# Hard Dogs (specifically to the handler)



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

"thats the kinda hardness I like in a dog Marta ... heck with my clumsiness and ineptitude it takes a dog like that to bear me LOL"- Brian Anderson

Brian stated this in response to Marta saying you could stand on her dogs toes with little to no response from the dog. Not sure if Brian was joking about the type of dog he likes. But I have heard other people say the same thing.

So a handler hard dog, Not a handler aggressive dog. But just a dog who is not very responsive to his handler. 

Why is this so sought after. I know when selling my dogs many people specifically asked for a dog that showed handler hardness. I myself have never worried about this to much. I guess Addie was a little hard in Protection. She was a little more aware of me in OB. But in protection it would fustrate me to no end when she would get so obsessed about the helper that even a high level correction could not get her attention. What good is all that drive if you cannot get the dog's attention?

Another thing I have noticed is that I may have actually caused this. Through the traditional drive building of making the dog absolutley crazy for the game and maybe ill timed and applied corrections. I may have basically just desensitized the dog to me. I do not know.

What makes me think this, is her son is a lot more dog than she was at year old. But yet he still minds me. I think because I have been much better at teaching the idea: the only way to the reward is by listening to me. I did not do all the crazy drive building games. I think just teach the dog the way to the toy is act like a wild animal. 

So is it trained? or is it a genetic trait. Proabaly a little bit of both. I am willing to bet a hardness to the handler shows an imbalance in the relationship. 

And the other question. What benefit is a handler hard dog? I have not seen anything that tells me a handler hard dog has any more fight or courage than a dog that minds his handler a little more. 

I am actually enjoying very much that my new dog gives a shit about what I am asking him to do. I think this is a much bigger asset than a dog that will blow off the handler.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My dog cares very much about what I ask him to do, he just doesn't care if I'm standing on his toes at the time.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

So D. Is that something you want in a dog?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_".... a dog who is not very responsive to his handler."_


Not my definition of "hard" at all.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_""thats the kinda hardness I like in a dog Marta ... heck with my clumsiness and ineptitude it takes a dog like that to bear me LOL""_


My guess is that someone would say this, not looking for a lack of responsiveness. but because a hard dog (a dog who handles corrections casually/calmly) can be a blessing to a trainer who may make mistakes and give inappropriate corrections.

JMO!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _""thats the kinda hardness I like in a dog Marta ... heck with my clumsiness and ineptitude it takes a dog like that to bear me LOL""_
> 
> 
> My guess is that someone would say this, not looking for a lack of responsiveness. but because a hard dog (a dog who handles corrections casually/calmly) can be a blessing to a trainer who may make mistakes and give inappropriate corrections.
> ...


I can see not wanting a dog that is sensitive to correction. And reading Brians post, I get that's where he was going with that. 

I would say a dog that is sensitive enough to change his behavior in response to a correction But is strong enough to react with little aversion is not a "hard" dog. That would be a normal dog. Cause in a perfect world, this is what we all would want.

I guess when people tell me thier dog is handler hard the picture I get in my brain is a dog that is little bit beyond just not being sensitive to a correction from a collar. Cause what's the term for a dog that takes a correction of massive proportion and does not blink, nor changes his behavior? 

My idea of a handler hard dog, Is the handler has diffculty getting the dog to respond to him with what in a normal dog would be sufficent motivation.

And Connie if you called a man selling a dog you wanted to buy, and he said, well the dog is handler hard. You would take that as the dog will respond to correction, but show no ill effect and that's it?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

James Downey said:


> So D. Is that something you want in a dog?


Yes. Quoting myself from a couple days ago elsewhere...



> My dogs need to have the desire to perform the training requirements in spite of one's rough handling skills.  I'm not an exciting person, my dogs need to bring the enthusiasm to the work. I'm not a great communicator, my dogs need to decipher what I want from them. I'm not a delicate handler, my dogs need to move past feeling bad and stay on task. If they can stay focused, forgiving, willing, and not shut down, then that's my kind of dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James 
I think most people view it as not being affected negatively by actions of the handler, including the handlers emotions displayed in training, a dog that either shows no negative reaction, or no lasting reaction...

this does not mean that the dog does not respond to the handler to most people...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Cause what's the term for a dog that takes a correction of massive proportion and does not blink, nor changes his behavior?"_


Hard.

All that really matters, probably, is that everyone agrees on what the term means.

To me, hard doesn't mean unresponsive. It means taking a correction in stride, or the opposite of a soft dog.

JMO, though!




eta
Both Daryl and Joby give definitions I'd agree with .... no negative lasting reaction to actions of the handler.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> ... And Connie if you called a man selling a dog you wanted to buy, and he said, well the dog is handler hard. You would take that as the dog will respond to correction, but show no ill effect and that's it?


I guess I'd ask what he meant by that. :lol:


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I think that there is a perception that a handler hard dog is just a hard dog overall, and is much tougher (and more real?) than a handler sensitive dog. 

What degree of hardness is ideal is up to the handler. I don't want to have to punch my dog in the head just to get his attention, but then again, nor do I want him so sensitive that just looking at him funny, or accidently whacking him with a swinging arm in heel is going to shut him down. A bit of hardness allows for some forgiveness for my ineptitude as a handler. A bit of softness means I have a willing dog who wants to work with me.

I like a sensitive, responsive dog. Maybe because that's how I see my dogs. My mal is reactive and volatile and can be oh ****, I'm in trouble one moment and ready to rock and roll the next. The DS is a little less reactive, but has her sucky girl moments as well as her kick ass moments. Wherever they fall on the hardness scale, they suit me and they're as 'real' as I want them to be.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

To me, a hard dog is one who can handle pressure/adversity and remain resilient, a dog who doesn't deteriorate or become depressed when faced with physical or mental stress regardless of the source of the stress (handler or otherwise). I think a dog can be very hard but remain very handler compliant, meaning while he certainly can handle hard corrections/stress, he doesn't necessarily require them in order to be trained/handled.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I guess I'd ask what he meant by that. :lol:


Yeah, Me too.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

A hard dog isn't an insensitive prick (pun intended). I suppose it's not uncommon for a hard dog to be stubborn or willfully independant, but not at all what I'd care for. Some people associate (confuse) such as 'dominance' as well. Not my view. The dynamic of relationship you have with your dog is perhaps even MORE paramount to the other independant factors that govern how your dog performs.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

James firstly, I'd like to say you bring some really good discussion to the table that I believe are helpful to people reading them and sometimes colorful lol. Good topic

Yes when I say hard I am referring to the dogs ability to cope with a correction or an "event". Can he recover from ____ (fill in the blank) with little to no problem ...or! Does he even need to recover....I have often accused dogs of having "to much" nerve for their own good but that is another topic... 
I am not equating "hardness" with the dogs want to ignore or whatever. I also am not saying that a softer (less able to withstand correction and longer time of recovery) is necessarily a less than dog. 

You mention drive building and some of the associated things that have happened when your doing it. I seldom if ever build drive in a dog. I try to get a dog that has it built in... flip a switch and away he goes no need to add anything. Does that mean I always get that? Heck no!! But I do have a few dogs and have had a number of them that were on go when they hit the ground. But with every positive there are sometimes negatives. The binging ass high energy dog that bounces around and ALWAYS wants to work is probably not the dog for a lot of people. BUT he can give you more time in the "pocket" when your training or your in the actual work (hopefully that makes sense). 

Good topic and interesting read!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Daryl Ehret said:


> A hard dog isn't an insensitive prick (pun intended). I suppose it's not uncommon for a hard dog to be stubborn or willfully independant, but not at all what I'd care for. Some people associate (confuse) such as 'dominance' as well. Not my view. The dynamic of relationship you have with your dog is perhaps even MORE paramount to the other independant factors that govern how your dog performs.


Daryl we are in 100% agreement. Nice way to explain it too...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> ... when I say hard I am referring to the dogs ability to cope with a correction or an "event". Can he recover from ____ (fill in the blank) with little to no problem ...or! Does he even need to recover....



What he said.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And I do think that your right Connie, People want that harder dog to absorb the lack of skill by the handler. But I do not think it works like that. I think on the surface "hard" dogs show very little collateral damage to a correction. But in reality, overtime, those ill corrections (And I am not even sure they have to be ill corrections) start to chip away at the dog.And the harder the dog, the harder it is to see. Some dogs slowly go flat,Some dogs slowly get more and more hectic, some dogs slowly stop responding to the correction, Some dogs sick and tired of it and bite, some dogs get sick and tired of it and stop working, Some dogs release thier negative effect in some other part of training. Some dogs literally think the correction becomes part of the process to a reward. In a senstive dog it's just easier to see.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> A hard dog isn't an insensitive prick (pun intended). I suppose it's not uncommon for a hard dog to be stubborn or willfully independant, but not at all what I'd care for. Some people associate (confuse) such as 'dominance' as well. Not my view. The dynamic of relationship you have with your dog is perhaps even MORE paramount to the other independant factors that govern how your dog performs.


 
I can get down with that. The definitions everyone here collectively agrees on, is by far more thought out and I think fair. Now, I did use my definition of Handler hard To start this conversation..Until now! I think the definition explained by most here strikes me as one of derived from experience beyond my own. I say that because, I used my definition that I had, which was "sold" to me from trainers I met along the way. And of course dealing with puppy buyers. but I think that one thing we (me, the trainers, puppy buyers) all had in common, was maybe a lack of experience to derive a better, more accurate and concise definition. So, at the start of this I was getting fustrated, because your defintions did not jive with mine...and basically did not fit my equation. but I am glad I was able to here you all out. Because, This was one of those times that has changed the way I think. 

Thanks Brian for the compliment. And just to be fair. By no means was I trying to insinuate that was your definition. That post just brought to the front of my mind the topic. I have been on my own as far as training for the last year. And I have been with 2 mentors for the last 6 or so years. One of them for four, and one of them for 2. 

So, For the first time in my training career. I have to sift through all the stuff I have been taught and try to decide what's going to work for me and what is not. And sometimes it's tough to question things that people whom you deeply respect have taught you. So most of my posts and threads I have been starting have been me thinking out loud to the internal battles I have withing. And right now in my training, almost everything is experiment. At times it's been hard to throw out the old ideas when the evidence proves the old ideas are just not true.

And everyone on the board in some form or another is seeing the ideas floating through my head.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

James Downey said:


> And I do think that your right Connie, People want that harder dog to absorb the lack of skill by the handler. But I do not think it works like that. I think on the surface "hard" dogs show very little collateral damage to a correction. But in reality, overtime, those ill corrections (And I am not even sure they have to be ill corrections) start to chip away at the dog.And the harder the dog, the harder it is to see. Some dogs slowly go flat,Some dogs slowly get more and more hectic, some dogs slowly stop responding to the correction, Some dogs sick and tired of it and bite, some dogs get sick and tired of it and stop working, Some dogs release thier negative effect in some other part of training. Some dogs literally think the correction becomes part of the process to a reward. In a senstive dog it's just easier to see.



One of the things that it took me a long time to understand and accept about working with dogs is a dogs built in self defeating behavior and how quickly it could manifest itself outwardly. I think that is whats going on in a lot of cases of your thinking on the dog stopping to respond, getting tired of it etc. Just conditioning like any other. I'm no expert by any stretch. But I have messed with them a long time. I still learn things all the time.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

An interesting discussion. Only about 2 days ago a person asked me if my dog was "hard." I didn't know what to say. He can be super responsive and sensitive to me during obedience, but when he's in high drive in bitework, it's an entirely different story. Sometimes he seems totally hard... but other times he seems really handler sensitive... So even after reading all of this, I still have no idea what to say when somebody asks if my dog is "hard." LOL


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Erica Boling said:


> An interesting discussion. Only about 2 days ago a person asked me if my dog was "hard." I didn't know what to say. He can be super responsive and sensitive to me during obedience, but when he's in high drive in bitework, it's an entirely different story. Sometimes he seems totally hard... but other times he seems really handler sensitive... So even after reading all of this, I still have no idea what to say when somebody asks if my dog is "hard." LOL


probably all you have to say is "I like him" LOL ... thats all that matters really :-D


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> One of the things that it took me a long time to understand and accept about working with dogs is a dogs built in self defeating behavior and how quickly it could manifest itself outwardly. I think that is whats going on in a lot of cases of your thinking on the dog stopping to respond, getting tired of it etc. Just conditioning like any other. I'm no expert by any stretch. But I have messed with them a long time. I still learn things all the time.


 
Absolutley. About 2 years ago, I abandon anytype of correction collar on my dog....Advice from a successful handler. I was not to eager to do this. I actually was pretty defiant about it at first. But for lack of a better option I tried it. I was amazed at what I found. I found, That I sucked at rewarding behaviors and limiting access to reward. I leanred I helped my dog a lot more than I thought I did. I learned my dog was using the collars almost predictors to when something would happen. Best thing I ever did in my training career was limit my options. 

So, I have a new dog about a year old now. And I have not used a collar simply because I have not needed it. And I am about to start employing it again. I am quite nervous about this. Because....I do not awaken those self-defeating behaviors. 

The one thing I forgot to add up top. Was, I found that I was much more inconsistent with the rules of the game when I was allowed to use correciton collars. I am now, Much, much more stern about the rules....because without collars, you have to be. The only correction you have is being a hard ass about when the dog gets a reward. Cause if your not...the dog will be so confused by you being wishy washy about your criteria. 

So, That's my goal with the collars. I want to draw up a plan that makes them as clear as my reward program is now. I have some ideas on how to accomplish this. But like I said before...it's all an experiement.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Absolutley. About 2 years ago, I abandon anytype of correction collar on my dog....Advice from a successful handler. I was not to eager to do this. I actually was pretty defiant about it at first. But for lack of a better option I tried it. I was amazed at what I found. I found, That I sucked at rewarding behaviors and limiting access to reward. I leanred I helped my dog a lot more than I thought I did. I learned my dog was using the collars almost predictors to when something would happen. Best thing I ever did in my training career was limit my options.
> 
> So, I have a new dog about a year old now. And I have not used a collar simply because I have not needed it. And I am about to start employing it again. I am quite nervous about this. Because....I do not awaken those self-defeating behaviors.
> 
> ...



I go back +8 yrs when I stopped using a leash for correction or training but I could have written you post almost word for word. 
I believe my training took a quantum leap when I started training sans leash and correction collars. In particular, as you mentioned, in being more consistent with the rules. The collar made it to easy to MAKE the dog do something only because you want it. Make the dog want it and life is good! 
Will I still use a leash and corrections if I need them? YES! I just haven't needed them for some time now.............and my dogs are better off without one in my hands. :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> And I do think that your right Connie, People want that harder dog to absorb the lack of skill by the handler. But I do not think it works like that. I think on the surface "hard" dogs show very little collateral damage to a correction. But in reality, overtime, those ill corrections (And I am not even sure they have to be ill corrections) start to chip away at the dog.And the harder the dog, the harder it is to see. Some dogs slowly go flat,Some dogs slowly get more and more hectic, some dogs slowly stop responding to the correction, Some dogs sick and tired of it and bite, some dogs get sick and tired of it and stop working, Some dogs release thier negative effect in some other part of training. Some dogs literally think the correction becomes part of the process to a reward. In a senstive dog it's just easier to see.


I will add to this that some people want a harder dog, not because they lack the skill in training, but because of the style of training they use, and/or the timeline they need to do it in.. I can agree with what you said, but would not say it is absolute...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Or maybe its just a matter of personality preference. The dog could be not the least bit sensitive to correction yet fairly biddable. He takes correction with the spirit of "ohhhh, did you want something." He's not the least bit handler aggressive. I prefer to use motivational training a much as possible but would still prefer this type of dog.

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I will add to this that some people want a harder dog, not because they lack the skill in training, but because of the style of training they use, and/or the timeline they need to do it in.. I can agree with what you said, but would not say it is absolute...


 
Now this I have seen, And I have seen people do well.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> probably all you have to say is "I like him" LOL ... thats all that matters really :-D


 True... very true... Love this dog (most of the time)! And things are never quite so black and white, are they?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Or maybe its just a matter of personality preference. The dog could be not the least bit sensitive to correction yet fairly biddable. He takes correction with the spirit of "ohhhh, did you want something." He's not the least bit handler aggressive. I prefer to use motivational training a much as possible but would still prefer this type of dog.
> 
> T


Me too Terrasita... I guess it boils down to what I am going to try to do with the dog. If time is limited and I need to put a lot of control on a dog and get him ready for serious shit ... I need a dog that can stand a lot of pressure in order to make it happen as quickly as possible. Guys like Suttle and a few others I know exist in this kind of realm all the time. Nothing wrong with a softer dog depending on goals and timelines. JMHO


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Absolutley. About 2 years ago, I abandon anytype of correction collar on my dog....Advice from a successful handler. I was not to eager to do this. I actually was pretty defiant about it at first. But for lack of a better option I tried it. I was amazed at what I found. I found, That I sucked at rewarding behaviors and limiting access to reward. I leanred I helped my dog a lot more than I thought I did. I learned my dog was using the collars almost predictors to when something would happen. Best thing I ever did in my training career was limit my options.
> 
> So, I have a new dog about a year old now. And I have not used a collar simply because I have not needed it. And I am about to start employing it again. I am quite nervous about this. Because....I do not awaken those self-defeating behaviors.
> 
> ...


James it may sound funny/strange but I have learned a LOT of what I do with dogs believe it or not from a horse trainer down the way from where I live. She is a really good trainer! I have adapted a lot of her techniques and shaped them to fit a dog instead of a horse. One of those things is working with the dog with no line or collar to teach behaviors. A horse obviously cannot be strong armed around like a dog so it forces you to learn to use the animals mind to manipulate him through repitition and reward. Thats where I learned to use chutes and a lot of the other stuff I do. It forces you to understand the root of behaviors and to think about what it will take to effect a skill or movement etc. I think your on the right track....I'm always interested in new ways of getting it done...


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Erica Boling said:


> True... very true... Love this dog (most of the time)! And things are never quite so black and white, are they?


I personally would not consider what you described as "hard" but more like "hard enough"....


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I personally like a hard dog. I don't mind some sensitivity as its like adding power steering.... But at the same time, if you can get in the hard dogs mind and communicate well, Ill take the less sensitive more hard. Much harder to break or defeat... Cuz its "hard" lol. The point of a hard dog is not to make repeated mistakes in training/ corrections... It's to never have to worry about those mistakes when you do... Ill also say there seems to be a direct correlation between handler hardness and overall hardness and recovery... At least in my experience... And who doesn't want that?


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> I personally would not consider what you described as "hard" but more like "hard enough"....


Yes, I'm happy with what I have.  I have another dog that was training for search and rescue. I did trailing with her. To me, she was too soft of a dog. The tiniest thing on my end would go right down the leash to her, and it didn't take much for her to shut down or go into avoidance behaviors when things got a bit stressful. My Malinois bounces back from corrections with tail up and wagging whereas my other dog did not bounce back as quickly. There is also a big difference in their drive too, and I think that also plays a role in how easily they recover from corrections/stress and want to continue working.


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