# Forming clubs



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you could start a new club, what would be the greatest cause for concern for you???

1, Not enough members

2, Not enough knowledge

3, Write in your own.


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

at the risk of starting something...
this month's schutzhund USA magazine had a nice article
:mrgreen:


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

My opinion:

#1 would not concern me at all - I prefer a small club of like minded individuals who's goals are at least similiar to mine. 

#2 is definitely a concern. 

#3 would be that I would not want to limit myself to a club that trains in only
one venue...be it SchH or one of the ring sports.


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## Dave Curtis (Oct 23, 2006)

Not a problem for me. I joined Lisa's group. 

http://www.midwestringsport.com/


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Lacey, I agree with that. We have some people in our club that do SchH, others training for other suit sports, and of course, me, floundering along in my ring studies  I don't have a lot of use for clubs that are very specific in one thing - or sport bashing clubs (playing innocent). I had a schutzhund trainer tell me once that my dog was going to start going into avoidance b/c I was working with Mondio and PSA style distractions while doing tug work, and that kind of stuff was 'amateurish and unnecessary.' He never did, though.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Lacey Vessell said:


> My opinion:
> 
> #1 would not concern me at all - I prefer a small club of like minded individuals who's goals are at least similiar to mine.
> 
> ...


I'm saving my keystrokes today 

Ditto


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you could start a new club, what would be the greatest cause for concern for you???
> 
> 1, Not enough members
> 
> ...



3. No good TD/decoy.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you could start a new club, what would be the greatest cause for concern for you???
> 
> 1, Not enough members
> Not a problem, better 2 or 3 motivated people with same goals then 20 member and no unity.
> ...


We´re with 5 people, Dick, Remco, Suzan, Kevin and myself.

Dick is an experienced trainer, instructor & decoy (suit aswell sleeve).

Remco is an experienced trainer & decoy (decoying for 24 yrs, 20 yrs as a national trial decoy).

Kevin is learning to be a decoy, and is learning trainingskills with a experienced bitch, his first puppy is one out of our latest litter (Balou). 

Suzan (remco´s friend) has (partly) trained 1 dog and has a puppy out of our latest litter (Tessa on breedingterms).

Me: light green trainer, helper on the field. 1 dog IPO certified, 1 dog in training KNPV


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

i think lace hit the nail on the head.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

#1 Our motto is that we will train a three legged Chi dog if you are truly dedicated to training. If you aren't willing to make at LEAST 75% of the training days, rain or shine, hot or cold, 

#2 If you truly believe in 100% motivational training, we will teach you. If not, you need to look at the other traditional clubs in this area.

#3 We train predominantly in Schutzhund but we will help you with other venues. We have members with obedience, agility, etc titles besides Schutzhund. 
We're a very close knit group but the training field is just that. You should be watching and listening the helper, handler and dog on the field. We go to dinner after all training and this is where we socialize. If you miss dinder, your missing out on great discussions and a great deal of fun bs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The ONLY thing I miss about Sch is the food afterwards, and the video. We would go through the days video and talk about all kinds of things. It was a good time, and a lot of fun.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Of course, I was trying to see why people didn't start their own clubs. I need some work on my questioning skills.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I think the biggest reason people DON'T start their own clubs is they don't want that much responcibility. They had rather go somewhere else to train and leave the hard work to others. There's nothing wrong with that. If everyone that to have their own club then a one person club could not be fun. In a group we can all have fun, right???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Of course, I was trying to see why people didn't start their own clubs. I need some work on my questioning skills.


I'll haver to ditto Jerry on that.
I'll be 62 in a couple of months and just want to have fun at this point in my life.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, what are all the responsibilities you are trying to avoid that would keep someone from starting a club???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Since, at this age, I work very hard to avoid responsibility, I don't know what they would be. Total avoidance!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Chickenshit!!!!!!! LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Chickenshit!!!!!!! LOL


Well :-k ...............YEAH! :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Thats it, as an old guy, and a mod, you should be obligated to respond in full to younger less (maybe) experienced posters. We need the vision and wisdom that comes from training dogs for 7,000,000,000 years.

HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If ya want that much vision and wisdom, I'll have to check uncle Grog's records. The're written on a cave wall in France. 
Uncle Grog didn't have any expierience with a bite suit. Didn't need it cause wolves couldn't get through all the matted hair on his body. 
JEEZE! It's getting late! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We need the vision and wisdom that comes from training dogs for 7,000,000,000 years.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Well, I've started a few clubs, and been in many more. I think the biggest problem people having with starting their own is 

1) many people don't feel they have the knowledge needed to do it
2) many people feel if they do start a club they will be put in the position of TD and they either A) don't want it B) see #1 

I ended up letting the two clubs I started (1 was kind of "co-started") just die out because I got sick and tired of doing all the work, and only hearing complaining.

Guess what folks. If you want to come out and train, great. But if you don't have knowledge, experience, or the willingness to do decoy work to bring with you, then you better be willing to bring something else to the club. Help set equipment up, or tear it down. Bring a cooler with drinks for the people who are doing the decoy work. IE GIVE something to the club, don't just think you are going to come out, offer nothing, take everyone elses work and knowledge for free, only show when it's convinent for you, come late and leave early, etc. And if your dog is marginal at best, and I'm killing myself working it, you better be extra helpful in other areas to make up for it  I've never accepted money for working someones dog, coaching them, etc. Don't want it. I do want the person I'm helping to show motivation, determination, commitment, etc to the training of their dog. And some gratitude towards the people helping them out wouldn't be out of line either.

I think my biggest peeve was the people who seemed to feel they were OWED training, for free I might add. That because they came out a few times, didn't contribute anything but sure took a lot, that gave them the right to complain if I was out of town for a trial on a weekend, and wasn't there to work their dog. 

Wow, didn't realize how bitter I sound LOL 
Now I have an informal group of people I train with, and it works great for me. I'm the member of a club for trialing, and I travel to train with them once a week. Soon to be twice. But mainly I just hook up with local friends when they want to train, and we train. Everyone helps each other, nobody expects someone else to be in charge of their training, we just help each other as needed with spotters in obed, suggestions with problems, etc.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Guess what folks. If you want to come out and train, great. But if you don't have knowledge, experience, or the willingness to do decoy work to bring with you, then you better be willing to bring something else to the club. Help set equipment up, or tear it down. Bring a cooler with drinks for the people who are doing the decoy work. IE GIVE something to the club, don't just think you are going to come out, offer nothing, take everyone elses work and knowledge for free, only show when it's convinent for you, come late and leave early, etc. And if your dog is marginal at best, and I'm killing myself working it, you better be extra helpful in other areas to make up for it  I've never accepted money for working someones dog, coaching them, etc. Don't want it. I do want the person I'm helping to show motivation, determination, commitment, etc to the training of their dog. And some gratitude towards the people helping them out wouldn't be out of line either.


That's really true...last summer, it was pretty brutally hot and our TD would work as many dogs as he could before it would get too awful, but he'd just be pouring sweat. I had no problems filling up a cooler beforehand so he could put his water bottle in there or running to the water fountain in the building (it's in front of sheriff's department) to get him some cold water. I don't typically offer to put up the blinds (they typically end up crooked or come out of the ground, hehe), but I do want to make sure that whoever is working is not going to die of heat exhaustion! I think he appreciated it, even if I did occasionally sound like Mom telling him to take a break and drink some water.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> our TD would work as many dogs as he could before it would get too awful,


This brings up another issue I've seen in clubs. The TD (or helper/decoy) works all the dogs, and either nobody offers to work their dog, or their dog is left until the end, when they are to tired to want to work it anymore. 

Sometimes there is only one decoy in a club. But if the dog will allow it, someone can always offer to handle that dog so the decoy can work it themself. It's not a perfect solution, but if there is only one decoy in the club, it may be the only solution. Usually though there are people who are capable of learning to decoy, they just don't want to. I'm seeing more clubs/groups lately being formed that are decoys only. 2 or 3 get together and start training, so they all have someone to work their dogs. And generally the group isn't open to others. Which I can understand.

Take care of your decoy/TD folks, or you just might loose him/her.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Why let the td work your dog? 
I´m used to working your dog yourself, with help from others (could be td). Td helps you/tell you what to do, but you work your dog self. If things are very complicated or dog is to strong (temporaly situation, learning phase for example) than somebody else offers some more help or hold your dog.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

We are talking about working the dog as the helper/decoy. Not doing the obedience for you with the dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

After a good nights sleep I reread this post and realized my late nigh attempts at humor did nothing to answer a good question.
Here's my thoughts on forming a club.

Aside from having qualifyed people for helper work AND a head trainer (they don't often go together).

Finding a regular place to train.

Will insurance be availible to cover the site, equiptment, helper, handler, dogs, visitors. 

Who pays for equiptment? Club or is the helper on his own?

Is somone able to build jumps, etc or is the club in a position to by what's needed?

Voting on officers can be a cluster cluck if it's done with friendships in mind and not the good of the club.

Determining dues, bylaws, etc. 
Fortunately one of our members is a lawyer and has gone more then the extra mile in helping us figure out a lot of the bs that nobody else wants to even worry about.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OH MY GOD KADI, YOU JUST DESCRIBED 4 OF THE PAST 6 YEARS FOR ME!!!!!

I so know what it is like to just give up bringing your dog, because there is no need for the dog to sit in a hot truck, as he won't be worked.

This was the case for my dog Axel, who SO deserved a brevet. Of course, I could have screwed it up for him, but he would have been good.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Well, I've started a few clubs, and been in many more. I think the biggest problem people having with starting their own is
> 
> 1) many people don't feel they have the knowledge needed to do it
> 2) many people feel if they do start a club they will be put in the position of TD and they either A) don't want it B) see #1
> ...



Hey Kadi, that reminds me...Mark said you and Brenda were organizing a group to train regularly at Chris's place. Can I join you? I just need to do a little ring training with Feist to finish his FR3 and I am now planning on doing Schutzhund with Leila (I haven't gone tracking yet but I'm going to. ) I'll bring snacks and beverages 

Lisa


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> (I haven't gone tracking yet but I'm going to. ) Lisa



THIS is the story of my life....


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

I have the best intentions...but somehow there is always something else to do. For me tracking is like walking on the moon...completely new territory. Oh and did I mention I am not the adventurious type? I am a bit of a control freak so letting the dog do what comes naturally is challenging for me. Not to mention I am also a clean freak and tracking tends to be dirty.

But, it is part of the program in SchH, isn't it? Too darn bad. I'll keep you posted on my progress 

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you are saying that tracking in Sch is natural??? LOL It is not, so you can still keep your control freak on!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So you are saying that tracking in Sch is natural??? LOL It is not, so you can still keep your control freak on!


Nothing natural about Sch tracking although I had a pretty good day with mine. :smile: :smile: Still boring though! :lol: :lol:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Not so guys. Look at it. Takes a LOT of discipline for both you and the dog. How could this be boring? To train a dog to do something that is NOT the natural way. It's a quest. When it's right you know it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Not so guys. Look at it. Takes a LOT of discipline for both you and the dog. How could this be boring? To train a dog to do something that is NOT the natural way. It's a quest. When it's right you know it.


I'm with you, Jerry. It isn't boring to me.

But maybe it is after doing it with several dogs.


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> My opinion:
> 
> #1 would not concern me at all - I prefer a small club of like minded individuals who's goals are at least similiar to mine.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I agree with you 100% Lacey. I think it is important for everyone involved to get along and to respect each other. If there has to be politics, I don't have to be there and I don't want to be there. Everyone has to be willing to participate in some form or fashion, without taking unfair advantage of other members in the club, and to give credit where credit is do. Flexibility in training for different venues is very important to me as well. As long as the venue has some redeeming working qualities. LOL. I like the option of not being boxed in. Of course you already know all of this. ~Justin


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> #1 Our motto is that we will train a three legged Chi dog if you are truly dedicated to training. If you aren't willing to make at LEAST 75% of the training days, rain or shine, hot or cold,
> 
> #2 If you truly believe in 100% motivational training, we will teach you. If not, you need to look at the other traditional clubs in this area.
> 
> ...


 I like motivational training and I think it is a wonderful tool. Unforunately I have been taught to use force training.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Lindsay Janes said:


> I like motivational training and I think it is a wonderful tool. Unforunately I have been taught to use force training.


Any effective training motivates the dog to do something - force, aversives, corrections etc. can be very motivating....just being a bit anal.

It's a bit like someone saying they use purely positive training...doesn't exist!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ian Forbes said:


> Any effective training motivates the dog to do something - force, aversives, corrections etc. can be very motivating....just being a bit anal.
> 
> It's a bit like someone saying they use purely positive training...doesn't exist!


I suppose you could say that by simply containing a dog with a leash is compulsion. Our bite training is on leash but never with a correction. My obedience has been taught completely off lead. Never had a correction other then a "nope" for making an error.
My almost 4ry old, air scent, cadaver trained, article search trained, High in Trial,SchI, CDX dog has never recieved a correction in ANY of his triaining.
That's my version of purely positive. 
We're constantly being told "That can't be done" by people that have never truely put the effort into trying it. After 50 yrs of yank and crank I found it very hard to learn but I do believe in it. With my second, purely positive dog it's going much smoother. Not a hit on anyone in particular. Just the facts of life for purely positive trainers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I gave it a really good try with Buko, then he turned 20 months, and we went to a Seminar that also had a decoy cert, and it was game over. He got a big blast of testosterone, and 7-8 decoys to bite and I was kinda screwed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I gave it a really good try with Buko, then he turned 20 months, and we went to a Seminar that also had a decoy cert, and it was game over. He got a big blast of testosterone, and 7-8 decoys to bite and I was kinda screwed.


I think retraining with motivational after having a fair amount of compulsion may not be the best route. Yes, I think the dog can be retrained but I also believe the dog can (not always) revert to it's foundation training under stress. I can't say that for a fact because I haven't seen enough results to support it. 
I would compair it to a street fighter learning to box. He may very well become a good boxer but when the $#!+ hits the fan for real, the street comes back.
Teach a tough kid from the get go how to fight with skill, and if he's got the right stuff, that will be his foundation to fall back on. 
Teach a good pup with motivational and that will also be his foundation to fall back on.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> If you could start a new club, what would be the greatest cause for concern for you???
> 
> 1, Not enough members
> 
> ...


I have a hard time with the 4 hour round trip. Very sad being so-close-but-yet-so-far from Midwest Ring. So I've thought a lot about this, trying to find an acceptable substitute.

Lack of a skilled decoy. I can do puppy work pretty well, but beyond that I'm useless. So maybe this goes in the lack of knowledge category.

And lack of knowledge - in the finer points of rules and obedience. O - and tracking. Ugg.

Not enough memebrs? nah. 2 is a club. ;D


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I suppose you could say that by simply containing a dog with a leash is compulsion. Our bite training is on leash but never with a correction. My obedience has been taught completely off lead. Never had a correction other then a "nope" for making an error.
> My almost 4ry old, air scent, cadaver trained, article search trained, High in Trial,SchI, CDX dog has never recieved a correction in ANY of his triaining.
> That's my version of purely positive.
> We're constantly being told "That can't be done" by people that have never truely put the effort into trying it. After 50 yrs of yank and crank I found it very hard to learn but I do believe in it. With my second, purely positive dog it's going much smoother. Not a hit on anyone in particular. Just the facts of life for purely positive trainers.


Bob,

Melissa Alexander did a nice piece (I think it is on Karen Pryor's clicker training site) as to why she believes purely positive training does not exist. Withholding rewards and even extinction can be very aversive to some dogs.

I am all for for foundation work and teaching new exercises using positive reinforcement (for food, toy or bite) and as the dog matures avoid corrections and compulsion if possible, but all dogs are different and while some find the witholding of treats sufficient punishment, others require something more IMO....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I didn't start with compulsion. I have serious doubts that a strong dog can do what I do without some form of compulsion. All the positive kinda screwed me, as he didn't understand corrections. What I get for experimenting    

On the other hand, I do think there are dogs and more importantly sports that you could be really close to completely motivational training. There is just no way that I would breed to that type of dog, nor would I want it.........well maybe when I am old like you Bob.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ian, I'll have to look that up. It sounds interesting.
We have all levels of dogs at our club. Serious to nice pets. At this point in time, after 4 plus yrs of training with this method, all have responded well. 
I agree about witholding reward but that's never the case. We do random reward. The dog never knows exactly when it will be rewarded but it WILL be rewarded. 
I have total respect for any trainer that accomplishes his/her goals with whatever method does the job. I've done most over the years. 
Maybe, as Jeff says, I'm just getting old. :lol: :lol:  
Jeff, I'd be willing to bet that you'd like a couple of our dogs. Motivational training doesn't necessarilly make wussy dogs out of the real ones.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Don't think it makes a wussy, a dog is what a dog is. Buko just hit a point where he understood what no meant, he just chose to ignore it, as well as heel, or sit, or whatever when the decoy was present.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Ian, I'll have to look that up. It sounds interesting.
> We have all levels of dogs at our club. Serious to nice pets. At this point in time, after 4 plus yrs of training with this method, all have responded well.
> I agree about witholding reward but that's never the case. We do random reward. The dog never knows exactly when it will be rewarded but it WILL be rewarded.
> I have total respect for any trainer that accomplishes his/her goals with whatever method does the job. I've done most over the years.
> ...


Bob, here is the link:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/988

Here in the UK there have been some very impressive recent seminars given by people such as Ismael de Vos and Henrik Neumann using the clicker for all phases of SchH. Many old school trainers have been converted...

My only criticism is that some people seem to believe that punishment does not happen, even if it is -P. For example, if a dog was dirty in the hide, Ismael would drop the sleeve and the dog would get no bite. It's obviously not the same as yanking on a pinch collar, but it is still aversive enough to some dogs and a form of punishment - if it wasn't it would not work. When the dog was clean...click and bite.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ian, I have done the sleeve dropping thing for years. You drop the sleeve and look disgusted and walk away. The handler does this as well. It is a good method, and does work well, but if you try this method with all dogs.............yikes.

I used this method with Buko when I was teaching the H&B as well as incorporating it in the object guard when I was first teaching it. If the dog is your dog they start figuring it out. Again, I do not recommend this across the board for all dogs. I was the one with a sleeve, or jacket when I used this with Buko.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Again, I do not recommend this across the board for all dogs.


What fun is that???? I reccomend that everyone do this with every dog, as long as there is a video camera present!   

Then, when it goes horribly horribly wrong, I might buy the dog! Hows that for marketing????


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have often wondered how much video is out there with "special" moments like that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ian, thanks for the link. 
I do agree with your explination of the loss of reward being a form of punishment.
Jeff, being on the field with the decoy is a big step to take. It has worked with all our dogs, done in small incraments.
Passive is the key. Obviously a threat from the decoy should be reacted to if the decoy is up close as in a side or rear transport.
My only concern with motivational training is that the general public decides for us that is the only humane way of training. I do believe in choice!
Mike, when things go bad is it the dog, the method or the trainer?!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Mike, when things go bad is it the dog, the method or the trainer?!


It's the idiot judge that wants sport dogs to not bite when the sleeve isn't on the decoy


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> It's the idiot judge that wants sport dogs to not bite when the sleeve isn't on the decoy


:lol: :lol: Can't argue with that one! :lol:


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I think the best thing to do is forget clubs. Get someone or better yet a couple of people who know way more than you and have the experience to back what they say up, and the ability to work your dogs and bribe the heck out of them to teach you and work your dogs. I have found beer and having their dog big you in suit are usually pretty good bribes. just my 2 cents


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## Marie Miller (Jan 16, 2008)

Finding a GOOD Helper. Without a good helper there isn't much of a club


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

So true you are.


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## beth jones (Nov 10, 2007)

Hello
Starting a new club is not always easy. For me, I found the hardest things to obtain was a group of people who flowed together. Perferance in training, sports, breeds, and beliefs tend to cause much drama. It is easy to get members, but I found that getting backbone type of members and harmony between members was the most difficult. If I wanted to start a protection sport club, I think my limitations would be with the location of good decoys. The decoys are the heart of the club.
Beth
http://www.hebiron.com


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Having K-9, handler, or decoy injuries!


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