# When is a dog not held responsible for a bite?



## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

At what point does the law say - the dog was provoked to bite and it is not the dog's fault?????
I was working on Bella's back run today, making it more private and taller. A neighbors daughter came up and told me that when I have had Bella out in her run, some neighboring boys have been sneaking up and jumping out at her and making growly noises and stuff on the other side of the fence. I already told the SPCA about. But if I can't stop these kids and Bella gets defensive enough and god forbid she ever grows up and gets out when they do this, what defence if any does the dog have.
I know that as the owner, I am to make sure the dog does not escape, but we are talking about provoking the dog to attack on defense, any opinions about this type of problem. If I could I would grab the kid and drag them around the ground for a while and then explain that that dragging is nothing compared to what the adult dog may do to them if they keep it up - but I'm not allowed to do that by LAW. Kids get protected and a dog does not :x :x :x


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You should CYA by calling and making a police report, and not just the SPCA. Your ahead of the game if they know a problem exists.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Hey Bob, that's a good idea.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

If you know who the kids are, go see the parents,

AL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> If you know who the kids are, go see the parents,
> 
> AL


Another excellent idea.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Al, that was the first thing I did. It's a single mom with a narcotic dealing teen, a smartmouthed younger teen daughter and a brat 12 year old boy (the one who is doing it). Well mom herself is a non-caring you know what, so I don't expect her to play any role in telling her kid off.
But good idea, thanks.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

www.Municode.com

See if you can find statutes for your state/county/city, there's a bunch of stuff about dogs for my county.


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Video-tape the kids doing this first of all; send a certified letter to Mom advising her of the kids' bad behavior and fill out a police report. Then you are covered every which way. Here in OK, our "dangerous dog" law specifies that a dog cannot be deemed a DD if it was acting to protect itself, its owner or was harrassed/provoked.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Thanks, all good ideas. I'm going to the pound tomorrow to find out what the exact bylaws for our area are. And show them a photo of my dog run. If they don't deem it completely adequate, I will improve it also. That kid is not going to ruin my dog. And I will very much try and get a photo of the kids doing this. I have a completely blocked off area, where I can sit and wait.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Keep the dog in the house.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Jeff, I'm guessing that you mean keep her in the house to prevent her being subjected to these brats during her fear period?????


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff, I'm guessing that you mean keep her in the house to prevent her being subjected to these brats during her fear period?????

During all periods.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Jeff, I don't want to sound like an idiot. But I am not 100% sure of why I would keep her in at all periods of time. Please explain.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Liz, be patient with Jeff. He belongs to an order of cloistured monks who think seclusion is the answer to everything in life. :lol:


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Bob, I know with that reply Jeff will soon tell me. :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Sometimes though, I wish I had some seclusion myself. Oh, by the way Jeff, I see that you do Mondio, that's great, I did a bit with Anni it is a great sport/work experience. She loved it, way more interesting to her than some of the other things. I didn't continue because she was determined to be a good search dog and she was very prone to naturally do bite work, so we only let her do a bit to see her potential in her lines and just because I keep getting drawn to it. Anni also did a bit of Sch. too. This new pup will never have Anni's build and speed, so she is not likely to see all the fun stuff of Mondio. I miss my Anni, everyone called her the Malinois in a GSD's body or the Queen.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Maybe put up a fence so the dog never gets teased...

I'd never put my dog in a situation where he can feel threatened like that. If that means keeping him in the house. Sure the kids are at fault, but it's like saying it's not your fault it rains, but you gotta put a roof over your head kind of thing. I don't like the idea of having a dog who thinks everything that passes by the house is a threat.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Hi Lyn, I started on the fence earlier tonight. In the morning I am hoping to have it finished completely. What it is, is a roughly 20 X 10 foot run that is off of our back door. It was only fenced in with her being able to see everything outside of it. It is not a run with a roof, it is just for her to relieve herself and do some fun running around when I have not gotten her out for hikes or walks. It has it's own relief area boarded off with stones (large stones) on one end of it. She is already trained to use that one spot when out there. I can see her right through the door glass (runs the whole length of the door) and through the living room windows. But I did not see these kids doing this. So earlier tonight, I went out and bought some "HIgh Privacy Extra Thick Lattice and placed that over the original fence boards. Then I placed tall steel bars on either side of the lattice to strengthen it even more. Then just to be nice to the neighbors, I bought a ton of green garland and wove it through the tops to make it look prettier for them. Actually it looks pretty attractive, lol. But I still have to make a whole new gate that leads to the back of the property. Our property is not wholly fenced in, the area we live in is not allowing it. We adjoin in much of the area with a golf course and some overly expensive houses, we have the poor house, lol. I hated to do this to her, I wanted her to see kids and people and be able to see the street, cars, and bunnies and stuff that are all around here, but not now. It's becoming her little fortress.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Liz call the police and get a report filed. Do this everytime you see or hear of the boy doing this to your dog. If the kid is coming in your yard the police can MAKE his mother control her kid. If he is not and doing it from outside of your yard, the police can stil control the situation. But they have to know about it. Also turn the drug dealer in, cops love it when cases are handed to them with little to no leg work involved.

If you do these things and cover your behind you will be less likely to be help totally liable for any damage your dog does to people or property. Most courts will side with the dog if a history of abuse has been shown from the victim (the boy). It will clear you of liablity in the courts eyes. Now if the mom sues after that you can be found guilty only if the was not contained at the time of the incident, if your dogs was out side of its pen and unattended, or if your dog was off leash in a public place when the incident accured. Make sure you are good in all these areas and you should be covered.

Or get a eletric fence hooked up to your back fence to it "corrects" the kid when he comes by it. :twisted:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Jeff, I don't want to sound like an idiot. But I am not 100% sure of why I would keep her in at all periods of time. Please explain.


I'm with Jeff, if you think anyone is provoking your dog, I'm not sure why I'd keep her outside. She can crate up if you're not home (and if you are home). If I remember correctly this is a young dog, if you cannot control the situation with the kids, keep the dog away from them. The dog would rather hang out with you, anyway.

I think Matt Hammond and others are giving you sound advice. I would point out that an additional, simple step is to just crate up the dog in your house and not let it out unsupervised. Problem solved and more bonding time for you and your young pup. I'd do much of what the others are suggesting but those actions aren't going to help if one instance of harassment ruins your dog's social development.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I cannot say strongly enough how much I agree with Jeff and Woody, as scary as that is.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> ......... I'd never put my dog in a situation where he can feel threatened like that. If that means keeping him in the house. ...


What she said!


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Woody and Matt, thanks for the advice, it's good.
Matt, the police have arrested this older teen on a number of occasions. He was charged with forgery at a bank, charged with car theft, and charged with home invasion and theft. They have been there so many times and even smelled the weed. I don't know why the whole family has not been thrown in jail or why the youngest boy is not taken away to foster care. The mother smokes and deals also, she buys for herself, her friends and her own son. Or he buys and they split it and sell it and keep some of it. I just don't understand what is going on with the police here in this situation??????

Woody, I would never ever leave any dog out in this run if I was not present in the home and close to the window. These kids cut through our back property and have been told a number of times NOT TO. The mother couldn't care less, sometimes the young one is out after 10 at night and found climbing trees or on peoples roof's. We have a church infront of us and he climbs on their roof. The church has sent notices to the family also. The only time the pup is out there is when I am watching her. But I was not able to notice when the kid went by that this was happening. And not able to see him do this at night when it was dark and I thought the pup was just giving a little bark or two at a bunny or something. Now I know it is the kid.

Where we used to live, we had a big house and I put up a 7 foot fence around the perimiter, wood on all but the back which was wire fencing. And the dog run I built backed onto the wooden fence close to our back door. It had a roof and dog houses and housed two dogs at a time. Them I would leave alone outside when not in the house. For many reasons, fresh air, room to run and play, etc.
This pup does not have the luxurey of the same set-up. The City SPCA is dropping over to their home today and giving them a first notice of a reported dog harrassment. I am very lucky that the pound knows me well. I have fostered many dogs and cats in the past five years. And they know I used to work with GSD.s and never had a complaint in all the years about them. So they are working with me on this. About 8 years ago, I had to be a witness at court for them against a lady who let two Rottweilers get loose regularly. They would get out of their fence and bite, maul people, pets. The courts were hard on her. Which is good.
Woody, you are right though, one bad experience can damage the puppy, right now the kid has not accomplished that YET, I intend for it not to happen. She will only be out there when I am standing there outside with her. She loves it when I'm there anyway.
Matt, the pound told me that each and every harrassment claim against this boy or other kids is very very sufficient in the courts eyes, so I am sticking with them as opposed to the police. Sometimes, when a neighbor makes to many complaints to police, they actually black-ball themselves. It's very sad, but it can happen. But, I think I'm going to focus a bit more on the drug dealing issue, lol. I know you are in law enforcement, so I don't mean to imply that the police always do this. I just mean that if some people are constantly calling them, some individual cops call it "the crazy lady" thing, and sometimes they are right :lol:


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