# Hey Doberman haters....



## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

A Doberman went HIT with 290 under Mike Hamilton this weekend. And yes, there were GSDs and a Mal also entered.

\\/


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I don't care who hit them, I still hate them...they're like lizards :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why would being the high scoring dog make you think that we will hate it less ? LOL 

I have never hated the Dobermann.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

who besides Gerry hates Dobermans?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I was a kid (50s) one of my uncles had two awesome red Dobes. They were still pretty much the real deal then.
I like the breed but as with many/most breeds, to many "pets" have been bred since then and their health problems scare me more then most breeds. I've known more then a couple that have dropped dead with heart problems. 
I even discussed that with someone that had done very well with them in the past in Schutzhund and she said the heart problems are in both show and working lines. She's been in Mals for a number of yrs now.
Not many other breeds are more graceful to watch run or jump though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> When I was a kid (50s) one of my uncles had two awesome red Dobes. They were still pretty much the real deal then.
> I like the breed but as with many/most breeds, to many "pets" have been bred since then and their health problems scare me more then most breeds. I've known more then a couple that have dropped dead with heart problems.
> I even discussed that with someone that had done very well with them in the past in Schutzhund and she said the heart problems are in both show and working lines. She's been in Mals for a number of yrs now.
> Not many other breeds are more graceful to watch run or jump though.


and not too many other breeds can put on an ugly face as good as the dobe..


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Erynn Lucas said:


> A Doberman went HIT with 290 under Mike Hamilton this weekend. And yes, there were GSDs and a Mal also entered.
> 
> \\/


A Mali k9!
Super job


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

A good dog is a good dog,no matter what breed.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

A army of shitters with one good soldier will still get its as woppt


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> A army of shitters with one good soldier will still get its as woppt



hahahahahahahahahaha


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I like them there just hard to come by, and I'm still waiting for Kara to post vides of what she thinks the monster doberman is, so I can maybe get one for myself or my folks.:-D


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

yes yes.monster dobe vids please I love dobies...


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I think we can all agree that no one hates the Dobermann. But when we are working dog folks, and collectively as a group we can only come up with a handfull of Dobermanns that actually work to any real standard, then it is hard for any of us to drool over them as a working breed.
Also, as far as a winning score of 290. Anyone who has ever owned a Dobermann will tell you that they are the easiest of about any breed to train. So in a sport that judges correctness, it should be hard for any breed to beat a Dobermann based only on score.
Take that same Dobermann and compare him to most of the GSDs and Malis that were in that trial in something outside of the SchH box that he was trained in, and I think you may see the wheels come off him pretty fast.
But a 290 score is a good score for sure and it took a lot of hard work and good training to achieve that score.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Per Mike.S : Take that same Dobermann and compare him to most of the GSDs and Malis that were in that trial in something outside of the SchH box that he was trained in, and I think you may see the wheels come off him pretty fast.

I would have to agree with the man, in the few and I say few because thats all I seen outside the box of sports they just dont hold a torch in real life application like the other breeds do. Not saying they dont exist but would love to see proof and also available to purchase because its a rarity.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

We put up videos on the other thread Harry!

Yes, most dpbermans aren't up to par with other breeds- but that's showlines people are basing the whole breed on. and showlines are unfortunately the majority of what you see. 
But there are some real nice lines out there, just not a lot of working homes to put them in. 


Oh and a lot of the working dobes are NOT easy to train, because they think about one thing- themselves. they can be real assholes, the real dobermans.


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

Who is this dog and are there any videos of the work? 
Would be interested to see and share with my friends.

My current dog is my first working Doberman. Easy to train since she is very smart and intelligent. Hard to train since she is very smart and intelligent and I need constantly be ahead of her in the thinking.:smile:
I love the Doberman breed.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Congrats, nice scores! I like dobermans. Lately I have not seen one that was not scattered brained. If you have a good working prospect, that's great. He's definitely a rarity and should be bred and maybe his genes will help build the working dobermans back up. 

Question what is HIT? I've never heard of that term before. Did you mean HOT (handler owner trained)?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Jones said:


> Congrats, nice scores! I like dobermans. Lately I have not seen one that was not scattered brained. If you have a good working prospect, that's great. He's definitely a rarity and should be bred and maybe his genes will help build the working dobermans back up.
> 
> Question what is HIT? I've never heard of that term before. Did you mean HOT (handler owner trained)?




High In Trial. What planet you live on? :-D JKN :wink:


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> High In Trial. What planet you live on? :-D JKN :wink:


 
Hey Bob, we don't use those acronymns here we just say high in trial. my bad!!![-(


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> We put up videos on the other thread Harry!
> 
> Yes, most dpbermans aren't up to par with other breeds- but that's showlines people are basing the whole breed on. and showlines are unfortunately the majority of what you see.
> But there are some real nice lines out there, just not a lot of working homes to put them in.
> ...


OK I went through them and dont see any that you posted of moster dobies Kara, Can you maybe repost it, I went through your four pages of recent threads and must of over looked maybe:-? or can u post the one that you are specifically referring to so we can get a insight of what your referring too please.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Hey Harry 
Tamara posted a bunch of videos In that thread with some ascomannis dogs doing ring, one of the dog mentioned here, ceaser the PSA vice national champion for level 2, a d a couple others.  

And for the other person that asked- the video of this trial isn't on youtube yet but I'm sure it will be soon. 
You can see his other training and trial by searching landgrafk9.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Having started in schutzhund with dobermans, and liking the breed, have to agree with Suttle on this one....


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Harry,

Here are the Video's that Tamara McIntosh posted in an earlier thread....


http://www.youtube.com/user/sonterra...92E0EC005EE3FC

Vadim's dog (PSA and french ring titled):

http://www.youtube.com/user/vadimys#p/u/7/YXnX6f7vmdE

http://www.youtube.com/user/vadimys#p/u/8/zwJgnBQiJho

Casar v pontiffhaus (PSA 2 vice natioanl ch):

http://www.youtube.com/user/k9nordgr.../0/n5nwYZ16fu0

Eiko v langraf (currently sch 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfGMk8x_xU

ascomannis ****** (mr3):

http://www.youtube.com/user/dozarzal.../4/JmiY1lJqRJI

and daughter (whom is now a mr 2):

http://www.youtube.com/user/dozarzal.../5/_RnC_F7p61k


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> But there are some real nice lines out there, just not a lot of working homes to put them in.
> 
> Oh and a lot of the working dobes are NOT easy to train, because they think about one thing- themselves. they can be real assholes, the real dobermans.


Tha way I see it, these are the two biggest issues contributing to the lack of quality Working Dobermans these days.

1) No good working homes, and 2) the dogs aren't always the most compliant...they typically have a mind of their own, so while they can be VERY correct and fast...it's not always easy to maintian those behaviours.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Tamara Champagne said:


> Harry,
> 
> Here are the Video's that Tamara McIntosh posted in an earlier thread....
> 
> ...


Appreciate it, so which one do you consider a monster dobie if there are any on here, I dont see any monsters on here, I see decent sport dogs but none that are what Kara called a monster. Not trying to be sarcastic trying to understand at what level of performance or workability is considered a monster for the dobie breed being that I have never owned one, but would consider it.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I don´t know what a "monster" is but this dobe I think is nice,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07e_bNk6hPk

Flinks seems happy with this bitch,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHrtGSbmt_U


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> I don´t know what a "monster" is but this dobe I think is nice,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07e_bNk6hPk
> 
> Flinks seems happy with this bitch,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHrtGSbmt_U


I have always liked Ilk, from what I have seen at least in Video.

I'm not sure which Dobermans I would call "monsters" but I have seen some nice representatives of the breed.

A female comes to mind "Escara vom Ferrenberg" as being a pretty tough bitch, but then I have only seen video and heard second hand stories from those that have worked her. 

My fave male at this time is Eiko vom Landgraf...he has a lot of natural aggression that I don't think a lot of people have seen in the breed in a long while. He will certainly be one to watch. 

Would I say he's a monster? I dunno, guess that depends on your definition of monster. He is an excellent dog though, and Wendy does a great job with him.


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## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

Erynn Lucas said:


> A Doberman went HIT with 290 under Mike Hamilton this weekend. And yes, there were GSDs and a Mal also entered.
> 
> \\/


How pleasant to read that!!!=D>=D>=D>
There are fewer and fewer really good Dobermans, so it is great news that the Doberman leads!
I wish the breed becomes more popular - it is a wonderful dog, but only in the experienced and skillful hands. Doberman needs constant business and being engaged in something intellectual all the time - that is a garantee of his success in nearly everything!


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> Flinks seems happy with this bitch,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHrtGSbmt_U


Watching that reminds me why I have trashed half the video footage I have ever taken or I have had to put music on it. People talking shit in the background all the time lol. I do it myself even.

I think the biggest issue with the Dobe is the lack of numbers and also the vast majority just cant back up their shit. They come out like demons and put on a good show but they cannot handle high amounts of pressure over a long peroid of time. This is why they show up in IPO but never do well in KNPV or Ring.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

A monster to me is a dog that works very well on the field and off the field too, and gas natural aggression and can handle almost anything thrown its way. 

I think a monster dobe would be the one this thread is originally about, and some old school real working dobermans like Cleo weyermuhle and some of the von bayern lines. The ascomannis G litter produced dogs that do very well in Mondio, along with a security dog, and a police dog that works in Europe.

There are not too many now a days, but you can find them, and I think the breed is making progress.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Tamara Champagne said:


> Tha way I see it, these are the two biggest issues contributing to the lack of quality Working Dobermans these days.
> 
> 1) No good working homes, and 2) the dogs aren't always the most compliant...they typically have a mind of their own, so while they can be VERY correct and fast...it's not always easy to maintian those behaviours.


I owned a Doberman bitch and really liked her but placed her as a 2 year old as she didn’t have the character for high level work. I love the breed but what holds me back is price. Lots of the “better” bred dogs are pushing 2 grand, that is a ton of money for a maybe. Given a choice I enjoy working anything other then a Shepherd breed, but they are normally more expensive and harder to find a good one.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Le sigh... there is no pleasing some folks.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Erynn Lucas said:


> Le sigh... there is no pleasing some folks.


Don't bother trying. We love Dobermanns because of the relationship we have with our dogs, not because someone else thinks they're tuff 
That's one of the reason I like mine all natural. I don't have to deal as much with the local yokel who's seen too many Magnum PI reruns VBG


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I don't have to deal as much with the local yokel who's seen too many Magnum PI reruns VBG


 I do like watching Magnum. 80's tv rocks.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I got a chance to meet 2 of Steve B’s dobermans this past week. NICE dogs. A pup off his new bitch I would have to consider


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Dobermenn are just special, they get into your blood and no other breed does that to me, can't explain why I can't imagine life without one upside down on my sofa. I love their independant spirit and their smiley faces and their running in circles and their stunning beauty. I know you don't see many in sports, in fact I see very few anywhere, it is a real shame. But when I am out walking the general public haven't heard about their decline as I am always given a wide berth and they pick up their small children! Great way to clear the park.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is exactly what the show people wanted. All the bullshit hype with a package that is useless. It is a shame.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

We don't hate dobermans! Dobermans are a lot like clothing models - pampered, anorexic looking, nerve bags that are practically useless - what's not to love


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Tamara Champagne said:


> Tha way I see it, these are the two biggest issues contributing to the lack of quality Working Dobermans these days.
> 
> 1) No good working homes, and 2) the dogs aren't always the most compliant...they typically have a mind of their own, so while they can be VERY correct and fast...it's not always easy to maintian those behaviours.


When I started out with the idea to get a dog, I wanted a doberman. Always liked them.

Then I found out 1) how few of them all are healthy, have good character, and drive, 2) how much the good ones cost, 3) what my chances were (as no one of any regard in the working dog arena) of actually getting the dog I wanted from a breeder. 

None of the dobermans I met localy were anything like what I wanted.

So then I got my first mal, who was everything I'd hoped for and then some. And never looked back.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Shane Woodlief said:


> We don't hate dobermans! Dobermans are a lot like clothing models - pampered, anorexic looking, nerve bags that are practically useless - what's not to love


Supermodels don't need good character or brains, they just have to walk pretty and strike a pose... :lol:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> A monster to me is a dog that works very well on the field and off the field too, and gas natural aggression and can handle almost anything thrown its way.
> 
> I think a monster dobe would be the one this thread is originally about, and some old school real working dobermans like Cleo weyermuhle and some of the von bayern lines. The ascomannis G litter produced dogs that do very well in Mondio, along with a security dog, and a police dog that works in Europe.
> 
> There are not too many now a days, but you can find them, and I think the breed is making progress.


Well hope your right, it would be nice to see the breed take a turn about and become known again for being a asshole breed thats know for being ruff and tuff, also hope the rott does the same in the future.JMO


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

I'm with you Harry.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Just showing some Dobi love, haters can eat it, all else enjoy.

Happy Holidays!!!


http://www.youtube.com/user/DogschoolK9#p/u/5/PIN82E78U-M

http://www.youtube.com/user/DogschoolK9#p/u/11/2sFM5-DtEOo

http://www.youtube.com/user/DogschoolK9#p/u/13/n9InbXvdrcs


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

It's true... Dobermans can cost a LOT. But, I also know of some lady that just got a 4 month sport prospect for 4 grand AFTER he was already returned to the breeder for a temperament issue.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Erynn Lucas said:


> It's true... Dobermans can cost a LOT. But, I also know of some lady that just got a 4 month sport prospect for 4 grand AFTER he was already returned to the breeder for a temperament issue.


If people are stupid enough to pay the money, the dogs will continue to be that expensive.

My current dobe was sent to me to try out for a year as a puppy, and if I liked him I would pay for him then. He was $1500 and well worth it. I would not pay $1500 for a puppy that I could not work for a bit first, because it is a crap shoot with a young puppy.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> If people are stupid enough to pay the money, the dogs will continue to be that expensive.
> 
> My current dobe was sent to me to try out for a year as a puppy, and if I liked him I would pay for him then. He was $1500 and well worth it. I would not pay $1500 for a puppy that I could not work for a bit first, because it is a crap shoot with a young puppy.
> 
> Tamara McIntosh


Hi Tamara

I remember reading about some Chinese guy that paid $250K
for a Showline GSD Seiger.
I wouldn't (couldn't either ) pay $4k for a 4 month old "prospect". What will it cost at 5 months, $5k or $6K at six months?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I know a guy that is pretty much an idiot in my book when it comes to working dogs. He charges 2500.00 per dobe pup and sells all his pups. His bitch can work, but is not really clear in the head, and his male was scared of his own shadow pretty much, luckily the guy moved the male and is trying with a better stud. 
But he is now telling eveyone that the stud he used is the best working dobie in Italy...which I have heard is not true...LOL..

My guess is he will sell all the pups for at least 2500.00, his target market is rich suburban folks, that most likely like to show people and talk about their $2500 pup, regardless if it is crappy or not.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Some sell all the puppies for 3000, and "popular" breeders at that. 
Just ridiculous.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> Some sell all the puppies for 3000, and "popular" breeders at that.
> Just ridiculous.


PT Barnum nailed it 150? years ago
"There's a sucker born every minute"


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I know a guy that is pretty much an idiot in my book when it comes to working dogs. He charges 2500.00 per dobe pup and sells all his pups. His bitch can work, but is not really clear in the head, and his male was scared of his own shadow pretty much, luckily the guy moved the male and is trying with a better stud.
> But he is now telling eveyone that the stud he used is the best working dobie in Italy...which I have heard is not true...LOL..
> 
> My guess is he will sell all the pups for at least 2500.00, his target market is rich suburban folks, that most likely like to show people and talk about their $2500 pup, regardless if it is crappy or not.





Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> Some sell all the puppies for 3000, and "popular" breeders at that.
> Just ridiculous.


Thats just plain straight up **** up, how do close your eyes at night knowing that you over charge people and bend them over and raped them for a dog or pup. People like this should be locked up for extortion, and taking out of the gene pool.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats just plain straight up **** up, how do close your eyes at night knowing that you over charge people and bend them over and raped them for a dog or pup. People like this should be locked up for extortion, and taking out of the gene pool.


Who knows...it *seems* that great dobermans are hard to find. Maybe some ARE worth that much to some people..Price=supply.

Why are "teddy bear: puppies selling for $2000.00 in my area..??? beats me...

The guy I know is selling pets to rich people as far as I can tell. His market is not the working dog crowd, yet...that is where the wake-up call will come I surmise...

I also suppose if these people paid the same High prices for the dogs they have, then it must not seem to them like they are ripping people off when they sell dogs for the same prices...

The guy I know, did a deal for a DOBE puppy, got a load of cash, and an adolescent DS on top of it for trade, a 2,2 Bono Pegge dog, I think. Not a SUPER dog, but a nice dutchie..certified narc dog now...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Who knows...it *seems* that great dobermans are hard to find. Maybe some ARE worth that much to some people..Price=supply.
> 
> Why are "teddy bear: puppies selling for $2000.00 in my area..??? beats me...
> 
> ...


WOW, thats crazy dude, I want some of what hes injecting LOL


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

People think the more they pay the better the dog? 
its not the same as alcohol people...


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

As someone said earlier, dobes aren´t that easily trained, they are more independet compared to herdingbreeds that have more of that "will to please", at least according to those who train dobes for SCH with good results. Afterall the breed was suposed to be on a leash and scare/bite people, not much else, when it was created.

As also was said, there are very few dobe-breders of workingdogs, this also makes it hard to find buyers for the more "monster" type of dobe because the best trainers have no reason to look for dobes when they have so much GSDs and mals to choose from. I know several dobes that have been put to sleep because of this, they were to much of a monster for their owners and I guess they figured this out.

I suppose people get a dobe because it´s a hobby, they like the breed and stick to it even if they aren´t the best at everything. To be fair not all dobes are so bad, some do pretty well in SCH. Herer are some clips from well known workingdobes in about 20-30 years ago,

http://www.youtube.com/user/LuckyLukeVJahrestal#p/u/0/74rxnbSBzr0

This one a famous one born in 1978,
http://www.youtube.com/user/LuckyLukeVJahrestal#p/u/5/_JcKKrSwxK4

I´m not sure but the cropping/docking laws has probably also diminished the popularity of the breed in Europe, if they were so much better workingdogs 30 years ago I guess up to debate, looking only at old SCH-competitions they don´t seem so much different than todays working dobes, a more recent one, all breed IPO-championship in sweden 2010, didn´t nailed the longbite this time thou, other from that not to bad,
http://www.vimeo.com/14647708


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

There are some nice old school dobes in this video. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74rxnbSBzr0


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> There are some nice old school dobes in this video.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74rxnbSBzr0


Geez you werent kidding when you said old were you, there were some nice old school dobies in that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is sad that the Dobe people have to go to the past to see some dogs that worked. HA HA. 

I was thinking of posting some of the many many shitter vids, but naa.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is sad that the Dobe people have to go to the past to see some dogs that worked. HA HA.
> 
> I was thinking of posting some of the many many shitter vids, but naa.


Nah I just wanted to share that video because I'm a fan of the old school dobes and lines that are still around today, nice to see original footage from popular dogs that are in pedigrees. 

There are good videos you can find for todays dobes too. Like the ones posted by Tamara.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

this one is interesting: http://www.dyenga.nl/Video.html


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## Nathan Seifrit (Oct 29, 2010)

Seeing there are more Dobermann lover's than haters participating on this thread and more probably reading same I would like to refresh my older post asking for help in finding an adult working Dobe. I am an experienced handler and am seeking a high level dog for PP/ Schu. I have an excellent all breed Schutzhund Club to train with. I am seeking that old school dog described above with a ton of heart and a pronounced civil aspect and hard hitting with natural aggression like Eiko or Bruno.

I realize good Dobermann's are few and far between.......and there are other breeds who excel here...but I am not willing to compromise. I do agree with Kara Fitzpartick and Tamara Chamagne that there are too few serious working homes for the more alpha dogs. I *do* offer a one-dog, one-person, no-other-pet working home to the right dog. I am only interested in a male and preferably a young adult. 

And for Erik Berg.....the next time you hear of a someone wanting to "put to sleep" a Dobermann because he's too much dog for his owner be sure to have them contact me first.
I believe you.......that is just too sad.......the fact is..... that some of the dogs that Harry Keely described as "monster" dogs........aren't seen because they challenged or intimidated their owners and were put down. Such a waste.:evil:

I have had the privilege of owning more than one old school hard Dobermann and would relish the opportunity to own and train just _one_ more such fine dogs. There is _nothing _that will beat a _good _Dobermann. No dog has more heart and is more loyal. (Can they also be stubborn......single-minded...and.....selectively deaf?.....Oh Yeah!) ](*,)
While he might not be H.I.T. on the trial field, he can be the Desert Eagle of dogs on the street. Were it not for the climatic limitations they inherit with their short coats, you would see more PSD Dobermann's.....(Oh, and the "Devil Dog" reputation they earned in WWII was not a "Hollywoodism" but was grudgingly given to them by the troops with whom they served.)

I'll get down from my soapbox now........thanks for letting me vent.

Just lemme' know if any of ya'll hear of one........I'll take 'im :!:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

As someone who served in the Marines, make sure you add that an awful lot of those dogs attacked their handlers and had to be put down as they could not deal with the noise. Many of them never made it off the beach. There were a few that distinguished themselves for sure. The problems with the Dobermann breed are no where near new, and the breed is infested with stupid problems thanks to it's high cost, and peoples egos. 

Love the breed, not sure what to do about most of the owners. Dipshits.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

First of all congratulations to Wendy and Eiko on what must have been a very nice performance. 

Thanks for posting some of the older video's. Some are pretty prevalent in the pedigrees in my dogs, so it was interesting to me. Some things I liked some did not overly impress me. 

I think it is very difficult sometimes to tell a whole lot about a dog from video. In terms of modern dogs posted in video's a lot of what I see is not very impressive at all. In terms of training, I see a lot of video's with a huge amount of prey attraction and then dogs being fed a sleeve. It literally is stuffed into their mouth. I had to stop visiting forums and watching video's partly because I thought if I saw one more helper popping a sleeve to get the dog to bite I was going to puke. Unfortunately many of the trials and ZTP's are not any better. In the Schutzhund world I believe this poses somewhat of a challenge because Dobermann breeders if they knew the difference to begin with (and I think more than a few do not), are left with dogs who have never had much pressure put on them. Because of this pure prey drive motivation, the sum of the dogs life experience is playing at Schutzhund. We don't have much of a clue how they will handle real pressure. We don't know how good the nerve or fight drive is because it is never really tested. If you do not know these things and you breed two dogs together who knows what you are going to get. In terms of Dobermann's having a lot of nerve problems, anyway this does not help the situation. If you breed two edgy dogs, often you are going to end up with a lot of nerve bags and shitters. A good working breeder has to strive for balance of drives and nerve. 

I don't know much about FR. What impresses me from what little I do know is the very long routines are going to weed out dogs without some perseverance and endurance, as well as structure to handle the physical demands. The part that perhaps does not impress me a whole lot, (but I confess I do not know that much) is that most of the bite work appears to be motivated by attraction as opposed to activeness of the dog. This aspect does not impress me as putting that much pressure on the dog. PSA, Mondio, KNVP is another matter perhaps but I know even less about them. 

There are really very few working line breeders of Dobermann's in the world. Period. It is much more profitable here (NA) and in Europe to breed show dogs. Many people are too ignorant to know the difference. I know one of the top Dobermann working line breeders in Germany said there is a limit to what he could produce (in terms of seriousness) because of how few homes he could place them in. Many would consider his kennel to produce THE most serious Dobermann's in recent years. So that should tell you something.

In terms of what Jeff O said about many Dobermann people, I wish I could offer an argument there, but...I don't like everyone I have met that handles the breed either. In my neck of the woods I am the only one at the club I train at who handles a Dobermann. 

I see very few Doberman's that I really like. I hope that can change but as long as Dobeermann handlers continue to coddle their dogs and view the world through rose colored glasses it will not. While in Germany a few years ago I saw some that were impressive. I think the dog I am working right now has potential. The little bitch I am working shows incredible promise. Right now she is certainly attracting some attention. Time will tell.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: We don't have much of a clue how they will handle real pressure. We don't know how good the nerve or fight drive is because it is never really tested.

OR, perhaps it was very obvious from the very beginning that the dog was going to melt like butter in the sun, and was trained the way he/she was to achieve the title and thus breed another wastoid litter of Doberfaggots. LOL

On a brighter note, I saw a decent Dobermann at the Mondio trial last weekend. I think they said IPO3 and now, Mondio 1. At least the bitch flat out had what it takes. Probably wasted too much time with the IPO to achieve a three, but it was real nice to see a Dobermann that wasn't half assing it.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> Then I found out 1) how few of them all are healthy, have good character, and drive, 2) how much the good ones cost, 3) what my chances were (as no one of any regard in the working dog arena) of actually getting the dog I wanted from a breeder.
> 
> None of the dobermans I met localy were anything like what I wanted.
> 
> So then I got my first mal, who was everything I'd hoped for and then some. And never looked back.


I couldn't count how many times I have heard this from people. Heck, they are the same reasons I left the breed. I had both Dobes and Malinois for a few years, but I got tired of paying large sums for Dobe's that I ended up washing, when a Malinois was only 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost. The last Dobe I tried to buy the breeder wanted 2000 (might have been 1800) plus half of her first two litters, and gave no gaurantees on working ability. And this was 14 or 15 years ago. At that time I could buy a good Malinois pup for 3-500, and FRIIIs were 2500-5000.

IMO the insane prices was the downfall of the breed, and it will stay that way unless something changes. People loyal to the breed will pay their money and take their chances. But people who are just interested in the breed, and would consider it as an option, will get something else that is cheaper and less risky. Many times a Malinois. And the breed looses another working home.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: We don't have much of a clue how they will handle real pressure. We don't know how good the nerve or fight drive is because it is never really tested.
> 
> OR, perhaps it was very obvious from the very beginning that the dog was going to melt like butter in the sun, and was trained the way he/she was to achieve the title and thus breed another wastoid litter of Doberfaggots. LOL
> 
> On a brighter note, I saw a decent Dobermann at the Mondio trial last weekend. I think they said IPO3 and now, Mondio 1. At least the bitch flat out had what it takes. Probably wasted too much time with the IPO to achieve a three, but it was real nice to see a Dobermann that wasn't half assing it.


Jeff u got any video of this bitch, would like to see a nice dobie.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Jeff u got any video of this bitch, would like to see a nice dobie.


My guess is that bitch would be Jet!!!, owned by new forum member Terri Clary. Maybe Terri will post us some video of Jet!!! getting her MR1 when she gets a chance?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is so cute to see the Dobermann people get all excited because 1 dog did something though. Most are such awful shitters.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: We don't have much of a clue how they will handle real pressure. We don't know how good the nerve or fight drive is because it is never really tested.
> 
> OR, perhaps it was very obvious from the very beginning that the dog was going to melt like butter in the sun, and was trained the way he/she was to achieve the title and thus breed another wastoid litter of Doberfaggots. LOL


 I have to agree, that is one scenario that is far too common. Another is the owners with rose colored glasses, are paying a trainer who has learned that to make the dog look good they have to train that way. These type of people believe that if the dog looks like shit then it must be the trainers fault, not the dogs. Rather than seek out one of the few good breeders in the world they just keep adding to the problem. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> On a brighter note, I saw a decent Dobermann at the Mondio trial last weekend. I think they said IPO3 and now, Mondio 1. At least the bitch flat out had what it takes. Probably wasted too much time with the IPO to achieve a three, but it was real nice to see a Dobermann that wasn't half assing it.


 Yeah that would have to be a Wustensturm B litter bitch bred by John Kowalczyk, one of the few decent working line Dobermann breeders in North America. He does not have a female anymore. His last two attempts to breed his nice bitch Evita (the dam of the dog you saw) were unsuccessful. His wife handles Bruno, a litter mate to the bitch who got the Mondio 1. Title. Hopefully if that bitch can be bred again (and she would be getting a little long in the tooth), the owner will choose a line breeding to a good male and that has a chance of producing something with some promise. Even when it comes to that there are so very few good males to choose from that it would be difficult to find a good match. That is another dilemma that breeders face. For example when I bred my bitch I went to Germany to breed to Calle v.d. Burgstatte, because he was one of the only males that had what I wanted. If I was a GSD breeder I could have gone to my own club and chose from about 10 males with the same or better quality of the dog in Germany. That trip and breeding attempt cost 3 or 4k and was unsuccessful. In addition the health testing a responsible Dobermann breeder has to do is extensive. Also when I looked at the very few dogs in North America that I would even consider then stud fee was from $1000 to $1800. Some of the stud owners would only do AI. When you start looking at these factors then you can begin to see why some of the costs of puppies are higher than you typical GSD or Malinois.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Steve Burger said:


> For example when I bred my bitch I went to Germany to breed to Calle v.d. Burgstatte, because he was one of the only males that had what I wanted. If I was a GSD breeder I could have gone to my own club and chose from about 10 males with the same or better quality of the dog in Germany. That trip and breeding attempt cost 3 or 4k and was unsuccessful. In addition the health testing a responsible Dobermann breeder has to do is extensive. Also when I looked at the very few dogs in North America that I would even consider then stud fee was from $1000 to $1800. Some of the stud owners would only do AI. When you start looking at these factors then you can begin to see why some of the costs of puppies are higher than you typical GSD or Malinois.


That's the catch-22 I see with the Dobe's, and I'm not sure how it's going to be fixed. It's going to be hard to attract people to the breed when pups are a higher risk and higher cost then other breeds. Generally high risk should go with low cost, or low risk should go with higher cost. But at the same time Dobe breeders shouldn't have to mortgage their house to fund a breeding program just so people can get cheap puppies. 

Are there any Dobe breeders out there who are either producing quality on a consistent enough basis, or gaurantee their pups, where paying the higher prices for a pup results in low risk that it won't turn out? If I decided to start looking tomorrow for a Dobe pup that had the potential to go to FRIII, and live long enough to get there (ie no cardio or other major health issues) who would be the short list of breeders I should talk to? It's only a semi-hypothetical question, I'm not looking now, I'm happy with the dogs I'm training/competing, but eventually I'd like to give another Dobe a shot.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

I don't know... maybe to an experienced person a working breeder might work a deal on price. It would be worth it to some to attract high level trainers to the breed.


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## Sami Kiiveri (May 3, 2007)

I had my dob in IPO two times IDC WM , and i trial him in our nationals whit best mals and gsd in Finland. I had him qualified in our national FCI IPO team 2008 in Wavre Belgium. Unfortunate his neck was injured in 5 years age and i had to but him sleep before the Wavre. Doberman has to many faults in health to be sport dog in bite sport. Its too difficult to find healthy sport dog in that breed. Today if you want compite in FCI WM level of IPO , doberman has not the drive needed there.
I love the breed , but i use malinois in my training 

All best
Sami
http://sport-dogs.net


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

I'd go to Wendy hands down for a puppy to train for French ring. 
Me and my bf are hopefully getting a male dobe pup in the near future from her to do just that. Nothing set in stone but we are hoping it all works out.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Tamara Champagne said:


> My guess is that bitch would be Jet!!!, owned by new forum member Terri Clary. Maybe Terri will post us some video of Jet!!! getting her MR1 when she gets a chance?


Hopely that would be cool because like Jeff said they have become to far few in between, I would just like to see it for the simple fact to know that there are still some out there with fight left in them. Hopely the owner will post, guess will have to sit back and see.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Because there are stuff all Dobies in any sport other than IPO, a dog that does well in that gets lauded as a top dog. The fact that a Dobie who manages to get a Korung is considered to be top of the food chain is also a total embrassment. To hear the working doberman people waxing lyrical about how the parents of their dog both passed the Korung is a joke.
Here is a video of the ultimate breed test for Dobermans The Korung. Oh and only about 50% that enter pass the character test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi9WXxFN0no&feature=related


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Here is a dog that someone I know bred to. I asked about the dog on here and received this link to his Korung test.

The dog passed, from what I can tell from the vid is he came off the bite in 2 different parts of the test, and still passed....

Is this typical for the Doberman Korung. I could see if it was performed like the Korung of the Mali...like the first A'Tim one. But his appears to be fairly mild, decoy is backing up or side stepping most of the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQKz788Z5T0


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I didn't see anyone video taping her routine.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Here is a dog that someone I know bred to. I asked about the dog on here and received this link to his Korung test.
> 
> The dog passed, from what I can tell from the vid is he came off the bite in 2 different parts of the test, and still passed....
> 
> ...


Unfortunately that is the case. The ZTP test in a lot of places is the same. One I saw on the net had the decoy sidestepping the whole time and no pressure after the bite. Last year in WA state at the ADA the decoy applied the kind of direct pressure you would reasonably expect in a test, and some if not more than half of the dogs folded. One handler in particular raised a big stink about it on the internet and even posted a video of her dog getting chased all the while blaming the decoy. Sad...

To be a little fair to the dogs, some of them perhaps had never ever seen real pressure before. I guess you could take that either way. I do think that is something in the training process that is different, even with a decent Dobie. I think you have to introduce pressure more gradually in the training regiment than you would with a GSD. I have heard some trainers say that to a degree the same can hold true with a Mali.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: To be a little fair to the dogs, some of them perhaps had never ever seen real pressure before. I guess you could take that either way. I do think that is something in the training process that is different, even with a decent Dobie. I think you have to introduce pressure more gradually in the training regime than you would with a GSD. I have heard some trainers say that to a degree the same can hold true with a Mali.

At some point "pressure" is a goof. How many thousands of times does a dog have to survive a few moments on a sleeve before he gets that he is not going to die ? 

If the dogs were running off, it is the quality of the dog, not the "pressure".

People continue to train shitters and after very careful training, they go an event like this, and in the end, a shitter with a title is still just a shitter with a title. 

I find it discouraging that the reaction was to blame the helper. Shame on that person for even bothering to train that dog. THat is the kind of whore mentality that is a bit much in the Dobermanns.

I applaud anyone that works a dog, even a shitter, but to be amazed that the dog is a shitter ? How embarrassing is that ? HA HA


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Here is a dog that someone I know bred to. I asked about the dog on here and received this link to his Korung test.
> 
> The dog passed, from what I can tell from the vid is he came off the bite in 2 different parts of the test, and still passed....
> 
> ...


Klingbach is a show kennel from Germany. The breeder is one of the show judges that does the ZTP tests. You can draw your own conclusions from that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Unfortunately that is the case. The ZTP test in a lot of places is the same. One I saw on the net had the decoy sidestepping the whole time and no pressure after the bite. Last year in WA state at the ADA the decoy applied the kind of direct pressure you would reasonably expect in a test, and some if not more than half of the dogs folded. One handler in particular raised a big stink about it on the internet and even posted a video of her dog getting chased all the while blaming the decoy. Sad...
> 
> To be a little fair to the dogs, some of them perhaps had never ever seen real pressure before. I guess you could take that either way. I do think that is something in the training process that is different, even with a decent Dobie. I think you have to introduce pressure more gradually in the training regiment than you would with a GSD. I have heard some trainers say that to a degree the same can hold true with a Mali.


any links to that video? of the dobie...getting chased?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Here is a dog that someone I know bred to. I asked about the dog on here and received this link to his Korung test.
> 
> The dog passed, from what I can tell from the vid is he came off the bite in 2 different parts of the test, and still passed....
> 
> ...





Steve Burger said:


> Klingbach is a show kennel from Germany. The breeder is one of the show judges that does the ZTP tests. You can draw your own conclusions from that.


I believe credentials are a must for breeding whether the Kor is accurate or not it must be seen by the public YouTube is a bonus we all cant be there I wish all modern Kor's and BST's were on video for all to see its good to out all this shit and the people doing it. :mrgreen:
And another thing if you don't do your homework or find someone credible that's in the know to help you you get what take.
There are some nice Dobermans out there in fact one of the nicest dogs to step foot in this state in many years is a Doberman this ****er is a MONSTER with nerves of steel I seen NONE of the typical dobie baggage with this dog the handler has been training Dobermans in Schutzhund since the early 80's and has never tried to hide any thing about her dogs and has nothing to hide with this one.


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## Terri Clary (Dec 8, 2010)

LOL! A friend told me I needed to check this thread...not normally a title that would attract me  Will post the video when I have time. Until then here is Jet!!!'s FR Brevet 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OyWL5W0K2A&NR=1

and there are vids of most of my dogs there.

Entry level PSA work here..
http://www.vimeo.com/17623346
http://www.vimeo.com/17623406

See Ya, T


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> any links to that video? of the dobie...getting chased?


No and I just heard about it at the time, and then recently read the post on another site. I am not sure how productive that would be anyway. I have been trying to avoid getting involved in bullshit. I was at the event in question as a spectator.I had actually seen the dog 6 months before that and it showed a bit of promise at the time. Who knows with halfway decent training it might have turned out to be an ok dog. As it was at 15-16 months it had no business being out there.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> No and I just heard about it at the time, and then recently read the post on another site. I am not sure how productive that would be anyway. I have been trying to avoid getting involved in bullshit. I was at the event in question as a spectator.I had actually seen the dog 6 months before that and it showed a bit of promise at the time. Who knows with halfway decent training it might have turned out to be an ok dog. As it was at 15-16 months it had no business being out there.


Figures...I some about it after reading your post.
Lady sure did blame the decoy, I just wanted to see it, so I could make up my own mind...
but if the dog was not ready, should not have been out there.....end of story...and if he was supposedly ready, and did not do well, then it is still not the decoys fault...


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> At some point "pressure" is a goof. How many thousands of times does a dog have to survive a few moments on a sleeve before he gets that he is not going to die ?HA HA


 Whatever. In this case it is an issue of someone coming straight at them, instead of the sideways shuffle, jackrabbit dance that they probably are used to seeing. Not in terms of what happened after they have the sleeve in their mouth. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If the dogs were running off, it is the quality of the dog, not the "pressure".HA HA


Well to a degree I agree with you, but a mediocre to average dog who has never seen even a moderate amount of pressure might struggle. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> People continue to train shitters and after very careful training, they go an event like this, and in the end, a shitter with a title is still just a shitter with a title.
> 
> I find it discouraging that the reaction was to blame the helper. Shame on that person for even bothering to train that dog. THat is the kind of whore mentality that is a bit much in the Dobermanns.
> 
> I applaud anyone that works a dog, even a shitter, but to be amazed that the dog is a shitter ? How embarrassing is that ?


 I wish I could disagree but have to agree with a lot of what you are saying here. Though in some of those cases I don't even think there was any "careful training". The difference being with the event I mentioned the helper wasn't "playing the game" that many handlers expect. 

As far as a temperament test when you have show people in charge of the judging process then it is a slippery slope. I have been around enough of the GSD world to see what the show people accept as far as "working ability" to know it is in many cases a farce. The Dobermann world does not have a corner on this aspect of bullshit. I have seen my share of shitters with long hair as well. For me at this point I don't really give a shit. The only value I see at this point in the ZTP or Korung is that our German brothers would be in hot water if they allowed their dogs to breed to a dog without a ZTP. When it comes time to breed it will be to the best dog available. Chances are that dog may live in a part of the world where a ZTP is required. Other than that I place a lot more value in what I see in the course of training the dog, and what people who actually know something about working dogs have to say.


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas (Oct 1, 2009)

Iliked this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeuIPxrn9nM

The dog looks pretty confident beside the decoy with lack of training resources that thinks that slaping a dog is part of the training.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Well to a degree I agree with you, but a mediocre to average dog who has never seen even a moderate amount of pressure might struggle.


And if it is a mediocre to average dog, it should not be bred from. It should be ran from the field. You only need a stink average dog to pass the character part of the Dobermann Korung. One piss weak attack from the blind and a SchH 1 courage test. Thats it. 
Go ask the DMC what a Korung should look like. Then when a Dobermann has it then you can be proud somewhat of their character.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74rxnbSBzr0&feature=related

This is what they used to be.........


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Okay bottom line of this thread in my eyes is that there are not tons of great dobes out there. But there are some from the few working breeders trying to improve the breed. There are still awesome dobermans, and what ygr doberman used to be, and the working breeders are keeping that dog alive. 
You may not see many, but I think there will be more coming in the future with the improvements in the US towards the working dog and not the show dogs.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> Okay bottom line of this thread in my eyes is that there are not tons of great dobes out there. But there are some from the few working breeders trying to improve the breed. There are still awesome dobermans, and what ygr doberman used to be, and the working breeders are keeping that dog alive.
> You may not see many, but I think there will be more coming in the future with the improvements in the US towards the working dog and not the show dogs.


 My biggest concern however Kara is what is the goal of even the working breeders? The reality is the doing IPO to a good level is the goal. Until we see Dobermans competing in high level KNPV, Ring and PSD work then they are never going to be an option for working people. They will only ever be seen as a off-breed to do IPO with, nothing else. 
I guess the questioned should be asked of all working Dobermann people, what is the goal you would like the Dobermann to get to?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: There are still awesome dobermans,

Where ? I have not seen one yet posted here that is alive. It is rare enough to see a Dobermann that actually ACTS like the dogs I remember. I do not see awesome Dobermanns, and if you think you saw one, you need to raise the bar a whole hell of a lot.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Maybe I do need to raise my bar but I've already said what dogs I think are nice. Landgraf dobes, ascomannis has bred dogs that have great successnun mondio ring and a police and security dog out of its g litter. 
Ceaser the PSA vice national champion, Bruno wustensturm. 

Beating a dead horse here. 
I just found out my flight out of France might be canceled due to snow and I'm really pissed off btw. This thread not helping!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The one litter ? LOL I am sure that Jimmy is devastated that you might have to stay longer. HA HA. 

Go north on a train and see Laurent and tell him to give you a Sarco daughter for me. That will give you something to do besides be angry about missing a flight.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUote: 
The dog looks pretty confident beside the decoy with lack of training resources that thinks that slaping a dog is part of the training

Some dogs spin up from the pinch and some drop out of drive. Maybe this is the case. If the smack makes what he is trying to get across clearer, why not use it ?


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Lol Jeff! Will do ill drop the pup off on my way home. 
Jimmy is coming back with me., but he's calm about it. Lol. 
I'm the more irrational, crazy one. 
He says hi! 

And no it was not just one litter!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

East coast girls crazy and irrational ? No, say it aint so ! Tell Jimmy I have been working on my training field, and now just have to convince grass to grow. May not be an easy sell though, winter, no water, Goddamn SAND but no beach. What am I thinking living in Texas. 

I say hi back, and that he needs to post on WDF.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

East coast girls are the best whatre you talking about. 
Ill tell him to post here- might be a little hard for him but his English is really getting very good. 

I taught him the word twat and he brought it up in dinner conversation with my parents- priceless. 

Yes come train on the east side- better girls AND training!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why in the **** would you teach him the word "twat" ?? LOL When I first met Jimmy in October of last year, his english was minimal, then I see him in April, and he is translating for me. I was really impressed.

Stop with the Dobermann crap, and get a nice Mal or Shepherd. LOL

Tell him to post anyway, that way I can talk to him here, and not just facebook. : )


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

We might be getting a doberman in the near future! Jimmy likes dobes! 
Hey I like mals too- I love to have both. 

Ill sign him up here but don't know if hell come on. 
I teach him many dirty words, its too funny lol! 
Meanwhile ive been here for 3 months and still can't speak french.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was in central america for a while, and they all wanted to work on their english so I can't speak spanish for shit.

I know dirty words in many languages after playing soccer since I was a kid.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I believe credentials are a must for breeding whether the Kor is accurate or not it must be seen by the public YouTube is a bonus we all cant be there I wish all modern Kor's and BST's were on video for all to see its good to out all this shit and the people doing it. :mrgreen:
> And another thing if you don't do your homework or find someone credible that's in the know to help you you get what take.
> There are some nice Dobermans out there in fact one of the nicest dogs to step foot in this state in many years is a Doberman this ****er is a MONSTER with nerves of steel I seen NONE of the typical dobie baggage with this dog the handler has been training Dobermans in Schutzhund since the early 80's and has never tried to hide any thing about her dogs and has nothing to hide with this one.


 Who is the handler and which dog? I would like to know. I don't say that in terms of being skeptical or anything, I just like to be informed of good dogs, because they are so few and far between.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> And if it is a mediocre to average dog, it should not be bred from. It should be ran from the field. You only need a stink average dog to pass the character part of the Dobermann Korung. One piss weak attack from the blind and a SchH 1 courage test. Thats it.
> Go ask the DMC what a Korung should look like. Then when a Dobermann has it then you can be proud somewhat of their character.


Really? I agree that average dogs should not be part of a breeding pool. But in terms of being ran from the field.... If that were a fact then there would not be enough dogs for the handlers in the world. And I am not talking about Dobermann's. IMO a fairly high percentage of people working any dog in any venue have pretty average to mediocre dogs. I am not speaking of dogs which would be classified in the shitter range.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> My biggest concern however Kara is what is the goal of even the working breeders? The reality is the doing IPO to a good level is the goal. Until we see Dobermans competing in high level KNPV, Ring and PSD work then they are never going to be an option for working people. They will only ever be seen as a off-breed to do IPO with, nothing else.
> I guess the questioned should be asked of all working Dobermann people, what is the goal you would like the Dobermann to get to?


 Oh great, lets add a pissing contest between venues to the mix. I am not as well educated as I should be about other venues. That said...while a lot of what I see is real cool, a lot of what I see looks like a lot of butt-load of prey attraction, some of the other stuff I see is fluff. 

I will be the first to admit that I do not like the way a lot of people in Schutzhund approach the work world- wide. What we do at our club is to continue to maintain a high standard. Each club member tries to obtain the best dog available within their means. BTW I am the only one at the club with a Dobermann. The training regiment is designed to develop a balance of drives within the dog. In the protection phase we do our best to make it about the man not the equipment. While the early foundation work is prey, as the dog matures we try our best to develop offensive fight drive in the dog. We try to make it real. This is the approach that will bring about the best chance of success at the highest levels in the sport under the most difficult of judges. 

I had a conversation with a new member of our club who came from a PSA and ring background (credentialed helper in those venues). He still loves the venues he worked in and speaks with a lot of passion about them. At the same time he told me he could chase damn near every dog he encountered in the venues he had worked in if he really wanted to. He also said a lot of dogs he has worked and that have had success in FR would not be able to handle the pressure of what we are doing at our Schutzhund club. Again I do not want to get into a dog or venue pissing match. I think than any venue if approached in the right way can be an excellent way to evaluate the quality of a dog. 

To be honest I almost dreaded reading the thread when I read the title. I don't think it is in anyone's best interest to start a thread in such a manner. I do understand however, the sentiment. Hey, I admit my first thought was what were the other dogs in the trial like. 

I cannot speak for other people, but what I would think in terms of a working breeder, would be to continue to improve working drives, and to develop good balance in drive and nerve structure. I have long conversations with John Kowalczyk who produced the famous Wustensturm b litter. We are on the same page. We agree that most people interested in the Dobermann do not have the same goals as we do. I think that the goals of producing the best Schutzhund dog should match the goals of someone trying to attain the best dog for any venue. What we are looking for cannot be any different. What we envision the dog to look like for the protection work is extremely intense prey drive, a high degree of offensive fight drive, and hardness of nerve to not back down.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: There are still awesome dobermans,
> 
> Where ? I have not seen one yet posted here that is alive. It is rare enough to see a Dobermann that actually ACTS like the dogs I remember. I do not see awesome Dobermanns, and if you think you saw one, you need to raise the bar a whole hell of a lot.


 There are a few out there, and the fact there are only a few is IMO pretty sad. But you said it when there a lot of dipshits in the breed what do you expect. In terms of raising the bar, I agree wholeheartedly that the Dobermann community must raise the bar considerably if there is much hope for the breed. 

In a recent post on Dobermann forum someone posted a video of Bruno taking down the helper at the DVG Nationals this year. There were a lot of stupid comments made in the posts that followed. Below is the link to the courage test and the handlers post after all was said and done in the thread. I think it is worth reading so I cut and pasted it:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v91sCC-Zpm0

Hi, I am Bruno’s trainer and handler (and John's wife). It was only recently that I discovered this thread, as I don’t spend much time on forums. The only reason I had previously joined this one was to thank some folks for their well wishes for Bruno. Initially, I was a little upset about this thread, but now after some reflection, I’m more surprised than anything else that a simple video would conjure up such emotional discussion and debate.

After reading Julie’s response to John which narrated Bruno’s failures on the trial field, I was at first upset, but then I realized….why should anyone who has probably only seen this dog in pictures and some video clips think any differently? And why wouldn’t anyone ask this question: Why the heck would a woman with over 20 years of experience in the sport, all with German shepherds, who has competed at National level competitions, keep spending the money to take this dog to national events, only to fail? Why, indeed….

So here’s the simple answer… Heart. Bruno’s heart. I’ve never owned a dog that pushed me more to become a better trainer. I have no illusions….there are many holes in his early training foundation, and other obstacles we have tried to overcome, that will probably keep us off the podium at a national event. But that’s not why I am there. I am there because I have always felt that Bruno is the epitome of what a working Doberman should be. This is not reflected in his trial scores, but from the many comments, compliments, and kudos I have received about him…not only from the Doberman community, but from what I refer to as “Non-dobe” people. Judges, world-class trainers and handlers, and national level helpers who have been kind enough to take the time to tell me, “hey, that’s a really nice dog…better luck next time”. It is unfortunate that this isn’t reflected in his scorebook, but it doesn’t matter…it’s what keeps me going back for more.

The other reason I keep going with him… for people like John. Working Doberman enthusiasts who have defended the breed for many years by continuously stepping out on the trial field, often the lone Doberman entered, and changing the sad, misguided perception of the breed… that they can’t compete at the same level as GSD’s. By striving to breed only the best characteristics for the working dog, he has stayed committed to improving not only the breed itself for the sport, but also the perception of the breed…and has changed the opinion of a few rather biased folks along the way. Bruno is a product of that commitment… and a member of one of the most successful litters of Working Dobermans. So I feel lucky to have the opportunity to help improve the perception of the breed. Fortunately for me (and Bruno), most people with experience in this sport don’t judge the dog’s character or temperament only by his scorebook, or a bad grip on a sleeve that stayed in his mouth when the helper came down.


Bruno’s failures on the trial field are my failures… I take responsibility for them. They are not a reflection of this dog’s potential or temperament. The reason Bruno sometimes bites the elbow on the courage test is simple… he is inexperienced in this exercise and therefore, he doesn’t target very well. I don’t practice long courage tests with Bruno. The only ones he has seen for the most part are on the trial field. Why? Because he has been hurt on this exercise a couple of times, one of which I was afraid would be career-ending. So, not practicing this exercise is a risk I’m willing to take to keep him safe and out on the trial field. His grips on the rest of the protection routine are generally full and hard on the sweet spot of the sleeve, because we practice these. But on a field-length courage test, many times what happens is that good helpers like Marty at the DVG Nationals will start to turn to get out of Bruno’s way, and in doing so, that can change the visual target of the sweet spot. Bruno just takes what he gets and won’t let go. He’s a pretty solid dog, and likes to be physical, so sometimes he’ll get a helper off balance. He’s pulled a few helpers down…mostly because the helpers were smart enough to move with the impact and make sure that Bruno didn’t get hurt. I find it interesting that the pink ribbon is given as a mark of shame…because as a competitor with a dog like Bruno who just targets the middle of the man, I think a helper’s best work is when he puts his ego aside and looks out for the dog…even if it means going down. I made a point to tell Marty this after the trial, and thanked him for taking care of Bruno.

So there you have it. Sorry for the length of this post, but I felt it was time for me to speak out and clarify some perceptions. I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion about Bruno…”it is what it is” (my motto when I walk out on the trial field). But I thank you for listening. And thanks to all who have tirelessly supported Bruno, throughout his less-than-illustrious career.

I’ll leave you with one piece of advice for those interested in pursuing the sport: Do not let the comments of others, failure on the trial field, and frustrations in training dissuade you in striving for success in the sport. It has many rewards, and if you don’t take it too seriously, have a thick skin, and most importantly, believe in the potential of your dog…then you will have success, measured by your own definition, not a scorebook’s.

Best wishes, 
Tammy Kowalczyk


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> When I was a kid (50s) one of my uncles had two awesome red Dobes. They were still pretty much the real deal then.
> I like the breed but as with many/most breeds, to many "pets" have been bred since then and their health problems scare me more then most breeds. I've known more then a couple that have dropped dead with heart problems.
> I even discussed that with someone that had done very well with them in the past in Schutzhund and she said the heart problems are in both show and working lines. She's been in Mals for a number of yrs now.
> Not many other breeds are more graceful to watch run or jump though.


This is indeed a sad fact. If I were to switch breeds this would be the primary reason. There is a little more hope now. VwD can be tested for with DNA so there is no reason to breed affected dogs anymore. In the last 2 months there is now a test for one (hopefully THE) of the genetic markers for Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM). While it is too early to tell if there are other contributing factors or markers it is a start.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: At the same time he told me he could chase damn near every dog he encountered in the venues he had worked in if he really wanted to.

It is his responsibility to have done what needed to be done to take points from the dogs. If he could have chased a ring three, it was on him to have done so, and by not doing it, he went along with the whole plan of making lessor dogs something they are not. If the dog doesn't belong on the field, then take him off of it. That is the simple truth.

It was nice to see a video of this dog. Somehow points are what most people measure a dog by, yet I was looking at where a dog named Half placed at the bsp and he was in 70th place. He is in quite a few pedigrees. It is time for the people that trial dogs that can be corrected hard enough to obey to realize that they are not dealing with high end dogs, but middle of the road dogs. I happen to have a dog that I could beat retarded, and if he makes a fight with the decoy, is going to do what he wants, and damn the consequence. I have had them before, but I am pretty sure that most people have not, and so somehow that kind of dog is not looked on as a good dog, or the training is bad, or whatever. I am sure that many many Dobermann people the first time their dog got hurt would quit the sport. kudos for this woman who said **** it and kept going.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: At the same time he told me he could chase damn near every dog he encountered in the venues he had worked in if he really wanted to.
> 
> It is his responsibility to have done what needed to be done to take points from the dogs. If he could have chased a ring three, it was on him to have done so, and by not doing it, he went along with the whole plan of making lessor dogs something they are not. If the dog doesn't belong on the field, then take him off of it. That is the simple truth.
> 
> It was nice to see a video of this dog. Somehow points are what most people measure a dog by, yet I was looking at where a dog named Half placed at the bsp and he was in 70th place. He is in quite a few pedigrees. It is time for the people that trial dogs that can be corrected hard enough to obey to realize that they are not dealing with high end dogs, but middle of the road dogs. I happen to have a dog that I could beat retarded, and if he makes a fight with the decoy, is going to do what he wants, and damn the consequence. I have had them before, but I am pretty sure that most people have not, and so somehow that kind of dog is not looked on as a good dog, or the training is bad, or whatever. I am sure that many many Dobermann people the first time their dog got hurt would quit the sport. kudos for this woman who said **** it and kept going.


We have a dog at the club like you describe. Before he came to our club, he would not out with 2 Dogtra's turned up to 127 and an electric sleeve. Tough boy. That kind of approach just made the dog nuts. He is exciting to watch, if not for the performance then wondering if he will get DQ'd at any time. In the last 2 years since getting a title he has been bred more than all the rest of the dogs at the club put together, so at least the Canadians are trying to develop some hard dogs. 

In terms of what the decoy said, It's possible I misinterpreted some of what he was saying, but I think that was the jist of it. 

Tammy is a good trainer. I have seen her handle a hard-headed Korbalbach dog and is not afraid to roll around in the mud and the blood.


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