# VACCINATING PUPPIES--16 Weeks



## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

*PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS-POST THIS MESSAGE.*

When considering at what age a puppy should begin receiving its core vaccines, along with assessing your pup's risk of disease exposure, consider the information from the American Animal Hospital Association stating that the maternal antibodies in a puppy younger than 16 weeks may interfer with the immune response. Bear in mind that there are risks associated with vaccinating as well as risks associated with not vaccinating, making an informed decision is important. Also, be aware that giving combo vaccines (multi-valent) and/or several shots at once increases the risk of adverse reactions as well as the risk that the vaccines will interfere with each other, resulting in neutralization or negation.

In the August 2008 issue of *The Whole Dog Journal, *Dr. Ronald Schultz reports in an article entitled, _Vaccinations 101,_ by Lisa Rodier, "Research shows that less than 50 percent of puppies will respond at six weeks; 75 percent at nine weeks; 90 percent at 12 weeks; and by 14 to16 weeks, close to 100 percent will respond. "

In an August 1, 2008 article in _DVM360_ entitled *Vaccination: An Overview*,http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com....jsp?id=568351 Dr. Melissa Kennedy states: Vaccination of the young begins at 6-8 weeks of age. Multiple boosters are given because maternal immunity interferes with vaccinal response. Because one doesn't know the level in each animal for each pathogen at each time point (and it is not feasible nor cost-effective to measure this), repeated boosters are given until the point when maternal immunity has likely decreased sufficiently to allow induction of immunity, usually at 16-18 weeks of age. 

On Page 16 of the of the _American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines_, it reports that: When vaccinating an animal, the age of the animal, the animal's immune status, and interference by maternal antibodies in the development of immunity must be considered. Research has demonstrated that the presence of passively acquired maternal antibodies significantly interferes with the immune response to many canine vaccines, including CPV [parvo], CDV [distemper], CAV-2 [hepatitis] and rabies vaccines." 

They further state on Page 17 that: "Multiple vaccinations with MLV vaccines are required at various ages only to ensure that one dose of the vaccine reaches the puppy's immune system without interference from passively acquired antibody. Two or more doses of killed vaccines (except rabies) and vectored vaccines are often required to induce an immune response, and both doses should be given at a time when the passively acquired antibody can no longer interfere. Thus, when puppies are first vaccinated at 16 weeks (or more) of age (an age when passively acquired antibodies generally don't cause interference), one does of an MLV vaccine, or two doses of a killed vaccine, are adequate to stimulate an immune response." 

The AAHA Canine Vaccine Guidelines also declare on Page 17 that: "If a pup fails to respond, primarily due to interference by passively acquired maternal antibody, it is necessary to revaccinate at a later time to ensure adequate immunity." 

On Page 13 of the _2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines_, it lists as the most common reason for vaccination failure is "the puppy has a sufficient amount of passively acquired maternal antibody (PAMA) to block the vaccine......" They elaborate by reporting that at the ages of 14 to 16 weeks of age, "PAMA should be at a level that will not block active immunization in most puppies (>95%) when a reliable product is used." 

*Vaccine Options & Prevention, MATERNAL ANTIBODY: OUR BIGGEST OBSTACLE* http://www.marvistavet.com/html/vacc...revention.html 

Puppies that were born first or were more aggressive at nursing on the first day, will get more maternal antibody than their littermates.

Mother dogs vaccinated at approximately the time of breeding will have the highest antibody levels to pass on to their puppies.

*** REMEMBER, the more maternal antibody a puppy has,
the less likely a vaccine is to work.

It should be noted that giving vaccine more frequently than every 2 weeks will cause interference between the two vaccines and neither can be expected to be effective. This includes giving vaccines for different infections. Vaccines should be spaced 2-4 weeks apart.

It is commonly held that puppies need a certain number of vaccines for protection to be achieved (usually either 3 or 4 is the “magic” number). The number of vaccines given has nothing to do with protection. In order for protection to be achieved, vaccine must be given when it can penetrate maternal antibody. 

*Combination Vaccines, Multiple Shots*--on Page 16 of the_ 2003 AAHA Guidelines_ under *Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safety*, it states that: *"Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "*

The World Small Animal Veterinary Association's 2007 Vaccination Guidelines state on Page 3 that: In situations where, for example, a decision must be made that an individual pet may have to receive only a single core vaccination during its lifetime, the VGG [Vaccination Guidelines Group] would emphasise that this should optimally be given at a time when that animal is most capable of responding immunologically, i.e., at the age of 16 weeks or greater."

*continued*


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

*continued*

Duration of Immunity: *The Rabies Vaccine Challenge* - Show #185 Animal Talk Radio Show 7/30/08 http://www.blogtalkradio.com/animalt...lenge-Show-186

*Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know*, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm 

*What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines,* Dr. Ronald Schultz 
http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007C...20Vaccines.htm 

*Vaccination: An Overview* Dr. Melissa Kennedy, DVM360 http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com....jsp?id=568351

*World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines* http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF) 

The *2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines *are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The *2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines *are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

October 1, 2002 _DVM Newsletter_ article entitled,* AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions*, http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/a...l.jsp?id=35171

July 1, 2003 _DVM Newsletter _article entitled, *What Do We Tell Our Clients?*, Developing thorough plan to educate staff on changing vaccine protocols essential for maintaining solid relationships with clients and ensuring quality care http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/a...l.jsp?id=61696

July 1, 2003, _DVM Newsletter _article, *Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility: Using an interactive template to plan service protocol changes *http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/a...l.jsp?id=61694

_Animal Wellness Magazine_ Article Vol. 8 Issue 6, *How Often Does he REALLY Need A Rabies Shot* 
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/files/AWM_V8I6.pdf

*The Rabies Challenge* Animal Wise Radio Interview
Listen to Animal Wise (scroll down to The Rabies Challenge 12/9/07)

*The Vaccine Challenge *Animal Talk Naturally Online Radio Show » The Vaccine Challenge - Show #91

Rabies Prevention -- United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP), *Center for Disease Control's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly* March 22, 1991 / 40(RR03);1-19 http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00041987.htm *"A fully vaccinated dog or cat is unlikely to become infected with rabies, although rare cases have been reported (48. In a nationwide study of rabies among dogs and cats in 1988, only one dog and two cats that were vaccinated contracted rabies (49). All three of these animals had received only single doses of vaccine; no documented vaccine failures occurred among dogs or cats that had received two vaccinations. "*


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

****ing spam. Someone delete this person, or at least tell her to chill the **** out. 

HELLO T R A I N I N G FORUM, NOT your personal agenda forum.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

you know what, **** it, I am going to go and over vaccinate some puppies today.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff, it's in the diet & health forum. If you don't want to read about diet or health, don't come in! :-\"


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

According to a study published in the January 2010 issue of *Journal of Comparative Pathology* entitled, _Age and Long-term Protective Immunity in Dogs and Cats _byDr. Ronald Schultz, et als., "Old dogs and cats rarely die from vaccine-preventable infectious disease, especially when they have been vaccinated and immunized as young adults (i.e. between 16 weeks and 1 year of age). However, young animals do die, often because vaccines were either not given or not given at an appropriate age (e.g. too early in life in the presence of maternally derived antibody [MDA]).......

The present study examines the DOI for core viral vaccines in dogs that had not been revaccinated for as long as 9 years. These animals had serum antibody to canine distemper virus (CDV), canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2) and canine adenovirus type-1 (CAV-1) at levels considered protective and when challenged with these viruses, the dogs resisted infection and/or disease. Thus, even a single dose of modified live virus (MLV) canine core vaccines (against CDV, cav-2 and cpv-2) or MLV feline core vaccines (against feline parvovirus [FPV], feline calicivirus [FCV] and feline herpesvirus [FHV]), when administered at 16 weeks or older, could provide long-term immunity in a very high percentage of animals, while also increasing herd immunity." http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WHW-4XVBB71-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2010&_rdoc=17&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(%23toc%236861%232010%23998579999.8998%231578454%23FLA%23display%23Volume)&_cdi=6861&_sort=d&_docanchor=&_ct=24&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=fb57fe5e84a086c6b1fa65abea55dbd8


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ****ing spam. Someone delete this person, or at least tell her to chill the **** out.
> 
> HELLO T R A I N I N G FORUM, NOT your personal agenda forum.


I do actually agree. I'm a minimal vaccinator, but vaccines are always a case by case cost benefit analysis. If you don't bring your puppy ANYWHERE, you have NEVER had parvo in the backyard, you don't work with ANY OTHER DOGS as a trainer, vet tech, vet, shelter worker/volunteer, go into a pet store, go in a park where dogs are, sure, lock the pup up and don't vaccinate until 16 weeks. But since most of us do want to bring our pups beyond the confines of the house, get the vaccines plus titers. Puppies dying of parvo really sucks and treatment isn't cheap...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Actually, I appreciate the link. I've been following the Rabies Challenge and our club has donated. The information and studies on the maternal antibodies is interesting. You hear alot about it but not the exact percentages and ages regarding interference. It was confusing to me before in terms of the effect of maternal antibodies and to what degree the puppy is covered or not. In this day and age of no longer vaccinating adults, seems like you might want to know the bitch's titer level before breeding. I still do my puppy schedule and can't see waiting to 16 weeks but I think all the above links and info are useful and convenient. Nothing like information increasing your ability to make informed choices and decisions, so thanks for the updates.

Terrasita


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I do actually agree. I'm a minimal vaccinator, but vaccines are always a case by case cost benefit analysis. If you don't bring your puppy ANYWHERE, you have NEVER had parvo in the backyard, you don't work with ANY OTHER DOGS as a trainer, vet tech, vet, shelter worker/volunteer, go into a pet store, go in a park where dogs are, sure, lock the pup up and don't vaccinate until 16 weeks. But since most of us do want to bring our pups beyond the confines of the house, get the vaccines plus titers. Puppies dying of parvo really sucks and treatment isn't cheap...


Maren, 

You might find the information in the article below interesting regarding puppies, the age at which they are vaccinated, and taking them out to socialize before they are vaccinated/completely vaccinated.

*Early Puppy Socialization Classes: Risks vs. Benefits*_ DVM 360 _December 1, 2009 http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/Medicine/Early-puppy-socialization-classes-risks-vs-benefit/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/646902?ref=25

The American Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) recently released a position paper outlining the importance of early puppy socialization, preferably before the puppy reaches 12 to 16 weeks old. Four veterinarians with extensive experience discuss early puppy socialization in a roundtable format.

Kris


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kris, I have read that article previously and pretty much agree. Note that on page three, not a single vet recommends bringing totally unvaccinated puppies to a puppy class for socialization. They all recommend at least starting the series. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting your other post, but what your previous post suggests is it's okay to take totally unvaccinated young puppies to puppy classes. 



> Thus, even a single dose of modified live virus (MLV) canine core vaccines (against CDV, cav-2 and cpv-2) ....when administered at 16 weeks or older, could provide long-term immunity in a very high percentage of animals, while also increasing herd immunity.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Kris, I have read that article previously and pretty much agree. Note that on page three, not a single vet recommends bringing totally unvaccinated puppies to a puppy class for socialization. They all recommend at least starting the series. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting your other post, but what your previous post suggests is it's okay to take totally unvaccinated young puppies to puppy classes.


Maren,

The quote you cited from Dr. Schultz's study does not suggest anything about puppy classes or taking animals out for socialization, it is citing the results of the study and the effect of maternally derived antibodies in interferring with the immunological response if given at ages at which MDA's are still present.

This information is presented for dog owners to weigh the risks/benefit of vaccinating their puppies early or later.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kris L. Christine said:


> Maren,
> 
> The quote you cited from Dr. Schultz's study does not suggest anything about puppy classes or taking animals out for socialization, it is citing the results of the study and the effect of maternally derived antibodies in interferring with the immunological response if given at ages at which MDA's are still present.
> 
> This information is presented for dog owners to weigh the risks/benefit of vaccinating their puppies early or later.


To me too, your words kinda suggested that you were presenting information that "suggests is it's okay to take totally unvaccinated young puppies to puppy classes."

I too may be misreading the posts. 

I just want to point out to readers of the thread that following and reading the links is important.

BTW, I too am a minimal-vaccination individual-case-by-individual-case proponent, and part of a training club that provides financial support (as much as we can, none of us being independently wealthy) for the Rabies Challenge Fund.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> To me too, your words kinda suggested that you were presenting information that "suggests is it's okay to take totally unvaccinated young puppies to puppy classes."
> 
> I too may be misreading the posts.
> 
> ...


Connie,

Thank you for supporting the RCF!

This information is all for the enlightenment of dog owners, and we are all different. For instance, my family lives in an isolated area where we cannot even see another house. Our dogs do not encounter other dogs, unless we choose to have a play date, and we train them ourselves -- thus, because of their limited exposure, we have no problem waiting until 14 or 16 weeks to vaccinate a puppy in order to avoid multiple boosters for distemper, hepatitis, and parvo.

For people on this forum with working dogs, that probably won't be the approach they choose.

My homeopathic vet has not vaccinated her own dog against distemper, hepatitis, and parvo although he is a trained tracker who participates in trials and accompanies her to work every day. Personally, I would not go that route and believe in giving all the core vaccines, not just rabies.

So, the links and data are presented for anyone interested to read and assess their own situation.

Kris


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kris L. Christine said:


> Connie,
> 
> Thank you for supporting the RCF!
> 
> ...



She is free to do as she likes (except with rabies), but I feel not vaccinating your dogs at all but bringing them to work every day around sick animals, especially as a vet, is about as foolish as homeopathy is itself (holistic is great, homeopathy, not so much...). That totally violates the rules of epidemiology and herd health. Schultz even wrote in the AHVMA journal that we don't need to vaccinate less as a whole, but vaccinate more animals, just do it less often.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kris L. Christine said:


> ... My homeopathic vet has not vaccinated her own dog against distemper, hepatitis, and parvo although he is a trained tracker who participates in trials and accompanies her to work every day. Personally, I would not go that route and believe in giving all the core vaccines, not just rabies.


Wow. I wouldn't go that route either.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wow. I wouldn't go that route either.


Hundreds, if not thousands, of dog owners all over the world have chosen that route for themselves, in addition to feeding a species-appropriate diet and not using chemicals in and on their dogs and homes. I, for one, am glad we still have that right. My current dogs were vaccinated before I got them, but do not currently receive any. My oldest has not had a shot in 7 years. 

Say no to forced vaccination!!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kristen, there is a HUGE difference between being a minimal vaccinator (which I am) and not vaccinating AT ALL. Rabies vaccinations should not be optional. It is a public health issue. The end. A huge amount of people die around the world each year because of rabies. We also don't get to see people in America usually die of rabies like in other countries because it is strongly controlled in the pet population by mandatory vaccination laws. 



> Rabies in humans is 100% preventable through prompt appropriate medical care. Yet, *more than 55,000 people, mostly in Africa and Asia, die from rabies every year* - a rate of one person every ten minutes. *The most important global source of rabies in humans is from uncontrolled rabies in dogs.* Children are often at greatest risk from rabies. They are more likely to be bitten by dogs, and are also more likely to be severely exposed through multiple bites in high-risk sites on the body. Severe exposures make it more difficult to prevent rabies unless access to good medical care is immediately available. This major source of rabies in humans can be eliminated through ensuring adequate animal vaccination and control, educating those at risk, and enhancing access of those bitten to appropriate medical care.


http://www.worldrabiesday.org/EN/World_Rabies_Day_Mission.html

Rabies is also one of most horrible ways to die. They have to strap children down to hospital beds while they foam and scream and struggle and slowly die an agonal death. This is an example. I love my dogs more than just about anything, but just imagine your own child having to die this way with nothing they can do for them. No dog is worth that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yVw0BBlxK4

And I won't even go into how crappy it is to have puppies die from parvo or older dogs that have to be euthanized because of distemper (which is thankfully much less common due to vaccination). Again, I am a minimal vaccinator, but the principles of epidemiology state that approximately 70% of the population must have immunity through vaccine or natural exposure for those that are immunologically naive to be protected with herd health. As Schultz says, we need to vaccinate MORE animals, just vaccinate them LESS often.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Perhaps the homeopathic vet utilizes nosodes. I know of an Australian Shepherd Breeder who goes this route and its been a successful program for her puppies as well as adults.
The terms for some aren't necessarily interchangeable.


Terrasita


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