# To breed or not to breed



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

HI Guys,
In a situation where you have seen a dog you like-great drives,nerves etc. and you see a littermate that has great prey drive but not very good nerves, avoiding the helper in defence, would you go ahead and breed the other dog?
I don't expect all the dogs in a litter to be ass kickers but in that kind of situation do you think its ok to go ahead and breed the dog?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I wouldn't weigh the nerve stability of a sibling against a different dog for breedworthiness. There's too much else that needs to go right already.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'd want to know about the rest of the litter, if the information was available. Is the dog being considered for breeding the only dog in the litter with solid nerves? Or is he one of many, and the nervy sibling is the oddity?

Assuming the dog in question isn't the only decent nerved dog in the litter, I wouldn't not breed him, just based on the littermate. Not saying I would breed him either, I'd need to know more about the dog, but the littermate wouldn't make me skip him.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm not, and doubtful if I'll ever be a breeder so this comment applies to looking at pups. I personally would do the same with breeding IF I ever ventured into it. .
If one pup in a litter shows nerve issues I wont look any further at that litter. It tells me there could very well be genetic issues in the lines.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Sibling comparisons are only a fraction of the research needed in the selection of a sire or dam in a breeding. Parents & grandparents often give a better idea of a dog's potential. There are cases where the skittish/nervy dog is the oddity of his littermates, and it may not even be due to genetics. A severe trauma as a pup may have ruined it as a dog. Experience has taught me that a dog that some would call a nervebag in one handler's hands, if given the time & benefit of another handler and constructive treatment could turn out to be a really nice dog for work. So really if you're looking @ genes in re nerves or temperament, sibs can give an idea about a littermate. But for a more detailed report, the parents & lineage will let you know for sure what you'd end up with.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

The dog in question isn't exactly 'nervy'. He did well in his VPG trial but in another video, they showed him doing some civil agitation tests and in one of the tests he went behind the handler as the decoy began to threaten him.
He had no issues with being petted by a stranger, large objects being thrown around him etc.. His littermate on the other hand is high everything--prey drive, aggression, hunt etc.
as a side note, it goes to show how 'effective' some sports can be in evaluating 'breed worthiness'.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

This is the dog's VPG trial video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88fcod7rUb0

this is the dog during civil agitation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ZZeg609uE&feature=related


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm not, and doubtful if I'll ever be a breeder so this comment applies to looking at pups. I personally would do the same with breeding IF I ever ventured into it. .
> If one pup in a litter shows nerve issues I wont look any further at that litter. It tells me there could very well be genetic issues in the lines.


There are genetic issues with every line and every breeding. If one puppy shows some issues, at least you might be to see the issues. Also the dog that shows the issue can be used in test breedings with outside dogs to see what new blood eliminates or diminishes the issue. 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Well he is obviously not a go-getter, but that coulda been the first time he has seen something like that...hard to say...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I wouldn't, just because the dog is the son or daughter or garndson or granddaughter of so and so or a half litter mate to so and so or a litter mate of so and so does *NOT MAKE THAT DOG BREED WORTHY.* 

Its all cool and great to mention these dogs, but does not make that dog as any better, equal to or worse of that dog, it drives me nutts when people say I am breeding this dog because its the blah blah blah of so and so, who gives a flying shit.

My opinion is the genetics are there great, dog has great health great, the dog is a worker great, But now its time to base that dog as a *INDIVIDUAL* dog. just because the littermates might of been sweet dogs doesnt say your dog isnt a piece of crap or a machine working fool. 

So I say HELL NO, you don't breed no matter how the rest of the litter was, if the dogs got some kind of issues they dont do it. I had some pups now that are three and are working on a official level, there was a female in that litter that I gave to my inlaws for club level dog, theres no amount of money I would ever ever breed that bitch. Matter of fact shes fixed now because of that reason, to reassure no mishaps happen at there home.

If the dog is not the full working package and all, then to me its not a dog worth or ever worth breeding and reproducing itself.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Harry, you have the situation backwards. The dog they were asking about is the "super" dog, who has a not so super littermate. They were asking how much the littermate would play in the equation. Not if they should breed the not so super littermate, because it's from the same litter as a super dog.


I bet people might be surprised if they looked at the littermates of some of the big name stud dogs, regardless of breed. There are litters out there were every dog is great, but in general, just like the litter you mentioned, you get a few great ones, a few good ones, and a few mediocre ones.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I look at the individual dog. If the dog is excellent in every way - temperament is open/confident, no nerve problems around people, objects, noises or surfaces, good nerves under stress ie civil work/defense - good drives, health, structure etc "the total package" then yes I would breed to that dog depending on the pedigree vs. my female's pedigree and his temperament vs. my females' temperament and so on. Lots of things to consider but considering the nervey sibling, though it is on the list it isn't near the top. I would consider the sibling's bad nerves (or bad hips, other problems etc) but not throw the baby out with the bathwater when looking at the dog without any nerve problems for breeding. 
using this dog as an example having only seen the nervey sibling, I certainly wouldn't consider HIM for breeding and don't consider HIM breedworthy. But I would consider the stronger sibling depending on the other factors to consider along with nerve strength.

molly


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I see now the OP could be read one of two ways.

1. Do I discount the sound dog because a sibling was nervy?

2. Do I breed the nervy dog because the rest were OK?

I thought you meant the #1 option, because a #2 is worth just that :-D


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Harry, you have the situation backwards. The dog they were asking about is the "super" dog, who has a not so super littermate. They were asking how much the littermate would play in the equation. Not if they should breed the not so super littermate, because it's from the same litter as a super dog.
> 
> 
> I bet people might be surprised if they looked at the littermates of some of the big name stud dogs, regardless of breed. There are litters out there were every dog is great, but in general, just like the litter you mentioned, you get a few great ones, a few good ones, and a few mediocre ones.


Kadi,
Many thanks for understanding and explaining. By the way i like that you are not breed biased also.
Honestly, after looking at the VPG video and looking at the civil agitation i was just perplexed.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Harry, you have the situation backwards. The dog they were asking about is the "super" dog, who has a not so super littermate. They were asking how much the littermate would play in the equation. Not if they should breed the not so super littermate, because it's from the same litter as a super dog.
> 
> 
> I bet people might be surprised if they looked at the littermates of some of the big name stud dogs, regardless of breed. There are litters out there were every dog is great, but in general, just like the litter you mentioned, you get a few great ones, a few good ones, and a few mediocre ones.


 
:lol::lol:;-) my bad thanks


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Kadi,
> Many thanks for understanding and explaining. By the way i like that you are not breed biased also.
> Honestly, after looking at the VPG video and looking at the civil agitation i was just perplexed.


There was no "prey object" (sleeve)
Not what anyone wants to see as a response, but like I said who knows the history of the dog, it might have been raised to be super friendly, and only did sport, and never was agitated like that...it is possible...or he is a crapper 

I used to do PP events, I saw some dogs that were good sport dogs crumble on my fields..and we did not even pressure them much...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I see now the OP could be read one of two ways.
> 
> 1. Do I discount the sound dog because a sibling was nervy?
> 
> ...


Ohh I meant the first one of course, i believe every dog is an individual.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Looking @ the first vid, IMO that bit of avoidance wasn't the dog's fault entirely. He looks green, & a person coming at him with both hands raised would more likely intimidate, not agitate.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> There was no "prey object" (sleeve)
> Not what anyone wants to see as a response, but like I said who knows the history of the dog, it might have been raised to be super friendly, and only did sport, and never was agitated like that...it is possible...or he is a crapper
> 
> I used to do PP events, I saw some dogs that were good sport dogs crumble on my fields..and we did not even pressure them much...


Have seen this many of times


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Ohh I meant the first one of course, i believe every dog is an individual.


Its good to see you write that sir


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> There was no "prey object" (sleeve)
> Not what anyone wants to see as a response, but like I said who knows the history of the dog, it might have been raised to be super friendly, and only did sport, and never was agitated like that...it is possible...or he is a crapper


I would agree with that statement. The dog seemed very social. 
Other then going behind the handler I didn't see any real fear on the dog. Maybe confusion and a lot of WTF! Recovery was also very casual and non concerned.
Without knowing the dog I would say "potential" good dog. Breed worthy is another story that a couple of simple behaviors on videos can't really show.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Its good to see you write that sir


I apologize if i wasn't initially clear, its the result of working on different tabs at a time....... a 19 year old sir:-k


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The biggest factor if judging two sibs is how tightly are they bred for how many generations.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I apologize if i wasn't initially clear, its the result of working on different tabs at a time....... a 19 year old sir:-k


Figured I go into rare form and be politically correct and use the term sir, If nothing else take it as a compliment that someone twice your age called you sir  ,you mean your not my lost daddy sir[-o<, just kidding. Was just trying to let you know that we were cool and I apologize if I miss understood your post as well. Its good to see you base a dog on a individual basis.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Figured I go into rare form and be politically correct and use the term sir, If nothing else take it as a compliment that someone twice your age called you sir  ,you mean your not my lost daddy sir[-o<, just kidding. Was just trying to let you know that we were cool and I apologize if I miss understood your post as well. Its good to see you base a dog on a individual basis.


Ohh i get it now.....All the Best.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I agree with the people who said the dog was confused. He never really felt threatened by the decoy, she came back and grabbed the leash. The dog recovered well from the work and the barrel. As far as the breeding goes I don't see a problem if you are using this vid as a judge of character. The dog didn't show well but didn't show badly


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I agree with the people who said the dog was confused. He never really felt threatened by the decoy, she came back and grabbed the leash. The dog recovered well from the work and the barrel. As far as the breeding goes I don't see a problem if you are using this vid as a judge of character. The dog didn't show well but didn't show badly


I agree..but if it is really just a lack of exposure, I would take 2-3 sessions to expose him to that, if he is a decent dog, it should be easily fixed...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree..but if it is really just a lack of exposure, I would take 2-3 sessions to expose him to that, if he is a decent dog, it should be easily fixed...



Fix it? It ain't broken. Just because one of the kids from South Park has a few spasms does not mean the dog should kill'em. Give the dog a real threat, off of the training field, and you might see a different picture.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Fix it? It ain't broken. Just because one of the kids from South Park has a few spasms does not mean the dog should kill'em. Give the dog a real threat, off of the training field, and you might see a different picture.


that is what I meant... 

I dont care if the dog is in defense or whatever..just as long as it doesnt run or do what this dog did..

take the gloves off...see whats there..


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

The video didn't show a dog with poor nerve, but it did show a dog that IMO has poor character. This dog has seen agitation on the field, so it's not totally oblivious to what was going on, it just decided to avoid the confrontation. I would have a different opinion if the dog sat there looking at the agitator confidently without reaction, that dog had no interest in protecting it's self or it's handler.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> The video didn't show a dog with poor nerve, but it did show a dog that IMO has poor character. This dog has seen agitation on the field, so it's not totally oblivious to what was going on, it just decided to avoid the confrontation. I would have a different opinion if the dog sat there looking at the agitator confidently without reaction, that dog had no interest in protecting it's self or it's handler.


I don't think the dog ever felt threatened. the decoy does no defensive postures. Anyone know how old this dog is? the dogs ears don't go down, tail not between its legs and the hackles don't do anything


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Uh, yeah. I personally did not feel agitiated looking at that agitator. The "acting" or agitation part sucks. If you're going to do that you have to convince the dog and/or handler that they're being hunted or stalked or in danger or whatever. It just doesn't work out if you can't do that very well. I suck at it, so I don't even try. I let the experts do their thing. It would have been nice to see the dog perform with a better actor/actress. This could have possibly turned out differently w/ good agitation. _I 'm not sure too many people can judge the nerve effectively from this video._


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Uh, yeah. I personally did not feel agitiated looking at that agitator. The "acting" or agitation part sucks. If you're going to do that you have to convince the dog and/or handler that they're being hunted or stalked or in danger or whatever. It just doesn't work out if you can't do that very well. I suck at it, so I don't even try. I let the experts do their thing. It would have been nice to see the dog perform with a better actor/actress. This could have possibly turned out differently w/ good agitation. _I 'm not sure too many people can judge the nerve effectively from this video._


I was gonna say the same thing about the nerve...and the agitation

Not even sure if you can judge the confidence or courage either, let alone nerve...which I think are not all the same...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> The video didn't show a dog with poor nerve, but it did show a dog that IMO has poor character. This dog has seen agitation on the field, so it's not totally oblivious to what was going on, it just decided to avoid the confrontation.


What confrontation?!? The dog may simply not understand what is going on. Maybe the dog was naturally a bit sharp and reactive when young and got the snot beat out of him for it. Maybe he dosen't know that he is allowed to be aggressive in this circumstance. 

BTW, how do you know the dog has seen agitation on that field?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Christopher,

There are couple of other video's of the dog being tested. The dog is back tied and agitated by a different person and the dog goes into avoidance. I would assume any dog that is worked on a Sch. field as seen some form of aggitation during training, could be wrong though. Regardless of how good a job the person did in the video, I would still expect a dog to stand it's ground. The person approached the handler in a suspicious manner and hit the handler. I consider that to be confrontational and would expect a dog to react accordingly. If the dog is decent then the handler did a shitty job preparing it for the evaluation.

There are several other video's of other dogs doing the same test on youtube with far more impressive results.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Christopher,
> 
> There are couple of other video's of the dog being tested. The dog is back tied and agitated by a different person and the dog goes into avoidance. I would assume any dog that is worked on a Sch. field as seen some form of aggitation during training, could be wrong though. Regardless of how good a job the person did in the video, I would still expect a dog to stand it's ground. The person approached the handler in a suspicious manner and hit the handler. I consider that to be confrontational and would expect a dog to react accordingly. If the dog is decent then the handler did a shitty job preparing it for the evaluation.
> 
> There are several other video's of other dogs doing the same test on youtube with far more impressive results.


as I said..not what most or any of us would want to see...but there is a sliver of a chance the dog was not properly prepped...I still say if the dog is good, 2-3 days would solve it...


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> as I said..not what most or any of us would want to see...but there is a sliver of a chance the dog was not properly prepped...I still say if the dog is good, 2-3 days would solve it...


I agree... 2 - 3 days. IF he's good, it's an easy fix.


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