# Expectations......



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Whether your training for sport, PPD or PSD I think it is safe to say that we all have certain expectations we want to meet before we trial, utilize the dog for personal protection or feel confident enough (in the dog and ourselves) to work the streets. I personally have seen dogs and handlers working in different venues and was left wondering - what the heck are they thinking ?...bringing that dog to a trial, thinking that dog will actually protect them or working that dog on the streets. 

There were at least 3 dogs at the SchH regionals that I attended, that I personally would have never entered. It was not like they had an "off day", as I had seen the dogs at several club level trials and they (or their scores which were either at or below 70's) were not any better. In my opinion those dogs/handlers just wasted the judges, other competitors, and spectators time. I attended an ASR Seminar in VA, and the comments I have on film from trainers and "civilians" while my PSD and I were working on the field just amazed me. "Does that dog really work the streets and have "real bites"? "I have never seen a PSD that would out like that or listen to the first command". Then one of the trainers began commenting about how they were asked to train a PSD (that was already working the streets) because it "did not have a recall". Believe me my PSD was not "the sh*t" that day by any means - I've seen a whole lot better out of him and many other PSD's working the streets. Sadly, I've seen a whole lot worse as well. Which leaves me wondering is it "rose color glasses" that some handlers have on? Actually thinking that they (dog and handler) are good when in actuality they are barely marginal. Kinda like some people actually think they can sing - when in reality they can't (See tryouts for American Idol). Or are enough people (spectators and competitors) not able to see a really good working/sport dog in action, just the slugs, so their expectations and opinions (standards) are lower? Where are the TD's, Kennel Masters, "friends" etc that should be telling it like it is and requiring/demanding more from the team? I'm one of those people that will tell you my opinion not what you wanta hear and respect those who will do the same for me. 

Do certain judges/trainers/evaluators really think that they are doing teams a "favor" by giving passing scores to handlers/dogs that obviously don't deserve them? I personally think they are doing a disservice to the them AND the other handlers/dogs out there that are training at and above the minimum requirements. 

Sorry, just had to rant.....


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> Whether your training for sport, PPD or PSD I think it is safe to say that we all have certain expectations we want to meet before we trial, utilize the dog for personal protection or feel confident enough (in the dog and ourselves) to work the streets. I personally have seen dogs and handlers working in different venues and was left wondering - what the heck are they thinking ?...bringing that dog to a trial, thinking that dog will actually protect them or working that dog on the streets.
> 
> There were at least 3 dogs at the SchH regionals that I attended, that I personally would have never entered. It was not like they had an "off day", as I had seen the dogs at several club level trials and they (or their scores which were either at or below 70's) were not any better. In my opinion those dogs/handlers just wasted the judges, other competitors, and spectators time. I attended an ASR Seminar in VA, and the comments I have on film from trainers and "civilians" while my PSD and I were working on the field just amazed me. "Does that dog really work the streets and have "real bites"? "I have never seen a PSD that would out like that or listen to the first command".


this is exactly what i was talking about in the other thread lacey. i commend you on striving for a higher level than a lot of people expected of you. i've heard the same thing at PSD trials (not about my dog). specifically, there was a dog (trained by Gregg Tawney) who did very well in his bitework routine. i heard another handler tell the handler of that dog, "i wanna see your dog after he's had about 10 street bites". basically implying that his control would go down the tubes. 





> Then one of the trainers began commenting about how they were asked to train a PSD (that was already working the streets) because it "did not have a recall". Believe me my PSD was not "the sh*t" that day by any means - I've seen a whole lot better out of him and many other PSD's working the streets. Sadly, I've seen a whole lot worse as well. Which leaves me wondering is it "rose color glasses" that some handlers have on? Actually thinking that they (dog and handler) are good when in actuality they are barely marginal. Kinda like some people actually think they can sing - when in reality they can't (See tryouts for American Idol). Or are enough people (spectators and competitors) not able to see a really good working/sport dog in action, just the slugs, so their expectations and opinions (standards) are lower? Where are the TD's, Kennel Masters, "friends" etc that should be telling it like it is and requiring/demanding more from the team? I'm one of those people that will tell you my opinion not what you wanta hear and respect those who will do the same for me.
> 
> Do certain judges/trainers/evaluators really think that they are doing teams a "favor" by giving passing scores to handlers/dogs that obviously don't deserve them? I personally think they are doing a disservice to the them AND the other handlers/dogs out there that are training at and above the minimum requirements.
> 
> Sorry, just had to rant.....


as far as what motivates those people, i would think the number one thing is just impatience. they probably put some work in the with the dog and while they weren't ready for that specific trial, they still want to "compete". be on that field. feeling the nervous rush that everyone talks about.


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## Sam Trinh (Jul 31, 2006)

i sympathize with your post lacey. one thing i think may or may not be going on with people who do are not ready is that they plan in advance expecting to get to such and such a level and for whatever reason they do not. But they have already paid, planned, etc. and go in expecting a miracle. Personally, i would rather not embarrass myself and won't even begin to trial for a I until i'm already ready to get a II, but that’s just me. Of course, my plan isn't fool proof because my dog could do something new and interesting on the trial field. But I’m going to avoid this as much as possible and, like you, don't understand why others don't do the same.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> I've heard the same thing at PSD trials (not about my dog). specifically, there was a dog (trained by Gregg Tawney) who did very well in his bitework routine. i heard another handler tell the handler of that dog, "i wanna see your dog after he's had about 10 street bites". basically implying that his control would go down the tubes.


I've heard that alot too Tim....knowing it's bullsh*t. Control is lost because the handler permits it and fails to train/demand nothing less from the dog - cut and dry. Nothin pisses me off more then to be a spectator at a sport trial and hear people say "that dog would make a good police dog" only because the dog won't out or is out of control. 

Good for you Sam....glad to hear you have higher expectations for XD. You'll probably get your 1 before Coda and me at the rate we are going


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> I've heard that alot too Tim....knowing it's bullsh*t. Control is lost because the handler permits it and fails to train/demand nothing less from the dog - cut and dry. Nothin pisses me off more then to be a spectator at a sport trial and hear people say "that dog would make a good police dog" only because the dog won't out or is out of control.


haha. where have i heard that before? needless to say, i agree with you 100%...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah the dog loses control after 10 street bites because many stop training their dog after the dogs 2nd bite .... "hey lookie he bites people now, I don't have to do anything else"


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Many times people make plans to go to an event, enter the dog, and shit goes haywire, sometimes it is just they made the plans and wanted to play no mattr what.

I went to trial last June, knowing there were things that might be real ugly. Also a lot of times you just want to go and have fun with your friends.

If you can't laugh about it.............. : )


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

This is why i am doin many mock trials before braxton actually trials. and as far as the street dogs thing goes i dont think you can just go oh this dogs has a schI and narcotics yeah it can work the streets. i am working a psd now that will only bite forearms (wich i hate dogs that are forearm biters) and was stick shy and he needs alot of speed put into him and alot of environmental pressure added. Your psd shouldn't come off the bite if i kick a trash can at him or throw a hose on him. I think the only work you should have to do is maitinance training or if an issue comes along fix it with a psd. not take one that has been working the streets for a year and go man we have all this work to do. but hey there are alot of dogs out there like this. and at least this handle understands this and isnt gungho on getting his dog a bite. it wasnt his decision to pick this dog but the department did and it was their first dog. and they now know. the dog is doin good now after 7 months of training. but still isnt all the way done. 
And by the way Lace Jarko is just a bad mamajama.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

steve gossmeyer said:


> This is why i am doin many mock trials before braxton actually trials. and as far as the street dogs thing goes i dont think you can just go oh this dogs has a schI and narcotics yeah it can work the streets. i am working a psd now that will only bite forearms (wich i hate dogs that are forearm biters) and was stick shy and he needs alot of speed put into him and alot of environmental pressure added. Your psd shouldn't come off the bite if i kick a trash can at him or throw a hose on him. I think the only work you should have to do is maitinance training or if an issue comes along fix it with a psd. not take one that has been working the streets for a year and go man we have all this work to do. but hey there are alot of dogs out there like this. and at least this handle understands this and isnt gungho on getting his dog a bite. it wasnt his decision to pick this dog but the department did and it was their first dog. and they now know. the dog is doin good now after 7 months of training. but still isnt all the way done.
> And by the way Lace Jarko is just a bad mamajama.


i agree with a lot of what you said. not all of it, but most. as far as a PSD only needing maintenance training, that would be nice, but it's not realistic. at least not where i work. four weeks is all we get for a basic handlers course. four weeks is not enough time for: obedience, bite work (different bite scenarios, handler protection, environmental pressure, targeting, etc), area searches, building searches, tracking/trailing, and article searches. the certification test we have to pass at the end of that four weeks is VERY basic. basically it's: obedience (on and off leash), area search, building search, apprehension on a fleeing suspect with a verbal out, handler protection with a verbal out, and a call-off (no contact recall or down). that's it. no article searches. no tracking/trailing. no weird bite scenarios. so yes, it would be nice if the dog did all of those things competently right out of basic handler school and the only thing required is maintenance, but it doesn't happen that way out here.

some of those bite work issues can be headed off in dog selection (environmental stability, nerves, etc), but some of it is just exposure. my dog was an IPO 1 and had probably never bitten a leg when i got him. we didn't spend a lot of time on leg bites in the basic handler school and he will still almost always prefer an upper body bite, but his first street bite was a leg bite. go figure....


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I can definitely understand a dog/handler have an "off day" and does something "that he/she has never done before or very rarely does" - no doubt we've all been there before but when a dog does not even have a clue what heel means....refuses to jump the hurdle and A frame in training, let alone almost every trial and has never understood what a bark and hold is (talking sport here) then IMHO don't enter the dog (SchH 3) in a regional championship.......There is nothin wrong with having fun and socializing on a training field or at a club trial - obviously those handlers must have had alotta fun socializing because it was very evident that effective/correct training was not being conducted - even to my rookie (sport) eyes. 

The performance was sooooo sad that even the other competitors that were in the bleachers did not laugh - they did look pretty disgusted though. I actually stopped filming the protection phase of one of the dogs....it was that repulsive.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<as far as a PSD only needing maintenance training, that would be nice, but it's not realistic. at least not where i work. four weeks is all we get for a basic handlers course.>>>

Tim, I completely agree, it would be great, but it's not realistic. We have a full 15 week course, staff trainers and handlers are still required 16 hours per month for maintenance training. One of my concerns with smaller departments has always been the follow up. They get fairly decent training, but often times they don't have the people with knowledge to lean on when they return to their own department. Our department has several smaller departments that rely on us for training and certification. It works for them, it's free training, doesn't bother us cause we are training anyway.

DFrost


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Jarko was Steve......WAS......I have not worked him in awhile now that he is retired. The last time we worked him (after ASR went cold) - the control was not there at all - lack of proficiency training. No doubt we could get it back but I've opted to let him enjoy his retirement  

Wow Tim 4 weeks???? We had a little over 4 months and that was definitely not long enough. We were required to do 16 hours of proficiency training each week (4- protection, 4- tracking/trailing and 4-narcs) which of course we were not paid for. I was lucky enough to have two crazy but awesome civilian decoys/trainers that had very good imaginations (for scenario's) also....to train with.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> i agree with a lot of what you said. not all of it, but most. as far as a PSD only needing maintenance training, that would be nice, but it's not realistic. at least not where i work. four weeks is all we get for a basic handlers course. four weeks is not enough time for: obedience, bite work (different bite scenarios, handler protection, environmental pressure, targeting, etc), area searches, building searches, tracking/trailing, and article searches. the certification test we have to pass at the end of that four weeks is VERY basic. basically it's: obedience (on and off leash), area search, building search, apprehension on a fleeing suspect with a verbal out, handler protection with a verbal out, and a call-off (no contact recall or down). that's it. no article searches. no tracking/trailing. no weird bite scenarios. so yes, it would be nice if the dog did all of those things competently right out of basic handler school and the only thing required is maintenance, but it doesn't happen that way out here.
> 
> some of those bite work issues can be headed off in dog selection (environmental stability, nerves, etc), but some of it is just exposure. my dog was an IPO 1 and had probably never bitten a leg when i got him. we didn't spend a lot of time on leg bites in the basic handler school and he will still almost always prefer an upper body bite, but his first street bite was a leg bite. go figure....


oh i understand the time thing but i think trainers should train the dog for this stuff instead of selling a trained psd dog who needs work still. but hey us trainers gotta make money some how. lol i just wouldnt trust a dog without proper training.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

Lacey Vessell said:


> Jarko was Steve......WAS......I have not worked him in awhile now that he is retired. The last time we worked him (after ASR went cold) - the control was not there at all - lack of proficiency training. No doubt we could get it back but I've opted to let him enjoy his retirement
> 
> Better than most i still wouldnt want to mess with him in a dark or light for that matter alley. lol


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Awwwwwwww...... I love Jarko. He still wont give me that damn Kong, but he will come sit in my lap with it  He is a VERY level headed dog, I would say that in itself makes him great


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Once again, Sch rears it's ugly head. I take new people to Sch trials so they can see that it is rather silly, and they hear the scores and the ALWAYS PRONOUNCED bitework AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Sorry.

I really would like to see video of the bad performances posted......NOT to make fun of, but as good instruction as to how or why things went wrong.

If I had video of last june with Buko, I would post it, not only for comedic value, but also to show people what I could of done differently as a handler to get control of the dog better. As I was feeling like absolute crap, I am sure there was a whole bunch of stuff to point out, a lot of it real basic and common errors.

Unfortunately, no one wanted to video my comedic efforts, and the learning opportunity is lost.

Showing the bad stuff is way more important than the good stuff. 

I would have loved to have video of Buko in September. There were some really beautiful handler errors occuring. Buko also had some pretty nice moments here and there.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I would show the video of the dog/handler that performed poorly *if it was me and my dog* but seeing how it is someone elses performance...I won't. Now if this breeder brags on their website about this dog going to the regionals....I might have a change of heart


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just smear there face out. Gotta be a program that does that......ask the geeks here. : )


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

I should probably wait to post on this one till after the Arizona trial on the 14th! 

But, I think what happens is that people get used to a routine on their field or at their training and the dog does pretty well considering the same decoys, scenarios, locations, etc. Then the handler goes to the trial field with new decoys that may be putting more pressure on the dog and on an unfamiliar field and the handler sees a different dog then the one at training. The dog that is usually clean in training suddenly becomes sticky on the outs and there is a loss of control. 

Their training does not engage the dog at the trial level and they are not prepared. Unfortunately, they don't figure this out until their dog is running amuck and biting everyone and everything, and they are too embarrassed or proud to cut the trial short and call it a day .....


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Gregg Tawney said:


> I should probably wait to post on this one till after the Arizona trial on the 14th!
> 
> But, I think what happens is that people get used to a routine on their field or at their training and the dog does pretty well considering the same decoys, scenarios, locations, etc. Then the handler goes to the trial field with new decoys that may be putting more pressure on the dog and on an unfamiliar field and the handler sees a different dog then the one at training. The dog that is usually clean in training suddenly becomes sticky on the outs and there is a loss of control.
> 
> Their training does not engage the dog at the trial level and they are not prepared. Unfortunately, they don't figure this out until their dog is running amuck and biting everyone and everything, and they are too embarrassed or proud to cut the trial short and call it a day .....


 
I can understand that. I would think that would be pretty commen, especially to new handlers. (Like myself...hopefully I can learn from others mistakes ) But the dog(s) that Lacey is talking about...that is not the problem. These dogs have alot of training issues, and they are not just at trial time.


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Oh......and for the record.... I think you should post them  You cant tell who they are in the video anyway.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Amanda Layne said:


> Oh......and for the record.... I think you should post them  You cant tell who they are in the video anyway.


Agree 100%. Eff 'em if reality causes them grief. We need more reality in this world. Constructively criticizing performance is different from personal attacks.[/Jeff]


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I did post Bubba and Jim's protection routine under Greg Doud's - only because Jim linked my You Tube Video to his web page Converting your favorite person as I type Amanda


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

You mean THIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtp8QA6ef4U video?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Okay I uploaded one of the obedience videos (because Woody asked for it) but let me give an intro to this handler/dog team:

This is one of the best performances I have ever seen this dog and handler perform in trial or training. This handler teaches obedience classes for money and has been in SchH for at least 15 years. I will say this concerning a critique of this routine: If the handlers van was anywhere in sight - the dog would have driven home without her. This is Home Field advantage. This same handler told me that without her assistance and expertise my dogs and Amanda's would never title.......you be the judge. Curious as to what scores you all come up with as compared to what the judge awarded - remember this is a Regional Championship so judge accordingly.

Warning: You might want to turn your volume down as the wind is howling on the film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-unm28qsJ6w


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Here is the sad thing... This dog (when he was young) had so much potential that I thought he was destined for greatness. However, this is what inevitably happens to all of this handlers' dogs. A lack of motivation, a lack of consistancy, and a lack of common sense leads to performances like this. This dog's protection work could have been exeptional, but poor decoy/helper work and a disregard for graduating from one level to the next properly, makes his protection work look more heartbreaking than his obedience. Which is probably why Lacey did not record the protection. The only thing that this handler's dog excels at is tracking. This handler belongs to the hosting club, which I was a member of years ago. Part of the reason that I left the club was due to handlers/trainers like this one, trashing other members training methods and dogs. It all comes back to roost. ~Justin (STK9)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I can't give a numeric score as I'm still waiting for a new book & I am certainly no judge. IMHO: This team failed sit out of motion/down out of motion/retrieve over jump/retrieve over wall. His heeling was poor, group was poor. His send out & the retrieve on the flat was passable maybe at club level. I couldn't tell though if he was chewy on the dumbbell. I didn't see his down with distraction, but even with full points on that they should not have received a passing score. I don't know this team and am not trying to be disrespectful. I know that if I were the handler I would not have been very happy that day.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I don't think anyone wants to be disrespectful at all, and you definitely were not Susan. I apologize if my post appeared disrespectful, but I felt that one would have to know the history behind this dog...he is actually my favorite of all her dogs. I too think he had alot of potential and with the right training can _still_ be salvaged.

As for the long down....he broke it. The score the judge gave was 42.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lacey I didn't think you sounded disrespectful, I was worried I did - after all I was the one ragging on the performance! I can see what you mean about the dog. Although he appeared flat it seemed more because he was unsure of what she wanted from him - bad training/nice dog. That's why I didn't think it was one of those cases of "my dog never did that before". This video speaks directly to your original post of people trialing dogs when they shouldn't. What did she think would happen? I know people will trial sometimes when they are not prepared, but want to support their club (low entires), but that wouldn't be the case in the Regionals. I am mystified as to why she entered.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I know nobody here wants to get into a ragging session regarding this particular trainer, but I'm just curious if anybody knows which method(s) she uses for obedience training?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Probably should clarify my abrupt statement now that the rage I felt at American Idol is out of my system.

What I mean to say--no issue here on any of these posts that have followed mine--is that critique of routines should be encouraged as a learning method.

I will throw out that critique of routines by people not members of this forum should be specific and objective relative to the specific clip (in my opinion). Stuff that may be inferred to be a general remark about a handler, their training programs, their breeding programs, their club...maybe be careful with that. This is a visible forum (Google it and your user name if you doubt this) and being stalked isn't a lot of fun, trust me on this one. Keep in mind that your name, your IP address, some of your personal history, etc. are all visible here. And dog people are freaky people (did I just say that outloud?).

Plus, it's good karma to be prudent.

Forum admin may feel different, this is just my perspective.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Woody, I think all the critiques were very honest and to the point. If someone is uncomfortable with that then I'm sorry for them.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Woody, I think all the critiques were very honest and to the point. If someone is uncomfortable with that then I'm sorry for them.


Again, no issues at all with what's been posted so far, other than my own post.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> What I mean to say--no issue here on any of these posts that have followed mine--is that critique of routines should be encouraged as a learning method.
> 
> I will throw out that critique of routines by people not members of this forum should be specific and objective relative to the specific clip (in my opinion).


Agreed. Which is why I want to know more about the specific training method utilized to produce the performance shown on the tape. Was it strictly compulsion or the opposite or a combination or...?

I don't do sport protection right now (and USAR obedience doesn't require the type of precision most sports do - although control is key), but I want to do it someday and am trying to learn learn learn. As an aside, if it was a video of me, I'd want input!

IMO, posting videos for constructive critique is very helpful.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

It was strictly compulsive - a ball was used for the send out. Food reward, from the mouth, every now and again to teach focus.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What I would like to hear, are more what you would like to see the handler do during the routines to possibly get the dog through.

I watched a small portion, and thought that if she was more animated, that the dog would appear better.

Your turn.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Animation is fine on a training field...but it is gigged on a trial field as handler help.

IMHO I'd bring the dog all the way back to learning basic positions as well as commands. Everything would be upbeat....alotta praise....alot of play with a ball on a rope (which he really likes because I've played with him with one) one on one with the handler. In other words I would start him just like I would a pup using Ivan B. method of "Obedience without conflict". There is nothing wrong with compulsion when used correctly and fairly and I am not by any means against compulsion - once the dog knows the commands. IMHO this dog sees obedience - as I saw drill when I was a recruit. He hates it because it has never been rewarding/fun for him - just frustrations and corrections. 

As for the jump/A-frame. He knows the exercises - he needs to be put back on a long line and not be permitted to just go around...not even once. I'd lower the jump/angle of the A-frame and jump/climb across/over it with him back and forth a couple of times just having fun and praising him and then rewarding him. Gradually increasing the height and not push him for to many repetitions. Always ending on a good note with alotta of one on one ball playing. This might possibly work with the dog because I was permitted to "try" it with him but for only one day.....he sure was happy though and he willingly/enthusiastically jumped and retrieved whatever I threw over the jump.

This dog is a really nice dog....I know with a little patience and consistency...he could prove just how good he really is.

On a side note....nothing I have said here has not been said to the handler face to face. She knows I really like this dog and knows deep down that I only ever wanted what was best for him and her.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

I entered a regional event in the last couple months that my dog was not ready for. I knew his tracking was not ready, and conditions on that day were TOUGH. But I thought it was a great opportunity to get the young dog to compete in a stadium atmosphere.

Sure enough, he turned in a 37 in tracking after quitting in the wind/dust storm. He was only a SchH1- so I did not feel like I wasted a track layers time. And since I was the absolute LAST draw- if field space had been an issue I would have been the one to switch fields for tracking.

However- I do not feel a 95 pt obedience routine and a 97 pt protection anything to be sad about, even with the 37 in tracking. 

I did notice some dogs who had to use their practice time to train their dogs how to do things- and was surprised. For me, even with a 3 year old SchH1 dog- practice time was about setting the center line, going over the wall and jump, and doing a send out. NOT about teaching my dog to go over strange jumps and scaling walls, teaching him to do a sit out of motion- well, you get the idea. I was surprised.

Off to YouTube to download the video. I'm on dial up, so be back tomorrow or the next day! lol


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How many points lost there, VS how many points lost from wide turns ect. This is the thing that I always try to weigh out. Training is training, and trial handling is this vs that based on your knowledge of the rules and the dog.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

As I can't find a specific deduction in the rulebook for handler help...although each obedience exercise lists this fault I would say it depends on the judge, what level the dog is attempting to attain and the level of competition - but I get your point. I would definitely give an extra command if needed in the dumbell routine...rather then take a 5 point deduction (of the total 15 points for each exercise) for only having an outward or return jump. The dumbell routine (entire) is worth 45 points....


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> It was strictly compulsive - a ball was used for the send out. Food reward, from the mouth, every now and again to teach focus.


That's kinda what I figured.

You can see the difference in the methods based on the results of the send-out. The dog was very motivated to go out.

Thanks.


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