# Decoy wants to mess up dog



## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Has anyone ever been in a trial or a club situation where you felt a suspicion that the decoy working your dog is pushing it too hard on purpose? Remember it's happening in the middle of agitation where everything is going very fast. How did you handle it?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Has anyone ever been in a trial or a club situation where you felt a suspicion that the decoy working your dog is pushing it too hard on purpose? Remember it's happening in the middle of agitation where everything is going very fast. How did you handle it?


In a trial the decoy is supposed to push the dog as hard as he can, it is called a test. In training that is a different thing all together, but I suspect the reason a decoy would push your dog too hard in training is because you had picked a fight for your dog.
As a training decoy I would never push a dog past his limits and abilities unless the poor dogs owner is constantly talking about how tough his dogs is and real he is , etc........in rare cases then I have pushed a little too far just to show the silly owner that yes, his dog can be ran.
As a testing decoy or trial decoy I would never take it easy on a dog in the trial, every dog will be tested to the best of my abilities as a decoy. As far as I am conserned in a trial, your job is to prepare your dog, my job is to run him off the field, or work him hard so the judge can see how tough he is.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The helper is required to work each trial dog with equal pressure. If that's not done then it's up to the judge to see it. If not, your probably out of luck.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you feel that the work was done unfairly for the level you are trialing, you can file a formal complaint to the judge, and the orginization that you belong to.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> in rare cases then I have pushed a little too far just to show the silly owner that yes, his dog can be ran.


That's the only thing I was talking about. Now take that feeling and apply it to a good dog that someone wants to break for whatever reason, ego, to promote another dog, whatever.. In such a time if I was the owner I wouldn't really care about the decoys perspective on it, I'd be pretty pissed off. I'm asking if anyone had that happen to them and how did you handle it as it was happening.


Bob Scott said:


> The helper is required to work each trial dog with equal pressure. If that's not done then it's up to the judge to see it. If not, your probably out of luck.


Yeah Bob, that's it too but it can happen in less formal surroundings. And of luck is pretty lame.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Emilio, if you are going to quote me, then quote my entire sentence, not just 1/2 of it. What I was saying was.....
IF the dogs owner was picking a fight for his dog and talking about how tough and how real the dog is, then I may push the dog a little too far just to make sure the owner can see that his dog can indeed be ran.
Even if I hated the owner and the dog I would not run him in training unless the owner was convinced that it could not happen.
Now assuming you did not pick a fight for the dog, and the decoy was just being a prick, then I would make him stop, give the dog a sucessful end and put the dog away and have a serious talk with the decoy.
That is about all you can do at that moment.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Now assuming you did not pick a fight for the dog, and the decoy was just being a prick, then I would make him stop, give the dog a sucessful end and put the dog away and have a serious talk with the decoy.
> That is about all you can do at that moment.


Thanks for the answer. For the second part; how would you stop him exactly? Yell at him, what?


mike suttle said:


> IF the dogs owner was picking a fight for his dog and talking about how tough and how real the dog is, then I may push the dog a little too far


Beautiful, how would you do it? How would you put just the right amount of extra pressure on him?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In a "less formal" setting without a judge it's between you and the helper. Then you better have a few people that agree with you if you don't want to be labled a trouble maker.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

So since I've never been to trials and the only club I ever went to they didn't want to work my dog my question is, is this a common thing that happens? This is one of the reasons I'm reluctant to go to a trial. I like to work my dog only with decoys I know.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If your talking about a Schutzhund clulb I can understand the reluctance to work your dogs if they've had no Schutzhund training. 
We get a number of people each year that show up with their "PPD trained" dogs. Most just want to show off their "badass" dogs. If they try and feed us a buncch of BS about the dog our TD/Helper has no problem running the dogs. I've only seen one PPD trained dog that held it's ground and that was a Pit. :-o 
I'm absolutely not putting you in this category because I don't know you. 
Just saying what normally happens when someone comes with a PPD. Seems most of them have an ego bigger then their dog can live up to.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Man, thanks for telling me that. I didn't know that was common.

As far as running the dog; what kind of things would the decoy do that the dog couldn't counter? I mean first if all was going well for the PD team the dog might just as well go to the legs so it wouldn't be fair to the decoy in the first place. But let's say it was a good civil dog and at the same time a clean dog on the bite, what would the decoy do? Present the sleeve bad? Poke him in the face with the stick?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Man, thanks for telling me that. I didn't know that was common.
> 
> As far as running the dog; what kind of things would the decoy do that the dog couldn't counter? I mean first if all was going well for the PD team the dog might just as well go to the legs so it wouldn't be fair to the decoy in the first place. But let's say it was a good civil dog and at the same time a clean dog on the bite, what would the decoy do? Present the sleeve bad? Poke him in the face with the stick?


Grease the steps on the front porch, switch the leash from a a 6 ft to an 8 ft, the possibilities are endless.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Are you just fishing or did something happen?

Sorry, but this is a weird post.

Most helpers I've know wouldn't work a dog without first seeing OB. Then it's still a maybe. What is the point of a PPD showing up once to "Work the Dog".


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Not sure what you mean by fishing but nothing happened. If it was a green/potential ppd showing up as you put it, it could be because there was nowhere else the owner could find to train their dog in protection. That's the only reason I'd go, or have gone the couple of times I did. There's no recourse for a protection dog owner but to go to a professional trainer. Many people can't afford that, I know because I did it professionally. To do it right takes so much smaller increments than what you could justify paying a professional dog trainer for. This is why I'd like to have a protection dog club where I live. Thing is it takes more than once a week so few potential members LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We all talk about there being few "real" dogs today. 
Most dogs can be run with nothing more then a confident "presence". Hard to describe that but most good dog helpers understand. 
I've talked about it before with my dog. He's super nasty in the car (barrier aggression) The ones at club that he knows and have the confidence/presence can easily go in my car. Not with intimidation but with that "confidence/presence".
Our TD is 360 lbs and can just walk up on most of there "badass" dogs and present a visual threat. Most usually wind up behind the handlers. 
This is where most PPD dogs fail (IMHO). Press them far enough and often enough and they will start forward defence out of the old "I gotta bite them before they hurt me" attitude. Again not uncommon in MANY PPD type dogs. That looks imprressive to those that don't know what they're looking at.
If the dog truely is a strong, civil and a trained PPD then a bad sleeve presintation or a cheap stick hit shouldn't discourage it. 
If it runs, then the dog is either weak or it needs more/better training.
Again, This is not to describe what you do. I don't know you or your dogs. It's Just what I often see.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Not sure what you mean by fishing but nothing happened. If it was a green/potential ppd showing up as you put it, it could be because there was nowhere else the owner could find to train their dog in protection. That's the only reason I'd go, or have gone the couple of times I did.


Fishing, as it it didn't happen but what if?

That's exactly why most I've know will not work the dog, what's the point of working a dog that you will never see again. I dout it does the dog any good. Join a club and show up if you want someone to risk themselves to work your dog. That's why many helpers want to at least see OB, to see if the dog is a out of control hazard or not.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

We have a user by the name of Jiminy Cricket reading this thread







JeffO, was your previous user name Geppetto? Or was it Jerry Lyda?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good obedience MUST be the foundation for any bite sport!
Without it you have nothing but a junk yard dog.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

You kidding me Bob? What about a PD? You know what happens if that were to go bad?

I understand your perspective Edgar, I wouldn't work the dog either. In the club I'd like to have everyone takes bites. So if you come to the club and you want your dog to take a bite you have to give a bite. Understandably some people don't have the skills but they can serve as dummies for the experienced dogs. Or at least participate in agitation scenarios.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> You kidding me Bob? What about a PD? You know what happens if that were to go bad?
> 
> I understand your perspective Edgar, I wouldn't work the dog either. In the club I'd like to have everyone takes bites. So if you come to the club and you want your dog to take a bite you have to give a bite. Understandably some people don't have the skills but they can serve as dummies for the experienced dogs. Or at least participate in agitation scenarios.


 
Are you tipping them back tonight or what?


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Of course









Bob Scott said:


> We all talk about there being few "real" dogs today.
> Most dogs can be run with nothing more then a confident "presence". Hard to describe that but most good dog helpers understand.
> I've talked about it before with my dog. He's super nasty in the car (barrier aggression) The ones at club that he knows and have the confidence/presence can easily go in my car. Not with intimidation but with that "confidence/presence".
> Our TD is 360 lbs and can just walk up on most of there "badass" dogs and present a visual threat. Most usually wind up behind the handlers.
> ...


Thanks Bob, this post gave me a good understanding of what goes on.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think honesty is the best policy here. If someone makes out their dog is a badass and it isn't, they're only going to harm the dog AND their ego.

As others have said, what is the point of just going to a club to a decoy you don't know? If, and this is a big if, the decoy is willing to work your dog and if he is a good decoy, he will ask you what you have done with it in terms of bitework. He will then usually, disregarding the amount of bitework the dog has done, do one or two bites on the line. An experienced helper can see then if you've described the work accurately. He may want to know what your intentions are for further training.

It's up to the dog owner to watch the decoy work the club members' dogs, decide whether he wants to let his dog have a bite or not, if the offer comes. 

The next question could now be how can you tell a good decoy from a bad one. For me the first lesson would be "how is he as a human being? " Some of the good decoys are not fitted out with pretty manners - you have to see past this but usually you can sort out the wheat from the chaff by just talking to him. 

A dedicated decoy will never intentionally harm a dog!! Even to teach someone a lesson. He might have a bit of fun "showing up the handler" afterwards and this is sweet revenge!!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Emilio, At training not trial, you want to know how far your dog can be pushed. If he runs the decoy went too far. The decoy should work the dog to a point and then let him WIN. No need to mess with a possible good dog. As Bob said most all dogs can be run. Maybe not in real life because the bad guy will be calling for his Mama. A decoy is protectd and can put a lot of pressure on a dog.

At a trial. The decoys ( in our group ) can only put so much pressure on the dog depending on the level that they are trialing. If you feel that more pressure was put on your dog than the other contestants and if the evaluator don't catch it as you see it, then you file a complaint. The complaint will go before a board and the desission will be made there. You will have to put $ up and if you are ruled to be in the right, the money will go back to you. If you are wrong the money will be lost.

At training if the handler is a butt and acts like Mike has said then reality must set in for the handler. He is living in a fairy tale if he thinks is dog is all that and more. ( Granted some dogs are ) If the dog is then the decoy and all others will give respect where respect is due.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

The term decoy is often used, but I like helper in the training context and then decoy in trial or test situation because that gives a good indication of what is expected. The worst thing to do in a club or training situation is let everyone ''take a bite''. Being a good helper to bring out the best in a dog is an art. When you let anyone work your dog problems are sure to arise.
As far as egos go most handlers think highly of their dogs, but I agree with what a few posters have said here. Real tough dogs that won't back down are not as frequent as the owners think. Ask Stewart Hilliard about backing a tough dog !
Mike


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## Clark Niemitalo (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm not totaly sure where any of this is going or where it started. But here is my out look on trial work and training work..

As far as trial work i have one roll to test and show accurately to the judge your dog and your training..As far as lower level trials this will still be shown but hopefully without a blow up..At regional or higher I have a job and rules to go by that is that..Now different helpers show different traits I play in a realm of a test through pressure emotional and physical according to the rules if your dog runs i fell bad but i don't change my work..The judge is the only one who can do this..I also have worked from club to world level events with no complaints from the judge..

As far as training my goal is to be a sparing partner who creates a dog that is sure and powerful..Also showing numerous enviormental changes that are not in my venue..So the dog is overly prepared to what will happen..

A strong dog is only as good as it is prepared, And That is That..

Ask Mike Tyson his down fall was training and preperation without these he becam a DUD, As do many good dogs in the world..

Clark Niemitalo


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

I've been blessed to work with some very nice helpers in the short time I've been doing Schutzhund.
The helper from our last trial, Ken Stupak, pushed a little too hard on my pup. 
He mistakenly assumed she was older (and more mature) than she was, and *almost* shut her down.
He immediately saw that it was too much for the dog, stopped, and asked how old she was.
Then he realized, oops. Perhaps this 6 month old puppy isn't ready for this much defense.

He brought her right back up, and no real harm was done. But Ken is a great helper.

If someone is pressuring your dog too hard, intentionally or mistakenly, just stop.
Call the dog off, reel 'em in, whatever. 
I'd rather leave the dog wanting more, than have it crushed by a helper who is out to ruin the dog.

Explain your expectations re: how hard your dog will be pushed during the current training.
If the helper doesn't agree, then I guess your dog is done with that helper.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Ultimately it's your dog, your desicion. A good TD and decoy/helper will help you get the most out of your dog. But, it's up to you to find the "fortitude" to tell them to stop when your not comfortable with where your dog is going.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I have never had it happen but if I saw something that didn't look/feel right, I'd heel my dog right out of there and back to the car. Return to the decoy and ask WTF? If I didn't get a good answer I'd not be back. I'm a person that has gone to other clubs and different venues. Generally new decoys will do as Gillian (I think) said and ask about where the dog is and then feel him out on a few bites and add a little more pressure to see if the dog can take it. Mostly I feel my dog doesn't get worked hard enough because people are too cautious or can't read a dog well enough. I visit one ring club and they visit our field too but I have to laugh inwardly when they "catch" my dog because that's about all they do is catch him, no real work or pressure but after watching their club dogs, I know why that is. 

I hear alot of horror stories from the mid west or back east and think the trainers out here are very cautious not to do that kind of stuff or screw a dog up. Less civil and slower paced from my experience, my dogs come from the mid west and I know alot of dog people out that way and seemed to "notice" a difference by video and conversation, in how hard and fast dogs are pushed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I visit one ring club and they visit our field too but I have to laugh inwardly when they "catch" my dog because that's about all they do is catch him, no real work or pressure but after watching their club dogs, I know why that is. 

Then again, you are a visitor. Making a dog look bad does not win you any friends. Maybe all their dogs are goofy, but what would you rather have, a decoy that catches your dog, and he wins, or a decoy that goes out of his way to make your dog a mess, to satisfy his own ego ???

I think if you ever come across one of these guys, you will appreciate what they have done for you.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I visit one ring club and they visit our field too but I have to laugh inwardly when they "catch" my dog because that's about all they do is catch him, no real work or pressure but after watching their club dogs, I know why that is.
> 
> Then again, you are a visitor. Making a dog look bad does not win you any friends. Maybe all their dogs are goofy, but what would you rather have, a decoy that catches your dog, and he wins, or a decoy that goes out of his way to make your dog a mess, to satisfy his own ego ???
> 
> I think if you ever come across one of these guys, you will appreciate what they have done for you.


Well they always ask how we want them to work the dog because we are after all, in different venues but they also do some PSA trials and know what is expected. I think they are just accustomed to working their own club dogs and that is what they fall back on. Not to mention their breed of choice is a "crapster" at this stuff and needs all the help it can get to squeek by. I think people get used to that and don't know how to really put pressure on a dog. Need I say more than the word Bulldog?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Oh and by the way, I always appretiate someone new working my dog. I know it's hard work and often hot dirty work around here.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

What's the story with bulldog?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Harder to find a good Bulldog than a hairy pointy eared dog. I'm sure you know the challenges faced, since you own Rotts? Dobies, are the same way. If someone has a good one, they aren't inclined to give it up. They are just harder to come by than nice Mals/Dutchies/GSD's.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Michael Santana said:


> Ultimately it's your dog, your desicion. A good TD and decoy/helper will help you get the most out of your dog. But, it's up to you to find the "fortitude" to tell them to stop when your not comfortable with where your dog is going.


I agree totally with Michael. If you don't like what's goin on with your dog, stop it and talk to the helper. Helpers are there to bring out the best in your dog (along with the handler). Helpers/decoys have a tough job, you have to deal with the dog, the handler, & the TD. You have to work many different dogs and test each individual dog, but also help him, and have to be able to read the dog to see where to go next. Not to mention most importantly to catch the dog safely. Unless you are on the receiving end of that mouth, it's hard to criticize. 

But yeah, a training helper should help the dog get the next level. A trial decoy should presure and test the dog at the level it's in.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

True Alex. This is another way to look at it.

New handlers read a lot and that's good. But to tell a T/D what he wants done, come on. They need to sit down and talk. Each explain.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*First and foremost, the dog is YOURS!* If you don't like the way things go on a club level, ask in a reasonable manner. There is NEVER a cookie cutter approach to working dogs, like teaching kids, all are different. As trial helpers, the job is to test the dog, all dogs, using the same degree of pressure. 

I know some folks who roll the sleeve and cause the dog to get a crap bite. This is a little dirty trick which is also used by others to make you stay with them and train, bleeding your butt. < Decoy rolls the sleeve and dog gets a bad bite> See, now we can fix that. Seconds later, better sleeve, better bite....Smoke and mirrors, BS we call it!!!!!!!


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Interesting Howard, thanks.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I wanted to add that from time to time our different helpers work the dogs (we have 3 helpers). I have found that it is really important to discuss the session with them before hand and then if my session isn't going the way I like it. I will instruct the helper very briefly to do something simple so I can end it with the dog wining. 

Many times I will take my dog out after a very short session if everything is perfect. Less is more and I see no reason to keep working on something that is good. 

Don't try to fix something that isn't broken & less is more are 2 things that a wise man once told me. Thanks Lucillano, If you happen to read this.

Often times I see green club members who just want to keep going when they are gaining nothing other than their dog getting lots of free bites and getting gassed. Always ask your self what you want to accomplish and keep it simple (same as OB- chain it togther when they are ready).

I had a green helper try to drive my husbands some what nervy defensive(retired bulldog) for about 30-40 ft. Very stupid macho guy thing. It was ugly and I screamed at him. The dog is already defensive and you just had to try and show the dog..... The dumbass almost took a nice bite to the face after the out. I swear from then on this dog was looking for this guy everytime he hit the field. He left the club- thankfully. 

While I appreciate helpers- not everyone has a natural ability/strength to read/react to various dogs ..... and this guy didn't- he tried to impress us all but failed. It is not something you can just study- I think you either have it or you don't. My husband doesn't have it. He will wear a sleeve anytime, but has no clue. He has taken many bites & slips from a bark and hold but I would be hard pressed to ever let him work any of my dogs or any one elses for that matter. Bless his heart for picking up poo, feeding, biking and bathing them though =D>


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

LOL Julie, that's too bad about the husband! Your so right about some people reading the dogs and others, not so much. I "tell" Luc nothing, I just show up and do what he says. Once in awhile I 'll "ask" him if we can do something or another and he will either say OK or no, I don't think your dogs ready for that. Either way, he can explain to me why (so it makes sense to my peabrain) and I trust him because I know damn well he knows what my dog can or can't take. Usually both of us are yelling "give him more!" Our best decoys split (work, babies and the economy) the rest are not as confident in their abilities. They are very young, it shows and the dogs know. Sometimes I get frustraited and feel my dog isn't getting worked hard enough, then Luc will throw his suit on and give him the last session of the day. 

It is frutraiting though to drive all the way to a different club and not have them work the dog, how you would have liked. ](*,) Can't help but feel like I wasted my gas and the day.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i have to say that i find emilio's question kinda wierd--he's a trainer, he "knows" what it takes to run a dog, right? so why's he asking? just to find out what handlers will tolerate bf they cry "stop"? i'm certainly not trying to pick a fight, but i don't get the point.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Ann,
That's because Emilio isn't a trainer. He brags about having 20 years working dogs but from the last video submitted I doubt that, or he has been doing it wrong for 20 years!
Mike


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Now Mike, he was just a confused trainer which produced dogs just like him. The apple don't fall far from the tree. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

ouch!](*,)


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I see some are finally getting it.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

It got to the point to where I didn't even post on some of his stuff. He alawys started off with some good questions but HE always had all the answers, His 20 years of training lead me to believe he was just wanting to start something. That he did well.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

At first I found him a bit entertaining, but that wore off quick!


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Man I hate that I missed all of this stuff before Emilio was banned. At least I made his list before he left, I betcha Jeff was the first one on there though.  I figured out a while back that it wasn't even worth my time to respond to any of his nonsense. Anyway, who has something actually worth talking about. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> ... Anyway, who has something actually worth talking about. LOL


Jay least you forget, I have been the target of many "good" points of conversation! LOL That's right, it's all good! :mrgreen:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

So, the great Oz has been banned? That'll save on bandwidth.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

=D> =D> =D> 

Here, at least.


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