# Malinois and Mondioring



## Eraclis Eracleous (Sep 14, 2010)

I would like to hear,especially from trainers,what makes the belgian Malinois,not just the king of the ring sports in general,but almost the only dog who can compete successfully in 3rd category of mondioring. What specific traits of the breed makes it more successfull especially in comparison with good working German shepherds and Dobermans.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Eraclis Eracleous said:


> I would like to hear,especially from trainers,what makes the belgian Malinois,not just the king of the ring sports in general,but almost the only dog who can compete successfully in 3rd category of mondioring. What specific traits of the breed makes it more successfull especially in comparison with good working German shepherds and Dobermans.


Are you asking for some sort of explanation or schooling of the three breeds you mentioned or are you trying to decide on trying a alternate breed for Mondio.
Any way I'm a Schutzhund guy so your question don't matter in my world.


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

You send your GSD down field and he thinks to himself: Ok, I'm going to run down field as fast as I can and bite this guy, now im going to jump up at him and put him in my mouth. 

You send your Mali down field and he thinks to himself: I want to bite him, (you hear a loud crash) Cool! I'm biting this guy!

Just my interpretation of the difference between the two breeds.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Eraclis, 

Where are you from?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The Mal has a gene that turns dog food, ANY dog food, into crack! :grin::grin::grin:
Although I do like Jonathan's interpretation also. :wink:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Eraclis Eracleous said:


> I would like to hear,especially from trainers,what makes the belgian Malinois,not just the king of the ring sports in general,but almost the only dog who can compete successfully in 3rd category of mondioring. What specific traits of the breed makes it more successfull especially in comparison with good working German shepherds and Dobermans.


A lot of people that have GSDs or Dobies are also following the German breeding schemes. And part of that is a emphasis on schutzhund. If your GSD or Dobie only has a mondio title he can't be shown in the working class in conformation or pass a breed test.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Um....where did the rest of my post go? I asked about the same question as Mike S did and that is not there. Weird.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> Eraclis,
> 
> Where are you from?


I think the intro from Eraclis said from Cyprus.


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

There have been some recent German Shepherd champions in Ring 3 Ringsport. 

We currently compete with GSD's in Mondioring...try it!


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Malinois have more drive to bite than GSD's. They bounce back quicker from a set back and are faster and more agile.

Here's a bit of an interview with a famous GSD breeder Gerrard van Es. He owned the Haus Antverpa kennels and trained a number of famous GSD's incl Gento to a KNPV title. He also trained and bred Malinois.


*DSM:* *Gerrard, you breed many great dogs for many sports, but which is your favourite?*
*ES:* KNPV is my favourite sport. It is much more real training than, say, Schutzhund or IPO. It has many more exercises and it takes much longer to train dogs for this. The training is much more real. It is more suited to police and street work. But it is a sport that is not suited for every dog. The intention of this KNPV is different than that of Schutzhund. Most people that has a dog that will work a little can work in the sport of Schutzhund or IPO at some level. Most KNPV dogs are sold to the army or police. Most Malinios are in KNPV. This is not to say that all Malinois are good for KNPV, but certainly more Malinois than German Shepherds.

*DSM:* *Why are there not more German Shepherds in KNPV?*
*ES: *In KNPV, you must teach them a few things that are hard sometimes to explain to the dogs. The dog must stay with it's handler without any leash. He must work on his own. Some of the exercises are very hard and you cannot teach him these exercises by giving him cookies. Sometimes you must be hard with the dog to teach him this work, but in the end you have a marvellous working animal. The call off is very hard. In German Shepherds, sometimes this is very hard to do because you must bring the drive down and the Shepherd sometimes cannot bring his drives high again like the Malinois.

This kinda gives you a bit of an idea.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The call off is very hard. In German Shepherds, sometimes this is very hard to do because you must bring the drive down and the Shepherd sometimes cannot bring his drives high again like the Malinois.

Or, you are training it like the dog is a Mal. : )

It is the GSD's thresholds that cause many problems, like this one. That whole "on off " switch which many GSD people adore so, is actually the exact thing that makes the dogs have problems.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

The fundamental reason for the success of the Malinois is that he is
bred only for the work, no other considerations confuse or detract
from breeding selection.

The Doberman, Bouvier, Boxer etc have been lost as working dogs
because of the control and influence of the show breeders and the
fact that the working people did not have the internal courage and
wisdom to resist this control and watering down.

It pains me greatly to have to say it, but the German Shepherd
is being watered down because Schutzhund and IPO have over the
past thirty years been incessantly watered down, and the rules and
discipline is now under the thumb of the show breeding community
of the FCI.

In Germany the SV has become a two breed club, one breed being
the noble German Shepherd of the founders. But the other breed of
the SV, the new favorite son, is the Martin Shepherd. And Schutzhund
has been incessantly weakened and watered down so that these
Martin shepherds can pass and go on to show ring glory.

In America USCA is increasingly under the control of the Martin
shepherd boys, such as Johannes Grewe.

I have participated in Schutzhund for some thirty years now, and
it is very painful for me to say these things.

But ultimately a man is measured by his ability to face up
to the truth, no matter how painful and unpleasant it is.


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

So....many GSD's and a few Doberman's have been trialed in FR3 and MR3. Some GSD's have won the overall Cups or Championships - I don't know about Dobermans. 

It is amusing to show up to clubs and have GSD's treated as second class citizens; while a Mal may be "better" for Ringsport given the current state of the breed, some of us with GSD's don't enough room and time, money and room in our households for a token Mali.

We've seen enough Roachbacks to last us a lifetime. You're right - the AKC contributing to the demise of the breed really, really sucks.

Ringsport may be a tough road to hoe with GSD's, but we're committed to our dogs, the breed, and the sport. Try it! We're trying to get our dogs well titled in the sport, possibly breed them, and improve the quality of the breed by finding good dogmates to get our dogs together with, and proving that even for newbies like us, we can succeed in the sport.


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## Eraclis Eracleous (Sep 14, 2010)

I live in Cyprus,an island in eastern meditteranean sea


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## Eraclis Eracleous (Sep 14, 2010)

My impression watching different dogs in ring sports,is that the Mals enjoy the sport more than any other breed. If they really like what they are doing out there it might be another reason why they ecxell in the sport.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> Ringsport may be a tough road to hoe with GSD's, but we're committed to our dogs, the breed, and the sport. Try it! We're trying to get our dogs well titled in the sport, possibly breed them, and improve the quality of the breed by finding good dogmates to get our dogs together with, and proving that even for newbies like us, we can succeed in the sport.


So why not use Mali for your Ring sport I don't believe a good working lines German Shepherd has the proper temperament to be competitive in Ring Sports and breeding them to be successful for it WILL require taking away there not so extreme temperament and making it extreme. Balance is what makes them what they were meant to be.
Sounds like your new to this and all ready want to start making puppies please don't!!!!


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I really don't think a GSD has a huge disadvantage in Ring sports, there are lines that produce small- medium dogs with high prey drive and good nerves. I think the key is knowing what you need and selecting a dog specifically for the job, not trying to make what you have work.

By the way, if anyone needs an awesome GSD for ring I will have one available shortly.


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> So why not use Mali for your Ring sport I don't believe a good working lines German Shepherd has the proper temperament to be competitive in Ring Sports and breeding them to be successful for it WILL require taking away there not so extreme temperament and making it extreme. Balance is what makes them what they were meant to be.
> Sounds like your new to this and all ready want to start making puppies please don't!!!!


Mike, 

I don't really understand your comment. 
We have no desire to get additional dogs - as I mentioned, we have Shepherds. 
What is it about their temperament that you think doesn't allow for them to be able to perform ringsport? They're certainly balanced, have good nerves, and just about everyone who's met them has either said "they're good dogs" or "they're great dogs"...in many ways performing better than even some of the mali's in the field. 

They heel, obey, bark, bite, out, jump, and do all the exercises that ringdogs are able to perform. Why does it have to be "extreme"? They can do the jumps at maximums (though we're scaling back to properly bring them up to the level they're at), the defense requires them to be very balanced (as opposed to barky nervebags), the face attack, flee, and searches are not entirely dissimilar than Schutzhund...what's so "extreme"? And if we're opting to to breed our dogs because we think they're great and we keep our pups, should professional breeders be the only ones entitled to experiment or make a profit in the name of improving the breed?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> Mike,
> 
> I don't really understand your comment.
> We have no desire to get additional dogs - as I mentioned, we have Shepherds.
> ...


Balance is what throws them off for Ring JMO


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Balance is what throws them off for Ring JMO


Are you saying a Ringsport dog (or in this case, a Malinois) has to be "unbalanced" to be successful at the sport? Balance between what and what?

I'm trying to understand your comment...seriously.

And when you say "balance", can you share what you mean so we're on the same page? 

Let me illustrate...

Most dogs are taught to "lunge" on the entry (I don't mean bungee work - I mean just throw themselves at the decoy). Someone in the past made a comment that it's bad for dogs to "pause" for a second...yet, during a bite entry, when using accessories, the dog "looks" for an entry, then bites. Yet a malinois doing the same thing is a wonderful thing, coming from the same trainer as a critique.

I would think freight trains are easier to esquive; I would think a dog that prefers to target is a good thing. 

A dog who's able to be attentive during the defense but crushes and works during the attack is a good thing. 

I'm guessing you've titled dogs in Ringsport? I'm trying to understand your context. These are the first dogs we title, so I'd like to understand your perspective.


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> Are you saying a Ringsport dog (or in this case, a Malinois) has to be "unbalanced" to be successful at the sport? Balance between what and what?
> 
> I'm trying to understand your comment...seriously.
> 
> ...


 
Good point! Though some have told me balance is compromise...I still disagree. Yin/Yang. To me an absolute admitted novice, any dog that thinks, as long as its not to the detriment of the excercise, shallow bite, incorrect targeting, etc. is a problem solver. I want a dog that can think independently. He has to on the object guard, right?


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Llyod,

Perhaps Jeff will speak up on this thread. He just imported in a Ring 3 German Shepherd. 

He could probably give you some ideas about his German Shepherd or thoughts. 

I like German Shepherds and would like to see more in Ring Sports. It seems like Ring Sports would be a good test of a dog's durability.

I can understand why someone is mentioning balance. I think that you can still have a calm dog that can do other sports. I think Mike might be worried about having a German Shepherd that is turned on all the time.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> I really don't think a GSD has a huge disadvantage in Ring sports, there are lines that produce small- medium dogs with high prey drive and good nerves. I think the key is knowing what you need and selecting a dog specifically for the job, not trying to make what you have work.


It's interesting to read what people think about the modern GSD and whatever shortcomings or advantages they have for any particular sport. 

The GSD in itself was supposed to be an *ALL* around working dog in the first place not a one trick pony. When breeders breed for a particular sport don't matter if it is a GSD or BBM that ends up watering down the breed. We have amazing dogs on the field .. that for example won't climb a set of stairs but is a monster on the field. Is that ok to keep breeding that? Some people would and I never understood that. Really breeders should be going for an all around dog (BBM or GSD), the drives that make a good herding SAR, Ring, SchH dog are all very closely related IMO. 

For giggles check out this video it says Schutzhund from 1936 it looks a lot more like KNPV or Mondio to me. You have to figure the GSD at this point and Schutzhund itself was not around for very long. Just to see where that sport evolved from to it's politically correct state today. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBi0PehfAM


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> It's interesting to read what people think about the modern GSD and whatever shortcomings or advantages they have for any particular sport.
> 
> The GSD in itself was supposed to be an *ALL* around working dog in the first place not a one trick pony. When breeders breed for a particular sport don't matter if it is a GSD or BBM that ends up watering down the breed. We have amazing dogs on the field .. that for example won't climb a set of stairs but is a monster on the field. Is that ok to keep breeding that? Some people would and I never understood that. Really breeders should be going for an all around dog (BBM or GSD), the drives that make a good herding SAR, Ring, SchH dog are all very closely related IMO.
> 
> ...


That's pretty funny.  It would appear that the vast majority of those dogs would blatantly fail confirmation; I can't imagine that most showline dogs would be able to grab a bite of that decoy...though you can see some of the dogs in the video lose the bite without an attempt to rebite. 

Great to see the French Ring type wall instead of the A-Frame. I can't imagine again that most dogs with low hocks could make it over that wall. 

Tell us more about your Ring III dog, Mr Empey


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> Mike,
> 
> I don't really understand your comment.
> We have no desire to get additional dogs - as I mentioned, we have Shepherds.
> ...





Geoff Empey said:


> It's interesting to read what people think about the modern GSD and whatever shortcomings or advantages they have for any particular sport.
> 
> The GSD in itself was supposed to be an *ALL* around working dog in the first place not a one trick pony. When breeders breed for a particular sport don't matter if it is a GSD or BBM that ends up watering down the breed. We have amazing dogs on the field .. that for example won't climb a set of stairs but is a monster on the field. Is that ok to keep breeding that? Some people would and I never understood that. Really breeders should be going for an all around dog (BBM or GSD), the drives that make a good herding SAR, Ring, SchH dog are all very closely related IMO.
> 
> ...


Geoff pretty much summed up what I was saying with out me having to add much. 
I have a one trick pony GSD rite now he is extremely prey driven he has tripped me up on some of the usual tools and methods I would use on a working lines GSD. My helper situation has been sketchy on and off in my club and not having a experienced training helper has made for some difficulties with this dog had I had a helper who could recognise what was in front of him and make some training calls and adjustments instead of me the guy behind the dog trying to tell and orchestrate my dogs foundation made for some shit.
I think my dog would have mad one hell of a ring dog but that aint never happening I just got no interest in it.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> That's pretty funny.  It would appear that the vast majority of those dogs would blatantly fail confirmation; I can't imagine that most showline dogs would be able to grab a bite of that decoy...though you can see some of the dogs in the video lose the bite without an attempt to rebite.
> 
> Great to see the French Ring type wall instead of the A-Frame. I can't imagine again that most dogs with low hocks could make it over that wall.


Yes that is interesting for sure it reminds me more of KNPV than anything except for the heeling and such. I do think it is a misnomer that really can't be the way Schutzhund was. 



Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> Tell us more about your Ring III dog, Mr Empey


Ha ha I don't know where that comes from but no one calls me Mr thanks! Ring 3 a work in progress, but do tell us about yours!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

so from the old video it looks like schutzhund used to use a suit?????



why and when did it switch to a sleeve?


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Ha ha I don't know where that comes from but no one calls me Mr thanks! Ring 3 a work in progress, but do tell us about yours!


I like to say that my boy is a boring, garden variety Black (working lines) German Shepherd. Big massive headpiece, crushing bite, and not the smartest tool in the shed...but as stable as it gets. 

He had an awesome mom with rock solid nerves  She came from Tom Z czech lines, Dark Gymor, and the like. Old czech stuff - she did gobs of IPO3/SchH3 and was a world qualifier before an injury. 

http://www.eurosportk9.com/solddogs2007/borina/borina.asp

His dad was Nate Harves' most recent loss, Sunshadow's Cain. Massive head on the dog, gobs of presence and dominance, very cool dog. Not the intended breeding we had in mind, but things sometimes work that way. 

http://www.sportwaffenk9.com/males.caine.shtml

My biggest sin with him has been inconsistent training due to changes in geography and work; yet, tonight we went out to work on "little wood"....and ....wow. I have myself a tracker. Nose to the ground, crosstracks, distractions, and no sooner did he find it 50/60 yards away in a busy place with people all over, he darted immediately back for a repeat. Who'd have known. With the search and escort in sight (he heels better for decoys than he does for me...), I just have to worry about the object guard (which I dread) and the stop attack, which will come in time...

He's jumping 2.3m and 1.3m on the hurdle, and he's started on the long jump...so we'll see


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I can understand why someone is mentioning balance. I think that you can still have a calm dog that can do other sports. I think Mike might be worried about having a German Shepherd that is turned on all the time.

Basco is not really calm, always wants to play, so I don't know about balance or calm. I do not really care for the word balance that much. I think it is a crock of shit. I do sport, so I will always prefer a dog that loves to bite, and figures out to be reactive on the field, and is goofy and playful off the field. 

I am not sure what term I would use, but balance is goofy. I do not need defense on the field as much as I need what I have said.

I worked Basco for the first time the other day. He turned on pretty good, and was a bit overstimulated. We did the defense and he was lunging at my decoy from the get go. Back and forth. I got him into heel finally, but had to correct the shit out of him. The third try he was calming down and working. Kinda expected a bit of a spazz, but he was having a Buko spaz, so that was nice to see. His outs are on his name, and really clean and fast. I was really happy with that.

Then we did an escort, I could not remember the damn word, so I just put him in front of the decoy and told him to start walking. He was calming down a bit more ..... sorta, and then decided to see if he could punk my decoy who was walking a bit slow. That worked. He bites really hard, but is not trying to bite in all the dang time. I like that. Saves the decoy from some stupid bruising. 

It was interesting for sure. I have to remember to take a copy of FR commands with me. Pretty sad, but that is why I use english.

From what I saw, you are not going to get really high level work out of this dog without hard corrections. When he decided to bite early, he went hard enough that I had a hard time keeping him from going. I think that Drake said he was about three meters or less. He has some really good scores in his book, but I am sure he got wacked a bunch. If you watch the video of him, you can see how he is bouncing all the time. 

I did some ob with him, after three months of just being a dog, he was pretty sloppy, and when we did the change of positions, he was pretty slow, but did them and creeped forward about a foot. Again, I expected that.

He also was pretty awful in his crate when Drake came over to see him. That was interesting. He growls at me when I put him in the crate occasionally and gets all emotional, but I just ignore him and grab his head and scrub him anyway and tell him he is a dumbass. he was not happy about Drake being near him. Not sure what that is about. Dumb dog.

I like the dog. He looks at everyone with that uncomfortable intensity for a bit, and then goes about his business. I had him out for a walk, and some guy was all worked up about his GF and was walking behind me ad he went to my right side and started doing the doh. I crossed the road. I wasn't worried about the guy, he was just having a bad time, no threat to anyone, but it was not easy to cross the road, the dog was not as convinced as I was.

I don't want that goofy "thinking" shit. They are not thinking, they have dropped out of drive. I do not want them all calm on the field, I want them to be reactive. I am thinking that the French train them a bit differently, and would like to go and see it someday. 

Off the field is different. I want them in drive on the field. There are plenty of ring 3 GSD's over there, so it would have to be a training problem, more than we think. Maybe too much training like a Mal over here or something.

I want to see what this dog will produce. I think that might give me an answer, if they come out like him, then they are doing a better job of producing the GSD.

I do not see the jumps as a GSD's problem, Esko has been flying over the jumps for some time now, I think he cleared max on the hurdle at 7 months, and max on the pallisade a bit before that. We have broad jump issues, like the lack of one, so that is a mystery as of now.

I finally figured Esko out, and am working on getting rid of my Buko habits, like working the dog for 45 minutes. Esko is a different dog for sure, I like a lot of what he is character wise. He is figuring out how to get his reward, but I am telling you, if you try and poke, push or prod him to be correct, training is over. He will fight you over stuff that most dogs do not even notice. I cannot wait to get him ready for trial.

I also have to keep an eye on him, and a good grip on the line. He has shown that he will go after my decoys. 

All in all, I think that the Basco and Esko are pretty good. Basco has proven himself, and we will see about Esko.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't want that goofy "thinking" shit. They are not thinking, they have dropped out of drive.


Quoted for truth.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Quoted for truth.




so is it agreed upon that its as simple as jumping through a window or fire to get the bite = drive and stopping and trying to flank them instead= out of drive?

I head that listed as an example of why (generally) mals are preferred over gsd's, but heard the flip side when a car scenario was done with the handler out of the car getting attacked by the decoy, and only the rear/away window is open for the dog to jump out, that the gsd could figure this out and the mal would just stay locked on and barking


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is not ringsport though, and who trained the Mal ?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> so is it agreed upon that its as simple as jumping through a window or fire to get the bite = drive and stopping and trying to flank them instead= out of drive?
> 
> I head that listed as an example of why (generally) mals are preferred over gsd's, but heard the flip side when a car scenario was done with the handler out of the car getting attacked by the decoy, and only the rear/away window is open for the dog to jump out, that the gsd could figure this out and the mal would just stay locked on and barking


The reality is that if you want a dog to go through adversaery to get the bite he needs to be ruled by his drive. Too many times dogs that "think" are thinking "This is getting too tough" and "Im not too sure this is worth it". Its kinda like the Dobie Flyby. They learn that its easier to miss the inital entry impact on a courage test and get a softer bite on the re-attack. Thats what thinking does for you.


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