# Roll up and throw your ideas into the hat



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

What do you think is going on with this 6 month sold pup?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggw9BfvGH_8

Thanks in advance


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

if you goal is a freindly to dogs pet i tihink 
its just a leash deffence issue dont fight it with a leash.
use a flaxi or long line. 
use safe freindly dogs and muzzle if you want saftey. when he want to pull toward the dogs just let him dont hold him back if he act trully agressive correct him hard i whould use e collar for it but only on true agression do not corect on warning signs or playing wierd.

after he become freinds with indevidual dog and start playing with him take him back on leash then let him pull for playing with him. do it with alot of dogs when he start pulling for play you can demand another controlled behavior like sit and focus that will gain him the playing or freindly interaction.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the reply 
It's not my dog.
I am more asking "where do you think this aggression is coming from in terms of headspace/psychology" rather than how to deal with it per se.


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Matt Vandart said:


> > Thanks for the reply
> >
> >
> >
> > ...


notice the shiny grey quote above 
its new trick to me.

well as i wrote to me its a classic on leash deffence agression created bossted and locked by the tense of the leash. thats why corection with pulling is not effective all the time.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I don't think it is much of an issue, probably didn't have any socialization when young and holding him back increase the intensity, I would muzzle him and find some neutral dog and just let him get close to the other dogs, if he really have aggression then you are safe with the muzzle and I would choke him until he calms down but I don't think that would be the case.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the replies again 
I agree its not a major issue, up until he left me he was a very confident and social puppy. Grew up with all my dogs about him, so other dogs is not new to him. He met loads of people and dogs before he left at 12 weeks. 
Most odd indeed.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

From what I saw, it looks like frustration... he really wants to go see the other dog, but is being held back. How is he when allowed to interact with other dogs? He looks indifferent to the yellow dog in the video.

The way the handler reacts at about 1:30 in the video looks just like what we did for drive building for the tug.... 

Add in a bit of handler tenseness at the approach of other dogs, then restraint. What would happen if he let the loose dog approach and didn't yank back on the leash? Just let it go slack and let the dogs meet? 

I can only relate to my experience with my Mal - if allowed, he is a complete and utter bonehead when he sees another dog. Bark, shriek, scramble, lunge... completely embarrassing. All this despite being allowed to run and play with other dogs as he grew up. He still is very interested in other dogs, but also capable of focusing intently on me and working around all kinds of chaos. But that took some maturity and me tapping into his drive and learning how to be a better handler/trainer.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It looks to me that (possibly) the dog is bored and has a tendency to become or is somewhat frustrated. I cannot say that for certain if that's the issue here. I mention it because I see is this relatively slow and endless heeling, feeding, then when something really interesting comes a long it appears there's an expression of great interest. I don't get the sense that it looks like it currently is a problem (certainly not ideal) but could potentially manifest into one if not addressed.

The statement Leslie made about holding the dog back looks to be similar to how people frustrate pups to build intensity.. me adding here, it's happening without evidence of immediate and impressionable consequence to end it - if his behavior is something they want stomped out that is… and adding more that there's more than one way to do this, letting him explore safely would be one. Perhaps they have formed an opinion of what they believe they are seeing and assume it's something other than is. Perhaps their experience with working dogs is limited and they've seen too much of other "aggressive" biting behaviors that they automatically assume he is going to do. Many moving parts here. 

It appears to look like drive for something has become verboten and as such has been not particularly well managed. To that end it has increased in expression. I'm also keeping something else in mind because he reminds me of what appears to be Sali's general compliance in trained behaviors. She's always struck me as a dog that has learned to work in a relatively selfish way and it appears he's following suit.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto on lack of socialization.

Possibly put in high level distractions to early.

Reaction to other dogs seems stronger when the leash is tightened up as soon as handlers see the other dog.

The male handler walks the dog with the leash behind him and the leash is almost constantly tight then.

Lack of attention on the handler unless the dog has a high level reward coming such as food or thrown item. 

Handler using a "down" command for both a down and getting the dog off the wall.

Lack of effective consequence when the dog goes after another dog or person. 

Most of this all boils down to the handlers needing guidance and consistency . They seem to be new to dog ownership.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

tx for posting this informative video 

- does the pup now act like this with you too when you have the lead ?
- will the new owners join the WDF and are they willing go try a new approach ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

before nicole says i'm being obtuse again.... 
- whether the comments and advice is valid or not, "throwing ideas in a hat" is nothing more than a doggy chat line

as of now we don't know, but if the owners think they have a problem and want to fix it, they need to participate in a two way conversation and be willing to try a new approach since what they have done so far is producing what this video shows and should not be considered acceptable canine behavior.

whether it is the dog or the handler remains to be seen...and why i asked my question to Matt

it's also particularly informative that bits of nice focus and off leash behavior is mixed in with the video. what that shows me is probably completely different than how the owners view it, and that's a big reason why i think they need to show up....with an open mind


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> tx for posting this informative video
> 
> - does the pup now act like this with you too when you have the lead ?


I was just about to ask him the same thing. 

If that has not been explored yet and he has access to do so, I would like to see what that looks like and how Matt deals with it. 

I'm mostly interested in seeing whether or not he would be able to work with the the dog in a manner to prevent it from occurring to begin with or if not, then could he quickly shut it down. 

Course if that wasn't his desired approach then what might become of an introduction to another or other neutral dogs under Matt's control/supervision. 

If I were to guess he is already working on addressing what's going on at the handler end of things. As Matt said he was interested in getting feedback about what people thought might be the source of the behavior. It's usually more complex than that (singular in cause); having said that, Matt works his own craft and I respect that.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the input again!

Not been near the dog since he left at 12 weeks.
Owners didn't make the vid, they contacted me when they had an issue, the vid is made up of clips I was sent separately, any order they are in is purely how I randomly put them in the vid making program before uploading.
Yellow dog he seems not bothered by is their other dog.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I wonder if what is happening is a bit of adjustment to having a young, high drive, high energy, slightly reactive young dog after having a "good" dog. Yellow dog looks pretty easy going, just puttering around and able to be off leash without a lot of direction. 

He looks like he's doing a lot of training and having fun with the pup. Some dogs are just not meant to go everywhere, do everything and remain calm and laid back.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

If it were true aggression there would have been a fight when the dog went out to retrieve the ring with the other dog in the area a long way from the owner. I don't see a big problem. I think the dog is social and would rather be with other dogs than the handler sometimes. My boy is a lot like this dog and it's a PITA sometimes. On lead he's fine but off lead he'll do his best to interact with other dogs.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Khoi
did you see the vids when Matt was socializing this pup ?

Howard
i think Matt said the other dog lives with this pup and they're buddies. that would seem to explain why the handler wasn't concerned about the ring toss

Matt 
how concerned are the owners about their inability to control their pup around strange dogs ?

the owners need to join and get help if they want it. regardless of what is in that pup's headspace and what it might be thinking when the issues are being filmed


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re :"Some dogs are just not meant to go everywhere, do everything and remain calm and laid back."
for SURE !

that's why a recall is a basic requirement and should be solid before allowing a dog too much freedom to scramble around on its own.

the fetching, weaving thru legs and handler focus clips are nice, but I wonder if this pup has one yet ?
my guess is....no 
but it demonstrates where the owners training priorities are now

in my opinion a recall is not just to prevent a dog being hit by a car


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Sefi

your suggestion about using a long line is definitely one way to do it and have some control if needed
it gives you a way to run up the line if there is a problem

i'm curious. do you use a long line to teach a recall and would you suggest this pup learn a recall now ?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick, I think I know where you are going with this - as in a recall is a recall, is a recall is a recall. It (recall) means being able to call the dog off irrespective of whatever is going on and get in line (in line is basically subjective positioning). 

Since there appears to be a perception of schism and ill matched ideas probably because my way of talking doesn't mesh with your vernacular (though I will always contend that we agree on things far more than you realize)... I am basically saying that since this dog isn't tractable under the circumstances seen then fundamentally the dog doesn't have a solid recall.

Are we on the same page with this? I think we may be, particularly given your comment about where their priorities appear to be. I'm just not sure that people make the connection that a recall *may* in fact be all encompassing and is far much more reaching than what some may believe it to be.

Or is your interest in the recall more basic than I am interpreting your commentary to be about?

MATT - (side note) just because I wrote that (above) just know that it doesn't mean or shouldn't be interpreted to infer that I have formed impressions about the owners of this dog. I am only directing this at rick because something he said caught my attention and I wanted clarification.


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> rick smith said:
> 
> 
> > Sefi
> ...


the dog that get all diffence on the tention of the leash its a common classic problem. for new handlers i useally recommand not to use the leash to hold him back. it useally as howard said the simple solution to break the chain and solve the problem.

sometimes the agression that allready been imprint need to be solved aswell. if so i useally recommand correction on the real agrresion (real attack) action if its take place near the other dog and not a recall - i want to teach him that the problem and the solution is with his behavior and not - a problem with the other dog and a solution with the handler - you will stop attacking right there and now than your problem is solved and not attack and than get back to me for safty. with that said recall is a great tool to help a dog like this to make good healthy relationships with other dogs when we feel tension with our dog that he dont knows to neutrelized or that our dog dont read the other dog signles or tension we can control the situation by calling him and break up the tension and start from 0. maybe that what you meant Rick?

to your question Rick. i think a recall is allways good for the dog to know. it usefull and deeper the bond with the handler. it also give the handler control on situations and so make him more at ease and that is also affect the dog.
and there is no too early age to teach recall.
i use for a recall long line or short line or dont use line at all what i feel better for the dog and owner and what i feel like as long as it healthy and good.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The dog has a good recall (they say), they have used it on occasion when he has been off lead and a dog appears.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Sefi

sorry but been busy and wanted to answer your question fully….and not give a short answer

- i feel a recall is necessary for EXACTLY the same two reasons you wrote. for ALL dogs. in your work you might call a recall a “call off”, but i’m sure u know how important it is to recall a dog that might be targeting the wrong person, to bring a dog back to you that might be in danger if it’s left out, or if your operation priority changes quickly, etc. 
- for me, it’s just as important for pet owners, and whenever i start working with a pet owner i ask to see the recall. everyone says it’s “good", but that usually just means the dog will sit or down and the owner can walk away and call it to get a treat, etc. But as soon as high level distractions are placed on the dog, the recall evaporates  It also shows me what kind of bond the owner has with their dog and how much they trust and respect each other.

- i also know solid recalls are difficult to train WELL because it requires a LOT of control over a big area to get it solid and 100% reliable, and keep it safe during the drills. few pet owners can set that up without help from other trainers with other dogs, other animals, other people, etc.
- but even tho it’s hard to train at a high level, the effort is well worth the time invested because it helps ALL other aspects of training
- of course if the dog had a PERFECT recall, a lead would never be necessary //LOL// ….I’m not that much of a perfectionist, but i do work on recalls more than other trainer. so you can call me a recall freak ….HaHaHa 

i’m more impressed watching a great recall or a send out and call off than i am watching a great takedown  i’ve even offered to send free dog gear (postage paid from Japan) to members posting a vid of a great recall for their pet dog. not many people are that interested in how to teach a strong recall even tho everyone says to start when the dog is young. that of course is the easy part; when you start to raise the bar high, it’s another thing totally 

- if this pup’s owners would have joined the WDF and participated i would have made them the same offer.

Nicole....i'm pretty sure we're on the same page regarding the benefits of a recall but not sure where a call off ranks for you compared to a nice take down


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

What do I win  ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axg5h7MQhHg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1IAOlZ8B-g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JbLOYekdps

If I remember correctly he does a all off with the pup in his vid.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh, here's another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU2KxfV94Gc


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

> rick smith said:
> 
> 
> > Sefi
> ...


recall its no doubt the "general" of all commands.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> What do I win  ?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axg5h7MQhHg
> 
> ...



TOTAL respect!=D>

That is exactly what I want, and have in my dogs.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Nicole....i'm pretty sure we're on the same page regarding the benefits of a recall but not sure where a call off ranks for you compared to a nice take down


On video they are equally impressive, especially if the take down is a result of power and commitment and not just an issue of momentum and someone getting off balance.

I've had to call my dogs off of things that could kill them so when for example you have a shot ring out, a bear on it's way down, a dog that is enroute to engage and it calls off, impressive is not the even right word to describe it. It's hard to put words to that experience - the right ones anyway.

I'm probably not a good person to ask that question to be honest.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Matt
if i remember correctly we saw this pup when you were socialising it and many members praised you for the great job you were doing.....me included

fast forward a few months to a new owner with the same pup and two respected members have said it's now a lack of socialisation 

since i've been a member here, i can't ever remember seeing a post that shows a pup both being socialised by the breeder and then the same pup being worked by their new owner a few months later

but my gut feeling tells me if they were as proud of their pup's recall as much as they were with the other clips they filmed, they would have sent some to you

tx for posting the vids. if i was running an online recall contest, you'd be in first place


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

by the way Matt

since you were wondering "what's in this pup's head" rather than inviting the owners to join and participate :

i would say the pup is simply expressing it's lack of respect for the owner and showing a punk attitude about its frustrating inability to self satisfy. which is amplified every time the owner pulls harder rather than deliver a crisp correction on a flat collar. weak yanking and cranking rarely gets results and most dogs quickly get conditioned to ignore them and imprints the bad behavior :-(

call it barrier frustration, getting defensive, punkish, asshattish or whatever....since the owners didn't care enuff to take five min and show up, why should we keep talking to each other ??


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

That was what I thought myself Rick, it's like "Sali 2 point oh" 
That was the point of the thread, to make sure I was reading it right, not seen the dog in real life yet.

Thanks Bob 

By the way Hector is pretty awesome these days.

For anyone interested here is the pups playlist. There are subtle cues in there that he was could turn out a ****head and I did appraise the owners of this at the time. He was IMO the best pup in the litter, I would have kept him but for the fact I was keeping a female.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPrJiHMXGrA&list=PL8uivWNc8_ITGYj4XU8xo2rjg41Gp6ufm


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Which color collar was he originally? I remember them by that and maybe it's in noted in the play list? I looked back through your posts and think I know which one he was but I want to be sure.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Black Collar male


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When he was a pup Mr Hanky was a real PIA.....in a good way of course. 

Seems when you offered him that cute little pink fuzzy thing he preferred your hand. :lol::lol:

What I love about your puppy recall is there is almost always a reward be it a kong or a tug.

It really creates that desire to be with you. BOND!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Well I got him into a cool foster/possible permanent home and seems like there is nothing wrong with him, just a bit unsure, I think it was all handler created nonsense.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good to hear!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks for the update. Were you able to lay eyes on the dog… sorry for the question I don't know how accessible he was to you. I was just curious how things played out and if you will be able to track things along.

It'd be interesting to see future updates and read back on the initial assessments to see how close of a read various people had on the snippets shared with us. It's not often we are given opportunity to do that and it would be kinda fulfilling to have that opportunity for a change.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For sure on updating us on the dog's progress with a new handler!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I didn't get to lay eyes on the dog but saw vid.
I ended up having to co-buy him with the person who has him now as I couldn't have him here because Kath is to have open heart surgery soon.
She sent me vids though and all was groovy. I'll try and capture them and post here.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Hopefully vid below


<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fnatalie.webb.10297%2Fvideos%2F10155780446864623%2F&show_text=0&width=560" width="560" height="315" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

that didnt work, here is a vid of him the evening after he was picked up, all dogs are strangers to him as is the handler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt39GFTx6eI


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I remember looking back at his videos. I was pretty sure I knew which pup he was when I asked but I wanted to be sure. In that new video he looks much the same as the original pup I commented on. Good to see he's shifted back to center again.

I hope all goes well with Kath's heart surgery.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I see no issues at all with that dog. 

Ditto on Kath's surgery! 

Fingers. eyes and toes crossed for an excellent recovery!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> that didnt work, here is a vid of him the evening after he was picked up, all dogs are strangers to him as is the handler:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt39GFTx6eI


Adding:

Hey Matt, I realize that you know it's not uncommon for dogs with previously noted issues to have those problems basically disappear in the hands of another. That said, and I don't necessarily suspect that this will happen with him, there can be a complete and disastrous turnaround with some problem dogs once they have been in the new home for a while (could be a few days to a few weeks before it's seen). He might wick up a bit but, I doubt whoever you have him with now would not be expecting the possibility of that to occur.

I only thought to mention it because I know of several instances where this has caught people off guard and the outcome wasn't good (in some cases for the dog, others for the new owner).


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah keep an eye for 30-90 days. 
I think he should be fine. When she got there to pick him up he was being a dick so she just said let the lead go and she ignored him for like 5 mins then he was her best buddy. 
He's just a dog that needs to know his place or he will think he needs to take charge I rekon.


Thnaks for the fingers crossed stuff


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

glad everyone's happy, but no group hug from me yet

lookin fwd to seeing how he acts when she has him on lead in public in the same situations we watched on the issues vid. everyone should know some dogs handle life better when off lead

NOTHING pisses me off more than an owner who dumps their dog rather than step up to the plate, swallow some humble pie, seek help and learn how to walk it properly. unfortunately i was right that he wouldn't show up here

take good care of your wife....as you already know, that's the priority right now


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

To be fair he spent a fortune on getting help, it was just not useful.

Yes, she is taking him to an agility competition this weekend,I'm sure she'll get some vid.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I believe that a dog with the right temperament and genetics will rise to the top with the right handler unless it's been terribly abused.

All I saw in the previous video was a dog that was allowed to ignore the earlier handler.

Time will tell of course.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

can't/won't speak for others, but i'm gonna refrain from talking dogs on this thread until your wife is out of the woods and back on her feet

please keep us posted


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> unfortunately i was right that he wouldn't show up here


Jeez Rick, you can be such a snarky bitch at times. Not everyone knows of this list (and I don't expect Matt to go around and telling this owner to come look you up). 



rick smith said:


> NOTHING pisses me off more than an owner who dumps their dog rather than step up to the plate, swallow some humble pie, seek help and learn how to walk it properly.


I rather the owner give their dog over to someone else that is more capable of dealing with that particular dog than have a person step outside their situation and be something they can't keep up. If this person is more suited to having a Golden then, yes, give up the one you can't deal with and stick to what you can. Would I rather the person learn to handle this dog? Sure, but I accept there are folks who ain't a Rick or a Khoi that can do it. I've gotten dogs and then passed them out to others because they didn't suit my personality or work situation. I won't get certain breeds for the same reason. Could I learn to deal with one? Yes. But I would not be happy and neither would the dog. I'm not keeping any dog just to make us both miserable.

So I take my humble pie, passed the dogs off to someone else, and now everyone is happy.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm with Sarah. Better to hand off the dog if it's not a good match. There's a big difference between dumping a dog at a shelter and returning to the breeder to be rehomed. 

Over the years, through my own dogs and the dogs I've fostered, I've learned what I want to deal with, what I can try to fix and what is a deal breaker of behaviours I don't want to have to manage for the next fifteen years. I've been in the position of saying no to a dog I fostered and knowing that in doing that, she would be euthanized. It's heart-wrenching and a decision not made lightly. 

I trust this dog's owner made the choice to do what was in the best interest of the dog.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> glad everyone's happy, but no group hug from me yet
> 
> lookin fwd to seeing how he acts when she has him on lead in public in the same situations we watched on the issues vid. everyone should know some dogs handle life better when off lead
> 
> ...


Thanks Rick


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Here's an interesting observation.
In order of having the least problem to having the most problems from Sali's litter it goes like this:

Gamekeeper and Agility judge- neither have had any issues

Vaguely experienced owner (had a gsdxhusky) but very knowledgeable on theory (and force free trainer)

New dog owners x 3 early niggles but nothing major all sorted as of now, nothing like with Mr Hanky 

Farmer that has had farm collies before. (experienced home)
Dude that had farm collies before. (experienced home) 

Who would have thunk it eh.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> Sure, but I accept there are folks who ain't a Rick or a Khoi that can do it.


Did you just use Rick and Khoi in the same sentence? Good God girl what is going on in your world? :lol:


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Did you just use Rick and Khoi in the same sentence? Good God girl what is going on in your world?


I know, I know. I agonized when I did that but considered it the two ends of the same spectrum. One says a lot, one does a lot.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> Here's an interesting observation.
> In order of having the least problem to having the most problems from Sali's litter it goes like this:
> 
> Gamekeeper and Agility judge- neither have had any issues
> ...


Maybe some of the issues have something to do with those with the farm collie experience expecting that a Malinois is just another dog. Very different from a border collie for sure. Maybe it also is due to how much time owner actually spends putting foundation on the pup? Yet always need to factor in temperament of individual pup. It would be interesting to have a matrix to see who you sent where... e.g. did you send the most independent pups to those who claimed the most experience and the softer pups elsewhere? I like watching your videos of your dogs. It is clear they mean a lot to you.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Yet always need to factor in temperament of individual pup."

I've always felt that was much more important then the breed itself.

My two GSD were similar in breeding yet were totally different in temperament and how they needed to be handled. 

Many yrs with half a dozen different terrier breeds and terrier mix breeds yet I never felt any of them were stubborn, independent, etc often connected to terriers.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> "Yet always need to factor in temperament of individual pup."
> 
> I've always felt that was much more important then the breed itself.


 I agree. Important to know/understand the breed, but see the dog in front of you.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> "Yet always need to factor in temperament of individual pup."
> 
> I've always felt that was much more important then the breed itself.
> 
> ...


You know over the years I have come to the conclusion that terriers are in a league of their own and are very difficult to nail down in normal dog "temprament" terms. I find it way more useful to talk about Terriers in terms of their personality and character.

I'll think about that matrix Meg and get back to you.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> You know over the years I have come to the conclusion that terriers are in a league of their own and are very difficult to nail down in normal dog "temprament" terms. I find it way more useful to talk about Terriers in terms of their personality and character.
> 
> I'll think about that matrix Meg and get back to you.



Good point!


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