# New Focused Scenting Video



## Konnie Hein

I made a new video of Tom Moorcroft's (member of this forum) dog Rascal performing a barrel search during training last weekend. Despite numerous distractions, Rascal gets the job done. He finds me in the barrel and shows no interest in the barking dog, flying toys, food, banging balls and noisy bystanders nearby. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-zHyHxru9s#


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## Chad Byerly

Very cool! How long has it taken to progress to this stage, with this dog?


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## Rose DeLuca

Excellent work ! Keep posting the videos I really enjoy seeing them !

What is the person behind the barrel doing ?


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## Konnie Hein

Chad Byerly said:


> Very cool! How long has it taken to progress to this stage, with this dog?


We chart their progress by "training days." It only took a handful or so of training days to get Rascal to this point. We started Rascal on the Focused Scenting method at the end of January '08, so he's way beyond this level now (he is doing multiple-victim searches on the rubble pile in anticipation of an upcoming evaluation). We recorded this video last weekend because I realized we hadn't caught this level of distraction on video. 

With the right kind of dog, the training moves quickly.


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## Konnie Hein

Rose DeLuca said:


> Excellent work ! Keep posting the videos I really enjoy seeing them !
> 
> What is the person behind the barrel doing ?


The person behind the barrel is operating the distraction ball. The distraction ball is a rubber gappay-type ball on a really long line. The person operating it pulls the ball along the ground and then through the barrel (if you look closely, you can see it move slightly on the ground prior to Rascal coming on screen) as a moving distraction and then continuously moves it up and down inside the barrel as a noise distraction. 

As you can see, Rascal doesn't pay any attention to it regardless. He learned right away that it was nowhere near as satisfying as finding a person to tug with.


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## ann schnerre

cool! Rascal's probably thinking "what's WRONG with these ppl that they don't get my message????"


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## Anna Kasho

That was very cool to watch... I can see it takes a specific kind of dog, one who wants to work actively with people rather than just get his toy and call it a day. I liked his look when the guy tried to pull him away from the barrel...:twisted:


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## Jennifer Coulter

Anna Kasho said:


> That was very cool to watch... I can see it takes a specific kind of dog, one who wants to work actively with people rather than just get his toy and call it a day. I liked his look when the guy tried to pull him away from the barrel...:twisted:


Konnie, Anna's post got me thinking...

I have often seen reference to this meathod needing a special kind of dog. Besides being bite/tug motivated, do you really think it takes a dog that wants to work actively with people? I am not sure what that really means? Biddable? Social?

I ask because I could see this method working well (or some mofified form) for our avi dogs, and mine for example I do not think "wants to work with people" he just wants to do whatever he has to to get the tug game going.

How do you find the dog that can be trained by this method different from other SAR/detection dogs?

Anna...I was totally expecting to that guy to get bit when they pulled on the mal from behind


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## Konnie Hein

Jennifer-
The dog I would choose to train for USAR the "old way" is the same dog I would choose for our new method. Overall, it is a high drive dog that loves the game of tugging that will succeed. Low and medium drive dogs need not apply. 

We've used this method several times on dogs whose handlers said there was no way their dog would ignore the moving ball/tug, or was too possessive to learn to ignore the ball/tug without hammering them with a correction. Imagine their surprise when we allow the dog to choose for himself and he makes the desired choice. :-D 

The only dogs we've seen do poorly in this method are dogs who wouldn't make good USAR dogs regardless, and the "failure" was directly related to lack of drive or confidence.

This method was adapted from Randy Hare's detection training method. He trains dogs for narcotics and explosives detection. We've used his same method/boxes to train dogs for human remains detection. So, there's really not a _big_ difference in the type of dog for each detection discipline. 

I think this method would be great for avalance search dogs. In essence, what you're doing is the same as what I'm doing - it's just a different surface (snow vs. rubble).


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## Konnie Hein

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Anna...I was totally expecting to that guy to get bit when they pulled on the mal from behind


Sweet little Rascal???!!! No way! :-D


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## Jennifer Coulter

Konnie Hein said:


> Jennifer-
> The dog I would choose to train for USAR the "old way" is the same dog I would choose for our new method. Overall, it is a high drive dog that loves the game of tugging that will succeed. Low and medium drive dogs need not apply.
> 
> We've used this method several times on dogs whose handlers said there was no way their dog would ignore the moving ball/tug, or was too possessive to learn to ignore the ball/tug without hammering them with a correction. Imagine their surprise when we allow the dog to choose for himself and he makes the desired choice. :-D
> 
> The only dogs we've seen do poorly in this method are dogs who wouldn't make good USAR dogs regardless, and the "failure" was directly related to lack of drive or confidence.
> 
> This method was adapted from Randy Hare's detection training method. He trains dogs for narcotics and explosives detection. We've used his same method/boxes to train dogs for human remains detection. So, there's really not a _big_ difference in the type of dog for each detection discipline.
> 
> I think this method would be great for avalance search dogs. In essence, what you're doing is the same as what I'm doing - it's just a different surface (snow vs. rubble).


I appreciate the explination, makes total sense to me.

I would love to come to a course some time to figure the best way to be able to incorporate some of these ideas into some of our puppy training!


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## Bob Scott

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Konnie, Anna's post got me thinking...
> 
> I have often seen reference to this meathod needing a special kind of dog. Besides being bite/tug motivated, do you really think it takes a dog that wants to work actively with people? I am not sure what that really means? Biddable? Social?
> 
> I ask because I could see this method working well (or some mofified form) for our avi dogs, and mine for example I do not think "wants to work with people" he just wants to do whatever he has to to get the tug game going.
> 
> How do you find the dog that can be trained by this method different from other SAR/detection dogs?
> 
> Anna...I was totally expecting to that guy to get bit when they pulled on the mal from behind


Jennifer, I've always looked for a dog that enjoys interaction with people. A natural willingness to retrieve is always a high priority with me for any dog I would select. That goes for straight obedience, SAR or any dog activity. 
If a dog is rewarded with just possession of a tug/toy/etc that can be worked with but I still prefer a dog that looks at the toy as the beginning of the reward WITH the "victim" or the handler. that's just my individual choice. 
You say that "he just wants to do whater he has to to get the tug game going". 
IMHO he's doing what I look for. I've seen a number of dogs that aren't necessarily interested in different people but will gladly bring a stranger a tug if they know they can get a game out of it. I don't now if it's necessarily a social thing, just a drive to bring the toy for the fun of the game. 
Now, the extreme of this would be a dog that can't/won't make decisions without the handler. That can be the dog or a training issue.


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## Rose DeLuca

Konnie Hein said:


> Jennifer-
> The dog I would choose to train for USAR the "old way" is the same dog I would choose for our new method. Overall, it is a high drive dog that loves the game of tugging that will succeed. Low and medium drive dogs need not apply.
> 
> We've used this method several times on dogs whose handlers said there was no way their dog would ignore the moving ball/tug, or was too possessive to learn to ignore the ball/tug without hammering them with a correction. Imagine their surprise when we allow the dog to choose for himself and he makes the desired choice. :-D
> 
> I just noticed exactly what you described this weekend; when from far away, after spinning my wheels on wet rubble thinking it would take me way toooooooo long to get over there- I decided to whip the toy into where the dog was alerting( at his nose). The dog totally ignored the tug I threw in which hit him and continued barking for the victim to engage. (I was practicing handler reward in lieu of this weekend  when I got there I opened the hole and handed the tug in- happy dog-
> 
> How do you prevent the build up of drive to access into the victim to make contact for the game ? I'm careful that we always reward on barks (not digs) but he has gotting more intense to get in - Txs !


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## Rose DeLuca

Rose DeLuca said:


> Konnie Hein said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jennifer-
> The dog I would choose to train for USAR the "old way" is the same dog I would choose for our new method. Overall, it is a high drive dog that loves the game of tugging that will succeed. Low and medium drive dogs need not apply.
> 
> We've used this method several times on dogs whose handlers said there was no way their dog would ignore the moving ball/tug, or was too possessive to learn to ignore the ball/tug without hammering them with a correction. Imagine their surprise when we allow the dog to choose for himself and he makes the desired choice. :-D
> 
> _I just noticed exactly what you described this weekend; when from far away, after spinning my wheels on wet rubble thinking it would take me way toooooooo long to get over there - I decided to whip the toy into where the dog was alerting( at his nose). The dog totally ignored the tug I threw in which hit him and continued barking for the victim to engage. (I was practicing handler reward in lieu of this weekend  when I got there I opened the hole and handed the tug in- happy dog- _
> 
> _How do you prevent the build up of drive to access into the victim to make contact for the game ? I'm careful that we always reward on barks (not digs) but he has gotting more intense to get in - Txs !_
> 
> 
> 
> _...oops... I didnt separate that quote above properly so I posted it again w/ italics........_
Click to expand...


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## Jennifer Coulter

Bob Scott said:


> Jennifer, I've always looked for a dog that enjoys interaction with people. A natural willingness to retrieve is always a high priority with me for any dog I would select. That goes for straight obedience, SAR or any dog activity.
> If a dog is rewarded with just possession of a tug/toy/etc that can be worked with but I still prefer a dog that looks at the toy as the beginning of the reward WITH the "victim" or the handler. that's just my individual choice.
> You say that "he just wants to do whater he has to to get the tug game going".
> IMHO he's doing what I look for. I've seen a number of dogs that aren't necessarily interested in different people but will gladly bring a stranger a tug if they know they can get a game out of it. I don't now if it's necessarily a social thing, just a drive to bring the toy for the fun of the game.
> Now, the extreme of this would be a dog that can't/won't make decisions without the handler. That can be the dog or a training issue.


I agree with your choice of dog Bob. My particular dog right now could care less about strangers....unless they are burried in the snow! ( or hiding behind a tree....you get the idea) He might take a step out of the way if you try to pet him (he does this to me even), but he will tug with anyone!

I do sometimes hear people say that their dog's search drive comes from their love of people. Not the case for my dog. Not that he doesn't like people, just not snuggly (much to my dismay), doesn't want to be loved up, doesn't consider petting a reward...but a good ragging session...bring it on! If you let go of the rag he just shoves it back to you for more tugs (okay sometimes he will give it a death shake first). If that = liking human interaction than indeed he does! Just not how some poeple think of it.


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## Bob Scott

He just needs people for his benifit. That's not a bad thing for SAR work if his "benifit" is the desire to play the game and he has a good "search drive" 
I've never looked at "search drive" /hunt drive as anything connected with people. It's just a high level drive/need to find what it's looking for. (natural genetic enhanced by breeding). Some dogs may have a strong search drive but when they find the toy, it's all theirs. No interest to play. That could be worked with, just not my choice.
My older GSD will fall over dead before he stops looking for his tug. My younger dog looses interest within 3-4 mins. He has average hunt drive and not much interested in a tug game unless he feels the pressure of "fighting" for the tug. He doesn't enjoy the game unless we get very physical/animated with him.
He'll do anything for bite work with. He'd never be a SAR dog but I've got big hopes for bite sports. 
ps
I didn't choose my younger GSD. I wanted a male and the breeder kept one of two in the litter. I still wanted one out of this litter. Just needs a different aproach to work him.


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## Konnie Hein

Rose:
I like a dog that does a 2 part reward - digging and barking. Of course, we need the barking to be solid, so it's just a matter of percentages. You need to work more problems where the dog can't access/see the helper (a well-reinforced hiding place), and also have the helper reward initially after only one bark. Thereafter, the reward should only come on a bark.


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## Konnie Hein

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I do sometimes hear people say that their dog's search drive comes from their love of people.


I wonder how long their desire to search would hold up, especially in adverse conditions, if it is just based on a love of people.

Thinking about it, and perhaps it is just a coincidence, but the dogs I have been most impressed by in SAR were not what I would describe as "loving people" or overly social for that matter.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Konnie Hein said:


> I wonder how long their desire to search would hold up, especially in adverse conditions, if it is just based on a love of people.


I don't think very long either. I have also seen someone say that about a very good dog, and I think they just unclear on what is really driving /motivating their dog. They are just so used to anthromorphisizing their animal.



Konnie Hein said:


> Thinking about it, and perhaps it is just a coincidence, but the dogs I have been most impressed by in SAR were not what I would describe as "loving people" or overly social for that matter.


Interesting to hear you say that.


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## Anna Kasho

Jennifer Coulter said:


> If you let go of the rag he just shoves it back to you for more tugs (okay sometimes he will give it a death shake first). If that = liking human interaction than indeed he does! Just not how some poeple think of it.


That is kinda what I meant... Play tug with either of my mals and let him win, or throw a ball - he comes running back to shove it at you for another game. Do the same with one of my GSDs (the better-wired-for-searching one of them), after he "wins" he wants to go off and shred the tug or ball on his own. 

Perhaps #2 could be trained and would work quite well, but I would prefer #1 who enjoys this kind of interaction over and over and over...


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## Konnie Hein

Anna Kasho said:


> Perhaps #2 could be trained and would work quite well, but I would prefer #1 who enjoys this kind of interaction over and over and over...


Same here!


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## Tom Moorcroft

I'm the guy who almost got bit by his dog in the video. I love me dog!



> I'm careful that we always reward on barks (not digs) but he has gotting more intense to get in - Txs !


Digs indicate frustrated drive. As we teach them, barks indicate frustrated drive. Frustration intensifies drive. So, while digging is not the indication of choice for USAR work, when a dog who has been well trained to give a bark alert for live human scent starts barking AND digging, now there's no doubt he's found someone.

As far as preventing the build up of drive for the dog to get to the person, I always want my dog performing at the highest levels of his drive. His entire life is focused on only one thing - finding and alerting on concealed live human scent. Achieving a solid bark alert without having excavation become the dog's primary concern is a matter shaping the behavior. If we have selected a dog with the right level of drive for this work, this should not be a problem. This goes back to one of Konnie's previous quotes:

"Dogs with high drive and attraction to work are jewels - they do not need commands and do not respond well to commands - they only need to be directed to bring out the best in them."
--Manfred Heyne


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## Melody Greba

Great use of youtube as a way to get the info out, and you (Konnie), Elizabeth, Tom, Janet and Gail (they helped with that weekend too, right?).... the quality of SAR dogs will increase, I think. 

Alot of the Randy Hare training, seems closely related to our hold & bark at the blind in sportwork. If a dog is intense on the helper(the source), regardless of distraction, then his focus is rewarded with the greatest of rewards-fight drive. 
The shell game has certain roots to narcotics trainers with their cinder blocks and boxes.

So many things has correlation. Great information guys, great for wildnerness groups, avalanche teams, etc.!!! .... odor work is odor work......regardless the odor.


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## Konnie Hein

Melody Greba said:


> So many things has correlation. Great information guys, great for wildnerness groups, avalanche teams, etc.!!! .... odor work is odor work......regardless the odor.


Thanks! When Elizabeth and I saw Randy's seminar, we knew there were so many things we could apply to our training. We worked hard to come up with a way to transfer his method to USAR, and it has really paid off. My state team (CTTF-1) and I (including Tom, who posted above and is absolutely invaluable to our team) put the plan into action and were pleasantly surprised at the results.


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## Howard Knauf

Hi Konnie,

I'm a little late here due to restricted internet access the last 10 days. Kudos on the good work and Tom's dog. Very impressive.

Howard


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## Konnie Hein

Thanks, Howard!!!

If anybody is interested in learning more about this method, I recommend this article from The Police K9 Magazine. 
http://www.randyhare.com/rewarding_final.pdf

The cool thing about the article is that it is accompanied by several videos, so not only can you read about it, you can see it in action. Although Randy uses specialized boxes and we use barrels, the concept is the same. A lot of these concepts are nothing new, but they way they've been applied to detection is remarkable.


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## Melody Greba

Ok. I can't find how to open up the videos from the article that you provided a link for? Have you opened the videos from the pdf article?
If so, can you show me where?


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## Jennifer Michelson

Wow, I am awfully impressed that Tom still has fingers after that exercise!!!!! I dont think I will be trying the "pull the dog back" part of it with Griffin tho.......

Nice video Konnie and Tom. Looks like a lot of fun!!! I wish Ct was a lot closer, I'd like to do more of that work with you guys......

I will also concur--these dogs dont work for the love of us people, they want the game and their toy. They want that interaction with the helper. Because Griff gets a little pissed if I make him release his tug as I pull him back from the barrel for a second go, I let him carry it away. As soon as he realizes that the helper is still in the barrel (or hidden anywhere), he drops the tug he has and focuses on where he thinks the helper is. For him it is not really the toy, but the game.


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## Konnie Hein

Melody Greba said:


> Ok. I can't find how to open up the videos from the article that you provided a link for? Have you opened the videos from the pdf article?
> If so, can you show me where?


Within the article is the internet address, or you can click this link:
http://www.randyhare.com/pk9mag/videolink.htm

It will take you to a page with all 7 videos relevant to the article.


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## Bob Scott

In seeing Konnie's and all the other videos it makes me realize how much I enjoyed scent detection work over most any other dog activity I've done. 
Just can't handle the egos and "experts" that run the teams in this area.


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## Konnie Hein

Well, there's a simple solution to that, Bob. You can move to Connecticut - we'd love to have you!


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## Bob Scott

I may be past my prime but I'm still a great "victim". I can curl up and sleep for hours in just about any hole, rubble pile, tree, abandoned building, patch of woods you can stick me in. :lol: 
Move away from the g-kids? :-o ...........Heaven forbid I would even suggest that to "Gam". :lol: :lol: [-X


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## Jennifer Coulter

Bob Scott said:


> I may be past my prime but I'm still a great "victim". I can curl up and sleep for hours in just about any hole, rubble pile, tree, abandoned building, patch of woods you can stick me in. :lol:


I am sure that "snowcave" was a simple oversight in your above list.  



Bob Scott said:


> In seeing Konnie's and all the other videos it makes me realize how much I enjoyed scent detection work over most any other dog activity I've done.
> Just can't handle the egos and "experts" that run the teams in this area.


Seems to me that this is a big loss for the SAR communtity. And poor Thunder being subjected to FST


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## Bob Scott

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I am sure that "snowcave" was a simple oversight in your above list.
> 
> The "snowcave" would probably be quite comfortable........ :-o then ya gotta get out in the frickin cold air. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to me that this is a big loss for the SAR communtity. And poor Thunder being subjected to FST


 
There were a lot of folks that were upset by my leaving SAR. (because of Thunder mostly :grin: )
I selected Thunder specificly for that and he was/is wonderful. It was just to hard to work under "experts" that had dogs trained by someone else yet introduced themselves as Master dog trainers. 
Don't get me started!! :evil: :lol: 
The good news is that it truely shows the GSD's versatility. Thunder has never let me down with anything I've asked of him. Scentwork, Schutzhund, AKC OB and soon to be herding. (dock diving was less then impressive). :lol:  :lol:
Speaking of FST, if I screw up this Saturday going for my III it will be on me. Definately not on one fantastic dog.
Did I ever mention that I have no use for FST? :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Phil Dodson

> My feelings are hurt over that last comment Bob??!


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## Bob Scott

Phil Dodson said:


> > My feelings are hurt over that last comment Bob??!


Ok, I'll take it back :razz: . It can be used as a foundation for real scent work. IF that were the reason for teaching it, I'd be all for it! 
When my dog air scents an "article" from 100 ft away then looks at me like "WTF! Why do I have to keep following these foot steps when I know right where it is"? Dumb, dumb, dumb! 
Living in the real world as you do, would you want to insist your dog follows footsteps even if the badguy has doubled back around behind you and the dog has picked up on that? :-o 
FST is my least fav way of doing scent work. 
More PC?


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