# KNPV Lines



## Domenik Girardi (Feb 2, 2016)

Im trying to learn a bit more about the knpv lines as Im considering one for me next dog. Its at least 5 years down the line though. I have a 1 year WL shepherd right now.
My ideal dog would be extremely high drive yet be able to cap his drive, have rock solid nerves as well as have a great off switch and do well around kids. I love the look of shepherds but not the health issues that plagues the majority of the breed. Even tho my guy is healthy so far the possibility of bad hips scares me. I think my best bet is a knpv line dog with clear gsd influence. Id like a nice dark dog bigger than a mal but drivier and more athletic than a GSD. I love my pup and he is a good worker and has great nerve loves kids but i would want more drive for a dog that would be able to do really well in PSA.
Does a dog I'm describing even exist? If it does does anyone know what blood lines or breeders to look at.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

The vast majority of KNPV dogs are unregistered Mals and DS's. There are differences in the various lines of those dogs.
When you mention a dog from KNPV lines with GSD influence, I'm assuming you mean a cross between a GSD and a Mal/DS. The problem you will run into there is that if you go with a pup (good luck finding a GSD X Mal/DS breeding) you are not really getting a pup from an established bloodline. If that is how you want to go, you will be much more likely to find a GSD X Mal adult. Then you get into the issue of if the dog is so good, why is he for sale? 
I would forget about the physical appearance aspect and focus on learning about actual proven bloodlines of unregistered Mals/DS's and your odds of getting a healthy dog with intense drives and good nerves will improve.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

There is a breeder in Tennessee called Camelot German Shepherds who breeds what they call "Shepinois." You can Google them. I know nothing about them.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

The lines that I have success with are Berry II, Duke, Tyco, Rocky III, Boy II, Pica, Bronco, DackX all very high drive and good nerve, I like all of them but I think my favorite in my club right now is a pup from Duke, I don't know if I'm getting old or what but I have to wear two inserts and I just ordered a 1/2 inch thick insert to go inside my training weight suit, if I don't I can feel his pressure on my bone. On Off switch are trained behavior for me. But buying a pup is a crap shoot, I've seen two sibling and both are biting good but one is 75 pounds and one is 55 pounds, they were the same size when we picked them up at the airport. You just never know.


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## Domenik Girardi (Feb 2, 2016)

@chip 
From what I understood knpv lines where bred as crosses relatively loosely And most dogs have some gsd mal and dutchie in them. What i mean be gsd influence is i guess resemblance to the gsd not much but just a nice big head kind of how Rico or Mosely look like a pitt and i know mosely was from an out cross litter so all those pups where a crap shoot. I wouldnt be opposed to getting a green dog but you are right it does raise concern. 
Drive temperament and nerve are definitely most important to me but i figure if this is 5 or 6 years down the line why not get everything i want in a dog. 

Ive looked into Camelot a while back and was not impressed. They have a lot of dogs and very few tittles. They also specifically say their designer crosses do not have the drive of a typical mal. lol Im looking for more than the average mal. 

@khoi 
I have looked into a Berry II breeding before i got my dog but did not know anything about knpv and was convinced by other that a working line gsd would be way too much for me to handle let alone a knpv line dog... But at least now i have a great starter dog and the time to really dive into the knpv world. Tyco seems like my dream dog! What is it about duke that you really like besides his powerful bite. I agree buying a pup is a crapshoot but like Chip said if a green dog is so great why is he for sale? Also these are some great dogs but how do i judge the females? Are there any breeders in the us that use these lines? 

Thanks for your answers and all the good info by the way!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

You can also consider Logan Haus Kennels in West Virginia.


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## Domenik Girardi (Feb 2, 2016)

@sarah 
I love the dogs mike produces and imports! I will probably end up purchasing my dog through when I decide the time is right. Right now im still trying to gather information on all the different lines


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

This dog has everything I want, drive, nerve, powerful deep bite, size, social, clear head, very easy to train. This is him at 6 months, now at 11 months he have got a solid clean out and solid recall re attack.
https://vimeo.com/152845589


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Looks like a nice pup, you guys are doing real nice work with him. Where is he from? I mean breeder.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Thanks Nicole, he is an import from Netherland, his breeder is Helena Gerrits, Duke X Sita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with the Logan Haus dogs.

The problem I see here though is wanting certain size, color and looks in general combined with the attitude and drives the op is looking for. That can really narrow down the options.

Nothing nicer to watch is an "ugly" dog that is a working fool compared to a beautiful dog that isn't worth feeding.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The problem I see here though is wanting certain size, color and looks in general combined with the attitude and drives the op is looking for. That can really narrow down the options.
> 
> Nothing nicer to watch is an "ugly" dog that is a working fool compared to a beautiful dog that isn't worth feeding.


I'm not sure that's a problem. It's a matter of priorities, they're his. I figure that's cool, I can't see through his eyes so let him behold what he wants. That said there IS something nicer to watch and that is a beautiful specimen that is a working machine. 

Talk about looking back and turning into a pillar of salt. How about one look at something you never forget? If it ever happens, and it's a rare privilege, but its something that stays with you forever. :idea:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My priority was a sable GSD.

This littler I tested had two dogs that tested out perfect (for me).

One was a sable male and the other was a bi-color female.

I chose the bi female because I told myself I wasn't going to choose based on color. 

I got home, didn't have the pup yet and the wife said "WHY did you NOT take the sable like you always wanted if they tested out the same?"

I told her my reason and she said "Get back on the phone and see if he'll still let you take the sable instead".

I did, he did and I wound up with the best dog I ever owned. 

  :grin:


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## Domenik Girardi (Feb 2, 2016)

I agree and i would much rather have a dog that works and is stable but ugly than a beautiful dog that doesnt work. I figure if I'm going to be waiting at least 5 to 10 years anyway why not wait until everything comes together. A beautiful dog that works well is worth waiting for to me.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Domenik Girardi said:


> I agree and i would much rather have a dog that works and is stable but ugly than a beautiful dog that doesnt work. I figure if I'm going to be waiting at least 5 to 10 years anyway why not wait until everything comes together. A beautiful dog that works well is worth waiting for to me.


I wouldn't wait too long because it will be more difficult in 5-10 years time. The KNPV is almost a thing of the past, fewer and fewer young people are willing to take up the sport, the changing society is catching up quickly to rural Holland and KNPV is considered "low class" and training methods of old are looked upon with disdain. Sad but inevitable and true.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I didn't realize that Robin. Presumably KNPV will always have a place in the working dog world but it sounds as if that's not likely?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I didn't realize that Robin. Presumably KNPV will always have a place in the working dog world but it sounds as if that's not likely?


Not really, it's slowing down big time in Holland. In the nineties, when I spent a lot of time in Holland and had friends in the KNPV, the main complaint was that there were barely any young people entering the sport. Haven't been there for a few years but I don't imagine it's any different. If anything, I suspect it's there's an even greater rate of attrition. A lot of the helpers even back then were old guys like me, looked kinda funny.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's unfortunate to hear on all accounts. Curious comment about the helpers I noticed that as well but never formed much of a thought about it except feeling mad respect for those guys.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Are you up for importing?
If so how about a dog from Perle de tourbiere?


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## Domenik Girardi (Feb 2, 2016)

I am really surprised and saddened to hear that... I thought of knpv as the main working k9 supplier to the rest of the world. 

Yes i am totally fine with importing a dog! I am just not quite sure how i would be able to tell if the dog will be right for me with out having met him.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I have a feeling that some of this has to do with the breeding programs developed in the USA off established KNPV lines. The only problem I see with that, is knowing who the reputable individuals are. I know there are pockets of breeders with very good dogs, I've stumbled across them here on the WDF but since I won't get on board with FaceBook or where ever else working dog folks are socially networking and am no longer in contact with some of those individuals, I'm SOL.

Maybe better said, I am dubious that finding a good dog isn't going to require another 1-2 year investment of my time in developing a rapport with someone I'd like to get a dog from.

On the topic of KNPV lines, Khoi I'd like to see some more video of that dog you posted above.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Domenik Girardi said:


> I am really surprised and saddened to hear that... I thought of knpv as the main working k9 supplier to the rest of the world.
> 
> *Yes i am totally fine with importing a dog! I am just not quite sure how i would be able to tell if the dog will be right for me with out having met him.*




That's the problem nowadays. There are now brokers on both sides of the deal and they both want their share of course and that becomes more important than getting you the dog that is right for what you want to do with it. It's business now but it wasn't always the case. JMHO.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Domenik Girardi said:


> I am really surprised and saddened to hear that... I thought of knpv as the main working k9 supplier to the rest of the world.
> 
> Yes i am totally fine with importing a dog! I am just not quite sure how i would be able to tell if the dog will be right for me with out having met him.


Contact the Kennel and go visit?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> [/B]
> 
> That's the problem nowadays. There are now brokers on both sides of the deal and they both want their share of course and that becomes more important than getting you the dog that is right for what you want to do with it. It's business now but it wasn't always the case. JMHO.


I agree, and I haven't been all that well connected and only involved with Dutch lined dogs since 2009. A bit of a sad commentary on the situation considering. If I am wrong about this, someone please correct me. Travel is not a concern. I've visited many breeders and consider it part of the deal in forming a relationship and making an informed decision.


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## Ray Turnbow (Sep 6, 2015)

I love my K10 puppy who comes from knpv lines. She is great with my two young kids, confident, and a hard worker.


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## Domenik Girardi (Feb 2, 2016)

@ray what is a k10 puppy?


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## Ray Turnbow (Sep 6, 2015)

Domenik Girardi said:


> @ray what is a k10 puppy?


My puppy is from k10 working dogs USA branch.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Just asking out of curiosity, do you (the collective "you," that is) see anything filling that void?

It seems if there is enough need (and thus enough money too), that something would fill the void left by a shortage of reliable KNPV line dogs. That could be via a new sport that would help test for certain types of dogs, or evolution of an old one, or people turning to Ring/SchH/PSA/whatever for their working dogs, or just a reliance on individual breeders who breed the kind of dog people want for police/K9, SAR, sport, PPD, whatever.

That is all just my musing, however. I know some breeders that I trust and have heard enough from to get a dog from if I were in the market. And yet, I am not really in the mix of things and my priorities/needs at the moment are different than most. It just seems if there is enough legitimate need, interest, and yes, money, that something like KNPV (or that would fill that niche) would arise. I think PSA and attempts at a sort of KNPV-USA have attempted that, yet never seemed to really take off.

-Cheers


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Just asking out of curiosity, do you (the collective "you," that is) see anything filling that void?
> 
> -Cheers


I do and it's a bit of an age old problem of sort. It's money = contractors and breeders with areas of specialization.


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