# Easiest hundred bucks you'll ever make. PP vs Sport



## Butch Cappel

Ok I put the $100 dollars up to get your attention, and the “PP vs Sport” to warn away all those that are sick to death of this argument on the internet. So if you are still reading I will assume you’d like to make that $100 and you are not fed up with that argument.

The purpose of this post is to finally put an end to this silly stuff. I know, I know, if we decide it you’ll lose about thirty-nine hours of reading time, per week at work, but I have great faith in the Internet Experts and they will be back with something else in no time.

First let’s get our terms clear; “Sports dog trainers” will refer to anyone advocating SchutzHund or Ring sports. “PP trainers” will refer to every body else, except for those doing K9 PRO SPORTS (you’ll see why in a minute)

Sports dog trainers keep saying PP dogs are nerve bags trained with all defense drive.
PP trainers say Sports dogs are Prey monsters that in real life wont bite a biscuit unless you soak it in gravy, or wrap it in jute. 

Sports trainers think PP trainers can’t train at the skill level required for recognized sports.
PP trainers say Sport trainers only train patterns for themselves and dogs to memorize.

In all the years no one has stuck their head above the mudslinging, wiped the mud from their eyes, looked around and thought “WHY!” Why is PP different than Sport work.
Why do you just use defense drive to train, If that is even true why, Why, WHY?

The first and possibly still the only Written standard for qualifications and judging a PP dog were written for K9 PRO SPORTS in 1992. And even though, today, there are almost as many PP trainers as there are Obama television speeches, few of them seem interested in the only written standard for the discipline they are training for.

So why are we not getting the WHY from the PP trainers? 

Then we could understand what they really do, even without written rules and standards as in the recognized dog bite sports (Or dog grip sports if your into arm wrestling or SchH.) 

I can think of only two reasons no PP trainer has properly explained what they do to the sport dog crowd; 
1.	They don’t really understand what they are doing, as the Sport dog folks believe. Or 
2. They don’t know enough about the English language! 

We know, they know, what they know, cause they are all over the internet telling every one how much they know! So I figured it must be because they don’t know how to write about what they do. The bickering, snickering and food fights will continue until someone steps up and defines what the PP trainers are doing. Give it a face, some substance. Now is your chance to step up and be that hero, AND win a hundred bucks!

This AIN’T no internet nonsense challenge, which is why I am using the old fashioned “Put your money where your mouth is” system! It works like this, in one week I will post three questions, which when answered will clearly define PP trained dogs and show the difference in PP and Sport. 

To be fair to our international members and posters I will post the questions this Friday the 12, at 3m central time zone. This seems to be the most likely time for people in North America, Europe, & Australia to access it.

This is how the topic and the questions will be formatted to get the most accurate answers possible, without all the “Prey Monster, Nerve Bag” back and forth nonsense. All sports have basics that must be mastered before you can advance. If you are into, oh say, skating, you might compete in figure skating or speed skating.

One requires more balance and gymnastic type skills, the other more power and endurance, but the one common basic is you gotta know how to stand up on two little blades and go fast like heck without consistently bouncing your tushy off the ice.

Jut as in skating or racket sports or a host of other things there is a consistent foundation skill for all dog disciplines requiring bites/grips. I will post the three foundation basics, then how that basic is applied in SchH and Ring sports and the winner will be the one who posts correctly the same applications for PP work. The winner will be the first person to answer all three basics correctly, plus this question “What drives, if any need to be monitored or used in creating an efficient PP Dog?”

The judges will be myself and a twenty one year Police veteran currently PSD handler, who is glad to help judge, but refuses to have his name appear on a Message board. If any one else would like to help judge the final answer please contact me and give me an idea of your street experience and I would love to have two more judges, street experience is a must. 

You must answer on the K9 PRO SPORTS message board or by emailing me, if you also don’t do message boards, email- [email protected]. this is necessary in order to keep consistent records on the time each answer is submitted, only answers on the K9PS board or e-mailed to me will be counted.
Feel free to crosspost, the more the merrier.

So there you have it, if you are still a little confused just stay tuned and you will see when I post the fundamentals it is all very simple, after all I am a dog trainer!

Listen Well, Bite Hard
www.k9ps.com


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## Al Curbow

A PPD is ALL the dog, very simple, not a whole lot of training required. No need for pages and pages of text. K9 pro sports is just another sport, are you wearing a suit or sleeve? Sport! Now if you really want to know the difference, put that 100 bucks up and take on any dog that people throw at you with no equipment on, zero, nada , nilch, and start running dogs off, sooner or later you'll meet the right dog and lose your bet,and there will be your answer!! Please make sure it's on video!


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## Howard Gaines III

*I can think of only two reasons no PP trainer has properly explained what they do to the sport dog crowd; *
*1. They don’t really understand what they are doing, as the Sport dog folks believe. Or *
*2. They don’t know enough about the English language! *

Explaining to the sport crowd what you do and why is a JOKE. The reason folks get away from this venue is to not play to their standards and games of "skill." This would also be the same reason folks have broken from the AKC! Trying to explain to an organization one wishes not to be part of is also like asking "permission" to do your own thing...Can you see the folks breaking away from England asking if it's okay to do so? Or the UKC asking the AKC to give THEIR blessing? Right!!!!

I know what I'm doing and know what our members want and don't want. This is one of the reasons none want to join any K-9 sport clubs; life's not a sport and the bad guys don't wear sleeves when they break into your business or house only to rape, rob, and set stuff on fire...

Not knowing enough about the English language, don't think language has anything to do with it...Spanish, French, German, whatever, PPD work is done in many countries that I am aware. Good topic and worth hearing more from others!!!!


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## Jerry Lyda

Not me Howard, I'm leaving this one alone. I only put this here because you asked.


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## Alyssa Myracle

I train Schutzhund.

I think prey drive is overrated.

I think dogs have been bred to have stupidly high levels of prey drive to compensate for weak trainers.


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## Mike Scheiber

Alyssa Myracle said:


> I train Schutzhund
> 
> I think prey drive is overrated.
> 
> I think dogs have been bred to have stupidly high levels of prey drive to compensate for weak trainers.


What do you think your assessment of Gildo would be if he were trained with more modern methods pray and motivation rather than compliance


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## Bob Scott

I play sport with my GSDs. 
The JRT I just kick in the head now and then to keep up with his PP training. 
It must be working. NASTY little bassid will eat anyone that gets close!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Uh, I watched a vid of K9prosports a few years back, it was the championships. Not sure a lot of those dogs were ready at all. THere was a Rott that decided the furry thing in the crate was more interesting, and then there was a Dobe that Butch had to use a clipboard to keep him away, as the dog didn't get that there was a decoy down the field.

Most of the problem with PP trainers out there, has a lot to do with inexperience, the clientele they have to deal with, and the dogs that they have to deal with.

I know more than a few that produce nice stuff, but it is gonna cost you an arm and a leg, and they train the clients dogs very very rarely. The rest hurry through the basics, as they have a set price, and the client will not know the difference anyway.

There was a guy a few years back that took his dog for a board and train PP package. He came out to club as he was interested in doing Mondio. The dog would not do anything. I have seen this a lot. The dog figures it survived those people, and figured out that they were not going to kill him, as long as he bit the sleeve.

I couldn't get him to play with a tug on a long line.

Not sure what the hundred bucks was about, or why there needed to be judges, but I know too much stuff gets deleted on your board. No point in even going there.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
I train Schutzhund.

I think prey drive is overrated.

I think dogs have been bred to have stupidly high levels of prey drive to compensate for weak trainers.

We have a winner for the DUMBEST thing said on this board in a long while. THis beats the bulldog banter crap. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III

Jerry, when something like this comes up, send me a PM and have me look away and tell me to go clean kennels...LOL Keep training and keeping me out of the Mod H2O!!!=;


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## Steve Strom

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> I train Schutzhund.
> 
> I think prey drive is overrated.
> 
> I think dogs have been bred to have stupidly high levels of prey drive to compensate for weak trainers.
> 
> We have a winner for the DUMBEST thing said on this board in a long while. THis beats the bulldog banter crap. LOL


Hey Jeff, I would read this as being very similar to what you would think about the old time strong dogs not being around anymore. Or being bred down for lesser skilled handlers. Isn't that the concern you would have with Mals? What am I missing there?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I don't think that any drive is overrated, and I am still trying to figure in my head how the different styles of training effect the end product.

The old time dogs where selected a lot differently. I think that a weak handler is not going to have any more luck with a really driven high prey drive dog than they would with anything from back in the day. I think a lot of handlers would have a lot of trouble from the older dogs, as they would look at them as too weak to be their handlers and would ignore them, or worse, they would snap at them and just do what they wanted.

Some of the nicest dogs I ever worked, or saw working were pedigree heavy with HGH lines. They thought for themselves. I do not remember them being overly motivated for food, so that might be a problem. I do remember a few that would not play tug with their owners. Odd how that came to my head just now.

The biggest problem I have with that statement is the lack of understanding of how the whole thing works. I do not think that people recognize defense, as I hear to many people talk about how they work a dog in all prey, something I consider impossible.

Even when I am just farting around with my dogs with a tug I see defense flickering around, as well as possession.


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## Steve Strom

Thanks. If I can figure out how to phrase it, I think it would be interesting to have a thread about which type of dog with which drives are a good match for different handlers. Not just level or experience, but general training styles.


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## Alyssa Myracle

Jeff,

I'm not saying that prey isn't important, but that people seem to put far too much emphasis on it.

Breeding very high prey, nervy dogs that in the end, are total flakes under pressure.
A dog that won't (can't) think for itself.

If a dog had ZERO prey, I'd be impossible to do foundation bite work.

But a dog that is all prey and little to no defense, ain't gonna last as the work progresses.

Unless of course, you water down an entire sport to accomodate them.

Because the dogs themselves have been watered down to accomodate weak handlers and/or weak training techniques.


I don't think Karen Pryor was some sort of genious that suddenly hit on something no one had ever tried before.

I just don't think PP training would have worked on a dog 100 years ago.
Different dogs entirely.

It works, to an extent now, because the dogs have been changed from their fundamental beings by shit breeding, shit selection and shit testing.

Prey drive, and defense drive for that matter, have their places.

What I don't hear mentioned any more, is dogs with work ethic.
Dogs that WANT to work, and need only to be shown WHAT the work IS.

I really doubt these insanely prey-driven GSDs could have herded sheep.
They'd have killed the entire flock.

Prey drive = good
So much prey drive a dog can't think straight when something goes wiggle? = Bad


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## Daryl Ehret

_What I don't hear mentioned any more, is dogs with work ethic.
Dogs that WANT to work, and need only to be shown WHAT the work IS._

And that's one of the most _insightful_ statements of the day 

I have to say, one of my dogs has that insane kind prey drive, but the important thing being he WANTS to work, and the only time he's frustrated is when I'm not clearly conveying what I want from him. Another important thing, is he can turn it OFF. AND, he has the best damn potential for sheep herding my instructor has seen in a long time, and has even made recommendations to others for his stud service.

Today was only his third session of training, and he was very able to calmly walk up and approach the goats we were tending, without putting too much pressure on them to cause them to go into flight. Grant it, goats are easier than sheep in this respect, but he's still learning, and establishing control without going into crazy drive was the important focus for the day.

This is the same dog that leapt for anything and everything that moved suddenly and swiftly before he was at a more mature age. This required a lot of ready attentiveness on the handler's part in his earlier stages, and his willingness to please and desire for work makes up for all the rest necessary to accomplish a proper balance of self control and clear headedness into maturity.


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## Mike Scheiber

Alyssa Myracle said:


> I train Schutzhund.
> 
> I think prey drive is overrated.
> 
> I think dogs have been bred to have stupidly high levels of prey drive to compensate for weak trainers.


This dog would kill a bitch in heat if she kept him from his ball.
I could teach him to beat you in checkers with this ball. 
I have never met the dog but judging from his pedigree my guess is a couple of unfair corrections and there might be a fast ride to the ER.
Whats a week trainer? Whats a strong trainer?


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## Jerry Lyda

A week trainer is one that trains all week.LOL

A weak trainer is one that has very little to no knowledge of what to do or how to correct if the behavior he's looking for does not happen. Mostly it's the lack of knowledge. I've seen trainers that were heavy handed for no reason. I've seen others not correct the dog when they should have. The dog will get away with too much or the handler will shut the dog down. Confussion on the dogs part due to the lack of knowledge of the handler (trainer).
JMO.


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## Kristen Cabe

> a dog that is all prey and little to no defense, ain't gonna last as the work progresses.


Tell that to Jak. ;-)

Seriously, I do get what you're saying, though.




> What I don't hear mentioned any more, is dogs with work ethic.
> Dogs that WANT to work, and need only to be shown WHAT the work IS.


My young female is like this. She is SO much fun to train. I can't wait to compete with her!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Prey drive = good
So much prey drive a dog can't think straight when something goes wiggle? = Bad

How many dogs like this are there ?? I know some that when they are young are like this, but then you train them.

Quote: a dog that is all prey and little to no defense, ain't gonna last as the work progresses.

Why ?? I hear this occasionally, but have you considered the reason he is all prey is because he is not scared ?? If the defense threshold is high enough to keep him in prey, then what is the big deal ?? Defense and avoidance thresholds can be pretty close. So why go there ??


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## Jason Sidener

I would like to know where all these "insanely prey-driven GSDs" are because I have a hard time finding them.


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## Guest

You aren't satisifed with the ones with a sense of duty?


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## pat lee

My Min Pin wishes to participate in all challenge matches. All comers welcome. We will defeat anyone at any style. No one shall defeat Nermal. The sport people will be crushed. The PP people will be schooled. Bring it!8)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I used to have a semi monthly small dog punting contest. Care to see how far I can punt the little ****er ???


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Jason, I think that they got a little carried away, and were talking as if they knew something.

However, it is just possible that what their definitions are of insane prey drive is really just normal drive.


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## Jerry Lyda

Jeff, I agree. Dogs will work in prey for this is where they are having fun. Is'nt this what starts it all. A dog that is put in defence, that has been trained in prey all it's life, will do one of two things. Back to nature, fight or flight. We don't put that much defence on a dog to make it flight so we back it down just enough to make it fun again. Next time we take them just a little further and back it down again. We keep doing this until the dog will stay in the fight. More defence more fight. And on and on and on until the dog always wins. Then he thinks he can never loose so the fight goes on and on. This is TRANING. Without training the dog would be nothing but a fear biter at best.


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## jay lyda

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> have you considered the reason he is all prey is because he is not scared ?? If the defense threshold is high enough to keep him in prey, then what is the big deal ??



Thank you, thank you, thank you. So many people I have tried to get this point across.


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## Dwyras Brown

Jeff and Jay, I specifically remember Elmo saying a dog hat won't work in defense is not a good dog. The dog needs to be able to go into defense easier.:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

A dog has to bring it himself. People that have to work that hard to get a dog to in their mind, not mine "bring it" are bass ackwards. I do not care how someone trains or how hard they will work to get a dog to where it can go, but what bullshit that is.

I just want the dog to have it, and want to bite bad enough that I don't have to go through coniptions.

Why do you see all the Mals in Sch/ring ?? Lazy ****ers like me that don't want to work that hard, and end up with a dog that is still a junker, but has the title. I ain't whipping a dog chained to a table and then when I am done thinking that this dog is gonna do the job. 

I am pretty much over the whole drive thing. It either bites, or it doesn't.


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## pat lee

My Min Pin can be punted 50 yards and still be in defense drive. Also my Min Pin has 213.07% prey drive and targets the scrotum as I taught her that nuts are owned by chipmunks. She hates chipmunks.:---)


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

pat lee said:


> My Min Pin can be punted 50 yards and still be in defense drive. Also my Min Pin has 213.07% prey drive and targets the scrotum as I taught her that nuts are owned by chipmunks. She hates chipmunks.:---)


ROTFLMAO......


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## pat lee

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> ROTFLMAO......


Now would be a good time for me to point out that people shouldn't take me or my posts too seriously. I know a lot of people realllllly take forum chatting serious. I tend to try and put humour into things, but some people can take that the wrong way. ....still, scrotum munchin Min Pins IS funny !


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## David Frost

pat lee said:


> My Min Pin can be punted 50 yards and still be in defense drive. Also my Min Pin has 213.07% prey drive and targets the scrotum as I taught her that nuts are owned by chipmunks. She hates chipmunks.:---)


Now that's funny right there. A bit wierd but funny none-the-less.

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler

I'd just like to know how long a dog can be worked in prey drive before exhaustion sets in?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have to stop after about 5 minutes, or so.


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## Tina Rempel

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have to stop after about 5 minutes, or so.


Is the because you're tired or the dog is tired? LOL :-\" That's about 3 minutes longer then me. :-$


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## Gillian Schuler

Tina Rempel said:


> Is the because you're tired or the dog is tired? LOL :-\" That's about 3 minutes longer then me. :-$


[-X 

If it's a hot day, the pure prey dog might not be so motivated - give me the dog that can take pressure from the helper. I know you can get prey dogs to fight for their prey (sleeve) but for them it's a game and a dog with natural aggression that wants to fight the helper and doesn't crumple under pressure is what most handlers want, surely? A point or two less maybe by today's standards but winning isn't everything - a good dog is, however.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You mean if it is weak prey. I don't see strong prey melting under the sun.


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## Jim Nash

We had 2 pure prey K9's on our unit . Down to 1 now . 1 was on the first episode of K9 Cops . He made the apprehension after a car chase then did a track and found the second suspect . Spun alot during tracks . 

Not the the type of dog I prefer to work . Just personality wise , but they were good dogs . They would work till they keeled over . Not wimps in the least . Heat , cold , wind , rain they were working fools . They had no problem with real work . Not equipment fixated nor did they need movement to engage . 

It was a scarey thing decoying these 2 . Crushing bites and no matter what kind of presure I would put on them they wouldn't be effected and the whole time they were having fun . Both did great on the street but they tend to do more damage then the other dogs . 

There's a certain type of dog I like working or training but for me just give me a dog that has the courage to really hunt down and engage a man (more out of prey or defence , some where in between , fight or whatever) and that's the dog I'll train or work .

It's knowing what the dog brings to the table and adjusting your training from there . Any cookie cutter crap based on baises of certain drives or behaviors just limits you pool of candidates that will do the job .


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## Jim Nash

I will add however , that I have never seen a Police K9 that worked all in defence . I don' think I have to tell anybody here why I think that is .


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## James Degale

Jim i think you have just described the difference between between pure West German, Belgian, Dutch breeding versus traditional Czech lines. I prefer Czech dogs for the reasons you mentioned in your post. Some find them, slower in the uptake sometimes, a bit stubborn, slightly more "lazy", more difficult to train but in a real life, when it is you against the bad guy, I think they are less likely to backdown and find something extra in themselves to bring to the table.


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## Jerry Lyda

I don't think that where a dog's genes come from makes a difference. Granted some lines seem to produce better in some dogs. The dog from where ever he comes from has to have it in his heart. I've seen pound dogs do really well. Prey or defence who cares as long as the job is done. I do like prey dogs, with some defence, there's more control.


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## Jim Nash

I think I have made somewhat similiar statements as James and that it is a very loose generalization of the many Czech Dogs I've seen . But very loose , most of our K9's come with Czech backrounds and they are as different as most people are . The 2 I spoke of happen to both have Czech lines , so go figure . 

Jerry that the balance is the 2nd type of dog I prefer . My first I will keep to myself so as not to get this too far off topic and cause an uproar .


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## James Degale

A dog from traditional Czech lines, PS, Policia, Jipo Me and so forth, is not the same as a dog procured from Czech. More recently increasing number of Czech breeders have been mixing West German lines into their kennels to bring up prey and compete in sport. Would be interesting to study the pedigree of the dogs you mentioned. Like on another thread recently, a supposedly "czech" dog was actually 1/4 west german and that west german bit is known for throwing smaller heads and size. 

I take your point about generalizations though.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: We had 2 pure prey K9's on our unit . Down to 1 now . 1 was on the first episode of K9 Cops . He made the apprehension after a car chase then did a track and found the second suspect . Spun alot during tracks . 

Not the the type of dog I prefer to work . Just personality wise , but they were good dogs . They would work till they keeled over . Not wimps in the least . Heat , cold , wind , rain they were working fools . They had no problem with real work . Not equipment fixated nor did they need movement to engage . 

It was a scarey thing decoying these 2 . Crushing bites and no matter what kind of presure I would put on them they wouldn't be effected and the whole time they were having fun . Both did great on the street but they tend to do more damage then the other dogs . 


So here we have a guy that actually uses his dogs against humans, and he pretty much blows out of the water all the things that people cry and cry about "prey monster" dogs. Oh look, he says that the dog that is a prey monster and isn't scared of the bad guy causes more damage. I guess that kinda makes the table training people look just a bit stupid, now doesn't it. It also makes the retards that "think" you have to add defense look a little stupid as well.

Then, right after this post of how the prey dogs are not weak, and are actually causing more damage, we see how reading comprehension is important. This is not a slam on anyone, but this is a great response showing how there needs to be this mythical "more" to a dog, and responds with this, even when the evidence of prey = NO FEAR = more damage is presented.

Noobs, pay attention.

Quote: Jim i think you have just described the difference between between pure West German, Belgian, Dutch breeding versus traditional Czech lines. I prefer Czech dogs for the reasons you mentioned in your post. Some find them, slower in the uptake sometimes, a bit stubborn, slightly more "lazy", more difficult to train but in a real life, when it is you against the bad guy, I think they are less likely to backdown and find something extra in themselves to bring to the table.

Less likely to back down and find something extra. Ok, who was it that was backing down ?? The man just says that the two prey dogs are crunching bones, right ??

So then this poster likes the fact that they are slower on the uptake, and slightly more lazy, as in more difficult to train in real life.

So again, this is not a slam against this poster, he is just a really good example of some of the really silly shit I hear all the time. Remember the bulldog thread where they were talking about you put the dog on the table so he knows how to deal with stress and all that ??

This is all tied together. People have been fed this adding defense bullshit for so long, as it is supposed to "add" to a dogs fight. So I make him scared, and then he fights better ?? 

Again, Deagle, it is not really a slam on you, but the statement is perfect on how some people cannot see things. Why the **** would I want a more stubborn dumb dog, when 99.9999999999% of his life is not involving stepping up in time of need ?? LOL


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## Gerry Grimwood

James Degale said:


> More recently increasing number of Czech breeders have been mixing West German lines into their kennels to bring up prey and compete in sport.


If by the 60's you mean recent, then you're right.


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## Jim Nash

Jeff , 

Unfortunately it's too easy in these types of internet discussions to over generalize things . I agree with you to a point but I also agree with James to a point . 

There's more to a dog then just it's ability to engage a badguy for real . In PSD work and PP work . There's the ability to control the dog in situations and in PSD work the added ability(requirement) to work the dog in scent work . Alot of prey can be a blessing and a curse depending on the dog . Same goes for defence , etc. .

With these 2 dogs initially they were a bitch to get good detailed scenting work . Thank God they had 2 very good handlers that put alot of work into the dogs and turned them into very good all around PSD's . But there are many that couldn't handle a dog like that and for me when training 1 of these dogs in Narc. detection this dog was a pain in the butt . 

Once again for me it's what the dog brings as a combination of drives or behaviors that matter , that in combination for that particular dog equals it's ability to engage man for real . Not how much defence , prey , fight , etc. . 

We've got highly defensive dogs that can remain in a defensive state(while engaging a suspect) for along time and still stay in a strong engagement with that suspect . It depends on how each dog performs in those drives or behaviors that make them move forward and engage a suspect , be it in prey or a combination of drives or behaviors .

Sorry I'm doing the best I can in making my thoughts clear on this subject , but I don't think I'm doing it justice . That's why I'll never right a book on this and haven't read any good books(IMO) on this it yet .


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## Jim Nash

Jeff stated ;

" It also makes the retards that "think" you have to add defense look a little stupid as well. "

I think for most dogs that have ANY amount of defense you have to teach it that it can still stay in the fight when they start feeling defensive and win the fight . They have to experiance some defense to learn that they can win while in an engagement that pushes them into defense . For me this is working a dog up through prey then later slowly adding more defense as we progress . 

Problem with some sport folk is they work more with developing the prey in a dog . Works good for points but if their dog is needed for a real engagement that will almost certainly push the dog into defense they will not engage or disengage once they start feeling defensive . 

The problem with some PP folks is they work more on developing defense and it works great when the dog's on leash or near it's handler where it gets just enough confidence to stay in the fight or for some just look threatening but if push too far or too long or given an avenue for escape (off lead or the handler tries to call this dog into a real confrontation from a distance) these dogs won't engage either . 

For me it's a balance in training each dogs drives or behaviors that will give you a dog that will engage for real . Some Sport trainers get it . Some PP get it . 

The problem is most in either field will never be in a position where their dog is needed for real , so many train their dogs poorly(don't know it) and have strong opinions on what is right when they really have never proven out their training or dog selection for real . Lots of talk but no real experience to back up their beliefs .


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## James Degale

Jim Nash said:


> Jeff stated ;
> 
> " It also makes the retards that "think" you have to add defense look a little stupid as well. "
> 
> I think for most dogs that have ANY amount of defense you have to teach it that it can still stay in the fight when they start feeling defensive and win the fight . They have to experiance some defense to learn that they can win while in an engagement that pushes them into defense . For me this is working a dog up through prey then later slowly adding more defense as we progress .
> 
> Problem with some sport folk is they work more with developing the prey in a dog . Works good for points but if their dog is needed for a real engagement that will almost certainly push the dog into defense they will not engage or disengage once they start feeling defensive .
> 
> The problem with some PP folks is they work more on developing defense and it works great when the dog's on leash or near it's handler where it gets just enough confidence to stay in the fight or for some just look threatening but if push too far or too long or given an avenue for escape (off lead or the handler tries to call this dog into a real confrontation from a distance) these dogs won't engage either .
> 
> For me it's a balance in training each dogs drives or behaviors that will give you a dog that will engage for real . Some Sport trainers get it . Some PP get it .
> 
> The problem is most in either field will never be in a position where their dog is needed for real , so many train their dogs poorly(don't know it) and have strong opinions on what is right when they really have never proven out their training or dog selection for real . Lots of talk but no real experience to back up their beliefs .


Excellent points Jim, well said. I agree balance of drives is important but more so knowing how to bring the best out of an individual dog is the whole secret to producing a good working dog. Not everyone does it the same, not every dog is suited to a handler's style and not every handler is adept at adjusting their style to suit different dogs. Yes, we all have our particular preferences, for me I prefer the traditional Czech dog but that is no slur on other types of dogs at all. 

Defense is not all bad nor prey all bad. A dog in working in fight/defense can be moving forward and it does not mean he is insecure or about to disengage and a dog in prey can be intense and be working powerfully. As I said a lot depends on conditioning and training. But IMO a dog which is totally reliant on one drive or the other is not sound, I prefer a balanced dog. Too much to be written on the subject, we'll be here all day, eh.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I think for most dogs that have ANY amount of defense you have to teach it that it can still stay in the fight when they start feeling defensive and win the fight . They have to experiance some defense to learn that they can win while in an engagement that pushes them into defense . For me this is working a dog up through prey then later slowly adding more defense as we progress . 

Ok, then devil's advocate, Just how long do you leave your dogs on a guy ?? If a dog is crushing like you are saying, due to high prey drive, what is the likelyhood that the dog is on a guy long enough for the guy to put it in defense ?? You guys pretty much don't go out all by yourselves, so lets just say that the bad guy is all whatevered up, how long is that dog there by himself ??

And for the record, the prey dogs that you guys had, when training defense, how did they react to it???

I do not believe in civil work, I just see too much hypocrisy there. For me the dog will bite or it won't, and if you cannot tell the difference, get another dog.


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## Gillian Schuler

I think a 100% prey dog has to learn to work through defence just as a "defence" dog has to learn to work through prey drive if the defence side is too heavy.

As I know it, there isn't a 50%/50% prey or defence dog. One or the other drive dominates. So "weak" prey" could actually mean "strong defence" or not?

In *2006*, there was a similar thread about prey and "defence" dogs on this forum. I put the ".." around defence as I like to think of the dog that has a natural aggression to "challenge the decoy / helper" instead of pure defence dog.

Mike Schoonbrood stated in a post on this thread that he knew of top handlers in the sport scene that would in no way be interested in training a 100% prey dog.

Bob Scott followed suit and stated that he would rather walk off a dog that would like to "bite the ass off the helper" and lose a few points.

These are my sentiments entirely. Sorry guys if your memory is short but your statements have validity for me today. I just can't find the thread again.

Butch, you can donate your 100 bucks to "Schuler's Retirement Programme" but at least it started a thread that has become to have hair and teeth!!

It would be good to keep it going.


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## Daryl Ehret

If you're describing prey and defense as inseperable counterbalancing influences (as seems often done), I don't believe that's the case. What would you call strong-prey/strong-defense, or weak-prey/weak-defense, and the way thresholds affect each?


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## Gillian Schuler

Daryl Ehret said:


> If you're describing prey and defense as inseperable counterbalancing influences (as seems often done), I don't believe that's the case. What would you call strong-prey/strong-defense, or weak-prey/weak-defense, and the way thresholds affect each?


I wouldn't call them inseparable. Although I did say weak prey culd be strong defence - admitted.

But is this so? You have raised a question to which I have no answer.

What is a weak prey dog or a weak defence dog - bad nerves??

Or is low prey tantamount to high defence?


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## Butch Cappel

"Schuler's Retirement Programme" HHhhmmm! Seems a noble and a worthy cause for donations, I'll keep that in mind if none our PP or Sport dog Experts can answer those four very simple questions.

As to this thread it did seem to spark a little interest didn't it? So by way of a little more reading time I noticed you made this statement. 

_"As I know it, there isn't a 50%/50% prey or defence dog. One or the other drive dominates. So "weak" prey" could actually mean "strong defence" or not?"
_

When SchH first came to this country the whole "Instinct/drive" training system was new and amazing. I remember at the first seminars I attended, and in every issue of "Dog Sports Magazine" published by Mike McCowan, the hot topic was always how to use these Drives.

At that time we were told the best dogs go into a fight, or onto the field balanced in both Prey and Defense. The theory was that each drive had specific instinctual responses that contributed to the dogs fighting ability. So the 50/50 dog was not just possible but desirable.

Not sure many Americans really understood the concept but I have followed that formula faithfully ever since and rarely been disappointed in the types of dogs it produces.


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## Gillian Schuler

Butch Cappel said:


> "Schuler's Retirement Programme" HHhhmmm! Seems a noble and a worthy cause for donations, I'll keep that in mind if none our PP or Sport dog Experts can answer those four very simple questions.
> 
> As to this thread it did seem to spark a little interest didn't it? So by way of a little more reading time I noticed you made this statement.
> 
> _"As I know it, there isn't a 50%/50% prey or defence dog. One or the other drive dominates. So "weak" prey" could actually mean "strong defence" or not?"_
> 
> 
> When SchH first came to this country the whole "Instinct/drive" training system was new and amazing. I remember at the first seminars I attended, and in every issue of "Dog Sports Magazine" published by Mike McCowan, the hot topic was always how to use these Drives.
> 
> At that time we were told the best dogs go into a fight, or onto the field balanced in both Prey and Defense. The theory was that each drive had specific instinctual responses that contributed to the dogs fighting ability. So the 50/50 dog was not just possible but desirable.
> 
> Not sure many Americans really understood the concept but I have followed that formula faithfully ever since and rarely been disappointed in the types of dogs it produces.


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## Gillian Schuler

Ja, ja, "go into the field balanced in both drives" but I would say that they do not genetically enter the world this way.

The prey dog can be encouraged to fight for its prey. The "defence" dog can be chanelled into prey to counteract it's aggressive tendencies??

More, I do not know and would welcome more posts...

I wish I were a helper but watching and listening has helped me enormously.

It's just not the same, talking about it on the net or talking about it on the field when it's actually happening.


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## Daryl Ehret

_"What is a weak prey dog or a weak defence dog - bad nerves??"_

Not necessarily either, nor is a strong-prey/strong-defense position. Courage, hardness, dominance are separate qualities of temperament.

Prey is the drive to persue and sieze an object, defense is the measure of civil aggression (non-object), that if over elevated, can push some dogs into avoidance or plainly cause lack of clear-headedness necessary to productively train while conditioning them to the routine.

As I think Jeff mentioned, continued defensework will gradually raise their threshold for going into avoidance, and for the sharp dog, gradually raise threir threshold for going into defense. Some dogs seem to naturally have very high upper thresholds for defense, and can withstand insurmountable pressure. A sharp dog would have an easily triggered lowside threshold for stimulation of civil aggression, and could still have a high upper threshold (before avoidance).

A dog who has plenty of courage but that's difficult to put into a bark and hold, might be an example of high threshold for defense (the lowside threshold of the defense spectrum). The idea of course, is not to try to break the upper threshold into avoidance.

So then, defensework is from my perspective, a rather distinct quality from prey drive, though the formulas Butch mentions are designed to work with both drives, as both are necessary to some degree in the work.


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## Alyssa Myracle

(Sorry guys, been busy and missed the fun)

As an example... my bitch has what a fair amount of the trainers in this area have classed as "low prey drive".

My response to that assessment, "Well okay... but she gets the job done, don't she?"
Is she perhaps less flashy than the other dogs in the OB, because she is a thinking, working dog vs a dog anticipating a tug or a ball? Yep.

The people that adore the whole "prey drive building" crap, are the people that want the super-flashy OB.
I want a dog that is obedient. Isn't that the effing point?

I dunno, perhaps Schutzhund is entirely the wrong sport for me.

In the bitework, my bitch could give two shits about the sleeve.
To her, it's a means to an end, which is fighting the helper.
She happily spits the sleeve out and redirects for the helper when given an opportunity.
She carries the sleeve back to the helper and rams it into his legs to reengage.

She really only shows prey when the helper is up close, and she anticipates the bite.
Her defense is from a distance, if you want to call it defense. 

If you buy into the whole concept of "Fight Drive", then that's what she's got.

Personally, I think she's just a working dog, doing work.

If I asked her to herd sheep, she'd do it, because it's a job. (Done it.)
If I asked her to weave through poles and jump over shit, she'd do it, because it's a job. (Done it.)

Instead, I ask her to track, do some obedience and kick the crap out of a bad guy with the rules she's been shown.
And she does it. Because it's a job I've asked her to do.


My opinion?

A dog should want to work.
If it doesn't, it's a POS.

Drives ultimately should be irrelevant, a dog that truly WANTS to work, will do the work regardless of what "Drives" they have (provided it isn't a nervebag).
Pack drive and a work ethic should overrule the rest of that crap.

Less "make me" and more "show me", eh?

Defense is overrated too.

Work ethic and pack drive are horribly underrated.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: She happily spits the sleeve out and redirects for the helper when given an opportunity.
She carries the sleeve back to the helper and rams it into his legs to reengage.

So, which is it ?? Kind of a contradiction don't ya think ??? If she was all that, she would not have the sleeve in her mouth, but his legs.

I think people promote the dog they have way too much.


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## Alyssa Myracle

If she has the sleeve and is allowed to (ie, I am not holding her back), she will try to return it to the helper.

If however, she has been outted, and the sleeve is on the ground, she has been known to redirect to the helper if the helper moves too much, or too aggressively.

She goes for the arms, because that's the way she's been taught to play the game.
That's the way the job has been structured.

Now. If I wasn't such a piss-poor trainer, I'm sure she'd be a hell of a Ring dog.
But I'm not up to that challenge right now. 
Mentally, its more stress than I need.

Were some of my husband's old trainers around to train Ring with, I might do it.



No, Danke is not THE ideal dog.
BUT, the things I have to fix with her, are things I don't mind having to fix.

Trying to motivate an unmotivated dog, is not something I want to have to do.
Ultimately, I like having enough dog to say, Her failings are not hers, they are my failings as a trainer. 
If she scores under a 300 at trial, it will only be because her trainer sucks.
Not because she wasn't capable.

I spent too much time trying to *change* the dog.
Trying to "build drive" because the only way I'd ever seen a dog trained in OB was through shit-tons of prey drive. 

Having a dog that has low prey, and zero food, forced me to look at things differently.

For starters, until this dog, I never considered that compulsion is really just a way of using defensive drives in OB.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I just only feed them in the OB. Longest it ever took was about a week and a half. Man I hated board and trains.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The other thing, where did you get this dog from ?? It sounds awful. Why did you not send it back, and why did you choose to do Sch with a shitter ???

I do not hear work ethic, I hear lame excuse for a shitter. I really really cannot see that thing doing ring, or biting for real. EVER.


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## susan tuck

I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure David Frost, who has trained tons of real world police dogs, has said on more than one occasion that he has no problem with dogs who work and bite in prey drive. 

With regards to "fighting drive", I think Helmut Raiser has it right and I will quote directly from his book, "Der Schutzhund" so as not to **** it up:

"I am of the opinion that the concept known as fighting drive is an oxymoron"

He also says:

"I believe that for our purposes, the term - fighting drive - is a very useful description of a desirable behaviour in the dog. We look for the dog that has fun fighting with the helper. But only a dog who is relatively unstressed when fighting with the helper and does not feel he is constantly fighting for his life can have fun fighting the helper. Inasmuch, I am also of the opinion that what we call fighting drive is an extension of the play drive."

Of course he goes on to further illustrate how a dog must have a good balance of all drives to be successful in the work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You mean prey drive. I have been instructed to tell you this. LOL I have not read Reiser, and only know who he is because people yack about him non stop. : )


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## Edward Egan

susan tuck said:


> I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure David Frost, who has trained tons of real world police dogs, has said on more than one occasion that he has no problem with dogs who work and bite in prey drive.
> 
> With regards to "fighting drive", I think Helmut Raiser has it right and I will quote directly from his book, "Der Schutzhund" so as not to **** it up:
> 
> "I am of the opinion that the concept known as fighting drive is an oxymoron"
> 
> He also says:
> 
> "I believe that for our purposes, the term - fighting drive - is a very useful description of a desirable behaviour in the dog. We look for the dog that has fun fighting with the helper. But only a dog who is relatively unstressed when fighting with the helper and does not feel he is constantly fighting for his life can have fun fighting the helper. Inasmuch, I am also of the opinion that what we call fighting drive is an extension of the play drive."
> 
> Of course he goes on to further illustrate how a dog must have a good balance of all drives to be successful in the work.


I believe what he is saying is that it's not natural for a dog to have fight drive. A dog does not go looking for a fight like a human may. A dog's defense drive is further divided by aggresstion or flight. Either he engages (thinks he can win/eat) or removes himself from the threat (survival instict, find something else to win/eat). To much pressure and the dog says "Shit I can't win this engagement, see you later" The key is at what point does the dog say this? For some dogs the survival instict is too strong (shitter) and others it may be too weak (risks death against insurmountable odds and therefore cannot reproduce).

I've read his book many times, the guy knows what he is talking about.


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## Scott Dunmore

When you say low prey drive and zero food drive, are you talking about your own dog? It seems like a huge stretch to say that such a dog is capable of scoring high points in sch. Do you have any video of your training sessions?

Also, compulsion = using defensive drives in obedience?


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You mean prey drive. I have been instructed to tell you this. LOL I have not read Reiser, and only know who he is because people yack about him non stop. : )


Thanks, of course you are right, prey drive. 

Here is Raiser's bio from the 2008 Masters Tournament. He won that inaugural tourney and then split up a large chunk of his $10,000 prize amongst the other top finishers. He is the guy who started RSV2000.
http://www.2008masterstournament.com/helmut_raiser.html


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## Alyssa Myracle

Scott Dunmore said:


> When you say low prey drive and zero food drive, are you talking about your own dog? It seems like a huge stretch to say that such a dog is capable of scoring high points in sch. Do you have any video of your training sessions?
> 
> Also, compulsion = using defensive drives in obedience?


 
Yep. 
My own dog.

Do I personally consider her prey drive to be "low"? Nope.
This is the opinion of most helpers who have worked her. I personally consider her prey drive to be sufficient. Certainly sufficient enough for me to work with, and sufficient enough that she is able to do bitework.

Food drive isn't necessary to train a dog.
Sure, if the only way you know to train a dog is with food, it might be necessary for YOU to train the dog.

If you know other methods of training, food drive is irrelevant.

I have no video of actual training yet.
I do have a goofy video of her and I dicking around in the backyard.
I shall post it at my own peril.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqCNW6ePIxM


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## Alyssa Myracle

Scott Dunmore said:


> Also, compulsion = using defensive drives in obedience?


It _CAN_.
It depends on the dog.


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## Alyssa Myracle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I do not hear work ethic, I hear lame excuse for a shitter. I really really cannot see that thing doing ring, or biting for real. EVER.


*shrug*
Only time will tell.


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## Julie Blanding

Alyssa Myracle said:


> I'm not saying that prey isn't important, but that people seem to put far too much emphasis on it.
> 
> Breeding very high prey, nervy dogs that in the end, are total flakes under pressure.
> A dog that won't (can't) think for itself.


Just because a dog has high prey does not make it nervy or a total flake.
The strength of nerve has to be there regardless of the motivation level.

Training a dog with little to low prey drive coupled with little to no food drive is a JOB. A crappy job!
Can it be done? Sure. Could you obtain 100 points in each phase ...[-(


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## Alyssa Myracle

Again, we shall see.

I'm not saying prey is bad.
I just see too much emphasis placed on prey.

To the extent that DVDs and seminars are based around building prey.

Prey is important.
Certainly, a dog must have a minimum amount of prey to permit working the dog in the foundation phases.

You can't jump right into defense with a puppy. There must be prey present in quantities that it is willing to chase and bite the rag. 

A foundation must be built, and it will be built on prey.

But it can't all be about prey.
Prey has a short half-life.

When it winds down, what keeps the dog working?

What kept the first Shepherds, herding, long after they were out of prey, or in situations when prey was absent?

Prey is no substitute for a dog with high biddability, a desire to be useful, to work.


Beyond foundation bitework, why is prey necessary?
Why is food drive necessary at all?


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## Edward Egan

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Again, we shall see.
> 
> I'm not saying prey is bad.
> I just see too much emphasis placed on prey.
> 
> To the extent that DVDs and seminars are based around building prey.
> 
> Prey is important.
> Certainly, a dog must have a minimum amount of prey to permit working the dog in the foundation phases.
> 
> You can't jump right into defense with a puppy. There must be prey present in quantities that it is willing to chase and bite the rag.
> 
> A foundation must be built, and it will be built on prey.
> 
> But it can't all be about prey.
> Prey has a short half-life.
> 
> When it winds down, what keeps the dog working?
> 
> What kept the first Shepherds, herding, long after they were out of prey, or in situations when prey was absent?
> 
> Prey is no substitute for a dog with high biddability, a desire to be useful, to work.
> 
> 
> Beyond foundation bitework, why is prey necessary?
> Why is food drive necessary at all?


Seems to me your opions are based on defending your current dogs drives. I watched the video, seems to have prey there. What about on the field?


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## susan tuck

Actually herding instinct is almost all about hunting/prey drive, and it is the intensity of that prey drive that keeps them working. Kirschental GSDs have high prey drives, border collies are high prey drive dogs. To me, a biddable dog is one who is easily trained, nothing to do with drives, though I have always found high prey drive dogs to be easier to train than a dog with low prey drive.


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## Alyssa Myracle

Edward Egan said:


> Seems to me your opions are based on defending your current dogs drives.


No. Although I can see why it seems that way.

I lamented over her low prey drive (and low food drive) for months.
Until I found ways around what I [at the time] considered road blocks.

In finding those ways around, I discovered whole new avenues of working a dog.

It isn't that I'm defending her. It's that she's shown me a new way of approaching training.

She has prey. It's just not what anyone would consider *high* prey.
Among the many people to call her a low prey drive dog were Tracy Betenbaugh, Ken Stupak and Glenn Stephenson.


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## Alyssa Myracle

susan tuck said:


> I have always found high prey drive dogs to be easier to train than a dog with low prey drive.


But is easier, better?


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## todd pavlus

This goes to show how much the mother can add to a dogs genetics. My dog has the same sire as Alyssa's, and he up until this point is very prey, and food driven, would do anything for a ball, and at 20 months, now is starting to show defense, yet still very immature...mentally. A dog has to have prey drive, or any drive for that matter, if you want it to work. Otherwise it would have no desire even leave the house.


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## Guest

Alyssa Myracle said:


> But is easier, better?


My educated guess would be yes. The modern working dog (dual or single purpose) represents a product which is supposed to function properly in the hands of the lowest common denomoninator handler. Time is also money. Sooner is also better.

The simplest, easiest, most direct route to accomplishing some finite objectives is indeed probably the best. That includes using glaringly obvious motivations. 

...From what I've gathered. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Guest

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have something you gotta tinker with to meet the basic objectives of the venue around you in which you're trying to subjectively compete.


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## Alyssa Myracle

Steven Lepic said:


> My educated guess would be yes. The modern working dog (dual or single purpose) represents a product which is supposed to function properly in the hands of the lowest common denomoninator handler. Time is also money. Sooner is also better.
> 
> The simplest, easiest, most direct route to accomplishing some finite objectives is indeed probably the best. That includes using glaringly obvious motivations.
> 
> ...From what I've gathered. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.


 
And now we come down to the crux of it.
It really is subjective, isn't it?

Do we make the dogs more suitable to the handlers, or do we as handlers, become more suitable to the dogs?

It's a matter of preference.

______________________________________

Obviously, my dog has prey drive.
Sufficient, IMO, to get the job done. Some folks feel its lacking. I don't, and I feel those that are of that opinion are putting unnecessary emphasis on prey drive.

That doesn't mean prey isn't important (what is this, like the 12th time I've written that now?)
It just means it isn't the only part of the puzzle, and sometimes people overlook a total package dog, because they feel the prey is lower than they'd like.

Breeding for high prey, and leaving out the other attributes, weakens a breed.

Does the breed survey evaluate prey, or does it evaluate something else entirely.

Is what makes/made Lux, or LORD for that matter, such an impressive dog, prey drive?
Or is it something else? 
Is there something else we're missing, with all the talk of prey and defense and nerve and temperment.

Have you looked into Lux's eyes and seen _IT_?
That immesurable quality, the sum of all things amazing about the breed?

Is there something more to the great dogs, that isn't being quantified, and therefore isn't being bred for?

All dogs take teaching and training.


[I'm not trying to compete in Schutzhund. At least, not in the manner that you mean. I'm measuring my dog against a standard, NOT against other dogs. The standard BTW speaks nothing of high prey drive. Instead it speaks of a dog who is _poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness..._]


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## susan tuck

Of course if we are going to keep a low drive dog, then we adjust our training, but we also have different expectations with this dog. The thing is in looking for an ideal dog, you absolutely want a high prey drive dog, for any grip sport, for police work and for herding. You also want a dog with good nerve, defense, etc., but really prey drive is extremely important, and it has nothing to do with lowering standards either.


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## David Frost

susan tuck said:


> I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure David Frost, who has trained tons of real world police dogs, has said on more than one occasion that he has no problem with dogs who work and bite in prey drive.
> 
> With regards to "fighting drive", I think Helmut Raiser has it right and I will quote directly from his book, "Der Schutzhund" so as not to **** it up:
> 
> "I am of the opinion that the concept known as fighting drive is an oxymoron"
> 
> He also says:
> 
> "I believe that for our purposes, the term - fighting drive - is a very useful description of a desirable behaviour in the dog. We look for the dog that has fun fighting with the helper. But only a dog who is relatively unstressed when fighting with the helper and does not feel he is constantly fighting for his life can have fun fighting the helper. Inasmuch, I am also of the opinion that what we call fighting drive is an extension of the play drive."
> 
> Of course he goes on to further illustrate how a dog must have a good balance of all drives to be successful in the work.


I do say that, but in deference to Herr Reiser, I believe prey drive continues into fight. I do agree it's an "unstressed" situation for the dog. What I've said in the past is; prey drive takes them to the opponent, fight drive keeps them there. I admitted my ignorance of sport dogs, and I believe that the way I understand the discussions relative sport, defense places the dog in stress. I disagree with Herr Reiser that "fight" is "an extension of the play". But then, I haven't had a my book published.


DFrost


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## susan tuck

David: That was my mistake, not Herr Raisers! As Jeff noted I typed PLAY instead of PREY.  (That's what I get for not following protocol, I should have just linked the article in the first place).

Here is a link to the article, in which he describes various drives: http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/drives.html


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## Nathen Danforth

"What kept the first Shepherds, herding, long after they were out of prey, or in situations when prey was absent?"That's just it some dogs have the prey to just keep going, the ones that don't aren't "high" prey drive dogs.Having worked detection that required extremely long unsuccesful searches in high temps and nasty desert scrub I personally witnessed many a dog "keep" going IN prey. Some of those dog's kept going till they collapsed...literally. Weird dog, never showed the classic warning signs of heat exhaustion...just was going one minute and down the next. I think if you don't feel that "prey" can keep a dog going then you have never truley witnessed a "HIGH" prey driven dog.


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## Gillian Schuler

In the link to Schutzhundvillage, the two drives are compared. This is what I learned when I first came to Schutzhund. I don't think much has changed in the dogs' behaviours but I do think that a weakened Schutzhund, maybe pressure on police from the public, the various misguided animal rights' organisations, etc. are changing our behaviours.

*Prey Drive* 
Prey drive is part of a dog's food gathering behaviour. In a predatory animal that means prey drive governs hunting and killing techniques. Chasing, flushing, pouncing, biting, and shaking-to-death, are the most important of these techniques when we are talking about protection training. In order to stimulate these instinctive techniques in the dog, we have to keep in mind what a real prey animal does when it is hunted. Prey is always on the move, it always moves in an evasive fashion, and it is panic-stricken. These behaviours in turn trigger pursuit, pouncing, biting, pulling, and shaking-to-death in the dog. *Prey drive is inborn, and is a trainable instinct, meaning it can be enhanced or reduced. Prey drive can be exhausted*, meaning that a time will come when the dog "doesn't feel like performing the desired behaviours any more." Author's note: Considering the serious effects the end result of this drive would have on a prey animal, I do not subscribe to the idea that prey work is only a silly game. 
*Defense Drive *
Defense drive counts as one of the dog's aggression behaviours, and it can appear in conjunction with other behaviours. Threatening, staring, and biting are typical defensive reactions. Defense behaviour is generally triggered by threats, real or perceived, or open aggression. The goal of defense behaviour is always to create avoidance behaviour in the threatener. Defense drive may appear as defense of prey, defense of puppies, defense of territory, defense against the unfamiliar, or self-defense. The drive is satisfied in each case when the aggressor shows avoidance behaviour. *Defense drive is not subject to exhaustion, so it can be activated at will.* It should, therefore, be part of the combative behaviour of any protection dog. Furthermore, it is responsible for behaviours like countering when under stress or when threatened. The great danger when working a dog in defense drive is that the same stimuli which cause defense behaviour also cause avoidance behaviour. Which of the two possible behaviours is displayed by a dog when a trigger stimulus is presented is dependant on a variety of factors, among them confidence and temperament of the dog as well as the threatener, "life" experiences of the dog, age and maturity of the dog, location (unfamiliar or home turf), distance between adversaries, and the presence of other external influences (prey, mate, puppies). Author's note: Hopefully this allows people to see defense for the double-edged sword it is. Defense is one part of protection training. The idea that good dogs should only be worked in defense is a dangerous one which has wrecked many great dogs.


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## Daryl Ehret

There are still some that will keep going until they drop, or you do first.


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## Gillian Schuler

Are you referring to the thread or the dog's stamina?


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## Daryl Ehret

How about "prey stamina"? ;-) Stamina, yes, but with the prey drive clearly behind it.

Or "focusing stamina", prior to a dog attempting to shut down during obedience excercises? I've had some dogs that would tire, and not key on me after lengthy sessions, others that never ever quit.


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## Lisa Morris

"What is a weak prey dog or a weak defence dog - bad nerves??"

A pet!


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## Kadi Thingvall

I'm not sure I agree with either of the bolded portions.



Gillian Schuler said:


> *Prey drive is inborn, and is a trainable instinct, meaning it can be enhanced or reduced. Prey drive can be exhausted*, meaning that a time will come when the dog "doesn't feel like performing the desired behaviours any more."


I've seen more then one dog's prey take them to the edge of death, and unfortunately in a few cases to the point where the dog did die (didn't witness it, but heard about it). Dogs that will go until they heat stroke, some recovered, some didn't. I've owned dogs that would do it, if I didn't watch them closely and force them to stop before they heat stroked. 



> Defense drive may appear as defense of prey, defense of puppies, defense of territory, defense against the unfamiliar, or self-defense. The drive is satisfied in each case when the aggressor shows avoidance behaviour. *Defense drive is not subject to exhaustion, so it can be activated at will.* It should, therefore, be part of the combative behaviour of any protection dog.


Defense can definitely be affected by exhaustion. I'm not sure they mean physical exhaustion here but since they were talking about exhaustion in the first section ... I've seen plenty of dogs that will come out strong with they are "fresh" but after a few times, they start to tire, and flight becomes the behavior of choice. Especially if they don't win right away the first few times. Unless they mean a dog in complete avoidance is also in defense? I read the article as meaning a dog working (ie going forward, biting, protecting, etc) in defense, not a dog trying to flee.


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## Gillian Schuler

Daryl :wink: Not bad!

I had one years ago that shut down and refused to budge. He didn't have delicate nerves but all I knew of at the time was "Do what I say or... and he answered in his way.

Once I'd realised what motivation was, the next one, also dismissive of my "hammer" methods, just shut down but didn't refuse to budge. Eventually, with this dog, I saw the error of my ways and afterwards I only had to raise my eyebrows before working with him and he was "all there".


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## Gillian Schuler

He actually says that defence is not subject to exhaustion (i.e. recallable at will).

I'm sure there are exceptions: hounds following prey, wild dogs with pups to feed, etc. etc. but in relation to Schutzhund, prey drive is "known" to be exhaustible, i.e. not always recallable.


Originally Posted by *Jeff Oehlsen*  
_have you considered the reason he is all prey is because he is not scared ?? If the defense threshold is high enough to keep him in prey, then what is the big deal ??_


_*I'm trying to get my head round this - I'm thinking!!*_


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
What kept the first Shepherds, herding, long after they were out of prey, or in situations when prey was absent?

First off, I do think that new handlers make shit up to compensate for a dogs "lack" and I see this way more in women than men, although there are enough that seem to feel this is acceptable, so I expect reality to disapate within the next ten years or so.

Your dogs "lack" of prey might very well be YOUR fault, lol I thought it was pretty cool that you had the guts to post that video of your dog, but who ever told you to label that "foundation work" is ****ed in the head. That has nothing to do with foundation work, and shows me just about everything that is probably "wrong" with your dog. LOL

YOU taught her to inhibit. LOL What thought process did you use when coming up with whatever you need to call that thing with the soccer ball ???

You skipped how many steps on the way ??

Amazing what you can see in a video.

As far as drives are concerned, there really is no reason to try and explain, drives are not quantative, in other words the more you explain, the muddier it gets, not clearer.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I also never really got an answer about having to "add" defense, or make scared a dog so that it will stay in the fight. I do not see or hear, about police dogs having to fight a subject for any length of time, so once again, why are you making a dog scared, or even worse attempting to make a dog scared for better training. LOL

Also, Alyssa, the fact that you say you had to correct that dog till your uneducated eye sees defense is an abomination. There is no reason that dog should not just work for you. Re-evaluate everything you think you know about dogs, as I just think you don't get it. 

I am not kidding, or trying to be a smart ass.


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## Gillian Schuler

I'll have one last shot at asking questions:

If he is all prey because he is not scared?? If the defense threshold is high enough to keep him in prey.....

The opposite of this is a dog with low prey but not necessarily low defense threshold? Some dogs are not fighting because they are scared but because they enjoy dominating the helper?

I think it's more complex than this but I haven't got enough experience, expertise, etc. to put it down on paper.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I find that most dogs that appear to be fighting, are just trying to get the sleeve from the helper. Occasionally, I see a dog that is doing his best to keep the helper from doing anything. One video I saw, I think it was Tom van Leefdahl......whatever, in Boston I think was a good example of "WTF" ????

He was skidding on his back legs to keep the helper from going forward, but was that fighting ?? Or was it trying to get the sleeve ???

With all the behavior shaping that goes on in Sch, and sports in general, it is a fun thing to try and figure out. I really enjoy watching when the dog, despite training to the contrary, does his own thing regardless of what "WE" think it is.


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> As far as drives are concerned, there really is no reason to try and explain, drives are not quantative, in other words the more you explain, the muddier it gets, not clearer.



That is a pretty darn good statement. "Enough" would not be a quatitative measurement, yet it's fully acceptable by an experienced trainer. It (enough) is exactly what we look for when evaluating a dog.

DFrost


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## Daryl Ehret

I have a loose theory here: There is a direct correlation between a dog's prey drive, and its ability to focus its attention. Stronger prey drive accomanies the more "sensory attuned" specimens. This is NOT to say that they are necessarily clear-headed or stable, nor to assume that they are "sharp". Just that, better outward focus (visually) seems to come from dogs with good strong prey drive.

Ever wonder if different dogs have preferred sensory modalities? Like, maybe the dog that doesn't offer a lot of attention heeling behavior, is more keyed into your body language or vocal tone. Might never be "point" getters, the sports shun them as undesireable, so we select _against them_ on that basis alone.


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## James Downey

Daryl Ehret said:


> I have a loose theory here: There is a direct correlation between a dog's prey drive, and its ability to focus its attention. Stronger prey drive accomanies the more "sensory attuned" specimens. This is NOT to say that they are necessarily clear-headed or stable, nor to assume that they are "sharp". Just that, better outward focus (visually) seems to come from dogs with good strong prey drive.
> 
> Ever wonder if different dogs have preferred sensory modalities? Like, maybe the dog that doesn't offer a lot of attention heeling behavior, is more keyed into your body language or vocal tone. Might never be "point" getters, the sports shun them as undesireable, so we select _against them_ on that basis alone.


Daryl I think the theory applies to the majority of dogs...But I have seen Malinois lines....especially from Lupus. That the puppies even 3 or 4 generations later that have strong prey, but seem to have the looky loo's. From puppy on, I think that this could be a way thay nerves manifest themselves. The dog has high prey, but still maybe concerned about the enviorment and this is an avoidance technique.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

James Downey said:


> the looky loo's. From puppy on, I think that this could be a way thay nerves manifest themselves. The dog has high prey, but still maybe concerned about the enviorment and this is an avoidance technique.


RE- Looky Loo's

Do you think this always means avoidance? Maybe you can exlpain or post a video of the "looky loos"?

Thanks,

Julie


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## Daryl Ehret

I really didn't mean a wandering attention either, rather a "locked on" focus. Wandering attention I'd think is more of a sensitivity linked with sharpness. Funny thing, that I would say a dog could carry both characteristics --intense, but also distractable.


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## Vendo Vincent

Truth is I get confused with "drives". Might be simple minded. I get it - I see drives as stings on a puppet.

I personally am not after the hardest dog. Not after the most dominant dog, Not after a over the top highly driven dog. I can handle that type of dog , but being lazy - why put up with it. I am put quit simply after the most "workable dog" - Balanced in nature or at least one I can balance.

I participate in K9 Pro Sport and find that high drive work but you need that balance in your dog. - Sorry I do not have the words for it so I use balance to describe what I see in his attitude when we compete. He is what he is and when he is balanced I can rely that we will work well. 

Maybe I think that is the difference. In PP you have to have a strong connection with your dog you have to rely on his decision making as well and commands. Where as other dog sports you constantly have your fingers on the stings to achieve you goals - maybe bit of an over generalisation


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## Jim Nash

Jeff asked in response to the below quote ; 

" '' I think for most dogs that have ANY amount of defense you have to teach it that it can still stay in the fight when they start feeling defensive and win the fight . They have to experiance some defense to learn that they can win while in an engagement that pushes them into defense . For me this is working a dog up through prey then later slowly adding more defense as we progress . ''

Ok, then devil's advocate, Just how long do you leave your dogs on a guy ?? If a dog is crushing like you are saying, due to high prey drive, what is the likelyhood that the dog is on a guy long enough for the guy to put it in defense ?? You guys pretty much don't go out all by yourselves, so lets just say that the bad guy is all whatevered up, how long is that dog there by himself ??

And for the record, the prey dogs that you guys had, when training defense, how did they react to it??? "



Usually in most apprehensions by the K9 they are not on the suspect very long but it depends on the suspect and if he cooperates . I'm not sure if the 2 dogs I spoke about earlier have ever been on a suspect long enough to put them into defense . They would have to be on the suspect a very long time for that to happen , IMO . I know both have done battle with lots of suspects and have been in some long tough fights though . 

As for training defense with these 2 K9's I was never able to put them into defense that I could see . No matter how hard I tried . I'm not sure about some if the other 4 trainers in the unit were ever able to push them into defense .


It depends on the dog if prey or defence is a good or bad thing in how they handle or operate under either drive in a real situation . 

Some prey dogs won't have a problem engaging a real real badguy even when presure is put on them . Same with some highly defensive dogs will stay in the fight when more presure is put on them . They can stay in a highly defensive state(and not be pushed further into defense even if they are getting more presure from the badguy) and stay in a strong battle with the suspect .

Genetics plays a big part in this obviously but balanced training(dependant on each individual K9's traits) is what helps bring it out and improve the dogs confidence and ability to engage someone for real . 

Some SPORT trainers see a K9 blast a decoy running down field and believe that because of that it would engage a person for real if called upon . Most will never find themselves in that position to be proven wrong and as a result will contiue to spout their beliefs to the uneducated . These folks are then used as examples by PP folks as why SPORT training and prey drive sucks .

Some PP trainers will see a K9 that looks very intimidating at the end of a leash and because of this believe their K9 will engage for real also and most will never be put into a position where their highly defensive training will be put to the test for real and be proven wrong . So like the SPORT person I spoke of earlier they too will continue to spout their unproven beliefs in the strengths of defense and highly defensive training . These PP folks are then used by some Sport folks as an example why PP training and in defense sucks . 

There are unproven uneducated PSD trainers that can fall into either one of these catagories also , so I'm not just taking shots at PP or SPORT folks . 

Alot of prey drive isn't too much . Alot of defense isn't too much . It's only too much if the dog can't handle it and bails from a real fight . 



There are trainers in both fields that get that balanced training based on each K9's individual traits is what produces a dog that can commit to a person for real . 

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't OVER GENERALIZE prey or defensive training or drives in a K9 . Get to know the individual K9 and adjust the amount of prey and/or defensive training to that particular dog .


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## Jerry Lyda

Perfect Jim. Very well said. Only the real situation can give the correct answer. Every dog has a breaking point, every dog. Never push them that far or put more on them than they can handle in this point of their training. With more pressure and more training the better a dog will get just NOT too much too fast.


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## Bob Scott

Excellent post Jim!


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## Don Turnipseed

So, how do you work a guardian class dog in prey? I would have to assume they don't have a prey drive.


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## Vendo Vincent

Great post Jim. Very imformative.

Thanks


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What are the odds that what people call defense isn't defense at all ?? Our current terminology is piss poor at best when describing itself, and then you have each individuals interpretation of said drive.

What I am curious about, how much of what we see in a dog is what the dogs trainers want to promote ?? For example trainer A could care less if the dog shows his teeth or barks a certain way, just that the dog does the job.

Trainer B likes to see the dog display these things, but the dog quickly learns after the first or second session that showing these behaviors gets him the reward.

Lets just say that both trainers get the job done, and that their dogs are not that much different, and all go on to be on a dept.

So when the dept or whoever, goes and looks at these dogs, they will push the one dog, and he will show the teeth and whatever, but never has really went into defense, but he sure as hell is an intense SOB.

Then they test the other dog, and the dog does not show teeth and whatever, but he sure as hell is intense.

Did we really see defense, or a trained response from the foundation work ??

Having worked a lot of dogs when the teeth and the bark were the way to go, I did notice after a while that the dog recognized that we were not going to go past point X, and was not in what I recognize as defense at all from that point on.

The first dog that I trained without worrying about the teeth and the bark was an intense dog, but never seemed to be anything but happy out there getting slammed around and rolling around on the ground was fine.

I did a lot of PP work in the late 80's and 90's. I worked a lot of dogs that were not.....well were shitters. I also did a lot of experimenting with these dogs, and while on a completely different level, as this sort of dog shows what is going on in his head a LOT more than the non shitters, they too could get to the point where they showed the teeth and the bark, OR just bit, and you never saw the teeth and the bark. Of course if you pushed them real hard, they just left.

I don't think that dogs are all that smart, never have, however, at some point you have to concede that the dog is gonna figure out that your threats are bullshit, but since you did have those first few moments, they will respond with the " appropriate" facial expressions.

Long way of saying that the dog that seems to go into defense, might just be showing you the face he was taught to show.

Something to seriously think about.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

As a side note about the "shitters" how many people know dogs that work real well on a familiar decoy, but won't bite someone new, or with presence ??

I think that at some level, and I know I am not saying this right, the same thing has happened to a much better dog that doesn't quit, but shows the right expression.


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## Jim Nash

I see drives as a way to make it easier to explain things in dog training . But with the strong biases that are now formed about drives and the many different definitions of drives it's made explaining things harder nowadays . 

Whenever I ca I like to break it down to what I think the dog is feeling at the moment we are concerned about in training . I'd rather not use drives anymore but rather the dogs individual bahaviors that tell me what it may be feeling at the moment . From there you can workout a training solution being something that may make the dog feel more confident to one that may push it into feeling not so confident . Depends on the issue . 

Drive speak worked great for me years ago but now IMO it sucks . Way to bogged down in biases and different interpretations .


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## Dwyras Brown

I agree with Jim. There are way too many interpretations for each drive. I don't use the terms a lot anymore. They have become pretty useless.


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## susan tuck

Dwyras Brown said:


> I agree with Jim. There are way too many interpretations for each drive. I don't use the terms a lot anymore. They have become pretty useless.


Me three, I agree with Jim.


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## Alyssa Myracle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Also, Alyssa, the fact that you say you had to correct that dog till your uneducated eye sees defense is an abomination. There is no reason that dog should not just work for you. Re-evaluate everything you think you know about dogs, as I just think you don't get it.
> 
> I am not kidding, or trying to be a smart ass.


Show me where I said I corrected my dog (ever) until she showed defense.
You're misconstruing entirely what I said.

I assumed the position that corrections appeal to the dog's defense drive, and are essentially bringing an element of defense into OB.

If this is not so, then what is it?
Why do corrections work? It must be appealing to some innate desire in the dog, as well as causing the dog to adopt a certain mental posture. So which is it? Clearly not prey.

Why, when some dogs are overcorrected, do they come up the leash, and other go into avoidance? If defense occurs prior to avoidance (or if avoidance is the extreme end of defense, either or, depending on how you want to term it), then isn't it logical to assume that prior to the avoidance and/or coming up the leash, the dog was already functioning in defense on some (mild) level?

Like I said, either I'll put a 3 on my dog (and hopefully continue beyond into Ring), OR, I'll come back with my tail tucked and take my corrections like a good pup.


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## Vendo Vincent

Jim Nash said:


> I see drives as a way to make it easier to explain things in dog training . But with the strong biases that are now formed about drives and the many different definitions of drives it's made explaining things harder nowadays .
> 
> Whenever I ca I like to break it down to what I think the dog is feeling at the moment we are concerned about in training . I'd rather not use drives anymore but rather the dogs individual bahaviors that tell me what it may be feeling at the moment . From there you can workout a training solution being something that may make the dog feel more confident to one that may push it into feeling not so confident . Depends on the issue .
> 
> Drive speak worked great for me years ago but now IMO it sucks . Way to bogged down in biases and different interpretations .


I do not feel so stupid now. If some one with your experience thinks the same way........ might be hope for me yet.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Allysa, are you ****ing kidding me ?? You do not get this ?? =D> =D> 

Go back to door number one and start over. Appeal to defense drive ?? OH MY GOD YOU ARE KILLING ME.

Who trained you ?? That is pathetic.


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## susan tuck

Alyssa Myracle said:


> I assumed the position that corrections appeal to the dog's defense drive, and are essentially bringing an element of defense into OB.
> 
> If this is not so, then what is it?
> Why do corrections work? It must be appealing to some innate desire in the dog, as well as causing the dog to adopt a certain mental posture. So which is it? Clearly not prey.
> 
> Why, when some dogs are overcorrected, do they come up the leash, and other go into avoidance? If defense occurs prior to avoidance (or if avoidance is the extreme end of defense, either or, depending on how you want to term it), then isn't it logical to assume that prior to the avoidance and/or coming up the leash, the dog was already functioning in defense on some (mild) level?


Are you saying you think the fight/flight response, which can be triggered by pushing a dog in defense is the same as what is triggered in handler aggression or sulking? In my opinon, handler aggression and sulking are more a matter of a dog learning to manipulate it's handler than any automatic response triggered by an innate drive. A dog who has punked it's owner has learned handler aggression stops the action, same as a dog who learns sulking will stop an undersirable action.


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## Jim Nash

Susan , 

I believe it depends on the dog . Some handler aggression is like you say and sometimes it's because the dog thinks it's protecting itself .


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## susan tuck

Does this now move into the realm of nerve stress reactions when we are speaking of how a dog handles corrections? Or am I simply starting to confuse myself? (which would be nothing new!):-k


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## Jim Nash

Nerve stress reactions ?! Too deep for me .

Simply put some dogs are getting it's butt kicked or thinks it's getting it's butt kicked and thinks it is about to die so it comes after the handler to protect itself . Others do like you were saying to manipulate the handler to get out of something or achieve some goal for itself .

From my experiance it's usual done to protect itself . I have seen some good con dogs though .


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## Courtney Guthrie

Ummm...Can someone PLEASE come tell my insanely PREY driven dog that he is a Nervebag and a shitter????? PLEASE. Also can you tell him that he is easy to train and that he has no defense???? 

Seriously, I just read 12 pages of some good stuff, some OK and some horrid stuff. 

I personally would NEVER train a dog in OB with compulsion and neither would ANY of the trainers I've trained with. One being a top ranked K9 trainer. 

I feel that you need a little of prey and defense to succeed in the sport world. To me I want a dog that is insanely prey driven but has that hint of defense in the right situation. TO ME, ANY GOOD dog should have that. That's my opinion though. BUT I have a dog that will BITE whatever is in his way to get to the sleeve and if the sleeve isn't presented he'll bite the person. Not ideal but he is workable. He is my first Schutzhund dog that I've trained from a puppy with the sole purpose of competing in mind. I have a lot to learn yet. 

Alyssa- I know where your dog comes from and IF she doesn't have PREY drive then I'd say it is handler errors that created it as I have a friend that has a littermate to her that has prey drive out the ass. But the club you train with is also lacking in a lot of areas so that may be your main problem and WHY you think defense is the only worthwhile drive. 

Courtney


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## maggie fraser

_Alyssa- I know where your dog comes from and IF she doesn't have PREY drive then I'd say it is handler errors that created it as I have a friend that has a littermate to her that has prey drive out the ass_.

I had been led to believe that in most if not all litters, there was generally at least one that didn't have pronounced drives. I'm maybe wrong?

Sorry to go off topic.


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## Courtney Guthrie

That can be true, but to have no prey drive and over the top defense as Alyssa makes it sound. I know the lines and breeding and I personally can't see it. I also know the club that she trains with and if you ask ANY reputable trainer in the state, you are told to RUN away from them that it is better to have no trainer than a club like this one is. 

Since I have first hand knowledge of the dogs hers comes from as well as the club she trains with, I think, IMO, that it is club/training problems NOT a dog lacking drive problem. 

Courtney


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