.


Yawn! We kind of went down this tired road before, Gerry. I don't intend to go down it again. LOL


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> It is well documented here that the female is not a easy dog to handle.


That and $4 will get you a gallon of gas.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee,

I was just thinking about your kid that was there.If it is not too personal of a question: how is he/she handling all of this?

I think it would depend on the age, but this type of thing could be fairly traumatic for the kid involved as well.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Lee you have always helped me in the past, thanks, so i hate to see you in this situation.
> 
> some of the advice and questions you are getting it seems the posters are speaking from an ideal training situation, maybe they need consider the lifechanging ordeal which you are going through and the impact that is having on eveything you have to re-learn including your new ways to find to live with your pack, things are not the same.
> 
> ...



Thanks Peter. Your post is what I'm trying to do in real life. I threw myself plenty of pity parties months ago. Those are long over and it's time to try to kick more ass.:smile:


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Lee,
> 
> I was just thinking about your kid that was there.If it is not too personal of a question: how is he/she handling all of this?
> 
> I think it would depend on the age, but this type of thing could be fairly traumatic for the kid involved as well.


He is now 9 years old. He is doing fine. That is probably because once the friend calmed down she handled the situation well.

I don't see any lasting trauma with anyone other than me beating myself up.

Thank god like Gerry says the dog can't bite well.:smile::razz:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> No self pity. In its simplest form I already said it is pilot error. I already sad it would not have happened if I could have yelled. It is well documented here that the female is not a easy dog to handle.


Lee,

You've known for quite some time that you can't control them by voice and that the male was challenging your authority. You bought them for the express purpose of having a dog that would bite. You've left the crate door open on the truck so the male could get out to bite. Yeah, their difficulty level and propensities are well documented, which is why I'm always surprised your management of them is so nonchalant and the chances you take. 

As far as "real damage," I think the experience itself is real damage. I've owned two dogs that I would label serious in my adult like and nooooo, there wouldn't have been 6 bites---maybe 6 punctures in the pattern of the dog's teeth. But I don't get into the bad assed dog chest pounding stuff. Your friend sounds like an exceptional person that can laugh off a dog attack but most people are affected by it no matter how minimal the bite wound. In Costa Rico there are no dog laws. The cops think its funny if the dog bites the thief. You don't have to worry about BSL, hiked insurance rates, etc. Protect your dogs Lee and protect yourself and your family with a better management plan.

Terrasita


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Thank god like Gerry says the dog can't bite well.:smile::razz:


I've been bitten through long johns/pants and snow gear by sleddogs and received stitches, I've been bitten by accident when playing ball with a dog and received stitches.

Maybe I just have toilet paper skin, but if I got multiple bites I would expect stitches, my granddaughter got 50 from a pet dog, they were plastic surgeon stitches so that would be the equivalent of maybe 20 regular but still...


Honestly, you keep bragging these dogs up and people are telling you how to protect the world from them, it's ridiculous.

I'm finished now, good luck.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Lee,
> 
> I was just thinking about your kid that was there.If it is not too personal of a question: how is he/she handling all of this?
> 
> I think it would depend on the age, but this type of thing could be fairly traumatic for the kid involved as well.


Man Lee you started a drama queen thread here, on top of it everyone knows better than you. If your kids traumatized by this just whip in the ass with your cane every time he brings it up to give him something else to think of.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've been bitten through long johns/pants and snow gear by sleddogs and received stitches, I've been bitten by accident when playing ball with a dog and received stitches.
> 
> Maybe I just have toilet paper skin, but if I got multiple bites I would expect stitches, my granddaughter got 50 from a pet dog, they were plastic surgeon stitches so that would be the equivalent of maybe 20 regular but still...
> 
> ...






Like I said Gerry, the same old tired jealous road. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. LEE


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Man Lee you started a drama queen thread here, on top of it everyone knows better than you. If your kids traumatized by this just whip in the ass with your cane every time he brings it up to give him something else to think of.


Hey Chris - You know me. I know how to bring em out of hiding, don't I? I want to use my cane on some the posters.#-o


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Like I said Gerry, the same old tired jealous road. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. LEE


 
Lee, I'm the only one here dishing out the truth so far. I would never be jealous of any person that owns a fearbiting dog.

That's always been my story and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Lee,
> 
> You've known for quite some time that you can't control them by voice and that the male was challenging your authority. You bought them for the express purpose of having a dog that would bite. You've left the crate door open on the truck so the male could get out to bite. Yeah, their difficulty level and propensities are well documented, which is why I'm always surprised your management of them is so nonchalant and the chances you take.
> 
> ...


I got back over a year ago now. How would you know these dogs have been mismanaged or I have been nonchalant in handling them since I returned. If you think that you don't have a clue what you the hell are talking about. Am I perfect? No way. But I am a responsible person.


----------



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> He is now 9 years old. He is doing fine. That is probably because once the friend calmed down she handled the situation well.
> 
> I don't see any lasting trauma with anyone other than me beating myself up.
> 
> Thank god like Gerry says the dog can't bite well.:smile::razz:


And that is your first mistake!

Anyone, even people like us, that grew up around real and hard dogs, can always suffer from a trauma when they are being attacked and bitten six times. 

I wasn't there but from your first post it sounded like your dog seriously mauled your friend. 

The dog attacked a person. You did not have the dog under control. Yeah, it's terrible that you went through all the medical stuff, but it's time to wake up. WHAT if it is your childs friend, next time? 

You really think it doesn't affect a 9 year old child seeing somebody mauled by a dog? 

WAKE UP!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Lee, I'm the only one here dishing out the truth so far. I would never be jealous of any person that owns a fearbiting dog.
> 
> That's always been my story and I'm sticking to it.


 I know your feelings. Gerry. I know your feelings so well. There is no way to respond to this funny belief you claim to have.:-\"


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey Chris - You know me. I know how to bring em out of hiding, don't I? I want to use my cane on some the posters.#-o




Maybe you should go use your cane on yourself.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> And that is your first mistake!
> 
> Anyone, even people like us, that grew up around real and hard dogs, can always suffer from a trauma when they are being attacked and bitten six times.
> 
> ...


Where did I say it didn't affect him. I said he is doing fine and I don't detect any long lasting trauma from a 30 second incident. I said the friend handled it well once she calmed down in the house. That helped a lot. My son and I had our own talk last night. That helped a lot.

There won't be a next time.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Maybe you should go use your cane on yourself.


I will consider that and using it on people like you and a few others who aren't trying to help other than join the feeding frenzy that accomplishes nothing other than trash talk. I already took responsibility for this mishap. We can beat this to death with a hundred posts that changes nothing.

There is one of those glass eyes that can be looked through prior to opening a door getting installed tomorrow. I have taken some other steps to make sure this does not happen again.

I've gotten a lot of PM suggestions without all of this dramatic useless BS.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I will buy that and people like you and a few others who aren't trying to help other than join the feeding frenzy that accomplishes nothing other than trash talk. I already took responsibility for this mishap.
> 
> There is one of those glass eyes that can be looked through prior to opening a door getting installed tomorrow. I have taken some other steps to make sure this does not happen again.
> 
> I've gotten a lot of PM suggestions without a this dramatic useless BS.


 You mentioned how you and the woman handled the situation. I was just curious about the kid. Nothing more.

Sorry you read more into than there was. ](*,)

There was no judgement on my part. But you can believe what you will.

Glad to hear you took Jeff's door suggestion. I thought it was a good one.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I've gotten a lot of PM suggestions without all of this dramatic useless BS.


Why didn't you just pm the people you thought would be helpful to you in this situation then..instead of constantly trying to convince people you have no buisness owning a dog ?


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> You mentioned how you and the woman handled the situation. I was just curious about the kid. Nothing more.
> 
> Sorry you read more into than there was. ](*,)
> 
> ...


I was referring to the cane whipping. I thought that was intentionally sarcastic but maybe not. There has been some honest effort put into helping me with some preventative ideas on this mess. I thank those people.

I appreciate you wondering about my 9 year old son's potential trauma. 

I've been hanging out here for a while so I know what goes on with threads like this. Mixed into those valuable posts has been some BS which I expected when I started this thread.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Lee, they smell blood and they smell weakness so of course they come, its the rules.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why didn't you just pm the people you thought would be helpful to you in this situation then..instead of constantly trying to convince people you have no buisness owning a dog ?


OMG, Gerry, does it ever stop with you?\\/

I think YOU are a FEAR BITER:lol:

I thought done were done and wished me good luck.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Lee, they smell blood and they smell weakness so of course they come, its the rules.


They might smell it but I can do this crap all night!\\/


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ya but you might be traumatized in the morning. Even people like you, wake up, that’s your first mistake, use the cane on yourself. All this with Gerry kicking you here and there. 
So whats your drinking habits? … hey were you drinking when this happened?


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I will consider that and using it on people like you and a few others who aren't trying to help other than join the feeding frenzy that accomplishes nothing other than trash talk. I already took responsibility for this mishap. We can beat this to death with a hundred posts that changes nothing.
> 
> There is one of those glass eyes that can be looked through prior to opening a door getting installed tomorrow. I have taken some other steps to make sure this does not happen again.
> 
> I've gotten a lot of PM suggestions without all of this dramatic useless BS.


 
I bet you would like to retitle this....Terrible...decision to post this! LOL

Shit happens bro!


----------



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I was referring to the cane whipping. I thought that was intentionally sarcastic but maybe not. There has been some honest effort put into helping me with some preventative ideas on this mess. I thank those people.
> 
> I appreciate you wondering about my 9 year old son's potential trauma.
> 
> I've been hanging out here for a while so I know what goes on with threads like this. Mixed into those valuable posts has been some BS which I expected when I started this thread.


What do you expect? Your dog attacked a visitor and bit her six times and you are lucky enough that she doesn't sue you over and it doesn't end up in the news and your dog isn't put down. Dogs are put down for less. 

It's an unfortunate accident that probably could have been prevented and sugar coating the event isn't going to change anything. I still can't get over this part:



> *I finally got her shut down in silence with hand signals but not before the damage was done. I never thought about it till now but they have to be watching you to get a message in sign language.*


Sorry if I sound like a bitch, but your friend is an exceptional person and I hope you realize how lucky you truly are... I would have probably sued you over for blatant stupidity in training a PPD with hand signals and not realizing that the dog has to actually see those signals... they might have removed your vocal chords (which I am extremely sorry that you have had to go through all that) but they didn't remove your brain!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Lee, they smell blood and they smell weakness so of course they come, its the rules.


Oh please, talk about drama. Most of us have been on here since this bitch was a puppy. We have read what the pup's breeder has said about the line's propensities and the purpose for which the bitch was acquired. There have been a number of advice threads in the aftermath of mishaps or near misses. Then there was the set up bite scenario with the thief and the male dog on the back of the pick up truck. Its a tight security type of dog, pure and simple, from what the breeders have indicated and the stories Lee have told. So treat it that way. I wouldn't think anyone with a dog of this caliber would need advice on how to keep it and others safe around it. 


Terrasita


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> I
> Shit happens bro!


About says it all


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ya but you might be traumatized in the morning. Even people like you, wake up, that’s your first mistake, use the cane on yourself. All this with Gerry kicking you here and there.
> So whats your drinking habits? … hey were you drinking when this happened?


No nor tonight but it is a descent idea now that you mention it. Then I maybe can get butt hurt with some of these nut cases here and try to take them seriously.:smile:


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> What do you expect? Your dog attacked a visitor and bit her six times and you are lucky enough that she doesn't sue you over and it doesn't end up in the news and your dog isn't put down. Dogs are put down for less.
> 
> It's an unfortunate accident that probably could have been prevented and sugar coating the event isn't going to change anything. I still can't get over this part:
> 
> ...


Go have a Twinkie, maybe you’ll feel better. Ad ya I believe you would sue your friends, love your kind. And why did you post a picture of yourself with two bite coats on at once when you say your in SARs. Go ahead answer me that one!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh please, talk about drama. Most of us have been on here since this bitch was a puppy. We have read what the pup's breeder has said about the line's propensities and the purpose for which the bitch was acquired. There have been a number of advice threads in the aftermath of mishaps or near misses. Then there was the set up bite scenario with the thief and the male dog on the back of the pick up truck. Its a tight security type of dog, pure and simple, from what the breeders have indicated and the stories Lee have told. So treat it that way. I wouldn't think anyone with a dog of this caliber would need advice on how to keep it and others safe around it.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Give me a freaking break. You can play your little games Terresita but they won't work with me. If I had questions with this dog I always asked questions on the this forum or other people on line or via telephone. I choose people whose opinions I respect pay attention to and pick their brain. Buzz off if you consider that irresponsible dog ownership.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> What do you expect? Your dog attacked a visitor and bit her six times and you are lucky enough that she doesn't sue you over and it doesn't end up in the news and your dog isn't put down. Dogs are put down for less.
> 
> It's an unfortunate accident that probably could have been prevented and sugar coating the event isn't going to change anything. I still can't get over this part:
> 
> ...


I almost missed this post. Who the **** are you anyway. I know some of the other know it all's on here like Terrisita from previous fun I had with them and their BS.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> I bet you would like to retitle this....Terrible...decision to post this! LOL
> 
> Shit happens bro!


I expected some of this but a couple of the B*****S must be - oh forget it!:lol:


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I expected some of this but a couple of the B*****S must be oh forget it!:lol:


 
:wink:


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This thread is like therapy for your recent traumatic experience you witnessed, you forgot all about the guilt. Those 30 seconds must have been much worse than what you experienced in Vietnam.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh please, talk about drama. Most of us have been on here since this bitch was a puppy. We have read what the pup's breeder has said about the line's propensities and the purpose for which the bitch was acquired.


Not exactly true, we've only read about what the breeder of the sire of this dog had to say about the lines..but we all know it would be foolish to believe everything you read.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Not exactly true, we've only read about what the breeder of the sire of this dog had to say about the lines..but we all know it would be foolish to believe everything you read.


Yeah, that's true. But now that Lee has had his fun and forgot all about his guilt, I say we leave it up to the people he respects.


Terrasita


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Not exactly true, we've only read about what the breeder of the sire of this dog had to say about the lines..but we all know it would be foolish to believe everything you read.


Gerry do you really care? Im guessing no. You saying I shouldn’t believe everything I read on here? Do you believe that Sandra was really telling the truth with her “sorry if I sound like a bitch”? That one made me think if I should believe her or not because I think she takes pride in knowing nothing but being a bitch for the attention.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, that's true. But now that Lee has had his fun and forgot all about his guilt, I say we leave it up to the people he respects.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


I know he don’t respect me and I respect him for that. As long as he feels better. I have no respect for anyone that respects me


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> This thread is like therapy for your recent traumatic experience you witnessed, you forgot all about the guilt. Those 30 seconds must have been much worse than what you experienced in Vietnam.


Guilt is one thing but some of these posts are getting stupid and asinine.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, that's true. But now that Lee has had his fun and forgot all about his guilt, I say we leave it up to the people he respects.
> 
> 
> Terrasita



Thank you! What a relief, not.:lol:


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Gerry do you really care? Im guessing no. You saying I shouldn’t believe everything I read on here? Do you believe that Sandra was really telling the truth with her “sorry if I sound like a bitch”? That one made me think if I should believe her or not because I think she takes pride in knowing nothing but being a bitch for the attention.


Oh Chris, Gerry cares, he really cares. He just won't admit why he really cares.:lol:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This is going nowhere!


----------

