# Prong Collars and Drives



## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

Hey all.

My inquiry is on the use of prong collars. I ran a search, but could not find anything that answered it specifically. At my club, it is emphasized that prong collars are to enhance drive, not kill it. I started using it on my dog last month to start teaching the Bark and Hold, but yesterday, was the first time that I used it outside of the training realm. I pulled a muscle on my lower back somehow and did not want to take a chance of being pulled and slipping on ice during the daily walk. After the walk, I took him with me to Ace's Hardware, where he behaved superbly (in part because of the prong collar). 

After reading the "To Correct Or Not" thread, I became even more suspicious on whether I am raising my pup correctly or not. I have done some reading and also seen some videos on raising working puppies and have tried to abide by them as much as possible. However, as a first time working dog owner, I think I am my own worst critic and probably overanalyze everything in relation to my dog.

*So is it okay to use a prong to bring the dog under control? Is such use killing drive? Will the dog assume that putting on a prong means that it is time to be calm?*

A bit of info on my dog and what I want to do with him: He's a 16 months old, working line GSD. Has been raised with a bit more restrictions than most people raise their working pups (not allowed on furniture, no rough-housing with the kids, no jumping on mama, no chewing on the kitty :lol: , etc). I am training him in the Schutzhund discipline, but my ultimate goal is for him to be a family protection dog since I travel a lot. So far, he is advancing well in bite work and shows good civil aggression in the training field.

Thanks.


----------



## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

It's all in how you use the prong collar.

Repetetive, light, nagging pops will stimulate drive in most dogs. 

For control, one, good solid pop will serve as a correction. 

Light, nagging pops don't work for correction, and hard pops don't work for drive stimulation.

We use the prong collar for stimulation and correction, as needed, in both obedience and protection.

Our dogs are so used to wearing the prong collar for all sorts of things that they don't make any association with it in terms of be drivey or be calm. The collar means nothing to them. 

Well timed, appropriate corrections aren't going to kill drive in a dog. They will to an extent be necessary for obtaining reliable control. For most strong working dogs, a prong collar is necessary to give an effective leash correction. Flat and chain collars just aren't effective with a hard dog... they won't even notice.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Like all K-9 tools it isn't the tool that works, it's the user. More damage has been done with a prong than with good words spoken. Also, when PROPERLY used the prong can bring out drives. It is like the e-collar. If you have a good decoy, the decoy can bring about change, not the collar. Use caution with this tool and avoid its use on young puppies.


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

I use a prong exclusively. I build a dog up in all phases til I have myself a lunatic. At about a year or so, I start to use a prong to teach foundations of positions I like to be in, while we lay the ground work for formal obedience. 

I will have already taught most of these positions with food or toys earlier just not enforced.

I use the same technique with a prong that most folks do with a Ecollar. I lightly stim, and reward the desired behavior. So eye contact gets a verb reward, sustained eye contact gets enormous play from me. I never crank the dog with the prong, unless my pack position is tested.

I have a young dog now that is just about ready for this. I hope to tape our first few sessions. When I do, I will have my editor post it for ya.

Be at peace,
Bryan


----------



## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

With punishers in general, there is often a threshold and under that threshold, the device strengthens the behavior, and over it, the device tends to weaken behavior (think resistance in weight training, and then, "the straw that broke the camel's back"). 

However, the art of training, in its highest form, is to depend on no external controls. All control is ultimately in the mind of the animal. 
To get there, your pup will benefit from knowing the names of things - whether states of beings, such as "alert" and "aroused" and "easy", of the names of people, places, things, actions, body parts etc. You will then be able to tell him what will happen and what you want from him, when he is still calm, and it will help him develop the capacity to work in high drive, while splitting his focus and remaining aware of you at all times.


Best of luck
Kayce


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, eros, FWIW. i think that 1) desensitize the dog to the prong, ie, have him wear it when nothing *exciting* is going on, just around the house, etc. 2) on my boy, at the age your's is now, when i took him out in public i had 2 lines on him: one to the prong, and one to a regular choke chain collar. i'm pretty good at line-handling, so would use the line to the prong to correct charging or bad behavior. the line to the choke collar was *twitched* to get attention or signal a directional change. don't know how well that would work for you.

at one point in time, he thought that every time the prong was put on, he was going to club and have a bunch of fun; as a result, he got WAY drivey and a bit hard to control. then i started putting it on him every day, and he quit making the association (relief!! and it didn't take more than a week). 

i think a lot of it is individual to the dog: some dogs a hard correction with a prong will increase drive (that's when you hear about dogs coming up the leash after a correction); with my particular dog, a medium prong correction (at most) simply refocuses him on me. i've never used a prong to increase his drive--don't think i'll need to, but it certainly helps focus him to "Mama"  

another thing to remember is that i only use his prong when i'm doing OB, or just *general public* work. i'm no expert, but hope i can add something to the discussion. 

oh-BTW, at the club i used to go to, prongs were NEVER used in the protection work--a whip was used to build drive.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kayce Cover said:


> With punishers in general, there is often a threshold and under that threshold, the device strengthens the behavior, and over it, the device tends to weaken behavior (think resistance in weight training, and then, "the straw that broke the camel's back").
> 
> However, the art of training, in its highest form, is to depend on no external controls. All control is ultimately in the mind of the animal.
> To get there, your pup will benefit from knowing the names of things - whether states of beings, such as "alert" and "aroused" and "easy", of the names of people, places, things, actions, body parts etc. You will then be able to tell him what will happen and what you want from him, when he is still calm, and it will help him develop the capacity to work in high drive, while splitting his focus and remaining aware of you at all times
> ...


Ditto! I'm becomming more and more of a believer in purely motivational training and, based on discussions with Kayce, I think she's at a much higher level then I am. I'm ready to take the flight! ;-)


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

if only i can get part-way there, i'd be happy. and i think i'm at about 15-20%....


----------



## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto! I'm becomming more and more of a believer in purely motivational training and, based on discussions with Kayce, I think she's at a much higher level then I am. I'm ready to take the flight! ;-)


Thanks for the high compliment, Bob ;-) . Flight is a great metaphor! And of course, ou are much higher than I in your applications knowledge and skills.

A great thing about this community is that you, an expert in some high level applications with dogs, and I, a specialist in interspecies communication and motivation, can talk and collaborate together.

I love working with other trainers, and getting to watch their expertise, and also, getting to watch the synergism when we collaborate.


Regards,
Kayce


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> It's all in how you use the prong collar.
> 
> Repetetive, light, nagging pops will stimulate drive in most dogs.
> 
> ...


Well said. It is all in how you use the collar, as well as how you handle the dog after a strong correction. It's a great tool, as Howard said, but handlers must be well schooled in their use, or suffer the consequences when too heavy handed.


----------

