# Dog eaters



## Meg O'Donovan

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/02/world/asia/thailand-dogs/index.html?hpt=wo_t5

Terrible the pix of the dogs jammed up like that. Even pigs going to market aren't usually crated up that tight.


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## Bob Scott

The way they are "handled" is disgusting and inhumane "to me" but I don't judge people of other cultures simply because they don't eat the same way I do. Even dogs. I've probably eaten critters that most here in the States wouldn't touch.
In India the cow is sacred. That will never stop me from eating a nice steak though. 
Not a personal l trash on the op. JMHO!


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## Meg O'Donovan

My brother raises beef cattle, my mother raises sheep. I eat both, plus wild game. I've lived in places where all kinds of things were eaten, including dog. What bothered me about the Mekong border story was how badly the animals were treated in transit and while they were waiting their end.


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## Bob Scott

I agree 100% with that but I doubt, for the most part, they see anything wrong with it. They are nothing more then a commodity to them.


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## Kim Cardinal

Meg O'Donovan said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/02/world/asia/thailand-dogs/index.html?hpt=wo_t5
> 
> Terrible the pix of the dogs jammed up like that. Even pigs going to market aren't usually crated up that tight.


I saw this on cnn.com (thankfully, via some dog loving friend links on FB). Disturbing and disgusting. To some cultures, dogs are liken to livestock (aka: a food source). But, I saw photos of a link recently (from a meat market in Seoul, South Korea), where family pets were brought to market. There's a big market for stolen dogs in certain countries (but they aren't used for fighting...they are served on a dinner plate).

Anyways, I shall end my comments here.


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## lynn oliver

Cruelty is never justifiable.


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## Katie Finlay

You can't possibly believe we treat our food animals any better in this country...

Different cultures, different values.


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## Lindsay Janes

That's pretty sick. A good friend of mine who works in farm said that corns are really bad for cows. It is slowly killing them and its not digestible.


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## lynn oliver

Culture is an excuse and cruelty is cruelty. Two wrongs never make a right.


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## Thomas Barriano

lynn oliver said:


> Two wrongs never make a right.


But three lefts do


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## catherine hardigan

Meh.

I have no problem with people eating dogs or horses or whatever else. It is too bad to see them piled on top of each other like that, but we treat our livestock pretty inhumanely in this country too. People in glass houses should not throw stones.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Many rural people kill their own meat. That's how it is in my part of the woods. The animals are respected beforehand and we show our gratitude for the food by treating the animals well before we eat them. The traditional native way here is to silently give a prayer of thanks to the game animal before you make the clean shot.

I guess the glass house comments refer to people who buy their meat in supermarkets. Even many people who raise beef and sheep around here don't send them off to giant slaughterhouses. There are local ways of doing it and way less waste (in terms of using all parts of the carcass, and fuel to transport to slaughterhouses). There seems to be a growing market, at least here, for meat that has been reared and slaughtered with better conditions for the animals. I don't live in the US but I would think that a news story showing these shipping conditions (even with cattle, sheep or hogs) would blow up pretty fast and get a lot of attention there. 

I should have titled the thread "Dog Smuggling" rather than "Dog Eaters" because my focus isn't on the eating, as much as the harshness the dogs have to experience before they are eaten. In a part of the world where most people are Buddhists (Thailand, Laos), it was surprising to see the conditions for dogs in the footage.


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## lynn oliver

Thomas,I wish I knew how to do a smiley face.


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## Thomas Barriano

lynn oliver said:


> Thomas,I wish I knew how to do a smiley face.


: - ) together and the WDF software replaces it with a


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## Katie Finlay

lynn oliver said:


> Culture is an excuse...


This is why we can't have nice things.


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## Bob Scott

Culture is something you learn through family. ALL cultures can learn something from all others. Hopefully the "dogs in a box" folks will improve things over time but I seriously doubt most of them look at it as cruelty or they wouldn't be so public about it. It's simply what they do. Good or bad is determined by culture. I hate what I see but I wont pass judgement on it simply because I have grown up with different cultural values about what's right FOR ME.
If you want to complain about confining an animal like that here in this country then look at the folks who raise veal. Calves that aren't allowed to do much but stand in a very small pen. We don't want them to develope any muscle and ruin a good piece of meat do we.


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## lynn oliver

I do actively campaign for farm animals in the UK, I am actually a spokesman for Compassion in World Farming. Cruelty in just non negoitable in my mind.


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## Gillian Schuler

lynn oliver said:


> Cruelty is never justifiable.


Have you read "Dakota" by Martha Grimes? It's fiction but "fiction" is gleaned from reality mostly.


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## lynn oliver

No,I haven't read it.


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## Gillian Schuler

In the UK, there was some / much eating of dogs during the WWII.

Near to the village where i live, there was / maybe is, a man who kept dogs, I think correctly although I have no concrete evidence. When they got too old to have a normal life, he slaughtered them and used their fat for a sort of liniment. "Hundeschmalz" I think it was called. I guess he used the rest of the animal meat to eat.

He was careering ("under the influence") round our property one night and saw "Ben" our Landseer in the garden "nice dog" he drooled!

I don't think I could have eaten any of my dogs. On the other hand I enjoy eating horsemeat, absolutely love game, i.e. venison, wild boar, etc. as this meat is very healthy - the animals are always on lthe go and not cooped up in pens, stuffed with medication and without exercise. I'm not a great meat eater but enjoy a small piece of meat every so often.

I actually like Lamb filets but would never eat "Easter Lambs" (very young Lambs). Does it really matter though, how old they are?

If animals are kept in healthy,clean conditions, I have no qualms about eating them but all too often I read about condiitions they are kept in and have my qualms although I still feel I am a hypocrite.

Where I teach English here, there is a person whose name is "Metzger" = "Butcher".

When discussing surnames, he told us his daughter had trouble with her surname - she was vegetarian:-({|=


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## Gillian Schuler

lynn oliver said:


> No,I haven't read it.


It's gruesome as to the maintenance of the pigs but after all it is fiction (or based on real circumstances)?


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## lynn oliver

It is not the eating of ethically raised meat or wild,it is the cruelty of some people,either with ' culture ' as an excuse or for 'cost' don't care who,what or where to defend it , is to say that because it's always been done that way , somehow makes the suffering of those animals less. Do people believe that animals in farm factories or dogs stuffed into crates have different nervous systems and therefore don't feel pain,seriously?


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## Bob Scott

lynn oliver said:


> It is not the eating of ethically raised meat or wild,it is the cruelty of some people,either with ' culture ' as an excuse or for 'cost' don't care who,what or where to defend it , is to say that because it's always been done that way , somehow makes the suffering of those animals less. Do people believe that animals in farm factories or dogs stuffed into crates have different nervous systems and therefore don't feel pain,seriously?



Actually I believe some do! Maybe not necessarily the "feel pain" thing but they don't believe what they do is wrong. 
Of course there will always be those that get a kick out of animal suffering but I just don't believe all that show a different way of doing things are doing it to be cruel. Again, it can be as much about culture.
I think the world would be a dull place without different cultures. That means the good and the bad. 
FOR ME, telling someone else they are wrong just because I don't believe in something the do is arrogance. 
No different then dog training! :wink:


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## Katie Finlay

lynn oliver said:


> It is not the eating of ethically raised meat or wild,it is the cruelty of some people,either with ' culture ' as an excuse or for 'cost' don't care who,what or where to defend it , is to say that because it's always been done that way , somehow makes the suffering of those animals less. Do people believe that animals in farm factories or dogs stuffed into crates have different nervous systems and therefore don't feel pain,seriously?


http://youtu.be/DWynJkN5HbQ


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## lynn oliver

So it's arrogant to believe that cruelty is cruelty? I cannot understand how anyone can not see the difference between stuffing living,feeling creatures into a crate and skinning them alive and dog training! So in order to be tolerant of other cultures,you have to sell your soul? Where would you ever draw the line? So should nothing be said, would it be arrogant to suggest other ways? Let's just turn away and pretend it's okay,don't want to upset anyones ' culture ' I couldn't sleep at night if I gave in to a bit of name calling and just did nothing. I find it incomprehensible that anyone who has empathy with animals,to the point of sharing their life with them,has to be told it is unspeakably cruel to pack one dog in after another,pushing down with your hands,listening to the cries,watching their eyes,imploring you to stop but you just carrying on. Please tell me that in a civilised world that is unacceptable? How many is it okay to stuff in? How badly brutalised can they be to make the meat more tender? Is there nothing you would draw the line at in the name of 'culture?' Can't remember the exact text but something about allowing bad things to happen if good people say nothing. 
All the time we are learning how much more animals feel,communicate,understand. Don't you look your dog in the eyes and immediately know their mood? I am truly shocked that empathy and respect for all living things is still up for debate.


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## Bob Scott

There are people that honestly believe that owning a dog is cruel and inhumane. Does that make them right? Do you own a dog? Have you ever corrected it or trained it? Do you allow it the freedom to do what comes naturally to them? Does it pee in the house? Hump you leg? Does it excite you to see it run free...with you running behind it yelling "GET BACK HERE YOU LITTLE BASSID"?!
If you train your dog in a humane way will that then make you 'OK" with these folks that don't believe you should own one? 
Would I be considered cruel if I took a baseball bat to the head of a child molester...and enjoyed doing it? Would this same thing apply if I took a bat to the head of dog beater..and enjoyed it? :twisted: 
It's all relative. :wink:


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## lynn oliver

Katie, are you saying that because someone is Asian that we have to allow cruelty? Is that because poor things know no better? How patronising would that be? I don't care what creed,culture,nationality,race,religion or preference to breakfast cereal they have,if they think that torturing anything is okay,then I cannot see where anyone would have a problem in saying it isn't. Doesn't mean they will stop, but let's all be 'tolerant ' to people who abuse animals in order to appear culturally aware. So is it racist to point out cruelty? If I point out cruelty in England,is that acceptable? Are you therefore implying that other races are too stupid,clever,caring,uncaring, to 'get'it? Never thought I would be told it is intolerant to try to make things better for a dog on a dog forum. Does no one else see the irony of that?


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## lynn oliver

Bob, do you seriously see no difference in dog training and skinning a dog alive so it tastes better?


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## Katie Finlay

Lynn, you said culture is an excuse. That's the most arrogant thing I've ever heard in my life.


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## Bob Scott

Of course I do because that's how I was raised. My parents ethics were handed down to me through association and teaching. If I were to be raised in some village that bowed down and gave honor to an elephant turd does that then make me wrong? It's cultural! Weather we like it or agree with it or not. 
There are many, many people that think hitting a dog with a stick in Schutzhund is cruel. Is it? Why or why not? Is using an electric collar cruel, or is it how it's used..or who's using it?
Defining cruelty is like defining different methods of training. What's cruel to one is a good training method to another. 
I believe most everyone in more advanced countries look at those dogs packed in a crate as cruel. It certainly would be for me but I've been raised differently. 
I cannot look at "being cruel" as some all encompassing statement based on MY thoughts on it. I also can't look at different cultures as being stupid, dumb or any other negative simply because they have been raised differently, in different countries. It's cultural!


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## Katie Finlay

Exactly. The fact that you can't comprehend that the people who eat dogs treat them the way the rest of the world treats chicken, or pig or cows or dolphins or whatever, is beyond me. You don't have to agree with it. I don't think a single person here doesn't think it's cruel but you have to understand that it's the norm for them.

Do they think the dogs aren't suffering? Honestly, I don't even think it crosses their mind because it's a food item, not a pet.

And this is coming from someone who hasn't eaten any "meat" but fish in over 12 years.


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## lynn oliver

Katie,I said culture is never an excuse. So Bob and Katie,anything goes. You wouldn't find anything unacceptable? Does that apply to treatment of say,women and children or do you feel you could comment on children working in sweat shops making clothes for us? No ,of course not,I forgot,it's cultural so none of your business. Chemical weapons used against civilians in Iraq,good job we kept out of that one! 
What would they have to do to an animal before you would condemn it unconditionally? Our treatment of animals is terrible too,but this thread was on dog abuse,the eating part is irrelevant. I realise that I have a totally different tolerance to cruelty to you both,we will never agree i guess. I was the child who paid for the beach donkey to have a rest! I just don't see how such glaring obvious abuse is causing dissent, but I assume it's not glaring obvious to everyone . Perhaps someone could explain how it's not cruel to ram dogs into a metal cage, brutalise them,skin them alive, please in words of one syllable?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Katie Finlay said:


> Do they think the dogs aren't suffering? Honestly, I don't even think it crosses their mind because it's a food item, not a pet.


Actually if you read the article they say they specifically cause suffering (fear, pain, etc) because they feel it makes the meat more tender. Their goal is to make it as miserable for the dogs as they can. So yes, they think the dogs are suffering, they just don't care. It's part of their process to make the meat taste better.


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## Tim Lynam

lynn oliver said:


> What would they have to do to an animal before you would condemn it unconditionally?


Just say you and the dog are Communist... That seemed to do the trick before.


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## Katie Finlay

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually if you read the article they say they specifically cause suffering (fear, pain, etc) because they feel it makes the meat more tender. Their goal is to make it as miserable for the dogs as they can. So yes, they think the dogs are suffering, they just don't care. It's part of their process to make the meat taste better.


I find it no different than the way we treat animals we eat here for the same results.


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## Katie Finlay

lynn oliver said:


> Katie,I said culture is never an excuse. So Bob and Katie,anything goes. You wouldn't find anything unacceptable? Does that apply to treatment of say,women and children or do you feel you could comment on children working in sweat shops making clothes for us? No ,of course not,I forgot,it's cultural so none of your business. Chemical weapons used against civilians in Iraq,good job we kept out of that one!
> What would they have to do to an animal before you would condemn it unconditionally? Our treatment of animals is terrible too,but this thread was on dog abuse,the eating part is irrelevant. I realise that I have a totally different tolerance to cruelty to you both,we will never agree i guess. I was the child who paid for the beach donkey to have a rest! I just don't see how such glaring obvious abuse is causing dissent, but I assume it's not glaring obvious to everyone . Perhaps someone could explain how it's not cruel to ram dogs into a metal cage, brutalise them,skin them alive, please in words of one syllable?


No one is arguing that it's not cruel, Lynn. We're simply pointing out that different cultures have different views, and you're unwilling to accept that response because you clearly feel your values surpass those of anyone else.

Yes, I agree this is sad and cruel. But I also think your condemnation of culture is sad and cruel.


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## Christopher Smith

lynn oliver said:


> I just don't see how such glaring obvious abuse is causing dissent, but I assume it's not glaring obvious to everyone .


I hear ya Lynn! It's almost as if you guys came from different countries, speak different languages and have different customs.


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## Katie Finlay

Also, if we treated everything the way the Japanese treat Kobe and Wagu beef, only celebrities could afford a steak dinner even just once a month.


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## lynn oliver

Katie,where did I say they didn't have different values? All I have ever said is that the practice of stuffing dogs into cages,brutalising them,skinning them alive and eating them is cruel. I just don't consider that negotiable for anything or anyone. If you want to make allowances that is up to you obviously. I don't consider my opinion more valid just unshakable.


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## Katie Finlay

lynn oliver said:


> Katie,where did I say they didn't have different values? All I have ever said is that the practice of stuffing dogs into cages,brutalising them,skinning them alive and eating them is cruel. I just don't consider that negotiable for anything or anyone. If you want to make allowances that is up to you obviously. I don't consider my opinion more valid just unshakable.


You said culture is an excuse. Do you even know what that sentence means?


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## lynn oliver

If at any time I wrote that culture was an excuse then it was in error, I have said,more than once and I say again,I do not consider culture to be a excuse for cruelty. I seriously can't see how I can be more clear. Don't care whose culture it is to stuff dogs into crates,brutalise them and skin them alive, I will always consider it cruel. I really don' tt see how that is contentious but if you want to disagree and you think culture over rides cruelty ,then that is your perogatve. I am commenting on one aspect of one culture,hardly arrogant or disrespectful.


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## Katie Finlay

You're changing your words around but you're saying the same thing. You view culture as an excuse people use to condone behavior you don't agree with.

You're coming from a privileged viewpoint. As far as the consumer goes, how their meat is treated while it's alive is not something they probably consider. They probably consider whether or not they can afford enough to feed their family.

When you're concerned with either of those, you're probably going to buy abused meat if it means you're children can eat.


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## lynn oliver

Of course I am saying the same thing, you are an apologist for cruelty and if you remember they deliberately cause the animal suffering in order for the meat to be tender. In your PC world that might be okay but it never will be in mine. Do you believe that it's okay to farm bears for their bile so that some old bloke can get his rocks off because he thinks it's an aphrodisiac? Where do you stand on Ivory? Would you be happy to have a gorillas hand for an ornament? How about female circumcision, any opinions yet on anything or is it all okay in Katies right on world,where anything goes in the name of culture? Bull fighting,cock fighting,dog fighting,bear baiting any opinions? 
Is it cheaper to stuff the dogs into cages brutalise them ,skin them alive? Does the meat feed more poor starving children if they torture it first? I have a radical idea, how about education to explain that it's cruel,pointless and that there are better ways. And another radical idea,the time you are spending stuffing the dogs into cages grow some vegetables.
It is always this ridiculous argument that if animals aren't mistreated the world will starve. You carry on making excuses, I will carry on trying to change things.


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## lynn oliver

And it is you using culture as an excuse for cruelty, it's their culture so that makes it acceptable. So,Katie, do you find that video clip disturbing,terrible,sad,did you look at your dogs and give them a hug or a pat,did you wish that nothing had to suffer like that,did you cry at the sheer horror of it, vow to try to do something to change things or just shrug your shoulders and think ' that's okay, it's their culture ' If you felt nothing then I feel sorry for you,if you can take emotion out of your life in order to make apologies then I condemn you. I have been called most things by more impressive adversaries than you but when it comes to animal cruelty I really don't care. I am still not sure if you actually see it as cruel or not. Is it cruel? Would you like it to stop? Very simple questions.


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## Daryl Ehret

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually if you read the article they say they specifically cause suffering (fear, pain, etc) because they feel it makes the meat more tender. Their goal is to make it as miserable for the dogs as they can. So yes, they think the dogs are suffering, they just don't care. It's part of their process to make the meat taste better.


In my part of the country, it's usually desirable to NOT kill wild game while it is running and under heightened levels of stress, because of the strongly disliked "gamey" taste it gives the meat. I'd be curious to know if the above mentioned is REALLY a preferred cultural preference, or just a PETA tactic to gain sympathizers to their cause.


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## Katie Finlay

Lynn, you're missing the point entirely and you're only reading what you want to read. 

I'll just go back to "this is why we can't have nice things."


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## Gillian Schuler

Sorry, I'm nearly losing the thread.

In end effect it is all a financial issue. If the consumer were to pay more for the meat of its choice, the conditions of the animals might change.

However, pigs kept in narrow cages where they cannot turn round and their piglets taken away from them at an early age and sick pigs thrown on to a heap outside the "factory" on to the "dead pile" before they are dead, pigs being skinned alive has nothing to do with culture but everything to do with profits in this day and age.

The Chinese love the brains of a monkey and scoop it out of them. This, I would subscribe to culture and have no influence over them.

I am not a great meat eater, I love vegetables, fish, etc. In fact I like a varied diet.

What I would appreciate, would be a society that would pay for animal worthy conditions leading up to the death of the animal.

A few years ago in Switzerland, a law was passed to ensure that calves / cows were allowed to a certain percentage of their time to be outdoors. Why couldn't the farmers think of this themselves before a law had to be passed?

We have to eat meat otherwise we would become anaemic?

I now tend to eat meat that has been running around our forests, void of medication, and lean.

If you have ever eaten Wild Boar Meat and have been able to compare it with supermarket meat, you will know what I mean.

I have a terrific recipe for Spaghetti Bolognese (without meat) but with all the vegetables and as meat substitute, mushrooms.

The same recipe but with mussels, is awesome.


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## rick smith

getting further off topic but since PETA was brought up, i went to their web site ... at least now i know what the letters stand for 
anyway, listed as one of their success stories was the following quote about "Army" animal abuse :

April 2013

Following more than three decades of campaigning by PETA, the Army Medical Department's Office of the Surgeon General confirmed a major shift in Army policy that will significantly reduce the number of animals cut apart, shot, stabbed, and killed in archaic trauma training drills at military bases. Specifically, a new Army policy prohibits the use of animals to train nonmedical personnel and states that these soldiers should be trained using exclusively "commercial training manikins, moulaged actors, cadavers, or virtual simulators." PETA continues to press the entire military to replace cruel trauma exercises on animals with modern non-animal methods for all service members

...... i spent over 20 years in the Navy, and altho i WASN'T a med type i participated in LOTS of mass casualty drills involving triage work, etc., all over the world.

fwiw, i NEVER saw or even heard of this type of "trauma training drill" that involved animals.....DID see lots of dumbies used as well as "dressed up" sailors and marines with simulated trauma injuries
....so, can any of you army types out there confirm this happened til PETA worked for three decades and got it "changed" in 2013 ????

as far as "animal abuse", the only people i know of that do not draw their own line in the sand and make it subjective and cultural are true practicing buddhists...maybe there are others ??


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## lynn oliver

Katie,the only point I ever wanted to make was it is cruel to stuff dogs into cages ,brutalise them and skin them alive. Others have tried to give reasons why it's done ie it is their culture. I don't dispute it is their culture but that doesn't stop it being cruel.


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## Christopher Smith

Daryl Ehret said:


> In my part of the country, it's usually desirable to NOT kill wild game while it is running and under heightened levels of stress, because of the strongly disliked "gamey" taste it gives the meat. I'd be curious to know if the above mentioned is REALLY a preferred cultural preference, or just a PETA tactic to gain sympathizers to their cause.


Daryl I feel you on this. I have never read a mainstream media report on dogs that was anywhere close to completely accurate. If the media can't get the story straight on a sniffer dog at the local airport, I have serious doubts about them getting the story straight about this.


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## Christopher Smith

And by the way, I've spoken to dog meat, connoisseurs from three continents and have never heard anything about stress making the meat taste better.


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## Matt Vandart

I just aint gonna watch that shit,it will make me sad.


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