# One descended testicle



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

One testicle is fine and dropped. The other has partially dropped, but vet feels it will stay undescended. Obviously the elevated temp of the undescended will reduce his fertility, but I'm not breeding. 

Are there any other issues I should be aware of?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> One testicle is fine and dropped. The other has partially dropped, but vet feels it will stay undescended. Obviously the elevated temp of the undescended will reduce his fertility, but I'm not breeding.
> 
> Are there any other issues I should be aware of?


The vet didn't mention neutering at full growth?


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Hi Connie,

Vet asked if I planned on neutering at 6 months. I said I would consider later, whenever that is.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Typically, at risk of cancer, most people neuter a monochrid between 3 and 5 years old.

My boy Yasko is a one-nutter too. I have heard of instances where the 2nd doesnt come down till 18 months old, but if it never comes down, he will be neutered in another 4 years or so.

These dogs should not be bred.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You may wish to consider having the undescended testicle removed after the dog is fully grown, even if you do not remove the descended one. There is a higher incidence of testicular tumors as well as torsion issues.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

So at what age should I neuter?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Hi Connie,
> 
> Vet asked if I planned on neutering at 6 months. I said I would consider later, whenever that is.


One missing testicle is not as much of a cancer risk as one undescended testicle.

I'd read up and probably get a second opinion. I know some fervently anti-neuter folks who will neuter a dog with one undescended testicle even before full growth.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Well, we have one undescended, not missing. So possibly have just the one removed for now. So what might I be looking at with the reduced testosterone, I wonder?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

FWIW, i've read (and believe) that dogs not meant for breeding should be nuetered after 2 yrs old in order to take advantage of testosterone/sexual maturity. my dog (2 yrs on 1-12) will be nuetered this spring. shouldn't affect his drive/aggression/etc. i hope.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I prefer the age of 3. Dogs are still growing and maturing ALOT at 2.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dogs at our club that have had it done have been after two yrs old. In looking back at my own dog (he has both) IF it would have been needed I like Mike's idea of waiting till 3. My guy did a fair amount of maturing between 2-3. 
Temperment wise, I didn't see a great deal of change after two but he developed more of the male characteristics such as more mass and head size.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

hmmmm. well, now i'm about to be convinced to wait another year. it's not as if there's any chance of him breeding even if i do wait; i just hope that if i do, the vet that "does the deed" doesn't do what the last one did: string them up and hang them over my rearview mirror w/out me knowing. 

nearly wrecked the car on that one!! (vet's w/a sense of humor--who needs 'em?  )


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Ann, what is your reason for neutering at all?

Unless for a medical reason, I'd just leave em in-tact.

That also eliminates the problem of dealing with vets with a sense of humor. Ofcouse, it just begs the question: How did your vet get into your car!?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You may also want to look into any time limit where problems may arize. Connie? Any studies on this one?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Ann, what is your reason for neutering at all?
> 
> Unless for a medical reason, I'd just leave em in-tact.
> 
> That also eliminates the problem of dealing with vets with a sense of humor. Ofcouse, it just begs the question: How did your vet get into your car!?


Neutering eliminates most reproductive cancers, and reproductive cancers are the most common cancers in most breeds.

There are various theories for why cancer in dogs has burgeoned the way it has in the last 50 or so years. So far, I'm leaning towards overvaccinating for most, and grain-heavy foods for pancreatic cancer.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> You may also want to look into any time limit where problems may arize. Connie? Any studies on this one?


I have heard under a year for undescended testicles (full growth for a missing testicle), but I have not looked it up.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I could have the undescended one removed and leave the other, I suppose. I want the testosterone left in his system. 

I'd like to remove a cancer threat. I wonder if there is any data on time left in vs. cancer risk. Also, this is a partially descended testicle. Might be different compared to a testicle that has not descended at all.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> I could have the undescended one removed and leave the other, I suppose. I want the testosterone left in his system.
> 
> I'd like to remove a cancer threat. I wonder if there is any data on time left in vs. cancer risk. Also, this is a partially descended testicle. Might be different compared to a testicle that has not descended at all.


I will look it up, but it will take a couple of days.

In your boat, I'd probably remove the undescended one immediately and the other one at maturity (maybe age 3).

But I'll look it up, see what stats exist.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Even a neutered dog has some testosterone in his system. The adrenal glands still produces a small amount of testosterone in the zona reticularis (this is true in females as well). Heck, even Zoso who was neutered at 4 months old has started lifting his leg within the last few months or so (he turned 3 years old this month). I wouldn't have a problem neutering the dog when he's physically mature around 18-24 months. Pitcairn suggests 9-12 months is fine (not necessarily for the undescended testis issue, just neutering in general). Behaviorally, both males and females are also very much affected by intrauterine position effect during development as they are for their current hormone level status, intact or not.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Ann, what is your reason for neutering at all?
> 
> Unless for a medical reason, I'd just leave em in-tact.
> 
> That also eliminates the problem of dealing with vets with a sense of humor. Ofcouse, it just begs the question: How did your vet get into your car!?


mike, if i neuter Brix, it'll mostly be to get an ILP # for him so i can trial him. he's not a "breedable" dog for a # of reasons: potentially soft ears, bad hips, his breeder never has registered his dam (and is STILL breeding her, selling pup for $300), etc., etc.

another reason is that i'll probably be getting a very nicely-bred and registered (!) bitch pup this coming spring/summer, and i don't want any "accidents". which still means i can wait til he's 3-ish to neuter.

as far as the vet getting into my car: well, i was busy in the clinic w/other surgeries, i don't lock my car, so she was a sneaky lil witch (i can't watch 4 vets ALL the time!). 

i seriously thought about preserving them somehow and telling horny male humans that they were my ex-husband's. but that would be giving too much credit to him :-\" :-\"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ann freier said:


> mike, if i neuter Brix, it'll mostly be to get an ILP # for him so i can trial him. he's not a "breedable" dog for a # of reasons: potentially soft ears, bad hips, his breeder never has registered his dam (and is STILL breeding her, selling pup for $300), etc., etc.
> 
> another reason is that i'll probably be getting a very nicely-bred and registered (!) bitch pup this coming spring/summer, and i don't want any "accidents". which still means i can wait til he's 3-ish to neuter.
> 
> ...


 
       Someone remind me not to upset Ann!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ted White said:


> One testicle is fine and dropped. The other has partially dropped, but vet feels it will stay undescended.


How old is the dog now? If it's partially dropped, ie you can feel it, it's just not all the way down in the sack, there are ways to 'coax' it into coming down, and staying down.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I read this about dogs who "should be neutered," per a knowledgeable breeder/author:

QUOTE:
Working dogs that are born with one testicle should be neutered but not until they are 2 years old. 
and
Any dog with a retained testicle should be neutered at a young age.END


So I emailed him tonight and asked for more explanation when he gets a chance, particularly what young means and why the risk is higher.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> How old is the dog now? If it's partially dropped, ie you can feel it, it's just not all the way down in the sack, there are ways to 'coax' it into coming down, and staying down.


Why do I get this awful image of Kadi sweet talkin' the reluctant testis down into its proper place? :lol:

Seriously though, I don't know how it's done, but just off hand, I'd think it'd have to be done very carefully or risk damage to the ductus deferens or epididymis or the testis itself. That'd be no fun to rupture.


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

It's really not hard to coax a testicle down into the sack if it's yo-yo'ing, I've done it many many times. Also, if you aren't going to show the dog there is a minor surgery that tacks to testicle in place if it's yo-yo'ing, forcing it to stay in the sack where it can develop and grow normally.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Seriously though, I don't know how it's done, .


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/27426.html


Scroll to Sue-Ann.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

BTW, googling manipulation of the dog's testicles lead one to surprising web sites.


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

It's really pretty common sense. If you can feel the testicle and you know where it is supposed to be you simply gently push it there. If the cord is long enough for it to reach it will slide into the sack quite easily.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

And there you go, I was saved the embarrassment of typing out the details  I've never actually had to do this (routine coaxing to keep it down), I just do a check on pups at 7-8 weeks and make sure both are there. But I have had to do a little hunting on occasion on a pup to find both. Or done some hunting only to eventually decide I'm not going to find the second one at that time. I've heard of them dropping as late as 12+ months (one person said their dog was almost 18 months) but I wouldn't count on that, if I can't feel them both at 8 weeks I'm concerned, and if I don't see it by 3 months I'm very concerned, by 6 months I assume it isn't coming down.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

My pup is 6 months old exactly. Vet notes say left testicle is "at inguinal canal." Does this mean that manipulation might work?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'd give it a try. It can't hurt (do it gently) and its worth it if it works.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I'll give it a try and post results. Hopefuly the undescended one hasn't withered too much.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Perhaps unrelated, but at what age do males lift a leg to pee if there's no other male around?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Perhaps unrelated, but at what age do males lift a leg to pee if there's no other male around?


Varied.

Some always do both and some always squat. 

But I have read that most lift their leg by a year or a year and a half.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Thanks! I got to thinking about low testosterone levels and possible outward symptoms.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Thanks! I got to thinking about low testosterone levels and possible outward symptoms.



Yeah. I gotta say that one isn't a solid sign. I've had females who marked (and lifted their legs to urinate)...... and I know a male PSD patrol dog who squats.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I had a long haired Siberian husky female as a foster who instead of lifting her leg would literally do a handstand so she could get more height on bushes. I'm not even kidding. She was a prissy thing though. Lily my Malinois won't mark in the yard, but she'll mark when we're out on the trail where other dogs have been around. She doesn't lift her leg though.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

My God what a vision!!! I hope I can sleep...


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Well this isn't so easy for me. Not easy to feel around. I'm not sure where this Inguinal Canal is. I wish I had a diagram.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Maybe this will help you Ted. 

CAUTION (especially for the guys): GRAPHIC

http://www.moorevet.com/Canine/Dog_Neuter.html


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Hey Pauline,

That helps a lot. The canal I'm looking for is off to the side of the penis, not on it. There's a bulbous gland that I had no idea if it was the testicle or not. 

I'll go back and look off to the side as the picture indicates.

Thanks so much for that!


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Man! I am having zero luck finding anything at all. And I am the laughing stock of the household.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ted,  No photos necessary!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Here's a diagram from my anatomy class last semester that shows the descent of the testis into the inguinal canal. Hooray for the gubernaculum testis!


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Thanks for that Maren. I just can't palpate the missing unit, although I'm pretty sure where to look. I'm calling my vet and see what he says about doing this.

Either way, he won't be bred (dog, not vet).


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Well I took pup in to have the vet milk that nut into place. No go. However, his opinion is:

Partially descended testicles in the Inguinal Canal are far less of a cancer risk than those left in the abdomen. While there's not a huge amount of data on this, he commented this potential cancer difference may be due to the higher temperature associated with a completely undescended testicle in the abdomen.

The stuck nut is firmly placed at this point, so tortion isn't an issue.

In the event of tumor growth, he can palpate during routine checkups, etc and see if there's any increase in size.

Any way you slice it (no pun) in his opinion, there's just very little chance of anything happenning, certainly before I plan to have him neutered on his third birthday.

And he charged me $0 for this.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Well it looks like you've gotten a real deal on medical advice and anatomy lessons.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Yep... but downright embarassing.


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## Angelique Cadogan (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree 3 is my choice too, my male got neutered at 3 1/2 and he acts the same. A dog at 2 is still immature and has a lot of growing to do mentally and physically. Dogs do change from 2 to 3 years of age..


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## Angelique Cadogan (Jan 3, 2008)

Ted White said:


> Yep... but downright embarassing.


Ted here are 2 photos of the same dog taken a year apart. This male was mine (moons ago) I took the top picture when he was 2 1/2 , then later (bottom photo) when he was 3 1/2. same spot ( property up in Los gatos, CA) As you can see how much a dog changes in a year. You'll see his chest has dropped the head/scull has matured, the muscle mass on his neck is very apparent, the body has matured, the height never changed but the mass has. Unfortunately the top photo was not sunny, but you can see pretty good the body structure.I hope it makes sense to you. 
I was doing a project in College (uc davis) anyway I love those pictures to show what a year makes when a dog has not matured yet. i ended up neutering him at 6 years of age , he died at 9 years of age. He was a great dog, very powerful, I almost got my ofa cert.. but he got good to excellent instead. One in Million in the Mastiff world..
here is the link:
http://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r77/cadogancna/?action=view&current=2008-01-04-1721-03_edited.jpg


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Those are great pictures Angelique. They certainly make the point


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It isn't just the hormones for the muscle mass, though. As you all know, I like to present different sides and there's going to be the genetics and the developmental effects too. Everyone knows males with feminine heads and so-so muscling and big blocky, masculine females, intact or not. My now 3 year old has very nice muscling in his legs and neck (and he doesn't even care to play tug, so it's not like he's doing something to intentionally develop it) and he was neutered at 4 months. Heck, he looks like a bloody mountain lion! Of course, I'll also chalk that up to a raw diet and lots of off leash exercise. 8) He doesn't have a particularly blocky head, though he's not likely purebred, so who knows what he was "supposed" to look like. *shrug*





















And there is always too much of a good thing...


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Nice muscles (on the doggie). Certainly genes play a huge role. Many genes may not be (fully) expressed without the hormonal triggers.


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