# Send out



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

When training the send away, what methods do you like to use, and how do you proof the dog???


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I'm not ready to be training for it yet, just reading about it....Since I just acquired this link http://workingdogs.com/doc0010.htm to this article, (and am still in the process of reading the information) thought I'd send it out to you if you haven't already seen it...the article addresses various proofs/what if your dog does this/that scenarios. 

I believe the author of this article is a member here...Ann Marie Chaffin. I *think* I recall seeing her around here, but maybe I'm mixing her up with Lynn Cheffins....???? 

Good topic.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

IMO, the biggest misunderstanding about teaching the sendout is people teach the dog to go to a particular spot on a given field. We want to teach the dog to go to where we point, regardless of where we are. 
Let the dog see you place an article on the ground (close). Send the dog to that article. When the dog begins to understand, start adding articles in a circular fashon at 12 and 6 oclock. At this is understood by the dog, add more articles at 3 and 9 oclock. 
Add distance and articles as the dog understands the concept of going only where you point. As the articles are added there will start to be multiples in view of the dog. This is where the idea of going ONLY where you point starts to enter the dogs head.
Teaching for a given spot on a given field is fine if you never plan on trialing anywqhere but home field. 
Teaching a dog to go only where you point will avoid the problems encountered when trialing on a strange field.
The down is added ONLY when the sendout and down are solid as separate exercises.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Most sendout methods involve a dog with lots of toy drive. I have a dog with lots of food drive, but not a lot of ball drive. So I've been trying a method with a bath towel folded in half and food on it. When I get home from work, I'll find the article with the instructions and post it.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> IMO, the biggest misunderstanding about teaching the sendout is people teach the dog to go to a particular spot on a given field. We want to teach the dog to go to where we point, regardless of where we are.
> Let the dog see you place an article on the ground (close). Send the dog to that article. When the dog begins to understand, start adding articles in a circular fashon at 12 and 6 oclock. At this is understood by the dog, add more articles at 3 and 9 oclock.
> Add distance and articles as the dog understands the concept of going only where you point. As the articles are added there will start to be multiples in view of the dog. This is where the idea of going ONLY where you point starts to enter the dogs head.
> Teaching for a given spot on a given field is fine if you never plan on trialing anywqhere but home field.
> ...



That is the way I would teach a retriever, I don't see why it wouldn't work with the sendout as well. Solid building blocks once the foundation is layed, it's easy to raise the walls. In this case, it would be adding distance.

DFrost


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

A little of this & a little of that. Probably a good description would be versions of Flinks, Dildei, Calderon, teaching to go to boundaries, and methods I have learned from those far more experienced than I, who have been so kind as to help me out along the way. I agree the dog needs to learn to go in the direction indicated, for me, it's easier to teach that with a target or reward in the beginning. Once the platz is brought into the excercize the reward comes from me after the platz. For proofing I go to different fields. Have used a sleeve in the past for target to increase speed in the voraus. OK, your turn, tell us all how this is stupid and indicative of what is wrong with schutzhund today.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am curious, How many of you have a problem with the down in this exersize???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am curious, How many of you have a problem with the down in this exersize???


 None! If they are taught completely separate and not brought together till both are solid it shouldn't be a problem.
I down my dog only 1-2 times out of 15-20 send outs. This also keeps them from anticipating. 
I havent taught a forced down in years. It's always a game and always leads to reward or treats.
I supprizes the crap out of myself about a year ago. Thunder was about 6 inches behind a cat at a dead run. I hollered "platz" and he hit the deck like a sack of wet mice. He then looked at me with his tail wagging, waiting for a reward. 
I did the same a week or so ago with my JRT chasing a rabbit. 
I think a motivational down is better with a dominant dog because it doesn't cause conflict between dog and handler.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is so cool when they understand like that. Congradulations on your showing at your trial, very nice.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

A.M. Chaffin is a Sch person. Her club is out here in Co, High plains or somethin like that.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> IMO, the biggest misunderstanding about teaching the sendout is people teach the dog to go to a particular spot on a given field. We want to teach the dog to go to where we point, regardless of where we are.
> Let the dog see you place an article on the ground (close). Send the dog to that article. When the dog begins to understand, start adding articles in a circular fashon at 12 and 6 oclock. At this is understood by the dog, add more articles at 3 and 9 oclock.
> Add distance and articles as the dog understands the concept of going only where you point. As the articles are added there will start to be multiples in view of the dog. This is where the idea of going ONLY where you point starts to enter the dogs head.
> Teaching for a given spot on a given field is fine if you never plan on trialing anywqhere but home field.
> ...



This method is one of many I used in teaching my boy the sendaway. The majority of my training was based on handling and lining exercises retreiver trainers use for teaching blind retrieves. Feist has a reliable sendaway pretty mcuh anywhere even with an angle or through obstacles or brush. This is a good method for teaching a practical send away as well as a Mondioring sendaway (which can be any direction on the field). 

I do think to much focus on the dog being aware of where you point will slow down a dog a bit too much for a very fast sendaway for Schutzhund. Here speed earns points and the sendaway is always lengthwise down the center of the field.

Like many things in Schutzhund, points are alloted more to asthetics than practicality (like the blind search).

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Another way of teaching the sendout was to put the dog on a short cable, attatched to a long cable that was pinioned on both ends.

This was how I used to teach a dog to go straight across diagonal cornrows.

I have been considering using this to get the straight out and back send out.
I just cannot decide the length that would be appropriate. I like the set distance, because you get really good at figuring distances. Never know when someone might get tricky on ya.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Amber Scott said:


> Most sendout methods involve a dog with lots of toy drive. I have a dog with lots of food drive, but not a lot of ball drive. So I've been trying a method with a bath towel folded in half and food on it. When I get home from work, I'll find the article with the instructions and post it.


Amber, to maximize the effectiveness of this method try taking the food off of the towel and using a clicker or a verbal marker to mark the moment the dog hits the towel with his front feet. The reward comes from the handler after the mark for hitting the towel with his feet. Start very close until he leaves you with no hesitation on the command to go out and hits the towel with some force. Add distance gradually (as you add distance the dog will not be able to see the towel until he leaves you and moves down the field because it is laying flat and will be out of his field of vision until he is within ten to fifteen feet of it.

I have seen Mike Ellis teach his students this same way and have been very impressed with the results. It is also the way we teach flyball dogs to hit the box and they are very fast in both directions even though the big reward is for the return. This "touch pad" method also lends itself well if you are thinking of usinbg force later.

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't teach the pointing thingy, as it will fail you at some point, maybe not on the sport field as much.

I teach that the dog MUST go straight out from heel.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Yesterday I attended a Roland Siebold seminar on obedience and protection. Overall I was very impressed with the attention to detail in the obedience and the thoughtful use of compulsion in addition to motivational training. 

One of the things that peaked my interest most was the technique for the send away. The beginning sendaway was taught by force. The handler takes the dog close to the end of the field and downs him in a spot in the center of the field. This provides a reference point for the dog much as a "touch pad" or towel would. The handler then takes several steps back and commands the dog to "voraus". As he does this he takes the dog by the line and pops him toward the reference point. As the dog moves forward to the reference point he is commanded to down. This is repeated until the dog is moving freely to the reference point from that distance. Distance is added as the dog shows a relatively clear understanding at the current distance. Periodically in the process the dog is reward by the handler at the spot where he is downed. Reward is based on a better than average response to the command.

Over the course of several sessions over several days my friend's dog who was working on this made very nice progress especially given this is an ex-police dog who had a habit of eating the handler when pressured. Only once in the learning process did this dog display any of his prior handler aggression and this was very mild and I attributed more to frustration at not recieveing a reward in an exercise where he expected one. Which to me is quite substantial proof the stress to the dog was minimal and clarity high.

It was very different then the way I taught and have taught send aways. I was impressed with the effectiveness and prefer it to using reward based training, finding a weak spot in your training then using force as a band-aid to fix the problem. This method was systematic and made each step of the process clear to the dog.

An interesting note...although Roland's club members do sometimes use the remote collar for some exercises, they never use the remote for the sendaway. The correction and the reward always come from the handler. He has competed with and coached many top level SchH dogs and assured us that as soon as the dog understands and we bring the reward in after the down consistently, the speed comes. With this techniqe there is no concern the dog will break the down and search for the toy on his own and he will always down as it is only after the down his reward comes.

For those unfamiliar with the technique, I think having someone to coach you through the steps and to be present to help you through the rough spots would be important. 

On the whole, I would recommend anyone who trains for SchH attend a Roldan Sieblod seminar.

Lisa


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't teach the pointing thingy, as it will fail you at some point, maybe not on the sport field as much.
> 
> I teach that the dog MUST go straight out from heel.


IMO, I think the pointing is more formality then functional. The straight sendout is all about the steup. Straight heeling in schutzhund and a setting up in a straight sit position with the retrievers. 
I did use a lot of hand pointing in AKC Utility for the gloves but looking back, I believe it was more about setting up in the right direction.
I might add that another "proof" for the Schutzhund sendout is doing a halt, then sending the dog. I see to many dogs forging because they KNOW the sendout is comming (pattern training). Doing LOTS of sendouts from the halt/sit helps contain anticipating the run.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> Amber, to maximize the effectiveness of this method try taking the food off of the towel and using a clicker or a verbal marker to mark the moment the dog hits the towel with his front feet. The reward comes from the handler after the mark for hitting the towel with his feet. Start very close until he leaves you with no hesitation on the command to go out and hits the towel with some force. Add distance gradually (as you add distance the dog will not be able to see the towel until he leaves you and moves down the field because it is laying flat and will be out of his field of vision until he is within ten to fifteen feet of it.
> 
> Lisa


So, the dog has already started going out to the towel for the food reward, only short distances, then downing there. He's doesn't down automatically, I call it. He does have a marker (Yes) that we use for other things, though I haven't been using it here. I am to use the marker when he hits the towel, then down him?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Until he has the send out solid, forget the down. Your trying to work on two different exercises. Get both solid first!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm going to be attending a Roland Seibel seminar in the fall & am really looking forward to it. Were you at the one in San Diego? My pup is by his great dog, Janoch v d Grube Waldecke.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Yes, use the marker when he gets there most times and down him and use the marker other times. Once he is good at both going to the towel from about half the field and good at downing everytime the first time you aask him to start adding duration. Meaning, after the down say "good" not "yes" and return to him to feed him in place on the towel.

When I am teaching the sendaway, when I mark "yes" the dog returns to me to get the reward. If you do not trust your dog (my Malinois are intrinsically obedient) to hold his place until the mark you can certainly go to him to reward. More speed is created however if the dog does not have to wait for you to get there to reward him (why hurry when the boss won't be here for a while with my paycheck).

My friends and I use reward the dog from our hands after the down and have never had a dog break his down on the sendaway in trial. But it takes a little faith initially.

This discussion reminds me I need to teach my Border Terrier the sendaway soon. Since I will use food and a touchpad and a verbal marker maybe I will videotape the sessions for entertainment (teaching a BT is always entertaining).

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Until he has the send out solid, forget the down. Your trying to work on two different exercises. Get both solid first!


I do agree you should work both seperately until they are solid. Play Ivan Balabonov's game, pretend to throw the dogs ball over his head then cue him to down as he runs for it, randomly ask for and reward the down as he is running free off leach. If he can down under these criteria the down on the sendaway will be a no brainer. By no means should you ask your dog to down if there is any chance he will not obey the command. It is like working on straight fronts after a blindingly fast recall. Reward the most important feature of the behavior...speed first. 

With the SchH sendaway I always ask my students what they would rather lose points on a slow sendaway or a slow down... a dog with a fast sendaway and a slow down still shows drive and temperment. A dog who lopes down the field and hits the down perfect is a bit disappointing.

Keep your emphasis on SPEED!

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> I'm going to be attending a Roland Seibel seminar in the fall & am really looking forward to it. Were you at the one in San Diego? My pup is by his great dog, Janoch v d Grube Waldecke.



Although I had a bit guarded attitude when I arrived at the seminar as many Europeans I have seen work dogs are not as detail oriented as I am and often have dogs that forge and crab terribly (yes, they can still earn V scores in OB but it drives me crazy(er)). Roland was very detail oriented, akind and clear instructor and put much empahasis on play with and the relationship with the handler. I would highly recommend him to anyone in the sport.

Lisa


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