# Refocusing after reward



## Amanda Jones (Mar 6, 2013)

I have a 1yr old Fox Red Lab that I am training for scent detection. He is doing well with everything so far but I am having trouble getting him to refocus after his reward is given. I'm attempting to do 10 reps in a short time. He indicates, I reward with a tug or ball, take the reward back and he spends at least a minute trying to get into my back pocket. After we overcome that, he sits at every can or cubby that I want him to search, thinking he will be rewarded. He doesn't sit like this initially, only after a reward has been given. 

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to refocus him to avoid this issue?


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Amanda Jones said:


> I have a 1yr old Fox Red Lab that I am training for scent detection. He is doing well with everything so far but I am having trouble getting him to refocus after his reward is given. I'm attempting to do 10 reps in a short time. He indicates, I reward with a tug or ball, take the reward back and he spends at least a minute trying to get into my back pocket. After we overcome that, he sits at every can or cubby that I want him to search, thinking he will be rewarded. He doesn't sit like this initially, only after a reward has been given.
> 
> Does anyone have a suggestion on how to refocus him to avoid this issue?


It sounds like he doesn't understand the game. When you play tug I assume you tell him "out" and he lets go? At that point can you move the tug all around his face and not have him bite it? If not than he doesn't understand the game, or is choosing not to follow the rules. One of presas knows the game very well, I can bonk him with the tug and try to put it in his mouth and he won't take it until I say "break" then he tugs like crazy. 

It sounds like he's offering you behaviors he thinks will get him the reward. Perhaps use a lower value reward while he is still learning the exercise, and what gets rewarded and what doesn't? That same presa I mentioned goes crazy for a tug, so I can't teach him anything with it. I have to use food to bring his energy level down a bit so he can think. Then once he is clear on what I want I can bring the tug back to amp him up about the exercise he just learned. (I do this after a few weeks of a new exercise, not in the same session. He'll reject food if he thinks a tug is an option for reward.)


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Just out of curiosity, how did you come up with requirement of 10 reps? Not dissing you or anything but trying to understand the thought process of why that quantity of reps and not some other number?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

O.k. Here's my take on it. The dog is doing the work for a paycheck. That paycheck is a chance to play with his ball or the tug. You don't indicate how much time you let him have the prize but normally with fast reps I'm thinking minimal because you are trying to quickly move to the next rep. By doing fast short reps, he's getting a taste of the reward but not really being rewarded for the work he's done. Like any good worker once he's earned the prize he wants some time to enjoy it. Hence, the argument at the end and the offered behaviors trying to get back that which he earned but snatched away. 

How about using food during the reps and ending with the ball or tug at the end when he will clearly have time to enjoy it? I would also vary the number of reps. Ten just seems like a big number to me when most people I see do it usually do between 3-5 before taking a break. If, when doing the rep, the dog indicates at an inappropriate area, you either move the dog along or say "no" and move the dog along. There is no reward for wrong alerts.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I am confused..

are you showing the dog everything to search? or is dog searching?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Same as Joby. I think you've moved to soon to 10 reps and I wonder if he understands what behavior results in reward. Do you mark the behavior. Also, like Joby, can you elaborate on just what the desired behavior(s) is/are?


T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

The dog hunts to find it's ball. Through training it has learned to skip a step and self reward at the pocket. 

Without seeing a video...here's what I'd do. A lot of this can be varied depending on how you started the dog. IE did you start him searching freely? or did you start him on boxes first teach an alert and then go to hunting...





According to you the dog starts (starts) fine, searches fine (middle) and finishes (end) fine on the first go round (correct me if I am wrong).

After the reward is removed from the dog, the dog then sticks to your pocket staying with the reward. this identifies the next start as the problem, so I would address the (start) as the issue. Other issues may come up, but fix this one as you have identified it. I agree with fast repetitions. You aren't trying to work on hunting or falsing, only the second and subsequent starts. IF the dog can't leave your pocket rapidly, there is no way it can false, or have crappy hunting, so fix that first.

After you remove the reward from the dog, tie the dog out on flat collar a few steps away from the next search area. Not a few steps from the hide, but the area. Use 40-50' areas alternating where the hides go. Initially, have them closer to the front of the search area. I understand you want to get reps in to fix the problem, hence 10 in a row quickly to fix this issue (which I don't disagree with, if that's your intent), but you don't want too short of an area. 

Once you tie the dog out, walk away from the dog, start tapping and acting like you are hiding the ball from the start of the area to the end of the area, hopefully the dog goes a little nuts. Actually hide the ball with the odor. Go back, take the dog off the back tie, and let the dog sniff your pocket or hunt the area. Don't do anything to encourage or discourage the pocket sniffing, be a post. If the dog leaves you and searches and rewards, do this 5-6 times in one session in different areas, if you have enough hides.


If the dog still sticks to your pocket, back up a little more in your training, and throw a loaded ball into tall grass, open boxes, dark rooms, etc. to where he'll have to leave you and hunt. I'd do all the hunting on a long line 10-15' until the dog is comfortable going out and getting the ball. Then put a ball in your pocket and do the same thing with the loaded ball. The one in the pocket is never a good time and never loaded. Don't reward, just ignore the dog. Then go to the first step I suggested, above, after the dog is leaving comfortably.

After you get 5-6 successful tap and hides in a session with no pocket sniffing, put the dog away. Next session, do two tap and hides ball with the odor, then Tap and don't hide the ball, put it in your pocket without being too obvious. Then let the dog go hunt and alert. If the dog successfully finds this one hunting, reward, then do one more tap and hide with the ball at source. You want to wean off this pretty quickly as the only reason you are doing it is to get a primary reward quickly at source, to get the dog back to hunting out in front of you, and not looking at your pocket.

Another method is to put the dog under obedience. Basically, put a sit or a down after you get the reward, to break the pocket hunting. This will initially lower the drive to hunt a little, I'd almost guarantee it. If your timing is good, though, a sit or a down will start letting the dog build drive, even under obedience as the dog will get to explode out of the down and go hunt. You can give the dog a down and even reward that. Then it becomes "down" means anticipation of reward, or another behavior is being asked and then the reward comes. Detection is obedience. "sook" means leave me and go hunt. Mixing other fun stuff in there can be a cue to a dog that a search is coming.

A second set of hands always helps with detection. IE someone to hold the line, etc.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

When you are doing detection and training a young dog, think of all the small parts it has to do to be successful. Inside corners, outside corners (vehicles), high, low, corners, stairs, etc. 

Picture a theater, or dormitories or a huge warehouse with rows of stuff to search.

In your first search think about searching 1% of the area that you will when the dog is completed. You may have 5 hides in separate but small areas. Search a wall with a hide in a room. A row of shelves 10-30'. Search 25' of wall, a corner, and another 25'. Search one small 6x6 bathroom. To you, you are doing small areas. To the dog, he is learning that everywhere he searches, he is successful. they do generalize, so if you work on door seams, corners, cabinets, etc in a small context, it will bleed over when you start doing larger areas.

As you go, start making the areas bigger and your percentage of searched area bigger than the search prior. Dogs are all different, so let them dictate how much or little they do. Change up amounts, height, depth, etc. Just change one thing at a time on a particular hide though. IE don't go from packages in the middle of the floor to a hide six feet high and three feet deep in a dark room. just take the packages into the dark room if he hasn't search that type of thing before.

If your dog can't search small areas successfully it can't search the whole building. Just like in your training problem you are finding if the dog can't leave your pocket, the dog can't search at all, other than your pocket.


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## Amanda Jones (Mar 6, 2013)

Thank you all for your great advice! I was very surprised this morning, to say the least. To answer a few of your questions in order of the above posts:

-He was raised at a working dog facility but for some reason, has NO obedience skills aside from "sit." I have had him since early March and have been trying to train his obedience and detection at the same time. So, that being said, he is still learning "out" as we go. He has the same high drive over food and toys, so I'm not really sure what would be a lower reward for him.
-I attempt to do 10 reps while working cans with him because I have made it easy in attempt to reinforce the basic "odor-sit-reward" game. He sits, I pull the tug out and play with him about 30-45 seconds before taking it back and putting him in a sit. 
-I have been showing him where to search (ie: point to first can) then backing away after he is started. 
-The goal isn't a solid 10 reps no matter what, I just don't do anymore than that. If he acts tired at 5, I will end on a positive and kennel him. His desired behavior at this point is the actively search and sit upon odor. He is having a lot of issues getting out ahead and searching on his own though.

I should also mention, this is my first "green" dog but we have two others that have been working for 3-4 years each. I am trying to take the training I do with them and "dumb it down" for him. I really do appreciate all your advice!


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Amanda Jones said:


> Thank you all for your great advice! I was very surprised this morning, to say the least. To answer a few of your questions in order of the above posts:
> 
> -He was raised at a working dog facility but for some reason, has NO obedience skills aside from "sit." I have had him since early March and have been trying to train his obedience and detection at the same time. So, that being said, he is still learning "out" as we go. He has the same high drive over food and toys, so I'm not really sure what would be a lower reward for him.
> 
> I should also mention, this is my first "green" dog but we have two others that have been working for 3-4 years each. I am trying to take the training I do with them and "dumb it down" for him. I really do appreciate all your advice!


If he values food = to toys then I would use food because it is a faster reward than a toy and you will get much more reps in. However, you can test this. Have someone hold him. Put his favorite toy on the ground on your left (while you have is attention). Then put his favorite treat on the ground to your right (also while he is watching). Let him go and see which he goes to first. Then repeat this, but reverse the sides the toy and food are on. If he goes to the same one no matter what side it’s on then you know which he values more. If he goes to the same side no matter what you put there then the test is a wash, in that case he is just going to a side preference rather than a reward preference (but if he doesn’t know heal that’s not likely).

IMO you cannot use a tug as a reward if he has not learned the game yet. He must tug well, return with it when he's allowed to win, out when he is told, and avoid taking the tug even when it's in his face until he's told he can have it. All that before it can be used as a reward. Otherwise I think it really overly complicates things because you’re not just teaching searching your teaching the tug game at the same time, and I don't want the 2 mixed in the dogs mind. I want him to understand each of those independent of each other. Like someone said you need to think of all the small things that make up what you want the dog to do and break it down and teach each of those small things.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Is it going to be a bedbug dog?





Amanda Jones said:


> Thank you all for your great advice! I was very surprised this morning, to say the least. To answer a few of your questions in order of the above posts:
> 
> -He was raised at a working dog facility but for some reason, has NO obedience skills aside from "sit." I have had him since early March and have been trying to train his obedience and detection at the same time. So, that being said, he is still learning "out" as we go. He has the same high drive over food and toys, so I'm not really sure what would be a lower reward for him.
> -I attempt to do 10 reps while working cans with him because I have made it easy in attempt to reinforce the basic "odor-sit-reward" game. He sits, I pull the tug out and play with him about 30-45 seconds before taking it back and putting him in a sit.
> ...


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Amanda Jones said:


> Thank you all for your great advice! I was very surprised this morning, to say the least. To answer a few of your questions in order of the above posts:
> 
> -He was raised at a working dog facility but for some reason, has NO obedience skills aside from "sit." I have had him since early March and have been trying to train his obedience and detection at the same time. So, that being said, he is still learning "out" as we go. He has the same high drive over food and toys, so I'm not really sure what would be a lower reward for him.
> -I attempt to do 10 reps while working cans with him because I have made it easy in attempt to reinforce the basic "odor-sit-reward" game. He sits, I pull the tug out and play with him about 30-45 seconds before taking it back and putting him in a sit.
> ...


This is just my take on what you've written. I am not sure that he did at the facility but I think, mentally, your lab is probably a little puppy in the head and a bit of a kid at heart. Searching and hunting requires a bit of focus plus learning something new can be as hard on a dog as running a marathon. I would not focusing on doing 10 reps but take each rep one at a time. I like the dog to end a training session looking forward to doing another rep. I want the dog looking forward to the next hunt (search). If the dog acts tired when you were at 5, I can pretty much guarantee that he was giving signs of 'tiredness' at 4 but (and I'm totally guilty of this) you tried to slide in one more and then you are stuck trying to salvage the situation. 

As the years have gone by, I realize that quality is better than quantity. I would rather have a couple of really good, solid indications than a bunch of sloppy ones. I would, at this stage of the game, prefer building up to 10 reps and not start there. Sometimes I do one rep, sometimes, 5, some times 8, sometimes 3. Or I break it down to a session of 3, move the cans around, do another 2, move the cans around, do another 1, and then quit.

When doing cans, I would do a food reward simply because you can give a food reward rapidly whereas a toy reward takes time. You can keep focus better instead of having to get the dog to quiet down & mentally gather itself back up to do another rep. I would wait till all done and then finish on the toy because then you can really play with the dog and let them mentally unwind. Not saying you can't do toy reward for this type of thing but I would do it much later once the foundations are laid. The foundation is that the dog understands the odor he is looking for and what to do once he finds it. 

When I start a dog, it's one sample set out in the open, not hidden, and I walk the dog up to it, when he drops his nose to sniff, I cue the alert and I reward. Once the dog understands that when he sniffs that odor, he's suppose to sit then I start hiding the sample in the block or can line-up and I back up my expectations because I might have to help him through the first couple of passes.

When I do scent line-ups like that, the dog is on-lead and we work down the line doing a standard presentation . That way if the dog starts to sit inappropriately, I can move him on, or if he goes past I just circle him around me and approach that can again. You need to be sure to have enough room between cans (5-8ft) so you have room to circle him. You can always tighten up the spacing between cans later. Also don't stop at the target can or draw undo interest to it. If he misses, I circle and present again. Later you can do this off-lead.

Also I would not put him back into a sit after you take the toy. The sit is for odor indication. He sits correctly, he gets rewarded, you take back the toy, and then (without making him sit) calm and focus him back to working. This could be done through just having him stand quietly, teaching him a "wait", or just simply holding him by the collar a moment and then starting the line-up again. But I would do this after he is proficient with his alert and understands the game.

you can also change it up from cans to along a fence line, a vehicle line, or along a wall, anything where you can work it in a semi straight line. If using a room you can work the perimeter and then the contents in order across the room. There are many ways to do scent line-up work.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Your dog goes to your pocket after doing the first search well, according to you. First search good. How do you repeat this already GOOD step.

Work on the dog doing the second start and all will be well. Does this one thing make sense? 

You can go down the road of hocus pocus, or you can identify and solve the problem. Anything that is not solving the problem is just detritus on the slope of life causing your feet to move slower while getting to the top. You may learn to walk faster on a slippery slope, but that isn't the goal here.


Your goal of ten in a row is better than long searches. Do it to the dogs ability of course. Searching isn't what you are trying to solve, here. Working on starts with good training momentum is what you want to work on here. Lots of reps is what you need.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Let me add to this. If the dog is doing the searches well out of the crate, put the dog back in the crate after the first search. Leave it 5 min. do you second hide. Rinse and repeat. Lower the time of your crate time as you go. This will work similar to doing a down in between hides, with something that the dog already does well. IE whatever you do before the first hide, do it before the second hide.



Dave Colborn said:


> Your dog goes to your pocket after doing the first search well, according to you. First search good. How do you repeat this already GOOD step.
> 
> Work on the dog doing the second start and all will be well. Does this one thing make sense?
> 
> ...


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## Amanda Jones (Mar 6, 2013)

If I use food as a reward, won't that change him to being a food reward vs toy? My girls are both food reward and I do not want another one that is, I definitely want him toy reward.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Amanda Jones said:


> If I use food as a reward, won't that change him to being a food reward vs toy? My girls are both food reward and I do not want another one that is, I definitely want him toy reward.


Amanda. don't change his reward. he obviously likes it. you are doing a bad job of manipulating it. that's all.


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## Amanda Jones (Mar 6, 2013)

Sorry for the short comment, I didn't realize there were more responses. 
I definitely agree that the "start" is what we need to concentrate on. He comes out of his crate in my office, walks to the big room about 10 feet away, and starts his search. I tried the tap training you posted yesterday and he started catching on but wasn't nearly as thrilled about his self reward as when it is given to him. I think he is thriving off the interaction more than the object. I plan to try the loaded ball in grass today before working his cans to see if that will focus him on his task. The crate thing may be helpful as well.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Amanda Jones said:


> If I use food as a reward, won't that change him to being a food reward vs toy? My girls are both food reward and I do not want another one that is, I definitely want him toy reward.


Negative, you can't change what a dog values most. If your dog values a toy more he will always value a toy more. However, it's pretty common for dogs to value food more when they are puppies and to start to value the toy more as they get older. 

If you have 2 dogs that value food more right now that's not due to anything you did, that's just what drives them and it would be that way no matter what. ME does 2 good dvds on food and toy reward and discusses all this in greater detail. 

I give my toy driven dog food rewards now for new things he's learning. There is no way I could turn that dog off a tug, lol.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Is the dog refusing another "find it" command when it's doing this?
Also, was the dog trained with the reward in sight? I was told my dog had to much drive to concentrate if the reward was in sight. I proved them wrong simply by giving him a search command while having the kong on a rope in his view. 
It took a few tries but once he learned the only way to get it was to indicate on the scent article he actually started indicating stronger. 
It's similar to teaching a dog to heel with eye contact while the tug, etc is being held of to the left of the dog or over it's head.


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## scott zimmerman (Dec 7, 2009)

Without knowing exactly which method you are using, I think you are moving too fast (ie. progressing steps to fast). Remember successive approximation (break the steps down to small ones and don't progress to the next step until _the dog_ is ready, not you). As for the knipping at your pocket- develop a ritual for the dog before you start each search. If the dog knows how to sit, then each time you start your search, put the dog in a sit. Once he is rewarded for sitting on the correct odor and you get the reward back, put him back into the sit before starting again. Eventually, that sit becomes part of the ritual that will indicate to the dog the game is about to start again. As for the number of reps, don't let a certain number be concrete. Let the dog dictate that and try to end on a good note.


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## Amanda Jones (Mar 6, 2013)

It seems like some of your responses are things that I know... but didn't want to listen to myself 
It is difficult to take things slow enough for the dog when you need the dog to be ready in a certain time frame- but that's just the way it is. We have restarted basic training but we aren't doing much past that until he has solid obedience. I am going to do e-collar training with him for his obedience though I don't know that it has a place with scent work. When we take our girls to search a location I have been allowing him to go in and search a small area for a hide (with low expectations) to build up his desensitization to different distractions. He seems to want to search in these different places much more than at the office. I took him in a theater that hadn't been cleared by the girls yet and he actually indicated on a spot that wasn't a hide. It was verified as correct and he had his first field alert


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## Amanda Jones (Mar 6, 2013)

Oh, and throwing the loaded ball in high grass while holding another ball has almost completely fixed his jumping for the reward instead of focusing. We have also started doing a "sit/hold" before searching and this cue is helping a lot.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Amanda Jones said:


> I am going to do e-collar training with him for his obedience though I don't know that it has a place with scent work.


I agree with you because I"ve done corrections that I was understanding for OB issues but the dog being in odor took it as a correction on the scent work. Caused me all sorts of later issues. Not saying to don't use one but it needs to be crystal clear to the dog what its being used for.


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