# How many (baby) steps of equipemt?



## Marina Schmidt

You know there's so much equipment for bite development on the market. I wondered how many steps you're using (I know it also depends on the dog, but let's assume an average dog here). Do just go leather rag - bite pillow - some bite pillow/sleeve combi - young dog sleeve - trial sleeve. Or do take baby steps like lather rag - soft bite pillow - hard bite pillow - soft combi - hard combi - young sleeve - medium sleeve - trial sleeve. Because some people say baby steps must been taken, others say it's not really necessary unless the dog clearly has it's problems with one step.


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## Joby Becker

I'm no expert, but here's my .02

"Baby steps" should be taken, the dog determines how the baby steps progress.

There should be a definite progression, but that progression can look very different from dog to dog. 

Really depends on the goals, targets, etc..


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## Anne Vaini

Depends on the dog. I've had some that needed super-teeny-tiny baby steps. Those dogs didn't amount to much for bitework.

My last bitework dog went from fuzzy stuffed animal to the suit directly. She's pretty neat dog though.


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## Mike Scheiber

Like Joby said depends on the pup I like a jute rag on a string or leather what ever the pup prefers move up to sausages pillows small little puppy sleeves your helpers or club if you have one should have a pile of puppy/adolescent stuff most doesn't seem to get worn out much.
I know you didn't ask but I like to leave my pups bite development up to my helpers.


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## Thomas Barriano

Marina Schmidt said:


> You know there's so much equipment for bite development on the market. I wondered how many steps you're using (I know it also depends on the dog, but let's assume an average dog here). Do just go leather rag - bite pillow - some bite pillow/sleeve combi - young dog sleeve - trial sleeve. Or do take baby steps like lather rag - soft bite pillow - hard bite pillow - soft combi - hard combi - young sleeve - medium sleeve - trial sleeve. Because some people say baby steps must been taken, others say it's not really necessary unless the dog clearly has it's problems with one step.




Hi Marina,

I start training all my puppies with a burlap sack and a beer can distraction. At one year they go straight to a trial sleeve AND bite suit. If the dog doesn't bite the trial sleeve the first time he sees it, he gets sold VBG


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## Howard Gaines III

Coming from a teacher's view point and all; steps are used for a reason. To skip some steps might cause an issue down the road. These's nothing better than time...

We use the leather rag/Leerburg stuff, a 2' leather puppy tug, a soft puppy sleeve that Jim Hill use to sell years ago, then the introductory sleeve, and a trial sleeve. We also do leg bites at the same time and watch the puppy when the stick is used to stroke the sides of the critter. 

Too much handler pressure and too much decoy defense can cause more issues than skipping intro bite steps. I'm a big fan of verbal praise and slip & wins with young dogs.

Why do they put so many steps on a stepladder? Easy answer, so you don't bust yer...K-9 steps are there for a reason as well. Love the question...


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Marina,
> 
> I start training all my puppies with a burlap sack and a beer can distraction. At one year they go straight to a trial sleeve AND bite suit. If the dog doesn't bite the trial sleeve the first time he sees it, he gets sold VBG


 I like to hide the dog in my basement until 18 months, never let anyone pet him, have my friends beat the dog up, then take him to a dark alley in chicago and see if he will bite a combative bum with no equipment on, if not he ain't no good as a PP dog....
LOL

Joby


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> I like to hide the dog in my basement until 18 months, never let anyone pet him, have my friends beat the dog up, then take him to a dark alley in chicago and see if he will bite a combative bum with no equipment on, if not he ain't no good as a PP dog....
> LOL
> 
> Joby



Joby,

I'd like to give your method a try, but I don't have any friends to beat my puppies and there aren't too many dark alleys in Colorado Springs :-(
Can I get strangers to beat him and then go to the camp ground along the creek and find a combative drunk? LOL


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> I'd like to give your method a try, but I don't have any friends to beat my puppies and there aren't too many dark alleys in Colorado Springs :-(
> Can I get strangers to beat him and then go to the camp ground along the creek and find a combative drunk? LOL


You might have to come to Chicagoland and pay to have strangers beat him..but sounds like it could work...
joby


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## David Frost

For me, if it takes more than a tug, puppy sleeve to trial sleeve, I've selected the wrong dog. 

DFrost


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## Adam Rawlings

With my pup it was the burlap sack for a month, then a tug for a couple of weeks, a couple of weeks on the sleeve and on to the suit (20 weeks old). I'm sure every dog is different, but this is what I see in solid working pups at training. I still use the tug for fun and grip building.


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## Harry Keely

I personally like to put a leather rag or burlap bag at the end of a horse whip ( more reach and more action ) plus it adds a little extra frustration with a pup. Very rarely let them get it but when they do they will grab it alot better and not want to let go. Then move to a tug or pup sleeve after that and eventually progress to hit the suit which we progress in to a hidden sleeve and if it doesn't go that way then like david said. " I have picked the wrong dog".


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> I like to hide the dog in my basement until 18 months, never let anyone pet him, have my friends beat the dog up, then take him to a dark alley in chicago and see if he will bite a combative bum with no equipment on, if not he ain't no good as a PP dog....
> LOL
> 
> Joby


Ya know, I hear you can do that with them Dutchies. :-$


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Ya know, I hear you can do that with them Dutchies. :-$


No SHHH it's the Pitbulls that work best for this...At least thats what I HEAR...


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## Gillian Schuler

There sure be something in that statement!


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## Geoff Empey

Adam Rawlings said:


> With my pup it was the burlap sack for a month, then a tug for a couple of weeks, a couple of weeks on the sleeve and on to the suit (20 weeks old). I'm sure every dog is different, but this is what I see in solid working pups at training. I still use the tug for fun and grip building.


I'd have to agree with this statement as well as David's and Howard's. 

Using a rag or chamois on a pup is supposed to be fun as well as a soft sleeve then on to the trial sleeve or suit, all along like Howard stated building the young dog's confidence. 

I'm not a fan of the flirt pole or horse whip etc to move a prey item as there is just to much action there. You can spend a lot of time on a young dog with that flirt pole so that looks like a monster and then when you move up to a sleeve/whatever the dogs looks like it is dead. 

If you have to do a lot of drive building with all sorts of B.S toys to get the dog to give you the required behaviour ... you got the wrong dog.


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## Keith Jenkins

Might add that when introducing a new exercise/scenario taking a step down in the current equipment.


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## Debbie Skinner

This is the equipment that we use: 0-3 cuffs and then also pants w/cuffs and pants with cuffs. With the little bitty pups we use a rag.


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## Gillian Schuler

David Frost said:


> For me, if it takes more than a tug, puppy sleeve to trial sleeve, I've selected the wrong dog.
> 
> DFrost


There sure be something in that statement!!


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## Debbie Skinner

Here are photos of the dogs using the equipment. This progression is to get them ready of a Belgian suit not a French suit or sleeve. Many dogs don't make it all the way to the Belgian suit.


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## Candy Eggert

Debbie Skinner said:


> This is the equipment that we use: 0-3 cuffs and then also pants w/cuffs and pants with cuffs. With the little bitty pups we use a rag.


Hi Deb,

I really like the stuffed ducky ;-) Should be an important part of any dog trainer's bag of tricks!! And the fact that Ron's pants stand on their own is scary 

Seriously are the cuffs, leg sleeves etc imported, or available in the US?


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## Debbie Skinner

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Deb,
> 
> I really like the stuffed ducky ;-) Should be an important part of any dog trainer's bag of tricks!! And the fact that Ron's pants stand on their own is scary
> 
> Seriously are the cuffs, leg sleeves etc imported, or available in the US?


Everything is from Belgium except for the duck! :lol: I haven't looked in the USA though. And those aren't even the thickest pants as Ron has the full Belgian suit on his "wish list". I said lets see if the US$ gets stronger first as the Euro is killing us when purchasing over there right now.


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## andreas broqvist

From what company is the Cuffs / Legsleeves. Looks nice. I think I wuld like some of them.


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## Debbie Skinner

andreas broqvist said:


> From what company is the Cuffs / Legsleeves. Looks nice. I think I wuld like some of them.


Freddy Persichetti. I am looking for his contact info. He has some dogs listed on www.WorkingDog.eu 
but I'm not finding his email or tel#. He's in Belgium and makes really nice stuff. However, he doesn't ship and buyers must pick up the equipment at his place. Maybe also try the www.nvbk.org site under litters for contact information as he plays in the NVBK.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/34123/H'Uno-LOSH-1036967-(Persichetti)


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## Debbie Skinner

andreas broqvist said:


> From what company is the Cuffs / Legsleeves. Looks nice. I think I wuld like some of them.


Freddy's # 049 5807468 He speaks fluent French, Italian, a little Flemish and not English.


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## andreas broqvist

Ok thanks. I will trye to cal him.
Do you have any prices for the gear befor I cal him. You can Pm me if you have the time.
Have a nice day


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

the path here: Rag on a string - tug(s) - he destroys them fast, - bite "wedge", not too long - softer sleeve, not too long - trial sleeve.



Marina Schmidt said:


> You know there's so much equipment for bite development on the market. I wondered how many steps you're using (I know it also depends on the dog, but let's assume an average dog here). Do just go leather rag - bite pillow - some bite pillow/sleeve combi - young dog sleeve - trial sleeve. Or do take baby steps like lather rag - soft bite pillow - hard bite pillow - soft combi - hard combi - young sleeve - medium sleeve - trial sleeve. Because some people say baby steps must been taken, others say it's not really necessary unless the dog clearly has it's problems with one step.


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## Faisal Khan

David Frost said:


> For me, if it takes more than a tug, puppy sleeve to trial sleeve, I've selected the wrong dog.
> 
> DFrost


Our club works on the same philosophy, rag work, stick work, pup sleeve, trial sleeve.


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## Geoff Empey

Debbie Skinner said:


> Freddy's # 049 5807468 He speaks fluent French, Italian, a little Flemish and not English.


Deb .. is this the maker of the "Freddy" suit? Like this one?


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## Howard Gaines III

Geoff ya'll use a stick to beat that little dawg with to make him tough? LOL Or to chase him away from them there church clothes?


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## Geoff Empey

Howard Gaines III said:


> Geoff ya'll use a stick to beat that little dawg with to make him tough? LOL Or to chase him away from them there church clothes?


Ask that to the 3 trail decoys my little 48lb bitch flattened this year then. :lol:


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## Howard Gaines III

Geoff Empey said:


> Ask that to the 3 trail decoys my little 48lb bitch flattened this year then. :lol:


 I love it!!! And some think that females can't bring it on. No video for ME!!!


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## Geoff Empey

Howard Gaines III said:


> I love it!!! And some think that females can't bring it on. No video for ME!!!


What were your scores this year trailing Howard?


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## Geoff Empey

Debbie Skinner said:


> Freddy Persichetti. I am looking for his contact info. He has some dogs listed on www.WorkingDog.eu
> but I'm not finding his email or tel#. He's in Belgium and makes really nice stuff. However, he doesn't ship and buyers must pick up the equipment at his place. Maybe also try the www.nvbk.org site under litters for contact information as he plays in the NVBK.
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/34123/H'Uno-LOSH-1036967-(Persichetti)


This him Debbie? 

http://www.costumesfreddy.com/home.htm


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## Howard Gaines III

Geoff Empey said:


> What were your scores this year trailing Howard?


 Sorry we no longer train for the dark side, not after the "fun" in Schutzhund. Maybe some day...


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## Debbie Skinner

Geoff Empey said:


> This him Debbie?
> 
> http://www.costumesfreddy.com/home.htm


That's the other Freddy. We've bought stuff from him before too. It's been awhile though.


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## Debbie Skinner

Geoff Empey said:


> This him Debbie?
> 
> http://www.costumesfreddy.com/home.htm


Freddy Vianne first manufactured suits under the name "Monique" the name of his wife. However, when he changed wives, he changed the name to Freddy. Smart Man!

BTW, he also bred some very nice malinois including a female that I owned for a short time (bred once) name "Quilly". Oringally imported by Gary D'Hue.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/75457/Quilly-du-Moulin-de-Tombroek 

I believe when he moved a lot of his stock was purchased by Luc @ 2 Pottois.


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## Geoff Empey

All these Freddy's from Belgium making suits! Thanks for the info Debbie!


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## Debbie Skinner

Geoff Empey said:


> All these Freddy's from Belgium making suits! Thanks for the info Debbie!



Here is Ron wearing an old "Monique" suit back in the 1990s working Eureka, FRIII, your bitches great grandmother. 

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2215/Eureka-du-Rez-la-Ville


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## steve davis

David Frost said:


> For me, if it takes more than a tug, puppy sleeve to trial sleeve, I've selected the wrong dog.
> 
> DFrost


 
thats no shit. we had a dobie come to our club that had to have a squeeky ball put into a puppy rag. talk about wanting to laugh your ass off.

equipment we use in "baby steps"

tug or puppy rag

bite pillow

puppy sleeve

trial sleeve

suit

but if im looking for a dog, i want a dog thats gonna come into the room and bite anything. i dont want to have to bring the dog out, i'd rather have to push it back. you also have to make sure that the bite foundation is done correctly.


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## Marina Schmidt

One more question. As for German Schutzhund sleeves there are only 3 sleeves: Puppy - young dog - trial (I know some manufactures offer more steps but usually it's just the three). I mentioned that when it comes to ring sleeves there are always 2-3 levels of puppy arms, 2-3 of young and 2-3 adult until the dog comes finally on the suit. What's the reason for it? Is it harder to progress to the bite suit or do the ring people put "more effort" into the bite development?


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