# IPO Championship Question-



## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Is it a even playing field for all competitors if the helper at a championship trial is a dogs home club helper?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Is it a even playing field for all competitors if the helper at a championship trial is a dogs home club helper?


The answer to that question is no.

Is it a even playing field for all competitors if the dog at a championship trial is not allowed to work on his helper because the helper is working the triai?

No, that dog just lost his training helper while everyone else got to keep theirs. 

So it will never be an even playing field to all competitors.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Results don't lie, how many dogs win championships at,

1. Their home field
2. Worked by their helper

Any statistical brains here?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

It's called home field advantage 
It your club hosts a big event and your club dog qualifies?
Then you're the lucky one.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Is it a even playing field for all competitors if the helper at a championship trial is a dogs home club helper?


No it's not an even playing field. But nothing else in the sport is on an even playing field either. 

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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

The host club has the advantage. But then again it is a lot of work to host a CH or regional event. 

I hear people complain all the time, I tell them have your club host the event....the crickets go quite. If the helper is good and does a good job their should be no issues.

Find most competitors want safe helper work


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mario Fernandez said:


> The host club has the advantage. But then again it is a lot of work to host a CH or regional event.
> 
> I hear people complain all the time, I tell them have your club host the event....the crickets go quite. If the helper is good and does a good job their should be no issues.
> 
> Find most competitors want safe helper work


+1


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Thanks for the posts, we where talking about this and my experience with Championships is watching the big euro ones on wd.eu never been to one in the US. Some of the stories I heard are very interesting though and it would seem that "luck" can play a part. I am not sure but I don't think the euro ones are "hosted" by a club so it might be hard to get your training helper, but then again maybe not I'll ask my euro friends. The other thing that came up was why would IPO 1 and 2 be in a Championship? no one knew this either? the ones I have seen only have the 3's-


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Thanks for the posts, we where talking about this and my experience with Championships is watching the big euro ones on wd.eu never been to one in the US. Some of the stories I heard are very interesting though and it would seem that "luck" can play a part. I am not sure but I don't think the euro ones are "hosted" by a club so it might be hard to get your training helper, but then again maybe not I'll ask my euro friends. The other thing that came up was why would IPO 1 and 2 be in a Championship? no one knew this either? the ones I have seen only have the 3's-


The way I have seen most Ch handle ones and twos is if there is room for them. If they get too many 3's they bump the ones and two's.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Thanks for the posts, we where talking about this and my experience with Championships is watching the big euro ones on wd.eu never been to one in the US. Some of the stories I heard are very interesting though and it would seem that "luck" can play a part. I am not sure but I don't think the euro ones are "hosted" by a club so it might be hard to get your training helper, but then again maybe not I'll ask my euro friends. The other thing that came up was why would IPO 1 and 2 be in a Championship? no one knew this either? the ones I have seen only have the 3's-


Some European organizations do it the same way it's done here and others don't. But either way the helpers at the trial are also someones training helper and some have rule saying that helpers can't work dogs going into the championship and some don't. It depends on the organization. 

As to the 1 and 2 level dogs. Why wouldn't they show?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lisa,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by our initial post.

When we start off in IPO 1 then often we enter a trial at a club and beforehand we often go to let their helper work the young dog.

At championship level - IPO 3 - I assume you mean, this should not be necessary.

At our Swiss Championship Trials IPO3, Tom Andrykowski from Mondionring was one of the helpers. One or two older IPO participants beefed about it but I heard he did his helper work real good.

At the BSP Germany, I don't know how many participants profited from having one of their helpers in their own clubs but, let's face it, to get to Championships, the dog has to prove itself - no freaking out at a strange helper[-o<


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Wanted to edit but was too late:

At International Trials, the dogs have to qualify to be the best in their own country and the chance of many of them facing their own club helper is rare.

The helpers at national and international championships are chosen out of the best helpers in each country where the championships are held. 

The point that you mention, Lisa, is probably at local trials and this is often so, that to get good results, some handlers only trial at their own clubs - a delusion but these are not "championships" - unless within a breed club.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Lisa,
> 
> I'm not quite sure what you mean by our initial post.
> 
> ...


Gillian, not sure you understand my post! I am not talking about "club trials" but National Championships. I know how the rules are for the helpers to be chosen and how people must qualify. It is not about if the helper does a "real good job" but more about "no freaking out at a strange helper" as the dog knows who the helper is very well! A better way to ask the IPO 1,2 question would be in Europe are they participating in National and International competitions? Thanks for your post-


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> No it's not an even playing field. But nothing else in the sport is on an even playing field either.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This was pretty much my response too but thought it would be interesting to hear what others think who know more about it than me, Thanks


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

I think (and someone correct me if I am wrong - can not check with husband, as he is traveling/training) that in Europe, there is a cut-off for competitors to work on the selected helpers for an event.

I think that it is a good idea to establish a cutoff for the US. The opposite happens - competitors working on selected helper prior to the event and people know about it due to training, postings, etc.

Then you also have the home field advantage when the hosting club advertises to come work on the competition field prior to event. Great, but what about others that can not travel the distance to get there, work and/or family schedules?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Gillian, not sure you understand my post! I am not talking about "club trials" but National Championships. I know how the rules are for the helpers to be chosen and how people must qualify. It is not about if the helper does a "real good job" but more about "no freaking out at a strange helper" as the dog knows who the helper is very well! A better way to ask the IPO 1,2 question would be in Europe are they participating in National and International competitions? Thanks for your post-


Obviously IPO 1 und 2 are competing nationally. Otherwise there would be no IPO3?

Internationally there is only IPO3. Nationally at our Championships there is IPO3.


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

Every single sport on the planet not unlike business has elements of luck on the day.
Its not always an advantage as some dogs can lose points to taking the p*ss by being over familiar with the helper, the other side of the coin is many good dogs come to life to perform really well with an unfamiliar Helper.
Bottom line is the word "HELPER" he is there to assist the judge by performing consistently will all dogs, and its only one phase.

Come the day who the hell knows how either the dog or ourselves are going to perform. LOL!

Mark


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

The UDC was supposed to have a no working on the trial helper for two weeks prior to the Championship rule, but it wasn't widely known or enforced. Kind of hard if you happened to work with the decoy picked to be the Nationals Decoy to not do any prep work for two weeks prior to the trial.

As far as IPO I and II's being part of any Championship. The AWDF Team Championship is determined by averaging the highest IPO III score and either an IPO I or II score.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I think the IPO 1s and 2s are there to earn money for the club. We are such a big country, and sometimes entries, even at a Nationals, are thin. 

As far as the home helper goes. By the time the dogs get to a 3, and are competing at this level, it shouldn't matter who the helper is. However, of course it is an advantage and I doubt it is enforced that no one gets to work on the helper for 2 weeks prior?

All my sense of any degree of fairness went out the window when the first National competition I went to was on the hosting clubs home field. And of course the tracking fields. So I don't even blink any more at things like that, it is just part of the proofing. However, we might want to notice the dogs that 1) have to fly to a major event, and 2) have to track and compete out of their climate. Not to take away from any dogs that do well, but the ones that have to travel a great distance normally have a greater load of stress on them on trial day.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> As far as the home helper goes. By the time the dogs get to a 3, and are competing at this level, it shouldn't matter who the helper is. However, of course it is an advantage and I doubt it is enforced that no one gets to work on the helper for 2 weeks prior?


This rule is definitely enforced for the AWMA National. 



> All my sense of any degree of fairness went out the window when the first National competition I went to was on the hosting clubs home field. And of course the tracking fields. So I don't even blink any more at things like that, it is just part of the proofing. However, we might want to notice the dogs that 1) have to fly to a major event, and 2) have to track and compete out of their climate. Not to take away from any dogs that do well, but the ones that have to travel a great distance normally have a greater load of stress on them on trial day.


I agree with that completely. This is one of those things that people that don't compete outside of their region don't take into account. The travel really takes a lot out of the dog. Most dogs are simply not the same after a flight, a walk though the airport, a shuttle ride to the rental car place, walk through the hotel and into the elevator, and on and on. 

Then you go to tracking and run into stuff that you never knew existed, much less trained on. In the northwest you might track on mud, moss and lichen. Go to Colorado and you might be on dead/dormant grass with the wind blowing you off of your feet. Florida you have tropical grass that with fire ants and 100% humidity. This country is huge and we have every type of climate and a national level dog is expected to track it all.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

But it is amazing that typically an outside dog (to the home field) wins championships. Lots of opinions but no real data! figures.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> This rule is definitely enforced for the AWMA National. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> How do you do that ,other then trusting the honesty and good sportsmanship of the Decoy and Competitor? There is no way to police what dogs a decoy works for two weeks before a trial.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> But it is amazing that typically an outside dog (to the home field) wins championships. Lots of opinions but no real data! figures.


Of course that's true when only one or two percent of the field comes from the host club.



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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

So in terms of fairness, your championship in question just changed the tracking from field grass to dirt. I think less than a week before the event? If I was a competitor I would be pissed. Again, a National level dog should be able to track it all, but this change gives an unfair advantage to those who have dirt in their climates. When I know I am going to have a trial track in dirt, I track in gravel, construction sites, etc...something I could not change up in my training less than a week before the trial. However, the same thing happened at another National trial, so again, guess it is something you proof for......


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

4. ADDITIONAL ADOPTED GUIDELINES
Section C
Subsection 4
The type of tracking fields (i.e., grass, plowed dirt, hayfields, etc.) to be used must be
advertised far enough ahead of time for participants to prepare and must not be changed

From the rulebook. However, I guess we can argue over the definition of "far ahead enough"?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Shade Whitesel said:


> So in terms of fairness, your championship in question just changed the tracking from field grass to dirt. I think less than a week before the event? If I was a competitor I would be pissed. Again, a National level dog should be able to track it all, but this change gives an unfair advantage to those who have dirt in their climates. When I know I am going to have a trial track in dirt, I track in gravel, construction sites, etc...something I could not change up in my training less than a week before the trial. However, the same thing happened at another National trial, so again, guess it is something you proof for......



HI Shade

Who are you addressing here? CS is involved with the AWMA Championship and I think the DVG is the one that just changed tracking?


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I think Lisa, the original poster, was posting about the DVG championship originally? Could be wrong...


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Shade Whitesel said:


> So in terms of fairness, your championship in question just changed the tracking from field grass to dirt. I think less than a week before the event? If I was a competitor I would be pissed. Again, a National level dog should be able to track it all, but this change gives an unfair advantage to those who have dirt in their climates. When I know I am going to have a trial track in dirt, I track in gravel, construction sites, etc...something I could not change up in my training less than a week before the trial. However, the same thing happened at another National trial, so again, guess it is something you proof for......


DVG just changed this past weekend from grass to plowed dirt. Had I been entered I would be both pissed and screwed. I have never had my dog track in dirt simply because I do not have access to anything other than a possible construction site on the rare occasion I can get permission. I've tracked on just about every other natural terrain but dirt is something missing from my tracking repertoire. While I actually don't know how much problem my dog would or would not have on dirt rolling the dice and hoping for the best is not something I want to rely on when it comes to laying out the expense money for the trial and travel.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Shade Whitesel said:


> I think Lisa, the original poster, was posting about the DVG championship originally? Could be wrong...


Hi Shade, yes you are wrong as I did not mention any championship but my question was universal! but since you bring up the DVG Championship I agree about the tracking situation being quite unfair!! I only know second hand info but I will say that the Eugene club hosting the event has gone above and beyond to put on a first class trial. I have tracked many times on the grounds they had reserved for the trial and it is super! if someone has a hard time there then they have a dog that can't track! but your club trial coming up is having a Championship soon and it would be more a long what I was posting about!


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Their are somethings that are just out of your control as the host club. Tracking situations happen. Several years ago our club hosted our regional Ch. Had 34 dogs entered. We provided 60 acres of practice tracking, didn't disclose the location of the fields for the Regional, in fear they would get poached by competitors and club members...guess what happen a possible competitor and some non competitors tracked our field right in front of the land owner who was pissed off. Pulled our fields a week before the Regional event. Had to kiss his ass and had to up the amount of $$ we gave him just to keep the tracking fields...


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Their are somethings that are just out of your control as the host club. Tracking situations happen. Several years ago our club hosted our regional Ch. Had 34 dogs entered. We provided 60 acres of practice tracking, didn't disclose the location of the fields for the Regional, in fear they would get poached by competitors and club members...guess what happen a possible competitor and some non competitors tracked our field right in front of the land owner who was pissed off. Pulled our fields a week before the Regional event. Had to kiss his ass and had to up the amount of $$ we gave him just to keep the tracking fields...


That's what I figured. Better to change locations than cancel the entire event for unfair conditions?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I have no idea why the change. I know the website had stated before that the tracking fields were under surveillance and anyone caught tracking would be DQ'd. The updated photos of the original grass fields were posted just a couple of weeks ago. 

While an explanation might have been sent to the competitors privately the website merely states new tracking would be dirt.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Reik got his FH on the tracking field they had originally secured. And it has rained recently so I assume it won't be so hard as people thought? What's up with not having hard tracking at a National event? I assume a Sch 3 dog going to Nationals can track?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Reik got his FH on the tracking field they had originally secured. And it has rained recently so I assume it won't be so hard as people thought? What's up with not having hard tracking at a National event? I assume a Sch 3 dog going to Nationals can track?


I'm sayin'!


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Nothing wrong with hard tracking...what I have a problem with is changing the type of terrain last minute. May not affect anyone then again it may. 

It's not a question of whether they can track or not. People have been practicing in grass preparing for this event then at the eleventh hour it changes from grass to dirt.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Nothing wrong with hard tracking...what I have a problem with is changing the type of terrain last minute. May not affect anyone then again it may.
> 
> It's not a question of whether they can track or not. People have been practicing in grass preparing for this event then at the eleventh hour it changes from grass to dirt.


Come on Keith, do you think they changed the tracking just to piss everyone off? It obvious that the other tracking is no longer available. It's rough to secure tracking and sometime stuff happens. I'm sure the host club is trying thier best.

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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

OMG, the crybabibess content just went thru da roof  I have new respect for trial officials, they don't get paid to deal with this.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

For a national I'd probably try and prepare on everything. A club trial I'd be more apt to track more on one terrain than the other because my dog has pretty much tracked most of the types of terrain locally. A national that wouldn't be the case, so I'd probably practice everything, or at least be a little more evened out in the training.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Nothing wrong with hard tracking...what I have a problem with is changing the type of terrain last minute. May not affect anyone then again it may.
> 
> It's not a question of whether they can track or not. People have been practicing in grass preparing for this event then at the eleventh hour it changes from grass to dirt.



One of the competitors just qualified at our trial 10 days ago and we tracked on a sod farm. Big change to be tracking on plowed dirt now :-(


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Come on Keith, do you think they changed the tracking just to piss everyone off? It obvious that the other tracking is no longer available. It's rough to secure tracking and sometime stuff happens. I'm sure the host club is trying thier best.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Why do you think it is obvious that the original tracking is not a available? I do not believe that is the only reason it could change. I also think that the host club is trying their best but pressure from competitors that feel the grass tracking is too difficult could also be the reason


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Why do you think it is obvious that the original tracking is not a available? I do not believe that is the only reason it could change. I also think that the host club is trying their best but pressure from competitors that feel the grass tracking is too difficult could also be the reason


+1

I don't know if this is a possible reason for the switch, but I do know there are some competitors who need soft rich plowed dirt to rack up those V tracking scores. Personally I'd rather prepare a dog for grass/sod and switch to plowed dirt then the other way around.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

The original tracking fields are still available, it has nothing to do with them not being available. And this is not the host club's fault, they are doing an awesome job. 
While dogs should be able to switch from grass to dirt, my complaint has to do that as a competitor, you prepare for one type of tracking. To switch from long grass to short grass is one thing, but switching from grass to dirt is making it extremely unfair for certain competitors.


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

Shade Whitesel said:


> The original tracking fields are still available, it has nothing to do with them not being available. And this is not the host club's fault, they are doing an awesome job.
> While dogs should be able to switch from grass to dirt, my complaint has to do that as a competitor, you prepare for one type of tracking. To switch from long grass to short grass is one thing, but switching from grass to dirt is making it extremely unfair for certain competitors.


If the host club did not make the change, who did?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Nothing wrong with hard tracking...what I have a problem with is changing the type of terrain last minute. May not affect anyone then again it may.
> 
> It's not a question of whether they can track or not. People have been practicing in grass preparing for this event then at the eleventh hour it changes from grass to dirt.


fine. easy answer. just dont tell people what tracking will be on.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> The original tracking fields are still available, it has nothing to do with them not being available. And this is not the host club's fault, they are doing an awesome job.
> While dogs should be able to switch from grass to dirt, my complaint has to do that as a competitor, you prepare for one type of tracking. To switch from long grass to short grass is one thing, but switching from grass to dirt is making it extremely unfair for certain competitors.


simple answer just dont tell people what tracking will be on. right, the dog should be able to switch.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Using that line of thinking James perhaps the only info that should be given is the city and host club. No blind search direction, jump types, helper info or judge info...etc. etc.....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

would be interesting to hear the reason for it. especially if it was not the hosting clubvs call, or that the fields became unavailable..

or is that dirt field the same field???, that used to be the grassy field? 

that is one reason I can think of..


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> would be interesting to hear the reason for it. especially if it was not the hosting clubvs call, or that the fields became unavailable..
> 
> or is that dirt field the same field???, that used to be the grassy field?
> 
> that is one reason I can think of..


That happened to me. The dirt field grew some grass. It was a mix of dirt and grass, and my dog does not do well on grass. We ended up with 90 points.

Shit happens, I guess. I nearly had a heart attack, but I train on both so it ended better than I anticipated.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Using that line of thinking James perhaps the only info that should be given is the city and host club. No blind search direction, jump types, helper info or judge info...etc. etc.....


some would say, not a bad idea at all.:smile:

The blind search direction and jump types are all within the control of the club, there would be no reason for last minute changes. If a judge or helper becomes ill or injured, no one would be pissed or question it.

Tracking fields and their conditions are the hardest thing to control/come by, unfortunately. I forget exactly what happened but the SW Regionals were hosted by Nathaniel Roque's club a couple years ago, and at the last minute the fields had to be changed, something about the farmer inextricably started planting or re-plowing the fields if I recall correctly? Anyway it was very difficult to come up with fields at the last minute, and unfortunately this resulted in not all tracks being equal, a few people drew really shitty, but it was not the fault of the hosting club, it was circumstances beyond their control.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> some would say, not a bad idea at all.:smile:




I'm cool with that. This BS were every aspect of the trial is layed out has only become the norm since the internet. If you need to know what direction the search starts or how the jumps are set up, maybe you shouldn't be at a championship trial.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I think after over 15+ years of everything listed going back to the dark ages isn't going to happen....at least not without a lot of kicking and screaming. Shit let's stop field and tracking practice while we're at it...save money for the host club.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> That happened to me. The dirt field grew some grass. It was a mix of dirt and grass, and my dog does not do well on grass. We ended up with 90 points.
> 
> Shit happens, I guess. I nearly had a heart attack, but I train on both so it ended better than I anticipated.


There is a difference between spending thousands of dollars to fly somewhere for a ch event and driving an hour for a TR1 at a local trial

It gets a little tougher to shrug it off. 

Laura


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I think after over 15+ years of everything listed going back to the dark ages isn't going to happen....at least not without a lot of kicking and screaming. Shit let's stop field and tracking practice while we're at it...save money for the host club.


I think things like this and blind direction etc are announced to at least give some semblance of leveling the playing field for the non-locals not because anybody thinks a dog at that level can't perform in some way 

Laura


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Shit let's stop field and tracking practice while we're at it...save money for the host club.




I'm down with that too. Do you have any other ideas?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Laura do you remember what the deal was with the tracking fields at regionals a while back?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I think things like this and blind direction etc are announced to at least give some semblance of leveling the playing field for the non-locals not because anybody thinks a dog at that level can't perform in some way
> 
> Laura



It sounds like you are contradicting yourself. If the dogs can all do it how are some dogs put at a disadvantage that needs to be leveled?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In many places good tracking fields for trials with multiple schH3 are becoming impossible to find. We're getting closer and closer to an article search on a stadium field. It kind of sucks, but it would be more fair to everyone.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> There is a difference between spending thousands of dollars to fly somewhere for a ch event and driving an hour for a TR1 at a local trial
> 
> It gets a little tougher to shrug it off.
> 
> Laura


Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were talking about strictly national events. You didn't have a problem with Susan's bringing up a regional event. That's different, right?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> In many places good tracking fields for trials with multiple schH3 are becoming impossible to find. We're getting closer and closer to an article search on a stadium field. It kind of sucks, but it would be more fair to everyone.


When the STP (random article search) was introduced ~10 years ago, there was talk of it being an option/alternative for tracking.
Hasn't happened yet but who knows what the future holds?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> There is a difference between spending thousands of dollars to fly somewhere for a ch event and driving an hour for a TR1 at a local trial
> 
> It gets a little tougher to shrug it off.
> 
> Laura


Laura a similar thing has happened to me at a national sch3. Yes I wish it hadn't happened but it did and I accept that it's just a part of the sport. I can also say that I have gotten lucky tracks that were slanted in my favor.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

My region stretches from VA to Florida....that's a long haul also and expenses could easily be just as much as going to a National event.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> It sounds like you are contradicting yourself. If the dogs can all do it how are some dogs put at a disadvantage that needs to be leveled?


Even if I had a dog that I knew could do it all without practice I'd be more willing to spend my money going to an event where I knew as much as the cliques or the insiders knew. 
I may not get a chance to get on a soybean field like the locals do but at least I know that going in. 
It would be difficult for me to support a host club that said we are hosting this trial and only the cool kids know stuff ahead of time. Even if I had a dog that was a machine. 

Laura


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Laura a similar thing has happened to me at a national sch3. Yes I wish it hadn't happened but it did and I accept that it's just a part of the sport. I can also say that I have gotten lucky tracks that were slanted in my favor.


Me too. For sure. It still doesn't sit well with me. 

Laura


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> My region stretches from VA to Florida....that's a long haul also and expenses could easily be just as much as going to a National event.


At what point does it become easier to shrug off? I almost pulled my apparently very cheap local trial, but I ended up going out there and doing it anyway. It was a 2 hour drive. My bitch was in heat. Tracking conditions changed a week before the trial. 

I almost pulled, but I didn't complain to anybody. I'm still not complaining. I was insecure and terrified, but I got 90 pts. That's pretty good for my dog, especially on a bad day.

My point was that it happens. You prepare for it or you don't. I did. The people on here complaining about the most recent case aren't even competing in that trial.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> When the STP (random article search) was introduced ~10 years ago, there was talk of it being an option/alternative for tracking.
> Hasn't happened yet but who knows what the future holds?


That is one of the reasons I started doing StPs...I was the first Rottie in the US to do a StP and still the only Rottie with a StP3 in the US I believe.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I prepare for a history test I don't worry about brushing up on algebra.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Katie Finlay said:


> At what point does it become easier to shrug off? I almost pulled my apparently very cheap local trial, but I ended up going out there and doing it anyway. It was a 2 hour drive. My bitch was in heat. Tracking conditions changed a week before the trial.
> 
> I almost pulled, but I didn't complain to anybody. I'm still not complaining. I was insecure and terrified, but I got 90 pts. That's pretty good for my dog, especially on a bad day.
> 
> My point was that it happens. You prepare for it or you don't. I did. The people on here complaining about the most recent case aren't even competing in that trial.



And the person who hasn't done shit yet is defending the change the most.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Using that line of thinking James perhaps the only info that should be given is the city and host club. No blind search direction, jump types, helper info or judge info...etc. etc.....


Why not? 

Then we can see who brings a dog that has been actually trained. Not one who has been taught to perform on certain patterns, exposed only to certain Envoirments. 

If you need to know where the jumps are and which way the blinds go.... I am pretty sure your not going to be our next national champion.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Shade Whitesel said:


> So in terms of fairness, your championship in question just changed the tracking from field grass to dirt. I think less than a week before the event? If I was a competitor I would be pissed. Again, a National level dog should be able to track it all, but this change gives an unfair advantage to those who have dirt in their climates. When I know I am going to have a trial track in dirt, I track in gravel, construction sites, etc...something I could not change up in my training less than a week before the trial. However, the same thing happened at another National trial, so again, guess it is something you proof for......


So this thread was about if it is fair for all competitors if some have their "training helper" do the Championship trial helper work! not one club, not a tracking issue at a upcoming event! Shade since you started this maybe you can start a thread on that! So back to my first post- I did hear back from my euro friends who yes are some top competitors in Europe and the info I got was none had ever heard or know of this to happen! it seems that it is a US thing! So maybe my next question should be- is the critieria to low in the US for Championship trials? and would that make it more fair?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were talking about strictly national events. You didn't have a problem with Susan's bringing up a regional event. That's different, right?


To defend myself, I was talking about "championship" events, and while a regional championship is not the same as a national championship, it's still considered a championship event. 

I was bringing up the difficulty of finding enough tracking fields for all entrants in a trial in general, which is hard enough for a local club trial, let alone for a club hosting a championship event, regional or beyond.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> To defend myself, I was talking about "championship" events, and while a regional championship is not the same as a national championship, it's still considered a championship event.
> 
> I was bringing up the difficulty of finding enough tracking fields for all entrants in a trial in general, which is hard enough for a local club trial, let alone for a club hosting a championship event, regional or beyond.


I know Susan. I was just making a point that Laura was arguing with me for the sake of arguing when she could have just as easily argued with you.

I'm still getting accused of not having done shit even though I have an actual IPO title in the subject we're talking about - tracking.

Regardless, this has happened to me, who hasn't done shit, and everyone else who has posted in this thread at either club trials, regional trials or national trials. And yet Keith still thinks it's shocking and unfair. If he hasn't figured out this is part of the game by now, I think there's something to be said.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Katie Finlay said:


> I know Susan. I was just making a point that Laura was arguing with me for the sake of arguing when she could have just as easily argued with you.
> 
> I'm still getting accused of not having done shit even though I have an actual IPO title in the subject we're talking about - tracking.
> 
> Regardless, this has happened to me, who hasn't done shit, and everyone else who has posted in this thread at either club trials, regional trials or national trials. And yet Keith still thinks it's shocking and unfair. If he hasn't figured out this is part of the game by now, I think there's something to be said.


WOW Katie, I think I have more than likely been doing this sport longer than you and even though I have a very clear idea of how most things go in the game there are still always things worth being said! thats also how changes happen!


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Even if I had a dog that I knew could do it all without practice I'd be more willing to spend my money going to an event where I knew as much as the cliques or the insiders knew.
> I may not get a chance to get on a soybean field like the locals do but at least I know that going in.
> It would be difficult for me to support a host club that said we are hosting this trial and only the cool kids know stuff ahead of time. Even if I had a dog that was a machine.
> 
> Laura


Laura, Now this is something to be said! what I have known for a long time is it's the "cliques or the insiders" that do have an advantage and of course they know it but more often than not their dogs need it the most and never are the "dog that was a machine" but then that is one area of the "luck" factor!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> So this thread was about if it is fair for all competitors if some have their "training helper" do the Championship trial helper work! not one club, not a tracking issue at a upcoming event! Shade since you started this maybe you can start a thread on that! So back to my first post- I did hear back from my euro friends who yes are some top competitors in Europe and the info I got was none had ever heard or know of this to happen! it seems that it is a US thing! So maybe my next question should be- is the critieria to low in the US for Championship trials? and would that make it more fair?


Lisa, First in the Defense of Shade. Although Shades scenerio was not the same, it was not the opposite. She had a fair comment that was still in spirit and principal the same thing you were talking about. It's a discussion forum not a meeting of congress. 

As for your question is it fair for all? Well it seems on the surface the answer is no. But that's the Surface. First if it were my dogs, I would be at a disadvantage to have Helpers I train on regularly work my dogs in a trial as they show better on a new helper. Second, Is it "fair" for "all" that a club loses their training helper because he is working the dog in trial? no it's not. They just lost their most important training resource. Is it fair for you I think is the real argument here. I don't think it will ever be "fair" for "all". That is something I have come to accept. It's also something I have come to train for or at least stopped counting on others to make the conditions that will preclude my success. 

Next this is a Club buisness item. Nothing can be solved here on the board. So what's the motive to bring it here? fear of not having solved at the club level? Create conflict? expose the truth? and I do not buy it's just to have a friendly discussion on such a topic. You want either a heart massage, ramifications to the parties involved or some resolution....But we know only 2 of the three are possible here. 

So as a competitor to another. I believe what you want is to win. As we all do. And you feel that a trial helper working a dog it regularly trains is somehow getting in your way of that. And I do not discredit that. I just think this is not the medium your going to get resolution for the problem.....and I think you know that. You're here to step on toes or get some sympathy. Neither of which are going to get you on the podium. So if you want some resolution, take it up with the club involved. If you want to win. Stop worrying about this kind of stuff and just know it's going to happen. And I assure you A great dog, with great training and none of this petty ass bullshit will be a problem for you even if it does happen. I don't think World Champions go around worrying about who's working who's dog when. They pull an amazing animal out of the back of their truck and go put on a show. They don't sit and bitch about how conditions are not perfect to facilitate their success. We all got shit in the way that's out of our control. Welcome to IPO.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Katie Finlay said:


> I know Susan. I was just making a point that Laura was arguing with me for the sake of arguing when she could have just as easily argued with you.
> 
> I'm still getting accused of not having done shit even though I have an actual IPO title in the subject we're talking about - tracking.
> 
> Regardless, this has happened to me, who hasn't done shit, and everyone else who has posted in this thread at either club trials, regional trials or national trials. And yet Keith still thinks it's shocking and unfair. If he hasn't figured out this is part of the game by now, I think there's something to be said.


You stomped maybe a 300 pace track at a club trial...not really a landmark accomplishment in the grand scheme of things. 

I don't find it shocking but I do think it's bullshit that conditions are changed last minute. I understand things happen and fields are lost. What I don't buy is how do you come up with a complete change of tracking terrain last minute? Why not secure and advertise both and if something happens you're covered.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> You stomped maybe a 300 pace track at a club trial...not really a landmark accomplishment in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> I don't find it shocking but I do think it's bullshit that conditions are changed last minute. I understand things happen and fields are lost. What I don't buy is how do you come up with a complete change of tracking terrain last minute? Why not secure and advertise both and if something happens you're covered.



Keith, I am sure honest shit happens. I also am sure people cheat like they are coaching the Patriots. Shit I helped host a National Championship where the Governing club came in and changed tracking and blamed the host club for it so their guy could win They also rigged the draw right in front of God and everybody. And they still did not win the trial. The person who won, simply brought a trained dog. 


I think that has a valuable lesson in how useful worrying about if things are fair.....and just how far a great dog with great training can take you.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> You stomped maybe a 300 pace track at a club trial...not really a landmark accomplishment in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> I don't find it shocking but I do think it's bullshit that conditions are changed last minute. I understand things happen and fields are lost. What I don't buy is how do you come up with a complete change of tracking terrain last minute? Why not secure and advertise both and if something happens you're covered.


Where exactly have I said it was a landmark accomplishment? You said I haven't done shit, well, that's some shit to me. I'm sorry my shit doesn't stink as much as yours. Also, at what point does an accomplishment become important? I did a 90pt tracking with my very first IPO dog while she was in heat. I have something to be proud of, I'm not asking anyone to give me a trophy for it. I just find it funny that no one EVER argues with what I say, just that I said it. The only come back anyone ever has for me is that I haven't done anything. It's actually pretty funny. And yes, it was 300 paces. I follow the rules.

Life is unfair. All spots are unfair on some level or another. That's just the way things are. Shit happens. Plenty of people have given reasons why they might be changed last minute. Sometimes they're dumb reasons. I'm not saying that it's awesome and we should do it all the time. But if you can't believe things come up last minute, I find that a little strange.


I don't even think I'm defending anything. There's nothing to defend. This stuff happens. It's a grey area. Just because I have a different opinion than you doesn't mean I'm not entitled to it or you have to get all upset over it. Relax.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

James Downey said:


> Lisa, First in the Defense of Shade. Although Shades scenerio was not the same, it was not the opposite. She had a fair comment that was still in spirit and principal the same thing you were talking about. It's a discussion forum not a meeting of congress.
> 
> As for your question is it fair for all? Well it seems on the surface the answer is no. But that's the Surface. First if it were my dogs, I would be at a disadvantage to have Helpers I train on regularly work my dogs in a trial as they show better on a new helper. Second, Is it "fair" for "all" that a club loses their training helper because he is working the dog in trial? no it's not. They just lost their most important training resource. Is it fair for you I think is the real argument here. I don't think it will ever be "fair" for "all". That is something I have come to accept. It's also something I have come to train for or at least stopped counting on others to make the conditions that will preclude my success.
> 
> ...


My Thread was a IPO Championship question no less,no more! where you put your "spin" on me or anything I have said is a bit out of line! if anyone started something where it went in another direction it was Shade! no need to defend her I have no problem with her but the problems with the DVG Championship where not about my thread! I am not competing there! ABTW My dog shows better on a helper he does not know also! so it's not personal for me! just something I had never heard of happening before in a Championship! sorry if you feel like my question was to stir something up! but thats your problem! I might add that in regards to your "club will loose it's helper for training" I think more people are lucky to have 2 helpers and in the end they would be happy for the helper that was picked to be one in a Championship


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

James I have no doubts honest shit happens. I also have no doubts that things are changed that benefits individuals, or at least tries to benefit them. I've seen it on more than one occasion. Doesn't mean I need to drop trousers and take one for the team.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I don't find it shocking but I do think it's bullshit that conditions are changed last minute. I understand things happen and fields are lost. What I don't buy is how do you come up with a complete change of tracking terrain last minute? Why not secure and advertise both and if something happens you're covered.


From reading between the lines. It doesn't look like the fields were lost? I'd guess one or more of the competitors didn't like the conditions of the trial tracking fields and requested a change. Yes at this level the dog should be able to track on anything but if the majority of the competitors agreed then I have no trouble with tracking on an easier plowed dirt field then on a scruff grass open field. Again, as long as it was a majority
decision and not to give someone an advantage? What's the big deal?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> My Thread was a IPO Championship question no less,no more! where you put your "spin" on me or anything I have said is a bit out of line! if anyone started something where it went in another direction it was Shade! no need to defend her I have no problem with her but the problems with the DVG Championship where not about my thread! I am not competing there! ABTW My dog shows better on a helper he does not know also! so it's not personal for me! just something I had never heard of happening before in a Championship! sorry if you feel like my question was to stir something up! but thats your problem! I might add that in regards to your "club will loose it's helper for training" I think more people are lucky to have 2 helpers and in the end they would be happy for the helper that was picked to be one in a Championship


Lisa, Oh? I did read into your emotion a little. I thought first this is a really votile subject to just bring up casually. So that made me think this is a raw nerve for you. Second, how riled up you got at shade, made me think you had some personal experience that you were upset about and wanted the thread to stay on track because you need it to go a certain way. Which I could understand. What makes it hard to understand is this a casual subject for you. I just don't get the emotion. 

Lisa, Just wondering where you get your most clubs have 2 helpers theory from? Not trying to be shitty here. But I have lived in 3 Different UScA regions in the last 9 years. I have seen a lot of clubs. And I don't think that's really true. I think most clubs have one helper who works all the dogs, then they have one guy who works the helpers dog. 

But lets just say that argument is true and there are helpers to go around. This really is not that big of a deal. Trust me Lisa this is not what's costing people the Championship.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> James I have no doubts honest shit happens. I also have no doubts that things are changed that benefits individuals, or at least tries to benefit them. I've seen it on more than one occasion. Doesn't mean I need to drop trousers and take one for the team.


I have seen shady shit in every trial I have ever been too.maybe minor things but even at the club level (becareful here Keith were not talking about a Championship....Lisa might lose her shit) What I am saying is that what you think is screwing you, is really not what's screwing you.

after some thought. I edited this post....because I see what your saying. That even though you don't think their cheating can make you not win, you still find it disrespectful. I get that.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Why not secure and advertise both and if something happens you're covered.


Why don't you just assuume that's the case from now on then you cover yourself? 



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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

If that were the case I would never enter a trial. I simply do not have access to dirt tracking. I would bet good money I'm not the only one in that boat. 

I've had to not enter 3 bigger events because of dirt tracking but it was advertised as such. As I stated earlier, I'm not going to lay out the expenses and roll the dice...I'll save that for the casino.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

James Downey said:


> Lisa, Oh? I did read into your emotion a little. I thought first this is a really votile subject to just bring up casually. So that made me think this is a raw nerve for you. Second, how riled up you got at shade, made me think you had some personal experience that you were upset about and wanted the thread to stay on track because you need it to go a certain way. Which I could understand. What makes it hard to understand is this a casual subject for you. I just don't get the emotion.
> 
> Lisa, Just wondering where you get your most clubs have 2 helpers theory from? Not trying to be shitty here. But I have lived in 3 Different UScA regions in the last 9 years. I have seen a lot of clubs. And I don't think that's really true. I think most clubs have one helper who works all the dogs, then they have one guy who works the helpers dog.
> 
> But lets just say that argument is true and there are helpers to go around. This really is not that big of a deal. Trust me Lisa this is not what's costing people the Championship.


James, I did not get "riled' up at Shade she is the one who brought the other subjects into the thread so why not start a new one about tracking that was where it was going! not sure about "this is a votile subject' I thought it was pretty interesting. My comment about clubs having 2 helpers should have read "some clubs" not most and sorry to disappoint you about the emotion part as I have none here. I did state in the beginning my "Championship" experience consists of watching videos and some friends and I where just talking about it! I'll go back to lurking now- Thanks for your posts.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

James Downey said:


> I have seen shady shit in every trial I have ever been too.maybe minor things but even at the club level (becareful here Keith were not talking about a Championship....Lisa might lose her shit) What I am saying is that what you think is screwing you, is really not what's screwing you.
> 
> after some thought. I edited this post....because I see what your saying. That even though you don't think their cheating can make you not win, you still find it disrespectful. I get that.


I have seen it too! and agree it is all just part of it, but I do think a Championship is a big deal and should be on a different level all the way around after all people, breeders, trainers and other do make money from having a title from such a trial but no I will not loose my shit!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> no I will not loose my shit!





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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's called home field advantage
> It your club hosts a big event and your club dog qualifies?
> Then you're the lucky one.


Just making good results on home field trials is an illusion. You might get to the Breed Clubs' Championships, but the let down is when the unknown helper goes into action.

I've heard of the helper doing a little "scratching" in the sleeve during the "guarding exercise".

However, it's a sport and one should go into it as a "sport". 

These questions about "fair deal" or not are not usually from handlers who have trained their dogs to face various situations. Their minds are not petty.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> I have seen it too! and agree it is all just part of it, but I do think a Championship is a big deal and should be on a different level all the way around after all people, breeders, trainers and other do make money from having a title from such a trial but no I will not loose my shit!


I get it you want fairness. So does everyone else. I think a lot of people who have been IPO for sometime know that the hard truth is complete fairness is unattainable. But we should still try, I think we can agree on that. I am arguing that yes it might not be fair to allow a handler/ dog team to trial on the same helper they train on. Your Correct, that could give some advantage to that team. But I do think it's that big of a deal to strip them of their training resources. Because that puts them at a disadvantage. They now have to deal with an obstacle that no other team has to. So if fair is the goal, That's not a good answer. And just because it's "More" fair to More people does not make it right either. I also don't think offering the helper to work the entire roster of competitors is a good solution. First, that could be almost 100 dogs for a large trial. Second, Like others state traveling can be a problem....Next it puts the helper in a shitty spot...because inevitably someone will show up late, and the helper will have to leave and you know the story. I think that at some point you have to really look at how big is the advantage that individual team is getting, and how big is the disadvantage they will face if they are not allowed to train on their own helper. I think it at best a weak dog may receive some grace by trialing on their training helper. That's the advantage they could get. The disadvantage a competitor faces if he loses his helper 2 weeks prior to a Championship....If that's his or her only access to help. You basically just removed any chance for them to be competitive at all. So when I look at the advantages and disadvantages, The advantage they might get is negligible. I have more faith in the quality of training and the quality of dogs being shown at a championship level (and the quality of the judging) That it's going to take a little more than that. And it's a sure thing if you take someones training resources away, you have just given them a mighty big obstacle to overcome. Now having said that. I think a good medium could be. That no one is allowed to work on trial helpers prior to the trial with the exception of handlers and dogs entered in the championship who share the same club as the helper. Just a spit ball idea. I just do not like the sacrificial lamb approach to try make things fair. I would like to think that IPO is more inclusive and has more Espirit de corps than that. I just think it's kind of shitty sportsmanship for a sport, club, or individual being completely okay with basically cutting off anothers competitors most precious resource because he was lucky enough to have his helper get selected. It's not like the people are conspiring to cheat. It's the reward for having a good helper in your club? Sounds like Bullshit to me. 

And as for it being a big deal... I am not convinced it's a big deal. and Just because someone uses the titles and placements at IPO events to further their private buisness endeavors does not mean that IPO itself, or any of it's organizations have the responsability to cut another members resources so, K9 Enterprises LTD. makes the rent. What people do with their dogs in Business is just that....their business. I am pretty sure that just because people use IPO titles and Championships to make money is proof that it's a big deal.... A company once made Beanie Babies to make money. I know I receive a lot of backlash for my Global ideaology toward dog sport but for me the truth is....in my own little world. Malinois and IPO are extremely important. My wife was in the hospital 2 days after a C-section birth and I was putting a 2 on my dog. The reality though is that when I get out of myself and compare IPO to the rest of the world. IPO in the grand Scheme of the universe is a side show. I bet more people know about international talk like a pirate day than they do about IPO. Which was last thursday BTW. None of the great champions have ever sat down at a restaurant and overheard other tables saying, "you know who that is!? That's Joe IPO world champ". Never happened. IPO is such a big deal that we do not pay our athletes. Shoot most cannot even get endorsements. I am friends with a Lady who owns a very competitive Dock dog and she told me she has not bought food for the dog since it was 15 months old....because her dog is on a bag of dog food. In the grand scheme of the world. IPO is an Infinitesimal speck. In the world of competitive dog sports IPO dogs are not as big of a deal as Dock Diving dogs. Though we all feel we are vastly superior to dogs that jump in the water for work....and yet those dogs are getting more than a trophy when they win. So is IPO a big deal? only for people who are in IPO. So much of a big deal that we are apparently willing to single out any competitors who threaten us or our ability to select the right dog as the winner. But in the end, it's a game we play with dogs. That's how big of a deal it is.


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## Wallace payne (Dec 2, 2013)

I have won 3 National events and they were on someone else home field. I think we worry to much about "Level Playing Fields"


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

We hosted malinois nationals this year. My helper did the front half of the 3s, in which I was entered. Between hosting and not being able to work on my helper, I posted the worst OB and PR scores the dog has ever had. I should have pulled my dog at the last minute knowing I had had no practice. She was completely out of control from being so wound up from not being worked. At the end of the front half, the helper (my helper) ran off the field triggering my wild dog to chase him, thank God it happened with MY dog and no one else's as someone would have complained that he did it on purpose to skew the scores. I had trialed her twice before IPO III and gotten 95 and 96 in protection, nationals I got an 88 because I had no control.

People will always find something to complain about, if hosting and using your own helper gives you such an advantage......put in your bid.

I'll tell you it was a lesson learned for me, Ill never host and compete again.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

I can only comment about USCA events (because that's all I really know)...
Helpers that have worked all the National events for the last 5 years
Don Yelle
Scott Carlson
Marcus Hampton
John Bochenek
Ryan White
Sean Murphey


memebrs of any of their clubs that have won...ZERO

Yes it would be an advantage, but it just doesn't happen.


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