# alternate bite locations...



## Lee Robinson

Decoy's name is Wayne.


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## Kyle Sprag

Flip-Flops, piss poor decoy work, nice job......LOL

Ever going to get one of those Adults you breed the sh!t out of off a line?


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## Mike Scheiber

Very few videos of PPD or pics off line. Even less demonstrating any sort of control. 
Mostly if you do find them it is GSD's and it looks like one of the Little Rascals skits.
There are a couple of trainers here that have video of some good stuff that there doing.


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## Lee Robinson

Kyle Sprag said:


> Flip-Flops, piss poor decoy work, nice job......LOL
> 
> Ever going to get one of those Adults you breed the sh!t out of off a line?


Is this the same Kyle Sprag that bought dogs already full trained and then ruined them...and failed I think every trial he enterred? 

Is this the same KS that asked me to make a video of my dog in a strange environment, on a slick surface, and agreed that he would do the same if I did so...but then after I did so he never fullfilled his agreement? 

in a boat for the first time... http://www.chimerakennels.com/protectioninboat.wmv 

Is this the same KS that RUINED every dog he ever owned?

Btw, those are not flip flops...however you may a pretty good flip flop yourself for sure.


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Is this the same Kyle Sprag that bought dogs already full trained and then ruined them...and failed I think every trial he enterred?
> 
> Is this the same KS that asked me to make a video of my dog in a strange environment, on a slick surface, and agreed that he would do the same if I did so...but then after I did so he never fullfilled his agreement?
> 
> in a boat for the first time... http://www.chimerakennels.com/protectioninboat.wmv
> 
> Offleash send, recall, reattack, and heel off field... http://www.chimerakennels.com/Bullettesuit021706.wmv
> 
> Is this the same KS that RUINED every dog he ever owned?
> 
> Btw, those are not flip flops...however you may a pretty good flip flop yourself for sure.


LOL, your Lies won't work here! [-X


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## Lee Robinson

Kyle Sprag said:


> LOL, your Lies won't work here! [-X


What part are you claiming is a lie? Be careful...I may still have some proof of your behavior.


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## Connie Sutherland

Am I seeing an exchange that belongs in PMs?


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## Kyle Sprag

Let's see,

BBM M - Sultan HOT - Passing score at Rodney Spikers PP tournament

BBM F - Bali - Passing MR Brevet California Trial

BBM M - Pedro - Passing FRII score in Utah, Passing MRIII score in New Mexico, Passing MRIII score in Calilfornia


As for you Video Fantasy, I can't help you, if you want to see me or my dogs go to a trial.


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## Kyle Sprag

From the UAMRA Site

California Alliance Mondioring Trial Results
Trial ONE - Feb. 21, 2009
Judge Charley Bartholomew; USA
Decoys: Tim Bartlett, TX & Dwayne Williams, NV
Saturday Feb. 21, 2009​*Brevet (100 pts)​*DOG BREED HANDLER SCORE
Senna Precious White F BMal Robert Wademan 98 Q
Naughty II F GSD Tate Hayes 97 Q
Bali F BMal Kyle Sprague 88 Q
Velite M BMal Jon Wiseman 86 Q
Mickey M APBT Billy Rayas 58 NQ
Ace PI M BMal Richard Damico 50 NQ​Joeri v. Amelisweerd M BMal Tate Hayes Pulled Dog

*MONDIORING III:​*O’Bre-on’s Ysha Rose F BMal Sharon Novak 360.5 Q
Mangouste du Loups du Soleil M BMal Lisa Geller 344 Q
Pedro M B.Mal Kyle Sprague 319.5 Q
Zule du Ciel Rouge F B.Mal Augusta Farley 295 NQ​*JUDGE:​*​Jos Helsen, Belgium​
*DECOYS:​*​Jeremy Norton, Minneapolis, MN​
Chris Moody, Amarillo, TX
*
MONDIORING III:​*Jackson du Loups Du Soleil (M)​​B.Mal Donna Matey 378 Q​
Pedro (M)​​B.Mal Kyle Sprague 343 Q​
*JUDGE:​Ms, Charley Bartholomew, USA​
DECOYS:​Chris Moody, Amarillo, TX​
*Matt Moore, Ft. Worth, TX​*Kevin Jobe, Amarillo, TX

From the NARA Site

French Ring II

DogHandlerBrd/SexClubScoreRatingC’Tosco des BarriquesAdrian CentenoBBM/M So Cal All Breed 291.500Q Springfall’s RexAdrian CentenoDS/M So Cal All Breed 286.000Q PedroKyle SpragueBBM/M Independent 259.000Q Dantero’s Red River RapidsKadi ThingvallBBM/F So Cal All Breed 241.500Q Dutch du Chateau de KarmaScott WilliamsBBM/M So Cal All Breed 0.000NQ/ABD 
*


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## Kyle Sprag

A Few dogs people have trusted me to catch and work over the years:

Koba - PSA 1

Trixie - PSA 2 and one Leg of PSA 3

Breston - PSA 1

Foxie - PSA 1

Fritz - PSA 1

Diablo - PSA 2

Porter PSA 3

Bas - PSA 1, FR III

Jinx - PSA PDC, PSA TC

Vito, PH 1, PSA 1

Moose - PSA 1

Berlin - PSA 1, Sch III

Gus - PSA PDC

Fox - Sch II


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## Lee Robinson

Looks like you are doing better than you used to. Glad to see you improve.


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Looks like you are doing better than you used to. Glad to see you improve.


Improve? Goes back quite a few years, repeating the same Lie over and over won't make it true.

Sad to see you haven't changed or learned a thing! :-o


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## Chris McDonald

Connie Sutherland said:


> Am I seeing an exchange that belongs in PMs?


 
Hell no this is good stuff! So far I think this Kyle guy is schooling this Lee guy. Can someone explain to me what is so alternative about these bite locations? I mean the dog is tugging on the bottom of the suit… what good is that? I hate it when my dog does that. I don’t really know what to do except “out” him if he does it, and what’s with everybody choking their dogs to “out”? Are there dogs out there that must be choked to “out”? Or is that how you train them to out?
And they may not be flip flops exactly, but there closer to flip flops than anything else. I think it’s fair to say they fall in the flip flop category! 
But now it’s this Lee guys turn to show this Kyle guy up!! Go Lee, GO 

It would be a dam shame to PM this stuff. 

And do you guy know that the forum was down for a few weeks? Who broke what?


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## Lee Robinson

You obviously don't know KS or his history. This goof ball used to put 3 or 4 e-collars on a dog at one time in different locations...and try to use them all to fine tune a dog that he purchased already trained and titled. Then, after ruining the dogs and failling trials he would sell them and start over.


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## Chris McDonald

By his list it looks like he has a better history than me.. but then who doesn’t? 
Now what about those flip flops? Are they standard dog training foot gear? If I was you I would say that I just put them on for some water bites… or maybe say that I had a real bad corn on my foot or its real life training. Tell him you usually wear boots. 
Don’t get me wrong these sport people have some funny gear too,,,, you ever see them out there? They dress like their athletes on the field


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## Kyle Sprag

Some notables I have spent time with a Learned From in Person spelling may be off:

Ivan Balabanov

Michael Ellis

Jerry Bradshaw (Tarheel K9)

Randy Hare

Ken Licklighter

Stewart Hillard

Fred Hassen

Don Yarnel

Dave Reaver (Adlerhorst Int)

Dom Donovan

Jori Gotier (Redwook Krest)

Liciano Oliva

Domonique Piton

Tim Burk (USA Breed Warden)


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## Chris McDonald

How do you put 3 or 4 ecollars on one dog? That must have been a site!


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> You obviously don't know KS or his history. This goof ball used to put 3 or 4 e-collars on a dog at one time in different locations...and try to use them all to fine tune a dog that he purchased already trained and titled. Then, after ruining the dogs and failling trials he would sell them and start over.


 
Lee you don't have to make up more Lies, you know that is complete BS! [-X


A Lot of people here know me and have known me for many years and KNOW this is simply not true.


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## Kyle Sprag

What dogs have I "ruined" Lee?

I have only sold 3 dogs (and not for much):

Sultan who I pass a PP comp with with PD judges

Banshee who is a Working Drug dog with a PD in the south

Cricket PH 1 who I sold to a friend as a House PP Dog


I bred one litter out of My female Bali, 3 of the 7 are with PDs as dual purpose dogs, 1 died and 3 are Demo Dogs for Training businesses


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## Chris McDonald

But seriously now, isn’t a dog tugging on the bottom of a jacket a bad bite?


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## Kyle Sprag

Chris McDonald said:


> But seriously now, isn’t a dog tugging on the bottom of a jacket a bad bite?


 
Bad? do you need an answer to that? Not to mention this is suppose to be a "finished" dog :-o[-o<:-o


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## David Frost

If you want to discuss alternate bite locations, this is the thread to do it. If you are going to discuss personalities, all have been told, it belongs in PM's. 

The last question was; "But seriously now, isn’t a dog tugging on the bottom of a jacket a bad bite?"

You can discuss that question or other questions pertaining to the topic of the thread. Now it's back on track, have fun with it.

DFrost


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## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> Bad? do you need an answer to that? Not to mention this is suppose to be a "finished" dog :-o[-o<:-o


Ya, I need an answer.. when someone who owns a kennel posts a picture fools like me assume that they might be proper pictures. So I got to ask the question. Then I get upset the spineless experts on this forum don’t point it out for fools like me to learn. 
What the hell do I know? Maybe there trained to steal coats, rip them right off your back.


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## Chris McDonald

David Frost said:


> If you want to discuss alternate bite locations, this is the thread to do it. If you are going to discuss personalities, all have been told, it belongs in PM's.
> 
> The last question was; "But seriously now, isn’t a dog tugging on the bottom of a jacket a bad bite?"
> 
> You can discuss that question or other questions pertaining to the topic of the thread. Now it's back on track, have fun with it.
> 
> DFrost


Straighten up now guys, no more name calling


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## Kyle Sprag

David Frost said:


> If you want to discuss alternate bite locations, this is the thread to do it. If you are going to discuss personalities, all have been told, it belongs in PM's.
> 
> The last question was; "But seriously now, isn’t a dog tugging on the bottom of a jacket a bad bite?"
> 
> You can discuss that question or other questions pertaining to the topic of the thread. Now it's back on track, have fun with it.
> 
> DFrost


David I respect what you wrote But


my original post was about the subject you mention, I don't really care if someone challenges my ability to question the work but draw the Line at someone out and out LYING about me in an attempt to bolser their perceived position in the matter.

Thanks


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## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> David I respect what you wrote But
> 
> 
> my original post was about the subject you mention, I don't really care if someone challenges my ability to question the work but draw the Line at someone out and out LYING about me in an attempt to bolser their perceived position in the matter.
> 
> Thanks


 
I see a lock in the future!


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## Kyle Sprag

Chris McDonald said:


> Ya, I need an answer.. when someone who owns a kennel posts a picture fools like me assume that they might be proper pictures. So I got to ask the question. Then I get upset the spineless experts on this forum don’t point it out for fools like me to learn.
> What the hell do I know? Maybe there trained to steal coats, rip them right off your back.


Well Chris you make a good point, there are a lot of YoYos out there making silly claims about a lot of things. I have never trained with anyone nor know anyone who would think that this is a good example of bite work or training! Your Question is why I feel the need to make a comment on this.


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## Connie Sutherland

_The last question was; "But seriously now, isn’t a dog tugging on the bottom of a jacket a bad bite?"_ (David)


So then there is no legitimate coat-stealing training?

I'll be darned.


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## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> Well Chris you make a good point, there are a lot of YoYos out there making silly claims about a lot of things. I have never trained with anyone nor know anyone who would think that this is a good example of bite work or training! Your Question is why I feel the need to make a comment on this.


Now what about the choking? Is it a training method? Do you give an out command while you do it. Why would you use this method instead of a good old prong correction? I don’t know if this is a finished dog or not but this choking stuff really seams like to much work for me I’d rather just yell “out” . I have found some YOYOs to be fun, but that might just be me


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## Chris McDonald

Connie Sutherland said:


> So then there is no legitimate coat-stealing training?


Be serious, grow up or you might get this locked


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris McDonald said:


> Be serious, grow up or you might get this locked



Oops. You're right. I might have to modit my post.


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## Kyle Sprag

Connie Sutherland said:


> _The last question was; "But seriously now, isn’t a dog tugging on the bottom of a jacket a bad bite?"_ (David)
> 
> 
> So then there is no legitimate coat-stealing training?
> 
> I'll be darned.


I did know a guy that trained his JRT to steal unlaced Bikini Tops! \\/


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## Chris McDonald

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oops. You're right. I might have to modit my post.


Ha


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## Connie Sutherland

I am legitimately interested in that "out" question, though.


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## Steve Strom

Connie Sutherland said:


> _The last question was; "But seriously now, isn’t a dog tugging on the bottom of a jacket a bad bite?"_ (David)
> 
> 
> So then there is no legitimate coat-stealing training?
> 
> I'll be darned.


Hmm. I thought it was just targeted bite training so the coat lasts longer.


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## Kyle Sprag

Chris McDonald said:


> Now what about the choking? Is it a training method? Do you give an out command while you do it. Why would you use this method instead of a good old prong correction? I don’t know if this is a finished dog or not but this choking stuff really seams like to much work for me I’d rather just yell “out” . I have found some YOYOs to be fun, but that might just be me


I don't think it is a training method, it is just a tactical out. Not all that uncommon but goes along with Mike S. comments about control. IMO a dog should be outing as a pup with some consistnecy but again I don't have a problem with a PSD or PPD being choke off a bite.


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## Kyle Sprag

Steve Strom said:


> Hmm. I thought it was just targeted bite training so the coat lasts longer.


LOL, I think he has had that suit for quite a few Years, I guess it is working.........LMAO


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## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> I don't think it is a training method, it is just a tactical out. Not all that uncommon but goes along with Mike S. comments about control. IMO a dog should be outing as a pup with some consistnecy but again I don't have a problem with a PSD or PPD being choke off a bite.


Do you give the dog a verbal “out” command first then perform this. When you say tactical what do you mean? I have seen dogs get choked out for many reasons and can understand why in most situations but I don’t fully understand in a “out” situation such as this one.


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## Kyle Sprag

Chris McDonald said:


> Do you give the dog a verbal “out” command first then perform this. When you say tactical what do you mean? I have seen dogs get choked out for many reasons and can understand why in most situations but I don’t fully understand in a “out” situation such as this one.


I can't speak as to what was trying to be done in the pics but it looks to me like the dog is simply being choked off the bite rather that being told to let go or (Out). IMO this is not training the handler has not trained the dog to out or he doesn't care if the dog outs.

I know some PDs who choose this approach because they don't want the dog to ever come off the bite for any reason until the suspect is in cuffed up. Less chance of the dog getting confused and Outing when it should not. At least this is how it was explained to me and I can see the point with PSD as well as someone's PPD.


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## Lee Robinson

*mod edit*

It was the craziest thing I have seen in "dog training."

As far as my dog, KS states he is supposed to be a finished dog. [-X I have never claimed Preacher to be a finished dog...in fact he isn't even a trained dog, so I don't know where he pulled that one from. Preacher is however a serious dogthat took to PP work naturally and one a criminal would not want to cross paths with. The bite in the last pictures where he is on the bottom of the coat is the same bite where he hit the stomach...but I am trying to get him off. Preacher has not been trained to out and he hadn't been worked in about a year so we were brushing up on his work. I believe a PP dog should be able to bite without the decoy making a presentation. His out will come later. As of now, I hold him like that to "calm him down" and steady him, then when I say out he eases up as he gets high in drive. But while I talk to him and hold him like that we are able to get him to out. It isn't easy. When I get ready to teach him to out we will use a different method (which will be a pinch collar on a seperate line). I have never been interested in fake scererio training for field work. I believe a PP dog should be that. After all, this is a PP forum, not a sport forum.


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## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Multiple e-collars*



Lee Robinson said:


> Not only have a heard about *edit* using 3 or 4 e-collars on a dog, but there is a picture out there somewhere of it. He had two on the neck and 2 on the waste of the dog. In each location one was on the top and one was on the bottom. It was the craziest thing I have seen in "dog training."
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> It probably is the "craziest thing you've seen", given your lack of exposure to any kind of real trainers and training.
> 
> Multiple e-collars are (was) a common practice in NVBK.
> They are used for direction NOT power. Bart Bellon is the best known user of mutiple e-collars and he won the World Championship a couple of years ago.
> 
> It's amusing that you are getting the exact same responses from different people in this list that I gave you on the Donovan list. It is also amusing that you are reacting the same way by, making excuses and off topic attacks attempting to divert attention from the obvious poor handling, novice decoy work and lack of control (out) and commitment from the dog.
> 
> 
> It would be SAD if you are allowed to continue to pollute this board with your nonsense like you have so many others.
> Hopefully their is more active moderation and control here.
> 
> To the rest of the board members: I know Kyle, I've worked dogs with him a few times. He is a talented and committed trainer. I'd let him work my dogs any day. He also speaks the truth about Lee Robinson
> 
> 
> Regards
> Thomas Barriano
> 
> and lack of control from the dog


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## Dan Long

Kyle Sprag said:


> I can't speak as to what was trying to be done in the pics but it looks to me like the dog is simply being choked off the bite rather that being told to let go or (Out). IMO this is not training the handler has not trained the dog to out or he doesn't care if the dog outs.
> 
> I know some PDs who choose this approach because they don't want the dog to ever come off the bite for any reason until the suspect is in cuffed up. Less chance of the dog getting confused and Outing when it should not. At least this is how it was explained to me and I can see the point with PSD as well as someone's PPD.


Maybe some of the K9 handlers can comment, but I thought they don't give out commands is because if the dog doesn't out, they might have more liability towards the injured suspect. You pretty much know that a suspect is going to sue for being bit, and if the dog doesn't out, they'll go into court and try and prove the dog is poorly trained - "He was telling his dog to out and he wouldn't let go of me! That dog shouldn't be on the street!" That sort of crap...


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## David Frost

Dan, from a PSD perspective, all the major certification agencies require a hands-off out. If you go to the Terry Fleck legal update website, you'll see that is considered the "industry standard". There are however, those that use the tactical out. In a tactical out, the handler will have physical control of the dog before calling it off the subject. It's justs that, used in different circumstances for different types of subjects. That, in my opinion as a police trainer, does not negate the neccessity for an out. Having said all that we also have to look at the reality of the situation. Regardless of how you train, you do not replicate the emotion, the adrenelin, the commotion and just the all out energy of an actual situation and an actual fight with a subject. In my experience, the harder the subject fights, the harder it is for that "bomb proof" out to work. 

DFrost


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## Lee Robinson

Thomas, your are correct in that KS's justification was to "provide direction." I didn't say it was for force. But, 4 is just ridiculous. 

Also, Thomas, please tell the readers of this forum how your dog was ran off a field in a PSA trial. I am sure they would enjoy the story.

** URL deleted **


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## Lee Robinson

David Frost said:


> Dan, from a PSD perspective, all the major certification agencies require a hands-off out. If you go to the Terry Fleck legal update website, you'll see that is considered the "industry standard". There are however, those that use the tactical out. In a tactical out, the handler will have physical control of the dog before calling it off the subject. It's justs that, used in different circumstances for different types of subjects. That, in my opinion as a police trainer, does not negate the neccessity for an out. Having said all that we also have to look at the reality of the situation. Regardless of how you train, you do not replicate the emotion, the adrenelin, the commotion and just the all out energy of an actual situation and an actual fight with a subject. In my experience, the harder the subject fights, the harder it is for that "bomb proof" out to work.
> 
> DFrost


Good post. I would agree with what you wrote; however, it isn't that we are using a "tactical out" although it certainly is similiar. Our situation was just the matter of the dog not yet being taught the out. I asked the decoy if he wanted to slip the jacket, but he didn't as we were going to do more work and he had it buckled on. So, we did the out as seen. I perfer a dog to know what "OUT" means...we just haven't yet trained Preacher that. I have a lot of dogs. It will happen.


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## Candy Eggert

Mike Schieber and Kyle S......do you believe in reincarnation?!?!? I think Emillo is back 

Be careful who you miss!! Let the games begin ;-)


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## Dan Long

David Frost said:


> Dan, from a PSD perspective, all the major certification agencies require a hands-off out. If you go to the Terry Fleck legal update website, you'll see that is considered the "industry standard". There are however, those that use the tactical out. In a tactical out, the handler will have physical control of the dog before calling it off the subject. It's justs that, used in different circumstances for different types of subjects. That, in my opinion as a police trainer, does not negate the neccessity for an out. Having said all that we also have to look at the reality of the situation. Regardless of how you train, you do not replicate the emotion, the adrenelin, the commotion and just the all out energy of an actual situation and an actual fight with a subject. In my experience, the harder the subject fights, the harder it is for that "bomb proof" out to work.
> 
> DFrost


Thanks for that info David, and it makes perfect sense. If it were me, and a subject was continuing to fight, there wouldn't be any out command issued at all, let the dog do his job.


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## Chris McDonald

Also, Thomas, please tell the readers of this forum how your dog was ran off a field in a PSA trial. I am sure they would enjoy the story.

** URL deleted **[/quote]

Dude your digging now in desperation.. I am sure everyone who has spent time with dogs has had them do something such as run off a field. I don’t know if it makes someone a bad trainer. In your case the less you type and the less pictures you post the better you will look. If you are going to bring up a screw up for everyone who has played with dogs your gona be busy


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Thomas, your are correct in that KS's justification was to "provide direction." I didn't say it was for force. But, 4 is just ridiculous.
> 
> Also, Thomas, please tell the readers of this forum how your dog was ran off a field in a PSA trial. I am sure they would enjoy the story.
> 
> ** URL deleted **


Again, that tha is NOT true, I WAS THERE, it was at MY TRIAL! As for the 4 collar thing that is also not true, I have used a e-collar on the Neck and Hip Never at the same time!


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> *mod edit*
> 
> It was the craziest thing I have seen in "dog training."
> 
> As far as my dog, KS states he is supposed to be a finished dog. [-X I have never claimed Preacher to be a finished dog...in fact he isn't even a trained dog, so I don't know where he pulled that one from. Preacher is however a serious dogthat took to PP work naturally and one a criminal would not want to cross paths with. The bite in the last pictures where he is on the bottom of the coat is the same bite where he hit the stomach...but I am trying to get him off. Preacher has not been trained to out and he hadn't been worked in about a year so we were brushing up on his work. I believe a PP dog should be able to bite without the decoy making a presentation. His out will come later. As of now, I hold him like that to "calm him down" and steady him, then when I say out he eases up as he gets high in drive. But while I talk to him and hold him like that we are able to get him to out. It isn't easy. When I get ready to teach him to out we will use a different method (which will be a pinch collar on a seperate line). I have never been interested in fake scererio training for field work. I believe a PP dog should be that. After all, this is a PP forum, not a sport forum.


 
Wouldn't it be the responsible thing to do is TRAIN and FINISH a dog to see how it turns out before you BREED IT! How many times have you bred this dog already?


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## Max Orsi

"Also, Thomas, please tell the readers of this forum how your dog was ran off a field in a PSA trial. I am sure they would enjoy the story"

I don’t know you or your dogs and don’t care to, but calling someone out on a trial failure, when on your web page you and your dogs list no accomplishment, is very sad.

It takes time and dedication to train, trial and title dogs.

How about you tell us some of yours and your mutts successful training and trial stories to prove your point???

Max Orsi


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## Howard Gaines III

My this is interesting!!!Dan has good points here and David has strong points as well. The title "alternate bit locations" had me fooled. I was thing Mc Donald's or something like that as a location. I desire a break today! :-o

Max your point is true. Doesn't matter if you pass or fail, are you still trying to improve your craft? If I failed at everything I ever did, I would sit at home an be a do nothing. Other bite locations...


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## Lee Robinson

Max,

We have dogs in the hands of some of the best trainers in the country. Not sport people...but professionals that actually make a living in protection dog patrol. We have dogs that are CURRENTLY on duty 24/7 successfully patroling areas where many previous "protection" (sport titled) dogs have failed. If you, or anyone else, would like referrences to these people you can contact me and I will provide you with their contact information where you can contact them should you desire to do so...without my intervention.

I have no desire to talk trash about Thomas's or KS's failures on the sport field, but if they wish for me to "be nice conversation" then they too will have to have some respect. Respect is a two way street. If someone is going to throw stones, then they need to be sure not to live in a glass house.

KS, responsible thing to do is to know one's limitations. I have always stated I am a breeder first (I like evaluating what a dog is at a much more "raw" state genetically) and a trainer second...and I like it when a dog is so easy to train that you don't need the best trainers in the world to get the job done. This genetic predisposition is important in a breeding program. Well over 90% of the trainers out there know nothing on breeding. If you have no interest in my program or my dogs, that is fine...then we both can move on. But, if you do have an interest and would like to see what these dogs will do despite "bad training" (as you put it), then you are welcome to arrange an evaluation to see how well the dogs perform. Certainly they would be even better if their training was good, right? The bites are full and the commitment is there. 

So, we have our differences...no doubt, but we are both human and we should both be able to put our differences aside and be able to acknowledge and respect the commitment both of us have put forth...and I would be willing to bet that if we met, despite our "many issues" that we have had on the internet that we would get along. Now, you might disagree on this forum...but it is still what I believe because in REAL LIFE...I have VERY VERY FEW enemies in the dog world...and get along with almost anyone.


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## Howard Gaines III

Well done! Now about these bite locations guys???


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## Kyle Sprag

No, I think the "responsible" thing to do is to STOP LYING about people and Blabbering on about what you don't know.


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## Max Orsi

Lee,

I was born 43 years ago, not the day before yesterday.

I like people statement to be backed by facts and evidence.

"We have dogs that are CURRENTLY on duty 24/7 successfully patroling areas where many previous "protection" (sport titled) dogs have failed"

Your "real" dogs and "best" trainers should have no problems passing a sport trial...
...let me know when you have something to talk about.

Max


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## Adam Rawlings

Kyle,

No offence, but your first post on this thread was what started this whole thing off and since then you both have been acting like little kids. Lee has stated he is done arguing, so can it not be left at that? 

Normally, I would just ignore these posts and the stupidity, but I'm actually interested in the training aspect of this topic.


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## Kyle Sprag

Adam Rawlings said:


> Kyle,
> 
> No offence, but your first post on this thread was what started this whole thing off and since then you both have been acting like little kids. Lee has stated he is done arguing, so can it not be left at that?
> 
> Normally, I would just ignore these posts and the stupidity, but I'm actually interested in the training aspect of this topic.


 
Offense taken, I posted an opinion on the pictures that show Piss Poor and unsafe work PERIOD! That WAS the subject.

Like I wrote before, I don't care what someone thinks or believes about my opinion but WILL NOT roll over and let someone post blatent LIES about Me, others and what I have done!

If you are interested in the "training aspect" of this thread Here is a TIP!

this is a Great example of what NOT TO DO! LOL


BTW good luck with your new GSD pup.


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## Connie Sutherland

If the thread cannot have training rather than a flame war as the topic, then it'll be closed.


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## Thomas Barriano

HI Max,

I'll be more than happy to tell anyone what happened at the PSA trial (2/04) My female Dobermann Dubheasa was trying for a PDC. On the attack on handler (from the back) she missed the initial grip (this was in a bite suit, I could have asked for an arm presentation but didn't ,My BAD) The decoy attacked at full speed and continued at full speed, driving and kneeing her until the judge blew his whistle. She never stopped trying to bite and she never ran off the field at this or any other trial in any sport[. This "request" from Harold LEEtle Man Robinson is typical, as most of you know (or will soon realize)
He talks the talk, but can't back it up with any real experience.
Instead when he is asked to justify or explain the nonsense he posts. His only option is to try to divert attention with nonsense
like KS and my own trial experience. It is amusing for someone that has never titled any dog in any sport (FYI no one else has ever titled a Swinford in anything) to criticise an occasional failure. You never try/trial and you don't have to worry about failing. As Kyle mentioned, he was actually at the trial and saw what happened in person, unlike Lee who wasn't there and hasn't even seen a video

Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) CGC


QUOTE=Max Orsi;129127]"Also, Thomas, please tell the readers of this forum how your dog was ran off a field in a PSA trial. I am sure they would enjoy the story"

I don’t know you or your dogs and don’t care to, but calling someone out on a trial failure, when on your web page you and your dogs list no accomplishment, is very sad.

It takes time and dedication to train, trial and title dogs.

How about you tell us some of yours and your mutts successful training and trial stories to prove your point???

Max Orsi[/QUOTE]


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I guess as long as Scheiber is happy with Emilio, I vote for him to stay on the island.

I actually tried to help this guy once on another board after he asked for advice. Then he wanted to argue with me. 

I don't get the whole "sport" as an insult thing. I find it amusing that this is what "they" not just Lee turn to when we ask why the dog just cannot out and do the ****ing job. But then again, some of actually KNOW what happens to those dog when control is asked for. This does not just pertain to Lee and his dogs.

Kyle is out there with his dogs trialing and spending time, money, and putting it out there. I may argue with him, and tease him, but he is OUT THERE DOING IT.

Until the "real dog" people show that their dogs can title as it is just soooooooo ****ing easy, they can all just bite me.


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## Chris McDonald

Howard Gaines III said:


> My this is interesting!!!Dan has good points here and David has strong points as well. The title "alternate bit locations" had me fooled. I was thing Mc Donald's or something like that as a location. I desire a break today! :-o
> 
> I was thinking I was going to see some crotch shots. After I saw that face biting dog video floating around I don’t think there is any alternative locations left on a human. I certainly don’t think the back of the arm of bottom of a jacket to be alternative.


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## Chris McDonald

[quote
But then again, some of actually KNOW what happens to those dog when control is asked for. This does not just pertain to Lee and his dogs.

I don’t know what happens when control is asked for.. what happens? Fill me in


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## Kyle Sprag

Chris McDonald said:


> [quote
> But then again, some of actually KNOW what happens to those dog when control is asked for. This does not just pertain to Lee and his dogs.
> 
> I don’t know what happens when control is asked for.. what happens? Fill me in


With control there is always a sacrafice, many dogs are monsters until control is added. Control can break down a dog and expose underlying weakness.


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## Kyle Sprag

I have no problems with you Jeff, just fun to yank your chain now and then. I do believe you know what is going on.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I do, I have seen this guy infest boards before. Just remember that you are out there doing your thing, and he is posting pics of dogs in his backyard.........doing poorly.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff.

Where are you at now?
Lee claims Dubheasa was a cur and was run off the field at a
PDC test in 04. Since you actually worked her a dozen or more times, what is your opinion? 

Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) CGC





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I do, I have seen this guy infest boards before. Just remember that you are out there doing your thing, and he is posting pics of dogs in his backyard.........doing poorly.


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## Barrie Kirkland

gees i just caught up with this thread. Purely taking the pics on the face value of that moment caught, the dog looks inexperienced & the decoy is def inexperienced 

and the slanging match after the first post make up for the pictures haha


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## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> With control there is always a sacrafice, many dogs are monsters until control is added. Control can break down a dog and expose underlying weakness.


 
Got it, so maybe Lee does not want to lose the monster in the dog?


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## Kyle Sprag

Chris McDonald said:


> Got it, so maybe Lee does not want to lose the monster in the dog?


Maybe......LMAO!!!!!!!!!! the monster has to be in the dog to begin with...........LMAO! :-#


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## Lee Robinson

You didn't tell the whole truth Thomas. Your dog was driven 20 feet and never bit. She was fleeing the entire time...and acting evasively. THAT is why the judge called a "timed out" for the session. Anymore driving the dog off the field would be detrimental to the dog's future work. Once a weakness is shown, the session is over...as to prevent damaging the dog's potential. How far is the decoy supposed to drive the dog? And, what is wrong with kneeing a dog? A PP dog should be able to deal with that. 

From here, let's stop the arguing nonsense and get back to the topic.

Notice the picture of Preacher biting the belly? The dog is ON HIS BACK LEGS prior to the bite...and the decoy tries to knee the dog. When teaching a dog to target the legs, a decoy would wait until the dog was back on all four so he would be at "leg level." Despite this, what does Preacher do? He bites center mass...which happens to be the stomach...but he bites, and takes control of the situation. He is not evasive. That is what a PP dog is supposed to do...confront and stop the threat..."trained" or "not"...no matter what. "Bad training" or not...it doesn't matter. The dog did what it should do...confront and bite the attacker. Now, if the training is "bad" and the dog performed...then the genetics must be good, no?  Have a nice day.


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## Chris McDonald

Lee Robinson said:


> You didn't tell the whole truth Thomas. Your dog was driven 20 feet and never bit. She was fleeing the entire time...and acting evasively. THAT is why the judge called a "timed out" for the session. Anymore driving the dog off the field would be detrimental to the dog's future work. Once a weakness is shown, the session is over...as to prevent damaging the dog's potential. How far is the decoy supposed to drive the dog? And, what is wrong with kneeing a dog? A PP dog should be able to deal with that.
> 
> From here, let's stop the arguing nonsense and get back to the topic.
> 
> Notice the picture of Preacher biting the belly? The dog is ON HIS BACK LEGS prior to the bite...and the decoy tries to knee the dog. When teaching a dog to target the legs, a decoy would wait until the dog was back on all four so he would be at "leg level." Despite this, what does Preacher do? He bites center mass...which happens to be the stomach...but he bites, and takes control of the situation. He is not evasive. That is what a PP dog is supposed to do...confront and stop the threat..."trained" or "not"...no matter what. "Bad training" or not...it doesn't matter. The dog did what it should do...confront and bite the attacker. Now, if the training is "bad" and the dog performed...then the genetics must be good, no?  Have a nice day.


Man I’m tired of going in circles.


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> You didn't tell the whole truth Thomas. Your dog was driven 20 feet and never bit. She was fleeing the entire time...and acting evasively. THAT is why the judge called a "timed out" for the session. Anymore driving the dog off the field would be detrimental to the dog's future work. Once a weakness is shown, the session is over...as to prevent damaging the dog's potential. How far is the decoy supposed to drive the dog? And, what is wrong with kneeing a dog? A PP dog should be able to deal with that.
> 
> From here, let's stop the arguing nonsense and get back to the topic.
> 
> Notice the picture of Preacher biting the belly? The dog is ON HIS BACK LEGS prior to the bite...and the decoy tries to knee the dog. When teaching a dog to target the legs, a decoy would wait until the dog was back on all four so he would be at "leg level." Despite this, what does Preacher do? He bites center mass...which happens to be the stomach...but he bites, and takes control of the situation. He is not evasive. That is what a PP dog is supposed to do...confront and stop the threat..."trained" or "not"...no matter what. "Bad training" or not...it doesn't matter. The dog did what it should do...confront and bite the attacker. Now, if the training is "bad" and the dog performed...then the genetics must be good, no?  Have a nice day.


 
More Lies that is not what happened, let me remind you I WAS there! The dog was a Sch III dog looking for a target, in hindsight Thomas said he should have asked for a forearm presentation, he did not. This was his first time seeing a trial and was the exercises look like. The PDC has been changed quite a bit from what it use to be because of things like this.

Stop Flinging shit everywhere to distract from your Pitifull pictures.


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## Lee Robinson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I guess as long as Scheiber is happy with Emilio, I vote for him to stay on the island.
> 
> I actually tried to help this guy once on another board after he asked for advice. Then he wanted to argue with me.
> 
> I don't get the whole "sport" as an insult thing. I find it amusing that this is what "they" not just Lee turn to when we ask why the dog just cannot out and do the ****ing job. But then again, some of actually KNOW what happens to those dog when control is asked for. This does not just pertain to Lee and his dogs.
> 
> Kyle is out there with his dogs trialing and spending time, money, and putting it out there. I may argue with him, and tease him, but he is OUT THERE DOING IT.
> 
> Until the "real dog" people show that their dogs can title as it is just soooooooo ****ing easy, they can all just bite me.



Jeff,

I don't recall what you are talking about. If you would like to discuss it, you will have to fill me on the conversation. I don't know what you would mean by "ask why the dog just cannout out and do the blanking job?" You would need to be more specific.

On a second note, I have NEVER said titling a dog in a sport is easy. It takes a lot of training and control...but most sports are still just a game. Nothing wrong with calling them what they are...but that doesn't mean it is "easy." But, games are just not something I am into. Life is limiting in time. We have to pick priorities. My priorities are God, my family, my job, my dogs. Among these is a degree of responsibility and independence. I feel that training a dog for PP work is practical. Sports, although they can be challenging and demanding, I don't find a lot of practical aspects to them. That doesn't mean they can't be, because they certainly can be should one wish to do so. However, we both know that sports and PP are not the same thing. And, this is a PP catagory is it not? IMO, sports test a trainer more than they do the dog. I have seen some SchH I dogs that would be great PP dogs, then I have also seen some SchH III dogs that were not so great...and that is ironic to a PP person since "Schutzhund" at one time actually meant protection dog. It has changed.


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## Lee Robinson

PDC means "protection dog certificate" does it not?

Is a criminal supposed to "present an arm bite?"

What are you going to do in real life? Say, hey, you can't mug me unless you follow the rules of K9 sports? Is a criminal supposed to say, "OK, here is my arm? Let me stand here and let the dog bite, and then when he bites I will let him win."

A PP dog is supposed to FIND a bite, no matter what. After all...it is supposed to be a "Protection Dog Certificate."


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I guess as long as Scheiber is happy with Emilio, I vote for him to stay on the island.
> 
> I actually tried to help this guy once on another board after he asked for advice. Then he wanted to argue with me.
> 
> I don't get the whole "sport" as an insult thing. I find it amusing that this is what "they" not just Lee turn to when we ask why the dog just cannot out and do the ****ing job. But then again, some of actually KNOW what happens to those dog when control is asked for. This does not just pertain to Lee and his dogs.
> 
> Kyle is out there with his dogs trialing and spending time, money, and putting it out there. I may argue with him, and tease him, but he is OUT THERE DOING IT.
> 
> Until the "real dog" people show that their dogs can title as it is just soooooooo ****ing easy, they can all just bite me.


Meh keeper for sure:mrgreen:


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## Chris McDonald

Lee Robinson said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I don't recall what you are talking about. If you would like to discuss it, you will have to fill me on the conversation. I don't know what you would mean by "ask why the dog just cannout out and do the blanking job?" You would need to be more specific.
> 
> On a second note, I have NEVER said titling a dog in a sport is easy. It takes a lot of training and control...but most sports are still just a game. Nothing wrong with calling them what they are...but that doesn't mean it is "easy." But, games are just not something I am into. Life is limiting in time. We have to pick priorities. My priorities are God, my family, my job, my dogs. Among these is a degree of responsibility and independence. I feel that training a dog for PP work is practical. Sports, although they can be challenging and demanding, I don't find a lot of practical aspects to them. That doesn't mean they can't be, because they certainly can be should one wish to do so. However, we both know that sports and PP are not the same thing. And, this is a PP catagory is it not? IMO, sports test a trainer more than they do the dog. I have seen some SchH I dogs that would be great PP dogs, then I have also seen some SchH III dogs that were not so great...and that is ironic to a PP person since "Schutzhund" at one time actually meant protection dog. It has changed.


And around and around and around. Blablabla. Teachers always drove me f-n nuts.


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## Barrie Kirkland

you must be a K9 pro sports kind of guy, and every picture you guys post is with sleeves.

bad guys dont run away with sleeves, suits etc have their place in bite development etc however i have never seen any footage of you guys doing civil work

plus we all know these bandogs cant hold a light to a good herder


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## Lee Robinson

Kyle Sprag said:


> More Lies that is not what happened, let me remind you I WAS there! The dog was a Sch III dog looking for a target, in hindsight Thomas said he should have asked for a forearm presentation, he did not. This was his first time seeing a trial and was the exercises look like. The PDC has been changed quite a bit from what it use to be because of things like this.
> 
> Stop Flinging shit everywhere to distract from your Pitifull pictures.


Here is what Thomas himself wrote about what happened...and I quote...

_"Dubheasa was five at the time. She reacted to the attack and spun around to engage the decoy. She missed the first grip and was being driven/ kneed by the decoy for the next 10-20 feet before the judge ended the exercise. She didn't run, she didn't cur, she wasn't slow."_

Like me or not, all objective people now you and I both know why a judge calls a timed out when a dog is unengaged.


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> PDC means "protection dog certificate" does it not?
> 
> Is a criminal supposed to "present an arm bite?"
> 
> What are you going to do in real life? Say, hey, you can't mug me unless you follow the rules of K9 sports? Is a criminal supposed to say, "OK, here is my arm? Let me stand here and let the dog bite, and then when he bites I will let him win."
> 
> A PP dog is supposed to FIND a bite, no matter what. After all...it is supposed to be a "Protection Dog Certificate."


Do you need an answer to your stupid crap?

Dogs are trained, a Sch dog can't just go around bitting the Helper anywhere he/she/it damn well pleases. If a dog has been trained for 5 years to look for certain things shit can go wrong.

There are RULES in dog sports, trainers must train within the RULES.

BTW your Pictures are still Pitifull! :-\"


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## Lee Robinson

Barrie Kirkland said:


> you must be a K9 pro sports kind of guy, and every picture you guys post is with sleeves.
> 
> bad guys dont run away with sleeves, suits etc have their place in bite development etc however i have never seen any footage of you guys doing civil work
> 
> plus we all know these bandogs cant hold a light to a good herder


Civil work would be our specialty. What would you like to see?


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## Barrie Kirkland

i honestly believe and plz PP people dont lambast me... that some individuals just label their dogs as PP as its an easy way to cover up their lack of control


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## Lee Robinson

Kyle Sprag said:


> Do you need an answer to your stupid crap?
> 
> Dogs are trained, a Sch dog can't just go around bitting the Helper anywhere he/she/it damn well pleases. If a dog has been trained for 5 years to look for certain things shit can go wrong.
> 
> There are RULES in dog sports, trainers must train within the RULES.
> 
> BTW your Pictures are still Pitifull! :-\"


So, in real life...when a criminal attacks, are they too supposed to follow "Protection Dog Certificate" rules? :roll:


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## Barrie Kirkland

Lee Robinson said:


> Civil work would be our specialty. What would you like to see?



nothing really, im just saying i only every see pictures of that guy with the moustache working "real dogs" with sleeves


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Here is what Thomas himself wrote about what happened...and I quote...
> 
> _"Dubheasa was five at the time. She reacted to the attack and spun around to engage the decoy. She missed the first grip and was being driven/ kneed by the decoy for the next 10-20 feet before the judge ended the exercise. She didn't run, she didn't cur, she wasn't slow."_
> 
> Like me or not, all objective people now you and I both know why a judge calls a timed out when a dog is unengaged.


 
Not sure what your sick mind thinks is so much different from what I wrote, Again I WAS THERE! I have WORKED this dog on more than one occasion. In fact I would say she was More a PP type candidate much more than a sporty type of dog, quite a nice Civil B!tch.


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## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Truth*

Lee, 

We can stop arguing when you start telling the truth. You have no idea what happened, because you weren't there. You haven't seen any video and haven't talked to anyone that was.
Kyle was there and will verify exactly what I've said.
The original topic was the still pictures you posted. Several people, on at least two lists have pointed out the poor handling,
novice decoy work and unsafe attire. You get defensive, start making excuses and then start with personal attacks and lies and distortion. This is SOP for you for over five years. You talk and talk, but your dogs are never tested at a trial and rarely if ever, leave the safety of your backyard. All your pictures are of dogs working on leash or back tied and worked in defense. All the experienced handler/trainers (sport, PP, or
Military/Police) know it is easy to make a dog look good enough for a still picture or one when the dog has the security
of a short leash. Since you're bringing stuff from the Donovan list over here. Why don't you explain about your challenge that
if I came to your place and picked $100 off the ground in front of your Dog Preacher Man you'd pay my expenses. You can even repost your smack talk about how "I'd be begging you to pull him off me" how I'd be crying in pain and how you'd post the video all over the internet? Then explain how you started back pedaling and making excuses, when I counter offered to meet your challenge if you put up some serious money ($2k)
Nobody is going to travel 2200 miles for $100

Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) CGC



Lee Robinson said:


> You didn't tell the whole truth
> 
> 
> 
> Thomas. Your dog was driven 20 feet and never bit. She was fleeing the entire time...and acting evasively. THAT is why the judge called a "timed out" for the session. Anymore driving the dog off the field would be detrimental to the dog's future work. Once a weakness is shown, the session is over...as to prevent damaging the dog's potential. How far is the decoy supposed to drive the dog? And, what is wrong with kneeing a dog? A PP dog should be able to deal with that.
> 
> From here, let's stop the arguing nonsense and get back to the topic.


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> So, in real life...when a criminal attacks, are they too supposed to follow "Protection Dog Certificate" rules? :roll:


 
Sure Lee you hand them a list of instructions, that is ASSuming they can Read!


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## Chris McDonald

Since everyone is listing there’s, below is a list on my dog related accomplishments.


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## Barrie Kirkland

*Re: Truth*

oh i forgot to add, that you brought up regarding the targetting of anywhere on the decoy. Well tbh the dog should be taught to target areas to disable the quickest, hence inner & outer arm 

your dog just caught the jacket thats not much use, what if the decoy slipped the jacket... would he redirect on the man......... he should be taught to release the jacket/ sleeve watever and come back on the man. 

my spaniel can take a better suit bite than your dog


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## David Frost

*Re: Truth*

If you can't stop the personal attacks, there is just no sense in allowing this to continue.

DFrost


----------

