# Just what is a trained dog by today's standards?



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Do y'all consider a trained dog one that is just trained to perform very specific tasks such as bite work. One that has enough obedience to get through a BH by the skin of their teeth but can't be left in the house unsupervised? What does the word trained mean today? I know the motivational answer to things, like countersurfing ,that make a dog fun to have in the house is not to put anything on the counter. The answer to not getting in the garbage is to not keep the garbage where they can get at it. Does the removal of items from the counter, the gabage being inaccessible make a trained dog in you mind? Just what is considered a trained dog these days. I am curious because it seems to be a trained dog is one that can perform a specific task but has nothing to do with the dog being taught how to act outside of the venue it is trained for.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

In my opinion a trained dog first and foremost is a dog you can live with in a certain environment stress free and comfortably.. That is the most important thing to me. For instance, I don't want to worry about any screw ups in the house.

My dogs roam free day and night plus when I'm not home. I refuse to put the garbage can in the kitchen out of reach. It is my responsibility to teach them house manners.

To me that is at least as important as more "formal" training. I want to enjoy my dogs and I believe they have a much better quality of life when not trapped all the time.

I do own crates. I notice guests are more relaxed when they know the dogs are securely locked down. But that is for the guest's benefit. My dogs have been taught to leave guests alone. If I have a guest here that is comfortable with them loose I don't crate them. 

I have not been able to teach my female not to give them that very unsettling evil eye as she studies every move they make.:grin:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I think you are too wrapped up in the great crate debate and so on Don, should we discuss it in yet another thread!? 

Obviously it depends on who's standards. Your standards of obedience would not be enough for me for example, but it is good enough for you because your dogs hunt well, load up in the truck and can come inside occasionally without getting on your counters. I am cool with that if you are...do you consider them trained?

As far as I am concerned my dog is never finished training. It is ongoing through out the life of the dog. Having a dog that can be left at home alone like the vast majority of dogs can be, does not equal a trained dog to me. 

I have dog that works with me at work in the winter off leash around a lot of distractions, and not only in drive. There is a fair amount of obedience and focus required to get through a day. That dog also has to spend a lot of time at work in a small box outside and not complain either...part of the job. There is aslo a formal obedience portion to what I do, but it is pass / fail only.

The same dog comes home and lives inside and leaves my garbage and the like alone and doesnt need to be crated. This is not a big deal for this dog and I don't think that this dog is some kind of special deal, or "really well trained".

I also have a new dog that lives outside in a kennel. She is definately not trained as she is half a year old. 

I am impressed by dogs that can perform in real world or competitive venues where a lot of drive vs control is needed, and still seem kind of normal:mrgreen: I think that kind of stuff requires some training.

I would say that if you are talking about the general public, they would consider a dog "trained" if it will sit and down on command, "come" when called and not piss and crap in the house.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jennifer, I agree totally that you are never done teaching a dog.

I did not include that OB in public is immensely important to me. These are big mean looking dogs to the average Joe Blow. I don't want them making anyone nervous. Again this is always a work in progress with my bitch. I have to admit I am not totally relaxed with her in public under all circumstances. I maintain constant control. She lives to bite!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Do y'all consider a trained dog one that is just trained to perform very specific tasks such as bite work. One that has enough obedience to get through a BH by the skin of their teeth but can't be left in the house unsupervised? What does the word trained mean today? I know the motivational answer to things, like countersurfing ,that make a dog fun to have in the house is not to put anything on the counter. The answer to not getting in the garbage is to not keep the garbage where they can get at it. Does the removal of items from the counter, the gabage being inaccessible make a trained dog in you mind? Just what is considered a trained dog these days. I am curious because it seems to be a trained dog is one that can perform a specific task but has nothing to do with the dog being taught how to act outside of the venue it is trained for.


well i spose im pretty simple then...a trained dog is a dog that knows its place! removing things from a dog so it wont get to it HELLLLL NO...thats removing the problem, try facing it and dealing with it instead..unacceptable behaviour is not tolerated in any shape form or manner. a dog that doesnt walk after you every step you take whining for attention...a dog that doesnt loose its friggin mind when the doorbell rings...a dog where you dont have to constantly say SIT, NO, BAD, GO AWAY and more of those lovely things...thats what i call a trained dog...a dog that feels comfortable in its surroundings and doesnt feel the constant need to verify its position in the house or outside of it. god i can see it now lol...my dog taking a nose into the garbagecan will only result to him going in there completly...you wanna see inside ? be my guest pup...take a good long damn look at it then....

but thats just me....


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have titles. Does that make my dog trained?

When my coworkers ask me what my plans for the weekend are and I tell them dog training, not only do I get a 'why would you waste a whole weekend day on that' look, but I sometimes get the 'isn't he trained yet?' follow up. 

Does he have sharper and more reliable obedience than my best friend's blonde dogs? Yup. Does he still try to eat her sheep, which her dogs don't? Yup. Does that mean he's not trained, or just that he has significantly higher prey drive? I think the latter, my friend thinks he's a bad dog.

My labx has almost no formal training, but is a pretty easy going low maintenance dog. My Mal has lots of training but is a high drive spaz, though he can be very, very good at times. The DS is somewhere in between, both in personality and training, which means she can be very sweet sometimes and a little hooligan at other times.

All of them are easy to live with and quiet in the house, so I think they're trained. Sort of. 8)


So really, I have no answer to the question.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I never mentioned crates Jennifer and would appreciate it if you didn't turn it into another discussion about crates. I want to know what people actually see as a trained dog. My dogs are not what I would consider well trained at all. They do what they do, load up hunt and what have you, but the ones that come in the house have manners. This seems to be falling by the wayside. It is important to Lee, but seems to be far less important to many. The important part seems to be getting them on the field for trainng. I am asking because there are trainers here and many of their dogs can't be left unsupervised. I realise that whenj you do a soecific job all doy with other peoples cars, plumbing or what ever, you don't really want to come home and do it with your own. Maybe it is the same with dogs.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I think the question is; how do you define trained. For a pet owner, it may be nothing more than house trained. For a PSD, there is a set list of behaviors and a standard to which the dogs are able to perform. In sport it would be to the standard for whatever degree or level or whatever it may be called. 

DFrost


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don,

You train what you care about. Mine are house dogs and I haven't cared enough to set up a counter surfer or trash can hunter yet. I don't leave stuff on counters or trash cans they have access too. It isn't motivational--just not worth the time to set up and deal with. I have to much other stuff I care about to set up and train. 


Terrasita


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I think a dog can be well trained in many areas, but still not have the type of behaviors that others would call trained. House training is one type of training, but there are several other types of course.
I need my dogs to be able to jump and climb on anything on their own free will, without me telling them it is OK, and without them having any reservation in their minds. Anytime I buy a green dog that was raised in a home environment I have to spend too much time teaching him that it is OK to jump and climb on tables, counters, appliances, etc.
Some of the best drug dogs I have seen have had ZERO obedience (other than a solid SIT at odor source)
I have had many IPO, FR, KNPV, SchH dogs in my kennel that were out of countrol outside of their sport routines. 
The first dog that I titled in SchH had beautiful obedience on the field, but would not come back to me when i called his name off the field. (he was not really well trained at all, but he did great on the field)
My dads dog (now 15 years old) will do anything he tells the dog to do, but at the same time he really does not do anything (if that makes any sense) I would say he is a well trained dog, but he cant find drugs or bombs, he cant track, he doesn't bite, he does not hunt, etc.


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## John Campbell (Jul 25, 2010)

I think you would be hard pressed to come up with a more subjective question for posting on this board. A dog is a shitter if........? maybe.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

John Campbell said:


> I think you would be hard pressed to come up with a more subjective question for posting on this board. A dog is a shitter if........? maybe.


LOL, ............if he does not retrieve metal.\\/:razz:


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

They're different things to me, training and manners. Training is more like a behavior I teach a dog to do on command. Manners is just the way the dog IS without me telling him what to do, except maybe a reminder to behave and be nice. 

What I consider "trained" is pretty specific to what I'm training, when the dog does what I command 9 times out of 10 perfectly, and the 1 time a little less than perfect. None of my dogs are ever going to be trained, there's always work in progress


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Over the years I've seen MANY high level competition dogs that weren't trained in my book but I guess that all depends on what goals you have with your dogs. 
I've had many dogs that couldn't do a formal heel if their life depended on it because it wasn't part of what I wanted/needed with those particular dogs. They all stayed with me when I gave the command. How close and perfect depended on what I wanted form that particular dog.
You can bet your last dollar that they came EVERYTIME I called and were completly under control without a collar and leash on. 
They were trained dogs as per what I wanted with THOSE dogs. 
I've never raised a dog from a pup that didn't have a great recall/come/here, whatever command. How formal it became was, again, dependent on what I wanted from that dog but none refused when I called them. 
I have never been able to comprehend a dog, that I raised, NOT coming when I call.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Do y'all consider a trained dog one that is just trained to perform very specific tasks such as bite work. One that has enough obedience to get through a BH by the skin of their teeth but can't be left in the house unsupervised? What does the word trained mean today? I know the motivational answer to things, like countersurfing ,that make a dog fun to have in the house is not to put anything on the counter. The answer to not getting in the garbage is to not keep the garbage where they can get at it. Does the removal of items from the counter, the gabage being inaccessible make a trained dog in you mind? Just what is considered a trained dog these days. I am curious because it seems to be a trained dog is one that can perform a specific task but has nothing to do with the dog being taught how to act outside of the venue it is trained for.


I think you are talking about 2 different things . OB , bitework is training . Clearing off the counter to aviod countersurfing and keeping the garbage inaccessible is not traing but simply managing .

As to crating , getting a dog to feel comfortable and be quiet in a crate may take some training . Putting a dog in a crate so it won't get into things is managing .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

With my current dog (10 yr old GSD) I train him for some things and manage others . 

Before my divorce he stayed outside in a kennel during the day and I brought him inside at night because he kept the neighbors awake , managing. I chose not to train him to live in the house because 

#1 I got him at 2 years old as a PSD and he wasn't housebroken and I wasn't about to f up my house housebreaking an adult dog . 

#2 He's a mean old prick and I wasn't about to find out if my training was good enough pertaining to socializing because the result of failure could have been one of my 3 young kids getting bitten . 

#3 He's a mean old prick and a hyper PITA on top of that . 

and last but not least 

#4 My dog , my situation and MY CHOICE .

So with this dog I felt management around the house was the best option . I've had numerous other dogs , including a previous PSD , that I choose to train to live in the house and all did well . Different dogs and different situations at those times too . 

I also do alot of training with this dog and most who know me think I do a pretty good job at it with him . But most of my training with him pertains to his job as a PSD . 

Sometimes training is the best option and sometimes management is . All depends on the situation .


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I have often thought that a dog not having manners in the house is a lack of respect for the owner.

I have had dogs who would piss or act up in at another person's house but respect my house and belongings. My wife has brought home some dogs that I would have to house train or teach manners. When they are pups, that is a different story. 

Dogs are smarter than people give them credit. I look at garbage digging, counter surfing, chewing things, and using the restroom in the house as a respect problem. 

I have not beaten any dogs but the dogs know what is acceptable in my house.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I worked just as hard at training OB, bitework and to be a companion if that makes any sense. I believe it does take some training and discipline to be a companion that I can relax around. 

If I have a well mannered dog I can give the dog more unrestricted freedom.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I agree about having to work on some house manners. I think a lot of people do not know how to train house manners. 

I live around my dogs. I like to make my life easy.

Mike brings up a good point about his father's dog. His dad trained his dog to behave. My grandparents had dogs around. My grandfather was not a dog trainer per se but his dogs behaved. They would fetch and do what he asked them, so he may have been a natural dog trainer. 

It seems like a lot of excuses to me for people not able to train their dogs to behave. 

You can teach a young pup to do most OB in less than a couple of days. It takes a little more work to teach manners.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I think the question is; how do you define trained. For a pet owner, it may be nothing more than house trained. For a PSD, there is a set list of behaviors and a standard to which the dogs are able to perform. In sport it would be to the standard for whatever degree or level or whatever it may be called.
> 
> DFrost


I agree with David. A trained dog depends upon what your expectations are for that dog. For many of us who strictly use or dogs for working. They live outside in a kennel and we don't care if they have house manners. A trained dog is one who satisfactory performs the task they have been trained to perform. For me, that's Schutzhund. For a pet owner, that may be siting quietly on a dog bed when company comes over. 

The one thing that people must realize when it comes to training is that you can only expect a dog to perform what you have proficiently taught him to do. So, if you want house manners you have to teach them.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Over the years I've seen MANY high level competition dogs that weren't trained in my book but I guess that all depends on what goals you have with your dogs.
> I've had many dogs that couldn't do a formal heel if their life depended on it because it wasn't part of what I wanted/needed with those particular dogs. They all stayed with me when I gave the command. How close and perfect depended on what I wanted form that particular dog.
> You can bet your last dollar that they came EVERYTIME I called and were completly under control without a collar and leash on.
> They were trained dogs as per what I wanted with THOSE dogs.
> ...


 
Bob,

I have found that often you a dog is trained by someone else, they have learned to perform for that person. So when someone new comes on the scene, it takes time for that person to build up a relationship so that they dog will perform for the new person. A lot of guys at my Sch club do a lot of handling of trained dogs from Germany and they have to often retrain the dog to follow their commands and do things the way they like it.

I've been told that it's easier than a green dog because they already have a foundation but sometimes old habits are hard to break.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I think you are too wrapped up in the great crate debate and so on Don, should we discuss it in yet another thread!?
> 
> Obviously it depends on who's standards. Your standards of obedience would not be enough for me for example, but it is good enough for you because your dogs hunt well, load up in the truck and can come inside occasionally without getting on your counters. I am cool with that if you are...do you consider them trained?


I totally agree with that. For you when your dog performs what he is expected to do that's trained. Family pet people and working dog people have a different perspective on what is trained.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jack Roberts said:


> I have often thought that a dog not having manners in the house is a lack of respect for the owner.
> 
> I have had dogs who would piss or act up in at another person's house but respect my house and belongings. My wife has brought home some dogs that I would have to house train or teach manners. When they are pups, that is a different story.
> 
> ...


I disagree. I can't stand the "respect" term but it is just semantics so I can live with it I suppose. A dog 'respects" you and so respects your house? I think a dog that acts up in someone elses house has not generalized your house manners to include other peoples houses, or houses with stranged dog smells or so on. This dog would not be house trained in my mind. An indoor dog should be able to go into an indoor space and not mess stuff up, your house or not.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Jennifer,

Why do dogs behave different for other people? Some people who train dogs only have to look at the dog to make a dog mind. We could call them good readers of dog behavior but I think there is a leadership phenomenon that goes on between dogs and people. Dogs seem to look for leadership or assume the leadership for themselves. 

Respect is a term that seems to fit for me. There is a reason why some people have problems with their animals. I think it is the same thing with horses. A horse knows about the rider when you get on them. The same horse may act up with one rider and behave for another.

I am not so sure that I agree about the whole wolf dominance thing but do believe that dogs and animals search for their place in situations.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

In reponse to the title of the thread, I would have to say in who's eyes? The owner, the fellow civilian or another dog person/handler/trainer?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jack Roberts said:


> Jennifer,
> 
> Why do dogs behave different for other people? Some people who train dogs only have to look at the dog to make a dog mind. We could call them good readers of dog behavior but I think there is a leadership phenomenon that goes on between dogs and people. Dogs seem to look for leadership or assume the leadership for themselves.
> 
> ...


Like I said, it is really just semantics, words. I conceed that a dog needs some kind of leadership, and some people command "respect" in a way that others could only dream about for sure.

To stay specific to your example, the point I was trying to make was that a dog that pisses in a hotel room but not in my house has not a lot to do with respect IMHO, it has more to do with training. Does a dog just magiacally loose respect for a person outside of their own house?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>>I am asking because there are trainers here and many of their dogs can't be left unsupervised.


I do consider my dogs trained VERY well , but I do not leave them unsupervised,.when i am not at home, they all are loose when i am sleeping and SOMETIMES if i want to go to the corner store, but mainly if i am leaving the house they ARE crated, not because i belive they will do something to the house but rater something to each other, I have 9 dogs 3 are pit bulls , I have varying degree of dog aggressive dogs in my family and i would not risk them deciding when i am not here to kill each other, its a stupid move and i do not think they are not trained because of it, when i am around they will NOT fight, as i am in charge and they understand this, when i am not at home, they are dogs first, and there is nobody to say they are not allowed to fight, 
so i dont chance it, i DO have dogs paired up when i leave, the dobe and mastiff are loose together , my 2 schips are loose together in the living room, and so on, but the pits and the pup are all seperated as well as my husky who everyone would like to kill here,,

does this make them not trained?
they all come to work with me at classes and pet store without issues ever, 
they have various ob . agility , flyball , CGN, TT tests and so on, I can take any of them anywhere without incident , as well as ALLL of them together most places without incident, 
my 6 month old malinois sleeps loose now for the past 2 weeks and has not touched a THING during these times, 
i think that my dogs are trained....


PS i DO have a food stealer schipperke I got at 5 yrs old, she will steal any food any chance she gets, I have not been able to break her of this habit, she is now 13yrs old, 
she will not do it in front of me but when i am not looking she will 
she finds stealing more rewarding then death, belive me , I have corrected this dog to the fullest, 
e- collar , leash corrections, physical corrections, and tough ones , used mouse traps , hot sauce , you name it , i have done it, i have given up , she will DEFFINALTY take death as a choice, to continue stealing, so this past yr , i have given up , and i just move stuff out of her way , 
I have no idea how to fix this problem, its too reivforcing to her and she had done it sucessfully for yrs prior to me getting her. none of my other dogs do this


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Jones said:


> Bob,
> 
> I have found that often you a dog is trained by someone else, they have learned to perform for that person. So when someone new comes on the scene, it takes time for that person to build up a relationship so that they dog will perform for the new person. A lot of guys at my Sch club do a lot of handling of trained dogs from Germany and they have to often retrain the dog to follow their commands and do things the way they like it.
> 
> I've been told that it's easier than a green dog because they already have a foundation but sometimes old habits are hard to break.



Mike I agree with that statement about some dogs being trained by others. Tha'ts a necessity in many cases and a choice for others but I've never done it and don't have the need. Again, just my choice. 
As for building relationships a perfect example would be Thunder and my son.
When he was still at home he had his own hours (24 yrs old when he left). 
He used to complain that Thunder wouldn't let him come through the back yard at 3-4 in the morning. I told him to spend a little time and just play with the dog when he was home. He said he didn't think he needed to. He lived in the house and should be a part of Thunder's "pack". 
My comment was that if he was, it was down very low on the pack order since he had little interaction with Thunder.
He started playing fetch and it didn't take a week or so before he had no problems at all coming in the yard....when the average 20+, single male sees fit to come home. ](*,):lol:


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