# 'Puppy Circles'



## Cassandra Lane (Jul 2, 2010)

I was wondering about the generic Pros and Cons to puppy circles. I really only hear it coming from Schutzhund people, and have never heard other sports/PP mention it. 

It appears to be for drive building for a pup who is not yet into it. Can someone explain the point of this exercise?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

There is a lot more to it that can be described by the written word. Pups are worked in prey, a good bite is rewarded by carrying rag to truck, not good response is not rewarded and pup gets put up without reward. So basically in the initial stages (after teething) pups improve their "strike" and polish their prey drives (if they have it). 

In later stages the length of the line is shortened and there is less movement side to side of the rag, helper is closer (a whole new dynamic), pups locked in prey will not bite and are worked slightly differently. Overall you learn a ton about each individual pup and develop a plan to fit each. Also introduce helper contact and stick. I can only think of good things  Once strikes and bites are consistent and hard the sleeve is introduced, it's all about bite/strike development and positive interaction with the helper. 

Some dogs go through each phase with flying colors, some require more work. Extremely interesting to watch these guys develop and understand the differences in temperament (drives, thresholds, nerve) and the differences in training techniques for each individual dog.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

A lot of people circle puppies to engage the dog with the helper. They win the toy, and then circle around to bring it back to the helper to start the game again. That way engaging the helper is reinforcing from puppyhood.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I would also ask if when you say "puppy circles" are you referring to a helper working several puppies at the same time formed in a circle/semi-circle?


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Good point Keith...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I used to train mostly PP..

I used to do circles with various dogs (the group circle)..

It would bring out some competition in the lower drive dogs, or help them "get it", they could see what the other dogs are doing and some improved almost instantly.

it could bring out more drive through frustration or dogs trying to "pack" up or whatever...


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I like to just tie a pup or pups out every time I train. Sometimes it helps them to see the other dogs work and kinda figure out what they are supposed to do with that drive of theirs. Some pups will just lay there anyway and start working when they are ready. I think its just better then letting them in the crate the whole time you train cause when you bring them out and try to give them a bite they do what most puppies do, they try to explore. Tying them out gives them a chance to look and smell around and then when that gets boring now they can focus on the helper and they learn that is where the fun comes from! JMHO


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Probably a stupid question, but ... how do you know if they're barking at the helper or at the other dogs? 
And does it matter?

Laura


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Not stupid at all. It's not that hard to figure out which dogs are teeing off the other dogs versus focusing on the man. To me it matters. I don't see any benefit if the dog gets all worked up if all they are looking at is the dog on either side of them. Most times in this case whatever you think you might gain doesn't transfer once the other dogs are out of the picture.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Probably a stupid question, but ... how do you know if they're barking at the helper or at the other dogs?
> And does it matter?
> 
> Laura


I never did it for barking, I wanted to see how they reacted when given the opportunity to bite something..

tied up at a distance, who knows.. in a circle or something close to you, you can see where he is looking and what he is barking at when you are right in front of him. I saw some dogs that were definitely focused on other dogs..


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Ah, thank you.

I had a pup that would engage with the helper no matter if there were ten other pups on the field or nobody else. And I have one that would focus on the other dogs more than the helper so I of course thought puppy circles were obviously stupid.  But when I said I wanted to avoid them for that reason it seemed like I got a reaction like not to worry about it. So I thought I was obviously stupid.  

Laura


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Ah, thank you.
> 
> I had a pup that would engage with the helper no matter if there were ten other pups on the field or nobody else. And I have one that would focus on the other dogs more than the helper so I of course thought puppy circles were obviously stupid.  But when I said I wanted to avoid them for that reason it seemed like I got a reaction like not to worry about it. So I thought I was obviously stupid.
> 
> Laura


lol...so how did it all turn out with the two dogs?


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Puppy number one turned out to be a high drive dog who was a little much for me as a beginner. He had more drive than pretty much any GSD I know. He was sold as a detection dog and does a good job from what I hear. 

Puppy number two is now 13 months old. I ended up not doing puppy circles and had him barking behind a fence a couple times. But I personally didn't think that was much different...he would key off the other dog. Take him out from behind the fence and he'd lock up on front of the helper. So I put him away for a while as he's a really immature pup and just recently brought him back out. He was stealth for a couple sessions but the third got a couple barks out of him. He's too young in the head to do anything else right now. My plan is to continue this to get him used to the whole deal and then maybe wake him up a little when he's ready. That could be the wrong thing to do but at least I have a plan. 

I probably should just put him away again but I'm bored.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Also introduce helper contact and stick. I can only think of good things  Once strikes and bites are consistent and hard the sleeve is introduced, it's all about bite/strike development and positive interaction with the helper.
> 
> .


 Not the way we do it. In our training methodology the helper/sleeve is not introduced until 12-14 months of age when true defense work is introduced. Our training director believes until that point dogs are not mature enough to handle REAL protection work. His belief is that when the helper/sleeve is introduced too young it is just a game to the dog, and remains so. In our training after the point the helper work is introduced the helper is ALWAYS seen as a potential threat. Over time offensive fight drive is then developed. Prior to the 12 month all the work is in prey with the handler and a tug. I believe after watching how it is done in a lot of places this is the path to true POWER! The more I learn the more I appreciate the program I am in.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I remember this being done years ago. It can help young dogs who have not much interest in biting.

Our German helper was working a Rottweiler 2-3 years' ago and the young dog showed no interest. The helper asked me to tie my young dog up near to the other dog and worked mine first. The Rottweiler showed more interest afterwards.

I don't know the outcome of this but in the club we sometimes trained at in Germany near to Rottweil, I noticed that all the Rottweiler handlers had their dogs up at the fence whilst the helper worked other dogs. 

I suppose there are some benefits - I was a nervous wreck by the time I had quietened my dog to take him on the field!!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Not the way we do it. In our training methodology the helper/sleeve is not introduced until 12-14 months of age when true defense work is introduced. Our training director believes until that point dogs are not mature enough to handle REAL protection work. His belief is that when the helper/sleeve is introduced too young it is just a game to the dog, and remains so. In our training after the point the helper work is introduced the helper is ALWAYS seen as a potential threat. Over time offensive fight drive is then developed. Prior to the 12 month all the work is in prey with the handler and a tug. I believe after watching how it is done in a lot of places this is the path to true POWER! The more I learn the more I appreciate the program I am in.


We do not have a fixed age to introduce the sleeve. Depending on the dog it can happen anywhere from 7-14 months. The path to true power resides in the dog, either it is there or not.


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## sarah lewis (May 27, 2011)

We starting doing this at our club, there are a few dogs (including one of mine) who's prey drive goes up and down (not consistent), its difficult to put my male in drive if he is not, or he would chase and bite but it was super lazy.

My male has a very competitive streak so as soon as he sees the other dogs winning the tug he goes nuts, it has helped him a lot so far, and puts him in high drive almost instantly, gets him biting and holding/barking really well. 

So hopefully it becomes habit for him eventually.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Steve Burger said:


> Not the way we do it. In our training methodology the helper/sleeve is not introduced until 12-14 months of age when true defense work is introduced. Our training director believes until that point dogs are not mature enough to handle REAL protection work. His belief is that when the helper/sleeve is introduced too young it is just a game to the dog, and remains so. In our training after the point the helper work is introduced the helper is ALWAYS seen as a potential threat. Over time offensive fight drive is then developed. Prior to the 12 month all the work is in prey with the handler and a tug. I believe after watching how it is done in a lot of places this is the path to true POWER! The more I learn the more I appreciate the program I am in.


We do it this way. It works so well..You get power with absolute control..like nothing else I have ever seen in the sport. Love it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> Not the way we do it. In our training methodology the helper/sleeve is not introduced until 12-14 months of age when true defense work is introduced. Our training director believes until that point dogs are not mature enough to handle REAL protection work. His belief is that when the helper/sleeve is introduced too young it is just a game to the dog, and remains so. In our training after the point the helper work is introduced the helper is ALWAYS seen as a potential threat. Over time offensive fight drive is then developed. Prior to the 12 month all the work is in prey with the handler and a tug. I believe after watching how it is done in a lot of places *this is the path to true POWER!* The more I learn the more I appreciate the program I am in.



Sorry...this just made me snicker. And please describe where in a Schutzhund trial you ever would need "true defense work" and "REAL protection work." :-k


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sorry...this just made me snicker. And please describe where in a Schutzhund trial you ever would need "true defense work" and "REAL protection work." :-k


who said anything about NEEDing it?


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## Cassandra Lane (Jul 2, 2010)

If the person wished to cross the dog over to PP style training after (if) they accomplished a 3, wouldnt you want to train in a way that ALWAYS shows the helper as a threat?

I have always assumed the helper was the dogs friend and playmate when younger and slowly turned into a bad guy as the dog grew up. But, maybe raising a dog to always think the decoy is a threat is a better way to go.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Cassandra Lane said:


> If the person wished to cross the dog over to PP style training after (if) they accomplished a 3, wouldnt you want to train in a way that ALWAYS shows the helper as a threat?
> 
> I have always assumed the helper was the dogs friend and playmate when younger and slowly turned into a bad guy as the dog grew up. But, maybe raising a dog to always think the decoy is a threat is a better way to go.


really depends on the dog..most sch dogs cannot handle that...


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## sarah lewis (May 27, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sorry...this just made me snicker. And please describe where in a Schutzhund trial you ever would need "true defense work" and "REAL protection work." :-k



I would much rather a dog with balanced drives (even for SchH) then a dog who worked only in prey.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sorry...this just made me snicker. And please describe where in a Schutzhund trial you ever would need "true defense work" and "REAL protection work." :-k


 
The H&B, stick hits after the escape the reattack, courage test stick hits, are designed to work the dog in defense. While it's true certain exercises can be trained in prey, it certainly does NOT mean everyone does it, or that everyone agrees it's even correct to train these exercises in prey for that matter. The purpose of various aspects of the exercises is to show that the dog can handle pressure from the helper.

Before anyone gets into a tizzy about this statement, please be advised I''m not gonna get into a tired rerun of the typical back & forth this conversation generates from people who don't actually train in schutzhund, it's simply not worth it to me, either you train in schutzhund or you don't.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I started in Schutzhund and I'm not a basher as I like it still (I got my dog's BH and AD a few months back...we may try something fun like the WH in the future), but then again, you can train a dog up through the 3s without ever putting the dog in real defense. It's also likely a terminology issue. I think a helper/decoy can show a dog pressure and presence along with prey without putting into flight or fight "I'm going to kick your butt so you need to defend yourself or you might DIE" defense. Probably just a terminology thing as I'm sure others don't agree. Whatevs...  And nothing wrong with only using prey with pressure/presence either. It's a sport, not street fighting. 

PS: I will add that I have been pleased with the number of co-hosted Schutzhund/PSA trials lately, that's super cool


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

As for where do you need defense in Schutzhund? 

It should be a part of a balanced dog, and part of your training. This sport was never meant to be for prey dogs only..it has become that way as people want points over all else, easier to handle a dog kept only in prey. But you can have balance in a dog and still score well, and a few of us believe Schutzhund is more then a game of tug and train for more then just trial day.

I cringe when I think of how weak the sport is becoming at a lot of clubs. We train with defense here, on ALL the dogs, show dogs included. So for people to say that most dogs can’t handle it..I ask, have you ever trained this way?? More dogs can handle it, then the people can from my experience.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

why does it seem people comment the most about things they know the least about?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> The H&B, stick hits after the escape the reattack, courage test stick hits, are designed to work the dog in defense. While it's true certain exercises can be trained in prey, it certainly does NOT mean everyone does it, or that everyone agrees it's even correct to train these exercises in prey for that matter. The purpose of various aspects of the exercises is to show that the dog can handle pressure from the helper.
> 
> Before anyone gets into a tizzy about this statement, please be advised I''m not gonna get into a tired rerun of the typical back & forth this conversation generates from people who don't actually train in schutzhund, it's simply not worth it to me, either you train in schutzhund or you don't.


I'm not sure I'm reading you here correctly, Susan. The stick threats *before* the dog goes into bite, are for me, far more relevant. When the dog is biting, he mostly doesn't bother about the hits (which, let's face it, are not life threatening, and are very often ignored).


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm not sure I'm reading you here correctly, Susan. The stick threats *before* the dog goes into bite, are for me, far more relevant. When the dog is biting, he mostly doesn't bother about the hits (which, let's face it, are not life threatening, and are very often ignored).


Agreed, especially with helpers like Vincent Honselaar who will actually test the dogs. I was lucky enough to attend a couple seminars with him. He is the real deal.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tracey Hughes said:


> As for where do you need defense in Schutzhund?
> 
> It should be a part of a balanced dog, and part of your training. This sport was never meant to be for prey dogs only..it has become that way as people want points over all else, easier to handle a dog kept only in prey. But you can have balance in a dog and still score well, and a few of us believe Schutzhund is more then a game of tug and train for more then just trial day.
> 
> I cringe when I think of how weak the sport is becoming at a lot of clubs. We train with defense here, on ALL the dogs, show dogs included. So for people to say that most dogs can’t handle it..I ask, have you ever trained this way?? More dogs can handle it, then the people can from my experience.


Yes, I've had my dog worked in very hard defense. I've seen other dogs worked in very hard defense at two different training facilities, both good dogs and dogs that had no business being worked in protection at all. This wasn't "let's put the dog on the prey table and work grips for a bit" defense either. Like I said, there's a big difference between showing the dog some presence and some pressure (some decoys/helpers do this naturally and automatically bring more presence) and making the dog think they have to seriously defend themselves or they'll get hurt or killed. Why in the world you'd *need* to do this for a Schutzhund dog, I don't know. 

Maybe you can describe HOW you work your dogs in defense because every time this gets brought up, "working in defense" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

When a helper puts a dog in defense, he IS making the dog think he needs to defend himself. At that point the dog does not think it's just a game, that's what's meant by putting a dog in defense. It either is or isn't in defense, there is no inbetween. Also keep in mind a dog doesn't have to actually come off the sleeve and be chased to determine whether or not it has good nerve, that's just the most obvious sign.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sometimes, it is not that the dog feels it HAS to fight to defend itself from serious harm, threats,or death, 

sometimes the dog WANTS to fight, because it is "challenged" to fight, there is a huge difference between those responses.

just as some people are fighters, so are some dogs..the know a "threat" is there, but they believe they can win, they want to fight and go for it, not always because they HAVE to..


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

And don't forget a good dog can do it all (SchH, MWD, Police work, ring shit, agility etc etc). If a dog is suited for one venue only and not the others then it is a mediocre dog, a notch above a full time shitter.


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## sarah lewis (May 27, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Sometimes, it is not that the dog feels it HAS to fight to defend itself from serious harm, threats,or death,
> 
> sometimes the dog WANTS to fight, because it is "challenged" to fight, there is a huge difference between those responses.
> 
> just as some people are fighters, so are some dogs..the know a "threat" is there, but they believe they can win, they want to fight and go for it, not always because they HAVE to..


This is what I see with my bulldogges, they enjoy the fight, they want the challenge and the thrive a confrontation with the helper... much more then they work in prey only.

They are not being driven into defense but just challenged by the helpers, its enough to get them going especially my male, he works in this drive much better then just waving a prey item in front of him, he wants a fight and a challenge... I don't think he feels like his life is in danger and he is fighting for his life, he just can't back down to a challenge.


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## sarah lewis (May 27, 2011)

will fernandez said:


> So when all of you who work your dogs in defense to balance the drives, do you find you have problems with your outs, grips and such? Once we know our patrol dogs are able to withstand a serious fight, it is very seldom that we will train this way again. Your dogs either have IT or they don't, much less stressful for them to work in prey, where their minds are clearer and training is actually happening and not testing



I don't think you should work in defense first, work in prey first and then balance the drives with defense.

I took a video today of a puppy circle at my club.... not the best but hey it is what it is lol.

http://youtu.be/R1P_qJTh1z0


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