# Pups



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I would just like to clarify my opinion on pups, mainly GSD, but also Malinos.

I have only owned GSDs apart from other breeds (Landseer, Fila Brasileiro, Berger de Brie).

I always find an outlet for my pup, even if it (and I) don't make it to the big stakes. I enjoy training and if the training leads me to greater heights, then I am very happy.

I keep my pups and so far have had medioce to very good results with them nationally. Obviously, an international result would have filled me with joy but this wasn't to be. Running our own business, teaching, etc. stood in the way but, maybe if I had had the chance at International Trials, I could have got around this.

I know that handlers who are at the top of their dog sport career tend to return their pups to the breeder. This is not always the fault of the pup but also the "inter-communication" pup-handler. Believe me, I have firsthand knowledge of this. The pup goes to another handler, bingo, it works.Not always, but the pup finds a good family home.

What I cannot agree to is that one goes into this "business" with the feeling " if it doesn't work" we'll send it back.

I have never returned a pup - I had much fun with our Fila Brasileiro "Gaucho". Just working him to adjust to the environment and the persons in it was a great satisfaction. He even trialled (not too successfully) but his quartering and tracking qualities were phenomenal.

There is much satisfaction in trialling and even winning but there is also much satisfaction in training a so-called "Monster dog" to behave perfectly when faced with the public. Not only that, to witness that he actually liked his Swiss citizens!

There is so much more than trialling although this has always been my aim and always will be.


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## Kimberly Grimm (Aug 23, 2013)

I am not the type of person to rehome a dog. I've made a commitment to that dog by bringing it home. As the bumper sticker says, "We are not disposable - please love me my whole life." 

In the case of Ivan, he doesn't have what it takes to be a SAR dog. Right now we are pursing coursing titles. We've taken several agility classes, which he loved, so with a little work we'll pursue that also.

However, I want to be a K9 handler for a SAR team. I'm getting a second dog specifically for that purpose. I'm putting forth a lot of time and money to make it happen. If it doesn't work out, I can't afford a third dog. 

Now after living with and training with the dog, I'll be keeping it regardless of how it works out. But where does that leave me with SAR? Yes, I can still volunteer and help others train, but it isn't the same as handling your own dog. I hope that's a bridge I never see. . . at least not before my winning lotto ticket. :wink:

Although I don't think I would ever rehome a dog for not meeting my expectations (never say never, right?), I can understand why someone would do it. I just hope they take it seriously and do it responsibly.

ETA: I'm not familiar with bite sports, so I don't know how prevalent rehoming a dog is or isn't. If we're talking a revolving door, I might be suspicious that the dogs aren't the only problem.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I don't understand why it's such a bad thing? It's not like people are giving dogs away left and right. If I have a dog that can't go to nationals or world's she's not going to do it for anyone else either. 

I want a national and world level dog. I'm keeping my current dog, but that's not what she is. She's a fine club dog. But apart from only legally being able to own three dogs in my county, I don't have the time, space or money for that many more. If my next puppy is not what I want, why is there shame in giving him to someone who is going to love and utilize him for the strengths he has? He's not going to the shelter. He's going to go to someone who wants what he has to offer. 

I could not provide a happy life for more than three dogs. It would be unfair to them and to me. I don't know how many dogs you expect people to keep around for 10-15 years until they find the right one.

I love my dogs, but if I really felt they'd be happier with someone else, why wouldn't I consider it?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

there was another string on this subject but there is a difference of disposing of a dog and rehoming a dog. I would rather take a dog that isn't working out for me and place it with people who will give that dog the time and attention it would NOT have just hanging around at my house, a social outcast, because it will never get the same amount of time and attention my working dogs will get as I take them out to trainings and searches. Some people are fortunate to have a large family or yard or property that can keep all the dogs that don't pan out. But many of us don't. Or at least I don't. But in the end, it's really what's best for the dog. Keep it on principle or realize that the dog may get a better deal in someone else's home.

Now what I will not rehome are my old retired dogs because I think rehoming a 13-14 year old dog isn't fair to the dog who has spent years walking at your side. But that's just me.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> there was another string on this subject but there is a difference of disposing of a dog and rehoming a dog. I would rather take a dog that isn't working out for me and place it with people who will give that dog the time and attention it would NOT have just hanging around at my house, a social outcast, because it will never get the same amount of time and attention my working dogs will get as I take them out to trainings and searches. Some people are fortunate to have a large family or yard or property that can keep all the dogs that don't pan out. But many of us don't. Or at least I don't. But in the end, it's really what's best for the dog. Keep it on principle or realize that the dog may get a better deal in someone else's home.
> 
> Now what I will not rehome are my old retired dogs because I think rehoming a 13-14 year old dog isn't fair to the dog who has spent years walking at your side. But that's just me.


Exactly.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> If I have a dog that can't go to nationals or world's she's not going to do it for anyone else either.


Really? You've never titled a dog much less been to Nationals or Worlds and you think if you can't get x dog to the Nationals no one else can either? All you need is a 270 score to qualify for Nationals.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian, 

I agree. One of my two-year-olds was a "take her home and try her over the winter and see how you like her." I thought she was maybe a little soft for my usual tastes but I really liked her mother. As it turned out she has some issues. Is she going anywhere? No. There are some things I REALLY like about her and she is only two. The real proof is in the pudding at age 3-5 so I'm gambling and I'm going to wait it out. Each dog makes me a better trainer and I learn something. My other picked more along my testing criteria has already proved his meddle. Some people are great at returning and rehoming and this keeps their numbers down, etc. A trainer I really respected once said, "if you don't like your dog, get another." At the time this sorta rubbed me the wrong way. But having seen handlers constantly put down their dogs and treat them like they just don't cut the mustard, I now think differently about it. It may be better for the dog to be rehomed to someone who actually likes and appreciates him/her for who they are instead of wishing they were someone else. I think the dogs constantly know they don't quite measure up. So with that, I say to each's own.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian said;
"I always find an outlet for my pup, even if it (and I) don't make it to the big stakes".


I've done a wide assortment of activities with my dogs as far back as I can remember. I've had one Nationally ranked Kerry Blue Terrier in AKC OB but other then that it's just been lots fun with whatever I've had. 
I also love working with puppies. I'd rather see the light bulb go on in a puppy then compete with a fully trained dog. 
I've re homed two pups in my life time. Two Mals that weren't worth a crap if they weren't in drive and I can't stand/wont train/don't want to train/probably CAN'T train a dog with nerve/environmental issues. Other then that if I bring them home for me they are here to stay.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Katie Findlay said "I want a national and world level dog"

Dare I ask what you are going to supply to the success?

They don't come all pretty packed up for Christmas. The best national and work level dog has very often had an experienced and dedicated handler behind it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> Now what I will not rehome are my old retired dogs because I think rehoming a 13-14 year old dog isn't fair to the dog who has spent years walking at your side. But that's just me.


For me this would not even be worth mentioning. Of course most of us would not rehome such an old dog, or????


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Gillian,
> 
> I agree. One of my two-year-olds was a "take her home and try her over the winter and see how you like her." I thought she was maybe a little soft for my usual tastes but I really liked her mother. As it turned out she has some issues. Is she going anywhere? No. There are some things I REALLY like about her and she is only two. The real proof is in the pudding at age 3-5 so I'm gambling and I'm going to wait it out. Each dog makes me a better trainer and I learn something. My other picked more along my testing criteria has already proved his meddle. Some people are great at returning and rehoming and this keeps their numbers down, etc. A trainer I really respected once said, "if you don't like your dog, get another." At the time this sorta rubbed me the wrong way. But having seen handlers constantly put down their dogs and treat them like they just don't cut the mustard, I now think differently about it. It may be better for the dog to be rehomed to someone who actually likes and appreciates him/her for who they are instead of wishing they were someone else. I think the dogs constantly know they don't quite measure up. So with that, I say to each's own.
> 
> T


I'm glad you agree!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Gillian said;
> "I always find an outlet for my pup, even if it (and I) don't make it to the big stakes".
> 
> 
> ...


I think we understand each other anyway?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Katie Findlay said "I want a national and world level dog"
> 
> Dare I ask what you are going to supply to the success?
> 
> They don't come all pretty packed up for Christmas. The best national and work level dog has very often had an experienced and dedicated handler behind it.


You underestimate the work I have put into my current dog, and the fact that the dog itself is just as big of a factor in national competition as the handler.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

There is a 12 year old showing her dog in the AWMA nationals this year.

Why do you have so little support for new handlers and their big aspirations?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> You underestimate the work I have put into my current dog, and the fact that the dog itself is just as big of a factor in national competition as the handler.


 
That I cannot do unless you informe me about it. I don't live in the USA and have know knowledge of your succes. My pardon!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That I cannot do unless you informe me about it. I don't live in the USA and have know knowledge of your succes. My pardon!


 ¨
Sorry for the typos!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Katie Findlay said: Why do you have so little support for new handlers and their big aspirations?

Wherever did you get this idea? Why don't you try reading other members' posts and digesting them?

You ae always on the defensive. Why? No one is trying to camp your style.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Katie Findlay said: Why do you have so little support for new handlers and their big aspirations?
> 
> Wherever did you get this idea? Why don't you try reading other members' posts and digesting them?
> 
> You ae always on the defensive. Why? No one is trying to camp your style.


You don't seem to want to believe that you need the right dog to go to nationals. You said "dare I ask" as if you were trying to confront me.

I'm not always on the defensive. I just think new handlers deserve more credit than most people want to give.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> You don't seem to want to believe that you need the right dog to go to nationals. You said "dare I ask" as if you were trying to confront me.
> 
> I'm not always on the defensive. I just think new handlers deserve more credit than most people want to give.



Whatever you say


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Whatever you say


And then you ask me why I'm defensive with you.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Katie Findlay said "I want a national and world level dog"
> 
> Dare I ask what you are going to supply to the success?
> 
> They don't come all pretty packed up for Christmas. The best national and work level dog has very often had an experienced and dedicated handler behind it.


What Katie brings to the table is what every top level competitor brings to the sport....hard work and respect for the craft. Just letting you know that since you don't know what's going on here 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Katie,

What did you see in Danni's parents that made you think that she would be a top level IPO dog? Neither the dam or sire (who owns Doc now?) has a title and the breeder isn't active in IPO. This isn't a commentary on Danni, because I have never seen her. It is more a question of how and why you went about choosing Doc and Annabelle as parents for a top level competition dog.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Katie,
> 
> What did you see in Danni's parents that made you think that she would be a top level IPO dog? Neither the dam or sire has a title and the breeder isn't active in IPO. This isn't a commentary on Danni, because I have never seen her. It is more a question of how and why you went about choosing Doc and Annabelle as parents for a top level competition dog.


I was not at all looking for a top sport dog when I chose Danni. I wanted a companion I could do IPO with.

Danni's breeder is one of my favorite people ever. She's just wonderful and I really don't have a single bad thing to say about her. She gave me exactly what I wanted at the time.

So, initially, I found dogs I liked. I like both of her parents a lot. In hindsight I know now they aren't ideal IPO prospects, but they are serious protection dogs. Danni's dam can be mean as hell. So I liked both dogs, and the D litter was a repeat of the B litter a year later, and I liked the young dogs from the B litter. No health problems or issues from any of her parents or siblings (there is a younger repeat litter as well). Good work ethic, really stable temperaments, and good aggression.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> I was not at all looking for a top sport dog when I chose Danni. I wanted a companion I could do IPO with.
> 
> Danni's breeder is one of my favorite people ever. She's just wonderful and I really don't have a single bad thing to say about her. She gave me exactly what I wanted at the time.
> 
> So, initially, I found dogs I liked. I like both of her parents a lot. In hindsight I know now they aren't ideal IPO prospects, but they are serious protection dogs. Danni's dam can be mean as hell. So I liked both dogs, and the D litter was a repeat of the B litter a year later, and I liked the young dogs from the B litter. No health problems or issues from any of her parents or siblings (there is a younger repeat litter as well). Good work ethic, really stable temperaments, and good aggression.


Thanks. That makes sense. 

Did you ever see Doc work? I have heard that he was basically uncontrollable and very dominant. Does Betty still own him? He basically vanished from her webpage without comment, so I don't know if he died or was sold. He should still be relatively young at 7 or 8.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Thanks. That makes sense.
> 
> Did you ever see Doc work? I have heard that he was basically uncontrollable and very dominant. Does Betty still own him? He basically vanished from her webpage without comment, so I don't know if he died or was sold. He should still be relatively young at 7 or 8.


He's still around. I don't about uncontrollable, but he was very dominant. I did not see him work. But I met him. He reminded me of an older DDR temperament. Grumbly, haha. Betty has him as far as I know.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I don't even think she has the D litter on her website still. I always joke with her about us being the "middle litter" that gets neglected


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie, 

Danni is what--age 2? What makes her just a "club level dog," as opposed to national level and you've described her as unreliable--in what respect?

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> You underestimate the work I have put into my current dog, and the fact that the dog itself is just as big of a factor in national competition as the handler.


Hours of work don't matter if you don't have the talent and/or experience. Saying no one could get Danni to the Nationals if you can't, comes across as arrogance. You haven't earned the right to make a statement like that :-(

I know I'm picking on you and am waiting for Sir Christopher Smith to jump to your defense ;-)


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Katie,
> 
> Danni is what--age 2? What makes her just a "club level dog," as opposed to national level and you've described her as unreliable--in what respect?
> 
> T


She'll be 4 in a few months, actually, and she doesn't respond to a constant stimulus in a consistent manner.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> She'll be 4 in a few months, actually, and she doesn't respond to a constant stimulus in a consistent manner.



What constant stimulus?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Any? It's a generic statement for a generic issue.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Thanks. That makes sense.
> 
> Did you ever see Doc work? I have heard that he was basically uncontrollable and very dominant. Does Betty still own him? He basically vanished from her webpage without comment, so I don't know if he died or was sold. He should still be relatively young at 7 or 8.


Have we met?

My website is woefully neglected Mark and I should most likely take it down. I'm not even sure if my last couple litters made it on it. 

And yes Doc is alive and here. 

Doc is a very dominant male and was way too much dog for me when I obtained him. I pretty much made every mistake in the book with him and piled it on top of the already questionable training he had received.

I took a good dog, pretty much ruined him and pulled out right as we teetering on the edge of HA of which there is no return. And the poor dog was giving me every warning he could give and I was not listening to him.

I pulled him out of training and we hung around for a while. And then I started working with him like I would a puppy. He's a far better person then I am and he started trusting me again.

After a year I started working with a trainer who taught *me* how to work with a dog like Doc. It took a long long time to get off leash control of him in protection but we did it. 

And at that I considered our job was done. Doc is very happy guarding the couch from all intruders.

Doc is a good boy. He deserved better then he got. 

He taught me far far more then I ever taught him.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Any? It's a generic statement for a generic issue.



Such as? Interesting. I never think in terms of dogs and "generic." Is there a specific example?

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

No, I do not wish to discuss it further.

Mostly because I think the idea will be largely misunderstood. I don't care if my response reflects poorly of me, but I do care if it reflects poorly on Betty.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> No, I do not wish to discuss it further.
> 
> Mostly because I think the idea will be largely misunderstood. I don't care if my response reflects poorly of me, but I do care if it reflects poorly on Betty.


Katie you've worked darn hard with Danni and have accomplished a lot. I'm proud of both of you. If you have decided that Danni is not the dog for your future goals I trust you judgement. I know you have worked very hard with her. 

There seems to be some undercurrents on this thread and I am going to bow out. If anyone does have any questions on my dogs, my breeding program, past or current dogs or the sad state of my website feel free to contact me directly.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks Betty. I appreciate that a lot. Danni might not be a national level dog but that doesn't mean we won't still be doing IPO! Like I said, she is exactly what I wanted. Thank you.



Betty Mathena said:


> Katie you've worked darn hard with Danni and have accomplished a lot. I'm proud of both of you. If you have decided that Danni is not the dog for your future goals I trust you judgement. I know you have worked very hard with her.
> 
> There seems to be some undercurrents on this thread and I am going to bow out. If anyone does have any questions on my dogs, my breeding program, past or current dogs or the sad state of my website feel free to contact me directly.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Betty Mathena said:


> Have we met?
> 
> My website is woefully neglected Mark and I should most likely take it down. I'm not even sure if my last couple litters made it on it.
> 
> ...


I don't believe that we have. I am glad to hear that Doc is doing well and is enjoying retirement. Have you retired him from breeding as well?


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Back to the original topic... I think one of the main concern people use to have with rehoming dogs is an egocentric idea that the dog love them so much that would destroy their heart if not only with them. Sad truth (for the human) is that balanced dogs with no anxiety problems take only a little time to adjust to their new home and owners and then the people feel like the dog is cheating on them for not being heartbroken.

Of course that adaptability decreases with age (just like us, I don't even change my brand of coffee by now), but most handlers have it figured out by 2-3 years old and by then the dog is at his pic of the adaptability/maturity curve, so on an, again, normal working dog it shouldn't be an issue.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Catalina Valencia said:


> Back to the original topic... I think one of the main concern people use to have with rehoming dogs is an egocentric idea that the dog love them so much that would destroy their heart if not only with them. Sad truth (for the human) is that balanced dogs with no anxiety problems take only a little time to adjust to their new home and owners and then the people feel like the dog is cheating on them for not being heartbroken.
> 
> Of course that adaptability decreases with age (just like us, I don't even change my brand of coffee by now), but most handlers have it figured out by 2-3 years old and by then the dog is at his pic of the adaptability/maturity curve, so on an, again, normal working dog it shouldn't be an issue.


Exactly.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think if the dog is a "purpose" dog then this works for you. I don't underestimate a dog's attachment to its person. How that dog has lived in relationship to that person has a lot to do with how well the transfer can work. For me its more of a question of my attachment to the dog. I know how I am so I select with that in mind. If I gamble, I gamble with the idea that whatever it turns out to be I'm going to work with it to make sure it reaches its maximum potential. If that maximum potential isn't my idea then its a learning experience and select better the next time.

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I would just like to clarify my opinion on pups, mainly GSD, but also Malinos.
> 
> I have only owned GSDs apart from other breeds (Landseer, Fila Brasileiro, Berger de Brie).
> 
> ...


I guess it largely depends on the training venue and the situation you are in to begin with. I've seen trainers in my own venue that would pick up a pup, return it a week, or a month or even a few months later, and grab a new pup to try again. For me personally the only reason to rehome a dog would be the fact that I could not get it to bite. Its appearance, demeanor or attitude is something I can train, the bite will be harder to deal with tho... A dog who has no love for the bite has no place in my kennel and will be rehomed to a nice place. Funny thing is, never had it come to that. Some dogs are slow on the bite but can be taught to get just as good a bite as the natural born bitemonsters out there. It just takes time, and more effort on my part. I personally am not a person to give up on a dog, to do so is a personal failure and something I can not live with. But different strokes aply to different folks...

I can see your point tho. I believe a good doghandler is not a handler that returns dog after dog, but a handler that works with what he has got infront of him. Good doghandling and working is not about avoiding problems in a dog by returning it to a breeder or rehoming it, it is about working what you have and using your head to fix the problem.

Personally speaking I would say that the great doghandlers, who are known to return pup after pup or dog after dog for rehoming, are not such good handlers to begin with, they are people who pick a dog that is easy to work for them and they reach the top because they did not have to make much of an effort to get there, they avoided the effort by disposing of the more troublesome or less drivey dog to begin with. 

The great doghandlers are the ones that pick a dog and work it, regardless of the obstacles they may encounter.... and who put out a good product at the end of the journey. 

I agree with you on the "If it doesn't work we'll send it back" statement. I do not feel people should have to keep a dog if it is totally unsuitable for what they work for, but I do feel they should make more effort in trying and they should stop treating dogs as if they were disposable objects only there to suit one specific need. But I am afraid that is a pipe dream to begin with. The discarding already starts in the litter when a pup is picked, the testing and parading around of pups to see which one has more of this or that is what started this whole trend of use and discard. People are so quick to judge on a moments notice that they forget to look forward and see what sort of potential a dog has to bring in future or what potential you might get out of it at a later age.... Too much is being hung up on breeding, bloodlines, genetics and what have you not and using common sense and good training is forgotten, bloodlines are blamed, genetics is blamed, breeder is blamed... funny enough, never the owner or handler. 

Maybe some food for thought...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> I don't understand why it's such a bad thing? It's not like people are giving dogs away left and right. *If I have a dog that can't go to nationals or world's she's not going to do it for anyone else either. *
> 
> I want a national and world level dog. I'm keeping my current dog, but that's not what she is. She's a fine club dog. But apart from only legally being able to own three dogs in my county, I don't have the time, space or money for that many more. If my next puppy is not what I want, why is there shame in giving him to someone who is going to love and utilize him for the strengths he has? He's not going to the shelter. He's going to go to someone who wants what he has to offer.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of your statement. You can only keep as many dogs as you have room for. I only have 1 kennel, its occupied with a Rampant Robbie, and should he fail to show what I desire him to show, he will be rehomed. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. 

I have to say tho, me being me and all, to state that you couldn't get Dani to worlds or nationals doesn't automatically mean anyone else couldn't either. You couldn't get her to that level for whatever reason, I am sure that the dog might have had issues that no one knows about, but to say no one could? Its a very bold statement to make and one you can not be sure of. No offense intended!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I agree with most of your statement. You can only keep as many dogs as you have room for. I only have 1 kennel, its occupied with a Rampant Robbie, and should he fail to show what I desire him to show, he will be rehomed. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that at all.
> 
> I have to say tho, me being me and all, to state that you couldn't get Dani to worlds or nationals doesn't automatically mean anyone else couldn't either. You couldn't get her to that level for whatever reason, I am sure that the dog might have had issues that no one knows about, but to say no one could? Its a very bold statement to make and one you can not be sure of. No offense intended!


I just firmly believe that not all dogs have what it takes for high placement without consistent failing at national level events. Danni just isn't the one. She has great qualities that I love, but no national competitor would take the time to work with her when they can just get a true competing dog. Just my thoughts.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> I just firmly believe that not all dogs have what it takes for high placement without consistent failing at national level events. Danni just isn't the one. She has great qualities that I love, but no national competitor would take the time to work with her when they can just get a true competing dog. Just my thoughts.


 
What would she make a good dog for? What is she lacking to compete at a national level? 


Thanks


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Tiago Fontes said:


> What would she make a good dog for? What is she lacking to compete at a national level?
> 
> 
> Thanks


From an educational standpoint Im curious too.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> From an educational standpoint Im curious too.


She's unreliable. She doesn't respond to a constant stimulus in a consistent matter, as I said before. And that's really the best way to describe it. It takes a really good dog all the way around to compete in IPO nationals and worlds and consistently do well. It's a lot different than a club trial. Not only is the scoring tighter and the pressure higher, there's the stress of traveling, of training harder, etc. Everything affects the dog.

Why can't we all do crime scene clean up or be rocket scientists? We don't have what it takes. A lot of us couldn't handle the pressure of dead bodies day in and day out, or we don't have the patience to do good science (it takes its meticulous time).

It doesn't say anything bad about us. It's just the way it is.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> From an educational standpoint Im curious too.


She's a good club level dog if you don't mind the random inconsistency. She could be an okay personal protection dog, but she's not looking for a fight.

She'd be great in an extremely active single animal pet home that would bike her and hike her and give her an outlet for the energy she has.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Thanks. 

Can you provide an example of a constant stimulous and her lack of response? 



Regards


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Can you provide an example of a constant stimulous and her lack of response?
> 
> ...


No. I already said no.

Why did this thread turn into a thread about my dog's breeder and my dog's issues? I'm sorry I've only been involved in dog sport for five years but I have as good an insight, if not better, than half of the people here. You're succeeding in driving me crazy with your undercuts, your hunting me out in threads to dispute every word I say. And that's fine. But if you want to talk about my dog's breeder, you can contact her. If you have any questions about my dog, come train with me. Don't try and pick apart my life so you find some substantial reason as to why I might be wrong about something. Did you watch my BH video? Was yours better? Great. Let's talk about that. But I'm sick and tired of pernicious idiots trying to get some sort of unknown information out of me. It's unreal, and it's embarrassing. And I'm sorry you all can't believe that there really can be someone smarter and better at the sport they haven't been training at as long than someone who's been doing it for years. Do yourself a favor and degrade little league teams, please. You'll feel special.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I've gotta say it does appear as though some here have an inordinate interest in Katie's opinion of her dog. She said the dog's a club level dog and she wants a better dog so enough said. I know it would be enough said if it came out of the mouths of other members. Personally I find it refreshing that she can look at her dog with an honest eye instead of crowing that her dog is Skippy the Wonder dog like soooooo many other first time sport dog owners are prone to do. It's not like she's dumping the dog, or mistreating the dog. She's not whining about the dog or bad mouthing or blaming the breeder. She's training the dog and doing the best she can, working with what she's got. She wants a dog more suited to high level sport next time, far as I know, nothing in the world wrong with that, and good for her for having goals.

Kind of damned if she does and damned if she doesn't around here sometimes. Oh and by the way, you can learn just as much from training a good dog as you can training a shitter, sometimes more. As far as great trainers taking mediocre dogs to upper levels of the sport, yeah we all know it's done in all sports....usually those trainers are being paid to do it. Not one great trainer I know goes out of his or her way to find a shitter just because they can.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

What's funny is that you actually believe you're all that, as far as IPO training after five years and not even having done an IPO I.
When anyone questions any of your ridiculous delusional statements like if you can't "take Danni to the Nationals nobody can". You get all defensive and nasty.
Your BH video was very nice, but it's a LONG way from a nice BH to a National level performance. Actions speak much louder then words. Title a dog before you start picturing yourself on the podium.


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> When anyone questions any of your ridiculous delusional statements like if you can't "take Danni to the Nationals nobody can". You get all defensive and nasty.


I had the same reaction as you when I read that, but re-reading her post and through the following ones, now I see that what she meant is that "If her can't take Danny to the Nationals, nobody will." Not because she's a better trainer than nobody else, but because she is involved in taking this particular dog to the highest level she can reach with her, while those competing at higher levels would not even bother wasting time with a club level dog.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Catalina Valencia said:


> I had the same reaction as you when I read that, but re-reading her post and through the following ones, now I see that what she meant is that "If her can't take Danny to the Nationals, nobody will." Not because she's a better trainer than nobody else, but because she is involved in taking this particular dog to the highest level she can reach with her, while those competing at higher levels would not even bother wasting time with a club level dog.


The cavalcade of naysayers can't see that. It's willful ignorance. They need to find a way for me to look bad.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

_And I'm sorry you all can't believe that there really can be someone smarter and better at the sport they haven't been training at as long than someone who's been doing it for years._

Intriguing. I think one idea is that one person's club level could be someone else's national level dog. I've asked before how others distinguish the two since I've even seen puppies advertised as "club level." I train/trial a dog that was said to be untrainable by the prior trainer. As TRAINERS, I think when someone says a dog is unreliable and the definition of that is that the dog doesn't respond consistently to a constant stimulus, one is curious as to what that stimulus is and [for me] how is it constant. But I'm sure, its just as easy to ignore such statements rather lest you be accused of the you're out to get me and/or make me look bad statements and later, mod deletes.

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> _And I'm sorry you all can't believe that there really can be someone smarter and better at the sport they haven't been training at as long than someone who's been doing it for years._
> 
> Intriguing. I think one idea is that one person's club level could be someone else's national level dog. I've asked before how others distinguish the two since I've even seen puppies advertised as "club level." I train/trial a dog that was said to be untrainable by the prior trainer. As TRAINERS, I think when someone says a dog is unreliable and the definition of that is that the dog doesn't respond consistently to a constant stimulus, one is curious as to what that stimulus is and [for me] how is it constant. But I'm sure, its just as easy to ignore such statements rather lest you be accused of the you're out to get me and/or make me look bad statements and later, mod deletes.
> 
> T


I ANSWERED that question. Can you read?! I said ANY stimulus. You just don't like that answer, so you dismiss it as a non-answer.

I told you why I don't want to discuss my dog's issues. I'm sorry you're so intrigued you can't accept that.

If you can't decipher a club level dog from a national level dog, all I can tell you is to get out and train with national competitors. That's not something you can learn over the Internet.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> I ANSWERED that question. Can you read?! I said ANY stimulus. You just don't like that answer, so you dismiss it as a non-answer.
> 
> I told you why I don't want to discuss my dog's issues. I'm sorry you're so intrigued you can't accept that.
> 
> If you can't decipher a club level dog from a national level dog, all I can tell you is to get out and train with national competitors. That's not something you can learn over the Internet.


I'm sorry, it is a non-answer. Like you said before--generic. Means absolutely nothing in terms of understanding what's going on with that dog which is why you were asked for an example. What's the big deal anyway. You've made a point of calling her unreliable and just club level and saying you're up to training national level. That alone indicates from your standpoint its a genetic character issue. If its all a big secret, why mention she has issues at all and KEEP mentioning it in every thread possible. If I recall my deciphering didn't work for at least one person. They seemed to think club level didn't necessarily mean that the dog was deficient but maybe the handler was or just not interested in anything beyond club level for whatever reason. Like I said, I'm not one to assume. As I told you before, I can perfectly accept that you can't/won't define or explain something. You fail to see that someone could look at a dog objectively and it has nothing to do with the handler or breeder. All that stuff about who it reflects poorly on. Maybe its not about you or Betty. Maybe people are interested in terms of discussing different dog traits and TRAINING. I think the knee jerk thing is to find out what it is to see if there is a plausible fix. That's how trainers think--fix it. Depending on what it is, they might agree--club level. Sometimes those discussions are useful in thinking about either our own dogs or others that we train. But I figured you're not interested in suggestions and have your mind made up. Besides if someone can't or refuses to make specific characterizations, its impossible to really understand what's going on with the dog. A stimulus is a leaf blowing in the air. Is her response consistent every time? Does it matter? What stimulus is constant without change to a dog? I think the others were probably thinking along the same lines. 

As for intriguing, its the idea of you latching on to a statement of what you meant by saying that if you can't get her to the national level, no one can and in a second breath declaring yourself better than others that have been in the sport longer. But like I said, I think its easiest to think "disregard" when you make those type of statements.

T


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm sorry, it is a non-answer. Like you said before--generic. Means absolutely nothing in terms of understanding what's going on with that dog which is why you were asked for an example. What's the big deal anyway. You've made a point of calling her unreliable and just club level and saying you're up to training national level. That alone indicates from your standpoint its a genetic character issue. If its all a big secret, why mention she has issues at all and KEEP mentioning it in every thread possible. If I recall my deciphering didn't work for at least one person. They seemed to think club level didn't necessarily mean that the dog was deficient but maybe the handler was or just not interested in anything beyond club level for whatever reason. Like I said, I'm not one to assume. As I told you before, I can perfectly accept that you can't/won't define or explain something. You fail to see that someone could look at a dog objectively and it has nothing to do with the handler or breeder. All that stuff about who it reflects poorly on. Maybe its not about you or Betty. Maybe people are interested in terms of discussing different dog traits and TRAINING. I think the knee jerk thing is to find out what it is to see if there is a plausible fix. That's how trainers think--fix it. Depending on what it is, they might agree--club level. Sometimes those discussions are useful in thinking about either our own dogs or others that we train. But I figured you're not interested in suggestions and have your mind made up. Besides if someone can't or refuses to make specific characterizations, its impossible to really understand what's going on with the dog. A stimulus is a leaf blowing in the air. Is her response consistent every time? Does it matter? What stimulus is constant without change to a dog? I think the others were probably thinking along the same lines.
> 
> As for intriguing, its the idea of you latching on to a statement of what you meant by saying that if you can't get her to the national level, no one can and in a second breath declaring yourself better than others that have been in the sport longer. But like I said, I think its easiest to think "disregard" when you make those type of statements.
> 
> T


I think if Katie wanted yours or anyone else's advise about whether or not there was a plausible fix with regards to her dog, she would have asked. Since she hasn't solicited you or anyone else on this forum for advise with regards to her dogs abilities, it really doesn't matter whether or not you understand what's going on with the dog, because it's none of your business. Katie trains with a number of very qualified people whos opinions she values, and I'm sure she has taken their advise more than once along the way. She has already told you numerous times she doesn't wish to discuss the dog with you, obviously she isn't interested in your advise regarding her dog.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> No. I already said no.
> 
> Why did this thread turn into a thread about my dog's breeder and my dog's issues? I'm sorry I've only been involved in dog sport for five years but I have as good an insight, if not better, than half of the people here. You're succeeding in driving me crazy with your undercuts, your hunting me out in threads to dispute every word I say. And that's fine. But if you want to talk about my dog's breeder, you can contact her. If you have any questions about my dog, come train with me. Don't try and pick apart my life so you find some substantial reason as to why I might be wrong about something. Did you watch my BH video? Was yours better? Great. Let's talk about that. But I'm sick and tired of pernicious idiots trying to get some sort of unknown information out of me. It's unreal, and it's embarrassing. And I'm sorry you all can't believe that there really can be someone smarter and better at the sport they haven't been training at as long than someone who's been doing it for years. Do yourself a favor and degrade little league teams, please. You'll feel special.


Can I be really harsh for a moment here and say that you really should try and be less defensive of every question posed? I agree, some people are probably baiting you, but some actually have a real interest in your dog and how she works.... I am going to go out on a limb now and say that the only reason they bait you is because it seems to work each and every time they do so. You get angry and defensive and at times even go into full attack mode just because you feel cornered... Try and ignore the baiting, Katie. If you do not like the posts, then do not answer them but to get angry every time a question is posed to you isn't doing you any favours either. 

Some sit here and read the problems and try to come up with ideas, solutions, other ways to work around whatever problems they see on the forum. That is what this forum is about, sharing your stories, coming up with ideas, looking for answers and helping people along in the working dog world.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I think if Katie wanted yours or anyone else's advise about whether or not there was a plausible fix with regards to her dog, she would have asked. Since she hasn't solicited you or anyone else on this forum for advise with regards to her dogs abilities, it really doesn't matter whether or not you understand what's going on with the dog, because it's none of your business. Katie trains with a number of very qualified people whos opinions she values, and I'm sure she has taken their advise more than once along the way. She has already told you numerous times she doesn't wish to discuss the dog with you, obviously she isn't interested in your advise regarding her dog.


Here let me help you and the little damsel in distress out. I'd be the last person to advise Katie of anything and really don't see Katie as anyone to discuss training or anything else with at this point. She can demand to know the why and what behind someone else's opinion but then when she is asked about her own, she needs one of her knights in shining armor to come to her rescue. Then comes the "you're out to get me" statements and enter the saviors drawing their swords. I agree wholeheartedly that she has people who advise her. Everything about her says so. 

T


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Here let me help you and the little damsel in distress out. I'd be the last person to advise Katie of anything and really don't see Katie as anyone to discuss training or anything else with at this point. She can demand to know the why and what behind someone else's opinion but then when she is asked about her own, she needs one of her knights in shining armor to come to her rescue. Then comes the "you're out to get me" statements and enter the saviors drawing their swords. I agree wholeheartedly that she has people who advise her. Everything about her says so.
> 
> T


hahaha I certainly don't need your "help" in anything Terrasita, nor does Katie, and that's what really sticks in your craw. I guess when she wants your advise she'll ask for it, but if I were you I wouldn't hold my breath. She answered your questions, you just don't like the answers, so you keep picking at it. No one has ridden to Katie's "rescue" because she doesn't need any rescuing, not from the likes of you.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Some sit here and read the problems and try to come up with ideas, solutions, other ways to work around whatever problems they see on the forum. That is what this forum is about, sharing your stories, coming up with ideas, looking for answers and helping people along in the working dog world.


I agree - when people ask for advise. The difference here, is that not only did she not ask for advise with regards to her dog on this thread, she went so far as to state she didn't want to continue to discuss the issues of her dog :



Katie Finlay said:


> No, I do not wish to discuss it further.


But people chose to disregard her request and continue to push, which in my book is rather rude and completely disrespectful. So yes, it would be better if she were to ignore those who bait her, but at the same time, people need to grow up and quit with the bullshit baiting.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> No. I already said no.
> 
> Why did this thread turn into a thread about my dog's breeder and my dog's issues? I'm sorry I've only been involved in dog sport for five years but I have as good an insight, if not better, than half of the people here. You're succeeding in driving me crazy with your undercuts, your hunting me out in threads to dispute every word I say. And that's fine. But if you want to talk about my dog's breeder, you can contact her. If you have any questions about my dog, come train with me. Don't try and pick apart my life so you find some substantial reason as to why I might be wrong about something. Did you watch my BH video? Was yours better? Great. Let's talk about that. But I'm sick and tired of pernicious idiots trying to get some sort of unknown information out of me. It's unreal, and it's embarrassing. And I'm sorry you all can't believe that there really can be someone smarter and better at the sport they haven't been training at as long than someone who's been doing it for years. Do yourself a favor and degrade little league teams, please. You'll feel special.


 
I am sorry to disappoint you, but in no way, shape or form am I trying to "pick" your life apart or your dog's breeder. I have no idea who you are, what you do or who you think you might be. I was just asking in a polite manner, because I was truly interested in understanding your point of view. 

As for the rest of your post, I will leave it at that, for it is somewhat immature especially when you're simply being asked to share an experience. 


Thank you for taking the time to address my initial questions. 



Regards


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I am sorry to disappoint you, but in no way, shape or form am I trying to "pick" your life apart or your dog's breeder. I have no idea who you are, what you do or who you think you might be. I was just asking in a polite manner, because I was truly interested in understanding your point of view.
> 
> As for the rest of your post, I will leave it at that, for it is somewhat immature especially when you're simply being asked to share an experience.
> 
> ...


Read Susan's above post please.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I have stated multiple times in multiple threads I do not wish to discuss my dog's issues. 

Yes, I should ignore people baiting me. But sometimes I think that they are actual people that want answers just like the others with a genuine interest.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Also, generic is an answer. You said yourself, you just don't think of it in terms of dogs.

My dog's unreliability has zero to do with me or her breeder. It's not genetic. I said I didn't want to discuss it because people here, particularly those that share your tiny little brain, don't understand.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Catalina Valencia said:


> I had the same reaction as you when I read that, but re-reading her post and through the following ones, now I see that what she meant is that "If her can't take Danny to the Nationals, nobody will." Not because she's a better trainer than nobody else, but because she is involved in taking this particular dog to the highest level she can reach with her, while those competing at higher levels would not even bother wasting time with a club level dog.


HI Catalina


None of my dogs is going to Nationals either, but that's on account of me not them. I'd like to see a little more walking (at least title the dog at a local level) and a lot less talking about how you're going to compete at the Nationals.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Also, generic is an answer. You said yourself, you just don't think of it in terms of dogs.
> 
> My dog's unreliability has zero to do with me or her breeder. It's not genetic. I said I didn't want to discuss it because people here, particularly those that share your tiny little brain, don't understand.


You haven't defined unreliability or are willing to entertain the possibility that her sporadic heat cycles influence her "unreliability" and are genetic. Instead you get defensive and insulting :-(
I'd like to see her get her IPO I + and do as good a job as she did on her BH.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mark Sheplak said:

_Katie,

What did you see in Danni's parents that made you think that she would be a top level IPO dog? Neither the dam or sire (who owns Doc now?) has a title and the breeder isn't active in IPO. This isn't a commentary on Danni, because I have never seen her. It is more a question of how and why you went about choosing Doc and Annabelle as parents for a top level competition dog._

That was in answered in #23.

There were questions about Doc. Betty herself replied in #32.

More questions about Katie's dog, to which she replied:

_"I do not wish to discuss it further.

Mostly because I think the idea will be largely misunderstood. I don't care if my response reflects poorly of me, but I do care if it reflects poorly on Betty."
_

Betty said _"There seems to be some undercurrents on this thread and I am going to bow out. If anyone does have any questions on my dogs, my breeding program, past or current dogs or the sad state of my website feel free to contact me directly."
_

Now the _Katie's dog _part of the thread is over. 

QUOTE: _".... not only did she not ask for advise with regards to her dog on this thread, she went so far as to state she didn't want to continue to discuss the issues of her dog. ... But people chose to disregard her request and continue to push ... So yes, it would be better if she were to ignore those who bait her, but at the same time, people need to grow up and quit with the bullshit baiting."_ END QUOTE


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> .... I always find an outlet for my pup, even if it (and I) don't make it to the big stakes. I enjoy training and if the training leads me to greater heights, then I am very happy.
> 
> I keep my pups and so far have had medioce to very good results with them nationally. Obviously, an international result would have filled me with joy but this wasn't to be. Running our own business, teaching, etc. stood in the way but, maybe if I had had the chance at International Trials, I could have got around this.
> 
> ...



Is rehoming by the owner different from the return-to-breeder scenario described?

I haven't given it a ton of thought, but thought I'd ask this because it popped out at me (and I would be nice to return to the O.P. ;-) ).

Or is it pretty much the same thing (breeder finds another appropriate home)?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is rehoming by the owner different from the return-to-breeder scenario described?
> 
> I haven't given it a ton of thought, but thought I'd ask this because it popped out at me (and I would be nice to return to the O.P. ;-) ).
> 
> Or is it pretty much the same thing (breeder finds another appropriate home)?


Not for me, really. When I say return to breeder, I mean on a first-right-of-refusal basis. I haven't ever rehomed a dog, but if I did I would give my breeder the option to take the dog back first. 

To return a puppy it would really have to be not what I asked for, ie. permanently ill, crippled, obvious temperament issue. Like if I got a puppy that was afraid of its own shadow or a clearly mismarked puppy I wanted for show.

They're both returns, but for an older dog the return is the first scenario.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> For me personally the only reason to rehome a dog would be the fact that I could not get it to bite.


Here is something else to consider. One of the main objectives in KNPV is to sell the dog. So in your program the dog is only going to be around for 2 or 3 years at the very most. On the other hand the goal of most IPO people is to train the dog until it's 6 to 8 years old. 

Personally I find it much easier to train a dog that doesn't quite suit me for a couple of years than it is to train him for 7. And to sugarcoat it the KNPV dog gives money back when it's sold. Most IPO dogs retire and cost you money.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Here is something else to consider. One of the main objectives in KNPV is to sell the dog. So in your program the dog is only going to be around for 2 or 3 years at the very most. On the other hand the goal of most IPO people is to train the dog until it's 6 to 8 years old.
> 
> Personally I find it much easier to train a dog that doesn't quite suit me for a couple of years than it is to train him for 7. And to sugarcoat it the KNPV dog gives money back when it's sold. Most IPO dogs retire and cost you money.


:lol: Trust me, the KNPV dog does not give its money back by selling it by a long shot! It costs me to train them and the return at the end is nowhere near what I paid in 3 years, at best I might even out.

As for 2 or 3 years, thats PH1 only, I don't have to certify the dog to sell it, the police will buy it regardless of a certificate or not, I want to certify it and train it....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Also, generic is an answer. You said yourself, you just don't think of it in terms of dogs.
> 
> My dog's unreliability has zero to do with me or her breeder. It's not genetic. I said I didn't want to discuss it because people here, particularly those that share your tiny little brain, don't understand.


Ahhhhh, now that you've had your batteries recharged by your enablers, you come out punching with that fight for the sake of a fight. You can never let things go, can you? Thought you didn't want to discuss your dog's issues. Yet, here you come again. You will discuss it to take pot shots and then run to your corner and show teeth when someone ask you a specific question. Then out come your superheros and then you return again. If anyone has the bird brain here its you. Not genetic yet if you can't get her to a national, no one can??? Generic, yet not genetic. Tell us, how did those behaviors form if their not genetic? But oohhhhhh, you can't or won't because you refuse to discuss your dog's issues and the mod and your defenders will come in and slap our hands for asking. You can tell someone else off about "parading their training around." We can have a thread on pedigrees and you want to divert it with your inquiries regarding buy California instead of import. You can bait and taunt to your heart's content [ooohhhhh, this is gonna be good--Gillian], but if someone asks you a question about how you are characterizing a dog whose issues you keep referring to, you issue a gag order. You can run amok, make all the condescending remarks you can muster, but no one can ask you this or that because pooorrrrrr little Katie is off limits. Absolutely ridiculous. 

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Katie said: _"I do not wish to discuss it further.
> 
> Mostly because I think the idea will be largely misunderstood. I don't care if my response reflects poorly of me, but I do care if it reflects poorly on Betty."
> _
> ...



Hey, Terrasita, the thread has stopped being about Katie's dog. I thought it was a clear message. 

The post you quoted was made BEFORE I posted. 






Anyone who brings up a dog they don't want to talk about can fight their own battles without mod intervention.*

That doesn't affect the message about this thread, which is over the top, IMHO.




ETA
* NOT what happened here. You bring it up, you're stuck with it. That is NOT what this is about.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ahhhhh, now that you've had your batteries recharged by your enablers, you come out punching with that fight for the sake of a fight. You can never let things go, can you? Thought you didn't want to discuss your dog's issues. Yet, here you come again. You will discuss it to take pot shots and then run to your corner and show teeth when someone ask you a specific question. Then out come your superheros and then you return again. If anyone has the bird brain here its you. Not genetic yet if you can't get her to a national, no one can??? Generic, yet not genetic. Tell us, how did those behaviors form if their not genetic? But oohhhhhh, you can't or won't because you refuse to discuss your dog's issues and the mod and your defenders will come in and slap our hands for asking. You can tell someone else off about "parading their training around." We can have a thread on pedigrees and you want to divert it with your inquiries regarding buy California instead of import. You can bait and taunt to your heart's content [ooohhhhh, this is gonna be good--Gillian], but if someone asks you a question about how you are characterizing a dog whose issues you keep referring to, you issue a gag order. You can run amok, make all the condescending remarks you can muster, but no one can ask you this or that because pooorrrrrr little Katie is off limits. Absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> T


Grow up Terrasita. The only one being ridiculous is YOU. No one owes you an explanation for anything. If someone doesn't want to discuss their dog, that's just tough shit for you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

WHAT THE HECK ?! 

Am I typing too small? 


Please stop!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Did I miss the part where I brought up my own dog?!??!

Connie, they asked me about my dog. I didn't just bring her up.

Thanks.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Back to the thread!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Did I miss the part where I brought up my own dog?!??!




NO!

I was trying to say "if someone brings up something and _then_ doesn't want to talk about it, fine. THEN they're on their own."


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> NO!
> 
> I was trying to say "if someone brings up something and _then_ doesn't want to talk about it, fine. THEN they're on their own."


Understood. We were back on track for a minute there.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> :lol: Trust me, the KNPV dog does not give its money back by selling it by a long shot! It costs me to train them and the return at the end is nowhere near what I paid in 3 years, at best I might even out.
> 
> As for 2 or 3 years, thats PH1 only, I don't have to certify the dog to sell it, the police will buy it regardless of a certificate or not, I want to certify it and train it....


Alice, I didn't say you made a profit. I said you get money out of the dog when it's sold. So unless you give the dog away, what I said is correct.

So sometimes you get money out of it before the dog is 2 or 3? So you have to keep a dog you like for even a shorter time?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Alice, I didn't say you made a profit. I said you get money out of the dog when it's sold. So unless you give the dog away, what I said is correct.
> 
> So sometimes you get money out of it before the dog is 2 or 3? So you have to keep a dog you like for even a shorter time?


I get money out of it that I put into it to start with...

I don't have to keep a dog, I want to keep them to train them. Selling them before they are trained kind of defeats the purpose of my training them to begin with. I enjoy the training and certifying of a dog, its why I do it, the bonus is that I get to sell them into a job that they are trained for. 

A dog does not have to be KNPV certified to go into LE but most anyone in KNPV wants to see their training through till certifcation, its why they are in the game of KNPV to begin with. 

You seem to imply that KNPV is a gain of money as to where IPO is a loss of money, but that is a personal choice one makes for him/herself. If you wish to play in any sort of dogworking venue there is a pricetag attached, be it KNPV IPO or any other sportsvenue. The choice to keep or sell a dog is there in any sportsvenue, it has nothing to do with age, training or anything at all, it is the owners choice to do so.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

You can believe that I'm implying whatever you want. But the words on the screen day otherwise. 

You sell your dogs. Most IPO people keep their dogs. Therefore if you don't like the dog you know it's going to be gone soon. And on top of that you are going to some money back when you sell it. Let's call it a rebate.

I think that you need to keep this in mind when you judge whether or not an IPO person sells their dog. 

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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> You can believe that I'm implying whatever you want. But the words on the screen day otherwise.
> 
> You sell your dogs. Most IPO people keep their dogs. Therefore if you don't like the dog you know it's going to be gone soon. And on top of that you are going to some money back when you sell it. Let's call it a rebate.
> 
> ...


I did not judge whether an IPO person sells their dog or not, Christopher. I stated it was a choice they made or did not make... As for your opinion on what I need to do? I will start taking your advice and or opinions the day you quite being such an asshole and actually try to have a human conversation with someone without being a judgemental prick. 

Shame, you make valid and good points often, if only you weren't such asshole most of the time....

(Sorry admins, am fed up with this spineless asshole and refuse to shut up about it as well. Feel free to kick me off the forum, apologies towards this guy will NOT be forthcoming.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Do you guys know about the "ignore" feature?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you guys know about the "ignore" feature?


I know the feature but I feel it should not be needed if people could act as adults and be civil instead of acting like a 4 year old with single ownership of any topic that might involve his sports or of which he thinks to have some form of knowledge. I have let him get away with his snide " Beezy/bitch" remark for 3 years without saying a damn word about it and ignoring it for sake of forum and good manners..... Guess what? Act like an asshole and in time you will get treated like one! I am perfectly capable of acting as an adult, I expect the same from him. I refuse to bow down to the mighty Christopher Smith just because he expects it or feels he is entitled to treat people like crap. He however is free to hit the ignore button all he wants..... 

Sorry, Connie. Am at my limit with this.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie I'm far to interesting to be ignored. She can't resist this sexy.

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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I did not judge whether an IPO person sells their dog or not, Christopher. I stated it was a choice they made or did not make... As for your opinion on what I need to do? I will start taking your advice and or opinions the day you quite being such an asshole and actually try to have a human conversation with someone without being a judgemental prick.
> 
> Shame, you make valid and good points often, if only you weren't such asshole most of the time....
> 
> (Sorry admins, am fed up with this spineless asshole and refuse to shut up about it as well. Feel free to kick me off the forum, apologies towards this guy will NOT be forthcoming.)


 
Sorry... I can't ignore also!

+10 Alice!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

-10 

Once again you have been negated. And don't make me -11 you!

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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

lol... ok dude.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:

"Most IPO people keep their dogs."

What world do you live in?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This question about how much breeders earn by selling their pups used to be an old adage in Switzerland.

Some breeders earn, some have bad luck and high vet fees. Small countries have small premises, amount of breeding dogs is limited.

All in all, if you are a breeder that is truly interested in the breed and prepared to invest the time and money to breed good dogs, I guess you won't get rich.

But then, a serious breeder is not just interested in the financial side of things.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> I don't understand why it's such a bad thing? It's not like people are giving dogs away left and right. If I have a dog that can't go to nationals or world's she's not going to do it for anyone else either.
> 
> I want a national and world level dog. I'm keeping my current dog, but that's not what she is. She's a fine club dog. But apart from only legally being able to own three dogs in my county, I don't have the time, space or money for that many more. If my next puppy is not what I want, why is there shame in giving him to someone who is going to love and utilize him for the strengths he has? He's not going to the shelter. He's going to go to someone who wants what he has to offer.
> 
> ...


 
I am not questioning your experience with your own dogs.

I was merely commenting on the fact that you said "if you buy the pup from the States, it's easier to send it back".

Truly - what sort of advice is this?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Catalina Valencia said:


> Back to the original topic... I think one of the main concern people use to have with rehoming dogs is an egocentric idea that the dog love them so much that would destroy their heart if not only with them. Sad truth (for the human) is that balanced dogs with no anxiety problems take only a little time to adjust to their new home and owners and then the people feel like the dog is cheating on them for not being heartbroken.
> 
> Of course that adaptability decreases with age (just like us, I don't even change my brand of coffee by now), but most handlers have it figured out by 2-3 years old and by then the dog is at his pic of the adaptability/maturity curve, so on an, again, normal working dog it shouldn't be an issue.


I agree wit this - the dog can adapt much better than the human.

What my initial issue is, is that one does not contemplate the fact that if the pup does not fill the bill, it can be easily returned - especially if bought in the country one lives in.

For me, these are the words of "möchtegern" Handlers, i.e. handlers that would like to get to the top, come what may, and are always seeking the dog that will get them there:roll:


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I am not questioning your experience with your own dogs.
> 
> I was merely commenting on the fact that you said "if you buy the pup from the States, it's easier to send it back".
> 
> Truly - what sort of advice is this?


Advice given to an OP who has already rehomed his first 8 month old dog.

Can you not read? You started a thread about one thing I said, got sufficient answers and are now asking me the exact same question myself and ten other people answered.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My apologies - put it down to old age


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## Anthony Taylor (Jan 14, 2013)

Katie Finlay said:


> Advice given to an OP who has already rehomed his first 8 month old dog.
> 
> Can you not read? You started a thread about one thing I said, got sufficient answers and are now asking me the exact same question myself and ten other people answered.


Ok, lets just be clear. I did not rehome my "first IPO pup". I let my gf take over as his training and become his handler. He is still in a in a kennel, right in my living room. 
I am however getting another pup that I hope will better fit my style.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Anthony Taylor said:


> Ok, lets just be clear. I did not rehome my "first IPO pup". I let my gf take over as his training and become his handler. He is still in a in a kennel, right in my living room.
> I am however getting another pup that I hope will better fit my style.


My misunderstanding. Either way, I don't find it unusual for someone to rehome a puppy so I didn't think the idea was that far fetched.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree wit this - the dog can adapt much better than the human.
> 
> What my initial issue is, is that one does not contemplate the fact that if the pup does not fill the bill, it can be easily returned - especially if bought in the country one lives in.
> 
> For me, these are the words of "möchtegern" Handlers, i.e. handlers that would like to get to the top, come what may, and are always seeking the dog that will get them there:roll:


I think many dog lovers, pet people more then any, would be depressed to see how their loving furbabies can adapt to a new owner. Feed them and treat them well and they are yours "forever". 
The average police K9 over hear is probably 1 1/2 - 2 1/2 yrs old when the get their new home. In a matter of a week or two they are more then comfortable with their new handlers. Some in a matter of days.
I've only gotten one dog that was an older pup (7months). It was a little female Australian Shepherd and it was given to me as "the dumbest MF that ever walked on 4 legs". The poor little shit didn't even know her own name. Of course the owner wasn't much better. :-o :-# :-$
Within two weeks I had her running obstacle courses with me and she had a recall like a rocket. She was BEGGING to learn! I started her on cadaver work and gave her to a SAR handler that just lost his GSD to cancer. He loved her!


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