# Raised platform and interfacing with decoy question



## FRANK PORT (Jul 29, 2011)

Hi
My year and a half GSD will not go for a bite when he is on a raised platform or plank. He is not skitish about heights. Since he was a very young pup, he has been playing on platforms, climbing over obstacles to walk/run on the same planks and platforms. 
When the decoy aggitates, the dog doesn't hesitate to get on the raised platform, but then shuts down, even if the decoy initiates a fight. Over the weekend we tried this exercise with other dogs, and I was suprised how many did exactly like mine (even a Sch 111 wouldn't bite). Dogs with crazy high drive like my mali had no problem.
I would appreciate any help in how I can overcome this situation.

Thanks
Frank


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

FRANK PORT said:


> Hi
> My year and a half GSD will not go for a bite when he is on a raised platform or plank. He is not skitish about heights. Since he was a very young pup, he has been playing on platforms, climbing over obstacles to walk/run on the same planks and platforms.
> When the decoy aggitates, the dog doesn't hesitate to get on the raised platform, but then shuts down, even if the decoy initiates a fight. Over the weekend we tried this exercise with other dogs, and I was suprised how many did exactly like mine (even a Sch 111 wouldn't bite). Dogs with crazy high drive like my mali had no problem.
> I would appreciate any help in how I can overcome this situation.
> ...


do you have video?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Frank,

What specific results are you trying to achieve by putting the dog on a table? I think that table work can be very effective with the right trainer and the right dog BUT if your dog isn't comfortable there then there isn't any reason to force the issue IMO


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Frank,
> 
> What specific results are you trying to achieve by putting the dog on a table? I think that table work can be very effective with the right trainer and the right dog BUT if your dog isn't comfortable there then there isn't any reason to force the issue IMO


You missed the point


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

That's your opinion Dave. I don't think every dog needs to be worked on a platform especially if a "table expert" isn't doing the training. There is more bad table work then good table work.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

FRANK PORT said:


> Hi
> My year and a half GSD will not go for a bite when he is on a raised platform or plank. He is not skitish about heights. Since he was a very young pup, he has been playing on platforms, climbing over obstacles to walk/run on the same planks and platforms.
> When the decoy aggitates, the dog doesn't hesitate to get on the raised platform, but then shuts down, even if the decoy initiates a fight. Over the weekend we tried this exercise with other dogs, and I was suprised how many did exactly like mine (even a Sch 111 wouldn't bite). Dogs with crazy high drive like my mali had no problem.
> I would appreciate any help in how I can overcome this situation.
> ...


affix the dog to a platform or table and ignore him for a while and work some other dogs, try again later... there are too many variable to even get into here or assume


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's your opinion Dave. I don't think every dog needs to be worked on a platform especially if a "table expert" isn't doing the training. There is more bad table work then good table work.


 
You are substituting table for platform. Picture a bad guy in a warehouse raised up in the air five feet on a platform. The dog won't engage up high, not OP want's to do table training....

I 

You missed the point. hence, my saying you missed the point. If I missed the point, maybe the OP will point it out, because he said platform or plank. IE biting on unstable footing not working on a table.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> You are substituting table for platform. Picture a bad guy in a warehouse raised up in the air five feet on a platform. The dog won't engage up high, not OP want's to do table training....
> 
> I
> 
> You missed the point. hence, my saying you missed the point. If I missed the point, maybe the OP will point it out, because he said platform or plank. IE biting on unstable footing not working on a table.


I had the same thought Thomas did until I went back and re-read.



_
"If I missed the point, maybe the OP will point it out, because he said platform or plank."_

I'm sure Frank will clarify.


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## FRANK PORT (Jul 29, 2011)

Three training excercises we tried recently and Roc failed at each. 
1. We were training inside a warehouse a few weeks ago and I tried to simulate a burglary.
I had my dog find the bad guy who was hiding on shelving 4-5ft off the ground. We found the perpetrator and I gave Roc the command to go, which he did and jumped onto the shelving, but froze once he was up there. The shelving platform was 4' wide and very solid ( real deal shelving like in homedepot), so I was shocked he wouldn't engage. This same dog has no problem playing around jumping from scaffold to scaffold.
2. The second scenario was just to see if he would engage a decoy after he goes across a 12' x12" plank that is 5' high. He has walked, sat, layed down and ran over this same plank since he was a pup. I gave the command, he *ran* right across the plank, but wanted nothing to do with the decoy. At one point he tried to run under the decoy to get to the stairs to get down.
3. The last scenario we had a pickup truck that had a bad guy hiding, laying down in the bed. I gave the command and Roc jumped up into the bed and bit, but with no confidence. He only used the front teeth and you could see him looking all around. I even jumped in to work as a team, but it didn't get better. 
It should be noted the same schutzhund 111 dog failed also at all three exercises. 

The head trainer stated we will gradually get him to engage by starting a few inches off the ground and when Roc is comfortable, then raise the height a little each time. 

My thoughts are since Roc has medium drive, he is thinking to much about the height. Seems all the dogs that had over the top drive succeeded at these exercises (Can't explain why the SCH 111 dog failed- On the ground that dog is hard and has no problem going for real). 

My dogs and I train for fun, along with my 12 yr old son. We are always trying to learn and improve, so logically this would be a perfect goal that is measurable and hopefully achievable. 

If the dog doesn't show improvement over the next few weekends, I won't push it. It's all about fun and playing with the boy and dogs.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Frank.

I'd still want to see video if you could get some next weekend. 

I would ignore biting on a raised platform. 

Have the dog on flat ground, a low platform in front, then the decoy. get the dog where he'll accept the stress of going over the platform and biting on the other side. Should work like stress up, crosses the plywood, stress goes downbite.

Have your decoy work the dog closer to the platform, and then away while he's biting. Try and move (decoy) away when the dog bites hard. Turn this into a send across a sheet of 4x8 of plywood. Send accross have your helper work him back the other way. Slowly desensitize until he can send and bite onto the plywood then walk back across while biting. Send through doorways as well. see if there is an issue there.

that is overly simple, but it gives you a plan to see if he'll run accross something and then bite. I would keep this in the same area for a while and see if he improves. then move him to a new area and reduce the height.

Good luck. Hopefully that isn't too jumbled


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I would take a bite wedge toy climb on the shelves and play tug with him. He may deal with that better than biting a decoy. You just go and train his grip on the wedge while on the scaffolding. then get the sleeve and train his grips on the scaffolding. then let your decoy come and train his grips with the wedge on the scaffold...........so on...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't disagree with Daniel, but I don't know if you play with your dog. I don't want to make that assumption.

Think of your raised surface like training a dog to do a PSA car jack. You get the dog in the car repeatedly on trips, desensitize, etc. If the dog has a bad expeerience, they may not want to bite out of the car. Open both front drivers door and passenger door. Let your dog see the decoy go through. hopefully he'll engage and follow. let decoy get out the other and let dog in. best case, get a couple barks in the seat and let the dog chase a running decoy away from the car. you can do this a time or two to increase frustration before a bite. Then give him a bite outside the car. Next, close the door. Send the dog into the car and hold him at the door. get him to bark and let him go and bite the decoy outside. First bite inside the car, bite and slip. escalate until the dog bites like you think you need him to. 

This method gets the dog to want to pull into/onto something vs. fighting through out of fear.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Dave is far smarter than I am on this stuff, but I'll throw my 2 cents in. Is it possible too many of the variables changed at once maybe confusing the issue? Wondering what your results would be if you ran the same scenario minus the platform. 

Maybe it was confusion rather than shutting down from fear.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I second what Dave and your training director suggested. Successive approximation. Maybe you don't have to go all the way back to training him to bite while on a piece of plywood lying flat on the ground, but you need to figure out where his threshold is. Start there and if there is no change in his confidence (posture grip, etc.) then try making the plank or plywood slightly less stable and then gradually raising it up. The goal is to figure out when he first shows he's uncomfortable and then starting there or even backing up a bit and then making sure he's biting with the same confidence as when he is on the ground before making things more difficult. It definitely sounds like height is an issue, but maybe biting with a different surface under his feet is an issue as well. Has he done many bites inside or with weird things under his feet (tarps, etc.)?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I am not a pp or psa guy but we do similar stuff from time to time for confidence and to mix things up. How about developing the scenario in stages? Maybe have the exercise started in prey? The dog is in a bit of pursuit and follows the fast moving/ running decoy onto the platform.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

videos of all of this stuff would be very informative.

I got about 30 questions in my head...lol...varying greatly..

starting with this one:

is this the same pup that would not try to bite a rag or tug when restrained at 4 months old?


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## FRANK PORT (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks for all of the input, I will try to get some videos this weekend.

Yes, same pup.
At around six months old, his drive began improving, and to this day he is getting better. He still is a happy go lucky goof ball, and his drive definitely increases if the decoy is moving or aggitating at a high energy level. His medium drive was my major concern if he would be able to overcome this issue. I'll let you know if he progresses.


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## Joe Agustin (Jan 15, 2013)

obviously his fight drive isnt strong enough to over come his discomfort. If he will jump and play and work those areas without a decoy, just for fun, he doesnt have environmental issues. Witht he bare information we were given i would assume your dog has confidence issues. You say when he does engage, its weak? I would 1) play tug up in the truck bed first. LEt him win. During the tug exercise shake the truck and see if his demeanor changes. A decoy should, when the dog engages, fall to the bed and let the dog take a dominate stance. Have the decoy act out in pain as a positive response to positive stong body posture from the dog as well as firmer bites or fuller bites. Thats how i would handle it. Go from there and try the same routine for other areas. Also, work his confidence in all areas. Your dog needs to be built up, his weakness is still there on the grass and the floor, its just not coming to the surface. Build up his confidence everywhere, couple that with the exercise i described and you may have yourself a wiener. haha, get it...winner, wiener. Oh well.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Joe Agustin said:


> obviously his fight drive isnt strong enough to over come his discomfort. If he will jump and play and work those areas without a decoy, just for fun, he doesnt have environmental issues. Witht he bare information we were given i would assume your dog has confidence issues. You say when he does engage, its weak? I would 1) play tug up in the truck bed first. LEt him win. During the tug exercise shake the truck and see if his demeanor changes. A decoy should, when the dog engages, fall to the bed and let the dog take a dominate stance. Have the decoy act out in pain as a positive response to positive stong body posture from the dog as well as firmer bites or fuller bites. Thats how i would handle it. Go from there and try the same routine for other areas. Also, work his confidence in all areas. Your dog needs to be built up, his weakness is still there on the grass and the floor, its just not coming to the surface. Build up his confidence everywhere, couple that with the exercise i described and you may have yourself a wiener. haha, get it...winner, wiener. Oh well.


it would be interesting to see the dog and the "perpetrator" interaction for sure...


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