# No risk at all here.



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Because I know I suck at accuracy, however, here is an attempt to rectum-fy the situation with my dobes. This one is becca, the one whose heelwork was quite correctly pointed out to suck, from a sport point of view.
Problem for me is as I am new to sports I have never had to pay any particular attention to such high levels of accuracy before, my heel position has always been in about a 'that'll do' kind of position. Also I would never have a PPD that was constantly fixated with my face as quite obviously it's not much use to me if it's looking at me all the time, I aint gonna try and mug myself. I would normally actively discourage a dog walking in a start gazing position, I want it to look around and be aware of the environment.
However seeing as I don't need to train PP anymore and I am looking to get into IPO then I obviously need better accuracy and attention.
Here is a vid of my first real attempt to remedy the situation this morning in the yard with minimal distractions.
Any and All hints tips and criticisms welcome gratefully:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ1rkCuj5cM&feature=youtu.be

Note: I am not looking to get the full star gazing thing going here, like in Stafans video, I am however looking to stop her 'checking out' all the time.
Thanks!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Because I know I suck at accuracy, however, here is an attempt to rectum-fy the situation with my dobes. This one is becca, the one whose heelwork was quite correctly pointed out to suck, from a sport point of view.
> Problem for me is as I am new to sports I have never had to pay any particular attention to such high levels of accuracy before, my heel position has always been in about a 'that'll do' kind of position. Also I would never have a PPD that was constantly fixated with my face as quite obviously it's not much use to me if it's looking at me all the time, I aint gonna try and mug myself. I would normally actively discourage a dog walking in a start gazing position, I want it to look around and be aware of the environment.
> However seeing as I don't need to train PP anymore and I am looking to get into IPO then I obviously need better accuracy and attention.
> Here is a vid of my first real attempt to remedy the situation this morning in the yard with minimal distractions.
> ...


Not gonna offer advice orcriticize too much here at all, since I am in the same boat with you as far as really needing or wanting precise focused heeling.

I watched the entire video and although I could see the improvement happening, I was left with the sense that the training going on itself, could have been more focused on focus.  I got the sense that there was alot going on, busier than what I was expecting. 

Just my take.

Thanks for sharing this video.

I never share vids of my obedience, even though I do think it is pretty good and powerful in its own way, and functional, with some pretty goofy stuff that I added in, for my own amusement, it is not of a highly competitive caliber in regards to preciseness for IPO or obedience competition. MAYBE JUST MAYBE...You have inspired me to try to tighten it up some..


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt,

Actually her heeling isn't all that bad for a beginner.
See if you can get her to catch bits of hot dog you spit from your mouth that will get her focus on your face. If not then bring your hand/food up to your mouth after you've marked (clicker or verbal) before feeding her. Heel along a wall or fence so her butt doesn't have a chance to swing out. Reward in the same position every time (pin your wrist to you hip so she's in exact position when she gets rewarded. Start slow and reward more often for 3-5 steps before you try to heel across the yard.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Awesome, thanks for the replies!

@Joby- yeah mun, problem is I get bored before her so I gotta mix it up a bit for my own sanity! hahahahahaha! See what you can get going on dude, chuck a vid up here and we'll have an um, er, what you ma-call it OB-off hahahahaha!

@Thomas- I will try the food spitting malarky, I have taught her to catch treats I throw at her so it might go well, might not, either way I will try the wall and spitting thing, I have tried the wall thing before and it sorted the swinging out but I soon screwed it up again once away from the wall. The problem is MY inconsistency, like I said this accuracy thing is so alien to me it's like learning everything all over again  + 

sometimes I get the feeling me and my dogs have hit a OB training plateau.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok had a go again today, here is a vid. Because I am a bit of a moron I placed the camera in exactly the wrong place so you sorta gotta watch the dogs shadow to see any improvement.
It's more about is this the right approach do you think than the result anyway. Here is the vid complete with slapstick moment, tilly first, then Becca the Sali:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjqpOK7Vaw&feature=youtu.be

I'll try and get a better camera angle tomorrow.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Are you marking when the dog is correct? It seems you walk a bit then back up while getting the dog to follow. To much at one time. 
If you use markers then you mark and reward for correct position. Don't worry about keeping the dogs attention by backing up. Once the correct behavior is marked then the dog is free. THEN continue with more heeling. Add more steps and add them gradually. Also mark and reward randomly. You want the dog to think every step it takes is rewardable. RANDOM! ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Are you marking when the dog is correct? It seems you walk a bit then back up while getting the dog to follow. To much at one time.
> If you use markers then you mark and reward for correct position. Don't worry about keeping the dogs attention by backing up. Once the correct behavior is marked then the dog is free. THEN continue with more heeling. Add more steps and add them gradually. Also mark and reward randomly. You want the dog to think every step it takes is rewardable. RANDOM! ;-)



+1, but also, _are_ you marking? I can't hear the marker, so I wasn't sure.





Thomas Barriano said:


> ... Start slow and reward more often for 3-5 steps before you try to heel across the yard.


+1

I don't think you have hit a plateau so much; I think you just might be doing too much at once. 

Posting ob training clips is great, IMO.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah I'm marking with 'yes' then running back with food as a reward and thanks!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok here is this morning episode, I think there is improvement but Tilly has not the same staying power as Becca, I shall have to shorten up the sessions and avoid one more time syndrome:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do_Eu7GxCXc&feature=youtu.be

Oh and adjust MY attitude a bit, lol, but these dobes have really been a roller-coaster ride so far.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: latest clip
note** not a complete review ... only watched the first two minutes a few times
not sure which dobe this is
hard to hear commands ... i heard a few heels, a down and one definite "yes"

in the first 2 minutes, as you were heeling fwd in a straight line, you suddenly backed up ... i counted about ten repetitions
..... so i'm having a hard time connecting the dots for what the sudden backing up has to do with heel training....assume it is a reward and you are trying to make the dog run back to you to get it ? am i close ?
...seems more like a lotta "game over" rewarding after 2-4 steps fwd

you are aware the dog should remain in a heel and sit when you stop, right ? and if you took one step back the dog should also move slightly back to stay on your hip ? ....etc etc 
.... if so, when are you planning to start training that ?

sometimes you just took a couple steps and lunged backwards and even tho this is rewarding, it also seems to break her focus, and looks like you are expecting her to get back in position too quickly before you start moving ahead again

imo she is ready now ... if you stop and she sits you can reward immediately and keep her focused ,,,, slam her one quick treat and continue fussing ... or you could also take one slow step back and see if she adjusts and reward if she does 
.... but to each his own 

your left hand position is not consistent and all over the place; sometimes down at your side and sometimes up, but at various different levels on your chest and almost never swinging normally like your right hand is....if you are trying to give the dog a consistent handler picture to focus on, might this inconsistency confuse it ? or is this being done for a reason ? 

by all means, if this is too confusing, nitpicky or off base with what your plan is, let me know whether i should watch and comment on the remaining five minutes


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

cool, nice one rick.
everything you are describing I am doing on purpose for a reason.
Backing up= reward event
I'm using my left hand to move her head position up wards, then down by my side to test if it will stay there.
Check this vid (from about 1:50 if you can't be arsed to watch the lot):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjPaKPRW6Zk


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

whatever works...works..

but why back up at all? seems like the dog would associate the following you back, more than the forward heeling, as the reason for the reward.

why not just mark and reward while heeling in position?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Tried that, didn't work, lol
All it did was taught them to watch me when they were sitting, as soon as I step off they would check out.
I'm working on the principal (in my head anyway) that if they don't watch me they will miss me fuarking off, sorta like the Koehler method without the unpleasant bit, lol, it seems to be working.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Matt,

I must admit I cannot get what you are doing.

Before you start the obedience, do you really get the dog absolutely crazed up to start working? 

Tugging with it until it has nothing else but the tug in its head - then hide the tug and start *correct* obedience work.

Or, playing ball with it in the same manner - hiding the ball and then starting *correct *obedience work.

When the dog is really high in drive it is easy to correct without taking substance from it, obviously providing the training time is short - pause - start again but with the dog being driven into the highest drive.

I am not a marker trainer (have nothing againt it however).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Tried that, didn't work, lol
> All it did was taught them to watch me when they were sitting, as soon as I step off they would check out.
> I'm working on the principal (in my head anyway) that if they don't watch me they will miss me fuarking off, sorta like the Koehler method without the unpleasant bit, lol, it seems to be working.


if it works it works, not gonna argue with that one at all


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ok i didn't have to be "arsed" .... i watched the work on the placement pad ... the entire vid 

back to my previous post 
i took some time to try and explain a few observations ,,, in detail 
re: "Backing up= reward event"
not a lot of detail there, so i'll add some for you and put a few words in your mouth 

making the reward an "event" is a quote out of the Ellis book 
it works fine...when it is applied correctly

imo you did it excessively with too many reps
iow....your sudden backing up and rewarding the front was in some cases longer than the heeling steps taken forward (couple steps fwd and twice as many back)

the way it seemed to me when i watched it was more reward "event" than heeling practice 
....that's why i counted how many times you did it in under 2 minutes 

there are better ways to mark/reward and continue the rep you have planned, and that is why i offered TWO ways you could do just that 

which is what i think Joby was just referring to also 

re: the kitchen session ... i don't know which vid came first, but if you liked what you got in the kitchen, and it "worked" why not continue the same plan outside and build on it ?
...as in : heel to a place pad, rotate on it, mark, and add the straight section moving fwd again ???

good luck w/ both dobes
they'll be heeling like champs in no time


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I like the last idea Rick.
Reward event is indeed an Ellis term, I can call it a reward gig or concert if you want  but I have been using reward events for years e.g complusion heeling then reward play.
I said 'if you can't be arsed' because they aren't the most exciting vids tbh, lol

All this comes down to their foundation, I trained them to look ahead when they heeled and be aware of the environment.
So now they are having confusion as I am trying to rectify/replace this.

So this is what happens atm. 
Stationary heel: sitting looking at me, all is tidy beans as I get them to do this before I let them off leash.
As soon as it's motion time they tend towards their foundation.

I said above why I am not reinforce, reinforce, reinforce, reward.
They will just check out at the first reinforcement.

Right here is a video of them about a year ago at about a year old when I had finished training heel to the level I would normally train my PPD, (with compulsion and reward) hence the thinking the reinforcment is the reward. Also in working trials this accuracy is not necesary particularly.
It is when I started with all this IPO malarky that shit started going wrong for me, (not long after this vid, as I need no PPD where we live now but wanted something to do with my dogs), like I said I am not used to all this accuracy, it is very hard for me to time for exact position/accuracy, 20 years of 'that'll do' is hard to erase, lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-7yzUAGfKE

Another problem I have is I have taught them to fixate on targets (objects) to facilitate an accurate alert bark so if there is shit out of the ordinary on the scene they will pay attention to that in anticipation of an alert excercise I think, in this case it seems to be the camera, you can see this happen with Tilly in the last vid. All of this prior training is making it difficult grrrrr
Do you see my dilemma? I have been thinking of extinguishing everything and starting again tbh.

@Gillian- at the moment I am using food to motivate them but chucking in some movement to keep up their interest. Tilly actually prefers to bugger about and rough-house than food, which is what I started doing with her in the last vid. I will wind them up like kids toys when I go back down the field and use the ball with Becca, this is how I normally train, but I cannot get the accuracy like that, because of my limitations explained above. Tilly has low ball drive so I will just wrestle with her and let her jump and spin as a reward.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh and by the way I have been made aware that I am rewarding the dogs out of place all the time, I can see this in the vid, but the problem is I don't recognize it when I am actually doing it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rewarding out of place isn't a problem *IF* you mark the correct position. If that's done then the mark is also a release. You got what you wanted, marked it and reward. No need for the dog to stay in position once marked.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Looks pretty good to me for starters. Was going to suggest that if ur a personal protection guy, you could probably teach the motivational, accurate ob heel on the L and the protection ob w/o focus heel on the R.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Well Tilly used to be heeled on the right, so that is an added thing also.
Not bothering with PP with these dogs, no need for one anymore as above.

Well It may have been a confusing method, crazy even, but it worked. Turn sound down, much wind noise, first few minutes are a bit iffy but the rest is cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODQJM-c-vyg&feature=youtu.be

Now to fix the stationary heel and wide heeling.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> I like the last idea Rick.
> Reward event is indeed an Ellis term, I can call it a reward gig or concert if you want  but I have been using reward events for years e.g complusion heeling then reward play.
> I said 'if you can't be arsed' because they aren't the most exciting vids tbh, lol
> 
> ...


??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5YhP-WrAsg


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Well Tilly used to be heeled on the right, so that is an added thing also.
> Not bothering with PP with these dogs, no need for one anymore as above.
> 
> Well It may have been a confusing method, crazy even, but it worked. Turn sound down, much wind noise, first few minutes are a bit iffy but the rest is cool:
> ...


good stuff Matt, good thread, thanks for sharing


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> ??
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5YhP-WrAsg


Yeah that vid was when I started to train for IPO after the last time someone pointed out their heeling sucked on a doberman forum, lol.
That heel is still a compulsion/reward (drive/force/drive) trained heel but attempting to get some attention, and succeeding by the looks of it, lol.
TBH they did much more work for less reward back when I trained like this.
It was after this comment of their heeling being shit that I started looking into positive reinforcement (rather than reward) training, which is when shit started going wrong maybe.
Probably because I am not used to it and am shit at it, rather than the system itself.

Edit: and here is the rectumfying of the static heel, which has gone shite after this last episode of attention shizzle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Gh9IFYAj0&feature=youtu.be


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

It was this video here that started my interest in IPO, it was linked to me by a doberman forum member and I couldn't believe you could get a dog to heel like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4pnMOoLC7w

Yes I had been living under a stone all my life.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh and thanks Joby!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok and attempt at more precision:


Becca:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBToaQ2wsQM&feature=youtu.be

Tilly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2TU4QIcLCw&feature=youtu.be

Hints, tips, appreciated as usual.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Attempting to iron out a few....uhum... discrepancies......
:-\"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BvsHACQeUk


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Used some obstacles to tighten up turns a bit more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47dhA0AaRI4


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Well here is Becca doing half a BH routine as I only had half a group and one of them was doing the filming, lol 
Luckily a real group came along so I took advantage and heeled her through the bunch of kids that turned up, unfortunately out of camera, typical 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td-m58moMD4&feature=youtu.be


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Reducing reinforcement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJlXfdJy_20&feature=youtu.be


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