# Human aggression/ human based fight...



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Genetic? 

Nature or Nurture? human or mother taught? or natural?

Consider a dog that is reasonably mature mentally (7-30) months (depending on bloodline)
...with NO training or bitework imprinting...it is made to realize a person is a threat, and it engages forwardly without any hesitation...

a puppy that bites you seriously if you try to mess with him or his stuff? and bites the first time...

I remember touching on this with one of the Lyda boys...a year or so ago...

I picked up a fresh presa pup at 6 weeks old (19 years ago), gave it a pig ear to chew in the passenger seat...tried to pet the pup on the 5 hour ride home, had to pull over because the fukker lit me up...

The mother of the litter was social and friendly, the offsite father was aggressive and nasty..but was not a nerve bag, and was the fabled "real deal" one in a million dog...imho

pup/dog was on a scale from 1 to 10

socially aggressive 8-9
territorial 9-10
possesive 9-10
(this assessment made by me at age of 6 months, with NO guard/bitework training/encouragement...)

Dog at 6 months would engage anyone who invaded his territory. had a few live bites in his life, and never backed down even with 3 broken ribs from a baseball bat...
with NO real training.

current dog..

Dog was kennel kept for almost the whole first year, NO manwork..some prey work before teething...rag/tug..play...

at 8 months or so. tried some bitework with a decoy..dog was a little flat and somewhat weak..put dog in kennel...had guy give "stink eye"..and raise a shovel in a threatening manner...

took dog out to do bitework, dog engaged sleeve full grip and bit aggressively on hard sleeve, guy raised stick...dog popped off and grabbed shirt on stick arm, almost biting for real...

Dog was then back tied and introduced to sleeve in "prey". bit without hestitation, aggressively...

4th bite session, introduced to suit on-line, bit guy from armpit to chest ( over-confident decoy that would not put jacket on backwards and tried to dance around, dog went inside jacket on a "juke"move) and had to be pried off...

trained or genetic aggression?

(addition...current dog was tied out without handler present, to explain the encouragement/pack thing)


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Stick with pimpin out strippers :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Stick with pimpin out strippers :lol:


LOL..

a topic that recently is relevant on here...
what are your opinions on a dog that will fight people with no training...nature or nurture?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Nature, if it's nuture then it's trained.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

if no training - genetic. I've met a few nasty nasty puppies as young as about 2-3 months old...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Not too many dogs today are bred for true fight drive,unfortunately, thats why there are a lot of washouts in most PP/PSD programs. If I could find a dog that has true fight drive, and a stable temperament, that is an animal I would cherish.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

the reason I started this post was part the recent discussions, and part a short non-eventful debate on human aggression with jerry/jay ? lyda (not sure, neither was he, on the point, as far as I remember, kinda on the fence), who said (for the most part) they thought it was trained/ influenced by humans and not natural...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

I can see the views of both sides of the argument of nature vs nurture on human aggression. But I have to say that in my lifetime I have seen only 3 dogs with natural stable fight drive directed towards, and not limited to, humans. a fila, a presa and a rottie (that I bred and owned) These were dogs that had no agitation whatsoever, not even a kid running a fence with a stick. And these dogs would not back down from a fight or intruder. I personally believe that type of aggression is genetic. If it was trained, there would be a time eventually when said dog would be under so much stress, survival instinct would inevitably replace training, and it may most likely tuck tail & run. But as I said before, a truly fight driven dog is a rare find. I wish I had just one more[-o< They can be, in the right hands, an absolute dream to work with. But thats JMO.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

the other night me and a couple friends were sitting on the back porch drinking beer. It was dark already and lucy was sitting out there with us. Well one of my buddies got a phone call and walked around the corner of the house. He was probably around there for 20 30 minutes. talking to his gf I guess anyways when he come back around the corner lucy jetted off the porch and ran up to him barking and raising all kind of hell. The hair in between her shoulder blades was standing up like a mohawk kind of. Eric kept walking even though she was barking rather aggressively. when he got too close she grabbed the pocket of his cargo shorts and started shaking the hell out of him. Now she has had very little training some tug but but no real bitework since she's only 4 months so I guess she's just protective by nature I don't know. What I do know though is every time I talk to the guy I got her from which is about once a week since we all train together he tells me I really wish I wouldve kept her if you wanna sell her I will buy her back. He seems to think she's gonna be special. here's what she done to my pants the other day when we were walking across the yard and some other pics of her barking at a dog


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I suspect genetic has a fair bit to do with things. I read somewhere they have run tests on the most serious violent offenders in prisons and found definite difference in brain chemistry/physiology and hromone levels, cant remember the exact details. I guess in some cases the interaction of environment can also allow expression of the genetics all though in some cases I dont think it matters like with psychopaths.

I have owned only one dog I would consider had a natural stable fight drive. An ACD who would never back down from danger, but she seemd to be able to discriminate based on my body language. She was incredibly aggressive and would attack without any hesitation with biting if anyone threatened me and didnt back off, but in no other situation did she ever show any aggression even to strangers as long as they were friendly. She was quite a social dog and very smart. A one off for me, never had another like her.

She usually warned first and if that wasnt heeded she would attack.

She was a companion dog and not a dog I ever trained for sport, protection or anything else.

I had another who liked to rough house. If you put on gloves and protective gear she would launch herself on to you and bite hard, but only if you had protection on. She would go crazy if she saw you gearing up. She loved it, no holds barred full on attack. But she wouldnt do it unless you had protection on. As soon as she felt bare skin she backed off.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I guess really you'd have to analyse each situation when a pup first bit a person.

Our Fila, after a train journey, at 4 months, bit my friend as he offered to lift the pup into his car. This was the first and last time he bit anything from dogs to humans in his 14,5 years of life. Maybe he was frightened of being "taken" from me?

The elder GSD checked the situation out well at his first protection session at 9 months and bit so hard into the young dog sleeve, he helper was forced to change it (happily).

Some pups are more willing to put up a fight when challenged in whatever situation, than others.

Our over-friendly younger GSD started to growl when one of my neighbours held him in a friendly clinch. A lot of dogs do not accept this from "subordinates"! He also immediately faced the challenge of the helper at the first protection session.

I guess there are dogs who let themselves be "man-handled" and dogs that don't. Guess it has to do with genetics. 

I control it outside of sport :lol:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think most dogs will not go out of their way to fight a human. Herding breeds like Gsds, malis, dutchies etc have what it takes genetically to be trained to fight humans but they seem less likely to do so without training than some molossers like filas, boerboels etc.
The police/protection dogs we have are a combination of nature and nurture, the have all the drives but need training to 'polish' them.
My 10 yr old GSD was never trained but he allows friendly strangers, vets to pet him and he also bit those he considered threats to himself or me, not a fear biter and also not overtly aggressive. Still i can't compare his 'biting style' to those of well trained dogs. He would have been better with good training.
I think the dogs we have today are perfect, we trained them to act in 'specific' ways sort of. It doesn't really matter to me if the dog sees a suspect as a fighting partner or a large rabbit, as long as it bites well and hard and shows no fear and little pain tolerance. The end justifies the means with police/protection dogs.
JMO.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

The vast majority of dogs will not bite a human out of aggression. Defensive bites are what I normally see where there is actual skin contact. There are those rare dogs that will do it with no training so I think that dogs that do bite without training are strictly genetic. It can be trained and I've seen some really good street dogs but I think they have that genetic make up that needed to be brought out by training.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Seems to me if it were training, any dog could be trained to do it. Since that isn't even close to being true, I would have to assume it is genetic and the dog has to have it in him to train him. You still can't really put something in there that doesn't exist.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I would say genetic, but then there are also different forms of aggression to consider, in terms to how conducive to training it might be. Basically meaning, there is aggression that is motivated by fear, and aggression that is not. 

What about the so-called "serious dog" that doesn't bite, because it knows the threat is not real and isn't motivated about _'biting for fun'_? But. I would consider the propensity if felt necessary, the willingness if urged, and the desire to bite regardless of any reason, ALL to be based on a complex combination of genetic AND learned behaviors. 

Would a human fight another human without any training? I'm sure you can imagine valid examples to demonstrate this. Some people have a looong fuse, and go _BIG boom,_ even the most cautious and careful type who when something held very dear to them is threatened, suddenly and finally disregard all concerns about personal safety. _Genetics, thresholds, perception, and training are all significant. _ 

As far as testing goes, it seems it's always easier to evoke fear based aggression...



> *TESTING FOR HUMAN DIRECTED AGGRESSION IN DOGS*
> _Joanne A.M. van der Borg1,*, Bonne Beerda1,
> Monique Ooms1, Adriana Silveira de Souza1, Marjan van
> Hagen2, Bas Kemp1
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm convinced that this is mostly a handler problem. 

I'm not convinced it relates to the breeds but here again, the type of handler that chooses Molossers, or Shepherds or field or toy dogs, etc. Molossers btw, are usually very sensitive to their owners wishes unless their owners see them as some type of God-Dog!!

The smaller the dog, the greater the need to show aggression. A lot of larger dogs growl and here the handler has to react if he can see no reason for it. 

A great number of dogs, large or small, have the instinct to guard their handlers and properties. Whether they would follow through with a bite is questionable.

The main problem is with the handler not being able to read his dog. If my dogs show aggression at the end of the lead for no reason, i.e. at another dog, sheep or deer in a fenced field, cats, birds, etc. I consider this as warranting a disciplinary action for going against me on the lead.

The dog who is actively trying to warn me of a forthcoming danger reacts differently and calls for my immediate awareness.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

You can't have it both ways. If fear biters are genetically weak dogs and there seems to be some consensus on that, then other forms of aggression are most likely largely based in genetics as well. I'm actually surprised that some of you are saying that aggression is mostly an environmental factor (nurture) as I expect you have been around dogs for a while to have found this forum. That you feel aggression is mostly environmentally based indicates somehing else entirely. A dog can be trained to attack a human if the dog has some genetic component that will allow it to do so. You really can't pick and choose what kinds of aggression you can "blame" on the handler and which you can "blame" on the bad or good combo of DNA. If your dog is a fear biter then it's the breeders fault but the breeder thinks it's your fault and if it's a good dog them you think it's your good training and the breeder thinks its the genetics. wtf? It is all genetics with some environmental influence, but an aggressive shit is going to be an aggressive shit no matter what you do and the confident stable dog is going to be confident and stable in spite of less than superb handling. (You might be able to train a fear biter to fight a person and you might not. sAme about a good dog.) That is the very definition of confident and stable is it not? If a handler messed a dog up by average or even crappy handling then the dog was not a genetically good dog to begin with. You would have to abuse the crap out of a sound dog to ruin it. The more dogs you live with the more you will see that. That's just an opinion.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't necessarily believe that fear biters are genetically weak, just what we've bred away from. Any wild canid will bite out of fear if cornered or handled. Even one's raised as "pets" will react to excessive stress with a bite. That's what's a part of being wild.
Although usless for what we want or desire to work with, I look at the fear as biters more of a throw back to the wild cousins. It will pop up in breeding more often then the serious, no fear dogs desired for a working dog. That takes serious, consistent breeding.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Hey Bob, I agree with that. I was thinking of "weak" as "undesirable" not necessarily "worse". I see how what I wrote came off that way thought. Good point.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Seems to me if it were training, any dog could be trained to do it. Since that isn't even close to being true, I would have to assume it is genetic and the dog has to have it in him to train him. You still can't really put something in there that doesn't exist.


True, what i mean is training enhances what is already there. Think of all those prey monsters that need to pressured a lot in defense before they display serious aggression to decoys, they had the aggression there somewhere but needed training to really bring it out. If we did not stress these dogs on the tie-outs doing civil agitation they would never bite a suspect and we'd think the dog had no aggression. Nature/genetic factor is a must but training plays a big role also.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

This is an interesting article about the silver fox study on gentics and aggression.

http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/Index.htm


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Daryl Ehret said:


> What about the so-called "serious dog" that doesn't bite, because it knows the threat is not real and isn't motivated about _'biting for fun'_? But. I would consider the propensity if felt necessary, the willingness if urged, and the desire to bite regardless of any reason, ALL to be based on a complex combination of genetic AND learned behaviors.
> ..


I am not sure that I could have trained my serious dog to bite for fun. She hated any form of rough housing but if she sensed real danger to me she showed real aggression and would move boldy forward. Try and get her to playfight or go for someone who she knew wasnt a real threat may have been impossible. She seemed to read my body language and if I wasnt seriously worried then neither was she.


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