# is this normal for a knpv puppy at 9 weeks?



## Michael Murphy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYfN9hxI2io

can anyone post a video of a standard 7 week old knpv puppy, in prey, just so i have an idea of the expectations i should have


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYfN9hxI2io
> 
> can anyone post a video of a standard 7 week old knpv puppy, in prey, just so i have an idea of the expectations i should have


that is very normal and average looking, if your puppy does not do that you should be highly dissappointed. :-\"


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## Michael Murphy

lol be serious joby, this is important . i need something to compare my next puppy to. i dont want to go in with too high or too low an expectation.
so videos of what to look for and explanations would be appreciated.
especially from people who breed or have tested heaps of litters. 
it would be great if i could go into the selection process with a list of boxes to tick as well as my instincts


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## rick smith

i predict your "instincts" will drive your decision to buy or not to buy, 
- a LOT more than the boxes you check off made up from online advice and vids you watched, no matter how many boxes you have compiled ....


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> lol be serious joby, this is important . i need something to compare my next puppy to. i dont want to go in with too high or too low an expectation.
> so videos of what to look for and explanations would be appreciated.
> especially from people who breed or have tested heaps of litters.
> it would be great if i could go into the selection process with a list of boxes to tick as well as my instincts


Michael! Seriously! My god man.... Compare your next pup to? Really? And what if it doesn't come out the way you thought it would, then what? Bad litter? Bad breeder? Any pup, no matter how fiesty or docile, no matter the bloodline, is only as good as the hand that feeds and raises it. Stop looking for that high drive, full digging bite, excellent nosed beast of a pup and wait for a pup that SUITS you and work with that! 

Stop looking at what other people have and start realising that whatever you are getting will be a pup that YOU build up and work with and learn from that. #-o


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> lol be serious joby, this is important . i need something to compare my next puppy to. i dont want to go in with too high or too low an expectation.
> so videos of what to look for and explanations would be appreciated.
> especially from people who breed or have tested heaps of litters.
> it would be great if i could go into the selection process with a list of boxes to tick as well as my instincts


Michael...What do you pland to do with your pup? realistically?

I assume your options are fairly limited on choice, both in what you do with the puppy/who you work with, and litter choice, due to your location... why set yourself up for being possbily dissapointed by comparing your pups to what you see other people doing with their pups on the internet?

With both of my last choices, I decided to get a pup from a specific litter. The decision was made. I did not even do much testing at all, since the decision was already made that I was getting a pup from those litters.

In both litters there were 2 females available, I wanted a female. I picked what looked to be the puppy with the better gripping style and toughness. , that was it, I knew I was going home with a pup, I did not complicate the matter in my head... I am happy with both so far and think I have fairly high standards for dogs I like.

Sure we shook some toys around, in either litter, the females I chose from did not show tons of prey drive to be perfectly honest, while I was there.

I am giving you good advice here, take the pup the breeder chooses, if yout trust them and communicate with them about what you want, or make a decision based on what you see, and like while you are there, and if you dont spend much time there as pups are growing, what you see on a quick visit or two might not really tell you that much about them anyhow, pusp often do things on their own schedule, not ours.

Take the pup home, do what you will with it, and dont be concerned about comparing it to other peoples dogs, what is the benefit of that to you? once you have made a choice to pull the trigger on a specific litter?

My first knpv type dog I did almost zero prey work with until the dog was 9-10 months old, and my current puppy is almost 4 months old and I have used a flirt pole exactly 2 times, and just have been letting her KILL he fluffy toys. 

The older dog looked at me like I was crazy when I threw a ball for her at 10 months old, ran up and sniffed it, and left it there. The ball is like cocaine now, maybe not crack cocaine, but cocaine nonetheless...as are all of the "prey" objects that focus has been put into with her. She also had pretty weak bite at 9 months old, I cant remember people taking bites from her as an adult ever saying that the bite was weak, or that the dog is lacking in drive.

I presume you are more interested in having a DOG with good prey/fight behaviors than comparing a puppies prey drive to other puppies.. so why set yourself up for doubting and disappointment?

Prey drive is variable, sometimes comes a little later, sometimes needs to be worked on, other times tapers off as pup gets older. To me nerves, and confidence trump extreme prey drive demonstration at 7 weeks old.

You might be surprised at how many people actually do not do much prey drive work with thier young pups.

If you want to see displays of it though, use google, type in "KNPV puppies" or "KNPV Puppy", choose to filter videos only, and there are plenty of them.

or even just videos of other Malinois type dogs, Dutch Shepherds, Pitbulls, Donovan Pinschers, or GSD.. Prey drive in puppies is just Prey drive in puppies, venue dog comes from or breed is irrelevant really.


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## Matt Vandart

Alice Bezemer said:


> Michael! Seriously! My god man.... Compare your next pup to? Really? And what if it doesn't come out the way you thought it would, then what? Bad litter? Bad breeder? Any pup, no matter how fiesty or docile, no matter the bloodline, is only as good as the hand that feeds and raises it. Stop looking for that high drive, full digging bite, excellent nosed beast of a pup and wait for a pup that SUITS you and work with that!
> 
> Stop looking at what other people have and start realizing that whatever you are getting will be a pup that YOU build up and work with and learn from that. #-o


^^ This ^^

and same as Joby said, what are your intentions for this pup?
Again I love your enthusiasm but I think you may be in for an eye opener when you get this pup. Personally I hope you succeed in your aim, I look forward to seeing it occur, it's gonna be fun!
I would say it's easier to **** a sky high drive headbanger pup up than a medium drive pup with limited handler experience IMO, but then I don't know what your experience is so I will shut my gob.

Also drive this drive that blah blah blah........I spent months suppressing my dobes drives, when they were pups cos they DROVE my missus mad. Make sure you 100% know what you are getting into, lol.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Joby Becker said:


> Michael...What do you pland to do with your pup? realistically?
> 
> I assume your options are fairly limited on choice, both in what you do with the puppy/who you work with, and litter choice, due to your location... why set yourself up for being possbily dissapointed by comparing your pups to what you see other people doing with their pups on the internet?
> 
> With both of my last choices, I decided to get a pup from a specific litter. The decision was made. I did not even do much testing at all, since the decision was already made that I was getting a pup from those litters.
> 
> In both litters there were 2 females available, I wanted a female. I picked what looked to be the puppy with the better gripping style and toughness. , that was it, I knew I was going home with a pup, I did not complicate the matter in my head... I am happy with both so far and think I have fairly high standards for dogs I like.
> 
> Sure we shook some toys around, in either litter, the females I chose from did not show tons of prey drive to be perfectly honest, while I was there.
> 
> I am giving you good advice here, take the pup the breeder chooses, if yout trust them and communicate with them about what you want, or make a decision based on what you see, and like while you are there, and if you dont spend much time there as pups are growing, what you see on a quick visit or two might not really tell you that much about them anyhow, pusp often do things on their own schedule, not ours.
> 
> Take the pup home, do what you will with it, and dont be concerned about comparing it to other peoples dogs, what is the benefit of that to you? once you have made a choice to pull the trigger on a specific litter?
> 
> My first knpv type dog I did almost zero prey work with until the dog was 9-10 months old, and my current puppy is almost 4 months old and I have used a flirt pole exactly 2 times, and just have been letting her KILL he fluffy toys.
> 
> The older dog looked at me like I was crazy when I threw a ball for her at 10 months old, ran up and sniffed it, and left it there. The ball is like cocaine now, maybe not crack cocaine, but cocaine nonetheless...as are all of the "prey" objects that focus has been put into with her. She also had pretty weak bite at 9 months old, I cant remember people taking bites from her as an adult ever saying that the bite was weak, or that the dog is lacking in drive.
> 
> I presume you are more interested in having a DOG with good prey/fight behaviors than comparing a puppies prey drive to other puppies.. so why set yourself up for doubting and disappointment?
> 
> Prey drive is variable, sometimes comes a little later, sometimes needs to be worked on, other times tapers off as pup gets older. To me nerves, and confidence trump extreme prey drive demonstration at 7 weeks old.
> 
> You might be surprised at how many people actually do not do much prey drive work with thier young pups.
> 
> If you want to see displays of it though, use google, type in "KNPV puppies" or "KNPV Puppy", choose to filter videos only, and there are plenty of them.
> 
> or even just videos of other Malinois type dogs, Dutch Shepherds, Pitbulls, Donovan Pinschers, or GSD.. Prey drive in puppies is just Prey drive in puppies, venue dog comes from or breed is irrelevant really.


Wise words, Joby. thumbs up!!! ;-)

Dick


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## Kevin Cyr

Michael Murphy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYfN9hxI2io
> 
> can anyone post a video of a standard 7 week old knpv puppy, in prey, just so i have an idea of the expectations i should have


 
Hey don't listen to anybody man, just go get TWO pups at the SAME time from different lines and raise them, then you can compare yourself. I'd suggest you start with Rico H line or Django, then maybe VL lines...seems like you like them.


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## Christopher Jones

My honest advice for you Michael is to bypass a puppy and get an older dog. It also has to be noted that alot of the real serious and extreme dogs showed very little, or even no drive as a puppy. You might want to enquire about a dog called Duco who is owned by a member of this forum. His first owner as a puppy complained about his lack of drive and claimed his advanced knowedge of tough dogs was all that was needed to label the pup a dud. He wanted his money back for him. He ended up moving the dog on once his balls dropped and he has had a few homes since.
If only it was as simple as looking at how crazy a pup is for a tug.


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## Michael Murphy

which Duco are you referring to chris?


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## Michael Murphy

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Wise words, Joby. thumbs up!!! ;-)
> 
> Dick


Dick/Selena, how do use go about picking puppies, how do you test for nerves and fight?


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## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> which Duco are you referring to chris?


An endor son.


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## mike suttle

Michael, I started typing you some words of advice on this post, but it just kept getting longer and longer and then I realized that you are gonna do what you want anyway. You have already been given a lot of good advice from other working dog peolple yet you seem to continue to ignore it. 
My best advice for you at this point would be to get a Kelpie. Plenty of them in your country and they are great dogs!


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## Gillian Schuler

It's a pity that threads like this start off with the poster wanting the best biting beast he can enivsage.

I think Chris Jones hit it on the nail by saying "buy an adult dog". 

A lot of handlers do not reveal how much experience they have themselves but most of them want the "best biting dog out". Health seems to be a secondary issue.

My last GSD was also not interested in tugging with me and even at 7 months watched the Swiss Nationals Protection without raising an eyebrow.

However, at 9 months he bit so hard into the young dog arm that the helper exchanged it quickly for an adult dog arm. Even if he hadn't done this, he would never have left us - I would have found something else in sport to do with him.

I find the emphasis far too strong on what a new handler expects from his pup.

*What can the pup expect from the handler?*


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## Michael Murphy

mike suttle said:


> Michael, I started typing you some words of advice on this post, but it just kept getting longer and longer and then I realized that you are gonna do what you want anyway. You have already been given a lot of good advice from other working dog peolple yet you seem to continue to ignore it.
> My best advice for you at this point would be to get a Kelpie. Plenty of them in your country and they are great dogs!


im not ignoring the advice Mike, im currently in the process of purchasing a puppy, from a breeding that is planned within the month. the puppy will be from knpv lines, nice pedigree etc. i trust the breeders opinion and he will be picking the puppy for me that he thinks is best knowing my needs. however i still might fly over their ( interstate) and have a look for myself as well. i think among other things it would also be a good learning experience.
my question was to learn about what i should be looking for in a puppy, how i should test and evaluate, standard expectations i should have, little warning signs i should watch out for.
as you breed and test multiple litters and run a business in which you have to be efficient (unlike others on this forum i dont think you can afford to take as much of a gamble, and maybe hope the puppy "wakes up" one day) i thought you might give me some insight into some of your puppy evaluation techniques, at 5 , 6 and 7 weeks. 
i remember reading that you test for nerve at 5 weeks. in the litters iv looked at this has been true in my experience as well, there is a bigger difference in the puppies confidence at 5 weeks then at 7 weeks in which they have started to become familiar with their surrounding and sounds.

this is the type of information im looking for. also as ill only be able to see the litter once maybe, which week would be the best?

again i trust the breeder greatly and will be letting him make the decision, but like i said i still wouldnt mind seeing the puppies evaluation and also learning in the process


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## Michael Murphy

Gillian Schuler said:


> It's a pity that threads like this start off with the poster wanting the best biting beast he can enivsage.
> 
> I think Chris Jones hit it on the nail by saying "buy an adult dog".
> 
> A lot of handlers do not reveal how much experience they have themselves but most of them want the "best biting dog out". Health seems to be a secondary issue.
> 
> My last GSD was also not interested in tugging with me and even at 7 months watched the Swiss Nationals Protection without raising an eyebrow.
> 
> However, at 9 months he bit so hard into the young dog arm that the helper exchanged it quickly for an adult dog arm. Even if he hadn't done this, he would never have left us - I would have found something else in sport to do with him.
> 
> I find the emphasis far too strong on what a new handler expects from his pup.
> 
> *What can the pup expect from the handler?*


the handlers is at a stage everyone in this forum was at. people are not born great trainers/ breeders. i am learning. ill be honest i want an extreme pup/dog, i feel like i can learn more from them, as well as do more with them. also their is a lesser chance that ill ruin the pup if its very strong, then if its low drive etc to begin with. i dont have the skills to get a mediocre dog to be a good dog. if anything i need a exceptional puppy, that will end up being a decent dog in my hands.
also i encourage you to look for a post of mine where i have at anytime claimed i was a good handler or expert or had greater knowledge then others. i would like to think that i have always been honest and open, and not try and cover up my weaknesses to avoid critisim


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> the handlers is at a stage everyone in this forum was at. people are not born great trainers/ breeders. i am learning. ill be honest i want an extreme pup/dog, i feel like i can learn more from them, as well as do more with them. also their is a lesser chance that ill ruin the pup if its very strong, then if its low drive etc to begin with. i dont have the skills to get a mediocre dog to be a good dog. if anything i need a exceptional puppy, that will end up being a decent dog in my hands.
> also i encourage you to look for a post of mine where i have at anytime claimed i was a good handler or expert or had greater knowledge then others. i would like to think that i have always been honest and open, and not try and cover up my weaknesses to avoid critisim


I will offer you this advice. Get a puppy that is lower in drive, slower to develop, but it very bold, social, and confident. This is perhaps the best advice I could give you, but you aren't going to take this advice anyway.


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## Michael Murphy

the only reason i dont want to take that advice is because my current GSD is bold , confident and social, his only problem was that he is low drive, and probably wont ever mature.
im not scared of high drive, im very high drive myself
i think low drive is relative, i have a feeling low drive in your books is a lot higher then what others might understand.

like for example joby's video, that puppy had twice the drive my gsd had at that age. he wouldnt have barked at all, and would have eventually just sat there and watched 

but yes your right, i wont completely take your advice. i would prefer bold, confident and high drive.

but that doesnt mean i cant get advice for testing those things, does it?
Mike what would you look for in a puppy that you planned to place with the military?


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> Mike what would you look for in a puppy that you planned to place with the military?


I would start by looking at a puppy that was about 36 months old


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## Gillian Schuler

Michael, to be honest, I haven't read all your posts but it comes back to the same question "why do you want a pup of "terrific quality"? which you admit you cannot match with experience?

Why not aim for a serious breeder who has a history of healthy pups and can give you advice. I assume from your posts that you are young? A healthy, active pup is a start and, if you exert yourself in the right direction, you can do much with it.

I admit, you cannot probably "ruin" a very strong nerved dog as easily as you could a weaker nerved dog but even this would come back to the same conclusion maybe "the dog has it in it - but the handler not". This isn't supposed to be insulting but, there are far more ithings involved in a "high drive beast" than you maybe can imagine. 

However, if you just want to kennel it up and parade it out at the local dog club and try to train it - so be it.

For me, a dog is not just training object - it is a dog that can accompany me through my everyday life and, if suitable, one which I can trial with.

I admit I am probably unusual? But, I wish you well and I hope you will reconsider.


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## mike suttle

Michael, here is a video I took of a litter of pups the day they turned 6 weeks old. I would consider this to be an average litter, not extreme, not bad, just normal. All of these pups turned out just fine, and none of them were extreme in any area. But they were bold, , very social, confident pups. The reason I suggest getting a low drive pup is because for 100% sure if you get one that is really extreme in drive, you will rush him too fast in training, and you will have created many problems in the dog by the time he is an adult. If you get one who matures more slowly it will force you to wait for him to be mature before you can do too much with him. Like I said I know you will not listen to me, and that is fine, but if you dont like what I have to say then please stop asking me for my honest opinions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA13ZXpqrNI&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=12


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## Michael Murphy

mike suttle said:


> I would start by looking at a puppy that was about 36 months old


=D> ill admit , your good , frustrating but good


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## Kevin Cyr

mike suttle said:


> Michael, here is a video I took of a litter of pups the day they turned 6 weeks old. I would consider this to be an average litter, not extreme, not bad, just normal. All of these pups turned out just fine, and none of them were extreme in any area. But they were bold, , very social, confident pups. The reason I suggest getting a low drive pup is because for 100% sure if you get one that is really extreme in drive, you will rush him too fast in training, and you will have created many problems in the dog by the time he is an adult. If you get one who matures more slowly it will force you to wait for him to be mature before you can do too much with him. Like I said I know you will not listen to me, and that is fine, but if you dont like what I have to say then please stop asking me for my honest opinions.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA13ZXpqrNI&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=12


 
I didn't look at the video, but that is very sound advice, I will say that. Just because the pup/dog can do it at a certain age doesn't mean it should be done.... "But it looks cool" and many flock to that idea


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## Michael Murphy

yea i understand not rushing a dog, im actually pretty patient as i have a fear or ruining the dog.
those puppies in the video were actually very good considering they were 6 weeks.
im curious though would they have done as well with the obstacles if they had been taken out individually, for the first time?
i have noticed that puppies that hesitate too much or even try go back to the litter, end up not having the best nerves when their older


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> yea i understand not rushing a dog, im actually pretty patient as i have a fear or ruining the dog.
> those puppies in the video were actually very good considering they were 6 weeks.
> im curious though would they have done as well with the obstacles if they had been taken out individually, for the first time?
> i have noticed that puppies that hesitate too much or even try go back to the litter, end up not having the best nerves when their older


Our puppies get worked and prepared for this stuff long before 6weeks old. This was not their first time, this was just the day they turned 6 weeks old. By this age they had all been on those types of surfaces and had already been exposed to a lot.
And yes, by 6 weeks of age they all were doing that kind of stuff alone, or with their littermates. But what does that tell you? Anything? Nothing? .........Does it mean they will be amazing monsters at 3 years old if they do this stuff at 6 weeks? If they just sat there and watched this happen and did nothing at all does that mean they will suck at 3 years old?............it means nothing, it means they are happy, playful, social, confident puppies with good bloodlines that are just waiting to get ruined by someone who doesnt understand how to raise a dog.


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## Matt Vandart

Lol, prey drive at 7 weeks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b_Xj8UmswI

This:


> I will offer you this advice. Get a puppy that is lower in drive, slower to develop, but it very bold, social, and confident. This is perhaps the best advice I could give you, but you aren't going to take this advice anyway.


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## Michael Murphy

mike suttle said:


> Our puppies get worked and prepared for this stuff long before 6weeks old. This was not their first time, this was just the day they turned 6 weeks old. By this age they had all been on those types of surfaces and had already been exposed to a lot.
> And yes, by 6 weeks of age they all were doing that kind of stuff alone, or with their littermates. But what does that tell you? Anything? Nothing? .........Does it mean they will be amazing monsters at 3 years old if they do this stuff at 6 weeks? If they just sat there and watched this happen and did nothing at all does that mean they will suck at 3 years old?............it means nothing, it means they are happy, playful, social, confident puppies with good bloodlines that are just waiting to get ruined by someone who doesnt understand how to raise a dog.


you never failed a pup? ever? you give them all a chance up to 3 years?
common Mike you of all people


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## Michael Murphy

the forum is letting me down in my time of need :sad:


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## Michael Murphy

so everyone on this forum, when their purchasing a puppy, goes to the litter to find the lowest drive puppy and purchases that one ??????????

im usually a pretty cool customer BUT :evil: , this is starting to get ridiculous

the question was simple, what to look for in a working prospect and in this context work means knpv. yes i want to attempt and train a dog in the knpv routine, and yes failure is a part of learning


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## Joby Becker

Michael most people that know what they are doing for the most part, pick a puppy based on its parents and family, and after seeing other similar pups at older ages or maturity. Or they just take a chance on new combinations, and see how it goes.

the red flags you should be concerned about is sound sensitivity, environmental nerves, lack of boldness.

you test a puppy for fight, by picking a puppy from parents that produce that.

You answer some questions now?
1. What do you plan for the dog longterm? the end goals? the function?

2. How old is your GSD? and why do you say he might never mature?

3. How have you tried to work with your GSD, to build or open up some drive?

4. What kind of knowledgeable support group will you have to help you train and handle your dog, that can help you IN PERSON?

5. How many times have you had someone else, that is skilled, try to evaluate or work your GSD?

6. DO you realize that most of the people you keep asking questions about what they do, all of the main ones I can think of anyhow, are very experienced in handling very handler tough dogs, and often get dogs from other people at young adult or adult stages that have given their owners/handlers all kinds of problems becuase they were not able to handle and control the dogs properly, with many of those first handlers taking trips to the hospital? The people you asking, like to handle those very tough dogs for the most part and are very capable of doing so, dogs that often give even experienced trainers a very hard time?

7. What is your living arrangement? house? property? GF? WIFE? rommmates? kids? dogs?...how many people will interact with the dog, or end up having to handle the dog? Have company often?

8. Will dog be kept inside house? Kennel outside? crate? loose? free roaming?

9. It is very possible to screw up a very strong extreme dog as easily as any other dog, the difference usually is that someone usually ends up getting attacked or bitten, instead of the dog not being able to do something becuase of his weakness.

10. DO you realize most of the dogs you are mentioning, and looking at videos of, quite liekly might end up putting a new inexperienced dog handler, family member, friend or innocent stranger, into the hospital by the time they were 12 months of age? and that when you think about "extreme" dogs, you are not just talking about prey drive here, and when you are talking about super high fight, tough dominant dogs, that those are types of dogs that you really dont want as a new handler, even though you think you do, there is a huge difference between the dogs you keep bringing up, and a dog that is capable of doing the work. The dogs yo uare talking about are high caliber working dogs, doing sport or police or whatever type work, or breeding dogs, most of which are kennel kept, and not allowed to interact with children, most of which are not on peoples couches, in their homes?

11. There are several people on here that are sincerely hoping they are not wasting their time with you on here, and a fair amount of people believe that you are a troll, not who you say you are, and just yanking peoples chains here, I dont believe that personally, but some do.. Can you please shoot a short video of you with your GSD, showing what you are doing to try to work him.


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> you never failed a pup? ever? you give them all a chance up to 3 years?
> common Mike you of all people


this is the type of post that will make people NOT want to answer all of your questions...


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> the only reason i dont want to take that advice is because my current GSD is bold , confident and social, his only problem was that he is low drive, and probably wont ever mature.
> im not scared of high drive, *im very high drive myself*
> i think low drive is relative, i have a feeling low drive in your books is a lot higher then what others might understand.
> 
> like for example joby's video, that puppy had twice the drive my gsd had at that age. he wouldnt have barked at all, and would have eventually just sat there and watched
> 
> but yes your right, i wont completely take your advice. i would prefer bold, confident and high drive.
> 
> but that doesnt mean i cant get advice for testing those things, does it?
> Mike what would you look for in a puppy that you planned to place with the military?


and THAT is exactly the reason why you should NOT take a high drive dog to begin with.... You want a low drive pup, not some monster that your own high drive will drive nuts and will drive you nuts in return!

Your actions and behaviour will feed the pup and vice versa... for gods sake, michael...do not ask people questions if you do not want the answers. Mike Suttle told you what he thought you should get, I fully agree with his view... 

Your view that you will have less chance of ruining a high drive pup... Sorry, rude word coming your way. Bullshit! Anything can be ruined and in unexperianced person it can be ruined twice as damn quick. Just because this beast that you prefer might not be quick to lay down for you does not mean it will not outgrow you and take a nice chunk out of your fairly stubborn ass. You really have a lot to learn here Michael....using your noggin is apparantly one of those things. :roll:


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> so everyone on this forum, when their purchasing a puppy, goes to the litter to find the lowest drive puppy and purchases that one ??????????
> 
> im usually a pretty cool customer BUT :evil: , this is starting to get ridiculous
> 
> the question was simple, what to look for in a working prospect and in this context work means knpv. yes i want to attempt and train a dog in the knpv routine, and yes failure is a part of learning


no Michael, no one said that. 

But almost all people that do not have much of a clue how to handle and train high drive malinois type dogs with strong character, that go out and pick a strong high drive pup out of a litter that is known to produce the type of dogs ou seem to be interested in, end up wishing that they had not chosen those pups, and often get rid of them before they are mature, or put them to sleep.

the difference in the type of dogs you seem to be fixated on is that those dogs were bred to be very capable working police or top sport type dogs, with high aggression levels, that like to fight people, they are not bred to be dogs for first time handlers that are not very knowledgable on how to handle them, many of them even get returned by or moved, or put down by people that DO have some experience.


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> you never failed a pup? ever? you give them all a chance up to 3 years?
> common Mike you of all people


I have washed out several young puppies in the last 52 litters, never once due to lack of drive...........good luck on your search for a puppy Michael.


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## Gillian Schuler

mike suttle said:


> I have washed out several young puppies in the last 52 litters, never once due to lack of drive...........good luck on your search for a puppy Michael.


Mike, an old Cheshire GB sentiment:

there's nowt so queer as folk!


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## Michael Murphy

the gsd i have now is 19 months old, he wont bite on anything hard or too thick. i believe this is from a mistake i made when the puppy was 5 months old approximately. he was teething and i played tug with him and in the process a tooth got ripped out. alot of pain, dog yelped and ever since he wont bite and if he does its very soft, or he bites hard on a soft object etc.
i left him alone to grow after the incident hoping he would forget and then tried to build him up again but havent succeeded. still trying though. 
he was evaluated by 2 people at 4 months and 10 months. both said he was never going to bite a sleeve. 
Chi from this forum has a video of him, i wanted to see his nerves under pressure, so i told Chi to try bring out some defence in him

i just dont want to make mistakes with my next dog because once i buy a dog , i wont sell it , i wont shoot it, the dog is my responsibility for the rest of its life.


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## Michael Murphy

im 24 years old , its just me , so i dont have to worry about family members getting attacked etc


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## Michael Murphy

i asked Chi to post the video.

ps he also said he doesnt bite/low drive. too low


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## Matt Vandart

Michael Murphy said:


> the gsd i have now is 19 months old, he wont bite on anything hard or too thick. *i believe this is from a mistake i made when the puppy was 5 months old approximately. he was teething and i played tug with him and in the process a tooth got ripped out. alot of pain, dog yelped and ever since he wont bite and if he does its very soft, or he bites hard on a soft object etc.*
> i left him alone to grow after the incident hoping he would forget and then tried to build him up again but havent succeeded. still trying though.
> he was evaluated by 2 people at 4 months and 10 months. both said he was never going to bite a sleeve.
> Chi from this forum has a video of him, i wanted to see his nerves under pressure, so i told Chi to try bring out some defence in him
> 
> i just dont want to make mistakes with my next dog because once i buy a dog , i wont sell it , i wont shoot it, the dog is my responsibility for the rest of its life.


This is why you don't want to be getting a beast dude.


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## Michael Murphy

i dont get why everyones talking like these beasts are so common.


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## Michael Murphy

Matt Vandart said:


> This is why you don't want to be getting a beast dude.


what does that have to do with getting a beast?


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## Matt Vandart

They are more common than you would imagine, go to a few dog shelters you can probably pick one up there, my old man did.

Um you managed to **** up a low drive pup from inexperience maybe?


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> the gsd i have now is 19 months old, he wont bite on anything hard or too thick. i believe this is from a mistake i made when the puppy was 5 months old approximately. he was teething and i played tug with him and in the process a tooth got ripped out. alot of pain, dog yelped and ever since he wont bite and if he does its very soft, or he bites hard on a soft object etc.
> i left him alone to grow after the incident hoping he would forget and then tried to build him up again but havent succeeded. still trying though.
> he was evaluated by 2 people at 4 months and 10 months. both said he was never going to bite a sleeve.
> Chi from this forum has a video of him, i wanted to see his nerves under pressure, so i told Chi to try bring out some defence in him
> 
> i just dont want to make mistakes with my next dog because once i buy a dog , i wont sell it , i wont shoot it, the dog is my responsibility for the rest of its life.



What tooth got ripped out? It yelped... so? What was your reaction to the yelp? 

You left the dog alone hoping it would forget? Okayyyyyyy.... thats certainly a new and interesting approach, not very smart tho...

I had dogs lose teeth when teething as a pup. They lost them during play, tugging, one even got his teeth stuck in the bench he was in and broke his puppy k9's that way.... screamed like a banshee he did. 

Did I react? I checked the teeth, went to vet, had remains removed, was biting in the tug the next day.... Same with the pups that lost teeth during playing tug or random play... Yelp? Fine, now back to play and bite, ignore the yelp! No feeling bad, no POOR PUPPY, no resting for 5 frikking months in hopes of him forgetting about it...

What you did was give him 5 months to think about how much it hurt and protected the poor thing from having to bite again and get over his fear... Yep you realllllly need a dog with high drive and balls. I'd book an ER bed in advance if I were you. :lol:


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## rick smith

i've pretty much stayed on the sidelines but....but this much i know for damn sure

if you had come on here explaining your current problems and asked for training advice rather than get fixated on pedigrees and puppy selection for your future KNPV dog, both you and your dog would probably be better off today


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## Michael Murphy

yea and thats why i want high drive, so its harder to stuff up!

and i only said i ripped the tooth out cause i dont like blaming others, but stuff it, it was not me, it was someone at the IPO club, i new better but i chose to keep my mouth shut and trust the more experienced ppl #-o

these beasts i have a feeling would be a real dissapointment if i ever saw one/
i have seen czech gsd beasts, fci malinois beasts, american bulldog beasts, american pitbull beasts, boerbull beasts, doberman, rottweiler, pitbull/mastiff mixes, "dangerous" boar dogs. ALL were dissapointing. i have seen more then most, but im not on this forum to give my opinion but learn from others

and they say im a troll???? the question was is this normal for a 9 week old knpv line pup? every response since has been trolling

i hope these knpv dogs are all they are made out to be, and not like all the other beats iv seen


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> yea and thats why i want high drive, so its harder to stuff up!
> 
> and i only said i ripped the tooth out cause i dont like blaming others, but stuff it, it was not me, it was someone at the IPO club, i new better but i chose to keep my mouth shut and trust the more experienced ppl #-o
> 
> these beasts i have a feeling would be a real dissapointment if i ever saw one/
> i have seen czech gsd beasts, fci malinois beasts, american bulldog beasts, american pitbull beasts, boerbull beasts, doberman, rottweiler, pitbull/mastiff mixes, "dangerous" boar dogs. ALL were dissapointing. i have seen more then most, but im not on this forum to give my opinion but learn from others
> 
> and they say im a troll???? the question was is this normal for a 9 week old knpv line pup? every response since has been trolling
> 
> i hope these knpv dogs are all they are made out to be, and not like all the other beats iv seen


:?::?::?: did the dog get a tooth ripped out or not? I am not following what you are saying at this point... it reads as if you lied? 

Michael, let me give you a hint. If you do not want the answers then stop asking the questions. I have trained knpv dogs and sold them for longer than you have been breathing! As have most of the people that have been advising you on this forum.

Your actions, talk and behaviour are stubborn and in some ways disrespectful at best, damnright RUDE at worst. 

Many a person on this forum has taken time to answer your questions over and over again and now you dare to call their responses to your questions trolling? Maybe you should reconsider asking the questions before asking them? 

You want advice? Then take the damn advice given to you by people who know a damn sight better than you what they are talking about! 

Like I said, don't want honest answers then do not ask questions!


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## Maureen A Osborn

Micheal, why are you wanting a KNPV pup? What are you looking do do with it? Sport, PP, Poilce work?? Have you ever owned a DS or mal from other lines, or just the gsd you have? You may be in for a big surprise. IMHO, I would go from something like Ashely WInter's kennel that is going to be a more social, easier going dog that isnt as civil as the KNPV dogs can be. The first thing I look at when testing pups is nerves, stability, ablity to adapt to strange, new environments, people,sounds, etc. The worst thing to have is a high drive nerve bag!!!


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## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> What tooth got ripped out? It yelped... so? What was your reaction to the yelp?
> 
> You left the dog alone hoping it would forget? Okayyyyyyy.... thats certainly a new and interesting approach, not very smart tho...
> 
> I had dogs lose teeth when teething as a pup. They lost them during play, tugging, one even got his teeth stuck in the bench he was in and broke his puppy k9's that way.... screamed like a banshee he did.
> 
> Did I react? I checked the teeth, went to vet, had remains removed, was biting in the tug the next day.... Same with the pups that lost teeth during playing tug or random play... Yelp? Fine, now back to play and bite, ignore the yelp! No feeling bad, no POOR PUPPY, no resting for 5 frikking months in hopes of him forgetting about it...
> 
> What you did was give him 5 months to think about how much it hurt and protected the poor thing from having to bite again and get over his fear... Yep you realllllly need a dog with high drive and balls. I'd book an ER bed in advance if I were you. :lol:[/QUO
> 
> they tried to play with him after, he wouldnt even put the toy in his mouth. they got 4 different toys , none of them worked. then they said give him a few weeks break so i did, still didnt bite.
> he pulls very hard , if you saw the way he goes for the ball, tug etc you would say he was very high drive, but when he puts it in his mouth he doesnt bite down hard, unless its something very soft, his 19 months now a lot better then he was back then, but i still cant get him biting a pillow, he just wont, not matter how much i frustrate him.


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## Michael Murphy

the lie was that i said i played tug and the tooth got ripped out, his tooth did get ripped out but not by me, it was a club member playing tug with him that did it, not their fault , it just happens. i just think his a bit sensitive


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## Matt Vandart

Dude maybe you should take him to the vet, sounds like he may have a bit of tooth still in there or something else hurting.

On the point Maureen said about civil biting dogs, my dobe Tilly is one, she has already made a 'mistake', luckily just the father in law, lol, and now I have to be super careful with her, both socially and what I train her, it's a pain in the hoop for me and I have been around biting dogs all my life. This is people's main concern I think. I for one care whether you get seriously bitten or your dog bites someone inappropriately both because I don't want anyone getting hurt and maybe more importantly because ATM dogs that bite the general public is really high profile in a number of countries at the moment and the authorities are making some knee jerk reactions, no one here wants to see Mals and Dutchies in the BSL crosshairs.

Have you tried something else with your GSD like tracking or scent work? You can learn hell of a lot about training dogs in this venue, I for one am more impressed by a top quality tracker than a dog that spins in the air on a sleeve. Tracking really is amazing stuff.


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## Ben Thompson

I happen to think that the best dogs for the KNPV are medium drive beagles. There is nothing like watching a dog about the size of a soccer ball come down the field sniffing and barking going right past the helper and chasing a rabbit.


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## Maureen A Osborn

I can also tell you Michael that a civil KNPV dog is a LARGE liability....my pup is starting to even out a little at 6 1/2 months, but she was way sharp and way civil....right now we are only working her in prey to balance her out....it takes a LOT of work to balance out a dog that has drives like this and you really have to have eyes in the back of your head and be fully aware of everything ande everyone around you when the dog is out. Like I said, you might want to rethink this and get a "milder" dog not out of KNPV lines for your first DS or mal.


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## Kevin Cyr

Michael Murphy said:


> the lie was that i said i played tug and the tooth got ripped out, his tooth did get ripped out but not by me, it was a club member playing tug with him that did it, not their fault , it just happens. i just think his a bit sensitive


 
the handler/owner is ultimately responsible no matter how you look at it...


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## Christopher Jones

Your shep may well be a average dog, if you no happy with him sell him ASAP so he can go to someone who will give him the time and care he should have.
These dogs you crave are not something to get without the right knowedge and back up. Your new to working dogs and would be outgunned by such a dog, and I doubt anyone you train with would have the experience to help you. 
The extra drive these dogs have isnt useable in 99% of peoples application. You might have a car that can go 250kms an hour but your never gonna need that speed, even if your outrunning the fuzz. Not only that but make a mistake at those speeds and your most likely going to wrap yourself around a tree. Get an older doog that has the drive you like and train him. And trust me, if you see one of these killers at 3 years your most likely not going to take the lead and walk him off to your car.


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## Michael Murphy

^ i would take the leash, i really would
i hate sounding cocky, but i have tackled a rottweiler who jumped the fence and ran at my cattle dog when he was a puppy, nice scare on my right hand. i have tackled a pitbull that got of the leash and started chasing two girls ( got a very pretty scar on my left hand for that one)
im use to aggressive dogs, my current gsd (who i look after and spend a lot of time with, the reason i wont sell him is because i know a lot of people wont be able to handle him, his done very basic obedience but wont listen to anyone else if they give him a command, i dont see any working handler purchasing he has low drive ) 
his also very dog aggressive and does like to redirect his aggression and come up the leash when his frustated. his also 48kg and thats very lean, so im use to strong dogs.
i know i dont have experience training dogs for sports or knpv dogs, but i have owned a lot of large dogs , and medium sized very high drive dogs ( my cattle dog, most people probably couldnt handle him, he actually bites for real )
i would like to think im pretty well educated and responsible so the dog wont be a liability to anyone else. i also think im physically capable to handle a dog like that, so im not too worried about myself.

non dog related
(i actually do kickboxing, freestyle wrestling and brazilian jiu jitsu (MMA), so most dogs are like :-o when they see me coming .
that last paragraph was for you Joby, i know you like the UFC, you might have seen one of my coaches fight cro crop in sydney , it was a bad loss :sad: my other coach 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKWpFwXNCg8 he also lost :sad: )

anyways back on the dogs


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## Michael Murphy

i asked for my dogs video to be posted but the person said they dont like posting their personal videos up , sorry


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## Michael Murphy

i would really like to tell you where im getting my puppy from Chris, but i have a feeling that you would call the person up and tell them not to sell me the pup. you seem to be against me getting a knpv line dog. 
And that would just send me to the dark side :twisted:


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## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ i would take the leash, i really would
> i hate sounding cocky, but i have tackled a rottweiler who jumped the fence and ran at my cattle dog when he was a puppy, nice scare on my right hand. i have tackled a pitbull that got of the leash and started chasing two girls ( got a very pretty scar on my left hand for that one)
> im use to aggressive dogs, my current gsd (who i look after and spend a lot of time with, the reason i wont sell him is because i know a lot of people wont be able to handle him, his done very basic obedience but wont listen to anyone else if they give him a command, i dont see any working handler purchasing he has low drive )
> his also very dog aggressive and does like to redirect his aggression and come up the leash when his frustated. his also 48kg and thats very lean, so im use to strong dogs.
> i know i dont have experience training dogs for sports or knpv dogs, but i have owned a lot of large dogs , and medium sized very high drive dogs ( my cattle dog, most people probably couldnt handle him, he actually bites for real )
> i would like to think im pretty well educated and responsible so the dog wont be a liability to anyone else. i also think im physically capable to handle a dog like that, so im not too worried about myself.
> 
> non dog related
> (i actually do kickboxing, freestyle wrestling and brazilian jiu jitsu (MMA), so most dogs are like :-o when they see me coming .
> that last paragraph was for you Joby, i know you like the UFC, you might have seen one of my coaches fight cro crop in sydney , it was a bad loss :sad: my other coach
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKWpFwXNCg8 he also lost :sad: )
> 
> anyways back on the dogs


With all that experience, knowledge and ability I dont understand why you are asking such basic questions.


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## Michael Murphy

none of the above has anything to do with, knowing what expectations to have from a knpv line puppy. see if the forum had stayed on topic instead of attacking me, i could have asked questions like ; when testing for noise sensitivity how loud should the noise be, like clapping or pulling the trigger on a shotgun. also some people say to test how hard the pup bites you should see if you can lift it of both feet for a few seconds to see if it holds on, other people say you should never do this, then there s the question on biting metal objects like pipes, i herd its crucial for a puppy to be able to do this and others say its not. see unlike other people on this forum i havent seen thousands of litters. i have no standards to base my expecations on. Mike Suttle said these are average lowish drive puppies (arco puppies he posted earlier) comparing them to the litter of my gsd, even at 8 weeks those gsd puppies were not even close to that


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## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> i would really like to tell you where im getting my puppy from Chris, but i have a feeling that you would call the person up and tell them not to sell me the pup. you seem to be against me getting a knpv line dog.
> And that would just send me to the dark side :twisted:


As you would have noticed I havent enquired about your pup. That should give you some indication of the care factor. 
I dont going around ringing people telling them to not sell their pups. Its a free world and what people do with their pups is none of my buisness. However when I sell my pups I try to do the best I can for them. And I dont believe I have ever said to you that I wouldnt sell you a dog. The reality is I dont breed very often and dont have alot to sell.


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## Michael Murphy

i misundersood then, i appreciate that chris, there is not alot of dog breeders in australia you can trust, and your one of the only ones that does the right think, so it was a bit dissapointing feeling like you were against me. 
im actually not picking the pup myself, your friend Ben is, his going to try and breed anja to tyson. he said he would pick the puppy as if he was picking for himself and even said he would send me videos if i wanted, i said no need, his one of the only other people i trust in this country. there are a few other breeders with knpv pups as you know, that offered to sell me pups / dogs, but i dont trust them like him. i asked him for a confident pup with hard nerves and high drives, i know thats what he will try and pick for me, even if the dog doesnt turn out good, i will know it was'nt due to a lack of honesty. there is nothing more annoying then dishonest breeder


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## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> i misundersood then, i appreciate that chris, there is not alot of dog breeders in australia you can trust, and your one of the only ones that does the right think, so it was a bit dissapointing feeling like you were against me.
> im actually not picking the pup myself, your friend Ben is, his going to try and breed anja to tyson. he said he would pick the puppy as if he was picking for himself and even said he would send me videos if i wanted, i said no need, his one of the only other people i trust in this country. there are a few other breeders with knpv pups as you know, that offered to sell me pups / dogs, but i dont trust them like him. i asked him for a confident pup with hard nerves and high drives, i know thats what he will try and pick for me, even if the dog doesnt turn out good, i will know it was'nt due to a lack of honesty. there is nothing more annoying then dishonest breeder


I would take a pup from Tyson to Anja. Good luck with it. But dont expect the puppy to be a monster at 8 weeks of age. Train it and put the work in. I might be the best MMA fighter in the world, but unless I train, condition myself and learn the right way to fight Im not going to do well. Genetics gives you the possibility of what the dog can be, what you do with it will determine if it reaches its potential.


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## Michael Murphy

thanks man


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> Mike Suttle said these are average lowish drive puppies (arco puppies he posted earlier) comparing them to the litter of my gsd, even at 8 weeks those gsd puppies were not even close to that


Michael, I did not say these were low drive puppies. I said they are average puppies, not extreme, not bad, just normal. 
This is a big problem in the working dog world. So many people want to use these buzz words to describe their own dogs, they call their dogs extreme, over the top, bombproof monsters, and they use a host of other buzz words to catch the attention of the person looking for a dog to buy. It makes it confusing for someone like yourself who admits not having much expierence in working dogs to follow these buzz words. You have already said that you have handled Rotts, Pits, etc who were "Beasts" (I think was the word you used). Now if you have no expierence with these types of dogs yourself that means you are relying on the owners definitions of what the dog is. So if he says my Rotie is a beast, and you are able to handle it then now you think you can handle a beast. That is because you have not really seen a beast in your life, but rather you believed the owner who told you his dog was a beast, when the truth is that guy had never seen a beast before either, and so on, and so on........
I see a lot dogs every year, and when I use a word like normal, that means the dog exibits all of the traits required and necessary to be used as a working dog; high drives, strong character, stable temperament, good nose, suitable courage, etc, etc. This is normal for a working police dog. The video I showed you is a NORMAL litter of working pups, not extreme, nothing amazing, or over the top, just NORMAL. but NORMAL doesn't mean low drive either, and that is not what I said. This was a video of a NORMAL litter the day they turned 6 weeks old. And yet, even though they were NORMAL, they are all suitable for working jobs beause they have suitable nerves, suitable drives, and suitable temperaments. So why do you think this somehow means low drive???? They have enough, isn't that enough for you?


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## Michael Murphy

again there has been a misunderstanding mike, another person on a post used the word beast and said they were common. so i started to say that i have handled a few of these so called "beasts" and was not that impressed. I completely agree with you and your spot on, normal for you is different to others, other people would call those puppies high drive. from my experiences you say high drive and see or get medium drive, you say normal drive you get low drive. a lot of breeders would get a hold of one of your normal arco puppies and then say it was an extreme animal.
but that is exactly reason for the post "is this normal for a knpv puppy at 9 weeks, and if not what is?" 
i dont have a "standard" to measure by . i dont know any other way to explain myself, its like budgets or industry standards, you evaluate your financial performance at the end of the year in relation to the budgets you have set or by comparing your business to other companies in the same industry.
i cant compare a knpv puppy to GSD litters i have seen or rotties etc, i have to compare them to other knpv puppies


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## Frank La Fauci

Michael, when you find a person in Australia that does KNPV!!! Training let me know.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Michael:

I think I understand that you are looking for a comparative in terms of what type of puppy is best for you to invest in given what you want to do with it. There seems to be a concern that you don't have the experience for what you think you want and you also can't know the entire scope of traits of the type of dog you think you want because you've never experienced. them. You seem to have a certain reverence for the title [KNPV certified], yet you can't know what its like to live with, manage and develop that type of dog. You want to do KNPV training but who do you have access to that has trained that type of dog to mentor you alone? You can't think that the random dogs you have tackled even hold a candle to the dogs that are oftentimes described here. 

I'm always interested in puppy selection/testing and I will tell you that first and foremost, I'd look at the puppy as an individual, not as part of the pack frenzy type dynamic. Second if the breeder is trustworthy and has the experience in the discipline that you want to pursue, they can tell you which traits displayed at a certain age that can serve as predictors given the proper development for their family/type of dogs. They can also tell you with a high degree of certainty what can screw it up. I'm usually interested in breeders that have worked with a certain line of dogs, trained them and worked them because they have a basis for what type of dog works and what doesn't. It can be KNPV this or that but if you don't have the knowledge or the resources to develop, you're not going to achieve that end result. 

I'm interested in a family of dogs and am lucky to have met someone who is so great about sharing the development of his dog in terms of how he trains, is to live with etc. and more have popped up on the forum. I highly suggest this route. There are a lot of buzz words and for me, "drive" is one of them and how do you define it. I don't consider hyperreactive true drive necessarily. You have to know the difference. I think more in terms of love to bite and carry objects, commitment to the task, etc. 

I have a hard time recommending to anyone that they get something less than "ideal" but have also seen "ideal" screwed up by the inexperienced. There are tons of people like you that think they are as bad ass as any bad ass dog but its not might makes right that is the best approach and you might end up missing a few tendons, ligaments, etc. From what you've described of yourself, I'd say suit up and go learn the art of working a biting dog. Next, find a KNPV mentor and spend as much time as possible with them as they select and develop a puppy from start to finish. Talk to Joby about the Bessie dog he is following. I'm not sure how young she is with the first videos but if they start from puppyhood, that's a good documentary of development of a KNPV dog from selection/puppyhood through young adult and still not done yet. Try to find some of KNPV seminars that I've seen mentioned here. To me it makes no sense to buy that caliber of dog unless you have the resources readily available to develop it and that includes the right trainer and decoy. Wrong training and all you have is KNPV screwed up.

You indicated that you have a chosen a breeder. All the questions you've asked here, you should ask the breeder. How do THEY select their puppies for the work. What traits do they look for at what ages. What developemental stages do they see in their dogs. Best way to approach training at different ages/stages. To me, this is why you pay the big bucks--for this type of experience and information. Get video of your breeders typical 9 week old. Even better, baby videos vs. adult working videos. 

T


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## Frank La Fauci

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Michael:
> 
> I think I understand that you are looking for a comparative in terms of what type of puppy is best for you to invest in given what you want to do with it. There seems to be a concern that you don't have the experience for what you think you want and you also can't know the entire scope of traits of the type of dog you think you want because you've never experienced. them. You seem to have a certain reverence for the title [KNPV certified], yet you can't know what its like to live with, manage and develop that type of dog. You want to do KNPV training but who do you have access to that has trained that type of dog to mentor you alone? You can't think that the random dogs you have tackled even hold a candle to the dogs that are oftentimes described here.
> 
> I'm always interested in puppy selection/testing and I will tell you that first and foremost, I'd look at the puppy as an individual, not as part of the pack frenzy type dynamic. Second if the breeder is trustworthy and has the experience in the discipline that you want to pursue, they can tell you which traits displayed at a certain age that can serve as predictors given the proper development for their family/type of dogs. They can also tell you with a high degree of certainty what can screw it up. I'm usually interested in breeders that have worked with a certain line of dogs, trained them and worked them because they have a basis for what type of dog works and what doesn't. It can be KNPV this or that but if you don't have the knowledge or the resources to develop, you're not going to achieve that end result.
> 
> I'm interested in a family of dogs and am lucky to have met someone who is so great about sharing the development of his dog in terms of how he trains, is to live with etc. and more have popped up on the forum. I highly suggest this route. There are a lot of buzz words and for me, "drive" is one of them and how do you define it. I don't consider hyperreactive true drive necessarily. You have to know the difference. I think more in terms of love to bite and carry objects, commitment to the task, etc.
> 
> I have a hard time recommending to anyone that they get something less than "ideal" but have also seen "ideal" screwed up by the inexperienced. There are tons of people like you that think they are as bad ass as any bad ass dog but its not might makes right that is the best approach and you might end up missing a few tendons, ligaments, etc. From what you've described of yourself, I'd say suit up and go learn the art of working a biting dog. Next, find a KNPV mentor and spend as much time as possible with them as they select and develop a puppy from start to finish. Talk to Joby about the Bessie dog he is following. I'm not sure how young she is with the first videos but if they start from puppyhood, that's a good documentary of development of a KNPV dog from selection/puppyhood through young adult and still not done yet. Try to find some of KNPV seminars that I've seen mentioned here. To me it makes no sense to buy that caliber of dog unless you have the resources readily available to develop it and that includes the right trainer and decoy. Wrong training and all you have is KNPV screwed up.
> 
> You indicated that you have a chosen a breeder. All the questions you've asked here, you should ask the breeder. How do THEY select their puppies for the work. What traits do they look for at what ages. What developemental stages do they see in their dogs. Best way to approach training at different ages/stages. To me, this is why you pay the big bucks--for this type of experience and information. Get video of your breeders typical 9 week old. Even better, baby videos vs. adult working videos.
> 
> T


 excellent advice Terrasita, But there is no one in Australia that knows or trains KNPV! 99.9% TALK Crap.


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## Christopher Jones

Frank La Fauci said:


> excellent advice Terrasita, But there is no one in Australia that knows or trains KNPV! 99.9% TALK Crap.


 Infact there is. Michael Kamphuis in Adelaide has titled 8 dogs in KNPV, is a certified KNPV trial decoy. His father was in the KNPV nationals twice and represented Holland in the first ever Mondio Ring World Championships in Belgium.


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## Frank La Fauci

I did say 99.9%.


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## Matt Vandart

Christopher Jones said:


> Infact there is. *Michael Kamphuis in Adelaide has titled 8 dogs in KNPV, is a certified KNPV trial decoy.* His father was in the KNPV nationals twice and represented Holland in the first ever Mondio Ring World Championships in Belgium.


Here's your answer dude! Contact this guy.

I also like Terrasita's quality post. I did think of suggesting you put a bite suit on yesterday but thought you had mentioned there being no clubs near you. If you're into MMA and are fit lad, good on your feet, fast reactions etc I think you could do well as a decoy dude!

This post also clears up alot I think and is a good response:



> again there has been a misunderstanding mike, another person on a post used the word beast and said they were common. so i started to say that i have handled a few of these so called "beasts" and was not that impressed. I completely agree with you and your spot on, normal for you is different to others, other people would call those puppies high drive. from my experiences you say high drive and see or get medium drive, you say normal drive you get low drive. a lot of breeders would get a hold of one of your normal arco puppies and then say it was an extreme animal.
> but that is exactly reason for the post "is this normal for a knpv puppy at 9 weeks, and if not what is?"
> i dont have a "standard" to measure by . i dont know any other way to explain myself, its like budgets or industry standards, you evaluate your financial performance at the end of the year in relation to the budgets you have set or by comparing your business to other companies in the same industry.
> i cant compare a knpv puppy to GSD litters i have seen or rotties etc, i have to compare them to other knpv puppies


I don't remember anyone saying they were common though, lol.


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## mike suttle

Michael, Here's the perfectly honest answer to your initial question regarding the video you posted: Is this normal for a 9 week old puppy?
I think the video shows a nice puppy with all of the suitable drives and character for the work. I may question whether he is 9 , 10, or 11 weeks old, but that doesn't really matter. The answer is that is normal for a good puppy who has been started in training the correct way by Peter Sommers. If that puppy had not been properly started in drive building, he may not have looked like that. So to be honest, if he had never in his life seen a back tie before, he had never had any frustration work, no grip building technique, no drive building of any kind until the moment this video was shot, then I'd say no, it is not normal. But since I know Peter Sommers, I also know that this puppy had seen that type of work for several weeks prior to the day this video was shot. Some people have a knack for building drive through frustration and knowing exactly when to release that frustration with a bite, and then know how to teach a correct grip once the frustrated puppy has been allowed to bite.
Now here's my sales pitch to you........
We are about to kick off a series of week long training courses here at our facility. One of those week long courses is puppy imprinting and developement, amoung many other topics of puppy imprinting, this course covers a great deal on building drive through frustratioin, and teaching correct gripping technique. Take a vacation to the USA for a week and learn about how it's done, we can also squeeze in a marksmanship class as well, and maybe shoot a few groundhogs out to about 800 meters or so.


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## Matt Vandart

That sounds very cool!


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## Michael Murphy

mike suttle said:


> Michael, Here's the perfectly honest answer to your initial question regarding the video you posted: Is this normal for a 9 week old puppy?
> I think the video shows a nice puppy with all of the suitable drives and character for the work. I may question whether he is 9 , 10, or 11 weeks old, but that doesn't really matter. The answer is that is normal for a good puppy who has been started in training the correct way by Peter Sommers. If that puppy had not been properly started in drive building, he may not have looked like that. So to be honest, if he had never in his life seen a back tie before, he had never had any frustration work, no grip building technique, no drive building of any kind until the moment this video was shot, then I'd say no, it is not normal. But since I know Peter Sommers, I also know that this puppy had seen that type of work for several weeks prior to the day this video was shot. Some people have a knack for building drive through frustration and knowing exactly when to release that frustration with a bite, and then know how to teach a correct grip once the frustrated puppy has been allowed to bite.
> Now here's my sales pitch to you........
> We are about to kick off a series of week long training courses here at our facility. One of those week long courses is puppy imprinting and developement, amoung many other topics of puppy imprinting, this course covers a great deal on building drive through frustratioin, and teaching correct gripping technique. Take a vacation to the USA for a week and learn about how it's done, we can also squeeze in a marksmanship class as well, and maybe shoot a few groundhogs out to about 800 meters or so.


yea, once i find out that the breeding has been successful i have been planning to ask questions on the correct way to build drive :-\" 

i hate you mike , i got assignments and final exams to do and then you tell me this. please tell my by about to kick of you mean after july [-o<, if so i actually should be able to take that vacation


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## Michael Murphy

Matt Vandart said:


> Here's your answer dude! Contact this guy.
> 
> I also like Terrasita's quality post. I did think of suggesting you put a bite suit on yesterday but thought you had mentioned there being no clubs near you. If you're into MMA and are fit lad, good on your feet, fast reactions etc I think you could do well as a decoy dude!
> 
> This post also clears up alot I think and is a good response:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember anyone saying they were common though, lol.


i would actually love to decoy, but honestly there is not much training around sydney.

i wouldnt mind actually taking a trip down to adelaide and checking out the dog sports club they got there, especially now that i know they got kamphius


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> yea, once i find out that the breeding has been successful i have been planning to ask questions on the correct way to build drive :-\"


Michael...use the search function on here first, before you ask the same questions that have been asked and answered 50 times already. And as you are doing that, use google, while you are also visiting and talking with someone that can help you in person.

No one here OWES you any kind of answers to anything.

Chill out, you already said someone else is picking out your puppy, when you go to get him, pick the breeders brain a little, and LISTEN to his answers and watch what he does...while you are there, ask him to test the puppies as if they were someone else's litter that he was going to get a pup from, get him on speed dial, and call him up when you have questions and concerns  

you certainly should not be thinking about getting another puppy until this one is older anyhow, so you have plenty of time to learn about things.

I gave you small set of questions, you answered a portion of them only.
sent me a video of two UFC fighters, for what I am not sure.

why dont we move on now to your GSD...
does he eat his food? will he chew on a toy or bone?


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## Michael Murphy

yes, he likes to eat whole chickens, so im guessing he bites on bones.
its thicker objects i think. 
do you think if i manage to get him to bite a on a bite pillow (he wont at all currently) , he could eventually move on to a sleeve, or is there too big a difference
i decoy tried to get him to bite one , worked really hard to get him motivated but he wouldnt. im thinking about purchasing one and using it to play fetch with, to get him really interested in it. he has very high ball drive, but even balls he doesnt bite down really hard on like my other dogs would, they would chew the crap out of them


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## Joby Becker

Frank La Fauci said:


> I did say 99.9%.


nope...you said 99.9% talk crap, and there is NO ONE there that knows or trains KNPV.


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> yes, he likes to eat whole chickens, so im guessing he bites on bones.
> its thicker objects i think.
> do you think if i manage to get him to bite a on a bite pillow (he wont at all currently) , he could eventually move on to a sleeve, or is there too big a difference
> i decoy tried to get him to bite one , worked really hard to get him motivated but he wouldnt. im thinking about purchasing one and using it to play fetch with, to get him really interested in it. he has very high ball drive, but even balls he doesnt bite down really hard on like my other dogs would, they would chew the crap out of them


how did he motivate him? 

I think buying one (a pillow) and playing with it should have been done well over a year honestly...but certainly would not hurt to start doing now...or a rag, or a tug, or anything...ever take a ball and tie a line to it? and see if he will hold it while you tug on it a little?

try that, shoot a video, and post it.


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## Michael Murphy

Joby Becker said:


> how did he motivate him?
> 
> I think buying one (a pillow) and playing with it should have been done well over a year honestly...but certainly would not hurt to start doing now...or a rag, or a tug, or anything...ever take a ball and tie a line to it? and see if he will hold it while you tug on it a little?
> 
> try that, shoot a video, and post it.


He does rag and tugs. But. not a thick pillow or anything else thick. I'll post a video after my exams


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> He does rag and tugs. But. not a thick pillow or anything else thick. I'll post a video after my exams


you know they make tugs as thick as a mans arm or even leg right?
um ok..when are your exams?


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## Robley Smith

NO! It is not normal for 9 week old KNPV pups to be listening to old school Accept. ](*,) The crap pups listen to these days...[-(


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## Christopher Jones

Robley Smith said:


> NO! It is not normal for 9 week old KNPV pups to be listening to old school Accept. ](*,) The crap pups listen to these days...[-(


Hey, hey, hey. There will be no bad mouthing of any old school metal bands on this forum or so help me God.....


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## Robley Smith

I wondered if I worded that poorly, lol. I meant that the opposite of how you took it. I even added the brick wall emoticon for....headbanging!


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