# Prey VS Defense



## Howard Gaines III

If prey is the dog's willingness to go after something, how can defense be "fear" based? F.E.A.R- false evidence appearing real...This has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard!!

So the thousands of military men and women are fearful? How can a dog be fearful and fight as well? If defense is fear based, then the animal OR man runs for safety, never shows again, and never offers to fight.

Offense and defense are balances of a survival behavior; being clear thinking allows for the thoughtful motions needed to engage, retreat, or kill.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Showing the world you know better again ?? Tell us the story of your "live bites" again Howard. That is always a favorite of mine.

Then, when you are done, explain the phenomenon "fear forward" I would love to hear your version.

Then, explain to me why drives are not quantitative. I am DYING to hear this.

Then, explain to me what a threshold is. 

How about you don't spend a day trying to get the answers right, and just amuse me with your shop teacher version.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Showing the world you know better again ?? Tell us the story of your "live bites" again Howard. That is always a favorite of mine.
> 
> Then, when you are done, explain the phenomenon "fear forward" I would love to hear your version.
> 
> Then, explain to me why drives are not quantitative. I am DYING to hear this.
> 
> Then, explain to me what a threshold is.
> 
> How about you don't spend a day trying to get the answers right, and just amuse me with your shop teacher version.


 Ah the old DNR button oehlsen...do not repond.

So waiting for that great bio, seminar vids, and pics...

Fear based...you are a hoot oehlsen! And the folks who know better, so why do you live all over the country? ARHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH[-X


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So you don't know the answers then. I didn't think so. How about some video of you working a dog ?? THat would be great. 

So lets go over this "live bite" story again howard. Remember when you first started here and was telling everyone all about your "live bites" and how great your dog is was whatever. 

THEN we come to find out that your dog bit your decoy like the nervebag shitter that we all know it is. 

So to cover up the shitter that your dog is, you decided to try and bullshit us by saying your dog had 3 live bites.

So 3 times your decoy has gotten bitten by your dog because of handler errors.

THis is why you NEVER post any video, just carefully selected photos. 

Remember the big long drunken PM you sent me, saying how you were gonna "get me" ?? What was that, like two years ago ?? Still gonna "get me" howard ??

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Incedently, although it will probably be locked through a complaint of some pussy that is not even part of this thread, but cannot NOT read it, so they can be offended and cry to the mods, THIS thread, is a very good example of how many people adjust their thinking to the dog that they have. I think everyone does it in some manner, but the extreme like howard where he will go into complete denial, and make up his own wild ass guess terminology is a interesting phenomenon.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

44 views. the curs are circling. LOL


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## David Frost

One chance remains on keeping this open to the discussion of: "If prey is the dog's willingness to go after something, how can defense be "fear" based? F.E.A.R- false evidence appearing real..." 

If this is used for anyones personal agenda, it will be closed.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

DFrost


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## Steve Strom

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Showing the world you know better again ?? Tell us the story of your "live bites" again Howard. That is always a favorite of mine.
> 
> Then, when you are done, explain the phenomenon "fear forward" I would love to hear your version.
> 
> Then, explain to me why drives are not quantitative. I am DYING to hear this.
> 
> Then, explain to me what a threshold is.
> 
> How about you don't spend a day trying to get the answers right, and just amuse me with your shop teacher version.


Fear Forward, like a defensive, nervy dog that will still run the blinds even though once he gets there, he's not really sure he wants to be there?


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## Guest

I'm not even sure _what_ to respond to.

It just... doesn't make sense. The individual words I recognize, but the content is almost gibberish.

Servicemen? What? I've heard most people are afraid during combat. Yes.

Animals aren't conscious, and lack agendas such as duty and altruism and shame.

Other than that, Howard lost me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

THere are breeds that when afraid go forward, there are breeds that go away from the source, ie RUN, and there are breeds that have a passive reactions to fear. like a golden retriever should have.

Got to remember there are many breeds out there. We chose the few that go forward when frightened. If they are scared to much, they run as well.

There are many basic basic covenants that howard just doesn't get. I enjoy 'splaining them to him, especially after his PM to me.

I see someone ran to a Mod almost right away. No one likes a rat.


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## Steve Strom

Ahh, ok. I was reading too much into it.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... I see someone ran to a Mod almost right away. No one likes a rat.


Actually, no one did.


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I see someone ran to a Mod almost right away. No one likes a rat.


Actually, that's not at all true. No has reported this discussion, yet. Some of us prefer a more adult atmosphere and don't have to start name calling and the mine is bigger than your routine, every time they disagree with someone. If folks have a personal beef, then take it somewhere else, don't really give a damn where, just not here. Today I'm that person. I'd like to see what other people might think about the question asked. Disagreements have never been moderated on this board. It's the childish behavior that has ruined or locked more discussions than any other reason. There have been a lot of views, meaning some may want to participate but just get tired of the constant bullshit by a few of our members. That won't be the case in this discussion. Either continue it as adults or it's gone, simple as that.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Connie, I don't believe you for a second. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Connie, I don't believe you for a second. LOL


It's true. No has reported this discussion, yet.

There happened to be grown-up mod eyes on the board. See David's post.


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## maggie fraser

Howard, I kind of liked Jim Nash's response on another current thread pertaining to this very thing I think. It's what a dog or person even, if you can forgive the anthromonopolising... is how one responds to that fear ie. overcoming the fear and moving forward on it (courage), or not, and running from it (cowardice).

Perhaps if you were to define your version of defense, and what it means to you, folks might start singing off the same song sheet as yourself.

Anyway, I just thought I'd join in .


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## Jeff Threadgill

OK, I am so confused right now lol. I'm nowhere near your guys expertise. However this is how I had it explained to me. 

Defense, you see most of this in alert, whether it be a home, car or out and about. The dog is saying hey "what the hell you doing? 

Prey, the willingness to Chase,track, trail the suspect/decoy.

Confidence with Fight, the drive that comes in a dark ally when its just a 7ft man with weapon in his hand and the dog. In the dogs mind and harry mangos lmao (different thread) he has no doubt in his mind he will win. When the fight occurs, the dog gets pushed and hit pretty hard, however the fight in this dog will not let him lose... death or win.

Now with that being said I thought I had the understanding. Right or wrong I understood it. Now I'm thinking damn is this right or am I just completely needing to start over with drive definitions.


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## Chris Cromwell

David Frost said:


> Actually, that's not at all true. No has reported this discussion, yet. Some of us prefer a more adult atmosphere and don't have to start name calling and the mine is bigger than your routine, every time they disagree with someone. If folks have a personal beef, then take it somewhere else, don't really give a damn where, just not here. Today I'm that person. I'd like to see what other people might think about the question asked. Disagreements have never been moderated on this board. It's the childish behavior that has ruined or locked more discussions than any other reason. There have been a lot of views, meaning some may want to participate but just get tired of the constant bullshit by a few of our members. That won't be the case in this discussion. Either continue it as adults or it's gone, simple as that.
> 
> DFrost


=D>


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## maggie fraser

Chris Cromwell said:


> =D>


comment was not needed for this discussion


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## Don Turnipseed

OK, let me put some perspective to it because I have asked this same question for years. My dog is on a hog, hog is running because it is wide open country and he preferrs to flee. The dog is said to be on prey. The hog runs up a small box canyone with the dog all over him. At the end of the canyon, there is no p-lace to go so he backs into the brush and takes up a defensive position. The dog is still working all around him aniling him at every opening. The dog could flee anytime as there is nothing to stop him. Every sport person I have ever brought this up with says the dog switched to defence when the hog backed into the brush. Makes no sense at all and never has. To me anyway. The dog is being about as offensive as he can be.


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## Don Turnipseed

[off topic and not needed.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well, what's interesting to me is the idea of pressure as different from defense or the dog's state of mind when you pressure it [prey drive vs. defense drive]. Howard left out a step in the sequence. 1. prey i s running. 2. dog runs after it. 3. prey stops running and faces off dog--i.e. applies pressure. 4. Once the pressure is applied, and the dog is left to respond--what drive can he be in? 5. Once the prey applies pressure, with the dog we either get fight or flight. In order for you to say that it hasn't turned to defense, you would have to read some external body language of the dog I guess. If the dog isn't concerned about himself what is he fighting for? Pure social dominance? If he wins the fight, he gets to eat? Its interesting with the wolves that when faced with a fight, how often you eventually you get flight.

In livestock work, there comes a point when the dog realizes that the stock can and will hurt him. At that point the dog will tell you what he has---fight vs. flight. Livestock work is never all prey. Now, lets say the duck goes on attack [they do and all the time]. Some dogs laugh at this and would never consider it a threat. Others will actually run. Although, they don't consider it a threat, they do respond because if the stock is fighting its not going where the dog tells them to go. [Here is one instance I can think of where its not that the dog feels threatened but he intends to maintain control over the situation--there is a hierarchy]. But that dog on cattle or sheep trying to bash its head in, he may feel threatened. He's gonna respond with fight vs. flight. Even though he responds to fight, it may not have that calmness to it and may take on a frantic feel. Calm/confident fight is methodical and deliberate. There's another version I've seen with the bouv getting a cow out of the corner gripping at the neck and obviously just plain pissed off. So I've seen fight with worry/anxiety [often caused by handler conflict]; calm deliberate/methodical; and plain pissed off and perhaps not the most clear headed. Now in these situations, the dog isn't cornered. He could just leave or flee. He chooses to stay in the game and until he wins.

I can't seem to separate pressure from defense. I think defense is the dog's concern that something may hurt him, other pack members [including the handler] or invade his territory. I know that with that concern there are dogs that I categorize as gonna die fighting, pure flight and sometimes something in between. I think it all comes in degrees and you can gradually build the dogs tolerance and strength in dealing with it if the dog has the mental makeup for the work. 

Perhaps all the madness is over the use of "concern over self, others, territory" in its extremes to produce a "look" of intensity. Dogs read intent. They aren't limited in reading just movement and body position and that's in people and animals.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Threadgill

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, what's interesting to me is the idea of pressure as different from defense or the dog's state of mind when you pressure it [prey drive vs. defense drive]. Howard left out a step in the sequence. 1. prey i s running. 2. dog runs after it. 3. prey stops running and faces off dog--i.e. applies pressure. 4. Once the pressure is applied, and the dog is left to respond--what drive can he be in? 5. Once the prey applies pressure, with the dog we either get fight or flight. In order for you to say that it hasn't turned to defense, you would have to read some external body language of the dog I guess. If the dog isn't concerned about himself what is he fighting for? Pure social dominance? If he wins the fight, he gets to eat? Its interesting with the wolves that when faced with a fight, how often you eventually you get flight.
> 
> In livestock work, there comes a point when the dog realizes that the stock can and will hurt him. At that point the dog will tell you what he has---fight vs. flight. Livestock work is never all prey. Now, lets say the duck goes on attack [they do and all the time]. Some dogs laugh at this and would never consider it a threat. Others will actually run. Although, they don't consider it a threat, they do respond because if the stock is fighting its not going where the dog tells them to go. [Here is one instance I can think of where its not that the dog feels threatened but he intends to maintain control over the situation--there is a hierarchy]. But that dog on cattle or sheep trying to bash its head in, he may feel threatened. He's gonna respond with fight vs. flight. Even though he responds to fight, it may not have that calmness to it and may take on a frantic feel. Calm/confident fight is methodical and deliberate. There's another version I've seen with the bouv getting a cow out of the corner gripping at the neck and obviously just plain pissed off. So I've seen fight with worry/anxiety [often caused by handler conflict]; calm deliberate/methodical; and plain pissed off and perhaps not the most clear headed. Now in these situations, the dog isn't cornered. He could just leave or flee. He chooses to stay in the game and until he wins.
> 
> I can't seem to separate pressure from defense. I think defense is the dog's concern that something may hurt him, other pack members [including the handler] or invade his territory. I know that with that concern there are dogs that I categorize as gonna die fighting, pure flight and sometimes something in between. I think it all comes in degrees and you can gradually build the dogs tolerance and strength in dealing with it if the dog has the mental makeup for the work.
> 
> Perhaps all the madness is over the use of "concern over self, others, territory" in its extremes to produce a "look" of intensity. Dogs read intent. They aren't limited in reading just movement and body position and that's in people and animals.
> 
> Terrasita


I understood that and agree.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, let me put some perspective to it because I have asked this same question for years. My dog is on a hog, hog is running because it is wide open country and he preferrs to flee. The dog is said to be on prey. The hog runs up a small box canyone with the dog all over him. At the end of the canyon, there is no p-lace to go so he backs into the brush and takes up a defensive position. The dog is still working all around him aniling him at every opening. The dog could flee anytime as there is nothing to stop him. Every sport person I have ever brought this up with says the dog switched to defence when the hog backed into the brush. Makes no sense at all and never has. To me anyway. The dog is being about as offensive as he can be.


In my mind the dog would now need to switch into fight drive as the hog has changed the game by not running. There for no longer easy prey but has instead chosen to defend himself. So the dog must go into fight if he wants to capture the aggressive prey...yes?


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## Lynda Myers

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, what's interesting to me is the idea of pressure as different from defense or the dog's state of mind when you pressure it [prey drive vs. defense drive]. Howard left out a step in the sequence. 1. prey i s running. 2. dog runs after it. 3. prey stops running and faces off dog--i.e. applies pressure. 4. Once the pressure is applied, and the dog is left to respond--what drive can he be in? 5. Once the prey applies pressure, with the dog we either get fight or flight. In order for you to say that it hasn't turned to defense, you would have to read some external body language of the dog I guess. If the dog isn't concerned about himself what is he fighting for? Pure social dominance? If he wins the fight, he gets to eat? Its interesting with the wolves that when faced with a fight, how often you eventually you get flight.
> 
> In livestock work, there comes a point when the dog realizes that the stock can and will hurt him. At that point the dog will tell you what he has---fight vs. flight. Livestock work is never all prey. Now, lets say the duck goes on attack [they do and all the time]. Some dogs laugh at this and would never consider it a threat. Others will actually run. Although, they don't consider it a threat, they do respond because if the stock is fighting its not going where the dog tells them to go. [Here is one instance I can think of where its not that the dog feels threatened but he intends to maintain control over the situation--there is a hierarchy]. But that dog on cattle or sheep trying to bash its head in, he may feel threatened. He's gonna respond with fight vs. flight. Even though he responds to fight, it may not have that calmness to it and may take on a frantic feel. Calm/confident fight is methodical and deliberate. There's another version I've seen with the bouv getting a cow out of the corner gripping at the neck and obviously just plain pissed off. So I've seen fight with worry/anxiety [often caused by handler conflict]; calm deliberate/methodical; and plain pissed off and perhaps not the most clear headed. Now in these situations, the dog isn't cornered. He could just leave or flee. He chooses to stay in the game and until he wins.
> 
> I can't seem to separate pressure from defense. I think defense is the dog's concern that something may hurt him, other pack members [including the handler] or invade his territory. I know that with that concern there are dogs that I categorize as gonna die fighting, pure flight and sometimes something in between. I think it all comes in degrees and you can gradually build the dogs tolerance and strength in dealing with it if the dog has the mental makeup for the work.
> 
> Perhaps all the madness is over the use of "concern over self, others, territory" in its extremes to produce a "look" of intensity. Dogs read intent. They aren't limited in reading just movement and body position and that's in people and animals.
> 
> Terrasita


Didn't get this far when I responded to Don. LOL What she said:lol:


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## Ben Colbert

Why wouldn't the dog in Don's example still be in prey? I mean he _is_ pursuing prey right?

A schutzhund dog is in prey during the escape bite and many (most) stay in prey for the reattack and drive with stick hits right? Obviously this is less pressure than a hog puts out (an understatement I know) but a schutzhund sleeve is also a less exciting prey object than a real running, squealing, bleeding pig.

Do dogs really switch drives like a light switch?


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## Kerry Foose

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, let me put some perspective to it because I have asked this same question for years. My dog is on a hog, hog is running because it is wide open country and he preferrs to flee. The dog is said to be on prey. The hog runs up a small box canyone with the dog all over him. At the end of the canyon, there is no p-lace to go so he backs into the brush and takes up a defensive position. The dog is still working all around him aniling him at every opening. The dog could flee anytime as there is nothing to stop him. Every sport person I have ever brought this up with says the dog switched to defence when the hog backed into the brush. Makes no sense at all and never has. To me anyway. The dog is being about as offensive as he can be.


This makes perfect sense to me and is somewhat what I was trying to convey in my comments in a recent thread.
The dog is looking at the ass-end of an animal while it is fleeing it is in prey drive - kill drive because the animal is in a vulnerable state with its back to your dogs teeth. The animal turns and faces the dog - the dogs strategy changes with two eyes (and teeth) now on it...defensive mode kicks in. (Protect myself and whats mine.) Every breed of dog has its own set on inherent genetic traits to support this theory, as pointed out earlier in this very thread. IE: golden retriever over a GSD, a different reaction between the breeds can absolutely be realized right?


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## maggie fraser

Ben Colbert said:


> *Why wouldn't the dog in Don's example still be in prey?* I mean he _is_ pursuing prey right?
> 
> A schutzhund dog is in prey during the escape bite and many (most) stay in prey for the reattack and drive with stick hits right? Obviously this is less pressure than a hog puts out (an understatement I know) but a schutzhund sleeve is also a less exciting prey object than a real running, squealing, bleeding pig.
> 
> Do dogs really switch drives like a light switch?


The dog is no longer running down and angling the prey as already stated, plus the dog also knows there is danger/fear of life coming into play perhaps ?


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## Don Turnipseed

OK, the hog is no longer running, but, the dogs are still after him in every sense of the word. They intend do get him also. It is still preydator vs prey if you get my drift. LOL The hog was the prey to start with and he is still the prey. The dogs are not giving in but they do have to be smarter. The pig is in a defensive mode because he has no choice. Is the opinopn that prey mode ends when the catch is made and the prey has to fight for his life. I say they are still in prey because the fight is the reason they do this. Also, I don't buy a fight drive. Searching my memory banks at the moment but as I recall there are three basic drives all having to do with survival. Prey for eating, sex drive for procreation, and....and....what is the third??? Flight for survival???


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## maggie fraser

Does prey equal fight ? I don't know. But if a predator runs down prey and that prey is formidable enough to threaten the life of the predator (haven't read this from a book by the way), then there is a different aspect which comes into play. Don, is it only one dog on one hog in this particular scenario, I think it makes a difference... ever seen a lion go on a wart hog, they don't always finish it...sometimes don't even start it by time they get to it ?

I might be talking nonsense, it's late here at my end.


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## Lynda Myers

Ben Colbert said:


> Why wouldn't the dog in Don's example still be in prey? I mean he _is_ pursuing prey right?
> 
> A schutzhund dog is in prey during the escape bite and many (most) stay in prey for the reattack and drive with stick hits right? Obviously this is less pressure than a hog puts out (an understatement I know) but a schutzhund sleeve is also a less exciting prey object than a real running, squealing, bleeding pig.
> 
> Do dogs really switch drives like a light switch?


Yes watch any good helper and you will see him switch the dog in and out of drives. 
The hog turning to defend itself would be more liken to the courage test in schutzhund. Before the prey was running AWAY. Prey always moves away when it faces off it's pursuer it's no longer prey in the true sense of the word at least in my mind.


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## Ben Colbert

You really think that the courage test is a test of defense?


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, the hog is no longer running, but, the dogs are still after him in every sense of the word. They intend do get him also. It is still preydator vs prey if you get my drift. LOL The hog was the prey to start with and he is still the prey. The dogs are not giving in but they do have to be smarter. The pig is in a defensive mode because he has no choice. Is the opinopn that prey mode ends when the catch is made and the prey has to fight for his life. I say they are still in prey because the fight is the reason they do this. Also, I don't buy a fight drive. Searching my memory banks at the moment but as I recall there are three basic drives all having to do with survival. Prey for eating, sex drive for procreation, and....and....what is the third??? Flight for survival???


I don't like using any drive theories anymore either because once again so many people have a different views of them . I've seen folks argueing over the internet when they are actually agreeing but their terminology is so screwed up neither realizes it . I would say it depends on the dog when they start going from prey into defense . Like your comparison of the 2 dogs you worked . 

Having seen many real PSD apprehensions involving bites(fights) at the conclusion and I've seen a wide variation of things . Usually the chase is straight up prey but once the badguy goes to ground and the dog starts searching , eyes and nose , things change and it now becomes dependant on the individual dog . Some stay in prey up until well into the battle others start feeling a little stress during the search but their desire to find and fight the guy overruns any stress they might be feeling and they continue to actively and still with alot of confidence search out the suspect . From the point the dog makes contact it can be even more veried on the comfort level of the dog and when and how fast this changes . 

It's hard for me to describe in writting but much easier to point out the behaviors indicating what state the dog might be in when actually seeing a dog work .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is a conditioned response.

Nice of you all to run off to Don's question, you crack me up. How do you all ever even survive is beyond me. Go into avoidance at first crack. LOL

To many retards think that defense is the most scared a dog could ever be when we say it is fear based.

Look at the responses, and see how it crushes their id when a statement like this is true. What does that tell you about that person ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

QUote: Actually, no one did.

What is the deal with you e-mailing people about me ?? 

I still don't believe you. Not going to believe you, no need to respond other wise.


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is a conditioned response.
> 
> Nice of you all to run off to Don's question, you crack me up. How do you all ever even survive is beyond me. Go into avoidance at first crack. LOL
> 
> To many retards think that defense is the most scared a dog could ever be when we say it is fear based.
> 
> Look at the responses, and see how it crushes their id when a statement like this is true. What does that tell you about that person ?



I must be in avoidance bad . What did I miss ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Did you start from the beginning ?? LOL


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## Tracey Hughes

I always thought defense had to do with a dogs self preservation? 

Depending on the dog’s nerve, given the choice it will either fight or turn tail and run when put into a situation in where it feels threatened.

I just want my dog to bite hard and with confidence while still being under control, nothing else is a concern at the end of the day 

I don’t remember any German trainers talking prey or defense when I started in the sport in 94. A dog either bit well or it didn’t..


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Did you start from the beginning ?? LOL


**** no ! I ain't doing that again .


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## tracey schneider

I agree with you don, its prey unless the dog is sticking it out as he doesn't want to turn its back on the hog to risk attack then you would have to know the body language. I agree with jim it depends on the dog how it is perceived. In the hog situation, the dog is schooled and I think you use them as bay dogs so probably more than one dog...rey
Prey. If the dog was backed into a corner with a hog going for probably defense. I don't think something has to be moving to be prey. Movement might be was started it but I believe prey drive continues...
I'm on my phone so hopefully rhis makes sense...
As always jmo,

T


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## Lynda Myers

Ben Colbert said:


> You really think that the courage test is a test of defense?


In the escape bite, the helper is moving away from the pursuing dog...prey. But in the courage test the helper at some point turns and faces the dog yelling, screaming and threatening with a stick...defense. Defense position is a full frontal body posture, loud noise with stick raised ready for a strike. That when done right puts quite a bit of stress/pressure on a dog. I ask you is this the way we understand prey to act? 
At the beginning of the courage test the helper comes out of blind 6 runs across the dogs line of vision...prey. Again moving away from the dog and upon reaching the center of the field turns and runs up field at the dog. The prey has now become the aggressor. The dog must go out 30 foot maybe (don't know exact footage) away from handler and engage the helper.


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## tracey schneider

I agree with you don, its prey unless the dog is sticking it out as he doesn't want to turn its back on the hog to risk attack then you would have to know the body language. I agree with jim it depends on the dog how it is perceived. In the hog situation, the dog is schooled and I think you use them as bay dogs so probably more than one dog...rey
Prey. If the dog was backed into a corner with a hog going for probably defense. I don't think something has to be moving to be prey. Movement might be was started it but I believe prey drive continues...
I also don't think you can truly compare animal on animal vs man...man is much more unnatural for the dog. I also agree with you don on 3 basic drives with susets from there. I don't think you can have fight without prey or defense first.

I'm on my phone so hopefully rhis makes sense...
As always jmo,

T


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## tracey schneider

Wow that was a mess lol

Lynda I think it goes back to the dog. Even if the man is acting defensively... And less be honest that seems to be fewer and farther between...
If the dog hasn't switched gears and doesn't view it as "defense" then I don't consider the dog in defense. Goes back to.. What is the hot word around here... Thresholds!

Jmo
T


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## Ben Colbert

Lynda Myers said:


> In the escape bite, the helper is moving away from the pursuing dog...prey. But in the courage test the helper at some point turns and faces the dog yelling, screaming and threatening with a stick...defense. Defense position is a full frontal body posture, loud noise with stick raised ready for a strike.


See this is where I disagree.

I know I'm not an expert but in the time I've been doing dog sport I have picked up a few things. I see forward movement, open posture, eye contact, loud noise etc as being pressure. And this pressure may illicit a defensive reaction in a dog. But...

A dog worked slowly through this pressure while in prey may never go in to defense and may never see these behaviors, even from a new helper as threat but instead just "that funny stuff the guy holding my prey object does".


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, the hog is no longer running, but, the dogs are still after him in every sense of the word. They intend do get him also. It is still preydator vs prey if you get my drift. LOL The hog was the prey to start with and he is still the prey. The dogs are not giving in but they do have to be smarter. The pig is in a defensive mode because he has no choice. Is the opinopn that prey mode ends when the catch is made and the prey has to fight for his life. I say they are still in prey because the fight is the reason they do this. Also, I don't buy a fight drive. Searching my memory banks at the moment but as I recall there are three basic drives all having to do with survival. Prey for eating, sex drive for procreation, and....and....what is the third??? Flight for survival???


Good timing. I was just talking about this with someone else.

So, when a dog is confronted with a defensive/tired out piggy for the first time, do you sometimes see them bark in frustration to get the hog running again? I.e. they aren't entirely sure they want to go head on with it yet; and would just prefer the old game (for which they are already amped up)?


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## Don Turnipseed

Steven Lepic said:


> Good timing. I was just talking about this with someone else.
> 
> So, when a dog is confronted with a defensive/tired out piggy for the first time, do you sometimes see them bark in frustration to get the hog running again? I.e. they aren't entirely sure they want to go head on with it yet; and would just prefer the old game (for which they are already amped up)?


They don't bark to get the pig going again Stephen. They are hunting partners and bark to let me know where they are at. They have learned that I am the shooter but when they hear me approaching they loose all restraint and grab the hog at the first chance. Even when the hog has to take up a defensive position in the brush, the dog(s) are in total charge. The hog would be in charge if the dogs were stupid enough to go into the brush with him......then he could put the dogs into defense. The hog picked that brush because he can control the situation from there and keep the dogs pretty much in front of him. The dogs are all head dogs and I would give anything to get a couple that healed the back end.....but to do that I may loose the headbangers.


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## Christopher Smith

Lynda Myers said:


> In my mind the dog would now need to switch into fight drive...


Where are these switches located? 

Some of you guys seem to believe that drives are these stand alone micro programs in the dogs head and he can only run one program at a time.


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## Christopher Smith

Ben Colbert said:


> Do dogs really switch drives like a light switch?


 One day I'm out with my friends expressing my "pack drive" at the local bar. While at the bar some cute girls come in and I go into "sex drive". Some other guys come up and start some shit and I go into "defense drive" and me and my boys hand out some beatings. 

In the end I'm in three drives at once. I'm hanging with my pack, defending myself and all the while I'm trying to get laid. I think our dogs are the same way and drives are not stand alone. For instance when a dog wants' to breed a bitch he is not just in sex drive. He also has to use a little defense in case the bitch fails to see his charms. When a dog is chasing cat he might be mostly in prey but he also has to use defense and aggression to kill the cat. 

IMO, drives are like a lava lamp with all of the various drives bubbling up and down and comingling. They are not rigid programs that the dog must "switch" on and off.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: A dog worked slowly through this pressure while in prey may never go in to defense and may never see these behaviors, even from a new helper as threat but instead just "that funny stuff the guy holding my prey object does".

So there is where you start to love the term "threshold".


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, let me put some perspective to it because I have asked this same question for years. My dog is on a hog, hog is running because it is wide open country and he preferrs to flee. The dog is said to be on prey. The hog runs up a small box canyone with the dog all over him. At the end of the canyon, there is no p-lace to go so he backs into the brush and takes up a defensive position. The dog is still working all around him aniling him at every opening. The dog could flee anytime as there is nothing to stop him. Every sport person I have ever brought this up with says the dog switched to defence when the hog backed into the brush. Makes no sense at all and never has. To me anyway. The dog is being about as offensive as he can be.


Hey Don.

I haven't read the posts past this one yet, so here is my take on that.
NOT defense. PREY / FIGHT.

You're dog are bred for large game prey drive. The experience increases the fight aspect.

I don't know much about hunting with dogs. But like I said to you a long long time ago, it is very different when talking dogs on animals or dogs on a man, with MOST dogs. 

The comparison that I would put forth in this context is if the dog was younger and maybe no so experienced, or not a super hunter, and the hog got HIM in a corner. The dog might stop and realize he is danger, this doesn't mean he will run necessarily but it could mean he MIGHT if he was not successful in his attempts to battle the hog, he would cur out. If he fights back and is successful it builds him up for the next time.


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## Christopher Smith

I have a question. I see some people dislike training a dog using any defense because fear is a component of defense. If you don't show the dog some fear during the training, and teach him to react appropriately to that fear, how does the dog know what to do when he gets afraid during a trial?


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## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: A dog worked slowly through this pressure while in prey may never go in to defense and may never see these behaviors, even from a new helper as threat but instead just "that funny stuff the guy holding my prey object does".


I'm an atheist and don't share your faith in in high thresholds. One day the blinders will fall off and......


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## Jim Nash

Christopher Smith said:


> One day I'm out with my friends expressing my "pack drive" at the local bar. While at the bar some cute girls come in and I go into "sex drive". Some other guys come up and start some shit and I go into "defense drive" and me and my boys hand out some beatings.
> 
> In the end I'm in three drives at once. I'm hanging with my pack, defending myself and all the while I'm trying to get laid. I think our dogs are the same way and drives are not stand alone. For instance when a dog wants' to breed a bitch he is not just in sex drive. He also has to use a little defense in case the bitch fails to see his charms. When a dog is chasing cat he might be mostly in prey but he also has to use defense and aggression to kill the cat.
> 
> IMO, drives are like a lava lamp with all of the various drives bubbling up and down and comingling. They are not rigid programs that the dog must "switch" on and off.


I agree there's more to it then a dog either being totally in prey or totally in defense . 

Don't agree with the analogy though . I went to the bar many times tryin to get some . I liked to fight too but didn't go looking for it because I'd rather get lucky . If I did get into a fight I sure wasn't thinking about getting laid at the time , I was too concerned about winning the fight and note getting my butt kicked . On a similar note though , I sure did enjoy(prey) fighting even if there was a concern(defense) I might get my butt handed to me .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Chris, that is not my quote.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I sure did enjoy(prey) fighting even if there was a concern(defense) I might get my butt handed to me . [/quote]

I think this is Khira-bouv in a nutshell.


Terrasita


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## Christopher Smith

Jim Nash said:


> Don't agree with the analogy though . I went to the bar many times tryin to get some . I liked to fight too but didn't go looking for it because I'd rather get lucky . If I did get into a fight I sure wasn't thinking about getting laid at the time , I was too concerned about winning the fight and note getting my butt kicked . On a similar note though , I sure did enjoy(prey) fighting even if there was a concern(defense) I might get my butt handed to me .


A sexually attractive, ass kicking, multitasker, such as myself, never need worry about such things. \\/


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## Jim Nash

Christopher Smith said:


> A sexually attractive, ass kicking, multitasker, such as myself, never need worry about such things. \\/


Got me there . Law of the jungle .


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## Christopher Smith

Jim Nash said:


> , I was too concerned about winning the fight and note getting my butt kicked . On a similar note though , I sure did enjoy(prey) fighting even if there was a concern(defense) I might get my butt handed to me .


I think there is something too this. My friend and I it "thrill drive". I think there are some dogs that simply get a rush out of scaring themselves.


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> They don't bark to get the pig going again Stephen. They are hunting partners and bark to let me know where they are at. They have learned that I am the shooter but when they hear me approaching they loose all restraint and grab the hog at the first chance. Even when the hog has to take up a defensive position in the brush, the dog(s) are in total charge. The hog would be in charge if the dogs were stupid enough to go into the brush with him......then he could put the dogs into defense. The hog picked that brush because he can control the situation from there and keep the dogs pretty much in front of him. The dogs are all head dogs and I would give anything to get a couple that healed the back end.....but to do that I may loose the headbangers.


The dogs you've intended to breed notwithstanding, do you recognize the principle behind my question?


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## Joby Becker

Howard Gaines III said:


> If prey is the dog's willingness to go after something, how can defense be "fear" based? F.E.A.R- false evidence appearing real...This has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard!!
> 
> So the thousands of military men and women are fearful? How can a dog be fearful and fight as well? If defense is fear based, then the animal OR man runs for safety, never shows again, and never offers to fight.


Great topic Howard.

My .02 again.
Defense in my mind is not fear based. IT CAN BE, but not always.
It occurs when a dog perceives a threat, usually to itself, or it's handler, but can be other things like a slipped sleeve that is approached by a decoy.
Defense to me is the dog realizing he actually may have to protect any of these things, he realizes there is a threat, this does NOT mean to me that he is fearful of the threat, you do the work to elicit a strong aggressive response to the threat, not put so much stress as to where the dog feels he HAS to fight or run for his life, but that he realizes there is a threat and he knows he can respond to drive away the threat and/or overcome it. 

Sort of like if a guy is screaming at you and approaches you, you realize that the guy is a threat, but it doesn't me you are scared of that guy. But if something does go down you are not going to be playing pattycakes with the guy.

Everyone has there own opinion on what defense training is and if it is good or not, my opinion is defense drive should be worked on...If a dog has super prey and great nerves, worked all the time, he can still surprise you if he somehow actually gets put into defense by a helper or a real bad guy, if he actually gets put into defense, he may not be able to cope with the stress, or realize what his response should be. I think defense work is essential in small doses to create a complete overall strong fighting "package" in a dog.

To avoid a long drawn out argument, I copied a couple of paragraphs that I agree with from a couple different people that took the time to put it into words.

Gary Patterson
Defense and Dog Training

Among all of the defense strategies we have examined, only a few are experienced in dog training. Flight, displays, freezing and aggression are experienced in week to week training sessions with different dogs and, in fact, it is all these characteristics that must be identified and worked on to produce a top working dog. If a dog attempts to flee, display instead of attack or simply becomes passive during training, the protection trainer must work to eliminate these responses. If the dog shows aggression, the character of the aggressive responses may be improper with the dog either out of control in its defense drive or displaying the wrong kind of aggression. Aggression is not a simple process of the dog willing to attack an adversary, but can take two entirely different forms.

Let's examine two different situations in which a dog might find itself where aggression is the result. In the first, a dog is trained to patrol a farm and stop any intruder from coming onto the property. It freely patrols the farm until it finds a bear entering the farm to invade the farmer's bee hives. The dog will first display through barking and making its body apparently larger (raised hackles, stiff front legs, ears extended forward, deep barking and quick, but aggressive, advancement against the bear.) If the displays don't work against the bear so it continues to advance, the dog must then make a decision to shift to another form of defense behavior, either flight or aggression. *The important point is that this is a voluntary act by the dog; it either runs or fights*. Either behavior is a legitimate defense, so the dog wins no matter which way it reacts.

Using the same example, we will now chain the dog to a post next to the bee hives so it cannot escape. Here, when the bear advances, the dog has no alternative but to fight for its life. Thus, instead of willingly engaging in a fight, it takes on an entirely different body posture as the bear approaches. Its ears may go back, barking will be high pitched and shrill, its tail may tuck under the belly and its lips will pull back to show its teeth. In other words, the dog is experiencing stress at the highest level, a total fear reaction. In the first example, the dog is showing true defense, a response where the dog voluntarily attacks and is rewarded. In the second example, self defense, the animal has no choice but to try to save itself and will inflict injury in any way to avoid the threat. Self defense always results in fear and stress with the dog never being the winner. It is this type of dog that, if it should show this kind of behavior in training, we often describe as sharp or sharp/shy. While it is difficult to say with certainty, sharpness comes most commonly from the basic temperament of the dog, but I have seen cases where it seemed that poor training or imprinting was the cause. In either case, it should be understood that the overly sharp dog is never a qualified candidate for any protection work as it exaggerates any experience to the point where anything can become a threat. It may bite a protection sleeve harder than any novice dog should only to pop off or it may as easily bite the helper's face, club members or family friends.

*It must be understood from the outset that all defense is stressful, in the sense that defense only arises from a perceived threat, real or otherwise. If we train a dog in the same way each training session, the defense drive will slowly wane and then die, as the dog sees only a patterned, predictable environment to which it must respond with no real threat to its existence. When trainers and breeders talk about nerve in a dog, it is really the dog's ability to cope with and conquer this stress that distinguishes the outstanding temperament from the rest. Therefore, good protection training must involve new experiences for the dog if it is to maintain a strong defense drive.*

It has been my unfortunate experience the past several years, when giving seminars, to have someone say in the beginning, "I understand that you are a defense trainer and my dog really needs defense work". I am always dumfounded since any person who would only work prey or defense has a very poor understanding of what the working dog sports require. Defense is important for only one reason: the trial rules test defense behavior. If the trainer fails to prepare a dog for these tests, he is guilty of incomplete training. Instead, we should look at defense behavior as something that needs developing, just as much as prey or social behavior. It is the dog that is well balanced in all of these drives that performs well....

continued.


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## Joby Becker

continuation:
Putting Defense to Work in Training
...
The first is that a dog will willingly continue to work in a way that has brought success in past training. Therefore, if we start training a dog with only bites on the training field, it will soon identify protection training with bite work and the helper will only be the source of this bite training, not a threat by himself. Soon, protection training becomes a series of bite exercises where the dog is only working for the bite.

The second point is that all *bite* training is essentially prey work. *What precedes or follows the bite may bring the defense drive into play, but bite work is founded in prey.*

A sport trainer might say,"Okay, what is wrong with that. I want a dog only to bite in trial and if it does fine, why do I have to become involved in any defense training?" My response can be only the same as I mentioned earlier. If the rules require defense to be tested and the trainer fails to develop defense properly, then he is guilty of incomplete training.

This seems to leave us with the only alternative of not doing any work on the dog until it fully matures, not something that most trainers would tolerate. The problem with waiting until the dog matures can also be that we, as trainers, might have something important to teach the dog when it is still young, a period of intense learning for any dog. In other words, we may show the dog some of the basics of future protection work, by training in the beginning.

*If this still seems impossible, it may be that the trainer believes defense can only come about with direct confrontation between helper and dog. It is true that the temperament of any young dog is too undeveloped for full scale pressure to be applied in training, but there is an alternative where the dog learns to initiate aggressive acts by itself.* Remember the earlier example of the bear and the bee hives, where any dog is capable of showing two kinds of defensive aggression. *The helper who applies pressure on the young or inexperienced dog, without thought to the problems of what form of defense behavior the dog may show, may end up with a dog that shows only self defense, a reaction full of stress. But, if we can use a method where the dog thinks in terms of only true defense, then its acts are voluntary. Through skilled helper work, the dog voluntarily becomes aggressive, and doesn't consider the legitimate alternative of avoidance.
*
When training any beginning dog, especially young ones, I simply have the handler stand with the dog on the training field while a more advanced dog is working. There is no helper agitation, nor does the handler do anything to encourage the dog. For a time the dog will do little or nothing and then, one day, some noticeable change takes place. Instead of doing nothing, the dog starts to pay attention and even barks. Over time this behavior strengthens to the point where the dog is pulling on the lead and willing to chase a decoy who threatens it at some distance away. What have we taught during this period before a dog even gets its first bite? First, it learns to start the action, not respond to some helper trying to get it to come out through pressure. Secondly, its actions become very similar to true defense reactions, where it postures and is willing to become aggressive against the helper. Thirdly, it sees the helper as a threat and not the source of a bite. It is only after the dog is strongly willing to be aggressive against the helper by chasing him away that we start formal bite training. There are two additional benefits from this work. The dog is doing the work voluntarily; no one is making it bark or become aggressive. Thus the stress that we worry about in young dogs is minimized in this beginning work, yet we are teaching some valuable lessons. The other benefit is that the dog will tell you when it is ready to advance to more demanding training. Since the work is voluntary, its temperament and maturity will clearly show the handler when it is time to move on; there is no guess work. Even though all of this is true, the trainer must be patient and let the dog's maturity dictate when it should move on to bite training. In some cases, handlers have waited through this phase with the dog giving little or no reaction until one day when the dog seemed to have put on a different temperament. The fact that a dog is slow during this early training means nothing and several slow beginners I have trained later became "V" winners in protection.

At some distance from the dog is a point where the dog will become aware of the threat of the helper and raise a warning. Beyond this point, the dog perceives no threat and will not react. This point is on the circle that forms the alert zone and its distance varies from dog to dog depending on maturity and temperament....The dog should bark, confront the helper head on and even show strong body posture. If the helper would move toward the dog, in a straight line, from the alert zone, we would see the dog continue to show aggressive like displays until some point where things start to change. *The dog might stop barking, stop staring at the helper or even back up. This point, called the critical zone, is where the dog is considering shifting to another type of defense behavior, usually avoidance in the form of backing. We must remember that, to the dog, aggression and flight are legitimate defense responses, with either resulting in success for the dog. *Unfortunately, avoidance is not an acceptable alternative for the dog trainer so we must find some way of teaching the dog that aggression is the only acceptable response. *But, the trainer who understands defense behavior and the importance of both the alert and critical zones is able to capitalize on what he sees. In the first instance, he recognizes that the initial responses of the dog to the helper on the edge of the alert zone are only bluffing or displays that must change as the threat becomes greater. By carefully reading the dog, the incoming helper can read these changes and adjust his work to keep the dog strong and aggressive. Strangely enough this will involve bringing in prey work...
*

Another good little article on defense training can be found here:
http://www.workingdogs.com/deleissegues_rott.htm


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So you posted all that drivel, once again not reading what has been written. Defense is a fear based response. What part of that confuses you ?? Who taught you that defense is not always fear ?? Who taught you to read a dog ? 

It confuses me when the obvious is unseen by "trainers". I would go and kick the crap out of who ever taught you. They didn't do it right for sure.


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## Joby Becker

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So you posted all that drivel, once again not reading what has been written. Defense is a fear based response. What part of that confuses you ?? Who taught you that defense is not always fear ?? Who taught you to read a dog ?
> 
> It confuses me when the obvious is unseen by "trainers". I would go and kick the crap out of who ever taught you. They didn't do it right for sure.


Jeff, I did post to argue with you, I gave me opinion, which I already know you do not agree with.
I only read the thread up until Don's first post...

I kind of saw where Howard was trying to go and gave my opinion. I did not read ANY of your posts..

I suppose we have a different opinion on what constitutes real fear, or how it is defined. I would say conscious "concern" does not always equal FEAR. 

Anyhow thought it was a good chance to explain what I think of when I think of defense training, as opposed to what some other people might think, like tying a dog up and whipping it, flanking it, or otherwise putting it into real FEAR mode, stressing it too much..yadda yadda yadda...which was asked for by my other good friend on here Maggie..
:roll:


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, let me put some perspective to it because I have asked this same question for years. My dog is on a hog, hog is running because it is wide open country and he preferrs to flee. The dog is said to be on prey. The hog runs up a small box canyone with the dog all over him. At the end of the canyon, there is no p-lace to go so he backs into the brush and takes up a defensive position. The dog is still working all around him aniling him at every opening. The dog could flee anytime as there is nothing to stop him. Every sport person I have ever brought this up with says the dog switched to defence when the hog backed into the brush. Makes no sense at all and never has. To me anyway. The dog is being about as offensive as he can be.


 A hog dog that battles a hog in defense is a cur IMHO(I've seen it wiht my own 2 eyes, not a pretty sight).....they should be in all fight drive/offense


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## Tim Martens

Lynda Myers said:


> *In the escape bite, the helper is moving away from the pursuing dog...prey. But in the courage test the helper at some point turns and faces the dog yelling, screaming and threatening with a stick...defense.* Defense position is a full frontal body posture, loud noise with stick raised ready for a strike. That when done right puts quite a bit of stress/pressure on a dog. I ask you is this the way we understand prey to act?
> At the beginning of the courage test the helper comes out of blind 6 runs across the dogs line of vision...prey. Again moving away from the dog and upon reaching the center of the field turns and runs up field at the dog. The prey has now become the aggressor. The dog must go out 30 foot maybe (don't know exact footage) away from handler and engage the helper.


the first step is realizing that it is neither a "courage test" nor putting the dog in "defense" in a trial...


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## Jim Nash

Joby Becker said:


> Great topic Howard.
> 
> My .02 again.
> Defense in my mind is not fear based. IT CAN BE, but not always.
> It occurs when a dog perceives a threat, usually to itself, or it's handler, but can be other things like a slipped sleeve that is approached by a decoy.
> Defense to me is the dog realizing he is defending any of these things, he realizes there is a threat, this does NOT mean to me that he is fearful of the threat, you do the work to elicit a strong aggressive response to the threat, not put so much stress as to where the dog feels he HAS to fight or run for his life, but that he realizes there is a threat and he knows he can respond to drive away the threat and overcome it.
> 
> Sort of like if a guy is screaming at you and approaches you, you realize that the guy is a threat, but it doesn't me you are scared of that guy. But if something does go down you are not going to be playing pattycakes with the guy.
> 
> Everyone has there own opinion on what defense training is and if it is good or not, my opinion is defense drive should be worked on...If a dog has super prey and great nerves, worked all the time, he can still surprise you if he somehow actually gets put into defense by a helper or a real bad guy, if he actually gets put into defense, he may not be able to cope with the stress, or realize what his response should be. I think defense work is essential in small doses to create a complete overall strong fighting "package" in a dog.
> 
> To avoid a long drawn out argument, I copied a couple of paragraphs that I agree with from a couple different people that took the time to put it into words.
> 
> Gary Patterson
> Defense and Dog Training
> 
> Among all of the defense strategies we have examined, only a few are experienced in dog training. Flight, displays, freezing and aggression are experienced in week to week training sessions with different dogs and, in fact, it is all these characteristics that must be identified and worked on to produce a top working dog. If a dog attempts to flee, display instead of attack or simply becomes passive during training, the protection trainer must work to eliminate these responses. If the dog shows aggression, the character of the aggressive responses may be improper with the dog either out of control in its defense drive or displaying the wrong kind of aggression. Aggression is not a simple process of the dog willing to attack an adversary, but can take two entirely different forms.
> 
> Let's examine two different situations in which a dog might find itself where aggression is the result. In the first, a dog is trained to patrol a farm and stop any intruder from coming onto the property. It freely patrols the farm until it finds a bear entering the farm to invade the farmer's bee hives. The dog will first display through barking and making its body apparently larger (raised hackles, stiff front legs, ears extended forward, deep barking and quick, but aggressive, advancement against the bear.) If the displays don't work against the bear so it continues to advance, the dog must then make a decision to shift to another form of defense behavior, either flight or aggression. *The important point is that this is a voluntary act by the dog; it either runs or fights*. Either behavior is a legitimate defense, so the dog wins no matter which way it reacts.
> 
> Using the same example, we will now chain the dog to a post next to the bee hives so it cannot escape. Here, when the bear advances, the dog has no alternative but to fight for its life. Thus, instead of willingly engaging in a fight, it takes on an entirely different body posture as the bear approaches. Its ears may go back, barking will be high pitched and shrill, its tail may tuck under the belly and its lips will pull back to show its teeth. In other words, the dog is experiencing stress at the highest level, a total fear reaction. In the first example, the dog is showing true defense, a response where the dog voluntarily attacks and is rewarded. In the second example, self defense, the animal has no choice but to try to save itself and will inflict injury in any way to avoid the threat. Self defense always results in fear and stress with the dog never being the winner. It is this type of dog that, if it should show this kind of behavior in training, we often describe as sharp or sharp/shy. While it is difficult to say with certainty, sharpness comes most commonly from the basic temperament of the dog, but I have seen cases where it seemed that poor training or imprinting was the cause. In either case, it should be understood that the overly sharp dog is never a qualified candidate for any protection work as it exaggerates any experience to the point where anything can become a threat. It may bite a protection sleeve harder than any novice dog should only to pop off or it may as easily bite the helper's face, club members or family friends.
> 
> *It must be understood from the outset that all defense is stressful, in the sense that defense only arises from a perceived threat, real or otherwise. If we train a dog in the same way each training session, the defense drive will slowly wane and then die, as the dog sees only a patterned, predictable environment to which it must respond with no real threat to its existence. When trainers and breeders talk about nerve in a dog, it is really the dog's ability to cope with and conquer this stress that distinguishes the outstanding temperament from the rest. Therefore, good protection training must involve new experiences for the dog if it is to maintain a strong defense drive.*
> 
> It has been my unfortunate experience the past several years, when giving seminars, to have someone say in the beginning, "I understand that you are a defense trainer and my dog really needs defense work". I am always dumfounded since any person who would only work prey or defense has a very poor understanding of what the working dog sports require. Defense is important for only one reason: the trial rules test defense behavior. If the trainer fails to prepare a dog for these tests, he is guilty of incomplete training. Instead, we should look at defense behavior as something that needs developing, just as much as prey or social behavior. It is the dog that is well balanced in all of these drives that performs well....
> 
> continued.


Joby where you lose me is when you point out that the dog perceives a threat or is defending itself or something but yet not even having the smallest degree of fear . If you fear nothing how can anything make you feel threatened . 

I think many here feel the word fear as being a totally bad thing . Not neccessarily it can help in survival , effecting how something might fight if one chooses to do so or when to retreat if neccessary . 

A good dog IMO has courage and can work through degrees of fear and how it does that is usually different (sometimes slightly , sometimes greatly ) from dog to dog . A good dog IMO can have a degree of fear and still desire to fight a badguy . It only becomes bad in manwork when the fear escalates to a point where the dog can't do the job it is expected to do .


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## Don Turnipseed

I see fear as part of a survival instinct. It tells a dog when to run if he wants to live. Some dogs will fight out of fear when they have no place to run but if the could they would. We have altered many dogs survival instinct through breeding. They don't run because they will still be fed. In my case, it isn't natural for 1 or 2 dogs to fight the game they do, they live to do it and they don't always come out on top, but they will do it again as soon as their injuries are healed.. In sport work, why don't they run....are they on a leash or have they possibly figured out that they always win. Have they really worked through their fear or have they just learned there is nothing to fear so they stay in prey?


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## Lynda Myers

Tim Martens said:


> the first step is realizing that it is neither a "courage test" nor putting the dog in "defense" in a trial...


True...ah but that's why schutzhund no longer produces strong capable dogs because it's been watered down to allow weak nerved shadow dogs to get through. Sadly once upon a time this was not the case.


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## Joby Becker

Jim Nash said:


> Joby where you lose me is when you point out that the dog perceives a threat or is defending itself or something but yet not even having the smallest degree of fear . If you fear nothing how can anything make you feel threatened .
> 
> I think many here feel the word fear as being a totally bad thing . Not neccessarily it can help in survival , effecting how something might fight if one chooses to do so or when to retreat if neccessary .
> 
> A good dog IMO has courage and can work through degrees of fear and how it does that is usually different (sometimes slightly , sometimes greatly ) from dog to dog . A good dog IMO can have a degree of fear and still desire to fight a badguy . It only becomes bad in manwork when the fear escalates to a point where the dog can't do the job it is expected to do .


Jim I did not read many of the posts..just jumped in. I agree with you, actually by defintion. I appreciate your approach to the subject...

I have been around the block many times trying to discuss this and many people think defense work is making a dog SCARED, this is evident in past threads and other boards. And many people that do bite training are against defense training, which baffles me, because without defense training, I see major holes in training. Like I said in another post, it adds A LOT more than just a scary face, if done correctly.

I do not see it as always making a dog scared to a degree where I would personally label it as real fear...but do agree it could be called fear, if concern and mild stress can be called fear ...which they can by definition. I just kind of see it like Howard was attempting to describe it as...

An example..to try to explain...my way of seeing it, aside from the direct assault/threat on the dog...

A young dog that has a fair amount of bitework..
The dog is not mature or confident enough to take on an actual threatening approach by the helper...can be backed up very easily if overtly challenged, or stressed too much..does not have developed fighting "package", or whatever....

The helper slips the sleeve and the handler pulls the dog back a little. the helper then threatens to take the sleeve, civilly, dog shows aggression, helper retreats..comes in again. reaches for the sleeve, dog aggresses, helper retreats..helper comes in closer to try to grab the sleeve. the dog does not try to grab the sleeve before the helper can get it (not the prey response), he comes over the sleeve and attempts to bite the helper... or the handler is not a post and allows the dog to advance too far and it actually bites the helper.

I see that as defense, not prey, not really fear either (in my mind), I guess maybe fear of losing the sleeve, just not fear that he was actually going to be hurt...

Another example.

A semi-mature "protective" type Rottweiler that is lacking in his bite intensity in normal everyday bite-work...
The dog is in a down. The agitator approaches the handler, shakes his hand... walks away...he comes back and goes to shake hands again and this time grabs the handler and starts beating on him violently. The dog explodes into violence with an attack, with intensity that he has not shown before..or a similar type of real life attack on a handler, which has happened before,not in training to some people. 

Again I think the dog may have reacted out of "fear" for his handler, but I would not think he reacted out of fear for himself. 

Depending on what happens after the bite, I can see the fear element (regarding it's own safety) becoming more prevalent in the dogs head, past the initial bite...

If the agitator screams and falls to the ground and does not fight back, does fear have anything to do with it? I don' know, but I don't think it does in my mind...

Those are 2 situations where I would think a dog is in defense, without being fearful for its own safety, the fear element is arguable I suppose, I just don't view it that way personally. I just view them as defense, by definition...defending...protecting...

Of course I agree with what you said 100%, in regards to a direct confrontation on the dog, by definition.

I just like to think of it as realization of a threat, as opposed to true fear..But, after reading some of the other posts and your posts and seeing what you think of the word fear as it relates to dog training, I do agree the the apprehension, agitation, stress, and anxiety ARE caused by a degree of fear, in most defense work.

My intention as I am sure you are aware of was not to argue anything, just explain how I view defense training. Glad to see some can actually make a thread engaging and informative, instead of inflammitory..or insulting...](*,)

I looked up the meanings of defense, for kicks.

The first three sources I found said:

Defense:
1.resistance against attack; protection:

Defense: 
1. The act of defending against attack, danger, or injury.
2. A means or method of defending or protecting.

Defense:
1. the act or power of defending, or guarding against attack, harm, or danger
2. the fact or state of being defended
3. something that defends; means of or resources for protection
4. a plan or system for defending.

I can agree with using the word fear in regards to defense training in dog, for the most part..by defintion..but not would not agree that CORRECT defense training is "scaring" dogs to any real degree...LOL...waters can get real muddied when looking at definitions of words and applying them...

After saying all that, if we go strictly by defintions of words...
I cannot find one definition of the word *DEFENSE* that contains the word *FEAR*.;-)


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Have they really worked through their fear or have they just learned there is nothing to fear so they stay in prey?


Could be either...hopefully they have some defensive skills to cope with the FEAR if it does ever appear for whatever reason, and incorporate that into the well rounded fighting "package" of skills, otherwise they may just decide to quit, or not engage.


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## Andy Larrimore

Excellent examples from Gary Patterson


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## tracey schneider

Jim Nash said:


> Joby where you lose me is when you point out that the dog perceives a threat or is defending itself or something but yet not even having the smallest degree of fear . If you fear nothing how can anything make you feel threatened .
> 
> I think many here feel the word fear as being a totally bad thing . Not neccessarily it can help in survival , effecting how something might fight if one chooses to do so or when to retreat if neccessary .
> 
> A good dog IMO has courage and can work through degrees of fear and how it does that is usually different (sometimes slightly , sometimes greatly ) from dog to dog . A good dog IMO can have a degree of fear and still desire to fight a badguy . It only becomes bad in manwork when the fear escalates to a point where the dog can't do the job it is expected to do .


+1 yup, yup, and yup

t


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## tracey schneider

Joby Becker said:


> After saying all that, if we go strictly by defintions of words...
> I cannot find one definition of the word *DEFENSE* that contains the word *FEAR*.;-)


thats because "fear" is what elicits defense.... 

t


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## Gerald Guay

Would not a definition of *DEFENSE* be:

The dog's *drive* or *will* to *DOMINATE* the prey who fights back.

GG


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## Gillian Schuler

I just wonder how the words came about!

Someone mentioned somewhere, "the Europeans just get on with it and don't discuss "defence" etc." This is a sweeping statement: for one, Europe compiles a number of countries and each country may have it's own attitude to dog sport.

In German "Defence" is for German speaking trainers "Abwehr", i.e. the dog's willingness to dominate the helper and to engage him so that he cannot escape. As I see it, simulated from the real case of a police dog stopping the criminal from fleeing.

In Schutzhund sport, the judge can only evaluate the dog's willingness to dominate - the outcome is and always will be uncertain as opposed to police dog work.

I know a lot won't agree with this but the dog comes into the hide after "Revier" ready to challenge the helper or, maybe at the worst, just to have a nibble at the sleeve later on.

The "European" (including Switzerland ))) judges are, in my opinion, more than qualified to judge a dog's quality, as he searches, as he faces the helper and the subsequent "fight" for the "sleeve".

For me "defence" is how I retaliated when my Mum accused me of doing something wrong. Either I succombed or I fought back (not telling you what I did but she did put the fear of God into me at times :-\")


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## Guest

Gerald Guay said:


> Would not a definition of *DEFENSE* be:
> 
> The dog's *drive* or *will* to *DOMINATE* the prey who fights back.
> 
> GG


No. Not in any way. What Jeff has said about "defense" being a fear based response is pretty much correct. Overly simplistic, but correct in a very broad sense. Whether the dog is perceiving a threat from an attacker or threat from starvation, dehydration, earthquake etc. what we broadly define as "defense" is an aspect of the dog's response. It is not necessarily fear in the most obvious sense. Prey can be an aspect of that as well. And of course a dog can and will fight as a fear response in defense of it's life, are you serious?


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## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> Jeff, I did post to argue with you, I gave me opinion, which I already know you do not agree with.
> I only read the thread up until Don's first post...
> 
> I kind of saw where Howard was trying to go and gave my opinion. I did not read ANY of your posts..
> 
> I suppose we have a different opinion on what constitutes real fear, or how it is defined. I would say conscious "concern" does not always equal FEAR.
> 
> Anyhow thought it was a good chance to explain what I think of when I think of defense training, as opposed to what some other people might think, like tying a dog up and whipping it, flanking it, or otherwise putting it into real FEAR mode,* stressing it too much..yadda yadda yadda...which was pointed out to by my other good friend on here Maggie..*
> :roll:


There now...sorted :smile: !


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## Terrasita Cuffie

maggie fraser said:


> There now...sorted :smile: !


This is where Lynda and I ended on this last night. I've had a problem with saying using pressure doesn't involve defense even in a minor degree. I agree that ultimately thresholds will determine if the dog sees decoy or animal posturing as a threat. However, what is generally considered "defense training" is where you are putting that dog in that ultimate fear state and he can't leave to elicit an aggessive reponse. I think it gets down to semantics and how every one wants to comfortably define fear. It exists along a continum. 

What's even more interesting to me at this point is other than the extreme display of ears back, tail tucked, teeth barred, how do you know whether that dog isn't in defense or sees a threat. I've seen videos where the idea was to read the dog for what drive he was in. Watch things like head/ear carriage, tail carriage, backing up, etc. 


Maybe this needs a new thread----Drives and reading a dog.


Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What's even more interesting to me at this point is other than the extreme display of ears back, tail tucked, teeth barred, how do you know whether that dog isn't in defense or sees a threat. I've seen videos where the idea was to read the dog for what drive he was in. Watch things like head/ear carriage, tail carriage, backing up, etc.
> Terrasita


Interesting point here. When a dog postures, i say he is in defense. He actually does feel threatened but is afraid to fight. He will if he has to.


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## Jim Nash

Don asked :

" Have they really worked through their fear or have they just learned there is nothing to fear so they stay in prey? "


With the exception of the 2 K9s I had descibed in one of these related discussions . After seeing well over 100 real K9 apprehensions involving bites and fighting , the rest of the dogs were not totally in prey . You'd have to see it . For those reading it that think it's either the dog being totally in defense or totally in prey , it's not that either . 

The use of drives started as a way to simply describe what someone thought they we seeing . Like I said before , so many of these terms have many different meanings now and it now makes discussions more complicated . 

In a real fight I believe using drives doesn't describe it properly or anything in dog training nowadays . IMO in a real fight the dog is simply confident , wants to fight and/or chase off the badguy and is going through different thought processes during it in order to win , you can see physical ques showing confidence when it's getting the upper hand and see physical signs of stress when it may be struggling to keep or has lost the upper hand and is fighting to get it back . A good dog just deals with the negative stress and fights through it . 

A young dog , unprepared , poorly trained or improperly selected dog , if it has enough confidence to get into the fight initially , will move from showing primarily confident signs to more and more signs of stress and eventually bail out of the fight if it starts losing the upperhand and is unprepared for it .

Now I also compete with PSD's and when training for competion the use of prey / defense drives are easier to use to explain things but I still don't like them . I'd much rather point out the the physical signs(behaviors) a dog is showing of either confidence , stress or weakness . 

With competition work it's easier because you are usually trying to make the K9 feel as confident as possible . So we train for these routines low stress(pressure) as possible . It's a game , and to get the most points we've found turning it into a game gets the best results . There is simply alot less going on with the dog so the signs (many refer to as prey and defense) are easier to see . 

We train different for the street then competition but the foundational work with new K9s starts out the same or very similar to sport work then progresses . We don't start out stressing(defensive type work) the dog right away or too soon because experiance has shown that usually just produces dogs that will do their best to look tough and scarey but if pushed to fight beyond the intitial bite (if it even bites) the dog will run off . 

We use that type of training later but still don't use it all the time because you then start usually getting very hectic and uncontrollable dogs . Instead we mix training up . Different scenerios , environments , people , no stress or different levels of stress . This makes for a more rounded dog because you can work and be more successful at teaching and maintain the control work you also need in a dog ( outs , recalls , redirections , you name it ) . I think it's better for the dog mentally because everything is not an all out battle , instead some fights are easy for them to win other varying in degrees of toughness for them to win . Others may have different experiances but these are what I have seen .


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## Maureen A Osborn

This is a great video showing a CC being testing in defense drive....note the body language of the dog, tail is not up and is tucking its rear a bit, yes the dog is engaging in the bite, but totallyl defensively
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8c7Pq0KoTM

Here is a video of my dogo being purely worked in prey, notice his body language, his bark, his tail

http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a374/abndogo/?action=view&current=011310-05.flv&newest=1http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a374/abndogo/?action=view&current=011310-04.flv&newest=1


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Wow that is sad.


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## Christopher Jones

Maureen A Osborn said:


> This is a great video showing a CC being testing in defense drive....note the body language of the dog, tail is not up and is tucking its rear a bit, yes the dog is engaging in the bite, but totallyl defensively
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8c7Pq0KoTM
> 
> Here is a video of my dogo being purely worked in prey, notice his body language, his bark, his tail
> 
> http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a374/abndogo/?action=view&current=011310-05.flv&newest=1


That CC reminded me alot of the last dozen or so Rottis I have seen. :-|

Defence to me isnt a hard thing to understand. Its simply when a dog sees a decoy as a threat, thus going into fight/flight mode. Some dogs run, others have some courage and fight. But defence is always only one step away from aviodence.
And for mine, the biggest group of working people who I hear talking and training defence is the SchH and the PP people.


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## Jim Nash

I was farting around on youtube after seeing Maureens link and found this showing classic avoidance behavior . Starts at 20 seconds. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUn3iAcToEk&feature=related


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Wow that is sad.


agreed.

DFrost


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> I was farting around on youtube after seeing Maureens link and found this showing classic avoidance behavior .
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUn3iAcToEk&feature=related


It's a good thing they were using a fence and a chain. They'd still be looking for that dog


DFrost


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## Jim Nash

David Frost said:


> It's a good thing they were using a fence and a chain. They'd still be looking for that dog
> 
> 
> DFrost


Sad thing is I know people who would say that dog was just smelling other dogs and was a good dog because he came forward aggressively at times toward the aggitator .


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## Don Turnipseed

I am going to agree with Jim Nashes assesment. You can have two dogs in identicle situation and one will be in defense while the other says bring it on. It has to be determined at the time watching the indivual dogs as they don't all react the same.


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## tracey schneider

Christopher Jones said:


> That CC reminded me alot of the last dozen or so Rottis I have seen. :-|
> 
> Defence to me isnt a hard thing to understand. Its simply when a dog sees a decoy as a threat, thus going into fight/flight mode. Some dogs run, others have some courage and fight. But defence is always only one step away from aviodence.
> And for mine, the biggest group of working people who I hear talking and training defence is the SchH and the PP people.


I agree with and true on the sch/pp part too. The only thing I would comment on is... It is always one step away if the dog stays there...in defense. Recovery and transition! 
T


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## Jim Nash

Howard Gaines III said:


> If prey is the dog's willingness to go after something, how can defense be "fear" based? F.E.A.R- false evidence appearing real...This has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard!!
> 
> So the thousands of military men and women are fearful? How can a dog be fearful and fight as well? If defense is fear based, then the animal OR man runs for safety, never shows again, and never offers to fight.
> 
> Offense and defense are balances of a survival behavior; being clear thinking allows for the thoughtful motions needed to engage, retreat, or kill.


As for the original post on this . I disagree . I see defense as the onset of fear . From the very mild onset that the dog can easily work through and still strongly and confidently commit to a fight because their desire to fight and drive off or conquer their opponent is stronger then the small degree of fear they are feeling . To fear in other dogs that they will run either immediately or as fear builds for them in a fight eventually .

I don't like speaking for soldiers because I have never been there but your analogy doesn't fit based on the some of the good soldiers I have spoken to . That's what I find so amazing about them , they can be faced with so much but still do their job and do it well . 

I'm not afraid to admit that I feel fear everytime I go to a hot call , because I know I can get hurt or killed , but I still race there and WANT to confront and take control of those dangerous situations . It's like an addiction , I can't wait for the next fix . 

I still think the terms prey and defense don't adequately describe what's going on .


----------



## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> I don't like speaking for soldiers because I have never been there but your analogy doesn't fit based on the some of the good soldiers I have spoken to .
> 
> I'm not afraid to admit that I feel fear everytime I go to a hot call , because I know I can get hurt or killed ,
> 
> I still think the terms prey and defense don't adequately describe what's going on .


It's difficult for military members to comment on the analogy. I thought about it, but then realized there really isn't any common ground there at all. I will say, on occasion, you have those guys that are all talk until the bullets start flying. Then they fold like a cheap card table. 

I knew I wasn't the only one with my heart in my throat on occasion. Afterward, ya think what the hell ever made us run toward the gunfire. ha ha.

DFrost


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## Guest

David Frost said:


> It's difficult for military members to comment on the analogy. I thought about it, but then realized there really isn't any common ground there at all.* I will say, on occasion, you have those guys that are all talk until the bullets start flying. Then they fold like a cheap card table. *
> 
> 
> That is so true!! Then you realize your standing, yes standing in the middle of a firefight yelling at your teamates to get the Fxxx Up!


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## Guest

This whole Prey vs Defense and all other terms used sound to me like a good old game of Soccer. Offense, Defense, have some fear and fight, only thing is the dog plays all the roles  I thinks its all about balance and channeling drives, all dogs are different and can't train them all alike, you have to recognize the behaviors and key on them to get the end result you want, but to assume all dogs that do X are fearful......I don't know.....


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## Candy Eggert

Jim Nash said:


> I was farting around on youtube after seeing Maureens link and found this showing classic avoidance behavior . Starts at 20 seconds.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUn3iAcToEk&feature=related


Looking for exit Stage Left (or was that right?!). ](*,)


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> because I know I can get hurt or killed , but I still race there and WANT to confront and take control of those dangerous situations . It's like an addiction , I can't wait for the next fix .


I think this is what we see in the dog's working dangerous stock. Its that desire to get control and maintian control even though they know the stock is threatening that fuels the fight. You can see it in terms of prey and defense to a point but this is the other element. I guess some refer to it as that fight to win drive. 

Jim when you are working the dogs on the street what are the signs of confidence, stress or weakness that you see?

Terrasita


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## Dan Long

Jim Nash said:


> Sad thing is I know people who would say that dog was just smelling other dogs and was a good dog because he came forward aggressively at times toward the aggitator .


They also would say that it stopped being aggressive once the decoy was out of range, because that kind of dog only needs to defend territory.


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think this is what we see in the dog's working dangerous stock. Its that desire to get control and maintian control even though they know the stock is threatening that fuels the fight. You can see it in terms of prey and defense to a point but this is the other element. I guess some refer to it as that fight to win drive.
> 
> Jim when you are working the dogs on the street what are the signs of confidence, stress or weakness that you see?
> 
> Terrasita


I'd say for confidence it's actively pursueing or searching for the suspect , once in scent dog can speed up (or slow down slightly but as long as he's inhaling deeply through his nose working the scent and checking areas for the suspect he's still confident IMO) , works scent or searches for scent or suspect good distance from handler , committed hard initial engagement , holding the bite as long as it's one where it has got good control regardless of how full , a full bite however is a good sign too , staying in on an extended fight maintaining good grips on the suspect . Somewhat deep bark with a medium cadence(sp?) . 

Non confident(negative) signs ; Slow pursuit , stalling type search behavior when dog gets into scent of suspect usually accompannied by hackling , dog works it's way out of scent and searches in other direction then back into scent excessively (dog trying to make up his mind"should I confront suspect or not ?" ) , non committed (stalling on the enterance to a bite or bouncing off or missing all together) , shallow bite , bites to the lower parts of the extremities (ankles/wrists) with short duration for holding the bite , shifting grips when not needed , excessive growling , backing off and coming back into bite . Not searching very far away from handler , fast explosive high sometimes pitched barks , lots of frontal teeth showing while barking or confronted . 

I'm sure I'm missing more . 

I want to caution that just because you see some of the negatives in a confrontation doesn't mean the dog is a sh***er . A dog can be shifting in and out of certain degrees of confidence throughout a fight . It's the combination of behaviors that you see while in the fight that tell the story . If there mainly confident signs with an occassional negative sign that's ok as long as the dog fights to get back into winning . If more and more negatives show up and the confident signs are dimenishing you've got problems . The onset can be very quick to taking awhile . Depends on the dog and depends on the type of fight and duration of fight .


For instance my current partner shows all confident signs searching and pursuing suspects but he growls once in on the bite . Not a good sign and something I noted early on but through training and testing before going out on the street he showed his overall confidence while in on the fight didn't change . He stayed in and held good strongs grips and maintained them even under great presure and in extended fights . So I felt he could do a good job on the street . On the street after 30 some bites , with some very long hard fights among them he maintains his mainly confident fighting and has never backed down . Still growls alot(stress) but I haven't seen that stress escalate into anything close to bailing out on a fight . 

Most bites/fights I've seen are not very long , handler and backup are there to help and suspect doesn't fight much other then pulling or trying to pull the dog off the bite . These really aren't that stressfull for an experianced K9 and IMO the suspect is acting more like prey . A new or inexperianced K9's first bite like this may be stressful though and not very good but that's usually mainly due to the added new stressors you can't duplicate in training ( no equipment , the feel of the real bite , the suspects reaction[haven't seen a decoy EVER come near the reactions of a real badguy] and this can lead to some confusion and insecurity initially in the fight but the dog usually leaves that first encounter much stronger and confident . Some dogs just take to it naturally and that's nice to see but that's not always the case . 

But having said that , it's the extended fight where the badguy fights the dog well is where you're going to start seeing the mix of confident and negative behaviors . 

As most here are referring to "defense" (I think) , I don't look at defensive behaviors as an all out retreat with the dog in flight . It can be in many confident great PSD's in a fight but the dog can work with it . It's not an all or nothing deal defense=flight . JMO though .


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Joby Becker said:


> Jeff, I did post to argue with you, I gave me opinion, which I already know you do not agree with.
> I only read the thread up until Don's first post...
> 
> I kind of saw where Howard was trying to go and gave my opinion. I did not read ANY of your posts..
> 
> I suppose we have a different opinion on what constitutes real fear, or how it is defined. I would say conscious "concern" does not always equal FEAR.
> 
> Anyhow thought it was a good chance to explain what I think of when I think of defense training, as opposed to what some other people might think, like tying a dog up and whipping it, flanking it, or otherwise putting it into real FEAR mode, stressing it too much..yadda yadda yadda...which was asked for by my other good friend on here Maggie..
> :roll:


*Joby thanks for that refereshing and POSITIVE reply!*
YOUR point that defense can, but isn't always fear based, this is my point. How can a broad-brushed statement like that be made? Many dog breeds are defensive in their genetics, this doesn't make them FEAR biters! LE dogs are trained in DEFENSE of their handlers/patrol work and this doesn't make them fear biters b/c "defense is fear based."

Patterson's writings I have read and there's solid stuff in there. 

Prey as many use us know is the dog's willingness to chase. This drive can then be refined into tracking, scenting, scent discrimination, herding, retrieving, flyball,...

Defense is the dog's willingness to either defend or run, defending going into fight drives and the willingness to "mix it up." I would also go as far to say that some but not all avoidance can be fear based. Again, no broad-brushed labels. I have worked defensive lines dogs that NEVER showed "fear" in their defense of their handler.

Thanks for the GP information!!!


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## David Frost

"LE dogs are trained in DEFENSE of their handlers/patrol work and this doesn't make them fear biters b/c "defense is fear based."

That is an apples to oranges comparison. It has absolutely nothing to do with handler protection training. I disagree with several things in your post, but that is neither here nor there. Comparing handler protection to any type of defense behavior is inaccurate. 

DFrost


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## Eric Read

why are people so fearful of the word fear being used to describe something that might drive their dogs behavior?


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## Christopher Jones

Howard Gaines III said:


> Defense is the dog's willingness to either defend or run, defending going into fight drives and the willingness to "mix it up." I would also go as far to say that some but not all avoidance can be fear based. Again, no broad-brushed labels. I have worked defensive lines dogs that NEVER showed "fear" in their defense of their handler.
> 
> Thanks for the GP information!!!


Defence is a state of mind in the dog, that is his saftey is threatened and he needs to respond one way or the other. I dont see anywhere where people are saying you can get strong defensive dogs, but defence by its essence is reactive. The dog relies on the decoy to start him. Sure you can get a dog that then goes into defence easy and quickly because through conditioning he expects a threat, so he anticpates it. Kinda like a young dog who gets attacked by another dog and as a defence mechanism he then shows aggression to other dogs, kinda "get in first" mentality. But then they can also go the other way, in that if they win in defence their threshold goes up and more pressure is required to then get the same aggressive response. And this continues until some dogs just shutdown. Where you start to see the weakness in these defensive dogs is where the dogs are sent away from their handlers, or where they are sent into a building by themselfs to hunt, find, and then engage a passive decoy hidden away.
That is why alot of people are moving away from defensive dogs and moving to more prey/fight based dogs. 
Anyway, thats how I see it for what its worth.


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## David Frost

Eric Read said:


> why are people so fearful of the word fear being used to describe something that might drive their dogs behavior?


I'm not a bit fearful of the word fear. In fact, I recognize it for what it is. A good trainer must be able to do that. Recognizing that defense is a fear based behavior is crucial in determining if a particular dog(since each dog will handle this differently) will be able to overcome the fear and do what is required of it. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash

Howard , how do you go from talking about "defense" as a behavior to "defense of the handler" which is an action ? 2 entirely different things .


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We chose the few that go forward when frightened.


Somewhat supporting this, although not dogs, I saw a program about a Police Mount that lead the rest of the mounted cop's horses through a bunch of rioters when they had gotten cut off from their group. Being herd animals, if just one horse has the stones to go through something they rest will likely follow. Since the one horse was able to follow direction & behave seemingly unflappable in pushing through the chaos, the entire unit escaped any serious harm.
The point of the program was to try to measure "bravery" in the horse. They defined bravery as the animal being afraid, but complying to his rider's demands regardless. What they found is that horses that skittish-dance around "scary objects" & act out actually have lower heart rates, blood pressure, respiration rates, stress hormones in the blood, etc, while the horses that seemed more to be more calm & collected in the same test actually had higher physical stress.
These were the horses they categorized as "brave".. being/feeling more stressed but still able to hold their shit together & do their job. Obviously, prey animals like horses are quite a bit different than dogs, but I found the study interesting!

Oh! and I strongly prefer an "offensive" type dog. Often people will bring their dogs out to train with our group where the dog comes in (we train inside) all teeth & nastiness, lunging & looking like it's a killer, but if the decoy doesn't react immediately, it usually doesn't take but a second or two for the dog to look pretty happy that the decoy isn't coming after it. It quiets down, looks for something to sniff &/or goes back to its handler.. often behind its handler. These kind of dogs don't really WANT to fight.. they don't demand the fight. When they see they aren't going to have to defend themselves against the decoy, they look as relieved as can be. I'm not such a fan of breeding &/or training that produces these kinds of results. Regardless of whether the offensive dog wants to "play bite" or eviscerate the decoy, I want the dog to _want_ to be there & demand the action.


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## Margaret Wheeler

Hey everyone, hope you all had a happy 4th!

I made it through like 5 pages of careful reading. Apologies to posters whom I didhn't read. 

I have to agree with the folks who suggest that drive lingo is way too simplistic for discussng and describing a good working dog's behavior. First working breeds inbred interests and behaviors seem to me to be something apart from basic insticnts and drives and their attendant behaviors. Second, I don't think it's anthropomorphic to attribute thoughts and feelings to animals. So to me a dog can be afraid of something without being fear driven.

I really enjoyed reading Don's discussion of his hog dogs and I think they like working terriers and sheedogs provide clear examples of the complexities of an independent working canine partner. Thanks to their breeding these dogs have a powerful interest in engaging in certain activities and also posess a group of behaviors that support the activities. To me it seems like theres a core group of behaviors that are virtually necessary to whatever work the dog is bred for and then there are behaviors that are more on the periphary. I think that these interests and behaviors are significantly different than say a coyote hunting mice or jumping out of range of a rattler's strike (behaviors which to me lend themselves to drive terminology).

Take my sheepdog Nell. To me, talking about Nell on sheep is best done in terms of the way I talk about people working, playing etc. She was a very hardworking independent sheepdog in her day. She is insane for sheep (that's what I would call her innate interest). As for supporting behaviors: She uses her eyes and position and rate of speed to control the sheep. She's a biddable dog but definitely has her own ideas about how the job should be done, still she is not a dog that needs micromanagement. Give her a game plan and some clear goals with supporting commands and she'll get the job done without the handler needing to whistle non stop. We don't always agree on how the job should be done and more often than not it's best for me to let her make the call.

On the other hand she is afraid sometimes: she is definitely not your dog for moving anything that won't be finessed: an angrily protective mama ewe or an ornery ram. I wouldn't say that she is driven by fear in these situations so much as thatr she looks into her bag of tricks and comes up empty, kinda like me running into a bear with just a berry bucket in my hands. Despite this, I don't know anyone who wouldn't say she's a very useful dog.

I don't think her interest in sheep is so very different from my own interest in dogs. I've not been without one since I got to be old enough to be such a pain in the ass that my parents couldn't put me off any longer lol. I'm stubborn and argumentative when I think I'm right just like her. We are both scurred of thunderstorms.8-[

Now, all that works for me with regard to the more clearcut examples like sheepdogs and hunting dogs, but I'm not sure where to take it with dogs like my GSD Fiete. If I were to describe his primary interest it would be actively accompanying me. Supporting behaviors would be chasing, biting and barking and supervising our turf. When we first fired a gun in his presence (off the bite) he glanced back at me and then went on. From then on he doesn't even pause when the gun is fired. Would I want him to carrry on slavering after the decoy when he heard a gun for the first time?

To me he wasn't in some fear state when he looked at me, he was checking in. When we work with the decoy he seems like he's playing and having fun even when he's getting whacked with the bamboo. But I would feel kinda silly attributing his behavior to prey drive or any other drive for that matter, that's just way too dramatic and grand for what's going on (even if it is way cool!)

Anyway, cool topic and thanks for all the interesting reading!


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## Anne Pridemore

After reading this a few times I think I get what the thread is about. :lol:

So my input would be....

Bite when trained is eather a game to the dog or seen as a level self preservation. If the dog thinks its a game there is no fear- only fun. If the dog thinks he is fighting for his life there is some level of fear. So it comes down to how the dog was trained.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Thats crap. How a dog sees things is based on what he is. To put it simply as how he is trained is goofy.


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## Don Turnipseed

I don't care for defensive dogs. I always say, if you want to understand dogs, look at people because the behaviors are pretty much the same. A scared person will react in one of two ways when pushed in a corner. One way is he will cave in. The other way is he may kill you. The person has no control over either reaction. It is totally fear based. The lack of intent and control is what I don't like about defensive dogs. You just don't know what you are going to be dealling with and won't have much control because they are not controlled. A dog in prey or offence, has control which in turn gives me better contol of what I am dealing with. Don't know if that makes sense.


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## Anne Pridemore

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Thats crap. How a dog sees things is based on what he is. To put it simply as how he is trained is goofy.


That is nature, nurture, genectics arguement. 

My opinion is not fact, I never clamed so. Just how I see it at this point in my training experiance. The fact is no matter how good any of us are- we will never BE dogs and can only make our best guess at what is going on.


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## Christopher Smith

Eric Read said:


> why are people so fearful of the word fear being used to describe something that might drive their dogs behavior?



Classic projection. They have fears that they can't confront or conquer and they are crippled by those fears. So they fear that their dogs are also unable to confront or conquer their fears.


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## Mike Lauer

Anne Pridemore said:


> Bite when trained is eather a game to the dog or seen as a level self preservation. If the dog thinks its a game there is no fear- only fun. If the dog thinks he is fighting for his life there is some level of fear. So it comes down to how the dog was trained.


What about a dog defending its master (or yard or anything else) in what it sees as a real situation
the dog is neither playing a game, nor is he in fear

... if he is confident, he just wants to kick your ass...for real...this is my goal when I am done training


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## Margaret Wheeler

Mike Lauer said:


> What about a dog defending its master (or yard or anything else) in what it sees as a real situation
> the dog is neither playing a game, nor is he in fear
> 
> ... if he is confident, he just wants to kick your ass...for real...this is my goal when I am done training


Whose ass does he want to kick? I'm seriously asking.


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## Margaret Wheeler

> ... if he is confident, he just wants to kick your ass...for real...this is my goal when I am done training
> __________________
> Mike Lauer





Margaret Wheeler said:


> Whose ass does he want to kick? I'm seriously asking.


Doh! I understand now. You mean that at the end of the dog is all about being a dominating jose whenever and where ever he's called upon... it's not a game or motivated by fear or pursuit... it's just what he does. I think that's a pretty awesome description of the goal. Sorry for missing your point at first, but I wasn't prepared for a fundamental truth offered up in one short sentence!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
... if he is confident, he just wants to kick your ass...for real...this is my goal when I am done training

My goal is that the next dog I compete with doesn't pull any 6 0's crap at the Nationals.

Not really into the amateur shit of will my dog protect me crap. LOL


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## John Wolf

This may or may not be on topic, but it came up while I was reading this thread.

Has anybody experienced a dog that is an "adrenaline junkie"? There are humans that do incredibly stupid things and they have fear but their need for the adrenaline rush overrides. Could it be that a dog is the same way? Could/would a dog put itself in harms way simply for the thrill of doing it?

Stupid question, I know, just thinking out loud.


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## Mike Scheiber

John Wolf said:


> This may or may not be on topic, but it came up while I was reading this thread.
> 
> Has anybody experienced a dog that is an "adrenaline junkie"? There are humans that do incredibly stupid things and they have fear but their need for the adrenaline rush overrides. Could it be that a dog is the same way? Could/would a dog put itself in harms way simply for the thrill of doing it?
> 
> Stupid question, I know, just thinking out loud.


Comonmang :idea:


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## Maureen A Osborn

John Wolf said:


> This may or may not be on topic, but it came up while I was reading this thread.
> 
> Has anybody experienced a dog that is an "adrenaline junkie"? There are humans that do incredibly stupid things and they have fear but their need for the adrenaline rush overrides. Could it be that a dog is the same way? Could/would a dog put itself in harms way simply for the thrill of doing it?
> 
> Stupid question, I know, just thinking out loud.


Hog dogs do it all the time 8)


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## Anne Pridemore

Mike Lauer said:


> What about a dog defending its master (or yard or anything else) in what it sees as a real situation
> the dog is neither playing a game, nor is he in fear
> 
> ... if he is confident, he just wants to kick your ass...for real...this is my goal when I am done training


This can just as easily be called resource gaurding by some. They would then tell you that the dog is fearful of not having his things and attacks to keep them. :lol:

As far as defending master the dog has been trained for the job or is gaurding what belongs to him. Personaly I would rather the dog be trained for it correctly than have him decide what is an is not a threat. Dogs that act like bullies are a law suit on a leash.


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## Anne Pridemore

John Wolf said:


> This may or may not be on topic, but it came up while I was reading this thread.
> 
> Has anybody experienced a dog that is an "adrenaline junkie"? There are humans that do incredibly stupid things and they have fear but their need for the adrenaline rush overrides. Could it be that a dog is the same way? Could/would a dog put itself in harms way simply for the thrill of doing it?
> 
> Stupid question, I know, just thinking out loud.


Have you met a Mal in person? :lol:


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## John Wolf

haha. own one. Sorry for the dumb question. I suppose that is what we are training working dogs to do. Prolly should have stopped at that eighth Bells Two-Hearted Ale.


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## Howard Gaines III

Genetics and enviromental conditioning....
The best bred dog in poor conditions can't showcase well!
Rewards and training have lots to do with it, but poor genes will never make a great dog....


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## maggie fraser

Howard Gaines III said:


> Genetics and enviromental conditioning....
> The best bred dog in poor conditions can't showcase well!
> Rewards and training have lots to do with it, but poor genes will never make a great dog....


 
Have you just come round ?  Unlucky 13 huh


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## Jeff Oehlsen

howard, you are babbling again.


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## Margaret Wheeler

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> howard, you are babbling again.


Whoa! My husband says that to me... Howard, I think you might have an admirer.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

And he was that desperate for company that he chose you.


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## Margaret Wheeler

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> And he was that desperate for company that he chose you.


=;

Do you come home from the bar and post?

You seem to have a good group of friends who admire your work with dogs and who find you a likable sort of guy and who appreciate your help. You have done yourself proud in service to our country. You know A LOT about working dogs and the info you share is really helpful.

So, considering the fact that you have so much going for you, I don't see what you gain from sniping people who rub you the wrong way. Also, when you do this you set a bad example for the lesser mortals who read here. Taken together this crap inhibits the free flow of discussion because everybody but the big dogs (whom you clearly don't mess with) is just waiting for you to show up and nail ass to the wall. 

Also, it's completely ridiculous when threads have to be closed because you show up and stir shit. If it's a redundant thread who really gives a crap? There's so many people logging in and reading here, what's the harm in rehashing prey vs defense or pack order or dominance or whatever? If they missed it last time, they'll get it this time.

Don't get me wrong, I like reading you when you actually argue an issue. You are funny and smart and like I said you know your shit. You don't suffer fools and that's just fine with me, but I don't see the point of hectoring people for no other reason than you can.


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## maggie fraser

It's what we call crack in my part of the world... give a little poke, and see what you get :razz:

Jeff is fab, this place can be bland sometimes without him...


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## Margaret Wheeler

maggie fraser said:


> It's what we call crack in my part of the world... give a little poke, and see what you get :razz:
> 
> Jeff is fab, this place can be bland sometimes without him...


 
haha <3 Maggie... you caught me being a grouchy old mommy type.


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## maggie fraser

Margaret Wheeler said:


> haha <3 Maggie... you caught me being a grouchy old mommy type.


 
Sometimes all it takes is a wee poke .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So you are saying that her husband has a small............................

Damn that is wrong.


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## maggie fraser

I prefer to think of it as gentle agitation....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think she needed the spin cycle. : )


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## maggie fraser

I'm outta here before I incriminate myself


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## Howard Gaines III

maggie fraser said:


> Have you just come round ?  Unlucky 13 huh


 Boxed up in Scotland! 
Come around or been around? 
The wheel is still round, but the rotation speed may change. Back to the question..............hooter!:mrgreen:


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## Maureen A Osborn

http://www.workingdogs.com/deleissegues_rott.htm

prey vs defense drive defined


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