# Last Night's Sleeve and Civil Work



## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

I wanted to share a video of last night’s training. The run time is lengthy at 7:30 minutes (make some popcorn) but it contains all 4 mini sessions. It shows confidence building with sleeve work and civil. Those viewing please note how the intensity changes with and without the sleeve. The boy simply doesn’t care for the equipment which limits what and how can train. Does anyone have any experience with this issue? I’m curious as to the adaptations you had to make to continue progression and what you feel you missed out on. We left the Aztec Field feeling pretty proud at our progress especially at 3:52 when the helper ran up on the dog from about 8 yards out and he didn’t show any signs of retreat and stood firm. 
Lastly, NO busting on my better half. This was her first time at the helm. We’ll continue to work focus, confidence, skill, and CONTROL (on both ends of the leash) in the coming months. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHBTOHEuUgw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Thanks for sharing..

What's the end goal with the dog? 

What other sleeve/suit equipment do you use?

What happens when you give the dog a grip and work the dog away from the handler? 

Any vid of the dog working a little more freely? 

Hows the work with no agitation?

Sorry for all the questions but this dog reminds me of a GSD I did some work with. Almost identical.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

The goal for the dog has always been to be a confident and stable protector; a dog we can take anywhere; one that can judge a threat and react accordingly; one that has an on/off switch; a dog that will engage if/when we are incapacitated; and lastly a dog that is proactive and not completely reactive. Every training session begins with us turning him on, he has to display aggression on a passive helper, and then the action/fight begins. 

We’ve primarily done sleeve work with a few sessions of bite jacket work. I believe that past poor transitioning from tug to sleeve to bite suit is what caused his aversion. I can add that our former trainer used apprentices as helpers and many times they would jam both the jute sleeve and the bite jacket sleeve into the dog’s mouth which I’m convinced was the starting point to equipment based aversion. Now with that said, I do have a bite jacket at home and in the backyard he’s all over it. He gets all wiggly and jumps around until I begin our play. His bites are good but he gets a little chompy as he searches for something that is firmer to grip. He just won’t give us much on the training field. But he does give us some. I suspect he knows what it is and that anything he does will have no real effect. My trainer has tried over the top acting out in pain but the dog just seems to know. When we play in the backyard, I always give in but I’m pretty sure I’ve also contributed to this. Since recognizing this, I’ve put the jacket up. 

With the trainer I have now (5 months), we’ve primarily done confidence building on the table and only recently (1.5 months ago) brought him down to the ground. He’s done very well on the ground but sometimes will revert back and take an undesirable option and we’d put him back on the table. I think it’s paid off. The ground work in the video shows a dog that is ready to fight and is confident. But that is my bias opinion. Other eyes and opinions are always appreciated to bring a different prospective. I concede that there is a lot I don’t know or always know exactly what I’m looking at.
With this trainer, we’ve done no off-leash or long-line work because we’ve been working to build his confidence. It’s taken us some five months to bring him up to the level he’s at now. It started out ugly as I freely posted here a while back. On my youtube channel you can see his progression. Each video is titled by time stamp. 

Hope I got it all.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

your decoy seems to come in faster and closer when he is agitating without the sleeve than he does with it on... 

also when you took him off the table the first time in that clip you put his leash onto what seemed to be a correction collar, and your dog didn't seem to like it... have a flat collar on him or put the leash on the harness (though i would recommend a flat collar)... 

sorry that's all my input for 1am...


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Thx, I have one of those.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

I also just got Canine Training Systems/Schutzhund Protection II. It covers teaching a defense oriented dog to make prey. I hope to get a few ideas from there. Basically the dog already fills the bill. Just looking for a little icing. 

Thx again


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

I hope the training was for free


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I hope the training was for free


Would you care to expound on your statement so that I can address it appropriately.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I hope the training was for free


Im going to assume you've seen some discrepancy in the actions or training ability of my trainer. Really, I dont see anything constructive coming from such a discussion. Now if you want to discuss the dog himself. Im game The video's intent was to show some that may be following my dogs development how his civil aggression is coming along. 

Do you want to talk about the dog?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The dog seems to be very reactive to the helper's actions. Notice that the dog intensity goes up and down with the helper's actions? IMO this is not a good thing for a protection dog. The dog should be trying to get the helper to engage him not trying to chase him away. Your dog is saying "You better get away! I don't want to have to bite you!" And he should say "My handler has given me permission to bite you. Now bring your ass over here." A dog with that mindset is never going to protect you in real life unless the bad guy runs around, swinging his arms and cracking a whip. 

I have suggestions that might help but you are saying you don't want to talk about your trainer so I will keep those to myself.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Good feedback, thx. I watched the video again andgot what you are saying. Chris, this dog has had a past history of just horrible training. Something im willing to discuss offline. He is a defense oriented dog but has plenty enough prey to work with. We've spent 5 months building his confidence. Joby can testify to that. He's been very helpful. I invite you to view my YT channel to see where we started and his progression todate. Everything is time stamped. He's has enough confidence now to begin working prey with runaways and progressing from there. 

I know most everyone on here is most passionate aboutt their training skills. I get that. Im passionate about my job too. We all can't live next door or even in the same city as some of the best decoys or trainers. I am in San Diego. I busted my ass trying to find the best out here for PPD. I and so many others have to simply work with our resources and do the best we can. 

PM - Im way more that willing to accept feedback. I'll apply what I can and hopefully come back with something good to share.

Thx


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Good feedback, thx. I watched the video again andgot what you are saying. Chris, this dog has had a past history of just horrible training. Something im willing to discuss offline. He is a defense oriented dog but has plenty enough prey to work with. We've spent 5 months building his confidence. Joby can testify to that. He's been very helpful. I invite you to view my YT channel to see where we started and his progression todate. Everything is time stamped. He's has enough confidence now to begin working prey with runaways and progressing from there.
> 
> I know most everyone on here is most passionate aboutt their training skills. I get that. Im passionate about my job too. We all can't live next door or even in the same city as some of the best decoys or trainers. I am in San Diego. I busted my ass trying to find the best out here for PPD. I and so many others have to simply work with our resources and do the best we can.
> 
> ...


Its always good to lend some support to people, but Doug, I have been confused about the path, and do not see the type of progression of either path I suggested.

You pretty much had/have to make a choice, either you want the dog to be good for weekly bitework with a sleeve or suit, and work on building his confidence or suit and take the dog back quite a ways to get over his issues or you have to give the dog more confidence in the confrontation aspect of the man in front of him and forget about trying to achieve good impressive bitework.

I have told you that the trainer you are seeing is much better than the other 2 I have seen videos of, but also have not been shy about telling you all the problems I see in the more current videos.

Which areas do you think the condience is being effectively built in?

I do not see him building the confidence in either area to be quite honest. That is why I have sort of taken a back seat to offering advice, since I am no where near you, and you are kinda stuck with whoever you can work with, who obviously is not open to suggestions from you, and I would not expect him to take suggestions from a dude like me either.

I have lots of experience with dogs that have "equipment" conflict, it usually falls into 2 categories.

1. The dog has man issues that need to be addressed if they can. 
2. The dog knows what the equipment is and what its purpose is as far as protecting the decoy..

with some dogs it is a mixture of the 2.

As I said this type of thing needs to be worked on in slow methodical incriments, it takes a program that is long and well thought out to bring a dog back that got the early training your dog did, not overdoing anything....especially if you are looking to have him be impressive in bitework on equipment at the trainers place. You simply cannot be real successful with a fix, taking a couple steps forward and then one back..or without specific goals and training focused on those goals that is effective. Your dog got screwed by the first 2 guys, and is still getting screwed, just not as hard.

The timing is off, as is a clear goal, the whip should be gone. The guy is not effectively showing the dog much of anything in the way of yielding to the dog. is doing too much, giving too many bites, and is not rewarding the dog eferctively.. dog doesnt even get to chase the guy away even.

I have never seen a video where the guy is acting like the dog broke his arm, that dog should be allowed to chase that guy, scare the guy, think he hurt him, IF there is a bite. he should be promoting forward movement...

I have seen the videos, and I think the dog is getting screwed. the first gus taught nim not to like the bitework.

The home invasion dude, the dog actually did ok he engaged the guy in the suit, and then had his confidence shattered by the "decoy"...that was a major setback for sure..

then the newest guy has still used the whip, at incorrect times, actually backing the dog up, he has kicked chairs at him, he has not really either tried to make the bitework more fun for the dog, or given him much in the way of real confidence in my opinion. he rarely lets dog come to him, he rarely shows any real submission to the dog, or lets dog win..winning the sleeve for a dog that does not really want the sleeve is not winning. doing 3-4 mini sessions in one day with a dog like yours is not a good idea at all, unless it is no contact straight defense from a distance progression with a bite at the end of the day, or a much of mini prey/play sessions to help him start to enjoy the bitework more, on some pieces of equipment that is not an extension of the man himelf, like a sleeve or suit, and then work in some prey guarding and environmental things to get more intensity, without coming at the dog full bore...

rambling now....I know...I think the dog you have is a decent dog most likely, that is getting screwed, not your fault though, you are learning, and I know you dont have your choice of trainers where you are at..

I could be 100% wrong about how I might work the dog, as I dont have the dog in front of me, I could be wrong about what might need to be done or work for him, cause I am not working him... I had my doubts about the new guy too, he is much better than the other dudes, but I dont think he is gonna get you where you want to go...

there are a couple paths I think that would work, depending on what you want to get out of the dog, and the time and effort you want to put into the dog in terms of months/year(s) to get him on track on one of those paths, but this trainer seems to be working against both of them in my mind, but still better than the other guys. 

how many choke offs or how much hidden sleeve or muzzle work does the dog have? how much distance work? how many guys ever showed the dog that he has power? how many guys has the dog ever overpowered in any real form? how many have made "bitework" fun for him? how many people showed the dog he can hurt them and win? I see overtraining, incorrect progression, poor timing, poor acting...etc....

rambling again, not all of those things need to be done, but gotta pick something and accomplish it.


I would like to here Chris's thoughts for sure, just to see if they are anything like mine, and also pick his brain some. So please share them on here or PM them to me as well.

I would let Chris work my dogs anytime, and I am sure he is a good problem solver, for whichever path you are trying to go down, and what the real goals are. Right now their is no real focus on the goals as you want, and the timing and motivating the dog (whatever motivation that is) and building the confidence is lacking.

If you still have that video of that home invasion and the earlier vids, you should share those, and show everyone what they did to your dog, that guy in the yard had a great chance to really help your dog, after the earlier guys messed him up, but did not, he set him back farther than one might realize, especially after his foundation. A few things going differently could have made a huge impact on the dog in my opinion.

if you want the dog doing lots and lots of biting and bitework that is one thing, if you want him to take on a guy for real, that is another thing sometimes, depending on the dog and his history..and to do both, sometimes you need to start over, almost at the beginning. depressing I know...

yer kinda stuck.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Im going to assume you've seen some discrepancy in the actions or training ability of my trainer. Really, I dont see anything constructive coming from such a discussion. Now if you want to discuss the dog himself. Im game The video's intent was to show some that may be following my dogs development how his civil aggression is coming along.
> 
> Do you want to talk about the dog?


No i do not want talk about the dog! it may would hurt you what i have to say.lets talk about the helper work.there is not one moment with a clear message to the dog. if you do stuff like that you should know what you do.you should be a good actor.the dog sits on a table why?if you put him up there use the table.all what i see is some weird arm shaking whip hitting and pushing the sleeve into his mouth,between that we have some small talk and let the dog stay there and let him look like a smart thinker.

If i would try to design a dress it would look the same.:razz:i am so funny tonight!!

you talk about bad training in the dogs history!!!looks like you have not learn.[-X


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Stefan Schaub said:


> No i do not want talk about the dog! it may would hurt you what i have to say.lets talk about the helper work.there is not one moment with a clear message to the dog. if you do stuff like that you should know what you do.you should be a good actor.the dog sits on a table why?if you put him up there use the table.all what i see is some weird arm shaking whip hitting and pushing the sleeve into his mouth,between that we have some small talk and let the dog stay there and let him look like a smart thinker.
> 
> If i would try to design a dress it would look the same.:razz:i am so funny tonight!!
> 
> you talk about bad training in the dogs history!!!looks like you have not learn.[-X


Stefan, Doug is a real nice guy that does not know much about training protection dogs, that has gotten screwed by trainers that have claimed that they know what they are doing, and lives in an area where there are not many very good trainers at all. Please do not be rude to him, he is a victim in some ways, and is not very knowledgable which he admits.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> how many choke offs or how much hidden sleeve or muzzle work does the dog have? how much distance work? how many guys ever showed the dog that he has power? how many guys has the dog ever overpowered in any real form? how many have made "bitework" fun for him? how many people showed the dog he can hurt them and win? I see overtraining, incorrect progression, poor timing, poor acting...etc.....


Joby, I've always respected your insight and experience even though its not always what I want to hear. They've never fallen on deaf ears, its just my resources are limited. Right now it's tough to accept that I am once again going down that road. A road that I thought I steered clear of this time even though you've made it clear that you've seen the signs. I appreciate your respectful method of delivering the message without being condesending.

The home invasion link is below (as requested) along with a vid of some work with my first trainer. All my vids are wide open and anyone can view them. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gngo6VbSts0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssaRMODreIU

To answer your questions above - NONE. However, its not like they weren't requested or discussed. I dont know where else to go with this without sounding like I'm making excuses.

Christopher has reached out and offered to evaluate my dog. Hopefully he can get me going in the right direction.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Doug
there are guys who excel in building up dogs using a table
if you can find some of those vids you will immediately see what others have already pointed out
...and this will help IF your current trainer is not too stubborn to learn from others, because he should watch them too of course 

simple .... just show him the vid, discuss what you both see, tell him what you like about them and than TELL him to try the same approach...since YOU are the one paying him 

---Stefan, if you have some to show that you are proud of ..... post em

i am horrible at finding youtube vids but there have been some posted here as ref links if i remember correctly and there are people here whoi can tell you EXACTLY how to tell your trainer what you want to do on the table....and OFF 

not that it matters, but i am in total agreement with what others have said that your current table sessions are not making the dog better


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Doug
> there are guys who excel in building up dogs using a table
> if you can find some of those vids you will immediately see what others have already pointed out
> ...and this will help IF your current trainer is not too stubborn to learn from others, because he should watch them too of course
> ...


table, tieout, night time, fence, strange places, environments, preyguarding, going after handler, using territorrial or frustration aggression, all things that can be used to bring out intensity and confidence with a defensive type edge, without ever having to threaten the dog directly in a serious way or doing things that will set back dogs with confidence issues. 

This takes longer than some people might think, with careful progressions, great timing, great acting...

The worst thing you can do is use those tools and repeatedly over stress the dog through doing things the dog is not ready for, or causing him to do anything other than show his strengths.

Also if impressive bitework is the goal, with a dog that has been pounded into submission and or taught he is ineffective by poor trainers, there is a progression of freeing him up, making the trips to field non stressful and fun for the dog, and build him up that way. This also take time, and careful work.

I have told DOug that I think his dog is decent, not ideal, and that he could probably be brought back, that it was worth trying in my opinion. 
But that is also highly dependent upon well thought out good work, form skilled people, that may take a while for sure, there is no easy fix for this type of thing, for a dog that has went through the progression of training that he has, it would take a real strong dog to just come out on top after all that.

I am glad Chris is gonna take a look at him, I dont know Chris but we have communicated a little, and from our discussions I would say he is an excellent option to explore.

It is dicey working with dogs like this, and sadly there are not lots of decoys that are skilled at getting this dog on track for what Doug wants out of him. That is the plain truth.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

also support from handler and good teamwork. forgot that important thing in there.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Stefan, Doug is a real nice guy that does not know much about training protection dogs, that has gotten screwed by trainers that have claimed that they know what they are doing, and lives in an area where there are not many very good trainers at all. Please do not be rude to him, he is a victim in some ways, and is not very knowledgable which he admits.


do not want sound rude!!!did not say one bad word about his dog.we have talk about the helper work!!one question,if there is only one restaurant in your area and they make their food out of left overs from a pig farm would you eat there?? for sure not.

why train at all.better train twice a month with good people than weekly with .....!! i really think i help him with my open opinion.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Stefan Schaub said:


> do not want sound rude!!!did not say one bad word about his dog.we have talk about the helper work!!one question,if there is only one restaurant in your area and they make their food out of left overs from a pig farm would you eat there?? for sure not.
> 
> why train at all.better train twice a month with good people than weekly with .....!! i really think i help him with my open opinion.




But you can't be expected to enjoy a gourmet meal if it's served in a pig trough either.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Joby/Christopher and WDF, I wanted to say thanks for your inputs and inspiring some real thought. I will no longer be working this dog in PP. You have been successful in illustrating to me several points as to what kind of dog can and cannot do this work effectively. You’ve been very clear as to what real training is and isn’t. It sucks that it’s taken me so long to learn. One thing that Christopher brought up offline that really hit home was that a suitable dog will display behavior that says “My owner gives be permission to bite” vice “come any closer and I’ll bite. I paraphrased but the important thing is that I heard you. I’m not convinced my dog likes to bite as he doesn’t see biting the sleeve or bitesuit as any form of a reward making it almost impossible to judge and in fact progress further. I can say he likes performing and biting in the safety of his own home but in the past I’ve mistaken play and interaction for desire and fight. Will he bite? – We’ll find out should the need arises. 

Meanwhile, I’m going to continue studying the subject while pursuing another venue with him. You have to admit that after three unsuccessful tries at finding the right training group and still not getting it right, it’s time to re-evaluate. It’s an easy decision that was tough to make. You can bet I’ll take what I’ve learned and start again in a few years when I’ll be ready for another dog.

Thanks


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Just wanted to thank the posters for a nice thread. I don't know much about this area and it's good (for me at least) to match comments (nice clear instructive posts Joby, chris) with the videos and see with new eyes. Normally I can see major issues but some of the dog interaction escapes me until I can see it pointed out. I know that writing long posts can take some time but appreciate everyone's effort.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug

Part of the problem is the CTS Shutzhund Protection DVD is ~ 25 years old and seriously out of date.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Thomas the video wasn't my problem but you're right - much of the info is way outdated. The problem was I didnt have the experience to recognize inadequacies in the dog, myself, and training Me much smarter now.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Stefan Schaub said:


> do not want sound rude!!!did not say one bad word about his dog.we have talk about the helper work!!one question,if there is only one restaurant in your area and they make their food out of left overs from a pig farm would you eat there?? for sure not.
> 
> why train at all.better train twice a month with good people than weekly with .....!! i really think i help him with my open opinion.


ok must be an interpretation thing...sometime your posts do come off sounding rude to some people. It is good to know they are not meant to, I know how people can misinterpret things, as it happens all the time online. You cannot judge mood or intent by the written word in many cases.

thanks for your input to the board.


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