# vitamin C



## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Wondering if any one eles has had a problem with their dog itching from giving them vit-c supplement. I'm giving them 1tsp of ester-c powder. Should I lower the dose? Seems like the itching starts not long after I feed. I'm not sure what to do, I know the vit-c is important.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

JMO....I would not supplement Vit-C (unless the dog needed it or had hip issues) since supplementing C causes the dogs own natural C making ability to go all out of whack....

Dogs do not need a whole bunch of supplements.....my house is raw diet, salmon oil, vitamin E and joint supp for the older dogs. 

I sometimes supp calcium ONLY when I have a ton of ground meat to feed with no bone. 

Connie is WAY better at this than I, and all my diet/nutrition links (which I stole from her  are at home)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Dibble said:


> Wondering if any one eles has had a problem with their dog itching from giving them vit-c supplement. I'm giving them 1tsp of ester-c powder. Should I lower the dose? Seems like the itching starts not long after I feed. I'm not sure what to do, I know the vit-c is important.


Itching where? 

I have not read of an dog-itching side effect of C in any form, including ester, but I can check it out.


BTW, how much does the dog weigh? Is this a 100-pound dog? (I don't have it right here, but isn't the dosage usually 1/4 tsp. per 25 pounds?)

Also BTW, you know that dogs make their own C, right? You mention it being important, and yes, many folks do indeed give "extra" for physical stressors like illness, etc., or just because it's water-soluble and not a vitamin that accumulates in the body, and some researchers recommend it for certain health issues, but still -- just want you to realize that unlike humans, dogs do manufacture their own C. (Most animals do; primates do not.)

I do not supplement C to my dogs, since I don't want to unnecessarily interfere with the natural manufacturing process and since I do give produce as an appropriately small but varied diet item, but I would probably re-consider the vitamin C in conditions of certain ailments.


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> JMO....I would not supplement Vit-C (unless the dog needed it or had hip issues) since supplementing C causes the dogs own natural C making ability to go all out of whack....
> 
> Dogs do not need a whole bunch of supplements.....my house is raw diet, salmon oil, vitamin E and joint supp for the older dogs.
> 
> ...


 I wondered about that , cause I knew dogs made their own, someone told me that because they dont vaccenate( I know thats misspelled) that they give them extra vit-c, to keep their ammune system boosted.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Debbie Dibble said:


> I wondered about that , cause I knew dogs made their own, someone told me that because they dont vaccenate( I know thats misspelled) that they give them extra vit-c, to keep their ammune system boosted.


I have never heard that, and I don't vaccinate either....I did see that Connie replied above.....THANKS Connie...LOL


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I give vitamin C and have for years, never had a problem or heard of a problem with dogs itching because of it - is this just one dog? Or all of yours? Maybe if it's one dog it's an allergy that dog has to - vit C? or something else you are giving it at the same time as the vit c.

molly


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Dibble said:


> I wondered about that , cause I knew dogs made their own, someone told me that because they dont vaccenate( I know thats misspelled) that they give them extra vit-c, to keep their ammune system boosted.


Because they don't vaccinate?

They consider vaccination an immune booster? 

Or ... they want the immune system extra strong to make up for no vaccination?

I never heard this. I can't form a rationale in my head to connect not vaccinating with supplementing C.

If I though the dog needed extra C (more than what the dog produces) to enhance his immune response, I'd probably give it whether I vaccinated or not.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Molly Graf said:


> .... or something else you are giving it at the same time as the vit c.
> 
> molly


This would be much more likely-sounding to me. And even then, not if it's all of a group of dogs. Allergies are individual.


But again: itching where?


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Itching where?
> 
> I have not read of an dog-itching side effect of C in any form, including ester, but I can check it out.
> 
> ...


HE's probably about 90 pounds, He scratches mostly on the neck area, I see him also rub his face with his paw or rub his face like on a pillow.I just a soon not give him the vit-c, when I first started to raw feed, I was copying the diet off the other forum and it reads vit-c sup every day, so I thought it was a neccesity. Thanks for clearing that up, I'm gonna drop it all together if you think its ok?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Dibble said:


> HE's probably about 90 pounds, He scratches mostly on the neck area, I see him also rub his face with his paw or rub his face like on a pillow.I just a soon not give him the vit-c, when I first started to raw feed, I was copying the diet off the other forum and it reads vit-c sup every day, so I thought it was a neccesity. Thanks for clearing that up, I'm gonna drop it all together if you think its ok?


I would want the vet to do a scraping. This is kind of a lifting of skin cells and anything else wandering around there to look at under a 'scope. I'd want to eliminate a mite infestation diagnosis.

No itchy paws? No licking at the paws? No inflammation inside the ears? No backbone or base-of-tail scratching/biting?

Just itchy face and neck? Then I'd probably want a scraping first. 

JMO.


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## Debbie Dibble (Jan 12, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I would want the vet to do a scraping. This is kind of a lifting of skin cells and anything else wandering around there to look at under a 'scope. I'd want to eliminate a mite infestation diagnosis.
> 
> No itchy paws? No licking at the paws? No inflammation inside the ears? No backbone or base-of-tail scratching/biting?
> 
> ...


no inflammation in ears but yes there is some biting on the backbone, and what you was saying before I always took it as they were giving the vit-c to give the immune system a extra boost because they were not vaccinating, which gave them a better chance of not getting a virus. I always felt uneasy giving him extra but I thought it was neccessary, I think I will check back on that diet menu and see if I was reading it wrong. Thanks for your input though. P.s no itchy paws either, I will have his skin checked if the itching doesnt subside after I stop the C


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Dibble said:


> no inflammation in ears but yes there is some biting on the backbone, and what you was saying before I always took it as they were giving the vit-c to give the immune system a extra boost because they were not vaccinating, which gave them a better chance of not getting a virus. I always felt uneasy giving him extra but I thought it was neccessary, I think I will check back on that diet menu and see if I was reading it wrong.


You may not have read the diet thing wrong at all. Advice and use of C for dogs is all over the map, among plenty of authoritative people. 

Biting on the backbone sounds like could be fleas. (It doesn't take a bunch if a dog is hypersensitive.) Have you brushed or combed over a white sheet to check for flea dirt?


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## Carlos Machado (Dec 28, 2008)

Vitamin C seems to help most dogs with joint problems and seems to prevent hip dysplasia. The itching I've seen with food allergy's pawing the face and biting feet but haven't heard about it with vitamin C.
Dr. Wendell O. Belfield a San Jose, California veterinarian did a study in 1976 breeding many litters of German shepherds that were dysplasia free.
These are quotes from an article it explains the way vitamin C is used.
*Dysplasia's End*


By Larry Mueller
http://molosserdogs.com/content3317.html
"To sum up so far, our dog is a poor producer of vitamin C, there is no extra C in his usual food, and like us, he needs far more in proportion to size than we do to achieve normal growth. While our growth is stretched out over two decades, most of theirs takes place during the first year. The bigger the breed or strain, the more rapid the growth, and the greater the demand for ascorbic acid, the greater the incidence of hip dysplasia. Dr. Belfield suggests that we should also consider the stress assault on a domesticated pup. It's weaned, separated from its mother and littermates, involuntarily carried to a new and unfamiliar location, stuck with needles, mildly poisoned to eliminate worms, and possibly operated on to remove dewclaws or part of the tail. All of this happens while the animal is already stressed by teething and phenomenal growth. The growth factor induces a very high demand for ascorbic acid through additional stress and the massive need for collagen.

The wild canine pup, by contrast, stays with its mother, keeps its tail and dewclaws, suffers no early separation, is not hurt by hypodermic needles, and has not been bred overlarge by foolish humans. Diseases and worms are its stresses. But the wild pup does get extra vitamin C from the livers of animals the mother kills, some green vegetation, and sometimes from fruits and berries. The domestic pup gets none because we have decided that he doesn't need any."

"Dr Belfield thought that the solution was obvious. Prevent hip dysplasia by supplying enough vitamin C. He tried it with several litters of German Shepherd pups, a breed with serious CHD problems. The parents either had hip dysplasia themselves or they had already produced dysplastic pups.
The first bitch had very bad hips, and according to Seeing Eye dog standards, should have been neutered to prevent damaging pregnancy. Dr. Belfield gave her 2,000 milligrams (2 grams) of C daily as soon as she was pregnant. Eight pups were born, and they were given 50 to 100 Milligrams of liquid C from birth until weaned. From that point to four months, 550 milligrams of powdered C were added to their food. This was increased to 1,000 milligrams, then 2,000 until the pups were 18 to 24 months old. None of the pups were dysplastic."

And another article
*Vitamin C Cures Hip Dysplasia*


By Larry Mueller
http://molosserdogs.com/content3318.html
"The results were impressively in favor of Ester-C therapy. Seventy-eight percent of the dogs on 2,000mg of Ester-C experienced improved mobility within four or five days. The average improvement score was 1.52. About 60 percent of the improved dogs relapsed when Ester-C was discontinued, but the group that returned to Ester-C in the third phase then regained mobility. Handlers reported no negative side effects."

Some other sites
http://www.yourdoghealth.com/dog_ester-c.htm
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2&aid=712
http://www.organic-pet-digest.com/vitamin-c-for-dogs.html

In Australia they use it for snake bites
http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/vitc.htm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, HD would be one of the health issues that would prompt me to consider supplementing with C. 

I think the O.P. said there was no biting of the feet ... ? That would have made me think more of allergies. 

Concentration on the face area kind of suggests mites, and I'd want a scraping.

But I'd also be thinking about that backbone scratching, which is typical for fleas.

Itchiness in dogs ... frustrating! :-o

I'd much rather find out that I was dealing with mites and fleas than inhalant/environmental (or food) allergies. 

I had not heard of the snake bite thing! Very interesting!


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

sounds to me like the dog is allergic - duh I know - to something - but I doubt it's the vit c. Could even be one of the meats you are feeding - even raw-fed dogs can have food allergies - some dogs are allergic to chicken, others to beef... could be none of the above, could be environmental - some dogs are even allergic to grass, or nothing at all (it seems) causes it. Fleas for sure - even one can cause a dog allergic to flea bites huge problems. Hope you figure it out - I don't know much about allergies in dogs, but I think there are tests the vet can do to check for exactly what the dog is allergic to?


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I believe your friend may be referring to vitamin e. I have heard similar applications of the supplement with vitamin e. I would never supplement ester c on a regular basis, just me, but as others have mentioned dogs produce their own levels of c and you can throw it through loops where the dog has problems later. If the dog is ill or you supplement for arthritis or dysplasia than that would make sense because it is said that the benefits are greater when given with a glucosamine/chrondroitin mixture. Do you use the powder form? I would say even if your dog inhales some of the powder (since you said just after eating) that could cause some irritation making the dog paw at his face but the neck and back thing I wouldn't know. If you supplement other things try to seperate them so that you can pinpoint which one he is having a problem with for sure. I would double check for fleas and agree with Connie if it continues the scraping is next.

I believe with a fully balanced diet dogs should be supplemented on a very limited basis because they are already recieving all the nutrition they need. 

I feed my dogs dry food most of the time, I offer raw about 6-8 times a month. I offer lots of veggies, fruits, yogurt, etc. to help add where the dry may lack nutritionally. I do supplement but usually only through their peak training and trialing events. During that time frame I give kelp, ester c, glucosamine/chrondroitin, calcium, vitamin d and/or k9 super fuel.

keep us updated on what it turns out to be


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Molly Graf said:


> sounds to me like the dog is allergic - duh I know - to something - but I doubt it's the vit c. Could even be one of the meats you are feeding - even raw-fed dogs can have food allergies - some dogs are allergic to chicken, others to beef... could be none of the above, could be environmental - some dogs are even allergic to grass, or nothing at all (it seems) causes it. Fleas for sure - even one can cause a dog allergic to flea bites huge problems. Hope you figure it out - I don't know much about allergies in dogs, but I think there are tests the vet can do to check for exactly what the dog is allergic to?


There are tests, yes. There are several threads here about the gold standard for environmental/inhalant allergies (the "scratch," or intradermal, tests). (The only accurate test for food allergies is the elimination diet, no matter what we may hear folks elsewhere mention about blood tests [RAST and ELISA].)

But again, with itching centered on the face area, I'd ask for the scraping, and with the backbone itch, I'd check for fleas. Neither of these will be anything close in complexity or cost to the tests mentioned above, and there's no good reason for not eliminating all the simple straightforward possibilities first.  (JMO.)

I doubt it's the vitamin C, too.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I give one of the dogs that was injured 1000 mg of ester c a day. Never seen her itch. Also gave Hunter 1000 mg a day as he got older but we had run over his hips when he was 6 1/2 mo old. He was 10 when I started giving it to him and then difference was quite noticeable in both dogs. Don't give it to any others.
Itching was getting to ne quite a problem after I had a couple of dogs at the Nationals. Both dogs that were there were itching and it seemed to be spreading so I figured it must be mites or something as it was spreading to other dogs. I brushed them with a good stiff hairbrush to get to the hide, and doused them with Gold Bond powder. Did this a few times and the itching ended. Gold Bond has Eucalyptol in it which is a natural pesticide. I always keep Gold Bond around.


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