# Verifying Information



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm curious how many people actually verify information when looking at purchasing a dog. Health (OFA, Pennhip, CERF, etc) and/or titles.

I got a pup last year who's father is advertised on various websites as OFA Excellent. While doing some searching on the web for other information I ended up on the OFA website. Imagine my surprise when I discovered on the OFA site he's listed as OFA Good, not excellent. Still an acceptable rating but ... I know of a GSD stud who is listed online as HD-A, but once again while googling for something else I ended up on a European site which is basically the equivalent of the OFA site for GSDs, where the dog is listed as HD-C. 
I see dogs advertised as 0/0 for hips/elbows or HD-A when they have never been outside the US, and no organization here issues that type of rating. Or dogs listed as Hips Excellent, Elbows Normal, when you can't find the dog in the OFA website. 

On the title front I was talking to a guy a year or two ago who had purchased a Malinois from an "executive PPD" broker and was told the dog was an FRIII. We were talking about the dog and I asked what scores the dog had. Turns out the dog did a CSAU, Brevet, and 1 leg of FR1 and never competed after that. I've seen other dogs listed with various titles in Sch, Ring, KNPV, etc, but when you Google you can't find a single trial result for them, and the owner refuses to produce a scorebook or other verification.

So I'm curious, how much research do people actually do when buying a dog, or do they just take title and health certification claims at face value?


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I would take NOTHING at anyone's word when it comes to buying an adult dog. I would assume they could make a mistake, or there could be a misunderstanding, or they might be an asshole liar, so to protect myself and any possible relationship, I want to see the certs for myself and where possible would check on the issuing agencies computer site PRIOR to agreeing to purchase the dog. 

I know someone who bought an imported adult male GSD which she thought the importer told her had both hip and elbow clearance certs, and was also breed surveyed. She was disappointed to find out the dog only had hip clearance cert, was NOT breed surveyed and had no elbow clearance certs. 

HELL of an expensive misunderstanding, really nice dog though.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I used to get dogs xrayed myself, when possible, when I was buying expensive rare breed dogs, and had money LOL, regardless if they were certified or xrayed by the previous owner. If owner would not allow that before purchase, pretty simple, did not buy dog. Not the most convenient thing, but is doable, and if someone doesnt allow it, even if I was paying for it, that was huge red flag. Obviously not possible in all cases to do this of course. First thing we did was test parents if possible, then the dog/pup, as far as temp/character, if we liked them, then it was straight to a vet for xrays, if pup was old enough.

I still dont have OFA cert on this female, but do have the xrays available, someone might think that is hinky, I would not blame them if they did,... if someone wanted to pay for updated xrays or demand certification from me, if I was selling her, or if they wanted a pup from her, I would not blame them in the least. easy to get ahold of good xrays and pass them off if one wanted too. Actually not hard to fake OFA either, with tattoo AND microchip, if you really wanted to. So even if dog is supposedly certified, and it checks out, could still be faked if not thoroughly checked out, and microchips can be changed out if someone is really really dirty..


----------



## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

Even though I just now started having interest in stud services to my dog, I offer up the OFA link to his page right away. I also am honest about what he is missing and his titling. I can help but be way too honest. Let's face it though, coming from a dishonest start in dogs, I am paranoid to be looked at in the same light. 

I'm sorry that's happened to you friend Joby.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The OFA database is not complete nor is it 100% correct. If the person has the paper certificate that's what I believe.


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

What's really funny is people shopping xrays around until they come up with one they can slide in with....[-X


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I just brought home a puppy and my breeder provided a folder with copies of OFA, eye and genetic certifications, along with her vaccination records, and registry papers. Otherwise I would not have thought to verify that information and I should have so good point.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't buy puppies. I have the firm belief that vendors have one set of xrays. To that end, I buy contingent on my physical and my xray at my vet. 

DFrost


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> What's really funny is people shopping xrays around until they come up with one they can slide in with....[-X


And that is the number one reason that I think that OFA is almost useless.


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Don't just blame OFA...plenty of folks fail OFA then suddenly turn up with some bs foreign certification.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kadi the other issue, atleast for me, having a vendor who stands behind the sale and *for the purpose you bought the animal. *

I do checks on many purchase types, but I also count on folks who have knowledge or are representing the purchase in MY BEST interest.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> And that is the number one reason that I think that OFA is almost useless.


OFA needs to have a system like PennHip where if you commit to taking the dog in, they MUST be submitted BY THE VET, not by the owner. This would take out the shopping around factor and we'd also get a clearer picture of the statistics of breed health. That being said, it wouldn't be a bad idea for there to be OFA certified vets or vet clinics either to ensure that the staff is submitting correctly positioned films. Most pet only oriented clinics may do just a very small handful a year, so quality control is important.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> OFA needs to have a system like PennHip where if you commit to taking the dog in, they MUST be submitted BY THE VET, not by the owner. This would take out the shopping around factor and we'd also get a clearer picture of the statistics of breed health. That being said, it wouldn't be a bad idea for there to be OFA certified vets or vet clinics either to ensure that the staff is submitting correctly positioned films. Most pet only oriented clinics may do just a very small handful a year, so quality control is important.


so what happens if the owner just wants to Xray the dog ?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

For what purpose?


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> For what purpose?


Well, as you knowin my case it was opportunity. laceration, dog needed to be put under to close the wound but she was too young for an actual ofa rating but I had it done anyway just to see what was there.


----------



## Betsie Janson (Jan 2, 2012)

I always go to a radiologist, but I have that luxury of working with some of the best. Any Vet or Radiologist with good ethics will not let owners submit the paperwork. Our policy is to submit the rads and paperwork, as well as have certified radiologists and rad techs work solely on the case. We also do lots of ID verification as well. It isn't fool proof, but it is a start.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> For what purpose?


To show the dog's hip joints.


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I unfortunately learned the hard way to verify everything. 

My first two dogs I purchased all went smoothly. I had just gotten involved in Schutzhund and my training director and boss at the time told me I should get a better dog than my current Rottweiler and offered to sell me a SchH3 Malinois. He said the dog was 4 years old, v-rated in all the phases and would be a great dog to take me to regionals and nationals, and that he just had some issues with his last handler in the tracking.

So I started a payment plan because I was a broke college student working at a kennel and decided to take him and enter him in a trial. He stalled on giving me the scorebook and papers for the dog until the very last minute at which point I saw the scores for myself. The dog was V-rated as a Schh1 .... failed SchH3 multiple times and was RUN twice at big trials, one of which times he was run BY THE JUDGE in the protection phase. Oh yeah, and the dog was actually 7 YEARS OLD, not 4 years old. And if all that wasn't bad enough, I found out the old handler had ABANDON the dog on his property along with some other dogs when she left. 

I ended up trailing the dog twice and was so pissed off about the situation and trying to make the dog into something he would never be that I put him in a really nice pet home where he's doing great at 13 years old! So that was a pretty big lesson to verify information.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Betsie Janson said:


> Any Vet or Radiologist with good ethics will not let owners submit the paperwork.


So if vets that do this are unethical, is OFA also unethical? They are the ones that accept them from owners. 

BTW, I do believe that OFA is unethical.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> To show the dog's hip joints.


Well yes. Obviously.  But be more specific.

People with pet dogs don't tend to care enough "just to look." But even if someone has a working/performance prospect that they "have no intentions of breeding" (*wink wink nudge nudge*), I'm going to highly recommend them to submit them to OFA anyways because my opinion as a general practitioner is not the same as 3 board certified radiologists. Plus it's like $40, which is pretty darn cheap to get the opinion of 3 specialists.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Your perspective perhaps is a bit skewed. I have x rayed my last 4 pets, all but the youngest were x rayed extensively and for that exact reason. I wanted to know what I had before me. This information has always been fed back to the breeder as a courtesy.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No, it's really not. I asked two busy but pet-oriented practices that I worked with in vet school how many OFAs they do and both said less than 5 a year. People without working or performance dogs are generally just not as interested in this unless they or their vet notices there is a problem. I have yet to have anyone who is not a working/performance person in my own practice for the last year ask me where they should go for survey hip radiographs. It's just not on their radar.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sure I get that. I'm just offering you a different perspective from someone who does something different from what was stated. When I was into DDB many of my friends x rayed their pets. Not as extensively as I do but hips at minimum were done.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Trust me, the working/performance people in my practice are my "other perspective."


----------



## Betsie Janson (Jan 2, 2012)

Christopher Smith said:


> So if vets that do this are unethical, is OFA also unethical? They are the ones that accept them from owners.
> 
> BTW, I do believe that OFA is unethical.


That's not what I said, I would never call anyone unethical for releasing radiographs and endorsed paperwork to a client. My main point was usually board certified radiologists are very careful to not harm their reputations, and try to remove as much "error" risk as possible when submitting any kind of paperwork. It's just good policy. Private practices can have different policies, based upon what they deem right. 
Like I said, it is not fool proof. There are always ways around laws and rules. People will always find a way to cheat the system. Do I think submissions should be more stringent? Yes. Will it happen? Probably not. 

Personally, I health test for my own purposes.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

> Any Vet or Radiologist with good ethics will not let owners submit the paperwork.





Betsie Janson said:


> That's not what I said, I would never call anyone unethical for releasing radiographs and endorsed paperwork to a client.


Ahhh...yyyeah ....Ok. Damn public schools screwed me again! :lol:


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren.

I was asking if you are saying that if someone came into a vets office and said they wanted xrays done, meaning "OFA style" xrays, that the vet should make them submit them to the OFA, that it should be mandatory.

What if the people do not want to submit them to OFA?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I verify everything and send puppies home with copies of all certificates on my breeding pair. As for the wink, wink, nudge, nudge working/performing person with no intention to breed, they do exist. We've certainly x-rayed ours that were never bred for performance information and for the breeder and I have friends that have done the same. The vets have generally sent in the OFA paperwork and films on my dogs. I don't think the whole pennhip certifying thing is worth the increased prices it will pay. People seem to seek out those that take good x-rays and have the reputation for it. As someone said, there will always be cheaters. I think on an older dog, David's way is probably safest. 

T


----------



## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

I would generally think that the more somebody gets involved with dogsports the more information they will tend to seek. For example, I bought my female (who just got her FR1) as a highly active pet. We happened upon training for french ring amd everything else later. However her breeder states that all breeding dogs get OFA etc... While my pups parents had xrays, many subsequent breedings do not (or at least that i could find on the OFA site). A quick search reveals otherwise. Somebody can "say" they've had X-rays done, but who did them, how many vets did other ones that were not "good" or "excellent". I'm sure there is lots of shopping around. Going forward most people on this forum who are looking for a dog will be able to avoid the wool being pulled over their eyes by due diligence. Knowing what I know today, I wouldnt have even considered that kennel for a working Malinois, because saying that kennel produces working Mals (and not show Mals) is like me saying I'm English (I'm a 3rd or 4th generation Canadian)....

Same kinda goes for my pups father... The pup is a great dog and we love him and love working with him, but if I had done more research into what traits the lines really have, instead of looking at the titles and looks, I may not have bought him as he is a harder and less controllable dog than what we were expecting or experienced to deal with. But hey he's a hell of a good teacher for us, and we are learning a ton with him!!

I'd love to get my next Mal from Europe, but I'm scared as hell to get a pup that they feel is an easy sell to North America... I've heard of some interesting stories.
But this whole dog thing is a bit of trial and error to a certain extent. In the end, it's up to us to do our due diligence and homework, otherwise you leave yourself open to being taken advantage of.


----------



## Jesus Alvarez (Feb 6, 2009)

I've heard of people taking their dog to several different vets until they found the "right" one so the dogs xrays could get a passing score. Not to mention that some the pedigrees aren't really what they say they are. Best thing to do is don't believe the hype. Do your homework and talk to people from those that have dealt with the breeder in the past. Shady people have sketchy business practices. There are those that are honest and have integrity. They're just hard to find.

As far as getting a dog from EU, I don't think it's much different then what you would look for here; deal only with a reputable breeder/person, get a referral from someone who already has a dog from them or a personal relationship. Overall, my experiences with EU dog breeders has been much better than with most of the ones I've dealt with here.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

One of my pet peeves is the breeder that says they don't have HD when they haven't checked every puppy. Or I just had a breeder tell me one litter had all excellent or good. Um, have you checked the OFA website? One was fair and three, or half the litter, werent xrayed. They might all have beautiful hips but I'm going to doubt everything else that person says about the pups they produce now. 

Laura


----------



## Betsie Janson (Jan 2, 2012)

Christopher Smith said:


> Ahhh...yyyeah ....Ok. Damn public schools screwed me again! :lol:


:lol:


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> One of my pet peeves is the breeder that says they don't have HD when they haven't checked every puppy. Or I just had a breeder tell me one litter had all excellent or good. Um, have you checked the OFA website? One was fair and three, or half the litter, werent xrayed. They might all have beautiful hips but I'm going to doubt everything else that person says about the pups they produce now.
> 
> Laura


Yes, there are tons of kennels that have never produced an HD dog... ](*,)](*,)


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> One of my pet peeves is the breeder that says they don't have HD when they haven't checked every puppy. Or I just had a breeder tell me one litter had all excellent or good. Um, have you checked the OFA website? One was fair and three, or half the litter, werent xrayed. They might all have beautiful hips but I'm going to doubt everything else that person says about the pups they produce now.
> Laura


 How do you check each puppy for HD?

I think part of the problem is with FAT puppies and puppies that are allowed to put excess wear on the shoulder joints. Keeping them thin and watching the activity just might help/ OFA prelims are ok in my book. 

How do you control the genetics IF something shows up from way back in the lines. No breed or litter is 100% or EX in rating.


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I read an article last year about OFA and Penn Hip in the Dog World Magazine. It stated that there was a study done on just over 400 dogs that were OFA excellent or good. Of those in the study approximately 40% failed Penn Hip and even a larger percentage of their offspring failed OFA and Penn Hipp. It was a very interesting article. If I can locate the article I will post it word for word.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> How do you check each puppy for HD?
> 
> I think part of the problem is with FAT puppies and puppies that are allowed to put excess wear on the shoulder joints. Keeping them thin and watching the activity just might help/ OFA prelims are ok in my book.
> 
> How do you control the genetics IF something shows up from way back in the lines. No breed or litter is 100% or EX in rating.


Howard,
Plenty of breeders claim to have never produced HD in their dogs, or even state the lines are 100% HD free....

this is NOT a true statement, they should say never produced any "known" HD... 

you can check each puppy pretty easily... xray them when they get a little older, or get owners to xray them....unless every puppy/dog produced is xrayed, saying that the kennel never produced HD is basically a lie, because they do not know what they have produced unless every dog produced has been xrayed...


----------



## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Howard,
> Plenty of breeders claim to have never produced HD in their dogs, or even state the lines are 100% HD free....
> 
> this is NOT a true statement, they should say never produced any "known" HD...
> ...


There are some (not many, but some) breeders out there that require all puppy buyers to have hips and elbows OFA'd at the appropriate age.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> There are some (not many, but some) breeders out there that require all puppy buyers to have hips and elbows OFA'd at the appropriate age.


Yep, and others offer a rebate when it is done...

that is a rarity though...obviously..


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Yep, and others offer a rebate when it is done...
> 
> that is a rarity though...obviously..


And even then getting all pup buyers to actually do it is difficult. I've offered a rebate for years, approximately half the cost of doing the test, I think 1 or 2 people have actually taken me up on it? More have done x-rays and just not contacted me about the rebate, but it sure hasn't seemed to have an effect in terms of getting people to do x-rays.

A breeder can try to require x-rays be done, but really, how are you going to enforce that? Are you going to show up on someone's doorsteps with the police to try to take their dog, because they didn't x-ray? After going through the courts of course, trying to get a court order allowing you to take the dog.

The best you can do IMO is try to educate people on why it's important they do the health checks, give them some incentives, then hope for the best.


----------



## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

idk about actual films, but in order to submit a digital radiograph image, the submitting clinic has to fill out an application to become a registered OFA clinic, including an email address. the OFA then verifies the clinic information and will only accept images emailed from the clinic address on record (and it takes FOREVERRRR for them to do it, so better warn the client ahead of time lol). the actual paperwork can be submitted either by email or fax, and I think it has to come from the clinic as well, although I'm not as sure about that. It sounds like they are much more stringent about digital images than they were with hardcopy films, although i guess that with the advent of photoshop, that's kinda necessary  that said, they still dont require any instruction on proper positioning of radiographs like PennHip does, so this might improve the veracity of the rating, but not the quality of the films


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Amber Scott said:


> idk about actual films, but in order to submit a digital radiograph image, the submitting clinic has to fill out an application to become a registered OFA clinic, including an email address. the OFA then verifies the clinic information and will only accept images emailed from the clinic address on record (and it takes FOREVERRRR for them to do it, so better warn the client ahead of time lol). the actual paperwork can be submitted either by email or fax, and I think it has to come from the clinic as well, although I'm not as sure about that. It sounds like they are much more stringent about digital images than they were with hardcopy films, although i guess that with the advent of photoshop, that's kinda necessary  that said, they still dont require any instruction on proper positioning of radiographs like PennHip does, so this might improve the veracity of the rating, but not the quality of the films


still doesnt mean it is necessarily the correct dog.. to a conspiracy theorist...

Kadi. I know exactly what you mean. I offered rebate before that was $250.00 still only a few people xrayed.


----------

