# How about bad owners



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I figure we may as well cover the whole dog world here. Max Orsi, pointed out tha there isn't much a good trainer/handler can do when the actual owner of the dogs spend 99.9% of the time screwing them up. I agree 100%. My first question to prospective buyers is to tell me what they think of extended crating. They think about it for a minute and recall all the good things they have heard about it from the hobby breeding world and many come off in full agreement of it. Mind you, this is after walking around looking at close to 2 acres of dogs running loose in big yards. If they think that is the way to raise em, I try to be polite in my own way, and tell them to go find a hobby breeder and get a dog from them because that is what most are bred for.
Surprisingly, the rest seem to be pretty staunchly against extended crating. I take them around to the yards and we stand at the gate while I call the puppies over....and they do come a running. All the while I give them the run down on the difference between socializing and conditioning. I explain to them what they are looking at with multiple adults and sibs in the same yard, is actually "socializing." What they see taking place when the pups are raised in the house is conditioning. I use every tool in my box to educate folks before they leave. Yet, it is hard to weed em all out because of all the years of brainwashing. There is a lot of people out there that have no business owning a good dog.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I have had many dogs that would rather be in the house in large crates than out in the kennel. Depends on what the dog is use to.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

You seem pretty pissed lately. I can imagine it is tough to be working on a line of dogs you like and then trying to make sure you find homes you feel deserving of your dogs.

There must be some owners and trainers that have done you proud with your pups? Maybe even a few that do things differently than you would? Maybe not...

On the crating issue... my current dog lives indoors at home and no longer needs a crate and has free run of the house. However, the reality of my job is that a dog will spend long hours in a crate or a wood box the size of a crate in his work environment.

My next dog will alternate time in a crate/box/vehicle during the day, with time in an outdoor kennel by himself at night, as he/she will be an outdoor dog.

Any breeder that is not okay with this is free to tell me so and not sell me a dog. Totally their right!

I beleive that my lifestyle, work, and time spent with my dog is a good gig for a dog though! 

I am against people who let their dog's rot in a crate because they can't/won't train and manage them. Same goes for a dog rotting in a slightly larger area in an outdoor kennel. Actaully, same goes for many pets I know that live indoors crate free, but spend long hrs at home alone and then are ignored and never worked or excersised when their people ARE home.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I have had many dogs that would rather be in the house in large crates than out in the kennel. Depends on what the dog is use to.


Conditioned to, or used to...same thing.

I personally cant imagine a dog that would rather be in a crate, mine is either loose in the house or loose in the fenced in yard when we aren't out doing other things.

But, I don't own a high level competition dog so that might be why.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Conditioned to, or used to...same thing.
> 
> I personally cant imagine a dog that would rather be in a crate, mine is either loose in the house or loose in the fenced in yard when we aren't out doing other things.
> 
> But, I don't own a high level competition dog so that might be why.


 
Well when you let them out in the yard and they run around for a while, roll in the Grass, sniff, piss and crap, then stand at the door waiting to come in and run straight into their crates I don't know what to call it?

I have had several , non high competition level dogs just fine with this arangement.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Most of the people I know who are vehemently anti-crate, wouldn't be able to handle a high octane working dog. But that's OK, because they are for the most part also vehemently against the evils of breeding, and would rather rescue some poor mutt. I doubt you'd see many of them. :lol:

Obviously you do what works best for yourself and your dogs. 

I haven't yet had a dog whom I didn't have to crate at some point!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually Jennifer, I am in a great mood for me and I am haveing fun with this. The first post I read this morning was about poor breeders....again. I smiled quietly and then we had bad trainers. Max said it was the owners so here we are. Gotta love it.
Personally, I really don't raise the puos in this environment sdo they can experience so many things ....just to spend there puppy hood in a crate....stagnating....losing the real capacity to think. The 8 mo old I mentioned, I leave him in the house alone all the time. I have a lage trach bag buy the door he can get into that usually has meat scraps and stuff in it. I can leave with a hot dog on a plate on the coffee table and it will be there when I get back. They are taught how to behave in the house.
Out of all the bad breeder threads, you have to realise that most of the judging comes from the dog owner. Not other breeders. Trainers also have some of the opinions. I say this is a fair thread concerning dog ownwers. Especially considering the effort many breeders put into the pups in the short time they have them. Since I have no idea what the buyer is going to be looking for, I makes sure they are started in the water and are proficient swimmer at 7 weeks, I make sure the sit and down at 6-7 weeks. I make sure they have the temperament they should have. All this and what do people do when the take them home regardless of what was promised? Put them in a crate. I tell them to do this and this and this in that order. They talk to an all possy trainer at Pet Smart and do it the way they say and then ask me why the dog isn't progressing very fast.
In the end, I guess we can all bitch about how the next guy is the weak link. 
But I am in a great mood in spite of it all......just keeping things balanced.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> Most of the people I know who are vehemently anti-crate, wouldn't be able to handle a high octane working dog.


I think you were talking to Kyle, but I have to say that a crate with what you call a high octane dog is just a form of restraint and has nothing to do training of any form.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Well now, I have a glass of Kentucky's finest sourmash and I see some rationalizing on the lost. I have two dogs in the house right now. One is 4 the other 8 mo. I am not really sure how they got to this point because never has ever been crated even once. Jenniofer said crating was a requirement for what she does withn the dogs so she crates them some. Mine require crating when we go hunting. They required grating to go back east for the Nationals. They did fine and those are the only times they have ever been crated. What's with that. Yes, I have had a couple I wouldn't exactly leave in the house but I put them in the yard. I can't imagine crating any of them and going to work.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Well when you let them out in the yard and they run around for a while, roll in the Grass, sniff, piss and crap, then stand at the door waiting to come in and run straight into their crates I don't know what to call it?
> 
> I have had several , non high competition level dogs just fine with this arangement.


They call it institutionalized Kyle....normally in reference to convicts always going back to prison. They do it simply because it is the only life they know so that is where they are most comfortable.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think you were talking to Kyle, but I have to say that a crate with what you call a high octane dog is just a form of restraint and has nothing to do training of any form.


Well any decent dog with a job be it MWD, PSD, SAR, Demo, Sport etc.... Needs to be able to spend a significant time in a crate on their job often. Of course it doesn't have anything to do with training, other than being OK in the crate. Just because a dog is "High Octane" doesn't mean it cant be OK with being crated a lot.

There are other reasons people might want to condition their dogs to being in a crate for longer periods of time but I will let you think about that one.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> They call it institutionalized Kyle....normally in reference to convicts always going back to prison. They do it simply because it is the only life they know so that is where they are most comfortable.


I don't think you can compare the Human Condition to a K9. Believe it or not People are much more complex....:-D

They have a Choice and Choose to stay out longer at times depending on things they decide on.

Just because a dog has Room to Roam doesn't mean he/she is any better off.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually Jennifer, I am in a great mood for me and I am haveing fun with this. The first post I read this morning was about poor breeders....again. I smiled quietly and then we had bad trainers. Max said it was the owners so here we are. Gotta love it.
> Personally, I really don't raise the puos in this environment sdo they can experience so many things ....just to spend there puppy hood in a crate....stagnating....losing the real capacity to think. The 8 mo old I mentioned, I leave him in the house alone all the time. I have a lage trach bag buy the door he can get into that usually has meat scraps and stuff in it. I can leave with a hot dog on a plate on the coffee table and it will be there when I get back. They are taught how to behave in the house.
> Out of all the bad breeder threads, you have to realise that most of the judging comes from the dog owner. Not other breeders. Trainers also have some of the opinions. I say this is a fair thread concerning dog ownwers. Especially considering the effort many breeders put into the pups in the short time they have them. Since I have no idea what the buyer is going to be looking for, I makes sure they are started in the water and are proficient swimmer at 7 weeks, I make sure the sit and down at 6-7 weeks. I make sure they have the temperament they should have. All this and what do people do when the take them home regardless of what was promised? Put them in a crate. I tell them to do this and this and this in that order. They talk to an all possy trainer at Pet Smart and do it the way they say and then ask me why the dog isn't progressing very fast.
> In the end, I guess we can all bitch about how the next guy is the weak link.
> But I am in a great mood in spite of it all......just keeping things balanced.


 
Don, I think you bring up some grat points in this post. All 3 of the dogs I currently own know that the rules are different in the house. While I never have all 3 inside at once they do all know that the rules inside are different from the rules outside. And from what I've seen it is usually the owners or buyers that criticize breeders, rarely other breeders. I'm sure the reasons for that will be speculated on as this thread goes on. All of my dogs are usually crated t some poiint, but not necessarily everyday. I'm in a unique situation too. My wife is a stay-at-home mom and we homeschool our kids so the dogs have alot of interaction with the family even when I'm at work. Crates and kennels are used for when we are all our of the house at once. Other than that there's usually one in the house and 2 in the yard. None of my dogs mind going in the kennels or crates when it's time though. Unfortunately for the breedrs out there who are breeding really good dogs, such a large part of how the pup turns out is dependent on the person that buys it, which I'm sure has got to be frustrating for those breeders.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> There are other reasons people might want to condition their dogs to being in a crate for longer periods of time but I will let you think about that one.


I don't care if other people crate their dogs for life, I just have never had any reason to do so.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Fewff....I will stop worrying about your mental status then 

Like I said in my first post, I think it would be difficult to be a breeder and have to worry about people doing right by your pups.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Adam, Kyle Jennifer and all, just so you know, I am not being critical. And you will be glad to know, there are a lot opf people that think I am being inhumane because I have the dogs in huge yards with trees and seasonal creeks etc. The pictures I put up of the pups in the snow......you would be absolutely shocked at how many think that is inhumane while they go off to work with their dogs locked down in travel crates for hours. It is hard to believe but it is true.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Fewff....I will stop worrying about your mental status then
> 
> Like I said in my first post, I think it would be difficult to be a breeder and have to worry about people doing right by your pups.


Please don't stop worrying about that Jennifer, I worry myself most the time......as does everyone that knows me. LOL.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

you would be absolutely shocked at how many think that is inhumane while they go off to work with their dogs locked down in travel crates for hours. It is hard to believe but it is true.[/quote said:


> Not shocked at all, isn't that what you are Implying?
> 
> BTW, travel crates are too small IMO....:razz:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> You seem pretty pissed lately.


I noticed a strange change in tone as well with his posts lately and wondered what it was about. Anyway Don, what I will offer doesn't really answer your question but I guess this discussion can come from two directions and either work in your favor or against it. I had a GSD breeder tell me that "some GSD breeders won't sell you a dog if they knew how much you exercised your dogs." I thought well, that works out pretty well because I don't have any interest in getting a GSD. I also remember very strong opposition from some of my European friends (specifically the Dutch and I have no idea why that was) when they found out I worked my DDB in SchH. Some felt so strongly about it that they openly stated they would not sell to me for that reason alone. I went through this as well with vaccines and raw feeding way before either were understood as they are today. Some apparently saw raw feeding and a modified vaccination protocol as irresponsible and careless.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> There are other reasons people might want to condition their dogs to being in a crate for longer periods of time but I will let you think about that one.


Sure, and here's one example. To get to my cabin in the winter, I have for years transported my dogs in a covered crate connected to a freight sled which is hauled 30 miles . My cabin is inaccessible by road so getting the dogs there any other way is not an option. So they either are adapted accordingly or simply don't go. The only time the latter was an option was when I had an injured dog who wasn't fit for that type of travel.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think you were talking to Kyle, but I have to say that a crate with what you call a high octane dog is just a form of restraint and has nothing to do training of any form.


No, wasn't talking to Kyle or anyone in particular, just a general response to Don. Of course a crate is restraint. I am not saying anything to the contrary. Some people use crates precisely because that way they don't have to teach any house manners and inhibit the working pup's drives... I don't, but I have heard this explained many times. 

I had a dear friend (anti-crate, anti-breeder mindset) offer to care for my dogs when I was really sick recently, and he almost had a fit when I explained that the only way he could do that would be to keep them leashed or crated 100% of the time. The dogs wouldn't listen to him, they'd eat his cats, mice, and birds, and would be trying to pull rank on each other, and biting him when he tried to intervene. Some people just can't do it. I can't leave my dogs running free all the time either, I crate some when I am gone. Whatever works.

Here is a recent pic of some of my high octane monsters in the house. 
(I'll admit, maybe they're not as high-octane as some other dogs on here...:lol


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

My 12 month old D'Only is inside about 10% of the time and that's after he's tired. I do restrict my dogs to the mud/laundry room as it's cooler in there in the winter as the window is left open and it keeps the house in better shape. I heat with a wood stove and it can become very toasty in the rest of the houseI don't want my young dogs roaming the house as I'm sure they would find the cow hides on the floor in the living room tasty treats and also the nails are hard on the wood flooring there. 

I believe ideally young animals (dogs, horses, etc..) need room to run to develop properly so 90+% of the time my dogs are outside. In SoCal where I live the weather is great most of the year so outside is the best place for all of us. As adults, racehorses once in training are stabled in stalls, but no breeder/trainer in their right mind would ever consider raising babies in anything other than open fields so they can develop correctly. 

My old female mal "Orly" spends a lot of time in the house these days as she likes her bed. She's never crated with the door shut. She knows to stay in the mud room and not roam the house.

I have never practiced crating the dogs for long periods in preparation for crating them for long periods. I do however from puppy hood have crates with doors removed in their puppy pens for them to sleep in, which makes them consider it as their den/home. When we do transport them or put them in a crate they have a meaty bone or something to occupy them. 

Whenever I have needed to crate dogs (seminars, training, travel) the dogs seem to adapt well without prep. I guess it's like me when I have to sit on a 10+ hour flight to Europe..we cope with it unless we are mentally unstable..


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Sure, and here's one example. To get to my cabin in the winter, I have for years transported my dogs in a covered crate connected to a freight sled which is hauled 30 miles . My cabin is inaccessible by road so getting the dogs there any other way is not an option. So they either are adapted accordingly or simply don't go. The only time the latter was an option was when I had an injured dog who wasn't fit for that type of travel.


You live in Alaska and have to transport your dogs by a covered sled :lol:

I can't imagine the razzing you must get up there.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> No, wasn't talking to Kyle or anyone in particular, just a general response to Don. Of course a crate is restraint. I am not saying anything to the contrary. Some people use crates precisely because that way they don't have to teach any house manners and inhibit the working pup's drives... I don't, but I have heard this explained many times.
> 
> I had a dear friend (anti-crate, anti-breeder mindset) offer to care for my dogs when I was really sick recently, and he almost had a fit when I explained that the only way he could do that would be to keep them leashed or crated 100% of the time. The dogs wouldn't listen to him, they'd eat his cats, mice, and birds, and would be trying to pull rank on each other, and biting him when he tried to intervene. Some people just can't do it. I can't leave my dogs running free all the time either, I crate some when I am gone. Whatever works.
> 
> ...


Darn Anna, I see what you mean. The monsters are literally bouncing off the walls.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You live in Alaska and have to transport your dogs by a covered sled :lol:
> 
> I can't imagine the razzing you must get up there.


I might if it weren't so common for people to do in this situation.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I don’t think Don is talking about crating for safe transportation. And how much conditioning to the crate does it take to get a dog conditioned for a long stint? I wouldn’t think all too much. My dog has spent some time in a crate for some traveling, he has not been in one for about a year, but I could stick him in one anytime for a long stint. I just wouldn’t feed him for a day before and limit his water several hours before.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> I might if it weren't so common for people to do in this situation.


It just seemed funny to me, I've been involved in the Percy and the Quest in the past in a support capacity and I couldn't resist.

I've seen ACD's that would ride on a skidoo track brake for 30 miles.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"but I could stick him in one anytime for a long stint. I just wouldn’t feed him for a day before and limit his water several hours before."

What does food or water have to do with anything?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It has been a fun topic but, it isn't just about crates. I bet every breeder on here can relate a different incident about what they told the new ownwer and hiw it was totally disregaeded and ended up creating more than a mild problem. Here is one. I customer had a pup from me and picked up a female from rescue. The rescue dog came from a hunting guide. I told the customer there was a reason the dog was put into rescue. I expressly told him to take the female out and shoot around her to see if she was gunshy BEFORE he ever fired a gun around the two of them. A few weeks later I get a call. The customer was saying he may have screwed up because he took both dogs out and fired a high power rifle. The female headed for the hills and the pup was not far behind. Then he asks me what he should do to correct the problem. Yes, there are times I want to reach through the phone and ring a few necks. I can't recount the number of times people call after creating a situation where I told them what to do but a friend told them it wouldn't matter....now they want to know how to fix it. I know every breeder has run into this countless times.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've seen ACD's that would ride on a skidoo track brake for 30 miles.


skidoo track brake? what's that? 

Some of my friends will let their dogs ride on the sled with them. But with dogs 100+ lbs it's really not all that practical. Besides you make better time with them in tow and need not worry about temps when they're contained. Overflow is probably the only thing that can be a little concerning for the set up. Last time I took my old dog out I found her sitting in about 1.5" of slush when I let her out of the kennel. I felt pretty bad about that. :-(


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> "but I could stick him in one anytime for a long stint. I just wouldn’t feed him for a day before and limit his water several hours before."
> 
> What does food or water have to do with anything?


What are you talking about? I want him empty if he is gona be boxed up for 10 or more hours without a break. Maybe I do it more for me then him, I gag like hell if things get to messy.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> What are you talking about? I want him empty if he is gona be boxed up for 10 or more hours without a break. Maybe I do it more for me then him, I gag like hell if things get to messy.


What does your dog do if you need to Leave him/her in the House "for 10 or more hours without a break" ??? Hold it OR............


I always leave water in the crate and Feed on a Schedule, if they need to go they know when they will have the Oportunity. 10 hours is not Ideal but an adult is breaked properly should be able to hold it that long.

I have to Laugh, In Utah there is a Car Wash accross the street from the Hotel everyone stays at for Trials and Training. I have Never had to use it but have seen MANY there early in the Morning Cleaning up. Hmmmm :-k


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> skidoo track brake? what's that?


Behind the sled brake, people used to drag a chunk of snowmobile track, about 1 ft square to slow the dogs down abit going down hills etc.

Might not be used anymore.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> What does your dog do if you need to Leave him/her in the House "for 10 or more hours without a break" ??? Hold it OR............
> 
> 
> This is true, I don’t think twice about leaving them at home. I think he did 14 hours on one trip without a place to go, didn’t seem like a problem at all for him, he did get a few licks of water here and there. I don’t know if it is good or bad or if it really matters but he is really not on any schedule and skips a food day here and there. If I leave early for work and take him he eats at night, if I leave him home my wife will typically feed him with the greyhound sooner or later.
> ...


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

> I noticed a strange change in tone as well with his posts lately and wondered what it was about.


No way:-k.....I am cautious of his posts now, he likes to mess with my head.....there is nothing different with him at all..... 

I use the indoor/outdoor kennels more than I do crates, but I do crate my dogs. I have to since I travel a lot and on missions sometimes they are in them for several days. 
I do give them plenty of exercise, playtime and walks when we are traveling. 

I do something with all the dogs everyday and we also have two large runs that the dogs all spend time in each day. 

I hang water buckets in there and they also are fed in there if I am traveling or they are in the house (I feed raw and I don't want it drug around the house...yick) 

When Doug is home, they are either on dog beds in the living room or in crates....when Doug is not home they are allowed to run around a bit more.....LOL


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Both of my dogs are crated often but I also make sure they get plenty of physical and mental exercise on a daily basis. I'm pretty sure my dogs go to bed more tired than the average house pet. If I were in a different location where I was allowed to erect outdoor kennels or to build a fence that would actually be worth a darn and contain my dogs then I would gladly give them time out there as opposed to in the crate. 

I guess if I were a breeder, the fact that someone uses a crate would not deter me from letting them have a pup...but then again I am not a breeder.

I do see how the gunshot situation would be frustrating though.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Behind the sled brake, people used to drag a chunk of snowmobile track, about 1 ft square to slow the dogs down abit going down hills etc.
> 
> Might not be used anymore.


yup - still used but some are a lot fancier now. Mine is the old "low-tech" version.

Back on topic - I only rarely crate dogs in the house as most of the dogs are outdoors loose in large fenced yards with the option of kennel runs or chain-outs (now that is something that get the discussion fur flying...).
In the winter the dogs travel alot and are housed in "dog boxes" on the truck - they adapt fine to this even if they have never been crated. I think if dogs are loaded into any method of containment good and tired and glad for a snooze or a rest things go alot better for dog and human.

I am kind of like Don and don't like to see puppies constantly crated- I think they need to run around and be puppies to develop right. The puppies I am raising now are 14 weeks old and have never seen a crate - they will get to travel this winter with the adults in the dog boxes - they adapt to this pretty well and by next year will be old pros about travelling.
I have raised the occassional puppy in the house and yes a crate was necessary at times but it is the stuff that happens out of the crate that really matters.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I crate my dog when I'm gone for work(about 6 hours), I leave him loose 3 days a week in my room, bigger than a 10x10 outdoor kennel. Then when I get home, he goes out to his kennel for awhile and after that, he has free roam of the house, unless the cat is in and then he is gated in a protion of it. He did stay out a lot more when I lived in NM but I feel bad leaving him out in the weather, whether too hot or too cold. Also, he likes being inside, if I give him a choice, he'd rather be in with me, or really just with me wherever I am.


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