# Teaching Sali an object guard



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok so I decided to teach Sali an object guard just for shits and giggles mostly as there is no object guard in either herding or IPO.
As usual it will all seem chaotic until it isn't anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU5v2lq8fDQ


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

she's a beautiful dog


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks Catherine!

Anyway next vid, 'Object guard' stuff comes later in the vid. first part of the vid I am extending Sali's bark.

For people wondering why the first vid is so chaotic, it is because I don't wan't her to be 'sticky' to the object or the bite. There is chicken turds everywhere for added distractionness  Anyway here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhSVQiogdw


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good start but stand closer to the "spot" till he can go there on one command. The need for a second command only teaches the dog he can refuse the first. ;-)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

second vid with irrelevant bit removed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GkQaGeG3NE


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Matt what are you trying to teach your dog?I mean what kind of object guard?KNPV sryle or French or Belgium Ring?
Or your own style?
Why don't you want your dog to become sticky to the object?
No criticism i would just like to know.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

good question Jack, one I shall mull over while I go shopping and post when I get back.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Is object guard ever used in police or military situations or is it known strictly as a sport exercise to help evaluate the dog.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok it's purely for shits and giggles so my own I spose. Maybe I will find out the rules for one of the sports. Sali will never make a successful sports dog though so it will still be for fun.
My plan is for her to search for the object first, then bark to alert me, then I will randomly alternate between me and a decoy going to find her. Obv the point will be to nail the decoy and let me pick the object up but I will train it so that she doesn't nail the decoy unless either he gets too close/moves aggressively towards her/ tries to take the object.

Anyway progress vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFaZaNNF5R4&feature=youtu.be


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Matt,imo Sali spends way too much time away from the object.She should be rewarded for going to and staying on the object.She should also not be alowed to bite when she comes toward you,away from the object.She should stay on the object when you let het bite,you reach for her and not the other way around.In KNPV you will send your dog towards the object wich is hidden in the woods 100 meters away.
The primary urge must be to go find the object and continue to bark until you have found her by using your ears to locate the dog.So if the dog does not keep barking you fail.
In French ring the approach is different as the object is always in sight.
Either way the dog should be rewarded for staying with the object and not just having to touch it to get a bite.
Also In KNPV the same excersize is done with the decoy being the object.
I always enjoyed teaching the object in both sports.
In French ring it is nice to watch the decoy try to outplay the dog and vice versa,in KNPV the public is not able to see the event at all.
Of course you are not bound by any rules because you are doing it just for fun but if you want Sali to go find the object you should reduce the biting by about 99% for now.Do not show the toy at all and just try to get her to guard the object.
Have fun.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

cool, thanks


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

regardless of his overall OG plan, what Matt is doing in the last vid is rewarding his dog for going to and touching the placed object. 
- iow : a touch -- a reward bite

- i could be wrong, but it looks as if the dog is confused sometimes between the command to bark and the command to go to a place

fwiw, Michael Ellis uses the term "sticky" ...

in competition forms of object guarding, the dog must "stick" on/over the object it is guarding and engage, on its own and without a command from the handler, when the decoy gets too close, and release the bite and return to the object it is guarding. never seen the KNPV version but makes sense that the dog would have to bark so the handler can locate the dog more easily.

in KNPV is the bark just a signal or is it also a measure of the aggressiveness/possessiveness of the dog ?

i would not consider it an easy behavior to train since it requires the dog to evaluate the "threat" and make the decision to engage without the handler telling it what to do, and then to allow the handler to claim the object with no further "guarding" 

it seems to me a possessive dog with good bite work foundation will learn faster than one without these foundations


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the reply.
Yes good thing sali is possesive then! lol
I will do a vid later where she is actively guarding the object with barking- no bites.
This will all come together I assure you, just like my chaotic heeling worked.
The main aim for me is to train this with no use of correction at all.

Rick- she is deffo getting the barking confused but it will come good


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Matt what are you trying to teach your dog?I mean what kind of object guard?KNPV sryle or French or Belgium Ring?
> Or your own style?
> Why don't you want your dog to become sticky to the object?
> No criticism i would just like to know.


I also thought "sticky" to the object was the object of the exercise.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Because I want to have balance between the two. To want to go bite equally with wanting to stay on the object. I will make it so that if the decoy comes within a certain distance, havn't decided how far yet, she will leave the object to bite.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Our Swiss National Schutzhund Trials used to include a "Guarding the object" discipline.

We started the young dog off with a large bone, his handler's jacket, etc.

We (we all had to join in) approached the dog, tentatively, very often sidewards. As soon as the dog gave the slightest growl, we retreated, then we went in nearer, and nearer but without attempting to remove the object. We circled the dog, watching for his reactions.

At the trial itself, the judge marches up to the dog, circles him, comes back to a three metre mark and move in more closely. The judge has then to move in so closely that he can remove the object or not!!

This exercise was elimanated from our Swiss National Trials due to bite accidents during training and due to some idiotic handlers testing their dogs by placing their wives handbags on their way to Sunday Church


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Our Swiss National Schutzhund Trials used to include a "Guarding the object" discipline.
> 
> This exercise was elimanated from our Swiss National Trials due to bite accidents during training and due to some idiotic handlers testing their dogs by placing their wives handbags on their way to Sunday Church


you have mentioned this before and i wasn't sure you were serious but that is FUNNY! i know it's wrong, but i think i would have laughed until it hurt to see that outside a church, snarling and frothing dogs guarding handbags...that would have been awesome!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> Is object guard ever used in police or military situations or is it known strictly as a sport exercise to help evaluate the dog.


everyday,,, the object is called the "suspect"


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

More:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22Y87bySbM&feature=youtu.be


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> More:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22Y87bySbM&feature=youtu.be


well hes got the stand on the object and bark part down !!!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Looks good Matt. I like what I see in how she is learning.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks Peoples, I'm may be introducing the decoy on friday, so I'll get that on vid.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

You make it sound so easy.Why don't you do some u toobing and look at the attitude the KNPV dogs have toward the object.
Like Simon and Garfunkel said,Slow down you move too fast.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah I have watched some youtube vids of KNPV dogs. I'll make the vid and we will see. Sali Ramps up massively when the decoy is involved, she is just ****ing about here, she will probably get very sticky to the decoy though but that is gonna happen no matter how much foundation I put in. She is called "Clampy" cos once she gets hold she just does not wanna let go no matter what. Her breeders teenage daughter called her that from before 7 weeks, lol. 
How the **** I am going to do that bit without correction is gonna be a laugh, any suggestions?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Yeah I have watched some youtube vids of KNPV dogs. I'll make the vid and we will see. Sali Ramps up massively when the decoy is involved, she is just ****ing about here, she will probably get very sticky to the decoy though but that is gonna happen no matter how much foundation I put in. She is called "Clampy" cos once she gets hold she just does not wanna let go no matter what. Her breeders teenage daughter called her that from before 7 weeks, lol.
> How the **** I am going to do that bit without correction is gonna be a laugh, any suggestions?[/QUOTE\
> 
> you can do it without correction,,, I have one out here now that is like that .. and it can be frustrating to say the least ,,,, we use a sliding line on stuff like this... instead of using a fixed tie back we rig it up where it will slide .. I will try to get some pics for you of the setup.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Excelent, thanks dude


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Excelent, thanks dude












this pic shows how it works ... the helper is off to right controlling the line. It takes some coordination between you and the helper. There are holes in the pole that allow you to change the angle of the line as well.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Well, tested her touch now, she has got the picture alot better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQxA91YIBd4&list=UUQojVhZh0SbM3mVJBANazcA&index=3


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Why does a moderator need to approve my posting?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Testing her touch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQxA91YIBd4&list=UUQojVhZh0SbM3mVJBANazcA&index=3


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Why does a moderator need to approve my posting?



What did we miss? 

BTW, nice work on the "testing the touch" video.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thats what we missed, you can see it Bob?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't understand either. There are no restrictions or mod stuff on Matt. Weird.

Sending you a PM, Matt.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The post was just a vid update on sali's progress basically


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Well, tested her touch now, she has got the picture alot better.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQxA91YIBd4&list=UUQojVhZh0SbM3mVJBANazcA&index=3


Can others see it now (not just mods)?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

still not visible


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> still not visible


But you can see my post directly above? Does MY post include the link to your video?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I see the touch video clear as a bell when I click on your link.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> But you can see my post directly above? Does MY post include the link to your video?


Yes it does Connie, weird eh


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Yes it does Connie, weird eh


Matt, that's been fixed. Your post shows now (to everyone).



Thank you, Yung! 

I dug around until I found weird "moderated" icon, and then emailed Yung, who cleared it.



So thank you, Matt, for pointing this out. Now I know exactly what to look for even if no one brings up a posted youtube link that doesn't show in the thread. 

It not at all frequent, BTW.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Weird and thank you very much Connie, you're a star!


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