# European vs North American Dog Culture ..



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey since we have such a broad spectrum of members across the world. I'd like to open a discussion about dog life differences between the 2 continents. 

Reason is we have a new member in our club who grew up in the Czech Republic during the Communist era. 

He was telling us stories about going either to Shutzhund or target practice before and after grade school, (Bringing his target rifle to school on his back and leaving it in the corner of his class to boot as it was the norm) or jogging through the streets as a 8 year old boy with a pig leg to lay tracks for others tracking and all of this stuff was sponsored by the police and military. That seeing a mixed breed was a very rare occurence, as everybody has a purebred dog. He was saying if 2 different breeds mixed it up in the backyard, litters like that were culled without a second thought and it is not thought of as cruel. 

Here in North America we are swamped with mix breeds the local shelters are full of unwanted dogs and organizations like PETA and HSUS rule the roost. Protection dog sport is being pushed to the fringes by organizations like that. Yet dog sports like flyball, agility et al are deemed the doggy norm. The majority of dog people in North America don't have a clue about getting started in protection sports where in european countries it is sanctioned and encouraged by the government. 

Is the gap that big between the 2 worlds? I'd love to hear some first hand accounts on what you see the gap being.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Interesting information Geoff. I'd venture to say it's got something to do with the 4th of July  (? I am by no means really knowledgable about history, but...thought that might be noteworthy) 



Geoff Empey said:


> The majority of dog people in North America don't have a clue about getting started in protection sports where in european countries it is sanctioned and encouraged by the government.


Is this still the case in Europe and if so, specifically, how? I think in Holland there are like 350 +/- SchH (IPO) clubs and in my state of Iowa here, only 2 that I am aware of...If protection sports are in fact still sanctioned and encouraged there, then these figures make sense (or .$cents)


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Other than dog sports being more known about and bigger in Europe, my observations are that: it's not too different.

I know breeders who cull litters and all sorts in the US just as I do in Europe. There are many shelter dogs and equivalent animal rights organizations as there are in the US. There are a lot of people who are anti-correction, pro-halti, just like in the US. There are people who are hard and soft on their dogs, just like the US. There are lots of people who love and spoil their foofoo dogs, just like in the US. There are lots of breeders breeding crap dogs, just like the US. There are breeders producing really great dogs, just like the US. There are good trainers, just like the US. There are bad trainers, just like the US.

The proportions and numbers may be different, but all of the mentalities exist on both continents.

However, in the US since dog sports aren't as big, a lot of the recruits in working dogs come from the pet sector. People who "want something cute to do with their dog and someone suggested Schutzhund." So a lot of the pet mentality is being brought into working dogs, whereas in Europe, more often, working dog people are working dog people.

The difference in Europe, is that if you have, say, 5 trainers in Belgium, you can drive to each and any of those trainers in under 90 minutes. Any more than that and you either end up in France, Holland, Germany, or the water. In the US if there were to be 5 good trainers, you might be spending 5-10 hours in the car to get to any of them, at a minimum. So it's really a numbers game. The country is huge (and of course there's Canada adding to the continent, I guess we can include Canadians in this... right Geoff??  ) So the distance between any random person and a good breeder or good trainer is suddenly not "90 minutes or less" but more like "the kinda distance where word of mouth doesn't travel." It's hard enough promoting good litters in Europe, I sure as hell wouldn't know if one breeder is producing better dogs than the other without seeing the dogs, because even in a small country, reputation doesn't usually spread further than the local group of dog clubs. Except of course the big names like Joe Farm and Tiekerhook that specifically market to international audiences.

I don't think that either continent is better than the other if you look at the big picture. But what I will say, is that the shorter distances and longer history with dog sports (and the fact that suing people costs a lot of money and is a pain in the ass here) makes it easier and more convenient. If you don't like your local club, 10 miles down the road there'll be another one.

This is my take on it anyway, someone else's may be different.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> The country is huge (and of course there's Canada adding to the continent, I guess we can include Canadians in this... right Geoff??  )


North America is a unique situation for sure. I see the scene between Canada and the USA as very similar. Though magnified up here as again we have less population so that means again less opportunities to participate. 



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> It's hard enough promoting good litters in Europe, I sure as hell wouldn't know if one breeder is producing better dogs than the other without seeing the dogs, because even in a small country, reputation doesn't usually spread further than the local group of dog clubs. Except of course the big names like Joe Farm and Tiekerhook that specifically market to international audiences.


But in Europe you will never see a blue Malinois or a white Doberman and you can actually find Boxers that work. What I see is the assumed quality of everything Euro is assumed to be on a higher level than similar dogs from North America. I know that hype says that, but in reality a well bred litter is a well bred litter no matter where it is from. 

At my last trial this euro guy says to my breeder about one of her dogs "is that a NA bred Piece of crap?" Then this is the same guy who took him 4 times to do his FR Brevet with his 'Euro' floppy eared Malinois, I asked him the next day if his was part Labrador with those floppy ears It is interesting to say the least .. The perception of what everything is ... doesn't mean it is true.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> But in Europe you will never see a blue Malinois or a white Doberman and you can actually find Boxers that work.


I have never seen a blue malinois or a white dobe anywhere, so I couldn't say 

As for working boxers... doesn't Jerry Lyda's daughter have a working Boxer, Abbie?

I think if you have enough people into working dogs, there'll be a certain number interested in working dogs of breeds other than GSD/Mal/Dutchie. More people in Europe work dogs, so the odds of finding someone that is willing to put in the time to preserve the working traits of a breed, such as Boxer, are higher. The US is dependant on imported dogs, and not enough working dog people are interested in developing solid working Boxer lines. But, the people are there.

I am told by people in Holland that you cant even get a truly great Dobe in Holland anymore. There are working dobes, but if you want a really good one you should look elsewhere.

However, whenever someone asks for alternative breeds on forums, what is the response? "Get a GSD/Mal, you will have better odds." What is the typical response to that? "OK, I decided to get a GSD."

Granted, the people that "have to ask" probably wouldn't know what to do with a good working non-standard breed and therefore a good dog would be wasted anyway since the lines wouldn't be developed. But the general consensus is "stay away from the off-breeds."

The other problem with the off-breeds, not to get too far off topic, is the fact that people who have them won't shut the f up about them. Look at all the molester, er, molasses, er, whatever they are breeds and the people that own them. They are so blind as to the true abilities and temperament of their dog that they start spreading around retarded myths to justify why "their dog" is so fabulous. Rather than being objective and harshly critical of their dog and breed choice, and seeking to improve the breeds by finding those rare prime examples of the breed, they waste their time talking smack on forums defending a dog that is probably a junker anyway.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> But in Europe you will never see a blue Malinois


Actually this is incorrect. You will see blue Malinois in Europe, there are breeders there producing quite a few of them and people are working them. After all, the lines we have in the US that are producing blues, came from Europe  And many of them pretty recently at that. Lisa's new dog Villier that she's posted about on this board was titled to FRII in Europe (ie someone took the time to train a blue). That's just one example. According to one European breeder of working Malinois, the blues in his litters are actually quite popular with working people.

I agree with Mike about distance being a huge factor for protection sports in this country. I'd love to live somewhere that I could find 10 clubs within an hours drive. And I actually think it would be a more then 10. But hey, I won't be greedy  

In the US, you pretty much train with the 1 club that is in your area, if you actually have 1 in your area. And if you have a choice of 2 or 3, you are in a training mecca. If you are having a problem with your dog that your club can't resolve, you spend hundreds or more to bring in someone for a seminar, or fly somewhere to train with someone, etc to try to fix that problem. Or people give up and start over again, only to discover the next dog has the same problem also because it's the training not the dog. In Europe you drive 30 minutes and you have access to someone who has the experience to deal with that specific problem.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually this is incorrect. You will see blue Malinois in Europe, there are breeders there producing quite a few of them and people are working them. After all, the lines we have in the US that are producing blues, came from Europe  And many of them pretty recently at that. Lisa's new dog Villier that she's posted about on this board was titled to FRII in Europe (ie someone took the time to train a blue). That's just one example. According to one European breeder of working Malinois, the blues in his litters are actually quite popular with working people.


Cool thanks for the clarification. Ok this is something I don't understand. (not to get to far off topic) If a 'blue' is being produced by breeders on both side of the pond. As well as being worked. I'm sure that being 'blue' doesn't effect workability. But it sure does effect conformation, do these dogs get pulled from the gene pool by getting sterilized or are they allowed to procreate because of the workability? What takes precedence? Workability or conformation or does both have to be together? I know you being a working line breeder want the best workability that you can go for even if the dogs are not the prettiest (not saying your dogs are not btw) Where is that line drawn in the sand?



Kadi Thingvall said:


> I agree with Mike about distance being a huge factor for protection sports in this country. I'd love to live somewhere that I could find 10 clubs within an hours drive. And I actually think it would be a more then 10. But hey, I won't be greedy


I agree .. To find a real live French Ring club in this country with more than 1 training decoy I have to go 3.5 hours and I am lucky. Others may have 10-14 hours. I found a decoy local and love working with him but to grow the dog IMHO we need to work the dog on as many people as possible. 

My friend Ted who bought BB off you last year had a 20 hour drive to attend our seminar a few weeks ago. To bad as BB has so much potential it is crazy. Luigi Ricci the judge for our trial from France and myself were giggling like school girls watching BB work Marc Villain with grips during the seminar. I love watching a good level III dog work and am entertained, but there is a lot to be said for watching a new handler and green dog work foundation that is just as exciting to watch as an experienced team, especially since BB has the potential as does Ted as a handler to go to FRIII. But without help thats a hard garden to hoe. It all boils down to the distance from real help. That's a shame.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> My friend Ted who bought BB off you last year had a 20 hour drive to attend our seminar a few weeks ago.


To put that into perspective:

From where I am, I can drive to Bratislava in Slovakia AND BACK in about 20-22 hours. Slovakia wasn't even part of the EU till 2004, it's way at the other side of what I would consider Europe.

I can drive to Gibraltar in 22 hours, which is the very most south point of Spain/Europe toward Morocco.

Rome in Italy is a 14 hour drive.

Lulea in Sweden is way way up north near Finland's border, and that is a 27 hour drive.

The center of Poland is less than 12 hours.

If you take into account that these destinations would literally be driving clear across Europe (pending traffic of course), compared to "20 hours" to get to a seminar within one country, that really shows you how insane, and difficult, it is in the US to train dogs compared to Europe.

It really is some insane distance to cover. I spent 45-60 minutes to drive to training (one way) almost every day in Orlando, and training was just the other side of the city from me. That kind of drive would take me to the next country here.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> If you take into account that these destinations would literally be driving clear across Europe (pending traffic of course), compared to "20 hours" to get to a seminar within one country, that really shows you how insane, and difficult, it is in the US to train dogs compared to Europe.


But is it the distance that is the only gap? To me out of 100,000 people in say a country like Belgium there has to be a handful of people that train and can train a dog properly in protection Dog Sport. Here in my Area of 900,000+ there is that same handful 5-6 people as I already train with them. I know for a fact that there is no one else here Training French Ring or Shutzhund .. let alone Mondio or IPO. 

So it can't just be the distance it has to be the perception of the sports. We have our local GSD club and when someone tries to contact them if they are interested in Shutzhund that person is misled or not answered at all. This same GSD club the secretary a good friend of mine contacted me about co-ordinating a protection demonstration .. it was nixed [-X The Club directors saying that they didn't want to expose their ASS line dogs to 'aggresive' dogs and situations ... Oh Puuulease! 8-[ Talk about uptight and closed minded.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

My Czech friend just sent me a link about what he grew up with and this article is quite interesting to say the least. http://labontecanine.com/CzechSlovakDogs.htm 

And an article on KNPV from the same www some cool reading here .. http://labontecanine.com/DutchDogs.htm


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> But is it the distance that is the only gap?


Obviously not. I don't know whether I wrote it or thought it: But one of the factors is that dog sports have been around in Europe for over 100 years. There is a lot of time and history backing it up and the registries like FCI back the competitions, unlike AKC who took till, what, 2003? to come up with a protection sport that I don't get the impression many people train for anyway.

But my point earlier was simply that: Europe and North America have all the same types of problems. The difference is that in North America people have the added difficulty of trying to achieve what has taken Europe 100 years to do, over a far far far greater distance. I am sure that there are a ton of people out there who simply don't train because there's nobody to train with, or they don't like the guy that runs the one club they do have available to them.

Oddly, here in the world capital of Malinois, it is exceptionally difficult to find a competent trainer outside of sport clubs. You'd think that there would be at least 10 trainers that did private training in a PSA kind of style for protection training, but if there are 10, they are hiding really well.


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## Jane King (Nov 24, 2007)

Are you counting England as part of Europe in this thread?

The dog-scene over here is very polarised, if that's the right word. There is a very large pet-owning population, which supports a huge industry. There is an increasing movement towards elevating dogs to the staus of little people, with some giant pet stores selling huge ranges of collars, leads, beds, coats, toys etc. Of course, we tend to blame you Americans for this:-\" 
Just my opinion, but I think this mentality of putting human emotions and needs onto dogs is the root cause of so many dogs being unwanted and pts over here. There is a huge rescue problem and also now a very strong movement against breeders of pure-bred dogs. 

Farmers tend to just go for working dogs either from specialist trials men who breed litters, or whatever working dog they like the look of. In the hunting world we still have packs of hounds - bred and reared as they have been for centuaries, despite 'Tony' (remember him - looked a bit smug like this :mrgreen: and was quite pally with yer man George?) banning lots of types of hunting. Same goes for the shooting people: they have stuck to their guns (excuse the pun) and breed for working ability and train using methods that haven't changed much. In all these cultures, dogs tend to live outdoors, or maybe just allowed in the kitchen (apart from hounds!) 

We have obedience, agility, flyball and working trials clubs too - as well as still a few big show kennels.

What I find a bit sad for such a small island is that hardly anyone ever looks outside their own little world and takes an interest in what other doggy-types are up to. To me, if you are into dogs, you'd want to find out everything and go in with an open mind.

The older I get, the more I think dogs are happiest being dogs and the best way to avoid destroying 750 healthy dogs a week is to pick a dog that is bred for a purpose; use it for that purpose, or something that can replicate the physical and mental demands of it and be happy with what you've gotO Otherwise, get a goldfish.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

IMO the long history of dogsports and the culturedifference (dogs/dogsports are well known here) are more the difference than only the big distances.

Mike, here dogssports are a clubthing. No private trainers at all, why should people? You cant make money out of it, at least not so much it is a living. It is still all hobby, een liefhebberij (doing it for the love of dogs/dogssport). People like Bart Bellon are very rare, very commercial and that exploiting of knowledge in dogs (sports) isn't common 'cause you can find the same knowledge in a dogsportsclub nearby (in a 1 hour drive).

Dogtrading (for example with US, with the big money) didnt nothing good for the dogs/dogssports. If anything isnt going easy or there is a (minor) problem, oh well sell the dog. You get some bucks and we'll get the next one. People dont take the time to figure out a problem anymore.
Just to make a point that making money with dogs/dogssports doesnt have to do with love for the dogs/dogssports. Because money is a factor, people are tending to choose a easier type of dog (mainly preydriven dogs) who are easily trained, finished soon and sold very fast, which doesnt good for the quality of dogs in our opinion.
A preydriven dog is better sold as a dual purpose dogs than a dominant (or social agressive, which term you prefer) dog. The latter are more difficult in training, many people cant (or are willing) to work such a dog. 
Before there were much more of these type of dogs in the KNPV, now less than 10% (estimated).

Dick & Selena


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

My impressions, as a kid growing up in Moscow...

Most pet dogs were purebred. Everything from cute little fluffies to pointers, setters, danes, etc. Mixebreds were not kept often, but of course you could see some as strays and some loving people would adopt a stray here and there. Dogcatchers were able to pick up most of the problem stray dogs, but there were a few that were quick enough to get away, always a favorite neighborhood stray or two that people would feed. These were usually very street-smart, clever dogs. I have heard that in the last 15 years it's all changed, and there are a lot more strays which form dangerous packs and have stalked humans - a lot of people had dumped dogs when they couldn't afford to feed them anymore.

A biting dog was perfectly acceptable, and a good dog would bite to protect as a matter of course. Dogs with a strong character were more accepted than they are here. I have heard numerous stories of dogs defending owners from burglars, etc. One of my uncles had a caucasian ovcharka - seriously scary guard dog - that protected his house out in the country. Visitors had to follow a strict routine to get introduced to the dog, but once introduced the dog would allow you on the property that day as long as you didn't do anything to provoke him. I honestly don't remember anything about pinch collars or choke chains being used. My uncle had a "strict collar" for the Caucasian, a wicked looking flat leather choker with sharp spikes pointed inward. Said that the dog ignored everything else.

Big dogs were accepted in very small apartments as a matter of course. Friends of ours bred Newfoundlands, and had a bitch and 12 pups one time, in a 1 bedroom flat. I remember the poor bitch doing a balancing act on the back of a couch, to get a break from her ravenous brood. It was common knowledge that people would drown unwanted puppies or kittens, but I did not know anyone who did it.

I don't recall any bite-trained GSD. Nobody had Malinois. It was always accepted that GSD's were more of a police/army dog, and I think there was a program where people could raise them for a year and donate them for that purpose. People's "pet" GSD's could be taken away if they were needed for police/army use as well. You had to respect GSD's when you met one, they were usually dogs with a strong temperament.

Training was a matter of course. If you had a big strong dog there was no question of OB, it had to be good. A friend of mine had a Moscow Guard Dog (created from Caucasians with something more biddable mixed in) and she had to take classes to get a license to get that dog.

Neighbors poisoned dogs A LOT more often than here. A good dog was not supposed to pick up food outside or take treats from anyone. My friend's Moscow Guard Dog was killed by neighbors who knew the dog and tried to buy him several times but the owners wouldn't sell. Since the dog knew them, they fed him crushed glass mixed with ground meat. 

A "dog park" was an entirely different concept, more like a dog training field, and I remember my grandpa taking me there to play on the equipment - balance beam, see-saw type thing, a-frame, small fences for jumps and a palisade wall. These were permanent, wooden fixtures. I thought it was more fun than the kids playground, hehe. I don't remember if we ever watched the dogs train there, I was too little.

A lot of people had working dogs, hounds, terriers, etc. Hunting out in the country was considered normal.

Random memories...

Now, I think it's getting the same way as everywhere ellse, with lots of mixebreeds, wacky animal rights people, rescuers, etc.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Mike, here dogssports are a clubthing. No private trainers at all, why should people? You cant make money out of it, at least not so much it is a living. It is still all hobby, een liefhebberij (doing it for the love of dogs/dogssport). People like Bart Bellon are very rare, very commercial and that exploiting of knowledge in dogs (sports) isn't common 'cause you can find the same knowledge in a dogsportsclub nearby (in a 1 hour drive).


Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I understand it. I am just a pain in the ass when it comes to this   Maybe I will suck it up and train with Rinus Bastiaansen. I was just really hoping to avoid IPO, and I still have about as much motivation for tracking as I do sitting on a pitchfork. But I don't want to hijack the thread, we will talk when I see you next.



> Are you counting England as part of Europe in this thread?


Does England even consider England to be part of Europe???


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I understand it. I am just a pain in the ass when it comes to this   But I don't want to hijack the thread, we will talk when I see you next.


thursday is fine by us, we talk about it when the puppies bite you :mrgreen:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> But my point earlier was simply that: Europe and North America have all the same types of problems. The difference is that in North America people have the added difficulty of trying to achieve what has taken Europe 100 years to do, over a far far far greater distance. I am sure that there are a ton of people out there who simply don't train because there's nobody to train with, or they don't like the guy that runs the one club they do have available to them.


I can see that it is most likely it is nobody to train with. One thing the Euros have over the North Americans is those 100 years of history. That is a hard thing to replicate the history and the collective experience. When was Shutzhund introduced in NA the 1970's maybe? That's a lot of catch up just right there. 



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Oddly, here in the world capital of Malinois, it is exceptionally difficult to find a competent trainer outside of sport clubs. You'd think that there would be at least 10 trainers that did private training in a PSA kind of style for protection training, but if there are 10, they are hiding really well.


As Selena said there is lot's of trainers but they are in the clubs. I assume from what I know of you that working in a club format is not where you want to grow your expertise. I assume you are looking for so much more. Are you just being to picky? Correct me if I am wrong.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jane King said:


> Are you counting England as part of Europe in this thread?


Totally!! Lot's of working dog history from the UK as well.

Thanks Anna For the Moscow connection that was cool and pretty much alike from my Czech friends experience from what he described.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> As Selena said there is lot's of trainers but they are in the clubs. I assume from what I know of you that working in a club format is not where you want to grow your expertise. I assume you are looking for so much more. Are you just being to picky? Correct me if I am wrong.


Sent you PM explaining my thought process. But to summarize, What I want to train is unavailable to me, what is available to me is not appropriate for my dogs, and what is appropriate for my dogs that is available to me is what I am trying to get away from 

There ARE people, its not really that there is "nobody nobody." Just, very few. I was just given the phone number to a guy in Antwerpen that competed in Mondio at the top levels, and decoyed for some of the top competitors. He is now selling trained adults, troubleshooting peoples sport dogs and private training. He is supposed to be very good, so I will see what he says. His website also has pics of GSD's so thats a plus 

Anyway back to the thread....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As for breeding blue Malis and white Dobermanns, etc. most aren't recognised by the FCI and if born, will disappear before the breed inspector comes knocking. Since being on this forum I see that we have a lot more breeding restrictions here in Switzerland and in sport the Mix is very often looked down upon and, if it gets good results, the praise seems to be a bit condescending. This probably reflects back on the fact that dogs without pedigrees were only allowed to compete officially from 1982.

We have about 300 and odd clubs, all-breed working dog clubs and SV (SC), Mali, Dobermann, Rottweiler, Airedale, etc. Clubs. We have our own Schutzhund trials plus IPO, Mondioring and SAR trials.

The Tierschutzorganisation (Society of prevention of cruelty to animals) would like to forbid Schutzhund trials and IPO but we still have it. The pinch and ecollar are forbidden. There's some rivalry between Germany and Switzerland, especially with the GSDs. If we buy our GSDs in Germany we have to take them to be assessed by a Swiss show judge who certifies that this is a German Shehperd](*,) 

We have a lot of private dog schools, a lot touting for "no compulsion necessary" but also a few good trainers for Mondio, IPO, etc. Even more people visit them for various reasons: ever increasing rows and envy in the dog clubs, plus not wishing to contribute to the work necessary when we hold competitions, etc. Maybe this is the disadvantage of a small country - a person's reputation gets to the club before he or she does:mrgreen: A lot go to Big Brother, Germany, to train or to Belgium like a member of our club. Must be good - he's made it to the Swiss Team for the WUSV in October.

I think, apart from what Mike said, which explains the situation very well, that the various mentalities in the European countries make up for slight differences, plus each country's Kennel Club in how actively they support the sport.


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## Ashley Hiebing (Apr 6, 2008)

Europe is a heavenly place for working dogs, where every dog is bred to a strict set of rules and the weak are culled. The dogs are all much better workers and better looking than American dogs. Every dog is much better trained because the Europeans just do it better. Oh, and all the equipment made there is indestructible, so don't even try buying anything else. You'll have to pay big money to import everything, because it's just so much better. And if it comes from Germany, well, that's just the best of the best.

... this post was made with tongue firmly lodged in cheek. =P But honestly, to hear some dog people talk, that's what Europe's dog world is really like. Somehow I don't believe it =P


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> But in Europe you will never see a blue Malinois or a white Doberman and you can actually find Boxers that work. What I see is the assumed quality of everything Euro is assumed to be on a higher level than similar dogs from North America. I know that hype says that, but in reality a well bred litter is a well bred litter no matter where it is from.


Man, I must have been ripped off because my blue Malinois came with SCC papers and flew on plane from France. Either someone went to a lot of trouble to change his AKC registration to SCC and then flew him from the USA to France so they could fake his import or maybe I better go get the shampoo and give him a good scrubbing to see if I can get the blue dye off.

Lisa


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## Greg Williams (Aug 5, 2007)

When I first got into dogsports I belonged to a club with 4 or 5 very skilled decoys. These guys taught me what I know today about working a dog in a suit. Since then, the training director has passed on on and as a result the club has disbanded and went there own way.
It's been about 3 years now And the big difference I'm seeing between European and American dog culture is the lack of dedication to the dog sport lifestyle. As was said earlier, most of the people in my club now are pet dog owners who want something to do with there dogs. In most cases the dogs aren't cut out for the work. which is unfortunate b/c these people seem dedicated. Then you have the other pet owners, the ones who have very nice dogs but lack the dedication. They just want their dog to bite a few times then leave. I can't tell you how many new, probationary club members I turn away each year because of this. 
The final issue, and my biggest issue which has had me ready to give up dogsports on more then one occassion is the lack of decoys. I'll get a young club member who wants to learn to decoy. Either they learn very fast it's a lot tougher then it looks, or they think they are better then they are so they go to start their own thing, never to be heard from again. Very rare is the decoy who sticks around for any amount of time.
In my trips to Europe I've found that there are always decoys available to work dogs. Dog training and dogsports in general are a social event. The clubs I've been to have a well kept field, a cantina where club members hang out, have a few beers and talk dogs. 
I went to the 2001 KNPV Nationals and it was a full on event. Crowds filled one side of the stadium. Again just a few years later I was at an event that included IPO, Ring, Herding, and Agility and again, lots of people..... lots of support! 
In my area, people want to work there dogs and leave. Not realizing they could learn a ton if they would just stick around and watch, listen.
This is just my take and my experiences.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Nope, all that scrubbing and he is still blue. Either I got ripped off or they do have blue Malinois in Europe!

Lisa


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Anna:

I enjoyed reading your post of down memory lane, regarding dogs in Russia. (I actually had a little gsd from Russia.... and I still hold him close to my heart) I loved reading it!

One of the things that has been well pointed out in several of these european posts is that europeans seem to understand a higher level of accountability with having a dog on the most part. 

In europe, if you walk inside somewhere with your dog and it makes a mistake... you'd better correct your dog and make many apologies. The owner will look very bad for bringing his dog into someone's establishment, and have the furniture or wall used for a toilet by the dog. And the rest of the patrons will point it out and chastise the dog's owner.

In America, when someone brings their dog into an establishment that allows dogs(very few do); and their dogs makes potty, the owner will often pretend that it didn't happen and walk away. On-lookers do not want to make a scene and it is up to the poor property owner or his employees to clean it up. 

Yes, Jane... Americans have gotten away from a good and service-able dog because they cling tightly to their "unconditional" love regardless. And to some American's, love is bought. And there are plenty of people willing to sell "love" (a puppy) because there isn't a strict code for breeding. And a pet person's idea of unconditional love means to buy and give the dog everything available. 

But we do have a strong vein of working dog people that are determined to chip away at the pet perception, and also not even sell one of these dogs to a pet person with the wrong and unnatural perception of how to keep a dog. (and this is very hard for breeders) And we to uphold the european philosophy because that is what made our good dogs, good dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: My friend Ted who bought BB off you last year had a 20 hour drive to attend our seminar a few weeks ago. To bad as BB has so much potential it is crazy.

Considering Sandro was SUPPOSED to give the dog to me, it is good to hear about him. That litter was really nice. 

I remember Michelle calling me and telling me how Flip wouldn't let her help, and was a bit nuts and one puppy was screaming in the crate.............guess which one????


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have found that with the "movie mentality" that we have here in the states, (over in an hour and a half and a happy ending to boot) dogsports will never ever be very big without a drastic change. A couple friends and I have been talking about how to evolve correctly and it is definately a bigger thing than we originally thought of.

I have not yet, to date, visited a club here in the states that was on it's own property, with it's own clubhouse and field. So, we were talking about that, and how to go about doing something like that, and we were able to come up with even more problems.

We were talking about all the crybaby decoys that want to get paid, as this seems to be a fairly current trend, and THAT was interesting.

We talked about getting serious sponsorship, and BIG CASH PAYOUTS, so it would be worth it for poor people like me to actually make an effort.:lol: :lol: :lol: 

We talked about getting a different political affiliation, as the AKC is ****ing worthless, might as well jack off with a sandpaper glove. This is a really personal subject for me, as we have all these "dogsport" orginizations that want you to join, but are a waste of time and money as the AKC has the final say, and the breed clubs that controls our breeds is run by show people, but we must all still bow to their Holiness or whatever.

If we think about the fact that somehow, a "registry" became the most powerful orginization in dogs, you got to wonder what the **** were we thinking? ? ? ? So now, years later, we are kissing their ass for............ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Is it that way in Europe?????


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: My friend Ted who bought BB off you last year had a 20 hour drive to attend our seminar a few weeks ago. To bad as BB has so much potential it is crazy.
> 
> Considering Sandro was SUPPOSED to give the dog to me, it is good to hear about him. That litter was really nice.
> 
> I remember Michelle calling me and telling me how Flip wouldn't let her help, and was a bit nuts and one puppy was screaming in the crate.............guess which one????


No doubt Jeff! Small world. That dog has the shit that's for sure. He is in a great home now but Ted just doesn't have the help to grow him where he lives. There is only so much he can do by himself. I'm still trying to talk him into moving his business up here or at least moving up for a couple months to work with us next spring. BB has the potential to go all the way working with the decoys in our club. Big Grips and over the top athletism and natural obedience to please the handler. Cripes first day at our seminar on the Palisade he was doing 2.2m like nothing. He would be a handler trainers dream. I'd take him in a heartbeat!


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> No doubt Jeff! Small world. That dog has the shit that's for sure. He is in a great home now but Ted just doesn't have the help to grow him where he lives. There is only so much he can do by himself. I'm still trying to talk him into moving his business up here or at least moving up for a couple months to work with us next spring. BB has the potential to go all the way working with the decoys in our club. Big Grips and over the top athletism and natural obedience to please the handler. Cripes first day at our seminar on the Palisade he was doing 2.2m like nothing. He would be a handler trainers dream. I'd take him in a heartbeat!


It is a small world indeed, as BB's father BB is a full brother from a later litter to my blue boy Villier. I am interested to hear how the BB kids turn out as we have recently begun introducing some new bloodlines into our breeding program and the CdH kennel is one of them. BB is a dog of much character and very resilient to pressure from the decoy and the handler (I think this handler hardness is somewhat uncommon in the breed). However, BB is independent in nature which makes his handler hardness a bit of a pain in the a**. My boy Villier is hard to correction but very into and responsive to the handler. 

Several of our BB pups were a bit more independent than we prefer but overall the character was very, very nice. Our litter with Villier is just under 8 weeks and Michael reports the pack drive is very, very high. Higher than he has had in a litter in some time actually. Personally, I would rather have a handler responsive dog who may fall into the handler sensitive category than a handler hard dog who is independent. Nothing annoys me more than having to pick a dog up and bounce it for the same thing twice. To me the perfect dog would be handler respsonsive yet rather resilient to pressure so it is nice to hear BB's son has "natural obedience to please the handler". 

Lisa


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have found that with the "movie mentality" that we have here in the states, (over in an hour and a half and a happy ending to boot) dogsports will never ever be very big without a drastic change. A couple friends and I have been talking about how to evolve correctly and it is definately a bigger thing than we originally thought of.
> 
> I have not yet, to date, visited a club here in the states that was on it's own property, with it's own clubhouse and field. So, we were talking about that, and how to go about doing something like that, and we were able to come up with even more problems.


To me that is not a unsurmountable goal there is lots of dual purpose sports facilities out there we can use rugby, soccer and sod farm facilities pretty easily. The key is treating these places and properties with respect as to keep them until the sport can be grown. There is a a few private fields with club houses (with toilets as well) Usually ShH but they are out there. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We were talking about all the crybaby decoys that want to get paid, as this seems to be a fairly current trend, and THAT was interesting.


Yes the real good decoys all want like minimum $75 bucks to work a dog for 20 minutes. To me that is a big barrier as then it doesn't matter how much potential a dog has, it then just matters how much warbucks a handler has in the chest to hire the best training decoy for a few months a year to work on problems. 

A dedicated club decoy that stays the long term and helps out all the dogs without a "what's in it for me" attitude. You gotta treat them like gold! But yet that is more the norm in Euro. More about the dogs than about $$. What I see anyways. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We talked about getting serious sponsorship, and BIG CASH PAYOUTS, so it would be worth it for poor people like me to actually make an effort.:lol: :lol: :lol:


Now this is a Mountain to climb and a freakin rocky one too! We tried to get $200 or $300 from Royal Canin even though they sponsor big time dog sports in Euro. It was like pulling teeth and then to get nothing in the end was puzzling and really makes you wonder. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We talked about getting a different political affiliation, as the AKC is ****ing worthless, might as well jack off with a sandpaper glove. This is a really personal subject for me, as we have all these "dogsport" orginizations that want you to join, but are a waste of time and money as the AKC has the final say, and the breed clubs that controls our breeds is run by show people, but we must all still bow to their Holiness or whatever.
> 
> If we think about the fact that somehow, a "registry" became the most powerful orginization in dogs, you got to wonder what the **** were we thinking? ? ? ? So now, years later, we are kissing their ass for............ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?


The CKC is somewhat easier to deal with as they haven't been corrupted by PETA and HSUS but they are still overrun by conformation people who won't give the time of day to anything but show. All the working sports i.e herding, ShH, Ring etc are only in maybe 1-2% of the total membership I'd say. So that is where the cash goes. 

The ACA though is a different story and I have no problem to support this organization. http://www.acavet.com/ They gave us $300 sponsorship to help defray the costs for our trial. They are more than willing to help out working dog sports from the grassroots level. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Is it that way in Europe?????


Somehow I doubt that with all the clubs and history behind it. In Europe dog sports are there to stay. Here we just hang on.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Nope, all that scrubbing and he is still blue. Either I got ripped off or they do have blue Malinois in Europe!


Try a shave and hair dye as it grows in, maybe then you 'll have better luck getting the conformation look that you seek. Good luck!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Here (Holland), if you walk away if you have worked your dog and you do that several times, you're not welcome on a club anymore. Dogsport is a clubthing, so you watch all the dogs, do your chores (canteen, help put objects in the field and pick them up again, decoying, help train others etc.) and enjoy and learn from others.

I know IPO clubs when if your late for tracking, you're not allowed to do manwork etc.

This mentality measn that it takes a lot of your free time, but it is worth it. We train on wednesday from about 16.00 till 22.00 and sundays from 11.00-18.30. There is a lot of talking (dogs and training them mostly, but also socially) and coffeebreaks. For us it's a 45 minute drive since our move, other in our club drive 1 hour.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

While history plays a big role in it -- can you imagine what the dog sports would be like in the US if everybody that was into working dogs in the entire country moved to a state, say, the size of Texas??? Or perhaps moved to the FL/GA area? Suddenly the money would be there to do it all. Private properties, club houses etc. But scattering 50 people here and there with 10 hours between them does nothing. Look at the national trials and how many people show up, its pitiful, but not many people are going to fly 2000 miles to attend a trial. Either they have lives that don't free the time, the cost is too high, they can't board their dogs for whatever reason (how many kennels are out there that aren't foofoo retard kennels and doggy daycare centers?? I sure wouldn't know where to board my dogs). For whatever reason, the distance makes it hard to catch up on the history. If everyone lived in one place the picture would be very different.

Texas is about 700,000 square kilometers, thats roughly twice the size of Germany.

I'd bet you that suddenly things would look a lot different. Why did I do IPO in Florida even though I can't really stand the sport? Because... well.. what the hell else was I gonna do???

Suit sports have always been where my heart is. I wanted to do ASR before it collapsed. That was why I got Lyka. IPO was something I got talked into. I'd bet that a lot of people would switch to Mondio if it was more available, better organized and the quality of training was there to back it up.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Yes the real good decoys all want like minimum $75 bucks to work a dog for 20 minutes. 

I would so tell them to **** off. LOL. At this point my dog knows more than a lot of the decoys I have seen. :-$ :-$ 

Quote: The CKC is somewhat easier to deal with as they haven't been corrupted by PETA and HSUS but they are still overrun by conformation people who won't give the time of day to anything but show. All the working sports i.e herding, ShH, Ring etc are only in maybe 1-2% of the total membership I'd say. So that is where the cash goes.

This is where we are ****ing up in my opinion. Here in the states, the people who decide things about the Mal are show people. Working dog people are too busy argueing over wether the bark and hold really shows power (it doesn't) or if it shows training, (it does) it is cool that you found an orginization that will help.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: No doubt Jeff! Small world. That dog has the shit that's for sure.

Sandro and I discussed the breeding of his mother, as she was originally sold to a Sch judge who wanted to do agility. As you can imagine she was too much for agility. She was punished for biting.....so you can imagine what she was like when we first started working her. I can tell you one thing, she has a temper, and is really athletic. She can HOP a 6 foot fence.

Kadi has her now, I am still waiting for BB to get bred to her again......Kadi ? ? ? Most of what I saw with that litter was her for sure. I never got to really see BB's personality, but then again, I didn't have time to like I did with Flip. He was in San Diego, and I was in Colorado.

If it is true what I hear, and BB is no longer a dog we can use, it is a sad day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Now this is a Mountain to climb and a freakin rocky one too! We tried to get $200 or $300 from Royal Canin even though they sponsor big time dog sports in Euro. It was like pulling teeth and then to get nothing in the end was puzzling and really makes you wonder. 

I am not sure how strong a footing they have here, but typically dog food companies I have talked to do not want to waste their time on small potatoes like working dog people......especially as there are many that feed raw, as well as we cannot affect their bottom line one way or the other. Not like they were mean or abrupt.

With all the Bullshit drama that goes on, I cannot believe that there is not a TV show . I know I could get money for that shit.:-$:idea:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: . I'd bet that a lot of people would switch to Mondio if it was more available, better organized and the quality of training was there to back it up.

This is something that I have been thinking about quite a bit. I will PM you what I come up with.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

A TV show??? Are you kidding me?? Do you know how much organization goes into a TV show? Most people can't even seem to organize a dog club properly, let alone organize a TV show about a dog club!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is where we are ****ing up in my opinion. Here in the states, the people who decide things about the Mal are show people. Working dog people are too busy argueing over wether the bark and hold really shows power (it doesn't) or if it shows training, (it does) it is cool that you found an orginization that will help.


Up here the Working Border Collie people refused to join the CKC as they didn't want the conformation people to turn a working dog into a Frankenstein floofy no brain nervous bag of crap. That is something that all the Working Malinois people should take a look at from how the working BC people led that way to just say 'NO' to conformation. 

It was only last year when the BC was allowed to compete in conformation with the CKC. Much to the dismay of the working BC people. Interesting stuff and shows that some people still have the nuts to stand up for what is right for a breed.

http://members.shaw.ca/briarlane/BC FAQ.html 

After seeing the Malinois video at the Westminster show. I was shocked and dismayed by the obvious swing away from breeding to be able to do meaningful work that those dog's owners were bent on. We are talking 2nd or maybe 3rd generation from Euro stock and even the look of the dogs are starting to change.

It's Scary stuff. That most likely wouldn't even lift it's ugly head in Europe. At least not to the point of killing off workability like the ASSline GSD.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

After reading all the posts on American Dog Sport facilities I guess we should be all so much more content and satisfied with our lot over here, although I can only speak for Switzerland.

What Selena van Leuwen said about the club life is what I like about dog sport, plus the discipline. At temperatures well below freezing in Winter, the handlers have to stay outside until the biting session is over - watching each dog being worked as the helper says why should I freeze my a..... off whilst you're inside drinking hot toddies. At our club we also have a rule, no obedience training, no biting.

What we could use more of is the "family spirit" which very often doesn't exist. The elitists feel they are doing enough for the club by representing it so they don't join in with helping the weaker ones or with the work. Running trials needs a lot of helpers and the elitists are usually competing, taking advantage of home ground even though that's misleading.

As performance deamnds increase so do the demands for better helpers. Word spreads around that one is good at trials but not at building up the pup. We have around 50 licensed decoys and probably as many ore more non-licensed.

When I started dog sport a good few years ago, we had more team spirit, we'd sit around after a trial, sup ourselves silly, laugh at our failures and enjoy the others' success and still go to work the next day. Now, as soon as the last team leaves the field, most of them are moaning that the ranking is taking too long and some want to leave beforehand. Then after the ranking ceremony they all rush off leaving us to clear up the mess - but we keep doing it, year for year:mrgreen:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> as the helper says why should I freeze my a..... off whilst you're inside drinking hot toddies


Oh yeah, because thats fair... the decoy gets to run around warming up his body temp while everyone else gets to sit there freezing their asses off 

Club spirit only works if you like the people at the club. Some people are club people by nature and others aren't. I'm not, but I make it work if I like the people I have to spend time with. I'd rather pay someone I like, than spend time with people I don't.

Selena, your club doesn't count, it has 4 members and one is your husband. I'd be out there training from sun up till sun down too if I got to work with people I liked and the person I was married to :lol: Plus with less people, you are working your own dogs most of the day, not twiddling your thumbs while 20 other dogs are working. I'm sure that if you had the choice between going to a different club with 20 dogs or training in your private group, you'd pick the latter too


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Selena, your club doesn't count, it has 4 members and one is your husband. I'd be out there training from sun up till sun down too if I got to work with people I liked and the person I was married to :lol: Plus with less people, you are working your own dogs most of the day, not twiddling your thumbs while 20 other dogs are working. I'm sure that if you had the choice between going to a different club with 20 dogs or training in your private group, you'd pick the latter too


Actually there are 6 members: we, our 2 best friends (couple) and 2 others. We have 12 dogs in our club: 6 are ours, 3 from the other couple, 1 of the young helper and 2 of the other female member. Except the dogs from the female member, all dogs are bred by us or from our bloodline. All the dogs are a bit ours to


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

4... 6... same thing  I count couples as one. Dogs come from the same household 

Ben er waarschijnlijk rond 1 uur of zo. Probeer hier te vertrekken na de spitz.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

@ Mike, wear jeans...it's really puppy pen suicide at the moment..


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Puppy pen suicide??

We will never know if Mike tripped and fell in accidentaly, or if he was pushed... :lol:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh come on now, don't give them ideas! Yeesh...

I have my kevlar lined leg sleeves in the car and a lil pack of corks to put on their teeth


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Selena, will you take photos while Mike is putting the corks on their teeth? That would be an interesting one to watch. :grin:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I substituted corks for fingers. Apparently they work equally well.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Other than dog sports being more known about and bigger in Europe, my observations are that: it's not too different.
> 
> I know breeders who cull litters and all sorts in the US just as I do in Europe. There are many shelter dogs and equivalent animal rights organizations as there are in the US. There are a lot of people who are anti-correction, pro-halti, just like in the US. There are people who are hard and soft on their dogs, just like the US. There are lots of people who love and spoil their foofoo dogs, just like in the US. There are lots of breeders breeding crap dogs, just like the US. There are breeders producing really great dogs, just like the US. There are good trainers, just like the US. There are bad trainers, just like the US.
> 
> The proportions and numbers may be different, but all of the mentalities exist on both continents.


Bingo!

The proportions of these people may vary from country to country and even state to state, but they are all there.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Jane King said:


> The older I get, the more I think dogs are happiest being dogs and the best way to avoid destroying 750 healthy dogs a week is to pick a dog that is bred for a purpose; use it for that purpose, or something that can replicate the physical and mental demands of it and be happy with what you've gotO Otherwise, get a goldfish.


You miserable old git....I agree completely!


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## Jane King (Nov 24, 2007)

Being called a 'miserable old git' in England really means you have really made it in the world of dogs!!! 

Having read through this topic, I suspect the difference in people's approach to dogs and training between rural and urban and between pet and working are greater than the over all differneces in attitudes between countries and continents.

Misery aside: I love being a decoy! How anyone could be selfish enough to want money for it is beyond me. I offered to do it straight away when I started training my dog in return for the time other club members were prepared to give up helping me.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ian Forbes said:


> You miserable old git....I agree completely!



:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

having just re-read one of J. Herriot's books out of sheer lack of anything else to read, i'm thinking that "you miserable old git" may not be the worst thing to be called as long as you're not of the bovine persuasion.

IOW, kinda like my kids telling me i'm a mserable old *** for not letting them drive my car. but i love Herriot, i don't care what anyone says. so THERE. 

not that this has anything to do with the OT...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> but i love Herriot, i don't care what anyone says. so THERE.
> 
> ...


So do I.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

ann freier said:


> having just re-read one of J. Herriot's books out of sheer lack of anything else to read, i'm thinking that "you miserable old git" may not be the worst thing to be called as long as you're not of the bovine persuasion.
> 
> IOW, kinda like my kids telling me i'm a mserable old *** for not letting them drive my car. but i love Herriot, i don't care what anyone says. so THERE.
> 
> not that this has anything to do with the OT...


James Herriot is still enjoyed by dog lovers. Reading your post makes me want to re-read his books also. One of the BT pups from our last litter is named Tumbleweed Holidays with Pay call name "James" in honor of Herriot.

Lisa


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> James Herriot is still enjoyed by dog lovers. Reading your post makes me want to re-read his books also. One of the BT pups from our last litter is named Tumbleweed Holidays with Pay call name "James" in honor of Herriot.
> 
> Lisa


I still want to name a pup Tristan if I ever get one from a "T" litter.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Question: Does Euro have as big of a problem as we do with Back Yard Breeders and puppy mills?

Working at a vet hospital I see almost a new "breed" of small puppy come in every week. They mix a bunch of little things together a make a new "designer dog" that they can sell for more. 

I hear of a lot of people buying their GS's from backyard breeders and even puppy stores. Most of them have such poor genetics that they are lucky if their bodies could even handle doing work. Let alone have the drives to do such work.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Question: Does Euro have as big of a problem as we do with Back Yard Breeders and puppy mills?


Nope. Europe is perfect, everyone is moral, nobody cares about money, and everybody knows about dogs and breeding. All dogs are trained perfectly and it's just a much happier place. Dogs are all healthy and genetically sound. Everybody picks up dog poop off the sidewalk. Nobody drives while talking on the cell phone, and toilet paper is a thing of the past because the shit just comes out squeeky clean.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> and toilet paper is a thing of the past because the shit just comes out squeeky clean.


To bad all the farting gives everyone's true intentions away ..


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jamielee Nelson said:


> Question: Does Euro have as big of a problem as we do with Back Yard Breeders and puppy mills?
> 
> Working at a vet hospital I see almost a new "breed" of small puppy come in every week. They mix a bunch of little things together a make a new "designer dog" that they can sell for more.
> 
> I hear of a lot of people buying their GS's from backyard breeders and even puppy stores. Most of them have such poor genetics that they are lucky if their bodies could even handle doing work. Let alone have the drives to do such work.


there are puppymills, for sure in Holland and Belgium:sad: probably other countries to. More for the popular breeds like labs, and littel (mix) breeds like shitzu' s etc.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> there are puppymills, for sure in Holland and Belgium:sad: probably other countries to. More for the popular breeds like labs, and littel (mix) breeds like shitzu' s etc.


I wasn’t sure if it was as prevalent as here
Interesting


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I think it has more to do with the people involved more so than the country they live in, there are puppy mills everywhere.

And any person with average intelligence should be able to tell the difference.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think it has more to do with the people involved more so than the country they live in, there are puppy mills everywhere.
> 
> And any person with average intelligence should be able to tell the difference.


Hit the nail on the head there. The biggest problem is that common sense isn't all that common....

Here in the UK we have 'Puppy Farms' - usually lots of breeds, kept as per intensive livestock with minimal room, no social contact and bred every cycle. The puppies are usually moved on via brokers and pet stores.

Lots of BYBs (breed whatever they have to whatever they can get to mate it). Big increase recently in mutts being given silly names and called 'designer dogs'.


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