# Thinking about the long down..



## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

This starts with walking my pup around distractions. re: the thread regarding rude pet owners and their unruly dogs.

I always encounter them so I've been carrying a ball with my 5 month old pup and as soon as he sees an approaching dog or person, (or any distraction for that matter) I produce the ball, he's happy, ignores the snarly dog and we go on our way. ok.

Well, being the noob that I am I remember my first working dog having such a hard time with the long down so I'd like to transfer this mind-set to the down with my puppy. Right now he sees oncoming dogs and people as a positive because he might get a reward. He actually saw someone today and came into heel position. 
I can do the same thing with the down right? He has food drive so if I reward for staying down with a distraction he'll see them as a positive not "oh crap"....


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Lori, me thinks your first dog having a hard time with the long down was really the trainer/training error. The dogs are rarely at fault.

You start the long down without distractions, very gradually adding distance and time (not both at the same time), then distractions. It's a long process, but if you rush it, you will create problems.



Lori Gallo said:


> This starts with walking my pup around distractions. re: the thread regarding rude pet owners and their unruly dogs.
> 
> I always encounter them so I've been carrying a ball with my 5 month old pup and as soon as he sees an approaching dog or person, (or any distraction for that matter) I produce the ball, he's happy, ignores the snarly dog and we go on our way. ok.
> 
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not sure i'm reading this correctly ... you're not gonna start teaching a long down to a puppy are you ? ..PLENTY of other behaviors to work on til their attention span builds up ... i suggest doing active drills to build focus not passive ones


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

Yup, first dogs issue with the long down was ME...
And no, Rick, I'm not going to be working on the long down. I was just thinking out loud about it. 

I don't think I explained myself very well..

It seems to me that when I start training the down, that distractions can be a positive in the dogs mind. Sort of like my puppy on the walks "Oh boy, here comes a crazy dog....let me look at ma and get a reward.." So with the down: When a distraction appears I can use a food reward and the dog will see the distraction as a good thing....Dog stays in place gets rewarded and learns that distractions during a down are a good thing.

Just tryin to figure it all out guys.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

In training a pup w/food on the down stay, I use a flat hand signal placing the food between the feet ( optimum spot) reinforcing blieb/stay again at the moment he takes the food. Repeating it over & over lengthening the time until he learns if he stays the food comes to him (not from the hand or focus changes to hand) Change distance, position (you) & move around reading dog not allowing him to get up. JMHO


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lori, 

I think your on to something. This how I teach distractions. I have the distraction far away, so it's outside the dogs excitement/stress threshhold. the m inute my dog looks at it. I ask for watch (of course this has to be solid). when my dog complies I reward. Soon my dog will see a distraction and offer an automatic watch...reward. Then there is proofing it. But this requires some consistency in all parts of training As I do not want to correct here....the down being such a specific locatin on the field I do not want to make the "spot" associated with a correction. So, my no reward marker has to be solid by now.


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

James Downey said:


> Lori,
> 
> I think your on to something. This how I teach distractions. I have the distraction far away, so it's outside the dogs excitement/stress threshhold. the m inute my dog looks at it. I ask for watch (of course this has to be solid). when my dog complies I reward. Soon my dog will see a distraction and offer an automatic watch...reward. Then there is proofing it. But this requires some consistency in all parts of training As I do not want to correct here....the down being such a specific locatin on the field I do not want to make the "spot" associated with a correction. So, my no reward marker has to be solid by now.


This is what I was trying to say..


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I felt ya.

Patricia McConnell uses a similar strategy for leash aggressive dogs...it's in a book called fiesty fido.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

"I always encounter them so I've been carrying a ball with my 5 month old pup and as soon as he sees an approaching dog or person, (or any distraction for that matter) I produce the ball, he's happy, ignores the snarly dog and we go on our way. ok."

I regret that I do not "get" this.

I f my pup reacts like this, he gets a correction. The idea of rewarding the pup for ignoring unwanted behaviour is in my mind nearly useless.

Occasionally it may help, but the pup / young dog has to know first of all that I am not going to tolerate such behaviour. When I have my pup / dog on the line he has to obey me, whether he is walking to heel or just loosely by my side. Whatever the distraction, he has to obey *ME*, i.e. no pulling on the lead, no barking at other 2 or 4-legged creatures.

It doesn't matter what disturbs or motivates him - he's under my jurisdiction.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

altho the first part is a bit vague :
re: "I always encounter them so I've been carrying a ball with my 5 month old pup and as soon as he sees an approaching dog or person, (or any distraction for that matter) I produce the ball, he's happy, ignores the snarly dog and we go on our way. ok."


but this comment is a perfect example of "correcting to compliance" which equals pure compulsion :
re: "I regret that I do not "get" this. I f my pup reacts like this, he gets a correction. The idea of rewarding the pup for ignoring unwanted behaviour is in my mind nearly useless."

whatever floats your boat and works for you ....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You are right, it is compulsion but compulsion need not be brutal!!

I need a pup / dog who respects the lead that I am holding in my hand.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> altho the first part is a bit vague :
> re: "I always encounter them so I've been carrying a ball with my 5 month old pup and as soon as he sees an approaching dog or person, (or any distraction for that matter) I produce the ball, he's happy, ignores the snarly dog and we go on our way. ok."
> 
> 
> ...


 
And whatever floats your boat lol


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

"I f my pup reacts like this, he gets a correction. The idea of rewarding the pup for ignoring unwanted behaviour is in my mind nearly useless."

I didn't actually say in my post how he acts...He doesn't do "anything" that deserves a correction. I'm just out on my street walking around, he looks up, sees a dog approaching and I reward for looking to me for leadership. I could correct him for looking at the other dog but please tell me why I should again?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, may have got the wrong handle!! I thought you had a problem with your dog reacting to other dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What would interest me is, what happens if your dog does react negatively to dogs snarling at him?

He hasn't learnt this lesson yet.

It's only a question. What if you let him react as he wants to, without reward for ignoring them (if he really is ignoring them and not just letching for the reward) and see how he reacts. This way if he doesn't react, ok, if he does, correction?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Gillian, has to correct a dog. It's almost an obsession in her.


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

letching?? What's "letching" Don't use that word in my neck of the woods Gillian!
But I know what you mean...I guess I don't want to set him up to fail if I don't have to. He's pretty much on his way to being dog-neutral and I'd like to keep it that way.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

fwiw, i set dogs up to fail all the time ... i call it proofing


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I believe the OP thought she was having great success with distracting the dog from another, thus wanted to incorporate that into the long down.

Now we have two discussions in one post. The method the OP used to distract her dog from others and the long down.

I believe it's good to use the distraction method when encountering another dog to teach the desired behavior. However you must also proof your dog without the toy as you will not always have a toy with you. So after the dog has learned what you want when seeing another dog, it's time to move on to proofing the dog without the toy, i.e. corrections if unwanted behavior presents. It can be a gradule reduction in the play, from full on to just giving the toy to the dog, to letting him see the toy, etc. Even waiting longer in presenting the toy and stopping play sooner. It can work, but you really should at some point go without the toy.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i agree completely with Edward and of course if you have truly taught your dog to LOOK at you when you give that command, they CANNOT fixate on another dog 

- another command that everyone says they "have" but often have never proofed it well enuff for it to be worth a damn when they NEED it


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

"I believe the OP thought she was having great success with distracting the dog from another, thus wanted to incorporate that into the long down.

Now we have two discussions in one post. The method the OP used to distract her dog from others and the long down.

I believe it's good to use the distraction method when encountering another dog to teach the desired behavior. However you must also proof your dog without the toy as you will not always have a toy with you. So after the dog has learned what you want when seeing another dog, it's time to move on to proofing the dog without the toy, i.e. corrections if unwanted behavior presents. It can be a gradule reduction in the play, from full on to just giving the toy to the dog, to letting him see the toy, etc. Even waiting longer in presenting the toy and stopping play sooner. It can work, but you really should at some point go without the toy."

Well put...I think you're right, I will have to proof and use corrections but my original thought was that this "method" would work in teaching a long down thus making the distraction an opportunity for a positive reinforcer for the dog. That way the position of the long down won't be a place for corrections and thus a happy down....hopefully
___


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Lori
awhile "back" in this thread i thought you agreed at five months a long down may be the least of your worries and a low priority
.... but you still seem intent on how to teach it if you keep referring to it imo 

regardless, teach one behavior and get it solid WITHOUT distractions first, and stop worrying about when to distract redirect correct and proof...i can't imagine any need for a correction to a five month old pup, but that's just me and maybe this is an exceptional serious pup 

but i still feel strongly you do NOT want to work extending much if any duration on downs with a five month pup unless it is a REAL fast learner and very solid pup
- how about restrained recalls ?
- how about fast changes of positions ?
- how about fast position changes when it's ten feet away ?
these are the kinds of fun pup drills that can use motion and movement and build focus on YOU

p.s not trying to start more threads ... just trying to help you focus on appropriate stuff for pups


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

rick smith said:


> Lori
> awhile "back" in this thread i thought you agreed at five months a long down may be the least of your worries and a low priority
> .... but you still seem intent on how to teach it if you keep referring to it imo
> 
> ...


Rick, I'm with ya. I started this thread because I was sort of "thinking out loud" in anticipation of the long down, that's all. It's a way down the road and in the meantime I'm working on puppy stuff.

Oh, and yes I'm intent on how to teach it Rick, it's the reason I started the thread..](*,)


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

I hope Im not too far off base here

and 5 months is pretty early. BUT

when I was in Germany and a member of the Wurzburg SHTZ club they taught the long down this way.

There were about 5 or 6 metal rings screwed into the ground Kind of like the dog tie out stakes that corkscrew into the ground.

Anyway, you would do whatever exercises you normally did but when it can time to do the long down you would go to one of the rings and down the dog. That ring would have a long leash or rope or whatever run through it. You clipped this to the collar ( the long tie was pre positioned) . On the other end of the tieout/rope way off to one side and out of the dogs view ( maybe 40-50 feet) was a helper/trainer. You put your dog on down/stay and walked away little at a time and then after a while came back eventually you would place the dog on down and walk out of sight.
If the dog broke the unseen helper ( unseen by the dog) would correct by using the long line attached to the collar that ran through the ring. This would make sure the dog stayed exactly where he was placed, the correcting did not come from you. The theory behind this is the dog found out that even if no one was around he was to stay where he had been put or he got corrected. The dog could see the correction did not come from the handler or anyone holding a leash it just came from nowhere. 
I saw this work really well. Never was hard of the dog never took more than a few times.
My dogs you could place down and walk off for half hour or so come back and the dog would not have moved

It just seemed to work real well and real fast. This is clearly not the only way but it is the way they were doing in about 20 years ago in the club I was a member in. The trainer there was the head trainer for the German Polizei


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Gillian, has to correct a dog. It's almost an obsession in her.


James, old boy, when I'm "talking" to the cheese, I'd prefer it if the maggots didn't join in.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I've personally used this method, works very well and doesn't caus any conflict or baggage.



Jon Harris said:


> I hope Im not too far off base here
> 
> and 5 months is pretty early. BUT
> 
> ...


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Teach everything else first. By that time no means no. Rest means rest and the dog is used to being left alone and can be corrected verbably if need be.

At five months you should be centering your thoughts elsewhere. Not on the long down.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> ... I believe it's good to use the distraction method when encountering another dog to teach the desired behavior. However you must also proof your dog without the toy as you will not always have a toy with you. ...





rick smith said:


> .... and of course if you have truly taught your dog to LOOK at you when you give that command, they CANNOT fixate on another dog
> 
> - another command that everyone says they "have" but often have never proofed it well enuff for it to be worth a damn when they NEED it



I couldn't agree more. I've done a fair amount of work desensitizing dog-reactive dogs, and focus work (for me) is a huge chunk of it.


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

Randy Allen said:


> Teach everything else first. By that time no means no. Rest means rest and the dog is used to being left alone and can be corrected verbably if need be.
> 
> At five months you should be centering your thoughts elsewhere. Not on the long down.


Teaching everything else first is actually what I'm doing...The title of my post was "Thinking about....the long down"

I'm basically thinking out loud here...when the time comes I want to have a better understanding of what I'm doing..


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

It shouldn't be a worry or get you distracted from the task at hand Lori.
By the time you get to wanting or needing a long down the dog will already know more then a few bits and pieces for what he'll need for the exercise. If the foundation work is done well, he'll have no issues learning it easily enough.


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